# Now the ads are p***ing me off



## james.92 (Jul 18, 2006)

Finally got to watch the "Bitter Sweets" episode of Pushing Daisies.

When it ended I was presented with 3 options:

Delete now
Keep this recording
Discover Sony High Definition (clickable link)

This is not cool. All you people who have been saying there is no slippery slope, feel free to reply.

Not a happy camper with the company. I love my TiVo, but if this is the way it is going to be I may as well start looking at a computer solution.

Sorry is this is old news but I saw it for the first time this morning.


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## flatcurve (Sep 27, 2007)

I b'lieve the company just posted a loss a few days ago... it shouldn't surprise anybody that they're whoring themselves for revenue.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

What exactly is the problem?

In what way did the ad affect your ability to watch and then delete the show?


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

SeanC said:


> What exactly is the problem?
> 
> In what way did the ad affect your ability to watch and then delete the show?


Exactly-just don't click it. boom done!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

james.92 said:


> Finally got to watch the "Bitter Sweets" episode of Pushing Daisies.
> 
> When it ended I was presented with 3 options:
> 
> ...


these ads first appeared about 6 months or more ago. they are not new. 
Also as others asked can you please describe exactly what you had to do differently to use your DVR. Exactly how intrusive was this ad?

I find them easy to ignore, myself, since the current crop of ads have no interest for me. If it was for some new Movie I would click through to see the extended trailer :up:


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## brnscofrnld (Mar 30, 2005)

SeanC said:


> What exactly is the problem?
> 
> In what way did the ad affect your ability to watch and then delete the show?


I was wondering the same thing. So they added an extra line on the page when you are asked what you want to do at the end of watching a show, i don't get it.

You don't have to click past the add, or move through an extra step to delete it...

I'll complain about the adds when they force you to watch them before deleting, starting or even during a previously recorded show.


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## TheSlyBear (Dec 26, 2002)

I have a hard time understanding the outrage. It'd be different if you had to watch the ad before using the menu. But putting a link to an ad at the bottom of the menu... meh.


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## mrmike (May 2, 2001)

I reflexively up-select anyway when I'm done with a show, so I don't even parse the ads most of the time. <shrug>


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

brnscofrnld said:


> I'll complain about the adds when they force you to watch them before deleting, starting or even during a previously recorded show.


and you would not be alone if we were forced to deal with clearing the ad in some way. This fact is what defeats the slippery slope argument as it is a cliff for TiVo, no slope about it.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

Well, I for one give a big KUDOS to Tivo for finding a way to promote clickable advertising (which helps them stay in business) and yet not have it be intrusive in any way whatsoever. Its not an ad you have to watch, skip over, or even click past. Its just there if you want to see it.

I can imagine 1000's of more intrusive advertising techniques (that Tivo has even used in the past) and are especially visible on the networks (popups) and all over the internet.


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## james.92 (Jul 18, 2006)

I have ignored previous ads, but this just goes too far, IMO.

What's next, having to watch the ad in order to be able to save the program?


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## TiivoDog (Feb 14, 2007)

Mod - please delete the aforementioned post / We don't need the Network Executives to get their 'brainless storms' on our forum.....


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## james.92 (Jul 18, 2006)

TiivoDog said:


> Mod - please delete the aforementioned post / We don't need the Network Executives to get their 'brainless storms' on our forum.....


Really nice....


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> these ads first appeared about 6 months or more ago. they are not new.
> Also as others asked can you please describe exactly what you had to do differently to use your DVR. Exactly how intrusive was this ad?
> 
> I find them easy to ignore, myself, since the current crop of ads have no interest for me. If it was for some new Movie I would click through to see the extended trailer :up:


Yeah these ads are as unobtrusive as they get - no different action is needed than if they were not there.

And yes, they have been around a while. Actually, for almost exactly a year now - I started this thread last year when I first saw them: Advertisement at end of "Rudolph" - never seen this kind before


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

james.92 said:


> I have ignored previous ads, but this just goes too far, IMO.
> 
> What's next, having to watch the ad in order to be able to save the program?


When that happens, let us know. Until then, do exactly what you've done before, and you won't have to see any ads, OK?


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

james.92 said:


> All you people who have been saying there is no slippery slope, feel free to reply.





> "Slippery slope", more often than not, is a logical fallacy, requiring a great stretch of causation of events that in no way actually cause each other. Using a slippery slope argument is what people turn to when they don't have an actual event to point to thats unacceptable, and instead need to fear monger about what else it could (but probably won't) mean."


 - fredct, 11/22/2007


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

If I promise to click on a few of these links, can they add guide data mapping for clear QAM channels?


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## james.92 (Jul 18, 2006)

MickeS said:


> When that happens, let us know. Until then, do exactly what you've done before, and you won't have to see any ads, OK?


When/if that occurs, you read it here first.

Look, I love my Tivo and have used one since the summer of 2001. I just do not like where this seems to be going.

I hope you guys are right, but I really do not think so. Let's see what it looks like in a year or two.


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## brnscofrnld (Mar 30, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> If I promise to click on a few of these links, can they add guide data mapping for clear QAM channels?


:up:

OoOo.... that would be nice. I'll do the same if they can give us some data on those channels


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## fredct (Nov 15, 2004)

james.92 said:


> I have ignored previous ads, but this just goes too far, IMO?


Why?

These have been around for quite a few months already. It can't have been that bad if it took you months to even notice it was there.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

james.92 said:


> I hope you guys are right, but I really do not think so.


 care to base that on somethjing other than the old slippery slope argument?


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

james.92 said:


> When/if that occurs, you read it here first.


Nope, 'fraid not.

We were first warned about the "slippery slope" ... - http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=195971#post195971


> This seems to be an example of a slippery slope. ....
> The ad seems to be pretty inocuous now but it is conceivable that TiVo could.....


... over six years ago.

Over six years of warnings.

_Six friggin' years._


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jmoak said:


> Over six years of warnings.
> 
> _Six friggin' years._


looks like TiVo soilled some stickum on that slope


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## EVizzle (Feb 13, 2005)

Does Tivo get more revenue if those ads are clicked? If so, I would click to view the ads, if not I will still continue to ignore all ads on my Tivos. I feel like doing my part to keep Tivo alive, as I have seen the other side of DVRs and it is not pretty!


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

fredct said:


> Why?
> 
> These have been around for quite a few months already. It can't have been that bad if it took you months to even notice it was there.


My thoughts exactly. You've seen one ad in a year. They aren't that frequent at all and you don't have to do anything differently to avoid them.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

james.92 said:


> Sorry is this is old news but I saw it for the first time this morning.


As others have stated, this is the part of his post I really like. It *is old news*, yet he just now noticed it. For six months his TiVo has been doing this, but he just now noticed.


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## james.92 (Jul 18, 2006)

astrohip said:


> As others have stated, this is the part of his post I really like. It *is old news*, yet he just now noticed it. For six months his TiVo has been doing this, but he just now noticed.


Now that's funny!


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

These things don't bother me too much (much worse are the networks' ads that cover the program as discussed in another thread today)..

But one relatively minor thing is that these seem to add a minor delay. I *can't* just go left arrow, up arrow, enter quickly like I usually can. I'm not saying it's pausing when the ad is up.. I think it just takes longer to draw the screen so it's losing the remote input or something.


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## Lensman (Dec 22, 2001)

I don't think I've ever seen one of these. They do seem like an extension of the ads that you can access from the home page.

What I'd like to see is directed/related advertising for each show - something like swivel search.

In fact, I could see Tivo really monetizing swivel search in the same way that Google has monetized search with adwords.

I'm not worried about intrusive ads as long as Tivo remains independent and has to fight for their customers with service features and quality.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

brnscofrnld said:


> ... I'll complain about the adds when they force you to watch them before deleting, starting or even during a previously recorded show.


That's the day I will abandon TiVo.


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## Rooster (Oct 21, 2002)

I'll reserve my complaining for when they play a foreign, annoying sound when you fast forward past TiVo's preferred commercials ... oh wait. I got my TiVo to timeshift and to fastforward through unwanted ads. You've got to expect that when you start introducing more ads you're going to rub people the wrong way when one of the bigger benefits of your product is avoiding advertising, especially when people pay a premium monthly subscription for your service.

I didn't buy my TiVo because they found new and innovative ways to advertise to me, so part of me feels like they're changing the deal when they slowly introduce more and more advertising into the system. At the same time, I realize that it's obvious now that the old business model wasn't working so I kind of understand them doing what they need to so they can remain in business. That said, it's hard to argue that more and more advertising creep is going into the system and the line for me is when it becomes intrusive and plays sounds when you try to get through it too quickly.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Rooster said:


> I'll reserve my complaining for when they play a foreign, annoying sound when you fast forward past TiVo's preferred commercials ... oh wait. I got my TiVo to timeshift and to fastforward through unwanted ads. You've got to expect that when you start introducing more ads you're going to rub people the wrong way when one of the bigger benefits of your product is avoiding advertising, especially when people pay a premium monthly subscription for your service.
> 
> I didn't buy my TiVo because they found new and innovative ways to advertise to me, so part of me feels like they're changing the deal when they slowly introduce more and more advertising into the system. At the same time, I realize that it's obvious now that the old business model wasn't working so I kind of understand them doing what they need to so they can remain in business. That said, it's hard to argue that more and more advertising creep is going into the system and the line for me is when it becomes intrusive and plays sounds when you try to get through it too quickly.


I have no arguments with your position; it seems to be quite reasonable. However, I do want to point out that TiVo from day 1 has always said that advertising will be an important part of their revenue stream. What they want to offer is targeted ads - ads that the user is interested in. Eg, pressing a thumbs up during a Ford commercial gets you an extended information dump from Ford. They haven't changed their model at all in that respect. The ads are not going to disappear.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Rooster said:


> the line for me is when it becomes intrusive and plays sounds when you try to get through it too quickly.


so are you the first to actually cancel your TiVo subscriptions/sell them off and inform TiVo you did so because you do not like the advertising.

BTW - advertising was part of TiVo business model since they opened their doors - it is just now getting enough eyeballs to do something with advertising


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## ZildjianKX (Jun 11, 2004)

I don't think the ads are cool. They should have an opt in and have it lower your monthly fees... TiVo is already expensive enough without the ads.


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> so are you the first to actually cancel your TiVo subscriptions/sell them off and inform TiVo you did so because you do not like the advertising.


Every time someone complains about the ads, you use this argument. Every time. We've heard it. It's not as clever as you think it is. Come up with something new, for Pete's sake.

You're argument is this: The ads are fine because nobody hates them enough to cancel. 
Just for fun, let's all look at why it's illogical: 
1. Do you know for a fact that nobody has canceled their Tivo because of the intrusive ads? You can prove this?
2. I have lifetime service on my one Tivo, but I will not buy another Tivo because of the intrusive ads. So, if you're begging someone to point lost sales resulting from the intrusive ads, I can point out at least one.
3. There are other negative responses other than canceling service. Let's name one: telling someone else not to get a Tivo because of the ads (Or people reading on Digg about the intrusive ads). Personally, I have a strong suspicion that any annoying feature will cause the loss of customers.

I'm not arguing that Tivo's revenue will not improve temporarily as a result of these ads - I'm merely pointing out that your argument simply makes no sense and you should stop vomiting it perpetually. 
Now go make me a sandwich.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> these ads first appeared about 6 months or more ago. they are not new.
> Also as others asked can you please describe exactly what you had to do differently to use your DVR. Exactly how intrusive was this ad?
> 
> I find them easy to ignore, myself, since the current crop of ads have no interest for me. If it was for some new Movie I would click through to see the extended trailer :up:


+1 :up:


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## 056557 (Sep 24, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> Well, I for one give a big KUDOS to Tivo for finding a way to promote clickable advertising (which helps them stay in business) and yet not have it be intrusive in any way whatsoever. Its not an ad you have to watch, skip over, or even click past. Its just there if you want to see it.
> 
> I can imagine 1000's of more intrusive advertising techniques (that Tivo has even used in the past) and are especially visible on the networks (popups) and all over the internet.


IMHO, this method of advertising placement is frankly brilliant. I dont know who came up with this placement, but the first time I experienced it I was stunned at how compelling the placement was. Perhaps this is why the person who posted the original message had such a visceral reaction to it. This specific placement is incredibly effective. More so than virtually any other electronic placement I have ever seen. Heres why.

There is something about one's mental state when one has just finished an engaging right-brain task and is ready to start something new. It uniquely opens one up to the power of suggestion. That occurs virtually nowhere else in the Tivo application path. At every other point, I am either starting something (and cant be bothered) , or in the middle of something (and cant be bothered), vs. ending something (and am much more willing to be bothered). In fact, if I just finished a particularly compelling or poignant drama, I may be in a uniquely contemplative state of mind. And Im a prefect target for the right kind of ad.

It's brilliant. The first time I saw it, I was struck with how uniquely effective it will probably be.

I realize that there are many people who disdain advertising as a matter of principle, and may not appreciate my position. For them, advertising will always be an acquired taste at best and evil at worst. However some of us actually find certain types of advertising to be brilliant. And this is one of them.


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## 056557 (Sep 24, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> Well, I for one give a big KUDOS to Tivo for finding a way to promote clickable advertising (which helps them stay in business) and yet not have it be intrusive in any way whatsoever. Its not an ad you have to watch, skip over, or even click past. Its just there if you want to see it.
> 
> I can imagine 1000's of more intrusive advertising techniques (that Tivo has even used in the past) and are especially visible on the networks (popups) and all over the internet.


IMHO, this method of advertising placement is frankly brilliant. I dont know who came up with this placement, but the first time I experienced it I was stunned at how compelling the placement was. Perhaps this is why the person who posted the original message had such a visceral reaction to it. This specific placement is incredibly effective. More so than virtually any other electronic placement I have ever seen. Heres why.

There is something about one's mental state when one has just finished an engaging right-brain task and is ready to start something new. It uniquely opens one up to the power of suggestion. That occurs virtually nowhere else in the Tivo application path. At every other point, I am either starting something (and cant be bothered) , or in the middle of something (and cant be bothered), vs. ending something (and am much more willing to be bothered). In fact, if I just finished a particularly compelling or poignant drama, I may be in a uniquely contemplative state of mind. And Im a prefect target for the right kind of ad.

It's brilliant. The first time I saw it, I was struck with how uniquely effective it will probably be.

I realize that there are many people who disdain advertising as a matter of principle, and may not appreciate my position. For them, advertising will always be an acquired taste at best and evil at worst. However some of us actually find certain types of advertising to be brilliant. And this is one of them.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Atomike said:


> Every time someone complains about the ads, you use this argument. Every time. We've heard it. It's not as clever as you think it is. Come up with something new, for Pete's sake.


this poster specifically said he had reached his line due to the sound. I was wondering if that was true or he was just complaining.

Have you told TiVo the reason you are not getting any more TiVo DVRs?
At what p[oint would you stop just posting, actually sell the lifetime TiVo and use something else?

also please point to where I told anyone they can not complain or they are not allowed to dislike any ads. On the other hand you seem to feel compelled to try and squelch my opinion and points. Not the sign of a strong base to argue from on your side.

So, I simply add my standing counter claim that most people TRULY do not find it all that bad or else they would cancel the service and post about it here to make sure the reason is known.


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> On the other hand you seem to feel compelled to try and squelch my opinion and points.


Yes, I countered your points using logical arguments. To which, I notice is no real response. I don't think it's a bad thing to point out why someone is wrong.



> So, I simply add my standing counter claim that most people TRULY do not find it all that bad or else they would cancel the service and post about it here to make sure the reason is known.


This is still a jump in logic - you take an inaction as proof of a definitive opinion. Nice try, but not valid at all.
But, I am happy that you've changed your opinion slightly and softened your view. Perhaps at least now you will not demand someone give you a name of a person who's canceled due to the ads. That's all I'm asking, and I think that now that we've examined the logic, that will not happen again.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

TiVo has to make money somehow. And since whether or not to watch the ad is a choice, it doesn't bother me in the least. As someone said, TiVo is already expensive enough (if you don't have lifetime). Given a choice between raising their fees even higher, and targeted ads, I vote for targeted ads.

There is a limit to how much TiVo can charge for their service. People are already complaining that it's too expensive. TiVo needs to bring in enough revenue to stay afloat or we'll all be stuck with the crummy dvrs from the cable and satellite companies.

Those of you who are highly offended by the ads - can you think of an alternative to help TiVo stay afloat without raising their prices again? My guess is that if you can, the powers that be at TiVo would love to hear it. They only stay in business if they make people happy, and they're already having enough trouble doing that, as is evidenced by all the customer service and pricing complaints.

Advertising is what supports almost all entertainment. At some point, we have to deal with it on some level. What TiVo is doing is the least annoying and least obtrusive I've seen yet. If there are any better ideas out there, let's hear them.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Atomike said:


> 1. Do you know for a fact that nobody has canceled their Tivo because of the intrusive ads? You can prove this?


Nope. But I can say I have yet to see the first post in all these many threads on someone telling me they cancelled. What proof do you have that anyone has cancelled over the ads? TiVo inc. seems to continuously point happily to *increased revenue* from ads, so they must not be feeling any perceptible loss of subs over ads


> 2. I have lifetime service on my one Tivo, but I will not buy another Tivo because of the intrusive ads. So, if you're begging someone to point lost sales resulting from the intrusive ads, I can point out at least one.


yes, but that is an easy inaction on your part. Sure it would hurt Tivo if you actually would have bought another TiVo otherwise, but the inaction is easy. My point is that no one TRULY dislikes the ads as much as you all claim as actions speak louder than posts, sell the lifetimed unit and use a different DVR then I, and more importantly TiVo inc., will take you or anyone else seriously


> 3. There are other negative responses other than canceling service. Let's name one: telling someone else not to get a Tivo because of the ads (Or people reading on Digg about the intrusive ads). Personally, I have a strong suspicion that any annoying feature will cause the loss of customers.


See reply to number 1.Sure any annoying thing can casue loss of users. heck these stupid ad rant threads have probably lost readers of the forum  I am sure it is monthly price at the root of resistence to TiVo with ads being lumped in with other stuff in the Pie chart slice marked "other". Feel free to show me the opposite is true.


> I'm not arguing that Tivo's revenue will not improve temporarily as a result of these ads - I'm merely pointing out that your argument simply makes no sense and you should stop vomiting it perpetually.
> Now go make me a sandwich.


umm, so your argument is that yes, TiVo is making increased revenue off the ads and those revenues are increasing quarter over quarter but TiVo had better stop since you perceive a significant number of lost subscriptions even though few(mainly you) have said they are not getting any more TivO subs and no one has posted as to actually cancelling/selling due to ads.

Somehow though it is my argument that does not make sense 

also your insulting ending just discredits you further.

So if people keep wanting to spew out ad rants, I will keep pointing out that posting a rant in an online forum will do little to stop the ads.


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## minckster (Aug 31, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So, I simply add my standing counter claim that most people TRULY do not find it all that bad or else they would cancel the service and post about it here to make sure the reason is known.


 Wouldn't your counter claim still be true even TiVo lost 49% of its customers because of the ads? That's a thin reed on which to hang your hat. [Edit to add: Just a bit of teasing. I'm not interested in joining yours and Mike's match. I'll just watch. The popcorn's in the mic now.]

It's probably not too controversial to say that the advertising has led to negligible cancellations. (Zero, if _I_ _had_ to place a bet.) The more interesting argument is whether the advertising reduces TiVo's sales - particularly to the extent that it overwhelms the advertising revenue. I don't know and am interested to see if people can convince me one way or the other.

I'll add one data-point to the anti-advertising crowd. It's doesn't take too much reputation effect to lose a sale. I stayed away from TiVo for years, based solely on fears that TiVo tracks its subscribers' viewing habits. I could imagine that there are people who see a little blurb on engadget about advertsing on TiVo and forego any consideration of buying a TiVo. I just don't have a feel as to whether there are many of those people.


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## Rooster (Oct 21, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so are you the first to actually cancel your TiVo subscriptions/sell them off and inform TiVo you did so because you do not like the advertising.
> 
> BTW - advertising was part of TiVo business model since they opened their doors - it is just now getting enough eyeballs to do something with advertising


No, I haven't sold anything. I've got 1 lifetime and 1 MSD machine. I made the decision that these were probably my last TiVos when they came out with the new and "improved" pricing scheme that struck me as both expensive and confusing. I wasn't exceptionally sure about that and really pretty down because I really like my TiVo, just made a mental note that new TiVo's probably weren't in my future.

Recently with the lifetime offers I started researching a TiVo HD and/or Series 3. It was on my Christmas list, but I've made it quite clear to my wife that I'm not interested any longer because I'm that offended by the beep. The audio beep has solidified my view that when my MSD TiVo dies (or I no longer qualify because the lifetime dies and can't be repaired) then TiVo will have seen their last dollar of mine unless their stance on this ridiculous audio beep and their pricing structure changes. As you can tell in my post, I'm not a fan of the other ads but I'm generally ok with them because I don't find them intrusive.

The audio stuff crossed the line where they're making experience decisions based on effective advertising rather than doing their best to make my experience with their product great, it represents to me a fundamental shift in the company's focus. Apparently I, as a consumer, can't support their business model and that's fine, but I'm not going to pay a premium for their product anymore.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

Rooster said:


> ...Recently with the lifetime offers I started researching a TiVo HD and/or Series 3. It was on my Christmas list, but I've made it quite clear to my wife that I'm not interested any longer because *I'm that offended by the beep*. The audio beep has solidified my view that when my MSD TiVo dies (or I no longer qualify because the lifetime dies and can't be repaired) then TiVo will have seen their last dollar of mine unless their stance on this ridiculous audio beep and their pricing structure changes....


What beep? Mine doesn't beep when an ad link comes up. Then again, I have all sound effects turned off because I don't like any sound effects at all from my machines. Same for my computer - I keep it muted unless I'm watching something for which I want the sound.

Maybe the solution is as simple as turning off the TiVo's sound effects.


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## Rooster (Oct 21, 2002)

nirisahn said:


> What beep? Mine doesn't beep when an ad link comes up. Then again, I have all sound effects turned off because I don't like any sound effects at all from my machines. Same for my computer - I keep it muted unless I'm watching something for which I want the sound.
> 
> Maybe the solution is as simple as turning off the TiVo's sound effects.


My issue is with a different advertising than the OP's issue. I'm not 100% clear on the specifics, but if you fast forward past a commercial that normally has one of those TiVo pop ups you get an annoying beep. It may not be on all those TiVo pop ups, but it happens when you're fast forwarding through commercials.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

Rooster said:


> My issue is with a different advertising than the OP's issue. I'm not 100% clear on the specifics, but if you fast forward past a commercial that normally has one of those TiVo pop ups you get an annoying beep. It may not be on all those TiVo pop ups, but it happens when you're fast forwarding through commercials.


I don't hear those, either. I wonder if it's because I have sound effects turned off. I never hear any kind of beeping when I'm fast forwarding or when the pop-ups come up at the end of a recording along with the option to keep or delete.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ... BTW - advertising was part of TiVo business model since they opened their doors - it is just now getting enough eyeballs to do something with advertising


What???? Are you making an educated guess, or do you any facts that point to this?


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## Fraser+Dief (Nov 18, 2005)

People need to learn what slippery slope is. It's when you lead to *unrelated* and incredulous claims, IE starting with tivo ads and ending up with the fall of civilisation.

It is not a slippery slope to complain about ads starting to appear in one place, and then appearing in another, and another, and another.

Because *that's exactly what happened.* In less that a year, I've gone from no ads, to ads on my main menu, ads in my features, ads in my commercials, ads in my pop up choices.

Damn right it pisses us off. Can't even get the freakin' guide data right for two+ months or bugs fixed in the software for over a year, but hey, we don't have time to deal with trivial items like that, we've got our entire staff working on ad delivery.


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## mrmike (May 2, 2001)

Fraser+Dief said:


> Because *that's exactly what happened.* In less that a year, I've gone from no ads, to ads on my main menu, ads in my features, ads in my commercials, ads in my pop up choices.


All of these except the delete ones have been on my boxes longer than a year. What hardware do you have?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Fraser+Dief said:


> Can't even get the freakin' guide data right for two+ months or bugs fixed in the software for over a year, but hey, we don't have time to deal with trivial items like that, we've got our entire staff working on ad delivery.


With comments like this you've lost all credibility. Nonsensical exaggeration (or untruths) doesn't build up your point.


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## fredct (Nov 15, 2004)

Fraser+Dief said:


> People need to learn what slippery slope is. It's when you lead to *unrelated* and incredulous claims, IE starting with tivo ads and ending up with the fall of civilization.


No, its not:
_In debate or rhetoric, the slippery slope is an argument for the likelihood of one event or trend given another. It suggests that an action will initiate a chain of events culminating in an undesirable event later. The argument is sometimes referred to as the thin end of the wedge or the camel's nose._
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

A slippery slope argument is any connection of events. I'm not saying a slippery slope can never happen or come true. It can. But its also a logical fallacy to assume that just become one thing has, another will.

You're entitled to your own opinions and preferences, and your own purchasing decisions. But for many of us, the line TiVo can't cross is to effect the usage by causing extra button pushes or dismissal of an ad before you can complete normal acts. That's a pretty bright line, and I think TiVo is well aware of that barrier, because they are so focused on user interface. If they push past it, they'll be reminded the hard way.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Rooster said:


> My issue is with a different advertising than the OP's issue. I'm not 100% clear on the specifics, but if you fast forward past a commercial that normally has one of those TiVo pop ups you get an annoying beep. It may not be on all those TiVo pop ups, but it happens when you're fast forwarding through commercials.


yes that is how it works. If you are FFing a commercial and the commercial has a billboard ad on it and your TiVo sounds are on then it will make a chime sound (not a beep, though annoying is in the ear of the beholder).

I purposefully said nothing about the chime to see what my family would say and once they have said nothing at all though we have heard it maybe 4 times now.

it does still seem like pricing is more of a concern for you than the ads. The sound was the last straw veruss the real reason from how I read your post.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

minckster said:


> Wouldn't your counter claim still be true even TiVo lost 49% of its customers because of the ads? That's a thin reed on which to hang your hat. [Edit to add: Just a bit of teasing. I'm not interested in joining yours and Mike's match. I'll just watch. The popcorn's in the mic now.].


 no, if TiVo was loosing 2% of its customers due to ads then it would be a very bad business decision for them to continue ads. (rough guess as I did not crunch any numbers for this)

at 49% I would not be posting here as Tivo obviously crossed the clear bright line adn jumped off the ad cliff. I would most likely have found some other DVR method as TiVo would be truly dead at that point and thus no longer hang out in this forum as it would most likely be a HTPC capable of cable cards and I would need to be in 3 other forums to get it all working correctly


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## Rooster (Oct 21, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes that is how it works. If you are FFing a commercial and the commercial has a billboard ad on it and your TiVo sounds are on then it will make a chime sound (not a beep, though annoying is in the ear of the beholder).
> 
> I purposefully said nothing about the chime to see what my family would say and once they have said nothing at all though we have heard it maybe 4 times now.
> 
> it does still seem like pricing is more of a concern for you than the ads. The sound was the last straw veruss the real reason from how I read your post.


I think it's quite the opposite. The pricing really had me saying, "TiVo is a great product, but too pricey for me now." I'd say the same thing about a Corvette even though I'd love to own one. The recent lifetime promotion was enough to overcome that "too pricey" part and seriously consider a purchase. The chime (I like that term better, thanks) to me now says "TiVo isn't about satisfying me anymore, they're catering to the advertisers now." The chime isn't a feature for the users, I can't imagine anyone saying, "Wow, I don't know how I lived without the chime when I'm fast forwarding commercials."

When I first heard it, I didn't know it was the TiVo even though I'd read something about it earlier. I immediately thought some other electronic device was trying to alert me to some problem or something. My wife, having no idea asked me "What was that?" It wasn't until the 2nd time I heard it that I made the connection and only because I remembered reading something about it (my wife said, "There it is again"). It's not intuitive to the user what the purpose of the chime is, it's not something I find valuable, and I find it intrusive to the point of being offensive. It's only reason to exist is to benefit advertisers (and thereby TiVo indirectly). I don't like paying a premium for a product or service to cater to someone else's wants.

