# Gizmodo Review



## flaminiom (Dec 27, 2008)

http://gizmodo.com/5498459/

Seems mixed bag, mostly negative.


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## jdgarrido (Jan 17, 2005)

So the first version of the HD UI is up. Looks like its more of a beta than prime time. Here's hoping they get it right soon. Still I can wait for mines to ship.


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## flaminiom (Dec 27, 2008)

I was hoping too this isn't shipping version, but I'm doubtful, or at least doubtful it's much different. If it is, Tivo should have made that clear to him and he should have relayed it's pre-release so not be too hard on it.


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## xboard07 (Dec 16, 2007)

They should have had the HD UI complete before they even made their "big" (and I use the term loosely) announcement.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Hopefully this is an early version of the software, and the classic UI flies. It is definitely not a good sign if the following is true



> Remember how your old TiVo took a really long time to process your programming update when you manually connected to the service? And then the download took forever to process? That's still true. (Which is one reason why it took me over an hour to get the Premiere up and running.)


Now maybe this is for the UI update, but still this doesn't look good for TiVo.

I will be curious to see when some TiVo fans and those middle of the road feel when they get theirs.


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## falcon26 (Mar 17, 2010)

Ouch. After reading that review it gives me second thoughts. Maybe a series 3 would be better. I thought the series 4 was supposed to be alot faster than the previous tivo's? In the review it seems its twice as slow...


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## paulnelson20 (Oct 18, 2007)

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/24/tivo-premiere-review/

Engadget's review claims that it is currently running on only one of the two cores, because of stability issues and will be sending out an update in the near future that will hopefully speed up the interface.


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## Unseen Llama (Nov 29, 2005)

Was afraid of the sluggishness from the demo videos. I understand that this could be pre-release software, but with almost 3x the processing power of the old HD, how can UI things still be that slow? It just boggles my mind. I'm hoping that there can be additional hardware acceleration that takes place with future Flash updates. The Premier is going to need it.


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## falcon26 (Mar 17, 2010)

Yeah I really really hope that its only a first revision of the tivo and that an update is due very very soon to fix these issues. Because as it stands now the series 4 is like 2 steps behind the series 3


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## Unseen Llama (Nov 29, 2005)

flaminiom said:


> I was hoping too this isn't shipping version, but I'm doubtful, or at least doubtful it's much different. If it is, Tivo should have made that clear to him and he should have relayed it's pre-release so not be too hard on it.


Both Engadget and Gizmodo are labeling these as their official reviews. Pre-release or not, these impressions are what will spread over the Internet.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I wonder if and when Netflix will get updated. Apparently according to the Engadget review it is still using the series 3 UI for that part.

This is definitely positive though, because I was afraid they were going to leave every thing in.



> You can also switch services off selectively, so if you only want to see movies that stream from Netflix you can set that.


 from engadgethd.

Though this is disappointing and I don't know how TiVo can fix or address this unless they incorporate some type of AKA or use IMDB #s


> Netflix lists Food, Inc. as "Food, Inc. (2008)," so it wasn't combined with the main result for the movie.


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## Unseen Llama (Nov 29, 2005)

paulnelson20 said:


> http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/24/tivo-premiere-review/
> 
> Engadget's review claims that it is currently running on only one of the two cores, because of stability issues and will be sending out an update in the near future that will hopefully speed up the interface.


That is promising! :up:


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

I think those sites got their time zones wrong. Or one did and the other followed suit.


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

> "It's Slow and Often Ugly
> Nothing about the Premiere is smooth."


Reminds me of Microsoft Vista when it came out. Hope this isn't Tivo's Vista.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Why was TiVo in such a hurry to get this thing to market? Assuming most of these speed issues can be addressed over time, wouldn't they have been better off just waiting a bit and then blowing everyone away when it was finally released? I've been one of the most optimistic people when it comes to the Premiere, but even I have a knot in my stomach after reading these early reviews.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

This has me seriously reconsidering my pre-order.


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## falcon26 (Mar 17, 2010)

You and me both :-( I might just go ahead and get a series 3 HD for around $175


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## xcrunner (Feb 2, 2009)

Wow pathetic. Glad I canceled my pre-order.


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## falcon26 (Mar 17, 2010)

Well if I buy from amazon I can still return and get a full refund within 30 days. So I might just go ahead and try it...


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

While it doesn't look that positive, I am still holding out for some real world numbers like how fast can you transfer an hour long HD show.

I may have to hold out on upgrading to a HDTV until they finish the HDUI. The classic UI did look extremely fast especially when it didn't have to deal with the constant reloading of the discovery bar.


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## SafariKC (Mar 6, 2000)

I'm out. Maybe someday when it grows up I'll come play. But not after those reviews.. not now. I'll stick with my Series 3's for now.

From my Twitter Feed: (@SafariKC)

I just canceled my TiVo Premiere XL order. @TiVo needs to try MUCH harder! http://bit.ly/b4JSh8 http://bit.ly/aAngB6


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> I think those sites got their time zones wrong. Or one did and the other followed suit.


Yeah, a broken embargo can't be unbroken. So once one person does it, then it is fair game.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Ben,

Do you have one? Or only Nilay Patel?


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> Ben,
> 
> Do you have one? Or only Nilay Patel?


Sadly, I don't. Might get a chance to try it later though.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Apparently this was the first review to break the embargo.

http://ptech.allthingsd.com/20100324/new-tivo-mixes-tv-and-internet-but-falls-short/


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## flaminiom (Dec 27, 2008)

The engadget review is pretty good. 

Basically seems the cake isn't done yet. Tivo hasn't even finished its UI, just the high traffic screens. The lag is unacceptable. 

The Discovery Bar looks really problematic. A much better interface for the same thing would be to have the bar stay unchanged when you flip screens, and then transition with new pictures. That simple change could smooth over the issues of conterminously refreshing each screen and vastly improve the user experience. Having the pictures load from blank as they come in is unattractive and really gives a bad user experience. If you're fat, you don't wear skin tight cloths.

Anyway, I glean from this that the update we're expecting for the launch will activate the second core and should speed things up. That should help. Also, Tivo will eventually update the unfinished portions, although if this as far as they got in 18 months, that doesn't lend much optimism for working quickly. 

The multi-source search/browse is cool. It will be cool to pull streaming content from Netflix right from the Tivo. Way better than now, and probably will get even more impressive as Netflix adds more streaming titles.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> Apparently this was the first review to break the embargo.
> 
> http://ptech.allthingsd.com/20100324/new-tivo-mixes-tv-and-internet-but-falls-short/


Yep and he sums it up pretty nicely (not as good as Nilay obviously 

"All in all, TiVo Premiere looks incomplete. It seems more like a platform for a future set of offerings TiVo hopes one day to have, rather than a way to deliver new content right now."


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## flaminiom (Dec 27, 2008)

bdraw said:


> Yeah, a broken embargo can't be unbroken. So once one person does it, then it is fair game.


These guys don't break embargoes. If everyone is posting, it's because the embargo expired.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Look at the bright side, guys. If you were looking to sell your Series 3 on eBay, its value just went up 20&#37;.


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## Unseen Llama (Nov 29, 2005)

bdraw said:


> Sadly, I don't. Might get a chance to try it later though.


Ben,

Can you ask Nilay about any difference in the speed of transferring shows to the computer?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

gweempose said:


> Look at the bright side, guys. If you were looking to sell your Series 3 on eBay, its value just went up 20%.


Better sell it in the next 56 minutes then. 



Unseen Llama said:


> Ben,
> 
> Can you ask Nilay about any difference in the speed of transferring shows to the computer?


All the charts and graphs you could want coming in 56 minutes.


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## falcon26 (Mar 17, 2010)

Wow even in that review it pretty much says the series 4 has nothing really that advanced over the series 3.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

bdraw said:


> Yep and he sums it up pretty nicely (not as good as Nilay obviously
> 
> "All in all, TiVo Premiere looks incomplete. It seems more like a platform for a future set of offerings TiVo hopes one day to have, rather than a way to deliver new content right now."


Obviously. I personally can't wait until monday's podcast to hear the discussion, but since you didn't get yours yet it may not be as colorful as I would hope.

Oh well it didn't cost me to upgrade and until I have a HD set I will be stuck on the old UI anyway. This may convince me to wait on the upgrade anyway if the UI isn't fully finished by this summer when the new large Panasonic Plasmas come out.

Of course I will be staying up for the charts and graphs to hopefully get some positive out of this.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

This is just really, really disappointing. We knew that TiVo aimed low, but finding out that they aimed low and hit lower is just a huge sock in the gut for a device that commands a premium price and made the mistake of offering the world (Inventing the DVR was just a Warmup!).

Way to go TiVo. Looks like it might be a Moxi for me, at least they appear interested in innovating.


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## Unseen Llama (Nov 29, 2005)

bkdtv said:


> Better sell it in the next 56 minutes then.
> 
> All the charts and graphs you could want coming in 56 minutes.


Excellent! I'm a visual person.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

The most troubling thing is that it sounds like the new interface will not be completed for a long time. I think a lot of people expected things to be ironed out within a month or so of it shipping. From watching those videos it really seems like it will be several months, maybe even a year or more. There is a LOT of work to be done. The HD portions of the interface are slow and glitchy and it's not even available yet for season passes, listings grids, online content menus, etc. Bottom line is they released it way before it was ready.


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## falcon26 (Mar 17, 2010)

Wait you can't have a season pass on the new tivo's???


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## patatrox (Nov 30, 2006)

falcon26 said:


> Wait you can't have a season pass on the new tivo's???


You absolutely can.


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## hoyty (Jan 22, 2003)

The new interface is slower in those videos than the TiVo Search is on my Series 3? I am not joking I see no lag in the pictures popping up at the top bar in the TiVo Search and nothing even close to what the Engadget videos showed. What gives how is it slower?


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

falcon26 said:


> Wait you can't have a season pass on the new tivo's???


Not sure how you got that. If you're referring to the post above yours, you completely misread it. It just says that many areas of the UI, including the Season Pass section, have not been updated for the new TiVo interface design. The feature is still there, it just drops you back to the "TiVo Classic" interface.

I'm actually rather shocked that TiVo would allow the software to release in this state, with half (if even) of the software using the updated appearance and the other half using the classic appearance.

IMHO: They should have just "soft-launched" the Premiere. No fancy gala premiere at the Top of the Rock... just start to quietly sell the new boxes once the old HD's run out. Then, once you actually have a software that is complete, that is all running the same interface, and one that can actually use both cores without having "stability issues," THEN do a real launch as the software starts being distributed to existing owners.

Frankly, right now TiVo looks amateurish and silly, and the Premiere isn't a product I'd want to own in its current state.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

hoyty said:


> What gives how is it slower?


Apparently there are "stability issues" with the two cores, so the software is only running on one of them right now. (As an analogy, think of a car running on only half of its cylinders.)


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

I just canceled my order for the XL. I am so disappointed. I have had Tivo since 2000 and was really looking forward to a new UI. The lag in the videos is not acceptable to me.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

So it is slow and TiVo removed 30 sec skip hack. Does anybody know if hard drive hack will be working?


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## paulnelson20 (Oct 18, 2007)

dbtom said:


> I just canceled my order for the XL. I am so disappointed. I have had Tivo since 2000 and was really looking forward to a new UI. The lag in the videos is not acceptable to me.


I really don't understand a lot of people. The review (Engadget) said that it is currently only running on one of the two cores. I would at least wait until I saw what the speed was like running on both cores before I canceled my preorder. What happens if, and I mean if, they activate that second core and the majority of the lag goes away? Will you be rushing out to buy one, only to find out every place is out of stock and have to wait another month?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Some people don't want to be the guinea pigs and I can fully understand that. If you aren't taking advantage of the upgrade offer and you don't need to upgrade right now, it makes some sense to hold off at least until we get some feedback from the tivocommunity users also.


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

paulnelson20 said:


> I really don't understand a lot of people. The review (Engadget) said that it is currently only running on one of the two cores. I would at least wait until I saw what the speed was like running on both cores before I canceled my preorder. What happens if, and I mean if, they activate that second core and the majority of the lag goes away? Will you be rushing out to buy one, only to find out every place is out of stock and have to wait another month?


The Premiere will probably ship in the next week or so. They are not going to activate the other core in that period. Maybe they will never activate it. Why take the chance? With these reviews I seriously doubt that every store will be out of stock.

My perspective is probably different since I already have 2 TivoHDs and only two HDTVs. So one of the TivoHDs was going to go to an old tube TV. There is nothing new to the Premiere except the UI. If that is not fully baked I will just wait.


