# Heroes - "Five Years Gone" S01E20 *Spoilers*



## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Wow. Just....wow!


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

I was just coming here to post the exact same thing.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

My tivo says the title of this show is "String Theory"...


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> My tivo says the title of this show is "String Theory"...


Yeah, first time I remember a show title being different than a chapter title, but "Five Years Gone" was the title of the chapter.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

That's funny, my Comcast guide says five years later. I had no inkling that Nathan was Sylar until he ordered Mohinder to go kill present day Hiro. Wicked man, just wicked.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm kinda confused though. Shouldn't Claire have been dead? The whole purpose of "Save the cheerleader, save the world" was so that Sylar couldn't regenerate. He obviously didn't have that ability in this timeline, so what good did it do to save the cheerleader?


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Quick question... I assume Peter was supposed to have Claire's power in this future, since she was alive and all... I wonder why he still had the scar?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Well, a cheerleader did die, and the explosion did happen, there was no mention as to which cheerleader was supposed to be saved.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

LOL... I was coming in to type "WOW... just WOW"... I guess I'm late.
An incredible episode.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

pcguru83 said:


> Wow. Just....wow!


+1. So much, I need to digest, and maybe re-watch.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

pcguru83 said:


> I'm kinda confused though. Shouldn't Claire have been dead? The whole purpose of "Save the cheerleader, save the world" was so that Sylar couldn't regenerate. He obviously didn't have that ability in this timeline, so what good did it do to save the cheerleader?


Obviously it didn't do any good. Future Hiro thought Syler was the one who exploded NY, but according to this episode, it was always Peter. So possibly the only thing "Saving the Cheerleader" did was to allow Peter to gain her powers and use them to survive the blast.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I called it earlier this year, NY goes bye bye.


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## cheerdude (Feb 27, 2001)

Great episode - The whole Sylar/Nathan reveal was great!

I had wondered if the Eric Roberts character was going to make an appearance or perhaps Linderman; though the act that restricts Heroes in the future was called the Linderman Act.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Damn, I want to know what was going on behind that door!


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Would have loved to see the fight that was going on behind that door between Syler and Peter.


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

I'm assuming that Ted Sprague was the one who blew up New York City. Sylar killed the illusion-casting girl and took her power and made it look like Sylar was the one who died. He eventually got to Nathan and took his identity.

So Claire never died -- in either timeline. This, of course, completely contradicts the online graphic novel. 

And this is yet another reason why I loathe time-travel stories. They present paradoxes that cannot be resolved.


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

my tivo cut off as peter and sylar were squaring off in the hallway. anyone fill me in?


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Graymalkin said:


> I'm assuming that Ted Sprague was the one who blew up New York City.


Possibly, but then why would Peter think he was the one who did it?


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

scheckeNYK said:


> my tivo cut off as peter and sylar were squaring off in the hallway. anyone fill me in?


Mohinder told Hiro and Ando to teleport back in time. The radiation intensity got to the point where the door was about to blow. Hiro and Ando teleported -- back to the right time, before NYC was destroyed. Hiro looked at the comic and saw himself gutting Sylar, and says, "Now comes the hard part..."


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Most exciting show on TV right now!


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

Graymalkin said:


> Mohinder told Hiro and Ando to teleport back in time. The radiation intensity got to the point where the door was about to blow. Hiro and Ando teleported -- back to the right time, before NYC was destroyed. Hiro looked at the comic and saw himself gutting Sylar, and says, "Now comes the hard part..."


thanks!


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

HFC
Just when I think they couldn't possibly top what's happened so far.
At the beginning I wasn't liking this episode much, but WOW. Just. WOW!


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

scheckeNYK said:


> my tivo cut off as peter and sylar were squaring off in the hallway. anyone fill me in?


Peter and Syler laid into each other, but all we got to see was Mohinder attempting to hold the door long enough for Hiro and Ando to get away. Future Hiro gave Ando what looked like a piece of the comic right before he died. Hiro kept saying he couldn't do it, but Ando told him he believed in him or something of that nature, and Hiro managed to teleport them back. That was pretty much it.


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

jking said:


> Possibly, but then why would Peter think he was the one who did it?


How the hell do I know? Peter tells Niki that he exploded NYC. Then he blames Sylar.

I think the storyline just took a turn for the worse. Somebody's going to have to post a really comprehensive explanation, because I can't figure it out.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Graymalkin said:


> So Claire never died -- in either timeline. This, of course, completely contradicts the online graphic novel.


That's exactly what threw me off. What was the point of the whole "Save the cheerleader, save the world" if she didn't die in either time line?


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

Is it possible Peter exploded NYC and regenerated by using Claire's power? But then he'd know that Nathan was dead and that Sylar had assumed Nathan's identity. So that can't be it.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Graymalkin said:


> I think the storyline just took a turn for the worse. Somebody's going to have to post a really comprehensive explanation, because I can't figure it out.


 :up: :up: :up:

I'm glad I'm not the only one lost (no pun intended). Seriously, the episode was great and all, but I'm really having trouble piecing this thing together...


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

This is bad. Really bad. I'm not going to be able to enjoy this show again until someone explains what went on here.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

pcguru83 said:


> That's exactly what threw me off. What was the point of the whole "Save the cheerleader, save the world" if she didn't die in either time line?


The future they were in was the future thread from AFTER Peter saved Claire. If they had gone 5 years into the future BEFORE the homecoming episode, they might well have been in a future where Claire was dead. At any rate, I took this episode to mean that the whole "Save the Cheerleader, Save the World" thing was just a theory of Future Hiro's, and not necessarily the solution they need to actually prevent the explosion.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Yup, I'm confused as well.


Is Dumbledore really dead?


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

Wow, what an incredibly strong ep. Quite a few storylines opened up, too.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Graymalkin said:


> Is it possible Peter exploded NYC and regenerated by using Claire's power? But then he'd know that Nathan was dead and that Sylar had assumed Nathan's identity. So that can't be it.


I don't know why he would know Nathan was dead just because he survived the blast. Syler could have killed Nathan at any time without Peter's knowledge. And according to Syler, he got to Nathan possibly after Nathan became President, so Nathan and Peter might have been estranged by that point.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Graymalkin said:


> This is bad. Really bad. I'm not going to be able to enjoy this show again until someone explains what went on here.


Calm down, Gray!!! Only 3 episodes left before we hopefully have some answers... and even if they're confusing answers, we will at least have an entire summer to figure them out!!


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## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

Graymalkin said:


> So Claire never died -- in either timeline. This, of course, completely contradicts the online graphic novel.


No it doesn't, not at all. Here's what probably happened:

Claire did die originally in Future Hiro's timeline. Peter then saved her after Future Hiro told him to. That caused Peter to gain Claires power. Because of that Peter became the bomb instead of Syler. The future Current Hiro was in had changed from the original one Future Hiro was in. But, the bomb, Peter instead of Syler, still went off and Claire was now alive.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

jking said:


> The future they were in was the future thread from AFTER Peter saved Claire. If they had gone 5 years into the future BEFORE the homecoming episode, they might well have been in a future where Claire was dead. At any rate, I took this episode to mean that the whole "Save the Cheerleader, Save the World" thing was just a theory of Future Hiro's, and not necessarily the solution they need to actually prevent the explosion.


+1

Future Hiro was still under the impression that things had changed when told by present day Hiro that Peter saved the cheerleader. I get the feeling this was the new timeline, but Hiro's plan was not complete in that he didn't have all the facts in relation to how the new timeline played out after Claire's rescue. Like I said earlier, he never said what cheerleader to save, just to save the cheerleader, save the world. A cheerleader has died in this new timeline, and the world is still a dark place. Future Hiro's plan failed.

Edit to add, something else has to change to save the future.


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

So you're saying Peter regenerated after exploding NYC?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Graymalkin said:


> So you're saying Peter regenerated after exploding NYC?


Yes.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

My head hurts. I'm going to bed. I'll put some more thought into this tomorrow.


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## JustAllie (Jan 5, 2002)

Posting before reading the thread (sorry if this is a smeek!)...

Familiar heroes with unfamiliar facial hair or scars?

I think we have Mirror Universe Heroes.  

And now back to the show.....


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

This show is going to be absolutely freakin' awesome on DVD (or better yet, HD-DVD) :up: 

Lest I forget, Peter is with Jessica in that future?! Not bad for him.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

nrrhgreg said:


> No it doesn't, not at all. Here's what probably happened:
> 
> Claire did die originally in Future Hiro's timeline. Peter then saved her after Future Hiro told him to. That caused Peter to gain Claires power. Because of that Peter became the bomb instead of Syler. The future Current Hiro was in had changed from the original one Future Hiro was in. But, the bomb, Peter instead of Syler, still went off and Claire was now alive.


This is a theory that I thought of as well. Which makes me think that if this is how it plays out, it seems the future is correcting itself and making sure that NYC gets exploded one way or another. I hate to say it, but going into next season, based on what was seen in this episode, I think it would be a much more interesting storyline (next year) if NYC does in fact explode.

Suppose they have a whole 5 year arc planned in which we see the events unfold to basically take us to where we're at in this episode at the end of season 5, with the big finale being kind of a revisit of this episode, but with our Heroes being successful in changing the future this time? That's almost undoubtedly not what they're planning, but I think it would be cool.


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## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

bdowell said:


> This show is going to be absolutely freakin' awesome on DVD (or better yet, HD-DVD) :up:
> 
> Lest I forget, Peter is with Jessica in that future?! Not bad for him.


Nope -- Niki, not Jessica. In this timeline, somehow, Jessica is killed/vanquished.

Oh, almost forgot...HOLY F***IN' CRAP!! I LOVE THIS SHOW!!!


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

And what about Parkman? He was kind of a lunatic in this timeline.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

jking said:


> And what about Parkman? He was kind of a lunatic in this timeline.


Oddly, I can see the seeds of that Parkman in the present day version.


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## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

jking said:


> This is a theory that I thought of as well. Which makes me think that if this is how it plays out, it seems the future is correcting itself and making sure that NYC gets exploded one way or another. I hate to say it, but going into next season, based on what was seen in this episode, I think it would be a much more interesting storyline (next year) if NYC does in fact explode.
> 
> Suppose they have a whole 5 year arc planned in which we see the events unfold to basically take us to where we're at in this episode at the end of season 5, with the big finale being kind of a revisit of this episode, but with our Heroes being successful in changing the future this time? That's almost undoubtedly not what they're planning, but I think it would be cool.


Ehhh, I don't know. I view this episode as a "Yesterday's Enterprise" sort of story. Current Hiro gets a taste of what the future will be like if he fails in his quest to kill Sylar. Now that he knows exactly how bad the future will be, he'll do everything in his power (no pun intended) to stop it from coming to pass. Think about it -- if we know the next 4 seasons will be ultra-depressing, set against the backdrop of millions of deaths, is that really a show to watch? Especially with all the real-world depressing sh*t we have to deal with? Besides, I thought I heard/read something about...



Spoiler



...a mostly-new cast on the show next season.


BTW, maybe this episode shows us the missing piece to changing the future? Future Hiro couldn't pinpont the one spot in time that needed to change. Maybe this is it -- with all of Hiro's doubt about himself and his powers, maybe the "it" moment that changes everything is Current Hiro seeing himself die and realizing that, in a way, the future of the world truly rests on his shoulders.

Man, talk about a paradox there...


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## cyke93 (Jan 29, 2004)

The whole "Save the cheerleader, save the world" was explained in the beginning of the episode. By saving claire, Syler never took clarie's power thus allowing Hiro to kill him with his sword (as seen in the comic). The message was missing a sentence, save the cheerleader, hiro kill syler, then save the world.

In the timeline of the episode, Hiro did not kill syler, which leads me to believe that the whole "Save the world" did not mean stopping the bomb but rather stopping Syler from impersonating Nathan and imposing his policies. Linderman said that the bomb was necessary to save the world. Now I'm really wondering if they are going to let the bomb go off or not.


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## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

JustAllie said:


> Posting before reading the thread (sorry if this is a smeek!)...
> 
> Familiar heroes with unfamiliar facial hair or scars?
> 
> ...


<Deity of your choice> bless you for sneakin' in the _Trek_ reference. It's on life support, but we gotta get it out there where we can.


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

I find it hard to believe that Sylar could sustain an illusion over _everybody_ for five years.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think people may be over-thinking it.

Save the cheerleader...mission accomplished.

Which means that Sylar is now not able to regenerate himself when Hiro runs him through.

NOW...save the world.

By running unregenerate Sylar through.

[edit] Or what Cyke said while I was typing.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Graymalkin said:


> I find it hard to believe that Sylar could sustain an illusion over _everybody_ for five years.


Why would it have to be over everybody? Wouldn't it suffice to hold the illusion over just the right people?


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## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

cyke93 said:


> The whole "Save the cheerleader, save the world" was explained in the beginning of the episode. By saving claire, Syler never took clarie's power thus allowing Hiro to kill him with his sword (as seen in the comic). The message was missing a sentence, save the cheerleader, hiro kill syler, then save the world.
> 
> In the timeline of the episode, Hiro did not kill syler, which leads me to believe that the whole "Save the world" did not mean stopping the bomb but rather stopping Syler from impersonating Nathan and imposing his policies. Linderman said that the bomb was necessary to save the world. Now I'm really wondering if they are going to let the bomb go off or not.


I was going to post the same thing. At the beginning of the episode Future Hiro tells Present Hiro that Sylar was able to regenerate after being stabbed. Because Claire was saved at Homecoming, and Sylar didn't absorb her powers, Present Hiro will be able to kill Sylar.


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

bdowell said:


> Why would it have to be over everybody? Wouldn't it suffice to hold the illusion over just the right people?


Because he's the President of the United States, who appears on television before billions of people. Or are you saying he can fool TV cameras, too?


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Sorry, this episode was neat and all, but the time travel stuff is a bad idea. It's going to get picked apart and make everyone's head hurt and we're going to get countless Back to the Future theories. Because basically, that's what they did. They turned this into Back to the Future. If the writers want to do time travel, they need to produce a set of rules for why they can and can't do things. I don't even care if they make sense, I just want to know what they're thinking.

Really entertaining episode, though.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Bahh, frick it all, it was a what if episode anyway. Just enjoy it for crying out loud


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Graymalkin said:


> I find it hard to believe that Sylar could sustain an illusion over _everybody_ for five years.


Surely you don't think that Peter Petrelli takes a crap in front of an audience - maybe that's when the real Sylar comes out. 

Great episode. How can one episode be so completely satisfying yet leave you wanting so much more? Quite the paradox.


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## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

Graymalkin said:


> I find it hard to believe that Sylar could sustain an illusion over _everybody_ for five years.


Nathan/Sylar: "Brother versus brother...it's almost biblical."

Peter: "My brother can't walk through walls - who are you?!?!"

And then the Sylar reveal, with Peter telling him, "You're gonna pay for what you did to Nathan."

Peter didn't realize Nathan was dead until that moment in the hallway. I would imagine that Nathan separated himself from Peter after Peter blew up NYC and was killed by Sylar sometime in the intervening 5 years, possibly after Nathan became President. If I had to guess, I'd say Sylar's been President since whenever the Linderman Act was passed - his way of rounding up all the specials who would be a threat to him. With the planned genocide, there'd be literally no one on Earth who could stop Sylar.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Graymalkin said:


> Because he's the President of the United States, who appears on television before billions of people. Or are you saying he can fool TV cameras, too?


I'll say that. Sylar sure looked like Nathan on the TV in Texas.


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## cyke93 (Jan 29, 2004)

Jagman_sl said:


> I was going to post the same thing. At the beginning of the episode Future Hiro tells Present Hiro that Sylar was able to regenerate after being stabbed. Because Claire was saved at Homecoming, and Sylar didn't absorb her powers, Present Hiro will be able to kill Sylar.


Exactly. The question now is, does Peter still explode? With Syler gone, there wouldn't be the policies that Fake Nathan put in place as president. Does saving the world, really just mean getting rid of Syler.

Originally, I read that season 2 will focus on a mostly new cast and storyline. If that remains true, then it would make sense for Syler to die and Peter wouldn't explode. But I read an article, I believe on eonline that for the 2nd season, most of the cast is back because they worked so well together. It also stated trying to find ways to advance such a large cast and already complex story. So I'm thinking now that season 1 will end with Peter still exploding but Syler dead. With NY in ruins, it sets up a whole new storyline for them to follow. Peter dealing with what he did, Nathan's political career, etc etc


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

Jagman_sl said:


> I was going to post the same thing. At the beginning of the episode Future Hiro tells Present Hiro that Sylar was able to regenerate after being stabbed. Because Claire was saved at Homecoming, and Sylar didn't absorb her powers, Present Hiro will be able to kill Sylar.


OK, but Claire's still alive in this timeline. So how did Sylar regenerate after being stabbed? Or did that never happen at all because she was saved? And how does Future Hiro remember a past that never happened?

God, I really really REALLY hate time travel.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

There's kind of two separate issues now. Issue #1 is to "save the world," to stop New York from exploding. Issue #2 is Sylar, which doesn't have anything to do with New York exploding as we found out here.

The only big problem I have with this is motivation. Why would Sylar want all of the people with special abilities killed (his extermination order in this episode)? His main purpose seems to be absorbing power, and he needs to have them alive for that.

I thought it was extremely cool the way they composed that one shot of the President exactly like the painting. They totally got me with the fact that Sylar was pretending to be Nathan.

All in all, though, AWESOME episode. Explained a lot, but still left much to be answered.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

FreakyD said:


> Think about it -- if we know the next 4 seasons will be ultra-depressing, set against the backdrop of millions of deaths, is that really a show to watch? Especially with all the real-world depressing sh*t we have to deal with? Besides, I thought I heard/read something about...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As I said, almost undoubtedly not what they're planning, but I think it would be cool just for the fact that it would be different, unexpected. And on what you read...



Spoiler



I had read the same. I think they could follow that arc and still manage to focus on other heroes. At this point, I'm concerned about next season taking on a "more of the same" vibe with simply new heroes and another mission. Part of what has been so great about this season is the newness of it all, and they won't have that going for them next season. Everyone will be looking for them to take it up a notch.