The pricing changed the value proposition for owning a TiVo for me and it was largely overcome by a special offer, the chime changed my opinion of the company and it's product and it can really only be overcome by a reversal on the part of TiVo and even then I'll have some lingering doubts about where TiVo's priorities are. For TiVo, I think the latter is far more damaging, but I'm just one consumer.

Your post has provoked some thought, though. I'm going to give serious consideration this weekend to canceling the MSD machine and letting the TiVo CSR know exactly why they're not getting my money anymore. It's more likely I'll stick with my original plan, but the idea will receive serious consideration.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Rooster said:


> Your post has provoked some thought, though. I'm going to give serious consideration this weekend to canceling the MSD machine and letting the TiVo CSR know exactly why they're not getting my money anymore. It's more likely I'll stick with my original plan, but the idea will receive serious consideration.


fair enough. the chime does indeed serve solely to alert the viewer to a thumbs up ad. It fits my own litmus test of not having to do anything differently to operate my TiVo and being able to ignore any ad or use it as my sole discretion. Your threshold is obviously lower in that the noise is the line. Did you see the comments on turning off sounds? of course that may not work for you as I can see wanting the other sounds for feedback on remote presses.

So let us know how your decision goes, in all my posts someone might think I am a defender of the ads but I am not really, all the ads could go tomorrow and I would only miss movie trailers somewhat and can get them in various TiVocasts anyway. I just wanted the threads to turn to discussions that would get TiVo inc.'s attention versus just the obvious "Do not like ads".


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## Rooster (Oct 21, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> fair enough. the chime does indeed serve solely to alert the viewer to a thumbs up ad. It fits my own litmus test of not having to do anything differently to operate my TiVo and being able to ignore any ad or use it as my sole discretion. Your threshold is obviously lower in that the noise is the line. Did you see the comments on turning off sounds? of course that may not work for you as I can see wanting the other sounds for feedback on remote presses.
> 
> So let us know how your decision goes, in all my posts someone might think I am a defender of the ads but I am not really, all the ads could go tomorrow and I would only miss movie trailers somewhat and can get them in various TiVocasts anyway. I just wanted the threads to turn to discussions that would get TiVo inc.'s attention versus just the obvious "Do not like ads".


You bring up an interesting point. I'm ok with ignoring the delete ads, but this chime seriously bothers me. My line is how intrusive they are. I feel the audio makes me take notice of something because it's out of the ordinary and it's not too uncommon for devices to beep at you to alert you of a problem. The first place I checked on the initial beep was my cell phone, it was new and I wasn't used to all the sounds so I wondered if it had a low battery or a text message came. For me, it's difficult to ignore the chime and, truth be known, I kind of felt like I was sent on a wild goose chase to find out what it was. Had I not read something prior, it probably would've taken a few more times to figure out what was going on.

Out of curiosity, would you be ok if audio stared playing while you were fast forwarding all the time? Maybe it would say, "Pepto Bismol - it's the only one that coats. Buy it at your local Wallgreens." and change it up every time. What if they used every time when there's no sound to randomly play some sort of radio-type ad. The now playing screen, all the menus, the delete screen, etc. could all have audio thrown in now and then since there's otherwise mostly silence. That would be clearly over my line, but it wouldn't require anything different to operate your TiVo.

For further anecdotal and largely unrelated thought. I also was fairly offended last year at a local radio station that used a sound that was identical to the ones in your car that would alert you to the door being open, a check engine light, low fuel, etc and they'd play that a second or so before their station identification. I was monumentally bothered because I was fooled for an instant into thinking something was wrong with my car several times only to realize it was a marketing gimmick. In that case, my biggest frustration was that they were desensitizing me to an otherwise important sound, so it's a bit different than in this case. I've largely stopped listening to that station, but I wonder if you would've reacted the same way.

I did see that post about turning off sound effects, but I do think they're a rather important part of the whole experience. I like the audio feedback for pressing remote buttons. Maybe I'll try it and see if I can live without the audio, but I hate that I have to modify how I use the TiVo to get around a feature that was added for the benefit of someone else.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Rooster said:


> Out of curiosity, would you be ok if audio stared playing while you were fast forwarding all the time? Maybe it would say, "Pepto Bismol - it's the only one that coats. Buy it at your local Wallgreens." and change it up every time. What if they used every time when there's no sound to randomly play some sort of radio-type ad. The now playing screen, all the menus, the delete screen, etc. could all have audio thrown in now and then since there's otherwise mostly silence. That would be clearly over my line, but it wouldn't require anything different to operate your TiVo.


I have had a fairly high tolerance to sounds my whole life so I do tend to tune them out easier then most. I was surprised my wife, who hates unneeded noises, did not get annoyed by the chime but she has not remarked on it yet at all.

now the sound angle does have the same kind of point of no return for TiVo as ads in the wrong place do. The chime is a pleasant enough sound and only lasts a second so I guess that is mainly why the chime is no big deal to me and probably wont generate a lot of issues for TiVo. 
Spoken words are much, much harder to ignore and of course would last much longer. I suspect that is a line that TiVo would be best to not cross at the risk of loosing significant subs.

In a way this is like a corollary to my litmus test in that chimes I can ignore and they do not change how I interact with the TiVo but spoken words or other longer lasting sounds would be hard to ignore and would indeed change the way I interact with the DVR.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Nope. But I can say I have yet to see the first post in all these many threads on someone telling me they cancelled. What proof do you have that anyone has cancelled over the ads? TiVo inc. seems to continuously point happily to *increased revenue* from ads, so they must not be feeling any perceptible loss of subs over ads


Wait, let me get this right. You are using as your lead argument Tivo's corporate decision making? This is a technology company that posted a loss of customers in the most recent quarterly reports? Who says their marketing expertise and business sense is good? In fact, I think Tivo's marketing and business strategy stinks and it always has. That is why they are not king of the mountain today. Little foresight. Bad advertising. A business model that ties themselves to hardware when their main competence is software.


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

I don't like ads on the Tivo either, but Tivo did it elegantly.

Press thumbs up to record or for more info on commercials is cool by me. I'm not a huge fan of the showcase or star ads on the main menu, but at least they are on the bottom. I have to go out of my way to click one.

Same goes for the end of recording ads. If it really bugs you, left arrow out before the very end of the recording and you'll never see it. Again, if this ad is there it is at the very end of the list and you have to really go out of your way to select it.

I'm not saying 'bring on the ads', I'm just saying Tivo does it well. The cable STBs are a LOT less subtle with their interactive ads.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> A business model that ties themselves to hardware when their main competence is software.


yes, and the monthly sub price is not a big help either, but we are talking ads specifically at the moment...

So are you saying that if TiVo dropped the ads we would see a significant rise in the number of subscriptions?


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## MannyE (Dec 7, 2001)

MickeS said:


> When that happens, let us know. Until then, do exactly what you've done before, and you won't have to see any ads, OK?


Oh my god! If Tivo is going to survive, it's going to be the research (Neilsen is calm ...for now even though they started rolling out "people meters" shortly after the advent of Tivo) and the alternative advertising models that are being created because of the widespread use of... what? (all together now) D V R ssss!

I look forward to the day when we either have totally free entertainment or that it can get sponsored and paid for by unobtrusive "stealth advertising"


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## SeattleBrad (Jul 19, 2002)

It does seem strange that you are seeing ads even though you are paying for the service. However, newspapers and magazines also get money both from subscribers and advertisers. It looks like it's the only way to be profitable and stay in business.


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

Obviously, out of principle, you'll have to cancel your subscription. 

Go ahead and do it. I dare you.


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## Lensman (Dec 22, 2001)

What do people think about *more* options at the end of shows? I find myself slightly annoyed that if I'm watching a show for the first time - say as a Suggestion, I can't both delete it and go to get a season pass or swivel search or something from the end. This would be solved by having those options from the "delete at end" menu.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Lensman said:


> What do people think about *more* options at the end of shows? I find myself slightly annoyed that if I'm watching a show for the first time - say as a Suggestion, I can't both delete it and go to get a season pass or swivel search or something from the end. This would be solved by having those options from the "delete at end" menu.


uummm - at the end of the show hit left arrow, select more options, do your thing - left arrow out of where ever you went and then delete the show. 
Already there and easy to use.


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## Lensman (Dec 22, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> uummm - at the end of the show hit left arrow, select more options, do your thing - left arrow out of where ever you went and then delete the show.
> Already there and easy to use.


This is what I do now, I think we just disagree about whether it's easy to use.

For swivel search, the sequence is:
left arrow to navigate back
down arrow four times to get to more options
right arrow to select more options
up arrow three times to get to swivel search
right arrow to select swivel search
<do my swivel search thing>
left arrow to navigate back to more options
left arrow to navigate back to the show
up arrow twice to get to delete
select to delete

But my main problem is that in I actually want to delete the show, I just want to do some things first before I delete it. I think it creates some kind of task tension that if I want to add a season pass before I delete a show that I've just watched, I have to say: "no, i don't want to delete the show", do my thing, and then later say "delete this show". I understand that some may consider this "nit-picking", but I consider it user-centered design. Now I may be the only one who would consider this somehow desirable, and if so then they shouldn't do this.

I agree with the poster earlier in the thread who said that the screen for delete/keep the show is a unique point in the tv watching user experience. I could even see additional options here if/when Tivo ever adds support for two people watching the a show and marking it for deletion. That would elevate Tivo to the level of Lexus with their adjustment of mirrors and seat based on which remote was used to unlock the car.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Lensman said:


> I think it creates some kind of task tension that if I want to add a season pass before I delete a show that I've just watched, I have to say: "no, i don't want to delete the show", do my thing, and then later say "delete this show". I understand that some may consider this "nit-picking", but I consider it user-centered design. Now I may be the only one who would consider this somehow desirable, and if so then they shouldn't do this.


 having an option that does two things - delete this show AND bring up more options for this show - while a remote button timesaver - does not fit the simplistic menu design of TiVo. You, and I, could make good use of the option but it is just easier to follow to keep the show and do the more options, then delete it. There are many places I would love to tech/geek up the TiVo menus and have even talked about an advanced user option under setup to turn on these more advanced menus to get to the LEXUS level. So I am with you in principle but the simple interface approach really calls for a simple Keep or Delete at the end of the show


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## MaryT (Dec 3, 2001)

What ads? I'm not forced to watch any ad at any time.

I've had a Tivo since 2000 and there were always some sort of line items on the main screens.

I even actively play the ads so Tivo gets revenue.

In the end, how many people would prefer not to have Tivo at all? I can't even remember TV without it.

I really don't get what all the huffing & puffing about this line items is about.


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> What ads? I'm not forced to watch any ad at any time.


You're confusing the terms "Television Ads" with "Ads". You are not forced to watch any video 30-frames-per-second ads - that's true. But there are text ads for cars and such. Look at the text next to the star on your Tivo. If a billboard had the same message about Lexus, etc. would you not call that an ad?

The only real difference is that people don't pay a monthly fee to the billboard company.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

SeattleBrad said:


> It does seem strange that you are seeing ads even though you are paying for the service. However, newspapers and magazines also get money both from subscribers and advertisers. It looks like it's the only way to be profitable and stay in business.


This is not specifically in response to SeattleBrad, but building on what he said.

You pay for cable TV channels, too and they have just as many ads as OTA stations. The question is, how much do you want to pay (directly) for what you view and what services you use. Would you rather pay more directly to the service provider for the convenience of not having ads, or pay less directly to the service provider and pay the rest in the cost of the items you buy (as advertising costs make up a part of product cost)? You pay either way. And where you may not buy the items specifically being advertised, everybody buys stuff, and almost everything we buy is advertised somehow, somewhere, so it all evens out in the wash.

It's no different than most ISP's. You pay a fortune for service from an ISP, and their home page is riddled with advertising that's way more obtrusive than the ads TiVo carries. Those ads flash and move constantly. I don't know if they make noise because I generally have the sound muted on my computer, but if they do, that's even worse. I'd rather have TiVo the way it is now than have to pay even more for it because they're not bringing in advertising revenue.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Atomike said:


> You're confusing the terms "Television Ads" with "Ads".


No she was not. She said she was not forced to click on the Star line items and be forced to actually watch the ad and this is the lijne for many - some text on A menu and maybe a picture with the text is just not that big a deal to most people.

She did however choose to watch the ads to help TiVo genertae some ad revenue. TiVo staying in business and indeed perhaps even getting profitable so they have more resources to offer better products and better deals is a big deal to most people.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

I saw a line item for 1968 on History International and watched the promo for it, and subsequently watched the show. I wouldn't have known it was airing w/o the 'ad'.

I pick which ones I click on, they don't bug me at all.


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

Oh brother.


> A menu and maybe a picture with the text is just not that big a deal to most people.


Maybe so, maybe not. That has little relevance to whether or not it's an ad. Anything designed to get you to do something is an ad. A billboard with "Coke" is an ad. So is a billboard with "www.coke.com". The second is a better example because that's an ad for an ad. Regardless, they're both ads, just like the text on my Tivo menu - it's designed to get me to do something.

Man, with you it's like watching a bird flying into a glass window - over, and over and over. A little humorous, but mostly sad.


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

MaryT said:


> What ads? I'm not forced to watch any ad at any time.
> 
> I've had a Tivo since 2000 and there were always some sort of line items on the main screens.
> 
> ...


Well, I think maybe you do.

You see that it's much ado about nothing.

See, that's what it's about: NOTHING. And complaining about nothing. Which might be called complaining for complaining's sake.

ANd is entirely useless.

Though for sure, if it upsets you that much STOP POSTING here and CALL TIVO AND CANCEL.


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## Lensman (Dec 22, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> having an option that does two things - delete this show AND bring up more options for this show - while a remote button timesaver - does not fit the simplistic menu design of TiVo. You, and I, could make good use of the option but it is just easier to follow to keep the show and do the more options, then delete it.


Actually, all I want is for that end-of-show menu to have either three or four things on it:
1. delete
2. keep
3. more options

OR

1. delete
2. keep
3. (i liked this show) get season pass (if this show is a series and if I don't have a season pass for this show)
4. (i liked this show and want to find more like it) swivel search (probably only if I don't have a season pass as well, and maybe only if this *isn't* a series)
5. (i liked this show, show me what other people who liked this show recommend)
6. (I liked this show, show me what other shows advertisers are willing to pay money to have me consider at this time)

Again, though, I see this as possibly just being something that may only make sense to me and not to how other people's brains are wired.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Atomike said:


> Oh brother.
> Maybe so, maybe not. That has little relevance to whether or not it's an ad. Anything designed to get you to do something is an ad. A billboard with "Coke" is an ad. So is a billboard with "www.coke.com". The second is a better example because that's an ad for an ad. Regardless, they're both ads, just like the text on my Tivo menu - it's designed to get me to do something.
> 
> Man, with you it's like watching a bird flying into a glass window - over, and over and over. A little humorous, but mostly sad.


When you signed up for the service, what specifically did you read that made you think you wouldn't see ads like this?

-smak-


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Atomike said:


> Oh brother.
> Maybe so, maybe not. That has little relevance to whether or not it's an ad.
> 
> Man, with you it's like watching a bird flying into a glass window - over, and over and over. A little humorous, but mostly sad.


actually I am just the guy cleaning the glass so things can be seen clearly and you are the guy that keeps smudging it up with things like somehow arguing they are called ads when no said they are not called ads


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

I would prefer it if the ads weren't there. TiVo's promise was "no ads", and now they've got you where they want you, and advertise to you, anyway. I'm rather frustrated that our subscription fees are not enough to keep this business afloat. Where else are you concerned not only about the goods and services you are getting from a company, but rather that their business is successful? If it were a Charity, maybe, but a for profitable business, this just seems odd. I feel like I'm doing someone else's job, whereas I thought I was just paying to sit back and enjoy a service.

I do use the left arrow after a show now so I do not see the third ad option. I also use the TiVo button a whole lot less. I hate the way it starts out with four lines and then the three extra lines show up, including the ad. At first, I thought if I clicked it, it would go away, but new ones just kept coming up. Ugh.

Will I cancel my service? No. Do I feel like I'm getting less value than before these started showing up for the same cost? Absolutely.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

JaneiR36 said:


> TiVo's promise was "no ads"


When?


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

nirisahn said:


> You pay for cable TV channels, too and they have just as many ads as OTA stations.


I'm old enough to remember that the reason you PAID for cable was that you got all these 'commercial free' channels. (Much like satellite radio claims now). Those were the good old days...

My neighbors thought I was CRAZY to pay for television. "Why pay for TV when you get it free from an antenna?" they would say. "Cause I get all this specialized programming and no commercials!" I would joyfully explain. They didn't get it....and of course now there are only a handful of basic cable channels that don't have commercials.

But all my neighbors now have cable!


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

TiVo's promise was never "no ads". Stressing commercial skip helped kill Replay. TiVo has always played nice with the studios and they're better off for it.

Their promise was TV your way. You choose to be pissed off by the ads you don't even click on to watch. That's "TV your way", apparently. Hope you're enjoying it.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

That's so lame. When you call to sign up, the reps state over and over again how quickly you can skip over those nasty commercials, and it's not supposed to be a slap in the face when the same are featured right on the TiVo home site?! ...not to mention by the company that was supposed to protect you from seeing them? I guess it's just reality. Apparently, everyone eventually has to whore themselves out to make more money! Even XM radio that started out with commercial-free radio now advertises as the "Most commercial-free channels." Apparently, that's acceptable, too!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JaneiR36 said:


> That's so lame.


you can dislike it all you want but to try and make it like the ads on the TiVo interface are a surprise just makes you look silly. The star ads have been there for at least 4 years - the ads on the delete screen have been there for about a year now.

Plus the ads on TiVo do not change the way you interact with the DVR nor do they require one second of extra time. In fact you devoted 1000% more time in writing the few posts in this thread then you will spend actually dealing with the ads on the TiVo for the whole lifetime of the DVR


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

TiVo frequently does software / service updates, do they not? I have not seen this for a full year. I have not even been a customer for a full year. Around early Nov, I paid for the three-year plan, and have only seen the extra ads for about three weeks now. So yes, I feel like I have paid $400 only to see more ads.

WTH does it matter how much time I'm tinkling away stating my distaste for what I perceive to be a modified product, after I purchased it (curiously enough, shortly after my 30 day trial period ended...hmmm)? Since getting the TiVo I'm watching waaaaaaaay more TV as I can now watch entire seasons of my favorite shows, and many more I haven't watched before. I have joined a site to *post about watching TV*. Now what part of that sounds like I haven't got a few minutes to ***** and moan about the ads?  Sorry but I'm totally missing your point!!


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## minckster (Aug 31, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Plus the ads on TiVo do not change the way you interact with the DVR ...


 Actually, that's not true. I used to use TiVo > Page Down > Select to get to Settings. Now TiVo > Page Down > Select _usually_ serves an unwanted ad. The star ads change the way I interact with the TiVo.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

minckster said:


> Actually, that's not true. I used to use TiVo > Page Down > Select to get to Settings. Now TiVo > Page Down > Select _usually_ serves an unwanted ad. The star ads change the way I interact with the TiVo.


Pretty lame complaint. How many times a day do you go to the settings page?


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## minckster (Aug 31, 2006)

ah30k said:


> Pretty lame complaint. How many times a day do you go to the settings page?


  I was pointing out that the statement, "Plus the ads on TiVo do not change the way you interact with the DVR ..." is false. It is false. Is it not?

No where did I make a complaint. Your insult is unwarranted.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

JaneiR36 said:


> I would prefer it if the ads weren't there.


So, would I, but considering the alternatives (higher prices or no Tivo), I am willing to accept a minimal amount of advertising, especially ones that I can EASILY ignore if I want (or watch if I am interested.)



> TiVo's promise was "no ads", and now they've got you where they want you, and advertise to you, anyway.


 Please show where Tivo promises no ads. As others have stated, Tivo does NOT advertise no Ads, they advertise "TV, your way".



> Just I'm rather frustrated that our subscription fees are not enough to keep this business afloat.


 And I wish the our lovely government doesn't continue to find new taxes to take my money, but prices and cost rise year after year. A company has three choices: raise prices, eliminate services, or go out of business. 


> Where else are you concerned not only about the goods and services you are getting from a company, but rather that their business is successful?


 Any company that I maintain an ongoing service relationship with. If Sony goes out of business tomorrow, my TV will still work, but if Tivo goes out of business, well I can always use it as a doorstop.



> If it were a Charity, maybe, but a for profitable business, this just seems odd. I feel like I'm doing someone else's job, whereas I thought I was just paying to sit back and enjoy a service.


 You should be able just sit back and enjoy your Tivo, I still do. Personally i don't find the ads intrusive and can easily ignore them. I would rather have optional advertisements on a Tivo versus the outrageous "pop-up" ads that networks are now overlaying their programming!



> I do use the left arrow after a show now so I do not see the third ad option. I also use the TiVo button a whole lot less. I hate the way it starts out with four lines and then the three extra lines show up, including the ad. At first, I thought if I clicked it, it would go away, but new ones just kept coming up. Ugh.
> 
> Will I cancel my service? No. Do I feel like I'm getting less value than before these started showing up for the same cost? Absolutely.


Tivo still does everything it did when I bought it and I am still paying the same price per month. In fact, since I bought the Tivo, many new features (MRV, TTG, Music & Pictures, etc.) have been added WITHOUT a hike in my service fees! I feel I am getting even more value from my Tivo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

minckster said:


> Actually, that's not true. I used to use TiVo > Page Down > Select to get to Settings. Now TiVo > Page Down > Select _usually_ serves an unwanted ad. The star ads change the way I interact with the TiVo.


I think since 9.1 I have been using the "slow" button right below the pause button on peanut to go to settings.

You are correct that page down does highlight the ad at the bottom


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JaneiR36 said:


> TiVo frequently does software / service updates, do they not? I have not seen this for a full year. I have not even been a customer for a full year. Around early Nov, I paid for the three-year plan, and have only seen the extra ads for about three weeks now. So yes, I feel like I have paid $400 only to see more ads.


so you are a brand new customer. The fact is ads on the TiVo have been around for quite longer than that  Now I do note that you do not see a TiVo central screen on the TiVo website so you do not see that yellow star ad and I doubt the CSRs are coached to make sure you understand there are ads on two screens out of the many menu screens so if ads are that big an issue to you then I guess the work falls to you to research the product before you buy. Sorry but buyer beware is the watchword in our capitalistic society.

My comment on the time posting was simply noting the irony of how little the ads truly affect your use of the TiVo DVR versus the time required to complain about them.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

ah30k said:


> Pretty lame complaint. How many times a day do you go to the settings page?





minckster said:


> I was pointing out that the statement, "Plus the ads on TiVo do not change the way you interact with the DVR ..." is false. It is false. Is it not?
> 
> No where did I make a complaint. Your insult is unwarranted.


And I say that your example of 'changing the way you interact' is bogus because it happens so infrequently. If you want to cling to your argument then go ahead.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

RBlount said:


> Any company that I maintain an ongoing service relationship with. If Sony goes out of business tomorrow, my TV will still work, but if Tivo goes out of business, well I can always use it as a doorstop.


I was actually looking forward to this part of your post! So you can't come up with any other company you'd so willingly support in this same manner, almost as if it were a charity? Personally, I think if TiVo went out of business, a more successful business model would take their place, so that's no excuse for paying customers to suddenly become a free target advertising audience when we paid for no commercials.

PS: I haven't mentioned it, but I feel the ads are the biggest items on each of their respective screens. It's just a little annoying to see.



> You should be able just sit back and enjoy your Tivo, I still do.


I don't really have a choice at this point, since a) it's not a big enough deal to cancel my service, b) the ads curiously started appearing after my 30-day trial was up.



> Tivo still does everything it did when I bought it and I am still paying the same price per month. In fact, since I bought the Tivo, many new features (MRV, TTG, Music & Pictures, etc.) have been added WITHOUT a hike in my service fees! I feel I am getting even more value from my Tivo.


As another topic mentions, sometimes subscribers just need a DVR. I do not use any of the other features and honestly do not know what the first two acronyms mean!



ZeoTiVo said:


> My comment on the time posting was simply noting the irony of how little the ads truly affect your use of the TiVo DVR versus the time required to complain about them.


Moot point, since the point of the OP is the [links to the] ads are present, and that they are annoying. The first part is a known, indisputable fact, and the second is subjective. Would you rather just not hear about it just so you feel better?


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

ah30k said:


> And I say that your example of 'changing the way you interact' is bogus because it happens so infrequently. If you want to cling to your argument then go ahead.


I use the left arrow rather than the TiVo button which I used all the time (and is in the most convenient location on the remote control) to avoid seeing the ads. There has also been mention of some users (maybe) having to turn off the sound to avoid the chime. I know I'm using the left arrow several times a day now, but at least I have a choice. I might have discovered using it if I had read the forum earlier, but I actually found out quite by accident that you don't see the ad if you hit the left button at the end of a program and not the TiVo. Besides, the left button takes me back to the group I was watching, anyway.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

JaneiR36 said:


> I use the left arrow rather than the TiVo button which I used all the time (and is in the most convenient location on the remote control) to avoid seeing the ads. There has also been mention of some users (maybe) having to turn off the sound to avoid the chime. I know I'm using the left arrow several times a day now, but at least I have a choice. I might have discovered using it if I had read the forum earlier, but I actually found out quite by accident that you don't see the ad if you hit the left button at the end of a program and not the TiVo. Besides, the left button takes me back to the group I was watching, anyway.


I responded to the quote about the lack of two-button access to the settings screen being a 'changing the way you interact' with TiVo issue because access to the setting screen is so infrequent that it hardly qualifies as impacting your TiVo experience if it takes three clicks. You point about the sounds is a much more valid point and if I had sounds on I would be annoyed too. As for seeing the ad at the bottom of the list being so horrific, I just don't get it. I guess it bothers some so much they need to carry the torch about how terrible it is. Not me. You can't argue personal preferences. You are entitled to your views.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

JaneiR36 said:


> I was actually looking forward to this part of your post! So you can't come up with any other company you'd so willingly support in this same manner, almost as if it were a charity?


Off the top my hear, Apple Computer would certainly fit this definition (just change Charity to Cult. ) Apple has a very loyal following that, not only buys their product, but wants they company to succeed and survive.

But any company that I need to maintain an ongoing service relationship with (Verizon Wireless, XM Radio, even Comcast) I want to succeed. If I didn't feel that I was getting the best service (for me) and best value I would go somewhere else.

This isn't charity, if Tivo were to cease business, I would be forced to use (IMHO) a substandard DVR service.



> Personally, I think if TiVo went out of business, a more successful business model would take their place, so that's no excuse for paying customers to suddenly become a free target advertising audience when we paid for no commercials.


Many have tied, few have succeeded. I don't know if you ever heard of ReplayTV, but they had nealy the same business model as Tivo (sell the hardware, monthly fee for the service). They could not make enough money to continue this business. They tried becoming a software company and now were just sold to DirecTV (reported ONLY for the patents it held.)

We are left with Tivo and and the cable/Sat companies to provide us with DVRs (I know that computer solutions exist, but most people want a plug and play box.) This is NOT a level playing field. Cable/Sat companies can subsidize their DVR costs with their regular cable fees (it costs the Cable companies several hundred dollars for each of those "free" DVR.) Tivo doesn't have any way of subsidizing their income. They have to make money by selling Tivos, keeping subscribers, and (unfortunately) selling Ads.

Personally, if another DVR company came along and offered a better solution, I would consider getting rid of my Tivo. But, as of right now, Tivo is the cream of the crop. If they go out of business, I am stuck with my piece of crap Comcast DVR.



> PS: I haven't mentioned it, but I feel the ads are the biggest items on each of their respective screens. It's just a little annoying to see.
> 
> I don't really have a choice at this point, since a) it's not a big enough deal to cancel my service, b) the ads curiously started appearing after my 30-day trial was up.


 Ads have been in place longer than I have been a Tivo user (over 6 years). Yes the type and frequency has changed, but they have been. But they are also transitory, and don't always appear. You may have just caught a period of time that no ads were being shown.



> As another topic mentions, sometimes subscribers just need a DVR. I do not use any of the other features and honestly do not know what the first two acronyms mean!


MRV - Multiroom Viewing. The ability to watch to transfer a program from one Tivo to another.

TTG - TivoToGo. The ability to move a recorded program to your computer and portable devices (like the iPod) and watch them.

