# Tivo/Dish litigation summary



## deathopie (Jul 16, 2010)

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=En_Banc

Good summary of where we are in the Tivo lawsuit against Dish Network. Charlie Ergren connected on a Hail Mary to get this En Banc review, but this is his last chance before he forks over hundreds of millions to Tivo. It's been dragging through the courts for years. What a joke. But it seems like it's all finally coming to an end.

Any other investors out there? Might be a good time to get in if you're not.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

deathopie said:


> Any other investors out there? Might be a good time to get in if you're not.


I didn't think stock talk is allowed on TCF. The status of tivo's lawsuit against Dish/Echostar is public knowledge and has been widely reported. To some extent it's already included in the price of the stock.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

lew said:


> I didn't think stock talk is allowed on TCF. The status of tivo's lawsuit against Dish/Echostar is public knowledge and has been widely reported. To some extent it's already included in the price of the stock.


I think stock talk is not good for this forum, but discussion of the lawsuit is interesting. The link posted is to a new website that for the first time makes all the interesting legal documents available to us mere mortals and without expensive page copy costs. I have been following this for a while now, and this is the first time I have seen most of the information on that page, such as the briefs from interested third parties.

The time line is also interesting as it really lays out how long this has been going on and how big companies with deep pockets can use the legal system to their own competitive advantage.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumrules.html


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Dish connected on a Hail Mary pass that gave them a first down on the 40 yard line. They tried an option play to the Patent office but were stopped at the line of scrimmage.

Then they got called for delay of game  and it is 3rd and 15 - so do they get a first down here or get sacked for 2 billion?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Dish connected on a Hail Mary pass that gave them a first down on the 40 yard line. They tried an option play to the Patent office but were stopped at the line of scrimmage.
> 
> Then they got called for delay of game  and it is 3rd and 15 - so do they get a first down here or get sacked for 2 billion?


And even then, Dish is still behind three touchdowns. They're only still playing in hopes of getting the score to something respectable.

Of course the problem with the football analogy is that there is no clock to run out. Dish will be allowed to continue running plays until a referee finally takes the ball away and says, "Face it, you've lost - pay up on the bet you made."

The surprising thing about the link in the OP's post is that it's effectively part of TiVo's web site. They're essentially hanging the IP thief by the town gate for everyone to see. It's a very ballsy thing to do a week before the en banc review. I don't think I've ever seen a company do such a thing.


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## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

nrc said:


> The surprising thing about the link in the OP's post is that it's effectively part of TiVo's web site. They're essentially hanging the IP thief by the town gate for everyone to see. It's a very ballsy thing to do a week before the en banc review. I don't think I've ever seen a company do such a thing.


It isn't "effectively part" .. it is "part" .. As can be seen more obviously by this URL: http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=En_Banc

I think its perfectly reasonable for TiVo to post a summary of the situation on its website for its investors to read. I don't see it affecting the process at all.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Website shows PROOF POSITIVE that Echostar is Pure evil.
-Microsoft filed brief in favor of echostar.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> Website shows PROOF POSITIVE that Echostar is Pure evil.
> -Microsoft filed brief in favor of echostar.


That's because Microsoft knows full, full well that Microsoft media center infringes TiVo patents. If any firm should know patent ummmmm, strategy, it's Microsoft who just threatened some Android phone makers (but not Google) over supposed Microsoft patents in Linux.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

nrc said:


> And even then, Dish is still behind three touchdowns. They're only still playing in hopes of getting the score to something respectable.
> 
> Of course the problem with the football analogy is that there is no clock to run out. Dish will be allowed to continue running plays until a referee finally takes the ball away and says, "Face it, you've lost - pay up on the bet you made."


it is more like a bare knuckle brawl with the last man standing taking the win

People don't like it when a 300 pounder takes on a 100 pounder, but when the 100 pounder starts to win then it gets interesting


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## dstoffa (Dec 14, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> Website shows PROOF POSITIVE that Echostar is Pure evil.
> -Microsoft filed brief in favor of echostar.


It doesn't change the bottom line. Until Tivo can generate and sustain positive cash flow over time, all that lawsuit money does is buy them time.

Now, if Tivo is smart, they should REALLY consider a license fee per month for each E* DVR in service instead of a lump sum settlement.

