# Series 4 to be called "Tivo Premiere"?



## McCarron

I just received a TiVo HD via the "Upgrade" program today, and inside the box I received instructions on how to "Setup TiVo Premiere or Premiere XL" 

It's instructional picture has a different back panel picture that isn't the HD or the Series 3. It features only one Cablecard slot and says it's for M-Cards only. It also seems a bit shorter than usual. 

It sounds like either a Series 4 or a revised Series 3/HD model. Anyone seen this before? Figures just my luck that TiVo will release a new unit sometime soon after I purchased a new one.


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## nrc

If you could scan or photograph that and post it you'd make a lot of folks happy.


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## headroll

McCarron said:


> I just received a TiVo HD via the "Upgrade" program today, and inside the box I received instructions on how to "Setup TiVo Premiere or Premiere XL"
> 
> It's instructional picture has a different back panel picture that isn't the HD or the Series 3. It features only one Cablecard slot and says it's for M-Cards only. It also seems a bit shorter than usual.
> 
> It sounds like either a Series 4 or a revised Series 3/HD model. Anyone seen this before? Figures just my luck that TiVo will release a new unit sometime soon after I purchased a new one.


Scan and post. ttiuwp.


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## McCarron

I'm putting up a post on my blog with a PDF link to the scanned document.

Here's a teaser:


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## bkdtv

A reminder...

Quotes from the TiVo CEO back in August:



> As part of this deal, TiVo and Best Buy are together working toward the development of new user interface features for TiVo DVRs sold by Best Buy, which will build upon TiVo's seamless integration of broadcast, cable, and broadband content on the television set&#8230;
> 
> As proof of their commitment, beginning early next year Best Buy will be putting substantial marketing muscle behind this relationship as newly innovative features are rolled out.





> I would say the essence of that [Best Buy] deal is geared toward early next year, where some product improvements and developments that we will be putting forward will be able to be wrapped into the overall strategic marketing relationship with Best Buy, so the guts of the relationship will really get under way then.


Quotes from the TiVo CEO in November:



> In terms of our work with Best Buy, we are extremely excited about our strategic marketing relationship that will kick off early next year, as is Best Buy. Out development work to create unique user interface elements for the Best Buy launch is nearing completion and will be timed with the commencement of Best Buy's strategic marketing initiatives early next year.
> 
> Additionally, we look forward to working with Best Buy to integrate its recently announced digital content offering into that interface next year.





> From Q&A:
> 
> We have not disclosed the nature of the economics of the Best Buy relationship, but I'll simply say that we like they are heavily incented not only get more TiVos in the homes, but to make sure that they support Best Buy digital services in the best possible way.


There was another quote, although I don't have it bookmarked, where TiVo said it would significantly reduce the cost to upgrade older (Series2) customers to HD in 2010.

Back in August, RCN announced that it would deploy a new TiVo DVR with increased capacity in January, 2010 as its default DVR. RCN's Director of Video Operations said this was not the same product currently sold at retail. More recently, RCN said they would deploy the new Tivo DVR in mid-1Q, i.e. February.


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## lew

I don't see a phone jack or S connector. Looks like a lower cost design.


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## nrc

McCarron said:


> I'm putting up a post on my blog with a PDF link to the scanned document.


Am I missing the link to your blog somewhere?


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## McCarron

lew said:


> I don't see a phone jack or S connector. Looks like a lower cost design.


That's what I noticed too, no S-video and slimmer design. Lack of a second card slot could be viewed as a cost cutting measure too.

I posted up my thoughts on the document here on my blog:
http://infiniteshamrock.com/post/308530985/new-tivo-device-to-be-called-tivo-premiere

Here's a clearer look at the back of the device, and a PDF can be found on my blog.


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## MickeS

Interesting, thanks for posting. Looks like Google has no mention of "TiVo Premiere" before you mention it.

I wonder what it will be priced at.


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## McCarron

MickeS said:


> Interesting, thanks for posting. Looks like Google has no mention of "TiVo Premiere" before you mention it.


Yeah I couldn't find anything on it, not even here which I figured would be the first place a rumor like this would turn up.


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## MickeS

McCarron said:


> Yeah I couldn't find anything on it, not even here which I figured would be the first place a rumor like this would turn up.


It kinda looks like some employee just happened to screw up and put in the wrong manual...

It doesn't say anything about built-in wireless, does it?


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## McCarron

MickeS said:


> It kinda looks like some employee just happened to screw up and put in the wrong manual...
> 
> It doesn't say anything about built-in wireless, does it?


Sadly it's not a complete manual, just the CableCard setup manual. All my other manuals are normal for a Tivo HD from what I can tell.


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## MikeAndrews

MickeS said:


> Interesting, thanks for posting. Looks like Google has no mention of "TiVo Premiere" before you mention it.
> 
> I wonder what it will be priced at.


I say it'll be Best Buy / OEM cheap at $99-$199. Wonder what the subscription deal will be.

Way cool. How do they manage to include the wrong instructions? That's what happens when you outsource packaging and fulfillment.

The manual says, "Once you have verified the customer is receiving all encrypted channels...." which leads me to believe it's for cableco techs to install.


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## MickeS

McCarron said:


> Sadly it's not a complete manual, just the CableCard setup manual. All my other manuals are normal for a Tivo HD from what I can tell.


Better than nothing. 

Maybe CES next week will shed some more light on it.


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## drey

Very interesting. I received several TiVo HD units manufactured Dec 20th and they both had regular insert for TiVo HD / Cable Cards. Definitely looks like someone inserted a wrong guide.


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## nrc

netringer said:


> I say it'll be Best Buy / OEM cheap at $99-$199. Wonder what the subscription deal will be.
> 
> Way cool. How do they manage to include the wrong instructions? That's what happens when you outsource packaging and fulfillment.


The fact that it the material is ready to go implies that this box is ready to drop soon. I'd be surprised if it isn't announced and available during CES or soon after. They may be preparing to ship right now. Someone just grabbed a fresh stack of instructions from the wrong pile.



> The manual says, "Once you have verified the customer is receiving all encrypted channels...." which leads me to believe it's for cableco techs to install.


This is similar to the language on the current "give to installer" card that comes with the TiVo HD so I wouldn't read too much into it. In fact, the fact that there a section about what to do before the installer arrives implies that it's not a cable model - at least not in this incarnation.

What I'm wondering is just what it is "Premiere" about this box? As other have mentioned it looks like a slimmed down and cost cutting model. Unless that name is meaningless it must be related to services. Possibly Tivo service and/or some content services included?


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## MickeS

nrc said:


> What I'm wondering is just what it is "Premiere" about this box? As other have mentioned it looks like a slimmed down and cost cutting model. Unless that name is meaningless it must be related to services. Possibly Tivo service and/or some content services included?


To me, "Premiere" is just meaningless marketing term that is meant to imply excellence, but has no real significance. 

Of course, it could also be a hint about TiVo's continued desire to provide movies on demand via Internet download.


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## spocko

McCarron said:


> I posted up my thoughts on the document here on my blog:
> http://infiniteshamrock.com/post/308530985/new-tivo-device-to-be-called-tivo-premiere


Thanks!

It's strange to see that the screenshots included in the document are still 4:3.


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## McCarron

drey said:


> Very interesting. I received several TiVo HD units manufactured Dec 20th and they both had regular insert for TiVo HD / Cable Cards. Definitely looks like someone inserted a wrong guide.


I didn't look at my manufactured date yet, but it shipped on the 24th and got delivered today so I'd guess it's around the same date.


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## Rob Helmerichs

MickeS said:


> To me, "Premiere" is just meaningless marketing term that is meant to imply excellence, but has no real significance.


Yeah, kind of like Marvel Comics...a few years ago, their hardcover books were oversized and thick, so when they introduced a new line of smaller, thinner, cheaper hardcovers, they celled them Marvel Premiere Editions.


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## wmcbrine

I predict this will be the third model in the Series 3 line, rather than a Series 4.

Dig the low profile.

Re: Disappearing s-video... it's weird, but I guess this is a trend now. I just got two devices for Christmas -- a Blu-Ray player, and a media thingie -- that omit s-video, though they each have composite, component and HDMI.


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## gastrof

Does anyone think that this "possibly cheaper" version might be a single tuner device, or has the whole concept of "less than two tuners" in a DVR gone by the wayside by this point in time?


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## bballcards

Considering that it only accepts Multi-Stream CableCards, I'd say it would make no sense for it to be a single-tuner device (i.e. it just about HAS to be a dual-tuner model).


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## jjberger2134

gastrof said:


> Does anyone think that this "possibly cheaper" version might be a single tuner device, or has the whole concept of "less than two tuners" in a DVR gone by the wayside by this point in time?


Personally, I think single tuner has gone by the wayside. Also, the diagram shows a Multi-Stream card. Why offer an M-Card device, but only be able to tune to one channel?


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## Sapphire

wmcbrine said:


> I predict this will be the third model in the Series 3 line, rather than a Series 4.
> 
> Dig the low profile.
> 
> Re: Disappearing s-video... it's weird, but I guess this is a trend now. I just got two devices for Christmas -- a Blu-Ray player, and a media thingie -- that omit s-video, though they each have composite, component and HDMI.


My new AV receiver also had no S-Video inputs in it. They're disappearing.


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## Philmatic

bballcards said:


> Considering that it only accepts Multi-Stream CableCards, I'd say it would make no sense for it to be a single-tuner device (i.e. it just about HAS to be a dual-tuner model).


Could be four or more tuners, instead of giving you the option of single or multiple stream cards like they do now, they just said screw it, made the M-Card the only accepted card and are internally splitting the ATSC and QAM tuners to multiple tuners, dare I say four QAM and four ATSC? 

Looks like it will have a new streamlined power supply, judging from the reduced height. It's possible at this is a new hardware revision for cable companies to distribute to their customers only, as the reference S3/THD hardware was too costly and had features they didn't need?


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## Rob Helmerichs

Philmatic said:


> It's possible at this is a new hardware revision for cable companies to distribute to their customers only, as the reference S3/THD hardware was too costly and had features they didn't need?


But then it probably wouldn't have instructions for the consumer for before the installer shows up. Seems like it's aimed directly at the end-user, not the cablecos.


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## SMWinnie

Philmatic said:


> It's possible at this is a new hardware revision for cable companies to distribute to their customers only, as the reference S3/THD hardware was too costly and had features they didn't need?


...and has the CableCard slot on the back. Wasn't one of the huge S3 problems needing the installer to yank the box out of the AV stack?


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## orangeboy

SMWinnie said:


> ...and has the CableCard slot on the back. Wasn't one of the huge S3 problems needing the installer to yank the box out of the AV stack?


I would have to think that would be a minor issue. If it is that hard to get the DVR out, I would be MUCH more concerned about ventilation issues for the DVR and other components.


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## ellinj

Are M_Cards universally available now? Back when I got my tivo I took whatever they would give me and get working. Thats two S_cards.


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## DCIFRTHS

ellinj said:


> Are M_Cards universally available now? Back when I got my tivo I took whatever they would give me and get working. Thats two S_cards.


I know that Verizon only offers M-Cards in my area - at least that is what I was told by their customer support.


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## TWinbrook46636

I think the TiVo Premiere and Premiere XL are simply lower cost models to replace the current TiVo HD line. The "Premiere" name may even be a Best Buy exclusive. I don't think we'll see a Series 4 for a while yet.


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## bkdtv

ellinj said:


> Are M_Cards universally available now? Back when I got my tivo I took whatever they would give me and get working. Thats two S_cards.


Yes.



TWinbrook46636 said:


> I think the TiVo Premiere and Premiere XL are simply lower cost models to replace the current TiVo HD line..


Recall that the current TiVo is built around a Broadcom SoC from early 2007. Newer, faster SoCs have since replaced the part that TiVo used in its design. A newer SoC could double the performance of the TiVo to support more compelling user interface features (i.e. HD) and superior network throughput.

The Moxi uses one of these newer SoCs its design to support a HD UI and multi-room streaming.



SMWinnie said:


> ...and has the CableCard slot on the back. Wasn't one of the huge S3 problems needing the installer to yank the box out of the AV stack?


The PCB in the TivoHD is massive; it runs the entire length of the DVR. Front panel CableCard slots made sense for that design.

A smaller board design, similar to that found in new cable co DVRs, must be aligned with the rear for the outputs, so that's where the CableCard slot makes sense. TiVo could've used a separate cardslot PCB with a cable connection, but that's just one more part to add unnecessary cost.

TiVo is selling CableCard DVRs to some U.S. and Canadian providers. Many of those boxes will likely be delivered to the customer with the CableCard preinstalled. Cable companies deploying actual TiVos do not want their customers messing with the CableCard, so a rear slot makes sense there too.

Moving the slots to the rear may also allow TiVo to produce a slimmer, sleeker front bezel with fewer parts.


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## SMWinnie

bkdtv said:


> The logic board in the TivoHD is massive; it runs the entire length of the DVR. Since it runs the length of the DVR, front panel CableCard slots made sense.
> 
> A smaller logic board design, similar to that found in cable company DVRs, must be aligned with the rear for the outputs, so that's where the CableCard slot makes sense. TiVo could've used a separate cardslot pcb with a cable connection, but that's just one more part to add unnecessary cost.
> 
> TiVo is also selling CableCard DVRs to some U.S. and Canadian providers. Those boxes will likely be delivered to the customer with the CableCard preinstalled. Cable companies deploying actual TiVos do not want their customers messing with the CableCard, so a rear slot makes sense there too.
> 
> Moving the slots to the rear may also allow TiVo to produce a slimmer, sleeker front bezel with fewer parts.


Without objecting to any of these observations, I'm thinking back three years when the first S3 adopters had to get to those CableCards several times to educate the cable installers. I'm also thinking back a couple years when popping out the CableCards was a pretty annoying debugging procedure. Unless my memory is more faulty than usual, the front placement of the CableCards on the TiVoHD wasn't accidental and was happily received.

The rear placement suggests to me that (1) TiVo doesn't think this is a pain point any more and (2) they have a new reference design optimized (as bkdtv suggests) for selling to/through the cablecos.


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## MikeAndrews

Raj said:


> My new AV receiver also had no S-Video inputs in it. They're disappearing.


I'll bet there is so much hate for the-connector-that-pops-out-when-you-merely-glance-at-it that even the engineers want it gone.

Toslink is next.


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## MikeAndrews

MickeS said:


> To me, "Premiere" is just meaningless marketing term that is meant to imply excellence, but has no real significance.
> 
> Of course, it could also be a hint about TiVo's continued desire to provide movies on demand via Internet download.


A certainty. There have been lotsa hints that TiVo is working toward more downloaded and streamed content.

THAT should make the cablecos happy (not) but it serves as a decent club on TiVo's side.

Services like Hulu would be great, but Hulu itself will be killed by Comcast.


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## richsadams

The lower profile is nice, about the height of a DVD player. And look ma, no exhaust fan! (Perhaps it's underneath?)


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## willv28

richsadams said:


> The lower profile is nice, about the height of a DVD player. And look ma, no exhaust fan! (Perhaps it's underneath?)


That would worry me about upgrades. But a good ventilation design is often good enough for today's equipment. Hopefully it's good enough for upgrades or that they're not prevented...


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## hoagie

DCIFRTHS said:


> I know that Verizon only offers M-Cards in my area - at least that is what I was told by their customer support.


I have a M-stream card in my HD. My provider is Comcast Cable in Royal Oak, MI..


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## MickeS

I don't think they even make S-cards anymore.


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## MickeS

gastrof said:


> Does anyone think that this "possibly cheaper" version might be a single tuner device, or has the whole concept of "less than two tuners" in a DVR gone by the wayside by this point in time?


There is zero chance that it's single tuner. No more DVRs will be single tuner.


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## MediaLivingRoom

Will it have a Unified TiVo software? ClearQAM? Coop Programming? Faster Gb transfer?


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## TWinbrook46636

bkdtv said:


> Yes.
> 
> Recall that the current TiVo is built around a Broadcom SoC from early 2007. Newer, faster SoCs have since replaced the part that TiVo used in its design. A newer SoC could double the performance of the TiVo to support more compelling user interface features (i.e. HD) and superior network throughput.
> 
> The Moxi uses one of these newer SoCs its design to support a HD UI and multi-room streaming.


That doesn't rule it out as being a lower-cost replacement for the TiVo HD series though. Technology advances and costs come down so they can streamline it in some ways while improving it in others. I'm sure the build quality is not going to be as good but that won't matter to most.

It certainly isn't going to be a Series 4 which most here probably think of as high-end in terms of build quality, a/v performance and capabilities like Tru2Way, SDV, WiFi, 3x tuners, etc.


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## jfox8

Great. Just received my new TiVo HD in the mail today, and set it up. I then went over to engadget and saw this. I'm wondering if I should return it and just play the waiting game... I used the upgrade program. Will still be able to use the program if I return the HD within 30 days?


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## nrc

TWinbrook46636 said:


> It certainly isn't going to be a Series 4 which most here probably think of as high-end in terms of build quality, a/v performance and capabilities like Tru2Way, SDV, WiFi, 3x tuners, etc.


I suspect that TiVo would like to ditch the whole "Series" nomenclature and go with something else. As for what people have envisioned for a "Series 4", I think Tru2Way is dead on arrival.

