# Do you plan on buying a TiVo Mini at launch?



## jfh3

Do you plan to buy the TiVo Mini at launch or shortly thereafter?


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## magnus

I'll be waiting to see what features I will get for the $250. At this point... I'm not sold that there is enough value for what I want.


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## jfh3

magnus said:


> I'll be waiting to see what features I will get for the $250. At this point... I'm not sold that there is enough value for what I want.


What is it that you want?


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## waynomo

I didn't realize it was going to be $250. Too bad I can't change my vote.


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## UCLABB

The mini is coming out just as I need more boxes because we are losing channels with straight cable to TV. so I am buying a mini and xl4 to go along with our existing Premiere.


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## BigJimOutlaw

I'll get one upon Best Buy availability, as I have some gift cards that will bring it under $200. Otherwise I would've waited.


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## Dan203

I normally am all over new stuff like this, but my cable company is holding me back on this one. I still have some channels in my area that are broadcast in analog only, so even though I have an Elite I'm forced to hold on to a standard Premiere just so I can record those analog stations. As soon as they switch to all digital I'll be able to dump the Premiere and get a Mini instead. 4 tuners is enough for me, so the ONLY reason I need the Premiere right now is those stupid analog stations.

That being said if TiVo releases a 6 tuner unit I'll probably buy one anyway just so I can go nuts with the padding and never have to worry about a conflict again.


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## moyekj

$250 is about $50 higher than I would like but I'm not going to sweat that and since I have the required 4 tuner host already I probably will be picking one up pretty early barring any disastrous feedback. Plan to use it as a front end to eliminate need to use sluggish Elite directly and plan on allocating 0 tuners to the Mini since I don't need live TV for that location.


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## atmuscarella

Well given that I am OTA only and it will not work without having a Cable only TiVo 4/XL DVR I will not be buying one.


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## NotNowChief

I have been waiting for this to put in my kitchen, and I voted yes, but I am just becoming so aggravated that this thing is not on sale yet that i am beginnning to not want one out of spite.


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## slowbiscuit

At $250? No, I'll wait for the inevitable sale, refurb, or secondhand units. Won't jump until it's $200 or less.


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## Time_Lord

If my total cost to add a mini (including service in the mini) was less than $150 I would very seriously consider jumping at it. 

The only advantage I get from the mini that I don't get from my providers (FiOS) box is the ability to watch shows I recorded on the TiVo.

So my two choices for the mini (unless TiVo changes their pricing) are spend $150 on the mini and $6 per month, or $250 total cost one time on the mini.

OR

spend $6 per month for a box rental from Verizon.

The break even point in the mini (with life time service) is almost 4 years, I don't see the advantage of a mini.

-TL


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## aaronwt

I plan on getting a Mini at launch so I can replace the Premiere in my bedroom. I will turn in that cable card to save $4 a month off my FioS bill. The Premiere will move into my main viewing area, where my Elite is, and will become an OTA only box. I also use this box to take with me to my GFs house so we can watch shows. It's been a PITA to connect and disconnect it from the bedroom. In my main viewing area I will have easy access to the back of it.


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## aaronwt

Time_Lord said:


> If my total cost to add a mini (including service in the mini) was less than $150 I would very seriously consider jumping at it.
> 
> The only advantage I get from the mini that I don't get from my providers (FiOS) box is the ability to watch shows I recorded on the TiVo.
> 
> So my two choices for the mini (unless TiVo changes their pricing) are spend $150 on the mini and $6 per month, or $250 total cost one time on the mini.
> 
> OR
> 
> spend $6 per month for a box rental from Verizon.
> 
> The break even point in the mini (with life time service) is almost 4 years, I don't see the advantage of a mini.
> 
> -TL


The price of the Mini is supposed to be $100. Lifetime is supposed to be $150 or a $6 monthly charge.


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## innocentfreak

No. I have no use for one at my house anymore. 

I will eventually pick up one for my parents house once the next 4-6 tuner TiVo model comes out.


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## Time_Lord

aaronwt said:


> The price of the Mini is supposed to be $100. Lifetime is supposed to be $150 or a $6 monthly charge.


Sorry I was on the train heading into work when I wrote that and swapped the amounts, either way the purchase price of the mini along with lifetime service is still $250 and my monthly cost of a box from Verizon is $6 per month, the break even point stays the same at almost 4 years, and there is no break even when paying a monthly service fee. *PLUS* you loose a tuner on your 4/4XL

The reason I would purchase a mini would be for $$ savings and since I don't think it brings that much to the table to justify the premium price I will not be buying one.

-TL


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## compnurd

I think once the dynamic tuner thing is worked out these things will fly like hotcakes

I will pick up 3 at that point. Have one P4 for the main room, a P2 for the bedroom and a mini for the kids rooms and office.


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## mr_smits

compnurd said:


> I think once the dynamic tuner thing is worked out these things will fly like hotcakes
> 
> I will pick up 3 at that point. Have one P4 for the main room, a P2 for the bedroom and a mini for the kids rooms and office.


I will buy 2 Minis: when dynamic tuning is available and either a a new Tivo is released (with OTA) or when / if 2-tuner Premiere support is supported.


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## jcthorne

As it does not support OTA, its of no use to me in its current form. Its a CATV only device.


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## Loach

Undecided. I likely will eventually own 1 to 3 of these things, but the timing might depend on deals. If there's a compelling discounted bundle at launch, I will jump. If not, I'm not in a huge hurry.


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## Fist of Death

I'm looking at buying one the day they are released because my situation almost exactly mirrors aaronwt's above in post #13, then one more for our small kitchen TV the day dynamic tuning comes available.


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## NSPhillips

I want one to replace my Series 3 and drop two cable cards from my FIOS bill. It will be nice to have a smaller box for the bedroom TV. Looking forward to seeing what a mess I make of the wall when I try to mount it behind the TV...


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## mpaquette

I won't get one since I'm OTA only.


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## mahohmei

I will only buy one if/when it works with the TiVo Premiere two-tuner, since that's what we have now.


