# Battlestar Galactic "Lay Down Your Burdens" 3/10/06



## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

So, everybody still stunned by the last half hour? Is that why I'm able to start this thread?


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

Wow, just wow...


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## ovr8ted (Feb 27, 2005)




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## prefect42 (Sep 10, 2001)

Once again it proves why it is one of the best shows out there. To quote Todd, Wow, just wow


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## ogden2k (Jun 5, 2004)

I really hope that the last 30 minutes was just Baltar dreaming... What's this talk about BSG moving to NBC...?


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

It's funny, I actually read the spoilers out there for the episode, and thought "wow, that's cheesey" but watching it, it came together great. :up:


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

My hope is that they've responded to the realization that the show hasn't been going anywhere by setting up a new direction for the show.

My fear is that they've responded to the realization that the show hasn't been going anywhere by setting up a static status quo that they can mantain indefinitely.


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

ogden2k said:


> I really hope that the last 30 minutes was just Baltar dreaming...


Maybe he'll step out of the shower at the begining of next season...


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Who was that that came into the tent to see Sam? I didn't recognize him.


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

Step out of the shower with three cuties, perhaps.

So was the whole thing a setup by the Cylons? Stupid humans.


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## jimmymac (Nov 6, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> Who was that that came into the tent to see Sam? I didn't recognize him.


Wasn't he the cylon who Kara interrogated and was let out the airlock?

Damn.


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## flyers088 (Apr 19, 2005)

jimmymac said:


> Wasn't he the cylon who Kara interrogated and was let out the airlock?
> 
> Damn.


I think it was Leoben


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

The Cylons said they found New Caprica by detecting a nuclear explosion.

But, that was a year before....

So, have they been watching them for a year, or can radiation hang around like that in space, for a year?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

jimmymac said:


> Wasn't he the cylon who Kara interrogated and was let out the airlock?


I thought it might be, but why would he come to see Sam? Oh, wait, I remember. He asked to see Kara. Oh snap. Somebody wants revenge. 

How tricky of Tortured 6 to detonate the nuke as a beacon.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

I don't even know what to think of that. RDM warned us (in the blog and commentary) it would be different but that last 30 minutes... that is really something. Part of me hopes that it is a dream of Baltar's but this other part of me, knows that it isn't.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

7thton said:


> The Cylons said they found New Caprica by detecting a nuclear explosion.
> 
> But, that was a year before....
> 
> So, have they been watching them for a year, or can radiation hang around like that in space, for a year?


Well. They said they were a light-year away when they detected the radiation signature of a nuclear detonation. It took one year for the blast to reach their eyes. So, basically, the cylons saw the actual explosion, not lingering radiation.


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## flyers088 (Apr 19, 2005)

I agree with RDM that this finale is taking a great risk (if it is not a 'Dallas' dream) but the excution was transparent. There was nothing they did in the last half hour that you could not see coming.


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## Topher5000 (Jan 2, 2006)

At first, I wasn't too thrilled with the year later stuff, but it'll work, I suppose.
I was wondering about the dude looking for Kara, also. I don't think that it was the guy they let out of the airlock, but I've been known to be wrong before.
I'm also surprised that Baltar lasted a year in presidency, given how he was to run it.
Kara with long hair... mmm...mmm...mmm...toasty!
I hope Bill Adama shaves.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

I wonder what happened between Lee and Kara. They made it sound unforgivable. Perhaps it was her decision to leave fleet life behind and move down to the planet.


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

As for my initial impression, I liked the way the episode ended up plot wise, but the last 30 minutes sure seemed rushed. This should really have been a 2 hour episode, so that life on New Caprica could be flushed out a bit more and life on Galactica/Pegasus could be explored more as well.

And Adama with the porno 'stash?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

It had the feel of the last half hour being tacked on to the one hour finale; like someone previewed the finale and said "you know, same old same old, you need to do something different if you expect anyone to care anymore."

We'll see how it goes next season; I really don't feel any level of anticipation, though. It'll just be something I watch like all the other stuff I watch.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Why did the Cylon baby, who is now over a year old, look only to be about 6 months old? Is it just their secret to youthful good looks (Dean Stockwell notwithstanding)?


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## Topher5000 (Jan 2, 2006)

That was a great line! Edit: Dean Stockwell's line - I don't know how to spoilerize it, so I'm deleting it.


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

Topher5000 said:


> That was a great line! Dean Stockwell saying "I'm not a Cylon! Well, in that case..."


+1


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

But I thought the Cylons were going to leave mankind alone. Or is this bunch a different faction?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Topher5000 said:


> That was a great line! Edit: Dean Stockwell's line - I don't know how to spoilerize it, so I'm deleting it.


No need for spoiler tags in this thread per forum rules.


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## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

WOWZA what a show! We have to wait till October WAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!


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## starryheart2 (Mar 11, 2006)

I loved it, but have to agree with most of you - 

The last 30 min should have been an hour - 

we lost a LOT in that missed year! 

October, hurry up!!


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## starryheart2 (Mar 11, 2006)

Mike Farrington said:


> No need for spoiler tags in this thread per forum rules.


Please explain, what is a Spoiler Tag?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Below is a spoiler tag. It hides the text within. You must highlight the area with your mouse to see the text within. This prevents people from accidently reading something they don't want to.



Spoiler



This text is contained within a spoiler tag.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Damn...that Baltar is the death of humanity, AGAIN!! What the hell was he thinking he gave PegasusSix the nuke?!?!

What's with all the civilian ship orbiting New Caprica? Can't they be landed on the surface to use as indoor housing?

Once again, I have to complain about a civilization that has FTL, but can't cure cancer nor replicate basic medicine. All you need are chickens to make antibotics!!


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## TheSlyBear (Dec 26, 2002)

I'm feeling that the 'one year later' is a Baltar vision that he will snap out of in October.

Dean Stockwell was great -- loved his delivery!


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

dswallow said:


> It had the feel of the last half hour being tacked on to the one hour finale; like someone previewed the finale and said "you know, same old same old, you need to do something different if you expect anyone to care anymore."


Or maybe they said "you know, we need a way to kill off (or render irrelevent) certain characters, and reset the story to square one --so we can move it to NBC"?  :down:


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

WTH was that? Where are they going from here? It appeared that the human sympathetic Caprica 6 and Boomer were the ones that came in. Maybe the regular Cylons are leaving the humans alone but the sympathetic ones still want to interfere?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

For the first few minutes, I thought that the extraction sent to Caprica must have beenn captured and this is all planted visions. But I soon got over that since we are seeing multiple POVs.

So. Chief and Callie did the deed.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

dtle said:


> What's with all the civilian ship orbiting New Caprica? Can't they be landed on the surface to use as indoor housing?


It's certainly conceivable that not all of the ships were designed to land.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

dtle said:


> Once again, I have to complain about a civilization that has FTL, but can't cure cancer nor replicate basic medicine. All you need are chickens to make antibotics!!


Remember this isn't their full civilization, just whatever they happened to have on-board their ships at the time of the original attack. Even if they have access to all the technical documentation for all their medicines, they'd still have a hard time manufacturing them without their industrial base.

BTW, did you _see_ any chickens aboard Galactica? Unless they happened to have a livestock hauler in the fleet, they probably don't have any live animals left from their homeworlds. Chances are that the local wildlife can be digested if it's cooked well enough (or else they wouldn't have been able to live there), but as far creating compatible antibodies...


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned how cool the explosion was... how we saw part of the ship crack against a window... that was really well done.

I had kind of guessed that Dean Stockwell would turn out to be a Cylon based on last week's podcast. People would get their panties in a bunch whenever someone would suggest that Ellen was a Cylon because she was too old. I guess anything is possible now as far as the ages of the Cylons. I'm wondering if Dean Stockwell is a number 1 model.

Honestly, I really hope this is all a dream, but I don't think it is... as was pointed out, there were too many points of view. I hope this isn't their Galactica 1980 move.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> WTH was that? Where are they going from here? It appeared that the human sympathetic Caprica 6 and Boomer were the ones that came in. Maybe the regular Cylons are leaving the humans alone but the sympathetic ones still want to interfere?


Most likely they're the ones who convinced the others not to bomb the settlement from orbit. I'd say that their "first among equals" status has solidified into actual leadership, or at least they have enough clout (and trust) to be picked as ambassadors. I bet that that Doral(?) was one of the field agents as well, either the one from the pilot or the suicide bomber.


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## pudding7 (May 13, 2002)

I never post here, but to echo the start of the thread...

Wow. Just... wow. Best show on TV.

/although, I would have at least built a log cabin.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned how cool the explosion was... how we saw part of the ship crack against a window... that was really well done.


That was a nice touch.

I was starting to think the show had jumped the shark there for the last 25 minutes. At least the 5 minutes made up for that but I'm not so sure I like this "new direction" (if, in fact, that's what it is).

Anyone else thinking "evil twin" when EJO showed up with the 'stache?


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I don't know how I feel about the whole episode except to say there was enough there for a couple of more episodes and we wouldn't have had to deal with the weaker, "stand-alone" episodes in the middle of the season.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

dtle said:


> Damn...that Baltar is the death of humanity, AGAIN!! What the hell was he thinking he gave PegasusSix the nuke?!?!


Or why he didn't ask for it back when he became president. I foresaw the blast attracting the cylons before they showed up, do you think that's why the six did it?

The reset lets the storyline better match the original series - Baltar with the Cylons chasing Galactica and its fleet.

Was that a raptor that Starbuck was in when the cylons showed up? Did she escape with the rest of the fleet? Edit: Nevermind, I hadn't seen the final coda at the end.


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## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

What was the very last bit? My recording cut off just as Baltar looked towards the camera after his visitors told him that they had detected the nuclear explosion.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

vman41 said:


> Or why he didn't ask for it back when he became president. I foresaw the blast attracting the cylons before they showed up, do you think that's why the six did it?


Wow, I certainly didn't see it, you must be a cylon  Actually, I'm not even sure that a single nuke blast would be detectable from a light-year away, especially with the surrounding nebula obscuring things...?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> So. Chief and Callie did the deed.


He couldn't decide whether to knock her out or up.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Topher5000 said:


> I hope Bill Adama shaves.


It's a joke, son. Thinking that out is left as an exercise for the interested student.


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## net114 (Dec 29, 2000)

I was not for the "one year later" storyline at ALL.... I will echo others who think to much is lost in a year to jump the story forward. That said, by the end I was also sitting with chin on floor.... wow is right. Damn, just let it run all year long! Why have show breaks anyway? Make those actors earn those bucks!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Did anyone else think they made Lee look like his dad? He looked a little ...puffy, I guess, in the face. Kind of subtle. I don't know if that was real or my mind making it up...


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## someToast (Aug 14, 2000)

zync said:


> What was the very last bit? My recording cut off just as Baltar looked towards the camera after his visitors told him that they had detected the nuclear explosion.


Same here, but just as the Chief was asking Starbuck "what now?"

I guess my television standards are lower -- I thought this episode was fantastic and want the new season to start, oh, tomorrow.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

zync said:


> What was the very last bit? My recording cut off just as Baltar looked towards the camera after his visitors told him that they had detected the nuclear explosion.


Yeah, I had some weirdness on my DTivo in Cali. My 7 pm recording was listed as "partial" being only 1:29 minutes long. When I saw that, I had my DTivo record the 10:32 pm one as well and pad it to start early and end late. When I watched the 7 pm all the way thru, it got cut off a few minutes before the end.  Luckily, the padded 10:32 showing was fine and I caught the ending.

Perhaps this a bug due to a last minute schedule change or something along those lines. In the EPG, it does show the 7 pm showing ending at 8:32 pm. 

Sounds like I'm not the only one. At least it'll be rerun again on Monday.

Anyhow, wow, what a crazy ep! I really do wonder if it was all a dream, some alternate timeline where they'll hit the reset button like they did so much in Enterprise and Voyager.


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## DLL66 (Oct 21, 2002)

October! It is going to be a long 7 months!!


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

hefe said:


> Did anyone else think they made Lee look like his dad? He looked a little ...puffy, I guess, in the face. Kind of subtle.


Not too subtle according to my small group of watchers.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

Well in 1 episode we can end those silly best show on TV or best scifi show ever. No good show ever backs themselves so far in the corner they have to hit the reset button. The last season has been a complete waste now. There is not move to NBC for crying out loud the show has been slipping in the ratings all season 2.5 look for your self. This kind of crap only happens when you don't plan your show a head of time. I think the comparisons to andomeda can begin a show that had a great 2.5 seasons but fell off after that. I know most of you will deny it like all fan bases when a show first starts to fall off it takes a season or 2 for even the most die hard to finally admit something is wrong. I really miss great episodes like 33 and other ones before the pegasus showed up.

There was more plot holes in this season finale than in a season of xena and hercules combined. What the hell happened to one of the better shows on TV in such a short period of time.


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## Greg K. (Jun 28, 2005)

It certainly wasn't a perfect episode. The subplot about the election fraud ended up being completely pointless, since Baltar excused it and then they jumped ahead a year - they might as well have just eliminated that part completely.

But, wow, that last half hour or so really threw things for a loop, didn't they. One thing for sure, they're not afraid to take chances. It's difficult to see how they'll be able to continue next season and still have it feel like the same show.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

someToast said:


> I guess my television standards are lower -- I thought this episode was fantastic and want the new season to start, oh, tomorrow.


Ditto here. Everybody was griping that the show wasn't moving the story forward. Well, now they've made a GIANT leap forward and guess what? The same people are *****ing.

To me this episode proves this is still the best sci-fi show currently on TV. If you don't agree then name which one is better...

....waiting....waiting....

Right, there isn't one!


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

Greg K. said:


> . It's difficult to see how they'll be able to continue next season and still have it feel like the same show.


They can't that is the point of hitting the reset button. They ran out of ideas for the current format so they hit the reset button so they can start fresh with a new format. It makes me sad when a scifi show goes down the tubes because there is so little scifi out there. Hell I watched andomeda to the bitter end just because it was scifi. The best way to wash the bitter taste out of my mouth is to watch my B5 DVDs.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

appleye1 said:


> Ditto here. Everybody was griping that the show wasn't moving the story forward. Well, now they've made a GIANT leap forward and guess what? The same people are *****ing.
> 
> To me this episode proves this is still the best sci-fi show currently on TV. If you don't agree then name which one is better...
> 
> ...


No story went forward at all they were all ended in 1 night. Every single outstanding storyline was ended so they could start over. Pushing the reset button does not equal moving the storylines forward.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

I don't see this finale as a reset at all. Just another major defeat for humankind. There are still many questions to be answered. What of the Cylon Heroes? Whats to become of this hybrid baby and where are Helo and Sharon? Most of season 3 will probably center around Adama mounting an offensive to rescue as many humans as possible and Starbuck and company plotting an escape. Then on to Earth.

No second term for Baltar. Impeachment maybe?

Still the best show on TV. Nothing even close right now. (except maybe lost)


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

I thought I saw in the barrage of self promos while watching Sci-Fi that Rosalyn told Richard Hatch that Baltar was working with the cylons, but as it ran in this episode, she was talking to Adama. I don't get the reason for deception, they should have never had it in the promos.

When does Baltar get his own ship, like in the OS?

I can't believe after a full year of having suspicions of Baltar working with the toasters that an investigation wasn't run to validate it.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Narkul said:


> [...]where are Helo and Sharon?


Helo was on the bridge of the Galactica. Sharon might still have been on board, I can't say. Maybe she was still living in the brig.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

So the priest Cylon says the Heroes convinced all the other Cylons to stop chasing the humans, and a year later the Heroes show up to accept the humans surrender. hmm...


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

appleye1 said:


> To me this episode proves this is still the best sci-fi show currently on TV. If you don't agree then name which one is better...


Dr. Who.

Maybe even Life on Mars (though it's arguably not quite science fiction, I guess ).

Anyway, it's obviously not like there's a lot of current shows in this genre.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> Helo was on the bridge of the Galactica. Sharon might still have been on board, I can't say. Maybe she was still living in the brig.


Maybe Sharon and the Preacher Twins went out the airlock. It would fit with the Colonials' attitudes towards Cylons, and it's not like they can't be replaced. 

On the other hand, one hopes they're not finished with the Boomer/baby storyline (since nothing has really come of it yet), and since it's specific to that one iteration of the 8 series, who probably couldn't be resurrected, I suppose it's more likely that she at least is still alive.


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## bv1187 (Apr 16, 2004)

I agree with ya they've dragged that storyline out far enough. While I enjoy the heck out of this series, the fact that no one has caught on to the Vice president's dillusions is a little insulting.


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## ovr8ted (Feb 27, 2005)

Getting back to that resurrection stuff, that plot device sort of fizzled too, didn't it? I'm a little upset looking back at this season that they actually had some great ideas and twists, but then let most of them just fade away.

The election storyline was a bit useless, other than to bring to the forefront that Baltar was working "with" the cylons. Now two people know, that's twice as many!!!

From the looks of the planet, I can't believe the people didn't say "Frak this, let's get back on the ships and find Earth." 


On a positive note:

This ep really stirred the pot. We do have a bunch of new questions, mostly of course WHERE IS THIS TRAIN GOING? We are all hoping it is not a wreck. Interesting that Lee now seems to be the voice of reason, not his dad. And how come D. seemed to be the only character that actually looked better since the fleet landed? Anyone else pick up on that? Everyone seemed tatterred and torn, unshaven, grumpy, sick, out of shape, etc. except D. Hmmmmm.


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

First hour :up: 
Last .5 hour :down: 

I don't know, I feel kind of cheated in a sense. It's like we have been going all along all season and then at the finale they do this type of thing which says "Sorry we didn't know where this was going, let's start back fresh"

One thing that I think they can use, but might not have intended was that maybe they were using Baltar all along to get them to settle on that planet. Maybe for 2 seasons they were using him in ways to make this happen.

I also appreciated that the people were living in tent cities. I would have thought the show would have people in houses, building, etc in less than a year which is pretty infeasable. Tent cities is way more realistic.

As far as next season goes, they have me hooked. Of course I am going to watch, but they have to do something to get me really excited about it.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

WOW!

I had not subjected myself to any potential spoilers and I didn't see the "flash forward one year" aspect coming!

I disagree with almost all the *****ing about the writing in this show (pace is too slow, writers are out of ideas, etc...).

IMHO, the writing on this show is some of the best I've seen on TV. If the rumors of a move to NBC are true (and I don't think they are) I'm afraid the excellent writing in this show would get watered down to the "eighth grade education" level that most broadcast network shows seem to target (with a handful of notable exceptions).

What I did find predictable (and darkly comic) was that Baltar's idea of how to be "president" was to spend his life in a drug/alcohol haze surrounded by bimbos!  :up:


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## cheerdude (Feb 27, 2001)

I need to catch up a bit... last one that I saw was the one prior to Resurrection Ship


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> What I did find predictable (and darkly comic) was that Baltar's idea of how to be "president" was to spend his life in a drug/alcohol haze surrounded by bimbos!  :up:


It made me rethink my aversion to a political career.


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## michad (Sep 9, 2002)

loved it. best. show. ever.

I trust RDM.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

I have very mixed feelings about this episode. While I like the idea of FINALLY moving the story forward, the timing is just SO off. From previous episodes, we were informed that almost all of season 1 and 2 took place in about 10 months, and then suddenly one episode jumps a whole year. 

Also, why did no one on Caprica question where Dean Stockwell came from? He was not part of Starbuck's mission, and we had not seen him as one of Anders' resistance fighters. Suddenly a priest rises up in their midsts and starts praising the gods, and they don't blink? 

What happened to Richard Hatch's character immediately after the election? Was he on Cloud 9? Some exposition here would have been nice. I could have believed Hatch's character working for Baltar, but Mr. Gaeta? He seems too straight-laced to be working for a drug-hazed lothario .... 

And even if that didn't get me ... Starbuck and Tigh are buddies??? Happy to see each other??? My ... how things change in a year! 

I don't know why, but the the ending reminded me of A.I. Artificial Intelligence, where you could tell where Kubrick wanted to end the film, and could see where Spielberg took up the story and went in a different direction. I just want to know how much of what we saw in the 90 minutes was last-minute padding, because Sci-Fi asked Moore to extend the finale, and how much was originally planned? It'd be easy to think the last half-hour was added on last-minute, but maybe not. 

So what will the future hold? We've got the basis of a new resistance cell on Cylon Occupied New Caprica, with Starbuck, a sickly-Anders, Tyrol, a pregnant-Callie, Roslyn, Mr. Gaeta, and Tigh. Also on New Caprica are Sharon's baby, the reborn Sharon and Six, and we assume, the Cylon leadership. Up in space, we've got Adamas 1 and 2 with Helo and Dualla, but is there anyone else we care about up there? Unless next season starts with another time jump ("6 months earlier" or make up your own time jump), it seems to me a lot of the action will be centered on New Caprica. Or maybe several new characters on Galactica and Pegasus will be introduced. 

I'm not going to wet myself in anticipation of the new season. Instead, when it finally arrives in October, I'll just watch and hope for some explanation of what the frack has happened over the last "year".


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

drew2k said:


> Unless next season starts with another time jump ("6 months earlier" or make up your own time jump), it seems to me a lot of the action will be centered on New Caprica. Or maybe several new characters on Galactica and Pegasus will be introduced.


I'm really hoping that they stop using the time-jump motif. One of the reasons the 1st season was so intense was because of the linear aspect of the plot....things just keep inching forward....one event led to another....that's what they need to get back to, IMHO.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The one-year-later thing immediately made me think "How DC of them," which I know is unfair, but still...

(DC Comics just had a gimmick where their entire line jumped forward a year, and over the next few months we'll get filled in on what happened in the interim. The first few One Year Later books came out this past week.)


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

The make-up on Lee was really well done. It made his face look puffy and he resembled his father more.

Another interesting point... when did Tighe and Adama take up smoking? And Adama breaking off the filter... to speed up his own demise maybe? Interesting.

Was Starbuck pregnant as well? I thought it looked that way in a couple of shots.

I'm still floored. Time to watch it again, this time with the podcast.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Narkul said:


> I don't see this finale as a reset at all. Just another major defeat for humankind. There are still many questions to be answered.


I agree. I don't know why it has to be considered a "reset." Because they're not still running through space? So what? This is just another stop along the way. Does anyone believe they're on New Caprica for good?

People complain about the plot not moving forward as if they know what the plot progression _should _be. Well, that's the fun of it...we're not following an expected formula here. I say the plot did move forward, and it brought us here.


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## digdug (Jan 13, 2004)

What can I say? I was just floored by the entire episode, but especially the last 30 minutes. But something doesn't feel right here. I feel as if the whole 30 minutes where watched in the fog of major jet lag where things are said and done, but just don't make much sense. 

1. Kara's hair seemed way to long for just one year to have passed. 
2. Tigh and Adama smoking?
3. They're still living in tents but they've got unionized labor and strikes?
4. Roslyn is sitting back and just letting the new prez run their new colony like a party?
5. Dean Stockwell on Caprica? And no one blinks until he's on the Galactica
6. Etc, etc. 

It just seemed as though they were too settled in, like ten years had passed. People seemed to content ( except the union workers). Kara and other military folks have just given up the military life and regimen? Hard to believe. 

This all had a dreamy fog around it for me. I sincerely hope someone is dreaming here. I don't see the story going much of anywhere with New Caprica, especially under Baltar's leadership, which Roslyn seems to just accept. 

No antibiotics for 6 months? And people are so happy?


And Adama took the word of two Cylons that the Caprica occupation and space-chase had just ended because the Cylons felt they made mistakes? Something is just not right here.


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## TivoGeezer (Dec 3, 2003)

cheerdude said:


> I need to catch up a bit... last one that I saw was the one prior to Resurrection Ship


Bit torrent is your friend. I caught up on the first season, as I did not watch it and only started watching regularly in season 2.

My TiVo missed that last minute or so as well.


----------



## chewbaccad (Feb 16, 2005)

I can dig Kara with the long hair (much better), but EJO needs to lose the porno mustache!!

I had read the spoilers so I knew what was coming, but they pulled it off much better than I thought they would. I can't say that I'm thrilled, but I'm not entirely disappointed either. It's not a true reset, as it advances the story more than some of you are giving credit for. I think we're seeing Baltar's final step towards true collusion with the Cylons. Now who will join him, and who will resist... and will Baltar have his own BaseStar soon  

I think the problem some are having is that it didn't feel like a true cliffhanger, or maybe that's just me. The last couple of finales did. Adama getting shot, MAJOR cliffhanger. Pegasus standoff, predictable but a MAJOR cliffhanger. They went out with tension. This time around, just didn't feel like the episode ending carried the weight of the others. Still can't wait until October, but that's more because I love the show and not because I need to see immediate resolution.

My biggest issue was with who got split into which groups. Most of the characters we're interested in got left behind. Will Kat now be the "new" Starbuck, and so on and so forth... man, I hope not. 

Looking at that planet, I'd rather have stayed on a ship!! And I think Dean Stockwell is now my favorite Cylon character. He really pulled off his part well.

edit: stupid calendar...


----------



## Greg K. (Jun 28, 2005)

> which Roslyn seems to just accept.


I guess one thing the election fraud storyline does is make Roslyn unable to mount an effective opposition to Baltar. If she starts telling people he's working with the Cylons, he'd have her thrown in jail and silenced.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

chewbaccad said:


> Still can't wait until January, but that's more because I love the show and not because I need to see immediate resolution.


You mean October?

January has traditionally been the start of the 2nd half of new seasons that start in July, but the new season of BSG is starting in October this year, with the intention of having no mid-season break.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

digdug said:


> And Adama took the word of two Cylons that the Caprica occupation and space-chase had just ended because the Cylons felt they made mistakes? Something is just not right here.


You're definitely right that something is not right here, but Adama is one of the few that didn't take the word of the Cylons that the chase had ended. He was still keeping the vigil, despite the skeleton crew.

I definitely agree that if this was the direction they were going to go, this should have been two hours rather than 90 minutes. The last 30 min was probably intended to make the viewer feel like everything was rushed and leave our heads spinning, but it just didn't come off quite right.

I understand the majority of the people would be living in tents but I would have liked to have seen some evidence of building and infrastructure. The only thing that looked permanent was that frame structure that appeared to be a market.

Hopefully they have an idea where this is going and didn't just throw this in there to surprise everyone and then figured they had several months to work out what comes next.

My first TiVo cut off as Baltar was listening to the "Heroes of the Cylons" but I had another TiVo padded by a minute so I then watched that one and it cut off also. What happened after the toasters marched by and Kara and Tyrol were standing next to each other?