TiVo has shown little interest in swallowing the pill that the cable industry wants to serve up with Tru2Way (ie, the cable company interface for accessing two-way services). As a result they've taken a "wait and see" position on Tru2Way. Now with the FCC signalling that they interested in new ways spur open competition the converter market TiVo has every reason not to go with Tru2Way and allow the cable industry to present that as proof that another standard isn't needed.


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## rv65

netringer said:


> I'll bet there is so much hate for the-connector-that-pops-out-when-you-merely-glance-at-it that even the engineers want it gone.
> 
> Toslink is next.


My Samsung cableco supports toslink but they removed the coaxial audio port. For those people who desire coaxial audio they can purchase an adapter that can enable that functionality.


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## MickeS

jfox8 said:


> Great. Just received my new TiVo HD in the mail today, and set it up. I then went over to engadget and saw this. I'm wondering if I should return it and just play the waiting game... I used the upgrade program. Will still be able to use the program if I return the HD within 30 days?


I would bet that this new one is a stripped down TiVoHD. You're probably beter off keeping the one you already bought.

In any event, CES is next week and maybe they will have information there, so I wouldn't do anything before then.


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## LADYBUGBLUE2002

bkdtv said:


> TiVo is selling CableCard DVRs to some U.S. and *Canadian providers*. Many of those boxes will likely be delivered to the customer with the CableCard preinstalled. Cable companies deploying actual TiVos do not want their customers messing with the CableCard, so a rear slot makes sense there too.


Have you heard of more than the one small cable company in Canada getting these boxes? Here is Canada Tivo HD is not available and if other providers are getting the HD Tivos it would be good to know.


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## BigJimOutlaw

Methinks this unit is all the above... a cost-cutting box for direct customers, Best Buy, AND cable co's. Keeping everything on the same assembly line is common sense cost control.

For the Cablecard installation paper to escape into the wild, this has to be close to release.

Sad to say, I don't think we're going to see the S4 next week (or anytime soon). Showing off more than 1 box at CES would "blur the message". This all-purpose box is probably going to take center stage. (Hopefully along with that wireless adapter. )

Though we could be surprised by its internals, I'm not gonna hold my breath on that.

Congrats on the scoop. It's nice to finally have some news.


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## rv65

This model also lacks coaxial audio. It has the same amount of outputs as my Samsung HD cable boxes so it probably uses the same chip as them. Then again the Tivo HD/XL lacks coaxial audio so it could just be a rehash of it but in a smaller chassis. No fan but it probably has a gazillion holes on the top and the sides to make sure it has enough room to breathe.


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## BigJimOutlaw

I wonder if it could be a digital-only box? Chopping out analog tuning/encoding would cut the cost too, no? And probably power requirements/heat emissions.


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## aaronwt

netringer said:


> I'll bet there is so much hate for the-connector-that-pops-out-when-you-merely-glance-at-it that even the engineers want it gone.
> 
> Toslink is next.


I wish they would dump every connection except HDMI.
That goes for every device.


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## atmuscarella

Looks like a cost saving hardware refresh to me. Personally I have always thought TiVo should do an annual hardware refresh so the hardware changes could be evolutionary along with the occasional revolutionary update, like most of the electronics world does. Guess they don't have enough sales volume to do it. 

Thanks,


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## jcthorne

aaronwt said:


> I wish they would dump every connection except HDMI.
> That goes for every device.


Any device without component output is DOA for a very large portion of the marketplace. HDMI and its DRM BS is out of the question for many and just causes TOO many compatibility issues. Ditch the HDMI and use the component outputs, display the content where ever YOU choose.

As far as cost cutting, I bet the NTSC tuners and analog to digital digitizers are gone too. Hopefully a newer more powerful broadcom chip set to better support h264 video and audio codecs.


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## bicker

Could someone perhaps consider changing the title of this thread? It is, at least, unconfirmed, and perhaps, patently inaccurate.


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## pkscout

If this is TiVo's big CES announcement, I may consider looking at alternatives. I have a Series 3 that works well, but I bought it when they weren't offering lifetime service. So now I either I have to cough up *another* $300 for lifetime, go annual, or get something else. I know TiVo wants to be a software provider/platform and not a hardware vendor, but if the TiVo HD and the TiVo Premiere are all they get done in 3 years, as I said, I think I'll start pondering options. Besides, the software really hasn't gone anywhere in the last 3 years either (outside some new content announcements).


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## bicker

pkscout said:


> If this is TiVo's big CES announcement, I may consider looking at alternatives.


It has been pretty clear, all year, that TiVo was going to announce something big related to their relationship with Best Buy at CES. There has always been a *question *whether they would also announce something related to tru2way.

Quite frankly, if a friend of mine was thinking, mid-year, about "waiting for CES" regarding a "new TiVo", I would have recommended not waiting. I don't see even tru2way support to be a big enough "improvement" to wait for. I believe TiVo would put out a tru2way DVR more to position themselves to become an option for service providers looking for devices to offer for rental than for stand-alone subscribers looking for a DVR experience superior to the TiVo HD.



pkscout said:


> I know TiVo wants to be a software provider/platform and not a hardware vendor, but if the TiVo HD and the TiVo Premiere are all they get done in 3 years, as I said, I think I'll start pondering options.


TiVo has done *a lot* over the last three years. You may not value the things they've done, but that doesn't obviate their accomplishments.


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## 84lion

netringer said:


> I'll bet there is so much hate for the-connector-that-pops-out-when-you-merely-glance-at-it that even the engineers want it gone.


I have used S-Video cables since the late 1980s, when Super VHS VCRs were first introduced, and the worst problem I've ever had is the (very thin) pins getting bent on installation. In all those years that's happened to me once or twice. I've never recalled having the problem of an S-connector "popping out" of the receptacle.

The component video inputs are a better replacement for the S-Video and are available on flat-screen sets these days. As a bonus, component video supports high-definition (e.g. - 720p, 1080i).


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## Turtleboy

This thread title is unfortunate. A new lower cost box is in no way a "Series 4."


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## Jimbo713

Happy New Year!


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## justmike

Switched Digital Support?


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## innocentfreak

bicker said:


> TiVo has done *a lot* over the last three years. You may not value the things they've done, but that doesn't obviate their accomplishments.


I think the problem for me is everything they have done has been fluff and nothing which actually adds to the primary use of Tivo which is for recording and playing TV. Yeah it adds value if you use it, but personally other than recording TV and playback my Tivo doesn't get used for anything else.


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## rainwater

innocentfreak said:


> I think the problem for me is everything they have done has been fluff and nothing which actually adds to the primary use of Tivo which is for recording and playing TV.


That is because recording and playing TV is playing a smaller role in the viewing experience going forward.


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## bicker

innocentfreak said:


> I think the problem for me is everything they have done has been fluff and nothing which actually adds to the primary use of Tivo which is for recording and playing TV.


Sorry, but your evaluation of everything they've done being "fluff" also qualifies as "You may not value the things they've done, but that doesn't obviate their accomplishments." Much of it was not fluff.



innocentfreak said:


> Yeah it adds value if you use it


Yes, that's exactly the issue, and something that shouldn't be lost in the weeds of personal preference. You can surely say, "TiVo has done nothing *for me *lately," but saying that they've done nothing of value, categorically, just doesn't fly IMHO.



innocentfreak said:


> but personally other than recording TV and playback my Tivo doesn't get used for anything else.


Then TiVo may not be developing much in terms of what you'd appreciate. That's fair.

Let's be concrete: Something significant which TiVo has added in the past few years is support for Netflix Watch Instantly. That's not fluff. And note that my family has reason to be distinctly dissatisfied with that "accomplishment" -- my wife is hearing impaired and that feature that TiVo added simply doesn't support closed captioning. (Probably mostly Netflix's fault, but that doesn't matter to us, does it?) So even though that feature doesn't add any value for us (and indeed, arguably, is a slap-in-the-face to a nationally-recognized protected class in our society), I still have to acknowledge it as a significant feature that TiVo has added. And that's just one among many.


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## innocentfreak

rainwater said:


> That is because recording and playing TV is playing a smaller role in the viewing experience going forward.


The ultimate goal at least in my mind is to be able to turn on my TV and have the option of selecting any program at any time. These other services help with that but only because one Tivo can't accomplish this.

I think this is more due to the limited recording space, limited tuners, outdated hardware, etc. With the ability to record anything with 10 tuners right now, I have never had a need for any of the other services including VOD. I don't see that changing as it becomes easier and easier to add tuners. I just don't know if it will be with Tivo.

Now if I only had 1 Tivo with 2 tuners, yeah I would need Amazon, Netflix, Blockbuster, VOD, and other services to recreate what I have now. Of course most of this can be done cheaper and better on other devices.

If you could record everything you ever wanted to watch would you need the other services? The only thing I could see is Netflix or something for movies where you don't want to wait until they are on cable.


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## nrc

pkscout said:


> If this is TiVo's big CES announcement, I may consider looking at alternatives.


What would you expect to see on the rear panel that would make you feel any differently?



Turtleboy said:


> This thread title is unfortunate. A new lower cost box is in no way a "Series 4."


Why? The "Series" designation has more to do with hardware generation than what posters here imagine it should include. The initial Series 2 was a lower cost refresh of the Series 1 that didn't add much beyond a USB port. There's really no new connectivity that is needed on the back panel in a new generation receiver right now. A new generation SOC is much more important for a Series 4 than some new rear panel connections.


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## lew

Tivo released the HDXL, 1T hard drive. WD released a 1T DVR Expander. You think 2T is limited recording space?

VoD is intended, in part, to provide content at the same time it's available on DVD.



innocentfreak said:


> I think this is more due to the limited recording space, limited tuners, outdated hardware, etc. With the ability to record anything with 10 tuners right now, I have never had a need for any of the other services including VOD. I don't see that changing as it becomes easier and easier to add tuners. I just don't know if it will be with Tivo.
> 
> Now if I only had 1 Tivo with 2 tuners, yeah I would need Amazon, Netflix, Blockbuster, VOD, and other services to recreate what I have now. Of course most of this can be done cheaper and better on other devices.
> 
> If you could record everything you ever wanted to watch would you need the other services? The only thing I could see is Netflix or something for movies where you don't want to wait until they are on cable.


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## innocentfreak

lew said:


> Tivo released the HDXL, 1T hard drive. WD released a 1T DVR Expander. You think 2T is limited recording space?
> 
> VoD is intended, in part, to provide content at the same time it's available on DVD.


For 2 tuners no, but then you are also paying a hefty price tag for that storage so for most people it isn't an option. If you only used a Tivo HD with the stock drive, I could see depending on the other services to catch missed episodes, using Netflix to watch series you couldn't record due to lack of space, etc.


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## Grey Griffin

> If you could record everything you ever wanted to watch would you need the other services? The only thing I could see is Netflix or something for movies where you don't want to wait until they are on cable.


One issue I see with your assertion is the assumption that everything will be available on cable or that everyone even has cable. If you want to watch episodes of "The Guild" or "Gemini Division" (legally) then you're pretty much limited to YouTube. If you live in an area where "Legend of the Seeker" is not in syndication you have the option to watch new episodes as they come out on Netflix. If you use OTA or limited cable you can find most original programming from TNT, USA, SyFy and other cable channels on Amazon. These are (relatively) simple, legal things that Tivo has added that can greatly benefit their users

I think what you are calling fluff is really versatility.


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## lew

innocentfreak said:


> For 2 tuners no, but then you are also paying a hefty price tag for that storage so for most people it isn't an option. If you only used a Tivo HD with the stock drive, I could see depending on the other services to catch missed episodes, using Netflix to watch series you couldn't record due to lack of space, etc.


Your point applies to most cable co DVRs. Generally those units can't be expanded and many cablecos offer VoD for current shows.

Customers can purchase a tivo with a 1T internal and 1T external drive or can (void their warranty) and do their own upgrade.

Netflix has releatively few TV series with current season shows.


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## nrc

innocentfreak said:


> I think this is more due to the limited recording space, limited tuners, outdated hardware, etc.


What makes you think from looking at the rear panel that this unit isn't improved in all those areas?

I don't really expect more than two tuners initially (although who knows, it is the "Premiere") but a new generation of hardware is essential to either supporting more tuners per box or allowing cheaper expansion through more boxes.


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## innocentfreak

Grey Griffin said:


> I think what you are calling fluff is really versatility.


To me fluff is anything beyond the basic core use of a product. It can add value or be used to differentiate itself from the competition and doesn't mean it is negative.

Take the Xbox 360 which is first and foremost a video game console. It can also play Netflix, stream content, work as an extender, play DVDs, etc. To me this is all fluff and I bought the 360 in this case for the fluff of working as an extender.

If you ask people what a Tivo is, they will tell you it is a DVR. Anything above and beyond that is fluff which you may or may not have a use for imho. If it came out as a Netflix player and was compared to other Netflix players and then they figured out it could record tv also I would then call the DVR portion fluff.


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## innocentfreak

lew said:


> Customers can purchase a tivo with a 1T internal and 1T external drive or can (void their warranty) and do their own upgrade.


Right but the average person doesn't do that though they may buy the external drives. I wouldn't know I haven't seen one in the store. The only reason the people I know have upgraded Tivos is because I am the one who upgraded them. If they missed a show or a couple episodes they would either not worry about it or stop recording the show and just wait to rent the DVD. They didn't even know they could upgrade them and I bet if you asked about external storage they wouldn't know about it either.



nrc said:


> What makes you think from looking at the rear panel that this unit isn't improved in all those areas?


Nothing at all. This all started because it came up what Tivo has or hasn't done in the last 3 years.

I truly hope it adds these things so I can sell my Tivo HDs or give them to my mom and upgrade.


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## MikeAndrews

I note that S-Video jack being missing from the back panel may pretty much eliminate using the TiVo Premier with an SD TV. I wonder if it even supports a fixed 480i video output on the composite output.


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## innocentfreak

I think most newer SDTVs had component inputs at least for one set of inputs. I know both of my JVC 32" and 36" sets have one since that is how I connect my Tivo HD and they were bought about a year before they dropped SDTVs.


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## richsadams

I think the new built in Blu-ray player will make the TiVo Premier very popular.


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## pkscout

nrc said:


> What would you expect to see on the rear panel that would make you feel any differently?


That's a fair question. It's not the hardware that's become the frustration to me. It's the software. The interface hasn't been updated in any substantial way since I bought my first Series 2 five years ago. When I started I wanted a device that would record TV shows. Now I want that plus something that is basically my digital hub. The TiVo kind of does that with Music and Photos (and video with pyTiVo), but the interface is embarrassing. It's barely one step up from just having a UNIX terminal. When I look at things like XMBC, (gasp) Windows Media Center, and even EchoStar, it is clear that the TiVo interface and way of thinking about media is very dated.

I probably wouldn't be quite so firm on the January CES stuff if I hadn't been in that early adopter Series 3 group who couldn't get Lifetime. Paying, in essence, $600 for Lifetime and hoping this TiVo makes it three more years to get the payback just doesn't make for good math. Buying a new TiVo and getting Lifetime might, but only if TiVo is going to bring something new to the table.

P.S. I saw you ask another posted how I can say that none of this will happen based on the picture of the back panel. The truth is, I can't. Which is why I'm waiting for CES to see what TiVo announces before I make a final decision. But CES has brought me TiVo disappointment year after year, so it's hard to think this one will be any different.


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## dianebrat

nrc said:


> Why? The "Series" designation has more to do with hardware generation than what posters here imagine it should include. The initial Series 2 was a lower cost refresh of the Series 1 that didn't add much beyond a USB port. There's really no new connectivity that is needed on the back panel in a new generation receiver right now. A new generation SOC is much more important for a Series 4 than some new rear panel connections.


I disagree with that, the Series 2 platform was able to handle ethernet, MRV, and network connectivity, none of that was ever ported back to the S1 hardware.

This unit (unless we find out otherwise) is simply the next evolution in the Series 3 platform, much as the TivoHD was the evolution past the S3. I expect the same kinds of incompatibilities that you see between S1, S2, and S3 platforms to come into play when the S4 generation arrives, and this mostly likely is not it.

Diane


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## bkdtv

Turtleboy said:


> This thread title is unfortunate. A new lower cost box is in no way a "Series 4."





nrc said:


> There's really no new connectivity that is needed on the back panel in a new generation receiver right now. A new generation SOC is much more important for a Series 4 than some new rear panel connections.





pkscout said:


> That's a fair question. It's not the hardware that's become the frustration to me. It's the software. The interface hasn't been updated in any substantial way since I bought my first Series 2 five years ago. When I started I wanted a device that would record TV shows. Now I want that plus something that is basically my digital hub. The TiVo kind of does that with Music and Photos (and video with pyTiVo), but the interface is embarrassing.


A new Broadcom SoC is necessary to support...

-a responsive HD UI
-Flash applications
-superior network throughput for streamed MRV
-superior network throughput for downloads from the DVR
-native playback for more formats, such as divx

If a new box has those features, I would consider it a next-generation TiVo. If it also cuts costs by eliminating the second CableCard slot, s-video output, the phone jack, and/or analog tuners, all the better. To have any chance of success, the next TiVo DVR needs to be better and cheaper; it can't be better and more expensive.


----------



## nrc

netringer said:


> I note that S-Video jack being missing from the back panel may pretty much eliminate using the TiVo Premier with an SD TV. I wonder if it even supports a fixed 480i video output on the composite output.