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## paulnelson20 (Oct 18, 2007)

I fully understand the argument of people not wanting to be "guinea pigs." But, in all the years I have been buying products, the word "pre-order" always turned the light bulbs on in my head and I knew that there may be issues and that I ultimately was going to be a guinea pig. Why even preorder if at the first sign of problems you are going to cancel, or why pre-order when you barely know anything about the product (not the buyers fault in this case, but TiVo's for not putting this kind of important info out there). Why not wait until you have the info to make an informed decision and not buy and then pray that everything will be hunky-dory.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Frankly the thing that surprises me is that TiVo would send it out in this state to reviewers and not realize that they would be pilloried for it.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

I am running a few minutes late, but here's something to hold you over...

A shot of the current TiVo HD...










Now the TiVo Premiere, same tests run from the same tuned channels...










And here's a Youtube video showing side-by-side downloads from a TiVoHD and Premiere.


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## paulnelson20 (Oct 18, 2007)

Holy hell, at least they got one thing right!


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I think it might be in part due to TiVo having a pretty good track record of not releasing things until they are finished. I doubt most people thought TiVo would release a half finished UI. 

It is also probably due to the hype and the general excitement of TiVo finally releasing something new. 

I know I go back and forth. Some days I am really excited about the new Premiere. Then there are those days where my finger hovers over the cancel button and they aren't even costing me money to upgrade.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> And here's a Youtube video showing side-by-side downloads from a TiVoHD and Premiere.


Your video is marked private.


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## ckelly33 (Oct 30, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> I am running a few minutes late, but here's something to hold you over...And here's a Youtube video showing side-by-side downloads from a TiVoHD and Premiere.


The video is marked as private....


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## SafariKC (Mar 6, 2000)

nrc said:


> Frankly the thing that surprises me is that TiVo would send it out in this state to reviewers and not realize that they would be pilloried for it.


This is exactly why I canceled. I'm a very bleading edge kinda guy. But this just smells of TiVo rushing. If they cared to prove it was awesome and the next best thing they wouldn't have done the big event -- and blame all the slowness on the slow Internet at the time, and then turn around and hand out review models to back up thier story that are just slow.

Let's be real for a moment here, so far all TiVo has shown is that the took the old TiVo search beta and made it the home page in flash. Everything else behind it today it just the series3 experience.

The future is probably bright, and once they prove it a little bit better than this I'll probably revisit.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

samo said:


> TiVo removed 30 sec skip hack.


I skimmed through the review quickly, so I missed that. Where did it say that?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

samo said:


> So it is slow and TiVo removed 30 sec skip hack. Does anybody know if hard drive hack will be working?


They didn't remove the hack. It is still there and works. They just added a 30 second scan option.

from the FAQ


> # What is the new "30 second scan" feature?
> 
> On past TiVos, users had to enter a special remote sequence to enable the 30 second skip function.
> 
> ...


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## paulnelson20 (Oct 18, 2007)

Kablemodem said:


> I skimmed through the review quickly, so I missed that. Where did it say that?


In the Engadget review under "On demand, commercial skipping, and moving video around"

It says, "instead, there's a 30-second "scan" that moves forward in about a second by default. It's not as quick as the skip, but it's effective, and we're sure it's keeping advertisers happy, so we'll accept it as a fine compromise between the functionality users want and the demands of content providers."


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

paulnelson20 said:


> I really don't understand a lot of people. The review (Engadget) said that it is currently only running on one of the two cores. I would at least wait until I saw what the speed was like running on both cores before I canceled my preorder. What happens if, and I mean if, they activate that second core and the majority of the lag goes away? Will you be rushing out to buy one, only to find out every place is out of stock and have to wait another month?


What is there not to understand? This is the ONLY product that TiVo will be selling and they are launching it in a 1/2 baked state. Basically if you buy it today you are paying a price premium for a product that may or may not ever live up to its full potential.

Things are only compounded by the huge fanfare and fuss that TiVo made of this product launch.

Again, this is the *only product* that TiVo currently produces. Compare this to Apple's launch of the iPhone, which Apple put a lot of resources into but it was only one of an entire stable of products that they produce. The iPhone came out and floored everyone. When the product shipped it actually worked and the bug fixes were pretty minor. The entire user interface was "done".

With the state of this TiVo Premier launch TiVo should be paying *us* since we are basically going to be beta testing this thing. They should be paying *us* to use this box so that they don't lose us as customer to cable company DVRs or Moxi.

This would be funny if it wasn't so miserable.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

If we all cancel our pre-orders and don't buy this product in this state it will send a very stern message to TiVo (the message obviously being, get your *bleeping* **** together).

If they can't sell the box they will be forced to reduce the price or risk going out of business. Their entire future as a company literally hinges on the success of this platform.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Rather than make you wait for the last page or two...here's my incomplete review.

http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/prem_review_01.pdf


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Hey not sure if you saw but your video is marked private on youtube so no one can view it.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

I marked it public 50 minutes ago, but it hasn't taken effect.

Here's a mirror at lower quality (click HD and full screen), while I re-upload it to Youtube.

Vimeo: Download performance on a Premiere vs. TivoHD


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## paulnelson20 (Oct 18, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> Rather than make you wait for the last page or two...here's my incomplete review.
> 
> http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/prem_review_01.pdf


Ben, don't know if you know but, under "Download recorded files, performance" it says "With the TiVo Premiere, you can record *three *different HD channels, watch a previously recorded HD program, and download a
HD recording to your computer over wireless, all at the same time."

Typo, right?

Or, do you mean, two via cable and one via antenna?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Oh well typo. One can hope.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Oye. That constant menu downloading would drive me nuts in 10 minutes. I was getting agitated just watching the new engadget review videos. Can't do it.

Cancelled the order. The TP isn't going anywhere... If they get their act together once both cores are activated and stuff loads near-immediately like it should, I might revisit it unless I've already gotten an alternative. I'm not going to buy on the hope of a speedy update, because their history of fixing issues with their products with any urgency has been against them for the past couple years.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> Rather than make you wait for the last page or two...here's my incomplete review.
> 
> http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/prem_review_01.pdf


FWIW - getting a 404 file not found error.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

paulnelson20 said:


> Typo, right?


Typo. Fixed.


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## paulnelson20 (Oct 18, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> Typo. Fixed.


Dang!


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

My pre-order stands. I'm not bothered by these early reviews. We already know that the final HD UI software isn't ready yet. It may not even be ready by the time the pre-orders ship, but I know TiVo will send out updates over time and that's good enough for me.

The Premiere as it stands with incomplete software and not firing on both CPU cores is still AT LEAST as good as the TiVo HD and better in some areas. Again, that's good enough for me. I'm buying into the platform that will take us forward over the next couple of years. I'm willing to be there as it evolves.

My only complaint is that TiVo should have managed the release better than this! These early reviews will hurt TiVo and that makes me sad. They should have baked the product and software a bit more before announcing and releasing it. This launch experience will drive away some new TiVo customers.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> FWIW - getting a 404 file not found error.


You were probably trying to grab it while I was uploading a fixed PDF.

Youtube finally fixed their private flag on the video:


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## mamosley (Apr 9, 2003)

I'm not canceling my pre order. There will be updates. There is a 30 day moneyback policy and hopefully I wont be disappointed in a very short span of time like I was with the Moxi dvr.


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## Saberj (Sep 29, 2006)

I was already upset at only having two tuners. The reviews of the performance is just the icing on the cake. I won't be ordering anytime soon.

Yeah, this can all be fixed in the future. And guess what? You will still be able to order it in the future as well. Why continue with plans to purchase something that obviously isn't done yet? It's best to send Tivo a message in advance. I don't understand why people would rather use a return policy. Just wait for it to be fixed. It's better than going through the trouble of return shipping and cablecard setup before the box is ready.


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## Quaro (Sep 14, 2004)

I don't understand why they can't cache the menus in memory. Why upgrade the hardware platform if you aren't going to add enough memory to be useful?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Saberj said:


> ...Why continue with plans to purchase something that obviously isn't done yet?


50% off PLS? Good luck getting that when you're ready to purchase!


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## mamosley (Apr 9, 2003)

Saberj said:


> I was already upset at only having two tuners. The reviews of the performance is just the icing on the cake. I won't be ordering anytime soon.
> 
> Yeah, this can all be fixed in the future. And guess what? You will still be able to order it in the future as well. Why continue with plans to purchase something that obviously isn't done yet? It's best to send Tivo a message in advance. I don't understand why people would rather use a return policy. Just wait for it to be fixed. It's better than going through the trouble of return shipping and cablecard setup before the box is ready.


I guess the best way to explain it is by relating my experience with the iphone. Very exited before it came out. Waited in line the first day to get it. Was thrilled with it for about the first 3 days then was a little disappointed with the lack of some features. I didnt get a 3g iphone, I even tried a different phone and just couldnt do it. Had to go back to the iphone. I did get the 3gs because I deemed it enough of an incremental update. Same with the premiere. For my self I think it will be enough of an incremental upgrade over my tivohd and I have faith it will mature in due time. If not I would probably spend the money on an ipad which I have absolutely no use for but I like my toys.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> You were probably trying to grab it while I was uploading a fixed PDF.
> 
> Youtube finally fixed their private flag on the video:


Yup. Fixed. Very nice job and very informative review. Typo on page 9 when SPS30S first referenced (an extra PLAY in there).


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## Unseen Llama (Nov 29, 2005)

Thanks for the review bkdtv! Going to read this today. I still have hope for the Tivo Premier and still plan one picking on up at BestBuy this Sunday. Now it's up to Tivo to fix the sluggishness of the UI and enable that other core! 

Reminds me of when the first iPhone came out. The hardware was there to support so much more, and it took Apple a while to get additional features out.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

SafariKC said:


> But this just smells of TiVo rushing.


I don't know... I have reason to believe the hardware was supposed to launch last November. And the new UI has been in development for 2 years. So if they're rushing, they go about it in a funny way.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

TrueTurbo said:


> The Premiere as it stands with incomplete software and not firing on both CPU cores is still AT LEAST as good as the TiVo HD and better in some areas.


I'm sure Engadget didn't explain that part very well. Most likely both cores ARE being used by the OS. My guess is the new UI wasn't written with multiple core support. However, the OS itself is surely using both cores already. So I certainly wouldn't expect a 100% speed increase if they do add support (in fact the speed increase with only be minimal most likely).


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

If that is the case, they really should have just put the hardware out there with no announcement back in November. This would have picked up some possible holiday sales and with little expectations from those buying it. Then once the UI was finished they could have announced it while also mentioning it would be rolling out as an update to the Premiere. This way it could be finished 100% instead of a UI that is being sent out unfinished and without optimization.


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## flaminiom (Dec 27, 2008)

TrueTurbo said:


> My only complaint is that TiVo should have managed the release better than this! These early reviews will hurt TiVo and that makes me sad. They should have baked the product and software a bit more before announcing and releasing it. This launch experience will drive away some new TiVo customers.


Yeah. I watched the launch video, and well, it seems the company has issues. It seems lazy at best, incompetent at worst.



innocentfreak said:


> If that is the case, they really should have just put the hardware out there with no announcement back in November. This would have picked up some possible holiday sales and with little expectations from those buying it. Then once the UI was finished they could have announced it while also mentioning it would be rolling out as an update to the Premiere. This way it could be finished 100% instead of a UI that is being sent out unfinished and without optimization.


Or just wait until this holiday and ship a finished product. LOL.

With the mixed UI, I wonder if we won't see multicore UI support until the menus are finished? Not sure how well that can handled going back and forth, so they may need to disable multiprocessor UI until it's all good to go.

I'm really disappointed in the incomplete UI. I thought that to be one of the two big features, other being the multi-source content search.


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## Saberj (Sep 29, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> 50% off PLS? Good luck getting that when you're ready to purchase!


Yeah, I don't get that deal, so it's not an issue for me. I assumed it was like the existing member discount that all other members get. That's been available for me for much longer than the Premiere, so I assume that will stick around. If not, then the decision becomes even easier after that point.


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## etavadia (Sep 11, 2003)

I can't believe that TiVO would kick out such a dog. There's no way I'm giving up my speedy interface on my Series 3 for a sluggish interface. 

Hope to see more reviews that will validate the Gizmodo review or better yet, show that it's worth it.

I have yet to see a screenshot of the guide in HD?


What a deal killer!!!
ET


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## Saberj (Sep 29, 2006)

etavadia said:


> I can't believe that TiVO would kick out such a dog. There's no way I'm giving up my speedy interface on my Series 3 for a sluggish interface.
> 
> Hope to see more reviews that will validate the Gizmodo review or better yet, show that it's worth it.
> 
> ...


