# TiVo HDTV Series 3 has crashed/rebooted several times in one day



## Mike Richardson (Sep 24, 2012)

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## Mike Richardson (Sep 24, 2012)

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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

I would check for bulging capacitors on the power supply (capacitor plague) and try testing the disk with the manufacturer diagnostic software or via a kickstart 54 on the TiVo itself.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Most likely it's the hard drive, but it could also be the power supply.
Have you tried doing any of the kickstart functions on the Tivo?
http://www.weaknees.com/tivo-kickstart-codes.php

You should at least open the Tivo and visually inspect the power supply for capacitor plague. All capacitors should be completely flat on top. If any appear to be bulging or leaking, they need to be replaced.










If the power supply looks okay, you can concentrate on the hard drive.
To comfirm whether the hard drive is bad, use the drive manufacturers utility (most likely a WD hard drive) and test it on your computer.
Don't run any tests that write to the hard drive.

If you confirm that the hard drive is bad, you can use WinMFS or the MFS Live CD to build a new hard drive.

http://www.mfslive.org/

The images you need are here (thanks to unitron):

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8831301#post8831301

The .tbk image file is for using with WinMFS and the .bak image file is for using with the MFS Live CD.

If you use the above to make a new hard drive, note that you will have to run a Clear & Delete Everything once it is installed in the Tivo. This step is needed to pair the new hard drive with the motherboard.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Also:
It would be good to use a multimeter to measure the power supply voltages even if you don't see any bulging or leaking capacitors:
Red 5V
Yellow 12V
Orange: 3.3V
Black: Ground
There is a connector where all these colored wires plug in to the motherboard. Insert (thin) multimeter probes into the back of that connector.
WARNING: Possible Shock Hazard

After a Clear & Delete All, you will also have to repeat the CableCARD installation process. You also will have to repeat guided setup, and force connection to the TiVo server several times, then reboot, to get the lastest software installed. If the sofware version in the image you install is really old, you may have to force the update before you can even install the CableCARD, I think.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

If it were me (which in fact it was a little over a year ago), I would use WinMFS to create a truncated backup, restore and expand to the 250.

You might also put both tuners on channels you don't get and delete anything in the "recently deleted" folder.


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## zapatero (Jan 13, 2006)

Interesting... I came to the forum seeking info on the EXACT same issue. I too have a Series 3 that is all of a sudden rebooting several times a day... and this can happen during a play-back or while it's simply on live-tv and not recording the program.

I do suspect though that it's a bad hard-drive ... and here's why. I had one HD recorded program that when it got to a specific second in the play-back the TiVo would freeze for a moment, then reboot. The reboot was reliably reproducible -- at the exact same spot in the stream. After experimenting with this reboot several times I finally deleted the entire program.

I have a 1tb expansion drive as well. If it is a failing drive is there any way Tivo can read the logs off this box and tell me which drive might be failing?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

zapatero said:


> I have a 1tb expansion drive as well. If it is a failing drive is there any way Tivo can read the logs off this box and tell me which drive might be failing?


Probably not, but _*you*_ can run kickstart 54.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

zapatero said:


> Interesting... I came to the forum seeking info on the EXACT same issue. I too have a Series 3 that is all of a sudden rebooting several times a day... and this can happen during a play-back or while it's simply on live-tv and not recording the program.
> 
> I do suspect though that it's a bad hard-drive ... and here's why. I had one HD recorded program that when it got to a specific second in the play-back the TiVo would freeze for a moment, then reboot. The reboot was reliably reproducible -- at the exact same spot in the stream. After experimenting with this reboot several times I finally deleted the entire program.
> 
> I have a 1tb expansion drive as well. If it is a failing drive is there any way Tivo can read the logs off this box and tell me which drive might be failing?


I believe if you use the Tivo kickstart diagnostics, it will test both drives.
You'll want to try kickstarts 54 & 57.
Instructions linked in my previous post above.

My guess: it's the external. Just to make sure there isn't a communication issue between the hard drives, unplug and reseat the e-SATA cable on both ends when the Tivo is powered down.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

You guys are getting good.

I may be able to do like richsadams and retire from this.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

But seriously, run the manufacturer's long test on the 250* and if it passes slap my S3 HD image on it and try that in the TiVo while you run the manufacturer's long test on the 160 you just pulled from the TiVo.

*Burn yourself a copy of the Ultimate Boot CD

http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/download.html

It's got practically all the different drive makers diagnostic tools on it.

But I suspect the power supply.


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## crazee8 (Jan 31, 2009)

I'm having the same problem of resets. This last week it's getting worse and worse.

I ran kickstart and everything checks as good on option 54 (hard drive test). When I run option 57 (MFS test), the green screen says there's a severe error and that it will take 3 hours to fix. I've run it 3 times and all three times, the box does a reset about 10 minutes into it and the fix can never run.

I guess I'll continue to fiddle with it - thanks for everyone's suggestions.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

crazee8 said:


> I'm having the same problem of resets. This last week it's getting worse and worse.
> 
> I ran kickstart and everything checks as good on option 54 (hard drive test). When I run option 57 (MFS test), the green screen says there's a severe error and that it will take 3 hours to fix. I've run it 3 times and all three times, the box does a reset about 10 minutes into it and the fix can never run.
> 
> I guess I'll continue to fiddle with it - thanks for everyone's suggestions.


Try KS 58


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## crazee8 (Jan 31, 2009)

I just tried KS 58 twice and same thing is happening - Green screen with "serious error" and a 3 hour fix immediately followed by another reboot thus canceling the fix.

I'm thinking I'll open the box sometime today and check out the bulging thing shown earlier?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

crazee8 said:


> I just tried KS 58 twice and same thing is happening - Green screen with "serious error" and a 3 hour fix immediately followed by another reboot thus canceling the fix.
> 
> I'm thinking I'll open the box sometime today and check out the bulging thing shown earlier?


Just remember it is possible to have more than one problem at a time.

Get the UBCD and run the manufacturer's test on the hard drive while you've got the thing open to check the capacitors on the power supply.


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## Mike Richardson (Sep 24, 2012)

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## Mike Richardson (Sep 24, 2012)

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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Mike Richardson said:


> Edit: Kickstart 57 ran for about an hour and a half before it rebooted. I don't know if it was a crash or if it was done.
> 
> Edit 2: Rebooted again during live TV + recording. I have no idea what to do really. If the power supply is bad - and all the capacitors looked just fine, none were bulging at all - why would it be so arbitrary? I mean, it works fine for so long and then just crashes? I can't really afford the outlay and increased fee for one of the new Series 4 models, but getting another older model means getting another used or maybe refurbished unit that will fail again in some arbitrary period of time.


You might try kickstart 58, that is supposed to do a media file cleanup.

Maybe a 52? That shows to be an emergency software reinstall. 
Might be worth a shot.

The only other troubleshooting advice I have is to burn the Tivo software onto a new hard drive with a known good image, just for testing purposes.


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## Mike Richardson (Sep 24, 2012)

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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Mike Richardson said:


> I just tried a kickstart 52. We'll see. There's no media files because I deleted all of them so I don't think a 58 would help. The only other option is trying a known good image. Other than that, it has to be the power supply or the motherboard. A power supply from Weaknees costs twice as much as I paid for the DVR  I only have a pair of 250 GB drives available, and the original 160 GB drive, I can't afford another new drive
> 
> I have noticed the guide loads a little bit more slowly with the 250 GB drive, even though it has 16 MB of cache vs. the old hard drive with only 2 MB of cache.


If you can solder, the parts to fix the power supply will be less than $10.

If the problem is the power supply.

You need to establish that you have a known good hard drive.

