# Official: Only 24hr use of PPV movies effective 4/15



## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

DTV ANNOUNCES CHANGE TO PPV MOVIE RECORDINGS (edited)

Effective April 15, the guidelines for DVR Pay-Per-View movie recordings will change. Customers will still be able to enjoy the convenience and variety of PPV movie selection; however, they will only be available for viewing for 24 hours after the time of purchase.

Due to recent changes required by movie studios, DIRECTV&#8217;s contractual commitments will no longer allow users to keep a digital copy of a movie on their DVR indefinitely. Movies that are purchased before April 15 and are on customer playlists will not be affected by this new policy. 

Existing DIRECTV customers will be notified in the upcoming weeks of this change in both their bill statement and also when visiting their playlist. 

Please note that this new policy will only apply to PPV movies. Other PPV programming will not be affected.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Not surprising... we did see hints of it, when the initial "leaks" of it back in February.

The movie studios are just catching up with DVR technology...
And using their renewal timelines to enforce new rules... their content, their rules.

Guess they don't want people spending $5 on higher quality recordings, and then be able to access them indefinently, instead of people going out and buying the DVDs.

I am curious to see how this will be implemented on the TiVo platform.
The DVR+ has already had this "feature" in place for a long time (DoD recording expire and remove from the system automatically, showcases on the R15 same thing).

But will PPV's be accessible to TiVo based units at all?
Will they need to be running on the latest (presumely the 6.3f or maybe the "spring update"), for this to be enforced...


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Not surprising... we did see hints of it, when the initial "leaks" of it back in February.
> 
> The movie studios are just catching up with DVR technology...
> And using their renewal timelines to enforce new rules... their content, their rules.
> ...


It's already in the Tivo HD. Of course that doesn't work on D* service.


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## zamzickles (May 21, 2002)

Just when I was preparing to give that last $30-$60 a month I've been spending at the Video Rental Store for real high-def movies to D*, they screw it up once again. 7 days would be acceptable, 24 hours is just too much hassle. There are alternatives and I guess we continue to use them.


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## gamo62 (Oct 12, 2002)

zamzickles said:


> Just when I was preparing to give that last $30-$60 a month I've been spending at the Video Rental Store for real high-def movies to D*, they screw it up once again. 7 days would be acceptable, 24 hours is just too much hassle. There are alternatives and I guess we continue to use them.


Yep. With one being renting from RedBox, for a buck! And for those who have software burn it to DVD. Legal, no. Realistic, yes.


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## rodbac (Aug 16, 2005)

Yeah, I'll be renting a LOT of movies now...


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

RS4 said:


> It's already in the Tivo HD. Of course that doesn't work on D* service.


All Series 2/3 Standalone TiVos support time limited recordings. I wouldn't be surprised the DirecTV TiVos have that functionality already.


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

Time to stock up on blank DVD's for my recorder I guess.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Ebonovic stated on DBSTALK that it might be PAY UPON WATCH (ie: download now but do not pay until you watch). That would be a little better. I have no idea if that is the case though. I would sometimes download a PPV because my Grandkids are coming over in a few days ... with his example that would make it possible, the other way would make it lousy. 

So is it:
PAY-DOWNLOAD-WATCH within 24hrs of download.
or
DOWNLOAD-WATCH-PAY when you decide to watch it.

???


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

HR2x already does the download and pay when you watch thing. I am interpreting this as when you hit play on a PPV purchase it will self destruct after 24 hours. Do other cable services do this? DirecTV will be seeing less of my PPV purchases. My wife and I purchase movies and watch half of it one night when going to bed and watch the second half the next night.

My best friend records PPV for his child because they are less destructible than DVDs. Most DVDs last about 5 minutes when his little girls her hands on them. She is only allowed to watch 30 minutes of TV a day so a typical animation takes her about 3 days to view. I guess DTV will be loosing his purchases also.

The 24-hour window is way to short. It seems like 7-days would be a much better window.

I have noticed all my recordings on my HR20-700 are set to delete on December 31 running the latest CE. I wonder if they are going to do this with all recordings?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I'm another who won't be ordering any PPV movies after this goes into effect. I understand that it's the studios forcing this - another boneheaded move, that will further reduce their revenues.


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## disco (Mar 27, 2000)

Absolutely will reduce my PPV orders to $0/month. I was up to $10-$15/month with the recent PPV HD channels, but not anymore...not if they expire! I would have no problem if they reduced the price a bit (say, to $2), but not at $5/movie. 

Stupid move, studios....stupid move...


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## moonman (Jul 21, 2004)

I wonder if the recent writer's strike had any cause for this push? I think the writer's were seeking a cut from DVD sales?


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

rminsk said:


> ...The 24-hour window is way to short. It seems like 7-days would be a much better window...


Window? I got 'yer F'in window right here!

Why do they even need a window? What do they hope to improve or protect with ANY window? I know DTV has to cater to the movie studios but isn't Jack Valenti dead yet ferchrissakes?

If they are trying to protect their product somehow, this won't do it. Bootleggers will make a HD copy of the original recording on their DTV DVR within the first 24 hours, and that WILL NEVER expire.

I don't see how this does anything other than drive folks away from PPV. If I buy a movie and watch it on Friday and another family member wants to watch it on Sunday, I should not have to buy it twice. That's as ridiculous as buying a new CD every time I want to play it.

PPV is not the only source. These luddites will find themselves out in the cold with this approach. See ya in hell first, DTV! :down:


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Well, the way it was written could go either way. Those words came from DirecTV and aren't my interpretation.

So you are saying that if you currenly select a PPV and don't watch it for 2 weeks you won't be billed until you watch (ie: 2 weeks later)?

If that is the case that's a little bit better then 24hrs from the moment you place the order. It doesn't work that way on my HR10 and I've never purchased one on my HR20.



rminsk said:


> HR2x already does the download and pay when you watch thing. I am interpreting this as when you hit play on a PPV purchase it will self destruct after 24 hours. Do other cable services do this? DirecTV will be seeing less of my PPV purchases. My wife and I purchase movies and watch half of it one night when going to bed and watch the second half the next night.
> 
> My best friend records PPV for his child because they are less destructible than DVDs. Most DVDs last about 5 minutes when his little girls her hands on them. She is only allowed to watch 30 minutes of TV a day so a typical animation takes her about 3 days to view. I guess DTV will be loosing his purchases also.
> 
> ...


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Just another excuse for me not to use Pay-per-view at all. (Not that I've used it for anything in forever on my system anyway).

I'll stick with discs, or maybe I'll just consider other means to find my content... means where the studios and greedy pigs don't get a cut at all. Not that I'd ever say it's right to steal movies.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

I doubt the S1 Dtivo supports content flagging. The S2's certainly should unless that code was explicitly excluded from 6.3 -- like the home media code. Even if it's not there, it should be a trivial thing to turn (back) on. The only question is if DTV will accept the way Tivo, Inc. handles things... you have a set number of days to begin watching, and then 24hrs once you do. (There are also limits on how long you can "keep until...")

I don't know what they'll do about the S1's. They've never been on that code path. (no HMO)


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## stevmead (Oct 21, 2002)

TyroneShoes said:


> Window? I got 'yer F'in window right here!
> 
> Why do they even need a window? What do they hope to improve or protect with ANY window? I know DTV has to cater to the movie studios but isn't Jack Valenti dead yet ferchrissakes?
> 
> ...


++++1


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> Window? I got 'yer F'in window right here!
> 
> Why do they even need a window? What do they hope to improve or protect with ANY window? I know DTV has to cater to the movie studios but isn't Jack Valenti dead yet ferchrissakes?
> 
> ...


