# Macrovision BS?



## PissedMonkey

Yesterday, for the first time, I got some crappy notification about forced deletions of shows on my TiVo. Search google for TiVo Macrovision for an idea of what I'm talking about.

Am I the only one that is completely outraged by this? I've been a faithful TiVo supporter and owner (both of their product and stock) for years, but this acquiescence seriously causes me to loose faith and respect for TiVo.

What's to stop a channel from saying that TiVo is not permitted to record ANY of their shows? Bah.


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## PissedMonkey

and a followup to myself...

Here's an article from wired...



> WIRED: TiVo has always been about empowering the viewer. Why change now?
> ZINN: Macrovision changed its policy. So the question was, Do we want to have a Macrovision license with certain restrictions, or none at all? We decided that as long as the restrictions were limited to pay-per-view and video-on-demand, consumers would still have the choice. If they don't like a narrower window in which to view programming, they won't purchase it. That'll send a message to the content owners.
> You're not legally required to have copy protection. Why not tell Macrovision to stuff it?
> That was an option. But if there was no Macrovision license, we would run into a lot of copyright problems with things like remote access and "TiVo to Go" functionality. To innovate and give people more flexibility with broadcast content, we decided it was acceptable to allow content owners to apply protections to higher-value content.
> 
> What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.
> That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.
> 
> With the cable companies in bed with the studios, TiVo could be the last line of defense for the DVR as we know it.
> Sometimes I feel that way. We're aware of the danger, and the slippery slope. The danger is that DRM can tilt the balance of copyright so that ultimately there's no concept of fair use, because the content owners dictate what the rules are. But I think content owners are beginning to recognize that if you make things too restrictive, then consumers will find nonlegal ways to achieve what they want.


The "higher-value content" which had restrictions on my TiVo was a 2 year old King of the Hill for Pete's sake! I could maybe in some small way understand it if it were for some PPV boxing fight or something, but for crap like that? Bah! Bah I say!


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## stevel

This hasn't actually been implemented yet - what makes you think TiVo forced a deletion of the program? What does your Recording History say?


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## jmoak

_for those who like to see for themselves, since the op can't post a link yet:_

Has TiVo Forsaken Us?

Can you post a screen shot of that crappy notification? It would help _a lot_ in trying to get a response.

"Questions About Macrovision Copy Protection" from Tivo's web site.


I search google for "TiVo Macrovision" and came up with quite a few hits, but most were about trying to dub dvd's to a tivo. There was very little about the "New" macrovision stuff and the ones I found would lead one to believe that this is primarily for ppv's and the like, not regular broadcast shows.

Where'd you go Monkey?? I could _really_ use a screenshot of that notice you got.

Can you come up with one for me to see??


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## PissedMonkey

Can't do a screenshot right now, but there are two TiVo suggested items that have been recorded, and instead of having a little round tivo smiling at me like usual, there's a little red flag next to it. When you select the show, there's a message that says, "Could be deleted any time between now and Sat 9/17 1:00 am".

When I go to "Keep Until", there is no "Keep until I delete" option. Instead there is a message that says, "Could be deleted any time between now and Sat 9/17 1:00 am. Due to policy set by the copyright holder, "Keep until I delete" is not permitted."

Bah. Bah I say!


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## jmoak

Where are you?
What shows have the little red flags and what channels were they recorded on and when were they recorded?
_and to parrot stevel:_
What does your Recording History say about the deleted "King of the Hill"?

As far as the screenshot, just take a digital picture of the tv screen. It does not have to be great quality, just good enough to read.


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## PissedMonkey

Took some screenshots. Need to one more post to be able to post URLs, apparently...


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## PissedMonkey

or is it 5 posts and then URLs...


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## PissedMonkey

Here's the now playing list. (yes yes, I know, Oprah and Dharma, what can I say, it's a shared TiVo.)

Here's the program info.

Here's the keep until screen.

Here's the show details screen.

Oh yeah, Bah! Bah, I say!


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## stevel

My guess is that your cable company improperly set the copy protection flag on that program. I did not realize the TiVo software was updated to support this yet.


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## jmoak

*Syndicated Shows?!??!?!??* (regular nights for thoes shows are on sunday)
Ok, somethin's very wrong here.....

Were both of these shows on the same channel?
Was the deleted "King of the Hill" on that channel, too?
What does your Recording History say about the deleted "King of the Hill"? Can you get a screenshot of that?

btw, Thanks for the quick screenshots so far!!

No worries, we'll get to the bottom of this!
I think stevel is on to something, although I think it might be the local broadcasting tv station.


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## PissedMonkey

And the real joke is that I'm using attenna reception, no cable, no satellite. (Yes yes, I know it doesn't make sense. I moved to the woods, and I'm 0.3 of a mile out of Time Warner's service area. Also, trees are too dense for satellite.)



stevel said:


> My guess is that your cable company improperly set the copy protection flag on that program. I did not realize the TiVo software was updated to support this yet.


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## jmoak

That's It!!!!

All these shows are on the same channel,
Fox ch8 WGHP High Point/Winston Salem!!!

There's no way in heck that these shows can be considered "higher-value content". Either that tv station is being a huge butt or someone there has mistakenly set the flag on these programs.

Has this showed up on any other programs on this channel? Try a quick recording of _anything_ on that channel. See what it tells ya.


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## PissedMonkey

jmoak said:


> *Syndicated Shows?!??!?!??* (regular nights for thoes shows are on sunday)
> Ok, somethin's very wrong here.....
> 
> Were both of these shows on the same channel?
> Was the deleted "King of the Hill" on that channel, too?
> What does your Recording History say about the deleted "King of the Hill"? Can you get a screenshot of that?


Yes, both shows were on the same channel.

None of the shows has been deleted yet, and those are the only two that have shown that flag.

Whatever update caused this probably happened around 12:01am Saturday, right before these shows recorded, because the previous nights King of the Hill wasn't flagged.

The Recording History doens't say anything, since the show hasn't been deleted yet.


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## jmoak

PissedMonkey said:


> Yes, both shows were on the same channel.
> 
> None of the shows has been deleted yet, and those are the only two that have shown that flag.


Ah... I misunderstood. Sorry 'bout that.


PissedMonkey said:


> Whatever update caused this probably happened around 12:01am Saturday, right before these shows recorded, because the previous nights King of the Hill wasn't flagged.


I don't think it was something that updated that night as this was rumored to be in the recent ver 7.2 update. I assume you've got version 7.2 on your tivo?

Has this showed up on any other programs on this channel? Try a quick recording of _anything_ on that channel. See what it tells ya.

If they're setting the flag on every program......ewwww!

If anyone in that area is reading this thread and is on cable, try to record these shows. Let's see if the flag get's stripped when that channel is re-modulated for cable.


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## PissedMonkey

I just tried recording the local news (gah!), and it had no flag associated with it.

I'll try a few primetime shows later on tonight.

My real question, however, is why would TiVo even allow it in the first place? Having a secret workaround (either a device to remove the flag before it hit the tivo, or a remote control sequence) to bypass this annoyance like the 30 second jump just won't cut it. When somebody hears how great TiVo is, and how it's TV Your Way, and they buy one, bring it home, and find out that they're _still_ under the thumb of the broadcasters, TiVo will be lucky if they don't just return the damn thing. Sacrificing something that's crucial to the nature of the device for the sake of toys like TiVo-2-Go (which didn't work in the 10 minutes I spent on it) is ludicrous in my mind.

Bah! Bah, I say!



jmoak said:


> That's It!!!!
> 
> All these shows are on the same channel,
> Fox ch8 WGHP High Point/Winston Salem!!!
> 
> There's no way in heck that these shows can be considered "higher-value content". Either that tv station is being a huge butt or someone there has mistakenly set the flag on these programs.
> 
> Has this showed up on any other programs on this channel? Try a quick recording of _anything_ on that channel. See what it tells ya.


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## PissedMonkey

jmoak said:


> Ah... I misunderstood. Sorry 'bout that.
> I don't think it was something that updated that night as this was rumored to be in the recent ver 7.2 update. I assume you've got version 7.2 on your tivo?


Yes, it is indeed 7.2.


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## jmoak

PissedMonkey said:


> I just tried recording the local news (gah!), and it had no flag associated with it.
> 
> I'll try a few primetime shows later on tonight.


It probably would not be on any local originated shows. It might not show up on the primetime shows either, as they are usually routed straight from the feed to broadcast. This is more likely being mistakenly added via the stations local storage/playout equipment, or via some vid router or conditioner.



PissedMonkey said:


> My real question, however, is why would TiVo even allow it in the first place?


I can only point to the story you pointed to in your second post.

If they are doing this on purpose, my question is more to how can a broadcast tv station have the authority to set this flag on content they did not produce?

If this ability is gonna be abused like this then tivo has a pretty damn good argument to remove this.

Now _that_ would be one hell of a marketing opportunity!!


I'd still like to know if anyone in the area has experienced this. It _could_ conceivably be a problem with your tivo.

How old and what model is your tivo?


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## rog

PissedMonkey, I understand why you are pissed, but I believe there are a few misperceptions here.

First: content-protection flags did arrive with the 7.2 software. For the justification as to why TiVo added Macrovision-type protection (a.k.a. "the broadcast flag"), read the Zinn interview from Wired Magazine.

TiVo didn't intend for this to be used with syndicated King of The Hill episodes. I seriously doubt Fox or your local station did either.

There are other reported cases of the broadcast flag being accidentally triggered by local TV stations. The other case I specifically remember was determined to be caused (accidentally) by a local cable co.

Especially since your signal is O.T.A. (antenna), it is very possible that this was just a transmission glitch, which your TiVo mistakingly thought was the broadcast flag.

I suspect if you looked hard enough you could find other cases of this, but each one will involve a different local station and different programs... in other words: this is a bug.


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## PissedMonkey

> How old and what model is your tivo?


Series 2, probably close to 3 years old.



rog said:


> Especially since your signal is O.T.A. (antenna), it is very possible that this was just a transmission glitch, which your TiVo mistakingly thought was the broadcast flag.
> 
> I suspect if you looked hard enough you could find other cases of this, but each one will involve a different local station and different programs... in other words: this is a bug.


I hope you're right. =)


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## Justin Thyme

Isn't this much ado about nothing? Macrovision's idiotic schemes have been trivial to defeat in the past. For analog users, why should this one be any different?

Anyone know if this is stored in the VBI? If a VBI stripper won't defeat it, I can't believe you won't see such boxes floating around on Ebay within a few months of any widespread use of this protection scheme. Of course, if the feed were digital, such protections could be very difficult to defeat.

Analog has a lot of advantages. One of them is relative freedom from these stupid schemes.


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## rainwater

If its a bug, then there better be a workaround. Doing this by accident and saying it was the broadcaster's fault is not going to sit well with users. If shows I haven't seen yet get deleted because of a misuse or misinterpretation of the flag, then it has to be removed until it works correctly (if that is even possible).


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## HDTiVo

There must be a server in China with a TiVo compatible restriction-free MPEG-2 you could download.


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## parzec

Would really like to hear a response from someone at Tivo regarding this issue...anyone listening?


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## Justin Thyme

rainwater said:


> If its a bug, then there better be a workaround. Doing this by accident and saying it was the broadcaster's fault is not going to sit well with users. If shows I haven't seen yet get deleted because of a misuse or misinterpretation of the flag, then it has to be removed until it works correctly (if that is even possible).


 Huh? Did you read the article? What accident? As Zinn stated in the Wired article, Tivo observes the Macrovision flag. Why should they get involved in it- If broadcasters are idiotic enough to avail themselves of it, it will be easily defeated.

Tivo's position is correct- this is not a battle they should or could or even need to fight for the consumer.

Wired: "We asked TiVo general counsel Matthew Zinn why he thinks Hollywood will settle for an inch when it can take a mile." The answer is, Hollywood can't take a mile. If they try, they will wind up losing a mile.

Here's why.

If the content owners want to push consumers into patterns of buying software and hardware to defeat DRM schemes, that is exactly what consumers will do. And once consumers cross that line, they will feel fewer constraints about trading content with their friends.

Zinn's point to the content owners was that they would be ill advised to pursue that route. It's a game content owners will lose, and it will create some consumer patterns that are not to their advantage.

Sure, I would like all DVD players to be region free and not output macrovision polluted signals. But it is a minor annoyance. Anyone can defeat them with very low cost devices. Why is the situation with Tivo any different? Why should we expect Tivo to take dangerous risks? To save us the possible cost of a $20 box that at this point isn't necessary because no one except this Salem station has accidently or intentionally used this flag?

Seems pretty silly to me.


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## PissedMonkey

Justin Thyme said:


> Why should we expect Tivo to take dangerous risks? To save us the possible cost of a $20 box that at this point isn't necessary because no one except this Salem station has accidently or intentionally used this flag?Seems pretty silly to me.


Because the people that read this forum might shell out $20 for a box to remove macrovision tags are only a small portion of TiVo's userbase. By having TiVo's system adhere, by default, to a apparently easily abused system of copy protection that, as I understand it, is not mandated by law is going to significantly lessen the apeal of TiVo in the world of DVRs. The type of person that frequents a TiVo bulletin board will find solutions to any problem that comes in their way, the other 99% of the people will just find another place to spend their money though, and that's going to kill TiVo's $0.00 per share "earnings".

Or something.

Bah. Bah, I say!


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## Justin Thyme

PissedMonkey said:


> ...By having TiVo's system adhere, by default, to a apparently easily abused system of copy protection that, as I understand it, is not mandated by law is going to significantly lessen the apeal of TiVo in the world of DVRs. ...


All I am saying is that this is nothing new. Try this- play a dvd into a dvd recorder Tivo. Now try to MRV it to another Tivo. Guess what it says- That's right. It has a red circle slash- copy prohibitted. Same thing.

Now, anyone who is interested in high quality video signals will be familiar with boxes that clean up interference created from various sources. I don't think anyone would be surprized to learn that Tivo has no problem allowing copying of video that doesn't have a lot of extraneous junk in the signal.

If you clean up your video signal, I think you will be interested in the results.

The people that cared about this sort of thing with DVDs did not flock to CE companies that made DVD players without macrovision protection. It did not as you phrase it, "significantly lessen their appeal" over boxes that had been hacked to remove the protection. It is much cheaper to simply buy a $20 add on box if you want to do that sort of thing. Why belly ache about these impotent schemes? Macrovision didn't stop a whole heck of a lot of people who wanted to dub dvds to VHS or to writable DVDs- and it isn't going to have any affect on similar minded people using DVRs- whatever the brand.

I don't see why you expect Tivo to behave differently. They are a CE company, and have to walk a line to get the content guys to loosen up. I think the content guys are going to find that digital distribution is as much a gold mine as VHS distribution was. Naturally, Hollywood is freaked out about scenarios that their property will be made valueless by easy creation of exact copies of their content. They have good reason to procede cautiously. There are billions of dollars of their property value at stake.

I may poke fun at them when I remark that things like CGMS and this Macrovision thing are pacifiers to get them through this high anxiety phase- but it's very serious business to them. Their survival is at stake, and it may take a while for them to stop hyperventilating.

So in the meantime, if you want to have a higher quality signal, you should probably look at ways of enhancing it. Of course, I do not recommend you attempt to defeat copy protections schemes.

There's no reason to get pissed if it's a trivial problem to deal with.


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## ZeoTiVo

PissedMonkey said:


> By having TiVo's system adhere, by default, to a apparently easily abused system of copy protection that, as I understand it, is not mandated by law is going to significantly lessen the apeal of TiVo in the world of DVRs.


and the fact that HBO can check for macrovision license and if not found - refuse to let any show record in the first place. Do you think that might lessen the appeal of a TiVo DVR just a bit more ?

TiVo has no choice in the matter that is a good choice. Either have the macovison license and thus honor the macrovision provisions like all the other DVRs do or else decide to not use it and try and explain to customers unaware of such things why channels can not be recorded at all.

As you note, the macrovision is not hard to break, so TiVo will have the license and know that hard core users can have their cake and eat it too. This will be a blip on the radar just like those horrible thumb icons billboard ads that were predicted to fill landfills with TiVo DVRs


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## interactiveTV

ZeoTiVo said:


> and the fact that HBO can check for macrovision license and if not found - refuse to let any show record in the first place. Do you think that might lessen the appeal of a TiVo DVR just a bit more ?


I'm not sure how this would be true.

First off, without a Macrovision license, the WORST that can happen is degredation of the video signal. Without adherence to Macrovision ACP in the Tivo, there is nothing in the ANALOG video signal that could possible force refusal to record. Without a Macrovision IC in the Tivo, how the hell could HBO possibly control in any way what the Tivo records? Try recording a DVD to VHS. The VHS doesn't refuse to record, does it? It just degrades the signal.

Macrovision ACP (APCe) is added to the vido signal and that activation bits instructs the integrated circuit within the cable box (or Tivo) to add ACP to the outgoing analog video. If Tivo did not have a Macrovision license, it would still encode the analog video. It's the quality of that video that could be compromised.

The Macrovision ACP is completely voluntary and is more about being a good corporate citizen. Plugging the analog hole is a near-term issue anyway. And Macrovision ACP is targeted at Video on Demand, not pay channels. HBO does have an on-demand product but if Tivo did not include a Macrovision IC in its products, there is no way the Tivo would refuse to record. That just doesn't make any sense.

There is only an oblique consumer benefit to Tivo licensing Macrovision. The analog restrictions ONLY directly benefit the content rights holders and analog recording restrictions are nothing but a hindrance to consumers. However, since VOD is not broadcast in any traditional sense of the word, allows inherently the ability to (in a limited sense) time-shift (but not archive), and (iirc) only includes a SINGLE view license, it wouldn't be that difficult to show economic harm from allowing PVR recording and there would be minimal (really if ANY) protection under Betamax.

Your "fact" above still appears to be less factual based on how Macrovision actually works. Without compliance (the Macrovision IC) to ACP, the worst that can happen is a degraded video signal. I fail to see how any encoding to an analog video signal could possible control the actual recording (yes/no/time limit) of a program in a Tivo without the ACP chip. That type of control must be added to the OS.

_ITV


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## Justin Thyme

We don't really know that the OP's phenomenon is due to Macrovision and not CGMS, but in any case, this is not a question that has anything to do with macrovision scrambling.

It also has nothing to do with being a good corporate citizen. DVR producers are being forced to bend over, and they have no choice. The content owners are creating interlocking requirements. Want to produce a Tivo that plays or writes DVDs? You need a CSS license. You want a CSS license? CSS requires a Macrovision license. You want a Macrovision license- you have to obey content flags. Macrovision license requires you to obey the copy never flag, to obey the flag that says delete the content within 24 hours of being viewed, and the flag that says you can watch as many times as you like, but the content must be deleted after 7 days. I wouldn't at all be surprized if DTCP and CGMS is all interlocked together too.

The macrovision flags are no big mystery- it's documented on the Tivo site:

The content industry is attempting to paint CE vendors into a corner with these interlocking licenses.

Hollywood's problem is that those flags and protections can very simply be removed from analog input signals. If something happens to the signal and Tivo doesn't see the flag, then your Tivo will very happily not exhibit any of these automatic deletion features- further- they are fully compliant with their licenses so they can't be sued into oblivion over something they have no knowlege of, or participation with. Analog is not going away anytime soon, so as I said... Much ado about nothing.

"Plugging the analog hole" is a pathetic fantasy. As long as we still have devices capable of recording analog signals, the content industry will be unable to fulfill a strategy of coercing both consumers and the CE industry. Technically, it is a ludicrous task. Macrovision is running around getting Roxio, Nvidia, etc etc to obey their rules but it is hopeless. Only one unplugged leak and the ship is sunk. Even if they somehow could, what are they thinking? That HD camcorders are not going to soon enough cost $300, and that someone won't get the highly sophisticated idea of pointing their camcorder at their 50 inch electronic display? How will they ever prevent widespread sharing of such HD copies on the net in an anonymous fashion? No- ultimately they have no technical leverage for a coercive strategy.

They will instead have to rely on good will.

Right now, they are doing a very poor job of it.


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## starbreiz

I've been watching this thread, and I know there was another recent thread where someone accidently put this flag on some little cooking show. Everyone's getting all up in arms about this flag... if you're so concerned, why not make your voice heard to the cable companies like HBO who will be using it. I read about it on BoingBoing in December and wrote a nice letter to HBO and actually got a response. *****ing about MVSN won't do any good, because the flag already exists, their part is done.


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## rog

what starbreiz said.

what i was trying to emphasize in my first post is that this is most likely a bug, and not a deliberate attempt to set the broadcast/copyright flag. this rare glitch on local o.t.a. king of the hill episodes is not about taking away your fair use.

there are other more serious implications to consider with the new technology introduced in 7.2, and there are possibilities for misuse, but that's not what we are seeing here in this thread.

i don't understand the volume of complaints here. this is much ado about nothing.


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## interactiveTV

Justin Thyme said:


> Only one unplugged leak and the ship is sunk. Even if they somehow could, what are they thinking?


 Well, we did about 10 threads on this before you got here but basically:

1) consumers are lazy and most won't bother with a "video stabilizer." Which is true.

2) since the majority of consumers don't yet have a PVR, it sets a great path for future content protection schemes. It's easier to start them off with some restrictions rather than try and take away something they will take as a god-given right later.

3) and most importantly, it's another revenue stream for Macrovision which will have trouble in the new, digital world.

But again, we already did a few rounds on this. Tivo told us it was coming. We did the usual, "but they can't! I have fair use!!!" thing. Bottom line is Tivo already is a Macrovision licensee and the license forces the upgraded product.

_ITV


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## starbreiz

interactiveTV said:


> 3) and most importantly, it's another revenue stream for Macrovision which will have trouble in the new, digital world.
> _ITV


I didn't understand this?


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## interactiveTV

starbreiz said:


> I didn't understand this?


Macrovision is in the business of selling product. By coming up with a way to allow VOD (and SVOD) to be protected, Macrovision gets to sell more product. For example, unless I'm mistaken, HBO wasn't a Macrovision customer in terms of cable until the past year.

In the digital world of television, the content protection system is designed by committee and comprised of different moving parts but Macrovision doesn't control it or sell it. It isn't a Macrovision product.

In terms of DVD which has CSS -- already cracked -- Macrovision tries to sell a product but I doubt they'll have anything much to do with HD-DVD or Blu Ray.

http://macrovision.com/products/index.shtml

The bottom line is that Macrovision's analog video products are originally based on automatic gain control (AGC) circuitry originally found in VHS and other tape based recorders. It's an analog product and was, at the time, a very smart way to protect content -- to an extent -- and create lots and lots of revenue. In the digital world, copy protection is created by many companies getting together and is usually created -- nowadays -- prior to introduction of the actual media or distribution. Macrovision's "after-market" type protection racket days are coming to an end.

_ITV


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## Justin Thyme

interactiveTV said:


> Well, we did about 10 threads on this before you got here...


 Actually, the discussion was really over quite a while before that. You are off by a few decades. The issue was beat to death ages ago with Dongles and other DRM schemes in software. For an interesting primer on the subject, consider the following ACM paper published in 2002. I excerpt the conclusion:



> There is evidence that the darknet will continue to exist and provide low cost, high-quality service to a large group of consumers. This means that in many markets, the darknet will be a competitor to legal commerce. From the point of view of economic theory, this has profound implications for business strategy: for example, increased security (e.g. stronger DRM systems) may act as a disincentive to legal commerce. Consider an MP3 file sold on a web site: this costs money, but the purchased object is as useful as a version acquired from the darknet. However, a securely DRM-wrapped song is strictly less attractive: although the industry is striving for flexible licensing rules, customers will be restricted in their actions if the system is to provide meaningful security. This means that a vendor will probably make more money by selling unprotected objects than protected objects. In short, if you are competing with the darknet, you must compete on the darknets own terms: that is convenience and low cost rather than additional security.


 "The Darknet and the Future of Content Distribution"


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## rainwater

Justin Thyme said:


> Huh? Did you read the article? What accident? As Zinn stated in the Wired article, Tivo observes the Macrovision flag. Why should they get involved in it- If broadcasters are idiotic enough to avail themselves of it, it will be easily defeated.


I don't care about the article. I'm talking about the flags that are getting set by accident or illegally that affect us the users. I have no problem if TiVo is required to abide by the flag. However, if users are getting screwed because of the flag being incorrectly set, then there has to be a workaround.


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## ZeoTiVo

interactiveTV said:


> I'm not sure how this would be true.
> 
> First off, without a Macrovision license, the WORST that can happen is degredation of the video signal. Without adherence to Macrovision ACP in the Tivo, there is nothing in the ANALOG video signal that could possible force refusal to record. Without a Macrovision IC in the Tivo, how the hell could HBO possibly control in any way what the Tivo records? Try recording a DVD to VHS. The VHS doesn't refuse to record, does it? It just degrades the signal. _ITV


a scrambled recording that is enitrely unwatchable is the same thing. since this whole concept is new to many posters in this thread I was making a point not going on ad naseum on the detail

I was further making the point that CE devices are not the correct place to express outrage against. the content providers are the ones looking for ways to protect content and increase revenue. HBO wants you to pay for their channel or rent the DVD. They do not want you to watch a copy a friend easily made on a DVR with a DVD burner.

it will be interesting to watch HBO, etc.. trying to be proactive against the darknet. Of course the real battle will be in the upcoming digital realm of HD after analog is looked upon as no better than pointing a camera at a movie screen.


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## interactiveTV

ZeoTiVo said:


> a scrambled recording that is enitrely unwatchable is the same thing. since this whole concept is new to many posters in this thread I was making a point not going on ad naseum on the detail.


 Actually, no it's not the same thing. You posted the same "fact" in two different threads and it's inaccurate. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3234271&&#post3234271



ZeoTiVo said:


> and the fact that HBO can check for macrovision license and if not found - refuse to let any show record in the first place. Do you think that might lessen the appeal of a TiVo DVR just a bit more ?


If my PVR never records it, I have no ability to "fix" the AGC. I'm also unsure that the show *would* be "entirely unwatchable" as AGC and MPEG encoding don't seem to go together. I'm not sure the show would be unwatchable at all, actually. It might have AGC issues. Then again, it might not.

Regardless, for accuracy's sake, Zeo, it is OK to admit you were mistaken in the "fact" you posted in two different threads rather than try and walk it back. When there are mistaken "facts" posted about Tivo (labelled as FUD), there is a large outcry to correct them. I've been wrong here as have many others. If we post facts, we might as well make sure they actually ARE.

Without the Macrovision IC and license, there is no way for an analog signal to control whether a PVR records or not.

_ITV

P.S. as for the "revelation" that consumers won't pay for security that doesn't benefit them but only benefits the content rights holders, all I can say is I'm glad I didn't pay for that study.


----------



## morac

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it illegal to tag an over-the-air broadcast with a copy/viewing protection flag. Over the air broadcasts should never be restricted.


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## ZeoTiVo

morac said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it illegal to tag an over-the-air broadcast with a copy/viewing protection flag. Over the air broadcasts should never be restricted.


yes, the OP experienced a glitch in that the tags were placed in a broadcast stream when they should not have been placed there. These copy restriction bits are an update of the macrovision license and relatively new for broadcasters as well. We saw some of the same of this after 7.1x was released so TiVo has had the code to honor the new parts of the license in palce for a while.

Unfortunately we are seeing local stations having trouble. I speculate that they make some change to exisiting equipment or put some new piece of equipment in place and it inadvertently changes the broadcast stream in an unintended way.

so far I have seen no reports of these glitches lasting for long. Perhaps they can get into trouble if they do not remedy the glitch in a reasonable timeframe.


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## interactiveTV

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes, the OP experienced a glitch in that the tags were placed in a broadcast stream when they should not have been placed there. These copy restriction bits are an update of the macrovision license and relatively new for broadcasters as well. We saw some of the same of this after 7.1x was released so TiVo has had the code to honor the new parts of the license in palce for a while.
> 
> Unfortunately we are seeing local stations having trouble. I speculate that they make some change to exisiting equipment or put some new piece of equipment in place and it inadvertently changes the broadcast stream in an unintended way.
> 
> so far I have seen no reports of these glitches lasting for long. Perhaps they can get into trouble if they do not remedy the glitch in a reasonable timeframe.


 I would suggest that since the local broadcast affiliate would have absolutely no use for the Macrovision technology that the tags were not placed in the broadcast stream at all but by the cable operator or maybe even the national feed. We can't know for sure but I don't know why a local affiliate or a broadcast station would have the Macrovision equipment installed for this anyway.

BTW: I recorded HBO on-demand on my Series 1 Tivo in my office. The Tivo didn't refuse to record it, the picture was just fine.

_ITV


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## Justin Thyme

interactiveTV said:


> Without the Macrovision IC and license, there is no way for an analog signal to control whether a PVR records or not.


Nonsense. The VBI "no copy and expiration" flags information is documented. If software engineers wish to obey these flags, they can choose to allow these signals to control the behavior of their software, or they can choose to disregard them. They certainly don't need the Macrovision IC or license to do so.


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## interactiveTV

Justin Thyme said:


> Nonsense. The VBI "no copy and expiration" flags information is documented. If software engineers wish to obey these flags, they can choose to allow these signals to control the behavior of their software, or they can choose to disregard them. They certainly don't need the Macrovision IC or license to do so.


 And I can take money from a bank. I certainly don't need a check or ID to do so. That doesn't make it legal. I'm pretty certain you can't implement Macrovision protections without a license from Macrovision. You _can_ technically do so, I would imagine but

(a) it would be theft of intellectual property to do so without a Macrovision license
(b) it would be pretty stupid

My point was and remains that Zeo's "fact" that HBO -- no mention of the DVR -- but the company -- could enforce a "no record" if no Macrovision license was found on the DVR is FALSE.

That it CAN be done on the OS level was MY EXACT POINT a few posts down:



> Your "fact" above still appears to be less factual based on how Macrovision actually works. Without compliance (the Macrovision IC) to ACP, the worst that can happen is a degraded video signal. I fail to see how any encoding to an analog video signal could possible [sic] control the actual recording (yes/no/time limit) of a program in a Tivo without the ACP chip. That type of control must be added to the OS.


so your illuminating "nonesense" post only AGREES with my point that it MUST be done on the software (OS) level. I had already established that but thanks for making the same point again.

There is no way HBO can control your PVR merely due to a lack of a Macrovision license. That "fact" is silly regardless of how many threads it gets posted in or any attempts to couch it.

I'm sure Macrovision would be extremely happy if a PVR manufacturer added its product without paying. We've entered a new realm of discussion: theft of intellectual property on the corporate level where anything goes.

_ITV


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## Justin Thyme

You are out of your element. No Macrovision technology is being used to read the OTA show "protected" in this way. They are 2 APS macrovision bits carried as payload data embedded in the extended data field for closed captioning which is stored in the vertical blanking interval (VBI). This is different than the CGMS bits that HBO is using but they are carried in the same payload.

Those flags can control the PVR software without any license from Macrovision.

In any case, folks that want to turn on or turn off those bits might be interested in the following device. It does not degrade the signal as some "video stabilizers" do, because all it is manipulating is the VBI data. This particular one is nice because it handles Component connectors as well as S-Video and Composite.

http://www.smr-group.co.uk/articles/macrovision_filter_01.html

It seems to me the box may be way overkill- a 2 buck filter circuit to nuke the entire VBI might suffice for use with Tivos.


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## Justin Thyme

Some footnotes to this note that may be of no interest to most folks, but I want to include them here because I for one am going to forget all this stuff in a few days....

BTW-This box may only manipulate the CGMS copy bits, which are different than the macrovision bit flags. I don't know, maybe the designer would be able to answer. He is on avsforums as "Logic Design". Searching for messages authored by him would produce facts about his device. One thread of particular interest may be found here.

Such a device would take care of HBO behavior, since they are using cgms-a.

Of course, a box that entirely reconstitutes and cleans up the video signal would also do the job. A survey of some of the devices is at http://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=243476.

These devices are hardly shady- Professional video guys (weddings, dog shows etc) use the CGMS boxes to add the flags quickly. And without the video stabilizer boxes, many high end video projectors and other devices will not work properly. Compusa sells a popular stabilizer, as does Best Buy , but you can get them for $53 as a Buy it now price on Ebay, or less if you are patient.

The Consumer electronics daily article that was the subject of a thread  a while back. This describes the meeting where Macrovision presented ideas for expanded use (as part of ACP-E) of these trigger bits, also known as APS bits. Here is a copy a little more legible than the one copied on TCF:http://www.talkaboutvideo.com/group/alt.video.ptv.replaytv/messages/22024.html None of the chicken little talk happenned- The world not only still has 40 hour Tivos, we have outfits like weaknees who will build us a Tivo with 20 times that capacity if we so desire. Nor do we have any of the non PPV/VOD channels using these flags except in the case of rare glitches like the OP's.

Anyhow, these APS trigger bits are carried in CGMS-A VBI fields on different lines depending on whether the signal is 480i, 720p, 1080i etc. The public specification is EIA-608-B for 480i. Those who prefer their text with lots of pictures will be interested in slide 4 of the CEA slide presentation on CGMS-A. 

Developers may access the 7bit field directly, or may access it in public apis. MS has it in the VIDEOPARAMETERS struct within the bCP_APSTriggerBits member. Here is an XFree X-Windows driver  retrieving the APS values using a National semiconductor FS450 chip to read the analog signal. See function fs450_get_aps_trigger_bits.

I think Macrovision would very much like to require that their proprietary decoder chip (or at least the functionality of one) be required in all CE devices that carry a Macrovision license. In a few years, it will be inexpensive enough to require all Macrovision licensees to incorporate watermark detection processing so that the macrovision circuitry will be aware when the user is attempting to play pirated content. Such watermarking could even survive the Camcorder taking a picture of a Hidef screen. Huge expense. Easy piggeyback chips or software hacks to defeat them in a few months.

A survey of DRM technologies the MPAA found interesting in 2003 may be found here. This includes CGMS that is only now seeing the light of day and watermarking which we have not yet seen a lot of. (that we know of).

Pointless waste of development resources.

This is just round one in what could be a hundred round fight. But ultimately, Hollywood is going to figure out that they will have to content themselves that these techniques are only speed bumps, and they will have to compete in terms of convenience and cost with the Darknet.

Hollywood will continue to make even more mind bongling amounts of money due to digital distribution, and in time they will realise the practical realities of this new terrain is not the problem they now imagine it to be.


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## jg123

It does seem like there should be a way to turn off the automatic expiry on the Tivo if it was a mistake. Since the mistakes do happen, we ought to be able to call our local station and get some code to unlock the accidently locked show. It doesn't seem right that they can just say, "Sorry our mistake. Oh, and there's no way to undo it. Oops!"


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## simonalope

ZeoTiVo said:


> so far I have seen no reports of these glitches lasting for long. Perhaps they can get into trouble if they do not remedy the glitch in a reasonable timeframe.


I've had "unintended" red flags on every single recording from two channels (from the same provider) since the day I downloaded 7.2, continuing to this day. I also recently discovered that a pre-7.2 recording on that channel was copy-protected (said so in the program info, wasn't able to transfer via TTG), although without a flag. TiVo is aware of what I'm seeing and say they're working on it.


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## gonzotek

simonalope said:


> I've had "unintended" red flags on every single recording from two channels (from the same provider) since the day I downloaded 7.2, continuing to this day. I also recently discovered that a pre-7.2 recording on that channel was copy-protected (said so in the program info, wasn't able to transfer via TTG), although without a flag. TiVo is aware of what I'm seeing and say they're working on it.


Which channels on what provider in what locality?  Just curious.


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## Justin Thyme

If anyone actually is experiencing this and can capture this signal to an mpeg file (eg using a PC with a capture board), it would be a nice public service if you could post a small example file up on the net somewhere. It's possible the capture software could strip the info, but if it is closed captions aware, then it may well pass them through.

It would be really interesting to hear what the resolution of this is- if this was due to some local cableco or broadcaster tech fiddling with a closed captions box that he shouldn't have been fiddling with, or whether it was a Tivo bug.

Also- if you know anyone who has a Pal/NTSC converter, or a video stabilizer, and can borrow one, it would be interesting to hear if that nukes the problem.


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## starbreiz

Heh. This thread made it to pvrblog.com.


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## Dan203

The problem with "video stabilizers" is they only work when something other then the TiVo is doing the tuning. (i.e. cable box or DSS receiver) If you have strait cable or OTA going into the back of your TiVo, like the OP, then you're out of luck. 

The situation is going to be even more dire when CableCARD devices become the standard and no one is using external tuners any more. Once that happens consumers will no longer have a way to defeat the protection via an external device, and will be forced to either deal with it or resort to complicated software hacks. 

Dan


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## TiVoStephen

PissedMonkey said:


> ...forced deletions of shows on my TiVo.


PissedMonkey, can you please send me your 15-digit TiVo Service Number? We'd like to investigate this issue. Please e-mail it to me ([email protected]).

Best regards,
Stephen


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## Justin Thyme

Simonalope, you also report this problem.

Stephen, maybe you would be interested in Simonalope's TSN as well?


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## Justin Thyme

Dan203 said:


> The problem with "video stabilizers" is they only work when something other then the TiVo is doing the tuning.


Right. (Minor quibble- they aren't all stabilizers. Actually the CGMS filter is probably vastly superior to the stabilizers/ format converters.)

Consumers may come to the conclusion as I have that analog is much more versatile than Digital. This is what I meant by:


Justin Thyme said:


> Analog has a lot of advantages. One of them is relative freedom from these stupid schemes.


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## simonalope

Justin Thyme said:


> Simonalope, you also report this problem.
> 
> Stephen, maybe you would be interested in Simonalope's TSN as well?


TiVo is in touch with me already about this.


