# Mini is useless - V87 errors



## mm2margaret

So, I have a Mini that has essentially become useless.

I am constantly getting bombarded with v87 errors, often followed by c422 errors, and I am completely unable to use it at all.

It was fine for a while, but of late it's become a liability. I just wonder if Tivo will ever figure out streaming. Other products can do it, but Tivo just can't as far as I'm concerned. 

I've done the usual: I've researched this forum, the Tivo forum, restarted everything, re-initialized the Moca connection on the Mini, the Roamio, assigned static IP addresses, and nothing stops the v87 errors, which means the product is useless.

I should say that the Mini is connected via Moca to the Roamio. I've read somewhere that some folks have suggested running ethernet cable between the Roamio and their Mini's, but here on this forum, there are plenty of folks who have tried this and are also having problems. And, as Moca is the recommended way to connect the Mini to the Roamio, and it did work for a while, not sure what that would accomplish.

Love to hear if anyone has any ideas....


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## CrispyCritter

You have network problems. This isn't TiVo figuring out streaming; it is hardware or a setting somewhere - it definitely could be the TiVo with hardware problems.

I would think that changing networks is the obvious way to debug. Connect via ethernet and see what happens.

The two main problem paths to look at are
1, Hardware on your Moca network
2. Somehow having gotten two networks going. Plenty of people have run into this where two out of the three networks (Moca, wireless, ethernet) are being used, with the expected confusion and errors.


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## sangs

I understand your frustration, as I experienced the exact same problem with the Mini while using a MoCA connection. However, since switching to an Ethernet connection the Minis have worked flawlessly (knock wood). Is Ethernet a possibility for you at all? One of my Ethernet connections is through a MoCA adapter - and that was the most problematic Mini in my setup when it was using only MoCA.


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## dianebrat

As stated above, it sounds like you have a network issue that's manifesting in the MoCA setup. I'm not sure where the scads of folks having it still happen with ethernet is coming from, most folks say that going ethernet resolves issues. MoCA is sensitive to all sorts of wiring issues, especially bad connections, older unterminated connections, bad splitters, etc.

I'd say the first step would be to test with ethernet, even if it means moving the mini for a day or so for testing.


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## mm2margaret

So, while I can run about 50 ft of Ethernet cable around the stairs and through a door as a temporary test, it's not practical to leave it there. So even if it works, I don't know what good long term it would be. Running Ethernet cable just for the Mini, because it can't do what Tivo says it can do, run on Moca, seems unreasonable given that I've invested a lot of money in Moca adapters, etc.

I've been around the bend with Tivo; I've had HDs, two Premieres and now this configuration of Roamio and the Mini.

Folks, other vendors can do streaming. Sling can do it, others as well. It's not rocket science. But Tivo just can't.

MRV is broken and it can't get up. That's my opinion.

I'll let you all know what good running 50-75 ft of Ethernet cable through the house will do.

Jesus, what a pain. Sorry, but I'm pissed.


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## ncfoster

Have you performed troubleshooting on your coax wiring at all? I am not an expert in this arena, but if this is your first foray with MoCA, it would seem quite possible that it would be an issue with the coax, be it a splitter/amp issue, the need for a PoE filter, or just sub-standard wire.


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## mm2margaret

ncfoster said:


> Have you performed troubleshooting on your coax wiring at all? I am not an expert in this arena, but if this is your first foray with MoCA, it would seem quite possible that it would be an issue with the coax, be it a splitter/amp issue, the need for a PoE filter, or just sub-standard wire.


I appreciate all of the attempts to help, by the way. I do appreciate you taking the time to post.


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## CrispyCritter

mm2margaret said:


> So, while I can run about 50 ft of Ethernet cable around the stairs and through a door as a temporary test, it's not practical to leave it there. So even if it works, I don't know what good long term it would be. Running Ethernet cable just for the Mini, because it can't do what Tivo says it can do, run on Moca, seems unreasonable given that I've invested a lot of money in Moca adapters, etc.
> 
> I've been around the bend with Tivo; I've had HDs, two Premieres and now this configuration of Roamio and the Mini.
> 
> Folks, other vendors can do streaming. Sling can do it, others as well. It's not rocket science. But Tivo just can't.
> 
> MRV is broken and it can't get up. That's my opinion.
> 
> I'll let you all know what good running 50-75 ft of Ethernet cable through the house will do.
> 
> Jesus, what a pain. Sorry, but I'm pissed.


I'm sorry you're having problems, but how do you know you should be pissed at TiVo and not at your wiring?

Thousands of folks are running their Minis on MoCa. There is something that is different in your Moca setup than their's, given that you have identical software and supposedly identical hardware. Whether it be cable amps, bad splitters, attenuators, loose connections, bad wires, bad Moca routers, bad TiVo hardware or whatever, something is different and causing you problems. Comparatively few of the possible problems can be TiVo's fault.


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## lgnad

"Tivo just cant do streaming"

My mini and XL4 have been 99.99% reliable. A couple of weird glitches on the initial software, and rock solid since.

Apparently I am delusional and am not watching it stream every night when I go to bed for an hour or two, mostly over Moca to its host, or occasionally over another hop of ethernet through the XL4 to the base premiere. 

So, either you have a dud unit, or your wiring has issues.

