# Tivo Series 3 Gone Bad - Recommend to Stay Away



## davevt98 (Dec 9, 2004)

My $800 tivo S3 with lifetime is stuck in an endless reboot. I called and can only send me a refurbished box. 

I have had this for less than 2 months and am extremely DISAPPOINTED with Tivo. My advice for anyone considering the S3 is to save your money.


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## hunts (Oct 5, 2006)

There appears to be fixes for this. Look around in the 8.0.1C thread on how to fix the reboot problem...


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## davevt98 (Dec 9, 2004)

hunts said:


> There appears to be fixes for this. Look around in the 8.0.1C thread on how to fix the reboot problem...


I looked but there is no definitive answer. Can someone please post the fix here? I dont want to return the unit.


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## BruceShultes (Oct 2, 2006)

davevt98 said:


> My $800 tivo S3 with lifetime is stuck in an endless reboot. I called and can only send me a refurbished box.
> 
> I have had this for less than 2 months and am extremely DISAPPOINTED with Tivo. My advice for anyone considering the S3 is to save your money.


It may not work for you, but these steps fixed it on mine.

1. Pull the power cord 
2. Remove the cable cards 
3. Plug the power card back in 
4. Let the S3 boot 
5. Redo guided setup selecting antenna only 
6. Check that everything is stable 
7. Re-insert the cable cards and make sure they are still authorized 
8. Redo guided setup selecting antenna and cable


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Sigh...I understand you being upset but you have to understand this is a problem that is affecting very few people. And you haven't responded as to whether or not the fix offered to you work.

Posting threads with this type of title is misleading. The majority of us love our S3's and your "recommendation" shouldn't have been brought into the title of the thread.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

davevt98 said:


> My $800 tivo S3 with lifetime is stuck in an endless reboot. I called and can only send me a refurbished box.
> 
> I have had this for less than 2 months and am extremely DISAPPOINTED with Tivo.


TiVo is doing exactly what the warranty promises. Why are you so extremely disappointed? The refurbished unit might have less hours on it than the one you're returning and could also have had more testing.

.../Ed


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

davevt98 said:


> My $800 tivo S3 with lifetime is stuck in an endless reboot. I called and can only send me a refurbished box.
> 
> I have had this for less than 2 months and am extremely DISAPPOINTED with Tivo. My advice for anyone considering the S3 is to save your money.


So you bought a TiVo, it is failing, they offered to replace it. What's the problem? Things break sometimes, that's why they have warranties.

Just because yours failed, nobody should by one??


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## Jerry Keller (Jan 27, 2001)

He could be a troll.


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

Jerry Keller said:


> He could be a troll.


That's just rude. If you were the one with a "bad" 2 month old S3 and you were offered a refurbished unit you wouldn't be happy either. So far, I only see one potential troll in this thead.


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## hackysak (Mar 21, 2004)

I don't understand why Tivo doesn't use the above solution when this problem arises. It's better than a refurbished unit AND it has no cost to Tivo. 

I have gone through this problem in the past (with a brand new unit) and have had that Tivo swapped out for a new one. However, had I've been offered the above advice I certainly would have tried it.

What's scary about this is that the problem has reared it's ugly head on S3's (that I assume never exhibited the problem previously) after the recent upgrade to 8.0.1c.

I certainly hope Tivo is working hard to figure out the problem and a solution that can be offered.


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## davevt98 (Dec 9, 2004)

ADG said:


> That's just rude. If you were the one with a "bad" 2 month old S3 and you were offered a refurbished unit you wouldn't be happy either. So far, I only see one potential troll in this thead.


Thank you. I paid $800 for a Tivo and expect it to work. If it doesnt, they should replace it. Normally, I dont care about refurbished but I keep ALL my electronics in pristine shape and this unit has absolutely no scratches, dents, etc. It is NEW.

Who knows what I will get with a refurbished unit? Even if it has a tiny little nothing scratch, I am still going to be upset since it should be perfect.


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## tgibbs (Sep 22, 2002)

_That's just rude. If you were the one with a "bad" 2 month old S3 and you were offered a refurbished unit you wouldn't be happy either._

I have no problem with this. A lot of manufacturers do it, and it certainly fulfills the terms of the warranty. All I care is that TiVo fixes the problem. After all, if they fixed my unit and sent it back, it would then be a refurbished unit, but it would take a lot longer. Of course, I expect the refurbished unit to be in at least as good condition as the one I sent in (although I've never gotten a refurbished product that I could distinguish from brand new).


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

There was another thread here about the same issue (refurb vs new). Original poster on this thread managed to get a new unit after some back and forward with TiVo. Of course he got all kind of "TiVo doesn't have to do it" from TiVo fanboys club here, so ignore the posters who tell you to "be happy with a refurb". Search for this thread (I think that it was something about "class action" in a title) and PM to OP who got the new unit. He might be able to give you some pointers on how to make TiVo to send you the new unit instead of refurb.


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## Icarus (Jun 15, 2002)

davevt98 said:


> Thank you. I paid $800 for a Tivo and expect it to work. If it doesnt, they should replace it. Normally, I dont care about refurbished but I keep ALL my electronics in pristine shape and this unit has absolutely no scratches, dents, etc. It is NEW.
> 
> Who knows what I will get with a refurbished unit? Even if it has a tiny little nothing scratch, I am still going to be upset since it should be perfect.


Did you try the workaround?

There's probably nothing wrong with your S3. The software is not mature yet, and doesn't properly handle all possible cases out there yet. The latest update fixed some problems, but not all problems.

-David


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

davevt98 said:


> Thank you. I paid $800 for a Tivo and expect it to work. If it doesnt, they should replace it. Normally, I dont care about refurbished but I keep ALL my electronics in pristine shape and this unit has absolutely no scratches, dents, etc. It is NEW.
> 
> Who knows what I will get with a refurbished unit? Even if it has a tiny little nothing scratch, I am still going to be upset since it should be perfect.


But that's what the warranty says, and if you get a scratch, so be it but you probably won't. My problem with you is the way you express yourself on your title. Just because you had a bad experience does not give you the right to start a thread saying "I recommend don't buy." If you would have said that in your message, then fine. The fact remains that the large majority of us are very happy with our S3.

I also don't think it was right for that one member to call you a troll, but you did use bad judgement.


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## Rolento76 (Nov 18, 2006)

I fixed my reboot problem by doing a clear and delete restart. I found this solution by searching around here at TiVoCommunity. It may work for you.


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

The thread title was inflammatory and stupid, and saying "Can someone post the fix here" is really lazy. How about posting a thread that says, "I'm having a problem, please help me", and then be willing to do the research yourself to find the answer with help from others.

And this whole new/refurbished issue is a dead horse. Read the TiVo policy before you buy. If that's not acceptable to you, then don't buy one. Lots of companies have this policy.

*TiVo Series 3 Working Flawlessly - Recommend Buy One*


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## JM1 (Jul 22, 2006)

hookbill said:


> My problem with you is the way you express yourself on your title. Just because you had a bad experience does not give you the right to start a thread saying "I recommend don't buy."


Sure it does. Just like I could start a thread stating that mine is working wonderfully and everyone should get one.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

hookbill said:


> But that's what the warranty says, and if you get a scratch, so be it but you probably won't. My problem with you is the way you express yourself on your title. Just because you had a bad experience does not give you the right to start a thread saying "I recommend don't buy." If you would have said that in your message, then fine. The fact remains that the large majority of us are very happy with our S3.
> 
> I also don't think it was right for that one member to call you a troll, but you did use bad judgement.


Huh? the fact that it is his recommendation and his alone gives him the right to make it. I hope readers here aren't so naive to think that every thread title is representative of the majority of experiences. This is his recommendation. He has no obligation to cover the other side of the story when presenting his opinion. Surely you don't follow up your reccomendation of the unit by saying "but others have had horrible experiences", do you? No bad judgement at all from him. Definite bad judgement from the fanboy who jumped on him as a troll simply because he isn't 100% satisfied.


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## HD_Dude (Sep 11, 2006)

Billy66 said:


> Huh? the fact that it is his recommendation and his alone gives him the right to make it. I hope readers here aren't so naive to think that every thread title is representative of the majority of experiences. This is his recommendation. He has no obligation to cover the other side of the story when presenting his opinion. Surely you don't follow up your reccomendation of the unit by saying "but others have had horrible experiences", do you? No bad judgement at all from him. Definite bad judgement from the fanboy who jumped on him as a troll simply because he isn't 100% satisfied.


Yes, I agree.

If he had a bad experience, let's hear about it. If he recommends staying away, let's hear that too.

And then, let's hear from those who agree with him, and those who don't. Nothing wrong with either point of view. But no need to call him names.

Everyone's opinion here has value.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

davevt98 said:


> Thank you. I paid $800 for a Tivo and expect it to work. *If it doesnt, they should replace it. *Normally, I dont care about refurbished but I keep ALL my electronics in pristine shape and this unit has absolutely no scratches, dents, etc. It is NEW.
> 
> Who knows what I will get with a refurbished unit? Even if it has a tiny little nothing scratch, I am still going to be upset since it should be perfect.


No, if it doesn't work, they should *fix it or replace it*. They could have offered to have you send your unit back to the factory, have them test it, and if possible repair it and send it back to you. I imagine that would take about three weeks at best. Of course, you would be without a TiVo for those three weeks, and you would still be getting a refurbished unit back (your own).

Or, they could just go ahead and send you a unit that they've already refurbished and not have you return your old unit until you are satisfied with the new one.

I know which option I would prefer.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> I hope readers here aren't so naive to think that every thread title is representative of the majority of experiences. This is his recommendation. He has no obligation to cover the other side of the story when presenting his opinion.


I think that readers are that naive. If someone isn't that familiar with what is really going on with the S3 the majority of what they see in this thread are complaints. Not everybody goes through the trouble of reading the whole thread.

Think of it as the newspaper. How many people sit and read the whole paper? Most glance at the headlines and move on unless the story is of special interest to them. Someone who comes in here thinking, "oh yeah, the S3. What's up with that?" and sees the inflamatory titles, many of which actually get resolved, end up thinking, "wow, what a pos."

I just don't like the title of his post. Anything else he says after that is fine but I still haven't heard if he has tried any of the solutions that have been offered to him.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

samo said:


> There was another thread here about the same issue (refurb vs new). Original poster on this thread managed to get a new unit after some back and forward with TiVo. Of course he got all kind of "TiVo doesn't have to do it" from TiVo fanboys club here, so ignore the posters who tell you to "be happy with a refurb". Search for this thread (I think that it was something about "class action" in a title) and PM to OP who got the new unit. He might be able to give you some pointers on how to make TiVo to send you the new unit instead of refurb.


And after causing all the trouble to demand the new box instead of the refurb offered, the OP in that thread has decided to send back the new one, because the old one started working again. Now that unopened box has to be sent out to someone else as a "refurb". 

Take any advice to "act like that guy" with a grain of salt.

While I agree that the thread title is a little over the top and the OP certainly handled the situation better, he does have a right to post whatever he wants. Just like we have the right to disagree with him.

So, how about it Dave? Did you try to get your unit working, or are you just interested in coming here and b#%ching?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

hookbill said:


> Just because you had a bad experience does not give you the right to start a thread saying "I recommend don't buy."


Oh my gosh. You cannot be serious. Just because you don't like reading negative messages about the Series 3 "does not give you the right to" tell other members that their experience doesn't warrant the right to express their feelings in the forum. Let the poster say what he wants. You can reply with, "I don't have that problem, and I recommend people buy the Series 3 because...." He has his say. You have your say.

