# CableCard coming to an end FCC 20-124



## paxon1 (Nov 5, 2003)

Does not look good for the Cable Card from FCC 20-124 Today. 9-4-20

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-20-124A1.pdf

Cherry Picking the info from FCC doc.

9. "We eliminate the CableCARD consumer support rules. We conclude that these rules no
longer serve a useful purpose following the D.C. Circuit's 2013 decision in Echostar."

11. "We also find that retention of the CableCARD support rules is unnecessary to ensure that
cable operators continue to support retail CableCARD devices during their expected lifetime."

12. "Finally, we conclude that it is appropriate to eliminate the requirement that the largest
cable operators report about CableCARD support and deployment on a quarterly basis.51"


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## TishTash (Jan 24, 2008)

Ajit Pai can s*** my d***.


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

So does this mean we have to give back our cable cards and use OTA or stream? If that’s the case TiVo is dead

I’m not a lawyer, can anyone sum this up and few sentences?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

TishTash said:


> Ajit Pai can s*** my d***.


Ajit Pai ca l*** my t****!


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## lhvetinari (Jun 24, 2019)

radtechy said:


> So does this mean we have to give back our cable cards and use OTA or stream? If that's the case TiVo is dead
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, can anyone sum this up and few sentences?


From what I get out of it, the regulatory teeth behind CableCard enforcement are being stripped as they "trust" (hah) the operators to continue cablecard support without the federal mandate.

Addendum: Ajit Pai is also invited to s--- my d--- when he finishes with the other two from the thread above


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## JandS (Oct 1, 2010)

Any thoughts on whether this will be death by benign neglect situation or full on no more cards, go pound sand event?

eta: meaning how will cable operators react?


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## elorimer (Jan 1, 2012)

We know how cable operators will react. First, they will raise the fees for cable cards until they are in excess of their own box rental. Second, they will at best support cards in use now, and not provide cards for new installs. Third, they will not support cable cards.


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## DVR_Dave (Apr 19, 2017)

elorimer said:


> We know how cable operators will react. First, they will raise the fees for cable cards until they are in excess of their own box rental. Second, they will at best support cards in use now, and not provide cards for new installs. Third, they will not support cable cards.


Fourth, lawyers will get richer with class action lawsuits.


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## lhvetinari (Jun 24, 2019)

JandS said:


> Any thoughts on whether this will be death by benign neglect situation or full on no more cards, go pound sand event?
> 
> eta: meaning how will cable operators react?


I don't think they'll go full-on go pound sand (at least not too soon, it'd raise too much ire) - but I fully expect the death by neglect situation (here's lookin' at you, Altice...)

But hey, maybe there's a 1/1,000,000 chance this spurs TiVo to get going on a 2-way/IP compatible box that makes it's way to the retail market (after some MSOs pick it up, of course)


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

JandS said:


> Any thoughts on whether this will be death by benign neglect situation or full on no more cards, go pound sand event?
> 
> eta: meaning how will cable operators react?


What do you call neglect that isn't benign, rather it's harmful? That's what will happen.

You know how a big chunk of cable card issues get resolved by filing an FCC complaint? That's not going to do anything any more. So the likelihood of your Tivo becoming a doorstop at any given moment just went way up.

It's not like we didn't all know this day would come, especially under d*** s***er Pai. It's just managed to stay off his radar until now. I guess he's running out of things to destroy.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

mdavej said:


> What do you call neglect that isn't benign, rather it's harmful? That's what will happen.
> 
> You know how a big chunk of cable card issues get resolved by filing an FCC complaint? That's not going to do anything any more. So the likelihood of your Tivo becoming a doorstop at any given moment just went way up.
> 
> It's not like we didn't all know this day would come, especially under d*** s***er Pai. It's just managed to stay off his radar until now. I guess he's running out of things to destroy.


This is getting political... I won't say anything more.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

MScottC said:


> This is getting political... I won't say anything more.


The thread or the move to kill cable card?

How can a government action be discussed without being political? It's 100% political.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

If CableCARDs go away, Channels DVR provides an alternate way to record cable shows: TV Everywhere (TVE). I doubt TiVo will put in the development time necessary to do the same. Not that loss of cable access would be a great tragedy here. We normally only rely on cable for a few news/talk channels. Everything else is over the air or streaming.


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

lhvetinari said:


> From what I get out of it, the regulatory teeth behind CableCard enforcement are being stripped as they "trust" (hah) the operators to continue cablecard support without the federal mandate.
> 
> Addendum: Ajit Pai is also invited to s--- my d--- when he finishes with the other two from the thread above


So basically you're saying the FCC says we don't want to be bothered and it's up to cable to provide it or not?

I'm sorry I'm asking again I just want a simple answer and every comment is beating around the bush


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## lhvetinari (Jun 24, 2019)

radtechy said:


> So basically you're saying the FCC says we don't want to be bothered and it's up to cable to provide it or not?
> 
> I'm sorry I'm asking again I just want a simple answer and every comment is beating around the bush


Yeah, that's what I assume - it's going from the FCC saying "Under federal policy, you MUST..." to "Well, it would be nice if you guys could..." with no law behind it.


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## JandS (Oct 1, 2010)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> If CableCARDs go away, Channels DVR provides an alternate way to record cable shows: TV Everywhere (TVE).


I really thank you for reminding the dinosaurs among us (or those who must support them and so are loathe to make changes without a looooong considered effort) that there is life outside a Tivo ecosystem.


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

lhvetinari said:


> Yeah, that's what I assume - it's going from the FCC saying "Under federal policy, you MUST..." to "Well, it would be nice if you guys could..." with no law behind it.


Thanks for giving me a straight answer. I guess I'll be ready when this happens. How long do you think it will take for cable to screw us? As it is I have signal issues they can't fix and getting choppy tv so I've already been looking at alternatives. The only think keeping me is I like the convenience other than that I really don't have any reasons to keep TiVo


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## elorimer (Jan 1, 2012)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Everything else is over the air or streaming


In my part of the NYC market OTA is limited to one PBS station. TiVo has been great, but if cable card goes then my four with lifetime go in the dustbin of history.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

elorimer said:


> In my part of the NYC market OTA is limited to one PBS station. TiVo has been great, but if cable card goes then my four with lifetime go in the dustbin of history.


Wow only one channel? OK at that point your choices will be Channels DVR with TVE, or one of the cloud DVR services like YouTube TV, Hulu Live TV, or one of their smaller competitors. Sad to see more people ready to dump TiVo, but there are options. There never again will be anything exactly like TiVo though.


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## pj1983 (Dec 26, 2016)

Looks like it's time to start unloading CC-only TiVos while they still have some value.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

JandS said:


> eta: meaning how will cable operators react?


The way they currently act suggests the answer. All those companies that say "We don't support CableCard anymore" when you call them? Now, they'll mean it.

BTW, does anyone know the 2013 case the FCC is referring to, offhand?


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## samsauce29 (Nov 30, 2007)

wmcbrine said:


> The way they currently act suggests the answer. All those companies that say "We don't support CableCard anymore" when you call them? Now, they'll mean it.
> 
> BTW, does anyone know the 2013 case the FCC is referring to, offhand?


Justia Opinion Summary

DISH, a direct broadcast satellite provider, challenged two orders of the Commission because they imposed "encoding rules," which limited the means of encoding that cable and satellite service providers could employ to prevent unauthorized access to their broadcasts. The court held that the FCC's decision to apply these encoding rules exceeded the agency's statutory authority. Consequently, the court need not reach DISH's alternate contention that the decision was arbitrary and capricious. Accordingly, the court granted the petition for review.

EchoStar Satellite, LLC v. FCC, et al, No. 04-1033 (D.C. Cir. 2013)


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## TishTash (Jan 24, 2008)

radtechy said:


> So basically you're saying the FCC says we don't want to be bothered and it's up to cable to provide it or not?
> 
> I'm sorry I'm asking again I just want a simple answer and every comment is beating around the bush


"Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding ... sold to the American "


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

You will still be able to use a series 2 with a DTA.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

This is all no surprise, Ajit Pai was appointed to head the FCC to gift the cable companies for their support to the administration. It was a prime directive to do away with net neutrality and allow the cable companies to achieve maximum profit at the expense of competition and the consumer.


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

elorimer said:


> In my part of the NYC market OTA is limited to one PBS station. TiVo has been great, but if cable card goes then my four with lifetime go in the dustbin of history.


Take out the hard drives and get enclosures for them and make portable hard drives I did that once with a dead laptop


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## Triride44 (Jan 11, 2020)

elorimer said:


> In my part of the NYC market OTA is limited to one PBS station. TiVo has been great, but if cable card goes then my four with lifetime go in the dustbin of history.


Check out LOCAST you can get all the local OTA's for a $5/mth donation.

Home - Locast


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Just confirmed - Ajit Pai is the worst FCC commissioner ever.

Vote, people. It's important.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Triride44 said:


> Check out LOCAST you can get all the local OTA's for a $5/mth donation.
> 
> Home - Locast


Locast is a good option, if it is available for your area. Hopefully @elorimer is within the NYC Metro market as Locast defines it, as it is not available in NY beyond those boundaries. But for the record, Channels DVR supports Locast.


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

When does this take effect?


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Could the fact that there's 'no or very little quality product' developed for the retail market have anything at all to do with lifting likely the requirement to supply the CableCARD for customer owned equipment? If there were more 'quality product' and a greater demand for product I'd think it might not have come to this.


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

DigitalDawn said:


> When does this take effect?


There may be some kind of statutory delay, but barring some kind of legal challenge, I would say it is a done deal....sadly.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Many MSO supply TiVo boxes, like mine, and I'm sure some STB inside also. They won't be happy.


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## TishTash (Jan 24, 2008)

elorimer said:


> In my part of the NYC market OTA is limited to one PBS station. TiVo has been great, but if cable card goes then my four with lifetime go in the dustbin of history.


That's not entirely true: What about WLIW on Long Island, and WNJN in Jersey? All part of WNET now.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

So this is it. I can get a letter from Comcast any day? They will effectively be breaking my contract so I wont be penalized for dropping tv , keeping internet and going yttv? I think as long as i keep internet I wont get wacked.What about thoise who just bought a lifetime Edge? Yoinks!!!


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

slowbiscuit said:


> Just confirmed - Ajit Pai is the worst FCC commissioner ever.
> 
> Vote, people. It's important.


Why is he the worst ever? Because they are removing a rule and that pulls the plug on a device that essentially dead already?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> Many MSO supply TiVo boxes, like mine, and I'm sure some STB inside also. They won't be happy.


Note that the FCC filing doesn't say that MSOs can't continue to offer and support CableCARDs _voluntarily_. The FCC actually urges/expects MSOs to do so, although I think that's fairly disingenuous. Sure, those MSOs that deploy TiVos and other STBs that use CCs will continue to support them but those who don't (all the big ones) will be free to drop support now.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

As corporations are given free reign to destroy the land air and sea...why not destroy freedom of choice as well?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mattyro7878 said:


> So this is it. I can get a letter from Comcast any day? They will effectively be breaking my contract so I wont be penalized for dropping tv , keeping internet and going yttv? I think as long as i keep internet I wont get wacked.What about thoise who just bought a lifetime Edge? Yoinks!!!


I'd be surprised if Comcast (or Charter or Verizon or Cox) suddenly de-activated CCs that are already in use. Far more likely scenario, IMO, is that they allow the current ones to continue to be used but they stop issuing and activating any more CCs. Just like decrepit old cable boxes out in the field, as long as the customer is satisfied using it and keeps paying the bill, they'll let them remain. But if a technical problem arises, the customer will be told that they must swap out the equipment for something newer, i.e. X1 or the Xfinity Stream app.

As for those who just bought a new TiVo with lifetime service, yep, muy no bueno. Of course, the handwriting has been on the wall for quite some time and some of us have been warning that big new investments in TiVo hardware and service is a risky proposition.

I'm wondering if TiVo will continue to even sell CableCARD DVRs now. If so, do they have some kind of legal obligation to notify consumers prior to purchase that their cable company may now legally choose to kick the device off their network at any point in time going forward?


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

mattyro7878 said:


> As corporations are given free reign to destroy the land air and sea...why not destroy freedom of choice as well?


I don't even understand this......


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

TishTash said:


> Ajit Pai can s*** my d***.


Remember that at election time. Truth!


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> I'd be surprised if Comcast (or Charter or Verizon or Cox) suddenly de-activated CCs that are already in use. Far more likely scenario, IMO, is that they allow the current ones to continue to be used but they stop issuing and activating any more CCs. Just like decrepit old cable boxes out in the field, as long as the customer is satisfied using it and keeps paying the bill, they'll let them remain. But if a technical problem arises, the customer will be told that they must swap out the equipment for something newer, i.e. X1 or the Xfinity Stream app.
> 
> As for those who just bought a new TiVo with lifetime service, yep, muy no bueno. Of course, the handwriting has been on the wall for quite some time and some of us have been warning that big new investments in TiVo hardware and service is a risky proposition.
> 
> I'm wondering if TiVo will continue to even sell CableCARD DVRs now. If so, do they have some kind of legal obligation to notify consumers prior to purchase that their cable company may now legally choose to kick the device off their network at any point in time going forward?


Let's say you have a couple of Premiere's that you intended to update to Roamio's or Bolts. Could you take the cable cards out of your Premiere's, call your cable company and just have them re-assigned to the newer units? Or do we think the cable companies won't allow that in an attempt to wipe them out...


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> I'd be surprised if Comcast (or Charter or Verizon or Cox) suddenly de-activated CCs that are already in use. Far more likely scenario, IMO, is that they allow the current ones to continue to be used but they stop issuing and activating any more CCs. Just like decrepit old cable boxes out in the field, as long as the customer is satisfied using it and keeps paying the bill, they'll let them remain. But if a technical problem arises, the customer will be told that they must swap out the equipment for something newer, i.e. X1 or the Xfinity Stream app.


Cable companies might start raising rental rates on cards every year to force people off them. Then again, they probably don't really care if anyone uses cards as long as they don't need to support them.

If my Tivo stops working, I'd likely just dump cable TV and take one of Comcast's free Flex boxes.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> Just confirmed - Ajit Pai is the worst FCC commissioner ever.
> 
> Vote, people. It's important.


I remember saying that the day he was appointed, especially in the Cox forum. Nobody even replied. It's like you're on the spaceship in 'Wally'


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Why is he the worst ever? Because they are removing a rule and that pulls the plug on a device that essentially dead already?


No, because he was hired by an administration who are taking boatloads of cash from cable company monopolies to benefit absolutely no one but them. Maybe you're not old enough, but the FCC used to act for the consumer....


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

I guess we should start watching for Weaknees sales?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tvmaster2 said:


> Let's say you have a couple of Premiere's that you intended to update to Roamio's or Bolts. Could you take the cable cards out of your Premiere's, call your cable company and just have them re-assigned to the newer units? Or do we think the cable companies won't allow that in an attempt to wipe them out...


Who knows. My *guess* is that if a cableco is looking to completely phase out CableCARDs, then no, they wouldn't allow any currently used units be re-paired to a different TiVo. Because even doing that would require keeping someone on staff who knows how to troubleshoot and service CableCARDs. We'll see what happens. Things will probably play out a bit differently from one cableco to another.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

morac said:


> Cable companies might start raising rental rates on cards every year to force people off them. Then again, they probably don't really care if anyone uses cards as long as they don't need to support them.


Yeah. I mean, if a cableco stops officially supporting the cards, I don't see how they can charge for them. BTW, I notice that Comcast's official rate card recently set the price for CableCARD rentals to "$0.00". Seems like their policy used to be first one free, then a charge, and you got a small discount ($5/mo?) for using customer-owned equipment.



morac said:


> If my Tivo stops working, I'd likely just dump cable TV and take one of Comcast's free Flex boxes.