Then you should restore a known good image to it, and see how that does in the TiVo.


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## Mike Richardson (Sep 24, 2012)

unitron said:


> If you can solder, the parts to fix the power supply will be less than $10.
> 
> If the problem is the power supply.
> 
> ...


It just rebooted again, another 15 minute interval.

No parts are bulging on the power supply. The only thing I can do is check the voltages when it's hot, my theory being that the reboots are heat related, although there is no obstruction to air flow and the air conditioner is running at 72. My friend can solder better than I can so that's not a problem, but if nothing is bulging then what do we replace? The fan could be bad I suppose (it does spin, although kind of slow compared to a PC fan), or maybe the replacement hard drive gets a little hotter and the fan isn't compensating.

The hard drive was fully tested and wiped a few months ago and then sat on a shelf until now. The computer it came out of had no problems. I find it hard to believe we replaced one bad drive with another - and that we somehow managed to copy the truncated backup without error and restore it to this other drive. And it's still messed up after kickstart 52 - but another full test and a known good backup from the internet is the last thing I can try in regards to the hard drive.

*Edit #454566:* 11 minutes this time.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

At this point, I would put a known good image on the hard drive and see what happens.

I'm thinking the software became corrupted on the 1st hard drive and when you copied it, you also copied the corruption.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Two points:

While a bulged capacitor ALWAYS means it is bad/going bad, the failure to have a bulge does not mean it is good. Reading your story, this is your most likely source of a problem, though that could have caused an issue with the disk.

Have you tested the drives with their manufactures drive tool? While the tivo tests can be good indicators, the mfrs tool is the best to see if the drive has an issue. That is the true measure of good/bad drive.

Now, you could have some software corruption, but if does not pay to investigate that route if you have a hardware failure.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

There seem to be a number of S3 HDs with reboot problems all of a sudden.

I'm beginning to wonder if it's more than co-incidental.


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## Mike Richardson (Sep 24, 2012)

I have the TiVo at my office right now. I took the cover off and then let it boot. Even without any cable connection (and so nothing to buffer on the drive), it's rebooted 3 times in the past hour. I just now checked the voltages in line with the hard drive during the 4th boot and got 12.26v for 12v (yellow) and 4.97v for 5v (red). As I type this it's already rebooted again.

The 250 GB drive was tested with WD's Data Lifeguard Diagnostic on a PC a few months ago after I pulled it out of the Mac, which was not having any problems when I pulled the drive.

I'll ask my friend to look at it when he gets back since he knows a little more about power supplies than I do. There's just nothing strongly indicating a problem: the power supply might be bad (despite voltages in range), the software might be bad (despite the emergency reinstall), the drive might be bad (despite it having been tested albeit a few months ago), or maybe TiVo pushed out some kind of update that screwed up Series 3.

The internal temperature is 42C with the cover off, other forum posts indicate this is fine. Didn't check with the cover on but it's rebooting either way.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Mike Richardson said:


> I have the TiVo at my office right now. I took the cover off and then let it boot. Even without any cable connection (and so nothing to buffer on the drive), it's rebooted 3 times in the past hour. I just now checked the voltages in line with the hard drive during the 4th boot and got 12.26v for 12v (yellow) and 4.97v for 5v (red). As I type this it's already rebooted again.
> 
> The 250 GB drive was tested with WD's Data Lifeguard Diagnostic on a PC a few months ago after I pulled it out of the Mac, which was not having any problems when I pulled the drive.
> 
> ...


If you can hook it to a computer and run WinMFS, click on mfsinfo and see if it's set to boot from 2,3, and 4, if so do the fix boot thing, option 2 and if it's set to boot from 5,6, and 7, choose option 1.

I doubt if they've done anything to the software since k, but if it's stuck trying to change over to the alternate partitions, maybe this'll help it straighten itself out.


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## Mike Richardson (Sep 24, 2012)

I decided to copy the known good image you posted to the 250 GB and then do an extended test on the 160 GB. It's running guided setup right now and so far hasn't crashed.

I did a kickstart 52 yesterday which should have reinstalled the OS and then changed to the new partition if I understand correctly, but it still crashed after that.

My theory is something happened to the software, either the original drive is failing or maybe it got corrupted some other way, and that corrupted software carried over. I can rule this out if the old drive passes the test and the new software crashes. That would mean it has to be something other than the hard drive. Some kind of transient power supply issue causing it to hiccup and reboot, or maybe the logic board.


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## crazee8 (Jan 31, 2009)

Well, mine completely died yesterday before I could get the cover off (couldn't find a tool small enough to unscrew the screws anyway). I guess I'll just give up and buy a new Premiere.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

crazee8 said:


> Well, mine completely died yesterday before I could get the cover off (couldn't find a tool small enough to unscrew the screws anyway). I guess I'll just give up and buy a new Premiere.


Ironically enough, if you don't already have lifetime on it, buying that Premiere puts you in a position to get it for only $99.


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## crazee8 (Jan 31, 2009)

unitron said:


> Ironically enough, if you don't already have lifetime on it, buying that Premiere puts you in a position to get it for only $99.


Do you mean getting lifetime on a new Premiere for $99? How do I go about that? I've never had lifetime on any of my 3 boxes to date.

I'm looking at buying from either TIVO, Best Buy, or Amazon...


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

crazee8 said:


> Do you mean getting lifetime on a new Premiere for $99? How do I go about that? I've never had lifetime on any of my 3 boxes to date.
> 
> I'm looking at buying from either TIVO, Best Buy, or Amazon...


Sorry, no, lifetime on the S3 for $99 if you're also buying a Premiere which would otherwise mean discontinuing the sub on the S3.

It's like their one last shot at getting some money out of you and it, and keeping their subscription numbers up.

Which is why if you sell it to someone first, they aren't getting that offer, 'cause they aren't a subscriber yet, and so they don't have any leverage with TiVo like you would.

Also, if you paid for a 3 year sub back when lifetime wasn't available, and that 3 year sub is running out, you can threaten to cancel/not renew and get the offer.


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## Mike Richardson (Sep 24, 2012)

edit: The TiVo doesn't crash anymore. Unfortunately, the Cable Card lost it's CP Auth, so some random arbitrary channels don't load anymore, despite calling the activation line twice. I don't think they are doing it right.

edit 2: Tried 1-800-XFINITY. They fixed it right away.

So basically, somehow the software went bad on the drive (but not the drive it's self), causing it to reboot every 10-20 minutes. I had to download a fresh image. This caused the Cable Card to become unpaired, which (predictably) took several calls to Comcast to get fixed. 3 days later I can now again enjoy my $2.49 apartment subsidized cable.

Thanks for your help, especially to unitron for posting the fresh image.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

Mike Richardson said:


> So basically, somehow the software went bad on the drive (but not the drive it's self), causing it to reboot every 10-20 minutes. I had to download a fresh image.


Your conclusion seems reasonable, but how can that happen? I thought the TiVo checked its software while booting, mostly to make sure nothing has been hacked. It's not practical to check for garbled video data, and changes in something like a season pass might be hard to detect, but how can the TiVo not notice software that has been modified, either intentionally or accidentally? Could reboots be caused by something like a garbled season pass?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Mike Richardson said:


> edit: The TiVo doesn't crash anymore. Unfortunately, the Cable Card lost it's CP Auth, so some random arbitrary channels don't load anymore, despite calling the activation line twice. I don't think they are doing it right.
> 
> edit 2: Tried 1-800-XFINITY. They fixed it right away.
> 
> ...


Okay, until I know more, I'm going to blame cable cards.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

L David Matheny said:


> Your conclusion seems reasonable, but how can that happen? ...


Gremlins.


