# Keep Closed Captioning on Tivo Files Pushed Back to Tivo



## jasew (Jun 12, 2012)

I've been using kttmg and pyTivo to transfer shows from my Tivo Premiere to my computer. My original idea was to offload some of the shows of the Tivo and put them back on the Tivo for future viewing.

The problem I've run into is when I push the shows back to the Tivo, the closed captioning quits working. I find this really odd because the captions are present if I view the files on my computer.

This is what I do:

1. Use kttmg to pull shows from the Tivo
I keep the original encrypted .tivo file and create a decrypted .mpg file.

2. I'm not able to directly confirm the .tivo file has closed captioning, but the .mpg file does have a CC stream that I can view using VLC Media Player. Since the .mpg was generated from the .tivo file, then it stands to reason that the .tivo file contains the closed caption information.

3. I push the original .tivo file using kttmg/pyTivo back to the Tivo. But when I play the show, there is no closed captioning. This doesn't make sense to me.

I've looked around, but all of the threads I can find have more to do with displaying captions once you get them off the Tivo. That's not what I'm dealing with. I'm pulling a .tivo file from the Tivo, then pushing it right back to the Tivo. In the process the closed captions seem to break. 

Does anybody have any insight on this? How can I get closed captioning on shows pushed back to the Tivo?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

It's a bug in Premiere platform introduced with initial 20.2* software. The round trip of Premiere->PC->Premiere yields no captions as you mentioned. However my S3 OLED unit has no problems displaying captions. Combinations I tested that captions work fine for on S3:
S3->PC->S3
Premiere->PC->S3
Premiere->PC->Premiere->S3

Conclusion: The captions are certainly there and functional since S3 OLED unit can play them back without trouble. Something about TTG transfer "breaks" caption support for Premiere units.

Probably only viable workaround is to hardcode subtitles in the .mpg before returning it to Premiere.


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## jasew (Jun 12, 2012)

That is disheartening. But I appreciate knowing the reason. At least I won't keep banging my head against the wall needlessly.

That's a really good suggestion to burn the subtitles in. I didn't think about that. I'm off to learn a few new tricks then!

Thanks for much for your reply!


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## txporter (Sep 18, 2006)

I hardcode all my captions/subtitles on my files (Tivo downloads, DVD rips, etc). I use avisynth to do this and transcode pretty much solely to H.264/MP4 now with x264 (I used to re-encode back to MPEG2 with hardsubs). There are a number of GUIs that are available to do this now too. Let me know if you are interested in going the command line route and I can help with some scripts.


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## sar840t2 (Mar 1, 2003)

Does this problem also occur if you just use TiVo Desktop to copy to the PC and then back to the TiVo?

I may be seeing this problem on my Premier Elite, but had tentatively put it down to either:
1) The shows were recorded from a "2nd tier" PBS station and perhaps they didn't have the equipment to handle closed-captions, or
2) The shows never had closed captioning (they are old Inspector Morse episodes)

Mike


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Yes, doesn't matter what software you use to pull from the TiVo. It's all the same http(s) interface.


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## E94Allen (Oct 16, 2005)

moyekj said:


> It's a bug in Premiere platform introduced with initial 20.2* software. The round trip of Premiere->PC->Premiere yields no captions as you mentioned. However my S3 OLED unit has no problems displaying captions. Combinations I tested that captions work fine for on S3:
> S3->PC->S3
> Premiere->PC->S3
> Premiere->PC->Premiere->S3
> ...


TiVo HD->Premiere are broken too. At least it is for me. PC is not involved just TiVO to TiVo transfer in the testing about the closed captioning problem.

It would be helpful to call TiVo and refer to this [Incident: 120606-012965]. I called TiVo about my problem and they told me it would be helpful for other people to report this about TiVo to TiVo and maybe PC thing you mentioned might be helpful too for Tier 2 support to figure out because they told me no captions on TiVo are serious problem and they want to resolve this asap.