Please, folks: Get over the fact that reasonable people are going to disagree.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> And after causing all the trouble to demand the new box instead of the refurb offered, the OP in that thread has decided to send back the new one, because the old one started working again. Now that unopened box has to be sent out to someone else as a "refurb".


That was one of the most disturbing aspects of the problems I encountered with the Series 3: They were transitory. They'd present themselves, and then go away, and then come back. I know from personal experience that a problem that consistently presents itself is MUCH easier to diagnose and therefore fix than a problem that comes and goes.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

bicker said:


> Oh my gosh. You cannot be serious. Just because you don't like reading negative messages about the Series 3 "does not give you the right to" tell other members that their experience doesn't warrant the right to express their feelings in the forum. Let the poster say what he wants. You can reply with, "I don't have that problem, and I recommend people buy the Series 3 because...." He has his say. You have your say.
> 
> Please, folks: Get over the fact that reasonable people are going to disagree.


That is not what I said at all and you know it. What I said was he shouldn't have put it on his title. He can say in his post that "unless this gets resolved, I wouldn't recommend the S3. But he didn't even ask for help. Then when help was offered he hasn't said whether or not he used it.

Look Bicker, I think your ok but I know how you like to argue. Don't take me out of context, I've already said several times I have a problem with his title. That's it.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

As long as TiVo is willing to fix the problem, there should be no cause to have a meltdown. What's the difference whether they fix your particular unit or send one that has been fixed. I don't understand why people expect to get a new unit in return for a used one. If it was bad out of the box, that would be different. I think it's better to buy from a retailer since they usually will do a new for new exchange within a short period of time after purchase.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

hookbill,

Do you take the same issue with those that would express satisfaction in their thread title? What I'm reading from you is that it's unfair unless the feeling is universal. What I think you mean though is that it's unfair this time because you disagree.

Seriously, no expression of satisfaction or dissatisfaction in a thread title?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

hookbill said:


> What I said was he shouldn't have put it on his title.


You actually condemned him for doing so, actually saying that (and I quote) he "didn't have the right" to put his feelings in the title of his thread. Outrageous!



hookbill said:


> He can say in his post that "unless this gets resolved, I wouldn't recommend the S3.


Again: Oh my gosh. Hey -- It isn't like he said, "The Series 3 *is *crap." That's an objective statement that is surely not supported by one person's experience. If he said that, I'd climb right on-board with you in saying that he shouldn't be saying things like that. However, he didn't make an objective generalization. He said *his *TiVo went bad and that *he *recommends people stay away. He said that *he* was disappointed. All utterly valid and unassailable statements, as such.



hookbill said:


> Look Bicker, I think your ok but I know how you like to argue. Don't take me out of context, I've already said several times I have a problem with his title. That's it.


I think way too many people here in this forum are behaving far too proprietary with regard to the Series 3, going overboard "protecting the model". I think some people need to come to grips with the fact that there are major problems that people are having, and just wishing them away isn't going to make them go away. Attacking posters for condemning the Series 3 generally is absolutely appropriate. Attacking posters for condemning the experience they personally had with the Series 3 is not appropriate.


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## magnani (Dec 5, 2006)

bicker said:


> Oh my gosh. You cannot be serious. Just because you don't like reading negative messages about the Series 3 "does not give you the right to" tell other members that their experience doesn't warrant the right to express their feelings in the forum. Let the poster say what he wants. You can reply with, "I don't have that problem, and I recommend people buy the Series 3 because...." He has his say. You have your say.
> 
> Please, folks: Get over the fact that reasonable people are going to disagree.


Thank you for stating this. It's about time that "this person" needs to get a life move on!


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## davidmoore (Nov 30, 2006)

If some one asked me about the series 3 Tivo, I would recommend they NOT buy now, based on my experience.

I bought a S3, installed it and then got the cable company to put in the cablecards. After about two days, it began randomly rebooting for a couple of days, and then began the endless reboot cycle. I read everything I could on TC and Tivo proper and called tech support. They had me try a thing or two (that I had already tried based on my reading here) and told it was defective and to send it back. I opted for the exchange (buy a new one, refund on the old one) not because of issues with a refurbished unit, but because I wanted my frickin' Tivo working ASAP.

The new one came, and the cable guy came back and re-installed the cards. As you all know, a cable appointment shoots an entire afternoon to crap, because of their "be there sometime between noon and five" business. This obviously isn't Tivo's fault but it increase the "aggravation factor"of replacing a defective unit.

My replacement seemed fine for a week, except for pixelation and audio drop outs, mostly on NBC. Then the "C" software came out, and every time I tuned to HD NBC, my Tivo would freeze and have to be rebooted. I finally went through my season passes and replaced all the HD NBC shows with regular old NBC, but not before it ruined the hour long "Office" "Scrubs" "30 Rock" Trifecta last week, which was pretty disappointing.

This morning I realized that I didn't change my SNL Season Pass and awoke to a frozen Tivo again.

You might say that trouble like this is part of early adopting. I realize now that is what I did, BUT that wasn't how I approached this. I approached this as a refinement of the Tivo, much like the S2 was a big improvement from the S1. I've had Tivos since the beginning and have actually given a bunch as gifts, because it was such a great product that worked intuitively and reliably.

I am tired of my wife asking why her programs didn't record, and having to restart the Tivo frequently. I kept my old Tivo at the top of my AV closet, because I never needed to access it. Last week I bought a cord with a switch at the end of it to restart my S3 Tivo without having to climb up on a chair to reach up behind it.

I could never get this product for my mom or sisters. I know it's not Tivo's fault that scheduling with the cable company is a nuisance and the unit needs to be placed where it's convenient to unplug when it freezes but it makes owning one a lot more aggravating. Three months ago, I was one of the biggest Tivo fans on the planet, but after these two S3's and the frustration they introduced into my life, I certainly can't recommend this product based on my experience.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

magnani said:


> Thank you for stating this. It's about time that "this person" needs to get a life move on!


You know you are really something else. Not even in the forum for a month 3 post and you think you know me. What I know about you is that you haven't said anything worthwhile in any of your 3 post. You have no idea how to introduce yourself into a forum. You'll be please to know however that I will make you the second person on my ignore list. I wouldn't do that to bicker no matter what he says to me because imho he has earned his respect around here. You however have earned nothing.


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

For what it's worth, I also don't care for the title of the thread - but that's just my opinion. What I _really_ didn't care for - and what I feel is completely inappropriate - was someone calling him a name.


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## A2Tivo (Sep 11, 2004)

bicker said:


> Hey -- It isn't like he said, "The Series 3 *is *crap." That's an objective statement that is surely not supported by one person's experience. If he said that, I'd climb right on-board with you in saying that he shouldn't be saying things like that. However, he didn't make an objective generalization. He said *his *TiVo went bad and that *he *recommends people stay away. He said that *he* was disappointed. All utterly valid and unassailable statements, as such.


Urging someone to not buy something because of a single problem is a statement presented as fact that can be shown to be false (because the problem is most likely easily fixable.) Therefore it is libelous. And no, you do not have a right to libel. If this poster printed this statement on the front page of the New York Times, Tivo could sue and would win. Just because it's made in a forum doesn't make it any more "right."

However, the poster does have the freedom to say, "I'm having problems and therefore I don't like the unit." And saying that something is crap is just another way of saying "I don't like it," i.e. it is an opinion that is not easily proven to be false. So in fact, saying it's crap is better than saying "Don't buy it."


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## tgibbs (Sep 22, 2002)

hookbill said:


> I think that readers are that naive. If someone isn't that familiar with what is really going on with the S3 the majority of what they see in this thread are complaints. Not everybody goes through the trouble of reading the whole thread.
> 
> Think of it as the newspaper. How many people sit and read the whole paper? Most glance at the headlines and move on unless the story is of special interest to them. Someone who comes in here thinking, "oh yeah, the S3. What's up with that?" and sees the inflamatory titles, many of which actually get resolved, end up thinking, "wow, what a pos."
> 
> I just don't like the title of his post. Anything else he says after that is fine but I still haven't heard if he has tried any of the solutions that have been offered to him.


Anybody with the sophistication to read a forum to research a potential purchase is going to realize that there are always going to be some people grousing about trivial complaints such as this, and dismiss it.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> Why are you so extremely disappointed?


He paid 800 friggin bucks. I'd be frigging livid if they told me "im giving you a refurbished".

With that said, anyone who buys one of these right now either has the money to burn or is a tivo finatic. Any avg joe who reads these forums would know to stay away from that POS. It has nothing but problems. Anyone purchasing these, do yourself a favor and get it from costco. At least you can return it everytime it breaks.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

davidmoore said:


> If some one asked me about the series 3 Tivo, I would recommend they NOT buy now, based on my experience.


You really would weigh your own personal experience so more more heavily than the "average" user experience? That wouldn't be a very good recommendation.

Yes, you certainly should tell a friend about your experiences, both positive and negative, but in terms of recommendations, you can't ignore the fact that (AFAIK) the great majority of S3 owners are happy and very satisfied with their product.

Should your friend be dissuaded from buying an S3 just because the person he happened to ask was one of the minority of owners with issues?


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## tgibbs (Sep 22, 2002)

davecramer74 said:


> With that said, anyone who buys one of these right now either has the money to burn or is a tivo finatic. Any avg joe who reads these forums would know to stay away from that POS. It has nothing but problems. Anyone purchasing these, do yourself a favor and get it from costco. At least you can return it everytime it breaks.


Actually, it seems like the problems have been remarkably minor for a complex new product, about on the level with what I hear for any new computer-based product (which, after all, is what the S3 is). And the bottom line of this thread seems that TiVo is doing a good job of promptly replacing units that develop problems.

Personally, I'm more confident receiving a refurb from a manufacturer than swapping a product out from a retailer. I've never received a refurb from any manufacturer that I could distinguish from new, but I've occasionally gotten retailer exchanges (and even products sold as "new") that showed signs of being previously used.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

davecramer74 said:


> He paid 800 friggin bucks. I'd be frigging livid if they told me "im giving you a refurbished".
> 
> With that said, anyone who buys one of these right now either has the money to burn or is a tivo finatic. Any avg joe who reads these forums would know to stay away from that POS. It has nothing but problems. Anyone purchasing these, do yourself a favor and get it from costco. At least you can return it everytime it breaks.


POS? You absolutely do not know what you are talking about. And there in lies the problem with the posters thread. The vast majority of us do not have these problems. That is why I objected so strongly to his title. The majority of us have S3's that work fine and we arn't just throwing our money away on it.

If you read most of the complaints on these threads they are either resolved or in the process of being resolved. And again, the majority of us have no complaints.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

hookbill said:


> If you read most of the complaints on these threads they are either resolved or in the process of being resolved. And again, the majority of us have no complaints.


That depends. I happen to be a huge fan of my S3. However, $800 is not an insignificant amount of money to spend on a novelty piece of electronics. If there is a problem with it I can appreciate people feeling frustrated. And people rightly expect these issues to be fixed immediately - not in the process. Wether that is fair or reasonable is irrelevant. They took your $800 instantly so people want a fix instantly.

Alternatively, threads like this would drop off the main page if people who think they are misbeggotten would just stop posting to them.

His issue is a legitimate one. He frustration is real. That you have a problem with his selection of language in explaining it is sad.

The energy that some people expend defending/championing TiVo is almost as frustrating to some of us as the energy the defenders/champions spend in trying to shout down people who are having problems with the product.

