# Why the TiVo S3/HD should be DLNA/UPnP Client Certified



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

*Why the TiVo S3/HD should be DLNA/UPnP Client Certified*

DLNA = Digital Living Network Alliance.

This Alliance allows for interoperbility between servers & clients no matter who the device/software is produced by.

A DLNA UPnP servers will serve out Video, Photos & Music along a certified spec.

DLNA UPnP clients will "Play" the Video, Photos &/or Music from DLNA UPnP servers.

Servers &/or Clients come in form of Hardware &/or Software.

Sony's Playstation 3 is a DLNA UPnP certfied client.

Most NAS (Networked Attached Storage) systems are now DLNA UPnP certfied. NAS systems today can be purchased for as little as $89 without drives. NAS devices can support anywhere from 1 hard drive to up to 16 hard drives. Some even support RAID 0, 1, 5, 6, & 10.

The use of a DLNA UPnP certified NAS along with a DLNA UPnP certified client (Such as the Playstation 3) allows for one to "STREAM" video, photos, & music WITHOUT the need for a computer of any type.

NAS servers are "Greener" (Use less electricity) than a computer, & are more "STABLE" & reliable then a computer. NAS devices crash 1:5,000 compared to a computer running _ANY_ version of windows.

So now you ask... sounds good... so why should a TiVO S3/HD support DLNA UPnP as a client?

Because *NO* computer would be needed. Saves on electricity & more stable then a computer running any version of windows. Keep in mind that TiVo Desktop does NOT currently run on a MAC or Linux. So don't even try to compare.

No TiVo Desktop would be needed. Other than to transfer a "Show" to your computer then to your NAS.

The S3/HD IF DLNA certified, would be able to "PLAY" the files (Music, Video, Photo) straight from the NAS.

The only drawback to using a DLNA UPnP Certified NAS is the Video file types are more limited than TiVo Desktop currently supports. If one has a Video in a file type not supported by DLNA, one would have to convert it first.

Although in all practicality, one should convert their files to MPG2 for a TiVo anyways. As TiVo Desktop &/or even pyTiVo still must convert it to MPG2 anyways. (Thus the slower transfer time than compared to a straight MPG2 file)

Last reason why.... Currently 95% of the "Affordable" NAS devices currently on the market are in fact allready DLNA UPnP certfied servers.

There are currently at least 15 DLNA UPnP certified clients on the market as well. Otherwise known as "Media Players". The Sony Playstation 3 is another.
The NEXT version of the Xbox 360 will also be a DLNA UPnP certified client.

One other point... TiVo being DLNA UPnP client certified would have no effect on cablelabs certification as well. Clients only play. They don't serve.

How many others would like to see TiVo be DLNA certified?

TGC

edit: For more information about DLNA... go to http://www.dlna.org

Oh and I am NOT suggesting that TiVo drop current pyTivo/TD+ support in favor of DLNA/UPnP.... Just to add DLNA/UPnP as well as current capabilities.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

You make me nostalgic.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290155


----------



## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Yep, my NAS (DNS-323) is not currently certified for DLNA... would be great if it was.


----------



## ZXTT95 (Oct 31, 2007)

TexasGrillChef said:


> NAS devices crash 1:5,000 compared to a computer running _ANY_ version of windows.


Is this something you made up or do you have some evidence?

*Edit:* I should add that I don't have a problem with NAS and any support that makes streaming easier is a good thing.


----------



## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

Unfortunately it will never happen. Tivo has no interest in developing features that are actually useful. They would rather give us Youtube videos.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

magnus said:


> Yep, my NAS (DNS-323) is not currently certified for DLNA... would be great if it was.


Get the Firmware/Bios update from Dlink. It is now DLNA certified, or they now claim.

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

ZXTT95 said:


> Is this something you made up or do you have some evidence?
> 
> *Edit:* I should add that I don't have a problem with NAS and any support that makes streaming easier is a good thing.


2 or 3 years ago when inexpensive NAS devices were coming to market for SOHO purposes. Cnet did an article about the reliability of it. I pulled from memory, and then cut in half. Just to be on the safe side. I believe they are claiming even a better reliability than I have claimed.

I do know this. I am having to reboot my windows machine at least 5 or 6 times a week.

I have 4 NAS devices. I haven't rebooted a single one in the last 6 months. Except for one NAS, which had SW/FW upgrade.

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

ciper said:


> Unfortunately it will never happen. Tivo has no interest in developing features that are actually useful. They would rather give us Youtube videos.


I believe once the demand is there they will. They *believe* their is a big demand for YouTube Videos.

TGC


----------



## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

TexasGrillChef said:


> I believe once the demand is there they will. They *believe* their is a big demand for YouTube Videos.


They also believe the demand is there for a free space indicator and M-Card support on the S3 but do not plan to do it. Second they believe QAM mapping has no demand even though everyone I've tried to sell a Tivo says "why can my TV see the channels but the Tivo can't (without a cable card)"


----------



## ilh (Dec 21, 2007)

TexasGrillChef said:


> do know this. I am having to reboot my windows machine at least 5 or 6 times a week.


Wow. My XP machine is up for 30+ days at a time, and then only reboots to install critical updates.


----------



## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

ilh said:


> Wow. My XP machine is up for 30+ days at a time, and then only reboots to install critical updates.


Obviously you aren't running the Tivo Desktop software 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=380236


----------



## ilh (Dec 21, 2007)

I am, but I turn off the server when I'm not using it.


----------



## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

ilh said:


> I am, but I turn off the server when I'm not using it.


Doesn't your statement sort of support the OP's point? He would like a stable interface on the Tivo that requires no user intervention, proprietary software or running PC.


----------



## ilh (Dec 21, 2007)

I was just commenting on XP rebooting several times a week. If it is due to TiVo Desktop, blame TiVo, not XP. 

I think it would be great to have NAS support for TiVos. I would love to have a remote RAID-1 or -5 box for reliable storage for my TiVo.


----------



## leeherman (Nov 5, 2007)

I have a Buffalo Terastation Live 2TB.

I use a Netgear EVA-8000 (which is DLNA/UPnP) to access music/photos/video on the Terastation.