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## jasew (Jun 12, 2012)

E94Allen said:


> TiVo HD->Premiere are broken too. At least it is for me. PC is not involved just TiVO to TiVo transfer in the testing about the closed captioning problem.
> 
> It would be helpful to call TiVo and refer to this [Incident: 120606-012965]. I called TiVo about my problem and they told me it would be helpful for other people to report this about TiVo to TiVo and maybe PC thing you mentioned might be helpful too for Tier 2 support to figure out because they told me no captions on TiVo are serious problem and they want to resolve this asap.


What would I say? Aren't I essentially performing an unsupported action? I'm pushing a Tivo file to the box without using Tivo Desktop or another Tivo. That wouldn't fall under the real of their support. Rather I would think they may frown upon methods that circumvents their control or products (i.e. paid version of Tivo Desktop).


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## jasew (Jun 12, 2012)

txporter said:


> I hardcode all my captions/subtitles on my files (Tivo downloads, DVD rips, etc). I use avisynth to do this and transcode pretty much solely to H.264/MP4 now with x264 (I used to re-encode back to MPEG2 with hardsubs). There are a number of GUIs that are available to do this now too. Let me know if you are interested in going the command line route and I can help with some scripts.


Thanks for the tip. I might investigate avisynth . I've been trying to use avidemux to burn in the subtitles, but so far haven't been successful.


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## E94Allen (Oct 16, 2005)

Anybody else have same problem with closed captions caused by transfer from TiVo HD to Premiere please reply here and call tech support. Should I maybe create new thread about this issue?


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## jasew (Jun 12, 2012)

An update on this. 

Apparently the closed captioning IS preserved when using Tivo Desktop to pull the video from the Tivo and then then Tivo to pull the video from the PC. I was able to round-trip a video in this fashion and the closed-captioning was preserved.

I didn't discover this earlier because I didn't realize you could use the free version of Tivo Desktop to move a video from the PC to the TV. The trick is the Tivo Desktop can't actually push the file. You have to turn on the Tivo Desktop server and then use the Tivo to pull it from the PC.

According to Tivo support, the captioning bug is only related to transferring a video from a Series 2 to a Premiere.

So it seems that either kttmg or pyTivo is somehow altering the .tivo file such that the closed captioning is lost when pushing it back to the Tivo.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

jasew said:


> According to Tivo support, the captioning bug is only related to transferring a video from a Series 2 to a Premiere.


Please don't quote TiVo support, they're idiots.



> _So it seems that either kttmg or pyTivo is somehow altering the .tivo file such that the closed captioning is lost when pushing it back to the Tivo._


Absolutely not.

It may be a transport stream vs. program stream issue. You're probably pulling transport streams with TiVo Desktop without realizing it.


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## jasew (Jun 12, 2012)

wmcbrine said:


> It may be a transport stream vs. program stream issue. You're probably pulling transport streams with TiVo Desktop without realizing it.


Please elaborate. What steps do I need to take in kttmg or pyTivo to preserve closed captioning when transferring the .tivo files back to the Tivo?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

No steps possible at this time, pyTivo doesn't support sending transport streams back to the TiVo (assuming that would preserve captions; I don't know). I actually have this on my short list to implement, but it hadn't been a priority because we still have no tivodecode for transport streams. It will have to be opaque .TiVo files that we send and receive.

But the caption handling ultimately is a TiVo-side bug, and they need to fix it.


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## bbrown9 (Mar 12, 2011)

But if it works with their software, won't they claim that that there is no bug? What motivation do they have to fix it?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

It doesn't work with their software. Just uncheck the "fast transfers" box, and you'll see the same thing from TiVo Desktop.

I can now confirm that transport streams preserve the captions, BTW.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

I've made a small change to my fork of pyTivo to allow it to pass transport-stream .TiVo files back to the TiVo. It still won't retrieve them _from_ the TiVo, and there are other limitations, but it's better than it was.


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## jasew (Jun 12, 2012)

Hmm - so much going on. I've been doing a little reading and searching on program vs transport streams as these a new concepts to me. Well, my main goal was to find a way to offload videos from the Tivo and put them back for later viewing with CC preserved. I can do that with Tivo Desktop.

