# Rubicon (Sneak Preview)



## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

The Rubicon sneak preview aired after the season finale of Breaking Bad, I enjoyed what I've seen of it so far (I've only been through 1/2 of it), I'll be setting a SP for it. I was wondering though if anyone else felt that it was a "3 Days of the Condor" remake(imagining)?

There were just several things that came up that seemed to echo 3DotC:

He works with a group of people who look for patterns
He is uncomfortable that he can't talk about his work
Of the main office ppl it's 1 older guy, 3 younger guys and a girl
He shared what he thought was an odd pattern he saw with his boss
His boss is subsequently killed

When he was out for lunch if the entire office had been assassinated I would have thought it must be a remake, but so far there are just elements that seem to be familiar but that could easily just be the type of story it is and that it's just starting.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Looking for patterns, are you? 

I did not follow the pattern that he found in the crosswords. Did anyone catch it?

Also, what kind of crossword puzzle was he doing where he did not know whether the answer would be in English, Gaelic, or Latin?


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

I watched it last night. SP will be set. I liked this one a lot. I loved the way it was filmed. Very good cinematography. 

I was a bit lost on the crossword puzzle pattern as well. I have a feeling that will be detailed out as the show progresses.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Craigbob said:


> I was a bit lost on the crossword puzzle pattern as well. I have a feeling that will be detailed out as the show progresses.


My guess is that all the puzzles involved a 4 leaf clover. The guy who shot himself in the head had a 4 leaf clover on his paper, also.

But if that was the pattern, I do not see the significance. He mentioned something about 3 branches of government, and what was the 4th, but that did not make sense to me.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Going to paraphrase a lot, but this is how I took it.

All major papers had a question about 4 leaf clover.

Then hidden in one was a question or answer that had to do with a president, or executive branch.

Hidden in another was a question or answer about a supreme court justice, judicial branch.

Hidden in another was a question or answer about a senator or representative, legislative branch.

He couldn't find what was hidden in the 4th paper that also had the question about the 4 leaf clover,
so assumed it must be something important, and would be the 4th leaf of the clover.

Someone or group pulling the strings of the other 3 branches of government.

I'm going to try to remember to watch, but will have to watch this episode again closer to August to remember the characters and what the heck is going on.


phox


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Sounds about right, given what I saw. But if someone coordinated the crosswords with those clues, why would they do it? If it is a secret, then you would think those who wish to keep the secret would be crazy to do it. If it is an enemy of the secret organization who is trying to expose the secret, then it is a rather obscure way to go about it.


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

I thought the show was pretty good, so will set a season pass when it comes back in August (August???).

Watched the first third and then went out for supper. Was wracking my brain, trying to figure out where I recognized the main character from and it finally hit me! He's the one who played Lackey (Leckie) on the Pacific!

Cheryl


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Sounds about right, given what I saw. But if someone coordinated the crosswords with those clues, why would they do it? If it is a secret, then you would think those who wish to keep the secret would be crazy to do it. If it is an enemy of the secret organization who is trying to expose the secret, then it is a rather obscure way to go about it.


How easy is it to get your own clues inserted into a large newspaper's crossword?
I say he should go to the newspaper editor of the crossword for some answers.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Sounds about right, given what I saw. But if someone coordinated the crosswords with those clues, why would they do it? If it is a secret, then you would think those who wish to keep the secret would be crazy to do it.


Which is basically what Detective Gharty said after PFC Leckie brought to to his attention...

Looks like a really strange show. I hope it lasts.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Really enjoyed it. 

But can't remember character's names yet.... 

But did you guys catch that Will's (Leckie) boss, David(?-judge from the wire), was his son-in-law? 
At the funeral they said, father to (whatever Will's wife's name was) and father in law to Will. 

And when Will was waiting in the bar for David, the guy who shot himself was on the local news, and it said he was a philanthropist. 

I couldn't find a review of the episode to see if i was right. 

Yay, I show where you really have to pay attention. 
The LOST withdrawal will soon be over


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yes, Leckie married the boss's daughter.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Liked it. Will SP it when it comes back on seemingly years from now.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Do I need to watch the sneak (which is still sitting on the TiVo), or will it be rerun when the series actually starts? I'm thinking I'll wait until it starts just so it's fresh, unless this was a one-off that won't be repeated.


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## pex (Oct 21, 2002)

I saw the sneak preview after the Mad Men premiere and liked what I saw so far.

So did David Bianculli of NPR's Fresh Air: _I've seen the first four episodes of Rubicon, and each one is a little more frightening and mind-blowing. Episode 2 is the one that hooks you, so you have to be a little patient._


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## sieglinde (Aug 11, 2002)

I use thefutoncritic to see what shows are coming up and I noticed that Rubicon was finally in range of my guide. I had watched the sneak preview and am looking forward to this one.

I hope it is a one season "mini series" so that it has a final ending.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

Looking forward to this one, too.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Ok, so back to my OP, tomorrow night is the premier of the full episode of Rubicon, and today, right now in fact, AMC is showing 3 Days of the Condor....