The suggestion is to try it over ethernet as a first troubleshooting step. If it doesn't work over ethernet, then you likely have a dud mini or Roamio. Your other choice is to move the Mini to a location that has ethernet temporarily instead of running cable through the house.

Or, you can choose to skip that step and begin troubleshooting your coax problems. Or, just complain its Tivo's fault.

What other steps have you already taken? What results did you find? What adjustments have you made based on those findings?

Have you rebooted everything, including your cable modem, router, switches, the mini and the Roamio?

What model Roamio? a base? What device is creating the moca network, the Roamio or do you have an adapter?

How exactly is everything configured? What is your coax wiring layout/configuration? What changes have you made to the wiring to combat your problems? Are you OTA, Fios or cable? If cable, do you have a POE filter? Have you checked for open taps on splitters, old, out of spec splitters, bad terminations on cables, weird configuration of splitters leading to low signal levels, etc

What do the network diagnostics for Moca say on both ends?


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## dswallow

If you have a spare coax cable long enough, connect the Roamio directly to the Mini. If it's a Roamio Base, use a single splitter and also connect the MOCA adapter you're using into the cabling, but keep it disconnected from everything else.

If your Mini is then able to communicate reliably with the Roamio, you'll need to look at the remainder of your coax wiring configuration to identify what sort of changes you can try making.

If you are still unable to get reliable communication between the Roamio and Mini, then one of the two devices has a problem and needs to be fixed.


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## bs0755

I am having the same problem with my Mini, and I have a ethernet connection (brand new cable). This mini was previously hooked up to a Premiere, and I never had a problem. I just purchased a Roamio Plus, and this is when I started having issues. I am also getting error messages when watching a transferred program on the Roamio itself.


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## dianebrat

mm2margaret said:


> I'll let you all know what good running 50-75 ft of Ethernet cable through the house will do.
> Jesus, what a pain. Sorry, but I'm pissed.





dianebrat said:


> I'd say the first step would be to test with ethernet, even if it means moving the mini for a day or so for testing.


There's no reason to run a 50ft + run of ethernet and all the encompassing hassle, you can test it by just picking up the Mini and bringing it to the other room.
I'm not suggesting that it's permanent, just that it's a simple and easy way to test and make sure it's not the Mini and Tivo that are the problem and help you narrow it down to the wiring.


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## mm2margaret

CrispyCritter said:


> I'm sorry you're having problems, but how do you know you should be pissed at TiVo and not at your wiring?
> 
> Thousands of folks are running their Minis on MoCa. There is something that is different in your Moca setup than their's, given that you have identical software and supposedly identical hardware. Whether it be cable amps, bad splitters, attenuators, loose connections, bad wires, bad Moca routers, bad TiVo hardware or whatever, something is different and causing you problems. Comparatively few of the possible problems can be TiVo's fault.


Well, let's be honest here. Sure, my Coax could be the problem, but the point is that if you've had any experience with Tivo, you know that they often bring out half baked products.

Point One: I bought one of the early Premiere's with one of the worst software releases in history, and it took about a year before they fixed it. Yes, I spent hours, actually I think it was days, troubleshooting it, and nothing worked, until Tivo fixed their product (software).
Point Two: I bought the slide remote, which worked sometimes and then stopped working. Then magically, it would start working again. Then it would stop. Again hours spent troubleshooting with NO fix. Money, time and effort a total waste.
Point Three: If you check this forum, v87 errors are listed numerous times. Currently there are three posts with v87 errors. There are many other posts with other errors.

So, my take is Tivo brought another questionable piece of hardware, promoted using your existing Coax cable to sell it, and sure, for some it works. For many, it does not.

That's not good enough, in my book.

And, you know, in my upstairs bedroom, I installed Chromecast, and I use my wireless to cast Hulu videos to the TV. The Chromecast uses my wireless, which upstairs has the worst reception in my home. Guess what? Chromecast can stream. On s***ty wireless, all the way down to router and back, and yet, it works.

I repeat: streaming is not rocket science. Sling can do it, Chromecast can do it and do it on s***ty wireless.

Tivo can't. I say, no matter what the problem is, Tivo just can't stream, unless the connections are nearly perfect, which, I feel, is not a reasonable level of performance given the price they are charging for the product.

I have connected it via Ethernet, and we'll see if that fixes it, or if I have bad hardware. But really, I just want my money back.


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## mm2margaret

Just to cover my bases...

I have a Roamio Pro.
I have installed a POE Filter, contrary to Comcast's advice.
I have statically addressed my Roamio and my Mini
I have rebooted everything
I have spent hours troubleshooting this.
Wired Ethernet works partially.
I will contact Tivo for an RMA at this point

But, my comment stands, that when it comes to streaming, People should not buy a Mini. I wish I had bought a Sling.


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## bradleys

Well, the Mini and Sling do completely different things...

Do you have a powered coax splitter on your network? That can wreck havoc on a Moca signal!

Do you have the ability to trace your COAX line and determine how many splitters are in the line between your Mini and the source? You can generally assume there isn't a splitter "in the wall", so if you can trace the termination points you should be able to count them.

Is your Roamio acting as your MOCA bridge? If yes, you will want to track to number of splitters from the Roamio back to the common connection point (generally the source).

The Mini is one of the most reliable products TiVo has put out in a long time, so, unless you received a bad unit, the issue is hidden someplace in your network.