Eh, I took a Flex box out of curiosity. If you're going to do much streaming, it really is worth your while to spend a few bucks and get a decent box/stick. I found the Flex to be not-so-great. Sub-par UI and an annoying remote. I'd suggest checking out the forthcoming Google Nest TV, rumored to cost $50-60 when it releases at the end of the month.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Eh, I took a Flex box out of curiosity. If you're going to do much streaming, it really is worth your while to spend a few bucks and get a decent box/stick. I found the Flex to be not-so-great. Sub-par UI and an annoying remote. I'd suggest checking out the forthcoming Google Nest TV, rumored to cost $50-60 when it releases at the end of the month.


Maybe I misunderstood the Flex, but I thought it let you get some TV channels basically for free. Lately I've been watching less recorded stuff, but there isn't really any shows on at this point.


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> Who knows. My **guess**


I thought you might be along soon. Took longer than I expected!

This of course isn't dated but I'll be more concerned when they withdraw that statement!

_Why is Comcast offering CableCARDs?_
Comcast is committed to working with manufacturers of retail devices, including manufacturers of CableCARD devices, in order to provide our customers with more choices to access and enjoy Xfinity TV services. Comcast will continue to support retail CableCARD-compatible devices well into the future.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. I mean, if a cableco stops officially supporting the cards, I don't see how they can charge for them. BTW, I notice that Comcast's official rate card recently set the price for CableCARD rentals to "$0.00". Seems like their policy used to be first one free, then a charge, and you got a small discount ($5/mo?) for using customer-owned equipment.


You're right that Comcast used to charge for each multi-stream CableCARD (CC) after the first one, but it seems to me that that policy changed quite a while back once they had started to assess the "Additional Digital Outlet" fee for service to the associated CC, which usually amounted to $9.95.

I believe Comcast still has quite a large number of legacy STB's in service that rely on CC technology and it will thus probably be at least a year or more, conservatively speaking, before they are able to pull the plug on our third-party CC-enabled devices. But I would not be at all surprised if they discontinue the Consumer-Owned Equipment (COE) adjustment based on this FCC ruling after just having increased it from $2.50 to $5.00 as of January 1st this year.

In retrospect, I wonder whether the Comcast programmers had a heads-up on this ruling when they reportedly removed the COE code from the billing system here in the Big South Region recently (see my post here).


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> Many MSO supply TiVo boxes, like mine, and I'm sure some STB inside also. They won't be happy.


What? No, this doesn't affect them at all. They can continue to supply CableCards, or, if they prefer, collaborate with TiVo on some alternate access control system. The point of the CableCard mandate was to enable consumer choice in STBs at the retail level. That's the only thing that's being lost.


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## KevTech (Apr 15, 2014)

chiguy50 said:


> But I would not be at all surprised if they discontinue the Consumer-Owned Equipment (COE) adjustment


Comcast has found a way around this with new packages.

On the cablecard page it states you only get the discount if your package includes equipment.

Almost all the new packages do not include DVR/equipment so no more discount.

Bottom line is if you are getting the discount now do not change your package or you will lose the discount.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chiguy50 said:


> I believe Comcast still has quite a large number of legacy STB's in service that rely on CC technology and it will thus probably be at least a year or more, conservatively speaking, before they are able to pull the plug on our third-party CC-enabled devices.


Yeah, that may keep Comcast from simply switching off all CCs at the network level. Although I don't see why they'd want to do that anyway, so long as they continue to offer cable channels via QAM. As I say, if a cableco wanted to phase out support for CCs, the most plausible scenario to me seems like they'd just stop issuing and activating CCs while letting existing ones in use continue on until they stopped working or required some kind of service intervention, at which point the customer would be forced to switch to a non-CC solution.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

morac said:


> Maybe I misunderstood the Flex, but I thought it let you get some TV channels basically for free. Lately I've been watching less recorded stuff, but there isn't really any shows on at this point.


Flex is just a box running the X1 operating system with a UI customized for streaming. It supports several different apps but I think the only free ones are Pluto TV, Tubi, YouTube and Peacock (which are, of course, also available on other streaming devices). Also has apps for Netflix, Hulu, Prime Video and CBS AA. You can also access HBO, Showtime and Starz through the native Flex UI but only if you subscribe to them through Comcast.


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

I wonder if cable companies will keep supporting CCs to retain customers. If they drop CC support, how many of those customers would stay with the cable company rather than switch to OTA, streaming, or an OTT solution? Back in the old days of a monopoly, the cable company could get away with anything they wanted. But now with them losing lots of customers and customers having so many other options, it might make sense for them to keep their CC support like it is.


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## KevTech (Apr 15, 2014)

NashGuy said:


> Flex is just a box running the X1 operating system with a UI customized for streaming. It supports several different apps but I think the only free ones are Pluto TV, Tubi, YouTube and Peacock (which are, of course, also available on other streaming devices). Also has apps for Netflix, Hulu, Prime Video and CBS AA. You can also access HBO, Showtime and Starz through the native Flex UI but only if you subscribe to them through Comcast.


Bad thing about Flex compared to using a CC.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

warrenn said:


> I wonder if cable companies will keep supporting CCs to retain customers. If they drop CC support, how many of those customers would stay with the cable company rather than switch to OTA, streaming, or an OTT solution? Back in the old days of a monopoly, the cable company could get away with anything they wanted. But now with them losing lots of customers and customers having so many other options, it might make sense for them to keep their CC support like it is.


We'd dump them for EVERYTHING but internet until the lost investment of our dead TiVo's was recouped. Satellite, OTA and streaming are fine. SageTV still works as a DVR. I actually record from a cable set top box with Sage.


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## jerrymc (Sep 17, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> Just confirmed - Ajit Pai is the worst FCC commissioner ever.
> 
> Vote, people. It's important.


Yeah, THIS is the burning issue the American people need to be outraged about...


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## elorimer (Jan 1, 2012)

jerrymc said:


> Yeah, THIS is the burning issue the American people need to be outraged about...


Fair point. But the cable card matter is part of a general movement to greater wealth disparity as rentier profits get locked in by increasingly deregulated monopolies. I'm guessing for many households the cable bill is now twice the electric bill.

It's of a piece with drug pricing; hell, even Quicken is now in a subscription mode where you pay twice as much a year as you used to buy the software for.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

KevTech said:


> Comcast has found a way around this with new packages.
> 
> On the cablecard page it states you only get the discount if your package includes equipment.
> 
> ...


The COE discount was always stipulated on a service package that includes a Comcast-supplied digital navigation device; that condition was worded to comply with the specific FCC CableCARD mandate (cf. 47CFR76.1205(b)(5)(ii)(B)(2)).

It is true, as you say, that the newer arrangements exclude any customer-provided equipment (CPE), but there remain in force any number of legacy deals that include CPE (ours runs through May 2021). However, AIUI this new FCC ruling will allow Comcast to eliminate the COE policy altogether regardless of the terms of the customer's service.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, that may keep Comcast from simply switching off all CCs at the network level. Although I don't see why they'd want to do that anyway, so long as they continue to offer cable channels via QAM. As I say, if a cableco wanted to phase out support for CCs, the most plausible scenario to me seems like they'd just stop issuing and activating CCs while letting existing ones in use continue on until they stopped working or required some kind of service intervention, at which point the customer would be forced to switch to a non-CC solution.


I agree that this is the most likely scenario regarding continued CableCARD support.


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## VicVinegar (Sep 18, 2015)

Can't say I'm surprised that this FCC gave the cable companies the green light to kill cable card. 

I guess it doesn't bother me too much. I am considering retiring my cable TV anyway at the end of my contract with Fios. 90% of the channels are junk. Every time I turn it on to "flip around", I usually find nothing to watch, turn it off and open up a streaming service or play a video game. I'm pretty sure the 4-5 shows we really care to DVR on the Tivo are immediately posted to a streaming service now. Not too long ago, there would be a lag behind air date and streaming.

Since I have a "base" Roamio, I'll hook it up to an antenna and see if I can get some more use out of it and my Minis. This is why I'd never buy something like the Edge which forces you to choose cable or OTA. I've more than got my money's worth out of this equipment by not paying ridiculous Fios STB rental fees.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Why is he the worst ever? Because they are removing a rule and that pulls the plug on a device that essentially dead already?


Seriously? Do some research on what Pai has forced through, such as getting rid of net neutrality.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

jerrymc said:


> Yeah, THIS is the burning issue the American people need to be outraged about...


Way more than just this latest anti-consumer decision, man. Pai is just one example of a lot of stuff to vote about.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

elorimer said:


> Fair point. But the cable card matter is part of a general movement to greater wealth disparity as rentier profits get locked in by increasingly deregulated monopolies. I'm guessing for many households the cable bill is now twice the electric bill.
> 
> It's of a piece with drug pricing; hell, even Quicken is now in a subscription mode where you pay twice as much a year as you used to buy the software for.


Exactly. The last administration was pro net-neutrality, this one isn't. My mind is made up. The most important and powerful education tool CANNOT be controlled by monopolistic corporations.
Since net neutrality was killed, my Cox bill has increased 30%, and my cable-card prices have increased 50%. In just two years. How many people's salaries have gone up 50%? And this is on equipment which ALREADY EXISTS, and costs the cable company NOTHING! My .02 cents.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

warrenn said:


> I wonder if cable companies will keep supporting CCs to retain customers. If they drop CC support, how many of those customers would stay with the cable company rather than switch to OTA, streaming, or an OTT solution? Back in the old days of a monopoly, the cable company could get away with anything they wanted. But now with them losing lots of customers and customers having so many other options, it might make sense for them to keep their CC support like it is.





VicVinegar said:


> Can't say I'm surprised that this FCC gave the cable companies the green light to kill cable card.


Yeah, I'm not surprised that the CableCARD mandate was killed at this point either. And the main reason is simply that very few consumers actually use CCs. Part of the mandate required that MSOs report to the FCC the number of CCs their customers were actively using. This new filing from the FCC says (footnote 40) that by Q1 of this year, the number of active CCs at the four largest MSOs was down to only about 456,000. I added up the total number of cable TV subs among those four providers (Comcast, Charter, Verizon, and Cox) as of mid-2020 and it came to 44,367,000. So that means that just a hair over 1% of their customers are using CCs.

CC was just never really embraced by consumers and at this point, it's obviously dying out. The issues it was supposed to address -- allowing the consumer to use their own equipment as opposed to rented set-top boxes, as well as giving the consumer greater choice -- are now being addressed through other options that are proving far more popular with consumers. If you have cable TV from Comcast or Charter, you can use their app on your streaming device instead of using their STBs. Or if you want a different choice in terms of UI and feature set, you can get cable TV through streaming apps from AT&T TV, YouTube TV, Hulu Live, or Fubo. And keep in mind that the CC mandate was somewhat unfair in that it only ever applied to MSOs that used QAM TV transmission; meanwhile, satellite TV and managed IPTV (e.g. AT&T Uverse) providers never had to comply with a similar rule.

CC was already dying due to changes in technology and consumer preference. I think this new action from the FCC just reflects that.


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## JandS (Oct 1, 2010)

Because "Comcast" is actually a conglomeration of formerly independent providers with wildly varying equipment, capabilities, services, and rates, is it also true that cable card policies for each separate area, moving forward, might vary depending on their specific existing local hardware? Or is "Comcast" now bringing more localities into some big corp homogenization?


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## brobin (Feb 14, 2014)

The only reason I stay with Comcast is because I like using my Tivo. If the Tivo is killed they'd lose me as customer since CenturyLink just installed fiber in our neighborhood and I can buy internet from them for the same or less $$.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

JandS said:


> Because "Comcast" is actually a conglomeration of formerly independent providers with wildly varying equipment, capabilities, services, and rates, is it also true that cable card policies for each separate area, moving forward, might vary depending on their specific existing local hardware? Or is "Comcast" now bringing more localities into some big corp homogenization?


I think you are overstating the case. Through mergers and acquisitions the monolithic Comcast has acquired a patchwork of smaller MSO's, and some of the aggregate systems and service terms vary somewhat from the norm as a result, but the basic equipment inventory and overall retail procedures are pretty much uniform.

IMHO there is no question that Comcast's corporate policy-makers have lately been striving for standardization across their entire footprint (that was one of the main driving forces behind Simple & Easy, although it has been a slow, lurching rollout in typical Comcast fashion). Therefore, in principal, you should expect CableCARD support uniformity (as is presently the case to the best of my knowledge). Some regions may be slower than others to adapt to a new order of business, but if the decision is made to terminate CableCARD support in one form or another (e.g., through benign neglect, as it were), I would expect all three divisions to march to the same tune.

I would love to be able to continue using my TiVo Roamio Pro and Mini until they die of old age, but at the same time I am also looking forward to the next great technological advancement in TV viewing. For one thing, I would like to watch all of my programming in SOTA video and audio; that's not likely to happen under QAM transmission. Cable TV must compete with 4K/HDR streaming and UHD Blu-rays if it is going to keep viewers like me interested.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

blacknoi said:


> I don't even understand this......


I'll break it down for you since you're having a tough time time understanding. I choose to use a Tivo to watch and record cabletv. The FCC just took that choice away from me. As of today, Comcast chooses whether I can use my Tivo. Got it??


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

KevTech said:


> Comcast has found a way around this with new packages.
> 
> On the cablecard page it states you only get the discount if your package includes equipment.
> 
> ...


I was just thinking of upgrading my package to a higher speed. But looking at the price list, I can't tell if DVR is included or not. What should I be on the lookout for? For example, some say "Includes 20 hours DVR service for primary outlet" or "Includes HD DVR service for primary outlet".


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

javabird said:


> I was just thinking of upgrading my package to a higher speed. But looking at the price list, I can't tell if DVR is included or not. What should I be on the lookout for? For example, some say "Includes 20 hours DVR service for primary outlet" or "Includes HD DVR service for primary outlet".


"DVR service" means a "cloud DVR" on their servers, not equipment on your end. It doesn't work exactly the same, so maybe you'll love it or maybe you'll hate it, but it's worth reading up on this before making a decision.


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## KevTech (Apr 15, 2014)

javabird said:


> I was just thinking of upgrading my package to a higher speed. But looking at the price list, I can't tell if DVR is included or not. What should I be on the lookout for? For example, some say "Includes 20 hours DVR service for primary outlet" or "Includes HD DVR service for primary outlet".


Most packages now say that the box is separate which means no equipment is included so no discount.

Example:


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

slowbiscuit said:


> Seriously? Do some research on what Pai has forced through, such as getting rid of net neutrality.


You're seriously-ing me? As in there aren't other people who think net neutrality is a terrible idea and glad it's gone.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> You're seriously-ing me? As in there aren't other people who think net neutrality is a terrible idea and glad it's gone.


Outside of ISP's. those people don't exist.


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## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

WVZR1 said:


> I thought you might be along soon. Took longer than I expected!
> 
> This of course isn't dated but I'll be more concerned when they withdraw that statement!
> 
> ...


In my region, when you try to switch packages, they have already been saying "this package doesn't support cablecard". You could challenge that by saying "you have to support this" and now you can't.

I doubt they will kill the existing cards, but you probably won't be able to pair them to new devices or get a new one should it fail. There are only around 400k between all and of the major providers, so likely insignificant overall and becoming more so every day.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Why is he the worst ever? Because they are removing a rule and that pulls the plug on a device that essentially dead already?


Cable companies have always wanted to tie you to renting their box, so eliminating cable cards has been a long term goal of theirs. The FCC has in the past leaned a little more to the consumer, but this guy is in the cable companies pocket and could care less about your cable/internet bill and quality of service. Cable companies have historically had a poor reputation with consumers and finally have an ally in the government.

