# Tivo Premiere reviewed by engadget



## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

http://engadget.com/2010/03/24/tivo-premiere-review/
The flagship dvr did not fare too well

It maybe time for people to jump on the Moxi DVR bandwagon. However Moxi dvrs are currently backordered due to popularity.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

Wow. It's worse than I thought. Very slow and unresponsive. It also sounds like the new interface will not be made system wide for a long time either. Many parts use the old interface. Same old listing grid too. I really see no point in releasing it now. It's clearly not ready at all.


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## kevinwill1 (Apr 18, 2004)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Wow. It's worse than I thought. Very slow and unresponsive. It also sounds like the new interface will not be made system wide for a long time either. Many parts use the old interface. Same old listing grid too. I really see no point in releasing it now. It's clearly not ready at all.


Yeah, it looks like it needs to be put back in the oven a little while longer.  This is a head-scratcher for sure. Hopefully they will have some system updates very soon after official launch.


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## SafariKC (Mar 6, 2000)

For those who find your way here, there's a more active thread on the reaction to reviews in the Premiere Forum:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=445460


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

Ugh. I preordered the XL. I am probably going to cancel the order. The one thing I can't stand is lag in the interface. I already have 2 TivoHDs, so the only feature I get is the interface

Anyone else thinking about canceling?


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## SafariKC (Mar 6, 2000)

dbtom said:


> Anyone else thinking about canceling?


Yes... I've canceled mine. They need to prove themselves a bit more here before i decide to jump in.


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## RayChuang88 (Sep 5, 2002)

Why does all your comments make me kiss my TiVo HD XL all the more? 

The response on my DVR is fairly decent, and HD recording quality is outstanding (I just played back a recording of the new episode of _Mythbusters_ and it looked just as good as the "live" version. :up:


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## greensky (Mar 3, 2010)

I canceled my order as well. It looks really half-baked.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

RayChuang88 said:


> Why does all your comments make me kiss my TiVo HD XL all the more?


I can't imagine why. The Premiere is still better than the HD in every way, AFAICT. Just switch it to the classic interface if the new one is slow, and it should outperform the older units.


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## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> Just switch it to the classic interface if the new one is slow, and it should outperform the older units.


Well, that's certainly not a good enough reason alone to lay out the extra cash to upgrade to a S4.

I quite frankly couldn't understand why the reviewer kept harping on how laggy the S4 interface is. I wonder how much time he spent using aned S3 because I find my THD to be kind of laggy as well. I just learned to live with it.


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

From Cnet :http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20001128-1.html


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> I can't imagine why. The Premiere is still better than the HD in every way, AFAICT. Just switch it to the classic interface if the new one is slow, and it should outperform the older units.


_"Now that you've purchased your new vehicle with the 4-wheel drive option, just make sure you don't try to actually use the option, because it won't work very well and will likely make for a far less safe or stable ride. Overall, however, we feel this new model will outpeform its predecessors."_


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

Don't but TiVo Premiere, all the other reviews say it s-l-o-w.....


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Don't but TiVo Premiere, all the other reviews say it s-l-o-w.....


It's slow in the current HD UI software. In everything else, it leaves the TiVo HD and Series3 in the dust.

Check the benchmarks. Check the video.

Be aware all of these tests were run under the classic software.


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## TivoCentral (Jul 23, 2006)

fatlard said:


> http://engadget.com/2010/03/24/tivo-premiere-review/


And there you have it: Technology 101!

Software, for various financial and marketing reasons, getting pushed out the door before it's 100% baked. This will only become more common as hardware becomes more flexible, based on firmware and software updates.

Most people understand this (Windows Vista, Windows 7), and that's why there are increasingly two groups of "early adopters" --- those who "gotta have it now" (and will tolerate some annoyances until the software is fully updated)... and those who wait 6-12 months until the early bugs are worked out.

From both reviews, it seems like the new interface itself rocks, it just needs updates, the other core, and for the UI to go all the way through the experience, not just the top menu.

And of course there's the inevitable "I wish all the options (wireless, keyboard remote) were standard --- for the same price, of course!"

Ironically, I think if you asked enthusiasts if they'd rather have waited for Premiere, they (including me) would say, "I want it now --- release it, even with a few bugs". No one's forcing us to buy it.

Don't get me wrong --- given all the hype, I was disappointed, too. But while I wish it did everything under the sun, I am confident that TiVo will keep updating and adding the features that people want (thank you, patent money!).

