# It woudve made more sense for DTV to keep TIVO



## Daytona24 (Jun 8, 2005)

I know this has been beaten to death but while I realize that DTV wants to maintain and benefit from its own products it would have made more sense for them to develop a relationship with TIVO at this point. WHY? well its simple in my opinion DTV is years behind cable compeition. A year ago I went to DTV becuause of crappy cable, and while my analog cable has not improved by leaps and bounds in a year my cable co added a TON of HD channels and all local HD stations plus all premiums in HD and Video on Demand. Sure they use SA8300HD DVR's but there is also hope for me to get a TIVO again someday as Comcast is taking over in May.

What does DTV have to show? Powerpoint slides that show there plans for the next two years, No solid info on when I may get my HD locals via satellite, A buggy DVR, A new lease plan, Higher rates, and a two year commitment if I want a second DVR, not to mention HD - LITE.

DTV shoudlve just unlocked all the features of the TIVO and updated the HD -TIVO and did the same, I would at least have kept them for that stuff.

I know it can be argued that you can unlock the TIVO's by hacking them and you can get HD locals with an antenna but I think we've come too far to have to climb up on our roofs to get cable and have to hack things we buy to get them to do what the company says we shoudnt.

Its too bad.


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## alexcue (Apr 1, 2000)

you're preaching to the choir!


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## PDubs (Oct 5, 2004)

Too bad indeed.


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## Hersheytx (Feb 15, 2003)

I am not sure it was ever officially published, but I was under the impression that Murdoch tried to purchase TIVO. TIVO decided it was not in their best interest to be bought for such a small sum and that was the beginnning of the end.


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## Daytona24 (Jun 8, 2005)

Then thats too bad as well. I like TIVO but mainly becuase the DTV TIVO's are dual tuner, and thats something the TIVO's are lacking which in this day and age is crazy. I realize these series 3's are supposed to be dual tuner cable cards but cable cards are another thing that are still new, couple a new series 3 with new cable card technology and you've got something not so reliable. My PC only has 1 tuner on its DVR, the only reason it works is becuase we RARELY watch TV in the room its hooked up to, so it records things that we can watch across the XBOX media extender if needed, but again thats mainly for backup or if there's something I know I need to throw on a DVD or something.


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## bnbhoha (Nov 2, 2002)

I've been out of the loop for a while. My understanding is that their contract with tivo will end sometime in 2007. Do we know how long directtv will support their tivo models? Thanks I have an extra D-Tivo which I haven't opend and might sell it since I have no plans of using is until the end of the year.


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## Boston Fan (Feb 8, 2006)

I hear what you are saying, but in the end I believe it's Tivo who needs D*, not the other way around. Something like two-thirds of all Tivo subscribers come through D*. The pricing model that Tivo uses is prohibitive (I have 4 DVRs which cost me a total of $5.99/mo - 4 SA Tivos would cost me $34/mo!).

Yes, the Tivo platform is better in many ways (although I do like some of the R15 features better), but I think that the D* DVRs will improve over time. The same is not likely to happen with the Tivo subscriber base, which will be further eroded in the near future.

I also think that D* is being very prudent by pulling all of the control for technology and branding under their auspices, and I think that the short-term turbulence will ultimately give way to improved business prospects for D*.


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

The contract that Tivo has with DirecTV which expires in 2007 is for 'marketing' the Tivo. Service and support for existing DTivo's is likely to continue to years beyond that. The UltimateTV DVR, which has not been sold for about 2 years, and has a fraction of the user-base is still supported. In fact, I can't find reference to it, but Tivo and DirecTV did sign a contract for marketing that goes beyond 2007. I believe it deals with using viewer stats (a la Nielson), but at least it's something.



bnbhoha said:


> I've been out of the loop for a while. My understanding is that their contract with tivo will end sometime in 2007. Do we know how long directtv will support their tivo models? Thanks I have an extra D-Tivo which I haven't opend and might sell it since I have no plans of using is until the end of the year.


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

bnbhoha said:


> I've been out of the loop for a while. My understanding is that their contract with tivo will end sometime in 2007. Do we know how long directtv will support their tivo models? Thanks I have an extra D-Tivo which I haven't opend and might sell it since I have no plans of using is until the end of the year.


I would suggest that you activate it before February 2007 or it will be a doorstop.

Past that, it should work as long as the unit functions.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

Boston Fan said:


> I hear what you are saying, but in the end I believe it's Tivo who needs D*


From the company economic or investor point of view, maybe. (let's not start that one!)