I understand your anger, but blame the right people. It's the movie studios, not Directv. These are the same terms the studios have have put on unbox, apple tv rentals, xbox 360 rentals, and probably everything else like it as well.

-smak-


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I don't think I ever ordered a single PPV after DirecTV stopped including the 2 or 3 free PPV coupons they used to send with each bill. This change certainly wouldn't have gotten me back, either. 

Unrealistic pricing. Unrealistic use limitations. That it's still worthwhile to offer these services at these prices just goes to show how overpriced vs. actual cost they are. They simply don't need a whole lot of takers to make it profitable to dedicated bandwidth to them.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Considering it has 100&#37; ZERO Impact to the customers that don't have DVRs (about 13 million), who are probably the majority of PPV viewers (since most DVR users have other recordings qued up in their systems).

So it is probably still very worthwhile for them to offer the PPV... in the exact same fashion that it is today. (non-dvr viewers are the reason why most of the main PPV's are shown every 30 minutes for a few hours)


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## CopyCat (Oct 13, 2005)

By the time a movie hits PPV our local library has the DVD without a rental charge. Who needs PPV ?


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## Bob_Newhart (Jul 14, 2004)

But if you wait a couple months until it comes out on HBO-HD, then you can record it and keep it on your DVR indefinitely, correct?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

disco said:


> Absolutely will reduce my PPV orders to $0/month. I was up to $10-$15/month with the recent PPV HD channels, but not anymore...not if they expire! I would have no problem if they reduced the price a bit (say, to $2), but not at $5/movie.
> 
> Stupid move, studios....stupid move...


I couldn't agree more. My wife and I were big PPV movie buyers. Often I would buy it and watch it, and then days later she would get the chance to watch. Now we have to buy it twice. Not gonna happen.

What's the big deal with a 7 day window? Do they really think I'm going to buy it again in that time period?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I wonder if this got triggered specifically now because you can now download over broadband on the newer directv dvrs. Who knows if anyone would ever say though.

Amazon unbox on the standalones is also downloaded via broadband and has a similar stipulation.

You pay for the download then it is sent to the box. It survives for a number of days (I think 30 off the top of my head) and then once you hit play you have 24hrs to view until it self districts.

Other downloadable content have various similar things (music choice allows unlimited viewing for 30 days before self destruct as an example) going on and of course PPV on cable card devices can be flagged to last just 90 minutes before self destruct (on a minute by minute basis) . So I assume the tivo code in the stand alones is configurable at will to maybe anything or at least a set of common time frames for duration on the box and time from the start of play. If that made it into the directivo&#8217;s I don&#8217;t know- but isn&#8217;t there a new software download promised soon for the directives (or did you folks get that already?)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dswallow said:


> I don't think I ever ordered a single PPV after DirecTV stopped including the 2 or 3 free PPV coupons they used to send with each bill. This change certainly wouldn't have gotten me back, either.
> 
> Unrealistic pricing. Unrealistic use limitations. That it's still worthwhile to offer these services at these prices just goes to show how overpriced vs. actual cost they are. They simply don't need a whole lot of takers to make it profitable to dedicated bandwidth to them.


Its been a while but I remember seeing the stats once for the number of ppv movies DTV sells in a year. It was HUGE. Considering all of us that think its crazy to even order one- or just order on occasions there must be some group of people that order PPVs almost daily or something. This wouldnt bother those type folks.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Considering it has 100% ZERO Impact to the customers that don't have DVRs (about 13 million), who are probably the majority of PPV viewers (since most DVR users have other recordings qued up in their systems).


But DirecTV wants to change that. They have the goal of every new receiver will be a DVR and eventually a HD-DVR. DirecTV also says that their DVR subscribers have lower churn and spend more money. DirecTV is doing everything it can to make sure that DVR users are the majority.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> Its been a while but I remember seeing the stats once for the number of ppv movies DTV sells in a year. It was HUGE. Considering all of us that think its crazy to even order one- or just order on occasions there must be some group of people that order PPVs almost daily or something. This wouldnt bother those type folks.


But do the PPV fanatics WATCH those movies daily? If not, I suspect it would bother them.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

this will bite as i keep the phone line unplugged and as we all know you cant force PPV calls 

hmm now that i typed it i cant see where that affects me though but it must !


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## JLucPicard (Jul 8, 2004)

allan said:


> But do the PPV fanatics WATCH those movies daily? If not, I suspect it would bother them.


As Earl mentioned earlier, I would suspect the vast majority of people that put DirecTV's PPV buy numbers into the HUGE category are primarily non-DVR users. If those are the people that are buying the majority of the PPVs, they watch them when purchased anyway, so this shouldn't affect them.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

smak said:


> I understand your anger, but blame the right people. It's the movie studios, not Directv...


Who did YOU think I was talking about? 


TyroneShoes said:


> ...I know DTV has to cater to the movie studios but isn't Jack Valenti dead yet ferchrissakes?


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

What the HE%^

This was the exact reason I wanted my HD DVR. I record a movie, then watch it when I feel like it, not when somebody wants me to. This will also stop me from being able to show my child their favorite movie over and over again, because it will be deleted from my system. 

This really blows my mind. Why do the studios think making it more and more difficult for people will make them buy more of their product?

P.S. Is there such a thing as Bluray recorders yet? This seems to be the only way around this nonsensical rule.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

JLucPicard said:


> As Earl mentioned earlier, I would suspect the vast majority of people that put DirecTV's PPV buy numbers into the HUGE category are primarily non-DVR users. If those are the people that are buying the majority of the PPVs, they watch them when purchased anyway, so this shouldn't affect them.


You guys couldn't be more wrong. My wife and I have two kids. For us to go out to the movies costs well over $50 by the time we pay a baby sitter, tickets, etc. We can do the same movie in PPV for $5 in HD. The video store is 5 miles away.

We have 3 HR20's, so it is fair to say we are DVR people. It was the perfect solution for us. Now we will have to re-evaluate how we watch new movies. There will no doubt be less PPV in our future.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> You guys couldn't be more wrong. My wife and I have two kids. For us to go out to the movies costs well over $50 by the time we pay a baby sitter, tickets, etc. We can do the same movie in PPV for $5 in HD. The video store is 5 miles away.


But if you just wait 2 or 3 more months, at most, they'd be on the pay subscription movie channels...


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

I find less and less theatrical releases on the "movie" channels (HBO, SHO etc) these days and more and more of their own stuff.


dswallow said:


> But if you just wait 2 or 3 more months, at most, they'd be on the pay subscription movie channels...


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

incog-neato said:


> I find less and less theatrical releases on the "movie" channels (HBO, SHO etc) these days and more and more of their own stuff.


Do you have Starz? It seems they've grabbed a lot of studios' movies that used to end up on HBO or Showtime.


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## trex527 (Jul 16, 2007)

Still sounds like "they" are shooting themselves in the foot because yes some people will continue to use the service but it also sounds like some folks who doesn't have the time(for the 24 hour time limit)will pack their bags and go elsewhere.Not blaming Dtv but it may/will cost them with loss of revenue.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> You guys couldn't be more wrong...


I think the jury is still out on who might be more wrong.

If JLuc was talking about your specific situation, it might not apply to you anecdotally. I don't think he was. But if a small fraction of the universe of DTV subs have PVRs, (an even smaller # of HD PVRs) then it seems unlikely that a large fraction of DTV subs would be affected by a timeout for PPV recordings. I agree with JLuc on that point :up:.

You even agree that PPV would become more difficult to manage, which can't be an improvement in anyone's eyes.

