# Yet another Roamio reboot issue



## ManOfSteele (Jul 23, 2003)

In doing a forum search I see there have been several people with Roamio reboot issues. I've had my Roamio for about two months and did not have a single issue until a week or so. Since then, the Roamio has been rebooting frequently, although primarily when streaming content via a Mini. I've been working with TiVo Support on the problem and it isn't looking good. Meaning that they had me check signal strengths and other diagnostics, change cables, etc., all to no avail. They don't really seem to know what the problem is. Originally I thought the problem was occurring on a specific Mini and I swapped it out for another Mini from another room but that did not help. Within a short period of time while watching TV on the "new" Mini the Roamio rebooted. 

I've since seen reboots occur while watching TV from three different Minis in three different rooms (although it definitely happens more frequently it seems from one specific Mini). I've also observed the Roamio rebooting while no active streaming from a Mini was occurring, once at 2:00 am and once yesterday around 10:00 am. 

In the six years I owned my TiVoHD I never had a single unexpected reboot, so although I do like the Roamio, this issue has soured things a bit. I'm not convinced that it's a hardware problem, although I am puzzled why the reboots have only just started after two months from flawless service. I'd hate to return my Roamio for servicing (and lose 300 hours of recorded content) if the replacement has the same reboot issue.

Does anyone have any similar recent experience with their Roamio/Minis? Are there any system logs I can download after a reboot occurs that might shed some light on what's causing the reboots?

Peter


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

Its not hardware. I've seen them on the Roamio and multiple Minis. For me they started well before 20.4.1. I believe this is known issue. As fyi, TiVoMargret indicated there were reboot issues in February related to service calls. As such, I'd suggest holding on to your unit until TiVo sorts things out.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Random reboots are completely unacceptable. I'm thankful that my Roamio has yet to begin exhibiting this behavior, but TiVo has to fix this problem immediately. My crappy TWC DVR never experienced random reboots, and there is really no good reason why a Roamio should be experiencing them.


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## ManOfSteele (Jul 23, 2003)

One thing I forgot to mention was that the reboots started the same day I replaced the TV the Roamio was hooked to with a new "smart TV" (by Samsung). Within the hour after it was hooked up the Roamio started exhibiting this reboot problem. I've disabled the HDMI-CEC feature of the TV, as I've heard that can cause problems, but that did not solve the problem. I also tried removing the HDMI cable entirely for a period and during that time there were no reboots, but I wouldn't call the test conclusive because hours can pass between reboots so I may have just got lucky.

Still, since the reboot problem started with the new TV being installed, it sure makes me think it's somehow related. Beyond signals being passed along the HDMI cable though, the Roamio should be unaware that there is a new TV there.

My next test is to replace the HDMI cable with a component video cable for a few days. I have a suspicion this will solve the problem, but I don't really want to go back to component video permanently.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Tivo seems to really be struggling with HDMI handshake issues. I have personally never had a problem with it and am running 2 new Samsung Tv's and and a older Mitsubishi, all on HDMI.

Since your reboot problem started with the new TV, it's almost certainly the issue. As you suspect, the reboots should disappear with a component cable setup. Another option to get back to HDMI would be to add a HDMI switch in-line to the connection to your TV. Many users had success using this option when dealing with issues with Tivo Minis rebooting when the TV was first turned on and connected via HDMI.


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## lgnad (Feb 14, 2013)

20.4.1 update which is rolling out to folks who signed, has more fixes for HDMI compatibility issues...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=516208


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## jmbach (Jan 1, 2009)

How is your Roamio and the Smart TV connected to the Internet.


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## ManOfSteele (Jul 23, 2003)

I have a wired connection to the TV. I currently have all "smart" functions disabled though to eliminate that as a possible source. So right now my smart TV isn't so smart...

I've got the Roamio connected via component now. So far no reboots but it hasn't been very long. The quality appears to be very good, coming in at 1080i. The question I have is would there in fact be a difference in quality between HDMI and component?


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## jmbach (Jan 1, 2009)

Is the Roamio wired as well.


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## ManOfSteele (Jul 23, 2003)

Yes, the Roamio is wired as well.


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## jmbach (Jan 1, 2009)

At 1080i the quality is the same. Might want to use optical connection to keep audio quality the same. What OS is the TiVo running. Consider a fixed IP for the Roamio and make sure your DHCP server does not dish out that IP to another device.


