# Free Amazon Video On Demand With Amazon Prime!!!



## amark

Interesting-Competition with Netflix. Sign up with Amazon Prime for $79 that gives you free 2 day shipping and get Video On Demand for Free.
Sweet Deal!!!

http://www.webtvwire.com/amazon-pri...imited-streaming-of-5000-vod-movies-tv-shows/


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## shorties

Yay this is awesome, now I cant wait to get this feature on my tivo in 2014!


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## windracer

shorties said:


> Yay this is awesome, now I cant wait to get this feature on my tivo in 2014!


 Amazon Video On Demand is already available on all of the TiVo platforms, and has been for years.

Free streaming for Prime users is an interesting offering. I poked around but wasn't able to find any free content, so if this is being tested I'm not in the test group.


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## shorties

windracer said:


> Amazon Video On Demand is already available on all of the TiVo platforms, and has been for years.
> 
> Free streaming for Prime users is an interesting offering. I poked around but wasn't able to find any free content, so if this is being tested I'm not in the test group.


Yeah, well we will see if the free streaming applies to the TiVo, my guess will be that it will at the very least require an update from TiVo, and that's being if Amazon's licenses allow it to be streamed to devices at all. (Especially considering the TiVo would need to download it not stream it). But obviously I would be ecstatic to be proven wrong, I am a huge Amazon Prime fan, so adding functionality can only be a good thing.


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## wmcbrine

The TiVo doesn't have to download it; it could work like Netflix (Series 3+ only).


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## shorties

wmcbrine said:


> The TiVo doesn't have to download it; it could work like Netflix (Series 3+ only).


Oh thats totally true. But that still would require an update because none of the Amazon digital purchases work like that currently.


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## shwru980r

It costs $79 per year for a prime membership. It's hardly free. The Netflix streaming only option is $86 per year. Maybe they could just treat these free streaming titles like a free rental for Tivo, and download the movie and delete it after a period of time.


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## ZeoTiVo

read the engadget article - this is not an officially released feature yet.



> Update: We weren't able to pull up the option on any of our Prime-enabled accounts and from the comments it doesn't appear any of you were either. According to our tipster, the option has disappeared from his page as well. One other interesting note came from commenter vfiz, who found that several variations of the primeinstantvideos.com domain name were registered by Amazon-owned DPReview January 5.


or just go to the thread already started on this


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## wmcbrine

shorties said:


> Oh thats totally true. But that still would require an update because none of the Amazon digital purchases work like that currently.


It would require a new HME app, but probably not a TiVo software update. (It's an important distinction, because they can update HME apps a lot more easily, without the tedious roll-out process they use for the software on the box.)


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## fyodor

There doesn't seem to be a high correlation between the potential for a feature to be integrated on Tivos and it actually being integrated. Device-to-device streaming of copy-protected TV is much more of a core function and that doesn't appear to be on the horizon. Vudu has been out for years and we can't get that. 

This isn't a complaint or a rant. The situation is what it is. And I think that it's neat that amazon may be doing this. But I wouldn't really expect it to be made available any time soon on your Tivo.


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## innocentfreak

It would most likely be no different than Netflix streaming so it would probably be pretty easy to add.


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## aadam101

shwru980r said:


> It costs $79 per year for a prime membership. It's hardly free. The Netflix streaming only option is $86 per year. Maybe they could just treat these free streaming titles like a free rental for Tivo, and download the movie and delete it after a period of time.


Anyone with a .edu email address or Mom's can get a free Prime account.


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## dswallow

shwru980r said:


> It costs $79 per year for a prime membership. It's hardly free. The Netflix streaming only option is $86 per year. Maybe they could just treat these free streaming titles like a free rental for Tivo, and download the movie and delete it after a period of time.


It's "free" in the sense that many of us find the 2-day "free" shipping and 1-day discounted shipping from Amazon Prime membership of sufficient value to already warrant the $79 annual expense. This then becomes something of an extra bonus.


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## innocentfreak

I have never paid a penny for Prime. Mine currently ends in July 2011. 

It helps to have family who are moms and use subscribe and save since it extends the free promotion.


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## wmcbrine

fyodor, what you say is true, but I'm optimistic about this one -- only because Amazon has an established relationship with TiVo.


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## chemosh6969

aadam101 said:


> Anyone with a .edu email address or Mom's can get a free Prime account.


Mom can actually be a dad too.


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## vectorcatch

So now that Amazon Prime Instant Video is out (http://www.amazon.com/Video-On-Demand/b/ref=sa_menu_atv1?ie=UTF8&node=16261631) I was about to sign up to try it out, but then I decided to look at the support page first.

TiVo has an * beside it indicating it is not currently supported for the Amazon Prime Instant Streaming Service. Now, assuming streaming is required due to whatever contracts are in place, this makes sense based on the fact the TiVo downloads and does not stream Amazon content.

My question is, whose problem is this to solve (Beyond being mine if I want to use the service). Do we need to rely on TiVo to turn on streaming for Amazon or Amazon to suddenly allow downloads for the prime service?

Also does anyone have any additional info on this from TiVo or Amazon?


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## brettatk

Yeah, this will be of little use to me unless it is integrated with Tivo.

Do you have a link to the support page on Amazon that states it isn't currently supported by the Tivo?


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## dig_duggler

If this doesn't work on your Tivo now, it probably isn't going to (and I would guess if it ever does it's only going to work on the new boxes).


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## vectorcatch

Link with * indicating not currently on TiVo

http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/ontv..._rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1287322642&pf_rd_i=16261631


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## shorties

vectorcatch said:


> So now that Amazon Prime Instant Video is out (http://www.amazon.com/Video-On-Demand/b/ref=sa_menu_atv1?ie=UTF8&node=16261631) I was about to sign up to try it out, but then I decided to look at the support page first.
> 
> TiVo has an * beside it indicating it is not currently supported for the Amazon Prime Instant Streaming Service. Now, assuming streaming is required due to whatever contracts are in place, this makes sense based on the fact the TiVo downloads and does not stream Amazon content.
> 
> My question is, whose problem is this to solve (Beyond being mine if I want to use the service). Do we need to rely on TiVo to turn on streaming for Amazon or Amazon to suddenly allow downloads for the prime service?
> 
> Also does anyone have any additional info on this from TiVo or Amazon?


We still haven't seen Hulu Plus released for the TiVo Premiere, I am not holding my breath for Amazon any time soon.


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## brettatk

vectorcatch said:


> Link with * indicating not currently on TiVo
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/ontv..._rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1287322642&pf_rd_i=16261631


Thanks. I was on there earlier but missed the * under the picture.


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## kb7oeb

If you could use the current app and have the video download at best quality rather than stream I'd subscribe.


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## stevel

I can see it on my Prime account. Lots of movies I'm interested in and can stream to my DirecTV HR21.


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## Xiidaen

I like the idea of Amazon expanding prime benefits (they've been working on giving a kindle to Prime members for a while now) ... but this is for 1) US and 2) paid PRIME members only.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/22/amazon-launches-prime-instant-videos-unlimited-streaming-for-pr/


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## SRAINESS

stevel said:


> I can see it on my Prime account. Lots of movies I'm interested in and can stream to my DirecTV HR21.


? HR21 ?


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## MikeAndrews

One more in the endless, endless parade of TiVo/MPAA near misses AKA "Soon...but...almost...Not YOU!."


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## Brainiac 5

vectorcatch said:


> My question is, whose problem is this to solve (Beyond being mine if I want to use the service). Do we need to rely on TiVo to turn on streaming for Amazon or Amazon to suddenly allow downloads for the prime service?


Either one would do. However, Amazon may (or may not) be contractually obligated to offer the service only by streaming, in which case it could only be solved by TiVo.

Personally, I prefer downloading so if there's no contractual obligation then I'd love for Amazon to simply allow downloads (treat them just like rentals, but free).


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## TerpBE

aadam101 said:


> Anyone with a .edu email address or Mom's can get a free Prime account.


I've read that the streaming will not be available to people who have one of these free Prime accounts - only those who paid for it.


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## reedog117

TerpBE said:


> I've read that the streaming will not be available to people who have one of these free Prime accounts - only those who paid for it.


Actually it shows up fine for me on amazon's website, and I do have one of those free .edu Prime accounts.

It stinks that TiVo doesn't already support it... I guess we'll see when I get home tonight whether it works already on my Sony Blu-ray player.


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## windracer

vectorcatch said:


> Link with * indicating not currently on TiVo


Huh. Why bother even putting the logo there? I can see if the * said "coming soon" or something like that. But "currently not available" is pretty non-committal.


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## mask2343

Confirmed that it DOES NOT work for Amazon Mom Free Prime members. It asks me to upgrade for $79.


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## morac

Basically the shows and movies available for streaming are the same ones that are available for streaming on Netflix. Amazon Prime ends up being cheaper than Netflix's streaming only service; more-so when you add in the "free" 2 day shipping. Netflix streaming looks better though according to Engadget.

From what I can tell, no current shows are available as part of the "free" streaming so Amazon Prime won't replace Hulu Plus.



windracer said:


> Huh. Why bother even putting the logo there? I can see if the * said "coming soon" or something like that. But "currently not available" is pretty non-committal.


Since I don't see TiVo adding Amazon streaming capabilities any time soon (or ever) it's basically a way of telling people it doesn't work on TiVo without saying it will never work on TiVo (in case TiVo decides to update their old apps some day).


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## MichaelK

also of note- seems you aren't allowed the HD versions for free. SD only- no soup for you.


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## Fofer

stevel said:


> I can see it on my Prime account. Lots of movies I'm interested in and can stream to my DirecTV HR21.


You've tested the new free content and it works on an HR21?


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## morac

MichaelK said:


> also of note- seems you aren't allowed the HD versions for free. SD only- no soup for you.


There are some free HD shows, for example the Dr. Who Tennant specials in HD are free.


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## Fofer

MichaelK said:


> also of note- seems you aren't allowed the HD versions for free. SD only- no soup for you.


Not entirely true. What device did you try from?

Because I just connected to Amazon Video On Demand via my Sony Blu-Ray (it's a BDP-S570) and there's a new section for "Prime Instant Videos." I'm browsing them now, and each movie I've selected thus far shows an SD version and an HD version. (Clockwork Orange, Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest, One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest, and a few others.)

I select the HD version, confirm that the rental price is $0.00, it checks my connection, and a few seconds later, it starts to play the video on my 53" TV. Looks great.

Some titles don't have an HD version.

Only one title in my quick test showed a price for the HD version, and that was Dirty Harry.


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## Fofer

It'll be nice when this free content does eventually make it's way to TiVos. I don't like seeing that asterisk there. I am ASSUMING it'll work on all TiVos that already have access to Amazon Video on Demand.

Tie all that content into the Premiere's Universal Search feature... that'll be very nice indeed.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to reach iPads, though.


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## Dan203

I bet that if this does come to TiVo it's going to be limited to S3/HD/Premiere units. The current Amazon method works with S2 units because all SD content is recoded to MPEG-2. However MPEG-2 is really inefficient for streaming which means the streaming stuff will most likely use H.264 or VC-1 like Netflix, which can only be played on S3 or newer units.

Dan

P.S. My wife recently switched our Prime from the $79/year plan to the free student plan, since she still has an .edu email address. Apparently these free prime accounts do not get access to this streaming service because it says I need to upgrade to a "paid" prime account to watch any of the free shows. I already have Netflix, so it's not big loss to me, but it would have been nice to have a second option in case something was available on Amazon that is not available via Netflix.


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## stevel

Grumble. While I CAN watch Amazon Video on my HR21 (via PlayOn), the free-for-Prime is for immediate streaming only, which requires that you initiate the viewing through the playing device. Still I may find it handy at times.


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## derekcbart

Hi there.

I used the Live Chat service on the TiVo Support webpage and the agent wrote this:

"At this time, we have no information when or if it will be available on the TiVo service. When that time does come, we will release an announcement on our website."

So, it does not appear as though there will be an answer any time soon. This bums me out because I am not a Netflix subscriber because I am not a renter, but I am an Amazon Prime member and I was looking forward to using this service to check out some titles before deciding whether or not to purchase them.

-Derek


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## Dan203

TiVo CSRs never have any advanced knowledge of future features. TiVo could be planning on releasing support for this tomorrow and you'd get the same answer you got above from a CSR. My point is that talking to a CSR is never a good way to gauge when/if a specific feature will be supported. You have to wait for a press release or a post from someone higher up like Bob or Stephen.

Dan


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## wmcbrine

I guess I'll check it out on my Roku while I wait for TiVo to get their act together...


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## Ian

I was wondering about getting a Roku myself. I've just started a netflix VOD trial, which does work on my TiVo (although it's a bit klunky) - would Roku be a better way to go, do you think?


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## Fofer

stevel said:


> Grumble. While I CAN watch Amazon Video on my HR21 *(via PlayOn),* the free-for-Prime is for immediate streaming only, which requires that you initiate the viewing through the playing device. Still I may find it handy at times.


As, that's the tidbit I was wondering about.


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## KingSparta

SRAINESS said:


> ? HR21 ?


It's a direct TV Box


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## Fofer

Dan203 said:


> I bet that if this does come to TiVo it's going to be limited to S3/HD/Premiere units. The current Amazon method works with S2 units because all SD content is recoded to MPEG-2. However MPEG-2 is really inefficient for streaming which means the streaming stuff will most likely use H.264 or VC-1 like Netflix, which can only be played on S3 or newer units.


My gut tells me... Premiere units only. And, like the iPad app, this will be a source of great annoyance to all the S3 and TiVoHD owners out there. Especially the ones who paid about $800 for their units.

Yeesh. Exciting times ahead.


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## Fofer

KingSparta said:


> It's a direct TV Box


Right, not a TiVo box, but it's working with Amazon video by way of an add-on software that lives on a networked PC, called PlayOn. The HR21 doesn't have "native" support for this content built into it's UI, per se.


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## mattack

Dan203 said:


> I bet that if this does come to TiVo it's going to be limited to S3/HD/Premiere units.


I hope it's not Premiere only (but expect it to be, if it arrives at all).

My S3 & TivoHD are the only tv-based Netflix streaming devices I have (my iphone also does it, and I have actually used it that way at a friend's house while they were watching something I had already seen). Even though I already have netflix, and still prefer the DVDs to streaming, I like this, and would like my Tivos to support it.

There are some things on amazon's streaming that aren't on netflix' streaming.


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## wp746911

man oh man. I still love my tivo (2 premiers and 1 hd), but it pains me to see that tivo is pretty much the only box which could do amazon VOD but cant do this streaming. I hope they fix this soon, but I'd put this into the category of yet another ball that tivo has dropped. Streaming is vital and tivo is losing it.


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## Fofer

mattack said:


> There are some things on amazon's streaming that aren't on netflix' streaming.


Like what?


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## Beryl

I've had PRIME from several years now and glad to have this extra feature. I will attempt to use it on my iPad as I can't see how to access it on my TiVo. Prime eligible videos can only be "rented" right now.


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## Scyber

Fofer said:


> Like what?


Soylent Green

I'm sure there are others, but that is one. I bet one of the tech blogs will do a comparison article in the next few days. I'm much too lazy to do it myself.


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## Fofer

Beryl said:


> I've had PRIME from several years now and glad to have this extra feature. I will attempt to use it on my iPad as I can't see how to access it on my TiVo. Prime eligible videos can only be "rented" right now.


Definitely won't work on an iPad, sadly. Has *any* Amazon Video content? Not yet, I don't believe. Please, someone correct me if so...


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## Mossback

If TiVo follows their usual practice, this feature will be available on bricks, stones, and remotes before it works on TiVos. They've got the slowest programmers and the lamest product managers in the known universe.


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## SRAINESS

KingSparta said:


> It's a direct TV Box


I know.. i currently have both Fios (1 Tivo 3, and Fios DVR) & DTV (3 HR21's)
but could not figure out how to get Amazon in there... Although I think I just noticed that PLAYON is being used...


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## Beryl

Fofer said:


> Definitely won't work on an iPad, sadly. Has *any* Amazon Video content? Not yet, I don't believe. Please, someone correct me if so...


Yep, you are right. No Amazon streaming to my iPad. It needs Flash when I identify the browser as IE. Crap. I'd pay for an Amazon streaming app.


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## parzec

.... and Tivo falls a little farther behind in evolving technology. So much for the "one-box" ad slogan -- now people have to go out and buy a Roku if they want Amazon Prime Video.


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## Fofer

I had to revisit the image... and it's interesting to note, the asterisk makes _no promise_ that Prime Instant *will* be coming to TiVo boxes. The logo is there because TiVo boxes can handle the previous "on demand" content. And all the asterisk says is that "Prime Instant videos are not currently available on TiVo." No mention of models, when this capability might be expected, etc.

It's very possible that Prime Instant videos will NEVER be available on current TiVos (because they stream and don't download, TiVo's current Amazon app needs to be retooled.)

Sort of a sad realization for me. This might have been obvious to many of you, but seeing that logo without really thinking about the distinction here, just set me up with inappropriate expectations, I suppose.


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## tombauer

The TIVO rep I talked t last nite said that it would only be available on TIVO Premier. That said, can't Amazon recognize that you have a prime membership when you click on a movie to watch? I complained to the TIVO rep that I could get the Amazon Prime movies on a wireless blue-ray player, but not on an exsisting TIVO. Mentioned that there was no support for existing owners--


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## Fofer

And did this omniscient TiVo rep give you a time frame, to expect WHEN it would come to TiVo Premiere units?

Welcome to TCF!


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## Tony Chick

Looks like my Apple TV is out in the cold too due to Apples' "No Flash on iOS" edict. There may be a Roku in my future if TiVo doesn't come through.


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## Joe01880

I just got off the phone with Amazon. This may have been mentioned already but the free videos are for PAID Prime members. Not available for students or moms with Free prime membership.


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## Fofer

It's been mentioned already here, and it's mentioned rather prominently on all of their FAQ pages:



> What is Prime Instant Video?
> Prime instant videos provide unlimited, commercial-free, instant streaming of thousands of movies and TV shows at no additional cost with a $79 annual Amazon Prime membership, which also includes fast shipping along with other benefits. Prime instant videos can be watched instantly on a Mac, PC and nearly 200 models of Internet-connected TVs, Blu-ray players and set-top-boxes that are compatible with Amazon Instant Video. All of the movies and TV shows are commercial-free and some are available in HD.
> 
> For more information on ways to watch Prime instant videos, click here.
> 
> You can try an Amazon Prime membership by starting a free trial (restrictions apply) at http://www.amazon.com/primevideos.
> 
> *Prime instant videos require an Amazon Prime membership and are not included with the free shipping benefits provided by Amazon Mom, Amazon Student, or if you are a guest of an Amazon Prime member.* Prime instant videos are only available to customers located in the United States. At this time, Prime instant videos are only available for streaming and cannot be downloaded to a TiVo box or the Unbox Player.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=3748&#primeinstantvideos


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## MichaelK

Fofer said:


> Not entirely true. What device did you try from?
> 
> Because I just connected to Amazon Video On Demand via my Sony Blu-Ray (it's a BDP-S570) and there's a new section for "Prime Instant Videos." I'm browsing them now, and each movie I've selected thus far shows an SD version and an HD version. (Clockwork Orange, Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest, One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest, and a few others.)
> 
> I select the HD version, confirm that the rental price is $0.00, it checks my connection, and a few seconds later, it starts to play the video on my 53" TV. Looks great.
> 
> Some titles don't have an HD version.
> 
> Only one title in my quick test showed a price for the HD version, and that was Dirty Harry.


hmmm- the blurb i saw on another forum said that and so i checked. I quickly just looked at "scooby doo wheres my mummy" (cause it was right there on the front page) and had some wording that it was 'also available in hd on my tv'- i assumed that it meant it wasn't available in HD via the prime thing- but sounds like i misinterpreted it.


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## AlphaDelta

Seems bizarre that Amazon would put the TiVo logo (and a TiVo DVR) in that picture but then have the * not available note unless the intent is for it to be available in the future.


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## Fofer

No, if you look more closely, that image (and that ad) is talking about Amazon Video On Demand (it even mentions 90,000 titles.) That DOES work on TiVo... and has for years.

"Prime Instant" is a subset of that... a new add-on feature... and TiVo is the one device in the Amazon VOD-supported list that _doesn't_ work with Prime Instant's ~5,000 titles. So that's why the asterisk is there.

These titles don't download, they stream, and that's apparently a compatibility issue with how TiVo's Amazon app works.

When you see it that way, you'll then realize, that perhaps the asterisk isn't meant to imply that Prime Instant is on it's way to TiVo anytime soon. It might never arrive. This is TiVo, after all -- they're not exactly known for being on-the-ball. The asterisk just lets us know that TiVo's compatibility with Amazon VOD isn't as complete as the other devices'.


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## jdmass

AlphaDelta said:


> Seems bizarre that Amazon would put the TiVo logo (and a TiVo DVR) in that picture but then have the * not available note unless the intent is for it to be available in the future.


I think that page is simply showing devices that offer Amazon On-Demand. They had to add the asterisk for Tivo with the free prime intro so as to not mislead customers.

BTW, I'm an Amazon Prime member and have a Vizio TV with internet (as well as a Tivo) and last night tried a free Amazon movie on the Vizio. I thought the picture quality was quite good. I already have been using the Vizio Netflix app instead of the inferior Tivo app, so now, I guess I'll use Vizio for Amazon Prime, as well. (Although, unlike Netflix, the Amazon search capability on the Vizio is not as good).

It would be nice if tivo got it's act together and stayed up to date on features that others offer.


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## parzec

wp746911 said:


> man oh man. I still love my tivo (2 premiers and 1 hd), but it pains me to see that tivo is pretty much the only box which could do amazon VOD but cant do this streaming. I hope they fix this soon, but I'd put this into the category of yet another ball that tivo has dropped. Streaming is vital and tivo is losing it.


My thoughts exactly -- once again Tivo seems to be wasting another opportunity and acting overly complacent by relying too much on their "core competency." instead of aggressively keeping up with innovation. Reminds me of some Pink Floyd lyrics: "No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun" Tivo, don't let life pass you by.....


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## StevesWeb

wmcbrine said:


> I guess I'll check it out on my Roku while I wait for TiVo to get their act together...


Amazon just shipped my Roku player today, Prime of course. If TiVo is going to make an interface for Amazon Prime videos as awful as their Netflix interface I see no reason to wait.


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## lafos

Kind of ironic. TiVo was one of the first, if not the first, platform for Amazon VOD a few years back.


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## m_jonis

I wonder if it will be HD quality with Dolby Digital 5.1 sound? I know very little of Netflix content is this way. Just me, but I didn't fork out a few thousand for an HD TV and a TivoHD to watch non-HD/DD content. Of course, can't stream to the Tivo right now anyway, but it would be interesting if they DO stream HD with Dolby Digital sound.


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## mattack

Fofer said:


> Like what?


Doctor Who (e.g. the Key to Time season) for one. I had found some others yesterday but don't remember them at the moment.


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## RangerOne

Also Torchwood, Children of the earth. While there are a bunch of TV shows available in HD for Prime streaming, I can't find any movies. Of course, you could rent them. Also, there's a few titles that are not listed as HD but do play in HD (i.e. The Doctor Who special mattack cited). I've thrown some screen shots of this up on my blog listed below.

I can't find any Prime streaming content in 5.1 surround. However, if you turn on Dolby Pro Logic on your receiver you will get surround sound. Not as good as true Dolby Digital but it's better than stereo.


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## RangerOne

To better answer m_jonis' question. The Amazon client on Roku (and other devices) does support Dolby Digital 5.1 when it streams. There's lots of shows you can buy or rent that are in HD and Dolby Digital 5.1. Unfortuantely, none of them appear to be available under prime's streaming.


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## cubbyboy57

I have a ROKU and the Amazon Prime is a new item in the list (Search, HD Movie Rental, Movies, HD TV shows, TV Shows, Special Deals, Your Video Library, and Help). It shows without Prime the show would cost $1.99 and with it $0.00. My box does HD @ 720P (which is probably as good as the shows were originally shot in) and it looks great! So far nothing has streamed (watch 3 complete 1 hour tv shows) in less than HD. ROKU you don't get to choose it goes by whether the internet is fast enough.


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## MikeAndrews

I just gave in and bought the 30 day Amazon Prime trial. I had it before. One item I bought yesterday showed up today. What are they trying to prove?

I'll stream to my computer to the AVR and HDTV and see how it works.


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## djwilso

The Amazon Prime Streaming is working great on my Roku, although admittedly the selection is lacking. Hopefully that will change.

I have very low expectations that I'll ever see this feature on my TiVo original Series 3.


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## morac

Amazon on TiVo is very different than it is on other devices. It's more akin to downloading to a PC than streaming to a device. 

That has some benefits such as better quality (bit rate) and 1080p/24 video as opposed to the 720p video for streaming. Up till now there, other than the short wait required to start watching on download, there were no negatives. Prime "free" streaming is the first negative. 

On an unrelated note. I subscribed to Prime last year and apparently it auto renews itself since I just got billed $79 a few days ago. 

That leads me to a possible loophole in the "free" streaming. You can get a refund on your prime purchase if you haven't used it since purchasing it. If they haven't updated their system to count free streaming as using it, you can get a refund as long as you don't use free 2 day shipping. I'd think Amazon would have considered this, but you never know.


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## RangerOne

TiVo apparently has committed to support Amazon Prime streaming on their facebook page:



__ https://www.facebook.com/anthony.dehart/posts/10150090042665178


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## ZeoTiVo

RangerOne said:


> TiVo apparently has committed to support Amazon Prime streaming on their facebook page:
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/anthony.dehart/posts/10150090042665178


you have to logon to facebook to see that - any chance of copying the text here?


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## morac

ZeoTiVo said:


> you have to logon to facebook to see that - any chance of copying the text here?





TiVo said:


> TiVo is working with Amazon on this. No details regarding timing are available now, but we do plan to have this available in the future.


Maybe they are trying to get prime videos to be allowed for download to TiVo. Or maybe they will finally update the Amazon application. It's the only implementation of Amazon that I know of that doesn't let you see your video library from the TiVo so it needs updating any way (along with YouTube, Netflix, etc).


----------



## lessd

ZeoTiVo said:


> you have to logon to facebook to see that - any chance of copying the text here?


*I will try*

_Anthony's Profile · TiVo's Profile
Anthony DeHartTiVo
Any news on if/when Tivo will support the new Amazon Prime Instant streaming service? And, just as importantly, will it be available on the Tivo HD or Series 3 platform?
Tuesday at 10:40am
Steve Lemke likes this..
MZ MegaZone Technologically I don't know of a reason why they couldn't support the streaming service just like the downloads on all three platforms (S3/HD/Premiere).

Hmm, check out http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/ontv/ontv - not that the TiVo logo is in ...the list of devices with instant support. Then note the asterisk and "*Prime instant videos are not currently available on TiVo devices." But it seems implied that they will be.See More
Tuesday at 12:51pm.Bill Blackwell When do we get this? Seems like a big miss not to have this at launch.
Tuesday at 1:16pm.MZ MegaZone I'm guessing it requires and update to the client on the TiVo so, at the least, it is tied to TiVo's update cycle.
Tuesday at 5:07pm.TiVo TiVo is working with Amazon on this. No details regarding timing are available now, but we do plan to have this available in the future.
Tuesday at 7:41pm · 1 personLoading....Gabe Gagliano Please don't forget the Series3 folks!
12 hours ago · 1 personLoading_....


----------



## ZeoTiVo

morac said:


> Maybe they are trying to get prime videos to be allowed for download to TiVo. Or maybe they will finally update the Amazon application. It's the only implementation of Amazon that I know of that doesn't let you see your video library from the TiVo so it needs updating any way (along with YouTube, Netflix, etc).


if it was my project to run I would be looking to come up with some framework that would allow BROWSING of either Netflix or Amazon for streaming titles.

I would think the current Tech would allow to add in Streaming Amazon titles to TiVo search and you get them but the TiVo search is just not the same kind of fun as say Netflix on a gaming console where you can browse various genres by moving rows of DVD box covers around


----------



## dswallow

ZeoTiVo said:


> you have to logon to facebook to see that - any chance of copying the text here?


God forbid you should actually have to log on somewhere to see content from there.


----------



## dswallow

I used Amazon Prime instant videos to start watching the MI-5 series last night. Works great. Of course, that's on both my Panasonic 3D Blu-ray player and through my Panasonic 3D plasma display, using Viera Cast, not via a TiVo device.


----------



## astrohip

My new TV (Samsung UN55C6800) is Internet enabled. I never thought I would use that feature, but I may have to actually read the manual and figure out how to turn it on. I have Prime, so I'd like to see how well this works.

I'm very happy with "TiVo and TV", and have never Netflix'ed or VOD or any of that stuff. But I'll at least check this out.


----------



## jeremy3721

Another reason not to ever buy hardware expecting things to work in the future. No Hulu still and now I'm disappointed the Amazon prime video isn't included. I almost bought a second TiVo premiere last week assuming this service would work.


----------



## djwilso

dswallow said:


> God forbid you should actually have to log on somewhere to see content from there.


Some people don't like logging into Facebook, because once you do, you stay logged in when you visit other sites.

On these other sites, if there are "Like" buttons present, Facebook can track your habits and collect your web history.

I suppose if you don't mind giving away this information, then by all means, bow down to your Facebook overlords.


----------



## Brainiac 5

djwilso said:


> Some people don't like logging into Facebook, because once you do, you stay logged in when you visit other sites.


Not to mention, some people (gasp) don't have a Facebook account, and (double gasp) don't want one.


----------



## djwilso

morac said:


> Amazon on TiVo is very different than it is on other devices. It's more akin to downloading to a PC than streaming to a device.
> 
> That has some benefits such as better quality (bit rate) and 1080p/24 video as opposed to the 720p video for streaming. Up till now there, other than the short wait required to start watching on download, there were no negatives. Prime "free" streaming is the first negative.
> 
> On an unrelated note. I subscribed to Prime last year and apparently it auto renews itself since I just got billed $79 a few days ago.
> 
> That leads me to a possible loophole in the "free" streaming. You can get a refund on your prime purchase if you haven't used it since purchasing it. If they haven't updated their system to count free streaming as using it, you can get a refund as long as you don't use free 2 day shipping. I'd think Amazon would have considered this, but you never know.


This isn't the first negative. TiVo's implementation of Amazon Video On Demand also does not include the following features:

1. Your Video Library
2. Ability to view previews or trailers of available titles

Your Video Library enables you to easily access previously purchased content.

These are two negatives, and now the no Prime streaming is a third. There are probably more that I haven't thought of.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

dswallow said:


> God forbid you should actually have to log on somewhere to see content from there.


I have a FB account - but was at work and do not like logging on to FB at work, FB leaves too much of a trail I would rather keep on a home PC.
Also we have plenty of TCFers who do not have FB accounts and I,_ unlike you with your rude threadcrap_, was thinking of them and hoping LessD could simply copy and paste the relevant part. LessD did that with no problem.

and no the smiley did not make it all better for me


----------



## dswallow

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have a FB account - but was at work and do not like logging on to FB at work, FB leaves too much of a trail I would rather keep on a home PC.
> Also we have plenty of TCFers who do not have FB accounts and I,_ unlike you with your rude threadcrap_, was thinking of them and hoping LessD could simply copy and paste the relevant part. LessD did that with no problem.
> 
> and no the smiley did not make it all better for me


Ever tried those anonymous modes of your browser that won't leave anything behind beyond the current session?

And it wasn't a rude threadcrap, your nasty little comment was a threadcrap.


----------



## shwru980r

I think there will be some confusion for new customers who find they can't stream amazon content, similar to the $99/$19.99 promotion.


----------



## Fofer

dswallow said:


> And it wasn't a rude threadcrap


Actually, the _"God forbid you should actually have to..."_ part? Yeah, that was a little rude.


----------



## dswallow

Fofer said:


> Actually, the _"God forbid you should actually have to..."_ part? Yeah, that was a little rude.


Perhaps it was the somewhat constant [tired-of-endless-paranoia-over-perceived-privacy-issues] that one has to endure around here (usually via controversy over free-to-register-but-registration-required sites like www.nytimes.com) that led me to be more sarcastic than might've been worthy for the original comment (i.e, I read more into it than was actually written). But it really wasn't rude. And as generally evidenced by the smiley accompanying it, was certainly not intended to be. That he should've actually then gone out of his way to interpret it as rude is the problem. Perhaps he's just having a bad day. God knows if I had to work someplace where I had to be paranoid about visiting Facebook to read something, especially if I didn't have to be paranoid about visiting TCF to know I needed to visit Facebook to read something, I'd probably have a lot of bad days, too.


----------



## Fofer

dswallow said:


> But it really wasn't rude.


We'll disagree, then.

You see the world through a decidedly different lens than the rest of us.


----------



## uw69

I'm going to have to decide between a new separate box (Roku, Boxee) or a blu-ray player that has the apps I would like to have (Amazon VOD prime streaming), Hulu plus, Last.FM or Pandora). 

I'm not sure Tivo will ever "get" it.


----------



## dswallow

Fofer said:


> We'll disagree, then.
> 
> You see the world through a decidedly different lens than the rest of us.


I see the world. You see the world through some kind of lens.


----------



## Fofer

dswallow said:


> I see the world. You see the world through some kind of lens.


I'm rubber and you're glue.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

dswallow said:


> Ever tried those anonymous modes of your browser that won't leave anything behind beyond the current session?
> 
> And it wasn't a rude threadcrap, your nasty little comment was a threadcrap.


it was a simple thing for Lessd to copy, simple request. getting a simple quote off facebook or any facebook at work is not worth the trouble of hiding my tracks  
So yeah, even others said you had no need to make some comment about logging in and still you are not even thinking of those who have no facebook. Typical. Anyhow I did not feel like letting your nasty little "God Forbid you log in" threadcrap aimed at me go by, but no need to drag it out for others. Have fun with the last word


----------



## jcthorne

I appreciated the quote being posted here. I do not have nor do I want a FB account. 

Just because I am paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me.


----------



## larrs

dswallow said:


> God forbid you should actually have to log on somewhere to see content from there.


Not to get involved in your back and forth )), but FB *is *one of the pages blocked at many companies...


----------



## NotVeryWitty

jcthorne said:


> I appreciated the quote being posted here. I do not have nor do I want a FB account.me.


This.


larrs said:


> Not to get involved in your back and forth )), but FB *is *one of the pages blocked at many companies...


And this.


----------



## dswallow

larrs said:


> Not to get involved in your back and forth )), but FB *is *one of the pages blocked at many companies...


He didn't say "Facebook is blocked here so I can't look. Can someone please post what it says so I don't have to wait till I get home?"


----------



## Fofer

dswallow said:


> He didn't say "Facebook is blocked here so I can't look. Can someone please post what it says so I don't have to wait till I get home?"


Why should he have to? You're the one who assumed he didn't want to login because he had some philosophical conflict with website registration. You're also the one who made fun of someone who may tiptoe around what websites they access at work. Meanwhile, all of that is beside the point. He merely asked that the TiVo info be copy-pasted here. That simple request needn't be met with such snarkiness and complication.


----------



## sangahm

Fofer said:


> ...He merely asked that the TiVo info be copy-pasted here. .


I think yes.


----------



## parzec

RangerOne said:


> TiVo apparently has committed to support Amazon Prime streaming on their facebook page:
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/anthony.dehart/posts/10150090042665178


Well, this is encouraging news: as one poster stated in FB, definitely a miss not to have compatibility at launch, but at least Tivo sounds committed to providing it in the future.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Well, they also committed to deliver Hulu Plus and that's still MIA, not to mention that they committed to fixing/finishing the HD UI in the Premiere and few believe that will happen anymore.

Tivo now is a long list of failed promises, unfortunately. The iPad app is the only redeeming thing I've seen them deliver lately, but it's not available on the S3/HDs which were still being sold a year ago. The late buyers were abandoned for that app, in other words.


----------



## stevel

FWIW, PlayOn released an update that allows Amazon Prime viewing of videos through compatible devices such as the DirecTV HR2x series. According to their support people, some users find that they need to add some regular Amazon VOD to their "library" (can be one of the free previews), stop and restart the PlayOn server, and then the Prime videos will be browsable. Indeed I did have to do this and it did work.


----------



## MMaleto

shwru980r said:


> I think there will be some confusion for new customers who find they can't stream amazon content, similar to the $99/$19.99 promotion.


