# Want a MPEG-4 DVR with TiVo from DirecTV?



## BlankMan

I sent a semi detailed email to Chase Carey this morning at 10:22 CDT detailing some of the functional deficiencies and missing features in DirecTV's R20 DVR verses the the HR10-250 with TiVo DVR. Also asking when I might see a DirecTV HD MPEG-4 Receiver with TiVo. At 13:26 CDT I received a call from Arien at DirecTV Corporate Headquarters.

I spent just over 40 minutes talking with Arien regarding the R20 verses HR10-250 and what all the HR10-250 does that the R20 does not, and what the R20 does do but not that well. About all that really came out of the call was that if DirecTV customers really want the TiVo interface, then they have to let DirecTV know that.

I know it seems that talking to a DirecTV CSR is useless and I mentioned that, he tried to assure me that it is not. He explained that when customers call and request things like channels, features and such, the CSR has the capability to log those requests in a format meant specifically for that purpose, add them to a list per se, and those requests are reviewed and tallied each and every day and forwarded on. These sort of requests can also be made on DirecTV's web site via the Send Email feature on the Contact Us page.

I mentioned that it seems like when ever this is done it just goes into a black hole. Arien assured me that although they may not always respond, they do review all that is sent to them. And I'll have to agree with that. This wasn't the first time I emailed Mr. Carey since Murdoch departed, probably my third or fourth, but this one got a direct fast response.

So, all of you that would really like to get TiVo back in your DirecTV DVR's, now is your opportunity to let DirecTV know that. Email them or call them and tell them, don't say it won't work, because you're right, it won't if you don't.

Point out things that you miss, that the TiVo has, or does better. Some of the things I pointed out were, losing the buffer when flipping between tuners, the Guide i.e. being able to see the next 8 programs coming up on a channel not just the next 2 without scrolling, having programs in the Guide that don't have any episode information but looking on the TiVo DVR it has it, not being able to scroll back through the Guide to see a program that aired 4 hours ago (I find this useful at times for information or so that I can easily find a future airing of it to record), in Managing Recordings --> Prioritizer it doesn't tell you what channel it will record the show on (I sometimes record a show on two different channels to get more episodes of it), slow response to buttons on the remote, etc.

We also discussed that Dish's TurboHD claims to be all 1080p, Arien said DirecTV is headed there.

And yes, I write my Alderman, Mayor, Governor, State and Federal Legislatures too.


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## madbeachcat

That ship has sailed. I do not beleive DirecTv would ever go back. There is no reason for them too.


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## BlankMan

You give up to easy.


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## TonyTheTiger

Oh no, not again!


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## BlankMan

madbeachcat said:


> That ship has sailed. I do not beleive DirecTv would ever go back. There is no reason for them too.





TonyTheTiger said:


> Oh no, not again!


Geeeze... I write to Chase Carey CEO of DirecTV, I get a phone call from his assistant within hours, and all I'm seeing here are nay sayers??


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## bigpuma

I would like to see TiVo be allowed to make a box even if it costs more, however I am happy enough with the HR2x so I am not sure how to answer your poll. I probably wouldn't pay more money just to have a TiVo box though so I don't see why DirecTV would want to go back to TiVo, especially considering their most recent conference call.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1721687#post1721687


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## shibby191

> We also discussed that Dish's TurboHD claims to be all 1080p, Arien said DirecTV is headed there.


Just to clarify, Dish doesn't claim to be all 1080p, they just have a 1080p VOD channel (although their advertising is certainly misleading). DirecTV announced in a press release last month that they will also be doing 1080p as well starting August 14th. HR20 and HR21 are both capable of doing 1080p thru a software upgrade.


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## shibby191

BlankMan said:


> in Managing Recordings --> Prioritizer it doesn't tell you what channel it will record the show on (I sometimes record a show on two different channels to get more episodes of it)


This request is in the latest CE release. Be sure to post your requests for improvements at DBSTalk as DirecTV does read them. I know it's not the point of your thread but just an FYI.

Definitely tell DirecTV what you want. It's the only way they'll know.


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## direfan

I will make sure to let the CSRs know about my preference for TIVO. Because IMHO the DTV DVR is a POS.


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## 20TIL6

For what it's worth, I submitted an email asking for TiVo on their site.

And I'd pay a higher DVR service fee, and I'd give them a commitment longer than two years. I was with DTV for over 13 years and for nearly half of those it was with DirecTV/TiVo units. They had a real commitment from me without even asking for one. That's what you get with a really happy customer, and I was just that when DirecTV and TiVo were together.

I've been angry about it, but that's done no good. The fact is, if DTV were to bring TiVo back with a new compatible MPEG4 HD DVR, I'd IMMEDIATELY sign back up. Nothing would hold me back. Criticize me if you will, but as a consumer, that is what I want. And on the flip side, as long as DTV does not offer TiVo, I will not be a DTV customer. I know, one person, big deal, DTV is growing without me. Great. But that's how I feel about it.


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## zamzickles

If they build it, some of us will buy it. Particularly, if the features have improved since the last build of HR10-250s. Having no choices makes us feel like the cable customers many of us used to be. The dumbing down of features and capabilities for the sake of CSRs and technological newbies is the reason we came to D*. If D* wants to build cheep boxes for the masses that's fine but at least allow builders with superior visions for the future to make products we actually want.


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## TonyTheTiger

BlankMan said:


> Geeeze... I write to Chase Carey CEO of DirecTV, I get a phone call from his assistant within hours, and all I'm seeing here are nay sayers??


I don't care if you got a call from the POTUS, it ain't gonna happen. If you think you're the first to have these delusions, think again.

We see a post like this about once every other week. What makes yours any different?

You set the time period and I'll put up $100 against whatever you want that it will not happen.


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## BlankMan

TonyTheTiger said:


> I don't care if you got a call from the POTUS, it ain't gonna happen. If you think you're the first to have these delusions, think again.
> 
> We see a post like this about once every other week. What makes yours any different?
> 
> You set the time period and I'll put up $100 against whatever you want that it will not happen.


You don't think it's going to happen, you don't want see another thread, then why are you spending you're time posting to it? Seems hypocritical to me. Just go away and ignore it.

If it happens it happens, if it doesn't it doesn't. I and others care to try, you don't, so let's leave it at that.

Ahhhh.... I just noticed your moniker _Pro Troll Magnet_ I don't think you're acting like the magnet in this case though.


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## BlankMan

Of the people that love their DTV DVR, I have to ask if they ever had and used a TiVo unit for more then a year?


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## direfan

BlankMan said:


> You don't think it's going to happen, you don't want see another thread, then why are you spending you're time posting to it? Seems hypocritical to me. Just go away and ignore it.
> 
> If it happens it happens, if it doesn't it doesn't. I and others care to try, you don't, so let's leave it at that.
> 
> Ahhhh.... I just noticed your moniker _Pro Troll Magnet_ I don't think you're acting like the magnet in this case though.


Sounds like a reasonable request to me!


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## shibby191

BlankMan said:


> Of the people that love their DTV DVR, I have to ask if they ever had and used a TiVo unit for more then a year?


There have been dozens and dozens of threads on this one as well over the past 3 years or so. If you'd go to DBSTalk, which is the top place for DirecTV DVR talk, you'll find that many of the people there were LOOOONG time members here and have used Tivo for many, many years.

To answer the question:
Got my first stand alone Tivo in 2000, the good old Sony SVR2000 I think was the model number.
In 2001 when the DirecTivo's finally were available I got the T-60, only one tuner was active at the time, took Tivo 6 months or so to activate the second tuner. Hacked in a bigger hard drive.
Had near half a dozen DirecTivo's in service over the years, still have an R10 in service.
Wanted HD which required an HR20. Got that nearly 2 years ago. Got a 2nd one (HR21 this time) about a year ago. 
I've come to like the HR20/21 interface better then the Tivo over time. 
They record and I watch, don't need a whole lot more then that. They keep adding features and it keeps getting better. DirecTV responds to feedback and tweaks or adds features all the time.

Not sure why people get so religious that their DVR has to be Tivo but hey, that is your right and if there are key Tivo features you just can't live without then by all means find a place that will give you that. But DirecTV ain't the place for that, that horse left the barn years ago and ain't coming back, it's in the glue factory. If you'd listen to the DirecTV quarterly calls or the 2 year plan investor call earlier this year you'd realize that Tivo isn't even a whisper in their plans.

I admire the want for it but it's a lot of wasted effort really. Over half a million DirecTivo's were unsubbed last year and that number only accelerates. Yet DirecTV grows, not shrinks. If it were the other way around then you might have some teeth behind your effort.

Anyway, good luck. Unfortunately a few hundred/thousand Tivo diehards aren't going to convince DirecTV, pushing 18 *million* subs, nearly half of which are using the DirecTV inhouse DVR, to switch back to Tivo. But again, good luck!


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## 20TIL6

TonyTheTiger said:


> We see a post like this about once every other week.


That's an interesting point you just made, intended or not.


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## bigpuma

BlankMan said:


> Of the people that love their DTV DVR, I have to ask if they ever had and used a TiVo unit for more then a year?


I've had several direcTiVos since 2002 including the SAT-T60, SD DVR120, R10 and HR10-250. In fact I still have the HR10-250 although it is only used for SD at this point. I really like the TiVO interface but I also like the HR2* interface as well. I currently have an HR20-700 and an HR21-100. There are things I like better about the TiVo like DLBs but there are things I like better about the HR2* like the speed vs. TiVo and other DirecTV interactive features. All in all there isn't enough better about the TiVo IMO to warrant paying more for it. The DirecTV DVR does everything I need it to do.

I can certainly understand why people like TiVo and would like to see an opportunity for TiVo to compete in the satelite market but since it can't I will stick with DirecTV.

ETA: I have had the HR20 since October of 2006 so I think I have significant experience with both.


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## BlankMan

*shibby191* thanks for the comments, very interesting, and I was there with you back in 2001, still have 2 T60's subbed, each with 240 hours and ethernet. I use them for SD recording so can maximize HD on the HD DVR's.

I suppose I could probably learn to live with the HR20 if three things were addressed, not in the order of importance: The slow response to keypresses on the remote, annoying. Not losing the buffer when switching between tuners, this is major. I typically watch two football games at a time, I pause one, watch the other, pause it, go back to the first, blowing through the commercials and repeat the process until both games are over. I guess I could record them both but that's a waste of space and may cause a program to be deleted (especially in HD) to make room that I haven't seen yet. The Guide, TivO'S Guide where you see the upcoming 8 programs for a channel at a glance without having to constantly scroll right. And TiVo's Guide shows you 2 more channels at a time, not a biggy but nice.

IMO TiVo has done a much better job ergonomics's wise.

It's not just that I'm a die hard TiVo fan, I've had my differences with them, it's that the TiVo's user interface, and I hate to use this term, is much more user friendly IMO. And the reason DTV DVR's don't buffer both tuners is I believe due to copyright or patents, whatever. So the things I consider _must have's_, may not be in DTV DRV's for a long time to come.

If you don't try you'll never succeed. I live by the thought that nothing is really impossible, it's just takes a little longer.


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## magnus

I voted that I could care less because that ship has sailed. D* and me... have parted ways for good.



> About all that really came out of the call was that if DirecTV customers really want the TiVo interface, then they have to let DirecTV know that.


You've got to be kidding. Do you really think D* cares? If they have not seen enough of us leave by now then I'm sure they won't miss what few are left.


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## BlankMan

*bigpuma* what speed are you referring too? my HR20 is a dog waiting for it do what the button I just pressed is supposed to do. I find the HR10-250, even the T60's to be more responsive. Especially since TiVo addressed the slowness in the 3.5x software release. They are quick now, sorting happenings pretty much immediately and both T60's are always full at their 240 hour limit. I'm wondering if I have a lame HR20??


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## bigpuma

BlankMan said:


> *bigpuma* what speed are you referring too? my HR20 is a dog waiting for it do what the button I just pressed is supposed to do. I find the HR10-250, even the T60's to be more responsive. Especially since TiVo addressed the slowness in the 3.5x software release. They are quick now, sorting happenings pretty much immediately and both T60's are always full at their 240 hour limit. I'm wondering if I have a lame HR20??


The biggest difference is with the season pass manager vs. prioritizer. I used to dread making changes on the TiVo because it would take up to 5 minutes to complete. I use the prioritizer on the HR2* all the time now, which makes the 50 series link limit easier to deal with. That is the other advantage of TiVo. Other than that setting up series links seems faster on the HR20. I have had problems at times with the HR20 responding to button pushes but that is pretty rare. I haven't really used the HR10 much in a year and a half so it is definitely possible they have improved the speed.

ETA: Just to clarify I think overall the TiVo is probably better, especially since I am comparing it to an older version, however I am not sure it is enough better to make me care enough about switching back. The HR2* does what I want it to do and it has been reliable for me.


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## shibby191

BlankMan said:


> The slow response to keypresses on the remote, annoying.


Not really sure what you're talking about here. I have never had a problem with the keypresses. Sounds to me like you have an issue like some IR interferrence or something. Suggest maybe replacing the remote or try RF mode and see if that helps. Stop by DBSTalk for specific help.



> Not losing the buffer when switching between tuners, this is major. I typically watch two football games at a time, I pause one, watch the other, pause it, go back to the first, blowing through the commercials and repeat the process until both games are over. I guess I could record them both but that's a waste of space and may cause a program to be deleted (especially in HD) to make room that I haven't seen yet.


Understood. Space problem could be solved with using an eSata drive, say 1 TB or so. But yes, that's just a bandaid. However, in the last couple CE's there have been enhancements and it's pretty darn close to dual buffers now. You can retain pause points on both a recorded program and the buffer so you could now easily record your main football game and then use the buffer to surf around. This is exactly how I'd use DLB on the Tivo, I'd have one buffer on my team and have the other buffer to surf around. You can now do the same thing on the HR20/21, just record that one game. Not true DLB but little enhancements are getting it pretty close. But then again I learned quickly even on the Tivo to record the one game of my team anyway since all it takes is a channel change mistake and you just flushed the whole buffer. 



> The Guide, TivO'S Guide where you see the upcoming 8 programs for a channel at a glance without having to constantly scroll right. And TiVo's Guide shows you 2 more channels at a time, not a biggy but nice.


Well unfortunately there is a reason why it's called the "Tivo" guide and not found on any other DVR. There is something close though on the HR2x. Left arrow to highlight the channel number and hit Info. This will load up the entire 2 weeks guide data for that channel. One touch record your way to your hearts content. Left arrow back to the guide, rinse/repeat. Not the same but it's what there is.

I know that neither explanation "solves" the problem or differences and someone like RS4 will come in this thread and rant and rave about something but honestly that doesn't help anyone. I'd suggest DBSTalk for more discussion on how to get the most of your DVR. For me content and price are why I stick with DirecTV. What the DVR UI is I could care less. Thus it was an easy transition for me as I had an open mind. Maybe it helped that I just don't watch much live TV thus DLB really doesn't matter to me and what the guide looks like just doesn't matter either. But that's just me. As I've told people over and over if *Tivo* is your number 1 thing then start looking around for other options. Perhaps you are lucky and have a great cable option or FIOS. You never know. Be happy, doesn't make sense to get upset over a TV provider. Now if for me the HR2x were junk and didn't work I would have gone to Charter, as bad as they are, long ago. I don't pay for a service that doesn't work.


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## shibby191

BlankMan said:


> *bigpuma* what speed are you referring too? my HR20 is a dog waiting for it do what the button I just pressed is supposed to do. I find the HR10-250, even the T60's to be more responsive. Especially since TiVo addressed the slowness in the 3.5x software release. They are quick now, sorting happenings pretty much immediately and both T60's are always full at their 240 hour limit. I'm wondering if I have a lame HR20??


You definately have some sort of issue as I mentioned above. See if you have some IR interferrence, try RF instead or try a new remote.


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## TonyTheTiger

BlankMan said:


> You don't think it's going to happen, you don't want see another thread, then why are you spending you're time posting to it? Seems hypocritical to me. Just go away and ignore it.
> 
> If it happens it happens, if it doesn't it doesn't. I and others care to try, you don't, so let's leave it at that.
> 
> Ahhhh.... I just noticed your moniker _Pro Troll Magnet_ I don't think you're acting like the magnet in this case though.


So your response is to launch personal attacks on people who don't agree with you? ...and you call ME a troll.

Nice.


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## RS4

shibby191 said:


> Not really sure what you're talking about here. I have never had a problem with the keypresses. Sounds to me like you have an issue like some IR interferrence or something. Suggest maybe replacing the remote or try RF mode and see if that helps. Stop by DBSTalk for specific help.
> 
> Understood. Space problem could be solved with using an eSata drive, say 1 TB or so. But yes, that's just a bandaid. However, in the last couple CE's there have been enhancements and it's pretty darn close to dual buffers now. You can retain pause points on both a recorded program and the buffer so you could now easily record your main football game and then use the buffer to surf around. This is exactly how I'd use DLB on the Tivo, I'd have one buffer on my team and have the other buffer to surf around. You can now do the same thing on the HR20/21, just record that one game. Not true DLB but little enhancements are getting it pretty close. But then again I learned quickly even on the Tivo to record the one game of my team anyway since all it takes is a channel change mistake and you just flushed the whole buffer.
> 
> Well unfortunately there is a reason why it's called the "Tivo" guide and not found on any other DVR. There is something close though on the HR2x. Left arrow to highlight the channel number and hit Info. This will load up the entire 2 weeks guide data for that channel. One touch record your way to your hearts content. Left arrow back to the guide, rinse/repeat. Not the same but it's what there is.
> 
> I know that neither explanation "solves" the problem or differences and someone like RS4 will come in this thread and rant and rave about something but honestly that doesn't help anyone. I'd suggest DBSTalk for more discussion on how to get the most of your DVR. For me content and price are why I stick with DirecTV. What the DVR UI is I could care less. Thus it was an easy transition for me as I had an open mind. Maybe it helped that I just don't watch much live TV thus DLB really doesn't matter to me and what the guide looks like just doesn't matter either. But that's just me. As I've told people over and over if *Tivo* is your number 1 thing then start looking around for other options. Perhaps you are lucky and have a great cable option or FIOS. You never know. Be happy, doesn't make sense to get upset over a TV provider. Now if for me the HR2x were junk and didn't work I would have gone to Charter, as bad as they are, long ago. I don't pay for a service that doesn't work.


It's interesting that you talk about me being a Tivo fan boy on a Tivo forum. I'm the one person on here who actually points to real numbers showing Direct in a poor second or third place in popularity. Everyone else like you just come on here and say how happy you are to settle for second best.

You've only been posting since December, and your only goal seems to have been to continue to make excuses for a box that large numbers of folks consider mediocre. I wonder why you're here... no I don't, it's pretty clear in my mind already

You talk about D* listening - one question - how's that DLB feature working? What's it been 3 years since folks have been clamoring for this? D* clearly listens to what D* wants to. Long before the other boxes were even talked about, people here were sending emails and signing petitions asking them to turn on features that were available in the standalone Tivo boxes. However, they chose to ignore that until they announced their own box, and then surprise, surprise - many of the features we were asking for were suddenly going to be available in the new box. So here it is 3 or 4 years later and they're still trying to get some of that stuff going.

My suggestion is to be careful about using words such as 'never' and 'always'. Now that D* is no longer the growth leader, they may find that they really miss us Tivo users who left. Or who knows, the FCC may force them to open up the connections the way they did cable.


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## RS4

BlankMan said:


> I sent a semi detailed email to Chase Carey this morning at 10:22 CDT detailing some of the functional deficiencies and missing features in DirecTV's R20 DVR verses the the HR10-250 with TiVo DVR. Also asking when I might see a DirecTV HD MPEG-4 Receiver with TiVo. At 13:26 CDT I received a call from Arien at DirecTV Corporate Headquarters.
> 
> I spent just over 40 minutes talking with Arien regarding the R20 verses HR10-250 and what all the HR10-250 does that the R20 does not, and what the R20 does do but not that well. About all that really came out of the call was that if DirecTV customers really want the TiVo interface, then they have to let DirecTV know that.
> 
> I know it seems that talking to a DirecTV CSR is useless and I mentioned that, he tried to assure me that it is not. He explained that when customers call and request things like channels, features and such, the CSR has the capability to log those requests in a format meant specifically for that purpose, add them to a list per se, and those requests are reviewed and tallied each and every day and forwarded on. These sort of requests can also be made on DirecTV's web site via the Send Email feature on the Contact Us page.
> 
> I mentioned that it seems like when ever this is done it just goes into a black hole. Arien assured me that although they may not always respond, they do review all that is sent to them. And I'll have to agree with that. This wasn't the first time I emailed Mr. Carey since Murdoch departed, probably my third or fourth, but this one got a direct fast response.
> 
> So, all of you that would really like to get TiVo back in your DirecTV DVR's, now is your opportunity to let DirecTV know that. Email them or call them and tell them, don't say it won't work, because you're right, it won't if you don't.
> 
> Point out things that you miss, that the TiVo has, or does better. Some of the things I pointed out were, losing the buffer when flipping between tuners, the Guide i.e. being able to see the next 8 programs coming up on a channel not just the next 2 without scrolling, having programs in the Guide that don't have any episode information but looking on the TiVo DVR it has it, not being able to scroll back through the Guide to see a program that aired 4 hours ago (I find this useful at times for information or so that I can easily find a future airing of it to record), in Managing Recordings --> Prioritizer it doesn't tell you what channel it will record the show on (I sometimes record a show on two different channels to get more episodes of it), slow response to buttons on the remote, etc.
> 
> We also discussed that Dish's TurboHD claims to be all 1080p, Arien said DirecTV is headed there.
> 
> And yes, I write my Alderman, Mayor, Governor, State and Federal Legislatures too.


BlankMan, I admire that you have taken the time to let D* know about your feelings for Tivo, and that you have encouraged others to do likewise. I too had sent them 3 emails and called them 3 times over the past few years expressing my desire to stay with Tivo. Then I followed through with my wallet a few months ago and left D* switching to Comcast.

I think communication from customers is important, even if it doesn't turn out the way we would like, and might even encourage D* and Tivo to see if they can't come up with a product that would benefit both companies.

It's a shame that folks feel the need to criticize your efforts. One would think that someone suggesting more video opportunities for Tivo users on a Tivo forum would get some applause. Instead, we find that the D* army of fanboys has come over here explaining why your idea is so awful and why they are willing to settle for second best.


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## mr.unnatural

Well, let's analyze the situation here and see how it plays out. DirecTV once had an agreement with Tivo to develop software and DVRs for use on their system. Everything was hunky dory for a while and then DirecTV decided they wanted to take control of the DVR service and pay Tivo a royalty for using their software. I believe that DirecTV paid Tivo something like $1 for each DVR fee they collected. Then, DirecTV got the brilliant idea that if they made their own DVR they could collect the entire DVR fee instead of paying Tivo any royalties so that's when they dumped Tivo and offered their own DVR.

A lot of fussing ensued so DirecTV relented and renewed their agreement with Tivo to continue supporting existing Tivos. DirecTV stopped offering Tivos to subscribers but would activate used hardware with certain stipulations (i.e. only owned units vs. leased). 

At this point, DirecTV has invested something on the order of millions of dollars developing and manufacturing their brand of DVRs. They are continuing to offer new models and are constantly updating the software to fix bugs and add new features that their customers have requested.

Now here are the real facts. The number of DirecTV subscribers that are griping about the loss of Tivo-based DVRs is in the vast minority. Many DVR users have embraced the newer HD-DVRs and have forsaken the HR10-250 HDTivos. The demand for Tivo-based DirecTV DVRs is far less than you might think and is definitely much less than when they first introduced the HR20 HD-DVR. Many people actually prefer the HR20 and the newer models. The bottom line is that DirecTV is not going to simply abandon a product line they've spent millions of dollars developing and improving just to make a few subscribers happy. They definitely won't be willing to go back to a system that will reduce their profit margin because they are in business to make money, plain and simple. 

All the phone calls and e-mails to the CEO of DirecTV isn't going to change their minds on this issue unless you get literally millions of subscribers to support it. Keep in mind that DVR users make up only a small portion of DirecTV's subscriber base and you'll finally come to grips with the reality that going back to a Tivo DVR with DirecTV ain't gonna happen so live with it. Your only option is to suck it up and deal with the situation or switch to a provider that will allow you to use a Tivo. I switched to FIOS over 18 months ago and never looked back. The only way you'll ever convince DirecTV that leaving Tivo was a bad choice is to start hitting them where it hurts - in the pocketbook.


