# Alternate guide data for UK S1 Tivos



## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

I've started this thread to hopefully get some guidance from the moderators and hopefully have a place to discuss UK S1 Tivos going forward

As Tivo have announced that as of June 1st provision of guide data will cease for S1 UK Tivos, can we now have public discussions about the alternative methods of sourcing guide data?

I'd hope that the answer is "YES"

And PLEASE let's not have any discussions on the announcement from Tivo - there are plenty of other threads for that

I'd like THIS thread to be JUST about workable options for sourcing UK S1 Tivo guide data

Thanks


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

I hope otherwise but I think this will still be deemed a forbidden topic so as not to discourage S1 users in VM cable areas from subscribing to the VM TiVo service!


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Let's hope not but there is always the other place...


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I think you'll need to do the actual discussing elsewhere - the methods you use could be adopted by US S1 owners to steal service so are unlikely to be "legal" topics here.

Hopefully will allow the place where they are discussed to be advertised here.


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## jonphil (Aug 7, 2002)

Hope so, I still want my S1 Tivo to record freeview


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## CarlWalters (Oct 17, 2001)

I still want my TiVo to be able to record FreeSat too. 

I'd be a bit disappointed if the topic of obtaining our own guide data was to be outlawed here especially since my lifetime subscription will die in June. A bit like Logan's Run


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

Where is this 'other place' ?


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

PhilG said:


> I've started this thread to hopefully get some guidance from the moderators and hopefully have a place to discuss UK S1 Tivos going forward
> 
> As Tivo have announced that as of June 1st provision of guide data will cease for S1 UK Tivos, can we now have public discussions about the alternative methods of sourcing guide data?
> 
> ...


I contacted TiVo Inc directly and offered to run the service ...on a commercial basis ..and answer back came there none.

Having read the TiVo blog where they say 'go upgrade', the arrogance of TiVo Inc goes beyond the pale. Take a look at Scotland, for example. Not much coverage by VirginMedia there.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

sad_tivo_man said:


> Where is this 'other place' ?


google database, deals and tivo


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

Many thanks..duly bookmarked. Now wonder if I can invoice TiVo Inc for my wasted time in trying to get it all sorted out.


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

Just posted a question at TivoZA - here


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

The ZA system is pretty much a port of the Oz/NZ set-up but it would good to know what customisation they had to make (e.g. different postcode format; different signal sources).


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

The Dutch also do it.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

I suggest we just start discussing the alternative EPG anyway - if we get banned it will not be a problem given the Forum will be extinct in 3 months time. We can't even mention the 'other place' where such topics are openly developed although putting the words 'deal' and 'TiVo' into Google will quickly get you there if you are interested. Hopefully the Moderators will give us some slack so we can work on a plan?


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

Seems to me that there are two routes - both complicated. One involves opening up the box, sticking in network cards, re-imaging etc etc. The second, which involves emulating the TiVo Daily Update system, would only involve changing the phone number inside the TiVo itself. All the heavy lifting would be done outside TiVo.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

I seem to recall there are several free UK EPG providers out there - see http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/tellyguides/online.html and http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/tellyguides/software.html so a development is needed to grab the data and translate it to TiVo speak. No good for dial up users but OK for networked TiVo's.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

Heuer said:


> ....No good for dial up users but OK for networked TiVo's.


Why not? Emulate what the TiVo In server does.


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## DX30 (May 22, 2005)

Heuer said:


> I seem to recall there are several free UK EPG providers out there


There are possible legal issues here.

The Radio Times for instance allows download for personal use only. They are not happy for an intermediary to take their data, alter its format, then supply that to others.

So to abide by their T&C the TiVo would need to download directly from the RT website and perform any data manipulation on the TiVo itself. You couldn't legally provide a centralised Daily Update service, especially where money changed hands.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

sad_tivo_man said:


> Why not? Emulate what the TiVo In server does.


Easily said, not easily done. AFAIK the daily call process has not been reverse engineered, just the data delivery format.

If you are not networked you can use the built in modem to dial your ISP and from there download the guide data from a server set up for the purpose. But you need to adapt the software to both do that and to know how to process the downloaded guide data.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

DX30 said:


> There are possible legal issues here.
> 
> The Radio Times for instance allows download for personal use only. They are not happy for an intermediary to take their data, alter its format, then supply that to others.
> 
> So to abide by their T&C the TiVo would need to download directly from the RT website and perform any data manipulation on the TiVo itself. You couldn't legally provide a centralised Daily Update service, especially where money changed hands.


