# Tivo has crossed my line...



## destek (Jan 15, 2001)

Ok - I was midly annoyed with the new "see more about <this show>" when paused - but there are now ADS in that space as well.
I have been very happy with TIVO - ecstatic actually - but this has just gone too far for me now. I was willing to put up with it, even though I pay for the service, but this has crossed my line. It feels like TIVO feels empowered to put ads whereever, whenever they like on my box because I buy their service.
OK - so they still aren't making money. Do they think that by abandoning thier once-elegant user interface they will turn a profit? Perhaps they need to do some GM-style downsizing and pursue a business model for a company that isn't the size of southern Europe. Believe me, someone could figure out how to run that company on about 500 employees out of an office suite in Dayton, Ohio. Tivo is going to become known as an ad-box and that officially makes me a former-fan. 
Sorry Tivo, you had me there for a long time - but you've blown it. You don't improve your business by annoying your customers!

Des


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## sshedlock (May 14, 2004)

Bye!


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

destek said:


> Ok - I was midly annoyed with the new "see more about <this show>" when paused - but there are now ADS in that space as well.
> I have been very happy with TIVO - ecstatic actually - but this has just gone too far for me now. I was willing to put up with it, even though I pay for the service, but this has crossed my line. It feels like TIVO feels empowered to put ads whereever, whenever they like on my box because I buy their service.
> OK - so they still aren't making money. Do they think that by abandoning thier once-elegant user interface they will turn a profit? Perhaps they need to do some GM-style downsizing and pursue a business model for a company that isn't the size of southern Europe. Believe me, someone could figure out how to run that company on about 500 employees out of an office suite in Dayton, Ohio. Tivo is going to become known as an ad-box and that officially makes me a former-fan.
> Sorry Tivo, you had me there for a long time - but you've blown it. You don't improve your business by annoying your customers!
> ...


Tivo rep Jessica Loebig told me she cares and wants to here from customers who are bothered with this and gave me her email. Tell her [email protected]


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## hunter69 (Feb 9, 2002)

Your cable company inserts adds into shows on many of the networks that you watch, even though you pay (probably a lot of $) for the channels. 

Have you canceled your home cable service yet?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

destek said:


> Ok - I was midly annoyed with the new "see more about <this show>" when paused - but there are now ADS in that space as well.
> I have been very happy with TIVO - ecstatic actually - but this has just gone too far for me now. I was willing to put up with it, even though I pay for the service, but this has crossed my line. It feels like TIVO feels empowered to put ads whereever, whenever they like on my box because I buy their service.
> OK - so they still aren't making money. Do they think that by abandoning thier once-elegant user interface they will turn a profit? Perhaps they need to do some GM-style downsizing and pursue a business model for a company that isn't the size of southern Europe. Believe me, someone could figure out how to run that company on about 500 employees out of an office suite in Dayton, Ohio. Tivo is going to become known as an ad-box and that officially makes me a former-fan.
> Sorry Tivo, you had me there for a long time - but you've blown it. You don't improve your business by annoying your customers!
> ...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Bierboy said:


>


Absolutely.

Also, folks do need to keep in mind that there may not be any profitable business model for TiVo. The choice may between these subtle ads and no more stand-alone TiVo service.


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## mearlus (Nov 1, 2004)

I just don't get it. I bet users like this are the same ones who call and complain/swear at/threaten their ISP's when they get spam emails.

Same simple solution applies: ignore it

Or if you want to help benefit Tivo, view an ad every once and awhile, I know I do. I for one would rather see a few ads (not really see as I've trained myself it ignore banner ads on the web as well as on the Tivo) vs paying a lot more for service.

If it bothers you so much maybe you should suggest to Tivo that they offer an Ad-free tier for their subscription that is double what you'd pay now.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

destek said:


> Ok - I was midly annoyed with the new "see more about <this show>" when paused - but there are now ADS in that space as well.
> I have been very happy with TIVO - ecstatic actually - but this has just gone too far for me now. I was willing to put up with it, even though I pay for the service, but this has crossed my line. It feels like TIVO feels empowered to put ads whereever, whenever they like on my box because I buy their service.
> OK - so they still aren't making money. Do they think that by abandoning thier once-elegant user interface they will turn a profit? Perhaps they need to do some GM-style downsizing and pursue a business model for a company that isn't the size of southern Europe. Believe me, someone could figure out how to run that company on about 500 employees out of an office suite in Dayton, Ohio. Tivo is going to become known as an ad-box and that officially makes me a former-fan.
> Sorry Tivo, you had me there for a long time - but you've blown it. You don't improve your business by annoying your customers!
> ...


You should see how many ads a cable dvr has. There dvr has ads every where.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

I believe this is the first time TiVo has made the ad the default action however. Clearly, they should just remove the "More about" and leave the ad since that is their main intention. There's no need trying to disguise it.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

Moxi to the rescue.. LOL. Plus I have seen many more DVR's in development that come without the anoying ads. Seems there is money in Video Downloads, Music Downloads, Game Downloads, etc.. so much so.. that ads don't have to be plastered all over the place on these DVRs. So help really is on the way and it is just a minor waiting game at this point unless the Moxi fits your bill. Personally, I'd rather see Tivo die as a company I had fond memories for than live on as a cursed company that people say, "Oh man, you'r stuck with Tivo". I have 2 DVR's and will jump ship as soon as my contract runs out. The ads thrown in my face make me wanna puke daily.

Ads will sink Tivo.. mark my words.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

destek said:


> Tivo is going to become known as an ad-box and that officially makes me a former-fan.
> 
> Des


Regretfully there's some truth to this. But it's not too late.



dgf123 said:


> Tivo rep Jessica Loebig told me she cares and wants to hear from customers who are bothered with this and gave me her email. Tell her (@) [email protected]


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## techmonkey (Jan 13, 2009)

Well you are entitled to leave at any time but to get away from all ads you are going to have to quit driving, cancel any newspapers, cancel magazine subscriptions, not check email, actually not even go online, shall I go on?


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

Where are you going to go? Back to a cable box? Drop 800 clams for a MOXI when you have a perfectly good working TiVo? Your not going anywhere!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Don't forget to make sure you're telling them why you're leaving.

Let us know what you bought for a replacement.


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## urwathrtz (Jan 18, 2008)

Hey call me crazy (YOU'RE CRAZY!!!), but when the "see more about" pops up I do one of three things :
1. Press the down arrow on the remote 
2. Press clear on the remote
3. Ignore it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

While I agree that these ads are very annoying and intrusive (to me) there really is no alternative to TiVo at the moment. Most cable DVRs have limited space and lack the features I've grown accustom to with TiVo, particularly the network features. Moxi is expensive and I really dislike their UI. (I use to have a cable DVR with Moxi) And MCE PCs are expensive, power hungry and for the most part lack CableCARD support.

See this is where lack of competition hurts consumers. If there were a half dozen other options out there with similar feature sets TiVo would have to think twice about doing these kinds of things. But when their only real competition is a limited, and also ad riddled, cable DVR they pretty much have free reign to do whatever they want. I don't like it, but that's just the way it is right now.

Dan


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

The problem that many in this thread fail to realize is that , Tivo is a subscription service. Therefore the subscribers should have a say in whats going on, if it were free with Ads thats another story. But the people attitudes in this thread and board, show that tivo isnt going to be top dog too much longer.


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## Nugent (Jan 20, 2004)

hunter69 said:


> Your cable company inserts adds into shows on many of the networks that you watch, even though you pay (probably a lot of $) for the channels.
> 
> Have you canceled your home cable service yet?


Cable TV - check
Satellite Tv - check
POTS - check
Newspaper - check (sort of - they called and made a ridiculous offer, which I accepted)
Do not call - check
Snail mail - check (http://www.catalogchoice.org)
Email - check (spam filter)
Grocery store with monitors blaring ads - check
Movies - check


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

you forgot 

Gas station -check
doctors office- check
highways -check


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Videodrome said:


> you forgot
> 
> Gas station -check
> doctors office- check
> highways -check


Which gets me to thinking, you know the Bank's name on the check is really advertising, since all that is needed for routing/verifying the check is in the routing code.

So:

check- check


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## Ruger (May 25, 2005)

mearlus said:


> Same simple solution applies: ignore it


Wow what a great idea. If something bothers you - don't try to fix it - don't try to make matters better. Ignore it. If you close your eyes, wish hard enough, and just believe in unicorns and rainbows, it might just go away!


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## mearlus (Nov 1, 2004)

Ruger said:


> Wow what a great idea. If something bothers you - don't try to fix it - don't try to make matters better. Ignore it. If you close your eyes, wish hard enough, and just believe in unicorns and rainbows, it might just go away!


Yes ignoring something is the same as believing in something that doesn't exist... However, I do believe in rainbows!


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## Berryman1979 (Mar 4, 2009)

I'll pay shipping if you want to send the box my way.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Nugent said:


> Cable TV - check
> Satellite Tv - check
> POTS - check
> Newspaper - check (sort of - they called and made a ridiculous offer, which I accepted)
> ...





Videodrome said:


> you forgot
> 
> Gas station -check
> doctors office- check
> highways -check


The worst part of all this advertising, including TiVo, is that we all pay for it. It's good if it's something you use, of course - if you're a football fan, it's good for you that every time I buy Campbell's Chunky soup, I pay part of a football player's salary, because it makes you have to pay less for the ticket/TV channel (incredibly enough, even though I bet it doesn't feel that way!) since Campbell's pay the NFL to advertise there.

Ads are a way to rake in the big bucks by making a lot of people pay very little money lots of times. It's a system that I don't think is particularly good for actually selling products though, but I doubt anyone selling ads will want to change it - for them it's great.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> Moxi to the rescue....


Moxi this...Moxi that....BS!! You're drinking the Kool-Aid if you think the day will never come when that box has ads, too.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

bschuler2007 said:


> Moxi to the rescue.. Ads will sink Tivo.. mark my words.


As opposed to lack of on-going revenue sinking moxi.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Moxi this...Moxi that....BS!! You're drinking the Kool-Aid if you think the day will never come when that box has ads, too.


I'm not sure the Moxi box will be around long enough to get ads.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

rainwater said:


> I believe this is the first time TiVo has made the ad the default action however. Clearly, they should just remove the "More about" and leave the ad since that is their main intention. There's no need trying to disguise it.


+1! "More about ..." doesn't make any sense to me on the pause screen. It is not a logical placement, and it just doesn't belong there. For that reason, I actually find it more annoying than the ad.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

spocko said:


> +1! "More about ..." doesn't make any sense to me on the pause screen. It is not a logical placement, and it just doesn't belong there. For that reason, I actually find it more annoying than the ad.


Yeah, when I want to know more about a program, the first thing I'd think to do, with a tivo, is use the *Info* button on the remote, *not* the pause button.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

What are examples of other home entertainment or computing devices that have advertising as part of the user interface? I can't think of any. Not my DVD player, not my VCR, not my A/V receiver, not my speakers, not the radio in any car; not Windows, not Mac OS X, not Linux.



Google searches
ebay auction searches
lots of business plans were launched to get a free internet device out there with ads
every piece of software that tries to gain control of default programs and self-update or adds a useless shortcut/system tray
logos as default screen savers
email campaigns after registering devices


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

Moxi being 'round long enough? Have u seen used TivoHD prices on Ebay lately? Talk about dumping products..Sheesh! I think cheap media extenders for every room and expensive head units w/o subscriptions and ads are the way to go. Sorry Tivo.. but Moxi, et al, have ya beat. The ads are just TOO INTRUSIVE!

Overall, I think Tivo will be bought by Microsoft or Sony to add into the next gen PS3 or Xbox360. The lure of TV + pay per view/use of Movies, Games, Music, etc.. on one box is just way too high. If you offer that and still need advertising to make money.. shame on you!

Tivo at this point is patents.. nothing more.

------------------------------

READ MORE ON THIS POST BY CLICKING HERE

------------------------------

WATCH "Mother and Son lovefest 2009" on NAMBLA TV this summer.
Advertise on Tivo and piss off people, ask me how
New summer update ads more ads.. Be first by requesting it at Tivo.com
How are ads annoying? I'm giving you INFO for free! Read more here.
Get your boobs done in time for summer at Boobies.com


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

gonzotek said:


> Yeah, when I want to know more about a program, the first thing I'd think to do, with a tivo, is use the *Info* button on the remote, *not* the pause button.


if I want to know about that episode yes I use info button

if I want to find out what else we saw that guest star in and can not put our finger on it - then pause more info about - takes us to that added information and more very easily. I make good use of more about.

Now I am under no illusions it was put there as they were figuring out other ways to show us ads - but I must say it is still fairly unobtrusive to me. I have always hit clear if I pause to see the screen and actually learned that a simple FF right will do it with slightly less finger exertion.

Will Moxi rise up base on "no ads" - I doubt it.
Will TiVo fall based on ads - again I doubt it. Unless people start ditching subs then ads are revenue for TiVo and so far I have not seen evidence of significant subs lost to the ads in the interface.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> I think cheap media extenders for every room and expensive head units w/o subscriptions and ads are the way to go.


you really think ads are the biggest component of that or do you think the 700$ a box if you go lifetime is the reason people look into cheaper things like media extenders?

PS - xbox 360 and things like AppleTV have figured out how to sell specific episodes/movies as downloads - why on earth would they spend money on a way for people to record them without paying?


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

minckster said:


> What are examples of other _home entertainment_ or _computing_ devices that have advertising as part of the user interface? .


 Pop-up ads, banners on websites, junk mail, spam, adware...


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

bschuler2007 said:


> Moxi being 'round long enough? Have u seen used TivoHD prices on Ebay lately? Talk about dumping products..Sheesh! I think cheap media extenders for every room and expensive head units w/o subscriptions and ads are the way to go. Sorry Tivo.. but Moxi, et al, have ya beat. The ads are just TOO INTRUSIVE!


If your the Moxi man no need for you to be here either, you can follow the OP outta here.
Watch the door on your way out!


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## xboard07 (Dec 16, 2007)

Amazing how many people here get their knickers in a twist when someone mentions Moxi.


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## michael new (Jan 13, 2006)

agree, try cable dvr for a year and then tell me how much Tivo sucks.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> if I want to find out what else we saw that guest star in and can not put our finger on it - then pause more info about - takes us to that added information and more very easily. I make good use of more about.


But don't you think that it would be more intuitively placed as a sub menu of the info screen instead of just being some random button that pops up when you push pause?

If it was truly meant to be a feature then the current placement of the "more info" button is really bad UI design. However we all know that it was never intended to be a real feature. It's simply a placeholder for an ad. The only reason they put the "more info" button there at all is so that it wouldn't look so jarring and out of place when there was actually an ad available. (since advertisers come and go and there isn't always an ad to put there)

The problem with these ads is that they are a very slippery slope. I mean what's to stop them from replacing that one line ad under the "more info" button with a full screen graphic advertisement? Or putting a banner ad at the top/bottom of every screen? Just look at the history. The TiVo Central ad started as a one line ad with a simple star next to it. Now it's capable of holding a graphical banner at least twice the size of a line of text. And the "thumbs up for more..." feature, which they originally designed to make it easier to schedule new shows, has now morphed into something capable of displaying a nearly full screen graphic ad over playing video. (ala Celebrity Apprentice)

I understand that they need to make money, but it's just getting to be a bit too much.

Dan


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Now I am under no illusions it was put there as they were figuring out other ways to show us ads - but I must say it is still fairly unobtrusive to me.





Dan203 said:


> But don't you think that it would be more intuitively placed as a sub menu of the info screen instead of just being some random button that pops up when you push pause?
> 
> If it was truly meant to be a feature then the current placement of the "more info" button is really bad UI design. However we all know that it was never intended to be a real feature. It's simply a placeholder for an ad.


I already agree as to why they put it there 

it could be a submenu under info screen, but those submenus tend to be forgotten and not used. I actually think it is better UI design to have "more about" in a place people will see it and use it. The more about does stay even if an ad is present for the show.

Now of course they could drop the ads on the pause and I would be just fine with that, never argued that I _wanted _ ads on pause - just that for me they do not really get in the way.

PS - you forgot the most important part of the ad history - way back they tried an interstitial ad that would indeed cover the full screen before you got to now playing, I think, and you had to hit a button to move on.
The hue and cry was far greater over that and it was dropped never to be seen again. TiVo is well aware they are moving along a fine line between user apathy to do anything real about it and significant sub loss. They are more aware then we of the slippery footing they have right now.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> if I want to know about that episode yes I use info button
> 
> if I want to find out what else we saw that guest star in and can not put our finger on it - then pause more info about - takes us to that added information and more very easily. I make good use of more about.
> 
> ...


My point was (and is) that I really don't see how *Pause* is an intuitive button to use to get *info*, especially when the remotes feature an *Info* button. I wasn't commenting on the advertising or on the usefulness of the "More about" feature. It is, at least occasionally, useful. And ads are ads, I can't say anything there that hasn't been repeated ad nauseum in the forums already. But neither of those facts change the lack of intuition I have for using the Pause button for the function of finding out something about a program.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Joe01880 said:


> Where are you going to go? Back to a cable box? Drop 800 clams for a MOXI when you have a perfectly good working TiVo? Your not going anywhere!


Yeah, he's not going anywhere.
It took him six months to even notice these ads, so it can't be that bad.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

scandia101 said:


> Yeah, he's not going anywhere.
> It took him six months to even notice these ads, so it can't be that bad.


The S2 TiVos have had these ads for a while now, but the S3 TiVos only just recently got them. In fact the software might actually still be in the process of rolling out, so he may have just got the software today for all we know.

Dan


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

MickeS said:


> The worst part of all this advertising, including TiVo, is that we all pay for it.


How much more would we pay if there weren't ads?


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

I have always been a proponent of simply ignoring the ads on TiVo, but the new pop-up on pause is a little too "in your face" for me. They do cross the line for me, but I don't plan on canceling TiVo service over it, as there is no viable alternative.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

gonzotek said:


> My point was (and is) that I really don't see how *Pause* is an intuitive button to use to get *info*, especially when the remotes feature an *Info* button.


the info button may be intuitive but I am reasonably certain the pause button will have more people actually use "more about" (espeically when you consider the vast majority of users who do not read this forum) and since that will tie into the new TiVo search - then the number of people using the "more about" is the goal versus where it should intuitively be placed.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> How much more would we pay if there weren't ads?


Probably not much more. TiVo still hasn't developed a ad system that is very effective yet. This is why you see ads thrown throughout the UI. Even the CEO has mentioned several times that they haven't found the one big solution. They are just throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

At one time in my life I had a phonograph, an eight track player, a cassette player , a cd player , a beta max player, a VHS player, an Atari, a nintendo, a nintendo 64, a commodore computer, a replay TV, and on and on it goes. 
Some day all of us and yes even you die hard tivo fans on this site will be able to say I used to have a tivo. Tivo is a software pioneer and a seller of guide data and now they want to be a content provider. The only problem is that they want to sell content that is commercials. That is the reason most people went with tivo in the first place to avoid those annoying ads. Tivo should stick with selling software and guide data and leave the content and commercials to the TV studios. I have purchased a moxi HD dvr and I am very satisfied with it at this time I also have a cox SA8300 dvr and a series 3 tivo and a series 2 tivo. (I paid $800.00 for my series 3 and that's the same price for the Moxi.) I talked with tivo about why I was changing and was put in touch with a tivo rep who says she cares about customer feedback so all complaints should go to her Jessica [email protected].


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## chrispitude (Apr 23, 2005)

Even though advertising may be prevalent in every day life, it doesn't mean it doesn't annoy me when Tivo starts filling up my screen with it. I bought a Tivo to get away from this crap (skipping commercials).

- Chris


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

dgf123 said:


> That is the reason most people went with tivo in the first place to avoid those annoying ads.


I went with Tivo because I wanted to easily record programming that I could watch when I wanted to watch it. How do you know why most people went with Tivo? Did you ask them? You didn't ask me.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the info button may be intuitive but I am reasonably certain the pause button will have more people actually use "more about" (espeically when you consider the vast majority of users who do not read this forum) and since that will tie into the new TiVo search - then the number of people using the "more about" is the goal versus where it should intuitively be placed.


I don't get that. You admit that "more about" is not intuitively placed, but you say that it's justified by giving greater exposure to Tivo Search. How does usage of Tivo Search directly benefit Tivo?

The only technical motivation I can think of for having "more about" on pause is because "more about" takes you away from the program you are watching. The "Info" panel is overlaid on top of the current program while it plays, but "more about" can not be. However I would still argue that "more about" during pause is not intuitive and is poor UI design. Putting it as an option under Info is clearly more intuitive. The current program could be automatically paused if the "more about" option was selected.


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## hongcho (Nov 26, 2003)

orangeboy said:


> I went with Tivo because I wanted to easily record programming that I could watch when I wanted to watch it. How do you know why most people went with Tivo? Did you ask them? You didn't ask me.


I agree. The main reason for having a DVR for me is to not worry about if I would miss my favorite shows. Saving time while viewing the shows are the second.

Hong.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> I went with Tivo because I wanted to easily record programming that I could watch when I wanted to watch it. How do you know why most people went with Tivo? Did you ask them? You didn't ask me.


I had a replay tv when it first came out and replay tv and tivos first ads were focused on skipping adds!


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## mec1991 (Nov 5, 2004)

We all have different reasons why we bought TiVo in the first place. In my case I was so PO'd at trying to watch a Clint Eastwood movie back in 2001 I turned the TV off and went out, to Best Buy IIRC, and bought one within the hour. The station ran the opening credits then went to a batch of commercials, ran a little of the movie then went back to more commercials at 10 after the hour, again at 20 after the hour, and again at 30 minutes after. Can't recall if it was a local Dallas station or a cable one but I had never seen anything like that beforehand.

So yes, for me, avoiding the over commercialization was the initial reason. I soon learned to love the season passes, wishlist feature, etc.