Also, giving the cable companies the power to throttle and control digital content with the elimination of net neutrality. He's basically paving the way to allow cable companies to charge the streaming services to use their data and even charge you or throttle your services for watching too much netflix.

If you know of a worse FCC chairman, feel free to share.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

jerrymc said:


> Yeah, THIS is the burning issue the American people need to be outraged about...


THIS is the burning issue Tivo users need to be outraged about. Cable and Satellite companies have been out for Tivo for a long time and along comes this guy to hand them a box of nails. This is just a small drop in a swamp filled bucket as far as voting goes.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Narkul said:


> If you know of a worse FCC chairman, feel free to share.


The FCC has never exactly been a bastion of ethics, integrity, and antitrust. One of the worst examples was in 1945, when RCA and AT&T had the FCC in their pocket, and used it to put the inventor of FM Radio out of business. See _The Tragic Birth of FM Radio_


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Seems like the Cable company should be able to control the lineup for each customer at their end without having to encrypt anything.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lhvetinari said:


> I don't think they'll go full-on go pound sand (at least not too soon, it'd raise too much ire) - but I fully expect the death by neglect situation (here's lookin' at you, Altice...)
> 
> But hey, maybe there's a 1/1,000,000 chance this spurs TiVo to get going on a 2-way/IP compatible box that makes it's way to the retail market (after some MSOs pick it up, of course)


#1 the FCC changes with the administration so if the election causes an administration changes in January the new administration could change the rules and make it so they can't. If they hurry then they can claim it's "too late" and they've already thrown them all away.

#2 It's not possible for TiVo to make a retail IPTV box. No such standard exists. They tried a few years ago to make one and even the Dem controlled FCC said apps are good enough. There is never going to be a successor to CableCARD.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mdavej said:


> Outside of ISP's. those people don't exist.


They do because they've been brainwashed by the "media" the consume to think it's a good idea.


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## TishTash (Jan 24, 2008)

A preview: Under the old Cablevision, calling to activate a new TiVo was a snap. You called, the CR would ask for the Host ID and CableCard ID, and they would bind them in a relative flash. When you picked up a Tuning Adapter (before they got rid of them due to bugginess), they gave you one after a couple of keyclicks.

NOW: Under Altice/Optimum, activating a new TiVo with a CC took a couple days, as call after call resulted in CRs who had no idea what to do. Upon escalation (which every CR resisted, so there must be a mark of Cain associated with it), they’d find someone somewhere who could do it, and it was done, but not without a heckuva lot of blood, sweat, and tears.

Plus, picking up a newly-required TA took about half-an-hour of “registering” it.

Both instances were explained by saying that not many people use CCs and TAs anymore, much less TiVos, and there just ain’t many (if any) remaining staff that are familiar with what to do.

So there’s your future....


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Narkul said:


> Cable companies have always wanted to tie you to renting their box, so eliminating cable cards has been a long term goal of theirs. The FCC has in the past leaned a little more to the consumer, but this guy is in the cable companies pocket and could care less about your cable/internet bill and quality of service. Cable companies have historically had a poor reputation with consumers and finally have an ally in the government.
> 
> Also, giving the cable companies the power to throttle and control digital content with the elimination of net neutrality. He's basically paving the way to allow cable companies to charge the streaming services to use their data and even charge you or throttle your services for watching too much netflix.
> 
> If you know of a worse FCC chairman, feel free to share.


Cable card has been around for how long? And it's been so successful that tens of millions of consumers would rather use it than rent their boxes from the cable company right? Give me a break.

Good, I hope Netflix and Amazon pay Comcast or anyone else more money so their customers get rock solid streaming experiences.

And God forbid someone have to pay for using more bandwidth than others.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

mdavej said:


> Outside of ISP's. those people don't exist.


Sure they do, I'm one of them.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Cable card has been around for how long? And it's been so successful that tens of millions of consumers would rather use it than rent their boxes from the cable company right? Give me a break.
> 
> Good, I hope Netflix and Amazon pay Comcast or anyone else more money so their customers get rock solid streaming experiences.
> 
> And God forbid someone have to pay for using more bandwidth than others.


It's not been a great success because cable companies have fought it tooth and nail. All you have to do is look at the horror stories in these forums alone about CC installs. My tuning adapters still needs a monthly reboot just stay working because the cable company is not interested in updating their buggy software.

Higher prices won't equate to better service, they're out to make more money, not give you a better experience.

You're digging too hard to justify this guy which pretty much tells your story. There are better places for you to go "own the libs" than here.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

For those folks who are not able to obtain a cablecard from the cable company in the future and want to record cable TV to a local hard disk or other storage device, you may want to consider MythTV if you are technically inclined. MythTV can record encrypted channels from a cablecard tuner if the channels are not copy restricted, and MythTV can record from some cable boxes without the use of a cablecard. MythTV is not as easy to use as a TiVo, but it is very mature software and has recently become easier to use.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Narkul said:


> It's not been a great success because cable companies have fought it tooth and nail. All you have to do is look at the horror stories in these forums alone about CC installs. My tuning adapters still needs a monthly reboot just stay working because the cable company is not interested in updating their buggy software.
> 
> Higher prices won't equate to better service, they're out to make more money, not give you a better experience.
> 
> You're digging too hard to justify this guy which pretty much tells your story. There are better places for you to go "own the libs" than here.


I don't disagree that cable card is a pain and the cable companies don't make it easy. But there have been multiple DVRs on the market over the years and they have all ended up where TiVo is heading. There is not a huge demand for them aside from the folks here and a few hundred thousand others who are willing to not only invest the time but the money which involves significant upfront costs.

I am not trying to own anything, simply stating there are people who think different than you on this topic and net neutrality.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I don't disagree that cable card is a pain and the cable companies don't make it easy. But there have been multiple DVRs on the market over the years and they have all ended up where TiVo is heading. There is not a huge demand for them aside from the folks here and a few hundred thousand others who are willing to not only invest the time but the money which involves significant upfront costs.
> 
> I am not trying to own anything, simply stating there are people who think different than you on this topic and net neutrality.


So what are the pros of discontinuing the cable card?

What were the pros of discontinuing net neutrality?


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Narkul said:


> So what are the pros of discontinuing the cable card?
> 
> What were the pros of discontinuing net neutrality?


D/Cing CC support simply allows the cable companies to not have to support a product that's on its way out the door largely by consumer choice. I love my TiVo and don't want to get rid of it but it's obvious to everyone who posts here that TiVo's interest in maintaining legacy DVR service is dwindling. Will this hasten Private DVR demise? Maybe. But it's already dying and is likely to be gone for good in the next 5 years.

As for repealing net neutrality, I don't want all internet traffic to be treated as the same. I want to be able to pay more for certain things at certain times if that's what I require. It's just like packages. There are no laws that all Mail must be delivered at the same speed all across the country. You can ship something almost to the minute if you want and are willing to pay the price. Should be the same for Internet data too.

And in the years to come will be even more important with the advent of 5G and things like medical devices and automated driving. I want Tesla or whoever to pay a premium for bandwidth speed they need to navigate these vehicles around. I want Medtronic to pay a premium for real time monitoring of cardiac devices or any other med device manufacturers in the years to come.

These are just a couple of things I can think of quickly as to why it's good to both charge and deliver premium internet service where that traffic gets prioritized over others.


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## TishTash (Jan 24, 2008)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> D/Cing CC support simply allows the cable companies to not have to support a product that's on its way out the door largely by consumer choice. I love my TiVo and don't want to get rid of it but it's obvious to everyone who posts here that TiVo's interest in maintaining legacy DVR service is dwindling....
> 
> As for repealing net neutrality, I don't want all internet traffic to be treated as the same.... You can ship something almost to the minute if you want and are willing to pay the price....
> 
> ... Tesla or whoever [should be able] to pay a premium for bandwidth speed they need to navigate [automated] vehicles around. Medtronic [should be able to] to pay a premium for real time monitoring of cardiac devices or any other med device....


Well, FWIW, as much as I hate to admit it, this liberal says you make solid points, although nonetheless unfortunate ones for those of us on this forum. I appreciate your elaborating on your points; my only suggestion is one of your first posts should've had this much detail.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

TishTash said:


> Well, FWIW, as much as I hate to admit it, this liberal says you make solid points, although nonetheless unfortunate ones for those of us on this forum. I appreciate your elaborating on your points; my only suggestion is one of your first posts should've had this much detail.


Thanks and I am with you. I don't want to give up my TiVo but it's heading in that direction at some point (it seems). And I don't really care what political party anyone belongs too, I only started this convo as I saw people post about how terrible Ajit Pai is without elaborating.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> D/Cing CC support simply allows the cable companies to not have to support a product that's on its way out the door largely by consumer choice. I love my TiVo and don't want to get rid of it but it's obvious to everyone who posts here that TiVo's interest in maintaining legacy DVR service is dwindling. Will this hasten Private DVR demise? Maybe. But it's already dying and is likely to be gone for good in the next 5 years.
> 
> As for repealing net neutrality, I don't want all internet traffic to be treated as the same. I want to be able to pay more for certain things at certain times if that's what I require. It's just like packages. There are no laws that all Mail must be delivered at the same speed all across the country. You can ship something almost to the minute if you want and are willing to pay the price. Should be the same for Internet data too.
> 
> ...


The poor adoption of cable card had little to do with consumer choice and more to do with cable company choice. They stopped at nothing to kill the technology and did everything to ensure that the consumer just found it easier to rent their crappy dvr than go through the horrible customer service nightmare of getting one to work. It was simply pure sabotage and it worked. No other companies were going to diversify and manufacture private cable card devices because of this and the few that did just made some horrible devices (Sony). The companies that could have made private devices, like Scientific Atlanta, Motorola, etc, were in the cable company pockets and weren't going to risk their relationships.

There is no cable company I'm aware of offering you more speed for certain things if your willing to pay, I'd say it's more likely they'll use the absence of net neutrality to take things away from you only to sell it back to you to make more money. Axing net neutrality was simply a gift for the cable companies to make more money, period. It might be ok to increase bandwidth for anything that could affect life saving services, but I'm not sure it's really needed. If the internet goes down for these services, it's unlikely a bandwidth issue and more of a Putin issue anyway.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

Lol, I'm trying not to get too political here, yet as I type, this text box is surrounded by political ads.


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Would/might there be any 'Franchising Agreements' between States, Municipalities and Providers that might stipulate CableCARD support requirements?


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Narkul said:


> The poor adoption of cable card had little to do with consumer choice and more to do with cable company choice. They stopped at nothing to kill the technology and did everything to ensure that the consumer just found it easier to rent their crappy dvr than go through the horrible customer service nightmare of getting one to work. It was simply pure sabotage and it worked. No other companies were going to diversify and manufacture private cable card devices because of this and the few that did just made some horrible devices (Sony). The companies that could have made private devices, like Scientific Atlanta, Motorola, etc, were in the cable company pockets and weren't going to risk their relationships.
> 
> There is no cable company I'm aware of offering you more speed for certain things if your willing to pay, I'd say it's more likely they'll use the absence of net neutrality to take things away from you only to sell it back to you to make more money. Axing net neutrality was simply a gift for the cable companies to make more money, period. It might be ok to increase bandwidth for anything that could affect life saving services, but I'm not sure it's really needed. If the internet goes down for these services, it's unlikely a bandwidth issue and more of a Putin issue anyway.


Comcast and Netflix had a deal before NN was put into effect I believe. Not sure where it stands now since NN is gone.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Comcast and Netflix had a deal before NN was put into effect I believe. Not sure where it stands now since NN is gone.


I know of the deal where you could have Netflix added to your Comcast cable box and it would be billed on your cable bill at current Netflix prices, I don't think that's related to net neutrality though and I'm not sure if Comcast gets a commission on the monthly fee. It might have been a deal just to get both companies more subs.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Narkul said:


> I know of the deal where you could have Netflix added to your Comcast cable box and it would be billed on your cable bill at current Netflix prices, I don't think that's related to net neutrality though and I'm not sure if Comcast gets a commission on the monthly fee. It might have been a deal just to get both companies more subs.


There was an issue where Comcast was refusing to peer properly with Netflix's providers unless Netflix paid them.

Actually I had that problem one summer many years ago where I couldn't stream from any service in the evenings because Comcast refused to add additional bandwidth with Limelight Networks which had become over-saturated. Eventually that got resolved.

As bandwidth has gotten cheaper, this has become less of an issue, but it hasn't been totally eliminated.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TishTash said:


> A preview: Under the old Cablevision, calling to activate a new TiVo was a snap. You called, the CR would ask for the Host ID and CableCard ID, and they would bind them in a relative flash. When you picked up a Tuning Adapter (before they got rid of them due to bugginess), they gave you one after a couple of keyclicks.
> 
> NOW: Under Altice/Optimum, activating a new TiVo with a CC took a couple days, as call after call resulted in CRs who had no idea what to do. Upon escalation (which every CR resisted, so there must be a mark of Cain associated with it), they'd find someone somewhere who could do it, and it was done, but not without a heckuva lot of blood, sweat, and tears.
> 
> ...


But if I'm running Altice, do I want to continue even trying to serve these resource-intensive technical requests? (Activating a CC or TA shouldn't be so resource-intensive but if it requires escalation through that many different CRs, then it is.) I can easily imagine Altice (and, from reports I've read, Frontier) changing their official policy now to "We no longer support CableCARDs." They probably let you keep using your existing one as long as it works for you, but you're on your own if a problem arises.


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## LynnL999 (Oct 7, 2002)

I'm not a super techie like some of you, but I've had TiVos since the TiVo 2, back when it had a phone line and an IR blaster. I love the TiVo ease of use, but this is the writing on the wall. The two Bolts I have now are my last TiVos.

One of my local stations is not on any streaming service for some ungodly reason, and losing that is a dealkiller, so I'll probably stick with cable for awhile longer. 

But I've gotten my cable package down to $43.99 (I am grateful to Cox for offering a no-sports-whatsoever package), and the $13 a month for their 2-tuner DVR on one TV is probably more than sufficient for me now. Everything else I stream anyway.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm "lucky" in that cable and internet are included in my association fees, so it doesn't cost me any more to use them. (And they're good services...the cable is everything except premium, and the internet is 200 Mbps.) But with the fall season the way it is, I'm down to probably less than half my TV watching over cable these days (especially since I went from Comcast HBO to HBO Max).

I do love TiVo, though. If they came up with a relatively future-proof box that would use both cable and streaming with 4K, I would pay a lot for it just to keep the interface and consolidate everything under one set of menus.


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## TishTash (Jan 24, 2008)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Comcast and Netflix had a deal before NN was put into effect I believe. Not sure where it stands now since NN is gone.


Yes but Netflix soon thereafter bemoaned the extortion Comcast and others were forcing onto them, whose salvo, though given _after_ said agreement was inked, still resonated re the pitfalls of pulling net neutrality.


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## TishTash (Jan 24, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> But if I'm running Altice, do I want to continue even trying to serve these resource-intensive technical requests?


Oh I agree completely. Like I said, this is our future....


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## jerrymc (Sep 17, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> Way more than just this latest anti-consumer decision, man. Pai is just one example of a lot of stuff to vote about.


Yeah, like Portland.


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## TishTash (Jan 24, 2008)

jerrymc said:


> Yeah, like Portland.


Y'know, you don't have to limit your causes. If someone donates to an animal shelter doesn't mean they condone human trafficking. People can be against a lot of things and pursuing one doesn't mean they're necessarily accepting the others.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

Sounds like maybe Comcast is already denying cable cards for new accounts.

Is it really possible that Xfinity/Comcast is not supporting TIVO with cable cards in new installs?


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Narkul said:


> Sounds like maybe Comcast is already denying cable cards for new accounts.
> 
> Is it really possible that Xfinity/Comcast is not supporting TIVO with cable cards in new installs?