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## lessd

mm2margaret said:


> Just to cover my bases...
> 
> I have a Roamio Pro.
> I have installed a POE Filter, contrary to Comcast's advice.
> I have statically addressed my Roamio and my Mini
> I have rebooted everything
> I have spent hours troubleshooting this.
> Wired Ethernet works partially.
> I will contact Tivo for an RMA at this point
> 
> But, my comment stands, that when it comes to streaming, People should not buy a Mini. I wish I had bought a Sling.


Been using a Mini from the first day I could purchase one at Best Buy, got the error the first day I set the system up VIA MoCA, the next day all worked great, and I have never had a problem, so I have to conclude that your Mini problem is a problem in your home or with the Mini itself, not Minis in general.


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## dianebrat

lessd said:


> Been using a Mini from the first day I could purchase one at Best Buy, got the error the first day I set the system up VIA MoCA, the next day all worked great, and I have never had a problem, so I have to conclude that your Mini problem is a problem in your home or with the Mini itself, not Minis in general.


Same here, and my Mini has been on MoCA, Ethernet, and now ethernet over PNA, it's always worked flawlessly.

The Mini architecture isn't the issue here, either there's a defective unit or a network problem in the OPs home. Note that a network issue could easily go across the types of network such as wireless, MoCA, and RJ45.


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## mm2margaret

Folks:

First of all, if I have network problems, how is it possible for Chromecast to work perfectly and stream perfectly on my crummy incompetent wireless network?

And I would also say that just because the Mini works for you does not mean its' design is flawless. A device that works 80-90% of the time is neither a good device nor a reliable device.

Here's the truth: the reason Tivo does not sell the Mini as a wired ethernet only device is because it wouldn't sell. Few homeowners have the desire or the funds to run ethernet cable for such a device. But that's really what the Mini is: a wired ethernet only device.


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## CrispyCritter

mm2margaret said:


> Folks:
> 
> First of all, if I have network problems, how is it possible for Chromecast to work perfectly and stream perfectly on my crummy incompetent wireless network?


Because the two networks have nothing at all to do with each other! MoCa and wireless are entirely different transport mechanisms. Why do you expect a possible problem with wiring in MoCa to affect a wireless network?

The fact that you don't know anything about networks is not a reflection on you at all. However, blaming TiVo for your network problems is ludicrous, given that lack of knowledge.


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## HarperVision

mm2Margaret, where is your POE filter installed?


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## aristoBrat

mm2margaret said:


> Point Three: If you check this forum, v87 errors are listed numerous times. Currently there are three posts with v87 errors. There are many other posts with other errors.


There are 392 threads in this sub-forum. 13 of those threads contain one or more posts that have the term "V87" in them. Thats 3.13%.

There are 7,875 individual posts in this sub-forum. 26 of those posts contain the term "V87" in them. That's 0.33%.

IMO, that's not numerous.



> And, you know, in my upstairs bedroom, I installed Chromecast, and I use my wireless to cast Hulu videos to the TV. The Chromecast uses my wireless, which upstairs has the worst reception in my home. Guess what? Chromecast can stream. On s***ty wireless, all the way down to router and back, and yet, it works.


You know your wireless is sh***ty, but you seem oblivious to the fact that the coax cables in your house can be making your MoCa network _even more_ sh***ty than your wireless network. 



> I repeat: streaming is not rocket science. Sling can do it, Chromecast can do it and do it on s***ty wireless.


Can you run 3+ Chromecasts at the same time, each streaming a different show in 1080?

That's the type of environment that streaming has to work in where things get a little more complex than how you do stuff in your house.

Rocket science? Hardly. But setting up one Chromecast (regardless of the network condition) and proclaiming "That, folks, is how streaming is done" is pretty silly.


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## mm2margaret

CrispyCritter said:


> Because the two networks have nothing at all to do with each other! MoCa and wireless are entirely different transport mechanisms. Why do you expect a possible problem with wiring in MoCa to affect a wireless network?
> 
> The fact that you don't know anything about networks is not a reflection on you at all. However, blaming TiVo for your network problems is ludicrous, given that lack of knowledge.


I'm a CCIE, idiot. Look it up, just in case you don't know what that is.

And, just for the record, I never said that Moca and Wireless were the same networks. Of course, they're different. The Wireless network is, or should be, far inferior to it's ability to carry network data, video data, given how poor the signal is in my bedroom.

The comparision is valid. A not very robust wireless network environment, versus a functioning coax cable environment, at least for the cable signals to my bedroom, which work fine, EXCEPT for the Mini.


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## mm2margaret

HarperVision said:


> mm2Margaret, where is your POE filter installed?


At the POE into my house


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## HarperVision

mm2margaret said:


> At the POE into my house


 Cool, just checking.


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## BigJimOutlaw

Arguing aside...

Network issue resolution with moca is usually the same.

- Splitters and barrel connectors between devices should be rated for at least 1000 MHz and not too old/weathered.
- Any amps in the way should also be bi-directional 1000 MHz. Ideally they're located at the POE anyway.
- A POE filter is beneficial.
- There's always the chance a coax line itself is too damaged, old, or not solidly connected somewhere.


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## mm2margaret

HarperVision said:


> Cool, just checking.


No problem. Non-abusive attempts to help are appreciated. I would prefer to resolve this issue. I would prefer that the Mini to work, rather than not work.