It still appears to have a composite video out connection which wouldn't be necessary for an HD only box.


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## b_scott

netringer said:


> I'll bet there is so much hate for the-connector-that-pops-out-when-you-merely-glance-at-it that even the engineers want it gone.
> 
> Toslink is next.


HDMI falls out easier than S-Video. To say nothing of eSata :down::down:

RE: the tuner question.

U-Verse has 4-tuner boxes with MRV. There's no way tuners are going down - in fact, I see no reason for them not to at least have 3.


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## dlfl

richsadams said:


> I think the new built in Blu-ray player will make the TiVo Premier very popular.


HarDeHar! All the time you spend helping people with hard drive problems and you have time for snappy humor too! Rich you are truly a renee-sauce man!


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## lew

b_scott said:


> I see no reason for them not to at least have 3.


AFAIK SDV dongles can only handle two tuners. The back panel only has 2 USB ports, I assume at least some customers will use one port for wireless. That suggests 2 tuners.

My opinion would be different if the unit either has wireless built in or if tivo releases an adapter that operates as a bridge (connects to the Ethernet port)


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## MickeS

pkscout said:


> That's a fair question. It's not the hardware that's become the frustration to me. It's the software. The interface hasn't been updated in any substantial way since I bought my first Series 2 five years ago. When I started I wanted a device that would record TV shows. Now I want that plus something that is basically my digital hub. The TiVo kind of does that with Music and Photos (and video with pyTiVo), but the interface is embarrassing. It's barely one step up from just having a UNIX terminal. When I look at things like XMBC, (gasp) Windows Media Center, and even EchoStar, it is clear that the TiVo interface and way of thinking about media is very dated.
> 
> I probably wouldn't be quite so firm on the January CES stuff if I hadn't been in that early adopter Series 3 group who couldn't get Lifetime. Paying, in essence, $600 for Lifetime and hoping this TiVo makes it three more years to get the payback just doesn't make for good math. Buying a new TiVo and getting Lifetime might, but only if TiVo is going to bring something new to the table.


I don't care too much about cable stuff like tru2way, so even an incremental upgrade from the original Series 3, which is what I have, would be welcome for me.

Having said that... I agree with everything you wrote. The original 3 year commitment ($6.95/month) that I got with my Series 3 expires in 6 months. Buying LT for the Series 3 seems like a shaky proposition if a low-cost replacement can be had.

But if the replacement STILL uses the same old TiVo interface (which based on the screenshots here this TiVo Premiere seems to do), that makes it far less attractive. The TiVo interface still works great for recording TV, but since TiVo is clearly interested in moving beyond that, they NEED to have something new out soon. As you put it, for anything not having to do with recording TV "the interface is embarrassing". Using the current UI, they will not be able to sell a single unit to someone who is looking to use it as a network/Internet media player, if that person is looking at the competition that's out there. If they want to play in the media player market, they need to do something about this. The TiVo Search interface is IMO a great improvement, and I enjoy using it. I'm hoping they can come up with something similar for the media player functions.


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## nrc

lew said:


> AFAIK SDV dongles can only handle two tuners. The back panel only has 2 USB ports, I assume at least some customers will use one port for wireless. That suggests 2 tuners.
> 
> My opinion would be different if the unit either has wireless built in or if tivo releases an adapter that operates as a bridge (connects to the Ethernet port)


The new Access Point TiVo is prepping appears to have a bridge setting.

In any case, those needing more than one tuning adapter with a wireless USB adapter could probably use a USB hub.


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## tivohaydon

MickeS said:


> To me, "Premiere" is just meaningless marketing term that is meant to imply excellence, but has no real significance.


You don't have "luxury apartment homes" in your area do you? 


MickeS said:


> Of course, it could also be a hint about TiVo's continued desire to provide movies on demand via Internet download.


Sounds reasonable.


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## mbhuff

I can see this being a very good replacement for the current series 3 if:

1) It has native SDV support
2) Gigabit ethernet
3) At least 1TB drive
4) Updated chipset that can drive network/gui faster


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## davezatz

mbhuff said:


> 1) It has native SDV support


I don't believe the cable industry has provided a path to that without implementing tru2way. And I don't believe a retail version of this product will initially launch with tru2way enabled.


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## MickeS

Why is everyone clamoring for Gigabit Ethernet? It's not like the 10/100 is the bottleneck anyway currently, as far as I understand it...? ETA: maybe it's different for MRV than ToGo.


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## davezatz

MickeS said:


> Why is everyone clamoring for Gigabit Ethernet? It's not like the 10/100 is the bottleneck anyway currently, as far as I understand it...? ETA: maybe it's different for MRV than ToGo.


Yeah, not sure what this is about. I can stream 1080 over a 802.11g wireless bridge connected to Vudu with no probs. It wouldn't hurt for TiVoToGo (faster is better, especially when headed to the airport and needing content), but I believe some folks (depending on configuration) already transfer HD via MRV faster than real time (but I'm not one of them). (Wireless currently has a speed problem, it's not processed fast enough. Not sure what the root cause of that is.)


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## 84lion

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by netringer
> I note that S-Video jack being missing from the back panel may pretty much eliminate using the TiVo Premier with an SD TV. I wonder if it even supports a fixed 480i video output on the composite output.





nrc said:


> It still appears to have a composite video out connection which wouldn't be necessary for an HD only box.


Well, there is this little jewel for $159, which would work assuming that the Premiere outputs 480i over component:

http://www.svideo.com/ypbpr2svideo.html

But for that kind of money I might put up with the composite video connection. I have a Sony XBR 27" and XBR2 32" which cost a pretty penny in their day and despite being 20 years and 14 years old respectively still put out a great SD picture. I will be loathe to let either of them go until they fail, which I hope will be some time in coming. The thing is that even the XBR2 can't touch the quality of our now 4-year old 37" Syntax Olevia. Even with SD content, the Olevia does a great job, with colors especially much more accurate than the Sonys.

What would really turn me off from buying any HD unit (Tivo, Blu-ray, etc.) would be having HDMI outputs only, no component video outputs. My understanding is that's coming, though, especially for Blu-ray units.


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## bkdtv

MickeS said:


> Why is everyone clamoring for Gigabit Ethernet? It's not like the 10/100 is the bottleneck anyway currently, as far as I understand it...?


People clamor for gigabit ethernet because they think the slow network throughput on the TiVo is somehow related to its 100Mbps ethernet connection. It's not. The throughput on the TiVo is limited only by the CPU and available memory bandwidth.

No DVR (or media streamer) SoC exists today that can take advantage of gigabit ethernet. If TiVo were to include a gigabit connection on a product in 2010, it would only serve marketing purposes; it would have no real world benefit.

The only thing that will significantly improve network throughput on the TiVo is a new SoC with faster MIPS core and a better memory controller. The newest parts could triple the TiVo's network throughput without hitting the limits of the 100Mbps interface.



davezatz said:


> Yeah, not sure what this is about. I can stream 1080 over a 802.11g wireless bridge connected to Vudu with no probs.


There are apparently two versions of HDX. Vudu HDX streaming for Blu-ray players and TVs is 4-5Mbps, while the downloadable version for their own box is (or was) 8-10Mbps. That's still well below the bitrate used by many local and cable channels.


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## mbhuff

There are a couple of reasons for gig-e even after the reasons stated here against:

1) Gig-e silicon is cheap and standardized
2) Auto-negotiation of speed/duplex with 100MB has "issues". If you have been doing networking that predates even 10base-T you will know why this is important. 
3) Even though 802.3x flow control is available in 100MB, it isn't as widely supported
4) Even though the line rate of a single stream of compressed video isn't limited by 100MB, the faster it is, the sooner the xfer is done. Multiple streams are also possible
5) The current Tivo is lmited by the chipset, memory, and cpu, not the nic. But if you are improving those, no reason not to increase the nic also especially since the silicon is cheap.
6) 802.3an (10GB Base-T) is now starting to be available (10GB over copper, cat6a wiring). It's no where near practicle now, but give it 5-6 years and who knows.


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## Bierboy

netringer said:


> ....Way cool....


Not necessarily. There are many of us who, when we had our CableCARDS installed, specifically requested M-cards, but the cableco came only with S-Cards, saying the M-cards were unavailable. That's happened to me repeatedly with Mediacom, but it's not limited to them. Other cablecos have spewed the same crap. This type of unit could REALLY piss some people off.



ellinj said:


> Are M_Cards universally available now? Back when I got my tivo I took whatever they would give me and get working. Thats two S_cards.





bkdtv said:


> Yes....


Bull crap. I'm living proof. Just TRY to get M-cards in our market (and many others).


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## MickeS

When was it that you requested M-cards but got S-cards? Was it recently?


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## davezatz

bkdtv said:


> There are apparently two versions of HDX. Vudu HDX streaming for Blu-ray players and TVs is 4-5Mbps, while the downloadable version for their own box is (or was) 8-10Mbps. That's still well below the bitrate used by many local and cable channels.


I've got the original, non-CDN, higher-bitrate Vudu content. However, ignoring the details for a second, the point I was trying to convey is that many underestimate their existing home bandwidth and there are other limiting factors within the current TiVo hardware (processor, memory, whatever). The upcoming 802.11n bridge should improve things for those of us on S3/HD hardware, but I'm hopeful the Premiere line has beefed up internals to overcome whatever else is keeping us throttled. Of course, without moving from a copying model to streaming for MRV, I'm still out of luck for most content due to how Cox has implemented the CCI byte in my region.


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## realeawesomedude

I just got my first TiVo for Christmas and have a question for/seek advice from some of you veterans out there:

I am more than a little disappointed that my new TiVo *HD *does not support a *HD *interface, opting instead to display the menus in SD on my plasma HDTV. When I discovered the TiVo Search screen I got excited, but what I've read on these forums seems to indicate that any expansion of that interface to the rest of the box was abandoned a while ago.

If this new box has an HD interface, would TiVo be able to release a firmware update for TiVo HD that includes the HD interface software? Or is the hardware too outdated to support it? Right now, I'm thinking that *if *this new box is announced officially at CES and *if *it supports an HD interface, I may return what I have now (I'll still be within the first 30 days since purchase) and just wait until the new box is released.

_*Yes, I saw at least one other question like this earlier in this thread, but it did not address the HD interface specifically. Frankly, I'm happy with the TiVo HD in every other capacity and don't care about other added features of the new box - except possibly M-card only usage (see below)._



MickeS said:


> When was it that you requested M-cards but got S-cards? Was it recently?


I don't know about Bierboy's case, but I called Cox New Orleans on Monday to get information about their CableCard service fees, availibility, etc. I asked two different techs point-blank - do you have multi-stream cablecards or scards? Each time, the answer was "scards only" without hesitation. The tech is coming out tomorrow to put them in, so I'll guess I'll see then what he brings. I hope I have to come delete this part of my post and be shown wrong, but with Cox I always expect the worst.


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## MickeS

realeawesomedude said:


> I don't know about Bierboy's case, but I called Cox New Orleans on Monday to get information about their CableCard service fees, availibility, etc. I asked two different techs point-blank - do you have multi-stream cablecards or scards? Each time, the answer was "scards only" without hesitation. The tech is coming out tomorrow to put them in, so I'll guess I'll see then what he brings. I hope I have to come delete this part of my post and be shown wrong, but with Cox I always expect the worst.


Let us know what they bring. I have a tendency not to trust anything a "cable guy" says.


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## nrc

realeawesomedude said:


> When I discovered the TiVo Search screen I got excited, but what I've read on these forums seems to indicate that any expansion of that interface to the rest of the box was abandoned a while ago.


Nobody outside of TiVo really knows what TiVo plans as far as expanding that interface to the rest of the box. They've never said that it was planned let alone say that they've abandoned it. Some feel the current box would be too slow for an HD interface, but if the current box can handle the TiVo Search as an HME app in HD then I see on reason that it couldn't handle a similar interface natively.



> If this new box has an HD interface, would TiVo be able to release a firmware update for TiVo HD that includes the HD interface software? Or is the hardware too outdated to support it?


The new box will likely have a new processor that will provide a much more responsive HD interface than the current HD can provide. They may do a dumbed down version to release on the current box, but I wouldn't count on that if an HD interface is important to you.

If it were me and they announce the new box at CES and it's promised for Q1 I'd return the HD and wait. But it's not worth going without TiVo for more than a few months.


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## davezatz

nrc said:


> Nobody outside of TiVo really knows what TiVo plans as far as expanding that interface to the rest of the box. They've never said that it was planned let alone say that they've abandoned it.


The UI _must_ be updated, and they've been working on something for probably two years now. Including hiring Flash Lite folks for something other than prototyping. Not only is the new Search evidence, imo, we also have seen those usability test videos. Hopefully they're nearing completion and we'll see it on this new box.



> If it were me and they announce the new box at CES and it's promised for Q1 I'd return the HD and wait.


I still doubt they'll announce anything at CES, as I wrote in November, for fear of being overshadowed and not wanting to announce until ready to ship. Although this Premiere setup guide could mean they're nearly ready. I'm meeting with TiVo in Vegas next week... so we'll see what I can dig up.


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## Bierboy

MickeS said:


> When was it that you requested M-cards but got S-cards? Was it recently?


Last April.


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## realeawesomedude

MickeS said:


> Let us know what they bring. I have a tendency not to trust anything a "cable guy" says.


I was pleasantly surprised today! I was dreading a headache when the cable guy got to my house, but it couldn't have been any smoother. He brought an M-card and indicated to me that it's not a problem to get them in my area (New Orleans).

He also spent the whole time he was at my house (a whopping 20 minutes ) telling me how TiVo was lightyears better than anything his company offers. He was actually a great TiVo salesman.

Back to my original post: I realized after posting that, while I had forced the connection and update from the TiVo system, I had not yet restarted the box for those updates to take effect. Once I did, the UI became much more bearable. I also discovered that the Netflix UI on TiVo is in HD and looks/works great, so at least I know the hardware can handle it in one form or another.


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## rainwater

realeawesomedude said:


> I was pleasantly surprised today! I was dreading a headache when the cable guy got to my house, but it couldn't have been any smoother. He brought an M-card and indicated to me that it's not a problem to get them in my area (New Orleans).


Cable companies can't even purchase S-cards anymore (and haven't been able to for a while). So, no matter what phone reps will tell you, it is rare that you will find a tech with a working S-card. If they have one, it is probably a return that is faulty.


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## aaronwt

I recently returned my eight single stream cards to FIOS and replaced them with five multistream cards(for 3 TiVoHD boxes and one Series 3). The tech told me that they just turn in any single streams cards and don't put them in the field anymore.


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## mattack

realeawesomedude said:


> Back to my original post: I realized after posting that, while I had forced the connection and update from the TiVo system, I had not yet restarted the box for those updates to take effect.


BTW, the Tivo would also have restarted automatically at 2AM (regardless of whether it was recording.. argh) to install the update.


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## ZeoTiVo

willv28 said:


> That would worry me about upgrades. But a good ventilation design is often good enough for today's equipment. Hopefully it's good enough for upgrades or that they're not prevented...


I would assume a 1 terraByte drive as standard nowadays - at least on a "to be bought at retail" box


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## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> I don't believe the cable industry has provided a path to that without implementing tru2way. And I don't believe a retail version of this product will initially launch with tru2way enabled.


way to go with the downer facts Dave.


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## ZeoTiVo

rainwater said:


> Cable companies can't even purchase S-cards anymore (and haven't been able to for a while). So, no matter what phone reps will tell you, it is rare that you will find a tech with a working S-card. If they have one, it is probably a return that is faulty.


or they just want to use up the remaining S-Cards. So if the device will take 2 S-cards and work then they show up with those and say "Hey, it is all we have in stock". YMMV

So now with just an M-card slot that play is gone. I am sure there will be threads of woe on cbale installers that for any number of reasons can not show up with an M-card, but it is time to move the hardware forward and get better cable card functionality


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## rainwater

ZeoTiVo said:


> or they just want to use up the remaining S-Cards. So if the device will take 2 S-cards and work then they show up with those and say "Hey, it is all we have in stock". YMMV


Yes, some installers may still have them. However, the failure rates on them will be extremely high because there's a good chance they were returned because they were defective. For the most part, I don't think people have a hard time getting M-cards these days.


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## segaily

One reason it might only have one cable card slot is if it has more then 2 tuners. If it was four tuners for example the only choices that would make sense would be either 4 cable card slots or one cable card slot. I can not see them putting 4 cable card slots on a board. 

To me one cable card slot says this TiVo would either have to be a really cost reduced model or a true high end model with 4 or more tuners. I could see it being either but if I had to bet I would go with the 4+ tuner model idea.


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## MickeS

The only reason the previous TiVo HD models had 2 cable card slots were because of S-cards. Since M-cards are now widely available, there is no longer any reason to have more than 1 cable card slot. Simple as that.


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## aaronwt

b_scott said:


> HDMI falls out easier than S-Video. To say nothing of eSata :down::down:
> 
> RE: the tuner question.
> 
> U-Verse has 4-tuner boxes with MRV. There's no way tuners are going down - in fact, I see no reason for them not to at least have 3.


I've owned dozens of HDMI devices over the last six years and I have never had an HDMI cable fall out. If anything the HDMI connection is usually too tight. It's certainly never been loose on any ofmy HDMI devices.