I only keep an old PIII PC as a dedicated Tivo Server because Tivo can't access my NAS directly.

I would be THRILLED if DLNA/UPnP functionality could be added!

LH


----------



## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

I don't care about DLNA/PNP, I actually rather hate that technology. I would like it to mount SMB shares and stream 1080p h.264 video with AC3 audio. Also xvid and divx.

None of the poll options apply to me, so I didn't vote.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

ciper said:


> They also believe the demand is there for a free space indicator and M-Card support on the S3 but do not plan to do it. Second they believe QAM mapping has no demand even though everyone I've tried to sell a Tivo says "why can my TV see the channels but the Tivo can't (without a cable card)"


Hmmm I agree it would be nice for those features as well. IMHO though, I don't believe the PROFITABLE demand is there.

As we all know Money talks... BS walks...

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

ilh said:


> Wow. My XP machine is up for 30+ days at a time, and then only reboots to install critical updates.


Well I do have to admit... I am in alot of "Beta" test programs and "Beta" test alot of software...

TGC

P.S..... No I am not currently a Beta tester for TiVo. Wish I was though


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

ilh said:


> I was just commenting on XP rebooting several times a week. If it is due to TiVo Desktop, blame TiVo, not XP.
> 
> I think it would be great to have NAS support for TiVos. I would love to have a remote RAID-1 or -5 box for reliable storage for my TiVo.


I currently have several Raid 5 NAS devices, that serve to my TiVo. Just requires a Computer running pyTiVo &/or TD+ as the intermediary server.

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

rodalpho said:


> I don't care about DLNA/PNP, I actually rather hate that technology. I would like it to mount SMB shares and stream 1080p h.264 video with AC3 audio. Also xvid and divx.
> 
> None of the poll options apply to me, so I didn't vote.


Just curious, not trying to start an argument, or disagree with you. Wondering why you hat DLNA/PNP technology?

TGC


----------



## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

It requires a separate server on my desktop like tversity or windows media player, etc. All of them suck to various degrees. SMB mounts just plain work; share the folder and you're done. I played around with DLNA when I got my xbox360 and wasn't impressed. That's why I have a HTPC running XBMC for linux now.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> As we all know Money talks... BS walks...
> 
> TGC


Except where TiVo is concerned all too often BS talks and money walks...right out the door. 

Unfortunately, I see TiVo strategically positioned in the middle of the desert on all this. Too bad; they could have been leading edge innovators again like 9 years ago.


----------



## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

TiVo isn't interested in innovation. They're still small, because they've never been particularly successful, but they're no longer agile.

My S3 is essentially identical to my old 14 hour S1. MRV aside (I don't use it) the core featureset and even the interface is identical. It never ceases to amaze me that over the past 9 years nobody has overtaken TiVo. Nobody _else_ is innovating either!


----------



## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

rodalpho said:


> TiVo isn't interested in innovation. They're still small, because they've never been particularly successful, but they're no longer agile.
> My S3 is essentially identical to my old 14 hour S1. MRV aside (I don't use it) the core featureset and even the interface is identical.


Tivo used to be a bunch of geeks. Now they are ruled by a bunch of suits
Tivo of 98 "I bet we can use linux to make a smart replacement for the VCR"
Tivo of 2008 "Which feature will generate an additional revenue stream"

They aren't even trying to add features that draw new customers. I strongly feel that QAM mapping would create many additional customers. There are plenty of people who pay for basic cable and watch the free digital stations with their generic digital television.


----------



## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

rodalpho said:


> It requires a separate server on my desktop like tversity or windows media player, etc. All of them suck to various degrees. SMB mounts just plain work; share the folder and you're done. I played around with DLNA when I got my xbox360 and wasn't impressed. That's why I have a HTPC running XBMC for linux now.


+1


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

rodalpho said:


> It requires a separate server on my desktop like tversity or windows media player, etc. All of them suck to various degrees. SMB mounts just plain work; share the folder and you're done. I played around with DLNA when I got my xbox360 and wasn't impressed. That's why I have a HTPC running XBMC for linux now.


The main point of DLNA/UPnP is NOT to have a computer, or "ANY" software on a computer at all.

The whole reason for a DLNA UPnP certified NAS device.

I *TOO *don't want to have a "Computer" running "ANY" software, pyTiVo, TD+, Tversity, or any other peice of server software. So I am with you 100% on that front. I don't even want to "serve" out or "share" folders on my desktop computer. Rather just use my computers as a "Client" only system. One of the main but many reasons for NAS devices.

I have 4 NAS devices. 4 Different brands. 2 of them have SMB capability. The other 2 do not. The ones that don't of course cost less then $150. The 2 that do of couse were well over $300 not including Hard drives.

I like the idea of both, & you do make a good point. SMB mounting would be easier. Only problem is, it isn't the LOW COST affordable standard.

Betamax was better than VHS. But it WASN'T cheaper. Betamax lost.

One other interesting note. My more expensive NAS devices have open source coding with "Plug-in" support. THEORETCALLY speaking, someone COULD rewrite pyTiVo &/or TD+ to run directly on the NAS device as well.

The odds of anyone doing so probably won't happen though.

TGC

NAS devices still use less energy then a HTPC & are stll more reliable.


----------



## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

Whereever did you find a NAS without SMB support? Do you have that old weird linksys NAS, NSLU-something, with their own wacky implementation of iSCSI that only works on windows?

Anyway, yes, of course supporting a standard like DLNA would be better than tivo's proprietary solution. And I have no problems with DLNA itself; it's a fine standard, supporting metadata, indexing, etc. It's the implementations that are lacking. That's why I prefer plain ol' SMB.


----------



## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

Because Tivo takes so darn long to copy any xvid/divx files from my PC/NAS, I am forced to keep my DLINK DSM-520 hooked up to satisfy my need to immediately begin watching things. Tivo either needs to support streaming from media servers like Twonky/TVersity/etc or *significantly* speed up the copying (TTCB) so I can start watching right away. I'm not sure what causes it to be so slow. If it's the conversion to .TIVO, there should be a way to have Tivo Desktop batch process new files it sees.