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## cyke93 (Jan 29, 2004)

Graymalkin said:


> OK, but Claire's still alive in this timeline. So how did Sylar regenerate after being stabbed? Or did that never happen at all because she was saved? And how does Future Hiro remember a past that never happened?
> 
> God, I really really REALLY hate time travel.


Syler does not have the ability to heal, but he was not killed by Hiro... remember that when they introduced the episode they said "What if" which is what "to the future episodes" really are. So now that Hiro knows what to do, we know he'll do it.


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## cyke93 (Jan 29, 2004)

Peter000 said:


> The only big problem I have with this is motivation. Why would Sylar want all of the people with special abilities killed (his extermination order in this episode)? His main purpose seems to be absorbing power, and he needs to have them alive for that.


He says that the number of people with abilities has risen exponentially. He doesn't have the time to keep going out and taking everyones power. He's already acquired so much power, as he tells Claire before he kills her.

The show throws so much information at you, it's hard to get off track... i had to rewind to certain scenes, either way a great show !


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think people may be over-thinking it.
> 
> Save the cheerleader...mission accomplished.
> 
> ...


exactly.


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## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

Peter000 said:


> There's kind of two separate issues now. Issue #1 is to "save the world," to stop New York from exploding. Issue #2 is Sylar, which doesn't have anything to do with New York exploding as we found out here.
> 
> The only big problem I have with this is motivation. Why would Sylar want all of the people with special abilities killed (his extermination order in this episode)? His main purpose seems to be absorbing power, and he needs to have them alive for that.
> 
> ...


Sylar's dialog right before he offed Claire's noggin seemed to indicate that, at some point, it became all about the power for Sylar.

Nathan/Sylar: "I'm the leader of the free world. For all I know, I'm the most 'special' person there is. Lord knows I've found enough power...met a lot of special people. Like this girl named Candace, who allowed me to become President.

But I'm done. I just want to eliminate the competition. I don't need any more power...especially not after you."

A natural extension of loco-batsh*t Sylar we know in the 'current' timeline -- get all the power you can until you're undefeatable, then take over and rule everyone.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Peter000 said:


> I thought it was extremely cool the way they composed that one shot of the President exactly like the painting. They totally got me with the fact that Sylar was pretending to be Nathan.


And it also gives weight to the Bizarro painting Syler was painting at the end of last week's episode. He was painting himself as the President, because he saw himself taking the President's identity.


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## JustAllie (Jan 5, 2002)

FreakyD said:


> <Deity of your choice> bless you for sneakin' in the _Trek_ reference. It's on life support, but we gotta get it out there where we can.


Hiro would be proud, doncha think?


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Graymalkin said:


> OK, but Claire's still alive in this timeline. So how did Sylar regenerate after being stabbed? Or did that never happen at all because she was saved? And how does Future Hiro remember a past that never happened?
> 
> God, I really really REALLY hate time travel.


Future Hiro was not remembering a past that "never happened"... he was just trying to piece all the evidence together with the timeline strings, and the 9th Wonder comic. Sylar wasn't stabbed in his timeline, obviously... and you're right, he didn't have Claire's ability. But he did have the illusion creating ability, so he made everyone think he was the bomb and perished in the blast, which made the perfect cover to pretend to be Nathan and carry out his ultimate destiny.

This makes me suspect that Sylar is a red herring, in terms of the bomb. He's just taking advantage of the bomb exploding, not instigating it.

Did Hiro find out that Peter nuked NYC and not Sylar? I can't remember who was with Peter when he said (in effect) "It wasn't Sylar... I was the bomb!"

One other HUGE time travel inconsistency we had was that Future Hiro hadn't gone back to tell Peter to "Save the Cheerleader," had he? So if he was shot and killed before that, The future should have been changed, because Sylar killed Claire, since Peter never got the warning.

AND future Hiro was surprised to see himself! Why? He should have been expecting himself to pop in, because he should remember doing that 5 years previous.

I have to watch this again.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I'd say the first 20 minutes or so of this episode were probably the worst ever presented in the series so far. The latter 40 minutes got more interesting, and some of the 24-ness of it disappeared. So that helped. All in all, I think they said what they needed to say for purposes of telling the story in the way they want to, but this episode was a hack job to get there.


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## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

jking said:


> And it also gives weight to the Bizarro painting Syler was painting at the end of last week's episode. He was painting himself as the President, because he saw himself taking the President's identity.


I was just going to post this, too...

One other thing I just caught in the re-watching: Sylar tells Peter, "When I killed Nathan, he'd already turned against his own kind." Could this mean that, in the current timeline, Nathan is responsible for, if not the introduction, then the passage of the Linderman Act -- possibly all part of Linderman's plan, the reason Linderman is going to set Nathan up in the White House? This would mean Linderman might want all the 'specials' to go away. But why?

Man...how the hell do you wrap all this up in 3 more episodes?


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## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

Can we assume that Parkman knew Sylar was really the President? Him being a telepath and all.


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## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

Peter000 said:


> ...he was just trying to piece all the evidence together with the timeline strings, and the 9th Wonder comic.


And, perhaps, we now know what Isaac meant when he told Sylar that he knew how to defeat him. He saw a future in which Sylar dies and sent that knowledge into the future via the comic book, which Hiro picked up and had at the end of the episode.


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## xuxa (Oct 8, 2001)

dswallow said:


> I'd say the first 20 minutes or so of this episode were probably the worst ever presented in the series so far. The latter 40 minutes got more interesting, and some of the 24-ness of it disappeared. So that helped. All in all, I think they said what they needed to say for purposes of telling the story in the way they want to, but this episode was a hack job to get there.


Wouldn't expect any other review from you.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

dswallow said:


> I'd say the first 20 minutes or so of this episode were probably the worst ever presented in the series so far. The latter 40 minutes got more interesting, and some of the 24-ness of it disappeared. So that helped. All in all, I think they said what they needed to say for purposes of telling the story in the way they want to, but this episode was a hack job to get there.


So you're saying you didn't like this little exchange at the beginning? 

Hiro: I look upset. 
Ando: Go. Talk to yourself
Hiro: No way ... I scare me. You do it.
Ando: Excuse me. Future Hiro ...


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Malcontent said:


> Can we assume that Parkman knew Sylar was really the President? Him being a telepath and all.


Not necessarily. He can read thoughts, not personalities. So it's possible that Sylar just thought "as Nathan" and never gave anything away.


----------



## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

*The Haitian is down!!! The Haitian is down!!!!*

Know we know the Haitian can block super powers at will.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

drew2k said:


> So you're saying you didn't like this little exchange at the beginning?
> 
> Hiro: I look upset.
> Ando: Go. Talk to yourself
> ...


Ando and Hiro totally rocked this episode.


----------



## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

Peter000 said:


> So it's possible that Sylar just thought "as Nathan" and never gave anything away.


For years at a time?


----------



## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

Peter000 said:


> Did Hiro find out that Peter nuked NYC and not Sylar? I can't remember who was with Peter when he said (in effect) "It wasn't Sylar... I was the bomb!"


Peter was with Niki when he said that.


Peter000 said:


> One other HUGE time travel inconsistency we had was that Future Hiro hadn't gone back to tell Peter to "Save the Cheerleader," had he? So if he was shot and killed before that, The future should have been changed, because Sylar killed Claire, since Peter never got the warning.


The episode was set AFTER he had already gone back and given Peter the 'STC, STW' warning. No problems here...


Peter000 said:


> AND future Hiro was surprised to see himself! Why? He should have been expecting himself to pop in, because he should remember doing that 5 years previous.


Not necessarily surprise from Future Hiro. Remember, Future Hiro hadn't been back into the past in a while (subjectively speaking, from his point of view in the future timeline). He just didn't expect Current Hiro to show up there -- he was still waiting to find out what downstream effects his 'STC, STW' warning had on his own 'present', or still trying to figure out why the warning didn't change the future, i.e. his present.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

With all of those abilities combining, who knows? Maybe the "how things worked" ability enabled him to totally take on Nathan's personality completely. Or maybe he had the Haitian block Parkman's ability whenever they met.


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## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

Peter000 said:


> Not necessarily. He can read thoughts, not personalities. So it's possible that Sylar just thought "as Nathan" and never gave anything away.


More reason to believe that Sylar killed Nathan and took his place after becoming President. It's reasonable to assume that Parkman was working with Homeland Security at least as long as Nathan had been President. If Parkman already trusted Nathan at the point he was killed by Sylar, Parkman wouldn't have had any reason to whip out the 'Oh, I gotta take a wicked crap!' face and try to read Nathan's mind.

Remember, even 5 years down the road, Parkman still has to concentrate and focus on a person to get even a thought from him. If Sylar was careful around Parkman to maintain the Nathan facade in terms of actions and mannerisms, Parkman would have been none the wiser and had no reason to snoop around in Sylar's noggin.


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## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

Peter000 said:


> With all of those abilities combining, who knows? Maybe the "how things worked" ability enabled him to totally take on Nathan's personality completely. Or maybe he had the Haitian block Parkman's ability whenever they met.


With what we know about the Haitian's activities to this point in the current timeline, it seems unlikely that he would start working with Sylar. Then again, 5 years is a long time...


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Here's my take... we're going to need a Primer style graphical timeline crossover chart though to be sure.

1st timeline (original timeline)...

Sylar kills claire, takes her power, becomes nearly invicible, peter or sylar blows up nyc (irrelevant who), hiro studies the timeline carefully and maps it out and realizes that he can affect change by asking peter to save the cheerleader at a precise moment in time

2nd timeline... (this is the timeline we have been seeing so far in the show)

(Before A - Hiro creates 2nd timeline branch by telling peter to save the cheerleader - too lazy to re-order)
A. Sylar fails to kill claire, (peter saves claire)
B. Hiro gets the sword, teleports Ando and himself into the future of 2nd timeline
C. Isaac gains Kwisatz Haderach like powers, able to see potential future where his comic book (ahem, some of us called this last week) affects just enough change to enable G below.
D. (shaky - speculation) d-day arrives as ted gets too close to peter, Peter can't control his power because he's peter and unable to "focus, daniel-san".
E. Hiro, now having zapped into the future, sees the 2nd timeline. In the second timeline, Hiro has not stabbed sylar (because he bamf-ed into the future from linderman's)
F. In second timeline's future, claire remained safe and hidden for 5 years, sylar somehow killed nathan, hiro began opposing "nathan" (aka Sylar), etc.
G. 2nd timeline hiro who went forward in time encounters future 2nd timeline hiro, sees him die, realizes he has to go back in time to kill sylar, and can only do so while aided by mohinder.

(back to second timeline, branch occurs at D)
A. Sylar fails to kill claire
B. Hiro gets the sword, teleports Ando and himself into the future of 2nd timeline
C. Isaac gains Kwisatz Haderach like powers, able to see potential future where his comic book (ahem, some of us called this last week) affects just enough change to enable G below.
D. Hiro kills sylar, prevents second timeline E-G, etc.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

And BTW, my main problem with this episode was character motivations. I don't buy the Haitian turning uber bad (Parkman, maybe, Haitian, no), for example.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

I loved Bennett's motivation: He was Odessa's Oscar Schindler. Very nice touch.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

FreakyD said:


> The episode was set AFTER he had already gone back and given Peter the 'STC, STW' warning.


I'm not so sure about that. I thought that the past Hiro informed the future Hiro that he had done it. I have to rewatch again.


> No problems here...Not necessarily surprise from Future Hiro.
> 
> 
> > Remember, Future Hiro hadn't been back into the past in a while (subjectively speaking, from his point of view in the future timeline). He just didn't expect Current Hiro to show up there -- he was still waiting to find out what downstream effects his 'STC, STW' warning had on his own 'present', or still trying to figure out why the warning didn't change the future, i.e. his present.
> ...


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

My otherwise brilliant summary leaves the question of where 2nd timeline future hiro was / came from.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

This episode was complete BS....







....there's no way they'd have a memorial up in just five years.


----------



## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

Peter000 said:


> Hiro wouldn't forget details as important as meeting himself in the future.


Ah, but here's why Graymalkin's head hurts: Future Hiro didn't meet himself (Current Hiro) in the future until it happened. Current Hiro changed the future by teleporting himself into that future and bumping into himself in Isaac's loft. Future Hiro had nothing to remember about that meeting until it happened. Brings up the interesting thought...I wonder if Future Hiro's 'memories' of the last 5 years suddenly included that meeting when Current Hiro popped into that timeline on the roof with Ando.

Ugh...now *my* head hurts. Gray, pass the Excedrin.


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## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> ...able to see potential future where his comic book (ahem, some of us called this last week)...





TAsunder said:


> My otherwise brilliant summary leaves the question of where 2nd timeline future hiro was / came from.


Well, I'd pat you on the back, but my arms aren't long enough to reach. 

Seriously, though, I like where you're going with the timeline. But I don't know that you have to have 2 Future Hiro's. I think the same one can fit in both branches. Of course, if there are 2 branches, maybe he's folding space/time to hit both of them, hoping at least one of them works out.

Can you map all this with some string and Post-It's and take some snaps for us to examine?


----------



## WinBear (Aug 24, 2000)

All this speculation and I've heard


Spoiler



that Zachary Quinto (Sylar) is supposed to be back next season.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I think I've got it all down except for one thing, who was the woman helping Bennet?


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Here's my take... we're going to need a Primer style graphical timeline crossover chart though to be sure.
> 
> 1st timeline (original timeline)...
> 
> ...


The only way your timeline can work is if that you assume ALL possible timelines exist simultaneously, and Hiro can jump in between them. Which is possible, I guess, but doesn't seem like the writers are coming from that... one timeline, change the outcome.

The only real thing that has to happen with a future Hiro is that, win or lose, he HAS to grow a soul patch, wear a leather trench coat and come back to Peter in the subway to tell him to "save the cheerleader." And remember to mention the scar.


----------



## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

The woman helping Bennet was Hannah. The woman that found Ted in the cabin in the Vegas desert.

And the future Hiro had already gone back in time to Peter on the subway because future Mohinder remembered it happening.

J


----------



## RickStrobel (Jan 19, 2000)

Damn, what a great show!


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

I just hope that we get to hear Hiro say "Someone set up us the bomb" sometime soon.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

WHAT YOU SAY!?!?!


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Man this was such a satisfying episode. I have 24 on my tivo to watch and I really don't care. This show is awesome!


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

jwjody said:


> And the future Hiro had already gone back in time to Peter on the subway because future Mohinder remembered it happening.
> 
> J


Doesn't mean that future Hiro had done it yet... it only means that Mohinder remembers it from 5 years previous.


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

Count me in as one of those who hates time travel episodes because it's impossible to do them with even a hint of logical flow.

When Future Hiro goes back to tell Peter to STC. STW., he changes the time line set up in Mr. Isock's studio. So when he gets back, Sylar never killed Claire and he should have no memory of it ever happening or any string on his time line where it did happen. There are a million tiny little things wrong with time travel, and the big one that it's not possible to do. So I really wish they wouldn't do them, unless it's a Halloween Simpson's episode.

I'm going to try and just forget about this episode entirely within the time line of the show, even though it was very fun to watch. It's just impossible for me to not nit-pick at all of those little inconsistencies that everyone has pointed out so far.


----------



## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

Can't some of you just suspend disbelief a little and just enjoy the episode? 

No time travel episode on TV is going to hold up to close scrutiny (or even scrutiny from a mile away). Just pretend like the writers set up their own very specific rules for time travel that we don't know and they're working exactly like they're supposed to.

Oh yeah: Wow... just wow!


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I can't get to pages 3 and 4 of this thread for some reason, so apologies in advance if this smeeks ...

Peter absorbs Ted's powers and becomes the bomb, so ... where did Sylar get his radiation powers (or whatever it was he was using to fight Peter)?

What happened to Linderman? This is the future he wanted, but he's nowhere to be seen.

The producers said way back when that it's important that Nathan is standing next to Peter before the explosion and is the only one not running away. Maybe the future hasn't changed because Nathan is already dead at that point and the person standing next to Peter when he explodes is really Sylar?

How did Niki survive the bomb, but DL (a guy who can become insubstantial) did not?

This is why I dislike these "future Legion of Super Heroes" type stories ...


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Peter000 said:


> Doesn't mean that future Hiro had done it yet... it only means that Mohinder remembers it from 5 years previous.


I was mistaken, and missed a bit of dialog early on... I think what happened is Future Hiro had just returned from telling Peter to "Save the cheerleader, save the world." That's why he was surprised that everything was the same, and that present day Hiro was there.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

jschuur said:



> Can't some of you just suspend disbelief a little and just enjoy the episode?
> 
> No time travel episode on TV is going to hold up to close scrutiny (or even scrutiny from a mile away). Just pretend like the writers set up their own very specific rules for time travel that we don't know and they're working exactly like they're supposed to.
> 
> Oh yeah: Wow... just wow!


Just because I'm nit picking about some inconsistencies about the time travel, doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the program.  It's fun for me to analyze that kind of stuff. I love it when writers get it right, with no mistakes in the time-travel logic.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

My thinking is that the bomb was never going to be stopped the first time. The whole timeline to stop the bomb, includes the bomb going off, and then Hiro going to the future, to find out the information to go back and stop the bomb. He didn't have enough information the first time around.

Now, seemingly the key is for Hiro to kill Sylar. We don't know exactly why, because we're assuming Peter is the bomb.

It could be anything. Maybe Peter & Sylar engage in another brawl, and Peter goes nuclear during it.

Maybe Hiro kills Sylar before that happens?

The whole "save the cheerleader" moment can be two things. Sylar doesn't get Claire's powers, and Peter does. I think both are keys to the outcome.

Peter needs to be around after he destroys NYC to help past Hiro get back to the past. So if he never saves Claire, and assuming Peter still gets involved with it all, and still booms NYC, Peter dies, and is not there to help past Hiro in 5 years.

-smak-


----------



## VinceA (May 13, 2002)

jking said:


> Quick question... I assume Peter was supposed to have Claire's power in this future, since she was alive and all... I wonder why he still had the scar?