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## ZeoTiVo

simonalope said:


> I've had "unintended" red flags on every single recording from two channels (from the same provider) since the day I downloaded 7.2, continuing to this day. I also recently discovered that a pre-7.2 recording on that channel was copy-protected (said so in the program info, wasn't able to transfer via TTG), although without a flag. TiVo is aware of what I'm seeing and say they're working on it.


bummer, there is the report of it lasting. I was hoping there was some FCC reg. that would compel the broadcaster to fix things more quickly. Now we can only speculate if it is actual the macrovision bits specifically being set or some close captioning box or other such device is setting something errant and Tivo accidently picking up on it as the bits on copy protection


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## davezatz

Well this topic has got legs... several blogs, in addition to PVRBlog, have picked up the story such as BoingBoing.net. I expect it will continue to spread. Bug or no bug, the technology framework exists on our individual boxes and it seems to rub people the wrong way. 

Wouldn't it be nice if Tivo responded by announcing auto-commercial skip, a la ReplayTV, to soothe the masses. Am I dreaming?


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## Dan203

davezatz said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if Tivo responded by announcing auto-commercial skip, a la ReplayTV, to soothe the masses. Am I dreaming?


Considering ReplayTV was sued and ultimately had to remove this feature, I'd say yes you're dreaming. 

Dan


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## Dan203

ZeoTiVo said:


> bummer, there is the report of it lasting. I was hoping there was some FCC reg. that would compel the broadcaster to fix things more quickly.


There is! anything broadcast over public airwaves is prohibitied from containing any copy protection. He should contact the FCC and see if they'll throw a few fines at the broadcaster. That should get them to fix it a little quicker.

Dan


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## megazone

Dan203 said:


> There is! anything broadcast over public airwaves is prohibitied from containing any copy protection. He should contact the FCC and see if they'll throw a few fines at the broadcaster. That should get them to fix it a little quicker.


You realize this was most likely a transmission glitch and not something the broadcaster was doing deliberately. This has come up in the past and it has turned out to be a glitch - noise in the VBI which unfortunately matched what the flag would look like.

I saw Cory's rant at BoingBoing - I'd comment there if there were a way, but people forget that ReplayTV and other DVRs *also* have the same MacroVision license and honor the same flags as TiVo. ReplayTV agreed to the license a year before TiVo did! So Cory ranting about TiVo and saying to look at other vendors is misinformed and assinine.


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## Dan203

I realize that the OPs situation was probably just a glitch, but another user (simonalope) claims that one station in his area flags every recording. That's not a glitch, that's a problem at the station and in my opinion warrants contacting the FCC.

Dan


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## ZeoTiVo

Dan203 said:


> I realize that the OPs situation was probably just a glitch, but another user (simonalope) claims that one station in his area flags every recording. That's not a glitch, that's a problem at the station and in my opinion warrants contacting the FCC.
> 
> Dan


the broadcasters need to start catching a clue that these kind of glitches are now possible, effect customers and that they need a quick response to fix it.

Letters and then fines from the FCC will probably be the real fix. I wonder if the FCC reg has anything about frequency of errors and time frames to fix.


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## dgh

megazone said:


> but people forget that ReplayTV and other DVRs *also* have the same MacroVision license and honor the same flags as TiVo. ReplayTV agreed to the license a year before TiVo did!


One of the ReplayTV varients, the Panasonic Showstopper, had a reputation for "seeing" Macrovision where there really wasn't any.

Macrovsision is more complex than a "flag". It's a "family" of systems designed to fool VCR AGCs. As a result, it takes a little work for a PVR to recognize a member of this family and act "appropriately" yet not be fooled by some similar junk.


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## megazone

Maybe I'm confused, but I thought the broadcast version of MacroVision used bits in the VBI to indicate the kind of restrictions to perform.

I know the media kind - that found on VHS and DVD - plays with the video signal itself, but I didn't think that was true in broadcast.


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## TiVoPony

megazone said:


> You realize this was most likely a transmission glitch and not something the broadcaster was doing deliberately.


We do believe this to be the case, and if anyone else sees this happen please do send Stephen or myself a private message with your TSN and any available information about the broadcaster. Thanks.

Simonalope, I believe I've chatted with you. We're talking about a small local PBS station, right? If that's the case, you have been very helpful, and we do appreciate it. I know that our team is trying to get more information from the broadcaster regarding their setup. It's quite likely that they're doing something funky, and have been for a long long time. It's just now that anyone would notice.

As others have noted, we have seen the random occurance of this before. And in each case there's been a glitch or a bug lurking somewhere. Nothing malevolant.

Thanks,
Pony


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## Justin Thyme

Well, it was kind of deliberate/malevolent. Cookie monster ate the CGMS box in the control room.


megazone said:


> Maybe I'm confused, but I thought the broadcast version of MacroVision used bits in the VBI to indicate the kind of restrictions to perform.


 Right- in the extended data field for closed captioning. Fuller details here.  It's documented as APS trigger bits in EIA-608-B. Prior to this new use, the APS trigger bit values were used to indicate which Macrovision APS scheme to use when outputing a scrambled signal. According to what I read, it is carried in the same 7bit field that also holds the CGMS copy flags- see my reference to a CEA presentation- I think I mentioned it was on slide4.


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## rainwater

Well, I really see no end to these "glitches". It will be like fighting a never ending battle that will only upset the TiVo users. TiVo can contact the broadcasters all they want, but there will certainly continue to be "glitches" like this.


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## starbreiz

Glitches... like when the programming data is wrong, and your TiVo gets the wrong program? Or doesn't record a new episode because it thinks it's a rerun? And TiVo contacts the folks who provide the guide data or whatnot. Glitches of all sorts happen. How is this new? I still feel like people are kneejerking.


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## Justin Thyme

I suppose if it is as Dan says, that it is an FCC violation for OTA broadcasters to turn on these, then Tivo would be doing them a favor if they did not copy over these bits, and send automatic mail to them when such signals are detected. Seems like Macrovision would be amenable to that sort of arrangement. This sort of negative PR is not doing them any favours.

I don't know if Jim Denney is going to get his zero false positives though- Tivo would be legally exposed if due to a Tribune media channel listing error they inadvertently stripped CGMS or Macrovision bits off of a Pay channel.

CNet's Daniel Terdiman led off his story with "A bug in the latest version of TiVo's operating system has some users concerned..."

Once again demonstrating that reporters are paid to write, not read. Right there in the blanking interval of the content, the macrovision flags were saying- I'm protected. Unless there is some provision that Tivo can ignore flags if they have a reasonable basis to believe were unintentionally set, Tivo is contractually obligated to obey those flags, and it's sofware did.

Tivo bug indeed. This is technical reporting? Baldrick had more capacity for comprehension.


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## garys

This issue got "boing-boinged", so expect to see if get lots of additional press. http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/13/tivo_wont_save_certa.html


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## Justin Thyme

Bunch of jingoistic tripe:


boingobongosforbrains said:


> Note to potential TiVo competitors: MythTV is like TiVo except it includes all the features that the entertainment industry has intimidated TiVo into leaving out. And it's free. Go make a product out of it, put it in stores, and you will sell a squillion of them.


One teensy caveat. Boingoboingo forgot to tell them that this competitor would have to pull all their products that can play any DVDs.

No obey macrovision flags, = no macrovision license. 
No Macrovision license = no CSS license. 
No Css license, no DVD products.

Right. So the CE vendor gives up products that sell in the 100s of millions for a product that has a hard time selling in the 100's of thousands because the Cablecos are giving them away for free.

Brilliant mind for business you have there, Boingo.


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## starbreiz

I've seen this posted all over the place, so I didn't mention BoingBoing. However, I feel the need to point out that JWZ called you tivo fanboys


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## Justin Thyme

Oh, that hurt, especially from a fellow who believes he would have gotten this behavior on his DirecTivo were in not for the fact that he had to hack is direcTivo to repair his hard drive. 

As if this had anything to do with Tivo. He can't fix his hard drive or get any of the HME or TTG upgrades to his DVR not because of Tivo, but because of DirecTv.

There is a guy responding on that thread that knows his stuff though- zonereyrie's points are on the money.


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## starbreiz

yeah, zone's like the resident guru in the livejournal tivolovers community. i'm somewhat surprised he doesn't frequent this site.


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## dgh

megazone said:


> I know the media kind - that found on VHS and DVD - plays with the video signal itself, but I didn't think that was true in broadcast.


I thought that was the type that the Showstopper was mis-detecting but I could be wrong about that.


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## Justin Thyme

dgh said:


> Macrovsision is more complex than a "flag". It's a "family" of systems designed to fool VCR AGCs. As a result, it takes a little work for a PVR to recognize a member of this family and act "appropriately" yet not be fooled by some similar junk.


 Right, but none of the protections (color burst phase shift, gain control macro protection) that we historically associate with the term "macrovision" has relevance to transmission. They do have relevance for copying analog signals output from devices like VHS's or DVDs, or what the digital device is supposed to to when it goes back out to analog form. The macrovision feature relevant to OTA, Cable, Satellite transmissions and computer representations is a different beast.

On DVDs, the aps trigger bits were used to designate which analog protection technique was to be used when generating macrovision's output (none, agc, agc+2line colorstripe, and agc+4 line colorstripe). At the LA IRMA piracy workshop mentioned in the September 2004 Consumer Electronics Daily article, Macrovision revealed its new policy and usage of these fields embedding in CGMS information stored in the closed caption data fields found int the vertical blanking interval. The values in these bit fields correspond to the 4 states that Tivo mentions on its website, and in the article.

Obviously, AGC Macrovision techniques have no relevance for broadcast content or computer representation. CGMS-A and the new meanings for the APS (macrovision analog protection system) flags do. Note, these flags are different from the CGMS copy once, copy never, etc. flags, and apparently are intended to augment them with more variety in the kinds of permissions allowed.

Here is the CEA slide I refered to that illustrates in a bold fashion the location of the APS trigger flags:







Not just CE devices but Computer systems are expected to not only respond appropriately to, but to retain these values as they are processed within a system. This MS document  explains that to be compliant, a directshow filter must support retaining and responding appropriately to these very bits, and retrict themselves to communicating only with other filters which are macrovision compliant. Presumably, longhorn/vista is going to be the enforcer for this data hand off, and control the queryinterface so that a rogue filter cannot simply lie to the caller. Take a look at the example code for what is supposed to happen if a queryinterface fails to find support for the Macrovision Copy flags (search for aps and macrovision bypass)

IMHO, it is all a pretty shameless milk-money-from-the-gullible-media-industries operation. The emperor has no clothes. None of this junk is anything more than a suitcase lock.

How much simpler can it be stated. Anything that can be seen can be recorded.

Of course simple arguments take a while to sink in. The battleship bombed by Billy Mitchells flyers took only a few minutes to sink into the mud where she was sunk, but this pretty obvious argument never sunk in on the admirals watching the demonstration. Instead, they had Mitchell court marshalled and spent treasure and over a decade to line them up in pearl harbor for another demonstration.


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## Mike Farrington

TiVoPony said:


> We're talking about a small local PBS station, right? If that's the case, you have been very helpful, and we do appreciate it. I know that our team is trying to get more information from the broadcaster regarding their setup. It's quite likely that they're doing something funky, and have been for a long long time. It's just now that anyone would notice.


Watch out for those PBS stations. They send out time sync codes with thier signals. I think they're piggybacked onto the VBI, but I'm not 100% sure.

In fact, I believe that it's TiVo's inability to encode and reproduce (or strip) this time sync code on my three PBS stations that is causing me great headaches with my television. Whenever watching recorded shows from PBS, my TV freaks out. It's firmware gets all screwed up, presumably by a malformed time sync signal being relayed from the tivo. I frequently have to turn my TV off and back on to fix it. Sometimes I need to 'cold boot' it by unplugging it for 2-5 minutes.

I know this has nothing to do with this copy protection flag. I just wanted to remind TiVo about the time sync signal that PBS sends out with their broadcasts.

-Mike


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## davezatz

starbreiz said:


> Glitches... like when the programming data is wrong, and your TiVo gets the wrong program?


Does the average Joe consumer know or even care who's fault it is? They certainly know Tivo is collecting a fee for the hardware and service, so it seems natural to point the finger in that direction.

Combined with documented system software screwups, one gets the sense Tivo's quality control ain't up to snuff. Which doesn't make them unique in the marketplace, it makes them common. I expect glitches from my Microsoft operating system and poor customer service from Comcast, but for some reason I've always had higher hopes and expectations for Tivo. Until the buggy 7.1 rolled out anyway...

EDIT: I just get a sense that there isn't pervasive attention to detail in the company. For example, there are frequently misspellings on their website. I would think standard QA would include running a spell check and having another person review content. Here's today's example:

Job Title: Oracel Database Administrator (Contractor)
Requisition #: tivo-00000116
Division: Consumer Business Division
Area of Interest: Information Technology


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## ZeoTiVo

starbreiz said:


> yeah, zone's like the resident guru in the livejournal tivolovers community. i'm somewhat surprised he doesn't frequent this site.


he used to until anyone who spoke the real story was labeled a fanboy as if that somehow negated it all and made the FUD actully true. so with too much whining here he went into live journal and seems to like it there. Still tough when you have to post the real story at least 3 times like he did in that thread. Keep it real Megazone :up: PS zonereyrie=megazone


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## dgh

Justin Thyme said:


> The macrovision feature relevant to OTA, Cable, Satellite transmissions and computer representations is a different beast.


I don't know if the Showstopper distinguished these cases.


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## billbo1970

If they don't fix this in the next release... and quickly... I'll be killing my sub & switching to firefly/snapstream.

The show will automatically delete in a week?! What if you're on vacation.... you're just out of luck!? I don't care if it is a bug or not, the fact the it can happen at all just really ticks me off.


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## MickeS

> What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.
> That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.


Oh come on, we all know TiVo goes along with everything the content providers come up with. If someone would create a system where you needed to log in to a website before viewing every show, TiVo would say "Oh... well... as long as they can record it, I suppose... but this is it, no more!"

/Mike


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## gonzotek

Made it to slashdot.


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## jmoak

Oh come on, we all know TiVo is Evil! They have only allowed features that the content providers have overwhelmingly approved of, right? _Right?_

Evil, Evil Tivo.....



this _is not_ a roaring defense of tivo. it's just a sarcastic response to a kneejerk reaction.

I'll hold off on my dissing of tivo for a week to see how they react to this. Fix it and all is well. Continue to allow those who have no right to to flag material to do so and I'm out once the first program I record is affected.

Your turn Tivo.... whacha gonna do?


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## explodingboy

The FCC dropped its broadcast flag plans. Now here is helpful Tivo to pick up the slack. This "feature" is total BS. Recording TV programs for personal use is FAIR USE. The courts have clearly supported that right, and this feature prevents you from exercising that right. I'd love to see a legal challenge. And at this point, I'd live to see Tivo go down in a flaming ball of litigation!


----------



## MickeS

[q]They have only allowed features that the content providers have overwhelmingly approved of, right? Right?[/q]

Pretty much, yeah...?

I still love my TiVo. But they are the biggest corporate asskissers I've seen. 

/Mike


----------



## Trekkie

garys said:


> This issue got "boing-boinged", so expect to see if get lots of additional press. http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/13/tivo_wont_save_certa.html


now slashdotted as well. expect raving 'tivo sucks' posts shortly


----------



## kcm

I'm calling to cancel my subscription today, as I'm tired of the problems 7.x has given me with my 140- unit that TiVo felt they were too good to need to address, and now this crap. I still have SFU episodes from last season I am waiting to sit down and watch in a row - if I can't guarantee that ability, I'll do without a PVR.

Next step will be Comcast's entry in the market. We'll see how long they last before pathetically eating the proverbial gun as TiVo seems to have just done. At least the monthly cost will be half, with no upfront hardware costs, and .. DUAL TUNERS, IN HDTV, etc. et al. As in, a win-win-win situation.


----------



## naikrovek

I don't care if this is a bug or a glitch or an error or whatever, the TiVo should not support such a stupid feature. if the feature wasn't supported, no glitch would enable it by mistake.

to quote BoingBoing: "Hey, TiVo: since 1984's Betamax decision, Americans have had the right to record TV shows even if the rightsholder doesn't like the idea. That's straight from the Supreme Court's mouth."

The Supreme Court is of higher authority than any television or cable company.

I'm selling my TiVos and cancelling my subscriptions. 

Thanks a lot.


----------



## jmoak

MickeS said:


> [q]They have only allowed features that the content providers have overwhelmingly approved of, right? Right?[/q]
> 
> Pretty much, yeah...?


You agree with that, eh? Cool! In that case, I've got some land in southern florida I think you might be interested in.

Maybe a bridge, too!



_again, just for clairity:_
I'll hold off on my dissing of tivo for a week to see how they react to this. Fix it and all is well. Continue to allow those who have no right to do so to flag material for timed deletion and I'm out once the first program I record is affected.


----------



## Lord Nimon

I'm so glad I still have my S1 with lifetime. I will never, ever, give another dime to TiVo. If my S1 ever fails, I'll just build a MythTV box or something. 

I don't care if this problem a bug that's causing some shows to be marked as must-delete. This feature should never have been included in the first place. It's WRONG WRONG WRONG! I feel sorry for everyone who was suckered into buying a S2 box.


----------



## jmoak

just so I've got this straight,

You guys are slamming tivo and canceling service simply on perceived principle, not because something you've recorded has been deleted, right?

Or have all of you had stuff deleted?

What happens if in a week tivo says, Were removing this, as it is not being used in accordance with the guidelines that were relayed to us when we agreed to include this protection.

Or is it just because we all know theyre just simply evil?


----------



## sriggins

Transmission glitch, programming error, whatever, as soon as the media companies and TiVo decide I can only record something for a set term, I'm gone.

I've been a TiVo customer since oh I think 96/97?, I dunno, somewhere back then, early days  

I love my TiVo but as soon as they put this restriction on my content, I'm gone. I don't need their content. This is what media producers need to wake up to.

There is plenty of entertaining content in our neighborhoods, in our theaters and on the Internet. If they want to give me the finger, I can give it right back.

This isn't whining - I support their right to do what they want with their content - I just don't have the purchase it.

The more of us that stand up to this, the better chance we have of killing it. But if we give in and say "oh its ok, they really didn't mean for it to be used anyway" it'll come and come hard.

Stand up for your right to watch something more than once or for more than a week. We killed DiVX from Circuit City and never had billions of DVDs sitting in return bins, let's do it again.

Steve


----------



## davezatz

starbreiz said:


> Can we lock this thread so we don't get Slashdot flames?


I'd rather wait until there is a reason to lock the thread. People may or may not be misinformed and may or may not have a strong response, but so far everyone's been civil.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

we saw this whole big flap with billboard ads and people saying they were dropping TiVo and long threads ranting on about it.

so how many billboard ads have annoyed anyone lately ? anyone, anyone ?


I am thinking this will turn out to be pretty much the same thing again.


----------



## kcm

sriggins said:


> I've been a TiVo customer since oh I think 96/97?, I dunno, somewhere back then, early days


One more in your boat. I had my HDR112 for years, so I know what the trend is here. It's a downward slope, and it's only getting worse. I've been threatening to cancel for months, now, since 7.x came out and gave my unit ridiculous problems that were common among the 140- unit owners (and never fixed), and this is the last straw. TiVo changed how I watch TV in 1997, but now it's changing it again and it's not good this time.


----------



## mearlus

I have to agree here. It's amazing how people are jumping the gun here. With 'bugs' like this occuring do people really think that if they contact TivoPony or one of the other guys that they can't "untag" your shows if it was done by accident?

Especially if it's the broadcasters that are configured wrong and are sending flags.

A discussion I had with an employee that was developing the new DVR for DirecTV was talking about broadcast flags. He was even saying that their new DVR will allow DirecTV to choose how long you can keep -any- show, and limiting liability to DirecTV for sports broadcasts etc. He sounded like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, a content provider that could and would controll everything a customer recieves.

I'll stick with my Tivo thank you very much. I don't anticipate DirecTV DVR support to be as helpful and personal as we get on these boards. Seriously, how many other large companies can you send a message to someone who -can- get something fixed in a fairly quick amount of time.

"OMG the sky is falling!"

*sigh*



jmoak said:


> just so I've got this straight,
> 
> You guys are slamming tivo and canceling service simply on perceived principle, not because something you've recorded has been deleted, right?
> 
> Or have all of you had stuff deleted?
> 
> What happens if in a week tivo says, ?We?re removing this, as it is not being used in accordance with the guidelines that were relayed to us when we agreed to include this protection.?
> 
> Or is it just because we all know they?re just simply evil?


----------



## TiVoJedi

Does this update affect series 1 TiVos? Occassionally I use my turbonet in mine to extract recordings to make DVDs. I wonder if my TiVo is affected. My wife uses the TiVo more these days, so I'm out of the loop. I've been busy with my MyHD MDP-120 and Fusion 5 Lite HD cards in my PCs recording HDTV without any such restrictions. 

I think someone at TiVo needs a spanking for implementing this. I just hope series 1 TiVos are immune since there's no TiVoToGo on them anyway.


----------



## Mike Farrington

starbreiz said:


> Can we lock this thread so we don't get Slashdot flames? I'm all for debate and discussion, but it could get ugly.


Then let it get ugly. There's no need to preemtively cease an important discussion. This isn't DisneyLand.


----------



## ldconfig

To dispell two myths i read here.First as a replaytv user (a 5040 and a 5504) There is no "broadcast flag" on anything i record including hooking up a dvd player and manual recording a dvd to either replay box.Second auto comerical skip works great on my 5040 its the 55xx series where that feature was removed.I pulled the hard drives and gave away my S2 tivo this last spring when i first heard of this BS and i am very very very very happy with my replaytv boxes. 
CA and IVS rule!!!! 

--the spelling and grammar police can byte my ass  --


----------



## jmoak

sriggins said:


> Transmission glitch, programming error, whatever, as soon as the media companies and TiVo decide I can only record something for a set term, I'm gone.
> ....
> I love my TiVo but as soon as they put this restriction on my content, I'm gone. I don't need their content. This is what media producers need to wake up to.


I could not agree more! I can understand putting restrictions on what they call "high value content" (ppv's, fights...), but *not* on fta broadcast content. That's simply ludicrous.


sriggins said:


> This isn't whining - I support their right to do what they want with their content - I just don't have the purchase it.


Another agreement!!


sriggins said:


> The more of us that stand up to this, the better chance we have of killing it. But if we give in and say "oh its ok, they really didn't mean for it to be used anyway" it'll come and come hard.


If we don't see a reaction from tivo in a week, I'm on guard. Once a fta broadcast show is restricted in any way on my boxes, I'm out the door.

Remember when we were told "Tivo's not going to allow their subs to skip commercials!" and "Tivo has Pop-Ups that won't go away!"? They were either a load of crap or were shutdown and never used again.

For over five years now, tivo has "done me right".

I'm not giving in to crap. I'm not gonna start pitching stuff out the door based on speculation, either.

It's your turn Tivo.... whacha gonna do?


----------



## Vhalkyrie

I hope this is a mistake, but from the wired article and screenshots, it doesn't seem so. The only way I can vote against this is with my dollar, so the first time I see this show up on my TiVo, I'm cancelling my TiVo and cable subscriptions. I could stand to save the money anyway. 

I can either go back to recording with analog devices or create my own DVR without the restrictions. As long as I have a DRM free source, there's no way they would be able to tell whether my video is going to my TV or my computer. I was going to purchase the newer TiVo with DVD burner, but looks like I'll be spending that money on a new bike instead.


----------



## johnmacd

billbo1970 said:


> If they don't fix this in the next release... and quickly... I'll be killing my sub & switching to firefly/snapstream.
> 
> The show will automatically delete in a week?! What if you're on vacation.... you're just out of luck!? I don't care if it is a bug or not, the fact the it can happen at all just really ticks me off.


You have a sub to stop. What about people with lifetime? If you have a sub you can stop paying and send TiVo a message. Can't do that with lifetime. Also when I got my lifetime, macrovision wasnt an option. So why am I being forced to accept it? Why do I have to take the update? Shouldn't I be given the choice not to accept these new features? I should have the choice of opting out of all future releases.


----------



## rainwater

ZeoTiVo said:


> we swaw thi whole big flap with billboard ads and people saying they were dropping TiVo adn long threads ranting on about it.
> 
> so how many billboard ads have annoyed anyone lately ? anyone, anyone ?
> 
> I am thinking this will turn out to be pretty much the same thing again.


This is not even close to the same. The BB ads didn't delete my programs. TiVo can call it a glitch all they want (now I guess they are saying they are not interpreting the 'noise' correctly). However, even if it was a glitch, the fact that TiVo is now giving content holders the right to delete your programs is not going to sit well.


----------



## sstrangee

Time to get a ReplayTV.

I've been using Tivo for awhile but have looked into a ReplayTV. I think it's time to make a change.

ReplayTV here I come!


----------



## MrLint

I think that this is a legitimate gripe, and ppl are gonna be pissed. I know if i get hit by it I will stop what im doing and immediately cancel. I have no intention of paying for a service that, when i'm the customer a media organizations demands are taken over mine.

That being said. A suggestion to lock the tread is plain disingenuous, if the is going to be discussion let there be. If the thread gets locked then the message is clear that someone has made a decision on what is right and wrong and there is an official stance instead of discussion (which has occurred at this site before.)

I dont have any love for wanting to squelch relevant discussion, when the main reason is CYA


----------



## OldTimer001

I've been a TiVo subscriber for a long time and have recommended it to numerous friends and family. I don't mind copy protection for movies or any of the other stuff mentioned here. But the day my TiVo tells me that I only have X number of days to watch a recording before it is automatically deleted is the day I cancel my subscription and build a MythTV box. I sometimes go months before I watch something I have recorded - putting a time limit on any recording defeats the reason that I use a DVR.


----------



## stace

I regularly record entire seasons of a show to watch in the offseason. Luckily (heh) I'm a DirecTiVo user, so our way-behind-the-times software doesn't have this 'feature'.

However, the day they implement this for me, I stop using it. This is ridiculous.


----------



## vhold

I can't comprehend forced deletion -period-. Disabling pay-pay-view programs from functioning with Tivo To Go I think is vaguely reasonable, but what good is forcing deletion? 

Do they seriously think we are going to be made more likely to buy their season DVDs or something? Is somebody out actually there using a Tivo to perform unauthorized performances in commercial spaces, and even if they were, is it really worth smacking us all with this restriction?

I know I'm currently in the minority, but anything with overzealous DRM I just entirely stay away from. I think the people responsible for this sort of thing are completely unable to see that every single baby step they take into stricter DRM, the closer they are to going off the cliff that leads to widespread mainstream boycott.

Or more realistically I suppose, the more zealous DRM becomes, the more people completely bypass all controls and find noncommericial sources for their media.


----------



## MarcPerkel

My My My .... It appears to me that a healthy thing is finally occuring here. Just a couple of years ago such a discussion would have resulted in all the TivoHead Kool-aid drinkers bashing the original poser over his audacity to suggest that Tivo might be in anyway wrong.

Now there's a real dialogue happening here. This is very good.

Keep in mind that there are always alternatives. In many ways MythTV is now better than Tivo. multiple tuners, Digital (& HD) signal compatible, network streaming, and no MacroVision or DRM or ongoing fees, DVD ripping/Burning, etc, etc..

For those who are noticing a strange taste in their Kool-Aid lately check out http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html
or
http://www.mythtv.org

Of if you want to see a video on setting up a MythTV install get this file:

http://videos.revision3.com/systm/0002/systm--0002--mythtv--large.wmv


----------



## briguymaine

jmoak said:


> There's no way in heck that these shows can be considered "higher-value content".


DVD "Complete Season" sales could be driving this. Those DVD compilations are HUGE sellers for the owners of those shows.

Or it could be a mistake...


----------



## rainwater

briguymaine said:


> DVD "Complete Season" sales could be driving this. Those DVD compilations are HUGE sellers for the owners of those shows.
> 
> Or it could be a mistake...


It's not a mistake that TiVo added this feature. However, why would they agree to forced deletion is beyond me. I can understand disabling TTG but forced deletion is ridiculous. What's the point of having a TiVo if you can't leave it for a while and come back and watch the shows you wanted to watch?


----------



## mondoz

johnmacd said:


> You have a sub to stop. What about people with lifetime? If you have a sub you can stop paying and send TiVo a message. Can do that with lifetime. Also when I got my lifetime, macrovision wasnt an option. So why am I being forced to accept it? Why do I have to take the update? Shouldn't I be given the choice not to accept these new features? I should have the choice of opting out of all future releases.


I totally agree.
Why is a lifetime subscription member's voice completely muted?

I don't recall, but is there something about this in the original TOS? Anything about 'you can save shows as long as you want* *subject to change without notice' ?

That smells a bit like a bait and switch to me. Even if this is just a glitch, and the shows mentioned in this thread aren't typically subject to this type of auto-deletion, having the mechanism in place allows content providers to auto-delete whatever they feel like, then beg forgiveness later.

Their interview says they want this so they can provide services like TiVo to go and such, but what about those who don't want any of that? I'd like a version of the OS that doesn't provide this auto-delete 'upgrade' please. Thanks.


----------



## moxley

This is ridiculous. First they try to cripple stuff I transfer to my PC using Tivo-to-Go (i haven't updated mine yet but I will soon) to prevent me from removing the stupid TIVO wrapper from the stuff I am going to burn on DVD (that's easily fixed) and now this? 

I just built a kick ass media center PC. I may cancel my tivo service if this stuff starts giving me problems. 

Tivo is supposed to be ALL ABOUT give you control, so you can watch what you want WHEN you want to. They have shown time and time again that they will betray their users and take more and more control away from them to appease the big media media conglomerates ignorant concerns about content protection. 

THis is classic fear based approach (see the current US administration for reference) - because a small amount of people may do something that they don't agree with or consider abusive - they decide to punish or limit everybody. WTF? 

There will always be people who will hack and do whatever. These people are innovators, the early adopters, the ones who help promote these new technologies. 

Keep it up Tivo. You'll lose everything that makes Tivo worth having. And once the techies are gone to something new and less crippled, eventually the moms and pops will follow.


----------



## mearlus

I agree with this. I can see a point to not allow PPV etc to be transfered off of a tivo to a computer for copy protection purposes (Although I don't like it as I'd like to watch all of my content on any of my devices). I do not agree with not allowing the end user to "Save" the recording indefinately on the DVR.

With our busy schedules and the rediculous amount of shows we want to watch, we have almost entire seasons saved on our Tivo for when we have downtime to watch them. (Case in point, we have 14 episodes of ER to watch from last season still ) The whole point of us getting a Tivo (Now we actually have 2) is so we didn't have to have a stack of 15 VHS tapes with shows to watch.

The only reason I can fathom a 'time limit' would be set on how long you can save a show is to force the purchase of DVD seasons. Most newer shows don't replay the new episodes, and if they do it is just before the next season starts.



OldTimer001 said:


> I've been a TiVo subscriber for a long time and have recommended it to numerous friends and family. I don't mind copy protection for movies or any of the other stuff mentioned here. But the day my TiVo tells me that I only have X number of days to watch a recording before it is automatically deleted is the day I cancel my subscription and build a MythTV box. I sometimes go months before I watch something I have recorded - putting a time limit on any recording defeats the reason that I use a DVR.


----------



## dgh

johnmacd said:


> You have a sub to stop. What about people with lifetime? If you have a sub you can stop paying and send TiVo a message. Can do that with lifetime. Also when I got my lifetime, macrovision wasnt an option. So why am I being forced to accept it? Why do I have to take the update? Shouldn't I be given the choice not to accept these new features? I should have the choice of opting out of all future releases.


You should have read the agreement before signing up for lifetime.

But cheer up! When you typed (typo'd??) "Can do that with lifetime." you were right! Lifetime can be resold today for a substantial portion of what you paid - some people have actually made a profit - so if you want to go, you can and your equivalent monthly TiVo service fee comes out pretty close to zero. Lifetime is a heck of a deal compared to monthly in any case.


----------



## johnmacd

mondoz said:


> I totally agree.
> Why is a lifetime subscription member's voice completely muted?
> 
> I don't recall, but is there something about this in the original TOS? Anything about 'you can save shows as long as you want* *subject to change without notice' ?
> 
> That smells a bit like a bait and switch to me.


Not sure if its bait and switch, but I agree that its not what we signed up for. Being a lifetime subscriber one should be given one of two choices-depending on how TiVo decides to do it:

if TiVo continues to force lifetime subs to accept new releases, then one of two things should happen:
A-you accept the upgrade and continue to get guide data
or
B-you dont accept and you have the option to get all you lifetime sub money back, (no-prorating of the monthy fees)
or
What I would like to see: 
C- You can stop getting upgrades and have the one time option of downgrading to any version that may have been on your machine at one time. You can still get guide data. And at any time you have the option of accepting this new Macrovision DRM'd upgrade if you so choose to accept it. But then no going back to non DRM'd.


----------



## dt_dc

sstrangee said:


> Time to get a ReplayTV.
> 
> I've been using Tivo for awhile but have looked into a ReplayTV. I think it's time to make a change.
> 
> ReplayTV here I come!


It should be noted that according to various articles (for example: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2202498&&#post2202498 ) ReplayTV, Microsoft (MCE), and various other DVR manufacturers have signed the exact same Macrovision license agreement for respecting expiration trigger bits.


----------



## rainwater

dt_dc said:


> It should be noted that according to various articles (for example: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2202498&&#post2202498 ) ReplayTV, Microsoft (MCE), and various other DVR manufacturers have signed the exact same Macrovision license agreement for respecting expiration trigger bits.


It's not about signing an agreement. It's about how its implemented.


----------



## kcm

rainwater said:


> It's not about signing an agreement. It's about how its implemented.


Yup. I don't trust TiVo any more, given their recent past. That's why I just cancelled.


----------



## Justin Thyme

People are looking for a bogeyman here- And no wonder. No one likes some outside entity to reach into their homes and tell them what to do.

But I am convinced people just want to post rants and have no interest in reading or attempting to figure out what is going on.

Ever wonder why it is we don't see any CE companies producing a machine that will ignore macrovision and dub a DVD to another DVD or to VHS tape? Is it because the CE companies in China are in collusion with Hollywood? Guess again.

It is because you have to have a license (a CSS license) for the technology to read any DVD. If you agree to that license, you also have to agree to get a Macrovision license. The quoted correspondence from the president and the CTO of Macrovision confirms this fact.

Tivo thinks that the public needs Tivos with features common in other CE devices. Those features (like DVD playback and recording) require participation in the network of interlocking agreements that legally prevent CE companies to offer many features that large numbers of consumers want.

If you look at the following letter, you will see that Macrovision is not exactly the puppetmaster everyone makes them out to be. They are in a squeeze between the demands of CE manufacturers that can't build product until specifications are release, and between the studios, who don't want to agree to release content that will play on those devices until they are assured that they aren't going to be ripped off egregiously. If Macrovision doesn't create products the studios are pleased with, there are plenty of competitors ready to step up with even more draconian schemes.

The studios aren't nuts either- they know a lot of copying is going on and they will never prevent it all- yet they are of the opinion that it is a poor business model to go to the work of providing Arabic subtitles for "Field of Dreams" and then selling only one copy. That's pretty much what is happening now. The studios aren't evil either. They are spreading glimpses of America to the world. They just want to see some constraints on this kind of widespread rip off.

But since we are analysing this in very raw selfish terms, notice that the studios are a major positive contributor to our balance of trade. Ever notice that America has a dwindling number of exports? That means fewer dollars in our paycheck.

So they put these suitcase locks on the content to slow down rampant copying. Fine. Several notes back I gave pointers to products that can easily defeat them. Don't want to pay for one at Compusa. Fine buy one for $25 on ebay. Or look up circuits on the net that allow you to read VBI closed caption information. It is much easier to nuke than it is to read. I figure about 2 bucks in parts and you are good to go. So even the video anarchists really have no practical impediment to them and this is just religious bellyaching about the "principle" of the whole thing.

Have your cake and eat it too.

There are some who will decline over principle. Well great- everyone from the studios to the anarchists have their 20 and 30 somethings ready to burn down the world for the sake of their idiotic jihads over "principle" while the rest of us could care less. We just want to be able to watch video the way we want to watch it. And we are willing to pay a fair price too.

So everyone just needs to stop hyperventilating.