Thanks for the information wmcbrine. The knowledge will certainly be useful if I decide to do other tricks.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Reviving this thread because I just noticed now with 20.2.2.1 software captions now survive and are functional when transferring shows with captions back to TiVo.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Hmm, I'm pretty sure that I still don't get captions when I transfer back.. but sometimes the shows I transfer are OLD shows from TivoHD or even possibly my now dead S3&#8230; and it SEEMED to matter whether it came from the Premiere 4 or not.


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## jasew (Jun 12, 2012)

I have the latest Tivo update and I still don't see captions after making a round trip with a .tivo file. I'm also using the latest versions of kttmg and pyTivo.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

I just confirmed again it worked for me, but I know why. I have kmttg configured for TS downloads. So if you download TiVo files in Transport Stream container instead of Program Stream the captions are preserved. Of course the trouble with TS TiVo files is "tivodecode" does not work reliably with them, however in my case I use VideoRedo to decrypt TiVo files so it's not a problem. However if you are just storing them as .TiVo files on your PC then using TS downloads will solve your problem.

P.S. I did try downloading same clip in Program Stream format and confirmed the captions are not preserved that way, so that bug still exists.


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## jasew (Jun 12, 2012)

I'll have to try that option. It would still be a hassle for me as I want the option to decrypt the .tivo without using VideoRedo which costs $50.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

You say tivodecode does not work "reliably" with them.. I thought it didn't work AT ALL with them. Someone (hopefully not you) said that there was a patched version of tivodecode, but I couldn't find it in searching a few weeks ago&#8230; (and I asked on the tivodecode source page, and nobody responded)


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

mattack said:


> You say tivodecode does not work "reliably" with them.. I thought it didn't work AT ALL with them. Someone (hopefully not you) said that there was a patched version of tivodecode, but I couldn't find it in searching a few weeks ago (and I asked on the tivodecode source page, and nobody responded)


 I believe the kmttg windows package contains TS tivodecode binary and the source are available via kmttg as well:
http://code.google.com/p/kmttg/downloads/list
It works for some recordings but not others. I recently tried it on a couple of H.264 TS .TiVo files and it worked fine. But I have several clips for which it does not work.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

I just did some tests, and what I saw here is that captions were preserved when extracting program streams, just not when sending program streams back. So, you can do this:

1. Extract and tivodecode the file as a program stream.
2. Send the file back as a transport stream -- you can do this with pyTivo by setting "ts = on" in the server section of pyTivo.conf.

When I did this, the captions were preserved, except for a few missing letters.


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## jasew (Jun 12, 2012)

Thanks! I'll try it. Though I probably won't be able to until next week.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

jasew said:


> What would I say? Aren't I essentially performing an unsupported action? I'm pushing a Tivo file to the box without using Tivo Desktop or another Tivo. That wouldn't fall under the real of their support. Rather I would think they may frown upon methods that circumvents their control or products (i.e. paid version of Tivo Desktop).


Well, people are reporting tivo to tivo and tivo desktop doing the same thing.

What KMTTG does is use the exact same HTTP url to grab, restore shows as Tivo desktop does.

The fact that tivo to tivo does it to is a real problem. Sounds like something was forgotten in new xfer code.

KMTTG is not illegal. The transfer to a pc to store for future use is perfectly the same as Tivo desktop.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

moyekj said:


> I just confirmed again it worked for me, but I know why. I have kmttg configured for TS downloads. So if you download TiVo files in Transport Stream container instead of Program Stream the captions are preserved. Of course the trouble with TS TiVo files is "tivodecode" does not work reliably with them, however in my case I use VideoRedo to decrypt TiVo files so it's not a problem. However if you are just storing them as .TiVo files on your PC then using TS downloads will solve your problem.
> 
> P.S. I did try downloading same clip in Program Stream format and confirmed the captions are not preserved that way, so that bug still exists.


Kevin, does kmttg store the ts vs ps download config by TIVO? I ask because I have a premiere and 2 tivoHD. THe TS stream download/Videoredo is fine for a premiere, but TS streams are not reliable on TivoHD, correct?