I'm guessing that in some battle the Haitian was around surpressing Peter's regenerative powers and Peter took a nasty hit to the face and couldn't insti-heal.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Shakhari said:


> I can't get to pages 3 and 4 of this thread for some reason, so apologies in advance if this smeeks ...
> 
> Peter absorbs Ted's powers and becomes the bomb, so ... where did Sylar get his radiation powers (or whatever it was he was using to fight Peter)?
> 
> ...


+1 on where's Linderman.

HF-Hiro brings Bennett a list of names. During the conversation he says something to the effect of "I don't want everybody, just the ones I brought to you" and then mentions some names (possibly the names in the list). I'm pretty sure one of the names mentioned is DL. Also, I'm pretty sure another name mentioned (the last one) is


Spoiler



mentioned in the previews for next week -- the little girl with some amazing power that can defeat Sylar.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> And BTW, my main problem with this episode was character motivations. I don't buy the Haitian turning uber bad (Parkman, maybe, Haitian, no), for example.


Parkman didn't consider himself 'bad'. He just came to believe that many of those with powers are bad. He bought into the Linderman Act. Parkman thought he was doing good by working for Homeland Security to round up those 'terrorists' with powers.

We know the Haitian has been around to enough to see people like Candace or Sylar 'go bad'. He, too, was probably duped into 'helping' the President with his Linderman Act.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Jeeters said:


> Parkman didn't consider himself 'bad'. He just came to believe that many of those with powers are bad. He bought into the Linderman Act. Parkman thought he was doing good by working for Homeland Security to round up those 'terrorists' with powers.
> 
> We know the Haitian has been around to enough to see people like Candace or Sylar 'go bad'. He, too, was probably duped into 'helping' the President with his Linderman Act.


Or - we know he was working with Mama Petrelli. And Nathan was President. Maybe somewhere along the way Mame died and the Haitian started working for Nathan.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Remember (as if you could forget), it's "save the cheerleader, save the *world*", not NYC. The bomb can still go off in NYC, but what saves the world is Sylar not being POTUS.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Sylar must have killed DL also, because he went through the door. I'm sure he can't get powers from people he didn't kill himself.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

The haitian couldn't really have worked directly with nathan since, per this episode, his power is to stop ALL powers of others, right? At most he'd have worked with nathan birefly until sylar killed nathan.

Sylar's hands glowed blueish - could have been cold. Or, alternately, in 5 years he found some other power similar to radiation.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Mr. Soze said:


> Sylar must have killed DL also, because he went through the door. I'm sure he can't get powers from people he didn't kill himself.


Exactly. Which is why Peter said to Jessica that DL was dead.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Sylar's hands glowed blueish - could have been cold.


I took that as meaning he killed Ted and took his EMP ability.


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

busyba said:


> This episode was complete BS....
> 
> ....there's no way they'd have a memorial up in just five years.


ROFL! So true, so true! :up:


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

A lot of people feel that NYC will blow up. Although it'd be interesting, I just don't see it happening. Would it be interesting to see them fail? Sure. But for a show in its first season, I think it'd be too bold a move, and would potentially alienate too many of the more-casual watchers.

So let's say the bomb gets stopped. And either Syler or Peter is the bomb, although of course for Syler to explode he has to eat Sprague. And if it's Syler.... we have the setup now where he's vulnerable.

Let's say it's not, and that it is Peter - just like the visions he had way back midseason. No one's talked about those in awhile - and I'm not sure where they fit. The piece of the image that always confused me was how Claude was laughing during them. Others are looking horrified. I seem to recall Nathan looking resigned. Perhaps Peter does explode - but it's not the explosion that destroyed NY.

There are a few options:
1. Syler is intended to be the bomb. Either they stop (kill) him, or stop him from eating Sprague.
2. Peter is the bomb. In which case, he may die as that would be the most expeditious way of stopping him while he's charging. Dramatically for the show, this would be quite powerful, providing a strong new direction for Nathan and Claire in season 2.
3. Syler is the bomb, and gets stopped. What we see in Peter's flashbacks is him charging up an EMP burst. Why would he do that? To a) stop the hero-tracking system Linderman has in place, or b) to stop the mechanical rigging of the election.

Personally, I love #3. It allows for the misdirection we've seen, wraps up the Linderman subplots, and also explains Claude's expression.

We'll see!


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Mr. Soze said:


> Sylar must have killed DL also, because he went through the door. I'm sure he can't get powers from people he didn't kill himself.


In the 5 years they rounded up many people with powers (PWP) and Nathan/Sylar would have had access to most of them. It's entirely possible that DL's power is not unique.

Peter saying that DL died could be simply an assumption. DL disappeared and I still maintain that F-Hiro brought DL to Bennett, as he mentions.

Where's Hefe with the transcript?


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Sylar may mind control Ted into being the bomb.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Mind control... eh?


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Mind control... eh?


Like that little pixie chick did. The one whom Sylar killed in his cell.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Like that little pixie chick did. The one whom Sylar killed in his cell.


Except he didn't kill her. She killed herself.


Big_Daddy said:


> A lot of people feel that NYC will blow up. Although it'd be interesting, I just don't see it happening. Would it be interesting to see them fail? Sure.


I agree that they would never do it. I'm not even sure it would be interesting. In another show, sure, having the good guys lose could work. But I think it would completely violate the spirit of this particular show for the heroes to fail in such a spectacular way.

Nope. No New York go bye-bye. I'll bet the farm on it.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except he didn't kill her. She killed herself.


And he doesn't so far have her power


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> And he doesn't so far have her power


That being my point...he didn't have a chance to examine her living, powered brain, since by the time he got to it it was dead and all splattered against the wall.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

johnperkins21 said:


> Mr. Isock


 :up:


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Nope. No New York go bye-bye. I'll bet the farm on it.


I agree, and would bet my farm too. Wait, I don't have one!


----------



## GameGuru (Dec 12, 2003)

FreakyD said:


> Current Hiro changed the future by teleporting himself into that future and bumping into himself in Isaac's loft. *Future Hiro had nothing to remember about that meeting until it happened.*


Yes, time travel episodes suck. Yes the writers might be making up their own time travel rules as other have pointed out but SCI-FI writing has embedded in us some standard rules. Future Hiro will KNOW and REMEMBER everything from the past that happened in his affected timeline. If he goes back and warns them to save Claire and they do the instant he gets back he knows she is safe because his affected timeline has changed to her being safe. If 5 years ago Hiro teleports to the future and meats Future Hiro then Future Hiro's timeline was instantly affected and he should remember he teleported to the future from 5 years ago. What you do in the past instantly affects the future and your future selves only remember that affected timeline, not the original one.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Mr. Soze said:


> Remember (as if you could forget), it's "save the cheerleader, save the *world*", not NYC. The bomb can still go off in NYC, but what saves the world is Sylar not being POTUS.


But if that's what Future Hiro meant, then it necessarily follows that he knows that Sylar is Nathan. As he never mentioned that to Parkman, Peter, Present Hiro, etc., I don't think that's what he meant when he said "save the world".


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

GameGuru said:


> Yes, time travel episodes suck. Yes the writers might be making up their own time travel rules as other have pointed out but SCI-FI writing has embedded in us some standard rules. Future Hiro will KNOW and REMEMBER everything from the past that happened in his affected timeline. If he goes back and warns them to save Claire and they do the instant he gets back he knows she is safe because his affected timeline has changed to her being safe. If 5 years ago Hiro teleports to the future and meats Future Hiro then Future Hiro's timeline was instantly affected and he should remember he teleported to the future from 5 years ago. What you do in the past instantly affects the future and your future selves only remember that affected timeline, not the original one.


Heroes may or may not follow typical time travel writing, and I think it's better for it.

I don't accept that hiro's memory would change necessarily. Just like in SOME time travel sci fi, maybe he exists outside of time changes and is "the one guy" who is not altered by time changes.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Hey, what do we call future HRG?

Also, can they just leave NYC alone...sheesh?!

Another thing, did anyone have glitches? Ten minutes in, it froze and skipped into a commercial.


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

I'm trying to decide who has the best lines on TV.

I've narrowed it down to Hiro (Gulp! and I scare me) and Hurley (Ooops!)


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

I'm not trying to pick apart the time travel stuff too much. Here is what I take from it:

The future really sucks if they don't kill sylar.
Hiro needs to stab Sylar to complete the Save The Cheerleader, Save The World thing.
Everything else was just bonus and fun to watch. No matter how many holes there are in the time travel story it doesn't change what has to happen in the present time.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

stalemate said:


> I'm not trying to pick apart the time travel stuff too much. Here is what I take from it:
> 
> The future really sucks if they don't kill sylar.
> Hiro needs to stab Sylar to complete the Save The Cheerleader, Save The World thing.
> Everything else was just bonus and fun to watch. No matter how many holes there are in the time travel story it doesn't change what has to happen in the present time.


Not just stab, kill. Hopefully linderman isn't around when he stabs sylar.


----------



## TomK (May 22, 2001)

Was it Future Hiro who made the timelines that were hanging in Isaac's apartment?


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TomK said:


> Was it Future Hiro who made the timelines that were hanging in Isaac's apartment?


Yes


----------



## dimented (May 21, 2003)

TomK said:


> Was it Future Hiro who made the timelines that were hanging in Isaac's apartment?


Yes. He has been making the timelines trying to figure out exactly what to change in the timeline to prevent the bomb from going off.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Not just stab, kill. Hopefully linderman isn't around when he stabs sylar.


Well, we don't know if he needs to be killed--perhaps he just needs to be out of the picture long enough not to play a role in the events that would result in New York going blooey.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, we don't know if he needs to be killed--perhaps he just needs to be out of the picture long enough not to play a role in the events that would result in New York going blooey.


But then he could still potentially be evil green president.


----------



## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

stalemate said:


> I'm not trying to pick apart the time travel stuff too much. Here is what I take from it:
> 
> The future really sucks if they don't kill sylar.
> Hiro needs to stab Sylar to complete the Save The Cheerleader, Save The World thing.
> Everything else was just bonus and fun to watch. No matter how many holes there are in the time travel story it doesn't change what has to happen in the present time.


I think people are forgetting something.

Recall- Nathan spread the lie that it was Sylar who exploded (in order to protect Peter according to Peter). So Future Hiro (FH) THINKS that it's Sylar who exploded.

So FH went back in time to kill Sylar. He stabs him, but because ORIGINALLY Sylar had killed Claire, he was able to regenerate.

So FH gets the idea to go back to Oct 4 to tell Peter to STC, STW THINKING that if Peter saves Claire, Sylar won't have regenerate abilities and thus when FH goes to stab Sylar, Sylar will die, and thus not blow up NYC. However, FH was WRONG. Because it wasn't Sylar who blew up NYC in the first place. It was PETER.



jking said:


> ... I took this episode to mean that the whole "Save the Cheerleader, Save the World" thing was just a theory of Future Hiro's, and not necessarily the solution they need to actually prevent the explosion.


SO! as JKING theorized, saving Claire wasn't going to stop Peter from blowing up NYC. Sure, it keeps Sylar from becoming invincible, but that's completely irrelevent to saving NYC.


----------



## catcard (Mar 2, 2001)

I have to agree with Graymalkin's earlier post - all this is giving me a headache. Kinda like trying to figure out the Lost storyline. I just have to stop trying to figure it out and enjoy the show. It is as awesome show - hopefully we get some answers by the season end.


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## cyke93 (Jan 29, 2004)

I agree that having a character who can move in and out of time sucks in terms of all the paradox' that occur with that. i would've liked it better if hiro could still teleport, freeze time, but not be able to go back and forth. If they wanted to go to the future n crap, they already had isaac.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

milo99 said:


> SO! as JKING theorized, saving Claire wasn't going to stop Peter from blowing up NYC. Sure, it keeps Sylar from becoming invincible, but that's completely irrelevent to saving NYC.


Yep. The more I think about this, the more I think that Peter's going to die - sacrificing himself so he doesn't destroy NY.


----------



## ccooperev (Apr 24, 2001)

Malcontent said:


> Can we assume that Parkman knew Sylar was really the President? Him being a telepath and all.


I did find it curious that a "lowly" HomeLand Security agent would have direct access to the President... And that the President would take a cell phone call from said agent in the middle of a public speech...


----------



## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I agree that they would never do it. I'm not even sure it would be interesting. In another show, sure, having the good guys lose could work. But I think it would completely violate the spirit of this particular show for the heroes to fail in such a spectacular way.
> 
> Nope. No New York go bye-bye. I'll bet the farm on it.


I'll put money on that farm. They used up all the CGI money on the last episode to show NY blown up. 

Since they showed it already I don't think they'd do it again. This way they get to do it and not do it. And kill other heroes and other crazy stuff, cause they know they are going to "reset" it all.

Reminds of all the Star Trek episodes where they would blow up the Enterprise or Voyager or kill almost everyone, knowing that it would all get reset again.

I though it was a great episode. If was fun to see what they would make up (Peter & Niki) knowing that the timeline would change anyway.


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## ccooperev (Apr 24, 2001)

FreakyD said:


> Peter was with Niki when he said that.The episode was set AFTER he had already gone back and given Peter the 'STC, STW' warning. No problems here...Not necessarily surprise from Future Hiro. Remember, Future Hiro hadn't been back into the past in a while (subjectively speaking, from his point of view in the future timeline). He just didn't expect Current Hiro to show up there -- he was still waiting to find out what downstream effects his 'STC, STW' warning had on his own 'present', or still trying to figure out why the warning didn't change the future, i.e. his present.


I think Future Hiro's surprise was in seeing Ando. Because in this timeline, Ando had died in the blast.

I'm also really curious over what events transcribed over 5 years to transform the geeky, squeeky voiced, Hiro into burley deep American voiced Hiro.


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## ccooperev (Apr 24, 2001)

drew2k said:


> I loved Bennett's motivation: He was Odessa's Oscar Schindler. Very nice touch.


Very chilling that Parkman would kill HRG after being assured by him that his wife and child were safe.

I also felt Bennett was the "Harriet Tubman" of that era/timeline.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

ccooperev said:


> I did find it curious that a "lowly" HomeLand Security agent would have direct access to the President... And that the President would take a cell phone call from said agent in the middle of a public speech...


A mind reading Homeland Security agent isn't so lowly.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

gossamer88 said:


> Hey, what do we call future HRG?


"NRG"? (no-rimmed)


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

wprager said:


> In the 5 years they rounded up many people with powers (PWP) and Nathan/Sylar would have had access to most of them. It's entirely possible that DL's power is not unique.
> 
> Peter saying that DL died could be simply an assumption. DL disappeared and I still maintain that F-Hiro brought DL to Bennett, as he mentions.


F-Hiro also mentioned bringing Candace (sp?) the shape-shifter to Bennet, and we know that Sylar killed her. My assumption is that pretty much everyone that was brought to Bennet ended up a Sylar victim, since he clearly had both DL and Candace's powers. His entire goal in the future seems to be to round up and absorb the powers of *all* "heroes".


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

ccooperev said:


> I'm also really curious over what events transcribed over 5 years to transform the geeky, squeeky voiced, Hiro into burley deep American voiced Hiro.


A lot of time travelling around.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Great episode! I didn't read thru the 5 pages of posts, but just wanted to pop on and say WOW!!!!


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

So, once future Hiro finds out that the cheerleader was saved, and therefore Sylar can be killed in the past, why doesn't he go back and do it, rather than try to send present-day Hiro back?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

BTW, did anyone enjoy the fact that peter squinted while using hiro powers?


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

This was a great episode, except for one thing...it hurts my head.

I think the writers on Heroes really screwed up by pursuing a time-traveling story. Why? Because it becomes so complicated that it actually hurts people's heads when they try to think it through. 

I predict that the ratings for next week's episode go down because so many people couldn't follow this episode. People will get frustrated and just stop watching.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

My thoughts. Even though a lot of people last week didn't see it, it WAS Sylar painting himself in the oval office. Which makes me wonder...what if Isaacs painting is still Sylar in the oval office but all he could see was Nathan. In other words, Nathan should not be allowed to become president like Linderman thinks. Hopefully before Hiro teleported out, he picked up on the fact that it was Sylar pretending to be Nathan the whole time. And also, for the people debating on shapeshift/reality bender, wouldn't this be proof that Candance is a shapeshifter then? If it was an illusion to the people around you, it shouldn't be picked up by tvs as well.

There's nothing wrong with both Peter and Sylar having Ted's power. Peter doesn't have to kill to have the power so even though Peter has Ted's power, doesn't mean Sylar can't later kill Ted to get that power.

I think future Hiro still thought Claire was dead. I'm guessing HRG faked Claire's death so no one would go after her. It doesn't explain why Future Hiro couldn't kill Sylar...unless maybe Sylar got to Linderman somehow.

I thought it was a great episode and I try not to think about the time travel stuff too much. *passes around asprin* It does make the brain throb like mad.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Alright, my take on the time-travel...

Original timeline:
- Sylar kills Claire - gets her power
- Sylar kills Ted - gets his power
- Sylar, in NYC, get stabbed by Hiro, regenerates and then goes boom
- Hiro pieces all these things together over 5 years, then goes back in time to tell Peter to STC, STW.

When he does that, Hiro changes the future, so when he time-travels back to the future it is no longer *his* future, but rather a different one (his memories do not change, a la Back To The Future). The future he goes home to is the second timeline.

Second timeline:
- Sylar does not kill Claire
- Peter meets Claire - gets her power
- Peter meets Ted - gets his power
- Peter goes boom in NYC
- Nathan (or someone) blames Sylar instead of Peter

So that future is almost identical to the original except that Claire is alive and it was Peter, not Sylar that blew up. Avoiding most (not all) of the paradoxical issues surrounding the time travel. As far as future Hiro knows he left and came back to the same timeline, but he's wrong.

Also, in either timeline, it is entirely possible that *both* Peter and Sylar have Ted's nuke-abilities, as long as Peter met him before Sylar kills him it works. In fact that's my assumption for what will happen in the storyline that will take place now that Hiro and Ando are back in the present and can change things.