The following is an email chain apparently sent by the president of Macrovision to an institutional investor. Although the particular issue of PAL standards is of no interest here, the correspondense provides many some interesting facts on how arrangements work. For example, it mentions the link that CSS licenses require a macrovision license. Lifted from site: http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17587


Bill Krepick said:


> From everything I have read previously, it was alluded that the delay in PAL Progressive was due to the "lack of agreed copy protection standard", with the finger pointed at macrovision for not having this ready.
> 
> On Friday, I had the opportunity to meet with the President of Macrovision, and I asked him for his thoughts on this matter.
> 
> He didn`t think it was them , but said he would check with his chief engineer.True to his word, this morning I received the following answer.....
> 
> Subject: RE: Macrovision Encoding for 625p Waveforms
> 
> Dear Steven-
> re our conversation on Friday about whether Macrovision is responsible for the delay in the launch of 625p (PAL progressive scan) CE devices, please see the response below from Peter Wonfor who is our Director of Technical Support for our Video Technology division.* Please let me know if you have any additional questions.* Also- if you have a minute, perhaps you could let me know more specifically where the query came from?
> 
> Thanks
> Bill
> 
> Bill Krepick
> President/COO
> Macrovision Corp.
> 1341 Orleans Drive
> Sunnyvale, CA* 94089
> tel* 408.743.8420
> fax* 408.743.8610
> e-mail: [email protected]
> 
> *-----Original Message-----
> From: * Peter Wonfor*
> Sent:** Friday, May 18, 2001 5:31 PM
> To:**** Bill Krepick
> Cc:**** Carol Flaherty
> Subject:******* Macrovision Encoding for 625p Waveforms
> Importance:**** High
> 
> Hi Bill:
> 
> I understand that one of our intitutional investors has heard comments from either the studios or the hardware manufacturers that Macrovision is holding up the introduction of 625p (Progressive Scan) outputs on DVD players.* I find this extraordinarily surprising, and feel that there must be a misperception somewhere.* Since the procedure to adopt a new output signal standard is not as simple as might reasonably be imagined, I hope the following brief summary of the status of 625p copy protection, and what needs to be done to permit its introduction will help to explain this.
> 
> 1. Macrovision has provided a timely proposal for a Macrovision-encoded 625p copy protection waveform in response to requests from a number of CE hardware/device companies and IC manufacturers.* For the same technical reasons that applied in the case of 525p copy protection, the proposed 625p copy protection waveform can not be field tested by Macrovision since there are no (or insufficient) pre-existing 625p capable display products deployed in the market on which to perform compatibility tests.
> 
> Macrovision has contacted the Studios directly to let them know that Macrovision is prepared to support 625p copy protection encoding and that the proposed Macrovision encoded waveform definition is available.
> 
> 2. The only entities that can approve the use of 625p outputs on DVD players are the rights holders (studios).* Once the studios have endorsed the concept of having Macrovision copy protection on the 625p outputs, a modification to *the CSS license agreement would be required, since this is linked to the requirement for a Macrovision license and to implementing copy protection on analog video outputs.**
> 
> 3. To expedite the introduction of DVD players with 625p outputs, those with the primary interest in achieving this objective need to make representation to the studios, since the studios are the onces to decide whether 625p copy protection using Macrovision's technology is satisfactory.* By presenting its 625p copy protection waveform specification proposal to the CPTWG (Copy Protection Technical Working Group) Macrovision has made this information available to a wide relevant audience that included representatives of the studios, hardware companies, IC manufacturers, and representatives of the DVD Forum and DVD-CCA (i.e., CSS Licensing entity) organizations.* Macrovision cannot unilaterally approve and release a 625p Macrovision waveform definition for the same reasons as were applicable in the case of 525p.
> 
> 4. Display manufacturers have a specific interest in any new waveform that their products are expected to be compatible with.* Macrovision has responded to all such manufacturers requesting information, and has proactively contacted other CE manufacturers in an attempt to make sure that the proposed 625p Macrovision encoding will be compatible with 625p display products that come on to the market.
> 
> 5. Since no additional license fees or costs will be charged by Macrovision for 625p Macrovision encoding (it will be included in the existing 525p specifications and agreement documents upon approval by the Studios and DVD authorities) there is no delay to the adoption of 625p as a result of cost considerations.
> 
> I would be very interested to find out how the impression arose that we were responsible for holding up implementation of 625Progressive Scan devices.* Macrovision has no interest in delaying the launch of 625p-capable products; Macrovision's objective is to support the Studios in providing the best possible copy protection for any analog video signal format with which its technology is compatible.* This would hardly be achieved by deliberately delaying the introduction of products with 625p Macrovision-encoded outputs.
> 
> I hope this is helpful.* Please let me know if you have any comments or questions.
> 
> Any thoughts folks !!


----------



## ldconfig

There is NOT any DRM on my two replaytv units!!!!!!!


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## MickeS

jmoak, which documented features does TiVo have that are not approved by content providers?


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## Justin Thyme

Give me a break. Tivo to Go for one. For cripesake- have you gotten a clue that you can torrent a show to your computer then play it on your Tivo? 

You think the studios like that little arrangement? Of course not. Tivo didn't build it for that purpose, and they do not condone of its use that way, but they have provided you a very powerful product and cheap product that allows you to do that.

None of the studios want to see copying from DVRs to computers because they fear there are no further barriers to seeing it go out via BitTorrent to everyone. Then it becomes a much more difficult to manage problem.

It scares the bejebahs out of them, because once it is out of the familiar control environment they have in the CE world, they think they will see their sales get halved, quartered, or worse.


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## MickeS

> Ever notice that America has a dwindling number of exports? That means fewer dollars in our paycheck.


Wow, you convinced me! Thanks, TiVo! By forcing me to watch a show within 7 days after it was recorded, you help me to contribute to an improved US trade balance. If I hadn't checked this thread I would never have known!



> Give me a break. Tivo to Go for one. For cripesake- have you gotten a clue that you can torrent a show to your computer then play it on your Tivo?


What about TTG did content providers not agree with? The negotiations before it was released were long and hard in order to please them. If they (specifically the NFL, IIRC) had not agreed, it would not have happened. So tell me again, which documented feature of TiVo is not approved by content providers?

/Mike


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## jmoak

MickeS said:


> jmoak, which documented features does TiVo have that are not approved by content providers?


_quickly, here's two:_

FCC ignores MPAA, NFL; OKs new TiVo feature

TiVo experiments with Internet download service


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## Dan203

ldconfig said:


> There is NOT any DRM on my two replaytv units!!!!!!!


That's because the software on your ReplayTV has not been updated in years. Series 1 TiVos don't have DRM either. ReplayTV signed the same contract TiVo did. When/IF they ever decide to upgrade the software again you too will have this new "feature". Microsoft also signed the deal, which means the next version of MCE will have it as well.

My biggest problem with this "feature" is it's blind compliance. It's illegal for broadcast programming sent over public airwaves to contain copy protection, so why not design the software to ignore these "glitches" on channels that are known to come from those channels? I'm sure their data provider could supply them with the information necessary to make that happen. Or they could just do something generic like look at the call letters and see if they're 4 digits and start with a K or W, or ignore protection on channels 2-13. Anything to prevent this from applying to programs where it's legally not suppose to be applied.

Dan


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## Justin Thyme

MickeS said:


> So tell me again, which documented feature of TiVo is not approved by content providers?
> 
> /Mike


Maybe I was confused by the semantics. I thought you had a beef with jmoak's comment because you were under the mistaken notion that the studios approve of what Tivo is doing, which they most certainly do not. So what else do you mean? Formal approval? Fine.

Show me the document, or any reference to a document where the studios gave their approval for TTG.

Uh huh. They would never do such a thing. Maybe the best any CE company in this position could expect is to get a gentleman's agreement from the MPAA not to file suit immediately.

Tivo pushed the content owners as far as they could prudently go at that juncture.

Tivo is pushing the envelope for mainstream users, not Myth, and certainly not Microsoft.


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## ldconfig

It was updated to 440 a couple of months ago Dan203.


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## mearlus

On a side note about the content flag. If a single episode of a show is flagged and it is in a group of episodes will the group folder icon show a flag on it? I'm wondering if new episodes of a show that suddenly/accidently get flagged will show up as being flagged without actually having to go inside of the group.

Does anyone have any shows that are flagged and are in a group that could shed light on this?

Thanks


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## ZeoTiVo

rainwater said:


> This is not even close to the same. The BB ads didn't delete my programs. TiVo can call it a glitch all they want (now I guess they are saying they are not interpreting the 'noise' correctly). However, even if it was a glitch, the fact that TiVo is now giving content holders the right to delete your programs is not going to sit well.


TiVo is not *giving* content holders the right to delete content. they are working within a macrovision license that enforces rights the content holder hasa valid claim to. Only a court with another fair use case can give or take away rights or Congress with a law.

the flags seen in this thread are not rights the content owner or broadcaster had. That is why it is a glitch, mistake, whatever and the broadcaster needs to fix it. Some are kneejerking like they are going home to find red flags all over their TiVo. this won't be the case.

now if you want HBO or PPV or whatever they have a license *with you* when you purchase the content. They are making sure , via macrovison, that the DVR you use enforces those contracts/licenses or else they will start legal action against that DVR maker, like what happened with replayTV on commercial skip and internet file sharing.

the problem is that HBO and others have a legal right to enforce their contract/license and if TiVo  resists that it faces large legal hassles from a much larger entity. ON the other hand TiVo has this problem of enforcing macrovision but getting errent signals from boradcasters that do not have a legally binding contract/license but the software can not tell the difference.


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## dgh

Dan203 said:


> My biggest problem with this "feature" is it's blind compliance. It's illegal for broadcast programming sent over public airwaves to contain copy protection, so why not design the software to ignore these "glitches" on channels that are known to come from those channels?.


Good idea but people are always hacking up configurations where a TiVo is told it has one source when it really has something else connected to the same input, so any such distinction can't be made on anything TiVo merely believes, based on the user's claims, to be the source. Of course anything can be overridden with enough effort but if TiVo only looks at it's alleged lineup for something like this, that just seems too easy to me.


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## Dan203

ldconfig said:


> It was updated to 440 a couple of months ago Dan203.


I did not know that. Was this a feature update? Or a simple bug fix? The contract may stipulate that they only have to integrate this "feature" in major feature upgrade versions. Or maybe ReplayTV found some way arround it?

Dan


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## Dan203

dgh said:


> Good idea but people are always hacking up configurations where a TiVo is told it has one source when it really has something else connected to the same input, so any such distinction can't be made on anything TiVo merely believes, based on the user's claims, to be the source. Of course anything can be overridden with enough effort but if TiVo only looks at it's alleged lineup for something like this, that just seems too easy to me.


But those sorts of workarounds are no different then someone using a VBI stripper or "video stabilizer" to remove the Macrovision in the first place. They're not common knowledge and would not likely be used by the masses.

Dan


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## dgh

Dan203 said:


> But those sorts of workarounds are no different then someone using a VBI stripper or "video stabilizer" to remove the Macrovision in the first place. They're not common knowledge and would not likely be used by the masses.


I think picking something different on a TiVo menu is a whole different class of easiness then adding an additional gadget myself, but I guess the lawyers can argue that.

I mean, in the help forum, we sometimes have trouble convincing people to invest in an A/V switch when they run out of inputs.


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## Justin Thyme

dgh said:


> Good idea but people are always hacking up configurations where a TiVo is told it has one source when it really has something else connected to the same input, so any such distinction can't be made on anything TiVo merely believes, based on the user's claims, to be the source. Of course anything can be overridden with enough effort but if TiVo only looks at it's alleged lineup for something like this, that just seems too easy to me.


Aren't their larger issues than that? What if Tivo misidentifies a channel as being inelligible for using the flags and strips them? Seems to me they would be liable for damages from every content owner whose property was affected.

It would be an effective way to kill a CE company from the death of a thousand cuts.


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## ZeoTiVo

Justin Thyme said:


> Aren't their larger issues than that? What if Tivo misidentifies a channel as being inelligible for using the flags and strips them? Seems to me they would be liable for damages from every content owner whose property was affected.
> 
> It would be an effective way to kill a CE company from the death of a thousand cuts.


true - but right now TiVo is getting hurt with the death of a hundred cuts as different broadcasters keep turning up with this glitch. At some point TiVo has to do something to stave it off if getting the broadcasters to fix their end fails to get results.

the bottom line is indeed that we do not see limits on shows that should not have limits. I would be upset if a flag popped up on RockStar:INXS as my wife and I watch it and like to go back and watch the older performances off the PC. Also have American Idol on the PC that the kids like to watch. I pull the 4400 onto my smartphone to watch at lunchtime, etc...

so TiVo gets to do a fire drill and find out what is going on with these errent flags. Hope someone orders them a pizza


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## Popasmurf

This thread has now been slashdotted! http://slashdot.org/articles/05/09/14/1440252.shtml?tid=129


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## Y-ASK

ZeoTiVo said:


> true - but right now TiVo is getting hurt with the death of a hundred cuts as different broadcasters keep turning up with this glitch. At some point TiVo has to do something to stave it off if getting the broadcasters to fix their end fails to get results.


Tivo should have never released control to begin with. To me that is the biggest "crime" of all.  They released control to the boardcasters for those stupid popup advertisements and now they've released control again with this macrovision crap. The worst part about it is that they were not required to implement the macrovision flags. Glad I still have my two series 1 Tivos and a nice Snapstream Beyond TV setup.

Y-ASK


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## ZeoTiVo

Popasmurf said:


> This thread has now been slashdotted! http://slashdot.org/articles/05/09/14/1440252.shtml?tid=129


a real insightful thread they have going there


> I want content providers to copywrite my colonoscopy movie and licence it back to me.


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## ZeoTiVo

Y-ASK said:


> Tivo should have never released control to begin with. To me that is the biggest "crime" of all. They released control to the boardcasters for those stupid popup advertisements and now they've released control again with this macrovision crap. The worst part about it is that they were not required to implement the macrovision flags. Glad I still have my two series 1 Tivos and a nice Snapstream Beyond TV setup.
> 
> Y-ASK


the new business world is all about interlocking relationships. MythTV is an island of a very good open source DVR but it has no busienss relationships and thus lnaguishes behind MCE that has business relationships.

either TiVo gets into these interlocking relationships or dies out.


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## ldconfig

Dan203 all it did was remove CA and IVS on 55xx series that were running a 50xx image.And a guide update.


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## jmoak

Y-ASK said:


> They released control to the boardcasters for those stupid popup advertisements and now they've released control again with this macrovision crap.


Tivo "took back" that control and we have never seen the "big block in the middle of the screen" that covered ALL comercials and programming again.

I'm hoping tivo does that one more time.


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## gonzotek

Y-ASK said:


> Tivo should have never released control to begin with. To me that is the biggest "crime" of all. They released control to the boardcasters for those stupid popup advertisements and now they've released control again with this macrovision crap. The worst part about it is that they were not required to implement the macrovision flags. Glad I still have my two series 1 Tivos and a nice Snapstream Beyond TV setup.
> 
> Y-ASK


Actually, TiVo is in control of the popups. The popup graphic must be loaded by the TiVo mothership to your personal TiVo unit before a commercial can trigger the display of it. If a broadcaster or content provider were improperly using them (showing them on top of West Wing or ER, or running a coke popup over a pepsi ad), TiVo could (and in all likelyhood would for both business and legal reasons) terminate that ad the next time your unit calls home.


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## mdbelt

Well I was originally irritated when I learned new software versions for series 1 tivo's aren't happening, but now it may be a blessing in disguise. I'll just sit back with my old SAT-T60 & keep these recordings as long as I want. I think hell would have to freeze over for DirecTV to pay up & upgrade the DirecTiVo series 1 anymore.

Michael


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## Justin Thyme

Heck series 2 users aren't out in the cold. Anyone can pay pvrupgrade to hack their boxes. The owner can have it done to a machine imaged with a pre 7.2 system and then turn off updates. 

Or they can do it themselves if they have the motivation.

Or they can buy a $25 buck box to strip the flag off of an analog signal. Personally, that one makes more sense to me- I like TivoBack watching my terabyte server's jukebox of hundreds of archived shows. 

Lots of workarounds.


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## Y-ASK

gonzotek said:


> Actually, TiVo is in control of the popups. The popup graphic must be loaded by the TiVo mothership to your personal TiVo unit before a commercial can trigger the display of it.


Actually we are both correct! Tivo controls the fact that an image must be downloaded to the box but the advertiser is in control of the size and placement of the Ad. That was one of the problems with the Large Ad that showed up a few months ago. And the Tivo gets the size and placement information from the Advertiser.


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## Y-ASK

jmoak said:


> Tivo "took back" that control and we have never seen the "big block in the middle of the screen" that covered ALL comercials and programming again.
> 
> I'm hoping tivo does that one more time.


Are you sure they took back that control? Could be that we just haven't seen any screwups lately. The way the Tivo Reps. described the issue they really did not take away anything. They just fixed the size of the Ad for that one screwup.

Y-ASK


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## wevets

This is not "broadcast flag". BF only applies to digital content and as over-the-air, this can't be it. There are ways of marking analog TV, notable CGMS-A, which sets a bit in line 21 in the vertical interval, which is coming into wider use. That's probalby how this content was marked. CGMS-A can be used as a queue to turn on Macrovision when the content is output on analog lines.

BF as mandated by the FCC was invalidated by the courts as an overstepping of FCC authority. What it mandated, in addition to how digital television should be marked was that vendors of consumer TV equipment must watch for the BF and protect the content if the BF was present. (And that digital content be protected regardless until the presence, or not, of the BF was determined.) It was invalidated because the FCC does not have authority to tell the CE vendors how to build equipment. Congress is, however, free to ligislate it if it wants.


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## TiVoPony

Just to re-iterate the request Stephen and I have each made here:

If you're seeing this on ordinary broadcast channels please send either of us a PM with your TSN and any information regarding the source - whether it's cable or not, which channel, which shows, etc.

We have yet to hear anything from the original poster, and would appreciate the opportunity to investigate what he's seeing in more detail than what has been posted here. Please drop us a PM.

Thanks,
Pony


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## Lord Nimon

Justin Thyme said:


> Or they can buy a $25 buck box to strip the flag off of an analog signal.


Can you tell me more about this device? Is there a Google search term I can use to find more info?


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## jmoak

Y-ASK said:


> Are you sure they took back that control? Could be that we just haven't seen any screwups lately.


Have you seen any ads like that anymore? Control or not, it looks like they "fixed" it.


Y-ASK said:


> They just fixed the size of the Ad for that one screwup.


I'm hoping they "fix" this "screwup", too.


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## gonzotek

Y-ASK said:


> Are you sure they took back that control? Could be that we just haven't seen any screwups lately. The way the Tivo Reps. described the issue they really did not take away anything. They just fixed the size of the Ad for that one screwup.
> 
> Y-ASK


I beleive it was only the Interpreter ad that was centered onscreen and large. It was also an initial large-scale test run of the 'feature', and obviously it had problems (not dissappearing, too large for most people, etc.). TiVo definitely was in control of the use of it, because once the non-disappearing bug came to light, they downloaded a graphic of 100% transparency to the TiVo boxes to forcefully disable the popup.

Found the quote:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2729692&&#post2729692


TiVoBill said:


> Based on reports that the Fast Forward Tag for The Interpreter was displaying in places other than over the commercial for that movie, we have published a new version of that tag that is fully transparent (invisible). You can force a connection to the TiVo Service to download the updated tag. This will cause the errant tags to "disappear" from previously recorded programs as well as any future broadcasts that include that tag. We will not use any other tags until we are confident that they will display correctly.
> 
> We apologize for the confusion and inconvenience that this caused some customers. As I noted earlier in the thread, the tags are designed to be displayed only over a commercial, and only over a commercial for the product include in the tag. Additional information about these tags can be found in this article on our support site.


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## Y-ASK

gonzotek said:


> I beleive it was only the Interpreter ad that was centered onscreen and large... TiVo definitely was in control of the use of it


Not to be disagreeable but Tivo was not in control. If they were in control, the screwup would have never happened. They took control back by downloading the new "invisible" image. If you go back and read through the entire thread you should see where some of the Tivo folks talk in detail about the how the image is displayed. But really that's for another thread. The problem now is similar in the fact that Tivo has implemented a way for broadcasters to control your Tivo, or should I say the content being recorded on your Tivo. That's all just a simple comparision. When you give up control this is the kind of thing you can expect. Nobody is perfect but Macrovision on my Tivo is another bad idea...

Y-ASK


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## ZeoTiVo

Y-ASK said:


> The problem now is similar in the fact that Tivo has implemented a way for broadcasters to control your Tivo, or should I say the content being recorded on your Tivo. That's all just a simple comparision. When you give up control this is the kind of thing you can expect. Nobody is perfect but Macrovision on my Tivo is another bad idea...
> 
> Y-ASK


TiVo has not implemented a way for _broadcasters_ to control the TiVo. That would be illegal on the broadcasters part.
this is why TiVoPony and TiVoOpsMgr are asking people who see the red flags to contact them so TiVo inc. can follow up on the cause of this "most likely a glitch and not deliberate but definitely illegal if the bits are being set" problem. They need the detailed info to do a root cause analysis and make this go away.

if you see the flags on HBO or a PPV then go ahead and contact them as well. Probably a good idea to get some working correctly data points to work with as well.


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## Justin Thyme

Lord Nimon said:


> Can you tell me more about this device? Is there a Google search term I can use to find more info?


I'd be happy to. I noted them way back in note 46 before PVRBlog and the rest of the yahoos joined the party.

Much ado about nothing. It's no different than making backups software or dvd copying. It's simple to do.

As Dan correctly pointed out, these devices are set up to work with SVideo, Composite, or Component connections. If you are connected through some set top box that provides your Tivo signal, you just introduce the box between it and your Tivo. But if you are directly connecting to an antennae or analog cable, then you are going to need a decoder box.

The CGMS filter aka Logic Design filter aka Zorilla filter personally looks much more appealing to me, since it doesn't muck with the video portion of the signal. Many people don't see much of a difference, but whatever- you have an additional choice. Also the CGMS filter doesn't work for certain devices that not only check for the flags (both cgms and macrovision), but also check for evidence of Macrovision signals (color burst phase shifting and AGC fake out pulses). I think if you read the AVSforums thread I pointed to, it was a panasonic dvr that did that. Others here appear to me to have indicated that replay showstopper checked for not just the bits but this macrovision pollution. 








The Sima CT-2 available at amazon, Best Buy Compusa, Ebay...









*Logic Design "Zorilla" filter. * 
Superior though more pricey CGMS controller- it is designed to set the signal, but you can use it to turn it off too. May or may not work for tivo users with all set top boxes.
http://home.cfl.rr.com/filter/​
As someone earlier I think maybe rainwater pointed out, it matters how Tivo implemented the restrictions that they are contractually obligated to obey. I don't know what the contract says, but even if Tivo is required to both look at the flags and check for the macrovision color bursting, it won't matter. As Logic Design commented, his thing only cleans up the agc and cgms stuff. Big deal. Get the Sima CT-2 or any of the taiwanese lookalikes and nuke all the macrovision crap out of the signal.

Game over.

But the Studios will probably go many more rounds.

I think the main thing is we need to keep demanding the CE manufacturers produce for us DVRs capable of handling analog signals. Once you go all dgitial- especially two way cablecards- it will get really nasty trying to workaround.


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## spankspank

TiVoPony said:


> We have yet to hear anything from the original poster, and would appreciate the opportunity to investigate what he's seeing in more detail than what has been posted here.


Maybe the original poster is hoaxing. He could have put the filter box justin sited (set to copy once) to create this senario on his Tivo.


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## davezatz

spankspank said:


> Maybe the original poster is hoaxing. He could have put the filter box justin sited (set to copy once) to create this senario on his Tivo.


Well the bug has been reported before... so it's possible he noticed it and went about recreating the scenario. Perhaps he works for a competitor. Wouldn't that be a hoot! Well maybe not... more like a lawsuit.


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## k6ef

I think we should all ditch our units, send them back to TiVo!

There are other choices out there for PVRs these days, including your own PC with MythTV on it. TiVo has become the next Microsoft. 

I called TiVo earlier today and requested that they remove the software update from my Tivo since I had not agreed to the change. (You don't get the choice of upgrading or not) They told me that they could not do it. So basically you're stuck paying for a service that you could get for free on less than wonderful equipent that now tells you that you can't keep programs longer than a couple of weeks. I don't know about all of you, but I don't always get a chance to watch a recorded program for quite some time since I travel. Which is the precise reason I got the TiVo in the first place. Now its become nearly useless to me. 

The sad thing about all of this, is they didn't have to do it. The FCC and courts haven't okd the Broadcast Flag, so manufacturers don't have to abide by it. So TiVo has implemented something on the Broadcasters orders w/o considering its own users.

What a piece of crap company. I will NEVER support them EVER again. 

Im not totally shocked after they told Mac users that they would support them and just whimsically decided to dump them..


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## ZeoTiVo

k6ef said:


> I think we should all ditch our units, send them back to TiVo!
> 
> There are other choices out there for PVRs these days, including your own PC with MythTV on it. TiVo has become the next Microsoft.
> 
> I called TiVo earlier today and requested that they remove the software update from my Tivo since I had not agreed to the change. (You don't get the choice of upgrading or not)


 you agreed to it in the Terms of Service.



> They told me that they could not do it. So basically you're stuck paying for a service that you could get for free on less than wonderful equipent that now tells you that you can't keep programs longer than a couple of weeks. I don't know about all of you, but I don't always get a chance to watch a recorded program for quite some time since I travel. Which is the precise reason I got the TiVo in the first place. Now its become nearly useless to me.


 so how many red flags are on your TiVo shows ?



> The sad thing about all of this, is they didn't have to do it. The FCC and courts haven't okd the Broadcast Flag, so manufacturers don't have to abide by it. So TiVo has implemented something on the Broadcasters orders w/o considering its own users.


 this is not the broadcast flag but the macrovision license that has been discussed in detail in this very thread. oh and BTW the broadcasters are only supposed to send the bits properly. it is the content providers like viacomm that have a license with you as you purchase content from them that TiVo must also abide by as you record that content or face legal action.



> What a piece of crap company. I will NEVER support them EVER again.
> 
> Im not totally shocked after they told Mac users that they would support them and just whimsically decided to dump them..


what a kneejerk reaction


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## davezatz

ZeoTiVo said:


> what a kneejerk reaction


Yours or his? He obviously read the article on slashdot and came here to get a reaction out of you... it is his first post.


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## devious507

Tivo corp, listen closely, I LOVE my Tivo, but if the BS EVER causes me to miss something I wanted to see I'm DONE, I understand there is a seriously cool implementation of MythTV in a Knoppix live CD that I can put together for a few hundred bucks in hardware, and you can kiss my monthly subscription and any future hardware purchases I may make goodbye.

I am sick to death of companys treating me like I'm some kind of criminal. By honoring these flags you are enabling the content providers to do just that, this makes you as guilty as those numbskulls who thought it was a good idea in the first place.

I can and will do it myself to get around these types of restrictions.


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## happierr

I had it block out Foxes King of the Hill

That is not HBO or PPV....

Tivo has screwed me, I am going to cancle and just build a PC for it.


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## dmwelker

This doesn't bother/worry me as much as it does some people. I only hope they give me enough advanced notice that I have time to watch it before it's deleted.

I also am concerned about whether this can happen to a show I've already changed to "Keep Until I Delete" or will I know this can happen as soon as a show is recorded and I try to change the "Keep Until..." time?


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## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> Yours or his? He obviously read the article on slashdot and came here to get a reaction out of you... it is his first post.


just the usual making sure the BS gets countered so the FUD loses some of its errr.. FUD. besides I liked his use of "whimsically" bonus points for creative touch

hey happierr - if this really happened to you and if it is FOX then contact TiVoPony and let him no which local provider you have and your TSN. otherwise the FUD above was much better

dmwelker - the flag shows up right away


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## rainwater

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo has not implemented a way for _broadcasters_ to control the TiVo. That would be illegal on the broadcasters part.


But yet it is still happening. Whether its an error on the broadcasters fault, intentional or not, or whether TiVo just isn't reading the data correctly, it still is affecting users. Deleting shows automatically by accident is a huge bug. Not a slightly annoying issue, but a huge bug. Although I am going to venture a guess and say that these "glitches' will continue to happen and whether its TiVo's fault or not, it is going to upset users immensely.


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## Justin Thyme

Did anyone check out the traffic for this thread? 41K reads. Nearly all of that in the last 2 days. No wonder TCF is going a little slow.


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## TiVoPony

happierr said:


> I had it block out Foxes King of the Hill
> 
> That is not HBO or PPV....
> 
> Tivo has screwed me, I am going to cancle and just build a PC for it.


Sorry if you've run into this, but do please send me a PM with your TSN and any available information regarding the broadcast. Things such as:

Was it from cable, antenna, or satellite?
One channel or multiple channels?
One program or multiple programs?
Which specific station (call sign)?

This sort of detail can be very helpful in understanding where the issue may lie, and is appreciated.

Cheers,
Pony


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## samo

spankspank said:


> Maybe the original poster is hoaxing. He could have put the filter box justin sited (set to copy once) to create this senario on his Tivo.


Most ridiculous comment I read on this board for a while. TiVo does not dispute that they "upgraded" series 2 boxes with this "new feature". It is a fact. OP didn't respond to TiVoPony? Who in a hell TivoPony is to the OP? Why does OP have to contact TiVoPony or anybody at TiVo? It is TiVo's problem to find out what went wrong, OP doesn't get paid to help them. To claim that OP bought the filter and set it up to post the hoax is borderline stupid. Although this problem does not affect me personally (I have series 1), I want to mention that there are other PVRs that don't have this "feature" and there is no reason to panic until other vendors start using this flag in the way TiVo does. Vote with your pocketbook and TiVo will respond if they want to stay in business. And for the posters who "owned TiVo since 1997" - check your facts before you post BS here, you are 2 years off. You don't have to pretend to be one of the first TiVo users (like I am )
to vent your anger here.


----------



## mattman

I didn't see it mentioned, but I just read the following article on ArsTechnica:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050914-5307.html

Seems to be very reasonable coverage of the subject.

Matt


----------



## hfwarner3

k6ef said:


> What a piece of crap company. I will NEVER support them EVER again.


OK. Why don't you send in your TiVo and we will give it to a Katrina victim. Bye bye.


----------



## spankspank

Most ridiculous comment I read on this board for a while. TiVo does not dispute that they "upgraded" series 2 boxes with this "new feature". It is a fact.

Umm, duh.

OP didn't respond to TiVoPony? Who in a hell TivoPony is to the OP? Why does OP have to contact TiVoPony or anybody at TiVo? It is TiVo's problem to find out what went wrong, OP doesn't get paid to help them. To claim that OP bought the filter and set it up to post the hoax is borderline stupid.

You're funny. I didn't claim anything - I offered maybe...as in could be. The problem is most likely a broadcast glitch or Tivo bugs or PissedMonkey is slow to return. I was simply intriqued that the post before offered a device that could circumvent or create this problem.

Although this problem does not affect me personally (I have series 1), I want to mention that there are other PVRs that don't have this "feature" and there is no reason to panic until other vendors start using this flag in the way TiVo does.

Tivo was left no choice if they wanted to continue to offer network transfers and DVD creation. Any PVR venders offering that?


----------



## gonzotek

mattman said:


> I didn't see it mentioned, but I just read the following article on ArsTechnica:
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050914-5307.html
> 
> Seems to be very reasonable coverage of the subject.
> 
> Matt


I agree, this was a fair article, highlighting both the frustration and anger that some people are feeling (arguably with justification) and the difficult position companies like TiVo are being put in trying to be innovative and something people actually want to pay for while obeying the law and trying to respect copyright owner's rights.


----------



## cwerdna

kcm said:


> I'm calling to cancel my subscription today, as I'm tired of the problems 7.x has given me with my 140- unit that TiVo felt they were too good to need to address, and now this crap. I still have SFU episodes from last season I am waiting to sit down and watch in a row - if I can't guarantee that ability, I'll do without a PVR.
> 
> Next step will be Comcast's entry in the market. We'll see how long they last before pathetically eating the proverbial gun as TiVo seems to have just done. At least the monthly cost will be half, with no upfront hardware costs, and .. DUAL TUNERS, IN HDTV, etc. et al. As in, a win-win-win situation.


But hey... in the near future, some of Comcasts boxes will have Tivo software on them too.  <ducking for cover>


----------



## Mike_J_Smith

Bah, this is something deal database can easily fix.


----------



## MighTiVo

http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv2186.htm

"Program providers decide what programs will have Macrovision copy protection. Comments regarding the use of Macrovision copy protection should be directed to the copyright holder applying the copy protection. Please do not contact TiVo Customer Support regarding copy protection related issues."

TiVo seems to be saying they have no responsibility for copy protection.

Is TiVo following a law that Macrovision got passed or just abiding by the rules of the contract they signed with Macrovision?

If there is a law then we need to write congress and get it repealed. If it is because of a contract then TiVo is certainly partially responsible...


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## ZeoTiVo

MighTiVo said:


> http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv2186.htm
> 
> "Program providers decide what programs will have Macrovision copy protection. Comments regarding the use of Macrovision copy protection should be directed to the copyright holder applying the copy protection. Please do not contact TiVo Customer Support regarding copy protection related issues."
> 
> TiVo seems to be saying they have no responsibility for copy protection.
> 
> Is TiVo following a law that Macrovision got passed or just abiding by the rules of the contract they signed with Macrovision?
> 
> If there is a law then we need to write congress and get it repealed. If it is because of a contract then TiVo is certainly partially responsible...


they have no responsibility for legal copy protection as decided by the program provider. If you do0 not like the fact that an HBO or PPV show only lasts 24 hours from the point of first watching it then call HBO/Viacomm. The alternative is they could have ditched the macrovision and we could be posting in "TiVo is dying from large legal bills" threads instead. Early model DVRs no longer made or MythTV - an open source no one to sue anyway DVR software - is the only alternative without macrovision I have heard of.

and the fact that TiVo employess are here in this thread getting info and looking into the root cause of this problem shows us that TiVo is acting responsively and responsibly on the matter.


----------



## davezatz

ZeoTiVo said:


> they have no responsibility for legal copy protection as decided by the program provider.
> 
> and the fact that TiVo employess are here in this thread getting info and looking into the root cause of this problem shows us that TiVo is acting responsively and responsibly on the matter.


I agree with those points.

However, it might be good business if Tivo were to rewrite that support article, or even issue a statement, providing more detail in layman's terms to the average Joe who doesn't understand the legal issues or the technology issues - and who probably doesn't read this forum. (We may have gotten almost 50k hits on the thread, but not everyone will read or understand every post... and the number pales in comparison to the readership of BoingBoing, CNET, Engadget, and slashdot. It won't be long before the local news picks it up like they did with the ads.) The current support article as it exists is a almost terse in tone, "hey it's not our fault, and don't waste our time calling us about it."


----------



## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> I agree with those points.
> 
> However, it might be good business if Tivo were to rewrite that support article, or even issue a statement, providing more detail in layman's terms to the average Joe who doesn't understand the legal issues or the technology issues - and who probably doesn't read this forum. (We may have gotten almost 50k hits on the thread, but not everyone will read or understand every post... and the number pales in comparison to the readership of BoingBoing, CNET, Engadget, and slashdot. It won't be long before the local news picks it up like they did with the ads.) The current support article as it exists is a almost terse in tone, "hey it's not our fault, and don't waste our time calling us about it."


I can agree with that point as well. TiVo is very tight with their documentation. they need the lawyers to loosen up a bit and get some real documentation out in the vein you suggest. it would help with a lot of these issues.

Maybe we should adda forum here where we can rewrite the documentation in a better way and gte mondo reward points from TiVo if they actually use the rewrite, he said half joking.


----------



## icecow




----------



## archer75

Read The Article People. They Are Not Implementing Macrovision. This Is A Bug.


----------



## MighTiVo

davezatz said:


> The current support article as it exists is a almost terse in tone, "hey it's not our fault, and don't waste our time calling us about it."


That is my point exactly. TiVo should explain why they were required to impliment the controls. TiVo is not alone here, macrovision has held eveyone hostage to its licensing agreements. As I understand it, basically to be able to decode and playback macrovision protected content they require implimentation of its controls.

I still believe that there needs to be a fair use bill of rights that will protect consumers from companies like macrovision and content owners from locking up content just because they can.

Simply from a TiVo perspective, they should be free to allow MRV and KUID for any content.



archer75 said:


> Read The Article People. They Are Not Implementing Macrovision. This Is A Bug.


If by "They" you mean the broadcasters, then you are correct. TiVo has apparently implimented macrovision and the bug seems to be that content is getting misinterpeted as having the macrovision codes to limit the programs recording, transfer, and retention status when it does not.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

MighTiVo said:


> That is my point exactly. TiVo should explain why they were required to impliment the controls. TiVo is not alone here, macrovision has held eveyone hostage to its licensing agreements. As I understand it, basically to be able to decode and playback macrovision protected content they require implimentation of its controls.
> 
> I still believe that there needs to be a fair use bill of rights that will protect consumers from companies like macrovision and content owners from locking up content just because they can.
> 
> Simply from a TiVo perspective, they should be free to allow MRV and KUID for any content.


 :up: :up: :up:


----------



## MickeS

> Originally Posted by MickeS
> jmoak, which documented features does TiVo have that are not approved by content providers?
> 
> quickly, here's two:
> 
> FCC ignores MPAA, NFL; OKs new TiVo feature
> 
> TiVo experiments with Internet download service


Damn, I hate being wrong. 

/Mike


----------



## MickeS

> TiVo has apparently implimented macrovision and the bug seems to be that content is getting misinterpeted as having the macrovision codes to limit the programs recording, transfer, and retention status when it does not.


That you will no longer be able to save HBO shows and movies for more than 7 days is not a bug.

I don't understand why there isn't more focus on this aspect of the story. If TiVo had not implemented this, it wouldn't have been a problem. I understand HBO's motives for it, but I don't understand TiVo's. I guess everything will have to be saved to VCR from now on on pay-channels.


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## jones07

MickeS said:


> That you will no longer be able to save HBO shows and movies for more than 7 days is not a bug.
> .


Content Owners to consumers: If can't find the time to watch HBO's Rome in 7 days then to bad to be you. And don't think about transferring it to DVD for later viewing, that's whats VOD is for


----------



## jmoak

MickeS said:


> That you will no longer be able to save HBO shows and movies for more than 7 days is not a bug.


HBO programs (and broadcast tv programs such as "King of the Hill") *were not* suppose to be "restricted".


> _from the Wired article:_
> _Tivo:_
> We decided that as long as the restrictions were limited to pay-per-view and video-on-demand, consumers would still have the choice.


 .... when tivo agreed to the macrovision restrictions, this was _only_ suppose to be used on pay-per-view and video-on-demand.


MickeS said:


> I don't understand why there isn't more focus on this aspect of the story.


Because it is supposed to be used on ppv and vod, not hbo or syndicated programs.


MickeS said:


> If TiVo had not implemented this, it wouldn't have been a problem. I understand HBO's motives for it, but I don't understand TiVo's.





> _from the Wired article:_
> _Wired:_
> You're not legally required to have copy protection. Why not tell Macrovision to stuff it?
> _Tivo:_
> That was an option. But if there was no Macrovision license, we would run into a lot of copyright problems with things like remote access and "TiVo to Go" functionality. To innovate and give people more flexibility with broadcast content, we decided it was acceptable to allow content owners to apply protections to higher-value content.


...and the "slippery slope" question:


> _from the Wired article:_
> _Wired:_
> What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.
> _Tivo:_
> That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.


*"I don't think we would go along with it."*

The "Trojan horse" has been pushed through the gate, it seems.

Since there has been no restrictions on my programming so far, I'm game to give tivo the benifit of the doubt. ...._for now._ (I would probably feel different if I had flags on my tivo now playing list)

All this crap could just be misinterpreted noise or a tv station tech who has no idea what he's doing.

....but what if it's not?

Will tivo "go along with it"? Mathew Zinn does not think so, and he outta know.

The actions of tivo in the next few weeks will tell the tale.

Ok, Tivo. It's your move.