After watching the full sneak preview I didn't see anything else that made stronger connections to 3DotC, but AMC airing the movie the day before? That just seems oddly coincidental.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

SeanC said:


> After watching the full sneak preview I didn't see anything else that made stronger connections to 3DotC, but AMC airing the movie the day before? That just seems oddly coincidental.


Check the crosswords, see if there is a 4th network involved!


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## tgmii (Feb 21, 2002)

I agree with Cindy1230

I liked the first episode. I'm theirs to lose, but I'm pretty sure they will give the series more time than, say, FOX .

Rubicon and MadMen on Sundays will now be two hours that require that you pay attention, and lose track of the rest of the world.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

TV you really have to pay attention to.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

After seeing the second episode of Rubicon, I am losing some enthusiasm. I'm still planning to give it a chance (at least 2 or 3 more episodes), but so far all I see is a sort of Rube Goldberg conspiracy. They are going to have to come up with one hell of a good explanation to convince me that the characters actually have realistic motives for generating all of these complex puzzles.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I really want to punch the donut analyst in the face every time he acts up.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I really want to punch the donut analyst in the face every time he acts up.


Given that the only difference between the way various characters react to him is how much they conceal their contempt, I'm hoping there will come a time when the writers reveal just why anybody keeps him around. Because if this show makes any sense, there must be one hell of a reason!


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

I have a feeling this show fails miserabley. They really need to speed things up enough to make sure they don't go 2-3 episodes with little happening. I felt episode 2 had 20 minutes + of filler. Not a good start.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

NatasNJ said:


> I have a feeling this show fails miserabley. They really need to speed things up enough to make sure they don't go 2-3 episodes with little happening. I felt episode 2 had 20 minutes + of filler. Not a good start.


I'm pretty sure this show is going to be another slow burner like Mad Men and The Wire. Those shows had/have multiple great characters, though. Not sure about Rubicon yet.


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm pretty sure this show is going to be another slow burner like Mad Men and The Wire. Those shows had/have multiple great characters, though. Not sure about Rubicon yet.


Multiple great characters? I don't see it at all yet. I just keep getting 20 minutes of the main guy staring off a roof top. I understand what they are trying to do there versus say when in the movie "Hackers" when the geeks HACK techno music blasts and crazy graphics are all over ones screen as they crack the gisbon!!!!  They are going the opposite direction and trying to show how he thinks and is trying to crack things, etc.. That or pondering suicide.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

The difference is, watching someone just ponder is not exciting!

Is anyone actually loyal to anyone in this show?

If I were the computer geek, and everyone called me HAL, I'd be walking out the door!


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

1. Not sure why they make a big deal about keeping their jobs secret. Surely you could tell your wife/kids that you worked at a think tank (which is what they claimed to be) and did international political analysis (which is what they do). Nothing about that needs to be kept secret.

2. The crosswords were used as a signal; they are not clues or information carriers themselves.

3. I too thought of 3 Days of the Condor after the first few minutes, but that's just because of the setting. In this case I guess they're not really working for the CIA at all.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

The pace seems just about perfect to me. It allows slow dialogue-free scenes like the one with the widow exploring her late husband's secret townhouse and Will's walk home while being shadowed, or the opening scene for that matter with the children playing and the four leaf clover and the suicide. I just love that stuff. So far so good.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, no reason why something has to blow up every minute in every show...


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

I like this show a lot. I hope it gets good reviews.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I like it a lot too. The mood, the pace, the music. It's lulling, but maintains a certain tension so it's not sleep-inducing. Hypnotic in a way. Now the characters are beginning to develop, and they should help to reveal what is, no doubt, a complex plot. I have no complaints so far, and a lot of hope.


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## TomK (May 22, 2001)

I just hope Directv adds AMC HD soon. It's painful watching this (and all other good shows) in SD.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

TomK said:


> I just hope Directv adds AMC HD soon. It's painful watching this (and all other good shows) in SD.


It's not just SD, either. For some reason AMC has a really low bitrate as well. So I get not just SD, but SD with lots of artifacts...


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

TomK said:


> I just hope Directv adds AMC HD soon. It's painful watching this (and all other good shows) in SD.


Dish doesn't have it either.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

I watched the first two eps over the weekend and am liking the show so far. The older guy in the think tank (gray hair, Will's boss) give me an Arvin Sloane from "Alias" vibe. And the other conspiracy guy I haven't seen since he was in "Sledge Hammer!" 

I love conspiracy/mystery shows/movies, so I'll be sticking with this one for a bit. SP set. Incidentally, this is the first AMC original series I've watched (never seen "Breaking Bad" or "Mad Men").

_edit:_ oh, and the music sometimes reminds me "Twin Peaks."


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## desulliv (Aug 22, 2003)

whitson77 said:


> Dish doesn't have it either.


I feel better now.


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

I'm trying to like this show and I am quite surprised my husband hasn't complained about how slow it is yet (he usually does). But he did agree with me when I pointed out last week "ths seems like it ought to be a British show" based on the dryness of it. After having seen "Tom" from MI-5 recently on The Pillars of the Earth, I said last night I expect to see him pop up on this show as well (since it has such an MI-5 vibe about it). 

I just wish there was something a bit light in it somewhere. Everyone just seems so miserable all the time! 

