# New hard drive advice needed



## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

Looking to swap my 250gb IDE drive for larger drive and have been looking at all the WD drives and totally confused by all the various numbers and specs for what seem much the same drives.

Have narrowed down to 1 option so before purchase I am looking for advice.

WD AV-GP WD7500AVDS - Hard drive - 750 GB - internal - 3.5 - SATA-300 - buffer: 32 MB : - £ 54.40 inc vat and delivery.

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=764


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

New WD SATA drives will most likely need a SmartStart power conditioner as well as a compatible SATA converter to work in a TiVo. Unfortunately the new firmware in both WD and Samsung SATA drives is not really TiVo compatible without one and I am currently looking around for alternatives. In the meantime, SmartStarts can be ordered from 9thTee if you don't mind a few weeks wait.

http://www.9thtee.com/SmartStart-DS.pdf


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

That link made extremely interesting reading but as I will only have I hard drive fitted will it be an absolute necessity.

If the drive I have found (and now I can get it for &#163;48.96 with a possible further 3&#37; cashback) is considered unsuitable can you recommend any other in the 500gb to 1TB range suitable for a series 1 Tivo


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

http://www.9thtee.com/tivo-sa2o.htm

Having now found the SmartStart on the 9thtee website it certainly seems that for a single drive machine it isn't needed or have I mis-understood something


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

Not sure if I am making the right assumptions but having looked up the power specs for my existing drive which is a Seagate ST3250823A 250GB IDE it is shown as having a peak power usage on startup at 2.8 amps.

The WD sata drive I am looking at has only a peak at 1.671 amps.

Does that mean I will be OK to use it ?


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

blindlemon said:


> New WD SATA drives will most likely need a SmartStart power conditioner


Drives have become less power hungry, not more 

Especially as it now the accepted norm to have 1 drive, not 2 drives the power surge is halved....

Even 9thtee are marketing that as a dual drive solution, not for single drives.

[edit]
From the horse's mouth: 


tivoupgrade said:


> Here's the rub... no TiVo really *needs* this [SmartStart]. We created the device because there was some FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) created many moons ago about whether it was safe to put two drives into some of the Series2 units which were really not designed to handle two drives (*series1 units were ALL designed to handle two drives*). In the end, we had customers who wanted these devices and although we tried to convince folks it was safe to add drives without having such a device, we finally caved and developed this product...


(tivoupgrade/dvrupgrade are the makers of SmartStart)


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

Mike thanks for the re-assuring reply, are you able to give me the thumbs up for the drive I mentioned

WD AV-GP WD7500AVDS http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=764

I need to order soon as the offer is only until 31/01/2010

If others want to know where to get them I can post that as soon as my order is confirmed.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

mikerr said:


> Drives have become less power hungry, not more
> 
> Especially as it now the accepted norm to have 1 drive, not 2 drives the power surge is halved....
> 
> ...


Clearly you haven't tried using the newest firmware WD and Samsung drives in a TiVo then. Smartstart was unnecessary for older drives but it seems to be the only way to get some new drives to work in a TiVo. It seems to depend on the drive firmware, not the drive model.

Richard, good luck, but if your drive fails to boot in the TiVo then you will need a SmartStart... sorry


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

I'll wait until I next order a batch then (got 50+ drives in stock atm),
though I suspect it might be the IDE-SATA convertor, not the drives,
(I recently had to change model of that too).


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

I'm using the Western Digital Green (eco) drives in the RAID array of my Media Center. They're only 5400rpm, but they are very quiet, cool and power-saving. As to whether they would need a power conditioner in a TiVo, I've no idea.

You really don't need high-performance drives in a PVR. A small Acer Aspire Revo can record from three tuners, while simultaneously playing back a couple of recordings, with only a low-powered 2.5" laptop drive.


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

I think I may have made an error when I linked to the drive I was thinking of.
I meant it to be the WD 7500AAVS 8 mb Caviar Green and not the AVDS.

I see that TivoHeavens website link for WD drives links to the WD7500AADS 32mb version.
the AAVS having exactly the same spec except for the cache size.

Blindlemon and Mikerr as the outstanding experts in this field do you think the 8mb cache WD7500AAVS will do (it is in stock) or should I opt for the 32mb cahe WD7500AADS which has a minimum lead time of 2 weeks.


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## sender_name (Feb 12, 2005)

If you are replacing a drive why not go for a 1TB drive and increase the capacity 33% more than the 750gb?