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## barbja (Oct 24, 2007)

I also started having this same problem on one of my S3s about 6-7 months ago. It started rebooting itself so often that its now in a state where it won't leave the orange/yellow 'please wait' screen anymore. 

I do eventually want to replace the drive; I'm just waiting until I have the spare dollars and gumption to do it.

I guess I could replace it with a premier. I have an elite, but I got that just so that I could have 4 tuners (how can you resist more tuners?!). I like some things better about the elite's interface but others I don't. I Greatly prefer the S3 playback transport controls though -- the way that they implemented the 30 second skip in the freakin' premier is maddening.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

barbja said:


> I also started having this same problem on one of my S3s about 6-7 months ago. It started rebooting itself so often that its now in a state where it won't leave the orange/yellow 'please wait' screen anymore.
> 
> I do eventually want to replace the drive; I'm just waiting until I have the spare dollars and gumption to do it.
> 
> I guess I could replace it with a premier. I have an elite, but I got that just so that I could have 4 tuners (how can you resist more tuners?!). I like some things better about the elite's interface but others I don't. I Greatly prefer the S3 playback transport controls though -- the way that they implemented the 30 second skip in the freakin' premier is maddening.


Have you bothered to open up the S3 and look at the power supply capacitors?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

My Series 3 started having this same issue a few days ago. It had bulging capacitors, so I replaced them tonight, but it's still doing the same thing.

I ran the kickstart HD tests, and I got a "Fail 7" message on two of the tests. I ran the "fix MFS" kickstart code, and the green screen came up telling me it had discovered a serious error, and that it was attempting to fix it and this would take up to 3 hours. However, just minutes after, the TiVo restarted again, went into the same MFS fix mode, restarted again, etc.

So I don't know what's going on... but I'm thinking I might give a new replacement drive a shot.

So my question is, which drives are currently recommended for a Series 3? I tried to search, but didn't find any concise answer. I don't care much about size, I have an upgraded 750GB WD drive in it right now, that's been in there for like 5 or 6 years, and is OK sizewise.

Are any of these drives OK: http://www.shopsws.com/hard-drives-accessories/3-5-internal.html

Anything Best Buy has that I could get?

Would prefer to buy something locally ASAP and get things working again...

Thanks!


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

MickeS said:


> My Series 3 started having this same issue a few days ago. It had bulging capacitors, so I replaced them tonight, but it's still doing the same thing.
> 
> I ran the kickstart HD tests, and I got a "Fail 7" message on two of the tests. I ran the "fix MFS" kickstart code, and the green screen came up telling me it had discovered a serious error, and that it was attempting to fix it and this would take up to 3 hours. However, just minutes after, the TiVo restarted again, went into the same MFS fix mode, restarted again, etc.
> 
> ...


Unfotunately you just missed the chance to get a WD20EURS from Amazon or newegg for $100, now it's back up to $120.

I'd avoid everything on the link you included as being too small, too new, or too fast, or some combination.

Avoid WD drives with Zs and Xs in the model number, avoid 6Gb/s drives, a 2TB drive is your best GB/$ ratio buy right now and 2TB is the biggest drive your TiVo can use.

A WD20EADS, WD20EARS, WD20EACS, or WD20EURS at around $100 would be good, but only the EURS seems to still be available at any price.

There doesn't seem to be agreement on which Seagates do and don't work.

Someone mentioned using a Samsung or Hitachi the other day, I suppose you could search the entire site for each of those names in turn to find the comment.

And anything at Best Buy these days will probably be in a retail box with its own part/model number, which means there's no way to tell what's actually in the box.

And I think everything they have on the shelves is down to a 1 year warranty at this point, which should be a big red flag, although all of that isn't BB's fault, but the drivemakers'.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Thanks for the quick response!

I looked at the old drive now, and it wasn't a WD, it was a Seagate drive model DB35.3. I'll keep your criteria in mind when looking, thanks.

I'm thinking of this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148900
As far as I can tell, it's a similar drive to the one I had in there (supposedly designed for DVR use with 24x7 use). Promo stuff from Seagate here: http://www.seagate.com/internal-hard-drives/consumer-electronics/pipeline-hd/
Anyone used it?

I also put the original 250GB drive back in just now to test, and the TiVo started just fine with that, so I'm guessing the issue is the drive, maybe it was both the drive and the capacitors before... either way, those capacitors were bulging, so the $11 I spent replacing them were probably well spent anyway.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

MickeS said:


> Thanks for the quick response!
> 
> I looked at the old drive now, and it wasn't a WD, it was a Seagate drive model DB35.3. I'll keep your criteria in mind when looking, thanks.
> 
> ...


You absolutely needed to replace at least some of those caps.

As for the drive in there now, the DB35, I think that's a Pipeline model.

As for spending $120 for the

Seagate Pipeline HD ST2000VM002 2TB 5900 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive

with a 2 year warranty,

you just missed paying $20 less on either of these

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0042AG9V8/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136783

which are the same drive, the WD20EURS, and it comes with a 3 year warranty and reports from me and other TCF'ers that it works in an S3 HD just fine.

Amazon packed mine well, don't know about newegg on this particular model.

You can use jmfs to copy the old Seagate to a new 2TB and expand, and maybe it'll work out and you won't lose your settings or shows.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

unitron said:


> You absolutely needed to replace at least some of those caps.
> 
> As for the drive in there now, the DB35, I think that's a Pipeline model.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I think I'll get that WD drive.

Is there an advantage to using jmfs vs WinMFS if WinMFS says my faulty drive is not a TiVo drive... seems it can't read it. Is jmfs the only way to get a 2TB running? I do have the original drive with v 9.x of the TiVo software on it.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

MickeS said:


> Thanks, I think I'll get that WD drive.
> 
> Is there an advantage to using jmfs vs WinMFS if WinMFS says my faulty drive is not a TiVo drive... seems it can't read it. Is jmfs the only way to get a 2TB running? I do have the original drive with v 9.x of the TiVo software on it.


If it's screwed up enough that WinMFS doesn't consider it a TiVo drive (It can see it, but can't read it?), then jmfs will probably re-act the same way.

Stick the original back in and let it get its software updated to the latest and make sure it has the right cable and over the air lineups and cable card pairing and whatnot, and then you can copy it.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

MickeS said:


> Is jmfs the only way to get a 2TB running? I do have the original drive with v 9.x of the TiVo software on it.


If you want to go 2TB, then you have to use JMFS. WinMFS alone won't do the job. IIRC, there's a limitation in the WinMFS software and it doesn't completely take advantage of the full 2TB.

The JMFS software is easy enough to use.
To take full advantage of 2TB in the TivoHD, you 'copy' and 'expand' using JMFS and then you 'supersize' with WinMFS.

Edit:
Nevermind. I see that you have an original Series 3. 
Things are slightly different with that model. You can still get to 2TB, but the method is different.
Hopefully someone else can better explain as I am only familiar with the TivoHD.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

steve614 said:


> If you want to go 2TB, then you have to use JMFS. WinMFS alone won't do the job. IIRC, there's a limitation in the WinMFS software and it doesn't completely take advantage of the full 2TB.
> 
> The JMFS software is easy enough to use.
> To take full advantage of 2TB in the TivoHD, you 'copy' and 'expand' using JMFS and then you 'supersize' with WinMFS.
> ...


I thought the TiVoHD and the Series 3 used the same method, but the Premiere used a different method? I'm going to give the TiVoHD method a shot, because that's all I found per http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=462179

Also, I found a WD drive called model WDBAAY0020HNC-NRSN at Best Buy, which per this thread on the WD forum is a WD20EARS drive, which people seem to have been successful with, so I got that one. Just in case someone is interested. 