But, if as you say, you only need a DVR, then Tivo may not be for you. My Comcast DVR records programs just fine (most of the time.)



> Moot point, since the point of the OP is the [links to the] ads are present, and that they are annoying. The first part is a known, indisputable fact, and the second is subjective. Would you rather just not hear about it just so you feel better?


 No, but people need to understand why the Ads are a necessity. Does complaining about it make you feel better?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JaneiR36 said:


> Moot point, since the point of the OP is the [links to the] ads are present, and that they are annoying. The first part is a known, indisputable fact, and the second is subjective. Would you rather just not hear about it just so you feel better?


no, go ahead and complain all you want. I actually am fascinated by the mind set that gets so tied up in a knot over an ad image on TiVo central they look to avoid it. You seem fine with the clutter of shows in now playing since you do not seem to delete any when you are done playing them - but that ad image.........

Also - replaytv, as mentioned, tried to compete in the same standalone DVR business. They had a great product and were looking like it would be a real horse race. Then replay TV made the fatal mistake of going right at advertisers by even including an autoskip feature for ads in shows and of course an ad free box. They were sued into oblivion by advertisers over the autoskip. replayTV was just sold last week to directTV though current customers are still serviced by the holding company. TiVo does not do the ads they do just for some petty cash. They work in a business environment where the advertisers are the real money men. TiVo instead takes a path of working with the advertisers. So would you rather have a replay with no ads and great DVR functionality but on its last leg as a supported product? in short, no one else is rushing into this standalone DVR business.

BTW - companies I use while dealing with advertising they directly show me; 
Newspaper, XM radio, National Geographic, Scientific American, AOL, TiVo Community Forum, Bank Statements, Gevalia, Credit Card statements, Amazon, Nintendo, Bi-Lo, Food Lion, Best Buy, Disney, PIXAR, Movie Theater but I think you get the idea by now.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

I haven't read all the posts here but another thing just came to mind regarding Tivo's use of ads on menus and such. WTF is the big deal exactly? Every ad on Tivo requires that you click on it. You are not required to watch an ad before, during, or after you watch any show that you've recorded. Neither are you required to watch an ad when you first enter or exit the main Tivo menu or anytime while you are navigating. You are not charged for these ads, in fact they keep you from paying more for your subscription. Do the people angry with the ads get pissed off every time they open their Sunday newspaper or any day for that matter and see a bunch of advertisements interspersed among their news or do they just skip over them and read the articles in which they are interested. You all act like Tivo is a non-profit out to do what is in YOUR best interest. Tivo is a profit driven company who answers to their shareholders, not you. They are in the DVR business to make money and part of that comes from selling ad space, just like a newspaper or magazine which you also pay a subscription fee for. If you prefer, Tivo could always do away with the non-obtrusive ads and just sell your personal info to other companies like many others do leading to non-stop credit card approvals, etc.

Forgive me if I sound like a Tivo apologist but I've seen this complaint OVER and OVER by people who apparently don't understand how businesses are run or the point of a publicly traded company. Granted, there are other options besides advertising for Tivo to make money, but, seriously, with the cable co. DVR's being offered cheaper than Tivo's monthly service, most people are not savvy enough to realize the benefits that Tivo provides over those other DVR's and are therefore not willing to pay the higher cost for a Tivo. Tivo remains a rather niche market for higher-end users. Joe Schmo who wants a digital VCR will not opt for a Tivo when he sees a cable company DVR provides the services he is looking for. Little does he know that so much more is available with the current technology. I guess maybe Tivo needs to do a better job with their advertising because apparently that point is not getting across. So, the only solutions are to raise prices or sell advertising. If you ask me, and I'm sure most Tivo users agree, the ads are better option over having to pay higher rates per month, and I think Tivo sees it the same way. They'd rather pass the cost on to advertisers than to their customers who are already paying a premium for the service. 

Speaking of services that were/are supposed to be ad-free...I've received several text messages on my cell phone from advertisers, including Verizon (my cell phone provider) which I have to pay for every time I am sent a text message. I also have Sirius satellite radio which is was advertised as commercial free radio. Yet, the Howard Stern show takes breaks throughout the show with several minutes of ads even though I pay for a monthly service. 

Maybe it's because I've had Tivo for a few years and am accustomed to the layout of the menus but I couldn't tell you what ads (gold star or end-program) that have been on my Tivo's in the last several years. I don't even notice the gold star ads anymore and just go directly to the Now Playing or Find Programs screens. As for the end-program ads, I do notice those because I've only seen maybe a half dozen in over 3 years, but I couldn't tell you what they were for because I know when the show ends that Delete This Program is Up once and thats what I hit as soon as the menu pops up. 

People ***** about this like Tivo is taking over your TV and forcing you to watch commercials. If these line ads are that big of a deal that are annoying you...the solution is simple, cancel your service and go get a cable company DVR. I know a lot of people don't like that answer, but it's the truth. If these minor ads are causing you enough distress to post about it on here, then maybe the other DVR's would be more suited to your needs. If it's not that big of a deal, then let it go. If Tivo doesn't use the ads, they will lose money and may, eventually, have to cease operations. Would you prefer that alternative? If so, then, again the cable company is waiting for your call. If not, then bite your tongue. Compaining here will do no good, and again, would you prefer the alternative?


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

Heck, even on a TV Guide softwared Cableco DVR, there is an ad at the bottom of every page in the guide, so unless you use the page buttons, you are forced to pass through them.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

lol... this is getting ridiculous. I was just offering my own opinion that I thought seeing the ads was annoying, but apparently not only are you responding to that, many more people in the past have said they think it's annoying?!? Rather interesting that this feeling isn't in any way isolated, yet the response is shut the heck up, this isn't really a problem.

You're telling me to cancel my service if I think it's so annoying, yet you couldn't by-pass a topic that was clearly marked "hey, read-me if I want to see people ***** and moan about TiVo ads!!!"

WhiskeyTango, I do not read the Sunday paper. My cell phone company does not send me text ads. I sent "STOP" to a number they told me a long time ago and registered my cell # on the do not call list and I haven't seen those since. Why exactly did you click here if you're so sick of the complaining? No, cancelling my service is not the only solution. I hit the left button after a program and do not see any ads as a result!

Zeo, I almost religiously delete all programs after I'm done watching them. I'm down to four lines on my Now Playing screen (including suggestions) and watching Netflix DVD's instead. WTH did you get that ridiculous conclusion?

RBlount, YEAH complaining makes me feel better! I even got a few solutions to the issue at hand as a result! Did you read the topic before clicking in if complaining about the ads bothers you so much? Interestingly enough, though, the reason why you think TiVo may not be for me is probably also the same reason it's not doing so hot (most folks just need a DVR). *shrug*

Hey, if I have to research a product before purchasing it just so I don't expect no ads and suddenly start seeing them, how's that different from the risk you take when you purchase a lifetime service and the product turns out not to be available throughout your lifetime? How about Mom and Pop stores that eventually go out of business because a Walmart moved into town? If you're truly a fan of capitalism, you'd know the stronger business model almost always wins and your charity will not be enough to keep what you seem to feel is a weak business model afloat.

BTW: I don't necessarily think TiVo's model is weak. I'm just frustrated that they must advertise to make some real cheddah. However, I'm not particularly grateful that they chose not to pass on higher costs to their customers. If they had done that, the DVRs from the Cable or Sat companies would be even more cost competitive and I believe that they would have even fewer customers. I know personally I didn't jump on the TiVo bandwagon until the price of the box came down below $100.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

JaneiR36 said:


> lol... this is getting ridiculous. I was just offering my own opinion that I thought seeing the ads was annoying, but apparently not only are you responding to that, many more people in the past have said they think it's annoying?!? Rather interesting that this feeling isn't in any way isolated, yet the response is shut the heck up, this isn't really a problem. ...


I also don't understand why there are people here that tell me the ads don't bother me.


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## Lensman (Dec 22, 2001)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I also don't understand why there are people here that tell me the ads don't bother me.


No, no, they're not saying that. They're saying that complaining about the ads we're being too picky.

Now, let me not deceive you. I think the ads are fine. I'm sure that my opinion is colored by the fact that Tivo was a market innovator and now stands alone in keeping me from having to put up with the evil cableco DVR.

BTW, let's not forget to add Microsoft's UltimateTV to the list of competitive failures in this marketplace.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Lensman said:


> No, no, they're not saying that. They're saying that complaining about the ads we're being too picky. ...


Even with the clarification, no one can argue that what I perceive to be annoying is NOT annoying. Perception of the additional TiVo menu items is subjective. I personally I HATE them, but I respect that other people don't hate them.

On this board there is another thread, where a poster (Zeo if I remember correctly), has made it clear that some of the animated ads take up too much screen real estate, and interfere with his enjoyment of the show being broadcast. He stated that he will probably not watch the network when they air that particular show again. Additionally, he is going to complain to the network. Both actions are appropriate responses to a situation that he feels is unacceptable.

My problem is this: Since it was his invisible line that was crossed, it's justifiable for him to publically state this, but when another poster's invisible line, that is set lower than his line, is crossed, it has to be pointed out that the person with the lower threshold is just not perceiving things the "right way". In other words his way. This is hypocritical. Live and let live. Everyone has an opinion, and just becasue it's been posted here, doesn't mean that someone has to try and dispute it. It's not like someone is claiming that 2+2=5.

Getting back to the animated ads: I disagree with Zeo's opinion that the animated ads are a reason to stop watching a show, but I did not chastise, or attempt to tell him that he is wrong. It bothers him, and he is taking action that he feels is appropriate. Kudos!

With all that said, I really dislike the TiVo ads. They annoy me. I also feel ripped off that I pay for a service that includes ads. It made me mad when someone posted that the ads don't appear until after the 30 day trail period is up. I don't know if this is accurate information, but if it is, arguing that you want to cancel your subscription, without penalty, holds a *lot* more weight if no ads were displayed during the trial period. The ads are not new, they are definitely part of the user interface, and to hold them back for the trial period is deceptive because it does not give an accurate representation of the real TiVo interface. Shame on TiVo if they are really doing this. Again, I don't know if that information is accurate, as I have no way of confirming this behavior - not without joining up as a new, never subscribed customer.

I am a very devoted TiVo fan, and I have spent a lot of money with them in the approximately seven years I have been a subscriber. I will NOT cancel my TiVo service until my invisible line is crossed, and frankly, I am not sure where that line sits yet. It hasn't been crossed, and it will take a lot to actually push me over it, but with each additional menu item / ad, it gets closer. Once it is crossed, I will be gone. Not a threat: Just a fact that I hope TiVo is interested in hearing.

Don't you think that TiVo wants to hear this type of detailed feedback? Granted, the demographics can't be taken into account, but as a general "gauge" I would think that they welcome people's opinions. Especially if it might one day lead to losing a subscription.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

Just to clarify, do you find the advertisements themselves annoying, or the fact that TiVo gives you the ability to click and watch them annoying? Compared to Internet advertising, would you rate it as more or less intrusive? Same question for those pop-up ads at the bottom of TV shows (done by the networks).

In my opinion, Tivo still gives you the ability to skip all of those commercials located in your shows. That has not changed. The menus include options to watch commercials or not. 

Also, I am sure TiVo loves the feedback everyone on this board gives. I think they have made a very serious effort not to alter your ability to do everything you do today with a TiVo interface. They haven't forced additional clicking that I have seen, nor have they forced additional fast-forwarding, and they have not shrunk your menu guide (like comcast). 

Believe me...if you are not aware of Comcast's butchering of its guides with ad placement, you should check it out.


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## Fraser+Dief (Nov 18, 2005)

kmill14 said:


> Just to clarify, do you find the advertisements themselves annoying, or the fact that TiVo gives you the ability to click and watch them annoying?


Simply, ads should *never* appear in a UI or content situation. When I drive my car, I should not have to scour the dashboard to find the gas gauge and speedometer amongst the ads pasted there. When I use my word processor, the menu shouldn't read Cut, Copy, Buy Coke, Paste.



mrmike said:


> All of these except the delete ones have been on my boxes longer than a year. What hardware do you have?


The Series 2 ad delivery to Canada has been on a different schedule than the US. You had ads long before we did.



ah30k said:


> With comments like this you've lost all credibility. Nonsensical exaggeration (or untruths) doesn't build up your point.


Dude. Those are *truths*. Sorry to interfere with your blind love of Tivo:

Guide data and approx. 10 channels missing for almost *THREE* months (and counting, I'll be shocked if they fix this before April 2008):
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5669118#post5669118


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Fraser+Dief said:


> Can't even get the freakin' guide data right for two+ months or bugs fixed in the software for over a year, but hey, we don't have time to deal with trivial items like that, we've got our entire staff working on ad delivery.





> With comments like this you've lost all credibility. Nonsensical exaggeration (or untruths) doesn't build up your point.





Fraser+Dief said:


> Dude. Those are *truths*. Sorry to interfere with your blind love of Tivo:
> 
> Guide data and approx. 10 channels missing for almost *THREE* months (and counting, I'll be shocked if they fix this before April 2008):
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5669118#post5669118


Point me to any evidence of bugs not fixed for over a year or the entire staff working on ad delivery. I call bullsh1t on you lame claim to 'truth'.

I am no fan-boy, it is just useless claims of truth on exaggerated issues make you look foolish.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Fraser+Dief said:


> Simply, ads should *never* appear in a UI or content situation. When I drive my car, I should not have to scour the dashboard to find the gas gauge and speedometer amongst the ads pasted there. When I use my word processor, the menu shouldn't read Cut, Copy, Buy Coke, Paste.


These are such disingenuous complaints. I think that's why people get so vehement on both sides of this disagreement. I don't have a problem with the ads. I know there are people that do. No biggie to me that they do. After all, it's not my place to tell someone what bothers them. But to make an argument like "my car doesn't have ads" makes the entire debate so specious . . .

My car doesn't either, but my newspaper does. And most web pages do. And yet I pay a subscription price for both my paper and ISP. So why ads?

See how ridiculous my argument sounds?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> On this board there is another thread, where a poster (Zeo if I remember correctly), has made it clear that some of the animated ads take up too much screen real estate, and interfere with his enjoyment of the show being broadcast. He stated that he will probably not watch the network when they air that particular show again. Additionally, he is going to complain to the network. Both actions are appropriate responses to a situation that he feels is unacceptable.
> 
> My problem is this: Since it was his invisible line that was crossed, it's justifiable for him to publicly state this, but when another poster's invisible line, that is set lower than his line, is crossed, it has to be pointed out that the person with the lower threshold is just not perceiving things the "right way". In other words his way. This is hypocritical. Live and let live.


there is nothing hypocritical in what I have done. You want to recast things in your own light to make your side sound better but that just backfires on you.

IN the the thread I started out querying people about the ads that broadcasters put up over top of the show. They were saying they took up 1/3 rd of the screen. I called BS a ta first but they showed me the Chuck episode(which I had recorded but not watched yet. What Did I do about it? just what you said. I deleted the show and season pass, I emailed the broadcaster and told them why I was no longer watching the show or going to their company website which was the crux of the ad.
What I did not do was immediately start 4 new threads on the subject complaining about it because that I would consider a waste of my time. I even was done with the original thread as I stated my piece and then did it.

Still these ads on TiVo threads keep going and only one person has taken action on it. You all can complain all you want about something you say annoys you but until you take specific action that shows the company it is not a viable approach, I and more importantly the company will not take you seriously


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> there is nothing hypocritical in what I have done. You want to recast things in your own light to make your side sound better but that just backfires on you.


You missed my whole point. Everyone's line is in a different place.



ZeoTiVo said:


> IN the the thread I started out querying people about the ads that broadcasters put up over top of the show. They were saying they took up 1/3 rd of the screen. I called BS a ta first but they showed me the Chuck episode(which I had recorded but not watched yet. What Did I do about it? just what you said. I deleted the show and season pass, I emailed the broadcaster and told them why I was no longer watching the show or going to their company website which was the crux of the ad.
> What I did not do was immediately start 4 new threads on the subject complaining about it because that I would consider a waste of my time. I even was done with the original thread as I stated my piece and then did it.


I read the entire thread before making my post. This doesn't change my opinion. I'll state it again: Everyone's line as in a different place.



ZeoTiVo said:


> Still these ads on TiVo threads keep going and only one person has taken action on it. You all can complain all you want about something you say annoys you but until you take specific action that shows the company it is not a viable approach, I and more importantly the company will not take you seriously


I don't like the ads. I have made it known to TiVo that I don't like the ads. At this point in time, I will not cancel my subscription because my line has not been crossed. I am not sure where the breaking point is, but as you found out, once I see it, I will know. That is when I will cancel. This is the risk that TiVo takes every time they take $$ for ads.

If you don't take me seriously, I will get by. If TiVo doesn't take me seriously, that would be a shame. I am a paying customer that wants to continue to be a paying customer. I have passed along valuable feedback to them. Are you saying that I should cancel my subscription even though I don't want to?


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## corp666 (Dec 25, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Nope. But I can say I have yet to see the first post in all these many threads on someone telling me they cancelled. What proof do you have that anyone has cancelled over the ads?


Today is your lucky day!

I am going to give you your first, second, third and fourth and fifth person who has cancelled over their ads.

First I would like to point out that it is highly unlikely that people who get POed over ads an cancel TiVo are going to hang around these forums just to let others know they cancelled over the ads.

I came upon this topic whilst doing a random search and got a link from another site. I originally purchased my TiVo in 1999. Yep, waaaay back then. That was before subscriptions were even necessary. I liked it so much I got my brother into it, and we got our parents one for XMas and our sister and grandmother too.

The first ad I remember was a new section on the TiVo main menu entitled something like "hot free offer from Lexus" and was a short commercial my TiVo had downloaded about how I could win a free Lexus. I called TiVo to complain and the ignoramus just kept parroting "its not an advertisement, its a free offer its different". Right. Shortly after TiVo did the whole "3.0" thing where they added the ability to tranfer shows between TiVos and upload pictures and do remote scheduling. And they started charging more for it. Around this time I noticed additional advertising coming my way. I cancelled my service and told them I thought the fact that I was now paying for data that was essentially free (TiVo does not create the guide data, they just distribute it) and also having them pump ads into my TiVo was too much. They argued with me whether it was ads or "free offers". I told them to shove it and I sold my TiVO. I then built a media PC with a hard drive that is superior to the TiVo in every way (IMO). I can download stuff from the internet and watch it, I can play DVD's, record/store/play Mp3's and pictures, use plug-ins for weather and traffic info, control my lighting and appliances, access it remotely to transfer files, schedule recordings from anywhere, extract and burn any shows I want and much more. And there are no monthly fees, no restrictions on what I can do, no advertising and I can add hard drives to my hearts content (currently have around 2TB of storage). Once my brother saw how much better this was than TiVo, he joined me and did the same thing, cancelling TiVo and letting them know the ads pushed him over the edge. My parents weren't into that level of effort to build an HTPC (and at that time there was really nothing off-the-shelf) so they waited until DirecTV came out with the HR20 and they got one which they like far far more than their TiVo overall. They say the TiVo was easier to use but the integration of the HR20 combined with the fact that it can record two shows at once and has no monthly fee and records in HD and "just works" is much better for them than the series I TiVO ever was. They had lifetime on their TiVo so there was really no cancellation involved, but they elected NOT go continue with TiVo based on our (me and my brother) recommending against TiVo due to the slippery slope argument you guys call false, as well as a cheaper and better performing alternative from DirecTV. We recently (this XMas) just got a 2nd HR20 for my grandmother.

So now we have no TiVos and overall we are much happier. I initially missed the ease of use of the TiVo but I'd never give up all the features I have now to go back. None of us ever found suggestions very useful so that is a non-issue, and once you know how to use the HR20 I dont think its any harder to use than TiVo - it's just different.

So, there you go - that sort of puts a dent in your "never heard of anyone cancelling over ads" argument - now you know of five folks.

Furthermore, I got on this forum years ago. Either I dont remember my account info or it was purged for lack of use - but I really don't recognize any of the posters on here. I remember when TiVolutionary was a regular poster along with Pony and I remember how big a blow it was when TiVolutionary went over to ReplayTV. That was at the very end of my tenure here - when I had started this forum barely had any posts at all. Almost all the people I remember have moved on. That may or may not be because of ads, but it's silly to presume that all of them leaving were because of reasons other than ads. That's akin to sticking one's head in the sand and proclaiming that there cannot be a forest fire surrounding you because you do not see it, therefore it must not exist.

Probably won't be back around to reply - just dropping in to make this post in response to the quote above. Not saying I won't be back for hate of TiVo or fear of reprisals, I have just moved on from the world of increasing monthly costs that are delivered along with increasing numbers of ads. Good luck to TiVo, from the latest financials I've seen they are going to need it.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

astrohip said:


> ...but my newspaper does. And most web pages do. And yet I pay a subscription price for both my paper and ISP. So why ads?
> 
> See how ridiculous my argument sounds?


Why do so many people keep using this analogy? Tivo, newspaper/magazine, and ISPs all have totally different business models that don't even relate to one another.

The price you pay for a periodical is for the distribution. The physical media is paid for by the advertising. Oh, and you're fooling yourself if you bring up the "Tivo takes a loss on hardware, so ads are justified" argument. Not everyone takes the mail-in rebate that is usually offered, so why should those folks have to put up with the ads? 

Your ISP is merely a pathway for content, just like cable and satellite TV. Your monthly fee, sans premium fees, pays for the pathway infrastructure and it's maintenance. The content in and of itself is a totally different animal all together, and this what advertising pays for (non-premium stuff).

The thing about Tivo is that they are blatant example of the "bait and hook" business model. They do not provide any content whatsoever, so there is no reason for it. Imagine buying the latest & greatest coffee pot with all of the advanced bells and whistles, including a pretty LCD readout on the front. Now, envision not being able to brew your morning joe unless you hook the pot up to the 'net and pay a monthly fee for the coffee brewing "service". To top it off, because you ARE hooked the 'net, you're inundated with a barrage of *"Head-On, apply directly to the forehead"* ads on the pretty LCD display. When you call to complain, the CSR tells you that the ads are necessary so that they can continue to provide the rich brewing experience you have come to know and love. What would you do? 

At one of our family gatherings this past weekend, someone asked about Tivo. Another member of the family (not me) blurted out, "don't they charge a monthly fee just to record T.V.?" I kindly spoke up and said, "Yes they do. Not only that, but they 'partner' with third parties to send advertisements to the box in the form of extra menu selections, popup ads, FF ads, showcase ads, etc. In addition, you are at their mercy when it comes to recording a show. Someone in the 'chain' may decide that they don't want a show to be recorded. All they have to do is send the Tivo a 'signal' and it won't record." Needless to say, everyone else pretty much said "eww, I'm never getting a Tivo."

BTW, hi Zeo!!  _*waves*_

___


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Fixer said:


> Your ISP is merely a pathway for content, just like cable and satellite TV. Your monthly fee, sans premium fees, pays for the pathway infrastructure and it's maintenance. The content in and of itself is a totally different animal all together, and this what advertising pays for (non-premium stuff).


funny - TWC here where I am does add in their own commercials for local businesses. That happens pretty much everywhere


> The thing about Tivo is that they are blatant example of the "bait and hook" business model.


 if they are so blatant then it should be easy for you to provide the details of this. I myself found no bait and hook, but ads and a TiVo box clearly stating that paying for a subscription service was needed to use the TiVo.



> Imagine buying the latest & greatest coffee pot with all of the advanced bells and whistles, including a pretty LCD readout on the front.


 did that coffeepot have software that was constantly being upgraded to provide new features. For instance could I play free music videos in the morning while I brew the coffee? Oh, I see - it is just a coffee machine and NOTHING like a DVR or TiVo to be more specific.



> At one of our family gatherings this past weekend, someone asked about Tivo. Another member of the family (not me) blurted out, "don't they charge a monthly fee just to record T.V.?" I kindly spoke up and said, "Yes they do. Not only that, but they 'partner' with third parties to send advertisements to the box in the form of extra menu selections, popup ads, FF ads, showcase ads, etc.


 yah those ads are on every menu and on top of the shows themselves and reach out and hit you on the forehead. Wow do you expect to be taken seriously with so much exaggeration? BUT WAIT there's more if you act right away ...


> In addition, you are at their mercy when it comes to recording a show. Someone in the 'chain' may decide that they don't want a show to be recorded. All they have to do is send the Tivo a 'signal' and it won't record."


 yah, that happens to me at least once a week if not more.  
So no one was up for paying the subscription service(which BTW, was clearly known even by people who had little interest in TiVo at your family get together - so much for bait and hook) in the first place and thus all your exaggerating did was just make the group think of , "gee, are we not all so clever" just go in deeper without any real intelligent thought involved.

so they can now wither Be there promptly at 8pm to watch their show and deal with a whole lot more ads in one show then will show up on the TiVo in 6 months or else get DVRs from the broadcaster and pay them a monthly fee for the DVR anyway, along with the monthly bill in which they hide further digital/DVR charges, and still get ads on those DVRs anyway.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

RBlount said:


> This isn't charity, if Tivo were to cease business, I would be forced to use (IMHO) a substandard *DVR service*.


See, that's the problem right there. Why do people keep referring to TiVo, or any DVR for that matter, as a "service"?

Zeo: Yes, the fancy coffee pot can play music videos. It even has a stock ticker and a live video stream of "FOX & Friends". 

___


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Fixer said:


> See, that's the problem right there. Why do people keep referring to TiVo, or any DVR for that matter, as a "service"?
> 
> ___


Because it is not a one time purchase. When I purchased the Tivo box, I understood that I would have to continue paying a monthly fee to provide me with, not only the guide data, but updates to the core functionality. I consider that a service.

Edit to add:

Unless you don't believe your own signature, you also consider Tivo a service also:



> TiVo should sell its boxes and *service* on its own merits, and not rely on "advertiser support". TiVo, "TV THEIR way".


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## Kilarney (Dec 20, 2007)

Pwned.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

RBlount said:


> Because it is not a one time purchase. When I purchased the Tivo box, I understood that I would have to continue paying a monthly fee to provide me with, not only the guide data, but updates to the core functionality. I consider that a service.
> 
> Edit to add:
> 
> Unless you don't believe your own signature, you also consider Tivo a service also:


The guide data is only thing I would consider a "service" and is what I am referring to in my signature. From a technical standpoint, the TiVo box should be able to pull guide data from any provider you choose; that is, if the box is properly hacked to do so (theoretical). Think of it as akin to unlocking a cell phone.

Regarding updates: Does the TiVo agreement promise updates? I haven't read it verbatim, but I bet the word "may" shows up a lot. I'm sure they've also reserved the right to remove "functionality" as they see fit, hence, _"TV *THEIR* way"_.

___


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## Curtis (Dec 2, 2003)

Fixer said:


> The price you pay for a periodical is for the distribution. The physical media is paid for by the advertising.


Do they keep the money in separate lockboxes?


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Fixer said:


> The guide data is only thing I would consider a "service" and is what I am referring to in my signature. From a technical standpoint, the TiVo box should be able to pull guide data from any provider you choose; that is, if the box is properly hacked to do so (theoretical). Think of it as akin to unlocking a cell phone.


So your point now is that Tivo DOES offer Service, but you it should be free (or low cost)? Do you think that Tivo gets from the Tribune for free? Tribune SELLS its programing information for a Fee. Yes, there are places to get this information for free, but not in the detail that allows a Tivo to do many of advanced scheduling features (Season Passes, 28 Day Rule, Wishlists, etc.)

IIRC, MythTV used a "backdoor" to the Zap2it to pull guide data for "FREE". Tribune did not like that people were getting data that they worked hard to collect, without paying for it. That loophole has since been closed, with Tribune offering to allow MythTV to connect, but at a price.



> Regarding updates: Does the TiVo agreement promise updates? I haven't read it verbatim, but I bet the word "may" shows up a lot. I'm sure they've also reserved the right to remove "functionality" as they see fit, hence, _"TV *THEIR* way"_.
> 
> ___


I have not read the complete agreement either, but I am willing to bet that Tivo has the right (within their agreement) to add or remove features as they feel is appropriate. I doubt this any different than any other software company (Microsoft, Symantec, Oracle, Apple, etc.) Although I am sure someone can point to one, I can not recall any feature they have removed (even if they are somewhat hidden, i.e. 30sec skip.)