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

At present I have 250gb drives in both my Tivos which rarely get full because I archive to a server. Both drives are starting to show signs of age so I decided to replace with larger drives with the prime reasoning to move all my recording from Mode 0 high quality to Mode 0 Best quality so 750gb will allow that and still allow for a little more recording space.

The price was also a consideration &#163;45 for 750gb &#163;68 for 1TB so value per gb the 750 is better


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

blindlemon said:


> http://www.9thtee.com/SmartStart-DS.pdf


Wow. I built something like this in 1985 when I got my first PC (20MB drive !!) and had power issues when adding a second 10MB drive.

I just used a small 12V DIL relay from Maplin (to switch on +5 and 12V to second disk drive) and resistor and capacitor to delay relay turn on a second or so for the power to the second disk drive. Worked fine.


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## mhopley (Mar 5, 2002)

I bought a WD5000AVVS as upgrade for my Tivo but it wouldn't recognise it with the recommended SATA adaptor. 
I tried disabling the Intellipark feature and powering it from a separate supply but never got it it work. I ended up using an old IDE drive instead.


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

mhopley said:


> I bought a WD5000AVVS as upgrade for my Tivo but it wouldn't recognise it with the recommended SATA adaptor.
> I tried disabling the Intellipark feature and powering it from a separate supply but never got it it work. I ended up using an old IDE drive instead.


Thanks for that info clearly I don't seem to be heading for the right choice of hard drive. 

So any good recommendations for a a hard drive upgrade up to 1TB would be gratefully appreciated


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

Time is running out on the deal I found for the WD Caviar Green WD7500AAVS - Hard drive - 750 GB - internal - 3.5 - SATA-300 - buffer: 8 MB.

Any positive thoughts would be appreciated. I see that it no longer appears on the WD list of hard drives http://www.wdc.com/en/products/productcatalog.asp?language=en so I guess it won't be one of the newer WD hard drives that Blindlemon refers to.

My intention was to upgrade both Tivos so a purchase of 2 drives for under £100 was looking good. I guess if they weren't any good for Tivo I could use the for storage with a SATA dock.

I did see an alternative drive which might do the job so sorry it's more questions 

Samsung EcoGreen F2 1TB Hard Drive SATAII 32MB Cache - OEM £59.99

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/164282


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

mikerr said:


> I'll wait until I next order a batch then (got 50+ drives in stock atm),
> though I suspect it might be the IDE-SATA convertor, not the drives,
> (I recently had to change model of that too).


When I first encountered the problem I assumed it was the SATA converter as well. However, after a couple of weeks trying virtually every converter I could find in 3 different test machines I eventually dug out an old SmartStart I'd had lying around for years and voila! It worked with every SATA converter I had. Some of them had other issues but they would all boot in the TiVo with the SmartStart and not without.

The problem seems to be the same as the problem with the WD5000AAKB IDE drives which mysteriously would never boot in a TiVo either. Unfortunately I no longer have any of those around to test with a SmartStart.


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## Marathon (Oct 5, 2001)

...I've been trying to upgrade using a 500G WD green SATA drive and have had the same problem. I've tried a couple of SATA convertors and been through the copy process a few times just in case I made an error. I've fiddled with it but I can't get it to boot.

I've decided to use the new SATA drive for my PC backup and I'm going to use the PATA drive I originally used for my PC backups in the TiVo.

Marathon


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## Hunty (Nov 6, 2001)

I got a new WD green 1TB disk, I copied all onto disk ok but tivo didn't recognise the drive, it spun but nothing was seen on the TV. I reloaded the disk, tried a different tivo (I have 3)

I contacted Tivoheaven as it was a hooch created drive, he recommend the smartstart power conditioner, as I have trusted his judgement for many years I bought one (from Tivoheaven as it happens), fitted it to drive and tivo and now it works perfectly too many hours at best 

I can therefore only back up what Blindlemon (Steve) is saying you might need a smartstart cable


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Ian_m said:


> Wow. I built something like this in 1985 when I got my first PC (20MB drive !!) and had power issues when adding a second 10MB drive.
> 
> I just used a small 12V DIL relay from Maplin (to switch on +5 and 12V to second disk drive) and resistor and capacitor to delay relay turn on a second or so for the power to the second disk drive. Worked fine.


You wouldn't happen to have a circuit diagram and parts list for that lying around would you? 

SmartStarts are ridiculously overpriced and the shipping delays via 9thTee are a nightmare!

Cheers
Steve


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

Having read and re-read all that I can re WD drives I have come to the conclusion that the newer drives that have the Intellipark feature appear to be the problem ones.