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## ManOfSteele (Jul 23, 2003)

I already have optical audio so I'm good to go there, and the video quality looks fine, although my wife says she doesn't think it's as good as the HDMI quality. I'm not convinced. Based on some research I did this morning there can in fact be a difference.

I'm not at home right now so I don't know the specific OS version I'm currently running. I assume it's not the 20.4.1 release that was mentioned in an earlier post; I intend to request a priority update if its not.

I certainly could setup a static IP for the Roamio, but I don't think this would have any impact on my reboot issue...


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## jmbach (Jan 1, 2009)

Probably not. Sometimes some equipment may reboot if it loses its IP address when it is time to renew it and it fails to renew after several attempts. Not sure if TiVo is one of those. Just trying to eliminate variables.


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## ManOfSteele (Jul 23, 2003)

For anyone interested, I got the 20.4.1 upgrade and this did not solve the problem--the Roamio still reboots when connected via HDMI to the Samsung. The TiVo Roamio definitely doesn't like my Smart TV. Fortunately component video works. I suspect I won't see a fix for this HDMI issue from TiVo anytime soon...


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## dcpmark (Feb 8, 2006)

After months of flawless usage, I had my first reboot (that I've noticed) on my Pro while watching a recording a few days ago. No problems yet with any of my Minis. Hope this isn't the start of bad things to come.


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## jmbach (Jan 1, 2009)

ManOfSteele said:


> For anyone interested, I got the 20.4.1 upgrade and this did not solve the problem--the Roamio still reboots when connected via HDMI to the Samsung. The TiVo Roamio definitely doesn't like my Smart TV. Fortunately component video works. I suspect I won't see a fix for this HDMI issue from TiVo anytime soon...


I have my Roamio hooked to my Samsung smart TV u55f8000 without problems. 
You may have already tried this but try different HDMI inputs on the TV and different HDMI cables if you have not done this already. When I bought my TV, the salesman made a point that I should use newer HDMI cables as the older ones may give me issues.


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## ustavio (Oct 19, 2013)

Methinks the last few posts are either spam or someone consumed a bucket of peyote.


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## ustavio (Oct 19, 2013)

ustavio said:


> Methinks the last few posts are either spam or someone consumed a bucket of peyote.


Spam Removal Response Team comes through again!. Many many thanks.


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## ManOfSteele (Jul 23, 2003)

jmbach said:


> You may have already tried this but try different HDMI inputs on the TV and different HDMI cables if you have not done this already. When I bought my TV, the salesman made a point that I should use newer HDMI cables as the older ones may give me issues.


I tried using the HDMI 2 port on my TV last night and the TiVo ran without issues for some 5+ hours. When I headed to bed I powered the Samsung off and *poof* the Roamio immediately rebooted. So clearly some kind of control signal was transmitted over the HDMI cable that the Roamio can't handle.

The other interesting thing from this experiment is that the HDMI 2 port seemed to behave better than HDMI 1. My last experiment using port 1 lasted only 40 minutes before the Roamio rebooted, and that was a spontaneous reboot, not tied to the TV being powered off.

I'm pretty sure the HDMI cable I am currently using is one that came with one of the Minis. I can get a "newer" cable, but I think what I have is about as new as I can get.


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## jmbach (Jan 1, 2009)

I bought a Radio Shack HDMI cable that supported 3D, 4k, and a couple of other things to use with my Roamio Samsung combination. Also the HDMI port I am using on my Samsung is labeled STB/HDMI.


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## mmf01 (Jan 31, 2011)

Just noticed my Roamio Pro rebooted last night at 10:09 PST. Lost half of deadliest catch season premiere because of this. My Sony TV had HDMI control turned on. Turned it off and will see if makes a difference. Had several other reboots previously, but that was back in Feb with the other reboots folks were seeing.


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## TEG (Apr 8, 2014)

Well, just received a replacement for my Roamio, and I can't even get it through the guided setup without it restarting. I've tried to force it to download the OS again, but that doesn't seem to work, as it just enters Guided Setup anyway. Any thoughts?


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## ManOfSteele (Jul 23, 2003)

Here's an odd one. When we watch the Rachel Maddow show on the main TV/Roamio, it works fine. When we watch it from a TV hooked up to a TiVo Mini though, the Roamio reboots. This isn't an HDMI problem since I am using component video. TiVo clearly has to address these reboot isssues with the Roamio.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

One of my Roamio basic just locked up and after a bit, rebooted. I was rewinding a show and the playing it in slow motion when I hit the play to resume, the Tivo wouldn't respond to the remote, the yellow activity light was flashing for every remote keyless but nothing responded. Finally the tv went blank and I I had the Tivo startup screen.