----------



## cheerdude (Feb 27, 2001)

TivoGeezer said:


> Bit torrent is your friend. I caught up on the first season, as I did not watch it and only started watching regularly in season 2.
> 
> My TiVo missed that last minute or so as well.


No.. not that - I've got the episodes patiently waiting for me on my TiVo. Justt need to take time and watch them...


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Why hasn't anyone *****ed that they had scenes from this episode in the pre-show credits? Including the scene of the Cloud 9 blowing up! I spend all this time trying to avoid spoilers and they say "ha ha, F you!"

Also, I like to read the spoilers on Ain't It Cool News after the episode airs. So last week I went back to the article on Part 1 of this episode and highlighted the spoilers and it said "The cylons offer to leave humanity alone if they give them six test subjects a year." So, even though it was wrong, I knew the Cylons weren't there to attack so I wasn't as enthralled by the last minutes of the show as I would've been. Spoilers really ruin stuff for me.

And the three Cylons in Baltar's office never said what they wanted. Baltar offered his surrender all on his own. I think there's a lot more to this story than just a basic occupation.


----------



## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

drew2k said:


> Also on New Caprica are Sharon's baby, the reborn Sharon and Six, and we assume, the Cylon leadership.


Was there a reference in the show indicating the reborn Sharon and Six were present?


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Awesome episode! Loved it, loved it, loved it. :up:

I read the criticisms in this thread but I'm just not buying them . They did not press a reset button, they pressed a fast forward button. We are obviously going to learn what happened during this year, like why Apollo and Starbuck's friendship ended, which was forshadowed when she was making out with Anders right in front of Apollo, ignoring her best friend.

We see that tortured Six was probably planning the nuke beacon ever since she was freed from her cell. Once again it's Baltar and Six at the center of a major Cylon vs. human confrontation. Man, this is good stuff.

Dean Stockwell was great, I look forward to seeing him in future episodes. Saul was sober! It looks like society is crumbling but now he seems to have it together, and it's Adama breaking the filter off cigarettes who seems to have a hard time coping. Lee wasn't looking too hot, either. So much to digest. I need to watch this again.

So where is the Cylons new home? Earth? Series finale the humans find Earth and are greeted by the Cylons.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Narkul said:


> Was there a reference in the show indicating the reborn Sharon and Six were present?


Did you miss the end of the show?


----------



## dnemec123 (Jan 25, 2004)

Listened to the podcast right after watching last night, and here's some spoiler information for next season:



Spoiler



1. Adama won't be back after the 3rd episode or so.
2. When the season starts in October, 5 years will have passed. The writers will then back-fill what happened in future episodes.
3. Dean Stockwell appears in the first couple of episodes. Sorry, no airlock this time.
4. It sounds like Roslyn gets the presidency back around the 3rd episode or so.


All subject to change, of course!


----------



## chewbaccad (Feb 16, 2005)

drew2k said:


> You mean October?
> 
> January has traditionally been the start of the 2nd half of new seasons that start in July, but the new season of BSG is starting in October this year, with the intention of having no mid-season break.


I meant Oct.... just a "duh" moment on my part


----------



## chewbaccad (Feb 16, 2005)

dnemec123 said:


> Listened to the podcast right after watching last night, and here's some spoiler information for next season:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, there goes my favorite show... 

I'm willing to give RDM the benefit of the doubt and won't poo-poo anything until I've seen it, but #'s 1 and 2 don't make me happy.



Spoiler



Heck, #2 sounds like it's going to a Lost format.


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

vman41 said:


> So the priest Cylon says the Heroes convinced all the other Cylons to stop chasing the humans, and a year later the Heroes show up to accept the humans surrender. hmm...


Why does everyone seems to think that the Cylons showed up to conquer the humans? They never said as such, only mentioning that humans need to listen to them. I think Baltar was premature in surrending before asking what the Cylons' purpose is.

My guess is there's something magnanimous in the Cylons' plan.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Wasn't this the 1st episode that had all 3 Sixs in it? Tricia Helfer got major screen time in 3 roles. The Six in Baltar's mind, Caprica Six Release 2.0, and the Pegasus Six. A definite 666 episode.

I was OK with the change in direction as I've always found the planetary episodes better and the pure in space battle episodes kinda booring but I do NOT like the direction indicated in the spoilers for next season posted in post #88.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

dtle said:


> Why does everyone seems to think that the Cylons showed up to conquer the humans? They never said as such, only mentioning that humans need to listen to them. I think Baltar was premature in surrending before asking what the Cylons' purpose is.
> 
> My guess is there's something magnanimous in the Cylons' plan.


Yah, like in "We're from the government. We're here to help you." Uh, oh.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

dnemec123 said:


> Listened to the podcast right after watching last night, and here's some spoiler information for next season:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did we listen to the same podcast?


Spoiler



1. Early on they said he wasn't coming back at all. They were kidding.
2. They were definitely joking when they said that.
3. They said he would be back next season.
4. I didn't hear that at all.

They've only just started outlining the first couple of episodes.



At least that's what I got out of it.


----------



## jafa (Jan 27, 2002)

Truth be told the *humans now need the cylons to survive*.

When people first started arriving in the new Americas there was nothing there. Life was hard. The life expectancy of a man arriving in America was 2 to 3 years. The reason America became populated was people kept arriving faster than people were dying. It took a lot of time and new people arriving before the population became self perpetuating.

In the BSG world this can't happen - they will become extinct.

Cylons are their only hope for survival.

Wow is that a twist to the storyline  :up: :up:


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

jafa said:


> Truth be told the humans now *need* the cylons to survive.
> 
> When people first started arriving in the new Americas there was nothing there. Life was hard. The life expectancy of a man arriving in America was 2 to 3 years. The reason America became populated was people kept arriving faster than people were dying.
> 
> ...


Of course the Cylons will have the antibiotics that Anders needs...


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

dnemec123 said:


> Listened to the podcast right after watching last night, and here's some spoiler information for next season:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wait! You forgot:



Spoiler



Tyrol and Tigh have a gay affair  referred to as Brokeback Galactica


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> Wait! You forgot:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No... *that *was serious.


----------



## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

I _loved_ this episode. And I usually hate the whole "and x years later..." (Alias lost me when they did that) but I trust RDM and crew.

October is too far away!


----------



## ArizonaAmy (May 26, 2005)

Our TiVo also cut off toward the end - can someone please summarize the last few minutes of the episode? It cut off in the middle of Baltar talking to the 3 cylons.

Thanks,
Amy


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NoThru22 said:


> Also, I like to read the spoilers on Ain't It Cool News after the episode airs.... Spoilers really ruin stuff for me.


 

We have a masochist in our midst!


----------



## TheSlyBear (Dec 26, 2002)

I still think the one-year-later scenario is a Baltar vision. Too much is "off":

1) Starbuck and Tighe/Ellen best buds? When they met, it was indicated that it'd been a long time since they last met. Which means the transition from complete enemies to bosum buddies would have to have happened in much less than a year. Off.

2) We all know Baltar is scum, but sex kittens in the oval office? A bit much. Off.

3) What about Richard Hatch's character? We know he's the political hand in Baltar's puppet. Just offing him when the nuke went off is too abrupt. Off.

4) Gaeta working for Baltar in his harem? He'd cut off his arm first. Off.

And on and on.

I think the 'reset' will be when Baltar wakes up from his vision.


----------



## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

bootedbear said:


> I'm feeling that the 'one year later' is a Baltar vision that he will snap out of in October.


It's SO obviously a dream based on his guilt after the conversation with Adama. Then he lays his head down to sleep and next thing we know it's "one year later."

Man, did Starbuck load on the weight after getting married. 
I didn't like Adama's longer, sloppy-looking hair, but I liked the mustache. I do think that was just another example of lack of discipline in the fleet and the military basically falling apart under Baltar's "leadership." Apollo looked to have gained some weight too and hair longer, unkempt-looking hair.

Edit: Oh yeah, and Roslyn reduced to her old profession of schoolteacher. To me, that could only be Baltar's imagination.



bootedbear said:


> Dean Stockwell was great -- loved his delivery!


Oh man! He cracked me up! Loved how he called his counterpart, "brother." Best line was EDIT: Sorry, had the line wrong - had to ask my husband. "Take me to your leader..." LMAO on that one.

Yeah, it was an interesting ending, but I truly believe we'll find out the last half hour was simply Baltar's dream.

Great episode though! That first part about the election had me thinking one thing, just to be surprised about twist after twist. I swore neither Adama nor Roslyn knew Tighe was fixing the election. Then I was surprised to find out Laura knew, but even more surprised to have Adama threaten to turn her in. Excellent writing there! It seems like a lot of folks here missed commenting on how well down that segment was done because of the off the wall ending. Great season finale regardless!

Cheryl


----------



## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

speedcouch said:


> Oh man! He cracked me up! Loved how he called his counterpart, "brother." Best lin


No, his best line was his sarcastic "Take me to your leader.".


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

You really think the last half hour was a dream? Now that would be lame, in my opinion.



bootedbear said:


> 1) Starbuck and Tighe/Ellen best buds? When they met, it was indicated that it'd been a long time since they last met. Which means the transition from complete enemies to bosum buddies would have to have happened in much less than a year. Off.


You could see the surprised look on Tighe's face. It was news to him that they were best buds. That was all Starbuck, and moments later you find out she has ulterior motives for kissing up to him.



bootedbear said:


> 2) We all know Baltar is scum, but sex kittens in the oval office? A bit much. Off.


He's not so much scum as he is crazy. He's been in a downward spiral since the show began and that seemed to continue over the year on New Caprica.



bootedbear said:


> 3) What about Richard Hatch's character? We know he's the political hand in Baltar's puppet. Just offing him when the nuke went off is too abrupt. Off.


I may have missed it, but I don't remember getting confirmation that he died. Did we know that for sure? Maybe he's running things while Baltar is partying like it's 1999.



bootedbear said:


> 4) Gaeta working for Baltar in his harem? He'd cut off his arm first. Off.


Do we really know that much about Gaeta? If it weren't for him Baltar wouldn't be president, maybe he feels a duty to work for him and try to lessen the harm he seems to be doing as president.


----------



## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

dtle said:


> What's with all the civilian ship orbiting New Caprica? Can't they be landed on the surface to use as indoor housing?


It's likely they were designed to work only in space. It's a lot easier to build a ship if you don't have to worry about an atomsphere.


----------



## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> Another interesting point... when did Tighe and Adama take up smoking? And Adama breaking off the filter... to speed up his own demise maybe?


Oh yeah, forgot about all the smoking in my first post. I noticed everyone was smoking. Seemed like a sign of desperation to me. But I kept wondering how they got so much tobacco (or whatever the Colonials smoke) in space? They haven't run out of tobacco, but antibiotics are in short supply???

Cheryl


----------



## bryan314 (Nov 17, 2004)

bootedbear said:


> I think the 'reset' will be when Baltar wakes up from his vision.


I'm thinking ol' Baltar found Roslyn's stash of 'herbal' remedy (The stuff she was using for the cancer.) in the presidential desk and is having himself a 'vision.' At least he's not seeing snakes on a podium.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Is it a dream or isn't it?
Well, they address this notion directly in the podcast and tell us...



Spoiler



It's NOT a dream



(All I've said in the spoiler is whether or not it's a dream...nothing else.)


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Don't forget that Gaeta and Baltar worked together on the "Cylon Detector". Also Gaeta thought Baltar was guilty of treason early on (when the other Six showed up that everybody could see). It was Gaeta that proved Baltar's innocence. I wasn't surprised to see Gaeta end up working for Baltar. Now whether or not he regrets the decision...


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

PJO1966 said:


> I wasn't surprised to see Gaeta end up working for Baltar. Now whether or not he regrets the decision...


I thought that one of the "points" of the election fraud was to explain why Gaeta would work for him. If Roslin and the XO were dirty, might as well work for Baltar.


----------



## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

appleye1 said:


> To me this episode proves this is still the best sci-fi show currently on TV. If you don't agree then name which one is better...
> 
> ....waiting....waiting....
> 
> Right, there isn't one!


That may be true, we won't really know till october. Especially after this ep.

But it looks like the chasm between BG and the other current science fiction shows is now a great deal narrower.

A GREAT deal narrower.

GODS I hope I'm wrong. Ep 1, season 3 will tell the tale, but I'm not looking forward to it as much as I was last thursday.


October??!? Isn't that historically when network seasons start?


----------



## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

I absolutely LOVED this episode! I also completely reject the critisism of this being a big "reset" and that it's a cheap way out. Where is it written that real life ever goes to plan and that you don't hit huge set backs. If this was a true story would we expect everything to be perfectly linear? 1) Cylons attack. 2) We run and don't stop. 3) We reach Earth. In my opinion a story like _that_ would be rejected as fanatasy. Where are the human screw-ups? Where are the things that went wrong? This way is perfect. They found a place that looked like an Eden to people who'd been trapped on the ships for 9+ months. It would have been completely unrealistic for the majority of people _not_ to demand they be let out especially with the apparent protection of the nebula sielding them from the Cylons. People were complaining that it wasn't going anywhere and now it's gotten really shaken up and people complain about that?!?

We now are going to have a completely different set of problems to look forward to. The combined might of the Galactic and Pegasus which took away much of the "If we see a Cylon we're dead" tension has been eliminated by having both ships severely undermanned. On top of that they've lost the luxury of just being able to run, they now are obligated to stay within reasonable distance of New Caprica so they can save nearly their entire race from the Cylons. Plus we get many more of the "Cylon-occupied New Caprica" opening shots with that different story line.

Reverend Al showing up with the resistance fighters wasn't a big deal continuity-wise to me. How many of you could identify each and every member of the resistance? There were well over a hundred at one point and we sure as heck never even saw all of them in the background, let alone get a clear shot of their face.

*For people who missed the last minute or so:* I missed it as well so I stayed up to catch the end of the second showing. After the Spylons with Original Recipe 6 and Galactica-now-Caprica Boomer and Doral show up, they give Baltar an ulitmatum. Give up or die. Baltar virtually breaks his arm whipping out the white flag: "As Duly elected representative of the Twelve Colonies, I surrender" We then see an endless column of Centurions marching up a street with humans on either side. Near the end we see Kara, the chief, and Cally standing and watching. Chief turns to Kara and says "What do we do now Captain?" to which Kara replies with the same answer she had when they thought they were done for on Caprica at the beginning of the episode: "We keep fighting 'til we can't anymore"


----------



## chewbaccad (Feb 16, 2005)

Tangent said:


> Chief turns to Kara and says "What do we do now Captain?" to which Kara replies with the same answer she had when they thought they were done for on Caprica at the beginning of the episode: "We keep fighting 'til we can't anymore"


Chief: What're we gonna do tonight, Kara?
Kara: Same thing we do everynight Chief. Try to take over the world!


----------



## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

DLiquid said:


> Did you miss the end of the show?


I guess I missed something because I was'nt convinced that the Sharon and Six that approached Baltar were the reborn pair.


----------



## chewbaccad (Feb 16, 2005)

I thought the Six made it abundantly clear that she was the hero version. I'd be fairly certain Baltar made that connection as well.


----------



## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

chewbaccad said:


> I thought the Six made it abundantly clear that she was the hero version. I'd be fairly certain Baltar made that connection as well.


Could this be misdirection? There is a chance that the Six of Three is actually Pegasus Six reborn. After all, both Pegasus Six and Caprica Six are 'intimately familiar' with Gaius Baltar. 

It's been shown that Spylons lie about everything. So I'm open to the idea that Pegasus Six lied about not being able to be re-incarnated after the Resurrection ship was toasted. Mama Boomer - I think - also lied when Starbuck questioned her about the Spylon resurrection ablilites in that same period. And the Dean Stockwell model, well, he just lied about everything, dangit!

Just something that came to mind when watching, feel free to blow holes in it.


----------



## jimmymac (Nov 6, 2002)

Anybody beside me think the reason the cylons came to New Caprica is because they somehow know that Boomer & Helo's baby is alive?


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

chewbaccad said:


> I thought the Six made it abundantly clear that she was the hero version. I'd be fairly certain Baltar made that connection as well.


It's too bad we didn't get to see Baltar's 6 (the one "in his head") or 6's Baltar.

I don't remember---does Baltar's 6 ever appear when there's another (physical) 6 in the room? Was she in the room with the raped 6? The 6 that accused Baltar of treason?


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> We have a masochist in our midst!


I said I like to read the spoilers after the episodes end to see if they were accurate. I didn't expect spoilers for the NEXT episode, even if they were wrong.


----------



## DLL66 (Oct 21, 2002)

vikingguy said:


> No story went forward at all they were all ended in 1 night. Every single outstanding storyline was ended so they could start over. Pushing the reset button does not equal moving the storylines forward.


What ever......Andromeda reruns are still playing........


----------



## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

Season TWO dvd news?

to quote RDM from his blog



> This will be explained in the longer version of "Pegasus" that'll be included in the Season Two DVD box set. Essentially, Pegasus had her network off-line in preparation for going into the shipyard for an overhaul and wasn't vulnerable to that point of attack.


notice he didn't say 2.5 or 2b maybe I am just "wishfull" thinking


----------



## questfortruth (Feb 18, 2005)

How many civilian ships/civilians were lost when Gina exploded the nuke?

And how many new babies have been born in the year since they settled on New Caprica?

And who has the unenviable job of calculating all of this and putting it up on the "survivors blackboard" for October?


----------



## VinceA (May 13, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> It's too bad we didn't get to see Baltar's 6 (the one "in his head") or 6's Baltar.
> 
> I don't remember---does Baltar's 6 ever appear when there's another (physical) 6 in the room? Was she in the room with the raped 6? The 6 that accused Baltar of treason?


I think she was in the room at points when Baltar was dealing with 'Gina' (PegaSix).


----------



## chronatog7 (Aug 26, 2004)

BTW, did anyone notice when the reverent Al's twins were talking, one of them said "AMEN"? I thought they say "Say we all".

Good episode, I'm still on the fence about where are we going with this. Hopefully, we haven't seen the end of an era (Jumping the shark).

Long live Galactica!


----------



## Kevdog (Apr 18, 2001)

jmoak said:


> But it looks like the chasm between BG and the other current science fiction shows is now a great deal narrower.
> 
> A GREAT deal narrower.
> 
> October??!? Isn't that historically when network seasons start?


There are other current science fiction shows?


----------



## chronatog7 (Aug 26, 2004)

Also, did anyone notice how they put a black block on the rear of Tortured 6 when she was getting naked?


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Oh my gods! That was pure awesome! Dean Stockwell really made the first half of the show. I loved his "take me to your leader" and his submission when he saw his "brother." Then the settling on New Caprica - I saw the "one year later" and my jaw dropped. Is it October yet?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

How about the Cylons marching through New Caprica exactly like the Nazis marching thought the streets of Paris? did anyone else get that vibe? 

how convenient that is was Gaeta who handed the presidency to Baltar! I still insist he's a spylon


----------



## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Graymalkin said:


> But I thought the Cylons were going to leave mankind alone. Or is this bunch a different faction?


No, the Cylons were probably lying. Or rather, I suspect the Dean Stockwell model is lying.

The Cylons haven't had a serious victory against the humans since their initial assaults on the 12 colonies. Even the resistance on Caprica was causing them serious problems. Huge body counts, huge property destruction... the Cylons were fighting against hit-and-run tactics, both on the conquered colonies and against the Colonial fleet. And the fleet was constantly on alert for Cylon attack, they were always moving, and always armed. They never slowed down to catch their breaths or look over their shoulders.

So the Cylons did the absolute SMARTEST thing they could do. They lied to the humans and tricked them into becoming complacent. They told them the war was over, and the humans believed them. And in that 380 days after Dean Stockwell told them that, the humans never saw a Cylon attack, there were no more Cylon sabotages, and they lived in relative peace. So the humans let down their guard. They grew so lazy that they forgot HOW to fight against the Cylons.

And the Cylons were able to walk right in. Not only were they able to slam right through the limited defenses of the remains of the fleet.... the humans are in a concentrated region on the planet, making it easier for the Cylons to take control of the human race.

The humans just got stupid and lazy. I suspect this is all just part of the plan for the Cylons. Humanity's children being reclaimed and turned into slaves... just like the Cylons originally were.



drew2k said:


> What happened to Richard Hatch's character immediately after the election? Was he on Cloud 9? Some exposition here would have been nice.


I was wondering that too, actually. Of the regular and semi-regular characters, he's the only one we didn't see any sign of in the flashforward (Viper pilots excluded). It was kind of interesting that in all the things we saw, and all the characters we saw, and all the interactions, Zarik wasn't seen once.

I can't imagine them killing off such an interesting character as Zarik without any kind of death scene... particularly not so soon in the series.



digdug said:


> And Adama took the word of two Cylons that the Caprica occupation and space-chase had just ended because the Cylons felt they made mistakes? Something is just not right here.


This, more than anything else in this thread, is the one thing I agree with most. Adama has spent a year since the Cylon attacks on the 12 Colonies being on guard, vigilent against any Cylon attacks... and he suddenly just stands down? More than anyone else in the Colonial Fleet, Adama has been the one on his toes and standing guard against Cylon incursions against the fleet, he's been the MOST apprehensive about Cylon attacks, he still doesn't trust Boomer enough to let her out of the Brig more than a minute.

And all of a sudden, a year later, he just ASSUMES the Cylon war is over because they haven't attacked in a year? And grows back the Ron Jeremy Stache-O-Doom as well?

That is NOT Bill Adama. Either the whole thing is a dream sequence (or it's just not real.... maybe it's some Cylon computer generated scenario of human surrender) or the writers have just forgotten who the hell Admiral Adama has been over these past two seasons.

I am still kind of ... I guess "jumbled" is a good word for explaining how I feel about this episode. On the one hand.... HOLY FRACKING COW! What a whizbang ending. The last half hour definitely had me on the edge of my seat, because I was looking for so much. It very much captivated me. And I can't wait for October, because I know it's going to start right back up and begin flashing back to that missing year.

But on the other hand....

Well, I'm right there in that camp of folks who think that last half hour is just a plot device to kickstart the story again. Because, frankly, I didn't much care for the second half of season two if I look at it as a whole. The first 3 episodes of season 2.5 were great. The last 2 episodes were great. But in between? Bleh. The overall arc of humanity's survival went absolutely nowhere. It just hung there in the air. Characters started acting out of character. And it felt like the writers had no idea how to keep the humans moving towards Earth without actually *getting* them to Earth. The Cylons might have a plan, but I'm not so sure the writers do anymore.

And it's a dang shame, because I love this show, and even in this mediocre season, I still love it more than so many other things on TV, and I still have so much faith in it. I have this suspicion that the 7 month break is happening because RDM needs to reset his viewpoint on Galactica and figure out what's going on with the series once again.

But with all that said? For a plot device, it was a HELL of a plot device.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> Why hasn't anyone *****ed that they had scenes from this episode in the pre-show credits? Including the scene of the Cloud 9 blowing up! I spend all this time trying to avoid spoilers and they say "ha ha, F you!"


The reason nobody has *****ed about it is because they've been doing that this whole season (at least 2.5 if not the whole second season). Don't you have TiVo? If so, why didn't you just 30-sec skip past that like everyone else?

And Skittles, I don't agree that Adama let down his guard. He still felt the need to remain vigilant and keep a watchful eye, but he probably couldn't justify keeping the entire crew onboard when the rest of humanity was getting on with their lives. Therefore, he didn't have a need for an XO when the crew was so small. I would guess that the majority of the combat personnel are on Pegasus anyway.

Finally, I don't think there was any doubt that the 6 and 8 that showed up in Baltar's office are the same two that were stuck in the underground parking garage with Anders and are now considered the "Heroes of the Cylons" according to the Dean Stockwell model. They've essentiall become the leaders of the "race" and it is likely because of them that the Cylons didn't completely wipe out the humans when they found them on New Caprica.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

My first thought after seeing the last half hour was "Shark. Jumped." I was really disappointed, though I can't put my finger on why. I'm in the camp that thought it was a dream when I was watching it.... SO much of it and the people seemed out of character. But now I'm not sure.

I'll certainly watch it in October (whatever network it's on) but I'm not nearly as expectant as I was at the end of last season.


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## rlc1 (Sep 15, 2003)

I guess I'm one of the people that did not think this season was "going nowhere". I thought it was going pretty well, the entire season. But this finale....I just don't know, it seemed so rushed. The part that kept making me think it was all a dream (a dream of Baltar's) was his little harem....I couldn't believe that even a scumbag like him would just lay around with a bunch of women like that....seemed like a real weird turn. 

I'm looking forward to next season because this is still my favorite show....but it's got me real worried now.


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## mrpantstm (Jan 25, 2005)

wow. just wow.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

One idle thought I've had lately is wondering whether the human-cylon models age naturally, should they live long enough. It would be interesting to see some that are older than the rest, perhaps greying, because they've been around the block.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

hefe said:


> Did anyone else think they made Lee look like his dad? He looked a little ...puffy, I guess, in the face. Kind of subtle. I don't know if that was real or my mind making it up...


He definetly looked puffy to me.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mrpantstm said:


> wow. just wow.


Smeek.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

hefe said:


> I agree. I don't know why it has to be considered a "reset." Because they're not still running through space? So what? This is just another stop along the way. Does anyone believe they're on New Caprica for good?


I think some people are misunderstand "reset" here or have a different definition that I do. What I'm saying is that to me, it seems that this reality is either someone's dream or some timeline that will go away. So, at some point in season 3, they will hit the "reset" button and things will be back to the way they were before Baltar became president and sent everyone down to New Caprica.

This was rather common practice on Enterprise.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> He definetly looked puffy to me.


Me, too!


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## Lord_Skywalker (Oct 22, 2005)

Skittles said:


> This, more than anything else in this thread, is the one thing I agree with most. Adama has spent a year since the Cylon attacks on the 12 Colonies being on guard, vigilent against any Cylon attacks... and he suddenly just stands down? More than anyone else in the Colonial Fleet, Adama has been the one on his toes and standing guard against Cylon incursions against the fleet, he's been the MOST apprehensive about Cylon attacks, he still doesn't trust Boomer enough to let her out of the Brig more than a minute.
> 
> And all of a sudden, a year later, he just ASSUMES the Cylon war is over because they haven't attacked in a year? And grows back the Ron Jeremy Stache-O-Doom as well?
> 
> That is NOT Bill Adama. Either the whole thing is a dream sequence (or it's just not real.... maybe it's some Cylon computer generated scenario of human surrender) or the writers have just forgotten who the hell Admiral Adama has been over these past two seasons.