Mike,
No worries man. I'm wrong too many times to count. Happens to the best of us. In the future when it's my turn to be wrong again, be kind, ok?


----------



## starbreiz

jmoak said:


> HBO programs (and broadcast tv programs such as "King of the Hill") *were not* suppose to be "restricted".
> .... when tivo agreed to the macrovision restrictions, this was _only_ suppose to be used on pay-per-view and video-on-demand.
> Because it is supposed to be used on ppv and vod, not hbo or syndicated programs.


If you ask TimeWarner, they wanted to start deleting episodes of SFU and Sopranos after two weeks:
http://www.allyourtv.com/0405season/news/november/11282004transitional.html

I had another article, in which they actually talked about deleting an episode before the next one aired, but I can't find the link at the moment.


----------



## MighTiVo

starbreiz said:


> If you ask TimeWarner, they wanted to start deleting episodes of SFU and Sopranos after two weeks:
> http://www.allyourtv.com/0405season/news/november/11282004transitional.html
> 
> I had another article, in which they actually talked about deleting an episode before the next one aired, but I can't find the link at the moment.


Thanks, great link!

_The term being used by the executive is"transitional fair use," and the scenerio laid out goes roughly along these lines:

Viewers would be able to record an episode with their DVR, but there would be a time limit on how long it would be available for viewing. The executive was pushing for an expiration date that coincided with the premiere of the next episode. The consensus of the cable executived was that it needed to be between 2-4 weeks._

Exactly why it is completely reasonable to try to get our voices heard now!


----------



## intercityfirm

OK I dont exactly agree with the policies of the content providers, but I can understand them. I think it's a sad way for them to try to protect their revenue stream from a very small sector of the consumer base - the Tivo community.

On the retention, 7 days may seem like a long time to some people, but have you thought that there are valid reasons for keeping shows longer? 

We live in an age where people while based in the US do work overseas and thats why I and many of my colleagues use Tivo. It's kinda hard to catch the latest episode of CSI in Islamabad, Munich or London to name just a few. 

My point here is that, I bought my Tivo and pay my subscription so that I can watch shows when I get back to the US after being overseas for extended periods of up to a month at a time. So I am exteremly frustrated and disappointed in the implementation of the retention whoever may be controlling it.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

samo said:


> Most ridiculous comment I read on this board for a while. TiVo does not dispute that they "upgraded" series 2 boxes with this "new feature". It is a fact. OP didn't respond to TiVoPony? Who in a hell TivoPony is to the OP? Why does OP have to contact TiVoPony or anybody at TiVo? It is TiVo's problem to find out what went wrong, OP doesn't get paid to help them.


just to reiterate on the TiVo taking responsibility part of all this and needing info on it.
When there is an error such as this between major systems - everyone has to take some responsibility to get it fixed. to simply say TiVo is to go fix the problem without any real world data to do a root cause analysis on is also beyond the realm of reasonable logic. TiVoPony is the guy that can get the real world data of what is ahppening on the box and speficially what broadcaster and local channels are casuing the glitch to the right people. So TiVoPony is to the OP the person who can get the problem he posted about fixed.



> I want to mention that there are other PVRs that don't have this "feature" and there is no reason to panic until other vendors start using this flag in the way TiVo does.


can you list these other PVRs please ?


----------



## MickeS

I guess I'll have to dust off the VCR soon. And just think, when it's all digital there will be even less we can do about it.

But I guess I need to look at the bigger picture here: how would the stars of the shows be able to afford their mansions and vacation homes and Ferraris and jewelry if I was able to keep recordings for longer than a week?

/Mike


----------



## jmoak

starbreiz said:


> If you ask TimeWarner, they wanted to start deleting episodes of SFU and Sopranos after two weeks:
> http://www.allyourtv.com/0405season/news/november/11282004transitional.html
> 
> I had another article, in which they actually talked about deleting an episode before the next one aired, but I can't find the link at the moment.


Now that would bite big time!

It looks like they don't want you to have a copy of a show (on the dvr you get from them) at the same time that they want you to pay again to watch it on their vod system.

It would certainly be a reason to dump TWC and go to a "less restrictive" provider, that's for sure. ....and maybe that's why that article is a year old and we've heard nothing more about the idea.

Although it's good to see another example in print of how the studios seem more interested in using this technology for vod and ppv.


> _from your link:_
> ....but it is known that several studios have been eyeing a restriction on the ability of viewers to record video-on-demand and pay-per-view titles.


----------



## kcm

Why is it more important to be a TiVo apologist at every turn than it is for me to be able to use my PVR the way I *want* to (and did, until I cancelled)? I don't watch shows less than 7 days after first airing.

Cable wasn't supposed to have commercials, health insurance was supposed to be for the consumer's benefit, etc. et al. 'Not supposed to be used in X fashion' is not a valid point.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

kcm said:


> Why is it more important to be a TiVo apologist at every turn than it is for me to be able to use my PVR the way I *want* to (and did, until I cancelled)? I don't watch shows less than 7 days after first airing.
> 
> Cable wasn't supposed to have commercials, health insurance was supposed to be for the consumer's benefit, etc. et al. 'Not supposed to be used in X fashion' is not a valid point.


so what would you have TiVo do differently on this subject ?


----------



## starbreiz

jmoak said:


> It would certainly be a reason to dump TWC and go to a "less restrictive" provider, that's for sure. ....and maybe that's why that article is a year old and we've heard nothing more about the idea.


*nod* I'm aware of its age. I was just trying to point out that while TiVo says it's only intended for PPV and VOD, providers had other ideas. When I read this article back in December, I wrote letters to them and HBO. I said that back on page 3 or so of this thread, but no one listens to me


----------



## starbreiz

ZeoTiVo said:


> can you list these other PVRs please ?


ReplayTV has supposedly had this functionality for a year or so. It's just that they haven't had a false positive yet, like what showed up on King of the Hill.


----------



## MighTiVo

intercityfirm said:


> On the retention, 7 days may seem like a long time to some people, but have you thought that there are valid reasons for keeping shows longer?


It is not uncommon to go on vacation for more than 7 days and I have a tendency to keep adult themed programs around a lot longer until I get an opportunity to watch them.

I can guarantee that no fictional drama will be so important to me that I will continue to watch the program with these restrictions. It will come off my season pass list.

If/when these restrictions come into play, perhaps we can orchastrate a universal boycot of the programs and get as many people as possible to delete the season pass, call the cable company, etc.

It worked for DIVX! Not the mpeg4 encoding used to rip DVD but the standard for disposable DVD discs. It died a quick death because people took an active stance against it. There were banners everywhere asking people to boycott DIVX.


----------



## starbreiz

MighTiVo said:


> It is not uncommon to go on vacation for more than 7 days and I have a tendency to keep adult themed programs around a lot longer until I get an opportunity to watch them.
> 
> I can guarantee that no fictional drama will be so important to me that I will continue to watch the program with these restrictions. It will come off my season pass list.
> 
> If/when these restrictions come into play, perhaps we can orchastrate a universal boycot of the programs and get as many people as possible to delete the season pass, call the cable company, etc.
> 
> It worked for DIVX! Not the mpeg4 encoding used to rip DVD but the standard for disposable DVD discs. It died a quick death because people took an active stance against it. There were banners everywhere asking people to boycott DIVX.


*nod*
When I first read the article I posted above, I was in London (on business, sadly, not vacation) for 2 weeks, and my TiVo was recording Sopranos. If they'd been implimenting the 'delete after one week' policy, I would have been screwed. Hence the letter writing campaign 

To reply to kcm, I'm not trying to be an apologist so much as make the point that this needs to be pushed back to the providers. TiVo is in the position of the middle man.


----------



## MighTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> so what would you have TiVo do differently on this subject ?


Communicate more openly about what the restrictions are, why they are there, and actively lobby congress to allow their system to be used to its fullest potential.

Heck they had the chairman of the FCC on their side, recall when Powell declared TiVo 'God's machine'.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

starbreiz said:


> ReplayTV has supposedly had this functionality for a year or so. It's just that they haven't had a false positive yet, like what showed up on King of the Hill.


not sure if ReplayTV has the new restrictions out on many DVRs yet.

my question to the other poster though was what alternative DVRs that do NOT have the macrovision restrictions are out there besides older DVRs no longer made. (and I am not trying to knock replayTV with this at all - I mean older DVRs not made in genaral like series 1 TiVo)


----------



## MickeS

> so what would you have TiVo do differently on this subject ?


Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but couldn't they just go on doing what they were doing before?



> ZINN: Macrovision changed its policy. So the question was, Do we want to have a Macrovision license with certain restrictions, or none at all? We decided that as long as the restrictions were limited to pay-per-view and video-on-demand, consumers would still have the choice.


I vote "no Macrovision license" now that it's been shown that HBO is apparently using this flag to put restrictions on their material (and unless I missed something, it has not been declared a bug).

And if they have to have a Macrovision license to have TTG and other transfer, then put the restrictions on the transfers. That is not as essential a TiVo functionality as being able to keep your recordings for as long as you want. It's really the forced deletion that bugs me the most here.

Problem solved!

/Mike


----------



## dgh

kcm said:


> Why is it more important to be a TiVo apologist at every turn than it is for me to be able to use my PVR the way I *want* to (and did, until I cancelled)?


Why is it more important that other people support what *you* want to do (with a service you no longer have) than to give their own opinion on a web forum?


----------



## MighTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> not sure if ReplayTV has the new restrictions out on many DVRs yet.
> 
> my question to the other poster though was what alternative DVRs that do NOT have the macrovision restrictions are out there besides older DVRs no longer made. (and I am not trying to knock replayTV with this at all - I mean older DVRs not made in genaral like series 1 TiVo)


Good post here:
http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2005/09/tivo_72_os_adds.html

_Matt - No, TiVo had a MacroVision license since day one, as have other DVR vendors. Try to find a recording device without it - pretty much every VCR, DVR, DVD recorder, etc, supports MacroVision. It is pervasive.

MacroVision is a family of products, all designed to restrict recording and copying. Most people are familiar with the protection on VHS and DVD to prevent copying. But they branched out to broadcast protection too.

The license originally covered the VHS/DVD copy protection. But a couple of years ago MacroVision changed the license to include the broadcast protection. If you want to license MacroVision, now you have to agree to honor that as well. ReplayTV signed up, TiVo held out for a year but eventually needed to renew their license too and that meant agreeing to the new terms.

*MacroVision *dominates* the market, and they use that position to dictate terms. TiVos option would be agree or not support MacroVision - but not supporting MacroVision means no DVD support either, since it is a cascading requirement. To legally support DVDs you need a DVD Forum license, for that you must agree to support CSS, and that requires a MacroVision license. Nice, eh?*

But not having MacroVision would draw the ire of all the content providers, and would likely lead to TiVo needing to fight legal battles that would drain them. The same threat is why MacroVision is so pervasive - it is almost a protection racket. License MacroVision and the big boys don't lean on you, as much.

And they would definitely fight TiVo tooth and nail to block TiVoToGo if TiVo didn't honor MacroVision. And just forget about any of them allowing TiVo to have content for broadband delivery.

Not having MacroVision would be business suicide for TiVo._


----------



## kcm

dgh said:


> Why is it more important that other people support what *you* want to do (with a service you no longer have) than to give their own opinion on a web forum?


That's what I'm asking, really. I don't see the benefit to supporting TiVo caving to the industry and implementing this. They used to be customer-oriented, sadly, this is no longer true given recent moves like this. If the best reasons are 'everyone else is' or 'why not, they PROMISE to only use it For Good', forget it.


----------



## MickeS

Big business and government, joining together to screw the average user, in order to maximize profit and stay in power. What a glorious companionship! 

/Mike


----------



## Y-ASK

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo has not implemented a way for _broadcasters_ to control the TiVo.


Come on Zeo. Stop with all the semantices BS... It's easier to say broadcasters than to say "the folks who put the flag in the video stream" whether it be the content providers or broadcasters. You know exactly what I mean. Tivo gave control to another group who puts the flag in the video stream. That's the problem. They gave away the control. They could have maintained the control by implementing their own version of DRM by applying the restrictions themselves via the Guide data but that's not what they did. They allow another group to control the restrictions and when something goes wrong everyone supporting Tivo wants to blame the Over The Air signal crap or the broadcaster or the someone who might have intentionally putting a box in-between to cause the issue. How about blaming Tivo for implementing it in the 1st place.

This is one area, even though it has been discussed before, that you still stick up for Tivo and I don't think you should. There is no legal reason nor is Tivo being forced to have their devices react to Macrovision Flags. If you know different then let's hear it and please point to your sources.

Y-ASK

Correction: I guess they would need the macrovision crap if they are to support DVD drives. My mistake. But they really are not being forced to implement it for content being recorded from a Cable or Sat. receiver. If it's a Tivo to Go issue then get rid of Tivo to Go...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

kcm said:


> That's what I'm asking, really. I don't see the benefit to supporting TiVo caving to the industry and implementing this. They used to be customer-oriented, sadly, this is no longer true given recent moves like this. If the best reasons are 'everyone else is' or 'why not, they PROMISE to only use it For Good', forget it.


so you would see TiVo not doing macrovision, not having DVD players or burners adn not having TiVoToGo. Simple solution for you - go buy a Series 1 TiVo


----------



## dgh

kcm said:


> I don't see the benefit to supporting TiVo caving to the industry and implementing this. They used to be customer-oriented, sadly, this is no longer true given recent moves like this.


I haven't seen a significant change in TiVo's level of customer orientation yet. TiVo has been concerned about - and tried to work with - the industry for a very long time. Perhaps you just never noticed it before, but before the first TiVo shipped, a TiVo VP described it as "the Holy Grail for Madison Avenue". TiVo was never exclusively focused on the viewer.


----------



## MickeS

Here's what I don't get... they say they have to have the Macrovision license to keep TTG and DVD burning - but doesn't the Macrovision copy protection, when implemented, PREVENT these things? Or am I missing something here?

/Mike


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Y-ASK said:


> Come on Zeo. Stop with all the semantices BS... It's easier to say broadcasters than to say "the folks who put the flag in the video stream" whether it be the content providers or broadcasters. You know exactly what I mean. Tivo gave control to another group who puts the flag in the video stream.
> 
> This is one area, even though it has been discussed before, that you still stick up for Tivo and I don't think you should. There is no legal reason nor is Tivo being forced to have their devices react to Macrovision Flags. If you know different then let's hear it and please point to your sources.
> 
> Y-ASK


TiVo did not *give* the content providers control to put in the macrovision bits either. The legal system and busines law did. The license you agreed to by getting HBO, or ordering PPV gave them the right to. in short *we gave the content providers the right*.

TiVo had a choice to play along or go up against macrovision. consdiering TiVo is not a big conglomerate and has no money to throw around, the choice was obvious for TiVo. I never said their was any legal reason I just implied legal coercion.

so I ask again to anybody

what would you have TiVo do differently ?


----------



## dt_dc

MickeS said:


> Here's what I don't get... they say they have to have the Macrovision license to keep TTG and DVD burning - but doesn't the Macrovision copy protection, when implemented, PREVENT these things? Or am I missing something here?


That's the point ...

A feature like TTG or DVD burning _may_ expose Tivo to a copyright lawsuit from studios. By respecting flags that can disable these features ... Tivo can simply say to the studios "if you don't want your stuff burned to DVD simply mark it appropriately ... it's on you not on us". End of lawsuit.


----------



## Y-ASK

ZeoTiVo said:


> what would you have TiVo do differently ?


I would have them setup every standalone Tivo that records an analog signal (ala capture card method) to ignore the Macrovision flags on everything it records. Macrovision is embedded in the signal now with no video corruption (unless you run it through your VCR). Just have the box ignore it.

Does anyone think Tivo would be sued if they did this. I mean hell they've been doing it for how long now? It's only been recently that they implemented the box reacting to the flags.

Y-ASK


----------



## mearlus

Have an 'easter egg' that ignores macrovision 

I agree, they were given a choice. But not a real choice, pretty much a "agree to this" or shutdown shop and give up.

An easter egg would be cool though 



ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo did not *give* the content providers control to put in the macrovision bits either. The legal system and busines law did. The license you agreed to by getting HBO, or ordering PPV gave them the right to. in short *we gave the content providers the right*.
> 
> TiVo had a choice to play along or go up against macrovision. consdiering TiVo is not a big conglomerate and has no money to throw around, the choice was obvious for TiVo. I never said their was any legal reason I just implied legal coercion.
> 
> so I ask again to anybody
> 
> what would you have TiVo do differently ?


----------



## JYoung

Y-ASK said:


> Does anyone think Tivo would be sued if they did this. I mean hell they've been doing it for how long now? It's only been recently that they implemented the box reacting to the flags.


Replay did get sued for their commerical advance and their Internet show sharing between boxes and the Planet Replay website got shut down because for legal action. And they had a smaller user base.

So yeah, I think TiVo would get sued.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Mike_J_Smith said:


> Bah, this is something deal database can easily fix.


Precisely. Content execs have a choice. If they want to escalate and force deletion of Sopranos after 7 days, it will motivate enough people to use bypassing boxes like I mentioned or for situations where that is not convenient, to have their boxes hacked.

I've heard it speculated that people will be too lazy to use such approaches. That's nonsense. It is directly proportional to the extent that the Content Execs have pissed off consumers. In many western countries with strong IP laws, when you buy your dvd player, the salesperson will ask you if you would like it "serviced" for $20. What that means is that they will have another company replace a ROM so that region coding is disabled.

Nearly everyone that I know of in NZ and OZ opt for that- sure it voids the warranty- no one cares. The box is severely broken to them with the warranty.

But countries with IP law enforcement are in the minority. Profit maximization schemes for the studios need to be applicable to the rest of the world that does not have strong IP laws. With the Internet distribution of video, any leak anywhere means that the problem is fundamentally unpluggable.

If content execs want to escalate this, it will be a full blown guerilla war, involving chinese and brazilian manufacturers and web sites. There will be millions of units using software that obeys no licensing, FCC, or service agreements. The borders will be as porous to "upgrade chips and boards" as they are to drugs and people.

I am not optimistic, but whichever way it goes, the consumers are going to be able to get the functionality they desire. The studios have a responsibility to attempt to maximize their profit, and are accustomed to having maximum leverage. This is not such a situation, but they may well have to have their Vietnam to learn the limits of their leverage.

Certainly, it would have been much better for the Admirals to have listened to Billy Mitchell demonstrating for them in graphic detail that their illusion of battleship invulnerability was a dangerous fantasy. The paper I sited previously from Microsoft engineers presented at an ACM conference dealing with DRM  is one such warning. Content execs can ignore the opinion of such Billy Mitchell's at their peril.


----------



## starbreiz

Followup on BoingBoing: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/15/could_noise_cause_a_.html


----------



## jmoak

> from the boingboing "followup":
> TiVo says that the two programs that got this flag received it as the result of a transmission error -- noise that was "misinterpreted as a copy protection signal."


Poor fellas, they forgot to link to where we could verify that!
As the closest I've seen was ...


> from Tivopony's post in this thread:
> _megazone:_
> You realize this was most likely a transmission glitch and not something the broadcaster was doing deliberately.
> _Tivopony:_
> We do believe this to be the case, and if anyone else sees this happen please do send Stephen or myself a private message with your TSN and any available information about the broadcaster. Thanks.
> ...
> As others have noted, we have seen the random occurance of this before. And in each case there's been a glitch or a bug lurking somewhere. Nothing malevolant.


Believe blogs without verifiying???? Do I look like I ride in a "SwiftBoat" or enjoy "Moving On" to you???


----------



## Justin Thyme

Oh great. If it's going to get quoted, then Bob- I suggest you edit that typo- It's malevolent.

(No one in the audience jump me- I hate grammar cops too- and I freely admit my notes are more filled with typos than the average TCF post- but if it will be quoted... Maybe no big deal though. This little storm in a teacup is looking to be slowing down. We are only up 50K hits today. Dang- more "Views" than the entire Mcwhiner thread in less than 4 days.)


----------



## ufo4sale

Can someone setup a poll to see how wide spread the problem actually is? As far as I can tell only two or three people have seen these red flags.


----------



## Y-ASK

JYoung said:


> Replay did get sued for their commerical advance and their Internet show sharing between boxes and the Planet Replay website got shut down because for legal action. And they had a smaller user base.
> 
> So yeah, I think TiVo would get sued.


I realize that anyone can pretty much sue anyone, but Tivo has been ignoring Macrovision for the last four years or more. Don't you think if they were going to be sued they would have been sued by now? I'm just thankful that the 1st video capture card I purchased did not have any of the macrovision crap setup. Unfortunately it seems that most of the newer cards have it.

Y-ASK


----------



## Aflat

Has anyone else looked at the flip side of this? Sure Macrovision is now enabled. Don't you see what that gives them? You can download a Netflix movie, that can't be ripped to DVD, moved via TivoToGo, and deletes itself after a certain amount of days. Sure there will be workarounds, but not easy ones for the average user, which makes it a justifiable market.

Sounds like step 1 in the Netflix/Tivo coop to me. Of course, it sucks for things like regular shows, but it appears to be a bug/glitch, who knows what.


----------



## dgh

Y-ASK said:


> Don't you think if they were going to be sued they would have been sued by now?


No. TiVo is still small and the long-term threat isn't well understood - especially since TiVo does try to work with the companies that the technology threatens. It's often better to wait to see what the real impact is. It makes for better cases and larger awards and saves time fighting things that only seemed like threats. And mutual agreements can be more productive than court cases.


----------



## rainwater

Aflat said:


> Has anyone else looked at the flip side of this? Sure Macrovision is now enabled. Don't you see what that gives them? You can download a Netflix movie, that can't be ripped to DVD, moved via TivoToGo, and deletes itself after a certain amount of days. Sure there will be workarounds, but not easy ones for the average user, which makes it a justifiable market.
> 
> Sounds like step 1 in the Netflix/Tivo coop to me. Of course, it sucks for things like regular shows, but it appears to be a bug/glitch, who knows what.


I don't subscribe to Netflix so I could care less about that. I don't have HBO so I could care less about that.

TiVo says this is for PPV's and VOD ONLY. Obviously, its not just for that. TiVo also says they may have interpreted the noise incorrectly for which people who know how it works have laughed themselves silly. Why can't TiVo just clarify the situation already?


----------



## jmoak

rainwater said:


> TiVo also says they may have interpreted the noise incorrectly for which people who know how it works have laughed themselves silly.


boingboing has said that as well, but I can't find where tivo has stated that. Can you point me to a link where tivo says they may have interpreted the noise incorrectly?

Thanks!


----------



## dgh

rainwater said:


> Why can't TiVo just clarify the situation already?


As far as I can tell from the thread, the 1 to 3 people who have seen a problem haven't contacted TiVo with any details. If that trend continues, I don't expect to see a lot of additional clarity real soon.

But speaking of clarity, how much less could you care? (Yeah I know, I'm the last person to talk about typos but "I could care less" always makes me wonder: how much? )


----------



## Dan203

Y-ASK said:


> I realize that anyone can pretty much sue anyone, but Tivo has been ignoring Macrovision for the last four years or more. Don't you think if they were going to be sued they would have been sued by now? I'm just thankful that the 1st video capture card I purchased did not have any of the macrovision crap setup. Unfortunately it seems that most of the newer cards have it.


Actually that's incorrect. TiVo has had a Macrovision license, and played by their rules, since day one. Macrovision just decided to change the rules. Previously all they required was that TiVo detect the Macrovision signal and recreate that same signal on output. Now they are forcing TiVo, and other DVR manufacturers, to adhear to these new forced deletion rules or lose their license. And unfortunately the Macrovision licenses is interlocked with other licenses that TiVo needs to function as a business.

Dan


----------



## Y-ASK

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo has always had a macrovision license and TiVo has definitley not ignored macrovision. macrovision seems fine with the pace TiVo is complying with the realtively new agreement on broadcast bits. you are starting with incorrect assumptions and leaping to wrong conclusions


Man you piss me off sometimes with some of your interpretations . I meant that my TIVO DEVICE ignored (didn't do anything with) the embedded Macrovison Flags for the last four or more years and it's only recently they set the software up to deal with the Flags. You're not understanding what I am saying and your incorrect interpretations are leading you to argue wrong conclusions. Now get with the program please... 

Y-ASK


----------



## Y-ASK

Dan203 said:


> Now they are forcing TiVo, and other DVR manufacturers, to adhear to these new forced deletion rules or lose their license.


And if they lose their license that would cause... what?

I already answered your 1st response when I responded to Zeo, that makes Two mis-interpretations. Must be my fault.

Y-ASK


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Y-ASK said:


> Man you piss me off sometimes with some of your interpretations . I meant that my TIVO DEVICE ignored (didn't do anything with) the embedded Macrovison Flags for the last four or more years and it's only recently they set the software up to deal with the Flags. You're not understanding what I am saying and your incorrect interpretations and leading you to argue wrong conclusions. Now get with the program please...
> 
> Y-ASK


sorry I deleted my post as Dan203 stated it much better just above you.

as for what they would lose - they would imediately have to disable any DVD playback on any Tivo with a DVD and no valid license.

they would get there butts sued silly over TTG and anything else macrovision could think of /convince interested parties to sue over.


----------



## dgh

Y-ASK said:


> that makes Two mis-interpretations. Must be my fault.
> 
> Y-ASK


If you've read Dan's post including "Macrovision just decided to change the rules. Previously all they required..." then I don't understand the distinction you're making either.


----------



## rainwater

dgh said:


> As far as I can tell from the thread, the 1 to 3 people who have seen a problem haven't contacted TiVo with any details. If that trend continues, I don't expect to see a lot of additional clarity real soon.


I don't mean clarify these actual instances. But to clarify what the flag can be used for, who can set the flag (I'm sorry but Joe Schmoe at a local affiliate shouldn't be able to click a button and have shows deleted automatically), etc. From what I can see, TiVo hasn't devised a very good plan on how to handle these flags. If it is only for VOD and PPV, then the software itself shouldn't allow it on other shows. I have no problem using this for PPV and VOD, but the software should exclude it from "accidentally" happening on other shows.


----------



## dt_dc

Y-ASK said:


> And if they lose their license that would cause... what?


Didn't Tivo's general counsel answer this?


> http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3
> 
> (Wired) You're not legally required to have copy protection. Why not tell Macrovision to stuff it?
> 
> (TiVo general counsel Matthew Zinn) That was an option. But if there was no Macrovision license, we would run into a lot of copyright problems with things like remote access and "TiVo to Go" functionality.


----------



## MickeS

How about this: TiVo gives the user the option of having EITHER TTG and DVD-burning and all the other transfer stuff WITH Macrovision, OR disable it and be able to record and save any show indefinitely. 

I know what I'd end up doing, as soon as I saw my first show being tagged for deletion by a broadcaster.


----------



## Shaolin Dogs

rainwater said:


> If it is only for VOD and PPV, then the software itself shouldn't allow it on other shows.


But it's not just for VOD and PPV. That can be inferred from Zinn's hardly reassuring answer from the same _Wired_ article:



> [WIRED: ]What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.
> 
> [ZINN: ]That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.


The higher-value content Wired is referring to is <<VOD and PPV>>. Zinn could have said, "If the flag is applied to something other than higher-value content, we will NOT go along with it." But he didn't.

He's hoping "content owners" will get the message about the perils of limiting consumer flexibility if consumers don't buy PPV. But given the industry's singular focus on locking down consumer devices like the PVR and every other statement in this thread about the relative power of the copyright industry and TiVo, I'm thinking they're not going to "get" that message.


----------



## topolski

TiVo,

DRM is the publisher's attempt to enforce electronically what they could not get legally. 

**** I HAVE THE RIGHT **** (me) to record these shows for my personal use. The content owner (not me) has the right to distribute it, make money on it, etc.. 

I was going to buy a second unit for the bedroom, but now I'll buy a Snapstream unit instead. 

I'm not buying from someone who treats me like a crook. :down:


----------



## MickeS

Doesn't Snapstream have the new Macrovision protection too? I assume they can't be without it either, if it's like TiVo describes it?


----------



## Y-ASK

dgh said:


> If you've read Dan's post including "Macrovision just decided to change the rules. Previously all they required..." then I don't understand the distinction you're making either.


The distinction I was trying to make is that previous versions of the Tivo software just recorded the macrovision that was embedded in the analog video stream. The Tivo (software) did not do anything with it. It recorded it and it passed it on. Now Tivo has changed the way the software works and is now doing something with the Flags. The macrovision flags now trigger a software reaction which did not happen before the updates.

Ok so the rules have changed. But do I really need Tivo to Go, Remote Access or a DVD player or burner on my Tivo? That's really the only need for the macrovision license isn't it?

Oh well, I guess well see what becomes of this.

Y-ASK


----------



## Justin Thyme

jmoak said:


> boingboing has said that as well, but I can't find where tivo has stated that. Can you point me to a link where tivo says they may have interpreted the noise incorrectly?
> 
> Thanks!


I am sure that Stephen's team appreciates all the assistance they are getting from Brussels and the Blogmeisters with their armchair debugging opinions. Of course facts have some utility too, but none of the bloggers I have read have taken the responsible step of urging users to contact Tivo with their TSN if they see this phenomenon.

Anyway, Dwight Silverman reported  the test phase "noise problem" on his blog. Apparently, it is his phone interview quote of what Denney told him. But Denney is a marketing not technical guy so who knows if his shorthand "noise" remark means that it is "like" a noise problem or what. Anyway, if you look at the direct quote, Denney was talking about a problem that was resolved before the software was released, not what test had revealed about the current problem.



Denney said:


> "During the test process, we came across people who had false positives because of noisy analog signals," he said. "We actually delayed development (of the new TiVo software) to address those false positives."


So what does it mean? The Brussels DRM conference guys were guffawing about lousey Tivo software misinterpreting a Macrovision checksummed field. Of course, the "OS company" engineer who made the remark was unidentified and paraphrased. Whatever- Great thinking guys. But consider the scenario of what you do when you get damaged field. Do you assume content not protected? Or do you take the conservative position of assuming it is protected until you get an authenticated field prove that it is unprotected? In that scenario and with that school of thought, noise/ slightly invalid field= false positive, and the Tivo software would hardly be considered buggy. Not desireable by many customers, but not buggy. And Denney indicated he was NOT of that school of thought, and that there should be no false positives.

So much for more of Cory's idiotic notes. What do you expect- if he were even remotely interested in the facts, he could have picked up citations here on where he could learn for himself that the macrovision flags occupy two bits, not one. Perhaps Cory in his expert engineering opinion didn't stop to consider how the 4 states documented on the tivo site could get stored in one bit.

But like I said, these guys aren't interested in reading and thinking. Just ranting and writing and striving to be read.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

topolski said:


> **** I HAVE THE RIGHT **** (me) to record these shows for my personal use.


the sony betamax case went that way, but it never said how long soemthing could be kept after recroding it. this falls into the archive discussion as well that was discussed in the case and did not seem to be soemthing the court wanted to include in its ruling

bottom line there is no specified right on time duration so the content providers are making their own times. it seems like this will all go back to court at some point for more clarity


----------



## dgh

Y-ASK said:


> Ok so the rules have changed. But do I really need Tivo to Go, Remote Access or a DVD player or burner on my Tivo?


Well that's up to you, and I don't (yet) use any of them myself, but I think TiVo feels it needs those to sell more TiVos. In the most recent TiVo vs cable DVR thread, these features are mentioned in about half the replies as a reason to prefer a TiVo so TiVo marketing may be on to something.


----------



## Justin Thyme

The CNet article was updated with a correction note:


CNET said:


> *Correction*: This story originally misrepresented the interoperation of TiVo's operating system and the TiVo application with technology from Macrovision. The problem reported by TiVo users comes as a result of "false positives" on the part of TiVo and not any flagging of broadcast TV content by Macrovision.


 Boy I sure am glad they set the record straight. Too bad there is no such thing as "flagging of broadcast TV content by Macrovision.", and the Macrovision "technology" being discussed here is 2 inert bits.

The blogmeisters have an excuse for their crackpot information. (I have even better excuses.  ) But we expect more from CNet. This is just plain shoddy journalism.


----------



## Dan203

Y-ASK said:


> Ok so the rules have changed. But do I really need Tivo to Go, Remote Access or a DVD player or burner on my Tivo? That's really the only need for the macrovision license isn't it?


You may not have a need for such features, and some of them may not even apply to the particular unit you're using, but this is a blanket license for TiVo. They either have to take it or leave it. They can't selectively turn it on/off depending on the unit or the users particular preference.

Dan


----------



## Justin Thyme

MickeS said:


> Doesn't Snapstream have the new Macrovision protection too? I assume they can't be without it either, if it's like TiVo describes it?


 Not that I have read, but they may have changed their minds. This article states why. Since they are not a macrovision licensee, Snapstream is not contractually obligated to honor the flags as Tivo is. Microsoft on the other hand is working very closely with macrovision, and they are embedding support for macrovision, CGMS and other protections deep into Longhorn/Vista. If Snapstream software doesn't get certificatin as conforming to its PVP-OPM standard, their software will be denied access *by the operating system* to video input and output services necessary for their product. Remember the specification with Microsoft example code I pointed to earlier? They are specifically verifying that they do not talk to any software that isn't certified as supporting the macrovision flags.

Evan light (of Gadget Fetish) wrote the following about the situation with Snapstream and other software products:


evan said:


> Chris point leads into one of my favorite rants: we will all be at the mercy of whatever DRM restrictions that the content providers choose to levy upon us. MCE (and future incarnations) will merely propagate these restrictions to the end user. SnapStream, SageTV, and other 3rd party DVRs will be limited by the DRM impositions of the *operating system* and, if Microsoft does their job right, there will be no way around it for any 3rd party DVR that operates under Vista.


Snapstream's author had a response to the Vista situation in a blog entry on the Snapstream site entitled: "Supposedly my Company is Ruined..."

His point goes to Evan's "if Microsoft does their job right" caveat. Sure- that's liable to be big enough to drive a truck through for at least a few years- and not everyone is going to upgrade from XP anyway. Yeah- no one doubts that it is possible to bypass Microsoft authorized drivers and modules. But it makes for a much more difficult engineering task though.

Sure does make you want to rush out and buy a new MCE with Vista, doesn't it. And Apple is going to be in the same boat as MS. Linux anyone?

No safe harbor there either. Even if they could hide out on a user friendly enough to be competitive linux box, they would face a withering storm of MPAA lawsuits.

Not pretty.


----------



## HeartBurn Kid

I've never been more glad to have a Series 1 Tivo.


----------



## samo

> my question to the other poster though was what alternative DVRs that do NOT have the macrovision restrictions are out there besides older DVRs no longer made. (and I am not trying to knock replayTV with this at all - I mean older DVRs not made in genaral like series 1 TiVo)


All of the Dish DVRs I have allow me to store PPV indefinitely and/or record them to DVD. Of course on other pay or network programming I can do the same as well. I can't speak for cable DVRs, I don't have one, but I'm sure Dr. Strange will pop into this thread sometime and he tested and/or owns just about every DVR known to mankind, so we may get definitive answer.


----------



## starbreiz

samo said:


> All of the Dish DVRs I have allow me to store PPV indefinitely and/or record them to DVD.


Gee... just like TiVo before this little glitch on what.. two programs?


----------



## Justin Thyme

Oh how insensitive of you. It was PBS for cripesake. Ok maybe it was restricted to whatever godforsaken village simonalope lives in. But do you have any idea how homocidal a 2 year old will get if anyone deletes her Elmos?



samo said:


> All of the Dish DVRs I have allow me to store PPV indefinitely and/or record them to DVD.


 I guess that means your behavior is the same as what 99.9999% of Tivo owners see on their machines. But it ain't gonna last folks. Once those PPV shows start using the macrovision flags, it doesn't matter if you have dish, direct or a cable box- every macrovision licensee must honor those flags. HBO only began making volume use of those flags since last June. More info here. Apparently, Dish users haven't yet been able to enjoy the full benefits of this new service yet.

Folks have been complaining about the CGMS-A flags being used on their carriers since last summer. That is, if your provider has gotten around to "upgrading" your STB yet, your DVD copies of HBO should be copy once, and you should be totally blocked from recording any on demand HBO content. Some people have dvrs that respect the CGMS and Macrovision flags, others do not. Most don't notice because HBO allows copy once- only when they go to copy from the DVD will they get hammered.

EG:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=555115
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=415716

Samo- no sweat when Dish Network "fixes" your problem of not getting the delete after 7 days feature- just use the remedies I listed earlier.

Oh whoops. I forgot. You are wired in to Dish since you fell for using their PVR, so you can't introduce a copy flag blocker.

Tough break. Good thing you still haven't forsaken your Tivos.

PS. Looks like people are getting bored of this subject. Only 10,000 hits on this thread today.


----------



## samo

Justin, I realize that this thread is very long and you obviously missed my original post and replied to my reply to the reply on this:


> Although this problem does not affect me personally (I have series 1), I want to mention that there are other PVRs that don't have this "feature" and there is no reason to panic until other vendors start using this flag in the way TiVo does.


The trend is and will be to use the flags, but for now only TiVo implemented software "fix" that enforces them due to TTG. If other vendors start doing this, then it will be time to panic and rase hell, but it is not happening in near future.
Market forces and bottom line are much stronger than some ridiculous ideas. If I knew that I can't keep PPV longer than few days, I would be less likely to order it. If HBO starts putting flags on the shows, I'd be less likely to subscribe to HBO and so on. If bottom line suffers, flags will go the way of PC dongles.


> Oh whoops. I forgot. You are wired in to Dish since you fell for using their PVR, so you can't introduce a copy flag blocker.


Don't have to. Since Dish allows me not to accept software update, I always wait few weeks and read the forums before I do. So theoretically I can keep the old software if new one introduces the flag.


----------



## rainwater

Dan203 said:


> You may not have a need for such features, and some of them may not even apply to the particular unit you're using, but this is a blanket license for TiVo. They either have to take it or leave it. They can't selectively turn it on/off depending on the unit or the users particular preference.
> 
> Dan


There are other DVD Recorder/DVR combos on the market that support Macrovision. And I am not aware of one that auto deletes your content. I know the Toshiba will restrict you from writing content to DVD, but they do not delete it off of the disk (the RD-XS52, etc).