But in the spirit of Daytona24's original post, from the customer/consumer point of view, directv needs tivo.

even some of the biggest and at-one-time most vocal proponents of directv's new dvr have given up on it


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## Daytona24 (Jun 8, 2005)

Boston Fan said:


> I also think that D* is being very prudent by pulling all of the control for technology and branding under their auspices, and I think that the short-term turbulence will ultimately give way to improved business prospects for D*.


As stated above I would agree with this statement, I just feel they are way behind schedule, when you have a solid product you cant replace it with something subpar, its almost like the new DVR is going through initial product testing out in the market.

DTV had to know stuff like HD, DVR's, and VOD were going to be big, but they have let cable go flying by in a short period of time.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

There's no way they are going to turn off tivos when the contract is up. I think directv has about 2/3 of the tivos out there (I may be wrong but thought I read that in a recent tivo article). No way do you just turn off that big a population of a product overnight. 

Now maybe I can see them offering favorable trade ins etc. But heck, why not just jack up the Tivo fee and keep 'most' of us happy with our tivos? 

And I'm no expert but am pretty sure i read that the guide data is the same no matter what so it doesn't really cost them anything to keep giving us tivos


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## Thespis (Apr 24, 2003)

> There's no way they are going to turn off tivos when the contract is up. I think directv has about 2/3 of the tivos out there (I may be wrong but thought I read that in a recent tivo article). No way do you just turn off that big a population of a product overnight.


I think what the poster was saying is that DTV won't activate a DTivo after the contract expires. I don't think they'll turn off units that are already activated.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

jmoak said:


> even some of the biggest and at-one-time most vocal proponents of directv's new dvr have given up on it


Given that I am almost three spins on the scale... would I count as one of the "biggest" proponents... 

I most certainly haven't given up on it.... as they are continuely improving the box


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

Thespis said:


> I think what the poster was saying is that DTV won't activate a DTivo after the contract expires. I don't think they'll turn off units that are already activated.


That would be quite horrible and really not gain anything but dissatisfaction from consumers who want the used market.


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 21, 2006)

Both companies are idiots. The strategy to eliminate the multiple HW vendors and bring it all under their own brand name in a leasing model has killed the key differentiator between DirecTV and Dish and also the cable companies. They have successfully managed to make the cable companies look like a good deal - not an easy feat! 

And Tivo? Good grief, they had the world by the tail and let it all slip away by being asleep at the switch. The day that DirecTV announced the introduction of the R15, I would have lowered the SA Tivo fees to $4.99/month. Instead Tivo has now managed to INCREASE the apparent monthly fees with their new pricing plans. Yeah, I know it now includes the HW, but from a consumer perspective the answer to "How much does SA Tivo cost?" is "$20/month" - not good marketing! Add the unbelievably long time it is taking for the Series 3 Tivo to be available, and you have a company that has blown it Big Time.

We all know the answers - the keys to a successful DVR are the guide data, the user interface, and the proper signal processing. DirecTV has managed to screw-up the basic functionality in the R15. Neither of them seems to have figured out how to properly deal with HD feeds. What's sad is that it's not that the competitors are better - it's just that these guys have not managed to execute to get to the next level, and everyone else has caught up.


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## af250xxl (Jan 24, 2006)

Would a drug dealer tell its addict clients to drink Coca-Cola instead?
(okay, that description may be a little too extreme, but I'm sure a lot
of people are addicted to TiVo, myself included)

I've been with DirecTV for a LONG time. The thought of dumping DirecTV has
never even remotely crossed my mind. Until they stopped using TiVo. 
Now if only my local cable or phone company can hurry up and upgrade
digital cable or FIOS TV, I'd drop DirecTV in a heartbeat. 

I have several DirecTiVo DVRs and one DirecTV R15 DVR. Yes, I've learned
to live to the R15. Yes, it's not that hard to learn... but watching TV using the
R15 takes the "fun" factor out of the experience.


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## herdfan (Feb 5, 2003)

http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=400996#post400996

The fact that Dan Collins posted it makes it credible.


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

herdfan said:


> http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=400996#post400996
> 
> The fact that Dan Collins posted it makes it credible.


Too good to be true. The only "bad" news would be the demise of TCF (an enormous assumption).