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

astrohip said:


> My car doesn't either, but my newspaper does. And most web pages do. And yet I pay a subscription price for both my paper and ISP. So why ads?
> 
> See how ridiculous my argument sounds?


Not quite! There are websites I used to visit very often but eventually stopped using because they advertised too much, and sometimes the ads included spyware. It was just overwhelming and I no longer felt I could see the content I wanted, even though I really liked it. I switched over to another site with the same kind of information, even paying a subscription fee in one case. They say you get what you pay for, sometimes I am of the (apparently false) impression that paying more gets you away from certain kinds of ads.

I also started exclusively using Google as a search engine and my Home page just because of the simplicity of it, which rolls into how quickly the search pages load (only or mostly text advertising links, too, as far as I can see). I am definitely a fan of a clean format.

Maybe TiVo could clear off the ad from the screen after it's viewed, or give some sort of option to do so. I'm guessing they won't, though, just because they want all members of your household to be able to see their ad.

DCIFRTHS, now I'm guessing the ads didn't show up right away because my box did not ship with the latest software, so between downloading those updates and downloading the ad data, it must have taken a few weeks.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Fixer said:


> See, that's the problem right there. Why do people keep referring to TiVo, or any DVR for that matter, as a "service"?
> 
> Zeo: Yes, the fancy coffee pot can play music videos. It even has a stock ticker and a live video stream of "FOX & Friends".
> 
> ___


yep, just a couple of factual problems in the post but at least the coffee is fair and balanced...


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Fixer said:


> The guide data is only thing I would consider a "service" and is what I am referring to in my signature. From a technical standpoint, the TiVo box should be able to pull guide data from any provider you choose; that is, if the box is properly hacked to do so (theoretical). Think of it as akin to unlocking a cell phone.
> 
> Regarding updates: Does the TiVo agreement promise updates? I haven't read it verbatim, but I bet the word "may" shows up a lot. I'm sure they've also reserved the right to remove "functionality" as they see fit, hence, _"TV *THEIR* way"_.
> 
> ___


And when signing up for service, you agreed to every one of those.

-smak-


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## corp666 (Dec 25, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I myself found no bait and hook, but ads and a TiVo box clearly stating that paying for a subscription service was needed to use the TiVo.


You haven't been around that long, but in the past TiVo did just what you suggest they didn't. I bought 2 Series I units before a subscription was required. Then TiVo made a subscription required and only relented when pressure from those who were told they did not need a subscription mounted. Those folks were told "but you are also paying for software development - thats not free!" right up until they caved in and reverted back to the original deal they promised.



> did that coffeepot have software that was constantly being upgraded to provide new features.


Except when TiVo stops updating the units with new features but doesn't reduce the fee they charge (for guide data and software updates). Ask any Series I owner who hasn't gotten a software update in years but has seen their monthly fee go up and up and up....



> yah those ads are on every menu and on top of the shows themselves and reach out and hit you on the forehead.


There used to be no ads. Then there were a couple ads. Now there are a lot more ads, and more ads appear periodically. You suggested previously that nobody had ever posted a thread (utter bull, by the way) saying they cancelled because of ads. Now that such a claim is obviously untrue, you are saying the ads are no big deal and unobtrusive (presumably making that determination on behalf of the entire TiVo community)



> So no one was up for paying the subscription service(which BTW, was clearly known even by people who had little interest in TiVo at your family get together - so much for bait and hook) in the first place and thus all your exaggerating did was just make the group think of , "gee, are we not all so clever" just go in deeper without any real intelligent thought involved.


How condescending! I have steered many clear of TiVo, because it's not the deal it once was. For some people it's good but I cannot understand the rabid support TiVo enjoys by some here. TiVo doesn't care about you and probably won't be around in 10 years - why are some of you acting like you are financially tied to TiVo? The bottom line is that TiVo is generally the most expensive (in initial costs and ongoing costs) PVR solution. It has the easiest UI and offers suggestions. If one wants a low price, cable-company provided DVR's are universally cheaper. If one has satellite, the units offered by DirecTV/Dish are alot cheaper and are the only choice to record High-Def. If one wants all the bells and whistles and is not averse to the initial cost, an HTPC will surpass a TiVo except for cable provided HD content for which the HTPC is more expensive by a long shot initially.



> so they can now wither Be there promptly at 8pm to watch their show and deal with a whole lot more ads in one show then will show up on the TiVo in 6 months or else get DVRs from the broadcaster and pay them a monthly fee for the DVR anyway, along with the monthly bill in which they hide further digital/DVR charges, and still get ads on those DVRs anyway.


I dont get any ads at all on my HR20's nor do I get any ads at all on my HTPC. I also can rip DVD's (and I have a 200-DVD jukebox on the HTPC). I have tons of TV shows archive, multiple TB's of storage, I can stream shows to myself at work if I want and all of that without any monthly fees.

Different strokes for different folks, but belittling anyone and being condescending towards anyone who doesn't see things your way is inappropriate. Some people are better served by other options and to suggest that anyone who isn't a TiVo fanboy is too stupid to have a TiVo or too ignorant to know the difference is the height of arrogance and not constructive at all.

At least the "never heard anyone cancelling for ads" line will be retired to the "lines I can't use anymore" collection, yes?


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

RBlount said:


> So your point now is that Tivo DOES offer Service, but you it should be free (or low cost)? Do you think that Tivo gets from the Tribune for free? Tribune SELLS its programing information for a Fee. Yes, there are places to get this information for free, but not in the detail that allows a Tivo to do many of advanced scheduling features (Season Passes, 28 Day Rule, Wishlists, etc.)


I never expected the guide data to be free, but IMO, TiVo charges way too much for it. Their agreement claims that Wish Lists, Season Passes, Suggestions, etc. are also part of the "service", but that is hogwash. Those "services" do not require any effort on TiVo's part whatsoever. They are supposed to be features of the software that I invested in when I bought the box. It only needs the aforementioned guide data and input from ME to make it work (recording habits, thumb ratings, etc.). Since they change the "agreement" at will, and can declare anything on the box as a "service", it pretty much becomes a moot point, doesn't it?



RBlount said:


> IIRC, MythTV used a "backdoor" to the Zap2it to pull guide data for "FREE". Tribune did not like that people were getting data that they worked hard to collect, without paying for it. That loophole has since been closed, with Tribune offering to allow MythTV to connect, but at a price.


I don't know the real reason behind the shutdown of Zap2It's developer site (the free data), but it wasn't the fault of MythTV. From the little I have read, it seems that certain commercial abusers forced them to pull the plug. Although it's sad to see the free option gone, the replacement service cost is only $1.67 a month and is compatible with a lot of software.



RBlount said:


> I have not read the complete agreement either, but I am willing to bet that Tivo has the right (within their agreement) to add or remove features as they feel is appropriate. I doubt this any different than any other software company (Microsoft, Symantec, Oracle, Apple, etc.) Although I am sure someone can point to one, I can not recall any feature they have removed (even if they are somewhat hidden, i.e. 30sec skip.)


I don't think TiVo will ever remove any "features" either, but not because it comes from the goodness of their hearts. They need it to justify slipping the other crap in. This includes ad delivery mechanisms, habit mining techniques, DRM, etc. The fabled "horse of wood" has taken a new shape.

Have you noticed that whenever they add something "new", the GUI gets slower? Isn't it the GUI that TiVo gets praised for? If you start giving your customers a bad experience with the core functionality, what do you think is going to happen?

___


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

corp666 said:


> You haven't been around that long, but in the past TiVo did just what you suggest they didn't. I bought 2 Series I units before a subscription was required. Then TiVo made a subscription required and only relented when pressure from those who were told they did not need a subscription mounted. Those folks were told "but you are also paying for software development - thats not free!" right up until they caved in and reverted back to the original deal they promised.


 you are right I was not here for the actual transition for required service. I was here when TiVo screwed up somewhat on transitioning from paid HMO to part of the service HMO. TiVo dos indeed screw some things up. Nowadays the S1 TiVo DVRs will work without subscription will get Guide data in a manual record mode and will do so until it falls apart. Lifetime Service for S1 had some kind of marketing screw up as well and people to this day are transferring S1 lifetime to a new Series 3 unit for free. TiVo the company does not care about me the individual, that is true, they do want to keep their customers and have shown in various ways they are willing to fix their screw ups for customers.


> Except when TiVo stops updating the units with new features but doesn't reduce the fee they charge (for guide data and software updates). Ask any Series I owner who hasn't gotten a software update in years but has seen their monthly fee go up and up and up....


 so how do you propose TiVo get the new features onto the S1  We all know of course that you can buy an S2 extremely cheap, if you upgraded the drive in the S1 you can pull it out and put it in the S2 with the same simple process. Depending on the OS that came on the S1 - you can even keep the S1 running in the manual mode. Seems incredibly foolish to me as well for anyone to keep a monthly payment S1. Anyone with lifetime on the S1 has seen it pay off many times over by now and also can make use of several deals to transfer that lifetime to a new box ether for free or 199$.



> There used to be no ads. Then there were a couple ads. Now there are a lot more ads, and more ads appear periodically.


 - See, right here this is what happens. "now there are a lot more ads" - a poster says something highly subjective as if it was fact. 
so we go from the no ads of your S1 time to one yellow star on main menu and billboard on delete screen. The thumbs up stuff can be ignored and who goes into showcases anyway. So you may subjectively call that a lot, but factually it is not much at all. TiVo has seen the cliff edge of any really intrusive ad(the old interstitial ads) so I discount any slippery slope argument.



> You suggested previously that nobody had ever posted a thread (utter bull, by the way)


 so can you link to the post where someone else had cancelled over ads?

snipped out the part where you condescendingly lecture me on being condescending 



from the other post by corp666 said:


> Right. Shortly after TiVo did the whole "3.0" thing where they added the ability to transfer shows between TiVos and upload pictures and do remote scheduling. And they started charging more for it. Around this time I noticed additional advertising coming my way. I cancelled my service and told them I thought the fact that I was now paying for data that was essentially free (TiVo does not create the guide data, they just distribute it) and also having them pump ads into my TiVo was too much


 so you point to price rise heavily in both posts *and also* the ads. I think you just wanted to bust my chops and truly cancelled because of the monthly sub/fee increase.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so you point to price rise heavily in both posts *and also* the ads. I think you just wanted to bust my chops and truly cancelled because of the monthly sub/fee increase.


Not saying this is OP's point, but as we've tried to explain several times over, everyone's breaking point is different. As a new customer I chose to pay for three years up front (and two minutes later they come out w/the Lifetime deal again  Oh well). If they suddenly asked me for $200 to continue my service, I would weigh the pluses and minuses. It would help TiVo's case a lot if there were a lot fewer things in TiVo's minus column _and _in the Competition's plus column, wouldn't you agree?

Like you've said, this is rather subjective, but I would also agree that there are "a lot more ads" compared to when I first got my box. First there were no ads, then the one ad that disappeared if you watched it. Now you watch the ad and a new one just takes its place. The screen is never truly clean and void of non-strictly TiVo service material, and it appears in at least two places (Now Playing screen, & at the end of a program).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JaneiR36 said:


> Not saying this is OP's point, but as we've tried to explain several times over, everyone's breaking point is different. As a new customer I chose to pay for three years up front (and two minutes later they come out w/the Lifetime deal again  Oh well). If they suddenly asked me for $200 to continue my service, I would weigh the pluses and minuses. It would help TiVo's case a lot if there were a lot fewer things in TiVo's minus column _and _in the Competition's plus column, wouldn't you agree?


 well put as pure logic of course what you said is correct... as pure logic. Obviously ads are not hurting TiVo incs. bottom line so it is not much of a minus in the overall picture.



> Like you've said, this is rather subjective, but I would also agree that there are "a lot more ads" compared to when I first got my box. First there were no ads, then the one ad that disappeared if you watched it. Now you watch the ad and a new one just takes its place. The screen is never truly clean and void of non-strictly TiVo service material, and it appears in at least two places (Now Playing screen, & at the end of a program).


sorry but ads on two screens out of all the screens there are is just factually a small percentage of the GUI and simply not a lot more ads. It is a very subjective statement to state otherwise.

Would I be fine if there were no ads tomorrow? If it did not lead to an increase in my rate or a decrease in resources spent on new features, then sure, I do not need the ads. So this has never been a defense of the ads or TiVo, just being objective as I can is all.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

> sorry but ads on two screens out of all the screens there are is just factually a small percentage of the GUI and simply not a lot more ads. It is a very subjective statement to state otherwise.


lol... yes, subjective, but in my case anyway, two heavily used screens?!?  Once the SP's are set up I mostly just come back home and watch TV, which for me involves hitting the TiVo button. If I don't hit it twice, I see the ads. The ad at the end of the show would be visible again if I hit the TiVo button rather than left. These would be visible all the time except I have to modify the way I use the product to avoid seeing them. Would the TiVo button really be the biggest if it weren't to be used more often than most?

PS: So TiVo increased their subscription costs, anyway?!? So much for ads saving us all


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JaneiR36 said:


> I have to modify the way I use the product to avoid seeing them.


must be hell for you to read the paper or drive down a highway


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> must be hell for you to read the paper or drive down a highway


I don't read the paper and actually just saw those digital billboards during the holidays in Atlanta for the first time. Those are pretty!!  The Airtran ad no longer features Micheal Vick  And Delta now flies to an African city non-stop.

Maybe TiVo needs to figure out a way for their customers to actually give a hoot about the ads? For instance, I would potentially be in the market for a new car in the next few years, but a Jaguar? (or even a Lexus?) Please. I certainly don't give a hoot about Martha Stewart, and only recently figured out that "Atonement" was a movie. (from the pop up thumbs up commercial).

All that notwithstanding, I like this explanation for why TiVo does ads: Because they can. They don't need to "figure this out" because like you said, it's not their problem, it's ours. We're the offended parties, and even if we did cancel, I personally think it'd just be a drop (out of) TiVo's bucket, anyway. *Shrug* However, someone (not I) already mentioned the ads thing on an Amazon.com review. I know I read those reviews over and over again before purchasing. I don't recall reading that particular one, but I do wonder how potential customers might feel about being used as an ad base.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Nowadays the S1 TiVo DVRs will work without subscription will get Guide data in a manual record mode and will do so until it falls apart.


WOW! Thanks for the info! I own three of these buggers! (all shipped with ver. 1.2x, bought early to mid '00)


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

TiVo has one and only one responsibility - to make money for its shareholders. If they can make more money from ad placement than they loose from upset customer's revenues they have a fiduciary responsibility to do it. Just the facts Maam. If the management team is not interested in making money, the board should replace them with someone who is. This is not a company in business to please people, it needs to make money. Now don't get me wrong, if upset people start to impact earnings them by all means it is wrong. I just don't think they are anywhere near crossing that line.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> must be hell for you to read the paper or drive down a highway


Again, TiVo compared to printed media. Like every other piece of CE equipment in my home, TiVo has an upfront cost. Also, aside from guide data (which you pay to get), TiVo doesn't provide any content whatsoever. So, why do so many people keep using printed media as a comparitive business model? 

The billboard comparison almost made me fall out of my chair from laughing so hard. Apparently, you have no clue as to how billboard advertising works. I'll just leave it at that.

___


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JaneiR36 said:


> All that notwithstanding, I like this explanation for why TiVo does ads: Because they can. They don't need to "figure this out" because like you said, it's not their problem, it's ours. We're the offended parties, and even if we did cancel, I personally think it'd just be a drop (out of) TiVo's bucket, anyway. *Shrug*


well actually TiVo includes ads becuase they can _make money_. that last part is the rather important part to TiVo inc.

and yes - there will be a pretty small percentage that clicks on all the ads and checks them out.
A small percentage that clicks on ads of interest and ignores the rest (group I am in)
a large percentage that does not care and just ignores them
a small percentage that can not stand they are visible ads at all
a miniscule group that cancels. most likely becasue of price but ads will be included in their reason and have some impact on the decision


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Fixer said:


> Also, aside from guide data (which you pay to get), TiVo doesn't provide any content whatsoever.


well the only video made directly by TiVo is the welcome ones that come on a new box and that hilarious Blue Moon Video

but I do get free Music Choice videos and a growing list of TiVocast options as well. Then there is the sometimes free but usually paid for UNBOX downloads. Also third party HME apps though that feature set has stalled over the past year. Sure that content can be found elsewhere but then so can most newspaper and magazine content. It is all about the delivery and packaging of the content once you step outside the production studios.

And TiVo is not wanting to be just another CE device in your rack, and indeed would not stay in business with that focus. If TiVo is doing its job, it is focused on the packaghing and delivery of content in a simple way to play on the TV screen that is of value to the end consumer, much like a newspaper or magazine business model of old school print days. The Kindle or XM radio is a much closer comparison except they focus on a specific type of media


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## carguy84 (Jun 8, 2006)

> Also as others asked can you please describe exactly what you had to do differently to use your DVR. Exactly how intrusive was this ad?


Ya exactly. I mean it would be one thing if Tivo wasn't free, but since there is no service fee involved that we are paying every month, I think it's totally acceptable for them to push ads on us.

Oh wait, no, that's not true at all. We ARE paying Tivo, and now they are biting the hands that feed them. Not a smart move on any part, extremely short sighted, and maybe a real warning for revenue projections to come.

I can only guess, those who are saying it's ok are either Tivo employees, or people who get jacked over at car dealerships. One or the other for sure. OK, or maybe middle management. 

Chip-


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

carguy84 said:


> I can only guess, those who are saying it's ok are either Tivo employees, or people who get jacked over at car dealerships. One or the other for sure. OK, or maybe middle management.


No, we are people who realize TiVo has not turned a profit since day-1 and are looking for revenue sources to help keep them afloat. Would you volunteer to raise your service fee rates to keep them in business without alternate sources of revenue?

To me the choice is simple. Put up with the non-intrusive ads are go without TiVo since they are out of business.


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## curlyroller (May 24, 2007)

Fixer said:


> Again, TiVo compared to printed media. Like every other piece of CE equipment in my home, TiVo has an upfront cost. Also, aside from guide data (which you pay to get), TiVo doesn't provide any content whatsoever. So, why do so many people keep using printed media as a comparitive business model?


TiVo *does* provide "content": the interface/guide. the TiVo interface is the gold standard at this point. the interfaces on all other DVRs are constantly being compared to TiVo's, and falling miserably short, i might add.

this content is valuable, and if you don't like the print media comparison (which i personally find valid), let's compare it to television. you pay for cable channels, and yet they are also laden with commercials. you are paying for content, and in order to keep that price down, the channels supplement their income with advertising. it's a legitimate business model, one that consumers have been happy to participate in for some time.

TiVo promises a way around the commercials of television, but they have a right to supplement their income with advertising. and for most of you they still save you a TON of money over ad-free DVR service through your cable/satellite company. if you don't think it's a good value, don't pay.


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## dlowings (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm glad to see so many people are for the new add placements ... However I think you tend to miss the POINT, I pay for this service. Are these people who place these adds helping by lowering the cost of my subscription. The short answer to that is NO ! I have no gain in the adds, hence I think I have a right to not see them. Do ahead and make your hair brained excuse as to why the adds are not that big of a deal, it just reminds me how dumb society is getting these days. Try to make a case how by placing these adds is good for Tivo , and keeps it afloat. I have three Tivos , and I for one AM shopping around for something else... I have been a Tivo customer for years, and have gladly payed my subscription fee on all three systems. Its no wonder Tivo is posting a loss, and I venture to guess that all the die hard Tivo fans that are now getting hosed over will see the light and leave.... Tivo is not the only game in town and the are not the best game in town.... I and many others feel betrayed by Tivo, and I hope in the end they get what is coming to them.


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## noname_com (Nov 30, 2007)

I was pissed at first also.
But this does not happen every time just ever now and then
And like the other posters say how did this imped you from you normal functions?


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

curlyroller said:


> TiVo *does* provide "content": the interface/guide. the TiVo interface is the gold standard at this point. the interfaces on all other DVRs are constantly being compared to TiVo's, and falling miserably short, i might add.


The guide is a necessary component of the DVR's scheduling feature, but is not needed by the end user. So, I've never considered it "user consumable content" in the traditional since. BTW, the TiVo interface is one of the slowest in the industry, so I wouldn't exactly call it "gold standard". 



curlyroller said:


> this content is valuable, and if you don't like the print media comparison (which i personally find valid), let's compare it to television. you pay for cable channels, and yet they are also laden with commercials. you are paying for content, and in order to keep that price down, the channels supplement their income with advertising. it's a legitimate business model, one that consumers have been happy to participate in for some time.


TiVo deals in CE and software; the others are media companies. Two totally different business types, so I wish people would stop comparing them. :down: At this point in history, TiVo is more akin to Apple, and you don't see Apple force feeding third-party advertising to their customer's hardware, do you?



curlyroller said:


> TiVo promises a way around the commercials of television.


Please, OH PLEASE, show me where TiVo has promised this. This is one of reasons why ReplayTV got sued out of existence.



curlyroller said:


> ...DVR service...


Again, someone calls Digital Video Recorders a "service". Why, why, why???  Recording video to hardware I purchased is not a freakin' service!!! 

___


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## RobertJ (Jun 1, 2003)

curlyroller said:


> TiVo promises a way around the commercials of television, but they have a right to supplement their income with advertising. and for most of you they still save you a TON of money over ad-free DVR service through your cable/satellite company. if you don't think it's a good value, don't pay.


I already paid $800 for my Series3, plus $300 for a transferred lifetime subscription. This is a premium price for what should be a premium product. It's mine, and I paid for it. Tivo doesn't have the right to decide to start pushing extra advertisements on me.

If I paid $1100 for some other consumer electronics device, would it be OK for that manufacturer to start pushing advertisements on me because that company wasn't t profitable?

How about if Apple takes a turn for the worse? Can they start pushing a "nonintrusive" 10 second advertisement on my iPod between every song to generate extra income? How about at the end of every tenth song? What's acceptable?

How about if I buy the latest $5000 plasma TV? Can that manufacturer start deciding to start pushing additional advertisements on me when I turn the TV on if it's not doing very well financially? How about displaying advertisements when the TV is turned "off"?

If you don't mind extra advertisements, then I'm happy for you. However, I do, and quite a bit. I really dislike this apologetic attitude that "Tivo can do no wrong," or "Tivo is in difficult financial straits so it's entitled to milk us dry with advertisements."

Tivo can choose to be an advertiser-supported model, or it can choose to be a premium product that charges for subscriptions. I'd even be happy with options, where you could choose to save $5 month by allowing advertisements. However, it is not OK for Tivo to start forcing advertisements on people after they've already spent the money on the hardware and/or the subscription.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

noname_com said:


> I was pissed at first also.
> But this does not happen every time just ever now and then
> And like the other posters say how did this imped you from you normal functions?


Is impeding "normal functions" a prerequisite for not liking something?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well actually TiVo includes ads becuase they can _make money_. that last part is the rather important part to TiVo inc.
> 
> and yes - there will be a pretty small percentage that clicks on all the ads and checks them out.
> A small percentage that clicks on ads of interest and ignores the rest (group I am in)
> ...


If possible, would you please define, in numbers, "small percentage", "large percentage" and "miniscule group"? Was this info published in TiVo's earnings report? If not, how did you determine the group size? Counting posts in the forum? No sarcasm intended.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

DCIFRTHS said:


> If possible, would you please define, in numbers, "small percentage", "large percentage" and "miniscule group"? Was this info published in TiVo's earnings report? If not, how did you determine the group size? Counting posts in the forum? No sarcasm intended.


I'm glad someone besides me called him on this. I envision a really long arm and... oh, nevermind. 

___


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

dlowings said:


> I pay for this service.


I pay for the newspaper. I pay for National Geographic. I pay for Wired. They all have ads. Why? Because what I pay them is not enough to cover the cost of what they're providing to me. They make up the difference (or some of it, in TiVo's case) with ads.

Hell, I pay for Internet service, and a hell of a lot more (over four times as much) than I pay TiVo (for four boxes), yet my ISP is rolling out broken DNS servers that redirect me to ads if I look up a nonexistent domain. That one I'm pissed about because it actively breaks the functionality of my service, unlike what TiVo does.

I do agree that the interface is getting slow on S2 boxes. It's (probably) not due to the ads, though. Get a THD or S3 and you can stop whining about slowness. 

And if you bought anything but an S1 (pre 2.0, that is) and complain about TiVo "suddenly" "pushing ads on" you, you lose. You can dislike it, sure, but it hasn't changed, so you're basically just tilting at windmills. Windmills you knew were there from the start. There have been ads nearly since day one, what with TiVomatic and the gold star items, then on to showcases.

I will admit that I found the gold star menu to be exceedingly annoying, but only because it made it harder to put the thing in standby. My Harmony remote has eliminated that irritation, thanks to TiVo so thoughtfully having an 'off' code. 

And just for what it's worth, on a per-DVR basis, I'm paying much less to TiVo than I would be my cable company, who charges a nice $9.99 "DVR service" fee on top of the box fee. Go figure. (and theirs doesn't work half the time; I know, as I have one that I really should give back!) A DVR is apparently a service to them, too. And DirecTV, although their charge is much more reasonable!


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

wierdo said:


> ....
> Hell, I pay for Internet service, and a hell of a lot more (over four times as much) than I pay TiVo (for four boxes), yet my ISP is rolling out broken DNS servers that redirect me to ads if I look up a nonexistent domain. That one I'm pissed about because it actively breaks the functionality of my service, unlike what TiVo does.


Configure your PC/Router to use a different DNS then. You're not stuck with the one your ISP provides. For example OpenDNS


wierdo said:


> I do agree that the interface is getting slow on S2 boxes. It's (probably) not due to the ads, though. Get a THD or S3 and you can stop whining about slowness.
> 
> ......


TiVo's crappy software "upgrade" degraded the performance of almost a grand's worth of my hardware and your solution is to buy more of their equipment?


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

RoyK said:


> Configure your PC/Router to use a different DNS then. You're not stuck with the one your ISP provides. For example OpenDNS
> 
> TiVo's crappy software "upgrade" degraded the performance of almost a grand's worth of my hardware and your solution is to buy more of their equipment?


If you consider added features to be crappy, perhaps you ought not. Personally, I like the features. I find the increased indexing that allows things like the new Wishlist search features to be quite handy.

As far as using OpenDNS, that's all well and good, but some of us can't afford the latency of far away DNS servers. (and OpenDNS is broken, although in a different way) I'd be much happier if the local ones worked.  Telling me that is like telling you "don't click on the ads if they bug you." Sure, it's a workaround, but not one you'll be satisfied with. Most people would be OK with it, just as most people (probably) are OK with just not clicking on TiVo's ads, banner ads, or whatever else.

I do think it would be nice if TiVo could figure out a way to give the people who want it the choice of when to upgrade. Unfortunately for those of us who would care to take advantage of it, they see options like that as confusing to the normal user they consider their bread and butter.

And just for what it's worth, I've spent a crap ton of money on TiVo hardware and service (and upgrades) over the years, too. Personally, I still think it's worth every penny, having tried the other options on occasion. I'd rather see a few ads than suffer through my cable company's box that can't be bothered to record anything reliably, has less hard drive space than a stock THD, and costs more per month to boot. Hell, its interface (a DCT-3416 running Passport) is easily as slow as the S2 nightlight, only in a worse way. My TCD140 is faster than the 540 at most operations, FWIW.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Fixer said:


> Again, someone calls Digital Video Recorders a "service". Why, why, why???  Recording video to hardware I purchased is not a freakin' service!!!
> 
> ___


great then. You should be good to go with a VCR and no guide data. You can pick one up for 30$ at your nearest retailer. have fun


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> If possible, would you please define, in numbers, "small percentage", "large percentage" and "miniscule group"? Was this info published in TiVo's earnings report? If not, how did you determine the group size? Counting posts in the forum? No sarcasm intended.


that is as accurate as my SWAG based on life experience and reading other's opinions is going to get.


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## RobertJ (Jun 1, 2003)

wierdo said:


> I pay for the newspaper. I pay for National Geographic. I pay for Wired. They all have ads. Why? Because what I pay them is not enough to cover the cost of what they're providing to me. They make up the difference (or some of it, in TiVo's case) with ads.
> 
> Hell, I pay for Internet service, and a hell of a lot more (over four times as much) than I pay TiVo (for four boxes), yet my ISP is rolling out broken DNS servers that redirect me to ads if I look up a nonexistent domain. That one I'm pissed about because it actively breaks the functionality of my service, unlike what TiVo does.
> 
> ...