----------



## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

BrianAZ said:


> Because Tivo takes so darn long to copy any xvid/divx files from my PC/NAS, I am forced to keep my DLINK DSM-520 hooked up to satisfy my need to immediately begin watching things. Tivo either needs to support streaming from media servers like Twonky/TVersity/etc or *significantly* speed up the copying (TTCB) so I can start watching right away. I'm not sure what causes it to be so slow. If it's the conversion to .TIVO, there should be a way to have Tivo Desktop batch process new files it sees.


Your TiVo cannot play an Xvid/DivX file, it needs MPEG-2. That means you need a device to do the conversion. Currently that would be pyTiVo or TiVo desktop running on a PC. Your D-Link DSM-520 has a dedicated playback chip in it that can recognize those file types directly. No NAS has the horsepower to do an on the fly conversion to MPEG-2, and none have dedicated chips that can do so either.

Twonky sends the xvid or divx stream unmodified to the playback device, which must have the smarts or processing power to play it. All Series 2 TiVos simply do not have the smarts for anything other than MPEG-2. The TiVo Series 3 and HD TiVo have a chip that can handle MP4 and H.264, (but not necessarily xvid and divx), but it isn't active yet. When it is, things like this may become possible.

If a DLNA server was set up to serve only MPEG-2 your TiVo and my S2 could have been made to work with it, but what a nightmare that would be. Can you imagine all the support phone calls and posts here with "why can my DSM520 play my divx files but my TiVo can't"? Such a feature would be a total flop. Until the TiVo hardware can do everything your DSM can, it just isn't in the cards.

Don't rule this out for future TiVo hardware though, if it makes sense, it could happen.

Concerning your speed issues, if you pre-convert all the files to MPEG-2, they will transfer quickly and play immediately. Your computer will not slow them down because it won't have to convert them on the fly. Alternatively, you can even get quick transfers and immediate playback if your computer has plenty of horsepower to do the conversions. Of course, if you restrict yourself to only using MPEG-2 pyTiVo will even work directly on the NAS, although it is still slow on older NASes. Running pyTiVo on my Linkstation serves MPEG-2 video fairly slowly, but I bet a Terastation or HP Media Vault 2 could do it faster than realtime. So NAS solutions are getting closer to reality now, without needing DLNA. It just depends what you are willing to experiment with.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

rodalpho said:


> Whereever did you find a NAS without SMB support? Do you have that old weird linksys NAS, NSLU-something, with their own wacky implementation of iSCSI that only works on windows?
> 
> Anyway, yes, of course supporting a standard like DLNA would be better than tivo's proprietary solution. And I have no problems with DLNA itself; it's a fine standard, supporting metadata, indexing, etc. It's the implementations that are lacking. That's why I prefer plain ol' SMB.


Alot of the lower end cost units don't have SMB support. The Lower end Buffalo units don't. While the higher end Buffalo units do.

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

BrianAZ said:


> Because Tivo takes so darn long to copy any xvid/divx files from my PC/NAS, I am forced to keep my DLINK DSM-520 hooked up to satisfy my need to immediately begin watching things. Tivo either needs to support streaming from media servers like Twonky/TVersity/etc or *significantly* speed up the copying (TTCB) so I can start watching right away. I'm not sure what causes it to be so slow. If it's the conversion to .TIVO, there should be a way to have Tivo Desktop batch process new files it sees.


The *REASON *why it takes so darn long to copy xvid/divx files from Pc/NAS to the TiVo, is because the TiVo itself doesn't support those file types. The Broadcom chip only has MPG2/MPG4 capability. Even then current TiVo 9.3a software doesn't support the MPG4 capability of that chip yet. Therefore. TiVo Desktop/pyTiVo has to *CONVERT *(Transcode) xvid/Divx to MPG2 FIRST... That my freind is what *SLOWS* the transfer down.

Any Video I wish to *keep *that is in any file format other than MPG2, I convert _FIRST _with another program (that does a better job). Then when I want to watch it. I transfer the MPG2 version.

MPG2 files (SD and HD) transfer faster then "real time", at least on my system.

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

CuriousMark said:


> If a DLNA server was set up to serve only MPEG-2 your TiVo and my S2 could have been made to work with it, but what a nightmare that would be. Can you imagine all the support phone calls and posts here with "why can my DSM520 play my divx files but my TiVo can't"? Such a feature would be a total flop. Until the TiVo hardware can do everything your DSM can, it just isn't in the cards.
> .


DLNA UPnP certified servers are setup to serve MPG2, MPG4, video files specifically. Some NAS devices may support more video file types, but to get DLNA UPnP certification the item must support direct streaming of at least those file types. xvid/Divx is currently not a DLNA required file type, neither are WMV/WMV-HD. One of my NAS devices even supports iTunes, while another doesn't. Yet both are DLNA certified. I even have another DLNA NAS that even can download directly from Bittorrent and serve to bittorrent software & bittorrent devices.



CuriousMark said:


> Don't rule this out for future TiVo hardware though, if it makes sense, it could happen.
> 
> Concerning your speed issues, if you pre-convert all the files to MPEG-2, they will transfer quickly and play immediately. Your computer will not slow them down because it won't have to convert them on the fly. Alternatively, you can even get quick transfers and immediate playback if your computer has plenty of horsepower to do the conversions. Of course, if you restrict yourself to only using MPEG-2 pyTiVo will even work directly on the NAS, although it is still slow on older NASes. Running pyTiVo on my Linkstation serves MPEG-2 video fairly slowly, but I bet a Terastation or HP Media Vault 2 could do it faster than realtime. So NAS solutions are getting closer to reality now, without needing DLNA. It just depends what you are willing to experiment with.


There are alot of differences in NAS devices currently on the market. Some still have 100mpbs networking. Most now have gigabit. Some even have RAID capability. Some NAS devices have faster CPU's then other NAS devices as well.

The older linkstations are much slower then the newer linkstations. The newer units also have newer faster CPU's as well.