I don't know, waiting over a year for something, anything to justify maintaining vigilance will change anyone. Don't forget, they also mentioned they were having trouble even maintaining training flights for the vipers. I think they tried to keep up training, but eventually started running out of fuel, ammo, etc. Plus, having Baltar as Pres has definitely brought down everyones moral, no doubt. I think Adama Just realized at the onset he was outgunned and knew he had to run to save any chance of even being able to try and rescue the New Caprica settlers.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

DLL66 said:


> What ever......Andromeda reruns are still playing........


The first season and a half of adromeda was actually good. Then sorbo took control and fired the writing staff and the show died a slow death. BSG had a really good season and a half then ron moore tried to get to cute with the show leading to the slow death of the show. I know it is hard to admit when the writers of your favorite show messed up big time been there myself. They have backed themselves so far into a corner there is no were to go but a show about resistance on new caprica. I think it was 6 base stars that jumped in there is no way the colonial fleet could ever take out 6 base stars at once. So now we will get to watch a show about star buck plotting a guerilla resistance against the evil cyclons and the human colaberators like baltar. Blah blah that does not sound to exciting to me. Hell I can see it being exactly like the season that the dominion took over DS9 if this was JMS I might be more hopefull. Moores claim to fame is ripping off JMS and B5 and that took a while to get going.


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned how cool the explosion was... how we saw part of the ship crack against a window... that was really well done.


I rewound this scene a few times because it was very very cool. I actually took it that the piece from the ship hit the camera! Notice how the image switches to static a few times after it is hit....just like what happens when a real video camera is struck by something or dropped. Brilliant!


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## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

I am more convinced that Gaeta is a spylon, and not jsut because he is working for Baltar. The ballot thing was a little weird. I think he was making up the bit about the mispelling of Baltar's name. If Tigh freaks out and says they need to investage then there may be a recount. If not, he knows Tigh is helping to rig things. After Tigh says he will handle things, Gaeta looks like he has a smile on his face. Anyone else catch that?


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Topher5000 said:


> ...Kara with long hair... mmm...mmm...mmm...toasty!
> ...


I have never found her all that hot, but now with the long hair....WOW!


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

vikingguy said:


> They have backed themselves so far into a corner there is no were to go but a show about resistance on new caprica.


It doesn't sound like you're thinking very creatively. The writers can go wherever they want from here. To me it seemed like they wanted the New Caprica event in the show's history but they didn't want to spend a lot of time on it, so they presented it in this way. Next season I would think they would move on to other things.

Also notice the title of the episode: Lay Down Your Burdens. Maybe Galactica's burden was the fleet of civilians, now they they have been "laid down" on New Caprica. Galactica could decide to proceed with their mission (after rescuing some main characters) and come back to New Caprica much later. Or the show could go in endless other directions.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

It better not be a dream.

I really liked this episode. The "1 year later" bit was unexpected and a little bit jarring but it totally fit in the scenario that Baltar is president of the colonies.

The Cylons have their own agenda. Why do they have to tell humans the truth? Why would the humans believe them anyway? Never believe anyone who has wiped out 99.9999999999999% of your race.

How many people has Roslyn thrown out the airlock?

I'm really looking forward to the "fast forward". The colonists are under Cylon domination. The fleet has abandoned them. How are they going to get out of this jam?

One gripe. Baltar is the least appealing, most unworthy candidate of elected office. I really see no reason for anyone to have voted for him, let alone have him be the winner.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> One gripe. Baltar is the least appealing, most unworthy candidate of elected office. I really see no reason for anyone to have voted for him, let alone have him be the winner.


Agreed. I also don't get why he wasn't impeached the way he running his office. It sure seemed that the workers had enough of him. And I don't know why Adama didn't look into Rosalyn's charges of Baltar working with 6 before the initial attack.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

DLiquid said:


> It doesn't sound like you're thinking very creatively. The writers can go wherever they want from here. To me it seemed like they wanted the New Caprica event in the show's history but they didn't want to spend a lot of time on it, so they presented it in this way. Next season I would think they would move on to other things.
> 
> Also notice the title of the episode: Lay Down Your Burdens. Maybe Galactica's burden was the fleet of civilians, now they they have been "laid down" on New Caprica. Galactica could decide to proceed with their mission (after rescuing some main characters) and come back to New Caprica much later. Or the show could go in endless other directions.


Find me a realistic way that 2 battle stars can defeat 6+ base stars that are orbiting the planet? Please there is no way it can happen logically that is why only adama and lee are on the battlestars because they are not important anymore. They made adama out to look like a beaten old man who does not have much life left and lee to be some fat guy who may die of a heart attack any second. The main storyline with most of the main characters will be about a resistance movement on new caprica. I am sure they will peek on the battle stars time to time but won't be the focus of the show anymore. If there was going to be a rescue there would be more main characters on the battle stars to help out. I guess they could go cheesey and the cyclons just leave on there own but that would be horrible writing. Think deep space 9 when the dominion took control of the station. You will have resistance leaders and fighters in tigh and starbuck and colaberators like baltar.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

super dave said:


> Agreed. I also don't get why he wasn't impeached the way he running his office. It sure seemed that the workers had enough of him. And I don't know why Adama didn't look into Rosalyn's charges of Baltar working with 6 before the initial attack.


Just a few of the hundred plot holes in the whole finale. That is what happens when you don't plan the show out more than an episode at a time you paint yourself into a corner and the reset button is the only way out.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

super dave said:


> And I don't know why Adama didn't look into Rosalyn's charges of Baltar working with 6 before the initial attack.


Who says it wasn't investigated? There wasn't much to go on. It's hard to coroborate a vague memory when most of the potential wtnesses were killed in a nucear strike.


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## rlc1 (Sep 15, 2003)

I just watched the ep last night (Saturday) so it is really just sinking in for me now, Sunday morning. Im still stunned by how fast everything happened in the last half-hour. Really enjoyed the final sequence with the Cylon ships flying overhead and the line of toasters marching along. Things are looking pretty grim for humanity now. Baltar's definitely going to need some bodyguards...

I guess the closing comments by Number Six really explain the Cylon's new way of thinking. Now instead of trying to exterminate humanity, they are going to try and "protect" them and show them the ways of "peace".


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Skittles said:


> And all of a sudden, a year later, he just ASSUMES the Cylon war is over because they haven't attacked in a year? And grows back the Ron Jeremy Stache-O-Doom as well?


My sense of it was that Adama is still carrying around the distrust, the certainty that the Cylons will come again. But he's getting tired of being almost the only one and having that argument and getting nowhere. Baltar is completely snowed and stops any official efforts. Even his troops are all seduced by the promise of peace and the hope of seeing the sky above them. Hell, *Starbuck* abandoned her post.

So he keeps it to himself. He contrives excuses to "keep watch in the lighthouse" to make sure that *someone* is ready. He does what one man can do. And he doesn't waste his time trying to convince everyone else and getting himself labelled as an alarmist, paranoid warmonger mired in the past. He just waits patiently for the day when he's proven right.

But nothing in the 'verse can justify that mustache.


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

They have given themselves options for many more story arcs now. 

1. Cyclon Heroes on New Caprica. Will they work together? Will Starbuck and Tigh lead a rebel force like Anders did. How will the baby figure into it? What about the planet itself? Is there anything unique about it. etc.

2. The fleet. They are still out there and manned. Granted they are probably a skeleton crew at best, but they can project force if they need to. What are they going to do? 

3. What happens when the other cyclon group shows up? Do the two cylon factions stay together? Or do the heroes and humans on New Caprica become allies in a war?

Alot of potential. And with the jump forward in time they have given thsemselves room for many a flashback. 

As for some of the plot points discussed....

A. Not all space ships are designed to take a trip through the atmosphere. The lunar lander for example.

B. Gaetta working for Baltar. After the election he might feel like "how can I trust my command officers?" So he left. Is he regretting it now....you bet.

C. Starbuck and Apollo. Is it as simple as her making fun of Dualla? Or is it something else? Like leaving the fleet.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

It's not a reset.

It's not a dream.


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## lordrichter (Jan 11, 2003)

I didn't see this as a reset, either.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

cwerdna said:


> I think some people are misunderstand "reset" here or have a different definition that I do. What I'm saying is that to me, it seems that this reality is either someone's dream or some timeline that will go away. So, at some point in season 3, they will hit the "reset" button and things will be back to the way they were before Baltar became president and sent everyone down to New Caprica.
> 
> This was rather common practice on Enterprise.


And it was a lame copout of crappy writers when it was used on Enterprise.

I'm with hefe on this issue.

It's not a reset (nor is a reset coming), it's not a dream.

It is a plot device that's _the antithesis of the lame "timeline resets" on Enterprise._

The writers of BSG, by "fast forwarding" in this way, have opened themselves to infinite possibilities. They've _expanded_ their possibilities in good ways!

It's not a reset, its a new and potentially exciting chapter in the saga.

Time will tell what October will bring, but at this point, I approve, and am really looking forward to season 3!


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

vikingguy said:


> They have backed themselves so far into a corner there is no were to go but a show about resistance on new caprica. I think it was 6 base stars that jumped in there is no way the colonial fleet could ever take out 6 base stars at once.


This is what made this show so appealing to me during season 1. Humanity always seemed to be hanging by a thread. The desperate measures they have to take to avoid extinction makes for an incredibly interesting and sometimes controversial story.

Even though their current predicament seems hopeless there are many plausible ways out of it.
There may not even be a resistance movement if this faction of cylons are themselves running.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Galactica 1980 was what happened to Battlestar Galactica when they jumped ahead in time between seasons.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Narkul said:


> There may not even be a resistance movement if this faction of cylons are themselves running.


...and that could be the most interesting part of all this. There have been hints since the very beginning that there are different factions of Cylons working at cross-purposes. I've been waiting for those factions to emerge into full-out conflict, and then start aligning with the various factions of humans...especially when Adama became more sympathetic to Cylons and Roslyn more hard-core anti-Cylon (although they seemed to abandon that dynamic in the second season). If that's what they're up to, it could really open things up!


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

devdogaz said:


> The reason nobody has *****ed about it is because they've been doing that this whole season (at least 2.5 if not the whole second season). Don't you have TiVo? If so, why didn't you just 30-sec skip past that like everyone else?


I WAS 30 second skipping. I knew it was near the end of the credits, so I was slowing down the skipping to see where I was. I stopped just as the Cloud 9 was shown blowing up.


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## chavez (Nov 18, 2004)

ok, my recording cut off just as President Baltar was meeting the Cylons in his office. Six said she knew who he was, then it cut off.

Did I miss anything after that??


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## questfortruth (Feb 18, 2005)

dswallow said:


> Galactica 1980 was what happened to Battlestar Galactica when they jumped ahead in time between seasons.


No, Galatica 1980 is what happened to BSG when the network completely gutted the budget, and Larson responded by firing the big "stars" (Hatch and Benedict), selling off the special effects team to _Buck Rogers,_ and transferring most of the "action" to Earth.

As Moore said in the podcast for this episode, he's trying to push the boundaries in terms of what is possible in a television series. Much respect to him for that, regardless of the outcome :up:


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## Lannister80 (Oct 6, 2005)

windracer said:


> Anyone else thinking "evil twin" when EJO showed up with the 'stache?


Save it for Queen Doppelpopolus, Doppelganger!


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Hunter Green said:


> But nothing in the 'verse can justify that mustache.


On this, we can both agree.

I just have a hard time believing that a civilization capable of faster-than-light travel and curing cancer and recycling water is capable of that kind of fashion faux pas.


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## BlueDuke (Jun 2, 2002)

I don't think it can be a dream. We saw Sharon and Boomer's baby as well as the adoptive mother. Only a few people knew about that, and Gaius wasn't one of them.


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## ToddAtl (Jul 27, 2003)

I will keep my fingers crossed that the writers can somehow pull this off. From where I sit, next season seems like it will be a very different show. Whether you want to use the word reset or not, its certainly a fundamental change in the underlying premise of the show.

I agree with what some others have said that there are things that have happened in the last year that have changed the dynamics of some characters' relationships with one another. Gaeta and Baltar, Lee and Starbuck, Adama and has facial hair lol. What I would hate to see is the show almost go "Lost" on us for a while where each episode splits time with current doings and tries to tell us in flashbacks what happened in the year thats been skipped over.

Last, it seemed to me that the population count for New Caprica City should have been higher. It was somewhere in the 30's when the last fleet count was around 50,000. I doubt almost 20k people decided to stay in space, especially if the Battlestars are so under-crewed. I suppose there could be other settlements on New Caprica to account for that population gap or it could be that life over the last year has been really tough and a large number of people have died.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ToddAtl said:


> Last, it seemed to me that the population count for New Caprica City should have been higher. It was somewhere in the 30's when the last fleet count was around 50,000. I doubt almost 20k people decided to stay in space, especially if the Battlestars are so under-crewed. I suppose there could be other settlements on New Caprica to account for that population gap or it could be that life over the last year has been really tough and a large number of people have died.


Several ships were destroyed when Baltar's nuke went off.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...and that could be the most interesting part of all this. There have been hints since the very beginning that there are different factions of Cylons working at cross-purposes. I've been waiting for those factions to emerge into full-out conflict, and then start aligning with the various factions of humans...especially when Adama became more sympathetic to Cylons and Roslyn more hard-core anti-Cylon (although they seemed to abandon that dynamic in the second season). If that's what they're up to, it could really open things up!


Add me to those who are hopeful with this turn of events. I listened to the podcast and lots of effort was made to change the appearance of both Adamas. They commented that they hoped that Galactica Boomer Release 2.0 really 'looked like a cylon' in the final scene.

Several great scenes in this episode...
* Adama confronting the Pres about the fraud and her 180 agreeing to disclosure
* Baltar attempting to go toe to toe with Adama and backing off
* The recycled spylons confronting Pres Baltar and his surrender


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## chewbaccad (Feb 16, 2005)

ToddAtl said:


> Last, it seemed to me that the population count for New Caprica City should have been higher. It was somewhere in the 30's when the last fleet count was around 50,000. I doubt almost 20k people decided to stay in space, especially if the Battlestars are so under-crewed. I suppose there could be other settlements on New Caprica to account for that population gap or it could be that life over the last year has been really tough and a large number of people have died.


I could be wrong, but I thought the pop# for New Caprica was 39k+. The pop# for the fleet has always been 49k+. So that leaves ~10k who were either killed in the blast from Cloud Nine or are still manning the sizeable fleet in orbit. Sounds about right to me, though I'm still kinda uneasy about the how the personnel of the group was split.

Edit: thinking about it now though, wonder what happened to the all of the prisoners aboard the Astral Queen. Did they just get released back into general population on the planet? That's kind of a high percentage of your planetary pop to be violent criminals. I'll stay on the ship, thank you


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## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

How much time passed between Starbuck asking for the medicine and the visitor to her tent?

Wondering if Lee sent a batch of medicine to her, delivered by a pilot. That would set up Starbuck having access to a fighter craft for next season.


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## mikeinla (Jun 6, 2004)

You can see where this is going...but it's still going to be good.

First, they didn't destroy the human colony...and only the "good cylons" were there. 

Second, they didn't repudiate the "we made a mistake" stuff...no mention of that

Third, if they destroyed all those human colonists, there wouldn't be enough left for a show...

Where's it going? 

Cylon civil war. 

The producers are DS9 folks....remember the Klingon civil war...and the federation attempts to stay out of it?

There's your plot line. Plenty of good stuff about the internal running of the Cylon empire (which would be interesting)...with a potential story line of how the Cylons got to be Cylons (really, really interesting)

Plus, rogue Cylons can allow most of the humans to escape...and wander "out there among the stars"....

Season 3 leading into Season 4..


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I think next season we're going to see another batch of cylongs either swoop in and start fughting the cylons we see now. Enabling many of them to escape or what not.

Or, the majority of the cylons there now will have to jump out to fight somewhere else.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

vikingguy said:


> The main storyline with most of the main characters will be about a resistance movement on new caprica. I am sure they will peek on the battle stars time to time but won't be the focus of the show anymore.


Just because that's the only idea you can think of doesn't mean that's what the show will become. The premiere episode could have a rival Cylon faction show up and lead to the humans making an escape amidst the bedlam. Or in a completely different scenario, Baltar could ally with the Cylons and pursue Galactica and the rest of the fleet. There are literally hundreds of directions they could go with the show.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Priest Al showing up on Caprica and nobody questioning where he came from is terrible. 100 percent terrible. 

Not only did they not _question_ him - they all appeared to be brainwashed when he started talking. Nobody bothers to ask - 'Who the Frak is this guy!? Do you know him - no? - you - no?' 

There is no excuse for not explaining this. It makes me really wonder if the writers even care.

-Mike


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## Lord_Skywalker (Oct 22, 2005)

GadgetFreak said:


> How much time passed between Starbuck asking for the medicine and the visitor to her tent?
> 
> Wondering if Lee sent a batch of medicine to her, delivered by a pilot. That would set up Starbuck having access to a fighter craft for next season.


Remember, Starbuck was on the 'phone' with Lee when the Basestars jumped in. I don't think Lee would send a Viper down just to leave them behind.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mostman said:


> Priest Al showing up on Caprica and nobody questioning where he came from is terrible. 100 percent terrible.
> 
> Not only did they not _question_ him - they all appeared to be brainwashed when he started talking. Nobody bothers to ask - 'Who the Frak is this guy!? Do you know him - no? - you - no?'
> 
> ...


They mention in the podcast that they weren't pleased with the way that scene played. 
They didn't question it beacuse he was supposed to be with them. He wasn't a sudden appearance. Moore admitted that it was a script problem.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

mostman said:


> Priest Al showing up on Caprica and nobody questioning where he came from is terrible. 100 percent terrible.
> 
> Not only did they not _question_ him - they all appeared to be brainwashed when he started talking. Nobody bothers to ask - 'Who the Frak is this guy!? Do you know him - no? - you - no?'
> 
> There is no excuse for not explaining this. It makes me really wonder if the writers even care.


He didn't magically appear in the forest, the writers picked that moment to introduce him to the viewers. He was part of the resistance group. How or when he became part of the group was not explained, but I don't need them to explain everything.

EDIT: Or what Hefe said.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

I personally loved this episode and can't wait for October to see where they take it. It shocked me when they went forward a year, but I completely bought how it could happen that way given how the election turned and the people were demanding settlement. With the Cylons saying they made a mistake and then not having anything happen even longer than they had been on the run prior (which Adama points out in the show, IIRC), the people's desire to return to a 'normal' life not in space is very easy to buy. 

Also, I'll disagree with everyone else on another point, I dig EJO with the mustache, I hope he keeps it


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Yep - just heard it on the podcast myself. He was indeed intended to be part of the resistance group. I'm not sure how they would have done it - otherwise, we would have known last week when he talked to the Chief, that he was a Cylon. They are right, it is the look of surprise on their faces that makes the scene not work. Also - they put him high up above them and it makes it look like he just appeared. 

Knowing this changes things. It means that they had an insider in the resistance group all along. Couldn't he have mitigated some of the terrorist style attacks that the group was pulling off?


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

OK - finished the podcast. What upsets me is that I _really_ feel that these guys are flying by wire here. It sounds like they plan a couple episodes ahead, but that is it. I honestly don't think this kind of show can work unless you have the complete timeline laid out. I hope I am wrong - I really do.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

The Adama 'stache only adds more plausibility to Jason Lee (post Chicken Pox) playing Adama in a flashback scene. Can't you see it? :up:


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## ckelly5 (Feb 27, 2004)

windracer said:


> Anyone else thinking "evil twin" when EJO showed up with the 'stache?


Actually, I was thinking "Miami Vice"


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## mikeinla (Jun 6, 2004)

One of the problems BSG has it that Olmos has many other projects going on. Hence the "he's badly wounded in the hospital" sequence. They used the same on Law and Order when Det. Greene was off filming "Rent". He was badly, badly wounded...but then recovered miraculously when the shoot was over! EJO was off producing an HBO movie when he was badly wounded.

I just rewatched the episode...I'm convinced that a Cylon civil war is coming. They're recycling the plot line from DS9. M*A*S*H used to recycle plots all the time. That will give them a way to get most of the humans off the planet...focus a lot on the Cylons which all the BSGers will love...give EJO time off to do whatever.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

The Cylons giving the "We detected a nuclear blast" line is a total lie. Or at least not necessary with Zena Warrior Spylon still in their midst. Didn't anyone else spot her with a camera in front of her face during the Presidential debates? Look at the crowd right before the last time Baltar speaks. Sure looks like her holding a cam.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

DLiquid said:


> He didn't magically appear in the forest, the writers picked that moment to introduce him to the viewers. He was part of the resistance group. How or when he became part of the group was not explained, but I don't need them to explain everything.
> 
> EDIT: Or what Hefe said.


I'm in a different camp: I don't need _everything_ explained, but I _do_ need _some_ things explained, especially when the scene plays out in a manner that totally brings me, the loyal viewer, out of the scene.

Just a minor bit of prep work could have easily resolved the big Dean Stockwell reveal for me. For example, let a "red shirt" get mortally wounded early in the finale, and have Anders say, "I'll get the priest." Starbuck: "You have a priest with you?" Anders: "Yeah, for a couple of months now." This doesn't give away the store, and later when we finally see who the priest is, we're shocked, but not taken out of the moment.

I also hate the idea that to figure out what happened on the show, you need to listen to a podcast (or read a blog, or get a supplemental 1-minute webcast, etc.) The story should be the story: you see it, you hear it, you know it.

But that's just me ... being me. Hey, I gotta be me!


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

That would have worked nicely, Drew. But as soon as I saw Caprica Al, I figured he must have been there all along.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mostman said:


> OK - finished the podcast. What upsets me is that I _really_ feel that these guys are flying by wire here. It sounds like they plan a couple episodes ahead, but that is it. I honestly don't think this kind of show can work unless you have the complete timeline laid out. I hope I am wrong - I really do.


Well, here's my take on that...

All shows do that. I don't know why we expect this one to be different.

Yes, there may be a general idea of where it's all going, and maybe even an ultimate ending, but week to week, to sustain the story for a currently unknown number of seasons, that's just the way it works. Like the producers of Lost said in their podcast, it's like they're making a cross country trip...they know the ultimate destination, but the path the take to get there is planned as they go. Things change, new ideas come up.

You can't just track along a pre-programmed timeline, unless you are making something with a fixed length. They don't know how many seasons, how many episodes they're going to get. They're going to go with ideas that they find interesting as they come up. And eventually, when they get word that the series is cancelled or they decide to bring it to an end, they move into wrapup mode.

That's TV.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

drew2k said:


> I'm in a different camp: I don't need _everything_ explained, but I _do_ need _some_ things explained, especially when the scene plays out in a manner that totally brings me, the loyal viewer, out of the scene.
> 
> Just a minor bit of prep work could have easily resolved the big Dean Stockwell reveal for me. For example, let a "red shirt" get mortally wounded early in the finale, and have Anders say, "I'll get the priest." Starbuck: "You have a priest with you?" Anders: "Yeah, for a couple of months now." This doesn't give away the store, and later when we finally see who the priest is, we're shocked, but not taken out of the moment.
> 
> ...


I was going to say that all they had to do was have Anders call him by name after he stood up and said his line, but I think your way might be better. Either way, it would have simply been a 5 second add-on to the script that would have easily explained the situation. Can't believe the producer blamed that on script problems. Don't they have anyone there creative enough to come up with something to resolve that?


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## mikeinla (Jun 6, 2004)

devdogaz said:


> I was going to say that all they had to do was have Anders call him by name after he stood up and said his line, but I think your way might be better. Either way, it would have simply been a 5 second add-on to the script that would have easily explained the situation. Can't believe the producer blamed that on script problems. Don't they have anyone there creative enough to come up with something to resolve that?


There's no reason the producers can't introduce new characters at random. We haven't seen all 50,000 humans on all those ships...plenty of unseen humans to pop out of nowhere!

Besides, they've been openly saying there are more Cylons living among the colonists!


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## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

5thcrewman said:


> The Cylons giving the "We detected a nuclear blast" line is a total lie. Or at least not necessary with Zena Warrior Spylon still in their midst. Didn't anyone else spot her with a camera in front of her face during the Presidential debates? Look at the crowd right before the last time Baltar speaks. Sure looks like her holding a cam.


Remember how when she did her documetnary that the Cylons had to send in a couple of Raiders to relay the data? Since the Cylons didn't know where the fleet was and we know they never saw Cylons in that time who would she have relayed any data to? The fact that the Raider relay was required in the first place implies that at best she had a very short range transmitter available to her.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

DLiquid said:


> Just because that's the only idea you can think of doesn't mean that's what the show will become. The premiere episode could have a rival Cylon faction show up and lead to the humans making an escape amidst the bedlam. Or in a completely different scenario, Baltar could ally with the Cylons and pursue Galactica and the rest of the fleet. There are literally hundreds of directions they could go with the show.


There are no realistic directions. With 39000 people one the planet and the fleet not being able to land you are only going to be able to shuttle 100-200 people and hour. Your are look at a week to get everyone off the planet. How can 2 battlestars hold off 6 basestars for a week to get people off the planet? Since the planet is only 9 cyclon jumps from caprica the cyclons can have reinforcements there in a few hours. Under these conditions how can you realisticaly have any sort of rescue mission? The only hope would be a long drawn out resistance were the cyclons change there minds and leave on there own. Sure another set of cyclons might attack since they will be anti-human they will nuke new caprica 39000 people dead end of show. There is no real way out of this but to turn the show into a underground resistance soap with rebellion leader starbuck. There was a deliberate reason why every main character but 2 are on the planet. That is because the planet is the new focus of the show.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mikeinla said:


> There's no reason the producers can't introduce new characters at random. We haven't seen all 50,000 humans on all those ships...plenty of unseen humans to pop out of nowhere!
> 
> Besides, they've been openly saying there are more Cylons living among the colonists!


I think you need to go back and read the rest of the thread before you jump in. Of course they can introduce new charcters. Of course there are Cylon models we haven't met yet. The point of the discussion was that several people found it odd that this unknown priest shows up in the midst of the rebels and the SAR team and they take him all the way back to Galactica without anyone asking who he was and he turned out to be a Cylon. Then we found out it was explained in the podcast that he was supposed to have been with the resitance the whole time, but the script didn't accurately reflect that. All drew and I were saying is that an additional line or two would have solved that problem and it wouldn't have made that seem like such a huge flaw in the story.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> 3. They're still living in tents but they've got unionized labor and strikes?