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## P42

Voted:
Maybe, but I will not be an early adopter

I'm excited to see this come to market, as I see it as being required for keeping Tivo relevant in the market place. I currently don't need this in my house, but I expect in the future I will.


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## takeagabu

If it was $150 I would have gotten 2 and replaced some other things in the house. But $250 seems a bit much. I am just going to wait around and see if there's a deal to get it for less than $200.


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## Videodrome

I dont understand the $6 dollar fee, what are you getting for the extra $6 a month ?


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## ferrumpneuma

Videodrome said:


> I dont understand the $6 dollar fee, what are you getting for the extra $6 a month ?


Permission to use the hardware.


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## atmuscarella

Videodrome said:


> I dont understand the $6 dollar fee, what are you getting for the extra $6 a month ?


The ability to only pay $99 upfront instead of $249. The math is pretty clear that people should pay the full price upfront but some will want opt for the monthly payment.


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## h2oskierc

I would be all over the mini, except that I have NO PLANS to upgrade my two-tuner premiere. Make the mini work with that and I will buy at least one, if not two.


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## Jonathan_S

I'd kind of like one to have TV in my bedroom again, but then I'd actually have to _get_ a new TV for my bedroom. 
(Previous one was an SD set)

I'll be holding off for a bit I think.


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## magnus

jfh3 said:


> What is it that you want?



Support for OTA - 2 tuner boxes
Netflix
Amazon Streaming
Vudu
Integrated NPL
A lot more for $250


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## Saxion

If the price was <$200 and it worked with a 2-tuner Premiere, I'd buy one. Otherwise no sale.


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## Videodrome

ferrumpneuma said:


> Permission to use the hardware.


That is not reason enough, i already paid for the hardware. Tivo offers nothing with a monthly fee attached. What does the mini download or need to be updated for that price ,nothing, its simply theft. Sorry no thanks.


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## Arcady

I was going to buy a Mini, but I gave up waiting and added a third Premiere, which I put into my legacy $6.95/month spot.


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## Dan203

Videodrome said:


> That is not reason enough, i already paid for the hardware. Tivo offers nothing with a monthly fee attached. What does the mini download or need to be updated for that price ,nothing, its simply theft. Sorry no thanks.


What if it was released with a flat fee of $250 and no mention of a service fee? Is that still theft? The Ceton Echo, which does basically the same thing for HTPCs, costs $180. So $250 for the Mini isn't completely out of line.

The only reason they break it down to $100 for the hardware and $6/mo or $150/lifetime because that's how their business is structured and it looks better on their books. Plus it gives customers a lower cost of entry (>50% of TiVos subscribers pay for monthly service) if they're willing to pay $6/mo forever.

The Mini may be more expensive then you expected but it's hardly "theft".


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## Dan203

Arcady said:


> I was going to buy a Mini, but I gave up waiting and added a third Premiere, which I put into my legacy $6.95/month spot.


How did you pull that off? I thought they wouldn't allow a Premiere to pay the legacy $6.95/mo rate?


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## atmuscarella

Videodrome said:


> That is not reason enough, i already paid for the hardware. Tivo offers nothing with a monthly fee attached. What does the mini download or need to be updated for that price ,nothing, its simply theft. Sorry no thanks.


If you don't think a Mini is worth $250 or $100 + $6/mo for as long as you want to use it, that is your business, simple don't buy it. Accusing TiVo of theft because they won't sell you a Mini at the price you want to pay is just being an *ssho**.


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## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> How did you pull that off? I thought they wouldn't allow a Premiere to pay the legacy $6.95/mo rate?


I've had a Premiere on the $6.95 rate since the launch three years ago.

Sent from my HTC ReZound using Forum Runner


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## davezatz

I just was at Best Buy and saw the Big Jambox for $300. I'd say comparatively the TiVo Mini is a pretty decent deal at $250. Of course, you need a 4-tuner TiVo on the other end - and that ain't chump change.


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## CubsWin

mahohmei said:


> I will only buy one if/when it works with the TiVo Premiere two-tuner, since that's what we have now.


Same here. I would buy one for sure, but I have the original 2-tuner Premiere. I assume this is TiVo's way to try to force people to upgrade to newer Premiere's, but in my case that isn't going to happen.


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## emeril2k1

I've been wanting a mini since I first heard about it over a year ago. The 4 tuner requirement is a deal breaker. I don't need a live-tv stream. If I have to buy a 4-tuner unit I may as well just move the old unit to the bedroom and skip the mini.


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## bradleys

I am waiting for a refresh in Premier line. I suspect we will see a 6 tuner DVR with upgraded processor late this year or early next.

I will upgrade to a new DVR and three Minis at that time.


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## cmeinck

bradleys said:


> I am waiting for a refresh in Premier line. I suspect we will see a 6 tuner DVR with upgraded processor late this year or early next.
> 
> I will upgrade to a new DVR and three Minis at that time.


Same here. Buying a 4-tuner Premiere only to downgrade it to a 3-tuner (with TiVo Mini) doesn't make sense to me. When they go 6 tuner, I'll jump in on their whole house system.

They should have timed this better. TiVo Mini by itself is ok. If they released new hardware and created a set of attractive home bundles, I'd count myself among those who would be excited. I have (2) Premiere XL's and (1) Premiere. A 6-tuner plus 3 minis is my future system.


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## NotNowChief

I went ahead and ordered one.

It has the 30 day guarantee, if I don't like it, or am just unsure about it, it will only cost me return shipping.

When I see others saying they want to wait for the 6-tuner or whatever is next, I think they need to have their heads examined. We waited so long for the Mini, and if speculation for a 6-tuner box is at the end of this year or early next, there is no doubt that it is a loooooong way off. It is just not worthwhile to "wait" for a new product from TiVo.


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## cmeinck

NotNowChief said:


> I went ahead and ordered one.
> 
> It has the 30 day guarantee, if I don't like it, or am just unsure about it, it will only cost me return shipping.
> 
> When I see others saying they want to wait for the 6-tuner or whatever is next, I think they need to have their heads examined. We waited so long for the Mini, and if speculation for a 6-tuner box is at the end of this year or early next, there is no doubt that it is a loooooong way off. It is just not worthwhile to "wait" for a new product from TiVo.