I took that deal and after investigating a bit, I could have purchased a refurb and gotten the monthly down to 12.95


----------



## mikeyts

I decided to invest in an inexpensive streamer to get to the Prime Eligible Amazon streams. I tried both the Roku XD ($80) and Panasonic DMP-BDT110 3D BD player ($130). The Roku is OK; it had a ton of "channels" which can be downloaded, but none of them much interested me. The BDT110 had the same advanced Netflix player as the PS3 with access to DD+ audio and closed captions on some titles (the PS3 has access to some higher bitrate HD encodings--5+ Mbps versus 3.8--which are presumably the advertised 1080p ones). I thought that the BDT110's Amazon VOD player had some advantages; for one thing, you could see which Prime Eligible streams had HD encodings at a glance, which you cannot in the Roku's player (uniquely--if you look at any other list of titles you can see which ones are HD). The BDT110 also has a VUDU player, which the Roku does not, as well as CinemaNow and Hulu Plus (though I'm not interested in either).

So I sent the Roku back and kept the BDT110. I've had it for a week now and haven't tried playing a BD in it yet--I should probably test that .

A bit off-topic, but I used a realtime bandwidth usage monitor in my router's firmware (some freeware called "Tomato") to perform some casual study of bandwidth utilization while playing the same Netflix stream through six different players on an otherwise quiescent LAN. You can see that data posted here and here on AVS Forum. I mostly compare the PS3 playing Netflix to the Roku and BDT110, but the second posts has some data from streaming HD Netflix to my TiVo S3, Xbox and PC, as well as streams of an HD Amazon title to the BDT110 and Roku.


----------



## javabird

Fofer said:


> We'll disagree, then.
> 
> You see the world through a decidedly different lens than the rest of us.


At my workplace, we are not allowed to access FB at all due to security policies. So a website that requires a FB account to login is inaccessible.


----------



## randy1649

I too (new to tivo and an amazon prime member) just discovered the hard way that amazon and tivo do not do instant streaming, like netflix does. Since netflix does, hardware wise tivo "could" but thus far it is not supported by tivo. Or possibly amazon being so new to streaming, might have not given TIVO the ok to go with instant streaming...yet. Who knows which end is the problem. 
So first an ongoing issue with the cablecard still not working, and now no amazon instant streaming for amazon prime customers. hmmmmm
At least Im still in my "free 30 days trial" timeframe...


----------



## mikeyts

randy1649 said:


> Or possibly amazon being so new to streaming, might have not given TIVO the ok to go with instant streaming...yet.


Amazon's been streaming video to Roku and other boxes since sometime in 2009. Anyone renting or purchasing a film also had the option of downloading it to TiVo or their PC for playback, so there was no reason for TiVo to stream it. This new "Prime Eligible" content, available at no additional charge to Amazon Prime members, is streaming only, leaving TiVo out as a device for playing it back.


----------



## stevel

However, there are other streaming players that do support Amazon's new service. TiVo support is said to be "coming".


----------



## mikeyts

stevel said:


> However, there are other streaming players that do support Amazon's new service. TiVo support is said to be "coming".


I looked at the Roku XD, which is certainly adequate for $80, and ended up buying the Panasonic DMP-BDT110, a $130 3D BD player with Panasonic's "Viera Cast" suite of networked media players (currently Netflix, Amazon, CinemaNow, VUDU, Yahoo, Pandora). It's Netflix player has access to 5.1 sound and closed captioning, for titles which feature them; I liked its Amazon player best because that the time you couldn't tell which Prime Eligible titles had HD encodings in Roku's, though that might have changed with the latest firmware revision. (The BDT110 comes with a coupon with which to obtain a free 3D BD of _Avatar_, currently a Panasonic exclusive which people have been selling on ebay for $100+ ).


----------



## randy1649

Well.. the cable company just got one of my cable cards working (I have 2 premieres), and the HD PQ is outstanding!!! So despite amazon, I would not consider leaving tivo... now. I can wait for amazon streaming. Once the cable co. gets my second tivo cable card going, I will have no complaint. I guess I have to look at it this way.. netflix I can stream and amazon I can buy or rent and then DL to the unit. I can live with that, especially with the amazing HD PQ I am now getting over cable tv via the cable card. I just wanted to take advantage of the free unlimited streaming amazon offers to prime members. For some reason I blame amazon for the lack of tivo streaming, maybe because no where in the amazon instant video info do they state tivo streaming is not supported. At least not upfront on their website. I had to dig and dig to find that information on amazon as to tivo streaming. BTW, netflix streaming works nicely.


----------



## letsroll

dswallow said:


> Perhaps it was the somewhat constant [tired-of-endless-paranoia-over-perceived-privacy-issues] that one has to endure around here (usually via controversy over free-to-register-but-registration-required sites like www.nytimes.com) that led me to be more sarcastic than might've been worthy for the original comment (i.e, I read more into it than was actually written). But it really wasn't rude. And as generally evidenced by the smiley accompanying it, was certainly not intended to be. That he should've actually then gone out of his way to interpret it as rude is the problem. Perhaps he's just having a bad day. God knows if I had to work someplace where I had to be paranoid about visiting Facebook to read something, especially if I didn't have to be paranoid about visiting TCF to know I needed to visit Facebook to read something, I'd probably have a lot of bad days, too.


Enough with your threadcrapping, some lurkers are trying to figure out what's going on with amazon prime and tivo.


----------



## letsroll

dswallow said:


> Perhaps it was the somewhat constant [tired-of-endless-paranoia-over-perceived-privacy-issues] that one has to endure around here (usually via controversy over free-to-register-but-registration-required sites like www.nytimes.com) that led me to be more sarcastic than might've been worthy for the original comment (i.e, I read more into it than was actually written). But it really wasn't rude. And as generally evidenced by the smiley accompanying it, was certainly not intended to be. That he should've actually then gone out of his way to interpret it as rude is the problem. Perhaps he's just having a bad day. God knows if I had to work someplace where I had to be paranoid about visiting Facebook to read something, especially if I didn't have to be paranoid about visiting TCF to know I needed to visit Facebook to read something, I'd probably have a lot of bad days, too.


Enough with your threadcrapping, some lurkers are trying to figure out what's going on with amazon prime and tivo. STFU


----------



## 1080p guy

letsroll said:


> Enough with your threadcrapping, some lurkers are trying to figure out what's going on with amazon prime and tivo. STFU


And you just entered the fray by calling it "threadcrapping"! How is it that people on these forums(& I've yet to come across any forum this does'nt occur) people find the necessity to get involved with comments that were'nt directed to them personally! Is there an overabundance of people who end up emotionally devastated & crying profusely because others did'nt chime in with their comments? Life goes on. "Threadcrapping" is a pretty inventive term. I can't say I think it really derails threads though,unless, there's a lull in the subject matter discussion. Don't worry, the subject will come up again! (Oops! am I guilty of "Threadcrapping"? Oh the shame!!)


----------



## mikeyts

1080p guy said:


> "Threadcrapping" is a pretty inventive term.


I doubt that he invented it--I've heard it many times before.

He must have felt strongly about it--it was only his 10th post in over 3 years membership at this site.


----------



## 1080p guy

mikeyts said:


> I doubt that he invented it--I've heard it many times before.
> 
> He must have felt strongly about it--it was only his 10th post in over 3 years membership at this site.


I was'nt implying that he might have invented the term. It really is kind of a shame that anyone feels that strongly about something that really does'nt warrant having concern about. There's a famous quote from Field of Dreams that goes "If you build it, they will come" Well, to this I would add "If you ignore conversations that are'nt yours, they will go away". It really is'nt rocket science. Better yet, start a new thread! Do people really sit around thinking "Oh, crap now I'll never find out what I was wondering about!" If that's the case, then maybe they should be surfing the Self Assertiveness help forums. (Sorry for the soap box rant, but it seems 'comon' sense has gone the way of the 8track tape these days!)


----------



## dswallow

letsroll said:


> Enough with your threadcrapping, some lurkers are trying to figure out what's going on with amazon prime and tivo.


Seriously? You reply to a 2-month-old comment that was germane to the discussion at the time but is now long past and you actually have the nerve to claim I'm the one thread-crapping?

Or maybe I should say: You mostly lurk and what finally gets you to post something is this?


----------



## bworrell

Any new news on when this is going to be supported by Tivo? I just recently signed up for Amazon Prime. Why isn't this supported yet?


----------



## wp746911

my guess is when they support the dual core processor and when they fix the HD menus...


----------



## puffy_fluff

wp746911 said:


> my guess is when they support the dual core processor and when they fix the HD menus...


When will that be?


----------



## Fofer

Anyone's guess. Some say it's taken so long (over a year with no news) that it might _never_ happen. These are glaring omissions, and you'd think TiVo would be embarrassed to not have finished it by now.


----------



## rdodolak

puffy_fluff said:


> When will that be?


Only TiVo knows when, or if, that may happen ...


----------



## Joe Siegler

bworrell said:


> Any new news on when this is going to be supported by Tivo? I just recently signed up for Amazon Prime. Why isn't this supported yet?


...and we roll on into another month. Nothing here yet. Sigh.


----------



## morac

Joe Siegler said:


> ...and we roll on into another month. Nothing here yet. Sigh.


Just assume it will never happen. Otherwise you set yourself up for disappointment.

Having been a TiVo customer for about 8 years, I've come to the conclusion that once something is released by TiVo it is rarely updated. This is more true of recent releases. Good examples of this are YouTube, Netflix and the HD user interface.

I've come to believe that TiVo apparently wants to be a jack of all trades, but master of none (save DVR functionally). So as long as a feature is at least semi-functional, it won't be updated. That would include Amazon, which ironically I think is one of TiVo's strongest features.


----------



## aaronwt

How is the Amazon streaming anyway with the devices that have it. I don't think any of my devices have it.


----------



## rainwater

aaronwt said:


> How is the Amazon streaming anyway with the devices that have it. I don't think any of my devices have it.


It works similar to Netflix. I don't have any issues streaming Netflix so I have never had issues streaming Amazon. I use streaming on my Roku because unlike the TiVo, I don't have to wait for it to download and it appears the quality is no different than the download version.


----------



## mikeyts

aaronwt said:


> How is the Amazon streaming anyway with the devices that have it. I don't think any of my devices have it.


It's fine. I bought the Panasonic DMP-BDT110 3D BD player mostly to get the Viera Cast Netflix player. HD PQ and AQ is on par with Netflix 720p, though at a significantly lower average bit rate, increasing your chances of getting the HD stream on lower bandwidth service.


----------



## morac

rainwater said:


> It works similar to Netflix. I don't have any issues streaming Netflix so I have never had issues streaming Amazon. I use streaming on my Roku because unlike the TiVo, I don't have to wait for it to download and it appears the quality is no different than the download version.


The download version is higher quality (1024i or 1024/24p) at around a 6 Mbps bit rate. Whether that makes a difference or not depends on TV and source material.

Personally for rentals, I prefer the TiVo since i like the local control (trick play and the like) and the ability to watch up to 30 days after renting. For purchases, I prefer Roku because I don't really care about downloading (though I can watch while downloading) and it works well.

The fly in the ointment is that the servers' Amazon uses are sometimes overloaded during the evenings, which makes streaming impossible. So downloading during the day gets around that. Strangely Netflix never has speed issues, likely because they use multiple providers.


----------



## Beryl

aaronwt said:


> How is the Amazon streaming anyway with the devices that have it. I don't think any of my devices have it.


It works just fine with my Sony Media Player. I'd rather use my TiVos but the SMP will do.


----------



## Aero 1

my cross post from AVS as an FYI:

dont know if this was mentioned here or not, but as you know, if you have one of the free 1 year amazon mom or student Prime accounts, instant streaming is not included.

But today, my free student Prime account expires and i got a renewal email for $39 and now it includes streaming. so if you have a student account, wait the year if you really, really want streaming.


----------



## jlb

I just wanted to chime in too regarding Amazon VOD. Since we have just basic cable (for local HD), we use Amazon for In Plain Sight. Our downloads generally are pushed Sunday evening/overnight.

Quality is great. Never a problem.


----------



## c.hack

I use a Roku for Netflix and Amazon streaming. Roku quality and reliability and interface are much much better than TiVo. You can get a new Roku for $59 with no monthly fees. Its incredible how incompetent TiVo has become at everything except collecting money. They need to fire their employees (who stopped innovating 10 years ago) and start fresh.


----------



## atmuscarella

c.hack said:


> I use a Roku for Netflix and Amazon streaming. Roku quality and reliability and interface are much much better than TiVo. You can get a new Roku for $59 with no monthly fees. Its incredible how incompetent TiVo has become at everything except collecting money. They need to fire their employees (who stopped innovating 10 years ago) and start fresh.


So how is the Roku at recording cable/satellite/OTA signals?

TiVo is a DVR with some added Internet access features. A Roku is a streaming device. Comparing the cost of the 2 is like comparing the cost of apples and oranges.

It would be great if a TiVo had all the streaming features of a Roku and I think TiVo made a mistake not adding as much of that functionality as possible but honestly at this point the streaming ship has sailed.

Either someone is willing to pay for a TiVo as a DVR or they are not. As you pointed out anyone can get streaming abilities for $59 and most new TVs and blu-ray players are moving in the direction of providing most of what a Roku provides now and in the very near future will provide all the streaming abilities anyone will want/need. Again leaving TiVo's value as being a DVR.

Thanks,


----------



## miller890

With Netflix price increase announced yesterday I was considering Amazon Prime as a replacement for streaming content. I have used Amazon VOD with TiVo, but it looks like Amazon Prime streaming still isn't available. I bet I am out of luck with a TiVo Series-3 anyways.



> TiVo and Unbox Player: Prime instant videos are only available for streaming and cannot be downloaded to a TiVo box or the Unbox Player. Prime instant videos can be watched on a Mac, PC and nearly 200 models of Internet-connected TVs, Blu-ray players and set-top-boxes.


----------



## poppagene

aaronwt said:


> How is the Amazon streaming anyway with the devices that have it. I don't think any of my devices have it.


Unlike the Netflix streaming, Amazon prime instant streaming let's you decide whether to watch in HD or SD if both are available. My last years model Sony BDP-S270 & BDP-S370 both have had this feature available through an update (since like tivo prime instant streaming wasn't in existance when they were manufactured). The quality is good.


----------



## morac

poppagene said:


> Unlike the Netflix streaming, Amazon prime instant streaming let's you decide whether to watch in HD or SD if both are available. My last years model Sony BDP-S270 & BDP-S370 both have had this feature available through an update (since like tivo prime instant streaming wasn't in existance when they were manufactured). The quality is good.


That used to be the case on the Roku box, but at some point a few years back any purchased HD shows (you also get the SD version), would only show the HD version. When I called and asked about this, I was told this was because it would automatically switch to SD for slow connections.


----------



## javabird

How does the Amazon streaming work (on a compatible TV) if you start watching a movie and then stop in the middle. Can you resume it later?


----------



## atmuscarella

javabird said:


> How does the Amazon streaming work (on a compatible TV) if you start watching a movie and then stop in the middle. Can you resume it later?


That is a good question I assume you mean like you turned off the device and came back latter not if you just paused it and came back latter. Either way I don't know the answer.

But I know there was some minor ability to have this work with Hulu+ in the TiVo Hulu+ app. There were a few times when I had started to watch something and left Hulu completely when I went back in to watch the same show it asked if I want to start from the beginning or where I left off. However there seemed to be some very short period of time that this would work after which it just started the show from the beginning.

Thanks,


----------



## Fofer

elprice7345 said:


> Awesome feature!


Awesome spammer!


----------



## mikeyts

javabird said:


> How does the Amazon streaming work (on a compatible TV) if you start watching a movie and then stop in the middle. Can you resume it later?


Yes. I just tried it on a film using my BD player (Panasonic DMP-BDT110). I stopped, exited and turned the BD player off (not really meaningful). When I started the player again and went back to the movie, it had "resume" and "play from the beginning" options. I found the stream at Amazon.com and though it didn't have a "resume" option, when I pressed the PLAY button it started from where I left off on the BD player.


----------



## sbiller




----------



## Fofer

Meh. I'll believe it when I see it. "no details on timing" is basically a form response to customers that, when translated, means "no idea, leave us alone."


----------



## sbiller

Fofer said:


> Meh. I'll believe it when I see it. "no details on timing" is basically a form response to customers that, when translated, means "no idea, leave us alone."


My view is its one level above no response at all!


----------



## Aero 1

When TiVo formally announces prime videos, make sure you add the customary TiVo timeframe. So, the formula is probably "announcement day + N(7 years)" with n being whatever people think it will be.


----------



## morac

My take on "working with Amazon" is that TiVo is trying to get Amazon to allow Prime videos to download, but Amazon is refusing.


----------



## Fofer

My take is that it's "_we asked our intern send an email to the intern he says he knows works at Amazon, but we're not sure if he sent it, and if so, if he ever got a response. In fact, we haven't seen that intern in a few weeks now, does he still work here?_"


----------



## wmcbrine

morac said:


> My take on "working with Amazon" is that TiVo is trying to get Amazon to allow Prime videos to download, but Amazon is refusing.


Why would they refuse, when they allow it on Roku? 

Edit: I just noticed the word "download". No, I see this being implemented as a streaming service, just like Netflix.


----------



## morac

wmcbrine said:


> Edit: I just noticed the word "download". No, I see this being implemented as a streaming service, just like Netflix.


It is a streaming service, but TiVo units can't stream from Amazon, they can only download. Every other device that works with Amazon streams, which is why TiVo is the only product that Prime videos don't work with. Adding the ability to stream to the TiVo software would require some kind of effort on TiVo's and we know that once TiVo releases a feature, they never update it (See Netflix, YouTube, etc). So yes, TiVo could simply implement streaming to get Prime videos, but no, they won't. Hence my download comment.


----------



## wmcbrine

morac said:


> It is a streaming service, but TiVo units can't stream from Amazon, they can only download.


This is not a fact of nature, merely the current state of affairs. I'm saying, write a damn streaming HME client for Amazon like they did for Netflix. I don't expect them to negotiate for download rights, and I see no reason for them to.

It's not a big deal to write a streaming client. It would probably be mostly cut-and-paste from the Netflix app. Managing the queue, or however that works on Amazon, is likely the significant part.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Yeah and given that they've never bothered with this for Netflix q's, it's probably an impossible mountain for Tivo to climb.


----------



## Fofer

They can't even get YouTube playlists to work properly, and that bug has existed for over two years. And the Netflix implementation is the worst of any platform.

Expecting them to be able to integrate Amazon Prime Instant Streaming in any way alongside the downloading of the original Amazon Instant ("Unbox?") seems a bit... far-fetched to me.


----------



## mikeyts

My guess is that downloading is never going to be an option for Prime Eligible Amazon Instant Video. If so, why wouldn't they have allowed it from the beginning? I'm sure that anyone can go and download any of the content on the Prime Eligible list onto their TiVo or PC on a rental or purchase basis--as a Prime sub, it gives me the big green "Watch Now Unlimited Streaming $0.00", but it also gives me 1-click Rent and Buy options. My bet is that streaming-only is part of their deal with their content providers for Prime Eligible video and they're not going to make an exception for TiVo.


----------



## Fofer

Agreed. Then TiVo needs to figure out how to stream it. Otherwise they'll aways have this asterisk as the lone standout, the red-headed stepchild that can't do all the same things that those hundreds of other boxes (and now, TV's) can do. I mean, seriously, a $60 Roku box can do it. Why the heck can't a TiVo? I thought the TiVo Premiere was being marketed as the "one box to rule them all?" Pshaw.


----------



## djwilso

wmcbrine said:


> It's not a big deal to write a streaming client. It would probably be mostly cut-and-paste from the Netflix app. Managing the queue, or however that works on Amazon, is likely the significant part.


Well, I sure hope they don't reuse any part of their abysmal Netflix app in any other endeavor. It is terrible, the worst Netflix implementation of any vendor.


----------



## Beryl

Heck, we can't even get previously purchased media over to our TiVos without using our laptops. You can log into Amazon from TiVo but if you attempt to download media from your library, you'll pay for it again. 

I'm not holding my breath for streaming but I'll be happy when/if it is offered.


----------



## plparson

I loved Tivo. I've bought five. I've got 2 HDs currently. I still like them. But it's time to pry the love from my cold dead heart. The ad banner above this message box says "All you need is ROKU. Starting at $59" Targeted marketing and says it all.


----------



## Fofer

Roku doesn't record cable TV (or even OTA) TV though. So a Roku would be a nice companion to it. Not quite a replacement. Unless you're going to be downloading/streaming all of your shows?


----------



## aaronwt

Yes a Roku would compliment the TiVo. I picked up a Roku2 last week. My only real complaint is that it does not have native resolution output. That is one thing that makes the TiVo better for me since any device like the PS3 or Roku2 that scales content always has an inferior picture than what my external video processor/scaler provides.
But the Roku2 does have Amazon Prime streaming and 5.1 DD+/ 1080P from Netflix. And it is a better experience than what the PS3 provides. And it only uses 2 watts. So I will be using my Roku2 more for streaming content now than my Premieres or even my Boxee Boxes.


----------



## Beryl

I've been streaming Amazon Prime media w/Sony Media Player. It works quite well but I'll take look at the Roku.


----------



## aaronwt

Beryl said:


> I've been streaming Amazon Prime media w/Sony Media Player. It works quite well but I'll take look at the Roku.


It works well on the Roku2.


----------



## tomm1079

i actually just returned my Roku. It just bugged the hell out of me that i couldn't stream local content. The Roku 2 firewire busted it so none of the local media streamers work

Now im trying to decide which box to get WDTV or Sony one and if Amazon Prime is a must have.


----------



## aaronwt

tomm1079 said:


> i actually just returned my Roku. It just bugged the hell out of me that i couldn't stream local content. The Roku 2 firewire busted it so none of the local media streamers work
> 
> Now im trying to decide which box to get WDTV or Sony one and if Amazon Prime is a must have.


The Roku 2 can stream local content, it is just limited in what it can play back. I watch mainly BD ISOs so i have several media players that can play those containers. But I plan on using the Roku 2 mainly for Neflix streaming, Amazon Streaming, and Hulu+ streaming since it seems to work very well with those three services.


----------



## Beryl

tomm1079 said:


> i actually just returned my Roku. It just bugged the hell out of me that i couldn't stream local content. The Roku 2 firewire busted it so none of the local media streamers work
> 
> Now im trying to decide which box to get WDTV or Sony one and if Amazon Prime is a must have.


If I was getting a new Sony, it would be the Blu Ray player that also does Skype.


----------



## Fofer

Beryl said:


> If I was getting a new Sony, it would be the Blu Ray player that also does Skype.


Cool! This is it:
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-BDP-S780-Blu-ray-Disc-Player/dp/B004MF79QM

I love my Sony BDP-S570. Out of all my set top boxes it seems the most versatile. If I were to get another one I'd be seriously considering this new Skype-capable one. That's awesome.


----------



## tomm1079

aaronwt said:


> The Roku 2 can stream local content, it is just limited in what it can play back. I watch mainly BD ISOs so i have several media players that can play those containers. But I plan on using the Roku 2 mainly for Neflix streaming, Amazon Streaming, and Hulu+ streaming since it seems to work very well with those three services.


From everything i read local streaming is broke and nobody knows when it will be fixed since the boxes are so buggy. Playon and Plex both have issues and neither one works.


----------



## Scyber

tomm1079 said:


> From everything i read local streaming is broke and nobody knows when it will be fixed since the boxes are so buggy. Playon and Plex both have issues and neither one works.


Local streaming isn't broken. Transcoding local streaming is currently busted. If your files are already in the very specific codec/container that roku supports, you can still stream locally.


----------



## Fofer

Scyber said:


> Local streaming isn't broken. Transcoding local streaming is currently busted. If your files are already in the very specific codec/container that roku supports, you can still stream locally.


Isn't transcoding handled by the networked server/computer on which the files are stored?


----------



## Scyber

Fofer said:


> Isn't transcoding handled by the networked server/computer on which the files are stored?


Yes. But in order to stream transcoded content the servers need to use HTTP Live Streaming (HLS) format. The R2 doesn't properly parse the HLS playlist files that the transcoding servers produce. R1 can still play the files.

Since the R2 doesn't even play the HLS examples in the Roku SDK, it is assumed that this is something that will be fixed. Roku has always been very tightlipped about updates and bug fixes, so there is no ETA.


----------



## innocentfreak

I realize this more about the videos, but has anyone else noticed lately with Prime Amazon is no longer defaulting to items with Prime shipping?

My mom recently bought a bunch of items and they weren't sent with 2 day shipping. She said they didn't offer it with Prime. Every single item was available with Prime for the same price, but Amazon defaulted to a seller without Prime for the same price. Even worse if you search for the items the results list with Prime, but when you click the item it takes you to the non-Prime option. 

I just figured I would give people the heads up because she didn't realize they had the option for more under the small link for so many new from $xx.xx. It definitely seems like they are going out of their way to send you to the non-Prime vendor.


----------



## Fofer

I've only noticed that when Amazon's out of stock. I rather appreciate that they've directed me to the external vendor that has it in stock instead. I don't think they're trying to weasel out of them having to ship it to you via Prime.


----------



## innocentfreak

Fofer said:


> I've only noticed that when Amazon's out of stock. I rather appreciate that they've directed me to the external vendor that has it in stock instead. I don't think they're trying to weasel out of them having to ship it to you via Prime.


It is happening on every item and the items are in stock.

For example Intel i5-2500K with Prime, click the link and it takes me to without Prime. Prime available though http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B004EBUXHQ/ref=olp_prime_all?ie=UTF8&shipPromoFilter=1&sort=sip&me=&seller=&condition=all

Both listings are for Amazon in this case.


----------



## mikeyts

innocentfreak said:


> It is happening on every item and the items are in stock.
> 
> For example Intel i5-2500K with Prime, click the link and it takes me to without Prime. Prime available though http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B004EBUXHQ/ref=olp_prime_all?ie=UTF8&shipPromoFilter=1&sort=sip&me=&seller=&condition=all
> 
> Both listings are for Amazon in this case.


They automatically show you the best in-stock price+shipping deal; all things being equal, they'll give you one of the prime-shipping ones.

For the item that you link to, I get the prime-shipping item from Amazon as the best deal, which is $219.99; Circuit City has it for the same price with free shipping, but Amazon trumps it (as it should). Others have it for lower prices, but they're all more when you add shipping.

You have to keep your eyes open. The best deal may be from someone from whom it will take several days to get it; perhaps if you're not in a hurry you'll take the savings, but getting it with 2 day shipping might be worth the extra.


----------



## Beryl

Both links took me to with Prime.


----------



## innocentfreak

Beryl said:


> Both links took me to with Prime.


When I try to check out it doesn't free Prime shipping for me.

Also I checked some of her orders from Thursday of last week and they have expected delivery of the 18th even though they have one seller with Prime.

I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon is still generating different results for different accounts. I know in the past price would very depending on if I was logged in or not and depending on what account I was logged into.


----------



## aaronwt

mikeyts said:


> They automatically show you the best in-stock price+shipping deal; all things being equal, they'll give you one of the prime-shipping ones.
> 
> For the item that you link to, I get the prime-shipping item from Amazon as the best deal, which is $219.99; Circuit City has it for the same price with free shipping, but Amazon trumps it (as it should). Others have it for lower prices, but they're all more when you add shipping.
> 
> You have to keep your eyes open. The best deal may be from someone from whom it will take several days to get it; perhaps if you're not in a hurry you'll take the savings, but getting it with 2 day shipping might be worth the extra.


Yes. It's been this way for a while. Which works out better. I would rather see the lower price than it defaulting to prime if more expensive.


----------



## mikeyts

innocentfreak said:


> I know in the past price would very depending on if I was logged in or not and depending on what account I was logged into.


You'd only get the Prime offers if you're logged into an account with an active Prime subscription.


----------



## jcthorne

Not necessarilly. I have seen Amazon default to thier own listing even when another vendor with 'Fullfillment by Amazon' has the lower price with shipping. Both are from the same comingled inventory but Amazon promotes its own listing at a higher cost over the third party supplier. 

You have to watch and look for the deals.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

I have started using Amazon Prime streaming with Google TV and think it is a good service and would like to see it on TiVoHD since I only have one Google TV box. I haven't seen anything that makes me believe it will happen.


----------



## RangerOne

Chris Gerhard said:


> I have started using Amazon Prime streaming with Google TV and think it is a good service and would like to see it on TiVoHD since I only have one Google TV box. I haven't seen anything that makes me believe it will happen.


TiVo stated on their Facebook page some time ago that they would be offering Amazon Prime streaming. TiVo did not provide a date. It's unclear whether or not the support would extend to the Series3.


----------



## Fofer

RangerOne said:


> TiVo stated on their Facebook page some time ago that they would be offering Amazon Prime streaming.


Link?

I don't think they ever categorically said they "would."

I think they said they were "working on it."

Which realistically means... precisely nothing.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

RangerOne said:


> TiVo stated on their Facebook page some time ago that they would be offering Amazon Prime streaming. TiVo did not provide a date. It's unclear whether or not the support would extend to the Series3.


I couldn't find the Facebook statement that Amazon Prime was coming to TiVo but I did see on the TiVo page that TiVo likes Amazon Instant Video, at least I think that is the indication. Of course I like Halle Berry but we aren't ever going to do anything together so I guess that doesn't mean much.


----------



## RangerOne

Here's the Facebook link:



__ https://www.facebook.com/anthony.dehart/posts/10150090042665178



And for folks who are not on Facebook:
*Anthony DeHartposted to TiVo*
Any news on if/when Tivo will support the new Amazon Prime Instant streaming service? And, just as importantly, will it be available on the Tivo HD or Series 3 platform?

*TiVo:* TiVo is working with Amazon on this. No details regarding timing are available now, but we do plan to have this available in the future.


----------



## morac

RangerOne said:


> TiVo: TiVo is working with Amazon on this. No details regarding timing are available now, but we do plan to have this available in the future.


Saying they are working on it is very different than saying they are adding it. In the past TiVo was "working on" certain things for years and then never did anything. In recent history, TiVo has been "working on" completing the HD GUI on the Premeire, yet it's still the same as it was when the Premiere was introduced.

Plus in this instance I think "working on" means they are trying to negotiate with Amazon to allow free downloading of Prime videos. Then again the TiVo implementation doesn't even allow free downloading of purchased videos, unless you initiate the download from the Amazon web site (doing so on the TiVo results in buying it again), so I have very little hope Prime streaming will come to TiVo.

If you want Amazon Prime videos, you're better off just buying a cheap Roku 2.


----------



## wmcbrine

morac said:


> Plus in this instance I think "working on" means they are trying to negotiate with Amazon to allow free downloading of Prime videos.


I see no basis for such a belief.


----------



## RangerOne

morac said:


> Saying they are working on it is very different than saying they are adding it. In the past TiVo was "working on" certain things for years and then never did anything. In recent history, TiVo has been "working on" completing the HD GUI on the Premeire, yet it's still the same as it was when the Premiere was introduced.
> 
> Plus in this instance I think "working on" means they are trying to negotiate with Amazon to allow free downloading of Prime videos. Then again the TiVo implementation doesn't even allow free downloading of purchased videos, unless you initiate the download from the Amazon web site (doing so on the TiVo results in buying it again), so I have very little hope Prime streaming will come to TiVo.
> 
> If you want Amazon Prime videos, you're better off just buying a cheap Roku 2.


Morac,

I'm skeptical too. Anytime I've had a chance to communicate with TiVo, I expressed the need for this. It would be nice to hear some other affirmations from TiVo that this is being worked on. Amazon appears to still be committed to the relationship, the TiVo is one of the featured devices for Prime.

Thanks for the suggestion but I currently own a Roku XDS and the primary thing I use for is Amazon Prime streaming.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

RangerOne said:


> Here's the Facebook link:
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/anthony.dehart/posts/10150090042665178
> 
> 
> 
> And for folks who are not on Facebook:
> *Anthony DeHartposted to TiVo*
> Any news on if/when Tivo will support the new Amazon Prime Instant streaming service? And, just as importantly, will it be available on the Tivo HD or Series 3 platform?
> 
> *TiVo:* TiVo is working with Amazon on this. No details regarding timing are available now, but we do plan to have this available in the future.


Of course that is so vague as to mean nothing, which is probably exactly what TiVo knew at that point and even now, 6 months later. It might mean nothing more than there are plans for the next TiVo to work with Amazon Prime Instant Video.


----------



## Fofer

Maybe they had an intern send an email to a CSR at Amazon?


----------



## MichaelK

It's tough to say if it would ever wind up on anything older than a premiere even if it shows up on tivo somewhere.

The lack of explanation of not updating the rhapsody app on the S2/S3 platform makes one wonder if they havn't EOL'd the 2 and 3's like they have with the 1's.....


----------



## Beryl

morac said:


> Then again the TiVo implementation doesn't even allow free downloading of purchased videos, unless you initiate the download from the Amazon web site (doing so on the TiVo results in buying it again), so I have very little hope Prime streaming will come to TiVo.


Yeppy. It is a real pain because you can't even do it with a mobile device! 


morac said:


> If you want Amazon Prime videos, you're better off just buying a cheap Roku 2.


+1
I got a Sony Media Player last year for the same reason and love it.


----------



## morac

Beryl said:


> Yeppy. It is a real pain because you can't even do it with a mobile device!


I actually complained to Amazon about that fact, since the interface is needlessly in Flash. They responded stating they were sorry about the Flash requirements and gave me credit for a free rental. 

I'd still like to be able to push videos from a mobile device, but there's little incentive to fix that since other than TiVo, there are no other devices that can be pushed to. Technically PC's running Amazon's Unbox software can be pushed to as well, but Amazon barely supports the software. They're pretty much all streaming at this point.


----------



## Ennui

I have been using the Sony DMX-NV1 for a couple years for Amazon. I also have Amazon prime but renting HD videos still costs. I think only SD videos are free???


----------



## morac

Ennui said:


> I have been using the Sony DMX-NV1 for a couple years for Amazon. I also have Amazon prime but renting HD videos still costs. I think only SD videos are free???


There are free HD Amazon Prime videos, but most are SD.

On a side note, I had a Sony DMX-NV1 that worked well with Amazon until it broke shortly after I had it for a year. The thing was very slow though. It cost twice as much as a Roku and wasn't as good so I didn't get a new one.


----------



## mikeyts

morac said:


> There are free HD Amazon Prime videos, but most are SD.


It's interesting that if you go into the Amazon movie player on your device, enter the Prime area, and look at the Top Movie list, every last one of them is in HD. Perhaps having an HD encoding is what makes them "Top" movies .


----------



## smbaker

I'm confused. I just logged into Amazon, and on the Amazon homepage is an advert for 'Amazon Instant Prime'. It says "Now, Prime users can stream over 9000 videos to more than 300 HDTVs, Blu-Ray Players, and set-top boxes".

Clicking the "300 HDTVs, Blu-Ray Players, and set-top boxes" brings me to this page: http://www.amazon.com/Instant-Video...pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1314787402&pf_rd_i=507846

At the bottom, under "Compatible DVRs", is a Premiere XL, Series 2, and THD.

Yet, if I'm reading this thread correctly, Amazon Prime is not supported on the Tivo? What am I missing?


----------



## morac

smbaker said:


> Yet, if I'm reading this thread correctly, Amazon Prime is not supported on the Tivo? What am I missing?


http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/ontv/ontv/

Look at the asterisk next to the TiVo logo and then see what it refers to.


----------



## Fofer

Also note that TiVo is the ONLY device with such an asterisk. Red-headed stepchild, indeed.


----------



## Ennui

morac said:


> There are free HD Amazon Prime videos, but most are SD.
> 
> On a side note, I had a Sony DMX-NV1 that worked well with Amazon until it broke shortly after I had it for a year. The thing was very slow though. It cost twice as much as a Roku and wasn't as good so I didn't get a new one.


Thanks for that input.

I am using it with an "N" wireless link and have not had problems with it yet. It does take a minute or less to start the movie but then streaming is OK.


----------



## mikeyts

Fofer said:


> Also note that TiVo is the ONLY device with such an asterisk. Red-headed stepchild, indeed.


Amazon Instant Video = Streaming or Download (to TiVo or PC); Amazon _Prime_ Instant Video = Streaming Only. Every other other Amazon Instant Video capable device can stream (the only other that can also download is the PC). Whensoever TiVo should create a streaming player for Amazon, their "red-headed stepchild" status will end .


----------



## smbaker

mikeyts said:


> Amazon Instant Video = Streaming or Download (to TiVo or PC); Amazon _Prime_ Instant Video = Streaming Only


Ok, this makes sense although the Amazon website is still quite misleading as there seems to be numerous places where Amazon forgot to put the asterisk (such as this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/ontv/devices) or to make the distinction between 'amazon prime instant video' and 'amazon instant video'.