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## direfan

TonyTheTiger said:


> So your response is to launch personal attacks on people who don't agree with you? ...and you call ME a troll.
> 
> Nice.


Dude give it a rest. The only reason you are participating on this thread is to act as a troll. It is a tired act!


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## TonyTheTiger

direfan said:


> Dude give it a rest. The only reason you are participating on this thread is to act as a troll. It is a tired act!


So you want to join in the personal attacks, eh? If you want to talk about tired acts, look at the bandwagoner in the mirror!

All these threads do is give the same people the opportunity to wheel out the same tired old speeches. The forum is intended to help people with their problems and not spout propaganda at every chance you get!

For information, I have no sides in the argument. I have both D* DVRs and TiVo-based D* DVRs. In fact, I'm about to call D* to get them to replace a DOA replacement HR21.

Yes, I prefer TiVo software, but I also realize the fact that D* has moved on and that ship has sailed.

So don't attack me for my point of view. You don't see me launching personal attacks on anyone I disagree with, do you? At least I explain my position! Try something that many people here find difficult, apparently - think for yourself!

If you have an opinion and would like to discuss it, do it where it should be - in a discussion area, not in a help forum.

Otherwise, don't waste my (or anyone else's) time with innane rants and unfounded accusations.


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## bazooka17511

TonyTheTiger said:


> So you want to join in the personal attacks, eh? If you want to talk about tired acts, look at the bandwagoner in the mirror!
> 
> All these threads do is give the same people the opportunity to wheel out the same tired old speeches. The forum is intended to help people with their problems and not spout propaganda at every chance you get!
> 
> For information, I have no sides in the argument. I have both D* DVRs and TiVo-based D* DVRs. In fact, I'm about to call D* to get them to replace a DOA replacement HR21.
> 
> Yes, I prefer TiVo software, but I also realize the fact that D* has moved on and that ship has sailed.
> 
> So don't attack me for my point of view. You don't see me launching personal attacks on anyone I disagree with, do you? At least I explain my position! Try something that many people here find difficult, apparently - think for yourself!
> 
> If you have an opinion and would like to discuss it, do it where it should be - in a discussion area, not in a help forum.
> 
> Otherwise, don't waste my (or anyone else's) time with innane rants and unfounded accusations.


I am not going to do a personal attack, but I am with blankman on this issue. In response to your post the name of the forum is DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs Not DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs With problems!

In my opinion why cant there be room at D* for both interfaces. Give a choice and make 100% of your customers happy instead of 60-40 Which is the 60 and which is the 40 is clear in the poll results.

I would come back to D* if they offered a S3 HD MPg 4 tivo with all the features of the S/A.


----------



## CuriousMark

I currently use DirecTV SD receivers with two Series 2 TiVos. In the next year I plan to buy an HDTV and will want to get an HD DVR for it. At that time, if DTV does not have an HD TiVo with MPEG4 I will probably switch to cable. The pipe is not important to me. Having a consistent user interface on all my DVRs and the ability to MRV between them is more important to me. If DTV cannot give that to me, then they aren't competitive and will be left in my dust as I move on. Hopefully DTV will offer something I am interested in by the time I add HD, but if not, no biggy, cable has never been better or worse for me. (We originally joined DTV based on price over cable, but the difference was marginal and would pales in comparison to wanting a consistent UI).

I noted that some here thought that supporting a TiVo would mean giving up their own DVR offerings. I don't see why that would or should be the case. Is DTV's desire to control the UI so important to them that they would drop customers? Perhaps that is so, but I don't understand why as it doesn't seem to make economic sense.


----------



## RS4

CuriousMark said:


> ...
> 
> I noted that some here thought that supporting a TiVo would mean giving up their own DVR offerings. I don't see why that would or should be the case. Is DTV's desire to control the UI so important to them that they would drop customers? Perhaps that is so, but I don't understand why as it doesn't seem to make economic sense.


I think that makes the most sense. We have no idea of the economics involved, but I'm sure a pricing structure could be made where both D* and Tivo could benefit along with the customers - even if they do it like they do Tivo now, where the client pays a fee to Tivo.

Direct would have a lot more happy customers if they were offered a choice.


----------



## RS4

TonyTheTiger said:


> So you want to join in the personal attacks, eh? If you want to talk about tired acts, look at the bandwagoner in the mirror!
> 
> All these threads do is give the same people the opportunity to wheel out the same tired old speeches. The forum is intended to help people with their problems and not spout propaganda at every chance you get!
> 
> For information, I have no sides in the argument. I have both D* DVRs and TiVo-based D* DVRs. In fact, I'm about to call D* to get them to replace a DOA replacement HR21.
> 
> Yes, I prefer TiVo software, but I also realize the fact that D* has moved on and that ship has sailed.
> 
> So don't attack me for my point of view. You don't see me launching personal attacks on anyone I disagree with, do you? At least I explain my position! Try something that many people here find difficult, apparently - think for yourself!
> 
> If you have an opinion and would like to discuss it, do it where it should be - in a discussion area, not in a help forum.
> 
> Otherwise, don't waste my (or anyone else's) time with innane rants and unfounded accusations.


I find it hard to understand your logic. This Tivo forum has always been about Tivo questions and ideas related to Tivo. In fact, we find the same kinds of questions being asked several times, but the proper response is to answer the question in a helpful way, or ignore the thread.

Likewise, there are many threads offering suggestions or asking for opinions - and there have been ever since I first looked at this forum years ago. I'm not quite sure why you find it necessary to voice your displeasure if you don't like a particular thread.


----------



## Jebberwocky!

Would I like to see a TIVO offered by DTV - sure

Would I buy a TIVO offered by DTV - maybe

Am I happy with the current HR2X HD DVR offered by DTV - yes

Could the HR2X be improved on? - Yes, just like everything else including TIVOs

Is the HR2X better then the 10-250? In many cases yes, in other cases no. If they could only combine the best features of each one


----------



## bigpuma

RS4 said:


> It's interesting that you talk about me being a Tivo fan boy on a Tivo forum. I'm the one person on here who actually points to real numbers showing Direct in a poor second or third place in popularity.


I must have missed when you actually posted a link to this data. I have seen you make this statement about the "real" numbers but never see a link. Perhaps you have provided it in the past but I would suggest bookmarking these surveys so you can post a link when you make these claims. That way I would know what you were talking about. Not that I don't trust you.


----------



## Jebberwocky!

bigpuma said:


> I must have missed when you actually posted a link to this data. I have seen you make this statement about the "real" numbers but never see a link. Perhaps you have provided it in the past but I would suggest bookmarking these surveys so you can post a link when you make these claims. That way I would know what you were talking about. Not that I don't trust you.


you'll keep on waiting - he/she can't produce what doesn't exist.


----------



## 20TIL6

RS4 said:


> I think that makes the most sense. We have no idea of the economics involved, but I'm sure a pricing structure could be made where both D* and Tivo could benefit along with the customers - even if they do it like they do Tivo now, where the client pays a fee to Tivo.
> 
> Direct would have a lot more happy customers if they were offered a choice.


Right. Why can't DTV allow TiVo to be offered for a premium over their standard DVR fee? Like $6 for the DTV DVR fee, and $9 for the DTV/TiVo DVR fee. DTV and TiVo could split that $3. TiVo gets a license fee, DTV gets a bit of scratch to help with support of the additional platform, they BOTH get more customers, and DTV DVR customers and TiVo DVR customers BOTH get what they want.

Does DTV need to do this? No, they don't. But I really can't see where such a deal would hurt them in any way. Continue to develop the feature set on their in-house platform, let TiVo do the same for their platform. Let the consumer decide if the TiVo platform is competitive enough to pay the extra $3.

To me, there is obviously still demand for TiVo on DirecTV. It's like the war on drugs sort of.... if you legalize and then tax the crap out of the demand, you end up with more than enough revenue to support any ill-effects of the consumption. Imagine if DirecTV funneled their portion of the "TiVo tax" into the further development of their platform, and made it even more competitive feature-wise (at an already lower fee). That would be quite the TiVo addiction recovery program.

But to deflect inevitable flames, let me say again, DirecTV is not in any way driven to do this. Their core service is superior to anyone else, save FiOS. But unlike FiOS, DirecTV is available nearly everywhere. Their DVR platform is not what gains them customers, and they don't need it to.


----------



## TonyTheTiger

RS4 said:


> I find it hard to understand your logic. This Tivo forum has always been about Tivo questions and ideas related to Tivo. In fact, we find the same kinds of questions being asked several times, *but the proper response is to answer the question in a helpful way, or ignore the thread.
> *


Pot, meet kettle!



RS4 said:


> Likewise, there are many threads offering suggestions or asking for opinions - and there have been ever since I first looked at this forum years ago. I'm not quite sure why you find it necessary to voice your displeasure if you don't like a particular thread.


Again, pot meet kettle!

I'm not getting into it with you again. You KNOW my sentiment, especially when people who don't have D* or even own D* equipment come here to stir up the whole thing, spouting non-existent or extremely biased "polls" and "facts" (mostly the former).

As for your last statement, I merely responded to the OP with an opinion of my own. Something wrong with that?

AFAIK, pointing out the futility of wishing for something that ain't going to happen is not against the rules. At least I'm not ramming it down their throat like others do.

If you read the whole thread, you'll see that _I'm_ the one being attacked here.


----------



## BlankMan

TonyTheTiger said:


> So your response is to launch personal attacks on people who don't agree with you? ...and you call ME a troll.
> 
> Nice.


I've seen that you resort to this in other threads. Claiming to be the innocent victim being attacked. *Hint Hint:* It not working.

Your first post was that this is a useless cause, give it up, this thread should not have been started, it's been done, yada yada yada. Antagonistic. Fine. That's your opinion you expressed it.

If this subject is such a useless cause, waste of space and your time, why do you keep posting to it?? Very hypocritical. And that's not an attack, that an observation based on your behavior.

And from the looks of this thread, others share my opinion, so please go find a different thread to antagonize.


----------



## BlankMan

bigpuma said:


> The biggest difference is with the season pass manager vs. prioritizer.


Gooood point. That did not enter my mind and I agree with you 100%, making a Season Pass change and waiting for it to commit is a PITA. I usually switch to one of my other DVR's and let it finish processing.


----------



## TonyTheTiger

BlankMan said:


> I've seen that you resort to this in other threads. Claiming to be the innocent victim being attacked. *Hint Hint:* It not working.


Really? Where?



BlankMan said:


> Your first post was that this is a useless cause, give it up, this thread should not have been started, it's been done, yada yada yada. Antagonistic. Fine. That's your opinion you expressed it.


Absolutely. We're all entitled to our opinions, whether they're wrong or right!



BlankMan said:


> If this subject is such a useless cause, waste of space and your time, why do you keep posting to it?? Very hypocritical. And that's not an attack, that an observation based on your behavior.


How about the fact that someone (*hint hint*) accused me of being a troll for expressing my opinion? Where's the hypocracy? Please don't make stuff up and then call me hypocritical.



BlankMan said:


> And from the looks of this thread, others share my opinion, so please go find a different thread to antagonize.


Well, that's exactly what I would have done had you not accused me of being a troll!

As for being antagonistic, I think you have that title all to yourself.


----------



## jimb726

bazooka17511 said:


> I am not going to do a personal attack, but I am with blankman on this issue. In response to your post the name of the forum is DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs Not DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs With problems!
> 
> In my opinion why cant there be room at D* for both interfaces. Give a choice and make 100% of your customers happy instead of 60-40 Which is the 60 and which is the 40 is clear in the poll results.
> 
> I would come back to D* if they offered a S3 HD MPg 4 tivo with all the features of the S/A.


Sorry but if you think 40% of their customers have to have a TiVo, I would suspect that perhaps you might just be a teeny bit off of the mark. 40% of the folks on a TiVo forum, representing, perhaps tens of thousands of accounts out of 18 million is more likely the ration and at the end of the day, the number of folks actually willing to walk away over this is even smaller. It is just an inconsequential number. If more folks backed up their mouths with their wallets then perhaps DirecTv might want to listen, but the reality is they are still adding subscribers quarterly. Period.


----------



## jimb726

CuriousMark said:


> I currently use DirecTV SD receivers with two Series 2 TiVos. In the next year I plan to buy an HDTV and will want to get an HD DVR for it. At that time, if DTV does not have an HD TiVo with MPEG4 I will probably switch to cable. The pipe is not important to me. Having a consistent user interface on all my DVRs and the ability to MRV between them is more important to me. If DTV cannot give that to me, then they aren't competitive and will be left in my dust as I move on. Hopefully DTV will offer something I am interested in by the time I add HD, but if not, no biggy, cable has never been better or worse for me. (We originally joined DTV based on price over cable, but the difference was marginal and would pales in comparison to wanting a consistent UI).
> 
> I noted that some here thought that supporting a TiVo would mean giving up their own DVR offerings. I don't see why that would or should be the case. Is DTV's desire to control the UI so important to them that they would drop customers? Perhaps that is so, but I don't understand why as it doesn't seem to make economic sense.


You contradict yourself, a consistant interface is exactly what they are after. They want the same UI, the same platform to aid in everything from customer support to the installers. Folks can make suppositions all day long about how many additional customers DirecTv MIGHT be able to retain if they offered both platforms, but the additional expenses might far outwiegh the minimal number of additional subscribers. They are adding subscribers every quarter and it doesnt matter if its because of their DVR, or if its because of their expanded lineup or because of some other reason. They are adding customers when Dish is losing them. It makes sense that their economic model is working perfectly.


----------



## jimb726

RS4 said:


> I think that makes the most sense. We have no idea of the economics involved, but I'm sure a pricing structure could be made where both D* and Tivo could benefit along with the customers - even if they do it like they do Tivo now, where the client pays a fee to Tivo.
> 
> Direct would have a lot more happy customers if they were offered a choice.


There is na way that anyone could possibly know that. And what defines a "lot"? Is it 100 or a 1,000? Everyones view is different and everyones perception is their own reality. And as you yourself just said since no-one has an idea of the economics involved, how can you possibly be sure a pricing structure could be made. Once again if that $ amount was 15.00 a month ore more, how many folks would pay that? And unless I have missed something has there ever been an official release from TiVo that states that they even want to walk down this road?


----------



## BlankMan

shibby191 said:


> Not really sure what you're talking about here. I have never had a problem with the keypresses. Sounds to me like you have an issue like some IR interferrence or something. Suggest maybe replacing the remote or try RF mode and see if that helps. Stop by DBSTalk for specific help.


Well could be an IR issue but I doubt it. It's in the same room, using the same remote (MX-850) and the TiVo DVR's and they respond to keypresses quickly, as expected.

And yeah, I've accidentally hit the channel change too. And yeah I could record one, but in a perfect world I shouldn't have to that. Well in a TiVo World I don't have to do that.

Thanks for the tip on the Info button, I'll check that out, goes to reading the manual I guess...


----------



## bigpuma

BlankMan said:


> And yeah, I've accidentally hit the channel change too. And yeah I could record one, but in a perfect world I shouldn't have to that. Well in a TiVo World I don't have to do that.


I will say this I almost always ended up recording a program when switching between games on the TiVos due to the fact that I inevitably would hit the channel change button by accident. I haven't tried the work around for DLBs yet as I have gotten used to not having them. I will try it this football season for sure.


----------



## BlankMan

RS4 said:


> BlankMan, I admire that you have taken the time to let D* know about your feelings for Tivo, and that you have encouraged others to do likewise. I too had sent them 3 emails and called them 3 times over the past few years expressing my desire to stay with Tivo. Then I followed through with my wallet a few months ago and left D* switching to Comcast.
> 
> I think communication from customers is important, even if it doesn't turn out the way we would like, and might even encourage D* and Tivo to see if they can't come up with a product that would benefit both companies.
> 
> It's a shame that folks feel the need to criticize your efforts. One would think that someone suggesting more video opportunities for Tivo users on a Tivo forum would get some applause. Instead, we find that the D* army of fanboys has come over here explaining why your idea is so awful and why they are willing to settle for second best.


I've kicked the idea around of switching to TWC especially when TiVo came out with their HD Cable TiVo. But I had TWC and there is nothing good I have to say about them so I will say nothing. I also checked out U-Verse last year when it became available but it was pricey and being a former customer I have nothing good to say about AT&T/SBC/Ameritech either. They can change the name, but it's still the same mindset. Needless to say I do not use any products/services from either now.

According to Arien that called me, yes DirecTV takes communication from customers very seriously. Change never happens overnight, you have to be patient, and that probably is the problem with the people that claim its useless, DirecTV never listens, they're impatient and want it now. When that doesn't happen they give up and resort to negativism.

And thanks, as I've said, one can only try.


----------



## BlankMan

direfan said:


> Dude give it a rest. The only reason you are participating on this thread is to act as a troll. It is a tired act!


Couldn't agree more.


----------



## BlankMan

TonyTheTiger said:


> So you want to join in the personal attacks, eh? If you want to talk about tired acts, look at the bandwagoner in the mirror!
> 
> All these threads do is give the same people the opportunity to wheel out the same tired old speeches. The forum is intended to help people with their problems and not spout propaganda at every chance you get!
> 
> For information, I have no sides in the argument. I have both D* DVRs and TiVo-based D* DVRs. In fact, I'm about to call D* to get them to replace a DOA replacement HR21.
> 
> Yes, I prefer TiVo software, but I also realize the fact that D* has moved on and that ship has sailed.
> 
> So don't attack me for my point of view. You don't see me launching personal attacks on anyone I disagree with, do you? At least I explain my position! Try something that many people here find difficult, apparently - think for yourself!
> 
> If you have an opinion and would like to discuss it, do it where it should be - in a discussion area, not in a help forum.
> 
> Otherwise, don't waste my (or anyone else's) time with innane rants and unfounded accusations.


Please give it a rest. And please try to stay on topic. Which, in case you forgot, is if you would prefer to have a TiVO based DVR, contact DirecTV and let them know that. Thank you.


----------



## 20TIL6

TonyTheTiger said:


> As for being antagonistic, I think you have that title all to yourself.


Really?

Going to the start of the conversation,
*
Blankman:*

Boy I wish DirecTV and TiVo would get back together.... I talked with DirecTV on the phone and asked them about it. Maybe those of us that want this should contact DirecTV and share our thoughts about it. Blah, blah, blah.

*TonyTheTiger:*

Oh no, not again!

_-and-_

I don't care if you got a call from the POTUS, it ain't gonna happen. If you think you're the first to have these delusions, think again.

We see a post like this about once every other week. What makes yours any different?

You set the time period and I'll put up $100 against whatever you want that it will not happen.


----------



## BlankMan

bazooka17511 said:


> I am not going to do a personal attack, but I am with blankman on this issue. In response to your post the name of the forum is DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs Not DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs With problems!
> 
> In my opinion why cant there be room at D* for both interfaces. Give a choice and make 100% of your customers happy instead of 60-40 Which is the 60 and which is the 40 is clear in the poll results.
> 
> I would come back to D* if they offered a S3 HD MPg 4 tivo with all the features of the S/A.


Yes, thank you for pointing out the name and subject matter of this forum.

I agree having both interfaces and allowing the customer to choose would be nice, but I have to believe it wouldn't be cost effective for DirecTV and they would not want to absorb that additional cost overhead.

What you just said, that your would come back is exactly the kind of thing DirecTV needs to hear.


----------



## RS4

jimb726 said:


> There is na way that anyone could possibly know that. And what defines a "lot"? Is it 100 or a 1,000? Everyones view is different and everyones perception is their own reality. And as you yourself just said since no-one has an idea of the economics involved, how can you possibly be sure a pricing structure could be made. Once again if that $ amount was 15.00 a month ore more, how many folks would pay that? And unless I have missed something has there ever been an official release from TiVo that states that they even want to walk down this road?


Once again I find this argument hard to follow. Unless you know the numbers, your chastisement of me because of the opinions I expressed are totally baseless. We all know that Tivo has worked with D* before, so they have a basis assigning a cost to that part of the equation. We also know that Tivo knows how to do HD. We saw Tivo develop the Tivo HD in less than a year when compared to the S3. We just don't know how much any of these figures are. So only Tivo and D* can decide if it's worth taking a risk of developing a product for Tivo customers.

D* is still growing, but now is in second place to Verizon. Their growth in the last quarter was about 40% of the previous quarter. They are just lucky that Verizon doesn't pass by as many houses as Direct, or they might be growing negatively as Dish is.

My guess is that D* could give Tivo the license to access the network for free and still grow more than they are today, just in the subscription fees they would get.

In the end, just think how silly the argument is - 'we don't want to to allow another product to connect to our system because we might grow'

And yes, there were statements from Tivo a couple of times about working with D*.


----------



## BlankMan

CuriousMark said:


> I At that time, if DTV does not have an HD TiVo with MPEG4 I will probably switch to cable. The pipe is not important to me. Having a consistent user interface on all my DVRs and the ability to MRV between them is more important to me.


This too is exactly the thing DirecTV needs to hear, because customer retention is a big item with them. And the UI and features required also.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Nothing like a thread that turns into another pi$$ing contest over a topic that is long dead and won't ever come to pass, regardless of how much you ***** and whine about it. Give it a rest already. The topic doesn't need to be revived on a weekly basis.


----------



## TonyTheTiger

I'm not going to waste any more time on a discussion that includes people misquoting others and taking the parts out of a whole sequence of posts that make their point look good!

If you want a discussion on why your attempts are futile, then I will happily intelligently discuss it with you. However, I will not descend into name-calling and editing data to prove my point.

End of.


----------



## 20TIL6

mr.unnatural said:


> Nothing like a thread that turns into another pi$$ing contest over a topic that is long dead and won't ever come to pass, regardless of how much you ***** and whine about it. Give it a rest already. The topic doesn't need to be revived on a weekly basis.


If I could get FiOS, I might feel the same way. But I can't, so I like to see this topic continue to still come up.


----------



## RS4

bigpuma said:


> I must have missed when you actually posted a link to this data. I have seen you make this statement about the "real" numbers but never see a link. Perhaps you have provided it in the past but I would suggest bookmarking these surveys so you can post a link when you make these claims. That way I would know what you were talking about. Not that I don't trust you.


Once again I found the poll from Engadget engadge poll The last time I checked, over 2,500 people had responded to the poll. The clear winner by 3 to 1 over the nearest competitor was Tivo.

If you look at the dbstalk forum you will also find a couple of polls showing that responders (on a D* fanboy forum) prefer the Tivo.

Another way to look at it - how many awards has D* won for their design and/or implementation of their dvr? Clearly, the press, the customers, and others feel the Tivo is the best product out there - by a huge majority.


----------



## Jebberwocky!

according to your poll, over 65&#37; of respondents prefer not to have TIVO's.

BTW, hardly a legitimate poll - I just voted twice!


----------



## BlankMan

TonyTheTiger said:


> Really? Where?


Well, do a search on the word 'attack' and your username and it's easy to find posts where you claim to being attacked. It's also apparent from reading some of your posts that you think highly of DirecTV's DRV's, that's fine, but the purpose of this thread is to gander support for TiVo HD DRV"S and convey that desire to DirecTV. Not to antagonize other people that post in it.

Now, can you please give it a rest and stay on topic, or antagonize someplace else. This is the third time I am asking nicely.


----------



## sjberra

RS4 said:


> Once again I found the poll from Engadget engadge poll The last time I checked, over 2,500 people had responded to the poll. The clear winner by 3 to 1 over the nearest competitor was Tivo.
> 
> If you look at the dbstalk forum you will also find a couple of polls showing that responders (on a D* fanboy forum) prefer the Tivo.
> 
> Another way to look at it - how many awards has D* won for their design and/or implementation of their dvr? Clearly, the press, the customers, and others feel the Tivo is the best product out there - by a huge majority.


Don't see the HR10 listed there at all - TIVO wrote the software for the it only, is not their dvr.

Also, still waiting for a poll that can be validated, the particular one you just pointed out is not truely accurate, was able to vote for each of the units, so there is at least 1 vote that points to the fact the poll is not accurate at all, the ability to provide validated, proveable results in not there.

The reports filed to the SEC/FINRA tend to point in opposite directions then the ones that you supply.

How is Comcast?


----------



## RS4

Jebberwocky! said:


> according to your poll, over 65% of respondents prefer not to have TIVO's.
> 
> BTW, hardly a legitimate poll - I just voted twice!


Yes, you could be quite right, but using your logic 87% prefer not to have a D* dvr - again putting them significantly behind the Tivo choice.