So it might be good if the ts/ps downloads would be by tivo


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

philhu said:


> Kevin, does kmttg store the ts vs ps download config by TIVO? I ask because I have a premiere and 2 tivoHD. THe TS stream download/Videoredo is fine for a premiere, but TS streams are not reliable on TivoHD, correct?
> 
> So it might be good if the ts/ps downloads would be by tivo


 No, it's a global setting. I'm not aware of any differences in TS download reliability between series 3 & series 4 models, but I don't download from series 3 units anymore.


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## txporter (Sep 18, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> When I did this, the captions were preserved, except for a few missing letters.


I am fairly certain that the captions are clipped/jumbled during the remux to download the video off the Tivo. The text seems to go missing in 2 character chunks and sometimes those characters are simply moved elsewhere in the sentence.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

moyekj said:


> No, it's a global setting. I'm not aware of any differences in TS download reliability between series 3 & series 4 models, but I don't download from series 3 units anymore.


AFAIK, the ts downloads were broken for quite a while on Premieres. This was from the pytivo (wmcbrine) group. And these were recently fixed.

My assumption is that since TivoHD units have not had an update in quite a while, its TS download would still be broken, but I could be wrong.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

philhu said:


> AFAIK, the ts downloads were broken for quite a while on Premieres.


 That's news to me and not my experience. Since I use VRD which can decrypt TS TiVO files without a problem I've been using TS downloads for at least a year without issue. I mostly advise against it for anyone that doesn't have VRD since there are still issues with tivodecode for TS TiVo files.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

philhu said:


> AFAIK, the ts downloads were broken for quite a while on Premieres. This was from the pytivo (wmcbrine) group. And these were recently fixed.


You've misunderstood something. There are (still) some issues with TS, but it was never "downloads are broken".



> _My assumption is that since TivoHD units have not had an update in quite a while, its TS download would still be broken, but I could be wrong._


TS transfers only work one way (TiVo -> PC) on Series 3. And it's annoying, because the S3 pretends it can receive TS, and requests it, but if you actually send it, it barfs.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

wmcbrine said:


> You've misunderstood something. There are (still) some issues with TS, but it was never "downloads are broken".
> 
> TS transfers only work one way (TiVo -> PC) on Series 3. And it's annoying, because the S3 pretends it can receive TS, and requests it, but if you actually send it, it barfs.


Ah, that was what I 'misremembered' 
It was uploads are broken to S3 units.


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## oldgeezer19 (Feb 10, 2005)

I have been trying to pull several 30 minute HD shows back to my Tivo Premiere after cutting the commercials with VRD+. I want to preserve closed captioning. I have configured "ts = on" in pyTivo.conf, and the shows transfer fine. They display the closed captions when played back on the Tivo, but, the 19 minute commercial free shows only show a duration of 2 minutes (partial) and, when the shows are played, I can only FF to the 2 minute mark before the playback pauses. The progress bar only shows 2 minutes of green out of the 19 minutes of video.

If I press play, the playback resumes and I can view beyond 2 minutes into the show, but, the progress bar never moves beyond 2 minutes. FF seems to work, but REW restarts the playback from the beginning of the show.

If I push the shows back using pyTivo and kmttg, the show duration is correct, the progress bar advances properly, but CC is not preserved.

Is this only a Tivo Premiere issue? If I transfer the shows to my TiviHD, will CC be preserved? If I then transfer the shows from the TivoHD to the Tivo Premiere, will CC be lost?


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## BlondAngel (Feb 25, 2011)

More info at thread 504410 in this forum titled "Closed captions for archived shows"


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## elmeng (Mar 7, 2009)

Funny coincidence, last week my Tivo Premiere's software was upgraded. while transfering a edited toasted tivo tv program, the tiVO was recieving a download from Tivo with the Tivo tutorials at the same time. Low and behold, the CC worked on the uploaded edited program to my premiere. Thought, yea they fixed it, but alas, just this once. I didn't watch it all the way thru yet.


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