Regardless, there still seems to be absolutely no upside and a huge downside for the movie studio idiots. IOW, lots of PPV recordings currently or just a few, there will be fewer and fewer if more restrictions are placed on the convenience factor, which is the central engine that drives PPV in the first place, a critical fact they seem to have forgotten.

I have a proposition for a compromise that would provide a Solomon-like solution that would benefit everyone:

Have 2 windows, a 1-day window and a 14-day window. Drop the ridiculously-high price a buck for the 1-day window, and apply the 14-day window to PPVs at the same ridiculously-high price they have currently.

Everyone benefits; those who can't afford PPV now have a lower price point offset by a bit more inconvenience, which equals more PPV sales. Those who are willing or able to pay for the convenience of a 14-day window pay what they normally would have paid and thus the number of those who would continue to buy PPVs would not be hammered by the new 1-day restriction (IOW would not decline as steeply).

The number of sales of 1-day would probably more than offset those lost to the inconvenience of any window, and the movie studios can keep their blind fantasy that they still have some control over their content once they release it unencrypted to a mass market.

This can be done transparently. Set the PPV price at the -$1 rate with a clear disclaimer that if the viewing takes place more than 24 hours later, the account will be debited the extra buck. This has the added value to the movie studios that the perceived price (for most folks, who aren't going to learn to be diligent about viewing within 24 hours anyway) is artificially below the actual price. IOW, If I think I'm getting a bargain, even if I'm really not, there is a greater likelihood of them getting my money. If instead I'm in the small minority who does the due diligence to make sure I finish watching in 24 hours, instead of a huge profit the movie company still makes a large profit.

It's the same business model as health clubs. Most folks will base their $100 monthly membership on "If I go 5 times a week, that's a bargain". The reality is that most of them end up going a few times and that's it, which is anything but. If everybody used their club membership regularly, the fire marshall would be emptying the place for exceeding the occupation limit. If cell phone users used the minutes they pay for, nobody would be able to find an open circuit.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Will this apply to porn too? They sell you 6 channels for 3 hours at a time. What do they expect you to do other than record them and watch later?


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## Avenger (Mar 26, 2002)

Yep, that's the absolute end of PPV for me. I'd buy one a month or so, and I have a nice little library of decent stuff on the HR10 for the kids to watch. And I NEVER watch stuff the same day I buy it. I buy things as they come on, as they appeal to me, and watch them when I have time. 

If I lose the flexibility to do that, then I'll simply get that content in a way that gives me the flexibility to watch it when I want. One more nail in DirecTV's coffin. Very unfortunate.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

dswallow said:


> But if you just wait 2 or 3 more months, at most, they'd be on the pay subscription movie channels...


but who gets what is always fun to decide and everyone cant afford TCP


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> Will this apply to porn too? They sell you 6 channels for 3 hours at a time. What do they expect you to do other than record them and watch later?


I really don't want to even imagine what they might expect you to actually do with your porn  . I really do hope they don't expect us to engineer our partners' capriciously-receptive moods to coincide with a single 3-hour viewing that expires in 21 hours (or to whack it for 3 hours straight. 2 1/2 hours, I can do, but 3 hours? That's just ridiculous.)

And truth be told, Viagra has a built-in time-out too, which might be boosting the sales of Cialis. There's your argument for a longer window, right there .


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

as I can get SD with better quality from BB or Netflix. Now with this crap, it will drive me towards Blue-Ray not HD PPV.

Screw the writers and The studios!!


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> (non-dvr viewers are the reason why most of the main PPV's are shown every 30 minutes for a few hours)


Nope. They're shown every 30min so you can _begin watching_ within 30 minutes. PPV's are impulse items; you don't schedule them days in advance. (excluding 150$ PPV sports events.)


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

cramer said:


> Nope. They're shown every 30min so you can _begin watching_ within 30 minutes. PPV's are impulse items; you don't schedule them days in advance. (excluding 150$ PPV sports events.)


Nope. They're shown every 30 minutes because that's as close as DirecTV could get to emulating cable on-demand PPV systems.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> You guys couldn't be more wrong. My wife and I have two kids. For us to go out to the movies costs well over $50 by the time we pay a baby sitter, tickets, etc. We can do the same movie in PPV for $5 in HD. The video store is 5 miles away.
> 
> We have 3 HR20's, so it is fair to say we are DVR people. It was the perfect solution for us. Now we will have to re-evaluate how we watch new movies. There will no doubt be less PPV in our future.


So your one single case... makes us "couldn't be more wrong"...

I didn't say it was a universal 100% applicable rule, but if you look across the 17+ million customers... I would bet the larger majority of PPV usages is on non-dvr systems.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

cramer said:


> Nope. They're shown every 30min so you can _begin watching_ within 30 minutes. PPV's are impulse items; you don't schedule them days in advance. (excluding 150$ PPV sports events.)


Actually... since I have asked... 
The #1 reason why they are on every 30 minutes... is because up until the recent DVRs... they had to be watched live.

So they only wanted customers to have to wait ~ 15 minutes to the next showing of the movie, instead of 2+ hours.

And you are very correct... they are impulse buys...hence why they don't want people waiting 2+ hours for the next showing, just about 15 minutes.

The feature in the DVR+ where you can record at any time, and pay when watch is newer, and hasn't impacted the schedule of the PPV's.

But the DoD and the influx of DVR's that allow record/pay later... will have an impact in the future of the PPV schedule (having 6 channels locked up to one movie, may reduce)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

stiffi said:


> ...
> 
> P.S. Is there such a thing as Bluray recorders yet? This seems to be the only way around this nonsensical rule.


any new HD digital recording device (like a blueray recorder)- is likely going to need to comply with all these flags anyway so you wont be able to burn digital HD disks ever of this sort of content. Currently to get HD content digital off a cable system the device needs to be approved by cablelabs and comply with their flag provisions in order to get approved. I assume DBS would do the same thing. I guess it's possible that someone might make an HD recorder one day with analog component inputs but not sure how long that would last if ever once the lawyers get at it.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

TyroneShoes said:


> ...
> 
> Regardless, there still seems to be absolutely no upside and a huge downside for the movie studio idiots. IOW, lots of PPV recordings currently or just a few, there will be fewer and fewer if more restrictions are placed on the convenience factor, which is the central engine that drives PPV in the first place, a critical fact they seem to have forgotten.....


that's the bet they are making, that in the end they get more buys (or at lesat more cash for the same number of purchases becasue people now buy discs instead of PPV). They assume the amount of people pissed off that wont buy becasue of the new rules will be more then offset buy people who will now spend more (either by paying for another viewing by PPV or buying a disc or buying perpetual download rights). Several people above posted how they buy a ppv for the 5ish bucks and then keep it on the DVR forever to watch over and over. It's those people that the studious are trying to thwart.

Myself- i think they could get what they want without annoying the regular folks that just want a reasonable timeframe to watch the movie. The amazon unbox threads make good points that 24hrs stinks if you get interupted you might not get back to it in 24hrs even if you watch the next eveing. So maybe 36 hrs would be more reasonable.

I think an intelligent choice would be just to use the unbox model but make it more realistic. Buy a movie and it sits on the box for 30 days. Once you start to watch maybe you get 36 or 48 hours to watch. They could probably even do options like someone else posted above to charge more and make it less restictive.

Maybe even pay per viewing. Say a movie is 90 minutes they allow you to play it back at 1x speed say for a total of 180 minutes so you can rewind and rewatch parts too. You watch 20 minutes tonight you have 160 minutes of viewing left tomorrow.

the boxes affected with this issues are all dvr's which presumably can be updated with software to allow any old rule anyone wants to make.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

another day, another reason to love my Netflix. 

and yes - the studios are not going to loose any money at 48 or even 96 hours and would start to make sales off me.
I can deal with a rental not being around to watch forever but give me some time to enjoy the movie properly.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> ...Several people above posted how they buy a ppv for the 5ish bucks and then keep it on the DVR forever to watch over and over. It's those people that the studious are trying to thwart...


