# Lost 3/25 "He's Our You" (Spoilers!)



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

So....... the island does heal people.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I was laughing out loud the exact same amount as Sayid when he said that the guy had used exactly the right amount of the drug to get him to talk.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Damn this show is good. I loved how Sayid was begging for the next flight. And the ending: holy sh1t!!!


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## Unseen Llama (Nov 29, 2005)

I'm from the future!


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

I just don't buy that Sayid, a professional killer, who finally decides to kill Ben, shoots him once then runs off into the woods without checking for a pulse or shooting him in the head!


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## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> Damn this show is good. I loved how Sayid was begging for the next flight. And the ending: holy sh1t!!!


Yeah, I really hope Lost isn't going to go all BSG on us and start making crap up as they go, because it seems as if they're making more loose ends than tying them up.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Unseen Llama said:


> I'm from the future!


"So tell me, future boy, who's the president in 1985?"


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Killing Ben was telegraphed way early for me though. Why when I see Hurly in an apron do I see this guy?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Again, like last thread, I plan to think about both possibilities - things having just changed, and things not having changed at all.

If nothing just changed and Ben always sent a flaming bus into a building as a kid, there's not too much to talk about - we'll see later that the island heals Ben (Ben shot Locke in the where-his-kidney-woulda-been area and Locke lived, Ben could just as easily live on the island) , and the Dharma people help heal him.. Ben goes back to the Dharma camp, so he can grow up and be a part of the Purge.

On the other hand, if things did just change (breaking the universe), then let's follow that out (pretty close to a scenario someone posted at the end of the last thread):

Ben dies.
Ben never kidnaps Alex.
Danielle doesn't feel the need to leave, so doesn't change the radio tower message.
Ben's not around to talk the Others into moving into Dharmaville, so it lies in ruins.
Ben never tricks Widmore into leaving the island.. Widmore remains the leader.
Ben doesn't have Goodwin killed (but, that was where Goodwin's path ended, so Goodwin still probably dies, according to what we've seen).
Ben never helps the others find the Swan.
Libby lives.
Annalucia lives.
(except again, they probably die)
It doesn't matter that Ben isn't able to help people back to the island, because people wouldn't get off of the island.. they only got off because a freighter came to get Ben (sent by Widmore), but Widmore is on the island, so no freighter. No O6.
Ben's not drooling over Juliete.
Ben never turns the wheel.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So are the rules laid out by Farraday still true? What happened always already happen?

Did Sayid always shoot young Ben and that was part of Ben's life? And obviously Ben survived. 

Or was Farraday wrong and did they change the past?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

scottykempf said:


> "So tell me, future boy, who's the president in 1985?"


LOL that's just what I thought!

And Hurley's apron dharma 'station' had a little chef's hat and fork and knife I think.

I did get bothered by Sawyer and his allowing the torture and more to happen. He seemed like he had more control over everyone and then poof it's gone. He should have just hammered redzenski in the face a few times.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I wish Sawyer had asked Juliet/Jack or Kate for some thoughts on the Sayid thing. I thought that was what he was going to do when he knocked on Kate's door. They could have hid Sayid at Jack's or even Sawyers for a little while.

The torture guy - What did he give Sayid? was it the same thing that Locke gave Boone? Also, did you notice he was in a teepee similiar to what Locke had when he lived on the commune?


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

I think Sayid always shot Ben, but he eventually lives. The trauma of that betrayal ultimately turns Ben into who we see all grown up.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

brermike said:


> I think Sayid always shot Ben, but he eventually lives. The trauma of that betrayal ultimately turns Ben into who we see all grown up.


Along with all the crap his dad gave him and the acceptance Ben finds when joining with Richard.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

betts4 said:


> I wish Sawyer had asked Juliet/Jack or Kate for some thoughts on the Sayid thing. I thought that was what he was going to do when he knocked on Kate's door. They could have hid Sayid at Jack's or even Sawyers for a little while.
> 
> The torture guy - What did he give Sayid? was it the same thing that Locke gave Boone? Also, did you notice he was in a teepee similiar to what Locke had when he lived on the commune?


I believe it was LSD.


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## rufus_x_s (Jul 14, 2004)

betts4 said:


> I wish Sawyer had asked Juliet/Jack or Kate for some thoughts on the Sayid thing. I thought that was what he was going to do when he knocked on Kate's door.


I think he was going in that direction but the flaming bus interrupted his research.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I still think Sayid always shot Ben too. By trying to prevent Ben from becoming who he is, Sayid actually directly caused it..

I don't really understand Ben's dealings with Sayid in 2004 though. I guess 2004 Ben accepts that Sayid is going to live and go back and shoot him- kind of like Locke knew he needed the pain...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Briefly back to stuff from last week's thread, damn, I agree, the sound of the numbers 23 and 42 on the beach with Danielle over the radio VERY much sound like Hurley.. Then the sound of the numbers while 316 is crashing (they only play 4 8 15 16) sound definitely NOT like Hurley (I think more like the voice of the word "iteration" between Danielle's initial broadcast repeats). I kiiiiiinda hear how someone could think the numbers in the airplane sounded like Pierre, but only slightly.

Ok.. back to tonight's episode.. Just gonna start the re-watch now, since Laurie's snoring on the couch next to me.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

brermike said:


> I believe it was LSD.


They hint at that sure, but that doesn't hold up against the belief they had that Sayid would tell the truth.

LSD doesn't, in any shape way or form, influence your truth telling.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

And Ben told Sayid that Locke was murdered....and that the murders could find him too. Haha. Ben has a good poker face.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

betts4 said:


> And Ben told Sayid that Locke was murdered....and that the murders could find him too. Haha. Ben has a good poker face.


Well the coolest part is that when he tells him "you're a _killer_, Sayid!", he remembers having been _*shot by him*_!

What happened, happened.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> Well the coolest part is that when he tells him "you're a _killer_, Sayid!", he remembers having been _*shot by him*_!
> 
> What happened, happened.


Exactly! Awesome stuff. I doubt it was planned out this much but Ben's creepy final look to Sayid in One of Them could be a look of recognition


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I think when Ben was trying to get the Oceanic Six back together to go to the Island, he always knew who would be there. He was probably surprised Sun was on the plane, I'll bet, since he didn't see her back in 77.

EDIT: for those Losties with perfect recall, did Ben try very hard to get Sun on that flight?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I loved when Sayid saw who was on the plane and asked for another flight. That was a chuckle.


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## toddvj (Apr 22, 2004)

betts4 said:


> And Ben told Sayid that Locke was murdered....and that the murders could find him too. Haha. Ben has a good poker face.


Well, it _was_ true. He said if I found you they can, too. He just didn't mention that they and I were the same.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

SeanC said:


> They hint at that sure, but that doesn't hold up against the belief they had that Sayid would tell the truth.
> 
> LSD doesn't, in any shape way or form, influence your truth telling.


Although it was actually used as a "truth serum" back in the day.

I think sayid just didn't care, he probably figured it didn't matter.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Gunnyman said:


> Killing Ben was telegraphed way early for me though.


The idea that he might was certainly telegraphed. I wasn't sure he'd actually go through with it until he did it.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> So are the rules laid out by Farraday still true? What happened always already happen?
> 
> Did Sayid always shoot young Ben and that was part of Ben's life? And obviously Ben survived.
> 
> Or was Farraday wrong and did they change the past?





brermike said:


> I think Sayid always shot Ben, but he eventually lives. The trauma of that betrayal ultimately turns Ben into who we see all grown up.





jkeegan said:


> Well the coolest part is that when he tells him "you're a _killer_, Sayid!", he remembers having been _*shot by him*_!
> 
> What happened, happened.


I don't really need to say anything else, just that these three posts perfectly encapsulates my thinking. Sayid is the one that turns Ben into who he is. The shooting was definitely shocking. I was not expecting that to happen, just the gun misfiring, etc.

I think once young Ben gets up and realizes he was just SHOT AND SURVIVED, he'll start thinking he's special, just like Locke does with his paralysis healed and coming back from the dead. So this sends Ben on the odyssey where he becomes the adult he does.

For those of you who are keeping track of time, according to Ben, the visit between Richard and him happened in 1973.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

hefe said:


> The idea that he might was certainly telegraphed. I wasn't sure he'd actually go through with it until he did it.


How do you know he killed him? Or do you mean "attempt to kill him"


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

hefe said:


> The idea that he might was certainly telegraphed. I wasn't sure he'd actually go through with it until he did it.


Agreed. When they intro'd 12-year-old Ben last week, I figured Sayid would be tempted to kill him. Never in a million years did I think Sayid would actually pull the trigger though.

Not sure how I feel about this turn of events (with regards to the larger mythology/story arc). It might pan out well, I suppose, but being that Sayid was (is?) such a sympathetic, popular character with the audience gotta wonder how folks will turn on him after he shoots a kid. I certainly think of Sayid differently now. (and yes, I realize that's kinda the point.)

Props to the writers for being ballsy though...


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## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

Oh boy! The space time continuum is really frakked now!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> So are the rules laid out by Farraday still true? What happened always already happen?
> 
> Did Sayid always shoot young Ben and that was part of Ben's life? And obviously Ben survived.
> 
> Or was Farraday wrong and did they change the past?


I've always been suspicious that Faraday just said what he did to control Sawyer, and doesn't really know any "rules."


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Two things. First, Ben must despise Sayid. This will make it interesting to go back and watchtheir early interactions. If there are clues there - then we pretty much have proof that the writers planned things WAY ahead. 

Second - on getting shot. What did Jack do the operation on Ben for? Could it be related?


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> Although it was actually used as a "truth serum" back in the day.
> 
> I think sayid just didn't care, he probably figured it didn't matter.


The CIA experimented with LSD in the 50's and abandoned at as a truth serum for much the same reason as torture. Any information obtained by both methods was entirely suspect, it could be true, or it could be complete garbage. So if they were trying to use that old saw of the CIA using LSD as a truth serum they were 25 years late, even in 77.

i thought Sayid saying that he was from the future was brilliant.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

mostman said:


> Two things. First, Ben must despise Sayid. This will make it interesting to go back and watchtheir early interactions. If there are clues there - then we pretty much have proof that the writers planned things WAY ahead.
> 
> Second - on getting shot. What did Jack do the operation on Ben for? Could it be related?


Hunh I forgot about that. It was a tumor on his spinal column. I don't think being shot could have anything to do with that, but I really don't know.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> How do you know he killed him? Or do you mean "attempt to kill him"


Of course. Whether he succeeded or not, he took the actual action to kill him.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

hanumang said:


> Not sure how I feel about this turn of events (with regards to the larger mythology/story arc). It might pan out well, I suppose, but being that Sayid was (is?) such a sympathetic, popular character with the audience gotta wonder how folks will turn on him after he shoots a kid. I certainly think of Sayid differently now. (and yes, I realize that's kinda the point.)
> 
> Props to the writers for being ballsy though...


I agree 100%. Sayid shooting young Ben is one of the greatest TV moments of recent memory for me. Where the writers take it from here, is either going to be wicked awesome, or complete crap. I'm rooting for the former of course.


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

I knew Ben was going to get shot I just didn't think it would be this episode. I figured they'd save that for the end of the season.

I agree that it will be interesting to see Ben and Sayid's early interactions in Season 2, but I don't think the writers planned this event anytime before last year. In their first interaction, Sayid tortured Ben (when Ben was pretending to be a balloonist named Henry Gale).


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

And Ben let Sayid have one hell of a glare when Sayid got done torturing him in S2. Could read a lot into that. I like the fact that Sayid's words on the pier came true - "If I see you again, it will be unpleasant for us both." Nailed that one, Sayid!