On another note, about the cabling in the house. This house was cabled with coax in every room. What that means is there are no amplifiers or splitters in the house.

The Mini has a single run of cable from the wall to it. The Roamio has a single run of coax cable to it. I have not installed any splitters, nor have I found any. It is possible there are some, as they may have been installed when the house was built. But again, I haven't found any. There may be some in the attic. But again, every room receives cable tv signals, and does it perfectly. I have never had any issues with the TV signal in any of the rooms.

There was an Actiontec Moca Adapter plugged into the Mini, which has been removed. Plugged in or not, it does not make any difference.


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## jrtroo

mm2margaret said:


> I'm a CCIE, idiot. Look it up, just in case you don't know what that is.


Wow, completely unnecessary. Nobody knows your expertise, and you certainly did not come across as a "CCIE" in your email thread or lack of professionalism. The folks here are trying to help you.


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## marklyn

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Arguing aside...
> 
> Network issue resolution with moca is usually the same.
> 
> - Splitters and barrel connectors between devices should be rated for at least 1000 MHz and not too old/weathered.
> - Any amps in the way should also be bi-directional 1000 MHz. Ideally they're located at the POE anyway.
> - A POE filter is beneficial.
> - There's always the chance a coax line itself is too damaged, old, or not solidly connected somewhere.


About a week or so ago, after a TW service visit for a missing channel on my lineup (whole 'nother issue), I started getting V87 errors on both my mini's and I'm also using MOCA from my Roamio plus. I'd note that my coax in the attic is all fairly new, heavy gauge used for my previous satellite setup.
The only things that changed during that time frame was:
1) I received a patch (update) due to occasional V112 errors (fixed V112 errors)
2) TW Service man replaced my 3 way splitter in attic (5-2040Mhz) with his own 3 way splitter.
3) TW service man took off my POE filter (which was right before 3 way splitter) since he wasn't familiar with what it was/does.

So I did these three things:
1) put back my 3 way splitter that I specifically bought for my MOCA network.
2) Changed my IP configuration on my Roamio and 2 mini's to static IP's.
3) Put the POE filter back on where I had it.

Since then I have not had a single V87 error and nothing else has changed other than the two things I mentioned.
The fact that I started getting these errors on both my mini's after TW switched out my splitter was my problem in my opinion. My dB signals never really changed but somehow his splitter must have not had the same range (it wasn't labeled) as the one I bought does.

I think I also read that the POE filter helps by reflecting signals back into your MOCA network instead of letting them 'bleed' outside of your network

Either way, for the past 3 weeks, no more V87 errors.


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## mm2margaret

jrtroo said:


> Wow, completely unnecessary. Nobody knows your expertise, and you certainly did not come across as a "CCIE" in your email thread or lack of professionalism. The folks here are trying to help you.


With all due respect to you, I feel that some of the remarks posted here were nothing more than abuse. Yes, there have been some helpful remarks, actually the majority of remarks and comments have been, but some, in particular two, were not, and were very personal. I am a very experienced Network Engineer, and a very experienced Tivo owner. I've had six of them. My comments, up until the remark you referenced, were only about Tivo and some of it's failures, which should be fair comment in this forum.

But when it becomes personal, yes, I will fight back.


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## marklyn

mm2margaret said:


> With all due respect to you, I feel that some of the remarks posted here were nothing more than abuse. Yes, there have been some helpful remarks, actually the majority of remarks and comments have been, but some, in particular two, were not, and were very personal. I am a very experienced Network Engineer, and a very experienced Tivo owner. I've had six of them. My comments, up until the remark you referenced, were only about Tivo and some of it's failures, which should be fair comment in this forum.
> 
> But when it becomes personal, yes, I will fight back.


I too have been in the network and computer support business since 1985. One thing I've learned about these forums is that despite my computer technical background, I have to be thick skinned to get what I need here. Reading posts doesn't convey the same way as if you were face to face and obviously it's much easier to to mis-read intentions.

The hardest thing for me to recognize is that while I am a really good computer support analyst and respectable network analyst, I might suck at the cable TV and "all things" MOCA infrastructure. Some things that I think should be 'logical' aren't. I don't always understand why some things work and others don't.
I'm now always ready to accept that some (all?) blame of a particular problem is really on my end (cabling, splitters, etc.) until proven differently.


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## mm2margaret

marklyn said:


> I too have been in the network and computer support business since 1985. One thing I've learned about these forums is that despite my computer technical background, I have to be thick skinned to get what I need here. Reading posts doesn't convey the same way as if you were face to face and obviously it's much easier to to mis-read intentions.
> 
> The hardest thing for me to recognize is that while I am a really good computer support analyst and respectable network analyst, I might suck at the cable TV and "all things" MOCA infrastructure. Some things that I think should be 'logical' aren't. I don't always understand why some things work and others don't.
> I'm now always ready to accept that some (all?) blame of a particular problem is really on my end (cabling, splitters, etc.) until proven differently.


Look, reasonable, and reasoned comments like yours are fine. But really nothing short of getting a coax cable tester, and going through the house connection by connection, there's no point. And I might still do that. I used to use them with the old Ethernet coax, but nobody I know has one anymore, but I guess I could buy one, I suppose.

As I mentioned earlier, there's no obvious splitters or amplifiers, unless they're in the attic, which is covered by insulation. I have not installed any splitters or amplifiers.