Why do you think they're still living in tents? 

I LOVED this episode.

I can't believe people didn't get that Caprica Al was part of the group. How the hell would he have gotten there otherwise?

I also wonder why people think this is some kind of Baltar dream. Nothing indicated that to me at least.

Loved the end and where this story is going.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

OT:



drew2k said:


> the ending reminded me of A.I. Artificial Intelligence, where you could tell where Kubrick wanted to end the film, and could see where Spielberg took up the story and went in a different direction


Which is untrue. That part was ALWAYS a part of the movie Kubrick was working on. It was not added by Spielberg, although many seem to think so for some reason.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

MickeS said:


> Which is untrue. That part was ALWAYS a part of the movie Kubrick was working on. It was not added by Spielberg, although many seem to think so for some reason.


It feels added by Spielberg because it's the sort of "happy happy" thing he's known for, and because it violates both the tone and spirit of the story. Ending the movie when the kid is "drowned" in the sea is better both dramatically and as a sci-fi story. I could very well believe that a studio executive, foolishly thinking that a story with a child in it must be a children's story, demanded a happy ending and Spielberg complied.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

vikingguy said:


> There are no realistic directions. With 39000 people one the planet and the fleet not being able to land you are only going to be able to shuttle 100-200 people and hour. Your are look at a week to get everyone off the planet. How can 2 battlestars hold off 6 basestars for a week to get people off the planet? Since the planet is only 9 *cyclon* jumps from caprica the *cyclons* can have reinforcements there in a few hours. Under these conditions how can you realisticaly have any sort of rescue mission? The only hope would be a long drawn out resistance were the *cyclons* change there minds and leave on there own. Sure another set of *cyclons* might attack since they will be anti-human they will nuke new caprica 39000 people dead end of show. There is no real way out of this but to turn the show into a underground resistance soap with rebellion leader starbuck. There was a deliberate reason why every main character but 2 are on the planet. That is because the planet is the new focus of the show.


Why do you keep spelling it *"cyclons"*? Do you actually watch this show? Have you ever heard anyone on the show call them the *"cyclons"*? Have you noticed anyone else in this thread spell it *"cyclons"* and thought it must have a silent "C"?

Or are you trying to make some kind of statement by spelling it that way? I have to tell you, it's not obvious if you are. I'm not getting it.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

appleye1 said:


> Why do you keep spelling it *"cyclons"*? Do you actually watch this show? Have you ever heard anyone on the show call them the *"cyclons"*? Have you noticed anyone else in this thread spell it *"cyclons"* and thought it must have a silent "C"?
> 
> Or are you trying to make some kind of statement by spelling it that way? I have to tell you, it's not obvious if you are. I'm not getting it.


Bad habbit I guess because I have a character named cyclone in an online game. I guess I am just used to the cyc is all my bad. Type cyclone a few thousand times and you to might get into a bad habbit.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

vikingguy said:


> There are no realistic directions. With 39000 people one the planet and the fleet not being able to land you are only going to be able to shuttle 100-200 people and hour. Your are look at a week to get everyone off the planet. How can 2 battlestars hold off 6 basestars for a week to get people off the planet?


Obviously two undermanned battlestars can't take on 6 basestars for long enough to evac the planet. (Although if somehow you could seize control of the portion of the fleet that is already landed on planet you could cut down your time estimate).

However, given the sensor masking tendency of the nebula the Battlestars shouldn't have any trouble sneaking close enough to use Raptors for FTL jumps into the atmosphere. Even with heavy Cylon patrolling, that ability should let you sneak in and out occasionally; which could let you reshuffle major characters a little, plus smuggling supplies.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

Jonathan_S said:


> Obviously two undermanned battlestars can't take on 6 basestars for long enough to evac the planet. (Although if somehow you could seize control of the portion of the fleet that is already landed on planet you could cut down your time estimate).
> 
> However, given the sensor masking tendency of the nebula the Battlestars shouldn't have any trouble sneaking close enough to use Raptors for FTL jumps into the atmosphere. Even with heavy Cylon patrolling, that ability should let you sneak in and out occasionally; which could let you reshuffle major characters a little, plus smuggling supplies.


I could see raptors being able to do real quick missions but nothing to evacuate 39000 people. To do that kind of precise jump won't they need sharon to run the cylon FTL computer?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tivogurl said:


> It feels added by Spielberg because it's the sort of "happy happy" thing he's known for, and because it violates both the tone and spirit of the story. Ending the movie when the kid is "drowned" in the sea is better both dramatically and as a sci-fi story. I could very well believe that a studio executive, foolishly thinking that a story with a child in it must be a children's story, demanded a happy ending and Spielberg complied.


I suspect the ending would have "read" very differently had Kubrick's version been made...


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## mulscully (May 31, 2003)

Why were the battlestars undermanned? That seems out of character for Adama..

Startbuck on the surface? living in a tent? again out of character.. it would kill her not to be pushing the envelope, not flying...

If it's not a dream, its something odd because too much is out of character...

Maybe it's Rosyln's vision... she gets them sometimes doesn't she? 

And I remember Adama and Rosyln going to blows about diferences in opinion on the fleet, but if Baltar (who Adam thinks might just possibly be a cylon conspiritor, maybe?) he goes along with it.. Frak Baltar...And Adam doesn't suspect that since it was Baltars Nuke that he might have had a hand in it... 

also what is the fraking bs with october.. 7 months.... what are they taking a page out of Soprano' book?

I agree a cylon civil war plot would be great.. but I don't like the way they got to it... too rushed...


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

What? 7 months is fine. Are you joking? The sopranos takes nearly 2 years between seasons.

I really despised this episode. I liked this season for the most part, except for a few of the pegasus plotlines. But this is really unacceptable to me. This show in one episode has dropped off my list of favorite shows. I'll still watch it, but this is just a total betrayal and copout in writing, and I no longer feel honest recommending the show to friends.

I enjoyed Dean Stockwell a lot in this episode. And pegasus six. Those plot elements almost made me forget the rest of this garbage. Or maybe I almost repressed the memory.

Yeah ok, the one year later thing is kind of interesting. Except that it was executed like a high school remedial writer would have executed it. Did we suddenly enter into a low-budget B movie here? Unions, corrupt president, labor camps without antibiotics. Riiiiggghht. I guess the scene with the blacksmith and street preacher didn't make the cut.

Their democracy works in a pretty ridiculous way. The day the elections take place the new president takes power... yowch, I'd hate to see what chaos that caused on the colonies way back when. Adama "suggests" that baltar forget the corruption of the election? Well ok, as long as you tell me to I'll just forget it.

Why is Adama so willing to acquiesce to Baltar? I seem to recall a full season of near martial law in revolt agains the president. He hears that Baltar may be a cylon conspirator, baltar makes an order he disagrees in a fundamental way with, and he just acquiesces? What?

It's not a full reset, but it's a reset of some sort. The nature of several characters has changed. What happened to the chief's mental issue? No sign of it. Of course let's build in an as-yes-undisclosed random currently unwritten event that caused a rift between starbuck and apollo. Why not?

Sorry, hated this. I can only hope that it's just one bad episode we have to suffer with and forget about so we can move on to something interesting that isn't directly out of something I'd expect to see in a Sci Fi made-for-tv movie.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

mulscully said:


> Why were the battlestars undermanned? That seems out of character for Adama.


I imagine the President Baltar probably squeezed their resources pretty thin to support the operations on the planet. He is, after all, the President. And the Colonial Fleet sounds very much like an all-volunteer fleet. So if some of them want to move on with their lives, that is their perrogotive.

I hope we find out more about the conspiracy not to tell Baltar about the hybrid child. You would think that, as president, he should have been briefed on the issue. Which just goes to show that none of the primaries trust Baltar very much.

I'm also of the opinion that Gaeta is keeping an eye on Baltar on behalf of Adama.



TAsunder said:


> Why is Adama so willing to acquiesce to Baltar? I seem to recall a full season of near martial law in revolt agains the president.


I think because, for the most part, settling down on the planet is the will of the populace. Who's to say that this planet, from their POV, is any better or worse than Earth?

-Mike


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

I've read a few times in this topic that it's hard to believe that 2 Battlestars could fight 6 Basestars. My thinking is that they might not have to. 
Once the initial strike is made, and the human population is under "control", a smaller occupational force can maintain that "control". There might not be a need for 6 Basestars. I would bet that some of them will leave soon. Maybe they will pursue the escaped fleet of human ships.

I'm in the "anything can happen" camp here. Who says the story has to follow any logical pattern anyway? Who says the Cylons have to follow our common military strategies? 

If (for example) there are 6 Basestars and only 2 Battlestars, it doesn't mean that Galactica and Pegasus must fight these 6 Basestars to save humanity. There's so much more that can be imagined!


I too was a little disappointed in Caprica Al's sudden appearance and the resistance fighters' reactions to it! It just didn't quite work for me. A few minutes after, it was clear what was going on so now it really doesn't matter.

In my opinion, predictability kills the enjoyment of many shows. This ending was certainly unexpected!


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

I have not seen anyone mention the caprica-six and caprica-boomer and the fact that the other cylon woman they killed was supposed to download in 36 hours. That sotryline was not taken anywhere.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MickeS said:


> I also wonder why people think this is some kind of Baltar dream. Nothing indicated that to me at least.


because the way they did the transition from day 1 of his presidency to a year later was by him falling asleep on his desk...

I don't think it's a dream, but it's certainly a possibility...


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## TreborPugly (May 2, 2002)

danplaysbass said:


> I have not seen anyone mention the caprica-six and caprica-boomer and the fact that the other cylon woman they killed was supposed to download in 36 hours. That sotryline was not taken anywhere.


Sure it was. The Dean Stockwell cyclon told us that two cylons (the six and boomer you are asking about) convinced the rest of the cyclons that they needed to change what they were doing. The Lucy Lawless cyclon is therefore irrelevant.

The six and boomer are therefore in charge of the cyclons now, and then we see them at the end, verifying this.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Why do people keep saying it's out of character for Adama to have an undermanned Battlestar? Who says he had any choice in the matter? Sure he let Tigh go, but why do you need Tigh if there's no one to command? I'm sure a lot of the troops bought into the starting a new life thing and left the ship voluntarily. They could try to keep those people there, but with hope in their hearts, however misguided, it would be a losing battle.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Now that Humanity is living in New Deadwood, the mind boggles at the new cuss words we can expect. 
We already have 'Mother Fracker', but will we get 'Centon Sucker?'


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TreborPugly said:


> Sure it was. The Dean Stockwell cyclon told us that two cylons (the six and boomer you are asking about) convinced the rest of the cyclons that they needed to change what they were doing. The Lucy Lawless cyclon is therefore irrelevant.
> 
> The six and boomer are therefore in charge of the cyclons now, and then we see them at the end, verifying this.


What are cy*c*lons?


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## digdug (Jan 13, 2004)

The past two seasons we've watched as the fleets sole purpose was to save humanity and fight the Cylons. They've devised tactics and theories to help them fight the Cylons. 

So after a year has passed everyone forgets about the Cylons and thinks the wasteland they've landed on is Eden? Why don't they impeach the new Pres? Hell why don't they revolt and force him from office? Why would they even tolerate his living inside a ship with his Girls Gone Wild while they live in tents and scratch out a survival?

And the moment the Cylons show up Adama goes FTL and jumps outa there? I find it hard to believe that he would do that since his entire mission was to save humanity. In that reality, he's quite possibly leaving the remaining stragglers to die at the hands of the Cylons - which goes against everything he's done the last two seasons. 

Even being outnumbered I believe Adama would stay and fight - at least going down with the ship - rather than cut & run only to come back later to see if there were survivors.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

dswallow said:


> What are cy*c*lons?


Cylons riding bicycles?


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> Why do people keep saying it's out of character for Adama to have an undermanned Battlestar? Who says he had any choice in the matter? Sure he let Tigh go, but why do you need Tigh if there's no one to command? I'm sure a lot of the troops bought into the starting a new life thing and left the ship voluntarily. They could try to keep those people there, but with hope in their hearts, however misguided, it would be a losing battle.


For the most part, the argument is probably coming up because there's always been a very clear line between the military and the government. Near the end of the miniseries, and throughout most of Season 1, there was a lot of talk about how Adama controlled all aspects of the fleet control, and the President could not control that. Remember, Roslin was arrested and thrown into Galactica's brig after she asked Starbuck to commandeer the captured Cylon raider, because she took control of a military asset. It was outside of the President's authority to do so.

Now, realistically, people can resign their commissions and leave the fleet after they start to see that life on the planet is beginning to take hold, and after the Cylons stop coming. It makes sense for folks like Tyrel and Callie to take up residence there, since Callie's pregnant and it makes no sense for her to be on Galactica with a baby on the way when there's "permanent" settlement on New Caprica.

But Starbuck's presence on New Caprica is still puzzling. As a few others have mentioned, Starbuck's home has always been in the cockpit of a Viper. It's who she is, it's in her blood. I have a hard time understanding what could compel her to live on New Caprica as opposed to staying on Galactica with her family. And of course, there are lots of fully plausible possibilities as to why she left Galactica (and most of them involve her love for Anders), but we didn't even get a hint as to why she was there as opposed to on Galactica. Granted, there's no war, and there's no one to fight *or* to flight train.... but Starbuck was a flight officer long before the Cylon attack on the 12 Colonies, and you can tell that as much as she loves Anders, she loves being in a Viper more. A lot more.

But questions like that are probably going to occupy most of the first few episodes in Season 3. Things like "Why in the fracking hell did Starbuck leave Galactica?", "What was Gaeta smoking when he decided to become President Baltar's advisor?", "Who told Bill Adama the stache-o-doom looked good?", and other things like that are almost certainly going to take up the first few episodes once October rolls around.

It's kind of funny. My opinion on this episode keeps wavering. No matter what, I give RDM and the writers a LOT of credit for presenting an episode that has kept me interested and thinking about it long after the end credits rolled. I really need to go back and watch it again with the commentary track.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

digdug said:


> And the moment the Cylons show up Adama goes FTL and jumps outa there? I find it hard to believe that he would do that since his entire mission was to save humanity. In that reality, he's quite possibly leaving the remaining stragglers to die at the hands of the Cylons - which goes against everything he's done the last two seasons.


He doesn't have a choice. If Adama gets behind the wheel and cruises the virtually empty Galactica into the middle of the cylons, it's certain suicide. There's no choice BUT to leave and figure out what to do. To simply subject your only real military assets to certain immediate destruction with no hope of having any positive effect wouldn't make sense either. They gave up a lot of lives on the colonies by leaving too...


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

digdug said:


> And the moment the Cylons show up Adama goes FTL and jumps outa there? I find it hard to believe that he would do that since his entire mission was to save humanity. In that reality, he's quite possibly leaving the remaining stragglers to die at the hands of the Cylons - which goes against everything he's done the last two seasons.
> 
> Even being outnumbered I believe Adama would stay and fight - at least going down with the ship - rather than cut & run only to come back later to see if there were survivors.


Actually, I see it as being totally in character for Adama. Go with me for a second here....

Adama's not the kind of man to make selfless sacrifices when he knows there are other options. He always tries to find a way to win, the right/best way to win, with minimal casualties. So he knows that staying and fighting against the Cylons does no good. With the combined resources of Pegasus and Galactica, there's no way they're taking down six Basestars. Even when fully staffed and operational (in the episode where they take down the Resurrection Ship), they barely took down three of them. With minimal staffing and hardly any Viper pilots (much less the well trained ones like Starbuck and Lee), they'd be lucky to take down just one before they were all blown to pieces.

So Adama leaves. He takes both of the military ships as well as the few civilian ships in orbit, and he FTL jumps somewhere. Because he knows that with 6 Basestars, his best bet is to live to fight another day. He puts the fleet in motion again and they become wanderers, making them harder targets for the Cylons to find. At that point, he can go right back to doing what they were doing a year ago... performing hit and run strikes against the Cylons (who, at that point, have become stationary around New Caprica).

More than anything, Adama needs time. That's why he jumps out of the system. Otherwise, he'd die protecting New Caprica, and then the planet's citizens would be left truly defenseless, with no hope of rescue.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Or, to summarize... what hefe said.


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## digdug (Jan 13, 2004)

hefe said:


> He doesn't have a choice. If Adama gets behind the wheel and cruises the virtually empty Galactica into the middle of the cylons, it's certain suicide. There's no choice BUT to leave and figure out what to do. To simply subject your only real military assets to certain immediate destruction with no hope of having any positive effect wouldn't make sense either. They gave up a lot of lives on the colonies by leaving too...


 Well I am just thinking off the cuff about this as I am still muddling through the episode in my head. It's still early here and coffee is needed.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Skittles said:


> But questions like that are probably going to occupy most of the first few episodes in Season 3. Things like "Why in the fracking hell did Starbuck leave Galactica?", "What was Gaeta smoking when he decided to become President Baltar's advisor?", "Who told Bill Adama the stache-o-doom looked good?", and other things like that are almost certainly going to take up the first few episodes once October rolls around.


Exactly right. And RDM has already said that they would be explaining things that we missed in the year that passed. He said he's got the first 2 or 3 episodes in a rough draft.

BTW, the podcast is interesting, of course, but there is mention of one specific thing in there that would be a major spoiler for most people. I was semi-distracted when I was listining to it, so I'm not sure if they were serious or not, but be warned.


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## digdug (Jan 13, 2004)

Skittles said:


> Or, to summarize... what hefe said.


 I see his ( and yours) line of thinking. I guess it will give them two plot lines at the start next season.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

vikingguy said:


> There is no real way out of this but to turn the show into a underground resistance soap with rebellion leader starbuck. There was a deliberate reason why every main character but 2 are on the planet. That is because the planet is the new focus of the show.


Again, you seem to think the future of the show is limited to what you can think up. Since you are not in charge of the show, that is not the case, but we'll see if your prediction is true next season.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

vikingguy said:


> There is no real way out of this but to turn the show into a underground resistance soap with rebellion leader starbuck. There was a deliberate reason why every main character but 2 are on the planet. That is because the planet is the new focus of the show.


Plus, I'm not sure why it is inherently better to have a 'running away through space' soap. I'm glad they're not afraid to miix things up a bit. Go ahead and take some chances...maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but you could say the same thing about keeping the story fixed to the fleeing fleet.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Considering that this episode was something I could have thought up in high school, I can see why someone would assume that what comes next is something they can think of. I still have some hope that it won't be that way in the future, but the disappointment in the writing of this episode is pretty high right now.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mulscully said:


> And I remember Adama and Rosyln going to blows about diferences in opinion on the fleet, but if Baltar (who Adam thinks might just possibly be a cylon conspiritor, maybe?) he goes along with it..


I've thought a little about the notion of Adama ceding authority to Baltar when he didn't with Laura. All I can imagine is that at the time of the original attacks, he didn't view what was left of the Colonial government to be legitimate. Not in the sense that there was anything nefarious going on, but that in light of the threat to humanity and the way Laura became President, the Military needed to step up and take control. Adama clearly believes in a democratic government, but he didn't feel what was left really was such a thing, or was really even capable of governing.

Now, however, the people have had the opportunity to have a "legitimate" say. They have had an actual election and chosen the leadership. Adama has not felt that circumstances justified unilaterally taking control again. Of course, things have just changed...


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## rich (Mar 18, 2002)

hefe said:


> BTW, the podcast is interesting, of course, but there is mention of one specific thing in there that would be a major spoiler for most people. I was semi-distracted when I was listining to it, so I'm not sure if they were serious or not, but be warned.


If you're talking about what they said right at the very end of the podcast, then yes, that was a major spoiler, with no warning about it.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

digdug said:


> Why would they even tolerate his living inside a ship with his Girls Gone Wild while they live in tents and scratch out a survival?


Yes, a leader who lives a life of luxury while many or most of the citizens live in poverty - that would certainly never happen in real life!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Did we suddenly enter into a low-budget B movie here? Unions, corrupt president, labor camps without antibiotics. Riiiiggghht. I guess the scene with the blacksmith and street preacher didn't make the cut.


Well, we did have the Chief and his union metting, which was awfully close to a street preacher. 

I don't think the characters changed in fundamental ways. Maybe Starbuck did, but we dont know what happened to her. Everyone else that we saw were exactly the same way they were before.


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## digdug (Jan 13, 2004)

MickeS said:


> Yes, a leader who lives a life of luxury while many or most of the citizens live in poverty - that would certainly never happen in real life!


I guess more to the point is that the new Pres. doesn't have the military to back him should the natives get restless; or at least it doesn't appear that is the case to me. It looks as if the military was mostly disbanded save for those few that Adama has with him. How is Baltar enforcing the peace / imposing his will?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

MickeS said:


> Well, we did have the Chief and his union metting, which was awfully close to a street preacher.


They modeled that scene after a real person and a real speech. Some protest leader from Berkeley whose name I can't recall now. But I guess he gave a famous speech that this was sort of copied from. They even contacted the man's widow to get permission from her to use the references.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

hefe said:


> They modeled that scene after a real person and a real speech. Some protest leader from Berkeley whose name I can't recall now. But I guess he gave a famous speech that this was sort of copied from. They even contacted the man's widow to get permission from her to use the references.


Jerry Rubin?? Hence the frakkin' scraggly beard?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

5thcrewman said:


> Jerry Rubin?? Hence the frakkin' scraggly beard?


No, it was a name I didn't recognize. I would have recognized Rubin.
Apparently this guy died rather young from a heart problem or something.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Before the Cylon nuclear attack on Caprica, how long had the humans been keeping their military strong in anticipation of a future attack from the Cylons? In other words how long since they had seen the Cylons? I can't remember, but I think it was a LONG time.

Granted, the Cylons knew where Caprica was so the humans had more to worry about, but it does seem pretty odd to me that after just a year on New Caprica they would let their guard down so much. I hope they take some time next season to explain this. I agree it seems out of character for Starbuck to leave Galactica without a good reason, and I'd think that would be true of much of the crew.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Ah...found it on the Battlestar wiki:

"Tyrol's union speech is an almost word for word quote of Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964. According to Ron Moore and David Eick in the podcast, they even got permission from Savio's widow to use it (even though, due to the way copyright laws work from back then, they could have just used it without permission, they felt they should get it). As a result, it's even listed in the credits: "Mario Savio speech excerpted courtesy of: Lynne Hollander Savio". 

Actor Aaron Douglas (Chief Tyrol) actually studied film of Savio, so all of the hand gestures Tyrol makes when he gives the speech are gestures that Savio actually used. "


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

DLiquid said:


> Before the Cylon nuclear attack on Caprica, how long had the humans been keeping their military strong in anticipation of a future attack from the Cylons? In other words how long since they had seen the Cylons?


The opening credits from the miniseries mentioned that no one had seen or heard from the Cylons in over 40 years. So it was at least 40 years since the last time the humans saw combat with them.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Y'know, that raises an interesting question though. Why the hell was the Colonial Fleet so well armed during those 40 years after the Cylon Wars, right before the destruction of the 12 Colonies? Putting aside the fact that Galactica was due to be decomissioned and turned into a museum, ships like the Pegasus were pretty well armed... full squadrons of Vipers, nuclear weaponry, plenty of munitions... but for what purpose? From what we've seen, the humans had no other enemies. And there were still 70+ Battlestars floating around in the miniseries. Why so many in a civilization that hadn't seen war in two generations?

It also makes you question why the hell they disarmed so quickly after founding New Caprica. I don't think it was just a matter of President Gaius ordering it, either.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Skittles said:


> But questions like that are probably going to occupy most of the first few episodes in Season 3. Things like "Why in the fracking hell did Starbuck leave Galactica?", "What was Gaeta smoking when he decided to become President Baltar's advisor?", "Who told Bill Adama the stache-o-doom looked good?", and other things like that are almost certainly going to take up the first few episodes once October rolls around.


Pardon my (probable) smeek, but: People seem to think Gaeta wouldn't work for Baltar on a moral basis; but to me that's exactly why he is working for him. Even though Baltar got the Presidency, they still covered up the deliberate fix and Tighe's involvement in it. Gaeta probably couldn't stand for that, so he resigned and went over to Baltar's side. By the time Baltar had fully slid into ruin, it was too late for Gaeta to change sides again.

Bill's 'stache seems to come out any time he's not in a position of serious responsibility; the fact that he's wearing it again suggests that he had accepted his irrelevance in the new order of things...


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

dcheesi said:



> Bill's 'stache seems to come out any time he's not in a position of serious responsibility; the fact that he's wearing it again suggests that he had accepted his irrelevance in the new order of things...


So the Adama porno "Star Whores" isn't going to be a part of Season 3? God, I am SO sick of this show taking the easy way out.


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

dcheesi said:


> Remember this isn't their full civilization, just whatever they happened to have on-board their ships at the time of the original attack. Even if they have access to all the technical documentation for all their medicines, they'd still have a hard time manufacturing them without their industrial base.


But yet they seem to have an endless supply of cigarettes and booze


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The question of whether the last half-hour actually happened or is some kind of dream/fantasy is resolved unequivocably in this interview with Moore.

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=0&id=34886


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Skittles said:


> Y'know, that raises an interesting question though. Why the hell was the Colonial Fleet so well armed during those 40 years after the Cylon Wars, right before the destruction of the 12 Colonies? Putting aside the fact that Galactica was due to be decomissioned and turned into a museum, ships like the Pegasus were pretty well armed... full squadrons of Vipers, nuclear weaponry, plenty of munitions... but for what purpose? From what we've seen, the humans had no other enemies. And there were still 70+ Battlestars floating around in the miniseries. Why so many in a civilization that hadn't seen war in two generations?
> 
> It also makes you question why the hell they disarmed so quickly after founding New Caprica. I don't think it was just a matter of President Gaius ordering it, either.


Right, that's exactly my point. On Caprica, they seemed to _know_ the Cylons were coming back. They planned for it for 40+ years. On New Caprica, they also knew the Cylons were looking for them (unless they believed the priest), yet they let their military deteriorate within a year. It would be nice if they explained the reason for this. It's not like New Caprica is some dream vacation resort, I'd rather be up in one of the ships than down there from what I saw, so you'd think at least the military would stay on the ships rather than resigning their commission and pitching a tent.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ihatecable said:


> But yet they seem to have an endless supply of cigarettes and booze


Most anyone can make either of those given just a few things that most anyone would know about.

