# Does anyone use a roamio (or a mini) with a switch?



## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

I've run into a situation and was curious if anyone has been successful connecting a roamio to their network via Ethernet cable and a switch (no Moca).


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

Yes, I do. Before we moved I had no problem getting MOCA to work. But when we moved to this apartment I just couldn't get it working. I tried using powerline connectors, but had limited success. I am able to get one of them working, but when I try to run two of them I have problems with the Minis. 

So right now I have one running off the powerline and one with a direct ethernet wire. Both of those are run through a gigibit ethernet switch. My Roamio is also run into the same switch. The only time I have an issue is if I'm using the telephone, which is VOIP.


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## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

I guess I should have asked in my original post. If you do have a switch that works for roamio/minis would you mind sharing the make/model #.

Hopefully we can make a list of a few that work to maybe save some headaches down the road.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

2004raptor said:


> I've run into a situation and was curious if anyone has been successful connecting a roamio to their network via Ethernet cable and a switch (no Moca).


Are you having a problem with a switch or are you concerned of Tivo statement they don't support them?

Only time I seen problems with TiVo's and switches has been connecting a dumb switch to a managed switch, in that situation the dumb switch wouldn't connect as the managed switch was a Gb switch and the dumb one was just a 10/100.


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## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

I only have one switch and it's old and apparently dead. So, my quest for a new switch begins. If a cheap switch will work then I'll get one. But I'd love to know which models people have had success with.


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## leepoffaith (Apr 21, 2014)

Even though I have Verizon FiOS I don't use their router because I have no need to with Tivo. Instead I use the Roamio Plus as the bridge. Basically I have my Cat 5e coming in from the ONT to my main router, then one of those ethernet ports goes to my bonus room which has a switch in it. This is where I have my Roamio which bridges the ethernet and cable together. I have had no issues at all and the switch has worked great. It is a TP Link TL-SG108 8 port. It's on amazon for $30.


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## diphosphine (Sep 2, 2008)

I use two on my network, a Netgear Prosafe GS105 and a Netgear Prosafe GS108, with a TiVO Roamio Pro plugged directly into the GS105. I haven't had any problems.


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## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

Thanks for the info. I may hit up a local store tomorrow and see what they have in stock. If I don't have any success I will probably order one of the above.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I use around fifteen Dlink Gigabit switches(8 port and 5 port-all unmanaged). Before I recently moved my TiVos to MoCA they were connected to some of these Gigbit switches and they worked fine on them.


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## jmbach (Jan 1, 2009)

I use a a linksys/cisco SE2500 switch which has my Roamio plus, Samsung TV, and Blu-ray player hooked into it. The switch then connects to another linksys/cisco SE2500 switch which is then connected to a Sonicwall NSA 240. The switch that is connected to the Sonicwall is also connected to an Apple Airport Extreme and two other computers in my wired network. I have two other Apple Airport Extremes that act as a wireless bridge to connect my two other entertainment areas. One with a Premiere XL, Blu-ray, and Sony tv and the other an OLED S3 and a Blu-ray. I have no problems streaming between any combo of TiVos and no problem streaming to my iPad in-house or out of the house. All the cabling in my network is either Cat 5e or Cat 6.


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## eric102 (Oct 31, 2012)

All of my TiVo's and mini's go through at least 2 switches and some 3 switches and have never had a problem with any of them. 

I use the TP-Link TL-SG105 (5 ports) and TL-SG108 (8 ports).


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## lgnad (Feb 14, 2013)

My Roamio hops through three switches, two of which are 10/100's that are about to get the hook... Netgear FS605 v2

I am finally getting around switching them over to Tp-link switches I picked up several months ago... 8 Port Gigabit, TL-SG108. Comcast just boosted me to 105 mbps service.... never though 100mb network would be a bottleneck!


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

My Roamio Pro is connect through 2 switches actually. Roamio connects to a switch in the AV cabinet, which runs via CAT6 to the basement and connects to a switch there, which runs to the router. No problems whatsoever.


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## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

Well, I guess I shouldn't listen to TiVo support. They told me their devices will not work through switches.

This all started after I ran the roamio through an access point. It worked fine except the mini was going through the main router directly and they wouldn't talk too well. I told the guy that I would just take that router out of ap mode and run it like a switch. He said it still wouldn't work.

Now I'm wondering if I should try it.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

I learned the hard way that "cheap" switches give you exactly what you pay for. Unless they honor priority tags, priority tagging/packets get stripped out, and all traffic gets treated equally.

The switch I'm posting a link to allows for both honoring and passing priority tagging, and also has the ability to assign priority based on each port (a manual way).

Best of all, it's on sale right now for 20 bucks. I've replaced every switch in my house with either ones that honor and pass the priority tags, or these (mostly at end-points):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...-EMC-042914-Index-_-Switches-_-33122363-L018B

NETGEAR 5 Port Gigabit Desktop Switch (GS605AV)
Limit 2 per customer.

$59.99

$19.99
WITH PROMO CODE
EMCPFHA72


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## lgnad (Feb 14, 2013)

ok, i got off my butt and put in the other two switches...


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

I meant to add that myself I use a couple Nortel 5510 24 port switches but these are enterprise switches, I only use them because the are very cheap and Nortel switches are the brand I have supported for my employer for the last 20 years. Most people will find these total over kill as these are layer 3 IP routing switches, terrible energy burners but awesome management and diagnostics.


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## HDRyder9 (Aug 2, 2007)

I had some trouble with a mini and a Cisco 10/100/1000 switch. I gave up and used a different switch.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

2004raptor said:


> Well, I guess I shouldn't listen to TiVo support. They told me their devices will not work through switches.
> 
> This all started after I ran the roamio through an access point. It worked fine except the mini was going through the main router directly and they wouldn't talk too well. I told the guy that I would just take that router out of ap mode and run it like a switch. He said it still wouldn't work.
> 
> Now I'm wondering if I should try it.


The biggest problem with residential switches is that the majority of them have no management. Unlike the simplest network diagnostics that the ethernet interfaces in the TiVo's can report, when you attach devices to an unmanaged switch you have no reporting of errors, data rates or anything. This is why Tivo takes the postion that "switches" are not supported.

If you are looking for a switch, the best solution is one that has some type of Web interface were you can monitor and even in some cases configure port speed. The biggest problem I have encountered is port speed mismatch esp in older ethernet interfaces and older ports for example if you are using a 10/100 mb ethernet switch, some 1gb ethernet devices attached to it may not be able to negotiate the speed correctly. I have seen a old netgear 10mb switch that if you attached a 1 Gb device to it, the link lights would light up, activity lights would blink but no communications would occur.

Another issue too when dealing with 1gb ethernet and switches, you must have some type of intelligence in monitoring the port otherwise you are running blind, a bad ethernet cable can be the problem just as I saw recently were someone was having a mini connection problems problem, they replaced everything including Tivo replacing the Mini until finally they replaced the cable to find the first one was bad.

Regardless, the majority of newer switches will work fine with Tivo products, Tivo takes the postion they do for support reasons as they have to draw the line in what they can support and what they can't in home data networks. On the same merit, all switches aren't created equally and you get what you pay for, managed is better. In this day and age, the built in 5 port switch on your router just won't hack it when you have 4 TiVo's, a couple pc's, a networked shared printer, and even perhaps a NAS. I have a larger than average consumer home network, my primary network has up to 20 nodes on it at any given time and I laughed at Tivo support when they told me that Tivo won't work on "switches", even if turned everything else off, I only have switched 5 ports built into my router and yet have at least 6 Tivo devices so there is no way I could use just the router port switch ports if I wanted to!


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## dotorg (Jul 3, 2000)

2004raptor said:


> I've run into a situation and was curious if anyone has been successful connecting a roamio to their network via Ethernet cable and a switch (no Moca).


What sort of problem are you having? Since the spring update hit, I've had nothing but problems with one of my Minis connecting to my Roamio Pro. It had worked flawlessly for six months and now it works probably less than 50% of the time.

I thought I had narrowed it down to an issue where things were buggy if the Pro was on MoCa and the Mini was on Ethernet, but it seems to be a more subtle problem than that... I have three Minis, and two always work over MoCa regardless of if the Pro is on MoCa or Ethernet, but the Mini on Ethernet doesn't seem to reliably work at all. That's a new issue.