Thanks for the help everyone.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

MickeS said:


> I thought the TiVoHD and the Series 3 used the same method, but the Premiere used a different method? I'm going to give the TiVoHD method a shot, because that's all I found per http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=462179
> 
> Also, I found a WD drive called model WDBAAY0020HNC-NRSN at Best Buy, which per this thread on the WD forum is a WD20EARS drive, which people seem to have been successful with, so I got that one. Just in case someone is interested.
> 
> Thanks for the help everyone.


jmfs was devloped to upgrade Premiere drives.

By lucky chance it works on the S3 HD and S3 HD XL as well, but apparently not the original S3.

That which drive did I buy thread is about a year old and the OP probably got a pre-flood drive.

The box with the model number

WDBAAY0020HNC-NRSN

has contained several different model number drives in the past few years, the WD20EACS, the WD20EARS, the WD20EADS, among others, all of which should work in new enough TiVos, however lately it's contained newer model WD drives with Xs and Zs in the model number, and I don't think I've seen any success stories involving those.

You might want to return it and get a WD20EURS from Amazon or newegg for $120 (unfortunately you just missed a 2 day period when they were $100).


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

unitron said:


> jmfs was devloped to upgrade Premiere drives.
> 
> By lucky chance it works on the S3 HD and S3 HD XL as well, but apparently not the original S3.


OK, now I'm confused... my model is the TiVo Series 3 model number 648250B. I thought jmfs worked with this, but you're saying it doesn't? I guess I'll just have to settle for using WinMFS if not, and not use the full drive.



unitron said:


> That which drive did I buy thread is about a year old and the OP probably got a pre-flood drive.
> 
> The box with the model number
> 
> ...


Yeah, just keep reminding me I missed that sale!  Thanks for the info... I might just take it out of the box and put it in a PC if it's not a known compatible drive.... argh, why is this such a hassle.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

MickeS said:


> OK, now I'm confused... my model is the TiVo Series 3 model number 648250B. I thought jmfs worked with this, but you're saying it doesn't? I guess I'll just have to settle for using WinMFS if not, and not use the full drive.
> 
> Yeah, just keep reminding me I missed that sale!  Thanks for the info... I might just take it out of the box and put it in a PC if it's not a known compatible drive.... argh, why is this such a hassle.


It's a hassle for a number of reasons, but the drive makers seem to be going out of their way to make it even worse than usual lately.

Currently the best I can do for you is to tell you to start reading here

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9168233#post9168233

and go forward.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Thanks!

After a bunch of reading here at the forum tonight, I had decided to call it a day and stick to the original drive for now. Then I remembered I had an old 500GB WD drive from 2008 that I hadn't used in years... I used WinMFS to copy and expand the original 250GB drive onto the 500GB drive, and popped that into the TiVo. Alas, it didn't boot. Then I did some more reading, and found out about the IntelliPark feature and how to disable it.

After doing that, the 500GB drive worked like a charm (knock on wood, only been in there for about half an hour now ), so I'll stick to this configuration for now. 70HD hours will have to do for a while.

Thanks unitron and the others who wrote in all those other threads for your help!


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

MickeS said:


> Thanks!
> 
> After a bunch of reading here at the forum tonight, I had decided to call it a day and stick to the original drive for now. Then I remembered I had an old 500GB WD drive from 2008 that I hadn't used in years... I used WinMFS to copy and expand the original 250GB drive onto the 500GB drive, and popped that into the TiVo. Alas, it didn't boot. Then I did some more reading, and found out about the IntelliPark feature and how to disable it.
> 
> ...


What's the model number on that 500GB?

If your cable co. doesn't lock down everything it can with the no copy bit, that 2TB in a computer running TiVo Desktop is a good place to relocate the My TiVo Recordings folder, and you can create sub-folders in that into which to sort shows, and those folders will be visible when you go to the computer in your TiVo's Now Playing list.


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## bstendel (Oct 5, 2012)

I searched online, then came back to Tivo forums to see if anyone else was having any problems. Seems to be, but I haven't read thru all the posts yet. Wondering if anyone else remembers back a couple of years ago this was happening. Constant reboots. Turned out, Tivo had done a software upgrade that was causing the problem. I'll go read the thread now. 

OK, so I read briefly thru the thread. And someone stated it seems to be a prevalent problem. Any chance it was a software update as before?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

bstendel said:


> OK, so I read briefly thru the thread. And someone stated it seems to be a prevalent problem. Any chance it was a software update as before?


On a TiVo 3? No.


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## bstendel (Oct 5, 2012)

seriously ipwcomp?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

bstendel said:


> seriously ipwcomp?


Disappointed in TiVo - Lack of Support for Series 3

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=491340

4 pages so far


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

unitron said:


> What's the model number on that 500GB?


The 500GB was a WD5000AACS-00ZUB0 according to the WD Diagnostics.

When googling it, seems like people had issues with it, but that was before the IntelliPark disabling thing was discovered it seems. It's been running fine since Thursday now.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

Put me on the list for sudden reboots on my S3.

Started last night, and each time it crashed itself it wouldn't boot back up and would hang in various states of the process. Each time resetting the power allowed it to boot back up completely.

I've completely removed any questionable programs that were recording or watching when it happened and am running the hard drive test (kickstart 54 SMART test).

It has passed the first 3 tests for each HD (I have a 1GB extended) but on the Primary drive I have received a "No Start" for the Extended and Off-line scan. It had started the Extended and said it was going to take about 90 mins, but 10 or so into it is when it changed to "No Start" and the Off Line test last 1 sec. Not quite sure what that means? The Secondary drive is still going through the Extended test.

Edit: I cancelled the above tests, rebooted and went to run a 58. The green screen flashed quick them it went to the "Installing a service update" screen. I thought it was supposed to stay on the green screen while it ran it's tests? Oh wait... now it's rebooting, maybe it really was a service update. Hrmm

Edit 2: I rebooted again after the "update" and ran a 57 this time, now I get the green screen saying my unit has a serious problem and it will take about 3hrs to fix it...


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

It rebooted again after the 57, and I went to rerun the 54 and it got further than it did last time before it went "No Start" again on the primary drive. I rebooted again, attempted to do a 58, again got an "installing service update" and then it when it rebooted it would hang on the welcome screen. Now powering off/on it just keeps hanging there. I pulled the cover and looked at the PS and there appear to be 3 "domed" caps. They are #s C701, C401 & C402. 

I'm not the best with a soldering iron and small parts like that, so I think I might just order a new PS from Weaknees unless someone wants to try and talk me out of it.


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Any local TV repair shops? You could buy the parts and see what they would charge to replace them for you.

Scott


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

Not that I'm aware of, I'd have to check the "yellow pages" to be sure.

I did pull the board to see the underside and some of those joints are awfully close. Now way I can do that with my existing iron tip but I think with a thinner tip I could do it.


----------



## control-z (Mar 4, 2004)

I too am having the reboot problem, with my Tivo HD. It has an upgraded hard drive in it, I did the upgrade a year or two ago. The reboots seemed to start happening when I was watching a recording of last Thursdays Person of Interest. 

However I am having trouble getting to the HD diagnostics. The Tivo HD boots, and after a minute or so the green light blanks and I hold pause, then the yellow and orange (IIRC) lights come on. I quickly enter 54 but the Tivo just keeps booting like normal. Should I see an immediate reaction when I type 54 or 57 or whatever?

Also, I have the RF (not IR) remote, does that make any difference?


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

snowjay said:


> Not that I'm aware of, I'd have to check the "yellow pages" to be sure.
> 
> I did pull the board to see the underside and some of those joints are awfully close. Now way I can do that with my existing iron tip but I think with a thinner tip I could do it.