Nowadays I find myself using my TiVos less and less, thanks to you guys teaching me about torrents. (A year ago I thought that only meant a lot of rain. ) 

I am seriously considering purchasing the eyeTV to use with my Macbook. It's not perfect and not for everyone but I think it and torrents will suffice for my personal viewing habits. 

I wish TiVo would give me the option of no ads for say, 10 bucks a month more as I would gladly pay it. But they just don't seem interested in giving us a choice.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> See this is where lack of competition hurts consumers.


And how do we get more competition? Increased profit motive. In other words, *more *people willing to pay *more*.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Videodrome said:


> tivo isnt going to be top dog too much longer.


Easy to claim, but there is no foundation for your ridiculous pronouncement.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

MickeS said:


> It's a system that I don't think is particularly good for actually selling products though


I suppose what's more important is whether it is a good way for paying for television programs. Or would you prefer to have all broadcast television programs moved to Pay-per-View, perhaps at $1 per episode.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

xboard07 said:


> Amazing how many people here get their knickers in a twist when someone mentions Moxi.


Right and there will be more added soon. Samsung is do out soon, and Sony usually follows samsung , so Tivo better get there house in order.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

The advertisement on pause is easy to eliminate if you've got a universal remote like a Harmony. You simply create a pause-clear macro (Harmony calls them sequences) and stick it on the pause button. You'll never see the pause ad again.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

dgf123 said:


> I had a replay tv when it first came out and replay tv and tivos first ads were focused on skipping adds!


Actually, they were focused on skipping televised comercials. TiVo does not force you to click on any of the ad banners.


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## webin (Feb 13, 2008)

Many of us (some of us? a few of us?) agree that ads are necessary evil to improve Tivo's bottom line and help them stay in business. The real arguement I see people complaining about where ads show up. It's as if the ads are hacked into a pre-existing UI, and the result is unsightly and obtrusive.

So let's assume Tivo is developing a new, high def user interface for the Series 4 (all pure speculation). Assuming this interface will include ads, where should they show up so as to be visible enough to attract advertisers, but not so in-your-face that the viewers complain?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bicker said:


> And how do we get more competition? Increased profit motive. In other words, *more *people willing to pay *more*.


OK, what does that have to do with ads? You think putting ads all over the UI is going to get *more* people to pay *more* money? I don't. If anything it's going to scare customers away and make those who remain want to pay _less_ money.

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

webin said:


> So let's assume Tivo is developing a new, high def user interface for the Series 4 (all pure speculation). Assuming this interface will include ads, where should they show up so as to be visible enough to attract advertisers, but not so in-your-face that the viewers complain?


If TiVo Search is any indication of what an updated UI is going to look like then I think there are going to be ads in that top bar where they currently put pictures of related programs.

Dan


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Do we really need another thread about this?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bicker said:


> Easy to claim, but there is no foundation for your ridiculous pronouncement.


By what measure is TiVo top dog now? Certainly not profitablilty nor number of units deployed...


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Will TiVo fall based on ads - again I doubt it. Unless people start ditching subs then ads are revenue for TiVo and so far I have not seen evidence of significant subs lost to the ads in the interface.


People are ditching TiVo subs. Of course we don't know what a major reason is, but one can speculate that ads are at least one of the factors why Tivo is losing net subscribers.
There is also no evidence (at least on TiVo SEC filings) that TiVo makes any money on ads. Even if they do, it is peanuts because 1.5 million subs (impressions) is not enough to get material income from the ad sales.
The only real reason TiVo added ads is Wall Street hype. TiVo has been running on hype since day 1. But by now they just out of ideas on how to tell shareholders about the brighter future. They lose subs, they lose money, there is more competition, Dish is coming up with VIP922 equivalent for cable, and the only path to future profitability they could come up with was to tell shareholders that they will be selling ads.
As Bicker said, perhaps there isn't any business model that could make TiVo profitable, but to stay afloat they have to come up with some hype. They can't tell Wall Street that they not going to be profitable ever.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

dgf123 said:


> Some day all of us and yes even you die hard tivo fans on this site will be able to say I used to have a tivo.


Your not a Die Hard TiVo fan being your a member of the TiVo community website?



dgf123 said:


> The only problem is that they want to sell content that is commercials. That is the reason most people went with tivo in the first place to avoid those annoying ads.


I had TiVo when DirecTV first came out with it, when i cancelled DirecTV i missed the TiVo aspects of it. Years later i have returned to TiVo because i want the reliablility and function i missed. To my suprise the TiVO HD is greatly improved over what i was use to and missed and its a far site better then FiOS DVR's. Sure these ads may be annoying to some but if one is *SO *lazy as to not push the soft and easy to reach with a little motion of your thumb down arrow maybe TV isnt your thing.



dgf123 said:


> I was changing and was put in touch with a tivo rep who says she cares about customer feedback so all complaints should go to her Jessica [email protected].


Whats she going to say, she coluld care less?


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## fred2 (Jan 20, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> if I want to know about that episode yes I use info button
> 
> Will TiVo fall based on ads - again I doubt it. Unless people start ditching subs then ads are revenue for TiVo and so far I have not seen evidence of significant subs lost to the ads in the interface.


But I am one who is now much less inclined to recommend Tivo to friends who want recording devices both to record shows but also to reduce the commercial load. Now Tivo has added their own style. And like Late Night Movie channels, the commercials are tacky - that "band" or whatever the heck, it really irritating.

Friends had already been disinclined because of the additional costs monthly but I suggested Lifetime could fix that. But they also asked about commercials. Now my response will be different.

Does anyone know if that posted email address is a good one for complaints. I don't want to send an email and get on some spam list.


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## Gavroche (May 27, 2007)

I'd actually be cool with even MORE ads on my Tivo if it also meant that the subscription prices could come down. Unfortunately the trends appears to be more ads and higher prices.


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## fred2 (Jan 20, 2006)

webin said:


> Many of us (some of us? a few of us?) agree that ads are necessary evil to improve Tivo's bottom line and help them stay in business. The real arguement I see people complaining about where ads show up. It's as if the ads are hacked into a pre-existing UI, and the result is unsightly and obtrusive.
> 
> So let's assume Tivo is developing a new, high def user interface for the Series 4 (all pure speculation). Assuming this interface will include ads, where should they show up so as to be visible enough to attract advertisers, but not so in-your-face that the viewers complain?


I for one am not interested in beta testing where tivo should place ads. They should not place ads on my viewing screen.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

fred2 said:


> But I am one who is now much less inclined to recommend Tivo to friends who want recording devices both to record shows but also to reduce the commercial load. Now Tivo has added their own style. And like Late Night Movie channels, the commercials are tacky - that "band" or whatever the heck, it really irritating.
> 
> Friends had already been disinclined because of the additional costs monthly but I suggested Lifetime could fix that. But they also asked about commercials. Now my response will be different.
> 
> Does anyone know if that posted email address is a good one for complaints. I don't want to send an email and get on some spam list.


Hi David,

Thank you for following up. I will provide your feedback to the appropriate teams, as it is good to hear the customer perspective.

Best,

Jessica

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 6:07 PM
To: Jessica Loebig
Subject: RE: TiVo follow up

Tivo should give out an e-mail address so their customers can tell them how they feel about new "features" such as the "more info" pop up. All over the Internet people are getting disgusted with tivo and this pop up. Why can't the customer just turn it off? This is so anoying to many people and when I called customer service about it they say that there are more adds coming and I should get used to it! I wont be loyal to tivo any longer!

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 9:00 PM , Jessica Loebig wrote:

Hi David,

I received your below testimonial, and am sorry to hear your feelings 
of TiVo customer care. I want to also see if there was any additional 
follow up I could provide as we would like to get more insight on the 
issues that caused you to feel this way? I am glad to set up a call as 
needed to discuss.

It is always good for us to hear feedback from customers as we are 
constantly working to improve the TiVo experience be it customer 
service or product related.

Again, please feel free to contact me if you have any additional 
requests.

Best Regards,

Jessica Loebig
Public Relations Coordinator
TiVo Inc.

My tivo

"My TiVo used to be a great machine. Now every time I press the pause 
button I see more info and I say out loud TIVO SUCKS! and every time I 
get the chance to tell some one about TiVo I am happy to tell them to 
go with MOXI because TIVO DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THEIR CUSTOMERS!


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

> My tivo
> 
> "My TiVo used to be a great machine. Now every time I press the pause
> button I see more info and I say out loud TIVO SUCKS! and every time I
> ...


That was the feedback you sent them?! Very mature and proper sounding there chief, I'm sure they'll get right on that.

You do realize that both her responses were likely canned, and simply done to get you to go away.


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## jim _h (Nov 25, 2006)

I agree with the posters who found that these new ads have crossed a line. It's something about the placement, the way they're interleaved with the menu selections relating to what you're actually doing - you feel violated because you can't avoid looking at them and reading them. 

This is a very bad idea. I found it instantly changed my feelings about Tivo. Immediately I started thinking about the monthly fee, and whether it's time to look at alternatives again. When I find myself paying to have ads sprayed in my face, I feel like a chump.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Removing the three words "you feel violated" completely changes the message I think you intended:



jim _h said:


> It's something about the placement, the way they're interleaved with the menu selections relating to what you're actually doing -





jim _h said:


> ...because you can't avoid looking at them and reading them.


Using such words will probably not help the cause of getting the ads removed. Advertisers (and Tivo) are probably thinking "mission accomplished!"


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## destek (Jan 15, 2001)

To all those advising "ignore it" I say you are clueless!
The reason they placed the ad where they did is because people are ignoring them elsewhere. If you ignore the whisper they will talk. If you ignore the talk they will shout. If you ignore the shout they will hit you. If you ignore....
This feels like desperation because TIVO is not a stupid company and they have to know people dislike these ad placements. They have clearly and actively chosen to spend a sizable chunk of good-will-capital in order to get something in return. It remains to be seen what that "something" is. Is it continued investment from people who are seeing them try new ways to raise revenue? Is it that they actually can make millions by charging for the ads? Is it just a suffocating enterprise bouncing around gasping for air?
If TIVO is goinng to succeed - it's time to say "thanks for all the fish" - leave the planet and let someone right-size the company.
Ads on the radio, tv, billboards, and on web sites are not analogous to the ads now on TIVO. Radio is free, TV is free, billboards are on real-estate I did not pay for. If Microsoft made me look at an ad every time I opened Excel, or Word it would be what TIVO is doing here. 
OK - I think TIVO was doing OK with the ads - they were getting a little intrusive but I was willing to tarry on. As I said originally though - this new ad placement crosses a line and they have begun to punish me for ignoring the ads in the more subtle places. Why? It's ironic that TIVO is part of the generation of Ad-Killers that took an opportunistic role in consumers desire to skip ads. This happened not that long after the National Association of Broadcasters abandoned their guidelines limiting the number of ads in a 30 minute timeslot. TIVO now finds themselves having to rely on a business model that's actually contrary to the idea from which they were conceived. Perhaps some clever sole will invent a device that removes ads from TIVO. Eventually though they will likely have to use ads to support this new service...

Des


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## destek (Jan 15, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> Do we really need another thread about this?


Yes we do.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

destek said:


> To all those advising "ignore it" I say you are clueless!


SO cancel, you don't need to make it your lifes mission to convince everyone on the Internet



destek said:


> Yes we do.


Yes, because the other half dozen threads didn't convince everyone they were wrong, this one is SURE to work!


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

Langree said:


> That was the feedback you sent them?! Very mature and proper sounding there chief, I'm sure they'll get right on that.
> 
> You do realize that both her responses were likely canned, and simply done to get you to go away.


I have turned down two seperate invites to do tivo beta testing and I have had numerous contacts with tivo about many different subjects. Jessicas response was just that her response. I don't see any one else from tivo giving anyone their email and wanting to set up phone conversations to discuss problems. I have given the original poster and the others who have a problem with tivos ads a valid tivo email to voice thier concerns to.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mearlus said:


> If it bothers you so much maybe you should suggest to Tivo that they offer an Ad-free tier for their subscription that is double what you'd pay now.


I would be thrilled to pay it, but only on one condition: TiVo signs a contract with every advertiser requiring them to reduce the cost of any items purchased by me by a prorate based upon TiVo refunding them the cost of my subscription.

<cough>

Of course, such a solution is ridiculously unworkable. I would vastly prefer they simply raise their rates. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and it's going to cost me one way or another. I prefer to pay up-front. It's probably cheaper in the long run, but even if not, I absolutely detest hidden costs.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Gavroche said:


> I'd actually be cool with even MORE ads on my Tivo if it also meant that the subscription prices could come down. Unfortunately the trends appears to be more ads and higher prices.


In gawd's name *WHY!!!???* Are you of the totally moronic notion it would somehow cost you less? Guess again. It probably costs you more. 'As likely as not, much, much more. Unless you never buy anything, ever, it certainly isn't going to save you anything.


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## destek (Jan 15, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> SO cancel, you don't need to make it your lifes mission to convince everyone on the Internet


No - I will complain. If you don't want to listen then - well, you can take the advice to ignore it. I want TIVO to change this. I refuse to be French and surrender to the absurd.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

So what is the alternative? Have Tivo tell the advertisers "No, we don't want your money. We can just make the monthly subscription rate higher, and completely remove Lifetime Subscription offers, because in the long run those hurt us. We know we won't get any new customers because we'll have to charge so much for the service without your advertising dollars, but we can squeeze what we can out of our current subscribers who love us because we removed the one line of text when they hit pause, and the one line of text in the Now Playing List."

Gimme a <expletive deleted> break!


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

gonzotek said:


> Yeah, when I want to know more about a program, the first thing I'd think to do, with a tivo, is use the *Info* button on the remote, *not* the pause button.


Sheesh, don't give them any more ideas.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> So what is the alternative? Have Tivo tell the advertisers "No, we don't want your money. We can just make the monthly subscription rate higher, and completely remove Lifetime Subscription offers, because in the long run those hurt us. We know we won't get any new customers because we'll have to charge so much for the service without your advertising dollars, but we can squeeze what we can out of our current subscribers who love us because we removed the one line of text when they hit pause, and the one line of text in the Now Playing List."
> 
> Gimme a <expletive deleted> break!


 Why should we give you a break? And why should we give tivo a break? Why should there be an alternative? Find out who your customers are and what your customers want and give that to them for a mutually agreed upon price. As costs go up you may need to raise your prices but you should never change the product you sold in the first place with out renegotiating the price.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

destek said:


> This feels like desperation because TIVO is not a stupid company and they have to know people dislike these ad placements.


I disagree.

I think TiVo is a stupid company in that their fearless leader isn't innovating, he's merely doing what he is familiar and comfortable with, viz advertising. Here are some snippets from his bio:


Chairman and CEO of PRIMEDIA, Inc. ... the leading targeted media company in the United States. ... PRIMEDIA published some 200 magazines, operated more than 400 websites, and owned a wide range of television and video businesses

President of NBC Cable and Executive Vice President of NBC

co-chairman of the Arts and Entertainment, and History Channels

responsible for overseeing many other cable channels including Court TV, Bravo, American Movie Classics, Independent Film Channel, the National Geographic Channel, and numerous regional sports channels

What does all that have in common? What pays the bills? *ADVERTISING, ADVERTISING, and more ADVERTISING!*

They say a fish rots from the head down, so we shouldn't be surprised that this is the direction that TiVo is taking.

P.S. Upon re-reading the above, I think that Rogers is TiVo's John Sculley. The antithesis of Steve Jobs. We want technical innovation; instead he wants to sell us sugar water.


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## SGR215 (Jan 20, 2004)

For some reason there's a Tivo fan club that likes to immediately put down anyone who says anything negative about Tivo; even if it ultimately might make Tivo better off in the long run by listening to these ever-growing complaints.

Tivo is great and I'm a huge fan but it doesn't make me any less of a fan to point out when Tivo makes what I feel to be mistakes. Obviously, you're entitled to disagree with me but these childish insults only further prove my point. I pay my Tivo bill just like anyone else. These ads, in my opinion of course, cheapen Tivo's image.

As far as cable companies inserting ads; you're forgetting that Tivo's primary function is to accomplish two things;

a. Record shows with the ability to watch them later

b. Avoid commercials (AKA Advertisements)

All of us purchased a Tivo because of these two most important features; or at least originally when Tivo was first released. Ironically, most of those who insult people who question these ads probably have the 30-second hack activated; not because they enjoy randomly skipping scenes in shows but because they want to *avoid advertisements*.

I personally purchased my Tivo to avoid ads and have no intention of ever clicking any ads displayed. Because of this we should be given the option to disable these ads. Perhaps even make it somewhat difficult to do so such as having to call Tivo and request it. This way Tivo can be certain those of us who request an ad free service would have never clicked any of these ads in the first place. (After all, if you're willing to call and request no ads the likelihood of you clicking any of the ads in the first place is slim-to-none.)

Anyhow, I respect others who disagree with me so please don't continue to belittle those of us who disagree with your POV.

Regardless of everything said above, I love my TivoHD and so far the ads haven't "crossed my line". Now if they start introducing popup ads in the middle of the screen during TV shows then I'll have to consider abandoning ship.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

destek said:


> No - I will complain. If you don't want to listen then - well, you can take the advice to ignore it. I want TIVO to change this. I refuse to be French and surrender to the absurd.


I'm trying to, but these threads keep popping up every few days, much more annoying than the ads...


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

SGR215, if everyone thought like you did, then what's the financial motivation for networks to make and broadcast tv shows?


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

> I'm trying to, but these threads keep popping up every few days, much more annoying than the ads...


Mission Accomplished. You think that is by accident? 
Get the word out.. 
Tivo is an ad box! 

Personally, I think Tivo has all of our f'kin mail addresses.. why not send out a god damn catalog of Waist-Cinchers and Bad Tv show ads or spam the fk out of my e-mail address. PLEASE! But stay the f'k off my menus where you don't belong.

TV's came out with commercial sound filters.. because cable companies were blasting the sound during commercials and pissing off customers. Why? Monopoly. But Tivo is no monopoly.. We may not get filters, popup blockers, or any other ad defense measure. BUT we will get better products.. Moxi, AMD, Sony, et all.. the end is nigh for Tivo and I'm coming. U know they smell blood in the water.

Oh.. and those who do not know.. Windows 7 has HD TV capabilities.. checkout AMD Fusion Media explorer and think HD. That OCT release is looking like a good time to jump ship.
________________________________________________________________
Buy my Book, How TIVO killed is customer base, on sale now on crapbooks.com


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Bored now.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

SGR215 said:


> For some reason there's a Tivo fan club that likes to immediately put down anyone who says anything negative about Tivo; even if it ultimately might make Tivo better off in the long run by listening to these ever-growing complaints.
> 
> Tivo is great and I'm a huge fan but it doesn't make me any less of a fan to point out when Tivo makes what I feel to be mistakes. Obviously, you're entitled to disagree with me but these childish insults only further prove my point. I pay my Tivo bill just like anyone else. These ads, in my opinion of course, cheapen Tivo's image.
> 
> ...


Thanks SGR215 -
I'd like to comment on some of your statements. Yes, there is a Tivo fan club. I would think it's to be expected at a "Tivo Community" website. Being such a site, I feel those that come here only to complain come as antagonists and instigators. What is expected to be accomplished by coming to this forum and complaining? At the top of every page at this site is a Tivo Community logo that states "This site is not part of Tivo, Inc." So who are they complaining to that can make a difference?

I have two users in my ignore list (see my signature) that I feel fit in this category. The following is one of the user's first post at this site (posted in 3 separate forums on the same day):


> There is no way to turn off the "FOR MORE INFO CRAP" Two calls to customer service and both reps have said it is here to stay and will be coming to our series three DVRs soon! Unless enough people...


This is the other user's first post:


> Honestly, I am disappointed with Tivo.. and thanks to the ads.. 2 of my friends who I was showing my new tivo to decided NOT to get a Tivo this week, specifically cause of the ads. Way to go Tivo!...


Feels pretty antagonistic and very negative to me. I'm reminded of the scene in one of the Diehard movies where Bruce Willis wearing a sandwich board first meets Samuel L Jackson. Of course people are going to take offense. And just like the Tivo ads, I ignore them, too.

Anyway, I do have the 30 second hack enabled, and maybe that is why I don't find the ads so intrusive. If and when I do pause, most of the programming I watch do NOT include the additional 1 line of text. Some programming does. I'm with you: Tivo has not crossed a line with me. I don't watch the ads on TV; I don't click the ads on Tivo. I don't love ads. I do view them as a necessary part of any business. It is possible that Tivo may get an advertiser of a product I'm interested in, and I may view such an ad. Maybe they could partner with WD and advertise harddrive replacements?


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## SGR215 (Jan 20, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> SGR215, if everyone thought like you did, then what's the financial motivation for networks to make and broadcast tv shows?


Simple, that's not my problem and I don't care if your prehistoric business model is suffering. I know, that sounds blunt but it's the reality of the situation. Allow me to clarify.

If I were in the business of making and broadcasting TV shows then I'd have to seriously consider how to maximize revenue streams while maintaining customer satisfaction. Some ways of doing so is non-intrusive advertising or, to be more specific, placing ads that also work their way into the plots of shows but not in an intrusive manner. For example, a popular TV personality might drive a BMW M3 and on some occasions we might see him do something entertaining yet subliminally advertise the car at the same time. (I.E. Spin the wheels and do donuts while showing off the engine noise.) I don't know about you, but I love cars and this would certainly make me consider purchasing one if I were in the market for a sports car. This might not provide the same astronomic profits the executives are used to but unfortunately, times change.

Realistically though, I'm still profitable. You just have to figure out how to maximize that profit without annoying me. For example, many people used to pirate TV shows because there was no way to obtain them legally online. Now, many people purchase them on Itunes. Why? Because their business model evolved with the times and provided a reasonable price for the TV show. DRM is still of a concern however, and unless this changes their profit margins will continue to suffer. Luckily they are beginning to realize this.