Is it worth it to rip through the attic disturbing all of the insulation searching for a potential problem? Is it worth to run Ethernet cable just to support the Mini? Well, for me no, it's not.

Bottom line is that Tivo got me again with the Mini. Like the early Premieres and the Slide Remote, the Mini is, another example of a product that kind of works.

The Mini cost me about $250, and I'm not ripping up my attic or running Ethernet cable just to support it. I'll sell it on E-Bay and take the loss.


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## aristoBrat

mm2margaret said:


> On another note, about the cabling in the house. This house was cabled with coax in every room. What that means is there are no amplifiers or splitters in the house.


If you don't have a splitter somewhere in the house that concatenates all of the lines, then each room would be on its own isolated segment. Your Mini would have never worked. You would also need a seperate cable company demarc for each room.


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## aristoBrat

mm2margaret said:


> I will contact Tivo for an RMA at this point





mm2margaret said:


> I'll sell it on E-Bay and take the loss.


Would TiVo not RMA it for you?


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## mm2margaret

aristoBrat said:


> Would TiVo not RMA it for you?


Yes, I think they will, but I'm not keeping it. Once I get it back, I'll just sell it with the lifetime sub, and take my losses.

I already bought an old Premiere, which I'll use for now.....I used to have two Premiere's, with cable cards, etc and I sold them both. Wish I hadn't.


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## Grakthis

I've said this before... but guys, it's always worth it to run ethernet. Always. Do it. seriously, suck it up and run the ethernet. Not just for your mini... to make your life better for all future technologies too.

I but a new device, and I don't have to deal with wireless signal, wireless security, blah blah blah. I just plug it in and it works.


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## eric102

Grakthis said:


> I've said this before... but guys, it's always worth it to run ethernet. Always. Do it. seriously, suck it up and run the ethernet. Not just for your mini... to make your life better for all future technologies too.
> 
> I but a new device, and I don't have to deal with wireless signal, wireless security, blah blah blah. I just plug it in and it works.


+1, I've been converting all my phone outlets in my house to Ethernet and all is good in my electronics world (TV's, computers, Tivo's, Roku's, etc). My Mini has been flawless since day 1 and streams from 3 different Tivo's (two of them 2 tuner Premiers) with zero glitches so I'm convinced that the mini is well designed for what it does.


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## lessd

aristoBrat said:


> If you don't have a splitter somewhere in the house that concatenates all of the lines, then each room would be on its own isolated segment. Your Mini would have never worked. You would also need a seperate cable company demarc for each room.


I custom built my home in the late 90s but I did run RG6 quad shield from one point in the cellar to each cable outlet, so MoCA was easy for me, but I had a friend that required outside cable splitters to be removed and the cable run directly into the cellar to get his system to run using MoCA, a real pain.


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## BigJimOutlaw

mm2margaret said:


> The Mini has a single run of cable from the wall to it. The Roamio has a single run of coax cable to it. I have not installed any splitters, nor have I found any. It is possible there are some, as they may have been installed when the house was built. But again, I haven't found any. There may be some in the attic. But again, every room receives cable tv signals, and does it perfectly. I have never had any issues with the TV signal in any of the rooms.


Surely there is at least one central splitter somewhere near where the cable service enters the house. You mentioned installing a POE filter. What is the POE filter connected to, if not a splitter? The POE filter should be installed on the input side of the central splitter. If you don't know whether it is or not, it could be hindering more than helping.

Once you find it, if there aren't enough outputs at the central splitter to feed all TV outlets, then you know there are other splitters someplace else too.


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## lessd

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Surely there is at least one central splitter somewhere near where the cable service enters the house. You mentioned installing a POE filter. What is the POE filter connected to, if not a splitter? The POE filter should be installed on the input side of the central splitter. If you don't know whether it is or not, it could be hindering more than helping.
> 
> Once you find it, if there aren't enough outputs at the central splitter to feed all TV outlets, then you know there are other splitters someplace else too.


Some homes/Apt. were built with taps for each cable outlet, saved time and cable but I don't know how such taps would work with MoCA. The POE filter should never be used until your MoCA system is up and running well, then, at you option, install the filter at cable input. I am sure people are not sitting on you cable hoping to lock onto your MoCA signal the second you turn it on. You won't find 1 in a thousand people who even knows what a MoCA signal is.


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## Grakthis

eric102 said:


> +1, I've been converting all my phone outlets in my house to Ethernet and all is good in my electronics world (TV's, computers, Tivo's, Roku's, etc). My Mini has been flawless since day 1 and streams from 3 different Tivo's (two of them 2 tuner Premiers) with zero glitches so I'm convinced that the mini is well designed for what it does.


I'm getting ready to put my house on the market, and I know the first thing I will have to do, before I even move in, is run Cat5e or Cat6 to every bedroom and living space in the house.... I'm just ready for it. I know my wife is going to want to repaint every room anyways.... so, time to break out the drill, jig saw and fish tape and start running the cables! Patching drywall anymore is second nature with all the work I've had to do on my current house.

The one thing I haven't had to do in my current house is run ACROSS the joists... just pure luck with how the house is laid out (crawl space and some unfinished attic space), i could always run WITH them. I know this is going to come up at some point in the new house and I'll have to figure out a good way to do it.


