# Ty makes nice with HR20? WTF?



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Yes, THAT Ty-your-own-Shoes. Me.

OK, hold the phone...the same guy who got one of the first ever (non-beta) HR20's some 15 months ago shipped to him "by accident" (I was also one of the first ever to be straight-faced lied to about how "Oh yeah, we'll most definitely send you a HR10 to replace your failing DTivo", a lie so new at the time that the CSR's still actually believed it), and who after really trying very hard to have an open mind and trying diligently to adapt for more than a week, ended up wanting to hurl if off his balcony. That guy.

Was I wrong? Not at all. It really sucked hard. Did I expect it to ever get better? Not really. I was very pessimistic about that after watching DISH DVRs devolve slowly into crap for 3 years as they blindly tried to make them better. In fact the rule has always seemed to be that if something ships as a POS, it is unlikely to improve much via software updates, while if something ships fairly-well hammered out already, it is unlikely to either need improvement or to have issues down the road.

Well, maybe its a sign of the pending apocalypse, but in the last 18 months both sides of that rule have been turned on their heads. The second-most-surprising development was that the software engineers for 6.x would stumble so badly after such a stellar record with Tivo. That little embarrassment proved they were not infallible, hurt them badly, and only hastened folks' exit to the HD DVR and cable. That and my bitter experience with the early HR20 created that classic DTV subscriber rock vs. hard place scenario I've moaned about here on occasion.

But what I was most surprised to find is how much the HR20 has improved since then. It's nothing less than shocking, and you could have literally knocked me over with a feather upon that realization. The last time I saw one it didn't get OTA, or MPEG-4 (there simply wasn't any), and seemed about as intuitive as the dead sea scrolls. I knew both OTA and M4 were coming, but I was horrified with the blatant user-hostility of the platform and aghast at how DTV might actually think this was a decent replacement for the venerable DTivo, or even a good idea in the slightest.

And I made sure everybody here got the benefit of what I had experienced. I still stand by every statement I ever made.

But guess what, things change. The HR10 I finally found as the last-ever Circuit City floor demo purchased to replace that first HR20 crapped out at the 14-month mark, and the only alternative that made any sense was a (gulp!) HR20, which I looked forward to about as much as I do going in for a root canal or a hot-lead enema. So, game on!

So while I still claim my experience was valid 15 months ago, everything I said up until now has become old information, and is now officially outdated and no longer relevant. The new information is that this box has improved markedly, to the point where if the HR10 was MPEG-4 capable, the HR20 would still be a viable contender. And I think that's really saying something. Ty, admitting that the HR20 is in the same league as the HR10, should be considered high praise, indeed. Long story short, (I know...too late) both platforms have their little irksome idiosyncrasies, and there are still things that the HR20 just can't do as well as the HR10, but then it has it's advantages over the HR10's limitations as well.

I've never been a fanboy, I always rooted for the HR20 to be a success, and I always cursed it mightily right here when it originally appeared to be just some hollow wet dream, and I also never dreamed it would ever live up to the promise, but astonishingly, and against all odds, it has done just that. I am still not quite sure if the HR20 changed or if I changed, but I can't imagine ever at all liking something I ever hated so vehemently, so it must be all due to actual improvements on this platform. I can only say that I was pleasantly surprised by what I never expected to find, and as much as I also never expected it after trying "what used to be" the HR20 15 months ago, there now really is life after Tivo, after all.

Don't get me wrong, I'll still be doing the bulk of OTA and SD on my remaining HR10's until both of them are old and grey, but hey, nice job, DTV. You proved all the naysayers, including me, to be wrong about what we expected to be the final chapter of the DTivo era. And I couldn't be happier to be in a position to admit that.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Kind of like an arranged marraige. Even if you're not in love it's good if you can at least get along since you really don't have any choice.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Well, if given permission to extend your analogy, it's a bit like being married to Jessica Alba and being worried that you are going to be forced to leave her for Rosie O'Donnell, and then finding out at the last minute that the new girl is actually Ali Larter instead. 

A true no-can-lose situation.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Congrats on finding happier times with the HR20 Tyrone. I'm glad you're able to testify that the box isn't the demon spawn that many make it out to be.

I hope you've had some time to visit dbstalk.com a fair amount and even if you aren't directly participating in the Cutting Edge program, at least had time to see discussion about what's coming.

The box still isn't perfect, but yes, it's come a long way in the time that I've had one (almost a year now). There's still some glitches in the current cutting edge release (audio sync problems that pop up if you fast forward to the end of buffered content, fixed by changing channels in some cases, and other work arounds too...)

I hope DirecTV finds the last few bugs for the current CE version before that version goes to national release, and then I hope they move on to tightening up things even more. Let them give TiVo some competition, and let both of them give Echostar some competition and vice versa. Get 'em all adding features for us to make use of and give us better products for it. :up: 


(BTW, over the coming weeks I'm adding a Verizon FiOS HD DVR box to the setup in my house. I'm very curious to compare it and see what I think of same. I'm not leaving DirecTV, just wasting a little money on the TV component of a triple play option from Verizon and giving myself an alternative to check out for a while. If it sucks, I'll drop it like a rock, but then again the cost is dirt cheap through the first year or so, so having it on one TV can give me something different to look at and yet another HD DVR to record stuff on just in case I get into a pickle about how many tuners are tied up where  )


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

Good to hear and congrats! If you are open minded and truly not closed minded on a platform/GUI the HR20/21 is NOW a very nice DVR. Again some will always prefer Tivo where others will now prefer the HR20.