Unrelated. The FCC memo came out 3 days ago and the other post's problems started sometime before that.


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## DPJohnson (Jan 12, 2011)

I just saw that article and would like to know if this also applies to tuning adapters in addition to cable cards. For a few months now I dropped cable, gave back my Card and tuning adapter to Cox in Omaha-CB, switched to an OTA TiVo with an antenna and subscribed to YouTube TV to get TBS and other cable nets. When I recorder with my Cable TiVo with the card and tuning adapter, there were times when a recorded show would be a black screen with no sound so I dropped cable. Of course, with the indoor antenna I get dropouts on my local stations whenever it storms or a plane flies over my home, so that's another reason I got You Tube TV. But if I could use my cable TiVo with no need for a card or tuning adapter, maybe I'd reconsider cable again.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

DPJohnson said:


> I just saw that article and would like to know if this also applies to tuning adapters in addition to cable cards. For a few months now I dropped cable, gave back my Card and tuning adapter to Cox in Omaha-CB, switched to an OTA TiVo with an antenna and subscribed to YouTube TV to get TBS and other cable nets. When I recorder with my Cable TiVo with the card and tuning adapter, there were times when a recorded show would be a black screen with no sound so I dropped cable. Of course, with the indoor antenna I get dropouts on my local stations whenever it storms or a plane flies over my home, so that's another reason I got You Tube TV. But if I could use my cable TiVo with no need for a card or tuning adapter, maybe I'd reconsider cable again.


You cannot use a cable TiVo without a cable card. And it sounds like your cable provider requires a tuning adapter so you need that also unless you don't want to watch or record those SDV channels.


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## elorimer (Jan 1, 2012)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm "lucky" in that cable and internet are included in my association fees, so it doesn't cost me any more to use them.


Off topic, but those air quotes are deserved. That's the holy grail for cable companies--you're locked in to what the HOA does, mostly forever. That usually includes the cost of their boxes, remotes, etc.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

My triple-play (cable, internet, phone) including one CableCard (& tuning adapter) is now almost $200/month.

I would love for my local cable company to email me telling me they're shutting off CCs since it would be the perfect justification to drop cable TV & cable phone (for Ooma)


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## wendlan (Apr 21, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> But if I'm running Altice, do I want to continue even trying to serve these resource-intensive technical requests? (Activating a CC or TA shouldn't be so resource-intensive but if it requires escalation through that many different CRs, then it is.) I can easily imagine Altice (and, from reports I've read, Frontier) changing their official policy now to "We no longer support CableCARDs." They probably let you keep using your existing one as long as it works for you, but you're on your own if a problem arises.


To add my experience, Altice/Suddenlink was flat-out unwilling/unable to activate CableCARDs in February of this year. I posted about it here: Warning for Suddenlink customer considering Tivo/CableCards in 2020
I decided that if they couldn't even support getting it setup, I would have no confidence in them being able to keep it functional.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

wendlan said:


> To add my experience, Altice/Suddenlink was flat-out unwilling/unable to activate CableCARDs in February of this year. I posted about it here: Warning for Suddenlink customer considering Tivo/CableCards in 2020
> I decided that if they couldn't even support getting it setup, I would have no confidence in them being able to keep it functional.


Yeah. Yours was probably one of the reports I had read. But back in Feb., you at least had the option of contacting the FCC to then contact Altice and force them to give you a working CC. Like this case from a year ago:

Cablevision phase-out of cablecard

Now, that's no longer an option.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

cwoody222 said:


> Unrelated. The FCC memo came out 3 days ago and the other post's problems started sometime before that.


Unless you read something I missed, the poster doesn't really say when he encountered the issue with Comcast other than recently, but the post was made 2 days after the FCC memo on a Sunday. I wouldn't be surprised if Comcast knew this was coming and could have easily sent out a memo to employees to go ahead and start to deny the service.

Regardless, my Tivo buying days are over.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Narkul said:


> Unless you read something I missed, the poster doesn't really say when he encountered the issue with Comcast other than recently, but the post was made 2 days after the FCC memo on a Sunday. I wouldn't be surprised if Comcast knew this was coming and could have easily sent out a memo to employees to go ahead and start to deny the service.
> 
> Regardless, my Tivo buying days are over.


You have far more faith in Comcast's efficiency and organization than I do. 

But yes I think for most of us, our TiVo buying days are over. Ironic that right now there's a thread celebrating folks who have been here on TCF for 20 years.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Narkul said:


> Unless you read something I missed, the poster doesn't really say when he encountered the issue with Comcast other than recently, but the post was made 2 days after the FCC memo on a Sunday. I wouldn't be surprised if Comcast knew this was coming and could have easily sent out a memo to employees to go ahead and start to deny the service.
> 
> Regardless, my Tivo buying days are over.


Well unless the OP discovered his problem, contacted TiVo, got a refund, wrote to the FCC and others and posted here all within 48 hours, I assume his issue has been going on since before the ruling came out.

And I highly doubt issuing a policy change that affects 1% of their users would be a priority for a behemoth of a company like Comcast to be able to push it thru with such EXACT timing.

Much more likely this one person's recent experience is a coincidence.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

cwoody222 said:


> Well unless the OP discovered his problem, contacted TiVo, got a refund, wrote to the FCC and others and posted here all within 48 hours, I assume his issue has been going on since before the ruling came out.
> 
> And I highly doubt issuing a policy change that affects 1% of their users would be a priority for a behemoth of a company like Comcast to be able to push it thru with such EXACT timing.
> 
> Much more likely this one person's recent experience is a coincidence.


I'm not really sure what you're talking about. They wanted to close their existing account and open a new account with a student promotion because their son was a stay at home student, which Xfinity recommended they do, but when they said they had Tivo's, Xfinity said they couldn't activate the Tivos on a new account so they may be better off staying with their existing account and continue using their already active Tivos. There was nothing about refunding Tivos or writing to the FCC. This could easily have occurred over 1 day.

I think it's very likely Comcast knew this was coming, they've been lobbying for it for years and it's no secret that Ajit is clearly on the side of the big cable companies.

I understand this could all be coincidence, but the timing is very suspect, especially when one of the service reps who was familiar with Tivo and stated that existing accounts with cable cards were safe but there would be no new ones.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Apologies, I had re-read an older link above.

But still, the OP you reference seems to have been dealing with his issue for more than a few days.

Unless you think his statement about not receiving a response from TiVo from his written correspondence refers to a letter mailed literal hours ago.

It's a coincidence.

"Recently, our family contacted Xfinity about a high speed internet student promotion. We were advised that this would be a faster, cheaper service that we could use without problem. They advised stopping the current service, and having our student, living at home (during the pandemic), sign up for new service. But as this order was about be initiated, we were told that Xfinity/ Comcast does not support TiVOs on new service (which this would be considered). I tried to confirm this repeatedly. Some Xfinity agents have never heard of TIVO!!!! Others say that they will not active cable cards for new accounts but they are not taking it away from existing accounts. When I called TIVO, they really weren't sure what to say other than to continue my existing service--which is exactly what I have done. *I even wrote a letter by USPS to TIVO headquarters to ask if they had any information (since this would impact them greatly)--but I have not received a response.*"


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Further, if Xfinity was aware of the decision coming and ready to change their policy ASAP you'd think they'd have update their website?

What is a CableCARD? - Xfinity

Way more likely a rep lied/was misinformed.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

My daughter just moved out and into a place that doesn't have good antenna reception, so she got Xfinity Basic, the cheapest plan they offered.
Took her Roamio OTA with her then found out it wouldn't work.
My Roamio Basic had recently died beyond repair, not power supply and not hard drive, something on the motherboard, so I pulled the cable card slot out and put it in her OTA, she got a cablecard from Xfinity and it works great.
So at least in this area, they are still giving out Cablecards.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

I guess it's also possible that central is no longer supplying cable cards to local installers, so this is one of the lines they're using.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

Looks like we're going to have to hold out hope on the cable companies being "nice guys" and not taking our Tivos away. ROFL!


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I think the cable companies will be forced to offer a base package where the channels are not encrypted because there will be many complaints from consumers that their device is bricked and from manufactures who have inventory they can't sell anymore. Certainly there will be people in high places who use Tivo, who have some influence. When the cable card standard was first implemented, they didn't encrypt all of the channels and you could use a tivo without a cable card. There has to be some sort of compromise.


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

Does anyone here honestly think the greedy cable companies care? They’re salivating over this, cable cards is always something that makes the forums about customer service not being educated on and service techs hating for years.

So myself and a neighbor have an issue we are missing channels that disappeared overnight 6 months ago, and freezing/ scrambling that happens....both of us spending hours on the phone that gets nowhere, have a tech come that gets nowhere, then a pole guy comes and he says it’s frequency issue and it has to be done from headquarters and it’s still not fixed. 

This basically gives them a blank check to get rid of the cable card headache use of extra resources that they will have an opportunity to put an end to. Plus not to mention get some of us to get boxes and DVR service all they will see is dollar signs.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

radtechy said:


> So myself and a neighbor have an issue we are missing channels that disappeared overnight 6 months ago, and freezing/ scrambling that happens....both of us spending hours on the phone that gets nowhere, have a tech come that gets nowhere, then a pole guy comes and he says it's frequency issue and it has to be done from headquarters and it's still not fixed.


Something like that happened to me about 12 years ago. Turned out to be water in a box somewhere down the block. It required several very frustrating interactions with CSRs, in-home techs, and pole guys. If I had to do it all over again, I would have wired that house for OTA and internet only, even way back then.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

shwru980r said:


> I think the cable companies will be forced to offer a base package where the channels are not encrypted because there will be many complaints from consumers that their device is bricked and from manufactures who have inventory they can't sell anymore. Certainly there will be people in high places who use Tivo, who have some influence. When the cable card standard was first implemented, they didn't encrypt all of the channels and you could use a tivo without a cable card. There has to be some sort of compromise.


I hope you're right. But I'm afraid this is just wishful thinking. The number of cable card subs is so insignificant, simply forcing those few to get a box in spite of the complaints is what the cable company will do rather than roll back the security features they've spent a lot of money to deploy. IMO the chances of clear QAM making any sort of come back are nil.

I once read a statistic that out of Spectrum's 16 million video customers, only 40,000 had cable cards. That works out to a quarter of one percent.


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## timchi29 (Feb 26, 2005)

I expect comcast to start charging to provide cable cards. They wouldnt pass up making a few extra bucks.


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

I pay 2.50 each card. A box is 11 plus DVR fees. Which way makes them more money?


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Here with Comcast in the SF Bay Area I previously paid $2.50 per card, but now now my first card is free and the second is $9.95 for "Digital Add'l Outlet Svc - Includes CableCARD". I think that happened about 18 months ago, raising the price ~$4. At first they tried to raise it to almost $12, then got beat down by a regulator somewhere. 

I come out ahead overall because I also get a $10 credit for "Customer-Owned Equipment", but that credit is for having my own modem so not really.


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Here with Comcast in the SF Bay Area I previously paid $2.50 per card, but now now my first card is free and the second is $9.95 for "Digital Add'l Outlet Svc - Includes CableCARD". I think that happened about 18 months ago, raising the price ~$4. At first they tried to raise it to almost $12, then got beat down by a regulator somewhere.
> 
> I come out ahead overall because I also get a $10 credit for "Customer-Owned Equipment", but that credit is for having my own modem so not really.


Bay Area also and my plan and CableCARDs are so old that I have zero outlet fees. I have 3 cards, the first being no charge and the other two get me a $5 monthly credit on my bill. So I have 3 CCs and get $5 back from Comcast. I have no other Comcast equipment. And in fact, I'm only using one of them now in an SD HDHomeRun tuner as I've already sold one TiVo and have a Roamio Pro w/Lifetime for sale currently.

BTW, does this site still have a classified section or does it still require selling through eBay?


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

keenanSR said:


> BTW, does this site still have a classified section or does it still require selling through eBay?


eBay, but you can cross-post your listing here: 
eBay Auction Central


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Looks like word about this new cable card ruling is starting to trickle out to the mainstream press. Here's an excellent story on techhive:
Cable-box competition rules have been completely dismantled-to the detriment of consumers


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

mdavej said:


> Looks like word about this new cable card ruling is starting to trickle out to the mainstream press. Here's an excellent story on techhive:
> Cable-box competition rules have been completely dismantled-to the detriment of consumers


Even the cable company apps that are mentioned still don't record content for time shifting and commercial skipping. Certainly cable companies without an app should still be required to provide cable cards.


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

I feel like this will be the push that really accelerates the sunsetting of our beloved tivo's as we knew them. Been preparing for this for a while so I'm set whenever the last shoe drops. I have 3 osprey boxes running on my AT&T TV Now accounts. Live buffer (2 minutes for AT&T TV Now customers, 90 minutes on the same hardware if you have regular AT&T TV) gives you live tv trick play. And it has 15-second skip increments for playback of recorded content, but 30 second skip increments on the live buffer.

Still sticking with Tivo till the bitter end, or whenever Optimum jacks my rates up too high (not sure where that ceiling is, but I'm close already), or when Altice stops supporting cablecards (yes I'm getting the v58 / unauthorized errors on both my tivos, for several weeks now too).


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

blacknoi said:


> I feel like this will be the push that really accelerates the sunsetting of our beloved tivo's as we knew them. Been preparing for this for a while so I'm set whenever the last shoe drops. I have 3 osprey boxes running on my AT&T TV Now accounts. Live buffer (2 minutes for AT&T TV Now customers, 90 minutes on the same hardware if you have regular AT&T TV) gives you live tv trick play. And it has 15-second skip increments for playback of recorded content, but 30 second skip increments on the live buffer.
> 
> Still sticking with Tivo till the bitter end, or whenever Optimum jacks my rates up too high (not sure where that ceiling is, but I'm close already), or when Altice stops supporting cablecards (yes I'm getting the v58 / unauthorized errors on both my tivos, for several weeks now too).


I'm missing a lot of channels since the covid lockdown middle of March


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

radtechy said:


> I'm missing a lot of channels since the covid lockdown middle of March


Me too, and I have also been battling a "time of day" signal loss on a few channels (whatever frequency range they have NY ABC channel 7) where signal will get into the 70s anywhere between 2pm EDT and 6pm EDT..... it doesn't do it every day but "most days" and the signal always returns to normal by evening time. No changes in my house during this time, no home automation... no clue.

This has accelerated my useage of ATT TV Now as that is working normally during these times (I never lose internet ).


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## pj1983 (Dec 26, 2016)

blacknoi said:


> Me too, and I have also been battling a "time of day" signal loss on a few channels (whatever frequency range they have NY ABC channel 7) where signal will get into the 70s anywhere between 2pm EDT and 6pm EDT..... it doesn't do it every day but "most days" and the signal always returns to normal by evening time. No changes in my house during this time, no home automation... no clue.
> 
> This has accelerated my useage of ATT TV Now as that is working normally during these times (I never lose internet ).


Might be due to changes in propagation. How far are you from the transmitter? IIRC there's been some reports of unusual 2 meter and 70cm openings in the Northeast this summer. I'm not active on VHF or UHF so just going by some rumors...


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## Davelnlr_ (Jan 13, 2011)

radtechy said:


> So does this mean we have to give back our cable cards and use OTA or stream? If that's the case TiVo is dead
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, can anyone sum this up and few sentences?


I just tried to get Red Zone for Xfinity, and they told me they dont support cablecards now. X1 or the highway. Been a long run Tivo. Looks like YouTubeTV for me. Now I just need to find an unlimited internet package to use with it.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

Davelnlr_ said:


> I just tried to get Red Zone for Xfinity, and they told me they dont support cablecards now. X1 or the highway. Been a long run Tivo. Looks like YouTubeTV for me. Now I just need to find an unlimited internet package to use with it.