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

But would an acquisition mean they will keep tivo or that they merely will shut it down for directv? (very pessimistic question of course)


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

Thespis said:


> I think what the poster was saying is that DTV won't activate a DTivo after the contract expires. I don't think they'll turn off units that are already activated.


To all those 'in the know' Im curious, has Pony etc made any comment about this?


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

newsposter said:


> But would an acquisition mean they will keep tivo or that they merely will shut it down for directv? (very pessimistic question of course)


If DirecTV was the one acquiring TiVo you'd think that they'd get all the value out of it that they could (an even bigger TiVo logo on the box). Conversely others have postulated that DTV just wants the search engine and would just wrap it in the existing NDS software.

I don't think any definitive information is out there in the public record. The small article in NewsWeek itself is rather short on facts and long on "could be's."

If TiVo is purchased, the entity buying them would have to be a fool not to capitalise on the best branded DVR in existance.


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## DesignDawg (Aug 10, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> Given that I am almost three spins on the scale... would I count as one of the "biggest" proponents...
> 
> I most certainly haven't given up on it.... as they are continuely improving the box


Not to be presumptuous, but I think he may be talking about me. For the record, though, I haven't given up on it. I'm still keeping it and have high hopes. It's just really good not to have to use it right now! 

Plus, I'm in the middle of moving 3-4 times in 4-6 months, and I don't even have DirecTV service right now! 

Ricky


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

Quoted "but I think that the D* DVRs will improve over time" This statement is probably true but I will be waiting untill Tivo is no longer suppoorted by D* Probably well into 2009 as that is when a different contract expires between tivo and D* not the same one that dies in 2007. Dan can explain the 2009 one. This gives D* At least three or more years to get their Dvr as good as tivo. (Fat chance ,but miracles happen) Eventually Utv and tivo wont be supported and i will have to go with a D* dvr but I am giving them 3 years to get these tings working GREAT Not GOOD. Watch out D* I am building my dvd collection In 3 years I may have every thing ever recorded on 10,000 dvds and by than they may even have 100 hour dvds.

I am very close to having everything I want and can say Adios to all of them Cable ,Sat and anything in between. All the shows i record are reruns anyhoo exept the simpsons. I currently have almost all of them except for new.  thing when the simpsons go off the first run list I probably will kill D* ( although I still like Penn and tellers Bull Sh*T) 

If D* wants to keep me they better hope the simpsons live forever or Brannon and Braga are cooking up More Trek. Or They bring DTivo Back to life! 


Oh I forgot about family Guy. Long live Stewie griffen! As long asthose are still new! Hey ya never know Matt Groening may rekindle Futurama! That would keep Me! HMMMMM!!! Arent those FOX shows HMMMMM!!! Isnt fox and D* Owned by the same Dude HMMMMM!!!! Perhaps I will be here a bit longer HMMMMM!!!!


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

morgantown said:


> If TiVo is purchased, the entity buying them would have to be a fool not to capitalise on the best branded DVR in existance.


once they own tivo and all associated rights, can't they just slap TIVO on their own dvr? Of course we'd know the difference but how many general audience members would unless they had the box before?


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

newsposter said:


> once they own tivo and all associated rights, can't they just slap TIVO on their own dvr? Of course we'd know the difference but how many general audience members would unless they had the box before?


Perhaps. But it would be equally foolish not to keep those pieces of TiVo that made it the best branded DVR in existence, and then add your own "features." Lets just hope if DTV would ever do such a thing they would not insist on adding such "features" as missed recordings and so forth  .

Whomever might buy them would probably make a killing just by pulling out the season pass portions of its software and ruthlessly defending its patents. But since TiVo is a "best branded" product, it is really not that much of a secret as to how good it really is. For Example, you could slap a Rolls-Royce logo on a Pinto and people still would not line up to buy Rolls-Pintos (not like any of those people ever had a Rolls).

Slapping the logo on another DVR without the core competencies would harm the TiVo Image which is no small portion of the company's value.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

You're not helping with my devil's advocate questions


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

Sorry, Guy .


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 21, 2006)

morgantown said:


> For Example, you could slap a Rolls-Royce logo on a Pinto and people still would not line up to buy Rolls-Pintos (not like any of those people ever had a Rolls).


I'm not so sure about that - remember how many people bought the Cadillac-badged Chevies? And they still buy Lexus-badged Toyotas, etc. All it takes is a goofy little graphic loaded into the right directory...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

morgantown said:


> Perhaps. But it would be equally foolish not to keep those pieces of TiVo that made it the best branded DVR in existence, and then add your own "features."