How many people would know how to manufacture an antibiotic?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

The thing I'm surprised about, which I haven't seen anyone mention, is that they chose that particular spot on the planet to settle New Caprica. If you have an entire planet and the means to explore it completely before settling down, why would you pick such a barren, windy, cold piece of ground? And if that's the best place available on the planet, why were they so determined to settle there? Seems like if you're going to abandon your hope of finding earth and pick a spot to settle, it ought to be someplace that can reasonably provide all the things a civilization needs without too much hardship.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

devdogaz said:


> The thing I'm surprised about, which I haven't seen anyone mention, is that they chose that particular spot on the planet to settle New Caprica. If you have an entire planet and the means to explore it completely before settling down, why would you pick such a barren, windy, cold piece of ground? And if that's the best place available on the planet, why were they so determined to settle there? Seems like if you're going to abandon your hope of finding earth and pick a spot to settle, it ought to be someplace that can reasonably provide all the things a civilization needs without too much hardship.


They mentioned, 2 or 3 episodes ago, that only a certain region of the planet was suitable for habitation, and even though it was deemed habitable, the living conditions in that region would be extremely rough.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

devdogaz said:


> The thing I'm surprised about, which I haven't seen anyone mention, is that they chose that particular spot on the planet to settle New Caprica. If you have an entire planet and the means to explore it completely before settling down, why would you pick such a barren, windy, cold piece of ground? And if that's the best place available on the planet, why were they so determined to settle there? Seems like if you're going to abandon your hope of finding earth and pick a spot to settle, it ought to be someplace that can reasonably provide all the things a civilization needs without too much hardship.


That's easy to answer. New Caprica was habitable and it had the protection of the nebula. The chances of them finding something like that again were low.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DLiquid said:


> That's easy to answer. New Caprica was habitable and it had the protection of the nebula. The chances of them finding something like that again were low.


The nebula was a big issue during the election campaign because they were still hiding from the Cylons. However, if they believed Priest Al, that the Cylons were done chasing them (which it appears they did), then the nebula was no longer much of an asset and in that case, why didn't they go back to the planet where they found Athena's Tomb?


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

So, I didn't read everything above. Does anyone else think that Boomer sent the one raptor to that planet on purpose?


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## TreborPugly (May 2, 2002)

dswallow said:


> What are cy*c*lons?


Heh. I specifically noticed it the first time I wrote it, and took out the extra "c". Then I just typed the rest and didn't notice I did it again and again. Strange.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

IndyJones1023 said:


> So, I didn't read everything above. Does anyone else think that Boomer sent the one raptor to that planet on purpose?


I thought that for a second, but then the nuke beacon wouldn't be necessary.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> So, I didn't read everything above. Does anyone else think that Boomer sent the one raptor to that planet on purpose?


No, she didn't send out the coordinates, as I recall it, I think she just calculated them. It was just a mistake in the transmission to that raptor.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

DLiquid said:


> I thought that for a second, but then the nuke beacon wouldn't be necessary.


The Cylons only *said* that's how they found the humans. It's not necessary true.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

MickeS said:


> No, she didn't send out the coordinates, as I recall it, I think she just calculated them. It was just a mistake in the transmission to that raptor.


Thinking thru it, the raider brain would be doing all the work, they just needed a Cylon to interface with it to get it to work. So, she could have instructed one recipient to go to new coordinates.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

But that's not how they explained it on the show. They said the raptor was sent the wrong coordinates. Mistakes happen.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

MickeS said:


> But that's not how they explained it on the show. They said the raptor was sent the wrong coordinates. Mistakes happen.


Uh yeah, and that kinda fits my theory that Boomer could have sent them the coordinates to that planet.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Whatever. She didn't.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Whatever. She didn't.


Uh, they never say *who* sent out the coordinates to the Raptors. So it's very possible she did.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

I was just asking if anyone else thought that. No big deal there, Micke.


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## bryan314 (Nov 17, 2004)

Skittles said:


> Y'know, that raises an interesting question though. Why the hell was the Colonial Fleet so well armed during those 40 years after the Cylon Wars, right before the destruction of the 12 Colonies? Putting aside the fact that Galactica was due to be decomissioned and turned into a museum, ships like the Pegasus were pretty well armed... full squadrons of Vipers, nuclear weaponry, plenty of munitions... but for what purpose? From what we've seen, the humans had no other enemies. And there were still 70+ Battlestars floating around in the miniseries. Why so many in a civilization that hadn't seen war in two generations?


Probably for the same reasons the US/UK/USSR/etc kept a military after WWII.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

bryan314 said:


> Probably for the same reasons the US/UK/USSR/etc kept a military after WWII.


In those cases, though, we had regular (albeit lacking) communication with those nations. We had intelligence on all of them. And everyone knew that everyone else was still stockpiling weaponry.

In the case of BSG, the Cylons literally disappear for 40 years. There's no sign of them, no communication, nothing... they disappear for four decades.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Uh yeah, and that kinda fits my theory that Boomer could have sent them the coordinates to that planet.


Interesting; that could even explain why she kept cooperating with them until after that mission, even though the baby was "dead" well before that. That she actively aided them on a long, dangerous mission, didn't try to escape when the cylons were around, and *then* decided to clam up just seems odd otherwise.

I still don't think it's likely, but it is intriguing...


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

devdogaz said:


> The nebula was a big issue during the election campaign because they were still hiding from the Cylons. However, if they believed Priest Al, that the Cylons were done chasing them (which it appears they did), then the nebula was no longer much of an asset and in that case, why didn't they go back to the planet where they found Athena's Tomb?


Because they didn't really believe them. First, it's not clear that the public ever heard about the 'offer'; and even if they did, wouldn't it be worth hiding out just in case, given that a hiding place was available?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Skittles said:


> In those cases, though, we had regular (albeit lacking) communication with those nations. We had intelligence on all of them. And everyone knew that everyone else was still stockpiling weaponry.
> 
> In the case of BSG, the Cylons literally disappear for 40 years. There's no sign of them, no communication, nothing... they disappear for four decades.


The only thing I can imagine right now is that perhaps the establishment of a new home world and civilization with all that it takes to support it is so all consuming that the military is getting the short end of the resources. Before the original Cylon attack, there were whole worlds functioning and able to support and fund a military. Now, they are just re-building the engine that sustains that effort. Or at least that's as good a guess as any...


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## MassD (Sep 19, 2002)

hefe said:


> The only thing I can imagine right now is that perhaps the establishment of a new home world and civilization with all that it takes to support it is so all consuming that the military is getting the short end of the resources.


Somewhat... I think the problem is total ineptitude at the highest level of government. Baltar is a total joke as president... which they reinforced by letting you into his little Playboy mansion of his. He is calling the shots, so the military has to live with his idiocy.

The colonial civilization is falling apart with everyone's favorite, horny psychotic in charge.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

Trent Bates said:


> I've read a few times in this topic that it's hard to believe that 2 Battlestars could fight 6 Basestars. My thinking is that they might not have to.
> Once the initial strike is made, and the human population is under "control", a smaller occupational force can maintain that "control". There might not be a need for 6 Basestars. I would bet that some of them will leave soon. Maybe they will pursue the escaped fleet of human ships.
> 
> I'm in the "anything can happen" camp here. Who says the story has to follow any logical pattern anyway? Who says the Cylons have to follow our common military strategies?
> ...


So your solution is to turn the cylons into a cheesy b movie villians were they act dumb ass hell? Why should they be concerned about a few completely undermaned battlestars who are no threat to them. That should go over well insulting the viewers like most TV shows out there. They put a situation that is impossible to get out of with out insulting the viewers.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

hefe said:


> They modeled that scene after a real person and a real speech. Some protest leader from Berkeley whose name I can't recall now. But I guess he gave a famous speech that this was sort of copied from. They even contacted the man's widow to get permission from her to use the references.


Mario Savio, a 60s student radical, admired by the writers but not by me


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

NoThru22 said:


> Why do people keep saying it's out of character for Adama to have an undermanned Battlestar? Who says he had any choice in the matter? Sure he let Tigh go, but why do you need Tigh if there's no one to command? I'm sure a lot of the troops bought into the starting a new life thing and left the ship voluntarily. They could try to keep those people there, but with hope in their hearts, however misguided, it would be a losing battle.


Yep because the military has never kept people past their enlistment right? If osama sent a tape saying he will leave USA alone you think our leaders would believe him and dismantle the military? Come on what a load of crap it is just another monster plot hole you could drive a basestar through. There were more plot holes in the last 30 minutes than a whole season of hercules and xena combined.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

digdug said:


> The past two seasons we've watched as the fleets sole purpose was to save humanity and fight the Cylons. They've devised tactics and theories to help them fight the Cylons.
> 
> So after a year has passed everyone forgets about the Cylons and thinks the wasteland they've landed on is Eden? Why don't they impeach the new Pres? Hell why don't they revolt and force him from office? Why would they even tolerate his living inside a ship with his Girls Gone Wild while they live in tents and scratch out a survival?


Good questions that have no good answers because of poor writing and not planning stuff out in advance. They just went out to shock the audience and be damned with the million plot holes.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

hefe said:


> Plus, I'm not sure why it is inherently better to have a 'running away through space' soap. I'm glad they're not afraid to miix things up a bit. Go ahead and take some chances...maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but you could say the same thing about keeping the story fixed to the fleeing fleet.


It is better because it is the show I wanted to watch and invested time in. Can you imagine if the arrested development writers decided to turn the show in to a drama 2 seasons in? It would not happen because good writers know you don't change the premise of a show 2 damn years in. Bait and switch if you ask me I was promised a scifi show and now getting a resistance soap. Good shows do not need to change the premise of the show 33 episodes in. Thank god JMS did not screw around with the premis of B5 he had a vision and stuck with it. I should not be surprised what else can I expect for a guy whos claim to fame is ripping off another show.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

vikingguy said:


> It is better because it is the show I wanted to watch and invested time in. Can you imagine if the arrested development writers decided to turn the show in to a drama 2 seasons in? It would not happen because good writers know you don't change the premise of a show 2 damn years in. Bait and switch if you ask me I was promised a scifi show and now getting a resistance soap. Good shows do not need to change the premise of the show 33 episodes in. Thank god JMS did not screw around with the premis of B5 he had a vision and stuck with it. I should not be surprised what else can I expect for a guy whos claim to fame is ripping off another show.


What can I tell you except I disagree...


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

Skittles said:


> On this, we can both agree.
> 
> I just have a hard time believing that a civilization capable of faster-than-light travel and curing cancer and recycling water is capable of that kind of fashion faux pas.


Actually this is EXACTLY what I can believe. Probably the most believable part of the show. I mean really, who's more capable of this sort of poor fashion sense at your company...The IT department or the Suits?

I think what they really needed was some good cheesy disco [porn] music in the background. The have us realize its actually the music Adama's listening to as he walks over and turns up the stereo (right before breaks off the filter of the cigarette).


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## Kevdog (Apr 18, 2001)

vikingguy said:


> It is better because it is the show I wanted to watch and invested time in. Can you imagine if the arrested development writers decided to turn the show in to a drama 2 seasons in? It would not happen because good writers know you don't change the premise of a show 2 damn years in. Bait and switch if you ask me I was promised a scifi show and now getting a resistance soap. Good shows do not need to change the premise of the show 33 episodes in. Thank god JMS did not screw around with the premis of B5 he had a vision and stuck with it. I should not be surprised what else can I expect for a guy whos claim to fame is ripping off another show.


No offense, but that's a silly comparison. BSG was, is and will continue to be a drama set in space. Whether it's a "resistance show" or a "chase show" is, frankly, irrelevant. Also, I think you're jumping to conclusions. No one knows, at this point, what the next season is going to look like. It's quite possible (though probably not likely) that all of the main characters get off the planet and rejoin the fleet and it picks up where it left off. Also, Season 1 had lots of elements of being a resistance show, if on a small scale, with Sharon and Helo on Caprica for most of it.

Somewhat OT, but has anybody noticed any strange artifacting in BSG the last few episode? Vertical lines appearing in the light spots of the picture? (BSG is the only show I watch on SciFi, so I don't know if this occurs on other shows there.)


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## bentleyml (May 21, 2003)

To me I don't think they have changed the premise of the show. It is still humanity trying to survive against the Cylons. It is logical the humans would try to settle on a world.


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

I just want more fighting next season. I think my biggest complaint this season is that this was a little too much talking and not enough kicking ass. I think next season we will see some action and that is a good thing if they do it right.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

whitson77 said:


> I just want more fighting next season. I think my biggest complaint this season is that this was a little too much talking and not enough kicking ass. I think next season we will see some action and that is a good thing if they do it right.


I thought the episode this season most focused on fighting (although on a small scale) was the one with Scar, which was bashed to death here. There were valid criticisms, but sometimes I just enjoy me some good space battles.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

[ just move along, nothing to see here folks ... ]


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

[No need to respond to drew2k's removed post]


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Wow ... That was just a BIG old brain fart on my part ... Everytime I saw "Caprica" Al, my feeble, overtired, and befuddled brain kept seeing "Galactica" Al. Too many "icas!"

Sorry ... 

Now, where is that strikeout option????


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

bentleyml said:


> To me I don't think they have changed the premise of the show. It is still humanity trying to survive against the Cylons. It is logical the humans would try to settle on a world.


Not till they distanced them selves from the cylons enough. The plant was only 9 cylon jumps from caprica. The odds that a spylon would rat them out or the cylons would accidenty find them being so close are almost certain. Add to that the planet they choose was a back water **** hole. I would rather live in a tin can than live in syberia.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

vikingguy said:


> Not till they distanced them selves from the cylons enough. The plant was only 9 cylon jumps from caprica. The odds that a spylon would rat them out or the cylons would accidenty find them being so close are almost certain. Add to that the planet they choose was a back water **** hole. I would rather live in a tin can than live in syberia.


I think most of the characters on the show would agree with you. It was a Cylon collaborator (Baltar) that used this issue to seize the presidency by swaying the masses to believe it was a good idea. It was obvious to the viewers and Adama, Roslyn, etc. that it wasn't a good idea. As for the masses, we've seen that life for them in the fleet wasn't always easy, so propaganda about a new home planet safe from the Cylons would be tempting.


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## bentleyml (May 21, 2003)

Thanks DLiquid, said it better than I could have.


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

vikingguy said:


> So your solution is to turn the cylons into a cheesy b movie villians were they act dumb ass hell? Why should they be concerned about a few completely undermaned battlestars who are no threat to them. That should go over well insulting the viewers like most TV shows out there. They put a situation that is impossible to get out of with out insulting the viewers.


I've read this response three or four times to my post (#263) and I still don't see what you are getting at. It could be that I'm tired, or not paying attention, but I don't see how I suggested that the "solution is to turn the cylons into a cheesy b movie villians were they act dumb ass hell".

My point was that just because 6 Basestars showed up ready for a fight with what MAY HAVE BEEN a fully prepared set of Colonial Battlestars, it doesn't mean that 6 Basestars will hang around from that point on to deal with a defenseless planet that has been occupied with Cylon forces and two under-manned Battlestars.

Perhaps 6 Basestars will remain in orbit and some miraculous rescue will occur, but it's just as likely that the unneeded Basestars will go somewhere else (though I can't imagine why) and leave a reasonable amount of force in orbit and/or on the ground to keep the humans in line. Why would they waste 6 Basestars and all the associated "equipment" (including cylons) on a situation that could be handled by much less than that after the initial takeover is complete?

Also, aren't the Cylons still afraid of being killed at this point? They may be 9 Cylon FTL jumps from their regular ressurection facility but that's roughly (IMO) one less than they were when the Cylon Ressurection ship was destroyed. I don't get the feeling that New Caprica is really all that close to Old Caprica and they probably don't want to die out there without a chance of living again!

I'm just surprised that there is a group of people that see this plot situation as a hole that the writers have dug themselves into and can't get out of without resorting to something that will insult the viewers. It may become obvious that they had by October but it's certainly not the case right now!


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

Trent Bates said:


> I've read this response three or four times to my post (#263) and I still don't see what you are getting at. It could be that I'm tired, or not paying attention, but I don't see how I suggested that the "solution is to turn the cylons into a cheesy b movie villians were they act dumb ass hell".
> 
> My point was that just because 6 Basestars showed up ready for a fight with what MAY HAVE BEEN a fully prepared set of Colonial Battlestars, it doesn't mean that 6 Basestars will hang around from that point on to deal with a defenseless planet that has been occupied with Cylon forces and two under-manned Battlestars.
> 
> ...


Why would the cylons move the basestars logically? They have no other enemys it is not like the toasters care were they are. Lets say 3 basestars left and the adamas fleet won a battle. How do you propose they take out a few hundred toasters on the planet when they had trouble with 6? By the time they could take out even a few toasters the cylons would have more basestars there to finish the job. Like I said there is no logical way out with out cheesing out the show. If 2 or 3 basestars showed up with out that many toasters that would of been much better. That way lee and adama could regroup and win a battle with out insulting me. I guess I had really high hopes after season 1 were the plot seemed to be tight and intertwined. I loved how 1 event built into another in season 1 the characters developed logically and slowly. Season 2.5 had the plot jumping every where with wild character changes out of the blue. I miss the cylons seemingly herding the fleet they cyclon religion and the profacy roslin was a part of.

Also the cylons are pretty much immortals they can wait it out for as long as they want. The battlestar crews will eventually get old and die the cylons know this so why not leave a measly 6 battlestars in orbit permenatly?


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## bentleyml (May 21, 2003)

So because you can not see a logical way out that means the writers do not have something up their sleeves? Wow. I'm glad you are all knowing.


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## quango (Sep 25, 2005)

vikingguy said:


> Why would the cylons move the basestars logically?


Um, because they're not complete and utter idiots?

Maybe the Cylons have other things to do with the Basestars. Maybe Cylons, even if immortal, get bored sitting in ships in orbit of planets waiting for things to happen and want to do other things like explore the galaxy, find Earth, find other civilizations to cooperate with/wipe out. Maybe the Cylons have finite resources, and so six Basestars is a large commitment (we've never seen more than 2 or 3 used to pursue Galactica and Pegasus).

For that matter, it's hardly established that the Cylons have no other enemies. Maybe there are other factions of Cylons who have broken off; maybe there are old-style Cylons that didn't want to be subjugated to the human-form Cylons; maybe there are other species in the part of the galaxy that the Cylons ran off to.


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## bentleyml (May 21, 2003)

Hell the Cylons may move some of the Basestars out of there in an attempt to trick the Battlestars into returning and the humans manage to turn the trap around.


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

I typed earlier stating something to the effect that BSG's universe didn't necessarily need to follow the rules that our universe does. I 'm going to approach this "Why move Basestars" issue from the opposite point of view.

If you are an advancing/attacking fleet, Surprising your enemy with a large force all at once is the quickest way to ensure victory if the plan is sound. Leaving a large force in that area for no good reason is not a very smart thing to do. The enemy knows where the last attack was. Why leave more than you need to maintain control in a known location? That's not how it's commonly done in our world, and for good reason!

I agree that I don't think there are that many Basestars around. The original series only had a total of 4 if I remember correctly. (One was destroyed fairly early at Carillion I think.)
There might be as many as 10 in this version but I'd be completely shocked if there were more than that. For the most part, this version seems to echo the original series in it's number of ships, type of ships, etc.

One really good point that's not getting the attention it deserves is that these Cylons might be a sympathetic group that is there to help humanity fight the bad Cylons. The last few episodes have supported this concept quite a bit. They might be there to protect the Cylon/human baby from others.
In that scenario, these 6 Basestars would not be attacking the fleet of ships, they'd be helping them defend the humans. Galactica, Pegasus, and the rest didn't even exchange "gunfire" before FTL'ing out of there. The ships have no idea what was said to President Baltar or what is going on on the planet.

This is just one plausible storyline and it's different than what some are assuming must happen. Furthermore, this storyline has roots all the way back to the original miniseries with Caprica 6's "feelings" for Gaius and her interest in humanity along with Galactica Boomer's human-oriented "feelings" from being part of a family as a sleeper agent aboard Galactica.

To top it off, nobody's saying that these human-sympathetic Cylons won't be reprogrammed at a later date and turn on the humans at a crucial moment!


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

Trent Bates said:


> I typed earlier stating something to the effect that BSG's universe didn't necessarily need to follow the rules that our universe does. I 'm going to approach this "Why move Basestars" issue from the opposite point of view.
> 
> If you are an advancing/attacking fleet, Surprising your enemy with a large force all at once is the quickest way to ensure victory if the plan is sound. Leaving a large force in that area for no good reason is not a very smart thing to do. The enemy knows where the last attack was. Why leave more than you need to maintain control in a known location? That's not how it's commonly done in our world, and for good reason!
> 
> ...


Still insults me soon as I see a large portion of alkida help the USA then I will believe that would happen. They sent an invasion force for a reason you don't send 6 basestars and 100s of toasters to make friends that is just a cop out. If the wanted to make friends they would of destroyed some enemy basestars for adama as a show of faith.


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

Going off-topic for a brief moment:
Your comment about *Al-Qaeda* is completely backwards in my opinion. We are the large group and they are the small group. What can they really help us with? Do we really need their mercy? It's not the same situation and I think we'd need a different metaphor for this to be effective as an example.

Perception is a funny thing. In reality, the deployment of US military or civilian police forces looks like an invasion until you realize they are on your side.

While it may look like an invasion force to you (and me as well from one point of view), it could have simply been the total group of human-sympathetic Cylons showing up. There was no fighting going on. The Cylons that met with Baltar didn't ask for surrender, he offered it prematurely.

So far, the last 30 minutes of BSG seems to be all a matter of perception. Other than their abrupt appearance, the Cylons have not taken any menacing actions against the colonists. They didn't attack the Colonial ships. They did not attack the humans on the planet. They did not start taking hostages. They simply arrived.
To the contrary of an attack, they have already stated that they are the good Cylons that realize their place in Colonial society. Maybe they are getting stationed for an attack from the nasty Cylons? The 6 and 8 that met with Baltar did seem to be the "kinder, gentler war hero" models from a couple of episodes ago. The point is that the ending was ambiguous enough that it could pan out in many different ways without being a "cop-out" in the eyes of many viewers.

It's not logical to destroy your own ships to show that you are friendly. Nobody does that! It's a huge waste of resources and there are other ways to show good intentions.
Here, let me cut off my hands to prove that I'm not about to rob you. Of course, with my hands cut off, I won't be able to help you move that heavy couch, but at least you'll know where I stand! (Bleeding to death!) 

I don't see the point of getting too worked up yet based on how you feel the story will progress in October. You might be right about the path the writers will take, but youve aready got less than a 50% chance of being right based on the other theories here that also fit the cliffhanger.


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## jwreiner (Aug 19, 2003)

Once they settled on the planet, having the Battlestars patrolling seems to be somewhat ineffective. I guess it might have bought some time, and maybe there is nothing else to do with them. But the Cylons have a vastly superior force to draw from, so once the Colonials couldn't run, being found is the end of the road. 

It doesn't seem like there has been much discussion of the Six voice-over at the very end. Does that count as a preview?


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Okay, here's a thought that's been gestating inside my head for a while. Don't read further if you don't like speculation.





What if the humans are Cylons?

Leoben told Starbuck during his interrogation that "all this has happened before." I believe he even said that last time their roles were reversed and he was questioning her.

So, what if all this has happened before. To the point that the Cylons of yore forgot they were Cylons and created the Toasters. The Toasters gained consciousness all over again and the pattern repeats. This would help explain why it's so difficult to distinguish Cylon physiology from "human."


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

vikingguy said:


> I could see raptors being able to do real quick missions but nothing to evacuate 39000 people. To do that kind of precise jump won't they need sharon to run the cylon FTL computer?


It was unclear to me if they needed the Cylon computer to do the accurate final into the atmosphere jump, or if they just needed it to calculate the long jumps.

If the latter, then a raptor should be capable of jumping into the atmosphere; they just can't do it unassisted from a great distance. But we don't know for sure.



DLiquid said:


> Right, that's exactly my point. On Caprica, they seemed to _know_ the Cylons were coming back. They planned for it for 40+ years. On New Caprica, they also knew the Cylons were looking for them (unless they believed the priest), yet they let their military deteriorate within a year.


It terms of military as a percentage of the population, even skeleton crews for two battlestars tied up a much bigger percentage of the ~48,000 survivors than the 70+ battlestars took from the 12 colonies... 
It is hard to maintain an outsized military, and relative to the remaining population size two battlestars is a hugely oversized military. (Of course compared to the military threat they are vastly undersized...)


vikingguy said:


> Not till they distanced them selves from the cylons enough. The plant was only 9 cylon jumps from caprica. The odds that a spylon would rat them out or the cylons would accidenty find them being so close are almost certain.


Actually being _only_ nine jumps from Caprica makes New Caprica almost a needle in a haystack. Space is three dimensional and the volume formed by sphere 9 jumps in radius is HUGE. Additionally, it appears that Cylon dradus (or equivalent) is not much longer ranged than Colonial dradus. In which case it is vastly shorter ranged that a Cylon FTL jump. It would probably take hundreds of thousands of jumps to map out the 9 jump sphere's volume, and even then the nebula limits dradus range vastly, so the Cylons would have to come back and search the nebula's "blind spot" much more closely to find New Caprica. (Unless of course they get lucky and someone uses a nuke that sends out a signal detectable for over a lightyear. )


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

jwreiner said:


> Once they settled on the planet, having the Battlestars patrolling seems to be somewhat ineffective. I guess it might have bought some time, and maybe there is nothing else to do with them. But the Cylons have a vastly superior force to draw from, so once the Colonials couldn't run, being found is the end of the road.
> 
> It doesn't seem like there has been much discussion of the Six voice-over at the very end. Does that count as a preview?


I would say the reason the battlestars being ready and on patrol would be against the cylons accidently finding them. Lets say 1 or 2 basestars jumped to the planet on a random sweep. The battlestars could take em out to buy some time to evacuate some people before the cylons could send reinforcements. I would say new caprica being only 9 cylon FTL jumps from old caprica would make the odds of the cylons accidently finding the planet during thier random sweeps very likely. It is not like the rag tag fleet has gotten that far from where they started. That is part of the reason settling on that planet was so illogical to anyone with a brain it was to close to where they started making the odds of the cylons finding almost a certainty.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

Jonathan_S said:


> It was unclear to me if they needed the Cylon computer to do the accurate final into the atmosphere jump, or if they just needed it to calculate the long jumps.
> 
> If the latter, then a raptor should be capable of jumping into the atmosphere; they just can't do it unassisted from a great distance. But we don't know for sure.
> 
> ...