Cheryl


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## caslu (Jun 24, 2003)

As a lover of well done conspiracy thrillers, I'm trying to like this show but so far it's just too boring (well acted, etc... but beyond slow). Anyway, I'm hanging in there in the hopes that it picks up the pace a bit.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I just caught up by watching the first two episodes online (while sitting back at the TV):
http://www.amctv.com/videos/rubicon/

Being that I can't rewatch easily....was the book that David gave Wil "Apple pie something" the same one that the wife found in the townhouse?

I predict it'll turn out that silver-crew-cut boss isn't a bad guy. They're also leaving it open that David may be alive.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

netringer said:


> Being that I can't rewatch easily....was the book that David gave Wil "Apple pie something" the same one that the wife found in the townhouse?


Nope. The gift book was "Apple Pie for Breakfast: The Best Road Food in America" (which doesn't exist... if it did, I'd probably own it. I was hoping for a Jane and Michael Stern product placement...)

The book in the townhouse was some random Graham Greene novel (I think it was The Heart of the Matter)


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

I guess this thread is for the whole series and not just for the first one. 

After three episodes, I am intrigued by the way it's unfolding, but I personally am no closer to understanding the big mystery. I liked the bike sub-plot. The line, "Why would he put my name in a code," "So you'd know when you broke it." was great in its implications.

The Rubicon is a river in Italy, among many other things (Jeep). What is the meaning in this show?

Remember: If you find someone tailing you, don't confront them!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Church AV Guy said:


> The Rubicon is a river in Italy, among many other things (Jeep). What is the meaning in this show?


Well, the classical meaning of Rubicon is passing the point of no return. I assume that will be it, although it's a strange concept to build an ongoing TV series around!


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, the classical meaning of Rubicon is passing the point of no return. I assume that will be it, although it's a strange concept to build an ongoing TV series around!


Ah, yes. I remember that explanation from Defying Gravity. Thanks.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Church AV Guy said:


> Ah, yes. I remember that explanation from Defying Gravity. Thanks.


In the ancient Roman Republic, the Rubicon was the river that was the border between Rome and the provinces. It was considered treason for a Roman commander to bring an army across the Rubicon to Rome. Julius Caesar was up against corruption charges in Rome when he was a general in Gaul (the Senate wanted to get rid of him because he was EXTREMELY popular). The hope was either he would return to Rome (and be assassinated) or stay away (and be convicted in absentia). He chose "none of the above" and led his army across the Rubicon (where he also made the famous statement "The die is cast," although what he really said translates to "Let the dice fly," meaning not "there's no turning back now" but "let's do this thing"), at which point the Roman Republic became the Roman Empire in deed if not word.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

caslu said:


> As a lover of well done conspiracy thrillers, I'm trying to like this show but so far it's just too boring (well acted, etc... but beyond slow). Anyway, I'm hanging in there in the hopes that it picks up the pace a bit.


I wish this show was slow. At least then it would be moving. I've seen grass grow quicker than this.

The first episode was genuinely interesting. The second was ok. This last one was a snoozer. I'm having trouble staying interested due to the pacing. I'm afraid it is very close to falling into the "I'll continue to record them, and wait and see if the buzz picks up any" category. And with only one exception in recent history (Men of a Certain Age), every time a show falls into that it gets deleted, unwatched.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

astrohip said:


> I wish this show was slow. At least then it would be moving. I've seen grass grow quicker than this.
> 
> The first episode was genuinely interesting. The second was ok. This last one was a snoozer. I'm having trouble staying interested due to the pacing. I'm afraid it is very close to falling into the "I'll continue to record them, and wait and see if the buzz picks up any" category. And with only one exception in recent history (Men of a Certain Age), every time a show falls into that it gets deleted, unwatched.


 I just set up the same thing with kmttg for other series, having some new offload space. I figure I don't even have to set "Save Until I Delete" if kmttg Auto transfer gets it in time.

I figure we're building our own series box sets for future use.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> In the ancient Roman Republic ...


MedievalGuy strikes again!


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## samjemb (Jun 6, 2007)

astrohip said:


> I wish this show was slow. At least then it would be moving. I've seen grass grow quicker than this.


I'm with you! I can't remember the last time I started watching a new series that moved more slowly than this. I've given it 3 episodes thus far, and am not the least bit interested in any of the characters, any of the plot threads (what few I have been able to identify, at any rate) or in whatever the big conspiracy winds up being.

Too bad, really. A good friend of mine works on this show, so I hope it attains some success. But I don't know if I can sit through another episode myself.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I tried this tonight....my WORD is it a snail. It was enough to hold my attention and not turn it off. But certainly not good enough for an SP...


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Bierboy said:


> I tried this tonight....my WORD is it a snail. It was enough to hold my attention and not turn it off. But certainly not good enough for an SP...


There is so much staring. Man stares out window at woman. Men stare at each other on the train platform. Woman walks around empty house staring at everything (and then plays the damn phone message over and over and over). Analysts drink booze and stare at each other.

How about more dialog and less staring?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I haven't been frustrated with the pace of the show until now. It seemed to me that things were building nicely toward a take off point and I thought last week was a sign that things were about to start moving. It seemed that way to me anyway. But, I was wrong. 