Well, that could go two ways.

I might see that as a reason to accept being forced into buying the same content more than once, but I think that is very doubtful, and I don't really see anyone else doing that, either.

The other way it could go is now PPV is much more inconvenient, so I don't buy it from them at all.

If they don't make it significantly more inconvenient for those folks, which is essentially what you say the goal is, they will still get the $5. If they do make it inconvenient, they get nothing other than creating the same overhead for DTV of them carrying it on their server and chewing up a channel that fewer people are buying content from.

So how is driving folks away and reducing sales rather than increasing them (or at least maintaining them) a sound business model? What do they gain from taking that giant risk? Is there a "big picture" that I just can't see?

If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound? If a PPV airs on a DBS channel and nobody pays for it due to the inconvenience of a tiny playback window, do they make as much profit as they used to before the restriction? The first question is a long-debated Philosophy 101 exercise that no one has ever definitively answered. The second question is a no-brainer.

Maybe they are just so colossally stupid as to take the term "pay-per-view" literally, as if we need to pay them for each viewing. PPV becomes a misnomer then if more than one person comes into the room when its on. I guess if they integrated the people meter technology that Nielsen is using, they could put up a dialog box in the middle of the movie that says:

"We just detected that your wife walked into the viewing room. Your account will now be debited another $5.99 before we will allow the program to continue. Please click either "accept" or "deny". Thank you. From your friends at Sony Pictures."


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

2 things- it's not Directv's rule. It's the movie studios. They dont care if you never but a 5$ PPV again from directv if they think you would shell out 20 for the dvd INSTEAD now that PPV is a pain in the rear. ( i assume in that example that they make more money). They dont care if Directv's servers get jammed until the world ends. They want every last dime they can extract from the end users wallet and thats their only motivator. They probably assume something like 18 of 20 ppv purchases will suck it up. And 1 of the 2 pissed off people goes to buy the dvd. In the end they have a couple more bucks in their hand.

second- pay per view- or probably pay per glance IS there end game. Or at least what they want to get too. it's clear as hell they dont think anyone owns the content they buy. They think you buy the media and then they are doing you a favor by letting you watch the software that sits on it. Try scratching a dvd and getting a fresh copy out of them- wont happen. They think it's illegal to copy from one media to another media for crying out loud. They think it's illegal to play a dvd on a linux pc. The same group of people have said that tivo users ff through commericals are stealing primetime tv.

It's just like microsoft and many others are trying to move to software as a service where you pay every 365 days for the next year's use. MS et al would rather you rent their software for a year then buy a cd/dvd version.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

see this thread for another dispicable hollywood rule.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6081087#post6081087

these people are not in reality.

When you buy a movie from amazon unbox part of the service is you can delete it from your hardware and then redownload it later. But appaently even though you "own" the movie you can't download it when the movie studio feels like putting it on PPV. So you have no access to the movie you own until they feel like letting you have access.

Same thing will probably occur if directv ever allows people to purchase stuff on their download service.


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> 2 things- it's not Directv's rule.


So? They could have some balls, give hollywood the big fat finger, and refuse to do it. It doesn't matter whose rule they are following when they do this, they are still to blame for it.

This will drive my PPV usage from rare to never. A couple weekends ago, I dropped $12 on 3 PPV's, and noticed the next day, I could have redboxed all three of them for $3. If they're going to restrict viewing to 1 day, they should charge $1.

This was just a pissed off rant, and should be read in that context.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

CrashHD said:


> So? They could have some balls, give hollywood the big fat finger, and refuse to do it. It doesn't matter whose rule they are following when they do this, they are still to blame for it.


And then hollywood could them the whole fist, and yank the rights to the PPV content...

So as much as you want to blame DirecTV... they are only implementing the rules of the contract that the content holders requested and would agree too.


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

It would still be nice if they gave the content providers the finger as eagerly as they give it to the customers.


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

CrashHD said:


> It would still be nice if they gave the content providers the finger as eagerly as they give it to the customers.


:up:


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

Interesting. It's been a while since I did a PPV, just waited for stuff to show up on HBO. Now I went Blu with Netflix so I wont have to deal with this crap. When do you think the studios will force a 24 hour rule on rentals? That would kill that market. Remember DVIX we all know how well that went over.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> And then hollywood could them the whole fist, and yank the rights to the PPV content...
> 
> So as much as you want to blame DirecTV... they are only implementing the rules of the contract that the content holders requested and would agree too.


I think you are actually sugar coating that Earl and making it sound like Directv had more say then they do.

I doubt for a second that hollywood "requested" anything. Considering that's the exact same sort of window they forced on others it seems clear, to me at least, that the MPAA has drawn a line in the sand and the content providers in the middle have to take it or leave it.

Saying no probably gets the content yanked all together and hollywood doesn't care- they seem to think that if they loose PPV $$$'s that they will make it up via some other delivery route.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Matt L said:


> Interesting. It's been a while since I did a PPV, just waited for stuff to show up on HBO. Now I went Blu with Netflix so I wont have to deal with this crap. When do you think the studios will force a 24 hour rule on rentals? That would kill that market. Remember DVIX we all know how well that went over.


if they could they would. Unfortunately for them DVIX died.

But I also wouldn't put it past them at some point to force a new charge every 24hrs.

It might also be that hollywood gets a bigger cut from disc rentals then other means. I seem to recall some revenue sharing plan on rentals?


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

MichaelK said:


> I think you are actually sugar coating that Earl and making it sound like Directv had more say then they do.
> 
> I doubt for a second that hollywood "requested" anything. Considering that's the exact same sort of window they forced on others it seems clear, to me at least, that the MPAA has drawn a line in the sand and the content providers in the middle have to take it or leave it.
> 
> Saying no probably gets the content yanked all together and hollywood doesn't care- they seem to think that if they loose PPV $$$'s that they will make it up via some other delivery route.


You're right, they could never do it. 5 seconds later, every cable system in the country would tout that Directv doesn't have PPV. And DISH.

-smak-


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

smak said:


> You're right, they could never do it. 5 seconds later, every cable system in the country would tout that Directv doesn't have PPV. And DISH.
> 
> -smak-


Do you honestly think a company with 17 million viewers doesn't have clout? I wonder what would happen if they just said 'no' - we ain't showin it unless we can do it on our terms. I wish one of these outfits would have the gumption to do it - maybe the other companies would follow suit. But I doubt if that will happen.

Maybe we ought to start a class-action lawsuit against the video companies - something like accusing them of colusion


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

RS4 said:


> Do you honestly think a company with 17 million viewers doesn't have clout? I wonder what would happen if they just said 'no' - we ain't showin it unless we can do it on our terms. I wish one of these outfits would have the gumption to do it - maybe the other companies would follow suit.  But I doubt if that will happen.
> 
> Maybe we ought to start a class-action lawsuit against the video companies - something like accusing them of colusion


I do think directv has clout. I also think Amazon has WAY MORE clout. Yet neither can get past the 24hr viewing window. It seems the MPAA just thinks if PPV dies then everyone will run to buy a dvd or blue ray disc instead so they've drawn a line in the sand and will not cross it.


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

Will a software update be necessary to enact this policy? Is there a chance an old enough software version will fail to enforce this?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

CrashHD said:


> Will a software update be necessary to enact this policy? Is there a chance an old enough software version will fail to enforce this?


