# 20 Questions with Ira Bahr - TiVo's Chief Marketing Officer



## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

We wish to thank Ira Bahr for coming to TiVo Community Forum to once again answer questions from our members.

We have selected 20 questions out of the ones that had been submitted in THIS THREAD, that we feel would be great to be answered for the community. As such, the below thread is more or less in an "Interview" style format.

So lets get on with it.

Thanks Ira for joining us once again. Can you please start by letting us know what your position at TiVo initials so our members and readers know more about what a CMO does?

And no, this is not one of the 20 asked questions.


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks so much for having us back David. We genuninely appreciate the opportunity. As you guys surmised last October, this is not a one man show, but a full team effort which includes key contributions from our Product and Engineering teams. In addition to corporate CMO, I'm also General Manager of the retail business, meaning I oversee the P&L for this unit. I report to the CEO and have discretion and influence over most everything we do. As far as technology roadmap, which I know is of great interest here, my team builds product plans which we then advocate for versus other potential TiVo investments.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 1:

Does TiVo still have plans to release a "Pro" version of the Bolt with more tuners and more storage at any point in the future?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

Stay tuned for an announcement from TiVo at the CEDIA event on 9/15.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 2:

Can Tivo Series 1 owners who bought it with lifetime subscription in 1999, that are still active, opt to transfer lifetime service to a Series 2 machine instead of the $75 credit card?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

Our offer is $75 off of a 500 GB TiVo BOLT or $100 off 1000 GB when you subscribe to a new service plan. Importantly, this is IN ADDITION to the $75 prepaid card, meaning that the net prices are $50 and $125 respectively. If you're not getting an outcome you like, please do phone our S1 hotline at 1-877-407-1983, and tell us your situation. We've worked hard to assure that we have offers to accomodate all requirements.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 3:

TiVo reps have made mention in the past of releasing in 2016 some sort of new retail product that isn't a traditional DVR. Is such a device still planned for release soon and can you provide any details? Is it a streaming box to complete with Roku, etc?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

In order to grow, we definitely want to break the trajectory of traditional DVR. We do expect to announce something around CES in January though I don't think we're going to try to compete with the streamers directly. Most likely, the announcement will be in the form of a public beta -- which I have no doubt we will ask TCF members to participate in.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 4:

What is unique about the Rovi meta data that the Series 2 and 3 units can handle it, but Series 1 can't? I'm curious about what's happening (and why) from an engineering perspective that makes retiring Series 1's necessary.


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

This was not strictly an engineering decision but rather a resource allocation decision. As Series 1 active boxes made up less than .5% of our active boxes in the field, it was cost prohibitive on a per box basis to try to engineer a solution. We also don't think we could have gotten it done in time.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 5:

Along the same lines, what will the upgrade process to Rovi metadata be for customers? Will there be a software update, or will it flow down seamlessly just as it currently does with daily connections?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

There is a two-step process. Just this week, we updated the software on the S2-S6 boxes for the new data feeds. Starting next week we will be transitioning these boxes to the new data. During that download which will occur in the early AM hours and take two to three hours, the box will not be fully functional. After that, the DVR will function normally. We've done a ton of testing but we're counting on you guys to post any anomalies you might observe. Right now, we think the most obvious defect will be generic poster art on certain assets.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 6:

Will we continue to see direct-to-consumer products coming out from the combined TiVo/Rovi company?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

We have a product announcement coming 9/15, and we have a product roadmap that extends beyond this. TiVo and Rovi management have both publicly acknowledged the strategic value of TiVo's retail business. Comments you might have heard related to the set top box business were not about our participation in retail, but to the question of who manufactures the hardware.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 7:

Are the rumors true of a new Guide UI and if so when we can look forward to it? Bonus points if you decide to talk in detail about it or can describe it a bit to us?

(Side Note...Can you give free cookies some day soon to the TiVO support reps that visit these boards, and even CSRs everywhere else as thanks from us TiVo customers? As I and I'm sure others have had a few exceptional members of your support staff. They deserve it. (I promised one of your support team I would tell management that they deserve cookies for fixing my issue) Thank you.


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

We are working to develop new user interfaces for our portfolio of products. Right now we have no official announcement but you should propbably expect to see optimizations, improvements and in some cases new designs over the course of the next year. I can tell you that the discussions you guys have on the merits of text v. graphical interfaces is exactly one that we ourselves continually have. Thanks for your kind words about our hard-working customer support team. Great customer support is part of the culture at TiVo and we always try to acknowledge employees who go above and beyond.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 8:

Are there any plans at all to utilize your own streaming OTT services for cable type channels a la' SlingTV, PS Vue, DirecTV Now, etc., so as to avoid all the pitfalls of trying to work with the various cable MSOs/FiOS (cablecards, Tuning Adapters, poor MSO CSR & Field Tech knowledge, etc.)? If not, then possibly team up with one of these services to offer them on TiVo DVRs, hopefully seamlessly within the TiVo UI? Channel Master DVR+ does this with SlingTV.


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

While we have no current plans to get into the programming business, we are absolutely engaged with these companies. We fully understand the benefits of the integration and are definitely miffed that CM beat us on SlingTV. (FWIW -- Dish/Echostar, the owners of SlingTV actually make the CM hardware so they did have the inside track.) Our aim is that the TiVo platform support all key streaming services. As you point out, we are not executing well enough here. In addition to SlingTV, we also don't have HBONow, and many others.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 9:

When will 20.6.1a.RC7 be released for the Roamio to fix the Comcast H.264 recording issues?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

The H.264 problem is an issue that occurs when playing certain digital content in Comcast's linear broadcast lineup in certain areas around the country. The issue is somewhat technical, but it is related to the structure of the stream and certain hardware limitations with the chip we use in our STBs. We have implemented a reasonably robust workaround that is part of update the that we are doing this week. Eager to hear what you guys think.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 10:

Will Roamios and Bolts be able to adapt to ATSC 3.0 with external tuners, same for emerging non cable card ip implementations by the cable companies (utilizing the ethernet/lan port like Uverse/Prism TV)? If not, will there be new Tivo equipment or "TiVo Powered" devices than can do such? 

(Side note: It would be nice if can we get other TiVo color schemes that can be selected such as adding the UK TiVo color scheme that could be selected.)


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

We do not currently have any plans to support external ATSC 3.0 adapters in our existing STBs. Non-CableCARD IP implementations can be done several ways including an app, similar to Netflix or the OnDemand apps that we already have on our platforms. We are currently in discussions with partners about these platforms. We hear you on color schemes and personalization. This is also why you will notice some tweaks to the color scheme of the UI between Roamio and BOLT product lines. Agree that it would be even cooler if our users could choose and customize their colors.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 11:

Any plans on a wireless Mini? Something similar to what Dish Network and Directv offers with their wireless client boxes, as they work great for moving tvs to various places that have no coax and no Ethernet run, including outdoor patios.


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

We currently do not have a wireless Mini on the roadmap. We deliver the highest quality MPEG2 without major compression. The TiVo Mini is truly an extention of our core product, and as such should work with the same quality as you experience from your main TV. Pet peeve BTW on DTV commercials advertising wireless: they overtly suggest that there are no wires at all running from the client to the TV.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 12:

I'm wondering if TiVo will provide a tentative (or specific) EOL schedule for Series 2, Series 3, and Roamio, as companies like Citrix, Microsoft, and Blackberry do, since "Lifetime" appears to be a marketing term of unknown and potentially variable length with service potentially being cut with only about 6 weeks notice.


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

TiVo has always stood behind its products. It's part of our culture and it's key to our brand. We never had a plan to to EOL ANY of our platforms, and we have no such plans today. The data transition was a one-time event.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 13:

Maybe Ira can ask the engineering folks about this...

If I power on a Mini and try to go to LIVE TV while the Bolt is recording three shows, I'm told "no free tuners are available."

If you're currently watching LIVE TV on a Mini and start 3 recordings on 3 other channels, Mini live TV is uninterrupted, so it is possible for the mini to use the fourth tuner.

Why is that?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

Great question. To understand the behavior you described, it's helpful to understand the architecture behind TiVo's Host DVR tuner behavior and how the Mini client device interacts with it, as well as Live TV caching on the selected tuner. 

Host DVRs that are compatible with the TiVo Mini require at least four tuners. The host DVR is always utilizing a tuner for Live TV caching. This is done whether the user has explicitly set a recording or not on this tuner. If you happen to have selected a tuner on the host DVR that is recording, it will also be counted as the Live TV cache tuner. This in turn will free up a tuner to be used otherwise by a client device (TiVo Mini). 

Live TV caching always occurs on the tuner feed on one channel regardless of the box's current use, even if you are watching Netflix or viewing a recording locally from "My Shows." Live TV cache allows you to pause live TV and rewind to catch parts you may have missed even without setting a recording. 

In your two scenarios where the Mini was able to watch Live TV in one instance and not the otherboth with three recordings on a four-tuner Host DVRhad to do with whether the Live TV channel cache was watching one of the three recorded channels or the fourth tuner. 

So to put another way, if you share the Live TV cache with a tuner that is also recording and are recording a total of three simultaneous recordings, then you are using only three tuners. If you are recording three shows and watching Live TV on the fourth tuner, then it is technically recording as well, as a cache. In this second scenario, you are using all four tuners of a four-tuner host and have no available tuners for the Mini to borrow. The Mini would still be able to access Netflix and previously recorded shows over the network, it will just have no available tuners for Live TV viewing. Hope this helps.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 14:

How will this change affect this grandfathered Series 1 model which shipped with v1.3 but has since upgraded to v3. 

Will the time set still be supported and the dialup network still remain active to allow manual recordings?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

We have tested this and believe that all Series 1 boxes will be able to still use manual recordings (time and channel) as a mechanism to record. However, the box will NOT be dialing in and you will have no program data. We have no official support for this which is why we have the $75 offer and box discounts for impacted customers. In addition to the recording limitation, there are other limitations and error screens that will appear on the Series 1 boxes. Do manual recordings still work if your're willing to deal with the inconveninces? The answer is a qualified "yes." Just know that it is not the intended use of the box for our customers.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 15:

Please comment on the prospects for an updated Mini. Anything you can share? 4K?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

We originally released the Mini in 2012 and it's definitely due for a refresh. Look to the first half of next year for an update to the Mini that will be UHD 4K compatible.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 16:

BTW...How did TiVo come up with the $75 figure for the Series1 offer? What was the thought in that?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

Personally, I felt that $50 seemed trivial and that $100 was way too much for a product of this age. Definitely more art than science here. But, you should also be wondering why we're giving away money at all. Why not just provide a new box? Among the things we had to consider were that: 1) a material number of S1 users have signal sources  DBS, ATT  that do not support CableCARD, thereby making ANY current product upgrade offer unusable; 2) a non-trivial number of users do not have broadband, further complicating the upgrade option; 3) given a choice between money and upgrade/install we believed that most customers were going to be happier with the money as our email marketers have been flogging this base with valuable upgrade offers for much of the last decade. As important, we have to weigh what we're doing to fulfill our brand promise against the fact that we do run a for-profit business here. Balancing these interests is not easy, but in the end we do think we have something for everyone. Again, if you're not getting an outcome you like, please phone our S1 hotline at 1-877-407-1983, and tell us your situation.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 17:

Will SkipMode be expanded to include more channels any time soon? And will SkipMode ever be made available to the mobile clients?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

We do not have any short-term plans to add channels or hours. However, during the Olympic coverage we were able to expand our coverage beyond normal primetime. Glad you seem to be enjoying SkipMode. It was a long fight with our legal department!


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 18:

Will the change in guide data vendor have an impact on shows we've transferred to our PC (using tivo desktop) or shows we've downloaded to a mobile device using the tivo app?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

As far as the impact on those using TiVo Desktop software, some programs recorded before the guide data update (using Gracenote data) that are restored afterwards (using Rovi data) may see odd metadata changes. This will happen mostly for less popular shows. This isn't ideal, but the PC transfer is no longer a supported feature on our platform. As for the mobile app, this continues to be a supported platform and will be transitioned fully as with all of our existing software platforms.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 19:

Will TiVo Online ever get the ability to stream outside the home? Will it ever have the ability to do the initial Stream hardware setup without having to use an app to do that part?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

We've definitely been late on delivering this feature to our online offering. Happy to tell you that OOH streaming on TiVo Online is slated for Beta testing next month. Not clear yet when we'll launch commercially.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Question 20:

Are there any plans to release a new version of TiVo Desktop or otherwise enhance the process for transferring recordings to/from a PC?


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## Ira Bahr (Oct 1, 2015)

We understand that there is a hole that was left when TiVo Desktop and Desktop Plus were EOL'd. There were some external reasons why we had to EOL that product. We are presently trying to get a replacement on the technology roadmap.


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## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Thank you so kindly Ira for your time in taking questions from the TiVo Community. It is wonderful that TiVo takes such an active interest in our community.

We thank all those that took part in submitting questions.

TCF Members, a kindly reminder that there will be no followup questions & answers answers from Ira. This was a 20 question interaction, interview style. 

Thank you all.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Thanks a ton, Ira. We really appreciate your time and the info you provided.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Thanks a lot Ira, you and the team are a welcomed treat.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Thank you Ira, David and Dan for making his happen! There was a LOT of interesting tidbits to sort through on this one! (Especially mine haha )


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## OmeneX (Jul 2, 2016)

Thanks Ira and team for taking the time out to answer our burning questions. You guys are too cool - and hopefully you will offer this Q/A opportunity again soon.

Side note - If you do decide to expand Skip Mode, and need skip mode employees (SME's) - I have a feeling there are a TON of people here that would take a job paying to watch T.V. 

Thanks again.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm happy to hear that we have a definitive date for the announcement of (presumably) the Bolt Pro. While I'd be happy with a 6 tuner 4K unit, I'm still hoping that they shock us with something we're not expecting.


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## TrackZ (Jan 5, 2004)

Awesome to see a Q/A like this here. 

Wish I would have seen this prior because asking about UHD and HDR and forward technology elements. Maybe there will be some big news related to that in September though.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Thanks Ira and David, Tivo the best always, and next to the Steve Hoffman forums, this is the best!


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> I'm happy to hear that we have a definitive date for the announcement of (presumably) the Bolt Pro. While I'd be happy with a 6 tuner 4K unit, I'm still hoping that they shock us with something we're not expecting.


Yeah, his answer to my question about streaming services was VERY telling! :up:



David Bott said:


> Question 8: Are there any plans at all to utilize your own streaming OTT services for cable type channels a la' SlingTV, PS Vue, DirecTV Now, etc., so as to avoid all the pitfalls of trying to work with the various cable MSOs/FiOS (cablecards, Tuning Adapters, poor MSO CSR & Field Tech knowledge, etc.)? If not, then possibly team up with one of these services to offer them on TiVo DVRs, hopefully seamlessly within the TiVo UI? Channel Master DVR+ does this with SlingTV.





