# How will Tivo Series 2 sets be able to tune the upcoming DTV Broadcast Converters?



## 056557

I'm not sure how many of us there are out there, but I use my rooftop antennae to obtain TV. It has dawned on me that my two TiVo Series 2 boxes will become obsolete on Feb 17, 2009, unless someone comes up with a method of interfacing the Series 2 sets with the upcoming DTV Broadcast Converter boxes.

Here's the dilemma as I understand it. In order for the Series 2 to work, it must manage the tuning of the channels. However the new DTV converters will have their own tuners.

1. Am I correct that if the Series 2 can't tune the channel, it will simply not work?

2. Is there even a physical method resident in the Series 2 to operate an external tuner in a device like the proposed DTV Converter boxes? Can you connect a cable between them? Infrared? I don't think so.

3. Will there be a version of the DTV Converter boxes that converts the new Digital-Over-the-Air (OTA) signals to something that looks to the Series 2 like a cable TV signal? If so, then it seems that all I'd need to do is connect the DTV box, then change my receive-signal type in the Series 2 from antennae to cable. That sounds perfect!

4. Is there any other solution? I really want to keep both my Series 2 sets (one of which is a lifetimer), and my current televisions, without having to subscribe to a commercial service, or replace my TiVos and TVs!

I'm sure hoping that TiVo steps up to this to make sure that those of us in this situation are not left in the dust. TiVo needs to ensure that there is a Series 2 solution that works with at least some (and preferably all) of the DTV Converter boxes that will be offered beginning in 2008.

Thanks.


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## scandia101

The converter boxes will work in exactly the same way that cable boxes have worked with Tivo since the very first tivo was introduced, provided that Tivo will update the software with the necessary information. At this point there is no reason to think that Tivo won't provide the update.


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## Adam1115

scandia101 said:


> The converter boxes will work in exactly the same way that cable boxes have worked with Tivo since the very first tivo was introduced, provided that Tivo will update the software with the necessary information. At this point there is no reason to think that Tivo won't provide the update.


No reason? OTA ATSC boxes have been out for years and no Series 2's support them.

What makes you think they will change that?

Personally I think you are SOL with tuning OTA on a series two, even with a converter. You'll have to use cable or a TiVo HD.


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## dswallow

Considering the TiVoHD unit is only $250 now, and the big switch-off date is still over a year away, I wouldn't be too worried about it yet. Worst case you'll probably find a TiVoHD unit available for little above the cost of a plain vanilla ATSC receiver by then.


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## Adam1115

dswallow said:


> Considering the TiVoHD unit is only $250 now, and the big switch-off date is still over a year away, I wouldn't be too worried about it yet. Worst case you'll probably find a TiVoHD unit available for little above the cost of a plain vanilla ATSC receiver by then.


It's not a good solution. The TiVo HD can tune ATSC, sure, but it can't control a receiver. So now you're stuck with a series 2 to control a receiver and a tivo HD to control your OTA.

This is problematic. There are areas that the DBS companies don't provide LIL, or are missing stations, or block stations that you can receive OTA because of DMA issues.

For awhile I had dish network to receive premium stations. Works awesome with my Series 2, ota + dish. S3 it is worthless.


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## dswallow

Adam1115 said:


> It's not a good solution. The TiVo HD can tune ATSC, sure, but it can't control a receiver. So now you're stuck with a series 2 to control a receiver and a tivo HD to control your OTA.


It's still a workable solution; keep one or both Series 2 units around for any non-OTA non-Cable content required.

Anyway, still... it's over a year away. It's not like there isn't plenty of time to see what new things may come out before then.


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## lessd

Adam1115 said:


> No reason? OTA ATSC boxes have been out for years and no Series 2's support them.
> 
> What makes you think they will change that?
> 
> Personally I think you are SOL with tuning OTA on a series two, even with a converter. You'll have to use cable or a TiVo HD.


Why would TiVo want to support something that not needed now for any Series 2. When the new Government subsidized converter boxes are introduced I think TiVo will support that one box. We are all giving you a guess as only TiVo knows how many Series 2/1 units are used for OTA now and if it would worth their effort to do the software to run the new converter boxes.


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## Adam1115

dswallow said:


> It's still a workable solution; keep one or both Series 2 units around for any non-OTA non-Cable content required.
> 
> Anyway, still... it's over a year away. It's not like there isn't plenty of time to see what new things may come out before then.


Sure, if you don't mind spend $19.90 or more a month to replace your $12.95/mo tivo...



lessd said:


> Why would TiVo want to support something that not needed now for any Series 2. When the new Government subsidized converter boxes are introduced I think TiVo will support that one box. We are all giving you a guess as only TiVo knows how many Series 2/1 units are used for OTA now and if it would worth their effort to do the software to run the new converter boxes.


Not needed by you, like I said ATSC boxes have been out for years. Because our DTV is broadcast from a different location as analog, I would have to have a rotor to watch analog OTA on my series 2 and switch it back to watch digital on my S3.

It isn't some crazy software development to support them. It's an IR code and a menu option. The series 2 already supports some of them if you use work arounds like pretending it's a satellite receiver. There isn't any reason they aren't supporting them except they have chosen not to. Tha's fine, but it indicates (to me) their attitude about supporting OTA in general on the S2.


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## magnus

*For OTA:*
An old Voom (activated) box will work with that S2 box now. Do a search on this forum for Voom and you'll find more information about that. You can probably find one of those boxes on craigslist or ebay for under $50. The gist of it is to set it up as a Motorola set top box and say that you have Dish or Directv service.

*For Satellite:*
Your box should work with Dish or Directv just fine. So, that's another option. I use Dish Now (Prepaid service) during the times when I feel that there is content worth watching.

*For Cable:*
You can use analog cable until the cable companies shut it off. I hear that TWC will shut it off in 2009 or 2010.



> 4. Is there any other solution? I really want to keep both my Series 2 sets (one of which is a lifetimer), and my current televisions, without having to subscribe to a commercial service, or replace my TiVos and TVs!


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## dswallow

Adam1115 said:


> Sure, if you don't mind spend $19.90 or more a month to replace your $12.95/mo tivo...


If you read the OP, it's a lifetime unit and a monthly unit now. One Series 2 could be replaced and no net monthly cost change would occur; they'd have two tuners available for OTA, just like they do now. And they'd even have a third tuner available for other things if there were any such sources like satellite to be tuned, or it could just be used to via SD programming remotely from the TiVoHD.


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## RonDawg

Adam1115 said:


> Not needed by you, like I said ATSC boxes have been out for years. Because our DTV is broadcast from a different location as analog, I would have to have a rotor to watch analog OTA on my series 2 and switch it back to watch digital on my S3.
> 
> It isn't some crazy software development to support them. It's an IR code and a menu option. The series 2 already supports some of them if you use work arounds like pretending it's a satellite receiver. There isn't any reason they aren't supporting them except they have chosen not to. Tha's fine, but it indicates (to me) their attitude about supporting OTA in general on the S2.


I think the big issue is seeing the basic ATSC OTA boxes (the ones that will qualify for the government rebate) actually hit the market. TiVo can't program channel changing codes for a particular item that doesn't yet exist. The ones currently for sale output HD and thus won't qualify for the rebate.

As to why TiVo hasn't provided channel changing codes for the ones that have been on the market for some time, I can't tell you other than perhaps because they do output in HD, there was little point in supporting them when (at the time) TiVo can't capture the output in its full glory.

However, TiVo is running into stiff competition with cable company DVR's, more so if they can't make SDV play nicely with their latest boxes. To intentionally exclude digital OTA customers after the mandatory cutover, when it's just a simple as including a channel changing code, is frankly marketing suicide.


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## magnus

I think that Tivo should at the least say that they are working or will work on such a feature.

It would be nice to know that your S2 Lifetime box will still be useful for OTA.



RonDawg said:


> I think the big issue is seeing the basic ATSC OTA boxes (the ones that will qualify for the government rebate) actually hit the market. TiVo can't program channel changing codes for a particular item that doesn't yet exist. The ones currently for sale output HD and thus won't qualify for the rebate.
> 
> As to why TiVo hasn't provided channel changing codes for the ones that have been on the market for some time, I can't tell you other than perhaps because they do output in HD, there was little point in supporting them when (at the time) TiVo can't capture the output in its full glory.
> 
> However, TiVo is running into stiff competition with cable company DVR's, more so if they can't make SDV play nicely with their latest boxes. To intentionally exclude digital OTA customers after the mandatory cutover, when it's just a simple as including a channel changing code, is frankly marketing suicide.


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## steve614

Adam1115 said:


> It isn't some crazy software development to support them. It's an IR code and a menu option. The series 2 already supports some of them if you use work arounds like pretending it's a satellite receiver. There isn't any reason they aren't supporting them except they have chosen not to. Tha's fine, but it indicates (to me) their attitude about supporting OTA in general on the S2.


I would hope that Tivo is already working with converter box manufacturers. Surely they're going to be gearing up production soon (if not already).



RonDawg said:


> I think the big issue is seeing the basic ATSC OTA boxes (the ones that will qualify for the government rebate) actually hit the market. TiVo can't program channel changing codes for a particular item that doesn't yet exist.


If the manufacturers would release the codes they plan on using, Tivo can get to work.


> As to why TiVo hasn't provided channel changing codes for the ones that have been on the market for some time, I can't tell you other than perhaps because they do output in HD, there was little point in supporting them when (at the time) TiVo can't capture the output in its full glory.


More likely because they haven't _had_ to, until now.


> To intentionally exclude digital OTA customers after the mandatory cutover, when it's just a simple as including a channel changing code, is frankly marketing suicide.


Agree.


magnus said:


> I think that Tivo should at the least say that they are working or will work on such a feature.
> 
> It would be nice to know that your S2 Lifetime box will still be useful for OTA.


Tivo is well known for not being up front with stuff they are working on, IMO.
Hopefully, they won't let us down.


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## classicsat

To answer the OPs questions first:

1: Series 2 currently cannot handle digital OTA guide data, as in the dashed channel format OTA uses.

2: The Series 2 hardware is fully capable of fully using digital OTA tuners. Its limitations today are purely software.

3: Such systems (and I do mean a system, which would amount to an assortment of digital tuners and analog RF modulators) are technically possible, but not entirely within the monetary means of most people that would get the most from them.

4: See if you can upgrade to the existing or possible future ATSC capable TiVos, or switch to a service provider that has 3 simple 3 digit channels Series 2s can now tune.

They could develop the system side of digital receiver support, which should run most units, getting the bugs worked out. Afterwards add IR codes as boxes are available.


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## 1003

*TiVo*
specifically has not supported any standalone OTA converters. USSB was never supported back in the day and Voom is only supported as a basic Motorola sattelite box that happens to include an OTA tuner. The Voom solution on my series1 is not bad, but certainly not as elegant as it could be...


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## billyecho

Due to the data streams broadcast by KCBS and KCET (PBS) in Los Angeles my Voom STB no longer is able to tune to those channels. When attempted the box reboots.


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## BobCamp1

I think there's a 50&#37; chance the digital switchover will be delayed. Very few people are aware of it and things aren't progressing as fast as they need to. You can't just flip the switch overnight. You have to start educating people about the switch a year or two in advance. The converter boxes aren't available in mass quantities yet. The vouchers and the installers for the boxes aren't available. There is doubt that even with the vouchers, the boxes will cost too much or there may not be enough vouchers available. 

It still might all come together, but with a lame duck president and the press focusing on the upcoming elections instead of this issue, I think the public might get blindsided. And then one of the first acts of the new president will be for her  to order the FCC to delay the swithcover date yet again as it discriminates against the poor. 

Therefore, I would just wait six to eight months and see what happens (or doesn't happen) before ditching the S2.


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## CrispyCritter

BobCamp1 said:


> I think there's a 50% chance the digital switchover will be delayed. Very few people are aware of it and things aren't progressing as fast as they need to. You can't just flip the switch overnight. You have to start educating people about the switch a year or two in advance. The converter boxes aren't available in mass quantities yet. The vouchers and the installers for the boxes aren't available. There is doubt that even with the vouchers, the boxes will cost too much or there may not be enough vouchers available.
> 
> It still might all come together, but with a lame duck president and the press focusing on the upcoming elections instead of this issue, I think the public might get blindsided. And then one of the first acts of the new president will be for her  to order the FCC to delay the swithcover date yet again as it discriminates against the poor.
> 
> Therefore, I would just wait six to eight months and see what happens (or doesn't happen) before ditching the S2.


Very little chance of a delay. They're already auctioning off the analog spectrum for billions of dollars; and any delay has serious budget consequences


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## Stormspace

scandia101 said:


> The converter boxes will work in exactly the same way that cable boxes have worked with Tivo since the very first tivo was introduced, provided that Tivo will update the software with the necessary information. At this point there is no reason to think that Tivo won't provide the update.


Really? TiVo still doesn't support my TV or my surround sound. Both are over a year old. I suppose since more ppl will need this they might do something.


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## bicker

CrispyCritter said:


> Very little chance of a delay. They're already auctioning off the analog spectrum for billions of dollars; and any delay has serious budget consequences


Indeed. Congress has effectively swallowed a poison pill now -- they cannot *delay *the switchover without incurring public wrath, *either*, so they might as well just get it over with, so they only incur the public wrath once, instead of twice.