The way I see it is each basestar has hundreds of FTL capable raiders. If all the basestars in the region sent out even a few raiders for a logical random sweep they could cover a lot of ground really fast. Each raider could jump ever 33 minutes and then make a sweep while thier FTL drive recharges. Lets just say there are 10 basestars near old caprica from the invasion and each basestar devotes 15 raiders for the random sweep and each raider makes on average 15 jump and sweeps a day they are animals after all that would be 2250 jump and sweeps daily. At that rate I don't see why the cylons would not find them rather quickly.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

vikingguy said:


> The way I see it is each basestar has hundreds of FTL capable raiders. If all the basestars in the region sent out even a few raiders for a logical random sweep they could cover a lot of ground really fast.


Space is really big and the target is, as far as the Cylons know, moving.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

vman41 said:


> Space is really big and the target is, as far as the Cylons know, moving.


First the cylons have a vague direction of where they have been heading all this time that would eliminate a lot of space. Second the cylons know they are some what close because of the anders rescue mission. Heck if I am adama I assume that the cylons were tracking Stockwell all the way back to the fleet during the anders rescue mission and say hell no to settling on new caprica. Heck I assumed the only reason the toasters let them get away on caprica is because the cylons were planting stockwell in the fleet as yet another spy.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

GadgetFreak said:


> How much time passed between Starbuck asking for the medicine and the visitor to her tent?
> 
> Wondering if Lee sent a batch of medicine to her, delivered by a pilot. That would set up Starbuck having access to a fighter craft for next season.


Not possible: Lee was on the phone with her when the Cylons jumped in, and Pegasus and Galactica jumped out immediately.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

vikingguy said:


> Second the cylons know they are some what close because of the anders rescue mission.


How do you figure that? The rescue mission had to FTL jump a total of 10 times to get from the nebula to Caprica.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

vikingguy, no offense, but I think you're getting a little too caught up in the details. And space is VAST. Seacrhing with raiders?? That is like trying to search all of earth's water for a dead body... using scubadivers.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Okay, here's a thought that's been gestating inside my head for a while. Don't read further if you don't like speculation.
> 
> What if the humans are Cylons?
> 
> ...


Neo, is that you?


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## TreborPugly (May 2, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Okay, here's a thought that's been gestating inside my head for a while. Don't read further if you don't like speculation.
> 
> What if the humans are Cylons?
> 
> ...


I personally would find that very disappointing. We resolve the idiocy of cylons being so close to human as to be undetectable by saying that humans are cylons? When we have quite obviously evolved here on earth? Is all life on earth realy cylon creations? Ugh.

That sort of trick is fine in a completely artificial situation, with some sort of human-like alien, but since they try to tie this all back to the real earth, they don't get to change real science as part of their science fiction. Good Sci Fi keeps all the real science and then goes beyond it.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

TreborPugly said:


> I personally would find that very disappointing. We resolve the idiocy of cylons being so close to human as to be undetectable by saying that humans are cylons? When we have quite obviously evolved here on earth? Is all life on earth realy cylon creations? Ugh.
> 
> That sort of trick is fine in a completely artificial situation, with some sort of human-like alien, but since they try to tie this all back to the real earth, they don't get to change real science as part of their science fiction. Good Sci Fi keeps all the real science and then goes beyond it.


Well, hold on there, buckaroo. Let's extrapolate. Let's say that human evolved in the BSGverse and some moved on to settle on Earth. The humans back on Caprica et al created Toasters, they retaliated, evolved into human form, came back and annihilated humans. Then, in their effort to "evolve more" they kept creating human form Cylons. To the point that they created a whole new society that forgot about their ancestry.

The new human Cylons created Toasters. The Toasters rebelled. The created human form Cylons, ad nauseum. So, the humans on Earth could be real humans and the humans back on Caprica could be a form of Cylon from yore.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TreborPugly said:


> I personally would find that very disappointing. We resolve the idiocy of cylons being so close to human as to be undetectable by saying that humans are cylons? When we have quite obviously evolved here on earth? Is all life on earth realy cylon creations? Ugh.


Well, the point would be that if the Colonials are descended from Cylons, then their medical baseline would be humans descended from Cylons, not humans who evolved on Earth.

I don't really like the idea, but it DOES explain the massive logic-gap of Cylons being medically indistinguishable from humans.

Scientist: "Hmmm. Why do we humans have fiber-optic transmitters in our forearms? Perhaps it is an evolutionary dead end?"

Non-scientist: "Well, Cylons can transmit fiber-optic signals by sticking a cable into their forearms. Maybe we're geneticially related to Cylons."

Scientist (sputtering): "Why that's...that's just...CRAZY TALK!"


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

TreborPugly said:


> When we have quite obviously evolved here on earth?


In the BSG universe earthlings couldn't have evolved too much, since they share Greek mythology with the 12 colonies, right? It seems like you kind of have to throw out significant human evolution on Earth for that to work.


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## Kevdog (Apr 18, 2001)

Trent Bates said:


> While it may look like an invasion force to you (and me as well from one point of view), it could have simply been the total group of human-sympathetic Cylons showing up. There was no fighting going on. The Cylons that met with Baltar didn't ask for surrender, he offered it prematurely.


Actually, I think Caprica 6's voiceover at the end pretty much indicates that the Cyclons have every intention of establishing dominion over the humans. Her quote (I don't remember it exactly) about ruling like gods was fairly clear in that regard.


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

vikingguy said:


> Each raider could jump ever 33 minutes and then make a sweep while thier FTL drive recharges.


There's no indication that the Cylons need 33 minutes to recharge. As I remember it, it took 33 minutes to calculate new jump coordinates and distribute them to all of the fleet.
Subsequent episodes showed the Cylons being able to jump pretty quickly.

It seems that some are viewing a FTL jump as a predefined distance and possibly a predefined direction as well. I don't believe it has to be equidistant leaps like pawns on a checkerboard. If they always jumped the maximum allowable distance and headed it the same direction, It would be easy to track the Colonial fleet back in the first episode and the show would be over!

There are 3 factors to take into account with these jumps that would make it extremely difficult to find anything without a signal to home in on! There's the horizontal and vertical axis of the direction headed as well as the distance traveled in each jump. These three factors should be changed each time the fleet jumps.

Consider this example: 
If you have a friend walk 10 miles due North and you walk 10 miles just a degree or two off of due North. There will be a point in your journey where you won't be able to see each other because you are too far way. Both of you would be going roughly the same speed and the same distance and almost the same direction but you'd still lose each other long before you'd reach that 10 mile mark in a simple 2 dimension situation. Add the ability to fly in the air (at walking speed) for the 3rd dimension and it becomes much harder to find each other. Finally, add the ability for your friend to stop anywhere he wants on that 10 mile due North path and you wouldn't be able to find him without a lot of searching. Finally, allow your friend to change direction, speed, and distance each time he stops and you'd be lucky to ever see him again. Give your friend a flaregun as a substitute for a nuclear warhead and you have a decent chance of finding him if you are looking the correct direction at the time and are close enough to see it!

FTL jumps can't be predefined distances every time. New Caprica can't be exactly 9 Cylon FTL jumps from Old Caprica. Nothing in nature is that exact. What if New Caprica is 8.5 FTL jumps away and the Cylons jump 10 instead? How many million miles could that be between the Cylons and New Caprica? Without a nuclear signature or other tracking method, it's feasible in my opinion that the Cylons might have never found that planet. It's nebula/cloud cover might have prevented anyone/anything from seeing that it was there at all. What does a dead spot look like in a universe of dead spots?

On top of that, where's the proof that the Cylons know that the Colonials were jumping in Cylon FTL increments? Where's the proof that they know which direction the Colonials went on the 1st jump, the 2nd jump, etc.? There's no indication that Cylons can track even half the distance of a Colonial jump. (Watch "33" again and you'll see what I mean.)
And, IF Brother Al was able to relay their position when he arrived on the Galactica, it was still before the fleet jumped in an unknown direction and unknown distance to New Caprica! Past episodes have shown that the Cylons can't send signals very far unassisted.

As Jonathan_S said, it's like looking for a needle in a (huge) haystack!


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

A Cyclon?


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

Kevdog said:


> Actually, I think Caprica 6's voiceover at the end pretty much indicates that the Cyclons have every intention of establishing dominion over the humans. Her quote (I don't remember it exactly) about ruling like gods was fairly clear in that regard.


Watching the ending now...
Sharon: *As long as you offer no resistance, You won't be harmed.*
Gaius: *How do I know that?*
Loeben: *You don't. You also don't have any choice.*

I'd like to point out that both Sharon and 6's reactions during the surrender sequence made them look as though things weren't going quite the way they wanted it to.

Later is 6's voiceover which I won't repeat. It does sound ominous and I do agree. We don't know if this is Caprica 6 2.0 or another 6.


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## questfortruth (Feb 18, 2005)

Somebody may have already made this point, but why would the Cylons keep 6 basestars in orbit over a (mostly) defenseless human colony that has already surrendered to them? Besides, one well-placed Nuke from a single basestar could kill everyone on the planet, since they're settled in one isolated spot.

The other 5 ships will probably leave and try to hunt down the rest of the fleet.


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

5thcrewman said:


> A Cyclon?


That, or perhaps a "cyclon" is a recycled Cylon! Or, a "cyclon" could be a spinning Cylon. Maybe it's a Cylon version of one of my vacuum cleaner!


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

questfortruth said:


> Somebody may have already made this point, but why would the Cylons keep 6 basestars in orbit over a (mostly) defenseless human colony that has already surrendered to them? Besides, one well-placed Nuke from a single basestar could kill everyone on the planet, since they're settled in one isolated spot.
> 
> The other 5 ships will probably leave and try to hunt down the rest of the fleet.


Now that's a novel concept!  I could really get behind an idea like that and I do like the way you are thinking!
Joking aside, I think it's a definite possibility that would allow the Colonial fleet to effect a rescue next season. Thank you for stating the concept better than I was able to do!

_Pardon me for a while, I've got some work to do!_


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Trent Bates said:


> There's no indication that the Cylons need 33 minutes to recharge. As I remember it, it took 33 minutes to calculate new jump coordinates and distribute them to all of the fleet.
> Subsequent episodes showed the Cylons being able to jump pretty quickly.


I don't think it takes 33 minutes to calculate a jump and transmit to the fleet. It may take a couple of minutes, but not 33. I believe the 33 minutes is roughly the time it took for a signal transmitted from a spylon within the fleet to get back to the Cylon fleet since the transmission is not FTL. I assume that the colonial fleet can only jump as far as it is known to be safe. So, I'm guessing that their long range sensors can only see as far as 33 light minutes with enough resolution with which to determine wether a jump point is obstacle free for the fleet to jump into. Any further out and they would risk jumping into an asteroid field for instance.

They have already jumped beyond charted space. So their jumps have to be relatively short. If it was within their known space, they can probably jump around at will with little risk of jumping into objects. Jumping into another ship is probably the only risk. And that can be minimized by having registered blind jump points for any given ship.

They've expressed how insanely stupid a blind jump is (by the reaction of the Pegasus crew to Admiral Ro's order to blind jump during the Cylon first strike).

Okay. I've aparrently thought about this way too much.

Edit: Now that I remember "33" a little more, I seem to recall that Galactica would launch vipers to buy a little more time. So I guess that perhaps it was a combination of finding a jump target and calculating the jump. But I believe my 33 light minutes for the spylon message to reach the cylong fleet is still the reason that the cylong fleet was always 33 minutes behind the colonial fleet.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Trent Bates said:


> Watching the ending now...
> Sharon: *As long as you offer no resistance, You won't be harmed.*
> Gaius: *How do I know that?*
> Loeben: *You don't. You also don't have any choice.*


Actually, you are confusing Leoben and Doral. Doral, the press secretary, is the one seen during the conquering of New Caprica.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Hmm it occurs to me that all the debate over how the Cylons are going to move those 6 basestars around New Caprica may be based on a bad premise.

We seem to be assuming that the Cylons actually want to control or destroy the colonial fleet and the survivors. So our arguments have been about whether that goal would be more logically approached by:
1) tying up 6 basestars around New Caprica to keep the fleet away from the Colonials, and/or to destroy the fleet if it attempts a rescue mission.
2) leaving a smaller force to control New Caprica while the other basestars hunt down the remainder of the fleet.

But the Cylon's have stated a goal all the way back in Season 1 to use the Fleet to lead them to Earth. If that is still their long range goal then they may want to set up their strategy in a tactically unsound manner. Basically use this show of force to scare the Colonials back into flight, convincing them that colonising new worlds is a bad idea, so that the Cylons can continue to try to track them to Earth.

In this scenario it would make sense, from the Cylon point of view, to reduce their forces around New Caprica enough that a rescue mission from the fleet can succeed. Because until the population of New Caprica is freed the fleet is unlikely to continue the search for Earth. But after the population is freed they will be extremely reluctant to stop and try to settle any new virgin planet, because they would be concerned that the Cylons would find them again. They would be strongly motivated to continue search for Earth, which they believe has the ability to protect them from the Cylons.

Maybe the Cylons do have a plan; and this was just a wrinkle in it because the Colonials had stopped playing along (i.e. leading the Cylons to Earth)


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## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

vikingguy said:


> The way I see it is each basestar has hundreds of FTL capable raiders. If all the basestars in the region sent out even a few raiders for a logical random sweep they could cover a lot of ground really fast. Each raider could jump ever 33 minutes and then make a sweep while thier FTL drive recharges. Lets just say there are 10 basestars near old caprica from the invasion and each basestar devotes 15 raiders for the random sweep and each raider makes on average 15 jump and sweeps a day they are animals after all that would be 2250 jump and sweeps daily. At that rate I don't see why the cylons would not find them rather quickly.


You're assuming that Dradus range is equal to or close to equal to a maximum FTL jump range. From what I've seen, a maximum range FTL jump could be hundreds of thousands if not millions of times beyond the range of an FTL jump. There would be tremendous volumes of space that you'd be skipping right over every time you jumped. The only way to make a halfway thorough sweep of the entire space between 2 jump coordinates would be to traverse it at sublight speeds which could take decades.

As an analogy let imagine that a Dradus sweep is you on the ground taking a photograph. An FTL jump is a non-stop flight from L.A. to New York. You'd have great shots of the airports at L.A. and New York, but you wouldn't have anything of the entire cities, let alone the entire country in between. To get the complete "scan" with your camera you would have to walk around all of L.A., and then walk all the way to New York being sure to walk up every street, canyon, and mountain ridge along the way to get complete coverage.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Trent Bates said:


> Later is 6's voiceover which I won't repeat. It does sound ominous and I do agree. We don't know if this is Caprica 6 2.0 or another 6.


I wish someone would repeat it 

My recording cut off right at the end: I saw much of the stuff others apparently missed such as the surrender, toasters marching, and Starbuck and the Chief watching, but I didn't hear any voice-over...


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

madscientist said:


> I wish someone would repeat it
> 
> My recording cut off right at the end: I saw much of the stuff others apparently missed such as the surrender, toasters marching, and Starbuck and the Chief watching, but I didn't hear any voice-over...


But... If we repeat it, it wouldn't drive you crazy wondering what it said! 

Hold on a minute and I'll watch it again...

This reminds me of an awful trick someone played on me back in high school! Someone once wrote in my yearbook something to the effect of, "Everytime you read this, you'll wonder who wrote it." It still drives me nuts!


----------



## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

Mike Farrington said:


> I don't think it takes 33 minutes to calculate a jump and transmit to the fleet. It may take a couple of minutes, but not 33. I believe the 33 minutes is roughly the time it took for a signal transmitted from a spylon within the fleet to get back to the Cylon fleet since the transmission is not FTL.


I think that makes more sense. The rest of the stuff you wrote makes a lot of sense too!
Of course, if that was the intended manner in which it works, it pushes my theory of varying jump distances in the "33" episode out the window. The concept still stands for other situations I guess.


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

Skittles said:


> Actually, you are confusing Leoben and Doral. Doral, the press secretary, is the one seen during the conquering of New Caprica.


Ooops. Sorry, I keep getting their names mixed up!


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## RunnerFL (May 10, 2005)

NoThru22 said:


> Why hasn't anyone *****ed that they had scenes from this episode in the pre-show credits? Including the scene of the Cloud 9 blowing up! I spend all this time trying to avoid spoilers and they say "ha ha, F you!"


They've been doing that all season long... RDM refers to it as his omage to Space 1999 which also showed parts of the episode in the opening credits like that.


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## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

madscientist said:


> Not possible: Lee was on the phone with her when the Cylons jumped in, and Pegasus and Galactica jumped out immediately.


Ignoring the medicine aspect, it still might be possible for Lee to have launched a single fighter, or radioed to one that was already out to go find Starbuck.

On the other hand, are we supposed to recognize the person that asked for her. They shoe him blurry (from Anders viewpoint) and then focus in on him, almost as if they were trying to make the viewer go "aha!" like it was a cylon that we have seen before.

Have we seen that actor/character before? I watched it again last night -- any one get a good look at his armband that they flash as he is walking into the tent?

I think this scene is a pretty important setup for next season, but I am not sure what it means.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> Now that I remember "33" a little more, I seem to recall that Galactica would launch vipers to buy a little more time. So I guess that perhaps it was a combination of finding a jump target and calculating the jump. But I believe my 33 light minutes for the spylon message to reach the cylong fleet is still the reason that the cylong fleet was always 33 minutes behind the colonial fleet.


Now that I think about it a little more. I think the reason the vipers were launch was to hold off the cylons while the last ship has jumped. Due to the constant jumping, some of lesser ships in the fleet were suffering fatigue and couldn't keep up the pace.

Can you tell I don't own the DVDs? I have to keep pulling this stuff from my terrible memory.


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

[Side Topic]
Anybody else saw "Al the Devil" from QL - The Boogieman, in Stockwell's facial expressions?
[/Side Topic]


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

Mike Farrington said:


> Now that I think about it a little more. I think the reason the vipers were launch was to hold off the cylons while the last ship has jumped. Due to the constant jumping, some of lesser ships in the fleet were suffering fatigue and couldn't keep up the pace.
> 
> Can you tell I don't own the DVDs? I have to keep pulling this stuff from my terrible memory.


I've got the DVDs but I don't have time to watch them to supplement mine.  I do believe you are correct though. 
The part of the episode that made me believe that it was something on the Colonial side that dictated 33 minutes was that they started working on the next jump coordinates as soon as a jump was complete. And they seemed to working hard at it for the entire 33 minutes before the next jump.
Granted, they did wait longer than 33 minutes at least once, but I got the feeling that it was simply to see if they lost the Cylons or not.

Like someone else said, (wasn't it Johnathan_S) we are probably thinking more about this issue than the writers did!


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## prospect60 (Aug 27, 2004)

Epilogue Voiceover by Six

"Humanity has surrendered.
The war is finally over.
We must now fulfill our true destiny.
So we will love them, and take care of them.
Show them the glory of peace.
And like god, our infinite mercy will be matched only by our power, and complete control. "


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## hdwest61 (Mar 7, 2006)

Yea... the same model that they found at the ammo dump in the premire


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

hdwest61 said:


> Yea... the same model that they found at the ammo dump in the premire


Now I'm getting confused again. Didn't they find the "Doral" model at the Ammo station? Isn't that how Adama recognized the Galactica Doral at the press conference?

It seems to me (and it was stated earlier in this thread) that the Cylon that asked for Thrace at the tent was the same model that she interrogated and Roslyn sent out the airlock afterwards. He's known as Loeben.

And as I was corrected earlier, Doral was with 6 and Sharon as they talked with Baltar as he surrendered.

I probably have all of this entirely backwards, but I don't think so!


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

GadgetFreak said:


> Ignoring the medicine aspect, it still might be possible for Lee to have launched a single fighter, or radioed to one that was already out to go find Starbuck.
> 
> On the other hand, are we supposed to recognize the person that asked for her. They shoe him blurry (from Anders viewpoint) and then focus in on him, almost as if they were trying to make the viewer go "aha!" like it was a cylon that we have seen before.
> 
> ...


It was the same model that Starbuck interrogated and that Roslyn had thrown out the airlock. I'm guessing it's a resurrection of the actual one she tortured.


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## prospect60 (Aug 27, 2004)

> ow I'm getting confused again. Didn't they find the "Doral" model at the Ammo station? Isn't that how Adama recognized the Galactica Doral at the press conference?


No, Leoben was at the ammo supply station and Adama killed. Also that was the model that Starbuck tortured and then Roslin spaced.

Doral was originally outed by Baltar though he was just making an educated guess with a little of Phanton Six's help. Later on it turned out that Doral was actually a Cylon. I think he also the suicide bomber in one of the early episodes.


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

Boy, I was off!  No wonder I keep getting the two confused!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Trent Bates said:


> Boy, I was off!  No wonder I keep getting the two confused!


Well, if you ask me, all those white Spylon boys look alike.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Leoben told Starbuck during his interrogation that "all this has happened before." I believe he even said that last time their roles were reversed and he was questioning her.


that's the first thing I thought about when Leoben came to Anders' tent and asked about Kara...he was going to interrogate her "as he's done before"...


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

I wonder how Loeben knew to come to *that* tent and ask for Kara. I wonder if we will ever find out! Maybe he was going around to all the tents and asking the same question.


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## prospect60 (Aug 27, 2004)

It's possible that if Xena/D'Anna is on the planet she could have told him. Since most of the colonists wouldn't know he's a Cylon he could likely just have asked anybody where she was.

I'm still betting that it has something more to do with The Farm episode than the "Flesh and Bone" interrogation.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

prospect60 said:


> Since most of the colonists wouldn't know he's a Cylon he could likely just have asked anybody where she was.


Actually, they dispersed his picture all around the ships when they were looking for more of him. He would be a high target.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

I think it was a lot simpler....

Loeben: [To random human #1] Where can I find Starbuck?
Random Human #1: I think her tent is somewhere over there [pointing in general area]
Loeben: [To random human #2] Where can I find Starbuck?
Random Human #2: That's her tent right over there [pointing to Kara's tent]

I don't think it's any more intriging than that. Heck, we don't even need human #2 if human #1 knew.

This scenario would work both if they humans knew he was a cylon and if they didn't know. The former out of fear, the latter out of common courtesy. Sure, some of her military buddies might say "Frak you" if they knew he was a cylon, but I'm sure there are countless civies that wouldn't have the guts to stand up to a Cylon.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

prospect60 said:


> Epilogue Voiceover by Six


Did you have a timestamp for that epilogue? I can't find it on my recording (I had to record the finale shown by SciFi a second time with padding since the time didn't match the guide data).


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## mcdougll (Jan 27, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> [snip]
> But the Cylon's have stated a goal all the way back in Season 1 to use the Fleet to lead them to Earth.
> [snip]


Whoa there. Maybe my memory is going, but where/when did any Cylon state that their goal was to find Earth? Really, if that is true, I'd like to know what episode(s) it was in. 

mcd


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## prospect60 (Aug 27, 2004)

It happens at around 1:31 and lasts for 30 seconds. On Monday's (3rd) telecast it starts as Richard Huddlin's credit as Production Director flashes on the screen and Roslin's face in shown. I can't remember if this is exactly when it appeared in the initial showing. During the 2nd showing as the credits roll all you here was schilling for Coming Next on SciFi "Fortress 2" and promo for Dr Who.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Going back to the 33 minute debate, I thought the reason they waited 33 minutes was not due to any capacity issues but because that was how long it took before the Cylons showed up each time. Eventually, after running for several days at least, some of the ships "got tired" and needed a little more time, which is why they launched the vipers and tried to buy more time. But I don't remember that it was taking them the entire 33 minutes to calculate the jump and distribute the coordinates. It was merely how long they had to wait before the Cylons showed up every time.

Of course, I only saw the episode once and it was a long time ago so if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected momentarily.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

devdogaz said:


> Going back to the 33 minute debate, I thought the reason they waited 33 minutes was not due to any capacity issues but because that was how long it took before the Cylons showed up each time. Eventually, after running for several days at least, some of the ships "got tired" and needed a little more time, which is why they launched the vipers and tried to buy more time. But I don't remember that it was taking them the entire 33 minutes to calculate the jump and distribute the coordinates. It was merely how long they had to wait before the Cylons showed up every time.
> 
> Of course, I only saw the episode once and it was a long time ago so if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected momentarily.


That's right.

Because not only that, they weren't necessarily calculating somewhere specific, like they did when they had to network the computers together. They were just jumping willy nilly. As long as everyone jumped to the same coordinates, as was well and good.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> That's right.
> 
> Because not only that, they weren't necessarily calculating somewhere specific, like they did when they had to network the computers together. They were just jumping willy nilly. As long as everyone jumped to the same coordinates, as was well and good.


I think if they were jumping willy-nilly they ran the risk of jumping into a panet or star.

They were only able to jump 33 light minutes for reasons not fully clear to us. My best guesses are:
1) Sensors. Since they are in uncharted space they must rely on the resolution of their sensors to deterime safe jump destinations.
2) 33 light minutes is the maximum distance the least capible ship in the fleet can jump (least common denominator).

The show has given the impression that blind jumps are quite dangerous.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> I think if they were jumping willy-nilly they ran the risk of jumping into a panet or star.
> 
> They were only able to jump 33 light minutes for reasons not fully clear to us. My best guesses are:
> 1) Sensors. Since they are in uncharted space they must rely on the resolution of their sensors to deterime safe jump destinations.
> ...


Not at all. In fact, the episode illustrated that it was 33 minutes *because* that's how long it took the signal in the Astral Queen to reach the Cylons, them to calculate a jump, and pop in on top of them.

Once the Astral Queen lagged behind, they went beyond the 33 minute mark.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Not at all. In fact, the episode illustrated that it was 33 minutes *because* that's how long it took the signal in the Astral Queen to reach the Cylons, them to calculate a jump, and pop in on top of them.
> 
> Once the Astral Queen lagged behind, they went beyond the 33 minute mark.


Wasn't it the Olympic Cruiser? The Astral Queen is the prison ship, IIRC.

I agree that they have shown that blind jumps are not smart. However, I see no correlation between the 33 minutes shown in the first episode and the amount of time it takes to calculate a "safe" jump. That amount of time was simply the time it took the Cylons to catch them. Once the Olympic Cruiser was destroyed and the Cylons weren't right on their tail, they didn't have to jump so often, and we've seen them make many jumps throughout the series that didin't require 33 minutes to calculate.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

devdogaz said:


> Wasn't it the Olympic Cruiser? The Astral Queen is the prison ship, IIRC.