The WD7500AAVS 8mb is an older drive (no longer made by WD) and without Intellipark so later this afternoon I will be ordering 2 drives and keeping my fingers crossed that they will work. I bought the sata adapters some while ago when they were the recommended ones.

As I see it even if the drives don't work in the Tivos at the price they are I can make use of them.

Of course I could be totally wrong so between now and later this afternoon I am open to any comments.


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

Well I have taken the plunge and ordered 2 of the WD 7500AAVS Total price &#163;97.92 inc delivery, with a probable Quidco cashback due of &#163;2.50 so total for 2 drives &#163;95.42.

As said before I just hope they are Tivo happy.

BTW. the order was made with Dell online using a 10&#37; voucher code (expires 31/01/2010) JH5T0BP6V8374D just in case anyone else want to make a purchase


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

RichardJH said:


> As I see it even if the drives don't work in the Tivos at the price they are I can make use of them.


Good luck - if they don't boot in your TiVo once you've configured them then you will just need a SmartStart 

Honestly, I hate having to recommend them as they are horribly overpriced and don't really do very much at all, but they seem to be the only way to get some (these days _most_) WD and Samsung SATA drives to boot in a TiVo.

Cheers
Steve


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> Good luck - if they don't boot in your TiVo once you've configured them then you will just need a SmartStart
> 
> Honestly, I hate having to recommend them as they are horribly overpriced and don't really do very much at all, but they seem to be the only way to get some (these days _most_) WD and Samsung SATA drives to boot in a TiVo.
> 
> ...


Well I hope that I won't need them but only time will tell.

I trust you will become our local stockist of the SmartStart if me or others find the need for them


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

This is something like the circuit I used.

Connect D1 to PSU 12V and when PSU turns on it charges the capacitor and after say 1 second closes the relay which connects +12V and +5V to the second disk drive.

Need to experiment with R and C value to match the relay and get a suitable delay say 1 second. The one I used was a 12V reed relay about 10mA current (1200 Ohm) switching 2 contacts. I got mine from Maplin...that was in 1986....


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> Good luck - if they don't boot in your TiVo once you've configured them then you will just need a SmartStart
> 
> Honestly, I hate having to recommend them as they are horribly overpriced and don't really do very much at all, but they seem to be the only way to get some (these days _most_) WD and Samsung SATA drives to boot in a TiVo.
> 
> ...


Well my new drives are now here and at present copying all from a 250gb IDE to a WD 7500aavs sata drive using one of the previously recommended adapters.

Afterward its boot or no boot time I will report back.


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

well after several hours I have to bow to Blindlemon's comments/advice because neither of the WD 7500AAVS (manuf date Dec 2009) or a WD 500AAKS (manuf date Mar 2007) booted in my Tivo.

I am using the Sata/Pata adapter that was recommended in post 13 of thread http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7218524#post7218524

So do I try a different adapter or an alternative hard drive.

Recommendations welcome


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## Hunty (Nov 6, 2001)

You need the smartstart i belive, like I did

I am not sure how or what it does, but withouth it my WD green 1TB doesnt work, with it it does, and it has been fine now for nearly a month

Would be nice if there was an alternative cheaper method though


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

Hunty said:


> You need the smartstart i belive, like I did
> 
> I am not sure how or what it does, but withouth it my WD green 1TB doesnt work, with it it does, and it has been fine now for nearly a month
> 
> Would be nice if there was an alternative cheaper method though


Not really what I wanted to hear but worth a try.

I wonder if TivoHeaven have any for sale ??


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

RichardJH said:


> Not really what I wanted to hear but worth a try.
> 
> I wonder if TivoHeaven have any for sale ??


Yeah, it sucks - especially as it's only needed at startup - but I haven't found an alternative for these drives yet. IanKB's suggestion sounds promising but I haven't had time to build and tinker with a homemade delay circuit yet and, in fact, I'm not even sure how much cheaper it would be in the end, especially given the time it would take to make 

I do have a few SmartStarts though - drop me an email or PM to order one.

On a related note, the WDIDLE program does seem to help with the restarts once the machine is powered up. Without it sometimes a warm restart just hangs because the drive has gone into sleep mode before the TiVo tries to access it again!

Cheers
Steve


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> Yeah, it sucks - especially as it's only needed at startup - but I haven't found an alternative for these drives yet. IanKB's suggestion sounds promising but I haven't had time to build and tinker with a homemade delay circuit yet and, in fact, I'm not even sure how much cheaper it would be in the end, especially given the time it would take to make
> 
> I do have a few SmartStarts though - drop me an email or PM to order one.
> 
> ...