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## Adam1115

BobCamp1 said:


> I think there's a 50% chance the digital switchover will be delayed. Very few people are aware of it and things aren't progressing as fast as they need to. You can't just flip the switch overnight. You have to start educating people about the switch a year or two in advance. The converter boxes aren't available in mass quantities yet. The vouchers and the installers for the boxes aren't available. There is doubt that even with the vouchers, the boxes will cost too much or there may not be enough vouchers available.


I hope you're wrong.

Someone is going to screwed no matter what they do. Flip the switch, poor people lose their TV. They go to wal-mart, buy a box, have $40 towards it, their back in business. (Or more likely, every Taco Bell worker will get a new 50" Big Screen from Rent-a-center lol).

Don't flip the switch? The TV stations are burdened with having to broadcast TWO signals (power, man-power, equipment, etc). Some stations have invested millions in new towers. That's not fair to them that they have to lay out all this cash indefinitely.

But since the TV stations have more pull with Congress than the Taco Bell worker they will probably switch. It's a good thing. DTV is a great improvement on our 60 year old + Television technology.


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## classicsat

Stormspace said:


> Really? TiVo still doesn't support my TV or my surround sound. Both are over a year old. I suppose since more ppl will need this they might do something.


Unless you are misunderstanding something, I don't get what you mean?

A TV that new will have an A/V input for sure, as will your surround sound, although with analog sound from a typical Series 1 or Series 2.

The only possibly "incompatibility" is that the Peanut remote may not have a code for your newer TV or surround amp. Of course, no software update to the TiVo itself will add new remote codes to older remotes, as that is just not possible. The IR Database is only for codes the TiVo uses to control STBs (and may update the reference table for TV and audio codes), which can be updated outside of a software update.


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## RoyK

bicker said:


> Indeed. Congress has effectively swallowed a poison pill now -- they cannot *delay *the switchover without incurring public wrath, *either*, so they might as well just get it over with, so they only incur the public wrath once, instead of twice.


What public wrath? The average person has no idea that a switchover is in the plans and they won't even notice if its delayed. The wrath will be loudly expressed when the switchover is widely publicized in the few weeks just before it occurs.


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## wmcbrine

RoyK said:


> The wrath will be loudly expressed when the switchover is widely publicized in the few weeks just before it occurs.


It seems to me that it's being widely publicized now, although I don't know that the message is sinking in yet. My local stations just recorded an unprecedented joint commercial, with news staff from each station, about the transition, and they're all airing it.


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## RonDawg

wmcbrine said:


> It seems to me that it's being widely publicized now, although I don't know that the message is sinking in yet. My local stations just recorded an unprecedented joint commercial, with news staff from each station, about the transition, and they're all airing it.


IMHO I don't think the FCC and the TV industry are publicizing the upcoming switch nearly as much as they should.

Yes there's the occasional TV ad, but because it's an ad people will do what they have been doing to skip over any other ad, whether it be get up out of the room to do something else, or channel surf, or bypass it using a DVR.

Being the current owner of two Series 2 models myself, I have yet to see anything from TiVo warning me that in a bit over a year my boxes will become useless without cable or some sort of STB.


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## bicker

RoyK said:


> What public wrath?


For starters: Tax increases to cover budget shortfalls stemming from unrealized revenues from the auction.


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## Whittaker

I recorded from a Samsung DTB-H260F external ATSC tuner by way of the RCA input jacks, with the TiVo tuner set to channel zero and a manual record of "showcases", without any problems.

The only downside was the programs would show up in the 'Now Playing List' as the time and date only. I was only recording a few OTA digital programs, so I could easily tell what was what just from the start time and day of the week, but it would be a mess come 2009, if the conversion takes place.

If TiVo would add the digital OTA channels from Zap2It, at least you could pick them out of the grid and they would show up in the 'Now Playing List'.


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## Whittaker

BobCamp1 said:


> I think there's a 50% chance the digital switchover will be delayed. Very few people are aware of it and things aren't progressing as fast as they need to. You can't just flip the switch overnight. You have to start educating people about the switch a year or two in advance. The converter boxes aren't available in mass quantities yet. The vouchers and the installers for the boxes aren't available. There is doubt that even with the vouchers, the boxes will cost too much or there may not be enough vouchers available.


The vouchers are scheduled to be available for application in a little more than a month (Jan 1st), but the vouchers are only supposed to be good for 90 days. Except I don't know of any of the $50 boxes being available yet, so what happens if the vouchers expires before they hit the market ?

It's looking like vaporware for now.


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## bicker

I suspect the the coupons will be issued in concert with the boxes being made available. There is absolutely no sense in offering the boxes until the coupons are available, since ver few people would really want to buy one yet.

I never saw anything about them being $50. I've read that they'll be less than $80.


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## BobCamp1

bicker said:


> I suspect the the coupons will be issued in concert with the boxes being made available. There is absolutely no sense in offering the boxes until the coupons are available, since very few people would really want to buy one yet.
> 
> I never saw anything about them being $50. I've read that they'll be less than $80.


You have to buy certain boxes with the vouchers. You can't just buy any box. I've heard they'll be less than $100 at first, which is a lot of money considering we'll probably be in a recession by then.

There is also a new law pending that will change how the vouchers are distributed. For now it's first come first serve. So do you wait for the price of the box to drop or risk not getting a voucher at all?

Personally, I think a tax rebate with the amount inversely proportional to household income seems the most fair. Tying the voucher to the box is silly. I now get pretty clear analog signals. I don't get ANY watchable digital signals. And I live in a suburb of a city. Does the voucher cover the cost of purchasing and installing a rooftop outdoor antenna and the associated cables? Then just give me some money and I'll subscribe to basic cable or satellite.

As far as already auctioning off something that isn't available, that would be considered a crime if anyone else were doing it except the Government. If they have to delay the switchoff for a year or two, they'll just add the lost income to the federal deficit. It beats getting voted out of office -- remember the elections are just two months before the switchoff.


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## bicker

BobCamp1 said:


> You have to buy certain boxes with the vouchers. You can't just buy any box.


I think I know what you mean: You can only use the vouchers on certain boxes. We're saying the same thing, right?

So anyway, what I was saying is that until the vouchers are available, there isn't much sense selling the boxes, since very few people would buy them at full price, especially knowing that the vouchers are coming.



BobCamp1 said:


> I've heard they'll be less than $100 at first, which is a lot of money considering we'll probably be in a recession by then.


"A lot of money" is relative.



BobCamp1 said:


> There is also a new law pending that will change how the vouchers are distributed. For now it's first come first serve. So do you wait for the price of the box to drop or risk not getting a voucher at all?


Indeed, hard questions each person needs to ask themselves, and then, from that point forward, take personal responsibility for how they decide.



BobCamp1 said:


> Personally, I think a tax rebate with the amount inversely proportional to household income seems the most fair.


"Fair" is subjective. What you describe is sort of like a "progressive credit". Given how unpopular progressive taxes have been in recent years, I doubt progressive credits will be any more popular. Of course, that could change if people really start changing the colors they've worn over the last 25-30 years.



BobCamp1 said:


> Tying the voucher to the box is silly.


Not really. It requires folks to actually purchase the box in order to get the credit. So if they choose some other approach (cable, satellite, or doing without) then don't get a credit.



BobCamp1 said:


> I now get pretty clear analog signals. I don't get ANY watchable digital signals.


Then you are unusual. Also, keep in mind that many digital stations are operating at low-power until February 2009, when they will transfer to the high-power transmitters currently occupied by the corresponding analog channel. Generally, if you get "pretty clear" analog signals now, you will get absolutely fantastic digital signals then.



BobCamp1 said:


> Then just give me some money and I'll subscribe to basic cable or satellite.


No. If you are able to afford cable or satellite, then you don't need our country's help affording it.


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## Stormspace

classicsat said:


> The only possibly "incompatibility" is that the Peanut remote may not have a code for your newer TV or surround amp.


That is exactly the issue. Of course it's always possible that a code does exist and I've been unable to find it. My surround amp isn't even in the database on the Tivo and the codes for my monitor don't work with my S2DT remote.


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## dswallow

Stormspace said:


> That is exactly the issue. Of course it's always possible that a code does exist and I've been unable to find it. My surround amp isn't even in the database on the Tivo and the codes for my monitor don't work with my S2DT remote.


You could just get the TiVo Glo Remote, which is fully programmable rather than just predefined code-based.


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## Stormspace

dswallow said:


> You could just get the TiVo Glo Remote, which is fully programmable rather than just predefined code-based.


Yeah, thats a possibility, but I've already spent $80 on a Harmony remote that has failed after a little more than a year. So far I've been able to reprogram buttons for the options I need, but if those buttons start to fail as well I'll be SOL. I'm still bummin about that and don't want to throw any more money at it.

Since my S2DT was made after my monitor I'd think it would be supported, but I guess not.


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## CrispyCritter

Stormspace said:


> That is exactly the issue. Of course it's always possible that a code does exist and I've been unable to find it. My surround amp isn't even in the database on the Tivo and the codes for my monitor don't work with my S2DT remote.


Have you tried to full search for all codes (takes 10-15 minutes to go through every code on the remote after setting it up for full search). I've forgotten how to get into full search mode, but it should be on the TiVo web site (it's only in some manuals and not others as I recall).


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## MighTiVo

I hope TiVo comes out with a branded external tuner, USB connection for accurate channel changing, Svideo for for the program content.

Or even better, a fully digital product that sends the program content over USB (not really expecting this one)


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## classicsat

MighTiVo said:


> I hope TiVo comes out with a branded external tuner, USB connection for accurate channel changing, Svideo for for the program content.


The best I could hope for is they work with a manufacturer, such as Humax, to make a box that would readily work with a TiVo, likely with a 1/8" serial port set up so a simple 1/8 stereo patch cable will work between the two for serial control


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## MighTiVo

classicsat said:


> The best I could hope for is they work with a manufacturer, such as Humax, to make a box that would readily work with a TiVo, likely with a 1/8" serial port set up so a simple 1/8 stereo patch cable will work between the two for serial control


That would certainly be the easy route that TiVo could take, no software changes, just support a specific IR code database and use the existion serial port.

It would be much nicer if TiVo worked on both sides of the design and supported a more intellegent channel changing design over USB.
With USB, the box could allow manual channel changing when not recording, lock the channel when recording, feedback to assure the channel was correct for the recording, etc.


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## pilotbob

BobCamp1 said:


> I think there's a 50% chance the digital switchover will be delayed.


I don't think so. It has already been delayed twice. In October LG's box was approved for the voucher program. The 700MHZ spectrum auction is going to be held in January.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/0...rter-box-approved-for-2008-digital-changeove/

BOb


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## classicsat

They could do that with serial.

The only reason to use USB (which would have to be a client on the STB), is for bandwidth and port availability on the DVR, and the USB would likely mount as a serial class anyways. Such doesn't require much bandwith.

The partner box wouldn't be a replacement for other boxes, just a "guaranteed" route to go.

They would still need to adjust their code for ATSC guide support, and add this serial protocol (if they don't filch the DirecTV one, which is pretty simple).


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## MighTiVo

classicsat said:


> They could do that with serial.
> 
> The only reason to use USB (which would have to be a client on the STB), is for bandwidth and port availability on the DVR, and the USB would likely mount as a serial class anyways. Such doesn't require much bandwith.
> 
> The partner box wouldn't be a replacement for other boxes, just a "guaranteed" route to go.
> 
> They would still need to adjust their code for ATSC guide support, and add this serial protocol (if they don't filch the DirecTV one, which is pretty simple).


I figured trying to repatch the existing serial code which seems to really just be a wired one way path for existing IR commands, to handle true two way communication telling the box to lock channels, letting the box communicate back as to what channel it was on, etc. would be a chore and cause problems with existing serial devices. Starting over with USB to be a robust communication path seemed to be a good choice to me.


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## kb7oeb

Tivo has shown no interest in supporting external ATSC tuners, I'll be surprised if they start now that they sell tivo units with ATSC built in.



lessd said:


> Why would TiVo want to support something that not needed now for any Series 2. *When the new Government subsidized converter boxes are introduced I think TiVo will support that one box.* We are all giving you a guess as only TiVo knows how many Series 2/1 units are used for OTA now and if it would worth their effort to do the software to run the new converter boxes.


There is no such thing, as long as box meets the specs (No HD out, RF channel 3/4 out, etc) it qualifies for use with the coupon.


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## MighTiVo

kb7oeb said:


> Tivo has shown no interest in supporting external ATSC tuners, I'll be surprised if they start now that they sell tivo units with ATSC built in.


I hope that is not the case.
So far external ATSC tuners are still fairly rare, and a bit expensive.
Seems like TiVo could easily sell a branded external tuner and make money while keeping support costs low, like they have with thier own branded wireless receiver.


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## classicsat

TiVo is not in the hardware business, at least a TiVo branded ATSC tuner would not be something they would do, except for being part of a DVR.

TiVo's serial control port is in fact fully bi-directional.

A USB client device would require driver and OS level support (something TiVo doesn't really care to do for 3rd party devices). The serial port is all there, easy and ready to program for.


----------



## kb7oeb

MighTiVo said:


> So far external ATSC tuners are still fairly rare, and a bit expensive.


For HD but for converters with only SD they are getting cheap.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882107049


----------



## TiVo Troll

kb7oeb said:


> ...converters with only SD...are getting cheap.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882107049


That IS cheap!