Ira Bahr said:


> While we have no current plans to get into the programming business, we are absolutely engaged with these companies. We fully understand the benefits of the integration and are definately miffed that CM beat us on SlingTV. (FWIW -- Dish/Echostar, the owners of SlingTV actually make the CM hardware so they did have the inside track.) Our aim is that the TiVo platform support all key streaming services. As you point out, we are not executing well enough here. In addition to SlingTV, we also don't have HBONow, and many others.


It sounds like they aren't going to be the programmers (no shock there), but are and have been in talks with the likes of SlingTV, Vue and maybe DirecTV Now to include their app on TiVo! I doubt it'll be integrated within the TiVo guide and UI but hey, I'll take that!

Maybe that'll be part of their announcement at CEDIA this year on Sep 15? Damn I wish I was going this year!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HarperVision said:


> It sounds like they aren't going to be the programmers (no shock there), but are and have been in talks with the likes of SlingTV, Vue and maybe DirecTV Now to include their app on TiVo! I doubt it'll be integrated within the TiVo guide and UI but hey, I'll take that!


Or maybe they're working with some new service we're not even aware of. They've always had a good relationship with Comcast, and I assume that Comcast will be releasing a similar service to compete with Sling/Vue.

It would really need to be integrated into the UI for it to be really useful. If it's just an app with no integration into OnePass I'm not sure how helpful that would really be to customers. Although I guess it's still better then having to switch inputs and remotes to another device.


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## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

Dan203 said:


> Or maybe they're working with some new service we're not even aware of. They've always had a good relationship with Comcast, and I assume that Comcast will be releasing a similar service to compete with Sling/Vue.
> 
> It would really need to be integrated into the UI for it to be really useful. If it's just an app with no integration into OnePass I'm not sure how helpful that would really be to customers. Although I guess it's still better then having to switch inputs and remotes to another device.


I think the ability to not only access a Sling/Vue type service but also be able to record shows, that would be killer.. That would free them up from the whole Cablecard, Tuning adapter issues and installation hurdles.


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## thyname (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks Ira, I appreciate your time!

It is great you TiVo guys come over here to answer questions from your fans. I greatly appreciate your openness in confirming and hinting on things that will come AND things that are NOT in the works. It helps us curbing our expectations on a product we love.

I fully agree with your solution on the S1 active owners, it was a classy act and very generous for such an obsolete piece of technology. Just my opinion.

I certainly think that a hinted (quite openly I must say) release of a Bolt Pro in September is great news! Six or more tuners are definitely needed for most of us TiVo enthusiasts, and hopefully more storage space built in. Whatever extra, will be a bonus, so go ahead and surprise us!

It is a bummer that the answer to my question on a Wireless Mini was negative, but I also understand why. Directv and Dish Network accomplish this with a "professional install only" wireless video bridge , which is practically impossible for TiVo to accomplish. As far as I know, only Layer3 Tv has the wireless built in main DVR box, which is also impossible for TiVo as they would need to built the DVR from the scratch.

A "refreshed" Mini next year with 4K capabilities is also good news.

There were also hints on additional streaming services available, integration with Sling, Vue, etc, but I personally don't care much, as I want TiVo to focus on what they currently do - as a premium DVR - its core business.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

..and cloud dvr, the future


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

David Bott said:


> Question 3:
> 
> TiVo reps have made mention in the past of releasing in 2016 some sort of new retail product that isn't a traditional DVR. Is such a device still planned for release soon and can you provide any details? Is it a streaming box to complete with Roku, etc?





Ira Bahr said:


> In order to grow, we definitely want to break the trajectory of traditional DVR. We do expect to announce something around CES in January though I don't think we're going to try to compete with the streamers directly. Most likely, the announcement will be in the form of a public beta -- which I have no doubt we will ask TCF members to participate in.


Thanks to David for including my Q and to Ira for his answer, cryptic though it is.

What could Ira be hinting at here? Rather than a new piece of retail hardware, it sounds to me more like a new piece of software to be run on existing TiVos (which would allow TCF members to serve as beta testers), whether it's a standalone app or an extension of the core TiVo OS that provides some new features. Perhaps this is tied into a refresh of the TiVo UI or some kind of update to OnePass that will put a greater emphasis on on-demand/streaming than currently exists? (I guess that would be a move away from "the trajectory of traditional DVR". It's also something you see in the UI of Comcast's X1, for instance.) Any thoughts?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Ira Bahr said:


> As far as the impact on those using TiVo Desktop software, some programs recorded before the guide data update (using Gracenote data) that are restored afterwards (using Rovi data) may see odd metadata changes. This will happen mostly for less popular shows. This isn't ideal, but the* PC transfer is no longer a supported feature on our platform*. As for the mobile app, this continues to be a supported platform and will be transitioned fully as with all of our existing software platforms.


I suppose this doesn't surprise me, but it was interesting to see it in writing...


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Or maybe they're working with some new service we're not even aware of. They've always had a good relationship with Comcast, and I assume that Comcast will be releasing a similar service to compete with Sling/Vue.
> 
> It would really need to be integrated into the UI for it to be really useful. If it's just an app with no integration into OnePass I'm not sure how helpful that would really be to customers. Although I guess it's still better then having to switch inputs and remotes to another device.


Comcast sux, I hope they DO NOT partner with them on a streaming service! If they're willing to eschew their so called customers and give them crap by down converting 1080i native to 720p, then who knows what the heck they're willing to do just to rip another dollar out of the pockets of their hard working customers!

I agree integrated is best, but I think it would happen in stages with something like this. First offer it as an app to access on at least an OTA capable TiVo, then work on a nice UI that eventually merges it all together in the guide and OnePass.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Ira Bahr said:


> We understand that there is a hole that was left when TiVo Desktop and Desktop Plus were EOL'd. There were some external reasons why we had to EOL that product. We are presently trying to get a replacement on the technology roadmap.


Now that Windows 10 officially supports encrypted HLS I'm betting that we see a Windows 10 app similar to the iOS/Android apps eventually. Unfortunately for us those platforms record in a special encrypted format that VideoReDo couldn't handle.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

thyname said:


> .........It is a bummer that the answer to my question on a Wireless Mini was negative, but I also understand why. Directv and Dish Network accomplish this with a "professional install only" wireless video bridge , which is practically impossible for TiVo to accomplish. ..........


I have thought about this many times. Maybe TiVo could offer "enthusiast installation" whereby they contract with TiVo enthusiasts like us here on TCF. When a new customer that doesn't understand TiVo and how to hook it all up and how it all works, they can maybe put a flyer into each box and a note online for an 800 # to call where a CSR has phone numbers and emails of contracted enthusiasts in their area that can personally help with their install and setup. They can maybe offer phone and email support initially and then in home assistance if needed.

In return, TiVo could offer the enthusiast installer monthly credits, free/discounted equipment, free lifetime/All-In on a TiVo of their choice, etc.

I believe this would alleviate TONS of cases where the new customer finally just gives up and returns their new toy due to all the hassles of cablecards, TAs, ignorant CSRs and techs, cost analysis vs renting cable co STB, etc. This could really help build TiVo into a successful retail product.

We did something similar to this with TAW, Inc. when we launched back at the turn of the century where we had started signing up reps in each state/area/territory who owned the products and got substantial discounts on them and could also be a "dealer" for the prospective client to come to their home theater and see the gear in action. TAW's products were basically sold online only, which was unheard of really back then. No one was going to spend $20K+ for an elite CRT projector and video scaler like the Rock+ without seeing it first. This filled the void and I personally helped sell many of these units this way, and got some amazing HT gear in the process!



NashGuy said:


> Thanks to David for including my Q and to Ira for his answer, cryptic though it is.
> 
> What could Ira be hinting at here? Rather than a new piece of retail hardware, it sounds to me more like a new piece of software to be run on existing TiVos (which would allow TCF members to serve as beta testers), whether it's a standalone app or an extension of the core TiVo OS that provides some new features. Perhaps this is tied into a refresh of the TiVo UI or some kind of update to OnePass that will put a greater emphasis on on-demand/streaming than currently exists? (I guess that would be a move away from "the trajectory of traditional DVR". It's also something you see in the UI of Comcast's X1, for instance.) Any thoughts?


Probably cloud DVR and the software can be downloaded to current TiVos. Then they can be similar to X1 where the cloud can increase storage capacity. If it works well, then they can release a new STB with no hard drive that is cloud DVR only. Maybe something similar to the Evolution Digital eBox? He did mention and say that TiVo's comments lately weren't about getting out of the retail equipment game, rather about using third party manufacturers to make their boxes or contract the TiVo SW to run on their boxes, like a company like Evolution Digital, as we've discussed.


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## Mikeyis4dcats (Oct 2, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Thanks to David for including my Q and to Ira for his answer, cryptic though it is.
> 
> What could Ira be hinting at here? Rather than a new piece of retail hardware, it sounds to me more like a new piece of software to be run on existing TiVos (which would allow TCF members to serve as beta testers), whether it's a standalone app or an extension of the core TiVo OS that provides some new features. Perhaps this is tied into a refresh of the TiVo UI or some kind of update to OnePass that will put a greater emphasis on on-demand/streaming than currently exists? (I guess that would be a move away from "the trajectory of traditional DVR". It's also something you see in the UI of Comcast's X1, for instance.) Any thoughts?


could this just be the Tivo Online streaming beta? Wonder if that will allow you to stream multiple sources via the web app?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HarperVision said:


> Probably cloud DVR and the software can be downloaded to current TiVos. Then they can be similar to X1 where the cloud can increase storage capacity. If it works well, then they can release a new STB with no hard drive that is cloud DVR only. Maybe something similar to the Evolution Digital eBox? He did mention and say that TiVo's comments lately weren't about getting out of the retail equipment game, rather about using third party manufacturers to make their boxes or contract the TiVo SW to run on their boxes, like a company like Evolution Digital, as we've discussed.


Not sure how that would work without control over the content. Comcast is able to offer a cloud DVR because they are the ones proving the content, so they have access to it before it's sent to you. The only way TiVo could do a cloud DVR is by uploading local recordings to the cloud via your internet connection. With caps and asymetrical internet speeds I just can't see them doing that. Even if they transcoded on the fly the files would still be quite large.

Only way I could see them doing a cloud DVR is if they partnered with a content provider so they could "record" the content directly to the cloud DVR.


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## satpro (Jan 9, 2004)

Ira Bahr said:


> We have tested this and believe that all Series 1 boxes will be able to still use manual recordings (time and channel) as a mechanism to record. However, the box will NOT be dialing in and you will have no program data. We have no official support for this which is why we have the $75 offer and box discounts for impacted customers. In addition to the recording limitation, there are other limitations and error screens that will appear on the Series 1 boxes. Do manual recordings still work if your're willing to deal with the inconveninces? The answer is a qualified "yes." Just know that it is not the intended use of the box for our customers.


*Currently the series 1 boxes have to dial in 4 times a year to correct the time even if it does not drift. Once on the new daylight savings date and then again on the old daylight saving date that is coded, then again at the end of DST on the new date and a forth time on the old DST end.*

I still don't see a definitive answer to this, I am not sure they are even aware of the reality of how the current series 1 time set requirements work.

Will the time set work with existing access numbers or are certain dialup numbers going to be turned off eventually. It would be nice if they could just have one 1-800 number that the boxes could dial in to change their time if it drifts and for the 4 times a year when daylight saving time comes into play.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

S2/S3 units still have modems so they can't get rid of the dial in numbers completely. 

IIRC the TiVo code has a contengency mode they can throw it into. They added this early on so that the early adopters, who paid large sums for their devices, would still be able to use them as digital VCRs if TiVo went under. I wonder if they're just going to throw the switch on that once the transition happens?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

satpro said:


> *Currently the series 1 boxes have to dial in 4 times a year to correct the time even if it does not drift. Once on the new daylight savings date and then again on the old daylight saving date that is coded, then again at the end of DST on the new date and a forth time on the old DST end.*
> 
> I still don't see a definitive answer to this, I am not sure they are even aware of the reality of how the current series 1 time set requirements work.
> 
> Will the time set work with existing access numbers or are certain dialup numbers going to be turned off eventually. It would be nice if they could just have one 1-800 number that the boxes could dial in to change their time if it drifts and for the 4 times a year when daylight saving time comes into play.


With all due respect I don't know why you would even try to keep the thing alive! There has to be some option...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah, you'd be better served if you used your $75 to buy a S2.


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## satpro (Jan 9, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> S2/S3 units still have modems so they can't get rid of the dial in numbers completely.
> 
> IIRC the TiVo code has a contengency mode they can throw it into. They added this early on so that the early adopters, who paid large sums for their devices, would still be able to use them as digital VCRs if TiVo went under. I wonder if they're just going to throw the switch on that once the transition happens?


Exactly but there was still no known built in way to set the clock manually without the a dial in for clock set. They could change the account status on the series 1 to avoid the nag screens and load a dummy guide with 30 minute blocks of time.

I have a Roamio for OTA but still use the HDR312 for dish network manual recordings since it has something the new ones don't an RCA input for recording.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I remember, way back, TiVolutionary (Richard Bullwinkle) said that there was some back door TiVo could turn on that would allow you to manually set the clock.


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## satpro (Jan 9, 2004)

I find the following here:

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/archive/index.php/t-377783.html



> mikerr
> 04-29-2008, 02:50 PM
> You can actually set the clock manually, even on an unhacked tivo using backdoor codes:
> 
> ...


However, if I remember correctly the backdoors dont work since v3 and also because you can't reach the search by title screen on an unsubbed unit so you cant enable them.

http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26530


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

satpro said:


> I find the following here:
> 
> http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/archive/index.php/t-377783.html
> 
> ...


This is what I was referring to...

http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?threadid=32898

The original post by Tivolutionary was on the original forum, which was part of avsforum not it's own site, and doesn't appear to be archived anywhere but luckily Otto quoted it in the above post.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Ira Bahr said:


> We have tested this and believe that all Series 1 boxes will be able to still use manual recordings (time and channel) as a mechanism to record. However, *the box will NOT be dialing in* and you will have no program data. We have no official support for this which is why we have the $75 offer and box discounts for impacted customers. In addition to the recording limitation, there are other limitations and error screens that will appear on the Series 1 boxes. *Do manual recordings still work if your're willing to deal with the inconveninces? The answer is a qualified "yes."* Just know that it is not the intended use of the box for our customers.


Seems to me like Ira was pretty clear in saying that S1 owners *_should_* be able to do manual recordings as a workaround but TiVo isn't guaranteeing anything and they're not doing anything to make that manual process any less of a hassle for users. I guess TiVo figures that there would be some kind of engineering cost to them to create, test and support even a limited fall-back solution for those few working S1 units in the field and it's just not worth it to do that. Hence the $75 pay-off.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Not sure how that would work without control over the content. Comcast is able to offer a cloud DVR because they are the ones proving the content, so they have access to it before it's sent to you. The only way TiVo could do a cloud DVR is by uploading local recordings to the cloud via your internet connection. With caps and asymetrical internet speeds I just can't see them doing that. Even if they transcoded on the fly the files would still be quite large.
> 
> Only way I could see them doing a cloud DVR is if they partnered with a content provider so they could "record" the content directly to the cloud DVR.