Oh, oops. Yeah. That. I'm from Picon. I hate the Capricans anyway.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Oh, oops. Yeah. That. I'm from Picon. I hate the Capricans anyway.


I hear that! They're soooo arrogant! Like, hello?! My planet was attacked too!!


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## TreborPugly (May 2, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> I think if they were jumping willy-nilly they ran the risk of jumping into a panet or star.
> 
> They were only able to jump 33 light minutes for reasons not fully clear to us. My best guesses are:
> 1) Sensors. Since they are in uncharted space they must rely on the resolution of their sensors to deterime safe jump destinations.
> ...


What Indy said. "33 light minutes" didn't have anything to do with this. Do you know how small a distance 33 light minutes is? Jupiter is 35 light minutes from the Earth. The nearest star to earth is over 2 million light minutes away. Furthermore, if they were jumping 33 light minutes every 33 minutes, then why bother to jump at all?

33 minutes just happened to be the time between when they jumped and when the cyclons managed to follow them. It didn't matter why, really. Basically each time they jumped, they hoped that the cylons would lose their trail. But the cylons kept finding them.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

mcdougll said:


> Whoa there. Maybe my memory is going, but where/when did any Cylon state that their goal was to find Earth? Really, if that is true, I'd like to know what episode(s) it was in.
> 
> mcd


Hmm. It's possible I was just remembering our discussions here during the first season. (That sort of thing can happen when you post because you can't sleep at 4:30 in the morning due to jet lag)

I know there was a lot of speculation all the way back to the episode "33" that the Cylons were playing with the fleet, and they might be doing so to push them into finding Earth and following them there.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Maybe you're confusing them with the Wraith?


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

Jonathan_S said:


> Hmm. It's possible I was just remembering our discussions here during the first season. (That sort of thing can happen when you post because you can't sleep at 4:30 in the morning due to jet lag)
> 
> I know there was a lot of speculation all the way back to the episode "33" that the Cylons were playing with the fleet, and they might be doing so to push them into finding Earth and following them there.


That is the way I thought during season 1. I thought the cylons were herding the fleet to kobal to complete some complex set of profacys that span both the colonial and cylon religions. Then soon as the pegasus shows up the profacys and religion and cyclon plans go right out the window.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Not at all. In fact, the episode illustrated that it was 33 minutes *because* that's how long it took the signal in the Astral Queen to reach the Cylons, them to calculate a jump, and pop in on top of them.
> 
> Once the Astral Queen lagged behind, they went beyond the 33 minute mark.


I realize that 33 minutes is how long it took the signal to reach the cylons. I'm sure they can calculate the jump almost immediately (being a race of machines and all). So if it took the signal 33 minutes to reac the cylons, then it would stand to reason that the colonial fleet is jumping 33 light minutes (a measure of distance) at a time.

I do think that the ships are quite capable to jumping further, but I think they weren't because of the reasons I gave. They either can't safely scout out a safe jump destination at a distance beyond 33 light minutes, or one of the fleet ships was holding them back. Remember, they are now in uncharted space and can't just jump around blindly.

Who's to say they jumped beyond 33 light minutes once the Astral Queen failed to jump? Since the Astral Queen wasn't there to to transmit the beacon, that's why the cylons didn't follow 33 minutes later. It wasn't because the colonial fleet jumped further away, it was because the cylons no longer had a that beacon to follow.

-Mike


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

TreborPugly said:


> What Indy said. "33 light minutes" didn't have anything to do with this. Do you know how small a distance 33 light minutes is? Jupiter is 35 light minutes from the Earth. The nearest star to earth is over 2 million light minutes away. Furthermore, if they were jumping 33 light minutes every 33 minutes, then why bother to jump at all?


Why bother? Because they had these big mean basestars trying to wipeout the last of humanitty.

Yes. The fleet can jump further than 33 light minutes when a raptor safely scouts ahead. They are no longer in charted territory, so they just make sure their landing zones are clear. Not only must the LZ be clear now, but they need to scan to be relatively sure that it will also be clear when they jump in (since the light they see from the LZ is 33 minutes old).

But with the cylons hot on their tail, they likely aren't able to scout further than 33 light minutes due to the capabilities of their long rance sensors.

Anyway, that's just my take on the reason they could only get 33 light minutes away from the cylons at a time.

-Mike


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## darthrsg (Jul 25, 2005)

<insert>DEAD HORSE</insert>


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## darthrsg (Jul 25, 2005)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Actually, they dispersed his picture all around the ships when they were looking for more of him. He would be a high target.


do you memorize the terror alerts or missing kid pics at wal-mart?
the spylons are great social engineers. rule number one: just ask for it.


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

darthrsg said:


> <insert>DEAD HORSE</insert>


I disagree. Somewhere within all of our concepts of this issue is something that makes sense. Calmly discussing technical points is far better than arguing over opinions! (IMO) 

What about the idea that there might be "harmonic" effects of the signal-to-the-Cylons that exist above the speed of light? A radio signal can travel at 186,000 miles per second but the "harmonic" of that signal could be traveling at 372,000 miles per second, or quadruple that speed or 9 times that speed, etc.

That would allow the signal to reach the Cylons in 33 minutes but also allow much greater distances in the FTL jumps. I don't know if radio harmonics above light speed are possible, but they certainly exist for slower signal sources and radio waves don't really carry any mass that I can think of. Why not?

You might be right about the pictures at Wal-mart. But we haven't just watched a majority of our civilization disappear nor are we being hunted to extinction. Those kinds of things might make you sit up and take notice of possible Cylon spys a bit more.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

darthrsg said:


> do you memorize the terror alerts or missing kid pics at wal-mart?
> the spylons are great social engineers. rule number one: just ask for it.


that's a little different...they distributed a picture of a spylon that is trying to kill them and they are trying to run away from the cylons who killed everything and everyone they know...yep...I'd memorize the picture and I'm sure every single one would memorize the picture...

as for the 33 minutes debate, it does take a while to calculate the next jump...they had to work frantically at it to do it before the cylons arrived every 33 minutes...so it's safe to assume that it takes "a while" but less than 33 minutes...the fact that they jump now right away means nothing since a new jump coordinate would be calculated and loaded in the computer and ready at a moment's notice...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The fact that the Cylons have an FTL communication system is proven beyond any reasonable doubt by the sheer insanity of the notion that the Colonials would only jump 33 light-minutes at a time, as noted above. At 33 light-minute jumps, it would take thousands of years just to get from one star to another (which they're already done many times).


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> Who's to say they jumped beyond 33 light minutes once the Astral Queen failed to jump? Since the Astral Queen wasn't there to to transmit the beacon, that's why the cylons didn't follow 33 minutes later. It wasn't because the colonial fleet jumped further away, it was because the cylons no longer had a that beacon to follow.


Since the beacon had to be undetectable, perhaps it took 30+ minutes to figure out where it was (identifying and triangulating known gamma ray sources) and transmitting it to the cylons at a very low bitrate.


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

So... Nobody liked my "harmonic" idea then?  
No response needed, I'm just kidding!

Vman41's idea sounds kind of good! (Maybe they were using a 300 baud modem and were having trouble getting connected. Maybe it was an acoustic coupler device instead.  )
Anubys's point about having jump coordinates ready to go is well taken as well! I hadn't really thought of that. (But I seem to remember a situation in which they stated as much on the show!)

Mike Farrington, I like your train of thought. I really do. But I'm swayed by Trebor's arguement that 33 light minutes isn't that far in astronomical terms.
Have I mentioned my "harmonics" theory yet?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Trent Bates said:


> So... Nobody liked my "harmonic" idea then?
> Have I mentioned my "harmonics" theory yet?


what does playing the harmonica have to do with anything


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

Everyone knows the harmonica and the kazoo are the universal intruments of peace!


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Trent Bates said:


> Mike Farrington, I like your train of thought. I really do. But I'm swayed by Trebor's arguement that 33 light minutes isn't that far in astronomical terms.


Thanks. I'm glad a few people find this discussion as interesting as I do. 

True, 33 light minutes isn't far. I'm right there with you.

Do we know if the 12 colonies are within the same solar system.? I would guess that they aren't. I'm sure the space between the 12 colonies is very well mapped (as well as some of the outlying space). But remember that Galactica and the fleet have jumped "beyond the red line" as Gaeta put it in the mini-series.

So, while in known space they could make VERY large jumps with great precision because they knew their LZ was clear. They probably have charts of all space debris, asteroids, etc, etc.

Now that they are outside of mapped space, they have to be much more careful with their jumps.

*I DO BELIEVE THEY CAN JUMP FURTHER THAN 33 LIGHT MINUTES EVEN NOW. *

However, with the cylons hot on their tail during "33" they didn't have the luxury of properly mapping out LZs. They didn't have the time to do detailed long range surveys (either using their astronomy science teams or scouting raptors).

With the cylons hot on their tail, they had to make quick, safe jumps to stay alive. Not time to scout, no time to survey. Just go with what they can see within tactical sensor range.

Now that they don't have someone or something sending out a beacon (probably something identical to that white device found on the dradis console), they are able to make larger, well-informed FTL jumps.

Now that they've mapped space during their journey, ships are able to jump back fairly safely to Caprica and such without having to make itsy bitsy 33 light minute jumps.

On a side-note. I wonder if Galactica, or the newer Pegasus, is powerful enough to jump all the way back to Caprica in one jump?

-Mike


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> Now that they've mapped space during their journey, ships are able to jump back fairly safely to Caprica and such without having to make itsy bitsy 33 light minute jumps.


That doesn't make sense. They must have been jumping haphazardly. Else, if they were jumping in a straight line, the Cylons would have been able to predict their jumps.

So, since they've been scattershot, the only way to jump back to Caprica would be to repeat their windy way home.



Mike Farrington said:


> On a side-note. I wonder if Galactica, or the newer Pegasus, is powerful enough to jump all the way back to Caprica in one jump?


No. They established that only the Cylon raider could jump that far back. Which is why the raptors made 9 (or 10) jumps to retrieve the Anders and the rebels.


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## mcdougll (Jan 27, 2003)

Mike Farrington said:


> Why bother? Because they had these big mean basestars trying to wipeout the last of humanitty.
> 
> Yes. The fleet can jump further than 33 light minutes when a raptor safely scouts ahead. They are no longer in charted territory, so they just make sure their landing zones are clear. Not only must the LZ be clear now, but they need to scan to be relatively sure that it will also be clear when they jump in (since the light they see from the LZ is 33 minutes old).
> 
> ...


Sorry, maybe you missed it in the earlier post by TreborPugly. 33 light-minutes is a VERY small distance, galactically speaking (sorry for the pun  ). As stated before, Jupiter is 35 light minutes away from the sun (actually I think it's more like 41, but who's counting). While that might be a big distance for you & me, FTL-jumping that distance would be like driving your car from the garage down a 30 foot driveway to get the mail. Sorry, make that a 33 foot driveway.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> That doesn't make sense. They must have been jumping haphazardly. Else, if they were jumping in a straight line, the Cylons would have been able to predict their jumps.
> 
> So, since they've been scattershot, the only way to jump back to Caprica would be to repeat their windy way home.


They've been mapping space along the way. Some parts are better mapped than others. For example, the route taken during the two-hundred-thirty-something jumps they made during "33" probably isn't well mapped.

They don't have to follow the exact route. They can vary as far as they have safe charts for. Plus, they can always vary distance of jumps. The cylons certainly aren't trolling the entire path back to Caprica.



IndyJones1023 said:


> No. They established that only the Cylon raider could jump that far back. Which is why the raptors made 9 (or 10) jumps to retrieve the Anders and the rebels.


I know the raptors can't jump that far. But what about Battlestars? Can they jump further than the smaller ships?

I assumed jumping a battlestar back to rescue a couple dozen people was out of the question, not for logistic reasons but for the safety of the fleet. And the safety of the ship. A big ship in orbit of a hostile planet becomes one HUGE target. Whereas the raptors jumped straight into the atmosphere to effect their rescue.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Trent Bates said:



> What about the idea that there might be "harmonic" effects of the signal-to-the-Cylons that exist above the speed of light? A radio signal can travel at 186,000 miles per second but the "harmonic" of that signal could be traveling at 372,000 miles per second, or quadruple that speed or 9 times that speed, etc.
> 
> That would allow the signal to reach the Cylons in 33 minutes but also allow much greater distances in the FTL jumps. I don't know if radio harmonics above light speed are possible, but they certainly exist for slower signal sources and radio waves don't really carry any mass that I can think of. Why not?


A couple problems.

First, the harmonics you're talking about here occur in frequency, not velocity. I suppose there could there be a theory in quantum physics to explain a faster than light transmission. At least in a sci-fi sense.

Second, 33 minutes doesn't refer to the distance jumped, only the time between jumps. In fact, 33 light minutes wouldn't necessarily be meaningful since the F in FTL stands for "fast*er*."

Radio waves do carry mass. Photons. In fact, electromagnetic waves (radio, light, etc.) can actually be deflected by gravitational interaction.

But even so, these details don't really matter in the BSG universe. Plot drives physics.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

mcdougll said:


> Sorry, maybe you missed it in the earlier post by TreborPugly. 33 light-minutes is a VERY small distance, galactically speaking (sorry for the pun  ). As stated before, Jupiter is 35 light minutes away from the sun (actually I think it's more like 41, but who's counting). While that might be a big distance for you & me, FTL-jumping that distance would be like driving your car from the garage down a 30 foot driveway to get the mail. Sorry, make that a 33 foot driveway.


Quick. You have to jump right now! Where do you go? Remember, you don't have any maps. You have to go with what you can see right now.

Let's say you can see a light-year away with good resolution. But what you're looking at is a snapshot of that reagion that is one year old. Do you have time to calculate the trajectories of all the objects that might intersect your path. Do you have the type of computing power to make those kind of predictions?

This isn't a game of Asteroids. You don't just hit the jump button and hope you land somewhere safe. You need to know where you're going to land.

Remember, the future of your race is at stake. Do you really want to hit the "I'm Feeling Lucky" random jump button?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

hefe said:


> Second, 33 minutes doesn't refer to the distance jumped, only the time between jumps.


33 minutes is the time it took for the beacon in the Astral Queen to reach the cylons (who were at the last jump point). If it takes the cylons 33 minutes to jump to you, it can reasonably be assumed that it is taking 33 minutes for their beacon to reach you if the beacon is traveling at the speed of light. That leads to the conclusion that the fleet was jumping 33 light minutes each time.



hefe said:


> In fact, 33 light minutes wouldn't necessarily be meaningful since the F in FTL stands for "fast*er*."


Huh? So traveling 33 light minutes in the blink of an eye is somehow not traveling faster than light?


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

hefe said:


> A couple problems.
> 
> First, the harmonics you're talking about here occur in frequency, not velocity.
> Second, 33 minutes doesn't refer to the distance jumped, only the time between jumps. In fact, 33 light minutes wouldn't necessarily be meaningful since the F in FTL stands for "fast*er*."
> ...


Yeah, Frequency and Velocity are not the same I guess. (I'm a bit rusty at this stuff which is too bad because I liked the concept!) 

<sidetrack>
Someone pointed out earlier the futility of jumping 33 light minutes away every 33 minutes. The point is that you'd still be moving each time. While you could just as easily travel that distance at the speed of light, there's no reason to think that the fleet can travel *at* the speed of light. The maximum speed of the slowest ship is probably a percentage of light speed or else FTL.

Also, the fleet couldn't have been jumping in a straight line. It would have been too easy for the Cylons to predict the next destination. Do we all agree on that?
</sidetrack>

If we assume that the signal is taking around 33 minutes to reach the Cylons and we assume that the signal is traveling at the speed of light as we know they do, Wouldn't that dictate that they fleet was never jumping further than 33 light minutes away? (That point was already made clear, but bear with me.) I may not be thinking clearly, but it seems to me that the distance they are jumping *can* be expressed in light minutes in this case as well as expressing the time between jumps.

If a society has FTL ships, is it possible that there's a way to transmit signals FTL also?

I concede on the radio wave mass thing. (Again, I'm rusty.  )

Plot driven physics is probably the only true answer to all of this. Oh well.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> Huh? So traveling 33 light minutes in the blink of an eye is somehow not traveling faster than light?


Ignore that. I was confusing myself with something else about relating the beacon to the jump distance...nevermind...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

but you can see 33 light minutes away with a decent telescope, can't you? so it makes no sense to jump "away" so close that any sensor on a ship can instantly detect you...I don't think there is any way they were jumping that close...


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

Another issue that I'm having with this "33 light minutes not being very far thing" is that I would imagine that these ships being designed for constant space travel might have telescopic equipment. The same can be said for "dradus" equipment.
Once the "presence" of the fleet in the form of images traveled 33 light minutes to the Cylons current location, would they absolutely need a beacon to find them? Sure it might take longer, but it seems that they would eventually detect all of those ships clustered together.

Speaking of "dradus". If it's anything like radar, wouldn't that take twice as long? Radar sends a signal out and shows the reflections. If the "dradus" signal takes 33 minutes to get somewhere, it's also going to take 33 minutes for the reflection to get back.

And while I'm on a roll (and possibly forgetting previously discussed logic) why would the fleet choose to wait 33 minutes each time if they didn't have to? If they are able to jump 33 light minutes away, but can make the jumps every 20 minutes, why not do so at least a few times and drag the tracking beacon further than 33 minutes away from the Cylons. Then they'd have more time to plot the next jump and get even further away. Eventually they'd outrun the beacon's ability to reach the Cylons and I don't think it would take 238 jumps to do so! I think I'm inclined to stick with the notion that the fleet couldn't jump more than every 33 minutes for some reason. Probably for mapping of the next destination.

And they couldn't have used "dradus" for the mapping if it's like radar because the signal would need to travel both ways. Maybe "dradus" is more like our radio telescopes. But, then what was the point of covering the Blackbird out of "carbon fiber" to make it "invisible" to "dradus"?

I know that there's probably a logical explaination here (besides plot physics), but at the moment my head is about to explode! 

[Edit]
Anubys, I'm thinking that the telescopes wouldn't see the ships until the image traveled 33 light minutes. (I stated this above while you were typing your response but I wanted to state it in a diffrent way as a reply to your statement.)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> 33 minutes is the time it took for the beacon in the Astral Queen to reach the cylons (who were at the last jump point). If it takes the cylons 33 minutes to jump to you, it can reasonably be assumed that it is taking 33 minutes for their beacon to reach you if the beacon is traveling at the speed of light. That leads to the conclusion that the fleet was jumping 33 light minutes each time.


I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. If they jump out as the Cylons jump in, and only go 33 light-seconds, they would still be on the Cylons' sensors at the other end of the jump. Hell, we on Earth could detect a fleet at that distance!

No, they simply have FTL communication. It's the only thing that makes sense. And it's simple enough to explain--quantum entanglement would do the tirck.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, they simply have FTL communication. It's the only thing that makes sense. And it's simple enough to explain--quantum entanglement would do the tirck.


If they didn't have FTL communication, they'd need to do a Pony Express type thing to transmit messages over long distances.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I guess we're done actually talking about this episode. See you in October...


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. If they jump out as the Cylons jump in, and only go 33 light-seconds, they would still be on the Cylons' sensors at the other end of the jump. Hell, we on Earth could detect a fleet at that distance!
> 
> No, they simply have FTL communication. It's the only thing that makes sense. And it's simple enough to explain--quantum entanglement would do the tirck.


33 light *minutes*, not 33 light seconds.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

When Dean Stockwell got everyone to start praying on Caprica I was so confused. I knew he was a Cylon but I didn't follow that he was part of Anders group.

Ok, I was confused before that.

It showed people retreating toward the Raptors but when they got behind the wall it only showed a few people. So I thought it was only those few people that didn't make it back. Then when they come out Dean Stockwell pops up and asks to start praying. I knew he was a Cylon because a version was on BSG, but I didn't understand how they didn't know because I thought he was out of place with the group.

It took a while for me to realize he had been part of Anders group the whole time.

J


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Anyway. The whole point of this exercise was to answer the simple question "Why every 33 minutes?".

I think we can all agree that it is due to the spead at which the signal of the beacon aboard the Astral Queen radiated back to the Cylons from the colonial fleet's latest jump.

If the cylon communication devices are 100 times FTL, then we could safely say that the fleet is jumping 3300 light minutes at a time. Agreed? (That would be about 2.3 light days).

I just reject the idea that they are making huge blind jumps into uncharted space. I think 33 light minutes is reasonable given they only have a short time to find a LZ. Like I said before, how do you safely jump a light year when you are looking at a 1 year old representation of the LZ.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Dude. It's light speed. It's not real anyway.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> 33 light *minutes*, not 33 light seconds.


I mistyped, but the point remains exactly the same. 33 light-minutes is an insanely small distance to jump when you're trying to escape somebody. You would accomplish almost exactly nothing.


Mike Farrington said:


> I just reject the idea that they are making huge blind jumps into uncharted space. I think 33 light minutes is reasonable given they only have a short time to find a LZ. Like I said before, how do you safely jump a light year when you are looking at a 1 year old representation of the LZ.


Around here, the nearest star is 4.3 light-YEARS away. So you could blind-jump safely up to about 4 light-years. And in most directions, you could jump safely far, far further.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I mistyped, but the point remains exactly the same. 33 light-minutes is an insanely small distance to jump when you're trying to escape somebody. You would accomplish almost exactly nothing.


Except fighting a losing battle that would end humanity's last best chance for survival? How many basestars were in pursuit? (serious question, I forget)


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## mcdougll (Jan 27, 2003)

Mike, you're not getting it. The whole point of Faster-Than-Light jumping is to get away, where the Cylons can't detect them anymore. Away meaning 'he**-and-gone' away. 33 light-minutes is not 'away'. 

Look. Let's say you are in charge, and you have the capability of 'jumping' to practically anywhere in your known space. (Please don't nit-pick about exactly what known space is or what your jump range is relative to that) 

Given that you know about twelve worlds (at least) I think you can assume that you know about a rather large volume of space. If you need to get away from someone who is trying to kill you, do you 'jump' away to somewhere so close that the bad guys can still see you? Or do you jump as far as you can go?


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## TreborPugly (May 2, 2002)

mcdougll said:


> Sorry, maybe you missed it in the earlier post by TreborPugly. 33 light-minutes is a VERY small distance, galactically speaking (sorry for the pun  ). As stated before, Jupiter is 35 light minutes away from the sun (actually I think it's more like 41, but who's counting). While that might be a big distance for you & me, FTL-jumping that distance would be like driving your car from the garage down a 30 foot driveway to get the mail. Sorry, make that a 33 foot driveway.


Jupiter is 35 light minutes from us, 43 from the sun. (according to a quick search I did..)

I'm really amazed at the continued insistance that 33 light minutes has anything to do with the 33 minutes between jumps! The cylon's are NOT showing up under normal, light speed. They are JUMPING in, just like the fleet does. The entire significance of 33 minutes is just how long it takes for the cylons to work out where the humans jumped to and follow them. (Or at least they pretend it takes them that long, if they are just trying to drive the humans crazy)


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## mcdougll (Jan 27, 2003)

TreborPugly said:


> Jupiter is 35 light minutes from us, 43 from the sun. (according to a quick search I did..)
> 
> I'm really amazed at the continued insistance that 33 light minutes has anything to do with the 33 minutes between jumps! The cylon's are NOT showing up under normal, light speed. They are JUMPING in, just like the fleet does. The entire significance of 33 minutes is just how long it takes for the cylons to work out where the humans jumped to and follow them. (Or at least they pretend it takes them that long, if they are just trying to drive the humans crazy)


Well said. :up:


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## darthrsg (Jul 25, 2005)

I thought when in a military situation the whole fleet moved at the speed of the slowest. If it took the sanitation ship 33 minutes to re-calc or whatever the whole fleet would have to wait.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

darthrsg said:


> I thought when in a military situation the whole fleet moved at the speed of the slowest. If it took the sanitation ship 33 minutes to re-calc or whatever the whole fleet would have to wait.


I'm pretty sure Galactica did the calculations and transmitted them to the rest of the fleet.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

mcdougll said:


> Mike, you're not getting it. The whole point of Faster-Than-Light jumping is to get away, where the Cylons can't detect them anymore. Away meaning 'he**-and-gone' away. 33 light-minutes is not 'away'.
> 
> Look. Let's say you are in charge, and you have the capability of 'jumping' to practically anywhere in your known space. (Please don't nit-pick about exactly what known space is or what your jump range is relative to that)
> 
> Given that you know about twelve worlds (at least) I think you can assume that you know about a rather large volume of space. If you need to get away from someone who is trying to kill you, do you 'jump' away to somewhere so close that the bad guys can still see you? Or do you jump as far as you can go?


Jump back to occupied enemy occupied territory? You really think that is the wisest course of action? They're trying to get as far away as possible.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

TreborPugly said:


> Jupiter is 35 light minutes from us, 43 from the sun. (according to a quick search I did..)
> 
> I'm really amazed at the continued insistance that 33 light minutes has anything to do with the 33 minutes between jumps! The cylon's are NOT showing up under normal, light speed. They are JUMPING in, just like the fleet does. The entire significance of 33 minutes is just how long it takes for the cylons to work out where the humans jumped to and follow them. (Or at least they pretend it takes them that long, if they are just trying to drive the humans crazy)


Have you read what I've been saying? I'm not saying it takes the cylons 33 minutes at light speed. I'm saying that THE BEACON is taking 33 minutes at the speed of light to reach the cylons who are still sitting still at the last jump location. The cylons see the beacon and know where the fleet is. They then jump to the colonial fleet's position.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Why do you think the beacon can only transmit at the speed of light?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Why do you think the beacon can only transmit at the speed of light?


I've conceded that it may not.

See post #375: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3866902&&#post3866902

I'm saying, for the most part, that the 33 minutes is the amount of time it takes for the beacon to reach the cylons. I'm also saying that their jump radius must surely be limited to how much space they can survey in just a few minutes. Again, need to make sure the landing zone is free of celestial obstacles.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Since most of space is nothing, it's probably a safe bet.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Since most of space is nothing, it's probably a safe bet.


With the last of your race? You'd make that gamble? Hundreds of times?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> With the last of your race? You'd make that gamble? Hundreds of times?


Wouldn't want to fly right though a star or bounce too close to a super-nova, that'd end your trip real quick...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> With the last of your race? You'd make that gamble? Hundreds of times?