Might be unrelated to what you're seeing, but who knows ...


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

dotorg said:


> What sort of problem are you having? Since the spring update hit, I've had nothing but problems with one of my Minis connecting to my Roamio Pro. It had worked flawlessly for six months and now it works probably less than 50% of the time.
> 
> I thought I had narrowed it down to an issue where things were buggy if the Pro was on MoCa and the Mini was on Ethernet, but it seems to be a more subtle problem than that... I have three Minis, and two always work over MoCa regardless of if the Pro is on MoCa or Ethernet, but the Mini on Ethernet doesn't seem to reliably work at all. That's a new issue.
> 
> Might be unrelated to what you're seeing, but who knows ...


Can you describe how your network is setup (Internet provider, Internet router, switch if not using built in switch ports on your router), etc? Also, what is bridging your ethernet into Moca, are you using the pro as the gateway with ethernet connected to the pro? do you have fios or do you have a dedicated Moca device like a actiontec moca adapter acting as the gateway?

Might be better to start a new thread rather than to crash this one unless you believe an external ethernet switch issue.

In the majority of situations, wired ethernet is usually more stable than Moca.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Basic troubleshooting dictates that a replacement cable should be one of the first things you try. Not the last.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> Basic troubleshooting dictates that a replacement cable should be one of the first things you try. Not the last.


Very true,


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

I think I have just some generic 5 port 10/100/1000 netgear switches I bought cheap on woot like 2 years ago and then the built-in switch on my AT&T leased router.

I never had a single mini-disconnect until very recently (after the latest update), but they are still fairly infrequent.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> I think I have just some generic 5 port 10/100/1000 netgear switches I bought cheap on woot like 2 years ago and then the built-in switch on my AT&T leased router.
> 
> I never had a single mini-disconnect until very recently (after the latest update), but they are still fairly infrequent.


(like it matters) but I just posted a message in the Tivo suggestions feature request, we need better network diagnostics, it's nuts to be struggling with these possible network issues when most have little if no display of how the Tivo home network is operating.

Right now we have little understanding if the problems we have are network faults or Tivo software.


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## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

I just grabbed 2 different switches. One is an 8 port Linksys, the other an 8 port netgear.. It'll be late tonight before I have a chance to hook them up, so we'll see.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Netgear has some reasonably-priced switches that allow cable diagnostics via web-browser or via PC-installed software (you pretty-much have to choose one or the other, and some of them require the PC you use for this have a direct-line into the switch).

I would like to think TiVo's alleged remarks about "not supporting switches", are their support-bots confusing HDMI switches with network switches.

I agree with a recent post about people using dumb-as-a-rock network switches, (that obviously don't even honor QoS/Priority tags), and also don't have built-in cable diagnostics. I added the part about the QoS/Priority tags.

I bit the bullet, and yanked out all my almost-new gigabit Trendnet switches, in favor of ones that honor QoS/Priority tags, and a central one that does that, plus does cable diagnostics.

It was well worth the money, as all my networking performance improved, once I had all the switches out that didn't specify "IEEE 802.1p priority tags", as being honored/supported.

The improvements:
Better TiVo experience
Better VoIP experience
Better computer-based experience
Better streaming-based experience
And more...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I don't know what my Dlinks GigE unmanaged switches are, but I've never had any problem getting 900mbps+ throughput with them. And they work well with my 60+ network devices at home. 

But now all my Minis and Roamio Pro are using MoCA and connected to one of my Dlink GigE switches with an Actiontec MoCA adoter with four GigE ports.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> I don't know what my Dlinks GigE unmanaged switches are, but I've never had any problem getting 900mbps+ throughput with them. And they work well with my 60+ network devices at home.
> 
> But now all my Minis and Roamio Pro are using MoCA and connected to one of my Dlink GigE switches with an Actiontec MoCA adoter with four GigE ports.


It's not always about raw speed. Latency is the root of many issues. Your switches may have supported priority tags. There's no guarantee that even expensive switches have the feature. It's up to the buyer/owner to check the specs on a product. I've spotted a few switches that most would call "cheap", that honor priority tags. It might have used to be a given, then some products may have made a choice to take it out of their budget models, explaining why some of us never heard of it before.

MoCA is a different standard, and could be compared to a subnet/segment. I'd guess it is optimized more for latency, than raw speed, given that it was designed for a pretty specific usage.

The most advanced ways of optimizing QoS and priority traffic involve subnets/segments/VLANS/etc. I have some switches that are "unmanaged", but allow configuration of these network optimizing subsets.

I've seen examples of this with wireless products, which allow for allocating the 5GHz band for A/V traffic, and applying "A/V optimizations".

Net neutrality within the home (all traffic being treated equal), used to be a complete "non-issue". As more A/V streaming becomes part of the traffic, and VoIP becomes more commonplace, traffic QoS/priority/basic-management becomes more and more desirable in home networks.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

I can't dispute that having QOS active appears to help your home network however Tivo does not implement any interaction with QOS tagging, they simply aren't that advanced.

As far as someone getting 900 mbps with unmanaged switches and questioning why TiVo's can't come remotely close to such, such is simply not remotely possible with TiVo's as there isn't enough processor power to put that much data across the network interface. TiVo's in terms of network throughput are as about advanced as a 1995 PC with a 10 mb ethernet interface, you do understand that there is a major difference between mbps and mbs? While series 5 Roamio TiVo's can transfer much faster than any other Tivo before them, Tivo dvrs were never designed with networking in mind, they are engineered to process video decoding and processing, file transfer was an afterthought.

The two reasons that Roamio Plus and pro have Gb ethernet is for one the chipset availability and they are designed to handle multiple 100mb clients. Unknown to most logically, a third reason is that the ethernet port on the plus & pro is technically part of 1gb switched port and not the direct interface to a single Gb ethernet interface. Internally the Roamio Plus and pro shares the actual ethernet, Stream and Moca interfaces connected internally (all shared) and the fourth port is the external connection that you connect to your network. From a design point of view, this why the Roamio basic only has 10/100 ethernet as it's interface is a direct Nic and not part of a shared ethernet switch. When you connect your Roamio Plus or PRO to your home network switch, this is in fact a second switched connection.


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## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

diphosphine said:


> I use two on my network, a Netgear Prosafe GS105 and a Netgear Prosafe GS108, with a TiVO Roamio Pro plugged directly into the GS105. I haven't had any problems.


Well, I forgot to write down the model # but I picked up a netgear FS108 and things have not been so successful as I'd hoped.

I ended up making a new thread here hoping some folks might be able to help me with this issue.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

nooneuknow said:


> It's not always about raw speed. Latency is the root of many issues. Your switches may have supported priority tags. There's no guarantee that even expensive switches have the feature. It's up to the buyer/owner to check the specs on a product. I've spotted a few switches that most would call "cheap", that honor priority tags. It might have used to be a given, then some products may have made a choice to take it out of their budget models, explaining why some of us never heard of it before.
> 
> MoCA is a different standard, and could be compared to a subnet/segment. I'd guess it is optimized more for latency, than raw speed, given that it was designed for a pretty specific usage.
> 
> ...


I've not needed to worry about QOS on FiOS. Since I'm on the 150/65 tier, internet bandwidth between my devices has not been an issue. I had tried it years ago when I had a Dlink router and it made no difference. Although I was on the 35/35 or 75/35 tier back then. I'm using an Asus router now.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

eboydog said:


> I can't dispute that having QOS active appears to help your home network however Tivo does not implement any interaction with QOS tagging, they simply aren't that advanced.
> 
> As far as someone getting 900 mbps with unmanaged switches and questioning why TiVo's can't come remotely close to such, such is simply not remotely possible with TiVo's as there isn't enough processor power to put that much data across the network interface. TiVo's in terms of network throughput are as about advanced as a 1995 PC with a 10 mb ethernet interface, you do understand that there is a major difference between mbps and mbs? While series 5 Roamio TiVo's can transfer much faster than any other Tivo before them, Tivo dvrs were never designed with networking in mind, they are engineered to process video decoding and processing, file transfer was an afterthought.
> 
> The two reasons that Roamio Plus and pro have Gb ethernet is for one the chipset availability and they are designed to handle multiple 100mb clients. Unknown to most logically, a third reason is that the ethernet port on the plus & pro is technically part of 1gb switched port and not the direct interface to a single Gb ethernet interface. Internally the Roamio Plus and pro shares the actual ethernet, Stream and Moca interfaces connected internally (all shared) and the fourth port is the external connection that you connect to your network. From a design point of view, this why the Roamio basic only has 10/100 ethernet as it's interface is a direct Nic and not part of a shared ethernet switch. When you connect your Roamio Plus or PRO to your home network switch, this is in fact a second switched connection.


