# non TiVO DVR is HORRIFIC



## AutoJames (Jul 26, 2004)

i installed a new DirectTivo for my sister in law last night. They got a new one from Best Buy and though it still had a TiVO symbol on the box, there was nothing TiVO about it.

Am i over reacting to the interface? Do I just think it's horrible because I am so used to the TiVO interface of the previous versions? Or is it truly as horrific as I think?

Things that were a single button push away with the old system are buried 2 or 3 levels deep in little menus. Things that were 2 button pushes away in TiVO are buried even deeper and require the use of unlabeled color buttons to get to.

And if possible the menu navigation is even slower than on the Series2 devices.

Can this really be the device that they have been working on for so long? If so then their IT department needs a house cleaning, or perhaps they just need to hire some interface designers away from TiVO 

My visceral reaction to the thing is so intense at this moment that when I have to give up my Series2 at some time in the future, unless they have fixed this garbage I'm going to either go with Cable or go with a separate TiVO even with the increased cost...

DTV laid an egg with this new device as far as I'm concerned...


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

It seems unlikely that there was a TiVo logo on the box. Are you sure?


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

My R15 was in a white and blue box no Tivo logo anywhere.


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## srs5694 (Oct 14, 2001)

stevel said:


> It seems unlikely that there was a TiVo logo on the box. Are you sure?


Compare the box to the box's contents. It's conceivable that somebody bought two devices, returned one to the store in the other's box, and that the store then resold the thing without checking its contents too closely. If so, the device should definitely be returned to the store for replacement with a new (unopened) DirecTiVo.


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## Rax (Jun 11, 2002)

R15s don't have TiVo logos on them.


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## AutoJames (Jul 26, 2004)

well, she said there was a TiVO on the box, but they were looking at several different ones and so the one they finally got probably wasn't that then.

But that doesn't change the fact that it's a poor substitute at best.

Am I missing some wonderfulness about this new box?


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## Steve1212 (Dec 1, 2004)

AutoJames said:


> well, she said there was a TiVO on the box, but they were looking at several different ones and so the one they finally got probably wasn't that then.
> 
> But that doesn't change the fact that it's a poor substitute at best.
> 
> Am I missing some wonderfulness about this new box?


Nope the R15 sucks badly. It is a cheap knock-off. Directv needs to rethink releasing the HR20-250 and stop making the R15 and sign back up with TiVo.


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## SpacemanSpiff (Jan 31, 2004)

You take that back! The R15 is the greatest thing since sliced DVRs! I'm so glad D* dropped the cartoonish TiVo and went with an Adult DVR!

Sorry, I was just channeling my inner cmtar.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

:up:
Very funny, now i have to clean off my LCD screen.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Should I chime in? 

Nah... I stay out of this one.

As for any other "TiVo" powered products... not going to happen.


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## tomo_kun (Sep 8, 2003)

The R15 is not that bad people. It records all of my progams nicely, i actually like the non auto correcting fastforward/rewind, and i deffinaitly prefer the guide over the TiVo guide (I prefer to have the small box instead of having the guide infront).


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

SpacemanSpiff said:


> You take that back! The R15 is the greatest thing since sliced DVRs! I'm so glad D* dropped the cartoonish TiVo and went with an Adult DVR!
> 
> Sorry, I was just channeling my inner cmtar.


I really bet that any previous long term user of a TiVo would NOT make that strong of a statement. Any new GUI interface that isn't almost 7 years old (98SE compared to Vista) would have to improve. Especially since the development and GUI tools would have improved greatly, as an example Visual Basic 6.0 and Visual Basic 2005.

But even more importantly, it is what happens inside the DVR that makes it the useful tool. If I had a DVR that (as reported by R15 users as a problem, see other forum) would not record some Season Passes for no apparent reason, after a few of months of fighting that problem _*that DVR would be toast *_ (either sent back, sold, or used for parts), no matter how nice the GUI was, and I would not buy another DVR that used that same software. If I remember from the NDS forums, that specific problem has been reported for years with their software and the problem has never been resolved. Let us all hope for the sake of the R15 users that NDS finally fixes this long term problem. I did notice in a quote from a NDS/DirecTV spokesperson that "They had not identified that problem, yet? or a statement somewhat like that.

One last thought, *a sliced DVR wouldn't work really well*.

Additional Edit:

I have no real first hand experience with the R15, but it is very unlikely that I will ever have first hand experience with that box, for many reasons far too numerous to cover in this post.


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## austin61 (Jun 3, 2005)

Gunnyman said:


> My R15 was in a white and blue box no Tivo logo anywhere.


Gunny, You have an R15? When's the zipper for that coming out?


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

austin61 said:


> Gunny, You have an R15? When's the zipper for that coming out?


     

10th of Neveruary.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

SpacemanSpiff said:


> You take that back! The R15 is the greatest thing since sliced DVRs! I'm so glad D* dropped the cartoonish TiVo and went with an Adult DVR!
> 
> Sorry, I was just channeling my inner cmtar.


He should be by soon. Heaven forbib you say anything bad about D*!! Is he ruperts son? Does his mother work there? Perhaps his uncle? He does not work there! He has no stock! His Girlfriend or her boyfriend perhaps? The Cmtar D* love affair mystery. Fess up! Why you luv dem so much and why cant anyone say anything bad.

Wait I got it. Cmtar's real name is John Direc Teevee (therefore every bad thing said is a direc insult) Actually his or her name is D* (the artist formally known as Directeevee!)

Sorry Cmtar jus some Humor


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

tbeckner said:


> I really bet that any previous long term user of a TiVo would NOT make that strong of a statement. Any new GUI interface that isn't almost 7 years old (98SE compared to Vista) would have to improve. Especially since the development and GUI tools would have improved greatly, as an example Visual Basic 6.0 and Visual Basic 2005.
> 
> But even more importantly, it is what happens inside the DVR that makes it the useful tool. If I had a DVR that (as reported by R15 users as a problem, see other forum) would not record some Season Passes for no apparent reason, after a few of months of fighting that problem _*that DVR would be toast *_ (either sent back, sold, or used for parts), no matter how nice the GUI was, and I would not buy another DVR that used that same software. If I remember from the NDS forums, that specific problem has been reported for years with their software and the problem has never been resolved. Let us all hope for the sake of the R15 users that NDS finally fixes this long term problem. I did notice in a quote from a NDS/DirecTV spokesperson that "They had not identified that problem, yet? or a statement somewhat like that.
> 
> ...


Yikes!! Never heard of sarcasm have we! check out the last line of spacemans post and put 2 and 2 together


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Should I chime in?
> 
> Nah... I stay out of this one.
> 
> As for any other "TiVo" powered products... not going to happen.


 I hope not I was looking forward to the tivo Coffe maker, The tivo powered litterbox( It skips past the Poop), The The 2006 Tivo Barretta hardtop coupe( It skips pastt the cops) and the Tivo Coffin(It skips past everything    )


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## austin61 (Jun 3, 2005)

Gunnyman said:


> 10th of Neveruary.


I guess I'll wait until then to pick one up. 
What are your thoughts on the R15?


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

It ain't a Tivo...
It's a great sat receiver that happens to be a DVR.
A Dtivo is a great DVR that happens to be a sat receiver.


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## SpacemanSpiff (Jan 31, 2004)

Interesting comparison there.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I'd been struggling with a way to say that for a while and it just kinda made sense when I wrote it.


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## SpacemanSpiff (Jan 31, 2004)

So I guess the question is, which is more important to the mix? The Receiver or the Recorder?


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

SpacemanSpiff said:


> So I guess the question is, which is more important to the mix? The Receiver or the Recorder?


Neither Its the color of the box it comes in. That makes all the diference.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

SpacemanSpiff said:


> So I guess the question is, which is more important to the mix? The Receiver or the Recorder?


It depends on how you want to watch tv.

Directv's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual says, "(TiVo) is a great interface for watching what's been recorded, (But it's) not so great for live TV" and as Chase Carey said many times in their last conference call, they're all about "improving the live tv viewing experience".

If you just want to watch live tv (as it seems directv wants you to), the receiver is most important.

If you want to watch what you want, when you want, dependably, the recorder is most important.
____________________________
Gunnyman said it best:
"(The r15) a great sat receiver that happens to be a DVR.
A Dtivo is a great DVR that happens to be a sat receiver."


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

I think it's a jump jmoak to say that DTV wants you to watch live. What they want to do is improve the live TV experience for DVR users.

The only thing DTV wants is for your to sunscribe. Whether you ever watch or not probably means very little to them.


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## rick31621 (Jun 20, 2004)

The R15 sucks.
I'll gladly swap it for a new R10 if anyone is interested.


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## SpacemanSpiff (Jan 31, 2004)

Do most DVR users give a flying fark about the "Live" TV experience"?


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

SpacemanSpiff said:


> Do most DVR users give a flying fark about the "Live" TV experience"?


What do you have against Farks. I have a fark. Its a cute fark. As long as i keep its wings clipped its not a Flying Fark!


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

Billy66 said:


> I think it's a jump jmoak to say that DTV wants you to watch live. What they want to do is improve the live TV experience for DVR users.


Granted. I did take that jump a little far there, did'nt I.

But I'd hate to give up a great dvr experience for better live tv.

Not a good trade at all.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

jmoak said:


> It depends on how you want to watch tv.
> 
> Directv's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual says, "(TiVo) is a great interface for watching what's been recorded, (But it's) not so great for live TV" and as Chase Carey said many times in their last conference call, they're all about "improving the live tv viewing experience".
> 
> ...


I just don't see how the R-15 is supposed to improve live Tv viewing. I can flip between two shows, but I can't go back and see what I missed unlike Tivo.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

innocentfreak said:


> I just don't see how the R-15 is supposed to improve live Tv viewing. I can flip between two shows, but I can't go back and see what I missed unlike Tivo.


The DirecTV spokesman was doing the right thing for DirecTV, "If your product doesn't have the capability to compete in the current game, you change the game."

I highly doubt that any DVR user would actually buy a DVR just to watch live TV, even with the live TV pause capability.

But again, if you cannot compete, you CHANGE THE RULES OF THE GAME.

Also, a lot of crazy cable/analog TV watchers who have never owned a satellite receiver or a DVR, are really upset when they cannot channel surf like they could with their fast tuner TV. Of course, these users will be retrained, but it takes time to teach them to use a GRID or to smartly view TV by using some intelligence to pre-record what they really want to see.

I actually believe that the days of WATCHING WHATEVER IS CURRENTLY ON (being feed to us) is over. I also believe that the days where a highly rated show could help a lowly rated or new show gain viewers, just because it started right after it, is starting to fade away. With a DVR, people do less or NO channel surfing, almost no live TV viewing, and if they have used a DVR as long as I have (5+ years), they record almost 99% of the shows that they view, the one exception being for breaking news stories.

And we all have to remember our roots, black & white, 1 to 3 channels (VHF) at most, manual physical channel changer switch that you twisted on the front of the TV (no remote control, yes you have to physically get off the couch to change the channel) and no girded schedule of shows even in a newspaper.

Then came some big changes, cable happened (up to 8 or 10 VHF channels), then it was color (with a round tube) but only major shows on Saturday or Sunday, and the newspaper finally started printing a grid at least on weekends.

Then the remote controls with channel up & down, still with a manual switch on front of TV, which where followed by remotes with volume up & down and electronic tuners. Not long after the remotes came out more cable channels started to appear (beyond channel 13), and finally the Sony Betamax (I bought one in 1976).

