# I can already tell that TWC is going to ****...



## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

(I know that there are a few threads on this already - what separates this thread from the others is I'm targetting Time-Warner cable as a significant problem for the success of the Tivo Series 3.)

Okay - I'm a high-definition DirecTV/NDS customer (with a Sony KD-34XBR960 and a Hughes HR10-250 DVR) who lives in an Adelphia neighborhood. Most likely TWC is going to take over Waterville, ME as TWC has a much larger presence in Maine and Comcast has an insignificant presence here.

(I was happy to hear that DirecTV/NDS might be downloading version 6.3 software to the HR10-250 as it could stand to be faster and folders would be nice - but overall I'm happy with the unit - however, DirecTV/NDS has really run behind everyone else on their HD offerings. I'm also not too keen on the HD-Lite offered by the dbs companies and want to view true HD.)

(I'm also not too thrilled about the new updoming DirecTV/NDS Ka-band/MPEG-4 capable DVR coming out in the Fall as I know it is based on the R15 technology which is still somewhat buggy and is less functional featurewise than the HR10-250 which I am already used to. My faith isn't high that I'll ever be satisfied with any R15-derived device. I'm also not loyal to DirecTV/NDS as I'm not a sports fan. I am however a loyal TIVO fan - my TIVOs have run great for many years now without any problems.)

So, I was thrilled to learn that the TIVO series 3 will be coming out soon. I really want to buy one of these boxes and I don't really care how high the price is set. What I do care about though is the switched digital video (SDV) practice that cable companies are starting to test. This will enable them to gain a while lot of new bandwidth and thus in that respect is good for the cable company, but the channels that are put on SDV bandwidth will not be available to the cablecards which need to be used with the TIVO series 3. I have talked with people in the advanced technical support group at TWC and they have informed me that TWC is currently testing SDV technology in select markets and currently the only channels which they have put on SDV bandwidth are the west coast feed. That would be great if they just limited SDV to west coast feeds because as a DVR user, I don't care if I receive west coast feeds or not. The bigger problem is that TWC has told me that they plan on putting many more mainstream cable channels and perhaps even broadcast networks on SDV bandwidth in the near future as this is how they intend to offer an all-digital programming slate for the near term. This will make the TIVO series 3 unusable with TWC. I know that I can still use it to record over-the-air, but I don't really care about that. I'm not an over-the-air person and most likely will never return to OTA again.

So, is there any way to put added pressure on TWC to ensure that they play fairly with TIVO?

As excited as I am about the TIVO series 3, I will not buy one, if TWC is only going to go ahead and make it useless on me before I can really get to use it. I will also not use a cable provided DVR as most of them aren't any better than the R15 from what I hear. DISH Network is an option, but I tried that once and I was mad every time Charlie Ergen would pull a channel as part of a price negotiation battle.

This leaves DirecTV/NDS and their buggy prorietary DVRs as my only option. So, I guess unless anything changes, my best bet is to get one of them and keep my HR10-250 at the same time. Then set up my series links to record in high-definition from the DirecTV/NDS HD DVR and in case they miss, set up the same season passes to record in standard-definition in the event that the former DVR messes up and doesn't record something.

I would really far prefer a TIVO series 3 and TWC playing fair.

(I may just sell my house and move to another place in the country with better entertainment options.)


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

This isn't about TWC playing fair at all. This is about cablecos exploring new technologies and the inability of the S3 (as far as we know) to handle that.

No cable company is going to halt a migration to a newer technology that gives them gobs of bandwidth and an ability to offer enhanced services just because it breaks some third-party DVR.

SDV and IPTV are rocketing here. Brace yourself. The days of broadcast technology (where all channels come into the house all the time) are nearly over.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I generally agree CHEER, but they are under a mandate from congress to work towards allowing john Q public to buy a box that works with their service. 

Cablecard is the solution big cable agreed too along with the FCC and the CEA and now it seems they are coming out with new technologies that circumvent that agreement. 

IF they had a viable 2-way spec that everyone aggreed too and SDV could be handled by the 2-way spec then so be it- shame on tivo for building a product that is only first generation one-way. But as it stands now it appears they are even stonewalling the 2 way spec which at this poitn isn't even clear can currently handly SDV.

So let the markets decide- but play by the rules.


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## PRMan (Jul 26, 2000)

I wonder how the FCC feels about the providers making CableCard fail at every turn in any way possible. It didn't come up as part of the Adelphia conditions, so I would venture to say "not at all", meaning a CableCard TiVo will be just about useless.