I think this perhaps the third time this has happened since I got it in February.

Other than Tivo replacing a few, is there any word if there is more info from Tivo on this?

Just notice the mention of Samsung tvs... My TV is an best buy Insignia which happens to be a rebadged Samsung TV.....


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## ManOfSteele (Jul 23, 2003)

Hit another one last night. I was watching a show on the Samsung, no Mini involved, and the suddenly the Roamio rebooted. Although no Mini was involved, I *was* downloading a video from my PC via TiVo Desktop, so streaming was taking place, similar I guess to a show being streamed from a Mini. 

Definitely a very unstable environment for me at the moment...


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## thalador (Oct 26, 2007)

Just had my roamio reboot again. Locks up and then "Starting Up"... This is getting very irritating. Considering I just got the Roamio a couple of months ago when Tivo blew up my S3 I am wondering if it is time to sell while I can and start using an X1 or Fios DVR.. I have 6 things scheduled to record in 20 minutes and will be pissed if it boots again


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

thalador said:


> Just had my roamio reboot again. Locks up and then "Starting Up"... This is getting very irritating. Considering I just got the Roamio a couple of months ago when Tivo blew up my S3 I am wondering if it is time to sell while I can and start using an X1 or Fios DVR.. I have 6 things scheduled to record in 20 minutes and will be pissed if it boots again


I have three Roamios Pro upgraded with bigger drives, had only two unscheduled re-boots and both happened when watching Netflix, not that this means anything to help your situation but re-boot are not happing to all Roamios. Could you have a semi bed drive, power problem (is your TiVo on a small UPS ?) Just trying to help. I got my first Roamio Pro in August 2013, my last on in Jan 2014.
The Netflix re-boot problem has gone away at least for now.
OH! I can tell if I have any re-boots as the screen clock goes away and the MoCA up time goes back down as does the Moto cable card up time.


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## StevenToth (May 16, 2014)

I'm having the same issues with the tivo rebooting.

Roamio with a Samsung Smart TV, HDMI connected. The issue never happened with my prior tivo quad. Its specific to my six tuner box. I don't do any mini-remote streaming stuff, it's purely a set-top-box for me (generally).

I can watch tv all day long without an issue, no spontaneous reboots, then recently I started noticing that whenever I turned the TV on, the tivo would be rebooting. At first I blamed power. Now I have the tiro on a UPS. And the UPS isn't throwing any warnings or errors when the reboots occur, so it's unlikely power related.

Recently I've been watching more carefully for when the reboot occurs, and the yellow lights flash on the tivo the immediate moment I lift the tv remote and bring the tv out of standby. Not 100%, but multiple times per day.

- Steve


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## KevinG (Sep 3, 2003)

StevenToth said:


> Recently I've been watching more carefully for when the reboot occurs, and the yellow lights flash on the tivo the immediate moment I lift the tv remote and bring the tv out of standby. Not 100%, but multiple times per day.


This is the HDMI handshake issue that has been talked about (and supposedly fixed in the most recent release). I can tell you definitively that you can "fix" it with a < $10 HDMI splitter from Amazon. You don't actually split anything, and it doesn't take any extra power or anything. You just put it between the Tivo and the TV and the problem goes away. Maybe not what you wanted to hear, but worth trying?


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## StevenToth (May 16, 2014)

KevinG said:


> This is the HDMI handshake issue that has been talked about (and supposedly fixed in the most recent release). I can tell you definitively that you can "fix" it with a < $10 HDMI splitter from Amazon. You don't actually split anything, and it doesn't take any extra power or anything. You just put it between the Tivo and the TV and the problem goes away. Maybe not what you wanted to hear, but worth trying?


Interesting. I do have a (powered) splitter handy. I'll put it in-line and report back.

Thanks for the feedback.


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## Tivohud (Jan 11, 2003)

Had my fifth identifiable (who knows how many more there might have been) reboot since getting my Roamio Plus in February. This is my third TiVo in 12 years and I've had more problems with this box in 3.5 months than the other two boxes combined. I hope TiVo gets this figured out, but in the meantime I'll try another HDMI port (and perhaps invest in a splitter).