Broadcasters *must* become creative with advertising and evolve with the times. In your face "WATCH THIS AD NOW OR YOU'LL BE SORRY!" advertising simply isn't working anymore. Telling me that if I don't watch your ads the end of TV is near won't work either. From a consumer standpoint, and again playing devils advocate, I don't care if they evolve or not. If they annoy me too much, treat me like I'm a thief, etc I'll go elsewhere until they learn their lesson. If they don't then I'll deal with it when that time comes.

Perhaps what broadcasters really need to do is quit whining and actually develop innovating new ideas to profit off their consumers rather than just annoying in-your-face ads? (I.E. Pause menu ads) I know that I've developed several websites with this type of philosophy and while I'm not driving a Ferrari I do make a decent side income from it. Some users even give me money simply because they enjoy the site and I ask nicely. Imagine that. Anyhow, this is strictly my opinion on the situation so take it for what its worth. But contrary to popular belief, there are ways to make money from me.


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## SGR215 (Jan 20, 2004)

orangeboy,

I honestly don't see anything wrong with those posts.

As for why they must make them here? Simple, it's common knowledge Tivo frequents this board and actually makes decisions based on comments on this board. Just look at some of TivoPony's requests. As a matter of fact, the new "Tivo Search" beta includes a link to this very forum asking for suggestions/comments.


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## webin (Feb 13, 2008)

dgf123 said:


> I talked with tivo about why I was changing and was put in touch with a tivo rep who says she cares about customer feedback so all complaints should go to her Jessica --email removed.





Jessica Loebig said:


> Thank you for following up. I will provide your feedback to the appropriate teams, as it is good to hear the customer perspective.
> 
> Best,
> 
> ...





dgf123 said:


> I don't see any one else from tivo giving anyone their email and wanting to set up phone conversations to discuss problems. I have given the original poster and the others who have a problem with tivos ads a valid tivo email to voice thier concerns to.


As a side point, I read through the email correspondence you had with Tivo PR... and I don't see where Ms Loebig said "please share my email on forums so everyone can spam me." In fact, she indicates a desire to set up a feedback system for the express purpose of removing the potential mail bomb such feedback might induce.

You know her email address for the express purpose of dealing with your particular complaint. Publishing her email address on a forum and telling people to email her with their issues is out of line, and counterproductive to the goal of providing customer feedback concerning ads (as it bypasses established (and soon to be established?) feedback channels).


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## Gavroche (May 27, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> In gawd's name *WHY!!!???* Are you of the totally moronic notion it would somehow cost you less? Guess again. It probably costs you more. 'As likely as not, much, much more. Unless you never buy anything, ever, it certainly isn't going to save you anything.


I guess I must be a moron, as you say, because I have no idea what your trying to say, let alone in relation to my post.

Are you talking about some esoteric economic concept that if we paid less for our tivo subscriptions but accepted more of the current "click here" style ads that it would cost us more in the long run because like mindless sheep we'll just go out and buy whatever the ads are telling us to?

Uhmmm... er... hmmm...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> > And how do we get more competition? Increased profit motive. In other words, more people willing to pay more.
> 
> 
> OK, what does that have to do with ads? You think putting ads all over the UI is going to get *more* people to pay *more* money?


Rather, you commented on how things are the way they are because there is so little competition. I explained why there was so little competition. So basically there is this choice:

1) As things are now.

2) Pay more (generally) for DVRs; that gets more companies to compete for those dollars; that prompts each to improve their offerings, to have a better chance of getting those extra dollars people are magically willing to pay.

Customers are, generally, too cheap for their own good.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

RoyK said:


> By what measure is TiVo top dog now?


Mass-market sales.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Threads like this always amuse me, as they highlight the inherent immaturity that is the major driver of many American consumers. There seem to be two types:

First, we have the naive consumer, who engages the process, is affected by it, and conforms to what has been set forth as their role in it. These are the folks who watch commercials and buy products and services as a result. They are the engine that drives industry to serve all of us.

Second, we have the angry consumer, who rails against the process, casts it as a conspiracy against them, and blames everyone else for what they don't like about it, instead of acknowledging reality.

Stop deceiving yourself: If you think that the profitability of the products and services you consume is not your concern, then you're allowing yourself to be that second type of immature consumer.

Stop your childish whining: You can come back and whine *after* there are *other *companies doing what you would have TiVo do, and making *loads of profit *off of following your advice. Until then, learn to accept the world as it is. You can work to make it better by *rewarding* (read: paying a premium -- extra money -- for the products and services of) companies that do what you like. Complaining about companies not offering to you what no other companies offer to you is ridiculous -- literally worthy of ridicule.


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

I haven't confirmed this, but does the "more about" and/or ads in this space which I have yet to see, work if you use dial up instead of broadband?

This may not be an option for those of us that use broadband features like Netflix or download movies, but the ones that don't this may be an easy way to do away with this annoyance.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

SGR215 said:


> If I were in the business of making and broadcasting TV shows then I'd have to seriously consider how to maximize revenue streams while maintaining customer satisfaction. Some ways of doing so is non-intrusive advertising or, to be more specific, placing ads that also work their way into the plots of shows but not in an intrusive manner.


so you would rather more product placement in the shows you are actually watching versus in menus you can actually ignore. Also you believe that somehow advertisers will magically get suitably subtle.

You know what shows do product placements well now - reality shows like American Idol or The Apprentice. How a serious drama like Law & Order or Lost or Fringe could do well with product placement without turning TV into a true wasteland is a little beyond me.

so when they find the polar bear on lost the Polar bear is drinking a Coke?. Perhaps Volkswagen paid good money to show off the beatup VW microbus on Lost.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> What does all that have in common? What pays the bills? *ADVERTISING, ADVERTISING, and more ADVERTISING!*
> 
> They say a fish rots from the head down, so we shouldn't be surprised that this is the direction that TiVo is taking.


Absolutely. But you have it exactly backwards. TiVo went and got people experienced in advertising because that is what TiVo wants and has wanted from day one.

TiVo has always "promised" us more ads - all of its early company publicity stressed that was a major goal of TiVo.

That's what they need to do to survive. Selling machines and software is not going to be enough; TiVo has amply demonstrated that in the past 10 years. They would need another $5 a month from each of us for each sub we have (even lifetime) if they want to make an average profit.

If it wasn't for the potential of ads, TiVo wouldn't exist today in its current form. The main reason investors have stuck with TiVo, and companies like Comcast, Cox, and DirecTV have partnered with TiVo, is that there's a potential pot of gold in the targeted ads that TiVo will allow. It's that investment money that has paid for everything new out of TiVo since the S2.

Consumers have always valued ad skipping as a major feature, but TiVo has never advertised it as a feature, or even suggested we should buy a TiVo because we could skip ads. Until the recent HD boxes, the outside of the box didn't even offer a mechanism for skipping ads! (They prominently mentioned Rewind, Pause, and Slo-mo; they didn't even list FF, much less 30-second skip). There is no betrayal here; TiVo never promised us no ads.

We've escaped ads so far just because TiVo has failed at becoming large enough to offer an advertising market, IMO. Now with large deployment by Comcast, etc, (caused by acceptance by them and the networks that things have to change), TiVo is trying out its ad delivery mechanisms.

I don't like the ads, but nobody has come up with a better mechanism for TiVo to make a profit.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

webin said:


> As a side point, I read through the email correspondence you had with Tivo PR... and I don't see where Ms Loebig said "please share my email on forums so everyone can spam me." In fact, she indicates a desire to set up a feedback system for the express purpose of removing the potential mail bomb such feedback might induce.
> 
> You know her email address for the express purpose of dealing with your particular complaint. Publishing her email address on a forum and telling people to email her with their issues is out of line, and counterproductive to the goal of providing customer feedback concerning ads (as it bypasses established (and soon to be established?) feedback channels).


You might not have all the information! tivo is very concerned with tivos customers feelings! And concerns!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bschuler2007 said:


> ...
> 
> Ads will sink Tivo.. mark my words.


people have been saying that since 2001 at least....


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> Trolls have been saying that since 2001 at least....


FYP


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

bicker said:


> Threads like this always amuse me, as they highlight the inherent immaturity that is the major driver of many American consumers. There seem to be two types:
> 
> First, we have the naive consumer, who engages the process, is affected by it, and conforms to what has been set forth as their role in it. These are the folks who watch commercials and buy products and services as a result. They are the engine that drives industry to serve all of us.
> 
> Second, we have the angry consumer, who rails against the process, casts it as a conspiracy against them, and blames everyone else for what they don't like about it, instead of acknowledging reality.


There is a third type of consumer that follows your advise below



> You can work to make it better by *rewarding* (read: paying a premium -- extra money -- for the products and services of) companies that do what you like.


This is a consumer who pays for HBO, Showtime and PPV. Consumer who will buy Moxi or will switch to satellite to avoid TiVo ads. Consumer who will buy less junk, but will pay his credit card in full each month. Consumer who knows what he wants and gets irritated by commercials and reality shows designed for the lowest common denominator.
Unfortunately, this consumer is in minority. Most people still believe that Wall Street can subsidise company like TiVo forever so they can keep losing other people money under presumption that one day they will make their shareholders rich.
I do not believe that TiVo is or will be making any substantial money by selling ads, but I do believe in voting with a pocket book. If you don't like extra ads, then switch. If you can not afford to switch or are too cheap, then enjoy the extra ads - you have no choice. If ads don't bother you, then you are consumer of the first type and you get what was intended for you - be happy.
Just don't tell me that I have some kind of duty to watch commercials for the common good of the broadcast industry. If technology allows me to skip them, I will. If free broadcast disappears, I'll pay for the quality programming (whatever it takes to produce something that I would like to watch).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so you would rather more product placement in the shows you are actually watching versus in menus you can actually ignore.


Well, in this context, that's not really the dichotomy. Rather, the dichotomy is between the ads in the menus, and yet-even-crappier customer service from TiVo, or perhaps TiVo taking Motorola's perspective and ceasing to service the mass-market any longer, providing their current subscribers gracious direction to new TiVo-powered devices available exclusively _through their service providers_.



ZeoTiVo said:


> Also you believe that somehow advertisers will magically get suitably subtle.


Good point. The other dichotomy, here, is between more invasive advertising within and around programs, and a _declining _array of choices and _declining _quality of the choices available.

In both cases, there is a third option, wherein consumers, as a whole, actually motivate suppliers to charge them more in return for less advertising invasiveness. Consumers have shown no honest inclinations towards that alternative.

There is no free lunch. If you want to change things, make the country less capitalist/more socialist. However, don't expect me to support you in that venture.



ZeoTiVo said:


> You know what shows do product placements well now - reality shows like American Idol or The Apprentice. How a serious drama like Law & Order or Lost or Fringe could do well with product placement without turning TV into a true wasteland is a little beyond me.


Well, the product placement of automobiles is not that difficult. If crybabies wouldn't whine so incessantly about it, I could see Chuck's Buy More being bought out by Best Buy (but they'd have to do away with the unprofessional, in-store antics), and Sarah's yogurt shop bought out perhaps by some national chain in that sector.



ZeoTiVo said:


> so when they find the polar bear on lost the Polar bear is drinking a Coke?


Lost would be really difficult.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dgf123 said:


> You might not have all the information! tivo is very concerned with tivos customers feelings! And concerns!


people have been saying that since 2001 at least....


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

samo said:


> There is a third type of consumer that follows your advise below


Yes, but so few, at this point, that they don't even register.



samo said:


> This is a consumer who pays for HBO, Showtime and PPV.


Don't forget buying BDs. And none of that has advertising. Folks who really don't like advertising surely can avail themselves of all those opportunities. And recognize that there are so few people like them that that is why there aren't even more opportunities.



samo said:


> Consumer who will buy Moxi or will switch to satellite to avoid TiVo ads.


No they won't. 

In reality, neither statement is true, but by statement is *more *true than yours. 

Folks just need to look at the market. Most mass-market consumers are cheap.



samo said:


> Unfortunately, this consumer is in minority. Most people still believe that Wall Street can subsidise company like TiVo forever so they can keep losing other people money under presumption that one day they will make their shareholders rich.


That is indeed the misconception that too many people are under. :up:



samo said:


> I do not believe that TiVo is or will be making any substantial money by selling ads, but I do believe in voting with a pocket book. If you don't like extra ads, then switch.


Absolutely.



samo said:


> Just don't tell me that I have some kind of duty to watch commercials for the common good of the broadcast industry.


Yes, of course, as long as you acknowledge your lack of relevance (and therefore power), as a result of being reflective of the group of viewers who avoid commercials, and as long as you recognize that as a result the mass-market suppliers have no real incentive to provide you what you would rather have instead of what they're providing.

I fit very firmly into that group. And yes, I recognize my lack of relevance and power.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dgf123 said:


> ...That is the reason most people went with tivo in the first place to avoid those annoying ads. ...
> [/email].


I am not sure at all that the above statement is correct.

My humble opinion would be the majority of people bought DVR's to timeshift. Dumping ads is just a bonus to them. Getting the extra content delivery like netflix and all is another bonus. But most people bought the boxes I would think so they could watch what they want WHEN they want it. And then HOW they want it (sans commericals) would follow that.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> If TiVo Search is any indication of what an updated UI is going to look like then I think there are going to be ads in that top bar where they currently put pictures of related programs.
> 
> Dan


actually I beleive I've seen ads up in that top bar already. Might have just been a dream though, but i'm pretty sure.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Videodrome said:


> Right and there will be more added soon. Samsung is do out soon, and Sony usually follows samsung , so Tivo better get there house in order.


em- sony already tried to make a cablecard dvr and bailed as it wasn't profitable. If I recall they were the FIRST to make one actually. Even before tivo was in the market segment


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dgf123 said:


> I had a replay tv when it first came out and replay tv and tivos first ads were focused on skipping adds!


and didn't reply experiment with big fat Coca Cola ads during pause?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

spocko said:


> I don't get that. You admit that "more about" is not intuitively placed, but you say that it's justified by giving greater exposure to Tivo Search. How does usage of Tivo Search directly benefit Tivo?
> ....


selling amazon, netflix, jamon, and other addtional content.

also as above, i'm pretty sure i've seen ads for the showcase partners up top in the top bar.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dgf123 said:


> Why should we give you a break? And why should we give tivo a break? Why should there be an alternative? Find out who your customers are and what your customers want and give that to them for a mutually agreed upon price. As costs go up you may need to raise your prices but you should never change the product you sold in the first place with out renegotiating the price.


it's pretty clear that what the average consumer is willing to pay will not make tivo a profit and that is the problem.

they can stop all development to cut costs, raise the prices to actually cover their costs, loose a good portion of their subs and scare off most potential new subs and make a few cents a box on the deployed boxes they have and slowly watch the company die. OR they can try to find additional sources of revenue.

People complain about every additional attempt at new revenue they try.

they raise monthly prices- people complain
they get rid of lifetime - people complain
they add amazon purchasing - people complain
they add more ads- people complain
they ad a lifetime transfer fee- people complain
they try to sell viewing data- people complain.
they outsource customer service to save money- people complain
they cut back headcount to save money (resulting in less new features, slower response times to calls and emails, etc)- people complain
...

get the picture?

they have to find the business model that makes them significantly more money without pissing off too many customers. So far they haven't found that.

personally I'd vote for any of the other things they have tried before ads. But still there's threads here complaining about each and every one of the other attempts.

If this is the straw that breaks the camel's back then by all means people should let tivo know and go by a moxi. To me it's not that point - YET.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

Langree said:


> Actually, (ReplayTV and TiVo's first ads) were focused on skipping televised comercials. TiVo does not force you to click on any of the ad banners.


Exactly! And that's the essential difference between TiVo's ads and TV commercials.

Tivo would do well to reconsider some of its static ad displays but TiVo is still unsurpassed at allowing users to skip or minimize exposure to TV commercials. ReplayTV's _Commercial Advance_, controversial as it was, was never close to being foolproof and often screwed up, sometimes by automatically deleting part of an ongoing program but more often by displaying a sequence of commercials.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

MichaelK said:


> em- sony already tried to make a cablecard dvr and bailed as it wasn't profitable. If I recall they were the FIRST to make one actually. Even before tivo was in the market segment


It wasnt profitable because it was a windows media center, its just cost to much. But if samsung does it, sony always follows. A media center pc is much different then a DVR.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

SGR215 said:


> For some reason there's a Tivo fan club that likes to immediately put down anyone who says anything negative about Tivo; even if it ultimately might make Tivo better off in the long run by listening to these ever-growing complaints.
> 
> Tivo is great and I'm a huge fan but it doesn't make me any less of a fan to point out when Tivo makes what I feel to be mistakes. Obviously, you're entitled to disagree with me but these childish insults only further prove my point. I pay my Tivo bill just like anyone else. These ads, in my opinion of course, cheapen Tivo's image.
> 
> ...


You just posted in a grownup and eloquent manner and so people will respect your opinions. And they will think about what you had to say. Thank you.

When others post in a hysterical and childish manner then people tend to respect them less. And things go down hill from there.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so you would rather more product placement in the shows you are actually watching versus in menus you can actually ignore. Also you believe that somehow advertisers will magically get suitably subtle.
> 
> You know what shows do product placements well now - reality shows like American Idol or The Apprentice. How a serious drama like Law & Order or Lost or Fringe could do well with product placement without turning TV into a true wasteland is a little beyond me.
> 
> so when they find the polar bear on lost the Polar bear is drinking a Coke?. Perhaps Volkswagen paid good money to show off the beatup VW microbus on Lost.


actually they do it in all types of shows.

I remember the stir that got caused in lost when they first showed desmonds station and he had that fancy expensive pretty colored front loading washer and drier set. You dont think that was product placement? they couldn't find another way to let us know that there were modern ammenties availible? Maybe a cd player along side the record player? A dvd player alongside the training movies?

there's coke cans and whatnot all over the place in lots of shows.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Videodrome said:


> It wasnt profitable because it was a windows media center, its just cost to much. But if samsung does it, sony always follows. A media center pc is much different then a DVR.


wrong

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-video-recorders-dvrs/sony-dhg-hdd250/4505-6474_7-31155637.html

also for I belive LG tried too and also bailed.

and lets not forget that replay tv also tried and failed.

and moxi has been the next big thing for years now and finally just came out with an actuall product (hopefully they try to make a go at it).

Mitsubishi announced one in 2004- not sure if it ever came to be.
http://www.audioholics.com/news/press-releases/mitsubishi-hd-6000-hd-pvr-dvr-announced

(also- interesting to note NONE of the others had the monthly fee to ensure some type of continued income)

so there was an option for people that just wanted to buy a box that is a dvr and never get any new features. But those didn't sell.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> Unfortunately, this consumer is in minority. Most people still believe that Wall Street can subsidise company like TiVo forever so they can keep losing other people money under presumption that one day they will make their shareholders rich.
> I do not believe that TiVo is or will be making any substantial money by selling ads,


I think they are looking at making interactive ad technology another piece of their core business of selling software - TiVo seems to see the standalone DVRs as a way to showcase what they can do with interactive ads technology versus actually being an advertising conduit. clearly TiVo has given up throwing money at expanding the subscriber base in favor of what profitability it can gain now while still being able to develop software for DVRs and interactive ads. It is an odd dichotomy that I as a happy customer of their standalones find myself in.


samo said:


> but I do believe in voting with a pocket book. If you don't like extra ads, then switch. If you can not afford to switch or are too cheap, then enjoy the extra ads - you have no choice. If ads don't bother you, then you are consumer of the first type and you get what was intended for you - be happy.


this is the point I never think is right. Why is it that I as a customer of TiVo DVRs have to be Naive to not be bothered by the ads. I know ads are a fact of life if capitalism is to be allowed to flourish, even if it becomes a hybrid socialist/capitalist system - advertising is the way to promote the sales of goods that someone produced with their own private capital. It is what keeps the consumer engine going. There are indeed ads that interest me that I want to see. Now I do not want to deal with 20 minutes of ads in an hour's time as likely all 20 minutes has no worth to me but is indeed designed solely to make my hand move over a few feet in the grocery store or Best Buy and buy the other item instead of what I got last time. From my perspective the naive are watching TV without a DVR and I thank them for sitting through the commercials. That wont continue forever however and I would rather a software company like TiVo look forward to the day advertisers no longer value 30 sec TV ads versus sitting around waiting for the backlash when that happens.



samo said:


> Just don't tell me that I have some kind of duty to watch commercials for the common good of the broadcast industry. If technology allows me to skip them, I will. If free broadcast disappears, I'll pay for the quality programming (whatever it takes to produce something that I would like to watch).


yes you do have a duty to watch along with many others.... so that I do not  and yet someone is still adding value to those commercials that I skip.



bicker said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Yes, of course, as long as you acknowledge your lack of relevance (and therefore power), as a result of being reflective of the group of viewers who avoid commercials, and as long as you recognize that as a result the mass-market suppliers have no real incentive to provide you what you would rather have instead of what they're providing.
> 
> I fit very firmly into that group. And yes, I recognize my lack of relevance and power.


and this is the bottom line of the whole discussion for me. I have no power to stop advertising, the country is not going to listen to me and lrhorer as to why a system of responsible customer research before making buying decisions that is not funded by the producers of the goods would be better overall.  Surely those loosing out to customer research would not just willingly give up without looking for some other means to persuade customers to use their product.

So ads will stay rooted in whatever medium is currently drawing the eyeballs. TiVo can ignore that and try and stay the consumer friendly DVR - but that play clearly did not work for replayTV and clearly was not dropping any new subscribers into TiVo incs. laps past the early years. Such a market runs dry as both Bicker and Samo point out. My favorite remark in these forums is the "I bought a TiVo with lifetime 6 years ago, why can't TiVo give me a new HD box for really cheap or free" while they completely ignore they have given TiVo no money at all in say 5 years.