Now you ask why anyone would want to go back to any of that. The answer is, that Nobody Does!, but then again, if the first DVR from the NDS and DirecTV marriage cannot compete, how do you refocus the debate? Simple, you change the RULES OF THE GAME and say that it is better at watching live TV, which based upon currently not having two true buffers, I would say that the DirecTV Spokesman maybe just wanted to change the immediate debate.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

If the R15 was developed to make the live tv experience better they screwed up bigtime without 2 buffers. 2 buffers actualy enhance my live tv, when i use it that is. They made livetv worse!  Although 2 buffers are not that important to me personally). I do use them ocasionaly. Watching 2 live news broadcasts for example. I dont have the desire to record them, I am generally looking for a particular story or to see 2 different viewpoints of the same story. 2 buffers made it easy to go back and forth.


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

jmoak said:


> It depends on how you want to watch tv.
> 
> Directv's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual says, "(TiVo) is a great interface for watching what's been recorded, (But it's) not so great for live TV" and as Chase Carey said many times in their last conference call, they're all about "improving the live tv viewing experience".
> 
> ...


I doubt DTV cares a bit that you get to record things for later viewing. Thats not what they're about.

They want your 'live tv experience' to be good (as stated above). So Pausing, back a bit to rewatch something.... that seems to be where they're concerned... not recording a PPV to watch again over and over so you don't have to pay for it again! lol.


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## SpacemanSpiff (Jan 31, 2004)

Good Post tbeckner. You're right, they're spinning as fast as they can. Unfortunately while they may have some moderate short term success with such spin, once people get the feel for a DVR, even one that's for enhancing "live" TV, do you think they can be happy with one that doesn't enhance TV?


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## Steve1212 (Dec 1, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Should I chime in?
> 
> Nah... I stay out of this one.
> 
> As for any other "TiVo" powered products... not going to happen.


LOL, seems like you are one of few who really likes the non-tivo R15. I don't know why, but everyone is entitled to an opinoin.


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## edrock200 (Feb 7, 2002)

Make that two people that like it. Don't get me wrong, I still favor my DTivo a lot more, but the r15 is a solid box and just about the best *first entry* attempt I've seen from any tv provider (I know the design was taken from Skybox but its still DirecTV's first in house entry.) From all the DVR's I've played with I'd say it's the second best one I've used.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Steve1212 said:


> LOL, seems like you are one of few who really likes the non-tivo R15. I don't know why, but everyone is entitled to an opinoin.


Head over to dbstalk.com There are a decent number of people that like it...

And remember... not everone goes to forum boards....

The R15 isn't the greatest thing since slight bread... and it does have some issues... but the unit is no where near as "horrible" as a lot of posts are making it seem.

Go back over the years, and you will find a lot of posts dictating how "horrible" the TiVo is


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## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

I just bought an R15 to replace my old series 1 stock GXCEBOT. So, I have a 200-hour R10 and the R15 will be the backup. I was just missing too many recordings.

That said, it's not really intuitive. I'm having some trauma today trying to get season passes set up.

But I figure that if they want to give me one, who am I to not give it a shake?


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## BLykeMike (Jan 3, 2006)

The R-15 really is the worst DVR ever! I have had it for five days and I can't take anymore. It already missed recording two of my season passes and it can't find Mythbusters to make a season pass and it starts in a week! I can't have that. The UI is extremely unfriendly and it takes 3 button presses just to get to where the directv button would take you. No wish lists, horrible fast forwarding, no jumping to fifteen minute marks, and no remote hack! Luckily I gave my old tivo to a friend of mine, and I will be getting it back. The R-15 has made me an indian giver, another reason to hate it.


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## Rkkeller (May 13, 2004)

Lori, to record a SL (aka SP in TiVo) go to the program you want to record in the guide and "press the record button TWICE". Its a shortcut. 

I said just about what you did. For FREE, I will give it a shot.


Rich


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## Stoystown (Jun 13, 2002)

I got the R-15 for my in-laws because Circuit City didn't have any R-10s left. I set it up and it sucked soooooo bad, that I ordered an R-10 from Weaknees, waited a week for it to arrive, and took the R-15 back to Circuit City.

It is completely, bloodily, filthily, disgustingly, absolutely, awful. Especially if you have worked with the Tivo before. 

Icky yucky poo poo.

(By the way - some people find the term "indian giver" offensive).


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

others find poo poo offensive, your point?


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## Nfuego (Sep 27, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> What they want to do is improve the live TV experience for DVR users.


I don't understand this concept. If I want a DVR, why do I want to watch TV live?

Heck, that is most people's criticism of TiVo's marketing campaigns...they keep stressing "pausing and rewinding LIVE TV"! Who cares what is ON TV right NOW? I care what I can watch right now...not what's on right now.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

I think what they are getting at, is that TiVo is pretty much "focused" on the DVR pre-recorded aspect of things.... Look at most of it's most advanced features... focused on what is already recorded.

What they are trying to do with the R-15 is to create a unit that is good blend between the two, so in areas where you WANT LIVE TV (such as sporting events), you can get more out of it (such as the Interactive Sunday Ticket).

I don't think they are trying to push the DVR piece away, just trying to get a box that in a way can be considered a full replacement unit for all the non-dvr boxes out there.

Note: I am very much aware of the Dual Buffer in the TiVo "helps" a lot while watching Live TV...

Again, for any "new user" out there... Do make sure you head over to www.dbstalk.com for more discussion on the R15 (as in general it's discussion in depth is now allowed on this particular forum)


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## SeattleCarl (Nov 11, 2005)

Well folks, I have two of the new R15's and I do not find them horrific. I rather like them in fact. Of course I've never used a TiVo product before, so am coming at them new instead of from an established perspective.
-
My very first TiVo based unit (an R10 DirecTivo) is supposed to show up sometime today via Fedex. So I will be evaluating that based on starting with non-TiVo instead of the other way around. I'll try to be objective, and I'll let you know how I feel after I've had a chance to play with it.
-
For the hard core TiVo advocate, you will probably never like a non-TiVo product. For the general public, the R15 has it's good side also.
-
Carl


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

Carl,

Your perspective starting without prior TiVo experience will be very interesting.

I will watch for your review, especially since I can read it here "timeshifted" (at my convenience) rather than having to read it live in a chat room.

I think your initial reaction to the R15 would be similar to that of any "non-prior-TiVo" user.


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## rick31621 (Jun 20, 2004)

A warning to all new DVR purchasers.
If you have the opportunity to purchase the R10 before they are all gone, do it!
The R15 sits in my closet while 4 other DVRs, including 2 R10s are operating. I have experienced the R10 and R15 operating at the same time and the R15 sucks compared to the Tivo units. If you are fortunate to find a R10 at CC or BB grab it.


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## terrylmc (Jun 25, 2003)

I have both the R10 and R15.. I don't have any problems with the R15.. A few of the things I do like about it is it kind of reminds me of my old UTV... The guide is faster, the ability to record and set a series record in the guide by hitting the record once to record once, twice for series record or a third time to cancel it. Another feature is something that I had always wished TIVO would have done.. When browsing the guide, or any menu function, what you are watching is basically in a PIP so you can still see and hear what's going on.

I still like my R10 also (along with my TIVO HD-DVR), but I also like the R15. It suits my needs. My major gripe is the lack (so far) of the 30 second skip.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

And another warning to new DVR purchasers...

Check out the other forum... www.dbstalk.com to get the "other" side of the story, before you make *your* decision.


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## SeattleCarl (Nov 11, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> And another warning to new DVR purchasers...
> 
> Check out the other forum... www.dbstalk.com to get the "other" side of the story, before you make *your* decision.


I have now received my R10, and have been using it for a couple of hours. Overall, I like it, but I think I like the R15 a little more. Both are nice.
-
I posted a much longer comparison of the two, from my perspective, on the dbstalk forums that are linked in the previous post.
-
Carl


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

rick31621 said:


> A warning to all new DVR purchasers.
> If you have the opportunity to purchase the R10 before they are all gone, do it!
> The R15 sits in my closet while 4 other DVRs, including 2 R10s are operating. I have experienced the R10 and R15 operating at the same time and the R15 sucks compared to the Tivo units. If you are fortunate to find a R10 at CC or BB grab it.


It's unlikely the R15 will ever pick up the needed software updates while it sits in your closet.


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## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

Rkkeller said:


> Lori, to record a SL (aka SP in TiVo) go to the program you want to record in the guide and "press the record button TWICE". Its a shortcut.
> 
> I said just about what you did. For FREE, I will give it a shot.
> 
> Rich


Thanks. I had been doing that, but only one episode was being added to the ToDo list. I guess it just takes time for the list to completely populate.

I don't love it, it won't change my life...but it has some cool features. I think that it's a good companion for my R-10.


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## Nfuego (Sep 27, 2004)

SeattleCarl said:


> I have now received my R10, and have been using it for a couple of hours. Overall, I like it, but I think I like the R15 a little more. Both are nice.
> -
> I posted a much longer comparison of the two, from my perspective, on the dbstalk forums that are linked in the previous post.
> -
> Carl


I'd like to read your review, if you could link to it.


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## Nfuego (Sep 27, 2004)

To the people that have the R10 and the R15, is there a seperate monthly DRV Fee for having both models?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Nfuego said:


> To the people that have the R10 and the R15, is there a seperate monthly DRV Fee for having both models?


Nope... one DVR fee (be it $4.99 or $5.99)


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## netposer (Jul 23, 2004)

I'm thinking of switching from Dish back to DirecTV and depending on who you talk with at DirecTV I'm not sure if their current DVR is the TiVo version or not.

Is this the R15? 
on DirecTV's home page









Or is this?
On another page from their site.









If "models may vary" how will you know which DVR you'll get?

I doubt the R15 can be anyworse than the Dish DVR 635.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

The top picture with the Tivo logo and peanut shaped remote is the old DVR (R10).
The bottom picture without the Tivo logo is the new one (R15).


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## rick31621 (Jun 20, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> It's unlikely the R15 will ever pick up the needed software updates while it sits in your closet.


You let me know when it gets the dual buffers and the 30 sec skip!


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## SpacemanSpiff (Jan 31, 2004)

netposer said:


> If "models may vary" how will you know which DVR you'll get?


You don't until the installer shows up at your house. From what people are saying though, almost all installers now have the R15.

The only way to guarantee the model you want is to pick it up either online or at a B&M.


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## GTO40 (Jul 25, 2005)

" Live TV "? When does a DVR user watch " live TV " ?


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## SpacemanSpiff (Jan 31, 2004)

Breaking News?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

GTO40 said:


> " Live TV "? When does a DVR user watch " live TV " ?


Sporting Events for one... 
Some shows that "must see" because during the morning news and papers all talk about what was on the night before.
Awards shows..

Sure.. I usually end up watching most of those DVRed at least to eliminate commercials, but eventually at one point I catch up with live time.

"In General" LiveTV is fading away, but it will always be there... and there a lot of people who do watch LiveTV... Even thoses with DVRs...

Can't really watch the Shopping networks delayed... 
And even the few seconds that "Live TV" is delayed (about 6 when compared to cable), it is just enough that you can't use the interactive components of some shows (like those on the Game Show Network)


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## Stoystown (Jun 13, 2002)

My point is that some people find the term "indian giver" offensive.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Trust me - just go with a tried and true R10. It's a far better DVR than an R15.