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## anthonymoody

aaronwt said:


> I've owned dozens of HDMI devices over the last six years and I have never had an HDMI cable fall out. If anything the HDMI connection is usually too tight. It's certainly never been loose on any ofmy HDMI devices.


-1. Opposite problem here. And if you search around, I think you'll find I'm in the massive majority. In general HDMI connections are widely considered to be weak, and extremely prone to falling out.

TM


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

I'm with Aaron...never an HDMI connection problem.


----------



## wmcbrine

segaily said:


> To me one cable card slot says this TiVo would either have to be a really cost reduced model or a true high end model with 4 or more tuners. I could see it being either but if I had to bet I would go with the 4+ tuner model idea.


Don't kid yourself. It not only drops one CableCard slot, but the phone and s-video connectors as well. It's a cost-reduced model.

But it could _also_ incorporate improvements over the TiVo HD, if it uses newer chips. Here's hoping. But I'd seriously bet against >2 tuners.


----------



## rainwater

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm with Aaron...never an HDMI connection problem.


Me either. All the hdmi connections that I use are extremely snug and I see no way they could fall out without some decent force.


----------



## aaronwt

wmcbrine said:


> Don't kid yourself. It not only drops one CableCard slot, but the phone and s-video connectors as well. It's a cost-reduced model.
> 
> But it could _also_ incorporate improvements over the TiVo HD, if it uses newer chips. Here's hoping. But I'd seriously bet against >2 tuners.


For me, l I would want is one cable card slot, an HDMI port, and an Ethernet port. i would never use anything else. I wish all electronic devices would do away with all analog connections.


----------



## anthonymoody

Wow you guys are literally shocking me about your HDMI connections. i, everyone I know, and everyone I've encountered online, have nothing but bad experiences wrt HDMI physical connections. The AVS Forums are filled with gripes about it.


----------



## orangeboy

anthonymoody said:


> Wow you guys are literally shocking me about your HDMI connections. i, everyone I know, and everyone I've encountered online, have nothing but bad experiences wrt HDMI physical connections. The AVS Forums are filled with gripes about it.


I'll add to the shock. HDMI has always been a snug fit for me, too. I've got a Vizio TV and 2 TiVo DVRs that's never given me problems. Everything else attaches via component.


----------



## willv28

orangeboy said:


> I'll add to the shock. HDMI has always been a snug fit for me, too. I've got a Vizio TV and 2 TiVo DVRs that's never given me problems. Everything else attaches via component.


Same here. Flawless. The only reason one comes out would be user error or something is wrong with the connector. I could see with a snagged cable and you pull on the until, but never has happened to me.


----------



## moyekj

aaronwt said:


> For me, l I would want is one cable card slot, an HDMI port, and an Ethernet port. i would never use anything else. I wish all electronic devices would do away with all analog connections.


 --1. I've had plenty of cases where HDMI comes loose - component connections are much more solid. Not to mention the various HDMI handshaking and DRM related issues. Plus if you want longish HDMI runs you will need to have an equalizer to clean up the signal. All those factors make me loathe HDMI. I still much prefer using component for cases where 1080p is not needed. I long for the days of no HDMI. Perhaps another protocol such as USB 4.0 will eventually replace it and hopefully with good connectors such as ethernet. Not to mention that for boxes such as Slingbox you still need analog outputs...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

wmcbrine said:


> Don't kid yourself. It not only drops one CableCard slot, but the phone and s-video connectors as well. It's a cost-reduced model.
> 
> But it could _also_ incorporate improvements over the TiVo HD, if it uses newer chips. Here's hoping. But I'd seriously bet against >2 tuners.


yep - SDV just knocks >2 tuners in the head. That would be something for the Series 4 perhaps that has a better internal SDV solution. The new Broadcom chips would reduce overall cost as well so likely they are in there


----------



## fyodor

wmcbrine said:


> Don't kid yourself. It not only drops one CableCard slot, but the phone and s-video connectors as well. It's a cost-reduced model.
> 
> But it could _also_ incorporate improvements over the TiVo HD, if it uses newer chips. Here's hoping. But I'd seriously bet against >2 tuners.


4 tuners really only makes sense if they're going to be moving to some sort of server-streaming model. Which would involve making a fundamentally different type of product, which I don't see as likely.

Yes, yes, I know that someone could conceivably have a single room solution where they just want to record four shows at once and watch them from the same location, but it would be a small minority of the already small minority of people that want four tuners in the first place.

From a business standpoint it makes more sense to have your multiple-unit setup be two Tivos, rather than some sort of special four tuner unit and companiosn streamer. No need to support fundamentally different product lines.


----------



## innocentfreak

fyodor said:


> 4 tuners really only makes sense if they're going to be moving to some sort of server-streaming model. Which would involve making a fundamentally different type of product, which I don't see as likely.


From what I have read on here and on other sites, the new chips would make it possible to stream to another Tivo versus having to transfer similar to how extenders like the 360 work with Window 7 and Media Center.



fyodor said:


> Yes, yes, I know that someone could conceivably have a single room solution where they just want to record four shows at once and watch them from the same location, but it would be a small minority of the already small minority of people that want four tuners in the first place.


The big advantage with more tuners is the more tuners there are the less managing of season passes you have to do. Why juggle 2 or 3 season pass managers when you can have one by adding more tuners? You also open up the option of more padding to handle networks that can't run on time. Also as you add more people to a household the more tuners you can possibly need/use.

Personally I would like to see 6 tuners per Tivo/DVR since that is what a cable card can handle. Currently I rent three cable cards to handle those same six streams. I still need two rooms so I would still need two Tivos so Tivo would lose one sale assuming the units with more than 2 tuners didn't cost more. Of course at this point I will probably be replacing one of my Tivos anyway with one of the new cable card products announced at CES this week. At least one, the Ceton card, we know will offer 4 tuners when it comes out.


----------



## wmcbrine

aaronwt said:


> I wish all electronic devices would do away with all analog connections.


If you don't like them, don't use them. Why would you wish them away for the rest of us?


----------



## mattack

aaronwt said:


> For me, l I would want is one cable card slot, an HDMI port, and an Ethernet port. i would never use anything else. I wish all electronic devices would do away with all analog connections.


I like the analog connections so I can record to my non-Tivo recorder and watch non-scripted things 'faster than realtime'. (I previously used to record more things directly on that recorder, but since I can also have the CC left on with S3/TivoHD, I do that often too.. if I'm not recording it for keeps.) I realize that is a very unusual use case.. If the Tivo itself let me watch 'faster than realtime' (with sound), of course I wouldn't go through the (minor) hassle. But it's something I've grown addicted to.


----------



## innocentfreak

wmcbrine said:


> If you don't like them, don't use them. Why would you wish them away for the rest of us?


I may be wrong, but I believe by having analog support it increases the cost of the product due to the chipset it requires. I thought in one of the threads I read that some of the newer chipsets support more tuners but it comes at the cost of eliminating analog support since they don't do both. Again I may be remembering wrong but I know it has come up in the past. Also as more providers drop or limit analog support there is less and less need to support it.


----------



## nrc

ZeoTiVo said:


> yep - SDV just knocks >2 tuners in the head. That would be something for the Series 4 perhaps that has a better internal SDV solution. The new Broadcom chips would reduce overall cost as well so likely they are in there


Why would SDV present any greater a problem for this box than any of the other multi-tuner cable card solutions? The Motorola unit evidently handles more than two tuners and you can just connect multiple SA units.

Everything people are saying here about "it's not a Series 4 because it doesn't have..." is nonsense. The "Series" designations have always been about hardware generation and not feature sets.


----------



## magnus

Well, it might be a Series 4... but I'm disappointed that it looks like there will not be more than 2 tuners. I think Tivo is going to need 4 of them to keep up.



nrc said:


> Why would SDV present any greater a problem for this box than any of the other multi-tuner cable card solutions? The Motorola unit evidently handles more than two tuners and you can just connect multiple SA units.
> 
> Everything people are saying here about "it's not a Series 4 because it doesn't have..." is nonsense. The "Series" designations have always been about hardware generation and not feature sets.


----------



## nrc

magnus said:


> Well, it might be a Series 4... but I'm disappointed that it looks like there will not be more than 2 tuners. I think Tivo is going to need 4 of them to keep up.


What difference would you expect that would indicate more than two tuners?


----------



## magnus

Yep, I guess that we'll have to wait a few days but I'm guessing that it's not going to have more of them.



nrc said:


> What difference would you expect that would indicate more than two tuners?


----------



## nrc

magnus said:


> Yep, I guess that we'll have to wait a few days but I'm guessing that it's not going to have more of them.


Sorry, I guess my question wasn't clear. Looking at the back panel of this devices, why do you assume that it would only have two tuners?


----------



## TWinbrook46636

nrc said:


> Sorry, I guess my question wasn't clear. Looking at the back panel of this devices, why do you assume that it would only have two tuners?


I think the fact that it looks low end suggests it may be bare bones and thus only two tuners.


----------



## TivoCentral

willv28 said:


> Same here. Flawless. The only reason one comes out would be user error or something is wrong with the connector. I could see with a snagged cable and you pull on the until, but never has happened to me.


I agree that most HDMI connectors don't fit as tightly as most RCA connectors, but I have a different take on it:

- As long as HDMI makes the connection, tight or loose doesn't matter, and for me, the connection has always been good.

- The only reason I've ever had a cable of any type pull out of any AV or IT component is that I had too much tension in the wrong direction... cable management.

- My most serious cable "looseness/tightness" issue has been component cables. For some reason, they all seem a lot tighter than composite, and on one DVD player I have, I have to be really careful, because last time I removed the cables to move it, the cables nearly pulled the jacks out of the back.


----------



## bicker

innocentfreak said:


> I may be wrong, but I believe by having analog support it increases the cost of the product due to the chipset it requires.


Makes sense to me. Even if the circuitry itself isn't of-issue, surely providing software and support for more functionality costs more than providing software and support for less functionality, so unless the extra functionality effectively pays for itself, it is effectively subsidized by the rest of the value being offered. I'd much rather have what I pay for include as little subsidy for functionality I don't care about as possible.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

bicker said:


> Makes sense to me. Even if the circuitry itself isn't of-issue, surely providing software and support for more functionality costs more than providing software and support for less functionality, so unless the extra functionality effectively pays for itself, it is effectively subsidized by the rest of the value being offered. I'd much rather have what I pay for include as little subsidy for functionality I don't care about as possible.


I have said that TiVo would benefit greatly from a unit that was digital only as the analog adds in more headaches - and going above 2 tuners would increase the cost and headaches if analog is included.
However if this unit is to be sold at Best Buy in an effort to boost sales it will need analog support and that I think would limit the tuners to 2 from a cost and development perspective.



nrc said:


> Everything people are saying here about "it's not a Series 4 because it doesn't have..." is nonsense. The "Series" designations have always been about hardware generation and not feature sets.


TiVo is in a quandary over how to proceed with digital giving the snarl tru2way has become and SDV requiring hanging multiple TA's off the back for more than 2 channels. Neither current way is a good option for producing a next gen high end DVR and I think TiVo needs an answer to this before going to more than 2 tuners.

TiVo has two hardware generations already in the series 3 and series 2 also has multiple hardware generations. The jump from 2 to 3 was about cable card and being able to directly record the digital stream and thus truly record HD content. This unit would need some equivalent functionality jump to get the series 4 moniker in my opinion.


----------



## aaronwt

moyekj said:


> --1. I've had plenty of cases where HDMI comes loose - component connections are much more solid. Not to mention the various HDMI handshaking and DRM related issues. Plus if you want longish HDMI runs you will need to have an equalizer to clean up the signal. All those factors make me loathe HDMI. I still much prefer using component for cases where 1080p is not needed. I long for the days of no HDMI. Perhaps another protocol such as USB 4.0 will eventually replace it and hopefully with good connectors such as ethernet. Not to mention that for boxes such as Slingbox you still need analog outputs...


It's just that I've used literally many, many, dozens of HDMI devices starting in 2004 with the HDTiVO from DirecTV. I have never had a loose HDMI connection. ANd currently I use 25 to 30 HDMI devices on a regular basis. And I am constantly getting new HDMI devices. These include Set Top Boxes, TVs, SPlitters, Switches, Processors, etc. Every one has always had a snug fit for me. I have never had one come loose.

And of course this includes my current nine TiVos. They all have a very snug connection with the HDMI cable.


----------



## aaronwt

wmcbrine said:


> If you don't like them, don't use them. Why would you wish them away for the rest of us?


To lower the cost of the device. I'll dump the device before I use an analog connection with it.


----------



## SullyND

I wonder if this will have the keyboard remote. Maybe just the XL?


----------



## fyodor

innocentfreak said:


> From what I have read on here and on other sites, the new chips would make it possible to stream to another Tivo versus having to transfer similar to how extenders like the 360 work with Window 7 and Media Center.


The hardware isn't the issue. It's finding and hiring people who have handled this type of streaming, implementing the software, and supporting it. Developing that type of internal competence is time consuming and expensive. All this on top of supporting their existing products. And for what? The relatively small percentage of people that want four tuners and would buyit from Tivo in a client-server setup but not in a multiple-Tivo setup



innocentfreak said:


> The big advantage with more tuners is the more tuners there are the less managing of season passes you have to do. Why juggle 2 or 3 season pass managers when you can have one by adding more tuners? You also open up the option of more padding to handle networks that can't run on time. Also as you add more people to a household the more tuners you can possibly need/use.
> 
> Personally I would like to see 6 tuners per Tivo/DVR since that is what a cable card can handle. Currently I rent three cable cards to handle those same six streams. I still need two rooms so I would still need two Tivos so Tivo would lose one sale assuming the units with more than 2 tuners didn't cost more. Of course at this point I will probably be replacing one of my Tivos anyway with one of the new cable card products announced at CES this week. At least one, the Ceton card, we know will offer 4 tuners when it comes out.


I understand why it is desirable to you. I just don't think that developing a new client-server model brings in enough new customers to Tivo to make it a worthwhile proposition. Or that you should plausibly expect it to happen. I'd like it too, but I'd be surprised.


----------



## morac

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have said that TiVo would benefit greatly from a unit that was digital only as the analog adds in more headaches - and going above 2 tuners would increase the cost and headaches if analog is included.
> However if this unit is to be sold at Best Buy in an effort to boost sales it will need analog support and that I think would limit the tuners to 2 from a cost and development perspective.


I don't see what difference being sold at Best Buy or not would have on analog support. Analog TV via antenna is dead and analog TV via cable is either dead or dying depending on your location and cable provider (Comcast will be virtually analog free by the end of the year). Simply put analog support really isn't needed any more. It's akin to adding a VHS tape slot to a Blu-ray player. Some people might use it, but the majority would not.

And to add to the HDMI cable survey, I've never had any problems with HDMI cables falling out. I had a lot more problems with S-Video (do to bent pins) then I've ever had with HDMI.


----------



## Stormspace

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have said that TiVo would benefit greatly from a unit that was digital only as the analog adds in more headaches - and going above 2 tuners would increase the cost and headaches if analog is included.
> However if this unit is to be sold at Best Buy in an effort to boost sales it will need analog support and that I think would limit the tuners to 2 from a cost and development perspective.
> 
> TiVo is in a quandary over how to proceed with digital giving the snarl tru2way has become and SDV requiring hanging multiple TA's off the back for more than 2 channels. Neither current way is a good option for producing a next gen high end DVR and I think TiVo needs an answer to this before going to more than 2 tuners.
> 
> TiVo has two hardware generations already in the series 3 and series 2 also has multiple hardware generations. The jump from 2 to 3 was about cable card and being able to directly record the digital stream and thus truly record HD content. This unit would need some equivalent functionality jump to get the series 4 moniker in my opinion.


It looks to me like a Windows Me device. Meaning that TiVo is offering a new product just to stay current, keep money flowing, and remain in peoples mind. I also think they've listened to people and that this unit will be inexpensive. I suspect a smaller HDD, or a laptop drive since they don't generate as much heat.

Including SDV support should be a given in this box and would eliminate one of the speed bumps the current line of HD units have. I'm also thinking less than a 100.00 for it. Let the mocking begin..


----------



## Stormspace

aaronwt said:


> It's just that I've used literally many, many, dozens of HDMI devices starting in 2004 with the HDTiVO from DirecTV. I have never had a loose HDMI connection. ANd currently I use 25 to 30 HDMI devices on a regular basis. And I am constantly getting new HDMI devices. These include Set Top Boxes, TVs, SPlitters, Switches, Processors, etc. Every one has always had a snug fit for me. I have never had one come loose.
> 
> And of course this includes my current nine TiVos. They all have a very snug connection with the HDMI cable.


I've only disconnected/reconnected the HDMI on my set once since I got it, and that was when I got the TiVo HD. I moved the HDMI from the DVD player to the TiVo. HDMI isn't USB. It's not something you continually unplug and plug, you plug it in once and leave it alone until your configuration changes or you decide to move. For me USB has had more issues, but that might have been caused by an inexperienced user.


----------



## bkdtv

News from yesterday

Broadcom said that the next-generation BCM7420 announced at CES last year was in production and shipping to customers. That's the media center "dream chip" with 1080p60 output and "PC class 2D and OpenGL 3D graphics" that can support six tuners while streaming HD to another TV, or support four tuners while streaming HD to at least three extenders simultaneously over MoCA.