The guide isn't in HD yet. Read where that's still yet to be converted, but I don't remember where I read it. I believe the Engadget review shows the old guide still in one of their videos.


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## cptodd (Jun 30, 2002)

The folks at TiVo must be reading these threads and cringing. To have a group of loyal TiVo owners complaining should make them shake in their boots.

I wonder if this massive mess-up (and I am being generous by calling it a mess-up) is as result of their flagging fortunes? It takes money to develop software and hardware.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

flaminiom said:


> Or just wait until this holiday and ship a finished product. LOL.
> 
> With the mixed UI, I wonder if we won't see multicore UI support until the menus are finished? Not sure how well that can handled going back and forth, so they may need to disable multiprocessor UI until it's all good to go.
> 
> I'm really disappointed in the incomplete UI. I thought that to be one of the two big features, other being the multi-source content search.


Nah it would have been better to get the new hardware out there just to see what it could do. Some people would have bought it just for the new hardware alone without a promise of a new UI. Also this way they could have gotten real feedback on TiVo search since it would hopefully be fast and usable and they could have also updated it over time as they worked on the new UI. It actually would have been a real beta with more valid feedback.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Saberj said:


> Yeah, I don't get that deal, so it's not an issue for me. I assumed it was like the existing member discount that all other members get. That's been available for me for much longer than the Premiere, so I assume that will stick around. If not, then the decision becomes even easier after that point.


Yep, MSD has been around awhile (25% off PLS), and I would certainly hate to see it discontinued. I'd say in your situation, holding off for awhile and letting us early adopters chime in to TiVo with UI suggestions and improvements would seem prudent, especially if no net savings is to be had for you with the upgrade program.


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## bferrell (Jun 22, 2005)

etavadia said:


> I can't believe that TiVO would kick out such a dog. There's no way I'm giving up my speedy interface on my Series 3 for a sluggish interface.
> 
> ET


Wow, never thought I'd hear someone call the S3 speedy... I love both of my S3s, but I would never call them speedy....

B


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

Tivo really the the wrong approach for this. They are re-using old SD menus in some parts of their new interface. As many developers will tell you, using old code in a new product can lead to problems.

Tivo should have taken a page from Microsoft.. Yes Microsoft. Microsoft is redoing the code for Windows Phones Series 7 wrote it from the ground up.


I will reiterate this again. If you do not OTA or Tivo to go, Moxi is clearly the way to go.

3 Tuners
HD Interface (Faster than Tivo Premiere.. matter of fact they just released an update that made the menus even speedier)
Live Streaming to to other rooms


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

fatlard,

They aren't "re-using" old menus. The old and new environments are running simultaneously. Paraphrased from TiVo:



> For the near term, the TiVo Premiere will run both the traditional interface and the Adobe Stagecraft
> environment simultaneously. TiVo is rewriting the "high-traffic areas" of the interface first, with less
> trafficked menus to follow later. The initial HD interface update will include HD menus, My Shows,
> search, and browse TV, but it won't be anywhere close to feature complete; HD updates for live TV
> ...


----------



## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

To me... it really looks like TiVo started replacing the hardware because the time was right or they needed to start a new production run anyways.
And then they just got on the software too late and with too little effort or money or something... from teh reviews, the software looks (sadly in typical TiVo form) like it is 25% complete, 25% unpolished, 50% unimplemented/broken concepts.

One could legitimately disagree with the sanity of releasing the HDUI in such a broken state (partial HD, slow, not using two cores, etc.).
And certainly the overblown press event didn't help... they should have been more forth coming about the classic UI and the state of the HDUI.
But I don't think they could have delayed the hardware release much more... they've run out of the old platform to sell and they'd already started producing the new model.
They probably didn't plan the software development well.. didn't leave enough time.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

fatlard said:


> As many developers will tell you, using old code in a new product can lead to problems.





fatlard said:


> HD Interface (Faster than Tivo Premiere.. matter of fact they just released an update that made the menus even speedier)


 yeah Moxi has won emmies for its interface


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yeah Moxi has won emmies for its interface


I'm getting eight Premieres now. I'm really excited about it after reading the thorough review here.



bkdtv said:


> Rather than make you wait for the last page or two...here's my incomplete review.
> 
> http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/prem_review_01.pdf


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Nah it would have been better to get the new hardware out there just to see what it could do. Some people would have bought it just for the new hardware alone without a promise of a new UI. Also this way they could have gotten real feedback on TiVo search since it would hopefully be fast and usable and they could have also updated it over time as they worked on the new UI. It actually would have been a real beta with more valid feedback.


I have to disagree here. Just because the hardware is ready doesn't mean you have a good product. It's very hard to undo bad perception once it's out there in the marketplace. Tivo shot themselves in the foot by releasing the product with a half-finished UI. They should have delayed their Premiere launch until September (asssuming they can get the software done by then) to target holiday shopping.


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## SMWinnie (Aug 17, 2002)

Mossberg has a lot of pull with the suit-and-tie flavor of geek. He's panning the Premiere, calling it "incomplete" and "a platform for a future set of offerings TiVo hopes one day to have."


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> I'm getting eight Premieres now. I'm really excited about it after reading the thorough review here.


What, exactly, is there to be excited about? A 1/4 done new UI? TiVo doesn't have a good track record of finishing their UIs. A faster cpu that's hobbled by "stability issues" and may or may not get a bug fix this year? A cost reduced hardware platform?

Please tell me what there is to get excited about... an HD search screen and faster TTG transfers? It's almost laughably pathetic.

That light TiVo sees at the end of the tunnel is almost certainly an oncoming train.


----------



## falcon26 (Mar 17, 2010)

Seems to me the series 3 is a much better buy than the series 4. At least its complete and rock solid. The series 4 is very very incomplete and who knows when tivo will have it 100&#37; completely done. People that get it now will be using an incomplete product. I wouldn't be to happy with that...


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

I knew it, I knew it, I knew it!
3 years ago, I had/designed a HTPC that grabbed info from the internet like the Premier was touting and even though it cached gigs of data, it too was sluggish as hell (Wich is one of the reasons I got a Tivo in the first place.)
From day one I knew this pig was gonna be SLOW as far as internet content goes (3/4 interface).. the rest.. well that was a surprise.
Still, all in all, When I need a new DVR.. the Premiere will have to do.


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## etavadia (Sep 11, 2003)

bferrell said:


> Wow, never thought I'd hear someone call the S3 speedy... I love both of my S3s, but I would never call them speedy....
> 
> B


Compared to my old Comcast DVR, believe me the S3 is like a concord.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

bschuler2007 said:


> I knew it, I knew it, I knew it!
> 3 years ago, I had/designed a HTPC that grabbed info from the internet like the Premier was touting and even though it cached gigs of data, it too was sluggish as hell (Wich is one of the reasons I got a Tivo in the first place.)
> From day one I knew this pig was gonna be SLOW as far as internet content goes (3/4 interface).. the rest.. well that was a surprise.
> Still, all in all, When I need a new DVR.. the Premiere will have to do.


I am not sure why you have to settle on the Premiere...

There are going to be many options out there.

Centon and Windows 7 Media Center
or Moxi

A company is clearly not serving its customer when they do not desire the product... they just have to settle for it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

fatlard said:


> I am not sure why you have to settle on the Premiere...
> 
> There are going to be many options out there.
> 
> ...


No need to settle. The Premiere will be the best thing out there. I will now have eight of them on order and will be selling all my S3 units. After using over twenty TiVos since 2001, I have zero reservations about buying these Premiere units. With TiVos generous upgrade offer it is more than worth it since I'm able to sell my existing S3 boxes.

After reding the review I am very excited about the release.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> No need to settle. The Premiere will be the best thing out there. I will now have eight of them on order and will be selling all my S3 units. After using over twenty TiVos since 2001, I have zero reservations about buying these Premiere units. With TiVos generous upgrade offer it is more than worth it since I'm able to sell my existing S3 boxes.


With all of your bubbling enthusiasm and open wallet we hopefully won't see you on the numerous bug threads sure to crop up at TCF in the coming weeks.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> With all of your bubbling enthusiasm and open wallet we hopefully won't see you on the numerous bug threads sure to crop up at TCF in the coming weeks.


Not really an open wallet. I am selling my existing units so out of pocket costs are minimal. I will be surprised if I have a bunch of issues with them. Over the last nine years I have had minimal issues with the TiVos I've owned.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> Not really an open wallet. I am selling my existing units so out of pocket costs are minimal. I will be surprised if I have a bunch of issues with them. Over the last nine years I have had minimal issues with the TiVos I've owned.


Best of luck. The early reviews don't lie. The new box is slow and pokey.


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## flaminiom (Dec 27, 2008)

aaronwt said:


> No need to settle. The Premiere will be the best thing out there. I will now have eight of them on order and will be selling all my S3 units. After using over twenty TiVos since 2001, I have zero reservations about buying these Premiere units. With TiVos generous upgrade offer it is more than worth it since I'm able to sell my existing S3 boxes.
> 
> After reding the review I am very excited about the release.


I'm assuming here you do a lot of transfers between devices. If I did that, I'd be excited too with the transfer tests. Other wise I'm trying to convince myself why I shouldn't wait.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> Rather than make you wait for the last page or two...here's my incomplete review.
> 
> http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/prem_review_01.pdf


Sorry if it's been asked and answered, but what release of the software did you test with? The PDF mentioned 14.0 and 14.1. Right now my Series3 version is 11.0d-01-2-648...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

flaminiom said:


> I'm assuming here you do a lot of transfers between devices. If I did that, I'd be excited too with the transfer tests. Other wise I'm trying to convince myself why I shouldn't wait.


Yes I do transfers of most of my recordings either to TiVo Desktop and/or between units.


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## Thunderclap (Nov 28, 2005)

Canceled my order. Such a shame. Guess I'll stick with my Tivo HD a while longer.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

the saving grace is you can do back to the old interface, right? Until they get the new one right if ever.

I'm on the fence. 

I have a Series 2 that is now obsolete and need to do something soon.

I'm leaning towards Dish and their multi-room DVR over Comcast and a new Tivo.

Will I come crawling back? Anyone with experience with newest Dish equipment? What are the specific knocks on the newest Dish dvr.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> the saving grace is you can do back to the old interface, right? Until they get the new one right if ever.
> 
> I'm on the fence.
> 
> ...


Look at the Moxi. Although a lot of people here like to bash the Moxi because of me, it is quite a good device. It will work especially well for you if you need HD dvr in multiple rooms.

http://moxi.com/us/home.html


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## cruiserandmax (Apr 7, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> 50% off PLS? Good luck getting that when you're ready to purchase!


I just canceled my March 9th pre-order (was getting the %50 of PLS). No discount is worth getting stuck with such a crappy interface for a lifetime. There's no way any "update" is going to fix some of the basic hardware issues like RAM.


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## alokkola (Apr 18, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Rather than make you wait for the last page or two...here's my incomplete review.
> 
> http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/prem_review_01.pdf


Excellent review with my level of detail. I had been tired of reading Tivo bashing reviews for the past month. Although I don't really that Tivo didn't do anything radical with Premiere, I will pickup a Premiere just because of the hardware specs. With better hardware, Tivo may improve functionality & UI performance over time.

I don't quite get, with this better hardware, why Tivo can't use the USB port for a thumb drive or external hard drive so I can get the functionality of WDTV, O Play, etc...???


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## patatrox (Nov 30, 2006)

alokkola said:


> I don't quite get, with this better hardware, why Tivo can't use the USB port for a thumb drive or external hard drive so I can get the functionality of WDTV, O Play, etc...???


The TiVo HD spreads recordings out across any drives you have connected, and you can't choose where recordings go. The result of allowing thumb drives would be that you'd lose recordings when you unplugged it.

On the hard drive side, I know that you have drives marketed as "desktop" drives and "server" drives - the difference (I believe) being expected lifetime and designed for an always-on scenario. The WD Extender drives also run cooler than most external hard drives I've ever used.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be great to be able to plug-in any drive at all, but the decision makes sense at at least some level.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I'm not too surprised at the review. It didn't say anything that hasn't been said here in the forum before.

I AM surprised that the UI is still not any faster than the TiVo Search beta UI. That's a puzzler.

Other than that, I will just reiterate that I don't think the Premiere is aimed as an upgrade for current S3/THD users. It's meant to get new users in, and for adding to existing TiVos, not replace them. It might or might not do that, but the UI speed isn't helping.