They aren't that close, I could do it with a Weller soldering gun tip.

And actually the greater heat would make it easier.

Exactly what kind of iron do you have?

The power supply may or may not be your only problem but you won't know until you get it fixed.

Look around for a TV or stereo shop with a repair department and ask them if they understand why Low ESR capacitors are used in switching power supplies, and do they know about "capacitor plague".

If the answer makes it seem like they know what they're talking about, find out if they'll sell you the caps or do the job (walk in with the board in your hand).

It should be a lot cheaper than $100.

If they sell you the 3 caps for $10 they'll be making plenty of markup and saving you shipping charges and waiting.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

unitron said:


> They aren't that close, I could do it with a Weller soldering gun tip.
> 
> And actually the greater heat would make it easier.
> 
> ...


I have this RS 25W iron. Think I should upgrade?

I ordered the parts from Mouser so I'll give it a go when they get here.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

snowjay said:


> I have this RS 25W iron. Think I should upgrade?
> 
> I ordered the parts from Mouser so I'll give it a go when they get here.


The tip on that thing should be plenty small.

It wouldn't hurt if it were a higher wattage for more heat, but instead of getting another iron, grab one of these

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062731&clickid=prod_cs

and remember, when unsoldering, heat up the joint and then apply a little new solder to help melt the old.

When soldering, heat the joint and let the joint's heat melt the solder.

And you can use that solder sucker as a heat source for soldering as well. Hold it with your left hand, heating up the joint to be soldered with the iron in your right. After about half a minute, put the solder sucker on it's stand and grab the solder with your left hand while applying the iron to the joint to keep it hot and feed the solder into the joint.

And make careful notes about which cap came out of which place and which hole got the - lead and which hole got the + lead.

You do not want to install the new ones backwards, polarity-wise.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

Thanks for the tips. I'll try to get out and get one of those desoldering irons, I usually just use the braided wire.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

snowjay said:


> Thanks for the tips. I'll try to get out and get one of those desoldering irons, I usually just use the braided wire.


Unfortunately Radio Shack is getting their de-soldering braid from a different supplier these days.

It used to be not as good as the name brand stuff, like Chem-tronics, Tech-Spray, GC, et cetera, but it was okay. But not the stuff they have now.

You'd be better off using the braid from old TV coax and a little rosin flux.

The trick with the TiVo power supply boards, especially for the - leads which are soldered to the ground plane which is a big expanse of copper that makes a good heat sink, is to be able to deliver enough heat more than what gets conducted away to be able to get the solder to melt.

Once it melts you can rock the cap a little to pull the lead out and then do the other one and go back and forth 'til both leads are free.

Then you need to clean up the holes enough to be able to put the new leads in.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

unitron said:


> Unfortunately Radio Shack is getting their de-soldering braid from a different supplier these days.
> 
> It used to be not as good as the name brand stuff, like Chem-tronics, Tech-Spray, GC, et cetera, but it was okay. But not the stuff they have now.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what braid I have w/o looking, but it's not anything too new.

I've done very little soldering on boards before so this should be interesting. Most of my soldering has been on audio connections or auto wiring which is a little less precise. Although I did manage to remove a faulty temp sensor from an old PowerBook G4 motherboard without screwing it up and that was very tight quarters.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

So while I'm waiting for my capacitors I was reading some of the other threads and did an experiment. I popped out one of my cable cards and got it to boot first time. So hopefully the PS is the only problem and there aren't other lingering issues on the HD.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

snowjay said:


> I'm not sure what braid I have w/o looking, but it's not anything too new.
> 
> I've done very little soldering on boards before so this should be interesting. Most of my soldering has been on audio connections or auto wiring which is a little less precise. *Although I did manage to remove a faulty temp sensor from an old PowerBook G4 motherboard without screwing it up and that was very tight quarters.*


Then you'll probably be fine.

The power supply board is single layer and a not very complex layout by modern standards, so if you have to learn on something in the TiVo, that's the best place.

Just remember don't get the polarity backwards and always know where both ends of the power cord are at all times.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

Thanks for the vote of confidence! I'm pretty meticulous and a "Mr. Fix-it" so I probably won't have any problem. 

My local Rat Shack is poorly stocked so no replacement tip or desolderer. I did manage to pick up a Weller 40W iron though, with multiple tips so all was not lost.


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## Beachbum55 (Jan 1, 2004)

I think my Series 3 with a 500 GM WD expansion drive is toast.

It was stuck on re-boot this morning. I unplugged it/plugged it back in, got that green screen warning message, then it worked for about 15 minutes.

It's now stuck on powering up and I can't get to any of the diagnostics.

Any suggestions?


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

unitron said:


> Then you'll probably be fine.
> 
> The power supply board is single layer and a not very complex layout by modern standards, so if you have to learn on something in the TiVo, that's the best place.
> 
> Just remember don't get the polarity backwards and always know where both ends of the power cord are at all times.


Well after a weeks worth of anticipation and about 15 minutes of work, I changed out the 9 capacitors that I ordered and the TiVo has booted. YAY!

Now lets see if my excitement is short lived...

The replacement wasn't bad at all. The joints aren't the prettiest but they work. Actually the actual joints look solid, there is just some flux residue that got on the board in a couple of spots from the desoldering braid.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Beachbum55 said:


> I think my Series 3 with a 500 GM WD expansion drive is toast.
> 
> It was stuck on re-boot this morning. I unplugged it/plugged it back in, got that green screen warning message, then it worked for about 15 minutes.
> 
> ...


What exactly do you mean by stuck on re-boot?

What exactly did the green screen say?


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

Update: I watched 3hrs of TV last night with no issues. However when I woke up this morning the clock was froze on the front of the S3 at 1:35am. Turing the TV on revealed nothing but a black screen. I rebooted and it seemed to come up but since I was headed to work I didn't have time to do any thorough diagnostics. We'll see what state it is in when I get home. I have a feeling I'm going to need a new HD and may just swap it now while it's still somewhat functioning.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

snowjay said:


> Update: I watched 3hrs of TV last night with no issues. However when I woke up this morning the clock was froze on the front of the S3 at 1:35am. Turing the TV on revealed nothing but a black screen. I rebooted and it seemed to come up but since I was headed to work I didn't have time to do any thorough diagnostics. We'll see what state it is in when I get home. I have a feeling I'm going to need a new HD and may just swap it now while it's still somewhat functioning.


It's not impossible to co-incidently have power supply problems and hard drive problems at the same time.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

unitron said:


> It's not impossible to co-incidently have power supply problems and hard drive problems at the same time.


Yeah, I know it's not out of the realm of possibility. The failing power could certainly lead to hard drive issues as well.

I'm going to try doing a kickstart 54 and 57 and see what happens before I pull the plug on a new drive. I'm pretty confident I have no power issues now.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

TiVo is hosed. Usually wont boot past the powering up screen and if it does boot, it maybe works for 15 minutes before rebooting again, that is of course if it doesn't get the GSOD.

*sigh*

I'm running the standard 160GB drive with a 1TB extension. Since I'm likely to lose all my recordings anyway I'm thinking of picking up that 2TB drive from Amazon mentioned earlier. I'm open to suggestions.

I realize all my settings will be gone, but what about my season passes? I can see what they are on the TiVo website or iPhone app so would that get copied back to the box? I'm hoping my cable cards will still work w/o me having to call Cablevision.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

snowjay said:


> I realize all my settings will be gone, but what about my season passes? I can see what they are on the TiVo website or iPhone app so would that get copied back to the box? I'm hoping my cable cards will still work w/o me having to call Cablevision.