For more information about DLNA... go to http://www.dlna.org

TGC


----------



## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

TexasGrillChef said:


> DLNA UPnP certified servers are setup to serve MPG2, MPG4, video files specifically. Some NAS devices may support more video file types, but to get DLNA UPnP certification the item must support direct streaming of at least those file types. xvid/Divx is currently not a DLNA required file type, neither are WMV/WMV-HD. One of my NAS devices even supports iTunes, while another doesn't. Yet both are DLNA certified. I even have another DLNA NAS that even can download directly from Bittorrent and serve to bittorrent software & bittorrent devices.


So once MPEG-4 gets turned on in the S3 platform TiVos, they could add DLNA support and get qualified, but until then it is a non-starter.

You could add pyTiVo to one of those NAS boxes of yours and it would probably work pretty well for your TiVo right now, at least for pre-converted video.



TexasGrillChef said:


> There are alot of differences in NAS devices currently on the market. Some still have 100mpbs networking. Most now have gigabit. Some even have RAID capability. Some NAS devices have faster CPU's then other NAS devices as well.
> 
> The older linkstations are much slower then the newer linkstations. The newer units also have newer faster CPU's as well.
> 
> For more information about DLNA... go to http://www.dlna.org


There are some good comparison charts on NASes at smallnetbuilder.com and information on hacking them is available at NAS-Central.org.

Thanks for the DLNA link.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

CuriousMark said:


> So once MPEG-4 gets turned on in the S3 platform TiVos, they could add DLNA support and get qualified, but until then it is a non-starter.


Yes they could, they would have to make a few other changes as well, but it would be a start



CuriousMark said:


> You could add pyTiVo to one of those NAS boxes of yours and it would probably work pretty well for your TiVo right now, at least for pre-converted video.


I wish I could. I don't write software, but it is possible. pyTiVo won't run as is now though on a NAS.



CuriousMark said:


> There are some good comparison charts on NASes at smallnetbuilder.com and information on hacking them is available at NAS-Central.org.
> 
> Thanks for the DLNA link.


Well, thanks for the comparison charts for NAS devices. :up:

TGC


----------



## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

TexasGrillChef said:


> I wish I could. I don't write software, but it is possible. pyTiVo won't run as is now though on a NAS.


I have pyTivo running pretty much as is on my linkstation (well kurobox really). It does require some effort, but how-to articles are starting to appear, so it should get easier fairly soon. What I can't do is use the conversion features. They try to run, but are simply too slow to be useful. If you can get to the NASes command line, you should be able to do it too.


----------



## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Any Video I wish to *keep *that is in any file format other than MPG2, I convert _FIRST _with another program (that does a better job). Then when I want to watch it. I transfer the MPG2 version.
> 
> MPG2 files (SD and HD) transfer faster then "real time", at least on my system.





CuriousMark said:


> Concerning your speed issues, if you pre-convert all the files to MPEG-2, they will transfer quickly and play immediately. Your computer will not slow them down because it won't have to convert them on the fly. Alternatively, you can even get quick transfers and immediate playback if your computer has plenty of horsepower to do the conversions. Of course, if you restrict yourself to only using MPEG-2 pyTiVo will even work directly on the NAS, although it is still slow on older NASes. Running pyTiVo on my Linkstation serves MPEG-2 video fairly slowly, but I bet a Terastation or HP Media Vault 2 could do it faster than realtime. So NAS solutions are getting closer to reality now, without needing DLNA. It just depends what you are willing to experiment with.


Thanks.. this pre-converting sounds like what I was hoping would eventually be a feature in Tivo Desktop. Perhaps it would constantly be converting any files in certain folders in the background so when you happened to want to transfer them, they'd already be in MPEG-2. Since Tivo Desktop doesn't offer this, can you suggest any software which would allow me to automate this process for multiple "input" file types? Thinking I'd d/l the divx/xvid/mk4 to a "preprocessing" folder which is being watched by this conversion tool. The tools sees that I've added a new file and gets to converting it right away, dropping it into the Tivo Desktop folder when complete. I'd like it to be completely a hands-off process.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

CuriousMark said:


> I have pyTivo running pretty much as is on my linkstation (well kurobox really). It does require some effort, but how-to articles are starting to appear, so it should get easier fairly soon. What I can't do is use the conversion features. They try to run, but are simply too slow to be useful. If you can get to the NASes command line, you should be able to do it too.


Thanks I will check into that. I am currently using 4 NAS devices. I have 5. But the 5th one is without any hard drives & is not currently in use. I also convert _ALL_ video files I have or get into MPG2 if they are not allready in that format.

I have 2 Promise NS4300's and 2 Linkstation Lives (Single drive) and 1 HP MediaVault (older version).

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

BrianAZ said:


> Thanks.. this pre-converting sounds like what I was hoping would eventually be a feature in Tivo Desktop. Perhaps it would constantly be converting any files in certain folders in the background so when you happened to want to transfer them, they'd already be in MPEG-2. Since Tivo Desktop doesn't offer this, can you suggest any software which would allow me to automate this process for multiple "input" file types? Thinking I'd d/l the divx/xvid/mk4 to a "preprocessing" folder which is being watched by this conversion tool. The tools sees that I've added a new file and gets to converting it right away, dropping it into the Tivo Desktop folder when complete. I'd like it to be completely a hands-off process.


At least for me. There *doesn't* seem to be *ONE* perfect program. I have several and will use each one differently based on my needs.

*Ulead VideoStudio 11 plus with free HD add in pack*. Runs about $99 depending on where you go. Does a great job of transcoding (coverting) and gives you the choice to choose any soundtrack & lets you keep your closed captioning. It will maintain DD5.1 and will convert DTS 6.1 to DD5.1 as well. It doesn't have batch conversion though. The Video quality is emaculate though. Very good conversion quality.

*Roxio Easy Media Creator 10.* Works wonders, has batch conversion capability. (Within certain limits). Maintains DD5.1 sound. However DOES NOT pass the Closed Captioning stream along. So if you want or need CC, Roxio will not work. The Video quality is emaculate though. Very good conversion quality.