From what I gather, the collection of Prime videos is far more restrictive than Instant video? Less than 10,000 of the former and greater than 100,000 for the latter.

I'd been considering Amazon Prime for some time for the shipping benefits, and Prime Instant Video might have been the tipping point that made it make sense. Looks like it falls short in a number of ways though.


----------



## Fofer

Amazon keeps adding movie content to Prime Instant. TV shows too. Clearly this is their platform/mechanism moving forward. I'd say it's the TiVo that falls short for not supporting Prime, not Amazon falling short...


----------



## RangerOne

Fofer said:


> Amazon keeps adding movie content to Prime Instant. TV shows too. Clearly this is their platform/mechanism moving forward. I'd say it's the TiVo that falls short for not supporting Prime, not Amazon falling short...


I agree that appears to be TiVo that falls short for both the Amazon and Netflix clients. It's a shame since TiVo was one of the first boxes to market with both of these services but have not introduced any real feature upgrades since.


----------



## aadam101

Fofer said:


> Also note that TiVo is the ONLY device with such an asterisk. Red-headed stepchild, indeed.


It's also the ONLY device on that list that requires a monthly subscription.......


----------



## Fofer

Yes, interesting point. TiVo's development and improvement cycle is very, very poor.

We lost Rhapsody, FrameChannel... YouTube is broken, Netflix sucks, and Amazon is incomplete. I'm just waiting for Pandora to break and then all TiVo will be good for is time shifting TV. And podcasts, kinda.


----------



## morac

Fofer said:


> Yes, interesting point. TiVo's development and improvement cycle is very, very poor.
> 
> We lost Rhapsody, FrameChannel... YouTube is broken, Netflix sucks, and Amazon is incomplete. I'm just waiting for Pandora to break and then all TiVo will be good for is time shifting TV.


Well to be fair, FrameChannel went out of business so that wasn't TiVo's fault. I agree about the state of the rest of the apps, which is TiVo's fault.


----------



## mikeyts

aadam101 said:


> It's also the ONLY device on that list that requires a monthly subscription.......


Which it required before it had _any_ of this network crap and would still require had they never added any of it. It's primary function remains timeshifting television and you pay that monthly fee for that.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

Fofer said:


> Amazon keeps adding movie content to Prime Instant. TV shows too. Clearly this is their platform/mechanism moving forward. I'd say it's the TiVo that falls short for not supporting Prime, not Amazon falling short...


You may be right but what I don't see is how it can be profitable. Clearly there is a market for streaming video from the internet but it isn't clear that there is any market of significance willing to pay a price that makes sense to provide the service. Free with Amazon Prime may not be sustainable from Amazon's standpoint. Netflix increased the price for their streaming service from free to something that might be enough to make sense and I must have seen a thousand complaints and hundreds of threats to drop the service. I have seen some reports that a large number of Netflix subscribers did drop the service. The new price for the streaming plans and disc plus streaming plans looked like a bargain to me but I am not a subscriber.

Rights owners, streaming service providers, and internet service providers all want to be paid to provide streaming and all are faced with a market that wants it for free.


----------



## morac

Chris Gerhard said:


> You may be right but what I don't see is how it can be profitable. Clearly there is a market for streaming video from the internet but it isn't clear that there is any market of significance willing to pay a price that makes sense to provide the service. Free with Amazon Prime may not be sustainable from Amazon's standpoint. Netflix increased the price for their streaming service from free to something that might be enough to make sense and I must have seen a thousand complaints and hundreds of threats to drop the service. I have seen some reports that a large number of Netflix subscribers did drop the service. The new price for the streaming plans and disc plus streaming plans looked like a bargain to me but I am not a subscriber.


Netflix is basically a one trick pony so they can be squeezed by content providers. Amazon's streaming is a small part of their business so they can afford to charge less than Netflix. Amazon has been selling cheap books, CDs, DVDs and BluRays for years before they got into digital distribution. I'm always amazed how Amazon can charge less nearly everything they offer. Virtually everything on Amazon is sold for way less than the MSRP from time to time, their lightning deals for example. Another example, new video games regularly come with a $10 to $20 credit.


----------



## RangerOne

morac said:


> Netflix is basically a one trick pony so they can be squeezed by content providers. Amazon's streaming is a small part of their business so they can afford to charge less than Netflix. Amazon has been selling cheap books, CDs, DVDs and BluRays for years before they got into digital distribution. I'm always amazed how Amazon can charge less nearly everything they offer. Virtually everything on Amazon is sold for way less than the MSRP from time to time, their lightning deals for example. Another example, new video games regularly come with a $10 to $20 credit.


The whole idea behind Prime is to get you to order more from Amazon. Once you have two-day free shipping, it removes a barrier to purchasing on Amazon. I have a Prime membership and I buy lots of things there now I would have never bought before. So, if they bundle video streaming as part of the plan, its going to generate even more sales for Amazon.

The real question is, For folks who subscribe to both, how many *quality* titles does Amazon need before people start canceling Netflix?


----------



## Chris Gerhard

RangerOne said:


> The whole idea behind Prime is to get you to order more from Amazon. Once you have two-day free shipping, it removes a barrier to purchasing on Amazon. I have a Prime membership and I buy lots of things there now I would have never bought before. So, if they bundle video streaming as part of the plan, its going to generate even more sales for Amazon.
> 
> The real question is, For folks who subscribe to both, how many *quality* titles does Amazon need before people start canceling Netflix?


Two day shipping isn't cheap and Amazon collecting $80 a year means some Prime customers are profitable, others aren't. Generating more sales doesn't mean more profits. Throwing in streaming for free, which isn't even close to free to provide, means making each customer profitable even more difficult. I don't expect free streaming to last long with Amazon Prime, a year or two at best.

After using the free streaming for a few days, I think it is a good service and see new titles are being added so I would drop Netflix for this service since it costs less and provides other benefits right now if I had Netflix.


----------



## mikeyts

Chris Gerhard said:


> Two day shipping isn't cheap and Amazon collecting $80 a year means some Prime customers are profitable, others aren't. Generating more sales doesn't mean more profits. Throwing in streaming for free, which isn't even close to free to provide, means making each customer profitable even more difficult. I don't expect free streaming to last long with Amazon Prime, a year or two at best.
> 
> After using the free streaming for a few days, I think it is a good service and see new titles are being added so I would drop Netflix for this service since it costs less and provides other benefits right now if I had Netflix.


Prime subscription is apparently working out very well for Amazon and I'm sure that 2 day shipping is extremely cheap for them and any other business which ships millions upon millions of packages a year. Most of these shippers would bend over backwards to keep their Amazon account. (Hell, if you spend $50 or more you get slow ground shipping for free). They've been doing their Prime membership thing for about 7 years now; I feel certain that they've established that it's profitable.

This is my 6th year of Prime membership. Just after I first subscribed I bought an Onkyo HTIB which was Prime shipping eligible--5 speakers, a big subwoofer and a good sized AVR in a sizeable package with a shipping weight of 106 lbs; for grins and chuckles I added $4 to get overnight shipping, even though I knew it'd probably be a couple of weeks before I got around to setting the thing up. It would certainly have cost considerably more than $80 for my year's Prime subscription + the $4 overnight fee to ship a 106 lb package overnight (I just checked and Crutchfield wants $278 for UPS Next Day Air Saver for a similar Onkyo product, a little over half the price of the thing ).

Given Prime shipping, I end up buying so much stuff from Amazon (including small stuff like common food items, cleaning supplies, toiletries, etc that I would not otherwise buy e-tail) that shipping usually works out to less than $2 an order. I shop everywhere and sometimes I find a better price+ground-shipping on something I don't mind waiting for, but the vast majority of my e-tail spending goes to Amazon.

I feel certain that Instant Prime Video is here for the long haul. Unlike Netflix, Amazon both sells discs and rents titles by streaming VOD, which I'd guess gives them a better bargaining position with the studios than Netflix. No doubt many Prime members come looking to see if something's available for no additional charge and end up renting it if it's not.

I've heard that they were trying to figure out a way to give Kindles to Prime members at one point .


----------



## aaronwt

Chris Gerhard said:


> Two day shipping isn't cheap and Amazon collecting $80 a year means some Prime customers are profitable, others aren't. Generating more sales doesn't mean more profits. Throwing in streaming for free, which isn't even close to free to provide, means making each customer profitable even more difficult. I don't expect free streaming to last long with Amazon Prime, a year or two at best.
> 
> After using the free streaming for a few days, I think it is a good service and see new titles are being added so I would drop Netflix for this service since it costs less and provides other benefits right now if I had Netflix.


I used to get 300 to 400 packages shipped to me from Amazon each year between 2006 and 2008. Many of them were BD and HD DVD Titles. I would always have one per order since I had Amazon Prime so they were shipped separatly. I'm sure they lost money on me.
I think I'll be letting my Amazon prime membership expire in November. I tried last year but only went a few months before I signed up for it again.

The streaming is a nice option as an alternative to Netflix. But I've haven't used it alot since getting my Roku2. I did watch The Andromeda Strain from Amazon streaming though since it looked much better that what Netflix was streaming. I hav eno idea how often the Netflix encodes are worse than the Amazon encodes.


----------



## jcthorne

mikeyts said:


> Which it required before it had _any_ of this network crap and would still require had they never added any of it. It's primary function remains timeshifting television and you pay that monthly fee for that.


I completely disagree.

Tivo expressly advertised the Premiere as the ONE BOX for all your OTA, Cable, Home network and internet based media needs.

The streaming video from amazon, netflix and youtube are major portions of this capability.

Tivo USED to be just a DVR. With the Premiere, that changed. So says Tivo. If they want to sell the ONE BOX solution, it needs to work as advertised. If timeshifting television signals is your primary use, fine. Its not the same for everyone. I still use that function and its what keeps me from leaving Tivo. But its NOT the only or even the primary function anymore and has not been for over a year now.


----------



## Fofer

Agreed. The Premiere is marketed and sold in a way that TiVo's own business and development cycle has proven incapable of sustaining.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

aaronwt said:


> I used to get 300 to 400 packages shipped to me from Amazon each year between 2006 and 2008. Many of them were BD and HD DVD Titles. I would always have one per order since I had Amazon Prime so they were shipped separatly. I'm sure they lost money on me.
> I think I'll be letting my Amazon prime membership expire in November. I tried last year but only went a few months before I signed up for it again.
> 
> The streaming is a nice option as an alternative to Netflix. But I've haven't used it alot since getting my Roku2. I did watch The Andromeda Strain from Amazon streaming though since it looked much better that what Netflix was streaming. I hav eno idea how often the Netflix encodes are worse than the Amazon encodes.


I have never subscribed to Netflix streaming in house and have only rarely seen it, but my opinion based on what I have seen is that Amazon Prime Instant Video does look better. I would think the encodes are the same in most cases so it may be the two services are equal. I keep on getting email or regular mail offers for a free Netflix trial although I am not sure I am entitled since I have used a free trial previously but if I am, I will go ahead and try it and see what I think at some point.


----------



## mikeyts

jcthorne said:


> I completely disagree.
> 
> Tivo expressly advertised the Premiere as the ONE BOX for all your OTA, Cable, Home network and internet based media needs.
> 
> The streaming video from amazon, netflix and youtube are major portions of this capability.
> 
> Tivo USED to be just a DVR. With the Premiere, that changed. So says Tivo. If they want to sell the ONE BOX solution, it needs to work as advertised. If timeshifting television signals is your primary use, fine. Its not the same for everyone. I still use that function and its what keeps me from leaving Tivo. But its NOT the only or even the primary function anymore and has not been for over a year now.


Okay, I'll buy that, for Premiere owners only  (and I wonder what percentage of all TiVo users they represent at this point?). I'm an S3 owner and none of the network media apps were on the device when I bought it, so it's all gratis (and worth every penny ). I never use any of that crap on TiVo because it sucks (though I used to use the Netflix player before it became a ubiquitous feature of everything and the Pandora player briefly).

I have multiple other devices which have much superior versions of the network media apps that I actually use (Netflix, Amazon, Pandora, etc) but TiVo timeshifts HDTV better than anything that I know and I've very happy with mine (for which I paid more than twice the cost of any Premiere).


----------



## djwilso

mikeyts said:


> so it's all gratis (and worth every penny )


Ha, well said. I do like the Pandora app on my S3 though. It is, by far, the best of the bunch.


----------



## Fofer

Best of the bunch of what? Third party services on the TiVo? Sure.

not the best Pandora client though... It's better on nearly every box.


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## mikeyts

Like Netflix, Pandora has become nearly ubiquitous. It's not on Xbox or PS3 (they both have other net radio services but why would I run either of those two power hogs just to listen to music???), but it's on my Roku 2, my Panasonic BD player (both very nice), TiVo S3 and my Onkyo AVR (the AVR is the crudest of the GUIs, but it can play 6 or 7 other net radio services, like Rhapsody, Napster, Slacker and MediaFly). I can also run Pandora on this PC (connected to the TV and AVR), my Android pad and Android phone.


----------



## mikeyts

Chris Gerhard said:


> I have never subscribed to Netflix streaming in house and have only rarely seen it, but my opinion based on what I have seen is that Amazon Prime Instant Video does look better. I would think the encodes are the same in most cases so it may be the two services are equal.


That may be true for SD, but I don't think that is for HD encodings. (I'm certain that the encodings are _never_ the same; the IP holders may provide Netflix and and Amazon with the same sources for various titles, but each company does their own encoding). Since the native PS3 app shipped last fall, Netflix has had 1080p encodings available (only for the PS3 and Roku 2 for the moment) and many of them are excellent, particularly given that they're encoded at 5.1 Mbps, including sound.

A guy posted some HDMI screen-caps of frames of BDs and the corresponding frames of 1080p Netflix streams played on the PS3 (see his thread here). Here are some direct links to those shots for comparison (see the paragraph at the end of the links for a good method for making those comparisons):


Spoiler



From _Outbreak_ (VUDU HDX frame on the bottom):


Code:


http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/5916/outbreak03bd.png

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8778/outbreak03nf.png

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6306/outbreak03vd.png

From _Lost_, Season 1, Episode 1:


Code:


http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9571/lostbd.png

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/870/lostnf.png

And a couple from _The Matrix Revolutions_:


Code:


http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/447/matrix301hd.png

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8634/matrix301nf.png

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1197/matrix30d.png

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4848/matrix302nf.png

To compare, load each pair of pictures into separate tabs in a browser window and blow the window up to fill the screen with F11 (I use Chrome, because it does fullscreen best). Switch between them (instantaneously) using Ctrl-Tab. I've done this comparison on this 46" Mitsubishi 1080p LCD panel (what I use as the monitor for this PC) and the difference is generally pretty subtle.


Netflix's DD+ surround, when bitstreamed to a AVR which can decode it by a device which can do that (BDT110, Roku 2, possibly others) sounds pretty damn good as well.


----------



## aadam101

mikeyts said:


> That's not true. Amazon dates back to series 2 units. It was called Amazon Unbox and began in 2006 I believe.
> 
> Tivo charges a fee for use of the Amazon/Netflix/Pandora apps. If they were truly free I might give them a break. Tivo has chosen to make them not free. If you stop paying for the Tivo service, the apps stop working.
> 
> What's fair is fair. If I'm going to pay to use these apps I expect them to be BETTER than what the competition is offering WITHOUT A SUBSCRIPTION. At the very least they should be as good.....


----------



## mikeyts

aadam101 said:


> That's not true. Amazon dates back to series 2 units. It was called Amazon Unbox and began in 2006 I believe.


That is absolutely, entirely false. I know that for reasons that I am by agreement disallowed to divulge (though you may guess what those reasons are ). While it is true that Unbox began in 2006, the player for TiVo launched several months later (see this Amazon PR from 09/06 and this TiVo PR from 03/07). The Amazon Unbox app launched on Series2 and Series3 simultaneously. Neither it or any other of the network media apps was available on my Series3 when I bought it and I have lifetime service (there might have been an app for one of the picture sharing services but that's it; even TiVoCast, which'd been on the Series 2 since mid 2006--I think--didn't come to the Series3 until the end of February 2007--see this). Never asked for the Amazon app, wasn't told to expect it, never particularly wanted it and certainly never paid anything extra to get it, though I have used it some in the past.



> What's fair is fair. If I'm going to pay to use these apps I expect them to be BETTER than what the competition is offering WITHOUT A SUBSCRIPTION. At the very least they should be as good.....


As the old folks used to tell me when I was a child, "'Fair' is what you pay to get on the bus" , and your definition of what's fair certainly is not binding on TiVo. Go right ahead and consider yourself to be paying for the apps (and unless they were on your TiVo when you bought it, we'll agree to disagree about that); go ahead and stew in righteous expectations that the apps should be better than they are. I doubt that those expectations are gonna get you anywhere. You will nowhere find any promise from TiVo that their network media apps be better than versions of the same which appear on non-subscription platforms.

It's possible that they will create a streaming Amazon player with which to view Amazon Prime Instant Video, but it's a non-trivial proposition. I wouldn't hold my breath while waiting for it.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

aadam101 said:


> What's fair is fair. If I'm going to pay to use these apps I expect them to be BETTER than what the competition is offering WITHOUT A SUBSCRIPTION. At the very least they should be as good.....


That is an unfair assessment in my opinion. TiVo hardware is sold at a loss and from the TiVo business perspective the subscription fee hopefully makes up for the loss and provides a profit. TiVo is still primarily a DVR despite what the whiners like to say and the subscription fee covers the expense to provide guide data, application development and software.

Unfortunately TiVo can't operate at a profit by selling hardware at a loss and providing service and that business plan is doomed to failure now and forever. The one hope of licensing TiVo technology to make the company work is still coming up short and I don't know if that solution ever solves the problem or not, the answer probably will be known after the big lawsuits are settled.

The TiVo Premiere is called a smart DVR, not an internet device with DVR functions. I don't have one yet but if I did, I would not expect it to be better at internet access applications because I was paying a monthly fee. Is there a DVR from another company that does as much as this one as well as this one?

If Google TV catches on and ultimately works like it was intended, it might be the next TiVo DVR could be built with the horsepower necessary to run that service.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

Fofer said:


> Best of the bunch of what? Third party services on the TiVo? Sure.
> 
> not the best Pandora client though... It's better on nearly every box.


I have Pandora on several devices, Blu-ray players, Google TV and on the TiVoHD. LG BD390, Samsung BD-P2550 and Logitech Revue all run Pandora and I can't think of any reason I should like the other boxes better than my TiVoHD for Pandora.


----------



## Fofer

Oh, well, personally, I think it's ugly.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

mikeyts said:


> Prime subscription is apparently working out very well for Amazon and I'm sure that 2 day shipping is extremely cheap for them and any other business which ships millions upon millions of packages a year. Most of these shippers would bend over backwards to keep their Amazon account. (Hell, if you spend $50 or more you get slow ground shipping for free). They've been doing their Prime membership thing for about 7 years now; I feel certain that they've established that it's profitable.
> 
> This is my 6th year of Prime membership. Just after I first subscribed I bought an Onkyo HTIB which was Prime shipping eligible--5 speakers, a big subwoofer and a good sized AVR in a sizeable package with a shipping weight of 106 lbs; for grins and chuckles I added $4 to get overnight shipping, even though I knew it'd probably be a couple of weeks before I got around to setting the thing up. It would certainly have cost considerably more than $80 for my year's Prime subscription + the $4 overnight fee to ship a 106 lb package overnight (I just checked and Crutchfield wants $278 for UPS Next Day Air Saver for a similar Onkyo product, a little over half the price of the thing ).
> 
> Given Prime shipping, I end up buying so much stuff from Amazon (including small stuff like common food items, cleaning supplies, toiletries, etc that I would not otherwise buy e-tail) that shipping usually works out to less than $2 an order. I shop everywhere and sometimes I find a better price+ground-shipping on something I don't mind waiting for, but the vast majority of my e-tail spending goes to Amazon.
> 
> I feel certain that Instant Prime Video is here for the long haul. Unlike Netflix, Amazon both sells discs and rents titles by streaming VOD, which I'd guess gives them a better bargaining position with the studios than Netflix. No doubt many Prime members come looking to see if something's available for no additional charge and end up renting it if it's not.
> 
> I've heard that they were trying to figure out a way to give Kindles to Prime members at one point .


If you have any information that shows how you came to your conclusion that shippers are bending over backwards to keep Amazon's business and Amazon is able to ship with 2-day delivery at such a low price to make a profit on an $80 annual fee, I would like to read about it. It is my understanding that large quantity shippers like Amazon do get a discount, maybe 20% or so depending on service, which of course is a big discount.

I believe there is zero chance the $80 annual fee covers the shipping cost provided for that fee and whether or not Prime is profitable to Amazon depends on whether or not the Prime customer is purchasing products that are profitable enough to justify the hit on the shipping cost. Prime definitely steers customers toward purchasing from Amazon and I do believe overall, for most customers, Amazon was doing alright before the free streaming. I will be very surprised if that plan works out well for Amazon at the $80 annual fee level. In fact, I don't know how any of these unlimited streaming business plans can fly at the prices consumers are expecting. Netflix had to increase the fees and I would expect another Netflix increase next year.


----------



## jcthorne

Chris Gerhard said:


> If you have any information that shows how you came to your conclusion that shippers are bending over backwards to keep Amazon's business and Amazon is able to ship with 2-day delivery at such a low price to make a profit on an $80 annual fee, I would like to read about it. It is my understanding that large quantity shippers like Amazon do get a discount, maybe 20% or so depending on service, which of course is a big discount.


Amazon is getting better than that. I cannot answer the profitability part but I can say they are paying far less for 2nd day shipping than you think. In fact, they usually do not pay for 2nd day air at all. Amazon leverages UPS and other carrier's automated routing systems and inventory at multiple warehouses to achieve 2nd day delivery at ground transport cost in most cases. Not all but quite a large number.

Next, the discount they do get is far larger than 20%. I know because I am a Amazon seller and inbound inventory for 'Fulfillment by Amazon' can be shipped to them at THIER rates using prepaid labels. What costs me, with my company 15% discount 11.80 to ship, costs Amazon 5.85. Thats in the range of 50%.

I have watched Amazon for my own shipments. Thier automated shipping selection system is very sophisticated. They also maintain inventory at quite a number of non-amazon sites, ie selling and shipping inventory direct from some of thier larger vendor's warehouses. I know they do this for auto parts from the Ford warehouse here in Houston.


----------



## mikeyts

Chris Gerhard said:


> If you have any information that shows how you came to your conclusion that shippers are bending over backwards to keep Amazon's business and Amazon is able to ship with 2-day delivery at such a low price to make a profit on an $80 annual fee, I would like to read about it.


Well, here's something, from an NYT article:


> According to the Distribution Management Group, *air shipping prices for big retailers are about 70 percent less than for a small company*. Shipping at Amazon costs about 4 percent of sales, and Amazon loses money on it because it offers marketing benefits, said Aaron Kessler, an e-commerce analyst at the research firm ThinkEquity. But shipping at small sites usually costs about 35 percent of sales, said Mr. Schwake, the retail adviser.


Even paying 30% of what small shippers do (who themselves must pay significantly less than you or I at a shipping store), the analysis is that they lose money on it (which is born out by their stock reports--in 2010, they apparently spent $1.3B more on shipping than they were paid for it). But I didn't claim that they profited on shipping.

Amazon has been offering Prime Shipping for $80/year for seven years now, added Prime Instant Video to that and plan to add even more incentives to the Prime program. From an interview with Jeff Bezos with _The Consumerist_ blog three months back:


> *CONSUMERIST*: So, the whole streaming thing. Are you guys taking on Netflix?
> 
> *BEZOS*: Well, what we're trying to do is... we have a program called Amazon Prime where you pay a flat fee per year, $79 in the U.S. It's a global program and it's different in every country. You pay $79 in the U.S. and then you get unlimited 2-day shipping for free. And that's been an incredibly popular program. We launched it seven years ago now? Something like that. And it has gotten to be of substantial scale. People enjoy it. Renewal rates are extremely high. And so we wanted to start to add as people transition from buying DVD to streaming movies and television shows, we wanted to provide some value for Amazon Prime members in that regard. So we left the fee at $79 a year and started adding, and will continue to add... so we're doing deals with, you know, the movie studios and the television networks and so on...
> 
> *CONSUMERIST*: So Prime members can sort of expect that there will be more value added to this program...it started with shipping and it's just going to keep going.
> 
> *BEZOS*: Yeah. And so Prime Instant Video is a natural extension of that. So it's unlimited... just like Prime shipping is unlimited 2-day shipping...this is unlimited instant streaming. And we're continuing to add to our selection. There are a bunch of things we are not ready to announce yet, but they are on the horizon in terms of adding content to [Prime] and so on.


Despite all of this spending on Prime and net losses on shipping (which I'm sure just gets lumped into operating costs on their balance sheets and taxes), Amazon continues to turn a profit and pay dividends on their stock. I think that their business plan works and will probably continue to work, unless something should change drastically.


----------



## aadam101

Chris Gerhard said:


> The TiVo Premiere is called a smart DVR, not an internet device with DVR functions.


You are right. The problem is that all of the things that make it "smart" are "dumber" than pretty much every other set top box.


----------



## seattlewendell

mikeyts said:


> Amazon continues to turn a profit and pay dividends on their stock. I think that they're business plan works and will probably continue to work, unless something should change drastically.


Amazon does not pay dividends on their stock.


----------



## mikeyts

seattlewendell said:


> Amazon does not pay dividends on their stock.


Sorry--I was scanning their 2010 report and thought I read a mention of dividends. I must have been mistaken. I have corrected it .


----------



## MichaelK

I am not whining and I dont own a premier (yet).



Chris Gerhard said:


> ... TiVo is still primarily a DVR despite what the whiners like to say and the subscription fee covers the expense to provide guide data, application development and software. ..





Chris Gerhard said:


> ...
> The TiVo Premiere is called a smart DVR, not an internet device with DVR functions. I don't have one yet but if I did, I would not expect it to be better at internet access applications because I was paying a monthly fee. Is there a DVR from another company that does as much as this one as well as this one?
> ....





aadam101 said:


> You are right. The problem is that all of the things that make it "smart" are "dumber" than pretty much every other set top box.


BUT they still market it as the "one box". 
http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/get-started/one-box/

and THEY compare themselves to the "dumb competition" by holding out netflix and the like in the comparison chart on their own 'what is tivo' page:
http://www.tivo.com/what-is-tivo/tivo-is/index.html

THEY clearly imply that the web stuff should work- not the "whiners".

I dont think it needs to be perfect or anything or even the best of all the internet connect set top boxes- but they themselves hold it out as MORE than "just a dvr" and so I'd expect it to be more than just tiny bit better than a dumb dvr. Just because there's not a DVR that does it better doesn't absolve them of doing what they say they will do. It's tough to just ignore that they sell it as an internet device- a smart dvr with internet apps.

some bits from the first link:


> It's your movie box
> A broadband-connected TiVo Premiere gives you access to the world's largest on-demand video store from Netflix, Amazon Instant Video, BLOCKBUSTER On Demand®, and Hulu Plus™.





> It's your web box
> Premiere gives you thousands more entertainment possibilities with streaming web videos right to your TV. You'll add YouTube and millions of web videos, movies and TV shows to your existing cable lineup.





> It's your music box
> Whether you're jamming to your computer's music library or streaming online songs through Pandora® and Rhapsody®, Premiere uses your TV's sound system to bring your music to life. You can even download thousands of free music videos right to My Shows. Premiere is music to your ears.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

And from the bits you quoted what statements are wrong? I would say buy the competion if it is better and a better deal, I am not aware of a DVR that works as well and certainly not aware of one that includes internet applications that work as well but if you are, I can understand the basis for the complaints.


----------



## morac

Other than Rhapsody (which is currently broken), nothing is wrong with the statements. They do leave a lot out, whether intentionally or not. For example YouTube is all SD, Amazon doesn't support prime, a number of web videos haven't been updated in years, etc.

My take on the Premiere, is that rather it being the "one box to rule them all" as TiVo puts it, it's a "Jack of all trades, master of none" box. Yes it does all the things it says it does, but basically the bare minimum to be consider working.

The "Premiere" part of the Premiere is supposed to be the search and browse interface, making it easier to find programs where ever they might be. That part usually works, though not always.


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## Fofer

And the search and browse interface is tied to the buggy, slow, inconsistent and poorly conceived HD interface... so... yeah. I'm sticking with the SD interface (and the iPad app) instead.


----------



## Johncv

mikeyts said:


> Prime subscription is apparently working out very well for Amazon and I'm sure that 2 day shipping is extremely cheap for them and any other business which ships millions upon millions of packages a year. Most of these shippers would bend over backwards to keep their Amazon account. (Hell, if you spend $50 or more you get slow ground shipping for free). They've been doing their Prime membership thing for about 7 years now; I feel certain that they've established that it's profitable.
> 
> This is my 6th year of Prime membership. Just after I first subscribed I bought an Onkyo HTIB which was Prime shipping eligible--5 speakers, a big subwoofer and a good sized AVR in a sizeable package with a shipping weight of 106 lbs; for grins and chuckles I added $4 to get overnight shipping, even though I knew it'd probably be a couple of weeks before I got around to setting the thing up. It would certainly have cost considerably more than $80 for my year's Prime subscription + the $4 overnight fee to ship a 106 lb package overnight (I just checked and Crutchfield wants $278 for UPS Next Day Air Saver for a similar Onkyo product, a little over half the price of the thing ).
> 
> Given Prime shipping, I end up buying so much stuff from Amazon (including small stuff like common food items, cleaning supplies, toiletries, etc that I would not otherwise buy e-tail) that shipping usually works out to less than $2 an order. I shop everywhere and sometimes I find a better price+ground-shipping on something I don't mind waiting for, but the vast majority of my e-tail spending goes to Amazon.
> 
> I feel certain that Instant Prime Video is here for the long haul. Unlike Netflix, Amazon both sells discs and rents titles by streaming VOD, which I'd guess gives them a better bargaining position with the studios than Netflix. No doubt many Prime members come looking to see if something's available for no additional charge and end up renting it if it's not.
> 
> I've heard that they were trying to figure out a way to give Kindles to Prime members at one point .


I also purchase Onkyo HTIB and I had $400.00 in Amazon points to boot. Great deal with Primal shipping.


----------



## aadam101

morac said:


> My take on the Premiere, is that rather it being the "one box to rule them all" as TiVo puts it, it's a "Jack of all trades, master of none" box. Yes it does all the things it says it does, but basically the bare minimum to be consider working.


This is the perfect description of Tivo. You should really send this over to their marketing department. This is exactly what should be written on their website.



morac said:


> The "Premiere" part of the Premiere is supposed to be the search and browse interface, making it easier to find programs where ever they might be. That part usually works, though not always.


When I think of "Premiere", I think of a PREMIUM product. What we get is a rather expensive product (which I'm not even sure what the price is) that is *mediocre* at best

I'm sick and tired of everyone telling me there is not better option, cable company DVR's suck etc. I bought my first Tivo 10 years ago this month. I bought it because they were truly a revolutionary company who changed TV for the better. I think their old slogan was "TV, your way." They had it right. From the moment my Tivo was up and running, I can honestly say that no other device has changed my life the way Tivo has. I have tons of gadgets around the house and none have ever given me the feeling that Tivo did that very first day. It was pure bliss.

Tivo needs to make that happen again. They have make Tivo a PREMIUM product again.

They don't even really need to do that much.

1. Include Wifi in the box.
2. Update all of the menu screens to HD.
3. Update (and then provide regular updates to) the Netflix, Amazon, Pandora, etc. apps. 
4. Dump the Blockbuster app. Blockbuster is a thing of the past and something we are all better off forgetting. There is nothing on it that Amazon doesn't have anyway.
5. Provide a Hulu app with a Tivo interface
6. Work with cable providers to allow us to access On Demand content (This is probably the hardest of all)

If they really can't do these things then maybe it's time for someone to buy them.


----------



## cheerdude

What's consider the "best" device that does Prime Streaming? This coming from someone that already has a TiVo, Apple TV & a Blu-Ray player.


----------



## Wil

cheerdude said:


> What's consider the "best" device that does Prime Streaming? This coming from someone that already has a TiVo, Apple TV & a Blu-Ray player.


I have a Mac Mini playing all my networked video files to my HiDef screen anyway, so I tried it out with the Amazon Prime stuff and it worked fine. I have no desire to buy anything else. I'm sure it's not the best, but I had it all set up and ready to go and it did what was needed.


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## Fofer

The TiVo and AppleTV doesn't do Prime Instant Streaming at all. Some Blu-Ray players do (like my Sony.) The Roku does it... and so does the HP TouchPad (via the Flash-capable web browser,) now on firesale starting at $99.


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## Chris Gerhard

morac said:


> Other than Rhapsody (which is currently broken), nothing is wrong with the statements. They do leave a lot out, whether intentionally or not. For example YouTube is all SD, Amazon doesn't support prime, a number of web videos haven't been updated in years, etc..


Rhapsody made the change that caused the breakage and TiVo is apparently planning a quick fix, we will see if that is successful but I expect it to be. So nothing is wrong with the statements but the TiVo marketing statements don't point out things the DVR can't do, only what it can do. That is all I ever ask for, anything that isn't listed as an included feature is assumed to be absent.

I requested someone point out a DVR with internet applications that works better and apparently nobody has anything to offer. I don't think that product exists. The fact people that want the Premiere to be as good as or better than dedicated boxes, intended specifically for internet applications is an unreasonable expectation in my opinion.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

cheerdude said:


> What's consider the "best" device that does Prime Streaming? This coming from someone that already has a TiVo, Apple TV & a Blu-Ray player.


I have not seen any comparison that makes it clear which device is best but I can comment on the only device I own that handles Amazon Prime Instant Video, the Logitech Revue Google TV since I own it and use it. I have watched a few movies and TV episodes and have about 50 videos from the service in my queue now and I think it works great. I can't see how any other device could work better for the service.

I also think it is a good product to use in conjunction with a TiVo since it has HDMI pass through and some Logitech Harmony commands built in to control a TiVo if that is the intended set up. It also integrates programs from the TiVo with internet programs in a format which some might find helpful. I am using it with my unsubscribed TiVo and it provides some program information and guide information that is useful. For instance I can see what is on now on the Revue, select the TV program I want to watch and the Revue will change the TiVo channel and change the source for that HDMI input from the Google TV to the TiVo. It makes channel surfing possible with an unsubscribed TiVo which doesn't have program information on its own and can't be used well for that purpose on its own. Of course the two devices work better together if the TiVo does have a subscription.


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## RangerOne

cheerdude said:


> What's consider the "best" device that does Prime Streaming? This coming from someone that already has a TiVo, Apple TV & a Blu-Ray player.


The Roku is the best hands down. There are some Amazon clients out there on blu-ray but their missing features like Dolby Digital. One of the blu-ray players I tested had a buggy Amazon client.


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## jcthorne

Since the Amazon Prime streaming video does not work on the tivo, is there any way for a pc to capture the video to a file and then rework that to a format tivo can use?


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## morac

Chris Gerhard said:


> I requested someone point out a DVR with internet applications that works better and apparently nobody has anything to offer. I don't think that product exists. The fact people that want the Premiere to be as good as or better than dedicated boxes, intended specifically for internet applications is an unreasonable expectation in my opinion.


Yes TiVo is the best DVR with Internet applications but that's because it's the best DVR out there (virtually the only retail DVR out there). It's just that there are better implementations for nearly everything the Premiere does save DVR functionality.

For example, I'd rather use the PS3 version of Netflix because of the 1080p and 5.1 audio support. Similarly the PS3's version of Hulu Plus is faster and it displays folders for shows on the queue screen instead of one giant list of episodes all mashed together on one screen like the Premiere. I even prefer my iPad's YouTube implementation to the Premiere since the former can display videos in HD.

So the I don't use most of the functionality of the Premiere simply because it's not as good as other devices I have. Ironically Amazon is better on the TiVo since the resolution is a lot better (1080p/24 vs 720p for most streaming devices). Since the TiVo implementation downloads rather than streams, the bit rate for Amazon videos is around 6 Mbps. Of course this is what is causing the whole issue with Prime streaming.


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## shwru980r

Tivo is a high end consumer electronics product with a discriminating customer base. If Tivo wasn't committed to making their streaming applications at least as good as the competition, they should not have added them to the Tivo in the first place. Tivo has generated bad will with many customers and damaged their brand image. Tivo will never be a one box solution, because the customer has to change inputs to watch a Bluray or a DVD, and many of those devices have better streaming applications than Tivo.