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> I generally agree CHEER, but they are under a mandate from congress to work towards allowing john Q public to buy a box that works with their service.
> 
> Cablecard is the solution big cable agreed too along with the FCC and the CEA and now it seems they are coming out with new technologies that circumvent that agreement.
> 
> ...


How can you say "shame on tivo" you want them to handle specs that arent set why not just make a device to handle any future upgrade... maybe holographic sourcese or something? come on you build to what is a standard and that is it


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Exactly. And by that token, you can't ask the cablecos to stop upgrades and innovations while the FCC tries to figure out how to make it all work.

This is just one of those things that happens as technology marches on.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

aztivo said:


> ...come on you build to what is a standard and that is it


And you get left in the dust by those that plan ahead. Just one more reason why I think Tivo will be history in a few more years. But the Tivo zealots will always find someone else to blame.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> IF they had a viable 2-way spec


CableLabs has a spec and an implementation plan and a proposed set of regulations:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518185072


MichaelK said:


> that everyone aggreed too


Ahh yes, well there's the rub. The CEA doesn't agree with cable's specs and proposals and _how_ things are handled.

So ... cable should be prevented from using SDV or any other new technology until they've got something the CEA agrees to?

Well at that point, why involve cable in the specs at all? Just have the CEA write the specs and force cable to implement them ...

It takes both parties (cable and the CEA) to get things done ... or not.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> I generally agree CHEER, but they are under a mandate from congress to work towards allowing john Q public to buy a box that works with their service.
> 
> Cablecard is the solution big cable agreed too along with the FCC and the CEA and now it seems they are coming out with new technologies that circumvent that agreement.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I've said the same thing in similar threads. The cable companies, including TW, are the reason we don't have a CC 2.0 standard already approved (that would make the SDV issue moot).

They've been dragging their feet, so if the FCC actually starts to look out for consumers and says "you can't do that", they have no one to blame but themselves.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

PRMan said:


> I wonder how the FCC feels about the providers making CableCard fail at every turn in any way possible. It didn't come up as part of the Adelphia conditions, so I would venture to say "not at all", meaning a CableCard TiVo will be just about useless.


Sadly, this is probably closer to the truth than we would like to believe.

It's going to take a serious lawsuit over this before anyone takes action.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

There really should be a class action lawsuit at some point anyway initiated by all of us who invested money on high-definition sets with cablecard ports buit in.


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## HDTivoUser (May 2, 2005)

What does *T*he *W*eather* C*hannel have to do with any of this?

j/k


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Nothing *T*ime *W*arner *C*able - but that doesn't take away from the fact that there really should be a class action lawsuit at some point anyway initiated by all of us who invested money on high-definition sets with cablecard ports buit in.


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## HDTivoUser (May 2, 2005)

BillyT2002 said:


> Nothing *T*ime *W*arner *C*able -


I know....you obviously missed my "j/k" remark at the end. j/k = just kidding


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

why can't all the cable cos just adapt tivos and charge more to all of use for their use? 

seems soooo simple...you would literally have no choice but to pay the $$$ ...tivo is happy...cable co is happy..and except for $$$, we would be happy


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> The cable companies, including TW, are the reason we don't have a CC 2.0 standard already approved (that would make the SDV issue moot).
> 
> They've been dragging their feet, so if the FCC actually starts to look out for consumers and says "you can't do that", they have no one to blame but themselves.


Again, cable has had their two-way solution ready for quite some time:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518185072

The CE companies don't like it and want a different solution:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518185072

How _exactly_ is cable supposed to move forward when electronics companies don't agree with their solution?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

dt_dc said:


> How _exactly_ is cable supposed to move forward when electronics companies don't agree with their solution?


Provide a more consumer friendly solution? I don't see cable's "we must have total control over the interface" as consumer friendly or reasonable.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I highly recommend anyone who cares about this issue to send an e-mail to [email protected] and blind carbon copy [email protected] on it.

Here is the e-mail that I sent: (I'm still waiting to hear back, but will post my response if I get one).

*Cablecard and SDV...*
Bill Tello
To: '[email protected]'
Bcc: '[email protected]'
___________________________________________________________

Hello:

My name is William Tello, I'm a 43 year-old software developer and I live with my wife Ellen in Waterville, Maine.

I am currently a DirecTV/NDS customer and I've owned a DirecTIVO and a standalone TIVO (with real TIVO software in them) for a long time now. I cannot rave enough about how much my wife and I love TIVO DVR(s). We no longer watch "live" television at all and have many "first run only" season passes set up to view our favorite programming.

We just purchased a Sony KD-34XBR960 widescreen high-definition television last year and we have a Hughes HR10-250 high-definition DirecTIVO receiver to run it.