And is this the least secure intelligence organization in the world? They've got their little meeting room where they're making military decisions (or recommendations) right on the ground floor with a public street just a few yards away. Nice big friendly windows. No perimeter security to speak of other than a few low res external security cams that look like they're from the 80's. I'm sure there are more things that will bother me if they don't move on with the story soon.

The unlikely massive security nightmare of a private intelligence agency that is the defacto nexus of all federal agencies is just something that you have to accept in order for the story get moving. The fourth leaf of the clover--BOO! But they need to start moving now.


In related news, I watched another slow moving spy series last week that was pretty good. Two John Le Carre BBC series from the early 80's starring Alec Guinness as George Smiley. It had the same sort of extremely understated production and complex plotting that I'm hoping for in this show.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

I will admit last night's episode was pretty slow, and didn't seem to advance the plot at all. More like pure character development I guess.

Would the police really hand over the evidence box like that? Bloody sheets and all?


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I haven't been frustrated with the pace of the show until now. It seemed to me that things were building nicely toward a take off point and I thought last week was a sign that things were about to start moving. It seemed that way to me anyway. But, I was wrong.


I thought it started off great, but man, it has become a total yawn fest.

I get it, he's the new kid, a rising star, thanks for mentioning that a dozen times a show.

I don't care about administrative BS, we have that at work, I don't need to see it in a TV show.

I don't care about the 3 analysts having moral issues with issuing a kill order.

I wish there was more dagger and less cloak.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

windracer said:


> I will admit last night's episode was pretty slow, and didn't seem to advance the plot at all. More like pure character development I guess.


That speech that the boss gave was enlightening. Just when I thinking that these guys were the CIA or the NSA he points out that API is an independent group and they need the independent opinion.

Sorry, though, I refuse to believe that the Pentagon and the CIA would let these inexperienced guys be the lead on the decision to drop a bomb from a Predator drone.



windracer said:


> Would the police really hand over the evidence box like that? Bloody sheets and all?


That did bother me. I'd like to think that the cops would call first and ask if the stuff is wanted, and arrange a meeting or deliver the stuff in person, but then it is Nassau County.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

SP deleted. Can't take it any more. I was going to record & save for (possibly) viewing later, but it hasn't gotten any better, and I know I will never watch it.

I really wanted to like this . . .


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

netringer said:


> Sorry, though, I refuse to believe that the Pentagon and the CIA would let these inexperienced guys be the lead on the decision to drop a bomb from a Predator drone.


I had a problem with that too. I can see API analyzing data and offering a viewpoint but for the ultimate kill decision and its collateral damage to be outsourced to a group of junior analysts makes little sense.

The other thing that bothers me is that the information revolution seems to have passed API by. Nobody has a computer except for the one "computer guy" we met. It's more like cold war technology than 2010. Paper files and photographs. Nothing remotely real time. No data mining. It's beyond me why agencies like the CIA and NSA would consult with such a technologically prehistoric company.

I don't understand how whomever it is who is responsible for this show couldn't know that the glacial pace, lack of interesting characters and lack of even the littlest bit of humor wouldn't start boring his audience to tears by now. I'm going to stick with it but it better hope none of the new shows I want to see have a tivo scheduling conflict with it.


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

Now, I actually though this week's episode was the most interesting so far. 

Really quite fascinating to follow the three in the room and their analysis of whether to give the go on the assassination or not. 

So what are the thoughts on the girl and all the drugs she's taking, the vomitting, etc? Does she have cancer or something or it is that she's just an addict? That seems too simple to me...

Cheryl


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I had a problem with that too. I can see API analyzing data and offering a viewpoint but for the ultimate kill decision and its collateral damage to be outsourced to a group of junior analysts makes little sense.


Yeah, I figured it was a test. It surprised me when it ended up seeming to be real.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I had a problem with that too. I can see API analyzing data and offering a viewpoint but for the ultimate kill decision and its collateral damage to be outsourced to a group of junior analysts makes little sense.


Maybe the higher-ups are just letting them _think_ they've made that decision ...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

In all honesty, I thought Will's boss was going to tell them it was only a test.

Four episodes in and I still only know the lead character's name. That's not a good sign.

I hope I never see the excruciatingly boring boss again.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I hope I never see the excruciatingly boring boss again.


I suppose it says something about the show when I ask, in all sincerity, which one?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suppose it says something about the show when I ask, in all sincerity, which one?


The big boss. The one he traveled with to Washington and who bought him the boring briefcase. Jeez, now I just remembered his really boring speech about briefcase clasps. Thanks.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> The big boss. The one he traveled with to Washington and who bought him the boring briefcase. Jeez, now I just remembered his really boring speech about briefcase clasps. Thanks.


Heh.

Although his being boring actually had a purpose...he was in effect showing Will the road that Will has started to go down. A pathetic, boring old man who only comes alive when he's playing the game (his tie speech was brilliant...started out WTF and ended up HFC). I have a feeling he won't be around much.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Heh.
> 
> Although his being boring actually had a purpose...he was in effect showing Will the road that Will has started to go down. A pathetic, boring old man who only comes alive when he's playing the game (his tie speech was brilliant...started out WTF and ended up HFC). I have a feeling he won't be around much.