CTL


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> POS? You absolutely do not know what you are talking about. And there in lies the problem with the posters thread. The vast majority of us do not have these problems. That is why I objected so strongly to his title. The majority of us have S3's that work fine and we arn't just throwing our money away on it.
> 
> If you read most of the complaints on these threads they are either resolved or in the process of being resolved. And again, the majority of us have no complaints.


Sorry dude, i wouldnt pay 800 bucks for that thing. I wouldnt recommend it to anyone either. ive got 2 buddies who tried switching to them and had nothing but issues. they both returned them. So ya guy, i do know what im talking about. Whether its with the cable company or the unit, is really irrelevent. whats relevant is they had nothing but hassles trying to get it up and running properly. So my opinion, it sucks. Dont like my opinion, i dont care. Still doesnt change the fact i wont recommend the thing right now. I feel for the original poster. he was all excited about getting this new toy. And the new toy isnt performing for him. Id be pissed off too if they wouldnt give me a brand new one. None of you guys have any right to jump all over his case. He's frustrated, as my buddies were. His issue is, he's stuck with the thing. Lucky for my friends, they took my advice and bought it at costco. You can return those things for years after purchase.


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## davidmoore (Nov 30, 2006)

Amnesia said:


> You really would weigh your own personal experience so more more heavily than the "average" user experience? That wouldn't be a very good recommendation.
> 
> Yes, you certainly should tell a friend about your experiences, both positive and negative, but in terms of recommendations, you can't ignore the fact that (AFAIK) the great majority of S3 owners are happy and very satisfied with their product.
> 
> Should your friend be dissuaded from buying an S3 just because the person he happened to ask was one of the minority of owners with issues?


Would you recommend a restaurant that only gave the minority of people who ate there food poisoning? Especially if you'd gotten sick there yourself?

I can't in good conscience recommend that a friend buy equipment that I know has multiple unresolved issues. I have become extremely frustrated with the bugs in the two S3 tivos I've had. I wouldn't want a friend to deal with that, and I would feel responsible if I recommended a product that exhibited the endless reboots and freezing that my units have. I can't imagine trying to explain to my mom over the telephone that she needs to pull the cablecards and repeat the set-up and "whatever you do, DON'T tune to channel 756 again!," whereas the S2 was a rock solid product.

I would recommend that folks stay away until Tivo does whatever it to needs to do to make the S3 a more reliable device.


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

davecramer74 said:


> He paid 800 friggin bucks. I'd be frigging livid if they told me "im giving you a refurbished".
> 
> With that said, anyone who buys one of these right now either has the money to burn or is a tivo finatic. Any avg joe who reads these forums would know to stay away from that POS. It has nothing but problems. Anyone purchasing these, do yourself a favor and get it from costco. At least you can return it everytime it breaks.


I love Tivo, I wouldn't call myself a Tivo Finatic. I also wouldn't say I have money to burn either. Not poor, but by no means do I have money to burn. I ussually research products I am going to buy that are higher priced items and make sure I know what I am getting. But guess what? I still bought a Tivo...even after reading all the posts. And here are my reasons:

1. I noticed from the polls that not everyone has these issues
2. I noticed many issues were related to the cable company you had and very few issues were posted by Brighthouse people (which is who I have)
3. There is going to be issues with any new hardware, but I noticed that most were software related that would be fixed
4. I have my old Tivos for backups in case something would go wrong with my recordings
5. I wanted to transfer lifetime and I had to do that before the end of the year
6. I got a good deal from Amazon.

I got the unit, and set it up. The install of CC went fine. Since I got it I have had one partial recording (a movie that I setup to tape later since it would be repeated again) and we get audio dropouts sometimes...but hardly at all and only for a second, so you don't miss anything. Am I mad? Nope..I knew this was a chance I was taking. Do regret purchasing? Nope...the benefits of having HD recorded far outweigh any cons. If I had more issues, would I feel the same...yep. Because I knew from this board what I walking into. But I still did it. Because to me being able to record at HD quality is far more worth it than anything else.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

A2Tivo said:


> Urging someone to not buy something because of a single problem is a statement presented as fact that can be shown to be false (because the problem is most likely easily fixable.) Therefore it is libelous. And no, you do not have a right to libel. If this poster printed this statement on the front page of the New York Times, Tivo could sue and would win. Just because it's made in a forum doesn't make it any more "right."
> 
> However, the poster does have the freedom to say, "I'm having problems and therefore I don't like the unit." And saying that something is crap is just another way of saying "I don't like it," i.e. it is an opinion that is not easily proven to be false. So in fact, saying it's crap is better than saying "Don't buy it."


This is rich! I'm still laughing. Libelous! Ha ha ha ha ha ha really, I'm spitting on myself her.

He's urging people not to buy based on his completely factual experience. Libel. ha ha ha ha ha ha.

That is ridiculous. If he took out an ad and printed his thread title and first post here, where is the libel? Where is the lie? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> Nope...the benefits of having HD recorded far outweigh any cons. If I had more issues, would I feel the same...yep. Because I knew from this board what I walking into. But I still did it. Because to me being able to record at HD quality is far more worth it than anything else.


Good post. Why would you recommend this unit over the cable supplied ones? i have 2 3416 HD dvr's. Dual tuners, 160gig drive. up front cost = zero. Also, i can copy my recordings to a pc. The main advantage you have is the amount of space you have. What else made you pay 800 instead of just picking up the cable one for free? Im just curious what you would tell a friend looking to upgrade to an hd dvr and why he should spend 800 instead of zero.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

CTLesq said:


> ...novelty piece of electronics...





davecramer74 said:


> ...he was all excited about getting this new toy. ...





davidmoore said:


> Would you recommend a restaurant that only gave the minority of people who ate there food poisoning? ...


Novelty piece of electronics?!?!?! New toy?!?!?! Food poisoning?!?!?!?

Someone's been into the whiteout.... 

This thread's a knee-slapper


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## davidmoore (Nov 30, 2006)

hookbill said:


> If you read most of the complaints on these threads they are either resolved or in the process of being resolved. And again, the majority of us have no complaints.


Tivo is also "in the process" of supporting "Tivo to Go" for Macintosh... any day now.

"in the process of resolving" is the same as "unresolved."

That being said, I would be ecstatic if Tivo made my S3 work as well as yours does.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Novelty piece of electronics?!?!?! New toy?!?!?! Food poisoning?!?!?!?
> 
> Someone's been into the whiteout....
> 
> This thread's a knee-slapper


TiVo most certainly is a novelty. No one is going to die if I don't have a TiVo. Its fun and I enjoy it. But not for one second is it important.

And it is an exceedingly entertaining thread.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

davidmoore said:


> Would you recommend a restaurant that only gave the minority of people who ate there food poisoning?


Having issues with a electronics product is hardly akin to food poisoning.


davidmoore said:


> Especially if you'd gotten sick there yourself?


*This* is what I have an issue with. Why should your own experiences carry any more weight than any other individual's?

Pretty much every consumer product will have a few customers with some issues. The question you should ask yourself in terms of recommending the product to a friend is: Is your friend likely to be satisfied or dissatisfied? That makes it a statistical question and in terms of statistics, your own personal experiences should be treated as just another data point.

My impression from this forum (and not just from the issues threads) is that most people have had minimal problems with their units. Therefore, no matter what my personal experiences, I would recommend the S3 to anyone who is looking for the feature set that it offers (and doesn't mind the price).


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

davecramer74 said:


> Good post. Why would you recommend this unit over the cable supplied ones? i have 2 3416 HD dvr's. Dual tuners, 160gig drive. up front cost = zero. Also, i can copy my recordings to a pc. The main advantage you have is the amount of space you have. What else made you pay 800 instead of just picking up the cable one for free? Im just curious what you would tell a friend looking to upgrade to an hd dvr and why he should spend 800 instead of zero.


Well from everything I have seen and heard from people, the cable DVRs are not good to use. The functionality of them if not very good (in my opinion). I have also hear the quality of picture is better with S3. I mean the difference between my cable box and the S3 is noticible. I had HD up north and when I moved down here I was disapointed in the picture quality that my cable company provided here in Florida. The PQ is back to what I remember up North if not better now with an S3.

Also, with my lifetime in the long run of paying a monthly fee for the cable providers would cost me more. I like owning my products vs rent. Keep in mind, I did not pay $800.

Oh yeah...THX... the sound is WAY better.


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## tgibbs (Sep 22, 2002)

davidmoore said:


> Would you recommend a restaurant that only gave the minority of people who ate there food poisoning? Especially if you'd gotten sick there yourself?


Of course not! People can end up in the hospital or die from food poisoning. If I knew anybody who'd been killed by the S3, I definitely wouldn't recommend it.

On the other hand, I've had no problems at all with my S3. I'm certainly happier with it than with my older 10-250 or my Series II.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

CTLesq said:


> TiVo most certainly is a novelty...


From the dictionary --
"Novelty --
3.	an article of trade whose value is chiefly decorative, comic, or the like and whose appeal is often transitory: "

Um....I don't agree with you....


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

Amnesia said:


> Pretty much every consumer product will have a few customers with some issues. The question you should ask yourself in terms of recommending the product to a friend is: Is your friend likely to be satisfied or dissatisfied? That makes it a statistical question and in terms of statistics, your own personal experiences should be treated as just another data point.
> 
> My impression from this forum (and not just from the issues threads) is that most people have had minimal problems with their units. Therefore, no matter what my personal experiences, I would recommend the S3 to anyone who is looking for the feature set that it offers (and doesn't mind the price).


I think this is so true for every product out there. I always say the same thing with cars. I have always owned Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep products. I love them and have never had any major issues with them. So I will continue to buy them. Now when I was looking for my Jeep, several people told me how they would never buy a jeep again and I had people tell me they would never buy anything else other than a Jeep. I read about it and the majority of people online were happy with it, but there was a small percentage not happy. I bought it because I wanted an SUV and it was well a dodge/chrysler/jeep product  I love my jeep and want to keep it as long as I can (eventually will need 3rd row)!!! Now if I had listened to about two people who had sworn off Jeeps and warned me not to buy one, I may have not been as happy.

We all have bad experiences here and there, but whenever I talk about a product I try to say why I don't like it and I also try to say the pros of the product. Everyone's life is different and we all can "deal" with things that others can not. The person that does not like a scatch on their unit may be pissed with UPS if they mes up the new product. Me? A scratch I may keep it because it is hidden in my cabinet. Heck, Hubby and I love dent and scratch stuff...within reason.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> *This* is what I have an issue with. Why should your own experiences carry any more weight than any other individual's?
> 
> Pretty much every consumer product will have a few customers with some issues. The question you should ask yourself in terms of recommending the product to a friend is: Is your friend likely to be satisfied or dissatisfied? That makes it a statistical question and in terms of statistics, your own personal experiences should be treated as just another data point.
> 
> My impression from this forum (and not just from the issues threads) is that most people have had minimal problems with their units. Therefore, no matter what my personal experiences, I would recommend the S3 to anyone who is looking for the feature set that it offers (and doesn't mind the price).


Your point is very fair and overall I agree with you. But I don't think the OP's opinion should count less because he fails to present it within the context of the overall opinion of S3 owners.

But I would ask - if you would recommend your S3 based on the overall experience of others - will you specifically exclude your personal experience with it? I find that hard to believe. If I was asking you - I would want your personal opinion - not an esoteric discussion about what others think based on what some percentage of owners on an interent forum said.

And ultimately I think your position requires the OP's opinion to be discounted because he fails to caveat it with people such as myself who have been pleased with their S3. This type of forum and the way in which threads are created is not conducive to that type of discussion - unless you take it upon yourself to do that kind of analysis.