I just checked my TiVo and I have RedZone. Maybe because I had it before the recent cable card ruling? Don't know.

I've been a little antsy about RedZone because I picked up an X1 about two months ago and was told I would lose RedZone. But I still have it on both my X1 and TiVo.


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

I just had to pay 5 bucks more for Redzone, it was part of the top tier cable up until a few month as ago but it does work with the cable card unlike some of the other stuff that I’m supposed to get that I will live without. 

I just inquired about a real box for 11 and a DVR for it. Cloud DVR is 17 more and for 10 I can get 12 GB that’s only a few shows, I may just get Hulu live and take it on the chin even though for my condo I get the basic stuff for free the top tier is only 35 extra and that includes HBO, showtime and starz. That part I can’t beat those premiums alone add up to 35 even if you add them to Hulu or get them separate


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

brobin said:


> The only reason I stay with Comcast is because I like using my Tivo. If the Tivo is killed they'd lose me as customer since CenturyLink just installed fiber in our neighborhood and I can buy internet from them for the same or less $$.


I face a similar dilemma. Hotwire has just buried fiber throughout my condo complex, and in a few months they will go live. I have the option to keep Comcast and my Tivo, and I would really rather keep my Tivo. But as the Tivo wont work with Hotwire fiber, and Hotwire is going to include a DVR, somebody is going to have to want to keep me as a customer. The switch to Hotwire will cost absolutely nothing as it's included in the condo association fees.


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

I was waiting for CC support to end. I guess it’s now officially dead and it’s days are numbered. I love my roamio TiVos, but rarely use them these days. Years ago, I had a cable bundle, but no more. In addition to using cell phones, I also use google voice for my home land line service. It was $60 for the adapter and $0/month in fees. As far as TV, I am now primarily using an IPTV service that gives me 10x more channels for about $20/month. Includes locals, movie premiums, PPV, sports packages (nhl, nba, nfl, & mlb) and MUCH more. The only thing I primarily use Comcast for is internet. I use the TiVos to record a few Local programs. The rest I stream (Netflix and amazon). With this news, I’m now looking to probably sell my lifetime roamios and minis. Long live TIVO


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

Sell them? Who’s gonna want them if the whole country is gonna be in the same boat?


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## brobin (Feb 14, 2014)

I don't think our CC's will be turned off too soon as, at least for Comcast, they still have a lot of their own boxes that use them. We may not be able to get new ones though. So that raises another question... how long can Tivo stay in business if they can't sell any more cable capable Tivos? I don't know if the OTA market is big enough to keep them viable. I went through the slow death of ReplayTV's years ago and even after the company was gone they soldiered on (and still do) for many willing to live with the old technology. Here's hoping that Tivo strikes some kind of deal with the cable companies to keep our boxes viable. If not, I've had seven good years with Tivo and suspect we still have at least a few more. If Comcast drops support for CC's they'll lose my account for both TV & Internet as we have brand new gigabit fiber just installed by CenturyLink in our neighborhood as a viable option. In addition to my R+ I have a Roamio OTA and good reception of local stations.


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

philco782 said:


> I face a similar dilemma. Hotwire has just buried fiber throughout my condo complex, and in a few months they will go live. I have the option to keep Comcast and my Tivo, and I would really rather keep my Tivo. But as the Tivo wont work with Hotwire fiber, and Hotwire is going to include a DVR, somebody is going to have to want to keep me as a customer. The switch to Hotwire will cost absolutely nothing as it's included in the condo association fees.


My condolences on Hotwire. Terrible system. Lots of communities down here in South Florida now have Hotwire. Awful picture quality, humongous client boxes, guide data is crappy, etc, etc, etc. Stay with Comcast.


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

DigitalDawn said:


> My condolences on Hotwire. Terrible system. Lots of communities down here in South Florida now have Hotwire. Awful picture quality, humongous client boxes, guide data is crappy, etc, etc, etc. Stay with Comcast.


Someone at work blabs on and on about the gigabit internet but 30 mbps is plenty for me. Don't game so don't care about sub 10 ms pings.

But I do like to watch tv a lot. So thanks for the heads up on Hotwire! Gonna keep Comcast then.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

I think one reason for the low number of active CCs is because of the poor support from the cable companies. If there's any problems with them, it's endless headaches and people just give up. I gave up on CCs several years ago and swore I'd never use them again due to the terrible support I had with Time Warner. The TA would go out every few weeks and either need a reboot or a call to TW to reset it on their end. I called them so often I had the TW phone tree memorized to get to the CC reset rep. I had techs out multiple times and even went through the FCC route, but it never worked reliably. It was clear that TW's support was at the minimum level to meet the FCC requirements. I also called Tivo, but Tivo was never any help, which I think is the core of the problem. Tivo should have been leading the charge for reliable CC support. When it's just random cable customers complaining, the cable company can just blow them off. But if Tivo had put some legal muscle behind the complaints, then maybe the FCC would have been able to force the cable companies to deliver CC technology that actually worked. But when consumers have to fight this battle on their own, it's much easier to just give up on CCs and go with something else.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Support has gotten better over the years. I remember when I first got 2 cards for my S3 (which needed 2 cards), Comcast had to send out an installer who was surprised he got them working and it only took an hour with him having to call in. Now they have self-install kits. 

That said unless one is aware they are an option (and the cable companies don’t tell you that), most people just get a cable box.


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## LynnL999 (Oct 7, 2002)

radtechy said:


> Does anyone here honestly think the greedy cable companies care? They're salivating over this, cable cards is always something that makes the forums about customer service not being educated on and service techs hating for years.


I dunno. I think they will do whatever they need to do to retain customers. And since people with cable card TiVo's can't go anywhere else, it behooves them to keep providing support, at least for awhile.

I never thought my cable company would offer an absolutely-no-sports channels package, but they did it, as a way to retain customers who want locals and other cable channels but no sports. Without all the sports channels the TV part of my bill is under $50 a month.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

LynnL999 said:


> I dunno. I think they will do whatever they need to do to retain customers. And since people with cable card TiVo's can't go anywhere else, it behooves them to keep providing support, at least for awhile.
> 
> I never thought my cable company would offer an absolutely-no-sports channels package, but they did it, as a way to retain customers who want locals and other cable channels but no sports. Without all the sports channels the TV part of my bill is under $50 a month.


they can go OTA or rent cable boxes from the cable company


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

ajwees41 said:


> they can go OTA or rent cable boxes from the cable company


If they stop CC support, I'll not be renting their equipment and cable will be dropped. I guess I'd try one of the live streaming options.


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## LynnL999 (Oct 7, 2002)

ajwees41 said:


> they can go OTA or rent cable boxes from the cable company


Sure, they *can,* if they really want to keep cable, or live in an area where OTA is an acceptable option. I suspect there are a lot of us who keep cable because of TiVo. If I can't use TiVo anymore, I will probably go full cord-cutter.


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## eaadams (Apr 25, 2000)

Our internet reliability has just gotten too bad during Work from Home. Yesterday was the last straw when the stream went dead and the CEO of a very large company started yelling. That means service is affecting job performance & perception. So, we will be moving our internet to AT&T Fiber which just lit up on our street.

My question is we have TiVo Ramio with lifetime and a cable card. We want to keep using that for TV. So what are the requirements for Comcast to work with the cable card? (SF Bay Area, California) Do we have to maintain internet service or is there a Cable Only option that still lights up the cable card? I guess I just need minimal till Comcast pushes us away permanently w/ FCC rule.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

eaadams said:


> Our internet reliability has just gotten too bad during Work from Home. Yesterday was the last straw when the stream went dead and the CEO of a very large company started yelling. That means service is affecting job performance & perception. So, we will be moving our internet to AT&T Fiber which just lit up on our street.
> 
> My question is we have TiVo Ramio with lifetime and a cable card. We want to keep using that for TV. So what are the requirements for Comcast to work with the cable card? (SF Bay Area, California) Do we have to maintain internet service or is there a Cable Only option that still lights up the cable card? I guess I just need minimal till Comcast pushes us away permanently w/ FCC rule.


Go here, set your location and uncheck all the boxes except TV:
https://www.xfinity.com/learn/offers

There are no particular requirements for cable card. Just sign up the the package of your choice and ask for a card.

Personally, I'd take this opportunity to switch to a streaming TV package with cloud DVR. As much as I despise AT&T, the price of an AT&T TV and internet bundle is quite attractive and the channel lineup is very strong. You could use the money from the sale of your Tivo (~$250) to pay for a couple of months of service. If you'd rather not bundle, then Youtube TV would be an excellent alternative to Tivo/Comcast depending on what channels and features you want.
AT&T Bundles - Deals on TV & Internet - Check Availability
YouTube TV - Watch & DVR Live Sports, Shows & News


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

eaadams said:


> My question is we have TiVo Ramio with lifetime and a cable card. We want to keep using that for TV. So what are the requirements for Comcast to work with the cable card? (SF Bay Area, California) Do we have to maintain internet service or is there a Cable Only option that still lights up the cable card? I guess I just need minimal till Comcast pushes us away permanently w/ FCC rule.


The CableCARD would keep working with only cable service. You'll need internet service for updates to the guide and software, but that can be from another company.


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

eaadams said:


> Our internet reliability has just gotten too bad during Work from Home. Yesterday was the last straw when the stream went dead and the CEO of a very large company started yelling. That means service is affecting job performance & perception. So, we will be moving our internet to AT&T Fiber which just lit up on our street.
> 
> My question is we have TiVo Ramio with lifetime and a cable card. We want to keep using that for TV. So what are the requirements for Comcast to work with the cable card? (SF Bay Area, California) Do we have to maintain internet service or is there a Cable Only option that still lights up the cable card? I guess I just need minimal till Comcast pushes us away permanently w/ FCC rule.


To sum it up....no cable card = a big paperweight you won't be able to record anything without a CC


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## Peewee (Aug 20, 2010)

elorimer said:


> We know how cable operators will react. First, they will raise the fees for cable cards until they are in excess of their own box rental. Second, they will at best support cards in use now, and not provide cards for new installs. Third, they will not support cable cards.


A Spectrum CS Rep told me almost the same thing 2 weeks ago. She suggested I do not give up my cable card as they are not issuing new ones. Most of the techs don't know how to activate them and they don't want to waste resources training them. I'm afraid TIVO days are numbered.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

By sheer coincidence, I had ordered a Roamio OTA from Weaknees to supplement my Original Roamio Pro the weekend before the FCC announcement. I had already been paring down the Cable TV packages I subscribed to, and with the recent price increases bumping up the monthly up to what I had been paying before I dropped premiums, coupled with the fact that I would occasionally have to reset the TA, I had already decided to use whatever ends up being the Fall 2020 season to trial moving completely OTA.

I still am stuck with Charter/Spectrum for the net connection, but dropping the TV portion should cut my bill in half. There are still about 4-5 non-OTA shows in my OnePass list, but they won't be a big loss. I have way more stuff to watch with the Streaming I already have (Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Hulu which is included with my Spotify), that if I have time in front of a TV, it won't be idle.

I suspect by the end of the Calendar Year, my TA and Cable Card will be return to Spectrum. I went with the Roamio OTA as I have Tivo Minis distributing my TV, and it can still run TE3. I've never streamed with the Tivos, always using Chromecasts or FireSticks for that role.

--Carlos "As long as Mt. Wilson doesn't completely burn" V.


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## SolomonJ (Dec 5, 2015)

Unbeliever said:


> By sheer coincidence, I had ordered a Roamio OTA from Weaknees to supplement my Original Roamio Pro the weekend before the FCC announcement. I had already been paring down the Cable TV packages I subscribed to, and with the recent price increases bumping up the monthly up to what I had been paying before I dropped premiums, coupled with the fact that I would occasionally have to reset the TA, I had already decided to use whatever ends up being the Fall 2020 season to trial moving completely OTA.
> 
> I still am stuck with Charter/Spectrum for the net connection, but dropping the TV portion should cut my bill in half. There are still about 4-5 non-OTA shows in my OnePass list, but they won't be a big loss. I have way more stuff to watch with the Streaming I already have (Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Hulu which is included with my Spotify), that if I have time in front of a TV, it won't be idle.
> 
> ...


YEP! JUST DID SAME. BE SURE TO CANCEL AT THE END OF YOUR BILLING CYCLE! SPECTRUM WON'T PRORATE!


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

Unbeliever said:


> By sheer coincidence, I had ordered a Roamio OTA from Weaknees to supplement my Original Roamio Pro the weekend before the FCC announcement. I had already been paring down the Cable TV packages I subscribed to, and with the recent price increases bumping up the monthly up to what I had been paying before I dropped premiums, coupled with the fact that I would occasionally have to reset the TA, I had already decided to use whatever ends up being the Fall 2020 season to trial moving completely OTA.
> 
> I still am stuck with Charter/Spectrum for the net connection, but dropping the TV portion should cut my bill in half. There are still about 4-5 non-OTA shows in my OnePass list, but they won't be a big loss. I have way more stuff to watch with the Streaming I already have (Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Hulu which is included with my Spotify), that if I have time in front of a TV, it won't be idle.
> 
> ...


With an OTA TiVo can you still get all the channels that you pay for without a CC? And does it need to be a certain mikes away from the broadcast towers like an HD antenna?


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

radtechy said:


> With an OTA TiVo can you still get all the channels that you pay for without a CC? And does it need to be a certain mikes away from the broadcast towers like an HD antenna?


An OTA Tivo is one that can receive the channels broadcast Over-The-Air. It's just like normal antenna TV. You don't need a CC. But it's only going to be the channels which are actually broadcast in your area. That typically is the major networks along with a bunch of minor and oddball channels. So you can get stuff like NBC, ABC, etc., but also the game show channel, channels that show 80's shows, old movie channels, etc. The reception is going to definitely be dependent on your distance to the antennas and any obstructions. If you're in a major city you will likely have no problem, but rural areas might not be able to receive too much.

If you're wondering what you could receive, there are sites where you can enter your address and it can show you what it thinks you can receive, like Antenna Signal Prediction. Or if you already have an antenna, hook it up to your TV and have it do a channel scan. Many of the OTA signals have some guide data associated with it, so your TV may be able to show a guide of what's being shown on the different channels.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

radtechy said:


> With an OTA TiVo can you still get all the channels that you pay for without a CC? And does it need to be a certain mikes away from the broadcast towers like an HD antenna?


In addition to what's already been said, an OTA Tivo does have a cable tuner, but no cable card slot. So if you were able to get any cable channels without a card before, then you'll also get them on an OTA as long as you still have cable. But this situation is very rare these days. In most cases, you need a cable card to get any cable channels on a Tivo.

If you need cable channels, then you either need to keep cable and your CC Tivo, or you need to replace with a live TV streaming service like Youtube TV, Sling TV, etc. You can certainly supplement that with OTA channels on your OTA Tivo. But there are many other OTA DVR solutions that better integrate with streaming devices, like Recast, AirTV, Tablo, Channels, Google Live Channels, etc.


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## BosTV (Aug 6, 2003)

I guess I'll keep my Roamio until either it or the Cable Card dies and new CCs are no longer available. Then I'll cut the cord and just stream. For Verizon, that will mean a significant reduction in revenue, as I'll only be paying them for Internet service.

Would be a bad investment now to buy a new TiVo with lifetime service.


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

Well I guess TiVo will not be able to survive once this hits.

I don’t mind having to stream that’s fine but the one thing I will miss is the instant replay for sports. Idk how streaming devices will handle it


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

radtechy said:


> Well I guess TiVo will not be able to survive once this hits.
> 
> I don't mind having to stream that's fine but the one thing I will miss is the instant replay for sports. Idk how streaming devices will handle it


My Roku has a really good replay button; for some services it even turns on closed captions for the repeated segment.

The Apple TV, on the other hand, has the function but the Apple remote makes it almost impossible to use.