But if the real world application of his "We don't care about your tie" speech was the three analysts debating over the kill order, he was wrong. They did care about the "data". Even though they gave the thumbs up, they showed - or at least two of them did - that they did care about the collateral damage. Personally, I think they only gave unanimous approval because they wanted to go home at 5:00.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Heh.
> 
> Although his being boring actually had a purpose...he was in effect showing Will the road that Will has started to go down. A pathetic, boring old man who only comes alive when he's playing the game (his tie speech was brilliant...started out WTF and ended up HFC). I have a feeling he won't be around much.


He used the word Sartorial! How often do you hear terms like that on network television? When did that ever happen on Three and a Half Men? It's rather refreshing to hear something at least verging on intellectual.

I hope there is a payoff after the writers have spent so much time setting up the Dominos.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

Church AV Guy said:


> I hope there is a payoff after the writers have spent so much time setting up the Dominos.


As long as they don't go all "Lost" on us!


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

speedcouch said:


> Really quite fascinating to follow the three in the room and their analysis of whether to give the go on the assassination or not.


I thought it was interesting at first, but when the computer guy (I don't know many names on this show) suddenly flip-flopped for no apparent reason, I lost interest.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

windracer said:


> MedievalGuy strikes again!


Cathedrals were built faster than Rubicon develops...


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

astrohip said:


> SP deleted. Can't take it any more. I was going to record & save for (possibly) viewing later, but it hasn't gotten any better, and I know I will never watch it.
> 
> I really wanted to like this . . .


What didn't you like about it?


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

He thought the pace was too frenetic.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

I used to complain about the show being so slow paced, but now I find it oddly soothing. A great show to fall asleep to.

Perhaps not the most resounding endorsement, but I'm still in for a while.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I thought "Connect The Dots" was the best episode since the pilot.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

I got a little confused when Will went to Ed's house to tell him they had the wrong Donald Bloom, it was some high school kid in Oregon ("there's no oil in Oregon!"). Was he doing that to throw off the people following him, or did I miss something?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

windracer said:


> I got a little confused when Will went to Ed's house to tell him they had the wrong Donald Bloom, it was some high school kid in Oregon ("there's no oil in Oregon!"). Was he doing that to throw off the people following him, or did I miss something?


My interpretation was that Ed was starting to become obsessed with the case and Will knew he needed to shut him down before he went bonkers again.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> My interpretation was that Ed was starting to become obsessed with the case and Will knew he needed to shut him down before he went bonkers again.


Exactly.

And his kindness worked to his advantage, because he didn't know that they were being watched. So when the Conspiracy People listened to the tapes, they took him at face value...that he had given up on it all. Therefore, they don't have to kill him but he gets to keep working on it.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

Cool, thanks for the clarification.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I'm about to bail.

As I'm watching I'm thinking I didn't remember where Donald Bloom "one of the list of 7(?) to look into" came from and I need to re-watch the last episode. It's entirely possible I dozed off during the last episode.

Then I thought I can spend my 50 minutes better with another show.

Didja pick up on the strong hint that Kale and Donald were gay lovers? "I see you on the balcony." "Except we killed people" "That was what made it so special." Yeech.

If Kale had worked for the City of Chicago when he did such a blatant strong arm of his subordinates to contribute to the boss's wife's charity, "Please donate $250," he'd have been indicted by US Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald. That was half of what brought down IL Gov George Ryan. Ya can't do that, even in private business.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

netringer said:


> Ya can't do that, even in private business.


Although if I had $1 for every time I've gotten the United Way shakedown...


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

kaszeta said:


> Although if I had $1 for every time I've gotten the United Way shakedown...


Yeahbut they're careful to say you don't have to contribute, even if you _do_ have to listen to the pitch.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

netringer said:


> Yeahbut they're careful to say you don't have to contribute, even if you _do_ have to listen to the pitch.


"You don't *have* to contribute, but every year we've been able to say we've had 100% participation. You wouldn't want to be the one to screw that up, would you?"


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

kaszeta said:


> "You don't *have* to contribute, but every year we've been able to say we've had 100% participation. You wouldn't want to be the one to screw that up, would you?"


They define 100% participation as going to the pitch, ...right?


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

netringer said:


> They define 100% participation as going to the pitch, ...right?


I laid $1 on the table and left. That was my participation.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

I have absolutely no idea what this last episode was about. It wasn't just the Donald Bloom fake. I'm starting to reconsider my last comment.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> My interpretation was that Ed was starting to become obsessed with the case and Will knew he needed to shut him down before he went bonkers again.


Yeah, I got that. It worked in favor in BOTH ways.

I really liked this week's episode. I'm not sure I could explain why though.

This is an odd show in that the first half of the show has no commercials. The second half has so many commercial breaks that she show as a whole has the same number of breaks as most other shows. It is longer than most shows by about 4 minutes.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

I used to wonder why many of the characters all behaved to oddly and talked funny. Now I'm beginning to think that the kind of fact crunching brain suited for a job in a think tank is probably not exactly neurotypical, and that they all have some form high functioning autism of one degree or another.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

The whole papering the wall with paper clippings and notes is direct rip from "A Beautiful Mind." "JFK! Dallas!...although this is Houston!"