CTL


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> From the dictionary --
> "Novelty --
> 3.	an article of trade whose value is chiefly decorative, comic, or the like and whose appeal is often transitory: "
> 
> Um....I don't agree with you....


To me a novelty is a toy. TiVo is a toy. Nothing bad happens if I don't buy a TiVo. Look it up in the dictionary all you want.

But while you are at it what was definition #1, and #2? And was there a 4 or other?


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

IzzyB68 said:


> I think this is so true for every product out there. I always say the same thing with cars. I have always owned Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep products. I love them and have never had any major issues with them. So I will continue to buy them. Now when I was looking for my Jeep, several people told me how they would never buy a jeep again and I had people tell me they would never buy anything else other than a Jeep. I read about it and the majority of people online were happy with it, but there was a small percentage not happy. I bought it because I wanted an SUV and it was well a dodge/chrysler/jeep product  I love my jeep and want to keep it as long as I can (eventually will need 3rd row)!!! Now if I had listened to about two people who had sworn off Jeeps and warned me not to buy one, I may have not been as happy.
> 
> We all have bad experiences here and there, but whenever I talk about a product I try to say why I don't like it and I also try to say the pros of the product. Everyone's life is different and we all can "deal" with things that others can not. The person that does not like a scatch on their unit may be pissed with UPS if they mes up the new product. Me? A scratch I may keep it because it is hidden in my cabinet. Heck, Hubby and I love dent and scratch stuff...within reason.


I like your auto comparison. And also in your previous post you mention other DVR's. Think the S3 sucks? Well, I don't ofcourse but I know for a fact that the SA 8300 is a POS in so many ways. It's so bad it can't even lick the S3's rubber feet.  Fact: SA 8300 I had one to 4 partial recordins each week. Conflicts can happen and you are not aware of them so nothing gets recorded. Horrible interface and terrible search features. And in my area I could not do First run record only (in some areas you can). PQ on analog channels is pathetic.

Fact: Since I bought my S3 in September I've had one partial recording and I think that may have been my fault. I have one channel I don't get and I don't care if I ever get. It's never frozen up on me, didn't inform me about conflicts, it's pq in both HD and SD is wonderful. I can play my entire music catalog through it. MY WIFE LOVES IT. (That's real important).

It's worth every penny I paid for it.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

CTLesq said:


> To me a novelty is a toy. TiVo is a toy. Nothing bad happens if I don't buy a TiVo. Look it up in the dictionary all you want.
> 
> But while you are at it what was definition #1, and #2? And was there a 4 or other?


One dealt with textiles  ; one was about something the state of newness (which would pertinent); and the other was about experiences (not pertinent).

FWIW, I don't consider ANYTHING that costs $800 a toy.

And, also FWIW, nothing bad happens if I don't buy a particular car or house or gallon of milk, but those aren't novelties.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> One dealt with textiles  ; one was about something the state of newness (which would pertinent); and the other was about experiences (not pertinent).
> 
> FWIW, I don't consider ANYTHING that costs $800 a toy.
> 
> And, also FWIW, nothing bad happens if I don't buy a particular car or house or gallon of milk, but those aren't novelties.


Ah look deeper!

5. of or pertaining to novelties as articles of trade: novelty goods; novelty items.

Well - the issue of cost is relevant and the fact that it costs what it does, which makes it less accessable to the average person makes it that much more of a novelty.

Most people would think you need transportation, food and shelter - TV, HDTV and the ability to record in HDTV I don't think fall into catergory of necessity but that of novelty items.


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

hookbill said:


> I can play my entire music catalog through it.


What do you mean by this one?


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

I vote it's a toy. Nice big fun toy.  Harmony remote is toy as well.  All my electronics are really toys for big boys. I'm ok with that.


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> FWIW, I don't consider ANYTHING that costs $800 a toy.


Really? Me and Hubby always say we love our "toys" and by that we mean all of the techi stuff we get, Tvs, Suround Sound, Tivos, Computers, etc. I guess it is just a matter of opinion what you call toys. Some people consider a sports car their toy


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## davidmoore (Nov 30, 2006)

Amnesia said:


> Having issues with a electronics product is hardly akin to food poisoning.*This* is what I have an issue with. Why should your own experiences carry any more weight than any other individual's?


I admit, the problem with analogies is that someone can always say "your analogy is invalid because X isn't the same as Y...." so I'm not going to chase my tail on the perfect analogy. I am not going recommend a product or service to my friends that has proven as unreliable as the S3 has for me and wasted as much of my time as trying to get this thing to work reliably.

This is out of an obligation to my friends and because I want to maintain a reputation for good advice. Which is better advice. "Buy an S3 now" or "Buy an S3 if and when the bugs are worked out?"



Amnesia said:


> Pretty much every consumer product will have a few customers with some issues. The question you should ask yourself in terms of recommending the product to a friend is: Is your friend likely to be satisfied or dissatisfied? That makes it a statistical question and in terms of statistics, your own personal experiences should be treated as just another data point.


How's this: While a bunch of people are perfectly happy with theirs, a smaller bunch has ongoing problems with pixelation, sound drops out (usually at the punchline) and freezes if it turns to a certain channel that will keep it from recording any shows until you unplug it and plug it back in. In fact personally, I have spent hours scouring the TC forums, waited on Tech Support for quite a while, repacked one S3 and shipped it back, I've tried all sorts of boot up variations, and waited around for 2 afternoons for the cable guy to install and reinstall my cablecards and it still freezes if I tune to HD NBC. I say go for it. I can't do that.


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## Cormode (Feb 27, 2003)

davevt98 said:


> I paid $800 for a Tivo and expect it to work. If it doesnt, they should replace it. Normally, I dont care about refurbished but I keep ALL my electronics in pristine shape and this unit has absolutely no scratches, dents, etc. It is NEW.
> 
> Who knows what I will get with a refurbished unit? Even if it has a tiny little nothing scratch, I am still going to be upset since it should be perfect.


How many times have I read people whining that their replacement should be 'NEW'

If the unit had arrived DOA, I would totally agree. However if you got it out, set it up and watched even 10 minutes of TV, the Tivo box in your possession is NOT new. It is used. You are the owner of a USED item. Tivo is offering to swap a used item for another used item.

Refurbs should be in pristine external shape. If you got a refurb that was scratched I would feel your indignation. The appropriate thing to do is take the refurb and if it is scratched then complain.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> How many times have I read people whining that their replacement should be 'NEW'
> 
> If the unit had arrived DOA, I would totally agree. However if you got it out, set it up and watched even 10 minutes of TV, the Tivo box in your possession is NOT new. It is used. You are the owner of a USED item. Tivo is offering to swap a used item for another used item.
> 
> Refurbs should be in pristine external shape. If you got a refurb that was scratched I would feel your indignation. The appropriate thing to do is take the refurb and if it is scratched then complain.


well, i brought my tv back, they gave me a new one, not a refurbished. If my laptop broke on me, which i bought brand new, id be getting a new one if i returned it. Give me an example of something you buy brand new, it breaks on you, and you dont get a new replacement? I cant think of anything. If i bought a refurbished one, then hey id expect a refurbished as a replacement. But the original poster didnt, he bought it brand new and if it breaks he expects a brand new one to replace it. Not one that was previously broken and fixed.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

davidmoore said:


> Which is better advice. "Buy an S3 now" or "Buy an S3 if and when the bugs are worked out?


If you're going to wait until no single person has any single issue with the product, you're going to be waiting a very long time.



davidmoore said:


> How's this: While a bunch of people are perfectly happy with theirs, a smaller bunch has ongoing problems with pixelation _(...)_


I'd certainly be unhappy if I were your friend and you went on and on about you personal experiences with the product when they are not typical. There's certainly nothing wrong with relaying your personal experiences---just make sure you stress that they are not typical.

It's kind of like those new medicine ads on TV. They will tell you how wonderful the medicine is and then say "a small number of patients have experienced side effects like bleeding, frequent urination and uncontrollable vomiting. In most cases, these side effects were mild or moderate". See, they do mention the possible bad things, but they spend more time emphasizing the experience that the typical customer will experience.

Doesn't that sound like a better advice-giver? Your friend is asking for your best guess as to how *his* experience will be. He probably doesn't really care about your troubles. So give him the information necessary to make his own decision and try not to poison his viewpoint just because you've had issues.


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

hookbill said:


> You know you are really something else. Not even in the forum for a month 3 post and you think you know me. What I know about you is that you haven't said anything worthwhile in any of your 3 post. You have no idea how to introduce yourself into a forum. You'll be please to know however that I will make you the second person on my ignore list. I wouldn't do that to bicker no matter what he says to me because imho he has earned his respect around here. You however have earned nothing.


 Oh goodie... somebody else gets to sit on his ignore list right next to me!

Introducing yourself into a forum? Get real!

This "Community" is one of the most hostile communities I have seen on the net. People here seem to fail to recognize that this is a place to discuss both the positive and the negative experiences we have had with our Tivo's. I love Tivo, I love the hardware, and the service. I am extremely disastisfied with their ability to service and support their customers properly. Yet the fanbois here expect that you come here first for answers. While I agree forums are often a great place to get support. The primary "defacto" support should be coming from the vendor, not a third party.

The folks that seem to act all high and mighty here should calm down. Take a breathe, count to ten, and realize this is not a personal attack against you or Tivo.

Choosing to ignore somebody over one forum posting is absurd and immature. I bet you had a lot of friends on the playground when you were a kid? (Guess I'll never know since I'm on his ignore list, and have the pleasure of being #1) Perhaps now after seeing 30 or say repsonses from Hookbill that I consider to be hostile I should consider adding him to my ignore list.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Wangooroo said:


> The folks that seem to act all high and mighty here should calm down. Take a breathe, count to ten, and realize this is not a personal attack against you or Tivo.


Okay, once you've done that, get back to us and let us know if you feel any better.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

Ah blood in the water and sharks are circling.

This is going to be horrible.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

I pay attention to threads like this because I haven't bought an S3 yet. I want one, but I don't want one if it's going to give me a lot of problems. 

To me, TiVo rates pretty far up there on the "things I really need" list. Maybe not TiVo per se, but some some sort of DVR. My experience with S2 and DirecTiVo has been very positive. I've had pretty much flawless satisfaction with those units.

I don't really understand why the S3 seems to get so many complaints. It's not *that* much different from an S2, is it?. My guess is the incorporation of cable cards. I bet they're at the root of all these problems. The TiVo is just having fits trying to play nice with the Cable company's hostile cards.


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

davecramer74 said:


> Good post. Why would you recommend this unit over the cable supplied ones? i have 2 3416 HD dvr's. Dual tuners, 160gig drive. up front cost = zero. Also, i can copy my recordings to a pc. The main advantage you have is the amount of space you have. What else made you pay 800 instead of just picking up the cable one for free? Im just curious what you would tell a friend looking to upgrade to an hd dvr and why he should spend 800 instead of zero.


 IMHO, which around here evidently is not worth as much as others...

I feel that the Tivo whether S1 2 or 3 has the best interface, and end user experience compared to the "free" DVR's provided by the cable company.

The reality is Tivo is an uneccesary expense. But the Cable co's charge $12.95 around here for a Moto 6412 piece of crap. True it works, True it does the job. But nowhere near as nice from a "usability" perspective as the Tivo experience.

Tivo has a great UI, and the Season pass process is much easier to work with than the 6412 as well as others.

Is it worth $800 to buy the unit, and then pay a monthly fee? I cautiously say yes. But again, I have had several problems with my S3 which are not all resolved yet. I do however feel my overall experience is much better than what I had with my RCN DVR.