Obviously, Ben survives. He made the mistake of shooting him in the heart.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

zync said:


> Yeah, I really hope Lost isn't going to go all BSG on us and start making crap up as they go, because it seems as if they're making more loose ends than tying them up.


There's still a season and a half left, man.



hanumang said:


> Agreed. When they intro'd 12-year-old Ben last week, I figured Sayid would be tempted to kill him. Never in a million years did I think Sayid would actually pull the trigger though...


Question: outside of 70s exploitation movies or Troma movies, when have you ever seen a kid shot and killed? I'm serious here. Typically if someone's threatening to kill a kid, either you know the kid won't be killed, or it will happen offscreen. They didn't show any blood, of course, and it was set up as a surprise to us (he looked like he wasn't shot, then he fell over). Kudos to both the show and ABC for having the guts to show it happen for the sake of storytelling.

167.5 hours... the wait after the season finale's gonna suck.

Greg


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Kamakzie said:


> Oh boy! The space time continuum is really frakked now!


Ha!
My reaction was similar after seeing the last scene as in, "Well, that's not good".

A well done episode. By saving the Sayid flashbacks up until, we get to see all the pieces of the puzzle that drive him to shoot young Ben.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

Was that torture guy the guy who used to play Larry on the Bob Newhart show? ("Hi I'm Larry, this is my brother Darrell, and this is my other brother Darrell.") He sure sounded like him.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

appleye1 said:


> Was that torture guy the guy who used to play Larry on the Bob Newhart show? ("Hi I'm Larry, this is my brother Darrell, and this is my other brother Darrell.") He sure sounded like him.


Yes, that was William Sanderson.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

betts4 said:


> The torture guy - What did he give Sayid? was it the same thing that Locke gave Boone? Also, did you notice he was in a teepee similiar to what Locke had when he lived on the commune?


Clearly, you've never dropped acid. Or perhaps you can't remember doing it 

I think Sayid did kill Ben. Wasn't the book he got from him in the cell a clue? "An alternate reality" or something?


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

appleye1 said:


> Was that torture guy the guy who used to play Larry on the Bob Newhart show? ("Hi I'm Larry, this is my brother Darrell, and this is my other brother Darrell.") He sure sounded like him.


No, it was J.F. Sebastian.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Clearly, you've never dropped acid. Or perhaps you can't remember doing it
> 
> I think Sayid did kill Ben. Wasn't the book he got from him in the cell a clue? "An alternate reality" or something?


Carlos Casteneda's _A Separate Reality_ was the book. I've not read it and I'm sure I'm butchering the summary, but it says it deals with peyote and using other narco-type substances to deal with reality. Makes you wonder if Sayid doing what he did was real, or an after effect of the drug he took.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

On second thought, scratch that. Sayid shooting Ben in a drug dream would be incredibly lame.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

SeanC said:


> i thought Sayid saying that he was from the future was brilliant.


Good thing that Radzinsky was so eager to disbelieve Sayid! "_Ask Sawyer_"!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

By the way, not that they'll pay much attention to it now, but Sayid just told them almost everything! If they ever have reason to think about it (Radzinsky will have lots of time in the Swan to contemplate it, and Horace is spending time thinking about things), they know (and could write down) that Oceanic flight 815 would someday arrive, as would Ajira flight 316. I gotta rewatch that scene (didn't make it far through my rewatch before I fell asleep).


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## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

Don't forget that we had a glimpse of Faraday working below ground at the Orchid earlier this season (alongside Candle/Chang). They had discovered the magical time wheel on the other side of the rock.

We don't know when this happened, other than in the 1970's (we don't know for sure it was 1977). Maybe Faraday was looking to knock the wheel one last time to get them out of 1977, or perhaps undo things that shouldn't have happened in 1977.

We still don't really know where Faraday is in 1977.

I guess we'll figure out what happened to Ben when we revisit Locke in 2008. The events of _The Life and Death Of Jeremy Bentham_ are chronologically the last we've seen of Ben.

He was in the infirmary. Was this because he was taken out by Sun with the oar, or because his timeline had changed unexpectedly?

Maybe Ben "lives" in 2008, but not able to wake up. John unearths evidence that Ben was killed when he was 12... and goes on another quest because "it wasn't supposed to happen this way" kind of thing.

Of course, guessing where the writers are going has never paid off for me.


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## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

I thought Sayid was going to try to alter the future by killing Ben's father...once he'd witnessed how his father's abuse turned Ben into who/what he became. What if Ben had been given the opportunity to grow up as a normal child? I guess Sayid decided it was better to take the more direct route and not take the chance that Ben would grow up to be a murdering, lying sociopath anyway!

(Unless he really is one of the "good guys" of course!)


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

scottykempf said:


> I just don't buy that Sayid, a professional killer, who finally decides to kill Ben, shoots him once then runs off into the woods without checking for a pulse or shooting him in the head!


Or that he gets taken down while going down.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

gchance said:


> ...he looked like he wasn't shot...


Except for the hole in his chest.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I've never cared for Sayid's flashbacks--pre-island flashbacks anyway. It was interesting, though, that this one paralleled Eko's flashback when he shot the man so that his brother wouldn't have to.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I'm glad Kate found her island makeup kit. Or maybe she's just getting more sleep. Whatever. She looked better.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Cute.


> http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=110449
> The painted window above the entrance to the building Sayid runs out of after killing the "briber" reads "олдхэм фармасьютикалс." ...If you transliterate the Cyrillic lettering into English lettering it reads "Oldham Pharmaceuticals,"


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

I too was shocked that he actually shot little Ben and that they showed it. This show has pushed the envelope in so many ways. I still think that when Keamy killed Alex last season that was more shocking because it wasn't built up like this was.

So the woman on the plane with Sayid was a bounty hunter and not a cop. Thats very interesting to me. Can bounty hunters escort people in handcuffs like that? I mean she isn't really law enforcement.

I also found it cool that it was total coincidence (or fate) that they ended up on Ajira 316 (or Ben was the architect of that whole thing).

Anybody else catch that Sayid was drinking the McCutchen scotch at the bar?

Did anybody else notice that there were no "whooosh" sounds when switching between scenes?


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Like the rest, I was blown away by the last scene where Sayid shot Ben. It completely took me by surprise.

So now we have two scenarios: 
1. Ben survives (much as Locke did) but being shot contributes to the metamorphosis from child to the adult Ben.
2. Ben is now dead. Which creates some conundrum.

I keep coming back to the observations a few episodes ago about the sad state of Dharmaville in the present timeline with Sun and Lapidis. That's really pulling me towards option 2.

In any case, I highly doubt that it was done in BSG style because "it sounded cool". I feel fairly confident it was planned for the season, with a resolution in mind. At least, I hope!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

danplaysbass said:


> So the woman on the plane with Sayid was a bounty hunter and not a cop. Thats very interesting to me. Can bounty hunters escort people in handcuffs like that? I mean she isn't really law enforcement.


We don't know what she is. Sayid asked if she were a bounty hunter and she didn't answer.


Big_Daddy said:


> In any case, I highly doubt that it was done in BSG style because "it sounded cool". I feel fairly confident it was planned for the season, with a resolution in mind. At least, I hope!


Oh, I don't think it's for the season--I think this is something (at least in general) that has been planned all along. I think this is the key moment of the entire series. I think whatever the Losties learn about the consequences of this event will take us into the home stretch.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

betts4 said:


> LOL that's just what I thought!
> 
> And Hurley's apron dharma 'station' had a little chef's hat and fork and knife I think.
> 
> I did get bothered by Sawyer and his allowing the torture and more to happen. He seemed like he had more control over everyone and then poof it's gone. He should have just hammered redzenski in the face a few times.


Go back to the beginning of the series......when we found "adam and eve" in the caves.....Did they have Dharma uniforms on? Even if not, could they in fact have been two of the current "leaders" of the Othervilles....Radzinski, Horace.....etc? Perhaps Sawyer/Lafleur and whomever kill them (or just make them disappear).

Of course, if "things have changed" then our Losties are stuck in the 1970's timeline....maybe Adam and Eve are in fact two of our Losties having died in the caves......



mostman said:


> Two things. First, Ben must despise Sayid. This will make it interesting to go back and watchtheir early interactions. If there are clues there - then we pretty much have proof that the writers planned things WAY ahead.
> 
> Second - on getting shot. What did Jack do the operation on Ben for? Could it be related?


That very well could be the case..........


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## acej80 (Jan 19, 2003)

danplaysbass said:


> So the woman on the plane with Sayid was a bounty hunter and not a cop. Thats very interesting to me. Can bounty hunters escort people in handcuffs like that? I mean she isn't really law enforcement.
> 
> I also found it cool that it was total coincidence (or fate) that they ended up on Ajira 316 (or Ben was the architect of that whole thing).


I believe she is working for Ben and this was all planned. In the beginning of last weeks episode, when the ajira flight was going thru the flashes, the camera panned across her face, and she had this very calm look to her face, like "Ahh, it's starting to happen, good".


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

Great Episode.

If young Ben survives the gunshot, I don't think it was totally only that Sayid shot him to turn diabolical. Remember when he told Sayid to be patient? That was totally the Ben we know as an adult.

What I like about this show is that I am not sure whether young Ben survives or not, but I have complete faith in the fact the writers have an idea they are pursuing and it will work out and I will be satisfied. This is probably the only show I can remember where I can say that.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MasterCephus said:


> What I like about this show is that I am not sure whether young Ben survives or not, but I have complete faith in the fact the writers have an idea they are pursuing and it will work out and I will be satisfied. This is probably the only show I can remember where I can say that.


Yeah...I have my theories, and I feel strongly about them, but I have complete confidence that if I'm wrong, whatever is right will be right.

If you know what I mean...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah...I have my theories, and I feel strongly about them, but I have complete confidence that if I'm wrong, whatever is right will be right.
> 
> If you know what I mean...


Damn that's such a great post that I wanted to reply to it just so its words were duplicated.. Agreed 100% with MasterCephus and Rob's expression of this trust..


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Fool Me Twice said:


>


Awesome, didn't catch that at all (although I did wonder at the time what it said). Knowing that the bribe-guy was Larry/Sebastian drug-guy makes me wonder exactly who the guy on the golf course was... and if we saw the woman who works at the meat market before either.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Awesome, didn't catch that at all (although I did wonder at the time what it said). Knowing that the bribe-guy was Larry/Sebastian drug-guy makes me wonder exactly who the guy on the golf course was... and if we saw the woman who works at the meat market before either.


The russian briber was what?


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

I think Ben survived the bullet. Maybe it lodged in his spine, giving him the problems that Jack had to fix later/earlier?


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

TonyTheTiger said:


> I think Ben survived the bullet. Maybe it lodged in his spine, giving him the problems that Jack had to fix later/earlier?


Wasn't that cancer? I guess lead could do that.
However, if the island does cure certain people, and he's got no scars on his chest, why would his spine would still be messed up. I still say he's dead (in THIS particular timeline, naturally). 
By the way, future episode titles COULD confirm this.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

gchance said:


> Question: outside of 70s exploitation movies or Troma movies, when have you ever seen a kid shot and killed? I'm serious here.


Yeah, pretty rare, but some other occurrences...


Spoiler



Once Upon a Time in the West - a father's three children are gunned down

Pan's Labyrinth - the child protaganist is shot and killed at the end of the film.