New timeline:
- Sylar does not kill Claire
- Peter meets Claire - gets her power
- Peter meets Ted - gets his power
- Sylar kills Ted - gets his power
- Sylar, in NYC, get stabbed by Hiro, *does not* regenerate and dies (no boom)
- Peter starts to go boom in NYC
- *something happens*
- Peter doesn't go boom


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

People still watched terminator 2 and loved both 1 and 2 despite a horrific and unsolveable time paradox at the end of the first. I don't think anyone is going to stop watching heroes. They did enough hand holding for people who would have a hard time following it.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

hapdrastic's hypothesis looks eerily familiar.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

BrettStah said:


> So, once future Hiro finds out that the cheerleader was saved, and therefore Sylar can be killed in the past, why doesn't he go back and do it, rather than try to send present-day Hiro back?


That's what I was wondering. He kept telling the other Hiro to go and I kept thinking "Well Mr. Badass, you could have already done it and been back by now."


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I thought he had some offhanded remark about not being able to interfere directly when ando asked him...?


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

TAsunder said:


> hapdrastic's hypothesis looks eerily familiar.


I was going to quote yours and just post the minor clarifications, but it was easier for me to just put my whole thought process together in one spot. Mostly I was trying to address the whole "why is the future still messed up if they saved Claire" thing and the who blew up thing.


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

Did F-Hiro's soul patch disappear when he was talking to Bennet, or am I imagining that?

Also, does the comic show Hiro stabbing Sylar, or just Sylar getting stabbed?


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## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

stalemate said:


> That's what I was wondering. He kept telling the other Hiro to go and I kept thinking "Well Mr. Badass, you could have already done it and been back by now."


Except that Current Hiro has struggled enough to handle things in the present, let alone be adept enough to get by in the future. Future Hiro has the advantage of experience, and he'd need all of that experience to stay one step ahead of Parkman/Homeland Security and Nathan/Sylar. Better that Current Hiro go back where he belongs.

This show must be doing crazy things to me...I'm even posting from work, now. Sheesh...


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## FreakyD (Oct 15, 2004)

hapdrastic said:


> New timeline:
> - Sylar does not kill Claire
> - Peter meets Claire - gets her power
> - Peter meets Ted - gets his power
> ...


Forgot a couple of other things:

- ???
- PROFIT!!



All kidding aside, I like where you and TAsunder are going. It makes sense within the context of the story so far and explains a lot without causing too many contradictions. I keep forgetting that the "original timeline" is really one that we never saw - what we've seen so far is really the 2nd timeline, after Future Hiro has gone back in time the first time.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

betts4 said:


> Great episode! I didn't read thru the 5 pages of posts, but just wanted to pop on and say WOW!!!!


smeek.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

FreakyD said:


> Forgot a couple of other things:
> 
> - ???
> - PROFIT!!


But who's going around stealing underware


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

ccooperev said:


> I did find it curious that a "lowly" HomeLand Security agent would have direct access to the President... And that the President would take a cell phone call from said agent in the middle of a public speech...


From this week's graphic novel:


Spoiler



Parkman is refered to as "Director Parkman."


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

hapdrastic said:


> I was going to quote yours and just post the minor clarifications, but it was easier for me to just put my whole thought process together in one spot. Mostly I was trying to address the whole "why is the future still messed up if they saved Claire" thing and the who blew up thing.


Well there still is the question of soul patch hiro. He seems inconsistent with the branching.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

milo99 said:


> I think people are forgetting something.
> 
> Recall- Nathan spread the lie that it was Sylar who exploded (in order to protect Peter according to Peter). So Future Hiro (FH) THINKS that it's Sylar who exploded.
> 
> ...


I do believe that Claire is key because


Spoiler



My guess is that Claire will be the one to talk Peter down from the explosion by believing in him.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Oh and anyone else see the similarity to this and X-Men's Days of Future Past, mentioned by Hiro in the first episode?


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## naiLS1 (Aug 19, 2005)

Why doesn't Hiro just go back and kill Sylar before he was even visited by Mohinder Sr.? Oh yeah, the show would end.

Best episode yet, BTW.


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## Deffdino (Sep 21, 2005)

A bit of a tangent....

Do we know if the Haitian can or can not 'give back' the memories he has 'taken'?


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> And also, for the people debating on shapeshift/reality bender, wouldn't this be proof that Candance is a shapeshifter then? If it was an illusion to the people around you, it shouldn't be picked up by tvs as well.


She's not a shape-shifter. She modified the perception of the police at Mr. Isock's studio when she hid the dead body. Just because they're breaking the rules doesn't change the fact that she's not a shape-shifter.


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## Sromkie (Aug 15, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> And also, for the people debating on shapeshift/reality bender, wouldn't this be proof that Candance is a shapeshifter then? If it was an illusion to the people around you, it shouldn't be picked up by tvs as well.


There's nothing that says her illusion would not be picked up by the television cameras. We don't know how it works at all, actually, so who's to say that she can't "fool" the cameras. Since she can alter her environment, unless we are assuming she is shapeshifting INTO her whole environment, there IS an aspect of illusion going on. Whether or not she is part of the illusion or actually shifting herself remains to be seen, but if she is already creating the illusion of the environment, it would just be easier and more consistent to have that be how she changes herself as well.



ccooperev said:


> I'm also really curious over what events transcribed over 5 years to transform the geeky, squeeky voiced, Hiro into burley deep American voiced Hiro.


Ando died. That's what changed. When speaking with Ando, F-Peter said something like "that Hiro died when you did." So, he just became a darker person overall when Ando died and, thus, lost the innocence and optimism expressed in the more child-like voice he uses now.



Mr. Soze said:


> Remember (as if you could forget), it's "save the cheerleader, save the world", not NYC. The bomb can still go off in NYC, but what saves the world is Sylar not being POTUS.





3D said:


> But if that's what Future Hiro meant, then it necessarily follows that he knows that Sylar is Nathan. As he never mentioned that to Parkman, Peter, Present Hiro, etc., I don't think that's what he meant when he said "save the world".


Not necessarily. When Nathan takes office, he (or Sylar) approves the Linderman Act. He used the explosion as a platform for his ideas as to why the Heros are dangerous. So, stopping the explosion could prevent him from being able to gain public acceptance of the danger posed by Heros. So, I don't think that he would have to know that Sylar is impersonating Nathan to mean "Save the World" in the bigger sense. I'm thinking it's more like, _Save the Cheerleader, Kill Sylar, Save New York, Save the World._


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## Royster (May 24, 2002)

There's a lot of discussion in these six pages. I don;t think we've tied up all the ends yet.

If Future Hiro came back to an altered timeline, why does Peter still have the scar? If he saved Claire and has her healing powers, why would he have such a scar?

Future Hiro is from a future where he failed to kill Syler. He believed that Syler blew up NYC, but didn't find out it was really Peter until it was too late. This future is not Present Hiro's future.

Isaac is now the one who has the chance of saving NYC. Hiro's plan failed because he didn't know all that really happened. Present Hiro likewise dosn;t know tht peter blew up NYC, so *his* plan may still yet fail. It's all down to what Hiro can learn from Isaac's comic.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Royster said:


> If Future Hiro came back to an altered timeline, why does Peter still have the scar? If he saved Claire and has her healing powers, why would he have such a scar?


Maybe it's just as simple as it's just really hard to regenerate from blowing yourself up.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

Ignoring the time travel aspect for a while (you're welcome, Graymalkin), I think there are four options for Sylar that don't involve killing him


Spoiler



, if he indeed sticks around in the next season, as it's been suggested



* Whatever circumstances make him part of the explosion (and we learned in this episode that he's probably not the actual guy exploding) are prevented from happening, but Sylar remains alive.

* Sylar is somehow nerfed and his powers taken away from him. He may proceed to plot other means to regain powers or surround himself with other evil heroes.

* He becomes a 'good guy'. We've seen plenty of changes in character this season already. What if Hiro traveled further back and prevented Sylar from killing anyone? I think this is unlikely though, since we already have a 'guy who collects powers' and he can do it without killing people.

* He reaches a limit to his powers and decides to play it safe and start living the good life with them instead of going for more and losing it all (unlikely, given his current ego).

As far as New York goes: This episode showed us that a (but not the only) possible future after the destruction of New York is that public opinion turns against those with special powers (or is it because the President/Sylar architected it?). The public doesn't know who caused the explosion and doesn't care about the circumstances. What I think is more likely is that the explosion as a whole is going to be prevented, but the process is so spectacular and plays out in public, that the existence of heroes becomes known, and this becomes the game changer of season 2.

Plus there's the fact that TV execs aren't going to allow millions of people to be killed in a weekly show in today's terrorism climate


Spoiler



(just look at the relatively minor explosion in 24 at the start of the season, confined to a small part of town)



I see the reality of New York's destruction as a May sweeps plan to get people to tune in and talk about the show and not a foregone conclusion.

Keep in mind that in this possible future, the rate of people with new powers being discovered was increasing. If this carries over into season 2, we'll have plenty of new good and bad guys to deal with.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Royster said:


> There's a lot of discussion in these six pages. I don;t think we've tied up all the ends yet.
> 
> If Future Hiro came back to an altered timeline, why does Peter still have the scar? If he saved Claire and has her healing powers, why would he have such a scar?
> 
> ...


Maybe he wants the scar there as a reminder of his guilt/shame and somehow can keep it there.

I don't see how sylar could have failed to kill claire if not for peter being there. He was chasing after her and no one knew that sylar was going after her until hiro told peter to save her, thereby informing other people (hrg, etc.) indirectly. So, I don't think there can be a timeline where claire lives AND peter doesn't have her powers. Unless once sylar kills her and eats her brains, she regenerates somehow.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Royster said:


> If Future Hiro came back to an altered timeline, why does Peter still have the scar? If he saved Claire and has her healing powers, why would he have such a scar?


They've never said where Peter got the scar, it could be from anything. Someone posited earlier that it could be that the Haitian stopped him from healing once. Or maybe he was unable to think of Claire after he got the scar (in a coma or something) and couldn't heal for long enough that the scar had time to set (so he could no longer heal it - there must be a statute of limitations on these things).

Maybe he had to allow himself to keep the scar in order to not cause a paradox (since Hiro mentioned it to him when he went back in time). Anything's possible.


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## bubba1972 (Mar 28, 2005)

Wouldn't the chances be pretty good that Peter would get a piece of glass lodged in his head after blowing himself up and not be able to regenerate...


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

bubba1972 said:


> Wouldn't the chances be pretty good that Peter would get a piece of glass lodged in his head after blowing himself up and not be able to regenerate...


I can't see how the chances are "good". Being the epicenter of a massive nuclear explosion, glass would not survive that environment, and even if it did, once the glass was removed, the wound would instantly heal. Otherwise claire would have a giant patch of hair missing. And so would peter.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

ok, this post is for one thing only.

dang it all, it's SYLAR not SylEr!!!!!

*phew* ..had to get that one out.. been drivin me nuts how many people keep spelling it wrong


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

milo99 said:


> ok, this post is for one thing only.
> 
> dang it all, it's SYLAR not SylEr!!!!!
> 
> *phew* ..had to get that one out.. been drivin me nuts how many people keep spelling it wrong


yeah, what melo99 said.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

I thought it was Psilur.


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## Sromkie (Aug 15, 2002)

hapdrastic said:


> Someone posited earlier that it could be that the Haitian stopped him from healing once.


This is the explanation that I like best so far. It makes sense that the Haitian would have been involved in many of these battles (given his role), so it is entirely plausible that he prevented the active use of Peter's powers at some point.



unicorngoddess said:


> Maybe it's just as simple as it's just really hard to regenerate from blowing yourself up.


Just because Peter may be the epicenter of the explosion, that doesn't necessarily mean that _he_ blows up. I have read many people trying to figure out how he could regenerate after exploding into itty bitty pieces, but there is really nothing that makes me think that he will actually explode when/if he were to destroy New York. When Ted hurt others with his radiation (especially when he blew up the house while clair was in it), there was no indication that it hurt him at alland he doesn't regenerate. I think that the explosion would emanate from Peter, but it wouldn't actually cause him to blow up.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Sromkie said:


> Just because Peter may be the epicenter of the explosion, that doesn't necessarily mean that _he_ blows up. I have read many people trying to figure out how he could regenerate after exploding into itty bitty pieces, but there is really nothing that makes me think that he will actually explode when/if he were to destroy New York. When Ted hurt others with his radiation (especially when he blew up the house while clair was in it), there was no indication that it hurt him at alland he doesn't regenerate. I think that the explosion would emanate from Peter, but it wouldn't actually cause him to blow up.


True. But the reason Peter keeps referring to it that way is because in his vision i think he literally saw himself blow up.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Heavy!


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

pcguru83 said:


> Wow. Just....wow!


+1

After 6+ of posts, I can only agree with the OP.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Sromkie said:


> Just because Peter may be the epicenter of the explosion, that doesn't necessarily mean that _he_ blows up. I have read many people trying to figure out how he could regenerate after exploding into itty bitty pieces, but there is really nothing that makes me think that he will actually explode when/if he were to destroy New York. When Ted hurt others with his radiation (especially when he blew up the house while clair was in it), there was no indication that it hurt him at alland he doesn't regenerate. I think that the explosion would emanate from Peter, but it wouldn't actually cause him to blow up.


_thank you._ i was going to post this earlier but forgot... got sidetracked by all the sylar misspellings 



unicorngoddess said:


> True. But the reason Peter keeps referring to it that way is because in his vision i think he literally saw himself blow up.


not quite. he saw himself glowing and starting what could only conclude as an explosion, but he did not see himself blow up to eety beety pieces.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

hapdrastic said:


> yeah, what melo99 said.


hahaha! thanks, needed that


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

The biggest plot hole in this episode was the fact that Future Hiro remembers stabbing Sylar and he regenerated even though in this timeline, Claire has been saved. How can they explain that?


busyba said:


> I thought it was Psilur.


Perhaps that should be a character in my book (The Age of Psiber Knights.)


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

NoThru22 said:


> The biggest plot hole in this episode was the fact that Future Hiro remembers stabbing Sylar and he regenerated even though in this timeline, Claire has been saved. How can they explain that?
> 
> Perhaps that should be a character in my book (The Age of Psiber Knights.)


I think someone came up with a plausable explaination to this. Future Hiro experienced the BTTF effect where when he left the past after telling our Hiro to STC. STW. he was returning to an alternate time line that he had created by his time travels. Although actual events may have changed, Future Hiro still only remembers what happened in HIS original timeline.

But, as others have pointed out, it doesn't explain Peter's scar too well.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> But, as others have pointed out, it doesn't explain Peter's scar too well.


I took that to be as a purposeful reminder of dark and gloomy Peter about what he's endured during and since the explosion. Perhaps he can control the extent of his regeneration and chose not to heal fully?


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## VinceA (May 13, 2002)

jschuur said:


> I took that to be as a purposeful reminder of dark and gloomy Peter about what he's endured during and since the explosion. Perhaps he can control the extent of his regeneration and chose not to heal fully?


Maybe Nikki said the scar looked sexy and so began their relationship. Good enough reason to keep it...


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## dimented (May 21, 2003)

VinceA said:


> Maybe Nikki said the scar looked sexy and so began their relationship. Good enough reason to keep it...


Maybe he pissed Nikki off and she put it there.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Royster said:


> This future is not Present Hiro's future.


That would be my "jackpot" theory, and what I'm running with, and if the writers can pull it off without it being too confusing, I'll give them a boatload of credit.

Diane


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## ccooperev (Apr 24, 2001)

Has anyone noticed that the scar looks like it might have been caused by a long blade???


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Regarding Peter's scar... maybe he got injured, but was unable to access his healing powers, like he was nerfed by the Haitian. So when his injury healed it scarred. So now the power (returned) thinks that scar is "normal" and doesn't want to correct it.

Or maybe he doesn't have the healing ability at all in the future, since he thinks Claire is dead, he has a hard time connecting to that power.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> There's nothing wrong with both Peter and Sylar having Ted's power. Peter doesn't have to kill to have the power so even though Peter has Ted's power, doesn't mean Sylar can't later kill Ted to get that power.


That answers my question and makes perfect sense.

I was ok with the idea of Parkman and the Haitian working for the government until it was revealed that Nathan was actually Sylar. Once it came out that President Petrelli was really Sylar all along, it made no sense for those two to even be alive.

Realistically, they have the powers most likely to expose Sylar for who he is and pose a continuing threat to him. They are also powers that Sylar would covet for himself. The ability to read minds and detect threats to himself and the ability to stop anyone else around him from using their powers against him ... especially with people like Peter and Hiro out there ... it just makes no sense to me that he wouldn't kill them and eat their brains.


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## Squeege96 (May 1, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Nope. No New York go bye-bye. I'll bet the farm on it.


Me Think You Talkem Good. 

While I agree that this ep didn't have a "clean" time travel progression, (like the Origninal Terminator movie) I didn't mind it. Things didn't change as soon as Future Hiro went back to see Peter because there is obviously more involved than just saving Claire. I suppose that another way to see it is by going back in time, Future Hiro started a brand new timeline with a whole new series of events. But in order for that progression to take place, there had to be his original timeline, almost as a starting point for all of the other events to build of off.

Speaking of which, having Claire show up was the one event that I just can't get my arms around. I see her being alive as the biggest flaw in the logic of the show. The only explanation that I can come up with is that Sylar did open up her head, left her for dead, and her body regenerated. (I am not too sure about this theory though.)

Anyways, l loved the image of Peter and Sylar facing off each other at the end of the show.

I have never looked so forward to Mondays!


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## Sromkie (Aug 15, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> Realistically, they have the powers most likely to expose Sylar for who he is and pose a continuing threat to him. They are also powers that Sylar would covet for himself. The ability to read minds and detect threats to himself and the ability to stop anyone else around him from using their powers against him ... especially with people like Peter and Hiro out there ... it just makes no sense to me that he wouldn't kill them and eat their brains.


That's a really good point that I hadn't thought of. Why hadn't he killed them? Quite strange.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jlb said:


> Heavy!


Why do you keep saying this? Is there something wrong with the atmosphere in the future? 

I know this is pretty obvious, but I haven't seen anyone mention it. When Current Hiro arrives in the future and is presented with the idea that he needs to go back and kill Sylar, he is repulsed and it's obvious that he doesn't have the make up to kill anyone. It's not until the end of the episode when he sees what's at stake and gets the copy of the final "9th Wonder" that he resolves to kill Sylar, even though he doesn't want to. That's why the final scene has him saying, "Now comes the hard part."