So long as you don't charge you should be OK; Linux software like Myth TV has established some solid guide data.

Of course for stuff like SPs and Suggestions to work properly, they will require some manual enhancing.


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

I've been making slices from Swedish tv listings for some time, and it works well usually. But if we can work with the Dutch, that would probably be the quickest solution.


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## DX30 (May 22, 2005)

TCM2007 said:


> Linux software like Myth TV has established some solid guide data.


The Topfield 5800 can also use 3rd party EPG data - I've used the Radio Times data on a Topfield myself. It's pretty good as a basic EPG but some of the metadata that would be needed for SP's is a bit dodgy.

There is a list of channels available at

http://xmltv.radiotimes.com/xmltv/channels.dat

The summary of the Radio Times T&C is

In accessing this XML feed, you agree that you will only access its contents for your own personal and non-commercial use and not for any commercial or other purposes, including advertising or selling any goods or services, including any third-party software applications available to the general public.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

DX30 said:


> including any third-party software applications available to the general public.


But we are not the "general public" we are an elite band of diehard Tivo lovers LOL


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## AENG (Dec 20, 2000)

Here's one lifetime S1 (times 2) owner, going VM, who'd like to keep at least one of them going with a viable substitute EPG, provided it's legal and do-able by someone whose only mod. to them so far is to plug in a pre-configured Mode 0 drive and who's never even seen a cache card or known anything about Linux. I would obviously expect to have to pay for any new service. The "lifetime" subscriptions I bought many years ago have more than paid for themselves IMHO.


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## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

And another, I am in exactly the same boat as AENG (except I only have 1 S1, not 2  )


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## martink0646 (Feb 8, 2005)

kitschcamp said:


> I've been making slices from Swedish tv listings for some time, and it works well usually. But if we can work with the Dutch, that would probably be the quickest solution.


Hi Kitschcamp,

How easy is the process? Is it feasible for individuals (who know there way round a PC but are not s/ware pro's) to do it & where can I go to get the info? I have looked at oztivo & tivosa but they don't go into the slicing methods as they make that provision available.

I'll put my hand up now to volunteer to assist any 'work' that needs doing with the caveat that it is within my capabilities!!! I'm also registering on healydave's forum.

In the ideal world someone will set up the epg service & I'll be happy to pay mikerr or healeydave for a pre-configured drive, with Mode 0 enabled & all the hacks installed. That would also provide some compensation for them for sorting out the epg???

Martin


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## gent1man (Feb 15, 2011)

Hello Phil, 
thanks for starting this off. 

But i paid for a lifetime subscription and i am very much still alive!

If the subscription service had gone bust then it could/must come up for sale -- but if virgin has bought it out then I am certain we have a case for virgin to honour the original agreements.

If you have already checked this then so be it, but i think a class action against vigin by all of us could do the trick. 

What do you think?
david


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

gent1man said:


> But i paid for a lifetime subscription and i am very much still alive!


Not another one 



> If you have already checked this then so be it, but i think a class action against vigin by all of us could do the trick. What do you think?


I won't say 'cos I don't like to be rude


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## Paul_J (Jan 9, 2001)

Carl after this news I think it is time you go the the VM based forum leaving those of use who can't move to their service to continue here. After geting a call from VM offering me a box yesterday I think enough salt has been rubbed into the wound without you adding you own!


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## kweller (Mar 10, 2002)

I've had years of service from my 'Lifetime' subscriptions so I can't complain about its removal. I am rather hoping there will be a way to continue to get guide data from somewhere though (or, failing that, that Sky will make wishlists available!).

Kevin


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

gent1man said:


> Hello Phil,
> thanks for starting this off.
> 
> But i paid for a lifetime subscription and i am very much still alive!
> ...


ARGGHH 

At the START of this thread I did say



> I've started this thread to hopefully get some guidance from the moderators and hopefully have a place to discuss UK S1 Tivos going forward
> 
> And PLEASE let's not have any discussions on the announcement from Tivo - there are plenty of other threads for that


So

*PLEASE let's not have any discussions on the announcement from Tivo - there are plenty of other threads for that*


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## AndyP (Mar 6, 2002)

Might it be possible to pull listings over the web from DigiGuide ? That is a subscription based service, but quite a cheap one annually.

I wouldn't hold out too much hope for a dial-up based system.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Paul_J said:


> Carl after this news I think it is time you go the the VM based forum leaving those of use who can't move to their service to continue here.


I'll post where I like, thanks.



> After geting a call from VM offering me a box yesterday I think enough salt has been rubbed into the wound without you adding you own!