Actually, they would need to grossly update the DirecTivo to catch up to a lot of stuff the standalones are doing now.

Then add in things like VOD and interactive TV to the box and they would have the ultimate killer app.


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> Actually, they would need to grossly update the DirecTivo to catch up to a lot of stuff the standalones are doing now.
> 
> Then add in things like VOD and interactive TV to the box and they would have the ultimate killer app.


Take the SA TiVo add the DTV decoders, then add the VOD and interactive out of the "other DVR" -- bingo!

Edit: Cleaned up reference to the other DVR.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> I most certainly haven't given up on it.... as they are continuely improving the box


Earl,

I don't believe that anyone who has purchased the OTHER DVR and still has the OTHER DVR has given up on it, but there is the possibility that DirecTV might have realized that it doesn't have the capability in-house to build a good functional DVR.

But I am not going to count my chickens until they hatch, so I plan on not getting excited about this news until it is announced by either DirecTV or TiVo.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

let's be honest...i think most of us would be happy with 6.2 

edit to add on HDtivo


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

newsposter said:


> let's be honest...i think most of us would be happy with 6.2


I am very happy with 6.2 and MRV via the ZIPPER. The units work great and everyone in the family use MRV almost daily to share recordings from unit to unit, its almost *Paradise* to have ten tuners and remote control capability via TiVoWebPlus.

I have very high praise to the folks like rbautch and Gunnyman and many others in the Underground forum for all the work they have done and are still doing.

My hat is off to you guys, way to go *rbautch* and *Gunnyman*.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

tbeckner said:


> but there is the possibility that DirecTV might have realized that it doesn't have the capability in-house to build a good functional DVR.


It's possible a lack of complaints about the new dvr has lead them to believe they CAN create a functional dvr most people are happy with. I'm not saying there are no complaints. I'm not "most people". Neither are most of the people on this board. But I'm not aware of masses of people sending them back.

I don't know the percentage of new r15 users that have called support, but I doubt its significantly higher than the call rate for new Tivo owners.

Why should DirecTv think they have failed with their first release? Most people are not judging it against a Tivo.

Another consideration is who isn't happy about the switch from Tivo? Only the existing DirecTivo owners. But the majority of them already own DirecTivo's and really aren't aware DirecTv has changed the DVR being handed out to new customers. It won't be until they buy their next unit they even become aware the Tivo's are gone.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> It's possible a lack of complaints about the new dvr has lead them to believe they CAN create a functional dvr most people are happy with. I'm not saying there are no complaints. I'm not "most people". Neither are most of the people on this board. But I'm not aware of masses of people sending them back.
> 
> I don't know the percentage of new r15 users that have called support, but I doubt its significantly higher than the call rate for new Tivo owners.
> 
> ...


Actually some of the feedback from the DirecTV CSRs on this forum say that they have received many calls and returns. And many support calls, complains, and returns are factored into the reasons that WEAKNEES.COM quit selling the OTHER DVR.

I wouldn't call it a wholesale defeat or failure, but it hasn't been a smashing victory either.

I have no idea what could be factoring into any decision that could make DirecTV/Murdoch talk with TiVo, but it could be what Dan Collins said, the problems with the current OTHER DVR and problems with getting the HR20 released. Only time will tell.

On the other side of the situation, I really don't feel it would be bad for anyone if DirecTV was talking with TiVo, it won't hurt anyone, even most of the current owners of the OTHER DVR would likely make out in any deal.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

BillyBob_jcv said:


> I'm not so sure about that - remember how many people bought the Cadillac-badged Chevies? And they still buy Lexus-badged Toyotas, etc. All it takes is a goofy little graphic loaded into the right directory...


I dont know about chevy caddys, but my Lexus toyota was the best car i bought in my life.(Its the first car I have ever owned that did not come new with so many different problems that I was at the dealer more than I was at home. So dont ya go and disparage My Lexus_toyota  

Going off the track a bit. Why cant we americans build cars that don't create tons of paper waste( From all the dang recall notices). I bought a 2002 lexus ls 430 and it went in the shop once for being a wee bit out of alignment. Not One recall notice. My wifes ford explorer had 4 the first year. One of which sounded damm scary( The recall was something that fixed something that could cause the thing to go KABOOMMM!! In a rear collision.

Ok back on track. Rupert PLEASE dont buy tivo (It would help To keep diretivo alive but probably would destroy Tivo in the process.) Tivo please buy D* instead!!