If you can divorce the external, you may be able to use your 160 rather than a downloaded image to create the new internal, thus preserving all of your settings and season passes.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> If you can divorce the external, you may be able to use your 160 rather than a downloaded image to create the new internal, thus preserving all of your settings and season passes.


Yeah, I figured I'd try that first, assuming I can read the drive long enough to update the new one. If I knew it would work I'd get a second 250 and keep my existing setup, but everything is a gamble...

While we are on the subject, anyway to clone a TiVo drive via a Mac? I have SuperDuper but not sure what it will do with a TiVo drive.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

Well I ordered the WD20EURS as it seems people have gotten it to work at full capacity on the S3 w/ OLED. The price dropped to $113 and it will be here Friday.


BTW, any chance my external drive could be failing causing these issues?


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## Nelson213 (Oct 17, 2012)

Hi All,


I had a similar question...I've been experiencing the same problems as everyone else on this thread. I've got the Series 3 with OLED with the original 250GB internal and a 1TB Fantom Green Drive (GD1000EU) as an expansion. I tried the SMART test and it couldn't finish on the first drive. I assumed after reading through several threads that Unitron's suggestion to replace the drive according to Lussie/S3-2501 method would work. But how does the expansion drive come into play? I have a spare 2TB WD20EARS AF drive, looking for any advice on how I should proceed.


Thanks!!!


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

Nelson213 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I had a similar question...I've been experiencing the same problems as everyone else on this thread. I've got the Series 3 with OLED with the original 250GB internal and a 1TB Fantom Green Drive (GD1000EU) as an expansion. I tried the SMART test and it couldn't finish on the first drive. I assumed after reading through several threads that Unitron's suggestion to replace the drive according to Lussie/S3-2501 method would work. But how does the expansion drive come into play? I have a spare 2TB WD20EARS AF drive, looking for any advice on how I should proceed.
> 
> Thanks!!!


I believe, once you upgrade the internal drive you can no longer use the external.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Nelson213 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I had a similar question...I've been experiencing the same problems as everyone else on this thread. I've got the Series 3 with OLED with the original 250GB internal and a 1TB Fantom Green Drive (GD1000EU) as an expansion. I tried the SMART test and it couldn't finish on the first drive. I assumed after reading through several threads that Unitron's suggestion to replace the drive according to Lussie/S3-2501 method would work. But how does the expansion drive come into play? I have a spare 2TB WD20EARS AF drive, looking for any advice on how I should proceed.
> 
> Thanks!!!


You should be able to use that EARS as a replacement internal drive.

You could try copying the internal to it with

dd

or

ddrescue

or

dd_rescue

and trying that with the external still connected.

Of course that would only give you 250GB plus the size of the external, because a byte for byte "Xeroxing" like that would mean the 2TB would have the bootpage and partiton map of a 250.

Of course you could get another 250 (or larger) and "Xerox" to it from the 2TB.

In order to save your recordings, you're going to need to rescue what's on that internal.

That's assuming that only the internal is faulty.

What you need to do is find out what brand drive is inside that Fantom and run the manufacturer's diagnostic on it to make sure it's okay, and then run the manufacturer's diagnostic on the 250 (I assume WD) to see what it has to say about it, and while you've got the lid off of the TiVo check out the power supply for capacitor plague, since that's becoming fairly common in S2s and S3s.

I'm pretty sure that using an external means having to use an internal no larger than the original, or at least one on which only that much space is used, with a partition map that looks like the one on the original and doesn't show an Apple Free partition of unused space at the end.

You know, I assume, that each of your recordings is divvy'ed up between the internal and external, so that neither drive has the entire recording on it.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

What a night this has been...

I get home, my new HD is waiting for me. I pull the old HD out of the TiVo and then realize I don't have any powered enclosures to power the drive after remembering 3.5" drives can't be powered by USB. So I cannabalize the My Book AV since I won't be using it. Took me a while to figure out how to get it recognized in my virtual machine and I was finally ready to go... start WinMFS it sees the drive and then tells me I need to divorce it from the external. :/ So back in the TiVo the drive goes, I boot it w/o the external and tell it I'm no longer going to use it. It does it's thing and reboots. I kill the power and go back to WinMFS. Now it starts the backup and fails right away. I check the info and it says it's not a TiVo drive.

Can you sense my frustration yet? 

Back in the TiVo it goes and it won't boot back the "almost there" screen. So I reboot it and run a 57, it chugged away on that for a long time (I'm guessing something went amiss when it removed the external drive), but then it rebooted and it came back up. I was also surprised to still see a lot of my recordings. I even tried playing a few and they were really there. So I shut it down gracefully as I can (i.e. tell it to reboot and kill power when it cycles) and go back to WinMFS, it now can read the whole drive and partition info and most of all it successfully completed a backup. YAY!

While it was backing up I had the bright idea to run to Best Buy and pick up a second drive enclosure so I could attempt an mfscopy and not lose any of my recordings that I still had. Of course I get to BB and they have NO enclosures. All they had was a BlacX Duet which is a sata "tray" for two drives. So I buy that and go home. I've spent the last hour screwing with it and XP will not recognize it no matter what I do. So there was 2 hours wasted and I've got to bring it back tomorrow and figure out where I can actually buy an real enclosure.

I probably should just restore the backup and forget about it but if I can save those shows I'd like to.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Recordings you made before attaching the external should still be there.

Recordings made after attaching it may or may not show up as listings in Now Playing, but I've seen that happen with just an internal drive and what it was was like a table of contents where the pages after that were no longer there, even though there was still a table of contents that listed them.


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## crazee8 (Jan 31, 2009)

After mine completely died, I called TiVo and they offered a replacement for $50 (exact model), so I took them up on it. The first one arrived dead, no power whatsoever. They immediately shipped out another one and I set it up yesterday. 

So far so good, so if I can get another year or two out of it, it will be worth it to me.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

unitron said:


> Recordings you made before attaching the external should still be there.
> 
> Recordings made after attaching it may or may not show up as listings in Now Playing, but I've seen that happen with just an internal drive and what it was was like a table of contents where the pages after that were no longer there, even though there was still a table of contents that listed them.


Yeah, I figured prior shows would be safe. I didn't have much and had watched/deleted the most recent stuff. There were 15 shows, all of which I had already watched, but was saving for some reason. I never watched them a second time since being recorded and I figured they are probably available online somewhere so I decided not to worry about them and just did a restore which is a little easier process and not having to use iBored. Restore took about 10 minutes vs the 1hr to backup.

Drive is in, booted clean first shot and I'm watching it now and it's already recording off my to-do list. Setting says I have 318HD or 2776SD hours, so I did something right. 

Lets hope this is the last time I have to open that unit for a while, but...

I do need to do a soft reboot to make sure it comes back up as I didnt run wdidle on the drive, but others with the WD20EURS said it wasn't needed, we'll see. Hopefully I don't as it might be interesting using a virtual machine.

A few random thoughts:

- with the issue I had divorcing the drives it makes me wonder if my freeze then reboot weren't being caused by the external (that is after I fixed the caps)?
- this new drive is super quiet compared to the old one and that wasn't really noisy either.
- with the 2 old drives when a recording stopped or started (and I was also watching it live) there was a noticeable pause in the live watching, for maybe a good couple of seconds. Now with this new drive there is still a pause but it's pretty quick, more like a stutter. 
- thanks for everyones help! Been a while since I had to do hardware work so I'm a bit out of practice.

edit: Just performed a soft reboot and it worked as expected w/o having to run wdidle.exe on the WD20EURS.


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## crazee8 (Jan 31, 2009)

Unitron, Sorry, I didn't get your message until too late and then when I tried to respond, it said I had to wait until 10 posts. Well, this is post #9 now....