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## Rkkeller (May 13, 2004)

I have the Philips 704, R-10 and new R-15 and after the last 109a update the R-15 is much much better. I would and have recommended it to many of my friends. It IS the future of DirecTV if people choose to accept it or not. After not even using the R-15 days I made it my main unit and moved the R-10 to a bedroom.

I know the R-15 lacks some of the R-10 features "right now" but just bring able to use the guide like all normal receivers should operate and no more "please wait it might take a few minutes" were the deal breaker for me. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy my DirecTiVos, its just I hate sitting there in silence while doing things or waiting for it to do things that are instant on the R-15.


Rich


Rich


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Can't really watch the Shopping networks delayed...
> And even the few seconds that "Live TV" is delayed (about 6 when compared to cable), it is just enough that you can't use the interactive components of some shows (like those on the Game Show Network)


Tell me this isn't TRUE! You watch the shopping networks? I have the shopping/SPAM networks pulled from my recieved channels since the day that DirecTV added them, same goes for the GAME SHOW and FOX REALITY channels.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

No... I don't do the shopping channels (I remove them)... but the fact there are nearly 10 of them... Someone one must be watching them...

The Game Show network isn't that bad... that have some decent "dumb" time shows, and I have always liked the replays of the "classics". 

Fox Reality, just got the boot on one of my systems, as my Wishlist for American Idol, recorded about 15 episodes in two days....


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Rkkeller said:


> I have the Philips 704, R-10 and new R-15 and after the last 109a update the R-15 is much much better. I would and have recommended it to many of my friends. It IS the future of DirecTV if people choose to accept it or not. After not even using the R-15 days I made it my main unit and moved the R-10 to a bedroom.
> 
> I know the R-15 lacks some of the R-10 features "right now" but just bring able to use the guide like all normal receivers should operate and no more "please wait it might take a few minutes" were the deal breaker for me. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy my DirecTiVos, its just I hate sitting there in silence while doing things or waiting for it to do things that are instant on the R-15.
> 
> Rich


I wonder why people like the TV Guide like Grid? I have always found it to be almost useless and limiting. After using the TV Guide type grid since 1994 with the standard receivers, I found the TiVo specific grid refreshing and far more capable, even with the pre-6.2 slowness.

So, can someone explain why they find the limited TV Guide grid useful, other than the fact that it is like the grid in newspapers?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

List Grid -> Easier to find programs to record in the future, or pick shows to watch in the future.

Live Grid -> Easier to scroll through everything that is on "right now" or in the next few "blocks of time".

There are times when I just simply don't want to watch anything that I have recorded so far (or I have to wait for the wife to be around to watch them)... So I do have to "cough" watch Live-TV from time to time.

Also helps when I want to put some "noise" up for my Son, as most of his DVRed shows are only 30 minutes, and since no DVR let's you do batch playback... I use the Grid guide to figure out which of the Kid channels has a good "block of time" scheduled.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> List Grid -> Easier to find programs to record in the future, or pick shows to watch in the future.
> 
> Live Grid -> Easier to scroll through everything that is on "right now" or in the next few "blocks of time".


Actually, I find using the List Grid (TiVo Specific Grid) even easier to use to find what is "ON RIGHT NOW", than the VERY OLD "TV GUIDE GRID" format.

It always amazes me that programmers return to that archaic grid (around since the early 1960s) when they setup a new programmable grid (Patented by TV Guide). I find that it limits the amount of the viewable timeframe in almost all cases to the current hour and a half grid and the same amount of limited horizontal channels.

With the TiVo List Grid, I can see eight channels of current shows (30 minutes to multi-hours) with eight future shows per each channel, which could show from a minimum of 3 hours to 16 hours or more per channel in advance and after the 6.2 update, viewing the other eight channels for the 3 to 16+ hours in advance is very quick and very easy to do.

So using the ancient TV Guide grid from the 1960s is just so limiting, slow, and clumsy for me. Again I wish programmers would expand their usage of modern GUI tools and use a little imagination to break out of the archaic TV Guide grid which is really getting a little long in the tooth.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

^ ^ ^ ^
Amen! Hallalujah! Praise God! ;P


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

They still have live TV?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

One reason not to get the R10 is that if you want a second one for your house in 6 months you will not be able to find one at Best Buy. Nor will you be able to get one installed by a DirecTV installer. 

You may be able to pay top $ for a used R10, while another R15 would have been free. This assumes DirecTV will even let you activate an R10 in 6 months.

You might end up with one of each and you will hate life. Far better to have the same DVR on all TV's.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Hmmm... Me's got TWO R10s.... 

Maybe I can get $850 each for them in a few months.... HMMM...

R10's are the holy grail of DVRs.....


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

tbeckner said:


> Actually, I find using the List Grid (TiVo Specific Grid) even easier to use to find what is "ON RIGHT NOW", than the VERY OLD "TV GUIDE GRID" format.


Right now, yes. But Earl said Right now or in the next few blocks of time.

At 8:24 I don't give a rats ass what's on now, I want to know what is on at 8:30 and I don't want to have to move my cursor to every single channel to see that.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer the list as most of my viewing is time shifted, but for the live TV experience, the List is extremely limited in the information shown on one screen without moving to every channel.


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## bcronin (Dec 29, 2001)

tomo_kun said:


> The R15 is not that bad people. It records all of my progams nicely, i actually like the non auto correcting fastforward/rewind, and i deffinaitly prefer the guide over the TiVo guide (I prefer to have the small box instead of having the guide infront).


Dual Buffers. Did I mention it doesn't have Dual Buffers? I really (REALLY) want dual buffers. I'd go back to cable before I'd get a DVR without dual buffers. For real.


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## bcronin (Dec 29, 2001)

jmoak said:


> It depends on how you want to watch tv.
> 
> Directv's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual says, "(TiVo) is a great interface for watching what's been recorded, (But it's) not so great for live TV" and as Chase Carey said many times in their last conference call, they're all about "improving the live tv viewing experience".


He's wrong. Having dual tuners both with their own buffer is the BEST way to watch live TV when you want to watch two things at once (in as close to real time as you can get).


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## SeattleCarl (Nov 11, 2005)

HiDefGator said:


> You might end up with one of each and you will hate life. Far better to have the same DVR on all TV's.


Oh come on folks. Hate life over something as trivial as a dvr? I have both. Two R15's and an R10. I like both. I LOVE LIFE, and that has nothing to do with dvr's or television.

Carl


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

I must admit I'm amazed that so many people consider dual buffers so important. I might have actually made use of this feature once in the last 4 years. And frankly it would have been months before I noticed it was not on the new box. I thought the whole point of Tivo was to not watch live TV anymore? That's what all the kool aid drinkers told me 3 years ago when I complained about how slow the menus were. I would trade Tivo's dual 30 minute buffers for one 60 minute buffer in a heartbeat. I frequently find myself watching some show live when one of the kids yells. 30 minutes is often not long enough to get back.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

SeattleCarl said:


> Oh come on folks. Hate life over something as trivial as a dvr? I have both. Two R15's and an R10. I like both. I LOVE LIFE, and that has nothing to do with dvr's or television.
> 
> Carl


Try teaching your wife and children two different remotes and two different interfaces. You're a tech geek or you wouldn't be posting here, not everyone is.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

And don't forget two sets of grandparents.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> I must admit I'm amazed that so many people consider dual buffers so important. I might have actually made use of this feature once in the last 4 years.


To be honest I forget how much I use two buffers. In an ideal world I would always have something in now playing to watch and would never watch live TV. In the realworld I find I do from time to time watch live TV. Adverts come on and I usually hit pause, swicth to the other tuner and watch something else (or channel surf) for a while and then come back to my paused program skip through the ads and then carry on watching live. In truth I am using both buffers but I hadn't really thought about how even my live TV watching has been modified by TiVo.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Two Buffers are nice... yes... 

I frequently used them over the last two nights while the CFB games where on.

I would pause, go over to the other live tuner for about 15 minutes or so... then go back to the game...

But, I am actually used to not having it on the R15... hasn't made that much of a difference.
To a degree... Once they correct the problem of the live buffer clearing out when you go to a recorded or recording program, it will basically act the same way (with the benefit of your "key" one being recorded incase you forget to go back in the 90 minutes)


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## SeattleCarl (Nov 11, 2005)

HiDefGator said:


> Try teaching your wife and children two different remotes and two different interfaces. You're a tech geek or you wouldn't be posting here, not everyone is.


Well, that is exactly why I prefer the R15. It has the same remote and interface as the D11 receiver, which my wife absolutely loves. With the exception of the R10 I have in my own little personal space that my wife never uses, all the rest is standardized with D11s and R15s.

Carl


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## bcronin (Dec 29, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> I must admit I'm amazed that so many people consider dual buffers so important. I might have actually made use of this feature once in the last 4 years. And frankly it would have been months before I noticed it was not on the new box. I thought the whole point of Tivo was to not watch live TV anymore? That's what all the kool aid drinkers told me 3 years ago when I complained about how slow the menus were. I would trade Tivo's dual 30 minute buffers for one 60 minute buffer in a heartbeat. I frequently find myself watching some show live when one of the kids yells. 30 minutes is often not long enough to get back.


Yes well we use it constantly every day on both our receivers. The lack of that function is literally a show stopper for us. New products should be at least as good as the old ones being replaced. In the end if DirecTv doesn't see it the same way and expects we'll just roll over and take it, they're dead wrong, they'll have lost a 10+ year loyal customer. Whether or not there are enough dual-buffer-crazies like us to make a difference is debatable, but I'd guess probably not. So, we'll keep our SD TiVo-based DVR's (even though we have this real nice 45" HD Sharp Aquos that we're itching to feed an HD signal to) until someone comes along that does offer the functionality (or else our pining for HD gets so bad that we're willing to give up the convenience, but at this point that doesn't seem likely anytime soon).


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Since it is not on "this page" of the thread... I would like to point out that, additional discussion about the R15 can be found at www.dbstalk.com (since the mods of this forum requested R15 discussion be taken else where)


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Way to make a stand Bob. You show them and go back to cable and a cable DVR without the feature that you're whining about. Enjoy it. It's your decision to make.

To read what you write you are acting like DTV is somehow violating you for not seeing the same value in a feature that you see. As shown just above, not every customer values this as much as you do.

Honestly, you aren't going back to cable. Even when your TiVos die, you aren't going back to cable and you know it. You're just puffing now like a big tough guy. When the day to make that decision finally comes, you will realize that no DVR is any better than the content that can be recorded on it.


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## rick31621 (Jun 20, 2004)

bcronin said:


> Dual Buffers. Did I mention it doesn't have Dual Buffers? I really (REALLY) want dual buffers. I'd go back to cable before I'd get a DVR without dual buffers. For real.


I agree. Dual buffers is a deal breaker.
That's why my 2 day old R15 is not in use.
I have 2 R10s and 2 S4040s connected and a spare R10 in reserve.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> Honestly, you aren't going back to cable. Even when your TiVos die, you aren't going back to cable and you know it. You're just puffing now like a big tough guy. When the day to make that decision finally comes, you will realize that no DVR is any better than the content that can be recorded on it.