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## eric102

If you only need to go through a couple of studs/joists then one of those long semi flexible drill bits will work, if more than that then start cutting holes in the sheet rock every 4-5 feet or so to use the bit. My phone jacks were all Cat5 so the conversion to Ethernet was easy, just had to buy the test equipment, a couple tools and the jacks.


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## Ieolus

Have you tried without the POE filter or reversing it? I read somewhere on these forums that installing it the wrong way hoses MOCA.


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## lessd

Ieolus said:


> Have you tried without the POE filter or reversing it? I read somewhere on these forums that installing it the wrong way hoses MOCA.


As I said above you don't need a POE filter when you first set up your MoCA system, don't even think of using a POE filter until you MoCA network system is working, the odds that someone is just waiting to get on your MoCA network is ridiculous, after all is working then you can put the POE filter on if it will make you feel better.


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## dswallow

Ieolus said:


> Have you tried without the POE filter or reversing it? I read somewhere on these forums that installing it the wrong way hoses MOCA.


There's nothing directional about a POE filter.


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## Grakthis

eric102 said:


> If you only need to go through a couple of studs/joists then one of those long semi flexible drill bits will work, if more than that then start cutting holes in the sheet rock every 4-5 feet or so to use the bit. My phone jacks were all Cat5 so the conversion to Ethernet was easy, just had to buy the test equipment, a couple tools and the jacks.


Yeah, that's what I was planning on doing but my main thing was researching the regulations on drilling holes in joists. I honestly am not sure if there's a point where you've drilled too many holes and now you're hurt the integrity of the wall.

But I am definitely getting one of those flexible drill bits.


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## lessd

Grakthis said:


> Yeah, that's what I was planning on doing but my main thing was researching the regulations on drilling holes in joists. I honestly am not sure if there's a point where you've drilled too many holes and now you're hurt the integrity of the wall.
> 
> But I am definitely getting one of those flexible drill bits.


One small hole for an cat cable will not be the straw that broke the camel's back in any stud, I have built many homes (years ago) and only the TGI studs/beams have any standards on holes and the holes you can make in TGI are already pre-marked.
Also make sure you don't drill into any pipes on the other side of a stud your drilling a hole in.


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## eric102

lessd said:


> One small hole for an cat cable will not be the straw that broke the camel's back in any stud, I have built many homes (years ago) and only the TGI studs/beams have any standards on holes and the holes you can make in TGI are already pre-marked.
> Also make sure you don't drill into any pipes on the other side of a stud your drilling a hole in.


Yep, in can be interesting at times, water pipes, wires, heat ducts, central vacuum pipes and even fiberglass insulation can be a problem when it wraps up in a ball around the bit. Have fun!


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## Ieolus

dswallow said:


> There's nothing directional about a POE filter.


Just relaying something I read. I don't use a POE filter myself on my MOCA network.


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## lessd

Ieolus said:


> Just relaying something I read. I don't use a POE filter myself on my MOCA network.


People should not use the POE filter until their MoCA system is fully working without problems, the chance of a MoCA hack is almost nonexistent as MoCA networks are so new compared to say WiFi.


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## dswallow

lessd said:


> People should not use the POE filter until their MoCA system is fully working without problems, the chance of a MoCA hack is almost nonexistent as MoCA networks are so new compared to say WiFi.


That's not completely true as two devices each trying to be the ones creating a MOCA network at any given frequency are not compatible and might result in strange behaviors if such contention occurs intermittently... barely enough signal for your devices to see it sometimes, etc.

It's a lot less likely to be a problem the further away (in coax cable measurement) from any possible other cable subscriber, simply because of losses per foot over coax essentially accomplishing the same thing a POE filter accomplishes.


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## Grakthis

lessd said:


> One small hole for an cat cable will not be the straw that broke the camel's back in any stud, I have built many homes (years ago) and only the TGI studs/beams have any standards on holes and the holes you can make in TGI are already pre-marked.
> Also make sure you don't drill into any pipes on the other side of a stud your drilling a hole in.


That's good advice. Thanks for the info!


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## lessd

dswallow said:


> That's not completely true as two devices each trying to be the ones creating a MOCA network at any given frequency are not compatible and might result in strange behaviors if such contention occurs intermittently... barely enough signal for your devices to see it sometimes, etc.
> 
> It's a lot less likely to be a problem the further away (in coax cable measurement) from any possible other cable subscriber, simply because of losses per foot over coax essentially accomplishing the same thing a POE filter accomplishes.


Yes, but what are the odds of one of your neighbors also having a MoCA setup and also not using a POE filter, and be close enough to you to cause interference? I think that is very low possibility at this time as MoCA is too new. When smart TVs and routers start having built in MoCA the problem may get greater, as of now WiFi is the new built in adapter addition to electronics. (last few years)


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## dianebrat

lessd said:


> Yes, but what are the odds of one of your neighbors also having a MoCA setup and also not using a POE filter, and be close enough to you to cause interference? I think that is very low possibility at this time as MoCA is too new. When smart TVs and routers start having built in MoCA the problem may get greater, as of now WiFi is the new built in adapter addition to electronics. (last few years)


Not necessarily so, 
We did a MoCA install at my Dad's house and I hadn't yet gotten the POE, there was a call to him from Comcast within a few days, a neighbor was having issues, the POE resolved them.