Yeah, true. But the bigger issue, I think, is that it seems doubtful that any of the big cablecos right now are willing to collaborate with TiVo (or anyone else) to produce a first-rate cloud-powered *retail* DVR specifically engineered to work with their services. That would undermine everything that those cablecos are telling the FCC right now in their efforts to undermine "Unlock the Box".

Without some kind of next-gen successor to the CableCARD standard, I just can't see how TiVo can provide much innovation to their retail boxes for cable users beyond cosmetic enhancements to the UI. But perhaps one or more of the major cablecos is rolling out a new/updated on-demand app for TiVo with a modern UI and enhanced features? I could imagine Comcast replacing the old-style Xfinity OnDemand app with a new one that sports a more X1-inspired modern UI.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Not sure how that would work without control over the content. Comcast is able to offer a cloud DVR because they are the ones proving the content, so they have access to it before it's sent to you. The only way TiVo could do a cloud DVR is by uploading local recordings to the cloud via your internet connection. With caps and asymetrical internet speeds I just can't see them doing that. Even if they transcoded on the fly the files would still be quite large. Only way I could see them doing a cloud DVR is if they partnered with a content provider so they could "record" the content directly to the cloud DVR.


Yeah maybe one of the streaming apps/services like vue and sling?


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## ashipkowski (Oct 8, 2008)

satpro said:


> However, if I remember correctly the backdoors dont work since v3 and also because you can't reach the search by title screen on an unsubbed unit so you cant enable them.


I can't speak to the title search, but there are backdoors on my v3 Series1; the backdoor code (given I have to re-enter it after every power outage) is "3 0 BC", followed by a Thumbs-Up -- those are spaces. Fastest way to enter it on the title search is to use the number keypad and fast-forward to enter a space -- though watch out for getting sucked into the titles because there's only one program starting with a "3!"

So, perhaps that method will work to enter the time manually, if one wants to do so.


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## El Maestro (Nov 19, 2013)

Man, I really like it when TiVo folks come here and do this. What other company would give that kind of interaction? 

My big takeaway from it is that at least for the near term, TiVo has a plan/product roadmap so maybe we aren't at "Code Red" with respect to its future, at least for now.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Mikeyis4dcats said:


> could this just be the Tivo Online streaming beta? Wonder if that will allow you to stream multiple sources via the web app?


Maybe, although it would really be underwhelming (IMO) if TiVo's big 2017 CES reveal is that.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

Thank you for your time. I would have liked to have heard more about the plans for Premiere units, UI color changes to match Bolt, and further optimization for it to run faster. It seems like TiVo simply doesn't care about the Premiere anymore. Also what the plans are for the TiVo Mega.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

JWhites said:


> Thank you for your time. I would have liked to have heard more about the plans for Premiere units, UI color changes to match Bolt, and further optimization for it to run faster. It seems like TiVo simply doesn't care about the Premiere anymore. Also what the plans are for the TiVo Mega.


The hardware in the Premiere is from 2009 or earlier. It got a MAJOR software upgrade in 2014 that radically improved it's performance. As a DVR the Premiere series is more than functional, as an OTT streamer not so much. While I believe it is very likely TiVo will continue to update the Premiere's software to match the Roamios & Bolt for some time I would not expect any performance increases, the hardware is just too old and out of date.


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## Mikeyis4dcats (Oct 2, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Maybe, although it would really be underwhelming (IMO) if TiVo's big 2017 CES reveal is that.


when's the last time you were wowed by Tivo?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Mikeyis4dcats said:


> when's the last time you were wowed by Tivo?


I guess when I learned about the TiVo Roamio OTA with OnePass, a few months before I bought one in the spring of last year. I was wowed by the thought of what I _hoped_ it would be: a first-class OTA DVR that elegantly integrates content from popular streaming sources, making it the "all-in-one" cord-cutter box. The reality has been frustrating though. While I've been very satisfied with its core DVR functionality (aside from a few minor quibbles), its streaming apps and their incorporation into OnePass has been a letdown. I finally just gave up on trying to use my TiVo for everything.

My typical TV viewing pattern in the evening is now to turn on the TiVo for a bit of live channel surfing, maybe watch a recording of the NBC Nightly News and possibly a recording of something else. But I typically don't keep the TiVo on very long before switching over to my Apple TV to stream content from Hulu (ad-free), Showtime, Netflix, HBO, CBSN, and/or PBS. The bulk of viewing that I really care about is now done on the Apple TV.

I was hoping that Ira would indicate that their mystery "non-traditional DVR" product would be coming out this fall and would somehow offer an improved streaming platform, perhaps married to OTA TV. Perhaps that's what we'll see rolled out at CES next January, although I'm doubtful.

EDIT: Actually, on second thought, I was pretty wowed by SkipMode when it debuted on the Bolt last year and very pleasantly surprised when it was rolled out to us Roamio users. It's a great feature!


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> While I believe it is very likely TiVo will continue to update the Premiere's software to match the Roamios & Bolt for some time I would not expect any performance increases, the hardware is just too old and out of date.


Does the Premiere suffer from Spinning Blue Circles when the TiVo servers go wonky, like the Roamio? I could see optimization in multi-threaded code to eliminate this by handling network requests asynchronously. If the Premiere shares this code with the Roamio and Bolt, I could see a slim chance of it happening. I won't hold my breath waiting for it to be changed on any TiVo. <shrug>


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Mikeyis4dcats said:


> when's the last time you were wowed by Tivo?


SkipMode. Something I never expected from them in a million years and has completely changed how I watch recorded content. (I get annoyed when I have to manually FF now)


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

justen_m said:


> Does the Premiere suffer from Spinning Blue Circles when the TiVo servers go wonky, like the Roamio? I could see optimization in multi-threaded code to eliminate this by handling network requests asynchronously. If the Premiere shares this code with the Roamio and Bolt, I could see a slim chance of it happening. I won't hold my breath waiting for it to be changed on any TiVo. <shrug>


The Premiere software is pretty much identical to the Roamio software at least from the point of view on how it works and looks in the menus. I have had the spinning blue circle issues in the past (on the Premiere, Roamio, & Bolt) and if I am (or TiVo is) having network issues will get them now (not as bad as in the past), but it doesn't happen very often. That is certainly an issue that could/should be addressed but not what I assumed was being talked about. From my point of view the Premeire is now acceptable when using the DVR functions but pretty much sucks if you try to use the streaming apps.


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## OmeneX (Jul 2, 2016)

Agreed. SkipMode is the Bee's knees. I wish TiVo could expand even more on it - but I'm sure they are running up against legal issues and barriers and brick walls and ninja lawyers with flaming katanas riding Harley Davidsons chased by helicopters with rockets, piloted by velociraptors with laser headgear.. They don't like it when people skip ads.

Just like Ira mentioned. _"It was a long fight with our legal department!"_


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> SkipMode. Something I never expected from them in a million years and has completely changed how I watch recorded content. (I get annoyed when I have to manually FF now)


Yup.

There is little wow that can be achieved with DVRs/streaming devices anymore. And that makes skip mode stand out even more. It is so simple and so elegant and works great.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> Yup.
> 
> There is little wow that can be achieved with DVRs/streaming devices anymore. And that makes skip mode stand out even more. It is so simple and so elegant and works great.


When it comes to traditional DVRs, I agree. But among streaming devices, there's plenty of room for improvement when it comes to integrating various streaming sources with each other (as well as with live and recorded broadcast TV). I think that's the big UX problem that's waiting to be solved. Apple seems to think so too.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> When it comes to traditional DVRs, I agree. But among streaming devices, there's plenty of room for improvement when it comes to integrating various streaming sources with each other (as well as with live and recorded broadcast TV). I think that's the big UX problem that's waiting to be solved. Apple seems to think so too.


Apple is in the same boat as TiVo, Roku, Amazon TV, or anyone else. They can do very little without each providers individual cooperation. TiVo's attempt to integrate some of these streaming services data into their search and One Pass features is the same thing. Frankly a TV Guide that listed all the movies/shows available on Netflix, Hulu, & Amazon would be worthless as it would take more time than I spend watching TV to go through it. Search & suggestions are really the only answer when it comes to large VoD libraries. .


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

atmuscarella said:


> Apple is in the same boat as TiVo, Roku, Amazon TV, or anyone else. They can do very little without each providers individual cooperation. TiVo's attempt to integrate some of these streaming services data into their search and One Pass features is the same thing. Frankly a TV Guide that listed all the movies/shows available on Netflix, Hulu, & Amazon would be worthless as it would take more time than I spend watching TV to go through it. Search & suggestions are really the only answer when it comes to large VoD libraries. .


I don't think such a universal guide (especially one that is curated to promote new/popular/critically-acclaimed content) would be useless at all. I'd love it. And to say that Apple is in the same boat as others isn't really accurate. Given their size and industry influence, they're certainly not in the same boat as TiVo. If anyone could convince the content providers to participate in a universal guide, it's Apple.

I just don't believe that content divided up and siloed away in separate app UIs is where TV is ultimately going.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> I don't think such a universal guide (especially one that is curated to promote new/popular/critically-acclaimed content) would be useless at all. I'd love it. And to say that Apple is in the same boat as others isn't really accurate. Given their size and industry influence, they're certainly not in the same boat as TiVo. If anyone could convince the content providers to participate in a universal guide, it's Apple.
> 
> I just don't believe that content divided up and siloed away in separate app UIs is where TV is ultimately going.


What exactly does Apple lead in? They are not the largest provider of stand alone streaming devices, they don't provide any TVs, Blu-ray players, gaming councils, or DVRs with streaming services, Android has more mobile devices, Windows has more computers. I don't think Apple has any more influence in the streaming services world than Roku, Google, Microsoft, Sony, Amazon, Samsung and maybe not as much as some of them. Unfortunately TiVo has even less.

Other than possible action by the FCC with traditional cable as they move to IP delivery, I see Zero evidence that we are headed for anything other than separate app UIs. Netflix has zero interest in a combined UI that makes it easy to switch to another service while your accessing theirs and my guess is no other provider is either.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> I just don't believe that content divided up and siloed away in separate app UIs is where TV is ultimately going.


But that's precisely what each content provider wants. They all think their UI is the best and that you should want to use it to find everything. Plus they use this as a way to box out competition.

Amazon and VUDU don't want to be shown together in a single universal search/guide because then people will shop solely on price. They want people to get use to their way of doing things so that people always buy from them even when the competition is cheaper.

The MSOs are especially resistant to this. They want everyone to use their UI because they don't want their over priced VOD offerings to have to compete directly with OTT services. This is why they're currently pushing so hard for an apps approach as a replacement for CableCARD.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> But that's precisely what each content provider wants. They all think their UI is the best and that you should want to use it to find everything. Plus they use this as a way to box out competition.
> 
> Amazon and VUDU don't want to be shown together in a single universal search/guide because then people will shop solely on price. They want people to get use to their way of doing things so that people always buy from them even when the competition is cheaper.
> 
> The MSOs are especially resistant to this. They want everyone to use their UI because they don't want their over priced VOD offerings to have to compete directly with OTT services. This is why they're currently pushing so hard for an apps approach as a replacement for CableCARD.


Plus Apple is a direct competitor to lots of streaming services. I am sure they would be happy to let Apple take control by giving up their UI.


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## Steve (Apr 24, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> SkipMode. Something I never expected from them in a million years and has completely changed how I watch recorded content. (I get annoyed when I have to manually FF now)


I think Ira missed the second part of the SkipMode question, "Will it be made available to mobile devices?"


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Steve said:


> I think Ira missed the second part of the SkipMode question, "Will it be made available to mobile devices?"


I tried to sneak that in after the deadline. He likely already had the list before I added that. I was hoping I snuck that one in there early enough, but apparently not.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

atmuscarella said:


> What exactly does Apple lead in? They are not the largest provider of stand alone streaming devices, they don't provide any TVs, Blu-ray players, gaming councils, or DVRs with streaming services, Android has more mobile devices, Windows has more computers. I don't think Apple has any more influence in the streaming services world than Roku, Google, Microsoft, Sony, Amazon, Samsung and maybe not as much as some of them. Unfortunately TiVo has even less.
> 
> Other than possible action by the FCC with traditional cable as they move to IP delivery, I see Zero evidence that we are headed for anything other than separate app UIs. Netflix has zero interest in a combined UI that makes it easy to switch to another service while your accessing theirs and my guess is no other provider is either.


Look at the number of apps available for Apple's platforms versus others. Look at the amount of money spent by customers on Apple apps versus others. Look at the disposable income of Apple customers versus non-Apple customers. Look at the huge role that Apple played in transforming the music industry. And look at Apple's market cap rank worldwide (#1 or 2). I'm not saying that Apple is the end-all-be-all but they have huge influence. I disagree that Google, Microsoft, Amazon or Samsung has just as much influence in the entertainment/streaming industry.

I agree that streaming services don't want to see their content disintermediated from their UIs but if Apple can convince them that allowing a universal guide (maybe one that isn't exhaustive) will help customers discover and watch more of their content, then maybe it could happen. And, given that all the top apps are already incorporated into Apple TV's universal voice search, they've already partially given up the battle anyway. Who knows what other carrots (or threats) Apple could dangle to urge streaming services to get on board with their plans...


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## Steve (Apr 24, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I tried to sneak that in after the deadline. He likely already had the list before I added that. I was hoping I snuck that one in there early enough, but apparently not.


Thanks for trying! In the words of Maxwell Smart, "Missed it by that much!"


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Mikeyis4dcats said:


> when's the last time you were wowed by Tivo?


SkipMode is pretty "wow".


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Thanks David for taking the time to interview Ira. It's nice to have some real info vs. persistent rumors. Also thanks to IRA for taking time out to answer the questions.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> Look at the number of apps available for Apple's platforms versus others. Look at the amount of money spent by customers on Apple apps versus others. Look at the disposable income of Apple customers versus non-Apple customers. Look at the huge role that Apple played in transforming the music industry. And look at Apple's market cap rank worldwide (#1 or 2). I'm not saying that Apple is the end-all-be-all but they have huge influence. I disagree that Google, Microsoft, Amazon or Samsung has just as much influence in the entertainment/streaming industry.
> 
> I agree that streaming services don't want to see their content disintermediated from their UIs but if Apple can convince them that allowing a universal guide (maybe one that isn't exhaustive) will help customers discover and watch more of their content, then maybe it could happen. And, given that all the top apps are already incorporated into Apple TV's universal voice search, they've already partially given up the battle anyway. Who knows what other carrots (or threats) Apple could dangle to urge streaming services to get on board with their plans...


What Apple did to the music industry is exactly why the video industry hasn't allowed Apple to take control and why the video industry doesn't trust them.