----------



## TonyTheTiger

BlankMan said:


> Well, do a search on the word 'attack' and your username and it's easy to find posts where you claim to being attacked. It's also apparent from reading some of your posts that you think highly of DirecTV's DRV's, that's fine, but the purpose of this thread is to gander support for TiVo HD DRV"S and convey that desire to DirecTV. Not to antagonize other people that post in it.
> 
> Now, can you please give it a rest and stay on topic, or antagonize someplace else. This is the third time I am asking nicely.


Wow - just wow.

You find ONE thread from a guy trying to hack the HR10 back in January and this is your response!

..and no, I don't "think highly of DirecTV's DRV's" (sic). In fact, in this very thread I've stated that I'm having problems with an HR21 as well as stating I would much prefer to have a TiVo-based unit. More misinformation.

Oh, and in what universe is "asking nicely" calling someone a troll and accusing them of being antagonistic?

Are you SURE we haven't met before?


----------



## RS4

sjberra said:


> Don't see the HR10 listed there at all - TIVO wrote the software for the it only, is not their dvr.
> 
> Also, still waiting for a poll that can be validated, the particular one you just pointed out is not truely accurate, was able to vote for each of the units, so there is at least 1 vote that points to the fact the poll is not accurate at all, the ability to provide validated, proveable results in not there.
> 
> The reports filed to the SEC/FINRA tend to point in opposite directions then the ones that you supply.
> 
> How is Comcast?


Well, I'm not quite sure why you asked me about Comcast, but I found them to be quite surprising. I had been a broadband customer for several years but had been with D* for about 14 years. I found their service to be right on time and quite thorough. I like the fact that I am not tied to a commitment, so that I could move to another video supplier if I like another offer. I also enjoy the HD and SD channels. I found the SD channels were superior to D*. I always have around 20 -25 HD items to look at, plus all of the HD on the other Tivo HD that is only getting the OTA signals and that I can view on my main Tivo via MRV. I also enjoy the variety of items I find on the internet, so all in all I am quite happy with Comcast. However, I do look forward to the day when my Tivo finds more stuff on the internet. I think that will cause a real revolution in the video supply industry.

As far as the reports you mention, once again, they do not show how many people left D* because of Tivo nor do they show how many people joined D* because of their in-house dvr.

The polls I mentioned and the two at the dbstalk forum clearly show a preference for Tivo. You can try to claim otherwise, but until I see other numbers to the contrary, it's clear in my mind who the public feels makes the superior dvr.


----------



## CuriousMark

jimb726 said:


> You contradict yourself, a consistant interface is exactly what they are after. They want the same UI, the same platform to aid in everything from customer support to the installers. Folks can make suppositions all day long about how many additional customers DirecTv MIGHT be able to retain if they offered both platforms, but the additional expenses might far outwiegh the minimal number of additional subscribers. They are adding subscribers every quarter and it doesnt matter if its because of their DVR, or if its because of their expanded lineup or because of some other reason. They are adding customers when Dish is losing them. It makes sense that their economic model is working perfectly.


I want the interface to be consistent within my home and match the two series 2 TiVos I own right now. The DTV interface is NOT consistent with that. Perhaps you didn't understand me. If they want to keep their interface the same on all their boxes, that is fine too.

If they allow TiVo to sell me the box and support it, I don't see why it would be that big an expense to them. If they need to recover some of that cost from supporting a second platform, even tangential costs, then charge for it as was suggested a few posts back. At some point the FCC is going to force this down their throats. IF they get ahead of it, they will have more control. They will be able to let third parties in on terms they have some say-so about.

Their model is working OK now, no one is disputing that, that I can tell. Still, if they want customers like me to stay, they will need to offer what I want. I hope they do, but if not, it is no big deal. Satellite and cable are similar enough for me to consider them nearly interchangeable.


----------



## BlankMan

Thought you said here...


TonyTheTiger said:


> I'm not going to waste any more time on a discussion that includes people misquoting others and taking the parts out of a whole sequence of posts that make their point look good!


That didn't last long....



TonyTheTiger said:


> Wow - just wow.
> 
> You find ONE thread from a guy trying to hack the HR10 back in January and this is your response!


More then one actually.



TonyTheTiger said:


> ..and no, I don't "think highly of DirecTV's DRV's" (sic). In fact, in this very thread I've stated that I'm having problems with an HR21 as well as stating I would much prefer to have a TiVo-based unit.


Ok, I stand corrected, I see you've said you'd actually prefer a TiVo unit.



TonyTheTiger said:


> Oh, and in what universe is "asking nicely" calling someone a troll and accusing them of being antagonistic?
> 
> Are you SURE we haven't met before?


Never called, might have implied.

Back on topic now?


----------



## sjberra

RS4 said:


> Well, I'm not quite sure why you asked me about Comcast, but I found them to be quite surprising. I had been a broadband customer for several years but had been with D* for about 14 years. I found their service to be right on time and quite thorough. I like the fact that I am not tied to a commitment, so that I could move to another video supplier if I like another offer. I also enjoy the HD and SD channels. I found the SD channels were superior to D*. I always have around 20 -25 HD items to look at, plus all of the HD on the other Tivo HD that is only getting the OTA signals and that I can view on my main Tivo via MRV. I also enjoy the variety of items I find on the internet, so all in all I am quite happy with Comcast. However, I do look forward to the day when my Tivo finds more stuff on the internet. I think that will cause a real revolution in the video supply industry.
> 
> As far as the reports you mention, once again, they do not show how many people left D* because of Tivo nor do they show how many people joined D* because of their in-house dvr.
> 
> The polls I mentioned and the two at the dbstalk forum clearly show a preference for Tivo. You can try to claim otherwise, but until I see other numbers to the contrary, it's clear in my mind who the public feels makes the superior dvr.


Was curious how you likes the content since you switched from Directv and the HR10 to it

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=388412&highlight=comcast

"Yes, I recently switched from Direct to Comcast. I had Comcast before for my broadband, so it was very easy to get a Tivo HD and try it out for 30 days. You can't do that with the D* dvrs - as soon as they are in your house, you're stuck with them for 2 years unless you pay a hefty cancellation fee."

Bottom line - none of the polls you so aptly point out can be validated for accuracy. SEC/FINRA reports can be - look at the bottom line there. Even after losing the vaulted HR10, directv's customer retention and acquistion rate has been increasing, while their churn rate stays low If what you say is true then those numbers should be going down, bit they are not.

still find it amusing that you will point out every poll that shows the TIVO in the limelight as being accurate and fair but any poll shows different is worded with a non-Tivo bias. Unless the poll results can be validate you have no way of being sure you are accurate. As mentioned before - awards from sites - just dpeends on who pays them the most that particualr month


----------



## magnus

I really do not admire him for this. I'm sorry but his time is being wasted on this D* does not care at all. They will tell him what he wants to hear but nothing will be done.

I would admire him more for getting the FCC to do something about the issue. If they saw fit to force the cable co's to use cable card then they need to mandate that C* and E* do something similar.

It's pretty simple... his cries for Tivo on D* are going to fall on deaf ears... and he needs to complain to the FCC.



RS4 said:


> BlankMan, I admire that you have taken the time to let D* know about your feelings for Tivo, and that you have encouraged others to do likewise. I too had sent them 3 emails and called them 3 times over the past few years expressing my desire to stay with Tivo. Then I followed through with my wallet a few months ago and left D* switching to Comcast.
> 
> I think communication from customers is important, even if it doesn't turn out the way we would like, and might even encourage D* and Tivo to see if they can't come up with a product that would benefit both companies.
> 
> It's a shame that folks feel the need to criticize your efforts. One would think that someone suggesting more video opportunities for Tivo users on a Tivo forum would get some applause. Instead, we find that the D* army of fanboys has come over here explaining why your idea is so awful and why they are willing to settle for second best.


----------



## BlankMan

*shibby191* Tried the Info button on the channel, yes that works, but way slowwwww while it gets the data to display. Not a biggy, but goes again to DTV's DVR's being slow to respond to a keypress. But I guess each has its functions/operations that are slow.


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> I really do not admire him for this. I'm sorry but his time is being wasted on this D* does not care at all. They will tell him what he wants to hear but nothing will be done.


Maybe yes. Maybe no. But if one always assumes that nothing will happen and therefore uses that as an excuse not to try, then yes, nothing will happen.


----------



## magnus

Why not waste your time with someone that actually might do something about it? Why not let the FCC know of your frustration with D*?

You really need to wake up.... D* will not do anything on their own. Your best bet for a Tivo HD box with satellite capability is to work on petitioning the FCC to get it. Then it would have the added benefit of being able to use it on E* if D* ticked you off.

I'm sure that D* would much rather do this on their own than open up their system to Tivo but since they won't any other way then the FCC will have to force them.

Then ofcourse there is the issue of getting Tivo to create a box to do this and who knows if they even want to go that route or not.



BlankMan said:


> Maybe yes. Maybe no. But if one always assumes that nothing will happen and therefore uses that as an excuse not to try, then yes, nothing will happen.


----------



## 20TIL6

magnus said:


> Why not waste your time with someone that actually might do something about it? Why not let the FCC know of your frustration with D*?


Hey Magnus,

What would be the key points in a complaint to the FCC? Other than from a consumer point of view, that I just like TiVo better and would like to use TiVo with DirecTV.

I am sure you are referring to similar technology as cablecards, and how satellite is unfairly exempted. But are there other key points that the FCC would consider as valid?

I see what you are saying.

I would write the FCC, or more likely, file a complaint on their website. It works. The FCC assisted me with getting Comcast to remove copy protection flags from channels where they were clearly unwarranted. So it does work to contact the FCC in some cases.

If you summarized in bullet form why DirecTV should be forced to allow third party reception devices, I would craft a complaint and submit it to the FCC. I am sure Blankman would do the same, as well as others. Heck, maybe someone here already has a complaint on hand that we can leverage.

I don't mind targeting the FCC.


----------



## direfan

TonyTheTiger said:


> Wow - just wow.
> 
> You find ONE thread from a guy trying to hack the HR10 back in January and this is your response!
> 
> ..and no, I don't "think highly of DirecTV's DRV's" (sic). In fact, in this very thread I've stated that I'm having problems with an HR21 as well as stating I would much prefer to have a TiVo-based unit. More misinformation.
> 
> Oh, and in what universe is "asking nicely" calling someone a troll and accusing them of being antagonistic?
> 
> Are you SURE we haven't met before?


Didn't you say you were done with this thread? So why are you posting?


----------



## TonyD79

BlankMan said:


> Of the people that love their DTV DVR, I have to ask if they ever had and used a TiVo unit for more then a year?


Yes. And I have had an HD Tivo for Comcast for almost a year now.

Other than dual live buffers, I like the HR2x's better. I find the Tivo balky and slow and pretty much the same box it was five years ago (I don't really care that much about You Tube or SD Unbox when I have a computer and HD On Demand from DirecTV) while the HR2x is responsive and improving all the time.

The "deficiencies" you listed are pretty minor to me. Never liked the Tivo Guide and while it would be nice to be able to look back in time on the guide, I do or did that about once a month. Nice to see that you don't see any of the things the HR2x's do better like bookmarks, or a 90 minute buffer or Game Search (which finds a non-blacked out version of a game for you)...

BTW, give it up. It is not going to happen. All you did for DirecTV was give them data on what a vocal customer wants in his DVR. They are not going to go back to Tivo when business is booming. But finding out what items about Tivo that Tivo lovers loved? They sure as shooting are interested in that. In fact, a few months ago, that specific question was asked from DirecTV on dbstalk.


----------



## TonyD79

BlankMan said:


> Not a copyright issue at all.
> 
> From what I can gather, DLB are not there because they have something in mind for whole house DVR that precludes DLB. I am sure they are not doing this as fast as they hoped but program sharing is coming. They can share with PCs today....


----------



## Jebberwocky!

direfan said:


> Didn't you say you were done with this thread? So why are you posting?


probably because you keep quoting him


----------



## TonyD79

BlankMan said:


> This too is exactly the thing DirecTV needs to hear, because customer retention is a big item with them. And the UI and features required also.


They will not use anecdotal calls or emails from customers when they have surveys and marketing tools *and* their sales are booming and their customer retention is at an all time high.


----------



## direfan

Jebberwocky! said:


> probably because you keep quoting him


But if you are done with a thread, you are done, right? The fact that he keeps on replying means that he is not done.


----------



## Jebberwocky!

direfan said:


> But if you are done with a thread, you are done, right? The fact that he keeps on replying means that he is not done.


some people hate not getting in the last word - like me


----------



## direfan

Jebberwocky! said:


> some people hate not getting in the last word - like me


Are you serious?


----------



## 20TIL6

i win


----------



## Jebberwocky!

direfan said:


> Are you serious?


yup


----------



## direfan

Jebberwocky! said:


> yup


You win!


----------



## magnus

You can put as much lipstick as you want on a pig..... And it's still just a pig.



TonyD79 said:


> They will not use anecdotal calls or emails from customers when they have surveys and marketing tools *and* their sales are booming and their customer retention is at an all time high.


----------



## TonyD79

magnus said:


> You can put as much lipstick as you want on a pig..... And it's still just a pig.


That is your opinion. I prefer my HR2x's to my Tivo.


----------



## Jebberwocky!

TonyD79 said:


> That is your opinion. I prefer my HR2x's to my Tivo.


as do many others as well.

I would suggest going to the DTV DVR with an open mind - you may be surprised!


----------



## magnum68

BlankMan said:


> You don't think it's going to happen, you don't want see another thread, then why are you spending you're time posting to it? Seems hypocritical to me. Just go away and ignore it.
> 
> If it happens it happens, if it doesn't it doesn't. I and others care to try, you don't, so let's leave it at that.
> 
> Ahhhh.... I just noticed your moniker _Pro Troll Magnet_ I don't think you're acting like the magnet in this case though.


Give it up! Like someone posted earlier, that ship has sailed. Give it up!


----------



## Cudahy

I kept my HDtivo in January when I got a free DirectvHD. I just use the DrectvDVR for HD programs(about 50% of what I watch). I thought I would gradually get used the Directv interface but still much prefer the Tivo.
I keep checking this site to see if there's any chance of a new HDtivo. I thought when Malone took over that Tivo might offer an option where those that prefer Tivos could pay a few dollars a month more to get one. That would clearly be in the mutual interest of both sides. I'll keep checking.


----------



## magnus

Nah, there's much more to things then just the DVR. There's customer service and overpriced content. So, I'll still pass on the pig but I'm sure the OP would be thrilled if D* allowed him to watch TV his way.



Jebberwocky! said:


> as do many others as well.
> 
> I would suggest going to the DTV DVR with an open mind - you may be surprised!


----------



## Jebberwocky!

magnus said:


> Nah, there's much more to things then just the DVR. There's customer service and overpriced content. So, I'll still pass on the pig but I'm sure the OP would be thrilled if D* allowed him to watch TV his way.


I'm confused - are you for or agin TIVO?


----------



## magnus

I'm for Tivo - the pig is the HR2x.

I'm for D* opening up their system to Tivo because the OP would be given the choice to watch things their way.

I'm realistic... that D* won't do this on their own.



Jebberwocky! said:


> I'm confused - are you for or agin TIVO?


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> Why not waste your time with someone that actually might do something about it? Why not let the FCC know of your frustration with D*?
> 
> You really need to wake up.... D* will not do anything on their own. Your best bet for a Tivo HD box with satellite capability is to work on petitioning the FCC to get it. Then it would have the added benefit of being able to use it on E* if D* ticked you off.
> 
> I'm sure that D* would much rather do this on their own than open up their system to Tivo but since they won't any other way then the FCC will have to force them.
> 
> Then ofcourse there is the issue of getting Tivo to create a box to do this and who knows if they even want to go that route or not.


My time. My choice on what to do with it.

So, Arien from DirecTV Corporate Headquarters that called after I contacted Chase Carey was flat out lying?? DirectTV doesn't take Customer requests seriously? I may have to ask Arien if that is true and point him to this thread so he can see all the people that are calling him a liar.

But you make one good point, although you could use some lessons in how to communicate without belittling or attacking, and that is have the FCC force DirecTV to open their technology.


----------



## BlankMan

TonyD79 said:


> Yes. And I have had an HD Tivo for Comcast for almost a year now.
> 
> Other than dual live buffers, I like the HR2x's better. I find the Tivo balky and slow and pretty much the same box it was five years ago (I don't really care that much about You Tube or SD Unbox when I have a computer and HD On Demand from DirecTV) while the HR2x is responsive and improving all the time.
> 
> The "deficiencies" you listed are pretty minor to me. Never liked the Tivo Guide and while it would be nice to be able to look back in time on the guide, I do or did that about once a month. Nice to see that you don't see any of the things the HR2x's do better like bookmarks, or a 90 minute buffer or Game Search (which finds a non-blacked out version of a game for you)...
> 
> BTW, give it up. It is not going to happen. All you did for DirecTV was give them data on what a vocal customer wants in his DVR. They are not going to go back to Tivo when business is booming. But finding out what items about Tivo that Tivo lovers loved? They sure as shooting are interested in that. In fact, a few months ago, that specific question was asked from DirecTV on dbstalk.


I never said DTV's DVR's didn't have their strengths. The conversation was about what they are missing or don't do as well.

And yes, I like the 90 minute buffer too, but the single 90 minute buffer does not make up for only having one. I rather have two at 45 minutes.

And why is everyone telling me to give it up? If I want to do this, it's my time, let me do it. I'm doing it, I'm gonna continue to do it, and a bunch of people I don't know aren't going to convince me to stop. Does everybody understand that now?

People told me to stop bugging DirecTV to fix the Favorite Channels getting deleted problem in the Series 1 boxes because they're never going to fix it. Guess what? I got them to fix it. That's were 3.5 came from. But for reasons I'm sure you all understand I couldn't talk about it while it was happening.


----------



## BlankMan

TonyD79 said:


> Not a copyright issue at all.
> 
> From what I can gather, DLB are not there because they have something in mind for whole house DVR that precludes DLB. I am sure they are not doing this as fast as they hoped but program sharing is coming. They can share with PCs today....


Well, that's what Arien told me, Copyright, I didn't think it would be a Copyright issue, more likely a Patent issue. But that's what Arien said and I wasn't going to debate the point with him. Only the messenger here.


----------



## BlankMan

magnum68 said:


> Give it up! Like someone posted earlier, that ship has sailed. Give it up!


Here, I've got an idea. Let's have everybody give up trying to tell me to give up? Hey? How about that? I like it.


----------



## magnus

First off yes... they do not care. You really have to be gullible (sorry but it's true) to believe that they are not going to tell you what it is that you want to hear.

No, they do not take these things seriously. They simply are looking at numbers, that is all.

I'm not sure where you got that I was 'attacking' you. I was only giving you a more constructive route to try and fix your problem. And yes, you need to go directly to the FCC.



BlankMan said:


> My time. My choice on what to do with it.
> 
> So, Arien from DirecTV Corporate Headquarters that called after I contacted Chase Carey was flat out lying?? DirectTV doesn't take take Customer requests seriously? I may have to ask Arien if that is true and point him to this thread so he can see all the people that are calling him a liar.
> 
> But you make one good point, although you could use some lessons in how to communicate without belittling or attacking, and that is have the FCC force DirecTV to open their technology.


----------



## BlankMan

Cudahy said:


> I kept my HDtivo in January when I got a free DirectvHD. I just use the DrectvDVR for HD programs(about 50% of what I watch). I thought I would gradually get used the Directv interface but still much prefer the Tivo.
> I keep checking this site to see if there's any chance of a new HDtivo. I thought when Malone took over that Tivo might offer an option where those that prefer Tivos could pay a few dollars a month more to get one. That would clearly be in the mutual interest of both sides. I'll keep checking.


Yes, as soon as Murdoch left I started emailing Chase Carey that since Murdoch was gone they can dump NDS and go back to TiVo. The only reason DirecTV dumped TiVo and started using NDS boxes was because Murdoch owns NDS. Keep the money in the family.

Unfortunately, Chase Carey is a long time News Corp employee, and who knows, he might have stock in NDS too, or really think NDS boxes are better, so this may not be an easy battle. But, that's not a reason not to try.


----------



## magnus

Really? Either you really did or you are really full of yourself? You'd think that more people were involved than just you. 



BlankMan said:


> People told me to stop bugging DirecTV to fix the Favorite Channels getting deleted problem in the Series 1 boxes because they're never going to fix it. Guess what? I got them to fix it. That's were 3.5 came from. But for reasons I'm sure you all understand I couldn't talk about it while it was happening.


----------



## Jebberwocky!

magnus said:


> I'm for Tivo - the pig is the HR2x.


your opinion, others think different



> I'm for D* opening up their system to Tivo because the OP would be given the choice to watch things their way.


I agree - more choices can't hurt



> I'm realistic... that D* won't do this on their own.


You're probably right

If DTV got back into bed with TIVO I certainly would consider using it.


----------



## magnus

For many of us the ship has sailed.... you think they really care about customer service??? take a look at this thread.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=357510



BlankMan said:


> Here, I've got an idea. Let's have everybody give up trying to tell me to give up? Hey? How about that? I like it.


----------



## magnus

Yep, but probably not for a premium. So, the scenario I see would be that D* and E* would come up with a standard like cable card. And then charge an rental amount for those cards + Tivo would charge their monthly price per box. And you kinda see where this is going.

If the Directv DVR fee is only $5.99 per month for all the Directv DVRs in your household... well then the pig is not so bad.



Jebberwocky! said:


> You're probably right
> If DTV got back into bed with TIVO I certainly would consider using it.


----------



## Jebberwocky!

magnus said:


> Yep, but probably not for a premium. So, the scenario I see would be that D* and E* would come up with a standard like cable card. And then charge an rental amount for those cards + Tivo would charge their monthly price per box. And you kinda see where this is going.
> 
> If the Directv DVR fee is only $5.99 per month for all the Directv DVRs in your household... well then the pig is not so bad.


I've got 5 HR20's and two DTIVO's - no way would I be able to pay anything significanty more than I currently am paying. Everytime I price out going with TIVO/cable it just costs way too much compared with what I'm paying now. And that's not even figuring in the cost of the equipment.


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> First off yes... they do not care. You really have to be gullible (sorry but it's true) to believe that they are not going to tell you what it is that you want to hear.
> 
> No, they do not take these things seriously. They simply are looking at numbers, that is all.
> 
> I'm not sure where you got that I was 'attacking' you. I was only giving you a more constructive route to try and fix your problem. And yes, you need to go directly to the FCC.


Gullible? No. Tenacious? Yes. Just because something is hard does not mean I'm not going to try, or give up easily.

As for the attack, it's the tone of what you write _ You really need to wake up_. or _gullible_. I'm wide awake, been that way all my life. As for gullible? Not a chance. If you knew me you would then know that any of that is far from the truth. So, sorry for using the word _attack_.

I'm quite educated and quite accomplished, I don't view anything as impossible, my career exemplifies that. Because I take on and accomplish things others consider too hard to do. There's always a way, you just have to keep trying until you find it and accomplish it. That is what I do. And I'm good at it.


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> Really? Either you really did or you are really full of yourself? You'd think that more people were involved than just you.


I really did. And can back it up. But I believe the NDA prevents me from saying any more, even now.

And I'd like to do it again sometime, so I'm not going to ruin my chances by revealing information that I'm maybe not suppose to just because there are skeptics here.

And if proving it to you was of any value, which it's not, there are people within TiVo the could corroborate it.


----------



## madbeachcat

BlankMan said:


> Here, I've got an idea. Let's have everybody give up trying to tell me to give up? Hey? How about that? I like it.


Sorry it took me so long to come back and check this thread out. I'm also sorry you think I'm telling you to give up. Take whatever actions you want to take and do whatever you want to do. Maybe you'll get what you want.

But just because it's something you want, doesn't mean that I want it, or that a majority of other users want it. Maybe a majority on this board dedicated to Tivo.

I'm just stating my opinion, and I'll stick with it.


----------



## BlankMan

*magnus* Check out this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=115194&highlight=favorite+channels

I worked initially with TiVo and they were able to duplicate the problem. Then DirecTV told them to stop and also not to even acknowledge it as a problem.

If I remember correctly the 3 month Beta took a year.


----------



## BlankMan

madbeachcat said:


> Sorry it took me so long to come back and check this thread out. I'm also sorry you think I'm telling you to give up. Take whatever actions you want to take and do whatever you want to do. Maybe you'll get what you want.
> 
> But just because it's something you want, doesn't mean that I want it, or that a majority of other users want it. Maybe a majority on this board dedicated to Tivo.
> 
> I'm just stating my opinion, and I'll stick with it.