Nope. I subscribe to National Geographic too. I knew when I did that it would contain advertisements, and in return I'd get a great magazine at a reduced price.

I had and still have a Series 1. The only ad was a one-line gold-star text on the home menu for an advertisement. Slightly obnoxious, but not terribly intrusive.

I now have a Series 3. It was fine for about nine months, but then started rolling out new ads with the latest service "update" around October. Now I have banner ads on the main menu, banner ads when I fast forward, and banner advertisements at the end of the show. Just tonight, I noticed the latest revolting advertisement: a thumbs-up advertisement that makes a loud chime when you fast forward through it. All of these advertisements are doing the equivalent of jumping up and down and saying "HEY LOOK AT ME!"

That wasn't part of the bargain when I bought either the Series 1 or the Series 3 (both with fully paid-up lifetime subscriptions). These advertisements aren't benefiting me in the least, and they are degrading the entire experience.

I think we agree in principle... there's nothing wrong per se with using advertising as your revenue model, whether for a magazine or a DVR. But there needs to be full disclosure upfront. If you're going to sell something for many hundreds of dollars, and then choose to start making changes after people have bought it by pumping more and more advertisements, then you shouldn't be surprised when your customers get upset.

Again, with the iPod analogy: I could start a company that gives away really cheap audio players, with the tradeoff being that you have to listen to ads. Fair enough. However, if I sell a premium audio player with no ads, but then decide later that I'm not making enough money, it's not fair or right for me to change the rules mid-game and start pushing ads on the people who already bought the ad-free version.

From everything I've heard about Tivo's latest president, it's just going to get worse and worse. I think the company has jumped the shark.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RobertJ said:


> That wasn't part of the bargain when I bought either the Series 1 or the Series 3 (both with fully paid-up lifetime subscriptions). These advertisements aren't benefiting me in the least, and they are degrading the entire experience.


so if your S3 had ads right from the moment you turned it on that would be different? You do of course know that TiVo ads have been around for years and not exactly a secret.

and on the guided setup screen there is the txt of terms of service - ads are mentioned in that - but it is many paragraphs of reading all kinds of terms - not a simple bullet point of highlights


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## RobertJ (Jun 1, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> You do of course know that TiVo ads have been around for years and not exactly a secret.


You do know of course that Tivo has been increasing the quantity and intrusiveness of advertisements?

Please re-read my post. As I said, I have a Series 1 that has had some one-line on the home page. It's been that way for many years.

That's entirely different from the latest advertisements. If you don't understand the difference, then I'm sorry for you.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so if your S3 had ads right from the moment you turned it on that would be different?


Yes. It would be a completely different beast if TiVo advertised (ironic) its service as a vehicle for advertising.



ZeoTiVo said:


> You do of course know that TiVo ads have been around for years and not exactly a secret.


Yes. I know that, but if I was a first time user, and I didn't receive and ad on my box until after the 30 day trial period, I would be pretty pissed the first time I did receive one.



ZeoTiVo said:


> and on the guided setup screen there is the txt of terms of service - ads are mentioned in that - but it is many paragraphs of reading all kinds of terms - not a simple bullet point of highlights


Exactly! That's the point. The bad part of any deal is usually buried in the fine print...


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

I just turned on the TV, pressed the TiVo Central button, and something looked weird to me. There are now two menu items that are advertising something on TiVo Central 

One of them is advertising a TiVo service through a third party, and the other one is a straight-up advertisement. Both are links to buy something.

If I am seeing/figuring this correctly, there are 8 menu items on my TC screen. Two of them are links to spend more money. Hmm. Isn't that 25 percent of my TiVo Central screen?...


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

RobertJ said:


> I think we agree in principle... there's nothing wrong per se with using advertising as your revenue model, whether for a magazine or a DVR. But there needs to be full disclosure upfront. If you're going to sell something for many hundreds of dollars, and then choose to start making changes after people have bought it by pumping more and more advertisements, then you shouldn't be surprised when your customers get upset.


While I didn't know there would be ads when I bought my S1, every TiVo I've gotten since then I've known would come with ads. After my first S2, I knew there would be more ads than just the gold star at the bottom of the main menu.

I do agree that there has been a change in degree in the last five years, but not in character.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Exactly! That's the point. The bad part of any deal is usually buried in the fine print...


It's still there and is someone doesn't bother to read the Terms before clicking ok, it's their problem.



DCIFRTHS said:


> I just turned on the TV, pressed the TiVo Central button, and something looked weird to me. There are now two menu items that are advertising something on TiVo Central
> 
> One of them is advertising a TiVo service through a third party, and the other one is a straight-up advertisement. Both are links to buy something.
> 
> If I am seeing/figuring this correctly, there are 8 menu items on my TC screen. Two of them are links to spend more money. Hmm. Isn't that 25 percent of my TiVo Central screen?...


I just looked at this and again say, so what? The items are both at the bottom of the screen, they aren't inner mingled with the menu choices, I don't need to cursor over them to get past them.

Really, I hardly ever pay that much attention to TiVo Central to begin with.


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

As a soon-to-be Tivo user, I'm curious -- and a wee bit concerned -- about the prospect of ads in the Tivo system. I'm even more bothered by the suggestion made earlier that the ads are not presented until after the 30-day return-period, indicating Tivo doesn't want me to have an informed understanding of how their product really works until it's too late.

I'm not bothered by ads in principle; but if they take away screen space program functionality, that's not good.

Well, we'll see. I've just got the 1 yr sub, and the unit was free, so it's not that big of a deal if the system turns out to be overwhelmed by ads. And if they're unobtrusive then I won't mind.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Langree said:


> It's still there and is someone doesn't bother to read the Terms before clicking ok, it's their problem.


Great attitude! I'd love to do business with you someday.



Langree said:


> I just looked at this and again say, so what? The items are both at the bottom of the screen, they aren't inner mingled with the menu choices, I don't need to cursor over them to get past them.


You state that *YOU* don't have to "cursor over" the ads. Did you ever consider that maybe the ads impede the navigation of other users? Or are you just concerned that your navigational experience is not disturbed? For people that open TiVo Central to get to "Messages and Settings", the ads remove the ability to get to the messages and settings screen in two button presses. I'm sure you'll be pretty pissed when it gets to the point where pressing the TiVo button twice gets you an advertisement instead of the Now Playing list.



Langree said:


> Really, I hardly ever pay that much attention to TiVo Central to begin with.


I'll regurgitate your comment: So what? Just because you don't frequent TC doesn't mean that other's use TiVo the way you do.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ShoutingMan said:


> As a soon-to-be Tivo user, I'm curious -- and a wee bit concerned -- about the prospect of ads in the Tivo system. I'm even more bothered by the suggestion made earlier that the ads are not presented until after the 30-day return-period, indicating Tivo doesn't want me to have an informed understanding of how their product really works until it's too late.
> 
> I'm not bothered by ads in principle; but if they take away screen space program functionality, that's not good.
> 
> Well, we'll see. I've just got the 1 yr sub, and the unit was free, so it's not that big of a deal if the system turns out to be overwhelmed by ads. And if they're unobtrusive then I won't mind.


I was pointing out that if the ads are held back for the 30 trial period, I feel that that is deceptive. Hopefully you can keep track, and report back us when you do see an ad.

You will not be overwhelmed by ads, and TiVo has gone out of their way to to not force you to navigate around the ads. One exception is in my last post. As much as I hate the ads, the TiVo service is absolutely wonderful, and I would not cancel my subscriptions over them. My breaking point will probably be when an ad pops up before I am able to view a menu, or complete a function, without dismissing an ad.

Most of the arguing in this thread is based on principal. As you can see, there are many forum members who will try and convice you that the ads are a petty thing to complain about - even when you state that the ads do bother you.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Great attitude! I'd love to do business with you someday.
> 
> What attitude, it's a contract, and "I didn't bother to read it cause it was so long and used big words" isn't usually a good reason to not know the details.
> 
> ...


Do you really spend that much time fiddling with the settings that it irks you to have to press a button a couple more times?


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## lwilson (Mar 14, 2005)

No paid service should have commercials.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ShoutingMan said:


> As a soon-to-be Tivo user, I'm curious -- and a wee bit concerned -- about the prospect of ads in the Tivo system. I'm even more bothered by the suggestion made earlier that the ads are not presented until after the 30-day return-period, indicating Tivo doesn't want me to have an informed understanding of how their product really works until it's too late.


 ads have been argued on these forums for a long time and those that do not like them will try and bring out any detail they find to not like. Fair enough in itself but not exactly accurate in this case. TiVo does not withhold the ads in themselves for the first 30 days. It is a free trial period in which you can try out the service before setting up a subscription with TiVo. I am sure that free trial period is seen differently on TiVo servers and just does not hook in to the ad part. My last few TiVo DVRs I have activated service right away and always saw the ads within a week and that delay is becasue the ads need to be setup on the new TiVo and a latenight recording of the video needs to take place which you normally do not see or notice unless you are up that late. The recording goes to the Tivo partition on the hard drive and does not take up space on the now playing part of the hard drive for your recordings. Maybe the other poster would rather TiVo get all the ads setup right away first and then get around to getting the correct guide data and indexing it for all the scheduling functionality?



> I'm not bothered by ads in principle; but if they take away screen space program functionality, that's not good.


The current ad placement does not take away needed screen space for any functionality and the DVR operates as it would if no ads were there. What just has happened and caused all the current flap here is that a line item ad is showing up at the bottom of a listing of shows for shows like Medium and so forth. Again that does not take away any functionality and you play the shows the same as always.

Of course the reason the ads showed up in now playing lists is precisely because most people could easily ignore them on the main menu. Ads have a way of working it until they get noticed and have the effect the advertisers are after. That is the nature of ads and the true nature of the concern on this board underneath all the hyped up statements and counter points.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> For people that open TiVo Central to get to "Messages and Settings", the ads remove the ability to get to the messages and settings screen in two button presses.


I use TiVo button - slow button to get there in two button presses from anywhere. I do mess with my settings a good bit as well 
(of course just hit the slow button if already on the main menu)


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ... TiVo does not withhold the ads in themselves for the first 30 days. It is a free trial period in which you can try out the service before setting up a subscription with TiVo. I am sure that free trial period is seen differently on TiVo servers and just does not hook in to the ad part.


So you're saying that TiVo doesn't withhold the ads during the free trial - they just don't send any to the box until after the customer has committed - right? No sense in letting the potential customer get the WHOLE TiVo experience during the demo period


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

lwilson said:


> No paid service should have commercials.


If the choice is paying $29/mo with no commercials or $19/mo with commercials don't you think companies should be able to make the choice on which is best for their business model? Would you rather pay more to get rid of the ads?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

RoyK said:


> So you're saying that TiVo doesn't withhold the ads during the free trial - they just don't send any to the box until after the customer has committed - right? No sense in letting the potential customer get the WHOLE TiVo experience during the demo period


This does sound a bit fishy. I wonder what would happen if someone tried to cancel after the 30 days because on day 31 adds showed up?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> So you're saying that TiVo doesn't withhold the ads during the free trial - they just don't send any to the box until after the customer has committed - right? No sense in letting the potential customer get the WHOLE TiVo experience during the demo period


We do not know what is involved in hooking up the ads during the free, no sunbscription or account created yet trial so I can not really address that.

Now before now playing list ads I would say no big deal but with now playing list ads I do agree that the ads should be present with time for the customer to cancel out with no penalty


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

ah30k said:


> If the choice is paying $29/mo with no commercials or $19/mo with commercials...Would you rather pay more to get rid of the ads?


No, no, no!


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

I should get the Tivo on Monday; I'll take note of whether there are ads the first few weeks.

I don't care for ads in principle. Especially when I'm paying for a product and service, I think it's bad form to have ads intruding on it. But it's nothing new: pay for cable and still get ads. Ads before movies. Ads on DVDs. Ads on subscription satellite radio. 

Thankfully my ISP doesn't think it's necessary to force ads during internet use to prevent my bill to go from $40 to $50 (yet...).


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

ah30k said:


> If the choice is paying $29/mo with no commercials or $19/mo with commercials don't you think companies should be able to make the choice on which is best for their business model?


Um... no?

I gotta go with customers as the choosers.



> _Would you rather pay more to get rid of the ads?_


Um... yes?

Although I don't believe for a minute that the difference comes to $10 a month, I would like the option to pay extra for a guarantee of no ads, if TiVo insists on using ads at all. Mostly, though, I'd like for them to see me as their customer, not as their product, to be sold to advertisers.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> We do not know what is involved in hooking up the ads during the free, no sunbscription or account created yet trial so I can not really address that.
> 
> Now before now playing list ads I would say no big deal but with now playing list ads I do agree that the ads should be present with time for the customer to cancel out with no penalty


One thing I do know is that if an ad - any ad - ever shows up in my Now Playing list, I will cancel all my boxes in a heartbeat.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

DCIFRTHS said:


> One thing I do know is that if an ad - any ad - ever shows up in my Now Playing list, I will cancel all my boxes in a heartbeat.


I'm kind of starting to feel that way too.

I've been pretty forgiving of the slow trickle of additional ads thus far, but I'm noticing far more yellow stars appearing at the delete screen at the end of a recorded program. I've trained my eyes not to see them, because it's an element that I still have the power to avoid. I've noticed more and more of them after setting up new season passes, etc. And I've noticed the changes to the TiVo Central ads. Haven't seen a fast forward ad yet, but I'm sure it's coming. I programmed the remotes for 30 second skip just to avoid it.

But yeah. Put an ad in the Now Playing list, and I'll finally start to reconsider being a TiVo loyalist. Enough is enough.


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

Don't turn on groups...


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> One thing I do know is that if an ad - any ad - ever shows up in my Now Playing list, I will cancel all my boxes in a heartbeat.


They are there. If you use groups you WILL see them. They are not in all groups...yet


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> One thing I do know is that if an ad - any ad - ever shows up in my Now Playing list, I will cancel all my boxes in a heartbeat.


best get your boxes out  and be sure to let TiVo know why you are cancelling/moving on.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Shawn95GT said:


> Don't turn on groups...


I use groups. I don't recall seeing any ads in Now Playing List. I hope that I am not losing my memory


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> best get your boxes out  and be sure to let TiVo know why you are cancelling/moving on.


When did this start? What groups are the ads appearing in? I am going to call TiVo tomorrow, and let them know that if I see an ad in my NPL, that I am going to cancel. This really blows as I don't want to leave TiVo...


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

DCIFRTHS said:


> When did this start? What groups are the ads appearing in? I am going to call TiVo tomorrow, and let them know that if I see an ad in my NPL, that I am going to cancel. This really blows as I don't want to leave TiVo...


A quick look through now playing...

Cashmere Mafia (Miss America ad)

There would be more but until this season starts rolling, nothing is grouped (no multiple episodes).


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Shawn95GT said:


> A quick look through now playing...
> 
> Cashmere Mafia (Miss America ad)
> 
> There would be more but until this season starts rolling, nothing is grouped (no multiple episodes).


Checked two of my S3 boxes, and there are no ads. *But*, I think I do remember seeing one. The ad is at the bottom of the list of shows inside of a group. Correct?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Checked two of my S3 boxes, and there are no ads. *But*, I think I do remember seeing one. The ad is at the bottom of the list of shows inside of a group. Correct?


Correct.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Firstly, I have to say that I only found this thread as it came up as some sort of "suggestion" on the main (TivoComm Central?) page. Oh the irony 

However, if you will permit an observation or two from 'across the pond' 

I'm sure a lot of us here in the UK would gladly put up with some (non-instrusive) ads if only we could get a Series 3 unit. Seriously, I know _I_ would!

You may or may not know that we have had the S1 Tivos over here since around 2001 but since the manufacturer of those units (Thomson) pulled out of the deal to make them, Tivo have not had any luck in finding anyone to make the newer boxes.

Okay, we can hack them do a certain degree to add certain functionality (soft padding and Tivoweb for example) but I'm sure we'd love to have a S3 unit even with the targeted ads.

It's not like I don't see the TV ads anyway! Even at 60x FF they're still "watchable" to a degree 

Yes, I can see how _some_ ads might be made more obtrusive, but just just have an entry or two in Now Playing or TC wouldn't bother me as long as I wasn't being _forced_ to watch them.

Although Tivo was the first DVR, or rather PVR I suppose, in the UK there are now a number of others.

For satellite users there's the Sky+
For cable users there's the V+*
and for Digital Terrestrial, there's now something called Freeview Playback

While they all offer some similar functionality to Tivo, non of them come anywhere close in terms of, well, anything really. If Tivo released the S3 over here at the right price-point and correct marketing, I still believe they could be succesful. However, to balance things out a little, I think the main concensus over on the UK Forum is that Tivo have now actually "missed the boat" over here; which is a shame!

* Just out of interest, the V+ is based on your very own Scientific Atlanta 8300 boxes; just with Virgin Media's own software on it. These could quite easily (as I understand it) be converted to Tivos but although there _is_ support for the idea I don't think VM are interested. Idiots


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## netsurfer (Jan 16, 2008)

james.92 said:


> When/if that occurs, you read it here first.
> 
> Look, I love my Tivo and have used one since the summer of 2001. I just do not like where this seems to be going.
> 
> I hope you guys are right, but I really do not think so. Let's see what it looks like in a year or two.


They have only made a profit in one quarter out of the last eight years. Click on some ads to make them some money so that they will survive.


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## johnmccly (Mar 16, 2002)

Not happy with Tivo Inc:down::down::down:


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## curlyroller (May 24, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> great then. You should be good to go with a VCR and no guide data. You can pick one up for 30$ at your nearest retailer. have fun


shoot, 10 bucks on craigslist.


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## carguy84 (Jun 8, 2006)

> One thing I do know is that if an ad - any ad - ever shows up in my Now Playing list, I will cancel all my boxes in a heartbeat.


As mentioned before, they're already there.

I must say though, it's funny to read through this thread and see all the Tivo employees chiming in on how having ads isn't so bad. At least I assume they are Tivo employees who think showing ads to paying customers is OK; I don't know any intelligent beings who would think the same way. Biting the hand that feeds you...good call. sheep.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

DCIFRTHS said:


> One thing I do know is that if an ad - any ad - ever shows up in my Now Playing list, I will cancel all my boxes in a heartbeat.


Did you cancel all your boxes now?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

carguy84 said:


> As mentioned before, they're already there.
> 
> I must say though, it's funny to read through this thread and see all the Tivo employees chiming in on how having ads isn't so bad. At least I assume they are Tivo employees who think showing ads to paying customers is OK; I don't know any intelligent beings who would think the same way. Biting the hand that feeds you...good call. sheep.


Bah!

So you don't buy newspapers, magazines, or DVDs? There are a lot of things that you pay for that still contain ads.

The "TiVo employees" thing is one of my favorites. Generally it comes from small minded trolls who can't accept that people are different and have different preferences and priorities.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

nrc said:


> Bah!
> 
> So you don't buy newspapers, magazines, or DVDs? There are a lot of things that you pay for that still contain ads.
> 
> The "TiVo employees" thing is one of my favorites. Generally it comes from small minded trolls who can't accept that people are different and have different preferences and priorities.


Don't bother feeding him, if you look at is other posts you might notice it's not worth it.


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## jcaudle (Aug 16, 2004)

the ads are unobtrusive. Its not like a streaming network show where I have to watch the ad. Nowhere am I forced to watch them. I just ignore them.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

carguy84 said:


> As mentioned before, they're already there.
> 
> I must say though, it's funny to read through this thread and see all the Tivo employees chiming in on how having ads isn't so bad. At least I assume they are Tivo employees who think showing ads to paying customers is OK; I don't know any intelligent beings who would think the same way. Biting the hand that feeds you...good call. sheep.


not TiVo employees - we just have enough intelligence to know how to ignore the ads and get on with what is important - watching all the great shows in all the great ways TiVo Stand alone DVR's let us.

oh and all the personal type insults thrown out to the audience in general - bad call. Let's everyone know your argument is weak.


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## carguy84 (Jun 8, 2006)

baaaaah

They are biting the hands that feed them, and it will bite them in the end.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

carguy84 said:


> baaaaah


And you call us sheep.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

carguy84 said:


> baaaaah
> 
> They are biting the hands that feed them, and it will bite them in the end.


Let us know how you like your cable company DVR.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Those ads, which you don't have to watch, don't bother me as much as the stupid banner ads that appear on SciFi, TNT, etc etc etc. These sometimes take up the bottom 25&#37; of the screen. It's hard to avoid seeing those.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

JimSpence said:


> Those ads, which you don't have to watch, don't bother me as much as the stupid banner ads that appear on SciFi, TNT, etc etc etc. These sometimes take up the bottom 25% of the screen. It's hard to avoid seeing those.


sometimes they cover up subtitles or other text that are part of the show.. now those bug me.


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## dorian (Feb 16, 2008)

"Signs signs, every where there's signs.
Blocking out the scenery, blowing my mind."

Folks have always complained about advertising. But I have to admit, I've bought a couple of items in my life time due to advertising. (Tivo being one of them). As long as it doesn't block what I'm watching or make me click additional times on my remote, I'm all for revenue generation.


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## zundian (Mar 5, 2008)

JimSpence said:


> Those ads, which you don't have to watch, don't bother me as much as the stupid banner ads that appear on SciFi, TNT, etc etc etc. These sometimes take up the bottom 25% of the screen. It's hard to avoid seeing those.


Actually, it's the bottom 33% of the screen, otherwise known as "lower thirds" in the industry. I think MTV's a few years ago were the worst, in the middle third of the screen, or VH1's last year that took up the left 33% of the screen advertising for America's Next Top Model.


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## miller890 (Feb 15, 2002)

This week it looks like they removed the boxed ads from TiVo Central, at least on my two S3. We can only hope it stays that way; maybe feedback on the customer survey regarding their ad placement has prompted them to clean up the tivospam.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Naah, it's just between ads on yours
Mine has a new one for "Shell Films", whatever that is (I may never know -- I won't click the &*@#*@ thing


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## Moebius (Nov 25, 2002)

I think the thing that amuses me the most is people complaining that TiVo, as a paid service, should not have ads. Do these people subscribe to newspapers or magazines? What about the cable channels that are part of higher tier packages? What about premium networks? All of these things are paid services, and all of them have advertising.


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## blam (Nov 15, 2007)

My TiVo should not have ads of any sort. It is an appliance, not a newspaper.

What exactly am I paying for when I have tivo spam invade my machine?

I've already bought the box. It is my box and my hard drive. I own it.

I subscribe to the service to get program listings. I imagine this should be free but okay I'll grant them that I need to pay for them. I think what I pay for them is more than enough.

So now I'm getting ads. Why? What do I get for these ads? 

Free box? Nope, bought that.

Free program listings? No, pay for that already.

Free Content? Nope - I pay my cable company a sizeable sum each month to get programming.

So then, what are these ads doing for me? They are making money for TiVo, but what do I get out of it?

Nothing.

That is why the ads do not make sense on TiVo. It is an appliance. It is like if I got ads on my refrigerator. Or on my VCR instead of the blinking 12.

So I would hope that all of you realize that TiVo is selling your TiVo, your time, your menu screen... and you are getting nothing in return.

Please complain to any customer service poll.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

You think that after 201 posts of the same thing repeated over and over again people would let this thread just die a respectable death? I guess not.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ah30k said:


> You think that after 201 posts of the same thing repeated over and over again people would let this thread just die a respectable death? I guess not.


No, it needs to stay alive to point out over and over and over again - We pay a premium for our TiVo service and still it is riddled with ads Many of us do not like it. Something potential new subscribers deserve to be made aware of. If they still want to subscribe then at least they know about the situation.


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## dorian (Feb 16, 2008)

ah30k said:


> You think that after 201 posts of the same thing repeated over and over again people would let this thread just die a respectable death? I guess not.


Didn't your post just bump it up? Oh man, didn't my post just bump it up?? Arggghhhh.... its a never ending cycle!


(this reminds me of a post complaining about people that complain)

But a question keeps popping into my brain.... are the pople that complain about advertising on Tivo the same people buying tee-shirts with logos on them?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

dorian said:


> ....
> 
> But a question keeps popping into my brain.... are the pople that complain about advertising on Tivo the same people buying tee-shirts with logos on them?


Not me. Not once. Never. I can't for the life of me understand why someone would buy a tee shirt with "Budweiser" or whatever plastered on it. Never bought a car from a dealer without insisting in the contract that no dealer logo be on it either.

Edit: Well I do have a tee shirt with my alma mater's logo on it but I think that's a bit different.


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## blam (Nov 15, 2007)

dorian said:


> But a question keeps popping into my brain.... are the pople that complain about advertising on Tivo the same people buying tee-shirts with logos on them?


No, this is more like you buy a nice white cotton shirt. And you come home, put it on, look in the mirror and on the front appears "Get Norton 360 Now!"


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

blam said:


> I subscribe to the service to get program listings. I imagine this should be free but okay I'll grant them that I need to pay for them. I think what I pay for them is more than enough.


Would I prefer no ads? Yes..

But the few times I have had a cable box, it had FAR more ads on it than Tivos do, and they were FAR more intrusive, since they always took up a huge amount of the space that would otherwise show useful info.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

blam said:


> What exactly am I paying for when I have tivo spam invade my machine?


Service.



blam said:


> So then, what are these ads doing for me? They are making money for TiVo, but what do I get out of it?


Cheaper service, cheaper hardware.



blam said:


> Nothing.


See above. If you'd rather pay higher prices for the service, or for the hardware (or both) feel free to keep complaining that TiVo has found a way to keep your costs down by getting advertisers to buy space on the boxes.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

bdowell said:


> See above. If you'd rather pay higher prices for the service, or for the hardware (or both) feel free to keep complaining that TiVo has found a way to keep your costs down by getting advertisers to buy space on the boxes.


Haven't prices for additional units been _increasing _since we've been having these conversations?

I, personally, feel they advertise because they can. If they suddenly made a whole bunch more profit purely out of subscriptions, I just don't see them stopping the ads.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

JaneiR36 said:


> Haven't prices for additional units been _increasing _since we've been having these conversations?
> 
> I, personally, feel they advertise because they can. If they suddenly made a whole bunch more profit purely out of subscriptions, I just don't see them stopping the ads.


And how much more would those prices be increasing or increased to if there wasn't some additional revenue stream?

Or, how quickly would TiVo have gone under as a business leaving a bunch of bricks in people's homes because there is no longer a viable company providing guide data (which the system is keyed to using) or support (which would be needed if the system had any problems)??

I'm not saying I like the prices (I don't, which is why I am a DirecTV customer rather than a direct user of TiVo boxes on say a cable or FiOS system, where it would cost me more for the boxes, more for the service, more for less HD programming, etc.), but I understand where TiVo is coming from here. They are trying to squeeze revenue out of other places rather than coming back to customers and telling them that they have to raise the bill that much more for those customers.

If you could pay another $10 per month and lose the ads would you? If that was $10 more per box would it be worth it?

At some point you decide that it's not worth paying *not* to get the ads, or you decide to just drop the service. Hopefully TiVo guesses right and figures that not many people will drop their service and that they can get enough extra revenue from selling the ad space to keep the costs from having to go up too quickly for their customers. If they guess wrong and lose too many customers they'll likely drop the practice, but then be back to looking at places to get revenue from instead (i.e., customer's wallets and purses).

Considering the company isn't profitable, I applaud them for doing the best they can to maximize revenue in the least obtrusive ways possible. If you don't like the ads, ignore them. It's not like you are being forced to see anything other than a link that suggests you can see more information and get more information by clicking on it.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

bdowell said:


> And how much more would those prices be increasing or increased to if there wasn't some additional revenue stream?


Not at all? Surely, if they raised their prices too high they'd either lose current customers or not be able to sign up new ones.



> At some point you decide that it's not worth paying *not* to get the ads, or you decide to just drop the service. Hopefully TiVo guesses right and figures that not many people will drop their service and that they can get enough extra revenue from selling the ad space to keep the costs from having to go up too quickly for their customers.


ie, they do it because they can.

I haven't been offered the opportunity to pay extra for no ads. Some have said they would indeed pay the extra money for a clean interface if that ever became an option.