Apps that are not for video streaming service are irrelevant as we are talking about video streaming services, not the iOS platform.

Netflix, Hulu, & Amazon (3 of the big 4 with YouTube being the fourth and not fitting this model at all) have made it so their services can be access on nearly everything. That is by design to assure that someone like Apple can not control them. As more OTT services come on line any that become successful will do the same. Plus service like Vudu (Walmart) are direct competitors with Apple and know full well giving Apple any more control than is absolutely necessary is a prescription for disaster.

In the end Streaming Services will only allow what they believe will benefit their bottom line. It will be interesting to see if Apple can show how that will happen or if they can find away to do something that doesn't require the Streaming services to agree to anything new.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

bradleys said:


> I suppose this doesn't surprise me, but it was interesting to see it in writing...


Definitely disappointing since 50% of my viewing is probably from transfers and the other 50% from the current recordings. As long as I don't lose my PyTiVo push access, I can deal with it.

Still waiting to see the support for community projects like KMTTG and PyTiVo from the last Q&A though.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

innocentfreak said:


> Definitely disappointing since 50% of my viewing is probably from transfers and the other 50% from the current recordings. As long as I don't lose my PyTiVo push access, I can deal with it.
> 
> Still waiting to see the support for community projects like KMTTG and PyTiVo from the last Q&A though.


Well like anything TiVo, unsupported simply means they will no longer enhance it or provide tools for it.

TiVo is reticent to remove functionality that a large part of the community uses, so i do not think the will eliminate the functionality any time soon.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> When it comes to traditional DVRs, I agree. But among streaming devices, there's plenty of room for improvement when it comes to integrating various streaming sources with each other (as well as with live and recorded broadcast TV). I think that's the big UX problem that's waiting to be solved. Apple seems to think so too.


Better searching and indexing is good stuff but i wouldn't call it a wow factor. TiVo already has one pass and swivel search. The concepts are great. Better execution doesn't make them wow. Roku has a search and follow.

Wow means something either really new or totally elegant. Skip mode isn't really new. Dish had something along the same lines for years now. But the execution is extremely elegant and simple. That's what made it wow.

I'm not saying they can't come up with a new wow. Just that it is getting harder in all spaces. Traditional dvrs are pretty much figured out. And there is little to nothing that can be done with streaming that a cheap computer can't do.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

atmuscarella said:


> Apps that are not for video streaming service are irrelevant as we are talking about video streaming services, not the iOS platform.


Wrong again. Streaming is done on a range of devices, mobile phones, tablets, laptops and set-top boxes, all areas that Apple is very strong in with a robust app ecosystem and a unified app/media store that has LOTS of credit card numbers on file. No one else (not Google, Microsoft, Amazon or Samsung) quite has all that (although Google comes closest). Those advantages (along with their outsized media coverage/public mindshare and fandom among creative types) are what sets Apple apart and gives them greater influence than their competitors, allowing for things like a splashy exclusive launch of HBO Now on Apple devices. You're right that the major powers that be in video entertainment aren't going to allow Apple to dominate them the way they did the music industry but, as I said, if anyone can persuade them to participate in a unified UI/universal guide (the same way they persuaded them to participate in universal search), it's Apple. And if Apple gets them to play along, they'll probably agree to participate in similar guides for competing streaming platforms.



TonyD79 said:


> Wow means something either really new or totally elegant.
> 
> I'm not saying they can't come up with a new wow. Just that it is getting harder in all spaces. Traditional dvrs are pretty much figured out. And there is little to nothing that can be done with streaming that a cheap computer can't do.


The guy asked when was the last time I was wowed by TiVo. Obviously, what "wows" you is a subjective question. Based on how you see it, I guess it would be impossible for a mature product type like a TiVo to wow you. Fair enough. It is true that the longer a product type has been around, the less room for innovation exists. There really is very little room for improvement in the core DVR functionality of TiVos at this point, which is probably why a lot of the talk on this forum is about the other aspects of TiVo where there is room for improvement: streaming, on-demand, cloud DVR, and UI integration of those functions with traditional DVR features.

As far as cheap computers and streaming, well, uh, yeah, pretty much all dedicated streaming STBs are cheap computers. It's not really about the hardware (although somewhat better hardware is needed to handle, for instance, UHD streaming) as much as it's about the software and UI.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> Wrong again. Streaming is done on a range of devices, mobile phones, tablets, laptops and set-top boxes, all areas that Apple is very strong in with a robust app ecosystem and a unified app/media store that has LOTS of credit card numbers on file. No one else (not Google, Microsoft, Amazon or Samsung) quite has all that (although Google comes closest). Those advantages (along with their outsized media coverage/public mindshare and fandom among creative types) are what sets Apple apart and gives them greater influence than their competitors, allowing for things like a splashy exclusive launch of HBO Now on Apple devices. You're right that the major powers that be in video entertainment aren't going to allow Apple to dominate them the way they did the music industry but, as I said, if anyone can persuade them to participate in a unified UI/universal guide (the same way they persuaded them to participate in universal search), it's Apple. And if Apple gets them to play along, they'll probably agree to participate in similar guides for competing streaming platforms.


I understand what you are saying - Apple plays in a wider part of the field than most players via iOS devices and Apple TV devices. Apple is also a very innovative company with plenty of resources so they can afford to make a heavier upfront investment than many companies.

On down side they also don't lead/dominate in any area and don't play in several areas where accessing streaming services occurs. In the end it still comes down to Apple convincing enough streaming services they will be better off financially letting Apple have more control over the UI than going it alone.

Not sure it is possible to get Netflix, Amazon or even Hulu to believe that, there is a significant down side to each of these players for people to easily see what other services offer and at what price. Plus with the advent of add on services both Amazon & Hulu are moving to do what an Apple unified UI would do, combine and offer multiple services in one UI. I could see Apple getting their service and allot of the smaller players together in one UI. Guess time will tell.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

atmuscarella said:


> Plus with the advent of add on services both Amazon & Hulu are moving to do what an Apple unified UI would do, combine and offer multiple services in one UI. I could see Apple getting their service and allot of the smaller players together in one UI. Guess time will tell.


This is an excellent point and one of the potential scenarios I see playing out going forward too. I think both Hulu and Amazon have aspirations to be the next-gen streaming equivalent of cable companies, that is, aggregators of various services into one package with unified billing. And yes, that's what Apple wants as well, although maybe in a little different way. (Google has designs here too, to some extent.) It's hard to say just how things will change in the streaming world going forward but I tend to be optimistic that options will proliferate while solutions will emerge to integrate and simplify the overall experience. We'll see...


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## Krandor (Jun 10, 2004)

NashGuy said:


> This is an excellent point and one of the potential scenarios I see playing out going forward too. I think both Hulu and Amazon have aspirations to be the next-gen streaming equivalent of cable companies, that is, aggregators of various services into one package with unified billing. And yes, that's what Apple wants as well, although maybe in a little different way. (Google has designs here too, to some extent.) It's hard to say just how things will change in the streaming world going forward but I tend to be optimistic that options will proliferate while solutions will emerge to integrate and simplify the overall experience. We'll see...


There has to be some consolidation in the streaming market the question is what form will it take. I've already heard some people in relation to the new Star Trek on CBS all access saying "I already pay for Netflix and Amazon.... I'm not paying another monthly fee for another service". That will continue to become an issue as more people get into streaming. The question is what is going to emerge and in what form.


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

I'm curious if they ever plan to add out of home streaming over cellular to the iOS app. They announced that it was coming soon when the app first got streaming but it has never happened.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NYHeel said:


> I'm curious if they ever plan to add out of home streaming over cellular to the iOS app. They announced that it was coming soon when the app first got streaming but it has never happened.


That's more a restriction imposed by Apple. Apple has strick rules about the bitrates that need to be used for audio/video before they allow streaming over the cellular network.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> That's more a restriction imposed by Apple. Apple has strick rules about the bitrates that need to be used for audio/video before they allow streaming over the cellular network.


So streaming over cellular is available with Android?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> The guy asked when was the last time I was wowed by TiVo. Obviously, what "wows" you is a subjective question. Based on how you see it, I guess it would be impossible for a mature product type like a TiVo to wow you. Fair enough.
> .


You need to read again. I said skip mode was a wow. I'm saying it is hard to wow at this point. Not impossible.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

geekmedic said:


> So streaming over cellular is available with Android?


Yes


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> You need to read again. I said skip mode was a wow. I'm saying it is hard to wow at this point. Not impossible.


Ah, sorry, I see now. You sort of buried the lede there but did ultimately call it a "wow" because it's elegant, even if not new. OK.

Yes, the simplicity of it is great (press a single button at each commercial break) but I think it stands out because it can be used almost immediately after a show ends while Dish's autohop feature (which can be enacted for an entire show with only one button press at the first commercial break) requires the user to wait anywhere from one to eight days after the show is recorded. (Does autohop work on cable channels or only the big 4 broadcast nets?)


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Ah, sorry, I see now. You sort of buried the lede there but did ultimately call it a "wow" because it's elegant, even if not new. OK.
> 
> Yes, the simplicity of it is great (press a single button at each commercial break) but I think it stands out because it can be used almost immediately after a show ends while Dish's autohop feature (which can be enacted for an entire show with only one button press at the first commercial break) requires the user to wait anywhere from one to eight days after the show is recorded. (Does autohop work on cable channels or only the big 4 broadcast nets?)


That's part of the elegance as I see it.

I think auto hop is only prime time big 4. Not only do you have to wait, the auto hop goes away after a week, I think.


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> That's part of the elegance as I see it.
> 
> I think auto hop is only prime time big 4. Not only do you have to wait, the auto hop goes away after a week, I think.


Auto-Hop is only on the Big 4 during Primetime, but it remains on the show as long as the recording is still on the Hopper.

Dish has also been re-enabling autohop immediately on the OTA recordings for stations that are in re-transmission dispute with Dish. So for example tribune stations have autohop available on OTA recordings at 1am the night of the recordings instead of waiting the 3 or 7 days that Dish has recently negotiated into retransmission contracts.

Unfortunately it doesn't help Hopper 3 customers as the H3 and the OTA module are not working correctly at the moment when recording.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

osu1991 said:


> .
> 
> Dish has also been re-enabling autohop immediately on the OTA recordings for stations that are in re-transmission dispute with Dish. So for example tribune stations have autohop available on OTA recordings at 1am the night of the recordings instead of waiting the 3 or 7 days that Dish has recently negotiated into retransmission contracts.


Typical cut throat action by Charlie.


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## cannonz (Oct 23, 2011)

Ira Bahr said:


> There is a two-step process. Just this week, we updated the software on the S2-S6 boxes for the new data feeds. Starting next week we will be transitioning these boxes to the new data. During that download which will occur in the early AM hours and take two to three hours, the box will not be fully functional. After that, the DVR will function normally. We've done a ton of testing but we're counting on you guys to post any anomalies you might observe. Right now, we think the most obvious defect will be generic poster art on certain assets.


Will the update always be there, if someone has Tivo that is not currently hooked up, if in say 6 months from now it is put to use will it update? If so would it be best to do a clear program and to do list before connecting?


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

Here's something that would WOW me. The new Mini should just be an Android TV app. The Nvidia Shield TV already supports 4K. Why keep reinventing the wheel? Although I have to admit that MOCA integration into the current Mini is nice. I think most people would also appreciate 802.11ac Wifi support which the Shield TV already has.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mlcarson said:


> Here's something that would WOW me. The new Mini should just be an Android TV app. The Nvidia Shield TV already supports 4K. Why keep reinventing the wheel? Although I have to admit that MOCA integration into the current Mini is nice. I think most people would also appreciate 802.11ac Wifi support which the Shield TV already has.


The Nvidia Shield TV is a really nice box. I'll probably buy either it or the upcoming Mi Box (another Android TV streamer) this fall as my go-to main TV box.

As for offering a TiVo Mini app for the Shield TV (or any other popular streaming box), do you think TiVo could charge enough for the app to get the same profit margins on it as it would on the sale of an actual TiVo Mini box? I tend to doubt it. People think of apps as either free or cheap software, whereas hardware costs real money.


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## stamasd (Jun 26, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah, you'd be better served if you used your $75 to buy a S2.


My two S1 with lifetime are working perfectly fine - but soon they won't. Now I have to go and find out where I can find a couple of series 2 boxes to buy, lose all my custom settings and hacks, pay for new service etc.

I'm awash with joy.


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## bkc56 (Apr 29, 2001)

stamasd said:


> Now I have to go and find out where I can find a couple of series 2 boxes to buy...


Why not do the same deal that I an others did moving to a couple discounted bolts with transferred lifetime and the $75 on top? It'll probably be cheaper in the long run if you lose the lifetime service and have to pay for service again.


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## stamasd (Jun 26, 2002)

bkc56 said:


> Why not do the same deal that I an others did moving to a couple discounted bolts with transferred lifetime and the $75 on top? It'll probably be cheaper in the long run if you lose the lifetime service and have to pay for service again.


Because I don't have $500+ that I can spend now.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

stamasd said:


> Because I don't have $500+ that I can spend now.


 .


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

stamasd said:


> Because I don't have $500+ that I can spend now.


It is very likely you could sell one of the Bolts for enough so that the other would be free and you might even get enough to buy a Mini.


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## stamasd (Jun 26, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> It is very likely you could sell one of the Bolts for enough so that the other would be free and you might even get enough to buy a Mini.


That still requires me to spend $500 now. Which I can't.


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## stamasd (Jun 26, 2002)

So it looks right now that Tivo doesn't even know whom they sent the emails about the S1 or not. I just spent 45 minutes on the phone with CSR Steve and supervisor Zack and they don't seem to have any record of them sending me the email with the offer. Basically a polite way of saying they won't transfer my subscription. They had me forward the email I received to some generic email address @tivo.com and "expect to hear from us in the future"

Thus for anyone who says "call them and they'll transfer your lifetime subscription" that's not true. Or not true anymore.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

stamasd said:


> So it looks right now that Tivo doesn't even know whom they sent the emails about the S1 or not. I just spent 45 minutes on the phone with CSR Steve and supervisor Zack and they don't seem to have any record of them sending me the email with the offer. Basically a polite way of saying they won't transfer my subscription. They had me forward the email I received to some generic email address @tivo.com and "expect to hear from us in the future"
> 
> Thus for anyone who says "call them and they'll transfer your lifetime subscription" that's not true. Or not true anymore.


Is your S1 in your name in a TiVo account, the original Series 1 did not need any account to work.


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## TiVoJedi (Mar 1, 2002)

OmeneX said:


> Agreed. SkipMode is the Bee's knees. I wish TiVo could expand even more on it - but I'm sure they are running up against legal issues and barriers and brick walls and ninja lawyers with flaming katanas riding Harley Davidsons chased by helicopters with rockets, piloted by velociraptors with laser headgear.. They don't like it when people skip ads.
> 
> Just like Ira mentioned. _"It was a long fight with our legal department!"_


I've used the 30-second skip forever on my S1

http://www.weaknees.com/30/
We talking about the same kind of skip?