Notice that after Wil got freaked by Ed papering the wall, he went home and the did same thing on his floor.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

It seems like an awfully small group considering the amount of data they are given each day to process. They need to replace Will on the team since they lost the boss, and Will has taken that job.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

jschuur said:


> I used to wonder why many of the characters all behaved to oddly and talked funny. Now I'm beginning to think that the kind of fact crunching brain suited for a job in a think tank is probably not exactly neurotypical, and that *they all have some form high functioning autism of one degree or another.*


This!!!

I want to like this show and will watch again but it has a slow, dark depressing air about it. Some is the cinematography.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

SeanC said:


> Ok, so back to my OP, tomorrow night is the premier of the full episode of Rubicon, and today, right now in fact, AMC is showing 3 Days of the Condor....
> 
> After watching the full sneak preview I didn't see anything else that made stronger connections to 3DotC, but AMC airing the movie the day before? That just seems oddly coincidental.


Ahem. Should be 6dotc. Book was better than movie.

Like the show and I see the resemblance.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

"Look to the Ant" 8/29/2010

Strong episode. Will was about to freak out like Gene Hackman at the end of "The Conversation" looking for bugs in his apartment. Ingram unnerved him.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

"Do you speak Urdu?"

[baffled] "Doesn't everybody?"


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

Just like Deadwood back in the day, I've found it helps to go back and read the lengthy episode summaries on the AMC site after each episode. Amusingly, it even includes redacted phrases, just like a real declassified intelligence briefing.

What I'm still confused about is Kale. Whatever the conspiracy and secret organization is, Kale, despite his rank, doesn't seem a part of it. Or is he? Is he aware of it, recognizes that Will isn't suitable material to be included, so he's warning him to not get too close, because of the potential consequences?

I also don't have a complete grasp on how API fits into the national picture. I thought it was an independent think tank, run by former intelligence agents, that the government outsources work to (potentially so they can cast the blame if things go wrong). However, the AMC site bills it as a 'federal intelligence agency'. So is it part of the government or not?


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

I liked this episode a lot. I enjoy what they are building up - let's hope they have this planned out well. It takes courage to tell a story like this on television - like letting the simple scenes where people just move things or pack a bag dictate intention. 

Someone should count actual lines of dialog on this show vs an average show.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Will can tell you what you had for lunch based on your license plate number but he can't see a booty call staring him in the face.

This was another pretty good episode. The pacing is still pretty slow but it's no longer glacial.

I guess the Katherine Rhumor arc will merge with Will's arc relatively soon.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

Fool Me Twice said:


> "Look to the Ant" 8/29/2010
> 
> Strong episode. Will was about to freak out like Gene Hackman at the end of "The Conversation" looking for bugs in his apartment. Ingram unnerved him.


+1 I was wondering if anyone else would get The Conversation vibe. For those not familiar with it, it's a great movie and holds up well after 35 years.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

netringer said:


> The whole papering the wall with paper clippings and notes is direct rip from "A Beautiful Mind." "JFK! Dallas!...although this is Houston!"
> 
> Notice that after Wil got freaked by Ed papering the wall, he went home and the did same thing on his floor.


How do you call this a "RIP?" It is standard practice for this type of work. You yourself list multiple references, and I could add many more. It's SOP.



Fool Me Twice said:


> "Look to the Ant" 8/29/2010
> 
> Strong episode. Will was about to freak out like Gene Hackman at the end of "The Conversation" looking for bugs in his apartment. Ingram unnerved him.


Well, he DID find a LOT of devices in his apartment. That'd make paranoid. The real question is, was he told this to make him paranoid, or so he'd know, or so he could get rid of them? His office too. Where is a safe place? Are these the one's he's supposed to find, but the other ones he is not supposed to find are still there? He should have asked how to sweep his place for bugs, rather than just disassembling everything. I half expected him to find a cockroach or something while he was looking.

That was one of the most unromantic "romance" scenes I have ever seen. When he said he didn't know she cared at all for him, I half expected her to admit that she didn't.

"I expect SOME respect based on my seniority!" "Nope!"


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

Church AV Guy said:


> Well, he DID find a LOT of devices in his apartment. That'd make paranoid. The real question is, was he told this to make him paranoid, or so he'd know, or so he could get rid of them?


Maybe Ingram put them there himself when he broke into Will's apartment at the very beginning of the episode?

And maybe I missed something obvious, or noticed something subtle, but when Miles packed his bag after he and the other intelligence agent were done listening to the wedding, the camera panned down to specifically show him pack his bag. I rewatched that a few times to see if I could figure out why. The only thing I could come up with is that he appears to have an episode of the DC Comic "The Adventures of the Outsiders" in his bag and "The Outsider" was the name of the episode where they made the strike call. Coincidence?

Katherine and Will are sure to meet soon ... I mean, beyond their brief meeting at the fund raiser dinner last episode. Apparently Atlas MacDonald is the key there ...



cheesesteak said:


> Will can tell you what you had for lunch based on your license plate number but he can't see a booty call staring him in the face.


LOL! And even after that one CIA agent told Will _never_ to confront someone tailing him, he goes and does it again, at gunpoint this time! And like that quick camera phone shot he took would even come out.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Church AV Guy said:


> "I expect SOME respect based on my seniority!" "Nope!"