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## jcaudle (Aug 16, 2004)

mec1991 said:


> We all have different reasons why we bought TiVo in the first place. In my case I was so PO'd at trying to watch a Clint Eastwood movie back in 2001 I turned the TV off and went out, to Best Buy IIRC, and bought one within the hour. The station ran the opening credits then went to a batch of commercials, ran a little of the movie then went back to more commercials at 10 after the hour, again at 20 after the hour, and again at 30 minutes after. Can't recall if it was a local Dallas station or a cable one but I had never seen anything like that beforehand.
> 
> So yes, for me, avoiding the over commercialization was the initial reason. I soon learned to love the season passes, wishlist feature, etc.
> 
> ...


You can tell the growth of ads by looking at older shows from amazon or netflix....If you look at a show from the 1980s typically its 48 minutes without commercials...today an hour show is anywhere from 42-44 minutes. So they have increased the local national ad block by over 25%.


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## jcaudle (Aug 16, 2004)

SGR215 said:


> Simple, that's not my problem and I don't care if your prehistoric business model is suffering. I know, that sounds blunt but it's the reality of the situation. Allow me to clarify.
> 
> If I were in the business of making and broadcasting TV shows then I'd have to seriously consider how to maximize revenue streams while maintaining customer satisfaction. Some ways of doing so is non-intrusive advertising or, to be more specific, placing ads that also work their way into the plots of shows but not in an intrusive manner. For example, a popular TV personality might drive a BMW M3 and on some occasions we might see him do something entertaining yet subliminally advertise the car at the same time. (I.E. Spin the wheels and do donuts while showing off the engine noise.) I don't know about you, but I love cars and this would certainly make me consider purchasing one if I were in the market for a sports car. This might not provide the same astronomic profits the executives are used to but unfortunately, times change.
> 
> ...


Tivo isn't perfect. The system 3 Tivo Hd platforms and software are getting elderly. The menus haven't changed much in the last 10 years. But before you gripe too much about Tivo and its ads consider the alterenatives.

Moxi: I don't know a lot about it, but its expensive and not many in service. How long they will be around is uncertain. Cost 800 bucks.

Cable Dvrs: No ads....but lousy search capabilities. small storage capacity, no multiroom viewing. Fees for the cox DVR are over $20 per month. And its the Cisco/Scientific Atlanta POS. So f

Satellite: Packages aren't bad, but can't bundle rates with internet/phone. Tivo isn't yet available in a new HD unit. You have to pay for a box that you lease. If its leased why do you have to pay upfront?

So for now its Tivo. The market may bring new choices but I have invested in equipment and a lifetime and nothing intrigues me enough to spend $800 for a moxi or monthy rental for a crappy cable dvr.


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## destek (Jan 15, 2001)

jcaudle said:


> You can tell the growth of ads by looking at older shows from amazon or netflix....If you look at a show from the 1980s typically its 48 minutes without commercials...today an hour show is anywhere from 42-44 minutes. So they have increased the local national ad block by over 25%.


Some years back the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) threw up their hands and dropped their "guidelines" for commercial limitations in a 30 minute time-block. This essentially gave broadcasters permission to hurl as many commercials as they could before viewers would show up on their doorstep with torches and pitchforks.
Well - instead of torches and pitchforks they showed up with TIVO! Broadcasters are crying foul - but appear pretty helpless to stop the tide. TIVO has always tried to play nice (unlike replay which put in the 30 second skip which drew the ire of the networks and movie studios who threatened to take 'em down). For the most part now the networks and studios are powerless to stop the trend and TIVO seems justified to make moves that would likely have encouraged litigation just a few years back. Giving consumers a way to negate the content providers revenue stream and insert their own would most certainly have brought down a battery of lawyers on TIVO - but now it is being justified by a complacent proletariat and a flailing 
corporation wanting to appear as though they are moving toward solvency. Ads on TIVO will not bring TIVO out of the red - the perception that ads will drive significant revenue however, will generate new investment and funding sources.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

destek said:


> Ads on TIVO will not bring TIVO out of the red - the perception that ads will drive significant revenue however, will generate new investment and funding sources.


I will say again that it is selling the safiware behind the interactive ad technology that is the long term profit seen by TiVo inc. It is not the ad views on a couple million boxes.


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## esb1981 (Dec 2, 2007)

Just to add my $.02 to this discussion...

Tivo needs to find ways to be profitable, otherwise the company will go out of business. When was the last time they actually had a quarter in the Black instead of the Red? While the ads are a mild nuisance, I would prefer to see Tivo do what they need to do to stay in business as a company, and that means finding more ways to be profitable - so I am willing to let this slide. How would we all feel if they went out of business and we were stuck with the crappy cable company DVR's?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

esb1981 said:


> Tivo needs to find ways to be profitable, otherwise the company will go out of business.


Well, those aren't the only two choices. The third choice is that they'll just sell their software for use on service provider-provided DVRs.


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## SGR215 (Jan 20, 2004)

Product placement is actually fairly easy and Lost is no exception; it just takes work. Like others have stated it has been done and could easily continue. For example, that generic chocolate bar could easily have been a snickers bar. Those graham crackers could have easily been Teddy Grahams. The list goes on. Product placement involves creativity. Creativity involves actual work rather then just cutting to a commercial that yells "I'M A CELEBRITY AND REALLY COOL. I DRINK COKE!"

Jcaudle, I definitely agree. Tivo is by far the best DVR on the market right now even despite the fact it does have it's negatives. (They are small negatives too) You couldn't pay me enough to switch to an alternative right now. I don't see the Tivo DVR's becoming obsolete anytime soon and I'm already eagerly awaiting info on the series 4. 



MichaelK said:


> When others post in a hysterical and childish manner then people tend to respect them less. And things go down hill from there.


I definitely agree there. I've seen some posts that actually provide very little useful input and usually resort in threatening a class action lawsuit, cursing, or some other overly dramatic post.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

esb1981 said:


> When was the last time they actually had a quarter in the Black instead of the Red?


http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-newsArticle&id=1261660


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

SGR215 said:


> Product placement is actually fairly easy and Lost is no exception; it just takes work.


I don't mind when American Idol has an AT&T store in every hometown coming cameo or that the Idols do a ford commercial that is actually part of the show, cause it is a singing show - it does not change the real content of the show much.

Now when the store on Reaper becomes a Best Buy and they start to dictate acceptable on screen behavior for in store shots - then it no longer is a show but a best buy ad. Product placement will always be around (mfg. logo on back of PC screens - certain cars used - certain phones used - but for most of them then the camera work has to be such that a good shot of the product is included - not that a good shot the director wanted is exclusive of that but you can bet that creative compromise will be part of majority of product placement.

Subtle is what ads are not and product placement that is subtle is just not what an advertiser is looking for for the main message. *Ads are not going away*.


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## destek (Jan 15, 2001)

esb1981 said:


> Just to add my $.02 to this discussion...
> 
> Tivo needs to find ways to be profitable, otherwise the company will go out of business. When was the last time they actually had a quarter in the Black instead of the Red? While the ads are a mild nuisance, I would prefer to see Tivo do what they need to do to stay in business as a company, and that means finding more ways to be profitable - so I am willing to let this slide. How would we all feel if they went out of business and we were stuck with the crappy cable company DVR's?


Not sure how "locked" the box is - but if TIVO folds it will take little time for a company to offer a service compatible with TIVO. 
Look - all I'm saying is that TIVO needs to back off on the ads some. Less in-your-face. The pause ads crossed the line for me - perhaps not for others. That line is probably fairly thick and I just want TIVO to know where I stand: Ads on the pause point were it. It seems there are others who feel the same way I do, others still who still have some tolerance in their heart. Thee are even some for whom TIVO had already crossed the line. As TIVO moves the bar we need to provide them feedback.
I am not selling my TIVO - but at this point, when it comes time to renew I will be looking at other offerings whereas before I would not have. Plain and simple - they've opened the door to competitors for me - and if that doesn't concern them then I am apparently not part of their target demographic.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

destek said:


> Not sure how "locked" the box is - but if TIVO folds it will take little time for a company to offer a service compatible with TIVO.
> Look - all I'm saying is that TIVO needs to back off on the ads some. Less in-your-face....


I think what you meant to say is "you want Tivo to back off on the ads some". Many people thinks Tivo needs to do many different things, but Tivo the company only needs to do the things that it thinks it needs to survive. The fact that they are still around even with the competition of cable and sat DVR's, and deathwatchers hovering over their head for several years now, and staying close to profitability, I would think they know what they are doing pretty well. What other company do you see that can offer a service compatible with Tivo in little time? Comcast? Dish? DirecTV? They've all spent years trying to copy Tivo, and some of them still are failing miserably. A small and innovative company, maybe Moxi? How do you see them succeed and survive against the cable and sat giants, if Tivo couldn't? If it's so easy for someone new to come on the scene and do better, why hasn't that someone done it already?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

destek said:


> Not sure how "locked" the box is - but if TIVO folds it will take little time for a company to offer a service compatible with TIVO.
> Look - all I'm saying is that TIVO needs to back off on the ads some. Less in-your-face. The pause ads crossed the line for me - perhaps not for others. That line is probably fairly thick and I just want TIVO to know where I stand: Ads on the pause point were it. It seems there are others who feel the same way I do, others still who still have some tolerance in their heart. Thee are even some for whom TIVO had already crossed the line. As TIVO moves the bar we need to provide them feedback.
> I am not selling my TIVO - but at this point, when it comes time to renew I will be looking at other offerings whereas before I would not have. Plain and simple - they've opened the door to competitors for me - and if that doesn't concern them then I am apparently not part of their target demographic.


Thats a very well put post. 
But I think you are part of their demographic, just as most everyone here is, and even the people that the line was already crossed and they left.

Basically they need to walk a tight rope. Trying to figure out what new attempt might make them a pile of money without chasing away more revenue from subs.

Its not like they sit in a conference room and say hey I know this new ad delivery method is going to make destek leave- but screw him hes not our target demo. I think they probably sit in a conference room with multiple options and they debate them and try to decide which ones piss people off the most. And also which ones might get advertisers to spend the most. Then they pick which one that will get the most ad dollars relative to the number of subs that they believe will leave over it. Seems over time they have moved incrementally towards things that anyone could tell are going to piss more and more people off. But they probably keep hoping that this one is the one that the advertisers really buy into- so hopefully the people we lose over this increment will be worth it. If all they cared about was making the most money on ads then years ago (these kinds of threads are at least as old as 2001)- then they would just be putting commercials up that run before playback that you cant skip like hulu does. That would make them the most money from ads as they are are sure to be noticed- but clearly Tivo realizes that they want to piss off the least amount of subs possible. And thats why we have this drip by drip, drop by drop, torture of the next more invasive ad every 6 months or whatever. Hopefully one of them sticks with the ad buyers and this stops before we get to hulu type ads and everyone leaves.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

Honestly, I think Tivo is just trying to rape the customers quick before they all defect to Windows 7 HTPC's without ads. They see the writing on the wall.
I guess I would do the same if I owned Tivo... so I am calming down and just jumping ship... Tivo never meant much to me, infact, they usually screwed up what I liked about Tivo.. For it was Pytivo, etc. that I loved. And I can get that stuff easily from Windows 7 and a HDMI connection without the constant barage of issues and ads that come with Tivo. Just counting the days at this point. Pytivo, you will be missed.


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## mamosley (Apr 9, 2003)

destek said:


> Ok - I was midly annoyed with the new "see more about <this show>" when paused - but there are now ADS in that space as well.
> I have been very happy with TIVO - ecstatic actually - but this has just gone too far for me now. I was willing to put up with it, even though I pay for the service, but this has crossed my line. It feels like TIVO feels empowered to put ads whereever, whenever they like on my box because I buy their service.
> OK - so they still aren't making money. Do they think that by abandoning thier once-elegant user interface they will turn a profit? Perhaps they need to do some GM-style downsizing and pursue a business model for a company that isn't the size of southern Europe. Believe me, someone could figure out how to run that company on about 500 employees out of an office suite in Dayton, Ohio. Tivo is going to become known as an ad-box and that officially makes me a former-fan.
> Sorry Tivo, you had me there for a long time - but you've blown it. You don't improve your business by annoying your customers!
> ...


Right there with ya. That's why I havent renewed my subscription to xbox live and traded in my xbox 360 and got a ps3. That is also why I now have a moxi box in my living room and when I get one for the bedroom my last tivo will be gone.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

destek said:


> Not sure how "locked" the box is - but if TIVO folds it will take little time for a company to offer a service compatible with TIVO.


If that *were *true, other companies would be offering "service comparable" with TiVo now.



destek said:


> Look - all I'm saying is that TIVO needs to back off on the ads some.


The reality, though, is that you *want* them to back off on the ads some. There is a big difference. I'm not sure if you're doing it deliberately, or just carelessly, but presenting your personal preference as an imperative isn't appropriate.

People always complain online. And their complaints often prompt others to add to the spiraling circle of an online *****-fest. Keep in mind that it doesn't mean much. Reality trumps *****-fest. What is important is that readers do not get the impression that what the *****-ers are *****ing about is actually something that they themselves should come to expect. We should be very clear about what is actually promised, and therefore people should expect, and what people personally want to see.



destek said:


> As TIVO moves the bar we need to provide them feedback.


Here you go:

http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/2web519.htm



destek said:


> I am not selling my TIVO - but at this point, when it comes time to renew I will be looking at other offerings whereas before I would not have.


Good luck with that. Again, sticking with the reality, the other options are either a lot more expensive, or a lot more complicated, or a lot less feature-packed. But again, good luck with that.



destek said:


> Plain and simple - they've opened the door to competitors for me - and if that doesn't concern them then I am apparently not part of their target demographic.


Until you actually choose a competitor, this statement of yours is utterly ridiculous. The reality is that TiVo knows that their competition is either (as above) too expensive, too complicated, or a lot less feature-packed.

Everyone was stringing their hopes on a $250 Moxi HD with no subscription... remember that patter online, before the Moxi came out? Hahaha... gosh were those people wrong! And their expectations in that regard stemmed from, again, mistaking their personal desire with reality. No, the Moxi HD is more expensive than the TiVo. Do you want to know the price of doing away with those ads at this time? It is at least $100, but even that's conservative, because the Moxi is new, and as far as we know, they're losing money worse than TiVo right now.

To be honest, the only close competitor there is to TiVo right now is the cable company provided DVRs. They had the advantage of no up-front fees, no hidden fees (i.e., for CableCARD), a replacement plan in case of failure, etc. And for the first two or three years, they're actually less expensive. However, I would not be surprised to see ads invade that space soon, as well. But switch back to the cable company DVR if you're so inclined. As likely as not, one day, it'll be running TiVo software, so TiVo would be getting its money anyway, and for the part of their company that is probably best able to be profitable (IMHO).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> Honestly, I think Tivo is just trying to rape the customers quick before they all defect to Windows 7 HTPC's without ads. They see the writing on the wall.


you have gone way past meaningless with such nonsense - welcome to my ignore list


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you have gone way past meaningless with such nonsense - welcome to my ignore list


The ignore list is a nice feature, huh?


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## destek (Jan 15, 2001)

bicker said:


> Until you actually choose a competitor, this statement of yours is utterly ridiculous.


You made some good points and I can take a spanking when deserved  - but that one statement quoted above is silly. If I, as a consumer, announce to the world that I am willing to now look at competing products, whereas before I was not, that is a valid and worrisome  statement. It tells competitors  there's an opportunity to grow their market. Investors in TIVO competitors want to hear that, investors in TIVO do not. 
Granted - any new product may not be good enough and when I look through the newly opened door I may see nothing but junk, but what if somebody does actually come up with a product I buy? Even if they lie to me and I wind up with junk (like my new cell phone that looked so cool in the store) - TIVO has still lost another sub and has certainly lost face in their community. 
But as has been correctly pointed out - it is likely face they calculated on losing as they seek their level.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

bschuler2007 said:


> And I can get that stuff easily from Windows 7.....


Bwaahahahahaaha, clearly you've never spent any real time putting up with a media center abomination. While Tivo's got their issues, the unit and it's interface have been rock-solid reliable for it's main purpose.... watching television. The various media center hacks (windows, myth, etc) are a wreck of too many features and not enough core competency. While it's true the masses will put up with whatever crap is handed to them "for free" that doesn't make the solutions worth tolerating. Fortunately Tivo delivers that.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

jcaudle said:


> Tivo isn't perfect. The system 3 Tivo Hd platforms and software are getting elderly. The menus haven't changed much in the last 10 years. But before you gripe too much about Tivo and its ads consider the alterenatives.
> 
> Moxi: I don't know a lot about it, but its expensive and not many in service. How long they will be around is uncertain. Cost 800 bucks.
> 
> ...


Excellent summary.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

destek said:


> You made some good points and I can take a spanking when deserved  - but that one statement quoted above is silly. If I, as a consumer, announce to the world that I am willing to now look at competing products, whereas before I was not, that is a valid and worrisome  statement.


No, not really, because it is not credible. In other words, there is no proof that you're being genuine. Rather, you could be saying that because you're frustrated and angry. That's actually the most likely situation, and so the safest assumption.



destek said:


> It tells competitors  there's an opportunity to grow their market.


The competitors also know that such statements are rarely if ever credible. That's why the two most well-situated companies who could be competitors actually, instead of offering a competing problem, refuse to offer the products they have to the general public in the United States. Mass-market consumers in the US cause an incredibly high amount of cost to support products and service, so much so that even as ready-competitors, they have no interest in being such. It will take a lot more than some silly chatter by the frustrated and angry consumers of the sucker -- uh -- other company that is offering products to the general public to get high quality companies to actually consider entering the market. The object isn't to attract away someone else's refuse -- uh -- problems, but rather to make money, and since TiVo isn't consistently profitable, there is no reason to think that there is money to be made serving TiVo's cheap -- uh -- spend-thrift customers.


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## manu (May 15, 2009)

If all these people are soo happy with tivos ads then why are all these happy people here arguing with those people who are angry with the ads? It does not make sense to me that people would come into this thread just to argue and antagonize the original poster, unless your just tivo fans and cant handle other peoples rights to free speech. I have watched these comments for months and it seems that any time a new post comes up from a new member about the ads then the same minority of people jump on them and try to make them go away. The fact that there are many other dvr choices out there is proof that tivo is loosing there market share so obviously not everyone is happy with tivo. So let them complain and if enough people do then tivo will here them and make a better product.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jcaudle said:


> Tivo isn't perfect. The system 3 Tivo Hd platforms and software are getting elderly. The menus haven't changed much in the last 10 years. But before you gripe too much about Tivo and its ads consider the alterenatives.
> 
> Cable Dvrs: No ads....but lousy search capabilities. small storage capacity, no multiroom viewing. Fees for the cox DVR are over $20 per month. And its the Cisco/Scientific Atlanta POS.


I have to say, I was helping my sister with her Comcast DVR, and I was floored at how pervasive the ads were. In their tiny guide, you scroll down to see more channels and as you scroll down you actually select the ad at the bottom of the screen!

For any complaints I may have had about the new pause screen ads, that single cable offense of the default action in the guide of all things, is far far worse.

Diane


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

manu said:


> If all these people are soo happy with tivos ads then why are all these happy people here arguing with those people who are angry with the ads? It does not make sense to me that people would come into this thread just to argue and antagonize the original poster, unless your just tivo fans and cant handle other peoples rights to free speech. I have watched these comments for months and it seems that any time a new post comes up from a new member about the ads then the same minority of people jump on them and try to make them go away. The fact that there are many other dvr choices out there is proof that tivo is loosing there market share so obviously not everyone is happy with tivo. So let them complain and if enough people do then tivo will here them and make a better product.


I'm glad you joined forum and finally made your first post.

Let me explain it the way I see it. It's a non isssue. So, why get so upset about it. It's horrible people want to do nothing but gripe about such a non issue. Please don't get so worked up about it. It's nothing. It isn't really bothering anyone.

It's like people that can't control their anger when driving. Just chill, and enjoy the ride.

As you said, you've been lurking for months. How about other potential people who want a good DVR who are lurking here trying to decide. They see all the folks griping about a non issue and they begin to think TiVo isn't a good choice, when it really is not only a good choice, but the best choice.

So, just chill. Enjoy your DVR. Hit the clear button after pause, or program your Harmony remote to handle it for you. It's just not a real issue.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

manu said:


> If all these people are soo happy with tivos ads then why are all these happy people here arguing with those people who are angry with the ads? It does not make sense to me that people would come into this thread just to argue and antagonize the original poster, unless your just tivo fans and cant handle other peoples rights to free speech.


That's ridiculous, mostly because your implication, itself, that people shouldn't object to the OP's message, would indicate that *you* "can't handle other people's right to free speech".  Reasonable people disagree about things: Get used to it; it is going to be a fundamental aspect of practically everything for the rest of your life.

In this context, folks objecting to the OP has several perspectives that they are sharing: Most notably is the vacuous nature of the assertions that it is reasonable to expect better. Given that no one is providing better, it is as likely as not that what we are offered is the best we can expect. That doesn't mean we cannot desire better, nor does it mean we cannot hope for better, but it does mean that it is unreasonable to expect better. Most importantly, readers should be able to appreciate the *reality*, rather than just being exposed to wishful thinking, and perhaps inadvertently being led to unreasonable expectations as a result. We're supposed to be here to help each other -- to help each other achieve the most satisfaction practicable -- we are not here to foster each others' dissatisfaction. How horrible a place this would be if the point and purpose was to make *everyone* disappointed.



manu said:


> I have watched these comments for months and it seems that any time a new post comes up from a new member about the ads then the same minority of people jump on them and try to make them go away.


Bull. People are simply not allowing indefensible assertions and pot-stirring to have an *unrebutted* soap-box. If you want an unrebutted soap-box, post to a blog or to your own Facebook page. If you post here, expect *discussion*, meaning comments both in favor of what you post and opposed to what you post -- preferably in *equal* measure, in all cases.



manu said:


> The fact that there are many other dvr choices out there


This one statement proves you have no idea what you're talking about.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

janry said:


> I'm glad you joined forum and finally made your first post.


