# Cablecard HD Tivo and DirecTV?



## Hobbit (Sep 2, 2005)

Does anyone know if the upcoming cablecard HD Tivo will be able to control standalone HD DirecTV receivers via a serial connection or IR connection?

Since DirecTV has dropped Tivo, I will not be purchasing any new DVR from DirecTV in the future. I love my Tivo!

Instead what I'd ideally like to have is a dual tuner standalone HD Tivo and two standalone HD DirecTV receivers. That way I can get the best of both worlds. I'll have a fully functioning Tivo with all its new features, plus two tuners with HD content.

Yes, I'd be converting the DirecTV HD signal in order to record it on the Tivo and would likely be losing some picture quality in the process, but I'm willing to give that up in order to keep two tuners.

Does anyone know if such a setup will be possible with the upcoming equipment?


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## lee espinoza (Aug 21, 2002)

Hobbit said:


> Does anyone know if the upcoming cablecard HD Tivo will be able to control standalone HD DirecTV receivers via a serial connection or IR connection?
> 
> Since DirecTV has dropped Tivo, I will not be purchasing any new DVR from DirecTV in the future. I love my Tivo!
> 
> ...


Nope directv and dish are exempt from the cablecard "law"


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## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

The series 3 will be for cable and OTA only.


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## Hobbit (Sep 2, 2005)

Well that just sucks.  

Maybe I should start looking at Dish instead of DirecTV. Maybe the folks running Dish aren't stupid enough to prevent Tivos from working with their satellite receivers like Murdoch is doing.

Thanks for the info.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

You'll get the same results if you switch to Dish. There's no satellite input capability on the S3 TiVo.


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## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

It isn't a stupidity problem, it's a technology problem. A box capable of doing what you want would cost thousands of dollars.


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## Hobbit (Sep 2, 2005)

Well, then, maybe I'm not making myself clear about what I'm talking about.

I'm not looking for a integrated dual tuner HD Tivo that can accept satellite inputs like the DirecTivo does. I know that will never happen now that Murdoch is running things.

Originally I had a standlone S1 Tivo hooked to a standlone DirecTV receiver. I used the S-video output of the DirecTV receiver hooked to the Tivo to get the audio and video. The Tivo changed channels on the receiver via a serial wire connection.

This setup worked extremely well and only cost a few hundred dollars.

What I am looking for is an updated equivalent of the original setup in the upcoming HD world and one that has dual tuner:

A standalone dual tuner HD Tivo.
Two standalone HD DirecTV receivers.
The units hooked together with the HD equivalent of S-video, whatever that is called.
The Tivo changing channels on the receivers via serial wires (or IR blasters).

The DirecTV receivers will be leased in the future so they will cost only a few dollars a month.

All of the cost will be in the standalone Tivo. If the cablecard HD Tivo already comes with two tuners, then it already has almost everything it needs. The only additional bit needed is the serial control output for changing channels just like it did on the original S1 Tivo. It just has to have two of them. It's got to have something like that anyway, won't it?

I can't see how this would cost thousands of dollars, unless the cablecard Tivo itself will cost that much, which I doubt.

Does this make sense?


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## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

The problem is that to record an HD signal, you would need to record from either DVI/HDMI or component. Both of these are uncompressed signals. The equipment needed to compress HD realtime is still out of reach of most people, as you are looking at several thousand bucks. 

The reason the HD Directivo and the upcoming series 3 unit are able to handle HD is because they record the already compressed MPEG-2 HD signal as sent by Directv, cable, or you local stations, no compression is necessary.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

maharg18 said:


> The problem is that to record an HD signal, you would need to record from either DVI/HDMI or component. Both of these are uncompressed signals. The equipment needed to compress HD realtime is still out of reach of most people, as you are looking at several thousand bucks.


I'd guess it is significantly more than that. The last time I recall someone doing a search the realtime HiDefinition encoder that was found was like $40,000.