I want to punch this guy every time I see him.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

windracer said:


> Maybe Ingram put them there himself when he broke into Will's apartment at the very beginning of the episode?


He very well might have. I expect that sequence was to suggest he did. All I was suggesting was that finding all those devices would have freaked out almost anybody. I was not surprised to see Will freak out just a bit.

clearly Will's investigation has touched a really sensitive nerve with someone really important. In the first episode when David told Kale that no one else knew about the crossword puzzles, then he left all those clues for Will, he knew something was up. Considering all that happened, he must have known, or at least suspected, that he was going to die.

An intersting question is, does the threat cause Will to back off, or does it confirm to him that he's onto something and actually cause him to redouble his efforts? It might backfire on whoever is trying to get him to stop.


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## fred2 (Jan 20, 2006)

I looked last week but could not find anything - is this a limited run series like everyone's favorite "Persons Unknown" or a long term show?


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## alyssa (Dec 7, 2003)

Anyone else catch the writer on this ep? Joss Whedon's son, Will Whedon


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

alyssa said:


> Anyone else catch the writer on this ep? Joss Whedon's son, Will Whedon


Um, I really doubt it...his kids are just kids.

[edit] Upon further investigation, it was probably written by his brother, Zack Whedon (who is the script editor for the show).


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## alyssa (Dec 7, 2003)

ahh, yes, I stand corrected. I just did a double check & yes, you are right. It was Zack.

Regardless, I was surprised to see a Whedon listed at the end of the opening credits.

(where did i get "will" from?? I've confused myself)


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

"The Truth Will Out" 8/5/2010

Another strong episode. More character scenes and everyone has a secret. 

So, Ed knew about the new crossword code before Will ever came to him. Interesting.

"Oh, God! There's someone..." There's someone what? Did someone visit Ed at that moment? Who and why? Maybe the same non-clandestine intruders that invaded Katherine's home (come on fellas, knock on the door first). Not only are the spies on this show bad at tailing people, they're also bad at hiding bugs.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Fool Me Twice said:


> *Another* strong episode...


That doesn't seem to be the consensus here...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I thought "The Truth Will Out" 8/5/2010 was very good. Maybe good enough that I might even start a stand-alone thread next week.

Will is one hard headed or just plain dumb dude. He does everything he's told not to do. That obsession is probably what makes him so good at his job.

Hard to imagine how Will got to Spangler's office without being detected. Even with the FBI agents monitoring everything, I'd have thought there's be closed circuit monitoring of the boss' office.

I chuckled when Spangler played tough guy about refusing to take a polygraph because he was so important but then meekly submitted to it five seconds later.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Will is one hard headed or just plain dumb dude. He does everything he's told not to do. That obsession is probably what makes him so good at his job.


Probably what made him so good at his old job, and maybe not so good at his new job...

He's not good at toeing the company line, and he's not good at dealing with subordinates. Management doesn't seem to be his thing.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

There's not a lot of humor in this show, but I chuckled when Kale was asked if anyone on his team could run a covert operation and he was disappointed that his truthful answer was "No."


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I'm still watching this show. I would definitely say this last episode was the best.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> There's not a lot of humor in this show, but I chuckled when Kale was asked if anyone on his team could run a covert operation and he was disappointed that his truthful answer was "No."


You're probably right but I took that scene to be Kale proving that he could beat the polygraph because he knows Will is rather poorly running a covert operation.


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

This show is awesome. My favorite one on TV right now.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

whitson77 said:


> This show is awesome. My favorite one on TV right now.


You must have a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG attention span...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> You must have a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG attention span...


Which is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO something to be ashamed of...


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

I just like to pretend that it's an overly faithful adaptation of a 2,000 page novel. They couldn't decide what to cut from the book so they're showing it all, page by page.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

whitson77 said:


> This show is awesome. My favorite one on TV right now.


I agree completely. Minority opinion I assume.

Things I learned. 1) When the polygrapher asks a question, DON'T just blurt out, "I took a file home and lost it!" That was not an answer to the question she had asked. 2) Whenever you PROMISE your wife you'll make your daughter's play, SOMETHING unexpected will prevent you from attending, and that something cannot be discussed or explained without violating security. 3) don't get caught rummaging through files in your boss's office. 4) A polygrapher has the authority to allow you to smoke in a an otherwise non-smoking area. 5) Being so nervous that you get a big response for every question makes you unreadable, and for the audience (if not the FBI) VERY suspicious.

So, he stole the CD, *AND* the bug in the owl was there, then gone, then was back. Someone other than the "mole" the FBI found is still there, illegally bugging his office.


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## Thom (Jun 5, 2000)

While the first guy was being caught in the boss's office rummaging through files, I had to wonder why the second guy was there if not to also rummage through the boss's files. 

I suspect what the boss noticed later was due to the second guy's actions, but I no longer have the show to check and see.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

That's a good point. He noticed the files misplaced, and the paperweight moved. Did he suspect he FBI, or did he KNOW someone else was there?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

TampaThunder said:


> I just like to pretend that it's an overly faithful adaptation of a 2,000 page novel. They couldn't decide what to cut from the book so they're showing it all, page by page.