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## Fofer

The fact that a $60 Roku or a $80 Blu-Ray or a $90 AppleTV (with no monthly fees) have way, way better streaming applications than a TiVo Premiere does is the issue here. Their apps look and work better. Yes, the TiVo is a very good DVR (sadly, with an aging, still-incomplete UI.) Every one of its internet apps are tacked on as an afterthought though, and it's painfully obvious TiVo doesn't have the resources (or skill) to keep them nicely integrated and up-to-date. As the world continues to move away from broadcast television over cableTV and towards internet downloading and streaming, the TiVo box just continues to grow more and more irrelevant...


----------



## mikeyts

RangerOne said:


> The Roku is the best hands down. There are some Amazon clients out there on blu-ray but their missing features like Dolby Digital. One of the blu-ray players I tested had a buggy Amazon client.


I like the player in the Viera Cast suite of the Panasonic DMP-BDTx10 3D BD players. That one app is the entire reason that I bought the BDT110; after Prime Instant Video was announced, I went looking for a good embedded player for it. I tried it and the Roku XD and sent the Roku back. (On the Roku you couldn't easily tell that a title in the Prime Eligible list had an HD encoding--it's improved since; the BDx10s have a VUDU player, which I also liked). The BDTx10s' Amazon app plays the DD5.1 soundtracks as well.

I now have the Roku 2 XS (couldn't resist its 1080p/5.1/subtitle-capable Netflix player) and they're about equal, though I probably prefer the BDTx10's UI. That slow, hokey scrolling-V presentation of title lists on the Roku is annoying; gimmicky, screen-real-estate-squandering UI graphics for its own sake. Its TV-series episode selection mechanism is particularly noisome, giving you a line of number-marked boxes to scroll through horizontally, revealing the title and episode description for the one in the center (replacing the number with a thumbnail shot of a scene from the episode ); the BDTx10's player shows you the entire season's list of episode titles at a glance.


----------



## RangerOne

mikeyts said:


> I like the player in the Viera Cast suite of the Panasonic DMP-BDTx10 3D BD players. That one app is the entire reason that I bought the BDT110; after Prime Instant Video was announced, I went looking for a good embedded player for it. I tried it and the Roku XD and sent the Roku back. (On the Roku you couldn't easily tell that a title in the Prime Eligible list had an HD encoding--it's improved since; the BDx10s have a VUDU player, which I also liked). The BDTx10s' Amazon app plays the DD5.1 soundtracks as well.
> 
> I now have the Roku 2 XS (couldn't resist its 1080p/5.1/subtitle-capable Netflix player) and they're about equal, though I probably prefer the BDTx10's UI. That slow, hokey scrolling-V presentation of title lists on the Roku is annoying; gimmicky, screen-real-estate-squandering UI graphics for its own sake. Its TV-series episode selection mechanism is particularly noisome, giving you a line of number-marked boxes to scroll through horizontally, revealing the title and episode description for the one in the center (replacing the number with a thumbnail shot of a scene from the episode ); the BDTx10's player shows you the entire season's list of episode titles at a glance.


Yes, I like the look of Panasonic's interface as well. The LG has a nice one too. However, my experience was that the Roku's interface was more responsive when browsing titles. The Roku had the three second replay button which the Panasonic & LG did not have. In addition, the Roku has a "Special Deals" section which highlighted the free content.

I was also not successful getting Dolby Digital to play on the Panasonic or LG for Amazon via the optical audio port. Other services such as Netfix did output DD on the Panasonic with no problem. So, I don't think it was configuration problem with the receiver or the player. Could be fixed by now. Any insight Mike?


----------



## mikeyts

RangerOne said:


> I was also not successful getting Dolby Digital to play on the Panasonic or LG for Amazon via the optical audio port. Other services such as Netfix did output DD on the Panasonic with no problem. So, I don't think it was configuration problem with the receiver or the player. Could be fixed by now. Any insight Mike?


I take it back--the BDT110's Amazon player does not seem to play AC-3 sound. Sorry for the misinformation. I can't believe I didn't notice that before sending the Roku XD back.

The Roku 2 XS wins again !


----------



## CoxInPHX

Chris Gerhard said:


> I have not seen any comparison that makes it clear which device is best but I can comment on the only device I own that handles Amazon Prime Instant Video, the Logitech Revue Google TV since I own it and use it. I have watched a few movies and TV episodes and have about 50 videos from the service in my queue now and I think it works great. I can't see how any other device could work better for the service.
> 
> I also think it is a good product to use in conjunction with a TiVo since it has HDMI pass through and some Logitech Harmony commands built in to control a TiVo if that is the intended set up. It also integrates programs from the TiVo with internet programs in a format which some might find helpful. I am using it with my unsubscribed TiVo and it provides some program information and guide information that is useful. For instance I can see what is on now on the Revue, select the TV program I want to watch and the Revue will change the TiVo channel and change the source for that HDMI input from the Google TV to the TiVo. It makes channel surfing possible with an unsubscribed TiVo which doesn't have program information on its own and can't be used well for that purpose on its own. Of course the two devices work better together if the TiVo does have a subscription.


Interesting you mentioned the Logitech Revue Companion Box with Google TV and using it with the TiVo. Just a few days ago I read a posting by a Moxi owner that said "Google TV... two words.. GET IT". For those that don't know about the Moxi DVR it only has Internet Apps through a PC running PlayOn. But it does have very nice HD Menus. Too bad Arris/Moxi has not provided any updates in well over a year. It could have been a real competitor to TiVo. Arris has taken the Moxi interface and is marketing to MSOs as a 6-Tuner Whole Home Gateway, complete with DOCSIS 3 eMTA and MoCA. The only MSOs to bite so far have been BendBroadband in Oregon and Shaw Cable in Canada.


----------



## MichaelK

Chris Gerhard said:


> ...
> 
> I requested someone point out a DVR with internet applications that works better and apparently nobody has anything to offer. I don't think that product exists. The fact people that want the Premiere to be as good as or better than dedicated boxes, intended specifically for internet applications is an unreasonable expectation in my opinion.


So your argument basically boils down to all the dvrs suck more than TiVo so they are fine?

To me that's a pretty low benchmark to set for any company. But I guess it works well for many industries so maybe it's fine for tivo.

My gut is I'd prefer to excel. But actually accuweather has made a pretty penny just 'sucking less then all the rest'. So maybe it is a wise move. I suppose cellular carriers try to build their networks similarly- none really try for perfect coverage but rather gut enoughor maybe in verizons case better than the rest.

(Accuweather strives not to forcast the correct info but rather to be less wrong. If they predict the temp to be 80 and everyone else says 76 they actually just publically say 77. They play the odds. They'll just try to always be closer to correct even if never correct themselves.)


----------



## aaronwt

CoxInPHX said:


> Interesting you mentioned the Logitech Revue Companion Box with Google TV and using it with the TiVo. Just a few days ago I read a posting by a Moxi owner that said "Google TV... two words.. GET IT". For those that don't know about the Moxi DVR it only has Internet Apps through a PC running PlayOn. But it does have very nice HD Menus. Too bad Arris/Moxi has not provided any updates in well over a year. It could have been a real competitor to TiVo. Arris has taken the Moxi interface and is marketing to MSOs as a 6-Tuner Whole Home Gateway, complete with DOCSIS 3 eMTA and MoCA. The only MSOs to bite so far have been BendBroadband in Oregon and Shaw Cable in Canada.


The Revue with the TiVo doesn't do too much. My two words would be "trash it".
The Revue would be better if used with a regular cable STB, but not with the TiVo since the capabilities are much better for finding programs with the TiVo than the Revue.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

MichaelK said:


> So your argument basically boils down to all the dvrs suck more than TiVo so they are fine?
> 
> To me that's a pretty low benchmark to set for any company. But I guess it works well for many industries so maybe it's fine for tivo.
> 
> My gut is I'd prefer to excel. But actually accuweather has made a pretty penny just 'sucking less then all the rest'. So maybe it is a wise move. I suppose cellular carriers try to build their networks similarly- none really try for perfect coverage but rather gut enoughor maybe in verizons case better than the rest.
> 
> (Accuweather strives not to forcast the correct info but rather to be less wrong. If they predict the temp to be 80 and everyone else says 76 they actually just publically say 77. They play the odds. They'll just try to always be closer to correct even if never correct themselves.)


No, I have never said anything remotely comparable, in fact I am not ever among the group whining about TiVo. I think TiVo is the best DVR and I have used several and able to make all of them work to my satisfaction, TiVo is best among a group of products that work fine in general is how I see it. The constant whining about not getting more from a company that sells products at a huge loss trying to recoup the loss and make a profit from a seliing the service seems silly to me since there is nothing better. The attitude of nobody wanting to pay much for the service but expecting a lot is what I see at this forum all of the time.

My point was if some company is offering something better, go buy it, I am grateful to get what I have at the price paid and haven't seen anything close at any price. As I stated, I expected nobody to respond with anything better, just more whining about what this product does.


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## aadam101

Chris Gerhard said:


> The constant whining about not getting more from a company that sells products at a huge loss trying to recoup the loss and make a profit from a seliing the service seems silly to me since there is nothing better.


I don't care if they are selling at a loss. That's not my problem. It's theirs. They offer a service that I pay a subscription for. They should be providing the BEST possible experience for the subscription payer. They have FAILED miserably in that area over the past few years.

They are the ONLY device that charges a subscription to use the Amazon app.
They are the ONLY device that does NOT offer Prime streaming.

Why shouldn't people complain?


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## Beryl

aadam101 said:


> They are the ONLY device that charges a subscription to use the Amazon app.
> They are the ONLY device that does NOT offer Prime streaming.
> 
> Why shouldn't people complain?


I totally agree. If the cable companies add Amazon Prime Streaming (and other things) to their DVRs, it will be a problem for TiVo. I miss fearnet.com on my TiVo. They really need to expand their service since they charge a subscription.


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## atmuscarella

Beryl said:


> I totally agree. If the cable companies add Amazon Prime Streaming (and other things) to their DVRs, it will be a problem for TiVo. I miss fearnet.com on my TiVo. They really need to expand their service since they charge a subscription.


The chances of any cable/satellite company adding a competitors service to their equipment is *ZERO*.

Currently general streaming services are being added to many devices. TiVo is the only one adding them to a DVR and so far is only doing a far to poor job of it. I have no idea why they are failing at this but no one should be buying a TiVo to use streaming services. A TiVo should only be purchased as a DVR.

The best solution for streaming service appears to be stand alone streaming devices like the Roku and Boxee Box.

Thanks,


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## Fofer

Beryl said:


> I totally agree. If the cable companies add Amazon Prime Streaming (and other things) to their DVRs, it will be a problem for TiVo. I miss fearnet.com on my TiVo. They really need to expand their service since they charge a subscription.


When/how did fearnet.com ever work on a TiVo?


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## Fofer

atmuscarella said:


> Currently general streaming services are being added to many devices. TiVo is the only one adding them to a DVR and so far is only doing a far to poor job of it. I have no idea why they are failing at this but no one should be buying a TiVo to use streaming services. A TiVo should only be purchased as a DVR.
> 
> The best solution for streaming service appears to be stand alone streaming devices like the Roku and Boxee Box.


We understand this. We are complaining that a separate stand alone streaming box is even necessary, when TiVo is touting it's "one box" as a means to consolidate it all. TiVo is failing at delivering their promises. We are TiVo customers, so we are complaining.


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## Chris Gerhard

aadam101 said:


> I don't care if they are selling at a loss. That's not my problem. It's theirs. They offer a service that I pay a subscription for. They should be providing the BEST possible experience for the subscription payer. They have FAILED miserably in that area over the past few years.
> 
> They are the ONLY device that charges a subscription to use the Amazon app.
> They are the ONLY device that does NOT offer Prime streaming.
> 
> Why shouldn't people complain?


Ha ha, buy the product that does what you want, don't whine about one that doesn't. This is a DVR with some added internet uses, I find it works great for my needs, you obviously disagree and want to whine about it. I would just use something different if this product didn't suit my needs.


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## Fofer

And you want to whine about the whining. What's the difference? I would just go to a different forum where the tone and conversation is different if the ones here don't agree with you.


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## Chris Gerhard

Fofer said:


> And you want to whine about the whining. What's the difference? I would just go to a different forum where the tone and conversation is different if the ones here don't agree with you.


No, I am not whining about the whining, I am laughing about the whining while using products that meet my needs. All of this whining about TiVo not being the perfect DVR and the perfect internet entertainment box, all-in-one, while no such product exists anywhere is funny to me. I believe it doesn't exist because there is no way to build this box and provide service for this box at a price that the market will pay. If TiVo makes it, the same group of whiners will whine about the price, I say don't bother to try to cater such a market, you can't win.


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## Fofer

Right. But some people like to vent. They feel better when they have an outlet to whine. _Que sera sera._


----------



## Chris Gerhard

CoxInPHX said:


> Interesting you mentioned the Logitech Revue Companion Box with Google TV and using it with the TiVo. Just a few days ago I read a posting by a Moxi owner that said "Google TV... two words.. GET IT". For those that don't know about the Moxi DVR it only has Internet Apps through a PC running PlayOn. But it does have very nice HD Menus. Too bad Arris/Moxi has not provided any updates in well over a year. It could have been a real competitor to TiVo. Arris has taken the Moxi interface and is marketing to MSOs as a 6-Tuner Whole Home Gateway, complete with DOCSIS 3 eMTA and MoCA. The only MSOs to bite so far have been BendBroadband in Oregon and Shaw Cable in Canada.


I use Google TV for web browsing, Amazon Prime streaming and accessing other internet video streaming that isn't blocked to Google TV, fortunately most of what I access isn't blocked, at least not yet. For $100, it is exactly what I wanted it to be. For recent movies and great classic movies, I use something else, most often an Oppo BDP-93 or other great quality Blu-ray/DVD player. I stated the Logitech Revue has added value for use in conjunction with an unsubscribed TiVo and explained why because that is just a fact, anybody that states differently is absolutely wrong. Aaronwt needs something more than Google TV offers, it doesn't meet his needs, so from him you get a trash it recommendation.

I am using OTA with TiVoHD and Google TV to avoid the monthly cable or satellite bill and I am very happy with that solution. I looked at Roku and Boxee and neither are as good as Google TV for my needs, in fact, not even close. Google TV is a joint effort between Google, Sony, Intel, Logitech and a few other companies and I believe with their resources has the best chance of becoming the best of the internet streaming boxes for almost everybody. I think the fact it is marketed as good to use with a cable STB or satellite STB is a red herring, designed to respond to the wrath of the cable companies because I think the real value is to avoid using cable.

If the Google acquisition of Motorola Mobility goes through that could have implications for Google TV. The next generation Google TV boxes might be better and worth waiting for or the service might shutdown, I don't know, but I decided to buy now because of price and the fact it does much of what I need as is and I like the upside potential.


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## mikeyts

Fofer said:


> We understand this. We are complaining that a separate stand alone streaming box is even necessary, when TiVo is touting it's "one box" as a means to consolidate it all. TiVo is failing at delivering their promises. We are TiVo customers, so we are complaining.


TiVo is delivering on that promise, you just don't like what they're delivering (and they sure as hell never told anyone that they'd give them a streaming player for Amazon Prime Instant Video, inasmuch as it didn't exist when they introduced the Premiere and at that time their Amazon player was capable of downloading and playing any rental or purchase video available from Amazon).

But they're providing Netflix, Amazon, Blockbuster, Hulu Plus, YouTube, Pandora and other things (Rhapsody seems to be up in there air), together with world-class DVR function, all in "one box". The fact that the players for these things aren't the best available doesn't violate that promise.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

mikeyts said:


> TiVo is delivering on that promise, you just don't like what they're delivering (and they sure as hell never told anyone that they'd give them a streaming player for Amazon Prime Instant Video, inasmuch as it didn't exist when they introduced the Premiere and at that time their Amazon player was capable of downloading and playing any rental or purchase video available from Amazon).
> 
> But they're providing Netflix, Amazon, Blockbuster, Hulu Plus, YouTube, Pandora and other things (Rhapsody seems to be up in there air), together with world-class DVR function, all in "one box". The fact that the players for these things aren't the best available doesn't violate that promise.


I agree with this analysis.


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## Fofer

I don't.


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## Beryl

Fofer said:


> When/how did fearnet.com ever work on a TiVo?


Never has. It is only on the cable company box. I miss it.


----------



## Beryl

Chris Gerhard said:


> If TiVo makes it, the same group of whiners will whine about the price, I say don't bother to try to cater such a market, you can't win.


You don't really know this as being true. There will always be whiners (and those who whine about the whiners) but they aren't always the SAME people.

I use TiVo and a Sony Media Player for streaming and plan to get a blu-ray player that supports Skype eventually. I don't expect TiVo to support all of that but since they do support Amazon streaming, they should support Prime so they can remove that asterisk on the Amazon site.


----------



## Fofer

Beryl said:


> You don't really know this as being true. There will always be whiners (and those who whine about the whiners) but they aren't always the SAME people.
> 
> I use TiVo and a Sony Media Player for streaming and plan to get a blu-ray player that supports Skype eventually. I don't expect TiVo to support all of that but since they do support Amazon streaming, they should support Prime so they can remove that asterisk on the Amazon site.


They support Amazon downloading. Not streaming. Therein lies the rub.


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## Beryl

Fofer said:


> The support Amazon downloading. Not streaming. Therein lies the rub,


You are correct. Standing corrected.


----------



## jcthorne

Chris Gerhard said:


> Ha ha, buy the product that does what you want, don't whine about one that doesn't. This is a DVR with some added internet uses, I find it works great for my needs, you obviously disagree and want to whine about it. I would just use something different if this product didn't suit my needs.


NO. I dont WANT a bunch of OTHER BOXES and all the remotes and lack of integration that goes with them. If I wanted that kind of headache, I'd have stuck with a HTPC.

I WANT the ONE BOX solution that Tivo SOLD ME. (Twice I am afraid). Its a great idea, it COULD work if tivo would only work on the software to do it. Trouble is, the stand alone Premiers are not selling and are not adding to the bottom line. They are chasing other revenue streams and leaving this one to die on the vine.


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## aaronwt

There is no one box solution anywhere and I doubt there ever will be. I figure you will need at leats 2 or 3 boxes since even if you ever had a box that did everything there would always be someone else that does it better. The TiVo excels at recording content, everything else is extra. I use some of the other features but I mainly use other boxes wince they either do it better or have extra features. My TiVo is not going to be playing back my BD ISos or MKVs so right there I need another box. The main boxes I currently use ona regular basis are my TiVos, Boxee Boxes, a Roku 2, and a Popcorn Hour C200.


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## zundian

aaronwt said:


> My TiVo is not going to be playing back my BD ISos or MKVs so right there I need another box. The main boxes I currently use ona regular basis are my TiVos, Boxee Boxes, a Roku 2, and a Popcorn Hour C200.


Does your Tivo not play MKVs? Hmmm. Does pyTivo transcode them or something?


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## jcthorne

My Tivo already plays all my local media including bluray rentals, internet dls, a very large movie,tv,and music collection. Still, a bit of polish and to finish the missing parts of the tivo.

We HAVE a one box solution. Rather than add boxes, we choose not to use the delivery methods that do not yet function on tivo.


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## aadam101

mikeyts said:


> TiVo is delivering on that promise, you just don't like what they're delivering (and they sure as hell never told anyone that they'd give them a streaming player for Amazon Prime Instant Video, inasmuch as it didn't exist when they introduced the Premiere and at that time their Amazon player was capable of downloading and playing any rental or purchase video available from Amazon).
> 
> But they're providing Netflix, Amazon, Blockbuster, Hulu Plus, YouTube, Pandora and other things (Rhapsody seems to be up in there air), together with world-class DVR function, all in "one box". The fact that the players for these things aren't the best available doesn't violate that promise.


You are right. They do deliver those things. They just deliver an inferior product at a much higher price than other set top boxes. TiVo only delivers the bare minimum in terms of being a "one box" solution. Currently, I have to use at least two boxes for my entertainment needs.


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## wmcbrine

zundian said:


> Does your Tivo not play MKVs? Hmmm. Does pyTivo transcode them or something?


Yes.


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## mikeyts

aadam101 said:


> You are right. They do deliver those things. They just deliver an inferior product at a much higher price than other set top boxes. TiVo only delivers the bare minimum in terms of being a "one box" solution.


As I said, "TiVo is delivering on that promise, you just don't like what they're delivering". You can complain and maybe they'll do something to improve these things eventually, but they very well may not. People have been complaining about the Netflix player for years and nothing much has changed (Netflix went to a single-title-for-multiple-TV-series-seasons scheme and they had to deal with that, though few are happy with the "solution").

If venting helps you, I understand--go ahead and vent .

I personally watch and listen to media on any of 7 boxes : TiVo S3, Xbox 360, PS3, Panasonic BDT110, Roku 2 XS, this PC (connected to the same 46" panel and AVR as the rest) and Onkyo AVR (for listening to net radio). I use TiVo more or less exclusively for watching live and recorded cable television; I watch Netflix and Amazon streaming on the Roku 2, VUDU and BDs on the BDT110, ESPN3 and the occasional rented Zune video on the Xbox and I listen to Pandora on my AVR. I used to watch Netflix and VUDU on my PS3, but the Roku 2's Netflix player can do everything that the PS3's can do while operating silently and drawing only 2 watts of power; the BDT110 is equally silent and must also use only a fraction of the power the PS3 draws.

I use a Harmony One to tie it all together--works great .


----------



## Joe3

mikeyts said:


> As I said, "TiVo is delivering on that promise, you just don't like what they're delivering". You can complain and maybe they'll do something to improve these things eventually, but they very well may not. People have been complaining about the Netflix player for years and nothing much has changed (Netflix went to a single-title-for-multiple-TV-series-seasons scheme and they had to deal with that, though few are happy with the "solution").
> 
> If venting helps you, I understand--go ahead and vent .
> 
> I personally watch and listen to media on any of 7 boxes : TiVo S3, Xbox 360, PS3, Panasonic BDT110, Roku 2 XS, this PC (connected to the same 46" panel and AVR as the rest) and Onkyo AVR (for listening to net radio). I use TiVo more or less exclusively for watching live and recorded cable television; I watch Netflix and Amazon streaming on the Roku 2, VUDU and BDs on the BDT110, ESPN3 and the occasional rented Zune video on the Xbox and I listen to Pandora on my AVR. I used to watch Netflix and VUDU on my PS3, but the Roku 2's Netflix player can do everything that the PS3's can do while operating silently and drawing only 2 watts of power; the BDT110 is equally silent and must also use only a fraction of the power the PS3 draws.
> 
> I use a Harmony One to tie it all together--works great .


I assume you live alone.


----------



## Fofer

Oh, snap!


----------



## mikeyts

Joe3 said:


> I assume you live alone.


I suppose it would be a little more difficult if a mixed group of adults and children had to deal with my setup, but under those circumstances they'd have other stuff. These are _my_ toys .

I have a close friend (a fellow SW engineer that I shared an office with for a few years) with 6 kids and a house full of computers, televisions and A/V equipment which they all deal with well.


----------



## aaronwt

zundian said:


> Does your Tivo not play MKVs? Hmmm. Does pyTivo transcode them or something?


So does it have any problem with 40mb/s to 50mb/s MKVs from BD titles? What is the max bitrate the TiVo can handle. Plus what about the HD audio codecs?


----------



## jcthorne

Joe3 said:


> I assume you live alone.


I had exactly the same thought. The WAF of such a 'solution' is near zero.


----------



## jcthorne

aaronwt said:


> So does it have any problem with 40mb/s to 50mb/s MKVs from BD titles? What is the max bitrate the TiVo can handle. Plus what about the HD audio codecs?


Tivo Premiere can support at least 30mb/s mp4s at 1080p and 640kbps AC3. It may go further but I have never tried. It also supports stereo AAC, mp3 and PCM audio. Does not have a DTS decoder onboard so cannot handle those. I never could hear a difference between properly encoded versions of AC3 vs DTS so its fine by me. And I AM particular about audio quality...to the point that I still maintain a large vinyl collection and have some very large class A amps. Once sound is digital, its different than analog. The difference between these two digital formats is small and not worthy of the loss of WAF to deal with a different box. If Tivo someday added DTS, I'd likely use it but its a VERY small loss if any.


----------



## aadam101

mikeyts said:


> I personally watch and listen to media on any of 7 boxes : TiVo S3, Xbox 360, PS3, Panasonic BDT110, Roku 2 XS, this PC (connected to the same 46" panel and AVR as the rest) and Onkyo AVR (for listening to net radio). I use TiVo more or less exclusively for watching live and recorded cable television; I watch Netflix and Amazon streaming on the Roku 2, VUDU and BDs on the BDT110, ESPN3 and the occasional rented Zune video on the Xbox and I listen to Pandora on my AVR. I used to watch Netflix and VUDU on my PS3, but the Roku 2's Netflix player can do everything that the PS3's can do while operating silently and drawing only 2 watts of power; the BDT110 is equally silent and must also use only a fraction of the power the PS3 draws.


So at least you realize Tivo is far from a One Box solution. You have 7 boxes and Tivo is the most expensive (unless you have a really expensive PC) of the bunch and does the least.


----------



## Fofer

LOL - that pretty much sums it up!


----------



## Chris Gerhard

aadam101 said:


> So at least you realize Tivo is far from a One Box solution. You have 7 boxes and Tivo is the most expensive (unless you have a really expensive PC) of the bunch and does the least.


I have a bunch of boxes too but TiVoHD is far from the most expensive and does the most in terms of how often it is used. Which boxes do you own that do more than a TiVo Premiere and why aren't you just using them while not being concerned about this one that doesn't do much in your opinion?

I like a laptop computer a lot more than a smart phone but I will be darned if I waste a minute of time at a smart phone forum complaining about the fact it doesn't do as much as my laptop computer. I will just use the computer when I want to do the things it does.


----------



## Fofer

Terrible analogy. The smartphone isn't being marketed and sold as the one device that will replace your computer.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

Fofer said:


> Terrible analogy. The smartphone isn't being marketed and sold as the one device that will replace your computer.


Nor is the TiVo being advertised to replace boxes that do things it doesn't do. A product advertised as a one box solution isn't a claim it is a one box solution for every consumer, it is up to the consumer to see if it does enough to be a one box solution for their needs. A smart phone is advertised with internet access as was my laptop, somebody that wants to whine about nothing of significance can whine because it won't do everything a laptop that can access the internet can do.


----------



## Fofer

"one box for people who want a DVR and are willing to live with the crappiest, most bare-bones and incomplete (often broken) extras"


----------



## mikeyts

jcthorne said:


> I had exactly the same thought. The WAF of such a 'solution' is near zero.


Not a "solution" as such; there's a tremendous amount of overlap. The TiVo+BD Player+Roku pretty much cover everything. I do play some files on the PC; it'd be nice if one of them had a world-class DLNA player (the BDT110 can do it, in a very limited fashion). If they ever finish the Boxee Box

My current GF has a tech-freak bent and has no problem with this pile of gear. I have an aunt in her early 60s who's way into A/V stuff; you have to pick your mate carefully .


aadam101 said:


> So at least you realize Tivo is far from a One Box solution. You have 7 boxes and Tivo is the most expensive (unless you have a really expensive PC) of the bunch and does the least.


I'm not arguing in support of that idiotic marketing. Someone was complaining about having to have a few different boxes and I was pointing out that things could be worse .


----------



## aadam101

mikeyts said:


> I'm not arguing in support of that idiotic marketing. Someone was complaining about having to have a few different boxes and I was pointing out that things could be worse .


I realize things could always be worse. I complain because I want Tivo (and it's partners) to hear how unhappy Tivo customers are. Facebook is my favorite example. Every single time Tivo makes an innocent posting it's followed up by dozens of negative responses. Keep in mind, these responses are from people who "like" Tivo.

I want Tivo to live up to it's idiotic marketing. Hardware wise, there is no reason it doesn't. Tivo could truly be a one box solution if Tivo would just get off their asses and stop making excuses.


----------



## atmuscarella

aadam101 said:


> I want Tivo to live up to it's idiotic marketing. Hardware wise, there is no reason it doesn't. Tivo could truly be a one box solution if Tivo would just get off their asses and stop making excuses.


Actually we have no idea if TiVo's hardware can deliver on the one box solution or not.

The only hardware proven to actually do what Tivo's marketing leads one to believe a Premiere can do is a well built HTPC which is significantly more powerful than a Premiere.

So until proven otherwise if someone truly wants a one box solution they need to find someone to custom build and configure a good HTPC for them. Then they can have one box that is their blu-ray player, DVR, Media server, and Internet access/streaming device. Just for reference I decided to configure such a HTPC on http://www.pugetsystems.com/htpc.php and it came out to cost about $2000 (included quad cable card tuner).

Thanks,


----------



## innocentfreak

atmuscarella said:


> So until proven otherwise if someone truly wants a one box solution they need to find someone to custom build and configure a good HTPC for them. Then they can have one box that is their blu-ray player, DVR, Media server, and Internet access/streaming device. Just for reference I decided to configure such a HTPC on http://www.pugetsystems.com/htpc.php and it came out to cost about $2000 (included quad cable card tuner).
> 
> Thanks,


That is insanely expensive and really overpriced.


----------



## aadam101

atmuscarella said:


> Actually we have no idea if TiVo's hardware can deliver on the one box solution or not.
> 
> The only hardware proven to actually do what Tivo's marketing leads one to believe a Premiere can do is a well built HTPC which is significantly more powerful than a Premiere.
> 
> So until proven otherwise if someone truly wants a one box solution they need to find someone to custom build and configure a good HTPC for them. Then they can have one box that is their blu-ray player, DVR, Media server, and Internet access/streaming device. Just for reference I decided to configure such a HTPC on http://www.pugetsystems.com/htpc.php and it came out to cost about $2000 (included quad cable card tuner).
> 
> Thanks,


That is not a good analogy. We KNOW that the Tivo can at the bare minimum provide the same functionality that other set top boxes (like the Roku) are providing. The Tivo hardware is MUCH more powerful than a Roku and yet it lacks many things that a Roku has WITHOUT A SUBSCRIPTION.

Even if Tivo were to build your HTPC, it would cost them a lot less as they would buy in bulk.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

aadam101 said:


> That is not a good analogy. We KNOW that the Tivo can at the bare minimum provide the same functionality that other set top boxes (like the Roku) are providing. The Tivo hardware is MUCH more powerful than a Roku and yet it lacks many things that a Roku has WITHOUT A SUBSCRIPTION.
> 
> Even if Tivo were to build your HTPC, it would cost them a lot less as they would buy in bulk.


I am not saying this isn't true but how do you know it is? A TiVo requires considerable horsepower to handle two HD streams simultaneously constantly, writing data, retrieving data and decoding data. Are we sure it has adequate power to do all of the other things necessary to handle everything else required for first rate internet streaming and media center processing. The DVR functions can't be put on hold while other things go on. My assumption has always been the answer is no, compromises are going to be necessary to handle all of the other things.

People are raving about what Roku does but it doesn't appear to me do much I want, certainly not enough that I would buy it, even at a low price.


----------



## Aero 1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&ref_=tsm_1_tw_s_aiv_lqehl1&docId=1000714001


----------



## aaronwt

Aero 1 said:


> https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&ref_=tsm_1_tw_s_aiv_lqehl1&docId=1000714001


Sweet, Thanks!! That will come in handy with Doctor Who just starting back up. At least it will almost cover the cost of two shows.


----------



## djwilso

Thank you, Aero 1.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

Wow, thanks.


----------



## mikeyts

Chris Gerhard said:


> People are raving about what Roku does but it doesn't appear to me do much I want, certainly not enough that I would buy it, even at a low price.


It does stream 1080p Netflix with 5.1 sound subtitles/captions (for titles which have those things) and stream Amazon with 5.1 sound, which made it worth $100 to me (I bought XS and would have gone for the $80 XD except that I wanted wired ethernet and the XS is the only model which has it). It is the most feature capable Netflix player on the market. (The PS3 can do all of the same things except that it can't bitstream DD+ from Netflix and the difference in sound from the PS3 conversion into multi-channel LPCM is substantial; it also consumes about 1% as much power as my launch model PS3 fat--2w versus 200w--and runs utterly silently). Of course, that may be worth less to you than to me .


----------



## atmuscarella

innocentfreak said:


> That is insanely expensive and really overpriced.


Maybe but that was kind of my point, for someone to buy a fully configured HTPC appliance it costs lots of money. Sure many of us posting on this board can build our own HTPC for much less but comparing something that you have to build and maintain yourself to an appliance is a little misleading.


----------



## atmuscarella

Chris Gerhard said:


> I am not saying this isn't true but how do you know it is? A TiVo requires considerable horsepower to handle two HD streams simultaneously constantly, writing data, retrieving data and decoding data. Are we sure it has adequate power to do all of the other things necessary to handle everything else required for first rate internet streaming and media center processing. The DVR functions can't be put on hold while other things go on. My assumption has always been the answer is no, compromises are going to be necessary to handle all of the other things.
> 
> People are raving about what Roku does but it doesn't appear to me do much I want, certainly not enough that I would buy it, even at a low price.


This sums up my view pretty well. We may want to believe that a Premiere can be a mini HTPC but until we actually see it, it is all just marketing hype.


----------



## atmuscarella

aadam101 said:


> That is not a good analogy. We KNOW that the Tivo can at the bare minimum provide the same functionality that other set top boxes (like the Roku) are providing. The Tivo hardware is MUCH more powerful than a Roku and yet it lacks many things that a Roku has WITHOUT A SUBSCRIPTION.
> 
> Even if Tivo were to build your HTPC, it would cost them a lot less as they would buy in bulk.


See Chris Gerhard's post regarding the Premiere's hardware and what we do and do not "know".

Regarding TiVo being able to build a HTPC cheaper than the people already doing it. Why do you think TiVo could do it any cheaper? I would actually expect that if TiVo designed a HTPC to be appliance like and run on TiVos own software and then provided any kind of support at all, that it would actually cost more.

Thanks,


----------



## Charles R

Chris Gerhard said:


> People are raving about what Roku does but it doesn't appear to me do much I want, certainly not enough that I would buy it, even at a low price.


The Roku 2 embarrasses TiVo when it comes to Internet streaming. As a DVR not so much.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

mikeyts said:


> It does stream 1080p Netflix with 5.1 sound subtitles/captions (for titles which have those things) and stream Amazon with 5.1 sound, which made it worth $100 to me (I bought XS and would have gone for the $80 XD except that I wanted wired ethernet and the XS is the only model which has it). It is the most feature capable Netflix player on the market. (The PS3 can do all of the same things except that it can't bitstream DD+ from Netflix and the difference in sound from the PS3 conversion into multi-channel LPCM is substantial; it also consumes about 1% as much power as my launch model PS3 fat--2w versus 200w--and runs utterly silently). Of course, that may be worth less to you than to me .


I think it is a good companion to a TiVo if those features are wanted. I don't have Netflix and since a free trial about 4 years ago and a brief couple of month period after that haven't ever had Netflix. My son uses Netflix streaming a lot and I have seen it. I wanted web browsing with wireless keyboard, some program and guide data and control for my unsubscribed TiVo, a queue of internet streaming to watch, and Amazon Prime Instant Video so for me, the Logitech Revue leaves Roku in the dust, it isn't even close.

I do however understand there are many internet streaming options that beat TiVo Premiere, including Roku. What I don't understand is why everybody that needs a better internet streaming solution doesn't just get one and quit whining about what TiVo can't do. If streaming local content is the primary need, address that, TiVo isn't the best option. I also want an OTA DVR, TiVo is far and away the best option for me.


----------



## aadam101

Chris Gerhard said:


> What I don't understand is why everybody that needs a better internet streaming solution doesn't just get one and quit whining about what TiVo can't do.


We want Tivo to be what it once was......a pioneer in home entertainment solutions.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

aadam101 said:


> We want Tivo to be what it once was......a pioneer in home entertainment solutions.


What do you think it would cost to provide the box you want and what market exists for such a box? You want it for nothing, I understand and you will whine if you don't get it, I understand that also. What I don't see is any reasonable discussion of what it would take to do it or if it can be done with the Premiere as is.


----------



## aadam101

Chris Gerhard said:


> What do you think it would cost to provide the box you want and what market exists for such a box? You want it for nothing, I understand and you will whine if you don't get it, I understand that also. What I don't see is any reasonable discussion of what it would take to do it or if it can be done with the Premiere as is.