I think you meant don't "click" the ads if you don't like them, as it is next to impossible to ignore something that HUGE in my Home screen and that pops up everytime after a programming.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

bdowell said:


> And how much more would those prices be increasing or increased to if there wasn't some additional revenue stream?





JaneiR36 said:


> Not at all? Surely, if they raised their prices too high they'd either lose current customers or not be able to sign up new ones.


That's an awfully optimistic view of things. They could have raised prices $1.00 per month per customer per box. Then you and others would be complaining about the increased costs, but then shrugging it off saying something along the lines of 'aw, well, what can you do? stuff just costs more'

Would that mythical dollar per month per box really have scared you off? Be honest. Probably not, no? Do you really want to test the waters and find out?

Seriously, if TiVo is pulling in enough revenue to save customers even $0.05 per month in subscription fees the relatively few complaints they get about pushing ads onto customer boxes is worth it just so they don't have to face the complaints about the fees.

Remember, to many people the fee for TiVo service is keeping them from getting the boxes to begin with. Those that already have the boxes see the value in the service and aren't likely to run away from the service *unless it gets too expensive* which is what the idea of selling the advertising space is supposed to help prevent.



JaneiR36 said:


> ie, they do it because they can.


True, they do it because they can, but you can't realistically be sitting on the other side of the net volunteering to pay extra, or are you? If you are, send TiVo a note and tell them how much you are ready to pay.

Not to get political here, but you make this sound like the pie-in-the-sky promises that are made in the names of some of the wealthier citizens in this country who we are told by those that would raise our taxes know that they aren't be taxed enough and want to be taxed more. But... as shown by the state of Virginia, and Mike Huckabee's home state, recent news reports showed just how well that 'pay extra in taxes if you want to' effort worked. It collected just a few thousand dollars since it was started some years back. Less than $10,000 over 5 years time.

For all the talk that those with money won't mind paying it, no one was getting cheques from those wealthier citizens. Those wealthier citizens were sitting on their money and keeping what they made. Why share it with the government who would just waste it anyway, right?

That's part of what faces TiVo here -- if they do away with the ads because people promise to pay more, how many are really going to pay more?

Heck, let me ask this -- without even looking, I'm guessing you aren't a TC Club member here, right? If you are, then apologies, but you might see where this is going quickly. TC Club members don't see ads, or don't see as many ads as non TC Club members. Yet not long back there was a long discussion about why some people aren't TC Club members (admittedly, I'm not a TC Club member myself, but you see the point hopefully. You have the ability to pay to support the TiVoCommunity.com forums and yet you don't. Why not? You lose the ads if you do, right? Is that not worth the fee for you??)



JaneiR36 said:


> I haven't been offered the opportunity to pay extra for no ads. Some have said they would indeed pay the extra money for a clean interface if that ever became an option.
> 
> I think you meant don't "click" the ads if you don't like them, as it is next to impossible to ignore something that HUGE in my Home screen and that pops up everytime after a programming.


Yes, I mean don't click the ad, and no it's not impossible. Just because the words are there doesn't mean you have to go any further at all. BFD that the words, colors, logo, graphics, banner are there. You still aren't seeing any video and don't see the details of the ads without going further.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

The ads are part of the price we pay. In fact if TiVo was up front about it they would put a statement in their price list that their product prominently displays advertising on its menu screens instead of burying a statement in their voluminous terms and conditions which few people read.

Why don't they? Because it would be perceived as a negative by potential consumers. 

Its simple economics. TiVo has no God-given right to make a profit and survive. If they offer people what they want at a price people are willing to pay, make them aware of their product, and keep their own costs under control then they might make a profit. If they don't, they won't. So far they haven't found a combination that works.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

bdowell said:


> That's an awfully optimistic view of things. They could have raised prices $1.00 per month per customer per box. Then you and others would be complaining about the increased costs, but then shrugging it off saying something along the lines of 'aw, well, what can you do? stuff just costs more'


Actually, as a new customer, I wouldn't even have noticed. Let's see, this product costs $13.99/mo. Buy it. Or don't buy it. Hey, I wish we could turn back the hands of time and have TiVo do just that 



> Remember, to many people the fee for TiVo service is keeping them from getting the boxes to begin with. Those that already have the boxes see the value in the service and aren't likely to run away from the service *unless it gets too expensive* which is what the idea of selling the advertising space is supposed to help prevent.


So it helps current customers while kinda ripping off new customers, because as RoyK explains, they're not really being up-front about these ads. In my case, I didn't see any of them until my trial period was over.



> True, they do it because they can, but you can't realistically be sitting on the other side of the net volunteering to pay extra, or are you? If you are, send TiVo a note and tell them how much you are ready to pay.


I agreed to purchase their service at the price they advetised. With the ads, I feel the quality of the service I was promised has been somewhat downgraded. It's up to TiVo to set their price and me to decide whether or not to buy it.



> Heck, let me ask this -- without even looking, I'm guessing you aren't a TC Club member here, right? If you are, then apologies, but you might see where this is going quickly. TC Club members don't see ads, or don't see as many ads as non TC Club members. Yet not long back there was a long discussion about why some people aren't TC Club members (admittedly, I'm not a TC Club member myself, but you see the point hopefully. You have the ability to pay to support the TiVoCommunity.com forums and yet you don't. Why not? You lose the ads if you do, right? Is that not worth the fee for you??)


Your question might as well be, "Why don't you contribute to the Red Cross," whereas I'd be more curious to know what (else) being a TC Club member gives me that I do not have already prior to signing up.



> Yes, I mean don't click the ad, and no it's not impossible. Just because the words are there doesn't mean you have to go any further at all. BFD that the words, colors, logo, graphics, banner are there. You still aren't seeing any video and don't see the details of the ads without going further.


You can choose not to click. But you'll see the logo. And frequently, too, whether you like it or not.


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## blam (Nov 15, 2007)

bdowell said:


> Service.
> 
> Cheaper service, cheaper hardware.
> 
> See above. If you'd rather pay higher prices for the service, or for the hardware (or both) feel free to keep complaining that TiVo has found a way to keep your costs down by getting advertisers to buy space on the boxes.


Cheaper Service?
First of all, there is no "TiVo Service". There is only downloading the TV Listing Data which should probably be free to begin with or of little to no cost.

Cheaper Hardware?
After what I paid for an HD TiVo box, I doubt it was made cheaper by ads. Plus, the box itself is just a simple computer, with free Linux and the TiVo software which as nice as it is designed, is really not that complicated. I'm amazed they cost as much as they do. So no, the hardware is getting cheaper because of the ads.

The only things the ads are doing is give more money to TiVo for nothing.

That is the problem. It is not that paying for something with ads is bad.

It is getting Ads and getting absolutely nothing in return.

TiVo customers get nothing for the ads.


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## blam (Nov 15, 2007)

RoyK said:


> The ads are part of the price we pay.


I already paid for the box. Done.

They said it would cost a monthly fee to get program data. Fine.

But now, all of the sudden I'm getting ads? How is that part of the price? I've already paid for everything. What am I paying for now?

I've already paid for everything the box does. Why am I paying more? Why is TiVo now selling my box, my menu, my harddrive to advertisers?

It is just a plain betrayal of their customers to put spam on my box.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

blam said:


> I already paid for the box. Done.
> 
> They said it would cost a monthly fee to get program data. Fine.
> 
> ...


Don't jump on me. I'm with you.

We paid for the box and now we're paying extra by having ads inflicted on us.
That's what I mean by part of the price we pay.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Oh I hate getting dragged in to these arguments, but I can't let comments like this go.



blam said:


> Cheaper Service?
> First of all, there is no "TiVo Service". There is only downloading the TV Listing Data which should probably be free to begin with or of little to no cost.


Why should it be free? Just cause you can go to a web page and look at the data for free (oh, by the way, there are ADs  on those web pages.). Think about how many different cable/sat and OTA stations there are (1000s). Now, figure that there are probably 30 programs per day for each of those stations. So the guide provider is keeping tracks of over 30,000 program listings each day. Add in all the data for each program (stars, description, title) and this is no small amount of data. It probably takes quite a crew at the Tribune (Tivo provider) to keep all the data current (do let it be wrong, BTW).



> Cheaper Hardware?
> After what I paid for an HD TiVo box, I doubt it was made cheaper by ads. Plus, the box itself is just a simple computer, with free Linux and the TiVo software which as nice as it is designed, is really not that complicated. I'm amazed they cost as much as they do. So no, the hardware is getting cheaper because of the ads.


It has been shown again and again that the hardware cost of a Tivo is (usually) higher than the retail price (the exception being the S3). Tivo subsidises the hardware with the subscription.

However the hardware is getting cheaper. I paid more for my original 80GB S2 than I did for my HD with dual tuners and 160GB HD. So the price is going down.



> The only things the ads are doing is give more money to TiVo for nothing.


Not for "nothing." It is earning revenue Tivo needs to survive.



> That is the problem. It is not that paying for something with ads is bad.
> 
> It is getting Ads and getting absolutely nothing in return.
> 
> TiVo customers get nothing for the ads.


You are getting something return: the Tivo service. If you don't find the cost of the service (initial investment + monthly fee + ads) to outweigh the value to you, then dump the Tivo and choose another option. There are other choices.


----------



## rodbac (Aug 16, 2005)

> You have the ability to pay to support the TiVoCommunity.com forums and yet you don't. Why not? You lose the ads if you do, right? Is that not worth the fee for you??


Not a good example- nobody paid TivoCommunity.com already for the right to view the forum.

I'm in the middle on this- the capitalist in me thinks Tivo can do whatever they want, and as soon as what they're doing bugs me (be it with ads or anything else), I'll dump them like a hot rock.

However, Tivo granting themselves the right to put advertisements in my home really leaves a foul taste in my mouth. I pay them a relatively high fee for the guide data, and I paid them a very high fee for a relatively simple piece of hardware- if I agreed to let them post ads in my house it's only because they slipped it in somewhere they knew I wouldn't notice it until later.

As it stands now, I'm ok with it, but they're treading a fine line (speaking for myself only). Maybe it's because the only ads I noticed are for things like Amazon, new shows, etc. As soon as an ad shows up for corn flakes, though, I may feel very differently.


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

james.92 said:


> Finally got to watch the "Bitter Sweets" episode of Pushing Daisies.
> 
> When it ended I was presented with 3 options:
> 
> ...


Pissed off? Wow, only Tivo haters would say this. Those ads will help Tivo to survive.

What is a Tivo hater? That is defined as a person who is pissed off that Tivo is suing Dish Network and winning because they know their FREE DVR from Dish or their cable company is in danger of disappearing.

All patent infringers will be punished. Turn in your patent infringing DVR and buy a Tivo.


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## blam (Nov 15, 2007)

RBlount said:


> You are getting something return: the Tivo service.


What TiVo service? There is no TiVo service. There is only downloading the program data. I already paid for that before ads. With ads, it is the same price so I'm not paying for it in ads.



RBlount said:


> (initial investment + monthly fee + ads)


See that is the problem. The cost of the TiVo was:

initial investment + monthly fee

Now it is:

initial investment + monthly fee + ads

And I haven't gotten anything in return for this change.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

blam said:


> What TiVo service? There is no TiVo service. There is only downloading the program data. I already paid for that before ads. With ads, it is the same price so I'm not paying for it in ads.


Maybe it's the same price BECAUSE of the ads.

Costs to operate have gone up over the years.

Do you get paid the same as you did 10 years ago?

So all TiVo does is download the data? All the scheduling, searchability, wishlist management, and other features just happen by themselves? For Free?


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## rodbac (Aug 16, 2005)

> Maybe it's the same price BECAUSE of the ads.
> 
> Costs to operate have gone up over the years.


Powerful argument (not that you're probably the first to mention it, but it's the first I've read someone state it succinctly).


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Langree said:


> So all TiVo does is download the data? All the scheduling, searchability, wishlist management, and other features just happen by themselves? For Free?


Didn't you know, if the data is on the Internet it MUST be free! Just like all the songs and movies I download from Bittorrent. Since I don't pay anything, it must be free. Right? I am sure all the people who work for Tribune Media are gladly volunteering their time an effort to collect this data for us.


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## blam (Nov 15, 2007)

Langree said:


> Maybe it's the same price BECAUSE of the ads.
> 
> Costs to operate have gone up over the years.
> 
> Do you get paid the same as you did 10 years ago?


Nah, that price is set because that is what they found people will pay. I can guarantee you the cost to deliver a database file to a box for TiVo has if anything dropped throughout the years.



Langree said:


> So all TiVo does is download the data? All the scheduling, searchability, wishlist management, and other features just happen by themselves? For Free?


Yes, the only thing the tivo service is downloading guide data.

No of course not. All those features where on the box when I bought it. I've already paid for them. That is what I bought. The menu ads are getting me nothing.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

blam said:


> No of course not. All those features where on the box when I bought it. I've already paid for them. That is what I bought. The menu ads are getting me nothing.


So you think your software hasn't changed since you purchased it? Bugs fixed, updates made? It all costs in man hours and equipment and is an ongoing cost.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

blam said:


> Nah, that price is set because that is what they found people will pay. I can guarantee you the cost to deliver a database file to a box for TiVo has if anything dropped throughout the years.


Know much about business or economics in general and how they work?


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Langree said:


> Maybe it's the same price BECAUSE of the ads.
> 
> Costs to operate have gone up over the years.
> 
> ...





RBlount said:


> Didn't you know, if the data is on the Internet it MUST be free! Just like all the songs and movies I download from Bittorrent. Since I don't pay anything, it must be free. Right? I am sure all the people who work for Tribune Media are gladly volunteering their time an effort to collect this data for us.


If the whiners here had been using 'free' DVRs such as MythTV and the like they'd be crying the blues about how they now have to pay for 'free' guide data after enjoying the free ride for so long compliments of Zap2It.com

Unfortunately for the MythTV crowd the burden of providing all of that free data got to be too much for Zap2It and others to deal with so they took the data away and basically broke all of the 'free' Linux DVR solutions over night (though there was a fair warning and notice given to the community). Now the answer is to pay a relatively minor fee to get the guide data. A fee that is divided up amongst as many customers as possible to keep the prices as low as possible, but... that fee could increase slowly but surely also as the people that provide the data are entitled to charge whatever fee they decide they can get for the data which is *copyrighted* and may not be distributed without getting authorization, compensating for rights, etc.

As I tried to say, and others have tried to say too, the costs of operating TiVo as a business continue to rise, the costs of providing the service continue to rise, and someone has to pay somehow. The cheap bastages that show up in places like this complaining about being force fed ads say they'd pay but most would probably be here posting notes saying they are dropping the service and going with the cable co's DVRs instead if the prices went up much more. After all the cable co's competiting boxes are 'free' and don't come with ad's (except for whatever crap the cable company shoves down the pipeline, into your guide, etc.)


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Langree said:


> So you think your software hasn't changed since you purchased it? Bugs fixed, updates made? It all costs in man hours and equipment and is an ongoing cost.


Bugs fixed? Not in the last six months.
I wish they would get the thing running again as well as it did when I bought it and leave it alone! I want to record and watch TV with it, not surf the internet, play music or look at pictures. My PC does those things and far better.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

blam said:


> See that is the problem. The cost of the TiVo was:
> 
> initial investment + monthly fee
> 
> ...


Please explain how "ads" = "cost"
By definition, a "cost" is "a sacrifice, loss, or penalty".
Does the existence of ads on your TiVo cause you to sacrifice _anything_?
Does the existence of ads on your TiVo cause you to lose _anything_?
Do you incur any penalty of any kind becuse of the existence of ads on your TiVo?

The answer to all of the above questions is an unequivocal "NO!" The TiVo ads don't displace anything you would otherwise have and impose no additional burden on you.

Whine all you want, but from any rational perspective, you're simply incorrect in your assumption that ads impose any "cost" on you.


----------



## rodbac (Aug 16, 2005)

> I wish they would get the thing running again as well as it did when I bought it and leave it alone! I want to record and watch TV with it, not surf the internet, play music or look at pictures.


I bet most people feel this way, and I've often wondered why Tivo feels compelled to constantly add things to a working release of their OS.

They could have different versions with different costs, and charge for upgrades (not bugfixes, of course).

Yeah, that wouldn't make everyone happy, but that's only because of momentum. Generally, that's how software works. Adobe isn't giving me new versions of Photoshop every few months.

IMO, it's yet another thing that Tivo just doesn't seem to do right, or at least the same way as profitable companies (I'm not positive I'd like it better one way or the other).


----------



## rodbac (Aug 16, 2005)

> Whine all you want, but from any rational perspective, you're simply incorrect in your assumption that ads impose any "cost" on you.


So you wouldn't mind Sony putting a small Kellog's billboard on top of your new TV?


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

rodbac said:


> So you wouldn't mind Sony putting a small Kellog's billboard on top of your new TV?


Bad analogy, the ads aren't there when watching content on the TiVo, they only appear in menus and you are not forced to click on them to gain functionality.

In truth, I hardly notice them now.


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## rodbac (Aug 16, 2005)

> In truth, I hardly notice them now.


I don't, either- I don't want you to think I'm complaining too much about them.

You're right about the billboard. So how about if it only displayed a banner when the TV was warming up, or maybe only for a moment when you press buttons?

I realize the examples may be more or less intrusive than the banners in Tivo, but the point is the same. Either you don't accept the idea that advertising can be injected into your home or you do, or at least you do as long as it doesn't exceed a certain level (which probably includes me).


----------



## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

rodbac said:


> I don't, either- I don't want you to think I'm complaining too much about them.
> 
> You're right about the billboard. So how about if it only displayed a banner when the TV was warming up, or maybe only for a moment when you press buttons?
> 
> I realize the examples may be more or less intrusive than the banners in Tivo, but the point is the same. Either you don't accept the idea that advertising can be injected into your home or you do, or at least you do as long as it doesn't exceed a certain level (which probably includes me).


If it keeps my cost of entry (initial purchase price) or continued cost of ownership (monthly subscription/service fees) down, then I'm willing to sell out in just the same way Wayne and Garth did (see Wayne's world movies), or the way Ricky Bobby did (see Talladega Nights movie), etc.

I want lower costs. If Sony gives me a much better TV than I can afford because their logo is shown on it whenever I turn it on, or it's shining brightly on some logo that is attached to it, I don't care. Unless it is enough to overwhelm my ability to watch TV I'll ignore the logos and go right on watching my TV.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

I agree with ya RobertJ... when I bought my Series 2, I first examine hard the pamphlet for it.. on every family enjoying Tivo photo, no ads. Imagine my surprise when I brought it home and low and behold.. GET NAILED! appeared on the main screen.

Wouldn't it have been better to offer normal service at a higher cost, and a reduced cost based on accepting ad content?


P.s. Get your ROCKS OFF! Buy rocks at my website. Hurry.. buy them now

buy them

buy them

buy them

Get your ROCKS OFF NOW!

P.s.s. What? Ya ain't doing nothing but scrolling through a message.. the same action you would be doing had I typed something you wanted.. instead of an ad. Just be glad your reading this instead of a 5 year old.


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## blam (Nov 15, 2007)

Langree said:


> So you think your software hasn't changed since you purchased it? Bugs fixed, updates made? It all costs in man hours and equipment and is an ongoing cost.


Bug fixes - these were fixes to a faulty product. I shouldn't pay for them.

Update - i never asked for all these new features. If they want to give them to me fine. But let me decide if I want them if the cost is a menu cluttered with ads. I'd rather not have more bells and whistles to a box that works fine the way it is and have a menu system clean of spam ads.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

rodbac said:


> I bet most people feel this way, and I've often wondered why Tivo feels compelled to constantly add things to a working release of their OS.


Because they are trying to compete with the HIGHLY subsidized Cable DVRs. Tivo feels (rightly or wrongly) that as long a people consider Tivo "just a DVR" they are more likely to go with Cable DVR with no upfront cost.



> They could have different versions with different costs, and charge for upgrades (not bugfixes, of course).
> 
> Yeah, that wouldn't make everyone happy, but that's only because of momentum. Generally, that's how software works. Adobe isn't giving me new versions of Photoshop every few months.
> 
> IMO, it's yet another thing that Tivo just doesn't seem to do right, or at least the same way as profitable companies (I'm not positive I'd like it better one way or the other).


But they have tried to sell optional features. When it first came it out, HMO (Home Media Option) was an optional feature. I don't have the facts on whether it was a successful seller or not, Tivo chose to roll all features in to one software base.

The other thing to consider is that the average user does not think of Tivo like a computer, it considers it an appliance similar to a TV or Telephone. They don't want to have to make a choice, do I want photos or not, what about TTG? They want to pay one fee plus the monthly fee and have it work.


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## blam (Nov 15, 2007)

AJRitz said:


> Please explain how "ads" = "cost"
> By definition, a "cost" is "a sacrifice, loss, or penalty".
> Does the existence of ads on your TiVo cause you to sacrifice _anything_?
> Does the existence of ads on your TiVo cause you to lose _anything_?
> ...


The answer to your questions is not an unequivocal NO.

>Does the existence of ads on your TiVo cause you to sacrifice _anything_?

Yes of course. I'm sacrificing peace of mind by getting assaulted with ads trying to get me to buy stuff. I'm sacfricing my privacy because now TiVo is selling my data to these other companies. I'm sacrificing the time it takes to glance at the ads, which is unavoidable now that is bigger. There is a cost to these ads.

>Does the existence of ads on your TiVo cause you to lose _anything_?

Yes, of course. I'm losing peace of mind, time and privacy.

>Do you incur any penalty of any kind becuse of the existence of ads on your TiVo?

Totally. Instead of a nice experience everytime I turn on my TiVo, I'm getting assaulted with ads trying to get me to buy something.

If getting me to buy something wasn't valuable, then TiVo wouldn't be making money off of me.


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## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

Personally, give me an option to zap forever, any and all ads, for a few bucks more and I'll pay up if Tivo promisees in writing to never again inflict us/me with any of the newfangled advertisements.

Thank You


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

qz3fwd said:


> Personally, give me an option to zap forever, any and all ads,


Personally, give me the option of zapping forever this thread and I will be eternally grateful!


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

blam said:


> The answer to your questions is not an unequivocal NO.
> 
> >Does the existence of ads on your TiVo cause you to sacrifice _anything_?
> 
> Yes of course. I'm sacrificing peace of mind by getting assaulted with ads trying to get me to buy stuff. *I'm sacfricing my privacy because now TiVo is selling my data to these other companies.*


You have proof of that?

We are all seeing the same ads, there is no proof that tivo is selling any of our specific info, beyond "300 accounts clicked to see this ad, 200 this one and so on.

As for your piece of mind, if a line item causes you such duress I hope you don't drive because billboards and other signage could cause you to have an accident.


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## MANOWAR© (Mar 6, 2005)

The ads are a minor annoyance at the most people. If TiVo has to do this to keep the cost down then good for them. If you REALLY hate the ads, write down the companies in the ads and then email/call them and tell them you won't use their product/service since they are messing up your TiVo experience. If enough people do it they may pull their advertising. If they start interrupting your shows with TiVo ads then you can complain.


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## rodbac (Aug 16, 2005)

ah30k said:


> Personally, give me the option of zapping forever this thread and I will be eternally grateful!


You understand that clicking the title of the thread is the only thing that will display it on your computer screen, right?


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

rodbac said:


> You understand that clicking the title of the thread is the only thing that will display it on your computer screen, right?


Kinda like seeing the content of those pesky ads.


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## rodbac (Aug 16, 2005)

Langree said:


> Kinda like seeing the content of those pesky ads.


Huh? I can't choose not to see the ads... well, short of getting rid of my Tivos, which I won't be doing soon (yet)...


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

rodbac said:


> Huh? I can't choose not to see the ads... well, short of getting rid of my Tivos, which I won't be doing soon (yet)...


Exactly. Also, some people also prefer to think that keeping the product is an atypical reaction to feeling ripped off. How many times did you* drop a product you purchased off a cliff because the seller slipped in a $20 charge when you "weren't looking"? You'd probably just say something when a friend wants to buy the same product, ***** and moan among anyone who'll subject themselves to your "whining" or never recommend the product / seller at all.

*Not "you," rodbac, but the generic, everyone, "you" 



AJRitz said:


> Please explain how "ads" = "cost"
> By definition, a "cost" is "a sacrifice, loss, or penalty".
> Does the existence of ads on your TiVo cause you to sacrifice _anything_?
> Does the existence of ads on your TiVo *cause you to lose anything?*


My lunch?  It's also a little irritating so see how quickly the Keep or Delete screen pops up when there's no ad at the end of a program vs. when there is.



Langree said:


> Do you get paid the same as you did 10 years ago?


This seems like an excellent argument for increasing the overall price of the product by $0.XX rather than including ads in the package? Once again, screws over existing customers, but new customers would know exactly how much they're paying for what. Alternatively, I would prefer it if they were just a little bit more up-front about the ads.

I also like the continuous talk about keeping prices low -- didn't MSD rates just go up recently?


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## rodbac (Aug 16, 2005)

> It's also a little irritating so see how quickly the Keep or Delete screen pops up when there's no ad at the end of a program vs. when there is.


Oh HELL no. Please tell me this is just selective observation (you only notice the random delay when there's an ad there)!


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

rodbac said:


> Oh HELL no. Please tell me this is just selective observation (you only notice the random delay when there's an ad there)!


Are you kidding? It's instanteneous without the ad and hangs up for a few seconds when there's an ad to be displayed. On mine, anyway. I have an S2 with the 9.1 Software.


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## blam (Nov 15, 2007)

Langree said:


> We are all seeing the same ads, there is no proof that tivo is selling any of our specific info, beyond "300 accounts clicked to see this ad, 200 this one and so on.


You really think that is all they are giving back to advertisers? Part of the selling point of TiVo to advertisers is to match what you are watching (defining what sort of person you are) to what the advertisers are selling.



Langree said:


> As for your piece of mind, if a line item causes you such duress I hope you don't drive because billboards and other signage could cause you to have an accident.


Well, you can imagine that I also billboards should be illegal. Big huge signs that are designed to take your eyes off the road? You gotta be kidding me. I'm amazed they are legal.

By the way, I'm sure it is only a matter of time before the ads for tivo go from the bottom to the top. I figure it will be about year or so before this happens.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

blam said:


> You really think that is all they are giving back to advertisers? Part of the selling point of TiVo to advertisers is to match what you are watching (defining what sort of person you are) to what the advertisers are selling.


And your evidence for this is...what exactly? I mean, other than your assumptions. When has anyone ever showed that Tivo collects your personal viewing habits and sells it to advertisers, then allows the advertisers to target specific Tivo units with ads?

Have you noticed that everyone here tends to discuss the same ads being displayed on their Tivos? That might be a slight indicator that everyone is getting the same ads.



blam said:


> Well, you can imagine that I also billboards should be illegal. Big huge signs that are designed to take your eyes off the road? You gotta be kidding me. I'm amazed they are legal.


You probably also think that radios should be outlawed in cars (since they are also distracting). And phones. And food. And drinks. And kids. And other adults. And that the world's problems can be solved with just a few more laws and government programs.
__________________
My personal opinions are just that. Don't rely on anything I say - I could be Bill Gates' pool boy.


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## blam (Nov 15, 2007)

TexasAg said:


> And your evidence for this is...what exactly?


My direct experience with how the ad biz works. It is a totally slippery slope, and I'm so bummed to see TiVo on it...



TexasAg said:


> And that the world's problems can be solved with just a few more laws and government programs.


Oh, interesting, you must be one of those Anarchists. You must really really hate the new TiVo ads... 

Cheers.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

blam said:


> My direct experience with how the ad biz works.


So no, you have no evidence. You still haven't explained why we are all seeing the same ads.
__________________
My personal opinions are just that. Don't rely on anything I say - I could be Bill Gates' pool boy.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

rodbac said:


> Oh HELL no. Please tell me this is just selective observation (you only notice the random delay when there's an ad there)!


I agree with the others.. not only is there more of a delay, but it also interferes with my instantaneous "up, right" to delete the show. You have to wait until it draws all of the content or it misses events.


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## rodbac (Aug 16, 2005)

mattack said:


> I agree with the others.. not only is there more of a delay, but it also interferes with my instantaneous "up, right" to delete the show. You have to wait until it draws all of the content or it misses events.