I will add here that I feel the monthly recurring costs for Tivo are too high. I prepaid 3 yrs to get a better price, but even then I am not so sure I am really getting as much value as I would expect. Personally. I feel Tivo to lower prices on the monthly recurring service costs to make their price point for in line with or more competitive with the cable companies. Then by doing so, the sting felt when paying out $800 for new hardware is not so harsh.


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## tgibbs (Sep 22, 2002)

"To me a novelty is a toy. TiVo is a toy. Nothing bad happens if I don't buy a TiVo. Look it up in the dictionary all you want."

I think that the word that you are looking for is "luxury." The generally understood meaning of "novelty" is an item that has no real use, and whose appeal is solely derived from the fact that it is uncommon or unusual (i.e. "novel").


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> Okay, once you've done that, get back to us and let us know if you feel any better.


 Where have I responded in a vicious or hostile manner to any person here? Tru I have voice several concerns I have had with the product. But I don't respond to people in a hostle manner as many others here do.


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## davidmoore (Nov 30, 2006)

Amnesia said:


> If you're going to wait until no single person has any single issue with the product, you're going to be waiting a very long time.


I'm talking about 3 known issues.
1) Pixelation and audio drop outs
2) Random and continious rebooting
3) Toxic Channels

Not a random mish-mash of random complaints.



Amnesia said:


> I'd certainly be unhappy if I were your friend and you went on and on about you personal experiences with the product when they are not typical. There's certainly nothing wrong with relaying your personal experiences---just make sure you stress that they are not typical.


On and on? And they are typical for a certain subset of the S3 owners.



Amnesia said:


> It's kind of like those new medicine ads on TV. They will tell you how wonderful the medicine is and then say "a small number of patients have experienced side effects like bleeding, frequent urination and uncontrollable vomiting. In most cases, these side effects were mild or moderate". See, they do mention the possible bad things, but they spend more time emphasizing the experience that the typical customer will experience.


Yes, they do say "They will tell you how wonderful the medicine is and then say "a small number of patients have experienced side effects...." That's because the drug company is trying to sell their drugs. I'm NOT selling Tivo S3s, I'm trying to help my friends make a good decision.



Amnesia said:


> Doesn't that sound like a better advice-giver? Your friend is asking for your best guess as to how *his* experience will be. He probably doesn't really care about your troubles. So give him the information necessary to make his own decision and try not to poison his viewpoint just because you've had issues.


As it happens, when some one asks my opinion, my experience is exactly what they want to know about. For example, if it were the case, I would tell my friends that I had problems with pixelation, audio drops, freezes, rebooting, and toxic channels - but no one else had those problems and once I got my S3 replaced all those troubles went away and I'm happy with mine now - but that's not what happened.

The replacement has been plagued with the same problems (except the constant rebooting - I haven't had that since the first S3) and as evidenced by other posts in the TC I am certainly not alone with these specific issues.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

tgibbs said:


> "To me a novelty is a toy. TiVo is a toy. Nothing bad happens if I don't buy a TiVo. Look it up in the dictionary all you want."
> 
> I think that the word that you are looking for is "luxury." The generally understood meaning of "novelty" is an item that has no real use, and whose appeal is solely derived from the fact that it is uncommon or unusual (i.e. "novel").


Dude, look you guys can look up definitions and split hairs over wording all you want.

A novelty to me is something that is fun but has very little value. If I didn't have TiVo there would be very little impact on my life.

$800 is a lot of money for most- but I don't consider that a price which reflects luxury.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

davidmoore said:


> I'm talking about 3 known issues.
> 1) Pixelation and audio drop outs
> 2) Random and continious rebooting
> 3) Toxic Channels


All or just some of those three happening to a MINORITY of S3 users.


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## davidmoore (Nov 30, 2006)

CraigHB said:


> I pay attention to threads like this because I haven't bought an S3 yet. I want one, but I don't want one if it's going to give me a lot of problems.
> 
> To me, TiVo rates pretty far up there on the "things I really need" list. Maybe not TiVo per se, but some some sort of DVR. My experience with S2 and DirecTiVo has been very positive. I've had pretty much flawless satisfaction with those units.
> 
> I don't really understand why the S3 seems to get so many complaints. It's not *that* much different from an S2, is it?. My guess is the incorporation of cable cards. I bet they're at the root of all these problems. The TiVo is just having fits trying to play nice with the Cable company's hostile cards.


Hi Craig,

My experience has not been a good one. Depending on where you live, you might be able to scour the TC boards for people who've had experiences in your specific area. HD NBC flat kills my Tivo in Oahu. Your market might be fine and if you get a constant rebooting Tivo like my first one, you can always exchange it. But if you have a S2 that is working well for you right now, you might want to "hold pat" through a couple more software revisions.


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## tgibbs (Sep 22, 2002)

CraigHB said:


> I don't really understand why the S3 seems to get so many complaints. It's not *that* much different from an S2, is it?. My guess is the incorporation of cable cards. I bet they're at the root of all these problems. The TiVo is just having fits trying to play nice with the Cable company's hostile cards.


The S2 has been around longer, and people have gotten used to its quirks. But I can remember when there were similar impassioned complaints about the fact that some cable boxes wouldn't accept signals over the serial cable, or became confused between the signals from the TiVo remote and the IR blaster and dropped digits when changing channels, so that you had to build some sort of shield in front of the cable box's IR sensor. Much like the situation with the S3 and cable cards, many of the problems were really with the cable box rather than the TiVo, but that didn't stop people from getting upset with TiVo.

For me, the amazing thing is that I've been able to just hook my S3 up to a roof antenna and get all of the major networks in perfect HD, and aside from the buy-in cost for the S3 and the lifetime service transfer, I'm paying nothing for them. Reception is much better than on my old 10-250. And since I own the box, I was free to have the HD upgraded to 750 GB. I was originally planning to switch from DirecTV to cable and get cable cards, but for the moment, I've decided not to bother. I'll hang onto DirecTV for movie and non-local channels on the 10-250, and use the S3 exclusively for broadcast.


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## davidmoore (Nov 30, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> All or just some happening to a MINORITY of S3 users.


As far as I know, no one is arguing that point. And if you happen to been in the minority of owners whose S3s are affected by those 3 issues, it is very frustrating and time consuming. I guess I could start telling people that "there is a greater than 50% chance that your Tivo S3 won't suck and hey it's only $800 plus a service fee."


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## tgibbs (Sep 22, 2002)

"A novelty to me is something that is fun but has very little value."

You are right that the word "novelty" implies a cheap item. Entertainment, of course, has value, as evinced by the fact that people are willing to pay substantial sums for it.

Of course, like Humpty-Dumpty, you can insist, "When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less." But you'll find that it's a lot easier to communicate with people if you use words according to their generally accepted meanings.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> I'd certainly be unhappy if I were your friend and you went on and on about you personal experiences with the product when they are not typical. There's certainly nothing wrong with relaying your personal experiences---just make sure you stress that they are not typical.


I completely disagree with this. If a friend asked for my opinion and recommendation of a product he knows I own, my response would my opinions. "I've had the following problems .... but I can also do ... that I can't do on the cable DVR." Those are MY personal opinions, and I would never think to bring in aggregate opinions of an entire user base. My recommendation would therefore only be based on MY personal opinion.

As to "typical" - if you know nothing of an online user-community, how would you ever know what is typical and what isn't?


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Wangooroo said:


> Where have I responded in a vicious or hostile manner to any person here? Tru I have voice several concerns I have had with the product. But I don't respond to people in a hostle manner as many others here do.


You may want to reread your posts. You may not have been hostile to a person, but you came here hostile and almost all your posts have been hostile to the community since.


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

davidmoore said:


> As far as I know, no one is arguing that point. And if you happen to been in the minority of owners whose S3s are affected by those 3 issues, it is very frustrating and time consuming. I guess I could start telling people that "there is a greater than 50% chance that your Tivo S3 won't suck and hey it's only $800 plus a service fee."


 Only $800.

I recall a time when $800 was a sh*tload of coin. My first car purchase was $400 (A 1974 SuperBeetle) , and when I found out it needed $800 in repairs... I took the bus for six months while I saved nickels and pennies to pay for the repairs.

$800 is a lot of money to spend on something that you could otherwise get for free from the cable company. Personally... if I knew then what I know now about the S3 I would have waited. My impetus to buy an S3 was driven by two things. 1, I switch away from DirecTV to RCN, and therefore needed a new Tivo. 2, the RCN DVR is crap. I could have worked with that crap dvr for a few months prior to getting the S3. In hindsight I wish I had. But over all I am happy with my S3.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Wangooroo said:


> Oh goodie... somebody else gets to sit on his ignore list right next to me!
> 
> Introducing yourself into a forum? Get real!
> 
> ...


Wangaroo, your not on my ignore list. And there is a way to introduce yourself into a forum without coming in swinging. In this forum those of us who have been around a while understand that. That's not to say we don't argue and get upset, of course we do otherwise it wouldn't be a "forum." It's just how you present yourself.


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

hookbill said:


> Wangaroo, your not on my ignore list. And there is a way to introduce yourself into a forum without coming in swinging. In this forum those of us who have been around a while understand that. That's not to say we don't argue and get upset, of course we do otherwise it wouldn't be a "forum." It's just how you present yourself.


 You should also consider that many people lurk in forums without registering a user name. They read / research quite a bit and choose not to participate. I was an avid reader of many forums here for 3 years prior to registering.

Just becuase somebody's only showing that they have ben a member for 3 months or whatever does not necessarily mean they are a newbie to this forum, or to Tivo.

While I agree that there are better ways to get what you want. (From my own experience as well!) I can say that sometimes people post a subject that may be over the top simply to get people's attention. Many innocent questions often go unnoticed in forums. As a result sometimes people want an immediate response or people to take immediate notice. So they may post a a subject that could simply be intended to bait people in to read the message. The technique certainly works in many cases. Though not always with the repsonse one may have been intending.


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## JM1 (Jul 22, 2006)

hookbill said:


> I think that readers are that naive. If someone isn't that familiar with what is really going on with the S3 the majority of what they see in this thread are complaints.


I can't purchase the S3 because the OP (among others) recommended that I don't. I'm convinced the unit has issues and I've come to this conclusion from information I have gathered at this forum. I seek out threads discussing S3 issues as I'm looking for PROBLEMS with the S3 and others' experiences. I find them here and the net effect of this ON MY DECISION TO PURCHASE S3 is negative.

Unfortunately, for every negative point regarding the S3, it's going to take more than one positive to sell me again (I say "again" as I WAS poised to purchase). For every guy with reboot issues, I hope to see many, many more without so I can be reasonably assured that my unit won't have the same issues (realizing some issues are regional, etc).

According to the following poll, it seems I have a 1 in 4 (or so) chance of having reboot issues:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=331795

That's not so impressive.

The banter on this forum is keeping me leery of the S3. In the meantime, I am finding the Moto 6414 that I "temporarily" put in the spot cleared for my S3 is impressing me just as my first S2 did. This doesn't mean I'll never spend the MONEY for the S3, but then again, I haven't had issues with my 6414... Of course, that's MY experience.

Hopefully the net effect of this forum is positive for TiVo and the S3 and I'm just one of the naive readers. But man, this Moto 6414 is working well (if anyone cares).


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

JM1 said:


> I can't purchase the S3 because the OP (among others) recommended that I don't. I'm convinced the unit has issues and I've come to this conclusion from information I have gathered at this forum. I seek out threads discussing S3 issues as I'm looking for PROBLEMS with the S3 and others' experiences. I find them here and the net effect of this ON MY DECISION TO PURCHASE S3 is negative.
> 
> Unfortunately, for every negative point regarding the S3, it's going to take more than one positive to sell me again (I say "again" as I WAS poised to purchase). For every guy with reboot issues, I hope to see many, many more without so I can be reasonably assured that my unit won't have the same issues (realizing some issues are regional, etc).
> 
> ...