*Corel DVD Copy 6 Plus... *Is very easy to use. Has batch processing. However you will LOSE DD5.1 sound. It converts ALL audio to a "Stereo" stream. Absolutely NO dd5.1 with this program. If you have a bunch of old video that is in stereo, OR YouTube video, or even Home video. This program will do just fine. The Video quality is emaculate though. Very good conversion quality.

*Nero Ultra 8*, with free HD pack. Does a good job too. I haven't played around with it much because I don't like the user interface as well. To cumbersome for me. Others like it. The Quality is good enough. I don't know if it does batch conversion or not, or if it maintains the Closed captioning. It will maintain DD5.1 sound though.

Adobe Premeir 4. Seems to do a good job from what I have heard. I don't know much else about it though.

There are also alot of "Free" programs out there as well. I do believe you get what you pay for.

TGC


----------



## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

I haven't actually tried any of the commercial programs, but I've heard that TVersity is better than any of them. And TVersity isn't very good.


----------



## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

rodalpho said:


> I haven't actually tried any of the commercial programs, but I've heard that TVersity is better than any of them. And TVersity isn't very good.


TVersity is a media server that transcodes on the fly. I'm looking for some tools which will transcode files dropped into a directory it's watching. Someone on another thread suggested something called "Super". I'll give that a try in addition to the ones above.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

rodalpho said:


> I haven't actually tried any of the commercial programs, but I've heard that TVersity is better than any of them. And TVersity isn't very good.


Is or isn't? LOL

Well I wouldn't know about TVersity. I do know about the commercial ones. They aren't to bad. Like I said though. No one program is perfect for me. I use several depending on my needs.

TGC


----------



## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Yep, the DNS-323 works great with the PS3 but it would be even better for it to work on Tivo.



TexasGrillChef said:


> Get the Firmware/Bios update from Dlink. It is now DLNA certified, or they now claim.
> 
> TGC


----------



## westside_guy (Mar 13, 2005)

I love an poll that only allows you to answer in a way that supports the pollster's bias.


----------



## bakerja (Sep 3, 2008)

Curious about this. I'm currently using a dlink dns-343 and PS3. It works wonderfully. Sure would love to see my TIVO HD with DLNA capability.


----------



## Human Bean (Jan 17, 2008)

"Certified" anything tends to cost money, at least for the cert test, possibly with an additional royalty for each unit sold. I have no idea about the costs of DLNA/UPnP certification, but don't think it's worth it if it raises the cost of TiVos.

Certainly THX certification sounds way cool, but for whatever reason, they decided they didn't need that anymore...


----------



## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

I HATE DLNA.

Sorry, I have to say it.

I have enough DLNA clients - my PS3, my Xbox360, my A/V receiver, my iPhone and a few DLNA servers - Vuze, my DNS-323 NAS box, and my Terastation Live. PS3 sees all the servers, but only my Terastation Live works - the other two keep popping in and out so often it gets annoying, fast. Xbox360 only sees my D-Link, but it doesn't work at all. A/V receiver sees none. iPhone sees both my Terastation and D-Link.

I've had equal fun with XBMC as well as a client.

The big problem I have is all this incompatibility, mostly due to the way DLNA came about. First was Microsoft's Windows Media Connect, then a bunch done by Japanese manufacturers to come up with a way to stream media. Both evolved (they both use UPnP), and eventually, merged. I believe version 3 was when they merged, and thus having a third incompatible version. 

Just annoying, from my experience. About the only server I have that can reliably be used is my Terastation - all my other DLNA servers are erratic or doesn't work. Even my Terastation doesn't always work... my A/V receiver sees no server at all.


----------



## bakerja (Sep 3, 2008)

Interesting...I too had multiple problems with past DLNA servers. Pretty much wrote it all off until I got the dlink nas. It works quite well with my PS3. I have just finished digitizing 19 years of home movies through a Hauppauge HD PVR. These files play wonderfully on the PS3 across the network but I would prefer to play them on the TIVO since it is the "box of choice" in my entertainment center. I have tried "streambaby" but it involves an additional encode step that I want to avoid. I have all of the files in a "home movies" folder on the NAS and PS3 navigation works quite well and the quality is excellant.

Maybe the incompatabilities are what keeps TIVO development from implementing DLNA? More headaches than they want.

JAB


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

The problem most people are having with the DLNA UPnP compatabilities comes about because of the different evolving versions. As well as everyone wanting to "Improve" on it by adding their own "extras" to it.

However, there is a certification that is required if they want to market their device as DLNA certified.

I have a Promise NAS and sometimes my Xbox sees it and sometimes it doesn't. The Promise NAS also runs "Firefly" and when my friend brings over his Apple TV it sees it with no problem. As well as any of my computers running iTunes.

DLNA still has along way to go to be "perfect", even I will admit that. But it's at least a start in the right direction to develope a standard that all devices should live by.

TGC


----------



## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

i Don't know about this other stuff so much, but I think the mistake was for TiVo not to become the standard itself - in essence - by either doing it or adopting a mix of other protocols from majors like microsoft and implementing a really good product with them long ago.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

It should be noted that the new retail Moxi DVR has this functionality, with at least the ability to be a client of the PlayOn server, giving access to the stuff that you can get to from there (most importantly, Hulu ).


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> NAS devices still use less energy then a HTPC & are stll more reliable.


If you are talking a conventional desktop cpu system yes, but there are much better alturnatives with regard to power consumption. I use and old 1.2GHz panasonic laptop running xp and 2 1tb green drives in external enclosures. The laptop uses 9, yes 9 watts in standby or basic file serving. 22 when ffmpeg is transcoding. The drives use 7 watts each. Thats a total of 25watts continuous run power for a 2tb server. There is better hardware than that in blade servers today but far more expensive.

I looked at using an NAS device for a media server and deciced an old $150 laptop and new drives was a better choice as it much easier to configure, can do so much more.

PCs dont have to consume 600watts continuous anymore.

Neither choice is 'wrong' just different choices for different reasons but power need not be one of them.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

hmmm

wonder how the poll would go if instead of the bad choice
"No... I want my TiVo to require special HW/SW to work. "


it was instead worded as
No... I want my TiVo to to avoid the compatibility issues of various DLNA implementations and instead like the way it works now using 3rd party stuff like pyTiVo."


maybe unintended but as it stands the poll is far from unbiased in its choices and it seems a small percentage saw what the use special HW/SW actually meant. Unsurprisingly many voted for getting another feature that would hold out the promise of alternative storage methods and/or added content like Hulu.