The Grey Zone - a fleeing jewish girl is shot in the back by a german officer after same officer tells her she's free to run away.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Jeeters said:


> Yeah, pretty rare, but some other occurrences...
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


+ Schindler's List and many other conc. camp / WWII movies.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

hanumang said:


> Not sure how I feel about this turn of events (with regards to the larger mythology/story arc). It might pan out well, I suppose, but being that Sayid was (is?) such a sympathetic, popular character with the audience gotta wonder how folks will turn on him after he shoots a kid.


Popular, very much. Sympathetic? Hardly. He was a torturer and a killer before this, and seemed to have a very pragmatic attitude about it. This didn't change my perception of Sayid at all. He did, once again, what he felt he had to do.



betts4 said:


> I did get bothered by Sawyer and his allowing the torture and more to happen. He seemed like he had more control over everyone and then poof it's gone. He should have just hammered redzenski in the face a few times.


Sawyer practically begged Sayid to go along with his plan, at least twice. Sayid refused. Sawyer explained the consequences that it would have, and Sayid still refused and accepted those consequences. I think Sawyer did exactly what he could do in order not to blow his cover. Remember also, Sayid and Sawyer didn't really have the coziest of relationships on the island before....

Awesome episode.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I will be very disapointed and think it will be extremely lame if Ben is dead, I'm actually surprised how many of you actually think this is the case. 

I keep watching this show because I feel there is a continuity with all the actions taking place and that they are playing by some "rules", if Ben is dead then it doesn't really matter where the show goes from here, and I will not be able to watch with the same excitement I have been.

Anyhow, with that said, I think it is impossible that he is dead...


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

There aren't many of the maddening "Why didn't he/she tell anybody else that crucial nugget of information?" instances this season (at least this half season). They're telling the story without making my head explode.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

vertigo235 said:


> I will be very disapointed and think it will be extremely lame if Ben is dead, I'm actually surprised how many of you actually think this is the case.
> 
> I keep watching this show because I feel there is a continuity with all the actions taking place and that they are playing by some "rules", if Ben is dead then it doesn't really matter where the show goes from here, and I will not be able to watch with the same excitement I have been.
> 
> Anyhow, with that said, I think it is impossible that he is dead...


There is no chance he's dead. If they wanted us to think he was dead, Sayid would have shot him in the head or broken his neck or done some variation of murder that would be convincing enough so not make us think he wasn't dead. I am still looking at it like the Michael Syndrome. Michael couldn't kill himself because he hadn't DONE what he was "supposed" to DO.

Where's the suspense if Sayid had tried to shoot him in the head and the gun had jammed? Or if he had gone to break his neck and a coconut fell on his head at the last second and knocked him out?

I agree Vertigo to an extent. If kid-Ben IS dead and doesn't come back to life, they need to have a fantastic explanation ready to serve up on a platter immediately. But he isn't dead, so it doesn't matter.

So we've seen how Sayid got to the plane. Now let's see how Ben did. (Moment of silence for Penny?)


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> The russian briber was what?


I took it from the previous post that the russian briber was the same guy who drugged Sayid in the woods.



MickeS said:


> Sawyer practically begged Sayid to go along with his plan, at least twice. Sayid refused. Sawyer explained the consequences that it would have, and Sayid still refused and accepted those consequences. I think Sawyer did exactly what he could do in order not to blow his cover. Remember also, Sayid and Sawyer didn't really have the coziest of relationships on the island before....


Yeah, specifically, _Sayid actually tortured Sawyer_.


----------



## obixman (Sep 7, 2004)

One thing that jarred me a little was seeing Sawyer Tase Sayid.

I don't think Tasers were around in 1977 (certainly not in general use...), and although Sawyer may know about them in general, would be know enough to build one? And if he did, would the Dahrma group accept one.


It just jarred me a little.


----------



## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Popular, very much. Sympathetic? Hardly. He was a torturer and a killer before this, and seemed to have a very pragmatic attitude about it. This didn't change my perception of Sayid at all. He did, once again, what he felt he had to do.


Well, when I wrote sympathetic I was thinking of him seeing Nadia again at the end of last season. Or did you not feel anything?  I thought it was the highlight of the finale. 

Of course there were other moments that tip the writers' hand when it comes to how they want us to feel about Sayid. The Shannon arc, the personal assistant from The Economist, even the 'bounty hunter' in this episode. Hell, the backstory of how he became a torturer, I feel, even attempted to make him sympathetic.

I understand why you disagree, just figured I should explain myself...


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> I took it from the previous post that the russian briber was the same guy who drugged Sayid in the woods.
> 
> Yeah, specifically, _Sayid actually tortured Sawyer_.


I'm going to have to see a screen shot comparison. I don't remember them looking anything alike.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> I took it from the previous post that the russian briber was the same guy who drugged Sayid in the woods.


No. Different guys.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

jradford said:


> I'm going to have to see a screen shot comparison. I don't remember them looking anything alike.


Russian
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0099228/

Deadwood dude
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0761836/


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jradford said:


> There is no chance he's dead. If they wanted us to think he was dead, Sayid would have shot him in the head or broken his neck or done some variation of murder that would be convincing enough so not make us think he wasn't dead. I am still looking at it like the Michael Syndrome. Michael couldn't kill himself because he hadn't DONE what he was "supposed" to DO.


But if Sayid being able to kill Ben is a symptom of the universe being broken (by the Incident and the Hatch-Blow and their consequences) and desperately needing to be fixed, then it would work for me.

It would also explain the abandoned Dharma village, which we know wasn't abandoned.

Given next week's episode title...


Spoiler



"What Happened, Happened"


 ...I suspect some light will be shed upon this issue sooner rather than later.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

obixman said:


> One thing that jarred me a little was seeing Sawyer Tase Sayid.
> 
> I don't think Tasers were around in 1977 (certainly not in general use...), and although Sawyer may know about them in general, would be know enough to build one? And if he did, would the Dahrma group accept one.
> 
> It just jarred me a little.


According to Wiki, "Jack Cover, a NASA researcher, began developing the Taser in 1969. By 1974, Cover had completed the device, which he named for his childhood hero Tom Swift."

I can accept that Dharma had one, even if not in general use.


----------



## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

JYoung said:


> Yes, that was William Sanderson.


Another Lost/True Blood crossover.

Sanderson is Sheriff Dearborne on True Blood.

Michael Emerson's real life wife (who played his birth mother Emily Linus on Lost "The Man Behind the Curtain") is Carrie Preston who is a waitress (Arlene) on True Blood.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

One of the things that's out of the control of the writers is the availability of the actors.
I wonder if they originally were going to have Ekko kill for Ben and then try to kill Ben as a kid, before the actor decided he hated Hawaii.. (what with the similarities in his backstory of killing for someone else, as was mentioned earlier in the thread)


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Ben is not dead. I don't think he can be.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But if Sayid being able to kill Ben is a symptom of the universe being broken (by the Incident and the Hatch-Blow and their consequences) and desperately needing to be fixed, then it would work for me.
> 
> It would also explain the abandoned Dharma village, which we know wasn't abandoned.
> 
> ...


Yeah, ever since I found out next week's episode title and hearing this mantra repeated throughout this season, I knew it was gonna be a big 'un where they explain a lot of things and do more set-ups. What I find interesting is that we STILL don't know what the rules or goals of this season are.

What I mean is that there was always a goal that carried us from beginning to the end of the season. Turning off the radio tower. Turning off the Looking Glass station. Getting back to the island, etc.

God, I love this show.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

whitson77 said:


> Ben is not dead. I don't think he can be.


Maybe Ecko, Boone, Shannon, Joanna, the Oceanic Pilot, Nikki, Paulo, Ana Lucia, Libby, Naomi, Danielle, Alex, Karl, Mr. Friendly, Ethan, Charlie, Keamy and his men, Scott and or Steve, and Frogurt aren't dead either...

OMG...the zombie season is real!


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jradford said:


> I'm going to have to see a screen shot comparison. I don't remember them looking anything alike.





DUDE_NJX said:


> No. Different guys.





DUDE_NJX said:


> Russian
> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0099228/
> 
> Deadwood dude
> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0761836/


I'm not saying they were the same actor, I'm suggesting they were the same character, one in 1977 and one thirty years older in 2007.

The guy in the woods was named Oldham and he seemed to specialize in drugs. The briber was in a building whose sign translated to Oldham Pharmaceuticals, as Fool Me Twice posted, and killing him would benefit Ben/Sayid?.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

So imdb lists one actor as playing "Ivan", and another as playing "Oldham", notably only mentioning one name for each. If they're in fact the same person, and his name is Ivan Oldham, and his middle initial is R (no source for that, but it'd fit), then an anagram for Ivan R Oldham is "lovin dharma".


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> I'm not saying they were the same actor, I'm suggesting they were the same character, one in 1977 and one thirty years older in 2007.
> 
> The guy in the woods was named Oldham and he seemed to specialize in drugs. The briber was in a building whose sign translated to Oldham Pharmaceuticals, as Fool Me Twice posted, and killing him would benefit Ben/Sayid?.


That would make the one in 2007 90 yrs old.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> So imdb lists one actor as playing "Ivan", and another as playing "Oldham", notably only mentioning one name for each. If they're in fact the same person, and his name is Ivan Oldham, and his middle initial is R (no source for that, but it'd fit), then an anagram for Ivan R Oldham is "lovin dharma".


Ben referred to the Russian by his last name, and it wasn't Oldham. Of course, it's Ben so we have to believe him...


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> That would make the one in 2007 90 yrs old.


..what, based on the age of the actor that played Oldham? Haven't we had enough problems making assumptions about characters' ages based on the actors' ages? (the Charlotte fiasco).


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

whitson77 said:


> Ben is not dead. I don't think he can be.


Oh, I think he can be.

For the moment.

But Man Ben Crash Survivor is still floating around somewhere in the space-time continuum, and I suspect that Child Ben's death will prove reversible when the universe gets fixed.

One amusing thought I had is that the New Universe (Ben dead, Dharma village abandoned) is the correct one, and the Old Universe (from the first 4 1/2 seasons) is the broken one. But I don't see how they could pull that off...


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> ..what, based on the age of the actor that played Oldham? Haven't we had enough problems making assumptions about characters' ages based on the actors' ages? (the Charlotte fiasco).


So both characters are physically in the same age range, no matter their place in time. They wouldn't look like a totally different person. Unless you're mixing reincarnation into this to make sure it fits your theory


----------



## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

hefe said:


> According to Wiki, "Jack Cover, a NASA researcher, began developing the Taser in 1969. By 1974, Cover had completed the device, which he named for his childhood hero Tom Swift."
> 
> I can accept that Dharma had one, even if not in general use.


This wasn't a Taser (ie, a stun gun that operates at a distance). This was a contact stunner. Cattleprods have existed since at least the early 1950's. Admittedly the one used by Sawyer was small, but I concur that Dharma has access to some advanced tech, so I can give them a pass. Just like having possession of an infallible truth serum that may or may not have been based on LSD.


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

hefe said:


> Maybe Ecko, Boone, Shannon, Joanna, the Oceanic Pilot, Nikki, Paulo, Ana Lucia, Libby, Naomi, Danielle, Alex, Karl, Mr. Friendly, Ethan, Charlie, Keamy and his men, Scott and or Steve, and Frogurt aren't dead either...
> 
> OMG...the zombie season is real!


They are all dead.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Oh, I think he can be.
> 
> For the moment.
> 
> ...


If they introduce multiple universes to this show, I will almost completely lose interest.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> One amusing thought I had is that the New Universe (Ben dead, Dharma village abandoned) is the correct one, and the Old Universe (from the first 4 1/2 seasons) is the broken one. But I don't see how they could pull that off...