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Headline of Washington Post the next day:


"President Can Fly -- but his cure will keep him grounded"





I was hoping that Ando would take the blue/red fingerprint test, so we can see he has powers.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Squeege96 said:


> Speaking of which, having Claire show up was the one event that I just can't get my arms around. I see her being alive as the biggest flaw in the logic of the show. The only explanation that I can come up with is that Sylar did open up her head, left her for dead, and her body regenerated. (I am not too sure about this theory though.)


Why can't you get your arms around it? In this version of the future, Sylar didn't have regeneration powers because Claire had been saved by Peter. However, nobody knew that this was the case because everyone thought Sylar had been the bomb, when in reality it was Peter.


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

OK, here's a thought for all of you who like to pontificate on these things...

What if Peter was able to absorb the Haitian's powers?

What kind of implications would that have?


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

What I'd like to know is, Peter (at least 5 years ahead Peter) is more powerful than any of the other "heroes" Shouldn't HE go back in time and kill Syler, maybe in Mohinder's apartment?


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## Royster (May 24, 2002)

TonyTheTiger said:


> What if Peter was able to absorb the Haitian's powers?


Then he wouldn't have had much difficulty dealing with Sylar.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Squeege96 said:


> Speaking of which, having Claire show up was the one event that I just can't get my arms around. I see her being alive as the biggest flaw in the logic of the show. The only explanation that I can come up with is that Sylar did open up her head, left her for dead, and her body regenerated. (I am not too sure about this theory though.)


No, Sylar said he'd "been waiting years for this" (cutting off Claire's head), so he never caught her before.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

TonyTheTiger said:


> OK, here's a thought for all of you who like to pontificate on these things...
> 
> What if Peter was able to absorb the Haitian's powers?
> 
> What kind of implications would that have?


He can't...the Haitian's powers block other powers, so he would be unable to absorb when around the Haitian.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

hapdrastic said:


> He can't...the Haitian's powers block other powers, so he would be unable to absorb when around the Haitian.


But when Nathan Petrelli first met the Haitian, he was able to escape by flying away, which seems to indicate that the Haitian's power to prevent others from using their powers is not "alway on". So if Sylar has fooled the Haitian along with everyone else that he was the President, it would make sense that at some point over the last 5 years, the Haitian would have let his guard down, so to speak, to allow Sylar to kill him. But then again, maybe not - maybe Sylar's method of taking the powers, which seems to rely on the victim being alive, isn't fast enough to prevent the Haitian from realizing what's going on.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Sromkie said:


> That's a really good point that I hadn't thought of. Why hadn't he killed them? Quite strange.


He was farming out his Claire-finding duties to them while staying incognito.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

hapdrastic said:


> He can't...the Haitian's powers block other powers, so he would be unable to absorb when around the Haitian.


It's not a continuous effect though. F-Parkman is able to use his powers in the Hatian's presence/

P.S.: "The Hatian is down, The Hatian is down" has to be the funniest unintentionally funny line I've heard in a long long time.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Sromkie said:


> That's a really good point that I hadn't thought of. Why hadn't he killed them? Quite strange.


Because over the next 5 years Sylar will have had learned (time travel verb tenses are fun! Thank you Douglas Adams! ) to act strategically and look at the big picture perhaps?

Until Sylar is ready for his endgame, Parkman and the Hatian are far more useful to Sylar as strategic assets than they would be as mutant brain chow.


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## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

So how did Sylar pull Peter through the door? I guess Peter also has DL's powers? But why would he allow himself to be pulled through?


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

busyba said:


> Until Sylar is ready for his endgame, Parkman and the Hatian are far more useful to Sylar as strategic assets than they would be as mutant brain chow.


Right, that's what I was hinting at. Sylar was just laying low pretending to be Nathan. He couldn't regenerate so best to just settle for being the president for a while and being in control of those that would hunt down Claire for him. Once they brought Claire to him he probably felt pretty much invincible and when the fiasco with Hiro and Peter forced his hand he said "eff it" and decided to go all out.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

devdogaz said:


> Why do you keep saying this? Is there something wrong with the atmosphere in the future? .......


Not to nitpick, but wasn't it more like "Is there something wrong with earth's _gravitational_ force in the future"?

If Sylar has all the powers, could he not also grant a power to someone.....such as the chameleon effect? If so, how do we know F-Parkman and F-Haitian were actually Parkman and Haitian? Maybe Sylar has a group of deciples (sp?) working for him that are made to look like Parkman and Haitian.

While I agree that time travel makes for some confusing plot lines.....I was totally and completely entertained!


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

logic88 said:


> So how did Sylar pull Peter through the door? I guess Peter also has DL's powers? But why would he allow himself to be pulled through?


Sylar had DL's power.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

logic88 said:


> So how did Sylar pull Peter through the door? I guess Peter also has DL's powers? But why would he allow himself to be pulled through?


I think the phasing power affects anything that's being held by the one phasing. So Peter had no choice at that moment (though I don't remember the scene you're referring to).


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

NoThru22 said:


> The biggest plot hole in this episode was the fact that Future Hiro remembers stabbing Sylar and he regenerated even though in this timeline, Claire has been saved. How can they explain that?


[smeek]I believe it's already been explained -- the writers are using the BTTF time travel rules. When Marty gets back to the present everything has changed, but he still remembers how it used to be. "Mom, you're so ... thin!"[/smeek]

The biggest plot hole to me was Sylar pretending to be Nathan to millions of people watching TV; some of them even time-shifting on their TiVos.

Peter could have the scar for a number of different reasons. There are limits to the regenerative powers, we just don't know what those limits are. Someone had already thrown out a number of possible explanations: The Haitian's dampening powers, blowing yourself up into itty bitty pieces, etc.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Peter000 said:


> I think the phasing power affects anything that's being held by the one phasing. So Peter had no choice at that moment (though I don't remember the scene you're referring to).


The scene was where Sylar pulled Peter out into the hallway. Peter was in the room with Hiro and Sylar brought him out in the hall. Peter commented that his brother definitely couldn't do that and asked Sylar who exactly he was. At that point Sylar started looking like Sylar again and said "an old friend" or something like that.

The phasing power can definitely affect things held by the one phasing. We've seen DL pull Nikki/Jessica into a wall before. He came out of the wall from behind her, covered her mouth, and pulled them both back into the wall.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Gunnyman said:


> What I'd like to know is, Peter (at least 5 years ahead Peter) is more powerful than any of the other "heroes" Shouldn't HE go back in time and kill Syler, maybe in Mohinder's apartment?


Actually the best combo to kill Sylar would be a Haitian/Hiro team. Haitian mutes Sylar's powers and Hiro stabs him.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

stalemate said:


> The scene was where Sylar pulled Peter out into the hallway. Peter was in the room with Hiro and Sylar brought him out in the hall. Peter commented that his brother definitely couldn't do that and asked Sylar who exactly he was. At that point Sylar started looking like Sylar again and said "an old friend" or something like that.
> 
> The phasing power can definitely affect things held by the one phasing. We've seen DL pull Nikki/Jessica into a wall before. He came out of the wall from behind her, covered her mouth, and pulled them both back into the wall.


Ah yes. Thanks for refreshing my memory.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Shakhari said:


> That answers my question and makes perfect sense.
> 
> I was ok with the idea of Parkman and the Haitian working for the government until it was revealed that Nathan was actually Sylar. Once it came out that President Petrelli was really Sylar all along, it made no sense for those two to even be alive.
> 
> Realistically, they have the powers most likely to expose Sylar for who he is and pose a continuing threat to him. They are also powers that Sylar would covet for himself. The ability to read minds and detect threats to himself and the ability to stop anyone else around him from using their powers against him ... especially with people like Peter and Hiro out there ... it just makes no sense to me that he wouldn't kill them and eat their brains.


I think The Haitian could take him in a fair (no-powers) fight. And that's the only kind of fight he could have with TH.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

wprager said:


> The biggest plot hole to me was Sylar pretending to be Nathan to millions of people watching TV; some of them even time-shifting on their TiVos.


Apparently, in the future, the government will be able to replace time shifted video on TiVos with whatever they want.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

busyba said:


> Apparently, in the future, the government will be able to replace time shifted video on TiVos with whatever they want.


It has started!


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I just had to add, and I know someone already said this, but this series is going to be awesome on DVD. When it comes out, I'm going to have a weekend of me and Heroes.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> I think the phasing power affects anything that's being held by the one phasing. So Peter had no choice at that moment (though I don't remember the scene you're referring to).


Reasonable, considering it's network TV and we need an explanation why he doesn't become naked everytime he does that.


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

Since nobody else has even mentioned it, the worst part of the whole time travel thing is that once Future Hiro figured out who he thinks the bomb is, and knows that Sylar is evil, why doesn't he time-travel back in time and kill him before he gets his first power? 

Let's assume he can't actually kill Sylar for some reason otherwise he would have done it at some other time. He could go back and tell his present self to do it, or travel back to the time where Peter saves Claire. While there, he could stop time, talk to Peter and have Peter kill Sylar with ease while he's frozen in time. At that point Peter knows how evil Sylar is and would probably be apt to believe Future Hiro.

I really had fun watching the episode, but I honestly hope they kill off Hiro and stay away from the time travel stuff. I'll miss Hiro, but the show will be better for it.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

johnperkins21 said:


> I really had fun watching the episode, but I honestly hope they kill off Hiro and stay away from the time travel stuff. I'll miss Hiro, but the show will be better for it.


They don't need to kill off Hiro to do that. They've done a pretty good job of limiting Hiro's deus-ex-machina potential by making the time travel aspect of it mostly unstable.

If anyone has the potential to be too plot-bustingly powerful, it's Peter.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

busyba said:


> P.S.: "The Hatian is down, The Hatian is down" has to be the funniest unintentionally funny line I've heard in a long long time.


I call dibs on using it as a forum sig


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

jschuur said:


> I call dibs on using it as a forum sig
> 
> _"The Hatian is down, The Hatian is down!"_ - Evil Matt Parkman, ca. 2012.


Well, that leaves a version with the correct spelling available for someone.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jschuur said:


> I call dibs on using it as a forum sig


Are you mis-spelling it ironically? Or just mis-spelling it?

[edit] And Doug out-types me.

Reminds me of the old joke: What's the hardest thing about having AIDS? Convincing your parents that you're Haitian.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

dswallow said:


> Well, that leaves a version with the correct spelling available for someone.


I blame busyba for spelling wrong what I copy & pasted


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> The biggest plot hole to me was Sylar pretending to be Nathan to millions of people watching TV; some of them even time-shifting on their TiVos.


I don't get why people are having such a difficult time with this. Sylar has Candace's powers, and therefore he appears to be whoever he wants people to see. IMO, it's not a visual effect that tricks the people present, it's a physical transformation. For all intents and purposes, he IS Nathan when he wants to be, and this is why he appears that way on TV.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

devdogaz said:


> IMO, it's not a visual effect that tricks the people present, it's a physical transformation.


But as has been pointed out several times, we know that's not the case (the time she made people NOT see the body on the bed, e.g.)...

And didn't she have to take steps not to be seen on camera once?


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## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

stalemate said:


> The phasing power can definitely affect things held by the one phasing. We've seen DL pull Nikki/Jessica into a wall before. He came out of the wall from behind her, covered her mouth, and pulled them both back into the wall.


Ah, I didn't remember this scene.

Though if you're phasing, how do you hold on to anything?


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

If the Haitian is homeland security. Shouldn't he know that Nathan is Sylar? Or at least force Sylar to not become Nathan around him?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But as has been pointed out several times, we know that's not the case (the time she made people NOT see the body on the bed, e.g.)...
> 
> And didn't she have to take steps not to be seen on camera once?


I think people are placing way too much emphasis on this scene. IMO, it's not an either/or type power. I say she can do both, or whichever fits the needs of the situation.

Bottom line, there's no reason to get nitpicky about the special powers of the Heroes. They're all made up anyway, so whatever the writers/producers/directors/actors show us, we have to take at face value. If they say that Sylar can appear to be Nathan in person as well as on TV, then I have no problem with it.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

whitson77 said:


> If the Haitian is homeland security. Shouldn't he know that Nathan is Sylar? Or at least force Sylar to not become Nathan around him?


The Haitian knew about Nathan's flying power, so he wouldn't want to inhibit the President's ability to get our of harm's way in an emergency.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Okay, I really hate to do this to you all, but after 238 posts, no one has yet mentioned the complete time-travel issue. Everyone has forgotten the very first incident.

1) At least three times, Hero has definitively stated that messing with time can cause very, VERY bad things to happen, so he is forced to just nudge it a little. Him going back in time and killing Sylar would cause some cosmic event to happen. He has used the term twice at least but I can't remember it right now.

2) We have never seen the original time line, ever. It was replaced in episode two or three when Hero popped into the future, from his office in Japan, to the day after the election in Isaac's studio. In that timeline, Isaac had just been killed, and Nathan had just won the election the day before. Hero looks out the window and see the the explosion happen, and he returns to his present just before it reaches him. (He takes the comic featuring the Versa with him.) We know his actions have changed this future because in the current timeline Isaac is dead long before the election. This experience cements in Hero's mind his "hero's quest" to save the city.

3) When NY explodes, and Ando is killed, Hero risks the timeline and goes back to Peter and gives him a cryptic command that his analysis suggests should repair the damage. The cheerleader is saved, but that does not stop the bomb. Future Hero (I believe) has no direct knowledge of what happened in the alternate timeline because it was not HIS timeline. Since the bomb went off, he (naturally) assumes he was unsuccessful at saving the cheerleader. He seems genuinely surprised when he is told by present-Hero that the cheerleader WAS saved. He stabbed Sylar, but he regenerated. Sylar does not have that power now, but wait, present-Hero hasn't stabbed Sylar YET. He must go back and do that to make it right (or so future-Hero thinks).

4) Present Hero goes to the future in this episode, and returns. Everything changes again, and we are on yet another temporal line. Hero realizes that part of his quest must involve saving Ando, along with New York. He has another comic as a guide to his future actions.

Multiple timelines are hard to keep straight. Hero going into the future and then returning into the present to change the future is not as hard to fathom as future Hero coming into the past to change his present.

Claire is still plenty cute five years from now. She could do a lot better then that guy from the restaurant though.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But as has been pointed out several times, we know that's not the case (the time she made people NOT see the body on the bed, e.g.)...
> 
> And didn't she have to take steps not to be seen on camera once?


I just thought she covered Simone's body up with a sheet, honestly. Once the police saw that "Simone" was okay they never had a reason to come in and search. But I only watched that episode once, so I could very well be wrong. I just thought I remember seeing Simone's body laying on a table covered with a sheet or tarp.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Church AV Guy said:


> Claire is still plenty cute five years from now.


But no matter how far into the future Hiro goes, Hayden Panettiere is still only 16.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

stalemate said:


> But no matter how far into the future Hiro goes, Hayden Panettiere is still only 16.


Check your math... she's 18 (if you round up her actual age of ~17.69 ).


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

A couple thoughts--Peter seems to be learning to control his powers more all the time. It seems odd that he wouldn't be able to refrain from blowing up NYC. He's not a nut case like Ted. He surely didn't do it on purpose, so what could make this happen?

I just realized that the Haitian has 2 different powers--taking memories out of your head, and stopping people from using their powers. Both using the brain, but still pretty different. Does anyone else except Peter and Sylar have more than one? Does TH have other powers we don't know about?

I was assuming that Sylar hasn't been President very long at the beginning of this episode. Not the whole 5 years, surely. I can't imagine him having the patience to act in a half sane way for more than a week or so. That would explain Mohinder, Parkman, and the Haitian working with him. 

As far as we've seen, there haven't been any 2 people with the same power. (except Peter and Sylar) So do all these exponentially expanding heros all have unique powers? Hard to imagine what they might be.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

BrettStah said:


> Check your math... she's 18 (if you round up her actual age of ~17.69 ).


I'll allow it!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> As far as we've seen, there haven't been any 2 people with the same power. (except Peter and Sylar) So do all these exponentially expanding heros all have unique powers? Hard to imagine what they might be.


Yeah, we're gonna get some interesting stuff. It's just that it would be "borrowing" from other heroes.

Weather Control
Speed 
Able to communicate with sea life
Fabric manipulation
Super Grammar Skills
Power over Freon

Hmm... communicating with sea life is pretty useless. Scratch that one.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> I just realized that the Haitian has 2 different powers--taking memories out of your head, and stopping people from using their powers. Both using the brain, but still pretty different. Does anyone else except Peter and Sylar have more than one? Does TH have other powers we don't know about?


I see it as one power. He can make people forget memories permanently. He can also make people forget how to use their power, but only temporarily while he's in range.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Yeah, we're gonna get some interesting stuff. It's just that it would be "borrowing" from other heroes.
> 
> Weather Control
> Speed
> ...


I want power over freon. Much more useful than talking to fishies.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Gunnyman said:


> I want power over freon. Much more useful than talking to fishies.


Yeah, that'd be cool!


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## cyke93 (Jan 29, 2004)

People people.. i think we are all overthinking this whole time travel paradox.. "save the cheerleader, save the world" deal.. everyone is overlooking one of the most important thing to take away from this episode ... which is that even after 5 years time .. the haitian is still referred to as "the haitian" ! lolz


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

About Ted, if Claire dies, what happens to HRG. Either he quits, or he continues working.

Claire's death doesn't leave him angry at the company.

So either he's no longer working there, and Parkman doesn't confront him, and later go with Ted to his house, or when Parkman does confront him, and Ted & Parkman go to his house, Claire's not there to tranquilize Ted to stop him from blowing everything up.

So something major could happen right there in the old timeline.

But even if HRG and everybody survive that, HRG has no reason to disobey orders from his superiors about Claire, because Claire's already dead. 

So bottomline is, he doesn't start working with Parkman & Ted, and doesn't tell them to go to NY to destroy the tracking unit, so when/where would Peter/Sylar meet Ted to get his powers?