Do you not think the Cablecard HD TiVo is not comming? Do you not think cable compnaies currently has a better HD offerings than DirecTV's four of five non-local channels? It sounds to me it would be exactly what Bob is looking for, and he clearly is prepare to wait a short while for it.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

According to my Cable-Co... (Comcast in Chicago)
These are their HD offerings:

173 ESPN HD 
174 iN DEMAND HD 1 
175 iN DEMAND HD 2 

185 Showtime HD 
186 HBO HD 

187 WLS-DT (ABC) 
188 WMAQ-DT (NBC) 
189 WBBM-DT (CBS) 
190 WFLD-DT (FOX) 
191 WTTW-DT (PBS) 
192 WGN-DT 

195 Cinemax HD 
196 Starz HD 

205 Discovery HD Theater 
(They are missing one.. ComcastSportsNet HD)

Out of that list, my current DirecTV and OTA Setup don't get:
In Demmand (qty 2), Cinemax or Starz, ComcastSportsNet HD

But I do get: ESPN2HD, HDNet, HDMovies, UniversalHD
Plus there are at least 6 more OTA Digital channels I get with all their multi-casting offerings (sure not HD, but more channels)

So say HDNet washes out InDemand and Maybe Cinemax
Leaves me with just the StarzHD 

Sure I would like ComcastSportsNet in HD, but that would be just for the home games for the WhiteSox... And I tend to double my attendance this year at the actually park.

Your list may be different based on your area and Cable-Co... 
But at least here (in the Burbs of DMA #3 Chicago) not that much of a difference.

IMHO... Not worth the nearly extra $15 a month I would have to drop to comcast, plus the increased agravation level with dealing with Comcast here.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Out of that list, my current DirecTV and OTA Setup don't get:
> In Demmand (qty 2), Cinemax or Starz, ComcastSportsNet HD.


OTA !! - That's my whole point. DirecTV don't give you the main channels you need - they need OTA.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

nhaigh said:


> OTA !! - That's my whole point. DirecTV don't give you the main channels you need - they need OTA.


Okay... Okay... that makes sense... 
But even my Cable-Co doesn't have EVERYTHING I can get via OTA

And given current technology limitations, how can expect a SAT company to provide me the exact locals. Wait... I do get the national feeds.
And they are getting to the MPEG-4 LIL

There are two models... The way CableCo's have the infrasturcture in place and design (and pricing models) to be very location specific... DirecTV which is a NATIONAL distributor doesn't have that luxury... They have to account for the entire nation, not just Tinley Park, IL

(Note: OTA Today vs OTA in the 80's, two different beasts... The digital broadcasts are either you get it or you don't... And if you do.. You often get a better quality HD picture then you get from either DTV feeds or Cable-Co feeds. And even then I have a antenna in my attic 35 miles from the towers... )


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## john-duncan-yoyo (Oct 13, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Since it is not on "this page" of the thread... I would like to point out that, additional discussion about the R15 can be found at www.dbstalk.com (since the mods of this forum requested R15 discussion be taken else where)


Maybe you ought to just make that your Sig.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Hmmm... Okay... I guess since it is a sister site.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

nhaigh said:


> Do you not think the Cablecard HD TiVo is not comming? Do you not think cable compnaies currently has a better HD offerings than DirecTV's four of five non-local channels? It sounds to me it would be exactly what Bob is looking for, and he clearly is prepare to wait a short while for it.


I believe it's promised and likely coming. It's not here yet and not bug free yet either. If we're going to open the discussion up to vaporware then we need to discuss all the possible upgrades DTV might make between now and then as well as additional HD channels that will be up by then.

I'm in favor of the CC TiVo, but for now TiVo simply has people betting on futures.

Also, tell me, specifically, what HD channels *your* cableco is currently offering.

My point is that for 10 years Bob has chosen DTV over cable presumably for the content. Now I'm supposed to believe that he is going to bolt because he wouldn't have live dual buffers when his cableco can't offer them now either.

How about a friendly wager of a TiVo blanket on whether the CC Tivo is released before DTV has made live dual buffers possible on one of their DVR's? Should be a slam dunk for you as the CC TiVo has been promised for a lot longer already.


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## itsmeitsmeitsme (Nov 13, 2003)

i have been with DTV since the beginning. I have a Directivo and just today ordered 2 of the new Dvr's. I'll let you know what I think of the new ones.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> Also, tell me, specifically, what HD channels *your* cableco is currently offering.


My current Cable HD lineup is :

200 2Comcast Sportsnet HD 
202 ESPN HD 
205 Discovery HD Theater 
206 INHD 
207 INHD2 
215 & 300 HBO HDTV 
219 & 319 Cinemax HDTV 
223 & 339 Showtime HDTV 
227 & 369 STARZ HDTV 
231 WPVI-DT (ABC-HD) 
232 WCAU-DT (NBC-HD) 
233 KYW-DT (CBS-HD) 
234 WTXF-DT (FOX-HD) 
235 WPHL-DT (WB-HD) 
236 WPSG-DT (UPN-HD) 
240 WHYY-DT (PBS-HD)

But I have no interest in anything below 215.



Billy66 said:


> How about a friendly wager of a TiVo blanket on whether the CC Tivo is released before DTV has made live dual buffers possible on one of their DVR's? Should be a slam dunk for you as the CC TiVo has been promised for a lot longer already.


TiVo Sales told me two days ago that thay are only alowed to say it will be released Q1 this year, i.e. no specific date. Others here have posted that they have been told February. I'm hoping its not going to be too long a wait.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

So it looks like Cinemax and Starz are the only ones that I can't get with DTV. But I can get over 100 NFL games in HD on DTV that cable cannot provide.

Keep in mind that Bob is in Hyde Park and thus can get his locals in HD from the Sat and not OTA.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Note: HydePark is a Suburb of Chicago...

He "could" get via OTA if he chose to do so (in addition to the feeds that DirecTV offers)


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

He's in Hyde Park NY Earl.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> He's in Hyde Park NY Earl.


OOPS... my bad... I should have looked at the call letters on those locals...

There should be a rule that a city name can only be used in one state.
(I do this all the time with Albany... Albany, GA that is)


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## bcronin (Dec 29, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> I believe it's promised and likely coming. It's not here yet and not bug free yet either. If we're going to open the discussion up to vaporware then we need to discuss all the possible upgrades DTV might make between now and then as well as additional HD channels that will be up by then.
> 
> I'm in favor of the CC TiVo, but for now TiVo simply has people betting on futures.
> 
> ...


The content situation 10 years ago was much worse than today. In fact, thats why I went to DirecTv in the first place. Now, cable is quite close (although not SO close as to make it an easy decision). But (damnit) I wish I didn't have to. What is so bloody hard about having two buffers? Make the total space 90 minutes worth and let me decide how to split it between the tuners. Make the default that it all goes to one tuner. Hey, Presto, everyone's happy.


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## bcronin (Dec 29, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> He's in Hyde Park NY Earl.


Yeah, heck, we don't get *any* SD OTA channels here (at least not without some mondo-huge analog antenna-from-hell). We don't even have a damn cell tower anywhere nearby. Alas, my job holds me captive here, so moving is not in the cards.


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## bcronin (Dec 29, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> Way to make a stand Bob. You show them and go back to cable and a cable DVR without the feature that you're whining about. Enjoy it. It's your decision to make.
> 
> To read what you write you are acting like DTV is somehow violating you for not seeing the same value in a feature that you see. As shown just above, not every customer values this as much as you do.
> 
> Honestly, you aren't going back to cable. Even when your TiVos die, you aren't going back to cable and you know it. You're just puffing now like a big tough guy. When the day to make that decision finally comes, you will realize that no DVR is any better than the content that can be recorded on it.


No I would only go back to cable if they offered a dual tuner TiVo powered HD DVR (which it was my understanding what CableVision and TiVo were working on).

And if they follow through with that, I would indeed be very likely go back, despite your sarcastic assertions to the contrary ;-)


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

I hear ya Bob. Might be the same timetable for DTV to enable dual buffer support. We'll just have to see.

I've been hard on TiVo lately, but I would surely take a look at that box too if it ever comes out, just as I will enjoy fiddling with the DTV offerings.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

bcronin said:


> No I would only go back to cable if they offered a dual tuner TiVo powered HD DVR (which it was my understanding what CableVision and TiVo were working on).
> 
> And if they follow through with that, I would indeed be very likely go back, despite your sarcastic assertions to the contrary ;-)


See Series 3 TiVo at CES 2006. Six tuners, but only two active at one time, Ethernet Connector on rear, and eSATA support for expanded recording support. The last two items are what I have been wishing for from all of the other lame DVRs.


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

Captain Obvious: "TiVo (software) has a really *huge* head start!"


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

skinnyjm said:


> Captain Obvious: "TiVo (software) has a really *huge* head start!"


If is this a reference to the eSATA and Ethernet on the Series 3, I would not say that it is because TiVo has a huge head start. The Moxi and ReplayTV had an Ethernet Connector many years before the Series 2 DirecTiVo was released. And it appears based upon pictures; the "HR20" has an unlabeled Ethernet connector on the back right above a single USB connector.

What all of the DVRs where missing is the hardware enabled eSATA, which is really exciting. But there really is no reason why the new DVRs from DirecTV cannot have eSATA, but then again there is a possibility that the mystery connector that is above and almost at the top and slightly to the right of the HDMI connector and above the Ethernet and USB connector on the back of the "HR20" is a eSATA connector, but since none of the connectors are labeled on the back of the current "HR20", there is no way of telling if that is so.

But it only makes logical sense that DirecTV would add an eSATA connector to the back of the HR20, since there will not likely be any way to expand its storage capacity.

A reference to TiVo having an obvious HEADSTART is totally without merit when it comes to obvious hardware enabled features like an internal Ethernet and eSATA connector. Now if we where talking about software advances then that could be an obvious assumption, but in this case it is an apples and orange comparison.


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

No, just a reference that TiVo software is way ahead of the current R15 software.
That's all. 
TiVo works better?, Hell I don't know, your post was full of tech stuff,
I like tech stuff but what does it mean to the "current" bottom line? 

Edit: I'm all for any advancement, TiVo or other...


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

skinnyjm said:


> No, just a reference that TiVo software is way ahead of the current R15 software.
> That's all.
> TiVo works better?, Hell I don't know, your post was full of tech stuff,
> I like tech stuff but what does it mean to the "current" bottom line?
> ...


There is no doubt that TiVo has a multi-year jump on the NDS software used on the DirecTV DVR "R15", and I am sorry if I jumped ahead too hard.

What gets my goat, is that DirecTV had a choice to advance their DVR beyond the basic interface and choose not to advance the software much if not at all and they choose not to advance the hardware at all on the "R15", except to add a bigger hard drive. Shame on them!


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## bcronin (Dec 29, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> See Series 3 TiVo at CES 2006. Six tuners, but only two active at one time, Ethernet Connector on rear, and eSATA support for expanded recording support. The last two items are what I have been wishing for from all of the other lame DVRs.


If this is what CableVision has in mind, I suspect that my days as a DirecTv customer may be drawing to a close. I vastly prefer the TiVo software/feature-set and will simply not downgrade to an NDS DVR just to get HD.


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## rick31621 (Jun 20, 2004)

I have no intentions leaving D* unless they stop supporting the Tivo DVR alltogether and the R15 has not been dramatically improved. At a minimum the upgrade must include dual buffers and the 30 sec skip. Otherwise, it's just a basic DVR.


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## jmarks2001 (Dec 14, 2003)

Can we presume that the interface and functionality of the HR20 going to be the same as the R15. Not having dual-buffers would kinda suck. Aside from 30-sec skip, what other "notable omissions" has D* made their DVR as compared to the Tivo branded models?

I'm trying to decide if I should pick up an HR10-250 now, or wait for the alleged deals that DTV is going to offer when they release the HR20. What would you do?