I was getting 150mbps+ transfer rates with my Roamio Pro before the most recent update. But since the update the fastest transfer I've seen has been just over 100mbps. That was one of the reasons I switched to MoCA after the update. It seems a little quicker using MoCA right now.

Before the Ethernet connection was easily faster. Either way though the transfers speeds from my ROamio BAsic and Roamio Pro are not what the used to be when the previous software was installed. Fortunately though, from a user perspective, there is no difference. It just takes longer for my transfers to finish now.


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## jmbach (Jan 1, 2009)

2004raptor said:


> Well, I forgot to write down the model # but I picked up a netgear FS108 and things have not been so successful as I'd hoped.
> 
> I ended up making a new thread here hoping some folks might be able to help me with this issue.


Have you checked your cables and runs with a network tool. It's a good way to make sure when you punched the wires they have good connection and you don't have any wires flipped. This will help make sure you are following the 568 A/B standard. Not following the standard could affect your networks ability to connect. I have seen some equipment that tolerates non standard cabling and others that do not.


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## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

I definitely checked the 2 drops for the roamio and mini. I haven't checked my PC drop since I installed the wiring ~10 yrs ago. If I connect fine with my PC and have no other issues I wouldn't think there would be an issue.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

nooneuknow said:


> I learned the hard way that "cheap" switches give you exactly what you pay for.


Totally disagree, my $20 on sale TP-Link TL-SG108 green 1Gb 8-port switch has worked great with every device on it (Windows 7 Media Center PC + extenders, Tivo Mini, gaming PCs etc.). Packet priority has been irrelevant for my usage.


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## BiloxiGeek (Nov 18, 2001)

My Roamio connects to a Netgear GS108Tv2 in the living room. That switch connects to a Netgear GS724Tv3 in my office where the router and cable modem reside. Both smart switches so they have a web interface for management. I've had no problems network related so far.


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## joestan (Dec 25, 2007)

I have a roamio pro that uses a trendnet green gigabit switch naver had a problem


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

slowbiscuit said:


> Totally disagree, my $20 on sale TP-Link TL-SG108 green 1Gb 8-port switch has worked great with every device on it (Windows 7 Media Center PC + extenders, Tivo Mini, gaming PCs etc.). Packet priority has been irrelevant for my usage.


A good switch on sale, or being sold at a good price, is NOT the same as a "cheap" switch, in the context I meant.

I wound up paying $20 for each of my Netgear AV-Series 5-port switches with multiple priority handling options (NewEgg Sale). I got my Netgear 8-port mid-range priority-supporting switches for about $40 (NewEgg Sale). I got my Netgear 8-port "smart" switch for about $60 (NewEgg Sale).

I was speaking of the switches that are always the lowest price option, which the buyer might not bother to even read the specs on, before buying.

The everyday prices on the switches I bought are easily 3x what I paid for them (all-inclusive).

Just because something was on sale, or part of a promotion, doesn't make it "cheap" in the context I meant.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

joestan said:


> I have a roamio pro that uses a trendnet green gigabit switch naver had a problem


Great then. I have three 8-port ones, barely used, with everything they came with, including the boxes. Want to help me clear up some clutter?


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

BiloxiGeek said:


> My Roamio connects to a Netgear GS108Tv2 in the living room. That switch connects to a Netgear GS724Tv3 in my office where the router and cable modem reside. Both smart switches so they have a web interface for management. I've had no problems network related so far.


Those are some awesome switches! I have one of the GS108Tv2 ones.

Both of the switches you list honor priority/QoS and can assign priority/QoS. I just wanted to point that out, since you didn't.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

eboydog said:


> I can't dispute that having QOS active appears to help your home network however Tivo does not implement any interaction with QOS tagging, they simply aren't that advanced.
> 
> As far as someone getting 900 mbps with unmanaged switches and questioning why TiVo's can't come remotely close to such, such is simply not remotely possible with TiVo's as there isn't enough processor power to put that much data across the network interface. TiVo's in terms of network throughput are as about advanced as a 1995 PC with a 10 mb ethernet interface, you do understand that there is a major difference between mbps and mbs? While series 5 Roamio TiVo's can transfer much faster than any other Tivo before them, Tivo dvrs were never designed with networking in mind, they are engineered to process video decoding and processing, file transfer was an afterthought.
> 
> The two reasons that Roamio Plus and pro have Gb ethernet is for one the chipset availability and they are designed to handle multiple 100mb clients. Unknown to most logically, a third reason is that the ethernet port on the plus & pro is technically part of 1gb switched port and not the direct interface to a single Gb ethernet interface. Internally the Roamio Plus and pro shares the actual ethernet, Stream and Moca interfaces connected internally (all shared) and the fourth port is the external connection that you connect to your network. From a design point of view, this why the Roamio basic only has 10/100 ethernet as it's interface is a direct Nic and not part of a shared ethernet switch. When you connect your Roamio Plus or PRO to your home network switch, this is in fact a second switched connection.


You do realize that software can assign and use priority and QoS, independent of the hardware, right?

You do realize that certain traffic can be detected at the router as streaming service traffic, or VoIP traffic, and automatically assigned priority, right?

Apparently not, on either count...

Before you come back with more "TiVo is so unsophisticated, it can't possibly be helped by any of these things" replies, how about reading up on the many ways network traffic can be prioritized, without you even knowing it is happening...

Hypothetically (in reality, as well), a device that has no means of using network QoS or priority assigning, can still benefit, when low-priority traffic is assigned a low priority (like background traffic, and most PC-related traffic).


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

nooneuknow said:


> You do realize that software can assign and use priority and QoS, independent of the hardware, right?
> 
> You do realize that certain traffic can be detected at the router as streaming service traffic, or VoIP traffic, and automatically assigned priority, right?
> 
> ...


Oh course a higher quality switch can perform port based QOS however most residential switches don't come close in being able to due such due to low quality port forwarding speeds and the majority of such switch owners wouldn't know how to confugure such if their switch support such.

Tivo device at this time do not include the native QOS priority queuing in their protocol stack, that has nothing to do with hardware rather than the drivers written into the interface Tivo uses.

Yes if one wished to artificially preform port protocol priority forwarding with their TiVo, they could, however the Tivo protocol stack has no provisions for such in the manner that it's currently implemented. YES, an advanced ethernet switch might be able to do such but what is the purpose on a small residential home network that has on average less than 20 nodes? My issue is at hand isn't your knowledge of networking but the idiotic stance Tivo support makes when they state "Tivo doesn't support switches" when such is not true, the real fact is that data networking of Tivo devices is something of a afterthought and low support priority for Tivo rather than being a much more important task that desperately needs to be improved.

The issue of doing traffic profiling and prioritization is helpful on large multi node mixed IP networks that have thousands of nodes all competing for certain limits resources. A average home network with 3 TiVo's, 2 Pc's and few wireless clients doesn't fall under the category of needing such as any traffic priority established is lost once your local network data hit the single interface into your isp's Internet connection.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

eboydog said:


> Oh course a higher quality switch can perform port based QOS however most residential switches don't come close in being able to due such due to low quality port forwarding speeds and the majority of such switch owners wouldn't know how to confugure such if their switch support such.
> 
> Tivo device at this time do not include the native QOS priority queuing in their protocol stack, that has nothing to do with hardware rather than the drivers written into the interface Tivo uses.
> 
> ...


You missed a part I added:



nooneuknow said:


> Hypothetically (in reality, as well), a device that has no means of using network QoS or priority assigning, can still benefit, when low-priority traffic is assigned a low priority (like background traffic, and most PC-related traffic).