Yeah that occurred to me as well.. I thought that the idea of them all moving into the barracks (and stealing Alex) was all because Ben was able to influence that decision, but that was not what Jacob wanted - Ben was oppressing Jacob, leaving Jacob to tell Locke "help me.....". All of that on the 'wrong' timeline.

..but I'm still an apostle, not an apostate. You've lost your faith, Rob.  (The good part of doing that is, you get to enjoy the rollercoaster ride, which is what the writers want).


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Oh, I think he can be.
> 
> For the moment.
> 
> ...


We'll see. But if he is dead, this show is dangerously close to the wheels shooting off.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

What about the theory the Locke is alive once they've came back, because in THIS timeline, Ben is dead, so he couldn't have killed him?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

whitson77 said:


> We'll see. But if he is dead, this show is dangerously close to the wheels shooting off.


Thank you for reminding me what I thought of while driving to work..

What if Faraday is in the Orchid because he's so mad that he lost Charlotte during the flashes that he tried destroying the wheel out of completely misplaced anger.. He blasts a hole in the wall (that Ben walks through later), goes in, smashes the hell out of the wheel, and knocks it off of its axis (as opposed to Ben knocking it off of its axis).


----------



## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

It's easy to see which of us are "men of faith" and which are "men of sience" when discussing our trust in the writers. I'm a man of faith myself. 

I also think Faraday's rules are applicable and were laid out earlier in the season to act as a guide. Does this mean young Ben isn't dead? Of course not! We've seen dead people brought back to life. Daniel's rules simply say that Ben will continue to live...somehow. I'm sure we'll get that answer soon enough.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> If they introduce multiple universes to this show, I will almost completely lose interest.


There's only one universe.

And now it's broken.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

DUDE_NJX said:


> The russian briber was what?


The place was "Oldham Pharmaceuticals". The guy on the Island who gave Sayid the drugs was called Oldham. So there's definitely a relationship, although the person whom Sayid shot was *not* Oldham himself. He spoke flawless Russian and neither his face nor his voice looked/sounded like Larry/Sebastian.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

wprager said:


> The place was "Oldham Pharmaceuticals". The guy on the Island who gave Sayid the drugs was called Oldham. So there's definitely a relationship, although the person whom Sayid shot was *not* Oldham himself. He spoke flawless Russian and neither his face nor his voice looked/sounded like Larry/Sebastian.


The Russian briber's name was Andropov. When Sayid meets Ben in the alley right after killing him Ben says "We're done. Andropov was the last one. You've taken care of everyone who posed a threat to your friends....There's no one else in Widmore's organization that we need to go after."

My question is, How did killing the briber and the golfer and whoever else protect the ones left on the island?


----------



## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

tiams said:


> My question is, How did killing the briber and the golfer and whoever else protect the ones left on the island?


You're assuming that Ben was telling the truth about that.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

tiams said:


> The Russian briber's name was Andropov. When Sayid meets Ben in the alley right after killing him Ben says "We're done. Andropov was the last one. You've taken care of everyone who posed a threat to your friends....There's no one else in Widmore's organization that we need to go after."
> 
> My question is, How did killing the briber and the golfer and whoever else protect the ones left on the island?


I think it's simply eliminating competition.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

hanumang said:


> Agreed. When they intro'd 12-year-old Ben last week, I figured Sayid would be tempted to kill him. Never in a million years did I think Sayid would actually pull the trigger though.
> 
> Not sure how I feel about this turn of events (with regards to the larger mythology/story arc). It might pan out well, I suppose, but being that Sayid was (is?) such a sympathetic, popular character with the audience gotta wonder how folks will turn on him after he shoots a kid. I certainly think of Sayid differently now. (and yes, I realize that's kinda the point.)
> 
> Props to the writers for being ballsy though...


I know you've already discussed this, but I think that given what we know about Sayid and his motives, and what we know about Ben, most viewers aren't going to think any less of Sayid for killing a kid.

But I did find it interesting that he shot him. I thought for sure that when Sayid saw how Ben's father treated him, he realized that his purpose was to get Ben away from Roger so that he wouldn't harbor that anger that eventually led to the Purge.


cheesesteak said:


> There aren't many of the maddening "Why didn't he/she tell anybody else that crucial nugget of information?" instances this season (at least this half season). They're telling the story without making my head explode.


Totally agree with this. Especially since I have a friend who always brings those things up, and he's been blessedly silent for several weeks.


obixman said:


> One thing that jarred me a little was seeing Sawyer Tase Sayid.
> 
> I don't think Tasers were around in 1977 (certainly not in general use...), and although Sawyer may know about them in general, would be know enough to build one? And if he did, would the Dahrma group accept one.
> 
> It just jarred me a little.


It's already been said that that wasn't a Taser, it was a stun gun. But I agree that it was kind of surprising that Sawyer did that to Sayid without any warning (and my wife thought it looked like he got him in the crotch). I also had to laugh at Sayid's facial expression when it happened. It was almost as if they hadn't told Naveen Andrews what was coming and then let Josh Holloway actually shock him.

Great episode. I'm in the camp that believes Ben isn't dead, and that Sayid's attempt to kill him actually did more to shape who he becomes.

I'll bet the stuff that Oldham gave Sayid was Sodium Pentothal, not LSD.

How great was it when the title of the episode was used. When I saw the title and saw who it centered on, I knew that Dharma was going to have an interrogation/torture specialist.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

aintnosin said:


> You're assuming that Ben was telling the truth about that.


No, actually I assume Ben was lying to Sayid and had his own reasons for wanting those people dead. I guess my real question is, what did Ben tell Sayid the connection between all those people and his friends left on the island was? Was it simply that they worked for Widmore and Widmore would continue to try and find the island and blow it up?


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I think it would be pretty cool to see them try and pull off a Ben is dead storyline, but I'm guessing he's nearly dead, but will be miraculously saved by none other than Dr. Jack.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'll bet the stuff that Oldham gave Sayid was Sodium Pentothal, not LSD.


The only reason I still vote LSD (and it makes no difference to the story) is they intentionally showed Larry putting a drop or two on a sugar cube. When you had LSD in a vial--as versus having bought some blotter acid--you always dropped it on a sugar cube.

Or so I've heard.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Well, now we have our first attempt at changing the past. So now the question is, "Did it work?" I guess that depends on how the title of next week's episode is interpreted.

Does it mean


Spoiler



"whatever happened will always happen"


 or


Spoiler



"what's done is done"


?

If Ben does survive, I wonder what he will think of the Others. If he still thinks Sayid is one of them, will he think Sayid killed him as some sort of "rite of passage"?

If this is what always happened to Ben, then we know Sayid shooting him did not deter him from wanting to join the Others. So either he will not be angry at Sayid for shooting him (accepting that this was part of the process of joining), he will find out that Sayid is not an Other, or he will think Sayid was an Other, but not representing them by attempting to kill him.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

aintnosin said:


> No, it was J.F. Sebastian.


Do androids really dream of electric sheep?


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There's only one universe.
> 
> And now it's broken.


I hope someone kept the receipt ...


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Ben referred to the Russian by his last name, and it wasn't Oldham. Of course, it's Ben so we have to believe him...


That name was Andropov I believe.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Delta13 said:


> I hope someone kept the receipt ...


Well, according to my theory, that would be our hero, Ben.


----------



## zanyman (Dec 12, 2007)

Perhaps "dead" Ben will be resurrected by "taller Walt"


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah...I have my theories, and I feel strongly about them, but I have complete confidence that if I'm wrong, whatever is right will be right.
> 
> If you know what I mean...


Total sig line quality material, there. 

As for tasers, Sawyer called it a zapper in "Lefleur" when he asked if Miles was packing his. I agree with whoever said that Naveen looked surprised, and it looked to be a TOTALLY wrong place to zap a guy.  Even jabbing with that zapper would be highly inappropriate, geez.

The Oldham connection to Russia is interesting. I don't read Russian forwards or backwards, and I don't know what the CC said during the Russian sequence because it went all white with no words at that point. Sounds like maybe Ben is getting rid of some old Dharma buddies.

And I don't think Locke is alive now because Ben is (suddenly) dead. That would take some torturing of cause and effect to get there. Not to mention the fact that Ben isn't dead or even missing in the 2007 timeline from the Ajira crash, which he would be being dead and all. No, Locke is on the Christian Plan.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Why is everyone talking about the Dharma village being abandoned like it's changed history? In show continuity, it's been abandoned for three years, with or without any changed history. I don't think the producers are changing history after they said it couldn't be done, except in special cases, and even then they got around the time paradox by making Desmond remember the stuff later on.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

NoThru22 said:


> Why is everyone talking about the Dharma village being abandoned like it's changed history? In show continuity, it's been abandoned for three years, with or without any changed history. I don't think the producers are changing history after they said it couldn't be done, except in special cases, and even then they got around the time paradox by making Desmond remember the stuff later on.


People are talking about it being a change because in 2007 there is a Dharma logo on the outside of a door, and a hanging "processing center" sign (from the Dharma era) that we never saw when we saw the Others living there post-Dharma-Purge.

The best theory I've seen so far to explain that is that the processing center was "there" in the same way that the cabin was "there" - that is, it was some sort of projection that they could see and touch, but it moved at Christian/Jacob/?'s whim.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> Why is everyone talking about the Dharma village being abandoned like it's changed history? In show continuity, it's been abandoned for three years, with or without any changed history. I don't think the producers are changing history after they said it couldn't be done, except in special cases, and even then they got around the time paradox by making Desmond remember the stuff later on.


The reason is because the Dharmaville that Sun and Lapidus went to did not appear to have been altered since Dharma left it. There were still many remnants of Dharma, including the signs jkeegan mentioned, and also the pictures that Christian showed to Sun and Frank. But in the timeline that we are familiar with, the Others moved into Dharmaville and would have removed all traces of Dharma, including those pictures and signs. So the speculation is that Sun and Frank are somehow in an alternate reality where the Others never moved into Dharmaville (which then begs the question of why is it abandoned if the Purge never took place).


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I forget, was Kate about to tell us why she came back to the island before the flaming van came crashing though the village. What a tease that is. We now (almost) know how everyone got to the plane (Ben being beat up still has to be addressed), but know what was going on with Kate (and Aaron) preflight is still a big question mark.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

When did we see the processing station? Maybe that station was never used by The Others and it's been in disarray since 1993 (The Purge).


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> When did we see the processing station? Maybe that station was never used by The Others and it's been in disarray since 1993 (The Purge).


Given what New Otherton looked like (very well maintained) and how civilized they appeared to be (book clubs, baking cookies, etc.), do you think it's realistic that they spruced up the whole village but left one building in complete disrepair?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> When did we see the processing station? Maybe that station was never used by The Others and it's been in disarray since 1993 (The Purge).


In that very episode.. it was where Jack, Kate, and Hurley were being processed.. (processing new recruits). Signs inside the building confirm that.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> In that very episode.. it was where Jack, Kate, and Hurley were being processed.. (processing new recruits). Signs inside the building confirm that.


I mean before, when The Others were living there.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Given what New Otherton looked like (very well maintained) and how civilized they appeared to be (book clubs, baking cookies, etc.), do you think it's realistic that they spruced up the whole village but left one building in complete disrepair?


I think the processing building is not near the village, and yes, since the Others do not do a lot of processing people from the mainland or (the other side), then yeah I think they would leave one building in compelte disrepair.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Slightly off-episode question: We got into a discussion at work about The Others vs The Hostiles vs Dharma vs whatever. And the question came up: In all the times we've seen Richard, have we ever seen him living in the village? By village, I mean New Otherton or Dharmaville or whatever you want to call it?