Yes, the HR20 has come a long was and the HR10 has gone down, down, down since the 6.x upgrades.

I purchased my HR10 with the 3.x software and was very happy until the upgrades. I started using the HR20 in July when most of the4 bugs were out.

I dreaded it from all the posts about bugs I saw on dbstalk and I did NOT want to give up Tivo nor did the wife. But Since I switched over, I now prefer the HR20.

Again I have had NO bugs really, missed recording or what not. And they are getting better! 

We have some "HR20 Army" uniforms waiting for you...


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

nrc said:


> Kind of like an arranged marraige. Even if you're not in love it's good if you can at least get along since you really don't have any choice.


Why am I not surprised that you somehow managed to impart a negative spin on someone elses positive HR2x post...

Anyway, back on topic...

Ty - thanks for posting this. It's information like this that will provide the objective information necessary to help those users contemplating the switch.

My experience was much the same -

First - anger directed at DirecTV for going their own way.

Second - total dismay when I got my R15, the abysmal disaster of a DVR (at least until relatively recently).

Third - fear and trepidation about leaving my HR10s behind to move to the HR20.

Fourth - bite the bullet and switch to the HR20 (the new HD is too much to pass up)

Fifth - Hey, wait a minute... This thing isn't bad. In fact, it's pretty darn good!

Sixth - Wow... I'd go so far as to say that the HR20s are much more reliable than my 6.x HR10s ever were and, GASP, I actually prefer the features and interface of the HR20!!

So, there you have it... The six steps to HR2x happiness!!


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

badmonkey said:


> Why am I not surprised that you somehow managed to impart a negative spin on someone elses positive HR2x post...


Simply pointing out that anyone who wants to continue to get HD service from DirecTV has no choice other than the HR20/HR21 for DVRs. If you consider that a negative, so be it.

Everyone who is determined to stay with DirecTV needs to accept this and move on.


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

Thanks for the input Ty. Coming from you that's high praise indeed. I too have two HR10s still running and there are some things that I prefer to do on them and not the HR20s. I want to keep both as long as I can. For watching live TV I like the 90 minute buffer in case I get distracted for more than 30 min.


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## KSbugeater (Jan 26, 2006)

Wow. I'm stunned. Has Earl seen this yet?

Ty, I knew you were far too intelligent to maintain your misinformed bias against the HR20. I, too, am keeping my HR10 as long as I can beside my HR20, because there are things each can do well. HR20 = Speed and convenience, HR10 = Thoroughness and DUAL LIVE BUFFERS!


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

KSbugeater said:


> Wow. I'm stunned. Has Earl seen this yet?


Not until now...
And I will say the same thing, I have always said about the units.

I have no issues with anyone that has actually worked and spent time on the HR20 and their comments.

There is no mystery that 18 months ago... the HR20 was not in great shape. It had a number of issues.

Today... the HR2* series... it really is shocking to see the vastly different systems. In the comming weeks, the HR20 will get's it's second significant GUI update.

It is a vastly different system... both from a feature set and from a reliability/usability aspects.

Am I glad that you like the box now... sure, why wouldn't I...
but I am significantly more happy about the fact that you decided to pick up the remote and try the system again for yourself.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> Not until now...
> And I will say the same thing, I have always said about the units.
> 
> I have no issues with anyone that has actually worked and spent time on the HR20 and their comments.
> ...


This is very true, I got my first HR20 back in October of 2006. For the most part it worked and I liked it but it could be very frustrating especially when I went to watch a recording and nothing was there. However I downloaded every CE as they started coming out and eventually these irritations were fixed. Really I haven't had a problem with mine since about March of this year. I also like that they are testing a 30 second skip and a reasonable work around for DLBs. I haven't really been downloading CEs lately as everything has worked fine for so long.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

gio1269 said:


> ...
> 
> Again I have had NO bugs really, missed recording or what not. And they are getting better!
> 
> ...


How can they be getting better if you never had them


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

It still has not passed my basic test. Recording everything I have setup to record without missing a recording for a one month time period without intervention or reboot. It has gotten close but it not there yet. I am running the latest CE so I do not know if the national release is more stable.


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## daperlman (Jan 25, 2002)

Well my experience is somewhat similar. Now that I finally have one that works... it is ok. In many ways better than the HR10, but in more ways worse (software). OTOH I paid a grand for the HR10 back in day. 
What I cannot let go though - is the feeling that these things are manufactured in a GM auto plant  I went through 4 in 2 mos before I had one that worked. I know 3 other people who made the same switch NONE of which have been problem free.The other thing that is discouraging is how incredibily awful DTV customer service has become. This is a real problem for me as I have convinced countless friends and family to make the switch. I must have wasted more than 5K of my of time and money just getting this receiver to work (and fixing the damage to my home they caused).