So cost wise this seems like a non starter until the prices have fallen drastically (which could be close to a decade). And even then you get the hassle of handling controlling two separate HiDef boxes if you want dual tuner (and making sure that the boxes don't accidentally receive each other's commands; always an issue if you stick with IR).


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## HogarthNH (Dec 28, 2001)

Jonathan_S said:


> I'd guess it is significantly more than that. The last time I recall someone doing a search the realtime HiDefinition encoder that was found was like $40,000.


You're half right  
http://www.visiblelight.com/mall/catalogview.aspx?cat=228


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

HogarthNH said:


> You're half right
> http://www.visiblelight.com/mall/catalogview.aspx?cat=228


Now, if only I'd been 1/400th right, it might be practical in a high end consumer electronics box.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Don't the new HD consumer video cams compress to tape or DVD?


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## HogarthNH (Dec 28, 2001)

vstone said:


> Don't the new HD consumer video cams compress to tape or DVD?


They record a digital stream from CCDs already designed to produce the correct kind of signal.

Have you tried transcoding video on your PC?
Even if you have a dual processor 3+ GHz system, it's just not easy. It's certainly not realtime.

H


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## Hobbit (Sep 2, 2005)

Okay, I think I'm missing something really basic about HD setups then.

If OTA and cable HD signals are already compressed, then than means that HD TVs must be accepting compressed signals as input, right?

Well, then, wouldn't an HD DirecTV receiver have to output a compressed signal as well so the HD TV could show it just the same as a cable HD signal?

If that's the case, why can't an HD Tivo be stuck in the middle between the compressed output of a DirecTV receiver and the HD TV, just like it can be between the output of an HD cable box and the HD TV?

That's just how you set up any other standalone Tivo - by putting in between the signal source (output of a cable box, etc.) and the TV.

Why is this different for HD setups?

I understand that the new HD DirecTV satellite signals will use a different compression, but that new compression can't be passed on in the signal directly to the HD TV because it has to be able to receive OTA and cable style compression which is different from what you are saying. So the output of the HD DirecTV receiver has to match the way the cable and OTA signals are compressed, I think.

What basic thing about HD setups am I missing here?


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## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

No, HD receivers output an UNCOMPRESSED signal to the TV. DVI, HDMI, and component are all uncompressed signals.

The series 3 Tivo will replace the cable box, not sit between it and the TV.


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## Hobbit (Sep 2, 2005)

Ah! Thanks, that's what I missing.

I didn't know that the HD Tivo replaced the cable box. That's what the cablecard stuff is all about then. I thought it was just a rule that allowed external boxes to control cable boxes. I didn't realize it was for replacing the cable box itself.

I guess I am really and truly screwed then. No new HD Tivo will be able to record anything from new HD DirecTV, ever, it seems.

So the dilemma is then to use the very poor DVR that DirecTV is now offering, or switch to HD cable and get an HD cablecard Tivo.

Good grief, what a choice: terrible DVR and good HD satellite signals, or great Tivo and terrible HD cable signals (and price).  

What choices here are other folks making?


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## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

As much as I despise Comcast, I will seriously considering going back to them when the Series 3 comes out. 

Also, concerning HD quality, Directv is widely regarded as having the worst quality at this point due to compression and downrezzing. Hopefully that will change someday, but for the time being most HD on cable should be superior.


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## Hobbit (Sep 2, 2005)

I see. Around here it is Time Warner instead of Comcast. I'll have to check out what they are offering now.

I admit the last I looked at Time Warner cable was many years ago when I got fed up with ever increasing prices, no additional channels, and terrible quality SD signals and switched to DirecTV. Maybe they have made big improvements since then. I can only hope so.

Sounds like I'm going to have to turn in my DirecTV badge and go back to cable.

If this is what Murdoch wanted when he ousted Tivo, then that's what's he's going to get.


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## DesignDawg (Aug 10, 2005)

Hobbit said:


> So the dilemma is then to use the very poor DVR that DirecTV is now offering, or switch to HD cable and get an HD cablecard Tivo.