The trouble with the mini is that for most, it requires new hardware. If I had a 4-tuner Premiere, I'd buy one. Having two XL's, I'd need at least an XL4 plus a mini, leaving me with 3 tuners for recording, rather than the 4 I have now. It also wouldn't allow me to transition to one box plus mini's in each room.

I'm not terribly resistant to the Mini as I am about having to pick up an XL4 that could be outdated in a year and isn't suitable for a true whole house solution.


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## rainwater

cmeinck said:


> The trouble with the mini is that for most, it requires new hardware.


The mini isn't designed for existing customers. I'm not sure why people with 2-tuner TiVos expect the Mini to be designed for them. Any live tv extender hardware is going to require a host with lots of tuners. Sure they could of added in support for setting up with no live tv support 2 tuner setups. But that isn't a good user experience. They are trying to sell a whole home system that just works.


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## cmeinck

rainwater said:


> The mini isn't designed for existing customers. I'm not sure why people with 2-tuner TiVos expect the Mini to be designed for them. Any live tv extender hardware is going to require a host with lots of tuners. Sure they could of added in support for setting up with no live tv support 2 tuner setups. But that isn't a good user experience. They are trying to sell a whole home system that just works.


I'm not expecting it to work with my hardware. I'm just stating that it's a less compelling product considering it requires you purchase the older Tivo Premiere 4/XL4. Even pared with that product, it doesn't provide for a typical whole home solution. At best, it's a two room solution and a poor one. If you own a 4, it makes sense. Not sure it makes sense for those without a 4 or those of us looking for a true whole home solution.


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## aaronwt

rainwater said:


> The mini isn't designed for existing customers. ..............................


Aren't most of the initial sales going to be to existing customers? I know I plan on getting one. I already have two elites and one two tuner Premiere.


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## rainwater

aaronwt said:


> Aren't most of the initial sales going to be to existing customers? I know I plan on getting one. I already have two elites and one two tuner Premiere.


I doubt they are expecting very many retail sales at launch. It's truly a MSO product. My guess later this year they will start pushing retail bundles that will make sense to try to attract new customers.


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## ducker

Hell, I'd love the mini If I was to use my 2 tuner premier unit... Why? To watch previously recorded material - and premium content material. I can't do that with my stream  The percent of Live content I watch in any given week must be less than 5% of my total viewing time.


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## kilcher

I've been asking for something like this for a long time. Would love to have one for our bedroom. $250 is way too much though. Most I'd pay is $150. So add me to the list of people waiting for refurbs to hit the internet. 

ETA: Also, the 2 tuner requirement is killing this as well.

Hopefully this will all be in the next TiVo box (for roughly the same price point). TiVo's coming out with too many boxes.


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## jfh3

kilcher said:


> I've been asking for something like this for a long time. Would love to have one for our bedroom. $250 is way too much though. Most I'd pay is $150. So add me to the list of people waiting for refurbs to hit the internet.
> 
> ETA: Also, the 2 tuner requirement is killing this as well.
> 
> Hopefully this will all be in the next TiVo box (for roughly the same price point). TiVo's coming out with too many boxes.


The Tivo Stream functionality is expected to be in the next generation of DVRs. Obviously, the function of the Mini could not be included in the DVR box.

I doubt very seriously that you will see any/many lifetimed minis on the secondary market for a long time. If there are any Mini's, I would expect them to have been those with monthly subs on them and I doubt any refurbs offered by Tivo will be discounted all that much.


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## jfh3

rainwater said:


> I doubt they are expecting very many retail sales at launch. It's truly a MSO product. My guess later this year they will start pushing retail bundles that will make sense to try to attract new customers.


+1


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## Videodrome

atmuscarella said:


> If you don't think a Mini is worth $250 or $100 + $6/mo for as long as you want to use it, that is your business, simple don't buy it. Accusing TiVo of theft because they won't sell you a Mini at the price you want to pay is just being an *ssho**.


The mini is worth at most $40, look at Ruku. Which is already compatible with Verizon and can do 100 more things . There is zero advantage to buying over keeping my present box. I think you being a fool. You could almost build an htpc for that , and just rent an addition cable card. BTW using curse words just diminishes your argument.


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## atmuscarella

Videodrome said:


> The mini is worth at most $40, look at Ruku. Which is already compatible with Verizon and can do 100 more things . There is zero advantage to buying over keeping my present box. I think you being a fool. You could almost build an htpc for that , and just rent an addition cable card. BTW using curse words just diminishes your argument.


My issue was with you accusing TiVo of theft because of the price, not if a Mini is worth what TiVo is selling it for or not.

In fact have no intention of arguing what a Mini is worth at all. What something is worth is a personal decision based on personal judgments. So if someone believes a Mini is worth $250 and is a good value they are correct, if someone else thinks a Mini is a bad value and not worth $250 they are also correct.


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## Dan203

NotNowChief said:


> When I see others saying they want to wait for the 6-tuner or whatever is next, I think they need to have their heads examined. We waited so long for the Mini, and if speculation for a 6-tuner box is at the end of this year or early next, there is no doubt that it is a loooooong way off. It is just not worthwhile to "wait" for a new product from TiVo.


I'm not sure your cynical outlook should be heeded. The same guy who told us that a "reliable source" told him the TiVo Mini would be available in March told us a 6 tuner unit would be available in September. He was right about the Mini, so we'll see if he was right about the 6 tuner box. But the recent TiVo FFC waiver request seems to indicate that some sort of new hardware is coming. It may or may not have 6 tuners, but it's almost guaranteed to have a better chip that can run the UI faster.


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## Videodrome

atmuscarella said:


> My issue was with you accusing TiVo of theft because of the price, not if a Mini is worth what TiVo is selling it for or not.
> 
> In fact have no intention of arguing what a Mini is worth at all. What something is worth is a personal decision based on personal judgments. So if someone believes a Mini is worth $250 and is a good value they are correct, if someone else thinks a Mini is a bad value and not worth $250 they are also correct.