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

RS4 said:


> How can they be getting better if you never had them


From the earlier reports I have read before getting mine. I was not happy when D* said they would replace my failing HR10 with the HR20. But mine has been flawless. Oh, I am sorry. It locked up for the first time today.

The real only complaint is the MediaShare feature thing is a bit buggy still. Not too bad and it's clearly marketed as a BETA feature. I was told it might be a network thing on my end.

BUT, ZERO missed recordings.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

Ty,

This speaks volumns your character.

It give such credibility to all you say.

- Craig


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

There have been some significant upgrades over the past year: OTA, VOD, music, photos, and now videos. Yes, you might want to mention the 80 new HD channels.

Some upgrades have been almost shocking. When they added Fast Forward Autocorrection everyone was taken aback.

We had thought that was a TiVo patent.

It is but no one thought about the fact that DIRECTV had licensed TiVo's entire patent portfolio.

The current test release (anyone can participate) has another bombshell:

Skip. Real 30 second Skip.

Again, that is another TiVo patent. Wow is it great to have that back. I forgot how much I liked it.

The next big thing is a solid DLB workaround. They fixed a broken feature that makes the setup only 2 extra keystrokes and you can toggle with one button.

If anyone is interested in participating in the beta test program (CE), here is some information:

_Can I help test new beta software updates?
_→ The CE: Rules, FAQs, and Tips on participating ● Notify Me of New Releases ● Cutting Edge Forum

Since June, they have averaged an upgrade to the HR20 every weekend. The CE's are typically announced late on Friday if there is one.

With literally dozens of upgrades, they have come a long way. Look at my posts on DBSTalk from a year ago and you will see I was unrelenting in documenting so many problems.

Even now the HR20 and now the HR21 online manuals list features that they still have not completed. When they redid the manual for the HR21, they made 32 key corrections. They knew that the software did not yet have these feature but kept them in the manual. Before they do anything new, they need to complete the product the new manual promises.

But look at the list of improvements since a year ago.

It is amazing that they still keep working so hard to improve the HR20. It is amazing that they let anyone in the test program who wants in. It was a big gamble but look at how it has paid off.

- Craig


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

30 second skip is not a TiVo patent and DirecTV has not licensed TiVo's entire patent portfolio. They have a support contract with TiVo. TiVo and DIRECTV agree not to assert patent rights against the other which is different than licensing patents. Who knows what will happen when the contract expires in 2010.


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## Scooter (Mar 15, 2000)

What an excellent post, TyroneShoes! :up: I'm glad to see that it's working out for you.

Scooter


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## shanew1289 (May 7, 2004)

Im glad I am not alone thinking that the HR20 is getting as good as tivo. (DLB keeps Tivo on top IMO)

I must say, I deactivated my HR10  and am VERY happy with two HR20-100's (Thank goodness I got OTA units)

I must say I PREFER 30 Second SLIP. I like seeing what I am missing (very quickly) and stopping at 30 secs. I do NOT like a button that drops me in where I hop I want to be. If I click it 6 times and I am in a show, did I accidentally hit it 7 times? Now I need to rewind. On my HR20, did I hit it 7 times, YES cause the HR20 shows how many SLIPS I clicked (Yea Yea,, how does a guy not know how many times he hit it. I do it so fast, I lose count sometimes. Also the RF remote occasiionally misses a command)

With SLIP I can see the show start (short commercial break) and still hit play those stopping my 6 SLIPS and stopping where I SEE I need to.

Just my $0.02. So is SKIP an OPTION? I hope 

O and one other thing. I record ALL mythbusters. When it has 16 of them from a marathon, Its nice to watch the 2 I want to see again and then delete the WHOLE group. That is very nice.

Still running my SD HDVR2 DirecTivos on my SD tvs. I do miss some things. 

But what do you do for HD?


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

Hmm, Ty, maybe your expectations for the HR20 were too low. I got mine in August and used it 29 days before I had to put my HR10 back in service. As I have said before, the HR20 works fine but I agree with all those that contributed to the HR20 Wish List, it still has a way to go. Lets dont settle for mediocrity even with the impending apocalypse.


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## BigBearf (Aug 18, 2005)

Ty et al
I too have joined the HR20 crowd. The HR20 has some features that I like better but so far a couple of things bug me with the HR20.

First, when I use the FF button that I use to watch sports most of the time, the banner stays on screen and I can't see the info such as the score at the bottom. I have found the 2 second banner selection but that did not help. Any thoughts?

Secondly, when viewing in FF the video does not flow like it does with the HR10, more like a slide show effect. Not as worrisome as the banner issue but nonetheless.

Lastly, I miss the slow motion feature of the HR10 that I use on close plays. Any thoughts?

I have been using three HR20s in the same room via RF but wonder if a software upgrade is in the works to enable more remote addresses like the HR10.

Overall pleased but not estatic

BigBearf


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

BigBearf said:


> First, when I use the FF button that I use to watch sports most of the time, the banner stays on screen and I can't see the info such as the score at the bottom. I have found the 2 second banner selection but that did not help. Any thoughts?