Broadcom also announced a new, low-cost DVR SoC with 1080p60 output. This SoC offers a slower MIPS processor, half the memory bandwidth, and no MoCA, so its tuner and multi-room capabilities are much more limited. It's essentially a "lite" version of the BCM7410/BCM7420 for dual-tuner products that stream HD to one room.


----------



## daveak

bkdtv said:


> News from yesterday
> 
> Broadcom said that the next-generation BCM7420 announced at CES last year was in production and shipping to customers.


Wouldn't it be something if the TiVo Premiere had this chip? Even if it did not do a whole lot more right out of the box, the feature (software capability) expansion possibilities would be great. And much faster UI response right away...  And then Vudu 1080P output. Yeehaw.

If they do anything at this show, I would think it would be some type of joint announcement with DirecTV and/ or Best Buy.


----------



## moyekj

daveak said:


> Wouldn't it be something if the TiVo Premiere had this chip? Even if it did not do a whole lot more right out of the box, the feature (software capability) expansion possibilities would be great. And much faster UI response right away...  And then Vudu 1080P output. Yeehaw.


 Doesn't follow the apparent cost-reduction trends that are apparent in this new box but one can always hope... Regardless pretty much any newer chip set should offer a substantial speed/performance boost compared to current S3 & THD units. Hopefully that solves the networking performance issues and opens the door to streaming (instead of copying) for MRV purposes to bypass the CCI=0x2 issue.


----------



## nelamvr6

lew said:


> I don't see a phone jack or S connector. Looks like a lower cost design.


That could lower Tivo's cost, but that doesn't necessarily mean this is targeted toward the lower end of Tivo's product line.

S Video is moribund, as is dial up.

I would say that Tivo not including these is similar to computer motherboard manufacturers abandoning parallel ports...


----------



## nelamvr6

MickeS said:


> When was it that you requested M-cards but got S-cards? Was it recently?





Bierboy said:


> Last April.


Last *April*?

So you really have no idea what is available in your area now, do you?


----------



## nelamvr6

orangeboy said:


> I'll add to the shock. HDMI has always been a snug fit for me, too. I've got a Vizio TV and 2 TiVo DVRs that's never given me problems. Everything else attaches via component.





willv28 said:


> Same here. Flawless. The only reason one comes out would be user error or something is wrong with the connector. I could see with a snagged cable and you pull on the until, but never has happened to me.


I've never had a single HDMI connection issue.

As for all the complaints on AVS Forums, it's prolly a good idea to remember that very few people will post to report that they don't have any issues, except in reply to other reports of complaints.

It is entirely possible, and in my mind probable, that those having problems with HDMI represent a tiny fraction of those using HDMI.

Of course, this is just MHO, YMMV etc.


----------



## bkdtv

fyodor said:


> The hardware isn't the issue. It's finding and hiring people who have handled this type of streaming, implementing the software, and supporting it. Developing that type of internal competence is time consuming and expensive. All this on top of supporting their existing products. And for what? The relatively small percentage of people that want four tuners and would buyit from Tivo in a client-server setup but not in a multiple-Tivo setup


I don't necessarily disagree, but keep in mind that Verizon and U-Verse already offer multi-room viewing with client STBs. Comcast, Brighthouse, and Time Warner are now deploying MoCA-capable boxes and also plan to support multi-room viewing with low-cost STBs in the next 18-24 months.

A number of providers include one SD STB free with service, and within 18 months, many of those (like the DCX700) will support multi-room with the Motorola DCX3400 DVRs now being widely deployed.

The low-cost, multi-room client is coming whether TiVo likes it or not.


----------



## nelamvr6

wmcbrine said:


> If you don't like them, don't use them. Why would you wish them away for the rest of us?





aaronwt said:


> To lower the cost of the device. I'll dump the device before I use an analog connection with it.


There are still audiophiles out there, I will NEVER use HDMI to transport audio so long as I still have an option...


----------



## atmuscarella

nelamvr6 said:


> There are still audiophiles out there, I will NEVER use HDMI to transport audio so long as I still have an option...


Seeings I know little to nothing about why it matters one way or the other would you like to elaborate?

Thanks,


----------



## Brainiac 5

nelamvr6 said:


> There are still audiophiles out there, I will NEVER use HDMI to transport audio so long as I still have an option...


But if you're watching digital TV, the signal has already been transported digitally, so how can HDMI vs. analog make a difference?


----------



## bicker

(except by having the conversion to analog degrade the signal)


----------



## nelamvr6

Brainiac 5 said:


> But if you're watching digital TV, the signal has already been transported digitally, so how can HDMI vs. analog make a difference?


I probably should have been more clear in my post.

If I had a high end AV receiver or pre amp with HDMI inputs and high quality DACs to handle the D/A conversion, you're right, transporting audio via HDMI would not be a problem. But my pre amp is 100% analog.

And likewise, as you mentioned, digital audio from a digital TV signal should pose no problem. And lets be honest, there's really no audiophile quality audio coming from TV anyways, right? But somewhere along the line the digital signal has to be converted to analog. Crappy DAC = crappy audio.

When I posted that, I was really thinking more about my BluRay player, which also is a "Universal" player. It is equipped with excellent DACs. While it does have HDMI outputs, I use the analog outputs to deliver the audio signal to my pre amp.


----------



## MickeS

Brainiac 5 said:


> But if you're watching digital TV, the signal has already been transported digitally, so how can HDMI vs. analog make a difference?


The DRM is the main reason I still hope component stays widely available.


----------



## MikeAndrews

MickeS said:


> The DRM is the main reason I still hope component stays widely available.


The DRM is main reason WE MUST CLOSE THE ANALOG HOLE!


----------



## Stormspace

MickeS said:


> The DRM is the main reason I still hope component stays widely available.


And if HDCP ever updates or glitches you'll need it to watch video.


----------



## spocko

netringer said:


> The DRM is main reason WE MUST CLOSE THE ANALOG HOLE!


When you say "we", you must be speaking from the perspective of the content owners, MPAA, etc. "We" the consumers do not benefit if the analog hole is closed. There are plenty of displays in use that support component video but not hdmi. Video distribution is also much easier with component than hdmi. It would be premature for Tivo to drop component video output in the near future, and based on the picture of the "TiVo Premiere" posted earlier, they aren't going to.


----------



## morac

nelamvr6 said:


> When I posted that, I was really thinking more about my BluRay player, which also is a "Universal" player. It is equipped with excellent DACs. While it does have HDMI outputs, I use the analog outputs to deliver the audio signal to my pre amp.


BluRay is one of the reasons audiophiles would _want_ to use HDMI since HDMI is the only cable with the bandwidth capacity to handle HD (non-compressed) 7.1 (and 5.1) audio.


----------



## Jonathan_S

morac said:


> BluRay is one of the reasons audiophiles would _want_ to use HDMI since HDMI is the only cable with the bandwidth capacity to handle HD (non-compressed) 7.1 (and 5.1) audio.


HDMI is the only consumer digital cable with the bandwidth to carry those.
A blue-ray player with 7.1 analog outputs will happily output the entire signal over them to an analog pre-amp/receiver.


----------



## nelamvr6

netringer said:


> The DRM is main reason WE MUST CLOSE THE ANALOG HOLE!


I hope you reconsider, what you posted makes no sense on any level.


----------



## nelamvr6

morac said:


> BluRay is one of the reasons audiophiles would _want_ to use HDMI since HDMI is the only cable with the bandwidth capacity to handle HD (non-compressed) 7.1 (and 5.1) audio.


No 5.1 here. No 7.1 here. Glorious 2 channel.

I may go the HT route someday, but if I do I will even then maintain a STEREO (that's right, I said it!  ) system for audio.

BTW, analog cables would also have the bandwidth to handle HD 7.1 and 5.1 audio. And to spare.


----------



## MikeAndrews

spocko said:


> When you say "we", you must be speaking from the perspective of the content owners, MPAA, etc. ...


Beembo. DRM P's me off enough that I could walk away if it gets any worse. I do not own a single piece of ITunes store content I paid for.

I almost trashed my DVD player due it being able to tell me I'm not allowed to stop, rewind or fast forward when it decides I must watch the commercial on the DVD. I found out that yanking the power cord still works.

I'll go OTA and downloads if it comes to it.

KILL THE COPY FLAG! Do not buy defective by design.


----------



## wmcbrine

netringer said:


> I almost trashed my DVD player due it being able to tell me I'm not allowed to stop, rewind or fast forward when it decides I must watch the commercial on the DVD.


This is why illegal copies of DVDs can actually be a superior product to the originals. Kind of a dumb move by the MPAA there.


----------



## mattack

netringer said:


> I almost trashed my DVD player due it being able to tell me I'm not allowed to stop, rewind or fast forward when it decides I must watch the commercial on the DVD.


VIRTUALLY always, on a standard player (i.e. not hacked), you can get past these "unskippable" ads/previews(*).

Try Chapter forward
Try fast forward
Try hitting the 'top menu' button on the remote
Try hitting stop then play

I know it SOUNDS like a lot of steps, but for me, chapter forward seems to work on the vast majority of DVDs I've tried. I think there have been very very very few that have literally made me sit there and watch the junk before the movie.

(*) I actually LIKE previews, even though they are obviously ads. I will often CHOOSE to watch the previews, after I have watched the movie.. Often the previews they show is the same segment they tried to force me to watch at the beginning. [I like having the preview of *THAT* movie on the DVD too. I think it's interesting to watch the preview after seeing the movie to see what they chose to show, and how the scenes in the preview are often out of chronological order of of the movie.]


----------



## mattack

morac said:


> (Comcast will be virtually analog free by the end of the year).


How much is 'virtually'? You mean even not the local channels? While I probably will get another cablecard so both my S3 & TivoHD have cablecards, I still like the analog channels at LEAST for the local channels.


----------



## aaronwt

nelamvr6 said:


> No 5.1 here. No 7.1 here. Glorious 2 channel.
> 
> I may go the HT route someday, but if I do I will even then maintain a STEREO (that's right, I said it!  ) system for audio.
> 
> BTW, analog cables would also have the bandwidth to handle HD 7.1 and 5.1 audio. And to spare.


I haven't used a two channel system in almost twenty years.


----------



## flaminiom

mattack said:


> How much is 'virtually'? You mean even not the local channels? While I probably will get another cablecard so both my S3 & TivoHD have cablecards, I still like the analog channels at LEAST for the local channels.


Here they just dumped all but 2-20. Basically the four networks, PBS, and a few PEGs. They tried to move the PEGs but got caught up in court. That's probably about as far as they'll go without giving out their cheap boxes free to basic subscribers.


----------



## gantt

McCarron said:


> I just received a TiVo HD via the "Upgrade" program today, and inside the box I received instructions on how to "Setup TiVo Premiere or Premiere XL" ... It sounds like either a Series 4 or a revised Series 3/HD model. Anyone seen this before? Figures just my luck that TiVo will release a new unit sometime soon after I purchased a new one.


Back on topic:

Your post caused me to return a TiVo HD at the last minute, unopened. I decided to wait a little bit to see what, if anything, this Premiere model has to offer - although I expect to be disappointed.

I did notice there appeared to be no TiVo HDs in stock. Coincidence?


----------



## DCIFRTHS

bkdtv said:


> News from yesterday
> 
> Broadcom said that the next-generation BCM7420 announced at CES last year was in production and shipping to customers. That's the media center "dream chip" with 1080p60 output and "PC class 2D and OpenGL 3D graphics" that can support six tuners while streaming HD to another TV, or support four tuners while streaming HD to at least three extenders simultaneously over MoCA.
> 
> Broadcom also announced a new, low-cost DVR SoC with 1080p60 output. This SoC offers a slower MIPS processor, half the memory bandwidth, and no MoCA, so its tuner and multi-room capabilities are much more limited. It's essentially a "lite" version of the BCM7410/BCM7420 for dual-tuner products that stream HD to one room.


My concern with this is that when the S3 was introduced, there were also two Broadcom chips - one more capable than the other. TiVo chose the less capable chip. It seems that TiVo has a habit of under-powering their boxes, as they opt for a previous generation, or a less capable, cheaper, SoC.

Let's see if history repeats itself.

BTW, all my Broadcom information comes from you (bkdtv), and I appreciate all of the details you post here. Thanks, and please don't stop posting!


----------



## nelamvr6

aaronwt said:


> I haven't used a two channel system in almost twenty years.


Meanwhile I've been using a 2 channel system for 50 years...


----------



## bkdtv

DCIFRTHS said:


> My concern with this is that when the S3 was introduced, there were also two Broadcom chips - one more capable than the other. TiVo chose the less capable chip. It seems that TiVo has a habit of under-powering their boxes, as they opt for a previous generation, or a less capable, cheaper, SoC.


The TiVo Series3 used the most capable chip available at the time (BCM7308). You must be thinking of the TivoHD. Both the BCM7400 and BCM7401 were announced six months before the TivoHD's release, with the BCM7400 being the much faster of the two. TiVo used the slower BCM7401.

As it turns out, the BCM7400 (used in Moxi) didn't ship in volume until the second half of 2008, more than a year after the TivoHD was released. The BCM7401 was really TiVo's only choice for a multi-format DVR SoC at the time the TivoHD was designed and released.


----------



## mattack

flaminiom said:


> Here they just dumped all but 2-20. Basically the four networks, PBS, and a few PEGs. They tried to move the PEGs but got caught up in court. That's probably about as far as they'll go without giving out their cheap boxes free to basic subscribers.


OK, I thought you had more detailed info. I personally get through something in the low 30s, but 29 (Discovery) is the highest analog one I care about.


----------



## ellinj

Any word from tivo at CES?


----------



## bicker

No.


----------



## Southcross

very very interesting thread.. what I'd love to know is will Tivo.com offer special pricing to existing customers? I can already get a TiVo HD for $149, if it were say $99 for the "Premiere" I'd jump on it


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Southcross said:


> very very interesting thread.. what I'd love to know is will Tivo.com offer special pricing to existing customers? I can already get a TiVo HD for $149, if it were say $99 for the "Premiere" I'd jump on it


maybe, but no details this week.


----------



## Aero 1

ellinj said:


> Any word from tivo at CES?


nope, but they are advertising at CES at least










source: http://www.winsupersite.com/events/ces2010_02.asp


----------



## TWinbrook46636

Aero 1 said:


> nope, but they are advertising at CES at least
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source: http://www.winsupersite.com/events/ces2010_02.asp


I can see people wandering around CES looking for the TiVo booth. "They have a huge inflatable TiVo outside, where the hell are they?"


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Sorta awkward.

The big blow-up thing is like saying, "Hey, we still exist" and then the only thing they're showing without an appointment and signed NDA is plush dolls at their receptionist's desk.


----------



## Southcross

Tivo HD out of stock on their website.... *rubs hands together* give me series 4!


----------



## innocentfreak

It would be nice. My mom is quickly getting tired of the Fios DVR just because previously she hasn't used anything but Tivo in the past. I am just holding out as long as I can so I can hopefully give her mine so I can then upgrade.


----------



## LoadStar

I agree, it would be nice if they'd just bring this out already. My parents are still on my old Series 1, and they're now looking into an HDTV. I'd love to upgrade them to the new box at the same time.


----------



## bicker

All indications, so far, is that what is coming out is not a Series 4, but just a third-generation Series 3.


----------



## innocentfreak

True but I would rather buy a refreshed series 3 than older Tivo HD based off the age of the platform. Then again depending on the differences the Tivo HD may be the better unit.


----------



## bicker

"Refreshed" versus "cost-reduced"... only time will tell.


----------



## lessd

innocentfreak said:


> True but I would rather buy a refreshed series 3 than older Tivo HD based off the age of the platform. Then again depending on the differences the Tivo HD may be the better unit.


Remember the Series 2 540 TiVo that replaced the 240, the 540 looked better but was not as fast, from an operational point of view I don't think one got a more technical advanced TiVo, just a TiVo that looked better and cost less.


----------



## innocentfreak

lessd said:


> Remember the Series 2 540 TiVo that replaced the 240, the 540 looked better but was not as fast, from an operational point of view I don't think one got a more technical advanced TiVo, just a TiVo that looked better and cost less.


Actually I don't because I was with directv at the time since I switched since they had dual tuners befoe Tivo offered them on the series 2. If the new unit works out to be the same then I would probably go with the Tivo hd. They already feel slower compared to the series 2 on directv and my Windows 7 setup.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

bicker said:


> "Refreshed" versus "cost-reduced"... only time will tell.


given the advance of broadcom chips lately I think TiVo could do refrehsed and reduced cost at the same time. The TiVo HD used a fairly mature chip when it came out tha twas not a barn buster by any means


----------



## bicker

True, but I think a lot of folks won't consider something a "refresh" unless they personally perceive (feature) improvements (or features). Greater robustness and reliability, lower power consumption -- a lot of people simply aren't capable or willing to acknowledge these things as the substantial improvements that they are.


----------



## Southcross

bicker said:


> *Greater robustness and reliability, lower power consumption*


All qualities I'm looking for.... plus one, expandability... I'm hoping that with the announced EOL of the My DVR Expander, I hope it will support _any_ external device, whether it be eSATA or USB. In the end I don't care if its a Revised Series 3 or a Series 4... I just want to know: What, When, How much


----------



## innocentfreak

I believe if they did a refresh similar to what bicker mentions that it is true they would need to do something else also to get a positive respomse overall. I think if they didn't also go with a larger drive, even a 250gb or 320gb, they would be making a mistake.