No hard feeling I hope. I just don't want to be told it's useless, give up, it'll never happen, yada yada yada.

People I don't know will not convince me to give up, just like a minority of DirecTV's customers may never convince them to offer TiVo boxes.

But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted.


----------



## 20TIL6

Magnus,

How about some bullet points to share with the FCC? I don't mind putting some time into it. I agree that the FCC would have the loudest single voice in this.

BlankMan,

Keep doing what you believe in. I too got a response from DirecTV as a result from my email. Along the lines of, "We are continuing to enhance features for our DirecTV/TiVo customers... There are no plans at this time for new DirecTV/TiVo products... I will forward your comments on to management as a point of record"

Sure maybe a form response, but I made my feelings known. There is absolutely no harm in that, even if NOTHING comes from it.


----------



## bwperez

BlankMan said:


> *bigpuma* what speed are you referring too? my HR20 is a dog waiting for it do what the button I just pressed is supposed to do.
> ...
> I'm wondering if I have a lame HR20??


I have to agree. Something in the last two weeks has made my HR20 much slower. when a show ends it takes forever to ask if it should be deleted. Then when I delete the show it takes 30-45seconds to go back to the now playing list.

I also agree with your desire for dual tuner buffers and the guild. Give me a choice and I'd pick the Tivo anyday.

Brian


----------



## BlankMan

20TIL6 said:


> BlankMan,
> 
> Keep doing what you believe in.


Thanks.


----------



## BlankMan

bwperez said:


> I have to agree. Something in the last two weeks has made my HR20 much slower. when a show ends it takes forever to ask if it should be deleted. Then when I delete the show it takes 30-45seconds to go back to the now playing list.
> 
> I also agree with your desire for dual tuner buffers and the guild. Give me a choice and I'd pick the Tivo anyday.
> 
> Brian


Interesting point you made. My HR20 was updated 7/16 and I'd have to say after that the issue really became noticeable.


----------



## magnus

Hey, that's cool that you forced D*'s hand to get things fixed... but this is an entirely different situation. That was a bug that needed to be corrected and if that did not show you about D*'s customer service, well then.

They're just simply not going to go back to Tivo and your only hope for a Tivo HD box for satellite is going to be the FCC route.



BlankMan said:


> *magnus* Check out this thread:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=115194&highlight=favorite+channels
> 
> I worked initially with TiVo and they were able to duplicate the problem. Then DirecTV told them to stop and also not to even acknowledge it as a problem.
> 
> If I remember correctly the 3 month Beta took a year.


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> Hey, that's cool that you forced D*'s hand to get things fixed... but this is an entirely different situation. That was a bug that needed to be corrected and if that did not show you about D*'s customer service, well then.
> 
> They're just simply not going to go back to Tivo and your only hope for a Tivo HD box for satellite id going to be the FCC route.


I think your idea to have the FCC make them open up the technology is a good one, but I have to think that would just take forever if at all.

Cable Card seemed like an uphill fight and it took a while, and then all the functionality wasn't there. I actually looked into it when the HD TiVo cable box came out, but between TWC and DirecTV I feel DirecTV is the lesser of two evils.

I'm all for supporting you taking the FCC path. Go for it!


----------



## bigpuma

BlankMan said:


> Yes, as soon as Murdoch left I started emailing Chase Carey that since Murdoch was gone they can dump NDS and go back to TiVo. The only reason DirecTV dumped TiVo and started using NDS boxes was because Murdoch owns NDS. Keep the money in the family.
> 
> Unfortunately, Chase Carey is a long time News Corp employee, and who knows, he might have stock in NDS too, or really think NDS boxes are better, so this may not be an easy battle. But, that's not a reason not to try.


The HR2* does not use NDS software but in house DirecTV software. I agree about the reason to going with them in the first place. Now it looks like they made the right financial decision in making their own DVR. Unfortunately there are not enough folks leaving DirecTV due to TiVo for them to re-think this decision. In fact the numbers look extremely good for DirecTV and I am sure they are quite happy with their decision. It is unfortunate for those that want more choice, but DirecTV seems determined to move toward one receiver for all customers.


----------



## sjberra

magnus said:


> Yep, but probably not for a premium. So, the scenario I see would be that D* and E* would come up with a standard like cable card. And then charge an rental amount for those cards + Tivo would charge their monthly price per box. And you kinda see where this is going.
> 
> If the Directv DVR fee is only $5.99 per month for all the Directv DVRs in your household... well then the pig is not so bad.


same as when the HR10 was the available - a DVR charge and a lease/mirror cost for every other unit.


----------



## magnus

I think you somehow misinterpreted my interest in this. I am only telling you that the only way this is going to happen is IF the FCC forces them to do it.

I could really care less if D* ever gets a Tivo HD box... that ship has sailed for me (as you should have seen from my thread link).

So, if you're looking for a champion to get with the FCC.... then you have wrong person.

I am only suggesting that the more productive approach would be to get with the FCC on the problem.



BlankMan said:


> I think your idea to have the FCC make them open up the technology is a good one, but I have to think that would just take forever if at all.
> 
> Cable Card seemed like an uphill fight and it took a while, and then all the functionality wasn't there. I actually looked into it when the HD TiVo cable box came out, but between TWC and DirecTV I feel DirecTV is the lesser of two evils.
> 
> I'm all for supporting you taking the FCC path. Go for it!


----------



## sjberra

BlankMan said:


> Yes, as soon as Murdoch left I started emailing Chase Carey that since Murdoch was gone they can dump NDS and go back to TiVo. The only reason DirecTV dumped TiVo and started using NDS boxes was because Murdoch owns NDS. Keep the money in the family.
> 
> Unfortunately, Chase Carey is a long time News Corp employee, and who knows, he might have stock in NDS too, or really think NDS boxes are better, so this may not be an easy battle. But, that's not a reason not to try.


Yo do realize that NDS has nothing to do with the HR2X series right?


----------



## magnus

I am referring to a future where D* is forced by the FCC to allow Tivo access to their system.

I am not referring to a D* sanctioned box.... because that will never happen.

So, no I do not believe that it would just be $4.99 for the next box.



sjberra said:


> same as when the HR10 was the available - a DVR charge and a lease/mirror cost for every other unit.


----------



## sjberra

magnus said:


> I am referring to a future where D* is forced by the FCC to allow Tivo access to their system.
> 
> I am not referring to a D* sanctioned box.... because that will never happen.
> 
> So, no I do not believe that it would just be $4.99 for the next box.


Suspect we will all be dead and in the grave before that happens.

At one point I have 3 HR2X, 1 HR10, 1 SD, I paid the single 5.99 DVR charge and 4 lease/mirror charges or 4.99, one of the units was included in the package price


----------



## BlankMan

sjberra said:


> Yo do realize that NDS has nothing to do with the HR2X series right?


 Interesting. Because NDS claims DirecTV is one of their DVR customers. So then who makes the HR2's?

But it really doesn't matter, as bigpuma pointed out it's DirecTV in house software and it's the software at issue.


----------



## tucsonbill

I'd have voted, but there was not option for "I couldn't care less" -- what is commonly meant by those who say "I could care less." No inflection in the written word. I might accept it with a question mark. Well, anyway my answer would be -- I'm not wed to TIVO, just like I wasn't wed to ReplayTV. However I still use them both, and will till they die. I use an HR21 for the DTV mpeg4 offerings because that's what can get them. Same way that I use an HR10-250 for OTA HD because that's what could get them at the time.
(If there had been an HD ReplayTV I would never have known TIVO.)


----------



## sjberra

BlankMan said:


> Interesting. Because NDS claims DirecTV is one of their DVR customers. So then who makes the HR2's?
> 
> But it really doesn't matter, as bigpuma pointed out it's DirecTV in house software and it's the software at issue.


The HR2X software is in house written - this has been stated both here and over in the DBSTalk forum multiple times. As to who makes the unit itself, the last 3 digits indicate the manufacturer of the physical hardware.

NDS not only does software, they also do security enabler technology - recall reading that they do the access cards for directv.


----------



## shibby191

sjberra said:


> The HR2X software is in house written - this has been stated both here and over in the DBSTalk forum multiple times. As to who makes the unit itself, the last 3 digits indicate the manufacturer of the physical hardware.
> 
> NDS not only does software, they also do security enabler technology - recall reading that they do the access cards for directv.


Correct. NDS does the access cards for DirecTV and has for over a decade.

The only DVRs with NDS code in them are the R15 (long since replaced) and the R16 (also now replaced). All current DirecTV DVRs (HR20, HR21, R22) are all in house code, NDS has nothing to do with them.


----------



## RS4

shibby191 said:


> Correct. NDS does the access cards for DirecTV and has for over a decade.
> 
> The only DVRs with NDS code in them are the R15 (long since replaced) and the R16 (also now replaced). All current DirecTV DVRs (HR20, HR21, R22) are all in house code, NDS has nothing to do with them.


That's because they were so pitiful, D* had to give them up. They had some major bugs that had been reported years before in other boxes they had built. The same bugs showed up in the R15.


----------



## jimb726

RS4 said:


> That's because they were so pitiful, D* had to give them up. They had some major bugs that had been reported years before in other boxes they had built. The same bugs showed up in the R15.


Whatever the reason, the bottom line is they are not producing any boxes for DirecTv any more.


----------



## Cudahy

It's no big deal to Directv at this point, but I've never understood why people assume they don't care about eventually losing a few hundred thousand customers because they don't offer a choice. It's not either/or, Directv would have nothing to lose and something to gain. The block may be because Tivo doesn't want to charge more than Directv for the monthly fee to cover the cost; but the alternative for Tivo is nothing.


----------



## fasTLane

Wow. All of 13* vote solidly *for* the in-house wonder of wonders. Go figure.

*as of this post


----------



## sjberra

fasTLane said:


> Wow. All of 13* vote solidly *for* the in-house wonder of wonders. Go figure.
> 
> *as of this post


Tivo based forum, primarily HR10 readers

go figure......


----------



## 20TIL6

Cudahy said:


> It's no big deal to Directv at this point, but I've never understood why people assume they don't care about eventually losing a few hundred thousand customers because they don't offer a choice. It's not either/or, Directv would have nothing to lose and something to gain. The block may be because Tivo doesn't want to charge more than Directv for the monthly fee to cover the cost; but the alternative for Tivo is nothing.


I don't think it's TiVo that would hold this back. They already have an agreement with Comcast where the cable company gets an extra $3 over the generic DVR fee when the customer chooses TiVo.


----------



## magnum68

BlankMan said:


> Here, I've got an idea. Let's have everybody give up trying to tell me to give up? Hey? How about that? I like it.


Don't you have a life or a BlankWoman to focus on?  That ship has sailed.


----------



## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> Tivo based forum, primarily HR10 readers
> 
> go figure......


My impression is just the opposite. If anything, both DirecTV/TiVo forums here at TiVo Community have become fortified outposts of the DirecTV DVR assault army that is headquartered over at dbstalk.

Sorry, just finished a few rounds of Call of Duty 4.

But my impression stands. It has become more DirecTV and less TiVo over here for quite awhile. Ever since Earl started 'messin' with DirecTV DVRs way back when.


----------



## fasTLane

sjberra said:


> Tivo based forum, primarily HR10 readers


LOL


----------



## 20TIL6

fasTLane said:


> LOL


I guess I am not alone.


----------



## shibby191

20TIL6 said:


> My impression is just the opposite. If anything, both DirecTV/TiVo forums here at TiVo Community have become fortified outposts of the DirecTV DVR assault army that is headquartered over at dbstalk.
> 
> Sorry, just finished a few rounds of Call of Duty 4.
> 
> But my impression stands. It has become more DirecTV and less TiVo over here for quite awhile. Ever since Earl started 'messin' with DirecTV DVRs way back when.


Actually there aren't many people that hang out here at all anymore. I see maybe half a dozen to a dozen of your "assault army" still here. Methinks you think people care more then they do. Only reason I'm even here lately is because I'm bored. I don't post much at all anymore, why, just doesn't matter anymore.


----------



## fasTLane

Now that we've cleared that up


----------



## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> My impression is just the opposite. If anything, both DirecTV/TiVo forums here at TiVo Community have become fortified outposts of the DirecTV DVR assault army that is headquartered over at dbstalk.
> 
> Sorry, just finished a few rounds of Call of Duty 4.
> 
> But my impression stands. It has become more DirecTV and less TiVo over here for quite awhile. Ever since Earl started 'messin' with DirecTV DVRs way back when.


Disagree- only reason i read this forum is becuase I have Directivo based units in service still and I am bored.

Interesting though the total number of responses to the poll though....


----------



## RS4

sjberra said:


> Disagree- only reason i read this forum is becuase I have Directivo based units in service still and I am bored.
> 
> Interesting though the total number of responses to the poll though....


Some of us feel that you and Shibby might be Generals in the D* army


----------



## Cudahy

Thanks, 20TIL6, that makes it pretty clear that it's totally up to Directv. I've never seen any reason why Directv doesn't care about losing those extra Tivo fans. Whether it's 100,000 or 300,000 it's still in their financial interest to offer a choice. Arguments that Directv just doesn't care about the lost customers makes no sense at all.


----------



## TonyD79

Cudahy said:


> Thanks, 20TIL6, that makes it pretty clear that it's totally up to Directv. I've never seen any reason why Directv doesn't care about losing those extra Tivo fans. Whether it's 100,000 or 300,000 it's still in their financial interest to offer a choice. Arguments that Directv just doesn't care about the lost customers makes no sense at all.


Because the cost of supporting that extra system (including phone calls to CSRs) is not worth what it would take to retain them. There is a point called return on investement. And a few bucks a month does not support the infrastructure.

Whatever numbers there are, they are noise as DirecTV continues to GROW in subscribers.


----------



## sjberra

RS4 said:


> Some of us feel that you and Shibby might be Generals in the D* army


when I was in the army I actually worked, so was not an officer.

Still using Directv Tivo based units what about you?


----------



## 20TIL6

TonyD79 said:


> Because the cost of supporting that extra system (including phone calls to CSRs) is not worth what it would take to retain them. There is a point called return on investement. And a few bucks a month does not support the infrastructure.


That purely depends upon how many existing (SD and HD DTV/TiVo), returning, and new customers would agree to a slight premium monthly service fee to get an MPEG4 HD DTV/TiVo.

If it was just 100k customers, and the upcharge was $3, and half of that went to TiVo, DTV would end up with $150K/month or $1.8million/year. That's not enough to support 100k customers? Even given the question, what would support entail? What would be TiVo's responsibility and what would be DTV's?

Right now, DTV is "supporting" probably around 2 million SD DTV/TiVo customers. I know that number used to be around 2.8 million, and I know it is dropping. But is it below 2 million customers?

I think it's likely they would get the HR10-250 holdouts (and that's not a huge number), but even if they got half of the remaining SD DTV/TiVo folks to upgrade and pay an extra $3 to have an MPEG4 HD DTV/TiVo, that could be close to a million customers. Using the same example math, with TiVo getting a cut, that's $1.5million/month or $18million/year going to DTV for funding "TiVo support" infrastructure.

So in my opinion, the math would support it. You could still argue that the customers wouldn't pay the extra $3 for an HD TiVo over an HR21. Since the poll went up, a consistent 60%+ of the votes are wanting a new DTV/TiVo. Doesn't mean that they would all pay an extra fee. And besides, we are all just fanboys, lemmings, trolls, or just plain bored. DTV certainly would not care about the traffic, questions, and commentary here.


----------



## magnus

My sister would be one of them. She has all Directv Tivos. She won't leave Directv until they no longer have Tivo as an option. 

I think that she would be willing to pay $3 increase to her DVR fee (account) but I'm not so sure that she would be willing to pay $3 per box. I think at $3 per box she might jump ship too.


----------



## BlankMan

magnum68 said:


> Don't you have a life or a BlankWoman to focus on?  That ship has sailed.


I don't usually repeat myself but I'll do it for you since you didn't seem to understand what I said the first time I said it;

_Here, I've got an idea. Let's have everybody give up trying to tell me to give up? Hey? How about that? I like it._


----------



## BlankMan

I'd gladly pay the $3. I still have two T60's subscribed and a HR10-250.

Each T60 is at 230 hours and I've got my HR-250 at 96 hours HD 637 hours SD, the HR20 has a mere 50 hours HD and 200 hours SD. I don't know that I can upgrade it like I can the TiVo units and to me that is a feature I like.

Oo-oh, one T60 just went B&W.

Whew! Loose S-Video cable.


----------



## TonyD79

20TIL6 said:


> If it was just 100k customers, and the upcharge was $3, and half of that went to TiVo, DTV would end up with $150K/month or $1.8million/year. That's not enough to support 100k customers? Even given the question, what would support entail? What would be TiVo's responsibility and what would be DTV's?


It probably is not. Or they would do it. You really think they are trying to lose money?

I am willing to bet it would cost more than $1.50 a customer per month to just handle the phone calls when a problem happens. Not to mention stocking, repair, documentation, web updates.

Oh, and it costs a good 13 bucks or so a month for cable customers to have a Tivo and a few bucks a month for a cable card. Gee, where did that 5 dollar number come from? Wonder why it is about one fourth what it costs in the real world? (Pondering about Tivo "fanboys" fantasizing rather than being realistic). And even with Tivo out there for cable, the vast majority still get the crappy (and I mean truly crappy) cable boxes.

Multiplying things out makes it all sound so wonderful and such a big number but you are still talking about how much money it costs per unit. You have to turn a profit (or at least not have a loss) on a per unit basis to make money. Big numbers of income mean nothing if big numbers are on the other side of the ledger.

Nice trick of math, though. Never mind that you even pulled the subscriber number out of your nether regions. There is no evidence for that number.


----------



## magnus

I guess reality is just not one of your stronger points. You can spend all the time you want on this and it's still not going to change a thing. D* is not going to bring back Tivo.... just consider yourself lucky that they still have Tivo for you. With D* it's not what the customers want but what works best with their bottom line.

Again, for anyone at D* to tell you differently.... they are just telling you what you want to hear.



BlankMan said:


> I don't usually repeat myself but I'll do it for you since you didn't seem to understand what I said the first time I said it;
> 
> _Here, I've got an idea. Let's have everybody give up trying to tell me to give up? Hey? How about that? I like it._


----------



## BlankMan

*TonyD79, 20TIL6* charge the $3 and give it all to TiVo and let them support the TiVo based DVR's like they did in the beginning. The support when it was from TiVo was orders of magnitude better and TiVo was more open with what was going on.

When was the last time you saw TiVoPony announce that new software was being pushed out for the TiVo based DVR's? Not for a long, long time. My bet is DirecTV told TiVo not to do that anymore.


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> I guess reality is just not one of your stronger points. You can spend all the time you want on this and it's still not going to change a thing. D* is not going to bring back Tivo.... just consider yourself lucky that they still have Tivo for you. With D* it's not what the customers want but what works best with their bottom line.
> 
> Again, for anyone at D* to tell you differently.... they are just telling you what you want to hear.


Right. I live in my own world where the sky is yellow and the word reality is not in my vocabulary. 

You think this will never work. Fine. But why do you insist and feel the need to repeatedly tell me that? I understand, you think it is useless. Fine. Leave it at that and move on.

It's your opinion, just like I have mine, you know my opinion, I know your's, there is no value to continually repeat it along with your digs.


----------



## shibby191

BlankMan said:


> *TonyD79, 20TIL6* charge the $3 and give it all to TiVo and let them support the TiVo based DVR's like they did in the beginning. The support when it was from TiVo was orders of magnitude better and TiVo was more open with what was going on.


The problem is that it didn't work and still won't work. So who does a customer call if they have a problem with a DirecTivo? Well of course they call DirecTV. They wait on hold 10+ minutes. They get a CSR who spends 10-20 minutes troubleshooting whatever problem they have. Oooops, looks like a Tivo problem, you'll need to call Tivo (or if you're really lucky get transferred). Then wait on hold 10+ minutes with Tivo. Then spend X number of minutes on the phone and maybe Tivo can fix it. Oh wait, looks like the problem lies with your authorization card, let's transfer you back to DirecTV.

And so it goes.

Same thing if you were to call Tivo first. Odds are the problem may not lie with the Tivo software and then you get transferred around or told "sorry, we can't help you". Happened before.

It's a support nightmare. And a HUGE waste of money. That's why DirecTV had to take all the support for the Tivo's in house, to better the customer service aspect of it alone. And of course that costs millions in training, reps, etc.

It's all pretty obvious why DirecTV went their own way just on this one issue alone, support. Let alone all the other issues plus any backroom politics that went on.


----------



## magnus

I'm sorry that you can't see the futility of what you are trying to accomplish. D* simply does not give a rats a** about what you want. I don't know if I can make it any clearer than that. IF you expect anything at all to be done then your best bet IS the FCC.

I still don't get where you think I am digging or attacking you. I am only stating my opinion. Also, you might just want to let it go when others tell you that it can't be done. You seem to need to get the last word on the subject.



BlankMan said:


> Right. I live in my own world where the sky is yellow and the word reality is not in my vocabulary.
> 
> You think this will never work. Fine. But why do you insist and feel the need to repeatedly tell me that? I understand, you think it is useless. Fine. Leave it at that and move on.
> 
> It's your opinion, just like I have mine, you know my opinion, I know your's, there is no value to continually repeat it along with your digs.





> I don't usually repeat myself but I'll do it for you since you didn't seem to understand what I said the first time I said it;


----------



## magnum68

BlankMan said:


> I don't usually repeat myself but I'll do it for you since you didn't seem to understand what I said the first time I said it;
> 
> _Here, I've got an idea. Let's have everybody give up trying to tell me to give up? Hey? How about that? I like it._


You remind me of the little engine that thought it could.  Give it up!


----------



## 20TIL6

TonyD79 said:


> Nice trick of math, though. Never mind that you even pulled the subscriber number out of your nether regions. There is no evidence for that number.


Tony, get to know my nether regions. I am sure I can dig up more references.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-04/tivo-and-directv-extend-pact/

We are pleased to have reached an agreement with DIRECTV that will allow us to continue to provide our service to the more than 2 million DIRECTV TiVo households, said TiVo CEO Tom Rogers.

So yeah, that's from two years ago. And that number has dropped. If I reviewed the quarterly filings from TiVo since then, I could probably determine the reduction. TiVo reports the lost DTV subscribers each quarter.

So even if I lopped off a million, that would be a conservative estimation, and my "math trick" still works.


----------



## 20TIL6

Behold... I say unto thee, I am the Thread Killer!!!!


----------



## 20TIL6

More recent news from my nether region: 

http://www.zacks.com/stock/news/14277/TiVo+Paused+in+Near-Term+Growth

"Despite superior functionality, TiVos market share has shrunk since. Aggravating the share loss, DIRECTV (DTV), which accounts for 2.8 million or nearly two-thirds of TiVos subscriber base, began to offer a second competing HD DVR last year."


----------



## RS4

shibby191 said:


> The problem is that it didn't work and still won't work. So who does a customer call if they have a problem with a DirecTivo? Well of course they call DirecTV. They wait on hold 10+ minutes. They get a CSR who spends 10-20 minutes troubleshooting whatever problem they have. Oooops, looks like a Tivo problem, you'll need to call Tivo (or if you're really lucky get transferred). Then wait on hold 10+ minutes with Tivo. Then spend X number of minutes on the phone and maybe Tivo can fix it. Oh wait, looks like the problem lies with your authorization card, let's transfer you back to DirecTV.
> 
> And so it goes.
> 
> Same thing if you were to call Tivo first. Odds are the problem may not lie with the Tivo software and then you get transferred around or told "sorry, we can't help you". Happened before.
> 
> It's a support nightmare. And a HUGE waste of money. That's why DirecTV had to take all the support for the Tivo's in house, to better the customer service aspect of it alone. And of course that costs millions in training, reps, etc.
> 
> It's all pretty obvious why DirecTV went their own way just on this one issue alone, support. Let alone all the other issues plus any backroom politics that went on.


Your speculation fails to mention that Tivo currently has a large number of standalone clients. Those clients are already used to dealing with 2 or more companies.

Again, we don't the specifics of cost, but it is safe to assume that if Tivo can make a box that hooks in to a cable system, it could make a box that hooks into the satellite systems and revenue share.

We all know why Dish doesn't allow Tivos, but what puzzles me is what would D* lose by giving Tivo access to the technology? They don't need to give up their box, or even brand a Tivo box. But they would win over the hearts and minds of more consumers, just by offering the service. Plus, they would get additional subscriptions.