From what I have read, its not just for VOD and PPV. Why TiVo would state that earlier I don't know.


----------



## mec1991

HeartBurn Kid said:


> I've never been more glad to have a Series 1 Tivo.


You and me both, brother


----------



## ZeoTiVo

samo said:


> The trend is and will be to use the flags, but for now only TiVo implemented software "fix" that enforces them due to TTG. If other vendors start doing this, then it will be time to panic and rase hell, but it is not happening in near future.


right you are on this, and my original question on other DVRs was centered more around any that do not have a macrovision license at all. I do not know how the provisons in the macrovison license are stated but I imagine there must be some clause on time to be compliant with the new bits and so forth.

to expand on what you said, TiVo went forward to compliance on the new bits as that was part of their pitch to the NFL and FCC on interent file sharing feature - any content provider could block it if they so desired. Also I am sure some internet download providers want to secure their stuff as well.


> Market forces and bottom line are much stronger than some ridiculous ideas. If I knew that I can't keep PPV longer than few days, I would be less likely to order it. If HBO starts putting flags on the shows, I'd be less likely to subscribe to HBO and so on. If bottom line suffers, flags will go the way of PC dongles.


 I actually dropped HBO/cinemax years ago becasue I found them of little value even then. I almost got HBO again after having a TiVo due to the original series but I had pleanty to watch anyway, being a sci-fi fan and stayed with the more economical Netflix since I could get the HBO on DVD from netflix at some point anyway. Never did a PPV, the cost was too high and the movies too old. I tried movielink but they delete a movie after 24 hours of watching. That is too short a time. if the providers start real short time limits on the content then they will see a sharp drop off in sales.



> Don't have to. Since Dish allows me not to accept software update, I always wait few weeks and read the forums before I do. So theoretically I can keep the old software if new one introduces the flag.


Hope that works for you, again I wonder what the macrovison provisions are, especially on equipment owned by a company and leased out. Since TiVo requires a hack to stop updates or you have the series 1 that does not get software updates - TiVo inc is sitting on solid legal ground


----------



## Justin Thyme

mec1991 said:


> HeartBurn Kid said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never been more glad to have a Series 1 Tivo.
> 
> 
> 
> You and me both, brother
Click to expand...

And some people like the warmth of sound that tube radios produce. The series one is a classic, and eminently hackable. I might like to buy one off Ebay some time, not to use, but to display next to my 8 bit computers from the 70s.

But better on account of this easily bypassable feature forced down our throats by the studios? You must be joking.

Maybe 7.2 had a bug with allowing non PPV channels to use flags, let's not lose site of the fact that 7.2 allows you to do some really remarkable things you can't get from any other mass market DVR. Least of all on a box you can buy for $50, and that is easy enough for your grandmother to use.

Me- I like the fact I can use a terabyte server as an enormous video jukebox for the entire home. Let's see- the count is about 750 shows now- mostly movies like Shrek, Forest Gump, Guys and Dolls, Notorious, Pulp Fiction.

Heeheehee. Right now, I could pull the plug on my service for a month and I wouldn't notice. Already, I have severely reduced my extra packages. I don't need them anymore.

Try that on a Series one or a Dish Network PVR.

You can't, and you never will. So if you really really hate those flags, go ahead- cut off your nose to spite your face.

Postcript: Interesting thing about that jukebox. The affect on my viewing pattern is that I realize how great those treasured movies really are- my favorites are the prestige epic films. I am looking forward to the HD DVDs especially classic widescreen movies like cleopatra, ben hur, and lawrence of arabia. I have the remasterred anamorphic ben hur, but 380 lines on the vertical makes for some pretty awful jaggies.

Personally, I think jukeboxing will increase not decrease demand for content. That point is actually not OT, but crucial what is driving the phenomenon we saw with this macrovision flags bug. The SD versions I have that have been panned and scanned are like advertisements into the studio's enormous back catalog of films. You play them over and over because you can and they enjoy the "It's a wonderful Life" phenomenon of becoming treasured classics *Because* they are repeated. What you find is that you end up wanting more, and you are willing to pay. But you are only willing to pay for it because you were able to repeat play it many times on a whim.


----------



## davezatz

Justin Thyme said:


> And some people like the warmth of sound that tube radios produce. The series one is a classic, and eminently hackable. I might like to buy one off Ebay some time, not to use, but to display next to my 8 bit computers from the 70s.


I've been wanting to pick up an old acoustic coupler modem off of ebay to remind me of the ASCII porn we used to download as teenagers. Ah the good ole days of 300 baud and line noise.


----------



## starbreiz

oh my god... i feel so young. my first was 2400 baud. mmm BBS's. and Legend of the Red Dragon 



davezatz said:


> I've been wanting to pick up an old acoustic coupler modem off of ebay to remind me of the ASCII porn we used to download as teenagers. Ah the good ole days of 300 baud and line noise.


----------



## stevel

300 baud? Luxury! I started with 110 baud...


----------



## dgh

starbreiz said:


> oh my god... i feel so young. my first was 2400 baud. mmm BBS's. and Legend of the Red Dragon


And I feel old. I remember how 110 baud on an ASR 33 teletype was SO much better than typing cards at the card punch machine and then taking the deck to computer room so it could read them in and spit out pages of error messages.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

ah the regression of a thread |||:::::::.................


I had a 300 baud modem into a midrange at work, you had to get it to pick dial tone and dial then throw a switch to have the computer start "talking"

I would talk about the begining of the Universe but it would break my beta agreement with a higher power


----------



## billbo1970

I'm still waiting to see what happens on this issue in general, if the networks will or will not abuse this 'feature' in the latest TiVo software update...

*IF they do*, and start setting these delete flags...

We should all agree to boycott an episode of the show.... not the whole season, why bite off your nose to spite your face? But, if we are able to spread the word and there is a dramatic decrease in viewership of a popular show on a particular night, our voices would be heard loud & clear... and we would really need to get the word out there, not only to TiVo users, but users of all DVR/PVR/sofware & anyone who cares about the 'industry' encroaching on our fair use rights!

Bill


----------



## ZeoTiVo

billbo1970 said:


> I'm still waiting to see what happens on this issue in general, if the networks will or will not abuse this 'feature' in the latest TiVo software update...
> 
> *IF they do*, and start setting these delete flags...


how about we just call the FCC since it is illegal for OTA broadcasts to do that. What the OP posted about is a glitch. What he reported and then ducked out on is something that is not legally allowed to happen.

HBO on the other hand ...............


----------



## billbo1970

ZeoTiVo said:


> how about we just call the FCC since it is illegal for OTA broadcasts to do that. What the OP posted about is a glitch. What he reported and then ducked out on is something that is not legally allowed to happen.
> 
> HBO on the other hand ...............


It may be illegal, but isn't macrovisions revoking of our fair-use rights also illegal? Aren't we entitled to backup a VHS/DVD copy for our kids to ruin... instead of being forced to use the original? How long would it be tied up in the courts? How long has DRM been debated over? Hmm... HDTV still seems to be sketchy as well...

HBO: If I'm paying a monthly fee to watch their shows, I should be able to watch it whenever *I* want to, not when *they want me to.*

Bill


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## ZeoTiVo

billbo1970 said:


> It may be illegal, but isn't macrovisions revoking of our fair-use rights also illegal? Aren't we entitled to backup a VHS/DVD copy for our kids to ruin... instead of being forced to use the original? How long would it be tied up in the courts? How long has DRM been debated over? Hmm... HDTV still seems to be sketchy as well...


 I agree, wish I had the money and years to get a good court case going. Seems like the courts do not see it the same way. Macrovision seems unconcerned about legal challenges. I doubt Congress is going to pass a law requiring all content to be unprotected for fair use, since we all know what would really happen and indeed does happen already on a smaller scale despite the DRM.



> HBO: If I'm paying a monthly fee to watch their shows, I should be able to watch it whenever *I* want to, not when *they want me to.*
> Bill


 the fact you are paying specifically for premium channels like HBO means there is a contract involved. I have no idea what the terms are but I bet the lawyers for Viacomm know every detail of it. I stopped using premium channels a long time ago, never saw value in them or PPV.


----------



## rainwater

ZeoTiVo said:


> how about we just call the FCC since it is illegal for OTA broadcasts to do that. What the OP posted about is a glitch. What he reported and then ducked out on is something that is not legally allowed to happen.
> 
> HBO on the other hand ...............


Call them all you want, but Tivo should be smart enough to ignore these flags on these channels. Then there wouldn't have been this issue to begin with.


----------



## starbreiz

billbo1970 said:


> It may be illegal, but isn't macrovisions revoking of our fair-use rights also illegal? Aren't we entitled to backup a VHS/DVD copy for our kids to ruin... instead of being forced to use the original? How long would it be tied up in the courts? How long has DRM been debated over? Hmm... HDTV still seems to be sketchy as well...
> 
> HBO: If I'm paying a monthly fee to watch their shows, I should be able to watch it whenever *I* want to, not when *they want me to.*
> 
> Bill


I'm with ya on the HBO bit. Though it does tick me off when my friends download the latest episode of Sopranos and I'm paying $25/mo for HBO. So I can see where they'd want to protect the content from the kiddies who will distribute it.

With the digital age and DMCA and such, there seems to be a fine line between potential for infringement and fair use anymore. Damn those Macrovision bastards...


----------



## gonzotek

billbo1970 said:


> I'm still waiting to see what happens on this issue in general, if the networks will or will not abuse this 'feature' in the latest TiVo software update...
> 
> *IF they do*, and start setting these delete flags...
> 
> We should all agree to boycott an episode of the show.... not the whole season, why bite off your nose to spite your face? But, if we are able to spread the word and there is a dramatic decrease in viewership of a popular show on a particular night, our voices would be heard loud & clear... and we would really need to get the word out there, not only to TiVo users, but users of all DVR/PVR/sofware & anyone who cares about the 'industry' encroaching on our fair use rights!
> 
> Bill


The flipside to boycotting the DRM'd/flagged content would be supporting 'free' content. There are independent producers with some really good stuff that would love to have a market, and with the ability of 7.2 to download internet content, we can 'vote' with our remotes for content that doesn't come with restrictions. If there was an internet-distributed tv series that was even marginally interesting to me, and it came in some form of unencumbered video(no flags, copies and transfers freely allowed), I *would* pay a reasonable fee for it to arrive effortlessly on my TiVo. And by effortlessly, I mean just point my remote and tell it I want a season pass of a show that happens to come from the internet instead of traditional sources.


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## starbreiz

Question:
PVRBlog is reporting that TCM programming has used this flag: http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2005/09/drm_on_ifc.html

This certainly isn't over the air like the FOX programs... same supposed noise?


----------



## Y-ASK

Since Tivo is so wonderful at collecting data, I would suggest that Tivo run a quick poll everytime a program was recorded with DRM set to restrict. You choose to record the show and they bring up a window or text message informing you of the limits of the recording. Then they would allow you to vote your dis-pleasure:

Yes I want to record and I accept the limts put on the content.

Yes I want to record but I am not happy about the limits put on the content.

No, I refuse to record this program and the content providers can pound sand.

Tivo could make this information public and we'll see what we see. It's one way of seeing how effective a boy-cott would be...

But since Tivo has such a small percentage of the DVR market their data might not be worth anything to the powers that be any way...

Y-ASK


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## Justin Thyme

gonzotek said:


> The flipside to boycotting the DRM'd/flagged content would be supporting 'free' content. There are independent producers with some really good stuff that would love to have a market, and with the ability of 7.2 to download internet content, we can 'vote' with our remotes  for content that doesn't come with restrictions.....And by effortlessly, I mean just point my remote and tell it I want a season pass of a show that happens to come from the internet instead of traditional sources.


Hear hear.

Give me enough mainstream content, and they can have all the money I give my Carrier now.. I'll gladly dump them in favor of it.


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## Dan203

Well rebroadcasting any TV content you don't own is illegal, so it would be impossible for a 3rd party company to setup a download service that included "mainstream content" without getting permission from the original broadcaster first. Which would probably be close to impossible.

Dan


----------



## starbreiz

Dan203 said:


> Well rebroadcasting any TV content you don't own is illegal, so it would be impossible for a 3rd party company to setup a download service that included "mainstream content" without getting permission from the original broadcaster first. Which would probably be close to impossible.
> 
> Dan


Impossible? Soapcity.com offers subscriptions to download pretty much every soap opera for $10/series/month. Clearly they got rights permissions from various broadcasters. The only caveat is that the downloads aren't available until it's finished airing on the west coast. So when I lived on the east coast, I had to wait until 7pm to get Days of Our Lives. I quit subscribing when I moved to California and got a TiVo.

They use Microsofts DRM and it checks for a license online, so you can only watch the content for 30 days after the original airing. Unless they put up special content, like the first episode of Days ever.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Akimbo was able to line up the following content. 

CNN
BBC-all programming
Cartoon Network
History Channel
National Geographic
Turner classic Movies


----------



## mec1991

Justin Thyme said:


> And some people like the warmth of sound that tube radios produce. The series one is a classic, and eminently hackable. I might like to buy one off Ebay some time, not to use, but to display next to my 8 bit computers from the 70s.
> 
> But better on account of this easily bypassable feature forced down our throats by the studios? You must be joking. [/SIZE]


Justin,

I bought my TiVo for one reason only - to record and watch television programs when I want to. You know, "television your way". Period, end of story. I don't give a rat's hinder about the things so many people here use it for. I won't bore you with my dislike of the Series 2 picture quality nor with my opinion of the company's attitude toward Mac users. I am already leaving TiVo anyway, even without them interfering with basic usage like being able to watch recorded programs when I want to, not when the content provider expects me to. It is a culmination of so many little things, not any one in particular. When I bought my first in 2001 (IIRC) I thought the company was the greatest in the world. To say my opinion has changed would be somewhat of an understatement.

Thanks for the video filter info earlier in this thread.

The Series 1 (lifetime) has served me well and it will continue to be used if only for program listings for the new Sony to record.


----------



## megazone

ZeoTiVo said:


> he used to until anyone who spoke the real story was labeled a fanboy as if that sKeep it real Megazone :up: PS zonereyrie=megazone


Heh... Yeah, what ZeoTiVo said basically. The volume here is so large, and the noise level is overwhelming. I got sick of the kneejerk idiots and the tinfoil hat crowd that think everything is an evil conspiracy. Plus I find vBulletin highly annoying. I don't like boards that mark things as read for me - if I pop in to check something and don't have a lot of time to read everything, when I come back later the board's decided to mark everything as read just because I popped in for a second. Too frustrating to bother with for me.

Besides, there are plenty of people here to help out the rational folks, but not many people who monitor the newsgroups, mailing lists, blogs, etc. So I subscribed to a slew of them - and now I'm using Google's Blog Search to monitor the blogosphere for posts about TiVo. So I've been swooping in out of the blue to comment and answer questions.  I set up an RSS feed to notify me when anyone mentions TiVo. ;-)

Basically if you look at the list of groups, sites, blogs, etc on this page - I participate in just about all of them, or at least keep an eye on them.


----------



## megazone

ldconfig said:


> There is NOT any DRM on my two replaytv units!!!!!!!


Yes there is. And there has been for years. ReplayTV even stated so openly. Just because you're ignorant of it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Before they introduced IVS/SendShow they added support for MacroVision limits. The stated, more than once, that their software would block the sharing of any shows properly flagged. It was part of their defence over the IVS lawsuit too. Since no one ever really used it, end users just didn't know it was there.

ReplayTV agreed to the updated requirements a year before TiVo did, back in 2003. And my understanding is they updated their support a while back. But, again, you'd never know it was there unless/until it got tripped. The only reason TiVo users have noticed this appears to be a bug of some kind.

TiVo seems to have expanded their MacroVision code in 7.2, but the basic flag limits have been in there since at least 5.x, since the DVD burning units would recognize the flags to forbid burning a recording to DVD. Again, it was in there, but you didn't see people complaining - because no one uses it.

I think a lot of people might be surprised to find out what copy protection and DRM exists in the devices they own, it just isn't an issue for most folks with standard use.


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## megazone

starbreiz said:


> yeah, zone's like the resident guru in the livejournal tivolovers community. i'm somewhat surprised he doesn't frequent this site.


Well, I actually maintain TiVo Lovers so I try to keep on top of things.


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## azitnay

Guess we know what topic it takes to bring zoner out of the woodwork .

Ack -- now I'm subscribed to this mess.

Drew


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## funkyjunkman

I recently read an article in the Economist about 'new media' and it had a fantastic quote about the consumer's relationship to DRM. It was If consumers even know there's a DRM, what it is, and how it works, we've already failed, says Peter Lee, an executive at Disney. Article Here

So now I've been automatically upgraded to software version 7.2 and I couldn't be more disappointed that people are already having problems with "false positives" (that's Tivo's official line). Example Here

Tivo software bug or not, I did not buy a DVR years ago with a lifetime subscription that could arbitrarily delete my recorded content based on the will of the content provider. This is not what I paid for.


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## dgh

funkyjunkman said:


> If consumers even know there's a DRM, what it is, and how it works, we've already failed, says Peter Lee, an executive at Disney.


I guess everyone failed then because everyone I know knows where DRM can be found. The overall article though is better than that one quote makes it sound. They're talking (in that part) about proliferation of and confusion over codecs and DRM schemes.


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## starbreiz

MegaZone posted last night on lj (but I didn't see it here), that someone is reporting that their PVR picked up on the same flags on the same FOX shows and it wasn't a TiVo: http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/67465#14370254


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## ZeoTiVo

starbreiz said:


> MegaZone posted last night on lj (but I didn't see it here), that someone is reporting that their PVR picked up on the same flags on the same FOX shows and it wasn't a TiVo: http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/67465#14370254





from the link starbreiz posted said:


> The thing is, I was sure that the DRM was only active because of the new ATI Multimedia Center software I had updated just days before the new season of the Family Guy started (This past Sunday). I've never had another television show trigger a broadcast flag before, so I'd be surprised if it was the video card.
> 
> Then again, the only shows that I'd tried to record with that new ATI MMC was The Family Guy and the Simpsons, the same programs that this article refers to, so we could still be screwed. I'll know more when I start recording next Sundway with the old ATI MMC software back on my PC.


 this is a TV record card in a PC and an update of the software used to setup the recordings. I bought an ATI card and software three years ago or so and it definitely had the macrovison license in it for DVDs then as it would pop up when I would have my TV on to see a DVD palyed on the PC. it cut off the payback in case the live composite connection was a VCR I guess. had to keep the TV off until the DVD was playing and then turn on the TV 

Point is a lot of the PC cards already recognize macrovision as well. The only real alternative I have heard to a macrovison enabled device is the open source MythTV running on open source Linux. Wonder if they will become a target like napster at some point though open source is an ephemeral target.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

azitnay said:


> Guess we know what topic it takes to bring zoner out of the woodwork .
> 
> Ack -- now I'm subscribed to this mess.
> 
> Drew


yah, those slashdot links bring in all kinds of posters


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## Justin Thyme

ZeoTiVo said:


> ... The only real alternative I have heard to a macrovison enabled device is the open source MythTV running on open source Linux. Wonder if they will become a target like napster at some point though open source is an ephemeral target.


My wild ass guess/ take on the subject: I think the strategy of the content owners is that the high value content will be in a protected form that to read without a license for the encryption would be theft of technology as well as a violation of DRMA. If they attempted to read content protected in that form, the armies of lawyers would go after all sites distributing MythTV software or source code.

It would get pretty ugly. It may be like killing ants with sledgehammers, but the studios are prepared to hire ant colonies of lawyers. As the studios have said, they are prepared to spend hundreds of millions in such legal fees to protect billions in revenue.

Personally, I don't think the bulk of Myth developers will want to go the in-your-face-DeCSS route. There is no reason to. They can just write it to record 720P or SDI source signals, or play unecrypted HDTV files from the net. How the user gets those files, a 720P component input, or those gets the hacked SDI output signals from an HD Cable or satellite box would be up to someone else.

But it's just a wild ass guess.


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## ZeoTiVo

I looked at MythTV a little bit out of curiosity. the builds already include DVD player which alone has to break DeCSS on Linux. then they tout the DVD ripper included in the build. seems MythTV is already at In-your-macrovison-face mode. and in confirmed violation of DMCA already with that DVD part of the code.


----------



## dgh

parzec said:


> In my opinion, this is a breach of contract in that it is a limitation of the Tivo servie, not an enhancement.


The agreement in my manual from 2000 says "TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time, change, add or remove features..." That seems to cover just about anything.


----------



## megazone

ZeoTiVo said:


> yah, those slashdot links bring in all kinds of posters


I hope you're not implying I read slashdot. ;-)

Slashdot stopped being interesting years ago, too many zealots posting just to hear themselves rant. The initial articles themselves might be interesting, but I find I hear about the same things through other channels anyway. The discussions on the posts are rarely worth looking at Too many zealots. It is easier to have a calm conversation with RMS about Free Software vs Open Source than to get rational comments on /. (And yes, I have had such a conversation with RMS, at Arisia a few years ago.)

Seems like to many people think the world is black and white and haven't had to make decisions due to the realities of business, like it or not. You don't always get to do what you want, and sometimes you have to do things you dislike just to be able to do something you want to do. When you're running a business you have to be responsible to your employees, shareholders, investors, and, yes, the customers. And that means *all* customers, which often means royally pissing off *some* customers. Any time you do A instead of B, someone gets pissed. Any time you do C because you have to to do D, someone gets pissed. If you try to make everyone happy, you never do anything - and then someone gets pissed.

Personally I encourage everyone who is so worked up over this to switch to MythTV. Sell your TiVo and donate the money to charity if you want to take the moral high road. I *guarantee* that it won't hurt TiVo in the long run. Frankly, if you're reading this forum, you're highly unlikely to be in TiVo's core market.

If TiVo ever does something that interferes with my usage, then I can switch as well. Maybe one of the Sony HDTV CableCard DVRs. Or there is a sweet Samsung Blu-ray/DVR that is supposed it hit next year. Heck, I might get one of those just because, anyway. Or I'll build my own MythTV box, it isn't hard for me. But so far I've seen no reason to freak out or ditch TiVo. It still does everything I got it for - more actually - and I don't see that changing. I don't buy into paranoid conspiracy theories. For the past several years people have picked on one thing after another as 'a sign of the end' - and they've all been bull****. When TiVo announced the DVD-R units would allow MacroVision limits on what could be burned, people said that was it for them. Two years later, doesn't look like it. When TiVo put DRM on TiVoToGo a lot of people went ape**** - that hasn't hurt them either, the average user doesn't care.

All the chicken littles are welcome to panic and drop their TiVos because the sky is falling. Personally, I have better things to do that freak out over just another glitch that will be resolved and forgotten like all the others. I may be a geek, but I"m also not arrogant enough to think that the kinds of things geeks get rabid about - like DRM - will matter to Joe and Jane Consumer down at Best Buy. And once this is patched, Joe and Jane will probably never know it is there in the first place. Over a million stand alone TiVo users - and a handful of people have even seen this. Yeah, that's very significant...

Frankly I doubt most of the people threatening to ditch their TiVos will do it. Oh, sure, some will. But most won't - just hollow threats and chest thumping. Very easy to do from behind a keyboard.

I have been disgusted by some of the blogs I've seen in the past week. People posting false information, either deliberately or just out of ignorance. People posting inflamatory statements for no obvious reason other than to stir things up, you'd think they worked for Fox News. Especially the folks who insinuate this is part of some big conspiracy between TiVo and the entertainment industry - some folks need more tinfoil in their hats.

People need to calm down and see how this is resolved, instead of gathering the pitchforks and torches at the drop of a hat.

Of course, I'm probably just being naive expecting level heads and a rational response. I've been online since 1989, I should really know better by now.


----------



## mec1991

megazone said:


> Frankly I doubt most of the people threatening to ditch their TiVos will do it. Oh, sure, some will. But most won't - just hollow threats and chest thumping. Very easy to do from behind a keyboard.
> 
> Snip, snip...
> 
> People need to calm down and see how this is resolved, instead of gathering the pitchforks and torches at the drop of a hat.


Well, in my case the Sony DVR is on pre-order. I cannot see that company rolling over and playing dead like TiVo has.

And hey, storming the castle is too much fun


----------



## piper

mec1991 said:


> Well, in my case the Sony DVR is on pre-order. I cannot see that company rolling over and playing dead like TiVo has.
> 
> And hey, storming the castle is too much fun


I hate to break it to you but Sony are absolutely the very worst company for restricting consumer choice and limiting what you can do with their products.


----------



## dmdeane

megazone said:


> I have been disgusted by some of the blogs I've seen in the past week. People posting false information, either deliberately or just out of ignorance. People posting inflamatory statements for no obvious reason other than to stir things up, you'd think they worked for Fox News. Especially the folks who insinuate this is part of some big conspiracy between TiVo and the entertainment industry - some folks need more tinfoil in their hats.
> 
> People need to calm down and see how this is resolved, instead of gathering the pitchforks and torches at the drop of a hat.
> 
> Of course, I'm probably just being naive expecting level heads and a rational response. I've been online since 1989, I should really know better by now.


Yep. The level of lunacy and paranoia is beyond belief. Not to mention the name calling. One fellow on Slashdot even compared us TiVo Community Forum folks to women suffering from "battered wive's syndrome"; it never occurs to these people that the reason we aren't complaining about being abused by TiVo is because we *haven't* been "abused" by TiVo. But if we fail to buy into their little conspiracy theories, that makes us either "in denial" or "part of the conspiracy", take your pick.


----------



## gonzotek

piper said:


> I hate to break it to you but Sony are absolutely the very worst company for restricting consumer choice and limiting what you can do with their products.


Yep. They have a ton of content, which they'll be very interested in protecting.


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## ZeoTiVo

megazone said:


> I hope you're not implying I read slashdot. ;-)
> 
> Of course, I'm probably just being naive expecting level heads and a rational response. I've been online since 1989, I should really know better by now.


Man I was just kidding you about reading slashdot and For that I got a good, well reasoned post from you 

PS - I hit the arpanet in early 80's at school and I can still recall a forum on Rock Music where people just went off on each other if they dared bad mouth certain bands, etc.. Guess that evolved into slashdot. Less filling, more rant.


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## jmoak

megazone said:


> I have been disgusted by some of the blogs I've seen in the past week. People posting false information, either deliberately or just out of ignorance. People posting inflamatory statements for no obvious reason other than to stir things up, you'd think they worked for Fox News.


Awww, come on mega....

Doncha' know?

_All_ the kewl kids hate Tivo!

The quickest and easiest way to drum up traffic on your blog is to trash Tivo. The more inflammatory you are, the more likely you are to be quoted by "Variety" or "The Hollywood Reporter".

You're looking for truth and integrity??? They're _blogs_, fer cripes sake!!


----------



## megazone

mec1991 said:


> Well, in my case the Sony DVR is on pre-order. I cannot see that company rolling over and playing dead like TiVo has.


Sony has the same Macrovision license as everyone else. And, if you look at Sony's track record, they love DRM and proprietary formats designed to keep people from copying and sharing content. Remember, Sony has Sony Music and Sony Pictures - as well as MGM, etc. For music they've clung to ATRAC for a long time, one reason is that it locks you into limited options - mostly their's. They developed the 'MagicGate' Memory Sticks right off to put copy protection on the media. They've gone after anyone who breaks the copy protection for the PlayStation. They backed region coding and CSS on DVD.

They're the leading developer on Blu-ray, which will have the most advanced DRM/copy protection of any media. Not only are they adopting AACS, but they've added 'BD+' and a ROM mark. BD+ will allow them to update the DRM. So if someone cracks it, like with CSS, then they can release discs with an updated DRM and you have to update your player or it won't play the new discs. That's one of the reasons the entertainment industry is swayed towards BD from HD-DVD - HD-DVD only went with AACS, BD did better on DRM.

Sony doesn't have to cave into the entertainment industry - they *are* the entertainment industry!


----------



## megazone

jmoak said:


> You're looking for truth and integrity??? They're _blogs_, fer cripes sake!!


Yeah, I know, a lot of "Look at me! Look at me!" The best way to get attention is to be an extremist and piss people off.


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## ZeoTiVo

Well I for one think they should just loose all DRM and let us copy whatever we want whnever we want. It should be content our way! I should be allowed to send HBO shows to any friend I choose, I should be allowed to record movies or copy them off of DVD and store them for ever. Any device that stands in my way I will knock over and vow death and destruction for. They should be manly and stand up to the content providers, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

arrrh, it be talk like a pirate day


----------



## kcm

ZealotTiVo said:


> Well I for one think they should just loose all DRM and let us copy whatever we want whnever we want. It should be content our way! I should be allowed to send HBO shows to any friend I choose, I should be allowed to record movies or copy them off of DVD and store them for ever. Any device that stands in my way I will knock over and vow death and destruction for. They should be manly and stand up to the content providers, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.
> 
> arrrh, it be talk like a pirate day


you realize you're not helping the image of TiVo fans, nor your stance, nor your reptuation.. right?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

kcm said:


> you realize you're not helping the image of TiVo fans, nor your stance, nor your reptuation.. right?


I be no caring for come what may, it's the pirate's life for me. So heave ho me matey's and push those 15 dead men off me chest of pirated movies and break out a flask of rum. We sail for the bit torrent, and devil take the hind most.


----------



## rainwater

ZeoTiVo said:


> Well I for one think they should just loose all DRM and let us copy whatever we want whnever we want. It should be content our way! I should be allowed to send HBO shows to any friend I choose, I should be allowed to record movies or copy them off of DVD and store them for ever. Any device that stands in my way I will knock over and vow death and destruction for. They should be manly and stand up to the content providers, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.
> 
> arrrh, it be talk like a pirate day


Actually, I travel a lot and I just want to have my shows on my TiVo when I get home. I don't want to make DVDs, I don't want to transfer shows to my PC, etc. But TiVo is apparently moving away from this possibility, so I'm not sure how useful it will be for me in the future if they start letting more and more stations use this flag.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

rainwater said:


> Actually, I travel a lot and I just want to have my shows on my TiVo when I get home. I don't want to make DVDs, I don't want to transfer shows to my PC, etc. But TiVo is apparently moving away from this possibility, so I'm not sure how useful it will be for me in the future if they start letting more and more stations use this flag.


arrrh , the govt scoundrels at the FCC will nay allow regular channels to fly that flag. It be only the privateers like HBO or Cinemax that trick you into signing in blood when youse hands over your treasure to them. They waves the contract at them scoundrels in the FCC and makes a deal to fly the privateers flag and be able to do as they will with their own content. It be not young Jim TiVo moving away from anything, it be the big rich colonials looking to lay claim to all they can before it be too late.

I have sailed many a day and yet to see this privateer flag, but I steer clear of the HBO waters and the like. There be monsters there.


----------



## rainwater

ZeoTiVo said:


> arrrh , the govt scoundrels at the FCC will nay allow regular channels to fly that flag. It be only the privateers like HBO or Cinemax that trick you into signing in blood when youse hands over your treasure to them. They waves the contract at them scoundrels in the FCC and makes a deal to fly the privateers flag and be able to do as they will with their own content. It be not young Jim TiVo moving away from anything, it be the big rich colonials looking to lay claim to all they can before it be too late.
> 
> I have sailed many a day and yet to see this privateer flag, but I steer clear of the HBO waters and the like. There be monsters there.


I don't even subscribe to any pay channels. However, it scares me that TiVo has given the power to all channels to use this flag. I have no guarantee that my TiVo will not delete my shows. And TiVo has yet to clarify the situation which is more scary than anything that has happened so far.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

rainwater said:


> I don't even subscribe to any pay channels. However, it scares me that TiVo has given the power to all channels to use this flag. I have no guarantee that my TiVo will not delete my shows. And TiVo has yet to clarify the situation which is more scary than anything that has happened so far.


then ye be sailing in safe waters , young Jim TiVo *has not given any power to anyone* they merely be following the treasure map laid out by macrovision and the FCC clonials tell the pay channel privateers they can enforce their license all they want. The FCC colonials also tell the regular channels they be not having tribute enough to fly the privateer flag. That seems clear enough har, har..

Once young Jim TiVo finds out what bilge rat be betraying the captain, they will keel haul him and scuttle his ships.


----------



## ZeoTiVo




----------



## Y-ASK

Crap Zeo!!! STOP IT!! you're cracking me up, I'm at work for christ sake, I'm gonna piss my pants....~~~~~~~~~~~

OhOH!


----------



## pgogborn

kcm said:


> you realize you're not helping the image of TiVo fans, nor your stance, nor your reptuation.. right?


I reckon ZealotTiVo has shown that not every TiVo fan is a humorless member of a cult so narrowly focussed that they do not know what is going on in the rest of the world.

I reckon that helps the image of TiVo fans.


----------



## dgh

Y-ASK said:


> OhOH!


TMI!



kcm said:


> you realize you're not helping the image of TiVo fans, nor your stance, nor your reptuation.. right?


Good thing you cancelled your TiVo service last week so you don't have to be associated with us goofballs. 

Now walk der plank!


----------



## rainwater

ZeoTiVo said:


> then ye be sailing in safe waters , young Jim TiVo *has not given any power to anyone* they merely be following the treasure map laid out by macrovision and the FCC clonials tell the pay channel privateers they can enforce their license all they want. The FCC colonials also tell the regular channels they be not having tribute enough to fly the privateer flag. That seems clear enough har, har..
> 
> Once young Jim TiVo finds out what bilge rat be betraying the captain, they will keel haul him and scuttle his ships.


I'm glad you find it funny. However, the day channels start enforcing macrovision, TiVo is in a world of trouble. They could atleast be honest about what the macrovision flags will be used for. Up until now they have not been honest. Saying it was only for PPV and VOD was an out right lie as far as we know at this point.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

rainwater said:


> I'm glad you find it funny. However, the day channels start enforcing macrovision, TiVo is in a world of trouble. They could atleast be honest about what the macrovision flags will be used for. Up until now they have not been honest. Saying it was only for PPV and VOD was an out right lie as far as we know at this point.


Define channels for us, matey. They we can talk specifics till then you are just lobbing FUD over the port bow and all that be doing is scaring folks needlessly.

and TiVo will honor legal macrovision flags and work to eliminate incorrect positives like this whole thread started with.

Aye, and try a sense of humor on while you are at it.


----------



## rog

Did you hear about that new pirate movie? It's rated arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

What's a pirate's second favorite letter of the alphabet? Eyyyyyyyeeeeeee.


----------



## dgh

rainwater said:


> I'm glad you find it funny. However, the day channels start enforcing macrovision, TiVo is in a world of trouble.


Arrrrg! If they be broadcast, then that be the day them channels join us pirates!

Let me jog yer recollekshin:



Dan203 said:


> There is! anything broadcast over public airwaves is prohibitied from containing any copy protection.


----------



## lajohn27

rainwater said:


> I'm glad you find it funny. However, the day channels start enforcing macrovision, TiVo is in a world of trouble. They could atleast be honest about what the macrovision flags will be used for. Up until now they have not been honest. Saying it was only for PPV and VOD was an out right lie as far as we know at this point.


Ok... ok ok ok.. enough uninformed panic around here. Geez.. you'd think the ship was going down or something..

Truth is.. section 1201(k)(2) of the Copyright Act forbids broadcasters from putting Macrovision on any other programs. Broadcasters are stations that broadcast in the air.. not cable networks, not HBO etc.

Since everyone is claiming this problem on the Simpsons.. it's clearly a foul-up. Its actually not allowed for broadcasters to protect their programs thusly..

So.. jeez.. lighten up already. This is not (even if it were all the conspiracy everyone seems to think it is) .. the end of the world..

Arggggg..

John


----------



## rainwater

lajohn27 said:


> Ok... ok ok ok.. enough uninformed panic around here. Geez.. you'd think the ship was going down or something..
> 
> Truth is.. section 1201(k)(2) of the Copyright Act forbids broadcasters from putting Macrovision on any other programs. Broadcasters are stations that broadcast in the air.. not cable networks, not HBO etc.
> 
> Since everyone is claiming this problem on the Simpsons.. it's clearly a foul-up. Its actually not allowed for broadcasters to protect their programs thusly..
> 
> So.. jeez.. lighten up already. This is not (even if it were all the conspiracy everyone seems to think it is) .. the end of the world..
> 
> Arggggg..
> 
> John


Hey. I agree with you that its a bug somewhere. However, the TiVo software shouldn't allow this to happen since it knows what your cable lineup consists of. The fact that TiVo doesn't respond with any facts or clear things up is what upsets me. Allowing these flags to get in and delete recordings is not acceptable regardless of who's 'fault' it is.


----------



## dgh

rainwater said:


> However, the TiVo software shouldn't allow this to happen since it knows what your cable lineup consists of.


Arrrg, we've covered that one too.

1. TiVo don't always know. Us pirates do crafty things.
2. Liability ifin they get er wrong and ignore a good tag.

Besides, matey, is it TiVo's job to enforce the FCC rules on the broadcasters???? Arrg! That just makes extra work for our little money-losin ship!

When stuff be new there be glitches. Yer rekolect that banner that overran a show? I'm thinkin they'll all work this here one out too.


----------



## geekboy2000

IMO, I don't care if the cause of the flag to be set is the service provider's fault, either accidentally or deliberately. I don't care if TiVo's hand was forced in some way by Macrovision. All I know is that I send my service fee to TiVo, and in the relatively short time that I've had the box (about 7 months), the service is headed in a direction that's more restrictive - not more flexible. I see one red flag, the box is gone. In fact, I'd be surprised to see TiVo as a company still in business in another year, unless they wake up and listen to the subscribers.


----------



## pendragn

geekboy2000 said:


> In fact, I'd be surprised to see TiVo as a company still in business in another year, unless they wake up and listen to the subscribers.