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## lessd

dianebrat said:


> Not necessarily so,
> We did a MoCA install at my Dad's house and I hadn't yet gotten the POE, there was a call to him from Comcast within a few days, a neighbor was having issues, the POE resolved them.


So the neighbor was not using a POE filter ?? or was and still having issues that your Dads POE filter fixed. 
Why did Comcast come to your Dads home?, is Comcast now looking for a MoCA signal on their outside cable ??.
Hard to believe the MoCA signal would survive going outside your Dads home through the cable drop/tap at the poll than back into your Dads neighbor tap with power enough to interfere with the signal at the neighbors home. Maybe this MoCA signal is more pervasive than I thought.


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## dianebrat

lessd said:


> So the neighbor was not using a POE filter ?? or was and still having issues that your Dads POE filter fixed.
> Why did Comcast come to your Dads home?, is Comcast now looking for a MoCA signal on their outside cable ??.
> Hard to believe the MoCA signal would survive going outside your Dads home through the cable drop/tap at the poll than back into your Dads neighbor tap with power enough to interfere with the signal at the neighbors home. Maybe this MoCA signal is more pervasive than I thought.


Neighbor apparently had issues and called Comcast support, I don't know if they had MoCA or not, I just know they called Comcast, the tech came out, reviewed, then tracked down my dad and said "hey, we're getting data leakage from you, you need to fix that" at that time Dad called me, I let him know we need a POE, and that satisfied the tech, I then installed it a few days later.

FWIW Dad is in a very VERY high tech neighborhood, house in front of him has one of the original Android peeps in it.


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## mm2margaret

Well, at least for me!

And it wasn't cheap, but I bought the latest, most expensive powerline adapters (Linksys AV2), and hooked up the Mini to Roamio via a switch.

And, it works. I thought after all the stuff I stirred up, I thought I should at least tell you all what finally solved my problem.

Not really happy that the Moca didn't work, but at least something is working...


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## marklyn

mm2margaret said:


> Well, at least for me!
> 
> And it wasn't cheap, but I bought the latest, most expensive powerline adapters (Linksys AV2), and hooked up the Mini to Roamio via a switch.
> 
> And, it works. I thought after all the stuff I stirred up, I thought I should at least tell you all what finally solved my problem.
> 
> Not really happy that the Moca didn't work, but at least something is working...


Either way, glad you have a solution, maybe not your preferred one, but a solution. I'm happy for you.


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## dianebrat

mm2margaret said:


> And it wasn't cheap, but I bought the latest, most expensive powerline adapters (Linksys AV2), and hooked up the Mini to Roamio via a switch


Amusingly enough I'm the local PNA evangelist, and this was one of the rare threads I didn't mention them in


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## mm2margaret

dianebrat said:


> Amusingly enough I'm the local PNA evangelist, and this was one of the rare threads I didn't mention them in


Well, I'm not really happy about it. I feel Tivo got me again.....but at least I have the option of using the Premiere I bought, and dump the Mini, or keep the Mini. That's something, I suppose.

I should have known.....I really wish I hadn't bought the Mini. It just wasn't worth the trouble.


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## CloudAtlas

mm2margaret said:


> Well, I'm not really happy about it. I feel Tivo got me again.....but at least I have the option of using the Premiere I bought, and dump the Mini, or keep the Mini. That's something, I suppose.
> 
> I should have known.....I really wish I hadn't bought the Mini. It just wasn't worth the trouble.


TiVo over MoCA rules. You just can't get any easier than unhooking the coax from a cable box and screwing it into the Mini and setting networking to MoCA. Of course it helps when your provider is FiOS and all your coax is fairly new commercial grade. Knew nothing about MoCA until being told how simple setting up Mini's would be on FiOS. So I replaced 5 cable boxes at my folks house with 4 Minis and a Roamio Plus.

Worked so well I setup MoCA in my apt btwn my RCN TiVo Q and my Premiere. Since the Premiere doesn't support MoCA I used an Actiontec Coax Network Adapter 3500T  and a splitter. TiVo uses one Gigabit Ethernet port leaving three free for the TV and Roku.


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## CAVinstallations

I realize that this is a month after the last post, but I read through every post so I feel like posting. Lol

Chromecast streaming over WiFi is just a compressed internet signal. It's much easier for this medium. And the Chromecast is buffering the signal so you don't see any small glitches. As for Hulu... Hulu's signal sucks. Quality is horrible. Try the new Vudu streaming on Chromecast. Vudu streams in 1080p, but the only way they get it to work as well as it does is they use Peer to Peer. Much more efficient of a delivery system. Watch Netflix 1080 and you'll get buffering.

As for Moca the throughput is much less, but the convenience is there. It's not the same as an IP signal. But it is very reliable for the short distances you have in your home. And MOST homes should be plug and play.

There are some exceptions and people should be cognizant of them. If your house is relatively new or your electrician (or whoever wired your coax) was good, all your Coax wiring is wired to ONE location. At this location is a splitter. It takes the signal coming in to the house from Comcast or Fios or Cox or TW or whoever and sends it to your TVs. If your house has a weak signal coming in or you have more than 4 connections a signal booster was probably installed.

A booster or amp may harm your Moca signal if it tries to get through. It's most important to have the booster/amp before the splitter and not in-line with any particular signal. (Also, these boosters can effect your internet signal so it's recommended to use a splitter before your booster to send an untouched cable signal to your modem.)
There are approved Moca Amplifiers available if it's needed.