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

astrohip said:


> Slightly off-episode question: We got into a discussion at work about The Others vs The Hostiles vs Dharma vs whatever. And the question came up: In all the times we've seen Richard, have we ever seen him living in the village? By village, I mean New Otherton or Dharmaville or whatever you want to call it?


That's because he's allways where the tents are, at least that's what Juliette said.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> I think the processing building is not near the village, and yes, since the Others do not do a lot of processing people from the mainland or (the other side), then yeah I think they would leave one building in compelte disrepair.


It sure seemed to me that when Sawyer pulled up in the Vanagon with Kate, Jack and Hurley, that he was right in the middle of the village. If the processing building is separated from the houses, it's not by very far. And it's just a building. It's not like the Others couldn't use it for something else if they didn't have people to "process."


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I thought the building that they were at was right near the dock (where the sub would have dropped them off), and that they would drive from the dock to the village.

I guess we'll have to wait to find out what's really going on.


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

mostman said:


> Two things. First, Ben must despise Sayid. This will make it interesting to go back and watchtheir early interactions. If there are clues there - then we pretty much have proof that the writers planned things WAY ahead.


except that the actors had no idea where the story was heading back in S2


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

bruinfan said:


> except that the actors had no idea where the story was heading back in S2


Unless they were told...


----------



## barbeedoll (Sep 26, 2005)

What's nagging me is that until last week we, theoretically, didn't know the little kid was Ben.

Then this week it seemed they opened with Ben having his jungle conversation with Richard Alpert. It appeared to me that was bundled in with the "previously on Lost" portion, and I didn't think I had seen anything like that on a previous episode.

Anyone else notice that?

Barbeedoll


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

barbeedoll said:


> What's nagging me is that until last week we, theoretically, didn't know the little kid was Ben.
> 
> Then this week it seemed they opened with Ben having his jungle conversation with Richard Alpert. It appeared to me that was bundled in with the "previously on Lost" portion, and I didn't think I had seen anything like that on a previous episode.
> 
> ...


We saw that before.

Season 3, episode 20, "The Man Behind The Curtain"

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Man_Behind_the_Curtain


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

barbeedoll said:


> What's nagging me is that until last week we, theoretically, didn't know the little kid was Ben.
> 
> Then this week it seemed they opened with Ben having his jungle conversation with Richard Alpert. It appeared to me that was bundled in with the "previously on Lost" portion, and I didn't think I had seen anything like that on a previous episode.
> 
> ...


Yep, as hefe said, there was a whole episode with flashbacks devoted to Ben's backstory, starting with his birth in Oregon, his coming to Dharma with his dad after his mother died in childbirth, the way his father treated him like crap, how he met Richard in the jungle, which all led up to him killing all the members of Dharma and joining the Others.


----------



## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yep, as hefe said, there was a whole episode with flashbacks devoted to Ben's backstory, starting with his birth in Oregon, his coming to Dharma with his dad after his mother died in childbirth, the way his father treated him like crap, how he met Richard in the jungle, which all led up to him killing all the members of Dharma and joining the Others.


i have to go back and rewatch, but i got the impression that young ben killed his dad either in the burning van or the house that caught fire when he said something like "he _was_ a bad person", or used another word to describe his dad in the past tense.

but in the episode mentioned above, didn't his dad die in one of the vans?


----------



## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

robbhimself said:


> but in the episode mentioned above, didn't his dad die in one of the vans?


Ben released poison gas and put a mask on himself. He was with his father in the van. Of course, he did not give a mask to his father.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

robbhimself said:


> i have to go back and rewatch, but i got the impression that young ben killed his dad either in the burning van or the house that caught fire when he said something like "he _was_ a bad person", or used another word to describe his dad in the past tense.
> 
> but in the episode mentioned above, didn't his dad die in one of the vans?


In this episode, the burning van was simply to cause a diversion so Ben could break Sayid out. I don't Ben intended for anyone to get hurt, and we saw no evidence that anyone was.


----------



## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't Ben intended for anyone to get hurt, and we saw no evidence that anyone was.


Except when he referred to Papa Linus in the past tense.


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Unless they were told...


but they said they weren't told... so unless someone is lying...


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aintnosin said:


> Except when he referred to Papa Linus in the past tense.


Well, I didn't hear that. But if he did say that and he did kill/hurt his dad, I'd have to say that that clinches it as to whether the past can be changed vs. "what happened, happened."

Something tells me that if that were actually the case, it wouldn't be coming up for the first time nearly 150 posts into this thread.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> By the way, not that they'll pay much attention to it now, but Sayid just told them almost everything! If they ever have reason to think about it (Radzinsky will have lots of time in the Swan to contemplate it, and Horace is spending time thinking about things), they know (and could write down) that Oceanic flight 815 would someday arrive, as would Ajira flight 316. I gotta rewatch that scene (didn't make it far through my rewatch before I fell asleep).


Yeah, I was almost expecting Horace to say, "Oh, another one from the future. When did you come from." They are experimenting with time travel, after all. I wouldn't expect them to be totally disbelieving if someone obviously appeared right in front of them and there was no other explanation.

Also I wonder exactly how much time Radzinsky spends in the Swan. Is he there from close around 1977 till Inman comes around 1990? Inman was in the first Gulf War before he came, right? And why does he stay there? Is it punishment for something? Is there really a contaminant outside at some point? He must know after the purge that the Others are watching them. Surely there would be an automatic way to enter the numbers.



sonnik said:


> Don't forget that we had a glimpse of Faraday working below ground at the Orchid earlier this season (alongside Candle/Chang). They had discovered the magical time wheel on the other side of the rock.


I remember Chang telling them not to drill any further, but I didn't remember them discovering the wheel. 



acej80 said:


> I believe she is working for Ben and this was all planned. In the beginning of last weeks episode, when the ajira flight was going thru the flashes, the camera panned across her face, and she had this very calm look to her face, like "Ahh, it's starting to happen, good".


If so, I wonder what he told her was going to happen? Unless she's an insider and not just someone paid to take a guy on a certain flight. 


cheesesteak said:


> There aren't many of the maddening "Why didn't he/she tell anybody else that crucial nugget of information?"


What about Jack not telling Kate that Sawyer and Juliet were a couple?



Delta13 said:


> And I don't think Locke is alive now because Ben is (suddenly) dead.


If Ben were dead, and it worked that way, a lot of formerly dead people would be suddenly alive.


----------



## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I remember Chang telling them not to drill any further, but I didn't remember them discovering the wheel.


I seem to remember like some IR sensing, or some other equipment to detect a shape within rock.

...and now, looking at Lostpedia...



> The foreman shows Chang a printout which he says came from SONAR-imaging of the wall that reveals the outline of the frozen wheel in an open chamber 20 meters behind the wall.


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> Also I wonder exactly how much time Radzinsky spends in the Swan. Is he there from close around 1977 till Inman comes around 1990? Inman was in the first Gulf War before he came, right? And why does he stay there? Is it punishment for something? Is there really a contaminant outside at some point? He must know after the purge that the Others are watching them. Surely there would be an automatic way to enter the numbers.


how long would it take to actually build it? it' still in the planning stages... but even if he started in the early 80's, 10 yrs is a long time to spend in a hatch.

it would have to be before the purge, and after The Incident. if he was in the hatch during the purge, he wouldn't know about the purge, right?



stellie93 said:


> I remember Chang telling them not to drill any further, but I didn't remember them discovering the wheel.


chang knew about the wheel.. that's what they were drilling for.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

About the Dharma pictures still being on the wall. We know the others continued to recruit from the real world (Juliette, for example.) Did they just keep the name "Dharma" to give some legitimacy to their projects on the Island? After all, the stations have the logos plastered everywhere: why take the time to paint them over, etc. Just leave them, and leave the pictures on the wall to complete the impersonation of the organization you killed off.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

And did anyone comment on the significance of the title: Sawyer said "He's our you." Not "He's their you." Sawyer IS Dharma now. And why shouldn't he be? What he thought was Dharma was the others, so he has no beef with Dharma.


----------



## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> But I did find it interesting that he shot him. I thought for sure that when Sayid saw how Ben's father treated him, he realized that his purpose was to get Ben away from Roger so that he wouldn't harbor that anger that eventually led to the Purge.


Indeed.

I have to wonder what (we, the audience, are supposed to think) Sayid's original plan was for after the break-out. I don't believe he had a gun until he took one from Jin, so are were we to expect that Sayid would do one of his 'crazy breakdancing' moves on little Ben?

Not a question we can answer, but I love that the Lost writers put the question out there.


----------



## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

It is possible that Radzinsky rotated in and out of that place, but, once the Purge happened, he was stuck there.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> About the Dharma pictures still being on the wall. We know the others continued to recruit from the real world (Juliette, for example.) Did they just keep the name "Dharma" to give some legitimacy to their projects on the Island? After all, the stations have the logos plastered everywhere: why take the time to paint them over, etc. Just leave them, and leave the pictures on the wall to complete the impersonation of the organization you killed off.


Heh. You people remind me of the ones who were in denial about Sun's affair with her English tutor. Even after we saw them in bed together.

They showed us that the village had been abandoned since Dharma left about as clearly as they could show it without actual "30 Years After Dharma Left" subtitles.


----------



## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> And did anyone comment on the significance of the title: Sawyer said "He's our you." Not "He's their you." Sawyer IS Dharma now. And why shouldn't he be? What he thought was Dharma was the others, so he has no beef with Dharma.


Yeah, I'm reminded of the exchange with Sawyer where Sayid asks why he cares about these (Dharma) people. Sawyer's response ("They trust me") was pretty telling.

Sawyer a happy man? Say it isn't so...


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

bruinfan said:


> how long would it take to actually build it? it' still in the planning stages... but even if he started in the early 80's, 10 yrs is a long time to spend in a hatch.
> 
> it would have to be before the purge, and after The Incident. if he was in the hatch during the purge, he wouldn't know about the purge, right?


Interesting that the names of the stations were chosen beforehand. Also interesting that the Head of Research was designing the layout. I still don't think Jughead was buried at the Swan, and you wouldn't need all this setup to study a buried H-bomb. Radzinsky probably started on the map after the Purge I'm thinking, wasn't altogether in the all together, and eventually snapped. Maybe he died remembering Sayid's words.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

hanumang said:


> Yeah, I'm reminded of the exchange with Sawyer where Sayid asks why he cares about these (Dharma) people. Sawyer's response ("They trust me") was pretty telling.
> 
> Sawyer a happy man? Say it isn't so...


He also tells Sayid that they've made nice lives for themselves there. Sawyer and Juliet have found a place where they belong. Juliet says essentially the same thing to Kate.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> And did anyone comment on the significance of the title: Sawyer said "He's our you." Not "He's their you." Sawyer IS Dharma now. And why shouldn't he be? What he thought was Dharma was the others, so he has no beef with Dharma.


Well, given that Sawyer was a part of the "Losties" for less than 4 months, and he's been a part of Dharma now for 3 years, it makes sense that he identifies more with Dharma. In a sense, Sawyer is currently pulling off his most successful long con ever.


Delta13 said:


> Interesting that the names of the stations were chosen beforehand. Also interesting that the Head of Research was designing the layout. I still don't think Jughead was buried at the Swan, and you wouldn't need all this setup to study a buried H-bomb. Radzinsky probably started on the map after the Purge I'm thinking, wasn't altogether in the all together, and eventually snapped. Maybe he died remembering Sayid's words.