Personally, I sold my last S2, I'm keeping my HD, and I'm buying a Premiere (in part to lock in the upgrade deal), but will probably run it mostly with the old UI for a few months. If experience is any indicator, updates will just keep making it better and better over the next few months and years.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

Tivo is finding out just how difficult multi-threaded programming is for dual/multi core processors. Once they get the hang of it, the whole thing can double its performance. I see many comments in the review that are positive and will keep my order. The problematic nature of cable cards has to be better now than a couple of years ago. Slimmer, trimmer, all black and double the HD recording capacity for $229 still gets my vote and money.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wow- that reviewer just upset me. He totally and completely dissed the Moxi and Digeo/Arris. Does he have any idea what is actually going on in the DVR market?


from article said:


> But TiVo's also historically been the only real alternative -- no other company has ever entered the mainstream DVR market with a great product at scale and at a competitive price, and that means TiVo's never had to really compete against anything except its own extremely popular products. That's a recipe for timid incremental change, which is exactly what the Premiere feels like --


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Tivo is finding out just how difficult multi-threaded programming is for dual/multi core processors. Once they get the hang of it, the whole thing can double its performance.


Unless this turns out like M-card support on the Series 3. Yes, we support the dual core processor, but only in single core mode.

Don't assume software that is not available. We have history here.

Al


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Tivo is finding out just how difficult multi-threaded programming is for dual/multi core processors. Once they get the hang of it...


My impression is that all programming is difficult for TiVo and they have never gotten the hang of it. I don't know if this is due to an obsolete and brittle code base or just sloppy engineering and/or poor QA, but so much of what they do seems half-baked.

I find it kind of ironic that we're all looking forward to "what may come in the future" given all the posts made in the "S3 Owners screwed" thread asserting that those who had expectations for the future over and above what was delivered at the time of purchase were foolish and unrealistic.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

TivoCentral said:


> And there you have it: Technology 101!
> 
> Software, for various financial and marketing reasons, getting pushed out the door before it's 100% baked. This will only become more common as hardware becomes more flexible, based on firmware and software updates.
> 
> ...


TiVo has a terrible track record of "completing" things. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they are putting more work into "Premiere Series 2" than they are into Premiere before too long.

You are effectively gambling with your money that TiVo can execute and they don't have a history of executing very well.

Look at the issues;

1. No multi-cpu support.

2. 80% of UI not written in HD.

3. Audio dropouts when switching between viewing modes.

4. No updated program guide.

5. Missing major touted features such as Pandora, etc.

6. No new software for core features like Netflix.

You really think they are going to have all that ready this summer? There's almost no way. It will be 12 months at the very earliest. In that 12 months the product price will plummet because this turkey isn't going to sell.

There is a very real possibility that TiVo simply scraps this generation 1/2 way through development, screwing over their customers, so that they can start working on the next product.

TiVo upper management needs to be FIRED! :down::down::down: <press enter for reboot>


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## TivoCentral (Jul 23, 2006)

jmpage2 said:


> You really think they are going to have all that ready this summer? There's almost no way. It will be 12 months at the very earliest. In that 12 months the product price will plummet...


Early adopters will still 'early adopt' (they always do), and if you're right, when more of the improvements are fully realized, at an even lower price (although I must admit I'm skeptical about your lower price theory; that hasn't been TiVo's MO), it will finally start GAINING subscribers!

I hope you're right about that!


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

TivoCentral said:


> Early adopters will still 'early adopt' (they always do), and if you're right, when more of the improvements are fully realized, at an even lower price (although I must admit I'm skeptical about your lower price theory; that hasn't been TiVo's MO), it will finally start GAINING subscribers!
> 
> I hope you're right about that!


Well, I think we have an explanation for why the DirecTiVo based on Premiere has not shipped.

DirecTV probably has refused it in the current state.

TiVo won't be gaining subscribers, they will be shedding them even faster.

A feature complete Premiere with a few extra goodies and an all inclusive price (no more monthly/annual plans BS) would have sold.

This box will not be selling. I fully predict it will be a VERY bad year for TiVo, with a possible turnaround at year's end if they can get a major provider to sell the Premiere box in place of their own DVR.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> It's slow in the current HD UI software. In everything else, it leaves the TiVo HD and Series3 in the dust.
> 
> Check the benchmarks. Check the video.
> 
> Be aware all of these tests were run under the classic software.


They should have used a lower level coding to make sure the speed is there, but they used the Adobe Flash, so this is hi level programming on a slow processor. They should use a 1GHz cpu that will allow the flash to run faster.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

fatlard said:


> It maybe time for people to jump on the Moxi DVR bandwagon. However Moxi dvrs are currently backordered due to popularity.