Yes, an update will most likely be necessary.

But they could (in theory), not allow any PPV on older versions of software.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

i dont understand. My 3.1 box hasnt been plugged in in over 500 days and i thought if you order PPV on the web it goes to all your machines. If so, they how would they be able to control me recording the ppv on my 3.1 machine?


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Couldn't they just somehow tag the information on your access card to not allow playback or autodelete after 24hrs? The access card tracks all PPV's purchased.


ebonovic said:


> Yes, an update will most likely be necessary.
> 
> But they could (in theory), not allow any PPV on older versions of software.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

incog-neato said:


> Couldn't they just somehow tag the information on your access card to not allow playback or autodelete after 24hrs? The access card tracks all PPV's purchased.


I am not sure the Access Card could be used in the fashion, for specific programs... vs the entire PPV functionality.

It is possible though...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

newsposter said:


> i dont understand. My 3.1 box hasnt been plugged in in over 500 days and i thought if you order PPV on the web it goes to all your machines. If so, they how would they be able to control me recording the ppv on my 3.1 machine?


Just like they control if you can see a channel or not.

You may not be able to see the PPV channel at all, if you are not on a proper version of the software.

(Just like on the HR10-250, where they can set it so you can't even see the MPEG-4 only channels like Smithsonian)


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

It's called pay *per view.* I'm surprised we haven't seen these kinds of restrictions sooner. I wonder if we'll see PPV movies available earlier in the cycle, at the same time movies are available in hotels and airplanes, maybe a month before they're available on DVD.

DTV could either block PPV on all older DVR units or block PPV on older units that aren't running current software. I'm pretty sure they can program a card not to receive PPV, even if ordered on the website.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

lew said:


> It's called pay *per view.*


i would agree that you could only be allowed to watch it one time thru...(dont like it but i could understand)

the issue here is the 24 hour window


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

newsposter said:


> i would agree that you could only be allowed to watch it one time thru...(dont like it but i could understand)
> 
> the issue here is the 24 hour window


They're being generous, letting you watch it multiple times during a 24 hour window. Not keep it forever like some posters want but still letting you use your DVR so you can pause, go back and see what you missed, watch it a second time if you fell asleep.....

Again this might be more palatable if the result was getting PPV movies earlier. We can buy a previously viewed DVD for under $10. That may make more sense then paying $3-$5 for a movie we can only watch during a 24 hour window.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

lew said:


> They're being generous, letting you watch it multiple times during a 24 hour window. Not keep it forever like some posters want but still letting you use your DVR so you can pause, go back and see what you missed, watch it a second time if you fell asleep.....


I don't have time to watch it multiple times in 24 hours. Often, I wouldn't have time to watch it ONCE in 24 hours. These days, I do good to watch a show in the same week I recorded it.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

TyroneShoes said:


> Well, that could go two ways.
> 
> I might see that as a reason to accept being forced into buying the same content more than once, but I think that is very doubtful, and I don't really see anyone else doing that, either.


That's EXACTLY what the MPAA wants. They want to sell teh same movie to teh same customer multiple times. Theater-PPV-DVD-Special Edition DVD-Boxed set DVDs....



TyroneShoes said:


> The other way it could go is now PPV is much more inconvenient, so I don't buy it from them at all.
> 
> If they don't make it significantly more inconvenient for those folks, which is essentially what you say the goal is, they will still get the $5. If they do make it inconvenient, they get nothing other than creating the same overhead for DTV of them carrying it on their server and chewing up a channel that fewer people are buying content from.
> 
> ...


That's how it is for me. I WILL NOT AGREE to the 24 hour rule. My ADD will not abide.

BTW, there are two versions of the rule:

CableTV DVRs and I gatehr, DTV, will be "You have 24 hours to view the movie, as much as you want, from the time you order it."

Amazon Unbox and Apple iTunes have the rule, "You have 24 hours to view the movie, as much as you want, from the time you first begin to VIEW IT."

Note that with the first plan, you could lose the thing you bought without even having seen a second of it.

I WILL NOT agree to either plan, because I'm prone to fall asleep or lose intrest and want to come back and pick up where I left off in a day or three. With eithe rdeal I can't do taht.



TyroneShoes said:


> Maybe they are just so colossally stupid as to take the term "pay-per-view" literally, as if we need to pay them for each viewing. PPV becomes a misnomer then if more than one person comes into the room when its on. I guess if they integrated the people meter technology that Nielsen is using, they could put up a dialog box in the middle of the movie that says:
> 
> "We just detected that your wife walked into the viewing room. Your account will now be debited another $5.99 before we will allow the program to continue. Please click either "accept" or "deny". Thank you. From your friends at Sony Pictures."


The above is their wet dream.

Besides, now that "we own your PC with our rootkit" Sony has locked up HiDef DVDs from all comers, I highly doubt I'll ever buy one.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Is this change only with DIRECTV?
No. This is an industry-wide change required by movie studios, and this policy change being implemented by all other cable and satellite television providers. 

Does this new policy apply to all pay-per-view events? 
No. The new 24-hour-expiration policy only applies to movies. Regular programming and PPV events, PPV sports or Adult purchases are not affected.

Will movies purchased before Apr 15, 2008 be deleted from my Playlist?
No. Any movies that were purchased before Apr 15, 2008, and that are currently saved in your Playlist are not affected by this new policy.
How will I know when the 24-hour window begins?
The general rule of thumb is that the 24 hour period begins at the time of purchase. When you call into the Automated System, or a CSR, the 24 hour period starts when the transaction is completed.
Receiver	24-Hour Timeframe Begins:
Legacy TiVo DVRs	Currently not affected (TBD)
DIRECTV with TiVo R10	Currently not affected (TBD)
DIRECTV with TiVo HR10-250 Currently not affected (TBD)
DIRECTV Plus DVR R15	On viewing
DIRECTV Plus DVR R16	On viewing
DIRECTV Plus HD-DVR HR20	On viewing
DIRECTV Plus HD-DVR HR21	On viewing

How long will selections I&#8217;ve opted to "record/buy later" remain on my Playlist? When you select the "record/buy later" feature from your PLUS receiver, the movie will stay on your DVR Playlist for a longer period of time. Your 24-hour clock begins when you actually buy the PPV movie, so once you start playing the movie, you will be prompted on screen to confirm your purchase. 

Do DIRECTV's TiVo receivers have the "record/buy later" feature? No. The "record / buy later" feature is only offered on DIRECTV Plus DVR or Plus HD-DVR receivers. 
What if I manually record a PPV movie, but don't watch it? 
The 24-hour viewing period is triggered by your purchase of the PPV movie. If you haven't confirmed the purchase, you will not be charged.

Could a PPV movie expire from my Playlist before I get around to watching it?
Yes it could happen, so plan accordingly when ordering Automated Phone, the Web, or a CSR. You can use the "record/buy later" function at home on your DVR player (not available on TiVo) to keep the movie on your Playlist until you are ready to watch it. Could a PPV movie expire from my Playlist before I get around to watching it? Yes it could happen, so plan accordingly when ordering through IVR, the Web, or a CSR. You can use the "record/buy later" function at home on your DVR player (not available on TiVo) to keep the movie on your Playlist until you are ready to watch it.


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## bc3tech (Jan 3, 2007)

netringer said:


> ...Besides, now that "we own your PC with our rootkit" Sony has locked up HiDef DVDs from all comers, I highly doubt I'll ever buy one.


haha. yeah?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=306&tag=nl.e622

build "better" anti-piracy, we build a better pirate. bring it on, sony.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

netringer said:


> Besides, now that "we own your PC with our rootkit" Sony has locked up HiDef DVDs from all comers.