I know if I was in the market for a TiVo, there's no way I'd buy anything other than a Premiere.


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## alokkola (Apr 18, 2006)

patatrox said:


> The TiVo HD spreads recordings out across any drives you have connected, and you can't choose where recordings go. The result of allowing thumb drives would be that you'd lose recordings when you unplugged it.
> 
> On the hard drive side, I know that you have drives marketed as "desktop" drives and "server" drives - the difference (I believe) being expected lifetime and designed for an always-on scenario. The WD Extender drives also run cooler than most external hard drives I've ever used.
> 
> I'm not saying it wouldn't be great to be able to plug-in any drive at all, but the decision makes sense at at least some level.


The way I am imagining is to keep the USB drive separate and not to be used for Tivo recordings. However, when a drive is hooked on this USB, it should show up as an external or plugin drive in the "Now Playing" list; just like you see folder for Netflix or MRV Tivos. Then you can plugin a USB drive and play files with supported formats on Tivo. bkdtv's review says BCM7413 supports DIVX.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

fatlard said:


> Look at the Moxi. Although a lot of people here like to bash the Moxi because of me, it is quite a good device. It will work especially well for you if you need HD dvr in multiple rooms.
> 
> http://moxi.com/us/home.html


 Moxi is a non-starter for me because:
1. No To Go functionality
2. Lack of advanced wishlists (no other DVR on market or even MCE has this currently other than TiVo unfortunately).


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

Still keeping my preorder. May add another. Yes, the interface speed sucks, but that was obvious from the launch party. the Selling point for me is three things:

1. Pre order discount plus S3 ebay means I get the new platform for about $50-$100 after I sell the S3(s).

2. I can shut off the new interface until they get it working right.

3. I can enjoy HD transfer speeds that are actually decent instead of the crappy HD transfer speed on the original S3's we have.

Disappointed, but not surprised about TiVo's lame-duck launch. Still getting it.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

curiousgeorge said:


> 1. Pre order discount plus S3 ebay means I get the new platform for about $50-$100 after I sell the S3(s).


 I didn't find anywhere that states the 50% off lifetime discount is good for pre-orders only. I'm assuming that offer is going to be around for a while and not just for pre-orders but I could be wrong. Here's the text related to the offer when I login to tivo.com with no mention of pre-order special anywhere:


> Our customer's feedback has been loud and clear. They want a low priced Product Lifetime service (PLS) on Premiere. We listened. Now existing PLS customers can get an exclusive Upgrade Program discount: 50% off a new PLS plan (a savings of $200) when upgrading to Premiere. Enjoy your new box.


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## propeciakid (Sep 26, 2008)

moyekj said:


> Moxi is a non-starter for me because:
> 1. No To Go functionality
> 2. Lack of advanced wishlists (no other DVR on market or even MCE has this currently other than TiVo unfortunately).


Same here and also no support for OTA. I would miss that.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

moyekj said:


> I didn't find anywhere that states the 50% off lifetime discount is good for pre-orders only. I'm assuming that offer is going to be around for a while and not just for pre-orders but I could be wrong. Here's the text related to the offer when I login to tivo.com with no mention of pre-order special anywhere:


No way to know, and I'm not missing out. Also, if I sell the S3s now while people are still seeking them instead of the S4, I'll make more of the cost back. More horsepower, faster MRV transfers, old interface still accessible if you don't want to slog through the crappy new interface lag-a-thon? Buy for me.


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## flaminiom (Dec 27, 2008)

propeciakid said:


> Same here and also no support for OTA. I would miss that.


No OTA? Didn't realize that. Forget that then.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

flaminiom said:


> No OTA? Didn't realize that. Forget that then.


I'm quite fond of the Moxi multi-room experience. But no OTA and no VOD service is holding me back from making a purchase. ($1000 and no fees for 3 rooms seems like a decent deal.) I don't actually use OTA, but I like knowing I can escape the cableco if I need to. I use Amazon VOD and Netflix often enough on my TiVo that I'd miss them. Actually, Netflix has a buffering problem compared to my Xbox and Roku.


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## ckelly33 (Oct 30, 2004)

curiousgeorge said:


> 2. I can shut off the new interface until they get it working right.


Is this for sure? I have three on preorder....if this is true I'll keep it.

Like most everyone else, I'm not that impressed, but (again) like most everyone else - picking one up with the option to sell my current ones on ebay has left very little out of pocket.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Yeah you will be able to use the classic UI which will still be optimized for SD or you can use the new HD UI. Some of the new features won't work on the classic UI though like the discovery bar.


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## Chip Chanko (Nov 7, 2005)

For those saying it would have been better for TiVo to wait until the UI was finished to release the Premiere, don't you think anyone who would have bought a TiVo HD between now and then would have rather had the opportunity to buy hardware that the finished UI could run on? I think TiVo did the right thing releasing it now. They may have gone about the release wrong but in the end they're doing a favor to anyone who would have bought a TiVo HD.

Based on bkdtv's review it sounds like their reason for using flashlite was sound (to better integrate with 3rd party apps that already use it) and most of the complaints from other reviews in the media are about things that will be fixed. Maybe TiVo should have kept the HD UI under wraps until it was complete, but then everyone would be complaining that the new hardware doesn't have a new UI yet.

Personally I'm keeping my HD and seeing how things progress.


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## flaminiom (Dec 27, 2008)

Chip Chanko said:


> For those saying it would have been better for TiVo to wait until the UI was finished to release the Premiere, don't you think anyone who would have bought a TiVo HD between now and then would have rather had the opportunity to buy hardware that the finished UI could run on? I think TiVo did the right thing releasing it now. They may have gone about the release wrong but in the end they're doing a favor to anyone who would have bought a TiVo HD.


How do you think the people that bought a HD the last few months feel? That argument works for any product launch at any time. It is, what it is.


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## Chip Chanko (Nov 7, 2005)

flaminiom said:


> How do you think the people that bought a HD the last few months feel? That argument works for any product launch at any time. It is, what it is.


My argument wasn't for people who bought and HD before the premiere was released. I'm saying that this way, TiVo cuts down on how many of those people there are. I was mostly reacting to complaints about the UI being incomplete at the time of the premiere's release.


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## flaminiom (Dec 27, 2008)

Chip Chanko said:


> My argument wasn't for people who bought and HD before the premiere was released. I'm saying that this way, TiVo cuts down on how many of those people there are. I was mostly reacting to complaints about the UI being incomplete at the time of the premiere's release.


Why not release it with the old UI three months ago? What I mean is no matter when you release a product, recent customers will likely have buyer's remorse. That's all.

Similarly, however, they probably want to get this thing out the door to keep Tivo users from bailing to something else.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Everything else would be a step backwards or not as easy to use.


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## DaveWhittle (Jul 25, 2002)

"_There's no integrated Wi-Fi or Bluetooth._"

No Bluetooth really? How is it going to work with the upcoming remote -- a plug-in dongle?


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

DaveWhittle said:


> "_There's no integrated Wi-Fi or Bluetooth._"
> 
> No Bluetooth really? How is it going to work with the upcoming remote -- a plug-in dongle?


Yup.

Instead of putting a $6 chip in the box that would have done both 802.11G wi-fi AND bluetooth they are making you plug in a USB dongle. Worse, there isn't one dongle that will do both wi-fi and bluetooth, you will have to plug two things into your USB ports if you require both wi-fi and bluetooth.


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## DaveWhittle (Jul 25, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> Instead of putting a $6 chip in the box that would have done both 802.11G wi-fi AND bluetooth they are making you plug in a USB dongle. Worse, there isn't one dongle that will do both wi-fi and bluetooth, you will have to plug two things into your USB ports if you require both wi-fi and bluetooth.


That's a shame, but I guess if Tivo hopes to sell a million Premieres, then that decision was a $6 million dollar savings.  The lack of that chip might loose a couple sales, but _very_ few.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

DaveWhittle said:


> That's a shame, but I guess if Tivo hopes to sell a million Premieres, then that decision was a $6 million dollar savings.  The lack of that chip might loose a couple sales, but _very_ few.


Well, look at it this way. Most customers don't have CAT5 to their entertainment areas where the TiVo would be connected. Those customers have to shell out an extra $99 for the $25 wireless adapter TiVo is selling. To add insult to injury this adapter is not even an 802.11n adapter that would actually give decent performance for transfers or hoped future streaming.

So, for many people this just became a $399 box instead of a $299 box. That will cost TiVo more than a "couple" of sales, especially since the Premiere seems aimed more at recruiting fresh customers vs. upgrading current TiVo owners.

Remember, the TiVo has to be sooo much better than the set top boxes people already have that they are willing to spend $300 or $400 (or more) for it in addition to the monthly or annual recurring service fees (or lifetime).

Three years ago when you look at the competition that was a no brainer. The problem is that the competition isn't sleeping. Dish Network, Motorola and others have been paying attention and their boxes are getting better. A product like Moxi would have had no chance competing against TiVo a few years ago but now that TiVo has effectively stood still for three years Moxi has an opening... especially if they can get their own updated box out before the end of this year.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> Three years ago when you look at the competition that was a no brainer. The problem is that the competition isn't sleeping. Dish Network, Motorola and others have been paying attention and their boxes are getting better. A product like Moxi would have had no chance competing against TiVo a few years ago but now that TiVo has effectively stood still for three years Moxi has an opening... especially if they can get their own updated box out before the end of this year.


If the competition is nipping at TiVo's heels, where are their DVRs with comparable hardware? It seems TiVo has hit the market first again with the best hardware available (at the time of mass production).


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> If the competition is nipping at TiVo's heels, where are their DVRs with comparable hardware? It seems TiVo has hit the market first again with the best hardware available (at the time of mass production).


The new TiVo hardware looks good but the software looks a long, long way from unlocking the potential.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> The new TiVo hardware looks good but the software looks a long, long way from unlocking the potential.


That's a fine response, but doesn't answer the question...


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

DaveWhittle said:


> "_There's no integrated Wi-Fi or Bluetooth._"
> 
> No Bluetooth really? How is it going to work with the upcoming remote -- a plug-in dongle?


Yep and the reason why is that the new remote will work with the existing TiVo HD and S3 models as well. They don't have bluetooth built in either. Easiest way to make the new remote compatible with multiple platforms is through software and a dongle.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

jmpage2 said:


> Well, look at it this way. Most customers don't have CAT5 to their entertainment areas where the TiVo would be connected. Those customers have to shell out an extra $99 for the $25 wireless adapter TiVo is selling. To add insult to injury this adapter is not even an 802.11n adapter that would actually give decent performance for transfers or hoped future streaming.


You may want to check your prices. The wireless G adapter is only 59.99 from TiVo.com. Also I would guess it might be like the B adapter and have its own chip for handling the transfer load. If I remember correctly the B adapter saw speeds close to a wired setup due to the extra chip in the adapter. Personally I am wired since wireless doesn't work reliably in my house.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> You may want to check your prices. The wireless G adapter is only 59.99 from TiVo.com. Also I would guess it might be like the B adapter and have its own chip for handling the transfer load. If I remember correctly the B adapter saw speeds close to a wired setup due to the extra chip in the adapter. Personally I am wired since wireless doesn't work reliably in my house.


There is no such thing as a wireless-B interface that approaches the speeds of a wired setup.

It might be that in the case of the TiVo since it was bottlenecked in hardware/software that you could get speeds of their B interface that were close to saturating their bottleneck.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> That's a fine response, but doesn't answer the question...


The Moxi hardware is only marginally slower than the hardware in the Premiere. Not to mention that Moxi is able to wring three tuners out of that hardware where as TiVo is doing just two.

So, maybe the software is more important after all?

I would love to see a TiVo interface that was all new, written to use the power in the new box, but sadly won't be happening... at least not this year.


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## steinbch (Nov 23, 2007)

jmpage2 said:


> Those customers have to shell out an extra $99 for the $25 wireless adapter TiVo is selling. To add insult to injury this adapter is not even an 802.11n adapter that would actually give decent performance for transfers or hoped future streaming.


I think it made sense for TiVo to not include the bluetooth or wireless. How many people are honestly going to buy the QWERTY remote? Maybe 1/4 or 1/3? That means that TiVo would have had to eat the cost of putting the bluetooth remote in each of the TiVos that don't have it. If the bluetooth chip cost even 3 dollars, that adds up to a TON of money if they are expecting big sales (and similar, if not the same, production process for the RCN boxes).