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## TiVoJedi (Mar 1, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> That's more a restriction imposed by Apple. Apple has strick rules about the bitrates that need to be used for audio/video before they allow streaming over the cellular network.


Or downloading big updates, but jailbreak tweaks like 3G Unrestrictor allow you to supercede those limits.


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## stamasd (Jun 26, 2002)

lessd said:


> Is your S1 in your name in a TiVo account, the original Series 1 did not need any account to work.


Yes it is I can access the details online. But for some reason the Tivo CSRs seem not to be able to access it, or at least pretend not to. I guess that would be an excuse for a denial.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

TiVoJedi said:


> I've used the 30-second skip forever on my S1
> 
> http://www.weaknees.com/30/
> We talking about the same kind of skip?


No. https://support.tivo.com/articles/Features_Use/SkipMode


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TiVoJedi said:


> I've used the 30-second skip forever on my S1
> 
> http://www.weaknees.com/30/ We talking about the same kind of skip?


No, SkipMode is not the same as 30-second skip. SM embeds a code into certain recordings (prime time shows on popular channels) that allows you to press one button at the start of the commercial break and it will automatically jump to the end of the commercial break. This is only available on Bolt and Roamio.


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## bkc56 (Apr 29, 2001)

stamasd said:


> Because I don't have $500+ that I can spend now.


It would actually be closer to $250 + tax - $75 (gift card). For me that's $271 - $75 for a *$196* net cost. The 500G unit would be even less (perhaps around $100 net).

But I understand your point. ANY cost is too much if you don't have the cash available at the moment.


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## stamasd (Jun 26, 2002)

bkc56 said:


> It would actually be closer to $250 + tax - $75 (gift card). For me that's $271 - $75 for a *$196* net cost. The 500G unit would be even less (perhaps around $100 net).
> 
> But I understand your point. ANY cost is too much if you don't have the cash available at the moment.


The $500 would be for 2 units. I could suck up and use only 1 instead, but as detailed in my post above Tivo are dragging their feet about allowing me to transfer even one subscription to a new box. Which leaves me with no working Tivos after September.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

stamasd said:


> The $500 would be for 2 units. I could suck up and use only 1 instead, but as detailed in my post above Tivo are dragging their feet about allowing me to transfer even one subscription to a new box. Which leaves me with no working Tivos after September.


Send a PM to TiVoSarah or TiVoMargret here on the forums and see if they can help.


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## stamasd (Jun 26, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> Send a PM to TiVoSarah or TiVoMargret here on the forums and see if they can help.


There is no such user as TiVoSarah, and TiVoMargret has a full inbox and can't accept PMs.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

stamasd said:


> There is no such user as TiVoSarah, and TiVoMargret has a full inbox and can't accept PMs.


Sorry, I know her name is Sarah, she's in this forum and works for TiVo and helps out here. Maybe try TiVo_Sarah or something similar?


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

TiVoSupport_Sarah's Profile
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/member.php?u=300681


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## bkc56 (Apr 29, 2001)

stamasd said:


> The $500 would be for 2 units. I could suck up and use only 1 instead, but as detailed in my post above Tivo are dragging their feet about allowing me to transfer even one subscription to a new box.


Yes, I also got two 1T Bolts (only 2 of my 4 lifetimes had called in during the specified time-frame).

And yes, I've seen that you are having problems because your units didn't call in during that time-frame). I hope you can make some progress.


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## stamasd (Jun 26, 2002)

bkc56 said:


> And yes, I've seen that you are having problems because your units didn't call in during that time-frame.


No, that's not it. At least one of my units has been calling daily for 16 years. But I had no success transferring the subscription from that one either.
(the other unit I've used intermittently)


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

stamasd said:


> My two S1 with lifetime are working perfectly fine - but soon they won't. Now I have to go and find out where I can find a couple of series 2 boxes to buy, lose all my custom settings and hacks, pay for new service etc.
> 
> I'm awash with joy.





stamasd said:


> So it looks right now that Tivo doesn't even know whom they sent the emails about the S1 or not. I just spent 45 minutes on the phone with CSR Steve and supervisor Zack and they don't seem to have any record of them sending me the email with the offer. Basically a polite way of saying they won't transfer my subscription. They had me forward the email I received to some generic email address @tivo.com and "expect to hear from us in the future"
> 
> Thus for anyone who says "call them and they'll transfer your lifetime subscription" that's not true. Or not true anymore.





stamasd said:


> Yes it is I can access the details online. But for some reason the Tivo CSRs seem not to be able to access it, or at least pretend not to. I guess that would be an excuse for a denial.





stamasd said:


> There is no such user as TiVoSarah, and TiVoMargret has a full inbox and can't accept PMs.





stamasd said:


> No, that's not it. At least one of my units has been calling daily for 16 years. But I had no success transferring the subscription from that one either.
> (the other unit I've used intermittently)


Wow, you gotta lot of problems. And little desire to overcome them. 

People have given you suggestions, and you've crapped on every one of them. Make an effort. Call again, have your box id (or whatever it's called) ready. If it really calls in daily, they will have a record of it. Work at it, and you will get what you want, as 99% of posters have reported.

Or swim in misery. The choice is yours.


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## thyname (Dec 27, 2010)

Come on! Be a good American and put it in your credit card &#129304;


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## stamasd (Jun 26, 2002)

Thanks for your help. I won't let the door hit me on the way out.

So long Tivo, and thanks for all the fish.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Your loss.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I still think 16 years is a pretty good run for a piece of consumer electronics. I can't think of one other device out there that's 16 years old and still works. Maybe basic things like TVs and DVD players, but nothing that requires a daily connection and service.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

stamasd said:


> No, that's not it. At least one of my units has been calling daily for 16 years. But I had no success transferring the subscription from that one either.
> (the other unit I've used intermittently)


I think I may have a couple s1's that may be lifetimed. but if they are pre '99 or not I don't remember. and one or both may have tivonet or turbonet cards. But I know they haven't connected in a loooong time - no phone line. and not much reason to network them. They probably boot up becuase the drives were upgraded. i should say they may boot. I haven't read the s1 thread. Should I even bother? is there a chance they might qualify for some credit? I suppose no one will be interested in those cards either unless there is some use for a hacked s1 these days for some other purpose? and no they aren't on my account - I'm sure on that. I know the oldest I have on my account is an s2. there was no reason to put the S1 on the account as I recall. so is that another reason it would be a dead end and not worth bothering with? if the answer is "at least look at the thread" then ok, I will. thanks.


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## bkc56 (Apr 29, 2001)

tivoyahoo said:


> but if they are pre '99 or not I don't remember.


That's the one thing you should check into. Since they aren't in use, you won't qualify for any of the options people are getting. But IF the lifetime was activated early enough it would qualify for a one-time transfer. Call Tivo, give them the serial numbers, and they will tell you when they were activated.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

stamasd said:


> My two S1 with lifetime are working perfectly fine - but soon they won't. Now I have to go and find out where I can find a couple of series 2 boxes to buy, lose all my custom settings and hacks, pay for new service etc.
> 
> I'm awash with joy.


Are you using them with analog cable, no box, with cable box of some sort (if so, which one) or with an Over The Air adapter of some sort?

In which market?

And yeah, I think you have a valid point, you shouldn't have to spend anything to continue to have 2 working lifetimed single tuner units, since that's what you have now and it's TiVo that's changing the deal, not you.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I still think 16 years is a pretty good run for a piece of consumer electronics. I can't think of one other device out there that's 16 years old and still works. Maybe basic things like TVs and DVD players, but nothing that requires a daily connection and service.


That makes it sound like the S1s ran 16 years and then died, when they're actually being disabled from without rather than within.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> I still think 16 years is a pretty good run for a piece of consumer electronics. I can't think of one other device out there that's 16 years old and still works. Maybe basic things like TVs and DVD players, but nothing that requires a daily connection and service.


Hell, 16 years is a good run for anything. Looking around the house, other than some hanging pictures, I see hardly anything except a few pieces of furniture that are 16 years or older. Oops, my wife just walked in. Oh, one of my dogs is getting close to 16.

Would anyone here not be overjoyed if you were told that your tivos that you now have will have a 16 year lifetime? If I had an old TiVo that had only one tuner and only SD, I'd be praying that it died so I could get a new one.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

UCLABB said:


> Hell, 16 years is a good run for anything. Looking around the house, other than some hanging pictures, I see hardly anything except a few pieces of furniture that are 16 years or older. Oops, my wife just walked in. Oh, one of my dogs is getting close to 16.
> 
> Would anyone here not be overjoyed if you were told that your tivos that you now have will have a 16 year lifetime? If I had an old TiVo that had only one tuner and only SD, I'd be praying that it died so I could get a new one.


Yes, you're right, but it's also true that TiVo sold "lifetime" service, which is supposed to be for the life of the hardware (assuming, of course, that TiVo is still in business, which they are). So I can understand why some S1 folks with working units are unhappy right now.

It's probably for the best that TiVo now uses the term "all-in" rather than "lifetime" for their up-front pay-once service plans.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

First they came for the S1s....


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> Yes, you're right, but it's also true that TiVo sold "lifetime" service, which is supposed to be for the life of the hardware (assuming, of course, that TiVo is still in business, which they are). So I can understand why some S1 folks with working units are unhappy right now.
> 
> It's probably for the best that TiVo now uses the term "all-in" rather than "lifetime" for their up-front pay-once service plans.


And I'm guessing this is why they changed the name to "all in". I'm sure that when they sold "lifetime" service they didn't expect the hardware to continue to run for the better part of two decades.


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## WorldBandRadio (Dec 20, 2010)

Ira Bahr said:


> There is a two-step process. Just this week, we updated the software on the S2-S6 boxes for the new data feeds. Starting next week we will be transitioning these boxes to the new data. During that download which will occur in the early AM hours and take two to three hours, the box will not be fully functional. After that, the DVR will function normally. We've done a ton of testing but we're counting on you guys to post any anomalies you might observe. Right now, we think the most obvious defect will be generic poster art on certain assets.


During this process, was a "Clear Program Settings and ToDo List" process initiated?

The reason I ask is that a bunch of my recordings were deleted after the guide update process.

The deletion has the symptoms of a bug I found that causes recovered programs to be deleted when a Clear Program Settings and ToDo List process is performed.


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## convergent (Jan 4, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> And I'm guessing this is why they changed the name to "all in". I'm sure that when they sold "lifetime" service they didn't expect the hardware to continue to run for the better part of two decades.


They could have just called it "one time charge" vs. "monthly" or "yearly". I'm not sure what "all in" really means either.

The issue with people expecting something to work for two decades is that we are dealing with technology and technology changes over time. I used to be into PDAPhones and have a bunch of them from the Palm and Pocket PC error that are effectively useless now. I understand the phrase "lifetime" has some implications, but people with such old machines shouldn't be surprised.

But the bigger issue in all of this is that Tivo decided to switch to the Rovi data out of "their" convenience, not because it was going to enhance their subscribers' experience. And its apparently been quite the messed up migration. This is probably because they had to rush due to the deadline of their existing data expiring. What they should have done was renew their old data of a period of time to properly test the migration; but I'm sure someone made a financial decision for the short term instead of thinking about the disruption to their customers by a poorly tested migration.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

It sounds like Tribune/Gracenote refused to negotiate for a short-time renewal...it was long-term or the highway.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It sounds like Tribune/Gracenote refused to negotiate for a short-time renewal...it was long-term or the highway.


And even the long-term renewal would have been at a significantly-increased rate, given that Gracenote basically didn't want to be supplying it's data directly to its chief competitor, which is what would be happening as soon as the merger is complete.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

convergent said:


> They could have just called it "one time charge" vs. "monthly" or "yearly". I'm not sure what "all in" really means either.


"The All-In Plan ($599.99 one-time fee, plus any applicable taxes) replaces Product Lifetime Service (PLS). The All-In Plan provides service for the life of the TiVo device for which it is purchased, and remains with the device in the event of an ownership transfer. The All-In Plan is available for TiVo BOLT Series Unified Entertainment Systems and Roamio Pro DVRs. Devices that already have PLS will continue to receive service for the life of the device."

So no real change except for the name. And they don't define what "life" means, so it's still open to interpretation.


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## cncb (Jul 4, 2013)

It is disappointing that they seem to have no plans to deal with ATSC 3.0 with the current STBs.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

cncb said:


> It is disappointing that they seem to have no plans to deal with ATSC 3.0 with the current STBs.


Well, in TiVo's defense, it's still a bit early for that. The ATSC 3.0 standard isn't even finalized yet (probably will be by year-end or early 2017), nor has the FCC taken the necessary actions to allow ATSC 3.0 to even be implemented. So there are still technical and regulatory uncertainties, I guess. More importantly, there are market/business uncertainties in terms of how long it will take for 3.0 to be adopted, both by broadcasters and by consumers looking to tune into those signals.

So maybe we'll see TiVo offer some kind of patch to the Bolt and Roamio a couple of years from now that would allow them to work with external ATSC 3.0 tuners instead of (or in addition to) their internal 1.0 tuners. But you have to wonder if the benefits of doing that (retaining monthly TiVo OTA subscribers who would otherwise move on to other solutions) would outweigh the costs (developing and supporting the software patch). I think it's more likely that, if TiVo is still in the retail business a few years from now, they'd just roll out a new model DVR with built-in support for ATSC 3.0 and entice Bolt and Roamio OTA users to upgrade.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah ATSC 3.0 is a bit of a chicken/egg situation. No CE manufacturer wants to make a device that supports it because no one is broadcasting it yet, and no broadcaster wants to broadcast using it because there are no boxes/TVs that support it yet. I think we'll probably see one of the major broadcasters partner with a CE company, like maybe Samsung, to start broadcasting right around the release of a TV/box that supports ATSC 3.0. If it actually catches on then we'll see smaller companies like TiVo jump on board.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

I know that ATSC 3.0 and the spectrum repack (which will follow the current ongoing FCC spectrum auction) are two different things but industry observers tend to think both will unfold together; if broadcasters are having to change their broadcast frequencies (and update their antenna hardware) due to the repack, they may as well include ATSC 3.0 adoption as part of their overall plans too (if they think they will, in fact, adopt it).

It wouldn't surprise me to see at least a handful of stations around the US broadcasting in ATSC 3.0 by fall 2018 but I'd bet we're looking at 2020 before we see it become even fairly common, with actual UHD HDR content offered by the major networks to their local affiliates to broadcast.


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> I still think 16 years is a pretty good run for a piece of consumer electronics. I can't think of one other device out there that's 16 years old and still works. Maybe basic things like TVs and DVD players, but nothing that requires a daily connection and service.


Lots of old computers are still in service, but the "connected world" is pretty young and maybe companies should just stop throwing the word "lifetime" around.