LOL!

Yeah, just joined...


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## destek (Jan 15, 2001)

bicker said:


> No, not really, because it is not credible. In other words, there is no proof that you're being genuine. Rather, you could be saying that because you're frustrated and angry. That's actually the most likely situation, and so the safest assumption.


Bicker - now you're sounding like a TIVO shill. Your statement is assumptive as well and has no more credibility then mine. Why would I come to this forum if I were not being genuine? Since I've been a member (with mostly positive things to say about TIVO) since 2001 it's highly unlikely I have any desire to hurt TIVO. Since when is frustration and anger at how a company uses its customers not credible? Frankly it's more likely you have as much of an agenda here as I - but I'm being clear while yours is clearly obtuse.

I'm fine with discussion - but to assert that I am not genuine, or that frustration is not a valid consideration with a product is inane.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

destek said:


> Bicker - now you're sounding like a TIVO shill. Your statement is assumptive as well and has no more credibility then mine. Why would I come to this forum if I were not being genuine? Since I've been a member (with mostly positive things to say about TIVO) since 2001 it's highly unlikely I have any desire to hurt TIVO. Since when is frustration and anger at how a company uses its customers not credible? Frankly it's more likely you have as much of an agenda here as I - but I'm being clear while yours is clearly obtuse.
> 
> I'm fine with discussion - but to assert that I am not genuine, or that frustration is not a valid consideration with a product is inane.


I think bicker means that you're not really willing to put your money where your mouth is - that is, you're note being truthful when you say you're willing to drop TiVo over these ads.

I don't know if that's true, but like I said in another post on this topic, it's what you have to do if you really want to make a difference. Money talks.


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## kika2000 (Apr 20, 2009)

janry said:


> As you said, you've been lurking for months. How about other potential people who want a good DVR who are lurking here trying to decide. They see all the folks griping about a non issue and they begin to think TiVo isn't a good choice, when it really is not only a good choice, but the best choice.


I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but as someone who has been lurking around these forums for a while trying to decide whether to purchase a Tivo, I've found the information about ads (if not the argument) very enlightening.

After much thought, I just had my new Tivo HD hooked up and so far, I'm extremely happy.
But...
Had I not been forewarned about the ads in the Tivo interface, I would have been extremely shocked and probably very disappointed with my purchase.

Many of you have a long history with Tivo and have seen changes that newbies like me have no concept of, but you've also been looking at the Tivo interface every day for a long time. For a user like me, coming from an ad-free cable company DVR, even that ad at the bottom of Tivo Central is surprising.

I'm not a fan of arguing for argument's sake, but there is something to be said for having reasonably lowered expectations.

This forum, and even this topic has been instrumental in my decision-making process - and I decided to go with a Tivo.


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

Welcome to TiVo Kika. Did it help you to have umpteen threads on the same subject with people making meaningly threats to dump their TiVos in the dumpster?

The discussion is one thing. To come in here and make no meaningful posts, just empty threats is hardly enlightening, IMHO. YMMV.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

The problem is how tivo does the ads. not the ads itself. The pause ads, including the time progress bar are very annoying, and people like bicker , don't understand the straw principle eventually you are going to break the customer.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

destek said:


> Bicker - now you're sounding like a TIVO shill. Your statement is assumptive as well and has no more credibility then mine. Why would I come to this forum if I were not being genuine? Since I've been a member (with mostly positive things to say about TIVO) since 2001 it's highly unlikely I have any desire to hurt TIVO. Since when is frustration and anger at how a company uses its customers not credible? Frankly it's more likely you have as much of an agenda here as I - but I'm being clear while yours is clearly obtuse.
> 
> I'm fine with discussion - but to assert that I am not genuine, or that frustration is not a valid consideration with a product is inane.


Most of his postings are inane. As is, certainly, the assertion that those of us who object to ads on our boxes are not being genuine.

I can accept that some users have no problem with them. Heck, some users would have no problem with the ads if they contained audio shouted by Billy Mays at 125 dB. (Zeo would no doubt just say that it has always been his habit to hit the mute button before he hits the pause button followed by the FF button.)

I understand (but do not accept) the assertion of some users that ads keep the subscription rate "low".

But many of us do honestly despise them and we will continue to express our disgust with TiVo concerning them in any forum available to us -- including this one.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> The problem is how tivo does the ads. not the ads itself. The pause ads, including the time progress is very annoying, and people like bicker , don't understand the straw principle eventually you are going to break the customer.


The time progress has been part of the pause screen forever.


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## manu (May 15, 2009)

bicker said:


> That's ridiculous, mostly because your implication, itself, that people shouldn't object to the OP's message, would indicate that *you* "can't handle other people's right to free speech".  Reasonable people disagree about things: Get used to it; it is going to be a fundamental aspect of practically everything for the rest of your life . But why go out of your way to argue with the op?????
> 
> In this context, folks objecting to the OP has several perspectives that they are sharing: Most notably is the vacuous nature of the assertions that it is reasonable to expect better. Given that no one is providing better,
> 
> ...


 This proves you dont have a clue and that you dont realize people can get a verizon fios dvr, or a cox cable dvr, or a direct tv dvr, or a moxi hd dvr, or a comcast cable dvr and others and that tivo is the minority now. And this is exactly what I posted in that any time some one coments in an un approved manner the tivo bullies jump on them! I did not say weather I disliked the ads or not I just said the original poster was ganged up on for haveing a negative comment about tivo and look what you do to me!


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

manu said:


> This proves you dont have a clue and that you dont realize people can get a verizon fios dvr, or a cox cable dvr, or a direct tv dvr, or a moxi hd dvr, or a comcast cable dvr and others and that tivo is the minority now. And this is exactly what I posted in that any time some one coments in an un approved manner the tivo bullies jump on them! I did not say weather I disliked the ads or not I just said the original poster was ganged up on for haveing a negative comment about tivo and look what you do to me!


There's no "unapproved" aspect here, nor is anyone bullying. So just drop that whole stupid victimization tactic. This is a tivo-centric forum, presumably one geared toward the more positive aspects of it. That negative commentary isn't met with open arms, gee what a surprise... not. But, please, spare us the further political correct labeling attempts, that's just a pathetic way to try to bolster a losing argument. Tough up, or hit the road.

Likewise, there are plenty of "alternatives" to many products. Those owning a given brand, perhaps one that's more expensive, are often quite willing to accept the price premium that comes with it. Having used the directv and verizon units, along with MCE and Myth, I can tell you they're nowhere near as convenient as the Tivo for the primary purpose of being a brand-dead simple, always dependable and ready-to-use product for time-shifting TV programming. That and the unacceptably low 'spousal-acceptance-factor' of the others is a the primary driver for us keeping the Tivo.

The ad things are annoying but they're basically easy to ignore... at this point. Meanwhile the Tivo continues to do a superior job at being a DVR and worth the price we pay for the service.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

Videodrome said:


> The problem is how tivo does the ads. not the ads itself. The pause ads, including the time progress bar are very annoying, and people like bicker , don't understand the straw principle eventually you are going to break the customer.


Which assumes you're in possession of some deeper understanding about customer behavior. Your proof of this is, what? I mean, besides just being a crank?


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## wedenton (Jun 13, 2002)

donnoh said:


> I haven't confirmed this, but does the "more about" and/or ads in this space which I have yet to see, work if you use dial up instead of broadband?
> 
> This may not be an option for those of us that use broadband features like Netflix or download movies, but the ones that don't this may be an easy way to do away with this annoyance.


Unfortunately, dial up does not eliminate these ads. You don't get the "More about...." option but the damned ad still pops up in your face and stays there until you dismiss it.

I'm still wondering if this ad is producing more income for TiVo than its costing them.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

destek said:


> Bicker - now you're sounding like a TIVO shill.


Just because I disagree with you about your concerns doesn't mean I don't have my own, (what I consider) more legitimate beefs with TiVo. Like reliability. And robustness of design. Really important things, AFAIC.

You sound like a whiner, but I know that you really feel what you're saying sincerely.



destek said:


> Your statement is assumptive as well and has no more credibility then mine.


My statement highlights the fact that your statement is weakly supported. That's an objective fact. The substantive counter to that is not to deny it  but rather to provide the missing support, the evidence.



destek said:


> Why would I come to this forum if I were not being genuine?


I didn't say that *you* aren't genuine. I said you aren't being genuine in your assertion that you're seriously going to switch to another supplier (the only bit of your earlier statements that project any real critical importance to others in the thread). That's one of those things that you can say all you want, as a reflection of nothing more than anger and frustration, and not really mean it. If you don't want to be accused of just yanking our chains, then put your money where your mouth is and sell your TiVo.



destek said:


> Since I've been a member (with mostly positive things to say about TIVO) since 2001 it's highly unlikely I have any desire to hurt TIVO.


I couldn't care less about helping or hurting TiVo. That has nothing to do with what I've written.



destek said:


> Since when is frustration and anger at how a company uses its customers not credible?


Again, I didn't say your frustration and anger isn't credible -- I actually highlighted that you're exercising frustration and anger. What I questioned whas the credibility of your assertion that you're going to quit TiVo.



destek said:


> Frankly it's more likely you have as much of an agenda here as I - but I'm being clear while yours is clearly obtuse.


Bull. My agenda appears right under my user name, and above my Join Date. It is the only agenda I ever pursue in this forum.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Videodrome said:


> The problem is how tivo does the ads. not the ads itself. The pause ads, including the time progress bar are very annoying, and people like bicker , don't understand the straw principle eventually you are going to break the customer.


Don't think for a minute that I don't know more about the mass-market consumer marketplace than anyone would ever want to know. I spent years of my life in that career, and learned things about human nature -- especially the nature of the American consumer -- that no one would want to know.

People don't like the ads. That's clear. People want there to be some limit that what TiVo is doing has crossed, because that would justify and support their disappointment and upset. That's natural. That's human nature. It doesn't make it _actually _a concern for the business. The business needs to worry about what people *do*, not what people *say*. Talk is cheap.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

RoyK said:


> Most of his postings are inane. As is, certainly, the assertion that those of us who object to ads on our boxes are not being genuine.


"Put up or shut up." If you're really upset, sell your TiVo. Just saying that "this is the straw" is what is *really* "inane". My posting are reality. They're reflections of how the business actually works, not tainted by the wishful thinking and Angry Young Man meanderings of blind consumerism.



RoyK said:


> But many of us do honestly despise them and we will continue to express our disgust with TiVo concerning them in any forum available to us -- including this one.


And people will continue to call you out whenever you project your disgust beyond its appropriate context, i.e., whenever you present your personal disappointment as a critical business failure.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

manu said:


> This proves you dont have a clue and that you dont realize people can get a verizon fios dvr, or a cox cable dvr, or a direct tv dvr, or a moxi hd dvr, or a comcast cable dvr and others and that tivo is the minority now.


Hahahaha. If you think any of those are better, than you're utterly clueless. First, the cable company provided DVRs are exceedingly inferior in almost every way. Their advantages are few: The replacement policy, VOD and PPV, and the fact that they are less expensive up-front. The TiVo, by comparison, is less expensive in the long-run, far more feature-packed, expandable to well over 1TB, networkable (while many of the cable company provided DVRs are not), with TTG so you can carry programming with you wherever you go, etc. The cable company DVRs are good choices for some, but they aren't TiVos.

Mentioning the satellite DVRs really show you don't know what you're talking about. The satellite services don't give you a choice. You *have *to use their equipment; you cannot use the TiVo S3 or TiVo HD on either Dish Network or DirecTV. They refuse to open their networks up (though DirecTV may release their own HD DirecTiVo someday -- and when they do people will choose it over the DirecTV DVR for very specific reasons, reasons representing how TiVo is *better than *the DirecTV DVR).

The Moxi is $100 more expensive than TiVo. If the ads in the menus is worth $100 to you, go for it. And don't come *****ing to use later when Moxi does stuff to their UI or their service that you _don't _like.

And so on. TiVo is not perfect, but it isn't the POS that you're trying to make it out to be.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

wkearney99 said:


> There's no "unapproved" aspect here, nor is anyone bullying. So just drop that whole stupid victimization tactic.


You noticed that too. Pretty lame actually.



wkearney99 said:


> This is a tivo-centric forum, presumably one geared toward the more positive aspects of it.


It isn't even that. I've written a good number of negative comments about TiVo. I doubt that TiVo considers me a friend.



wkearney99 said:


> But, please, spare us the further political correct labeling attempts, that's just a pathetic way to try to bolster a losing argument. Tough up, or hit the road.


Yeah, the lame-ness needs to end. Again: People should put up or shut up. If you want to post comments that refer to "the last straw" then make it clear that you've sold your TiVo and are using something better and less expensive.


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## destek (Jan 15, 2001)

bicker said:


> Again: People should put up or shut up. If you want to post comments that refer to "the last straw" then make it clear that you've sold your TiVo and are using something better and less expensive.


Just to make it clear - my original post was not a "last straw" post wherein I would be selling my TIVO and jumping ship (thought the possibility does now exist where it did not before). I am fully aware that there's little out there that can compete. When TIVO "crossed the line" for me it was a point where I came on this forum, for the first time, and ranted about something I consider bad in TIVOs part. I have many very positive posts (outside of this thread) - but when the ad appeared on the pause menu I was moved to ***** - not defect.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bicker said:


> "Put up or shut up." If you're really upset, sell your TiVo. Just saying that "this is the straw" is what is *really* "inane". My posting are reality. They're reflections of how the business actually works, not tainted by the wishful thinking and Angry Young Man meanderings of blind consumerism.
> 
> And people will continue to call you out whenever you project your disgust beyond its appropriate context, i.e., whenever you present your personal disappointment as a critical business failure.


Heh! My Angry Young Man days ended long before you were born, sonny. And what outrageous pomposity you show for dictating what I should do to express my displeasure.

Further I never said "this is the straw". I've said that many of us are disgusted with TiVo over the proliferation of ads on their otherwise generally decent product. I will continue to express my displeasure in any way I see fit.

If you are going to continue with your inane posts - at least get your facts straight!


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

RoyK said:


> Heh! My Angry Young Man days ended long before you were born, sonny.


I highly doubt that, bub. However, it isn't surprising to see you making such a contribution to the thread. 



RoyK said:


> And what outrageous pomposity you show for dictating what I should do to express my displeasure.


Not at all. Before saying that someone, whether it be a person or a company, is making bad decisions, it is reasonable to expect that you would have some proof the decisions are actually bad. If you, yourself, aren't actually prompted to action, it isn't reasonable to expect that a significant number of people would be.

And that's putting aside the fact that we're talking about something relative unimportant, easily ignore-able -- not something critical like reliability, robustness, etc.



RoyK said:


> Further I never said "this is the straw".


You're just one person bashing TiVo in this thread, Roy -- it isn't always about you. Indeed, no one was talking about you at all, before you jumped into the fray solely to attack me personally. Yes, you've really "contributed" to the thread, Roy.


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## mec1991 (Nov 5, 2004)

I think it boils down to this: TiVo is going to do whatever they feel they must in order to survive (or gasp, even make a profit ). They have to walk a fine line between their duty to their stockholders, their relationship with content providers and likewise with the advertisers who pay for the content in the first place. And of course with their subscribers who, unless they also fall into one of the above groups, will have a "tipping point" IMHO. I am not at that point yet but am getting close as I just have never liked "in your face" anything, be it ads or whatever. In a perfect world we would not even be discussing this; TiVo would have become a profitable mainstream CE company. Sadly that's not the case.

It just seems to me that the company is moving further and further away from the subscribers and closer to the content providers. This is, unfortunately, most likely the wave of the future not just for them but for all related services as well. 

My personal viewing needs are probably a lot different from most and I think I could get by with torrents from XTVi and an eyeTV for my Macbook. Note I wrote "get by", not "be better off with". If I ever do leave TiVo I will miss it and the experience of having used them for the past 8 years.

I just wish they would give me a choice between ads and a higher service charge; instead of 6.95 a month, charge me 16.95. I would go for that without blinking. Unfortunately we live in a society where people whine and ***** about any charge at all so I doubt TiVo would even consider that option. Still, I wish I had the choice.

And now back to the regularly scheduled bickering...


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bicker said:


> ...Not at all. Before saying that someone, whether it be a person or a company, is making bad decisions, it is reasonable to expect that you would have some proof the decisions are actually bad. If you, yourself, aren't actually prompted to action, it isn't reasonable to expect that a significant number of people would be.


I 've said that the ads disgust me. Whether the decision is good or bad (for TiVo) remains to be seen. Again get your facts straight. Posting here so prospective customers can make an informed decision to buy or not IS an action.



bicker said:


> And that's putting aside the fact that we're talking about something relative unimportant, easily ignore-able -- not something critical like reliability, robustness, etc.


Unimportant to you, not to many of us. Trivializing the issue won't make it go away.



bicker said:


> You're just one person bashing TiVo in this thread, Roy -- it isn't always about you.


Oh? The comment I responded to was directly below your quote of me,



bicker said:


> Indeed, no one was talking about you at all, before you jumped into the fray solely to attack me personally. Yes, you've really "contributed" to the thread, Roy.


Your comments just make it too hard to resist responding to - they are that absurd.


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## manu (May 15, 2009)

bicker said:


> Hahahaha. If you think any of those are better, than you're utterly clueless. First, the cable company provided DVRs are exceedingly inferior in almost every way. Their advantages are few: The replacement policy, VOD and PPV, and the fact that they are less expensive up-front. The TiVo, by comparison, is less expensive in the long-run, far more feature-packed, expandable to well over 1TB, networkable (while many of the cable company provided DVRs are not), with TTG so you can carry programming with you wherever you go, etc. The cable company DVRs are good choices for some, but they aren't TiVos.
> 
> Mentioning the satellite DVRs really show you don't know what you're talking about. The satellite services don't give you a choice. You *have *to use their equipment; you cannot use the TiVo S3 or TiVo HD on either Dish Network or DirecTV. They refuse to open their networks up (though DirecTV may release their own HD DirecTiVo someday -- and when they do people will choose it over the DirecTV DVR for very specific reasons, reasons representing how TiVo is *better than *the DirecTV DVR).
> 
> ...


 I never said any any thing even close to tivo being a POS! YOU DID!


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## manu (May 15, 2009)

how about a poll to see who is happy with tivos ads? maybe that would shed some light on the issue>


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

i farted on my tivo and the ads went away.

then i started reading the ridiculous posts in this thread arguing about the ads, and they came back 

ads hate farts

ads love arguments

i like cheese

(this post has about as much meaning as 98&#37; of the posts in this thread) move on people


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## mec1991 (Nov 5, 2004)

Da Goon said:


> i like cheese
> 
> (this post has about as much meaning as 98% of the posts in this thread) move on people


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

wkearney99 said:


> Which assumes you're in possession of some deeper understanding about customer behavior. Your proof of this is, what? I mean, besides just being a crank?


I thought this board was for the discussion of Tivo, if i am mistaken please let me know. Otherwise if it just a "positive" opinion only place to speak, then why have this board at all. This wasn't mentioned in the rules i read. Are you a moderator ?


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

manu said:


> how about a poll to see who is happy with tivos ads? maybe that would shed some light on the issue>


That would be constructive, but the people on this board arent for positive constructive arguments, they want to dictate to you everything.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Videodrome said:


> That would be constructive, but the people on this board arent for positive constructive arguments, they want to dictate to you everything.


Which is why we have no threads where people are complaining about the ads, right?


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> That would be constructive, but the people on this board arent for positive constructive arguments, they want to dictate to you everything.


Nobody is stopping you. At the same time, what would the poll do? Not every member here will vote and what will it accomplish, really? For one side or the other to go "I told ya so!"?

TiVo won't use any such poll here as proof of anything.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Turtleboy said:


> SGR215, if everyone thought like you did, then what's the financial motivation for networks to make and broadcast tv shows?


Times change. If companies don't develop new strategies to adapt, they will end up like Chrysler, GM, and the record companies. You can only keep doing the same ol' thing for so many decades and then eventually the world passes you by.

Unfortunately Hollywood doesn't have much of a track record embracing new technology (or any kind of forward thinking for that matter). Their mindset has always been about maintaining the status quo through litigation, and continuing to extract as much money as possible from it through greed. 6 to 10 minutes of advertising/hour has become 12 to 24. At this rate it will soon be 30. It seems clear this old model is (or soon will be) dead.

TV faces new models of distribution and revenue. They can choose to ignore it and end up behind the eight ball like the record companies, or they can embrace it with fresh ideas, embracing and supporting new technology, and recognizing that owning part of a much bigger pie is better than owning all of what amounts to little or no pie at all.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

manu said:


> how about a poll to see who is happy with tivos ads? maybe that would shed some light on the issue>


How about not being ridiculous. I dont think there's hoards of people saying they LIKE the ads or are HAPPY with them. Just because people say they understand doesnt mean they are HAPPY with it.

Lots of people say they understand why they exist or find them 'not all that bad' at the moment.

HUGE difference.

How about we post a poll if people would like to get paid more for their job?


if you want to post a poll- then how a bout a logical one with options like :
-I am Happy they put more ads (so you can see there will be pretty much NO one saying that)
-I am disgusted with the ads and will stop paying TiVo (apparently this will be a very small pile based upon comments here no one is really ready to leave over it)
I hate the ads but wont leave tivo as I still prefer this over any other option currently available to me- so I'll just ***** here (seems there are plenty of these)
I dont enjoy them but understand the need and so far they haven't pissed me off totally. (again a pretty big pile)

Then use your brain to interpret the results and understand that people that feel negatively are more apt to look for such a thread and vote so your results will be skewed that way also

That might be a worthwhile poll


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

MichaelK said:


> That might be a worthwhile poll


How about a poll that includes the current ads along with a bunch of worse scenarios for people to choose what would truly be their "line in the sand"?