You mean the Blu-ray Disc Association and not Sony has locked up HiDef DVDs. The board of directors on the Blu-ray Disc Association includes: Apple, Inc., Dell, HP, Hitachi, LG, Mitsubishi Electric, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, Sun Microsystems, TDK, Thomson, Twentieth Century Fox, Walt Disney, and Warner Bros.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

What were the rules before this change? DVR users could record a pay per view and keep it forever?

-smak-


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

yes i still have PPV on from 3 years ago


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

HR10 Users: Just unplug your receiver and order as many pay-per-views as you can before 4/15 and they won't charge to your account -- when it stops allowing you to order movies remember to never plug in your device again (since you won't want the flawed upgrades anyway) and declare a small victory against the Motion Picture evil-doers.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

bc3tech said:


> haha. yeah?
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=306&tag=nl.e622
> 
> build "better" anti-piracy, we build a better pirate. bring it on, sony.


Too bad the USD is so weak against the Euro -- makes the software kind of expensive - but still a win for the consumer. How much money are media companies going to waste on DRM? They simply pass the cost onto the consumer through the media and DRM hardware in the players, making everything so expensive that consumers feel the necessity to pirate. But make everything cheap, and the incentive to pirate diminishes substantially. When will they learn....


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

in theory, you could plug in your device and make a call....and it wouldnt get out the PPV..i'm positive of this because one time i got the ppv ext. message and tried forcing a call..then someone told me you cant force PPV calls, you have to let it dial out itself


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

parzec said:


> HR10 Users: Just unplug your receiver and order as many pay-per-views as you can before 4/15 and they won't charge to your account -- when it stops allowing you to order movies remember to never plug in your device again (since you won't want the flawed upgrades anyway) and declare a small victory against the Motion Picture evil-doers.


Your access card has a $10 limit. it has to call in and report those purchases before you can go past that $10


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Your access card has a $10 limit. it has to call in and report those purchases before you can go past that $10


Yes, this would be a very small victory, indeed, although, I thought the limit was more like $25?? -- but then again, I haven't ordered any pay-per-views in many many many years.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

newsposter said:


> in theory, you could plug in your device and make a call....and it wouldnt get out the PPV..i'm positive of this because one time i got the ppv ext. message and tried forcing a call..then someone told me you cant force PPV calls, you have to let it dial out itself


From my experience I believe you are right, as I have some ancient "purchased" PPV's on my HR10 that won't go away, even after I drag my HR10 to a friends house with a landline to get those buggy 6.3 "updates". I guess this is one benefit of the Vonage dial-up limitations and the failure of D*to activate the USB ports for networking.


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## bc3tech (Jan 3, 2007)

parzec said:


> Too bad the USD is so weak against the Euro -- makes the software kind of expensive - but still a win for the consumer. How much money are media companies going to waste on DRM? They simply pass the cost onto the consumer through the media and DRM hardware in the players, making everything so expensive that consumers feel the necessity to pirate. But make everything cheap, and the incentive to pirate diminishes substantially. When will they learn....


psh it'd be about, what, $75-80? that's the cost of just over 3 BDs. bam, money recouped.


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

I didn't see this posted elsewhere, so I will post.

This is what appears at DirecTV.com when I checked out my bill:

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P4540022

And no, does not appear to affect the TiVo receivers at this point.


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

I've seen this coming for a while.....when I got the Apple TV and the PPV's would only stay for 30 days, and would expire 24 hours from when you start to view it, I told my wife that we will stick with buying PPV's from DirectTV, but that I expect them to follow suit in the future.

What I am now wondering is if our days of enjoying a huge expanded DVR full of movies will eventually be over completely.......I'm thinking more of the movie channels...HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, etc....

I currently have a 280 hour TiVo, and an HD-DVR that have nothing but movies (I had a 1TB HR10-250, but it died  ) Will this same rule eventually make it to the movie channels as well? Will it then go to network TV (maybe giving you a couple of weeks to watch a show before it expires)?

It is a slippery slope.....I can understand PPV (as someone pointed out...Pay *Per View*), but if they try to do the same with movies or shows from other channels, I will be unsubscribing to all of those channels!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

unixadm said:


> I've seen this coming for a while.....when I got the Apple TV and the PPV's would only stay for 30 days, and would expire 24 hours from when you start to view it, I told my wife that we will stick with buying PPV's from DirectTV, but that I expect them to follow suit in the future.
> 
> What I am now wondering is if our days of enjoying a huge expanded DVR full of movies will eventually be over completely.......I'm thinking more of the movie channels...HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, etc....
> 
> ...


as long as they are broadcast linearly CURRENTLY (I guess subject to change) there are laws/regulations against limiting recordings as such. The closest they can do is resrict to one generation of copy (the cable CCI 0x02 flag is the legal limit for linear broadcast channels). PPV and VOD are legally allowed to be restircted to JUST 90 MINUTES of hold time (so you can't rewind to the begining of a 2 hour movie if it just finished recording). And many cable systems do that today to their cablecard subscribers.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

well finally got the notice on the HR20

my wife asked me if we can still burn to dvd out the S video cable....can we? (i have a standalone panny E80 that i'm sure would recognize any flags)


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

newsposter said:


> well finally got the notice on the HR20
> 
> my wife asked me if we can still burn to dvd out the S video cable....can we? (i have a standalone panny E80 that i'm sure would recognize any flags)


Yes you can burn out the S-video. That's how I do it. My brothers panny does not see flags like my sony does, but there are ways around that. Sima GoDVD ct-200- have not had a failure yet. Check your best buy, office max or other similar stores.


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

> I can understand PPV (as someone pointed out...Pay *Per View*),


Pay per view is just the name of the service. If it was to be interpreted literally, then it would not make sense that it can be viewed as many times as one wants during the 24 hour period that will be allowed under the new system. Likewise, the fact that most of DTV's PPV movies are available as "All Day Ticket", would not make sense.

If they intend to keep people from "archiving" content on their dvrs, I suppose that could be considered reasonable (sucks...but reasonable). 24 hours, however, is ridiculous. Something in the range of 72 hours, to a week or so, would be a lot more reasonable.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

CrashHD said:


> If they intend to keep people from "archiving" content on their dvrs, I suppose that could be considered reasonable (sucks...but reasonable). 24 hours, however, is ridiculous. Something in the range of 72 hours, to a week or so, would be a lot more reasonable.


Why? So you can start and stop watching?

What is the difference between the "All Day Ticket" and the 24 hour viewing after purchase....

The 24hr clock doesn't start until you start playback for the first time.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

CrashHD said:


> Pay per view is just the name of the service. If it was to be interpreted literally, then it would not make sense that it can be viewed as many times as one wants during the 24 hour period that will be allowed under the new system.


Ummm... PPV has been around DirecTV long before DVRs existed and it was exactly that - Pay and view it once when it came on.


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

Mark Lopez said:


> Ummm... PPV has been around DirecTV long before DVRs existed and it was exactly that - Pay and view it once when it came on.


Ahh, everybody is missing the real picture here....VCR's.... were on their out, but with this change, they are back in existence. Damn Lobbyists. Bring back the Beta hi-fi VCR's! Still have 2 of these in my home watching shows with my friends The Flinstones. Pay and view it many times. Who is TiVo anyway? The big companies caught up with new technology.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Why? So you can start and stop watching?
> 
> What is the difference between the "All Day Ticket" and the 24 hour viewing after purchase....
> 
> The 24hr clock doesn't start until you start playback for the first time.