Nothing? Is Tivo free? I pay a monthly subscription for what is supposedly considered a premium product. Tivo is nothing more than a very expensive mediocre product that continues to decline everyday.

A market exists for the box that I want because Tivo already offers it. My problem isn't the set of features, it's the implementation of these features.

There is no good reason why the Netflix app has NEVER been updated. I shouldn't be able to buy a $79 device that handles Netflix BETTER than my very expensive Tivo. The same goes for the Amazon app. I'm only asking for Tivo to raise the bar to be equal to the free options out there. I'm not asking much.

In the past couple of months, Tivo has been slowly stripping away features (and not even bothering to tell customers). This is not a trend I want to see continue.


----------



## Beryl

aadam101 said:


> Is Tivo free? I pay a monthly subscription for what is supposedly considered a premium product.


I agree since I get EPG on my Vulkano and can record things just like I can on my TiVo -- FREE. Granted, the TiVo is superior in every DVR way to my Vulkano but since the TiVo box costs twice as much, it should be. The monthly subscription is so steep, you'd think they'd add features most requested by the customers. Amazon streaming is clearly one.

It is kind of like over-priced Comcast - another company many of us love to slam. I must hand it to them that they add features (like onDemand) which help make their service fees a little more palatable.


----------



## aridon

Before they half ass add anything else they need to fix the stuff they have already half assed.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

aadam101 said:


> Nothing? Is Tivo free? I pay a monthly subscription for what is supposedly considered a premium product. Tivo is nothing more than a very expensive mediocre product that continues to decline everyday.
> 
> A market exists for the box that I want because Tivo already offers it. My problem isn't the set of features, it's the implementation of these features.
> 
> There is no good reason why the Netflix app has NEVER been updated. I shouldn't be able to buy a $79 device that handles Netflix BETTER than my very expensive Tivo. The same goes for the Amazon app. I'm only asking for Tivo to raise the bar to be equal to the free options out there. I'm not asking much.
> 
> In the past couple of months, Tivo has been slowly stripping away features (and not even bothering to tell customers). This is not a trend I want to see continue.


I didn't say TiVo was free, I asked what you thought it would take to get TiVo to do all of the things you want and if you thought it was possible. You didn't answer the question, instead you responded with the same non answer as always. You want it but you don't know if it is feasible to provide for the cost or even possible but you are going to whine if you don't get it. I just decided to acquire what was necessary to fill my needs, very simply and very inexpensively, I don't think the Premiere can do what I wanted and no amount of whining will change that. You think it will and will continue until it happens. Good luck.

Hopefully TiVo can fix Netflx, that I do believe is possible although I don't know if the timeframe will suit you.


----------



## aadam101

Chris Gerhard said:


> I didn't say TiVo was free, I asked what you thought it would take to get TiVo to do all of the things you want and if you thought it was possible. You didn't answer the question, instead you responded with the same non answer as always. You want it but you don't know if it is feasible to provide for the cost or even possible but you are going to whine if you don't get it. I just decided to acquire what was necessary to fill my needs, very simply and very inexpensively, I don't think the Premiere can do what I wanted and no amount of whining will change that. You think it will and will continue until it happens. Good luck.
> 
> Hopefully TiVo can fix Netflx, that I do believe is possible although I don't know if the timeframe will suit you.


How can the timeframe possibly suit me? EVERY other set top box already has a better interface. TiVo is the most expensive and yet it cant keep up with the free competition. If TiVo wants to stick around they NEED to do these things.


----------



## atmuscarella

Frankly complaining about TiVo's price/cost is a waist of time. TiVo provides multiple way's to pay for their product if you don't like monthly fees you can pay up front, if you don't have much cash you can pay monthly fees. Everyone gets to decide for themselves what is worth spending their money on. If you think the cost of a TiVo doesn't provide you with enough value for the $ then don't buy one. Move on and find something else to spend your money on. 

Regarding the Premiere TiVo did over hype it and it was delivered before it's time. Tivo rightly deserved to be chastised over both issues. 

The Premiere could have and should have been "more" however at this point the Premiere is what is it is. Which is an excellent DVR and that provides some nice extra features. It is not "the one box", a HTPC replacement, and/or an excellent media streaming device and I doubt it is ever going to be. If you are unhappy with the current feature set I suggest you either don't buy one or if you own one that you sell your unit and move on as it is unlikely to change much at this point. 

My Premiere currently is as stable as any other TiVo I have owned. I have been running the HDUI since the "c" update and have had no issues. It auto downloads over 20 pod casts per week and I use Pandora daily, again all without any issues. If yours has significant issues I would consider it likely that either you have a defective unit or some other issue causing your problems. 

Thanks,


----------



## Charles R

My frustration with TiVo (Premiere in general) is best defined by the HD interface (or lack of). They threw a few screens together and stopped. Not unlike other apps such as Netflix. Right now I can't even stream Netflix without continual buffering where the Roku has a much better image without any issues at all.

I started with TiVo in 2000 and at the time it wasn't state-of-the-art however it simply worked. Later on with stops at satellite and cable I never felt the need to _have to use TiVo_ as their DVRs did the necessities. The Premiere was supposed to address this by offering Internet apps and other features to make itself desirable. Clearly it has fallen well short.

I started using TiVo again when I went OTA only as I can't live without a DVR (at least to watch TV) and it's still the best alternative for me. More so with the current promotion of $10 a month. At $20 or the more expensive lifetime of late I was going to drop it for Windows Media Center.

If you want to simply be a DVR fine... update the interface to state-of-the-art. If you want to be a media center fine... try keeping up with the rest of the world. Rightly or wrongly when one is paying monthly or a nice chunk going in one expects enhancements however to this point its been treading water at best. Having an app like Netflix work as bad as it does is worse than not having it at all to my line of thinking. I know it leaves a worse taste in my mouth.


----------



## seattlewendell

Chris Gerhard said:


> I asked what you thought it would take to get TiVo to do all of the things you want and if you thought it was possible.


Update the Netflix app. No need to reinvent the wheel. The are 20-30 different examples of superior implementation Tivo could copy

Update the Amazon app. No need to reinvent the wheel. The are 20-30 different examples of superior implementation Tivo could copy

Fix the HD menus. What? A company with Tivo's resources should be able to do this in 60-90 days from concept->Dev->Test->Rollout. Come on, there are people making more polished and complicated apps with 1/100th of Tivo resources

Why is this so hard for you to understand.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

seattlewendell said:


> Update the Netflix app. No need to reinvent the wheel. The are 20-30 different examples of superior implementation Tivo could copy
> 
> Update the Amazon app. No need to reinvent the wheel. The are 20-30 different examples of superior implementation Tivo could copy
> 
> Fix the HD menus. What? A company with Tivo's resources should be able to do this in 60-90 days from concept->Dev->Test->Rollout. Come on, there are people making more polished and complicated apps with 1/100th of Tivo resources
> 
> Why is this so hard for you to understand.


He didn't state these are the only things he wants. What is wrong with the TiVo Amazon VoD service? I have used it, works fine, I purchase the program and it downloads and I watch it, what else is it supposed to do? Is it broken on the Premiere but works fine on the TiVoHD? If you are requesting the Prime Instant Video, there may be reasons that hasn't been offered and it may be it can't be offered to TiVo. I don't just assume TiVo isn't trying to do something a portion of their market wants, I would like to know if Amazon has authorized TiVo to develop the Prime Instant Video service.

I am not up to speed on the terminology here either. When did ordering Video on Demand become an app? I have had VoD service with DirecTV and Comcast and it was just a pay service we used, calling it an app seems silly to me. I don't have a smart phone and I guess I am not hip enough to call things apps. Accessing a webpage and ordering something doesn't feel like an app to me.

You are another person that just assumes these things are simple and TiVo can just copy some box that isn't a DVR and uses a different processor and has way different processing needs. If it is so simple, just write the code, send it to TiVo, and say here it is, it is too simple to charge you for.


----------



## aadam101

Chris Gerhard said:


> What is wrong with the TiVo Amazon VoD service?


The major problem with the Amazon VOD service is that in order to download something you have previously purchased, you have to go to your computer, login to your Amazon account and force the download from there. That is certainly not the "One Box" solution that Tivo has promised us. On EVERY other device I have seen that offers Amazon VOD, you are able to browse your library and watch anything within your library from the box with no need to walk upstairs to your computer.



Chris Gerhard said:


> You are another person that just assumes these things are simple and TiVo can just copy some box that isn't a DVR and uses a different processor and has way different processing needs. If it is so simple, just write the code, send it to TiVo, and say here it is, it is too simple to charge you for.


I don't think it's as simple as "copying a code". However, pretty much EVERY other set top box (and TV) manufacturer has a better Netflix app than Tivo. There is NO excuse for this when I pay such a hefty monthly fee. EVERY other device maker is able to offer this, so it can't be _that_ difficult to implement.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

aadam101 said:


> The major problem with the Amazon VOD service is that in order to download something you have previously purchased, you have to go to your computer, login to your Amazon account and force the download from there. That is certainly not the "One Box" solution that Tivo has promised us. On EVERY other device I have seen that offers Amazon VOD, you are able to browse your library and watch anything within your library from the box with no need to walk upstairs to your computer.
> 
> I don't think it's as simple as "copying a code". However, pretty much EVERY other set top box (and TV) manufacturer has a better Netflix app than Tivo. There is NO excuse for this when I pay such a hefty monthly fee. EVERY other device maker is able to offer this, so it can't be _that_ difficult to implement.


You have written a lot into "One Box" as if there is a universal meaning to the term that you know is correct. I never made the leap from TiVo marketing hype to the conclusion you have as to what TiVo has to do to live up to the marketing terms used to promote the TiVo Premiere.

For all I know it could be an Amazon requirement regarding how purchased videos are to be accessed by TiVo users. Do you know it is just TiVo ineptness that results in this very minor inconvenience? Can a Roku access iTunes stuff? I don't know the answer to that question and don't know if purchased video and audio stored in cyberspace should be accessible by anything that can access the internet since I don't have any of it. I have a Google TV and probably wouldn't use a computer to authorize any Amazon purchased videos, if I had any, but using a computer or a tablet wouldn't be any big deal because I would have understood that requirement before purchasing the video. All I use is the limited term rentals from Amazon with my TiVoHDs which works perfectly in my opinion. I watch them then soon after, poof, they turn into nothing.

Give me one example of a standalone DVR that does the things you want. If it doesn't exist, I suggest you just get one of those inexpensive separate boxes you say exist and work so wonderfully and be happy, you get to choose which one. It seems to me you would have covered a lot with just two boxes.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Chris Gerhard said:


> You have written a lot into "One Box" as if there is a universal meaning to the term that you know is correct. I never made the leap from TiVo marketing hype to the conclusion you have as to what TiVo has to do to live up to the marketing terms used to promote the TiVo Premiere.


The biggest problem, to me, is that Tivo rolls out the occasional app and the HD interface and then pretty much abandons them, look-and-feel wise. They are never updated to keep up with the competition from that point on, even when it's proven that they are woefully behind the curve (i.e., Netflix, Youtube, Amazon, Rhapsody, and all the free VOD stuff with the outdated podcasts etc.). At least that's what seems to be happening ever since the S3/HDs came out.


----------



## aadam101

Chris Gerhard said:


> Give me one example of a standalone DVR that does the things you want. If it doesn't exist,


What kind of an argument is that? Just because there isn't anything better is not a reason why Tivo should be lazy and incompetent with their product.


----------



## aadam101

Chris Gerhard said:


> You have written a lot into "One Box" as if there is a universal meaning to the term that you know is correct. I never made the leap from TiVo marketing hype to the conclusion you have as to what TiVo has to do to live up to the marketing terms used to promote the TiVo Premiere.


So you never made the "leap" from Tivo's marketing of "One Box" to expect it to mean that you will only need "one box"......hmmmmm.


----------



## atmuscarella

aadam101 said:


> So you never made the "leap" from Tivo's marketing of "One Box" to expect it to mean that you will only need "one box"......hmmmmm.


Given that "One Box" has no meaning without additional context (as in the one box to do what?), everyone could believe it meant anything they wanted it to mean.

It was nothing more than bad marketing hype.

For the Premiere to actually be the "One Box" or only box for most people on these forums it would have had to replace/provide the same functionality as most if not all of the following: 
A Cable or Satellite STB
A Blu-ray player
Multiple DVRs
A streaming media device or a PC/Laptop
Various gaming consoles 
A home Theater Receiver Including AM, FM, HD, & Satellite Radio
Even a high end gaming HTPC could not do all of the above so the reality is there never was and never will be a "One Box" solution.

Unfortunately for many people they assumed "One Box" meant more than it did. At this point there is no question as to what the Premiere's abilities are. So I say if they are not what someone wants move on and be done with it.

TiVo's new marketing slogan of "Smart DVR" is actually very good. It is still slightly over sold but is close to what I would say a Premiere is.

Thanks,


----------



## KungFuCow

aadam101 said:


> What kind of an argument is that? Just because there isn't anything better is not a reason why Tivo should be lazy and incompetent with their product.


Youre wasting your time on the Tivo fanbois.


----------



## Charles R

atmuscarella said:


> Unfortunately for many people they assumed "One Box" meant more than it did.


Rather many people thought it would perform (at least on a satisfactory level) the features contained it its _one box_.



> At this point there is no question as to what the Premiere's abilities are. So I say if they are not what someone wants move on and be done with it.


In today's day and age this isn't valid (at all). As an example up to a few weeks ago Netflix worked on a level I was happy with - it streamed reasonable well. Forgiving the antiquated interface and lack of features. Well now it's useless from the endless buffering that other devices at the same installation do not suffer from.

Today firmware and or software updates are a way of life and as such you can't judge a product based on one point in time. Look at what just happened recently... they added Streaming with one firmware and removed it with the next. Throw in the fact one is paying for enhancements (either monthly or a one time payment) and you certainly shouldn't be able to decide its future value based on today... just like any investment it should grow.


----------



## atmuscarella

aadam101 said:


> What kind of an argument is that? Just because there isn't anything better is not a reason why Tivo should be lazy and incompetent with their product.


The fact that someone else hasn't built a DVR with the functionality we would all have liked the Premiere to have had indicates there are issue in building such a product. It maybe cost or it maybe technical (hardware and/or software). The one thing I do know is if it were profitable we would have multiple vendors to choose from.

While I have no idea if TiVo was/is actually "lazy and incompetent" I do tend to believe they could have done much better. The proof of that is where the Premiere is now compared to where it was at release.

The decision as to when a product is "good enough" for release is a tough one. Many things I have now (computers, blu-ray player, receiver) all had significant issues that were worked on through various software releases months and even years after the product was released.

So should TiVo have delayed the release of the Premiere by 6 months or doubled down on resources to develop it 6 months before it was released? From a consumer's point of view - you bet. From a profitability point of view - I have no way of knowing.

Thanks,


----------



## aadam101

atmuscarella said:


> So should TiVo have delayed the release of the Premiere by 6 months or doubled down on resources to develop it 6 months before it was released? From a consumer's point of view - you bet. From a profitability point of view - I have no way of knowing.
> 
> Thanks,


We are no longer talking about delaying a product 6 months. Tivo didn't delay it because they knew it wouldn't do any good. They released the product a year and a half ago and have only made very minor updates to it. This has been their track record for quite some time. Once the product is "done" they are just going to forget about it anyway so there was no reason to delay it.


----------



## dwit

aadam101 said:


> ...This has been their track record for quite some time. Once the product is "done" they are just going to forget about it anyway...


If that is the case, why would you continue to buy their products?


----------



## slowbiscuit

Most people that buy standalone CE devices today do not expect significant updates for them - if you're lucky you might get a few fixes here and there, but nothing substantial.

Tivo is different - you're not just paying for the box, you're paying for a service. And people rightly expect that the product will receive more than just token bug fixes and cheap program guide data for the cost of that service. This is where Tivo is falling down now, but they just don't seem to care.


----------



## morac

atmuscarella said:


> Given that "One Box" has no meaning without additional context (as in the one box to do what?), everyone could believe it meant anything they wanted it to mean.


But there is additional context. TiVo lists exactly what the "one box" does. Of course a number of things listed don't work. For example my TiVo hasn't downloaded a "The Onion" web video in over a year even though there are new ones. The problem is that "The Onion" changed something on their end and TiVo never updated things on there end. TiVo also claims any RSS podcast feed will work, but I've found that not to be the case.

As for everything else. TiVo was the first (non-PC) box to offer YouTube, Netflix and Amazon. At that time there was no standard interface for either service so TiVo put something together that worked. That's all well and good. The problem is that was years ago, before the Premiere even came out. Afterwards other boxes came out with better interfaces, features and functionality.

When the Premiere came out, rather than update them to take advantage of the Premiere's hardware and UI, TiVo simply reused the old apps from the S3 (and in YouTube's case the S2) and plopped them on the Premiere because that required no work at all. There a number of possible reasons for this: laziness, mismanagement, lack of time, etc; but the end result is what we see today..


----------



## aaronwt

Maybe TiVo will surprise us with a big update when the Premiere Q is released. Or they will have a big release that addresses everything on December 20th, 2012.


----------



## MichaelK

Chris Gerhard said:


> What do you think it would cost to provide the box you want and what market exists for such a box? You want it for nothing, I understand and you will whine if you don't get it, I understand that also. What I don't see is any reasonable discussion of what it would take to do it or if it can be done with the Premiere as is.


personally i think the hardware (even S3) is plenty capable of having reasonable UI's for the various services and also of streaming. Tivo Search on the S3's and the completed parts of the premiere show that they can at least get in the ballpark of a decent contemporary UI. They stream plenty of services so streaming itself isn't an issue. If Rhapsody or Amazon have decided to use a codec or bit rate or something that Tivo's hardware just can't handle then just say so, so that people understand the issues.

So I think it's a lack of software effort that we have what we have. Some suggest that tivo outsources their software development now a days. Seems they have a crappy vendor.

and I dont want it for nothing. I am more than willing to pay a premium for hardware. I bought the HDirecTivo the day it came out, I bought 2 S3's at about their launch. I understand that most people dont want to pay 600-800 for a DVR like i have been willing to do in the past. But Tivo sells the current hardware for a lot less than that- and as above i think their hardware is plenty fine to do what people seem to want.

Also, to be clear- i really haven't complained at all- I'm merely saying I dont think the people complaining are "whiners" - i think they have reasonable gripes.

If people were complaining they didn't like the color scheme of menus or other aesthetic things like that then sure- that's whining. But there are functional issues that are the problem. There's things missing that Tivo should reasonably be able to deliver- they have proven elsewhere in their products that they can. And that's the complaint that I personally would make.

But then again they are too lazy, cheap, incompetent, whatever one wants to call it- to finish the HD UI on the premieres. So what should we expect...


----------



## MichaelK

slowbiscuit said:


> Most people that buy standalone CE devices today do not expect significant updates for them - if you're lucky you might get a few fixes here and there, but nothing substantial.
> 
> Tivo is different - you're not just paying for the box, you're paying for a service. And people rightly expect that the product will receive more than just token bug fixes and cheap program guide data for the cost of that service. This is where Tivo is falling down now, but they just don't seem to care.


This is a very good point.

Used to be your bought a cell phone and that was that. Now people (right or wrong) EXPECT that it be updated on a regular basis. They even expect the phones to get firmware updates well after the phones are End of Life'd and unavailable in stores. Same with tablets, ipods, etc. DVR's from other manufactures. Other things i own that have firmware also get udates all the time that fix bugs and frequently add new functionality: my vera home automation box, my eyefi SD cards with wifi, my logitech remotes. And probably what plays into peoples minds to reinforce that thinking are that "apps" update like made. You buy an app on your cellphone or tablet and you get free updates for life it seems. Probably every week my cell phone updates 10-20% of my apps for free. And these are people that i either payed nothing to or maybe 99 or 1.99 ONCE years ago, 3 cell phones ago.

My HD Tv's are pretty "old" in the scheme of things- all these new HDTV's that come with "apps" do they get updates over time or is it once and done? I wonder if the next washing machine I buy will get free firmware updates in the future....

It's not tivo's fault but that's the new reality of things- people expect more and more stuff to get regular updates. Tivo loses tons of money I know. I dont know how to fix them- I dont envy the people working there trying to figure it out. But i do know they dont come off as well now a days as they did "back in the gold old days".


----------



## aadam101

MichaelK said:


> Used to be your bought a cell phone and that was that. Now people (right or wrong) EXPECT that it be updated on a regular basis. They even expect the phones to get firmware updates well after the phones are End of Life'd and unavailable in stores. Same with tablets, ipods, etc. DVR's from other manufactures. Other things i own that have firmware also get udates all the time that fix bugs and frequently add new functionality: my vera home automation box, my eyefi SD cards with wifi, my logitech remotes. And probably what plays into peoples minds to reinforce that thinking are that "apps" update like made. You buy an app on your cellphone or tablet and you get free updates for life it seems. Probably every week my cell phone updates 10-20% of my apps for free. And these are people that i either payed nothing to or maybe 99 or 1.99 ONCE years ago, 3 cell phones ago.
> 
> It's not tivo's fault but that's the new reality of things- people expect more and more stuff to get regular updates.


It IS Tivo's fault that people expect these things. TiVo used to make a small "event" out of a software update. They would come here and post release notes. They would even sometimes let people opt in to a waiting list to receive the update first.

Those things used to happen because TiVo knew they were putting out a good product. Now they know their product is a dog. That's why the employees have given up on posting here. No good can come of it.


----------



## shwru980r

aadam101 said:


> Nothing? Tivo is nothing more than a very expensive mediocre product that continues to decline everyday.


I think Tivo is a really good DVR with mediocre OTT applications. I think many customers are saving money overall with Tivo, because they can use OTA or a Basic cable package and still find many shows to watch.


----------



## slowbiscuit

My feelings as well, which you could somewhat understand in the S3/HD days. But not now, when the Premiere is pitched as the 'one box'. Well... it could be, if Tivo actually gave a damn about making the other apps work as well as the competition's.


----------



## mikeyts

My TiVo S3 is a superb DVR--it didn't do any of this stuff when I bought it and I never expected or needed for it to do any of it. With lifetime service, I paid $1100 for it and consider every penny well spent. It's still working perfectly and doing everything that I need for it to do 4.5 years later.

I use the streaming video and network radio services, but I have several other devices which can do these things, better. Between TiVo (for live and recorded TV), Panasonic BD player (BDs, DVDs and VUDU), my Roku 2 (Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, occasional others) and AVR (net radio and sound for everything), I got it all covered. (Inasmuch as I don't watch many discs, if they ever add VUDU to the Roku I'd hardly ever use the BD player).

I don't think that TiVo, which has never been the most profitable enterprise, is making any huge amount of money on retail DVRs. The cable companies' leased offerings get better all the time and have been gradually killing that business (TiVo peaked at 4.4M subs in 2007 and had 2M at last report). Not being able to "beat 'em", they've "joined 'em" and have been selling equipment and firmware to the cable companies. Trading on their specialty DVR IP is where their future probably lies and not in pumping more good money after bad into a business that will never again be a growth center for them, no matter what they do. You can hope but I doubt that you're going to see much advancement in the form of revamped streaming apps.

(I just came across an interesting and kind of related piece on ZDNet's blog, here).


----------



## aadam101

mikeyts said:


> My TiVo S3 is a superb DVR--it didn't do any of this stuff when I bought it and I never expected or needed for it to do any of it. With lifetime service, I paid $1100 for it and consider every penny well spent. It's still working perfectly and doing everything that I need for it to do 4.5 years later.
> 
> I use the streaming video and network radio services, but I have several other devices which can do these things, better. Between TiVo (for live and recorded TV), Panasonic BD player (BDs, DVDs and VUDU), my Roku 2 (Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, occasional others) and AVR (net radio and sound for everything), I got it all covered. (Inasmuch as I don't watch many discs, if they ever add VUDU to the Roku I'd hardly ever use the BD player).
> 
> I don't think that TiVo, which has never been the most profitable enterprise, is making any huge amount of money on retail DVRs. The cable companies' leased offerings get better all the time and have been gradually killing that business (TiVo peaked at 4.4M subs in 2007 and had 2M at last report). Not being able to "beat 'em", they've "joined 'em" and have been selling equipment and firmware to the cable companies. Trading on their specialty DVR IP is where their future probably lies and not in pumping more good money after bad into a business that will never again be a growth center for them, no matter what they do. You can hope but I doubt that you're going to see much advancement in the form of revamped streaming apps.
> 
> (I just came across an interesting and kind of related piece on ZDNet's blog, here).


Interesting article that just proves the point that TiVo should be focusing on their streaming apps. Netflix has been around for as long as TiVo and has been a huge success. TiVo should provide the best Netflix experience possible since that business is growing. People are already finding better ways to stream Netflix making TiVo less relevant.


----------



## jfalkingham

Kind of running off topic a bit, but TiVo is more relevant in the Netflix (add your provider here) streaming world. 

Content owners are leaving all-in-one streaming services. Fox, HBO, Starz, Sony and there will be more. They are digging in and forcing you to go to them for the content (or watching it on their broadcast or pay channel). 

How much did Amazon, Blockbuster and Netflix pay TiVo to include their service?


----------



## MichaelK

aadam101 said:


> Interesting article that just proves the point that TiVo should be focusing on their streaming apps. Netflix has been around for as long as TiVo and has been a huge success. TiVo should provide the best Netflix experience possible since that business is growing. People are already finding better ways to stream Netflix making TiVo less relevant.


Wow that article is a bit of a wakeup call. Dvr's are dying. I'd say Google has the right idea with googletv but even that isn't doing anything for volume.

I guess the Netflix on any device strategy works. Anyone know of any stats of what devices people use most for netflix et al? I guess maybe those of us who want "one box" are the oddballs. I guess people don't mind bouncing from disc player to cable box to ps3/Xbox, etc.

Makes me wonder why harmony remotes aren't ubiquitous.


----------



## djwilso

MichaelK said:


> Wow that article is a bit of a wakeup call. Dvr's are dying. I'd say Google has the right idea with googletv but even that isn't doing anything for volume.
> 
> I guess the Netflix on any device strategy works. Anyone know of any stats of what devices people use most for netflix et al? I guess maybe those of us who want "one box" are the oddballs. I guess people don't mind bouncing from disc player to cable box to ps3/Xbox, etc.
> 
> Makes me wonder why harmony remotes aren't ubiquitous.


I would definitely use one box if I could. For now, my TiVo S3, Roku and Blu-ray player work very well. And I do use a Harmony remote that I wouldn't want to be without.


----------



## atmuscarella

mikeyts said:


> (I just came across an interesting and kind of related piece on ZDNet's blog, here).


Basically the article is a piece of sh** that sounds good. The article is a good example of using facts/statistics to come to a conclusion that can not be made from the facts/statistics that were used.

First I will say I do not believe anything in the article is factually wrong. However Ed conveniently left out a majority of the facts needed to determine if his conclusion was bullsh** or not. First I will quota his conclusion/summary:

"Summary: The DVR is an endangered species. TiVo, the company that defined the category a decade ago, is on the ropes, and Microsoft has all but declared Media Center a legacy app. A comparison of the two technologies explains why."​
So he believes "The DVR is an endangered species" because TiVo and Microsoft are doing poorly. Sounds good until you remember that TiVo and Mocrosoft are the 2 smallest players in the DVR business. He conveniently didn't mention or provide any data on the 4 largest players (Dish/echostar, Direct, Cisco/SA & Motorola).

The next thing he does is conveniently attribute all of Netflix's business to streaming media. That's nice except again it is bullsh**.

So to conclude he has not provide the data necessary to determine more people are using streaming than DVRs or that streaming is or will be replacing DVRs.

All he has done is state what we already know which is that Stand alone DVRs are not popular with the general public.

So I will end where I started. It is a bullsh** article that sounds good.


----------



## Beryl

atmuscarella said:


> ...
> So he believes "The DVR is an endangered species" because TiVo and Microsoft are doing poorly. Sounds good until you remember that TiVo and Mocrosoft are the 2 smallest players in the DVR business. He conveniently didn't mention or provide any data on the 4 largest players (Dish/echostar, Direct, Cisco/SA & Motorola).
> 
> The next thing he does is conveniently attribute all of Netflix's business to streaming media. That's nice except again it is bullsh**.
> 
> So to conclude he has not provide the data necessary to determine more people are using streaming than DVRs or that streaming is or will be replacing DVRs.
> 
> All he has done is state what we already know which is that Stand alone DVRs are not popular with the general public.
> 
> So I will end where I started. It is a bullsh** article that sounds good.


I don't agree that it is a BS article but I agree that he failed conclusively prove what we already know. I only hope TiVo is acting on this data (which they already had) and provide streaming Amazon Prime video as well as improve on streaming they already support.


----------



## MichaelK

to me it was understood that he was talking about 3rd party devices. As you pointed out cable and DBS have plenty of DVR subs.

But when i go back and read it- seems I just assumed that's what he meant since it's what i was thinking. He does seem to fail to understand that generic rented DVR's are quite prevalent. 

I also had the same thought about netflix- I wish he would have marked on the graphs when they started streaming.


----------



## aadam101

I dont believe that the DVR is dying. In fact, I think it's still a growing market. There are are lots of people I know who have just recently got one from their cable company.

TiVo, on the other hand, is a dying business. There are many factors that have led to this but the fact is that they havent done anything truly innovtive in years. They were always a premium niche product offered a stellar product. Now they are a premium niche product who offers a mediocre product. I do believe they could be saved but they are going to need some new management in place ASAP.


----------



## atmuscarella

Beryl said:


> I don't agree that it is a BS article but I agree that he failed conclusively prove what we already know. I only hope TiVo is acting on this data (which they already had) and provide streaming Amazon Prime video as well as improve on streaming they already support.


Don't look at the article through our TiVo glasses. He wasn't proposing that TiVo and Media Center were in decline he stated that as a fact to support his opinion that:

"The DVR is an endangered species."​
He then went on to use TiVo and Media Center data to "Support/Prove" his opinion while completely (and conveniently) omitting any data about what was going on with the larger DVR players and the DVR market over all. It would be like saying that cars are an endangered species because the 2 smallest producers of cars were in trouble, while conveniently omitting what was going on with the whole car market.

He then goes on to use NetFlix increased subscriber base to "Support/Prove" that streaming media was the causing the demise of the DVR.

I called bullsh** on both of the above by saying the article was bullsh**.

Ed is entitled to his opinion on where DVR usage will go and if increased streaming video usage will effect the usage of DVRs or not. However it is bullsh** when he claims the facts he stated prove or even support either of his opinions.

Thanks,


----------



## javabird

Just saw this article--looks like the "Premiere Elite" quad-tuner Tivo will be able to stream Amazon Instant Video.

"The THX-certified Elite also gives you access to on-demand streaming services from Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, BlocKbuster, and Amazon Instant Video."


----------



## innocentfreak

This could still be the old Amazon though.


----------



## twhiting9275

Beryl said:


> I only hope TiVo is acting on this data (which they already had) and provide streaming Amazon Prime video as well as improve on streaming they already support.


This would involve an entire rewrite of the Amazon code, something I don't think we'll be seeing for the near future. Distant, maybe, but not for this series of boxes.

When it comes to Tivo, honestly, I expect nothing but what I pay for. Give me my tuners, and I'm happy. Throw in innovation and I'll be even better. Add more tuners , and, well, you've got a sweet deal!!

Tivo's Amazon interface has always sucked, honestly. I wouldn't MIND them overhauling it, just saying I wouldn't expect it. I still stick with my Sony BRD system for that, and it works so much better than Tivo. Same goes for Hulu, and Netflix (when I had it).

Tivo is great for networking television, multiple tuners, getting what I can't watch right away, but when you get too far away from TV, it really, really doesn't function as well as it should.


----------



## modnar

javabird said:


> Just saw this article--looks like the "Premiere Elite" quad-tuner Tivo will be able to stream Amazon Instant Video.
> 
> "The THX-certified Elite also gives you access to on-demand streaming services from Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, BlocKbuster, and Amazon Instant Video."


I'm not sure that means much. Oddly, some of the info on TiVo's help for the Premiere includes the same language of "Amazon Instant Video."


----------



## twhiting9275

modnar said:


> I'm not sure that means much. Oddly, some of the info on TiVo's help for the Premiere includes the same language of "Amazon Instant Video."


Yeah, I wouldn't get your hopes up there. The Premiere Elite is just the Premiere with a bigger hardware. Don't expect anything more there


----------



## javabird

I guess maybe that is referring to the regular Amazon video, since the streaming service is called "Amazon Prime." I got confused because Amazon has changed the name a couple of times (from Unbox -> Video On Demand ). Now it's called Instant Video which is a little misleading.


----------



## aaronwt

modnar said:


> I'm not sure that means much. Oddly, some of the info on TiVo's help for the Premiere includes the same language of "Amazon Instant Video."


Right now on the Premiere menu it is listed as "Amazon Instant Video". Of course it's download only.


----------



## mikeyts

javabird said:


> I guess maybe that is referring to the regular Amazon video, since the streaming service is called "Amazon Prime.".


Both my Roku and my BD player call it "Amazon Instant Video" and they can only stream. They call the at-no-additional-charge-with-Prime-membership "Prime Instant Video" (see this)--this is my 5th year as an Amazon Prime member and they just added the videos in February. Prime began as $80/year for no-additional-charge 2-day shipping plus $3.99-per-item overnight shipping. They're trying to figure out even more things to add to the deal to make it more attractive to more customers.


----------



## sbiller




----------



## Chris Gerhard

javabird said:


> Just saw this article--looks like the "Premiere Elite" quad-tuner Tivo will be able to stream Amazon Instant Video.
> 
> "The THX-certified Elite also gives you access to on-demand streaming services from Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, BlocKbuster, and Amazon Instant Video."





aaronwt said:


> Right now on the Premiere menu it is listed as "Amazon Instant Video". Of course it's download only.





mikeyts said:


> Both my Roku and my BD player call it "Amazon Instant Video" and they can only stream. They call the at-no-additional-charge-with-Prime-membership "Prime Instant Video" (see this)--this is my 5th year as an Amazon Prime member and they just added the videos in February. Prime began as $80/year for no-additional-charge 2-day shipping plus $3.99-per-item overnight shipping. They're trying to figure out even more things to add to the deal to make it more attractive to more customers.


It would need to be called Amazon Prime Instant Video to get the free streaming offered with Amazon Prime membership. I don't see that language and as far as I know, it is only available in streaming form, not download like Amazon Instant Video accessible by TiVo. The pay per view streaming available as Amazon Instant Video with some of the same boxes having access to Amazon Prime Instant Video isn't nearly as cool as the download version available on TiVo.

I don't use Netflix and can't comment on how well TiVo does that but the PPV Amazon Instant Video works better with TiVo as a download and view before the expiration date for my needs. You can buy it on a weekend sale and use it any time before expiration and know it won't have any buffering or internet speed issues like streaming might. I use Google TV for Amazon Prime Instant Video but use TiVo for the one or two times a month I buy a weekend movie rental, this last weekend was Priest (2011). So in that case TiVo is the best option in my opinion.


----------



## sbiller

Chris Gerhard said:


> It would need to be called Amazon Prime Instant Video to get the free streaming offered with Amazon Prime membership. I don't see that language and as far as I know, it is only available in streaming form, not download like Amazon Instant Video accessible by TiVo. The pay per view streaming available as Amazon Instant Video with some of the same boxes having access to Amazon Prime Instant Video isn't nearly as cool as the download version available on TiVo.


Correct. TiVo has unofficially confirmed through multiple sources that they are working on support of true Amazon streaming (to be compatible with Amazon Prime Instant Video). I'm expecting this support to come with a 14.9 release. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we don't need to wait until next year's major 16.0 upgrade to get this support.


----------



## javabird

I think that article I quoted was misleading, as the article's author lumped the Amazon in with "on-demand streaming services." 

I've used the Instant Video many times, but the main reason I'm looking forward to true streaming on the Tivo is that it's just so much more convenient not to have to worry about the ridiculous 24-hour viewing window. Honestly, if the viewing window was at least 48 hours, I probably would use the service much more often.


----------



## DVReveler

I cancelled my Netflix when they jacked up the prices, I've been using Hulu Plus in the meantime but can't wait for prime to be an option too. And I hope the implementation is better than Hulu on my Premiere.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

sbiller said:


> Correct. TiVo has unofficially confirmed through multiple sources that they are working on support of true Amazon streaming (to be compatible with Amazon Prime Instant Video). I'm expecting this support to come with a 14.9 release. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we don't need to wait until next year's major 16.0 upgrade to get this support.