Then again if they went with a better broadcom chip that just improved transfer speeds it would go a long way towards positive press.


----------



## Southcross

innocentfreak said:


> go with a larger drive, even a 250gb or 320gb, they would be making a mistake.
> 
> Then again if they went with a better broadcom chip that just improved transfer speeds


:up: :up: :up:

the costs of 320 and even 500gb drives is so marginally higher than a 160gb... retail is what $10?

what I would like to see as a Latest Generation some day is a HTPC "TiVO card" that has the TiVo processor, Vid-in/out, firmware, built in SATA controller, etc all on one board that you can drop into two slots (maybe either a second PCIe 1x card or a second plate meant specifically for inserting the cablecard/input) using a PCIe 16x slot... have a Windows based or a Linux based front end, with "unlimited" storage options... so basically the only "limits" to the HTPC you can build is your budget for CPU/MB/RAM/case and HD size(s)


----------



## theoryzero

My household is ready to pull the trigger on a TiVo...seems silly to get a low-capacity HD model at this point, when it is clear from the TiVo Premiere leak that something new is coming down the pipe.


----------



## orangeboy

theoryzero said:


> My household is ready to pull the trigger on a TiVo...seems silly to get a low-capacity HD model at this point, when it is clear from the TiVo Premiere leak that something new is coming down the pipe.


Eh. Another way to look at it is to take advantage of clearance prices (if any are to be found), and let the price of the Series4 drop. I may be a little gunshy concerning hardware, being an early adopter of the Series3 though


----------



## innocentfreak

Southcross said:


> :up: :up: :up:
> 
> the costs of 320 and even 500gb drives is so marginally higher than a 160gb... retail is what $10?
> 
> what I would like to see as a Latest Generation some day is a HTPC "TiVO card" that has the TiVo processor, Vid-in/out, firmware, built in SATA controller, etc all on one board that you can drop into two slots (maybe either a second PCIe 1x card or a second plate meant specifically for inserting the cablecard/input) using a PCIe 16x slot... have a Windows based or a Linux based front end, with "unlimited" storage options... so basically the only "limits" to the HTPC you can build is your budget for CPU/MB/RAM/case and HD size(s)


If Tivo was really serious about being a software solution, I would think they would have put more into liquid tv instead of it being a crap product.

Now with Ceton soon to offer a quad tuner for the HTPC, it could be viable if Tivo priced it accordingly and actually put effort into the product. For $5.00 or so a month I would consider using Tivo over Media Center. They would have no hardware costs to recoup.


----------



## richsadams

innocentfreak said:


> If Tivo was really serious about being a software solution, I would think they would have put more into liquid tv instead of it being a crap product.


Easy now...I have that "crap product" sitting on a bookshelf behind me as I type. I've no idea what I'm going to do with it (being that I use Mac's now) but for $35 brand new I couldn't pass it up. (1 year TiVo subscription and a tuner included!) I haven't cracked it open...might just keep the remote, or maybe someone from ebay might be interested...who knows? It's really too bad that it didn't live up to the hype though...you're right it could have been a great product...at least a good one anyway.


----------



## innocentfreak

richsadams said:


> Easy now...I have that "crap product" sitting on a bookshelf behind me as I type. I've no idea what I'm going to do with it (being that I use Mac's now) but for $35 brand new I couldn't pass it up. (1 year TiVo subscription and a tuner included!) I haven't cracked it open...might just keep the remote, or maybe someone from ebay might be interested...who knows? It's really too bad that it didn't live up to the hype though...you're right it could have been a great product...at least a good one anyway.


I am in the same boat. Mine is still in the box unopened . I ordered it just for the remote, ir and tuner which I still haven't used.

I tried the demo and it didn't last the day. I don't know how much of the Tivo software hooks into the broadcom chipset, but I wonder how feasible it would be to just port it over to the PC. With cable labs in the process of certifying the Ceton tuner and already certified the series 3, I can't imagine they would need to go through the process again since they already have DRM built in that has been approved and they would be using certified tuners.


----------



## classicsat

innocentfreak said:


> Actually I don't because I was with directv at the time


Remember the R10? That is the DirecTV TiVo equivalent of the 540 standalone.


----------



## Da Goon

classicsat said:


> Remember the R10? That is the DirecTV TiVo equivalent of the 540 standalone.


the ugly as f*ck version 

no pretty nightlight


----------



## nrc

bicker said:


> All indications, so far, is that what is coming out is not a Series 4, but just a third-generation Series 3.


What indications would that be? We can't determine anything about the internals of the Premiere from the leaked setup sheet and that's what will determine whether the new unit is a "Series 4".


----------



## Da Goon

nrc said:


> What indications would that be? We can't determine anything about the internals of the Premiere from the leaked setup sheet and that's what will determine whether the new unit is a "Series 4".


seriously

I could have farted more interesting details than the "leaked TiVo premiere" info

Holy Sh*t!! No S-video or phone jack!! Holy Sh*t!!

come on...


----------



## innocentfreak

classicsat said:


> Remember the R10? That is the DirecTV TiVo equivalent of the 540 standalone.


Ahh ok. I know that one lol. I didn't keep up on Tivo once I left for the Directivo versions. They just never offered anything to bring me back until the Sears clearance sales.


----------



## aaronwt

Da Goon said:


> seriously
> 
> I could have farted more interesting details than the "leaked TiVo premiere" info
> 
> Holy Sh*t!! No S-video or phone jack!! Holy Sh*t!!
> 
> come on...


If the leaked pictures are correct then the only info we need to know is the size of the hard drive. Otherwise, it's just a Series 3 with still more than is needed.

All I need is HDMI and and network connection. I don't usually touch analog.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

I think the days of high-end TiVos like the Series 3 are long gone. The TiVo Premiere is almost certainly a replacement for *both* the Series 2 and Series 3 so I think as far as TiVo is concerned they will consider it a Series 4.

While they are obviously catering to those who have embraced HDTV they did leave in just enough analog connections so as not to alienate anyone. The telephone jack is gone but I could see TiVo selling a USB adapter of some sort for those still using dial-up connections. Based on the back of the unit it seems clear there has been some cost cutting in order to simplify things. The TiVo Premiere will undoubtedly be "stripped down" but since so much time has gone by since the TiVo HD came out it should still perform better due to faster chipsets, larger hard drives, etc.

I am curious to see if they have made any improvements to the OTA tuner.


----------



## Dr_Diablo

bballcards said:


> Considering that it only accepts Multi-Stream CableCards, I'd say it would make no sense for it to be a single-tuner device (i.e. it just about HAS to be a dual-tuner model).


Personally, I was hoping Tivo would launch a unit that would record 4 channels, akin to AT&T


----------



## bicker

Southcross said:


> bicker said:
> 
> 
> 
> True, but I think a lot of folks won't consider something a "refresh" unless they personally perceive (feature) improvements (or features). Greater robustness and reliability, lower power consumption
> 
> 
> 
> All qualities I'm looking for.... plus one, expandability...
Click to expand...

Case in point. Why would you expect such a cost-reduced box to have any specific new features?

In some ways, I have to think that some folks are setting themselves up to be very disappointed.

Perhaps deliberately so that they have loads to complain about when the box is actually announced. ROTFL


----------



## magnus

Consider this.... why call it 'Premiere'?? If it's just going to be a refresh with no new features.


----------



## bicker

<<stunned look>>


----------



## orangeboy

aaronwt said:


> If the leaked pictures are correct then the only info we need to know is the size of the hard drive. Otherwise, it's just a Series 3 with still more than is needed.
> 
> All I need is HDMI and and network connection. I don't usually touch analog.


What is missing that you would visibly have to see to make it a Series4?


----------



## RoyK

magnus said:


> Consider this.... why call it 'Premiere'?? If it's just going to be a refresh with no new features.


You've never met a marketer, have you?


----------



## bicker

Indeed... I suppose I should have explained my <<stunned look>> response to magnus' message -- you've captured my reaction in words.


----------



## SullyND

RoyK said:


> You've never met a marketer, have you?


Right, and for all we know "Premeire" could simply be the branding for the Best Buy TiVos.


----------



## innocentfreak

bicker said:


> Case in point. Why would you expect such a cost-reduced box to have any specific new features?
> 
> In some ways, I have to think that some folks are setting themselves up to be very disappointed.
> 
> Perhaps deliberately so that they have loads to complain about when the box is actually announced. ROTFL


I expect to be disappointed only because it will be as most predict, but then Tivo has always been predictable when it came to new hardware.


----------



## bicker

Expecting to be disappointed means that your expectations are incorrect. Disappointment, by its very nature, should only be a surprise.


----------



## innocentfreak

bicker said:


> Expecting to be disappointed means that your expectations are incorrect. Disappointment, by its very nature, should only be a surprise.


But if you always expect the worst or the least and you continue to get what you expect can very easily be disappointing. Meeting basic expectations and not exceeding them is why I know I will be disaapointed.

At least I have ceton to keep me excited and now it looks like directv fans will have their new dvr this quarter to also be excited about.


----------



## reubanks

There seems to be a lot of arguing as to whether the Tivo Premier is a low end or high end unit. I will undoubtably be a low end unit.

Why?

Look at the "leaked instructions" again. It describes how to set up a Tivo Premier or PREMIER XL...

Randy


----------



## bicker

innocentfreak said:


> But if you always expect the worst or the least and you continue to get what you expect can very easily be disappointing. Meeting basic expectations and not exceeding them is why I know I will be disaapointed.


Oh gosh, I don't know what to say, except I'm sorry.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

reubanks said:


> There seems to be a lot of arguing as to whether the Tivo Premier is a low end or high end unit. I will undoubtably be a low end unit.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Look at the "leaked instructions" again. It describes how to set up a Tivo Premier or PREMIER XL...
> 
> Randy


Like the TiVo HD and TiVo HD XL the differences will likely be minor with the XL again referring to increased hard drive size. 250GB up from 160GB for the Premiere and still 1TB for the Premiere XL would be my guess. Why not more than 250GB for the Premiere when hard drive prices are so cheap? Remember, this is TiVo we are talking about.


----------



## innocentfreak

bicker said:


> Oh gosh, I don't know what to say, except I'm sorry.


lol I think you know what I mean. Has there been a Tivo product announcement that has ever exceeded expectations or what people predicted for months before? Maybe I am missing one but I can't think of one.


----------



## reubanks

True, but the HD XL isn't the "low end" Tivo. The HD is. 

It's like saying "The new Ford Pinto (Toyota Tercel/Chrysler K-Car/Datsun B210/etc.) will probably be a low end car. I'll wait till they come out with a better one!"

Randy


----------



## DancnDude

innocentfreak said:


> lol I think you know what I mean. Has there been a Tivo product announcement that has ever exceeded expectations or what people predicted for months before? Maybe I am missing one but I can't think of one.


Maybe the OLED screen the original Series 3 units had? Of course they just removed them not too long afterwards. I agree that most of TiVo's new products are predictable and safe.


----------



## bicker

innocentfreak said:


> lol I think you know what I mean.


I think so... you basically said that you routinely expect to receive better than what is reasonable to expect.


----------



## wmcbrine

TWinbrook46636 said:


> The TiVo Premiere is almost certainly a replacement for *both* the Series 2 and Series 3 so I think as far as TiVo is concerned they will consider it a Series 4.


I don't know where you get that. Judging by the back panel, the Premiere has no IR/serial interface, nor A/V inputs, so it can't replace the Series 2, in that (like the S3/HD) it can't control an external box. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if TiVo dropped the Series 2, but that doesn't make this a replacement.


----------



## tivohaydon

bicker said:


> I think so... you basically said that you routinely expect to receive better than what is reasonable to expect.


I know this pointless but... try this more exhaustive language for what he means:

"I expect that TiVo will not make significant improvements in the next TiVo unit release. Therefore I anticipate being disappointed in TiVo/the new model."

alternately...

"I will be disappointed in TiVo/the new model if the next TiVo unit does not offer significant improvements."

alternately...

etc etc etc

It wasn't that hard and not a contradiction. I'd love to see a graph of your post count Bicker. (X=days on tivocommunity, Y=cumulative post count)


----------



## bicker

tivohaydon said:


> I know this pointless but...


Evidently, my attempt to help you understand what I was pointing out was pointless.  Just never mind.


----------



## mp11

TWinbrook46636 said:


> I am curious to see if they have made any improvements to the OTA tuner.


What kind of OTA tuner improvements are you looking for?


----------



## innocentfreak

bicker said:


> I think so... you basically said that you routinely expect to receive better than what is reasonable to expect.


If that is how you took it, then I wasn't clear or my post was wrongly worded. I wouldn't be surprised if it was me though since I kept having issues replying on my phone.

I will not be disappointed with the Tivo premier if it is nothing more than a cost cutting measure and nearly identical to the Tivo HD minus what we already know has been removed. It is what I have come to expect from Tivo.

I think it is just disappointing that at least I if not the users on this board don't expect more from Tivo. A company who always meets expectations is great if those expectations are good. If the expectations seem to become more and more the minimum to get by and they never exceed those, then it disappoints me especially when it is a product I do like.

I would love to upgrade to new hardware. As some people mentioned in the engadgethd chat the other night, if Tivo had a 4 tuner box rumored or announced to be on the way I wouldn't be excited about the Ceton tuner. I like Media Center and will like it even more with 4 tuners, but I would rather give Tivo my money if I had the choice.


----------



## magnus

Does it really matter? You have no idea what they are going to be putting out in the future.

I'm only saying that 'Premiere' would make one think that it's not a refresh. It invokes the thought that it would be the best ever... possibly better than all the competition. Do I necessarily think that they are going to have anything more than a refresh (or faster hardware)?? ... No



bicker said:


> Indeed... I suppose I should have explained my <<stunned look>> response to magnus' message -- you've captured my reaction in words.


----------



## daveak

So much conjecture...

We know TiVo is working with Best Buy.

We know TiVo is working with DirecTV.

We know there has been an application to the FCC for a N wireless something.

We know that Tivo was looking to hire someone last year who could do something with flash support.

We know they have a much better looking (beta) NPL and To Do List online.

I would like to see a TiVo that was even more of a media player/ set top box with the full on TiVo DVR experience. It would make my life a little easier if it worked as a MCE extender or had more features in line with Popcorn or Boxee.

It is like using a 5 yr old computer if you are doing anything other than watching recorded programs. Well, it is.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

reubanks said:


> True, but the HD XL isn't the "low end" Tivo. The HD is.


In reality the TiVo HD and TiVo HD XL are the same core unit but the XL has a larger hard drive, comes with a glow remote and was paid to be THX certified. It's not like the XL has a faster processor or more tuners. That would be nice to see on the Premiere XL but I'm not counting on it.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

mp11 said:


> What kind of OTA tuner improvements are you looking for?


As I understand it the TiVo uses a 5th generation ATSC tuner whereas current technology is considered 6th or maybe 7th generation by now. What that implies _exactly_ I do not know but my Zenith DTT901 (6th generation) does a better job picking up stations and takes less than a minute to do a scan. The TiVo Series 3 takes about 20 minutes.


----------



## aaronwt

None of my TiVos has ever taken anywhere close to twenty minutes to do an OTA scan. Even with the dozens of channels it picks up.


----------



## rainwater

aaronwt said:


> None of my TiVos has ever taken anywhere close to twenty minutes to do an OTA scan. Even with the dozens of channels it picks up.


I've seen it take 10-15 minutes. Most of the time it gets stuck on one particular channel and hangs there for 10 minutes or so.


----------



## bicker

innocentfreak said:


> I think it is just disappointing that at least I if not the users on this board don't expect more from Tivo.





magnus said:


> Does it really matter?


Yes, it does matter. The issue here is expectations. The kind of expectations that innocentfreak is talking about he's misdirecting. Expecting better of the future are expectations that one should be placing on *themselves*, to be a positive force for good in society, doing their own part to foster innovation and progress, as a *general* trend over time. What he's doing, instead, is placing those expectations on others -- not just a *specific *company, but a rumored (not even actual) *specific *release from a *specific *company. He's imposing his own expectations for the future on something which, by all rights, can be have station-keeping objectives. Not everything society does should be earth-shatteringly new. There is a time to plant, and a time to reap that which is planted.



magnus said:


> I'm only saying that 'Premiere' would make one think that it's not a refresh. It invokes the thought that it would be the best ever... possibly better than all the competition.


First, the point is that, in the consumer marketplace, product names are never to be taken literally. Second, the literal interpretation of "premiere" is "the first public performance". It doesn't mean "best" in any way, shape or form.


----------



## vman41

bicker said:


> Second, the literal interpretation of "premiere" is "the first public performance". It doesn't mean "best" in any way, shape or form.


Premiere just means "first", which in depending on usage means "first performance", or "*first choice*". Product names can be nouns or adjectives.


----------



## RoyK

vman41 said:


> Premiere just means "first", which in depending on usage means "first performance", or "*first choice*". Product names can be nouns or adjectives.


When used in a product name 'Premiere' means ... nothing.


----------



## daveak

RoyK said:


> When used in a product name 'Premiere' means ... nothing.


Pretty much. Unless, of course, you are hoping it means the first in a series of better things to come.

A name can influence perception, what if they called it TiVo Beta? Or iTiVo? People in marketing are not (usually) lacking in intelligence, one part of assigning a name to a product is placing an expectation in a person's mind.