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

ej42137 said:


> My Roku has a really good replay button; for some services it even turns on closed captions for the repeated segment.
> 
> The Apple TV, on the other hand, has the function but the Apple remote makes it almost impossible to use.


The older Apple TV remotes were better IMO I hate the glide pad. But there's a workaround for it...use the remote app on you're phone and it has a 10 second back and forward button. My concern was of it would be good for replaying live content and not stuff that's already aired and archived.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

radtechy said:


> The older Apple TV remotes were better IMO I hate the glide pad. But there's a workaround for it...use the remote app on *you're* phone and it has a 10 second back and forward button. My concern was of it would be good for replaying live content and not stuff that's already aired and archived.



I have no idea what *you're* trying to say in that last sentence; if *your* intent was to give me a headache, kudos to you!

The solution I found for the glide remote was the Salt Apple TV remote from Switzerland. It works way better than a phone app.


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

ej42137 said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> The solution I found for the glide remote was the Salt Apple TV remote from Switzerland. It works way better than a phone app.


That Salt Remote looks nice, but man $80 shipped......


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## brobin (Feb 14, 2014)

I find that Antennaweb.org only shows a few channels but I actually receive 19 channels. Nocable.org seems to be a lot more accurate but in the end it all depends on distance, terrain, size and height of the antenna. I'm 50 flat miles due south from the antenna farm where, fortunately, all the transmitters are located, and I have an 8 array ChannelMaster EXTREMEtenna 80 that's mounted in the attic under a tile roof. I do use a ChannelMaster Pre-amp and an 8 port amplifier. I get ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, PBS and all their subchannels including CW and ION. Although I do have cable, I originally put in the antenna for all the TV's that are rarely used rather than pay for adapters. Over the years I added mini's and since selling our second home now have enough mini's for all of them. But when a hurricane takes out cable for a week or more I still have the antenna to fall back on. If Comcast turns off the cablecard they'll lose me as a customer completely as I can switch to CenturyLink fiber for internet at a lower cost. I have Romio+ installed and a Roamio with OTA that came from my other place so I'm ready.


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

brobin said:


> I find that Antennaweb.org only shows a few channels but I actually receive 19 channels. Nocable.org seems to be a lot more accurate but in the end it all depends on distance, terrain, size and height of the antenna. I'm 50 flat miles due south from the antenna farm where, fortunately, all the transmitters are located, and I have an 8 array ChannelMaster EXTREMEtenna 80 that's mounted in the attic under a tile roof. I do use a ChannelMaster Pre-amp and an 8 port amplifier. I get ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, PBS and all their subchannels including CW and ION. Although I do have cable, I originally put in the antenna for all the TV's that are rarely used rather than pay for adapters. Over the years I added mini's and since selling our second home now have enough mini's for all of them. But when a hurricane takes out cable for a week or more I still have the antenna to fall back on. If Comcast turns off the cablecard they'll lose me as a customer completely as I can switch to CenturyLink fiber for internet at a lower cost. I have Romio+ installed and a Roamio with OTA that came from my other place so I'm ready.


You are so right about terrain. I'm in North NJ, about 50 miles outside of NYC, and I get zero, ZERO channels via indoor antenna. I'm in the "shadow" of a mountain / the opposite side of NYC. I can at least know there is signal from WABC NY by putting an antenna outside (but it breaks up too much to watch).

I would have to mount an antenna to the roof of my house of significant size to get anything. But at least there's zero chance of flooding 

My plan B is AT&T TV Now. At least with their Osprey box, you get some trick play on live TV.


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## brobin (Feb 14, 2014)

That's the exact situation that got cable started. They'd go put an antenna on that mountain, grab the channels and put them out over cable. The channel numbers would usually be different to eliminate distortion from the actual broadcast signal. The rest is history!


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

blacknoi said:


> That Salt Remote looks nice, but man $80 shipped......


The thread starter who mentioned the Salt a while back ultimately got this one-for-all instead for a fraction of the price ($16 new, $10 used) and is very happy with it. Unlike the Salt, it's highly programmable. I have several of them. Something to consider.
TiVo remote use with APPLE TV


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

blacknoi said:


> My plan B is AT&T TV Now. At least with their Osprey box, you get some trick play on live TV.


You have to sign up for AT&T TV (with 2-yr contract) to get their Osprey box. AT&T TV Now (contract-free) doesn't offer it, although you can buy the box on eBay and use it with that service. (You get better pricing with AT&T TV if you're not afraid of the contract, though. Discounted rate the first year plus up-front Visa gift cards. Even if you cancel after 12 months and pay the ETF, you'll come out ahead versus going with AT&T TV Now.)


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mdavej said:


> The thread starter who mentioned the Salt a while back ultimately got this one-for-all instead for a fraction of the price ($16 new, $10 used) and is very happy with it. Unlike the Salt, it's highly programmable. I have several of them. Something to consider.
> TiVo remote use with APPLE TV


There's also this new $30 remote from Function 101 that's made specifically for Apple TV. Only downside is no Siri voice button.

BUTTON REMOTE FOR APPLE TV


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

blacknoi said:


> My plan B is AT&T TV Now. At least with their Osprey box, you get some trick play on live TV.


Are you sure about that? Back when I had Osprey boxes, trick play didn't work very well. There was really no live buffer at all. If I paused then resumed, it jumped to live. That could have changed since I cancelled though.

Youtube TV trick play actually works, and they have more locals and more channels overall than AT&T TV NOW. Youtube TV + HBO is the exact same price as ATTVN MAX. PLUS is cheaper than YTTV, but it has far fewer channels. There's a reason YTTV has grown to 2.3 million subs and AT&T TV NOW has shrunk from 1.5 million to 720,000.

In any case, I'd do the free trail of whatever you choose just to make sure.


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

mdavej said:


> Are you sure about that? Back when I had Osprey boxes, trick play didn't work very well. There was really no live buffer at all. If I paused then resumed, it jumped to live. That could have changed since I cancelled though.
> 
> Youtube TV trick play actually works, and they have more locals and more channels overall than AT&T TV NOW. Youtube TV + HBO is the exact same price as ATTVN MAX. PLUS is cheaper than YTTV, but it has far fewer channels. There's a reason YTTV has grown to 2.3 million subs and AT&T TV NOW has shrunk from 1.5 million to 720,000.
> 
> In any case, I'd do the free trail of whatever you choose just to make sure.


I have 3 of them and with ATT TV Now (Grandfathered Go-Big), and today you get a (small) 2 minute live buffer. But trick play within it works exactly as it did with Tivo. Regular AT&T TV users get a 90 minute trick play live buffer on the same hardware (its restricted by the backend unfortunately, but "now" customers pay much less $ for many more channels when compared to regular AT&T TV....save for DVR space and the live buffer delta [2 vs 90 minutes]).

If you subscribe to AT&T TV (not "now") yes that's a contract, no question. But Now customers can still log into the Osprey box, just with the reduced live tv buffer, and a reduced (20 hour) DVR space. And to answer the other person's question, I was a beta tester for the Osprey box as a Now customer (so got 1 for free), and then purchased 2 more off ebay used as it is correct that the only official channel to purchase them new / retail is with a new AT&T TV subscription. Now customers have no such "new" purchase option. Ebay is the only route.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

blacknoi said:


> but "now" customers pay much less $ for many more channels when compared to regular AT&T TV


This is only true for folks like you who are on discounted grandfathered plans. Anyone who has signed up this year gets charged the same regular prices for the same package of channels and same 500-hr cloud DVR, whether on AT&T TV or AT&T TV Now (although the former does charge an additional RSN fee while the latter does not if you have a package that includes RSNs). But then AT&T TV customers get deeply discounted rates the first year, a free Osprey box, and (if they sign up online) Visa gift cards.

None of this matters to you, of course, since you're on a grandfathered plan. Just clarifying for anyone else who isn't currently a customer.


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> This is only true for folks like you who are on discounted grandfathered plans. Anyone who has signed up this year gets charged the same regular prices for the same package of channels and same 500-hr cloud DVR, whether on AT&T TV or AT&T TV Now (although the former does charge an additional RSN fee while the latter does not if you have a package that includes RSNs). But then AT&T TV customers get deeply discounted rates the first year, a free Osprey box, and (if they sign up online) Visa gift cards.
> 
> None of this matters to you, of course, since you're on a grandfathered plan. Just clarifying for anyone else who isn't currently a customer.


Fair point, not only that, I have $25/month off from my legacy unlimited AT&T wireless plan too.

But if you just turn to the technology itself, AT&T TV does offer trick play with their box, and a "cable" experience with channel numbers so if trying to make a transition away from tivo to something else, this is one of the easier ones (especially if you have family members who want to 'surf' live channels).


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

i just re-upped my comcast triple-play for 2 more years, cablecard as my primary device, no hd fee, current package with a few extra channels, faster internet (300/20). this means 6 years without a base price increase, and a 30 grace period to change my mind - not too bad, i'm happy.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

ej42137 said:


> My Roku has a really good replay button; for some services it even turns on closed captions for the repeated segment.
> 
> The Apple TV, on the other hand, has the function but the Apple remote makes it almost impossible to use.


I wish TiVo would add this feature. Captions on replay.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

radtechy said:


> So does this mean we have to give back our cable cards and use OTA or stream? If that's the case TiVo is dead
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, can anyone sum this up and few sentences?


It means we need to complain to Congress. They make the laws. We need a law requiring the major cable companies to continue supporting cablecards.

I wonder if this means an acceleration of cord cutting.

(Higher DVR rental prices pushed me to TiVo.)


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

cable & satellite providers are shedding customers by the millions, if anyone believes that they're going to voluntarily lose thousands more to streaming services by cutting off cable cards, you haven't thought it through. i predict this would have been a long and slow transition before the pandemic, even slower with 8 million americans recently added to the poverty roles.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> i just re-upped my comcast triple-play for 2 more years, cablecard as my primary device, no hd fee, current package with a few extra channels, faster internet (300/20). this means 6 years without a base price increase, and a 30 grace period to change my mind - not too bad, i'm happy.


Comcast moved most of their fees out of their contract price (sports, broadcast, etc) so you can expect your bill to go up despite being under contract.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

morac said:


> Comcast moved most of their fees out of their contract price (sports, broadcast, etc) so you can expect your bill to go up despite being under contract.


i've been a customer long enough to know they raise their fees the first of every year, just like dtv - it's usually a small percentage compared to the total bill, and i can handle two increases - if it gets out of hand, i'll look elsewhere, but now it's the best overall deal.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

morac said:


> Comcast moved most of their fees out of their contract price (sports, broadcast, etc) so you can expect your bill to go up despite being under contract.


This is not okay. As far as contracts are concerned, in my moral opinion, the price should stay fixed throughout the term period. If I'm agreeing not to leave for a two year period, they should agree not to raise anything that is a monthly expense for that same period. Eat the costs until I'm done with the contract.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

TKnight206 said:


> This is not okay. As far as contracts are concerned, in my moral opinion, the price should stay fixed throughout the term period. If I'm agreeing not to leave for a two year period, they should agree not to raise anything that is a monthly expense for that same period. Eat the costs until I'm done with the contract.


If it is any consolation to you, even the bulk-service contracts that Comcast executes typically only stipulate the "service fee" as a fixed entity. Ancillary fees, if any (such as the Broadcast TV Fee or Franchise Fee), and taxes are not typically specified in the contract and are subject to increases. At best, the fee increases can be capped at a certain percentage per annum.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

chiguy50 said:


> If it is any consolation to you, even the bulk-service contracts that Comcast executes typically only stipulate the "service fee" as a fixed entity. Ancillary fees, if any (such as the Broadcast TV Fee or Franchise Fee), and taxes are not typically specified in the contract and are subject to increases. At best, the fee increases can be capped at a certain percentage per annum.


My contract is expiring soon and checking the "deals", they are pretty bad. I found a 2-year deal similar to what I had except instead of the price locking for 2 years, it locks for 1 year and then automatically goes up $10 for year two. I'm not sure how that differs than not being under contract.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

morac said:


> My contract is expiring soon and checking the "deals", they are pretty bad. I found a 2-year deal similar to what I had except instead of the price locking for 2 years, it locks for 1 year and then automatically goes up $10 for year two. I'm not sure how that differs than not being under contract.


my offer wasn't publicized (i was shopping), it was proactively offered when i called the resolution team about a billing error - the erroneous charge was credited, i accepted the deal with a 30-day opportunity to withdraw, and couldn't find anything close with the competition - this starts years 5 & 6 at the same price for my triple play, no increase during the contract.

you may want to call.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

chiguy50 said:


> If it is any consolation to you, even the bulk-service contracts that Comcast executes typically only stipulate the "service fee" as a fixed entity. Ancillary fees, if any (such as the Broadcast TV Fee or Franchise Fee), and taxes are not typically specified in the contract and are subject to increases. At best, the fee increases can be capped at a certain percentage per annum.


At least FiOS does this and won't raise anything under contract. But if you make any change they technically drop the old contract and create a new one allowing them to charge a higher ee. Like the do with the Broadcast Network fee or Regional Sports fees. I had that happen a couple of times to me when I made changes. No I try to avoid making any changes while in the middle of a contract.


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

I’m actually on the fence of dumping my 2 TiVo’s that I pay 10 a month for and just stream. I’m still a cable customer and get a lot of my bill covered from my HOA fees and can just sign in with the provider log in for live TV and If I get Hulu bundle ad free (which is a huge reason why I got TiVo in the first place was the commercials) will cost 17 and my cable cards and TiVo service is 27. 

I want some feedback. On options, but also I would like a new modern version of TV guide so I know what’s on. Any suggestions?


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

radtechy said:


> I'm actually on the fence of dumping my 2 TiVo's that I pay 10 a month for and just stream. I'm still a cable customer and get a lot of my bill covered from my HOA fees and can just sign in with the provider log in for live TV and If I get Hulu bundle ad free (which is a huge reason why I got TiVo in the first place was the commercials) will cost 17 and my cable cards and TiVo service is 27.
> 
> I want some feedback. On options, but also I would like a new modern version of TV guide so I know what's on. Any suggestions?


Swapping a local DVR for a service like Hulu Live TV can take some getting used to. Their live, on-demand, and cloud DVR features are very different from what you may expect, though you may like them. I suggest you start a separate thread to get some attention to this topic. I did a quick search here on thread titles, but all I found were folks wondering why TiVo won't integrate this direct competitor into their DVRs, though there's some good stuff in the TiVo Alternatives thread. [Search within TiVo Alternatives thread for "Hulu"].


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## sho1 (Apr 25, 2020)

Peewee said:


> A Spectrum CS Rep told me almost the same thing 2 weeks ago. She suggested I do not give up my cable card as they are not issuing new ones. Most of the techs don't know how to activate them and they don't want to waste resources training them. I'm afraid TIVO days are numbered.


Interesting, must depend on Rep or location. I'm in MN and just called to order a 2nd card about 3 weeks ago (1st was back in April) and heard no such thing, had no problem getting it ordered or sent out (recvd in 2 days), Also no trouble getting it registered to my box.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Unbeliever said:


> I suspect by the end of the Calendar Year, my TA and Cable Card will be returned to Spectrum.


I just finished turning in the CC and TA. That should knock off $75 or so off my cable bill. The only short-term issue I may have is figuring out how to watch the Doctor Who Christmas special.

--Carlos V.


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

Unbeliever said:


> I just finished turning in the CC and TA. That should knock off $75 or so off my cable bill. The only short-term issue I may have is figuring out how to watch the Doctor Who Christmas special.
> 
> --Carlos V.


Why did you decide to ditch TiVo now? Did they say that they won't support CC anymore? You wanted to stream instead? Preparing when/if it will happen?


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

radtechy said:


> Why did you decide to ditch TiVo now?