Hit "Exit" on the remote. That will clear the banner.


> Lastly, I miss the slow motion feature of the HR10 that I use on close plays. Any thoughts?


Hold play for about 4-5 seconds. It really sucks that you have to hold for a while and it does not always work.


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

BigBear, if you hit exit too late it sends you back somewhere you dont want to be; I use the play button instead of the exit. 

On slowmotion, I hit the pause and then hit the FF as fast as I can.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

Wow. Didn't know that the HR20 doesn't have slo-mo. One more reason to stick with the 250 till I'm forced to go back to cable.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

If you read carefully, it does indeed have slo-mo, just not a very well-implemented version of it (hope they can improve that also).



coachO said:


> Hmm, Ty, maybe your expectations for the HR20 were too low...


Well you see that's the thing. I tried not to have any expectations for it whatsoever. Impossible, of course, after owning about 9 different PVRs at the time and not being impressed at all by any other than Tivo and Replay. So if it failed to meet my even slightly-biased low expectations, that could explain why I was unhappy with it -- It was the worst-by-far thing I'd ever seen and it was designated to be my future, like an arranged marriage, as nrc so cleverly characterized it. That was a completely untenable situation.

Also, DTV had arrogantly foisted this POS on us, and I was going to make sure they were held accountable, at least here (now that they have made good, I am trying to make sure everyone knows that as well). I knew at the time that the R15 was about the level of hammered dog $#!+,and I'd seen first-hand what DISH had "dished" up, but I actually and quite unexpectedly got the first HR20 the local Ironwood installers had ever seen, so other than being slightly skeptical yet trying to be open-minded, I didn't even really have the opportunity to build that much of a negative expectation before actually test-driving the thing. As things turned out, it wasn't pretty at first. But things have gotten remarkably and quite unexpectedly better.



KSbugeater said:


> ...misinformed bias...


KS, thanks for the compliment that was also in there, but you hit it right on the head. From the point where the HR20 began to significantly improve until the point where I stopped posting about how bad it "is" (which unfortunately only goes back a few weeks), info I posted was indeed more and more simply based on nothing but my misinformed bias. I freely admit that, and that is why I wanted to come clean about the truth I know now. That old information is now outdated, and is the only slightly-sour note for me about this happy chain of events. I always pride myself in being accurate and truthful and unbiased here, and that didn't really help the issue. But it's just that much more vodka under the bridge, and I'm over it, and I hope everyone else can get there too.

So, we move on. Thanks to all that contributed.

Ty


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

KSbugeater said:


> Wow. I'm stunned. Has Earl seen this yet?
> 
> Ty, I knew you were far too intelligent to maintain your misinformed bias against the HR20. I, too, am keeping my HR10 as long as I can beside my HR20, because there are things each can do well. HR20 = Speed and convenience, HR10 = Thoroughness and DUAL LIVE BUFFERS!


Key words......Thoroughness

I'll take that over speed any day. DLB is great too. When I got my HR20, I got a downgraded unit. Sorry. Bad machine. DTV should have stayed with TiVo. It's the VOD that they were interested in and they spent most of their time there perfecting the VOD and less time on the VERY BASIC DVR functions.

I'm going to stick my neck out on this one with good reasons. I do not see DTV EVER improving the functionality of what is already installed in the DVR such as the category sort, searches, recording histories to name a few. All they will do is to continue to do what they already do. If fixing is required on any of these, the way they currently do will not change.

Now, if something come along for the VOD side of the recorder, it will changed where the function and style of it will change. That's what DTV is interested in. :down::down::down::down::down:


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## Scooter (Mar 15, 2000)

Scott D said:


> <snip>
> 
> I'll take that over speed any day.


Take what, a DVR that records a few DIRECTV HD channels and OTA or did you jump ship altogether and go cable? The problem is, if we want to record HD programming on DIRECTV, we really don't have much of a choice now, do we? I love TiVo also (notice my sig) but guess what? The HR10 is DEAD!  for the most part
I'm not happy about it either, but it's a fact. Get used to it.

Scooter


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Scott D said:


> I do not see DTV EVER improving the functionality of what is already installed in the DVR such as the category sort, searches, recording histories to name a few. All they will do is to continue to do what they already do. If fixing is required on any of these, the way they currently do will not change.


-) What are you looking for in improvements of recording histories?

-) Searches are going to get BOOLEAN (AND, OR, NOT) and limit by categories... in the next national release. Current the search is EXACT by what you type. The Boolean AND will be more like Has Term #1 and Term #2, vs an exact match.

-) What kind of category sorts are you looking for? You can sort the guide by a category, and you can list your recordings by category (95% sure... I'd have to go double check for certain)

And I will predict (in the traditional carney style), that Searches are going to get another kick in the pants in Q1 of 2008


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> -) What are you looking for in improvements of recording histories?
> 
> -) Searches are going to get BOOLEAN (AND, OR, NOT) and limit by categories... in the next national release. Current the search is EXACT by what you type. The Boolean AND will be more like Has Term #1 and Term #2, vs an exact match.
> 
> ...