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## Dkerr24 (Oct 29, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> OOPS... my bad... I should have looked at the call letters on those locals...
> 
> There should be a rule that a city name can only be used in one state.
> (I do this all the time with Albany... Albany, GA that is)


Or "Springfield".... how many towns named that? I was surprised to find out that a town near me called Mustang, OK is the only town in North America named "Mustang". You'd think an image of prancing ponies and muscle cars would be a popular name for a town? Guess not.


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## redthumb (May 30, 2003)

If I may step in here, I've been reading up on this thread and would like to add a few coments:

About one unit being better for Live TV, that's where their ad $$ are coming from. The R-15 doesn't have the 30-sec skip because they're in the process of boiling us frogs. That's the first thing to go, later they'll kill the ability to fast forward during commercials in recorded programs, and then the ability to pause live TV when they're blessing us with commercials. I read here a while back that DTV is moving in the direction of limiting those features and it appears that they are just easing into it. Boiling frogs just like the energy companies. They can't cut these features all at once or they'd have a consumer revolt but they're answering to their advertisers who throw around much bigger $$.

They like to make us think we have a say in this but really we don't.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Hmm... where to start... I have no idea anymore, as it just a bash fest.

RedThumb.... All those things you list... Do you not think they are going to be in the TiVo too? If that is what the Content Provider market dictates?

In what rational world do you think something like those options will get enabled by DirecTV if their chief competitors don't.... Unless they are mandated by law... I highly (on the higest level possible) doubt you will see DirecTV purposesly enable "features" like that. As it would be "commercial" suicide.

And what you read on "forum" boards, blogs, and even media articles...... EVERYONE has a slant to put on it. EVERYONE... including myself. Sure a great majority of people try to keep things as objective as possible, and equally point out good and bad... ect (that is where I hopefully am)... But others start to swing out to the extremes.

The "Live TV" experience... ultimately... other sporting events and some shows (awards and news)... ZERO is live... Everything is taped, edited, and produced in a way. So ultimately.. the concept of LIVE TV like it was in the 60's is no more.

No watching something that is being broadcasted right now and then... Sure.. There are many valid reasons to do that... But those reasons are dwindling as the DVR technology improves.

Do you know *WHY* 30-second skip is a *backdoor* feature of the Tivo? Do some homework on ReplayTV (one of the first DVRs)... They where attacked at the very begining, and it SERIOUSLY hurt them because the ADVERTISED that their unit can SKIP commercials.

Advertising industry went crazy. TiVo "pulled" the feature from their unit, only to later introduce it as a backdoor code (it wasn't always there). They don't advertise it is there. Also if you read into a lot of the ads... you will find that they say you can REWIND programs, but they rarely say you can FF through them.

If it can be recorded... Then you will always need FF for what ever reason.. Why? As you will never be able to catch up to "Live" broadcast time if you couldn't.

And yes... Sure Revenue comes from the advertisers... but without subscribers... Advertisers won't give them the revenue... It is a delicate balance between the two.

Personally... at this point in the game... Given a balance scale.. The R15 and the TiVo products balance out with the LIVE TV experience. One gives you TWO live buffers to easily toggle through. The other gives you a 90 minute buffer. One gives you "PIP" while in the guides, the other doesn't. Each one has there pro's and con's... IMHO... Simply the fact that the TiVo software has been through 5+ years of bumps and bruises (and there has been MANY), it has the edge.

Based on what I have just seen with CES announcements and others... The TiVo product and the company has got to shift it into the next gear... Or DirecTV's products, Cable-Co's private Products, and Microsoft Media Center are going to leave it as a big chapter in the history of DVRs..


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

jmarks2001 said:


> Can we presume that the interface and functionality of the HR20 going to be the same as the R15. Not having dual-buffers would kinda suck. Aside from 30-sec skip, what other "notable omissions" has D* made their DVR as compared to the Tivo branded models?


Dual Live Buffers
Thumbs Up/Down and Suggestion logic (that is also a TiVo copywrited deal)
Full listing of matches to ALL Wishlist entries

Other than that... Everthing else that is on a TiVo I can do on an R15 to a various degrees (both better and some worse).

Few things that the R15 can do that the TiVos can't.

Bulk Deletions from the "Now Playing/MyVod" screens
Video window while in the "menus"
Caller-ID

So as of right now... the two units ultimately are functionally similar. 
With the exception that the R15 is software is going through it's early growing pains, where the TiVo software has already gone through that.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Do you know *WHY* 30-second skip is a *backdoor* feature of the Tivo? Do some homework on ReplayTV (one of the first DVRs)... They where attacked at the very begining, and it SERIOUSLY hurt them because the ADVERTISED that their unit can SKIP commercials.
> 
> Advertising industry went crazy. TiVo "pulled" the feature from their unit, only to later introduce it as a backdoor code (it wasn't always there). They don't advertise it is there. Also if you read into a lot of the ads... you will find that they say you can REWIND programs, but they rarely say you can FF through them.


Earl,

You forgot to let people know that ReplayTV went further than just offering a 30 second skip. They actually allowed the unit to analyze the blackout/blank periods between programs and commercials and automatically skip commercials, although it didn't work perfect all of the time, it was a step towards eliminating commercials automatically.

And TiVo is no longer alone when it comes to the 30 second skip, in fact almost all DVR/PVR software on SA DVR equipment and PC's offer 30 second skip, in fact the DirecTV DVR "R15" is in the MINORITY today.

Skip the DVR ads, read the manuals. Even the new Microsoft LG DVR has 30 second skip and they promote FF also. Although nobody really promotes skipping commercials today, it can be done on almost all DVR software on 98% of the DVRs with 30 second skip and the last 2% or so, like the DirecTV DVR "R15" with FF.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> One gives you "PIP" while in the guides, the other doesn't.


The DirecTV DVR gives you a small PIP window like most of the Receivers, but the TiVos give you GOFP (Guide Over Full Picture), which really isn't all that bad. IN fact, I see one as giving all that much of an advantage over the other, but I guess it is just a matter of taste, kind of like a aquiring a taste for drinking wine.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Dual Live Buffers
> Thumbs Up/Down and Suggestion logic (that is also a TiVo copywrited deal)
> Full listing of matches to ALL Wishlist entries
> 
> ...


I am not picking on you tonight, but all of my DirecTiVos with hacks of course do Caller-ID and with TiVoWebPlus they allow Bulk Deletions. IN addition, they all allow MRV (Multi-Room Viewing), which I use daily and would have have a hard time not using, which is something at this point the "R15" cannot do. AGREED THIS IS NOT THE NORM, but it is something that I do.

I do believe I would like a PIP like window while being in all of the menus, but I guess I will have to wait for the Series 3 TiVos.


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## zuiko (May 16, 2002)

The absolute worst thing about the Tivo units is how unbelievably slow they are. Especially ordering the season passes. Somebody screwed up big time with the way it stores that data. With the R10 it was faster but still not acceptible IMO. Now I am back to my S1 and it takes about 15 minutes (literally) to change the priority on a season pass. 15 minutes that the Tivo is effectively locked up and can't do anything... not even watch live TV. Everything else is slow too (press a button and wait 10 seconds before it actually does something), but I can live with it. 

If the R15 was fast that would make up for a lot of shortcomings. The not requiring a call is a huge bonus as well. With a Tivo based unit you have a serious problem if you dont have a landline. More and more people do not have landlines and use VoIP or mobile instead.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> I am not picking on you tonight....


I know... you are just fine tuning my points.

In general I think we agreed on these...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> The DirecTV DVR gives you a small PIP window like most of the Receivers, but the TiVos give you GOFP (Guide Over Full Picture), which really isn't all that bad. IN fact, I see one as giving all that much of an advantage over the other, but I guess it is just a matter of taste, kind of like a aquiring a taste for drinking wine.


Well that is for the Guide mode...
But you also get the same thing (on the R15), when you do just about anything except going into the full Interactive mode... (Such as doing Title Searches, Keyword, Prioritizer, todo list, ect... ect...)


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> you also get the same thing (on the R15)


The R-15 is clearly the ultimate achievement of mankind to date. I say this as a big Tivo fan.


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## SeattleCarl (Nov 11, 2005)

Dkerr24 said:


> I was surprised to find out that a town near me called Mustang, OK is the only town in North America named "Mustang". You'd think an image of prancing ponies and muscle cars would be a popular name for a town? Guess not.


Well, I've driven past the sign on I-80 that says Mustang NV. It's where that once famous Mustang Ranch was. Now whether or not it actually qualifies as a town, I don't know. But it does have a sign by a freeway exit.

There is also Mustang TX, about 60 miles south of DFW.

Carl


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## zuiko (May 16, 2002)

Redux said:


> The R-15 is clearly the ultimate achievement of mankind to date. I say this as a big Tivo fan.


Yea... it would be nice watching TV instead of watching the static "This may take a few minutes" message. It feels like I'm waiting for Windows 95 to boot on a 486 with 16mb of RAM.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

zuiko said:


> it would be nice watching TV instead of watching the static "This may take a few minutes" message. It feels like I'm waiting for Windows


Certainly there are huge valid criticisms of Tivos. I've made lots.

What I don't understand is the need to promote another product on a Tivo forum.

I post on usenet sports groups that talk about teams I like. We say good stuff, we say bad stuff (far worse than you'd find anywhere else, actually). But _some_ posters feel they need to go onto opponents' newsgroups to knock the resident team and promote their own. I simply don't understand the mental process.


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## Rob00GT (Mar 10, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> R10's are the holy grail of DVRs.....


I would respectfully disagree. I'm on the lookout for very cheap Series 2 DirecTivos to add to my network. The advent of tools like the Zipper have made my DVR so much more useful, which brings me to my biggest prediction for the future:

In the future, older generation products like the non-R10 DirecTivo will be much sought after not because they are any better than the new products, but because of what they *don't* have... namely built-in digital rights management that's deeply embedded in the hardware. Linux-based devices that can be reprogrammed or hacked to perform additional or other functions are infinitely more useful than single-purpose devices planned for future releases. Anybody think an R15 will ever be able to play mp3 files from a PC on your network? My receivers can thanks to this site.

Oh and my prediction for the "holy grail" of DVR's? The HR10-250 that's been hacked to allow video extraction. Combined with the coming-soon HD-DVD/BluRay burners they will be a major source of home-made high definition media. I'd certainly like an easy way to start a collection of SuperBowls in high def.

You heard it here first.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Redux said:


> What I don't understand is the need to promote another product on a Tivo forum.


You do realize the title of this thread is "non TiVo DVR is HORRIFIC" don't you? I suppose that is technically a promotion of the product, but not a very good one.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Rob00GT said:


> I would respectfully disagree. I'm on the lookout for very cheap Series 2 DirecTivos to add to my network. The advent of tools like the Zipper have made my DVR so much more useful, which brings me to my biggest prediction for the future:
> .....
> You heard it here first.


Rob00GT.... Sorry my post should have been a little more clear...

The "Holy Grail" comment was a tounge and cheek (aka sarcasim) I should have added a  after it.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Redux said:


> Certainly there are huge valid criticisms of Tivos. I've made lots.
> 
> What I don't understand is the need to promote another product on a Tivo forum.
> 
> I post on usenet sports groups that talk about teams I like. We say good stuff, we say bad stuff (far worse than you'd find anywhere else, actually). But _some_ posters feel they need to go onto opponents' newsgroups to knock the resident team and promote their own. I simply don't understand the mental process.