No salt intended. If I were in your shoes I would be annoyed too. But then I also would know what "Lifetime" mean in this context and wouldn't be making stupid coments about my still being alive, etc.

I think you should be aiming your dis-satisfaction in other directions; towards people who are not doing your cause any good with their ill-thought-out comments.

For the record, I hope you do get something sorted out one way or the other. My brother still uses his


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

kweller said:


> (that Sky will make wishlists available!).
> 
> Kevin


They need to get Series Links working properly first. I almost missed the latest season of House restarting last week because SKY+ had dropped the series link when it took a break for Christmas.

My trusty Tivo picked it up and recorded it despite the day changing. The ONLY time I have ever had failed recordings on Tivo is when the SKY box has locked up.


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## djqster (Oct 22, 2010)

katman said:


> My trusty Tivo picked it up and recorded it despite the day changing. The ONLY time I have ever had failed recordings on Tivo is when the SKY box has locked up.


My TiVo sat in the garage for eight months, got taken out and switched from Sky to Freeview and it _still_ recorded the new series of 'Being Human'

Awesome stuff.

Just not quite awesome enough so I'd move to Swindon in order to get Virgin cable...


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## Millimole (May 29, 2003)

I guess I'm fairly typical in that I can find my way round a PC, but don't consider myself competent enough to 'hack' into a networked Tivo. I've replaced the hard drive on my Tivo - so know which end of a screwdriver to hold. Equally I'd love to keep my Tivo on the road after June 1st. I can't judge, but I guess that there's a number of people out there in my situation who would be prepared to make an investment to keep the box running.

So....what I think I'm saying is.... whatever solution that "the community" come up with has to be scaleable to a lot of people with a very wide variety of technical and geek skills. 
The ideal for me would be, I guess, to buy a replacement drive / new network card (I'm not currently networked) with all the software required to grab the replacement EPG, open the Tivo and drop it in.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Millimole said:


> So....what I think I'm saying is.... whatever solution that "the community" come up with has to be scaleable to a lot of people with a very wide variety of technical and geek skills.


indeed... sleep easy on that one


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## davidshack (Aug 17, 2002)

I recognise we are all very pi**ed at the announcement, but plse can we spend our energy finding a solution?

Seem to remember Digiguide was "worked" to provide information to allow wish-list recording, plus programmes marked within it. Which might sort the info needs of those of use who are network-enabled. 


Given that our contract (inc all T&Cs) with TiVo has been ENDED wef 1.6.11, I'm minded to the view that we will no longer be bound to any limitations on our discussions in this forum on sourcing data.

It would be helpful for our (nice) moderators to take this view and allow members to use their considerable skills to document a "fix".

Incidentally, I see Ebay management are SUPPRESSING the info that S1 TiVos are set to be mere bricks in 3 months; and only one of the many people selling S1 TiVos there mentions the end of the service. Clearly Caveat Emptor still rules on Ebay!


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

davidshack said:


> Incidentally, I see Ebay management are SUPPRESSING the info that S1 TiVos are set to be mere bricks in 3 months..


How?


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## theGecko (Nov 18, 2002)

Would a more legal (yet extreme) option be to try and get mythtv running on the series 1's?

The way I see it, we own the hardware and it will no longer be supported, so we can do what we want with it.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> How?


Supressing a bit strong, but I had a "warning" listing deleted for not being within eBay rules


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## davidshack (Aug 17, 2002)

cwaring said:


> How?


Easy. Someone (not me) put a TiVo item for sale on Ebay - with the heading (something like) "warning: TiVo service ending 1st June" & a text description explaining the change.
Within the day Ebay removed the listing!


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## dd_ (May 13, 2006)

As mentioned on t'other thread, I'm firmly in the AENG/alextegg/martink0646 camp, being happy to put something towards either development costs or subs or both.
A friend has MythTV, so have thought about that, but alas, I've found it a bit clunky compared to my dear old Tivo.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I had a "warning" listing deleted for not being within eBay rules


Ah so that was you... nice one! :up::up:


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

davidshack said:


> Easy. Someone (not me) put a TiVo item for sale on Ebay - with the heading (something like) "warning: TiVo service ending 1st June" & a text description explaining the change.
> Within the day Ebay removed the listing!


Well you weren't actually selling anything, were you?