Media center baby...


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## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

jmpage2 said:


> Well, I think we have an explanation for why the DirecTiVo based on Premiere has not shipped.
> 
> DirecTV probably has refused it in the current state.


I don't remember where I read it, but I believe someone at Tivo recently (in the last month) said that the new DirecTivo's will *not* use the new UI.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> TiVo upper management needs to be FIRED! :down::down::down: <press enter for reboot>


1000% agreed


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## kevinwill1 (Apr 18, 2004)

NotVeryWitty said:


> I don't remember where I read it, but I believe someone at Tivo recently (in the last month) said that the new DirecTivo's will *not* use the new UI.


Here's a link from another thread that mentions it briefly...

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=188664&site=lr_cable&f_src=lightreading_gnews

But who knows what will or won't change between now and whenever the new machine comes to life for the masses. Things change all the time, so you never know, but I somehow doubt this plan will change.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

mrsean said:


> Well, that's certainly not a good enough reason alone to lay out the extra cash to upgrade to a S4.


Maybe, maybe not. It depends what you want out of it. Personally, I never wanted to replace my S3s, nor did I really care about the new UI. But a unit that finally makes TTG usable, _that's_ something I want. (Of course now I suppose Verizon will start using the CCI flag.) And it would be a great upgrade for my S2.

I also need one in order to support and develop software for it, but obviously I'm not speaking as a user there.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> I find it kind of ironic that we're all looking forward to "what may come in the future" given all the posts made in the "S3 Owners screwed" thread asserting that those who had expectations for the future over and above what was delivered at the time of purchase were foolish and unrealistic.


ahh, the interwebs; Ironic is thy name


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

fatlard said:


> It maybe time for people to jump on the Moxi DVR bandwagon. However Moxi dvrs are currently backordered due to popularity.


yeah, all those factories Arris put up are going full speed.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> They should have used a lower level coding to make sure the speed is there, but they used the Adobe Flash, so this is hi level programming on a slow processor. They should use a 1GHz cpu that will allow the flash to run faster.


wow, that is just all kinds of wrong


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## kevinwill1 (Apr 18, 2004)

Well here is a more positive review from PC Mag...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2361786,00.asp

I don't know if this would help anyone feel better or not, but I thought I would share. This review seems to indicate that a current TiVo user would find the new machine more beneficial than someone who would be brand new.


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## scummybear (Mar 3, 2010)

I didn't think the reviews were all that bad really. They were done as a review should be done. They gave you the pros and cons of the TiVo Premiere. Some people won't buy it, and some of us will. 

As for myself, being new to TiVo, I can deal with a little bit of lag. Still looks pretty slick and I am still looking forward to it. Perhaps longtime TiVo fans are disappointed because it isn't what they wanted or asked for, but I think it looks good so far to someone who is new to TiVo like myself.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

kevinwill1 said:


> Well here is a more positive review from PC Mag...
> 
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2361786,00.asp
> 
> I don't know if this would help anyone feel better or not, but I thought I would share. This review seems to indicate that a current TiVo user would find the new machine more beneficial than someone who would be brand new.


Here's another one that didn't find as much fault with the Premiere from USA Today: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/edwardbaig/2010-03-25-baig25_ST_N.htm


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Can you turn off the new interface and still get all the new features combining internet and cable content? 

Or does going back to the old interface mean losing out on the new internet features?


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Why would fatlard, a devoted moxi user, only post the worst review he could find? Seems rather suspicious to me. I'm just sayin'


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

daveak said:


> Why would fatlard, a devoted moxi user, only post the worst review he could find? Seems rather suspicious to me. I'm just sayin'


That the first one I found. If you can find a positive, all thumbs up review, of Tivo Premiere please post that one. But I think most of them go in line with the review from engadget

or if you have a recent negative review of Moxi, please post that one.. most recent ones have been favorable.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

I'd probably buy just to get the increased throughput over the network. I use MRV A LOT. Anyone want to buy a stock THD? Make me an offer...


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

fatlard said:


> That the first one I found. If you can find a positive, all thumbs up review, of Tivo Premiere please post that one. But I think most of them go in line with the review from engadget
> 
> or if you have a recent negative review of Moxi, please post that one.. most recent ones have been favorable.