To answer your question, see PM.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

Scooter said:


> Take what, a DVR that records a few DIRECTV HD channels and OTA or did you jump ship altogether and go cable? The problem is, if we want to record HD programming on DIRECTV, we really don't have much of a choice now, do we? I love TiVo also (notice my sig) but guess what? The HR10 is DEAD!  for the most part
> I'm not happy about it either, but it's a fact. Get used to it.
> 
> Scooter


Boy, I'm trying but it's hard to do!


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## BigBearf (Aug 18, 2005)

Thanks to all for the info on the HR20
BigBearf


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

BigBearf said:


> ...First, when I use the FF button that I use to watch sports most of the time, the banner stays on screen and I can't see the info such as the score at the bottom. I have found the 2 second banner selection but that did not help. Any thoughts?


Hit Exit.


> ...Secondly, when viewing in FF the video does not flow like it does with the HR10, more like a slide show effect. Not as worrisome as the banner issue but nonetheless.


The next National Release has Skip working.


> Lastly, I miss the slow motion feature of the HR10 that I use on close plays. Any thoughts?


About a dozen features are Press and Holds. Slow is Press & Hold PLAY. I hate the press and holds but at least you have the feature. Your manual says to press and hold 3 seconds. Liars. It's 4-7 seconds.


> I have been using three HR20s in the same room via RF but wonder if a software upgrade is in the works to enable more remote addresses like the HR10.


From the HR20 FAQ:
● Remote Control Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) 

You can have 2 IR HR20/21's in the same room on one remote.

Have you checked out the HD DVR FAQ?

In particular:
● 144 Undocumented HD DVR PLUS Tips & Tricks
● TiVo Users Survival Guide

- Craig


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

milominderbinder said:


> About a dozen features are Press and Holds. Slow is Press & Hold PLAY. I hate the press and holds but at least you have the feature. Your manual says to press and hold 3 seconds. Liars. It's 4-7 seconds.


That "press and hold" deal is really the only beef I have with the HR20. I often need to skip through a program when I am looking for something, and the TiVo "skip-to-tick" feature works great -- sadly, while the same function is in the HR20, the implementation is poor. I can take a maddening amount of "pressing and holding" to skip ahead, and even then is sometimes doesn't work. I can skip five or six "ticks" as fast as I can press the button on TiVo, but the same thing might take me a full minute on the HR20. I hope they are working on that, though I don't see a lot of complaints about it, so maybe I'm the only one who uses it a lot ...


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## cbessant (Jun 9, 2004)

Everything I read about the HR20 says it is "improving". I'm really not ready to throw out the H10-250 for a product that DTV is forcing on customers with continual improvements. KInd of like GM selling small cars in the earlly 1980s that were junk compared to their Japanse counterparts. Why settle for sub-par as they develop a better mousetrap (H20) on the customers dime and time when the H10 is still better. 

When I purchased my H10-250 18 months ago, I subscribed to a the HD package. Now, that HD package is skrinking yet I pay the same for HD. That is a sign (one of many) of a skanky company that wants to squeeze customers into submission, and borg them with an H20/21. I tried the H20 18 months ago and it was bad. TiVo is eloquent and easy to use, and the peanut remote is slick. 

Granted, I haven't used an H20 for 18 months. My wife likes TiVo, 'nuf said for marital harmony. I just don't like corporate blackmail and hypocrocy: I re-up'ed for a two-year commitment, and DTV broke it by changing the line-up without telling customers or at least keeping the the original channels. 

Put simply: it DTV stinks.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

cbessant said:


> Everything I read about the HR20 says it is "improving". I'm really not ready to throw out the H10-250 for a product that DTV is forcing on customers with continual improvements. KInd of like GM selling small cars in the earlly 1980s that were junk compared to their Japanse counterparts. Why settle for sub-par as they develop a better mousetrap (H20) on the customers dime and time when the H10 is still better.
> 
> When I purchased my H10-250 18 months ago, I subscribed to a the HD package. Now, that HD package is skrinking yet I pay the same for HD. That is a sign (one of many) of a skanky company that wants to squeeze customers into submission, and borg them with an H20/21. I tried the H20 18 months ago and it was bad. TiVo is eloquent and easy to use, and the peanut remote is slick.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should take a minute to reread the first post in this thread... I think you'll find that the HR2x has changed quite a bit since 18 months ago.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

cbessant said:


> When I purchased my H10-250 18 months ago, I subscribed to a the HD package. Now, that HD package is skrinking yet I pay the same for HD. That is a sign (one of many) of a skanky company that wants to squeeze customers into submission, and borg them with an H20/21.


It was well known 18 months ago that the HR10 was finished and wouldn't be able to get MPEG4. As a matter of fact, 18 months ago the HR10 was no longer even produced and just 3 short months away from the HR20 hitting the market. Heck, it was well known 3 years ago about MPEG4 and that the HR10 wouldn't get those channels. I personally never bought an HR10 just for that fact and waited for the next generation to hit. I wasn't going to waste $600-800 for something that would not be able to get the new HD (and soon any HD from sat).