Is it Radzinsky who drew the map on he blast door? Do we know that for sure? I got the impression from the map that it was drawn by someone who was simply piecing together clues that they'd gathered and that it was knowledge that he wasn't supposed to have, which is why it was only visible with a black light and only when the blast door was down. If Radzinsky drew the map, that really wouldn't make sense, since he was intimately familiar with the other stations and their purposes.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> How does a trained assassin/torturer NOT kill someone shooting from such close range?


Maybe he's not use to shooting kids.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

TonyTheTiger said:


> I think Ben survived the bullet.....


Impossible...how does a trained killer/assassin/torturer NOT kill a static target from close range?



vertigo235 said:


> Maybe he's not use to shooting kids.


I think he's used to killing about anything...including chickens


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I think Ben will be found barely alive, and Jack (and possibly Juliet) will operate and save him, thus blowing their cover at Dharma.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Fleegle said:


> He also tells Sayid that they've made nice lives for themselves there. Sawyer and Juliet have found a place where they belong. Juliet says essentially the same thing to Kate.


But you think that Juliet might be creeped out at the fact that young Ben is running around.
(And for all we know, fixated on her).


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Is it Radzinsky who drew the map on he blast door? Do we know that for sure? I got the impression from the map that it was drawn by someone who was simply piecing together clues that they'd gathered and that it was knowledge that he wasn't supposed to have, which is why it was only visible with a black light and only when the blast door was down. If Radzinsky drew the map, that really wouldn't make sense, since he was intimately familiar with the other stations and their purposes.


Kelvin told Desmond it was Radzinsky who started the map. That's been the accepted answer ever since. Kelvin continued it after Radzinsky died. Who did how much we've never known.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

1) We know young Ben is fixated on Juliete. When she arived from the sub years later, someone said something like "no wonder he's following you around - you look just like her..". I think he had a crush on her as a kid, grows up, recruits her (even killing her boss to get her), and now gets to have her as an adult. "you're MINE"

2) If/when Ben heals, their cover is blown. He saw Jin talking to Sayid, Jin is one of Sawyer's people, and Sawyer himself was the last one to vote for killing Sayid.


----------



## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

I guess Radzinsky isn't too smart and forgot that Jin came in asking about the Radar and if a plane had been seen when Sayid mentioned that he came in on a plane...


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> 1) We know young Ben is fixated on Juliete. When she arived from the sub years later, someone said something like "no wonder he's following you around - you look just like her..". I think he had a crush on her as a kid, grows up, recruits her (even killing her boss to get her), and now gets to have her as an adult. "you're MINE"


Does he realize that it's the same person?


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> 1) We know young Ben is fixated on Juliete. When she arived from the sub years later, someone said something like "no wonder he's following you around - you look just like her..". I think he had a crush on her as a kid, grows up, recruits her (even killing her boss to get her), and now gets to have her as an adult. "you're MINE"


How do we know young Ben is fixated on Juliet? I missed that part.

Is this the first time the 815ers have been in the 70s as 815ers (which I believe but starting to doubt) or are we supposed to think that this has happened before and it will happen again? Is there a time loop and was it just created with the 815ers return this season or is this return to the 70s one of many that has already occurred?
__________________


----------



## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

teknikel said:


> How do we know young Ben is fixated on Juliet? I missed that part.


Last year's episode "The Other Woman"... if not also other places. Ben is a very jealous guy.



teknikel said:


> Is this the first time the 815ers have been in the 70s as 815ers (which I believe but starting to doubt) or are we supposed to think that this has happened before and it will happen again? Is there a time loop and was it just created with the 815ers return this season or is this return to the 70s one of many that has already occurred?


If we are to believe "What Happened, Happened", this is the *only* return of the 815ers to the 70s because at always happened because it *did* happen. Personally, I don't know *what* to believe... except that it's a long wait 'til next Wednesday!


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

PKurmas said:


> Last year's episode "The Other Woman"... if not also other places. Ben is a very jealous guy.


Did _*young *_Ben see/know Juliet in that episode?


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Unless they were told...


I can't find a link, but I remember reading an interview with Dalton either just before this season or last season where they said that they didn't know when they first hired Michael Emerson that he would turn out to be the leader of the Others. I took it to mean that they had a plan for the actions of the leader of the others for Season 3 and beyond, but that they didn't decide until the very end of season 2 to make Ben that person. Thus, I don't think you can read anythign into the season 2 interactions between Ben and Sayid. I suppose season three and beyond is fair game.


----------



## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

teknikel said:


> Did _*young *_Ben see/know Juliet in that episode?


Sorry, I missed the word "young" in your post. But it would just make a whole lot of sense that's why he's so possessive.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

teknikel said:


> Did _*young *_Ben see/know Juliet in that episode?


No, but I think what jkeegan meant was that the "her" in "no wonder he's following you around - you look just like her.." was Juliet. Somehow Ben had affection for Juliet as a boy, and either he knew when Juliet was from and sought her out (more likely) or after meeting Juliet as an adult, had affection for her because she reminded him of the Juliet he had met in the past, but didn't realize was the same person (less likely).

If that is the case, then there is a good chance that Juliet played an important role in saving young Ben. Perhaps, like Sayid, she attempted to change the past, but by nurturing Ben instead of killing him.


----------



## barbeedoll (Sep 26, 2005)

hefe said:


> We saw that before.
> 
> Season 3, episode 20, "The Man Behind The Curtain"
> 
> http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Man_Behind_the_Curtain


Thanks. That was had slipped my mind.....what's left of it after following this great season's twists and turns. 

Barbeedoll


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jamesbobo said:


> Ben released poison gas and put a mask on himself. He was with his father in the van. Of course, he did not give a mask to his father.


Additionally it was not young child Ben, it was Michael Emerson playing Ben.

Diane


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

It would be interesting if little Ben turns into the Ben we know BECAUSE he was shot.


Spoiler



(as hinted in the podcast)


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> Additionally it was not young child Ben, it was Michael Emerson playing Ben.
> 
> Diane


Exactly. In 1977, the Purge is still about 15 years away.



DUDE_NJX said:


> It would be interesting if little Ben turns into the Ben we know BECAUSE he was shot.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


And as mentioned several times already in this thread.


----------



## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

When Sayid was talking about the other stations, there was a look of surprise when he mentioned the station that observed the other stations. There was some surprise that he knew anything about any of the stations, but when he mentioned that one, I think that was the first some of the Dharma folk had heard of it.

Anyone else get that impression?


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> 1) We know young Ben is fixated on Juliete. When she arived from the sub years later, someone said something like "no wonder he's following you around - you look just like her..". I think he had a crush on her as a kid, grows up, recruits her (even killing her boss to get her), and now gets to have her as an adult. "you're MINE"


Good memory.

From "The Other Woman"



> [Scene changes to Harpers office]
> 
> HARPER: So Juliet, what do you think of Ben?
> 
> ...


That's all we get about that. Since this scene was set in 2004 (I think), there's no way Harper (who was Goodwin's wife) would have been around in 1977 to know what Juliet looks like. So who does she look like, and how does Harper know?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Good memory.
> 
> From "The Other Woman"
> 
> That's all we get about that. Since this scene was set in 2004 (I think), there's no way Harper (who was Goodwin's wife) would have been around in 1977 to know what Juliet looks like. So who does she look like, and how does Harper know?


Ben could have kept a picture of Juliet from 1977. Or since there is some evidence that the Others don't age, they could have seen her in 1977 and simply remembered what she looks like. But if the latter were the case, I'd think they'd know that it WAS her and didn't just look like her.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Concerning how some things aren't like they were before.. I had a thought about that last night...

Some crazy things happened when the time shifts were going on. Ropes, boats, etc. were transported thru time if the time travellers were using them. Perhaps someone who was time travelling (we have no idea where Rose and Bernard were during the whole "island skipping") was in the Dharma processing center at one time and it was transported to post 2004? 

Also, isn't it possible someone, in the previous three years, reactivated the numbers? Was the transmission gear destroyed? 

I'm still really hoping that "whatever happened already happened" and the future can't be changed stays true... otherwise, this all kind of starts going to hell IMO...


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

astrohip said:


> That's all we get about that. Since this scene was set in 2004 (I think), there's no way Harper (who was Goodwin's wife) would have been around in 1977 to know what Juliet looks like. So who does she look like, and how does Harper know?


I think the "look just like her" references Ben's friend Annie. I'm sure we haven't seen the last of her...


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> It would be interesting if little Ben turns into the Ben we know BECAUSE he was shot.


Several folks here have surmised the same previously. I had the same reaction on viewing and agree with all of you. It's a further twist and play on the time travel theme and unintended consequences. Sayid goes back in time and in attempting to 'undo' Ben's sociopathic impact on the LOSTies, actually pretty much causes his pathology. I say Ben lives.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

GDG76 said:


> I'm still really hoping that "whatever happened already happened" and the future can't be changed stays true... otherwise, this all kind of starts going to hell IMO...


I think that's the point...it's all going to hell.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> 1) We know young Ben is fixated on Juliete. *When she arived from the sub years later, someone said something like "no wonder he's following you around - you look just like her..".* I think he had a crush on her as a kid, grows up, recruits her (even killing her boss to get her), and now gets to have her as an adult. "you're MINE"
> 
> 2) If/when Ben heals, their cover is blown. He saw Jin talking to Sayid, Jin is one of Sawyer's people, and Sawyer himself was the last one to vote for killing Sayid.





teknikel said:


> How do we know young Ben is fixated on Juliet? I missed that part.


The very next sentence.. (I made it bold it above). Apparently Ben had some "her" that he liked enough sometime in the past that when Juliete arrived on the sub, someone compared Juliete to her. Now we can safely guess that the "her" was actually Juliete herself.. and I'll bet that Ben figures out that it's her.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

astrohip said:


> Good memory.


Thanks!



astrohip said:


> That's all we get about that. Since this scene was set in 2004 (I think), there's no way Harper (who was Goodwin's wife) would have been around in 1977 to know what Juliet looks like. So who does she look like, and how does Harper know?


There was a painting on a wall someplace, if I remember correctly (maybe in Ben's house).

Why wouldn't she be around? The actress is 42 years old now, so around 41 when that aired in 2008. (I still don't feel comfortable using actors'/actresses' ages for anything, especially after recent events, but..). The story was taking place sometime between 2001 and 2004, right? So that'd mean she was born in Lost time around 1960-1963 with no time distortions etc. She'd be around 17-20 years old in '77.



GDG76 said:


> Some crazy things happened when the time shifts were going on. Ropes, boats, etc. were transported thru time if the time travellers were using them. Perhaps someone who was time travelling (we have no idea where Rose and Bernard were during the whole "island skipping") was in the Dharma processing center at one time and it was transported to post 2004?


Interesting idea.. I don't buy it without seeing it (why isn't the ground they're standing on transported, etc), but it's certainly creative.



GDG76 said:


> Also, isn't it possible someone, in the previous three years, reactivated the numbers?


Sure, but the questions would then be who, and why? The numbers were put there by Dharma initially, and all of the Dharma people are dead. Unless Dharma comes back to the island after the O6 left, there's no good reason anyone would put that transmission back on (certainly not the Others).



GDG76 said:


> I think the "look just like her" references Ben's friend Annie. I'm sure we haven't seen the last of her...


I think that's what we were supposed to think at the time so we would have what seemed like a satisfying answer, so we didn't resort to theories like time travel (and could be surprised later).


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Ben could have kept a picture of Juliet from 1977.


Maybe she was in one of those Dharma group photos. I can't recall, but was she in the one that Christian showed to Sun?