I asked that question (either here or in another one of these kinds of threads) and only got one answer (which was pretty lenient).


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## manu (May 15, 2009)

wkearney99 said:


> There's no "unapproved" aspect here, nor is anyone bullying. So just drop that whole stupid victimization tactic. This is a tivo-centric forum, presumably one geared toward the more positive aspects of it. That negative commentary isn't met with open arms, gee what a surprise... not. But, please, spare us the further political correct labeling attempts, that's just a pathetic way to try to bolster a losing argument. Tough up, or hit the road.
> 
> Likewise, there are plenty of "alternatives" to many products. Those owning a given brand, perhaps one that's more expensive, are often quite willing to accept the price premium that comes with it. Having used the directv and verizon units, along with MCE and Myth, I can tell you they're nowhere near as convenient as the Tivo for the primary purpose of being a brand-dead simple, always dependable and ready-to-use product for time-shifting TV programming. That and the unacceptably low 'spousal-acceptance-factor' of the others is a the primary driver for us keeping the Tivo.
> 
> The ad things are annoying but they're basically easy to ignore... at this point. Meanwhile the Tivo continues to do a superior job at being a DVR and worth the price we pay for the service.


You have your opinion and others have theirs but this is my point exactly. You same group of bullies wont let people complain about tivo with out calling them all sorts of childish names. The good thing is that people all over the internet are seeing the posts about tivos ads and how upset people are getting and more and more people are choosing another dvr besides tivo and that hurts tivos bottom line so keep up the discussion guys and dont let those tivo bullies quiet you!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I'm gonna start a poll. 

No wait... found one: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=365583


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## SGR215 (Jan 20, 2004)

MickeS said:


> I'm gonna start a poll.
> 
> No wait... found one: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=365583


That poll doesn't help much. It's from 2007 so the people who voted "Keep the ads as is" could very well have changed to "Stop the ads". The ads have increased massively since 2007. Also, although this is purely speculation, I'd be willing there are people who regret voting "Increase the ads" now.

C'mon mods, why not do what DSLReports does when a topic becomes insanely popular and make a sticky for it and merge/lock all posts outside of the sticky? I think this would be beneficial for both sides. Perhaps even make a poll for it too.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

bicker said:


> Mentioning the satellite DVRs really show you don't know what you're talking about. The satellite services don't give you a choice. You *have *to use their equipment; you cannot use the TiVo S3 or TiVo HD on either Dish Network or DirecTV. They refuse to open their networks up (though DirecTV may release their own HD DirecTiVo someday -- and when they do people will choose it over the DirecTV DVR for very specific reasons, reasons representing how TiVo is *better than *the DirecTV DVR).


I generally agree with your assessment of American consumer and "put up or shut up" attitude toward people proclaiming that "Tivo crossed the line". I do believe that TiVo just like any other business will not change current business plan due to the complaints and will continue on a path of giving Wall Street a reason to hope for a light at the end of the tunnel. Having said that, I can not disagree with you more on your assessment of satellite DVRs as not legitimate alternative to TiVo. I'm not sure if you have current HD DVRs from Dish or DirecTV, but I do have both. I subscribe to both because it it is a only way to get the programming I want and can afford to pay for.
I honestly believe (based on my own experience) that Dish VIP line is better and more capable than TiVo for the absolute majority of consumers and that DirecTV HD DVRs are close second.
Most important functions of any DVR are core functions that made DVRs a product in a leage of their own - easy timeshifting based on EPG, trick play and commercial skip. All the other bells and whistles that both TiVo and satellite DVRs have are nice and depending on a personal preference could influence individual opinion, but are not substitute for the core functions.
Both satellite DVRs and TiVo do timeshifting and trick play well, but TiVo is the only one that is slowly turning commercial skip into commercial add.
Your argument about the choice of DVRs with satellite is completely irrelevant. If DVRs provided by satellite companies are doing the job well at the reasonable cost, there is no reason to look for the alternative. Just like there is no reason to look for the alternative to a power meter provided by your utility company.
As for people jumping from DirecTv DVRs to TiVo if and when it becomes available, it is a big stretch. Most resistance from TiVo users to DirecTv DVRs was different UI - not worse but different. It does take couple of weeks to get used to it if you have been using TiVo for a while. But after initial adjustment curve some things on DirecTv UI become must have. People who never had TiVo before (majority of DirecTv DVR users) will not like a switch any better when the other way around. In addition, if DirecTv allows TiVo to have extra ads, there is almost a guarantee that new DirecTivo will be a failure.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

samo said:


> Having said that, I can not disagree with you more on your assessment of satellite DVRs as not legitimate alternative to TiVo.


Whoa... I never said it wasn't. What I said was that it was inappropriate to compare a satellite service DVR to a TiVo. Satellite service DVRs will not work with cable, and TiVos will not work with satellite service. They are not interchangeable, as a Motorola DCT-3416 from Comcast *is* interchangeable with a TiVo HD.

If you go with satellite, you're making a decision between cable and satellite service, not between DVRs.



samo said:


> Both satellite DVRs and TiVo do timeshifting and trick play well, but TiVo is the only one that is slowly turning commercial skip into commercial add.


So far. TiVo tends to be out on the forefront.

Beyond that, remember what I've said at least once in this thread already: *There may not be any viable business case for a stand-alone DVR*. TiVo may be well-advised to shut down its stand-alone DVR operation and just sell DVRs or just DVR software to service providers, who can foster their revenues by increasing their monthly fees.



samo said:


> Your argument about the choice of DVRs with satellite is completely irrelevant. If DVRs provided by satellite companies are doing the job well at the reasonable cost, there is no reason to look for the alternative.


Your logic is wrong, for the reasons I mentioned above. If you're choosing satellite, you're choosing it instead of cable, not instead of TiVo.  Unless you're taking business too personally, and translating peevishness about ads in the menus into something that basically spites yourself, by prompting you to make a poor service decision, because you are allowing something inconsequential about your DVR affect you overmuch.



samo said:


> As for people jumping from DirecTv DVRs to TiVo if and when it becomes available, it is a big stretch. Most resistance from TiVo users to DirecTv DVRs was different UI - not worse but different. It does take couple of weeks to get used to it if you have been using TiVo for a while. But after initial adjustment curve some things on DirecTv UI become must have.


Which explains very clearly why DirecTV has agree to work with TiVo on a new offering.

Oh wait, no it doesn't. 

Sorry, samo, you're wrong about that. DirecTV recognizes the advantage that offering TiVo as a premium DVR, in addition to the basic DVR they currently offer.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

bicker said:


> Whoa... I never said it wasn't. What I said was that it was inappropriate to compare a satellite service DVR to a TiVo. Satellite service DVRs will not work with cable, and TiVos will not work with satellite service. They are not interchangeable, as a Motorola DCT-3416 from Comcast *is* interchangeable with a TiVo HD.
> 
> If you go with satellite, you're making a decision between cable and satellite service, not between DVRs.


I do agree with that. Except for the small percentage ("I dropped satellite and went with cable because of TiVo" or "I will switch to satellite because of ads") people make decision on what service to use based on programming choice and cost. 


> Which explains very clearly why DirecTV has agree to work with TiVo on a new offering.
> 
> Oh wait, no it doesn't.
> 
> Sorry, samo, you're wrong about that. DirecTV recognizes the advantage that offering TiVo as a premium DVR, in addition to the basic DVR they currently offer.


Most likely reason DirecTV signed up with TiVo is the outcome of the Dish lawsuit. Notice that they are not replacing DirecTV DVRs with TiVo, they will offer TiVo as an option. They are working on MRV and dual buffer among other things (in beta now) and slowly but surely negating any advantages that TiVo has over DirecTV line. By the time new DirecTivo becomes available, there may be nothing left so desirable that people will want to switch or pay extra for the TiVo. It is also possible that current hardware will be used and TiVo software will be an optional download like Comcast Tivo. In this case the difference will be even smaller. By playing nice with TiVo DirecTv is preventing costly lawsuit and in a same time may gain some TiVo fan base cable converts. They have nothing to lose, smart move regardless of actual number of TiVos they sell.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

manu said:


> You have your opinion and others have theirs but this is my point exactly. You same group of bullies wont let people complain about tivo with out calling them all sorts of childish names. The good thing is that people all over the internet are seeing the posts about tivos ads and how upset people are getting and more and more people are choosing another dvr besides tivo and that hurts tivos bottom line so keep up the discussion guys and dont let those tivo bullies quiet you!


for every "bully" there's someone posting childish comments like "people are happy to have more ads"

goes both ways .

grownup conversation is much preferred from BOTH sides of the discussion.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bicker said:


> ...The Moxi is $100 more expensive than TiVo. If the ads in the menus is worth $100 to you, go for it...





mec1991 said:


> ...I just wish (TiVo) would give me a choice between ads and a higher service charge; instead of 6.95 a month, charge me 16.95...I wish I had the choice...


*Ad Free for $100 more! *:up::up::up:

(Don't like the Search Link on TiVo's pause bar but most DVR ads aren't a big peeve of mine. But *Ad Free* is refreshing!)


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

fallingwater said:


> *Ad Free for $100 more! *:up::up::up:
> 
> (Don't like the Search Link on TiVo's pause bar but most DVR ads aren't a big peeve of mine. But *Ad Free* is refreshing!)


Plus there is no subscription charge, its a deal.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

And it grows on trees. 

Seriously, I cannot wait, though, until Moxi makes the first change that its owners don't like. They'll go on and on, afflicted by their entitlement mentality, about how they were promised certain things (they weren't) and how they were betrayed. 

Kind-of like what goes on here sometimes.


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## manu (May 15, 2009)

bicker said:


> And it grows on trees.
> 
> Seriously, I cannot wait, though, until Moxi makes the first change that its owners don't like. They'll go on and on, afflicted by their entitlement mentality, about how they were promised certain things (they weren't) and how they were betrayed.
> 
> Kind-of like what goes on here sometimes.


You seem to have a problem with other peoples dislike of the ads.

Does it bother you that they dont like them or that they tell others about their dislike of them?

No offense meant but you seem soo angry about their opinions.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Neither really, and no I'm not angry about any opinions. Rather, I object to the entitlement mentality that is the sole basis of many comments made, and don't see any reason to grant an unrebutted soap-box to entitlement mentality, which essentially little more than a social ill that is adversely affecting our society. Why you _support _such an unwarranted sense of entitlement is beyond me, but it is your right to do so.


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## 98dbk3 (Jun 21, 2006)

bicker said:


> Neither really, and no I'm not angry about any opinions. Rather, I object to the entitlement mentality that is the sole basis of many comments made, and don't see any reason to grant an unrebutted soap-box to entitlement mentality, which essentially little more than a social ill that is adversely affecting our society. Why you _support _such an unwarranted sense of entitlement is beyond me, but it is your right to do so.


That is pure and utter nonsense. I have three Tivo's one lifetime, two subbed, and I love all three dearly. As you can tell by my post count I pretty much never post, mainly because up until recently I was more than happy with my purchases. But I feel that I can not let such a comment slide.

This is a product that people such as myself have paid good money for, and slowly but surely more and more ads have crept into more and more places. I don't know about you but I paid for a DVR not an Ad box.....I know, I know ( but cable does it to and so on and so forth ). Well excuse me but I would like to think that Tivo would strive to be a head above cable, not only in the product itself ( which it most definitely is ), but also in the way it is presented.

I think they have indeed finally started to go over the line, and if this keeps up when my year contract on the two subbed Tivo's are up I will put my money where my mouth is and cancel them which would be a darn shame considering the fact that, as I've mentioned earlier, I love my Tivo's.

To anyone from Tivo who may frequent this board and may be reading this I hope you think long and hard about this post because I have a feeling that there are quite a few other customers who feel the same as I do, but are two intimidated by such posts as the one quoted above to speak up.

Take this post for what it's worth or ignore it as just another person whining..whatever, after all at the end of the day It's up to the folks at Tivo to figure out what kind of product they want to have.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

98dbk3 said:


> That is pure and utter nonsense.


No, it actually isn't.



98dbk3 said:


> This is a product that people such as myself have paid good money for


Hey bub: I have *four* (the three listed below and the Humax S2 in my basement). Your money isn't any better than mine. I keep it real: I don't let my personal bias trump my rational logic.



98dbk3 said:


> and slowly but surely more and more ads have crept into more and more places.


That's life. Where in your contract was it written that that would not happen?



98dbk3 said:


> I don't know about you but I paid for a DVR not an Ad box.....


The box does exactly what it was always promised to do.



98dbk3 said:


> I think they have indeed finally started to go over the line, and if this keeps up when my year contract on the two subbed Tivo's are up I will put my money where my mouth is and cancel them which would be a darn shame considering the fact that, as I've mentioned earlier, I love my Tivo's.


Get back to me when you really do that.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

manu said:


> I It does not make sense to me that people would come into this thread just to argue and antagonize the original poster, unless your just tivo fans and cant handle other peoples rights to free speech.


so you say we should not post our own speech since we can not handle your right to your free speech. You do realize there is no logic nor freedom in your comment? Right?



RoyK said:


> Heck, some users would have no problem with the ads if they contained audio shouted by Billy Mays at 125 dB. (Zeo would no doubt just say that it has always been his habit to hit the mute button before he hits the pause button followed by the FF button.)


I strive to post comments that are as accurate and honest as I can make them. I would not post such a ridiculous statement. I do realize you had a sarcastic bent in your example though, but just wanted to comment that the sarcasm stems from implying something I would do that is way over the top of what I would actually do.

No one would currently hit mute before pause since the pause button currently stops the audio as well. I have no issue with an ad that shows quietly on screen when I pause but I do indeed sometimes pause in order to try and hear something else or else to speak to someone. 
Audio playing upon hitting the pause button would clearly cross my line of making me do something different in order to use my TiVo DVR from the way that I use it now. I would find such audio to be very annoying and doubt TiVo would ever think that would work well for them. It is because of the barrier of not being able to TRULY upset subscribers so they would ACTUALLY stop using TiVo that I am ok with ads being a fact of media content we do NOT directly pay the production costs of. If I want to continue to watch shows without 3 minutes of ads stopping the flow of the show every so often then I have to either pay a lot more to see that content, deal with ads in some form that pays for it or else go illegal and pirate the content. Only 2 of those ensure that good content has a chance of being made and I have little desire to go back to the first option of 3 minutes of ads playing every so often in my house. That really just leaves the option that TiVo is currently writing the infrastructure for.

Bottom line I give my honest reply to the various ways people post about how they dislike ads. People are free to post what they will either from their own view or in reply to my post. I ask though that they keep it honest and real in their own turn.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Do all you complaining so loudly(and repeatedly) about a line of text on your TiVo screen also complain to the networks about their screen crawls that cover up captioning and often have sound effects? Nevermind that some cover up the bottom 5th of your TV screen.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Videodrome said:


> Plus there is no subscription charge, its a deal.


the comparison with moxi costing 100 more is including LIFETIME service on the tivo.

they aren't apples to apples since the hard drive sizes aren't the same. But you can buy a tivo with NO subscription charge for cheaper than a moxi. that's the bottom line.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

I love it when I see complaints like this, it just makes me laugh.


Hey, Tivo has to make money somehow. yeah, we pay them, but are those tiny little ads REALLY enough to get your panties in a bunch over? No, they're not. Simply ignore them and move on with your life.

You can whine and complain about every little thing, or you can get a life, and only tackle the big stuff. This is one of those little, itty bitty things that you just don't need to be anal about.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

twhiting9275 said:


> .....
> 
> Hey, Tivo has to make money somehow. ....


No, they don't. Companies go belly up every day. 
If their business model brings in enough money they'll make it. If it doesn't they won't. Life will go on either way.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

98dbk3 said:


> ...if this keeps up when my year contract on the two subbed Tivo's are up I will put my money where my mouth is and cancel them which would be a darn shame considering the fact that, as I've mentioned earlier, I love my Tivo's.
> 
> To anyone from Tivo who may frequent this board and may be reading this I hope you think long and hard about this post because I have a feeling that there are quite a few other customers who feel the same as I do, but are two intimidated by such posts as the one quoted above to speak up.
> 
> Take this post for what it's worth or ignore it as just another person whining..whatever, after all at the end of the day It's up to the folks at Tivo to figure out what kind of product they want to have.


I think the only way to get tivo to listen is for some of the people complaining to actually do something and cancel and let tivo know why.

there's multiple threads with several hundred (possible a few thousand) posts between them. I have yet to see a single person actually stop writing tivo a check- there's lots of threats but i haven't seen anyone say "I called tivo yesterday and cancelled my sub". Surely if so many folks are so offended then one of them must be out of their committment and could make the call today.

granted I haven't taken the effort to read all the other threads- so if there is such a post please share.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

RoyK said:


> No, they don't. Companies go belly up every day.
> If their business model brings in enough money they'll make it. If it doesn't they won't. Life will go on either way.


i think the point was for those of us who own tivo's we would like them to remain in business and not go belly up. So for that to happen they have to make a profit- or at least break even- or at least hold out that possibility to investors and banks to keep borrowing money to continue to provide us service.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

I don't see Tivo going belly up, but you're right, that was the point. We pay very nominal fees for the huge service that Tivo provides us. Pause ads? Ads in their menu? I bet the people complaining about those are the same people that think they deserve the right to run ad blockers and actually try to get everything for "free". Uggh!

Tivo does an outstanding job of blending their minimal ads in when they do. I have no problem with them doing that at all. Of COURSE they make money from doing so, you didn't expect your $14/month subscription to actually keep them in business did you?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Langree said:


> Do all you complaining so loudly(and repeatedly) about a line of text on your TiVo screen also complain to the networks about their screen crawls that cover up captioning and often have sound effects? Nevermind that some cover up the bottom 5th of your TV screen.


Holy Crap! Do you get an early airing of the Family Guy?! 
Your post goes perfect with (parts of) tonight's season finale.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> Holy Crap! Do you get an early airing of the Family Guy?!
> Your post goes perfect with (parts of) tonight's season finale.


Ya, given my post I found it very funny.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

I hate these adds but TiVo has a right to do it. 

Given the money I already sunk into the TiVo units & lifetime service plans and my opinion that it is still better than cable DVRs, I guess I will have to suck it up and live ith the ads.

The ads have gotten progressively more obtrusive with each new software release and we are now much farther down that slippery slope that was predicted earlier. In fact we are pretty greasy and are probably near the bottom.

I would have hoped that TiVo could have made enough money off their statistical data sales rather than plastering ads.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't, situation: If TiVo's statistical data become more valuable, then the commercials themselves become less valuable, so the _networks_ would be driven even faster towards presenting more invasive advertising themselves!


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

twhiting9275 said:


> I don't see Tivo going belly up, but you're right, that was the point. We pay very nominal fees for the huge service that Tivo provides us. Pause ads? Ads in their menu? I bet the people complaining about those are the same people that think they deserve the right to run ad blockers and actually try to get everything for "free". Uggh!


Whether or not they go belly up remains to be seen.

"Deserve the right to run ad blockers? - well, no. But I'm darned sure going to use them as long as I do have the right to do so.

"Try to get everything for "free"? well one would have to be a fiscal idiot to pay for something that he can legally and easily get at no cost. Bear in mind that the entire root of the TiVo software is based on code that they got for free....



twhiting9275 said:


> Tivo does an outstanding job of blending their minimal ads in when they do. I have no problem with them doing that at all. Of COURSE they make money from doing so, you didn't expect your $14/month subscription to actually keep them in business did you?


Actually not counting hardware costs TiVo receives about $36/month from me -- currently.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Bear in mind that the entire root of the TiVo software is based on code that they got for free....


So you are next to post something totally silly?
TiVo has the operating kernel, that they stripped dwon for free and I assume bonjour is free.

but really we buy TiVo DVRs because they can parse the video while recording for great playback with reliable trickplay features. The fact the recordings happen on two tuners with two live buffers we switch between is a big added value as well.

The fact is this root value of TiVo is what they developed themselves in house and that it has been affirmed as copyrighted software by the USPO and federal courts.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Didn't Rogers recently talk about how advertisers need to get serious about the DVR world?

If you think the ads are bad now... 

This is one area I'm afraid Tivo isn't going to let up on. The best we can hope for is the interface gets updated so that ads have a true "place", and aren't so tacked-on looking.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So you are next to post something totally silly?
> TiVo has the operating kernel, that they stripped dwon for free and I assume bonjour is free.
> 
> but really we buy TiVo DVRs because they can parse the video while recording for great playback with reliable trickplay features. The fact the recordings happen on two tuners with two live buffers we switch between is a big added value as well.
> ...


Silly? I think not. If TiVo hadn't used Linux and instead had to write their own OS or pay a licensing fee for every copy used they'd be in even worse fiscal shape than they are now -- if they existed at all.

Additionally my post was made to refute the notion of the poster I responded to that it was somehow "UggH!" to get something for free.

This is not to say that TiVo didn't write (or pay to have written) the software running on top of what they got for free that is necessary to make the product what it is.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The best we can hope for is the interface gets updated so that ads have a true "place", and aren't so tacked-on looking.


 :up:

Damn I like that idea! An online "store" where advertisers can show their wares. I don't think it appropriate to be in the NPL, but a new category in Tivo Central would be good. Replace the line or two under Messages and Settings with a new menu entry for the store, and all would be happy! Well, maybe not "all", as I believe a few are just NEVER happy...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Didn't Rogers recently talk about how advertisers need to get serious about the DVR world?
> 
> If you think the ads are bad now...
> 
> This is one area I'm afraid Tivo isn't going to let up on. The best we can hope for is the interface gets updated so that ads have a true "place", and aren't so tacked-on looking.


Absolutely: TiVo is well-placed to prove to advertisers that they *need *a new vehicle for getting their message to the eyes of potential customers (with their data showing how many DVR users skip commercials), and also for *providing *a new vehicle of getting advertisers' message to the eyes of potential customers in a manner where it cannot be skipped (or at least not counted, and therefore paid-for, if it is skipped).