I haven't followed the news related to TiVo adding the Amazon streaming services so this possibility is good to see but I also hope that the option to download and play for PPV movies in HD isn't removed, my internet service isn't fast enough for acceptable HD streaming. I plan to try to negotiate a deal for faster service once the current service 1-year agreement expires but even then I will be using Wi-Fi, ethernet cable is too much trouble to run throughout the house and I would prefer download and view.


----------



## Beryl

Chris Gerhard said:


> ...even then I will be using Wi-Fi, ethernet cable is too much trouble to run throughout the house and I would prefer download and view.


Have you considered Power-line? I like Netgear's offerings.


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## RangerOne

sbiller said:


> Correct. TiVo has unofficially confirmed through multiple sources that they are working on support of true Amazon streaming (to be compatible with Amazon Prime Instant Video). I'm expecting this support to come with a 14.9 release. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we don't need to wait until next year's major 16.0 upgrade to get this support.


I have a feeling that its not in 14.9. I used a Elite Premiere with 14.9 on it and I'm pretty sure it did not have a new Amazon client.

It's possible that the Amazon client could be updated without the TiVo being updated.

By the way, how do you know that 16 is not coming out till next year?


----------



## innocentfreak

RangerOne said:


> I have a feeling that its not in 14.9. I used a Elite Premiere with 14.9 on it and I'm pretty sure it did not have a new Amazon client.
> 
> It's possible that the Amazon client could be updated without the TiVo being updated.
> 
> By the way, how do you know that 16 is not coming out till next year?


I imagine it could be, but they would probably just have to roll out a new app like pandora or hulu. Once the new app was out they should be able to update it when they feel like it. This is assuming the old app is tied into the ui.

He may just be assuming it since I dont think TiVo has a tendency of skipping major revisions. 15.0 could bring things like streaming.


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## wmcbrine

innocentfreak said:


> He may just be assuming it since I dont think TiVo has a tendency of skipping major revisions.


Well there was never a version 10 that I saw... and what was the first version the Premiere came with?


----------



## larrs

I am really looking forward to this as I don't have another box that supports Amazon VOD right now, just my HTPC. My BD player has Blockbuster, Netflix, CinemaNow and Vudu. And, of course Xbobx has Xbox Live. 

As a Prime sub, I need Tivo to get this for me. I don't like it on the PC that much.


----------



## innocentfreak

wmcbrine said:


> Well there was never a version 10 that I saw... and what was the first version the Premiere came with?


The Premiere shipped with 14.0 or 14.1 iirc.


----------



## wmcbrine

innocentfreak said:


> The Premiere shipped with 14.0 or 14.1 iirc.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. So, no version 12 or 13 either.


----------



## aaronwt

larrs said:


> I am really looking forward to this as I don't have another box that supports Amazon VOD right now, just my HTPC. My BD player has Blockbuster, Netflix, CinemaNow and Vudu. And, of course Xbobx has Xbox Live.
> 
> As a Prime sub, I need Tivo to get this for me. I don't like it on the PC that much.


Right now, Amazon streaming is no replacement for Netflix. They have far fewer titles listed. I plan on using Amazon even less now that VUDU has more TV programming. I can get my Doctor Who and other shows from VUDU now instead of Amazon.


----------



## Beryl

aaronwt said:


> Right now, Amazon streaming is no replacement for Netflix. They have far fewer titles listed. I plan on using Amazon even less now that VUDU has more TV programming. I can get my Doctor Who and other shows from VUDU now instead of Amazon.


Betcha that will change with the introduction of their new tablet.


----------



## Fofer

aaronwt said:


> Right now, Amazon streaming is no replacement for Netflix. They have far fewer titles listed. I plan on using Amazon even less now that VUDU has more TV programming. I can get my Doctor Who and other shows from VUDU now instead of Amazon.


Via what device are you accessing VUDU? The VUDU box itself? PS3? Just curious.


----------



## Beryl

Fofer said:


> Via what device are you accessing VUDU? The VUDU box itself? PS3? Just curious.


You didn't ask me but I get Vudu from my Panasonic Blu-Ray Disk player.


----------



## atmuscarella

aaronwt said:


> Right now, Amazon streaming is no replacement for Netflix. They have far fewer titles listed. I plan on using Amazon even less now that VUDU has more TV programming. I can get my Doctor Who and other shows from VUDU now instead of Amazon.


What content someone wants to watch is a pretty personal thing. More titles doesn't mean much if they are not something you want to watch, of course it should increase your odds of finding something of interest.

I have noticed something interesting at work, people really like to be watching what other people are watching so they can talk about it. No one likes it when someone says don't talk about that, I DVRed it and haven't watched it yet. Many of the people with DVRs still watch the popular shows the same night they are broadcast for that reason.

Thanks,


----------



## mikeyts

Amazon's biggest weakness vis-a-vis Netflix is the lack of a queue. You can create a wishlist or wishlists at Amazon's site and dump Prime titles into it, but you can't see those wishlists on the devices with embedded players.


----------



## morac

mikeyts said:


> Amazon's biggest weakness vis-a-vis Netflix is the lack of a queue. You can create a wishlist or wishlists at Amazon's site and dump Prime titles into it, but you can't see those wishlists on the devices with embedded players.


That wouldn't even make top two weaknesses on my list. Those would be lack of device support (Netflix supports a lot more devices, including portable ones) and lack of titles.


----------



## mikeyts

morac said:


> That wouldn't even make top two weaknesses on my list. Those would be lack of device support (Netflix supports a lot more devices, including portable ones) and lack of titles.


Netflix has been streaming to embedded devices for longer (although I think that Amazon's download VOD on PCs and TiVos predates Netflix's streaming, but I might be wrong about that). The list of Amazon streaming devices (on which the TiVos should currently be discounted) seems decently long. My Roku 2 and my BD player (Panasonic DMP-BDT110) both have Amazon streamers. They should, however, work on getting players on both Xbox and PS3, but that's probably not entirely up to them.

EDIT: I was right--Amazon's "Unbox" service, which launched on 7 September 2006, predates Netflix's "Watch Now", which launched in mid-January 2007. Amazon didn't start streaming until September 2008, whereas Netflix never did anything else, so they've been streaming for 1.75 years longer than Amazon, an eternity in consumer electronics time .


----------



## aaronwt

Fofer said:


> Via what device are you accessing VUDU? The VUDU box itself? PS3? Just curious.


I use my Boxee Boxes as my main viewing devices for VUDU.


----------



## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> What content someone wants to watch is a pretty personal thing. More titles doesn't mean much if they are not something you want to watch, of course it should increase your odds of finding something of interest.
> 
> I have noticed something interesting at work, people really like to be watching what other people are watching so they can talk about it. No one likes it when someone says don't talk about that, I DVRed it and haven't watched it yet. Many of the people with DVRs still watch the popular shows the same night they are broadcast for that reason.
> 
> Thanks,


Alot of the titles are the same for both services but for the total number of titles Netflix has more so I'm more likely to find something to watch on Netflix. I'm close to 100 titles in my Netflix Instant streaming queue. Of course Amazon is a great deal as an addition to a Prime membership. And of course the more VOD sources you have, the more likely you will find something you want to watch.

For what Amazon streaming currently is, an addition to Amazon Prime, it's a great value. But they need to increase their offerings to have it get to the point where you purchase a Prime membership to specfically get the streaming.

I still need to decide if I'm going to renew my Prime membership this year. I'm not ordering from Amazon like I used to. And if they offer FiOS VOD on the Xbox 360 that will give me even more VOD options so I might hold off renewing it. And of course I finally got an Amazon streaming device when the Roku2 came out. And now I might not be using it like I thought.


----------



## Beryl

aaronwt said:


> I still need to decide if I'm going to renew my Prime membership this year. I'm not ordering from Amazon like I used to.


This just financial wisdom, Aaron.

Today, I break even with shipping in two months with Prime and save lots of money around the holidays so the movie streaming is only icing. If my buying habits change, I will rethink Prime as well. Netflix, today, has far more titles so I'd likely find more that I want to watch with that service for only $16 more per year. I'm just anticipate a significant increase in titles when the Amazon Fire is released an even more 1Q12 when the next Amazon tablet is offered.


----------



## MOFD

Beryl said:


> Have you considered Power-line? I like Netgear's offerings.


+1 for the Netgear Powerline adapters. I have an old house with thick plaster walls, so WiFi access can be problematic. Wired connections are always going to be better anyway, so why not use the electrical wiring that's already built-in to every house?


----------



## aadam101

Beryl said:


> This just financial wisdom, Aaron.
> 
> Today, I break even with shipping in two months with Prime and save lots of money around the holidays so the movie streaming is only icing. If my buying habits change, I will rethink Prime as well. Netflix, today, has far more titles so I'd likely find more that I want to watch with that service for only $16 more per year. I'm just anticipate a significant increase in titles when the Amazon Fire is released an even more 1Q12 when the next Amazon tablet is offered.


I agree. I am a Prime Member anyway and would continue to be with or without streaming. I checked out the selection the other night and couldn't find a single thing I wanted to watch.


----------



## Beryl

aadam101 said:


> I checked out the selection the other night and couldn't find a single thing I wanted to watch.


I have to search for good things on Prime but I scored last week with the old Mission Impossible shows. I remembered why I loved it as a kid -- classic.


----------



## recon6196

I started a chat session with a TiVo tech today about streaming Amazon VOD to the TiVo. She told me that if you want to have a feature added the best thing to do is to fill out the New Feature request form. So here's the link if anyone else is interested. If more of us ask for it, hopefully the quicker they'll add it.

research.tivo.com/suggestions/2web519.htm

Sorry I can't post links properly yet.


----------



## Fofer

Honestly, I have no faith whatsoever that asking for it via a web form will do anything, or that anyone reads them. The sheer embarrassment of TiVo being the ONLY DEVICE ON THE MARKET, out of a list of hundreds, that can't access these particular Amazon videos, should be enough to compel them to fix it already. This asterisk is shameful:










They are the red-headed stepchild and they know it. I don't think it's a priority to them to fix it, or they don't have the resources. It's that simple and that sad.


----------



## twhiting9275

Fofer said:


> Honestly, I have no faith whatsoever that asking for it via a web form will do anything, or that anyone reads them. The sheer embarrassment of TiVo being the ONLY DEVICE ON THE MARKET, out of a list of hundreds, that can't access these particular Amazon videos, should be enough to compel them to fix it already. This asterisk is shameful:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are the red-headed stepchild and they know it. I don't think it's a priority to them to fix it, or they don't have the resources. It's that simple and that sad.


blah blah blah blah whine whine whine whine gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme. I swear, there's nothing that will keep you people happy. If it's not this, it's that. If it's not that, it's the other thing. If it's not the other thing, it's something else. Good LORD, deal with it already.



sbiller said:


> Correct. TiVo has unofficially confirmed through multiple sources that they are working on support of true Amazon streaming (to be compatible with Amazon Prime Instant Video).


It's been TEN MONTHS, get a bit of patience would you? Tivo's got to completely (and I do mean completely) reprogram the way everything is done as far as amazon is concerned in order for this to happen. They don't get it right? Ya'll will be RIGHT back here whining and groaning, pissing and moaning that they left something out.. WAIT for it, be PATIENT (and no, 10 months isn't being "patient" by any means).

They've SAID they were fixing it, give them TIME to do so!


----------



## hefe

My sarcasm detector must be broken, because it's not making a peep.


----------



## Addy

10 months is not being patient? Sorry if my internet sarcasm detector is not working?


----------



## Fofer

Ten months in this space is an eternity. I don't believe TiVo is working on this any more than they're working on YouTube playlists ..._which have been broken for over two years_.

I "dealt" with it by buying a Roku box (that sits nicely alongside my AppleTV.) Both are less than $100 and both run millions of circles around TiVo's paltry Internet offerings. And neither has any subscription fee (or lifetime service) required. One time fee. And they do the trick.

I'll participate now in these threads merely to shake my head at how far and fast TiVo has fallen. As it stands now I only use it for broadcast TV and the fact of the matter is, I'm not watching much of that these days anymore. I've got too much content to enjoy from other avenues. It would have been great if TiVo was able to adapt to this sea change, and had the same kind of access and services that this tiny Roku box does. Alas, they dropped the ball. They've given up. I'm spreading the word so no one buys a TiVo thinking it's good for anything OTHER than time-shifting broadcast and cable television. Any and all of it's current Internet offerings, and promises for future ones, are an absolute, pathetic joke.


----------



## djwilso

Same here. I've had my original Roku since 2008 and got a second one (XDS) in 2010.

They work great. I never use the Netflix or Amazon apps on TiVo (except to test my new Premiere Elite) as they do not even begin to compare.


----------



## dswallow

Are all the menus on my Premiere in HD yet?

TiVo is simply in the most pathetic state it's been in, ever, and it actually manages to find ways to become even more pathetic almost every week.

They've all but abandoned the US direct-purchase market. At best, we get lip-service nowadays.

As for Amazon Prime videos, I think there's 20 other devices in my home, all capable of receiving Amazon Prime video, as well as numerous other video services. I think my next microwave will probably offer Amazon Prime Video support before TiVo does.


----------



## twhiting9275

Addy said:


> 10 months is not being patient? Sorry if my internet sarcasm detector is not working?


No, it isn't.
What, you expect Tivo to just drop EVERYTHING and move right on fixing this problem? Sorry, that's NOT going to happen. There are more critical issues for them to address, and this WILL involve a major recode of how the devices deal with Amazon stuff.

When it was initially introduced, years ago, downloading was the way to go with this stuff. There was really no 'instant' viewing. Since, every other device has brought up the demand for 'instant' viewing. Unfortunately, Tivo's been slow to respond, BUT as anyone who's had any experience with programming knows, you can't just throw something in and hope it works, you have to test this stuff thoroughly.

How long do we wait for Windows updates? How long do we wait for software updates? Typically, MAJOR releases are done once a year. Whining about something 10 months in is, in fact being impatient. They've said it's coming. Sit back, WAIT, show a bit of patience!!


----------



## hefe

I guess the detector was working fine after all.

For something like this, 10 months is a long time. You can apologize for TiVo, I'm sure they appreciate your loyalty, but in this business, adapt or die.

When I buy somebody else's DVR next time, TiVo will be calling after me..."no, wait...just another 10 months...we promise..."


----------



## hefe

So, on the topic of Amazon Instant Streaming for device that can actually do it, does anybody really use it? I don't have a home theater setup that can use it right now, so the only time I've looked at their offerings were online to check out what they had.

I found the interface to be horrible. It wasn't really separated from Amazon's other video for purchase. Browsing for content was confusing, there was no queue...how are people actually watching Amazon stuff. Do the individual clients have better interfaces?


----------



## Fofer

twhiting9275 said:


> No, it isn't.
> What, you expect Tivo to just drop EVERYTHING and move right on fixing this problem? Sorry, that's NOT going to happen. There are more critical issues for them to address, and this WILL involve a major recode of how the devices deal with Amazon stuff.
> 
> When it was initially introduced, years ago, downloading was the way to go with this stuff. There was really no 'instant' viewing. Since, every other device has brought up the demand for 'instant' viewing. Unfortunately, Tivo's been slow to respond, BUT as anyone who's had any experience with programming knows, you can't just throw something in and hope it works, you have to test this stuff thoroughly.
> 
> How long do we wait for Windows updates? How long do we wait for software updates? Typically, MAJOR releases are done once a year. Whining about something 10 months in is, in fact being impatient. They've said it's coming. Sit back, WAIT, show a bit of patience!!


Oh, please. I have a $60 Blu Ray that supports Amazon Instant Prime. So do any of the Rokus, and there's a new one that's $50. It didn't take _a year_ for those guys. If TiVo's so incapable of integrating support for this&#8230; if it's such a "MAJOR RECODE..." then they've done something drastically, horribly wrong along the way. It's not like Hulu Plus is so nicely integrated into TiVo's OS, is it? It's a totally separate app. As is Netflix (and heck, their Netflix sucks, so long as we're talking about it.) Even their YouTube is the worst. Broken. And they know it. They just are incapable of fixing it. Their interns are overwhelmed, I suppose.

Hey twhiting9275, wanna make a bet?

One year from now (assuming they're still in business) TiVo will _still not_ support Amazon Instant Prime on the TiVo Premiere units they are selling today.

If they do, I'll buy you a Roku. If they don't, you buy me a second one. Deal?


----------



## Fofer

dswallow said:


> Are all the menus on my Premiere in HD yet?


Nope.

If this were my company and this was my flagship product I would be ashamed. Such an embarrassing mess, it all is.

And I'd sure as heck get rid of any and all marketing that touted this as the "One box."

"One box?" HA! Yeah, right. It's the one box I'm thinking I should get rid of.



dswallow said:


> TiVo is simply in the most pathetic state it's been in, ever, and it actually manages to find ways to become even more pathetic almost every week.
> 
> They've all but abandoned the US direct-purchase market. At best, we get lip-service nowadays.
> 
> As for Amazon Prime videos, I think there's 20 other devices in my home, all capable of receiving Amazon Prime video, as well as numerous other video services. I think my next microwave will probably offer Amazon Prime Video support before TiVo does.


Seriously. The $49 Roku (coming soon) can handle Amazon Instant Prime, HBO GO, Netflix, Hulu Plus, Pandora, Crackle and thousands more. The few of these that TiVo offers, have the worst user experience out of any set-top box out there. Anyone able to defend them in this particular discussion just isn't paying attention.


----------



## aadam101

twhiting9275 said:


> No, it isn't.
> What, you expect Tivo to just drop EVERYTHING and move right on fixing this problem?


I don't think anyone expects that. Amazon didn't just come out with this streaming service overnight. They probably had a year or two of development before they released it. This means Tivo has had 2-3 years to develop this.

10 months is an eternity in this business. There are DOZENS of other devices that can stream Amazon. There is no good reason that Tivo cannot. They are the *ONLY device that CHARGES you* for the pleasure of using the Amazon app and the *ONLY device that doesn't offer streaming*......hmmmm


----------



## Fofer

hefe said:


> So, on the topic of Amazon Instant Streaming for device that can actually do it, does anybody really sue it? I don't have a home theater setup that can use it right now, so the only time I've looked at their offerings were online to check out what they had.
> 
> I found the interface to be horrible. It wasn't really separated from Amazon's other video for purchase. Browsing for content was confusing, there was no queue...how are people actually watching Amazon stuff. Do the individual clients have better interfaces?


I use it, on my Sony Blu Ray and also my Roku. The lack of a queue is off-putting, but the streaming PQ is good. The library seems to keep improving. I enjoy it for some older TV and some classic movies. Netflix's streaming library is better, but not by much. Still, I get access to this for free as a Prime customer, so my expectations are low.

I'm just embarrassed for TiVo these days. And I used to be a big evangelist. No more. They don't deserve any accolades.


----------



## Fofer

aadam101 said:


> There are DOZENS of other devices that can stream Amazon.


Dozens? More like hundreds:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/ontv/devices


----------



## twhiting9275

Fofer said:


> Oh, please. I have a $60 Blu Ray that supports Amazon Instant Prime. So do any of the Rokus, and there's a new one that's $50. It didn't take _a year_ for those guys. If TiVo's so incapable of integrating support for this&#8230; if it's such a "MAJOR RECODE..." then they've done something drastically, horribly wrong along the way.


And, you completely fail to even grasp the point here.
Here's a little reference for you.

2006 (*five years ago*): Tivo was the FIRST partner to offer this service. At this time, it was DOWNLOAD ONLY. This was back when it was 'unbox', what, 3 series' ago now? Since the S2, Tivo's offered this service.

Somewhere along the line, Amazon changed how things work. It went from a 'download' (primarily) service to a 'streaming' (primarily) service. THAT is when everyone else picked up the ball and started rolling with it. Since day 1, Tivo's been right there with them, though.

Now, here we are, some 8 (sorry, it's not 10, my bad) months later, AFTER this instant change, and what, you expect Tivo to just drop everything, rework the code to adapt to something that WASN'T there in the beginning? Oh, and you expect this done OVERNIGHT? NO, get real!

It never ceases to amaze me the impatience of individuals. If we were talking years down the road, yeah, I'd say it's an issue. Hell, VideoRedo's had the same nagging issue for better than 5 years with QSF code, yet it gets a pass, while you insist Tivo rewrite major code functions in 8 months?? REALLY?

They have said they're fixing it, give them time to do it. YES, everyone else has already done it, but everyone ELSE was a late adapter to the program, AFTER things were handled a bit differently.


----------



## hefe

Fofer said:


> Dozens? More like hundreds:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/ontv/devices


That page lists TiVo devices.


----------



## smbaker

Fofer said:


> I'm just embarrassed for TiVo these days. And I used to be a big evangelist. No more. They don't deserve any accolades.


I feel the same way. It annoys me that I'm going to have to buy another device to watch Amazon Prime. I shouldn't have to do that; I paid good money for this Tivo box, and the fact that it's a paid subscription box makes it all the worse. It should be better than competing subscription-free devices, not worse.

I used to recommend Tivo to everyone I knew. I don't anymore.

It's too bad someone can't go back and change the name of this thread to: "Tivo doesn't support Amazon Prime", after all that's what the thread is about.


----------



## Fofer

mikeyts said:


> That's because it's a list of all Amazon Instant Video players and not just the streaming ones. All of the pay VOD Amazon titles can be downloaded for playback on TiVo (and PC) but the Prime Instant Video is streaming-only.


Yep. It's the same reason we see this&#8230; with that glaring "I'm a red-headed stepchild!" asterisk that singles out TiVo:










That list I linked to upthread should have an asterisk next to the TiVos, too. It's misleading otherwise.



mikeyts said:


> TiVo was the very first embedded Amazon VOD player, created when there was no streaming, just download to TiVo or PC. They've essentially not updated it since.


There hasn't been a single update to ANY of the Internet apps they bring in, has there? YouTube is still broken, Netflix still sucks, Pandora's the same&#8230; 
I think they've lost all their good engineers, who cashed out long ago&#8230; and now they outsource everything and don't have maintenance contracts. It's all just hanging on by a thread.


----------



## mikeyts

hefe said:


> That page lists TiVo devices.


That's because it's a list of all Amazon Instant Video players and not just the streaming ones. All of the pay VOD Amazon titles can be downloaded for playback on TiVo (and PC) but the Prime Instant Video is streaming-only.

TiVo was the very first embedded Amazon VOD player, created when there was no streaming, just download to TiVo or PC. They've essentially not updated it since.

The advantage of downloading is that it doesn't require any particularly amount of bandwidth. Bandwidth too low to stream can be used to download and though it might take all day to get something, when you've got it it's at the best SD quality level with 5.1 sound if it was available (no HD downloads from Amazon yet). You can both download and stream on a PC.


----------



## Fofer

twhiting9275 said:


> And, you completely fail to even grasp the point here.
> Here's a little reference for you.
> 
> 2006 (*five years ago*): Tivo was the FIRST partner to offer this service. At this time, it was DOWNLOAD ONLY. This was back when it was 'unbox', what, 3 series' ago now? Since the S2, Tivo's offered this service.
> 
> Somewhere along the line, Amazon changed how things work. It went from a 'download' (primarily) service to a 'streaming' (primarily) service. THAT is when everyone else picked up the ball and started rolling with it. Since day 1, Tivo's been right there with them, though.
> 
> Now, here we are, some 8 (sorry, it's not 10, my bad) months later, AFTER this instant change, and what, you expect Tivo to just drop everything, rework the code to adapt to something that WASN'T there in the beginning? Oh, and you expect this done OVERNIGHT? NO, get real!
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me the impatience of individuals. If we were talking years down the road, yeah, I'd say it's an issue. Hell, VideoRedo's had the same nagging issue for better than 5 years with QSF code, yet it gets a pass, while you insist Tivo rewrite major code functions in 8 months?? REALLY?
> 
> They have said they're fixing it, give them time to do it. YES, everyone else has already done it, but everyone ELSE was a late adapter to the program, AFTER things were handled a bit differently.


No, you're the one who's completely missing the point. They've said they're "fixing it?" Where? Link please. All we have is vague, shifty Twitter updates that they're "working on it" -- which means precisely nothing.

Just because they were first with Amazon VOD means nothing to me. I have no sympathy for them, why should I? "Adapt or die" is the key phrase here. And TiVo is dying, dying, dying. It's patently obvious.

I am not expecting anything "overnight." I'd like bug fixes to the things that have been reported for YEARS and I'd like to see support for new, popular services. Somehow Roku managed to do it, I'd expect TiVo to somehow be nimble enough to figure it out. This isn't about time -- it's about priority and resources. TiVo is lacking on all fronts, and that is why customers are noticing, and leaving in droves. This is not the kind of development and support I expect to see from a product that has a subscription fee attached to it.

Roku, with a $49 box (ONE TIME FEE) is making TiVo look like grade school kids on the short bus.

The day my Premiere has a fully HD UI&#8230; perhaps... a _little_ of this shame will dissipate. Even then it's so overdue, it's embarrassing. Your standards and expectations must be really low if you think any of this is acceptable. Man, this is a company that has completely lost its way.


----------



## smbaker

Fofer said:


> Man, this is a company that has completely lost its way.


For a company that sells products direct to consumers, they have lost their way. I'm not sure that's the company they want to be any more. They did adapt; it's just that they adapted to something that's unrecognizable to us.

We're only getting features that are leftovers from Tivo's work with cablecos. Would we really be getting streaming or 4-tuner DVRs had Tivo's "partners" not wanted it? If Tivo's partners want an updated Amazon interface, then maybe we'll see it. My guess is they don't care about Amazon (at best) or would actively like to see it fail (at worst).

Tivo was a caterpillar that we hoped would use the Internet to morph into a butterfly. Instead it turned into an ugly moth that keeps flying into the light bulb, and will most likely die there.


----------



## mikeyts

Fofer said:


> There hasn't been a single update to ANY of the Internet apps they bring in, has there? YouTube is still broken, Netflix still sucks, Pandora's the same


They patched Netflix to make it handle the unified television series titles, but they didn't update the GUI.

I don't think that there's been any exodus of good engineers from TiVo--I shared an office at Kyocera Wireless for a few years with a guy who's been there for several years now and I know he's good. I've been to their Los Gatos R&D facility and it's an excellent place to work.

I just don't think that their focus is largely on the standalone retail devices anymore. There's no way that they can stem the loss of subs to leased cable and satellite DVRs, which have become pretty decent--it's a dying business which can't be revived.


----------



## djwilso

twhiting9275 said:


> No, it isn't.
> What, you expect Tivo to just drop EVERYTHING and move right on fixing this problem? Sorry, that's NOT going to happen. There are more critical issues for them to address, and this WILL involve a major recode of how the devices deal with Amazon stuff.
> 
> When it was initially introduced, years ago, downloading was the way to go with this stuff. There was really no 'instant' viewing. Since, every other device has brought up the demand for 'instant' viewing. Unfortunately, Tivo's been slow to respond, BUT as anyone who's had any experience with programming knows, you can't just throw something in and hope it works, you have to test this stuff thoroughly.
> 
> How long do we wait for Windows updates? How long do we wait for software updates? Typically, MAJOR releases are done once a year. Whining about something 10 months in is, in fact being impatient. They've said it's coming. Sit back, WAIT, show a bit of patience!!


If I recall correctly, the Roku offered an update to their Amazon channel the same week that "Prime Instant Videos" was unveiled.

Maybe even on the same day. And it worked on the first day without any notable bugs that I recall.

If something is deemed important, resources will be used to work on it. Otherwise, we could potentially be waiting for years.

Witness the Premiere HD menus, Netflix app, HD DirecTiVo.

I have to give TiVo credit and say that their Pandora app is really good. I was most impressed when I first saw it and still use it now.


----------



## djwilso

Fofer said:


> Seriously. The $49 Roku (coming soon) can handle Amazon Instant Prime, HBO GO, Netflix, Hulu Plus, Pandora, Crackle *and thousands more*. The few of these that TiVo offers, have the worst user experience out of any set-top box out there. Anyone able to defend them in this particular discussion just isn't paying attention.


Thousands? Sorry to nitpick, but I think they are up to about 320 channels at the moment once they add HBO GO, and 95% of them are not worth watching.

The potential is there with the Channel Store, of course, but please try to contain your enthusiasm within the confines of the truth.


----------



## aaronwt

Fofer said:


> Ten months in this space is an eternity. I don't believe TiVo is working on this any more than they're working on YouTube playlists ...which have been broken for over two years.
> 
> I "dealt" with it by buying a Roku box (that sits nicely alongside my AppleTV.) Both are less than $100 and both run millions of circles around TiVo's paltry Internet offerings. And neither has any subscription fee (or lifetime service) required. One time fee. And they do the trick.
> 
> I'll participate now in these threads merely to shake my head at how far and fast TiVo has fallen. As it stands now I only use it for broadcast TV and the fact of the matter is, I'm not watching much of that these days anymore. I've got too much content to enjoy from other avenues. It would have been great if TiVo was able to adapt to this sea change, and had the same kind of access and services that this tiny Roku box does. Alas, they dropped the ball. They've given up. I'm spreading the word so no one buys a TiVo thinking it's good for anything OTHER than time-shifting broadcast and cable television. Any and all of it's current Internet offerings, and promises for future ones, are an absolute, pathetic joke.


Pandora works great


----------



## djwilso

mikeyts said:


> TiVo was the very first embedded Amazon VOD player, created when there was no streaming, just download to TiVo or PC. They've essentially not updated it since.
> 
> The advantage of downloading is that it doesn't require any particularly amount of bandwidth. Bandwidth too low to stream can be used to download and though it might take all day to get something, when you've got it it's at the best SD quality level with 5.1 sound if it was available (no HD downloads from Amazon yet). You can both download and stream on a PC.


TiVo has updated the Amazon app. They updated it when Amazon started offering their content in HD and with 5.1 sound.

I'm not sure what you mean above by "no HD downloads from Amazon yet". This is not accurate. Amazon does let you download to TiVo in HD.

Maybe I misunderstood.


----------



## aaronwt

mikeyts said:


> That's because it's a list of all Amazon Instant Video players and not just the streaming ones. All of the pay VOD Amazon titles can be downloaded for playback on TiVo (and PC) but the Prime Instant Video is streaming-only.
> 
> TiVo was the very first embedded Amazon VOD player, created when there was no streaming, just download to TiVo or PC. They've essentially not updated it since.
> 
> The advantage of downloading is that it doesn't require any particularly amount of bandwidth. Bandwidth too low to stream can be used to download and though it might take all day to get something, when you've got it it's at the best SD quality level with 5.1 sound if it was available (no HD downloads from Amazon yet). You can both download and stream on a PC.


Ive been downloading HD from Amazon since I got my Premieres in Spring 2010. There were several shows I watched in 1080P24 from Amazon downloads on my Premieres.


----------



## Fofer

smbaker said:


> Tivo was a caterpillar that we hoped would use the Internet to morph into a butterfly. Instead it turned into an ugly moth that keeps flying into the light bulb, and will most likely die there.


Well said!


----------



## smbaker

djwilso said:


> Thousands? Sorry to nitpick, but I think they are up to about 320 channels at the moment once they add HBO GO, and 95% of them are not worth watching.


Perhaps he meant .32 thousands. 

320 with no subscription fee is still a whole lot better than Tivos half dozen (don't shoot me, I'm guesstimating) or so with a whopping huge monthly subscription fee.

I don't have a Roku (yet), but I suspect Roku got the open platform design right, whereas Tivo did not. You see very few Tivo HMO/HME apps developed, but you see a lot of Roku apps. If Tivo had done things right, the user community could be doing a lot of their work for them. But... Tivo isn't that kind of company.


----------



## Beryl

dswallow said:


> Are all the menus on my Premiere in HD yet?


Heck, I've done so many <Thumbs down, Thumbs up, Pause, Pause> sequences that can't keep ANY HD Premiere menus. I'd be happy I'd they'd fix the existing bugs. .

My Panasonic Blu-Ray player handles Amazon Prime and a lot of other things quite nicely. I stopped looking for TiVo improvements in this arena.


----------



## Fofer

Beryl said:


> Heck, I've done so many <Thumbs down, Thumbs up, Pause, Pause> sequences that can't keep ANY HD Premiere menus. I'd be happy I'd they'd fix the existing bugs. .


Seriously. If there's any wonder, if TiVo "gets" the Internet, one needs to simply visit this page:

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1722

It's shameful, really.


----------



## djwilso

Fofer said:


> Seriously. If there's any wonder, if TiVo "gets" the Internet, one needs to simply visit this page:
> 
> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1722
> 
> It's shameful, really.


Wow, I had no idea this was the case. It seems really crippled when there is no Internet connection.


----------



## Fofer

Whoever pushed forth the idea to tie _so much_ of the menus and basic functionality of a set-top box (that's meant to timeshift broadcast and cable television) to an active and speedy internet connection, should be drawn and quartered. That was just a bad, bad, bad decision.


----------



## twhiting9275

djwilso said:


> If I recall correctly, the Roku offered an update to their Amazon channel the same week that "Prime Instant Videos" was unveiled.


As did my Sony devices. Again, you fail to see the point here.
This software has been around and integrated for *6 years* now. It goes ALL the way back to the s2, 6 years now. You can't simply just 'change' something that integrated overnight, and yes, it IS a major change.

While I'm not familiar with how their process works, I know that these videos can not be downloaded. This means that they have to redesign the system to stream these videos (which will also take away the downloads). This ISN'T as easy as flipping a switch, it involves some pretty complex setups, and you have to make sure they're compatable with a backlog of devices (6 years + older). Again, not exactly like flipping a switch.


----------



## twhiting9275

djwilso said:


> Wow, I had no idea this was the case. It seems really crippled when there is no Internet connection.


Oh, it is VERY crippled when there's no internet connection. A LOT of poor assumptions are made in this case (or it's deliberate, which seems likely).


----------



## Fofer

twhiting9275 said:


> As did my Sony devices. Again, you fail to see the point here.
> This software has been around and integrated for *6 years* now. It goes ALL the way back to the s2, 6 years now. You can't simply just 'change' something that integrated overnight, and yes, it IS a major change.
> 
> While I'm not familiar with how their process works, I know that these videos can not be downloaded. This means that they have to redesign the system to stream these videos (which will also take away the downloads). This ISN'T as easy as flipping a switch, it involves some pretty complex setups, and you have to make sure they're compatable with a backlog of devices (6 years + older). Again, not exactly like flipping a switch.


Huh?

Why can't they just add a different channel for Amazon Prime Instant Streaming, just like they did for Hulu Plus, Netflix and Blockbuster? We're not asking that downloadable videos be streamed, or streamable videos be downloaded. Why can't they just ADD this capability for the library that supports it? There's no need to re-engineer anything that's already in place.

Given the right access, I'd bet a very small team of programmers could create an appropriate client for Amazon Instant Prime on the TiVo Premiere, inside of 3 months.

I'd bet you dollars to donuts this is NOT being worked on at TiVo. It's not a priority, not in the slightest. The "support" we have for Amazon VOD right now is all we're going to get.


----------



## Fofer

twhiting9275 said:


> Oh, it is VERY crippled when there's no internet connection. A LOT of poor assumptions are made in this case (or it's deliberate, which seems likely).


And why would it be deliberate? Are you now saying they've _intentionally_ made a brain-dead UI, that relies on an Internet connection for basic menus to work?

Worst. Decision. Ever.


----------



## smbaker

twhiting9275 said:


> As did my Sony devices. Again, you fail to see the point here.
> This software has been around and integrated for *6 years* now. It goes ALL the way back to the s2, 6 years now. You can't simply just 'change' something that integrated overnight, and yes, it IS a major change.


I don't see how having a legacy Amazon plugin integrated for 6 years impacts whether or not they can develop and install a new Amazon plugin that supports streaming. Have two Amazon clients, if it's that big of an issue.

If Sony and Roku can develop Streaming Amazon plugins, then Tivo can too.



twhiting9275 said:


> Again, not exactly like flipping a switch.


Not but it is exactly like toggling a bit. 

[specifically, the bit to enable the new client]


----------



## mikeyts

aaronwt said:


> Ive been downloading HD from Amazon since I got my Premieres in Spring 2010. There were several shows I watched in 1080P24 from Amazon downloads on my Premieres.


I'm sorry--I misspoke. I damn well knew that there were HD downloads for Amazon for _TiVo_ (only HD TV episodes downloadable to PC). I don't know what I was thinking about.