Then we get to the wireless. I'm sure TiVo looked at the number of wireless adapters that they've sold and examined what percentage of TiVos are not hooked up off the same line as the cable modem. Again it came down to the cost versus the number of extra units that would sell because of it. I don't think there are any NEW customers that are deciding against getting a Premiere because it lacks bluetooth or wireless.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

TrueTurbo said:


> Yep and the reason why is that the new remote will work with the existing TiVo HD and S3 models as well. They don't have bluetooth built in either. Easiest way to make the new remote compatible with multiple platforms is through software and a dongle.


I don't think we have confirmation that the BT remote is going to work with S3 or the HD TiVo.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

steinbch said:


> I think it made sense for TiVo to not include the bluetooth or wireless. How many people are honestly going to buy the QWERTY remote? Maybe 1/4 or 1/3? That means that TiVo would have had to eat the cost of putting the bluetooth remote in each of the TiVos that don't have it. If the bluetooth chip cost even 3 dollars, that adds up to a TON of money if they are expecting big sales (and similar, if not the same, production process for the RCN boxes).
> 
> Then we get to the wireless. I'm sure TiVo looked at the number of wireless adapters that they've sold and examined what percentage of TiVos are not hooked up off the same line as the cable modem. Again it came down to the cost versus the number of extra units that would sell because of it. I don't think there are any NEW customers that are deciding against getting a Premiere because it lacks bluetooth or wireless.


Spoken like a true accountant slash bean counter.

Everything you've said might very well be true. TiVo could have done cost/benefit analysis to make this determination.

The problem is it doesn't matter. You put the $5 technology in your box so that you have some ammo in feature comparisons, tech reviews, etc.

Not to mention, people hate a mess. They don't like dongles hanging around all over the place. Would have gotten some good will from people to build it in, the cost is only going to go down over time, to the point where it becomes almost negligible.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> Yup.
> 
> Instead of putting a $6 chip in the box that would have done both 802.11G wi-fi AND bluetooth they are making you plug in a USB dongle. Worse, there isn't one dongle that will do both wi-fi and bluetooth, you will have to plug two things into your USB ports if you require both wi-fi and bluetooth.


Wow! That sucks. Even my Wii has integrated WiFi and Bluetooth, and it was launched over three years ago!

There are USB adapters that do both for PCs, it's just that Tivo doesn't have one ready to go at launch. Maybe when the keyboard remote launches? But what do new customers do, spend $70 on Wifi only and later spend another $70 for the combo?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

jmpage2 said:


> There is no such thing as a wireless-B interface that approaches the speeds of a wired setup.
> 
> It might be that in the case of the TiVo since it was bottlenecked in hardware/software that you could get speeds of their B interface that were close to saturating their bottleneck.


Yes that is what I was saying. The TiVo has always been limited by the chipset and I don't believe it exceeded the speed of wireless B but I may be wrong. I know when I found the adapters on clearance at Radio Shack I almost picked them up but I was able to wire my house so I ended up not needing them. I haven't looked into wireless since so I may be off a little, but I swear I read wired was only a slight improvement over the TiVo adapter previously.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> Wow! That sucks. Even my Wii has integrated WiFi and Bluetooth, and it was launched over three years ago!
> 
> There are USB adapters that do both for PCs, it's just that Tivo doesn't have one ready to go at launch. Maybe when the keyboard remote launches? But what do new customers do, spend $70 on Wifi only and later spend another $70 for the combo?


The Wii uses 802.11 G doesn't it? So it needs to be compared to the $59 price of the TiVo.com wireless G adapter(not the $99 wireless N adataper)

Although the TiVo wireless G adapter is actually under $39 at amazon. Which is much less than a few years ago.

$99 is certainly steep for the TiVo wireless N adapter. When I can get a Dlink DAP 1522 wireless Bridge that works on 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz and also has four gigabit ports for less than the TiVo wireless N adapter. It can also be set as an access point or a wireless Bridge. I use six of them and they have no issues getting 150mbs+ thorughput with wireless N at 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

jmpage2 said:


> Well, look at it this way. Most customers don't have CAT5 to their entertainment areas where the TiVo would be connected. Those customers have to shell out an extra $99 for the $25 wireless adapter TiVo is selling. To add insult to injury this adapter is not even an 802.11n adapter that would actually give decent performance for transfers or hoped future streaming.


Another way to look at this is that maybe 'most' customers don't have CAT5 or CAT6 wiring in their homes now, but I'd lay odds that 'many' of those customers are thinking about laying some down. A lot of entertainment devices are converging towards full online access via ethernet. You can connect them all individually over wifi if you like, or you can connect them, interference free, over faster wired ethernet, with not much effort.

You don't have to dig into your walls to lay ethernet cable unless you want to. Personally, I spent an hour one day just laying a 100 foot CAT6 extension cable, from my office (where my cable modem is) to my living room, by pushing it under the base boards. You can't see it and I now have cheap Netgear, 8-port, Gb switches at each end providing fast ethernet connectivity.

Another option is instead of using individual wifi connections from every device is to set up a wireless ethernet bridge. I connected my TiVo this way for years before I went ahead and cabled a network. Wireless ethernet bridges are cheap, readily available (from stores like Best Buy), easy to setup and allow you to connect multiple devices (like a TiVo), without having to buy individual wifi adapters.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

jmpage2 said:


> The Moxi hardware is only marginally slower than the hardware in the Premiere. Not to mention that Moxi is able to wring three tuners out of that hardware where as TiVo is doing just two.
> 
> So, maybe the software is more important after all?


TiVo also could have gone with four tuners if they dropped OTA, but based off the number of people who use them for OTA it wouldn't make sense. Now if they had offered a 4 tuner model without OTA and the current Premiere I would have bought those instead. 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7829495#post7829495


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

jmpage2 said:


> I don't think we have confirmation that the BT remote is going to work with S3 or the HD TiVo.


You have no confirmation that it won't, either. I do remember reading about the remote when it was announced and the article I read said it would work with the TiVo HD and S3 as well. That's good enough for me, for now.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

For a comparison I guess head on over to avsforum and see the huge fit/fuss people threw about all the Blu-ray Players that didn't have wi-fi integrated in the last couple of years.

This year? It's becoming standard on many of the mid-level and up products.

As I said, it's just another way to demonstrate that your product is a flagship from a technical perspective, it's not about whether 10 or 20&#37; of users will turn the feature on or utilize it.

And yes, I was mistaken about the cost of the G adapter... I had thought it was $99. I must be thinking of the N adapter that TiVo doesn't have ready yet and will start up-selling people into later this year.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

TrueTurbo said:


> Another way to look at this is that maybe 'most' customers don't have CAT5 or CAT6 wiring in their homes now, but I'd lay odds that 'many' of those customers are thinking about laying some down. A lot of entertainment devices are converging towards full online access via ethernet. You can connect them all individually over wifi if you like, or you can connect them, interference free, over faster wired ethernet, with not much effort.


I don't have to lay any CAT5 down, all my other devices have integrated Wi-Fi in them.

Also, for a box that prides itself in seamlessly connecting to the Internet to download videos, the fact that it actually can't do that without buying more hardware first may cause confusion/anger.


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## Jimbo713 (Dec 25, 2001)

Anybody remember back when TiVo first shipped the DirecTiVo and only ONE tuner was activated? Then (and the anticipation was HUGE), they updated the software to get the second tuner working. That's exactly how I figure it's going to be when they upgrade the software to activate the second processor core.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> TiVo also could have gone with four tuners if they dropped OTA, but based off the number of people who use them for OTA it wouldn't make sense. Now if they had offered a 4 tuner model without OTA and the current Premiere I would have bought those instead.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7829495#post7829495


So why not offer a software switch to select between OTA for those that need it and more tuners for the many many people that get all of their programming over Cable?


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## greensky (Mar 3, 2010)

> That's exactly how I figure it's going to be when they upgrade the software to activate the second processor core.


I can't wait. That's going to be the day I purchase mine. With the sorry state of the software now I'm a bit concerned they'll never make it there.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Maybe you misread the post. The chips they went with include 1 tuner for OTA and 1 for QAM on each chip so they are using all the tuners offered. No software switch would fix this.

They would have had to go with other chips to offer more tuners at the loss of OTA tuners.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> Maybe you misread the post. The chips they went with include 1 tuner for OTA and 1 for QAM on each chip so they are using all the tuners offered. No software switch would fix this.
> 
> They would have had to go with other chips to offer more tuners at the loss of OTA tuners.


Bummer.

Maybe they'll come out with another box based on this new platform if the sales are weak that will have 3 tuners for cable.


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

BobCamp1 said:


> I don't have to lay any CAT5 down, all my other devices have integrated Wi-Fi in them.
> 
> Also, for a box that prides itself in seamlessly connecting to the Internet to download videos, the fact that it actually can't do that without buying more hardware first may cause confusion/anger.


I'm so happy for you. 

Only 1 of my devices has built in wi-fi: Logitech SqueezeBox Player. All my others don't: Oppo BDP-80 Blu-Ray Player; X-Box 360; TiVo HD; SlingBox Solo. Could I replace any of these with devices that had built in wi-fi? Possibly. Would any of the replacements be as good as what I have? Doubt it. Does wi-fi suffer drop-outs, signal strength and bandwidth issues from time to time? Yes. Do I have any drop-out, connection or bandwidth issues using wired ethernet? Nope.


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

jmpage2 said:


> So why not offer a software switch to select between OTA for those that need it and more tuners for the many many people that get all of their programming over Cable?


There was a post on this forum not too long ago that did a nice job of describing the technical issues of the different chipsets and the impact it all has on motherboard design, features and costs. If you search, you should be able to find it.

From what I recall there's no technical reason why TiVo couldn't build a box with 3 or 4 cable tuners and an OTA tuner as well, but there is significant increased cost involved. That's why the Moxi 3 cable tuner model costs what it does. Add in an OTA tuner as well and the cost goes up. I suspect TiVo crunched the numbers while doing research on their customer base and decided a 2 cable tuner + OTA tuner design is the demographic sweet spot at the price typical TiVo customers are willing to pay.

People who want 3 cable tuners and are not interested in OTA recordings can spend a little more and buy a Moxi. We live in a free market economy.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

jmpage2 said:


> Yup.
> 
> Instead of putting a $6 chip in the box that would have done both 802.11G wi-fi AND bluetooth they are making you plug in a USB dongle. Worse, there isn't one dongle that will do both wi-fi and bluetooth, you will have to plug two things into your USB ports if you require both wi-fi and bluetooth.


The upcoming Wireless N adapter will plug in via Ethernet, not USB.


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## paulnelson20 (Oct 18, 2007)

CuriousMark said:


> The upcoming Wireless N adapter will plug in via Ethernet, not USB.


Also, in theory, you shouldn't be limited to TiVo's adapter, any wireless bridge should work iirc.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> Bummer.
> 
> Maybe they'll come out with another box based on this new platform if the sales are weak that will have 3 tuners for cable.


Moxis are back ordered from what I hear


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

CuriousMark said:


> The upcoming Wireless N adapter will plug in via Ethernet, not USB.


Ooo, that means that it's really a wireless bridge then. It would be cool if you could put a switch in front of the new Wireless N adapter and have it serve multiple devices!


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Moxis are back ordered from what I hear


Amazon has them available for next day delivery still.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

TrueTurbo said:


> Ooo, that means that it's really a wireless bridge then. It would be cool if you could put a switch in front of the new Wireless N adapter and have it serve multiple devices!


How is this a good thing .. I regularly get 130Mb connection on my wireless N with my laptop .. Tivo is going to be further limited by the 100mb cheapo lan card they put in the premier. Is there anything they didnt cut corners with ?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

riekl said:


> How is this a good thing .. I regularly get 130Mb connection on my wireless N with my laptop .. Tivo is going to be further limited by the 100mb cheapo lan card they put in the premier. Is there anything they didnt cut corners with ?


How many devices have a gigabit connection? I've been running a gigabit network at home since 2001, and still the majority of devices only have a 100mbs connection.
A 100mbs connection is still the norm for consumer devices.


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## flaminiom (Dec 27, 2008)

BobCamp1 said:


> I don't have to lay any CAT5 down, all my other devices have integrated Wi-Fi in them.
> 
> Also, for a box that prides itself in seamlessly connecting to the Internet to download videos, the fact that it actually can't do that without buying more hardware first may cause confusion/anger.


I recently wired my house with cat6 and a Gb router. WiFi is convenient, but the 2.4 GHz band is getting crowded. Thinking specifically of Netflix, wired is the way to go, and even more so with increased VOD content.