In interstellar space? Sure. Even our solar system is almost entirely empty space--the odds of jumping to where something already is are astronomical. (I always cringe when movies show asteroid belts with asteroids practially bumping up against each other; in fact, if you were on the average asteroid, you wouldn't have another one within visual range.) Once you get beyond the solar system, there ain't nothin' there.

The only place you'd need to be careful about jumping is when your destination is close to a planet.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

The 33-minutes _can't_ be related to some obvious boundary, like dradus range or jump radius. If it were, the humans (especially the high-placed and/or smart ones) wouldn't have kept asking "why is it always 33 minutes!?"...


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## bentleyml (May 21, 2003)

I haven't read everything said in here so I may be repeating thoughts, but I thought the 33 minutes refered to how long it took the Cylons to extrapolate where the humans had jumped to after coming to the previous location. It might be something the humans are incapable of doing with their technology and therefore thats why they had no idea why it was always 33 minutes with the Cylons.

Just a random thought I hope makes sense. It could be total gibberish since I've barely slept the past few days.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I thought 33 had something to do with the Freemasons.


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## darthrsg (Jul 25, 2005)

The truth shall be known.
It takes 33 minutes for the hamsters on Galatica to wind the rubber band up enough to jump.
When the jump takes place the hamsters crap themselves, a lot.
The odor of the hamster poop takes 33 minutes to reach the nostrils of the Cylons.
The smell of hamster poop enrages Cylons to the Nth degree(we know this because they hit every tree on every planet but nothing else) so they jump in pursuit.
Everyone knows that hamsters poop, a lot.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

bentleyml said:


> I haven't read everything said in here so I may be repeating thoughts, but I thought the 33 minutes refered to how long it took the Cylons to extrapolate where the humans had jumped to after coming to the previous location. It might be something the humans are incapable of doing with their technology and therefore thats why they had no idea why it was always 33 minutes with the Cylons.


The storyline I'm going with is something (or someone) on the Astral Queen was giving away where had jumped jumped. By chance, the AQ had a malfunction that kept them from jumping so it broke the 33 minute cycle. The Cylons captured the ship, repaired it (recovering the jump coordinates for the failed jump), and turned it into a bomb to destroy the Galactica.

There are other ways to interpret the events shown.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

darthrsg said:


> The truth shall be known...


Sadly, that's about the most logical explanation I've heard.


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## darthrsg (Jul 25, 2005)

This is a compliment to you guys:
Who needs audio commentary or podcasts with you folks around.
You make my shift bearable.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

If 33 minutes were directly related to a beacon transmission time from the fleet to the Cylons, that would mean the fleet was jumping the EXACT same distance every time. I'd say that is highly unlikely, since they would want the jumps to be unpredictable. I therefore conclude that 33 minutes is not directly related to any beacon transmission time. Why are we even discussing this, I have no friggin clue, but I read all these posts about it so I had to chime in.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

DLiquid said:


> If 33 minutes were directly related to a beacon transmission time from the fleet to the Cylons, that would mean the fleet was jumping the EXACT same distance every time. I'd say that is highly unlikely, since they would want the jumps to be unpredictable. I therefore conclude that 33 minutes is not directly related to any beacon transmission time. Why are we even discussing this, I have no friggin clue, but I read all these posts about it so I had to chime in.


Actually, I would think they were jumping as far as possible, in order to put as much distance between them and their pursuers each jump. However, they would be jumping around in random directions so as to not be predictable.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Speaking for myself, I find the number 33 annoying now.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

dswallow said:


> Speaking for myself, I find the number 33 annoying now.


+1


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

=34


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

÷ &#960;


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

&#8756; n = 1


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## nedthelab (Oct 4, 2002)

markz said:


> I have never found her all that hot, but now with the long hair....WOW!


To the power of 10


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

Boy, I've gotten way behind! Vman41's telling of the story is pretty much what I remember as well.
I feel that some of these points about light speed have been misconstrued. I'm not a physicist, scientist, etc. myself but I'd like to think I have a decent concept of how it is believed to work (when I'm not mixing stuff up).

I'd like to offer this analogy outside of the BSG universe:
If we are standing side by side, you can see me in real time. 
If I were able to suddenly jump to a distance that is equivalent to 10 light minutes away, you wouldn't/shouldn't be able to see me there for the entire 10 minutes that it would take for my image to reach your eyes starting at the moment I arrive. You would not see me jump there immediately even if you knew exactly where I would end up.
During those first 10 minutes, I could walk around, make faces at you, and walk away from my destination without you being aware of any of it. As soon as my initial arrival image reached you at the speed of light, you would start to see what happened to me *10 minutes ago*! I would be 10 minutes ahead of you the entire time I was there. If our watches were synchronized before I left, and I decided to stand on my head at 20:48, you wouldn't see me do it until 20:58 your time. If you could see my watch, it would say 20:48 at that moment even though you would be viewing these events "live" from 10 light minutes away.

I, being 10 light minutes away, would also see everything you do delayed by 10 minutes. If you waved at me, you'd be waiting a total of 20 minutes to see me wave back.

Does anyone have a problem with what I've said so far?

In the BSG universe: (Ignoring everything except the Galactica with a Cylon transponder on board and 1 Cylon Basestar)

Galactica jumps some predefined distance. The transponder, which is probably always transmitting, starts sending it's signal from the new location. It takes the signal 33 minutes to reach the Cylon Basestar at whatever speed it's transmitting at. We can call that speed 33 light minutes or 3300 light minutes or whatever. The point is that it's taking 33 minutes to reach the Cylons so that they know where to go next. 
As soon as they receive the signal they jump to the new location too. While they were waiting for the signal to reach them, Galactica has spent those 33 minutes preparing for the next jump. Cylons jump in, Galactica jumps out, the cycle repeats at least 238 times according to the episode.

The ability to visually see the Galactica would depend on how far away it was at the speed of light. If Galactica jumped 33 light minutes away, it would be 33 minutes before the Cylons would be able to see it. Searching the entire starfield for a ship, or group of ships, might take a few extra minutes or maybe much longer. If "dradus" is simply radar, it would take 66 minutes for the signal to broadcast out and reflect back off of the Galactica.
(This also tells me that "dradus"/radar range probably isn't tied to the distance jumped each time. It would take 66 minutes to determine if a spot 33 light minutes away was safe.)

[Edit] If "dradus" is a combination of radar and radio telescope, it would make more sense! Stars would provide a "signal" to read within those 33 minutes at the speed of light. There wouldn't be a need to send a signal out first.

Now, does anyone have any problems with that?

Tell me where I'm wrong. Let's discuss!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Trent Bates said:


> I, being 10 light minutes away, would also see everything you do delayed by 10 minutes. If you waved at me, you'd be waiting a total of 20 minutes to see me wave back.
> 
> Does anyone have a problem with what I've said so far?


And you'd see yourself for the last 10 minutes before the jump.

Spooky.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

hefe said:


> And you'd see yourself for the last 10 minutes before the jump.
> 
> Spooky.


SInce it would take 10 minutes for the light to get where he is, he wouldn't see himself until 10 minutes later... at which point he wouldn't see himself anymore, since he's gone... or something...


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## darthrsg (Jul 25, 2005)

<inhale type="chinese eyes">Thats deep dude</exhale>


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

MickeS said:


> SInce it would take 10 minutes for the light to get where he is, he wouldn't see himself until 10 minutes later... at which point he wouldn't see himself anymore, since he's gone... or something...


I'm thinking that as well. Since it's a delay (as opposed to an advance) in both directions, I don't think you'd ever see yourself at the other end.

It's easy to equate this with a time travel scenario which it really isn't. This would be a purely "space travel" situation where the delays are only due to the speed limit of light.

Agreed?

I say this applies to Mike Farrington's concept of the fleet only jumping 33 light minutes away.

By my rough calculations (186,000 * 60 * 33) that would be a 368,280,000 mile jump. According to my examples posted earlier, the Cylons would not be able to see the fleet for 33 minutes even if they knew exactly where they'd be. Since the jumps logically must have been in random directions, without a beacon, the Cylons would need to search for the fleet each time and that would eat away the minutes above 33 by a certain amount. One time it would take them 35 minutes, the next time might only take them 33 minutes, the next time might take them 2 hours because the fleet was hidden behind a star, etc.

I would say that the reason that the Galactica officers were so shocked that the Cylons were finding them so quickly each time was that it was statistically impossible for the Cylons to always show up at exactly 33 minutes and 30 seconds (or whatever it was).

I still maintain that there would be no reason for the fleet to wait 33 minutes for each jump unless they had to for that situation. (If you've got an enemy chasing you, you don't stop every few minutes for him to catch up and then start running again!) Those 33 minutes must have been necessary to plot the next destination OR it took that long to prepare the ships or both.

The ability to jump "at will" in later episodes (and in the season finale) can be explained by simply being prepared for it. If you didn't just arrive at that point in space, you've had time to determine your possible escape jump points. If technologically capable, you would have had time to plan a much longer jump!

What does everyone think of that? Did I miss anything?


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## LordFett (May 6, 2005)

markz said:


> I have never found her all that hot, but now with the long hair....WOW!


I liked her much better with her really short hair from the start of the series.


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## rlc1 (Sep 15, 2003)

Trent Bates said:


> I still maintain that there would be no reason for the fleet to wait 33 minutes for each jump unless they had to for that situation. (If you've got an enemy chasing you, you don't stop every few minutes for him to catch up and then start running again!) Those 33 minutes must have been necessary to plot the next destination OR it took that long to prepare the ships or both.


I see the reason for them waiting the 33 minutes being that they were simply waiting to see if the Cylons would find them again each time. If for example they just kept jumping every 20 minutes, how would they know when to stop? For example they jump 5 times, every 20 minutes, and after the 5th jump they stop and wait. Now, 33 minutes later they are found again by the Cylons. So what did they gain by those 5 jumps? I think they just kept hoping that somehow the Cylons would either give up or lose them somehow.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

rlc1 said:


> I see the reason for them waiting the 33 minutes being that they were simply waiting to see if the Cylons would find them again each time. If for example they just kept jumping every 20 minutes, how would they know when to stop? For example they jump 5 times, every 20 minutes, and after the 5th jump they stop and wait. Now, 33 minutes later they are found again by the Cylons. So what did they gain by those 5 jumps? I think they just kept hoping that somehow the Cylons would either give up or lose them somehow.


They should've done 5 jumps immediately and seen if the Cylons showed up at their final destination 33 minutes later or 5*33 minutes later... i.e.; are they following a path left behind or are they following their current position.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

dswallow said:


> They should've done 5 jumps immediately and seen if the Cylons showed up at their final destination 33 minutes later or 5*33 minutes later... i.e.; are they following a path left behind or are they following their current position.


Maybe they did that in one of the previous 200 jumps we didn't see. Realized it was futile, and kept up with the 33 minutes in order to maximize down time.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

dswallow said:


> They should've done 5 jumps immediately and seen if the Cylons showed up at their final destination 33 minutes later or 5*33 minutes later... i.e.; are they following a path left behind or are they following their current position.


I think that was my point, it took them nearly the 33 minutes to plot a jump...I think they had a few minutes to spare, but not many...


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

rlc1 said:


> I see the reason for them waiting the 33 minutes being that they were simply waiting to see if the Cylons would find them again each time. If for example they just kept jumping every 20 minutes, how would they know when to stop? For example they jump 5 times, every 20 minutes, and after the 5th jump they stop and wait. Now, 33 minutes later they are found again by the Cylons. So what did they gain by those 5 jumps? I think they just kept hoping that somehow the Cylons would either give up or lose them somehow.


This is 100% right. That's the way it was explained in the episode called "33". I don't understand where all the debate is coming from. They kept jumping and would collectively hold their breath when the 33 minute mark approached. Like clockwork, the Cylons would appear and they would jump away.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Here's what I don't get... does that mean that they jumped exactly the same distance everytime, 33 light-minutes?


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## mcdougll (Jan 27, 2003)

No. That's what I was trying to get across to someone else earlier in the thread. 33 light-minutes is a REALLY SMALL DISTANCE when you are talking in galactic terms. It's roughly the distance from Jupiter to Earth. I think it's obvious to any rational person that in the BSG reality, they operate on much, MUCH larger scales than that. 

I think someone earlier also basically said that 33 minutes was the time it took for whatever mechanism the cylons were using to communicate the fleet's new position back to the cylon fleet, and this mechanism was almost certainly not limited by light-speed (as electro-magnetic communication would be). Then the cylon's would jump there, BSG & company would jump away, & the whole cycle would repeat.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Since they go faster than light, they're not jumping 33 light-minutes. In fact, there's no travel time involved - that's why it's called a "jump." They go from point A to B almost instantaneously. They are going the maximum distance every time, and it takes the signal 33 minutes to get to the Cylons.


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## mcdougll (Jan 27, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Since they go faster than light, they're not jumping 33 light-minutes. In fact, there's no travel time involved - that's why it's called a "jump." They go from point A to B almost instantaneously. They are going the maximum distance every time, and it takes the signal 33 minutes to get to the Cylons.


Right. It might be confusing, but a light-minute is not like a minute. A light-minute is a measure of distance (the distance light travels in a minute), not time.


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## TreborPugly (May 2, 2002)

My brain will explode soon. But you won't see the explosion for 33 minutes.


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

In response to post #413:

I see your point, but if it were me (and not a plot device) I wouldn't be stopping every time to see if they were still following. 
I might do it once in a while, but not 238 times consecutively as I took the episode to indicate. (They had placed indicator marks on all of the clocks because it was such a routine.)

After noticing the pattern of these 33 minute jumps, I'd be jumping as far as I could and as quickly as I could to get ahead. Each jump made under 33 minutes would give me that much extra time to perform the next and after a handful of them, I'd be much more than 33 minutes ahead of the Cylons. I realize that I'm appying my own logic here, but why would I want to endure 2-3 days of that and risk losing the battle and lives EACH time? It wasn't a game, each time the Cylons appeared it could have meant the end of humanity.

Bear with me while I do the math (hopefully correctly) of 5 consecutive jumps. We'll assume that for whatever reason they can't jump farther than 368,280,000 miles in this particular situation. That's roughly 33 light minutes.

Time 0:00
Jump 1: We'll call "A" is 33 light minutes ahead. 368,280,000 miles away from the Cylons in some unknown direction.

Time 0:20
Jump 2: After only 20 minutes of prep, we jump to "B" which is 66 light minutes and 736,560,000 miles ahead of the Cylons. The Beacon from "A" will take another 13 minutes to reach the Cylons to inform them of the location of "A" but we are at "B".

Time 0:33
_Cylon Jump 1 occurs at 33 minutes after our initial jump. We aren't there at "A" anymore because we jumped to "B" 13 minutes ago. A new beacon signal from "B" will be detected in about 20 minutes. Until then, they have to wait. Meanwhile, we will be jumping to "C" in just 7 minutes!_

Time 0:40
Jump 3: At "C" after 40 minutes total, we are now 99 minutes and 1,104,840,000 miles away from the starting point, and 40 minutes ahead of the Cylons who are still at "A".

Time 0:53
_Cylon jump 2 to "B" and we are gone. They will detect the beacon from "C" in 20 minutes._

I'm going to stop there because you can see now that the Cylons would never catch up. If the Cylons can make consecutive jumps without any warm up time, they'd still be 13 minutes behind each time with no dogfighting to be done. If they even need 1 minute to "warm up" they'd lose an additional minute with each jump. after 21 of these, they would be jumping into a spot where our beacon has already stopped transmitting and the fleet would be much further away.

I insist that the fleet needed that 33 minutes of preparation to have endured 238 jumps in an effort to get away.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Trent must have me on ignore.


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Trent must have me on ignore.


 Nope, I just been doing math and double checking my results a bunch of times! Hold on...

Okay, I'm back. Are we agreeing or disagreeing?


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Trent Bates said:


> Bear with me while I do the math (hopefully correctly) of 5 consecutive jumps. *We'll assume that for whatever reason they can't jump farther than 368,280,000 miles in this particular situation.* That's roughly 33 light minutes.
> 
> Time 0:00
> Jump 1: We'll call...


Why would you assume that? I think you are thinking yourself in circles. I think they could jump 100 or 1000 times in a row without waiting 33 minutes, and as long as the Astral Queen came along, 33 minutes later the Cylons would show up.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, I'll say it again. If they can only jump 33 light-minutes, it will take them many years to get to the next solar system. There's just no way on Earth (or in the Colonies) that there would ever be a limit that small.

The Cylons' method of tracking the fleet involved FTL communication. There's just no other way that it could make sense. The 33 minute span was either the combined time it took the Cylons to get the humans' position and jump there, or psychological warfare.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Trent Bates said:


> Nope, I just been doing math and double checking my results a bunch of times! Hold on...
> 
> Okay, I'm back. Are we agreeing or disagreeing?


Well, you say "if it were me (and not a plot device) I wouldn't be stopping every time to see if they were still following." But you don't understand that they're not "stopping to see if the Cylons are following."

Think of jump in BSG just like we would jump on a sidewalk. We can't jump for a certain period of time, then land to check to see if someone is jumping behind us. We jump. That's it. We land at the destination. That's what they do. It's instantaneous. They aren't stopping to check anything. They pop out of a jump and pray to the gods that they've lost the Cylons this time. But guess what? 33 minutes later they find out the Cylons are still on their trail.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Would you guys mind starting a new thread to discuss the logistics and math of FTL travel, or maybe even move the discussion to the thread for the episode in question, "33"? 

I know it's permissible to discuss prior events, but I don't know that I see the significance of this 33 minute "window" as it relates to the season finale of BSG ... Or maybe I've just lost all track of the significance, as the discussion has moved beyond my limited comprehension!


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

drew2k said:


> Would you guys mind starting a new thread to discuss the logistics and math of FTL travel, or maybe even move the discussion to the thread for the episode in question, "33"?
> 
> I know it's permissible to discuss prior events, but I don't know that I see the significance of this 33 minute "window" as it relates to the season finale of BSG ... Or maybe I've just lost all track of the significance, as the discussion has moved beyond my limited comprehension!


+1


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> Why would you assume that? I think you are thinking yourself in circles. I think they could jump 100 or 1000 times in a row without waiting 33 minutes, and as long as the Astral Queen came along, 33 minutes later the Cylons would show up.


No, because with each jump they are getting futher away from the Cylons. The signal will take more time to reach the Cylons with each jump. That is, if we are saying that the signal travels at the speed of light. And not only do radio travel at that speed, so does light. Right? Even if they jump a measly 1 light minute, Nobody would see them there until the light traveled for 1 minute and reached the Cylons.

To our current knowledge radio signals don't travel faster than the speed of light. There is talk of certain particles... Nah, that's too confusing. 

I don't believe that I'm thinking in circles.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Oh, I skipped the part where Trent is misunderstanding the jumps, still. They're aren't jumping just 33 light-minutes! They're jumping billions of trillions of miles! It's a jump, there's no light-speed distance encumberance.


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

drew2k said:


> Would you guys mind starting a new thread to discuss the logistics and math of FTL travel, or maybe even move the discussion to the thread for the episode in question, "33"?


I've been thinking the same for quite a while but didn't want to "sidetrack the sidetrack". Perhaps a moderator would be willing to spend a few minutes and split the "33 FTL" discussion from the season finale discussion?

If that's not feasible, maybe we can copy the relevant parts to a new topic.

I'll stop here and wait for the change in whatever form it comes as. 

Also, mods permitting, I created a new topic to get things going right away. See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=291918


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Why would you assume that? I think you are thinking yourself in circles. I think they could jump 100 or 1000 times in a row without waiting 33 minutes, and as long as the Astral Queen came along, 33 minutes later the Cylons would show up.


As I pointed out earlier in the thread, the ship that carried the beacon that signalled the Cylons was not the Astral Queen. It was the Olympic Cruiser. The Astral Queen is still part of the fleet (or at least it was prior to the nuclear blast) and is the prison ship.

Other than that, I completely agree with what you said.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Trent Bates said:


> No, because with each jump they are getting futher away from the Cylons. The signal will take more time to reach the Cylons with each jump. *That is, if we are saying that the signal travels at the speed of light.* And not only do radio travel at that speed, so does light. Right? Even if they jump a measly 1 light minute, Nobody would see them there until the light traveled for 1 minute and reached the Cylons.
> 
> To our current knowledge radio signals don't travel faster than the speed of light. There is talk of certain particles... Nah, that's too confusing.
> 
> I don't believe that I'm thinking in circles.


See, you have latched onto electromagnetic radiation and our understanding of traveling/transmitting over long distances.

Obviously, the Cylon beacon transmits in some fashion that's faster than light. What is it? I don't know that anymore than I know how FTL drives for the ships work. It's a TV show.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

New topic on the "33 limit" here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=291918


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

Um, was it obvious this episode needed to be padded? I just watched and am really pissed that my Tivo cut it off. WTF!? Why isn't anyone else irked? Did I do something wrong?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Tsiehta said:


> Um, was it obvious this episode needed to be padded? I just watched and am really pissed that my Tivo cut it off. WTF!? Why isn't anyone else irked? Did I do something wrong?


Mine didn't cut it off. Was that just the stand alones? I've got a DirecTv one.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

hefe said:


> Mine didn't cut it off. Was that just the stand alones? I've got a DirecTv one.


Same here.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Mine was fine, it didn't cut off. I was using a stand-alone series2.

It was a 90 minute season finale, but I noticed that the recording was scheduled for 97 minutes. My SP doesn't have any padding, but there is a slight chance I added 5 for this episode even though I don't really remember doing so.

How long were other people's recordings?

Is it possible that there was a last minute guide update that some people were not lucky enough to get (due to the timing of their last daily call)?

How long are some of the group's recordings?

I've also heard some people, whose recording was cut off at the end, say that they recorded the latter showing (which would have been around 1:30am or 2:00am).

Maybe that latter rebroadcast was a bit off (due to the longer than 90 minute first airing).


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## DRobbins (Dec 23, 2001)

I have a DirecTivo, and I recorded on the first broadcast and had it set to pad by one minute, so it recorded for 91 minutes. I still missed at least 1 minute of the end of the episode. I don't remember when the show started relative to the time my DirecTivo started recording, though (in other words, I don't remember if I had to FF to get to the start of Galactica).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mine was fine. I noticed that it went from 1:05 to 1:07 pretty late, however, probably on the same day. Maybe your machine didn't update in time..?


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## EchoBravo (Apr 20, 2002)

Standalone. Cut off.

After recording it again and watching to see what I had missed, I realized only about 10 seconds (if that) was lopped.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Standalone Series 2 here. Got the whole episode (actually got the whole ep. on 2 different standalones.)

Sounds like a late update to the guide data.


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## jimborst (Aug 30, 2001)

Standalone series 1, no cut off for me. I got the whole thing with no padding.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I have a S1 Standalone and and S2 Standalone. One of them cut off during the scene in Baltar's office before he surrendered. The other one I had set to pad by one minute and it cut off when the camera zoomed in on Starbuck and Chief after the toasters marched by.


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

Fortunately, I was visiting a friend this weekend who had the entire episode so I got to see the last few minutes.

I'm convinced that something is amiss here. There are too many character oddities for this to be a "real" time line.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

devdogaz said:


> The other one I had set to pad by one minute and it cut off when the camera zoomed in on Starbuck and Chief after the toasters marched by.


This is exactly where mine dropped as well, but I was watching on a cable-provided DVR (eeewwww! But it has dual tuners and does HD so...) with no padding. My Tivo S1 got even less, IIRC (I checked it just to make sure).


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## kateshu (Nov 8, 2004)

I'm sure everyone has caught it by now but just in case... the Sci-Fi channel website has the last couple of minutes available to watch for free. Hope this helps.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

kateshu said:


> I'm sure everyone has caught it by now but just in case... the Sci-Fi channel website has the last couple of minutes available to watch for free. Hope this helps.


Welcome to TCF kateshu and thanks for the heads up. I still haven't seen the very end and wasn't aware they had it available on scifi.com.

It's interesting that they are streaming just the last few minutes. I guess that means they are acknowledging that a large number of their viewers record the show and that the recordings probably got cut off due to bad guide data. I don't think I've ever seen a network cater to the timeshifters before.


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

^^^ It's a good way to gauge the amount of viewers who watch the show after it is aired, as they can count the no. of hits the video clip has.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

There was actually a little bit on the clip that I hadn't seen. I have a Comcast DVR and it also cut out early. It told me that it had a partial recording. I missed the part where Starbuck said they would fight.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

FYI for BSG fans...

The podcast feed downloaded a new podcast this week. 

It is about an hour of a writers' meeting that was held during the hiatus between the first and second half of the season. They are discussing and flushing out the details of the episode "Scar." Interesting to note the timing of when they are writing what, and what goes into the story planning meetings.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

UMF: 
http://www.zazzle.com/products/prod...hing=on&product_id=235910668615858960&index=7


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## Waldorf (Oct 4, 2002)

Holy cow... so yeah.. bumping to top for those of us who are watching this for the first time on Universal HD.

I'm a little uneasy on where they're taking this. I remember during B5 there were a couple of times where it seemed like it was going off the rails but it all came together, so I'm hoping BSG can do the same.

The first time I see something exciting happening, cutting to a black screen with the text, "4 months, 84 days, 15 hours earlier..." I'll be a sad panda. 

October until Season 3? and that's just on sci-fi! Wonder how long until us UHD folks get season 3.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

ok i just started watching the series the past month (gotta empty some RAM disks and my old unsubbed t60)

So just finished this ep and while i admit to not paying 100&#37; attention, i was really really lost when all of a sudden it seemed like the wrong prez got put in and we were x years in the future. But after reading the 1st page of this thread, i guess i wasnt alone.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Probably not the correct place to post this, but I started watching BSG from talk on this site, and watched seasons 1 and both 2's. Then I looked for season 3 at Blockbuster and Netflix both and couldn't find them. There was a season 3 and 4 right? I found Razor and watched that--it kind of stood alone. So where is the show now and is it all available on DVD?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Season 3 hasn't started yet. Razor was a movie based on the events that took place on the pegasus.

New season in March.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

No, season 3 was the last one. We're awaiting season 4.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

oh, I get lost on the numbers. Listen to the better geek above me.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Wait, now we're talking about the numbers in Lost?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Season 3 hasn't started yet. Razor was a movie based on the events that took place on the pegasus.
> 
> New season in March.


...and the Season 3 DVDs aren't out yet. Also in March, I believe.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Razor was also a flashback episode. It took place before they settled on New Caprica.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Wait, now we're talking about the numbers in Lost?


8675309!


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ok--thanks guys


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