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## manu (May 15, 2009)

I do not have a dvr yet and I came here looking for information on tivo. I wanted to see what the people who use them are saying. It seems there are many people who think tivo is going in a bad direction with the ads and it seems they have been getting worse over the past few weeks/months as more and more people are here stating their displeasure so I think I will be going with a different dvr because of these ads. Thanks for all your input!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

manu said:


> I will be going with a different dvr because of these ads. Thanks for all your input!


so what are you going with?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> :up:
> 
> Damn I like that idea! An online "store" where advertisers can show their wares. I don't think it appropriate to be in the NPL, but a new category in Tivo Central would be good. Replace the line or two under Messages and Settings with a new menu entry for the store, and all would be happy! Well, maybe not "all", as I believe a few are just NEVER happy...


That's what Showcases was intended to be (or at least what it has become). 
I suspect few ever go there.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

The funny thing is that except for the first time I see an ad in a new spot (like after a show is over, in Now Playing, pause) I don't notice them AT ALL anymore. I seriously couldn't tell you about a single product that TiVo is advertising right now, except a "yellow star ad" for "The Girlfriend Experience" that a friend pointed out to me.

So even though some make a big stink about the ads, I suspect that there are many like me out there who simply filter them out. Which as I've said before makes me wonder how effective these things are.

I would in any case not take this into consideration when looking at DVRs. Maybe if everything else was equal, it would be a factor, but as we all know, everything else is NOT equal.


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## manu (May 15, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so what are you going with?[/QU
> 
> Probably the moxi but maybe the verizon fios since they have a promotion for one year free dvr if I sign up this month.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

manu said:


> ZeoTiVo said:
> 
> 
> > so what are you going with?[/QU
> ...


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

manu said:


> ZeoTiVo said:
> 
> 
> > so what are you going with?[/QU
> ...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> :up:
> 
> Damn I like that idea! An online "store" where advertisers can show their wares. I don't think it appropriate to be in the NPL, but a new category in Tivo Central would be good. Replace the line or two under Messages and Settings with a new menu entry for the store, and all would be happy! Well, maybe not "all", as I believe a few are just NEVER happy...


Maybe even call it "showcases" or something like that?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> manu said:
> 
> 
> > if you can get a free year of DVR from Verizon then i would start there. A lot of what this forum talks about is hard to register completely until you have had a DVR for a while. So getting one free and living with it and finding out what you like and dislike is the big first step anyhow.
> ...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

there should be a different word for rental cable dvrs so no one confuses them with the likes of tivo, moxi, and the satellite dvr's.

they are really second class.

Maybe they should be called 'tapeless vhs' or something. laughing


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## manu (May 15, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> manu said:
> 
> 
> > if you can get a free year of DVR from Verizon then i would start there. A lot of what this forum talks about is hard to register completely until you have had a DVR for a while. So getting one free and living with it and finding out what you like and dislike is the big first step anyhow.
> ...


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

I can't speak for FiOS, but before going to TiVo I had two Comcast provided Moto DCT3416's and had "no issues" with them. While they do not support MRV, and searching and guide data are not as complete as TiVo, I did appreciated knowing how much free space was on the drive, and seeing in the guide the shows that were scheduled to record.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

solutionsetc said:


> I can't speak for FiOS, but before going to TiVo I had two Comcast provided Moto DCT3416's and had "no issues" with them. While they do not support MRV, and searching and guide data are not as complete as TiVo, I did appreciated knowing how much free space was on the drive, and seeing in the guide the shows that were scheduled to record.


knowing how much free space IS critical when there is hardly any space to begin with and you can't expand your storage. 

kidding aside- there is apparently one brand of software that people say doesn't suck. Unfortunately comcast and the rest insist on also deploying the crappy software in many markets. Must be a cost thing.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bicker said:


> ...I cannot wait, though, until Moxi makes the first change that its owners don't like. They'll go on and on, afflicted by their entitlement mentality, about how they were promised certain things (they weren't) and how they were betrayed.
> 
> Kind-of like what goes on here sometimes.


Moxi already does a number of things I don't like. As does TiVo, Sony, and ReplayTV among others. 

Analog TVGOS doesn't even work anymore. (Oops, TVGOS wuz free, so I can't kick!)

Every DVR's a compromise.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

MichaelK said:


> knowing how much free space IS critical when there is hardly any space to begin with and you can't expand your storage.
> 
> kidding aside- there is apparently one brand of software that people say doesn't suck. Unfortunately comcast and the rest insist on also deploying the crappy software in many markets. Must be a cost thing.


Maybe... but to be fair I have had Comcast's moto boxes since they rolled out HD programming in my area and the only issue I ever had was them slowing down a bit in processing commands when after they started rolling out all the on demand stuff. The newer hardware (3400 series) corrected this.

I decided to look again at TiVo for the MRV (I was a ReplayTV fan before HD) and I must admit I felt a little trepidation based on all the reports of failed units with the current models. In fact, one of the two new TiVos I purchased rebooted itself no less than 6 times in the first two weeks. Amazon replaced that unit and so far no problems.

I just wanted to point out that my experience over the last few years with the CableCo HD DVRs was good.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Absolutely. For folks who want to least personal angst, go with the cable company DVR. Those folks seem to be able to better hold out hope for improvement, because they've invested so little up-front.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

fallingwater said:


> ...
> Every DVR's a compromise.


^very wise


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

solutionsetc said:


> Maybe... but to be fair I have had Comcast's moto boxes since they rolled out HD programming in my area and the only issue I ever had was them slowing down a bit in processing commands when after they started rolling out all the on demand stuff. The newer hardware (3400 series) corrected this.
> 
> I decided to look again at TiVo for the MRV (I was a ReplayTV fan before HD) and I must admit I felt a little trepidation based on all the reports of failed units with the current models. In fact, one of the two new TiVos I purchased rebooted itself no less than 6 times in the first two weeks. Amazon replaced that unit and so far no problems.
> 
> I just wanted to point out that my experience over the last few years with the CableCo HD DVRs was good.


probably would be helpfull for your to tell people what software those moto boxes were using so they know what is decent.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

bicker said:


> Absolutely. For folks who want to least personal angst, go with the cable company DVR. Those folks seem to be able to better hold out hope for improvement, because they've invested so little up-front.


Not to sound flippant... but as I have not looked at TiVo since the series 2, and as you have been here since 2003, what has TiVo improved upon in the last 4 years? With the exception of some rough around the edges internet connectivity (order a pizza, youtube, NetFlix, etc.), it seems pretty much the same.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

MichaelK said:


> probably would be helpfull for your to tell people what software those moto boxes were using so they know what is decent.


Not sure if you're referring to rev numbers or something else. I am sorry I can't help with rev #s as I don't remember what the last ones might have been. The interface of the guide data was clearly from TV Guide (if that helps).


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> ....what has TiVo improved upon in the last 4 years? With the exception of some rough around the edges internet connectivity (order a pizza, youtube, NetFlix, etc.), it seems pretty much the same.


Huh? What, are you living in a cave? (or read my sig) Ummm....does the Series 3 come to mind?


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Bierboy said:


> Huh? What, are you living in a cave?


Well yeah... as far as TiVo is concerned (didn't I mention that previously?).



> Ummm....does the Series 3 come to mind?


It does. HD right? External storage (though poorly implemented - and not a requirement for the tech savvy).

I was speaking to core functionality/interface. I did forget to mention "TiVo search", which is great. But can everything else be considered anything but a band-aid considering five years of development opportunity?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> Absolutely. For folks who want to least personal angst, go with the cable company DVR. Those folks seem to be able to better hold out hope for improvement, because they've invested so little up-front.


and if they come into the forum or TiVo.com and see all the features like Netlfix and MRV and TiVoToGo and so on and those do not really excite the person - then maybe just maybe they are better off starting with a cable company DVR. This forum can tend to forget that not everyone is suited to a single product.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> Not to sound flippant... but as I have not looked at TiVo since the series 2, and as you have been here since 2003, what has TiVo improved upon in the last 4 years? With the exception of some rough around the edges internet connectivity (order a pizza, youtube, NetFlix, etc.), it seems pretty much the same.


So how many other DVRs out there download Amazon HD and Netflix HD straight to the box without need of a PC?

How many other DVRs let me keep movies as mpeg files on a PC that anyone in my family can easily pull up and start watching?

How many DVRs let me pull shows off the DVR and autoconvert them to various portable devices?

---
you can say not much has changed but that does not make it true.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you can say not much has changed but that does not make it true.


Very well put.
I started using Tivo in 2006, with a series2 setup . Since then, I've upgraded to the series3 (while keeping the series2), and the changes between the two are great. Of course, there have been changes on the series 2 such as the search functionality,unbox, Desktop changes, so much more.

Tivo is about SOOO much more than DVR, and we don't even get CHARGED for a lot of it. Who are we to complain about a few ads ? Seriously, with what Tivo does, we should be paying so much more than what we are!


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So how many other DVRs out there download Amazon HD and Netflix HD straight to the box without need of a PC?


I believe I acknowledged the internet download stuff



> How many other DVRs let me keep movies as mpeg files on a PC that anyone in my family can easily pull up and start watching?


My ReplayTV did that 5 years ago. So you're saying this is new to series 3?



> How many DVRs let me pull shows off the DVR and autoconvert them to various portable devices?


Also 5 years ago with ReplayTV. Plus I thought Series 2 did this.



> you can say not much has changed but that does not make it true.


So please tell me what what else has changed. I am not bashing TiVo here; hell I just bought two of 'em. But again I am talking about core functionality here

Or perhaps a different tack...

Why can't I schedule a recording to a networked TiVo without using a computer.

Why can't I delete a recording from the now playing list of a networked TiVo?

Why can't I push a recording to another TiVo without using a computer/and avoid CCI no-copy tags?

Why can't conflicts offer the option of using a networked TiVo?

Why can't we enter letters via the numeric keypad instead of that cursor/grid madness?

Why could these be done with other devices 5 years ago and not with TiVo? Plus these all appear to be pretty frequently requested features from TiVo Users over the years so why have they not been implemented?


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

solutionsetc said:


> I believe I acknowledged the internet download stuff
> 
> My ReplayTV did that 5 years ago. So you're saying this is new to series 3?
> 
> ...


Quite a list you have there Skippy. So what DVR does all of that and will work with any cable company in the US?

That's what I thought.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

donnoh said:


> Quite a list you have there Skippy. So what DVR does all of that and will work with any cable company in the US?
> 
> That's what I thought.


What, you're saying his $13/month doesn't entitle him to that? Also, it should have his toast ready when he gets up in the morning, otherwise it's CRAP.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

donnoh said:


> Quite a list you have there Skippy. So what DVR does all of that and will work with any cable company in the US?
> 
> That's what I thought.


Oh there is more... and the condescension is really not necessary or appreciated. I am not sure why so many folks here feel they have to be so rude and defensive when someone points out some of a products shortcomings.

These are simply things other devices have done for years, have been requested by TiVo users for years (based on my initial assessment of TiVo years ago as well as just a few searches of these forums), and seem to have been mysteriously ignored for years.

Yes, they've added downloads from the net, and pizza ordering and other things not related to the core functionality of a DVR, but things related to improving usability seem to have gone AWOL. Ease of use/Elegance of interface was/is a key marketing point for TiVo was/is it not?

Again, I just bought two of these, so obviously I think the TiVo (in its current state) offers more than the competition; but I was disappointed to not see any of these nagging interface issues addressed.


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

MickeS said:


> What, you're saying his $13/month doesn't entitle him to that? Also, it should have his toast ready when he gets up in the morning, otherwise it's CRAP.


Windows PC's should do everything a Mac does and cost the same, but they don't.
A Chevrolet should handle as well as a BMW, but they don't.
You get what you pay for and there will always be people that don't think they have gotten what they've paid for.

I'm happy with my Tivo, do I wish it did everything I wanted it do? Absolutely.
Does it? No.

Tivo runs a business, I'm certain that they are trying to balance a business model that keeps them afloat and doesn't piss off their subscribers. My own company is struggling in this economy and is facing bankruptcy.

Don't fault Tivo for trying to stay alive in this economy.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

donnoh said:


> Tivo runs a business, I'm certain that they are trying to balance a business model that keeps them afloat and doesn't piss off their subscribers. My own company is struggling in this economy and is facing bankruptcy.
> 
> Don't fault Tivo for trying to stay alive in this economy.


I am sorry to hear about your struggles.

I am, for the most part, happy with the TiVos. But from a software developer's point of view, we'll always try and address "some" things that have been asked for in every build (even if we're just in there to fix bugs). I kind of expect that from others. Plus some of these things (alpha-numeric input from the keypad for instance) would be truly trivial to implement and I am amazed it was left out out the new TiVo Search interface.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

solutionsetc said:


> I am sorry to hear about your struggles.
> 
> I am, for the most part, happy with the TiVos. But from a software developer's point of view, we'll always try and address "some" things that have been asked for in every build (even if we're just in there to fix bugs). I kind of expect that from others.


As TiVo does every release. There's all kinds of small changes each release; mostly for the better.

Almost all of your suggested changes run up against the current invariant on a TiVo that the only thing that happens on a TiVo is done by that TiVo (whether direxctly or indirectly). I agree that can be changed, and TiVo has been seriously looking at it for years (they've said so), but it is a major change to their approach. There are certainly hacking and security obstacles to changing that.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> HD right? External storage


It is hard to know what you don't know.

Here are some more: Multi-room viewing. TiVo To Go. TiVo To Come Back. Netflix streaming. Amazon Unbox. Rhapsody. Clipping.

Probably a few dozen more. Rest assured, lots of improvements over the last four years. More than enough.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

bicker said:


> Clipping.


Clipping?


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

CrispyCritter said:


> Almost all of your suggested changes run up against the current invariant on a TiVo that the only thing that happens on a TiVo is done by that TiVo (whether direxctly or indirectly). I agree that can be changed, and TiVo has been seriously looking at it for years (they've said so), but it is a major change to their approach. There are certainly hacking and security obstacles to changing that.


Hard to argue that point as I don't know what kind of shape their code base is in, but surely some thoughtful additions (alpha numeric input) would be trivial to implement.

BTW, is there any place release notes exist documenting what has been added to each build?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Actually, I think it is called overlap protection (?).


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Got it.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

tootal2 said:


> You should see how many ads a cable dvr has. There dvr has ads every where.


What cable DVR box do you have?? My Cox SA DVR box here in San Diego has no ads at all.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Johncv said:


> What cable DVR box do you have?? My Cox SA DVR box here in San Diego has no ads at all.


He was probably referring to iGuide. Cox and Comcast use iGuide on their Motorola DVRs, which typically features large advertising banners placed throughout the UI, including the program guide.


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## captkirk685 (Nov 23, 2006)

mearlus said:


> I just don't get it. I bet users like this are the same ones who call and complain/swear at/threaten their ISP's when they get spam emails.
> 
> Same simple solution applies: ignore it
> 
> ...


I agree, I really don't have a problem if tivo does this, if its going to help them make more money and stay in business.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

solutionsetc said:


> ...
> 
> Again, I just bought two of these, so obviously I think the TiVo (in its current state) offers more than the competition; but I was disappointed to not see any of these nagging interface issues addressed.


I think that is well said. They are still better than the competition but there's some stuff that they could add to really push the things over the top for a DVR and they dont. Like 6-8 years ago the hackers made the think for hacked boxes that looks for conflicts every half hour and asks other boxes on the network to use any free tuners to handle it as a prime example. Why isn't this availible even manually- seems it would be simple at this point with tivo search....


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> I believe I acknowledged the internet download stuff


 yeah, with a dismissive "rough around the edges" comment so you could blow off something you knew was ahead of other DVRs. The Moxi does not have HD and currently needs playOn for instance. I also want the interface for netflix polished up a good bit but it definitely is ahead of any other DVR.



> My ReplayTV did that 5 years ago. So you're saying this is new to series 3?


 for replay that was a hack and why does it have to be new to series 3 to make your list? A series 2 or 3 can play the movies as I use mpeg2 files.



> Also 5 years ago with ReplayTV. Plus I thought Series 2 did this.
> 
> So please tell me what what else has changed. I am not bashing TiVo here; hell I just bought two of 'em. But again I am talking about core functionality here


 series 2 and 3 both can and it happened within the last 2 - 3 years. Still waiting to hear what currently for sale or rent DVR can do this


> Or perhaps a different tack...
> 
> Why can't I schedule a recording to a networked TiVo without using a computer.
> 
> ...


umm not sure what you mean by "without a computer" but I can schedule shows from my phone with mobile scheduling if that is what you mean. - it is free to any TiVo owner.

TiVo has been careful to avoid messing up shows on a TiVo from another TiVo - so yes, to work shows you have to be on the TiVo where the show is added or deleted. You can push video from a PC to the TiVo though - I think that is a short list.

about the only real thing you have on your list is the keyboard for text entry.

and personally I define core functionality on my TiVo as playing the file I want to play on any TiVo in the house and with my setup I do that with complete realiability all the time. Now added in is netflix and amazon movies as well. My TiVo DVRs can do a boatload more core functionality then when I bought my first 240 model 4 years ago. So again your saying otherwise does not change what is going on with TiVo DVRs in my house.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yeah, with a dismissive "rough around the edges" comment so you could blow off something you knew was ahead of other DVRs.


No... I minimize it because it is not what I consider core functionality, nor is it particularly well done. Fail on both merits. Do you really consider the UI of any of this to be considered well done by today's standards?



> for replay that was a hack and why does it have to be new to series 3 to make your list? A series 2 or 3 can play the movies as I use mpeg2 files.


No... that was my point. What's new within the last 4-5 years. Isn't that the series 2 time frame?



> series 2 and 3 both can and it happened within the last 2 - 3 years. Still waiting to hear what currently for sale or rent DVR can do this


I'm sorry but I lost the context of your quote. Would you please address quotes more in context next time?



> umm not sure what you mean by "without a computer" but I can schedule shows from my phone with mobile scheduling if that is what you mean. - it is free to any TiVo owner.


C'mon; I am talking about the TiVo interface here. Phone, or computer... it's still a web browser. How can I take your comments seriously if you're going to obfuscate them?



> TiVo has been careful to avoid messing up shows on a TiVo from another TiVo - so yes, to work shows you have to be on the TiVo where the show is added or deleted.


Careful, or just not willing to deal with it. Next to MRV, additional tuners to avoid conflicts is the second most important reason many own another TiVo and pay another service fee. So now, to avoid such a conflict with my two TiVos I have to run into the other room, fire up the other TV, and schedule the recording. Do you really feel this is a trivial omission?!



> You can push video from a PC to the TiVo though


 Not without CCI no copy flags.



> and personally I define core functionality on my TiVo as playing the file I want to play on any TiVo in the house and with my setup I do that with complete realiability all the time. Now added in is netflix and amazon movies as well. My TiVo DVRs can do a boatload more core functionality then when I bought my first 240 model 4 years ago. So again your saying otherwise does not change what is going on with TiVo DVRs in my house.


Well, you can define (and dismiss) whatever you want to. I bought 2 DVRs. I use them to record and play TV shows. I rent and buy content on physical media because it is superior to broadcast and downloads. If I am missing something, please tell me what core functionality (granted, by my definition) has been added since the series 2.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Now boys....let's play nice....


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

He raises good points. Cooperative scheduling and single-view management of recordings should be taken for granted with networked Tivos by now. ReplayTV had co-op scheduling years ago. And the text input interface is a pain in the ass, but I don't know how it gets better short of having a mini-keyboard on the remote.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> I'm sorry but I lost the context of your quote. Would you please address quotes more in context next time?


it was actually your context that got lost when I exactly quoted you  Which is the problem here.

It is obvious there have been many good changes in TiVo functionality in the last 4 years I have owned them and all you can cite in rebuttal is a company that is completely out of business. Not much context to your points at all so it is simply the fact that your statements are not the reality of what TiVo has done to innovate.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

slowbiscuit said:


> the text input interface is a pain in the ass, but I don't know how it gets better short of having a mini-keyboard on the remote.


It can get better simply by allowing "cell phone" type data entry...

2=a
22=b
222=c
2222=2

Write now 2 enters a number. How often do you want to enter a bunch of numbers in a search?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

IMO that's not better, just different. But I'm not a cell phone texter so I don't need to remember all the letter/number combos.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

slowbiscuit said:


> IMO that's not better, just different. But I'm not a cell phone texter so I don't need to remember all the letter/number combos.


How is it not better? Let's say you want to enter "House". Currently with TiVo that is 24 key presses. Numerically it would be 13. Plus you don't have to mess with watching the cursor move around a grid.

Printing the letters on the remote is also trivial (although my Harmony remote already has them).


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

solutionsetc said:


> How is it not better? Let's say you want to enter "House". Currently with TiVo that is 24 key presses. Numerically it would be 13. Plus you don't have to mess with watching the cursor move around a grid.
> 
> Printing the letters on the remote is also trivial (although my Harmony remote already has them).


Having it do T9-style predictive input based on the contents of the current database being searched would of course be even better. Then "House" would only be 5 keypresses. 

And the on-screen legend could contain the letters for remotes that don't have them.

As I've mentioned before though, the current search implementation in TiVo Search has taken care of much of this when it comes to search at least. It shows results not alphabetically, but using some other algorithm seemingly based on popularity. Never had any problems finding almost right away what I am looking for without having to enter more than just a few letters.

But that doesn't help for other entries though, such as YouTube or music.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

MickeS said:


> Having it do T9-style predictive input based on the contents of the current database being searched would of course be even better. Then "House" would only be 5 keypresses.
> 
> And the on-screen legend could contain the letters for remotes that don't have them.


Well done. Seems to me there is already code to do a lookup on indexed fields on the input from each char, but it seems there are other results weighting than strictly alpha numeric, so it would be a little trickier than just counting keystrokes. At this point, I would be happy with just counting the keystrokes.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Not much context to your points at all so it is simply the fact that your statements are not the reality of what TiVo has done to innovate.