Devices like Squeezebox or an IPod don't even require a subscription but they're getting close to that 16 year point. Someone out there is probably still using an ancient programmable remote control and maybe even download new IR codes from the internet?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

jonw747 said:


> Devices like Squeezebox or an IPod don't even require a subscription but they're getting close to that 16 year point. Someone out there is probably still using an ancient programmable remote control and maybe even download new IR codes from the internet?


Yet if you look at something like an iPad 1, which was released in 2010, it's been obsoleted by Apple by making it so they can't upgrade to latest OS while simultaneously requiring developers to upgrade apps to be compatible with the latest OS. So while you may be able to still use an iPad 1 the vast majority of apps in the app store are incompatible with it.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

I don't know of any computer, pad, or phone that was sold with "lifetime" service.

Also, those old computers, pads and phones still work as well as they ever did. Not being able to use the latest version of s/w is not the same as only being able to use the device in a very limited capacity.

When M$ or Apple drops support for an O/S, they don't cripple all existing installations. They also give way more notice than a month & a half.


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## TiVoJedi (Mar 1, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> I don't know of any computer, pad, or phone that was sold with "lifetime" service.
> 
> Also, those old computers, pads and phones still work as well as they ever did. Not being able to use the latest version of s/w is not the same as only being able to use the device in a very limited capacity.
> 
> When M$ or Apple drops support for an O/S, they don't cripple all existing installations. They also give way more notice than a month & a half.


Time Warner stopped allowing their channel content to flow in old versions of their app effectively making my original iPad no longer a TV in the kitchen. You can't load newer versions of the TWC app on ios 5.1.1 (requires iOS 8.X I believe, which the original iPad is not capable of being updated to). Intentional obsolescence! There's nothing special their app needs in a newer iOS version to stream TV channels.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

TiVoJedi said:


> Time Warner stopped allowing their channel content to flow in old versions of their app effectively making my original iPad no longer a TV in the kitchen. You can't load newer versions of the TWC app on ios 5.1.1 (requires iOS 8.X I believe, which the original iPad is not capable of being updated to). Intentional obsolescence! There's nothing special their app needs in a newer iOS version to stream TV channels.


What the heck has that got to do with the matter at hand? Just because your phone can't run a specific app doesn't make it useless.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> I don't know of any computer, pad, or phone that was sold with "lifetime" service.
> 
> Also, those old computers, pads and phones still work as well as they ever did. Not being able to use the latest version of s/w is not the same as only being able to use the device in a very limited capacity.
> 
> When M$ or Apple drops support for an O/S, they don't cripple all existing installations. They also give way more notice than a month & a half.


And this is why TiVo is offering you $75. The absolute most you paid for lifetime on that box was $250. So they're giving you 1/3 of what you paid for "lifetime" service after having used it for 16 years. That seems more then fair to me.

I honestly can't believe anyone is even complaining about this. We're talking about a product that is 16 years old. Look around your house and point out anything else electronic that you're still using that's 16+ years old. If you even have anything is it worth more then $75?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> And this is why TiVo is offering you $75. The absolute most you paid for lifetime on that box was $250. So they're giving you 1/3 of what you paid for "lifetime" service after having used it for 16 years. That seems more then fair to me.
> 
> I honestly can't believe anyone is even complaining about this. We're talking about a product that is 16 years old. Look around your house and point out anything else electronic that you're still using that's 16+ years old. If you even have anything is it worth more then $75?


I don't have and never had an S1. My problem is the precedent. TiVo gets to unilaterally determine what "lifetime service" means and what is sufficient compensation for terminating the agreement.

As I posted earlier:

First they came for the S1s....


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

They "came for the S1" 16 YEARS after they were released. TiVo is likely to go out of business before that precedent is applied to any modern units.


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## bkc56 (Apr 29, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> I honestly can't believe anyone is even complaining about this. We're talking about a product that is 16 years old. Look around your house and point out anything else electronic that you're still using that's 16+ years old.


I won't weigh in on the precedent aspect, but I don't think anyone who got the (1) bolt on sale (2) lifetime transfer (3) $75 deal is complaining. I'm not (even though I lost two more S1's with lifetime that hadn't called in).

I posted earlier/elsewhere on the topic of old electronics and we have a number of things older than 16 years (up to 30 years old) that are still working fine. Although granted, none of them have a "lifetime" anything, and none of them are worth much at this point.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> They "came for the S1" 16 YEARS after they were released. TiVo is likely to go out of business before that precedent is applied to any modern units.


Really? What's to prevent them from deciding that they can save on resources by dropping support for any unit whose support costs exceed the income generated? Say one purchased with PLS 10 or more years ago? How about 5 years?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> Really? What's to prevent them from deciding that they can save on resources by dropping support for any unit whose support costs exceed the income generated? Say one purchased with PLS 10 or more years ago? How about 5 years?


Do you honestly think that discontinuing a product that was 16 years old and accounted for less then 0.5% of total active TiVos sets the precedent for them to discontinue TiVos that are only 5-10 years old? Actually the S3 units are about 10 years old. I'd be fine with them discontinuing those. Especially if they offered 1/3 of the lifetime cost in return. (That would be about $130)


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Do you honestly think that discontinuing a product that was 16 years old and accounted for less then 0.5% of total active TiVos sets the precedent for them to discontinue TiVos that are only 5-10 years old? Actually the S3 units are about 10 years old. I'd be fine with them discontinuing those. Especially if they offered 1/3 of the lifetime cost in return. (That would be about $130)


The precedent that is being set is that TiVo can unilaterally re-define what "lifetime" means. That they can decide what constitutes just compensation.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> The precedent that is being set is that TiVo can unilaterally re-define what "lifetime" means. That they can decide what constitutes just compensation.


Lifetime service means the device is eligible to receive guide data from the TiVo servers. However, if the device is no longer capable of receiving guide data, because TiVo's servers no longer support such an old device, then I think that qualifies as the end of that device's life, at least as far as the lifetime service is concerned.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Lifetime service means the device is eligible to receive guide data from the TiVo servers. However, if the device is no longer capable of receiving guide data, because TiVo's servers no longer support such an old device, then I think that qualifies as the end of that device's life, at least as far as the lifetime service is concerned.


That the most interesting post I have seen on this subject.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Lifetime service means the device is eligible to receive guide data from the TiVo servers. However, if the device is no longer capable of receiving guide data, because TiVo's servers no longer support such an old device, then I think that qualifies as the end of that device's life, at least as far as the lifetime service is concerned.


That is a complete misrepresentation of the situation. No deployed TiVo was capable of using the Rovi data. It has nothing to do with the "TiVo's servers no longer support such an old device."



Ira Bahr said:


> There is a two-step process. Just this week, we updated the software on the S2-S6 boxes for the new data feeds. Starting next week we will be transitioning these boxes to the new data. During that download which will occur in the early AM hours and take two to three hours, the box will not be fully functional. After that, the DVR will function normally. We've done a ton of testing but we're counting on you guys to post any anomalies you might observe. Right now, we think the most obvious defect will be generic poster art on certain assets.





David Bott said:


> Question 4:
> 
> What is unique about the Rovi meta data that the Series 2 and 3 units can handle it, but Series 1 can't? I'm curious about what's happening (and why) from an engineering perspective that makes retiring Series 1's necessary.





Ira Bahr said:


> This was not strictly an engineering decision but rather a resource allocation decision. As Series 1 active boxes made up less than .5% of our active boxes in the field, it was cost prohibitive on a per box basis to try to engineer a solution. We also don't think we could have gotten it done in time.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> That is a complete misrepresentation of the situation. No deployed TiVo was capable of using the Rovi data. It has nothing to do with the "TiVo's servers no longer support such an old device."


Sure it does. TiVo would have had to do additional engineering work to allow the S1 units to call in and receive the guide data. They chose not to do that engineering work. Therefore, TiVo's servers no longer support S1 units.

I don't think there's anything in the Lifetime Service agreement that requires TiVo to modify their servers to allow them to communicate with 15 year-old equipment. If they make the determination that it's time to stop supporting those devices, then that's the end of the device's "life."


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Sure it does. TiVo would have had to do additional engineering work to allow the S1 units to call in and receive the guide data. They chose not to do that engineering work. Therefore, TiVo's servers no longer support S1 units.
> 
> I don't think there's anything in the Lifetime Service agreement that requires TiVo to modify their servers to allow them to communicate with 15 year-old equipment. If they make the determination that it's time to stop supporting those devices, then that's the end of the device's "life."


Just as I said. They get decide what "lifetime" means.

Why do you keep insisting that TiVo would have needed "to modify their servers to allow the to communicate with 15 year-old equipment"? Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> Just as I said. They get decide what "lifetime" means.
> 
> Why do you keep insisting that TiVo would have needed "to modify their servers to allow the to communicate with 15 year-old equipment"? Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand?


I don't think I'm the one being obtuse here. As you pointed out above:



Ira Bahr said:


> This was not strictly an engineering decision but rather a resource allocation decision. As Series 1 active boxes made up less than .5% of our active boxes in the field, *it was cost prohibitive on a per box basis to try to engineer a solution*. We also don't think we could have gotten it done in time.


TiVo made the decision that it wasn't worth their time or effort to make the necessary modifications to allow S1 TiVos to call in and get the new guide data. That effectively became the end of life for the S1.

Of course they get to decide what "lifetime" means. They're the ones that have to provide the service. If they decide that its no longer economically viable to provide that service, then that's the end of the "lifetime" for that service. The fact that the individual box is still operational is immaterial. Nobody ever promised that TiVo would continue supplying service to the box for as long as someone could keep the box operational. The service consists of two components: 1) the guide data on TiVo's servers, and 2) the ability of the TiVo device to call in and retrieve that data. Since #2 is no longer possible for S1 units, then the service lifetime has ended for those units.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

So "lifetime" means "as long as it makes economic sense."


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

I still cant believe people are still complaining about the S1's also. 
In all my years dealing with corporations, My experience and observations on Tivo is that they go way beyond whats expected to satisfy their customers, just as good or maybe better than Amazon.

Im not a big fan of their 1st level tech support, but you go higher beyond that and they are exceptional.


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## bkc56 (Apr 29, 2001)

foghorn2 said:


> I still cant believe people are still complaining about the S1's also.


I don't think anyone is "still complaining". They are debating what or who gets to declare that a Tivo's "lifetime" has ended. It's starting to get a bit heated, but I've enjoyed reading the different perspectives on it.

Given that it HAS ended, I don't see anyone complaining about the upgrade path that Tivo provided (except perhaps for those who didn't qualify). It is fair, even perhaps generous (and I appreciate it).


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

lpwcomp said:


> So "lifetime" means "as long as it makes economic sense."


Correct.

When Tivo offered lifetime and monthly, most people, if not everyone, decided what to buy using only 2 criteria; (1) Did they have the available funds to buy lifetime (2) How many months was the break even point.

If the answer to (1) was yes and they planned on keeping the Tivo past the break even point they got lifetime.

Only the truly naive, or those who like to argue, thought lifetime meant until they died or the device croaked. These same people probably think Tesla's Autopilot mean you can watch a movie on your tablet and not watch the road.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

idksmy said:


> Correct.
> 
> Only the truly naive, or those who like to argue, thought lifetime meant until they died or the device croaked. These same people probably think Tesla's Autopilot mean you can watch a movie on your tablet and not watch the road.


Ah but you can with a Tesla, sometimes until your life ends.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

bkc56 said:


> I don't think anyone is "still complaining". They are debating what or who gets to declare that a Tivo's "lifetime" has ended. It's starting to get a bit heated, but I've enjoyed reading the different perspectives on it.
> .


Pretty much the same comments now that were put forth for the TiVo UK users that had lifetime service when they finally stopped service there in June 2011 (check out the TiVo UK forum) and they had fewer years of service with no compensation offers.

Scott


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

lessd said:


> Ah but you can with a Tesla, sometimes until your life ends.


Touche'! :up:


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> Why do you keep insisting that TiVo would have needed "to modify their servers to allow the to communicate with 15 year-old equipment"? Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand?


Why do YOU keep insisting that TiVo killed the S1 for no good reason?

They specifically stated they had to do additional engineering work to make the S1 Rovi-capable. If whatever they did to the more current units would have worked on an S1, they wouldn't have said "it was cost prohibitive on a per box basis to try to engineer a solution".

So it required ADDITIONAL work to make an S1 tick. They decided not to do it. Nowhere in any lifetime agreement does it state they'll go to any length to re-engineer the box to keep it alive. In fact, theoretically they could have quit pushing updates and let it die before now. Same with S2/S3. But unlike most consumer electronic manuf, they are making a concerted (and much appreciated) effort to keep multiple past generations of equipment alive.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

It all comes down to what TiVo's obligations are under a "lifetime service" contract.

TiVo is not dropping support on the S1' because it's harder than doing it on the S2s and S3, there doing it because S1s represent such a small percentage of the units in use that it isn't worth even the same effort required for S2s and S3s, not to mention the fact that even with 0 resources allocated to the S1, there's no evidence that they are close to deploying code for the S2 or S3. What happens if the code isn't ready on the drop dead date for Gracenote data?



> Why do YOU keep insisting that TiVo killed the S1 for no good reason?


Could you provide a link to even one post where I even _*mentioned*_ the reason?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> It all comes down to what TiVo's obligations are under a "lifetime service" contract.
> 
> TiVo is not dropping support on the S1' because it's harder than doing it on the S2s and S3, there doing it because S1s represent such a small percentage of the units in use that it isn't worth even the same effort required for S2s and S3s, not to mention the fact that even with 0 resources allocated to the S1, there's no evidence that they are close to deploying code for the S2 or S3. What happens if the code isn't ready on the drop dead date for Gracenote data?


Is it your position that as long as there is a single S1 with lifetime service out there trying to connect to TiVo's servers, that TiVo is obligated to maintain its servers in such a way as to allow that S1 unit to call in?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Is it your position that as long as there is a single S1 with lifetime service out there trying to connect to TiVo's servers, that TiVo is obligated to maintain its servers in such a way as to allow that S1 unit to call in?


Is it your position that TiVo has the right to drop support for any model if they deem it not worth the resources needed to maintain it?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> Is it your position that TiVo has the right to drop support for any model if they deem it not worth the resources needed to maintain it?


At least after some number of years, must be more than 1 year and less then 100 years, you find the correct answer.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

lpwcomp said:


> Is it your position that TiVo has the right to drop support for any model if they deem it not worth the resources needed to maintain it?


Windows 3.0, 3.1,95, 98, me,xp
IBM OS/2
1970 Boss Mustang
70's Technics turntable
....................................


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

foghorn2 said:


> Windows 3.0, 3.1,95, 98, me,xp
> IBM OS/2
> 1970 Boss Mustang
> 70's Technics turntable
> ....................................