Myself I voted for "Huh, I still do not ..." which many might have passed over as sounding like they themselves had a lack, but I saw it as denoting that DLNA is not all there on one standard yet.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> hmmm
> 
> wonder how the poll would go if instead of the bad choice
> "No... I want my TiVo to require special HW/SW to work. "
> ...


I had thought about doing it that way.... however...

1. pyTiVo doesn't provide *ALL* of the capabilities of even the average DLNA server. (Compatability issues asside). Don't get me wrong. I love pyTiVo and am using it now. pyTiVo does easily have the option of adding more features & capabilities quicker and faster than the DLNA group provides.

2. pyTiVo will run on *SOME* NAS devices. However it isn't something for the "Average" consumer to do. It isn't "True" Plug n Play. It's not coming allready *"INSTALLED"* on any NAS devices ready to run. Even* THIS *option has* COMPATABILITY* issues that you complain of with the DLNA option.

My honest intention was in fact to be UNBIASED. I consider the use of pyTiVo / TiVo Desktop (+) software as being part of the "Special HW/SW" group. I was viewing that option as any hardware/software that was *dedicated* for use *ONLY *with the TiVo. pyTiVo works with the TiVo, but doesn't work with the ps3, Xbox, Blu-ray networked devices, Networked TV devices, etc...

I also was *trying* to ignore the *ISSUE* of the compatibility problems that are currently plagueing DLNA. The reason for this, is that *EVERYTHING* has *SOME* form of compatibility issues with it. TiVO, pyTiVo etc... all have compatibility issues of some sort. pyTiVo *WON'T* play *EVERY* audio/video/photo format available. Neither will the TiVo. pyTiVo from what I understand (I could be wrong here) doesn't run on a MAC. The list goes on...

I beleive once the "ISSUES" with DLNA compatibility have been fixed, that it has the greatest chance of becoming a *Consumer* level option. pyTiVo is a great option, but isn't considered something for the "AVERAGE" consumer to make use of.

The first option of "Huh I still" was meant to be just what it sounded like. I know there are people out there that have absolutely no idea what DLNA is or anything about it.

DLNA currently while *ISN'T* the perfect solution because it is still have "issues". Yet pyTiVo/TiVo desktop is *NOT* the perfect solution either.

To me the I*DEAL* solution would be *ONE *software program that can run on either a NAS &/or Computer that can *FEED* media (Video/Music/Photos) to ANY networked device. Regardless of what the "player" is, or who it is made by. This software would come pre-installed on a *CONSUMER* level NAS device &/or be available on a *CONSUMER* level for install on a MAC/PC.

IE... I would have *ONE* program running either on a NAS &/or computer & my Networked TV, Networked Blu-ray player, XBox, PS/3, TiVo, Popcorn, Slingcatcher, etc would play the media from that NAS/Computer.

DLNA has the *POTENTIAL* (Once the issues have been resolved) of becoming the *CONSUMER* level standard/certification that could work with many different Consumer level electronic devices by many different competing electronics companies.

TGC


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

BrianAZ said:


> Because Tivo takes so darn long to copy any xvid/divx files from my PC/NAS, I am forced to keep my DLINK DSM-520 hooked up to satisfy my need to immediately begin watching things. Tivo either needs to support streaming from media servers like Twonky/TVersity/etc or *significantly* speed up the copying (TTCB) so I can start watching right away. I'm not sure what causes it to be so slow. If it's the conversion to .TIVO, there should be a way to have Tivo Desktop batch process new files it sees.


Note compatible MPEG-4 (MP4) and VC1AP (WMV) files do transfer much faster -- up to *three times* the speed of MPEG-2 files -- when you "push" or stream.

See the "View Computer Videos" link in my signature for more information and a video demo.


----------



## MeStinkBAD (Jul 16, 2003)

Tivo uses Bonjour, which is perfectly capable of doing everything that DLNA does. It's freely available, Anyhow DLNA is a lost cause. And this is not a discussion about DLNA but TiVo support for NAS. Not DLNA.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

MeStinkBAD said:


> Tivo uses Bonjour, which is perfectly capable of doing everything that DLNA does. It's freely available, Anyhow DLNA is a lost cause. And this is not a discussion about DLNA but TiVo support for NAS. Not DLNA.


Actually I would beg to differ on that.

Now the discussion might have diverted itself from the original topic at hand, or proposed. But It's still about DLNA.

*My original discussion/poll was to see how many people were interested in their TiVo's supporting the DLNA standard as a DLNA client.* TiVo allready supports SOME NAS devices. At least those that you can succesfully install pyTiVo on.

Currently, as far as I am aware (I could be wrong), Current DLNA servers are currently limited to NAS devices. I have yet to find any DLNA server software to run on a computer. There are some DLNA devices that act both as a DLNA client (Player) as well as a DLNA server.

I have heard that TiVo makes use of Bonjour. Yet TiVo has of yet to take full advantage of all the Bonjour has to offer. I do have a NAS device that has full Bonjour serving capabilities. IT works great with any computer running iTunes & any APPLE TV. (I have a freind who brought his apple TV over to test it, I don't have an apple TV). Now if TiVo could access a Bonjour server that would be fantastic.

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

*Hello to all that have responded so far & even to those who have followed this thread & voted but have not responded...*

*I wish to thank you for taking the time to respond as well as vote.*

*My original discussion/poll was to see how many people were interested in their TiVo's supporting the DLNA standard as a DLNA client.*

_I realize now that some see this as being biased. My original intention was not to have this be biased._

Option...

1. My original intent was that people who did not understand what DLNA was or did not have any idea was to what it was designed to do to choose this option.

2. Obviously (hopefully) for those who desired their TiVo have DLNA Client/server certification capabilities.

3. This option was intended for those who wanted *ANY OTHER OPTION* other than full support of the DLNA certification standard. This could include anything that the TiVo currently supports &/or works with, as well as any other possible standards/options. Including but not limted to Bonjour, pyTiVo, TD(+), PlayOn, Twonky, etc..