Another thing is the Splitters you are using. Most splitters provided by the cable companies now are fine. But it's important to use splitters that are rated above 1ghz as a Moca Signal is in the 500mhz - 1650mhz. Plus they must be 2way splitters. There are also Moca Splitters with POE Filters built in.

Also a bad fitting could affect a Moca signal but maybe not a TV signal. Look inside the end of the Coax Cable. Are there any pieces of metal touching the copper center conductor? If so either replace the fitting (tools available at most hardware stores) or if you can just use tweezers and pull it out. Also, it sounds stupid, but some fittings just plain won't work well.

Another important thing to know is that you can't have TWO Moca networks on the same lines. So if you have FIOS you all ready have a Moca network and you do not need to setup a Moca network for your Tivos. This means NO Tivo Equipment should need an Ethernet or Wireless connection to the network. Just the Coax. Comcast, Cox, and TW (among others) have all started using Moca networks for their Multi-room DVR services. So check with your service to see if there is all ready a Moca Network in place. --> What's great is you can grab a Moca adapter and throw it on a coax and pull internet off it for a hardwire connection anywhere there is a Coax cable.

Check out this video




Explains it all very well.

I hope this is all helpful to anyone still linked with this Thread and anyone else having problems. Hope it's understandable. If anything I said isn't true feel free to correct me. Though a source for your different information would be nice.


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## DCDawg

Just got the Roamio Plus and Mini. I have FiOS in my apartment and a coax cable that goes to my two TV rooms. I installed the Roamio Plus with an Ethernet directly into it from the router....and installed the mini with Moca. Also got a POE filter and installed it at the entry. Router is a FiOS router that came with the install last month.

The Roamio works fine but the Mini keeps telling me V87 (Network too slow, etc..) and the network is just fine as my speeds are very good.

Tried calling Tivo with no success as they tell me to reboot and restart. Love the Tivo Roamio but I may have to return it.


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## dianebrat

DCDawg said:


> Just got the Roamio Plus and Mini. I have FiOS in my apartment and a coax cable that goes to my two TV rooms. I installed the Roamio Plus with an Ethernet directly into it from the router....and installed the mini with Moca. Also got a POE filter and installed it at the entry. Router is a FiOS router that came with the install last month.
> 
> The Roamio works fine but the Mini keeps telling me V87 (Network too slow, etc..) and the network is just fine as my speeds are very good.
> 
> Tried calling Tivo with no success as they tell me to reboot and restart. Love the Tivo Roamio but I may have to return it.


Why is the Roamio on Ethernet? it'd make far more sense to use MoCA on it since you already have the coax connected, AND that would put the Mini and Roamio on the same physical network.

There's also not a real need for a POE on a FiOS install the entry point isn't coax, it's fiber, I'd pull it for troubleshooting.


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## HarperVision

Yeah I've read that if both networks are activated (Ethernet and moca) then it can really screw things up. That may be your issue. With fios it's already moca so just connect via moca on your Roamio and mini, connect them up to the coax and don't connect the Ethernet cable to the Roamio and you should be golden.


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## obeythelaw2004

Has anyone been able to get a definitive answer from Tivo on the V87 errors on the Minis? I have a Mini and from day one, I tried connecting via Moca since I have Fios I figured that would be the easiest thing but I was getting V87 errors and another error very often. Since I have Ethernet wired to the room, I switched to the Ethernet connection and that works about 75% of the time. The rest of the time I will get V87 errors on playback. Have not noticed it on live programming but only on recorded playback. I've changed the splitters, power cycled my network, restarted the Mini and Roamio Plus and set static IPs and I still get the V87 error. Is there an update coming down the pipeline soon? I feel that this is a widespread issue as every Tivo forum on the INteret has people talking about V87 errors and following all recommendations and even getting new Minis and they still get this error. For me, it happens infrequent enough that I can live with it. However, if I had more than one Mini set up in my house, I would dump it.


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## CrispyCritter

Based on the reports here, I would say it's a rare error, less than 1% of the folks have it, but it's obviously very troublesome to those that have it. I wouldn't count on an update helping. As far as I know, in all cases that have been solved (and not all have been solved), the problem has been either the Mini hardware (only once that I remember from here) or the local network. TiVos exercise local networks in ways that few other consumer devices do, and they will find problems like faulty routers or bad connections.


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## aaronwt

I've never seen the error on any of my Minis. I just setup a third one and switched back to MoCA the other day. I am on FiOS but I us Ethernet from my ONT instead of MoCA.


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## aaronwt

I was just reading in the other thread what moyekj said


moyekj said:


> Historically the V87 error happens to me only when I start watching something that is still recording on the host TiVo. At some point after the show has finished recording the V87 error will show up. I have never had the error while streaming shows that have fully recorded before I start watching them. (Note that this bug has been present ever since MRS first came out, before the Minis were released).


And it did jog my memory. I remember having some issue when I first got my Minis when I would start watching a recording while it was still being recorded. There would be an issue when I got near the end. And I guess it was this error. 
But I thought this had been fixed. I know I have not run into this in a very long time. So long that I completely forgot about it


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## yamsta

I was getting V87 issues and solved it. See my post here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10732897#post10732897


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