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Interesting observation from this week's podcast regarding Charlotte's age:



Spoiler



Last week D&C laid the blame on Rebecca Madar for the change in her birthdate and the age discrepancy. This week, they retracted that and basically said they were told about the change and did not correct it in the revise script.

Not sure I believe there mea culpa. I wonder if thy need Rebecca Madar back for future episodes and felt throwing her under the bus would not help the situation.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> Interesting observation from this week's podcast regarding Charlotte's age:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Already discussed here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7159119#post7159119

And reported on here:
http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/03...clusive:+War+erupts+over+Charlotte's+real+age

There's no reason not to believe what they say. The explanation makes sense.


----------



## sjgmoney (Jun 13, 2006)

DUSlider said:


> I guess Radzinsky isn't too smart and forgot that Jin came in asking about the Radar and if a plane had been seen when Sayid mentioned that he came in on a plane...


Good catch. How did that obnoxious Radzinsky forget about that?


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Happy birthday to Elizabeth Mitchell (Juliet), who turns 39 today (yes, for the first time).


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Already discussed here:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7159119#post7159119
> 
> And reported on here:
> ...


Also no reason for spoiler tags, I would say.

I'm not sure I believe them. Their reason seemed too specific last time for it to not have happened at all. Why would they have thought she made the change before? I don't know...seems odd.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

wprager said:


> Happy birthday to Elizabeth Mitchell (Juliet), who turns 39 today (yes, for the first time).


So she was 27 in Gia.... NICE!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hefe said:


> I'm not sure I believe them. Their reason seemed too specific last time for it to not have happened at all. Why would they have thought she made the change before? I don't know...seems odd.


Because they heard the age was changed on-set to the actor's real much-younger age (true), and probably jumped to the conclusion that she was responsible, not the continuity guy (understandable assumption, but apparently not true).


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Because they heard the age was changed on-set to the actor's real much-younger age (true), and probably jumped to the conclusion that she was responsible, not the continuity guy (understandable assumption, but apparently not true).


That's quite a jump to lay it on her without specific knowledge, though. Just smells a bit fishy still.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

bruinfan said:


> how long would it take to actually build it? it' still in the planning stages... but even if he started in the early 80's, 10 yrs is a long time to spend in a hatch.
> 
> it would have to be before the purge, and after The Incident. if he was in the hatch during the purge, he wouldn't know about the purge, right?


never mind, according to lostpedia timelines:

the purge was 1992, the swan was built after 1977, but the orientation video was copyrighted 1980, and refers to The Incident.

confused now


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

the incident doesn't have to happen at the swan


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> the incident doesn't have to happen at the swan


..but it certainly affects the Swan.. it changes the purpose of work there from electromagnetic research (pre-incident) to entering numbers (which has the effect of preventing knives and washing machines from flying across the room in a magnetic nightmare).


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I wonder who was in charge in Ann Arbor, and how hands on they are? Horace seemed afraid to call them.

I was trying to remember if Sayid ever heard Daniel's theory of time travel. He didn't hang around to hear what Eloise had to say, and I don't remember him talking about it with Faraday. Maybe he didn't know about the universe "course correcting."

Maybe Sayid will go and find Richard now, and Jin will wake up and take Ben back, but how will they explain what Ben was doing out there? From the previews


Spoiler



it looks like the new guys will be the prime suspects for letting him out, but I wonder what he'll say when (if) he comes to?



I really think it's a stretch to say that Sayid shooting him is a big factor in forming his character. He barely knows Sayid and is just grasping at the chance to avoid waiting another 10 years to get out of there. I think a childhood of physical and mental abuse has way more to do with it than trusting the wrong stranger. It could even make him rethink going to the Others, since he thinks Sayid is one of them....but it won't.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I wonder who was in charge in Ann Arbor, and how hands on they are? Horace seemed afraid to call them.


Speaking of, why is Horace in charge?
Where's Dr. Chang while everything is going on.

Or do the scientists leave the day to day OPS to Horace.



stellie93 said:


> I really think it's a stretch to say that Sayid shooting him is a big factor in forming his character. He barely knows Sayid and is just grasping at the chance to avoid waiting another 10 years to get out of there. I think a childhood of physical and mental abuse has way more to do with it than trusting the wrong stranger. It could even make him rethink going to the Others, since he thinks Sayid is one of them....but it won't.


I don't know, I'd be pretty ticked if a guy I was trying to help out went and shot me.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> I don't know, I'd be pretty ticked if a guy I was trying to help out went and shot me.


And it might psychological damage me if it were a guy I was counting on to help me betray and possibly murder my family, friends, and community...


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> ..but it certainly affects the Swan.. it changes the purpose of work there from electromagnetic research (pre-incident) to entering numbers (which has the effect of preventing knives and washing machines from flying across the room in a magnetic nightmare).


Well, it affects the procedures at the swan, not necessarily the swan it self. The orientation film just said not to communicate using the computer, as to prevent another incident, right?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I wonder who was in charge in Ann Arbor, and how hands on they are? Horace seemed afraid to call them.
> 
> I was trying to remember if Sayid ever heard Daniel's theory of time travel. He didn't hang around to hear what Eloise had to say, and I don't remember him talking about it with Faraday. Maybe he didn't know about the universe "course correcting."


Someone named DeGroot in Ann Arbor, perhaps? Maybe Horace didn't want to call because he's been letting everyone slack on their morning calisthenics. 

I would Sayid got plenty of chances to talk about time travel and course correcting from Desmond when they were on the freighter. He didn't talk to Daniel, that's true, but Sayid didn't seem particularly disoriented or surprised to be in 1977. He handled it quite well.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> ..but it certainly affects the Swan.. it changes the purpose of work there from electromagnetic research (pre-incident) to entering numbers (which has the effect of preventing knives and washing machines from flying across the room in a magnetic nightmare).


Speaking of washing machines, does anybody else remember the dryer and washing machine in the Swan? It was all gleaming and modern day. Looked like a 2004 frontloader Whirlpool. Yet all the other furnishings in the Swan (the record player, the reel to reel tape, were late 70s as you would expect. Hurley and Libby commented on how out of place they were when they were doing laundry together. I wonder if time travel explains the anomaly. 
Sorry if its not appropriate to discuss something from so long ago in this thread.


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

tiams said:


> Speaking of washing machines, does anybody else remember the dryer and washing machine in the Swan? It was all gleaming and modern day. Looked like a 2004 frontloader Whirlpool. Yet all the other furnishings in the Swan (the record player, the reel to reel tape, were late 70s as you would expect. Hurley and Libby commented on how out of place they were when they were doing laundry together. I wonder if time travel explains the anomaly.
> Sorry if its not appropriate to discuss something from so long ago in this thread.


Maybe they both broke down and new ones were dropped in a Dharma drop. Of course Time anomalies may be necessary to explain the Dharma drops. Just ask jkeegan his theory on those.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

yeahhhh.. I remember that theory.. That was before we saw how little Dharma actually did with the experiments. Still interested in those details though and I'm willing to bet that we'll hear them.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

hefe said:


> That's quite a jump to lay it on her without specific knowledge, though. Just smells a bit fishy still.


Even fishier, the story in the podcast this week is slightly different from the story on Ausellio. On the podcast, they said the continuity guy _came to them_ and said that Rebecca's birthday was in 1979, let's just use that and D&C went with it.

That's just weird. Even if nobody else knew that Charlotte had to be four years old in 1974, Damon and Carlton certainly did. Didn't they? So, how do they OK something like that?

So, the entire story has changed from "this happened on the set without us knowing about it, and, uh duh, of course dates are important" to "we, personally, effed this up."


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Does it really matter? There will be mistakes. Some of then will be made by the people who should know better. Maybe they'll *fix it* in the box set (the full series box set).


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

GDG76 said:


> I think the "look just like her" references Ben's friend Annie. I'm sure we haven't seen the last of her...





jkeegan said:


> The very next sentence.. (I made it bold it above). Apparently Ben had some "her" that he liked enough sometime in the past that when Juliete arrived on the sub, someone compared Juliete to her. Now we can safely guess that the "her" was actually Juliete herself.. and I'll bet that Ben figures out that it's her.





jkeegan said:


> There was a painting on a wall someplace, if I remember correctly (maybe in Ben's house).


I thought the painting was of his mother and that's what I assumed that was the 'her' Harper was talking about.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Cindy1230 said:


> I thought the painting was of his mother and that's what I assumed that was the 'her' Harper was talking about.


Ok, well, his biological mother died in childbirth and we didn't see Ben or his dad holding any 3-foot tall paintings when they arrived on the island, and Roger didn't seem like the painting type. Maybe he had a wallet photo and Ben painted it from that I suppose, but I think it's far more likely that Juliete acted like a mother figure to him after seeing how bad Roger treats him (maybe?). Eh, I'm not sure I convinced even myself there, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Sawyer is "getting along" with the kid - my money is on Juliete doing the same.

..Jeff


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I know you've already discussed this, but I think that given what we know about Sayid and his motives, and what we know about Ben, most viewers aren't going to think any less of Sayid for killing a kid.
> 
> But I did find it interesting that he shot him. I thought for sure that when Sayid saw how Ben's father treated him, he realized that his purpose was to get Ben away from Roger so that he wouldn't harbor that anger that eventually led to the Purge.


Maybe seeing how Roger treated Ben showed Sayid that Ben is already damaged goods, so to speak, like himself. That Ben's character is fixed, and the only way to prevent Ben from killing is to kill him first (leaving aside whether it is possible to kill Ben in 1977).

Just thinking "out loud" here and I do need to rewatch, but is it possible that Sayid didn't decide to kill Ben _until _the scene with Roger?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Ok, well, his biological mother died in childbirth and we didn't see Ben or his dad holding any 3-foot tall paintings when they arrived on the island, and Roger didn't seem like the painting type. Maybe he had a wallet photo and Ben painted it from that I suppose, but I think it's far more likely that Juliete acted like a mother figure to him after seeing how bad Roger treats him (maybe?). Eh, I'm not sure I convinced even myself there, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
> 
> Sawyer is "getting along" with the kid - my money is on Juliete doing the same.
> 
> ..Jeff


Don't forget, Ben met or saw his mother at least twice that we saw while a kid on the island. He must have recognized her from _something_. We don't know how many times he wound up seeing her. (Which is why I wasn't so sure Ben wasn't telling the truth on Ajira 316 when he said his mother taught him to read.)


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Delta13 said:


> Don't forget, Ben met or saw his mother at least twice that we saw while a kid on the island. He must have recognized her from _something_. We don't know how many times he wound up seeing her. (Which is why I wasn't so sure Ben wasn't telling the truth on Ajira 316 when he said his mother taught him to read.)


There was at least one photo of Roger and Emily in the Linus household in Dharmaville. It was seen in the the Ben back story I believe.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

aintnosin said:


> No, it was J.F. Sebastian.


Nah, it was Jinxo!



hefe said:


> Maybe Ecko, Boone, Shannon, Joanna, the Oceanic Pilot, Nikki, Paulo, Ana Lucia, Libby, Naomi, Danielle, Alex, Karl, Mr. Friendly, Ethan, Charlie, Keamy and his men, Scott and or Steve, and Frogurt aren't dead either...


How could you forget Arzt? Duuuuuude.



cheesesteak said:


> There aren't many of the maddening "Why didn't he/she tell anybody else that crucial nugget of information?" instances this season (at least this half season). They're telling the story without making my head explode.


Well, I was wondering how long the O6 could avoid explaining to Sawyer why they came back, myself. Flaming buses are convenient interruptions but you can only do that so many times.