The issue is moot now, but why was the concept of a relatively cheap standard-def only ATSC/NTSC S2 TiVo pooh-poohed as impractical by Forum posters before S3 was released?

From the description it appears that the RjTECH tuner may also receive unencrypted cable channels, no?


----------



## SMWinnie

classicsat said:


> The best I could hope for is they work with a manufacturer, such as Humax, to make a box that would readily work with a TiVo, likely with a 1/8" serial port set up so a simple 1/8 stereo patch cable will work between the two for serial control


The subsidized boxes (CECBs, or "coupon-eligible converter boxes") have a few limitations (e.g., no DVR capability in the box, no component out).

Interestingly, there's nothing in the rules I've seen that would preclude external control of a CECB. My *guess* is that a TiVo-slaved CECB would have to be controlled by IR and anything with a serial port or USB connection would get dinged by the NTIA.


----------



## gordonzo

check out 
http://dtvanswers.com/
they are running tv commercials now.
any one know about this (http://www.garysargent.co.uk/tivo/stb-unsupported.htm)process??
have lifetime series one and am hoping that they devolop a ir code to work with new boxes.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

TiVo really needs to support the SD-only ATSC tuner boxes intended to hit the market for the digital transition. It would be awfully rude for them to brick all the Series 2 boxes out there that happen to rely on an antenna (ie, no cable service). 

Just let the TiVo control it as it would any ordinary cable box and those Series 2 units will have plenty of usefulness in them on SD televisions. It would simply be a "cable box" that receives only a few channels (the local OTA ones) instead of a normal cable lineup. 

Would they really drop the ball and not do this? Or is the whole business of decimal/hyphenated channels seen on the digital side going to complicate things too much?


----------



## bicker

I suspect part of it depends on the manufacturers of those boxes -- i.e., with respect to whether they conform to standards for controlling those boxes via IR. 

However, do note that there are things that TiVo seemed quite content not updating for S1 subscribers. It could happen.


----------



## Mikeguy

I truly doubt that TIVO would allow the Series 2 machines to become bricks for OTA users. That could even be in violation of FCC or TIVO obligations and requirements. It also would be significant bad press ...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Mikeguy said:


> I truly doubt that TIVO would allow the Series 2 machines to become bricks for OTA users. That could even be in violation of FCC or TIVO obligations and requirements. It also would be significant bad press ...


The TiVo was correctly/legally sold and no digital OTA functionality was expressed or implied. There is no law or regulation currently on the books to require such support and I doubt any such law would be made for hardware sold before the cutoff.

The bad press would be minimal as the machine did not loose functionality but the delivery path was taken down. I also truly wonder how large a percentage of Series 2 is doing OTA. My gut tells me it is a small percentage. I would not hold out hope but start planning how to do OTA come 2009. For myself I already use a TiVo HD for OTA - the clarity of digital OTA is quite compelling.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> The TiVo was correctly/legally sold and no digital OTA functionality was expressed or implied. There is no law or regulation currently on the books to require such support and I doubt any such law would be made for hardware sold before the cutoff.
> 
> The bad press would be minimal as the machine did not loose functionality but the delivery path was taken down. I also truly wonder how large a percentage of Series 2 is doing OTA. My gut tells me it is a small percentage. I would not hold out hope but start planning how to do OTA come 2009. For myself I already use a TiVo HD for OTA - the clarity of digital OTA is quite compelling.


A Series 2 can use an antenna for OTA NTSC broadcasts, or control a cable or satellite box. I don't think it is unreasonable at all to expect it to support these forthcoming OTA digital tuner boxes outputting in standard def. This isn't "digital OTA functionality" per se, but just support for another flavor of separate box.

In terms of the signal coming into a Series 2 from a separate box, the TiVo doesn't care if the programming started out as cable or satellite delivery. It just needs to know how to talk via IR commands to that model of external box to manage channel changes.

Aside from dealing with something like channel "8.1" instead of 8 or 800, I don't see why this would be more complicated than providing for a new series of cable/sat. boxes.


----------



## bicker

Mikeguy said:


> That could even be in violation of FCC or TIVO obligations and requirements.


Uh.... no.



Mikeguy said:


> It also would be significant bad press ...


It depends when it happens. Today, surely. Next year, probably. The year after that, who knows?


----------



## bicker

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> I don't think it is unreasonable at all to expect it to support these forthcoming OTA digital tuner boxes outputting in standard def.


As we've seen time and time again with things like this, what some consumers see as reasonable may or may not be reasonable in the broader sense. If TiVo had meant to establish an expectation in you, as a customer, that the S2 would continue to operate with every tuning device that comes along in the future, then they would have *said* so. They haven't. The most reliable way of setting yourself up for disappointment is imposing expectations on a situation for which there was no foundation for establishing such expectations. The foundation for reasonable expectations on a supplier stem from the explicit promises that supplier makes about the product or service they're offering -- unfortunately, they do not come from our hopes and desires. 

My _guess_ is that TiVo _will _support the new boxes on the S2. However, when (if) they do so, we should be *delighted*, not simply _satisfied_, that they have done so.


----------



## BobCamp1

bicker said:


> I suspect part of it depends on the manufacturers of those boxes -- i.e., with respect to whether they conform to standards for controlling those boxes via IR.
> 
> However, do note that there are things that TiVo seemed quite content not updating for S1 subscribers. It could happen.


No kidding....even something simple like LIFETIME (of the box) guide data, which I paid for, they were more than happy to leave screwed up when the DST dates changed. Tivo has taken the stance where "lifetime" means "useful product lifetime" of the box. One could argue the S1 and S2 are nearing the end of their useful lifetimes.

Luckily, there is an easy workaround. Get cable or satellite, and you don't need the NTSC tuner.

I have an S1. I highly doubt there will be a software update. Next year, I'll have to get locals through DirecTV and spend an extra $3/month. Or get an HR20.


----------



## classicsat

The industry standard, it seems, is to use the dashed sub-channel system for OTA ATSC digital channel changing and guide data.

Either the entire OTA broadcasting and STB industry has to change to a numeric only channel system, or TiVo has to redo their code to accound for the system OTA uses now.
In other words, dealing with guide data for "8.1" and tuning is the exact issue for TiVos software engineers, and whether to expend resources on that issue, is the issue for those higher up to decide if it is an economic or PR benefit..


----------



## dswallow

classicsat said:


> The industry standard, it seems, is to use the dashed sub-channel system for OTA ATSC digital channel changing and guide data.
> 
> Either the entire OTA broadcasting and STB industry has to change to a numeric only channel system, or TiVo has to redo their code to accound for the system OTA uses now.
> In other words, dealing with guide data for "8.1" and tuning is the exact issue for TiVos software engineers, and whether to expend resources on that issue, is the issue for those higher up to decide if it is an economic or PR benefit..


It certainly should be quite easy for TiVo to implement the dash part of channel numbering considering TiVo does it on the Series 3 and TiVo HD units already.


----------



## Mikeguy

If one doesn't think that a class action lawsuit would be filed against TIVO for players no longer allowing OTA customers to receive signals and use their units, along with those who purchased lifetime subscriptions that now are worthless, one is very optimistic.


----------



## dswallow

Mikeguy said:


> If one doesn't think that a class action lawsuit would be filed against TIVO for players no longer allowing OTA customers to receive signals and use their units, along with those who purchased lifetime subscriptions that now are worthless, one is very optimistic.


The lifetime subscription has to end sometime. That's the "defined" lifetime of the receiver. And in the case of receivers used to tune OTA NTSC broadcasts, that "lifetime" is going to be influenced by NTSC broadcasts existing at all. I don't think you'll get anywhere.

And as there's always a shyster lawyer out there will to file a class action lawsuit for any little thing, I doubt the likelihood of a class action suit being filed is any greater than it is at any other time.

Lifetime still has value even on units you don't record from anymore... it allows you to get a discount on service for any additional units you add to your account.


----------



## Adam1115

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> A Series 2 can use an antenna for OTA NTSC broadcasts,


Not new ones.

If you bought a Series 2 this year, it doesn't do OTA at all.


----------



## bicker

Indeed, if there wasn't a class action lawsuit filed wrt to the DST problem with S1s, there is no reason to think that there will be a class action a lawsuit filed wrt to the NTSC problem S2s.

I think, too often, folks feel _their_ grievance is a more of a valid grievance than comparable grievances asserted by others previously. Mystifying.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

BobCamp1 said:


> No kidding....even something simple like LIFETIME (of the box) guide data, which I paid for, they were more than happy to leave screwed up when the DST dates changed. Tivo has taken the stance where "lifetime" means "useful product lifetime" of the box. One could argue the S1 and S2 are nearing the end of their useful lifetimes.


I do not agree with any of that statement. TiVo was not "happy" to leave Si in a DST lurch. They simply had not found a viable way to deal with it on the S1 box. They had nothing and admitted as such. fortunately via the forum they became aware of a method via a hacker with the required working knowledeg of the S1 that they could viably support. TiVo happily spent the time and resources to make that patch available to ensure the S1 box kept the functionality that originally came with the box.

I fully expect my DTs to have a good 5 years of useful life left in my cable market and just yesterday found that I could download Music Videos for free on them. Will more resources be spent on HD and SDV and series 4 projects? I certainly hope so from my point of view but anything that makessense to include on the S2 like new content sources will be added and indeed TiVo itself in the last earning call pointed to the healthy mix of analog cable boxes in overall sales as an important piece of their business model.

Adding in support for OTA receivers that get digital and have an SD output is pretty straightforward so it is not a complexity issue at all. It will simply come down to the number of people doing analog OTA on a series 2 box and projected numbers of people wnating to control a digital OTA on a series 2 box. What will be the return on Investment? Will the press really be bad or will it just be a small group of people making some noise for a bit before they move on? Those are the real questions and Tivo is the only one with the real numbers nad the best guess at the other answers.


----------



## classicsat

Product Lifetime or not, if someone believes that TiVo is shirking some legal or contractual responsibility in not supporting digital OTA tuners on the Series 2 platform, to the point it warrants a lawsuit at least, is a bit naive. 

TiVo has no such responsibility to ensure the Series 2 (or Series 1 platform for that matter) work with digital OTA.


----------



## Adam1115

BobCamp1 said:


> I have an S1. I highly doubt there will be a software update. Next year, I'll have to get locals through DirecTV and spend an extra $3/month. Or get an HR20.


By next year, the HR20 will be completely replaced with the HR21, which doesn't do OTA.

So you'll still have to pay the extra fee for locals.


----------



## BobCamp1

ZeoTiVo said:


> I do not agree with any of that statement. TiVo was not "happy" to leave Si in a DST lurch. They simply had not found a viable way to deal with it on the S1 box. They had nothing and admitted as such.
> ....
> 
> It will simply come down to the number of people doing analog OTA on a series 2 box and projected numbers of people wnating to control a digital OTA on a series 2 box. What will be the return on Investment?


These two points are related. If someone asked Tivo to fix the S1s the right way for $100,000,000, they'd be all over it. They would have found a way. They must have a copy of the S1 source code SOMEWHERE. Even if someone had to spend a few months figuring it out, it's not impossible.

But the the only S1 owners left are lifetime (already paid) and unsubscribed units. The actual amount of additional money Tivo received to fix the problem was $0. So S1 users were blown off. The amount of actual money they received to fix the problem was whatever they got over the years from collecting "lifetime" service for guide data. But this money had already been used for other purposes. I don't think there is an emergency S1 fund.

Then someone who didn't work with the company realized that a quick simple hack could make the problem bearable. How embarassing. Tivo did implement this solution, but it's ugly and you still see users who are having S1 DST problems. It defused the potential lawsuits, using the absolute minimum amount of work on their part.

S2s are different. Lifetime service just refers to guide data, not for the ability to receive the channels. This issue isn't covered under the "lifetime" agreement. Considering the amount of work they did for S1 DST, and the fact that S2DT, S3, and HD don't have this issue, the odds of them adding this feature are less than 10%. But hey, anything's possible.

BTW, I won the office pool for "how long before somebody mentions class-action lawsuit". Thanks to whoever posted that.


----------



## BobCamp1

Adam1115 said:


> By next year, the HR20 will be completely replaced with the HR21, which doesn't do OTA.
> 
> So you'll still have to pay the extra fee for locals.


When DirecTV has the "solution" for OTA HR21, or even if they start offering my locals via satellite, I won't pay extra for the HD local channels. I'll pay $10/month for all HD (including locals) plus the $5 DVR fee, or $3/month for SD locals. Of course, that could change at any time.

Besides, I thought the HR20s were still in production (even though you can't find any). Different topic, different forum....


----------



## Mikeguy

Sorry but, when I got lifetime, I don't recall the customer service rep. telling me that lifetime really only meant 2-3 years of beneficial use for OTA ... And I doubt that the majority of users understood the lack of compatability (or do so yet).


----------



## Adam1115

BobCamp1 said:


> When DirecTV has the "solution" for OTA HR21, or even if they start offering my locals via satellite, I won't pay extra for the HD local channels. I'll pay $10/month for all HD (including locals) plus the $5 DVR fee, or $3/month for SD locals. Of course, that could change at any time.


So you're debating about keeping your Series 1 for the rest of your life vs. a HD-DVR with full HD Programming?


----------



## bicker

Mikeguy said:


> Sorry but, when I got lifetime, I don't recall the customer service rep. telling me that lifetime really only meant 2-3 years of beneficial use for OTA ...


Did you actually read the terms and conditions of what you purchased?