Sadly, many times the name and looks of the product do more to sell the product than features and performance. People are often more than willing to pay a premium for a name brand that seems cool to own. People in marketing know this and plan accordingly.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

I think I pointed out earlier in this or a similar thread that Marvel Comics has a line of wonderful hardcover collections, with oversized pages and usually collecting two or more volumes worth of comics at a go. When, a few years ago, they decided to add another line of much smaller, thinner, chintzier books, they labeled them "Marvel Premiere Editions." So regular hardcovers are the quality ones, and "premiere editions" are the inferior ones.


----------



## vstone

A decade or so back, some car manf. (AMC maybe) had a car called the 'Premier.' It wasn't.

3 or 4 tuners would be cool, but probably wouldn't sell enough units to pay for the R&D.


----------



## mp11

aaronwt said:


> None of my TiVos has ever taken anywhere close to twenty minutes to do an OTA scan. Even with the dozens of channels it picks up.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. My Tivo usually scans in 10 minutes. But 20? Hmmm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my Zenith DTT901 (6th generation) does a better job picking up stations and takes less than a minute to do a scan
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I disagree. The Tivo does a much better job and has better scan screen and scan list.
> And remember, a fast scanner doesnt necessarily mean a thorough scanner.
Click to expand...


----------



## theoryzero

vman41 said:


> Premiere just means "first", which in depending on usage means "first performance", or "*first choice*". Product names can be nouns or adjectives.


Or, released on the 1st? As in February 1st?  Wishful thinking...


----------



## reubanks

Better than April 1st.


----------



## Jonathan_S

reubanks said:


> Better than April 1st.


Nah, April 1st sounds about right. (Hmm, actually that is the begining of Q2 so maybe it's not such a foolish idea)


----------



## TWinbrook46636

mp11 said:


> I agree. My Tivo usually scans in 10 minutes. But 20? Hmmm


Mine has never scanned that fast. Mine takes around 20 minutes. Sometimes longer. I've been experimenting with different antennas so I've been doing a lot of scans. My Zenith DTT901 picks up 2 additional channels and scans in about a minute. Huge difference. There is room for improvement.


----------



## daveak

All this discussion about scanning - How much does it really matter? How often are you going to be scanning for channels?


----------



## mp11

daveak said:


> All this discussion about scanning - How much does it really matter? How often are you going to be scanning for channels?
> 
> 
> 
> Under normal circumstances, not often. But for DXers...very often.
Click to expand...


----------



## TWinbrook46636

daveak said:


> All this discussion about scanning - How much does it really matter? How often are you going to be scanning for channels?


In my area stations are constantly adding more subchannels, low power stations are going digital (they were exempt from the deadline) or switching frequencies and a major network just recently switched due to coverage issues. In any event a $40 tuner box shouldn't best a TiVo in the number of channels it receives or how fast it scans.

So back to the original point... I'm curious to see if they have improved the tuner for the TiVo Premiere.


----------



## kettledrum

b_scott said:


> U-Verse has 4-tuner boxes with MRV. There's no way tuners are going down - in fact, I see no reason for them not to at least have 3.


Only 2 simultaneous HD streams are allowed. That could be a deal breaker for many people. The 3rd HD stream is close to appearing though I believe. Although with AT&T you never know.


----------



## kiwiquest

kettledrum said:


> Only 2 simultaneous HD streams are allowed. That oculd be a deal breaker for many people. The 3rd HD stream is close to appearing though I believe. Although with AT&T you never know.


The third HD stream should be available with Uverse in February


----------



## dbilling

Tivo HD boxes have been unavailable from tivo.com for about a week... web site says "out of stock". Perhaps this is a sign that a next generation box is imminent?

HD XL boxes are still available, however.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

dbilling said:


> Tivo HD boxes have been unavailable from tivo.com for about a week... web site says "out of stock". Perhaps this is a sign that a next generation box is imminent?
> 
> HD XL boxes are still available, however.


or they just see no reason to sell a less than 1 TB size


----------



## b_scott

yeah, original HD's will be replaced with the Premiere.


----------



## innocentfreak

ZeoTiVo said:


> or they just see no reason to sell a less than 1 TB size


I can't imagine they would try to stick with a 499 box though. Depending on how much info they get back from retailers like remaining stock numbers, they may just be trying to eliminate as much stock out there as possible before rolling out the new unit.

Best Buy is also backordered online and in my area only one store has any in stock.

EDIT: I also wonder though could this be just them waiting for a fix from WD. We seem to see more people with XLs having issues with their units and displaying some of the soft reboot problems we have seen with drive upgrades on the new drives.


----------



## daveak

innocentfreak said:


> EDIT: I also wonder though could this be just them waiting for a fix from WD. We seem to see more people with XLs having issues with their units and displaying some of the soft reboot problems we have seen with drive upgrades on the new drives.


Or both?


----------



## Jonathan_S

Just an FYI.
In this [thread=442176]thread[/thread], 'Interesting new numbers', wmcbrine reports that the logs for his (HME based?) game show connections from some TiVo that's reporting a new TSN prefix, platform, and SW versions. (Likely meaning both a new or updated hardware and software platform)
Based on its IP address it's likely connecting from somewhere in or around TiVo's HQ.

Just one more indication that something new could be nearing completion.


----------



## Sapphire

vstone said:


> A decade or so back, some car manf. (AMC maybe) had a car called the 'Premier.' It wasn't.
> 
> 3 or 4 tuners would be cool, but probably wouldn't sell enough units to pay for the R&D.


Not to mention 4 tuners would require 2 (or 4) tuning resolvers with some providers who do SDV.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

innocentfreak said:


> I can't imagine they would try to stick with a 499 box though.


yep. They would have to bring the price down as well on anything new.
Still 1 TB is a good selling point to someone who wants a DVR but does not want to open it up.

Since I can get a drive for around 100$ and do it myself in a couple of hours and also have a backup drive by putting the original on the shelf then 100$ more is already somewhat over my value point for adding in a 1 TB. So the new box would have to _retail_ in the $350 area to interest me price wise


----------



## baijumehta

kiwiquest said:


> The third HD stream should be available with Uverse in February


I ordered Uverse, and they said they could only deliver 1 HD stream because I was too far away. I told them no thanks.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

A handful of tech sites are starting to follow crunchgear's lead in hypothesizing that the lack of THD stock could mean a new model is coming... as has been discussed here for a few days.

(shrug) Could be just a guess. But I hope so.


----------



## moyekj

Raj said:


> Not to mention 4 tuners would require 2 (or 4) tuning resolvers with some providers who do SDV.


 2 Cisco TAs for Cisco headends but only 1 Moto TA needed for Motorola headends.


----------



## innocentfreak

yeah its funny since we have been discussing it for a week or so. I know it popped up in the series 3 forums early on.

Here is the first time I read about it.


----------



## bicker

And if the implication is true, then it means we can look for the new model to be a replacement for the TiVo HD (i.e., more likely a low-end model) than some super-premium new model. Remember that they sold S2 boxes for quite a long time after the S3 came out.


----------



## daveak

And look at the current price on Amazon for an esata 1tb extender, $569.99 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...ectronics&qid=1265304722&sr=8-5&condition=new

I am sure that must be a mistake, right? I've got one to sell for less than that...


----------



## schwinn

Sell it quick, then, while the getting's good!


----------



## rainwater

daveak said:


> And look at the current price on Amazon for an esata 1tb extender, $569.99
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...ectronics&qid=1265304722&sr=8-5&condition=new
> 
> I am sure that must be a mistake, right? I've got one to sell for less than that...


That isn't an Amazon price. Retailers on Amazon raise prices for hard to find stock. It's pretty common for Amazon marketplace partners to do this to take advantage of low stock items.


----------



## Lannister80

So now the TiVo HD has been out of stock on TiVo.com for the last few says. All their refurbs have been cleaned out as well.

TiVo Premiere launch imminent?


----------



## LoadStar

Lannister80 said:


> So now the TiVo HD has been out of stock on TiVo.com for the last few says. All their refurbs have been cleaned out as well.
> 
> TiVo Premiere launch imminent?


One would hope... either that, or they are just REALLY bad at supply chain management. One of the two.


----------



## Anthony GT

Lannister80 said:


> So now the TiVo HD has been out of stock on TiVo.com for the last few says. All their refurbs have been cleaned out as well.
> 
> TiVo Premiere launch imminent?


Well, I wish they would either release the new unit or bring back some stock of HD TiVos for the upgrade program. I'm in need of 2 new units and now I'm in limbo. :down:


----------



## Len McRiddles

Anthony GT said:


> Well, I wish they would either release the new unit or bring back some stock of HD TiVos for the upgrade program. I'm in need of 2 new units and now I'm in limbo. :down:


40 of them in stock at Amazon right now.


----------



## innocentfreak

Now also it looks like Tivo has dropped the Series 2 refurb units to $70.


----------



## petew

innocentfreak said:


> Now also it looks like Tivo has dropped the Series 2 refurb units to $70.


I've been wondering if Tivo will come out with a "Tivo Standard" entry level box perhaps with ATSC/Clear QAM only, no cable card slot and no HD output as a replacement for the S2. The Tivo Premiere name then makes sense as the higher priced HD box.


----------



## wmcbrine

petew said:


> I've been wondering if Tivo will come out with a "Tivo Standard" entry level box perhaps with ATSC/Clear QAM only, no cable card slot and no HD output as a replacement for the S2.


No way. They don't even support clear QAM now (can't blame them, since the cable companies like to screw around with the mappings), and standard definition is on the way out.

"TiVo Premiere" does kind of suggest the existence of something lesser, but I have a hard time imagining what they could sensibly ditch, and I definitely don't foresee anything with those specs. The implied "lesser" units could just be their previous models -- i.e., "This is the best TiVo yet!".


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

If it interests anybody, at the moment Amazon doesn't appear to have the XL in stock anymore. Only other sellers are shown.


----------



## moonscape

Anthony GT said:


> Well, I wish they would either release the new unit or bring back some stock of HD TiVos for the upgrade program. I'm in need of 2 new units and now I'm in limbo. :down:


Same here, except I don't want to buy an S3 with the new release on the horizon. I was talking to customer service about a unit that has been stolen, and he volunteered rumor has it a new unit will be released shortly. What's 'shortly' I asked? Within the next couple of months, he answered.

Couple of months?! But then, they're not known for their accuracy on these things (and wouldn't be more specific even if they knew.)


----------



## innocentfreak

I wonder how much of this was planned on TiVo's part. Based off how quickly everyone has gone out of stock, it would seem they didn't have much stock remaining out there or they took it back. If the new unit is/was delayed though, I don't see this helping them that much if it is still several months before there is a model out there you can buy. I almost think you would be better off releasing a new unit while there is still a very small amount of stock out there with Amazon and Best Buy. Look at how quickly Sears sold out of the clearance units. Then again we don't know the estimated price of the Premiere.


----------



## raianoat

innocentfreak said:


> Now also it looks like Tivo has dropped the Series 2 refurb units to $70.


I could be wrong however, haven't refurb S2s been $79.99 for quite some time now?


----------



## innocentfreak

I thought they were still around $99-149 previously since it is the DT model. Maybe the basic series 2 was $79 or I just fell for the $70 off listing.

EDIT: Looking at Tivo.com I may be thinking of the new one since they list the new Series 2 DT for 149.99.

It also appears Tivo now has stock of the Tivo HD. Best Buy still shows oos. Amazon dropped the HD XL to $399.99.


----------



## melissa12345

no tivo still doesnt have HD in stock...rep told go to best buys..


----------



## nrc

I wonder if Tivo planned their stock leading up to a new announcement based on current sales trends, and then had an increase in sales as people who were waiting to see if there would be a CES announcement stopped putting off a purchase.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Oops, Amazon has the XL again. Off-and-on it goes. (shrug)


----------



## innocentfreak

nrc said:


> I wonder if Tivo planned their stock leading up to a new announcement based on current sales trends, and then had an increase in sales as people who were waiting to see if there would be a CES announcement stopped putting off a purchase.


The price drop might have helped some but I can't imagine much. There was the WD issue that from what I read on the TiVo forums they rolled out a patch that addressed it so that might partially be it if they cut back until they had a fix. They may have just planned poorly expecting to have a new unit ready to go and it turned out it isn't.

They always seem to have a June or September release date from what I remember, but I doubt they would want to be out of stock for 5-6 months. Also the $99 lifetime upgrade special expires 4/30/10 so maybe they are planning on releasing after they lock some more people into lifetime.


----------



## classicsat

petew said:


> I've been wondering if Tivo will come out with a "Tivo Standard" entry level box perhaps with ATSC/Clear QAM only, no cable card slot and no HD output as a replacement for the S2. The Tivo Premiere name then makes sense as the higher priced HD box.


They could, but it would have Cablecard.

It could only lack HDMI, Component, digital audio, and eSATA.


----------



## mfogarty5

I thought the TiVo Premier was going to be a Best Buy exclusive and that TiVo was getting out of the retail business. From what I read on these forums TiVo should have gotten out of the direct to consumer business years ago. 

If there is no Best Buy near you, then you can order it from their website.

I also figured that TiVo and BestBuy would use Geek Squad to install the CableCards into the TiVo Premiers.

It's a win for TiVo because they get out of the retail business and can focus on software(ads and tracking viewing habits. ). Its a win for BestBuy because they get exclusive rights to the product and get work for their Geek Squad group. Its a win for cable companies who get to reduce truck rolls related to installers incapable of implementing CableCards. Its a win for consumers because Geek Squad employees trained on CableCards are less frustrating than cable company employees who aren't.

It makes sense too much sense which means that it will never happen.


----------



## innocentfreak

mfogarty5 said:


> I thought the TiVo Premier was going to be a Best Buy exclusive and that TiVo was getting out of the retail business. From what I read on these forums TiVo should have gotten out of the direct to consumer business years ago.


No one knows if the TiVo Premier is the Best Buy TiVo. It very well could be.



mfogarty5 said:


> I also figured that TiVo and BestBuy would use Geek Squad to install the CableCards into the TiVo Premiers.


Cable Cards come from the cable companies so this wouldn't be an option. Very few companies allow self installs.



mfogarty5 said:


> It's a win for TiVo because they get out of the retail business and can focus on software(ads and tracking viewing habits. ). Its a win for BestBuy because they get exclusive rights to the product and get work for their Geek Squad group. Its a win for cable companies who get to reduce truck rolls related to installers incapable of implementing CableCards. Its a win for consumers because Geek Squad employees trained on CableCards are less frustrating than cable company employees who aren't.


TiVo wants out of the hardware business not necessarily the retail business since that is where they lose money since they can't get their costs down because they aren't a company like Motorola or S.A. who is building millions of boxes. I don't want a Geek Squad member going anywhere near my stuff.


----------



## jmpage2

mfogarty5 said:


> I thought the TiVo Premier was going to be a Best Buy exclusive and that TiVo was getting out of the retail business. From what I read on these forums TiVo should have gotten out of the direct to consumer business years ago.
> 
> If there is no Best Buy near you, then you can order it from their website.
> 
> I also figured that TiVo and BestBuy would use Geek Squad to install the CableCards into the TiVo Premiers.
> 
> It's a win for TiVo because they get out of the retail business and can focus on software(ads and tracking viewing habits. ). Its a win for BestBuy because they get exclusive rights to the product and get work for their Geek Squad group. Its a win for cable companies who get to reduce truck rolls related to installers incapable of implementing CableCards. Its a win for consumers because Geek Squad employees trained on CableCards are less frustrating than cable company employees who aren't.
> 
> It makes sense too much sense which means that it will never happen.


Geek Squad installs are a win for the consumer? Please. 

TiVo probably sells tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of units at retail every quarter (Amazon probably sells a massive percentage of ALL TiVo units sold every month). If they really think that they can recoup these sales through direct partnerships, etc, then we as consumers are screwed because it means we are headed towards a TiVo that you can only get from your local cable/telco/sat company.

I prefer to buy/own my own boxes which is the entire purpose of Cablecard. I like upgrading my own hard drives on my TiVo hardware.

I love having an interface that isn't spammed with advertising from the local Cable Co.

Moving away from retail will be a huge loss for consumers since all they will "gain" is no up front cost for the hardware.


----------



## moyekj

Personally I refuse to buy anything from "Best Buy" (or most other brick & mortar electronics stores) just on principle, especially those that push such ridiculous items as "Monster" cables. Much better deals can be found usually from Amazon or other online retailers.


----------



## aaronwt

mfogarty5 said:


> I thought the TiVo Premier was going to be a Best Buy exclusive and that TiVo was getting out of the retail business. From what I read on these forums TiVo should have gotten out of the direct to consumer business years ago.
> 
> If there is no Best Buy near you, then you can order it from their website.
> 
> I also figured that TiVo and BestBuy would use Geek Squad to install the CableCards into the TiVo Premiers.
> 
> It's a win for TiVo because they get out of the retail business and can focus on software(ads and tracking viewing habits. ). Its a win for BestBuy because they get exclusive rights to the product and get work for their Geek Squad group. Its a win for cable companies who get to reduce truck rolls related to installers incapable of implementing CableCards. Its a win for consumers because Geek Squad employees trained on CableCards are less frustrating than cable company employees who aren't.
> 
> It makes sense too much sense which means that it will never happen.