All I can say, but can't prove, is that my home networking experience (including my TiVo experience) has been greatly improved, since my third round of changing my switches.

I started out with Airlink 100Mbit - seemed OK, but needed more speed.
I switched to Airlink 1Gbit - Power supplies burned out after a few years.
I switched to Trendnet - Fry's had them cheap, two died within a year, replaced them.
I ended with Netgear - Best results and experience, hands-down.

The router has always been a Netgear WNDR3800, running Netgear's software. Very TiVo friendly, with TiVo-specific functions/capabilities.

I'm about to replace the router with a Netgear Centria N900 w/3TB NAS internal storage, DLNA, and automatic backup capability.

I'm a bit nervous, as the reviews on these routers went completely negative once I bought mine, and they are now at "fire-sale" pricing...


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## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

BiloxiGeek said:


> My Roamio connects to a Netgear GS108Tv2 in the living room. That switch connects to a Netgear GS724Tv3 in my office where the router and cable modem reside. Both smart switches so they have a web interface for management. I've had no problems network related so far.


I may try and borrow a managed switch to see what results I get. I assume you changed some settings, would you mind sharing them with me so I'll know where to start?



nooneuknow said:


> The router has always been a Netgear WNDR3800, running Netgear's software. Very TiVo friendly, with TiVo-specific functions/capabilities.
> 
> I'm about to replace the router with a Netgear Centria N900 w/3TB NAS internal storage, DLNA, and automatic backup capability.
> 
> I'm a bit nervous, as the reviews on these routers went completely negative once I bought mine, and they are now at "fire-sale" pricing...


Interesting you say that. My AP is a netgear N900. When my roamio was connected straight to it and my mini was connected straight to the linksys, the mini could see the shows on the roamio but errored if you tried to play them or watch live tv.

I keep saying I should change it from a AP back to a router (but still connected to my Linksys) to see if that works.

I'm just kinda tired of plugging/unplugging/rebooting.


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## jmbach (Jan 1, 2009)

Not sure about the settings when using the N900 as an AP, but make sure you turn off any firewall associated filters like content filtering, stateful inspection, etc. Some of the security features might be applied on the Lan side causing some communication problems.


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## aridon (Aug 31, 2006)

Didn't read the whole thread but the trick with switches is making sure the items you want networked are on the same sub net. 

Everything you want to talk to each other needs to be connected to the same box or router or they will be in different ip subnets. If you connect the switch to a router the items on the switch likely will not see the items in the router and vice versa.


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## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

jmbach said:


> Not sure about the settings when using the N900 as an AP, but make sure you turn off any firewall associated filters like content filtering, stateful inspection, etc. Some of the security features might be applied on the Lan side causing some communication problems.


I have it working as an AP now. I use to (well before I had the roamio or min) had it working as a router that was connected to my other router. It had dhcp off, etc.

I was just thinking out loud that I wonder if I turned off AP mode and reset it, would things have worked.


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## JDSunny46 (Nov 19, 2013)

I don't know how TiVo can "not support" switches. No one in their right mind is going to use their TiVo plugged directly into their high speed modem. Of COURSE you have a switch, either embedded into your router or separate. 

My assumption is that the "typical" install is a Tivo plugged in via ethernet to a router with a built in switch. Unless you have MoCa. But MoCa doesn't help you if you want to stream to your wireless device.

 not supporting switches. Psh.

Incidentally, I run a netgear FVS318N router with built in switch.... works fine for in house and out of home streaming on my iphone. I only have the one tivo, so I dunno about how it would work with another tivo streaming.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

Just an FYI to anyone buying one of these Netgear switches. There are rebates available for purchases through June 30th. Hopefully this link to the form works.


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## avmike (Jun 12, 2007)

I got tired of AC adapters dying on my cheap D-link gigabit switches (would always happen while I was out of town...).

I switched all my switches over to Dell Powerconnect 2816's picked up for $79 on ebay. They are fanless, web-managed with QoS, with integrated power supplies. They have been rock solid.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

JDSunny46 said:


> I don't know how TiVo can "not support" switches.


"Not support" means "won't help trouble-shoot."

This seems reasonable to me. We can't expect TiVo to help with problems that may be caused by another companies hardware.


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## twylie (Apr 6, 2014)

avmike said:


> I got tired of AC adapters dying on my cheap D-link gigabit switches (would always happen while I was out of town...).
> 
> I switched all my switches over to Dell Powerconnect 2816's picked up for $79 on ebay. They are fanless, web-managed with QoS, with integrated power supplies. They have been rock solid.


I've also had good luck with the Dell 27XX and 28XX series managed switches. Currently using a 2724 in my main wiring closet, 2816 in a Home Theater, 2708 in an office. I also have a trendnet and Netgear 5 and 8 port GigE that work well, but the management features of the Dell stuff is a nice bonus for the money.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

avmike said:


> I got tired of AC adapters dying on my cheap D-link gigabit switches (would always happen while I was out of town...).
> 
> I switched all my switches over to Dell Powerconnect 2816's picked up for $79 on ebay. They are fanless, web-managed with QoS, with integrated power supplies. They have been rock solid.


I've been using the Dlink GigE switches for many years. I used a dozen of the older versions years ago and I've been using fifteen of the newer versions for several years. I've never had a power supply die. Although all my switches and any other electronics are on UPSs. But in my experience Dlink has been rock solid.

Prior to the Dlinks, around eight years ago I used around half a dozen netgear GigE switches, but I switched to the Dlink. And prior to the Netgear switches I used Linksys GigE switches. So in the eleven or twele years I've used over three dozen GigE switches at home. I've yet to have a power supply die in any of them. But the Linksys switches were the worst. But that was their first model consumer GigE siwtch. And it needed a fan inside to keeps things cool so it made a bunch of noise.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

eboydog said:


> The issue of doing traffic profiling and prioritization is helpful on large multi node mixed IP networks that have thousands of nodes all competing for certain limits resources. A average home network with 3 TiVo's, 2 Pc's and few wireless clients doesn't fall under the category of needing such as any traffic priority established is lost once your local network data hit the single interface into your isp's Internet connection.


Yep, this is the point he's missing, or he had some really bad setup that he 'fixed' by getting new switches. Priority forwarding is irrelevant for even a cheap GigE setup in 99.99% of residential use.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep, this is the point he's missing, or he had some really bad setup that he 'fixed' by getting new switches. Priority forwarding is irrelevant for even a cheap GigE setup in 99.99% of residential use.


I would agree, though I wouldn't go quite that far. It depends much more strongly on applications than hardware or network complexity. For instance, somebody who does a lot with P2P/torrents may have need for either priority forwarding or some other control mechanism.

I've got a more complicated home network than most (5 routers) and don't see a need for priority forwarding - I have 900 mbps throughput when and where I need it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> I would agree, though I wouldn't go quite that far. It depends much more strongly on applications than hardware or network complexity. For instance, somebody who does a lot with P2P/torrents may have need for either priority forwarding or some other control mechanism.
> 
> I've got a more complicated home network than most (5 routers) and don't see a need for priority forwarding - I have 900 mbps throughput when and where I need it.


And I use one router with several APs and fifteen unmanaged switches. I can also get 900mbps+ throughput when and where I need it. The only thing slowing me down is the gigabit connections since my pc's could transfer several times faster if they weren't limited by the slower GigE connections.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

DeltaOne said:


> "Not support" means "won't help trouble-shoot."
> 
> This seems reasonable to me. We can't expect TiVo to help with problems that may be caused by another companies hardware.


I tend to agree. But, the translation shouldn't be our burden. It should be given to us in the correct form. It should also be reported, exactly as we were told, when we post what we were told on here. Not all of this always happens, all of the time.

However, the support-bots at TiVo's outsourced call center are often only smart enough to repeat computer-generated responses. I have no doubt in my mind that people get told "Sorry, we don't support switches".

I also have no doubt in my mind that even if people were told "Sorry, we don't *provide* support *for* switches", those two words could go unheard, or would just not show up in what gets reported here as what they were told.

Given the kind of support consumers get these days, from nearly any company, I wouldn't be at all surprised at anything, no matter how ridiculous, that a person might be told by a support call center...