So if you go to a gas station charging you $16 dollars a gallon, vs $3 what are you going to think ?


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## Tony Chick

I'd buy one for $100, equivalent to a Roku or Apple TV but I'm having a hard time figuring what I'd be paying a subscription for. I already pay a subscription for the XL4 which is basically for the guide info, paying an additional $5 per mo to access one of those "already paid for" tuners and already recorded programs is not sitting well with me. Its just a conceptual thing


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## Dan203

Why does everyone keep acting like they need some tangible reason, like guide data, to charge a subscription? Do you really think TiVo pays anywhere near $14.95/mo to Tribune for the guide data on your main TiVo? 

This is just how TiVo's business model is structured. They sell the hardware at, or below, cost and then make their money on the subscription. If you want a DVR with no "subscription" cost then get a Windows HTPC and a Ceton Echo. (it'll likely cost you more then a XL4/Mini combo)

And I still don't get the comparison to a Roku or Apple TV. Those are both internet streaming devices that only have a value if you subscribe to the services they offer. (i.e. Netflix, iTunes, etc...) The TiVo Mini's main purpose is to extend your TiVo viewing around the house without the need for another full blown TiVo. It's only real competition is a second TiVo, which costs more then double.


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## Dan203

Videodrome said:


> So if you go to a gas station charging you $16 dollars a gallon, vs $3 what are you going to think ?


Not quite the same thing. A better comparison would be an iPad vs a Kindle Fire. The iPad mini costs $320 the Kindle Fire HD is only $199. They serve basically the same purpose from the end user's perspective. So is it stealing that Apple charges $120 more? People may think Apple products are over priced, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain that they are stealing. They charge what they think they can get away with, and most of the time they are right. TiVo is doing the same thing. They are charging what they think the market will bear. If they're wrong then they will likely adjust the price later on. (they've adjusted the cost of the Premiere and service multiple times in the last 3 years)


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## jrtroo

Dan203 said:


> And I still don't get the comparison to a Roku or Apple TV.


This is strange to me as well. Heck- the mini does not even carry Netflix at launch!

I wonder if the trapezoidal shape was a minor way to differentiate their design from these other boxes (a la the Boxee).

I also don't get the worry about tuners. But, I also don't get why so many Tivo users watch live TV on a regular basis.


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## aaronwt

I like that . Apple is stealing from their customers


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## atmuscarella

Tony Chick said:


> I'd buy one for $100, equivalent to a Roku or Apple TV but I'm having a hard time figuring what I'd be paying a subscription for. I already pay a subscription for the XL4 which is basically for the guide info, paying an additional $5 per mo to access one of those "already paid for" tuners and already recorded programs is not sitting well with me. Its just a conceptual thing


First decide what you want.

Roku/Apple TV and a Mini are not interchangeable they do not do the same thing. The Primary functions of a Mini are not available on a Roku/Apple TV at all, the Mini does have some of the services available that a Roku/Apple TV has but is lacking access to many services and can not really replace a Roku or Apple TV (at least at this time hopefully the new hardware will allow access to more services over time).

If you decide you want what a Mini does then decide if it is worth $250 or the $99 and $6/mo too you or not.


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## compnurd

Dan203 said:


> Why does everyone keep acting like they need some tangible reason, like guide data, to charge a subscription? Do you really think TiVo pays anywhere near $14.95/mo to Tribune for the guide data on your main TiVo?
> 
> This is just how TiVo's business model is structured. They sell the hardware at, or below, cost and then make their money on the subscription. If you want a DVR with no "subscription" cost then get a Windows HTPC and a Ceton Echo. (it'll likely cost you more then a XL4/Mini combo)
> 
> And I still don't get the comparison to a Roku or Apple TV. Those are both internet streaming devices that only have a value if you subscribe to the services they offer. (i.e. Netflix, iTunes, etc...) The TiVo Mini's main purpose is to extend your TiVo viewing around the house without the need for another full blown TiVo. It's only real competition is a second TiVo, which costs more then double.


LOL I have been saying the same thing


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## moyekj

Really, still comments about the Roku? The day the Roku can stream recordings from my TiVos please let me know so I can join in on the price bashing comparisons. Until then, I don't get it.


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## Loach

moyekj said:


> Really, still comments about the Roku? The day the Roku can stream recordings from my TiVos please let me know so I can join in on the price bashing comparisons. Until then, I don't get it.


And let me know when the Roku can hijack one of my tuners for live TV as well.


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## atmuscarella

Videodrome said:


> So if you go to a gas station charging you $16 dollars a gallon, vs $3 what are you going to think ?


Well if someone is selling $3 gas and it is the same as the $16 gas I would buy the $3 gas.

I am not sure what that has to do with a Mini there is no identical/interchangeable products to compare it's cost to. It is not like a person can just buy some other brand of DVR extender and use it. The Mini is part of a TiVo whole home DVR system it is not a stand alone device so the only real way evaluate it's cost is to compare it to other ways of getting the same or similar whole home DVR functionality. You can do that with other TiVo equipment (multiple DVRs), building a HTPC setup with extenders, or renting it from your cable provider, if available.


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## Loach

I've been paying $8 a month for a plain HD cable box in my main family room for the last 8 years that didn't even extend my DVR system from the basement. 

$8 times 96 months = $768. I could have bought 3 lifetime Minis for that. Heck, I think I may have just talked myself into ordering a lifetime Mini at list price and not waiting for a discount or bundle. I can still wait for a discount on my 2nd and 3rd Minis I guess.


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## Tony Chick

I'm not saying a Mini and Roku are equivalent functionally, but the fact is Roku can sell their top-of-the-line box for $99 and make a profit without subscriptions, and it has pretty much the same hardware configuration minus MoCA but plus WiFi. I just don't see that they are selling this at a loss requiring a sub to recoup their cost. They are charging the $5 just because they can.


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## Dan203

Tony Chick said:


> I'm not saying a Mini and Roku are equivalent functionally, but the fact is Roku can sell their top-of-the-line box for $99 and make a profit without subscriptions, and it has pretty much the same hardware configuration minus MoCA but plus WiFi. I just don't see that they are selling this at a loss requiring a sub to recoup their cost. They are charging the $5 just because they can.