But to each his own.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

cbessant said:


> Everything I read about the HR20 says it is "improving". I'm really not ready to throw out the H10-250 for a product that DTV is forcing on customers with continual improvements. KInd of like GM selling small cars in the earlly 1980s that were junk compared to their Japanse counterparts. Why settle for sub-par as they develop a better mousetrap (H20) on the customers dime and time when the H10 is still better.


Then don't plan on getting an HR2* box for at least another 2 years...

As they have a slate of things they plan to add to the box for a long time to come.... so it is going to be continuously "improving" over the next 12-24 months.

Each person has to make their own decision based on their own criteria on to which platform is better for them, and their usage.


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## cbessant (Jun 9, 2004)

shibby191 said:


> It was well known 18 months ago that the HR10 was finished and wouldn't be able to get MPEG4. As a matter of fact, 18 months ago the HR10 was no longer even produced and just 3 short months away from the HR20 hitting the market.


When I did the upgrade to HD, the only thing DTV told me was I wouldn't be able to receive OTA local HD as they are MPEG4. They *never* said that addional HD channels DTV planned to release would be MPEG4, and they never said the HD package would become obsolete in less than 18 months. I asked. And granted I didn't research on places with like this. I believed the service provider. I was busy with other things in my life to research the encoding DTV planned for future HD transmissions. Silly me.

When I ordered the HR10-250, the day of installation I was called by the installer to say they had "run out of DVRs" and I would be rescheduled in 3 weeks. DTV went ahead and started billing for HD service and my extra receiver before it was installed. When they did re-schedule and arrived to install, they showed up with an HR20. I did give the HR20 a go, and when I tried to send it back, I was told the HR10-250 was not available, even though I was told I would get an HR10. I was very specific when I placed the order with DTV and was assured that is what I would get. Then, the delay, they added the new services before I could use them and they changed the equipment without notifying me, let alone on the installation day. I was able to get an H10-250 from WeakKnees at a reasonable price, and DTV did provide a cash rebate to cover the addtional cost. I will give them credit for that, yet it didn't come easy (yes, a back-handed compliment).

So now I have (had) this HD package with channels 70-79 since 9-2006, and it looks like two have been converted to MPEG4 (HDNM and UHD) in 12-2007 without notifying customers or doing dual transmission, which would have been the right thing to do. And, I pay $10/month for fewer channels. When I subscribed, I wasn't told we'll change the service willy/nilly as we see fit. In the teleco or cell phone world, when you subscribe to a specific service, you have it until you make a change. In the DBS world, anarchy rules by the service provider.

So yeah, I have my issues with DTV, and they way they handle customer service. Unfortunately, we are moving to an area that is only serviced by satellite, and DISH isn't exactly a _delighter._ So, like the Soup Nazi would say, "No TiVo for you!"

My bottom line with DTV: Murdoch forced the NDS unit on DTV DVR users, they blew-off the TiVo users, and have a system where you are forced to use DTV's DVR. Murdoch did this to line his pocket with green regardless of what complaints users provided; TiVo users had a choice to bend-over or leave. And in cases where there is only satellite service, they are forced to do what DTV says if they wanted to keep the service. I'd rather not beta test and work out the bugs for several years for DTV and the HR20. 18-24 months for improvements when there is DVR (TiVo) that works well.

Making TiVo an option at TiVo subscription rates for cable is a reasonable choice DTV (and DISH) subscribers *should* be able to make if they want to. I find this "Soup Nazi" approach to equipment to be skanky and greedy for DTV.

I do appreciate all the feedback and commentary offered in this community. Thank you for your dedication to making this a great communtiy.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Understood. I guess since I do tons of research before making a purchase I just assume others do so. My bad. I never trust any salesmen in any industry so I make sure I know what I'm getting into before I lay down hundreds/thousands. I'm currently looking for a new universal remote to replace my MX-700 and I'll probably do research for a couple weeks. Anyway...



cbessant said:


> So now I have (had) this HD package with channels 70-79 since 9-2006, and it looks like two have been converted to MPEG4 (HDNM and UHD) in 12-2007 without notifying customers or doing dual transmission, which would have been the right thing to do.


FYI they were not converted to MPEG4. They were moved to the new HD Extra package which costs $5 and also includes other "HD only" stations like Smithsonian and MHD (those are both MPEG4 though). Sorry if you didn't get contacted but I've gotten at least 2 emails and a flyer in the mail detailing the new HD packages. Check on their web site and you'll see all the details.


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## cbessant (Jun 9, 2004)

shibby191 said:


> FYI they were not converted to MPEG4. They were moved to the new HD Extra package which costs $5 and also includes other "HD only" stations like Smithsonian and MHD (those are both MPEG4 though). Sorry if you didn't get contacted but I've gotten at least 2 emails and a flyer in the mail detailing the new HD packages. Check on their web site and you'll see all the details.


Thank you for the advice on the HD Extra package, I'll look into it. I don't watch a lot of TV. When I do, and if I can get it on HD, I'll go for the HD feed.

I suppose you've figured out that I am pro-competition and pissed off at DTV for stifling same as the Soviets crushed freedoms. DTV offered a great product with TiVo, and then took it away (well, not completely yet). TiVo is offered for use on all cable systems, yet DISH and DTV are closed systems that do not allow things like TiVo (only the TiVo offered by DTV or at least they did).