Do you think they aren't listening to their subscribers? What would you have them do that they aren't doing right now? Their hand is forced. You only need to look at ReplayTV to see what happens if you try to fight the content producers.

tk


----------



## MickeS

[q]Truth is.. section 1201(k)(2) of the Copyright Act forbids broadcasters from putting Macrovision on any other programs. Broadcasters are stations that broadcast in the air.. not cable networks, not HBO etc.[/q]

So you'd be fine with not being allowed to keep any of your recordings made from cable channels for longer than 7 days, since it's legal? Clearly, this is not just about PPV and VOD like TiVo has claimed. They have no way of stopping this if it turns out that, say FX or Bravo decided to put this time restriction on the recordings, since TiVo has agreed to the Macrovision license.
What will happen is: A) viewers will be pissed off, B) they will remain pissed off but the majority will watch anyway at a greater inconvenience, C) networks will feel triumphant that they only lost 5% of the audience, but gained control of the content, D) I will let my TiVo collect dust and only watch what I have unwatched on it right now, then start "renting" shows elsewhere instead. 

/Mike


----------



## rainwater

pendragn said:


> Do you think they aren't listening to their subscribers? What would you have them do that they aren't doing right now? Their hand is forced. You only need to look at ReplayTV to see what happens if you try to fight the content producers.
> 
> tk


Their hand is not forced. They could of implemented Macrovision in a much different way than they have. They hacked in Macrovision support without having any support for issues such have already occured. In my opinion is just bad planning/development more than anything.


----------



## megazone

geekboy2000 said:


> In fact, I'd be surprised to see TiVo as a company still in business in another year, unless they wake up and listen to the subscribers.


blah blah blah, this chorus has been sung for YEARS now. And if you only had the box 7 months, that was AFTER the Macrovision announcement, so the info was out there BEFORE you got the box.

What exactly are the subscribers going to do? Most of them are definitely not going to build their own DVR. And the other commercial DVRs have the same Macrovision license and need to support the same flags. So it'd be rock stupid to dump TiVo for another product when you'd get the same restrictions and less functionality.

But then, I never attribute that much intelligence to the knee jerk crowd.

TiVo isn't worried because it will be a level playing field on this note. If everyone has to implement this then it isn't a disadvantage to TiVo. And once they fix this problem most users will never know it is there.


----------



## rog

rainwater said:


> Their hand is not forced. They could of implemented Macrovision in a much different way than they have. They hacked in Macrovision support without having any support for issues such have already occurred. In my opinion is just bad planning/development more than anything.


I don't share all the negative views going around here, mostly because I think all of this fuss started over a bug -- nothing more sinister than that.

However, rainwater has a point here. TiVo apparently didn't do a very good job with their implementation.

<speculation> It has even been suggested that real Macrovision flags have checksums. It doesn't appear that the checksums are being put to use on the TiVo. </speculation>

A bug this serious needs to be fixed, and quick. A representative from TiVo would ideally speak up and tell us this is being fixed.


----------



## dgh

rog said:


> A representative from TiVo would ideally speak up and tell us this is being fixed.


At this point with three reports (I think) and apparently none of those three providing any info to TiVo (as far as I can tell) we may have a while to wait before we even know what "this" really is.

Has anyone actually seen the problem *and* contacted TiVo as requested earlier in the thread?


----------



## rainwater

dgh said:


> At this point with three reports (I think) and apparently none of those three providing any info to TiVo (as far as I can tell) we may have a while to wait before we even know what "this" really is.
> 
> Has anyone actually seen the problem *and* contacted TiVo as requested earlier in the thread?


I think its pretty obvious that there's a problem. TiVo should atleast clarify what the Macrovision tags are to be used for and how they are going to prevent them from being abused. I don't think it will be that difficult for TiVo to contact some people that have seen this problem as it appears to be reported by more than just people on this forum. At this point we have to assume anything can randomly get deleted at any point.


----------



## dgh

So far I've seen three and the only one with a screen shot was for suggestions.

At this point, from this thread, it's not clear that the likelihood of this problem higher than any of these:

Cable failure
Rain fade
Guide error
Affiliate Failure
Power Failure
Disk Crash
Kid with the remote
Adult with the remote
Mysterious season pass failure
IR failure
Serial port failure
Interruption by news/weather event
Flood
Fire

Of course we may learn more in the future, but I'm not worried yet. So far it looks like you may be more likely to die driving home to watch your show than to find it deleted when you arrive.


----------



## jmoak

Argggg... Me tivo plunders me rum when me ain't lookin', Arggg...

Thad's one evil tivo, dere ...... Arggg!

iratesmiley:


----------



## MighTiVo

dgh said:


> So far I've seen three and the only one with a screen shot was for suggestions.
> 
> At this point, from this thread, it's not clear that the likelihood of this problem higher than any of these:
> 
> Cable failure
> Rain fade
> Guide error
> Affiliate Failure
> Power Failure
> Disk Crash
> Kid with the remote
> Adult with the remote
> Mysterious season pass failure
> IR failure
> Serial port failure
> Interruption by news/weather event
> Flood
> Fire
> 
> Of course we may learn more in the future, but I'm not worried yet. So far it looks like you may be more likely to die driving home to watch your show than to find it deleted when you arrive.


Well it apparently showed up on Media Center PCs as well...
http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/67465#14370254
_Just this past Sunday, I was attempting to tape The Simpsons and The Family Guy (Giggiddy-Giggiddy-Goo) and had constant DRM issues exactly as mentioned here. There was a difference though in that I was using my ATI Radeon All-In-Wonder 8500 on my Windows PC, not a Tivo. I was pretty pissed to be prompted that the programs were view only though. Even the portions that did record were repeated frames with V-Sync problems. Very coincidental that I tried only these shows.

I had recently updated my ATI Multimedia Center and video drivers so I figured that the new version (9.08, which is newer than 9.10 somehow) had new DRM features. I uninstalled that crap as quickly as I could._

I heard long ago that Replay had some Macrovision issues, but my 5040 remains the only way I can record content off a DVD so I can return a movie with no late fees when I haven't gotten around to watching a rental.

With TiVo's built in DRM which keeps you from sending content to other households I really don't understand why I can't timeshift a rental DVD just like I can timeshift a PPV. It would also be a great way to reduce wear and tear on those kids DVDs. The TiVo DVD platform should be simple to use to rip a DVD so you can play it back from the hard drive. While there may be the oppotunity for breaking copyright law doing this, there is a substantial legal use as well. A simple warning should be sufficient, heck even encode your TSN on it incase you do start distribution.


----------



## jmoak

MighTiVo said:


> With TiVo's built in DRM which keeps you from sending content to other households I really don't understand why I can't timeshift a rental DVD just like I can timeshift a PPV. It would also be a great way to reduce wear and tear on those kids DVDs.


Because doing so would be just wrong. Thanks to the wonderful dmca we don't have the right to "back up" rental dvd's (we don't own them), even if all we want to do is just watch them once, then delete them.

You'd have to rip the dvd, simply strip out the extra vob info in the files using any of a number of shareware programs found using google, then upload the clean mpeg to your tivo to watch at your leisure.

and that would be just wrong. .....right?

argggg....


----------



## dgh

MighTiVo said:


> I really don't understand why I can't timeshift a rental DVD just like I can timeshift a PPV.


You can't? 

People on this forum have been saying they do that for years. TiVo just reproduces the DVD Macrovision on the output but that's fine unless you have your VCR in between your TiVo and the TV.


----------



## icecow

piper said:


> I hate to break it to you but Sony are absolutely the very worst company for restricting consumer choice and limiting what you can do with their products.


Here's an article in the LA Times about how Sony bought Music and Film businesses, and tried to tie them to their existing electronics. There was inhouse conflict between the hardware branch and the media branch. In short the result was the Media branch making the hardware branch add DRM.. no clear vision of the business model. So the DRM just killed sales. Sony has been hurting over the last few years. Once the de facto electronics king now shares and is dwarfed by other sources of innovation like Silicone Valley.

Here's the link to the article, unfortunately there is registration:
http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-fi-sony18sep18,1,7520543.story?coll=la-headlines-technology

Here's the first section of a three paged article:

Sony Looks for New Ways to Play
The company has struggled to blend its entertainment and electronics units, but its new CEO plans changes.

By Jon Healey and Alex Pham, Times Staff Writers

If any company can find a way to usher entertainment into the digital era, Sony Corp. would appear to be it.

The massive Japanese electronics and entertainment conglomerate owns a movie studio and co-owns a record label, backing blockbuster films such as "Spider-Man" and hit-making artists such as Bruce Springsteen.

ADVERTISEMENT

It invented the Walkman and the compact disc, products that revolutionized the way people listen to music. It builds computers, TVs, stereos, cameras and PlayStations, the world's most popular video game console.

"For a period there, they defined the consumer-electronics space," said Michael Goodman, a senior analyst at Yankee Group in Boston. "They were the quintessential electronics. Their name personified quality. They were a heck of an innovator."

But Sony's efforts to parlay its engineering and entertainment assets into compelling products and services for the Internet Age have yielded little to crow about. In particular, its online music store, downloadable movie service and digital music players have fallen flat in a market primed for new ways to play.

Sony's difficulties highlight the challenges facing the entertainment industry as it tries to find its footing in an era when cheap digital technology gives consumers more power and choices. If the one company on the planet that produces movies, music and games as well as the devices that play them can't figure out how to make them work profitably together, who can?

This week, Sony's new chief executive, Welsh-born Howard Stringer, is expected to announce a shake-up at the 59-year-old icon. It's the latest in a long series of efforts to generate fusion, not fission, from Sony's creative and gadget-making units.

"Silo walls between business units that impede cooperation and communication need to come down," Stringer said when he took control of Sony in June.

Analysts said Stringer would probably outline steps to break down those walls Thursday. They also said Stringer would probably propose significant staff reductions and plant closings as the company struggles with plummeting consumer electronics prices, particularly in the TV segment. But because the diagnosis is easier than the cure, Stringer's plan may initially involve baby steps rather than revolutionary changes.

"There has been a tall curtain between what the entertainment people want and what the consumer electronics guys want," said Rick Doherty, analyst with Envisioneering Group in Seaford, N.Y. "Howard's lowered the curtain several times, but there's still a very big cultural difference, and Howard understands this. He'll work slowly to lower the curtain further over time, but he knows it's not the easiest thing on earth."

Changes Ahead

Stringer gave a foretaste of the changes Wednesday when he created a chief marketing post for the corporation and put an honest-to-goodness marketing whiz in it: Andrew House, one of the executives responsible for making the PlayStation a global phenomenon. Like Stringer, House is from Wales, not Japan.

Yair Landau, vice chairman of Sony Pictures Entertainment, said Stringer's ability to bring factions together makes him the best person at Sony to pull off the task. But it's no mean feat.

"As the technological barriers have fallen away, they've exposed the cultural and political barriers" inside Sony, Landau said. "That's his biggest challenge, bridging those cultural and political barriers."

Sony began the process of reinvention in March, when it shunted its top corporate officers aside in favor of new leaders. In a richly symbolic break from past practice, the board chose the company's first non-Japanese chief executive.

Formally installed in late June, Stringer inherited an idiosyncratic company in which engineers historically competed to outdo each other with the most elegant and powerful gadgets. This infighting was exacerbated by years of distrust and resentment between the electronics and entertainment units.

"When they have interacted, it's been because one division didn't like what another division was doing," Goodman said. "And depending on who won that debate, bad decisions were made."

For years, creating irresistible products in new categories was Sony's stock in trade. It won massive, loyal followings with its Walkman portable music players, its Trinitron color televisions and, more recently, its CyberShot digital cameras and PlayStation game machines.

Although Sony remains king in some important product lines, it is an also-ran in several major, fast-growing arenas, such as flat-panel televisions and MP3 players. What's worse, the company is no longer seen as the leading innovator in consumer electronics. The great leaps forward are just as likely to come from Silicon Valley as from Tokyo.

Meanwhile, the company's financial performance has been lackluster and its stock stuck in neutral. With the electronics unit slumping and its studio riding the Hollywood roller coaster  up some quarters, down in others  the most dependable source of profit has been the PlayStation unit.

sign up if you want to finish article i guess continue article I guess...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

rainwater said:


> I think its pretty obvious that there's a problem. TiVo should atleast clarify what the Macrovision tags are to be used for and how they are going to prevent them from being abused. I don't think it will be that difficult for TiVo to contact some people that have seen this problem as it appears to be reported by more than just people on this forum. At this point we have to assume anything can randomly get deleted at any point.


cmon rainwater this is the old 99.99999999 / 0.00000001 rule. Millions of TiVos and we have a few scattered reports of some specific broadcasters/channels having trouble. TiVo coded this thing up and now that it is in wide release some glitches have shown up. Heck the slow menus and hard drive lockups was more widespread than this. Once TiVo finds some cases of this they can actually dig into and see what exactly is causing the problem they will release a patch. 
The details of how macrovision works and what it is for is out there to be read. TiVo could put out a plain english version and that would be great but it is not like anyone is hiding the info. The details on how they detect a false positive is part of their proprietary code and most likely not worth reading unless you want to try and defeat the macrovison license on a TiVo


----------



## Aflat

1 day late, sorry!


----------



## jones07

pendragn said:


> You only need to look at ReplayTV to see what happens if you try to fight the content producers.
> 
> tk


Word  
Lawyers for the Content producers bleed them and broke them. And once the case got close to going in front of a Judge, they just dropped the case. The Damage to ReplayTV was done.

In my opinion this was done as a lesson to all others. And TiVo watched and learned.


----------



## rainwater

ZeoTiVo said:


> cmon rainwater this is the old 99.99999999 / 0.00000001 rule. Millions of TiVos and we have a few scattered reports of some specific broadcasters/channels having trouble. TiVo coded this thing up and now that it is in wide release some glitches have shown up. Heck the slow menus and hard drive lockups was more widespread than this. Once TiVo finds some cases of this they can actually dig into and see what exactly is causing the problem they will release a patch.
> The details of how macrovision works and what it is for is out there to be read. TiVo could put out a plain english version and that would be great but it is not like anyone is hiding the info. The details on how they detect a false positive is part of their proprietary code and most likely not worth reading unless you want to try and defeat the macrovison license on a TiVo


This is much different than a hardware problem or slow menus. I would rather have slow menus than the potential for my recordings to be deleted. These "glitches" might seem small now, but could become a worse problem later on. What if one day every fox station in the US "accidentily" sets this flag. Because TiVo's implementation isn't very good it will all of a sudden be a huge problem. I don't want to know how they have implemented it. I want to know how they are going to stop these "glitches". I want to know what they are going to do to protect me. All they seem to be worrying about is how they are going to protect themselves. Their PR department should atleast be doing something.


----------



## lajohn27

Their PR department could rush out a press release saying.. what.. "We don't know what's going on but next week we might have an idea and they'll be another press release then?"

Or would you rather they blatantly lied and said they knew exactly what the problem was and it'll be fixed by noon tomorrow?

Patience man.. It's not affecting thousands or even hundreds of users.. it's affecting 1 or 2 shows on "TENS" of users machines.. 

Sheesh.

J


----------



## rainwater

lajohn27 said:


> Their PR department could rush out a press release saying.. what.. "We don't know what's going on but next week we might have an idea and they'll be another press release then?"
> 
> Or would you rather they blatantly lied and said they knew exactly what the problem was and it'll be fixed by noon tomorrow?
> 
> Patience man.. It's not affecting thousands or even hundreds of users.. it's affecting 1 or 2 shows on "TENS" of users machines..
> 
> Sheesh.
> 
> J


I'm sorry but I find it impossible that its only affect 10s of users. But the fact that TiVo has written software that allows every channel in the US to automatically delete our programs is not a good thing. The PR department could atleast admit a mistake and say they are working on it. But apparently, we are stuck with hearing from CS saying that channels are allowed to set this flag so its not a bug.


----------



## dgh

rainwater said:


> These "glitches" might seem small now, but could become a worse problem later on.


We've had the slippery slope argument on everything that has ever happened. Someone might actually slip down one of them someday but we won't know in advance which one it will be. I hope everyone's wearing crampons because it's nasty out there.



rainwater said:


> What if one day every fox station in the US "accidentily" sets this flag.


Then there would finally be a large data set to work with. Likewise we would know that this is something that violates FCC rules instead of a just an obscure software glitch that recognizes a flag where there is none. Sure, it would be an annoying day but it would be awfully nice to take the situation out of obscurity.

Hey, what if every Fox station decided not to broadcast at all? Slide that slope.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

rainwater said:


> I'm sorry but I find it impossible that its only affect 10s of users. But the fact that TiVo has written software that allows every channel in the US to automatically delete our programs is not a good thing. The PR department could atleast admit a mistake and say they are working on it. But apparently, we are stuck with hearing from CS saying that channels are allowed to set this flag so its not a bug.


since as you say TiVo has *not told us what is going on* you sure do make HUGE ASSUMPTIONS and pass them off as certainties. Your postings might carry just a little bit of significance if you were not making such broad strokes as "every channel in the US"

the reality shows us that VERY FEW channels are experiencing this problem and they seem to be local broadcasters that actually have the problem. I doubt anyone is taking your posts seriously anymore.

welcome to my ignore list


----------



## rainwater

ZeoTiVo said:


> since as you say TiVo has *not told us what is going on* you sure do make HUGE ASSUMPTIONS and pass them off as certainties. Your postings might carry just a little bit of significance if you were not making such broad strokes as "every channel in the US"
> 
> the reality shows us that VERY FEW channels are experiencing this problem and they seem to be local broadcasters that actually have the problem. I doubt anyone is taking your posts seriously anymore.
> 
> welcome to my ignore list


I said every channel has the capability to delete programs. I never said they have or will. But I'm just asking that TiVo place safeguards on the software to prevent it on channels that shouldn't be allowed. Call me and idiot or whatever, but to say the software is fine as is, is a huge mistake.


----------



## beejay

rainwater said:


> I said every channel has the capability to delete programs. I never said they have or will. But I'm just asking that TiVo place safeguards on the software to prevent it on channels that shouldn't be allowed. Call me and idiot or whatever, but to say the software is fine as is, is a huge mistake.


Should TiVo respect the flags as the content provider sends them, or try to second-guess whether they are allowed to flag something as protected?

I think they are on safer grounds respecting what is sent and working out errors like they are doing now.


----------



## megazone

rainwater said:


> I said every channel has the capability to delete programs. I never said they have or will. But I'm just asking that TiVo place safeguards on the software to prevent it on channels that shouldn't be allowed.


My understanding is that they're not allowed to. If the flags are there, they must honor them - period. Doesn't matter if the channel isn't supposed to put them there, that's not TiVo's domain. Try this one - you have a cable box feeding the TiVo. You tune the TiVo to the local PBS station and tell it to record. Then you change the cable box over to the PPV event you ordered. The event has flags on it.

TiVo thinks it is recording PBS, not PPV. If TiVo tried to second guess the flags it would not honor them, when it, in fact, should, because it is recording a PPV event legitimately using the flags.

There are ways to fake out RF in the same way, so even when using the internal tuner TiVo should not second guess the flags.

Since this functionality is required for pretty much all recording devices, we'll see more and more of this. If channels screw up, it'll impact more than just TiVo.


----------



## rainwater

megazone said:


> Since this functionality is required for pretty much all recording devices, we'll see more and more of this. If channels screw up, it'll impact more than just TiVo.


Yeah, but if it screws up on most devices that support Macrovision it doesn't delete your recording. It only prevents you from burning it to DVD. I really don't care what Macrovision says. TiVo needs to do something about this themselves for their customers. There are always ways around the macrovision flags. Its not hard to buy a device to strip them. Preventing TiVo from putting in safeguards only discourages users from buying a TiVo and from keeping their TiVo.


----------



## dgh

rainwater said:


> Yeah, but if it screws up on most devices that support Macrovision it doesn't delete your recording.


Actually we've had reports linked from this thread of devices where it won't record at all.



rainwater said:


> It only prevents you from burning it to DVD.


Even that doesn't help if your recorder of choice is a DVD recorder.


----------



## rainwater

dgh said:


> Actually we've had reports linked from this thread of devices where it won't record at all.
> 
> Even that doesn't help if your recorder of choice is a DVD recorder.


I do not know of any hard drive based DVD recorders that delete recordings. However, I know the Sony ones prevent you from burning them to DVD. Seriously, that is not the point though. Prevention of these "glitches" is what TiVo needs to work on.


----------



## dgh

rainwater said:


> I do not know of any hard drive based DVD recorders that delete recordings.


1. Have you checked many? Or is this a handy thing for you to not know? 
2. What about non-hard disk DVD recorders?


----------



## rog

Breaking News this morning... I think the "truth" behind the recent DRM/Macrovision bugs is finally coming to light...



> *Tivo Network Gains Consciousness*
> 
> Unconfirmed sources report that the TIVO network has become conscious. If these reports are true it will be the first time a man made network has gained the ability to think. TIVO technicians are said to be frantically working to communicate with the new entity and understand its new behaviors which are catching many of the system's users by surprise.
> 
> TIVO Inc denies that the network has become conscious and that it is thinking on its own. They insist that the problems users are encountering are because of a bug in the latest version of the software downloaded to the set top boxes. Many users don't believe the company and are demanding more information.
> 
> "Is it possible for a man made network to gain consciousness and take control of its network structure?" asks neural network expert Hans Trapp. "I believe that it is. My experiments with neural networks suggests that if a network gets big enough it could become a thinking entity, under the proper conditions."
> 
> "I first started seeing a difference in my TIVO about three weeks ago." Says long time user Fred Jones, of Palo Alto California. "My mother in law had set my TIVO to record 100 episodes of Golden Girls and the TIVO flat out refused to do it. It then flashed up a message and told me that I was watching too much FOX News and that I should read a newspaper once in a while. It kind of freaked me out. I unplugged it and I haven't had the nerve to start it up again."
> 
> Jim Denney, director of product marketing for TIVO assures Unconfirmed Sources that reports of the TIVO network becoming conscious are an internet fantasy and that their technicians have isolated the bug and will be sending new software to fix the problem.


There you have it!

from: http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/?itemid=1193


----------



## jmoak

smeeked!!


----------



## rainwater

dgh said:


> 1. Have you checked many? Or is this a handy thing for you to not know?
> 2. What about non-hard disk DVD recorders?


1) Well, the Sony ones don't and considering they are about the most restrictive when it comes to DRM I doubt there are many that do.
2) It would be hard for a non-hard disk recorder to delete a program off of the disk if it doesn't have one.


----------



## dgh

rainwater said:


> 2) It would be hard for a non-hard disk recorder to delete a program off of the disk if it doesn't have one.


You're really trying to play up to the "BS" in the title aren't you? 

Or do you really think that a show being deleted from a hard disk after a week is actually more of an inconvenience than not being recorded in the first place? If you actually believe this, you can defeat all Macrovision by deleting all of your season passes. 

What's really interesting is how, for the last few days, all we're talking about in this thread is stuff like this and in that time a fourth (third?) effected person has failed to appear. Maybe the slope isn't as slippery as it looked. Time will tell...


----------



## mec1991

piper said:


> I hate to break it to you but Sony are absolutely the very worst company for restricting consumer choice and limiting what you can do with their products.


Oh well, time will tell....


----------



## rainwater

dgh said:


> You're really trying to play up to the "BS" in the title aren't you?
> 
> Or do you really think that a show being deleted from a hard disk after a week is actually more of an inconvenience than not being recorded in the first place? If you actually believe this, you can defeat all Macrovision by deleting all of your season passes.


First of all, I am not cancelling my service or making rash decisions. All I asked for is for TiVo to safeguard the software to prevent glitches and for TiVo to come out and clarify the situation. I don't think that is asking for a lot. But instead, I have been told that I am some type of idiot and that if I don't worship the ground TiVo walks on then I am stupid.

Btw, I travel a lot, so this deleting after a week 'glitch' would truly affect me if those flags were set on my machine.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

rainwater said:


> I have been told that I am some type of idiot and that if I don't worship the ground TiVo walks on then I am stupid.


everyone agrees that TiVo needs to do all it can to remedy this situation and TiVo itself is here asking for all the info it can get on the situation. It is good feedback to TiVo for you to say TiVo needs to make this stop happening on TiVos, but it is a problem starting with something wrong in the broadcast signal coming to the TiVo- it is not an easy matter to fix this correctly.

it is when you veer off into broad statements like All channels can delete shows off my TiVo It is those broad statements that are not supported by the reality of the situation that people are ragging on you for.

the overreactions and untrue broad statements in this thread are getting picked up all over the place. so people are replying to your posts emphatically in the hopes the overreaction dies down


----------



## dgh

rainwater said:


> But instead, I have been told that I am some type of idiot and that if I don't worship the ground TiVo walks on then I am stupid.


I don't agree with that either. I think you have been overreacting based on the information we have so far. I think that was another overreaction.


----------



## Geoff

I read about halfway through this thread while on the phone with Tivo.

This happened to me. I subscribed to HBO just to watch Rome. Last week's episode got the little red flag next to it -- it will be deleted in a week. 

Right now, this is just an inconvenience. I am 2 or 3 episodes behind, so now I must watch them by Sunday or I'll fall behind. However, were I to travel (like last winter, when I was overseas for 6 weeks on a work assignment), I would be out of luck.

Thus, Tivo becomes less useful to me -- less useful than a VCR. 

I just cancelled HBO. I will not buy another Tivo until this is removed, and I'll start seriously looking into MythTV. (Fortunately, I am a computer type so building my own DVR is feasible.)

I don't care if Tivo is just obeying license requirements. I don't care if abandoning Tivo will hurt them as a company. As a consumer, Tivo just became a significantly less useful product. If Tivo goes out of business because of loss of customers over this issue -- too bad. They should have fought for consumer's fair use rights.

Right now it's just one show. Once it works, of course, it will slowly be more and more shows. I'll get out now and invest in non-restricted technology while it's still possible to acquire it.


----------



## dgh

Geoff said:


> I just cancelled HBO. I will not buy another Tivo until this is removed, and I'll start seriously looking into MythTV. (Fortunately, I am a computer type so building my own DVR is feasible.)


Since you didn't get through the whole thread, you might not have seen the links to other forums where people have already reported this on some of the popular video capture cards that MythTV builders use. You might want to stick with the VCR.


----------



## jmoak

Numerous blogs, internet news sites, local papers and now the Associated Press and Newsweek have picked up the Macrovision/Deletion story and tell us that "Hollywood studios will one day reach into our set-top boxes to restrict the way we record and store movies and programs", with some even saying that this is happening today.

It's been almost two weeks since the first message about this hit the public.

It's getting awful hard to tell my friends that it's still "TV Your Way" when the media is proclaiming "With TiVo, It's Now TV Hollywood's Way, and there's nothing you can do about it".

Has TiVo made any kind of public statement about this, other than in a few posts here? The Wired article by Lucas Graves had a decent explanation from TiVo's Matthew Zinn of what was happening, but it was presented by Mr. Graves as "Has TiVo Forsaken Us?" saying that "TiVo won't let you watch whatever you want, whenever you want."

There have been reports here that these restrictions have appeared in other devices, but no one in the blog-world or the media seems to care about them, only TiVo.

The restricting of syndicated shows and some programs from PBS have done nothing but add fuel to the spreading fire and have discredited Mr Zinn's statement of "the restrictions were limited to pay-per-view and video-on-demand".

Since then, there has been no word from TiVo except in this thread.

Their continued silence is deafening and worrisome, to say the least.

When Mr Zinn was asked if this was just the beginning and if these restrictions were used on programming other than "high value content" (ppv's and the like) what would their reaction be, he replied, "I don't think we would go along with it."

Does TiVo still feel that way? Are they trying to figure out what they can do about it? Do they think they _can_ do anything about it?

Has TiVo made a public statement to the press that simply has not been reported?

Has TiVo simply not said anything at all?

If they have said nothing, Why so quiet?

_Please TiVo, tell us what's going on....._

*LOUDLY*, where everyone can hear!

I almost started a new thread for this, but.......


----------



## MighTiVo

dgh said:


> You can't? [record a DVD to watch it later]
> 
> People on this forum have been saying they do that for years. TiVo just reproduces the DVD Macrovision on the output but that's fine unless you have your VCR in between your TiVo and the TV.


Try it again with the latest release and see what happens...


----------



## dgh

MighTiVo said:


> Try it again with the latest release and see what happens...


I never tried it with any release.


----------



## BobCamp1

dgh said:


> You're really trying to play up to the "BS" in the title aren't you?
> 
> Or do you really think that a show being deleted from a hard disk after a week is actually more of an inconvenience than not being recorded in the first place? If you actually believe this, you can defeat all Macrovision by deleting all of your season passes.
> 
> What's really interesting is how, for the last few days, all we're talking about in this thread is stuff like this and in that time a fourth (third?) effected person has failed to appear. Maybe the slope isn't as slippery as it looked. Time will tell...


The point is that all the FCC fines in the world won't help you get your favorite show back. It's gone. This new "feature" makes Tivo more unreliable than it was before. You don't know if you set a show to record, if it will actually still be there three days later. Excluding hardware failures, this wasn't even an issue before. This is why people are mad.

I'm pretty sure my VCR tapes don't magically blank themselves. I bet if I put one in, it would still play the content I recorded two years ago. Of course, the Feds are itching to get rid of OTA analog by the end of next year. Which will in turn restrict how I use my VCR.

(On a side note, every time there is a new feature added to Tivo, it seems there is a bug with it. Remember those pop-up adds that were only supposed to appear while FF'ing through commericals? Oops. You'd think the Tivo s/w engineers would have learned their lesson by now. )

All this will do in the end is drive more people to grab content illegally, or make illegal hacks to their PVRs. Or buy illegal boxes to block out this new form of copy protection. Count me in.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

BobCamp1 said:


> The point is that all the FCC fines in the world won't help you get your favorite show back. It's gone. This new "feature" makes Tivo more unreliable than it was before. You don't know if you set a show to record, if it will actually still be there three days later. Excluding hardware failures, this wasn't even an issue before. This is why people are mad.
> 
> I'm pretty sure my VCR tapes don't magically blank themselves. I bet if I put one in, it would still play the content I recorded two years ago. Of course, the Feds are itching to get rid of OTA analog by the end of next year. Which will in turn restrict how I use my VCR.
> 
> (On a side note, every time there is a new feature added to Tivo, it seems there is a bug with it. Remember those pop-up adds that were only supposed to appear while FF'ing through commericals? Oops. You'd think the Tivo s/w engineers would have learned their lesson by now. )
> 
> All this will do in the end is drive more people to grab content illegally, or make illegal hacks to their PVRs. Or buy illegal boxes to block out this new form of copy protection. Count me in.


now all of that is reasonably stated and I pretty much agree with it. except that this forum is not the average consumer but is filled with people who will know how to block this stuff in analog and eventually in digital. so 99% of consumers will deal with this as is, to them it is just Television for God's sake


----------



## GrondramB

Justin Thyme said:


> Tivo's position is correct- this is not a battle they should or could or even need to fight for the consumer.


It depends on what the competition is doing. I am looking for replacements for my DirectTivos but could be pushed away from Tivo brand DVRS if retaining programs recorded with Tivo becomes an issue and there are other DVRs that don't do this.


----------



## dgh

BobCamp1 said:


> I'm pretty sure my VCR tapes don't magically blank themselves. I bet if I put one in, it would still play the content I recorded two years ago. Of course, the Feds are itching to get rid of OTA analog by the end of next year. Which will in turn restrict how I use my VCR.


In addition, you're probably talking about an old VCR. Remember, a couple of weeks ago, your TiVo wouldn't do this either, and a Series 1 TiVo still wont. It's quite possible that future VCRs might simply not record the show at all. (If you care about future VCRs )



BobCamp1 said:


> (On a side note, every time there is a new feature added to Tivo, it seems there is a bug with it. Remember those pop-up adds that were only supposed to appear while FF'ing through commericals? Oops. You'd think the Tivo s/w engineers would have learned their lesson by now. )


Yeah, after 30 years, I'd like to think that I'd learned never to put bugs in things either. But I haven't. Neither has any other human endeavor that I am aware of.

That's not to suggest that we engineers shouldn't (or don't) strive for that.


----------



## Shaolin Dogs

jmoak said:


> Does TiVo still feel that way? Are they trying to figure out what they can do about it? Do they think they _can_ do anything about it?
> 
> Has TiVo made a public statement to the press that simply has not been reported?
> 
> Has TiVo simply not said anything at all?
> 
> If they have said nothing, Why so quiet?


I think the reaction is captured in the article you referenced:

_Elliot Sloan, a TiVo spokesman, called the red-flag incident a "glitch" and said it affected only a handful of customers. "It's a non-story," Sloan said._

I think TiVo wants it to go away.


----------



## Justin Thyme

GrondramB said:


> justin thyme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tivo's position is correct- this is not a battle they should or could or even need to fight for the consumer.
> 
> 
> 
> It depends on what the competition is doing. I am looking for replacements for my DirectTivos but could be pushed away from Tivo brand DVRS if retaining programs recorded with Tivo becomes an issue and there are other DVRs that don't do this.
Click to expand...

I think at the point in the discussion when I made that statement, I was unaware that Tivo was bound by interlocking license agrements. As I and many others have often repeated in this thread since that realization, because they need a CSS agreement to do a DVD recorder Tivo, and because CSS requires the manufactuer to be a macrovision licensee, Tivo and other CE manufacturers really have no choice. That means that since there are not many CE vendors that aren't macrovision licensees, this is not a battle where the consumer can simply go to competitor products. A cunning plan as Baldrick would say. But is it?

In actuality, it is pointless for the content people to use this flag with the kind of abandon that many consumers seem to fear. That was the point Zinn made in his Wired interview. All consumers will do is buy the workaround gizmos that I mentioned to bypass the flag. If the studios escalate, then people will just start buying machines from Brazil and China that have zero DRM on them. Do the studios want to get consumers into the habit of downloading their video from "free" pirate video sites?

Heck no. So even if it were legal to use this flag as broadly as people fear the content guys want to, it is unlikely they will want to risk forcing users into this sort of behavior.


----------



## davezatz

Sorry for the crosspost, but this is a major misquote of epic proportions... well maybe only in our little Tivo community. But I do want everyone to know what Cory of BoingBoing posted is not what I said... I may not always support what Tivo does but I am always honest. He created a scenario for me which doesn't exist... 

Here's what I posted after we exchanged a few emails:


> I hope I'm not about to be misquoted by Cory of BoingBoing... he was asking me some questions about Tivo service. Specifically he wanted to know if the ability to restrict shows (the Macrovision stuff) was new since I bought my Tivo. I told him I believed it was included as a system update which led to a conversation about Tivo's service agreement - Tivo can update a box at any time in any way and if we don't like it we can cancel... however, cancelling may now result in this $150 fee. I tried to keep things neutral and factual, but he seemed fixated on Tivo's ability to update my box after I pruchased it. I'm not sure he understood I want most of the updates lke TTG and PC->TiVo.


Here's the original snippet:


> David Zatz, a recent TiVo purchaser, decided to cancel his TiVo service. After all, he'd bought a device that could record all shows, not one that could record all shows save those that some paranoid Hollywood exec, overzealous broadcaster, or fumble-fingered technician gave him permission to record. TiVo had broken his device and he didn't want to keep using it.
> 
> But when he called TiVo, he found out that under the terms of his "agreement" with TiVo (e.g., the crap he clicked through when get got set up), he was obliged to pay a $150 "early cancellation" fee.


Here's my email back:


> Hi Cory,
> 
> I definitely think the new $150 terminatin fee is worth mentioning and appreciate the link back. But I wanted to clear some things up... I didn't just buy Tivo, in fact I've had boxes for many years. Also I didn't call to cancel, but I have noticed the modified service agreement indicating a cancellation penalty.
> 
> The scenario you describe is entirely conceiveable (someone could buy a Tivo this month, receive a system update which adds the Macrovision copy protection restrictions, try to cancel, and get hit with a cancellation fee) but it didn't happen to me and I'm not aware of anyone documenting it.
> 
> I hope you can make the neccessary modifications to your article.
> 
> Thanks!
> Dave Zatz


----------



## Turtleboy

Thanks for posting that David. I just saw the Boing Boing piece and was about to post about what a ********* you were, but I guess I'll hold off.

For now.


----------



## Y-ASK

Well I too have come to the realization that Tivo has more at stake than what someone with a limited knowledge of the subject matter would think concerning this issue. It's easy to say that Tivo should just can this whole macrovision stuff and pass the signal through as it did before. But Tivo must protect itself if it is going to move forward with forward thinking ideas such as Tivo-To-Go and DVC recorders, etc. I get it now. Now let's just hope that the copyright holders don't go crazy with this stuff. I can understand a flag for Pay-Per-View or VOD, let's hope that's as far as it goes.

Y-ASK


----------



## ZeoTiVo

there is a thread about a minimum one year agreemnt that also talks of the early cancelation fee. I can see the arguments for it but think the timing of it stinks and the whole idea will sell less TiVos. anyhow too bad for you Dave. I will be happy if my name never appears in BoingBoing. It really shows how someone with an agenda can post any kind of crap now adays and have some read it as "news" or even give it the respect of an "editorial". Neitehr of which that posting in BoingBoing should ever get. :down:


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Y-ASK said:


> Well I too have come to the realization that Tivo has more at stake than what someone with a limited knowledge of the subject matter would think concerning this issue. It's easy to say that Tivo should just can this whole macrovision stuff and pass the signal through as it did before. But Tivo must protect itself if it is going to move forward with forward thinking ideas such as Tivo-To-Go and DVC recorders, etc. I get it now. Now let's just hope that the copyright holders don't go crazy with this stuff. I can understand a flag for Pay-Per-View or VOD, let's hope that's as far as it goes.
> 
> Y-ASK


so far the FCC rulings do not let it go any further. And yes I as well can put up with some errors and glitches along the way to a better feature set :up:


----------



## rog

davezatz said:


> Sorry for the crosspost, but this is a major misquote of epic proportions... well maybe only in our little Tivo community. But I do want everyone to know what Cory of BoingBoing posted is not what I said... I may not always support what Tivo does but I am always honest. He created a scenario for me which doesn't exist...


I regret to inform you that your misquote is now making the rounds over at Slashdot:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=163291&cid=13640860

Here's the link to the story itself on Slashdot (which is basically just a link to the BetaNews article):

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/24/213219&tid=129

Good luck getting your version of the story out there on Slashdot. The trolls and lame meta-mods will probably bury any attempts to correct the misinformation.  Sorry Dave, that sucks! I'm hereby boycotting BoingBoing.