How about word for word?


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

How much time has passed since the pilot episode (in the show)? It seems like it was winter and cold and snowy when Katherine's husband committed suicide after seeing the crosswords in the paper, and now when she left the house all the trees are lush and green. I didn't think it had been a few months, but I guess it has ...


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> You must have a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG attention span...


Nope. Just good taste I guess. Are you a big fan of reality tv?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I just TiVo-speed-watched The Time Traveler's Wife. I only realized this guy:








was "Kale Ingram" 








when I recognized his idiosyncrasies and body language.

Arliss Howard, who I've never noticed before, is is a helluva actor. I'm liking him.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

BTW, when Will went to "Hal" to do a computer search for "Kale Ingram and Donald Bloom."


Didja notice that the API analysts don't use PCs? It's all on paper. The analysts at the high-powered guvmint intelligence agency can't use teh google? Maybe they can get with the "Covert Affairs" guys in the CIA who have everything on their computers.
Will had to go to "Hal" at the server console in the cage of the datacenter? Desktop computers haven't been invented yet? - even for the sysadmins?
Hal: "It's a monitored file. If I open it "they" will know." They will know you just did the search, too, Hal.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> ...I guess the Katherine Rhumor arc will merge with Will's arc relatively soon.


It was only on rewatching that I realized that Will and Katherine actually talked to each other at Spangler's party, and that Will noted who Spangler was drinking with, because he had Wheeler's name on one of the post-it notes.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

netringer said:


> Didja notice that the API analysts don't use PCs? It's all on paper. The analysts at the high-powered guvmint intelligence agency can't use teh google?


Yeah, this bugs me. Research analysts making life and death decisions without modern technology.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> ...Hard to imagine how Will got to Spangler's office without being detected. Even with the FBI agents monitoring everything, I'd have thought there's be closed circuit monitoring of the boss' office.


Yep. "Sorry. You can't leave the room," but Will and Kale can wander around at random.


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

If I start watching this tonight, how lost will I be?


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> If I start watching this tonight, how lost will I be?


Very. Just start from the beginning.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> If I start watching this tonight, how lost will I be?


Like Columbus.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Like Columbus.


Except he had an unexpected continent in his path.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> If I start watching this tonight, how lost will I be?


Whassa matter you? You just missed the Rubicon marathon last Saturday.

Set up a SP on your Tivo with at least 10 episodes and Keep until I Delete and wait for the next Marathon.

Not only will you want to watch Rubicon in sequence, if you have the space, you'll do well to keep the old episodes to rewatch them.

_Edit:_ You can still watch the first two episodes of Rubicon online: http://www.amctv.com/videos/rubicon/


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Not that we'd miss it....


> Tonight's #Rubicon is best 1 yet.Fantastic characters, great actg, terrific atmosph, plot mvment. I concur w @sepinwall http://bit.ly/aDZI9Q
> 
> http://twitter.com/moryan


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> I want to like this show and will watch again but it has a slow, dark depressing air about it. Some is the cinematography.


Something about the pacing and cinematography keeps making me forget it's a US based show not a UK one.

When the guy thought a 13 hour flight could mean Kazakhstan, I thought it was a goof  it's no where near that long from the UK. 15 minutes later: Oh, yeah. They're from the US.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

> Like I said, this show should be setting off alarm bells left and right for me. The creator, Jason Horwitch, left after the pilot over creative differences, which generally doesn't sound like a recipe for success for a show as story-driven as this one. ... Eight episodes in (counting Sunday's episode), I'm as in the dark about what the big conspiracy is about as Will is, and I have a more omniscient view of this world than he does.
> 
> But Henry Bromell, who took over as showrunner from Horwitch, has done a lot of very smart things. First, he reconceived the show's workplace setting, the American Policy Institute, from an amorphous think tank into an independent part of the American intelligence community, which considerably raises the stakes of the conspiracy, and which allows some of the show's non-conspiracy stories to have greater weight.... By making API a part of the larger spy world, Bromell has created the framework for the series to easily tell compelling stories that don't have anything to do with the main arc (or at least don't seem to), and to keep the series going whenever Will finally unravels the big mystery.
> 
> http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-a...-became-much-more-than-a-conspiracy-thriller#


This makes me a bit unsettled. It is "setting off alarm bells left and right." No matter how much I'm following and enjoying Rubicon, I'm thinking if they don't have a clear endpoint in mind I'm wasting time I could spend catching up and much better series.

They better have the plot arc coming back down by season end.

I never got hooked into Lost. Reading how Lost went I think I would really feel ripped off of my time.

They _had better_ blow the conspiracy open and go on rather than have it hang overhead for years.

Speculation:


Spoiler



The next big plot point would be the assassination by Bloom happening.
Maybe Katherine meeting up with Will somehow.


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

I wish I could post this in the Rubicon renewed thread, but it is just one of the shows creators talking about what they would plan for the second season. So so minor spoilers and a more detailed explanation about what is going on behind the scenes at AMC. I thought it was a good read.

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Rubicon-Henry-Bromell-1024646.aspx?rss=breakingnews

E-mail AMC to keep the show.

[email protected]


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