Add to what you just said from the MS web sight

End of support: questions and answers. Mainstream support. Microsoft will offer mainstream support for a minimum of 5 years from the date of a product's general availability. Extended support. Microsoft will offer extended support for a minimum of 5 years from the date of a product's general availability


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

lessd said:


> Add to what you just said from the MS web sight
> 
> End of support: questions and answers. Mainstream support. Microsoft will offer mainstream support for a minimum of 5 years from the date of a product's general availability. Extended support. Microsoft will offer extended support for a minimum of 5 years from the date of a product's general availability


Not analogous. End of support for an O/S does not disable it.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> Is it your position that TiVo has the right to drop support for any model if they deem it not worth the resources needed to maintain it?


Why didn't you speak up on this when the UK TiVo S1 owners with lifetime had their service dropped in 2011 (and they did not get any compensation offer)? Seems there has already been a precedent set. Note that one user tried to take them to small claims court but eventually gave up and this was before the terms were change to arbitration.

If I still had an active S1 with lifetime I'd feel thankful for the offer and probably move to an S2 with lifetime if I really had to have an SD DVR (I do still have our 2 original S1's in the basement but the lifetime was transferred to our 2 S3 OLED's in 2007).

Scott


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Maybe because I didn't know about the UK situation at the time.

One other thing about this: Why only 6 weeks notice? They had to know months ago.

There's also no guarantee that they will complete the S2 & S3 mods in time.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> Is it your position that TiVo has the right to drop support for any model if they deem it not worth the resources needed to maintain it?


Absolutely. No question about it. Why should TiVo, a company in business to make money, be forced to support models that will cost them profit?

I'm sure your answer will have something to do with keeping customers happy. And that definitely is something they have to take into consideration. But there comes a point where it doesn't make business sense to keep supporting a legacy model. And clearly they decided this was that time for the S1.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

I understand why they made the decision. I don't have to like it. My point is that they unilaterally breached the lifetime service agreement and offered me NOTHING. No $75, no service transfer, no discount on the Bolt or the service. Not even a set of Tivo coasters.  I might even accept 3 magic beans. I just think there should have been something offered to anyone whose old Tivo dials in, completes the call, and then discovers the situation. At an absolute minimum, they could have at least had the courtesy to send me an email about it, rather than letting me discover it at the very moment I needed my backup Tivo. I kept it for "emergency" use when I could have sold it for *something* earlier this year.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

TiVo had problems with the meaning of the word Lifetime from the time they started the co. TiVo first problem with the word Lifetime. was whos lifetime, that question was settled near the end of the 90s, to be the Lifetime of the unit, not the owners Lifetime. What defines the Lifetime of TiVo unit?, for some people when the hard drive goes and they don't know how to change drives so for them Lifetime is over, most on this TCF can fix, or get fixed most TiVo problems except maybe the mother board itself, and even some on this Forum can, on some models, even fix the motherboard. So we have assumed that Lifetime was when the TiVo unit itself stopped working and was unfixable, but TiVos T&C never said that, all it said was Lifetime was the lifetime of the unit itself, and that could mean when TiVo itself stopped supplying guide data for the unit, yes TiVo could defined how long Lifetime is for any given model, and they are doing just that for inactive Series 1 units. It makes no difference if you think that is right or not, it just is, unless someone wants to go to the legal system and such system gives out a different legal option about a 16 year product, then that the way it is.
For the people that think they got a bad deal on the Series 1s, nothing said on this Forum will change their minds.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Absolutely. No question about it. Why should TiVo, a company in business to make money, be forced to support models that will cost them profit?
> 
> I'm sure your answer will have something to do with keeping customers happy. And that definitely is something they have to take into consideration. But there comes a point where it doesn't make business sense to keep supporting a legacy model. And clearly they decided this was that time for the S1.


On what do you base your assumption? It certainly isn't based on anything I have written, said or even thought. Anytime, anywhere.

I have an assumption of my own, and unlike yours it is based on what you wrote rather than made up out of whole cloth.

My assumption is that if you were CFO of TiVo, you would advise the CEO to send out something like this:

"As of 01/01/2017, the maximum period covered by a "Lifetime" or "All-in" service plan purchased at full price will be 5-years from the time the plan was purchased. A "Lifetime" plan purchased for $99 will cover 1-year of service. This applies both to previously purchased plans and subsequent purchases. To avoid interruption of service, you must arrange to purchase one of the existing plans for your unit. TiVo also reserves the right to refuse to allow such purchase for any unit it deems to be obsolete."


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> On what do you base your assumption? It certainly isn't based on anything I have written, said or even thought. Anytime, anywhere.
> 
> I have an assumption of my own, and unlike yours it is based on what you wrote rather than made up out of whole cloth.
> 
> ...


I have no idea what you're talking about with assumptions. I didn't make any assumptions about your opinion.

As for your unfounded assumption of my opinion, you're way off. That policy you proposed is ridiculous.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about with assumptions. I didn't make any assumptions about your opinion.


Really?



DevdogAZ said:


> Absolutely. No question about it. Why should TiVo, a company in business to make money, be forced to support models that will cost them profit?
> 
> *I'm sure your answer will have something to do with keeping customers happy.* And that definitely is something they have to take into consideration. But there comes a point where it doesn't make business sense to keep supporting a legacy model. And clearly they decided this was that time for the S1.


What the heck do you call the bolded sentence?



> As for your unfounded assumption of my opinion, you're way off. That policy you proposed is ridiculous.


it's the logical extension of


> Why should TiVo, a company in business to make money, be forced to support models that will cost them profit?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> What the heck do you call the bolded sentence?


I was just anticipating the most logical answer to the question I posed, and acknowledging that the answer was valid and something that the company surely considered, but in the end wasn't enough to override the economic realities.



lpwcomp said:


> it's the logical extension of


Not really. If it were purely about profit, they never would have offered lifetime in the first place. But they realized the need to get some cash in the door ASAP and were willing to trade that for future support of customers who were no longer generating revenue. And so they made a business decision to offer lifetime even though it wasn't going to be the most profitable option in the long run.

Similarly, TiVo had to make a business decision in this case about whether it was economically feasible to continue supporting the S1. We don't know all the factors that went into making the decision, but we do know they ultimately decided it didn't make sense to continue providing support to that model.

Let's look at it this way. If TiVo came out and told us it was going to cost them $10 million and take their engineers six months to craft a solution to allow the S1 to continue receiving guide updates, we'd say it was a no brainer that they made the right decision to stop supporting the S1. And if we found out they could make the necessary changes in 5 minutes at a cost of $10, then we'd say the right decision would be to continue supporting the S1.

The reality was somewhere in between those two extremes, and it will come down to each of our individual opinions as to where we feel the tipping point is.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I was just anticipating the most logical answer to the question I posed, and acknowledging that the answer was valid and something that the company surely considered, but in the end wasn't enough to override the economic realities.


And that differs from an assumption exactly how? It's pure hubris to assume that your opinion of what "the most logical answer" is, is in fact the most logical answer and was definitely not based on anything I had posted earlier. It was thus a "strawman" argument.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> And that differs from an assumption exactly how? It's pure hubris to assume that your opinion of what "the most logical answer" is, is in fact the most logical answer and was definitely not based on anything I had posted earlier. It was thus a "strawman" argument.


Again, I wasn't making any assumptions about you personally, nor did my post have anything to do with anything you had previously posted. My post was simply anticipating that response, whether from you or from anyone else, and preemptively acknowledging it and discussing it.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Again, I wasn't making any assumptions about you personally, nor did my post have anything to do with anything you had previously posted. My post was simply anticipating that response, whether from you or from anyone else, and preemptively acknowledging it and discussing it.


You're correct, you weren't assuming since an assumption allows for the possibility that you could be wrong. You were _*sure*_.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> You're correct, you weren't assuming since an assumption allows for the possibility that you could be wrong. You were _*sure*_.


You are being ridiculous. My post had nothing to do with you. It was simply asking a rhetorical question and then anticipating and discussing a likely answer.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> You're correct, you weren't assuming since an *assumption *allows for the possibility that you could be wrong. You were _sure_.


That word. I do not think it means what you seem to think it means.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> You are being ridiculous. My post had nothing to do with you. It was simply asking a rhetorical question and then anticipating and discussing a likely answer.


You're the one who is being ridiculous. You quoted me. You wrote


> I'm sure *your* answer...


 If you think that is the proper way to pose a rhetorical question, then you need a refresher course in English.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Game ends in a tie? Both can declare a moral victory and move on.


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## mahermusic (Mar 12, 2003)

It's all good. lpwcomp is just being touchy because he lost the argument. I agree, let's move on.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

mahermusic said:


> It's all good. lpwcomp is just being touchy because he lost the argument. I agree, let's move on.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I agree to be done. No point in continuing this any further.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

When tivo released the series 1 people were using VCRs. The relatively few people using digital media players weren't using an iPod, Apple released the first iPod almost 2 1/2 years later. The state of the art cell phone was a Nokia (candy bar style). Touch screens weren't available.

The S1 units only included a dial up modem. I doubt many people today even have a compatible phone line. Tivo was never under any obligation to accommodate internal network boards (turbonet) or use of external modems. S1 units support analog. Analog OTA is dead and an increasing number of cable companies have dropped analog.

Do we think tivo legal signed off on this? Do we think tivo could just say the product lifetime of S1 has ended and not offer any compensation? According to the wayback machine tivo said your lifetime service wouldn't be lost if your hard drive capacity was upgraded by tivo or an authorized facility. That suggests the possibility of a different answer if you did it yourself. That suggests the only people 100% in the clear are customers still using dial up, with their original hard drives.

I don't think tivo owed anything to anyone. JMO but the $75 sounds reasonable. It's probably enough to purchase a used S2 unit. Letting customers transfer LS to a new unit is a very nice gesture. People more then "got their monies worth", paying maybe $12 per year for service. They now get lifetime service worth around $550 for free.

Garmin offers lifetime maps. Go a year without connecting and you run the risk of losing your lifetime map upgrades. Tivo reserved the right to cancel your MSD if your qualifying lifetime unit didn't make a connection (not sure if was every 6 months or every year).

$75 is being given as compensation to customers who are still using their S1. Customers who decided the S1 technology was past its lifetime, and stopped using it, aren't entitled to compensation. They haven't suffered any loss.

Assume two different customers disconnected their S1 units a few years go. One customer dropped his obsolete unit off during a local e-waste drive. The other customer, a "hoarder", shoved the unit in the corner of his basement. JMO but I don't see any reason why tivo should be rewarding a hoarder. Giving $75 as compensation to current S1 customers makes more sense then tivo spending the same money and giving $20 (or whatever number results in the same outlay) to anyone who ever owned a S1. Expanding the deal to just include hoarders who have a unit which might be able to connect makes no sense to me.

lpwcomp Drawing a line isn't exact. Companies generally support a product for 5 years after it's discontinued. S1 units (as sold by tivo) require dialup, analog and SD I'd say the product is past the end of its product lifetime.

I'm surprised tivo is bothering with the S2 units. 

It sure sounds like a lot of the issues with Rovi data is being addressed. 

It's a shame tivo can't release some kind of back door code removing the nag screens so customers can easily continue using their units in manual mode.


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## bkc56 (Apr 29, 2001)

Wil said:


> Game ends in a tie? Both can declare a moral victory and move on.


I agree. The debate started good with solid points on both sides. It began to get heated, a bit personal, and now seems to be about the proper definition of words like "assumption". Other than perhaps an impartial summary, I think we're pretty much done.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Wil said:


> Game ends in a tie? Both can declare a moral victory and move on.


Every sport has overtime or, gulp, a shootout.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Every sport has overtime or, gulp, a shootout.


And some can still end in a tie.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> And some can still end in a tie.


Doubly disappointing.


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

Fact is TiVo made an offer that was fair to many, and let it be known that anyone who wasn't happy should contact them to see if something better could be worked out.

As someone who's invested in "lifetime" on my Roamio, that's a precedent I can live with.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

jonw747 said:


> Fact is TiVo made an offer that was fair to many, and let it be known that anyone who wasn't happy should contact them to see if something better could be worked out.
> 
> As someone who's invested in "lifetime" on my Roamio, that's a precedent I can live with.


Tivo didn't "let it be known" until after the original announcement. Plus many people (myself included) never got the e-mail. The CSRs are all trained to say, "$75, take it or leave it." It was only through this forum, which is not an official Tivo forum, did people realize that Tivo was secretly negotiating lifetime service transfers for certain cases.

I think if they had offered lifetime service transfers to loyal customers in the beginning then a lot of this would have been avoided. Except we'd have a different, but just as lengthy, conversation on what "loyal" meant.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

lew said:


> I'm surprised tivo is bothering with the S2 units.


I'm surprised they're still bothering with the S3 and HD units. Actually, the S2, S3, and HD units don't have the software update yet, do they? I thought the off switch for Gracenote was going to be thrown on the 15th. Tivo is cutting it a little close. Maybe those units will run out of guide data temporarily. Maybe it'll be longer than that.

Hopefully Tivo would handle future EOL announcements a little bit better than the S1's.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> I'm surprised they're still bothering with the S3 and HD units. Actually, the S2, S3, and HD units don't have the software update yet, do they? I thought the off switch for Gracenote was going to be thrown on the 15th. Tivo is cutting it a little close. Maybe those units will run out of guide data temporarily. Maybe it'll be longer than that.
> 
> Hopefully Tivo would handle future EOL announcements a little bit better than the S1's.


I thought i read the drop dead date for Gracenote guide data was September 29th?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> I thought i read the drop dead date for Gracenote guide data was September 29th?


Which means the machines start losing data about 12 days earlier.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> I thought i read the drop dead date for Gracenote guide data was September 29th?


The last day TiVo can push Gracenote data is Sept. 15, and with 14 days of data, the S1 units that can't get Rovi data will run out of guide data around Sept. 29.


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

BobCamp1 said:


> Tivo didn't "let it be known" until after the original announcement. Plus many people (myself included) never got the e-mail. The CSRs are all trained to say, "$75, take it or leave it." It was only through this forum, which is not an official Tivo forum, did people realize that Tivo was secretly negotiating lifetime service transfers for certain cases.
> 
> I think if they had offered lifetime service transfers to loyal customers in the beginning then a lot of this would have been avoided. Except we'd have a different, but just as lengthy, conversation on what "loyal" meant.


I understand all that, but it's kind of the nature of the beast. A company can never make everybody happy, but if they're responsive to serious complaints ... that works for me. I know where to complain.


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## Colbyt (Jul 6, 2006)

Okay, I must be stupid or something. Where did these questions get answered?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Colbyt said:


> Okay, I must be stupid or something. Where did these questions get answered?


Posts 3-42 of this thread.


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## sbedelman (Nov 24, 2009)

idksmy said:


> Only the truly naive, or those who like to argue, thought lifetime meant until they died or the device croaked.


I'm not naive and I don't like to argue but I read the Tivo agreement and what you say I'm naive about is exactly what the agreement promised and what it still promises (the only difference is the name).