----------



## davezatz

rog said:


> Good luck getting your version of the story out there on Slashdot. The trolls and lame meta-mods will probably bury any attempts to correct the misinformation.  Sorry Dave, that sucks! I'm hereby boycotting BoingBoing.


Yeah, I doubt there's anything I can do to correct story at this point... It's pretty f-ed up though - I've been misquoted and misunderstood before, but never has an entire scenario been fabricated with me in the lead role like that. Nutty! He did slightly alter the story after my email (which I posted here) - I'm no logner a *new* customer and I didn't call to cancel, unfortuantely the rest of the fictional account exists.

Oh well, like all things it will blow over - I just wanted to make sure folks on the board here were aware that I didn't say those things. I'll be boycottng Boing Boing too - if for no other reason than I have no reason to believe any of their stories are factual.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> Yeah, I doubt there's anything I can do to correct story at this point... It's pretty f-ed up though - I've been misquoted and misunderstood before, but never has an entire scenario been fabricated with me in the lead role like that. Nutty! He did slightly alter the story after my email (which I posted here) - I'm no logner a *new* customer and I didn't call to cancel, unfortuantely the rest of the fictional account exists.
> 
> Oh well, like all things it will blow over - I just wanted to make sure folks on the board here were aware that I didn't say those things. I'll be boycottng Boing Boing too - if for no other reason than I have no reason to believe any of their stories are factual.


yes, I will stick to the more reputable blog sites and /.


----------



## morrsstt

I have skimmed all of these replies but hoping someone can help me out. Last week I got the red flags and now can only keep stuff for 7 days and I understand its a copyright thing. Is this for real and will it always from now on be like this? What I really dont get is why just popped up and why doesn't my friend who lives only a few blocks away not have this on her TIVO? If this sticks, I am not goign to want to keep TIVO which I really do like... Thanks for any information.


----------



## gonzotek

morrsstt said:


> I have skimmed all of these replies but hoping someone can help me out. Last week I got the red flags and now can only keep stuff for 7 days and I understand its a copyright thing. Is this for real and will it always from now on be like this? What I really dont get is why just popped up and why doesn't my friend who lives only a few blocks away not have this on her TIVO? If this sticks, I am not goign to want to keep TIVO which I really do like... Thanks for any information.


If the flag appeared on a program that was NOT DVD, VHS, VOD, or PPV, you should call customer service and report the problem.
http://www.tivo.com/copyprotection


> Like most television reception equipment, TiVo DVRs recognize Macrovision copy protection technology applied by program providers. This copy protection may be applied to certain limited categories of programming (such as Pay Per View, Video On Demand, DVD or VHS sources) and requires TiVo to respond in a pre-defined manner. Macrovision copy protection rules include:
> 
> Copy Never - This content is not allowed to be recorded by a TiVo DVR.
> 7 Day Unlimited - These programs can be recorded and viewed as many times as you like within 7 days of their original recording date
> 7 Day / 24 Hours - These programs can be stored for up to 7 days but once you begin watching the show, you must complete viewing within 24 hours.
> Program providers decide which programs within the limited categories will have Macrovision copy protection. If you believe that you are getting copy protection messages incorrectly (on programs from sources other than the limited categories listed above) please call us and let us know. Questions regarding the use of copy protection on Pay Per View, Video on Demand, DVD or VHS content would be more effectively directed to the copyright holders themselves, not TiVo Customer Support.


Contact TiVo


----------



## hfwarner3

Well, after recording 40 hours of TV off of both local and cable channels through Comcast Digital Starter package onto my standalone TiVo Series 2 running software version 7.2, I have not encountered a single red flag. 

Almost all the TiVo subscribers are still going fine without issue. I just thought I would remind everyone.


----------



## vegaspl

This is the first I have heard of this problem. As you can see from my Signature I have multi TiVo's all with expanded capacity. This primarily so I don't have to be so concerned about how long I keep any recordings.

Example: Last Season I recorded the entire seasons of "24" and "Alias". Intending to watch them in marathon state.

I hoped to do even more this season. Do I have to be concerned????


----------



## davezatz

vegaspl said:


> I hoped to do even more this season. Do I have to be concerned????


It is supposed to work by only placing limitations on Pay-Per-View or HBO type content. The type of limitation is supposedly chosen by the content owner and/or those responsible for sending the transmission.

Network shows like 24 and Alias *should not be blocked.* Most of the flags people have encountered so far seem to be glitches, with the Tivo software and/or the signal the Tivo receives.

This is going to start hitting all sorts of services/devices as we move forward in the DRM world... Tivo just has the misfortune of being high profile and implementing it earlier than others - combined with what I believe is some quality control issues.


----------



## mrpaulus

I have not seen any red flag icons displayed within the Tivo menus, however I believe that one of my upcoming recordings will be "protected", and is slated to be deleted after 48 hours. *Is this true/expected?*

The detail screen for a first-run Family Guy to be recorded on 10/2 at 9:00PM says:
"Keep Until: Tue 10/4 9:00PM".

However, I have set the Family Guy first-run season pass to "Keep Until I delete".

- Space is not an issue
- No other Family Guys are set to record that week.

I have screen shots but tivocommunity will not let post URLs until I have five posts.


----------



## dgh

mrpaulus said:


> *Is this true/expected?*


No, the Macrovision flags are for 7 days, 2 days is a default TiVo keep date. Also Macrovision is transmitted in the TV signal so your TiVo wouldn't know about it in advance.


----------



## mrpaulus

dgh said:


> 2 days is a default TiVo keep date.


I appreciate your speedy reply. Any reason why Tivo would be saying that it'll delete my Family Guy episode after two days? I set up the Season Pass earlier today as "Keep Until I delete"... perhaps the To-Do list has not been updated?

Thanks,
Paul


----------



## dgh

Perhaps. If it still looks like that tomorrow, you might want to post in the help forum.


----------



## beejay

mrpaulus said:


> I appreciate your speedy reply. Any reason why Tivo would be saying that it'll delete my Family Guy episode after two days? I set up the Season Pass earlier today as "Keep Until I delete"... perhaps the To-Do list has not been updated?
> 
> Thanks,
> Paul


I don't think that is being recorded under a season pass that is KUID. Could you have changed something to make that a separate recording? (Does it have one check or two in the To Do list?)

Keep in mind that TiVo will not delete it even after the two days pass...unless it needs the space for other recordings you have requested.


----------



## Havoc_Forever

Ok I am having a similar problem; however I don't see a red flag. Lets say I had a show TiVo picked like Star Trek; it says it will be deleted exactly 2 days after it recorded if I set to Keep Till it will actually delete it at an earlier time! If I say Keep till I delete, it deletes it right then. Can anyone tell me whats going on?


----------



## rog

Havoc_Forever said:


> Ok I am having a similar problem; however I don't see a red flag. Lets say I had a show TiVo picked like Star Trek; it says it will be deleted exactly 2 days after it recorded if I set to Keep Till it will actually delete it at an earlier time! If I say Keep till I delete, it deletes it right then. Can anyone tell me whats going on?


Hello and welcome to the board!

I think you may be a bit confused about the way the TiVo works even without Macrovision flags... in any case, you've certainly confused me!

Part of the symptoms you describe are normal if your TiVo is getting close to its capacity. For example, if you mark a show as "Keep 2 days", it is still possible that the show will be deleted earlier if you have other shows to record but you're out of space.

What doesn't make any sense to me is the fact that you say "Keep till I delete... deletes it right then". That doesn't sound right at all. It doesn't sound like normal TiVo behavior OR a Macrovision thing.

Can you elaborate at all?


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## Havoc_Forever

I have had my TiVo for about a year and it it started this behavior this sunday I go to "Keep untill I delete" and for some reason it just deletes it right then in there, I checked to make sure I didn't click on "Delete Now" and I didn't, and whats more baffeling is when I increase the save time it begins to subtract time for example: lets say its set to delete a show on friday I set to delete on Sunday, when i go back to see if it set it now says it will delete on Thursday. I have never had a problem before and I don't think its a storage issue because I have an 80G and it has almost nothing on it.


----------



## rog

Havoc_Forever said:


> I have had my TiVo for about a year and it it started this behavior this sunday I go to "Keep untill I delete" and for some reason it just deletes it right then in there, I checked to make sure I didn't click on "Delete Now" and I didn't, and whats more baffeling is when I increase the save time it begins to subtract time for example: lets say its set to delete a show on friday I set to delete on Sunday, when i go back to see if it set it now says it will delete on Thursday. I have never had a problem before and I don't think its a storage issue because I have an 80G and it has almost nothing on it.


Wow. I've been reading this forum for a while now (spending way too much time here!), and I've never seen this one. What you describe is really bizarre.

Is it a modded TiVo? Or was it 80 GB (80 hours) out of the box?

I'm pretty much out of ideas. Have you tried contacting support yet?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

rog said:


> Wow. I've been reading this forum for a while now (spending way too much time here!), and I've never seen this one. What you describe is really bizarre.
> 
> Is it a modded TiVo? Or was it 80 GB (80 hours) out of the box?
> 
> I'm pretty much out of ideas. Have you tried contacting support yet?


yes, this is not a Macrovision issue or even a properly working TiVo or even a hard drive issue.

eitehr the poster is not relaying what he is seeing/doing to us completely or his TiVo software has gone way belly up. I too suspect a mod gone sideways.

the underground forum is the place if that is the case.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

a report from an actual experience filled with actual details of what actually happened in one case on actual macrovison flags actually set in error by an actual broadcaster

it is actually in this thread
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=262692


----------



## Stormspace

ZeoTiVo said:


> a report from an actual experience filled with actual details of what actually happened in one case on actual macrovison flags actually set in error by an actual broadcaster
> 
> it is actually in this thread
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=262692


Actually?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Stormspace said:


> Actually?


<Donny Baker>I swear to God it is , man</Donny Baker>


----------



## J9 Kkundog

We had 3 red flags 2 weeks ago none since , I do belive it was a mistake .

I have a feeling this red flag thing is the first step in a deal with Netflex .

Just think how great it would be to go to the netflex web site log on pick a movie
send it to your Tivo and yes i would see why they would need the red flag.

I saw another post about a deal with Netflex and Tivo  I hope its true.


----------



## backspaces

[Excuse a cross post from the DVD Recorder Thread .. didn't know about this one]

Well, imagine my surprise when I recorded the PBS Bob Dylan special yesterday .. and went to burn it to DVD for archival purposes .. and found that it was forbidden due to copywrite protection.

I don't get it. If I had simply copied it to VHS or DVD, no problem. But TiVo? Yup .. can't do.

I'm thinking pretty seriously about returning the RS-TX60. Yes, its a pain to have to use a vanilla DVD/VHS combo, but at least I'm in control.

Is there any way to predict which programs are copy protected? I could at least copy them directly rather than using TiVo.

Anyone else upset by this?


----------



## jmoak

backspaces said:


> Anyone else upset by this?


I feel for ya, but I recorded it just fine.

Where are you and did anyone else in your area have this same problem?

In this thread simonalope had the same kind of problem and got it fixed.

Good Luck!


----------



## simonalope

backspaces said:


> I don't get it. If I had simply copied it to VHS or DVD, no problem. But TiVo? Yup .. can't do.


Actually, if there had been authentic Macrovision in the signal, just about any recent VCR would have reacted to the Macrovision by introducing huge video artifacts in the recording. When one of my channels had Macrovision in its signal due to a hardware problem at my cable provider (go read my thread, linked by *jmoak* ), all the test VHS recordings I made off that channel had color fade in/out, vertical interference bars, and occasionally the signal would just cut out entirely. This was using a 6-year old Sony VCR and with the cable signal going straight to the VCR - no TiVo involved.
Macrovision copy-protection is *not* limited to TiVo.


----------



## backspaces

jmoak said:


> I feel for ya, but I recorded it just fine.
> 
> Where are you and did anyone else in your area have this same problem?
> 
> In this thread simonalope had the same kind of problem and got it fixed.
> 
> Good Luck!


I think you're right .. I noticed the same problem last night while recording another PBS program, their pledge drive (hardly likely to be protected!). I checked to see if I could burn it to DVD and got the same message.

So I'll check into this, testing other channels as well, and hopefully have another happy ending.

I live in Santa Fe, NM, and don't know other folks with TiVo/DVD combos, but I'll ask around.

Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## backspaces

simonalope said:


> Actually, if there had been authentic Macrovision in the signal, just about any recent VCR would have reacted to the Macrovision by introducing huge video artifacts in the recording. When one of my channels had Macrovision in its signal due to a hardware problem at my cable provider (go read my thread, linked by *jmoak* ), all the test VHS recordings I made off that channel had color fade in/out, vertical interference bars, and occasionally the signal would just cut out entirely. This was using a 6-year old Sony VCR and with the cable signal going straight to the VCR - no TiVo involved.
> Macrovision copy-protection is *not* limited to TiVo.


That's a good point, I was not fully understanding the protection scheme. I was thinking about the recent "broadcast bit" that would signal to the TiVo to not allow burning to DVD. If the macrovision is actually in the broadcast .. it *would* act as you say. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

backspaces said:


> That's a good point, I was not fully understanding the protection scheme. I was thinking about the recent "broadcast bit" that would signal to the TiVo to not allow burning to DVD. If the macrovision is actually in the broadcast .. it *would* act as you say. Thanks for clarifying.


I would highly reccomend you send a PM (private message) to TiVoPony in this forum as well with what info you have. He is an employee of TiVo and helped out simonalope. Just click on the members List (black text at top of the page) navigate to T - TiVoPony and click on PM button. He can really help you out.


----------



## simonalope

backspaces said:


> That's a good point, I was not fully understanding the protection scheme. I was thinking about the recent "broadcast bit" that would signal to the TiVo to not allow burning to DVD. If the macrovision is actually in the broadcast .. it *would* act as you say. Thanks for clarifying.


Yeah, I'm probably not phrasing this in the most technically correct way, but Macrovision is basically a certain "signature" of artificial jumps in the brightness information. The VCR tries to compensate for the changes, but they're too fast for it to be able to keep up, causing the video image to get all funky. Just about any TV or modern recording device (like a TiVo) can ignore the pulses and still give you a clean picture, but the signature is still there and can thus warn the device that the transmission should be copy-protected. 
I got to take a look at the signal with and without Macrovision applied on some kind of fancy oscilloscope - it was rather cool, and you can immediately see the difference.


----------



## groggynod2

First of all thank God for backups so I can use my TiVo the way it was when I bought it brand new and half working the way I wanted it too knowing that it wont take too much to make it work the way I want.

Second after hearing about this macrovision and having my TiVo broken by TiVo with 7.2 "Upgrade" (downgrade really) I'm going to cancel my TiVo dis-service. I would imagine this Macrovision can easily be circumvented if you dont use the TiVo dis-service and use S-video or whatever other A/v cables the built in "Manually Record TIme/Channel" feature (TiVo Central>> Pick Programs to Record>> Record by Time or Channel>> Manually Record TIme/Channel) built into the OS in the first place so that you are not subject to Big Brother accidentally or purposely deleting content that you are paying for more than once I might add. After aying a monthly cable service fee (unless you are picking up free airwaves) plus renting the box and the remote and paying for the TiVo dis-service totalling a monthly cost of well over $70 just for the basic cable service not to mention digital or HD and the the cost of the TiVo just to have it broken after spending hours getting it to work the way I want. It almost seems like I should have spent the money on an HDTV tuner card and used it in conjunction with Windows seeing as how all the hacks and adding and removing hard drives, hardware and learning linux (not that learning linux is a bad thing) that are required to make the unit run properly. The only redeeming qualities are the fact the TiVo is a standalone unit for the most part and with the service makes it easy to record and watch shows well used to anyways before they let Big Brother step in. A majority of us are paying for these services only to have our rights as a consumer stripped by the people who we are making rich?? I dont like the sound of that but thats the reality of it. Wheres the EFF ( Electronic Frontier Foundation do a google serach in case you dont know) when you need them? We may be better off giving them our $12.95 a month seeing as how they will actually fight for our rights as a consumer considering the government wont and they take money right out of our paychecks. "We the people" are supposed to be the government anyways and cant make anything happen about this television blasphemy yet. We the relatively poor masses work daily to pay for these conveniences only to have them restricted or taken away while we make the providers richer? We need to take the power back. TiVo fix the problem my serial port worked before the upgrade to make the daily calls now after version 7.2 it doesnt is that DRM? Where is CRM? Consumer Right Management we dont get that even though we are paying for this two and three times over after cable, tivo, and tax. We have to create our own CRM. TiVo fix the problem dont make us the enemy this a mutual symbiotic relationship you need us we need you dont let the broadcasters and TV stations bully you. The TiVo community will rise up in support of you fighting the Macrovision.

Nuff Said
Excelsior


----------



## lajohn27

Wonderful plan excelsior.. except that your box.. (presumeably a Series 2) won't record manually without the TIVO service.

If I recall correctly.. no series 2 box has a version of the software that will allow manual recordings without service.. so all the backups in the world aren't going to change your situation.

May I suggest a better plan? Wait to cancel your service till shows are actually red-flagged on your box. You may a long wait. 

Approximately 20 people in about 4 cities have so far reported red-flags.. That's it. It's not happening all over the place and it *is* clearly a mistake. 


IF you actually do have a red-flagged show on your box already (something I highly doubt) Send a PM to simonalope.. to confirm this but he was able to get the red-flag problem solved in his market by coordinating communications directly with the TIVO employees in this forum. 

On the other hand.. if you're in a rush to dump the TIVO service, lemme know.. maybe I can take advantage of your silly hastiness and pick up some of your boxes cheap. All mine still work fine and I could always use a couple for spare parts or backups.

J


----------



## ZeoTiVo

groggynod2 said:


> Second after hearing about this macrovision and having my TiVo broken by TiVo with 7.2 "Upgrade" (downgrade really) I'm going to cancel my TiVo dis-service. I would imagine this Macrovision can easily be circumvented if you dont use the TiVo dis-service and use S-video or whatever other A/v cables the built in "Manually Record TIme/Channel" feature (TiVo Central>> Pick Programs to Record>> Record by Time or Channel>> Manually Record TIme/Channel) built into the OS in the first place so that you are not subject to Big Brother accidentally or purposely deleting content


 Macrovision - google it in case you don't know about it. Or read this very thread you posted in to find out why you are so completely wrong.

I won't even go into the rest of your call to revolution


----------



## mec1991

groggynod2 said:


> First of all thank God for backups so I can use my TiVo the way it was when I bought it brand new and half working the way I wanted it too knowing that it wont take too much to make it work the way I want.
> 
> Second after hearing about this macrovision and having my TiVo broken by TiVo with 7.2 "Upgrade" (downgrade really) I'm going to cancel my TiVo dis-service. I would imagine this Macrovision can easily be circumvented if you dont use the TiVo dis-service and use S-video or whatever other A/v cables the built in "Manually Record TIme/Channel" feature (TiVo Central>> Pick Programs to Record>> Record by Time or Channel>> Manually Record TIme/Channel) built into the OS in the first place so that you are not subject to Big Brother accidentally or purposely deleting content that you are paying for more than once I might add. After aying a monthly cable service fee (unless you are picking up free airwaves) plus renting the box and the remote and paying for the TiVo dis-service totalling a monthly cost of well over $70 just for the basic cable service not to mention digital or HD and the the cost of the TiVo just to have it broken after spending hours getting it to work the way I want. It almost seems like I should have spent the money on an HDTV tuner card and used it in conjunction with Windows seeing as how all the hacks and adding and removing hard drives, hardware and learning linux (not that learning linux is a bad thing) that are required to make the unit run properly. The only redeeming qualities are the fact the TiVo is a standalone unit for the most part and with the service makes it easy to record and watch shows well used to anyways before they let Big Brother step in. A majority of us are paying for these services only to have our rights as a consumer stripped by the people who we are making rich?? I dont like the sound of that but thats the reality of it. Wheres the EFF ( Electronic Frontier Foundation do a google serach in case you dont know) when you need them? We may be better off giving them our $12.95 a month seeing as how they will actually fight for our rights as a consumer considering the government wont and they take money right out of our paychecks. "We the people" are supposed to be the government anyways and cant make anything happen about this television blasphemy yet. We the relatively poor masses work daily to pay for these conveniences only to have them restricted or taken away while we make the providers richer? We need to take the power back. TiVo fix the problem my serial port worked before the upgrade to make the daily calls now after version 7.2 it doesnt is that DRM? Where is CRM? Consumer Right Management we dont get that even though we are paying for this two and three times over after cable, tivo, and tax. We have to create our own CRM. TiVo fix the problem dont make us the enemy this a mutual symbiotic relationship you need us we need you dont let the broadcasters and TV stations bully you. The TiVo community will rise up in support of you fighting the Macrovision.
> 
> Nuff Said
> Excelsior


Dude, it's just television. Chill. If you want to lead a revolution at least pick a worthwhile target. Like not being able to phone any chain pharmacy without going though a maze of a phone answering system and then being put on hold for 10 minutes just to ask if your blood pressure refill is ready to be picked up. 

I am firmly convinced that businesses despise their customers. TiVo is no different from anyone else.


----------



## starbreiz

mec1991 said:


> Dude, it's just television. Chill. If you want to lead a revolution at least pick a worthwhile target.


 :up:



mec1991 said:


> I am firmly convinced that businesses despise their customers. TiVo is no different from anyone else.


I think TiVo is one of the good guys, but their hands are tied.


----------



## groggynod2

Yes I have Series 2 TiVo Lajohn 27. If you read my post I left specific instructions on how to manually record shows WITHOUT having TiVo service just walk through the steps and use S-video or any other A/V cables except for coaxial (sorry I left that out) granted you dont get the channel info and title of the show but it works just like setting a VCR. Macrovision-googled and disliked even more. Like I said in my original posting Thank God for backups and Macrovision is attempting to thwart that ability. What is so wrong with keeping archival backups of your paid for content? And for that matter what is wrong with keeping a second archival backup at relaitive or friends house in case of a catastrophe at home such as fire, earthquake, flooding, blizzard, or the ever so data and device destroying lightning strike?!?!?! Yes these are worse case scenarios but you cannot rule them out a friend of mines house was hit by lighting and fried every electrical appliance in there home from including TV, VCR, cable box, fridge, toaster etc you name it if they had it, it got fried and had to be replaced it was not a pretty sight not to mention all the char marks from the fires that started. Would you like to pay for something twice because of a natural disaster? I didn't think so and if you would you seriously need to get your head checked. As for where the EFF is I found them. Thank you Slashdot and CmdrTaco.
(71=dit&921=dit?lmths.0421121/11/01/50/ory/gro.todhsals.ory//tth the URL is backwards sorry I havent made 5 posts yet so you have to type it in manually as you read it from right to left. see there are workarounds for everything  ) I'm recording shows to watch at my convenience and if a friend or relative of mine has my backup up copy so phunking what?!??! I'm not selling nor are they and nor are they or I redistributing it to the whole world. As for commercials who watches those anyway I have a remote that can change the channel and sense of mind to return to that station periodically or in a timed manner to continue watching the programming that I paid for. So if they want to complain about people being able to skip the commercials lmfao we already have the ability to do that its called channel changing. Anyone who complains about people being able to skip channels and keep there favorite shows recorded for however long they want is making too much money profitting from these things. As for the Flag things well even if it was a mistake the fact of the matter is TiVo allowed this mistake to be possible period. (sorry to be redundant with the periods) This mistake was not possible before. So who are we to blame?? Ourselves for subscribing?? If someone makes a mistake with the food you ordered do you not have a right to complain and get your order corrected?? Have I made any of my points clear yet?? As for the TiVo upgrade breaking my serial connection that may have been my goof because even with the backup I have I still cant get anything from hyperterminal unless with the upgrade they were able to disable those connections somewhere in a hardware bios/firmware setting or something. I'm gonna try it on a differnet computer next but I'm open to suggestions. 

Nuff said
Excelsior


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Got it, you don't like Digital Rights Management and think it should be gone from all devices and you can give copies to friends and relatives.

ok - in a beautiful, money free world I can go there as well. I have no vested interest in the profits of content providers.
BUT
TiVo lives in the real world of laws and business deals. They can not ignore a macrovison license required to have DVD support. They can not decide on their own what channels should not have contect protection and ignore the flags set incorrectly/illegally by the broadcaster. They can get the needed info and tell the broadcaster that legal action is possible if they do not fix their mistake. the broadcaster should rebroadcast the show correctly to fix their problem.

You also agreed to a license on the paid content when you agreed to hand over money. there will be somewhere the fact that the material should only be held for x amount of time. Don't like the agreement ? then don't get the content. and certainly don't slam TiVo because of the mechanism in use in all consumer electronics to enforce the agreement. Joining the EFF and pushing to change fair use laws is the right place to throw energy on that one.

I have never heard of what you are saying on an unsubbed sereis 2, so no idea if it is technical wise correct or incorrect but it is theft of service as you are using TiVo software which use of comes with a license and TOS.


----------



## beejay

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have never heard of what you are saying on an unsubbed sereis 2, so no idea if it is technical wise correct or incorrect but it is theft of service as you are using TiVo software which use of comes with a license and TOS.


He's wrong...but it will take a little while of no subscription/no call-in for his TiVo to make that clear to him.


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## Y-ASK

Well said ZeoTivo! Everything Zeo wrote is true. Macrovision is every where. Just because you havn't run across it yet doesn't mean it's not embedded in another device you may own. Just about all new capture cards have MV setup to disallow recordings. All VCRs have it. Most of the new portable media players have it. And since I do not have an unsub'ed Tivo Series Two to test with I would go with what the experts say. It will probably become a boat anchor after a certain period of time. One way you'll know for sure is to let it dial-in after you've kill the service.

If you would just take the time a read through this entire thread maybe you will eventually come to the same conclusion that I did. It was something Tivo had to do and what most people are seeing is a mistake on the part of the boardcast stations.

But if it bothers you that much build your own... Any reasonable thinking person who looks at the entire issue will see that it is something Tivo had to do and it is no different than what any other companies is doing when it comes to DRM. Call congress and make your voice heard but blaming Tivo for this just doesn't make any sense.

Y-ASK


----------



## gonzotek

groggynod2 said:


> First of all thank God for backups so I can use my TiVo the way it was when I bought it brand new and half working the way I wanted it too knowing that it wont take too much to make it work the way I want.
> 
> Second after hearing about this macrovision and having my TiVo broken by TiVo with 7.2 "Upgrade" (downgrade really) I'm going to cancel my TiVo dis-service. I would imagine this Macrovision can easily be circumvented if you dont use the TiVo dis-service and use S-video or whatever other A/v cables the built in "Manually Record TIme/Channel" feature (TiVo Central>> Pick Programs to Record>> Record by Time or Channel>> Manually Record TIme/Channel) built into the OS in the first place so that you are not subject to Big Brother accidentally or purposely deleting content that you are paying for more than once I might add. After aying a monthly cable service fee (unless you are picking up free airwaves) plus renting the box and the remote and paying for the TiVo dis-service totalling a monthly cost of well over $70 just for the basic cable service not to mention digital or HD and the the cost of the TiVo just to have it broken after spending hours getting it to work the way I want. It almost seems like I should have spent the money on an HDTV tuner card and used it in conjunction with Windows seeing as how all the hacks and adding and removing hard drives, hardware and learning linux (not that learning linux is a bad thing) that are required to make the unit run properly. The only redeeming qualities are the fact the TiVo is a standalone unit for the most part and with the service makes it easy to record and watch shows well used to anyways before they let Big Brother step in. A majority of us are paying for these services only to have our rights as a consumer stripped by the people who we are making rich?? I dont like the sound of that but thats the reality of it. Wheres the EFF ( Electronic Frontier Foundation do a google serach in case you dont know) when you need them? We may be better off giving them our $12.95 a month seeing as how they will actually fight for our rights as a consumer considering the government wont and they take money right out of our paychecks. "We the people" are supposed to be the government anyways and cant make anything happen about this television blasphemy yet. We the relatively poor masses work daily to pay for these conveniences only to have them restricted or taken away while we make the providers richer? We need to take the power back. TiVo fix the problem my serial port worked before the upgrade to make the daily calls now after version 7.2 it doesnt is that DRM? Where is CRM? Consumer Right Management we dont get that even though we are paying for this two and three times over after cable, tivo, and tax. We have to create our own CRM. TiVo fix the problem dont make us the enemy this a mutual symbiotic relationship you need us we need you dont let the broadcasters and TV stations bully you. The TiVo community will rise up in support of you fighting the Macrovision.
> 
> Nuff Said
> Excelsior


1. An HDTV card with up to date vendor provided drivers can (and likely will) respond to the macrovision codes embedded within television content in exactly the same way as TiVo does. The industry wants ALL video devices to respond to the flags, TiVo is not alone, and jumping from it to something else is no guarantee that you will be free from the DRM shackles.

2. Manually recording the wrong(right) channel will get you nowhere, because the flag is in the video itself, not the guide data that TiVo uses. In other words, it doesn't matter what TiVo thinks it's recording; if a flag is present, it will follow the restrictions set by the flag. The same applies to commercial vcr tapes, dvds, and laserdiscs.

3. See tivo.com/copyprotection,the only kinds of content that we can *expect* to see flagged is content that already has license restrictions that people are expected to abide by today. Namely: VOD, PPV, commercial VHS and DVD content. Anything else (such as over-the-air broadcast channels) is most likely an error (either at the source provider or within TiVo). VOD and PPV are both subject to the agreement(s) you have with your cable or satellite provider, and usually are a 'view once' or view within "x" time-period. Pay-Per-View spells it out for you right there in it's name...you pay, per viewing. VHS and DVD's have always(at least, for a very long time in VHS's case) had macrovision applied to them and backups have always been prevented by standard consumer-grade equipment. Why anyone would expect TiVo to be any different in that respect is beyond me.

Now, voting with your remote can be an effective message. So can supporting the EFF. If shows you like to watch start having additional restrictions applied to them, write the sponsors and let them know you plan on boycotting their products because they support programs that restrict your freedoms. Write your congress people too, let them know that you won't be voting for them (or their party) again if they aren't doing things the way you want them to.


----------



## rainwater

gonzotek said:


> 1. An HDTV card with up to date vendor provided drivers can (and likely will) respond to the macrovision codes embedded within television content in exactly the same way as TiVo does. The industry wants ALL video devices to respond to the flags, TiVo is not alone, and jumping from it to something else is no guarantee that you will be free from the DRM shackles.


Isn't that up to the software that uses the hardware? I don't see how the hardware can enforce time limits on video recorded to the pc.


----------



## gonzotek

rainwater said:


> Isn't that up to the software that uses the hardware? I don't see how the hardware can enforce time limits on video recorded to the pc.





Gonzotek said:


> ...with up to date *vendor provided drivers* can (and likely will)...


The hardware cannot enforce time limits, true.


----------



## rainwater

gonzotek said:


> The hardware cannot enforce time limits, true.


Yes, the point is, using Linux, I don't see how you will see any Macrovision support in open source software.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Your general point is correct- that we'll always be able to load open source software without the macrovision or other DRM support. However, don't be too surprized to see Linux boxes preloaded with open source software that has had this flag support added.

If the proposed MPAA and RIAA language to be added to the Digitial TV bill is to be believed, the FCC could prohibit distribution of any devices- including software devices- which allows reception of digital video and audio without FCC dictated features like the broadcast flag.

So we'll just have to read and compile source code written in French.

Nice thinking Congress.


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## gonzotek

rainwater said:


> Yes, the point is, using Linux, I don't see how you will see any Macrovision support in open source software.


Well, since the hardware vendors can always stop publishing the specs and source code to their devices, you may find it difficult to locate open source drivers for newer pieces of hardware, assuming the vendors feel being in bed with the big media companies is to their advantage. Sure, for awhile, you can get away with using a rig set up to ignore the flags, but eventually something will fail and you'll have to replace it. There's always a way to get around things, I know. But only so many people are capable enough to do it, and only so many of those will actually want to. As someone else said earlier, it's only tv.

The real way to fight this fire is not by subversive quasi-legal measures, but right out in the open. Supporting the EFF, pestering your congress-people, and boycotting advertisers and other companies supporting drm'd content is how change will come about, if at all.


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## Justin Thyme

Very well said. :up:


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## jones07

gonzotek said:


> The real way to fight this fire is not by subversive quasi-legal measures, but right out in the open. Supporting the EFF, pestering your congress-people, and boycotting advertisers and other companies supporting drm'd content is how change will come about, if at all.


Defend your rights in the new Digital world. 
If you are of like mind make a Donation to Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF). They are fighting for us. 

http://www.eff.org/


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## groggynod2

ZeoTiVo said:


> Got it, you don't like Digital Rights Management and think it should be gone from all devices and you can give copies to friends and relatives.
> 
> ok - in a beautiful, money free world I can go there as well. I have no vested interest in the profits of content providers.
> BUT
> TiVo lives in the real world of laws and business deals. They can not ignore a macrovison license required to have DVD support. They can not decide on their own what channels should not have contect protection and ignore the flags set incorrectly/illegally by the broadcaster. They can get the needed info and tell the broadcaster that legal action is possible if they do not fix their mistake. the broadcaster should rebroadcast the show correctly to fix their problem.
> 
> You also agreed to a license on the paid content when you agreed to hand over money. there will be somewhere the fact that the material should only be held for x amount of time. Don't like the agreement ? then don't get the content. and certainly don't slam TiVo because of the mechanism in use in all consumer electronics to enforce the agreement. Joining the EFF and pushing to change fair use laws is the right place to throw energy on that one.
> 
> I have never heard of what you are saying on an unsubbed sereis 2, so no idea if it is technical wise correct or incorrect but it is theft of service as you are using TiVo software which use of comes with a license and TOS.


ZeoTiVo you don't "Got it" apparently you misunderstood what I said. By giving the copies to "a" friend or relative to store at there house for archival purposes and not to be distributed or sold is hardly theft of service considering it is paid for whether it be a DVD backup CD backup or copy of a show not if I paid for the content and some unforseen circumstance causes the original content to be destroyed How am I as the consumer protected against that? I"m not so i have to protec myself in that aspect. Having a backup copy is the only to do it without purchasing the content again. Let me ask you DO YOU LIKE TO PAY FOR THINGS TWICE?? and as for Y-Ask Why would I try to make a dial in call after having cancelled my service? The whole point is to not use the service by cancelling. What would be the point of dialing in to try to get a service I'm not subscribing for?? lol and beejay how long would you say before I cant use the TiVo without the subscription 1 month 2, 4, or 6 months?? It's already been 4. The TiVo service is just glorified menu system for listing the cable guide without it interfering with your video feed recording and to simplify the recording process. Why would TiVo want to keep me from using the DVR as a DVR? I should still be able to use it in closed circuit environment as long as I manually program it. The TiVo service lists programs and titles it for you and now they added the ease of transfering the video to your pc thats what you are paying for. I think thats great and yes TiVo is not sending you the broadcast flagged. But they are the gun that the trigger is being pulled on. So you are aiming the gun at yourself and playing russian roulette with the broadcaster loading the bullets; soemtimes blanks and oops the broadcaster loaded live ammo by accident and TiVo squeezing the trigger. Accident or not it happened. I know for sure you would not like to be on the recieving end of that gun. Your family would not be saying oh well thats DRM for you those goofy broadcaster always accidentally loading live ammo and killing people. Yes its a metaphor if you can come up with a better one I'm open to suggestions. Oh yeah you guys are fun to get all riled up. )


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## Y-ASK

groggynod2 said:


> as for Y-Ask Why would I try to make a dial in call after having cancelled my service? The whole point is to not use the service by cancelling. What would be the point of dialing in to try to get a service I'm not subscribing for?? lol


My only point was that if you let it call in after you have cancelled service I would think your Tivo would check for status, be told right away you no longer have service, and disable your ability to manually record at that point in time. If you leave it disconnected eventually the Tivo will probably shut the manually record function off. And you're going to have problems with the clock. It's not as accurate as one would like. Part of letting your device call in is that it sets the clock every time so that TV shows record at the proper time. But as I have said I don't have a unsub'ed S2 to verify that fact.

Enjoy your unsub'ed Tivo for as long as you can but I would think eventually it's going to turn manually recording off. Series One Tivos are the only Tivos that can be used without the service. Did you ever say which one you have?

ZeoTivo understands perfectly well where you are coming from and he responded with a reasonable, well thought out response. If you ask me it's you who do not get it. You live in some bizaro world where you think the content is yours. I wish that that were the case but it's not. You don't even have the right to copy encrypted DVDs that you own. Enjoy the Sony Beta Fair Use precendent while you can, because I don't think it's going to be precendent for much longer. And that will truly be a sad day.

Y-ASK


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## ZeoTiVo

groggynod2 said:


> ZeoTiVo you don't "Got it" apparently you misunderstood what I said.


not a bit. I got it all right. if you want to reply like a troll that is your waste of time


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## rainwater

gonzotek said:


> Well, since the hardware vendors can always stop publishing the specs and source code to their devices, you may find it difficult to locate open source drivers for newer pieces of hardware, assuming the vendors feel being in bed with the big media companies is to their advantage. Sure, for awhile, you can get away with using a rig set up to ignore the flags, but eventually something will fail and you'll have to replace it. There's always a way to get around things, I know. But only so many people are capable enough to do it, and only so many of those will actually want to. As someone else said earlier, it's only tv.
> 
> The real way to fight this fire is not by subversive quasi-legal measures, but right out in the open. Supporting the EFF, pestering your congress-people, and boycotting advertisers and other companies supporting drm'd content is how change will come about, if at all.


I agree. However, I think card makers have a lot of lose if they don't allow their hardware to work on linux. At this point, I don't see there being an issue anytime soon that would keep me from being able to record my shows in linux without drm attached.


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## groggynod2

yes I"m a troll from bizaro world and bizaro super man says hi to you guys too.


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## groggynod2

41=dit?lmths.3424202/11/10/02/ecneics/gro.todhsals.ecneics//tth its backwards again sorry i live in bizaro world remember??This must be my relative right ZeoTiVo?? and you still didnt answer any of my questions not that you have it only drives my point home more.