Most folks don't. Folks need to take personal responsibility for their disappointment that stems from not knowing the limitations associated with offers made to them by service providers, limitations that they would have known about if they read the terms and conditions.

There is no specific time-frame mentioned, but there is also no promise WHATSOEVER that every problem that a subscriber wants fixed will be fixed. NONE. Sucks, huh? However, even with such limitation, TiVo is STILL losing money. Imagine that.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

BobCamp1 said:


> These two points are related. If someone asked Tivo to fix the S1s the right way for $100,000,000, they'd be all over it.


yes, it comes down to the money involved at the bottom line of a business decision. Conversely, if TiVo was reporting that it was spending 100,000,000 to support updates to the S1 then most TiVo owners would be upset as it would be decision that would drive the company into the ground and have a bad effect on all TiVo DVRs.

It looks like it would be a reasonable amount of money/resources to implement digital OTA support in S2 as it looks to be fairly straightforward to do. The question becomes how many subs would TiVo expect to loose if the did not spend the resources on adding that support. Bad pres is another consideration but I would think it relates to the number of subscribers involved as well


----------



## poppagene

Adam1115 said:


> Not new ones.
> 
> If you bought a Series 2 this year, it doesn't do OTA at all.


You can still find series 2 single tuner models that do OTA. I bought 4 of them at Radio Shack last month.


----------



## Mikeguy

bicker said:


> Did you actually read the terms and conditions of what you purchased?
> 
> Most folks don't. Folks need to take personal responsibility for their disappointment that stems from not knowing the limitations associated with offers made to them by service providers, limitations that they would have known about if they read the terms and conditions.
> 
> There is no specific time-frame mentioned, but there is also no promise WHATSOEVER that every problem that a subscriber wants fixed will be fixed. NONE. Sucks, huh? However, even with such limitation, TiVo is STILL losing money. Imagine that.


I ordered over the phone and they did not read me any terms and conditions ...


----------



## BobCamp1

Adam1115 said:


> So you're debating about keeping your Series 1 for the rest of your life vs. a HD-DVR with full HD Programming?


Yep. Haven't made the plunge into HD yet. Still using 10-year old, 12-year old, and 6-year old TVs.

If my S1 were to die today, I'd (try to) get an HR20. Then of course, I'd just have to get a matching HD TV.  $$$$$ But that will only work for one TV -- I'd also have to get an H20 for my other NTSC TV. Or maybe I just don't watch network programming on that TV anymore.

If I don't have enough money for that, I'll just get SD locals via DirecTV, and save up to make the HD plunge later. That'll work for two of the TVs.

The third TV just has rabbit ears only, and I'll have to get one of those famous $40 (more like $80) converter boxes for a $60 TV. Just like people want to get an $80 converter box for a $60 S2. But even then, that TV may not get any DTV signals. So I'll have to figure out what to do with that TV.

It's going to cost me a lot of money for me to repeat the same setup I have today.


----------



## minckster

If TiVo's going to do the work to make the SD-only, OTA digital tuners compatible with S2s, I'd generate some revenue to offset the development costs by making the dash key (-) available only from the Glo or TiVo-HD remotes. S2 owners would then have to buy something from TiVo to enter digital channels like 2-1. (Or, I suppose, use a universal remote.)


----------



## bicker

Mikeguy said:


> I ordered over the phone and they did not read me any terms and conditions ...


And you didn't think to ask? 

You can try to wriggle you way out of reasonable expectations on you as a consumer all you want, but you're the only one you're hurting.


----------



## Shawn95GT

minckster said:


> If TiVo's going to do the work to make the SD-only, OTA digital tuners compatible with S2s, I'd generate some revenue to offset the development costs by making the dash key (-) available only from the Glo or TiVo-HD remotes. S2 owners would then have to buy something from TiVo to enter digital channels like 2-1. (Or, I suppose, use a universal remote.)


The (-) key is still there and as far as I know works on the non-glo remote, it just isn't marked.

ATSC support is going to get mangled in the STB support. I would think that 'if' they do eventually support them they'll pick one or a few to support and that's it, much like the esata expansion on the S3 / THD.

The Voom setup works just because the STB acts weird and it happens to compliment what the Tivo needs.

#1 - It's a Motorola box so the Tivo has IR codes for it.

#2 - It doesn't do NTSC at all. Because of this it rounds up to the next closest channel you 'do' get. So if you want to watch 12-1 you tune channel '12' and it goes to 12-1.

#3 - You cannot tune digital sub-channels directly. If you want to watch 12-2, even with the Voom remote you tune channel '12' then channel up. If 12-2 matches what you have guide data for on '12' on the Tivo, you simply hide channel 12-1 and tuning '12' will get you 12-2. This is how I worked around the PBS problem.

#4 - Letterbox or pillar box on the SD output. This was just gravy for me. You can squish the 16:9 HD frame into the 4:3 frame. This looks strange on a 4:3 TV but if you have your 16:9 TV stretch it back out it looks great. If you have a 4:3 TV you can have it display the 4:3 stuff normal and letterbox the 16:9.

Now imagine Tivo has to explain half of that to folks who can't get the IR blaster working....


----------



## Adam1115

BobCamp1 said:


> Yep. Haven't made the plunge into HD yet. Still using 10-year old, 12-year old, and 6-year old TVs.
> 
> If my S1 were to die today, I'd (try to) get an HR20. Then of course, I'd just have to get a matching HD TV.  $$$$$ But that will only work for one TV -- I'd also have to get an H20 for my other NTSC TV. Or maybe I just don't watch network programming on that TV anymore.
> 
> If I don't have enough money for that, I'll just get SD locals via DirecTV, and save up to make the HD plunge later. That'll work for two of the TVs.
> 
> The third TV just has rabbit ears only, and I'll have to get one of those famous $40 (more like $80) converter boxes for a $60 TV. Just like people want to get an $80 converter box for a $60 S2. But even then, that TV may not get any DTV signals. So I'll have to figure out what to do with that TV.
> 
> It's going to cost me a lot of money for me to repeat the same setup I have today.


Seems like your best option is to pay $3/mo? Why buy a converter box for each TV to save $36 a year?

As far as the third tv...

My thing with this converter box scenario is that you can get a BRAND NEW TV with a built in ATSC tuner for under $200.

So it doesn't make much sense to me to pay $80 for a converter and still have a crappy tv...


----------



## minckster

Shawn95GT said:


> Because of this it rounds up to the next closest channel you 'do' get. So if you want to watch 12-1 you tune channel '12' and it goes to 12-1.


 The Series3 already does something similar. If you enter "12*-*" and wait or hit Enter, it will tune to the lowest 12-# channel, usually 12-1. If you enter "12" and wait or hit Enter, it will tune to analog 12.


----------



## BobCamp1

Adam1115 said:


> Seems like your best option is to pay $3/mo? Why buy a converter box for each TV to save $36 a year?


Well, I wouldn't do that for every TV.

My SD locals are on the 72.5 deg. bird. It requires a separate dish. And a slight rewire of my house. And maybe a pole in the middle of my yard. The HD satellites I should be able to get without a pole, but DirecTV doesn't offer my locals in HD yet. If they do in the future, great. But at least the HR20 has a built-in ATSC tuner.

The third TV is hanging under the kitchen cabinet. So it'll take a special kind of TV. I've seen DTV replacements for around for $200. I don't think the $40 voucher will cover that. And reception there isn't good for DTV. So I could rewire DirecTV to include the third TV, but there's no place for a receiver. They sell a DTV with a built-in DirecTV receiver for a cost that doesn't make any sense.

The thing is, this all works perfectly NOW.


----------



## bicker

Things change over time. Our challenge is to adjust and make the best decisions for ourselves *as* things change.


----------



## Shawn95GT

minckster said:


> The Series3 already does something similar. If you enter "12*-*" and wait or hit Enter, it will tune to the lowest 12-# channel, usually 12-1. If you enter "12" and wait or hit Enter, it will tune to analog 12.


Well, if you have a S3 you don't need to worry much about a S2 controlling it .


----------



## Adam1115

BobCamp1 said:


> Well, I wouldn't do that for every TV.
> 
> My SD locals are on the 72.5 deg. bird. It requires a separate dish. And a slight rewire of my house. And maybe a pole in the middle of my yard. The HD satellites I should be able to get without a pole, but DirecTV doesn't offer my locals in HD yet. If they do in the future, great. But at least the HR20 has a built-in ATSC tuner.
> 
> The third TV is hanging under the kitchen cabinet. So it'll take a special kind of TV. I've seen DTV replacements for around for $200. I don't think the $40 voucher will cover that. And reception there isn't good for DTV. So I could rewire DirecTV to include the third TV, but there's no place for a receiver. They sell a DTV with a built-in DirecTV receiver for a cost that doesn't make any sense.
> 
> The thing is, this all works perfectly NOW.


If you can get a cable to it, just get lifeline cable for $12/mo, then you won't need any boxes or receivers or dish's...


----------



## Mikeguy

bicker said:


> And you didn't think to ask?
> 
> You can try to wriggle you way out of reasonable expectations on you as a consumer all you want, but you're the only one you're hurting.


Actually, I'm kinda old-fashioned: when someone sells me their services for a product's lifetime full well knowing that there is a change of standards coming up, that's what I'd like to get, and product support for that change. I'm hoping TIVO supplies it, especially as, per the above, it seems reasonable to provide.


----------



## Budget_HT

Mikeguy said:


> Actually, I'm kinda old-fashioned: when someone sells me their services for a product's lifetime full well knowing that there is a change of standards coming up, that's what I'd like to get, and product support for that change. I'm hoping TIVO supplies it, especially as, per the above, it seems reasonable to provide.


Just curious: Have you read the Lifetime terms and conditions that came with your TiVo, along with the 30-day option to return the unit if you are not satisfied?

Anything ordered by telephone seems to lack "full disclosure" because no one wants to listen to a 10 minute (or whatever) "reading" of the full terms and conditions. Actually, many folks don't bother even for an "in-person" purchase, instead taking the paraphrasing summary words of a salesman at face value.

All of the information from TiVo is available online. So anyone can look over the terms and conditions before committing to a purchase. In 1999, I studied the Lifetime terms and conditions by reading the manual for a display unit in a store. Ultimately I bought Lifetime service, albeit on a DirecTiVo, not a standalone.

Now I have a different "Lifetime" issue, where DirecTV, with their Protection Plan for hardware, will not like-for-like replace any DirecTiVo SD or HD unit. Instead they replace it with their current offering non-TiVo unit. But, they still carry the Lifetime service portion forward, and it applies to all 4 DirecTV DVRs on my account for as long as I maintain an account with them.

This situation is nothing like what I bought into when I purchased my original DirecTiVo and separately purchased Lifetime service from TiVo in late 1999. Some changes have been better for me (e.g., Lifetime DVR service covering every DirecTV DVR on my account) and some have been worse (e.g., replacing a failed DirecTiVo with less desirable and less reliable non-TiVo unit). Through all of this I never had any thought of a lawsuit.


----------



## steve614

Ditto Mikeguy.

Seems it would be easy to add a couple of extra IR codes to the Tivo software to control the upcoming OTA converter boxes.
I'm no expert, so you computer gurus out there correct me if I'm wrong. 
I can't see Tivo _not_ doing this.

Your S2 becomes a brick because it doesn't support a OTA coverter box.
You cancel your subscription because the Tivo doesn't work anymore.
Tivo loses money.

Doesn't Tivo need to _make_ money?


----------



## bicker

Mikeguy said:


> Actually, I'm kinda old-fashioned


Indeed, and could come to regret that as time goes on. With our entertainment choices, it is okay to be old-fashioned; when interacting in the commercial marketplace, it is best to be modern. You'll be better prepared for what you'll encounter that way.



Mikeguy said:


> I'm hoping TIVO supplies it


I hope you're not disappointed. :up:


----------



## bicker

steve614 said:


> I'm no expert, so you computer gurus out there correct me if I'm wrong. I can't see Tivo _not_ doing this.


I think this was mentioned earlier: The same was pretty-much the case with the DST problem for my S1, but TiVo decided not to do anything until someone not associated with TiVo came up with a work-around for them. Since I've also got a lifetime S2, I sure hope they do address this, but I wouldn't count on it.



steve614 said:


> Doesn't Tivo need to _make_ money?


I wonder... they've only made money "once"... they seem to be pretty consistent about not making money.


----------



## Mikeguy

bicker said:


> Indeed, and could come to regret that as time goes on. With our entertainment choices, it is okay to be old-fashioned; when interacting in the commercial marketplace, it is best to be modern. You'll be better prepared for what you'll encounter that way.
> 
> I hope you're not disappointed. :up:


Actually, when I said old-fashioned, I meant that in the sense of standing behind products and services (including those I provide), and hoping that others do the same. You're right, it may be better, at times, to be "modern" and not do so ... My hope always is that a company like TIVO meets its customers' needs, where practical to do so.



And yep, I do read all the disclosures on products that I'm buying ...


----------



## bicker

Mikeguy said:


> Actually, when I said old-fashioned, I meant that in the sense of standing behind products and services


I know exactly what you meant. Do you know what _I_ meant?



Mikeguy said:


> My hope always is that a company like TIVO meets its customers' needs, where practical to do so.


And those last five words make all the difference. These days, practicality, in business, is substantially a matter of maximizing profit.



Mikeguy said:


> And yep, I do read all the disclosures on products that I'm buying ...