And the only thing obvious about D* going their own way is that it didn't happen until after Murdoch got there. In the end, I'm guessing that it has cost D* a ton more than they ever anticipated because of the dog dvr's that they got from NDS. Plus, they had to re-upt their contract with Tivo, so they wouldn't get sued, so I'm betting they lost gobs.


----------



## MikeekiM

<austin powers>I want a toilet made out of gold!</austin powers>


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> I'm sorry that you can't see the futility of what you are trying to accomplish. D* simply does not give a rats a** about what you want. I don't know if I can make it any clearer than that. IF you expect anything at all to be done then your best bet IS the FCC.
> 
> I still don't get where you think I am digging or attacking you. I am only stating my opinion. Also, you might just want to let it go when others tell you that it can't be done. You seem to need to get the last word on the subject.


Let's see...


magnus said:


> You really need to wake up.... .





magnus said:


> You really have to be gullible





magnus said:


> you really did or you are really full of yourself?





magnus said:


> I guess reality is just not one of your stronger points.


These type of comments detract from any point you try to make and are not a tool that should be employed when attempting to persuade someone to your way of thinking. I've never encountered these type of statements in any dealing with people training/working with people training.


----------



## BlankMan

An interesting thought crossed my mind. I can now schedule programs to record on my HR10-250 remotely from the internet including my Blackberry.

I find it hard to believe that DirecTV would expend the resources to do this on a box whose life is termed to be short lived. What could be in the mix? Is it they're rolling it out as a precursor, testing, for something possibly on the horizon?

Ok, start the flack.


----------



## shibby191

BlankMan said:


> An interesting thought crossed my mind. I can now schedule programs to record on my HR10-250 remotely from the internet including my Blackberry.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that DirecTV would expend the resources to do this on a box whose life is termed to be short lived. What could be in the mix? Is it they're rolling it out as a precursor, testing, for something possibly on the horizon?
> 
> Ok, start the flack.


Nope, simply part of the software upgrade that rolled out what, 6 months or so ago now? Remember, SD DirecTivo's still have a couple million active and there is no reason to get rid of them. Tivo and DirecTV have a contract for continued updates thru 2010 and I'm sure it will be renewed again. Basically the Tivo's needed an update so they didn't choke on the new guide data stream needed to allow "channels I receive" to work on the DirecTV DVR+ series and Tivo tossed in a few new features. Even the Ultimate TV DVRs from years ago got a software update for that. Remote Scheduling has been on the HR20/21 since the beginning of the year but they got it going on the DirecTivo's a couple months ago.

There are a few big threads on DBSTalk with all the details. DBSTalk is not only just the HR20 forum it's pretty much *the* DirecTV forum in general now on the Internet.


----------



## TyroneShoes

RS4 said:


> ...We all know why Dish doesn't allow Tivos, but what puzzles me is what would D* lose by giving Tivo access to the technology?...


You are right (did I just say that?), D* would lose nothing by allowing Tivo to make DVRs that could work with the DTV system. I would even venture to guess that they put that on the table. The problem is that Tivo doesn't consider itself a hardware company, the hardware is just the vehicle to allow a monthly fee for the "Tivo service". Tivo was getting a part of the monthly pie from DTV, which is probably why they are now not in the DTV business anymore. DTV dumped them to keep the money in the family, so that is a major sticking point--Tivo wants part of that pie and DTV is adamant about them not getting any of it. So, things ended in divorce.

But DISH? They could have solved a lot of their issues with Tivo by simply making nice and embracing the DISHTivo concept. Those are partners that were made for each other, and Tivo would have had a new DBS pipeline if DISH had just realized that if you can't lick 'em, then join 'em. It would have been win-win. My best guess is there is a lot of pride and spite and just plain stubborness that probably squelched that possibility, even though it actually made a lot of sense, and not doing it probably cost DISH a lot more and cost Tivo an important customer in DISH. You probably can relate to that .


----------



## magnus

Only speaking the truth.... I'm sorry that words can pierce you so much. You must have very thin skin.

And as I said.... you can't let it go... just gotta have the last word. Why point all of this out?? It's because you just have to be right. It does not matter if dollars and sense dictate otherwise. YOU have to be right and that's just all there is to it.

As you more or less stated.... 'I alone without any help from anyone... made D* recognize a problem and fix it'. If that is not someone being full of themselves then I just don't know what the heck is. 



BlankMan said:


> Let's see...
> 
> These type of comments detract from any point you try to make and are not a tool that should be employed when attempting to persuade someone to your way of thinking. I've never encountered these type of statements in any dealing with people training/working with people training.


----------



## BlankMan

shibby191 said:


> Nope, simply part of the software upgrade that rolled out what, 6 months or so ago now?


Yeah butt, why do that now? Why not have done it when people were asking for the features the Series 2's had, like recording on one box, viewing on another, etc. Now? On a box that's nearing the end of it's life? DirecTV getting soft all of a sudden and wants to be nice for a change?? I don't buy it.


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> Only speaking the truth.... I'm sorry that words can pierce you so much. You must have very thin skin.
> 
> And as I said.... you can't let it go... just gotta have the last word. Why point all of this out?? It's because you just have to be right. It does not matter if dollars and sense dictate otherwise. YOU have to be right and that's just all there is to it.


Nope. It's because you asked where.



magnus said:


> I still don't get where you think I am digging or attacking you.





magnus said:


> As you more or less stated.... 'I alone without any help from anyone... made D* recognize a problem and fix it'. If that is not someone being full of themselves then I just don't know what the heck is.


Never said alone. Show me where I used the word alone. You can't. I was just leading the bandwagon.


----------



## magnus

That was discussed a long time ago.



BlankMan said:


> Yeah butt, why do that now? Why not have done it when people were asking for the features the Series 2's had, like recording on one box, viewing on another, etc. Now? On a box that's nearing the end of it's life? DirecTV getting soft all of a sudden and wants to be nice for a change?? I don't buy it.


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> That was discussed a long time ago.


So it can't ever be discussed again.

Sorry. I missed that in the Forum rules.


----------



## magnus

I wonder



BlankMan said:


> Nope. It's because you asked where.
> 
> Never said alone. Show me where I used the word alone. You can't. I was just leading the bandwagon.





Blankman said:


> People told me to stop bugging DirecTV to fix the Favorite Channels getting deleted problem in the Series 1 boxes because they're never going to fix it. Guess what? *I got them to fix it*. That's were 3.5 came from. But for reasons I'm sure you all understand I couldn't talk about it while it was happening.


----------



## magnus

There's just no point to doing it again. Just read that post. 



BlankMan said:


> So it can't ever be discussed again.
> 
> Sorry. I missed that in the Forum rules.


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> I wonder


Still don't see the word alone. And if you read that thread regarding the bug you would understand a lot of people were involved.

When you going to contribute to the topic of this thread and stop focusing on me?


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> There's just no point to doing it again. Just read that post.


That's your opinion, not mine.

If the world took that approach, never readdress something that's already been done we'd probably not have as much innovation as we do.


----------



## magnus

When are you going to realize that this is NOT something that D* is going to do willingly????



BlankMan said:


> Still don't see the word alone. And if you read that thread regarding the bug you would understand a lot of people were involved.
> 
> When you going to contribute to the topic of this thread and stop focusing on me?


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> When are you going to realize that this is NOT something that D* is going to do willingly????


I'm not. When you going to realize that?


----------



## magnus

Yes, if it's rehashed... then we can fix anything.



BlankMan said:


> That's your opinion, not mine.
> 
> If the world took that approach, never readdress something that's already been done we'd probably not have as much innovation as we do.


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> Yes, if it's rehashed... then we can fix anything.


Now that's, a good attitude to have.


----------



## magnus

Yes, it kind of reminds me of a conversation with a brick wall.

Last word, PM me when *YOU* have fixed this un-fixable issue with D*.



BlankMan said:


> I'm not. When you going to realize that?


----------



## BlankMan

This thought crossed my mind. With DirecTV having Customer Retention high on their business goals list, I have to wonder if the Comcast/TiVo liaison and losing customers to Comcast might weigh in to their relationship with TiVo.

More parings like this with TiVo could cause DirecTV to rethink.


----------



## sjberra

BlankMan said:


> This thought crossed my mind. With DirecTV having Customer Retention high on their business goals list, I have to wonder if the Comcast/TiVo liaison and losing customers to Comcast might weigh in to their relationship with TiVo.
> 
> More parings like this with TiVo could cause DirecTV to rethink.


But their churn rate is aleady very low, and new customer acquisition rate is high - so this would not do very much, of anything at all. On the grand scale of things their total number of HD Tivo users is probably fairly low when compared to the total number of HD based DVR's they have on the street.


----------



## sjberra

TyroneShoes said:


> You are right (did I just say that?), D* would lose nothing by allowing Tivo to make DVRs that could work with the DTV system. I would even venture to guess that they put that on the table. The problem is that Tivo doesn't consider itself a hardware company, the hardware is just the vehicle to allow a monthly fee for the "Tivo service". Tivo was getting a part of the monthly pie from DTV, which is probably why they are now not in the DTV business anymore. DTV dumped them to keep the money in the family, so that is a major sticking point--Tivo wants part of that pie and DTV is adamant about them not getting any of it. So, things ended in divorce.
> 
> But DISH? They could have solved a lot of their issues with Tivo by simply making nice and embracing the DISHTivo concept. Those are partners that were made for each other, and Tivo would have had a new DBS pipeline if DISH had just realized that if you can't lick 'em, then join 'em. It would have been win-win. My best guess is there is a lot of pride and spite and just plain stubborness that probably squelched that possibility, even though it actually made a lot of sense, and not doing it probably cost DISH a lot more and cost Tivo an important customer in DISH. You probably can relate to that .


intersting point - the dish commercials that are airing in my locality state that they have a DVR that is a lot better then what TIVO has to offer.


----------



## sjberra

BlankMan said:


> Nope. It's because you asked where.
> 
> Never said alone. Show me where I used the word alone. You can't. I was just leading the bandwagon.


Technically you never posted the word alone in the statement, but it sure reads that way



BlankMan said:


> People told me to stop bugging DirecTV to fix the Favorite Channels getting deleted problem in the Series 1 boxes because they're never going to fix it. Guess what? I got them to fix it. That's were 3.5 came from. But for reasons I'm sure you all understand I couldn't talk about it while it was happening.


gray area there, just like the polls that are run on non-validated sites


----------



## shibby191

BlankMan said:


> Yeah butt, why do that now? Why not have done it when people were asking for the features the Series 2's had, like recording on one box, viewing on another, etc. Now? On a box that's nearing the end of it's life? DirecTV getting soft all of a sudden and wants to be nice for a change?? I don't buy it.


The theory here is that DirecTV needed Tivo to make that update to the DVRs no matter what so they didn't bomb on the new guide data stream. Tivo then said "well, we'll do it only if you let us put in a couple new features". DirecTV then said "whatever, just fix it so it can handle the new guide data stream". It's not like it cost DirecTV all that much to include a couple new features, Tivo just drops in code they already have on the stand alones and viola, new features.

And it wasn't targeted to the HR10-250's, there was even some talk that the HR10's wouldn't even get the update and only the SD units would. But the HR10s, all 50K or less that are left, got the update too.

There have been some pretty long threads about this both here and DBSTalk if you want more nitty gritty.


----------



## bigpuma

BlankMan said:


> This thought crossed my mind. With DirecTV having Customer Retention high on their business goals list, I have to wonder if the Comcast/TiVo liaison and losing customers to Comcast might weigh in to their relationship with TiVo.
> 
> More parings like this with TiVo could cause DirecTV to rethink.


Unfortunately the Comcast TiVo box has been a major disaster so far. I remember the original estimated release date was August 2006. 2 years later and you still can't get it in most of the country. I think the ship has sailed on folks leaving D* for TiVo. Their churn is at an all time low and they are still growing quite well.


----------



## magnum68

Hey BlankMan get a LIFE


----------



## BlankMan

sjberra said:


> Technically you never posted the word alone in the statement, but it sure reads that way


Wasn't meant too. The point I was trying to make was that I never gave up. It took around a year to get DirecTV to acknowledge that the problem existed, then another year or more to actually get it fixed. Would it have gotten fixed if they weren't getting pressure from their customers to fix it? I kind of doubt it. If people are living with it and not complaining about it, why fix it?



sjberra said:


> gray area there, just like the polls that are run on non-validated sites


Well, people can think what they want. I still have all the email back and forth between me and DirecTV when I was bird dogging their management monthly to address the problem. Likewise, I still have all the email back and forth between me and TiVo addressing the issue. And I'm not referring to email to their support people, I'm referring to email to individuals within the company that were actually in a position to do something about it.

Believe it or not, their are people within both companies that would really like to do something about whatever but their hands become tied by their management politics.

And actually I sent an email to Chase Carey again yesterday, 15 minutes later I received a reply from him, and not one of his assistants. It was short and concise, but none the less shows that they do pay attention to what customers are telling them.


----------



## BlankMan

magnum68 said:


> Hey BlankMan get a LIFE


Please stick to the topic of the thread.


----------



## BlankMan

shibby191 said:


> The theory here is that DirecTV needed Tivo to make that update to the DVRs no matter what so they didn't bomb on the new guide data stream. Tivo then said "well, we'll do it only if you let us put in a couple new features". DirecTV then said "whatever, just fix it so it can handle the new guide data stream". It's not like it cost DirecTV all that much to include a couple new features, Tivo just drops in code they already have on the stand alones and viola, new features.


That makes a lot of sense and if in fact that is what happened, Kudo's to TiVo for giving us those features.


----------



## BlankMan

bigpuma said:


> Unfortunately the Comcast TiVo box has been a major disaster so far.


I'm curious as to what the issues were/are? (Besides being late.) I almost bought one of TiVo's HD cable boxes when they came out and would have dropped DirecTV and switched to TWC, but I didn't, only because of my distaste for TWC, being a former customer.


----------



## magnum68

BlankMan said:


> Please stick to the topic of the thread.


Please get a life.


----------



## shibby191

BlankMan said:


> I'm curious as to what the issues were/are? (Besides being late.) I almost bought one of TiVo's HD cable boxes


He's referring to the Comcast Tivo combo box (like the DirecTivo combo box), not the Tivo HD which is a stand alone Tivo product. One just needs to look at the Comcast Tivo forum here and at other forums to see the big problems it has had.


----------



## BlankMan

shibby191 said:


> He's referring to the Comcast Tivo combo box .


That's what I was asking about, sorry I didn't make that clear. My comment about the TiVo cable box & TWC was anecdotal.


----------



## sjberra

BlankMan said:


> Wasn't meant too. The point I was trying to make was that I never gave up. It took around a year to get DirecTV to acknowledge that the problem existed, then another year or more to actually get it fixed. Would it have gotten fixed if they weren't getting pressure from their customers to fix it? I kind of doubt it. If people are living with it and not complaining about it, why fix it?
> 
> Well, people can think what they want. I still have all the email back and forth between me and DirecTV when I was bird dogging their management monthly to address the problem. Likewise, I still have all the email back and forth between me and TiVo addressing the issue. And I'm not referring to email to their support people, I'm referring to email to individuals within the company that were actually in a position to do something about it.
> 
> Believe it or not, their are people within both companies that would really like to do something about whatever but their hands become tied by their management politics.
> 
> And actually I sent an email to Chase Carey again yesterday, 15 minutes later I received a reply from him, and not one of his assistants. It was short and concise, but none the less shows that they do pay attention to what customers are telling them.


we send those ot to people that write our president where I work also - it is generated by a fairly complex AI bot. pointed out the post because of the way it was written.

Doesn;t really matter to me, it is probably a dead horse, since personally I suspect one of the reasons they moved away from the TIVO based boxes is becasue of the simplicity of hacking the base installation. There are plenty of documented hacks for the TIVO based boxes, given the current trend of the with copy protection and the such, Directv is probably shying away from anything that can be easily hacked.

Personally would I go back to a tivo based box? Not for a billion dollars. Do I still haver Tivo based directv boxes on my account, yes I do, will keep them running until they die. I personally detest the UI that is on the Directv Tivo boxes, it reminds me of a badly implemented Windows 3.0 GUI


----------



## BlankMan

sjberra said:


> we send those ot to people that write our president where I work also - it is generated by a fairly complex AI bot. pointed out the post because of the way it was written.


Nope, no way. If that were the case then all of my emails to him would be receiving a response, and they don't. 


sjberra said:


> I personally detest the UI that is on the Directv Tivo boxes, it reminds me of a badly implemented Windows 3.0 GUI


 And I detest the DirecTV UI and Guide. The biggest problem I have is when in the Menus doing configs or what ever and I want to move one menu back, I press the left arrow, nothing happens immediately so thinking it missed it I press it again but it caught both it was just slow so now I'm two menus back, not one, sometimes completely out of the thing and back to watching TV! The delay from key press to action start is more then it should be. This happens in the menus, this happens when pressing the fast-forward/reverse, it's more then it should be, it's more then the TiVo UI. At least on my boxes. I might just time it with a stopwatch to see.


----------



## magnus

Wow, just wow. I would have to say the same of the D* box. And raise you, not for a billion would I go back to D*. Their CS sucks, the commitments given are a joke, and the customer agreement is one-sided.

If you can deal with all that then it's not that bad a DVR... if you've never seen a Tivo in action.



sjberra said:


> Personally would I go back to a tivo based box? Not for a billion dollars. Do I still haver Tivo based directv boxes on my account, yes I do, will keep them running until they die. I personally detest the UI that is on the Directv Tivo boxes, it reminds me of a badly implemented Windows 3.0 GUI


----------



## sjberra

magnus said:


> Wow, just wow. I would have to say the same of the D* box. And raise you, not for a billion would I go back to D*. Their CS sucks, the commitments given are a joke, and the customer agreement is one-sided.
> 
> If you can deal with all that then it's not that bad a DVR... if you've never seen a Tivo in action.


Guess not, I have only owned 3 HR10-250's, still have 1 in service and 2 SD Tivo based units in service - so I guess you don't consider them TIVO based units? If not what exactly are they? If they are not TIVO boxes then you are right I have never seen a TIVO in action, but since this disagreement is about the HR10 and and it's TIVo software, I suspect you just might be wrong on that statement.

Commitments? Means nothing to me - do not plan on leaving Directv, have had it since they had the DSS logo, in my area it is the only decent game in town. If you feel that way - then don't agree to any contracts, since they are commitments.

Never had an issue with CS, every time I have called them my problems where resolved in a reasonable amount of time, but then YMMV on that. Have had 0 issues with the techs that have come out to my house and to the place where I work - since we have 4 commercial accounts active with Directv there that have a total of 74 recievers active across all the accounts (you can only have 20 recievers on a single commercial account) and getting ready to add 12 more.

Not quite sure what you mean by "customer agreement is one-sided" - what exactly is that?

Also "And raise you, not for a billion would I go back to D*. " does this mean you are not currently a customer of Directv?

Curious - what does anything you mention have to do with the quality of the DVR? You mention

1. The fact that in your opion their CS sucks
2. The fact that in your opinion commitments are a joke
3. The fact that in your opinion customer agreement is one sided 
4. The fact that in your opinion that I have never seen a TIVO in action - which I thought a HR10-250 is a TIVO based box

Maybe I am missing it, but see nothing to reference the quality of a DVR or the pros and cons of one dvr software interface over another


----------



## sjberra

BlankMan said:


> Nope, no way. If that were the case then all of my emails to him would be receiving a response, and they don't.
> 
> And I detest the DirecTV UI and Guide. The biggest problem I have is when in the Menus doing configs or what ever and I want to move one menu back, I press the left arrow, nothing happens immediately so thinking it missed it I press it again but it caught both it was just slow so now I'm two menus back, not one, sometimes completely out of the thing and back to watching TV! The delay from key press to action start is more then it should be. This happens in the menus, this happens when pressing the fast-forward/reverse, it's more then it should be, it's more then the TiVo UI. At least on my boxes. I might just time it with a stopwatch to see.


Have not expierienced the lag on the menus - you using IR or RF? what Directv remote model are you using? Guide does not both me, it does what I need, to check what is playing and when. If I want to locate a show to record, I use the search function, lot more convient to me.

the auto response AI's can be configured to look for certain catch phrases and words, if they do not exist, no response is sent.


----------



## BlankMan

sjberra said:


> Have not expierienced the lag on the menus - you using IR or RF? what Directv remote model are you using? Guide does not both me, it does what I need, to check what is playing and when. If I want to locate a show to record, I use the search function, lot more convient to me.


IR, both the remote that came with it and a MX-850, response is the same with both.



sjberra said:


> the auto response AI's can be configured to look for certain catch phrases and words, if they do not exist, no response is sent.


And I suppose the email I got from E. Stephen Mack yesterday was bot generated too... It's amazing to me how people seem to need to discredit things, I fail to understand why. Their are people that work at companies that really do care and will take the time on occasion to personally answer emails. But people here are always such skeptics.


----------



## sjberra

BlankMan said:


> IR, both the remote that came with it and a MX-850, response is the same with both.
> 
> And I suppose the email I got from E. Stephen Mack yesterday was bot generated too... It's amazing to me how people seem to need to discredit things, I fail to understand why. Their are people that work at companies that really do care and will take the time on occasion to personally answer emails. But people here are always such skeptics.


I am a natural skeptic, unless it is verifiable and can be results can be validated, the results are questionable. Guess it comes from what I do for a living.

No idea if the email is valid or not, depends on to many variables that cannot be vlaidted. If you feel it was a ploy to "discredit you" then that is your opinion, the statement was made to put forth other methods of replies to emails that are sent out besides personal human generated methods.

Not sure what the issue is with your remote lag, use the latest white remote and do not notice lag on menu changes, will ask my wife to see if she notices it since she tends to hang out to it fairly tightly when I am around - she hates the fact that I mainly channel surf. I have the DVR set to native, only have 1080 selected on the resolutions (have a new 1080P LCD) available so it does not have to hunt through the different resolutions


----------



## magnus

I was referring to new customers. They do not know what they are missing and so they would not care. I was not at all referring to you.



sjberra said:


> Guess not, I have only owned 3 HR10-250's, still have 1 in service and 2 SD Tivo based units in service - so I guess you don't consider them TIVO based units? If not what exactly are they? If they are not TIVO boxes then you are right I have never seen a TIVO in action, but since this disagreement is about the HR10 and and it's TIVo software, I suspect you just might be wrong on that statement.


I don't agree to them but D* forced one on me non the less. They did not even tell me that they were doing that.


> Commitments? Means nothing to me - do not plan on leaving Directv, have had it since they had the DSS logo, in my area it is the only decent game in town. If you feel that way - then don't agree to any contracts, since they are commitments.


When I called they never knew a damn thing about Tivo. They never got things right and they never apologized when they were wrong.


> Never had an issue with CS, every time I have called them my problems where resolved in a reasonable amount of time, but then YMMV on that. Have had 0 issues with the techs that have come out to my house and to the place where I work - since we have 4 commercial accounts active with Directv there that have a total of 74 recievers active across all the accounts (you can only have 20 recievers on a single commercial account) and getting ready to add 12 more.


Have you read it lately?? 


> Not quite sure what you mean by "customer agreement is one-sided" - what exactly is that?


No, I'm not. The content is just not what it used to be or maybe my tastes have changed but I find OTA to be a better value. And using Dish Now (prepaid service) helps to supplement things when I find there are items of value to watch.

I was paying $80 a month for D* and the value is just not there. 


> Also "And raise you, not for a billion would I go back to D*. " does this mean you are not currently a customer of Directv?


I don't remember saying that it did.

Edit: Item 4.... I did not state it that way.


> Curious - what does anything you mention have to do with the quality of the DVR? You mention
> 
> 1. The fact that in your opion their CS sucks
> 2. The fact that in your opinion commitments are a joke
> 3. The fact that in your opinion customer agreement is one sided
> 4. The fact that in your opinion that I have never seen a TIVO in action - which I thought a HR10-250 is a TIVO based box
> 
> Maybe I am missing it, but see nothing to reference the quality of a DVR or the pros and cons of one dvr software interface over another


----------



## sjberra

magnus said:


> I was referring to new customers. They do not know what they are missing and so they would not care. I was not at all referring to you.
> 
> I don't agree to them but D* forced one on me non the less. They did not even tell me that they were doing that.
> 
> When I called they never knew a damn thing about Tivo. They never got things right and they never apologized when they were wrong.
> 
> Have you read it lately??
> 
> No, I'm not. The content is just not what it used to be or maybe my tastes have changed but I find OTA to be a better value. And using Dish Now (prepaid service) helps to supplement things when I find there are items of value to watch.
> 
> I was paying $80 a month for D* and the value is just not there.
> 
> I don't remember saying that it did.
> 
> Edit: Item 4.... I did not state it that way.