Cheers!
-Doug


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

dstoffa said:


> ...Now, if Tivo is smart, they should REALLY consider a license fee per month for each E* DVR in service instead of a lump sum settlement.


I don't know how lucrative that would actually be if E* upgrades/replaces infringing DVRs with DVRs that don't use TiVo technology.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

dstoffa said:


> Now, if Tivo is smart, they should REALLY consider a license fee per month for each E* DVR in service instead of a lump sum settlement.


That appears to be what TiVo has been holding out for from day one and what Echostar refuses to accept.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Echostar claims they would lose $200 million per month if they have to turn off all DVRs, but the court has only awarded Tivo a total of $377 million over a nearly 7 year period. That's a cost of $4.5 million per month to save losing $200 million per month. Seems like a slap on the wrist. What a bargain for Echostar even if they lose.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dstoffa said:


> Now, if Tivo is smart, they should REALLY consider a license fee per month for each E* DVR in service instead of a lump sum settlement.


wow, why has TiVo not considered that yet


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## deathopie (Jul 16, 2010)

The 300 million damages can and likely will be tripled by the judge whose injunction they violated, leading to the contempt charges. Additionally, that's all for past damages. Going forward Dish could be forced to sign a royalty rate above market value to allow those box to continue to be used. There's still litigation out there against other companies that are waiting for the outcome of this one (Verizon and AT+T)


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

deathopie said:


> The 300 million damages can and likely will be tripled by the judge whose injunction they violated, leading to the contempt charges.


The $377 million figure includes the additional $200 million in damages and
sanctions due to EchoStars flouting of a court order in September 2009. Even if it is tripled, that's $13.5 million per month to save a loss of $200 million per month.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> The $377 million figure includes the additional $200 million in damages and
> sanctions due to EchoStars flouting of a court order in September 2009. Even if it is tripled, that's $13.5 million per month to save a loss of $200 million per month.


so what you are saying is that Ergen and DISH could have easily built a business model that included giving TiVo their fair due from the get go and avoided all the tax payer money spent so TiVo could finally get its fair due. Seems like another good reason to sock DISH for 2 billion


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

The DISH customers will be the ones who ultimately pay.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Here's an interesting link with a 3rd party view of the testimony at the en banc hearing the other day.

Sounds like it could go either way.

http://ipwatchdog.com/2010/11/11/federal-circuit-hears-tivo-v-dish-oral-arguments-en-banc/id=13288/

Seems like Tivo got hammered, and that a judge or 2 may be incompetent and dont understand the law correctly according to the authors opinion. On the flip side he seems to think Tivo has the better case.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> Here's an interesting link with a 3rd party view of the testimony at the en banc hearing the other day.
> 
> Sounds like it could go either way.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link - that writer really made it far easier to follow this case then anything else I have seen
as to who might win
He also made the points that the judges might have been asking stupid sounding questions to try and discover more facts or play Devil's advocate.
Also that it is hard to ever determine the outcome based on how the oral arguments went or who was badgered the most.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

yeah- a patent lawyer who writes in English so we can understand. I wish I had stumbled on that site earlier- looks like he's written several articles about the case as it's been progressing.


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## mbates73 (Nov 4, 2010)

Great summary from Gene Quinn @ IPWatchdog. One of his statements is one that I feel strongly about: ".. this all comes down to judicial efficiency ..".

To the layman, it appears there is no incentive for anyone to close this case except TiVo and their investors. TiVo lawyers are getting paid, EchoStar lawyers are getting paid and the judges and staff are getting paid. The more it drags on, the more all these people are in the news - seems like a group of self-gratifying fools to me. 

My $.02


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

That's hilarious and the sad truth. This case is a career for some folks.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

A criminal who received the death penalty could have exhausted all their appeals faster than this case.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

What is the record for litigation on a patent? How many years or decades?


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

acvthree said:


> What is the record for litigation on a patent? How many years or decades?


i think that would probably be the Jarndyce case ...


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> i think that would probably be the Jarndyce case ...


As an outcome here for Tivo, that would be pretty bleak. How's the likelihood of such a protracted proceeding, with no significant monetary benefit resulting?


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

I should have been more specific.

Does anyone know what was the longest non-fictional court case?


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