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## groovyclam (Feb 18, 2002)

As usual this thread has veered wildly off-topic ( thanks Carl - not )

As I see it the situation is this:

People fall into two camps:

1) Dial-up
2) Networked

1) Dial-up
=========
Those users who are not technical enough to have a networked TiVo ( not a dig - I have taught basic computing and am sympathetic to non-techies ).
Initially, in order to get a partial solution, I suggest putting these people on hold for the following reason:

As I understand it to reposition the dial-up number to a new source would still require opening up the TiVo which would be beyond these users.

Non techie dial-up users are best off, for the moment, either petitioning TiVo to not withdraw the service or find someone who will be willing to offer a new dial-up solution. In all honesty however I think both those options are VERY unlikely due to the miniscule financial rewards ( your opinion may differ but please don't pollute this thread with moaning - there are two other threads for that ).

2) Networked Users ( me, for one )
==========================
In order to get the beginnings of a solution, if we as a community can get a ***FREE*** solution available then maybe we can save the dial-up users with it in the long run.
I haven't done a thorough Google yet but kitchcamp seems to imply it isn't beyond the wit of man to get a something like a weekly file together from listings scrapers, which we could then share ( distribute maybe by BitTottent ) that we can ftp onto our networked TiVos and get absorbed into the TiVos natural listing process.

I suggest the following for any techie networked uk TiVo owner willing to help:

Let's set up something like a wiki page or ( ugh ) facebook that we can begin to discuss the technical solution and help each other with the required code and generally pool knowledge outside of the free-for-all at the TiVo Community board.

I'm not trying to be mean or elitist but if you are not a programmery-techie networked series 1 TiVo owner then please don't contact me - if we get a working solution we will gladly post here on the board for you all to start using it.

For those that ARE programmery-techie networked series 1 TiVo owners that have time to spare to help then please email me at:

and we'll take it from there.

EDIT: Such a place has now been set up by nice chap healydave - go to http://www.tivoland.com/forum/index.php?c=4 for more info


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## Ovit-UK (Dec 26, 2002)

With regards t'other place, (which is new to me) is the correct section to bookmark S1 Support ?


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## whatever2 (Feb 16, 2011)

if someone could let me know the other place's address, that would be good...

used to be here under "1st thing" but the tivo has been so stable and reliable that the account pw is lost to an old email address that i can no longer remember.

running S1 on dial up, standard... but want to keep abreast of a possible solution


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Try Googling 'deal' and 'tivo' should give you what you want - i.e. a Forum dedicated to hacking.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

I suggest that we all congregate here http://www.tivoland.com/forum/index.php?sid=4f07d1bf8f1931618de83ac722dbc461 where healeydave has stepped up to the plate..rather than spin off elsewhere.


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## alu (Aug 29, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> Easily said, not easily done. AFAIK the daily call process has not been reverse engineered, just the data delivery format.


There is not much to it, really. It's a standard ppp dial-up to establish the IP connection. From there it's the same for dial-up and network card people.



groovyclam said:


> As I understand it to reposition the dial-up number to a new source would still require opening up the TiVo which would be beyond these users.


Not really. The number can be changed using the standard TiVo UI with a simple trick. If necessary anybody with a V.34 modem and a flat broadband connection could provide the service. Of course if 3000 people tried to use that one modem that could be tricky.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

alu said:


> There is not much to it, really. It's a standard ppp dial-up to establish the IP connection. From there it's the same for dial-up and network card people.


The roll-you-own guide data solutions ignore TiVo's built-in daily call mechanism and install hacks which directly download and install the data. No one has, AFAIK, made a TiVo server emulator.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

alu said:


> There is not much to it, really. It's a standard ppp dial-up to establish the IP connection. From there it's the same for dial-up and network card people.


But that only you gets you "connected".

As TCM2007 said, it's not a simple case of just downloading a file - there's a whole "conversation" tales place between your Tivo and the Tivo server (it passes things like box serial number; time of last call; any wishlists you have set up; etc; etc) before the programme guide data is finally downloaded.


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## davidshack (Aug 17, 2002)

spitfires said:


> there's a whole "conversation" tales place between your Tivo and the Tivo server (it passes things like box serial number; time of last call; any wishlists you have set up; etc; etc) before the programme guide data is finally downloaded.


But, for our purposes, is that necessary?
ie "serial number" is presumably to check entitlement; "time of last call" ditto (presumably prevents cloned serial numbers).


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## davidshack (Aug 17, 2002)

sad_tivo_man said:


> I suggest that we all congregate here http://www.tivoland.com/forum/index.php?sid=4f07d1bf8f1931618de83ac722dbc461 where healeydave has stepped up to the plate..rather than spin off elsewhere.