So it seems to me, that saving Claire gets HRG to protect Claire, which gets him locked up at Primatech with Ted & Matt, which then gets him to want to stop the company, which then leads him to help Ted & Matt (and himself) escape, and to permantly stop the company, sends Ted & Matt off to NY which will then put him in the same city as Peter & Sylar.

In the original timeline, I don't see where Ted comes in contact with Peter or Sylar.

-smak-


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

ccooperev said:


> I did find it curious that a "lowly" HomeLand Security agent would have direct access to the President... And that the President would take a cell phone call from said agent in the middle of a public speech...


Because I think he is head of homeland security.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

FreakyD said:


> I'd say Sylar's been President since whenever the Linderman Act was passed - his way of rounding up all the specials who would be a threat to him. With the planned genocide, there'd be literally no one on Earth who could stop Sylar.


I presume the "we round them up and keep tabs on them" speech Sylar gave Mohinder was a front for rounding them all up so Sylar can take their powers. That could explain how he got DL's power. Not that it would matter, but would Sylar really just kill them all without taking their powers first?


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## ccooperev (Apr 24, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> Because I think he is head of homeland security.


well, I realize its just a show but if its going to be plausible, there are many layers between staff and the President. There are very few people almost none that can directly call the President. Mostly, the Chief of Staff and the Presidents spouse. Maybe the Chair of Joint Chief of Staff (Military), the National Security adviser might have more ready access. The Homeland Security Secretary is a bureaucrat and is not likely to be carrying a gun and offing people. Everyone else would go through the Chief of Staff's office. But this is showbiz...


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

I think the point here is that "save the cheerleader, save the world" is wrong, because Hiro is mistaken as to who caused the NYC explosion. Nathan made an even worse mistake blaming Sylar for the explosion, as the heroes stop looking for him since they think he's dead. It's easy to work in secret when your opponents think you're dead. Saving Claire needn't save Nathan or illusion-girl, both of which Sylar can easily kill in order to install himself as President. Sylar doesn't know about illusion-girl yet, so I'm betting that at some point he gets access to the Company database, which is far more useful to him since, unlike Mohinder's, it says what their powers are allowing him to go after the highest-value targets first.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

devdogaz said:


> Why can't you get your arms around it? In this version of the future, Sylar didn't have regeneration powers because Claire had been saved by Peter. However, nobody knew that this was the case because everyone thought Sylar had been the bomb, when in reality it was Peter.





hapdrastic said:


> No, Sylar said he'd "been waiting years for this" (cutting off Claire's head), so he never caught her before.


Then why does Hiro remember stabbing Sylar? How did Sylar survive the stabbing in this version of the timeline? These things can be explained away, but they could just be the normal logic mistakes shows make when they do time travel. This show has always had a large number of plot holes, so why is this episode any different?

Why do people think this is some different future and not Hiro's future? This is no mirror universe. This is Hiro's (and everyone else's) future if they don't kill Sylar and also stop the bomb. I thought that was telegraphed very plainly by the show.


unicorngoddess said:


> I just thought she covered Simone's body up with a sheet, honestly. Once the police saw that "Simone" was okay they never had a reason to come in and search. But I only watched that episode once, so I could very well be wrong. I just thought I remember seeing Simone's body laying on a table covered with a sheet or tarp.


They had a shot with a clean, empty bed in the background and then Simone did her morphing thing and it was replaced by a blood covered bed with Simone's body.


tivogurl said:


> I think the point here is that "save the cheerleader, save the world" is wrong, because Hiro is mistaken as to who caused the NYC explosion.


The bomb having gone off is not the worst part of the future. Sylar as President is the thing that is threatening the world. Saving the cheerleader makes it possible to kill him by stabbing, so it's still correct. Then again, it was shown by this episode and the online comic that the whole Save the Cheerleader thing was just a hunch by Perfect Mind future Hiro.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> The bomb having gone off is not the worst part of the future. Sylar as President is the thing that is threatening the world. Saving the cheerleader makes it possible to kill him by stabbing, so it's still correct. Then again, it was shown by this episode and the online comic that the whole Save the Cheerleader thing was just a hunch by Perfect Mind future Hiro.


Can't agree with this. It was almost directly stated that Nathan began a course of action that turned the nation against the "heroes" before sylar even killed him. Nathan is the thing that is threatening the world. Or maybe more precisely, Linderman.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Church AV Guy said:


> Claire is still plenty cute five years from now.


She could use some eyebrow grooming lessons.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

laria said:


> She could use some eyebrow grooming lessons.


My wife said the same exact thing.

Me? It takes me a while to get to noticing eyebrows on a woman. Perhaps in season 3...


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

NoThru22 said:


> Then why does Hiro remember stabbing Sylar? How did Sylar survive the stabbing in this version of the timeline?


Sylar has killed Linderman, and absorbed his powers, which deal with bringing things that are dead/near-dead back to life. (That's just my guess).


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Okay, I've read all the posts (kind of) and I am amazed at all the confusion. (Except if you haven't been watching all season.) I thought it was pretty simple and straight forward. The only question I had was why Parkman didn't know that Sylar was the President but that can be explained away easily enough (we don't have to see every action) by saying Sylar ate a brain that helped him fake Parkman out.

Okay. Simple. This is a future that WILL NOT HAPPEN. F-Hiro is making sure of that. He had already gone back to tell Peter to "Save the cheerleader" so there is not a problem there. The future CAN be changed. Isaac was killed differently than the future showed (and the first comic book showed, too).

How did he know that Sylar needed to be killed? HE HAD THE COMIC BOOK!

I'm not going into the rest of it. They actually exposed what we needed to know to follow the story. Evidentally, those who have been watching (even just this episode) don't listen to dialogue or have short memories.

Does killing Sylar alone keep the world from blowing up. Maybe. Maybe not. Hiro is still saving the world cause Sylar doesn't become POTUS. That is enough to save the world. But I think it is enough. We will see. For one thing, I am convinced that Sylar is using Candice's power to look like Doctor Who in Peter's vision. Not quite sure how that causes Peter to blow up, but why else would the Doctor be laughing.

Now, Candice's power. Why does everyone assume she is a shape shifter or is affecting people's minds? If she is changing LIGHT then TV cameras (and Tivos) would pick it up. No need for President Sylar to control minds over space and time. It is just light. Just as a magician on TV doesn't hypnotise the world, he creates an illusion.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

laria said:


> She could use some eyebrow grooming lessons.


She plucks, but they grow back right away.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Now, Candice's power. Why does everyone assume she is a shape shifter or is affecting people's minds? If she is changing LIGHT then TV cameras (and Tivos) would pick it up. No need for President Sylar to control minds over space and time. It is just light. Just as a magician on TV doesn't hypnotise the world, he creates an illusion.


Light does not affect sound, and she has spoken in the same voice as the person she is pretending to be.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Light does not affect sound, and she has spoken in the same voice as the person she is pretending to be.


Fine, so she changes both light and sound.

No big deal.

Of course, everyone can try to find a way her power doesn't work but why? We are talking super powers here. Why do they have to be 100% logical or restrictive?

Gee, the Invisible Girl of the Fantastic Four can bend light and use light as a force field. Hmmm. Not clearly logical. But there it is.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Of course, everyone can try to find a way her power doesn't work but why? We are talking super powers here. Why do they have to be 100% logical or restrictive?


The people who write this show are big enough geeks that I'm sure they've worked it out. And I suspect that most of the people who are quibbling over what Sylar has been doing are not in the spirit of "They screwed it up," but "How is Sylar really doing it, since we haven't seen a way that would explain it?".

After all, this isn't Battlestar Galactica, when whenever they need something they just throw it in with no regard for what they've done before.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Love, love, love this show.

But how is this not X-Men?


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

ccooperev said:


> well, I realize its just a show but if its going to be plausible, there are many layers between staff and the President. There are very few people almost none that can directly call the President. Mostly, the Chief of Staff and the Presidents spouse. Maybe the Chair of Joint Chief of Staff (Military), the National Security adviser might have more ready access. The Homeland Security Secretary is a bureaucrat and is not likely to be carrying a gun and offing people. Everyone else would go through the Chief of Staff's office. But this is showbiz...


Don't forget Jack Bauer.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Its clear that future Hiro tried to stop the bomb, but was working with faulty information (that Sylar blew up, not Peter.) My biggest question is from last week: Isok  said he found the way to defeat Sylar: what was it? The comic which was given to the delivery guy? And if the future can be prevented, can't Sylar see that move now, and find a work-around?

Does someone have the scenes where Peter blows up? Aren't Simone and Isaac there? So already the future has changed: just not enough. I think Ted is the one who has to die, unfortunately.

Also, here's a theory why the Haitian is still alive: his power is useless to Sylar because, when he is damping peoples powers, there is nothing for him to steal. The Haitian can be used against his enemies, but its not a practical power for him to have if his goal is to steal other's powers.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Fine, so she changes both light and sound.
> 
> No big deal.
> 
> ...


My issue is, it matters how it works because otherwise she could be a lot more powerful than shown so far. If she can project light and sound in arbitrary forms, she is basically a walking holodeck and could be doing a LOT more than she is. It would be like superman only going and using his heat vision to boil water.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

I also forgot the plothole of Future Hiro and Peter thinking that DL and Candace are still alive in prison but Sylar has their powers. Sure, you can easily explain that he goes to these internment camps and kills them for their powers, but that's a pretty big leap to take without being told on screen. Sloppy writing (or possibly editing.)


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

DL and Candace were funelled through HRG's relocation program, not in prison, I thought.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> DL and Candace were funelled through HRG's relocation program, not in prison, I thought.


That would be an exceptionally bad plothole then!


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> That would be an exceptionally bad plothole then!


Not necessarily. HRG was playing both sides. It's entirely possible that F-Hiro thought that DL and Candace were being protected by HRG when in reality HRG handed them over to Homeland Security.

Remember, HRG told F-Hiro that he was going to find DL and the others for him, but instead he called Parkman to come ambush them.


----------



## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

HRG was protecting the "safe" people while funneling the "dangerous" ones to Matt. My guess is that he did turn DL and Candice in.

I thought it was fairly obvious that the Prez was using those captured by Homeland Security as his personal smorgasbord.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> As far as we've seen, there haven't been any 2 people with the same power. (except Peter and Sylar) So do all these exponentially expanding heros all have unique powers? Hard to imagine what they might be.


Taking a phrase from Xanth, many of the people with power could have "spot on the wall" variety powers. They have the ability to make a colored spot appear on the wall. Still a power, but not very useful.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> Taking a phrase from Xanth, many of the people with power could have "spot on the wall" variety powers. They have the ability to make a colored spot appear on the wall. Still a power, but not very useful.


Like this guy.


----------



## ScottE22 (Sep 19, 2003)

I, too, was troubled by the fact that DL and Candice were supposedly still alive and out there somewhere, yet Sylar had their powers. The writing on this show IMHO has been relatively tight so that's an awfully big "oops." I keep thinking there was more to it that I was somehow supposed to infer, but judging from some prior posts here it seems I'm not the only on in a quandary.

Oh, and AWESOME episode! What a payoff with Sylar being the Pres. I wonder what happened to the real Nathan Petrelli... I mean, we _know_ what happened to him, but where? When? How?


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ScottE22 said:


> I, too, was troubled by the fact that DL and Candice were supposedly still alive and out there somewhere, yet Sylar had their powers. The writing on this show IMHO has been relatively tight so that's an awfully big "oops." I keep thinking there was more to it that I was somehow supposed to infer, but judging from some prior posts here it seems I'm not the only on in a quandary.


I don't think it's ever been implied that two people will never have the same power/ability.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

alansh said:


> HRG was protecting the "safe" people while funneling the "dangerous" ones to Matt. My guess is that he did turn DL and Candice in.
> 
> I thought it was fairly obvious that the Prez was using those captured by Homeland Security as his personal smorgasbord.


But Sylar can't be "president" until he kills Candice...

Once Sylar kills her, then he can kill anybody else, no matter how locked up they are.

I think there's no doubt he would want to take Candice's & DL's powers, they seem pretty useful, but the question is how did he get to Candice.

-smak-


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Fine, so she changes both light and sound.
> 
> No big deal.
> 
> ...


Amen. Well said. It doesn't matter how it works. It just works. Accept it. Move on.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> Its clear that future Hiro tried to stop the bomb, but was working with faulty information (that Sylar blew up, not Peter.) My biggest question is from last week: Isok  said he found the way to defeat Sylar: what was it? The comic which was given to the delivery guy? And if the future can be prevented, can't Sylar see that move now, and find a work-around?


In this episode, didn't we only see what appeared to be a B&W photocopied version of the final edition of 9th Wonders? Maybe the final edition was never published, which is why Hiro didn't know what to do and was unsuccessful. Now that he has this edition of the comics from the future, he'll know what to do and will be able to follow Isaac's prophecies.

Everyone keeps saying that Future Hiro remembers stabbing Sylar. I don't remember him saying that, although I'm sure you guys will point out what I missed. It just makes much more sense if Hiro never tried to stab Sylar because he didn't know he was supposed to.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

devdogaz said:


> Everyone keeps saying that Future Hiro remembers stabbing Sylar. I don't remember him saying that, although I'm sure you guys will point out what I missed. It just makes much more sense if Hiro never tried to stab Sylar because he didn't know he was supposed to.


Future Hiro said something to Present Hiro like "I stabbed him but he regenerated, that is why I sent back the message for you to save the cheerleader."

I don't remember the exact quote so I paraphrased, but he definitely explained it to Present Hiro.


----------



## alpacaboy (Oct 29, 2004)

smak said:


> But Sylar can't be "president" until he kills Candice...
> Once Sylar kills her, then he can kill anybody else, no matter how locked up they are.


I thought it looked like Sylar was using shape shifting powers. I thought it looked like only he morphed, not the whole scene/world like when Candice un-illusions herself. Am I remembering this wrong? I figured he just killed some random shape shifter we haven't seen yet.

Who was Bennet's partner when he was going around saving people? I thought she was Candice, but I didn't take a good look.


----------



## ScottE22 (Sep 19, 2003)

dswallow said:


> I don't think it's ever been implied that two people will never have the same power/ability.


True. But they just seemed to make it so obvious that he was using those abilities the only assumption I could make was that they were from Candice and DL. Of course, I could be reading way too much into it...


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

alpacaboy said:


> Who was Bennet's partner when he was going around saving people? I thought she was Candice, but I didn't take a good look.


I'm pretty sure that was "Wireless," the girl that found Ted in the Nevada desert and can connect wirelessly without any electronic gadget. I don't remember her name.


----------



## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

devdogaz said:


> I'm pretty sure that was "Wireless," the girl that found Ted in the Nevada desert and can connect wirelessly without any electronic gadget. I don't remember her name.


Hannah Gittleman... it's back on page 3 or something.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

ScottE22 said:


> I, too, was troubled by the fact that DL and Candice were supposedly still alive and out there somewhere, yet Sylar had their powers. The writing on this show IMHO has been relatively tight so that's an awfully big "oops."


I don't know about DL but where was it said that Candace wasn't dead? Just before Nathan/Sylar killed Claire, he told her that "a girl named Candace helped him become President". I took that as a roundabout way of saying that he killed Candace, took her power, then was able to do the illusion that he was Nathan.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ccooperev said:


> well, I realize its just a show but if its going to be plausible, there are many layers between staff and the President. There are very few people almost none that can directly call the President. Mostly, the Chief of Staff and the Presidents spouse. Maybe the Chair of Joint Chief of Staff (Military), the National Security adviser might have more ready access. The Homeland Security Secretary is a bureaucrat and is not likely to be carrying a gun and offing people. Everyone else would go through the Chief of Staff's office. But this is showbiz...


I'm really not sure why this is even an issue: If you're President Sylar, with a singular mission of obtaining power from other Heroes, why wouldn't you want a direct line to the man you put in charge of finding those Heroes? And when you are told by that man that there are not one but TWO Heroes named Hiro running amok, wouldn't you make it a directive to your man (Parkman) to contact you immediately if something changes? Perfectly plausible.


----------



## srs5694 (Oct 14, 2001)

NoThru22 said:


> The biggest plot hole in this episode was the fact that Future Hiro remembers stabbing Sylar and he regenerated even though in this timeline, Claire has been saved. How can they explain that?


Future Hiro _remembers_ stabbing Sylar because Future Hiro is from _another_ timeline; Future Hiro has travelled back in time from another timeline (call it T1, in which Peter Petrelli was never warned to STC,STW), gave that warning, and then returned to an altered future (T2), but carried with him memories from T1. To be sure, not all time travel stories use this sort of logic concerning the memory of a time traveller, but many do.

The question of why Sylar is alive in this future is another one, but of course there are numerous possible explanations -- perhaps Present Hiro's travelling forward in time "took him out" of the timeline, so he couldn't kill Sylar (but this opens gaping holes in the plot because then he wouldn't be on Homeland Security's radar or known to people like Niki, since he wouldn't exist between the present and the time he reappeared); or maybe the changes Future Hiro introduced included something unknown that enables Sylar to escape or survive; or maybe Sylar had some other power all along that enables him to survive being stabbed; or whatever. It's possible we'll learn more in future episodes.



unicorngoddess said:


> I just had to add, and I know someone already said this, but this series is going to be awesome on DVD. When it comes out, I'm going to have a weekend of me and Heroes.


Any word on when this will come out on DVD? I hope it won't be too long after the end of the first season.



Church AV Guy said:


> At least three times, Hero has definitively stated that messing with time can cause very, VERY bad things to happen, so he is forced to just nudge it a little.


It is of course important that Hiro believes this, but we don't really know if it's true. Remember that Hiro's main source of information about such things is comic books, which aren't exactly known for their rigorous scientific standards.  To the best of our knowledge, he's never discussed the matter with physicists. It might be an amusing twist to discover at some point down the line that Hiro is quite wrong on this score. Of course, if he were wrong, that'd make his character much too powerful, so he'd probably have to be killed off soon thereafter.



TAsunder said:


> It was almost directly stated that Nathan began a course of action that turned the nation against the "heroes" before sylar even killed him.