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## StevenToth (May 16, 2014)

StevenToth said:


> Interesting. I do have a (powered) splitter handy. I'll put it in-line and report back.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.


So far so good, about 12hrs with no reboots.


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## ManOfSteele (Jul 23, 2003)

I'm using component video with my Samsung Smart TV/Roamio combination and it helped a lot. I still get occasional reboots though, even without HDMI. I've had at least one reboot where no remote streaming of any kind was taking place, the Roamio just rebooted right while we were watching a recorded show on the Samsung...


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Could somebody please point me to where I can buy one the the "verified to work with, and verified to help with TiVo Roamio HDMI issues" splitters, that I've seen claims of being ~$10 in price range?

I'm sick of waiting for TiVo to fix the HDMI issues.

I'm looking for some specifically for Base-Roamios (three).

I'd rather have switches (maybe matrixes), and I'm not limited to $10 (although, the less additional money spent on workarounds, the better).

My issues started with a past update, continued through before 20.4.1, then were made worse by 20.4.1.

Waiting, and hoping, that TiVo will fix this just seems dumb at this time, and after so much time. With my luck, the next update could make things worse for me, and the minority with issues the same as mine, while curing the majority...

Thanks in advance.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

nooneuknow said:


> Could somebody please point me to where I can buy one the the "verified to work with, and verified to help with TiVo Roamio HDMI issues" splitters, that I've seen claims of being ~$10 in price range?
> 
> I'm sick of waiting for TiVo to fix the HDMI issues.
> 
> ...


It's more than $10 however I have good success with this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004F9LVXC/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

There appears to a few knock off's of it (Go figure), the key from what I understand is there are two different types, one with a metal case and other with a plastic case. I have two of these with the metal case and I haven't' had any issues with HDMI or related issues. I'm using it for a different reason as I have a Black Magic Intensity Pro, this small box appears to resolves most HDMI handshaking problems that I have had to deal with. :up:

I will not claim that it fixes everything, however I had reboots and the audio hiss issues on my Roamio that doesn't use this box while my 2nd one does which I haven't seen any issues other than one reboot which was Netflix related.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

eboydog said:


> It's more than $10 however I have good success with this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004F9LVXC/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> There appears to a few knock off's of it (Go figure), the key from what I understand is there are two different types, one with a metal case and other with a plastic case. I have two of these with the metal case and I haven't' had any issues with HDMI or related issues. I'm using it for a different reason as I have a Black Magic Intensity Pro, this small box appears to resolves most HDMI handshaking problems that I have had to deal with. :up:
> 
> I will not claim that it fixes everything, however I had reboots and the audio hiss issues on my Roamio that doesn't use this box while my 2nd one does which I haven't seen any issues other than one reboot which was Netflix related.


On Netflix will this box do 1080P/24 as the spec. only go to 1080p


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

lessd said:


> On Netflix will this box do 1080P/24 as the spec. only go to 1080p


That's certainly something I'd want to know, as well.

Thanks, eboydog, for your input.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

I haven't had any issues so far, the highest settings I have used is 1080p pass thru on the Tivo side with no issues. The particular TV i'm using is older one not capable of supporting anything too high however that other thing I spoke of, accepts 1080p 23.98 format just fine with no issue so I would have to say yes despite what the spec's say.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

nooneuknow said:


> Could somebody please point me to where I can buy one the the "verified to work with, and verified to help with TiVo Roamio HDMI issues" splitters, that I've seen claims of being ~$10 in price range?
> 
> I'm sick of waiting for TiVo to fix the HDMI issues.
> 
> ...


Every switch I've tried has worked with my Roamios. I'm currently using several HDMI switches with them. Some from Monoprice and some from Amazon. Some auto switch and some use a remote. And I use an HDMi 1x2 splitter in one setup (along with two switches). I got that from Amazon.

I have no idea if they will help with HDMI issues though. The only HDMI issues I've had was with my XBOnes and the Mini and Basic going into it's HDMI input. I used the active HDMI splitters to take care of that. Otherwise I've not had any HDMI issues.


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## KevinG (Sep 3, 2003)

nooneuknow said:


> Could somebody please point me to where I can buy one the the "verified to work with, and verified to help with TiVo Roamio HDMI issues" splitters, that I've seen claims of being ~$10 in price range?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Here's the one I used. Worked perfectly while I needed it. My Mini and my TV didn't get along. This switch cleared it up.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B46XUQU/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=517829

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=517733

Looking for people who have had a case of the "random reboots", or ones that happen after a TiVo Service connection, or cases that make you think your power supply, hard drive, or TiVo, has gone bad.