Roku doesn't make money on the hardware. They have profit sharing deals with all the services offer via the device. TiVo doesn't have that business model so they charge you the service fee directly instead.

Edit: To use a Roku you'd have to, at minimum, subscribe to at least one of their services right? Netflix, Hulu, etc... Those all cost at least $7/mo. So what's the difference?


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## magnus

Dan203 said:


> Roku doesn't make money on the hardware. They have profit sharing deals with all the services offer via the device. TiVo doesn't have that business model so they charge you the service fee directly instead.
> 
> Edit: To use a Roku you'd have to, at minimum, subscribe to at least one of their services right? Netflix, Hulu, etc... Those all cost at least $7/mo. So what's the difference?


Nope, you could use any number of free channels only, if you wanted to. For example, Crackle is a free channel and has pretty good stuff on it. You could also use Amazon instant video or Vudu, assuming that you purchase videos through them.


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## Videodrome

Tony Chick said:


> I'm not saying a Mini and Roku are equivalent functionally, but the fact is Roku can sell their top-of-the-line box for $99 and make a profit without subscriptions, and it has pretty much the same hardware configuration minus MoCA but plus WiFi. I just don't see that they are selling this at a loss requiring a sub to recoup their cost. They are charging the $5 just because they can.


exactly, and what does the mini do, just extends recorded programing. Roku probably could have an app , or ipad that does the same thing, Hence mini is worthless.


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## moyekj

Videodrome said:


> exactly, and what does the mini do, just extends recorded programing. Roku probably could have an app , or ipad that does the same thing, Hence mini is worthless.


 Worthless to you, sure. For me it's the opposite - Roku is worthless and Mini has value for what I want. Since I see very little use for a Roku even $50 is too much for it.


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## compnurd

Videodrome said:


> exactly, and what does the mini do, just extends recorded programing. Roku probably could have an app , or ipad that does the same thing, Hence mini is worthless.


fine then why are you posting here? troll on


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## compnurd

moyekj said:


> Worthless to you, sure. For me it's the opposite - Roku is worthless and Mini has value for what I want. Since I see very little use for a Roku even $50 is too much for it.


+100


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## magnus

I see no use in the Mini not being a hybrid of what it is and a Roku. The Mini has so much potential and Tivo really should get more channels of content for it. Crackle, Amazon Instant, HBO, and more. At that point, then it would make a lot more sense to charge what they are for it. I think that's where I and others are coming from on this. 

Not to mention that it does not work on the 2 tuner Premiere. I really don't think there is a technical reason why it won't work. The Stream does not seem to have a problem with the hardware of the 2 tuner Premiere.


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## lessd

magnus said:


> I see no use in the Mini not being a hybrid of what it is and a Roku. The Mini has so much potential and Tivo really should get more channels of content for it. Crackle, Amazon Instant, HBO, and more. At that point, then it would make a lot more sense to charge what they are for it. I think that's where I and others are coming from on this.
> 
> Not to mention that it does not work on the 2 tuner Premiere. I really don't think there is a technical reason why it won't work. The Stream does not seem to have a problem with the hardware of the 2 tuner Premiere.


TiVo, for reasons we don't know, set up the Mini to be used only if the customer had at least one TP-4, in the future TiVo may add more compatibility to the Mini, as one poster said that the software/firmware in the Mini can and is updateable.


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## jfh3

Videodrome said:


> Hence mini is worthless.


Then don't buy one.

But realize that not everyone shares your assessment.


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## Dan203

magnus said:


> I see no use in the Mini not being a hybrid of what it is and a Roku. The Mini has so much potential and Tivo really should get more channels of content for it. Crackle, Amazon Instant, HBO, and more. At that point, then it would make a lot more sense to charge what they are for it. I think that's where I and others are coming from on this.
> 
> Not to mention that it does not work on the 2 tuner Premiere. I really don't think there is a technical reason why it won't work. The Stream does not seem to have a problem with the hardware of the 2 tuner Premiere.


The chip they use in the Mini runs Adobe AIR apps, just like the Samsung smart TVs, so there is really no technical reason the Mini couldn't run all those apps. I think this is likely a business decision. Maybe TiVo is squeezing them for profit sharing deals or maybe TiVo's less then friendly developer agreement is scarring developers away. We really don't know.

However just because the Mini can do these things doesn't mean that's what it's for. It's main purpose it to stream shows from your TiVo to another room. As of right now you have two alternatives to accomplish that...

1) A second TiVo DVR which at minimum would cost $500

2) A TiVo Stream, an iOS device and Apple TV with AirPlay. Assuming you already have the iOS device then the Stream + ATV is $230. Not to mention you'll get degraded quality, a degraded trick play experience and you'll have to leave your iOS device running to feed the ATV via AirPlay. Hardly an ideal solution.

Now I'm sure there are a lot of people who "want" the Mini to be cheaper or provide more functionality, but it is what it is and compared to the current alternatives the price really isn't that bad.


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## Kingpcgeek

My Roku 3 arrived today and my new Mini shipped today. The Roku 3 will be in the family room next to my Elite and will be used for Amazon Prime and HBO Go.

The Mini will be moved around the house as needed, living room, guest room and patio. I'll be taking two $8.50/month cable boxes back to Cox when the Mini arrives.


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## steve614

cmeinck said:


> The trouble with the mini is that for most, it requires new hardware. If I had a 4-tuner Premiere, I'd buy one. Having two XL's, I'd need at least an XL4 plus a mini, leaving me with 3 tuners for recording, rather than the 4 I have now.


Just to point out... even if the Mini worked with 2 tuner Premieres, you'd still be left with 3 tuners, as the Mini would have to "steal" a tuner from one of your Premiere XL's.


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## buscuitboy

I was curious and waiting to see what these minis will offer. Tempted to get one of these minis now, but since they don't currently work with 2-Tuner Premieres (I have two) and require at least a 4-Tuner Premiere, I don't think I'm gonna be on board at this point since I would have to spend a lot on new equipment to get this going the way I wanted. If/when they can work with 2 tuner Premieres (rumored to be able to in the future), I will then reconsider.