You're probably thinking of a bit of dialog, I believe during the Sylar/Peter showdown, in which Sylar claims that Nathan had "turned against our kind" before Sylar had killed him. I don't recall any claim that Nathan had turned _the nation_ against anybody before Sylar killed Nathan. Given the events of the previous episode, it's even possible that Sylar kills Nathan before the election; his pact with Linderman, if Sylar knew about it, would justify the claim.



Philosofy said:


> Does someone have the scenes where Peter blows up? Aren't Simone and Isaac there? So already the future has changed: just not enough. I think Ted is the one who has to die, unfortunately.


The only scene in which we've seen an actual NYC nuclear explosion is from an early episode in which Hiro witnesses the devastation while in police custody. Isaac was already dead at that point, and Simone's status was unknown.

There's also Peter's vision, which I'm pretty sure included most of the cast to date, including Isaac and Simone; however, it hasn't been established to my satisfaction just what this vision was -- literal clairvoyance, figurative clairvoyance, the effects of indigestion, etc. Peter certainly interpreted it as literal clairvoyance, but that doesn't make it so, and so far we haven't seen anybody exhibit such a power (aside from Isaac, who could only paint the future but didn't seem to remember it), so it's unclear to me where Peter might have picked up such a power. (OTOH, maybe that's the power that his mother possesses.) What's more, there were oddities in Peter's vision that argue against it being literal clairvoyance, such as the fact that Claire was wearing her cheerleader outfit and Parkman was wearing his police uniform. These are unlikely clothing choices for running around in NYC just before the explosion. In other words, I wouldn't count on that scene as being 100% literal.



Jeeters said:


> I don't know about DL but where was it said that Candace wasn't dead?


There was a scene in which Future Hiro was rattling off a plan to break into the Homeland Security offices where Present Hiro was being held. He mentioned both DL and Candace as ways to help get inside. Given that Niki had recently turned down the suggestion that Peter participate, and given that Future Hiro had just asked HRG for the locations of several people, the likely explanation is that Future Hiro was planning to locate and use these actual people to get into the Homeland Security office; however, it's possible that by that point he was instead counting on Peter (who we'd have to assume would have absorbed their powers) to do it and he was referring to the powers by their original owners' names. Thus, it's a bit unclear, but my suspicion is that Future Hiro _believed_ they were alive. That's not to say they were alive, of course, just that Hiro believed they were.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I thought that he used Candice' power to become the pres, but perhaps later munched on another hero that does regular shape-shifting.



alpacaboy said:


> I thought it looked like Sylar was using shape shifting powers. I thought it looked like only he morphed, not the whole scene/world like when Candice un-illusions herself. Am I remembering this wrong? I figured he just killed some random shape shifter we haven't seen yet.


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

devdogaz said:


> In this episode, didn't we only see what appeared to be a B&W photocopied version of the final edition of 9th Wonders?


Looked to me like it was the original artwork, which we saw Isaac giving to a courier in the previous episode.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

Couple of things to add to the thread ...
1. It seems that Peter somehow met Claire's biological mother - assuming the fire power at the end was hers and not Ted's ...
2. I hope that in the next episode we'll see the actual fight - as the creators have done this before - show ending of previous episode from an alternate angle.
3. Is Nicki powerless now? Because if Jessica bit is merely suppressed, it should not stop Peter from absorbing that power and going psycho ...

And - I like the original title, 'String Theory' better - I think it fits. My TIVOs originally had it as that name, then the name changed - I wonder if the writers decided to make the title more in line with how the other episodes were named.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I always thought that the vision was not of real people - but instead of people he met, or those whose powers he absorbed ... though it makes little sense. Claude was a bitter man when we met him originally, so maybe he was just relieved to see everything go boom.



Big_Daddy said:


> The piece of the image that always confused me was how Claude was laughing during them.
> We'll see!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

srs5694 said:


> Any word on when this will come out on DVD? I hope it won't be too long after the end of the first season.


It's SOP these days to release a season set a month or so before the premiere of the next season...


----------



## Fraser+Dief (Nov 18, 2005)

ScottE22 said:


> I, too, was troubled by the fact that DL and Candice were supposedly still alive and out there somewhere, yet Sylar had their powers. The writing on this show IMHO has been relatively tight so that's an awfully big "oops."


There is no oops here. It's perfectly clear, though some have missed it. Everything was specifically said in the episode:

1) Hiro had brought DL and Candace to HRG for "protection". He says this later on when he asks to find out where they are.

2) HRG gave them up to Parkman, instead of protecting them. HRG says this to Parkman - We have a deal, I get the weak ones, you get the dangerous ones.

3) Parkman gave them up to Sylar/Prez, and he got their powers.

4) Hiro doesn't know about the Parkman/HRG deal, which is why he goes back and asks him where to find them. He doesn't know HRG is playing both sides, and is about to rat him out to Parkman.

You're supposed to think they're alive at first, before you realise that HRG is a double agent. Then, you realise they're dead.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Nope. No New York go bye-bye. I'll bet the farm on it.


Yup. I can't believe the speculation here that some think they're going to blow up NY. Hello, what's the name of the show?

Near Heroes? Almost Heroes? Ooh, we were *this* close to saving New York Heroes?


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

secondclaw said:


> Couple of things to add to the thread ...
> 1. It seems that Peter somehow met Claire's biological mother - assuming the fire power at the end was hers and not Ted's ...


I don't think there is anything at all to support that assumption.


----------



## slocko (Mar 5, 2004)

this has probablyh been discussed before in other threads, but what makes you guys think that syler has to eat people's brains to get their powers? i think he has the same ability as peter. he just needs to touch.

cutting their heads open is just a ritualistic act that most serial killers exhibit. some colllect body parts, some put the bodies in certain positions, etc.

at first i thought then why wouldn't he have peter's healing ability since he touched peter at the high school. but when he did, peter didn't have the ability yet. then in the apartment later on, after peter had the ability, he never touched peter either, he used his telekenisis ability on peter.

of course this means that syler can probably fly since peter already had that ability when they fell off the stadium edge. but it's possible that syler doesn't even realize he has that ability. we might see syler fly in a later episode with nathan still alive.

make sense?

about this episode, i viewed it as a throwaway episode. let's kill everyone because none of it matters. it's an alternate timeline with no bearing on the present one.

i don't think it advanced the plot too much, besides giving the comic to hiro.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> I don't think there is anything at all to support that assumption.


True, but since Nathan's Claire's dad, and Nathan becomes President, Claire's mom seems to be the type of gal to say something like, hey give me a tour of the White House Claire's baby daddy.

And even though we probably don't see that future again, i would hope they wouldn't just give Sylar random powers of some unknown heroes we've never seen.

I'm going to believe it was DL & Candice, and leave it at that.

-smak-


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

smak said:


> And even though we probably don't see that future again, i would hope they wouldn't just give Sylar random powers of some unknown heroes we've never seen.


For the purposes of the 5-years-in-the-future episode, that wouldn't bother me. They have gone out of their way to show or reference Sylar killing off people we've not really known too much about, and it's unlikely he stopped killing people for 5 years.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

slocko said:


> this has probablyh been discussed before in other threads, but what makes you guys think that syler has to eat people's brains to get their powers? i think he has the same ability as peter. he just needs to touch.
> 
> cutting their heads open is just a ritualistic act that most serial killers exhibit. some colllect body parts, some put the bodies in certain positions, etc.
> 
> ...


Ahem...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5112863&highlight=SYLAR#post5112863


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

secondclaw said:


> I always thought that the vision was not of real people - but instead of people he met, or those whose powers he absorbed ... though it makes little sense. Claude was a bitter man when we met him originally, so maybe he was just relieved to see everything go boom.


He hadn't met half the people in his vision when he had it. He only knew to pursue claude because he remembered claude from his vision.


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## Royster (May 24, 2002)

slocko said:


> this has probablyh been discussed before in other threads, but what makes you guys think that syler has to eat people's brains to get their powers? i think he has the same ability as peter. he just needs to touch.


If he just needed to touch, he wouldn't need to kill.

I do think that Sylar does have the same ability as Peter, but he learned to use it in a completely different way. Dr. Suresh said Sylar had the marker, but not an ability. It was Sylar who went out to try to find out how to use it.

At first, Peter could not consciously use the abilities he gained. He could only use them when his life was threatened. It took Claude's mentorship to teach him control of the powers.

Sylar, OTOH, has developed a ritual for himself which he believes infuses him with the powers. Since he was used to taking things apart as a watch repairer, he naturally tried taking someone's head apart. It is that ritual which gains him the power and the ability to use and (eventually) control it. Without the ritual, he doesn't know he has the power. He's like Peter before his training.

I suspect, but don't know, that we'll see parallels drawn out between Peter and Sylar in future episodes.

The possibility of Sylar eating brains was discussed on a fan podcast, The 9th, http://heroescast.com/ It appears to be a fan speculation.



Spoiler



But, one of the producers said in an interview that Sylar does eat the brains of his victims. The podcast co-host who promoted this theory boasted of this when the interview was published.


----------



## slocko (Mar 5, 2004)

he kills because he is a serial killer. i guess we will never find out if he really needs to kill to transfer the power. unless we seem him fly with nathan and peter still alive.



Royster said:


> If he just needed to touch, he wouldn't need to kill.
> 
> I do think that Sylar does have the same ability as Peter, but he learned to use it in a completely different way. Dr. Suresh said Sylar had the marker, but not an ability. It was Sylar who went out to try to find out how to use it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sromkie (Aug 15, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Can't agree with this. It was almost directly stated that Nathan began a course of action that turned the nation against the "heroes" before sylar even killed him. Nathan is the thing that is threatening the world. Or maybe more precisely, Linderman.


True, but Nathan isn't that big of a threat unless he can use the explosion in New York to rally the people of the world behind the idea that these powers can be a danger.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

busyba said:


> Not necessarily. HRG was playing both sides. It's entirely possible that F-Hiro thought that DL and Candace were being protected by HRG when in reality HRG handed them over to Homeland Security.


Yes necessarily. If you need to come up with some creative way to explain it, it's a plot hole. They show us A and C but no B. This show has always been filled with little ones, which is one of the reasons I didn't like it as much when I first started watching it. Once I stopped letting them bother me, my appreciation for the show grew much larger.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

It's not really that big of a leap. Sylar likes killing heroes. He killed a hero and took their powers unbeknownst to HRG.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> Yes necessarily. If you need to come up with some creative way to explain it, it's a plot hole. They show us A and C but no B. This show has always been filled with little ones, which is one of the reasons I didn't like it as much when I first started watching it. Once I stopped letting them bother me, my appreciation for the show grew much larger.


It's not a plot hole at all. It was pretty clearly explained in post #294 by Fraser+Dief.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

devdogaz said:


> It's not a plot hole at all. It was pretty clearly explained in post #294 by Fraser+Dief.


I agree. Most definatley not a plothole and I think it was meant to be pretty obvious once we realized Mr. Bennett was a double agent.


----------



## classicX (May 10, 2006)

May be smeeking but...

Here are a few things that we learned:

1) Peter can use more than one ability at a time.
2) Sylar can use more than one ability at a time.
3) Jessica can be vanquished.
4) Future Hiro mumbles a lot more.
5) The Haitian can indeed block powers.
6) Mohinder is still annoying in the future.
7) 22 year old Claire is hot.

Anything I missed?


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Any chance Sylar dies at Heroes hand this season? 

I say no way. Of course, if he does. We still have the whole Linderman/Eric Robert's camp to worry about. So it doesn't kill all the story lines. And you can create a super baddie whenever you want.


----------



## JustAllie (Jan 5, 2002)

classicX said:


> May be smeeking but...
> 
> Here are a few things that we learned:
> 
> ...


8) Future Hiro has terrible taste in facial hair.

Wait, we knew that already.


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

JustAllie said:


> 8) Future Hiro has terrible taste in facial hair.
> 
> Wait, we knew that already.


Most everyone who wears a soul patch on their chin has terrible taste in facial hair.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

devdogaz said:


> It's not a plot hole at all. It was pretty clearly explained in post #294 by Fraser+Dief.


That post has a plot hole. He can't have been president before he killed candace unless he found some other way to look like nathan. But he could have just been hanging around or spying and gotten her that way.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

whitson77 said:


> Any chance Sylar dies at Heroes hand this season?
> 
> I say no way. Of course, if he does. We still have the whole Linderman/Eric Robert's camp to worry about. So it doesn't kill all the story lines. And you can create a super baddie whenever you want.


Then there's also Mr. Sulu Nakamura.....


----------



## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

classicX said:


> May be smeeking but...
> 
> Here are a few things that we learned:
> 
> ...


When did we learn they could use more than one ability at a time? I don't recall them using two abilities simultaneously.


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

johnperkins21 said:


> When did we learn they could use more than one ability at a time? I don't recall them using two abilities simultaneously.


Peter: using extra power while invisible.
Sylar: Pulling Peter through the door whil maintaining the appearance of Nathan (in fact, anything he did while using chameleon power!).


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Peter: using extra power while invisible.
> Sylar: Pulling Peter through the door whil maintaining the appearance of Nathan (in fact, anything he did while using chameleon power!).


D'oh.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

johnperkins21 said:


> When did we learn they could use more than one ability at a time? I don't recall them using two abilities simultaneously.


Sylar still looked like Nathan when he flew, and when he stopped Claire and cut her head.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

wprager said:


> HF-Hiro brings Bennett a list of names. During the conversation he says something to the effect of "I don't want everybody, just the ones I brought to you" and then mentions some names (possibly the names in the list). I'm pretty sure one of the names mentioned is DL.


He mentioned three names. One I didn't recognize, but the other two (I'm pretty sure) were Candace and DL. Both powers were later displayed by Sylar (reaching through the door to grab Peter and the illusion casting for all those years).

Your post got me thinking though, and here's what I came up with:

Bennet has a "deal" with Parkman - he brings the dangerous ones to Parkman, and helps the harmless ones. Hiro brought those heroes to Bennet, who decided they were "dangerous." Probably based on DL's record and Candace turning him in to the company and wanting to torture him. Bennet turns them over to the president (Sylar), who wants to "meet" them.

Which could explain why he had their powers, except he would have had to have met Candace before taking Nathan's place... but as far as Sylar is concerned, that's a great way to get victims - have your hencemen bring them to you.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

"These guys are dangerous, let's leave them alone in a room with the president"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

whitson77 said:


> Any chance Sylar dies at Heroes hand this season?
> 
> I say no way. Of course, if he does. We still have the whole Linderman/Eric Robert's camp to worry about. So it doesn't kill all the story lines. And you can create a super baddie whenever you want.


The producers have said repeatedly that this season's story ENDS this season. Next season is a whole new story. So while Sylar could be a part of next season's story, there's no reason why he has to be, or even should be, unless they just want to bring him back.



Spoiler



They've also said that they were originally going to kill him at the end of this season, but they like the actor so much they changed their minds.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That being my point...he didn't have a chance to examine her living, powered brain, since by the time he got to it it was dead and all splattered against the wall.


Seems to me that this is why he has to cut their heads while they are still alive... maybe he paralyzes them, then pokes around in their brain until he finds the group of neurons that trigger the power, in which case they have to be alive in order to exhibit it, then somehow copy that to himself.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

classicX said:


> Seems to me that this is why he has to cut their heads while they are still alive... maybe he paralyzes them, then pokes around in their brain until he finds the group of neurons that trigger the power, in which case they have to be alive in order to exhibit it, then somehow copy that to himself.


Or just that they have to be alive for him to steal their powers, and the rest is just entertainment...


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## DPF (Mar 20, 2003)

classicX said:


> Seems to me that this is why he has to cut their heads while they are still alive... maybe he paralyzes them, then pokes around in their brain until he finds the group of neurons that trigger the power, in which case they have to be alive in order to exhibit it, then somehow copy that to himself.


Very reasonable. However, how did he get the telekinesis power originally which gave him the paralyzing as well as slicy-head-openy ability? Was it just a bludgeon to the head of the sloppy lookin' fella who had the telekinesis power or did he kill him? I can't recall exactly. It may have just been a pop to the head with something which I guess could be argued that he needs them at least barely or very recently alive.

-DPF


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I believe he had planned the brain slicing before he got his first stolen power, based on the book relating to brain stuff in his apartment.


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## TreborPugly (May 2, 2002)

I thought that Sylar's original ability was that he could look at something and just see how it worked. That's why he was an excellent clock maker/fixer. So if he looks at someone's brain, he sees how their power works, and because of the perfection of his understanding, he can now do what they do. It might not be that he needs to slice them open, but he might have thought that he did originally, since he opens up a clock or watch to see how it works. I thought he manually sliced open the first guy's head to see how he worked, and then, since he knew how it worked, got his power. I imagine that if he wanted to, he could simply perform brain surgery, see how they worked, then close them back up again.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

devdogaz said:


> It's not a plot hole at all. It was pretty clearly explained in post #294 by Fraser+Dief.


It *IS* if it has to be psuedo-explained on a message board outside of the show (and it might not even be the correct explanation)! That's why it's a plot-hole. It's a hole in the plot!!! A "plot" that contains "holes" missing information.


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

Concerning the Sylar/Peter rumble: I think Sylar was using a cold power. 

1.) His hands turned blue
2.) They were giving off that smokey steamy stuff like dry ice does.
3.) In I think the first Parkman episode, one of the victim of the brain snatcher is frozen at the kitchen table, in mid-bite, I believe.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Netflix has the Heroes DVDs listed, with the ability to put it in your "Save" list, though there is not yet any release date.

For some odd reason, the graphic they are using for it is Mohinder.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> Netflix has the Heroes DVDs listed, with the ability to put it in your "Save" list, though there is not yet any release date.


According to TVShowsOnDVD.com, it's 8/28, FWIW...


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> "These guys are dangerous, let's leave them alone in a room with the president"


Since it is really Sylar with the power of illusion and not Nathan, they could just be putting them in the room with any other inmate, or for that matter, a water heater in the corner.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

sean67854 said:


> Concerning the Sylar/Peter rumble: I think Sylar was using a cold power.
> 
> 1.) His hands turned blue
> 2.) They were giving off that smokey steamy stuff like dry ice does.
> 3.) In I think the first Parkman episode, one of the victim of the brain snatcher is frozen at the kitchen table, in mid-bite, I believe.