You're kidding right? Many times 24 hours is not long enough and that is why this policy is so ridiculous. We typically watch a movie after dinner during the week - usually 7:00 or after, but if something happens and we get interrupted, we cannot finish the movie the next night or later in the week. What would you have us do, pay for another rental?

If they're going to be like that, why bother at all - just go back to view it one time.

The movie rental service should be a convenience for the consumer, not something that meets someone's idea of how much money they can squeeze out of the consumer. The video industry is just upsetting folks with this stupid policy. As usual, this is another process where the video folks are clearly trying to rip the customer off for as much money as possible.:down:


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

RS4 said:


> You're kidding right? Many times 24 hours is not long enough and that is why this policy is so ridiculous. We typically watch a movie after dinner during the week - usually 7:00 or after, but if something happens and we get interrupted, we cannot finish the movie the next night or later in the week. What would you have us do, pay for another rental?
> 
> If they're going to be like that, why bother at all - just go back to view it one time.
> 
> The movie rental service should be a convenience for the consumer, not something that meets someone's idea of how much money they can squeeze out of the consumer. The video industry is just upsetting folks with this stupid policy. As usual, this is another process where the video folks are clearly trying to rip the customer off for as much money as possible.:down:


No. I am not kidding.

When I worked (as a teenager) for Blockbuster... 
It was amazing to see the revenue dollars on late-fees and re-rentals...
It often was twice if not more, then the original rental rate for the video.

That is a LOT of money... and yes... the content owners want that revenue.
So yes... they have closed a loop hole in their PPV model that has existed for about 9 years now.

Sucks for those that advantage worked well for them.

------------------
On another note...

Over at DBSTalk, a user when through all the top tier Cable-Co's and other services... user agreements posted on the internet. What was found... all the carriers looked at: have a similar 24 hour rule.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1542635&postcount=544
(for Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Time Warner OnDemand, Cox OnDemand, Charter PPPV, CableVision PPV)

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1542665&postcount=553
(for WOW and Comcast)

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1542752&postcount=566
(for Dish Network)

Some of those clauses are dependent on how you obtain the content... 
but does anyone that think that it won't expand to cover all forms of PPV... regardless of the distribution method?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Why? So you can start and stop watching?
> 
> What is the difference between the "All Day Ticket" and the 24 hour viewing after purchase....
> 
> The 24hr clock doesn't start until you start playback for the first time.


The unbox *****ing thread has much of this same arguments found in this thread. Maybe there should be a new thread in the general area about how the MPAA is unreasonable with all the providers, Amazon, Apple, Directv, and likely everyone once there contracts renew.

Since it's the movie owners that forced these rules on everyone- the problems are the same.

Anyway- the points on the unbox thread that 24hr's is stupid generally center around what happens if you get interupted watching the movie. 24 hrs is a pretty unforgiving. Say you get home at 6 each night. You have dinner at 6 and start watching a movie a 6:30. Something happens that night (a work emergency, your kid gets sick, your mother in law calls to talk to your wife for 4 hours, etc, etc). So you can't get to finish watching the movie that night before bed. You get home the next night at 6 and you only have 30 minutes to finish watching.

some argue 36 hrs would fix that.

I think a reasonable solution is to make it literally "pay per view". Measure the amount of /timebits in the movie and then permit that tuch time or that many bits to be played back. Double it and subtract 1 and then you can account for people rewinding a bunch. Hell be reasonable and just double it or triple it. Maybe even put in a flag that goes off if you get to the last 5 minutes and set a 36 hr clock after that. There's all sorts of more user friendly solutions that could be made with very simple logic. Real tivo's (not directivo's) use all sorts of rules depending on where the thing gets downloaded from. I doubt there's any rocket science there so I assume Directv or Apple or anyone else downloading contect could make any rules required to make things more reasonable for the consumer.

The problem is the puds who own the movies are evil and are not attempting to be reasonable. Maybe the MPAA should look over at what happened to the RIAA when they tried to fight technology instead of teaming with it....

A certain subset of people are gooing to get pissed by this and stop buying movies now and instead break out the bittorrent client and take things into their own hands. It's probably a small small fraction. If you make enough decisions that are combative then all the small small fractions add up and next thing you know more people are on bittorrent then not and you're whole industry is ruined.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> ....
> 
> ------------------
> On another note...
> ...


exactly- it's not directv that made the call its the MPAA or their members. So of course everyone that gets content with them will be the same.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> No. I am not kidding.
> 
> When I worked (as a teenager) for Blockbuster...
> It was amazing to see the revenue dollars on late-fees and re-rentals...
> ...


Earl-

apples and oranges-

I'd vernture to say these huge bills you saw were for people that forgot the movie under the couch - not some "evil" consumer that dared to finish watching a movie the next day becasue they were interupted. Maybe even people that wanted to watch the movie 14 days in a row- I dont think many are arguing that it's evil to stop PPV's being being kept forever- it sucks but it's not unseasonable. The main complaint (or the one that offends me) is a normal comsumer who just wants to watch the movie once could easily get hosed.

Even when blockbuster charged late fees there was an ability to deal with the interupted movie syndrome- you didn't get 24hrs to rent a movie. You had the rest of today and all of tomorrow. Most places you had a drop box so you had the rest of today, all of tomorrow, and the morning of a third day to drop the movie off before the store opened. So 36+ hrs was the norm not 24hr.

Even that annoyed people and many movies became 2 or 3 or even 7 day rentals- ALL BEFORE netflix existed.

I'm not even really a big movie buyer- I had directv for like 8 years- I think I purchased less than 10 PPV movies the whole time and probably 8 of those were in the first year when it was a toy. I have had cable for about 18 months- for about the first 6 I kept a box from them in case I wanted to PPV or VOD- never bought a thing. Now I've had unbox on my tivos and maybe i purchase a movie a month (it's still a new toy for me and my kids). So none of this really affects me in a major way at all. But still it just seems scummy to me to make the timeframe so rigid.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> Earl-
> 
> apples and oranges-
> 
> ...


Yes... things are not the same as they were... And it is Granny Smith to Red Washington apples... 

But back then it wasn't a lot of cases of multiple days late or lost...
Just one day late, was the same price as the original 3 day rental.

Similar to our local rental place today... there is no late fee... just an automatic re-rental... same terms, but it is $5 for a three day rental.

So the newer systems... like NetFlix... are flat rates for an entire month.
So they blance that between the peopel that are renting and watching the moment they get it, and requestion more... with those that only get one movie a month...

I have LONG since done away with PPV.... I rarely even look at the listings. Maybe once every couple of months, if there is just nothing else on... we are all caught up on the TV shows... and the stack of DVD's just doesn't intrest us that much..... haven't purchased one in several years..


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I find the granny smith to be too bitter...


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## michaelp95 (Nov 20, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> Why? So you can start and stop watching?
> 
> What is the difference between the "All Day Ticket" and the 24 hour viewing after purchase....
> 
> The 24hr clock doesn't start until you start playback for the first time.


So if the movie is an all day ticket, record it each time it plays, you would have like 12 copies of the movie on your DVR, then each one would one expire after 24 hours, you would still have others unwatched unaffected by the 24 hour time limit, of course this will take a lot of space on your DVR.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

michaelp95 said:


> So if the movie is an all day ticket, record it each time it plays, you would have like 12 copies of the movie on your DVR, then each one would one expire after 24 hours, you would still have others unwatched unaffected by the 24 hour time limit, of course this will take a lot of space on your DVR.


Wouldn't work.

The clock starts the moment you pay for the all-day ticket.

Basically, the clock starts the moment you pay for the content.