I agree Premier should have WiFi because most living rooms aren't wired. My point though is that doesn't mean they shouldn't be wired for Tivo.



riekl said:


> How is this a good thing .. I regularly get 130Mb connection on my wireless N with my laptop .. Tivo is going to be further limited by the 100mb cheapo lan card they put in the premier. Is there anything they didnt cut corners with ?


It doesn't matter. 100 Mb is plenty fast enough to view HD in real time. Yeah, it would be nice if it was Gb and then my switch light would be green instead of amber, but that's about all it would do for me. Of all the things to pound the table about, this is pretty far down the list.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

riekl said:


> How is this a good thing .. I regularly get 130Mb connection on my wireless N with my laptop .. Tivo is going to be further limited by the 100mb cheapo lan card they put in the premier. Is there anything they didnt cut corners with ?


What exactly do you expect to fill the pipe with coming to/going from the TiVo that's going to exceed 100mbps?


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

riekl said:


> How is this a good thing .. I regularly get 130Mb connection on my wireless N with my laptop .. Tivo is going to be further limited by the 100mb cheapo lan card they put in the premier. Is there anything they didnt cut corners with ?


Huh!? You do know that your 130Mb wireless connection speed doesn't actually mean that your laptop is streaming data at 130Mb/s, right? You do understand that your connection speed represents the maximum bandwidth you might obtain if you ever actually ran anything that could utilize that bandwidth, yes? 

You should do a little research on networks and streaming media bandwidths. You'll discover that current broadband streaming technologies don't even come close to maxing out a 10/100Mb connection.

Oh and by the way, when I connect to my Wireless-N router, my laptop averages a connection speed of around 210Mb. That must mean my PC is about 160% faster than yours, right?


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

I think going forward we will see more and more homes being wired for ethernet. I know in my area when I work in the more affluent areas all the newer homes are wired up.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Mike-Mike said:


> I think going forward we will see more and more homes being wired for ethernet. I know in my area when I work in the more affluent areas all the newer homes are wired up.


It's been an option in many homes for several years, even in more "regular" areas. I just think most people haven't opted to get it, except for the geeks. 

But I think you're right that today it's probably more common, even though Wi-Fi technology is better than ever.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

MickeS said:


> It's been an option in many homes for several years, even in more "regular" areas. I just think most people haven't opted to get it, except for the geeks.
> 
> But I think you're right that today it's probably more common, even though Wi-Fi technology is better than ever.


Most people don't get it because they charge an exorbitant amount to have your house wired up when being built.

Most of the people I know opted to run the wiring themselves while the house was being built to save the thousands of dollars they wanted to charge. That was assuming the builder would let them do it, which was not always the case.

So they ended up only paying a few hundred instead of several thousand to wire the entire house with Cat6. or Cat5e.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Mike-Mike said:


> I think going forward we will see more and more homes being wired for ethernet.


I disagree. Wireless is the future. We're not there yet with 802.11n, but I predict that a couple of generations down the road, we will be.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

MickeS said:


> It's been an option in many homes for several years, even in more "regular" areas. I just think most people haven't opted to get it, except for the geeks.
> 
> But I think you're right that today it's probably more common, even though Wi-Fi technology is better than ever.


It's an 'option' for people who specifically know they want it and take the time to go find a contractor to do it. Builders are not pre-wiring cat5/6 at least not in the mid-west.

My subdivision is still being built, these aren't low end homes, average is around 2400sq feet. Not a single one has ethernet wiring or is it even offered by the builder. It is still a niche product you have to request and usually find your own source.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

TrueTurbo said:


> Huh!? You do know that your 130Mb wireless connection speed doesn't actually mean that your laptop is streaming data at 130Mb/s, right? You do understand that your connection speed represents the maximum bandwidth you might obtain if you ever actually ran anything that could utilize that bandwidth, yes?
> 
> You should do a little research on networks and streaming media bandwidths. You'll discover that current broadband streaming technologies don't even come close to maxing out a 10/100Mb connection.
> 
> Oh and by the way, when I connect to my Wireless-N router, my laptop averages a connection speed of around 210Mb. That must mean my PC is about 160% faster than yours, right?


First, I'm a network engineer so .. I know what I'm talking about 

I have no trouble transfering between my desk pc and my laptop at 14MB / sec which means that yes, I AM getting 130Mb throughput.

There is no reason for Tivo Premier to be shipping with such antiqued hardware.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> Most people don't get it because they charge an exorbitant amount to have your house wired up when being built.
> 
> Most of the people I know opted to run the wiring themselves while the house was being built to save the thousands of dollars they wanted to charge. That was assuming the builder would let them do it, which was not always the case.
> 
> So they ended up only paying a few hundred instead of several thousand to wire the entire house with Cat6. or Cat5e.


This isn't usually the case for custom built houses, but yeah on cookie cutter houses this does seem to be the case. I know at work when one of the girls was building their house the company wanted $75 per line which is outrageous since that is what most companies charge to fish the line after a home is built.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

orangeboy said:


> What exactly do you expect to fill the pipe with coming to/going from the TiVo that's going to exceed 100mbps?


Uh .. streaming between tivo's ? Downloading show's to my PC that won't take all day ? I could easily max out a gig connection to a tivo so no, 100mb doesn't satisfy anymore especially not for a box that prides itself on its media transport abilities.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> How many devices have a gigabit connection? I've been running a gigabit network at home since 2001, and still the majority of devices only have a 100mbs connection.
> A 100mbs connection is still the norm for consumer devices.


I'm not sure what you've been buying, but the opposite is true for me. Everything in my network is gig, except, the damn tivo, including the cheapo wd tv live.

100mbs is fine for devices whos primary purpose isn't transfering around multi gig video files.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

riekl said:


> I'm not sure what you've been buying, but the opposite is true for me. Everything in my network is gig, except, the damn tivo, including the cheapo wd tv live.
> 
> 100mbs is fine for devices whos primary purpose isn't transfering around multi gig video files.


You may want to check that WDTV live again. It only has 10/100 from what I have read since just like the TiVo it is limited by the chip inside.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

riekl said:


> Uh .. streaming between tivo's ? Downloading show's to my PC that won't take all day ? I could easily max out a gig connection to a tivo so no, 100mb doesn't satisfy anymore especially not for a box that prides itself on its media transport abilities.


TiVo doesn't stream in the way you describe. MRV transfers are queued up, transferring one file at a time. Transfers _pushed_ to the TiVo are queued up through the TiVo mind servers back at the mothership, so at most you'll have 2 files coming into the box, which will not fill the pipe. I'm uncertain of limitations for _pulls_ initiated from a PC, but regardless you still won't be _streaming_ that content anyway.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TrueTurbo said:


> Huh!? You do know that your 130Mb wireless connection speed doesn't actually mean that your laptop is streaming data at 130Mb/s, right? You do understand that your connection speed represents the maximum bandwidth you might obtain if you ever actually ran anything that could utilize that bandwidth, yes?
> 
> You should do a little research on networks and streaming media bandwidths. You'll discover that current broadband streaming technologies don't even come close to maxing out a 10/100Mb connection.
> 
> Oh and by the way, when I connect to my Wireless-N router, my laptop averages a connection speed of around 210Mb. That must mean my PC is about 160% faster than yours, right?


I have no issues on my Wireless N(2.4Ghz and 5Ghz) network getting 150mbs throughput speed. 
The connection will show 300mbs but that has nothing to do with the throughput. Througput as measured by Bandwidth Monitor will show 150mbs+.

This has been the case for a while on my network. It is easily faster than any 100mbs wired connection. Although I've been running a gigabit network at home since 2001.

If your wireless network is not getting these speeds you might need to do some research. Every wireless N(2.4Ghz and 5Ghz) network I have setup easily exceeds 100mbs throughput. Now if you go with a barebone wireless router I can see where you might think that wireless N is slower than a 100mbs network.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> TiVo doesn't stream in the way you describe. MRV transfers are queued up, transferring one file at a time. Transfers _pushed_ to the TiVo are queued up through the TiVo mind servers back at the mothership, so at most you'll have 2 files coming into the box, which will not fill the pipe. I'm uncertain of limitations for _pulls_ initiated from a PC, but regardless you still won't be _streaming_ that content anyway.


From my PC I can pull from all my current boxes concurrently. I would expect the same thing from the Premieres. Although with the faster transfer speeds, my RAID5 probably won't keep up since it maxes out around 500mbs when writing.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

orangeboy said:


> TiVo doesn't stream in the way you describe. MRV transfers are queued up, transferring one file at a time. Transfers _pushed_ to the TiVo are queued up through the TiVo mind servers back at the mothership, so at most you'll have 2 files coming into the box, which will not fill the pipe. I'm uncertain of limitations for _pulls_ initiated from a PC, but regardless you still won't be _streaming_ that content anyway.


Right .. thats how it does it today .. which is horribly antiquated, there is no technical reason the tivo can't transfer multiple shows at once, there is no reason it can't make use of gigabit network to actually allow us to move our shows in a timely manner.

I get so frustrated with my 2 Tivo HD's, I record something in the living room, if i decide to watch it in the bedroom i have to :

a) wait for the recording to finish (grr !) 
b) Start the transfer at least 15 minutes before i intend to start watching it, and closer to 30 if i intend to skip commercials.

Both limitations are deal breakers for multi room viewing. Uverse does this flawlessly .. Moxi does it 'ok' why can't tivo do it at all ?


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Defending TiVos failure to implementing streaming between boxes is simply laughable. Streaming should be totally implementable on the Series-4 and would fix a lot of hangups, such as the ability to stream a recording that is in progress and also the ability to watch programs with the copy protection flag set in another room.

The current implementation is just flat out antique. TiVo needs to get streaming working, pronto.

I was pretty much expecting streaming in this product iteration, I just wasn't sure if they would offer an extender to receive streaming (and maybe manage recordings or delete programs off the main box)... I was rather floored when they didn't add it.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> Defending TiVos failure to implementing streaming between boxes is simply laughable. Streaming should be totally implementable on the Series-4 and would fix a lot of hangups, such as the ability to stream a recording that is in progress and also the ability to watch programs with the copy protection flag set in another room.
> 
> The current implementation is just flat out antique. TiVo needs to get streaming working, pronto.
> 
> I was pretty much expecting streaming in this product iteration, I just wasn't sure if they would offer an extender to receive streaming (and maybe manage recordings or delete programs off the main box)... I was rather floored when they didn't add it.


Um, who's defending it?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

riekl said:


> Right .. thats how it does it today .. which is horribly antiquated, there is no technical reason the tivo can't transfer multiple shows at once, there is no reason it can't make use of gigabit network to actually allow us to move our shows in a timely manner.
> 
> I get so frustrated with my 2 Tivo HD's, I record something in the living room, if i decide to watch it in the bedroom i have to :
> 
> ...


I don't have those issues with my TiVoHDs or S3 units. They all transfer HD in much faster than realtime between each other.

I can start watching a transfer right away and as long as the first commercial break is a few minutes away, I can skip through all of the commercials too.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> I don't have those issues with my TiVoHDs or S3 units. They all transfer HD in much faster than realtime between each other.
> 
> I can start watching a transfer right away and as long as the first commercial break is a few minutes away, I can skip through all of the commercials too.


So you have magicked up a way to transfer an in progress recording ? Please do share ..

Since you haven't, you do have at least THAT problem which is a MAJOR one. The second one may be specific to my setup but I find that hard to believe since i've gone as far as hooking the 2 tivo's to the same switch (and even used 2 different switches) changed cabling etc and the recordings of HD material is not faster then realtime, at best it is equal to real time.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

jmpage2 said:


> The current implementation is just flat out antique. TiVo needs to get streaming working, pronto.
> 
> I was pretty much expecting streaming in this product iteration, I just wasn't sure if they would offer an extender to receive streaming (and maybe manage recordings or delete programs off the main box)... I was rather floored when they didn't add it.


Absolutely!

How can you claim to have re-invented the DVR when you have not even matched the competition. Yikes!

My Pronto has gotten my TiVo working for quite a while 

- Rich


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

riekl said:


> So you have magicked up a way to transfer an in progress recording ? Please do share ..
> 
> Since you haven't, you do have at least THAT problem which is a MAJOR one. The second one may be specific to my setup but I find that hard to believe since i've gone as far as hooking the 2 tivo's to the same switch (and even used 2 different switches) changed cabling etc and the recordings of HD material is not faster then realtime, at best it is equal to real time.


I'm talking about the transfer rate. Obviously I can't transfer a recording until it's finished.

At my girlfreinds, she has the TiVo wireless G adapters and they only transfer at slightly faster than realtime for HD . With wired, it is much much faster.