*It might not be anything hardware related, if it's what's described in the threads above.*


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## NYC9185 (Mar 12, 2014)

God damn my plus which is hooked up to my Samsung smart TV is rebooting constantly since Thursday night 1130pm. Never had this problem since I got my Tivo in sept. Tivo and TV are hdmi connected


The plus is wired to Internet directly when I go to connecting to get on Tivo servers it doesnt then either reboots or 126 error message. 

Now i have a roamio basic( living room) hooked up to my sharp smart TV hdmi connected but on wifi connection to internet no problems

Should I just put component wires on my plus/Samsung or should I put plus on wifi connection? 
This is so frustrating


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## ManOfSteele (Jul 23, 2003)

I switched to component video and it made a huge difference. I'd like to say it solved the problem 100% but I have had a few reboots since switching. Not many, not compared to the daily reboots when I had HDMI between the TiVo and the Samsung TV, but there have been a few. I assume it is a different issue since component and HDMI are as different as they come. I've also had one of my Minis reboot, but I assume that's a different issue as well, and it only happened once, at least while I was watching.

I checked last night and I have not had a reboot on my Roamio in 8 days. I intend to monitor this closely.

Note: I've disabled pretty much all of the "smart" functions on the Samsung, although it is still hooked to the internet via a hardwire.


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## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

ManOfSteele said:


> I checked last night and I have not had a reboot on my Roamio in 8 days. I intend to monitor this closely.


I just had a reboot, had one each 2 days prior, before that it had been a week or so. Although I know when there was a reboot because of having to SPSPS for progress bar, and interrupted recordings of course, but where/how can I otherwise monitor?

Note: Just checked Sys Info which said last connect was today May 28 at 11:39 AM (succeeded) and Next Scheduled May 28 at 1:44 PM. That's odd. The reboot was at 1:15 PM ...


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

I can speak from experience, that my Roamios (and other TiVos before them), reboot far more often than I notice (since I'm not always there, and/or paying attention, when it happens). If one reboots and nothing is recording, and/or I'm not actively watching it, I have to check for uptime, or I'd miss it even happened.

What's odd, with the Roamios, is that whatever is going on with one (probable database corruption), causes a plethora of issues I thought were HDMI-related, or something else, entirely, with the other two.

If I take and isolate the corrupted one, the other two start acting normally...

I'll be back with more details, after I observe with due-diligence. I think the network dependant nature may be key to one making the other two misbehave.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

nooneuknow said:


> I can speak from experience, that my Roamios (and other TiVos before them), reboot far more often than I notice (since I'm not always there, and/or paying attention, when it happens). If one reboots and nothing is recording, and/or I'm not actively watching it, I have to check for uptime, or I'd miss it even happened.
> 
> What's odd, with the Roamios, is that whatever is going on with one (probable database corruption), causes a plethora of issues I thought were HDMI-related, or something else, entirely, with the other two.
> 
> ...


You maybe on to something. Your reboots from the bad TiVo could be causing the others to reboot. I've had cases when disconnecting my MoCA based Minis at splitter has caused my Host DVR to reboot a few seconds later. I've also experienced having 8 minis with the same host DVR starts having communication errors (request timeouts / C501) that seem to trigger reboots. I've only gotten 7 minis to operate cleanly. But all this makes me think a TiVo could reboot if communications between TiVo A and TiVo B are unexpectedly severed at the wrong time (which might happen with a random reboot). I just don't know how chatty DVRs are with each other (as compared to the very chatty minis) to cause this same scenario.


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## BruceShultes (Oct 2, 2006)

I live in area where the power wires on the poles from my electricity company are old enough that almost every time there is a thunderstorm, my lights at least flicker and occasionally go out completely.

I have a separate UPS for each of my Tivo's and TV's. In spite of this, I still get an occasional TiVo boot during or shortly a thunderstorm.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

BruceShultes said:


> I live in area where the power wires on the poles from my electricity company are old enough that almost every time there is a thunderstorm, my lights at least flicker and occasionally go out completely.
> 
> I have a separate UPS for each of my Tivo's and TV's. In spite of this, I still get an occasional TiVo boot during or shortly a thunderstorm.