 I would not count the poll here as a worthwhile exercise in determining whether the S3 is worth it or wait. I can say that I have 12 friends & family members all with new S3's all purchases based on my early recommendations. None of them are experiencing any problems. I have not been so lucky. I had some issues with freezing, and reboots, BUT... my issues seemingly are resolved now. I would be less concerned about the S3 device itself, and be more concerned about Tivo's customer service. They leave a lot to be desired. For me The Tivo UI is worth the price. Ease of use compared to a cable co. DVR. bar none... the S3 is better.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

JM1 said:


> ...Unfortunately, for every negative point regarding the S3, it's going to take more than one positive to sell me again...


You (and many others) seem to forget that will NEVER happen. The VAST majority of posters are those with issues, NOT the ones who are satisfied.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

JM1 said:


> I
> According to the following poll, it seems I have a 1 in 4 (or so) chance of having reboot issues:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=331795
> ...


Thank you for bringing up a poll I started. Let's break it down as of right now.

98 people report not having any reboot problems at all. Ever.
5 people report no problem on the last upgrade but may have had a problem in the past. I'm not certain but I'll bet 4 out of those 5 are just one time.
10 people said it did as a result of the update. But no problems previously.
Then we have 11 people saying they have had continuous problems and 8 that say they have problems everytime.

I look at it as 113 with no or minor reboot problem
19 with some serious issues. If I had these issues I'd return my S3.

Now take into account that most people don't post unless something is wrong the indication would be that the results of people having no problem with reboot is much higher.

It's a fact that when people are happy, you never hear from them. When they arn't you hear from them constantly. I've tried unsuccessfully to point this out many times.

So really I give up at this point. It doesn't do any good. People want to read about a train wreck. Never mind that Cnet and just about every other on line review has said how great the S3 is. It's the people complaining that you want to believe.

So be it.


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## JM1 (Jul 22, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> You (and many others) seem to forget that will NEVER happen. The VAST majority of posters are those with issues, NOT the ones who are satisfied.


Yeah, I get it.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

hookbill said:


> ...So really I give up at this point. It doesn't do any good. People want to read about a train wreck. Never mind that Cnet and just about every other on line review has said how great the S3 is. It's the people complaining that you want to believe.
> 
> So be it.


Bill thanks for expressing the feelings of MANY here. I, too, am through with this thread.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

hookbill said:


> So really I give up at this point.


No one believes this. You will be back.


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## tgibbs (Sep 22, 2002)

Remember that the frequency of problem reports and poll results on this site cannot be regarded as anything other than an upper limit to the frequency of problems, because people with problems are more strongly motivated to seek out a site such as this and to post on it.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

tgibbs said:


> Remember that the frequency of problem reports and poll results on this site cannot be regarded as anything other than an upper limit to the frequency of problems, because people with problems are more strongly motivated to seek out a site such as this and to post on it.


Which presumes of course that every person with a S3 is on this forum and chooses to post to it.

Not exactly a guarantee.


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## drowe (Nov 4, 2006)

Is this how you all get your post counts so high?


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Good one drowe! Does always seem to be the usual suspects in threads like this.


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## tgibbs (Sep 22, 2002)

CTLesq said:


> Which presumes of course that every person with a S3 is on this forum and chooses to post to it.
> 
> Not exactly a guarantee.


No, it presumes nothing of the kind. It sounds like you are missing the point rather widely.

Let's go back to basics: For an accurate poll, the probability that a person is selected to be a participant in a poll must be statistically independent of the answer that they will give. To put it simply, the sampling must be random.

If this is not the case, the results of the poll will be biased. This is essentially always the case in polls in which participants are self-selected. However, if it is possible to judge the direction of the bias, then some information can occasionally derived even if the true numbers cannot be determined.

So the question is not whether every person with a S3 is on this board. Rather, the question is:

Is the probability that a S3 owner with problems will be on this board AND choose to participate in the poll greater than, equal to, or less than the probability that a S3 owner without problems will make the same choices?

In general, people with problems are likely to be more strongly motivated to seek out a discussion board and engage in discussions and polls than people without problems. Therefore, while we can never determine from a poll on this site how common problems are among S3 owners, we can reasonably infer that the overall frequency of problems is _no greater_ than the percentage who report problems in a poll.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

tgibbs said:


> No, it presumes nothing of the kind. It sounds like you are missing the point rather widely.
> 
> Let's go back to basics: For an accurate poll, the probability that a person is selected to be a participant in a poll must be statistically independent of the answer that they will give. To put it simply, the sampling must be random.
> 
> ...


[blatant attempt to goose my post #s] ? [/blatant attempt to goose my post #s]


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

tgibbs said:


> No, it presumes nothing of the kind. It sounds like you are missing the point rather widely.
> 
> Let's go back to basics: For an accurate poll, the probability that a person is selected to be a participant in a poll must be statistically independent of the answer that they will give. To put it simply, the sampling must be random.
> 
> ...


No you can't infer that at all. You assume that the online population on this forum is representative of the population of S3 owners as a whole. That is a monstrous leap. For which you have no data to support.

This is the only message board that I am a member of yet I have any number of items like TiVo in my home - interms of cost and being cutting edge technologically. You own an iPod? I do. I don't belong to an iPod forum and occassionally I have problems with my iPod or my iTunes or my Airport. I am sure I am not alone.

There is simply no correlation between the two. While I am an S3 owner I find the SOAK function of the general chat forum of this site to be far more valuable to me than this thread. I read only a few of the threads in this forum so my views, whatever they may be would not be counted because I participate in few threads.

Your position while sounding sympathetic has no known basis in fact. Its an opinion to which you are entitled. But its built on inferences which may or may not be true.


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## dnorth12 (Feb 10, 2005)

> No you can't infer that at all. You assume that the online population on this forum is representative of the population of S3 owners as a whole. That is a monstrous leap. For which you have no data to support.
> 
> This is the only message board that I am a member of yet I have any number of items like TiVo in my home - interms of cost and being cutting edge technologically. You own an iPod? I do. I don't belong to an iPod forum and occassionally I have problems with my iPod or my iTunes or my Airport. I am sure I am not alone.
> 
> ...


+1
what he said


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Wangooroo said:


> Where have I responded in a vicious or hostile manner to any person here? Tru I have voice several concerns I have had with the product. But I don't respond to people in a hostle manner as many others here do.


I quoted these lines of your response to Hookbill:



> The folks that seem to act all high and mighty here should calm down. Take a breathe, count to ten, and realize this is not a personal attack against you or Tivo.


The lines *immediating following those* in your post:



> Choosing to ignore somebody over one forum posting is absurd and immature. I bet you had a lot of friends on the playground when you were a kid?


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## ctakim (May 7, 2006)

Those of us who have had insurmountable problems with the S3 are quick to be labeled "trolls". I think that people here seem awful quick to denounce any negative post, factual or not. However, I maintain that the forum is for all to post their experiences, good or bad. 

No one is claiming that those of us with problems are in the majority. If your S3 works, I'm happy for you.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

A2Tivo said:


> Urging someone to not buy something because of a single problem is a statement presented as fact


No. It is a personal recommendation based on personal experience. It makes no sense to redefine reality to fit your assertions -- let's leave reality be.



A2Tivo said:


> Therefore it is libelous.


Now you're just being silly. Recommending people not buy something because you had a bad experience with it is about as far from libel as you can get.

Keep it real.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Novelty piece of electronics?!?!?! New toy?!?!?! Food poisoning?!?!?!? Someone's been into the whiteout....  This thread's a knee-slapper


I disagree, at least about the food poisoning. It's actually a very good question: Would you not eat at a restaurant because it had some isolated instances of food poisoning? I think the answer, for me, would be, "I wouldn't allow isolated instances to dicate the decision, but would instead weigh the instances against the ramifications and the alternatives available to me. I not only have eaten in restaurants which have had instances of food poisoning, but actually have gone back to a restaurant where I believe I contracted an episode of food poisoning personally, because I knew that the problem was a random-chance incident, and generally can be expected not to recur.

And this analogy is really a fitting one for my own TiVo Series 3 experience: I don't believe that the instances of partial recordings and missing channels is random and isolated enough to warrant me taking the $800 risk. YMMV.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> *This* is what I have an issue with. Why should your own experiences carry any more weight than any other individual's?


Or any less weight? That's really the point. Let him have his say. You can create your own thread to say how much you enjoy your S3.



Amnesia said:


> Pretty much every consumer product will have a few customers with some issues.


Absolutely. Even the TiVo Series 2. So what makes the Series 3 different? Just compare the forums -- right after the intro of the Series 3 versus the right after the intro of the Series 3. You'll note a substantial difference.



Amnesia said:


> My impression from this forum (and not just from the issues threads) is that most people have had minimal problems with their units.


Absolutely, and folks shouldn't be ignoring this. My standard recommendation is to buy it, if you want, but make sure you buy it somewhere with a very liberal 30-day money-back guarantee, and then make sure it is working perfectly by day 15 or 16, and absolutely return it if it is not.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

IzzyB68 said:


> Well from everything I have seen and heard from people, the cable DVRs are not good to use.


Actually, I think the "problem" is that they *are* "good" to use -- "good" not "great" and surely not "excellent". However, for many people, "good" is good enough, especially given the difference in price and risk. For others, it isn't.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

bicker said:


> My standard recommendation is to buy it, if you want, but make sure you buy it somewhere with a very liberal 30-day money-back guarantee, and then make sure it is working perfectly by day 15 or 16, and absolutely return it if it is not.


That recomendation will be ok as long as you don't try to put it in a thread title.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> If you're going to wait until no single person has any single issue with the product, you're going to be waiting a very long time.


True, but I'm planning on waiting until the S3 has about as many problems (of comparable severity) as the S2 did when the S2 was introduced.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Wangooroo said:


> This "Community" is one of the most hostile communities I have seen on the net.


You haven't been around the 'net very much, then. This is perhaps one of the more "hostile" communities *devoted to A/V*, but not in general. The moderators do tend to allow a lot more backbiting and general disrespect between the members than I would prefer they allow, but it isn't anything like some of the worst communities I've seen on the 'net.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

CraigHB said:


> I don't really understand why the S3 seems to get so many complaints. It's not *that* much different from an S2, is it?. My guess is the incorporation of cable cards. I bet they're at the root of all these problems. The TiVo is just having fits trying to play nice with the Cable company's hostile cards.


You've hit the nail on the head.

And I think a lot of the frustration on the part of the most fervant supporters is that TiVo is stuck trying to make things work even though they're in a really bad situation, one within which they have only limited control. Some would say that TiVo might have been better off steering clear of the consumer market with this device.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bicker said:


> You haven't been around the 'net very much, then. This is perhaps one of the more "hostile" communities *devoted to A/V*, but not in general. The moderators do tend to allow a lot more backbiting and general disrespect between the members than I would prefer they allow, but it isn't anything like some of the worst communities I've seen on the 'net.