Well, no, not really. Unless you are talking about the HR10-250 being the "very poor DVR", you don't have this as an option. There is no non-TiVo HD DVR for DirecTV yet. --And won't be for a good while most likely. Yes, the R15 is very poor, no doubt. But not by design. It's buggy. When the bugs get worked out, it will be a fantastic box. And that may very well be before the HD version is on the shelves. So you have some time before you really know what your options are. Keep an open mind. The HD DVR DirecTV puts out may not be bad at all...

Ricky

Another thing to note: the only comments I ever see about DirecTV's HD signals are that they suck. Everyone calls them "HD-Lite", and claim that the OTA HD channels look so much better. COnversely, most of the people I know who have HD cable (We're Time Warner around here) are blown away by the quality. YMMV of course, but I wouldn't assume DirecTV=great HD and cable=terrible HD.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Hobbit said:


> Ah! Thanks, that's what I missing.
> 
> I didn't know that the HD Tivo replaced the cable box. That's what the cablecard stuff is all about then. I thought it was just a rule that allowed external boxes to control cable boxes. I didn't realize it was for replacing the cable box itself.


But based upon the information that I have, it will not replace the cable box completely. Cablecards will not allow PPV purchases and OnDemand viewing, which could be big if you want to use bundled OnDemand like our cable system does with HBO.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

DesignDawg said:


> Yes, the R15 is very poor, no doubt. But not by design. It's buggy. When the bugs get worked out, it will be a fantastic box.


Based upon the current design and feature set of the "Other DVR", to a DirecTiVo user it will likely never be a "fantastic box", but just another DVR or worst depending upon the features the TiVo user uses.

IMHO, compared to a hacked older Series 2 DirecTiVo (three to four years old), the "Other DVR" even after it has been de-bugged will still be light-years behind.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

DesignDawg said:


> Another thing to note: the only comments I ever see about DirecTV's HD signals are that they suck. Everyone calls them "HD-Lite", and claim that the OTA HD channels look so much better. COnversely, most of the people I know who have HD cable (We're Time Warner around here) are blown away by the quality. YMMV of course, but I wouldn't assume DirecTV=great HD and cable=terrible HD.


A lot depends on the setup. you would be amazed at the number of supposed HD installs that use S-Video or composite connector. If you don't use the component, DVI or HDMI you are NOT getting HD.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

tbeckner said:


> Based upon the current design and feature set of the "Other DVR", to a DirecTiVo user it will likely never be a "fantastic box", but just another DVR or worst depending upon the features the TiVo user uses.
> 
> IMHO, compared to a hacked older Series 2 DirecTiVo (three to four years old), the "Other DVR" even after it has been de-bugged will still be light-years behind.


What features are missing to have you make this statement?

While currently it isn't as good as TiVo it has the ability to be as good and better in some aspects. Also please don't say the UI as thats purely subjective I use both of them on a daily basis and I can't say I like one over the other.


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## Ramy (Jul 30, 2004)

Does anyone know when the new standalone HD Tivo is coming out?


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## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

All we know is "2nd half of 2006"


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Kanyon71 said:


> What features are missing to have you make this statement?
> 
> While currently it isn't as good as TiVo it has the ability to be as good and better in some aspects. Also please don't say the UI as thats purely subjective I use both of them on a daily basis and I can't say I like one over the other.


If you are a DirecTiVo user then you have an idea what is missing, like 30-second skip and dual-tuner buffers on a standard DirecTiVo, and features like Home Media Option and Multi-Room Viewing on hacked DirecTiVos, and some features that I cannot discuss on this forum. In addition, currently it appears that the storage cannot be expanded on the "Other DVR", which I really don't view as a hacked feature.

And of course a hacked TiVo can do ENDPADDING (which is somewhat like the new ENDPADDING feature released by TiVo for the StandAlones), Customizable Caller-ID, and far too many additional features that can be listed in a reasonable post.