Yeah, mine are all on UPS backup, along with everything from the cable modem, all the way to the TiVo. The only thing not on UPS are the TVs.

I've checked my UPS batteries. They are at 100% capacity, and have 30 minutes minimum runtime (I verified). We have VERY good power here. It's usually ~125V, without fluctuating at all, most of the time. We only get outages when a drunk driver hits a pole, or a transformer blows (rare).

I'm still doing my due-dilligence, before I start posting details, and my diagnosis/best-guesses.

The Roamios are VERY chatty with each other, and with the real-time TiVo Service, even when just sitting in standby, and not recording. I can't even replicate the activity level, manually. Closest I could come was during some intensive KMTTG functions.

Something that I recently discovered that may help with database issues, aside from what I've been posting, is to clear the recently deleted folder, then use KMTTG to bulk delete EVERYTHING in My Shows, then use KMTTG to restore it all back.

lpwcomp gets the credit for reminding me of this:



lpwcomp said:


> I don't think that RPC supports changing the keep until date, but I have a suggestion that I think will get you what you want.
> 
> Use kmttg to mass delete all the recordings you want to change. Then mass recover them from "Deleted". Joila, no longer marked KUID.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

BruceShultes said:


> I live in area where the power wires on the poles from my electricity company are old enough that almost every time there is a thunderstorm, my lights at least flicker and occasionally go out completely.
> 
> I have a separate UPS for each of my Tivo's and TV's. In spite of this, I still get an occasional TiVo boot during or shortly a thunderstorm.


That should not happen. The only time I've run into this with a device, during the last twenty years of using UPSs, is when the UPS was bad. Once it was replaced, then it did not happen.

I've had the power go off and on a dozen times in half a minute and it will not affect any TiVos or other devices connected to a UPS. As long as the UPS is working properly. At least that has been the case with the APC and couple of other brand UPSs I have always used. I suppose if the UPS is not fast enough to switch to battery then there could be an issue, but then that would not be a UPS one would want to use for anything.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> That should not happen. The only time I've run into this with a device, during the last twenty years of using UPSs, is when the UPS was bad. Once it was replaced, then it did not happen.
> 
> I've had the power go off and on a dozen times in half a minute and it will not affect any TiVos or other devices connected to a UPS. As long as the UPS is working properly. At least that has been the case with the APC and couple of other brand UPSs I have always used. I suppose if the UPS is not fast enough to switch to battery then there could be an issue, but then that would not be a UPS one would want to use for anything.


How low an input AC voltage is needed to turn on your (or any ) UPS to battery operation?? (I know 0 volts works). I never tested for this.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

lessd said:


> How low an input AC voltage is needed to turn on your (or any ) UPS to battery operation?? (I know 0 volts works). I never tested for this.


If you see a "Sensitivity" setting, it changes the trigger voltages.

Here's the spec of an APC Back-UPS 750:
Input voltage range for main operations 88V - 139V


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

telemark said:


> If you see a "Sensitivity" setting, it changes the trigger voltages.
> 
> Here's the spec of an APC Back-UPS 750:
> Input voltage range for main operations 88V - 139V


What does 88VAC do to a TiVo ?? If I have time I will test this out as I have a big industrial AC voltage control somewhere in my cellar.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

lessd said:


> What does 88VAC do to a TiVo ?? If I have time I will test this out as I have a big industrial AC voltage control somewhere in my cellar.


I have my UPS set for the highest low voltage intervention and the lowest over voltage. Not sure what those settings are though. I did have a brown out once where the voltage dropped to around 80 volts. It lastest for at least ten minutes. The lights dimmed and anything with a fan, not on a ups ran super slow. I was so glad I had all my electronics on a ups.


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## BP-isMe (Dec 16, 2003)

Not sure how many this applies to. You may or may not be aware that putting a surge protector after a UPS can cause problems. It's almost always written in the UPS manual. The surge protector clamps the voltage when it sees a spike. The switch over to battery power often causes the surge protector to clamp.

Hope this helps...Brad


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

It might be sufficient to test the Power Supply (output) at different input voltages.
(120V warning, don't touch the insides)

Then figure out what a Tivo board and a hard drive does with those voltages.

Not completely accurate, since the voltage changes are dynamic, but it should answer some questions at least.

UPS are very commonly used with computers and the Tivo's pretty much just like one, except for some of the cable/antenna parts.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

telemark said:


> It might be sufficient to test the Power Supply (output) at different input voltages.
> (120V warning, don't touch the insides)
> 
> Then figure out what a Tivo board and a hard drive does with those voltages.
> ...