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

crazee8 said:


> Unitron, Sorry, I didn't get your message until too late and then when I tried to respond, it said I had to wait until 10 posts. Well, this is post #9 now....


Sounds like you found a solution with which you're happy, and that's what counts.

And when you reply agreeing with me, you'll have completed 10 posts and can PM and email other users and post links and images and all the stuff we cool kids do.

You can even have an impressively witty sig file.


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## crazee8 (Jan 31, 2009)

10 posts baby, I'm cool now...:up:


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## jsnow789 (Sep 29, 2003)

My Series 3 has started doing this tonight. I deleted the show (and cleaned out others). If it keeps happening I'm done with Tivo. My ROKU player streams just fine for free and if I can't find it there I wont watch it. 

I'm really lament the loss of the old Tivo. You know-the company that actually cared about it's subscribers.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

jsnow789 said:


> My Series 3 has started doing this tonight. I deleted the show (and cleaned out others). If it keeps happening I'm done with Tivo. My ROKU player streams just fine for free and if I can't find it there I wont watch it.
> 
> I'm really lament the loss of the old Tivo. You know-the company that actually cared about it's subscribers.


You do know that "capacitor plague" hit almost the entire consumer electronics industry and not just TiVo, right?

And wasn't discovered until there were millions of bogus caps in the pipeline?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

tomjackson said:


> I checked the Beta Tester brushes and found it helpful for my research works.


spammer in waiting


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## crazee8 (Jan 31, 2009)

unitron said:


> You do know that "capacitor plague" hit almost the entire consumer electronics industry and not just TiVo, right?
> 
> And wasn't discovered until there were millions of bogus caps in the pipeline?


Just curious, if you care to comment on it, what was the time frame these capacitors hit the market and what other types of electronics could these capacitors be on?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

crazee8 said:


> Just curious, if you care to comment on it, what was the time frame these capacitors hit the market and what other types of electronics could these capacitors be on?


I recommend the wikipedia article on "capacitor plague".

I had a perfectly good Abit BX-6 (Pentium II/Celeron Slot 1) motherboard (which model was first released in mid-1998) I picked up used in late 2000 which fell victim.

Of course I didn't know that was the problem at the time, so I wasted a lot of time and energy.

I've had a few other motherboards with the same problem.

The LCD monitor in front of me I grabbed out of someone's front yard where they'd left it for the garbageman.

Bad caps in the power supply, one cap kit from lcdalternatives later, and I've got an HPvs17e for under $20.

Single layer boards, like LCD monitor/TV power supplies and TiVo power supplies, are easier to unsolder the bad caps and solder in the good ones than through holes on multilayer boards like computer motherboards.

Anything that uses electrolytic capacitors is probably at risk if made from the mid '90s on, although it's the ones subject to the most stress, like in switching power supplies or CPU power converters on motherboards, that are most likely to give the most trouble.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Technically, these days, it's not really capacitor plague - that was just a bunch of caps from a chinese company who tried to steal the formula of the electrolyte (the capacitors work because one of the plates has a very thin oxide layer - the other plate couples to the oxide layer through the electrolyte). I believe it really ended in the early 2000s or so.

Doesn't mean they don't fail - they are the worst components ever aside from mechanical ones. They's so bad, you're looking at tolerance (how close they meet their specified capacitance) of +50/-20%. And those cheap chinese caps? They're in business making caps still - companies like CapXon ("CrapXon") and the like. They're not as short-lived as they were with the poorly stolen formula, but they aren't as high quality as good quality Japanese ones are. They still do dry out and are equally questionable after a few years (they're normally rated for 2000 hours at rated temperature, and their life doubles with every 10C lower they're operated at).

Of course, cheap caps don't last as long and fade from usefulness far quicker than if they used those Nippon Chemi-Con or Panasonic or RubyCon style caps. Usually what happens is they lose their ESR - switching supplies require "low ESR" caps to operate and often the cheap ones have ESRs that go out of spec wildly (easily 10x - when they're supposed to have under an 10 ohms, they can easily end up over 200+ohms).

Unless TiVo's using NOS problem caps (most likely not - these things don't usually sit around), these failures are really due to the cheap caps failing because they're lousy parts.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Worf said:


> Technically, these days, it's not really capacitor plague - that was just a bunch of caps from a chinese company who tried to steal the formula of the electrolyte (the capacitors work because one of the plates has a very thin oxide layer - the other plate couples to the oxide layer through the electrolyte). I believe it really ended in the early 2000s or so.
> 
> Doesn't mean they don't fail - they are the worst components ever aside from mechanical ones. They's so bad, you're looking at tolerance (how close they meet their specified capacitance) of +50/-20%. And those cheap chinese caps? They're in business making caps still - companies like CapXon ("CrapXon") and the like. They're not as short-lived as they were with the poorly stolen formula, but they aren't as high quality as good quality Japanese ones are. They still do dry out and are equally questionable after a few years (they're normally rated for 2000 hours at rated temperature, and their life doubles with every 10C lower they're operated at).
> 
> ...


We're talking about Series 2 and Series 3 power supplies, so it's a case of what TiVo's SUB-CONTRACTORS, who made the power supplies for them, WERE using, so it all took place after 2000, maybe 2002 to 2008, roughly.

Supposedly the incomplete formula was used at least as recently as 2007.

Also, the possibility of counterfeit capacitors exists. Anyone can print up a wrapper.

Interestingly enough, the only CapXon caps I've seen in TiVo supplies have been in the S2 DT supply, the 649 models, and that's the only S2 I have not heard of having power supply problems.


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## Golfsferr (Nov 25, 2012)

Did you, Mike, ever solve your reboot problem? Mine is starting to do it also but only occasionally so far. I'm running kickstart 54 as i type this. Your experience would be helpful, that is if you've learned anything other than what you've already posted here. Thanks


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

unitron said:


> Interestingly enough, the only CapXon caps I've seen in TiVo supplies have been in the S2 DT supply, the 649 models, and that's the only S2 I have not heard of having power supply problems.


I just replaced 10 caps in my OLED S3 yesterday. This S3 was ordered the day the S3 went on sale in 2006. Of the 10 replaced caps 4 of them were CapXon brand. The one bulging cap was one of those. I replaced another bad one 6 months ago and I'm certain that it was also a CapXon brand cap. So half the caps in my S3 were CapXon brand. The other caps were Ost brand, which are apparently also known to go bad.


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## Golfsferr (Nov 25, 2012)

My HDTCD652160 has been rebooting on it's own. I ran a "kickstart 54" with no error messages. I then opened it up and found 2 bulging disc which are shown in the attachment here. My questions to all you helpful folks are, where would I get those two capacitors and what would I ask for when I did find a place to get them. I will attempt to fix myself if it's not too complicated, which it doesn't appear to be, however I have no idea where to get them and what they are called. Or should I just buy a new power supply. Any and all advice welcome. Thanks


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

Golfsferr said:


> My HDTCD652160 has been rebooting on it's own. I ran a "kickstart 54" with no error messages. I then opened it up and found 2 bulging disc which are shown in the attachment here. My questions to all you helpful folks are, where would I get those two capacitors and what would I ask for when I did find a place to get them. I will attempt to fix myself if it's not too complicated, which it doesn't appear to be, however I have no idea where to get them and what they are called. Or should I just buy a new power supply. Any and all advice welcome. Thanks


That looks like the same power supply in my S3. There are a couple of lists of capacitors in this thread.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Golfsferr said:


> My HDTCD652160 has been rebooting on it's own. I ran a "kickstart 54" with no error messages. I then opened it up and found 2 bulging disc which are shown in the attachment here. My questions to all you helpful folks are, where would I get those two capacitors and what would I ask for when I did find a place to get them. I will attempt to fix myself if it's not too complicated, which it doesn't appear to be, however I have no idea where to get them and what they are called. Or should I just buy a new power supply. Any and all advice welcome. Thanks


They're probably 3300uF (microFarad) and rated at 10 Volts, and are in parallel across the +5V output.