4. Obviously (Hopefully) for anyone who doesn't really care about the options to transfer media (Video, Music, photos) *to &/or from *the TiVo. In other words anyone who doesn't use or care about MRV/TTCB, TTG etc...

I knew from the very beggining before posting this poll/thread that there were many many *OTHER ALTERNATIVES* to the DLNA standard option.

Add these options to my poll would have made the poll to long as well as I am sure I would have left out OTHER options as well.

Is DLNA the best solution for media transfer to the TiVo? Probably not. I am sure their is a BETTER alternative out there somewhere.

Here are my requirements for a BETTER alternative to DLNA.

1. Consumer level availability, ease of use & ease of cost. Mass availability.

2. Multi-Platform. Works on a various number of devices in client/player mode.
Example... works on.. my networked attached TV, Network Blu-ray player, XBox, Popcorn, PS3, Networked DD/DTS Surround receiver/amp, Slingcatcher.

3. Standard available for *ALL* Consumer level electronics companies to use. Not a standard stuck with just any one CE company. Like any other standard used in CE devices. Like HDMI, or CD's, or DVD's, or even.... ANALOG RCA audio video jacks!

4. The standard needs to support most if not all the major media (Video, Music, Photo)formats.

The whole idea behind the idea of having a DLNA type standard of some sort is to allow the *ONE* box design in your home entertainment center, or at least minimize the number of boxes one has.

One shouldn't need to have to have 2 or 3 boxes in their entertainment center to play all of their media thats stored on a computer &/or NAS.

I have a networked TV, Networked Blu-ray, XBox, TiVo, & Slingcatcher (As well as a slingbox pro-hd). *Each will play networked media that NONE of the other devices will play!*

If everything followed one standard on the network. Then it wouldn't matter WHICH device I used to play that networked media.

Similar to NETFLIX.... I can watch my NETFLIX on my Tivo, Blu-Ray, or XBOX! The advantage of this is, if one box FAILS (Breaks) I still have a way to watch my netflix!

Again... maybe DLNA isn't the perfect solution, although I haven't found any other to be an ideal solution either.

Thanks everyone for your input and for your voting! I have enjoyed hearing everyone's thoughts.

TGC


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> DLNA has the *POTENTIAL* (Once the issues have been resolved) of becoming the *CONSUMER* level standard/certification that could work with many different Consumer level electronic devices by many different competing electronics companies.
> 
> TGC


Ahh, now I see your point. Had not thought of it that way as a goal. I agree this sort of utopia version of media client/server stadard would be truly a great thing. But do you think the content providers would stand by and let it happen without mucking it up with DRM?


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jcthorne said:


> Ahh, now I see your point. Had not thought of it that way as a goal. I agree this sort of utopia version of media client/server stadard would be truly a great thing. But do you think the content providers would stand by and let it happen without mucking it up with DRM?


the copyright police already have his location information 

and yes, of course I want all media to play on my TiVo but yet not be limited to just the TiVo if something else cool comes along. Heck - I would like to just pack my Nintendo Wii for vacations and have access to all the media at home. I do not see DLNA solving that.

now marketing a NAS device that is plug and play with some simple configuration steps - that would appeal to me but note that I already have large drives in my TiVo DVRs and 1 TB drive in my office PC that serves up movies to my TiVo DVRs no hassles.

Now my pain point is ripping the DVDs and then using videoRedo to make a TiVo compatible mpeg2 that transfers smoothly. The pain is not great - just some manual steps I have to do. Come up with something that pull in media simply by pointing to it or telling it to say pull down criminal intent from any TiVo but keep only copy of each show - then you have something. Make it strip out commercials and you can probably name your price. Of course the above runs afoul of some DMCA issues and copyright laws perhaps but that is what I would truly want to make what I have now better.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

jcthorne said:


> Ahh, now I see your point. Had not thought of it that way as a goal. I agree this sort of utopia version of media client/server stadard would be truly a great thing. But do you think the content providers would stand by and let it happen without mucking it up with DRM?


Maybe.... Maybe not...

*Picture content*. Not so much. Except on a proffesional level. 99.999% of all photos that most people want to view & see are taken by themselvs, freinds &/or relatives.

*Music content.* I don't think would present much of a problem. There are allready dozens of music server/clients in use today. One example is the "SONOS SYSTEM". Logitech also has a server/client system very similar to the Sonos. There are many other companies as well providing working music server/clients. Even iTunes/Bonjour is working as a server/client. My NAS runs Bonjour and serves music to an Apple TV or any computer running iTunes. The list goes on....

*Video Content* being mucked up! Absolutely... the MPAA is fighting anything & everything like this tooth & nail! DVD's, Blu-ray's, HD-DVD's (Yes I know it's dead), all have some form of DRM being used. Although it has been broken and you can easily copy it now. Although there *ARE* allready working video server/clients being succesfully used today. Slingbox/Slingcatcher, even the TiVo/pyTiVo/TD(+) is in some forms a server/client system. Popcorn hour, iTunes/Bonjour with apple TV, Twonky, and a few others as well.

I am not saying that this Utopia goal will be easy. Far from it. DLNA is a *START* in the *RIGHT* direction. Yet obviously even they are having *ISSUES* just getting the system to work with everyone!

I do beleive that someday in the future this goal will be realized. Who the winner will be as a standard, I would at this not even be willing to render a guess. Could even be something that no one has even thought of yet!

TGC

P.S. TiVo... look at the poll! Over 83% would like DLNA capability!


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the copyright police already have his location information
> 
> and yes, of course I want all media to play on my TiVo but yet not be limited to just the TiVo if something else cool comes along. Heck - I would like to just pack my Nintendo Wii for vacations and have access to all the media at home. I do not see DLNA solving that.
> 
> ...


First thing I would say... is everyone has different needs, values and desires whens it comes to using their CE devices as well as their Media.

As far as watching my content when I am *NOT* at home? The slingbox PRO-HD & Slingcatcher, software work just fine for me! I also have a cable modem with VPN capability. So accessing my media that I have on my NAS devices is easily available to me over the internet. No need for DLNA.