The vast majority of the R15 discussion takes place now at www.dbstalk.com

There are the few posts and threads that remain here... In general the rule of thumb is to redirect discussion there, but occasionally things need to be ... "corrected" so those that just "read" one thread or forum can get a better round picture of the discussion.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

zuiko said:


> The absolute worst thing about the Tivo units is how unbelievably slow they are. Especially ordering the season passes. Somebody screwed up big time with the way it stores that data. With the R10 it was faster but still not acceptible IMO. Now I am back to my S1 and it takes about 15 minutes (literally) to change the priority on a season pass. 15 minutes that the Tivo is effectively locked up and can't do anything... not even watch live TV. Everything else is slow too (press a button and wait 10 seconds before it actually does something), but I can live with it.
> 
> If the R15 was fast that would make up for a lot of shortcomings. The not requiring a call is a huge bonus as well. With a Tivo based unit you have a serious problem if you dont have a landline. More and more people do not have landlines and use VoIP or mobile instead.


Actually that is only on non-6.2 version DirecTiVos. On all 6.2 version DirecTiVos you will likely not hear almost anyone complaining about speed, because the 6.2 version upgrade was about all about SPEED. Compared to a non-6.2 version, the 6.2 versions could be anywhere from twice as fast to 10-15 times faster.

Its just too bad the R10s didn't get the upgrade. That is just one of the reasons that I am purchasing a SD-DVR80 instead of an R10, but there are additional reasons all related to the 6.2 upgrade, but SPEED is one of the main ones.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Well that is for the Guide mode...
> But you also get the same thing (on the R15), when you do just about anything except going into the full Interactive mode... (Such as doing Title Searches, Keyword, Prioritizer, todo list, ect... ect...)


Actually if you had read the next post you would have found the following "I do believe I would like a PIP like window while being in all of the menus, but I guess I will have to wait for the Series 3 TiVos.", so having a PIP like window available while in other menus would be nice and it is one advantage that the "R15" really does, beyond the stoarge usage and a few others.

"You realize that was hard for me to say, don't you?"


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Redux said:


> The R-15 is clearly the ultimate achievement of mankind to date. I say this as a big Tivo fan.


Now all of us would agree that there have been many ultimate achievements of mankind, but even as much as we love our DVRs, "You can pry my DVR FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS", I really doubt that anyone could make the statement that any DVR is an ultimate achievement of mankind, even the completely insane "R15" people.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> Actually if you had read the next post you would have found the following "I do believe I would like a PIP like window while being in all of the menus, but I guess I will have to wait for the Series 3 TiVos.", so having a PIP like window available while in other menus would be nice and it is one advantage that the "R15" really does, beyond the stoarge usage and a few others.
> 
> "You realize that was hard for me to say, don't you?"


 yep... hence why I am smiling as I got you to say it twice... 

And now going back over the posts, I did "miss" the one line where you elaborated on the PIP window... sorry about that.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Rob00GT said:


> I would respectfully disagree. I'm on the lookout for very cheap Series 2 DirecTivos to add to my network. The advent of tools like the Zipper have made my DVR so much more useful, which brings me to my biggest prediction for the future:
> 
> In the future, older generation products like the non-R10 DirecTivo will be much sought after not because they are any better than the new products, but because of what they *don't* have... namely built-in digital rights management that's deeply embedded in the hardware. Linux-based devices that can be reprogrammed or hacked to perform additional or other functions are infinitely more useful than single-purpose devices planned for future releases.


I would agree with this part of your post, because I am purchasing some SD-DVR80's as backup for my HDVR2s, because I really don't plan on going to HD until 2009 and I need backup hardware that is hackable, because all of my HDVR2s have been hacked and I really cannot live with out MRV anymore.

But some of your other statements come close to the statement that one very insane "R15" user had made in this post that he tought that the "R15" was an ultimate achievement of mankind, which is pure lunacy. Agreed everyone has a right to there own opinion, but IMHO that statement is pure lunacy.


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## Rkkeller (May 13, 2004)

I would say besides the person above me feeling the need to respond to every post and his constant nitpicking this has been a pretty decent open minded thread.

DirecTiVo's fast ??? I about spit out my coffee chuckling so hard. I wish people would actually own and use an R-15 before making comments as its sooooo obvious they have never seen or used an R-15.


Rich


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

... now now... that is a personal attack... This is a friendly conversation, with all points being pretty valid...

And yes, the 6.1 and 6.2 software DRASTICALLY improved speed performance over previous versions. (And using your point, unless you have seen v2 and v3 of the TiVo software, it hard to compare the speed increases that the 6.x brought).

But overall, the speed of the R15 is quicker in most areas, then it is in the TiVo... but a lot of that is because it does things different (aka figures out the ToDo list beyond today later on when the system is not in heavy usage, rather then what the TiVo does about figuring it all out now) The R15 still has a few places where is slows down, but it is offset by other feature it has (such as the PIP in the window and playing the audio of the program, you don't realize that some of those "Find By" searches actually take 15-20 seconds to run)


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Rkkeller said:


> I would say besides the person above me feeling the need to respond to every post and his constant nitpicking this has been a pretty decent open minded thread.
> 
> DirecTiVo's fast ??? I about spit out my coffee chuckling so hard. I wish people would actually own and use an R-15 before making comments as its sooooo obvious they have never seen or used an R-15.
> 
> Rich


I have to assume that you might be picking on me. That's okay; I am surely not "nitpicking", just clarifying the information. The biggest difference between a generalist and detailist (not a word) is the level of the detail that a detailist finds acceptable.

From your post in this thread and previous posts in other threads (I did check) you appear to be a generalist and that is okay. Usually generalists have other useful traits like being highly creative, and in this world we all have to get along. Agreed most generalists find detalists as supplying too much detail, and that is understandable.

Its just like your post in another thread about the show The Book of Daniel. There where way too many invalid or wrong details in that post to make it a truly valid argument, but I believe that most people got the general idea that you really didnt care for the show. In fact, just yesterday I made the comment to my wife, that if Jesus showed up just one more time as an imaginary buddy then that show was toast and I would not be watching it anymore. I did think that the other references did get a little out of hand, and I was comparing it to the Desperate Housewives meet the Man of the Cloth.

So even we Detailists and Generalists have something in common.

So, sorry to appear as a NITPICKER, just trying to clarify points of reference, and I understand that type of detail does rub some people the wrong way.


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## redthumb (May 30, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> RedThumb.... All those things you list... Do you not think they are going to be in the TiVo too? If that is what the Content Provider market dictates?
> 
> In what rational world do you think something like those options will get enabled by DirecTV if their chief competitors don't.... Unless they are mandated by law... I highly (on the higest level possible) doubt you will see DirecTV purposesly enable "features" like that. As it would be "commercial" suicide.


I was referring to comments made here, I think about the time that TiVo lost its deal with DirecTV. There were comments to the effect that Murdoch's agenda was to eliminate the ability to skip commercials, even to FF through them. So, I see the omission of the 30-sec skip in the new unit as a step in that direction.

No, I don't think that feature will carry into the existing TiVo's, but if DirecTV can issue an update that disables it, I think they eventually will as I think their advertisers will pressure them to do it.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

redthumb said:


> I was referring to comments made here, I think about the time that TiVo lost its deal with DirecTV. There were comments to the effect that Murdoch's agenda was to eliminate the ability to skip commercials, even to FF through them. So, I see the omission of the 30-sec skip in the new unit as a step in that direction.
> 
> No, I don't think that feature will carry into the existing TiVo's, but if DirecTV can issue an update that disables it, I think they eventually will as I think their advertisers will pressure them to do it.


I am not sure that I could agree that the release of the DirecTV DVR was to eliminate the ability to skip commercials, but I do believe that the reason that the DirecTV DVR is one of only a small handful of DVR devices that do not have a 30-second skip is because I believe Murdochs company is hoping that it might give them additional leverage with broadcasters and other video suppliers. Almost 98% of all DVR software has the capability to do a 30-second skip, and even the new Microsoft LG based DVR has 30-second skip, so the DirecTV DVR is really in the minority.

I really doubt that DirecTV would attempt to go back and remove the capability from the DirecTiVos, because it really is a backdoor function and very few people actually know about it and an even smaller number use it almost 100% of the time, although I would be VERY ANGRY if they removed it, because I use it almost 100% of the time and have for many years. And even more importantly, I use 30-second skip to watch football and it would be a real pain to have to go back to FF.


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## zuiko (May 16, 2002)

Well, do any of the Tivos come with the 30 second skip out of the box? I know there is a code you can enter to convert skip to tick to do this but I've never done it since skip to tick is a very valuable button (more valuable than the 30s skip IMO) and I don't want to lose it. I use skip to tick all the time since it performs 3 different useful functions. I don't think it is part of some evil conspiracy here. I've used the DISH PVR which has that functionality built in and I didn't care for it. It is probably whatever you get used to.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

zuiko said:


> Well, do any of the Tivos come with the 30 second skip out of the box? I know there is a code you can enter to convert skip to tick to do this but I've never done it since skip to tick is a very valuable button (more valuable than the 30s skip IMO) and I don't want to lose it. I use skip to tick all the time since it performs 3 different useful functions. I don't think it is part of some evil conspiracy here. I've used the DISH PVR which has that functionality built in and I didn't care for it. It is probably whatever you get used to.


No.

You don't lose skip to tick mark anymore when you turn on 30 second skip. You just lose being able to skip from beginning to end (and back) within a single press. Try it. Select Play Select 30 Select


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Since people are talking about the perf of the R15, I finally saw it and played with it at CES. It's no speed demon either and in some operations is a lot slower than Tivo. Yes, it is definitely faster in its equivalent of reordering SPs than Tivos are, but man, the UI is really strange and intuitive to say the least. 

It also didn't have nice refinements like ignoring words like "The" at the beginning of titles. For instance, on Tivo, to search for The Daily Show, you put in DAIL... On the R15, you'll have enter THE DAIL...

It's definitely a huge step backwards from DirecTivo. About the only thing that the DirecTV guys could tout was their interactive condensed football game recaps as an example of an interactive app. They mentioned (and obviously seem to care about) having control over the boxes. The app and other videos are pushed to your box, but that's nothing new, Tivo's been doing that for ages.

Their R15 also got into a bad state (unclear if the build of software was a final release or an interim build) where almost nothing showed up in the My VoD list (equivalent to now playing). The DirecTV had to power cycle it.

I really hope Tivo is able to renegotiate w/DirecTV and patch things up. It's a real shame that most new DirecTV customers who want PVRs will be subjected to the R15.  It's also a shame that the only PVR from D* that will support MPEG4 will be another box based on part uCentric and part NDS software [basically the same UI has the R15).


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Not knowing the details on what software version you where on a CES... can't really say if some of those things have been fixed or not (I would think that they would have been on the latest).

Either way... the MyVod not seeing stuff (it is a "semi-common" issue), but all you need to do is hit the green button twice and it will redraw.... (yes a bug, but not a deal braker).

The UI is different no dobut... but it is the same UI that all newer DirecTV boxes are going to use, so they have a common interface among them. It took me about a week to get use to it... Now that I am, it is really no different then using the TiVo interface (even though I still love the Peanut Remote over any other one out there).

"Hugh" step backward... Nah... I see it more of that they are starting the race late, thus naturally behind TiVo... But I think after a few of the major issue get corrected in the next software release, the R15 will start to close that gap... real fast.