And so should we all.


----------



## TiVo Troll

bicker said:


> ...when interacting in the commercial marketplace, it is best to be modern. You'll be better prepared for what you'll encounter that way.



Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's necessarily best. (Check what lurks behind this post!)

IMHO, the digital age offers a great deal of junk just because it was developed on the cheap, using earlier devices for starters. It's easy to deal with such sh*t in a modern old fashioned way; just say no!


----------



## classicsat

steve614 said:


> Ditto Mikeguy.
> 
> Seems it would be easy to add a couple of extra IR codes to the Tivo software to control the upcoming OTA converter boxes.
> I'm no expert, so you computer gurus out there correct me if I'm wrong.
> I can't see Tivo _not_ doing this.


IR codes are the easy parts, relatively.
The hard part is getting the guide data and IR channel changer to work with dashed channels.
As said, they are partway there with the guide data for the HD models.


> Your S2 becomes a brick because it doesn't support a OTA converter box.
> You cancel your subscription because the Tivo doesn't work anymore.
> Tivo loses money.
> 
> Doesn't Tivo need to _make_ money?


They would have to figure what is more important, or what they think may be the larger loss, money to engineer a Series 2 Digital OTA box solution, or the paying customers that would cancel service because their Series 2 has nothing to tune (of which I think many would switch to a TiVoHD).


----------



## bicker

TiVo Troll said:


> IMHO, the digital age offers a great deal of junk just because it was developed on the cheap, using earlier devices for starters. It's easy to deal with such sh*t in a modern old fashioned way; just say no!


Indeed: Do without.


----------



## technomutt

Whittaker said:


> I recorded from a Samsung DTB-H260F external ATSC tuner by way of the RCA input jacks, with the TiVo tuner set to channel zero and a manual record of "showcases", without any problems.
> 
> The only downside was the programs would show up in the 'Now Playing List' as the time and date only. I was only recording a few OTA digital programs, so I could easily tell what was what just from the start time and day of the week, but it would be a mess come 2009, if the conversion takes place.
> 
> If TiVo would add the digital OTA channels from Zap2It, at least you could pick them out of the grid and they would show up in the 'Now Playing List'.


It would be great if Tivo supported the DTB-H260F. It's a great box. It has a switch on the back where you can set it's output as low as 480i, so it is certainly compatible with NTSC TV's and Series 1 and 2 Tivos. I don't know if it will qualify for that whole government rebate thing though.

I've got my fingers crossed, but I won't hold my breath....


----------



## JT-KGY

How about caption?
Guess I'm out of luck with my S2 to receive caption after the switch over..


----------



## wmcbrine

technomutt said:


> It has a switch on the back where you can set it's output as low as 480i, so it is certainly compatible with NTSC TV's and Series 1 and 2 Tivos. I don't know if it will qualify for that whole government rebate thing though.


Nothing with any output _better_ than 480i qualifies for the rebate. Stupid, but true.



JT-KGY said:


> Guess I'm out of luck with my S2 to receive caption after the switch over..


At a minimum, the converter boxes will display the captions themselves, and you can turn the captions on and record them that way (making them open captions). I see no reason in principle why the boxes could not also have the ability to generate an NTSC-style CC signal from ATSC CC, and they well may; but I don't know. (There would be some information lost, since ATSC CC is more sophisticated, but it should be doable.)


----------



## Laserfan

Let's see if I get this right:

Although both S1 and S2 Tivo boxes have analog inputs, and can control sat and cable boxes and thus record from them, there is nothing presently or in the works by Tivo to update the software in these boxes to control Digital (ATSC) Tuners (set-top boxes) post-2009 changeover to DigitalTV. Izzat right?

I have an S1, with Lifetime service even, and while the above does not make me happy  I'll tell ya I'd REALLY be upset if I'd just bought a couple/three of the S2s that are even now being sold by Tivo?

Something's gotta give I think: either Tivo needs to add ATSC STB control capability to older Tivos (the guide data is certainly there--I use it with my S3 OTA), or they are going to need to create one heckuvan attractive trade-in program for people to upgrade to S3s and HDs????

Gotta be a lot of hand-wringing going on at Tivo--doesn't anyone here have some inside info?


----------



## Shawn95GT

I think by 2009 the THD price point will be attractive enough to entice people to go that route rather than try to get a ATSC tuner box to work.

Plus there is the whole matter of not being able to truly record in HD causing some consumer confusion.

If they were going to do it, they should have done it a couple years ago. Doing it going forward is simply too little, too late.


----------



## Adam1115

Laserfan said:


> Although both S1 and S2 Tivo boxes have analog inputs, and can control sat and cable boxes and thus record from them, there is nothing presently or in the works by Tivo to update the software in these boxes to control Digital (ATSC) Tuners (set-top boxes) post-2009 changeover to DigitalTV. Izzat right?


In fairness, there aren't very SD converter boxes on the market yet...


----------



## steve614

I bet Tivo comes out with the "My TiVo ATSC converter box".
It will be the only one they support, cost twice as much, and not be eligible for purchase with the gov. coupons.


----------



## lessd

steve614 said:


> I bet Tivo comes out with the "My TiVo ATSC converter box".
> It will be the only one they support, cost twice as much, and not be eligible for purchase with the gov. coupons.


These converter will be at best be a two year wonder, than not be made anymore. If one mfg makes then with same IR codes as any of the main cable boxes, problem solved for TiVo customers with no intervention from TiVo at all.
Finding your IR blaster may be a problem for some..good for E-Bay sellers.


----------



## Laserfan

Adam1115 said:


> In fairness, there aren't very SD converter boxes on the market yet...


Actually, I already have one, a Hughes HD-HTL which cost >$500 just a few years ago. Then Guess What? DirecTV decided to change their technology, and of course Tivo continues not to support its ATSC capability.

Tivo had better come-up with a better answer than "all your S1s and S2s are junk when NTSC goes away" or they are going to have a ****storm of unhappy customers over this.


----------



## dswallow

Laserfan said:


> Actually, I already have one, a Hughes HD-HTL which cost >$500 just a few years ago. Then Guess What? DirecTV decided to change their technology, and of course Tivo continues not to support its ATSC capability.
> 
> Tivo had better come-up with a better answer than "all your S1s and S2s are junk when NTSC goes away" or they are going to have a ****storm of unhappy customers over this.


That's a DirecTV receiver. While it can also receive ATSC, it's purpose in life wasn't to downconvert ATSC to NTSC.

NTSC isn't going away anytime soon, only over-the-air NTSC broadcasts, and TiVo already has two receivers capable of receiving ATSC over-the-air directly... with dual tuners, even.

There's a path. Follow it. Even 8-track player and turntable owners learned to deal with it.


----------



## Laserfan

dswallow said:


> There's a path. Follow it.


I guess 38000+ posts qualifies you as a true "fan boy", but it doesn't change my opinion that Tivo had better plan SOMETHING to keep tens of thousands of S1 and S2 owners from finding their boxes are useless on switchover day.


----------



## Adam1115

Laserfan said:


> Actually, I already have one, a Hughes HD-HTL which cost >$500 just a few years ago. Then Guess What? DirecTV decided to change their technology, and of course Tivo continues not to support its ATSC capability.
> 
> Tivo had better come-up with a better answer than "all your S1s and S2s are junk when NTSC goes away" or they are going to have a ****storm of unhappy customers over this.


That isn't a SD ATSC OTA converter box.


----------



## Shawn95GT

DirectTV looks to have built a box like I'd have expected Tivo to, for one of their ATSC-less DVRs:


----------



## Laserfan

Adam1115 said:


> That isn't a SD ATSC OTA converter box.


The Hughes HTL-HD is an ATSC tuner and outputs DVI and Component in HD, but also S-Vid and Composite in SD as well, and in fact it's very good at it--an outstanding ATSC tuner.

These are plentiful on ebay for dirt cheap and I'd recommend to others in need of an ATSC stb to try it. The only issue/caveat is that any of these boxes that are not at the latest/last rev of firmware might not function as well as ones that were updated before Hughes cut-off the automatic firmware updates from their sat system.


----------



## classicsat

Laserfan said:


> Let's see if I get this right:
> 
> Although both S1 and S2 Tivo boxes have analog inputs, and can control sat and cable boxes and thus record from them, there is nothing presently or in the works by Tivo to update the software in these boxes to control Digital (ATSC) Tuners (set-top boxes) post-2009 changeover to DigitalTV. Izzat right?


There is nothing TiVo has stated one way or the other. All we can do is speculate what TiVo may do, or should do.

If they were to modify the software to support digital OTA channels, one can bet that the Series 1s will be left out, since they don't really want to develop for that platform anymore.



> I have an S1, with Lifetime service even, and while the above does not make me happy  I'll tell ya I'd REALLY be upset if I'd just bought a couple/three of the S2s that are even now being sold by Tivo?
> 
> Something's gotta give I think: either Tivo needs to add ATSC STB control capability to older Tivos (the guide data is certainly there--I use it with my S3 OTA), or they are going to need to create one heckuvan attractive trade-in program for people to upgrade to S3s and HDs????
> 
> Gotta be a lot of hand-wringing going on at Tivo--doesn't anyone here have some inside info?


As an Allstar at the TiVo support forum, whom do get at odd tid-bits, even I never heard anything.


----------



## classicsat

If TiVo wanted to make a standalone ATSC SD tuner, and it be Coupon Eligible, they would have at least announced it by now. IMO, they could have made one compliant with coupon eligibility requirements, and direct TiVo control (many of them do have a serial service port).


----------



## BobCamp1

Laserfan said:


> I guess 38000+ posts qualifies you as a true "fan boy", but it doesn't change my opinion that Tivo had better plan SOMETHING to keep tens of thousands of S1 and S2 owners from finding their boxes are useless on switchover day.


It's called, "subscribe to cable, DirecTV, Dish, or FIOS, if you already haven't."

When I bought lifetime back in 2001, I knew there was a chance that I would have to do something at the digital transition. I assumed that I was only going to get 7 or 8 years out of the box. As it turns out (FF to today), it's not that big a deal. Everyone has a converter box that still outputs NTSC. So the S1 is mainly unaffected -- you just can't use it with rabbit ears (which was the best-case scenario). It'll work exactly the same if you're currently not using rabbit ears.

Whatever Tivo does won't help me. I have a standalone D* receiver and rabbit ears connected to the Tivo. Even if Tivo were to support a converter box, there's no setting that would allow me to control that converter box and my D* box at the same time. The DST fiasco proved that they are unwilling to update the software on the S1s and S2s. This fix is MORE complicated than that, and may even involve a hardware mod. So, I'll just spend an extra $3 / month and get locals thru D* (and maybe pay $100 to get the other dish installed -- unless FIOS TV is available by then which it might).

So how many people use their S1 and S2 to only receive OTA content? This is the only group Tivo can really help. If this number is small, chances are Tivo won't do anything. Plus, there are going to be almost 20 different coupon-eligible converter boxes and who knows how many others that are not eligible. If just one of them happens to use the same IR codes as an existing cable box, then Tivo doesn't have to do anything. I think they are still in a wait-and-see approach until this summer.


----------



## Adam1115

Laserfan said:


> The Hughes HTL-HD is an ATSC tuner and outputs DVI and Component in HD, but also S-Vid and Composite in SD as well, and in fact it's very good at it--an outstanding ATSC tuner.
> 
> These are plentiful on ebay for dirt cheap and I'd recommend to others in need of an ATSC stb to try it. The only issue/caveat is that any of these boxes that are not at the latest/last rev of firmware might not function as well as ones that were updated before Hughes cut-off the automatic firmware updates from their sat system.


It's an HD Satellite receiver. No surprise why a series 2 TiVo wouldn't support it.

And the HD STB market is a niche at best, I don't think TiVo's lack of HD-STB's is going to impact their decision to support SD Converter boxes that millions of people will buy or get for free.


----------



## BobCamp1

Shawn95GT said:


> DirectTV looks to have built a box like I'd have expected Tivo to, for one of their ATSC-less DVRs:


That thing will only work with an HR-21. That box should have been built six months ago. D* does not provide any local HD channels to ~30% of its subscribers, and they are missing at least one local channel for almost 100% of their subscribers (they rarely carry CW or other smaller channels). They had to build that box.

How many Tivo users use their S1s and S2s solely for OTA use? I think it's much less than 30%. Whenever people come over to my house, they are shocked that anyone still uses rabbit ears. They then peek outside to see if I have a Fred Flintstone car as well. 

Seriously, just subscribe to lifeline cable or get DSS and be done with it. Or just buy Echostar's new OTA DVR box.


----------



## Laserfan

BobCamp1 said:


> How many Tivo users use their S1s and S2s solely for OTA use? I think it's much less than 30%.


Gosh, Bob, I don't even think it's THAT big, but if it is then Tivo has a bigger problem than even I have believed.

I find it amusing/amazing that everyone here says "so what" about this and appear ready to defend-Tivo-to-the-death. You can bet there are more than a few people at Tivo that are concerned about it (not S1s so much perhaps, but recently-sold S2s for sure). Houston, they have a problem.


----------



## steve614

dswallow said:


> There's a path. Follow it. Even 8-track player and turntable owners learned to deal with it.





BobCamp1 said:


> It's called, "subscribe to cable, DirecTV, Dish, or FIOS, if you already haven't."