Even if I got a 4-tuner Premiere, I'm also a little discouraged that it locks down a tuner from that unit. Maybe this will change in the future though. I was looking for some inexpensive solutions for a basement rec room and spare bedroom that aren't heavily used. These minis seemed like they could possibly solve that issue, but I may just go another route; $99 lifetime a Series3 box I have and just pay the $1.50/month cable card fee for it. It would then essentially be a cheap cable box (with its own tuner) for occasional viewing as well as be used for more recording storage for my whole network (that can then be off-loaded/transferred to my Premieres as needed). 

I guess everyone's situation is different & I may even still look into some Ceton/SiliconDust whole home solutions. I may also reconsider all of this when TiVo possibly comes out with a Series 5 that presumably has 6 tuners (& works with minis). Will see.


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## Videodrome

compnurd said:


> fine then why are you posting here? troll on


I was unaware that criticism of Tivo, was not permitted here. Maybe it should be posted, praise only forums. Worship on.


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## trip1eX

A better price comparison is to the Ceton Echo WMC extender which is asked to do the same thing. It is $180 but has a crappy remote control, no Moca and no outputs besides HDMI. 

So it isn't outrageously priced. It is in-line with Tivo's other price points.

Still these things should only get much cheaper. A Mini is all silicon.


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## compnurd

I think we need to take the speed with the mini with a grain of salt for right now.. it is doing half the tasks the Premiere is probably


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## atmuscarella

compnurd said:


> I think we need to take the speed with the mini with a grain of salt for right now.. it is doing half the tasks the Premiere is probably


Staining my memory but I believe the chip in the Mini is a companion chip to another chip that would be the new chip in an updated DVR. So I don't expect we will see a DVR with the same chip that is in the Mini. But it shouldn't take much to improve on the Premiere, after all that chip in the Premiere is over 3 years old, anything developed in the last year should be a significant upgrade.

The BCM7418 is what is in a Mini forgot what others have posted would be in a new DVR.


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## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> Staining my memory but I believe the chip in the Mini is a companion chip to another chip that would be the new chip in an updated DVR. So I don't expect we will see a DVR with the same chip that is in the Mini. But it shouldn't take much to improve on the Premiere, after all that chip in the Premiere is over 3 years old, anything developed in the last year should be a significant upgrade.
> 
> The BCM7418 is what is in a Mini forgot what others have posted would be in a new DVR.


Is the BCM7425 the companion chip?

It is the chip that is supposed to be in the Pace six tuner box and is also in the the Dish Hopper.

Although I see it only has dual transcoding capabilities. Can't the TiVo Stream transcode four concurrent streams?


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## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> Is the BCM7425 the companion chip?
> 
> It is the chip that is supposed to be in the Pace six tuner box and is also in the the Dish Hopper.


Yeah if I remember correctly the 7418 is a companion chip to the 7425 based on comments over on zatznotfunny.


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## L David Matheny

Videodrome said:


> I was unaware that criticism of Tivo, was not permitted here. Maybe it should be posted, praise only forums. Worship on.


Criticism of TiVo is welcome here, and in fact it's common. But most critics are hoping to prod TiVo into making good products better. If someone sees no good in TiVo's products and comes here only to bash them, it's natural to question their motives for hanging out here at all. That would be troll-like behavior.


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## compnurd

aaronwt said:


> Is the BCM7425 the companion chip?
> 
> It is the chip that is supposed to be in the Pace six tuner box and is also in the the Dish Hopper.
> 
> Although I see it only has dual transcoding capabilities. Can't the TiVo Stream transcode four concurrent streams?


From a performance perspective.. the CPU in the Premiere should be able to run the HDUI with great speed. I question the coding and suspect it may get faster as they improve it


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## slowbiscuit

L David Matheny said:


> Criticism of TiVo is welcome here, and in fact it's common. But most critics are hoping to prod TiVo into making good products better. If someone sees no good in TiVo's products and comes here only to bash them, it's natural to question their motives for hanging out here at all. That would be troll-like behavior.


Or accuse them of stealing money by charging a fee, which is ridiculous. That's trolling.


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## innocentfreak

compnurd said:


> From a performance perspective.. the CPU in the Premiere should be able to run the HDUI with great speed. I question the coding and suspect it may get faster as they improve it


The current chip in the Premiere doesn't even support the recommended minimum requirements of Air.


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## Tony Chick

I for one am not critical of the Mini as a piece of technology, I'm critical of the need & justification for a subscription. For my part I planned to buy one to use outside in the pool gazebo for the summer months where the environment is too extreme to use my 2-tuner Premiere and it would be stored along with that TV for the other 6 months making a year-round subscription financially unattractive.

If you say they can't sell it at a profit for $100 then fine, offer it for what they can make a profit at. As it is if I keep it for 5 years it will cost me $400, a bit much for a part-time unit


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## aaronwt

Tony Chick said:


> I for one am not critical of the Mini as a piece of technology, I'm critical of the need & justification for a subscription. For my part I planned to buy one to use outside in the pool gazebo for the summer months where the environment is too extreme to use my 2-tuner Premiere and it would be stored along with that TV for the other 6 months making a year-round subscription financially unattractive.
> 
> If you say they can't sell it at a profit for $100 then fine, offer it for what they can make a profit at. As it is if I keep it for 5 years it will cost me $400, a bit much for a part-time unit


Just pay for liftime and only pay $250. Then if you decide later you want something else, you can still sell it and recoup most of the cost.


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## moyekj

innocentfreak said:


> The current chip in the Premiere doesn't even support the recommended minimum requirements of Air.


 That plus the development program documented fact that only 50% of CPU resources are reserved for Flash Air in the first place (keeping enough resources to ensure recordings don't have problems).