DTV should stick to their core fundamentals, offering content via satellite, and then out-source DVRs/receivers to 3rd parties like cell phone companies do. DTV selected TiVo as it is best of breed DVR, yet had oodles of sat receivers, and TiVo was an excellent selection. Then, some bean counter must have decided they can make one themselves (use the one offered by NDS that Murdoch owned - there is a competitive bid process), asked an engineering team if they could do this, and POOF, we get the in-house DTV DVR POS (new and improved for 2007/2008 - I'll take your word for it).

The HR20 is a reinvented wheel to TiVo. The customer was forced to endure several years of crap from a poorly designed ergonomic device when a really good device (TiVo) was already available. DTV didn't even give customers an option, DTV just whacked it. Why not allow TiVo with standard TiVo subscription pricing as for cable and let the customer decide what they want to use?

If this were the NFL, there would be more flags thrown that one would lose track of the penalties committed by DTV.

Thanks for the pointer to the HD Extra pack. DTV never mentioned it to me nor that the HR20 had been re-worked to be a better product nor that a change was on the way and I should swap out my TiVo if I wanted to continue to get HD. The problem is the time and effort it takes to tryout a new device. Cell phones and other gadgets are easy, DVRs take time. No doubt many people like the HR20. The version I saw made me gag.

Again, thanks for the info!


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

cbessant said:


> Everything I read about the HR20 says it is "improving"...Put simply: it DTV stinks.


Chuck,

How many months are left on your contract?

- Craig


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

cbessant said:


> Everything I read about the HR20 says it is "improving". I'm really not ready to throw out the H10-250 for a product that DTV is forcing on customers with continual improvements....I tried the H20 18 months ago and it was bad....Granted, I haven't used an H20 for 18 months....
> 
> Put simply: it DTV stinks.


Well then, Chuck, you should probably not consider getting the HR20 until the HR10 no longer does the job for you. But at that point, all is not lost. And this is advice for everyone. The HR10 is mature and user-friendly. It's a little pokey and doesn't get MPEG4 channels, but it's a very reliable platform, for the most part (a little less reliable than it was after 6.x, mind you), but still a venerable old dog that does its job, and does it well.

I understand your sentiment as well as anyone can. But at some point the inevitable will happen, and the negatives of your HR10 will be outweighed by other options, especially if it just breaks (that was my turning point). It's inescapable, sadly enough. Hang on as long as you wish, and that should probably serve you well.

The HR20 may or may not be ready for prime time. But it is indeed getting better, and has improved greatly. This then means two things 1) don't simply count it out, you may like it more than you think, and 2) wait as long as you can, so that you get the most-mature platform and endure the least beta-testing. Of course this decision is aso modulated by the upgrade offer. If you can get it done for free (or if your HR10 just happens to "stop working" whether an act of God or an act of "Chuck" and they upgrade you for free) maybe it's time to jump. If they want $299, maybe it's time to wait.

But whatever you do, don't base a decision on spite, your hate for a particular company policy, blind loyalty to Tivo, or an uninformed bias against the HR20. Those are all factors, but weigh them carefully. The intent of this thread was to help folks do that. I'd wager the biggest factors vendor vs. vendor are how good a deal you get, how good a channel lineup you get, and how good a DVR you get. Ironically, DTV and the HR20 (the company and DVR you love to hate) now have a stranglehold on that bottom-line answer. IOW, even more ironically, even if it puts a bad taste in your mouth, it might still be exactly what's right for you.

This thread has also been about setting the record straight. One thing that hasn't been mentioned until now (until by you) is that even if DTV had a bold and wonderful HD plan, even if they were the ones actually responsible for the chicken-and-egg breakthrough of vendors launching these HD channels, even if they tried to deal with Tivo to bring a MPEG4 platform to the table (there is no evidence that they did), and even if the platform they have now is competent, in many ways, as you so eloquently put it, "it DTV stinks".

IOW, just because some of us have discovered that the HR20 of today is much improved from the HR20 of 15 months ago, DTV still screwed the pooch, and we should not let them forget it. Replacing a terrific, popular, and much-beloved platform with one that basically sucked out loud, was not, at least IMHO, a sound business decision, regardless how well that might turn out to work well for them. That they were able to eventually improve the platform and satisfy their customers who lost Tivo is not proof that it was a sound decision, just that they gambled, were foolhardy but lucky, and won. Legions of customers expressing exactly the sentiments you have posted here are proof that DTV's plan was flawed and was executed ham-handedly.

This is not a company without flaws. Customer service is spotty. CSRs are untrained at best. The left hand never even ever met the right hand. They compromise quality for bandwidth. They replace beloved STBs with $#!+ and hope something grows. But comparitively speaking, DISH and cable are probably even a lot worse. If you want TV, you might have to make a deal with the devil, and for many of us this is the devil we know.

But they have an advantage, which is a solid (unmatched) HD plan, a solid DVR (finally), and pretty good incentives to get you to stick around. I see the flaws, and I still end up sending them a check every month, but that's my decision. I'm at peace with that even if I'm not happy with the dolts running the show. Don't think about rewarding a company that basically can't find its dick in the dark by continuing to be a customer, think about what's best for you. If it still turns out to be DTV, then so be it.