If that is going to be the route one must take to keep S2 functionallity, then my lifetime S2 is just going to have to sit in a closet until Tivo offers another lifetime transfer for which it will be eligible. 

I'm strictly an OTA user who has never had a cable bill, and even with this writers strike, I _still_ have a backlog of shows to watch. 
I just don't see the need to _pay_ for programming. What I can't get OTA, I'll eventually be able to get via Netflix.

Sure, in the past, the incentive to go cable was better PQ, but I was able to live with the reception I got and now with the PQ of digital OTA, I have _even less_ incentive to get cable.

./my perspective: People who have cable -- how the heck do they watch ALL that programming?


----------



## classicsat

BobCamp1 said:


> Whatever Tivo does won't help me. I have a standalone D* receiver and rabbit ears connected to the Tivo. Even if Tivo were to support a converter box, there's no setting that would allow me to control that converter box and my D* box at the same time.


All Series 1/2s support setup for more than one box, provided one box is satellite, except for the Series 2 DT (right now anyways).


> The DST fiasco proved that they are unwilling to update the software on the S1s and S2s. This fix is MORE complicated than that, and may even involve a hardware mod.


Which fix? DST is purely software, as is support for digital OTA tuners.


> So, I'll just spend an extra $3 / month and get locals thru D* (and maybe pay $100 to get the other dish installed -- unless FIOS TV is available by then which it might).


At least you have that option.


> So how many people use their S1 and S2 to only receive OTA content? This is the only group Tivo can really help. If this number is small, chances are Tivo won't do anything.


My guess is <5% of their customers use OTA only. Some have upgraded to a TiVoHD or Series 3.


> Plus, there are going to be almost 20 different coupon-eligible converter boxes and who knows how many others that are not eligible. If just one of them happens to use the same IR codes as an existing cable box, then Tivo doesn't have to do anything. I think they are still in a wait-and-see approach until this summer.


Coupons have nothing to do with it.

Since none (or few) of the manufacturers are in the cable box business, chances are cable codes would not match.
If they are to add digital OTA support, they need get a bunch of those boxes and learn their remote codes.
When they add that support they can add existing/past ATSC tuner boxes, and properly support digital OTA tuning on HD satellite boxes (in or out of service), which have OTA tuners.

And lastly, the real issue is handling the "-"ed sub-channel changing, which Series 1/2s supposed don't handle. IR codes are a secondary issue.


----------



## Shawn95GT

BobCamp1 said:


> That thing will only work with an HR-21. That box should have been built six months ago. D* does not provide any local HD channels to ~30% of its subscribers, and they are missing at least one local channel for almost 100% of their subscribers (they rarely carry CW or other smaller channels). They had to build that box.
> 
> How many Tivo users use their S1s and S2s solely for OTA use? I think it's much less than 30%. Whenever people come over to my house, they are shocked that anyone still uses rabbit ears. They then peek outside to see if I have a Fred Flintstone car as well.
> 
> Seriously, just subscribe to lifeline cable or get DSS and be done with it. Or just buy Echostar's new OTA DVR box.


Maybe Tivo can 'approve' the hardware as they have Western Digital's DVR Expander.

I know, pipe dream but a supported $70 solution to get ATSC on a S2 would go over well.


----------



## sitcomchap

I just activated a tivo series 2 three weeks ago. Bought lifetime service. I only receive over-the-air transmission and refuse to pay for cable. But after reading this thread, I am gathering that I just paid $399 for one year of tivo service because in one year the box turns into a brick.

So my question is: Tivo service has a 30 day warranty. Can I cancel? What is the cancellation charge? Can I downgrade to monthly service? Any advice (besides telling me to beat my head on the wall for being such an idiot?) Thanks.


----------



## dswallow

sitcomchap said:


> I just activated a tivo series 2 three weeks ago. Bought lifetime service. I only receive over-the-air transmission and refuse to pay for cable. But after reading this thread, I am gathering that I just paid $399 for one year of tivo service because in one year the box turns into a brick.
> 
> So my question is: Tivo service has a 30 day warranty. Can I cancel? What is the cancellation charge? Can I downgrade to monthly service? Any advice (besides telling me to beat my head on the wall for being such an idiot?) Thanks.


You should have 30 days to return the unit and to get a refund on the service. I'd suggest getting a TiVo HD. That'll add 8VSB/ATSC tuning, give you two tuners and work with current NTSC broadcasts, plus it provides an avenue for you to utilize CableCARDs should you ever find it appropriate to subscribe to cable for something. And having lifetime on a TiVo HD should have some reasonable retained value even after next year.


----------



## Shawn95GT

dswallow said:


> You should have 30 days to return the unit and to get a refund on the service. I'd suggest getting a TiVo HD. That'll add 8VSB/ATSC tuning, give you two tuners and work with current NTSC broadcasts, plus it provides an avenue for you to utilize CableCARDs should you ever find it appropriate to subscribe to cable for something. And having lifetime on a TiVo HD should have some reasonable retained value even after next year.


X2.

The Tivo HD rocks for OTA (analog & digital).


----------



## kb7oeb

Ditto on the tivo HD, don't count on tivo to start supporting digital tuners on the old boxes.


----------



## sitcomchap

dswallow said:


> You should have 30 days to return the unit and to get a refund on the service. I'd suggest getting a TiVo HD. That'll add 8VSB/ATSC tuning, give you two tuners and work with current NTSC broadcasts, plus it provides an avenue for you to utilize CableCARDs should you ever find it appropriate to subscribe to cable for something. And having lifetime on a TiVo HD should have some reasonable retained value even after next year.


Thanks. Don't want to return the unit though. Only paid $20 for it. If they will let me, I will switch to monthly service.


----------



## sitcomchap

kb7oeb said:


> Ditto on the tivo HD, don't count on tivo to start supporting digital tuners on the old boxes.


Don't know what it is worth, but I emailed the situation to WeaKnees.com and their response was: "The TiVo will work with a converter box so long as the TiVo can control the box. TiVo will likely come out with a software update so that units like yours will be able to work." Just thought I would pass that on. Wish it were something more definite. It pains me to give up lifetime service (although it would pain me more to pay $399 and only get one year out of it.)


----------



## magnus

It currently would work with an old activated Voom box but given that you paid $399 for lifetime and still have 30 days to cancel... I think I would do that and get a Tivo HD.... if you are wanting to record OTA only.



sitcomchap said:


> Don't know what it is worth, but I emailed the situation to WeaKnees.com and their response was: "The TiVo will work with a converter box so long as the TiVo can control the box. TiVo will likely come out with a software update so that units like yours will be able to work." Just thought I would pass that on. Wish it were something more definite. It pains me to give up lifetime service (although it would pain me more to pay $399 and only get one year out of it.)


----------



## MickeS

sitcomchap said:


> I just activated a tivo series 2 three weeks ago. Bought lifetime service. I only receive over-the-air transmission and refuse to pay for cable. But after reading this thread, I am gathering that I just paid $399 for one year of tivo service because in one year the box turns into a brick.
> 
> So my question is: Tivo service has a 30 day warranty. Can I cancel? What is the cancellation charge? Can I downgrade to monthly service? Any advice (besides telling me to beat my head on the wall for being such an idiot?) Thanks.


Hurry up and contact them and get out of that! Get a TiVoHD instead.


----------



## sitcomchap

MickeS said:


> Hurry up and contact them and get out of that! Get a TiVoHD instead.


Thanks to everyone who responded. Got my $399 refunded. Turned around and pre-paid for one year of service ($99). That gets me to February 2009, when the analog transmisison stops. For this one year of Tivo, I will have paid $120 ($20 for the tivo box plus $99 for the service). And then at that time, I'll think about getting an HD tivo. Thanks again.


----------



## Puppy76

sitcomchap said:


> Thanks to everyone who responded. Got my $399 refunded. Turned around and pre-paid for one year of service ($99). That gets me to February 2009, when the analog transmisison stops. For this one year of Tivo, I will have paid $120 ($20 for the tivo box plus $99 for the service). And then at that time, I'll think about getting an HD tivo. Thanks again.


Well that's not terrible at all. Tivo HD's aren't too badly priced now, and might be cheaper still in a year.

Luckily my Tivo S2 will be four years old by the time TV goes away  I've definitely gotten my money's worth.


----------



## ronniejay

I was looking for how my 2 Toshiba TIVO's would work with the converter boxes. Have not seen any good news yet for OTA like I use mine. I have a Voom box now to feed my Toshiba 52" monitor HDTV. Voom HD boxes are starting to go bonkers, constantly rebooting when they encounter a channel using a datacaster which is sending programing info, etc. I belive many stations will pack more info into the signal (PBS and CBS, for sure). The voom boxes are not supported any more and there is no way to fix this problem, nor activate non-activated units. I will have to buy a new receiver to replace the voom.


magnus said:


> *For OTA:*
> An old Voom (activated) box will work with that S2 box now. Do a search on this forum for Voom and you'll find more information about that. You can probably find one of those boxes on craigslist or ebay for under $50. The gist of it is to set it up as a Motorola set top box and say that you have Dish or Directv service.
> 
> *For Satellite:*
> Your box should work with Dish or Directv just fine. So, that's another option. I use Dish Now (Prepaid service) during the times when I feel that there is content worth watching.
> 
> *For Cable:*
> You can use analog cable until the cable companies shut it off. I hear that TWC will shut it off in 2009 or 2010.


----------



## magnus

Yes, that is sad but true for the old Voom boxes. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Tivo will at least support one of the converter boxes soon.



ronniejay said:


> I was looking for how my 2 Toshiba TIVO's would work with the converter boxes. Have not seen any good news yet for OTA like I use mine. I have a Voom box now to feed my Toshiba 52" monitor HDTV. Voom HD boxes are starting to go bonkers, constantly rebooting when they encounter a channel using a datacaster which is sending programing info, etc. I belive many stations will pack more info into the signal (PBS and CBS, for sure). The voom boxes are not supported any more and there is no way to fix this problem, nor activate non-activated units. I will have to buy a new receiver to replace the voom.


----------



## Shawn95GT

If you do replace the Voom I'd try to find a Motorola box to replace it with as Motorola is kind of generic with their IR codes.

Have you blocked the offending channels on the Voom box? 2 of my three Voom boxes seem to handle this just fine but one is goofy and just kind of reset it self now and then.


----------



## ronniejay

Shawn95GT said:


> If you do replace the Voom I'd try to find a Motorola box to replace it with as Motorola is kind of generic with their IR codes.
> 
> Have you blocked the offending channels on the Voom box? 2 of my three Voom boxes seem to handle this just fine but one is goofy and just kind of reset it self now and then.


I was getting rebooting on 8-1, PBS here in Houston. in mid 2007. I called the station engineer. He said they had just that weekend put in a new box for testing. He had me hold while he went and disconnected it. I rebooted and told him it was fine. Never heard back and it works fine to this day. No problem on any other channel. Others across the country have reported CBS and PBS problems.


----------



## Puppy76

ronniejay said:


> I was getting rebooting on 8-1, PBS here in Houston. in mid 2007. I called the station engineer. He said they had just that weekend put in a new box for testing. He had me hold while he went and disconnected it. I rebooted and told him it was fine. Never heard back and it works fine to this day. No problem on any other channel. Others across the country have reported CBS and PBS problems.


And that's with over the air ATSC?


----------



## MokTask

I am one of the OTA only customers, with a lifetime Tivo S2. Our local PBS Station has just stopped sending analog signals, something about a failing transmitter and it "not worth it" to repair it, so they now are only sending out the digital content. Nice.

So, as of right now, I'm screwed. No more PBS-Kids for my two young sons, and no way to get it. I just signed up for my coupons in hopes that maybe by the time they get here, Tivo will speak-up about which one of the boxes they'll have the IR Blaster codes for to work.

But, I'm on the fence weather Tivo, Inc will actually WANT to support those boxes. My hope is that they'll again offer the Lifetime Transfer AND give me a deal I can live with to make that transfer. I'm hopeful though, that they WILL support it, but I think their silence may be the rule.

I'll have 3 months before my coupons expire when I get them, so they have that long to decide what to do before I must jump on the coupon. I'm crossing fingers they do.


----------



## magnus

From what the Tivo CSRs have told me... Tivo will not be providing software updates for this. You're supposed to switch to cable or satellite from what they told me.

However, I think they could provide the following solution without breaking the bank. And it would work with a S1 Tivo as well.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6084791&highlight=server+side#post6084791



MokTask said:


> I am one of the OTA only customers, with a lifetime Tivo S2. Our local PBS Station has just stopped sending analog signals, something about a failing transmitter and it "not worth it" to repair it, so they now are only sending out the digital content. Nice.
> 
> So, as of right now, I'm screwed. No more PBS-Kids for my two young sons, and no way to get it. I just signed up for my coupons in hopes that maybe by the time they get here, Tivo will speak-up about which one of the boxes they'll have the IR Blaster codes for to work.
> 
> But, I'm on the fence weather Tivo, Inc will actually WANT to support those boxes. My hope is that they'll again offer the Lifetime Transfer AND give me a deal I can live with to make that transfer. I'm hopeful though, that they WILL support it, but I think their silence may be the rule.
> 
> I'll have 3 months before my coupons expire when I get them, so they have that long to decide what to do before I must jump on the coupon. I'm crossing fingers they do.