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## atmuscarella

Tony Chick said:


> I for one am not critical of the Mini as a piece of technology, I'm critical of the need & justification for a subscription. For my part I planned to buy one to use outside in the pool gazebo for the summer months where the environment is too extreme to use my 2-tuner Premiere and it would be stored along with that TV for the other 6 months making a year-round subscription financially unattractive.
> 
> If you say they can't sell it at a profit for $100 then fine, offer it for what they can make a profit at. As it is if I keep it for 5 years it will cost me $400, a bit much for a part-time unit


I honestly can not see how anyone would think paying $100 plus $6/mo is better than just paying $250 up front. Keep life simple, if you can not justify paying $250 for a Mini don't buy one.

How TiVo gets to that number (by adding a Subscription fee to hardware costs versus just saying $250 is the price) is really irrelevant. Some who follow TiVo's stock expect the reason they are doing it that way is because of how they will show subscriber numbers in their quarterly reports, which again is irrelevant to customers.

As I have said in other posts I am not defending the $250 as being a good price. It is what it is and each person will have to decide if what they get with a Mini is worth the cost or not. The one thing I will say is that pretty much all of us want the stuff we buy to be better and cheaper than it actually is so no surprise on my part that some (many/all?) people would like the Mini's price to be less.


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## brholl

Tony Chick said:


> I for one am not critical of the Mini as a piece of technology, I'm critical of the need & justification for a subscription. For my part I planned to buy one to use outside in the pool gazebo for the summer months where the environment is too extreme to use my 2-tuner Premiere and it would be stored along with that TV for the other 6 months making a year-round subscription financially unattractive.
> 
> If you say they can't sell it at a profit for $100 then fine, offer it for what they can make a profit at. As it is if I keep it for 5 years it will cost me $400, a bit much for a part-time unit


I see it from a different perspective. I think it makes sense that they charge money for the box and a subscription from a business aspect. Take me for example. I have one TiVo Preimere 4. Because of the monthly/lifetime cost I was hesitant to buy another TiVo to put in my bedroom but then the Mini came out. I am going to save a lot of money buying a Mini with lifetime subscription. The subscription fee is now $5.99 instead of $10 something with the multi service discount. I also do not have to pay an extra outlet fee or rent a box from Comcast anymore. In the long run this will be cheaper than having no version TiVo in my bedroom.

In some ways releasing the Mini is more risky to TiVo. People will be buying lifetime subscriptions on the Mini (meaning no additional income for TiVo after a few years) or else they'll pay the monthly subscription which is less expensive than a Premiere subscription. Granted, this may push people to get that second box which may make up for less multi-Premiere households. Overall, I think TiVo is now more competitive as a whole-home DVR solution compared to cable providers or other technology.


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## Dan203

Tony Chick said:


> If you say they can't sell it at a profit for $100 then fine, offer it for what they can make a profit at. As it is if I keep it for 5 years it will cost me $400, a bit much for a part-time unit


They do, it's $250 that way. The monthly subscription option is just a way to offer a lower cost of entry. Kind of like how you can get an XBox for $100 as long as you commit to 2 years of XBox Live. Or how you can get a $800 iPhone for $200 if you commit to 2 years of cell service. Except that with the TiVo Mini the commitment period is only a year.


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## lessd

Dan203 said:


> They do, it's $250 that way. The monthly subscription option is just a way to offer a lower cost of entry. Kind of like how you can get an XBox for $100 as long as you commit to 2 years of XBox Live. Or how you can get a $800 iPhone for $200 if you commit to 2 years of cell service. Except that with the TiVo Mini the commitment period is only a year.


Another thing about the price is the retail mark up, any retail outlet would make more gross on selling a $250 item than a $99 item so TiVo only pays the mark up on $99 and keeps the full $150 sub money or the $5.99/month.
I don't know of any other business plan like TiVo, even the cell phone co. do not offer lifetime service on a new phone, maybe other can think of other business models that offers the customer the choice to purchase the hardware and have a choice of Lifetime use or monthly service, Slingbox has only a full upfront cost and "free service" for the life of the box, Windows media center has the same full upfront cost (in many cases it is $0) and Lifetime service for free. MSO only rent their equipment as far as I know. (I know that you can purchase some small accessories from them like cable amps etc.)


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## Videodrome

L David Matheny said:


> Criticism of TiVo is welcome here, and in fact it's common. But most critics are hoping to prod TiVo into making good products better. If someone sees no good in TiVo's products and comes here only to bash them, it's natural to question their motives for hanging out here at all. That would be troll-like behavior.


No i belong to alot of other forums, and this usually is the most close minded of them all. Surprise price is a something might make this product better. I guess that wasn't obvious enough . Really this forum should be called orthodox tivo users only. On 2 other boards i go to people couldn't understand or advocate the monthly fee. Continue with your worship.


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## Videodrome

lessd said:


> Another thing about the price is the retail mark up, any retail outlet would make more gross on selling a $250 item than a $99 item so TiVo only pays the mark up on $99 and keeps the full $150 sub money or the $5.99/month.
> I don't know of any other business plan like TiVo, even the cell phone co. do not offer lifetime service on a new phone, maybe other can think of other business models that offers the customer the choice to purchase the hardware and have a choice of Lifetime use or monthly service, Slingbox has only a full upfront cost and "free service" for the life of the box, Windows media center has the same full upfront cost (in many cases it is $0) and Lifetime service for free. MSO only rent their equipment as far as I know. (I know that you can purchase some small accessories from them like cable amps etc.)


Cell phone is a bad comparison , because you can move to another provider and it still works. You can move an ATT phone to Tmobile. Tivo doesnt offer lifetime service on tivo units, if it breaks its your problem. Cell phone companies usually maintain the cell phone thru a contact. There is no contact with tivo. Tivo provides nothing, there are using your power, your network. If they changed the wording from Subscribe to Rent, and Purchase, that would make sense, but they arent. So hence many are asking questions.


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## Dan203

It's not worship it's logical understanding!

TiVo Mini != Roku no matter how similar they are from a hardware perspective. The companies have different business models and the boxes have different functionality. Some people here believe that the singular ability to stream recordings from your primary TiVo to another room is worth the $250. You obviously do not, and that's fine. But calling it "stealing" is ignorant. It's capitalism. They can choose to charge whatever they want and we can choose to buy or not. If sales don't meet expectations then TiVo will likely drop the price to compensate. That's how the free market works.