Wow, but I certainly have a different take on this! I see a lot more respect and tolerance here than I have elsewhere. No, this isn't a utopia, but I think we do a pretty good job of policing ourselves and keeping everyone civil.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

davidmoore said:


> I'm talking about 3 known issues.
> 1) Pixelation and audio drop outs
> 2) Random and continious rebooting
> 3) Toxic Channels


My hot buttons, as I mentioned earlier, are random channel loss and partial recordings. However, I wanted to comment on #1 on your list. I personally don't make this such a high priority, unless the pixelation or audio drop-outs happen more than four or five times per half-hour. While even that is unacceptable, and unquestionably "bad", at that rate, problem #1 isn't in the same class of problem as #2, #3 and my two hot buttons, IMHO. YMMV.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

tgibbs said:


> The S2 has been around longer, and people have gotten used to its quirks. But I can remember when there were similar impassioned complaints about the fact that some cable boxes wouldn't accept signals over the serial cable, or became confused between the signals from the TiVo remote and the IR blaster and dropped digits when changing channels, so that you had to build some sort of shield in front of the cable box's IR sensor.


For both of these issues, there were work-around readily available, that the owner could implement themselves, immediately. If I could put my S3 in a closed cabinet and be sure it won't suffer from random channel loss or partial recordings, then that would be great. That's really my point with regard to the difference between the introduction of the S2 and the introduction of the S3 -- there were no where NEAR as many problems when the S2 was introduced, they were no where NEAR as severe, and they were no where NEAR as long-standing after introduction. Keeping it real, there is no comparison between the introduction of the S2 and the introduction of the S3. The S3 is having far more severe and long-standing problems.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ctakim said:


> Those of us who have had insurmountable problems with the S3 are quick to be labeled "trolls".


Even though some of us have been here since we bought our Series 1. That just shows how craven some of the staunchest supporters are to try to drown out perspectives they'd rather not exist. 



ctakim said:


> No one is claiming that those of us with problems are in the majority. If your S3 works, I'm happy for you.


ITA. :up:


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bicker said:


> If I could put my S3 in a closed cabinet and be sure it won't suffer from random channel loss or partial recordings, then that would be great.


You're probably talking about the missing analog channels on one tuner, which appears to have been fixed in 8.0.1c.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=331495


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

My problem was missing digital channels, including some HD channels. I haven't checked up on that problem recently, so perhaps it too is addressed. One big problem down; several to go, since as I see it now, some good points have been made in this thread about other big problems that still occur with too much frequency.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

bicker said:


> Amnesia said:
> 
> 
> > This is what I have an issue with. Why should your own experiences carry any more weight than any other individual's?
> ...


What are you talking about? Did you even read the thread?

The context was that when he's giving a recommendation to a friend, his own experiences should not be weighed unduly---they should be weighed equally with all other users'.


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## rufusryker (Dec 3, 2006)

Bicker [verb]: argue about petty and trivial matters.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

You registered so you could define bicker's username? Thanks, but I think most of us caught it.

Welcome anyway.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> What are you talking about? Did you even read the thread?
> 
> The context was that when he's giving a recommendation to a friend, his own experiences should not be weighed unduly---they should be weighed equally with all other users'.


I find that hard to believe. I am asked all the time about my opinion and I am not asked to weight it against other anonymous peoples opinions, people expressly ask for mine.

Nor do I believe anyone who's TiVo operates flawlessly would state when giving their opinion - ah, but there are people who do experience channel loss or audio pops.

I think your attempt to require everyone to caveat their opinions only happens in a perfect land such as Sweden.

Its utterly unrealistic.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

ctakim said:


> Those of us who have had insurmountable problems with the S3 are quick to be labeled "trolls". I think that people here seem awful quick to denounce any negative post, factual or not.


If your perspective is that people who post their problems with their box or TiVo Inc. are treated with hostility, you aren't paying attention. This forum is full of threads with people calmly discussing problems and possible solutions and/or others weighing in with similar problems or in similar situations not having the problem.

It's only when someone posts something stupid and asinine and ridiculous like starting a class-action lawsuit (in two separate threads, no less) precisely because TiVo was honoring its warranty, that some people react with distaste and not much sympathy.

If you really think your problems with the S3 are "insurmountable" then get rid of it. Insurmountable is insurmountable. Otherwise, drop the hyperbole and histrionics, and see if you don't get some more help and a little less hostility.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> What are you talking about? Did you even read the thread?


Obviously you haven't or you'd have seen that I've been participating in the thread.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

CTLesq said:


> I think your attempt to require everyone to caveat their opinions only happens in a perfect land such as Sweden. Its utterly unrealistic.


Actually, you missed a nuance. He's requiring everyone *else* to caveat their opinions -- he's not actually complying with his own rules.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Sorry, Chucky, but there is a very high level of intolerance for even reasonable discussions of the negative aspects of the S3. Sad but true.

Regarding "insurmountable" -- I took the word to mean "insurmountable by the end-user". That goes back to the distinction I mentioned earlier about the big problems with the introduction of the S2 versus the big problems with the introduction of the S3.


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

My opinion of the Series3 is that it's awesome. I bought one in October and I love it. I'm going to buy 5 more before 12/31/06. I have lots of family and friends with Lifetimed TiVos and it's time to upgrade some of those TiVos before the Lifetime transfer option expires.


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## davidmoore (Nov 30, 2006)

mtchamp said:


> My opinion of the Series3 is that it's awesome. I bought one in October and I love it. I'm going to buy 5 more before 12/31/06. I have lots of family and friends with Lifetimed TiVos and it's time to upgrade some of those TiVos before the Lifetime transfer option expires.


I don't think it's fair of you to do that just because YOU have had a soundly positive experience.

(I'M KIDDING!)


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

bicker said:


> Sorry, Chucky, but there is a very high level of intolerance for even reasonable discussions of the negative aspects of the S3. Sad but true.


And this is your opinion. Your opinion does not make it so. I agree with Chucky, there are plenty of helpful threads when someone ask for help. If you come in here looking for a fight you'll probably find it.

But you should know that better then anyone.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

ChuckyBox said:


> *If your perspective is that people who post their problems with their box or TiVo Inc. are treated with hostility, you aren't paying attention. This forum is full of threads with people calmly discussing problems and possible solutions and/or others weighing in with similar problems or in similar situations not having the problem. *
> 
> It's only when someone posts something stupid and asinine and ridiculous like starting a class-action lawsuit (in two separate threads, no less) precisely because TiVo was honoring its warranty, that some people react with distaste and not much sympathy.
> 
> If you really think your problems with the S3 are "insurmountable" then get rid of it. Insurmountable is insurmountable. Otherwise, drop the hyperbole and histrionics, and see if you don't get some more help and a little less hostility.


 :up: :up: :up:

I couldn't agree more. Particularly the first part.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

bicker said:


> Actually, you missed a nuance. He's requiring everyone *else* to caveat their opinions -- he's not actually complying with his own rules.


Of course I'm complying with my own rules. Are you just trying to make trouble? Please point out anywhere where I claim that I shouldn't follow the same rules as everyone else. Unless you can come up with an example, I will have to believe that you're just being deliberately antagonistic.

When giving a recommendation, I try to give people my best estimate of what *their* experience will be. I try not to let my own personal experiences prejudice my recommendation.

I suggest that other people do the same. Does that make sense now? Perhaps you have had a hard time understanding, but I have *always* advocated the same rules for everyone.



CTLesq said:


> I find that hard to believe. I am asked all the time about my opinion and I am not asked to weight it against other anonymous peoples opinions, people expressly ask for mine.


If someone asks for your experiences, that's fine. If they are asking for your recommendation, you should do your best to estimate what *their* experience will be. Doesn't that make sense?


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## davidmoore (Nov 30, 2006)

Amnesia said:


> When giving a recommendation, I try to give people my best estimate of what *their* experience will be. I try not to let my own personal experiences prejudice my recommendation.


Now wouldn't it be silly to criticize you because you didn't include the caveat that a "lot of people, when asked their opinion of a product describe their personal experience with it" and that is reasonable too."

Because, honestly, that is how I feel you are responding to people like me, who say, that "I can't, in good conscience, recommend the S3 to friends and family based on my experience with two separate units displaying the same problems."


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> If someone asks for your experiences, that's fine. If they are asking for your recommendation, you should do your best to estimate what *their* experience will be. Doesn't that make sense?


Come on, you reasonably think that 99% of the world's recommendations aren't colored by their experiences?

Again, you are operating as though we live in Sweden in a perfect world.

Caveat all you want. Just don't be suprised if not everyone else does. And to require them to do so, as though you write the rules of the discussion is simply condescending.

Understand, I am not saying you are any less entitled to say your S3 is great. I think mine is. But the idea that somehow people who have had problesm with their machines need to caveat their complaints is a sheer side show.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

CTLesq said:


> Come on, you reasonably think that 99% of the world's recommendations aren't colored by their experiences?
> 
> Again, you are operating as though we live in Sweden in a perfect world.


 When did Sweden become perfect? Don't they have avalanches and blizzards and what not that kill people? 



> Caveat all you want. Just don't be suprised if not everyone else does. And to require them to do so, as though you write the rules of the discussion is simply condescending.


No one else does, unless they're writing a review for publication. Then they are obligated to throw in their own experience with additional caveats. As posters here at TCF we are under no such obligations, and in fact, any reader just has to scroll through the posts to find alternative viewpoints, be they contrary or supportive



> Understand, I am not saying you are any less entitled to say your S3 is great. I think mine is. But the idea that somehow people who have had problesm with their machines need to caveat their complaints is a sheer side show.


And it's not even an amusing side show any longer. If I am asked for my opinion or my recommendation, I always start out with, "In my experience ...". Screw everyone else's opinion - my buddy/friend/co-worker/family just asked me MY opinion. My opinion will of course be colored by MY experience, hence MY recommendation will be as well.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

CTLesq said:


> Understand, I am not saying you are any less entitled to say your S3 is great. I think mine is. But the idea that somehow people who have had problesm with their machines need to caveat their complaints is a sheer side show.


Of course you are entitled to say that your S3 is great or not. Never did I say that a person is not entitled to tell people about their issues or positive experiences.

All I said is that when making a *recommendation*, you should not unduly weigh your own personal experience and instead make the best estimate as to what your friend's experience will be. That seems like plain common sense.


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## ctakim (May 7, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> If your perspective is that people who post their problems with their box or TiVo Inc. are treated with hostility, you aren't paying attention. This forum is full of threads with people calmly discussing problems and possible solutions and/or others weighing in with similar problems or in similar situations not having the problem.
> 
> It's only when someone posts something stupid and asinine and ridiculous like starting a class-action lawsuit (in two separate threads, no less) precisely because TiVo was honoring its warranty, that some people react with distaste and not much sympathy.
> 
> If you really think your problems with the S3 are "insurmountable" then get rid of it. Insurmountable is insurmountable. Otherwise, drop the hyperbole and histrionics, and see if you don't get some more help and a little less hostility.


Thanks, but I do know what insurmountable means. That is why I returned the Series 3 after 28 days of not getting the premium channels to work. The fault clearly was with the cable cards, not the TiVo folks. But it does not really matter whose fault it was if I could not get it to work.

By the way the mere fact that you are accusing me of hyperbole and histrionics only goes to underscore my point. Thanks for highlighting what jerks some folks can be on this forum.


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## Eskimo Pie (May 17, 2002)

What a worthless argumentative thread... please lock it! But before that happens, did the OP ever fix his reboot problem by the suggested method?


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## drowe (Nov 4, 2006)

drew2k said:


> Wow, but I certainly have a different take on this! I see a lot more respect and tolerance here than I have elsewhere. No, this isn't a utopia, but I think we do a pretty good job of policing ourselves and keeping everyone civil.


+1


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

ctakim said:


> By the way the mere fact that you are accusing me of hyperbole and histrionics only goes to underscore my point. Thanks for highlighting what jerks some folks can be on this forum.


You must be unfamiliar with the meaning of the word "otherwise."