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## rick31621 (Jun 20, 2004)

cwerdna said:


> Since people are talking about the perf of the R15, I finally saw it and played with it at CES. It's no speed demon either and in some operations is a lot slower than Tivo. Yes, it is definitely faster in its equivalent of reordering SPs than Tivos are, but man, the UI is really strange and intuitive to say the least.
> 
> It also didn't have nice refinements like ignoring words like "The" at the beginning of titles. For instance, on Tivo, to search for The Daily Show, you put in DAIL... On the R15, you'll have enter THE DAIL...
> 
> ...


Thank you for an excellent and unbiased comparrison of the two DVRs.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

zuiko said:


> Well, do any of the Tivos come with the 30 second skip out of the box? I know there is a code you can enter to convert skip to tick to do this but I've never done it since skip to tick is a very valuable button (more valuable than the 30s skip IMO) and I don't want to lose it. I use skip to tick all the time since it performs 3 different useful functions. I don't think it is part of some evil conspiracy here. I've used the DISH PVR which has that functionality built in and I didn't care for it. It is probably whatever you get used to.


Actually even after you have 30-second skip activated, you can still use the skip to tick functionality. And the code is SELECT PLAY SELECT 3 0 SELECT. But my hacked HDVR2s automatically activate the 30-second skip on reboot. I just wish that the SEND KEY function could be fixed for 6.2, so I could automatically activate the CLOCK, which is activated via SELECT PLAY SELECT 9 SELECT.


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## dshinnick (Jun 6, 2003)

Man, I'm so scared of the R15 that I went out and paid $100 for a new R10 just to put it away for backup in case one of my three other R10's bites the dust. Then I found out that I could even get a $100 rebate on it! I'm gonna stay with R10 until HD reaches critical mass, and then move to whatever is the HD-DVR of the day at that time.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

dshinnick said:


> Man, I'm so scared of the R15 that I went out and paid $100 for a new R10 just to put it away for backup in case one of my three other R10's bites the dust. Then I found out that I could even get a $100 rebate on it! I'm gonna stay with R10 until HD reaches critical mass, and then move to whatever is the HD-DVR of the day at that time.


My plan exactly, except my units of choice are HDVR2s and SD-DVR80's, all of which are currently hacked and are hackable for HMO/MRV, etc.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Since I've never used an R15, I don't know how fast it is compared to Tivo. I can easily believe that it's faster. The 6.2 software is much faster than 3.X, but a snail is also faster than a slug.

However, speed is only one factor. R15's likely speed advantage doesn't neccesarily make it better.

Just my 2 scents.


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## rick31621 (Jun 20, 2004)

dshinnick said:


> Man, I'm so scared of the R15 that I went out and paid $100 for a new R10 just to put it away for backup in case one of my three other R10's bites the dust. Then I found out that I could even get a $100 rebate on it! I'm gonna stay with R10 until HD reaches critical mass, and then move to whatever is the HD-DVR of the day at that time.


I too went hunting for 2 R10s after disconnecting my 2 day old R15. A few weeks later D* sent me a rebate form so one R10 ended up being free. I now have a back-up R10 should I need it.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

rick31621 said:


> I too went hunting for 2 R10s after disconnecting my 2 day old R15. A few weeks later D* sent me a rebate form so one R10 ended up being free. I now have a back-up R10 should I need it.


Do you need to pay the mirroring fee on the backup (inactive units)? I could've sworn that there was some clause that DirecTV DVRs (Tivo and non-Tivo) had to be activated within a certain # of days otherwise you'll get socked w/a huge fee ($150?). I presume this is to keep people from buying up PVRs for parts or whatever since they obviously are selling them at a loss.

When my parents move back to this house and if they want to keep DirecTV, I didn't want to either pay (!) for a DTivo on Ebay when that time comes or buy an extra DTivo now and pay the mirroring fee on it. Luckily, this problem was solved because a coworker gave away an inactive Series 1 DTivo and an inactive Series 2 DTivo. He's got 2 HD DTivos already.


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## itsmeitsmeitsme (Nov 13, 2003)

I have one R-10 and 2-R15s. Just got the R-15s. From what I can tell It really wouldn't mater to me which one I had. Both do the work I want.......Record the shows I want when I want them.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

itsmeitsmeitsme said:


> I have one R-10 and 2-R15s. Just got the R-15s. From what I can tell It really wouldn't mater to me which one I had. Both do the work I want.......Record the shows I want when I want them.


Unplug your R10 for a few weeks and use only the R15s. Tell me if it does what you want reliably.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

cwerdna said:


> Unplug your R10 for a few weeks and use only the R15s. Tell me if it does what you want reliably.


How about for a couple months? I have done so and it does everything I need it to do very reliably.


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## Tekneek (Sep 23, 2004)

The only positive anybody has tried to use on me for the R15 was the 90 minute buffer, which is pretty much meaningless for me. We have two DirecTV-TiVos in the house and we almost never watch live TV on them. Live viewing is pretty much exclusively done on the HDTV (no HD DVR).

I know a few installers around my area and they HATE the new receivers and especially the new DVRs. More than anything, they complain that more of them are DOA than previously, and the operation of them is far from intuitive. 

Having an H20, I know what they are talking about. My Samsung HD receiver was much easier to operate before a software update last summer had required me to reboot it once a week.


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## Tekneek (Sep 23, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> The UI is different no dobut... but it is the same UI that all newer DirecTV boxes are going to use, so they have a common interface among them. It took me about a week to get use to it... Now that I am, it is really no different then using the TiVo interface (even though I still love the Peanut Remote over any other one out there).


I suppose this UI is very similar to the H20 then, right? What a beast that thing is. It takes multiple presses of buttons to do what one did on every previous D* receiver I ever had. The filters it tries to encourage me to use are only truly useful if I subscribe to every single channel offering, because that's what it pumps into the 'filtered' guide...making that filter menu it makes me go through a total waste of time.

One truly horrible "feature" I have read about regarding the R15 is the way you lose your entire 14 day program guide if you have to reboot it. That's a really clever feature. I'm not sure why they would intentionally want to punish their customers with that one. If the receiver ever needs a reboot, it's likely not the customers fault, but they will sure pay the price after it when they try to setup recordings or just search the listings.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

It is the same UI as the H20... yes... but tell ya what... Had the H20 installed yesterday, and it took me like 15 seconds to know how to move around the entire unite (since I was familiar with the R15)

So far, in general... I haven't found it to be "that" many more clicks to do certain things.
Maybe one of these days I will sit and actually compare and count the clicks.


As for the 14 day programming guide... Yes and No...
When there is a restart of the system, the Guide data isn't fully populated immediately.. That is correct. But you will see the next 4 hours pretty much in like 5 minutes. then over the next few hours it continues to rebuild the grid and guide data.

And yes, it takes about 12 hours to rebuild the whole thing... But that would have an impact if you are rebooting and what to IMMEDIATLY check all your recordings are try to schedule something that is not on in the next 6 hours or so. 

So if the system reboots in the middle of the night for a software update, chances are likely you won't even know it did it.

On the flip side, I have noticed the guide is much faster (plus you can get the single row guide while watching programming), The guide is stored in RAM so, hence the reason why it is faster and while it needs to rebuild on a restart. 

Also noticed that entries get in their faster then the TiVo counterpart. Just a few weeks ago, the entires for 24 where available on the R15, about a day earlier then then where on the HR10-250... Now granted it wasn't needed for 14 more days at the time I was checking, but what if it was for a guide change for TONIGHT... Either pro's/con's both have their ups and downs.

The Guide filter is a tad annoying, and wish they would have an option just to set it to what I want all the time...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Tekneek said:


> The only positive anybody has tried to use on me for the R15 was the 90 minute buffer, which is pretty much meaningless for me. We have two DirecTV-TiVos in the house and we almost never watch live TV on them. Live viewing is pretty much exclusively done on the HDTV (no HD DVR).
> 
> I know a few installers around my area and they HATE the new receivers and especially the new DVRs. More than anything, they complain that more of them are DOA than previously, and the operation of them is far from intuitive.
> 
> Having an H20, I know what they are talking about. My Samsung HD receiver was much easier to operate before a software update last summer had required me to reboot it once a week.


The Picture in Menu (with audio all the time), is a pretty nice feature that is growing on very fast (since I now have it on the H20 and the R15s)

The installer I had here yesterday, loved the fact taht the R15 doesn't need the phone line to activate DVR services... And that the auto-detection on startup, (combined with the phone call), is saving him on average 30-60 minutes and installation.

Different customers, Different Installers, Different experiences.

I don't know... maybe it is just the silcone thumb.... I found the UI to be pretty straight forward, once you get the basics down. If the "menu" button on the remote was just a little bigger and centralized (like the TiVo/DirecTV button on the peanut), it would be 10 times easier to use... IMHO.


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## Tekneek (Sep 23, 2004)

With our H20, it has odd pauses where it does not respond to a command but when you hit it again it will do it twice. Hitting 'Guide' twice to get the same thing I used to get with one push on other models annoys me. I prefered menus and selections on previous models that were specific enough that you weren't required to then navigate tabs across the top to find what you actually wanted. Granted, I don't have to do it that often, but it is definitely not simpler or even the same as what I had before.

I have had other D* receivers with the video/audio on in the corner while perusing the guide. The Samsung SIR-TS360 that the H20 replaced did that, and a Hughes receiver that is in storage somewhere in the basement had that feature as well. As far as having that with a DVR, I guess I don't miss something I never had and would probably prefer to pause the program I was watching anyway. I really don't TiVo anything I would scroll through a guide while watching. 

To be honest, I am glad some people like the R15. Eventually, if I stay with D*, I am sure I will be forced to switch to their DVR and forget about having a TiVo with a receiver built-in. I still consider TiVo to be the best and it still blows my mind that a company with a deal to bring the best to their customers would intentionally decide to bring them less than the best to save a buck. It astounds me how they piss away one thing after another that made them stand out when compared to cable.


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## DTivoMem (Nov 7, 2003)

Dkerr24 said:


> I was surprised to find out that a town near me called Mustang, OK is the only town in North America named "Mustang". You'd think an image of prancing ponies and muscle cars would be a popular name for a town? Guess not.


Actually there is a place called Mustang, NV proud home of the former Mustang Ranch brothel. (which oddly enough was, for a short period, owned by the IRS)

http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=Mustang,+NV


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

DTivoMem said:


> which oddly enough was, for a short period, owned by the IRS


Now that is the perfect setup for one very funny joke.


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## SpacemanSpiff (Jan 31, 2004)

I've been by there many times. (It's right off the Interstate). It was the one place to be screwed by the IRS where you might actually enjoy it.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

SpacemanSpiff said:


> I've been by there many times. (It's right off the Interstate). It was the one place to be screwed by the IRS where you might actually enjoy it.


I just couldn't bring myself to using that information as a truly great joke, but I am glad you did.

Especially, since the IRS has been in the news this last week about how they have been screwing many poor people for many years out of their justified "EARNED INCOME CREDIT", while at the same time letting the rich get by with almost everything.


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## Matt9876 (Sep 1, 2001)

Installed first R-15 two days ago. After software update download the unit need two manual reboots to get it to record from the on screen guide per the owner manual instructions. "unit didn't respond to commands and made a low bong noise"  

Not exactly a smooth 1st experience.


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## TheRatPatrol (Feb 21, 2003)

Kind of got depressed tonight. 