I didn't. If you read the post I self-quoted, I switched to a Roamio OTA.

--Carlos V.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

Unbeliever said:


> I just finished turning in the CC and TA. That should knock off $75 or so off my cable bill. The only short-term issue I may have is figuring out how to watch the Doctor Who Christmas special.
> 
> --Carlos V.


Do you have adequate speed for watching streaming video?

It looks like Live TV Streaming | Sling TV has BBC America under either package. I don't know if there'll be free trials or not, but it may be worth the $30 to record the Doctor Who Christmas special if it's that important to you. 10 hours of free DVR recording with either basic package.

Hulu might have BBC America On Demand, but I'm not 100% positive. Something to check out.

Amazon Video might be another option. But how long after airing, no idea.

I wish you luck.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

I'm set. I just have to find it. I don't have to watch it day-and-date, either.

--Carlos V.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

If on Hulu, it’s only $2/mo, BF special.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TKnight206 said:


> Do you have adequate speed for watching streaming video?
> 
> It looks like Live TV Streaming | Sling TV has BBC America under either package. I don't know if there'll be free trials or not, but it may be worth the $30 to record the Doctor Who Christmas special if it's that important to you. 10 hours of free DVR recording with either basic package.
> 
> ...


Or get Philo. I'm grandfathered into the $16 plan. Now its $20 a month.. But they have unlimited storage for recordings. Just a 30 day limit. I record Dr, Who on Philo. And other BBC America programs.

Sent from my Tab A7 Gray


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## steelersruleman (Aug 29, 2014)

Unbeliever said:


> I just finished turning in the CC and TA. That should knock off $75 or so off my cable bill. The only short-term issue I may have is figuring out how to watch the Doctor Who Christmas special.
> 
> --Carlos V.


Another option, maybe:

Spectrum offers to Internet Customers only Spectrum TV Essentials for $14.99/month which includes BBC America in it's 60 channel lineup.

The 60 channel lineup is the same as Philo TV, with the only difference I know of being The Weather Channel which Spectrum Essentials has, and Philo TV does not.

And that $14.99/month has no tax or fees added to it since the channels are STREAMED ONLY for Spectrum ISP customers only(using a ROKU or APPLE TV). No locals, or other expensive channels too boot. So that $14.99 is the only addition to your bill.

This is over a year old, but I am pretty sure it is still accurate:

Spectrum's streaming service: TV Essentials package and channels | Tom's Guide


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## Sam Ray (Jul 30, 2012)

paxon1 said:


> Does not look good for the Cable Card from FCC 20-124 Today. 9-4-20
> 
> https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-20-124A1.pdf
> 
> ...


Page 8 says _We agree and further find that competitive market forces should incentivize cable operators to continue to support retail CableCARD devices.
_
Page 9 says _we expect that cable operators will make every effort to retain subscribers by continuing to support retail CableCARD devices, even in the absence of the CableCARD support rules_.


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## robr (Jan 29, 2002)

Just tried online to upgrade my Xfinity TV package and was told I had to return my cablecard and rent a box. So I called in and was told the same thing. If I change my TV package at all, I have to give up my cablecard. I have 4 Tivo minis I'd also have to replace, so I won't be upgrading our TV package. Sorry wife.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

robr said:


> Just tried online to upgrade my Xfinity TV package and was told I had to return my cablecard and rent a box. So I called in and was told the same thing. If I change my TV package at all, I have to give up my cablecard. I have 4 Tivo minis I'd also have to replace, so I won't be upgrading our TV package. Sorry wife.


They are likely telling you that because there are a number of channels you can only tune with one of Comcast's boxes (or a third party partner device - Xfinity Stream App on Xfinity TV Partner Devices FAQs - Xfinity Support) and not with CableCards because they are not QAM channels. Phone support should be able to override that though. If they can't just tell them you plan to use a Roku or Fire TV box.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

robr said:


> Just tried online to upgrade my Xfinity TV package and was told I had to return my cablecard and rent a box. So I called in and was told the same thing. If I change my TV package at all, I have to give up my cablecard. I have 4 Tivo minis I'd also have to replace, so I won't be upgrading our TV package. Sorry wife.


Escalate to someone higher up. If they say no, call back and escalate to someone else. Keep trying. Let's hope those employees are misinformed.


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## Sam Ray (Jul 30, 2012)

robr said:


> Just tried online to upgrade my Xfinity TV package and was told I had to return my cablecard and rent a box. So I called in and was told the same thing. If I change my TV package at all, I have to give up my cablecard. I have 4 Tivo minis I'd also have to replace, so I won't be upgrading our TV package. Sorry wife.


Call Tivo.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Sam Ray said:


> Call Tivo.


What can TiVo do about it?


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## Sam Ray (Jul 30, 2012)

mdavej said:


> What can TiVo do about it?


Tivo is highly dependent on CableCards. I expect them to be very concerned if a cable company refuses to provide CableCards. Even if they cannot help you *now* I think they would want to have evidence for why the law is required that requires cable companies to support CableCards. They might however have encountered your problem (with your provider) and determined a solution. Unlike the cable company, they are motivated to solve the problem using CableCards.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Sam Ray said:


> Tivo is highly dependent on CableCards. I expect them to be very concerned if a cable company refuses to provide CableCards. Even if they cannot help you *now* I think they would want to have evidence for why the law is required that requires cable companies to support CableCards. They might however have encountered your problem (with your provider) and determined a solution. Unlike the cable company, they are motivated to solve the problem using CableCards.


The fact that the law no longer requires cable card support is the subject of this thread. There's absolutely nothing TiVo can do. Calling them is a waste of time.


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## Sam Ray (Jul 30, 2012)

mdavej said:


> The fact that the law no longer requires cable card support is the subject of this thread. There's absolutely nothing TiVo can do. Calling them is a waste of time.


My suggestion is for robr, not you. What difference does it make to you if robr calls Tivo? It will not hurt you a bit.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Sam Ray said:


> My suggestion is for robr, not you. What difference does it make to you if robr calls Tivo? It will not hurt you a bit.


I have as much right to give advice to robr as you and let him know such a call is pointless.

You seem to think that cable card is still a legal requirement. It isn't. Neither Tivo nor robr have a leg to stand on.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

Complain to your members of Congress.


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

robr said:


> Just tried online to upgrade my Xfinity TV package and was told I had to return my cablecard and rent a box. So I called in and was told the same thing. If I change my TV package at all, I have to give up my cablecard. I have 4 Tivo minis I'd also have to replace, so I won't be upgrading our TV package. Sorry wife.


Oh, now this worries me. I've been wanting to upgrade my cable package but maybe now I will hold off awhile. I really hate spending time on the phone with Comcast trying to fix things.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

morac said:


> They are likely telling you that because there are a number of channels you can only tune with one of Comcast's boxes (or a third party partner device - Xfinity Stream App on Xfinity TV Partner Devices FAQs - Xfinity Support) and not with CableCards because they are not QAM channels. Phone support should be able to override that though. If they can't just tell them you plan to use a Roku or Fire TV box.


Changing an Xfinity plan sometimes seems like playing a game of Jenga. I ought to be able to make the simple request that my new plan allow an "Xfinity TV Partner Device" as my "primary outlet", with my two CableCARD devices as "additional outlets". Have you tried something like this? In my experience it won't go well, and I'll spend two or three billing cycles reassembling all the Jenga blocks.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Changing an Xfinity plan sometimes seems like playing a game of Jenga. I ought to be able to make the simple request that my new plan allow an "Xfinity TV Partner Device" as my "primary outlet", with my two CableCARD devices as "additional outlets". Have you tried something like this? In my experience it won't go well, and I'll spend two or three billing cycles reassembling all the Jenga blocks.


Comcast won't allow a partner device to be the primary outlet if you own Comcast equipment. I'm pretty sure CCs are considered Comcast equipment even though they don't charge for them.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

morac said:


> Comcast won't allow a partner device to be the primary outlet if you own Comcast equipment. I'm pretty sure CCs are considered Comcast equipment even though they don't charge for them.


Thanks, I knew there was a Catch-22 in there somewhere. Don't want to pull that particular Jenga block out. Oh and FYI they do charge for the cards here: the first one is free, the second one is $9.95/mo.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Thanks, I knew there was a Catch-22 in there somewhere. Don't want to pull that particular Jenga block out. Oh and FYI they do charge for the cards here: the first one is free, the second one is $9.95/mo.


While you are certainly justified in feeling that way since the end result is the same, it is not true that Comcast is charging $9.95 for the additional CableCARD. The $9.95 fee is for an additional digital outlet regardless of whether it is serviced by a CableCARD or other device (see the below extracts from the Services & Pricing schedule in your area effective April 1, 2021). This $9.95 ADO charge has been their practice for many years now as a rather transparent attempt to circumvent the FCC's former policy guidance for CableCARD charges. In fact, in most cases today Comcast does not charge any fee for the CableCARDs it issues although that pricing is still not uniform throughout their corporate footprint.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I have 2 card and I'm not being charged for cards or an additional outlet. I used to be charged the additional outlet fee, but that was removed with my last contract this past winter.










My bill is $99.99 for Select+ (TV and Internet) and $27.05 for the Broadcast and Sports Fees, with $1.40 for other fees and taxes.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

chiguy50 said:


> While you are certainly justified in feeling that way since the end result is the same, it is not true that Comcast is charging $9.95 for the additional CableCARD. The $9.95 fee is for an additional digital outlet regardless of whether it is serviced by a CableCARD or other device (see the below extracts from the Services & Pricing schedule in your area effective April 1, 2021). This $9.95 ADO charge has been their practice for many years now as a rather transparent attempt to circumvent the FCC's former policy guidance for CableCARD charges. In fact, in most cases today Comcast does not charge any fee for the CableCARDs it issues although that pricing is still not uniform throughout their corporate footprint.
> 
> View attachment 59567
> 
> ...


As you say the end result is the same, as is their intent. The charge is indeed for the outlet, but with "Includes CableCARD" in the description. I am in the San Francisco Bay Area.









Below is my bill from a few years ago, when they were directly charging for the cards. The second $1.50 shouldn't have been included, but every time I asked about that they told me trying to remove it would break everything and increase the overall cost. As long as nobody touched it this grandfathered deal lasted a very long time, but eventually they found a way around it. They first tried to raise the price to almost $12 without notice, then got slapped down by a regulator and came back with the $9.95 fee tied only to the outlet.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

Back in the days of analog cable I remember hiding my downstairs TV in a back room from the cable guy when he came to hook up our new place so I wouldn't have to pay an extra monthly fee.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

My area has stopped playing that game, and as a result my bill went down considerably at the beginning of the year. For some reason, the cable cards, and the additional outlets associated with them, are now gone from the bill, no +, no -. We'll see what happens next.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Mine did as well, but there is a caveat. You need to be on a 2 year contract.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

morac said:


> Mine did as well, but there is a caveat. You need to be on a 2 year contract.


Err... How can I find out if I'm under contract or not? I'm wondering if I ended back under contract when I upped my internet speed last year maybe? (It wasn't mentioned, but on the other hand, at the time I wouldn't have cared).


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

kdmorse said:


> Err... *How can I find out if I'm under contract or not?* I'm wondering if I ended back under contract when I upped my internet speed last year maybe? (It wasn't mentioned, but on the other hand, at the time I wouldn't have cared).


Just check your billing statement, whether on-line or in the .pdf document as shown below.

Then you can find the contract agreement posted in your on-line account under Settings > Account Details > Legal Agreements & Contracts.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Have to wonder if a similar effort assisted in snuffing the CableCARD mandate.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1390298451435458561


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## TishTash (Jan 24, 2008)

Sam Ray said:


> Tivo ... would want to have evidence for why the law is required that requires cable companies to support CableCards.


I dunno man, that law is toast. So bringing it back from the dead is highly unlikely. I wouldn't bet the house on it.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

It was an FCC rule, not a “law”.


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## Barry Demchak (Apr 16, 2020)

Latest experience from Xfinity/Comcast in Sarasota ... not bad, really. Xfinity store still has cable cards, they call out techs when there's trouble getting a cable card and Tivo to work, and they don't charge for the first cable card. The second one is $7.50/mo. With a Moca network, Tivo Bolt and Tivo mini, I don't need more than one cable card. All good.

The flip side is that cable cards are Tivos are rare, and so getting them paired can be tough for techs and customer support agents. Patience and time help a lot.

All in all, Xfinity gets good marks for all of this.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

Barry Demchak said:


> Latest experience from Xfinity/Comcast in Sarasota ... not bad, really.


I had no problems with a recent FIOS install either. I do hate the pairing process because in most cases it takes a long time. When my installer left, I thought I was all good because I could get my RSN (NESN). Then I noticed a few stations would not come in. Then after calling in, they assumed it was a bad card, and overnighted another one. Then that took another couple of hours to get validated. I did say to the phone rep, "I thought you were going to give up", and he said "We never give up!".

Pricewise with Verizon FIOS it is $5/mo per cableCARD. But, it is the only monthly equipment charge on my account, since I use my own router. So far, about two months in, the service has been rock solid. And I am paying less than I was with Comcast with much faster speeds.


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## MrDell (Jul 8, 2012)

pl1 said:


> Pricewise with Verizon FIOS it is $5/mo per cableCARD. But, it is the only monthly equipment charge on my account, since I use my own router. So far, about two months in, the service has been rock solid. And I am paying less than I was with Comcast with much faster speeds.


Same card rental price here in RI&#8230; never any problems or interruptions with service! Tivo really plays well with Verizon Fios. We also have Cox as a provider here, and I used them for a while, but using tuning adapters are big pain and I was having to reboot them often. So much easier with Verizon.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

MrDell said:


> Same card rental price here in RI&#8230; never any problems or interruptions with service! Tivo really plays well with Verizon Fios. We also have Cox as a provider here, and I used them for a while, but using tuning adapters are big pain and I was having to reboot them often. So much easier with Verizon.


Agreed! One thing I did the minute my TiVo was paired/validated is to make a backup to a brand new drive using MFS Tools. In the event I need to replace my hdd, I'm good to go without having to go through the pairing process again!


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## TitanTiger (May 5, 2009)

I'm running into this issue now. I'm with Spectrum using a cablecard with my Roamio Plus and Premiere 4. I'd like to switch to the other cable provider in my area because of issues we've been having with internet service but the other company doesn't offer cablecards. In fact, they don't even offer a traditional cable box. They have "premier streaming partners" - YouTubeTV, Hulu Live, Sling and Fubo that you can use on your Apple TV, Roku, etc. Or you can go with their "traditional" cable packages which uses a set top box that streaming over the internet as well. But the writing is apparently on the wall for Tivo set-top DVRs.

I don't know why Tivo never went the route of creating a streaming service themselves and offering the Tivo interface to run a cloud based DVR. But enjoy it while you can, folks. Because within the next 5 years or so, you'll likely be learning some other new streaming-based set up sans Tivo.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I am planning to walk over to our local Xfinity office tomorrow and say goodbye and turn in our cable card. YouTube TV and Channels DVR is our future well actually our past since we have been using the last month or so.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

zalusky said:


> I am planning to walk over to our local Xfinity office tomorrow and say goodbye and turn in our cable card. YouTube TV and Channels DVR is our future well actually our past since we have been using the last month or so.


The deed is done. I was surprised as they did not ask why or counter offer just clicked the button. Of course I am waiting now for an email confirmation.


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## randyb359 (Jan 3, 2009)

pl1 said:


> Agreed! One thing I did the minute my TiVo was paired/validated is to make a backup to a brand new drive using MFS Tools. In the event I need to replace my hdd, I'm good to go without having to go through the pairing process again!