A trained Geeksquad employee? My experience with them has been different. They have half assed calibrations, don't know thir way around a PC, and can't even install a TV properly.
The main reason some of my purchases have been from BestBuy is for the extended warranty.


----------



## theoryzero

March 2nd?

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-02/tivo-schedules-nyc-event-for-march-2nd/


----------



## MickeS

theoryzero said:


> March 2nd?
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-02/tivo-schedules-nyc-event-for-march-2nd/


They're setting the bar pretty high with that invitation...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

aaronwt said:


> A trained Geeksquad employee? My experience with them has been different. They have half assed calibrations, don't know thir way around a PC, and can't even install a TV properly.
> The main reason some of my purchases have been from BestBuy is for the extended warranty.


hey I studied hard in school, took a rigorous college major and then hoped and prayed Best Buy would accept me as an installer of electronic stuff. Oh wait... that was my summer job for like 2 weeks until something better came along.


----------



## innocentfreak

yeah they are. Maybe a new ui? With the wording it definitely sound like they are planning on changing something.


----------



## wildcardd

Wonder if they are going to do a "Sling" type thing with your box? Would that even be possible?


----------



## aaronwt

theoryzero said:


> March 2nd?
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-02/tivo-schedules-nyc-event-for-march-2nd/


I knew I should have sold two of my TiVoHD boxes last month.


----------



## innocentfreak

Might actually be a good time to buy one cheap with lifetime


----------



## qz3fwd

And i just hooked up my 3'rd brand new S3 from ebay last night and activated it today!
I do like the looks of the S3 compared to the HD/XL.

But if the new Tivo has a faster CPU, fast MRV, snappy HD GUI, and can stream m2ts files from network storage, I'll dip my toes and take one for a test drive around the block.
Worst case is I return it to Best Buy for a full refund.


----------



## johnm4

Finally an end to the lack of news I hope. My 2nd HDTV is sitting there waiting and I refuse to dump money into a 2nd TivoHD


----------



## DocNo

moyekj said:


> Perhaps another protocol such as USB 4.0


gawd no - hopefully USB 3 will be the last of that horrible standard. If you are going to wish for anything, wish for Light Peak.


----------



## wmcbrine

DocNo said:


> gawd no - hopefully USB 3 will be the last of that horrible standard. If you are going to wish for anything, wish for Light Peak.


USB delivers power. I don't see how an optical link can do that (or, failing to do that, how it can substitute for USB).


----------



## moyekj

DocNo said:


> gawd no - hopefully USB 3 will be the last of that horrible standard. If you are going to wish for anything, wish for Light Peak.


 Light Peak was initially known as USB 4.0. (I'm familiar with it since company I work for is involved with designing chips related to Light Peak).


----------



## reubanks

I stopped by to see what kind of stock they had and the prices for the HDXL. The HD was on closeout ($249 and 0 in stock) and the HDXL was priced at $499 (2 in stock). I pulled one of the HDXLs and went to get a price check.

The sales drone checked and said it was indeed $499. I mentioned that I heard that it was being closed out at $369 (from reading the forum) and he said he didn't see that in the computer, but that it made sense *what with the new model coming out.*
I asked what he had heard, but he went all "deer in the headlights" (complete with a "What am I saying" look on his face) and said he didn't know.

Hmm, I guess I'll have to visit some other BB stores in the area and chat up the sales types! I'll keep you all informed as to what I do or don't find out...

Randy


----------



## steve614

Oops!


----------



## richsadams

reubanks said:


> ...but that it made sense *what with the new model coming out.*


From July '09...

TiVo and Best Buy alliance to yield co-branded DVR, TiVo software on Insignia and Dynex TVs

Tom Rogers and IIRC other articles put the release as early 2010 so the timing is about right. Nice to know the BB sales force is being kept up to date.  Wonder if it'll be the "Premiere" or something else?


----------



## reubanks

Rich,

I remember reading about this, but if the generic salesdrones have heard something through official channels then something is coming "REAL SOON NOW".

<pacing back and forth while muttering to myself.>


----------



## bicker

And the dates being thrown around all seem to be the first week of March.


----------



## sdzc

richsadams said:


> From July '09...
> 
> TiVo and Best Buy alliance to yield co-branded DVR, TiVo software on Insignia and Dynex TVs
> 
> Tom Rogers and IIRC other articles put the release as early 2010 so the timing is about right. Nice to know the BB sales force is being kept up to date.  Wonder if it'll be the "Premiere" or something else?


I seriously hope that a "partnership" with Best Buy is not the big moment for Tivo.

If it is, what a letdown.


----------



## bicker

So let me get this straight: TiVo announces two things they're planning on doing. And somehow you took that and developed an expectation that they were going to be providing *something else *-- an expectation so strong that you actually would have an emotional reaction, a "letdown", if they don't provide you something more than what they've been telling us they're going to be providing.

That's remarkable.

Utterly remarkable.


----------



## innocentfreak

While I agree with you Bicker, TiVo really set themselves up with the line "Inventing the DVR was just the warm-up." 

I just see it being tough to live up to their own hype at this point.


----------



## bicker

If you're going to judge what they release based on your preconceived notions of what you want them to announce, then you're setting yourself up to be disappointed.

By the way, it makes more sense to take that phrase as an indication that the big thing they're going to release is *not *a DVR.


----------



## innocentfreak

I think calling something as significant as a DVR a warm-up means whatever they are going to announce they are expecting to be bigger. At least that is how I and many others are interpreting it. The problem is what could be bigger and something people are going to want? 

It would be the same as if Apple had used the Ipod was just a warm-up for the Ipad announcement.


----------



## Luckyp79

so they take the Best Buy brand TV's and stick a TiVo inside of it. Its more then just a DVR. Even that would trickle down to us in the form of new software.
I can't see them doing something cool like that and not bring out a new UI. That interface would then trickle down to the boxes. The current UI is boring and clunky.

Nope I am with everyone else these days. TiVo hyped us up with their tag line for this event. They hyped us up and its up to them to deliver.


----------



## MickeS

bicker said:


> By the way, it makes more sense to take that phrase as an indication that the big thing they're going to release is *not *a DVR.


Agreed.


----------



## innocentfreak

The only problem with not releasing a DVR then is they will only have a 399+ HD XL since the HDs are pretty much gone from retailers and Tivo.


----------



## wmcbrine

innocentfreak said:


> It would be the same as if Apple had used the Ipod was just a warm-up for the Ipad announcement.


In retrospect, they could've said the iPod was just a warm up for the iPhone, and I think that would've been a fair statement, though it would've seemed insane at the time.


----------



## innocentfreak

I would agree with you there. I think upon the announcement people would have been impressed even more than most were if it had been kept as quiet as TiVo has kept this. 

At this point only a select few who obviously aren't talking know what TiVo is set to announce. Even the tipsters haven't said a word since which possibly means they have said all they know and there is really nothing else other than the fine print or TiVo has something that only a select few know about and has kept its cards very close to its chest. Obviously it could be a mix of the two but for it to be something big like a Hulu service or even Hulu I think we would have seen leaks about deals here and there.


----------



## wublet

(My apologies if anyone has already suggested anything along the following lines; haven't got time to read the 316 posts before me.)

Given the name "Premiere", and a promise of some dramatic Really Big Thing, could they be planning some sort of over-the-net service to bring first-run movies into the home on an on-demand/PPV basis? I mean films still being shown in theaters. Given studio attitudes, that would sort of necessarily imply a secure media path (no analog out, no TTG etc.), at least for the first-run films. The time is probably right for some offering along those lines, and TiVo's control over the box makes them well situated to pull it off. Further, it could also give TiVo Inc. participation in the content revenue stream if they're provisioning the server infrastructure and processing the viewer payments for the first-run content -- the Amazons and Netflixes of the world may not be as well positioned to take a cut there.


----------



## DaGhost

See now I am wondering if they will deliver network based storage. Your shows are recorded on their servers and the TiVo Premiere box delivers the video to your non Best Buy television. BB branded tvs will get that capability built-in.

That's my gut feel.

DaGhost


----------



## innocentfreak

One issue though is they would need some major backend hardware since IIRC they would have to record a copy for every single person requesting a recording of a show. I believe they would also be required to offer a copy as if you recorded it off your local channel also.


----------



## sdzc

bicker said:


> So let me get this straight: TiVo announces two things they're planning on doing. And somehow you took that and developed an expectation that they were going to be providing *something else *-- an expectation so strong that you actually would have an emotional reaction, a "letdown", if they don't provide you something more than what they've been telling us they're going to be providing.
> 
> That's remarkable.
> 
> Utterly remarkable.


Um, No... Simmer down.

I feel that if Tivo is going out on a limb to say that "Inventing the DVR was just a warmup" that they better have more to offer than just a partnership with BB. Does that opinion seem "Utterly remarkable"?

They have done a damn good job with the DVR, so yes, my expectations (and anticipation) are kind of high when they willingly advertise as they have with this.


----------



## Eisenherz

Ran across this info about pricing, not sure if this is genuine or not.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/25/tivo-premiere-xl-dvrs-show-up-in-best-buy-systems-for-299-49/


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## richsadams

Eisenherz said:


> Ran across this info about pricing, not sure if this is genuine or not. http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/25/tivo-premiere-xl-dvrs-show-up-in-best-buy-systems-for-299-49/


Thanks for posting. Hopefully the product dimensions (6"H x 12.6"L x 19.6"W) are for the box it comes in. (TiVo HD's are about 3"H x 12.5"L x 15.6"W) Interesting claim that it "supports 1080i and *1080p*". New 1080p GUI? The new name, "TiVo Premiere XL HD" (TCD74800) flips the current moniker "TiVo HD XL". It would appear to still have a 1TB hard drive, but the the "standard" Premiere HD records up to 45 hours of HD. TCD746320 = 320GB HDD? The parts/labor warranty is 90/90 days. It's 90 days free labor / 1 year parts exchange currently. Hmmm...


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## Stormspace

TiVo setting itself up as an internet cable company would be cool. Pay them and stream any show to your Tivo. It would certainly make it more difficult for all those cable internet providers that want to impose caps.


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## wublet

It would certainly get around the SDV problem.

Pretty rich if your ISP used to be your cableco.


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## DocNo

wmcbrine said:


> USB delivers power. I don't see how an optical link can do that (or, failing to do that, how it can substitute for USB).


If you looked at the specification instead of speculating baselessly you would see that it's pretty easy to combine copper with optical fibre to overcome such issues


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## shady

wublet said:


> (My apologies if anyone has already suggested anything along the following lines; haven't got time to read the 316 posts before me.)
> 
> Given the name "Premiere", and a promise of some dramatic Really Big Thing, could they be planning some sort of over-the-net service to bring first-run movies into the home on an on-demand/PPV basis? I mean films still being shown in theaters. Given studio attitudes, that would sort of necessarily imply a secure media path (no analog out, no TTG etc.), at least for the first-run films. The time is probably right for some offering along those lines, and TiVo's control over the box makes them well situated to pull it off. Further, it could also give TiVo Inc. participation in the content revenue stream if they're provisioning the server infrastructure and processing the viewer payments for the first-run content -- the Amazons and Netflixes of the world may not be as well positioned to take a cut there.


That's an interesting thought. It would certainly give meaning to the name of the box.
I can't remember from the leaked diagrams of the box. Does it still have analog outputs? If so, can they be turned off by software? otherwise, I don't see that happening due to piracy issues.


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## Stormspace

Anyone done the math to see how the 8.31/month would work out as far as a length of commitment?


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## theoryzero

$8.31 a month is about $100 a year, so it seems like the same $299 for three years plan that is currently available.


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## DancnDude

Stormspace said:


> Anyone done the math to see how the 8.31/month would work out as far as a length of commitment?


If I had to guess, it'd be 3 years monthly since 36 months @ $8.31 is right around $299.

I'd also expect to still have the option of purchasing lifetime for $399, although all up-front.


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## wmcbrine

DocNo said:


> If you looked at the specification instead of speculating baselessly you would see that it's pretty easy to combine copper with optical fibre to overcome such issues


I don't know where one might find the spec, but what I read is that "Intel said it's working on bundling the optical fiber with copper wire so Light Peak can be used to power devices plugged into the PC," implying that it's not yet part of the spec. It looks interesting, though.


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## innocentfreak

I don't know if anyone has mentioned, but I would not be surprised if the 90/90 warranty is correct since TiVo now offers the extended warranty option. We all know extended warranties are money makers for places like Best Buy so it would work out as another revenue source for TiVo and allow them to keep hardware at a lower price. 

They may also get hardware at a cheaper cost since it comes with less warranty which you will occasionally see with OEM harddrives.


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## wublet

shady said:


> That's an interesting thought. It would certainly give meaning to the name of the box.
> I can't remember from the leaked diagrams of the box. Does it still have analog outputs? If so, can they be turned off by software? otherwise, I don't see that happening due to piracy issues.


According to the leaked quick-install guide photo, there are both HDMI and analog outputs. No way of knowing yet whether the analog outs are defeated while playing protected content, but that ain't rocket science. DVD players have been defeating unprotected (no HDCP) DVI outputs for protected (or foreign region) content for many years now.


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## McCarron

I guess the Premiere is the Series 4 after all.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/dnptivo-premiere-and-premiere-xl-usher-in-a-brand-new-interface/


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## lessd

McCarron said:


> I guess the Premiere is the Series 4 after all.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/dnptivo-premiere-and-premiere-xl-usher-in-a-brand-new-interface/


Has TiVo itself ever called this new box a Series 4, I have not read all the TiVo news releases but so far I have not seen that TiVo has called this new box a Series 4. I know some other news originations have said the new Series 4 will be called the Premiere, but that may their interruption.


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## Adam1115

<Yawn> The slide out keyboard is slightly cool, but it's still just a cablecard TiVo that can't do ondemand or SDV without an adapter.

Lame.


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## SullyND

Adam1115 said:


> <Yawn> The slide out keyboard is slightly cool, but it's still just a cablecard TiVo that can't do ondemand or SDV without an adapter.


There is no way they could have done anything about OnDemand or SDV.


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## MichaelK

Adam1115 said:


> <Yawn> The slide out keyboard is slightly cool, but it's still just a cablecard TiVo that can't do ondemand or SDV without an adapter.
> 
> Lame.


on of the engadget screen caps has a comcast on demand icon. Could be just tivo's dream or what could happen. But comcast and tivo are buddies...


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## MrMike1876

what about tivo letting us upgrade the operating system on existing series 3 HD Tivos to this new interface - would anyone think that is a possiblity instead of buying the whole unit. my tivo will break eventually - then I will bite the bullet - but for now...i dont see spending 700 bucks for a disk usage meter - the one feature that is missing from series 3 that should have been there years ago..


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## bicker

I suspect that the new UI is relying on the capacity of new hardware components in the Premiere.


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## slowbiscuit

So what I'm wondering is, will the series3 get Comcast OnDemand? I understand not getting the new UI, at least I know I wouldn't want it based on the engadget video. Dog slow and ripe for forced video ads.


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## bkdtv

slowbiscuit said:


> So what I'm wondering is, will the series3 get Comcast OnDemand? I understand not getting the new UI, at least I know I wouldn't want it based on the engadget video. Dog slow and ripe for forced video ads.


This has been mentioned few times, but it probably bears repeating -- the TiVo Premiere retains the current user interface as an option.


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## jmpage2

slowbiscuit said:


> So what I'm wondering is, will the series3 get Comcast OnDemand? I understand not getting the new UI, at least I know I wouldn't want it based on the engadget video. Dog slow and ripe for forced video ads.


There's no way for the new Series-4 box to do on Demand unless a provider partners with TiVo to specifically do it over the Internet.

With no cable modem/tru-2-way functionality in the box itself it is impossible for the TiVo to access the "on demand" features that your cable box accesses.


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## slowbiscuit

Uh yeah, that's what the Seachange deal was all about - cable VOD via the net. Didn't you see the 'Comcast OnDemand' icon in the TP pics?


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## MichaelK

jmpage2 said:


> There's no way for the new Series-4 box to do on Demand unless a provider partners with TiVo to specifically do it over the Internet.
> 
> With no cable modem/tru-2-way functionality in the box itself it is impossible for the TiVo to access the "on demand" features that your cable box accesses.


the only "it" required over the internet is the back channel communication, and tivo already worked that out with seachange and will use it on the RCN box which is apparently using the premiere hardware.

So it's totally possible the premiere hardware will access the "on demand" feature of leased cable box. The question is will it only ever be available on RCN leased boxes, will store bought premiers work on RCN, and will anyone besides RCN inplement it.

Engadget has some ui shots with a menu item that shows 'cable video on demand' along side amazon video on demand and blockbuster video on demand. Could just be there for RCN. But they have a shot with a widget/icon/app/favorite with the logo for comcast's video on demand- could be just tivo's wishful thinking.


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## jmpage2

slowbiscuit said:


> Uh yeah, that's what the Seachange deal was all about - cable VOD via the net. Didn't you see the 'Comcast OnDemand' icon in the TP pics?


It is highly likely that such a thing would come to Comcast branded/provided TiVo boxes.

I am skeptical that we will see on demand for Comcast with the Premiere as a standalone box.


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## schwinn

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/03/oops-tivo-premiere-wont-have-comcast-on-demand/


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## Dr_Diablo

you plans to get one?


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