The thing you need to remember is that out of all the CS calls they recieve - the number of posts on forums refect a minority of the of the overall calls that are placed to their support lines - and those are just the "bad expierences" Rarely will someone post a "Hey I got great service from [enter the name here]. I am spekaing from personal expierence, have not had a issue with their CS on any of the calls that I have made to them recently

As far as your edit on point 4 - not sure what you are speaking of, everything I bullet pointed in the response was to what you posted in the quote. If it is what I suspect it is, it would be this

"- 4. The fact that in your opinion that I have never seen a TIVO in action - which I thought a HR10-250 is a TIVO based box"

Which would be a direct bullet point asking for clarification to the statement you made of

"If you can deal with all that then it's not that bad a DVR... *if you've never seen a Tivo in action.*"

Although I am not sure, it is very confusing as to what you are referencing in that response. If it is wrong, please clarify so that I can understand the point you are trying to make and give a suitable response.

Still looking for an clarification of of the question "Not quite sure what you mean by "customer agreement is one-sided" - what exactly is that?"

Is "Dish Now prepaid service" actually Dish Networks? That is the only reference I could find on the net to this - if that is the case I would guess that you are using a TIVO based DVR to record your OTA and the Dish DVR to record the content that you recieve from Dish? If so I am curious on how you compare the Dish DVR to the Tivo, since Dish's local advertising here states their DVR is better then a TIVO. That is if "Dish Now" is Dish Network - that is the only referenc


----------



## magnus

I was not at all referring to you with that statement. I was referring to new customers. So, if you really thought I was then I apologize for that. What I was trying to say is that... the new customers.... who have never used Tivo.... would not know what they were missing and would accept the D* DVR as being a good box (maybe even great).

And so contrary to what BlankMan thinks, the majority of D* subscribers are just not going to care about having Tivo back.



sjberra said:


> As far as your edit on point 4 - not sure what you are speaking of, everything I bullet pointed in the response was to what you posted in the quote. If it is what I suspect it is, it would be this
> 
> "- 4. The fact that in your opinion that I have never seen a TIVO in action - which I thought a HR10-250 is a TIVO based box"
> 
> Which would be a direct bullet point asking for clarification to the statement you made of
> 
> "If you can deal with all that then it's not that bad a DVR... *if you've never seen a Tivo in action.*"
> 
> Although I am not sure, it is very confusing as to what you are referencing in that response. If it is wrong, please clarify so that I can understand the point you are trying to make and give a suitable response.


Ok, I]ll give it a shot. You might not find it one-sided but I do.
http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=P400042

(2) Access Card Replacement Fee: If you do not return the Access Card when requested to do so, or if we have to replace the Access Card, we may charge you a replacement fee of up to $300.00. If you return the old Access Card to us, you may receive partial credit to your account. If you request overnight delivery of the replacement Access Card, you must pay a shipping and handling fee of up to $16.50.

*$300 for a piece of plastic*

(e) Payment Upon Cancellation. You acknowledge that you have provided your credit or debit card account information to us. You understand that you will incur fees and charges as a result of your receipt and use of Service and/or Receiving Equipment, and may incur early cancellation fees and/or equipment non-return fees (as specified in any lease, programming or other service commitment agreement you entered into in connection with obtaining Receiving Equipment). By giving us your credit or debit card account information, you authorize us to apply this method of payment, in accordance with applicable law, to satisfy any and all amounts due upon cancellation. You further acknowledge that you are required to maintain current credit or debit card information with us and agree to notify us whenever there is a change in such information, such as a change in the card number or the expiration date.

With that your agreeing that if you have ever paid D* with a credit card that they can just take money without your authorization. That happened to me when I canceled service. I canceled and no one told me that they still thought I had a commitment. Then a month later I got a bill for about $250. I called and asked what the deal was and they had given me a new 2 year commitment for a receiver that I replaced (both were owned by me). I was never told about any new commitment when changing the box. I told them I would not pay and so they took the money from my CC without authorization. I complained to my CC and they removed the charge citing that D* had no right to do that. The way D* thinks.... they have the right to take money from your CC till the end of time.

There are plenty of other problems with that agreement but I will leave it at those 2.

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P500014

you agree to pay DIRECTV the sum of $55 per each DIRECTV standard receiver; $200 for each DIRECTV DVR Receiver; $240 for each DIRECTV HD Receiver; or $470 for each DIRECTV HD DVR Receiver that is not returned to DIRECTV or that is damaged when it is returned to DIRECTV

*
$55 for a standard receiver
$200 for an R15*
They throw them things away like they are candy but if they wanted to they could charge you out the a** for them.



> Still looking for an clarification of of the question "Not quite sure what you mean by "customer agreement is one-sided" - what exactly is that?"


Yes, It is Dish Networks. You use it when you want. No need to give SSN. No expensive equipment to buy (paid $40 for the receiver on ebay). No cards to return.

I do not use the Dish DVR. I have a Dish prepaid receiver and when I find that there is good enough content for a time period then I pay for a $40 card (gets you 40 days of consecutive service on the 1 box). Then I hook up my trusty S2 to it and record away. Once the content is on my S2 then I can easily move it to the S3.


> Is "Dish Now prepaid service" actually Dish Networks? That is the only reference I could find on the net to this - if that is the case I would guess that you are using a TIVO based DVR to record your OTA and the Dish DVR to record the content that you recieve from Dish? If so I am curious on how you compare the Dish DVR to the Tivo, since Dish's local advertising here states their DVR is better then a TIVO. That is if "Dish Now" is Dish Network - that is the only referenc


----------



## sjberra

magnus said:


> I was not at all referring to you with that statement. I was referring to new customers. So, if you really thought I was then I apologize for that. What I was trying to say is that... the new customers.... who have never used Tivo.... would not know what they were missing and would accept the D* DVR as being a good box (maybe even great).
> 
> And so contrary to what BlankMan thinks, the majority of D* subscribers are just not going to care about having Tivo back.
> 
> Ok, I]ll give it a shot. You might not find it one-sided but I do.
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=P400042
> 
> (2) Access Card Replacement Fee: If you do not return the Access Card when requested to do so, or if we have to replace the Access Card, we may charge you a replacement fee of up to $300.00. If you return the old Access Card to us, you may receive partial credit to your account. If you request overnight delivery of the replacement Access Card, you must pay a shipping and handling fee of up to $16.50.
> 
> *$300 for a piece of plastic*
> 
> (e) Payment Upon Cancellation. You acknowledge that you have provided your credit or debit card account information to us. You understand that you will incur fees and charges as a result of your receipt and use of Service and/or Receiving Equipment, and may incur early cancellation fees and/or equipment non-return fees (as specified in any lease, programming or other service commitment agreement you entered into in connection with obtaining Receiving Equipment). By giving us your credit or debit card account information, you authorize us to apply this method of payment, in accordance with applicable law, to satisfy any and all amounts due upon cancellation. You further acknowledge that you are required to maintain current credit or debit card information with us and agree to notify us whenever there is a change in such information, such as a change in the card number or the expiration date.
> 
> With that your agreeing that if you have ever paid D* with a credit card that they can just take money without your authorization. That happened to me when I canceled service. I canceled and no one told me that they still thought I had a commitment. Then a month later I got a bill for about $250. I called and asked what the deal was and they had given me a new 2 year commitment for a receiver that I replaced (both were owned by me). I was never told about any new commitment when changing the box. I told them I would not pay and so they took the money from my CC without authorization. I complained to my CC and they removed the charge citing that D* had no right to do that. The way D* thinks.... they have the right to take money from your CC till the end of time.
> 
> There are plenty of other problems with that agreement but I will leave it at those 2.
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P500014
> 
> you agree to pay DIRECTV the sum of $55 per each DIRECTV standard receiver; $200 for each DIRECTV DVR Receiver; $240 for each DIRECTV HD Receiver; or $470 for each DIRECTV HD DVR Receiver that is not returned to DIRECTV or that is damaged when it is returned to DIRECTV
> 
> *
> $55 for a standard receiver
> $200 for an R15*
> They throw them things away like they are candy but if they wanted to they could charge you out the a** for them.
> 
> Yes, It is Dish Networks. You use it when you want. No need to give SSN. No expensive equipment to buy (paid $40 for the receiver on ebay). No cards to return.
> 
> I do not use the Dish DVR. I have a Dish prepaid receiver and when I find that there is good enough content for a time period then I pay for a $40 card (gets you 40 days of consecutive service on the 1 box). Then I hook up my trusty S2 to it and record away. Once the content is on my S2 then I can easily move it to the S3.


No I do not see it as one sided at all, actually what you qoute is standard business and contract practices for the majority of business out there. Directv is not the only company that does that - sorry, but they are not taking your money without authorization, you agreed to the terms of service when you authorized them to autopay from your credit card. Not an unusual sitatuation in the business world today. Cell phone companies do it, as a matter of fact any company that has reoccuring monthly that you authorize can and will do it. Basicly why it is so important to read and understand the contract before you agree to the terms. So what you are pointing out as a failing in Directv, is the same exact failing that other companies have, nothing new or illegal, just standard business contracts and something that makes it very important to understand exactly what you are agreeing to and what authorizations you are giving the company.

Would be interested in seeing a link to what you are using and how you are tieing the S2 into the unit to time shift record shows, have a friend who through no fault of her own has a very poor credit rating (thanks to her dead beat druggie ex-husband) that would be very interested in, she has the S2 unit also, she would love to be able to watch and record something other then what is available over OTA


----------



## magnus

I was not on monthly recurring anything. After our first year... we removed the autopay feature. When they sent the bill we would log in and send a one time payment. They did not have the authorization. Period. No one gave them the authorization. The agreement does not give them the right to take your money for the rest of your life. That kind of thinking is exactly what I'm talking about. And that's exactly why the CC removed the charge.

That's ultimately why I decided to go all Tivo and not even jack with any more agreements.

Come on... do you really think that a damn card is worth $300?

Also, in that agreement where do you see anything that states what level of service you can expect to receive? And how you can get out of the contract if you feel that you are not receiving that level (of non-published) service. You see it really is one-sided. So, what if they all have that language. It does not make it right and it certainly does not make you feel like they appreciate your business.



sjberra said:


> No I do not see it as one sided at all, actually what you qoute is standard business and contract practices for the majority of business out there. Directv is not the only company that does that - sorry, but they are not taking your money without authorization, you agreed to the terms of service when you authorized them to autopay from your credit card. Not an unusual sitatuation in the business world today. Cell phone companies do it, as a matter of fact any company that has reoccuring monthly that you authorize can and will do it. Basicly why it is so important to read and understand the contract before you agree to the terms. So what you are pointing out as a failing in Directv, is the same exact failing that other companies have, nothing new or illegal, just standard business contracts and something that makes it very important to understand exactly what you are agreeing to and what authorizations you are giving the company.


Example: 180280527394 (satellite box)
320286609525 (box and card)
230284123570 (Dish legacy lnb)

Cards : Radio Shack ($40 for 36 days - amount of time changed)
Green Dot Money Pack (different amounts but $6 fee for card)

S2 records from the satellite box (control it with the IR cables). Then use Tivo MRV to transfer to the S3 and watch it from there.

You basically get the card. Call an 800 number and then follow the prompts to get the service that you want. There are different levels like AT100, AT200, HBO, and more.

http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/our_products/prepaid/

http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/our_products/prepaid/dish_now_rates.pdf

And of course the S3 does an awesome job with OTA (1 cable, internal split, tunes 2 different channels at same time). Unbox, Youtube, and TivoCast are a great combination.


> Would be interested in seeing a link to what you are using and how you are tieing the S2 into the unit to time shift record shows, have a friend who through no fault of her own has a very poor credit rating (thanks to her dead beat druggie ex-husband) that would be very interested in, she has the S2 unit also, she would love to be able to watch and record something other then what is available over OTA


----------



## sjberra

magnus said:


> I was not on monthly recurring anything. After our first year... we removed the autopay feature. When they sent the bill we would log in and send a one time payment. They did not have the authorization. Period. No one gave them the authorization. The agreement does not give them the right to take your money for the rest of your life. That kind of thinking is exactly what I'm talking about. And that's exactly why the CC removed the charge.
> 
> That's ultimately why I decided to go all Tivo and not even jack with any more agreements.
> 
> Come on... do you really think that a damn card is worth $300?
> 
> Also, in that agreement where do you see anything that states what level of service you can expect to receive? And how you can get out of the contract if you feel that you are not receiving that level (of non-published) service. You see it really is one-sided. So, what if they all have that language. It does not make it right and it certainly does not make you feel like they appreciate your business.
> 
> Example: 180280527394 (satellite box)
> 320286609525 (box and card)
> 230284123570 (Dish legacy lnb)
> 
> Cards : Radio Shack ($40 for 36 days - amount of time changed)
> Green Dot Money Pack (different amounts but $6 fee for card)
> 
> S2 records from the satellite box (control it with the IR cables). Then use Tivo MRV to transfer to the S3 and watch it from there.
> 
> You basically get the card. Call an 800 number and then follow the prompts to get the service that you want. There are different levels like AT100, AT200, HBO, and more.
> 
> http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/our_products/prepaid/
> 
> http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/our_products/prepaid/dish_now_rates.pdf
> 
> And of course the S3 does an awesome job with OTA (1 cable, internal split, tunes 2 different channels at same time). Unbox, Youtube, and TivoCast are a great combination.


So the interface of the unit does not actually time shift like a truely integrated DVR would?

as far as the cost and the commitment, guess I am biased by real life. We have a specialized vertical market software that has a security key that is required for it to run - if the key is damaged, lost or not returned when we terminate the use of the software the penalty/loss replacement for the key is around 1,800.00 dollars. Again, detailed review of the contracts in question save alot of end user heartache and financial penalties. as far as if I feel it is worth that amount? Not my call, that is the value of the penalty placed on the loss of the device by the provider. What you agree to when you start the service.

"Also, in that agreement where do you see anything that states what level of service you can expect to receive? And how you can get out of the contract if you feel that you are not receiving that level (of non-published) service. You see it really is one-sided. So, what if they all have that language. It does not make it right and it certainly does not make you feel like they appreciate your business."

want out of a legally binding contract? Contact a lawyer and pay them to assist you.

SLA (service level agreement)? Never seen any SLA given by any residential level service provider, only in the business world have I seen it. The electric company does not give me one, the local cable company does not give one, so what is the issue? what is the SLA of you pay by the month service?

Funny when I upgraded my service, the install had a contract agreement to sign, it detailed the requirements here, maybe your installer did not? if there is no SLA in place, then how can you save those statements?

The bottom line is you are jumping on one company for not providing what you feel is your just do, then you turn around and state that "so what if they all have that language" - not to logical, why apply the rules to one service and ignore the others? It appears that your issue is not with the equipment/content provided, but with the provider itself.


----------



## BlankMan

magnus said:


> the new customers.... who have never used Tivo.... would not know what they were missing and would accept the D* DVR as being a good box (maybe even great).
> 
> And so contrary to what BlankMan thinks, the majority of D* subscribers are just not going to care about having Tivo back.


No, actually I realized all this. If you never had a TiVo, and even further, if you never had a DVR, then yes, unfortunately you would probably think DirecTV's DVR is the greatest thing since sliced bread. That is a big part of the problem, no baseline for the comparison.


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## shibby191

BlankMan said:


> No, actually I realized all this. If you never had a TiVo, and even further, if you never had a DVR, then yes, unfortunately you would probably think DirecTV's DVR is the greatest thing since sliced bread. That is a big part of the problem, no baseline for the comparison.


Why is it a problem? If those people are satisfied with the product, why is it a problem that maybe something better is out there? And why does that make said product bad? I mean I'm satisfied with my crapbox Kia car but that doesn't mean there isn't something better out there.


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## magnus

Thanks, I think you more than proved my point. 

Yes, I'm pretty sure it does time shift. Isn't that what Tivos do?



sjberra said:


> So the interface of the unit does not actually time shift like a truely integrated DVR would?
> 
> as far as the cost and the commitment, guess I am biased by real life. We have a specialized vertical market software that has a security key that is required for it to run - if the key is damaged, lost or not returned when we terminate the use of the software the penalty/loss replacement for the key is around 1,800.00 dollars. Again, detailed review of the contracts in question save alot of end user heartache and financial penalties. as far as if I feel it is worth that amount? Not my call, that is the value of the penalty placed on the loss of the device by the provider. What you agree to when you start the service.
> 
> "Also, in that agreement where do you see anything that states what level of service you can expect to receive? And how you can get out of the contract if you feel that you are not receiving that level (of non-published) service. You see it really is one-sided. So, what if they all have that language. It does not make it right and it certainly does not make you feel like they appreciate your business."
> 
> want out of a legally binding contract? Contact a lawyer and pay them to assist you.
> 
> SLA (service level agreement)? Never seen any SLA given by any residential level service provider, only in the business world have I seen it. The electric company does not give me one, the local cable company does not give one, so what is the issue? what is the SLA of you pay by the month service?
> 
> Funny when I upgraded my service, the install had a contract agreement to sign, it detailed the requirements here, maybe your installer did not? if there is no SLA in place, then how can you save those statements?
> 
> The bottom line is you are jumping on one company for not providing what you feel is your just do, then you turn around and state that "so what if they all have that language" - not to logical, why apply the rules to one service and ignore the others? It appears that your issue is not with the equipment/content provided, but with the provider itself.


----------



## sjberra

magnus said:


> Thanks, I think you more than proved my point.
> 
> Yes, I'm pretty sure it does time shift. Isn't that what Tivos do?


hmm really i did? News to me. Interesting though, not sure exactly what "point of yours" you think I proved but not really worth it anymore, sometimes you just have to walk away from a discussion becuase it is no longer going anywhere logical. Not sure what your definition of time shift is, but from what you explainn, it does not fit mine.

Enjoy yourself, have a good day today and a better day tomorrow.


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## magnus

NP



sjberra said:


> hmm really i did? News to me. Interesting though, not sure exactly what "point of yours" you think I proved but not really worth it anymore, sometimes you just have to walk away from a discussion becuase it is no longer going anywhere logical. Not sure what your definition of time shift is, but from what you explainn, it does not fit mine.
> 
> Enjoy yourself, have a good day today and a better day tomorrow.


----------



## BlankMan

shibby191 said:


> Why is it a problem? If those people are satisfied with the product, why is it a problem that maybe something better is out there? And why does that make said product bad? I mean I'm satisfied with my crapbox Kia car but that doesn't mean there isn't something better out there.


Well, you pretty much said it yourself, using a Kia when they could be using the Rolls Royce.

They may be satisfied with it because they do not realize there is that big of difference, a DVR is a DVR is a DVR...

Both a Kia and a Rolls Royce will get you from Point A to Point B, and that is their main purpose, but how they get you there is the big difference.

To make an educated choice you have to have knowledge of all that you are able to choose from, being familiar with only one does not allow for making that educated choice. And DirectTV not exposing customers to the TiVo experience any more creates that problem, they only know the DirecTV DVR and they think it's great.  (Those of us that know better.  )


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## shibby191

BlankMan said:


> Well, you pretty much said it yourself, using a Kia when they could be using the Rolls Royce.
> 
> They may be satisfied with it because they do not realize there is that big of difference, a DVR is a DVR is a DVR...
> 
> Both a Kia and a Rolls Royce will get you from Point A to Point B, and that is their main purpose, but how they get you there is the big difference.
> 
> To make an educated choice you have to have knowledge of all that you are able to choose from, being familiar with only one does not allow for making that educated choice. And DirectTV not exposing customers to the TiVo experience any more creates that problem, they only know the DirecTV DVR and they think it's great.  (Those of us that know better.  )


But again, why does this matter? There are many people that choose to drink Budweiser while there are much better beers out there to drink. They are happy with Budweiser, even knowing there is better out there. I know Tivo is out there and is the "top of the line" but that doesn't mean I'm unhappy with using something else. I know that Mac is typically shown to be better then PC but I'm perfectly satisfied with my Windows PC.

Fact is that people are happy, typically, with what they are given as a DVR. Only reason to explain why tens of millions of people still use the crappy cable DVRs. Yea, maybe they "don't know any better" but again, that just doesn't matter. DirecTV also understands this from a business perspective. Vilify them all you want for parting ways with Tivo, it just doesn't matter in the big picture when all your new subs have no idea there is "something better" in some people's minds and they are pleased as punch with the DVR they have.

If you "know better" and it actually matters then you can choose to go where you can get what you feel is best.


----------



## TyroneShoes

shibby191 said:


> But again, why does this matter? There are many people that choose to drink Budweiser while there are much better beers out there to drink. They are happy with Budweiser, even knowing there is better out there. I know Tivo is out there and is the "top of the line" but that doesn't mean I'm unhappy with using something else. I know that Mac is typically shown to be better then PC but I'm perfectly satisfied with my Windows PC...


Those are great points. Actually, I consider the point that Tivo is "top of the line" or accepted to be significantly superior to other DVRs to be a specious argument, and not a fact ever entered into evidence.

Just like your Mac/PC analogy, there are things that a PC does better than a Mac (Blasphemy!), just like there are things, and a lot of things, that the HR2x does better than the HR10. Even graded overall, it's still pretty close. CNet reports that the VIP622/722 is better than Tivo (a point that DISH will just not shut up about, and who can blame them?).

I am quite impressed with the HR2x. Maybe not blown away like I was by the first HR10, but close. There are things that I find work better on the HR2x, and other things that work better on the HR10. The reliability level of the HR2x is pretty good, while the once-nearly-perfect reliability of the HR10 has sunk to about the same level ever since v6.3. Expandability is a different sort of experience on the HR2x, but certainly a lot more affordable than on the HR10.

So it is IMHO a little arrogant of some of the other posters here to blindly assume that Tivo is considered by all to be top of anything anymore, and it might just be living on an unearned and now-faded reputation. It was on top, but that was then and this is now. Things change. We can all have our opinions, but in no way is it a foregone conclusion that Tivo is still the king of DVRs. There are a lot of viable contenders for that throne.


----------



## magnus

You are comparing the HR2x to the HR10-250. That's like comparing a New Dell running Vista to a Old Mac G4 running OS9.

Maybe if you compared the Tivo HD or S3 to the HR2x then you might have a better point. And I'm sure if you were going to make that comparison then you would be sure to at least use the new Tivo boxes before such Blasphemy. 



TyroneShoes said:


> Those are great points. Actually, I consider the point that Tivo is "top of the line" or accepted to be significantly superior to other DVRs to be a specious argument, and not a fact ever entered into evidence.
> 
> Just like your Mac/PC analogy, there are things that a PC does better than a Mac (Blasphemy!), just like there are things, and a lot of things, that the HR2x does better than the HR10. Even graded overall, it's still pretty close. CNet reports that the VIP622/722 is better than Tivo (a point that DISH will just not shut up about, and who can blame them?).
> 
> I am quite impressed with the HR2x. Maybe not blown away like I was by the first HR10, but close. There are things that I find work better on the HR2x, and other things that work better on the HR10. The reliability level of the HR2x is pretty good, while the once-nearly-perfect reliability of the HR10 has sunk to about the same level ever since v6.3. Expandability is a different sort of experience on the HR2x, but certainly a lot more affordable than on the HR10.
> 
> So it is IMHO a little arrogant of some of the other posters here to blindly assume that Tivo is considered by all to be top of anything anymore, and it might just be living on an unearned and now-faded reputation. It was on top, but that was then and this is now. Things change. We can all have our opinions, but in no way is it a foregone conclusion that Tivo is still the king of DVRs. There are a lot of viable contenders for that throne.


----------



## TonyTheTiger

magnus said:


> You are comparing the HR2x to the HR10-250. That's like comparing a New Dell running Vista to a Old Mac G4 running OS9.
> 
> *Maybe if you compared the Tivo HD or S3 to the HR2x *then you might have a better point. And I'm sure if you were going to make that comparison then you would be sure to at least use the new Tivo boxes before such Blasphemy.


Seeing as neither can use the signals of the other, it's apples and oranges.


----------



## magnus

And seeing as the HR10-250 uses older technology than the HR2x. And the feature set that D* kept from the HR10-250 users.... then you're still talking apples and oranges. 

And that was exactly my point.



TonyTheTiger said:


> Seeing as neither can use the signals of the other, it's apples and oranges.