----------



## aaronwt

Fofer said:


> Huh?
> 
> Why can't they just add a different channel for Amazon Prime Instant Streaming, just like they did for Hulu Plus, Netflix and Blockbuster? ..


Because TiVo has applications. Roku has "channels".


----------



## djwilso

twhiting9275 said:


> As did my Sony devices. Again, you fail to see the point here.
> This software has been around and integrated for *6 years* now. It goes ALL the way back to the s2, 6 years now. You can't simply just 'change' something that integrated overnight, and yes, it IS a major change.


The Amazon app has not gone unchanged for its entire lifespan. The app underwent changes when Amazon introduced HD.

So, it can be changed. It HAS been changed. As others have suggested, TiVo could even build a separate application if the current one is SO hard to change.


----------



## aadam101

djwilso said:


> So, it can be changed. It HAS been changed. As others have suggested, TiVo could even build a separate application if the current one is SO hard to change.


Some people seem to think that is soooooo hard to do. The fact is that THOUSANDS of new apps are being introduced for hundreds (maybe even thousands) of devices every single week. Tivo has no excuse for this or the Netflix app.


----------



## twhiting9275

Fofer said:


> Why can't they just add a different channel for Amazon Prime Instant Streaming, just like they did for Hulu Plus, Netflix and Blockbuster?


NOT all devices support these.
Netflix - S3 and up
Hulu - Premiere and up

It's NOT as simple as making things compatible with just ONE device. The system must universally be changed in this case



Fofer said:


> And why would it be deliberate? Are you now saying they've _intentionally_ made a brain-dead UI, that relies on an Internet connection for basic menus to work?


Of course they are. Their entire SYSTEM relies on internet access now. No internet = zero access. This isn't a mistake, it's by design.



Fofer said:


> Worst. Decision. Ever.


Not from the company's perspective. Yes, from the customer's perspective, it's annoying, and yes it's probably one of the worst decisions, BUT companies aren't designed for the "customer's perspective", never have been. You don't become a mega-conglomerate by simply building your device strictly for the "customer perspective", you lose business very quickly that way



djwilso said:


> The Amazon app has not gone unchanged for its entire lifespan. The app underwent changes when Amazon introduced HD.


Adding a menu option is NOT the same thing as adding and removing features and conditional access.It's nowhere NEAR the same thing.



aadam101 said:


> Some people seem to think that is soooooo hard to do. The fact is that THOUSANDS of new apps are being introduced for hundreds (maybe even thousands) of devices every single week. Tivo has no excuse for this or the Netflix app.


And some people seem to think that it's so easy to program an application that would affect millions of devices across 3 generations. Get a little bit of a clue regarding programming before you make such statements. It is NOT that simple to do this. If it was, hey, it would have been done already.

It took Tivo 9 months to get Hulu from announcement to working (non-beta), it will take them time to get this implemented as well. PATIENCE is key here. You can throw childish temper tantrums, demanding it be done now, now, now, all you want, nobody cares. The world does not revolve 'instantly'.


----------



## Fofer

Wanna take that bet, though?

Uh huh. That's what I thought.


P.S. If you think any new apps, like the mythical new Amazon Prime Instant Streamer, would arrive on any device OTHER than the Premiere... you are seriously not paying attention.


----------



## slowbiscuit

twhiting9275 said:


> While I'm not familiar with how their process works, I know that these videos can not be downloaded. This means that they have to redesign the system to stream these videos (which will also take away the downloads). This ISN'T as easy as flipping a switch, it involves some pretty complex setups, and you have to make sure they're compatable with a backlog of devices (6 years + older). Again, not exactly like flipping a switch.


Tivos stream Netflix and Youtube every day. I'm sorry, but you're the only one here claiming that this is a BIG DEAL. Everyone else is wondering why Tivo is asleep at the wheel.

I think smbaker and mikeyts have it right - Tivo is in bed with the cableCos now so all new dev and fixes are geared towards making the product work better with them. Everything else gains them nothing (in their eyes), even though most of their customers aren't getting the service that they're paying for. You can't roll out apps and then (mostly) abandon them, but that seems to be the pattern - Rhapsody is another case in point.


----------



## aadam101

twhiting9275 said:


> It took Tivo 9 months to get Hulu from announcement to working (non-beta), it will take them time to get this implemented as well. PATIENCE is key here. You can throw childish temper tantrums, demanding it be done now, now, now, all you want, nobody cares. The world does not revolve 'instantly'.


So it is easy for dozens of other device manufacturers? Tivo is the ONLY one who has a difficult time with it? You must really not have much faith in Tivo's programming abilities. Nobody is asking for anything to happen "instantly." Tivo has had a minimum of two years to get this up and running.


----------



## Fofer

twhiting9275 said:


> Of course they are. Their entire SYSTEM relies on internet access now. No internet = zero access. This isn't a mistake, it's by design.
> 
> Not from the company's perspective. Yes, from the customer's perspective, it's annoying, and yes it's probably one of the worst decisions, BUT companies aren't designed for the "customer's perspective", never have been. You don't become a mega-conglomerate by simply building your device strictly for the "customer perspective", you lose business very quickly that way


Please tell me then, how making a television DVR that relies entirely on internet access, is beneficial from the COMPANY'S perspective? How does it benefit the COMPANY, that our television settop box is largely inoperable in HDUI mode when the internet goes out?

If a company doesn't focus enough on the "customer's perspective," you know what happens? They lose customers. And guess what's happened to TiVo?

Circling the drain, is what it is...


----------



## aadam101

slowbiscuit said:


> Tivo is in bed with the cableCos now so all new dev and fixes are geared towards making the product work better with them. Everything else gains them nothing (in their eyes), even though most of their customers aren't getting the service that they're paying for. You can't roll out apps and then (mostly) abandon them, but that seems to be the pattern - Rhapsody is another case in point.


I think Tivo's only concern now is to get OnDemand up and running on Tivo. This is probably more difficult than a new Amazon app since they have to deal with the cable operators. On the other hand, I am sure they have a massive team of engineers at their disposal.


----------



## Fofer

aadam101 said:


> So it is easy for dozens of other device manufacturers? Tivo is the ONLY one who has a difficult time with it? You must really not have much faith in Tivo's programming abilities. Nobody is asking for anything to happen "instantly." Tivo has had a minimum of two years to get this up and running.


And I'm betting they are not even working on it. No concrete plans at all. We're getting lip service, that's all.


----------



## atmuscarella

Fofer said:


> How does it benefit the COMPANY, that our television settop box is largely inoperable in HDUI mode when the internet goes out?


My Premiere operates just fine when my Internet access goes down. If anything the HDUI works faster as it stops trying to download stuff from the TiVo servers.

From what I can see at this time there are only issues when you still have Internet access but are for some reason having troubles connecting to TiVo's servers reliably.

Of course I still don't understand why TiVo doesn't have the Premiere just cache most stuff as it is fairly static.


----------



## Fofer

atmuscarella said:


> If anything the HDUI works faster as it stops trying to download stuff from the TiVo servers.


Yeesh. This is what I'm talking about. Embarrassing implementation, this is.



atmuscarella said:


> Of course I still don't understand why TiVo doesn't have the Premiere just cache most stuff as it is fairly static.


Yep. Again, as I said: Worst. Decision. Ever.


----------



## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> My Premiere operates just fine when my Internet access goes down. If anything the HDUI works faster as it stops trying to download stuff from the TiVo servers.
> 
> From what I can see at this time there are only issues when you still have Internet access but are for some reason having troubles connecting to TiVo's servers reliably.
> 
> Of course I still don't understand why TiVo doesn't have the Premiere just cache most stuff as it is fairly static.


The discovery bar is always changing on my boxes depending on what show I'm looking at. And of course when search for something it also changes and shows some content related to what I searched for. I don't see how caching would do much good since it always seems to be loading new data on my boxes.

On mine it seems as fast(or slow depending on how you look at it) whether the internet connection is there or not. But I have a FiOS 43/35 connection plus my uptime has been 99.99%+ over the last 4+ years.


----------



## atmuscarella

Fofer said:


> Please tell me then, how making a television DVR that relies entirely on internet access, is beneficial from the COMPANY'S perspective?


Just to correct your miss statement the Premiere does not rely entirely on Internet Access to function as a DVR. I could disconnect my Premiere from the Internet and only connected long enough to down load guide data once a week and it would work just fine as a DVR and if I wanted to I could continue to use the HDUI.

Of course if TiVo just stayed focused on being a DVR they wouldn't really need the Internet at all. Even if Tivo had just stayed with simple text based menus I am fairly sure everyone would have found the Premiere to be a fast, efficient, and easy to use DVR.

But TiVo decided their customers wanted a "smart" DVR with a flashy graphical UI. And the way Tivo decided to give its customers what they wanted was to provide constant updated data via TiVo's servers over the Internet.

If your Internet access is down or is not working well with a Apple TV, Roku, Boxee Box, Google TV box, etc. you are just down. With TiVo they need to make it continue to work as a DVR while suspending all the "smart" features and for the most part that is exactly what my Premiere does.

Could TiVo have done a better job of it - sure. Do they need to fix or update some of their programs - sure again.


----------



## Fofer

aaronwt said:


> On mine it seems as fast(or slow depending on how you look at it) whether the internet connection is there or not. But I have a FiOS 43/35 connection plus my uptime has been 99.99%+ over the last 4+ years.


The point is, the speed of menu navigation on a device that has it's own content (ie: recorded TV shows) shouldn't depend on the internet connection. Customers shouldn't need FIOS 43/35 to have fast menus. If a customer has slow DSL, navigating the menus on their TV will be slow too? It's just bad design, IMO.


----------



## hefe

twhiting9275 said:


> Not from the company's perspective. Yes, from the customer's perspective, it's annoying, and yes it's probably one of the worst decisions, BUT companies aren't designed for the "customer's perspective", never have been. You don't become a mega-conglomerate by simply building your device strictly for the "customer perspective", you lose business very quickly that way


First, who is this mega-conglomerate you are referring to? It certainly ain't TiVo.

Secondly, not being responsive to what the customer wants is an even quicker way to lose business. Unless you actually provide something better that makes them overlook what's missing, you're going to miss the boat.



twhiting9275 said:


> And some people seem to think that it's so easy to program an application that would affect millions of devices across 3 generations. Get a little bit of a clue regarding programming before you make such statements. It is NOT that simple to do this. If it was, hey, it would have been done already.
> 
> It took Tivo 9 months to get Hulu from announcement to working (non-beta), it will take them time to get this implemented as well. PATIENCE is key here. You can throw childish temper tantrums, demanding it be done now, now, now, all you want, nobody cares. The world does not revolve 'instantly'.


How about just 1 generation? Why are so many other companies able to create entirely new product lines in the time it takes for TiVo to do anything.

I'm a longtime loyal TiVo fan and user. Been with them since 2000. But for the first time I'm evaluating other options, and it's completely because they are...so...slow...to...do...anything.

It's not my job to wait for them. It's their job to produce something that people will choose to purchase. They haven't been doing their job lately, and that's at their peril.


----------



## atmuscarella

aaronwt said:


> The discovery bar is always changing on my boxes depending on what show I'm looking at. And of course when search for something it also changes and shows some content related to what I searched for. I don't see how caching would do much good since it always seems to be loading new data on my boxes.


I guess I am not really in the menus enough to know how often my discovery bar is changed. I still think it wouldn't be that much to cache the top tier stuff to speed the entry menus up some. I understand that once you are actually asking for info it would need to load it live.

The only place in the HDUI where I find the menus to be a problem is moving around in my list of recorded shows. There really seems to be a problem there. I have no idea why but expect it is because of the graphical data it loads on the right side of the screen. Again not sure if the problem is loading the data from the Internet or just loading the data.


----------



## Fofer

atmuscarella said:


> But TiVo decided their customers wanted a "smart" DVR with a flashy graphical UI. And the way Tivo decided to give its customers what they wanted was to provide constant updated data via TiVo's servers over the Internet.


Right, they did it all wrong. I don't need constant updated data for the menus. Download the guide every so often, that's all. My idea about a "smart" DVR is very different from theirs. Their "flashy graphical UI" is half-baked, not even complete. The Internet smarts I want is access to all the content out there in a pleasing, consistent interface. I want Amazon Instant Prime. I don't need the Internet serving distracting banners on the main menu&#8230; especially at the cost of slowing navigation down.



atmuscarella said:


> If your Internet access is down or is not working well with a Apple TV, Roku, Boxee Box, Google TV box, etc. you are just down.


I can still AirPlay recorded shows to my AppleTV when the Internet is down. And TiVo should be able to work just as well with recorded shows. But time and time again I read that internet hiccups stand in the way or normal operation in the HDUI. I hear about menus being inaccessible, commands not working&#8230;

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1722

So I stick with the SDUI. It ain't pretty, but it's fast. At least the menus are consistent, and they work even when the internet is out. It just sucks that we have to make all of these compromises just to work around TiVo's bad decisions and lack of priority to get it all fixed and finished already.


----------



## smbaker

twhiting9275 said:


> It's NOT as simple as making things compatible with just ONE device. The system must universally be changed in this case


I still haven't heard the reason why a new Amazon Streaming app can't be designed and rolled out in addition to the existing app (not that I think having two Amazon apps is necessary, but to put a nail in the coffin of the straw man argument that the existing app is too onerous to update).



twhiting9275 said:


> Of course they are. Their entire SYSTEM relies on internet access now. No internet = zero access. This isn't a mistake, it's by design.


Requiring an "entire system" to have a persistent Internet connection because a small subset of optional features requires Internet access is an extraordinarily poor system design. Tivo's functionality is primarily divided into three parts:

1) Recording cable/OTA content
2) Playing back cable/OTA content
3) Displaying menus to navigate the recorded content and/or schedule new content to record

None of that requires a persistent internet connection. At best, one connection per day is required to download guide data. There may be additional parts like the advertisement bar (oops "discovery bar") but those features are completely optional to the basic design and should degrade gracefully if unreliable.



twhiting9275 said:


> And some people seem to think that it's so easy to program an application that would affect millions of devices across 3 generations. Get a little bit of a clue regarding programming before you make such statements.


I'm a computer programmer by trade with a PhD in computer science. I specialize in design and deployment of large distributed systems. I also routinely maintain software that spans multiple generations of Linux and Windows. I'm about as qualified a non-Tivo employee to render an opinion as you're going to find in the forums. While I have no direct evidence as I don't work for Tivo, you only need look at work of other providers (Sony, Roku, etc) to see that Amazon Streaming clients can be written and deployed.

Furthermore, if the Tivo platform was open, someone in the community would have probably already done the streaming app by now... for free... and it would probably have more features and be more reliable than whatever solution Tivo may eventually come up with.

As I've said, the most logical reason why we don't see an Amazon Streaming app is because it's wholly unimportant to the company (at best) or actually desired to fail (at worst) by Tivo's partners.


----------



## Fofer




----------



## Fofer

Meanwhile, Amazon Prime Instant's catalog just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Today's announcement:










Alas, TiVo is still out in the cold, and is likely to never have access to these. I'm hugging my Roku again today. I suspect I'll be buying a bunch of the new Roku models as holiday gifts too, for all of my friends who appreciate cutting-edge tech in their living rooms.


----------



## dswallow

twhiting9275 said:


> NOT all devices support these.
> Netflix - S3 and up
> Hulu - Premiere and up
> 
> It's NOT as simple as making things compatible with just ONE device. The system must universally be changed in this case
> 
> Of course they are. Their entire SYSTEM relies on internet access now. No internet = zero access. This isn't a mistake, it's by design.
> 
> Not from the company's perspective. Yes, from the customer's perspective, it's annoying, and yes it's probably one of the worst decisions, BUT companies aren't designed for the "customer's perspective", never have been. You don't become a mega-conglomerate by simply building your device strictly for the "customer perspective", you lose business very quickly that way
> 
> Adding a menu option is NOT the same thing as adding and removing features and conditional access.It's nowhere NEAR the same thing.
> 
> And some people seem to think that it's so easy to program an application that would affect millions of devices across 3 generations. Get a little bit of a clue regarding programming before you make such statements. It is NOT that simple to do this. If it was, hey, it would have been done already.
> 
> It took Tivo 9 months to get Hulu from announcement to working (non-beta), it will take them time to get this implemented as well. PATIENCE is key here. You can throw childish temper tantrums, demanding it be done now, now, now, all you want, nobody cares. The world does not revolve 'instantly'.


I think you're the one who needs a clue about programming.

When TiVo introduced Amazon Unbox, I created a simple HME-based application that scraped Amazon's web pages and presented a UI via the TiVo, in HD, and allowing full capabilities to order Unbox videos, manage your previously purchased videos, and even view previews/trailers (though this technically "downloaded" them then you went to the Now Playing list to choose to watch them). From start to finish, as my very first HME app, it took one week, and was, by far, the only app (well, one of two as another developer had then picked up on what I'd done and incorporated it into a different app) then or even till now that ever managed to make use of screen real estate fully.

That was over FOUR years ago. And still, today, what TiVo officially provides doesn't do all of that, and doesn't even get close to providing the same level of information on-screen. As I recall, people have mentioned you can't even review and choose from your media library, or even know you've already purchased something.

I had no support from Amazon; the developer APIs were unusable to do what I needed, and Amazon couldn't provide any info about if or when they could, so I resorted to scraping their web site as if you were browsing it yourself. it was still faster than the current app behavior, which supposedly has access to all the data via proper APIs instead.

TiVo has no excuse here. They're demonstrably completely incapable of doing anything in any sort of timely manner, no matter how many developers or interns or volunteers or managers they may throw around.

For at least the last 5 years, they've innovated nothing. They're just leveraging the aging software that drivers the basic DVR services of the device. And that still is better than most every other DVR on the market today. But for everything else about a "one box" internet-connected media device, they've fallen so flat on their faces they're 2-D beings in a 3-D world and don't even have the perspective to recognize it anymore.


----------



## atmuscarella

Fofer said:


> So I stick with the SDUI. It ain't pretty, but it's fast. At least the menus are consistent, and they work even when the internet is out. It just sucks that we have to make all of these compromises just to work around TiVo's bad decisions and lack of priority to get it all fixed and finished already.


I actually like the SDUI better and as 2 out of 3 of my TiVos only have it I would stick with it on the Premiere except I wanted to be able to comment on the HDUI on these broads so I have been running the HDUI since the last software update.

I see some problems with the HDUI but no way as many as what other people have posted. But like I said above I don't spend allot of time in the UI and don't have/use Netflix. I do use Pandora and it works great, tried Hulu+ for the free month and had no problems but didn't find it worth $8/mo for me. I also subscribe to several (dozen+) pod casts that auto down load just fine.


----------



## shwru980r

I think Tivo isn't working on OTT programming because it won't generate additional sales and it doesn't cause a significant loss of customers. Most people just buy an additional OTT device if they aren't saitisfied with TIVO. Separate OTT devices are so inexpensive at this point that it's not worth the time to complain.


----------



## aadam101

dswallow said:


> I think you're the one who needs a clue about programming.
> 
> When TiVo introduced Amazon Unbox, I created a simple HME-based application


Is this still available? I didn't use Amazon much back then but I use it all the time now.


----------



## djwilso

Fofer said:


> There hasn't been a single update to ANY of the Internet apps they bring in, has there? YouTube is still broken, Netflix still sucks, *Pandora's the same*


I don't agree on Pandora. This app on TiVo seems pretty good to me. It is at least as good as the channel on Roku and the app on my Panasonic Blu-Ray player.


----------



## smbaker

shwru980r said:


> I think Tivo isn't working on OTT programming because it won't generate additional sales and it doesn't cause a significant loss of customers. Most people just buy an additional OTT device if they aren't saitisfied with TIVO. Separate OTT devices are so inexpensive at this point that it's not worth the time to complain.


Then there's a significant discrepancy between what they produce and what they market, because they still think they're marketing "the one box".

In this case, they deserve to be called on the deception.


----------



## shwru980r

smbaker said:


> Then there's a significant discrepancy between what they produce and what they market, because they still think they're marketing "the one box".
> 
> In this case, they deserve to be called on the deception.


True, but there isn't anything else that comes close to Tivo's "One box".


----------



## smbaker

shwru980r said:


> True, but there isn't anything else that comes close to Tivo's "One box".


If the goal is to offer Internet connected services, then almost every other device that attempts it surpasses Tivo. Tivo's effort is so bad, it's laughable.

I suppose you're technically correct as long as you only consider devices that include DVR functionality, since Tivo pretty much wins by default.


----------



## MichaelK

aaronwt said:


> The discovery bar is always changing on my boxes depending on what show I'm looking at. And of course when search for something it also changes and shows some content related to what I searched for. I don't see how caching would do much good since it always seems to be loading new data on my boxes.
> ....


I'll make a GUESS.

since the ~100 or ~200 shows on a typical tivo box are the same most of the time- the tivo in the background could decide what thumbnails it would show you in the bar if you selected anyone of the 200. How many thumbnails are on each screen (dont have a premiere so not sure)- I assume it's 10. So 200x10= 2,000 pictures. Now lets figure there will be some overlap since presumably a lot of what one watches would be similar so what shows up in the bar for american idol probably overlaps with what shows up in the bar for x factor- lets call it 1500 pictures.

What size are they- a quarter of a 1920x1080 screen? or 960x540. Half a megapixel? this site http://web.forret.com/tools/megapixel.asp?width=960&height=540 says that's about 244k per picture
google http://www.google.com/search?gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=244KB+x+1500 tells me that's 357 megabytes or less then a 512 megabyte memory stick/chip

So seems they could cache all the pictures one would see in much of typical day to day use (unless they searched) in ram (if they included a reasonable amount on the board) or on the drive. IF one searched they could pick from those 1500 pictures first for instant population and then go out to the web to tweak the bar.

Heck- I'm not even convinced that they even show that many items in the bar. They probably could track trends and see what most people search for (I assume premiere search is like tivo beta search on my S3 and actually alredy does this on results- anticipates based on some algorithm) . They could probably spend a gig of cache and be ready for the vast majority of searches. And as you type they could update the bar.

Sorry to drag way off topic- but i guess the bottom line is- I'm a coding DOPE and yet my imagination in 5 minutes can easily come up with ways that TiVo could do things better.

I'm laughing about the comments from the guy who thinks 8 or even 10 months isn't that long. Clearly that person has not see the work that exists in the wild from one person or a small group- things like galleon or pytivo in the tivo domain, or any tens of thousands of apps available in the android or apple markets that are designed and coded by 1 guy or a small team and do better than the big boys and are crazy fast to come to market.


----------



## Fofer

I think that guy must be the intern at TiVo.


----------



## dswallow

aadam101 said:


> Is this still available? I didn't use Amazon much back then but I use it all the time now.


It's still out there, but I haven't updated it in years and I doubt it would still work without reviewing the current state of Amazon's web pages that it scrapes and making modifications to how it pulls out stuff and interacts with their servers.


----------



## MichaelK

wasn't sure which one of the amazon streaming threads to resurrect... so this looked as good as any.

looks like amazon prime streaming got that much better today with more content- now viacom is in the mix:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Amazon-Announces-Increased-bw-1142990804.html

still no news from tivo?


----------



## aaronwt

That takes them to almost one third of the streaming content that Netflix has(Netflix has around 48K titles). Which is still a good deal with the streaming titles being in addition to Amazon Prime shipping.


----------



## RangerOne

MichaelK said:


> wasn't sure which one of the amazon streaming threads to resurrect... so this looked as good as any.
> 
> looks like amazon prime streaming got that much better today with more content- now viacom is in the mix:
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Amazon-Announces-Increased-bw-1142990804.html
> 
> still no news from tivo?


From what I understand, Amazon creates the clients for the different platforms out there.


----------



## morac

aaronwt said:


> That takes them to almost one third of the streaming content that Netflix has(Netflix has around 48K titles). Which is still a good deal with the streaming titles being in addition to Amazon Prime shipping.


My biggest problem with Amazon Prime as opposed to Netflix or Hulu is that Amazon Prime has no queue. Nor does it remember what you watched last. That makes watching TV series more difficult than they should be.

For example, say you want to watch Star Trek: TNG for whatever reason. Here's the steps on Netflix (assuming you haven't added the show to your queue):

1. Search for ST:TNG and select it.
2. Pick the season.
3. Play the episode. 
4. Once you've done the previous three steps they don't need to be done again since you can add the show to your queue and also Netflix/Hulu remembers what episode you've watched last.

Here's the steps for Amazon Prime:
1. Search for ST:TNG
2. Scroll through all the different Star Trek series which are broken down by season, but are in no particular order (so it will be something like Star Trek season 1, Star Trek Voyager Season 5, Star Trek Deep Space Nine Season 3, ...). These aren't in a list, but as "posters".
3. Once you find the series and season, select it, then pick and play the episode.
4. You need to go through the above 3 steps every time you want to watch an episode since Amazon Prime has no queue, nor does it remember what you watched.

Basically Amazon Prime is a lot more of hassle to use than Netflix or Hulu.


----------



## mikeyts

It surprises me that they haven't come up with any kind of queue mechanism. The lack of one has definitely been pointed out to them as a weakness of their service when compared to Netflix. There've been suggestions that they'll offer Prime Instant Video ala carte, separate from Prime membership. That almost certainly won't work without a queue mechanism.

Adding a queue mechanism will require updates to the firmware of a ton of devices.


----------



## Charles R

aaronwt said:


> That takes them to almost one third of the streaming content that Netflix has(Netflix has around 48K titles).


I don't think comparing total numbers are all that relevant. More so the quality of content. I see Netflix adding _Mad Men_, _Breaking Bad_, etc and I haven't seen such on Amazon. I know I'm tired of them redirecting my Amazon page to the latest announcement and looking over the added content (what their are bragging about) and not finding anything I want to watch or haven't caught decades ago. Perhaps the content they are adding and not bragging about is better...


----------



## morac

Also I don't know how much of the 48k is part of Starz Play, but Netflix is losing that at the end of the month.


----------



## mikeyts

morac said:


> Also I don't know how much of the 48k is part of Starz Play, but Netflix is losing that at the end of the month.


920 titles.


----------



## MichaelK

RangerOne said:


> From what I understand, Amazon creates the clients for the different platforms out there.


I'm not really one to make a fuss. Was mostly making an observation. That said you wade in to a 450+ post thread (hec argument is probably more appropriate) and go with that comment? ;-) pretty bold. :-D

On the comments about quality of shows and lack of queue- I wouldn't buy prime for the streaming for sure. Netflix was much better when we had it. But I have prime and it would be nice to be able to easily access streaming on my TiVo. If tivo gets around to it- Makes the tivo more valuable just like free prime streaming makes the kindle fire more valuable.


----------



## msrolla

As far as a queue, I have a wishlist for the movies I eventually want to watch. Doesn't help when I'm not watching on a computer, but at least I can keep track of them.


----------



## tomm1079

figured this might be interesting to some people:

@TiVo
Thanks! Can't comment on timing for Amazon Prime. Keep you posted RT @sidekickbobo: @TiVo kudos on the new interface.Now get us amazon prime


----------



## atmuscarella

MichaelK said:


> I'm not really one to make a fuss. Was mostly making an observation. That said you wade in to a 450+ post thread (hec argument is probably more appropriate) and go with that comment? ;-) pretty bold. :-D
> 
> On the comments about quality of shows and lack of queue- I wouldn't buy prime for the streaming for sure. Netflix was much better when we had it. But I have prime and it would be nice to be able to easily access streaming on my TiVo. If tivo gets around to it- Makes the tivo more valuable just like free prime streaming makes the kindle fire more valuable.


I have not followed this in detail. Are you saying we definitively know the reason that Amazon Prime streaming isn't available on TiVo is solely a TiVo decision, completely within TiVo's control to change, and that Amazon isn't involved in the hold up in anyway?


----------



## Fofer

Amazon wants it there, I am sure. TiVo doesn't have the coding time or ability to add it to their existing platform, that's all. It is not a priority for them.


----------



## MichaelK

atmuscarella said:


> I have not followed this in detail. Are you saying we definitively know the reason that Amazon Prime streaming isn't available on TiVo is solely a TiVo decision, completely within TiVo's control to change, and that Amazon isn't involved in the hold up in anyway?


Nope not at all. My point was we dont definitely know the reason is amazon. so wading into a 400+ page thread to toss that out (after its been argued both ways maybe 50 times) was... well... bold

Luckily didn't start the argument for the 51st time.

(And to catch you up seems more believe it to be tivo's fault than amazon's. I'm not sure myself but TiVo had no problem publically blaming rhapsody so if it was amazons fault....)


----------



## shwru980r

Tivo was one of the first to have netflix streaming and they still lost millions of subscriptions. Adding amazon prime streaming isn't going to boost their retail subscriptions significantly. Why should they do it?


----------



## MichaelK

They have to provide a certain minimum amount of ongoing updates so people trust them among other indirect reasons. Same reasons why they claim to be updating the remaining premeire screens to have hd versions. (That too gains them little by itself). Question is - assuming it's TiVo's choice- when, if ever, do they think it's a big enough deal to fix Amazon?


----------



## atmuscarella

MichaelK said:


> Nope not at all. My point was we dont definitely know the reason is amazon. so wading into a 400+ page thread to toss that out (after its been argued both ways maybe 50 times) was... well... bold
> 
> Luckily didn't start the argument for the 51st time.
> 
> (And to catch you up seems more believe it to be tivo's fault than amazon's. I'm not sure myself but TiVo had no problem publically blaming rhapsody so if it was amazons fault....)


Ok that makes sense - we really don't know what the issue is so each person makes stuff up that makes sense to them.

So my made up summation is that neither TiVo or Amazon really want Amazon Prime streaming on TiVo's. Costs both companies money to provide it and it likely will not increase revenue for either.


----------



## Fofer

Why would Amazon want Prime Streaming on so many devices, and brag that it's on so many devices, but choose to single out TiVo only?










Makes very little sense to surmise that TiVo devices, in the eyes of Amazon, are any different from the rest of them. I'm sure if TiVo made it priority to update their software to be able to present Amazon's Prime Streaming, Amazon would be very happy to be able to remove that asterisk with the fine print that singles them out.


----------



## dlfl

atmuscarella said:


> Ok that makes sense - we really don't know what the issue is so each person makes stuff up that makes sense to them.
> .......


Ah a kernel of basic truth about human nature. Without speculation, TCF could cut their server capacity by 50%. And the "news" media would almost be out of business! Apparently we love it.....


----------



## mikeyts

RangerOne is a tech blogger (techofthehub.com), so his information may come from credible sources.


----------



## morac

RangerOne said:


> From what I understand, Amazon creates the clients for the different platforms out there.


I know Amazon creates the client for Roku since when I had a problem with the Amazon app not working correctly I was told by Roku to contact Amazon.

For Amazon on TiVo, though my guess is that the current app was created by TiVo or maybe a TiVo/Amazon partnership. Back when the Amazon app was created in 2007, there was no streaming apps out there on any platform. The Amazon app isn't even a streaming app, it simply downloads. Talking to Amazon customer service in the past the way Amazon currently works is that it directly injects it's downloads in the TiVo's web video download queue via some kind of request to TiVo's servers so there would need to be work done on both sides.

A pure streaming app, could be built completely by Amazon using TiVo's new Platform SDK and then hosted on TiVo's servers with the rest of the apps (Netflix, Hulu, etc). So I'm pretty sure the hold up here is Amazon.


----------



## Fofer

morac said:


> I know Amazon creates the client for Roku since when I had a problem with the Amazon app not working correctly I was told by Roku to contact Amazon.


And? How was that experience? What was the problem, and did Amazon fix it?


----------



## morac

Fofer said:


> And? How was that experience? What was the problem, and did Amazon fix it?


The problem was that nothing would show up under the "TV" show area for Amazon in Roku despite having lots of purchased TV shows. Talking to the Amazon guy on the phone we decided that maybe there was a toxic entry in the list so I started "deleting" shows (Amazon moves deleted shows into a Trash folder so they can be restored). I finally tracked down the SD version of a program that was causing the problem. Since I also had the HD version (you get both HD and SD when purchasing), I simply restored all the other programs and left the SD version in the trash. This was back when both HD and SD listings were shown for the same program.

Amazon opened a trouble ticket for this. A few months later I noticed that if I had both the HD and SD version of the same episode, only the HD version would show up on the Roku. If I only had an SD version that would show up. So I don't know if they fixed it really, but the problem no longer happens because of that.

From what I was told, the reason Amazon gives you the SD version when you buy the HD version of a show is in case your Internet connection is too slow to stream the HD version. My guess is that it will simply revert automatically to the SD version if you play an HD program and your connection isn't fast enough.

Dealing with Amazon is usually a very pleasant experience for me. Every time I've contact them about anything has been a pleasant experience. From having them re-push rentals/purchases on a TiVo (they do this by adding a license) to having received a defective UPS (They shipped me a new one and told me to properly dispose of the defective one as they can't receive anything back containing lead).


----------



## aadam101

morac said:


> Dealing with Amazon is usually a very pleasant experience for me. Every time I've contact them about anything has been a pleasant experience. From having them re-push rentals/purchases on a TiVo (they do this by adding a license) to having received a defective UPS (They shipped me a new one and told me to properly dispose of the defective one as they can't receive anything back containing lead).


I find most of my experiences with Amazon to be horrible. They are fine when things go right but when things go wrong they are a PITA. The one exception is the Instant Video team. They are always pleasant to deal with and issue refunds right away. If I have an issue, I usually send them an email and they have issued a refund before my movie is over.


----------



## mikeyts

Amazon's "return for full refund with free postage for any complaint" period is pretty long and the process is completely automated. I've never had any problem dealing with them, though I recall that the one time that I wanted to speak to them on the phone it was a PITA to locate a customer service phone number (I couldn't find it on their site at all and had to google it).


----------



## morac

mikeyts said:


> Amazon's "return for full refund with free postage for any complaint" period is pretty long and the process is completely automated. I've never had any problem dealing with them, though I recall that the one time that I wanted to speak to them on the phone it was a PITA to locate a customer service phone number (I couldn't find it on their site at all and had to google it).


I've never had a problem "calling them". I simply use the contact us link on their web site, then click call me and put my phone number in.


----------



## aadam101

mikeyts said:


> Amazon's "return for full refund with free postage for any complaint" period is pretty long and the process is completely automated. I've never had any problem dealing with them, though I recall that the one time that I wanted to speak to them on the phone it was a PITA to locate a customer service phone number (I couldn't find it on their site at all and had to google it).


Actually, I have noticed that the "return for full refund with free postage for any complaint" has been changed. Depending on the reason you are returning, they do charge for some returns.


----------



## MichaelK

aadam101 said:


> Actually, I have noticed that the "return for full refund with free postage for any complaint" has been changed. Depending on the reason you are returning, they do charge for some returns.


true but pretty much anything wrong could be a result of them packaging things poorly which is one of the reasons you get free return shipping.

anyway- back to streaming- I'm basically clueless but it seems tivo now uses adobe air to do the UI on the tivo- is there an amazon app that uses adobe air on any other device? I think I've read that most (all?) the other apps are HTML5 but

Another thought- NOT to start a brawl- so not being sarcastic- asking a serious question. Assuming the people with the content make the apps- seems netflix took the time to make a new app (that is on the bestbuy tv and supposedly coming to premieres eventually). Why would netflix do that since updating the app isn't really likely going to bring them piles and piles of new subs?


----------



## Fofer

aadam101 said:


> I find most of my experiences with Amazon to be horrible. They are fine when things go right but when things go wrong they are a PITA.


I've had nothing but great experiences with Amazon. They ALWAYS have made things right.


----------



## Fofer

aadam101 said:


> Actually, I have noticed that the "return for full refund with free postage for any complaint" has been changed. Depending on the reason you are returning, they do charge for some returns.


Only if it's your fault, or you changed your mind, or decided to buy it elsewhere. If the product arrived late or damaged or whatever (ie: their fault) they won't charge for the return. And it's been this way for a few years now. Nothing's changed.


----------



## ELPHILLIPS

I have been an Amazon customer for the past three years and a Prime member for that period. In several hundred purchases I've only had to make two returns because they were the wrong items. Each year I save far more then the cost of Prime in shipping fees.

I have used Amazon for downloaded movies to my TiVo 3 or 4 times. Each time I experienced some breakup of the video.


----------



## Ennui

ELPHILLIPS said:


> I have been an Amazon customer for the past three years and a Prime member for that period. In several hundred purchases I've only had to make two returns because they were the wrong items. Each year I save far more then the cost of Prime in shipping fees.
> 
> I have used Amazon for downloaded movies to my TiVo 3 or 4 times. Each time I experienced some breakup of the video.