My Network is all gigabit and I have the TiVos(and PC with TiVo Desktop) separated on it's own leg on several gigabit switches so they don't need to go through the router unless downloading from the internet.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

It's true that TiVo needs to improve their MRV and fix the CCI byte problem. But I wouldn't trade streaming for TTG, which is something streaming only solutions don't provide.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

RichB said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> How can you claim to have re-invented the DVR when you have not even matched the competition. Yikes!
> 
> ...


Zoiks!










I prefer having my TiVo and home entertainment system working together in Harmony!


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

nrc said:


> It's true that TiVo needs to improve their MRV and fix the CCI byte problem. But I wouldn't trade streaming for TTG, which is something streaming only solutions don't provide.


Why do they need to give up TTG if they add streaming? 

You just add it as another choice in the transfer menu and potentially open up the possibility of streaming to 3rd party devices like iPads, laptops, etc.

TTG doesn't vanish in a puff of smoke just because they offer a modern alternative.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

jmpage2 said:


> Why do they need to give up TTG if they add streaming?
> 
> You just add it as another choice in the transfer menu and potentially open up the possibility of streaming to 3rd party devices like iPads, laptops, etc.
> 
> TTG doesn't vanish in a puff of smoke just because they offer a modern alternative.


Exactly. Streaming and co-op between tivos is the biggest thing killing Tivo. I actually went to Uverse for about 4 months and while i went back to cable because of price, it was VERY nice to be able to watch my shows in any room of the house with no delay/lag of any kind. It just 'worked' even over wireless !

TTG is nice, but the customer base that wants TTG i suspect is much smaller then the customer base that wants streaming. Tivo is now the only major player that doesnt do this and they are supposed to be the hitech alternative. Considering there is historaically 18 - 36 months (closer to 36) between generations, waiting for a Series 5 is not a good option. I'm going to keep using my Tivo HD but if Moxi fixes some of the issues with their mate (primarily so that you can schedule recordings from the Mate) I'm gone.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

riekl said:


> So you have magicked up a way to transfer an in progress recording ? Please do share ..
> 
> Since you haven't, you do have at least THAT problem which is a MAJOR one. The second one may be specific to my setup but I find that hard to believe since i've gone as far as hooking the 2 tivo's to the same switch (and even used 2 different switches) changed cabling etc and the recordings of HD material is not faster then realtime, at best it is equal to real time.


It's your setup. We transfer HD all the time, and an hour show takes about 40 minutes, so if we give it a 3-5 minute headstart, we can watch it as it transfers without penalty and still skip the commercials.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

curiousgeorge said:


> It's your setup. We transfer HD all the time, and an hour show takes about 40 minutes, so if we give it a 3-5 minute headstart, we can watch it as it transfers without penalty and still skip the commercials.


The point is that there is no reason streaming could not have been implemented. It simply appears that TiVo either set the bar very low or flat out ran out of time getting things ready for streaming to make it into this generation.

It is entirely possible that they will add this as a feature later but it would have been far better to have this ready at launch.

As already pointed out, all of the competition has already moved in this direction. Put a single box with 3 tuners or better in the main entertainment area of the home and then put small, power efficient streaming devices in other rooms.

This makes infinitely more sense than having to buy multiple boxes, each with a service subscription, etc, just to watch your recordings in more than one room.

I have three rooms I watch programming in and make do with two Tivo HD boxes plus a Slingbox/Slingcatcher combo for the 3rd room. I bought the Slingbox/Catcher because it was cheaper than buying yet another TiVo box with yet another subscription, not to mention the TiVo sucking down 45-55 watts of power 24 hours a day.

TiVo has become too concentrated on maintaining subscriptions on multiple boxes for their aging user base, they really had an opportunity to do some innovative things and have a box that really wowed people, been featured on CNN, MSN, etc, and gained a ton of new subscribers.

Sometimes playing it "safe" results in going out of business.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> As already pointed out, all of the competition has already moved in this direction. Put a single box with 3 tuners or better in the main entertainment area of the home and then put small, power efficient streaming devices in other rooms.


No go AT ALL in our house. Too many conflicts for only three tuners to cover. I'll keep my 8 tuners on 4 boxes, thank you.

The only real box-to-box "streaming" it's missing is shows in progress. I'd like that, but it's not a dealbreaker without it.



jmpage2 said:


> Sometimes playing it "safe" results in going out of business.


Not when you own pretty much all the key tech for the DVR platform. Once the Dish thing is settled completely and all appeals are exhausted (later this year?), TiVo has proven all it needs to and *everyone* with DVR tech that doesn't already have an agreement will be paying up for a long time. Individual subs could completely disappear next year and TiVo would still be a revenue machine.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

curiousgeorge said:


> No go AT ALL in our house. Too many conflicts for only three tuners to cover. I'll keep my 8 tuners on 4 boxes, thank you.
> 
> The only real box-to-box "streaming" it's missing is shows in progress. I'd like that, but it's not a dealbreaker without it.


So, you would have to go to three boxes with three tuners each rather than four boxes with two tuners each... and this is bad how?










Maybe instead of dismissing the needs and wants of others you should recognize that YOURS is the one-off case.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

jmpage2 said:


> Why do they need to give up TTG if they add streaming?
> 
> You just add it as another choice in the transfer menu and potentially open up the possibility of streaming to 3rd party devices like iPads, laptops, etc.
> 
> TTG doesn't vanish in a puff of smoke just because they offer a modern alternative.


Yes, I understand that. I'm just pointing out that TiVo's current implementation has benefits for those of us who aren't affected by the CCI byte problem.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

curiousgeorge said:


> No go AT ALL in our house. Too many conflicts for only three tuners to cover. I'll keep my 8 tuners on 4 boxes, thank you.
> 
> The only real box-to-box "streaming" it's missing is shows in progress. I'd like that, but it's not a dealbreaker without it.
> 
> Not when you own pretty much all the key tech for the DVR platform. Once the Dish thing is settled completely and all appeals are exhausted (later this year?), TiVo has proven all it needs to and *everyone* with DVR tech that doesn't already have an agreement will be paying up for a long time. Individual subs could completely disappear next year and TiVo would still be a revenue machine.


You should find someone with Uverse to try out how multi room should be done, you would be amazed how much a pain in the ass tivo is to use for MRV after that. Once upon a time Tivo was all we had and any MRV was light years better then none. That is no longer true, and in the years Tivo has done absolutely nothing to improve MRV it sits aging while competition passes them by.

With Uverse or Moxi for that matter you pick a show and click it, and poof ! There it is. With Tivo HD, I go to my shows list, then have to pick the appropriate dvr (forcing me to know where each show happens to be recording), then click the show, then click start download, then after a good 10second delay i can hit start watching now.

Sure it 'works' but its painful compared to the other options and it shouldnt be, we are paying a premium to use Tivo, Tivo is supposed to be ahead of the pack. I've had Tivo since January of 2000, and am very saddened by their lack of technological advancements.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> So, you would have to go to three boxes with three tuners each rather than four boxes with two tuners each... and this is bad how?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You said "put a SINGLE box with 3 tuners in it". Do I want to downgrade to 3 tuners? No. Am I happy with 8 tuners in 4 boxes? Yes. Would I be happier with 9 tuners in 3 boxes? Yes. Would I be happiest with 10 tuners in 1 box that streams to slaves? Of course.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

riekl said:


> You should find someone with Uverse to try out how multi room should be done, you would be amazed how much a pain in the ass tivo is to use for MRV after that. Once upon a time Tivo was all we had and any MRV was light years better then none. That is no longer true, and in the years Tivo has done absolutely nothing to improve MRV it sits aging while competition passes them by.
> 
> With Uverse or Moxi for that matter you pick a show and click it, and poof ! There it is. With Tivo HD, I go to my shows list, then have to pick the appropriate dvr (forcing me to know where each show happens to be recording), then click the show, then click start download, then after a good 10second delay i can hit start watching now.
> 
> Sure it 'works' but its painful compared to the other options and it shouldnt be, we are paying a premium to use Tivo, Tivo is supposed to be ahead of the pack. I've had Tivo since January of 2000, and am very saddened by their lack of technological advancements.


At least with my TiVo I can transfer any of my recordings to a PC for burning to BD or storage on a hard drive? Why can't I do that with Moxi if they are so technologically advanced?

And with Uverse the picture quality is crap compared to FiOS.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> At least with my TiVo I can transfer any of my recordings to a PC for burning to BD or storage on a hard drive? Why can't I do that with Moxi if they are so technologically advanced?
> 
> And with Uverse the picture quality is crap compared to FiOS.


Again, why would you lose TTG if they implemented streaming between TiVos? You seem to be stuck in an either/or idea about this when both could coexist quite well.

Moxi hasn't added TTG type features because *gasp* most users probably don't utilize it so it's not high on their to do list.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

curiousgeorge said:


> You said "put a SINGLE box with 3 tuners in it". Do I want to downgrade to 3 tuners? No. Am I happy with 8 tuners in 4 boxes? Yes. Would I be happier with 9 tuners in 3 boxes? Yes. Would I be happiest with 10 tuners in 1 box that streams to slaves? Of course.


I would rather do 10 tuners in 1 box. I do not need to pay for a cable card in each box if we did it this way. Yes I get you have 8 boxes.. but the monthly cost of cable cards would be high.

As for TTG, I had a Tivo for 8 years.. never used it once. Why watch it on a tiny screen when i can watch it on my big TV.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

fatlard said:


> I would rather do 10 tuners in 1 box. I do not need to pay for a cable card in each box if we did it this way. Yes I get you have 8 boxes.. but the monthly cost of cable cards would be high.


Unfortunately you couldn't do that since M cards only support up to 6 streams.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

fatlard said:


> As for TTG, I had a Tivo for 8 years.. never used it once. Why watch it on a tiny screen when i can watch it on my big TV.


TivoToGo isn't about watching on a computer screen.

TiVoToGo allows you to download, edit (remove commercials), and save to DVD, Blu-ray, or computer/server storage. With the improved throughput on the Premiere, you can now pull HD recordings straight from PC or server storage at twice real time speed. That's fast enough to play recordings stored on your PC or server while skipping commercials.

You can set a program like kmttg to automatically download all of your programs and remove commercials. Then you can then play all of those recordings back on demand without delay, commercial-free.

See the Premiere performance charts.


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

Saberj said:


> The guide isn't in HD yet. Read where that's still yet to be converted, but I don't remember where I read it. I believe the Engadget review shows the old guide still in one of their videos.


I never understood why the guide on S3 and THD wasn't written to show more characters in the station name. For instance, for HBO, I get
HBOHD
HBOH...
HBO2...
HBO2...
HBOS...
HBOS...
etc.
There has been room on the screen to allow more characters, they just never expanded it.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> TivoToGo isn't about watching on a computer screen.
> 
> TiVoToGo allows you to download, edit (remove commercials), and save to DVD, Blu-ray, or computer/server storage. With the improved throughput on the Premiere, you can now pull HD recordings straight from PC or server storage at twice real time speed. That's fast enough to play recordings stored on your PC or server while skipping commercials.
> 
> ...


Still don't see the value in it. That is a lot of work and processing power and a lot of steps for transfers to get messed up / delayed when all you have to do is 30s skip a few times to avoid the commercials. MRV is a pain in the ass with Tivo maybe they made it better with Premire but all of the reviews I have read said even the classic interface is just as slow and clunky if not slower on the new suped up hardware.

Playing a movie on MRV == Going to your guide, scrolling to the bottom, picking your pc, hitting ok, picking your movie, hitting ok, then select start transfering (why is this step even here ??), then wait at least 10 seconds, then hit ok to start playing.

Bleh. I see value in TTG for people that like watching content on the go and want to put it on their iphone, psp etc. For everything else its too clunky to be worthwhile, at least in my opinion. I even bought TTG Plus, I used it a few times for the sole purpose of reverse TTG (streaming movies from my pc to the Tivo) and thats it.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

riekl said:


> MRV is a pain in the ass with Tivo maybe they made it better with Premire but all of the reviews I have read said even the classic interface is just as slow and clunky if not slower on the new suped up hardware.


I'm not sure where you got the idea that classic was slow[er]. It's faster than any other TiVo by a noticeable margin.



riekl said:


> Playing a movie on MRV == Going to your guide, scrolling to the bottom, picking your pc, hitting ok, picking your movie, hitting ok, then select start transfering (why is this step even here ??), then wait at least 10 seconds, then hit ok to start playing.