----------



## sjberra

magnus said:


> You are comparing the HR2x to the HR10-250. That's like comparing a New Dell running Vista to a Old Mac G4 running OS9.
> 
> Maybe if you compared the Tivo HD or S3 to the HR2x then you might have a better point. And I'm sure if you were going to make that comparison then you would be sure to at least use the new Tivo boxes before such Blasphemy.


Bottom point here is you cannot use the new TIVO boxes on directv, so it is a illogical comparison. Why try to compare to something that cannot work correctly on the provider of choice? Makes no sense at all

The only way of being accurate is to be able to compare oranges to oranges with the boxes is to utilize equipment that can intergrate 100 percent into the infrastructure of the provider of the content. Any other comparisions are equal to citing "polls" that are supposed to prove a illogical point and said polls cannot be verified to the accurancy of the voting (aka one person did not vote 10 times for their bias of choice). Like asking the question "Have you stopped beating your spouse yet?" No available answer to this type of tainted question.

Blasphemy? when did this become a religion? There are better terms for this, but suspect that most of the posters would take them in a different light (no to answer your question already, the terms can be used in polite society).

Have both Directv based DVRs and the directtivo based DVRS running on my account - the family prefers the Directv based DVR's over the legacy Directivo DVRS for ease of use, and recording accuracy.

At the end of the day why even think about comparing anything to a device that will not function on a serivce that is preferred? that makes 0 logical sense for anything

Personally I am looking forward to a tight 100 percent integration between Directv and the upcoming crop of entertainment PC's, would love to drop all this hardware and interface Directv 100 percent into the 8 TB media center pc and extenders I use in the rest of system to stream movies to every room in the house, right now the integration is the sadly lacking, Fiji did not pan out from MS and SageTV still leaves a lot to be desicred


----------



## CuriousMark

sjberra said:


> Bottom point here is you cannot use the new TIVO boxes on directv, so it is a illogical comparison. Why try to compare to something that cannot work correctly on the provider of choice? Makes no sense at all


It only doesn't make sense if you consider provider of choice to be fixed. It isn't for me, or for many others. If you allow the provider to change it is an excellent comparison and will likely drive the choice of provider. Artificially limiting your choice to one provider is what makes no sense to me.


----------



## sjberra

CuriousMark said:


> It only doesn't make sense if you consider provider of choice to be fixed. It isn't for me, or for many others. If you allow the provider to change it is an excellent comparison and will likely drive the choice of provider. Artificially limiting your choice to one provider is what makes no sense to me.


If it is the only provider in town that has decent content then there is no other choice. The discussion is a TIVO unit that is capable of interfacing 100 percent to the new MPEG4 content provided by Directv, not a TIVO unit that interfaces with comcrap or other locations. Some of the content provided by Directv is not available anywhere else, so your compents are valid for both sides.

Content > equipment for myself and my family. Personally I want a 100 percent interface to my media center equipment with 8 TB of recording space. Changing providers is NOT an option here. With the added benefit of junking both my Directv DVR equipment and my DirectTIVO equipment while having a 100 percent seamless interface to the content provided by their services and the flexiblilty of my interconnected media pc's


----------



## shibby191

Looks like Tivo according to their latest quarterly results are down to 3.6 million subs and their own stand alone subs lost over 40K let alone all the DirecTV losses. http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2008/08/28/meet-tivo-fonzarelli.aspx

This is a good and funny article.

So if we take away DirecTV subs there are less then 1.7 million Tivo subs. There are 40 million DVR users. This goes to my point that people just don't care, they use whatever their provider gives them. 3 of my friends have cable. All three think they have Tivo (they don't, it's the cable provided DVR). The one guy I know with Dish swears he has Tivo no matter how many times I tell him he doesn't. Even among my many friends with DirecTV, most think the new HR20/21's are Tivo. And that's the problem with Tivo that they can't overcome. If it's a DVR then the vast majority of the population will think "it's a Tivo". Thus Tivo the company has a really hard time of selling themselves as "better" since the people they would try to sell to already think they have Tivo.

My only point with all this is that the thought that DirecTV "needs" Tivo is just plain flawed. The facts say otherwise with the way the DVR market is.


----------



## fasTLane

> The one guy I know with Dish swears he has Tivo no matter how many times I tell him he doesn't.


Yea. Dish really pulled one over on Tivo, lol...


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## sjberra

fasTLane said:


> Yea. Dish really pulled one over on Tivo, lol...


The commercials for Dish here used to state - Our DVR is better then a TIVO


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## magnus

And since the Directv Tivo cannot do this... then as I said it's still comparing apples to oranges... either way you slice it.... they can't be compared.



sjberra said:


> The only way of being accurate is to be able to compare oranges to oranges with the boxes is to utilize equipment that can intergrate 100 percent into the infrastructure of the provider of the content.





> The discussion is a TIVO unit that is capable of interfacing 100 percent to the new MPEG4 content provided by Directv, not a TIVO unit that interfaces with comcrap or other locations.


----------



## CuriousMark

sjberra said:


> If it is the only provider in town that has decent content then there is no other choice. The discussion is a TIVO unit that is capable of interfacing 100 percent to the new MPEG4 content provided by Directv, not a TIVO unit that interfaces with comcrap or other locations. Some of the content provided by Directv is not available anywhere else, so your compents are valid for both sides.


Within the bounds of your artificial limitation, there can be no argument. But where is the value in that?

There will always be differences between providers. That still does not preclude meaningful comparisons between the navigation devices that front those providers.

Obviously cable has nothing you want, which is fine, but please don't tell others they can't make comparisons when their situation may find DTV and Cable content similar enough for their needs.

In an ideal world having a TiVo that could interface 100% with DTV MP4 and has all the regular TiVo features would be a great thing. Having it would not take away in the least from the Other DVRs DTV would still support. I don't get why adding customer choice is so ardently put down here. Sure it may never happen, but preventing people from expressing their desires or poo-pooing them for having a desire different than someone else's isn't helpful.


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## BlankMan

CuriousMark said:


> There will always be differences between providers. That still does not preclude meaningful comparisons between the navigation devices that front those providers.
> 
> Obviously cable has nothing you want, which is fine, but please don't tell others they can't make comparisons when their situation may find DTV and Cable content similar enough for their needs.


I would agree with that statement wholly.

It doesn't matter what the pipe is, the comparison is of the OS of the device, i.e. the UI, features, reliability, etc., not the content of what is coming down the pipe, that is irrelevant.


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## shibby191

BlankMan said:


> I would agree with that statement wholly.
> 
> It doesn't matter what the pipe is, the comparison is of the OS of the device, i.e. the UI, features, reliability, etc., not the content of what is coming down the pipe, that is irrelevant.


Well it certainly matters when my cable provider has all of 20 HD channels and 5 of those are locals while DirecTV or Dish has 5 times that much including many that we watch. Content has everything to do with it. Now I guess if all your choices in providers have all the content you want then sure it comes down to the UI of the DVR, but I'd hazzard to guess that price comes next for most people. The DVR is a distant afterthought for most.


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## CuriousMark

shibby191 said:


> Well it certainly matters when my cable provider has all of 20 HD channels and 5 of those are locals while DirecTV or Dish has 5 times that much including many that we watch. Content has everything to do with it. Now I guess if all your choices in providers have all the content you want then sure it comes down to the UI of the DVR, but I'd hazzard to guess that price comes next for most people. The DVR is a distant afterthought for most.


Different things matter to different people. That is why it is important to let them discuss things in their own context. What you mention is important too. How different people weigh them will vary.

Cable will be adding a lot of HD as they ramp up their SDV efforts. In another year or two HD content may be similar, or maybe not.

Unchaining the navigator from the content would provide customers the best of all worlds. They could then pick the pipe for content and the navigator for UI, features, and compatibility with their existing equipment. We have that with phones now. I am hoping we will have it with TV in the not too distant future.

I know doing so will be hard. There are serious technology differences between cable and satellite that may keep things balkanized for a long time to come unless some serious standardization efforts come to pass. I don't see a single device handling both sat and cable soon, although that would be cool. Order content Ala Carte from both and build your own channel map. Now that would be tasty.


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## Adam1115

I know I'm a little late on this thread, but the poll is missing the most important option.

The best way to let DirecTV know that their DVR is unacceptable and that TiVo is superior, is to cancel DirecTV and switch to cable and let them know that instead of complaining for years on end...f

All you are doing by complaining is telling them that you hate the DVR but aren't willing to actually do anything about it, so why should they change anything...


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## sjberra

CuriousMark said:


> Within the bounds of your artificial limitation, there can be no argument. But where is the value in that?
> 
> There will always be differences between providers. That still does not preclude meaningful comparisons between the navigation devices that front those providers.
> 
> Obviously cable has nothing you want, which is fine, but please don't tell others they can't make comparisons when their situation may find DTV and Cable content similar enough for their needs.
> 
> In an ideal world having a TiVo that could interface 100% with DTV MP4 and has all the regular TiVo features would be a great thing. Having it would not take away in the least from the Other DVRs DTV would still support. I don't get why adding customer choice is so ardently put down here. Sure it may never happen, but preventing people from expressing their desires or poo-pooing them for having a desire different than someone else's isn't helpful.


Hmm, discussion concerning Directv and TIVO, comparision to a TIVO unit that does not function correctly on the providers infrastructure, but this is a "artificial comparision", interesting conjunction, or are you blue sky wishing and utilizing blue smoke and mirrors to decide what, if any advanced features they would allow on thier infrastructure?

Sorry you feel that posting a opposing view to the Gospel according to Tivo is a blasphemy as one poster stated is "preventing people from expressing their desires or poo-pooing them for having a desire different than someone else's isn't helpful", but at the end of the day - it is just that, an opposing view. Personally I support the "third view" give us 100 percent interface to media center type equipment and allow us to throw both the TIVO and The Directv DVR units into the trash

As mentioned numerous times before, still have DirectTivo units in use on my account.


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## sjberra

BlankMan said:


> I would agree with that statement wholly.
> 
> It doesn't matter what the pipe is, the comparison is of the OS of the device, i.e. the UI, features, reliability, etc., not the content of what is coming down the pipe, that is irrelevant.


No, what is coming down the pipe is relevant, or at least it appears to be - if not people would stick the TIVO unit on OTA/Cable infrastructure and walk away from the discussion, but the argument to get Directv to change what to all intensts and decisions the corporate development timeline and bring back a HR10 style box that has the Directivo interface keeps being nerco'd

believe the OS of the device is Linux, the TIVO IU is just that - a graphical interface wrapped around a application program.

Sorry, but content is primary concern here, a drunk monkey with a video camera can be the UI for comparision. If the content is not there, then the most wonderful, elegant, intuitive blue smoke and mirrors UI interface is just that - a window dressing.

Given the verifiable number posted in financials of the companies - TIVO needs directv, directv does not need tivo


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## fasTLane

sjberra said:


> ...TIVO needs directv, directv does not need tivo


Matters not to this household. Just as we don't need XM or Sirius to listen to good radio, we can do just fine with the Tivo interface and local content.


----------



## CuriousMark

sjberra said:


> Hmm, discussion concerning Directv and TIVO, comparision to a TIVO unit that does not function correctly on the providers infrastructure, but this is a "artificial comparision", interesting conjunction, or are you blue sky wishing and utilizing blue smoke and mirrors to decide what, if any advanced features they would allow on thier infrastructure?
> 
> Sorry you feel that posting a opposing view to the Gospel according to Tivo is a blasphemy as one poster stated is "preventing people from expressing their desires or poo-pooing them for having a desire different than someone else's isn't helpful", but at the end of the day - it is just that, an opposing view. Personally I support the "third view" give us 100 percent interface to media center type equipment and allow us to throw both the TIVO and The Directv DVR units into the trash
> 
> As mentioned numerous times before, still have DirectTivo units in use on my account.


Yes, blue sky, but not smoke and mirrors, it could be done if DirecTV wanted to. It would be just as good as the media center option which also blue sky at this time, right?

No one wants to go back to the older TiVo, that isn't what I was asking for or desire.

I also do not feel that posting an opposite view is wrong, I was trying to encourage such. I was railing against the Gospel according to DirecTV, which is just as bad as the opposite. We are not here to put words in each other's mouths that neither one really said or believes.

Your third view is a good one too. I just want an option involving a modern, fully featured (not locked into a minimal feature set) TiVo that can access the full feature set and content of the DirecTV pipe. I agree I may never see it, but I am talking blue sky here, always was. In this blue sky we get the best of both worlds. It is technically feasible, if DirecTV business types are willing to let it happen. Some day it may get shoved down their throats when the separable security and open network waiver expires anyway. DirecTV could get out ahead of that and work with TiVo and other CE vendors to offer navigators that will meet FCC requirements while they still have more control over the situation.

It would be a good thing all around, for all of us. People who like what they have now can stay with it and people who want a new choice will have something to choose from.


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## magnus

I would only ever consider option 3. I would want all the Tivo features and not be watered down like D* had things in the past.

I would also want it to be compatable with E*. So that I could change providers... Like the cablecard boxes.

This is really the best option for those of us that care about having Tivo.



CuriousMark said:


> Yes, blue sky, but not smoke and mirrors, it could be done if DirecTV wanted to. It would be just as good as the media center option which also blue sky at this time, right?
> 
> No one wants to go back to the older TiVo, that isn't what I was asking for or desire.
> 
> I also do not feel that posting an opposite view is wrong, I was trying to encourage such. I was railing against the Gospel according to DirecTV, which is just as bad as the opposite. We are not here to put words in each other's mouths that neither one really said or believes.
> 
> Your third view is a good one too. I just want an option involving a modern, fully featured (not locked into a minimal feature set) TiVo that can access the full feature set and content of the DirecTV pipe. I agree I may never see it, but I am talking blue sky here, always was. In this blue sky we get the best of both worlds. It is technically feasible, if DirecTV business types are willing to let it happen. Some day it may get shoved down their throats when the separable security and open network waiver expires anyway. DirecTV could get out ahead of that and work with TiVo and other CE vendors to offer navigators that will meet FCC requirements while they still have more control over the situation.
> 
> It would be a good thing all around, for all of us. People who like what they have now can stay with it and people who want a new choice will have something to choose from.


----------



## CuriousMark

magnus said:


> I would only ever consider option 3. I would want all the Tivo features and not be watered down like D* had things in the past.
> 
> I would also want it to be compatable [sp] with E*. So that I could change providers... Like the cablecard boxes.
> 
> This is really the best option for those of us that care about having Tivo.


Agree, and I think that is what the FCC will *eventually* demand.


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## magnus

Yep, blackberrys are nice but it's sometimes harder to see those spelling mistakes.


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## CuriousMark

just teasing


----------



## BlankMan

shibby191 said:


> Well it certainly matters when my cable provider has all of 20 HD channels and 5 of those are locals while DirecTV or Dish has 5 times that much including many that we watch. Content has everything to do with it. Now I guess if all your choices in providers have all the content you want then sure it comes down to the UI of the DVR, but I'd hazzard to guess that price comes next for most people. The DVR is a distant afterthought for most.


What does how many channels there are have anything to do with the User Interface? How many keypresses it takes to execute a function? How the Menu's are layered? How fast the unit performs a function? Etc.

Absolutely nothing.

Content has nothing to do with comparing operation and features of different DVR's. It has everything to do with comparing the programming that is offered. Big difference.

You don't need like programming to compare the Operation/Features of the different DVR's.


----------



## BlankMan

sjberra said:


> No, what is coming down the pipe is relevant, or at least it appears to be - if not people would stick the TIVO unit on OTA/Cable infrastructure and walk away from the discussion, but the argument to get Directv to change what to all intensts and decisions the corporate development timeline and bring back a HR10 style box that has the Directivo interface keeps being nerco'd
> 
> believe the OS of the device is Linux, the TIVO IU is just that - a graphical interface wrapped around a application program.
> 
> Sorry, but content is primary concern here, a drunk monkey with a video camera can be the UI for comparision. If the content is not there, then the most wonderful, elegant, intuitive blue smoke and mirrors UI interface is just that - a window dressing.
> 
> Given the verifiable number posted in financials of the companies - TIVO needs directv, directv does not need tivo


It's not relevant when comparing Operation/Features that the different DVR's offer.

It's relevant to the user to pick the provider that has what they want at a price they want to pay.

Whether or not I get this History Channel in no way affects how my DVR operates, what feature is has, etc., whether or not I get a channel only controls whether I can watch and/or record that channel.

My response was directed towards the comments saying you can't compare the DVR's because they are using different providers. Yes you can, because you should be comparing the operation and features of the DVR's which has nothing what so ever to do with how may and what channels they get, ergo, what you can watch and record. Opertions and features, not programming. Programming may get you to choose one provider over the other and then be stuck with a DVR that may not have the features you would like.


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## sjberra

BlankMan said:


> It's not relevant when comparing Operation/Features that the different DVR's offer.
> 
> It's relevant to the user to pick the provider that has what they want at a price they want to pay.
> 
> Whether or not I get this History Channel in no way affects how my DVR operates, what feature is has, etc., whether or not I get a channel only controls whether I can watch and/or record that channel.
> 
> My response was directed towards the comments saying you can't compare the DVR's because they are using different providers. Yes you can, because you should be comparing the operation and features of the DVR's which has nothing what so ever to do with how may and what channels they get, ergo, what you can watch and record. Opertions and features, not programming. Programming may get you to choose one provider over the other and then be stuck with a DVR that may not have the features you would like.


Just depends on the priorities that are set. Personally prefer content.

Given the track record of what Directv allowed TIVO to place in the HR10, it seems to indicate that the same type of control would be place on the new unit. Suspect that one serious short coming of the series that would have to go would be the ability to hack the system and add your own patches to override supressed abilities. Given the current trend in copyright protection that is being rolled out, this would probably be the first bit of functionality to go if a TIVO stye GUI was accepted by Directv. Add the possiblity of the upcoming MRV interface, a single interface across all platforms is a lot easier to develop and maintain then having to code for a native written and a foreign written intreface. It appears they are working towards single user interface rather then multiple. Again personal opinion.

As mentioned would prefer to junk both interfaces for a true Media Centre compatiblity, would rather see them bending their efforts to that then resurecting a interface they dropped a number of years ago, better ROI.


----------



## shibby191

BlankMan said:


> What does how many channels there are have anything to do with the User Interface? How many keypresses it takes to execute a function? How the Menu's are layered? How fast the unit performs a function? Etc.
> 
> Absolutely nothing.
> 
> Content has nothing to do with comparing operation and features of different DVR's. It has everything to do with comparing the programming that is offered. Big difference.
> 
> You don't need like programming to compare the Operation/Features of the different DVR's.


Hey, people brought it up, thus I commented. Besides, it most definately matters because since you can't use Tivo on every provider and you can't use the DirecTV DVR on every provider, content and price are certainly something to keep in mind.

For example: DLB is a big issue. Tivo has it, DirecTV doesn't. So someone like myself might need to make a comparison like this. Charter w/Tivo and DLB and 20 HD channels and higher price. Or DirecTV without DLB and 90 HD channels and lower price. Thus I have to take it all into account when making a decision on who to go with. Now if both Charter and DirecTV were nearly identical in terms of channels they carry I care about and nearly the same in price then it might come down to just Tivo vs. DirecTV DVR, but it doesn't. Everything is give or take, pro or con. To me DLB is less important then having many more channels in HD that I watch. But perhaps for you DLB is more important then anything else, including choice in channels or price.

So yes, content and price most definately is part of the overall "package" one must look at. And frankly most people don't care about the DVR, they will take whatever the company gives them. Thus content and price are #1 on their list. May not be the same for you or others on this forum, but the reality is there.


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## CuriousMark

shibby191 said:


> Hey, people brought it up, thus I commented. Besides, it most definately matters because since you can't use Tivo on every provider and you can't use the DirecTV DVR on every provider, content and price are certainly something to keep in mind.
> 
> For example: DLB is a big issue. Tivo has it, DirecTV doesn't. So someone like myself might need to make a comparison like this. Charter w/Tivo and DLB and 20 HD channels and higher price. Or DirecTV without DLB and 90 HD channels and lower price. Thus I have to take it all into account when making a decision on who to go with. Now if both Charter and DirecTV were nearly identical in terms of channels they carry I care about and nearly the same in price then it might come down to just Tivo vs. DirecTV DVR, but it doesn't. Everything is give or take, pro or con. To me DLB is less important then having many more channels in HD that I watch. But perhaps for you DLB is more important then anything else, including choice in channels or price.
> 
> So yes, content and price most definitely is part of the overall "package" one must look at. And frankly most people don't care about the DVR, they will take whatever the company gives them. Thus content and price are #1 on their list. May not be the same for you or others on this forum, but the reality is there.


I don't believe anyone attacked or disagreed with this position. Those things do matter. But the statement was made that they are the ONLY things that matter, which isn't true. There are many variables to consider, and different people weigh them differently. It is good that all aspects get a fair hearing and discussion, each on their own merits, so that reader can make a truly informed decision. For many, content may matter less than it does to others. Which is fine, each person has to weigh the different aspects they way it works for them. Also, each person needs to be allowed to weigh them as they see fit without being told they need to weigh one item heavily because "everyone else does". I think everyone knows the majority position coming in and if they are asking questions, it may be because they want to get beyond group-think and decide for themselves.

In my case, because DTV content and price are a bit better than what TW will likely be wanting to sell me, I would prefer to have DTV offer me the ability to connect a full feature TiVo to their system. I still personally weigh those features more highly than content and price, but if I could have the best of all worlds, this would be it. As wishful as that thinking is, I still think it doesn't hurt to call DTV and ask for it. I may never get it, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Would DTV demand concessions on DVR functionality in order to allow third party devices to connect? That is an implied question in your post worth considering separately. I suspect they might, and it would be serious stumbling block. No third parties would agree to concessions that would result in a DVR that is seriously crippled in comparison with DTVs own offering. So it comes down to what kind of pressure, if any the FCC would impose when and if they lift the separable security waivers.


----------



## BlankMan

sjberra said:


> Just depends on the priorities that are set. Personally prefer content.


No, it doesn't matter what priorities you set or what you preferences are. Your priorities and preferences come into play choosing the programming and the provider, you can still do a apples to apples comparison of how a DVR operates and what features it has because that has nothing to do with what you're recording or what you're watching because that is the programming, the pipe.


sjberra said:


> As mentioned would prefer to junk both interfaces for a true Media Centre compatiblity, would rather see them bending their efforts to that then resurecting a interface they dropped a number of years ago, better ROI.


This to me would be even worse then what we have now. I'd sooner put up with what is available now then have to use anything Media Center. Unless it runs on UNIX/Linux, then I might consider it.

And I agree with you on the point for DirecTV holding back TiVo features, that was always a big problem and inexcusable.


----------



## BlankMan

shibby191 said:


> So yes, content and price most definately is part of the overall "package" one must look at. And frankly most people don't care about the DVR, they will take whatever the company gives them. Thus content and price are #1 on their list. May not be the same for you or others on this forum, but the reality is there.


Yeah, I agree 100%, when comparing the overall package programming comes into play, most definitely. And yes, most people don't give a second thought to the DVR, that's too bad, but it's not important to them. To some people it might be.

The only point I've been trying desperately to make because people are claiming you can't compare them because this one doesn't work with that provider and that one doesn't work with this provider, etc., is that when comparing the operation and features of one DVR to another DVR it has nothing to do with provider, programming, or price. It's a comparison of the units operation and features, period, that's it. You're comparing the operation and features, that does not include the programming, price, provider, etc.

It seems that this is a hard concept for people to grasp.


----------



## sjberra

BlankMan said:


> No, it doesn't matter what priorities you set or what you preferences are. Your priorities and preferences come into play choosing the programming and the provider, you can still do a apples to apples comparison of how a DVR operates and what features it has because that has nothing to do with what you're recording or what you're watching because that is the programming, the pipe.
> This to me would be even worse then what we have now. I'd sooner put up with what is available now then have to use anything Media Center. Unless it runs on UNIX/Linux, then I might consider it.
> 
> And I agree with you on the point for DirecTV holding back TiVo features, that was always a big problem and inexcusable.


Again, priorities, a drunk monkey with a video camera can act like a dvr. Have friends that are as religously addicted to the scientific americian DVR that their provider supplies to use and those that are addicted to the DISH Network dvrs. Would I select either of them - nope neither supplies the content that I and my family wants, so the dvr is a mute point and does not even come into play for consideration. Directv's holding back options, was a more then likely a business/support decision, if you feel it is inexcusable, then that is your opinion, one that I do not agree with. Content is 99.999999 percent of the decision of provider for myself and my family.