You're suppose to repair the card when replacing the hard drive? I replaced mine and didn't repair the card. It works most of the time. I do get the cable card pairing screen occasionally.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

randyb359 said:


> You're suppose to repair the card when replacing the hard drive? I replaced mine and didn't repair the card. It works most of the time. I do get the cable card pairing screen occasionally.


Yes, you have to call the cable company and tell them that you have a new drive and need the cableCARD paired/validated. If you go to SETTINGS>HELP>ACCOUNT & SETTINGS>CABLECARD DECODER>CABLE CARD OPTIONS>CABLECARD MENU>CONDITIONAL ACCESS and if you have VAL ? it is not paired. That said, some cable companies don't require it to be paired and if you are not missing any channels, leave well enough alone.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

zalusky said:


> I am planning to walk over to our local Xfinity office tomorrow and say goodbye and turn in our cable card. YouTube TV and Channels DVR is our future well actually our past since we have been using the last month or so.


How do you like Channels compared to Tivo? Does it have 30-sec skip and/or a quick play equivalent?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

zalusky said:


> I am planning to walk over to our local Xfinity office tomorrow and say goodbye and turn in our cable card. YouTube TV and Channels DVR is our future well actually our past since we have been using the last month or so.


What is the purpose of Channels if you have YTTV?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I *think* folks like the Channels DVR functionality better (including comskip etc.) plus you can integrate other sources into it.

Was wondering the same myself, but I haven't used either. Was looking at the combo for future use if Tivo's decline accelerates.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

slowbiscuit said:


> How do you like Channels compared to Tivo? Does it have 30-sec skip and/or a quick play equivalent?


We are in the process of transitioning to Channels DVR here, using TiVo mostly for live TV and Channels DVR for recordings. For one thing in Channels DVR commercial skip is available on all shows, within about 20 minutes after an hour-long show and the results are user editable too.

Re skip/seek, Channels is different: you can adjust FF and REW to 3, 7, 10, 15, or 30 seconds independently, with different settings for normal shows, sports, and movies. It does not have Quick Mode, which I've never used that on TiVo either, but that has been officially requested by some users on the Channels Community forum.



mdavej said:


> What is the purpose of Channels if you have YTTV?


Channels DVR can record from YTTV. Many users find the commercial skip, navigation, and other features more sophisticated than YTTV's own cloud DVR.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Channels DVR can record from YTTV. Many users find the commercial skip, navigation, and other features more sophisticated than YTTV's own cloud DVR.


Thanks. Makes sense. Those would not be worth the additional expense to me.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

mdavej said:


> Thanks. Makes sense. Those would not be worth the additional expense to me.


Channels can also aggregate sources. There are several locals not available on YTTV that are available on antenna/locast and that I can seamlessly merge with YouTube TV via channels.

I actually use them both depending.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> How do you like Channels compared to Tivo? Does it have 30-sec skip and/or a quick play equivalent?


It's passing the WAF factor where YouTube TV was a harder sell. The com skip is better than TiVo IMHO. I really like the season pass options like keep the last 1/2/3/&#8230; episodes. Auto delete after watching etc.

You can also create favorite channel groups and order the channels within the groups.
Where you have duplicate channels because you aggregate locals and YTTV you can create prioritize which is used for recordings. IE Antenna may have better resolution so use that or Antenna has a weaker signal on a certain channel so you YTTV for that channel.

You can then easily dump/change sources and keep the same UI.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

mdavej said:


> Thanks. Makes sense. Those would not be worth the additional expense to me.


Just to be clear, Channels DVR doesn't have a lifetime option like TiVo, right? What pushed me toward TiVo was the ever-increasing cost of renting a (legacy) DVR from Comcast.

Off-topic, but I noticed the "Additional Outlet" charges for my cablecards have disappeared from my bill. Is this because of the EBB program?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

TKnight206 said:


> Just to be clear, Channels DVR doesn't have a lifetime option like TiVo, right? What pushed me toward TiVo was the ever-increasing cost of renting a (legacy) DVR from Comcast.
> 
> Off-topic, but I noticed the "Additional Outlet" charges for my cablecards have disappeared from my bill. Is this because of the EBB program?


My understanding is Channels is $8/month or $80/year, no lifetime option.

I can't explain your Comcast bill. Sounds like a billing error to me.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

mdavej said:


> My understanding is Channels is $8/month or $80/year, no lifetime option.
> 
> I can't explain your Comcast bill. Sounds like a billing error to me.


Dividing $80 between me and my spouse thats $3.33 per month per spouse. I think its a pretty good deal to keep the same UI and show archive be able to mix/match and switch content providers with ease.

As nice as lifetime was it destroys their revenue stream and as we saw with Tivo - investment towards those customers.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

TKnight206 said:


> Just to be clear, Channels DVR doesn't have a lifetime option like TiVo, right? What pushed me toward TiVo was the ever-increasing cost of renting a (legacy) DVR from Comcast.


Channels is cheaper than TiVo, and we're paying them so they can pay for guide data ...and so their small team of devs can eat.  So far they don't offer a Lifetime option, but after all they're not selling hardware.



TKnight206 said:


> Off-topic, but I noticed the "Additional Outlet" charges for my cablecards have disappeared from my bill. Is this because of the EBB program?





mdavej said:


> I can't explain your Comcast bill. Sounds like a billing error to me.


This varies by region. Here in the SF Bay Area I get charged $9.95 for "Add'l Outlet Svc, Includes CableCARD", but others around the country have reported wildly different billing situations. (That $9.95 replaced a $12 charge that got swatted down by regulators, after they without sufficient legal warning imposed that in place of existing fees. It was a particularly big jump for me, as for many years I'd been billed a grandfathered $1.50 charge for second CableCARDs, but I had lucked out for a while anyway.)


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

TKnight206 said:


> Just to be clear, Channels DVR doesn't have a lifetime option like TiVo, right? What pushed me toward TiVo was the ever-increasing cost of renting a (legacy) DVR from Comcast.
> 
> Off-topic, but I noticed the "Additional Outlet" charges for my cablecards have disappeared from my bill. Is this because of the EBB program?


A lot of areas, including mine, have removed Additional Outlet Fees for cablecard devices early this year.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

zalusky said:


> Dividing $80 between me and my spouse thats $3.33 per month per spouse. I think its a pretty good deal to keep the same UI and show archive be able to mix/match and switch content providers with ease.
> 
> As nice as lifetime was it destroys their revenue stream and as we saw with Tivo - investment towards those customers.


Are you sure it destroyed their revenue stream with TiVo? I thought what hurt TiVo was selling to a company (Rovi) some have called a "patent troll."



kdmorse said:


> A lot of areas, including mine, have removed Additional Outlet Fees for cablecard devices early this year.


I'll find out tomorrow when my bill PDF generates if it's still gone. I suspect it's because I'm on the EBB program, but maybe I should call their billing dept. for sure cause I am curious. If the $10 (2 times $5) customer-owned equipment thing is still active, that'd be a plus. It's like they're paying me to use the cablecards.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

TKnight206 said:


> Are you sure it destroyed their revenue stream with TiVo? I thought what hurt TiVo was selling to a company (Rovi) some have called a "patent troll."


What I mean is once you have lifetime you are no longer a customer they are interested in. You no longer pay for day to day expenses or investment.
Basically they had to sell because their viability was almost toast.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

It appears I'm not being charged for cablecards anymore. I'll have to ask billing as to why the fees are removed. I also just got a courtesy sports adjustment because of no live sports in 2020. It also appears my plan went from 1GB (technically 940 down) to 1200 Mbps per month.



zalusky said:


> What I mean is once you have lifetime you are no longer a customer they are interested in. You no longer pay for day to day expenses or investment.
> Basically they had to sell because their viability was almost toast.


I disagree. Lifetime is just a multi-year discount all at once. It's like I'm prepaying for something. I don't know why they decided to sell to Rovi. I feel like it was a bad decision. Maybe if one of us one day becomes a multi-billionaire, we could buy the company and bring it back to its glory days.

To clarify, I think they factor in that even with lifetime, someone will eventually buy new equipment. Not necessarily because they break down, but because people may want newer devices.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

TKnight206 said:


> It appears I'm not being charged for cablecards anymore. I'll have to ask billing as to why the fees are removed. I also just got a courtesy sports adjustment because of no live sports in 2020. It also appears my plan went from 1GB (technically 940 down) to 1200 Mbps per month.
> 
> I disagree. Lifetime is just a multi-year discount all at once. It's like I'm prepaying for something. I don't know why they decided to sell to Rovi. I feel like it was a bad decision. Maybe if one of us one day becomes a multi-billionaire, we could buy the company and bring it back to its glory days.
> 
> To clarify, I think they factor in that even with lifetime, someone will eventually buy new equipment. Not necessarily because they break down, but because people may want newer devices.


And look at how many of us are still on Roamios even though they are slower. To buy new equipment there needs to be a value proposition and the world has morphed to streaming. Tivo is fast becoming the VCR as the world moves on. Tivo stream is buried in competition from TV manufacturers and the Apple/Amazon/Google big guys. Yes selling to Rovi hurt them because it ruined the guide data but it did not matter because the world is changing and there is no more growth in traditional TV. Cord cutting has hit cable and satellite.

I have been a Tivo customer as it says since 2002 and I just walked away. There are so many choices now and Tivo just sits there.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

slowbiscuit said:


> How do you like Channels compared to Tivo? Does it have 30-sec skip and/or a quick play equivalent?


Update to my previous reply: they've added Slow/Quick Mode to the Channels DVR beta client for Apple TV. They always do Apple TV first, so I can't test it in my Fire TV and Android apps yet. It appears to be not as one-button-simple as TiVo, but offers more speed options. See this Channels Community post for details: Feature Request: playback speed This is in addition to the adjustable forward/reverse skip feature.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Update to my previous reply: they've added Slow/Quick Mode to the Channels DVR beta client for Apple TV. They always do Apple TV first, so I can't test it in my Fire TV and Android apps yet. It appears to be not as one-button-simple as TiVo, but offers more speed options. See this Channels Community post for details: Feature Request: playback speed This is in addition to the adjustable forward/reverse skip feature.


Nice! Did they say somewhere how it works? Do you have to long hold on the play button and then select a speed? Similar question with adjustable skip.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

zalusky said:


> Nice! Did they say somewhere how it works? Do you have to long hold on the play button and then select a speed? Similar question with adjustable skip.


They didn't say, so I asked in that Channels Community thread. No response yet. While over there I noticed this beta feature is also available for iOS (iPhones/iPads), not just tvOS (Apple TV).


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

zalusky said:


> Nice! Did they say somewhere how it works? Do you have to long hold on the play button and then select a speed? Similar question with adjustable skip.


As I suspected, it's not a one-click operation: on a Fire TV remote we'll have to click the bottom of the Navigation ring, which makes the top banner (a.k.a. control panel) appear, then at least a few more clicks to navigate to the speed menu and select a speed, then exit by clicking the Back button. Feature Request: playback speed


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## mikey1273 (Nov 6, 2017)

I See the end coming for Tivo and cable cards too.. I've had my Romino since 2017 and its been a good device. actually easy to use when guests come. I was using a silicon dust HD cable card tuner before that with windows media center as the DVR and interface. when that no longer supported encrypted channels like HBO that I used to pay for is when I got in to TiVo because there wasn't a new well sorted out option at the time. 

I returned my cablecard in February 2021 when Crapcast raised the broadcast tv fee to near $20/month. the total cost for limited basic was about $45 and that's crazy stupid when I could have a rooftop antenna and get all locals for free after investing about $300 maybe less to put up the antenna system myself so that is what I have plus netflix and PlutoTV. 

When I returned the cablecard to the Xfinity store the first girl didn't what it was and wasn't going to accept it. I had to get a different employee and they knew exactly what it was. 

I plan to stay with this Tivo until we get an NextGen ATSC 3.0 broadcast in my market. Then I will decide what to do if I want to get on that bandwagon. If TiVo has a good product then I might buy it, if not well Silicondust has the HDHomeRun4k scrib out now at $279. Since I had past experience with their product I wouldn't be reluctant to give that a go. their $35 yearly guide and dvr service fee doesn't seem bad. they are also a company that seems to be on the edge of technology development and they seem to support their products well. the HDhomerun prime cablecard tuner I had bought in 2012 and sold on ebay later they still sell new and support. So it seems likely I would move to that.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

mikey1273 said:


> if not well Silicondust has the HDHomeRun4k scrib out now at $279. Since I had past experience with their product I wouldn't be reluctant to give that a go. their $35 yearly guide and dvr service fee doesn't seem bad. they are also a company that seems to be on the edge of technology development and they seem to support their products well. the HDhomerun prime cablecard tuner I had bought in 2012 and sold on ebay later they still sell new and support. So it seems likely I would move to that.


In the end Silicon Dust is a hardware company, and IMHO their HD HomeRun tuners are best tuned with a software company's guide and DVR service: Channels DVR, which costs a bit more per year but again IMHO you get what you pay for and I'm very happy with the results. But I will miss a few things about TiVo when the Roamio Pro I'm running in parallel finally bites the dust, like live TV buffering.


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## mikey1273 (Nov 6, 2017)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> In the end Silicon Dust is a hardware company, and IMHO their HD HomeRun tuners are best tuned with a software company's guide and DVR service: Channels DVR, which costs a bit more per year but again IMHO you get what you pay for and I'm very happy with the results. But I will miss a few things about TiVo when the Roamio Pro I'm running in parallel finally bites the dust, like live TV buffering.


You can also use Plex for a DVR with Silicon Dust tuners. I already have a lifetime plex pass and run a server on my PC to host a collection of movies and old tv shows so that could be a good software option to go with SD tuners.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mikey1273 said:


> ...Silicondust has the HDHomeRun4k scrib out now at $279. Since I had past experience with their product I wouldn't be reluctant to give that a go. their $35 yearly guide and dvr service fee doesn't seem bad.


Have you tried their DVR software? Even if you paid me $35, I would not use that POS. Their hardware is solid, but their software is absolutely horrible. The absolutely free Google Live Channels DVR software is a thousand times better. The paid Channels software that pokemondad is always talking about is excellent. I find Plex pretty complicated to set up and clunky to use, but its integration with the rest of your media library is pretty good.


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## mikey1273 (Nov 6, 2017)

mdavej said:


> Have you tried their DVR software? Even if you paid me $35, I would not use that POS. Their hardware is solid, but their software is absolutely horrible. The absolutely free Google Live Channels DVR software is a thousand times better. The paid Channels software that pokemondad is always talking about is excellent. I find Plex pretty complicated to set up and clunky to use, but its integration with the rest of your media library is pretty good.


Plex was a natural thing for me to move to when support for windows media center ended. I had a collection of movies and shows and music I used a WMC plug in to help manage in those days. Plex was like the next step up at the time. Yes, it is a little clunky to set up for a non techy or IT person. Actually probably easier than what all I did with WMC. It does however work well and organizes your media very nicely, especially with movies and tv series. it's not as good with mp3 music that doesn't have good complete meta data tags. some of my tracks from the Napster days it has no clue what to do with. I'm not sure any software would able to fix that.

I don't have any HDhomerun tuners now to really give the plex dvr a try with. I does feel like I'm like to move to that hardware when NextGenTV comes to the Harrisburg PA TV market. I don't see any value in spending the cash on a new tuner just yet though. The Roamio works fine with ATSC 1.0


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

mikey1273 said:


> I don't have any HDhomerun tuners now to really give the plex dvr a try with.


I don't use Plex, but some MythTV users record content using MythTV and access the content using Plex. I have used MythTV with an HDHomeRun Prime and a CableCARD for several years with Comcast, and it has been working great. One thing I like about my Prime is the free included lifetime supply of guide data from Silicon Dust for live TV. Full guide data can optionally be purchased from Schedules Direct for only $25 per year. I look forward to trying an HDHomeRun Connect 4K when ATSC 3.0 is available in my area.


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