Just got back from CC. They had 2 open box specials on R10's, one was a 100 hr. for 86.00, the other was a 70 hr. for 79.00. Made me wonder why anyone would returned them? Didn't see any more new R10's in the box. But they did have a whole pallet of R15's. Don't like the layout of the remote on the R15. Still don't understand why D* is putting so much emphasis on the R15, its not HD and it cannot support MPEG4. 

Also noticed the color of the box on the HD-Tivo has changed from white to black. I take it they're still making HD-Tivo's then. 

Why did D* have to move away from Tivo?  Maybe, just maybe, D* will realize the mistake they have made and will re-up with Tivo before the contract expires in 2007.


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## robpickles (May 19, 2005)

My in-laws just got an R-15 and the thing doesn't even work.

I looked at it and it doesn't even seem to be recording live tv at all. The timline appears all black and anytime i tried to use a DVR function like pause or rewind there was no response from the unit at all. Anyone else having this problem? Sorry didn't have time to go through the entire thread. Will read through it later on.

I agree with all of you who hate this thing. They should have never let Tivo stop making their units. I love the Tivo interface and my 2 units I will cherish. The whole menu system blows chunks. The remote is garbage. This unit is just one big Bag of Suck(c).

Rob 

(c) 2000 something - IndyJones1023


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

robpickles said:


> My in-laws just got an R-15 and the thing doesn't even work.


This is a new feature. According to DTV it improves the TV viewing experience.


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## Typorir (Jan 7, 2005)

Redux said:


> This is a new feature. According to DTV it improves the TV viewing experience.


..and those who have never used a DVR before will love it


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## vettegofast (Dec 7, 2005)

Can the R10 record 2 channels at the same time like the R15?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Yes the R10 can record 2 channels at the same time, if setup accordingly.


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## jlkjcskin (Jan 16, 2006)

Pardon me for getting in so late on this conversation, but I have just received my first DirecTV HD DVR. Is the R10 that everyone is comparing to the R15 the HR10-250??

If so, glad to know that I lucked-up a bit in getting that unit from a DirecTV installer just months ago. Wish I had known about this forum earlier.

Also, it sounds like I don't have much chance in hell of putting a Wireless USB Adaptor solution in-place on the HR10-250???

Thanks, in advance, for the guidance.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

No... the HR10-250 is the only available HD DVR for DirecTV... It is a TiVo powered unit.

The R10 is the latest (and probably last) SD version DVR powered by TiVo.

The HR10-250 can be tweeked to do what you ask... 
And if you where expecting an R15 or R10 and got an HR10-250... you got VERY VERY lucky, as you just got your self a $399 - $999 unit for the price of a $100

The HR20 is the next DVR model for the HD versions of DirecTV... It is expected mid 2006


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## kubedawg (Aug 26, 2005)

As an employee of D*, I must say that the new r15 blows chunks, and then dry heaves afterwards. 

yes, the menu system and the guide might be easier to read, but other than that, they half-assed it on this one. 

First of all, wishlist is gone, 2ndly, suggestions are no more, 3rd, you cannot switch between tuners, and finally, you cannot easily setup a series link(used to be called season pass)

I've had more complaints about the new r15 than I've gotten calls for SFSS...

I think D* needs to rethink this whole process, and realize the benefits of staying with tivo. 

Tivo is a great company, and if I were forced to swap my 2 r10's for r15's, I'd say go shove it up your ass and pay the $12.99 a month for a standalone unit that had much more useability than that of DTivos.

They seriously should think about making a "common sense" department for Directv.


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## jlkjcskin (Jan 16, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> No... the HR10-250 is the only available HD DVR for DirecTV... It is a TiVo powered unit.
> 
> The R10 is the latest (and probably last) SD version DVR powered by TiVo.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Ebonovic. No, now it makes sense. I definitely was looking for an HD machine as it was a specific HD install. Any insight as to what tweaking I would need to do to make the HR10-250 work wirelessly and what kind of adapter might work?


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## TheRatPatrol (Feb 21, 2003)

kubedawg said:


> As an employee of D*, I must say that the new r15 blows chunks, and then dry heaves afterwards.
> 
> I've had more complaints about the new r15 than I've gotten calls for SFSS...


And I'm sure you're not the only one that has received complaints about it. And I hope the powers that be at D* know about all the calls and complaints that you and your co-workers are receiving.

So seriously, what does D* plan on doing about it? Any chance of them rethinking their decision and going back to Tivo, or at least giving the customers a choice of which DVR they want to use?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

kubedawg said:


> As an employee of D*, I must say that the new r15 blows chunks, and then dry heaves afterwards.
> 
> yes, the menu system and the guide might be easier to read, but other than that, they half-assed it on this one.
> 
> ...


Hmmm.... 
Wishlist is still there... FIND BY does basically the same thing. You don't get the option to search all of them at once, and it only keeps the last 25... So it is not the same, but it is there.

Suggestions... TiVo patent so don't expect it any other then the TiVo, unless they "lease" it out.

Hmm... Hitting the R button twice on the remote to setup a Series Link... Yep that certainly is more difficult then the TiVo method... (sarcasim off)

As for not switching between the tuners... Okay..... at least that one I can agree with you on.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> Suggestions... TiVo patent so don't expect it any other then the TiVo, unless they "lease" it out.


You keep saying that. Show me the TiVo Suggestions patent. Besides, they had no problem with the progress bar (US6847778) or bookmarks (US6868225).

Ironically, it's NDS who has a patent on something somewhat close to suggestions (US6637029).



> Hmm... Hitting the R button twice on the remote to setup a Series Link... Yep that certainly is more difficult then the TiVo method... (sarcasim off)


Anti-intuitive at best. And hitting it a third time (or a second time if it's not a series) to make it *not* record? *Really* bad idea from a UI perspective, especially when using an IR remote (where the signal can be blocked or weak due to old batteries, etc.)


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

ping said:


> You keep saying that. Show me the TiVo Suggestions patent.  Besides, they had no problem with the progress bar (US6847778) or bookmarks (US6868225).
> 
> Ironically, it's NDS who has a patent on something somewhat close to suggestions (US6637029).
> 
> Anti-intuitive at best. And hitting it a third time (or a second time if it's not a series) to make it *not* record? *Really* bad idea from a UI perspective, especially when using an IR remote (where the signal can be blocked or weak due to old batteries, etc.)


20030182567

"Client-side multimedia content targeting system"

Abstract Segment:
"The viewer's client system locally retains the viewer's preferences and other personal information that the viewer has entered and is sent targeting information relating to program guide objects by a server"

Aka: Thumbs Up/Down compared to the TiVo Servers to generate a list of "suggestions"

Link

So it is not an Issued Patent yet, but...... It is an item that TiVo clearly invented as you have seen no other DVR out there doing it... Thus it is an area, if TiVo wanted to challange it, they would have a much better argument then say the other two use listed.

Such as a "progress bar".... progress bar's have been around for ever, TiVo didn't invent it.. they may have "patent" a very specific method (just like they patent their remote control layout), but overall "patenting" a progress bar isn't going to hold that much water in a court.

Same with "bookmarking"... You already had defined chapter points in DVDs and other methods, ect.... So...

It boils down to DirecTV's copywrite/patent lawyers digging through and identifing which patents hold enough merit to avoid the possible issues...

Suggestions must be one that they feel TiVo would win, the others they think if Tivo or any other company brought a case, it is so abstract that there is minimal risk.

As for the Double R and the lack of remote response... Sure, I would like to see maybe a slight pause if I accidently hit it a third time.... but in general... you learn to hit twice (just like you learn anything else), and wait a moment for the display to catch up (even if it needs to as in practice so far, there is a minimal delay).

Just like you get used to the "please wait" screens on a TiVo, or the times it just sits there when you hit FF or Play and it doesn't respond....

And also with the series link for the "other method to set it"...
What is the difference between going to the RECORD menu on a TiVo, and having to select Season Pass, to set a season pass... as compared to going to the Record Menu on an R15, and hitting the green button to open the Series Link Tab ? (it is actually less clicks of the remote, since you don't have to "navigate" a menu item to select Season Pass, you just TAB to that screen with a single button)


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> 20030182567
> 
> "Client-side multimedia content targeting system"


Ah, you found it this time. I overlooked that one. Thanks.

BTW, I'm surprised they even bothered filing that one, seeing as it was filed many years after first commercial use. Edit: nevermind, it's a continuation of something filed in 1999, which actually has "suggestions" as several of it's 162 (!) claims.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

ping said:


> Ah, you found it this time. I overlooked that one. Thanks.
> 
> BTW, I'm surprised they even bothered filing that one, seeing as it was filed many years after first commercial use. Edit: nevermind, it's a continuation of something filed in 1999, which actually has "suggestions" as several of it's 162 (!) claims.


I had actually never "seached" before, just going off memory of other posts... and the fact that that there is the TM usually after the words Suggestions and Wishlists... figured it had to be there...

At least now I have the "number" to refer to now...


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> I had actually never "seached" before, just going off memory of other posts


You don't realize this, but we've had this conversation on a different forum before 



> ... and the fact that that there is the TM usually after the words Suggestions and Wishlists... figured it had to be there...


Should have stopped sooner. One has almost nothing to do with the other.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Ah... other forums, other logins... gotcha..


As for the TM.. .I know they are two different things... but I couldn't see someone TradeMarking a Term, and not protecting the technology and logic behind it. (hence the connection)


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

I know nothing about the new unit. But through all of this I have not seen one thing about WAF the single most important feature of the Tivo and Peanut. If I have to "teach" my wife how to use a DVR I might as well shoot myself. She never ever could "get" the dishplayer from the competition.


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## TheRatPatrol (Feb 21, 2003)

Jerry_K said:


> I know nothing about the new unit. But through all of this I have not seen one thing about WAF the single most important feature of the Tivo and Peanut. If I have to "teach" my wife how to use a DVR I might as well shoot myself. She never ever could "get" the dishplayer from the competition.


What is WAF??


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

theratpatrol said:


> What is WAF??


Wife Acceptance Factor


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## bengalfreak (Oct 20, 2002)

Stoystown said:


> (By the way - some people find the term "indian giver" offensive).


I fail to see why anyone would find the term "Indian giver" offensive since it refers to things being given TO Indians and then being taken back, not things being given BY Indians. Unless, of course, its the term Indian that your are being offended by. Alas, native american giver just doesn't have the same catchy ring to it. You may now return to your previously scheduled programming. I apologize for hijacking the thread.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

I don't have one, but based on reading various forums, I'd expect WAF for R15 to be quite low until (unless?) they get series links to be rock solid.

TiVo has legendary WAF (in fact I'd never heard of the term before that). Many of us have experience of "why the heck are you buying this thing?", only to eventually have to buy another one so she can have her own.

BTW, I suppose some people would find the term "WAF" offensive.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

WAF is better the SOAF (too close to SOFA)... 

Either way... the R15 actually does have WAF in my home, She does like the TiVo a bit more (basically because WE are so used to it (had it for nearly 5 years now)).... 

And the R15 is starting to get SAF (Son Approval Factor, as he is 4.5)... Just from the Commercials for the R15, has knows how to use the thing. (He knows how to start, stop, rewind... with "just one button", and to find HIS shows in the list)

I still like the Peanute remote over the R23 though...


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## itsmeitsmeitsme (Nov 13, 2003)

The WAF is also good at my house. I have an R-10 in the living room but have 2 r-15s in the bedrooms(ours and daughters). As ebonovic said both my wife and daughter are use to the r-10 that we have had a couple of years, but the r-10s are gaining acceptance from both after 1 week that we have had them.


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