"An All-In Plan (a) lasts for the lifetime of your TiVo device (not your lifetime)"

I'm confused as to how asking Tivo to live up to what they agreed to makes me naive? Nobody forced them to offer a lifetime plan. But they did and having done so they should either deliver or offer something comparable as a replacement.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

sbedelman said:


> I'm not naive and I don't like to argue but I read the Tivo agreement and what you say I'm naive about is exactly what the agreement promised and what it still promises (the only difference is the name).
> 
> "An All-In Plan (a) lasts for the lifetime of your TiVo device (not your lifetime)"
> 
> I'm confused as to how asking Tivo to live up to what they agreed to makes me naive? Nobody forced them to offer a lifetime plan. But they did and having done so they should either deliver or offer something comparable as a replacement.


Were all those people still using the original drive from when they bought the S1? Only those people truly are using the original TiVo. Anyone that replaced the drive without going through TiVo, that lifetime was technically already used.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> Were all those people still using the original drive from when they bought the S1? Only those people truly are using the original TiVo. Anyone that replaced the drive without going through TiVo, that lifetime was technically already used.


One person on this Forum said they used their S 1 TiVo for 16 years never taking apart the unit, hard for me to believe that any drive made in year 2000 or 2001 would last that long running 24/7, but at odds are 270,000 to 1 on the Power Ball, and people do win the power ball.


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## sbedelman (Nov 24, 2009)

lessd said:


> One person on this Forum said they used their S 1 TiVo for 16 years never taking apart the unit, hard for me to believe that any drive made in year 2000 or 2001 would last that long running 24/7, but at odds are 270,000 to 1 on the Power Ball, and people do win the power ball.


I own two Sony's that have never had the case opened. They haven't been running 24/7. I turn them on when I want to use them. There is nothing in my agreement with Tivo requires that I keep them running 24/7 and I see no reason to waste the electricity required to do so.

If Tivo has decided its a good business decision (i.e. it saves them money) to turn off the lifetime service they contractually agreed to provide me then the benefit they derive shouldn't come at my expense (i.e. my having to buy a new Tivo and replacement subscription). That is a cost they should gladly bear as a consequence of the savings they are going to reap.

As practical matter look at it this way. They promised everyone who bought a lifetime subscription they would provide the service for the lifetime of the device. Almost certainly the vast majority of those don't care that the service is being shut down for one reason or another. Tivo is getting out of their obligation to those subscribers absolutely free. So Tivo reaped the benefit, the money these subscribers paid them, but don't have to deliver the service as agreed, for the lifetime of the device.

That's a pretty good deal. You would think that given this they would be more than willing to transition the rest of us at no charge. Continuing to provide the service they promised, or a reasonable alternative, is not only something they are obligated to do, its good business. The cost has to be trivial and the upside of demonstrating that they honor their obligations, huge.


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## mahermusic (Mar 12, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> Were all those people still using the original drive from when they bought the S1? Only those people truly are using the original TiVo. Anyone that replaced the drive without going through TiVo, that lifetime was technically already used.


We're still using the original drive... We'll be unplugging our Series 1 on Sept. 30th after almost 15 years of continuous use.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

sbedelman said:


> Tivo is getting out of their obligation to those subscribers absolutely free.


"Free?" I thought they were offering $75.


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

sbedelman said:


> I own two Sony's that have never had the case opened. They haven't been running 24/7. I turn them on when I want to use them. There is nothing in my agreement with Tivo requires that I keep them running 24/7 and I see no reason to waste the electricity required to do so.
> 
> If Tivo has decided its a good business decision (i.e. it saves them money) to turn off the lifetime service they contractually agreed to provide me then the benefit they derive shouldn't come at my expense (i.e. my having to buy a new Tivo and replacement subscription). That is a cost they should gladly bear as a consequence of the savings they are going to reap.
> 
> ...


Legally their responsibility is to compensate their customers for damages caused by their inability to uphold the terms of their contract.

They decided on their own that $75 was fair compensation to those actively still using their device (a reasonable way to determine units that have not reached their EOL).

By all means call them up and ask for whatever you think is fair, and let us know how it goes.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

jonw747 said:


> By all means call them up and ask for whatever you think is fair, and let us know how it goes.


Several people have done this already and gotten things like free lifetime with the purchase of a Bolt. So TiVo is willing to work with those effected on alternate solutions. However I don't think they'd give you any more cash then the $75 offered. Anything is likely going to be a discount on the hardware/service of a new unit so they can retain you as a customer.


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## sbedelman (Nov 24, 2009)

jonw747 said:


> Legally their responsibility is to compensate their customers for damages caused by their inability to uphold the terms of their contract.
> 
> They decided on their own that $75 was fair compensation to those actively still using their device (a reasonable way to determine units that have not reached their EOL).
> 
> By all means call them up and ask for whatever you think is fair, and let us know how it goes.


I did and am waiting to hear back from them. Once I do I'll post what they say.


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## sbedelman (Nov 24, 2009)

TonyD79 said:


> "Free?" I thought they were offering $75.


You are correct.

Tivo isn't getting out free they are getting out for something less than $75/customer because not every customer will find out about the offer so their average cost per customers will be somewhere between about $75 and zero depending on the customer response.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

sbedelman said:


> You are correct.
> 
> Tivo isn't getting out free they are getting out for something less than $75/customer because not every customer will find out about the offer so their average cost per customers will be somewhere between about $75 and zero depending on the customer response.


Not entirely true, since there are several reports of people getting discounts off new hardware plus have had their lifetime service transferred, so while that might not be actual cash out of TiVo's pocket, there's still a cost to them giving discounts on the Bolts and transferring the lifetime service.


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## sbedelman (Nov 24, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Not entirely true, since there are several reports of people getting discounts off new hardware plus have had their lifetime service transferred, so while that might not be actual cash out of TiVo's pocket, there's still a cost to them giving discounts on the Bolts and transferring the lifetime service.


I think you may have missed the train of the conversation.

I wrote "Almost certainly the vast majority of those don't care that the service is being shut down for one reason or another. Tivo is getting out of their obligation to those subscribers absolutely free."

The poster responded " 'Free?" I thought they were offering $75."

I then responded that this was true but since not everyone who was eligible for the offer would find out about it or take advantage the actual cost to compensate this group would be somewhere between zero and $75/user.

All this was referring to lifetime subscribers that didn't care that the service was being shut down. Subscribers that cared weren't being referring to in that part of my post. Since presumably a subscriber would be getting a new Tivo only if he knew about what was going on and cared your statement is not correct.


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## bkc56 (Apr 29, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> Several people have done this already and gotten things like free lifetime with the purchase of a Bolt.


This may be a small point, but I'd like to clarify that no one is getting free lifetime service on new hardware. What Tivo has done for people who push through the front-line support to a supervisor is:
1. Discount the purchase price of a new Bolt
2. Transfer of existing lifetime service from a Series 1 to the Bolt.
3. The $75 gift card.
This applies to qualifying Series 1 units that "phoned home" during the first six months or so of this year. Two (of my four) Series 1 lifetime units qualified and I did the above for both of them.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bkc56 said:


> This may be a small point, but I'd like to clarify that no one is getting free lifetime service on new hardware. What Tivo has done for people who push through the front-line support to a supervisor is:
> 1. Discount the purchase price of a new Bolt
> 2. Transfer of existing lifetime service from a Series 1 to the Bolt.
> 3. The $75 gift card.
> This applies to qualifying Series 1 units that "phoned home" during the first six months or so of this year. Two (of my four) Series 1 lifetime units qualified and I did the above for both of them.


Sounds like free lifetime to me if you get lifetime on the new unit and the $75.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep, that's the definition of free lifetime on new hardware, doesn't matter that it was a transfer. Damn good deal for the S1 owners along with all the other spiffs.


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## bkc56 (Apr 29, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> Sounds like free lifetime to me if you get lifetime on the new unit and the $75.


OK, I guess it's a matter of semantics. Is a transfer of lifetime service to a new unit considered a NEW free one, or an EXISTING paid-for one. Given that it was Tivo who "broke" my Series 1, so my lifetime service had not expired, I treat it as a transfer.

But one could argue it either way and be right.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Did they actually deactivate the lifetime on your S1?


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Ira Bahr said:


> We understand that there is a hole that was left when TiVo Desktop and Desktop Plus were EOL'd. There were some external reasons why we had to EOL that product. We are presently trying to get a replacement on the technology roadmap.


Does anyone have more info on this? I know they stopped providing regular TiVo Desktop, but thought they were just selling a more advanced version in it's place.

As someone else on here mentioned, I watch probably at least half my shows on my PC. I HAVE to have that, and I have to be able to copy them to an external drive or whatnot so I can take them with me, and be able to use multiple players, as often one will have problems with a particular show, while another won't. (I switch between primarily VLC and the "Movies & TV" Windows 10 program mostly right now.)

If that weren't available, I don't know that Tivo would really be viable for me...it would still have longer term storage than Hulu, but otherwise I can already watch Hulu in my home...although I guess really Hulu + CBS All Access ends up about the same cost (or more) than Tivo service, but still, with Tivo I'm left wondering when my hard drive is going to die...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Puppy76 said:


> Does anyone have more info on this? I know they stopped providing regular TiVo Desktop, but thought they were just selling a more advanced version in it's place.
> 
> As someone else on here mentioned, I watch probably at least half my shows on my PC. I HAVE to have that, and I have to be able to copy them to an external drive or whatnot so I can take them with me, and be able to use multiple players, as often one will have problems with a particular show, while another won't. (I switch between primarily VLC and the "Movies & TV" Windows 10 program mostly right now.)
> 
> If that weren't available, I don't know that Tivo would really be viable for me...it would still have longer term storage than Hulu, but otherwise I can already watch Hulu in my home...although I guess really Hulu + CBS All Access ends up about the same cost (or more) than Tivo service, but still, with Tivo I'm left wondering when my hard drive is going to die...


You could stream them to the PC using a Stream, Roamio Pro, or Bolt.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

You can still download TiVo Desktop if you have the right link, but it's been removed from their site. They don't sell it, or even mention it anywhere. From what I heard it was developed by a 3rd party and they had some sort of falling out with that company. We (VideoReDo) actually contacted them and offered to take over development of it for them, but we never heard back.


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## bkc56 (Apr 29, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> Did they actually deactivate the lifetime on your S1?


That's what they said would happen although (a) I unplugged them both so they would continue to work until the guide data ran out and (b) I'm still waiting for my-account on tivo.com to be updated with the 2 new bolts and (I assume) the subscription status to change on the two that had the lifetime transferred.

The letters of transfer I received with my bolts were very clear that the subscription would be transferred.



> Just a few more steps to complete the service transfer from your current DVR to your new device:


And when I called to do the transfer they were VERY specific about what serial number I was transferring service from/to. They also confirmed (again) that the source S1's qualified for the transfer (because I have two other lifetime S1's that are not qualified).

So yes, transferred but as yet unconfirmed. The S1's will never call in again (so the loss will never show up on the system information screen) but my-account should eventually confirm it.


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## Seattle (Dec 13, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> Did they actually deactivate the lifetime on your S1?


Yes. One of my series ones now shows Status 1:New and the other one shows as Status 7:Never setup.

They both were removed from my online account as well and the new bolts show as having "TiVo Lifetime Service".

One of the series one TiVos had not been calling in and I was still able to get a lifetime transfer to a new Bolt.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> You can still download TiVo Desktop if you have the right link, but it's been removed from their site. They don't sell it, or even mention it anywhere. From what I heard it was developed by a 3rd party and they had some sort of falling out with that company. We (VideoReDo) actually contacted them and offered to take over development of it for them, but we never heard back.


After the casting couch session:

"Don't call us, we'll call you"


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Dan203 said:


> You can still download TiVo Desktop if you have the right link, but it's been removed from their site.


http://assets.tivo.com/assets/exe/tivotogo/TiVoDesktop2.8.3.exe

http://www.tivo.com/tivo-assets/exe/tivotogo/tivo-desktop-patch-setup.exe


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> You could stream them to the PC using a Stream, Roamio Pro, or Bolt.


Even if that worked flawlessly, it doesn't let me save stuff, doesn't work outside the home, and even if it did work outside the home wouldn't work without an impossibly expensive data plan of some sort.



Dan203 said:


> You can still download TiVo Desktop if you have the right link, but it's been removed from their site. They don't sell it, or even mention it anywhere. From what I heard it was developed by a 3rd party and they had some sort of falling out with that company. We (VideoReDo) actually contacted them and offered to take over development of it for them, but we never heard back.


Thanks for the info! I had no idea it was by a third party. Thankfully on Windows it still works as of Windows 10, and the Bolt seems to be supported fine, but they really need a replacement. I don't need anything super fancy, just something that does what it does, shows the shows and lets me transfer them. Anything more than that is a bonus.

You guys (VideoReDo) seem like you'd be able to do a better job than the company they used the first time!


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Puppy76 said:


> Even if that worked flawlessly, it doesn't let me save stuff, doesn't work outside the home, and even if it did work outside the home wouldn't work without an impossibly expensive data plan of some sort.
> 
> Thanks for the info! I had no idea it was by a third party. Thankfully on Windows it still works as of Windows 10, and the Bolt seems to be supported fine, but they really need a replacement. I don't need anything super fancy, just something that does what it does, shows the shows and lets me transfer them. Anything more than that is a bonus.
> 
> You guys (VideoReDo) seem like you'd be able to do a better job than the company they used the first time!


There are several free third party apps that allow you to do this. kmttg, pyTivo, and archivo for example. It's even possible to download recordings using a browser.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The part that can't easily be replaced is the DirectShow filter that allows you to play .tivo files in WMP or edit them in VideoReDo. I know that kmttg uses a newer open source decoder that's suppose to work better with TS files, but I think it still has problems with some files. The TiVo DS filter was 100% with TS files.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I know that kmttg uses a newer open source decoder that's suppose to work better with TS files, but I think it still has problems with some files. The TiVo DS filter was 100% with TS files.


You mean tivolibre right? As far as I know, fflewddur has fixed all the issues that were brought to his attention and done a lot of testing to insure the output is the same.

Scott


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

In any case the problem for us is legal. The DMCA prevents us from using something like tivodcode/tivolibre in a commercial product. The only reason we're allowed to decode .tivo files is because TiVo included the decoder with their official software.


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## bobwojo (Jan 9, 2011)

satpro said:


> *Currently the series 1 boxes have to dial in 4 times a year to correct the time even if it does not drift. Once on the new daylight savings date and then again on the old daylight saving date that is coded, then again at the end of DST on the new date and a forth time on the old DST end.*
> 
> I still don't see a definitive answer to this, I am not sure they are even aware of the reality of how the current series 1 time set requirements work.
> 
> Will the time set work with existing access numbers or are certain dialup numbers going to be turned off eventually. It would be nice if they could just have one 1-800 number that the boxes could dial in to change their time if it drifts and for the 4 times a year when daylight saving time comes into play.


So far my Series one boxes dial in and set the time using the connection test option. These are all on a Ethernet connection since the modems were destroyed by lightning.


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