Good idea!

and thanks healeydave.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

davidshack said:


> But, for our purposes, is that necessary?
> ie "serial number" is presumably to check entitlement; "time of last call" ditto (presumably prevents cloned serial numbers).


If you want to take the "just change the phone number" approach then you have to creat someting an unmodified TiV will understand. If it doesn't get the answers it expects from the server then the daily call will fail. AFAIK no-one has figured out the handshaking etc.

The tried and tested rout is the best way forward I think, and that's the one the team at Tivoland are working on.


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## technoflare (Nov 7, 2002)

My Tivo box has been left dormant for a year or two now, should have sold it....its fairly worthless now...d'oh


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> If you want to take the "just change the phone number" approach then you have to creat someting an unmodified TiV will understand. If it doesn't get the answers it expects from the server then the daily call will fail. AFAIK no-one has figured out the handshaking etc.


Only because nobody has bothered; up until now, its only been really interested techies that wanted TiVo in unserviced locations that have needed to do this. Suddenly, there will be a number of people (how many?? anybody know??) with unmodified boxes that need a service but don't have the knowledge to anything much about it, and will just chuck out the box and get something new.

I don't think it's unachievable to produce something that a unmodified S1 will talk to, and I intend to have a go at doing so.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Good luck!

To support the homegrown EPG using that route you'll also need to emulate a full Guided Setup as well as the Daily Call. Again, that's never been done.


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## pscsuk (Jul 21, 2004)

The 'obvious' answer for the non-techies is for there to be a service where someone else will collect your TiVo, replace the disk (or put the necessary scripts on it) and deliver it back. The modem can still be used for a PPP connection to the Internet to get the data.

I'd argue that needing a hack (that can be installed by someone else, or shipped on an imaged disk) is a more realistic solution than trying to reverse engineer the TiVo servers.

Reverse engineering the protocol may be fun for someone, but if we rely on that, what happens if there's one case which isn't found during testing but then comes up later (after the proper service has been discontinued) and defeats the whole system...


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

pscsuk said:


> The 'obvious' answer for the non-techies is for there to be a service where someone else will collect your TiVo, replace the disk (or put the necessary scripts on it) and deliver it back. The modem can still be used for a PPP connection to the Internet to get the data.


Yep - no different to the end user than ordering a replacement drive - many actually do opt to send their tivos to be returned fitted out with new drive and cachecard etc instead of diy.


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## molesworth (Jul 9, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> Good luck!
> 
> To support the homegrown EPG using that route you'll also need to emulate a full Guided Setup as well as the Daily Call. Again, that's never been done.


Isn't the guided setup entirely within the box? I didn't think it did any external communication. There again, it's been a long time since I did one.

As for the daily call, with the right equipment* it shouldn't be hard to capture the data in both directions to see what's going on, and use the information to create an emulation of the server side. (I'm in the middle of a similar bit of reverse engineering, trying to replace an undocumented debugger for an embedded system, so I know these things can be done - even if they're not always easy.)

* - I should add, I've no idea what equipment would be needed, but I'm sure it exists...


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Possible in theory? Of course - any software developer will tell you anything is possible!

In practice the last guide data download is in a little over three months, no-one's made the hacked way work yet, and we don't have any way of reaching these non-techies to tell them what to do anyway!


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

...and parts of the communication are encrypted (i.e. not all the packet contents are in 'clear' text), so you would also have to hack the encryption algorithm.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

FYI you can 100% definitely add a different phone number to the dial prefix and TiVo will call it just fine. We have done this in the past - when the 0800 number stopped working we could change to use an 0845 backup number by placing the whole number in the dial prefix field.

You'd need to make it dial a private dial-up service where you can have a server that has the same IP address as the TiVo one (or use something like NAT to translate the address to another one).

This would be the easiest route for non-techies, though as others have pointed out emulating the full service would be difficult - mainly because of the blowfish encryption.

----------------

If you are interested in buying or renting marquees for your garden, wedding, or birthday party in the Derbyshire area, then have a look at: http://www.derbyshiregardenmarqueehire.co.uk


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Has anyone considered approaching Tribune and asking if they will continue to supply the EPG data, albeit as a subscription?


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## sculptor (Jan 7, 2003)

mikerr said:


> Yep - no different to the end user than ordering a replacement drive - many actually do opt to send their tivos to be returned fitted out with new drive and cachecard etc instead of diy.


I have no problems with using this method.
It's what I did when my original TiVo hard drive started to misbehave.

I took the step of not transferring my existing season passes and preferences. It didn't take too long to train TiVo again to what I like.


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