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## Ieolus (Oct 20, 2006)

I have my Roamio Pro attached to an Ethernet over Powerline adapter, which feeds to a gigabit switch, then into my router. My minis are connected via MoCA only.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

I give up on trying to help when it comes to switches, when it comes to *QoS/Priority *matters. I'll try to make this my final post on the matter.

Focusing on quality, rather than raw speed, helped me a lot. If I had some bad setup, or bad cables, which does happen, now my networking equipment has the ability to tell me that I do (which didn't come with "cheap" low-end equipment). Even though it does have that ability, it has all been changed, or re-configured, multiple times, including ALL the cabling.

I'll point-out that I've had more equipment, than I've listed so far. I just chose to limit going back as far as my first reliable Gbit router w/wireless, which I still have, still in use.

Yes, all my networking equipment is on UPS backup. That seems to be another bragging-right amongst the "elite", so I may as well throw it out there. It seems like I burn-out more power supplies since I went this route, but I might as well brag about it...

It never ceases to amaze me, that help-oriented threads, where people are asking for help, or purchase advice, get overrun by "experts", some of which do nothing but brag about the top speeds they achieve, and how everything is on UPS backup. That's great. I could even be happy for you, if you stopped bragging long enough to say how you got there.

Such "experts" should know that speed isn't everything. VoIP is a great example of a network stream that requires very little speed (VERY, VERY, VERY, little), yet will work terribly if the latency isn't kept to a minimum.

What's VoIP have to do with anything? Besides becoming more widespread in home use, things like Netflix and other streaming services also can be disrupted by latency.

Since all the experts are here, with their perfectly distributed wired and wireless networks, limited only by industry standards, I guess there's no need for my input.

Last words on QoS/Priority are: Latency and overhead STILL MATTER. As raw speed increases, VERY often does LATENCY and overhead. Those who disagree with this should spend less time here, and go fix all the Wiki pages that say these things, and help re-draft the standards that also say so. Maybe you could also submit your network configurations as the cure to this pesky issue. Don't forget to tell speedtest.net that their pingtest.net site is irrelevent, due to raw speed. Good luck with that.

Sorry for the explosion. This is what happens when I hold-back and try to just play nice. I'm still trying to help, where I can, when I can.

I'm also so sick of there always having to be 4x more posts per thread, due to "I don't have that problem" posts. The last thing anybody looking for help wants to hear is "I don't have that problem", followed by how great everything works for somebody else. While near-perfection does spontaneously happen, it's not the normal experience for everybody. Those who didn't get it out-of-box, as-is, don't benefit from bragging rights posts.

I'm not mad at the majority of people. I'm not slinging poo, and then running away. I'll still be here to see the inevitable fallout, when I go nuclear.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

midas said:


> Just an FYI to anyone buying one of these Netgear switches. There are rebates available for purchases through June 30th. Hopefully this link to the form works.


Ah, yes. That's what nudged me to get better equipment. Besides a good price at checkout, the combo-rebate. I don't usually buy anything with a rebate, or just don't send it in (often gets the same result as sending the rebate in - never recieved claim).

Just a data-point: The NewEgg reviews on the Netgear combo-rebates have started coming in as being a pre-paid card, only good for purchase of more Netgear equipment. I can not confirm this yet (no rebate received yet).

It's also worth noting that this would be the third month of "Buy Netgear products, in this list, for this month, and get up to a $__.__ pre-paid card" promotion.

If NewEgg didn't make the checkout price a good, or great, deal on it's own, I'd never let a rebate sway my purchase decisions.

Then, there's a whole new set of complications if you could return the product, due to not liking it, but gave-away that right by cutting off the UPC code. Then, you can only go through product warranty, and are stuck with what you bought (or a refurbished replacement, and paying shipping).


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Since I went nuclear over people not posting "how they got there" along with their "no problems here" posts:

If I didn't add two VoIP units to my home network, I wouldn't have discovered a reason to use (turn on and configure) QoS and get switches that honor the Priority tags. I might not have explored router settings other than "off" or "auto" (which likely works fine for most people).

If not for that, I'd still be complaining how terrible Netflix works on any TiVo I've ever owned, including the base Roamio x3.

It took a lot of trial and error, but it made VoIP as good as landlines. By accident, it made my TiVo Roamio experience better. All those little annoyances with the delay of the ads appearing delaying me from deleting a program, reduced C133 errors with the TiVo service (ones caused by my network), lots of things to cross-off "what bothers me". I share this, hoping it helps somebody, and my list gets longer... That's not right...

If just plugging in the two VoIP boxes directly into two router ports would have worked for me, I wouldn't know that some switches don't honor Priority tags/QoS. I needed to be able to plug them in downstream, and didn't want to run dedicated cables to avoid my existing switches.

Some additional tweaking, once all the $10-less (or even equal-price) switches were out, and I almost don't want to install my new router. Things are finally working in harmony (network-wise). I only spent more than $10 greater price to have some level of switch diagnostics, and figured a few management functions couldn't hurt.

Right now, people can either check the specs on a switch they buy, or blindly buy whatever is convenient. I'm saying that if you choose to check for one item, you might get one that supports 802.1P priority tags, for the same price as one that doesn't. Even if it doesn't help you, what did you lose by picking it over the one that didn't support it?

Fast-forward to some point in the future, and you install a VoIP device, and want to have it downstream of your router, passing through that switch... If it doesn't want to work, or works poorly, will you remember what might be the problem?

I don't think there is more I can say, and I'll just have to take my floggings for blowing-up.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Do you need QoS on your *router* if you want good VOIP? Maybe, if you upload a lot and/or torrent. Do you need it on your GigE *switches*? For all but the edge cases, no, for all the reasons mentioned here.

And yeah, you're once again blowing this small molehill into a huge mountain which is kind of your modus operandi here.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

slowbiscuit said:


> And yeah, you're once again blowing this small molehill into a huge mountain which is kind of your modus operandi here.


At least I already admitted it, and am trying to just leave it be, in as dignified a manner I can do so. Which, is why I'm not even commenting on your position.

To each their own network, and the freedom to choose it, and use it, in the manner they choose. Best of luck & hope you enjoyed the nuclear explosion in Nevada.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

nooneuknow said:


> At least I already admitted it, and am trying to just leave it be, in as dignified a manner I can do so. Which, is why I'm not even commenting on your position.
> 
> To each their own network, and the freedom to choose it, and use it, in the manner they choose. Best of luck & hope you enjoyed the nuclear explosion in Nevada.


The problem is that you were recommending managed switches as a magic bullet to solve everybody's network problems. It's not.

Managed switches are the right answer if

1. You determine you have latency issues on some applications caused by traffic on others. A small percentage of folks with network issues here have this problem (we know because when they do solve their problems, it's not with managed switches, except in rare cases).

2. You have the network background to both set up a managed switch to solve your problem, and maintain that switch correctly as your needs in the home change. If we suddenly replaced all switches of TivoCommunity members with managed switches, I would wager large sums of money that we would have many more network problems than we solved. Unless managed switches have changed in the past 10 years, they are not simple, expensive, and very non-standard. The average TiVo user does not have the background to understand most of the settings that they need to make.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

CrispyCritter said:


> The problem is that you were recommending managed switches as a magic bullet to solve everybody's network problems. It's not. <snip>


Completely unmanaged switches, with no configuration options even available to the user can support and honor the QoS/Priority standards in question.

I started off with a simple, generous, post with a link to some "priority by the color-coded port you plug into" switches, which will work on any network - switches that I have used, still do use, and NewEgg had on sale, complete with promo code. I'm such a bad person. Shame on me.

Those are unmanaged switches. Check the specs and listing area before sticking your foot in your own mouth. There are plenty of completely unmanaged switches that can honor QoS/Priority tagging. Just because I spoke of some other switches that had *limited* management functions, in the course of discussion doesn't equate to recommending every switch I speak of to all.

Don't twist it into something more, just to keep me going, so you can keep arguing with anything or everything I say.

I'm trying to drop the subject, and you conveniently put words in my mouth, knowing I won't allow that to go un-called.

I'm not the only predictable one on here.