Correct on all counts. The Peter, in contrast, brings out the heat - which is totally feasible, since that's what Claire's mom could do. It's perfectly acceptable that he could've met her at some point in the past (future) five years.

He also could've been using the Sprague radiation, since he was the bomb.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Church AV Guy said:


> Since it is really Sylar with the power of illusion and not Nathan, they could just be putting them in the room with any other inmate, or for that matter, a water heater in the corner.


Doesn't explain how he got Candice's power in the first place...


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

Only that Peter's fire effect looked similar to Claire's bio-mom's effect. This could have been Ted's power - though Ted demonstrated cooler things that setting hands on fire - or the mother's.



JETarpon said:


> I don't think there is anything at all to support that assumption.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> It *IS* if it has to be psuedo-explained on a message board outside of the show (and it might not even be the correct explanation)! That's why it's a plot-hole. It's a hole in the plot!!! A "plot" that contains "holes" missing information.


I think we have a different definition of "plot hole". To me it means a leap in the plot, often one that doesn't really make sense, where no explanation is offered, implied, or alluded to.

I don't agree that this falls to that level, and I offer as proof the fact that many people (including me) all came to the same conclusion about Sylar, DL, Candice, Parkman, HRG, and their relationship and interactions based on what we saw and heard in the show. The discussion between HRG and Parkman about their "deal", combined with Sylar using DL and Candice's powers, was clearly meant to show that (a) those two are dead, and (b) how Sylar has been obtaining new powers, without a lot of tedious on-screen exposition.

Personally I'm glad the show doesn't bother to explain every detail of everything that happened over the last 5 years... that would be supremely boring. They give the broad brushstrokes and leave it to us to fill in the rest (or not, if we don't care).


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

classicX said:


> Doesn't explain how he got Candice's power in the first place...


Dude, for the 87th time in this thread, Sylar killed Candace. They didn't have to explicitly say it on screen. It was obvious when Sylar was using her powers.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

secondclaw said:


> Only that Peter's fire effect looked similar to Claire's bio-mom's effect. This could have been Ted's power - though Ted demonstrated cooler things that setting hands on fire - or the mother's.


Dude, cut it out with the top-posting.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

classicX said:


> Doesn't explain how he got Candice's power in the first place...


My guess is he killed her.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

madscientist said:


> I think we have a different definition of "plot hole". To me it means a leap in the plot, often one that doesn't really make sense, where no explanation is offered, implied, or alluded to.


Indeed--otherwise, any time we see a character leave home in the morning, it's a plot hole because we didn't see them change clothes.

This isn't a plot hole because, as has been seen in this thread, there are multiple possible solutions that have been offered within the show. And I am confident that if it matters which one is true, they will tell us. This show doesn't seem to cheat.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

devdogaz said:


> Dude, for the 87th time in this thread, Sylar killed Candace. They didn't have to explicitly say it on screen. It was obvious when Sylar was using her powers.


*sigh*

I meant... Sylar wouldn't have had her powers yet, to impersonate Nathan - which means he would have had to kill her before that. If Hiro brought Candace to HRG, and Sylar somehow got his hands on her _before_ he impersonated Nathan.

For someone keeping count, you sure don't seem to read every post either.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

classicX said:


> Bennet has a "deal" with Parkman - he brings the dangerous ones to Parkman, and helps the harmless ones. Hiro brought those heroes to Bennet, who decided they were "dangerous." Probably based on DL's record and Candace turning him in to the company and wanting to torture him. Bennet turns them over to the president (Sylar), who wants to "meet" them.


My take is more that the powers are dangerous to Sylar, not the people. And that Sylar wants that power. Maybe a combination.

Both would be able to sneak up on Sylar by coming at him from directions unknown, either by DL phasing through a wall surprising Sylar, or by Candice appearing to be somebody Sylar wouldn't care about.

On the other hand, Claire would have a power Sylar would want, but is not really a threat to him.

-smak-


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> It *IS* if it has to be psuedo-explained on a message board outside of the show


It doesn't *have* to be explained on a message board outside of the show.

It just has to be explained to you.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

classicX said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I meant... Sylar wouldn't have had her powers yet, to impersonate Nathan - which means he would have had to kill her before that. If Hiro brought Candace to HRG, and Sylar somehow got his hands on her _before_ he impersonated Nathan.
> 
> For someone keeping count, you sure don't seem to read every post either.


You totally lost me. I have no idea what you are saying.

Of course Sylar had to kill Candace prior to killing and impersonating Nathan. He couldn't do it otherwise. I don't get why there is any confusion. We don't know when Hiro brought Candace to HRG or when Sylar killed Nathan. It doesn't really matter. All that matters is that it happened sometime in the five years prior to this episode.


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## slocko (Mar 5, 2004)

it's only a plot hole if you assume that sylar was president when he stole the powers of candace. 

it's quite possible that sylar on his way to kill nathan, stumbled on dl and candace as they were being handed over to the president.

he kills all 3 and assumes the presidency.


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## slocko (Mar 5, 2004)

question. does anyone remember if the guy that liquified steel in the apartment had his head open when mohinder came over?

i know they showed the body when sylar was making tea, but i didn't pay attention. 

can someone chek?


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

We couldn't tell because of the tarp, but the amount of blood suggests it was his normal MO.

http://heroeswiki.com/Image:Zane_pwned.jpg


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

Nylar (nathan/sylar) did say when he was talking to Claire that he had met a nice girl named Candace who allowed him to become president. It's quite ambiguous as to whether that meant that it allowed him to take over for Nathan who was already president, or Nathan who was going to be president. 

Let's see here. F-Hiro told NRG that he had brought him Candace and DL. I believe that we are to assume that took place after the Linderman Act was in effect, which would in turn imply that Nathan was already president.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

The Linderman Act was passed in 2007. Assuming the elections in their fiction are the same as ours (and assuming he was actually elected), Nathan would not have been president until 2009.

(It's possible, but seems unlikely, that as a freshman in the House of Representatives he became Speaker, and then both the President and the Vice President were killed, I suppose)


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## srs5694 (Oct 14, 2001)

ping said:


> The Linderman Act was passed in 2007. Assuming the elections in their fiction are the same as ours (and assuming he was actually elected), Nathan would not have been president until 2009.
> 
> (It's possible, but seems unlikely, that as a freshman in the House of Representatives he became Speaker, and then both the President and the Vice President were killed, I suppose)


Linderman specified that Nathan would become Vice-President ("in the White House, a heartbeat away from the Presidency," or similar words, as I recall) through a series of unusual circumstances. I don't recall if Linderman ever explicitly said that Nathan would become President, although the implication was there, particularly in the painting. In any event, this suggests that Nathan's rise to President may have been similar to Gerald Ford's: The Veep leaves office (resigns, is impeached, or dies), the President appoints Nathan as the new Veep, and then the President leaves office. For all this to happen within a year of the election and explosion is a bit of a stretch, though, so I agree it's more likely that Nathan was elected to the Presidency (or obtained it via the Ford path) after the passage of the Linderman Act in 2007. A one-year Ford path is still possible, though, and seems more likely than a freshman Senator becoming Speaker and then the President and Vice President both leaving office.


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

I totally missed where it was mentions that the Linderman Act was passed in 2007. Or did it say something like "5 years ago"?


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

sean67854 said:


> I totally missed where it was mentions that the Linderman Act was passed in 2007.


That's because it didn't mention that at all.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

classicX said:


> That's because it didn't mention that at all.


This episode takes place five years after the explosion (which makes it November, 2011). The news report talks about the arrest of 200, making it the "most successful operation since the Linderman Act was passed four years ago." (therefore 2007).


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Here's my take on the whole Candice/Sylar confusion. 

Isn't it completely possible that Sylar meets Candice and takes her power BEFORE "Candice" is turned in to HRG. Candice's power can make her appear to be anybody and if Sylar finds out the "Dangerous ones" are being filtered through HRG, he could easily come up with a scheme to allow himself to be caught and filtered in with all the other "dangerous" heroes. Of course, he couldn't do this looking like himself because everyone assumes him to be dead, so why not take the form of the person you stole the power from to begin with. So, in the form of Candice he gets caught, along with DL and who knows who else. Then he kills them all and takes the power of every single "dangerous" hero that has been captured so far.


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## Sromkie (Aug 15, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> Here's my take on the whole Candice/Sylar confusion.
> 
> Isn't it completely possible that Sylar meets Candice and takes her power BEFORE "Candice" is turned in to HRG. Candice's power can make her appear to be anybody and if Sylar finds out the "Dangerous ones" are being filtered through HRG, he could easily come up with a scheme to allow himself to be caught and filtered in with all the other "dangerous" heroes. Of course, he couldn't do this looking like himself because everyone assumes him to be dead, so why not take the form of the person you stole the power from to begin with. So, in the form of Candice he gets caught, along with DL and who knows who else. Then he kills them all and takes the power of every single "dangerous" hero that has been captured so far.


Nice. I like it. :up: :up:


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Sromkie said:


> Nice. I like it. :up: :up:


Yes, that's a very elegant solution.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> Here's my take on the whole Candice/Sylar confusion.
> 
> Isn't it completely possible that Sylar meets Candice and takes her power BEFORE "Candice" is turned in to HRG. Candice's power can make her appear to be anybody and if Sylar finds out the "Dangerous ones" are being filtered through HRG, he could easily come up with a scheme to allow himself to be caught and filtered in with all the other "dangerous" heroes. Of course, he couldn't do this looking like himself because everyone assumes him to be dead, so why not take the form of the person you stole the power from to begin with. So, in the form of Candice he gets caught, along with DL and who knows who else. Then he kills them all and takes the power of every single "dangerous" hero that has been captured so far.


I like it all except for one thing. Didn't F-Hiro say that he brought Candice and DL in? If the Candice that he brought in was actually Sylar posing as Candice, how could Sylar have resisted killing Hiro at that point and taking the ability to freeze/bend time?


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

devdogaz said:


> I like it all except for one thing. Didn't F-Hiro say that he brought Candice and DL in? If the Candice that he brought in was actually Sylar posing as Candice, how could Sylar have resisted killing Hiro at that point and taking the ability to freeze/bend time?


Here is a better question. Why the hell would future Peter even start to go toe to toe with Sylar? Why not just freeze time and kill him?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Well, if I hadn't pored through this thread, I would be as confused as ever.
Now I'm only slightly less confused, but there is still an awful lot to digest.
Needs another watching this weekend.


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

Figaro said:


> Here is a better question. Why the hell would future Peter even start to go toe to toe with Sylar? Why not just freeze time and kill him?


Same reason present Peter didn't do it, to advance the plot with Sylar still a threat.


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## slocko (Mar 5, 2004)

and for that matter, why didn't hero also freeze time and cut off sylar's head after stabbing him in the 2nd timeline?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

How much control does Hiro have over other people/objects when he has stopped time?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

slocko said:


> and for that matter, why didn't hero also freeze time and cut off sylar's head after stabbing him in the 2nd timeline?


I would guess that Sylar retaliated and TK pushed Hiro away.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> How much control does Hiro have over other people/objects when he has stopped time?


Total.


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

Entertainment Weekly has some spoilers regarding the finale.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

alansh said:


> Entertainment Weekly has some spoilers regarding the finale.


A FIVE-page article?! I'm going to bed. I like reading spoilers, but that's just too much.


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## matt1288 (May 5, 2007)

I read a bit of that, quite good I learnt a bit more and understood the series better. Plus the people who say they can't watch another episode without understanding this one? Well heroes is like that you watch one, you don't understand and you watch the other then you understand. Then at the end of that episode you don't understand again. It's a huge cycle.

And in ep 20 , they said there was a possible NEW SYLER, who sucks oxygen out of everyone? That's crazy.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

dswallow said:


> A FIVE-page article?! [...] that's just too much.


How many pages is this thread?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

matt1288 said:


> And in ep 20 , they said...


Even by my lax standards, that's definitely spoiler-tag material.

Fortunately, the way you said it, it makes no sense, but still...


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

busyba said:


> How many pages is this thread?


For me, 10 right now. But I didn't read all 10 of those pages at once. I've been with the thread since the beginning... reading a handful of posts at a time, as they're posted.


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## slocko (Mar 5, 2004)

that's not a spoiler, he's referring to the last episode when nathan said their could be many sylars out there, and went on to mention a boy who sucks oxygen out of the air.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Even by my lax standards, that's definitely spoiler-tag material.
> 
> Fortunately, the way you said it, it makes no sense, but still...


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## matt1288 (May 5, 2007)

Yes that's what I meant, sorry for the cufusion.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Even by my lax standards, that's definitely spoiler-tag material.
> 
> Fortunately, the way you said it, it makes no sense, but still...


  How so? He said episode 20 and this thread is the episode 20 thread.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

appleye1 said:


> How so? He said episode 20 and this thread is the episode 20 thread.


It was just bad writing on his part. Not only was it difficult (well, impossible) for me to figure out what exactly he was saying, in context it looked like he was talking about what EW says is going to happen in Episode 20, not that he was changing the subject and talking himself about what had already happened in Episode 20 (and call me quirky, but I go by titles, not episode numbers--and it's not unusual these days for a season to consist of 20-22 episodes, which would place 20 in the future).

So I apologize for misunderstanding what he was saying--but he certainly did make it easy!


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## slocko (Mar 5, 2004)

okay rob, now go to your room and self flagellate for 30 mins


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It was just bad writing on his part. Not only was it difficult (well, impossible) for me to figure out what exactly he was saying, in context it looked like he was talking about what EW says is going to happen in Episode 20, not that he was changing the subject and talking himself about what had already happened in Episode 20 (and call me quirky, but I go by titles, not episode numbers--and it's not unusual these days for a season to consist of 20-22 episodes, which would place 20 in the future).
> 
> So I apologize for misunderstanding what he was saying--but he certainly did make it easy!


Oh OK, didn't mean to pile on. I was just trying to understand it all.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

slocko said:


> okay rob, now go to your room and self flagellate for 30 mins


That would be *Silas*.*



_* (Da Vinci Code reference)_


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## barbeedoll (Sep 26, 2005)

jking said:


> The future they were in was the future thread from AFTER Peter saved Claire. If they had gone 5 years into the future BEFORE the homecoming episode, they might well have been in a future where Claire was dead. At any rate, I took this episode to mean that the whole "Save the Cheerleader, Save the World" thing was just a theory of Future Hiro's, and not necessarily the solution they need to actually prevent the explosion.


My take was that by following the threads in the artist's studio, Future Hiro figured out a series of events where strings crossed (i.e., string theory) that had to be changed in the past in order to keep the New York explosion from happening.

First, Claire had to be saved so Peter could get her regenerative power. Then there were additional steps.

Peter knows he blew up New York, and was able to regenerate since he could gain powers (Claire's) without killing folks as Sylar must do, but wouldn't know whether Nathan died or not in the explosion.

Sylar was able to get his shape shifting power from the gal working with Eric Roberts, and assumed Nathan's role (killing him to get his power of flight).

I also wondered about the scar. If Peter can regenerate from the explosion, why can't he heal without a scar, just as Claire is able to do.

And if Claire could always regenerate, why the big rush to save her?

I did love that formerly bad Bennett was now good and in a pact with formerly good Matt.

Barbeedoll


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

barbeedoll said:


> And if Claire could always regenerate, why the big rush to save her?
> 
> Barbeedoll


Because she was about to be killed by Sylar, who would have cut off the top of her head and removed her brains, rendering her no longer able to regenerate.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

barbeedoll said:


> First, Claire had to be saved so Peter could get her regenerative power.


They were pretty clear that Future Hiro wanted Claire to be saves so that Sylar *couldn't* get her power and survive Hiro stabbing him with his sword. Not so that Peter *could* get her power. F-Hiro sent Peter because he thought Peter would be the most likely hero to be able to thwart Sylar.



barbeedoll said:


> Peter knows he blew up New York, and was able to regenerate since he could gain powers (Claire's) without killing folks as Sylar must do, but wouldn't know whether Nathan died or not in the explosion.


I don't think that Nathan has ever died in the explosion, or been suspected of dying in the explosion, in any timeline. He went on to become president, after all! Ando died in the explosion for sure, everyone _thought_ that Sylar did too, but he didn't.



barbeedoll said:


> I also wondered about the scar. If Peter can regenerate from the explosion, why can't he heal without a scar, just as Claire is able to do.


Heh. This has come up in just about every thread where Peter's scar is seen or described. The most reasonable explanation to me is that when he got that scar (we don't know how he got it, remember) he couldn't regenerate for some reason; maybe the Haitian, or else the "power blocking" capability that they seem to be able to imbue their prisons with.



barbeedoll said:


> And if Claire could always regenerate, why the big rush to save her?


We know that she can't _always_ regenerate. If her brain is compromised then she can't regenerate (stick in the brain, or, in Peter's case, glass shard in the brain). Presumably Sylar _eating_ her brain would also defeat her regenerative abilities.


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## nedthelab (Oct 4, 2002)

Finally got around to watching this ep. Very good - cant wait for tonight

My guess is Peter got the scar from Hiro some how (looks like a Samuri Sword slah to me) - why he could not heal - perhaps he lost that held capability??

Unfortunatley (as already discussed) the X-MEN take off is getting cloer and closer


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Thank the deity it's Monday! This thread and all questions about time travel and any perceived inaccuracies will hopefully be answered in less than 3 hours!


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

drew2k said:


> Thank the deity it's Monday! This thread and all questions about time travel and any perceived inaccuracies will hopefully be answered in less than 3 hours!


I hate to burst your bubble, but I just got a text message from Future Hiro, and he's seen the episode - it's apparently confusing the hell out of him too!


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## sakura panda (Apr 6, 2004)

BrettStah said:


> So, once future Hiro finds out that the cheerleader was saved, and therefore Sylar can be killed in the past, why doesn't he go back and do it, rather than try to send present-day Hiro back?


I finally watched this episode and I've only read to post #180 in this thread, so this is likely a smeek, but I wanted to put this thought down before I forget (I can't finish this thread in one sitting.)

About future Hiro going back and fixing things rather than sending "our" Hiro back -- hasn't it already been proven that Hiro can't change things from his past? So the future Hiro can't change things in his past, but the Hiro who has not experienced them yet may be able to.


----------