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## GalenMD (Apr 13, 2002)

I have no problem with PPV movies expiring. I think there is unanimous agreement that 24 hours is EXTREMELY absurd. Give me a few days. Netflix gives us unlimited time. The video retail stores (Blockbuster) give us a week.

Like Earl, I hardly ever order PPVs or even look at the listings. PPV movies come out typically about 3 months after the DVD release. It's then several more months before they come out on the movie channels (HBO, Showtime, Starz, etc). If I want to see a movie that badly, I will see it in the theater or rent it when it gets released a hell of lot longer before it hits PPV.

This whole this is so insulting, that I am tempted to cancel ALL my movie channels and just go with Netflix. I will hook up an extra media PC to my computer and download whatever movies I want, whenever I want. Who will this hurt? DirecTV and the cable companies. Maybe they have enough money/power/influence to get MPAA to back down.

I guarantee you that PPV purchases will plummet.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

GalenMD said:


> PPV movies come out typically about 3 months after the DVD release.


Many studios are now testing simultaneous DVD and PPV releases and the results have been very good.


GalenMD said:


> I will hook up an extra media PC to my computer and download whatever movies I want, whenever I want. Who will this hurt? DirecTV and the cable companies.


It will hurt anyone who is involved in the production of film... like myself.


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## GalenMD (Apr 13, 2002)

rminsk said:


> It will hurt anyone who is involved in the production of film... like myself.


Just to be clear, I am not talking about illegal downloads, but legitimate ones paid for through Netflix or other legal vendors.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

GalenMD said:


> ....
> 
> I guarantee you that PPV purchases will plummet.


unfortunately i dont think it will.

first most people dont yet have dvr's. So most people will notice no change at all.

beyond that- it may be that people with dvr's are less likley to order ppv becasue they have a dvr full of programming if they turn on tv and there's nothing live they wan to watch.

then the other side of the coin is will it effect unbox, appletv, and all the internet donwloads- that I think it will- but since the market is so young all they will do is slow growth and not cause a reduction so the idiots at the MPAA will assume there's not much negative to the approach.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

rminsk said:


> ....It will hurt anyone who is involved in the production of film... like myself.


I hope you have an opportunity to tell your employers that fighting technology like the RIAA instead of embracing it is a stupid approach and might cost all the folks in your business in the end. They should be thinking about ways to use technology to make it easier to buy the product rather then add on annoyances.

every minor roadblock to people being able to EASILY use technology to legitimately get content likely pushes some small fraction towards the illegal peer to peer stuff. Make enough boneheaded minor roadblocks and eventually you have pushed many people to do things the wrong way and think nothing of it. There's a whole generation of young people that think downloading any song they want off the net is fine. Handle things wrong in records to this period of transition from physical media to bits and bytes and there will be a whole generation of young people that think downloading any movie or TV show they wont off the 'net for free is fine too...


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I read through most of this thread and did a search but could not find any info on how this would affect Directv Tivos. Does anyone know if this 24 hour rule will affect these boxes or not?


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

It's just a little over 72 hours until we can find out. If it turns out to require a new software version, well, that will just be one more advantage of v6.2a.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> Why? So you can start and stop watching?
> 
> What is the difference between the "All Day Ticket" and the 24 hour viewing after purchase....
> 
> The 24hr clock doesn't start until you start playback for the first time.


you find this strange or something (start and stop watching)? not everyone rents/buys a ppv a movie and sits down to watch it immediately. thats one of the bonus' of having a dvr in the first place.

we bought 'american gangster' from ppv last weekend.......we watched half of it. we'll finish it tonight; thats the way we like to enjoy our movies -at our own pace and leisure.

a couple years ago we got 'lotr' from ppv. that movie is what, almost 4 hours long? we watched about 45 minutes a night, and really enjoyed it that way.......we had more movie to look forward to each evening.

this 24 hour stuff is total bullsh*t, and once implemented dtv wont get another penny from us in ppv revenue. we dont own a blu ray, but can get a good upconverting dvd player for under $50, so itll be netflix or bb.....anybody but dtv.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

magnus said:


> I read through most of this thread and did a search but could not find any info on how this would affect Directv Tivos. Does anyone know if this 24 hour rule will affect these boxes or not?


i remember a snippet somewhere that no it wont but i vaguely remember someone saying they are gonna update the code to make it so


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Earl said elsewhere that, no, the DTiVos won't be affected by this.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Thanks guys, my sister is going to be happy to know that.


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

magnus said:


> I read through most of this thread and did a search but could not find any info on how this would affect Directv Tivos. Does anyone know if this 24 hour rule will affect these boxes or not?


Apparantly not, but there is some info at DirecTV.com www.directv.com/ppvexp and below:



incog-neato said:


> Is this change only with DIRECTV?
> No. This is an industry-wide change required by movie studios, and this policy change being implemented by all other cable and satellite television providers.
> 
> Does this new policy apply to all pay-per-view events?
> ...


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

um, ok. thanks. 



codespy said:


> Apparantly not, but there is some info at DirecTV.com www.directv.com/ppvexp and below:


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

Any idea if it will be 24 hours, to the minute? Like say 25 hours after the beginning showtime of a 2 hour movie, will the last hour of the movie still be there? Sort of like the same way live tv rolls off the end of the live tv buffer? Or will it be all gone at once at one set time?

Has anyone bought one with a tivo, to confirm whether or not they are affected by this "bug"?


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

CrashHD said:


> Has anyone bought one with a tivo, to confirm whether or not they are affected by this "bug"?


DirecTV already announced (as posted here and it's in the FAQ) that this is not on Tivo based DVRs or the non DVR receivers. Only the DirecTV based DVRs that have the "record now, buy later" technology.


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

Anyone buying PPV movies at all?

Which DVR's are automatically deleting/not deleting or is it going as predicted?

Looking for feedback on your experience.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

codespy said:


> Anyone buying PPV movies at all?
> 
> Which DVR's are automatically deleting/not deleting or is it going as predicted?
> 
> Looking for feedback on your experience.


As already noted in the official announcements:

The DVR+ Systems, will do the 24hr rule... and yes, they have been auto-deleting based on feedback else where.

The TiVo DVR Systems, are not currently following the 24hr rule.
The Ultimate TV DVR Systems, are also not currently following the 24hr rule.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> As already noted in the official announcements:
> 
> The DVR+ Systems, will do the 24hr rule... and yes, they have been auto-deleting based on feedback else where.
> 
> ...


Sounds like D* doesn't want to pay the bucks to have it done.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

RS4 said:


> Sounds like D* doesn't want to pay the bucks to have it done.


Or the MPAA was ok with them only doing this on their current line of receivers.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Wow, imagine that. Now Dish has to do it.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/134167-dish-begin-drm-ppv-may-6th.html

I guess it wasn't "big bad" DirecTV after all.


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## tja273 (Aug 26, 2007)

ebonovic said:


> I have LONG since done away with PPV.... I rarely even look at the listings.


I have TRIED to stop looking at these, but DTV conveniently "refreshes" several of these channels for me on a regular basis (home shopping channels, too). Every month I remove them from my "Channels you receive." Every month, they refresh them, or others. How very helpful of them...


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

shibby191 said:


> Or the MPAA was ok with them only doing this on their current line of receivers.


Yep, I think the technology is something that might not exist in older equipment, and so the MPAA settled for grandfathering. If so, there could be a provision that sunsets that. IOW, don't be too surprised that this doesn't either push the urgency for DTV to boat-anchor that older equipment, or that some day PPV isn't available on the HR10 at all (they would just wipe the channels to appease the MPAA, who is apparently not afraid to salt the earth and shoot their own PPV sales in the foot).


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