Here is the initial engadgetHD review of Moxi, to compare against the initial Premier review. Only fair to share initial impressions...
http://hd.engadget.com/2009/04/21/moxi-hd-dvr-initial-impressions/

And then another, from cruchgear, just for kicks and grins.
http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/05/04/review-moxi-hd-dvr/

You know the S3, compared to now and three years ago, has really grown in available features. I would expect, even within the next year, we will see a growth in ability and features with the Premier.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

daveak said:


> Here is the initial engadgetHD review of Moxi, to compare against the initial Premier review. Only fair to share initial impressions...
> http://hd.engadget.com/2009/04/21/moxi-hd-dvr-initial-impressions/
> 
> And then another, from cruchgear, just for kicks and grins.
> ...


Those are from a year ago.

Here are some recent ones

Moxi reviewed at 18 minute mark.




Moxi described as solid

http://www.avguide.com/review/moxi-h...fect-vision-85

http://www.buying-hdtv.com/TB/?P=3291

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-vide...html?tag=rtcol


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> Can you turn off the new interface and still get all the new features combining internet and cable content?
> 
> Or does going back to the old interface mean losing out on the new internet features?


As far as I can tell, there aren't any new Internet features -- that stuff is already available on the S3/HD. But maybe I'm missing something. I dunno... the rep I talked to yesterday seemed to think the new interface was all about the Internet, but to me it seems more like hype, to get people to notice all the Internet integration they've already been doing. (And it's clearly working on that level, since I see reviewers talking about longstanding features as though they were new in the Premiere.)

Unless you mean the cover art stuff.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

True, they are from last year. I was merely comparing *initial product reviews* and Moxi did *poorly* in those reviews. If you want to compare reviews on existing products that have been out for awhile, then you should compare reviews of the Moxi vs the S3. Even three years ago, the initial S3 reviews were better than the Moxi reviews.



fatlard said:


> Those are from a year ago.
> 
> Here are some recent ones
> 
> ...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

acvthree said:


> Unless this turns out like M-card support on the Series 3. Yes, we support the dual core processor, but only in single core mode.
> 
> Don't assume software that is not available. We have history here.
> 
> Al


Agreed. This goes not just for TiVo. Buy for what it DOES, not for what they vaguely claim it MIGHT do...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

daveak said:


> True, they are from last year. I was merely comparing *initial product reviews* and Moxi did *poorly* in those reviews. If you want to compare reviews on existing products that have been out for awhile, then you should compare reviews of the Moxi vs the S3. Even three years ago, the initial S3 reviews were better than the Moxi reviews.


but that is not fair - the Moxi is much better now then when it first came out.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> but that is not fair - the Moxi is much better now then when it first came out.


And even the S3 is better then when it first came out so many years ago (in tech time  )... And it has always reviewed better than the current Moxi product.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

The decision to get a S4 gets a lot easier if you live in a neighborhood with electricity costs like mine. My marginal cost for electricity is about $.44/kwh. The S4 takes 25 watts, the HD 38 watts and with my expander, I'm assuming around 44 watts. Assuming cost of money and inflation in energy costs roughly offset, that means I'll save about $340 in energy costs over a five year period. In my case, the HD doesn't have lifetime, so I assumed the costs of adding it to each box roughly equal out at $199. (this price can be $99, $199, $299 or $399 for different situations which would impact the analysis although I don't know why anyone should want to pay more than $199 for lifetime on a HD at this stage of it's life). So if the residual value of my HD plus expander is around $160 or more (it is for me; my daughter wants it), the S4 XL is cost justified, ignoring the benefits of having new architecture, new software potential, more processor power, a better remote and 1TB instead of 660GB. I can run the S4 in "old" mode and even then, there are some small functional benefits to go along with better response time.

Maybe this isn't a perfect analysis, but it worked with the wife, which was all that was important to me anyway since I want to play with the new box.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

44 cents per kwh? The national average is 11 cents. That seems like an unusually high amount, I have never heard of anyone paying nearly half a dollar per thousand watts used.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

wmcbrine said:


> As far as I can tell, there aren't any new Internet features -- that stuff is already available on the S3/HD. But maybe I'm missing something. I dunno... the rep I talked to yesterday seemed to think the new interface was all about the Internet, but to me it seems more like hype, to get people to notice all the Internet integration they've already been doing. (And it's clearly working on that level, since I see reviewers talking about longstanding features as though they were new in the Premiere.)
> 
> Unless you mean the cover art stuff.


No I mean the search stuff. The side by side search presentation of internet and broadcast content. That seems like the big new feature although a few reviews said it isn't "complete" enough yet.