Email sent


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> On a related note, the WDIDLE program does seem to help with the restarts once the machine is powered up. Without it sometimes a warm restart just hangs because the drive has gone into sleep mode before the TiVo tries to access it again!
> 
> Cheers
> Steve


Having found and downloaded an ISO of WDBOOT which has the WDIDLE program on it do you advise disable the timer for Tivo use.

I certainly would prefer to sort that bit out so as not to have to pull apart the AV stack a second time.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Well having just got a brand new batch of 1TB drives in:

Western Digital 1TB - WD10EADS 1TB (manuf date 22 Nov 2009)
Samsung 1TB F2 - HD103SI 1TB (manuf date 12.2009)

*They work in TiVo without any problems with the IDE-SATA adaptors I use*
(note that "source kit" adaptors actually stopped working a while ago - firmware change)

The adaptors I use look like this:


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

Success albeit only up to 500GB each Tivo but at least the 750 drives were not wasted.

Below is a copy of email sent to Steve AKA BlindLemon AKA TivoHeaven which may be of help to others, although looking at Mikes last post the WD drives he has don't seem to have the problem.



> Steve
> 
> Thanks for the prompt service smartstarts arrived first thing this morning and I got straight to work upgrading both Tivo's.
> 
> ...


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

RichardJH said:


> Success albeit only up to 500GB each Tivo but at least the 750 drives were not wasted.
> 
> Below is a copy of email sent to Steve AKA BlindLemon AKA TivoHeaven which may be of help to others, although looking at Mikes last post the WD drives he has don't seem to have the problem.


Maybe because he's using StarTech SATA adapters that cost £17 each 

I've always avoided them on the assumption that the price was not justified when most other SATA converters are between £2 and £8 but we shall see....


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

blindlemon said:


> Maybe because he's using StarTech SATA adapters that cost £17 each


No mystery as to the make, that's why I posted a picture - you can buy them much cheaper than that trade, but lets not start on profit margins...



> I've always avoided them on the assumption that the price was not justified when most other SATA converters are between £2 and £8 but we shall see....


I also used to use cheap convertors, but the price is obviously justified now, 
since they are the only ones that work unless you want to sell smartstarts 
Actually that may be an idea if it is fixing no-sound issues on some tivos...


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

> =mikerr;7772861
> I also used to use cheap convertors, but the price is obviously justified now,
> since they are the only ones that work unless you want to sell smartstarts
> Actually that may be an idea if it is fixing no-sound issues on some tivos..


with SmartStart + cheap converter = Startech converter for price it may be worth it for the bonus of not getting the "no sound issue".

Later today I want to update all the logos on both Tivo's and that will require a reboot which will be the 4th reboot since upgrade, the others were while testing and re-installing to AV stack so no drama about them.
All being well I will be able to report back again a reboot without the no sound issue something that has troubled me under my old setup at least 90% of reboots.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> Maybe because he's using StarTech SATA adapters that cost £17 each


I would have thought if they can charge extra long term its possibly because they make a better product unless they have a near monopoly of a particular distribution channel.

This always seemed to be a philosophy you followed for quite some time in terms of product pricing of things like hard drive upgrades on the tivoheaven.com website compared to those cheap and nasty upstart rival hard drive upgrades being sold on Ebay, some of them by some annoying and often rubbished bloke (especially by a certain established upgrade drive supplier) living not far from Liverpool who didn't have his own upgrade website at the time

Oddly the cheap Cachecard I bought from some bloke called andrew mccandless in Northern Ireland for about 25 quid less than Tivoheaven is still working perfectly to this day. Although to be fair so are that pair of Samsung HA250JC drives that you recommended as the best available at the time some four and a half years ago (but which I bought from komplett.co.uk as far as I can recall).


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> (his usual trolling nonsense)


Nice to see you back Pete 

To be honest, I have much more interesting things to do than worry about profit margins on a few TiVo upgrade hard drives these days 

The only reason I mentioned the cost of the StarTech adapters was not as a dig at Mike but because I hadn't tried them due to the cost. However, if they're really that good and mean you don't need a SmartStart then the price is indeed justified and I may see if I can be bothered to find some and give them a try.

In the meantime, carry on trolling


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> I have much more interesting things to do than worry about profit margins on a few TiVo upgrade hard drives these days
> 
> The only reason I mentioned the cost of the StarTech adapters was not as a dig at Mike but because I hadn't tried them due to the cost.


Can I take it that the interesting things you are doing with your time these days are nonetheless unfortunately not financially remunerative given that it has apparently become a big deal for you to decide whether or not to spend £17 on a single IDE to SATA adapter?


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