EDIT/ADD: My original, sinister, post link: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10096306#post10096306


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## GmanTiVo (Mar 9, 2003)

2004raptor said:


> I guess I should have asked in my original post. If you do have a switch that works for roamio/minis would you mind sharing the make/model #.
> 
> Hopefully we can make a list of a few that work to maybe save some headaches down the road.


I posted this in another thread...


GmanTiVo said:


> Update:
> 
> I now have completed my CAT6a and CAT6 rewiring (Monoprice.com rocks) and removed the MoCa Bridge & all COAX connectios.
> I no longer have any whatsoever latency, nor other connectivity, streaming, ect issues between the Roamio Pro and 3 Minis.
> ...


I bought 5 of the Netgear GS108 on ebay (NIB for <$25 each , do some searching 

Edit (after reading some of the other posts): I'm no network wizard more like J6P so have only done minor QoS and Satatic IP address tweeking in the router....


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

The issue of how complex a person can configure their home data network and personal ego's are derailing the purpose of this message thread. 

Perhaps this topic can be salvaged if we try to get back to the point. OP was asking for input on home network switches that others have successfully used. The majority of Tivo owners are not network engineers, have no care about QOS and may have no need for a ethernet switch beyond what their multi port home router/wireless access point provides. 

TiVo support has clouded this issue by declaring that "switches" are not supported which per my multiple conversations with them is due to their inability to support the multitudes of different configurations which they can not control or anticipate the endless possibilities of configurations. 

Please post your success and failures of home network switches, I'm curious to know more those that work and don't work. To argue the merits of how your advanced home network is configured provides no help for those who don't know the difference between an ethernet cable and a regular old school telephone line other that the ethernet cable appears to have a larger plug. 

Let's see if we can keep it civil, for those who are knowledgeable of data networks, perhaps we can help those who don't have a solid understanding and can provide help to improve their network performance with our assitance. Arguing the merits of why your way is better than mine doesn't bring anything helpful to the community.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

eboydog said:


> The issue of how complex a person can configure their home data network and personal ego's are derailing the purpose of this message thread.
> 
> Perhaps this topic can be salvaged if we try to get back to the point. OP was asking for input on home network switches that others have successfully used. The majority of Tivo owners are not network engineers, have no care about QOS and may have no need for a ethernet switch beyond what their multi port home router/wireless access point provides.
> 
> ...


As much as it seems that I'm the one being complex and egotistical, as you say, I agree with you.

I still think the whole "TiVo doesn't support switches" context is really "TiVo doesn't provide support for switches", or could even be that TiVo CS might confuse a network switch with a HDMI switch, and the latter is more of a support issue headache for TiVo, than network switches.

If you strip away the parts of my posts that speak about QoS & 802.1p priority tags, and everybody gets it clear that I didn't ever say TiVo users need managed or even "smart" switches, I think I already gave all the data-points you say we need. If not, I'm open for some civil questions, or friendly discussion.


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## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

2004raptor said:


> I've run into a situation and was curious if anyone has been successful connecting a roamio to their network via Ethernet cable and a switch (no Moca).


I'm using an old Netgear 10/100 5 port switch with my Mini. Switch is connected via MoCa. Don't recall the model number and not sure it would really help anyway since it's an old model that is no longer offered. Never had any problems with it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

So a heads up for anyone wanting to use the Actiontec GigE MoCA adapter.(model ECB3500T01).
It's GigE switch is lacking. It works perfectly fine for the speeds from several TiVos. But for high speed GigE transfer, like pC to PC it is lacking. 

My plan was to have all my TiVo associated equipment connected directly to the four port GigE switch of the Actiontec or connected by MoCA. But I realized when making transfers between my TiVo Desktop PC and another PC conncted to my Dlink switches that the throughput speeds were only around 460mbps.

So I connected my TiVo Desktop PC back to my Dlink Switch. And left my TiVos over MoCA and ethernet connected to the Actiontec. With one GigE port connected to a Dlink GigE switch. So now my TiVo Desktop PC will get the 960mbps throughput speeds I expect from the Dlink when transferring between my other PCs and still have no issues with the concurrent transfers to/from my TiVos which are under 300mbps.


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## Snook (Dec 16, 2013)

Here is my setup, my Minis are connected to a D-Link (DGS-1005G) daisy chained to a D-Link (DGS-1008G) where the Roamio Plus is connected. http://www.gliffy.com/go/publish/5751284


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## brewman (Jun 29, 2003)

I have a Mini, and it is paired with a Roamio with 3 switches in between (2-managed, 1-unmanaged). All connections are over Cat 6 (no wireless).

No problems to date.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

I use only the highest quality premium switches. My current ones feature full 10/100 operation with a huge 8 ports. [/sarcasm] They're $9 and from Monoprice, with an old router thrown in there as a switch for good measure. They all work fine.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

NewEgg has these on sale for *$19.99* again:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122363&ignorebbr=1

NETGEAR 5 Port Gigabit Desktop Switch (GS605AV)

*$29.99
+ USD $10 off w/ promo code NTWMAYX14, ends 5/21*
5 out of 5 eggs (37) | Write a Review
In stock. Limit 5 per customer.

10x faster than Fast Ethernet
Incorporates Plug-and-Play ease of use
128K on-chip packet buffering
MAC address database: 4,000
Auto Uplink
*Honors IEEE 802.1p priority tags*

They are the best *unmanaged* switches I have ever used, and currently use them at all my network endpoints, with my Roamios on the medium priority ports, high used for VoIP, and low for PC connections.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Decent if you want a 5-port, but you can get just as good 8-ports like the one I mentioned earlier for the same money all the time (on sale). And yes, it works fine without priority tags.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

slowbiscuit said:


> Decent if you want a 5-port, but you can get just as good 8-ports like the one I mentioned earlier for the same money all the time (on sale). And yes, it works fine without priority tags.


It works better *for me*, using the 5-port AV-series. I think having two VoIP devices is what really makes me love them so much. I usually don't get anything with less than eight ports. There's nothing stopping adding another switch to any one of the priority-by-color ports. I'm doing exactly that, in one room, and it works using another AV-series switch, or a "normal" one.

I need the priority for my VoIP. The way my TiVos work better with these switches may be just due to me investigating QoS on my consumer-grade router, and turning it on (and turning uPnP off). I did set up hard rules by MAC addresses, but it was probably only helpful for the VoIP devices (no issues with them since). Just turning QoS on, and leaving the traffic priority up to the "auto" setting, would likely have been fine, if I wasn't so intent on making my BasicTalk VoIP work as well as a landline.

The only thing that bothers me (at this time), is that every time I post a deal alert, I find myself feeling like I shouldn't bother, if all it's going to lead to is blow-back, or naysayers.

Seriously. I made sure (this time) to post the deal, and simply state I've had the best luck, performance, reliability, and overall experience with them. That is something that most people will do if they had the best experience with a product, and share that there is a sale.

I made sure to NOT post anything stating that these switches are required, or that could be interpreted/misinterpreted as stating so. I just shared the sale, and gave a brief endorsement of how happy I am with them. TiVo used to be the dead-last device I'd use for Netflix or Hulu Plus. Since I found these switches, installed them, and turned on QoS on my router, TiVo is now at the top of the list. I see almost instant SuperHD, and no longer suffer reboots while using, or exiting Netflix.

TCF, forgive me, for apparently I have sinned, by not being selfish, sharing a deal, and sharing my experience.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Posting deals should always be good. I would think most people are interested in seeing when deals are available.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

nooneuknow said:


> TCF, forgive me, for apparently I have sinned, by not being selfish, sharing a deal, and sharing my experience.


Jeez man, you really need to grow a thicker skin. I was merely pointing out that for the same money you could get an 8-port switch instead of a 5 that would probably work just as well for 99% of the folks here. No need to go into yet another lengthy woe is me wail about how everyone hates you.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

slowbiscuit said:


> Jeez man, you really need to grow a thicker skin. I was merely pointing out that for the same money you could get an 8-port switch instead of a 5 that would probably work just as well for 99% of the folks here. No need to go into yet another lengthy woe is me wail about how everyone hates you.


Yeah, I guess I'm still a bit edgy about what happened the last time I posted that NewEgg had them on sale, and got a bit "preachy" about how great they worked for me, and why I believed they worked so great...