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## cbessant (Jun 9, 2004)

milominderbinder said:


> Chuck,
> 
> How many months are left on your contract?
> 
> - Craig


I've got 9 month sleft on my contract.


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## cbessant (Jun 9, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> I understand your sentiment as well as anyone can. But at some point the inevitable will happen, and the negatives of your HR10 will be outweighed by other options, especially if it just breaks (that was my turning point). It's inescapable, sadly enough. Hang on as long as you wish, and that should probably serve you well.
> 
> ......
> 
> But they have an advantage, which is a solid (unmatched) HD plan, a solid DVR (finally), and pretty good incentives to get you to stick around. I see the flaws, and I still end up sending them a check every month, but that's my decision. I'm at peace with that even if I'm not happy with the dolts running the show. Don't think about rewarding a company that basically can't find its dick in the dark by continuing to be a customer, think about what's best for you. If it still turns out to be DTV, then so be it.


I do approach the FrankenDTV windmill with pitch forks and torches. I also accept technology change fairly well, just this time I reacted like a shark in bloody water as TiVo is an eloquent solution. If anyone has a pointer to a URL or entry here that discusses DTV's reasoning for ditching TiVo in-favor of NDS (i.e. HR20), I'd appreciate it; I fully understand Murdoch's motives as pure greed v. doing what is in the best interests of the customer - Yugos for everyone!!!!). I suppose stupidity and greed have no bounds.

Capitation when it isn't necessary really frustrates me as all can see. I do see the writing on the wall for DTV/TiVo yet a holdout for a stay of execution.

I "vote with my dollars" when I can, only this time I have no alternatives unless I want just OTA programming. The area we are moving to does not have a cable option today, and probably won't for several years - rural area on acreage. Even DSL won't be deployed for another 5 months if I can believe Qwest (right). I do have a high-speed Internet wireless option (terrestrial) which I'll use, but I prefer a hard-line like cable or DSL to reduce latency for VoIP. FIOS would be interesting but this is not Verizon territory.

But I digress. I may see if I can get a HR20 to replace my SD TiVo to it out. I just know how easy it is to navigate TiVo and the TiVo peanut remote is a well thought-out and ergonomic remote that minimizes the number of buttons - sometimes less is better.

Thank you to all for your insights and well thought-out conclusions. I still hold-out hope for the stay of execution. Worse case, I switch to an HR20 or cable will come to our area (this would be a local cable provider that is doing fiber to the house, not just the cable post, and not a Comcast or Cox) so I have choices, and better HSIA.

We'll see. If I do get an HR20 and I do like it, I promise to write about my crow dinner. When I'm wrong, I'll admit it.

Again, thanks for all the information. (Maybe a nice Cabernet goes well with crow ala orange - I ain't eatin' it without some help.)


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

cbessant said:


> If anyone has a pointer to a URL or entry here that discusses DTV's reasoning for ditching TiVo in-favor of NDS (i.e. HR20), I'd appreciate it; I fully understand Murdoch's motives as pure greed v. doing what is in the best interests of the customer - Yugos for everyone!!!!). I suppose stupidity and greed have no bounds.


HR20 is not NDS based. NDS has nothing to do with DirecTV DVRs other then the R15.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

shibby191 said:


> HR20 is not NDS based. NDS has nothing to do with DirecTV DVRs other then the R15.


With the exception of the Access Card Security pieces... that is correct.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

cbessant said:


> I've got 9 month sleft on my contract.


At $12.50 a month, that is $100.

Try one of your other options. Do it today.

Life is too short to make yourself miserable over a hundred bucks.

- Craig


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

shibby191 said:


> HR20 is not NDS based. NDS has nothing to do with DirecTV DVRs other then the R15.


thank god, lol!

the r15 is really a lousy dvr imo, and we should all be greatful that they didnt have a hand in the hr2x.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

rickmeoff said:


> the r15 is really a lousy dvr imo, and we should all be greatful that they didnt have a hand in the hr2x.


but it did have an influence on the HR20. Things like PPV that expire and such come from the NDS influence.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

rminsk said:


> but it did have an influence on the HR20. Things like PPV that expire and such come from the NDS influence.


very true. it seems that -much- of the hr20 is r15 inspired, and the bottom line is that it IS a dtv unit.

ashame that the amount of detail paid to the r15 is so sorely lacking after all this time. fortunate for us that they did not follow suit on the hr20.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

rminsk said:


> but it did have an influence on the HR20. Things like PPV that expire and such come from the NDS influence.


PPV's don't expire.

Only the option to pay for them do.
Once you pay for the PPV, it remains on your DVR and you can continue to watch it.


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## dp2008 (Dec 30, 2007)

TyroneShoes said:


> Well, if given permission to extend your analogy, it's a bit like being married to Jessica Alba and being worried that you are going to be forced to leave her for Rosie O'Donnell, and then finding out at the last minute that the new girl is actually Ali Larter instead.


:%s/Ali Larter/Hayden Panettiere/


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