If you switch off the fancy schmancy interface do you still get that stuff?

Do you still get the other new search capabilities like the ability search for say "romantic comedies?"


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

To be honest, I've been hoping to see a video of the old UI on the new Premiere too! To see the speed, etc and if it is exactly the same as TivoHD or if 30 sec skip is still missing, etc. I am pretty sure that when I eventually get a Premiere I am going old skool with it.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

jmpage2 said:


> 44 cents per kwh? The national average is 11 cents. That seems like an unusually high amount, I have never heard of anyone paying nearly half a dollar per thousand watts used.


None of that matters. His analysis worked with the wife and she accepted it, and now he gets a new box. The purpose and intent of his math and figures were unchallenged and agreed to buy the only real person who could possibly block (or make unpleasant) the purchase.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jmpage2 said:


> 44 cents per kwh? The national average is 11 cents. That seems like an unusually high amount, I have never heard of anyone paying nearly half a dollar per thousand watts used.


In CT I pay near $0.17 /KWH; $0.1030/KWR Generation Srvc Charg + Delivery Charg of $0.072/KWH = $0.175/KWH


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

scummybear said:


> I didn't think the reviews were all that bad really. They were done as a review should be done. They gave you the pros and cons of the TiVo Premiere. Some people won't buy it, and some of us will.
> 
> As for myself, being new to TiVo, I can deal with a little bit of lag. Still looks pretty slick and I am still looking forward to it. Perhaps longtime TiVo fans are disappointed because it isn't what they wanted or asked for, but I think it looks good so far to someone who is new to TiVo like myself.


the Premiere will be my first Tivo as well... I also didn't think the reviews were that bad


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> 44 cents per kwh? The national average is 11 cents. That seems like an unusually high amount, I have never heard of anyone paying nearly half a dollar per thousand watts used.


Now you can't say that any longer. I actually pay marginal rates of almost $.46 during peak hours. The rates I pay are based upon consumption. At the basic amount level, the cost is around $.11, but at the highest tier which I'm at, which is over 300% of the base amount, the cost is about $.44/kwh. Not that PG&E pays that much for the power; it's supposed to make me more energy cost aware and reduce my usage--little chance with a reasonably large house and a swimming pool.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> No I mean the search stuff.


That's all on the S3/HD via the "TiVo Search Beta" (or even the older Swivel Search, for most of it) under "Music, Photos and More", AFAIK. (?)


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> 44 cents per kwh? The national average is 11 cents. That seems like an unusually high amount, I have never heard of anyone paying nearly half a dollar per thousand watts used.


I take it you don't live in California.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Nope, I don't live in CA. I also don't use thousands of kWh per month either though. We are putting a 33 panel solar system on our home this year to offset what we do use. Should produce over 10000 kWh per year.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

jmpage2 said:


> Nope, I don't live in CA. I also don't use thousands of kWh per month either though. We are putting a 33 panel solar system on our home this year to offset what we do use. Should produce over 10000 kWh per year.


What is an istalled cost of your system? What are your estimated maintanance costs? What state are you in?


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

Doesn't fair well for this new an hardly improved device


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

tivogurl said:


> I take it you don't live in California.


Yet another reason not to live in the land of fruits and nuts.

<ducking>


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## mamosley (Apr 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> but that is not fair - the Moxi is much better now then when it first came out.


I tried a moxi at the beginning of February and could not stand it. It was worse?


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

samo said:


> What is an istalled cost of your system? What are your estimated maintanance costs? What state are you in?


I'm in colorado. Solar has almost negligent maintenance other than replacing the power inverter once every 12-15 years.

Between federal tax credit and the immediate up-front rebate by the local utility, the system cost is low enough that we will break even on it in about 11 yrs. Every year after that is over $1000 back in our pocket.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

mamosley said:


> I tried a moxi at the beginning of February and could not stand it. It was worse?


 Loudly.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

"*It's been three years since the TiVo HD first arrived and just about a year and a half since TiVo first started beta testing this interface, and after using the Premiere for a day, here's what we want to know: what the hell has TiVo been doing all this time?*"

Exactly.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> Nope, I don't live in CA. I also don't use thousands of kWh per month either though. We are putting a 33 panel solar system on our home this year to offset what we do use. Should produce over 10000 kWh per year.


For clarification, I don't use thousands of kwh/month. Last month I used 1,247 kwh.