I am not saying that the "Other DVR" is really BAD, just that when you compare, it just does not compare very well, and compared to a hacked DirecTiVo there really isn't any comparison. And this isn't saying that it doesn't have a feature or two that I would like on the DirecTiVo, like showing that a show it selected for recording in the grid, now that would be nice.

But there really isn't any way I could ever get excited enough to call it "fantastic". So to me, it is just another DVR and currently it is one that I do not plan on buying or renting.

BTW, I wouldn't compare the UI of either machine top each other. The problem with the TiVo UI is that it is seven years old and is starting to get a little "Long in the Tooth", which of course means OLD.

The biggest problem with the "Other DVR" is that it is new and buggy, and some of the missing features like dual-tuner buffering could take a very long time to implement.

Since you have DirecTiVos, then you at least have some backup to get past the recording guide bugs on the "Other DVR", like the First Run/Repeat problem.

I wish you the best of luck with the "Other DVR", and I hope you can survive until DirecTV gets all of the bugs fixed.


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## Wolffpack (May 28, 2003)

lee espinoza said:


> Nope directv and dish are exempt from the cablecard "law"


Something I hope will be changing. No reason why they should be exempt.

If Rupert makes the decision to be a service provider and a hardware manufacturer, then other manufacturers should be allowed to compete.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

tbeckner said:


> But based upon the information that I have, it will not replace the cable box completely. Cablecards will not allow PPV purchases and OnDemand viewing, which could be big if you want to use bundled OnDemand like our cable system does with HBO.


That is true of CableCard 1.0, however the CableCard 2.0 spec supports PPV and VOD, as well as other interactive functions.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Dan Collins said:


> That is true of CableCard 1.0, however the CableCard 2.0 spec supports PPV and VOD, as well as other interactive functions.


I know, you are right. I just read a great informational article on CableCards just this afternoon and the link is enclosed below at the bottom right above my signature.

But some very exciting information at the end of this article says that the CableCard 2.0 standard could be replaced as early as 2008 or earlier, by something called Downloadable Conditional Access System or DCAS for short. And it appears that the cable industry is even more excited about DCAS than they are about the CableCard 2.0 standard.

And based upon the information I gleamed from this article about the CableCard 2.0 standard; a lot of the delay of the Series 3 TiVo could be blamed on the delayed development of the CableCard 2.0 standard.

Anyway, if you want, read the article and let me know what you think about it. There appears to be a lot of false information floating around about the cable industry, and even some of the local cable industry people appear to be highly confused about their direction.

Link: *CableCARD: a primer*


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

I had heard rumblings about DCAS, but this is the first time I've seen a delivery timetable (and 2007 seems awfully aggressive). Hopefully, TiVo is tracking the DCAS developments and will be able to make the Series 3 DCAS compatible with a software upgrade.

I don't see TiVo waiting for DCAS before deploying the Series 3 - I don't think they can afford to wait until late 2007 for deployment. I expect that the Series 3 TiVo will be one of the first CC2.0 compatible devices on the market, with a later software upgrade to DCAS support. If I were TiVo, that's sure what I would strive for.

Thanks for the link!!


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Dan Collins said:


> I had heard rumblings about DCAS, but this is the first time I've seen a delivery timetable (and 2007 seems awfully aggressive). Hopefully, TiVo is tracking the DCAS developments and will be able to make the Series 3 DCAS compatible with a software upgrade.
> 
> I don't see TiVo waiting for DCAS before deploying the Series 3 - I don't think they can afford to wait until late 2007 for deployment. I expect that the Series 3 TiVo will be one of the first CC2.0 compatible devices on the market, with a later software upgrade to DCAS support. If I were TiVo, that's sure what I would strive for.
> 
> Thanks for the link!!


You are right, the Series 3 TiVo will be using CableCard 2.0 and if you read all 5 pages of the article, the writer actually believes that DCAS will not happen until 2008 or after, and that the FCC, because of DCAS, will extend the July 1, 2007 "integrated" STB deadline.

The article makes for interesting reading and helps to replace all of the false information that is floating around about CableCards and the cable industry.


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