Sorry UNIX/LINUX (have 4 linux boxes running right now for various online applications) is fine for geeks that understand computers, but in everyday use the normal Joe Six pack end user will have no idea what to do when something crashes, calling tech support and trying to get coherent answers nightmare for the provider.


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## TyroneShoes

BlankMan said:


> Yeah, I agree 100%, when comparing the overall package programming comes into play, most definitely. And yes, most people don't give a second thought to the DVR, that's too bad, but it's not important to them. To some people it might be.
> 
> The only point I've been trying desperately to make because people are claiming you can't compare them because this one doesn't work with that provider and that one doesn't work with this provider, etc., is that when comparing the operation and features of one DVR to another DVR it has nothing to do with provider, programming, or price. It's a comparison of the units operation and features, period, that's it. You're comparing the operation and features, that does not include the programming, price, provider, etc.
> 
> It seems that this is a hard concept for people to grasp.


Do you really think that's hard for folks to understand? Other than to a few of the larger few who still haunt this forum, I think it could not be more simple. Maybe it's hard to grasp, maybe not. But I just don't see how it has any real importance, making THAT the real moot (or "mute" [sic]) point.

IOW, you can't compare DVR's in a vacuum and come up with enough useful information about which vendor to cast your lot with, period. Comparison in a vacuum can't really be any more useful than it might simply be an interesting waste of time. That's not to say that knowing the differences can't become important in the larger question of "who gets my money", it just rarely ever does, due to the even-larger issue, the 900-lb. gorilla issue of content.

Content has always been king. If you want the NFL pak, for instance, it does you no good whatsoever to mull over the distinctive high points of the VIP-622. If you want "Burn Notice" in HD, your HR10-250, no matter how much you might be married to it, just won't do the job, under current structure.

We have choice of content, and choice of DVR, just not typically both. Content trumps the DVR, and it might even trump price, assuming all deals are competitively reasonable. the DVR question only becomes important to figure out when the price or content questions are too close to call. That seems to be pretty-much a no-brainer to me.

Folks who think they are smart shoppers because they compare carefully both content and price, are indeed smart. Just not as informed or well-armed as those who also understand the DVR question. It is only unimportant to those who are so naive to not yet understand how important it might become to them. And those of us who've already fought some of those battles already know that it will indeed become important, usually about 10 minutes after initial installation. It just probably won't ever rise to a level of importance that's anywhere NEAR as high as getting "In Plain Sight" in HD, if that's one of your favorite programs.

Unfortunately, since we have little control over what's available to us, people will continue to make the content distinction first and choose on that basis, whether they understand the DVR question or not. They can't really go wrong with that approach, but what they end up with as a DVR will be a bit of pot luck. Maybe it's better to know what you are in for, and maybe not. Maybe it doesn't really matter if your choice is made on content instead of DVR, which all intelligently-made choices probably are.

In a perfect world content would be a la carte, and DVRs would be interchangeable, system-agnostic. It's not a perfect world. Top FCC commish Kevin Martin understands and is fighting for the first concept, and I hope he's smart enough to begin to grasp the importance of the second concept.


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## CuriousMark

sjberra said:


> As mentioned would prefer to junk both interfaces for a true Media Centre compatiblity, would rather see them bending their efforts to that then resurecting a interface they dropped a number of years ago, better ROI.


This is one more configuration to compare against the other DVRs, and I think a few fair comparisons could be made.

I believe DTV is working to support media center PCs now with a USB receiver. A media center gives you most of the things a full up TiVo does if you count using the web on your TV as an option and don't stay within the confines of the media center application. It takes a lot more effort, and you have to know what you are doing, but the configurability and customizability can't be beat. The down side is that it is enough harder to use for some of the features that you might not want to leave it alone with your grandma. All these comparisons with a DVR apply pretty much equally with any program source. The difference is that a USB device for DTV will be much easier to integrate than cable cards. So DTV is a much more PC friendly solution than cable is.


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## CuriousMark

TyroneShoes said:


> In a perfect world content would be a la carte, and DVRs would be interchangeable, system-agnostic. It's not a perfect world. Top FCC commish Kevin Martin understands and is fighting for the first concept, and I hope he's smart enough to begin to grasp the importance of the second concept.


Toward a more perfect world! Cheers!


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## sjberra

CuriousMark said:


> This is one more configuration to compare against the other DVRs, and I think a few fair comparisons could be made.
> 
> I believe DTV is working to support media center PCs now with a USB receiver. A media center gives you most of the things a full up TiVo does if you count using the web on your TV as an option and don't stay within the confines of the media center application. It takes a lot more effort, and you have to know what you are doing, but the configurability and customizability can't be beat. The down side is that it is enough harder to use for some of the features that you might not want to leave it alone with your grandma. All these comparisons with a DVR apply pretty much equally with any program source. The difference is that a USB device for DTV will be much easier to integrate than cable cards. So DTV is a much more PC friendly solution than cable is.


We have different requirements of Media Center support - interface through a low speed USB port is not the method of choice, I am not a big supports of the low speed USB ports. Direct utilization of up to 4 tuners in the box would be the preferable method.

Right now at work I run a limited interface to the Media Center boxes, it works but it leaves a lot to be desired. have a Media center box running on a VMware ESX virtual server that has a fiber connection to a mid range NetApps SAN that holds the video, then there are 10 Media Center PC's out in the various interface closets, each of these have 3 tuner cards in them that are strictly there for the directv recievers that are plugged in via the S-Video ports (we can record all 3 streams at once), these are then spread out to 3 linksys DMA 2200 Media Extenders registered to each unit that drive a standard flat screen and a projector. These are cabled via Cat 6 and baluns. Getting ready to roll out 16 more Media center PC's for the new construction that is finishing up. At home I run a smaller version of what is running at work.

Granted this is not a normal configuration either at work or at home, but direct support of the newer media center features would be a space saver and a lot less of a issue on the technical side of things.

Not sure what the fate of the HDPC unit is going to be, the gold release of FIJI was supposed to have full directv HD support in it, but MS pulled it before release and made the drop of FIJI OEM only - no retail level sales, at least last this is what is coming out of Redmond right now.

Bottom line here is if direct interfacing and support for Media center PC ever comes about, would junk all my directv recievers. The USB interface would take a lot of testing before it would be deemed a suitable replacment, and that would take a lot - as mentioned earlier, I am not a big supporter of USB devices, they work fine for low bandwidth devices, but leave a lot to be desired in the devices that require high bandwidth.


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## fasTLane

TiVo from DirecTV will never happen, huh?


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## 20TIL6




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## BlackBetty




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## BlankMan

Looks like a lot of Crow is about to be consumed.

http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/art....jsp?id=504621

EL SEGUNDO and ALVISO, Calif., Sept. 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- DIRECTV, Inc. (Nasdaq: DTV), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, and TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), announced today that they have extended their current agreement, which includes the development, marketing and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo(R) service, as well as the extension of mutual intellectual property arrangements.

Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo(R) service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone. TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009.

DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. This new TiVo box will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services.

"We have had a very successful history with DIRECTV. Together we brought the TiVo experience to millions of DIRECTV customers and now we look forward to launching a next generation product that uses TiVo's latest features to truly showcase DIRECTV's broad selection of high-definition programming -- all stitched together with the elegance of TiVo's renowned user experience," said Tom Rogers, TiVo's CEO and president. "This agreement demonstrates our continued embrace of mass distribution opportunities in cooperation with major multichannel operators who recognize the value of giving their customers a choice of compelling user experiences."

Like prior products developed by TiVo and DIRECTV, the new HD offering will be marketed and sold by DIRECTV nationally to its entire customer base as part of its growing portfolio of brand name video offerings. Specific consumer pricing and packaging will be announced in conjunction with DIRECTV's launch of the product.

"As the industry's content and technology leader, DIRECTV has a long-standing reputation for developing innovative, advanced products and services, including our highly successful series of DVRs and HD DVRs," said Chase Carey, president and CEO, DIRECTV, Inc. "We will continue to work with TiVo and make this new product available to all new and existing DIRECTV customers who may want to add TiVo on top of our industry leading experience."

DIRECTV and TiVo began their relationship in 2000 with the launch of the first DIRECTV DVR with TiVo service. In April 2006, the companies announced an extension of their commercial and advertising relationship and those commercial and advertising capabilities are further extended, and now include the new HD platform. DIRECTV and TiVo also recently deployed a software update to existing DIRECTV with TiVo boxes, which enables new features like DIRECTV's Remote Booking.

Financial terms of the deal were not disclosed.

About DIRECTV, Inc.

DIRECTV, Inc. (NASDAQ: DTV), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, presents the finest television experience available to more than 17.1 million customers in the United States and is leading the HD revolution with more than 130 HD channels -- more quality HD channels than any other television provider. Each day, DIRECTV subscribers enjoy access to over 265 channels of 100% digital picture and sound, exclusive programming, industry-leading customer satisfaction (which has surpassed all national cable companies for eight years running) and superior technologies that include advanced DVR and HD-DVR services and the most state-of-the-art interactive sports packages available anywhere. For the most up-to-date information on DIRECTV, please visit directv.com.

About TiVo Inc

Founded in 1997, TiVo (NASDAQ: TIVO) pioneered a brand new category of products with the development of the first commercially available digital video recorder (DVR). Sold through leading consumer electronic retailers, TiVo has developed a brand which resonates boldly with consumers as providing a superior television experience. Through agreements with leading satellite and cable providers, TiVo also integrates its DVR service features into the set-top boxes of mass distributors. TiVo's DVR functionality and ease of use, with such features as Season Pass(R) recordings, WishList(R) searches, and TiVo KidZone, have elevated its popularity among consumers and have created a whole new way for viewers to watch television. With a continued investment in its patented technologies, TiVo is revolutionizing the way consumers watch and access home entertainment. Rapidly becoming the focal point of the digital living room, TiVo's DVR is at the center of experiencing new forms of content on the TV, such as broadband delivered video, music and photos. With innovative features such as TiVoToGo(TM) and online scheduling, TiVo is expanding the notion of consumers experiencing "TiVo, TV your way.(R)" The TiVo(R) service is also at the forefront of providing innovative marketing solutions for the television industry, including the Stop||Watch(TM) commercial and program rankings service, a unique platform for advertisers and media companies. The Company is based in Alviso, California.

TiVo, the TiVo logo, Season Pass, WishList, Swivel, Stop||Watch, TiVoToGo, and 'TiVo, TV your way.' are trademarks or registered trademarks of TiVo Inc. or its subsidiaries worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

This release contains certain forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements relate to, among other things, the timing and nature of future development and distribution of DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service, the future availability of interactive advertising capabilities and future negotiations between TiVo and DIRECTV on other product initiatives. Forward-looking statements generally can be identified by the use of forward-looking terminology such as, "believe," "expect," "may," "will," "intend," "estimate," "continue," or similar expressions or the negative of those terms or expressions. Such statements involve risks and uncertainties, which could cause actual results to vary materially from those expressed in or indicated by the forward-looking statements. Factors that may cause actual results to differ materially include delays in development, competitive service offerings and lack of market acceptance, as well as the other potential factors described under "Risk Factors" in DIRECTV's public reports and TiVo's public reports, including each company's most recent Annual Report on Form 10-K and subsequent current and quarterly reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Each of DIRECTV and TiVo cautions you not to place undue reliance on forward-looking statements, which reflect an analysis only and speak only as of the date hereof. Each of DIRECTV and TiVo disclaim any obligation to update these forward-looking statements.

SOURCE TiVo Inc.


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## BlackBetty

TonyTheTiger said:


> I don't care if you got a call from the POTUS, it ain't gonna happen. If you think you're the first to have these delusions, think again.
> 
> We see a post like this about once every other week. What makes yours any different?
> 
> You set the time period and I'll put up $100 against whatever you want that it will not happen.


LOL good thing you didn't put up that $100.


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## TonyTheTiger

BlackBetty said:


> LOL good thing you didn't put up that $100.


I'd pay it happily.

I'm delighted that it has happened. I will be first in line.

Very surprised - and playing snowball fights down here!


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## 20TIL6

BlackBetty said:


>


Ahhh, lemmings rejoice!!!!


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## BlankMan

TonyTheTiger said:


> Oh no, not again!


Any time you want to apologize is fine with me...


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## BlankMan

madbeachcat said:


> That ship has sailed. I do not beleive DirecTv would ever go back. There is no reason for them too.


Any further comments?


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## BlankMan

mr.unnatural said:


> All the phone calls and e-mails to the CEO of DirecTV isn't going to change their minds on this issue unless you get literally millions of subscribers to support it.
> 
> Keep in mind that DVR users make up only a small portion of DirecTV's subscriber base and you'll finally come to grips with the reality that going back to a Tivo DVR with DirecTV ain't gonna happen so live with it.
> 
> The only way you'll ever convince DirecTV that leaving Tivo was a bad choice is to start hitting them where it hurts - in the pocketbook.


Oh really?


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## BlankMan

mr.unnatural said:


> Nothing like a thread that turns into another pi$$ing contest over a topic that is long dead and won't ever come to pass, regardless of how much you ***** and whine about it. Give it a rest already. The topic doesn't need to be revived on a weekly basis.


 Resurrection can happen I guess, eh?


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## BlankMan

magnum68 said:


> Give it up! Like someone posted earlier, that ship has sailed. Give it up!


Ah, you were saying??


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## BlankMan

TyroneShoes said:


> Do you really think that's hard for folks to understand? Other than to a few of the larger few who still haunt this forum, I think it could not be more simple. Maybe it's hard to grasp, maybe not. But I just don't see how it has any real importance, making THAT the real moot (or "mute" [sic]) point.
> 
> IOW, you can't compare DVR's in a vacuum and come up with enough useful information about which vendor to cast your lot with, period. ,,,.


TiVo has dual buffers, DirecTV doesn't. DirecTV's buffer is 90 minutes TiVo's is ~45. TiVo offers it's Guide and DirecTV's Guide, DirecTV only offers it's Guide. Etc.

You compare the operation and features that each DVR has or doesn't have. This is not comparing in a vacuum, it's comparing features, programming does not enter into it when comparing features.


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## TonyTheTiger

BlankMan said:


> Any time you want to apologize is fine with me...


For what?

I never said I didn't WANT TiVo back, just that I didn't think it would happen. I sure am glad I was wrong there!

..and I certainly owe nothing to someone who is spending his entire day so far finding old posts (and even starting new ones) so he can gloat!

You even make it sound like YOU made it happen. All you succeeded in doing is creating a thread that brought out the same old people making the same old stale comments!


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## CuriousMark

> Toward a more perfect world! Cheers!


And here it comes!


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## Sir_winealot

TonyTheTiger said:


> For what?
> 
> I never said I didn't WANT TiVo back, just that I didn't think it would happen. I sure am glad I was wrong there!
> 
> ..and I certainly owe nothing to someone who is spending his entire day so far finding old posts (and even starting new ones) so he can gloat!
> 
> You even make it sound like YOU made it happen. All you succeeded in doing is creating a thread that brought out the same old people making the same old stale comments!


He's entitled to gloat. There were so many HR20 people here slamming TiVo folks because of their continued preference (the TiVo "lemmings," etc.) that I think he should gloat 'till the cows come home.


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## dslunceford

Agreed. I flipped out of DTV last year to FiOS because of TiVo...it's nice to know I'll have other options if I want to go back to DTV (have 13 months left on VZ committment).


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## TonyTheTiger

Sir_winealot said:


> He's entitled to gloat. There were so many HR20 people here slamming TiVo folks because of their continued preference (the TiVo "lemmings," etc.) that I think he should gloat 'till the cows come home.


I don't think there's a single person here who is upset about this news. Many (me included) had resigned themselves to the fact that it was extremely unlikely to happen, not that they didn't WANT it to happen.

Sadly, some on both sides of the argument, take it far too seriously - even to the extent of personal insults.

No, gracious in victory and gracious in defeat (not that it was a war anyway!).


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## BlankMan

TonyTheTiger said:


> I don't think there's a single person here who is upset about this news. Many (me included) had resigned themselves to the fact that it was extremely unlikely to happen, not that they didn't WANT it to happen.
> 
> Sadly, some on both sides of the argument, take it far too seriously - even to the extent of personal insults.
> 
> No, gracious in victory and gracious in defeat (not that it was a war anyway!).


Thank you *Sir_winealot*, for all the sh*t I endured, d*mn straight I'm gonna gloat.

*TonyTheTiger* must suck to be wrong, eh? Never gonna happen, eh? ....


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## PJO1966

I haven't read the thread, just saw the press release. I guess since DirecTV is selling the unit themselves, there will be no pre-order thread to go horribly, horribly wrong.

I need to start watching the backlog of programming on my two HD DVRs so I can trade them in when the time comes.


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## Scooter

BlankMan said:


> Thank you *Sir_winealot*, for all the sh*t I endured, d*mn straight I'm gonna gloat.
> 
> *TonyTheTiger* must suck to be wrong, eh? Never gonna happen, eh? ....


My. God.

So many juvenile posts.


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## TonyTheTiger

BlankMan said:


> Thank you *Sir_winealot*, for all the sh*t I endured, d*mn straight I'm gonna gloat.
> 
> *TonyTheTiger* must suck to be wrong, eh? Never gonna happen, eh? ....


If this is going to degrade into a series of personal attacks, I'd be careful that my childish behavior didn't get me a ban!


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## BlankMan

Scooter said:


> My. God.
> 
> So many juvenile posts.





TonyTheTiger said:


> If this is going to degrade into a series of personal attacks, I'd be careful that my childish behavior didn't get me a ban!


So when I'm on the receiving end of all the negative and personal posts that's ok, but now that the roles are reversed that's not ok? Hum, people seem to be getting a little sensitive when they're on the other side.

Interesting double standard.


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## sdchrgrboy

TonyTheTiger said:


> For what?
> 
> I never said I didn't WANT TiVo back, just that I didn't think it would happen. I sure am glad I was wrong there!
> 
> ..and I certainly owe nothing to someone who is spending his entire day so far finding old posts (and even starting new ones) so he can gloat!
> 
> You even make it sound like YOU made it happen. All you succeeded in doing is creating a thread that brought out the same old people making the same old stale comments!


Actually you said it WON'T happen. Be a man and admit you were wrong


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## BlankMan

sdchrgrboy said:


> Actually you said it WON'T happen. Be a man and admit you were wrong


Actually he said _ain't_. 



TonyTheTiger said:


> I don't care if you got a call from the POTUS, it ain't gonna happen.


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## TonyTheTiger

BlankMan said:


> So when I'm on the receiving end of all the negative and personal posts that's ok, but now that the roles are reversed that's not ok? Hum, people seem to be getting a little sensitive when they're on the other side.
> 
> Interesting double standard.


No double standards at all. I have tried to discuss things with you in the past and all you seem to be able to do is reduce them to silly name-calling and petty arguments, just like you're doing here!

At NO point have you been personally attacked. Your ideals were - when you called me a troll, remember? AND when you tried to go through my old posts to find "examples" to back up your bile. I have neither the time nor the inclination to go back and look it up, but you know it's there - and I have no doubt you DO have the time to find it and mis-quote it yet again.

You, sir, are the very definition of the word "troll".

Now, this is a happy day with good news. Let's ALL enjoy it without the childishness you're bringing into the conversation, OK?


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## TonyTheTiger

sdchrgrboy said:


> Actually you said it WON'T happen. Be a man and admit you were wrong


I already did!


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## BlankMan

TonyTheTiger said:


> No double standards at all. I have tried to discuss things with you in the past and all you seem to be able to do is reduce them to silly name-calling and petty arguments, just like you're doing here!
> 
> At NO point have you been personally attacked. Your ideals were - when you called me a troll, remember? AND when you tried to go through my old posts to find "examples" to back up your bile. I have neither the time nor the inclination to go back and look it up, but you know it's there - and I have no doubt you DO have the time to find it and mis-quote it yet again.
> 
> You, sir, are the very definition of the word "troll".
> 
> Now, this is a happy day with good news. Let's ALL enjoy it without the childishness you're bringing into the conversation, OK?





TonyTheTiger said:


> Oh no, not again!


Let's see, who took the first shot, suggesting I'm having delusions....



TonyTheTiger said:


> I don't care if you got a call from the POTUS, it ain't gonna happen. If you think you're the first to have these delusions, think again.
> 
> We see a post like this about once every other week. What makes yours any different?
> 
> You set the time period and I'll put up $100 against whatever you want that it will not happen.


Never called you a troll. Show me where I said you were a troll. I might have expressed an opinion that you seemed to be stirring things up, but I thought it's ok to have opinions and express them here. No?


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## TonyTheTiger

BlankMan said:


> ~
> 
> Ahhhh.... I just noticed your moniker _Pro Troll Magnet_ I don't think you're acting like the magnet in this case though.


I guess this doesn't count?


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## BlankMan

TonyTheTiger said:


> I guess this doesn't count?


Like I said, it appeared to me that you were stirring things up, that was my opinion, I could have been wrong, but that's the way I took it.


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## direfan

Scooter said:


> My. God.
> 
> So many juvenile posts.


So did you follow the thread early on? Does not look like you did?

Blankman has every reason to gloat. I don't think there was any think juvenile about it. Some of the things that Tony guy posted was ridiculous and were totally unprovoked.


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## sjberra

BlankMan said:


> Thank you *Sir_winealot*, for all the sh*t I endured, d*mn straight I'm gonna gloat.
> 
> *TonyTheTiger* must suck to be wrong, eh? Never gonna happen, eh? ....


depends - in my case - bottom line is I DON"T CARE IF IT IS the almighty TIVO application GUI, the DirectTV GUI or a drunk monkey with a super 8 video camera. When they stop offering the content that myself and my family want then I will walk away from Directv. Intersting point though - there is no explination of exactly what TIVO functionality they will allow on the devices, at this point if can be speculated that it will be full functionality, or it can be the same level of functionality that is currently supplied in the HR10 series with MPEG4 capablities.

Personally will wait and see what and when it hits the streets, might be the same results as the HTPC box that Microsoft and Directv are colaberating on. BTW vulgarity does nothing to enhance your point, nice job of bypassing the language filter


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## TonyTheTiger

direfan said:


> So did you follow the thread early on? Does not look like you did?
> 
> Blankman has every reason to gloat. I don't think there was any think juvenile about it. Some of the things that Tony guy posted was *ridiculous and were totally unprovoked*.


O.......K.

So sad.


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## BlankMan

sjberra said:


> BTW vulgarity does nothing to enhance your point, nice job of bypassing the language filter


I know, just venting, after all the attacks, personal and otherwise I took.

It was just such a useless cause...


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## bacevedo

BlankMan - as someone who is sitting on the sidelines watching, you are making yourself look like a fool. 

Just be happy that it is happening. No need to gloat. Have some class and take the high road. These posts make you seem like a bitter and vengenful man. There are much better things to do then go and find everyone who has "wronged" you so you can rub it in their face.


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## direfan

TonyTheTiger said:


> O.......K.
> 
> So sad.


Isn't it?


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## TonyTheTiger

bacevedo said:


> BlankMan - as someone who is sitting on the sidelines watching, you are making yourself look like a fool.
> 
> Just be happy that it is happening. No need to gloat. Have some class and take the high road. These posts make you seem like a bitter and vengenful man. There are much better things to do then go and find everyone who has "wronged" you so you can rub it in their face.


Well said!

Others may want to heed this advice instead of attempting to provoke, too!


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## BlankMan

bacevedo said:


> BlankMan - as someone who is sitting on the sidelines watching, you are making yourself look like a fool.
> 
> Just be happy that it is happening. No need to gloat. Have some class and take the high road. These posts make you seem like a bitter and vengenful man. There are much better things to do then go and find everyone who has "wronged" you so you can rub it in their face.


I do agree with you. But after taking weeks of harassment I could not resist rubbing their face in it a bit. I know I stooped to their level.

I would have been ok if it hadn't been for all the name calling and get a life etc. If they would have stuck to the thread topic and not made it personal.


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## BlankMan

Woo-hoo broke the 70% mark.

Renewed interest is helping.


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## BlackBetty

I would like to personally thank you BlankMan for your efforts on the TCF forums. Its people like you that cause change. 

Continue to gloat as much as you want. Its well deserved!


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## fasTLane

And a vote of _thanks_ to all those who held out by saying 'no way' to the repeated phone calls of 'upgrade or else'.

That must have helped.


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## eddyj

So orget the bickering and let's get to the real important information...


Where do I sign up for the Beta?


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