The problem with DirecTV is now that Rupert Murdoch/NDS has taken over, they are moving away from DVR(s) with TIVO software built-in, in favor of their own prorietary DVR(s). Their high-definition line-up is very limited for $10.00 per month and their high-definition channels are broadcast in HD-LITE which is 1280x768p and not true high-definition which is 1920x1080i. They are also launching new satellites with Ka-Band/MPEG-4 capabilities which will not be compatible with the Hughes HR10-250 DirecTIVO DVR which I currently have. Coming this Fall, they are going to offer in my area, high-definition locals on a new DirecTV proprietary high-definition DVR (which if it based on their R15 model I hear is as buggy as many cable television provided DVR(s)). I'm not too excited about that.

Also, my area in Maine is an Adelphia territory and I've heard soon to become a Time-Warner area. At first I was excited about that; especially because I know that the TIVO Series 3 (which can record from two cablecards at once) is soon to be released and I though it would be great to use a TIVO S3 with Time-Warner cable. I thought that I would probably run one TIVO S3 with two cablecards and one TWC DVR for vide-on-demand and all of that within my A/V system.

Since then I have learned that Time-Warner is testing switched digital video in a few select markets and has plans to roll SDV out by the end of the year and then convert most (if not all) digital programming to use SDV in 2007. I have also learned that the TIVO S2 cannot record SDV programming (or even see it for that matter). I have also learned that TWC in Raleigh, North Carolina is refusing to even give cablecards to people for use in third-party devices.

I'm also aware that TIVO has filed with the FCC regarding the SDV issue and has asked the FCC to require the cable vendors to keep all original, broadcast and cable progrmming available on cablecard (and not using SDV). I really hope the FCC gets involved in this.

Anyway, I really wanted to speak with someone high-enough within the Time-Warner organization who has a knowledge of what I'm talking about and maybe can put some better perspective on it for me.

Is there any way I will be able to effectively use a TIVO S3 with TWC and still record high-definition and standard-definition, digital programming? I hope you have a better prognosis for this than what I am learning in tivocommunity.com, dbsforums.com, dbstalk.com, avsforums.com and satelliteguys.us.

So, far it looks like my best bet might be to remain a DirecTV customer, but I'm hoping that is not the case.

I won't go back to wathcing "live" television and have only three requirements for a DVR:

1. It must relibaly record all selected programming. (TIVO is about 99% - I can understand if the President addresses the nation or some other programming pre-empts my favorite programming)

2. It must reliably record only "first run" episodes of a season pass when instructed.

3. It must reliably fast-forward over commercial advertising.

I hope to hear back from you.

Best Regards,
Bill Tello
[email protected]


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

BillyT2002 said:


> I highly recommend anyone who cares about this issue to send an e-mail to [email protected] and blind carbon copy [email protected] on it.
> 
> Here is the e-mail that I sent: (I'm still waiting to hear back, but will post my response if I get one).
> 
> ...


How many times do you want us to read it??? For pete's sake, you've posted it in FIVE THREADS.

Posting the exact same message in FIVE THREADS is plain irritating!


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

If I posted the information within five separate threads, it only stands to reason that I must have wanted you to read the thread five times.  What I've never reall understood is why people take the time to complain about other people that they don't like or are irritated by when they could just as simply /ignore them.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

BillyT2002 said:


> If I posted the information within five separate threads, it only stands to reason that I must have wanted you to read the thread five times.  What I've never reall understood is why people take the time to complain about other people that they don't like or are irritated by when they could just as simply /ignore them.


That is not the problem. When you post it to five different threads you now have five different discussions. This is why cross posting is discouraged.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> Again, cable has had their two-way solution ready for quite some time:
> http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518185072
> 
> The CE companies don't like it and want a different solution:
> ...


I dont KNOW. And I completely cede the floor to you on all things cablecard. BUT...

It sure seems to me that the cable companies' CC2.0 spec does not at all fit in with the intend of the lawmakers who wrote the law requiring it.

The CC2 spec writtin by the cable people seems ot me to basically force the public to subsidize the cable companies hardware cost by being so generous as to allow us to buy cable boxes that they will load their choice of software on. Seems sort of sleezy to me.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

rminsk said:


> That is not the problem. When you post it to five different threads you now have five different discussions. This is why cross posting is discouraged.


But it is so much fun....


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

You derive fun from irritating others?



me too sometimes.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

Billy66 said:


> You derive fun from irritating others?
> 
> me too sometimes.


this board would have 1/2 the volume if conflict wasnt allowed


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