Whatever the min/max voltage range is on a switching/switch-mode power supply, it is supposed to keep the output voltages within their rated ranges (and +/- tolerances), so long as the input doesn't go below the min, or above the max.

This wasn't possible in the days of regulated or unregulated transformer & rectifier bridge power supplies.

I've worked in several fields where I needed to verify that a vendor's product operated both as we needed it to, and as it was rated to.

I used a variac, and found that most switch-mode power supplies strained to operate below 90V, and would draw higher amperage, often dangerous levels. My memory on the high side of the rating is foggy, as the emphasis was on being able to be reliable at low input voltages.

I must have completely blown up at least 100 computer power supplies, in the course of a month. All I was doing was verifying they would operate as rated. The majority failed to, especially if I created loads that ran all the outputs at their rated individual and combined "sustained" ratings. Forget the "peak" ratings. Most couldn't operate the "sustained" ratings.

Switch-mode power supplies can actually operate with momentary complete losses of input. It's in milliseconds, but still impressive.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

BP-isMe said:


> Not sure how many this applies to. You may or may not be aware that putting a surge protector after a UPS can cause problems. It's almost always written in the UPS manual. The surge protector clamps the voltage when it sees a spike. The switch over to battery power often causes the surge protector to clamp.
> 
> Hope this helps...Brad


I use 15 to 20 surge protectors connected to my UPSs and I've yet to run into any issues.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> I use 15 to 20 surge protectors connected to my UPSs and I've yet to run into any issues.


It's still not recommended, and is highly warned against, just like daisy-chaining surge protection strips is. The reason is due to the potential for a fire, caused by some sort of ping-pong effect that can happen under certain circumstances.

You should have no problem googling up the specifics, and finding pictures of the carnage that can happen.

Being the perfectionist that you are with so many things (especially with your networking), I'm shocked at your response.

Essentially, you have a catastrophe waiting to happen. This is not an overstatement. Daisy-chaining surge protectors, even without a UPS involved, has been determined, without a doubt, to have been the cause of many fires. Your 15-20 surge protectors connected to UPSs w/surge protection, is not something to be proud of, just because you haven't been hit by the conditions that can turn it into a house fire.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

nooneuknow said:


> It's still not recommended, and is highly warned against, just like daisy-chaining surge protection strips is. The reason is due to the potential for a fire, caused by some sort of ping-pong effect that can happen under certain circumstances.
> 
> You should have no problem googling up the specifics, and finding pictures of the carnage that can happen.
> 
> ...


I have a total home surge protector, but most of my plug strips say they have a built in surge protector, if that was such a fire hazard I would have though I and others would have heard of this danger before. Much of my electronics is not plug into any plug strip that why I have the total home surge protector.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

lessd said:


> I have a total home surge protector, but most of my plug strips say they have a built in surge protector, if that was such a fire hazard I would have though I and others would have heard of this danger before. Much of my electronics is not plug into any plug strip that why I have the total home surge protector.


I'm fairly certain it almost takes a lightning strike, or a transient as the result of one, for the danger I spoke of. While the odds of a direct lightning strike are one thing, the odds of getting a transient surge/spike from one in the general area are another.

Essentially, if the surge gets between two protection devices, the clamping can trap the energy (joules) between the two, and can result in a fire (all that energy has to dissipate somehow, usually in the form of heat).

Since UPSs have surge protection, they apply as well, and there's an additional risk of damaging the UPS if surge strips are on the outlets (for the same reasons, plus factors introduced by UPS generated output). Check the website of the company that makes your UPS, and I'm sure you'll find the warnings there, or in any modern manual for one (which nobody reads).

I use a whole home protector at the main panel, and make sure any strips connected to my UPSs don't have protection. The whole home protector is a first line of defense, and clearly states to use surge protectors on devices that should be fully protected.

The whole home devices are designed to avoid the trapping and ping-pong effect, with downstream protectors (as long as the downstream strips aren't daisy-chained). Some of it is just due to the higher clamping voltage of the whole home device. That provides a "way out" for reflected-back energy.

I was completely in the dark about all of this, until it came up in another thread, years ago, and I was skeptical about it. It didn't take long for me to go from skeptical to fully convinced.

If anybody can find a legitimate link to something that "debunks" what I am sharing, in good faith, I invite posting it.