Philosofy said:


> And did anyone comment on the significance of the title: Sawyer said "He's our you." Not "He's their you." Sawyer IS Dharma now. And why shouldn't he be? What he thought was Dharma was the others, so he has no beef with Dharma.


I thought it was a brilliant line (not realizing it was the episode title) but I think you're reading too much into the word "our" given the situation.



tiams said:


> Speaking of washing machines, does anybody else remember the dryer and washing machine in the Swan?


Gaaaaaaaah!

Remember when we saw our first flash-*forward* and Jack was calling Kate on his cellphone, but we all thought it was a flashback, and I noticed that the cellphone he was using was way too modern for before-the-crash but chalked it up to being just a little props guy mistake to be overlooked? And then at the end we find out it was all a flash-forward and that was the right phone and it was a clue, not a props mistake?

Now you make me think that the washer and dryer _way the heck back in the first episode of season two_ wasn't a props mistake but a major clue... to something!

Gaaaaaaaah!


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Philosofy said:


> And did anyone comment on the significance of the title: Sawyer said "He's our you." Not "He's their you." Sawyer IS Dharma now. And why shouldn't he be? What he thought was Dharma was the others, so he has no beef with Dharma.





Hunter Green said:


> I thought it was a brilliant line (not realizing it was the episode title) but I think you're reading too much into the word "our" given the situation.


I thought it was a reference to the Bizarro Seinfeld episode. I thought it was a direct quote, but I haven't been able to find it.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> And did anyone comment on the significance of the title: Sawyer said "He's our you." Not "He's their you." Sawyer IS Dharma now. And why shouldn't he be? What he thought was Dharma was the others, so he has no beef with Dharma.





Hunter Green said:


> I thought it was a brilliant line (not realizing it was the episode title) but I think you're reading too much into the word "our" given the situation.


I don't think so. He hit it right on the head... Sawyer is Dharma now and considers himself that. Listen to his conversation with Jack. Sawyer uses phrases like "my people." And NEVER uses "them" in reference to Dharma. It's always "us" or "our".

It's Sawyer's perfect situation. He never wanted to leave the island in the first place. All he does is read and do his job and make love to a hot woman. A great life he doesn't want to give up!


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I thought it was a reference to the Bizarro Seinfeld episode. I thought it was a direct quote, but I haven't been able to find it.


The line in Seinfeld (spoken by Elaine) was, "We already have a George." But yeah, same idea.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

The thing is, Sawyer could always have had that life. He worked hard; he's smart and handles people well. Instead he wasted his talents on cons and walked away from every chance at a relationship. Somehow he's changed for the better. He could have gone home on the sub and used his knowledge of the future to get rich. I wonder why he didn't?


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> The thing is, Sawyer could always have had that life. He worked hard; he's smart and handles people well. Instead he wasted his talents on cons and walked away from every chance at a relationship. Somehow he's changed for the better. He could have gone home on the sub and used his knowledge of the future to get rich. I wonder why he didn't?


Maybe killing off his demon (the real Sawyer) helped and he's at peace with his past.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

robbhimself said:


> i have to go back and rewatch, but i got the impression that young ben killed his dad either in the burning van or the house that caught fire when he said something like "he _was_ a bad person", or used another word to describe his dad in the past tense.
> 
> but in the episode mentioned above, didn't his dad die in one of the vans?





aintnosin said:


> Except when he referred to Papa Linus in the past tense.





DevdogAZ said:


> Well, I didn't hear that. But if he did say that and he did kill/hurt his dad, I'd have to say that that clinches it as to whether the past can be changed vs. "what happened, happened."
> 
> Something tells me that if that were actually the case, it wouldn't be coming up for the first time nearly 150 posts into this thread.


Okay, on rewatch, I think I have this minor mystery solved.

In the scene with Sayid right after Ben sets fire to the van ..., they are talking about Ben's dad and how Sayid's dad was a hard man too. Ben then says, "I hate it here." But it could easily be heard as, "I hated him." Especially in that context.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> Ben then says, "I hate it here." But it could easily be heard as, "I hated him."


Was he looking gaunt?


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> The thing is, Sawyer could always have had that life. He worked hard; he's smart and handles people well. Instead he wasted his talents on cons and walked away from every chance at a relationship. Somehow he's changed for the better. He could have gone home on the sub and used his knowledge of the future to get rich. I wonder why he didn't?


I am curious, now, if anyone _has_ gone home on the sub. Roger seemed to think he was stuck there. Juliet hasn't been able to leave. The island is like a roach motel.


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

teknikel said:


> I am curious, now, if anyone _has_ gone home on the sub. Roger seemed to think he was stuck there. Juliet hasn't been able to leave. The island is like a roach motel.


Great question.

If he was to be believed, Tom (aka Mr. Friendly aka Zeke) did make it back to the mainland though not as often as he wanted to. But when he did go back, he liked to splurge.

<cut to a shot of Michael with a disgusted look on his face> LOL.

Some of the people that Ben was working with in LA (the butcher shop) might have been one-time island residents.

I'm guessing those were all via submarine, since the Orchid's donkey wheel exit wasn't used prior to Ben in a very long while.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

hanumang said:


> Great question.
> 
> If he was to be believed, Tom (aka Mr. Friendly aka Zeke) did make it back to the mainland though not as often as he wanted to. But when he did go back, he liked to splurge.
> 
> ...


Thanx for jogging my memory on this. Except for the butcher, they all seemed to have come back and died.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Cearbhaill said:


> Another Lost/True Blood crossover.
> 
> Sanderson is Sheriff Dearborne on True Blood.


For the record, Sanderson was also E.B. Farnum (the hotel owner/mayor) on Deadwood. Sigh. I still miss Deadwood.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Jeeters said:


> Yeah, pretty rare, but some other occurrences...
> 
> Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...





Spoiler



In Bruges.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

mqpickles said:


> Okay, on rewatch, I think I have this minor mystery solved.
> 
> In the scene with Sayid right after Ben sets fire to the van ..., they are talking about Ben's dad and how Sayid's dad was a hard man too. Ben then says, "I hate it here." But it could easily be heard as, "I hated him." Especially in that context.


That makes sense. I had no idea what people were talking about with the "I hated him" line, but I remember the "I hate it here" line distinctly.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

hefe said:


> Was he looking gaunt?


Oh, hell, I didn't even think about that. :up:

But to answer the question, he looked goth.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

hefe said:


> Was he looking gaunt?





mqpickles said:


> Oh, hell, I didn't even think about that. :up:
> 
> But to answer the question, he looked goth.




Reason number 4,815 why I love reading these LOST threads. :up:


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

SoBelle0 said:


> Reason number *4,815* why I love reading these LOST threads. :up:


I see what you did there.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I haven't had much to say on this episode as I was kind of under-whelmed, but I want to post my thoughts so they are on record and I can look back later and say either "Wow, I did not get that episode at the time, but now I see their genius!" or "See, I knew this was going to suck".

There is a cliché that goes: "blank is greater than the sum of its parts" this episode was lesser than the sum of his parts, IMO. I enjoyed most of the individual scenes, but at the end, after getting over the fact that he actually shot Ben; the things that kept coming back to me is the stuff that I found kind of weak. So much just seemed contrived and set-up  yes, I know this is a TV show, and nearly every show, even Lost, has a paint-by-numbers formula to it, but Lost is so deftly made that I usually forget about the formula; we usually cant see the strings that make Peter Pan fly; but this episode was like going to a magic show and seeing the fishing-line coming out of the magicians sleeve or the false-bottom on his magic hat.

After that initial shock of omigosh-he-actually-shot-him, the thought "why didn't he make sure he was dead?" keeps coming to me. I feel that the Bad-Ass guy not making sure a crucial character is dead when he overkills everyone else is a lame TV show ploy like the good guys never running out of bullets and the bad guys having poor aim; it's out of the "killer" character they have made Sayid into, and obviously there just to be a cliffhanger - yeah, I know, I can hear it now; "A cliffhanger on Lost?! Oh the humanity! I mean they've never done that before" 

I know it's one of their trademarks  and thats kind of my point, they usually do it beautifully, which is why the ham-handed execution in this episode really stood out to me; like when Kate is all "I only know why I came back..."; cue the flaming bus - lame. 

I read an article on EW.com this morning and their Lost writer, Jeff Jensen, said something about what if Ben's in a coma for the rest of the season and that's what this season hinges on - will Ben die or wake up? I will be among the first people to let out an audible groan if whether Ben lives or dies is drawn out beyond the next episode.

But back to Sayid; I have never really bought Sayid as super bad-ass assassin type, he was always the mechanically inclined communications expert/torturer  torturing is related to communications in that its about getting someone to give you information. Also, it seemed to me that they were laying the groundwork for Island stuff turning Sayid into the torturer (bad person) that he was, since it was Kelvin who first introduced Sayid to torture; instead of him being a "born killer". Anyway, he was a torturer, but not a killer. And I just don't buy Sayid kicking down doors and striking terror in his victims; he's just not that imposing of a figure, IMO. It seems to me, he was really announced as the Bad-Ass in the season 3 finale when he broke that Other's neck with his legs while he was tied up. My theory is that Sayids current role in the overall story was really intended for Mr. Eko; and when they had to write Eko out because the actor didn't want to do it anymore, they had to find someone else for the role, and Sayid was closest to fitting the bill (and out the window went the happy ending with Nadia). This is why Sayid's child flashback was similar to Eko's in that they both did killing so their brother wouldn't have to.

And you know what? Oldham was a big dud IMO, what was the big deal about having him question Sayid... "Psychotic"? Dharma's version of Sayid? I dunno, a dosed sugar-cube seems a lot more tame to me than bamboo shoots under the fingernails... And what's with the ton of Dharma logos recently, I think Hurley's Chef-Boy-Ardee-Station logo borders on self-parody. The logos used to seem esoteric and mysterious, like some kind of Dharma code. I mean the significance of the Arrow logo for Horace sure seems a lot more vague than the chefs hat for the chef or a star logo for sheriff Sawyer. I'm sure the Dharma blacksmith has a logo with a horseshoe...

Anyway, this post is much longer than I though and I need to go back to work, I'm sure I'll be back on the Kool-aid this time tomorrow...


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

I think, to respond to you latrobe, that this episode hinges on how much you accept Sayid for who he is. He is waging a war against who he thinks he is and who everybody else, including Ben, thinks he is. He has always shown himself to be a capable Iraqi Republican Guard, trained in warfare.

Sayid shot Ben, yes, but this was different from a cold-blooded assassination, where he was being paid to ensure the death of someone else. This was a 12-year-old boy. You can see how conflicted he was when he took the gun out and popped off a round. That was all he was capable of doing at that point. One round was already too much, and he ran away. How would YOU feel if you just shot a boy?


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## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

Didn't Sayid also leave Keamy for dead without making sure, which led to Keamy entering the frozen donkey wheel station with Ben and Locke? Of course, if Sayid had killed Keamy then, he would have blown up the freighter earlier, which would have had its own consequences. But the point is they've been down this road before - Sayid really needs to make sure he takes out his victims. Wonder how many of the guys he killed for Ben are still alive?


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## GaryGnu (Jan 22, 2003)

I have not seen last night's episode yet. I just hope it doesn't start with Ben saying "I figured, what the hell" as he opens his shirt revealing a bullet proof vest.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

GaryGnu said:


> I have not seen last night's episode yet. I just hope it doesn't start with Ben saying "I figured, what the hell" as he opens his shirt revealing a bullet proof vest.


Don't worry. It was a door to a cast iron stove.


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