Hit -->| once to jump down to the bottom of the NPL, hit select on the PC folder, scroll down to the recording, and then click PLAY. I do agree about the "Start transferring" step. That is redundant; perhaps it made sense on older TiVos, but it is unnecessary on the Premiere given its network throughput.

TiVo needs to implement streaming and I'm certain they know that. The good news is that they finally have the hardware to make it a reality. MPEG-2 streaming in Streambaby is 40Mbps on the Premiere.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> I'm not sure where you got the idea that classic was slow[er]. It's faster than any other TiVo by a noticeable margin.
> 
> Hit -->| once to jump down to the bottom of the NPL, hit select on the PC folder, scroll down to the recording, and then click PLAY. I do agree about the "Start transferring" step. That is redundant; perhaps it made sense on older TiVos, but it is unnecessary on the Premiere given its network throughput.
> 
> TiVo needs to implement streaming and I'm certain they know that. The good news is that they finally have the hardware to make it a reality. MPEG-2 streaming in Streambaby is 40Mbps on the Premiere.


Sorry if there was a misunderstanding, I was stating that the INTERFACE is just as slow in the premier, the transfers might be significantly faster which is good. 40Mbps is still nothing to write home about that is about 1/8th of what the drive is capable of. 5-6MB/Sec is still crappy for a next generation device.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> Again, why would you lose TTG if they implemented streaming between TiVos? You seem to be stuck in an either/or idea about this when both could coexist quite well.
> 
> Moxi hasn't added TTG type features because *gasp* most users probably don't utilize it so it's not high on their to do list.


Of course both could coexist, but transferring the programs to a PC is many, many times more important to me than streaming. It is extremely rare that I want to watch something on a TiVo in another room while it is recording. I can count on one hand the number of times that has happened since I got my Series 3 boxes in 2006.

99.9% of my transfers are after the recording has been made.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> Of course both could coexist, but transferring the programs to a PC is many, many times more important to me than streaming. It is extremely rare that I want to watch something on a TiVo in another room while it is recording. I can count on one hand the number of times that has happened since I got my Series 3 boxes in 2006.
> 
> 99.9% of my transfers are after the recording has been made.


I think a lot has to do with your viewing habits, and also if you have had the joy of experiencing good streaming. For example for me, the lack of streaming is a every single day problem. We typically have something recording from 8-10pm, I get up for work at 5am so we usually go upstairs around 8:45 or so and this causes 2 issues :

a) If i was in the middle of watching a 8pm show i'm SOL since i can't just resume upstairs like i could with uverse (or moxi for that matter). 
b) If I wait till 9 and let the 8:45 finish, i'm equally SOL as the 9pm wont be avail to stream until 10.

Lack of streaming is a real problem for me it wasnt a big deal before I had uverse for 6 months but coming back after having it is tough.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

riekl said:


> I think a lot has to do with your viewing habits, and also if you have had the joy of experiencing good streaming. For example for me, the lack of streaming is a every single day problem. We typically have something recording from 8-10pm, I get up for work at 5am so we usually go upstairs around 8:45 or so and this causes 2 issues :
> 
> a) If i was in the middle of watching a 8pm show i'm SOL since i can't just resume upstairs like i could with uverse (or moxi for that matter).
> b) If I wait till 9 and let the 8:45 finish, i'm equally SOL as the 9pm wont be avail to stream until 10.
> ...


If I had fewer boxes it would be an issue. But I have four boxes in my main viewing area, which will become two once I get the Premieres. So the issue might come up more often when I switch to the Premiers. But it also isn't an issue when I'm busy at work since I'm always several days to two weeks behind in watching my weekly recordings.
Plus 30% of the shows I watch with my girlfriend on the weekends.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

MRV has only one advantage over streaming. That is, to offload the storage. Of course, a much better solution for this would be to record to a NAS across the network. Now, that would be a good use of Gigabyte networking. 

Streaming has the following advantages:

- No copy protection issues. 
For many, there are programs that cannot be watching in another room.
- No delay to start watching.
- Pick up where you left off in any room.

It is fine if a particular individual has no need for these features. However, they exist in the marketplace today. This is a key area where TiVo is lacking. I really do not think there is any arguing the point. TiVo is behind and no amount of marketing bluster will solve that problem.

- Rich


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

Pace's approach to MRV is actually pretty interesting. The DVRs don't have internal HDDs, they use eSATA instead. So Pace released a MoCA NAS that all the DVRs record to. Then the content is streamed back. The only problem is there are still no collaborative tuners.


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## ckelly33 (Oct 30, 2004)

Had to call for a question about my order and before I got off the phone, the lady told me that my order would ship today. I guess I'll find out soon enough how slow this thing is.

Does anyone know if the reviews were done with a wireless or wired connection?


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

ckelly33 said:


> Had to call for a question about my order and before I got off the phone, the lady told me that my order would ship today. I guess I'll find out soon enough how slow this thing is.
> 
> Does anyone know if the reviews were done with a wireless or wired connection?


The box only has a wired interface so not sure what you mean.

Even a slow, crappy wireless interface should be much faster than a persons broadband connection so I really doubt that anything other than TiVo software is the bottleneck here.


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## ckelly33 (Oct 30, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> The box only has a wired interface so not sure what you mean.
> 
> Even a slow, crappy wireless interface should be much faster than a persons broadband connection so I really doubt that anything other than TiVo software is the bottleneck here.


Does the premiere not have a USB port for the old wireless G adaptor so that you have the option of connecting wirelessly? (I know the new N version is coming but I figured it would still work with the old USB adaptor)


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

ckelly33 said:


> Does the premiere not have a USB port for the old wireless G adaptor so that you have the option of connecting wirelessly? (I know the new N version is coming but I figured it would still work with the old USB adaptor)


Yes, you can use a wireless usb adapter, sorry for misunderstanding.

It doesn't change the fact that wired vs. wireless should be making zero difference in responsiveness of the UI or load times for elements of the user interface.

Ball is in TiVos court to fix these things and convince skeptics like myself to buy one!


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> It doesn't change the fact that wired vs. wireless should be making zero difference in responsiveness of the UI or load times for elements of the user interface.


It all depends on where the elements are loaded from. If they are from the internet, and not cached to disk, *some* (not nearly all) of the slowness can be network related.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

SoBayJake said:


> It all depends on where the elements are loaded from. If they are from the internet, and not cached to disk, *some* (not nearly all) of the slowness can be network related.


Being a network engineer by trade I'd have to say that this is unlikely in the extreme.

Local network latency, even in a wireless environment cannot really be contributing to slowness of 1-3 seconds or longer for UI elements to pop in even if the TiVo does have to "fetch" them each time and is doing no caching.

The only time you tend to notice a difference with a wireless vs. wired application is where pure bandwidth (and packet loss) comes into play such as when streaming large amounts of video, etc.

Wireless also has a bit more jitter and delay, but that would be more likely to affect your quality of play in an online game like COD MW2 than in how fast a TiVo can load things.

Remember, we are talking about a "ping time" difference of maybe 5 ms on a wired network vs. 20 ms on a wireless. You won't notice it.


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> Being a network engineer by trade I'd have to say that this is unlikely in the extreme.
> 
> Local network latency, even in a wireless environment cannot really be contributing to slowness of 1-3 seconds or longer for UI elements to pop in even if the TiVo does have to "fetch" them each time and is doing no caching.
> 
> ...


That's why I said "some." I like my TiVos as much as anyone, but there are some things that tivo did halfway. And let's face it, we weren't there, we don't know! We aren't the TiVo engineers, we don't know!

Say every image is loaded over the internet each time, and none are displayed until its done. You'll notice that. And we know when searching by name it looks up the most popular ones from the TiVo server, there's another network


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Of course some slowness can be related to loading of non cached data that must be sourced from the Internet.

However, suggesting that you could detect the difference of how fast these cached images load on a wired vs wireless LAN is more than a bit of a stretch.

As I said, we are talking about the difference between 5 milliseconds and maybe 20 milliseconds. It's not detectable by you unless you are part cyborg.


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> Of course some slowness can be related to loading of non cached data that must be sourced from the Internet.
> 
> However, suggesting that you could detect the difference of how fast these cached images load on a wired vs wireless LAN is more than a bit of a stretch.
> 
> As I said, we are talking about the difference between 5 milliseconds and maybe 20 milliseconds. It's not detectable by you unless you are part cyborg.


What I'm saying is, you do NOT know the setup. I don't know it.
Say it was wireless. And it wasn't a very good signal?
That's ALL I am saying.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

All I'm saying is that I'm a network engineer and I've been working on this stuff for fifteen years.

This isn't a matter of your opinion or my opinion this is simply how the technology functions.

Nothing TiVo engineers did would make one little bit of difference in using wired vs. wireless.

Network engineer for 15 years.... "just sayin"


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> All I'm saying is that I'm a network engineer and I've been working on this stuff for fifteen years.
> 
> This isn't a matter of your opinion or my opinion this is simply how the technology functions.
> 
> ...


This is the last reply on this topic, but I'm a computer engineer. Big deal.
There are a number of variables with a wireless signal you are completely ignoring that could have contributed to a difference.

I never said it made a difference, I never said it didn't. I said it might. I said "If they are from the internet, and not cached to disk, *some* (not nearly all) of the slowness can be network related."

There, I'm done.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> The box only has a wired interface so not sure what you mean.
> 
> Even a slow, crappy wireless interface should be much faster than a persons broadband connection .................


Wireless G is not faster than my FiOS connection.

Now wireless N is another story. I can easily get 150mbs throughput speeds from my Wireless N on 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz at home from PCs. But it still pales to the 900mbs+ throughput I get from my wired gigabit network at home between PCs.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> It's not faster than my FiOS connection.


The TiVo has a 100mb/s full duplex interface and the fastest I've personally seen from FIOS is 50mb/s.

Not to mention that the server you are pulling the data from is almost assuredly not able to provide enough data to saturate your FIOS pipe or even a Wireless B interface for that matter.

Most servers for sites with very high traffic levels (like IMDB, etc) have built in throttling to present any one user from pulling down too much data at a time.

It's a common misconception from people that they can take advantage of the full download speed of their internet connection, when in fact almost everything other than extremely high performance file download servers and speed test servers are incapable of maxing out your broadband speed.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> The TiVo has a 100mb/s full duplex interface and the fastest I've personally seen from FIOS is 50mb/s.
> 
> Not to mention that the server you are pulling the data from is almost assuredly not able to provide enough data to saturate your FIOS pipe.
> 
> Most servers for sites with very high traffic levels (like IMDB, etc) have built in throttling to present any one user from pulling down too much data at a time.


This was in response to a "...slow, crappy wireless interface..." not wired.

and yes there are plenty of places I go to online that max my FIOS connection. I use 1TB to 3TB each month of bandwidth from FiOS.

For instance, downloading from Microsoft I'll ht 35mbs, and when I had 50mbs I would hit that too. Also from the PSN with the PS3 will max out my Fios connection(at 35mbs and when I had 50mbs)


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> This was in response to a "...slow, crappy wireless interface..." not wired.


See my comment above. Your FIOS might theoretically be faster than a Wireless-G interface but you will find few services available on the internet that can actually max your FIOS pipe.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> See my comment above. Your FIOS might theoretically be faster than a Wireless-G interface but you will find few services available on the internet that can actually max your FIOS pipe.


I've had 30mbs and faster service from FiOS since 2007. There are plenty of sites I download from that maximize the FiOS connection.
And of course there are plenty that don't


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> I've had 30mbs and faster service from FiOS since 2007. There are plenty of sites I download from that maximize the FiOS connection.
> And of course there are plenty that don't


Wireless-G under optimal conditions would come quite close to your 30mbps FIOS speed, so again this is all a moot point.

Unless every reviewer out there has crap-o wireless gear, turns their microwave on while testing, etc, it's not a factor in this. Slowness is 100% the TiVo software.


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## sonicboom (Sep 2, 2006)

paulnelson20 said:


> I really don't understand a lot of people. The review (Engadget) said that it is currently only running on one of the two cores. I would at least wait until I saw what the speed was like running on both cores before I canceled my preorder. What happens if, and I mean if, they activate that second core and the majority of the lag goes away? Will you be rushing out to buy one, only to find out every place is out of stock and have to wait another month?


Are you kidding? They shipped with one core running. What makes you think they will ever activate the second? Maybe the software is single threaded, and cannot run MP. This may be fixable over time, but when?

No, they shipped their "premier" product like this... it is what it is, and that is how it should be judged today. Forget about what might come in the future.

I must say, I for one am disappointed in tivo given the reviews thusfar.

S4 is a bust for me. I'm out.


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