As far as DVD's go. I use 2 programs. One working in the background to remove the DRM. A couple of quick mouse clicks and it pulls the movie OFF the DVD in MPG2 format and saves it to my dedicated NAS for Movies. Quick and easy. Blu-ray rips are currently *ALOT* more tedius and a PITA to do, but if it's a good enough movie, it's worth it. DLNA would have offer no solution for this area of ripping DVD's &/or Blu-rays. Where it would be bennifical is *AFTER *you have ripped your movie. It would allow for easier transfer to *MORE* devices etc...

TGC


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TexasGrillChef said:


> First thing I would say... is everyone has different needs, values and desires whens it comes to using their CE devices as well as their Media.


understood - I was just putting out there my ideal NAS device that had a DVD player that would let me put in a DVD and then rip it to the NAS device. DMCA would make selling such a device fairly tough though, but it is what I would really want.
Of course it needs to be able to work with my TiVo DVRs in my case. I guess DLNA or some other universal protocol would be a significant first step.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> understood - I was just putting out there my ideal NAS device that had a DVD player that would let me put in a DVD and then rip it to the NAS device. DMCA would make selling such a device fairly tough though, but it is what I would really want.
> Of course it needs to be able to work with my TiVo DVRs in my case. I guess DLNA or some other universal protocol would be a significant first step.


Well it isn't really called a NAS device. However there is a media server/client based system that supports DVD's *AND* Blu-ray.

You have a client device that has a DVD/Blu-ray player built in. Then you have the media server stuck in a closet or other remote location in your house.

The Client player will play your DVD/Blu-rays directly, or it will *RIP* them and transfer them to the media server. The player will then also have the option of playing the media on your server as well as any of the DVD/Blu-rays that you ripped to your media server.

Advantages to this system... Ease of use, the user interface is extremely cool as it will show album cover artwork, as well as the movie poster for the DVD/Blu-ray's that you ripped to your system.

Drawback.... is its another box in your home entertainment system to go along with your TiVo, PS3, Xbox, Wii, etc...

Another Drawback... the Player's run about $2000 and the media server runs from $3,000 and up depending on how much *STORAGE* you get. The 20TB media server runs about $15,000 to $20,000.

Check it out at: http://axonix.com

Obviously this system* isn't *for the average home consumer.

TGC


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Obviously this system* isn't *for the average home consumer.
> 
> TGC


exactly - I do not need to spend another 2,000 to serve DVD movies around my house. I have TiVo DVRs that I bought for recording cable as well at each TV and I have a PC that I can add drives to and rip the DVDs to the PC drive very cheaply if a little manually. So I did indeed spend 2,000 already but my media "system" is spread out and multi-functional.

so for 2 or 3 hundred dollars - an appliance might catch my eye but anything more and the value simply does not match the price for me. Now if I win the lottery then my price to value ratio will change significantly.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> exactly - I do not need to spend another 2,000 to serve DVD movies around my house. I have TiVo DVRs that I bought for recording cable as well at each TV and I have a PC that I can add drives to and rip the DVDs to the PC drive very cheaply if a little manually. So I did indeed spend 2,000 already but my media "system" is spread out and multi-functional.
> 
> so for 2 or 3 hundred dollars - an appliance might catch my eye but anything more and the value simply does not match the price for me. Now if I win the lottery then my price to value ratio will change significantly.


Absolutely why I like the DLNA standard system. *IF* course they can fix all the issues that plague DLNA.

TGC


----------



## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

FWIW, the SageTV HD Theater (slim hardware client for the Sagetv PVR software) can play back movies from blu-ray images.

F



TexasGrillChef said:


> Well it isn't really called a NAS device. However there is a media server/client based system that supports DVD's *AND* Blu-ray.
> 
> You have a client device that has a DVD/Blu-ray player built in. Then you have the media server stuck in a closet or other remote location in your house.
> 
> ...


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

fyodor said:


> FWIW, the SageTV HD Theater (slim hardware client for the Sagetv PVR software) can play back movies from blu-ray images.
> 
> F


Oh there are lots of ways to playback "Rips" of Blu-ray. Even the Popcorn hour can do that.

So can the TiVo, although it is quite a tedius and painfull process to get it to work sometimes. Much easier when the video format of the Blu-ray is MPG2 which is not very common anymore. Most Blu-ray's video content is either VC1 or H.264 any more.

TGC


----------



## bakerja (Sep 3, 2008)

I have recently turned off the UPnP service on my NAS and gone to TVersity exclusively. It has a new interface since the last time I tried it and it looks and functions wonderfully! Streaming to the PS3 has never been easier or more reliable. Sure would be nice to have this functionality on the TIVO.


----------



## desertkoala (Jul 4, 2008)

Dear TiVo,

Don't sit idle. Add UPnP and DLNA. Look around you. The rest of the industry is already there: DLink, LinkSys, Buffalo ...heck even TV manufacturers are integrating DLNA directly into their sets.

You are a fraction of an inch away from losing your customer base.

You interface looks old, you charge for a channel guide, it's filled with adverts, and you don't work with the rest of the world. Your desktop streaming software is horrific.

The ONLY thing you have going for you is your ridiculously easy to use UI. But guess what, that can be copied.

Your business model makes sense only to the suits/yahoos on the golf course collecting our service fees for channel guides. Your feature list no longer impresses.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

desertkoala said:


> Dear TiVo,
> 
> Don't sit idle. Add UPnP and DLNA. Look around you. The rest of the industry is already there: DLink, LinkSys, Buffalo ...heck even TV manufacturers are integrating DLNA directly into their sets.
> 
> ...


Absolutely! LG's TOP of the Line Blu-ray player the "390" is DLNA compliant and works great both with my Netgear ReadyNas devices as well as my promise NS4300's.

For those of you who thought DLNA is dying? It's not. On last count, Samsung & LG Network Blu-rays support DLNA, as well as about 43 models of LCD & Plasma HD TV's, with more on the way!

Come on TiVo.... get up to speed! 

TGC


----------