Go read the thread loubob57 linked to, and any threads linked to in that thread.

Somewhere you should come across what I say about Low ESR, high temp, and don't look for them at Radio Shack.

Are you anywhere near Raleigh, NC? I gotta guy up there sells 'em.

If you replace both of them and the ones on the +12 V output as well, that's maybe $10 in parts total, not counting shipping if you mail order.

As un-soldering and resoldering jobs go, it's fairly simple, but you'll need a heavy enough wattage iron or gun to overcome the heat dissipating properties of the big areas of copper on the bottom of the board to which the capacitors leads are soldered.

In addition to the obvious screws (for which you'll need the same #10 Torx bit you need to open the case) on the inside of the chassis holding the power supply board down, there's a small dark screw that goes into the plasic of the AC input socket from the outside, just above the actual pins, and you'll need a slightly smaller Torx bit for it, maybe a #8 or #9.


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## Golfsferr (Nov 25, 2012)

Thanks so much for your time. Now I just have 
To look up what you guys suggested and then pull it off. I new 
Power supply is kind of expensive.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Golfsferr said:


> Thanks so much for your time. Now I just have
> To look up what you guys suggested and then pull it off. I new
> Power supply is kind of expensive.


Which is why it's better to repair it yourself or maybe even get it repaired locally if there's a good shop nearby.

What part of the country are you in?


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## Golfsferr (Nov 25, 2012)

If I pull one out will it tell me exactly which one it is? Or do
I have to interpret based on the dimensions
Given in the links?


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## Golfsferr (Nov 25, 2012)

I'm in the Detroit area. What kind of shop are you talking about, tv repair?
The soldering sounds a little more involved that I'm used to.


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## Golfsferr (Nov 25, 2012)

You mention that I should just replace the ones 
On the 12 v side as well but when I went to the 
Links I didn't see anything referring to 12 v. However
If I just order all the ones listed in the links, will I get
All I need if I choose to replace all as was also suggested?
Thanks


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Golfsferr said:


> If I pull one out will it tell me exactly which one it is? Or do
> I have to interpret based on the dimensions
> Given in the links?





Golfsferr said:


> I'm in the Detroit area. What kind of shop are you talking about, tv repair?
> The soldering sounds a little more involved that I'm used to.





Golfsferr said:


> You mention that I should just replace the ones
> On the 12 v side as well but when I went to the
> Links I didn't see anything referring to 12 v. However
> If I just order all the ones listed in the links, will I get
> ...


Yes, a TV repair shop, perhaps preferably a "mom and pop" type operation where there's not a lot of corporate structure to get in the way of dealing directly with whoever is going to actually do the work.

I don't know what labor rates run up there, but if you find someone you can directly work a deal with, maybe you can take the board out of the TiVo and just carry it in and get the caps swapped out for good ones real quick and comparatively cheaply.

Ask him (or who knows, maybe her) if the two bulging ones aren't indeed paralleled across the 5V out and there should be one or two on the 12 V line as well and you might as well replace them now and not have to worry about them later.

Those (the ones on the 5 and 12 outs) are the ones most famous for failing.

Or maybe a stereo repair place, but one that actually does board level repairs, not just some car stereo installer.

Exactly what kind of soldering have you done, with what kind of equipment?

Figuring out which capacitors are part of which circuit when you don't have any service literature is done by knowing enough about electronics to start with the yellow wires (12 V) or the red wires (5 V) and work your way backwards looking at the various copper traces, or "lands" on the bottom of the power supply's circuit board.

If you're looking for a shop to do it instead of yourself, tell them you've got a switching power supply with capacitor plague and you were told to make sure they knew the importance of using 105 degree Low ESR replacements by someone who knows more about these things than you do.

If they give any indication that they think any old replacement capacitor will do, you're in the wrong place.


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## Golfsferr (Nov 25, 2012)

You obviously know what you're doing, how much
Would you charge if I shipped to you. Assuming your answer
Will be, " if I do it for you I'd have to do it for the 
Dozens of others too", I still appreciate your time 
And knowledge. All the ones listed in those links, are they
All the ones I need?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Golfsferr said:


> You obviously know what you're doing, how much
> Would you charge if I shipped to you. Assuming your answer
> Will be, " if I do it for you I'd have to do it for the
> Dozens of others too", I still appreciate your time
> ...


Knowing what I'm doing is not the same as being in a position to guarantee my work long distance.

I suppose the post office could deliver just the power supply by itself for about $10-$15 each way, plus another $10 worth of caps, and we're getting near the cost of getting it done locally even if I donate my time.

Let me check with the guy in Durham to see if he got the guy in Raleigh to fix his and how that worked out and maybe I'll have somebody I'll feel comfortable referring you to.


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## Golfsferr (Nov 25, 2012)

Thank you!


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## Golfsferr (Nov 25, 2012)

I found a great priced power supply on eBay and it appears to be in great shape. So I took the plunge. Thanks for your help though.


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## George Cifranci (Jan 30, 2003)

Add me to the list I guess. :-(

Lately I will be watching a recorded show and it will totally freeze up. After a short time the TiVo will reboot. One time I rewatched that same recorded show and it froze up at the same place. I suspect it might be one of my 2 hard drives. I guess I will have to open it up and check the PSU as well. I have an original Series 3 (with the OLED display) that I bought in late Dec 2006 and when I got it I immediately replaced the 250GB drive that came with the S3 with a 750GB Seagate DB35 that I had bought from Weaknees (in fact the UPS guy delivered them both at the same time which was nice). Later I added an external drive with another 750GB Seagate DB35. I might just let it go for now and see if it keeps happening. Those drives have been running pretty much non-stop for 6 years now. It would be nice to replace them with a single 2TB. Is there a way to move everything from my two 750GB drives to a single 2TB drive?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Since you're in Columbus, OH, I'm betting you are on TWC, right? Which means all your recordings other than cable copies of local broadcast stations are copy protected and cannot TTG to your PC, which is what you would have to do to save them. Even if possible it's a time-consuming process that takes a lot of drive space on your PC. With a good (hard-wired) network your S3 will transfer at a little more than 1 MB/sec and each file has to transfer twice (to/from your PC). So you can do the math.  Of course if one of your current drives is failing, transfers will either fail or take longer as the drive has to retry the reads.


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## irepoder (Feb 24, 2010)

Golfsferr said:


> I found a great priced power supply on eBay and it appears to be in great shape. So I took the plunge. Thanks for your help though.


I'll buy your old power supply. Drop me a note.


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## Mike Richardson (Sep 24, 2012)

Golfsferr said:


> Did you, Mike, ever solve your reboot problem? Mine is starting to do it also but only occasionally so far. I'm running kickstart 54 as i type this. Your experience would be helpful, that is if you've learned anything other than what you've already posted here. Thanks


I'm a bit late replying, but it really came down to some kind of gremlins in my software. The fresh image from unitron seemed to clear up all of the problems. I have not had any problems with the TiVo since then.


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## Mike Richardson (Sep 24, 2012)

Well, I just played an old recording on my TiVo, and it's got some glitches. It's a Comcast cable recording from a couple of years ago - so it should be perfect. Instead, it's acting more like a poor signal OTA recording.

Would this indicate some problems with the hard drive?


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