----------



## atmuscarella

Currently TiVo has OTA only users by the short hairs because the only choices for an OTA only digital DVRs are a TiVo HD or some type of computer DVR. But now that it is clear that DN is going to build and sell the TR-50 OTA dual tuner HD DVR, TiVo actually has some competition. 

So TiVo can choose to not support controlling the OTA digital tuner boxes with Series 1 & 2 TiVos - that is their right. But OTA users will now be able to choose to buy something other than a TiVo to record OTA. 

My advise to TiVo - pissed off customers will go somewhere else if they can and now your OTA customers will be able to go somewhere else. 

Thanks,


----------



## magnus

correct, which makes a hell of a lot of sense to tell them to go to satellite or cable.

so, i imagine that the competition for OTA users would be something that Tivo has given up.

my 2 cents... make the suggested server side fix and then make these boxes capable of getting free service (limit 1 per household).... the cost of this service could be borne by advertising dollars. maybe make these type of boxes only available for OTA support anyway.

pretty soon these S2 Tivos will be useless (for OTA anyway) and could be put to good use.


----------



## Shawn95GT

magnus said:


> correct, which makes a hell of a lot of sense to tell them to go to satellite or cable.


Not to mention Dish's box is dual tuner...


----------



## Puppy76

Seems like it's just a software update to control a tuner box and show an ATSC line up (which Tivo is already paying for). I wouldn't think it's all THAT hard.

Comcast just bought out Insight in my area, so I don't know how much longer I'll have basic cable (I expect the rates to keep rising). Only reason I have it now is it was cheaper than paying for internet service by itself (weird but true).

I tried a Series 3 briefly last year, but it had weird audio issues so I took it back. I've heard so many little issues with it (particularly with Tivo2go, which is mandatory for me) that I don't know that I'd try another one, versus just throwing some tuners in an older Windows box (although I don't know that Windows Media Center actually works reliably...)


----------



## steve614

atmuscarella said:


> Currently TiVo has OTA only users by the short hairs because the only choices for an OTA only digital DVRs are a TiVo HD or some type of computer DVR. But now that it is clear that DN is going to build and sell the TR-50 OTA dual tuner HD DVR, TiVo actually has some competition.
> 
> So TiVo can choose to not support controlling the OTA digital tuner boxes with Series 1 & 2 TiVos - that is their right. But OTA users will now be able to choose to buy something other than a TiVo to record OTA.
> 
> My advise to TiVo - pissed off customers will go somewhere else if they can and now your OTA customers will be able to go somewhere else.
> 
> Thanks,


Sure, I'll be disappointed in TiVo if they don't support _at least_ one box.
I mean, look at how long they supported S1 owners. I remember reading how they went above and beyond (IMHO) in supporting the S1 after it was obsolete.
Now I expect them to do the same for us S2 owners. [/rant]

If they don't end up supporting a converter box for the S2, I'll just be down 1 tuner and as long as networks still broadcast some content in SD, I'll be able to MRV.
Also, I'll use it for my Tivocasts.

Maybe TiVo will have another Lifetime transfer deal when the S4 comes out.
If so, I'll trade up then.


----------



## bicker

atmuscarella said:


> My advise to TiVo - pissed off customers will go somewhere else if they can and now your OTA customers will be able to go somewhere else.


That's not really advice. That's an antagonistic opinion. 

Seriously, *advice *requires consideration of costs, alternative opportunities, and benefits, fully factoring-in limited resources.



Puppy76 said:


> Seems like it's just a software update to control a tuner box and show an ATSC line up (which Tivo is already paying for). I wouldn't think it's all THAT hard.


Famous last words. Someone in my company, not on the development team, who says that is wrong nine times out of ten.


----------



## Puppy76

bicker said:


> 4
> Famous last words. Someone in my company, not on the development team, who says that is wrong nine times out of ten.


I don't see how I could be wrong. The hardware is already capable of controlling a box by IR. It's just a matter of handing guide data. Honestly that sounds like something *I* could code by myself given a couple of weeks/months, and I'm terrible.

I can't really think an issue, unless for some reason none of the HD decoders support IR for changing channels.

If they don't do this, it'll just be because they're not willing to devote any resources to it at all (like two guys in a room for a few months), or they specifically want to push people to the S3 hardware. I don't really have that big a problem with that since we all knew the S2 would be useless after 2/09, but if it's not done it's not going to be because it would have been particularly hard to do.

Come to think of it, they already support satellite receivers, don't they? This situation wouldn't be any harder to do than that.


----------



## Shawn95GT

It is simply a matter of IR codes and new options in guided setup (cable + ATSC, antenna+ATSC, satellite + ATSC etc). It you're using ATSC and a STB from sat or cable you get to pick one is going to use the RF channel 3/4 input . You can play with this now using the cable + satellite option.


----------



## Puppy76

They wouldn't even have to support NTSC + ATSC. To make it even easier for them it could just totally ignore NTSC channels if you set it up for ATSC. For the most part you really wouldn't need NTSC if you've got an ATSC tuner even now, and it's a moot point in 10 months.


----------



## magnus

And still a server side solution would be the most economical and easiest to roll out. Since they already have the guide data for the relevant markets... it would just be a matter of making a dummy satellite provider in each and then changing the channel mappings.

I have found that the RCA DTA800 will work but the guide data to support it would need to be resolved to allow for sub channels. And you have to look around very hard to get it to work (now) with any of the guide data out there and it will only work for the main channels (you've got to be creative).

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6084791&highlight=server+side#post6084791



Puppy76 said:


> I don't see how I could be wrong. The hardware is already capable of controlling a box by IR. It's just a matter of handing guide data. Honestly that sounds like something *I* could code by myself given a couple of weeks/months, and I'm terrible.
> 
> I can't really think an issue, unless for some reason none of the HD decoders support IR for changing channels.
> 
> If they don't do this, it'll just be because they're not willing to devote any resources to it at all (like two guys in a room for a few months), or they specifically want to push people to the S3 hardware. I don't really have that big a problem with that since we all knew the S2 would be useless after 2/09, but if it's not done it's not going to be because it would have been particularly hard to do.
> 
> Come to think of it, they already support satellite receivers, don't they? This situation wouldn't be any harder to do than that.


----------



## atmuscarella

> Originally Posted by *bicker*
> That's not really advice. That's an antagonistic opinion.


The advise part of the my comment was that they now will have to factor competition into their decisions. In the past TiVo could make take actions such as disabling OTA support for the Series 2 DT a year before they had to without factoring in competition. This time around when they consider if they will support OTA digital STBs they will have to factor in the potential of loosing customers to a competitor. They may still decide to not support the digital STBs, but they may also decide they need to offer a deal to get the OTA users to replace their Series 1 & 2 TiVos with a TiVo HD instead of going to a DN TR-50.

Thanks,


----------



## kb7oeb

There are several threads on this forum from people have have successfully used certain HD ATSC and Directv boxes for OTA digital. With some homework it can be done now.


----------



## bicker

Puppy76 said:


> I don't see how I could be wrong.


That doesn't surprise me. My old product managers never could see how _they _could be wrong, either.

The general public doesn't know what the technical foundation is, what the available resources are, and what the strategic objectives are. Without inside information regarding all three, we simply are ill-equipped to make the kind of pronouncements you made.



Puppy76 said:


> Honestly that sounds like something *I* could code by myself given a couple of weeks/months, and I'm terrible.


It would be just as easy, then, for you to hack the box to do what you want, yourself, and TiVo wouldn't have to incur the costs of supporting it. Go for it. Let us know how it works out for you.


----------



## bicker

atmuscarella said:


> The advise part of the my comment was that they now will have to factor competition into their decisions.


We're really not sure, yet. If the TR-50 comes in at > $450, then it isn't really competition, is it? Beyond that, I am sure they know its coming, and I bet they're going to reflect that in their pricing. Regardless, the TR-50 will compete with the TiVo S3 or TiVo HD, not the TiVo S2DT.



atmuscarella said:


> They may still decide to not support the digital STBs, but they may also decide they need to offer a deal to get the OTA users to replace their Series 1 & 2 TiVos with a TiVo HD instead of going to a DN TR-50.


Abso-friggen-lutely. We're on the same page.


----------



## atmuscarella

> Originally Posted by *bicker*
> If the TR-50 comes in at > $450, then it isn't really competition, is it?


I agree pricing of the TR-50 will be import. I am thinking it needs to have a street price under $400 to really be competitive. Of course what a TiVo HD costs really depends on what options someone has available for the subscription costs.

We will also need to see how well the TR-50 actually works - I have made the assumption that it will function as well as the VIP 722 - but only time will tell.

The comment about the Series 2 DT was just to highlight that there was a time when TiVo could make decisions that effected OTA users and not have to worry about competition.

Thanks,


----------



## bicker

But but but.... this is a thread *about *the Series 2, atmuscarella. It isn't a tangential issue. If you are asserting that the TiVo S3 or TiVo HD must support the DTV transition, then I'd agree with you. (Luckily, they do!) The assertion here is that the S2 boxes must, and that's what I disagree about. There is no competition that explicitly prompts the need to support CECB support in the S2.


----------



## lew

I have no idea how many people are using tivos for OTA reception. Tivo has to decide if it makes sense to come up with a solution. A solution could include supporting one or more external tuners or offering an upgrade to a new unit such as the Tivo HD. Tivo could either discount the price of hardware, offer a service discount or at least allow users to transfer existing pre-paid/lifetime service.

I agree a server side solution is doable, but it might not be a productive use of resources.


----------



## weymo

I have a huge tube TV that's digital capable and have been very happy with the following combination:
- Comcast HD tuner
- TiVo Dual Tuner

HD cablebox works just like older models, TiVo channel changing codes work fine
Options on the HD cablebox offer options for letterboxing automatically or doing pass-thru...you can even choose what color for the letterbox boundary.

I'm finding that even low-quality recordings on the TiVo look great when the source is HD converted down to analog.

Maybe I'm old and my eyes aren't better than 20/20...but for regular old TV this is sufficient for my purposes. When I want to watch a movie, I crank up the hardware requirements.

I guess it's all relative.

Digital OTA is poor in my remote location but I can still flip the TV over to Digital input and watch live digital. I think there is going to be some serious gnashing of teeth when folks realize they're going to get pixellation and pauses rather than fuzz and audio when reception strength is poor. At least now you can HEAR the news report even if you can't SEE it. I wish the move to digital had separated the audio portion out with a fallback to analog audio just for public safety concerns...but then again, maybe I am just an old fart.

Based on the posts in this and other forums, it seems many folks are unhappy with TiVo's response to the impending digital transition.

Is everyone so unhappy, or are there others who have setups that are A-OK?


----------



## atmuscarella

> Originally Posted by *bicker*
> But but but.... this is a thread about the Series 2, atmuscarella. It isn't a tangential issue. If you are asserting that the TiVo S3 or TiVo HD must support the DTV transition, then I'd agree with you. (Luckily, they do!) The assertion here is that the S2 boxes must, and that's what I disagree about. There is no competition that explicitly prompts the need to support CECB support in the S2.


 Actually what I was/am trying to assert is that TiVo will need to factor in potential competition from upcoming Echostar TR-50 DVR, when deciding what to do or not due in regards to with Series 1 & 2 OTA users and the OTA digital to analog conversion. I am also asserting this competition should result in a different response from TiVo than if there wasn't any competition.

From a user's stand point I do have 2 Series 2 units and I do use both of them to record OTA (along with Satellite). So I personally have some interest in how this plays out. However because I am planning on going HD this fall most anyway it goes will be fine with me.

But for someone who is OTA only and is planning on staying SD and maybe has a lifetime Series 2 TiVo this could be a big deal. If TiVo adds support for the new digital STBs to Series 2 TiVos that user needs to spend about $10/Tivo to be where he/she is now, if TiVo doesn't add support that user has to spend several $100s of dollars to be where they are now.

Thanks,


----------



## MighTiVo

weymo said:


> I have a huge tube TV that's digital capable and have been very happy with the following combination:
> - Comcast HD tuner
> - TiVo Dual Tuner
> 
> HD cablebox works just like older models, TiVo channel changing codes work fine
> Options on the HD cablebox offer options for letterboxing automatically or doing pass-thru...you can even choose what color for the letterbox boundary.


Cable is not available in my area, all I want is for TiVo to treat a Digital OTA set top box just like it treats your Comcast HD tuner.

I suspect the problem is making a change in the guide data, not the IR codes.

I think TiVo missed the boat by not branding an easy to use USB and SVideo connected tuner to upgrade all their existing S2 systems to digital capable...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

weymo said:


> Based on the posts in this and other forums, it seems many folks are unhappy with TiVo's response to the impending digital transition.
> 
> Is everyone so unhappy, or are there others who have setups that are A-OK?


I would say people are more impatient then anything else  TiVo has not said anything one way or the other on this so everything in the threads is complete speculation anyway.
My speculation is that TiVo sees there is not really a significant amount of users with analog OTA on series 1 or 2. They are waiting to see what impact the TR-50 has and can easily respond to that with a Christamas Deal on a TiVo HD which can boost sales for more than just OTA antennas and converters that TiVo would most likely rather not get into the business of selling anyway

I personally am fine with no response since I use a Tivo HD with Digital OTA already and have no concern about the switch of OTA to digital.


----------



## MighTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> My speculation is that TiVo sees there is not really a significant amount of users with analog OTA on series 1 or 2.