I'm sure we would all love it if the Mini was $50 with no fee. But it is what it is and the only vote you get is with your wallet.


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## Dan203

Videodrome said:


> Cell phone is a bad comparison , because you can move to another provider and it still works. You can move an ATT phone to Tmobile. Tivo doesnt offer lifetime service on tivo units, if it breaks its your problem. Cell phone companies usually maintain the cell phone thru a contact. There is no contact with tivo. Tivo provides nothing, there are using your power, your network. If they changed the wording from Subscribe to Rent, and Purchase, that would make sense, but they arent. So hence many are asking questions.


Well that's not true! Most cell phones are carrier locked. And most carries wont unlock them until you complete the original commitment period or pay a hefty early termination fee. In addition some carriers use different technologies which make it impossible to switch service providers. (i.e. can't use an AT&T iPhone with Sprint even if it's unlocked)

Also cell phones have standard warranties just like all electronics. 90 days full, 1 year parts. Cell providers will sell you a maintenance plan for a monthly fee, but it's not part of the deal. TiVo will do the same thing. For $30 they'll sell you a 3 year warranty that includes transfer of the lifetime service to a replacement unit. In fact they take it one step further and will actually honor in store warranties. So if you buy a warranty from Best Buy and they replace a TiVo/Mini under that warranty TiVo will transfer your lifetime service to the new box. That is completely above and beyond on their part.

See this post seems to shift your opinion from displeasure of the price of the Mini to a general disdain for TiVo as a company. If you don't like the TiVo business model then don't buy into it. You have other options. (i.e. HTPC or provider supplied DVR)


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## slowbiscuit

Videodrome said:


> No i belong to alot of other forums, and this usually is the most close minded of them all. Surprise price is a something might make this product better. I guess that wasn't obvious enough . Really this forum should be called orthodox tivo users only. On 2 other boards i go to people couldn't understand or advocate the monthly fee. Continue with your worship.


This forum has many folks that are happy Tivo users but want them to do better (and regularly post here about the issues), it's not just fanboys. Once you look past that minority you'll see that. There's also plenty here that are not happy with Tivo and regularly vent about it.


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## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> Staining my memory but I believe the chip in the Mini is a companion chip to another chip that would be the new chip in an updated DVR. So I don't expect we will see a DVR with the same chip that is in the Mini. But it shouldn't take much to improve on the Premiere, after all that chip in the Premiere is over 3 years old, anything developed in the last year should be a significant upgrade.
> 
> The BCM7418 is what is in a Mini forgot what others have posted would be in a new DVR.


Is the chip capable of 1080P60 output. I just setup my Mini and I see for the resolution choices it still shows 1080P24 pass through. So is this just shown to keep it inline with what the Premiere can do for 1080P output?


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## sbiller

aaronwt said:


> Is the chip capable of 1080P60 output. I just setup my Mini and I see for the resolution choices it still shows 1080P24 pass through. So is this just shown to keep it inline with what the Premiere can do for 1080P output?


Good question. I don't think I've ever heard it addressed.


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## Dan203

Does anyone even use 1080p/60? I know some shows are shot at 1080p/60 these days, but AFAIK they're not actually broadcast anywhere at that combo. BluRay and all the online services are 1080p/24 max


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## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> Does anyone even use 1080p/60? I know some shows are shot at 1080p/60 these days, but AFAIK they're not actually broadcast anywhere at that combo. BluRay and all the online services are 1080p/24 max


I don't mean actual content in 1080P60, but to output it at 1080P60 like most devices do. If the TiVo can scale content to 1080P60 like other devices, then there might be less issues with resolutions changes in Netflix. Depending on what choices are selected for the output resolution.


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## Dan203

But why would you want your 1080p/24 content converted to 60fps? It's not an even multiple which means the frame rate conversion will either have to use interpolation or a 2:3 pulldown type pattern. Neither one is really desirable.


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## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> But why would you want your 1080p/24 content converted to 60fps? It's not an even multiple which means the frame rate conversion will either have to use interpolation or a 2:3 pulldown type pattern. Neither one is really desirable.


I typically use 24P but only because of my external scaler. I use two DLP sets and a 60 Hz LCD so either my scaler applies 3:2 pulldown, the TV, or the device. But I'll take the DLP over a 120, 240, or 480 LCD since the DLP is still a couple of orders of magnitude faster than an LCD. I don't have a problem with judder since I've lived with it for decades already


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## HarperVision

24 is best used for film based sources (movies) and 60 is best for video based (TV).

Edit: but of course a lot of TV is now filmed at 24Hz as well.


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## wgc

I've been wanting to buy a "Tivo Mini" for years now. All I want is something small, quiet and relatively unobtrusive, with the great TiVo interface, and access to all my recordings. This is a perfect fit for what we're looking for.

- I haven't had much of a gadget budget for a few years since having kids, but I'll make the exception for this.
- I can no longer afford to be an early adopter, but I'll make the exception for this.
- $250 does seem excessive, but I'll bite.

However I only have a two-tuner Premier :-( I'll even pay that excessive cost as an early adopter (taking food out of the mouths of my babies ;-) ) for recordings only, if I can't have streaming (who watches live TV?). .... Bummer.

Hopefully TiVo will change their position when they release the dynamic tuner allocation feature.


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## jmpage2

Tony Chick said:


> I for one am not critical of the Mini as a piece of technology, I'm critical of the need & justification for a subscription. For my part I planned to buy one to use outside in the pool gazebo for the summer months where the environment is too extreme to use my 2-tuner Premiere and it would be stored along with that TV for the other 6 months making a year-round subscription financially unattractive.
> 
> If you say they can't sell it at a profit for $100 then fine, offer it for what they can make a profit at. As it is if I keep it for 5 years it will cost me $400, a bit much for a part-time unit


Or as others said, you can break out a calculator and realize that you pay the "one time" $250 for the unit + lifetime and then use it in various places around the house when you like. If you ever want to retire the unit, you will probably get $150-$200 for it used with lifetime service so your actual "out of pocket" cost over the span of a few years will be pretty minimal.


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