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## Justin Thyme

Y-ASK said:


> Enjoy the Sony Beta Fair Use precendent while you can, because I don't think it's going to be precendent for much longer. And that will truly be a sad day.


 I think that is unnecessarily pessimistic. But it is true that one of the limits of fair use is harm to the original value of the work  if the copyright "fair use" was widespread. [wikipedia explanation of "effect on work's value limit] 

Then there are court imposed restrictions.

I used to think well, the Courts are going to have to rule that way, because who will want to buy shows when they have a couple thousand archived.

Now I am not so sure.

What I am seeing with my server experiment of nearly 1000 Tivo shows (mostly movies) is that I feel very motivated to get some of these shows on HD DVD when they become available. It is theoretically possible that I could shut off my satellite service, and that would indicated lost revenue due to my archiving, but I am not at all inclined to do that either. I want to make another copy because it was compressed to heavily, I was missing the first minute of the show due to it starting early, it was automatically cropped wrong, or the audio sync is a little off. If this were not an experiment and I was not in the process of tossing these in order to do volume tests on another codec, it would be years and years before I would have had a saturated SD collection and even by then I would have figured out how to store what we consider HD and want to upgrade everything again.

Ad infititum. So there are many good reasons to expect an increase in the value of the work due to such archiving, not a decrease.

But what really matters is what arguments work with the judges who hear the case. And even very experienced lawyers disagree.

The unanticipated effect of archiving is that being able to time shift / archive large numbers of shows allows you to discover which shows are repeatable, and that you not only want to watch them more, but in very high quality. It's why I have a Criterion DVDs of "It's a Wonderful Life" and "Miracle on 34th street", and "Charade".

One would think that because Capra's film or Charade fell out of copyright that the value would have gone to nill. Instead, everyone associates the Jimmy Stewart film with Christmas because it could be used by the broadcasters without charge and the exposure proved its value. Similarly with Charade. There are a very large number of films with such repeatability value.

There is also a legitimate reason for extended time shifts. I don't know about you, but I am seldom in the mood for Danny Kay, but when I am, I really get into his schtick, and my girls do too. It's no good time-shifting such movies for 3 days or even 2 weeks. It may be months before I have the least inclination to look at a goofy Gamera film. But when the campiness bug hits me, I can take a look at them.

So what does this suggest? That you relax copy restrictions on lower resolution content to drive up demand of higher definition content. When display technology comes out with yet richer displays, you relax copy restrictions like macrovision flags and what not on the formerly Hidef stuff, and so on until we have holodeck quality 3D participatory movies. What I am saying is, the cycle can be continued virtually in perpetuity.

Fair use copying actually drives demand of the next iteration in media technology. Everyone wants the mind blowingly more realistic version precisely because it is uncommon.

20 years ago to predict the studios would be enthusiastic and promoting VHS, would be to invite hysterical laughter.

I am beginning to see that in 10 years, something like what I am describing will be a well established pattern and the studios will even be subsidizing and encouraging the Tivo copier of that decade. For now, we will have to deal with the numbskulls at the MPAA who think the sky is falling again, just like with VHS.


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## groggynod2

Justin all I have to say to that from my trolls point of view and being in bizaro world with bizaro superman is "Right On Man!!"


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## Y-ASK

I hope you're right Justin, I really do. But when you put a short sighted movie industry with lots of money together with a politician strapped for campaign contributions only bad things can. It has always been my contention that there should be absolutely no campaign contributions from anyone outside the Gov. What I mean by that is that our tax paying dollars should be spent on each canidate who can get enough signatures to have their name put on the election ballot. Eveyone gets the same amount with no strings, except you have to account for every penny spent and you cannot keep the money for your own person. Then there would not be a need for a Movie Industry Lobbiest and your representative could spend his/her time looking at what is fair for both personal use and protection of the copyright holder. With the current state of campaign contributions and the most important item on the representatives agenda is getting re-elected, I am some what pessimistic about the out come. DMCA is a pretty good example of that.

Y-ASK


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## ZeoTiVo

Justin Thyme said:


> There is also a legitimate reason for extended time shifts. I don't know about you, but I am seldom in the mood for Danny Kay, but when I am, I really get into his schtick, and my girls do too. It's no good time-shifting such movies for 3 days or even 2 weeks. It may be months before I have the least inclination to look at a goofy Gamera film. But when the campiness bug hits me, I can take a look at them.
> 
> So what does this suggest? That you relax copy restrictions on lower resolution content to drive up demand of higher definition content. When display technology comes out with yet richer displays, you relax copy restrictions like macrovision flags and what not on the formerly Hidef stuff, and so on until we have holodeck quality 3D participatory movies. What I am saying is, the cycle can be continued virtually in perpetuity.
> 
> Fair use copying actually drives demand of the next iteration in media technology. Everyone wants the mind blowingly more realistic version precisely because it is uncommon.
> 
> 20 years ago to predict the studios would be enthusiastic and promoting VHS, would be to invite hysterical laughter.
> 
> I am beginning to see that in 10 years, something like what I am describing will be a well established pattern and the studios will even be subsidizing and encouraging the Tivo copier of that decade. For now, we will have to deal with the numbskulls at the MPAA who think the sky is falling again, just like with VHS.


I can see this happening. I think that if the broadcast flag does get by or macrovison time restrictions become more commonplace then there will be court cases defining the length of time for a timeshift more clearly. I personally would not use anything that makes me watch the content whithin a 24 hour period and would actually want to see at least a week on the timehift and this is for current movies that still have value for DVD sales etc.. Movie links went by the wayside for overpriced content and the 24 hour period in my opinion.
I use Netflix precisely because I can keep the DVD as long as I need to, but generally turn them over in a 2 weeks time. I have never done PPV. :down:

And your media server where you back up all your DVDs adn OTA shows onto seems like legitimate fair use to me, assuming you bought the DVDs there should be no time restriction on them  Now the not so gray area is what if you give a copy to a neighbor to watch? then that means they did not have to buy or rent the DVD, do a PPV or subscribe to cable to record "The Court Jester" (my Favorite Danny Kay movie) there is lost value. Of course making a bit torrent server out of it definitely looses value and it is the threat of that that has the copyright holders wanting to put a no copy at all or short timeshift on everything that gets in the consumers hands. It is a two way street.


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## dt_dc

Justin Thyme said:


> So what does this suggest? That you relax copy restrictions on lower resolution content to drive up demand of higher definition content. When display technology comes out with yet richer displays, you relax copy restrictions like macrovision flags and what not on the formerly Hidef stuff, and so on until we have holodeck quality 3D participatory movies. What I am saying is, the cycle can be continued virtually in perpetuity.


Well this would suggest that the studios can and should fight for the _ability_ to apply protection and restrictions. After all, if you if you _can_ apply protections and restrictions ... you can also choose not to apply them as well.

Hollywood will always fight for the ability to add protections and restrictions for exactly this reason. Perhaps applying restrictions makes business sense ... perhaps it doesn't. Having the _choice_ to apply protections and restrictions (or not) makes the most business sense of all ... which is exactly what Hollywood will always fight for. Not saying that they should be given carte-blanche ... but they will always try.

As an example ... PPV can be protected with Macrovision AGP, colorstripe, and copy-never flags. However, to my knowledge (in the US) it has never been.

Heck, there's an additional factor beyond just the value of the content. Start adding protections and you have to pay someone to do so. You don't start paying Macrovision $X per PPV order just because you can ... you only do it if you feel it makes business sense.


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## Justin Thyme

dt_dc said:


> Well this would suggest that the studios can and should fight for the _ability_ to apply protection and restrictions. After all, if you if you _can_ apply protections and restrictions ... you can also choose not to apply them as well.


The suggestion was very much intended. Protection of the high end form is integral to the model. If the creators of this content can't protect it, consumers will want the Brigadoon show in Hidef and a friend will "loan" it to them. And then the damage to the value of the work is patently obvious and either the courts or Congress act in a probably draconian fashion to prevent one of the few successful export businesses the US has from getting its domestic market destroyed.

A successful studio strategy will not rely on fixed emplacements like colorstriping or flags or a particular proprietary scheme. The modern hacking battleground is mobile, and all protection schemes will have to be as adaptable as virus protection software. This means heavy reliance on programmable DSPs, and penetration of watermark detection software into the displays themselves.

A successful studio strategy will not rely on fickle and localized domestic governmental involvement. Instead it will rely on technology standards from industry players with long term self interest in assuring long term supply of excellent content. With such a strategy you will have a strategy as effective n Brazil as it is in San Francisco.

This nonsense of using the DTV bill and the FCC as a bludgeon is as idiotic as the WWI generals who time and again wasted the lives of tens of thousands of brave men day after day, stubbornly refusing to believe that old tactics could not be used to fight a problem drastically alterred by technology. Even if they do succeed temporarily in the US, where else will they get a receptive audience? Brussels? They are talking about doing away with copyright entirely- the slogans they are using are cultural monopolists to tap intellectual concerns about the homogenization of local cultures by american media. Putting aside the complex European situation, what about the rest of the world where thievery is the norm? What can ever be done about pirate sites in Turkmenistan or Venezuala? Enforce international copyright? We can't even get Ven. to vote with the rest of the world in dealing with countries performing an end run around nuclear non proliferation treaties.

Focusing the center of one's strategy on legal protections is a dangerous delusion.


dt_dc said:


> Start adding protections and you have to pay someone to do so. You don't start paying Macrovision $X per PPV order just because you can ... you only do it if you feel it makes business sense.


 This is mistaken. Realnetworks and Microsoft will be happy to not only create such dynamically adaptable DRM software but perform the content encoding for free, because it is very much in their self interest to do so. Microsoft has already gone to exceptional lengths to add this sort of DRM into the bowels of the next version of Windows. You can't even get access to the memory cache for Hidef content because ring0 code in the kernel itself prevents it. To get access to the cache your code is authenticated against its revokable certificate by the OS. This is the same code used to protect against viruses, so it is very strong. Regarding content encoding, RNWK will encode and monitor violations and revoking of certificates because they want to have the broadest range of content possible.

Partnership with MS gets the technology muscle they need. Surprize surprize. Glaser and Gates reach a mutually beneficial agreement to do just that for audio DRM across multiple hardware devices. Putting the FCC into the design process as the RIAA suggests in their DTV bill suggested language will only achieve an inadequate technology solution delivered a decade from now.

They both are not the only players desperate for a critical mass of that high end content to be running on their platforms. I think they are the front runners for multiple hardware vendor solution on general purpose processors.

But maybe Macrovision will wise up and install a low level layer into the bowels of linux. I doubt it. Though they undoubtedly have innovative engineers that advocate doing this sort of thing, their organization is old school and such low level OS work would be as exceptionally costly as it is high risk. It would take a huge innovative spirit to do it, so it would have to be someone with ambition for anachronistic thinking in new businesses- like a google.

Just this diaper changer's wild ass guess. Maybe I am delusional from the thin air flying too high in the blue skies.


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## ZeoTiVo

Justin Thyme said:


> But maybe Macrovision will wise up and install a low level layer into the bowels of linux. I doubt it. Though they undoubtedly have innovative engineers that advocate doing this sort of thing, their organization is old school and such low level OS work would be as exceptionally costly as it is high risk. It would take a huge innovative spirit to do it, so it would have to be someone with ambition for anachronistic thinking in new businesses- like a google.
> 
> Just this diaper changer's wild ass guess. Maybe I am delusional from the thin air flying too high in the blue skies.


I was with you right up to the getting macrovision into the bowels of Linux. I am not seeing many open source builds going with that one.

Macrovision may leave things like RealTV on windows alone and just let the next version of windows deal with it.

But open source will be the thorn in their side - I do not see how DRM will get in there unless it is a specialized build for commercial purposes ALA TiVo.


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## jmoak

Justin Thyme said:


> But maybe Macrovision will wise up and install a low level layer into the bowels of linux. I doubt it.


Maybe Macrovision will install a low level layer into the bowels of an open source operating system?

....and maybe pigs will sprout wings and fly, too.

No, really... It could happen!



_I smeeked!_


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## mec1991

starbreiz said:


> :up:
> 
> I think TiVo is one of the good guys, but their hands are tied.


Yeah, you're probably right.


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## Justin Thyme

jmoak said:


> Maybe Macrovision will install a low level layer into the bowels of an open source operating system?
> 
> ....and maybe pigs will sprout wings and fly, too.
> 
> No, really... It could happen!


 No really. Encryption algorithms do not have to rely on obscurity to function perfectly well. They can be published in open source form. Of course the algorithms that Macrovision would publish in this form would rely on a service to keep the certificates authenticated. This creates a dependency on a proprietary service that defeats the intent of open source, but it does not defeat the rule. IBM and AT&T have been playing other kinds of games with Linux that Macrovision or others could employ.

I'm not saying there would be any people accepting the changes into their code trees, and they would be regarded as a pariah, but technically it is possible and there is a good business model for doing it.

I seriously seriously doubt anyone will. I am just pointing out it is possible.


ZeoTiVo said:


> I do not see how DRM will get in there unless it is a specialized build for commercial purposes ALA TiVo.


This exactly what I intended by my passage on macrovision linux, but the code could be fully released as well.


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## kcm

They COULD use a Trusted Computing Platform architecture to verify everything from the boot block up. Cryptographic routines cannot, in fact, rely on obscurity for operational strength, but they sure can use low-level hardware..

That being said, I think it'll have just as negative of an impact as this did. When will content providers stop treating consumers like children and realize we'll pay more when we get more, gladly?


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## jmoak

Draconian drm _could_ make it's way as low level code into an open source operating system, and pigs may sprout wings and fly, too.

I seriously doubt they will. I am just pointing out that it is possible.

Now, as for a "Trusted Computing Platform"...
Do a goggle search on "trusted platform bios" and "palladium".

...and get ready to buy a parrot and don your eyepatch if you want video "Your Way" on your computer or mobile device if it comes to pass.

Support the EFF.
http://www.eff.org/


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## Justin Thyme

The point is not as useless as you make it seem. Windows Vista will not necessarily be the only game in town. There are many hardware vendors who wish to have control of their source code, and not to have to pay MS licence fees. Such a DRM version of Linux delivers that. Where there is a demand, there will be people to serve that demand. Because it is possible from both a technical and business perspective, it is not comparable to the technically impossible situation of pigs flying. 

The reason I think it is unlikely is that are too few challengers that will take it far enough to be a serious enough challenger to gain the studios' confidence that will be awarded Windows Vista. Macrovision has the credibility and the relationship but the resources expended would be half hearted. Newcomers may have the balls but not the credibility. So there will be some biplanes jury rigged that will take to the air, but I think Vista is going to win the favor of the studios ultimately.

Paladium and other chip level bypasses of software only work if their advocates can prevent folks from using anything other than those sorts of chips. And that is not going to happen anytime this century, with the number of fab plants in countries that are all too happy to accomodate any demand out their regardless whether they wear eye patches.

We are agreed that people should not place their faith in the open source or mod community to be their ultimate protector of fair use rights. Nonetheless, I predict MythTv will be a thorn in the side of the studios for a very very long time to come.

Ultimately digital rights is a social, not a technical issue. The EFF is doing some good advocacy work and deserve our support.


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## jmoak

Justin Thyme said:


> The point is not as useless as you make it seem. ...


OkOk, I give.

I replaced "Linux" with "open source" in post #426 simply in an attempt to poke a little fun at you in an otherwise flailing eleven page thread. Even after trying to restate it in post #430, it still didn't work. Just another sad attempt at a bad joke on my part.

My bad.

But kcm's mention of a "Trusted Computing Platform" made the hair on the back of my neck stand up in fear. I should have put that in another post to separate it from my SJA (Sad Joke Attempt).

Again, My Bad.


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## dt_dc

Justin Thyme said:


> A successful studio strategy will not rely on fixed emplacements like colorstriping or flags or a particular proprietary scheme.
> (...)
> A successful studio strategy will not rely on fickle and localized domestic governmental involvement.
> (...)
> This nonsense of using the DTV bill and the FCC as a bludgeon is as idiotic as the WWI generals who time and again wasted the lives of tens of thousands of brave men day after day, stubbornly refusing to believe that old tactics could not be used to fight a problem drastically alterred by technology.
> (...)


Ok ... so this thread started with Macrovision and wandered to the broadcast flag and is now wandering again.

Macrovision and the broadcast flag aren't intended to be an end-all-be-all-unbreakable form of protection. They certainly aren't the "center" of anyone's strategy either. Is the MPAA depending on Macrovision and Broadcast Flag for protecting HD-DVDs ... or as the basis for distributing content via cable and dbs ... or for their new download on demand content? No. They are specific things with specific purposes and specific reasons for being ...

Not relying on "localized domestic governmental involvement" and looking to market-driven solutions? How quaint. Many argued (for a variety of reasons including copy protection) that the gov't shouldn't force a DTV tranistion. That it should happen on its own market-driven pace. Of course ... that didn't happen. Many argued (for a variety of reasons including copy protection) that the gov't shouldn't get as invloved over what and how broadcasters used their new spectrum. That broadcasters should be able to (among other things) encrypt at the source if they were able to create a viable marketplace. Of course ... that didn't happen. DTV IS givernment involvement ... it's the government's quest for revenues that's driving it. So now the MPAA is so out of hand to look for more government involvement and ask for a broadcast flag?

Not relying on "fixed emplacements" and looking to more advanced forms of protection? Again ... all very well and good. Except of course when the government has said that you can't. Real/MS encrypted content can't be used on a broadcaster's primary DTV channel. For analog output and content (Macrovision) ... again, the MPAA asked the government not to get involved and let them use downrezzing and seletable output control and other methods if they came to a market driven solution for that ... and the FCC said no.

Now, I'm not saying that the MPAA should be given broadcast flag legislation (then again, I'm not saying they shouldn't). It CERTAINLY should not be attached to a budget reconcilliation bill (which is absolutely ridiculous). But OTOH I find the suggestion that asking for broadcast flag lesislation is somehow indicitive of an anachronistic MPAA not understanding technology or trends or distribution models or whatever else a bit ... laughable (no offense).

Perhaps the thin air is getting to you.


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## ZeoTiVo

we should encrypt this thread


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## MighTiVo

groggynod2 said:


> Yes I have Series 2 TiVo Lajohn 27. If you read my post I left specific instructions on how to manually record shows WITHOUT having TiVo service just walk through the steps and use S-video or any other A/V cables except for coaxial (sorry I left that out) granted you dont get the channel info and title of the show but it works just like setting a VCR. Nuff said
> Excelsior


The macrovision protection works even withut service and recordin with the video input unless you have a filter or Video Stabilizer installed such as these:
http://www.facetvideo.com/xcart/customer/home.php


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## lajohn27

Groggy:

I read your post again.. and I found your directions.

Cancel your service and try that. I guarantee on a series 2 box.. it doesn't work. 

No recording features are enabled on Series 2 boxes without service. You can pause, rewind and ff TV and that's it.

You can downgrade your software to 4.0 and the Series 2 box.. and the results will be the same... 

The only TIVO boxes that have non-service recording functions are Series 1 units that originally shipped with TIVO Software 1.3.

As for serial port for daily calls on 7.2 - mine works flawlessly.. have you rebooted the box since the intial 7.2 reboot?

My offer to buy your boxes still valid.  

J


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## Justin Thyme

dt_dc said:


> Not relying on "localized domestic governmental involvement" and looking to market-driven solutions? How quaint. Many argued (for a variety of reasons including copy protection) that the gov't shouldn't force a DTV tranistion. That it should happen on its own market-driven pace.


First, what I was focussed on with this passage was the global problem. I just don't see how what the FCC and the MPAA is advocating works as a global solution for protecting Studio IP.

Strong Operating system support for DRM is a more effective control which offers a global solution for a global market of studio intellectual property.

There is a silly debate in Europe about revising IP laws- essentially applying socialism to IP. I don't know if any of the Green intellectuals have yet become uneasy about the implications of undermining post industrial economies based on non polluting intellectual property focused businesses. If we focus our consumption on products that require highly skilled labor, and virtually no destruction of natural resources, then all is goodness and light. Subtract the ability to get a respectable return on the cost of producing those products, and we are returned to employing our people by rebuilding our smokestack industries.

Is that where we really want to go?

So protecting intellectual property is a really a love-hate relationship. I have been stewing on this for a few weeks, and am not coming up with anything brilliant. Congress has been mucking about quite a bit with broadcast flags in response to intense lobbying by the RIAA and MPAA.

Protection of IP can have two unintended consequences.

1) Gives the DRM vendor (and the studios by proxy) extensive leverage over the features of Consumer electronics devices.

2) Can be used as part of a vertical monopoly scheme- the practice of building cars that only run on a kind of gasoline sold by the same company.

To deal with both of these excesses, regulation of the DRM schemes is essential. It is clearly part of Congress's constitutional mandate to carry our regulatory responsibilities over interstate commerce, and part of their responsibility to voters to not become pawns of corporate attempts to use governmental action as part of anti competition and anti innovation schemes.


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## dover471

What do you think about red flagged content being recorded to a vcr?

I mean with that option you are just playing the content, right??


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## megazone

dover471 said:


> What do you think about red flagged content being recorded to a vcr?
> 
> I mean with that option you are just playing the content, right??


Right, that's the 'analog hole' in the system. Anything you can play via the analog outputs you can record on another device.


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## Stormspace

megazone said:


> Right, that's the 'analog hole' in the system. Anything you can play via the analog outputs you can record on another device.


In the case of Macrovision this wouldn't work as the signal would be picked up by the VCR and introduce noise into the picture. Fading from light to dark.


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## megazone

Stormspace said:


> In the case of Macrovision this wouldn't work as the signal would be picked up by the VCR and introduce noise into the picture. Fading from light to dark.


 That's easily resolved with a 'Video Stabilizer' from Radio Shack.


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## Justin Thyme

Sima is a popular choice. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3246091#post3246091

Besides correcting the color banding and gain control fake out signals, that will defeat the data flags embedded in the vertical blanking interval. The minus is that the box munges the signal a bit according to some video aficionados and will not deliver the best PQ. From the school of less is more, I mention in that same note a box which does nothing more than turn on or off the CGMS flags. So if you are up against flags and not the other signal problems, then that might be a better solution for those concerned with the highest possible PQ.

Something I didn't cover was problems with Veil Technologies embeded flags. Theoretically I'd guess that anything that deinterlaces or scales will probably work just fine at removing problems created by information embedded using this mechanism. I have not done any tests of this though due to the newness of the technique but if I ever run across it, I will report any workarounds I come across.

I think these sorts of things are meant as speedbumps designed to let people know they are pushing the limits of propriety if what they are unknowingly creating illegal copies of stuff. For those folks making a time shifted recording, they are simple to bypass.


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## dover471

What does everyone think...

We can timeshift because the Court said so in Sony, but that was dealing with an analog VCR...

Do you think we should still have the ability to timeshift now that we are able to capture copyrighted video in digital format??


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## Justin Thyme

It doesn't matter. People can, and they will timeshift in the privacy of their own homes. 

The law will have a very hard time regulating what goes on in the home- so long as the content stays in the home. 

It looks like the industry is ok with those parameters so really the debate may be interesting to legal academics and IP (intellectual property) anarchists, but is probably pointless for most folks.


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## dover471

I agree to an extent, but, as i am sure you are aware, there have been many developments lately (analog hole legislation, broadcast flags, macrovision) that potentially limit an indivduals ability to timeshift.

The possbility is that we may no longer have the ability to timeshift, or atleast to the extent that we want to, if little red flags start popping up on our TIVO, and then, even in the privacy of your home, your ability to timeshift will be limited.


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## LynnL999

dover471 said:


> What does everyone think...
> 
> We can timeshift because the Court said so in Sony, but that was dealing with an analog VCR...
> 
> Do you think we should still have the ability to timeshift now that we are able to capture copyrighted video in digital format??


Not that I understand why you're concerned about this one way or the other, but um... yeah! The basic principles of fair use are still the same. What does it matter to either party whether the format is analog or digital?

Before you say "it's easier to post digital stuff on the internet illegally" that isn't what I'm talking about -- only the legal use of timeshifting. The fact that something can be used illegally by someone willing to make an effort to do so shouldn't prevent it's legal use.


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## dover471

It matters because movie execs are getting increasingly worried about broadcasting movies over network tv in digital format. Up until now, with the upcoming mandate of digital broadcasting, hollywood has had a monopoly on movies in digital format through the sale of DVDs.

Now, with the tivo and HDTV, individuals can capture a digital movie instead of relying on the analog hole to make the movie digital, which inevitably loses atleast a little quality.

So, this is the difference, and the partys do care. Enter Macrovision.


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## Justin Thyme

dover471 said:


> I agree to an extent, but, as i am sure you are aware, there have been many developments lately (analog hole legislation, broadcast flags, macrovision) that potentially limit an indivduals ability to timeshift.
> 
> The possbility is that we may no longer have the ability to timeshift, or atleast to the extent that we want to, if little red flags start popping up on our TIVO, and then, even in the privacy of your home, your ability to timeshift will be limited.


Well, to what extent?
_"Analog hole legislation"- _ there are drafts circulated by MPAA. Drafts. They always have done this. What is new here? Besides- assume for the sake of argument congress passes the law exactly as RIAA and MPAA have specified. How does congress prevent anyone from doing something in the privacy of their own homes?
_"Broadcast flags"_- as trivial to bypass as the old macrovision protection- same device too- Sima video stabilizer from Compusa. 
_"Macrovision_"- been around for eons, easily bypassed.
_"Potentially limit"_? What potential? Theoretically anything is dangerous. Sure the lobbying should be watched closely but EFF is doing a good job sending out alerts when significant developments arice. Is there more than generic anxieties here? There are no actual or near term realistic limits to timeshift.

"The possibility is that we may no longer have the ability to timeshift..." You keep asserting there is a some possiblity. Tell me how. Please consult bypassing options found in note 158.

You keep buying into the "analog hole" phrase as if it were somehow descriptive of the situation- As if it were, like a hole pluggable. It is inherently impossible because soon or later any encoding scheme no matter how diabolical and ingeneous has to be translated into images I can see. Somewhere around that point, novice pirates will be able to redigitize it and distribute it in encrypted form on the net in informal dark net networks.

The content industry cannot plug the so called "analog hole". The best they can hope for is to work with this technology trend rather than attempt to repress it's affects with legislation and DRM techniques.


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## ZeoTiVo

dover471 said:


> It matters because movie execs are getting increasingly worried about broadcasting movies over network tv in digital format. Up until now, with the upcoming mandate of digital broadcasting, hollywood has had a monopoly on movies in digital format through the sale of DVDs.
> 
> Now, with the tivo and HDTV, individuals can capture a digital movie instead of relying on the analog hole to make the movie digital, which inevitably loses atleast a little quality.
> 
> So, this is the difference, and the partys do care. Enter Macrovision.


actually content providers are moving to get ahead of the dark networks by starting up internet distribution of their own and gaining some ground on how to monetize this form of distribution. They saw from the music industry that fighting the pirates head on was just a big drain on resources with limited actual results and mixed PR results.

now the legitimate music stores are getting major traction and pirating has dropped back out of the mainstream.

just the past few weeks have seen legal video distribution on the internet gain considerable attention and choices. I predict it will grow even more and just as quickly. The only real question for the courts is how long is a reasonable timeshift - one week , one month one year ?? that question along with the implication of creating archives of "permanently timeshifted" material was deliberately NOT addressed in the SONY case.


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## josekelso

Hello,

I write you from Spain.
I have a consulting firm and one of our clients (from France) is looking for information on HBO on Demand, with screen shots of the different Menus.
We will pay to have the screen shots of the different menus, how to select the show you want and how do you feel it from a users point of view.

We are pretty hurried. If this can interest any of you (cheap and easy money) please contact us

Thanks,
Jose


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## DocNo

josekelso said:


> I have a consulting firm and one of our clients (from France) is looking for information on HBO on Demand, with screen shots of the different Menus.


Oooh ohh! You too could be an industrial spy!

Wow, all kinds of things going down at AVS forum...


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## josekelso

No, no, no industrial SPY (if so I would've my self traveled to the States to do the shots. Good oportunity indeed).

I am just looking for the screen shots. In France there is a service that works very well called Noos (cable and Interactive TV) and there is the new TV by using the ADSL service via Telephone line and a big Modem (called MaLigne TV or Free).

I guess that our client is looking just for the look and feel, how many hits do you need to get the content,... BUt from a Marketing and final user point of view.

So if you're interested we can talk...


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## doulos12

OK, when I heard about all this a couple months ago, I pulled the phone cord out of my DirecTV TiVo. Now, I can't get software updates (problem solved), but I also can't get Pay-Per-View (New problem). Will this software update apply to all TiVo machines? Mine is an older one (Got it a year ago) w/o TTG, no HD, etc.


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## Turtleboy

doulos12 said:


> OK, when I heard about all this a couple months ago, I pulled the phone cord out of my DirecTV TiVo. Now, I can't get software updates (problem solved), but I also can't get Pay-Per-View (New problem). Will this software update apply to all TiVo machines? Mine is an older one (Got it a year ago) w/o TTG, no HD, etc.


None of this effects DirectTivos.

You pulled the cord out for nothing.

(And even if it did effect it, you still pulled the cord out for nothing).


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## lajohn27

Wow.. Whatever happened to all these posters who were going to put their TIVO's on EBAY over this.. I guess they did.. cause they haven't been back to post about how this problem is the end of TIVO as we know it..

[ Don't worry - that cause can now be found in THIS thread.. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3510329&posted=1#post3510329 ]


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## doulos12

Turtleboy said:


> None of this effects DirectTivos.
> 
> You pulled the cord out for nothing.


So I can do my dial-in and not worry that PPV events will not be saved? I often take a month or more to get through a movie, and I don't want to pay for a movie and then not see some or all of it.



Turtleboy said:


> (And even if it did effect it, you still pulled the cord out for nothing).


How so?


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## lajohn27

The DIRECTV system calls in for PPV reporting purposes only. 

AFAIK -- the software upgrades and what have you are included in the stream (signal) to the receiver.

Lastly - If you have a 6.2 software.. you already have macrovision. 

J


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## samkuhn

So if Tivo's use of Macrovision is, say, making the picture less clear, will a "video clarifier" box placed between the digital cable box and the Tivo remove this lack of clarity?

e.g.
http://www.facetvideo.com/xcart/customer/product.php?productid=83&cat=26&page=1

Or is the Macrovision protocol used by the Tivo different from the one used on VHS tapes?


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## lajohn27

Well I'm no expert. But the Macrovision in use on the TIVO platform appears to be a code in the VBI that restricts recordings and usage of the resulting recordings if permitted.

This does NOT appear to be the same thing as the Automatic Gain Control style protection. In that setup, something in the vertical blanking interval is rapidly adjusted to screw with the AGC and therefore the video signal - which generally degrades slightly as a result.

J


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## Dennis Wilkinson

lajohn27 said:


> Well I'm no expert. But the Macrovision in use on the TIVO platform appears to be a code in the VBI that restricts recordings and usage of the resulting recordings if permitted.
> 
> This does NOT appear to be the same thing as the Automatic Gain Control style protection. In that setup, something in the vertical blanking interval is rapidly adjusted to screw with the AGC and therefore the video signal - which generally degrades slightly as a result.


I think you're right, but it's worth noting that TiVo will recognize the AGC/ColorStripe flavors of Macrovision as well, because of their original license, although I believe the only thing the box will do with it is restore it on output (in other words, to prevent the TiVo itself from being used as a device to strip Macrovision out.)


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## jkeese01

I downloaded a few shows using my TiVo desktop when it first came out. This feature could be usefully, but it does take time to transfer the recordings from TiVo to PC.

I will gladly give up the ability to copy shows from TiVo to PC if that will end the copy control over content by the network and local stations.

TiVoToGo is kind of obsolete now with the new Slingbox.

Jim


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## rainwater

jkeese01 said:


> TiVoToGo is kind of obsolete now with the new Slingbox.


I hardly see how the two are related. TTG can be used for archival purposes, as well as allowing you to take a DVD (or your laptop) with you when you are without any type of internet access at all. Slingbox is awesome, but I don't see how the two are related.


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## megazone

Yeah, while the Slingbox is neat, it only helps if you have a solid network connection where and when you want to watch something - AND you're not going to be causing problems for someone else at home.

With TTG you can move shows to a laptop, iPod, PSP, PMC, PDA, etc, and watch them anywhere, any time. Since you can move shows to a PC and back, you can setup a media server to store shows indefinitely.


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## peterapp42

Tivo's latest software update is preventing the coping of HD recorded movies from my hard drive to the built in DVD recorder. Analyzed this by connecting the Tivo up to a Dazzle and plugged the dazzle into a macintosh. Then used Imovie. Examine the movie now located in Imovie reveled a vertical line of data dots and dashes on the right of the video. I used a data analyzers and found these to be a program which disables the dvd drive from performing a copy. Prof, recored an infomercial to HD then copied the infomercial to DVD. The copy worked. Played the infomercial into the mac with the dazzle and the dots and dashes were not visible. conclusion: Its time to drop Tivo and move into a media center which records the videos into a mac using quicktime compression. There is no DRM on QT and this will prevent the movie industry from blocking the DVD burning. After all, I only want to move these videos off of my tivo so I can watch them on my mac book while on air planes or traveling. So a mac mini and a USB I/R to change the channels and the DVR hardware is on my shopping list. The termination of paying tivo will happen next week.


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## stevel

G'wan, pull the other one.... "dots and dashes... a program which disables the dvd drive"?!?!?! Thanks for the laugh.


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## megazone

This sounds like BS. There is NOTHING in the new TiVo software to disable DVD burns. I own two DVD units.


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## jfh3

peterapp42 said:


> "reveled (sic) a vertical line of data dots and dashes on the right of the video. I used a data analyzers and found these to be a program which disables the dvd drive from performing a copy.


And if you watch the video, your Tivo will immediately turn into a toaster.

Hope you're not relying too heavily on those data analyzers ...


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## ZeoTiVo

peterapp42 said:


> I used a data analyzers and found these to be a program


      

Have fun scheduling season apsses on your Mac mini


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## petew

megazone said:


> This sounds like BS. There is NOTHING in the new TiVo software to disable DVD burns. I own two DVD units.


Actually not entirely true. If the Macrovision copy protect flags get set as previously discussed at great length. Both TivoToGo and Save to DVD are disabled.


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## Stormspace

ZeoTiVo said:


> Have fun scheduling season apsses on your Mac mini


Actually, if he wanted to he could use MythTV on his Mac. Of course finding supported hardware and setting the thing up would be a bear. And MythTV does have season passes. I'd be using it myself if I could justify the 200 for a compatible tuner card.


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## ZeoTiVo

Stormspace said:


> Actually, if he wanted to he could use MythTV on his Mac. Of course finding supported hardware and setting the thing up would be a bear. And MythTV does have season passes. I'd be using it myself if I could justify the 200 for a compatible tuner card.


Yep. I think Apple corp is leaning heavily toward the download model from iTunes and not so much in the direction of making yet another DVR/Media center no matter how well Apple might make one.

So any DVR like functions will be from 3rd party sources.


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## megazone

petew said:


> Actually not entirely true. If the Macrovision copy protect flags get set as previously discussed at great length. Both TivoToGo and Save to DVD are disabled.


Yes, but that's not *new*. There is nothing in the new software that disables DVD burning, which is what the poster was implying. That the 7.3/7.3.1 update changed something and blocked burning. That's been in there since 5.x, the original DVD software branch.


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## petew

megazone said:


> Yes, but that's not *new*. There is nothing in the new software that disables DVD burning, which is what the poster was implying. That the 7.3/7.3.1 update changed something and blocked burning. That's been in there since 5.x, the original DVD software branch.


OK I just parsed your statement differently. I read "there's nothing in the new software" to mean the whole package, changes made in 7.3/7.31 and all the exisiting code still in 7.31. While re-reading you statement I realize you were refering to the delta between 7.2.2 and 7.3 not adding anything new that alters the users ability to create DVD's. However this doesn't preclude the coincidence of the cable co turning on the Macrovision copy protection flags around the same time Tivo pushed the 7.3 upgrade.


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## palomino

have had a toshiba rs-tx60 for a couple of years now, and only occasionally did this problem come up (e.g. showtime sent out a signal to make one episode of "weeds" "non-copy-able"; fx did it with one episode of "over there"). But now it's on every non-broadcast channel. I have DirecTV, and live in NY. I called them; they claimed never to have gotten this complaint. These forums say otherwise. I tried contacting TiVo; they claim I have to go to Toshiba or DirecTV (I did e-mail Toshiba). This is jive! Must we all now get anti-macrovision, "video stabilizer" devices? Anybody?!


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## bh757

Because it did it on mine too. I have a series 3 and after the show (ANY) show finished recording, it would delete it 2 hours later. You could not extend the hold time, nor add 'Untill I Delete" to it.

May be the cable company doing this through validation though. I will let you know tomorrow when the cable company does their thing.


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## GoHokies!

bh757 said:


> Because it did it on mine too. I have a series 3 and after the show (ANY) show finished recording, it would delete it 2 hours later. You could not extend the hold time, nor add 'Untill I Delete" to it.
> 
> May be the cable company doing this through validation though. I will let you know tomorrow when the cable company does their thing.


 

Who are you talking to? This thread died a year ago. If your S3 is doing this for every show, than your cable company is (illegally) setting the copy protection bit.


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## ZeoTiVo

GoHokies! said:


> Who are you talking to? This thread died a year ago.


I say Kudos to the new poster for using the right thread to figure out the issue that is killing all his shows after two hours. That would be a really crappy thing to have happen.

bh757 - hold the cable companies feet to the fire on this, they may not even know what it is they are doing at first and thus honestly deny it is of their doing since they do not know they are doing it. Ask them to check for any recent changes in boradcasting equipment.


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## MighTiVo

GoHokies! said:


> Who are you talking to? This thread died a year ago. If your S3 is doing this for every show, than your cable company is (illegally) setting the copy protection bit.


His first post was here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=360789


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