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

There's just one thing I don't understand.

Why do so many of the people who visit the TCF to register their dissatisfaction actually stick around and continue to stir the pot after boldly declaring they are going to (throw their TiVo away/file a class action lawsuit/start a campaign to badmouth the product/never purchase a TiVo again/other (fill in the blank))?

Are you gluttons for punishment? Do you like the negative attention? Are you just bored? Does it make you feel better to think that because you've had a problem, you can make someone else not purchase the product? I don't get it.

I mean, really. Let's think about this for a moment. You're talking about a forum community comprised primarily of TiVo supporters, and people who have a perfectly functioning product that they are happy with...but yet you're aghast when you create a post expressing your satisfaction and branding the whole of the product as unworthy junk and the majority of the forum members take you to task for it. Alrighty then.

My suggestion would be, rather than creating posts suggesting that EVERYONE stay away from a product based on your single personal experience, try starting a thread asking for help or suggestions. In turn, you'll find that the feedback is a lot more constructive, and people will generally respond in a much more pleasant manner.

Unless, of course, you're just looking for a confrontation, in which case, you'll probably get one.

For the record, my Series 3 is working wonderfully. I guess I got the "only good one".


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

TiVotion said:


> My suggestion would be, rather than creating posts suggesting that EVERYONE stay away from a product based on your single personal experience, try starting a thread asking for help or suggestions. In turn, you'll find that the feedback is a lot more constructive, and people will generally respond in a much more pleasant manner.


This is the best advice I've seen in this thread, but I've got little faith in anyone actually taking it.

But you didn't get the only working S3, mine works great too!


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Eskimo Pie said:


> What a worthless argumentative thread... please lock it! But before that happens, did the OP ever fix his reboot problem by the suggested method?


I don't know if it's all wothless but your right the OP, who started this mess, got advice, and then let everyone else go to war is probably watching his S3 which is working fine and not even giving a thought of what's happening here. We never heard from that person again.


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## ctakim (May 7, 2006)

TiVotion said:


> There's just one thing I don't understand.
> 
> Why do so many of the people who visit the TCF to register their dissatisfaction actually stick around and continue to stir the pot after boldly declaring they are going to (throw their TiVo away/file a class action lawsuit/start a campaign to badmouth the product/never purchase a TiVo again/other (fill in the blank))?
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I did not see the sign where this forum is only limited to folks blissfully happy with their S3 and that anyone with a differing experience should stay out or only ask very specific questions for advice in a non-judgementel matter.

As a long time S2 TiVo owner I have not given up on the S3, but in my hands and 
with my cable provider, it was not workable in Sept-Oct 2006. I still have hopes that this may change and for this reason I still monitor this forum. But I do find the intolerance of a vocal minority quite amusing now that I'm out of the S3 game for now.

No doubt there are many decent folks and threads here from people who only want to be helpful, no one is disputing that.


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## A2Tivo (Sep 11, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> This is rich! I'm still laughing. Libelous! Ha ha ha ha ha ha really, I'm spitting on myself her (sic).


Yes, well apparently it's time to call your nurse over to wipe the drool off of your face again.



> That is ridiculous. If he took out an ad and printed his thread title and first post here, where is the libel? Where is the lie? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


Urging the public not to buy because of a specific problem is tantamount to delcaring that the majority of people will have this issue. Why else make the statement? That is a lie supported by the fact that a very small number of people have actually had the problem.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

A2Tivo said:


> Urging the public not to buy because of a specific problem is tantamount to delcaring that the majority of people will have this issue. Why else make the statement? That is a lie supported by the fact that a very small number of people have actually had the problem.


Ha ha ha ha ha ha , really, you're killing me....

Are you serious? He made his recommendation, that's it. there is no lie. He gave his experience and then his recommendation (opinion). He based that recommendation on his fact set.

I'll take your word, and it's my belief that the problem is likely isolated, but do you know that for CERTAIN? If you aren't certain, should you be saying that? If it was proven wrong, have you lied?

Asserting libel is just ridiculous, laughable, a real joke. To come back and then defend that ridiculous assertion is cracking me up beyond belief.

Really, I thought the "it's not his post but his thread title that's wrong" argument was the oddest argument I would see. Libel just blows that out of the water. You're funny!

ha ha ha ......


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## Thos19 (Dec 31, 2002)

My problems have been with Adelphia/Comcast. Other than that I've been very pleased thus far, and look forward to the anticipated enhancements with future software updates.

Like HookBill, I was more than happy to bid adeiu to my SA 8300.

As far as I'm concerned, my money was well spent.

Thos.


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## davidmoore (Nov 30, 2006)

TiVotion said:


> There's just one thing I don't understand.
> 
> Why do so many of the people who visit the TCF to register their dissatisfaction actually stick around and continue to stir the pot after boldly declaring they are going to (throw their TiVo away/file a class action lawsuit/start a campaign to badmouth the product/never purchase a TiVo again/other (fill in the blank))?


I can't speak for anyone else, but my S3 experience has been riddled with known and documented bugs and I'm sticking around looking for solutions. I don't care a whit about a class action lawsuits but I have been sorely tempted to throw my S3 away, particularly when it freezes during a show that I wanted to watch and started 10 minutes into it to skip commercials and by the time it reboots a significant part is gone. Yeah, missing TV shows isn't the end of the world, but I bought this device specifically to improve my experience, not to introduce hours of frustration into my life.

Reading this forum, my experience has been shared by other forum posters. My constant rebooting problem was not fixable by the described method (note: I am not the original poster to this thread) and my original unit had to be shipped back to Tivo. Even if it were fixable by the described method, it's a common enough problem with an involved enough work around that I could never recommend the device to people outside of the "early adapters." The constant rebooting is clearly a bug. I appreciate that a work around exists, but that work around is not suitable for my mom and many of my friends. Tivo needs to fix this on their end, and thus far they haven't.



TiVotion said:


> Are you gluttons for punishment? Do you like the negative attention? Are you just bored? Does it make you feel better to think that because you've had a problem, you can make someone else not purchase the product? I don't get it.


Personally, I don't think the statement that "based on my experience with known problems in a certain subset of Tivo units, I can't in good conscience recommend this unit to my family and friends until these bugs are corrected" is particularly inflammatory or unreasonable.

Take the pixelation/ audio drop out problem. I have read these boards looking for a solution and while people are trying certain things, filters, terminators, some boosting their signal while others are attenuating theirs, there is no consensus to fix it. And again, I am not an electronics hobbyist. I want my $800 device (+$200 life time transfer) to work well. If I had built it myself in the garage out of tubes and transistors and mounted in an old cigar box, I could understand the need to tweak it to make it work, but I didn't.

Likewise "toxic channels," You may say, "oh that's not Tivo's problem, that's the TV station." But the station FREEZES my Tivo, halting it's operation until it can unplugged and plugged back in again. Even if the station is not adhering to some standard or another, that's just bad engineering on Tivo's part. When you click on a video file or stream in a computer it doesn't crash if it can't display it, it simply gives you a message that it can't display the content.



TiVotion said:


> I mean, really. Let's think about this for a moment. You're talking about a forum community comprised primarily of TiVo supporters, and people who have a perfectly functioning product that they are happy with...but yet you're aghast when you create a post expressing your satisfaction and branding the whole of the product as unworthy junk and the majority of the forum members take you to task for it. Alrighty then.


Again, I disagree with you. I have been reading this forum since I got my first S1 and come to it for solutions. I had networked Tivos before it was common place and threads here have helped me get the most out of my S2s. I've always seen this forum a group of Tivo owners, not a group "comprised primarily of TiVo supporters, and people who have a perfectly functioning product that they are happy with." What would you talk about? Look at the the other threads here, for goodness sake.

That being said, I've always come here in the past looking for way to make my Tivo work better. This is the first time I've come just trying to make it work at all.



TiVotion said:


> My suggestion would be, rather than creating posts suggesting that EVERYONE stay away from a product based on your single personal experience, try starting a thread asking for help or suggestions. In turn, you'll find that the feedback is a lot more constructive, and people will generally respond in a much more pleasant manner.


It's not necessary for me to create a NEW thread asking for help and suggestions on the problems of 1) contstant or random rebooting 2) the problems of toxic channels or 3) pixilation and audio drop outs because these problems are already documented and well known. With the exception of one kind of rebooting problem, there is no "cure" yet, although discussions are ongoing.



TiVotion said:


> Unless, of course, you're just looking for a confrontation, in which case, you'll probably get one.


The "confrontation" has surprised me somewhat, because not only was I not looking for one, I wasn't expecting one. The concept that despite a frustrating and ongoing problem with two different S3s, I should still recommend that my friends and family purchase them strikes me as unreasonable.



TiVotion said:


> For the record, my Series 3 is working wonderfully. I guess I got the "only good one".


Sigh. I am very happy for you. Again, as far as I know, no one is disputing that many people are very happy with their S3s and that it is very likely that more people are happy with theirs than not. Despite that, a number of us are experiencing similar and reproducible bugs that keep our device from reliably performing. At it's core, Tivo is a convenience item that I use to make my life more pleasant. Personally and based on my experience, I am recommending that folks stay away until lest they have to deal with the wasted time and frustration that I have.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

davidmoore said:


> The concept that despite a frustrating and ongoing problem with two different S3s, I should still recommend that my friends and family purchase them strikes me as unreasonable.


Let's turn it around.

Let's say that you had bought a product and you were extremely happy with it, yet your impression from forums and media coverage, etc was that about 90% of users had serious problems. Would you recommend this product to a friend? I would hope not; your positive experience is not likely to be shared by your friend.

So if you have a personal negative experience but the vast majority of users have positive experiences, then by the same logic you shouldn't hesitate to recommend the product to a friend, despite your own issues.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Hmm. Regarding this whole argument of personal experience versus the collective experience: It seems that those writing reviews for online publication sometimes DO write about only their own personal experiences, without considering alternative user experiences. (I disagree with this tactic, because as I said earlier, when writing for online publication, the reviewer should be impartial. In this case, the reviewer failed.)

TVpredictions.com recently posted an article blasting the DirecTV HR20, and the article is based on nothing but "Swanni's" negative experience with the box. He later posted an article with an alternative viewpoint, but only because he received tons of negative feedback about HIS negative feedback.

Discussion in the DirecTV HD forum about his articles: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=332736


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

drew2k, you ought to be hog tied, tarred and feathered just for bringing this back to the front page. Shame on you!  

And here I had such respect for you.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Swanni's experience is apropos to this thread though.

Swanni, I think has a higher obligation than the OP because he puts himself out there as an expert. I think in those cases, serious and unbiased evaluation needs to be done.

For a regular guy offering a recommendation, usually I'm expecting his/her personal experience.

Through this, I can see the other side of the argument more clearly. I still don't agree with you hookbill, but it seems less ridiculous now.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Thank you Billy - I think you just took me off the hook with hookbill for reviving this thread! Maybe some good came out of this after all...


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)




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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> Swanni's experience is apropos to this thread though.
> 
> Through this, I can see the other side of the argument more clearly. I still don't agree with you hookbill, but it seems less ridiculous now.


Nothing wrong with disagreeing. Laughing your head off at me, well that was a bit much but at least you've come around a bit. With that we can have some peace.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

I think it was A2TiVo that I was laughing at. Not even you're on board with the libel thing are you?

It was just a laugh, no offense intended.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> I think it was A2TiVo that I was laughing at. Not even you're on board with the libel thing are you?


Of course not. Ridiculous.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Now that you've all kissed and made up, someone with a South Park avatar needs to post an "I learned something today..." message.


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