It's misleading to indicate that I pay almost $.50/kwh for electricity. PG&E has a tiered charging system which costs me $.093 for the first 322 kwh during off-peak and $.119 for on-peak hours up to 68 kwh, incrementing up to $.459 for on-peak and $.433 for off-peak when over 300% of baseline usage. My average charge/kwh last month was about $.24/kwh, about double the national average (partially due to Enron) but not close to 50 cents.

It's fair for TiVo marketing to use $.117 average for the cost of electricity when calculating the cost of running a S4 system but it can be misleading to the consumer. If one is adding a new system, then the consumer should use their marginal cost of electricity in calculating the additional cost. Likewise, in replacing a system with a S4, once should use the marginal cost in calculating the savings. For those with a flat rate costing system, marginal = average cost so the issue doesn't exist.

Use of high marginal rates really works well when justifying replacing a S2 with a S4, since the S2 commonly will attach via a cable company STB so that electricity costs for both the S2 and the STB can be used along with whatever monthly costs the consumer is paying to the cable company for the STB in excess of a cable card fee. For many consumers, making the replacement decision should be a no-brainer when they evaluate it carefully.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

jmpage2 said:


> I'm in colorado. Solar has almost negligent maintenance other than replacing the power inverter once every 12-15 years.
> 
> Between federal tax credit and the immediate up-front rebate by the local utility, the system cost is low enough that we will break even on it in about 11 yrs. Every year after that is over $1000 back in our pocket.


I'm also in Colorado, so as far as number of sunny days goes you are fine. But 11 years payback is too much. Regardless what installer told you, solar cells dont last that long. Power inverter is a hit or miss - manufacturer's warranty is most likely no longer than a year, but it can last longer. You need to make sure to keep your surface clean - brown dust storms are the killers. Plus don't forget - you are sure to have 2 or 3 hail storms on a sunny day comming out of nowhere in 11 years. Solar cell panels make sense if you are a "green" person, but they don't make economic sense yet.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

samo said:


> I'm also in Colorado, so as far as number of sunny days goes you are fine. But 11 years payback is too much. Regardless what installer told you, solar cells dont last that long. Power inverter is a hit or miss - manufacturer's warranty is most likely no longer than a year, but it can last longer. You need to make sure to keep your surface clean - brown dust storms are the killers. Plus don't forget - you are sure to have 2 or 3 hail storms on a sunny day comming out of nowhere in 11 years. Solar cell panels make sense if you are a "green" person, but they don't make economic sense yet.


I have to disagree. A lot of this is simply a myth (and goes a long way towards explaining the limited adoption of solar panels and even in some cases hostility about them). Most of the solar cells that were installed in the late 1970's or early 1980's are still producing over 80% of their original output level after over 20 years. Kyocera, who is supplying our panels has a test rig that they installed over 24 years ago that is still putting out over 90% of the output power from when they were first set up. In reality no modern (20 years or newer) solar panels have *ever* simply 'worn out'. We really don't know what the absolutely maximum lifespan of the panels is, but it's entirely possible that they will still be producing something like 75% of their original output power 50 years from now, when we will likely be dead (and not using them any more).

The new cells are even more efficient than this. They are initially rated at a minimum of 215 watts +5/-0 which means that they will be producing at least the 215 that they are rated for, and possibly more.

They are rated by the manufacturer for a MAX degradation of 0.75% power production per year and they are *warrantied for twenty five years*.

The panels use a tempered glass that can withstand a direct impact from a 1" diameter hailstone traveling at 90 mph. Since they are installed at a 30 degree angle, and hail rarely impacts at this high degree of inclination, they can, in reality withstand an even larger impact.

I really don't know where you are getting your information, but some real research as well as talking to actual system owners would probably go a long way towards setting you straight so that you don't continue to propagate myths and misinformation.

Independent cost/benefit analysis from a 3rd party analysis company shows that we will break even on our investment after 10/11 years assuming energy continues to increase at 5% per year in cost.

At 20 years, assuming we have replaced the inverter, we will have banked over $15,000 in savings. Seeing as you live in Colorado you should be aware that Excel is offering a $2.70 up front cash rebate per watt of installed capacity. There is a Federal Tax Credit for another 30% of the out of pocket cost. That means that a $30,000 system will in actuality cost you less than $12,000 out of pocket. Seeing as the system produces over $1,000 of electricity per year it's not difficult to see that it won't take too long to break even.

Could something catastrophic happen and wipe our solar grid out before we get our money out of it? Yes, anything is possible, and that's what home owner's insurance is for. They are covering the entire system at no added cost to us. We just pay our deductible if they are damaged by freak occurrence and the system will be repaired or replaced.


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