I wasn't disagreeing- I was just implying I hadn't noticed it and was hoping it wasn't true lamenting the fact that I'd never be able to overlook it again...


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

Ads? What ads? I use the Tivo to watch my favorite shows. Ads on the interface I barely notice.


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## h00ligan (Nov 29, 2007)

well then i guess that's a failing proposition for the ad team and ultimately tivo...

i'll tell you this, if i see more ads pop up than now - i'm returning my tivos.. cuz really - I give tivo $20 a month and paid for 2 boxes - i did that to SKIP ads. 

I realize many people don't feel the same way - however some of us hate it. Tell you what tivo - figure out my portion of your monthly ad revenue - tell me what that is - and offer a choice to subscribe WITH ads or WITHOUT ads...Generally there are 2 kinds of subscriptions in the digital age.. ad supported or paid. You have both.... losing proposition for the consumer.


Coming soon to tivo.. adsense.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

HPD said:


> Ads? What ads? I use the Tivo to watch my favorite shows. Ads on the interface I barely notice.


There are none so blind as those who will not see.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

RoyK said:


> There are none so blind as those who will not see.


Ignorance is bliss?


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## GadgetGav (Dec 11, 2001)

How is the title of an ad that you have to click on to really see the ad, the same thing as an actual ad..?
That's like saying the TiVo suggestions are detracting from the TiVo experience, or the programs that my spouse records that I have no interest in watching. I don't get it.
As others have said on here, the day that TiVo *forces* me to watch any of these at the same time as charging me a monthly fee, then I'll get my blood pressure worked up about it. Until then, I can just laugh at the ad headlines like a Shell video about clean air...! (That one almost makes me want to click it to see the propaganda..!)


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

RoyK said:


> There are none so blind as those who will not see.


I think it of the case that some of us are better able to ignore the ads since they don't bother us.

I won't try and speak for you directly, but I am willing to bet that those who have expressed disdain for the ads has actually made themselves hypersensitive to them. Now, every time they go to the Tivo menu, they see the ads. Those of us who have been able to "filter" out the ads, rarely notice them any more.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

RBlount said:


> I think it of the case that some of us are better able to ignore the ads since they don't bother us.
> 
> I won't try and speak for you directly, but I am willing to bet that those who have expressed disdain for the ads has actually made themselves hypersensitive to them. Now, every time they go to the Tivo menu, they see the ads. Those of us who have been able to "filter" out the ads, rarely notice them any more.


I'd be willing to bet you notice when a new one shows up. And for those who claim that merely displaying a product or company name on a TiVo menu button isn't an ad but merely a link to an ad I remind you that those companies that pay to display their name in sports arenas, ice rinks, on race cars, etc certainly think that they are advertising and are paying big bucks for the privilege.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

RoyK said:


> I'd be willing to bet you notice when a new one shows up.


Sometimes, but not always. I couldn't tell you what was currently being advertised on my Tivo.

In fact, until people started complaining about the "Get NAILED" ad on the front page, I never even paid it any attention.



> And for those who claim that merely displaying a product or company name on a TiVo menu button isn't an ad but merely a link to an ad I remind you that those companies that pay to display their name in sports arenas, ice rinks, on race cars, etc certainly think that they are advertising and are paying big bucks for the privilege.


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm noticing the ads more, as they're unfortunately nibbling at the great interface of Tivo. They now appear in my Now Playing lists, at the bottom. The problem is that before I used the page down button to hop to the bottom of the list to select and play the oldest show. Now, doing that places me on the ad link, and I have to then arrow up, then play. This is a minor thing, but it's getting these various minor things right that sets Tivo apart -- and getting them wrong with ads or whatnot can undermine its greatness.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

blam said:


> You really think that is all they are giving back to advertisers? Part of the selling point of TiVo to advertisers is to match what you are watching (defining what sort of person you are) to what the advertisers are selling.


Why would TiVo have to hand over info about its customers to be able to accomplish that? If an advertiser wanted a to place a gold star menu item on the TiVos of Seinfeld fans in Chicago, TiVo could provide the advertiser with an estimate of the number of viewers that would target and a price. Even if the advertiser wanted an audit, the info need only be available to auditors and not the advertiser themselves.

What you're suggesting is not only a tremendous risk to TiVo, it's wholly unnecessary.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

What a stupid thread. I think I'm going to replace my Tivo anyway. I am sick and tired of having to press the FF button to skip the ads!!!!


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## carguy84 (Jun 8, 2006)

RBlount said:


> I think it of the case that some of us are better able to ignore the ads since they don't bother us.
> 
> I won't try and speak for you directly, but I am willing to bet that those who have expressed disdain for the ads has actually made themselves hypersensitive to them. Now, every time they go to the Tivo menu, they see the ads. Those of us who have been able to "filter" out the ads, rarely notice them any more.


OR, we're the people who can see the progression of the ads and worry not about them now, but what they'll be like in the NEAR future and are trying to protect our investment and our user experience.

Forward thinking, I know, what a crazy idea.


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## KanuK (Mar 18, 2008)

Is there a way to remove the SHELL ad? I tried to go through it hoping I would have the option to delete it. How long does an ad stay there?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

No, you can't remove any of them (without serious hacking).

It is NOT taking up any of "your" recording space. It is recorded on a different section reserved for these things.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

mattack said:


> No, you can't remove any of them (without serious hacking).
> 
> It is NOT taking up any of "your" recording space. It is recorded on a different section reserved for these things.


I'm pretty sure he was referring to getting the blasted thing off his screen.

As for the not taking up "your" recording space argument -- hogwash. That space could have been made available for recording. Instead TiVo chose to reserve it for ads making part of the equipment we paid for unavailable for our use.That is like the manufacturer boxing off part of the trunk of your car for their own purposes.

(Yes - I realize that that space on the hard drive is not part of the advertised capacity).


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## Frank Furter (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm in too - argue Tivo's side all you want, but I definitely felt the experience was lessened once they started putting ads in there. Yeah yeah yeah, don't click 'em, ignore 'em, whatever, fact is, for 6 years I've faithfully paid my subscription, and for 6 years I've enjoyed nothing but a TiVo interface. Now I have to stop and make sure the extra line isn't a new option, or a message, or something important. Maybe I'm slow.

Regardless, it's like a website that puts ads up that you have to click through. Often, there are premiums you can pay that give you an ad-free experience. I thought that's what I was enjoying with TiVo - I was paying to NOT see ads. I really don't mind the ads, just lower my bill. 

I do know, for the first time in these 6 years I'm finally considering Dish or DirecTV, even though I hate their DVR's. But really, anymore I know what I want to watch, and even the most rudimentary DVR offers some type of season pass. 

So TiVo, hope you think you're pretty slick with your ads, because it's just one more straw to break the camels back.

There. I feel better now.


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## DickK (Oct 11, 2004)

Frank -- I'm agreeing with your kind of thoughts more and more. At first it didn't bother me but it's getting more annoying all the time. Not a good sign when it bothers me more as time goes on and not less. It really spoils what has always been (to me) TiVo's most powerful appeal: the clean, simple and uncluttered interface. Now there's just more junk there. I have no expectation that TiVo will care enough to do anything about it; and I may not do anything either but I'm starting to think I need to look at the cable company DVR and see just what the trade-off is. 
Dick


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## TiVoEvan74 (Sep 11, 2004)

Have you all send in your concerns directly to TiVo via its suggestion page?

They should hear en masse!


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

TiVoEvan74 said:


> Have you all send in your concerns directly to TiVo via its suggestion page?
> 
> They should hear en masse!


I called to complain.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoEvan74 said:


> Have you all send in your concerns directly to TiVo via its suggestion page?
> 
> They should hear en masse!


I think only lost subs will speak to TiVo. People complain about ads on TV all the time yet cable and DBS still seem to find subscribers. Complaints in themselves are probably not doing much whne the person still continues to use the product


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## Joey Bagadonuts (Mar 13, 2006)

What I don't understand is why we're not seeing any decrease in pricing. Those ads that we're now subjected to are obviously generating new revenue for TiVo - why isn't some of that being passed on to their customers?


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Joey Bagadonuts said:


> What I don't understand is why we're not seeing any decrease in pricing. Those ads that we're now subjected to are obviously generating new revenue for TiVo - why isn't some of that being passed on to their customers?


Have you ever known a company to lower it's fees?

What you are seeing is a recent increase that could have been higher and any added revenue now should stop us from seeing more frequent increases in the future.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Simply put, because they're still not making a profit.

Why would they cut fees so they can lose even more money?


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

Joey Bagadonuts said:


> What I don't understand is why we're not seeing any decrease in pricing. Those ads that we're now subjected to are obviously generating new revenue for TiVo - why isn't some of that being passed on to their customers?


Maybe it's so we don't see an _*increase*_ in prices


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

I'm going to start off to say that these ads did not bug me the least. But I spotted something I haven't seen before. Normal the add banner on the Delete Now Keep this recording prompt is from recordings the TiVo Box has made. 

What I saw today, is it is now placing them on videos transferred from TiVo Desktop. 

I downloaded some vidoes from walmart of the paramore sound check performance and transfered them over to the tivo box. Each one of thiese videos had a banner for Downloade More House, ore More South Park and so on from Amazon Unbox.

Just wondering If anyone else has seen this. I thought it was kind of funny to have amazon ads at the end of a walmart video clip, lol!


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## carguy84 (Jun 8, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> This fact is what defeats the slippery slope argument


In less than 1.5 years - the ads have become more intrusive. Still not a slippery slope??? Have they run out of slope? Time to revise your thinking?


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

carguy84 said:


> In less than 1.5 years - the ads have become more intrusive. Still not a slippery slope??? Have they run out of slope? Time to revise your thinking?


I still don't notice them.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

carguy84 said:


> In less than 1.5 years - the ads have become more intrusive. Still not a slippery slope??? Have they run out of slope? Time to revise your thinking?


nope. I still find them unobtrusive.
I do not record celebrity Apprentice so did not come across that billboard to see what is really up. I doubt we would see that on say American Idol though.


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## wedenton (Jun 13, 2002)

I've never been bothered by TiVo's ads before, but this is nothing less than old fashioned *In Your Face* pop-up advertising. Obviously, my opinion. I won't put up with it, and when something better comes along I will be gone.

I realize that 'something better' may take a while.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

wedenton said:


> I've never been bothered by TiVo's ads before, but this is nothing less than old fashioned *In Your Face* pop-up advertising. Obviously, my opinion. I won't put up with it, and when something better comes along I will be gone.
> 
> I realize that 'something better' may take a while.


What are you talking about? 

Pop-up ads require you to interact with it to close it and get it out of the way. Pop-under ads are the same way, only they are not in the way, but you still eventually have to close them. These Tivo ads require *NO* action on your part whatsoever, other than ignoring them if you choose, or actually looking at them.

If it bothers you so much that you won't put up with it, why are you waiting for something better to come along? Seems like a contradiction.

This attempt by Tivo to actually MAKE MONEY has turned this molehill mountainous. Get over it people.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> ....This attempt by Tivo to actually MAKE MONEY has turned this molehill mountainous. Get over it people.


+ me....what he said....


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

wedenton said:


> I won't put up with it, and when something better comes along I will be gone.
> 
> I realize that 'something better' may take a while.



Why bother saying that you *won't* put up with it, if you then continue to explain that you *will* put up with it?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

I don't like them, still, it annoys me that I now have to clear my status bar to clear a big banner when I pause a show.

But whatever, it's not like I'm going to cancel tivo over it...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm with Adam. I'm annoyed by some of the new ads, especially the ones at the bottom of groups, but not enough to jump ship.

However if the pop over ads like what was used on CA become common then that would push me over the edge and force me to start looking into alternatives.

The current ads are mostly unobtrusive, even if slightly annoying, but that thing on CA was a popup ad, plain and simple, and I will not put up with that. TiVo better be very careful what they do with this technology or I guarantee I'm not going to be the only loyal user jumping ship.

Dan


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Sorry if this has been mention before - just read first and last few posts. I have not seen the "Tivo" pop-up adds. But several networks seem to have no problem with running adds while the actual show is being broadcast - I believe CMT has reduced the size of videos to play Ask.com and other adds at the bottom of the video and I think SiFi does the same thing to promote their own shows. 

I guess the bottom line is we can expect they will find ways to assure we are watching their adds. 

Thanks,


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

I'm really surprised by the support for these ads. I'm against this on principle and in practice. Where does TiVo get the right to use my $800 S3 and my lifetime subscription as an advertising platform? When I bought it, I don't think that was part of the deal. (e.g. "User grants TiVo, Inc. the unlimited right to festoon the user screen with as many advertisements as TiVo, Inc. deems necessary.")

Suppose you bought a Chevrolet Corvette. Now suppose every time you started up the car, over the car radio an ad would urge you to go to Jiffy Lube for your next oil change. When you turned on the air conditioner, an ad would come over the radio exhorting you to use Mr. Goodwrench to have your A/C checked out. I own the car. What right does GM have to use my car and my time as their source of revenue without my permission?

Please don't bother pointing out the imperfections in this analogy. My point is that this wasn't part of the deal when we bought our TiVos. We weren't told our entertainment systems would be us turned into an involuntary advertising platform. TiVo's policies and lack of respect for its customers smacks of arrogance lately. If they cared about their customers, they'd at least give us the option to permanently opt out of the ads - to get our UI back to what we signed up for.


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## wedenton (Jun 13, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> Why bother saying that you *won't* put up with it, if you then continue to explain that you *will* put up with it?


I said it because it made me feel better to say it, and hoped my post would lead TiVo to understand that this is indeed a mountain, not a molehill, to an extremely loyal long term customer. Apparently I am not alone in that.

And there is no contradiction here. I said I will continue to use my TiVo boxes until something better comes along. After that, I won't.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

TiVo'Brien said:


> I'm really surprised by the support for these ads. I'm against this on principle and in practice. Where does TiVo get the right to use my $800 S3 and my lifetime subscription as an advertising platform? When I bought it, I don't think that was part of the deal. (e.g. "User grants TiVo, Inc. the unlimited right to festoon the user screen with as many advertisements as TiVo, Inc. deems necessary.")
> 
> Suppose you bought a Chevrolet Corvette. Now suppose every time you started up the car, over the car radio an ad would urge you to go to Jiffy Lube for your next oil change. When you turned on the air conditioner, an ad would come over the radio exhorting you to use Mr. Goodwrench to have your A/C checked out. I own the car. What right does GM have to use my car and my time as their source of revenue without my permission?
> 
> Please don't bother pointing out the imperfections in this analogy. My point is that this wasn't part of the deal when we bought our TiVos. We weren't told our entertainment systems would be us turned into an involuntary advertising platform. TiVo's policies and lack of respect for its customers smacks of arrogance lately. If they cared about their customers, they'd at least give us the option to permanently opt out of the ads - to get our UI back to what we signed up for.


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## wedenton (Jun 13, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> This attempt by Tivo to actually MAKE MONEY has turned this molehill mountainous. Get over it people.


I wonder how much money they are making by advertising lap bands. Is it enough to cover the losses caused by customer ill will?


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

Bierboy said:


>


Mmm, real mature.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

TiVo'Brien said:


> Mmm, real mature.


Why, thank you!

I thought it was better than wasting more keyboard energy blasting folks for whining (see my sig).


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

wedenton said:


> I wonder how much money they are making by advertising lap bands. Is it enough to cover the losses caused by customer ill will?


This is a GREAT question. Could they possibly get more than a few dollars per machine? I'd be willing to bid against the advertisers for the right to "opt out". Sure, it might cost me $20 a year more, but still....


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## mindchaotica (Oct 8, 2008)

You know the ads are rather unintrusive, and every Entertainment based company uses ads to generate money. look at the bright side if TiVo makes more money from Ads then from monthly service fees, maybe, just maybe the monthly fee might disappear over time.


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## Ruger (May 25, 2005)

I kind of thought the reason I paid for a service was to eliminate the need to use an add-based service. Like many websites and services, they're add-based. You can forgoe advertisements on websites by paying a subscription fee. With Tivo, you pay a sub fee and you still get the adds.

When can we expect a pop-up blocker plugin for Tivo?  The latest blasting of adds has really gotten annoying. I will definatly not be buying any more Tivo devices. My voice will be heard - by not giving them money, and by me no longer telling people to give Tivo their money. They've lost my support and have lost all future business. It was great while it lasted.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

TiVo'Brien said:


> I'm really surprised by the support for these ads. I'm against this on principle and in practice. Where does TiVo get the right to use my $800 S3 and my lifetime subscription as an advertising platform? When I bought it, I don't think that was part of the deal. (e.g. "User grants TiVo, Inc. the unlimited right to festoon the user screen with as many advertisements as TiVo, Inc. deems necessary.")
> 
> Suppose you bought a Chevrolet Corvette. Now suppose every time you started up the car, over the car radio an ad would urge you to go to Jiffy Lube for your next oil change. When you turned on the air conditioner, an ad would come over the radio exhorting you to use Mr. Goodwrench to have your A/C checked out. I own the car. What right does GM have to use my car and my time as their source of revenue without my permission?
> 
> Please don't bother pointing out the imperfections in this analogy. My point is that this wasn't part of the deal when we bought our TiVos. We weren't told our entertainment systems would be us turned into an involuntary advertising platform. TiVo's policies and lack of respect for its customers smacks of arrogance lately. If they cared about their customers, they'd at least give us the option to permanently opt out of the ads - to get our UI back to what we signed up for.





Ruger said:


> I kind of thought the reason I paid for a service was to eliminate the need to use an add-based service. Like many websites and services, they're add-based. You can forgoe advertisements on websites by paying a subscription fee. With Tivo, you pay a sub fee and you still get the adds.
> 
> When can we expect a pop-up blocker plugin for Tivo?  The latest blasting of adds has really gotten annoying. I will definatly not be buying any more Tivo devices. My voice will be heard - by not giving them money, and by me no longer telling people to give Tivo their money. They've lost my support and have lost all future business. It was great while it lasted.


You both should read (or have read) the TiVo Terms of Service more carefully. You entered into a contract with TiVo that specifically spelled out their intentions to place advertising in the UI.

tivo.com/policy


> 3.2 Graphical Elements. From time to time, your TiVo DVR may cause graphics and/or text to be superimposed over commercial advertisements or present you with other advertising viewing options. For example, graphic "tags" may permit you to press the Thumbs Up button to (i) schedule a recording of an advertised program; (ii) view special video clips or other information about the advertised product or service; and/or (iii) perform some other action. Any such tags are placed on top of the commercial advertisements by TiVo or its licensees on behalf of the advertiser and not at the direction of any other party.





> 13. Advertising and Promotions. The TiVo service is advertiser supported. The hard disk drive of your TiVo DVR contains reserved space in addition to the advertised recording capacity. TiVo reserves the right to send content (including advertising and promotional material) to such reserved portions of your TiVo DVR's hard disk drive as part of the TiVo service. In order to send such content, you agree that TiVo may tune your TiVo DVR to a particular channel at a particular time.


I'm *not* suggesting that you ought to like the ads (I don't care for the billboard or "more about" varieties), but they really shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone who has signed up with TiVo. The company has made no secret of its intentions to market itself as an ad platform since before they had a physical product for sale. To the best of my knowledge the policy has always included advertising clauses (certainly at least as far back as when I signed up in 2004).

/edit: Actually the first clause says that they will place tags over "commercial advertisements", which, to me, would not include the Celebrity Apprentice billboard that appeared during the actual program content. One could probably make the case that TiVo violated their own TOS with that particular ad...expect them to update the policy soon.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

TiVo'Brien said:


> I'm really surprised by the support for these ads. I'm against this on principle and in practice. Where does TiVo get the right to use my $800 S3 and my lifetime subscription as an advertising platform? When I bought it, I don't think that was part of the deal.


Sorry, TiVo has always said that advertising will be a major part of the revenue they expect from us users. If you look at the early annual reports (for example, the first annual report in year 2000, they spend almost as much time talking about benefits to advertisers as they do benefits to consumers. Didn't you find it a bit peculiar that in the hundreds of millions of dollars that TiVo has spent on their advertising campaigns, never once (AFAIK) did they say that skipping ads is a reason you should buy a TiVo? Ads have always been part of their plans, and they've been very public about it.

IMO, the only reason TiVo has survived and is innovating, is because of the potential huge advertising pot of money once they become big enough. TiVo has completely relied on the patience of investors for the money to survive (selling off new stock), and it's been obvious for many years that they can't make enough money off of subscriptions. (To get a reasonable return, they'd have to increase monthly revenue from customers by 60-70%, without losing any customers!!!). They would have had to sink to maintenance mode years ago without those investors gambling that TiVo can start making real money off of advertising.

Why do you think Comcast, Cox, and others are trying out TiVo? You surely don't think it is because they want to offer their customers a better experience! They all have their eye on a share of that pot of advertising revenue.

I don't like the ads, but TiVo has always been up front that they would be coming. I don't see an alternative for TiVo's survival. They never promised us no ads.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

People -- Get -- Over -- It.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

So far, I am ok with what is in place. That being said, does anyone know if there is a wa to default "the extras" when pausing to "hidden"?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

gonzotek said:


> You both should read (or have read) the TiVo Terms of Service more carefully. You entered into a contract with TiVo that specifically spelled out their intentions to place advertising in the UI.


Nobody ever reads that crap....


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

Since this is going to be a losing battle, lets think worst case...

What NEW ads do we think might be coming next? Hit "Info" button, and before it shows the actors and plot summary, might it say "brought to you by lap bandXXXX" ??


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

blacknoi said:


> Since this is going to be a losing battle, lets think worst case...
> 
> What NEW ads do we think might be coming next? Hit "Info" button, and before it shows the actors and plot summary, might it say "brought to you by lap bandXXXX" ??


Heh. It was reported somewhere before that they were testing a feature where the Tivo forced a channel change after a couple of "idle" hours. I think the test channel was TBS.

Can you imagine the shock and horror of finding your TV set to TBS every morning and evening after work?


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

CrispyCritter said:


> Sorry, TiVo has always said that advertising will be a major part of the revenue they expect from us users. If you look at the early annual reports (for example, the first annual report in year 2000, they spend almost as much time talking about benefits to advertisers as they do benefits to consumers.


Sorry, this doesn't fly. Whatever TiVo told investors makes no difference to the paying customer. TOS does not specifically mention that pop-up ads will be added to UI. People who purchased TiVo with lifetime relied on TOS to make the decision and should have the right to demand what they paid for.
Just like with early S1, the TOS did not specify that lifetime was attached to the unit and TiVo had to grandfather all the S1's sold before the change in TOS for one time free lifetime transfer.


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## fred2 (Jan 20, 2006)

TiVo'Brien said:


> Mmm, real mature.


I figure he/she/it must be a stockholder and as fits the model - greedy and accepting of anything.

Maybe it's the analogy to coffins that makes the poster so, well, supportive.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I think TiVo is pushing the envelope with the pop-up ad that happened with Celebrity Apprentice but the rest of the stuff is tolerable.
I'm hoping that TiVo is at least working to make these 'targeted' ads. 
Getting the basics in now so they can tell advertisers "we can target your audience".
If the ad is something I might be interested in, I would be more willing to tolerate it.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Heh. It was reported somewhere before that they were testing a feature where the Tivo forced a channel change after a couple of "idle" hours. I think the test channel was TBS.
> 
> Can you imagine the shock and horror of finding your TV set to TBS every morning and evening after work?


I rarely know what channels my Tivos are tuned to. That's what they're for.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

samo said:


> People who purchased TiVo with lifetime relied on TOS to make the decision and should have the right to demand what they paid for.


Huh? really? I bet that at least 80% of all subscribers are clueless about what TOS is much less have a specific knowledge of the Tivo TOS.



> Just like with early S1, the TOS did not *clearly* specify that lifetime was attached to the unit and TiVo had *chose* to grandfather all the *lifetime subscriptions sold for* S1's sold before the change in TOS for one time free lifetime transfer.


FYP


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> People -- Get -- Over -- It.


No.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

scandia101 said:


> Huh? really? I bet that at least 80% of all subscribers are clueless about what TOS is much less have a specific knowledge of the Tivo TOS.


I think that number is closer to 95% or more. Most people do not read licensing agreements for the software, sales contracts and even some very important documents like Deed of Trust. That doesn't mean that terms of the agreement are not enforceable. And few who read it can and sometimes do go to court to exercise their rights. Indeed, TiVo was not forced to grandfather old S1's, but they *had* to do it because they didn't want go to court and settle like they did with defective modems. I'm sure that TiVo attorneys decided that it was much cheaper for Tivo to grandfather few thousand units and not to worry about potential problem in a future.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> People -- Get -- Over -- It.


Get over what? Would you be more specific?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> Sorry, this doesn't fly. Whatever TiVo told investors makes no difference to the paying customer. TOS does not specifically mention that pop-up ads will be added to UI. People who purchased TiVo with lifetime relied on TOS to make the decision and should have the right to demand what they paid for.


read post 300 again and notice how the TOS does indeed specify advertsing and billboards and thumbs ups. Advertising IS a part of the TiVo model and to say otherwise is silly, to say you did not know is to say you did not research the purchase.

A lawyer might be able to parse out that a billboard on top of content is not in TOS, but then he needs way more damage than just the one show and also he would need CA to say that was content versus just a big product placement that CA *wanted* the ad on top of.

Now sure if this continued on into say Lost or American Idol then the lawyers might get their briefs ready - still not sure what case they have if the shows themselves call it commercial advertising. heck AI runs an entire Ford ad as show content each week.


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Can you imagine the shock and horror of finding your TV set to TBS every morning and evening after work?


Easily. Because I have a season pass set up to record "Shawn the Sheep" from Disney HD I quite often find myself faced with other less desirable Disney programming whenever I turn on the TV. I've got into the habit of pushing the "TiVo" button at the same time as "Power On" to avoid this.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Get over what? Would you be more specific?


Ooops...sorry...since I've been labeled a greedy stockholder, I better not say.


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## skip-those-ads (Sep 30, 2006)

TiVo'Brien said:


> I'm really surprised by the support for these ads.


I'd say they are mostly stockholders who are ticked off they are in a poor performing stock and are using us Tivo users vicariously to vent their deep-seated frustration. And, of course, their inability to admit they were wrong in buying the stock, which their ego will not let them do. I pity them.


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## aztex999 (Jan 8, 2009)

TiVo'Brien said:


> I'm really surprised by the support for these ads


I think there's a disturbing trend growing in America - a trend to blame the victim. I don't understand the increase in so many people thinking, "If you're that easily fooled; you deserve to be scammed." It completely absolves the wrongdoer of any blame. It's like saying, "Of course your car was stolen - look where you parked it!"

The fact of the matter is this - 4 years ago I paid $199 for a TiVo, and I've been paying $12.95 every month since to use that TiVo. I don't like the idea of paying someone to force ads down my throat. Had I known back then that someday I would have to maneuver around Mercedes commercials every time I pause my TV or delete a show, I would have just rented a DVR from my cable provider and saved myself the cost of the hardware.

Of course, they're even bigger liars. Remember back when cable started, they promised us, "Since we'll be making our money from customers, there will be no more need for commercial advertisements during programs?"

Yeah, right.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

skip-those-ads said:


> I'd say they are mostly stockholders who are ticked off they are in a poor performing stock and are using us Tivo users vicariously to vent their deep-seated frustration. And, of course, their inability to admit they were wrong in buying the stock, which their ego will not let them do. I pity them.


Tivo is one of few stocks that I own that is in the black. Compared to some/most of the market, I think Tivo fared quite well in the past few months! http://www.google.com/finance?q=tivo+cmcsa+dish+dtv. If you zoom to 1yr, you'll see it's been relatively stable, with DirectTV doing slightly better.

Your ignorance is showing.


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## skip-those-ads (Sep 30, 2006)

+1


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## skip-those-ads (Sep 30, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> This attempt by Tivo to actually MAKE MONEY has turned this molehill mountainous. Get over it people.





orangeboy said:


> Tivo is one of few stocks that I own that is in the black. Compared to some/most of the market, I think Tivo fared quite well in the past few months! http://www.google.com/finance?q=tivo+cmcsa+dish+dtv. If you zoom to 1yr, you'll see it's been relatively stable, with DirectTV doing slightly better.
> 
> Your ignorance is showing.


Cherry picking on the time frame? Nice, real nice. Well, at least we flushed you out as a stockholder and will now discount all of your opinions as being sadly biased. Have you heard the word "disclaimer"?