I also have been a long-time Amazon customer and am also a Prime member.

But I do not use my TiVo for downloading movies from Amazon. We use our Sony DMX-NV1 and have never had a breakup that I can remember.

FWIW.


----------



## Fofer

Ennui said:


> But I do not use my TiVo for downloading movies from Amazon. We use our Sony DMX-NV1 and have never had a breakup that I can remember.
> 
> FWIW.


That device doesn't download movies locally. It streams, only.


----------



## Ennui

Fofer said:


> That device doesn't download movies locally. It streams, only.


Yes, you are correct. That makes it even more surprising to me that we almost never have break-ups even using a wireless link.


----------



## Ttt0

Yeah, this will be of little use to me unless it is integrated with Tivo.


----------



## igotsmeakabob!!

Has there ever been any movement on this? I have Prime and a Premiere and noticed on Amazon that I could Stream for free, mentioned Tivo... but when I went to my Tivo I didn't see 'free' anywhere... just $4 rentals etc.


----------



## Fofer

No movement. TiVo remains the redheaded stepchild without access to Amazon's Instant Prime library.


----------



## aaronwt

Fofer said:


> No movement. TiVo remains the redheaded stepchild without access to Amazon's Instant Prime library.


Isn't it also the only DVR with access to Amazon content?


----------



## morac

aaronwt said:


> Isn't it also the only DVR with access to Amazon content?


That doesn't mean much since it's basically the only consumer DVR left.


----------



## aaronwt

Aren't there two or three consumer DVRs launching this year? Although I'm Not sure if any have announced Amazon Prime streaming.


----------



## mikeyts

aaronwt said:


> Aren't there two or three consumer DVRs launching this year?


Huh? None that I've heard of. I should think that the failure of the Moxi retail line would have proven the folly of that.


----------



## aaronwt

mikeyts said:


> Huh? None that I've heard of. I should think that the failure of the Moxi retail line would have proven the folly of that.


Doesn't Ceton have one launching? The Ceton Q? And I know one was just announced a few days ago. The Whiteman Technology Delta DVR. Which also has a BD player in it. I thought there may have been a third one, but maybe it was just two?


----------



## MichaelK

launch? perhaps.

who knows if they will last (if they do manage to launch).

But one of those i recall would run android apps somehow- assuming that it has a browser - then prime streams just fine in the chrome browser. Has worked on my googltv since the day i got it- also on my android tablet just fine.


----------



## mikeyts

aaronwt said:


> Doesn't Ceton have one launching? The Ceton Q? And I know one was just announced a few days ago. The Whiteman Technology Delta DVR. Which also has a BD player in it. I thought there may have been a third one, but maybe it was just two?


I did a search after making my last post and found the Whiteman Delta, but hadn't seen the Ceton Q. The Q seems to be based on MS' embedded Win7 and Windows Media Center which has a DVR function, and they're selling a satellite box called the Ceton Echo to go with it. Seems cool, but they're not giving a list of Internet VOD services it will support yet. If I were them I'd certainly go for Netflix, Hulu Plus, Amazon and VUDU at a minimum, but you never know.


----------



## owendelong

shorties said:


> Yeah, well we will see if the free streaming applies to the TiVo, my guess will be that it will at the very least require an update from TiVo, and that's being if Amazon's licenses allow it to be streamed to devices at all. (Especially considering the TiVo would need to download it not stream it). But obviously I would be ecstatic to be proven wrong, I am a huge Amazon Prime fan, so adding functionality can only be a good thing.


Amazon Prime works fine on virtually all devices EXCEPT TiVO.

Once again, TiVO disappoints lagging well behind everything else.

Works on PS-3, Works on iPad/iPhone, works on Mac, even works on Windows.

So, the issue is not Amazon licensing. The issue is, as usual, entirely TiVO development. My guess would be that TiVO gets a cut of purchases and Amazon doesn't want to pay for $0 purchases through TiVO, so, TiVO isn't motivated to serve their customers because they can't make money doing so.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

owendelong said:


> Amazon Prime works fine on virtually all devices EXCEPT TiVO.
> 
> Once again, TiVO disappoints lagging well behind everything else.
> 
> Works on PS-3, Works on iPad/iPhone, works on Mac, even works on Windows.
> 
> So, the issue is not Amazon licensing. The issue is, as usual, entirely TiVO development. My guess would be that TiVO gets a cut of purchases and Amazon doesn't want to pay for $0 purchases through TiVO, so, TiVO isn't motivated to serve their customers because they can't make money doing so.


Do you have any support for these claims? Of course your claim Amazon Prime works on virtually all devices except TiVo is blatantly false. As far as I know a huge majority of devices can't access the service, and those that can require considerable contributions including licensing from Amazon to get it working. For all I know the reason TiVo doesn't include the service is 100% Amazon. I don't have an XBox 360 but I do have a PS3 and was happy to see the service added but in the 5 years I have had a PS3, new features and services are added often, I haven't ever owned anything like that before.

I don't know if the TiVo Premiere is capable and I don't know if Amazon would allow the service on the TiVo Premiere if it was capable but if you have proof TiVo is at fault here, go ahead and provide it, I have seen the claim you make before and nobody else could prove the claim is true.


----------



## aaronwt

owendelong said:


> Amazon Prime works fine on virtually all devices EXCEPT TiVO.
> 
> Once again, TiVO disappoints lagging well behind everything else.
> 
> Works on PS-3, Works on iPad/iPhone, works on Mac, even works on Windows.
> 
> So, the issue is not Amazon licensing. The issue is, as usual, entirely TiVO development. My guess would be that TiVO gets a cut of purchases and Amazon doesn't want to pay for $0 purchases through TiVO, so, TiVO isn't motivated to serve their customers because they can't make money doing so.


The TiVo is still the only box(?) that can get 1080P24 content from Amazon. All the amazon streaming devices only have access to 720P and lower content for streaming. While the TiVo has access to the high quality 1080P24 content. So if they do ever add a streaming option. I hope we don't lose the download option and access to the higher quality Amazon content.

Currently the TiVo is the only box I use to watch my purchased Amazon content since that is typically in 1080P24.


----------



## loganasu

owendelong said:


> Amazon Prime works fine on virtually all devices EXCEPT TiVO.
> 
> Once again, TiVO disappoints lagging well behind everything else.
> 
> Works on PS-3, Works on iPad/iPhone, works on Mac, even works on Windows.
> 
> So, the issue is not Amazon licensing. The issue is, as usual, entirely TiVO development. My guess would be that TiVO gets a cut of purchases and Amazon doesn't want to pay for $0 purchases through TiVO, so, TiVO isn't motivated to serve their customers because they can't make money doing so.


I didn't realize it worked on the iPad and iPhone. Is there a special app for that? I would love to have it work on my ipad.


----------



## Johncv

loganasu said:


> I didn't realize it worked on the iPad and iPhone. Is there a special app for that? I would love to have it work on my ipad.


Yes, goto Amazon Prime Video.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&ref_=sa_menu_aiv_wtv0&docId=1000663511


----------



## Fofer

There is nothing on that page about iPads or iPhones. Amazon Prime Video (Instant or not) does NOT work on iPads or iPhones.


----------



## morac

Fofer said:


> There is nothing on that page about iPads or iPhones. Amazon Prime Video (Instant or not) does NOT work on iPads or iPhones.


Actually there is something on Amazon's help pages about iPads and iPhones, but it simply says they aren't supported.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?ie=UTF8&nodeId=3757


----------



## Fofer

Right, but that's not the page Johncv linked to


----------



## Beryl

Fofer said:


> There is nothing on that page about iPads or iPhones. Amazon Prime Video (Instant or not) does NOT work on iPads or iPhones.


And it is a pity. I don't want an Amazon Fire but would like to watch Amazon videos on my iPad.

I did watch a free video on my iPad once -- using Logmein Ignition.

I used Splashtop to watch some stuff on Hulu and Fearnet also but I couldn't get the 16:9 aspect with Splashtop so I didn't want to watch Amazon stuff using that app. I could be doing it wrong.


----------



## MichaelK

Since google provided the youtube update on the premieres and netflix provided their update my current thinking (which has changed like 12 times- lol) is that amazon needs to provide an update to get streaming to work. The lack of an app on the ipad kind of makes me think that's confirmed. Prime works perfectly fine on android devices and has for quite some time ever since flash came along. 

(although i get myself wondering again since it is funny that amazon uses flash on android and tivo has flash and yet nothing....)


----------



## mikeyts

MichaelK said:


> Prime works perfectly fine on android devices and has for quite some time ever since flash came along.


Do you mean the web player? I was just discussing with someone the other day that the only official mobile app they offer is the one on Kindle Fire, which is pre-installed and unavailable from their app store. (I learned that it is unofficially available elsewhere and works fine on other Android platforms).


----------



## MichaelK

mikeyts said:


> Do you mean the web player? I was just discussing with someone the other day that the only official mobile app they offer is the one on Kindle Fire, which is pre-installed and unavailable from their app store. (I learned that it is unofficially available elsewhere and works fine on other Android platforms).


yep through the web (I think since it looks like a browser)- but it plays fine full screen on googletv with the remote and all.

On tablets and phones you just browse to the webpage so that's certainly the browser.


----------



## Fofer

MichaelK said:


> Since google provided the youtube update on the premieres and netflix provided their update my current thinking (which has changed like 12 times- lol) is that amazon needs to provide an update to get streaming to work. The lack of an app on the ipad kind of makes me think that's confirmed. Prime works perfectly fine on android devices and has for quite some time ever since flash came along.
> 
> (although i get myself wondering again since it is funny that amazon uses flash on android and tivo has flash and yet nothing....)


You think Amazon *likes* having to include this asterisk?










My guess is that TiVo's software is so janky, working with their dwindling team is near impossible, and the installed user base is so small, and Amazon just decided it wasn't worth it.


----------



## aaronwt

Still, the only way to get the best quality Amazon content is on a TiVo. Not from the streaming only devices for Amazon that is limited to 720P.


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## heatherprotz

Video-on demand is the best way you can enjoy video when you actually need them.


----------



## dlfl

I just finished watching (and recording) an Amazon Prime Instant Video on my TiVo HD. I selected it from the Now Playing List (without visiting the Amazon web site) and it was available to start viewing within seconds. This is possible using two software components running on my networked PC:
1. PlayOn (Media Mall), see http://www.playon.tv/?vs=t12052
2. PyTivo with the PlayOn plugin recently developed by jkasyan, see:
http://pytivo.sourceforge.net/forum/pytivo-for-jython-windows-installer-t1610.html
PyTivo is free. PlayOn costs $4.99/mo., offers a free trial, and delivers a lot more than just Amazon Prime Videos. PlayOn videos can be either pulled or pushed with pyTivo. Probably the most significant limitation of this setup is that it streams videos, regardless of source, at a constant bit rate of about 4.2 Mbps, obviously not HD quality. However the picture is acceptable to me on my 40" LCDTV.

Although jkasyan provides an installer for pyTivo with the PlayOn plugin, the plugin can easily be added to an existing pyTivo installation, by just copying several files in from jkasyan's Google Code repository, and installing the (free) django package into your python installation.


----------



## aaronwt

So PlayON still doesn't send an HD picture, or the content you selected was only SD? There is plenty of content out there that is sent as HD with a using a low bitrate with MPEG4.


----------



## MichaelK

Fofer said:


> You think Amazon *likes* having to include this asterisk?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My guess is that TiVo's software is so janky, working with their dwindling team is near impossible, and the installed user base is so small, and Amazon just decided it wasn't worth it.


I think you answered the question - the user base is small enough that they dont think the extra asterisk is a big deal...

(again my thought of the day...- lol)


----------



## dlfl

aaronwt said:


> So PlayON still doesn't send an HD picture, or the content you selected was only SD? There is plenty of content out there that is sent as HD with a using a low bitrate with MPEG4.


I don't really know the answer to that question but here is the (fuzzy) picture I have:

PlayOn is designed to work with a number of different clients, e.g., xBox, GoogleTV, Wii, WDTV, Roku, etc. (see their website for more details).

Each client identifies itself to PlayOn and PlayOn transcodes (using ffmpeg) videos it streams from the internet to a stream format suitable for the particular client. The pyTivo PlayOn client identifies itself with a "user-agent" string for the Nintendo Wii, since PlayOn apparently hasn't defined (or can't respond to) a user-agent ID for a TiVo. I assume this user-agent specifies MPEG2 only since pyTiVo pulls (at least) must use that format. I don't know how jkasyan came up with that user-agent string (maybe by packet capture while PlayOn was communicating with his Wii ??). I've googled about user-agents and have come up with just about nothing. I'm curious if another user-agent ID might give higher resolution (bitrates) for MPEG2 or provide H.264 for pushes.

It costs nothing but a little time to try out this method, so I would suggest anyone really eager to have Amazon Instant Prime on their TiVo give it a shot. If the video quality doesn't satisfy, very little has been lost. Given the wealth of other content PlayOn provides, I think it's an attractive choice for potential or actual cord-cutters.


----------



## atmuscarella

MichaelK said:


> I think you answered the question - the user base is small enough that they dont think the extra asterisk is a big deal...
> 
> (again my thought of the day...- lol)


From Amazon's point of view the actually size of the user base that they really have to be concerned with is the number of TiVo users who don't have another way to stream Amazon Prime and would sign up for it, if it became available on their TiVos; which I am guessing is significantly less than the whole TiVo user base and may actually be something near zero.

I actually have 3 devices attached to my TV that can stream Amazon Prime. So having it available on my TiVos really doesn't effect if I am going to pay for Amazon Prime or not.

So I honestly see little or no reason for Amazon to be concerned with this. Hopefully TiVo will be more concerned and work to get Amazon Prime streaming available on the Premieres.


----------



## sbiller

http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/29/3050440/amazon-instant-video-xbox-360


----------



## ConstableClyde

I love having Amazon Prime. Saves me so much money.


----------



## aaronwt

sbiller said:


> http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/29/3050440/amazon-instant-video-xbox-360


Is it as good or better than the PS3 version? I don't use the PS3 version because of the audio issues it has(I don't know if they fixed them yet)So I have been using my Roku2 for Amazon streaming content.


----------



## mikeyts

aaronwt said:


> Is it as good or better than the PS3 version? I don't use the PS3 version because of the audio issues it has(I don't know if they fixed them yet)So I have been using my Roku2 for Amazon streaming content.


It's more or less par for for the course for these Metro-flavored Xbox video streamers. Full Kinect vocal and gestural control for browsing and during playback. It does have a serious bug in that video is not shown while fast-forwarding or rewinding--the timecode gradually changes but you can't see "where you're going". (It boggles the mind that the player got released with such a glaring bug ).

Amazon added a queue, called a "Watchlist" which works in the Xbox player now; the site says "coming soon" to PS3 and Roku.


----------



## stlbluesfan74

I can get Amazon Prime Videos through my PS3. However, I would really prefer not to have to turn on my PS and instead just watch via my Tivo.


----------



## morac

aaronwt said:


> Is it as good or better than the PS3 version? I don't use the PS3 version because of the audio issues it has(I don't know if they fixed them yet)So I have been using my Roku2 for Amazon streaming content.


There was an update to the PS3 version last week. I didn't test to see if it fixed the audio issues or not. I had reported them to Amazon, but there initial response was to simply change the audio settings on the PS3.


----------



## aaronwt

morac said:


> There was an update to the PS3 version last week. I didn't test to see if it fixed the audio issues or not. I had reported them to Amazon, but there initial response was to simply change the audio settings on the PS3.


I tried out the 360 Amazon streaming app last night. I see it has the same audio issues as the PS3, o
It was sending stereo audio in a 5.1 wrapper. It could have been something else though. Since it was doing that for every title I tried. Titles I know are in 5.1 on the Roku2 were being sent as stereo in a 5.1 wrapper.

The netflix app was fine with 5.1 content so it was specific to the Amazon app.


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## slowbiscuit

But the 360 and PS3 apps support Prime Instant Video, and Tivo does not. And Amazon just signed a deal with Paramount to add more stuff, they're slowly closing in on Netflix for streaming titles. 

Once again the 'one box' is being left behind by others in the marketplace.


----------



## seattlewendell

sbiller said:


> http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/29/3050440/amazon-instant-video-xbox-360



TiVo is becoming a parody of itself.


----------



## shwru980r

Tivo was an early adopter of Netflix streaming and they still proceeded to lose a million subscribers afterwards. Based on that, I can see why there isn't a sense of urgency to implement Amazon streaming.


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## nrnoble

Sigh.... I have not read all the comments here, and don't know all the reasons or speculation as to why TiVo does not have Amazon instant Streaming, but overall I say I love my TiVo as a DVR yet extremely disappointed with it when it comes to being an "Internet" entertainment device. As a result I have bought other Internet connected devices (ie Ruku, Google TV, xbox 360) to over come the missing functionality I wished TiVo had.

IMHO, TiVo could have been like Apple, and lead the industry in terms of TV\Internet innovation, but because they did not take that lead role, it has opened the door of other devices to fill the gap that TiVo devices currently do not offer.

For TiVo to survive, a TiVo DVR needs to move beyond the focus on recording TV, and be more like the competiting devices in terms of the functionality offered.

Overall I hope that TiVo can keep moving forward so they simply are not bought by some large cable operation for the DVR technology. If such a buy out were to happen, it probably would not be long before TiVo units would be discontinued, and the only thing remaining would be TiVo software in cable boxes from one cable company.


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## slowbiscuit

What other devices? There are none in the DVR space at this time. That's why Tivo continues to slow-roll everything, because no one is pushing them to make it better.

If you're talking about boxes that do net apps, there are tons of them but Tivo will never be that box. Tivo alone does both, and the DVR is great but the net apps are mostly bad. I think we all agree that it should be much better than it is, but Tivo is the cable company of net apps - provide the minimum and hope that people live with it (sure seems that way, at least).


----------



## morac

Personally I don't think I'd trust TiVo enough to use an Amazon streaming app even if they had one as there is a chance the box will reboot when using their other streaming apps. For a standalone device that's not good, but it's not terrible. For a DVR, that's a very bad thing since it can result in lost recordings.


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## slowbiscuit

Not to mention that the current outsourced Netflix and YouTube apps are terrible compared to, uh, those on any other boxes (such as Roku). If Amazon ever updated it, there's a high likelihood that it would suck on a Tivo.


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## Fofer

Yeah, it's gotten to the point that I don't use ANY app on the TiVo other than basic DVRing. There is not a single app on there that is preferable to how it's executed on my AppleTV and Roku. I was happy to see Spotify, but the UI is slow and doesn't even support keyboard input, making searching annoying.


----------



## aaronwt

morac said:


> Personally I don't think I'd trust TiVo enough to use an Amazon streaming app even if they had one as there is a chance the box will reboot when using their other streaming apps. For a standalone device that's not good, but it's not terrible. For a DVR, that's a very bad thing since it can result in lost recordings.


Tivo would be the best device for Amazon streaming. Then we could get the native 720P resolution output from amazon streaming. Other devices don't have native reoslution output, so devices like the PS3, Roku2 etc, use it's inferior scaling to output the content at 1080P60. I would rather have the option of my own external scaler to process the video. The 1080P24 output from Netflix is also one of the reasons I like Netflix on the Premiere.


----------



## Fofer

aaronwt said:


> Tivo would be the best device for Amazon streaming. Then we could get the native 720P resolution output from amazon streaming. Other devices don't have native reoslution output, so devices like the PS3, Roku2 etc, use it's inferior scaling to output the content at 1080P60. I would rather have the option of my own external scaler to process the video. The 1080P24 output from Netflix is also one of the reasons I like Netflix on the Premiere.


But the UI to get there is horribly clunky, slow and unreliable.


----------



## morac

aaronwt said:


> Tivo would be the best device for Amazon streaming. Then we could get the native 720P resolution output from amazon streaming. Other devices don't have native reoslution output, so devices like the PS3, Roku2 etc, use it's inferior scaling to output the content at 1080P60. I would rather have the option of my own external scaler to process the video. The 1080P24 output from Netflix is also one of the reasons I like Netflix on the Premiere.


You can set the Roku to output at 720p, but considering the compression rates that Amazon, et al use it probably makes no difference.


----------



## MikeAndrews

Amazon just added a whole bunch of relatively new movies for the free (to) Prime Instant Video.

I should stop buying those 1 off Blu-Rays.


----------



## Fofer




----------



## nrnoble

slowbiscuit said:


> What other devices? There are none in the DVR space at this time. That's why Tivo continues to slow-roll everything, because no one is pushing them to make it better.
> 
> If you're talking about boxes that do net apps, there are tons of them but Tivo will never be that box. Tivo alone does both, and the DVR is great but the net apps are mostly bad. I think we all agree that it should be much better than it is, but Tivo is the cable company of net apps - provide the minimum and hope that people live with it (sure seems that way, at least).


As I listed in my post, Ruku, xbox, Apple TV, Google TV, and several other devices that connect to a TV. Yes, they do not record TV programming, but my point is that TV has expanded beyond just cable programming, but Tivo is slow to expand beyond what is offered on cable. Ideally Tivo would lead the industry in what can be done with a device connected to a TV, and everyone would be waiting with anticipation to see what Tivo is going to do next, much like how the world watches Apple.

There are several apps I have on my iPad that would like to have on Tivo, HBOGO and Amazon Prime are a couple of examples, and probably mostly puzzled that Amazon Prime is not offered on Tivo given that Amazon VOD has been included for several years. Has Tivo made any official statement about their plans for Amazon Prime, or are they just remaining silent?


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## atmuscarella

The discussion about "Smart TV" and what TiVo should do is an interesting one. 

From a personnel point of view I would love TiVo to actually be a great DVR and Smart TV device. However from a TiVo point of view you can only invest money if you have a reasonable expectation of a return on your investment. 

At this point in time does anyone really believe TiVo is going to sell more DVRs based on having a great "Smart TV" suite? Roku has basically set the "value" of an excellent "Smart TV" suite and it is in the $60-80 range. So if someone is going to buy a TiVo and pay what it costs you have to want a DVR as no one is going to pay $500+ if what they primarily want is a "Smart TV" device.

In my opinion "Smart TV" could have been big for TiVo if they had done it right 3 years ago. Just think how much different it could have been if TiVo had release the Premiere with a finished HD UI and an excellent "Smart TV" suite and at or near the same time release stand alone Smart TV streaming devices and Smart TV blu-ray players that would also be used like we hope to use the up coming mini?

They just couldn't get it done and now I am not sure it matters anymore, just too many other good/easy ways to have "Smart TV".


----------



## morac

The reason TiVo included "smart TV" functionality was because there was no way (at the time), that TiVo could compete in the DVR market. Cable companies give out free (*) DVRs and even though they weren't as good as TiVo's DVRs, free and good enough almost always trumps expensive and great.

Now cable companies are starting to add "smart TV" functionality in their boxes. For example, Comcast's X1, does Pandora, Facebook, Twitter and Skype. TiVo can't just rest on their laurels, because they are starting to be surpassed by free (*) boxes (which aren't released only 20% completed).

Yes, TiVo has partnerships and it is getting royalties because of its lawsuits, but TiVo's patents expire in a few years after which other companies won't be forced to deal with TiVo anymore. Amazon might feel TiVo is irrelevant at this point and not want to "waste" the resources developing an Amazon prime app for it considering they already have an "app" that allows purchases (i.e. revenue).

(*) - Cable companies rent DVRs for a lot more than TiVo's monthly fee so in reality it isn't free, but there's no upfront cost.


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## shwru980r

The Tivo HD was one of the first set top boxes with Netflix streaming and Tivo still proceeded to lose 2 million subscriptions. If you can find enough shows to watch online at a reasonable price, then why even use a DVR?


----------



## MichaelK

everyone seems to focus on how many more DVR's tivo will sell with 'smart tv apps'. But the opposite is also relevant- how many people wont bother adding a Tivo DVR if it doesn't have 'smart tv apps'. While I think that latter group is larger than the former I'm sure it's still probably small at this point but as smart apps get to be more prevalent then people aren't going to want to add a tivo and forgo smart apps on input 1. (and there's less and less need for a DVR as you can get more and more of the content from the smart apps anyway....)

I's have to think of the repercussions but as I type this I can't help but wonder if TiVo shouldn't work with Roku, Nintendo, xbox, Samsung/LG/Sony/any smart tv maker to build tivo client apps into their devices and start selling tivo as an accessory to those who want to make a real effort to be the king on input 1. Tivo seems to be ceding the space anyway and if they are only going to be a DVR company anyway then why not just be such a great DVR company that everyone see's them as a necessary accessory?


----------



## dswallow

MichaelK said:


> everyone seems to focus on how many more DVR's tivo will sell with 'smart tv apps'. But the opposite is also relevant- how many people wont bother adding a Tivo DVR if it doesn't have 'smart tv apps'. While I think that latter group is larger than the former I'm sure it's still probably small at this point but as smart apps get to be more prevalent then people aren't going to want to add a tivo and forgo smart apps on input 1. (and there's less and less need for a DVR as you can get more and more of the content from the smart apps anyway....)
> 
> I's have to think of the repercussions but as I type this I can't help but wonder if TiVo shouldn't work with Roku, Nintendo, xbox, Samsung/LG/Sony/any smart tv maker to build tivo client apps into their devices and start selling tivo as an accessory to those who want to make a real effort to be the king on input 1. Tivo seems to be ceding the space anyway and if they are only going to be a DVR company anyway then why not just be such a great DVR company that everyone see's them as a necessary accessory?


I suspect you'll see third-party devices incorporating the ability to be TiVo extenders (like the TiVo Mini) once they get the Mini out the door into retail; it's just the natural next step (and it'd probably be more "natural" for them to have been working with Roku in the first place to produce a Roku TiVo Mini as the first-to-retail device).

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-11/tivo-mini-ip-stb-delayed-until-2013/


----------



## morac

dswallow said:


> I suspect you'll see third-party devices incorporating the ability to be TiVo extenders (like the TiVo Mini) once they get the Mini out the door into retail; it's just the natural next step (and it'd probably be more "natural" for them to have been working with Roku in the first place to produce a Roku TiVo Mini as the first-to-retail device).
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-11/tivo-mini-ip-stb-delayed-until-2013/


Except that I don't see how TiVo benefits if other companies sell expanders for TiVo. Not only does TiVo lose a DVR sale, but they can't make up the difference by selling an over-priced extender.

Not to mention if other companies sell devices that work as expanders, they would need to have a TSN since a TiVo box will only stream to other boxes on an account (the boxes download the TSNs from TiVo during a service connection). Also TiVo would need to share their encryption keys with other companies in order to stream.

I don't see that ever happening, unless it uses something like the TiVo Stream as a middleman.


----------



## dswallow

morac said:


> Except that I don't see how TiVo benefits if other companies sell expanders for TiVo. Not only does TiVo lose a DVR sale, but they can't make up the difference by selling an over-priced extender.


It becomes much more attractive to have TiVo DVR(s) in the home when you don't have to pay a regular fee for every TV where it's possible to view content from one. TiVo needs to provide the integrity of the recorded video to other devices, ensuring they don't permit unauthorized things to happen to the video, like storing it digitally; that could be provided for without TiVo "losing control". The current model may require TiVo having a record of a TSN for an IP device, but that doesn't have to be the case.


----------



## morac

dswallow said:


> It becomes much more attractive to have TiVo DVR(s) in the home when you don't have to pay a regular fee for every TV where it's possible to view content from one. TiVo needs to provide the integrity of the recorded video to other devices, ensuring they don't permit unauthorized things to happen to the video, like storing it digitally; that could be provided for without TiVo "losing control". The current model may require TiVo having a record of a TSN for an IP device, but that doesn't have to be the case.


I agree it's more attractive for users to not pay a fee for every TV, but TiVo isn't going to throw away revenue by not selling the extenders itself. Especially considering it has invested resources in the Mini. Maybe further down the line, they'll open it up, but not in the near future. If they did, the price of the XL4 would have to go up significantly, which is something I don't see happening.


----------



## Fofer

Do we know for sure yet that the TiVo Mini is *not* going to have a monthly fee? If it does, that'd be a deal-breaker (for me.)


----------



## morac

Fofer said:


> Do we know for sure yet that the TiVo Mini is not going to have a monthly fee? If it does, that'd be a deal-breaker (for me.)


I'd say it's extremely likely it won't since it won't need guide data or pretty much anything else (like the Stream). If it does, then why would anyone get one when they could just get another Premiere for $99?


----------



## Fofer

I dunno, maybe the monthly fee would be less than the standard TiVo monthly fee?

Some comments on the Zatznotfunny.com blog post gave me the impression that a monthly fee now wasn't out of the question. And that it might not even come to retail channels soon (if at all.) That it might be a cable MSO thing only. Yeesh.

I just hope it comes out soon, is less than $150, and carries no monthly fee. I could see myself getting two of them if that's the case.


----------



## morac

Fofer said:


> And that it might not even come to retail channels soon (if at all.) That it might be a cable MSO thing only. Yeesh.


There already is a cable MSO only box, but it has a tuner and takes a CableCARD. The mini won't have a tuner.


----------



## humm

How long do you think that Amazon Prime will include video on demand for no added cost?


----------



## mikeyts

humm said:


> How long do you think that Amazon Prime will include video on demand for no added cost?


I see no reason to expect that they'll stop it. Bezos has stated that he's constantly looking for stuff to add to Prime--he considered giving Prime member free Kindles at some point and finally settled on letting those of us with Kindles borrow a selection of books for free (currently a list of 256,000 titles, including the Harry Potter and _Hunger Games_ series). You can only borrow one title per month which makes reading a series a bit tedious but free is free .

People keep talking about Prime Instant Video being in competition with Netflix, but Amazon denies it and I believe them. It's an ancillary benefit of Prime subscription intended to increase its attraction. Getting people to sign up to no-extra-charge 2 day shipping is the point; once they have it they'll buy tons more merchandise from Amazon (I know that I do). Prime has been available for nearly 8 years, so Amazon obviously considers it to be a success. If they removed the no-extra-charge streaming video at this point it'd royally piss off a ton of their customers, probably a worse fiasco than Netflix's severing Watch Instantly from disc rentals.


----------



## CatScratchFever

I've had Prime for coming up to a year and I watched exactly zero video's in that time. I think I need to rethink my strategy, having Prime makes me spend more that I would usually spend on other things.


----------



## aaronwt

I have prime for the 2 day shipping. I've had it for most of the time it's been available. I tried to drop it and only use free shipping, but that only lasted three months and then I had to come back for the quicker shipping options.

I rarely use Amazon Prime streaming because when I've compared them, Netflix has typically done a better job with the content I've looked at from home. I can't even stream content form Amazon at my GFs house with her 1.2Mb/s DSL connection. But Netflix has no issues streaming. Of course it is SD but it does't look bad at my GFs at the distance we sit from her 42" set. But amazon can't even stream at that speed.

I typically use Amazon for TV show downloads to my TiVos. That is where Amazon really shines. Giving me 1080P24 content with 5.1 DD audio. While if I streamed the same content to my Amazon streaming devices, it would be limited to 720P.


----------



## morac

aaronwt said:


> I typically use Amazon for TV show downloads to my TiVos. That is where Amazon really shines. Giving me 1080P24 content with 5.1 DD audio. While if I streamed the same content to my Amazon streaming devices, it would be limited to 720P.


I have a feeling at some point this will go away. Currently Amazon encodes everything three times: one for PC download, one for TiVo download and one for streaming to all other devices. Cutting out the PC (Unbox player more or less abandoned) and TiVo encodes would cut down on the amount of work.

Amazon used to list the encoding rates on their web site (on the shows' pages), but apparently they've removed that info. On a side note, TiVo encodes don't support closed captioning as I believe those are WMV encodes.

Back on topic, I don't know what Amazon is doing, but on their help page for Amazon on TiVo, they state that "*Only one Amazon.com account can be registered to your TiVo device at a time. If someone in your household has an Amazon Prime membership, it's best to use that account so you can take full advantage of Prime Instant Video. Prime Instant Video provides unlimited streaming of thousands of movies and TV shows at no additional cost.*".

That seems to imply they will add streaming at some point, but at the top it state "*While Amazon Instant Video titles can be purchased and downloaded to your TiVo, Prime Instant Video titles can only be streamed and can't be shown through your TiVo.*"


----------



## MichaelK

morac said:


> ... but TiVo isn't going to throw away revenue by not selling the extenders itself. Especially considering it has invested resources in the Mini. Maybe further down the line, they'll open it up, but not in the near future. If they did, the price of the XL4 would have to go up significantly, which is something I don't see happening.


But is the revenue the reason for the the stream in the first place?

How much revenue is tivo going to make on streams? 20 bucks a box? How many Tivo DVR's exist sub'd? (I dont know)- is it like 4 million? Lets get crazy and assume they sell 4 million streams and make 20 bucks each. Even assuming they sell all of them in a year- what's that do- give them break even for the year? Maybe cover other losses for the year? 2 years? 3 years? (I mean the real losses- not including one time legal settlements)

I'm not up on tivo's finances so I dont know- but I get the sense the stream isn't going to stop the losses. So if the stream is not materially going to change their long term prospects based on the revenue it directly generates from sales- what IS the point?

One could argue that they just want the boxes out there so people buy amazon videos or whatnot on them and take those commissions. But since they, what's the word..., suck, at over the top apps that's not the best approach to make billions either.

So what's the point of the stream? To sell more DVR's and make the first TiVo indispensable? I am thinking that is the plan- to make the TiVo the best DVR that is available. If that's the reason then why not allow everyone and their brother to make a tivo streaming receiver? If every STB has a tivo app for streaming on it then everyone has a reason to get a tivo to add a superior DVR to there chosen input 1 box, whatever that may be.

As pointed out above they dont have unlimited time to exploit their patents so they have to do something to make themselves "THE" dvr to have.

Basically they need to decide if they want to own input 1 or hook into whoever does own input 1.


----------



## Fofer

It all comes down to "input 1," doesn't it?

I wish the way it worked was different. I wish you could have whatever settop boxes you wanted, and their capabilities and content and channels (or whatever) all blended together into one interface layer, with one universal smart remote control to control it all.

It's the input switching and the different remote schemes (even with your own programmed universal remote) and the inconsistent UI's that really kill it.

We need one company to come up with one UI, some TV interface standard, that ties it all together. Forward thinking and open so consumers could add whatever new boxes to the mix without needing to switch inputs or deal with multiple remote UI.

That would be the killer app for Television and the Living Room in 2013. Bring it on! (Apple?)


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## morac

You are describing the Smart TV Alliance - http://www.smarttv-alliance.org/


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## MichaelK

Fofer said:


> It all comes down to "input 1," doesn't it?
> 
> I wish the way it worked was different. I wish you could have whatever settop boxes you wanted, and their capabilities and content and channels (or whatever) all blended together into one interface layer, with one universal smart remote control to control it all.
> 
> It's the input switching and the different remote schemes (even with your own programmed universal remote) and the inconsistent UI's that really kill it.
> 
> We need one company to come up with one UI, some TV interface standard, that ties it all together. Forward thinking and open so consumers could add whatever new boxes to the mix without needing to switch inputs or deal with multiple remote UI.
> 
> That would be the killer app for Television and the Living Room in 2013. Bring it on! (Apple?)


I think it does come down to input one. So far for me (and I guess pretty much everyone else here) - Tivo is input 1. But I keep looking at - and more importantly- buying new things to try. In my case I bought a googltv box. I also can't wait to see what Wii U's tvii update later this month brings for tivo. For others it's xbox or roku or even the smart apps in their tv. Tivo risks getting pushed back to input 2 or 3. If Apple TV makes a bold move then it only gets worse for tivo.

I like your thinking- for probably a good decade now I've wondered why they dont build a TV/Monitor with expansion slots like a desktop PC. Want a DVR- slap in the card. Want cable- slap in the cablebox tuner card. Want dbs- slap in the dbs tuner card. Want OTA add an ATSC card, etc, etc. (I guess now that tv's are as thick as pcmcia cards maybe they would all need to be USB dongle like that roku stick thing....)

Let the tv maker build an OS and then the cards would have "app" software built in sort of like a PC with programs you install.


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## slowbiscuit

Fofer said:


> We need one company to come up with one UI, some TV interface standard, that ties it all together. Forward thinking and open so consumers could add whatever new boxes to the mix without needing to switch inputs or deal with multiple remote UI.
> 
> That would be the killer app for Television and the Living Room in 2013. Bring it on! (Apple?)


That sounds like something Apple could do, but Apple has never meant open. Apple means buying Apple, with all the pros and cons that go with that.


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