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

That's a very interesting concept, to have QoS ports in an unmanaged switch. The one place I could see it being super useful would be for a Microcell/AirRave/Network Extender/Ooma adapter, for most other things, QoS is probably way overkill. You can also do it all manually through the router, but I guess that can be kind of a pain.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Bigg said:


> That's a very interesting concept, to have QoS ports in an unmanaged switch. The one place I could see it being super useful would be for a Microcell/AirRave/Network Extender/Ooma adapter, for most other things, QoS is probably way overkill. You can also do it all manually through the router, but I guess that can be kind of a pain.


No real disagreement from me, at all.

I just want to point out that what is different about this particular (Netgear GS605AV) switch is the manual "QoS/priority by color" method, while it will also allow the QoS designation of the port to be overridden, if QoS is already in the packets, due to a router, or another switch, usually of the managed type, which is adding tags. So, it can assign by port color, or fallback to just "honoring" what is already assigned/present.

There's no shortage of completely unmanaged switches that will "honor" the QoS/Priority tags. Many of them don't advertise the fact. It's only in the fine print under "supported standards" or "product specifications/details". Even the NewEgg product page leaves it out of the main profile, and only lists it under the specifications tab.

More often that most would expect, you can buy an equal quality and equal price switch that supports honoring the tags. If the tags are not present, those switches that do, just act like any other switch.

If it always (or very often) took paying a premium to get a switch that at least honors QoS, I wouldn't be such an advocate of checking the specs, before making a purchase decision. I never told anybody to rip out existing switches, in favor of these (just that I did do so). Even for me, the by-color way is being overridden, after taking the time to assign a profile to each MAC address on my network, via my router, via the "Internet QoS" menu. It doesn't just manage the internet side, it manages both sides.

It's literally a "QoS/Priority for dummies" switch, for people who want QoS, but don't want to have to configure anything (or minimal configuration). That it can still be used just to honor what already exists, makes it the best of both worlds (novice/advanced), and not limited by having the features it does.

Like you said, VoIP (like Ooma) can benefit from it. That's my #1 reason I love them. I don't have to plug my VoIP boxes directly into my router anymore.

Also, how often do you see a product with 100% positive reviews, like this one has? Last point, which was also in the reviews, is that the LEDs are dimmed-down, like a proper piece of AV equipment. Most Netgear products tend to have blinding LEDs, and a few don't have LEDs.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

But if you have the bandwidth, is QoS even needed? I'm on the 150/65 tier on FiOS. But even when I was on the 35/35 tier in 2007/2008, I never needed to worry about QoS. Everything worked without any prioritization since there was more than enough bandwidth, up and down, to go around.

Now at my GFs house I have setup QoS in her router since she is on a slow DSL connection. WHich does help some. But you can only do so much with a slow connection.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> But if you have the bandwidth, is QoS even needed? I'm on the 150/65 tier on FiOS. But even when I was on the 35/35 tier in 2007/2008, I never needed to worry about QoS. Everything worked without any prioritization since there was more than enough bandwidth, up and down, to go around.
> 
> Now at my GFs house I have setup QoS in her router since she is on a slow DSL connection. WHich does help some. But you can only do so much with a slow connection.


I guess I'll leave it up to you to say if 80/40 (plus powerboost) is slow.

VoIP uses only a few k at best quality. It's highly subject to latency problems, just like newscast conversations taking place on opposite sides of the planet. Not the best example of the "latency" in the manner I am trying to speak of, but the result is about the same. Also, if packets get delayed too long, there will be garbling, or corruption, of the stream, as the packets arrive out-of-order, or are dropped.

I'd very often be so far out of sync with the other party on a VoIP call to a store a few blocks away, it was easier to just use a cell phone.

In past exchanges we've had about this you keep repeating things along the lines how with gigE, QoS really has no place in the equation, and/or talking about modern internet speeds being so fast. Then I keep saying that higher speeds don't improve latency, but instead tends to increase it (lower/lesser is better on latency, higher/more is worse).

I use the speedtest sites, which give my internet an A+ rating, but the tests designed for VoIP testing, say it's terrible.

I think that "powerboost" (boosting speeds momentarily, then throttling them back) is the root of my problems with VoIP, and some other things, like Netflix.

With QoS on, my router throttles the speed-boosting, and gives more of a flat and consistent speed. I believe this autocorrects the latency problem. The improvement I see when running tests with QoS show an unmistakable and consistent improvement in VoIP suitability tests, and all I lose is a few seconds of doubled, or tripled, speed. What on earth do I need < 5 seconds of boost for, anyway? It's just another way Cox gets to make exaggerated claims, then cover themselves by putting real expectations in fine print (which are still not guaranteed minimums).

In my quest to make VoIP work on two BasicTalk (discount Walmart Vonage) VoIP boxes for two "lines", and equal the experience of two landlines, I succeeded. On top of that, I now actually prefer to use my Roamios for streaming most supported internet video. Before this, I'd rather find something else to do, than use a TiVo for internet streaming. It was just that awful of an experience. This is why I always post when those switches go on sale, and speak so highly of them. While TiVos don't support QoS, if they are plugged into a QoS-by-color port, or I assign the TiVo MAC a priority, and the switch at least honors the tags, there will still be a difference in latency from the router to the switch.

Ethernet switches use "store and forward". QoS says "these packets going to this device get to go first", in the simplest way I can possibly describe it.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

nooneuknow said:


> Ethernet switches use "store and forward". QoS says "these packets going to this device get to go first", in the simplest way I can possibly describe it.


And unless you are saturating your GigE network with full speed internal file transfers on a regular basis, most folks will never notice a diff. Router-wise I completely agree that QoS could be necessary for reliable VoIP quality.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

nooneuknow said:


> Most Netgear products tend to have blinding LEDs, and a few don't have LEDs.


I have a LOT of devices that have black or white electrical tape on them just to hide the absurd LEDs.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> I have a LOT of devices that have black or white electrical tape on them just to hide the absurd LEDs.


I have been using LightDIMs to cover bright LEDs. They have worked very well. They have some that block 100% of the light and some that block around 80% of the light.

http://www.amazon.com/LightDims-Original-Strength®/dp/B009WSJNCW


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> I have been using LightDIMs to cover bright LEDs. They have worked very well. They have some that block 100% of the light and some that block around 80% of the light.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/LightDims-Original-Strength®/dp/B009WSJNCW


Those are pretty cool! 80% would be my choice, since I like to still be able to use the lights for diagnostics, just not have them blasting in my face.


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## Alf Tanner (Jan 18, 2014)

I've got 3 gigabit switches on my network and 2 routers. 2 Tivo minis and a roamio pro work well and I've had no issues, including a ridiculous torture test I engineered for the whole network.

Main router: Asus n66u
upstairs router: Linksys e4200v1
downstairs switch 1: Dlink green 8 port unmanaged switch
downstairs switch 2: tenda 5 port unmanaged switch
upstairs switch 1: dlink 8 port smart switch.

The most things I've seen on my network map was 40+ at once. I went through and wired everything with cat5e that could be wired, and a few months later replaced everything but a few cables with shielded cat6 cable.


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## Alf Tanner (Jan 18, 2014)

eboydog said:


> I can't dispute that having QOS active appears to help your home network however Tivo does not implement any interaction with QOS tagging, they simply aren't that advanced.
> 
> As far as someone getting 900 mbps with unmanaged switches and questioning why TiVo's can't come remotely close to such, such is simply not remotely possible with TiVo's as there isn't enough processor power to put that much data across the network interface. TiVo's in terms of network throughput are as about advanced as a 1995 PC with a 10 mb ethernet interface, you do understand that there is a major difference between mbps and mbs? While series 5 Roamio TiVo's can transfer much faster than any other Tivo before them, Tivo dvrs were never designed with networking in mind, they are engineered to process video decoding and processing, file transfer was an afterthought.
> 
> *The two reasons that Roamio Plus and pro have Gb ethernet is for one the chipset availability and they are designed to handle multiple 100mb clients. Unknown to most logically, a third reason is that the ethernet port on the plus & pro is technically part of 1gb switched port and not the direct interface to a single Gb ethernet interface. Internally the Roamio Plus and pro shares the actual ethernet, Stream and Moca interfaces connected internally (all shared) and the fourth port is the external connection that you connect to your network.* From a design point of view, this why the Roamio basic only has 10/100 ethernet as it's interface is a direct Nic and not part of a shared ethernet switch. When you connect your Roamio Plus or PRO to your home network switch, this is in fact a second switched connection.