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> Ok back on track. Rupert PLEASE dont buy tivo (It would help To keep diretivo alive but probably would destroy Tivo in the process.) Tivo please buy D* instead!!


Well I was actually hoping the Cisco would buy DTV and TiVo . But, that is probably as likely as DTV buying TiVo...


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## herdfan (Feb 5, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> It's possible a lack of complaints about the new dvr has lead them to believe they CAN create a functional dvr most people are happy with. I'm not saying there are no complaints. I'm not "most people". Neither are most of the people on this board. But I'm not aware of masses of people sending them back.


Don't forget that _USAToday_ had a nice  article about how bad the box was and how people didn't really like. D* came back with the stupid "people who never had a DVR will love this" line.

The HT manager a BB told me that many R15's had been returned and that people asked for the TiVo version all the time.


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## herdfan (Feb 5, 2003)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> I dont know about chevy caddys,


IIRC, it was a rebadged Citation named Cimarron in the mid 80's.


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## kbcrowe (Dec 12, 2000)

herdfan said:


> IIRC, it was a rebadged Citation named Cimarron in the mid 80's.


Cavailer actually, my brother had one


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

morgantown said:


> Well I was actually hoping the Cisco would buy DTV and TiVo . But, that is probably as likely as DTV buying TiVo...


Cisco bought Scientific Atlanta sometime ago and the Cisco CEO was just playing the SA purchase up big this week as Cisco's entry into the LIVINGROOM of each American home.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

herdfan said:


> Don't forget that _USAToday_ had a nice  article about how bad the box was and how people didn't really like. D* came back with the stupid "people who never had a DVR will love this" line.
> 
> The HT manager a BB told me that many R15's had been returned and that people asked for the TiVo version all the time.


And if based upon hearsay in numerous posts in this forum, even some DirecTV CSRs have let it slip to customers (who have posted here) and in actual posts from a few CSRs that there are support problems and many returns of the OTHER DVR.

But then again who knows, unless you have all of the actual statistics.

I can guarantee you one thing; I am not going to buy the OTHER DVR just to check it out. And if I did then I would have to support it at home and in the forums, at least just to save face.


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

tbeckner said:


> And if based upon hearsay in numerous posts in this forum, even some DirecTV CSRs have let it slip to customers (who have posted here) and in actual posts from a few CSRs that there are support problems and many returns of the OTHER DVR.
> 
> But then again who knows, unless you have all of the actual statistics.
> 
> I can guarantee you one thing; I am not going to buy the OTHER DVR just to check it out. And if I did then I would have to support it at home and in the forums, at least just to save face.


Well, I got one for free with the $16 offer and it is "not good" as it stands today. I have broadband to check the weather, and I do not spend much time looking at the interactive channels. I'll try and stop myself there... It is inactive since it is not worth the $5 a month.

The CSR I spoke to when deactivating it simply said "yea we get a lot of that" after asking why I was taking it out of the line-up -- since I was unsatisfied. I leave that to the other forum 99.9% of the time...and try my best to stay on TiVo here.

Despite any negative feelings about an unlikely DTV purchase of TiVo, it is much better than today's other DVR that's here now. Based on other Satellite viewers opinions of the other (NDS) stuff..they are not happy either after numerous YEARS (hence TiVo's popularity in Europe after it has not been sold there in years, IIRC).

DIRECTV, PLEASE BUY TIVO!


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## kschauwe (Sep 17, 2003)

kbcrowe said:


> Cavailer actually, my brother had one


All J-cars:
GM J-Car: Chevy Cavalier, Cadillac Cimarron, Buick Skyhawk, Olds Firenza & Pontiac J-2000


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 21, 2006)

kschauwe said:


> All J-cars:
> GM J-Car: Chevy Cavalier, Cadillac Cimarron, Buick Skyhawk, Olds Firenza & Pontiac J-2000


A very dark & evil time for GM...


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## IOTP (Aug 7, 2001)

You know my sister wanted a DVR, I suggested to her call directv and order it up.

Around Christmas Eve 2005 it arrived and DTV came out for the installation.

I got there, looked at it, and I said, "WTF is this?" Needlesstosay, I gave her my a DSR6000R I had and she's a happy camper. I have the ptvupgrade cd, so I removed my dead 40gb drive, and installed a shiney 120GB drive.

Wholla!

The R15 went back.

It's a steaming hot pile.


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