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Not a stockholder, they just don't bother me. They are pretty much invisible to me.


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

Langree said:


> Not a stockholder, they just don't bother me. They are pretty much invisible to me.


Same for me. It's not like TiVo is adding ads to content. This is much-a-do about nothing IMO.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Langree said:


> Not a stockholder, they just don't bother me. They are pretty much invisible to me.


OK...time for me to confess....I, too, am NOT a stockholder. And, no, they don't bother me. Of the time I spend using my TiVo, approximately .001% of it is spent on "pause".


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## tgmii (Feb 21, 2002)

I just think there needs to be a line drawn someplace... since it keeps moving forward.

When I bought my series 1, no ads, no talk of ads. 

Pointers to showcase ads are ok... and sometimes interesting/informative.

The pause ads are annoying in what they represent, more progress down the slippery slope.

I don't want to see tivo innovating like TBS/TNT does where you are focused on a program, and a 1/4 screen chacter walks across a table with a promo for another show.

I'd rather see them revenue share with Hulu or something, since I have zero problem with their advertising model.

If we keep heading this way, I'll expect to start seeing banner pictures between pictures I share to my tivo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

tgmii said:


> I don't want to see tivo innovating like TBS/TNT does where you are focused on a program, and a 1/4 screen chacter walks across a table with a promo for another show.
> 
> I'd rather see them revenue share with Hulu or something, since I have zero problem with their advertising model.


so 30 sec ads you can not FF or skip are Ok but pause ads or shows doing product placement that includes overlaying the screen are not OK. Is this a correct statement?

PS - I am fine with Hulu as well - free streaming content for looking at a 30 sec ad is ok - but surely the same slippery slope exists there as anywhere else.


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## Zugig (May 6, 2009)

I for one am annoyed at the pause ads and frankly, I don't care what's in the terms about TiVo's right to use them. And no, I don't plan to get over it. I have 3 Series 3s with lifetimes, all bought back when it was about $1100 each to do that. Did I read the terms before I bought the units? No, I didn't, because I wanted a DVR and there wasn't another one available that didn't come from a network provider. What difference would reading the terms have made: TiVo reserves the right to change the terms whenever they want anyway. All of that legalese crap isn't the point at all. I think customers deserve to be treated as such, and if a large number of people object to these ads, they should be made optional or removed. If they could be turned off via a setting, would all of you who claim not to be bothered leave them on? 
Most importantly, of all those who have posted here bemoaning the ads, how many of you have written TiVo and expressed your concern. That kind of communication might have an impact. Posting your thoughts here will not.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Zugig said:


> I for one am annoyed at the pause ads and frankly, I don't care what's in the terms about TiVo's right to use them. And no, I don't plan to get over it. I have 3 Series 3s with lifetimes, all bought back when it was about $1100 each to do that. Did I read the terms before I bought the units? No, I didn't, because I wanted a DVR and there wasn't another one available that didn't come from a network provider. What difference would reading the terms have made: TiVo reserves the right to change the terms whenever they want anyway. All of that legalese crap isn't the point at all. I think customers deserve to be treated as such, and if a large number of people object to these ads, they should be made optional or removed. If they could be turned off via a setting, would all of you who claim not to be bothered leave them on?
> Most importantly, of all those who have posted here bemoaning the ads, how many of you have written TiVo and expressed your concern. That kind of communication might have an impact. Posting your thoughts here will not.


Then why did you? ...nice first post....:down:


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Zugig said:


> If they could be turned off via a setting, would all of you who claim not to be bothered leave them on?


if they added even a dollar a month if you turned off adds I would leave them on.

if it made no difference in the bill I would probably leave them on one TiVo DVR for sure so I use them as desired - surprisingly to some - I would leave them on the DVR most used.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> if they added even a dollar a month if you turned off adds I would leave them on.
> 
> if it made no difference in the bill I would probably leave them on one TiVo DVR for sure so I use them as desired - surprisingly to some - I would leave them on the DVR most used.


I would shut the ads off, on all three of my S3 boxes, in a heartbeat.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I would shut the ads off, on all three of my S3 boxes, in a heartbeat.


Me too! I already pay a small fortune for cable, what's another $4 a month.

Dan


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## TiVoEvan74 (Sep 11, 2004)

I have a solution... all those who say/believe we should "get over it" should get more ads, more often, and taking up more room on their TVs, while those of us who are annoyed should have an option to turn off the advertising entirely! 

Many of us are looking at alternatives more and more seriously. I'm already doing some of that with exploring laptop to TV hookups and getting FREE classic shows streamed; but will look more closely at TV tuners, other DVD recorders, El Gato TV, etc. It'll be a matter of relative annoyances rather than Tivo as unalloyed good (or unquestionably top-ranked by a large margin).

I think Tivo should be concerned that the MORE they press this, & the MORE intrusive it becomes, the more likely they will be to lose customers. Many of us will be less likely to recommend Tivo, too, to friends and family. Regardless of TOS, many of us who decided to pay for lifetime will become increasingly irritated that we paid for something that is changing greatly--and will certainly not be upgrading our boxes-- and that's a lost revenue stream for them, too. 

Of course, what I still don't get in all of this is, who falls for advertising anyway?  How can it even be cost effective?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoEvan74 said:


> I have a solution... all those who say/believe we should "get over it" should get more ads, more often, and taking up more room on their TVs, while those of us who are annoyed should have an option to turn off the advertising entirely!


well the people ok with ads see that TiVo puts thought into making the ads unobtrusive while still being an ad which implies it needs to be readily seen.

the only thing that is in my way currently is the star ads in now playing lists that make me press my remote one time to move off it if I skip to end. I do not forsee this slope as overly slippery for the very reason you state - TiVo can only press so far before it costs them subscribers.

to me the idea of moving over to an laptop to stream and record TV due to ads is kind of like putting a family of 6 in a passenger car because you do not like the logo or detailing choices on the Vans.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

tgmii said:


> When I bought my series 1, no ads, no talk of ads.


You're wrong. TiVo has talked since day one about using advertising.



tgmii said:


> I'd rather see them revenue share with Hulu or something, since I have zero problem with their advertising model.


Wow. You would have no problem if TiVo inserted 4-5 unskippable 30 second ads into your recordings, but you DO have a problem with the current ads?


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

Tivo gets me alright.. gets me MAD!
And as of yesterday.. it looks like the ads have disappeared off my Tivo. Congrats, We won.. I think.

ZeoTivo,
As for the family in the car.. I imagine ALOT of families would choose the car if the van had a giant Stomach Band ad on the side.. YOU DO KNOW WHAT THE AVG AMERICAN LOOKS LIKE, right? LOL. A HTPC or MOXI will win if Tivo goes back to all it's ads.. believe me. Very few people like the abusive ads and would sacrifice some convenience just to have serenity when they sit down to watch TV.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

bschuler2007 said:


> Very few people like the abusive ads and would sacrifice some convenience just to have serenity when they sit down to watch TV.


But would they sacrifice $5 per month for every TiVo owned subscription (including all lifetime subs) to escape ads?

That's what it would take to get TiVo's Price/Earnings ratio up to that of an average stock. TiVo's been losing money for a long time now - the only reason they've been able to break even the last year is that they've given up hope expanding their standalone market (most of us!), and have cut back substantially on their marketing and promotions.

If you can prove to TiVo that they can raise all rates by more than 40% without losing any customers, you might be able to convince them to drop ads.

I don't like ads. But I dislike the idea of TiVo going into folding or going into maintenance mode even more.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> A HTPC or MOXI will win if Tivo goes back to all it's ads.. believe me. Very few people like the abusive ads and would sacrifice some convenience just to have serenity when they sit down to watch TV.


you do know of course that the majority of people watch TV without even a DVR and put up with all the abusive ads every 10 or 15 minutes when they sit down to watch TV. I do not think your statement is very accurate at all.

Also if TiVo thought they were *actually* loosing significant numbers of subscribers due to ads they would stop the ads as the ads would be self defeating.

I have an eye on Moxi hoping that there is indeed finally a competitor to TiVo but I am seeing Moxi have a very bumpy start so far.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how the ads are "abusive", let alone the "lap band around a family van" analogy.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

I got a moxi and I love it! In explaining to tivo why I was switching I received an email from a Jessica Loebig from tivo who says she is concerned with tivo customers concerns and wants to here from tivo customers about any problems they might be haveing! Everyone should let her know of their disdain for tivos changes. [email protected]


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## hunter69 (Feb 9, 2002)

I can not believe that this is still a discussion, and that it pops up every month or so.

As long as the adds do not prevent me from operations of my Tivo, let them be. The more $ that Tivo makes the better for all of us.

If you can not stand the adds, I think you should protest by no longer coming to this discussion board. That will show Tivo!!


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

Ok.. lemme just address some statements.

Abusive ads.. and TV's ads. You do know most people switch channels or get up during commercials to avoid them, right? How do I switch menus or walk away till the Tivo ad goes away? Cuz it's still there! SO it is much more abusive in the fact that I cannot avoid it. 

As for the extra charge per Tivo if ads were dropped. UMMM.. I guess I will pay for Tivo's bad business practices, but really, Tivo should just get better at doing their business. The price of no-ads for me, PRICELESS. 

If Tivo were smart.. they'd start competing with the other solutions instead of trying to find more ads to bail out a sinking ship. 

Anyway, I plan on dropping my Tivos as soon as my current contract runs out. I find I use Pytivo more than the DVR functions these days.. and the ads are just too annoying for me. Far better solutions are out now or are in the pipeline. A non-user tracking, ad serving, simple to use DVR...


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

You know, I timeshift 90% of my tv watching and never notice these ads, my 30 second skip still works, pause still works, and if I need or want to see a still screen I can clear the "more about" banners.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bschuler2007 said:


> Ok.. lemme just address some statements.
> 
> Abusive ads.. and TV's ads. You do know most people switch channels or get up during commercials to avoid them, right? How do I switch menus or walk away till the Tivo ad goes away? Cuz it's still there! SO it is much more abusive in the fact that I cannot avoid it.


You do know most people don't switch channels or get up during commercials to AVOID them, right? They (a minority, not "most") get up or switch channels because they feel they can use their time better than watching the commercials. They avoid wasting time, not avoiding the content of the commercials. Your principled stand against even SEEING ads is an anomaly, not the norm.

I have no idea how you can browse the web - even with ad blockers you still see ads. Not to mention driving down the road or reading a magazine.

Go ahead and explore other alternatives. There are plenty of network media players out there that don't have advertising, and if you don't need the DVR functionality much anymore it makes no sense to keep using TiVo if you hate the ads so much.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Langree said:


> You know, I timeshift 90% of my tv watching and never notice these ads, my 30 second skip still works, pause still works, and if I need or want to see a still screen I can clear the "more about" banners.


Yeah, I completely block out the ads mentally, which makes me wonder how effective they are. I had a friend over the other day and I was in the menu in TiVo and he says something about "The Girlfriend Experience", the new Steven Soderbergh movie. I didn't understand why, until he points to the screen and I see that there's an ad on TiVo Central for it. I had completely missed it - I literally do not see those things anymore.

So it does seem a little counter productive by TiVo with all these menu ads that either seem to piss people off or go completely unnoticed.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> How do I switch menus or walk away till the Tivo ad goes away? Cuz it's still there! SO it is much more abusive in the fact that I cannot avoid it.


my advice would be to stop staring at the menus and getting yourself upset. Instead do what you were going to do with the menu so you can get back to the reason we all have a DVR which is to actually watch an actual show.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Don't feed the troll.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

At one time in my life I had a phonograph, an eight track player, a cassette player , a cd player , a beta max player, a VHS player, an Atari, a nintendo, a nintendo 64, a commodore computer, a replay TV, and on and on it goes. 
Some day all of us and yes even you die hard tivo fans on this site will be able to say I used to have a tivo. Tivo is a software pioneer and a seller of guide data and now they want to be a content provider. The only problem is that they want to sell content that is commercials. That is the reason most people went with tivo in the first place to avoid those annoying ads. Tivo should stick with selling software and guide data and leave the content and commercials to the TV studios. I have purchased a moxi HD dvr and I am very satisfied with it at this time I also have a cox SA8300 dvr and a series 3 and a series 2 tivo. (I paid $800.00 for my series 3 and that's the same price for the Moxi.) I talked with tivo about why I was changing and was put in touch with a tivo rep who says she cares about customer feedback so all complaints should go to her Jessica [email protected].


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## ZaslnyKazachek (May 13, 2009)

Realy, if iam already here why to advertise it HERE?


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## ebockelman (Jul 12, 2001)

dgf123 said:


> That is the reason most people went with tivo in the first place to avoid those annoying ads.


I seriously doubt that. Most people buy DVRs to timeshift TV content. Fast forwarding or skipping though ads is just a bonus.


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## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

ebockelman said:


> I seriously doubt that. Most people buy DVRs to timeshift TV content. Fast forwarding or skipping though ads is just a bonus.


they're a package deal to me. since my first VCR in the mid-80's (what a huge klunker that was!) i've been happily FFing through ads, so it's difficult to separate the two. if i had to sit through all the ads like in the old days, i'd simply watch a lot less TV which wouldn't be altogether a bad thing!


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

Are all the people who ***** about ads on TiVo recovering ad-aholics or something!? Do they have so little will power that they are compelled to stare at the adds, stricken with fear, terrified that they are going to be forced to watch something they don't want to or to buy some as-seen-on-tv crap!?

Personally, the ads don't bother me one bit. I have no problem ignoring them. If they are blocking something I want to see on the screen, I clear them away with the 'clear' key. Ads have no adverse affect on the core TiVo functionality that drew me to the device in the first place. It would upset me a hell of a lot more if TiVo went out of business due to financial issues that could have been resolved through advertising revenue!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

TrueTurbo said:


> Are all the people who ***** about ads on TiVo recovering ad-aholics or something!? Do they have so little will power that they are compelled to stare at the adds, stricken with fear, terrified that they are going to be forced to watch something they don't want to or to buy some as-seen-on-tv crap!?
> 
> Personally, the ads don't bother me one bit. I have no problem ignoring them. If they are blocking something I want to see on the screen, I clear them away with the 'clear' key. Ads have no adverse affect on the core TiVo functionality that drew me to the device in the first place. It would upset me a hell of a lot more if TiVo went out of business due to financial issues that could have been resolved through advertising revenue!


What he said...


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

TrueTurbo said:


> Are all the people who ***** about ads on TiVo recovering ad-aholics or something!? Do they have so little will power that they are compelled to stare at the adds, stricken with fear, terrified that they are going to be forced to watch something they don't want to or to buy some as-seen-on-tv crap!?
> 
> Personally, the ads don't bother me one bit. I have no problem ignoring them. If they are blocking something I want to see on the screen, I clear them away with the 'clear' key. Ads have no adverse affect on the core TiVo functionality that drew me to the device in the first place. It would upset me a hell of a lot more if TiVo went out of business due to financial issues that could have been resolved through advertising revenue!


Couldn't have said it better. I NEVER notice the ads. And when I do, it's usually because of something cool in the showcases -- and I DO watch some of them cuz they usually have cool movie trailers.


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## scottvf (Jul 4, 2010)

hunter69 said:


> I can not believe that this is still a discussion, and that it pops up every month or so.
> 
> As long as the adds do not prevent me from operations of my Tivo, let them be. The more $ that Tivo makes the better for all of us.
> 
> If you can not stand the adds, I think you should protest by no longer coming to this discussion board. That will show Tivo!!


Why all the extra just goes to the CEO (He needs a couple of new private jets, don't you know?)


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

I've trained myself to ignore the ads best I can. When they pop up in a new and inconvenient place it takes a while to adapt. I've been with TiVo since the start but the experience hasn't gotten much better over time and in many ways has gotten worse. The ads are not something I want to have to "adjust to" or "skip over" or have to consciously ignore.

TiVo does not advertise all of the cool places they stick ads on the outside of the box. You find out about that after you get home. But you'd think the way some people here talk that it's a selling point... Strange. (Did you guys like to click Close on the pop-up and pop-under ads?)

When faced with the option I will either use an ad supported service or an ad free pay service. Whenever Ceton gets around to shipping their products TiVo is a goner. It will both save me money and get rid of the ads. It's been a long relationship with TiVo but they're getting kicked to the curb for not innovating in positive ways. Similarly, many households in my family follow my lead and they'll be TiVo-less soon as well.

I use the same features and functionality that have been in TiVo units soon after they shipped. There haven't been many usability improvements for me. Non-TiVo options are getting better and the world is passing TiVo by.

P.S.: How much wandering around the graveyard did you have to do before you dug up this dead thread?


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## sfvtivo (Feb 13, 2006)

Whole point of me getting Tivo was to avoid ads.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

TiVo still does accomplishes the original purpose for which I purchased it 10 years ago. It allows me to watch TV on my schedule and terms. If a few text popup ads show up in the interface or when I freeze the screen, I could care less. Nothing forces me to dwell on them. And if they help support the service, I'm all for it. 

When someone comes out with a product that is as convenient to use, is as user friendly as TiVo, as reliable, etc, I'll consider switching. And yes I know it's not perfect, but as far as computer based consumer products, I haven't seen one closer to perfection. Please show me any other computer based product that can be used as easily by a 4 year old child, a 72 year old technology challenged grandmother, and everyone between.


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

sfvtivo said:


> Whole point of me getting Tivo was to avoid ads.


You had to bump a 3 year old thread to dig up this dead horse?


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

Heh, noobs either get blasted for posting without using the search feature and starting a new thread... Or in this case blasted for searching and re-using an old thread. Seems like a no win situation.

Just because many people are bored with the complaints about ads doesn't make the topic any less relevant today. I think it's interesting that after reading my own post above how much happier I am without TiVo. Media Center is doing everything I want it to. No ads, four tuners, streaming to other rooms, 12TB of storage, centralized recording management and $25 less per month. These are all features that TiVo doesn't have.

I watch this forum hoping that TiVo will introduce something compelling or change its ways. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the way things are going.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

sfvtivo said:


> Whole point of me getting Tivo was to avoid ads.


Your reasoning was faulty.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

JTYoung1 said:


> You had to bump a 3 year old thread to dig up this dead horse?


Well, the the ads are more prolific than ever so the horse is a long way from dead.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

You would also think with RCN, etc.. rolling out Tivos at like $20 a month for everything, we people who purchased Tivos $200+ and are paying $15 just for the service would have less ads then the RCN boxes. But that is not the case at all and seems infact to be the opposite. I don't get it.. but truth is, I don't get alot of things, like advertising in general.

I still don't get how keying cars with the words, PEPSI, would get someone to buy your soda.. but, ok. So you piss off and annoy Tivo users.. we will then buy your products? What a strange world we live in.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

sfvtivo said:


> Whole point of me getting Tivo was to avoid ads.





JTYoung1 said:


> You had to bump a 3 year old thread to dig up this dead horse?


And he has 5 posts in 4 1/2 years.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

astrohip said:


> And he has 5 posts in 4 1/2 years.


Too busy watching shows on his TiVo to post much here.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

The Tivo ads don't detain me from using the Tivo. They are kind of like billboards. Tivo allows me to skip over commercials which interrupt the show and detain me.


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## deathriderz (Sep 7, 2010)

I'd rather have a menu link ad than have to pay a higher subscription fee... As someone else said, as long as it doesn't make me see it, or pop up while you're watching a movie, I'm happy


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

deathriderz said:


> I'd rather have a menu link ad than have to pay a higher subscription fee


But we're not actually given that choice. It's take the ads, or get no service at all.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

I couldn't tell you what any of the ads on my Tivo are for. They are so innocuous that their presence doesn't even register.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> Your reasoning was faulty.


I dispute that. He is free to buy the device for whatever reason he likes. Whether it serves that purpose well or not is another matter. Many people buy over-sized, outrageously expensive cars not so they can transport themselves from place to place, but rather so important and successful people will think they, too, are important and successful. That the action has precisely the opposite effect is rather beside the point.

In this particular case, however, he was more nearly correct. The TiVo does allow one to minimize - if not eliminate altogether - the impact of commercials. A better way is to simply avoid any programming that has commercials in it. That's what I do.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> I couldn't tell you what any of the ads on my Tivo are for. They are so innocuous that their presence doesn't even register.


Well, I couldn't tell you what the vast majority of ads are for in newspapers, magazines, radio, or on advertising supported TV, and they are far from innocuous. I do agree that as commercials go, however, the TiVo commercials are currently not very intrusive, relatively speaking.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

JTYoung1 said:


> You had to bump a 3 year old thread to dig up this dead horse?


If he is still pissed off, why not? The situation has not gotten any better, and the main reason the world is in such a mess is that instead of continuing to fight against inequities, injustices, and plain old bad ideas the people doing the fighting just give up, and then the populace in general gets acclimated to the evil. Before long, the average person thinks it is the way it should be, or often must be. Ads are a perfect example.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> I dispute that. He is free to buy the device for whatever reason he likes. Whether it serves that purpose well or not is another matter.  Many people buy over-sized, outrageously expensive cars not so they can transport themselves from place to place, but rather so important and successful people will think they, too, are important and successful. That the action has precisely the opposite effect is rather beside the point.
> 
> In this particular case, however, he was more nearly correct. The TiVo does allow one to minimize - if not eliminate altogether - the impact of commercials. A better way is to simply avoid any programming that has commercials in it. That's what I do.


I agree, he can buy it for what ever reason he wants. That doesn't by default make his reasoning reasonable. Buying something for a reason that doesn't actually exist, is done through faulty reasoning. Tivo has never claimed to be ad free and has never actually been ad free, so buying a Tivo to avoid ads is, well, done through faulty reasoning.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> Well, I couldn't tell you what the vast majority of ads are for in newspapers, magazines, radio, or on advertising supported TV, and they are far from innocuous. I do agree that as commercials go, however, the TiVo commercials are currently not very intrusive, relatively speaking.


There are ads in newspapers too? I'll have to remember to try to notice them next time I read one.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

scandia101 said:


> and [Tivo] has never actually been ad free.


It was ad free in 2006 when I got my first S2, unless you count the TV Guide bug in the guide as an ad.
I guess you could argue that Showcases were ads, but back then, they were mostly about upcoming TV shows, which were relevant to what Tivo was about...recording TV shows.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

JEFFERY CRUZ said:


> There was a previous thread about a free premiere and $19.95/mo for 24 months? Not sure the higher monthly fees are going to grab new customers even with the reduced price on the hardware. That $240 a year in sub fees is a big gotcha.


First off, welcome to TCF!
But really, posting the same message multiple times in unrelated threads:

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8235977#post8235977
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8235975#post8235975
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8235974#post8235974
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8235973#post8235973
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8235972#post8235972

is against the forum rules. It's great that you want to contribute to the discussions, but try to remain on topic, and contribute something relevant.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

Yeah Tivo was certainly ad free when I got my first one. I enjoyed about a year of ad free use. My main original complaint with the ads was all the Tivo literature out at the stores had screenshots, and not one of them had an ad shown. Kinda deceptive if you ask me.

I don't know if they changed the print ads or not to show real screenshots, but online I see alot of screenshots without ads.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

steve614 said:


> It was ad free in 2006 when I got my first S2, unless you count the TV Guide bug in the guide as an ad.
> I guess you could argue that Showcases were ads, but back then, they were mostly about upcoming TV shows, which were relevant to what Tivo was about...recording TV shows.


Advertising isn't advertising?

Beyond that, sftvo said that his whole point in getting a Tivo was to avoid ads and I guarantee you he meant avoiding commercials because that statement makes no sense regarding any of the ads on Tivo screens or placed into a program by Tivo.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> ...the main reason the world is in such a mess is that instead of continuing to fight against inequities, injustices, and plain old bad ideas the people doing the fighting just give up, and then the populace in general gets acclimated to the evil. Before long, the average person thinks it is the way it should be, or often must be. Ads are a perfect example.


Wow...you're comparing ads on a teevee box to the world being in a mess with inequities, injustices, etc.? ....and a "perfect example" of such an injustice?....talk about screwed up priorities....


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> Wow...you're comparing ads on a teevee box to the world being in a mess with inequities, injustices, etc.? ....and a "perfect example" of such an injustice?....talk about screwed up priorities....


It is the founding principals of our Democracy.. oh wait


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Wow...you're comparing ads on a teevee box to the world being in a mess with inequities, injustices, etc.? ....and a "perfect example" of such an injustice?....talk about screwed up priorities....


Not at all. First of all, I did not assign any relative importance to any particular problem. The root of many problems is based upon the same failure - people at first have an issue with something - how important is not the real question - and fight it for a while, but then grow tired and just give up fighting it. The attitude that it is "old news" is very much part and parcel of the fundamental issue. Mountains of evil are not made of a handful of giant inequities, BTW. They are made of trillions and trillions of tiny little inequities piled on one another for years and years.

Secondly, more than $1 Trillion a year is extorted from U.S. consumers without their permission ( mostly without them even realizing it ) through advertising. A small fraction of that amount could definitely end all traces of hunger worldwide, completely eliminate safety issues in automobiles and other transportation, significantly reduce pollution, and provide safe and effective means of supplying our energy needs for the next generation, at the very least. It might even be able to find a means to cure or prevent cancer. On the other side of the coin, we have Gray's Anatomy and Survivor, plus an economy that is on the very verge of total collapse. 'And you say *my* priorities are screwed up??


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> *Secondly, more than $1 Trillion a year is extorted from U.S. consumers without their permission* ( mostly without them even realizing it ) through advertising. A small fraction of that amount could definitely end all traces of hunger worldwide, completely eliminate safety issues in automobiles and other transportation, significantly reduce pollution, and provide safe and effective means of supplying our energy needs for the next generation, at the very least. It might even be able to find a means to cure or prevent cancer. On the other side of the coin, we have Gray's Anatomy and Survivor, plus an economy that is on the very verge of total collapse. 'And you say *my* priorities are screwed up??


At first glance, I thought you were going to talk about taxes even though I knew that figure was way to low. So you are proposing the advertisers stop secretly extorting the public - and the government just take (extort) all that money spent on advertising and fix things? I think even Steve jobs with Apple would be against that approach.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

daveak said:


> At first glance, I thought you were going to talk about taxes even though I knew that figure was way to low. So you are proposing the advertisers stop secretly extorting the public - and the government just take (extort) all that money spent on advertising and fix things? I think even Steve jobs with Apple would be against that approach.


No, I'm not suggesting the money be given to the government. It would be nice if it actually got used to do something useful, after all. The points are:

1. It's not a small problem. It is but a small manifestation of a giant problem. We Americans (and others, I suppose) have a habit of seeing blood and going for a band-aid, rather than realizing there are millions of gallons of blood, and that the answer is to figure out how to keep everyone from being cut in the first place, not trying to attend to a single small wound.

2. The millions of gallons of blood aren't going to disappear by themselves, nor will they do so overnight. It requires everyone to wake up and notice all the cuts. It also requires that everyone continue to staunch the flow of blood, not just get used to the fact we are all being lacerated.

3. Fundamental problemns require fundamental understanding and fundamental changes both in attitude and in processes. Whining about one small company putting up ads on one small platform isn't going to cut it. As long as other companies can obtain a competitive advantage by advertising, then they are going to advertise to obtain that advantage. If other companies obtain such an advantage, then the first company in question is going to be forced to advertise in order to compete.

And then we foot the bill for the fact all the companies want to corner the market.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> Not at all. First of all, I did not assign any relative importance to any particular problem. The root of many problems is based upon the same failure - people at first have an issue with something - how important is not the real question -


How important is the real question - ads on the TiVo are just NOT that big a deal. They are unobtrusive and do not affect me when I go to use my TiVo DVR. I even click on a couple that have interest to me but it is totally my choice to look at the actual ad or not.

Some folks have a reaction to any advertising whatsoever - so the wiener bar ads that show up really do bug *them.* OK, that is an honest reaction, and your opinion of them is just that, yours. However; to try and make your opinion some failing on my part crosses the line.
Since the ads have no impact on me, I am fine with TiVo making some extra bucks as I like their products and that I indeed do have far more important things to worry about then it simply is NOT a failing on my part or many others to not join you in your crusade. You fail to see that and instead try and sound all important as if you are blowing the horn to defend the last bastion of democracy by getting ads off your TiVo interface. 
Have fun with that


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