And you seem to have no points. At least none regarding how TiVo has made the recording and playback of shows better over the years. Yes they have added Netflix, Amazon, podcasts, etc... but that all seems much too much like adding a better radio to a car that still has poor handling & lousy gas mileage.

Again, what innovations and interface enhancements have been implemented to TiVo since the series two with respect to scheduling, recording and playing shows? So far I have...

1.) the ability to choose to clip the start/end of shows with conflicting start/end times.

2.) TiVo Search... which I have already praised (but amazed they didn't allow for more efficient text entry while they were at it).

Now I don't know what you do for a living, but if I managed a team in charge of a functional interface for networked, computer based systems over the last 5 years and this is all they were able to come up with I'd be looking for a new team.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> And you seem to have no points. At least none regarding how TiVo has made the recording and playback of shows better over the years. Yes they have added Netflix, Amazon, podcasts, etc... but that all seems much too much like adding a better radio to a car that still has poor handling & lousy gas mileage.


not really - TiVo had great season passes and season pass management from day one. Also it could record and palyback at the same time with no hassle - many early DVRs could not do that nor remember where in the show you left off playing etc..
How you think TiVo had poor handling and never improved it is beyond me. Now they could improve the text input but that was a business solution to focus on converged media versus the interface. Given the rise of Amazon downloads and netflix streaming on other devices like Roku and game consoles - I think TiVo was looking at the right road map to focus their efforts there. They could have the prettiest interface in the world but if all I could still do was record cable TV with my TiVo then I might as well get a cable company DVR and deal with the fact it records all 5 showings of the firsr run Law & Order episodes.

Oh and you forget that wishlists was considerably beefed up to include logical operators so you can get very specific in what a wishlist does. I use that for movies and sports to great effect.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo had great season passes and season pass management from day one.


Agreed.



> Also it could record and palyback at the same time with no hassle - many early DVRs could not do that nor remember where in the show you left off playing etc.


Never had a DVR that could not do this.



> How you think TiVo had poor handling and never improved it is beyond me... you forget that wishlists was considerably beefed up to include logical operators


I didn't forget... up 'till now I had no idea when it was implemented (but not for a lack of asking). It is a very useful addition and I will add it to my list (now there are three core improvements in the past 5 years I am aware of).



> Now they could improve the text input but that was a business solution to focus on converged media versus the interface.


Why does one have to displace the other? Especially when in this case it would take less than 50 lines of code to implement?



> Given the rise of Amazon downloads and netflix streaming on other devices like Roku and game consoles - I think TiVo was looking at the right road map to focus their efforts there. They could have the prettiest interface in the world but if all I could still do was record cable TV with my TiVo then I might as well get a cable company DVR and deal with the fact it records all 5 showings of the firsr run Law & Order episodes.


I don't think you're being totally honest here as I am willing to bet that you chose TiVo well before these features came along. I just recently moved to TiVo HD for the same reasons you originally did... DVR functionality (especially MRV - but disappointed to see that, after all this time, it is still so badly crippled).

In any event my friend, we'll have to agree to disagree. There is little point in continuing this discussion given the two very different assessments we have on the state of development for TiVo over the last 5 years. I am still interested in knowing just what was added when (the OR/NAND operatives in the wishlists for instance), so if you or anyone else would/could sum that up it would be great. It is a shame TiVo does not offer such a "version history" type of document, though maybe the reason for its absence is that it is not all that compelling of a list. 

I'm sure we'll talk again.

Best regards,

-ss


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

According to wikipedia, the Series 3 didn't go on sale until Sept. 2006, so it's a lot less than 5 years old. Also, S2 TiVos continue(d) to get updates(although these are becoming less interesting with every update).

Besides the mentioned wishlists, TiVo Search, and over-lap protection, the guide speed has been boosted within that 5-year timeframe (more than once I think). The visual styling of the guide and other widgets that appear while in a playback screen was revamped(adding a subtle reflection, which I for one find more attractive) The ToGo and GoBack functions all happened within the last five years(some people consider that core-dvr functionality, some don't, if you disagree, I won't argue). KidZone(TiVo's "Kid Friendly" area) was a major interface addition also added in 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivo#TiVo_Functions

Keep in mind that TiVo Search is still in beta(and based on screenshots leaked from a survey, they appear to be using it as a testbed not just for the search tech but also the interface itself).
http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/29/potential-new-tivo-user-interface-shown-on-video/

They've been publicly quoted as saying they are looking at new text entry methods: 
http://gizmodo.com/5017972/story-of-a-peanut-the-tivo-remotes-untold-past-present-and-future

Keep in mind, also, TiVo is a tiny company, with < 500 employees, many of whom are obviously not engineers.
http://www37.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tivo


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

solutionsetc said:


> I didn't forget... up 'till now I had no idea when it was implemented (but not for a lack of asking). It is a very useful addition and I will add it to my list (now there are three core improvements in the past 5 years I am aware of).


Come now, you admit you have no idea what you're talking about, or the history of TiVo, yet insist that TiVo has not done enough? That's pure troll behavior, not an honest assessment.

Other things they've added in the past 5 years, off the top of my head:

1. Alternate guide interface (I think that fits the time period).
2. Skipping ahead a day at a time in TiVo guide
3. 30 second skip lasts over reboot.
4. Improved kickstart procedures/interface that don't involve pulling the plug.
5. skip-to-tick skips to end/start of long menus
6. Multiple wish-list category enhancements
7. improved system info screen
8. DVR diagnostic interface has gone through several rounds of improvement
9. Network diagnostics have gone through several rounds of improvements with several screens added.
10. Entire trouble shooting menu.
11. Swivel search (predecessor to Beta Search) is new in the past 2-3 years.
12. Menus involving network viewing have changed (video on demand, etc).
13. TiVo desktop has become much more useful (still needs bug fixes and improvements).
14. Closed captioning has become much easier with many more options (several iterations; I think they've mostly got it usable now)
15. More options for front display, includes turning off all lights.
16. Extension prompting of live recordings
17. Interface to adding extension disk has changed (and didn't exist before that).
18. Can supposedly interface with more universal controls (I have no idea myself whether this is useful).
19. Interface to tuning adapters added.

I'm sure there are more that other people can add.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> In any event my friend, we'll have to agree to disagree. There is little point in continuing this discussion given the two very different assessments we have on the state of development for TiVo over the last 5 years.


Fair enough - we have both stated our opinions more than enough for anyone else reading along and others seem to have their hands raised to state their replies. 

PS - I bought my first DVR as a TiVo becasue I was on analog cable and TWC would have me go to digital tier back then to get a DVR - that would have been 35$ extra a month at that point. A Series 2 240 model with lifetime was simply a better deal long term. TiVo had more market share than Replay TV and also had a viable hacking community to let me pull shows off or enlarge the ahrd drive. TiVo obliged me however by adding in HMO and TiVoToGo and also including the same in the regular sub price and save me from having to set it up myself. It was *added value that continued well after the initial purchase* that made me choose and then continue with TiVo DVRs.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

my top 4 dream list of changes to the tv recording and playback functions....

1) some ability, any ability, to schedule using the UI on one tivo on another. At a minimum with tivosearch it would seem almost trivial to be able to work on the second box. If you have conflicts on the local box- let me know if my other boxes have a free tuner- at least for one time recordings. My dream would be to have an option like the hackers developed years and years back where the box notices it has a conflict shortly before the recording is to start and polls networked tivos for a free tuner (that i understand might have unintended consequences for people with small drives- so i'm more patient there- but why doesn't tivosearch allow us to set up at least one time recordings on the other box?). 
2) Also Delete on the other box should be allowed- even if it's only as part of a MRV move (at least allow me to delete stuff on the other box once the transfer is done when i MRV it to a new box). It's just a silly hassle to have to MRV something up to the bedroom from the living room where I watch and delete it, then I have to remember next time I go downstairs to delete it from the living room too. Aren't a sizable number of people going to be "done" with the show after then mrv and watch it someplace else? Besides copy give the option of move to MRV. *Do it right and you could even fix the whole CCI flag dilemma*- the cablelabs license terms appear to me to permit moves as long as the recording is only allowed to be visible on ONE box at a time.

3) hidden padding- the MS ultimate tv (was that the name?) on directv apparently added 5 minutes to the end of everything whenever it could. Could be a patent issue- that MS owns this?

4)- overlap padding. If you record from 8:00 to 8:30 and then again from 8:30 to 9:00 on the same channel. Would it be possible to use the 8:30-8:35 bit on both recordings so that you don't have to jump to the second show to watch the last minute when the networks screw things up? And so if you have an important show that you manual add padding so it puts back the missing 5 minutes of a clipped show on the same channel.(not sure if that's realistic with the hardware involved? but I'd like it)

I'd have to think about it but to be honest now that they fixed the CC toggle that's about the only things I really think are missing.

There is something of a need to work on new text entry, but I'm not sure T9 or multi-tap text style is the way to go. I'm not all that old and it would totally be useless to me and my wife. we'd love a wireless USB keyboard option- but then I realize many dont want a big old keyboard in the living room. Another idea would be a cell phone app so people could use their pda keyboards or sms entry preference to do something like the telnet iphone thing does- but again limited use. So I can see why they prefer to spend the time to do something that is helpful to everyone. But lets get that going. Maybe it's the method in tivo search actually.... And I'm not sure that's a huge issue anyway for TV recording. Sure some are adding stuff all the time, but wouldn't many people be just setting up season passes or wishlists and letting them do their thing with just an occasional new pass/wishlist or one time recording? It becomes more of an issue for all the new web content features like searching for VOD.

Oh and my DREAM DREAM would be that they work out real time guide data changes- but that's a huge undertaking. In a perfect world they would get the networks to use embedded markers like the "press now for more info" triggers. So for example when american idol or an awards show runs long or a sporting even runs into overtime or extra innings , the network can send out a ping "hey don't change the channel I'm still going". Years back pony or maybe even bullwinkle wrote they had dreams of that too and had some basics laid down for the day if it ever came about....


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

How come a currently available simple cheap DVD recorder with no EPG and a known defect (with a workaround) plus various idiosyncracies can provide normal pitched audio at 1.3X FF from recordings on its HDD while no DVR yet released can? 

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10104532

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940657

http://www.funai-corp.com/6pdf/om/H2160MW9A.pdf
(described on page 73 of 256)


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

fallingwater said:


> How come a currently available simple cheap DVD recorder with no EPG and a known defect (with a workaround) plus various idiosyncracies can provide normal pitched audio at 1.3X FF from recordings on its HDD while no DVR yet released can?
> 
> http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10104532
> 
> ...


Buy one and tell us how great it is.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> 1) some ability, any ability, to schedule using the UI on one tivo on another. At a minimum with tivosearch it would seem almost trivial to be able to work on the second box. If you have conflicts on the local box- let me know if my other boxes have a free tuner- at least for one time recordings. My dream would be to have an option like the hackers developed years and years back where the box notices it has a conflict shortly before the recording is to start and polls networked tivos for a free tuner (that i understand might have unintended consequences for people with small drives- so i'm more patient there- but why doesn't tivosearch allow us to set up at least one time recordings on the other box?).
> 2) Also Delete on the other box should be allowed- even if it's only as part of a MRV move (at least allow me to delete stuff on the other box once the transfer is done when i MRV it to a new box). It's just a silly hassle to have to MRV something up to the bedroom from the living room where I watch and delete it, then I have to remember next time I go downstairs to delete it from the living room too. Aren't a sizable number of people going to be "done" with the show after then mrv and watch it someplace else? Besides copy give the option of move to MRV. *Do it right and you could even fix the whole CCI flag dilemma*- the cablelabs license terms appear to me to permit moves as long as the recording is only allowed to be visible on ONE box at a time.


These are definitely MUSTS for me.



MichaelK said:


> Oh and my DREAM DREAM would be that they work out real time guide data changes- but that's a huge undertaking. In a perfect world they would get the networks to use embedded markers like the "press now for more info" triggers. So for example when american idol or an awards show runs long or a sporting even runs into overtime or extra innings , the network can send out a ping "hey don't change the channel I'm still going". Years back pony or maybe even bullwinkle wrote they had dreams of that too and had some basics laid down for the day if it ever came about....


I think this is definitely doable, only problem is getting the networks to implement it and be consistent.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

steve614 said:


> ...
> 
> I think this is definitely doable, only problem is getting the networks to implement it and be consistent.


I think that was the problem that pony or bullwinkle pointed out when they spoke of it. Basically that they were ready to implement such a thing on their end but you would have to get the networks to buy in.

at some point maybe their can be a standard way that all DVR's could be notified. The networks seem not to dislike DVR's anymore.

Another way to do it would be for MLB, NFL, etc to do it. having one person watch 15 games a day and injecting the trigger is no big deal. I think MLB even has a group that watches all the games on game days just in case they need to do homerun replays. Those guys could send a "game over" signal when each of the games is over.


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## DjMikeWatt (Apr 16, 2008)

As far as the ads that appear when you pause, I really don't understand the whining here. I mean, as far as places to put ads go, this it at the TOP of my list. I'm pausing because I'm NOT watching, right?? I mean, I don't pause to stare at the screen... I need to hit the bathroom - I pause and go to the bathroom... why does it matter if a small "Find out more about..." note pops up when I do that? I really think that people are just way too whiny... WAY too whiny.

On a side-note, I always thought it would be cool if you could chain two TiVos together as a Master/Slave. That way, you'd still really only have "one" TiVo, but the Master could use the extra tuners and hard drive on the slave to allow you to record up to 4 things at once. Just a thought... that would make TiVo REALLY stand out above any of its competition.


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## Karmavore (Nov 20, 2006)

While I grant that OP comes off a bit whiny, I second (Third? 40,000th?) the sentiment. I perceive the avoidance of intrusive ads as one of the primary benefits of my TiVo. To replace one kind of ad for another reduces my perceived value considerably. To be sure, I'm a 7-year TiVo vet and I'm not going anywhere, but I hope the pause ads are the end of the trend and not an ominous new escalation.

I also use pause because I want to see if the guy's foot is on the line, I want to read what the tiny newspaper clipping in Lost says, or because I'm checking out Vanessa Rousso. TiVo used to be better at this than it is now. I'm getting less service for my money than I used to.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

DjMikeWatt said:


> As far as the ads that appear when you pause, I really don't understand the whining here. I mean, as far as places to put ads go, this it at the TOP of my list. I'm pausing because I'm NOT watching, right?? I mean, I don't pause to stare at the screen....


+1


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Karmavore said:


> I also use pause because I want to see if the guy's foot is on the line, I want to read what the tiny newspaper clipping in Lost says, or because I'm checking out Vanessa Rousso. TiVo used to be better at this than it is now.


How did you see all that stuff with the progress bar in the way?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> How did you see all that stuff with the progress bar in the way?


by hitting the clear button.. the same way it works now with the added ads :up:


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

donnoh said:


> Buy (a Funai Maggy) and tell us how great it is.


I did and it's OK, even with its known shortcoming. Normal pitched audio at 1.3X FF (coupled with a 6 hour rolling recording buffer, any part of which can be edited and turned into a DVD) is useful.

I've got an old Panny DMR-E85H which does audio at 1.3X FF, but when new it cost more. The Funai Maggy is a "simple DVDR, like a VCR on steroids, but (it's) perfect for me and Joe the Plumber! "
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12244086#post12244086


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## Detonate (May 17, 2009)

I had Tivo a long time with DirecTV and fell in love.

Then DirecTV did me wrong by dropping Tivo and I was stuck with the DirecTV DVR for past year or so....

But finally I just got two Tivo HD's and Verizon FIOS.

And what do I find?
My Tivo constantly reboots and I'm on my 2nd defective unit for the bedroom.
Ads everywhere.
Channels are pixelated and dropping out, even with a 100% signal, and audio drops.

What the hell happened to Tivo????


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Detonate said:


> But finally I just got two Tivo HD's and Verizon FIOS.
> 
> And what do I find?
> My Tivo constantly reboots and I'm on my 2nd defective unit for the bedroom.
> ...


Did you see the _Known Issues_ section in my signature?

The _Using TiVo_ section also tells you how to eliminate the pause ads.


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## net114 (Dec 29, 2000)

Well, I think I've read through all the posts, and I don't think the main problem is with the ads - I think the main problem is that this is not how a subscription business model has so far been used. 

For example, people subscribe to HBO, and there are no commercials in the middle of the shows. They feel pay = no commercials/ads. 

Many on this forum have said before that Tivo's PR really sucks. Why can't they get the word out about how much better they are? Why do some people call their cable DVR "Tivo" and have no idea that its not one? AND....

part of PR is also communicating to your current customers. How about a CEO statement directly addressing these type of ads? Just tell everyone - "we need to make more money to survive" or whatever. Or, let people pay a few extra dollars to avoid the ads. 

I find them annoying, but not as annoying as getting thrown out of my show during the emergency broadcast crap. Still, I'd like a polite message downloaded to my menu (which is obviously very possible based on the situation!!) telling me why as a subscriber I'm seeing ads. I know it may seem obvious, but sometimes that's all it takes. 

Again, people have gotten used to subscription = no commercials. Tivo needs to communicate and tell its base why that's not the model they're using.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

net114 said:


> For example, people subscribe to HBO, and there are no commercials in the middle of the shows. They feel pay = no commercials/ads.


On the other hand, every magazine you can subscribe to is laden with adds, some of which give off scents. So subscription costs + ad revenue is nothing new.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

net114 said:


> I'd like a polite message downloaded to my menu (which is obviously very possible based on the situation!!) telling me why as a subscriber I'm seeing ads. I know it may seem obvious, but sometimes that's all it takes.
> 
> Again, people have gotten used to subscription = no commercials. Tivo needs to communicate and tell its base why that's not the model they're using.


Why now? The TiVo CEOs have said publicly there are, and will be, ads literally hundreds of times in the past 12 years. TiVo has had ads for over 8 years now; it should be very obvious that ads are part of the TiVo business model. A message now seems pointless; it's not telling us anything that isn't very obvious to any TiVo owner.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

CrispyCritter said:


> Why now? The TiVo CEOs have said publicly there are, and will be, ads literally hundreds of times in the past 12 years.


TiVo went public at the end of 1999. Could not possibly be more than 9.5 years. And indeed, TiVo mentioned advertisement revenue in IPO. But let me ask you, do you always read IPO documents before you buy CE gadget?
Do you always search web for CEO statements before you buy anything?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

samo said:


> TiVo went public at the end of 1999. Could not possibly be more than 9.5 years. And indeed, TiVo mentioned advertisement revenue in IPO. But let me ask you, do you always read IPO documents before you buy CE gadget?
> Do you always search web for CEO statements before you buy anything?


A better question is does anyone EVER search the web for CEO statements before they buy something?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> A better question is does anyone EVER search the web for CEO statements before they buy something?


Sure: stock


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

net114 said:


> For example, people subscribe to HBO, and there are no commercials in the middle of the shows. They feel pay = no commercials/ads.


And people pay for different cable tiers, all have channels that are packed with commercials.

Subscriptions along with ad-revenue is not a new business model.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Detonate said:


> I had Tivo a long time with DirecTV and fell in love.
> 
> Then DirecTV did me wrong by dropping Tivo and I was stuck with the DirecTV DVR for past year or so....
> 
> ...


not sure if the known issues link specifially talks about it- but there's an issue specific to fios that the signal is too hot and needs to be adjusted. Verizon is aware and will send you what you need if you ask. Search some on these boards and you will find all the info you need.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

net114 said:


> Well, I think I've read through all the posts, and I don't think the main problem is with the ads - I think the main problem is that this is not how a subscription business model has so far been used.
> 
> For example, people subscribe to HBO, and there are no commercials in the middle of the shows. They feel pay = no commercials/ads.
> 
> ...


i get what you are saying about subscriptions but basically it only holds true for the cable movie channels. you pay for all the other channels on cable and they all have ads. Even the movie channels load up the extra space between movies with ads for their own channel.

as above magazines and newspapers are the same.

Satellite radio you pay for and some of those channels have ads.

and on and on.

But i get your point that people equate it to HBO. It's a perception thing.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

samo said:


> TiVo went public at the end of 1999. Could not possibly be more than 9.5 years. And indeed, TiVo mentioned advertisement revenue in IPO. But let me ask you, do you always read IPO documents before you buy CE gadget?
> Do you always search web for CEO statements before you buy anything?


so maybe the ceo didn't make a statement or no one read it- but tivo has been using ads in the UI for like 8 years now. Hec since before that the I posted a link earlier about a ***** fest about ads as earlyu as 2001 if my memory serves...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> TiVo went public at the end of 1999. Could not possibly be more than 9.5 years. And indeed, TiVo mentioned advertisement revenue in IPO. But let me ask you, do you always read IPO documents before you buy CE gadget?
> Do you always search web for CEO statements before you buy anything?


shhh! ads are a big secret on the TiVo interface - these are not the ads you are looking for.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

MichaelK said:


> so maybe the ceo didn't make a statement or no one read it- but tivo has been using ads in the UI for like 8 years now. Hec since before that the I posted a link earlier about a ***** fest about ads as earlyu as 2001 if my memory serves...


2001 was "Yellow star of shame" ***** fest. Some people even said at a time that it was slippery slope.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

If you think you can put out a better DVR, then please do so. Many of us appreciate how the investors in TiVo has essentially subsidized our entertainment over the last decade, so we'd be more than happy to have someone else do so going forward.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

bicker said:


> Many of us appreciate how the investors in TiVo has essentially subsidized our entertainment over the last decade, so we'd be more than happy to have someone else do so going forward.


Love it! To date, nobody summarized TiVo business model better than you did in one sentence!
Sadly, it is not just TiVo or dot.coms that use these business models and the rest of us just love free or cheap stuff we get as a result. Nothing down mortgages, 12 month no interest credit card transfers and a free cheese in a mousetrap come to mind.


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