This part is super important for anyone with a stout home networking setup like I have. using MoCa + ethernet will wreck your throughput speed to any device with a wired ethernet cable or wireless. I did quite a bit of testing with my setup before disabling the moca, pulling up carpet and running an ethernet connection to my previously MoCa connected Tivo mini.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Alf Tanner said:


> This part is super important for anyone with a stout home networking setup like I have. using MoCa + ethernet will wreck your throughput speed to any device with a wired ethernet cable or wireless. I did quite a bit of testing with my setup before disabling the moca, pulling up carpet and running an ethernet connection to my previously MoCa connected Tivo mini.


HUH? Why would that cause MoCA to be slower? It sounds like MoCA, the Stream, the TiVo itself, and the external port each have either a 100 or 1000mbps connection to the internal gig switch, so where's the bottleneck?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

It shouldn't make things slower. You could have several switches chained together, like I actually do, and it makes no difference. I can still get 960Mbps throughput going PC to PC through six GigE switches.

And my MoCA speeds have been the same as my Ethernet speeds on my Roamio Pro. The issue for me has been the new TiVo software. Since the new software was installed the speeds have been much slower than they used to be.


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## Alf Tanner (Jan 18, 2014)

Bigg said:


> HUH? Why would that cause MoCA to be slower? It sounds like MoCA, the Stream, the TiVo itself, and the external port each have either a 100 or 1000mbps connection to the internal gig switch, so where's the bottleneck?


I was troubleshooting slow speeds with the help of people on the smallnetbuilder forums, and one of the suggestions was to test everything with the mini connected via MoCa then ethernet. When MoCa was enabled through kmttg I was only getting 65-80mbps of transfer speed to my main desktop, with MoCa disabled I was getting sustained over 110mbps transfers. From that I concluded that the ethernet connection slows down with MoCa enabled, like if when both were enabled the connection from the Roamio negotiated down to 100mbps.


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## Alf Tanner (Jan 18, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> It shouldn't make things slower. You could have several switches chained together, like I actually do, and it makes no difference. I can still get 960Mbps throughput going PC to PC through six GigE switches.
> 
> And my MoCA speeds have been the same as my Ethernet speeds on my Roamio Pro. The issue for me has been the new TiVo software. Since the new software was installed the speeds have been much slower than they used to be.


I did all of my transfer speed testing prior to the spring update so it could be different now, but that was my experience prior to the spring update. I've got 3 switches on my home network and a second router acting like a switch with dhcp, nat, and qos disabled and everything hooked to the lan ports.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Alf Tanner said:


> I was troubleshooting slow speeds with the help of people on the smallnetbuilder forums, and one of the suggestions was to test everything with the mini connected via MoCa then ethernet. When MoCa was enabled through kmttg I was only getting 65-80mbps of transfer speed to my main desktop, with MoCa disabled I was getting sustained over 110mbps transfers. From that I concluded that the ethernet connection slows down with MoCa enabled, like if when both were enabled the connection from the Roamio negotiated down to 100mbps.


Oh, you're talking about the TiVo's internal processing and software then. It sounded like you were talking about the network in the previous post. I'm surprised that the Roamios would run into issues with this, as they have a lot more muscle than the Premieres. I don't think they are all of the sudden dropped to 100mbps. That makes no sense, as you can mix 100 and 1000 devices on the same switch without issues. Even if that somehow happened, you'd be sitting right up against a "wall" so to speak, with the transfer rate rock solid right around 91mbps.


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## Alf Tanner (Jan 18, 2014)

Bigg said:


> Oh, you're talking about the TiVo's internal processing and software then. It sounded like you were talking about the network in the previous post. I'm surprised that the Roamios would run into issues with this, as they have a lot more muscle than the Premieres. I don't think they are all of the sudden dropped to 100mbps. That makes no sense, as you can mix 100 and 1000 devices on the same switch without issues. Even if that somehow happened, you'd be sitting right up against a "wall" so to speak, with the transfer rate rock solid right around 91mbps.


I really have no idea whether it was the network part of the Tivo or its internal processing, but in my case it was definitely faster to disable MoCa and connect wired. I should have specified that in my original post, my apologies.

There were some Tivo people on the SNB forums or at least one that was chiming in with his experiences. He thought there may be some sort of internal conflict with the tivo switch inside the roamio that has a bottleneck or just doesnt work as fast if you have both moca and ethernet enabled.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

The bandwidth of moca is different than a single switched Ethernet port, every device on moca takes away from the total bandwidth available. Myself, having 3 minis, a premiere and a Xbox on my moca kills the throughput on my transfers, common misunderstanding is comparing 100Mb/1tb Ethernet to the theoretical 271mbps of moca.

If you know old school networking, moca is not a switched media, it more like a the old Ethernet hubs were only one interface can talk at any given time. What we all are waiting for is for TiVo to implement Moca 2.0, despite being approved, no one has yet to introduce Moca 2.0 retail device yet to the consumer, its all Moca 1.1.

Problem is that TiVo is moving away from the transfer content design and is favoring the streaming concept which doesn't need high bandwidth paths so they apparently aren't in a hurry to embrace Moca 2.0 otherwise we would have had such with the roamios. They are more concerned with copy protection of content, in a few more years I fear TiVo to go and pyTivo will be things of the past.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Alf Tanner said:


> I really have no idea whether it was the network part of the Tivo or its internal processing, but in my case it was definitely faster to disable MoCa and connect wired. I should have specified that in my original post, my apologies.
> 
> There were some Tivo people on the SNB forums or at least one that was chiming in with his experiences. He thought there may be some sort of internal conflict with the tivo switch inside the roamio that has a bottleneck or just doesnt work as fast if you have both moca and ethernet enabled.


So are you talking running OVER MoCA is slower, or over Ethernet is slower WHEN you have MoCA also connected? I thought you were referring to the latter. If you are referring to the former, than that's just a limitation of MoCA. MoCA can get up to ~90mbps or even a bit faster (although the adapters are limited by their 100mbps ports), but it can vary a lot depending on your setup.

If it's just that the whole thing is slower when MoCA is running, that has to be some sort of processing bottleneck, as the internet switch should have a full 100 or 1000mbps to each device that it is connected to.



eboydog said:


> The bandwidth of moca is different than a single switched Ethernet port, every device on moca takes away from the total bandwidth available. Myself, having 3 minis, a premiere and a Xbox on my moca kills the throughput on my transfers, common misunderstanding is comparing 100Mb/1tb Ethernet to the theoretical 271mbps of moca.


1tb Ethernet? I WANT!  Yes, it's shared, but it's not just split, if a device isn't transmitting, the full bandwidth is still available for other users. It's also more like wireless, where it never really gets close to it's theoretical maximum, although it's a lot more consistent than wireless, which is why it's good for video.



> If you know old school networking, moca is not a switched media, it more like a the old Ethernet hubs were only one interface can talk at any given time. What we all are waiting for is for TiVo to implement Moca 2.0, despite being approved, no one has yet to introduce Moca 2.0 retail device yet to the consumer, its all Moca 1.1.


There's a a Netgear wireless access point that has MoCA 2.0, but no adapter for the other end unless you buy two wireless access points...



> Problem is that TiVo is moving away from the transfer content design and is favoring the streaming concept which doesn't need high bandwidth paths so they apparently aren't in a hurry to embrace Moca 2.0 otherwise we would have had such with the roamios. They are more concerned with copy protection of content, in a few more years I fear TiVo to go and pyTivo will be things of the past.


MoCA 2.0 hasn't been implemented anywhere... if it was even available, they probably didn't want to take a risk with it... They also don't need the bandwidth, since it would only work for DVR to DVR or DVR to PC transfers.

Unfortunately CableLabs has driven them to all sorts of completely unnecessary encryption that only hurts legitimate consumers and make torrent a more attractive option for watching shows elsewhere.


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