There are a great many precautions with home wiring and appliances/devices that people don't take, or circumvent. Some will never have the misfortunes that they leave themselves open to, while others who thought they were being vigilant by only using surge protection strips, have lost everything in a fire, with the daisy-chained suppressors being determined to be the point-of-origin. But, hey, at least the surge didn't make it to the computer (or TiVo). It's now a charred lump, but due to a fire.

I'm sure that some surge strips are so poorly-rated (in joules & clamping voltage), that not only will they not protect anything, but also likely wouldn't cause the scenario I speak of. I'm fairly sure that it's actually the better-rated (in joules, & clamping voltage) surge strips that run the highest fire risk, if daisy-chained. Not all are created equal, nor do they all use the same methods to provide protection.

This has taken the thread far from the subject of *"Yet another Roamio reboot issue"*. The only relevant part of this discussion would be that *sometimes surge strips can drop the line voltage down, and cause a TiVo with a borderline power supply to reboot.* So, I'd much rather leave it up to those who are unaware of the potential risks of suppressor/protector daisy-chaining (including to UPS outputs), to do a little research, and decide for themselves if they might want to rethink their strategies with surge strips.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

At this point I can't see making any changes since for close to twenty years this has been the case with my setups.

I had read about potential issues but I had never run into any issues personally and no one I know has ever run into issues.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> At this point I can't see making any changes since for close to twenty years this has been the case with my setups.
> 
> I had read about potential issues but I had never run into any issues personally and no one I know has ever run into issues.


I think the danger of daisy-chaining power strips is sometimes overstated, but it's probably a bad idea nevertheless. Most surge suppressors I'm familiar with absorb the energy from voltage spikes, and theoretically daisy-chaining them should be pointless but probably not dangerous. I suppose resistive voltage drop could become a problem at some point. But feeding a surge-suppressor power strip from a UPS could cause problems when the unit switches to battery power.

Most common UPS units put out a "stepped sine wave" which is really more of a modified square wave. Most equipment power supplies can deal with that, but a surge suppressor might see spikes high enough to trim, causing it to absorb energy from every wave, which could probably damage the surge suppressor and might even build up enough heat to cause a fire. I always use cheap power strips with no protection on the output side of a UPS. No protection should be needed there anyway.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

L David Matheny said:


> I think the danger of daisy-chaining power strips is sometimes overstated, but it's probably a bad idea nevertheless. Most surge suppressors I'm familiar with absorb the energy from voltage spikes, and theoretically daisy-chaining them should be pointless but probably not dangerous. I suppose resistive voltage drop could become a problem at some point. But feeding a surge-suppressor power strip from a UPS could cause problems when the unit switches to battery power.
> 
> Most common UPS units put out a "stepped sine wave" which is really more of a modified square wave. Most equipment power supplies can deal with that, but a surge suppressor might see spikes high enough to trim, causing it to absorb energy from every wave, which could probably damage the surge suppressor and might even build up enough heat to cause a fire. I always use cheap power strips with no protection on the output side of a UPS. No protection should be needed there anyway.


I agree with everything you just said. It's a bit dismissive of the potential danger of daisy-chaining surge protectors/suppressors (perhaps, rightly so), but gives an accurate, concise, reason for not using surge strips on the outputs of UPS units.


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## shaolinkidd (Jul 23, 2013)

StevenToth said:


> Interesting. I do have a (powered) splitter handy. I'll put it in-line and report back.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.


Did the splitter work for this issue?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I'm posting here only because the thread title is so inviting. Here's my situation:

I have a Roamio with a 1P to record the old series L&O:CI from any channel, new & repeats. I know there are 10 seasons, so I decided to move all episodes from S1 through S4 to my Premiere, which is just used for storage. I've been doing this for about a month. S5 through S10 I have been keeping on my Roamio. This series is not on Prime. There are 41 pending recordings from three different channels.

Today I decided to watch the first episode. So I went to My Shows, selected the Premiere, and the folder with the series. I went to the S1 E1 and hit play on the remote.

My Roamio went to a black screen for about 10 seconds, then started to restart.

When it was finished, I decided to copy back that episode to my Roamio. After a few minutes of copying, I selected it and hit play. No problem. I watched the whole episode as it was moving back to the Roamio.

Then, being curious, I tried to repeat the steps. Yes, it caused the Roamio to reboot. Cool or what. I guess this gets filed in the "don't do that" folder.


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