Easy solution to that problem
Start calling TiVo Customer Support to ask about the situation
Live agent support available: Monday - Sunday
7:00 AM - 8:00 PM Pacific
Phone number: 877-367-8486

or fill out the feature request form asking for digital OTA support
http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/2web519.htm



ZeoTiVo said:


> They are waiting to see what impact the TR-50 has and can easily respond to that with a Christamas Deal on a TiVo HD which can boost sales for more than just OTA antennas and converters that TiVo would most likely rather not get into the business of selling anyway


I don't understand that.
Wait until subscribers start jumping ship before you support them?
TiVo need only certify an OTA tuner, they could also OEM to take advantage of branding like they have with wireless and require the OEM provider handle all support and warranty issues
While the sales of a digital OTA set top box are not insignificant, this is not just about making a huge profit. This is about a very easy solution for consumers and being able to retain them as loyal customers.


----------



## classicsat

Puppy76 said:


> Seems like it's just a software update to control a tuner box and show an ATSC line up (which Tivo is already paying for). I wouldn't think it's all THAT hard.


It at least needs a couple software engineers to tackle ( that could make more money developing some other project for the company), and some sample boxes to test on. Then it needs tested. Yada Yada Yada.

And that is if it can get by corporate, whom will have to approve the "expenditure".


----------



## classicsat

magnus said:


> And still a server side solution would be the most economical and easiest to roll out. Since they already have the guide data for the relevant markets... it would just be a matter of making a dummy satellite provider in each and then changing the channel mappings.


That is not the user friendliest though.

TiVo would want to go with something that their less technically intuitive customers can understand, and a backdoor "hack" is not it. What they want is an "antenna with box" setup option, nothing less.

Now if they cannot get that by TPTB, they could throw your solution in there, unsupported.


----------



## jayhawk069

Adam1115 said:


> This is problematic. There are areas that the DBS companies don't provide LIL, or are missing stations, or block stations that you can receive OTA because of DMA issues.


Does no one speak English anymore?


----------



## bicker

atmuscarella said:


> But for someone who is OTA only and is planning on staying SD and maybe has a lifetime Series 2 TiVo this could be a big deal.


Which is why they've offered the lifetime transfer option for folks purchasing new S3/HD boxes.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

MighTiVo said:


> Easy solution to that problem


It is our problem, not TiVo's. TiVo can very easily see how the guide data is requested from the boxes and probably has a standard monthly report that includes how many of which box are OTA.

That ties into my speculation that since TiVo is not saying anything on this that the numbers are not significantly high. Of course they may still see a positive ROI on enabling some digital antenna(s), that we do not know either.


----------



## magnus

I will concede that fact but it's better than just throwing these boxes in the trash.

Personally, I think they could leverage these old boxes to offer something comparable to the TR-50... well almost anyway.

Free service (1 per household), OTA only w/ a limit to the number of season passes. The service could be paid for entirely by add sponsorship (in other words... more ads for these types of boxes).

Tivo would be environmentally friendly by offering an outlet for these boxes to be used... instead of them going to the dump.



classicsat said:


> That is not the user friendliest though.
> 
> TiVo would want to go with something that their less technically intuitive customers can understand, and a backdoor "hack" is not it. What they want is an "antenna with box" setup option, nothing less.
> 
> Now if they cannot get that by TPTB, they could throw your solution in there, unsupported.


----------



## magnus

I have 2 boxes that are set to satellite w/ set top box but I use OTA. How does that show up on the report?



ZeoTiVo said:


> It is our problem, not TiVo's. TiVo can very easily see how the guide data is requested from the boxes and probably has a standard monthly report that includes how many of which box are OTA.
> 
> That ties into my speculation that since TiVo is not saying anything on this that the numbers are not significantly high. Of course they may still see a positive ROI on enabling some digital antenna(s), that we do not know either.


----------



## steve614

bicker said:


> Which is why they've offered the lifetime transfer option for folks purchasing new S3/HD boxes.


Sure...IF your lifetime was activated prior to 10/31/*03*.


----------



## Shawn95GT

It doesn't matter, the lifetime transfer deal sucks anyways. I got soaked 3x on it and if I could get a 'do over' I would have just paid the old MSD rate. $600 ($200 transfer free x3) not to mention the premium I paid as a 'VIP' for my first S3 buys a whole lot of $6.95/mo (dang near 30 years worth!).

For $100 more just buy lifetime again and be done with it now that MSD costs more.

In my case my 3x Lifetimed S2s are now worth less than the hard drives inside them since the lifetimes was transferred to my S3s. I probably could have got my original lifetime purchase back had I chosen to sell them instead of doing the transfer offer.


----------



## wmcbrine

Shawn95GT said:


> $600 ($200 transfer free x3) not to mention the premium I paid as a 'VIP' for my first S3 buys a whole lot of $6.95/mo (dang near 30 years worth!).


$600 / $6.95 a month is only a little over seven years.


----------



## bicker

steve614 said:


> Sure...IF your lifetime was activated prior to 10/31/*03*.


No, there have been previous lifetime transfer options that didn't have that restriction. We've had our chance.


----------



## bicker

Shawn95GT said:


> It doesn't matter, the lifetime transfer deal sucks anyways.


You can make your own choice whether or not to take the deal, but the deal being offered does matter. They've placed a cost on being able to transfer your lifetime service, and so with regard to the issue being discussed, that was the avenue for pursuing keeping the lifetime subscription alive. I think the issue is that folks underestimate what the company figures is the cost to them of the lifetime subscription. That's not unusual, that customers and suppliers differ about what something is worth.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

magnus said:


> I have 2 boxes that are set to satellite w/ set top box but I use OTA. How does that show up on the report?


do you have the full channel list selected or have you narrowed it down to just the locals?

Plus your solution will work past the shutdown of analog so you are likely to continue using that solution until some other factor causes you to change.


----------



## Shawn95GT

wmcbrine said:


> $600 / $6.95 a month is only a little over seven years.


yes sorry. I was tired last night and units bit me. months vs years.  It's just shy of 29 months for all three at $6.95/ea.


----------



## Shawn95GT

bicker said:


> You can make your own choice whether or not to take the deal, but the deal being offered does matter. They've placed a cost on being able to transfer your lifetime service, and so with regard to the issue being discussed, that was the avenue for pursuing keeping the lifetime subscription alive. I think the issue is that folks underestimate what the company figures is the cost to them of the lifetime subscription. That's not unusual, that customers and suppliers differ about what something is worth.


Agreed, and at the time it didn't sound like a bad deal. A year later I felt like I'd been had, especially when Lifetime was re-offered for only $100 more than the transfer fee.

You can't predict the future and you never know what Tivo is going to offer so you have to decide 'in the moment'.


----------



## BobCamp1

magnus said:


> I have 2 boxes that are set to satellite w/ set top box but I use OTA. How does that show up on the report?


I'm confused. Do you mean you had D*+OTA, but only have OTA now, and never bothered to rerun guided setup? Or, like me, do you use DirecTV but get network channels OTA?

These magical numbers everyone is talking about are just for people who are OTA only. People with OTA/box combinations obviously have other means of access to locals. And how would Tivo control two boxes at the same time?

I think Tivo is just waiting to see if they will get lucky. Maybe one of the ATSC tuner boxes will happen to work with a Tivo as-is. I don't know if this is even possible since Tivo doesn't know the "-" stations. But most people don't record the substations anyway (unless it's PBS).

Plus, hackers know the Tivo box better than Tivo does at this point. It wouldn't surprise me if someone came up with a hack for this.


----------



## Puppy76

bicker said:


> That doesn't surprise me. My old product managers never could see how _they _could be wrong, either.


Rather than insult me, you're going to need to come up with actual reasons what I'm saying isn't true. At least speculate.

What we're talking about here is laughably easy. If Tivo doesn't do it, it's not for any good technical reason, nor because it would cost them much to implement it. They're ALREADY implementing the same type of thing for other television sources.


----------



## rainbow

bicker said:


> Which is why they've offered the lifetime transfer option for folks purchasing new S3/HD boxes.


Do they have a new deal now? I did not qualify for the one they had last year as my series 2 was activated Oct, 2004. The deal they had last year was for $199 transfer but the S2 had to have been activated by Oct,2003.

I recently purchased an S3 and paid $399 for life time for that one. So now i have 2 lifetimes - 1 S2 and 1 S3.

If they did offer a deal as good as that one last year, I would transfer my S2 lifetime to an S3.

I would probably give my old S2 to my sister - she definitely would be doing OTA - no cable, etc is in the cards for her. I would hope and expect that the S2 tivo would work with OTA, attached to one of those converter boxes.


----------



## Puppy76

They had a transfer deal last...maybe April-ish? As far as I know it had no restrictions as to when you had to have owned your S2. There's nothing like that now though.


----------



## MighTiVo

atmuscarella said:


> But for someone who is OTA only and is planning on staying SD and maybe has a lifetime Series 2 TiVo this could be a big deal. If TiVo adds support for the new digital STBs to Series 2 TiVos that user needs to spend about $10/Tivo to be where he/she is now, if TiVo doesn't add support that user has to spend several $100s of dollars to be where they are now.





bicker said:


> Which is why they've offered the lifetime transfer option for folks purchasing new S3/HD boxes.


Look at it financially, logistically, environmentally, any way you want but it makes no sense at all to discard a perfectly good S2, purchase a new HD for several hundred dollars and pay what amounts to nearly or the same amount as the original lifetime subscription to transfer it to a new box and then hook up that shiny new HD tivo to a SD TV.
Even if you don't have a Lifetime, assuming you are out of your minimal agreement on the existing monthly service, the HD upgrade will still cost at least $300 to get the TiVo!

The alternative of buying a external tuner for under $100 (or getting a subsidized box from Uncle Sam with the taxes you already paid) makes perfect sense. Sure TiVo needs to do some development which will cost them money and sure they could make more money selling new HD boxes by forcing the old boxes to lose support. But that is just a bad choice anyway you look at it.

TiVo knows how to do this, TiVo can do this, they probably already have... This really isn't a big deal, TiVo has been working with external tuners for _digital cable_ and _digital satellite_ since day one. TiVo just needs to step up and take care of its customers that need to use an external tuner for _digital broadcast_.


----------



## MighTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> It is our problem, not TiVo's. TiVo can very easily see how the guide data is requested from the boxes and probably has a standard monthly report that includes how many of which box are OTA.
> 
> That ties into my speculation that since TiVo is not saying anything on this that the numbers are not significantly high. Of course they may still see a positive ROI on enabling some digital antenna(s), that we do not know either.


That report would not necessarily be accurate.
For example all my TiVo's have digital satellite enabled so I can switch to an external source such as a DVD player, video game, or switch to an modulated channel from another room.

Regardless I believe TiVo would get a better idea of demand for this need by requests rather than passively looking at set top configurations.


----------



## MighTiVo

Adam1115 said:


> Seems like your best option is to pay $3/mo? Why buy a converter box for each TV to save $36 a year?
> 
> As far as the third tv...
> 
> My thing with this converter box scenario is that you can get a BRAND NEW TV with a built in ATSC tuner for under $200.
> 
> So it doesn't make much sense to me to pay $80 for a converter and still have a crappy tv...


Under $200, sounds great, feel free to post links to those deals.
Still that doesn't help with a DVR so whats the point in this discussion?

The comparison here is under $100 for a external tuner vs paying $300 for a new HD TiVo plus subscription transfer fee of $200 if available. Multiply that times a couple TVs and you are talking real money! Then take into account that the TiVo with DVD is not even available with a ATSC tuner so you have even more problems...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

MighTiVo said:


> That report would not necessarily be accurate.
> For example all my TiVo's have digital satellite enabled so I can switch to an external source such as a DVD player, video game, or switch to an modulated channel from another room.
> 
> Regardless I believe TiVo would get a better idea of demand for this need by requests rather than passively looking at set top configurations.


I imagine you have all the channels but maybe 1 or 2 deselected then.

also what about the people who are not doing anything or thinking about it. We have requests in this forum from what? 100 people? If TiVo went by such a number of requests it would be a "don't even waste time in meetings bringing it up" issue to them


----------



## ZeoTiVo

MighTiVo said:


> The alternative of buying a external tuner for under $100 (or getting a subsidized box from Uncle Sam with the taxes you already paid) makes perfect sense. Sure TiVo needs to do some development which will cost them money and sure they could make more money selling new HD boxes by forcing the old boxes to lose support. But that is just a bad choice anyway you look at it.


why is not spending the money on supporting digital tuners on S2 (assuming low use for such) and doing what TiVo can to get people to upgrade to the more recent TiVo a bad choice for TiVo?
TiVo of course looks at this financially, with the only inexact part being "put dollar signs on customers affected by the transition using S2.


----------



## atmuscarella

> The comparison here is under $100 for a external tuner


No one needs to guess about the cost of the digital tuner STBs, Walmart has them for $50 and many other resellers have them for $60 - so the net cost for consumers with government coupons will be in the $10-20 range. Pretty cheap for anyone needing to use digital OTA with an analog TV/VCR/DVR/DVD burner.

Thanks,


----------



## MighTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> also what about the people who are not doing anything or thinking about it. We have requests in this forum from what? 100 people? If TiVo went by such a number of requests it would be a "don't even waste time in meetings bringing it up" issue to them


Don't be silly, it isn't a 1-1 ratio of people that report problems to people that have a problem. However problems do get set aside if nobody reports it.

Calls into customer support are generally taking very seriously and tend to represent a much larger community that those that take the time to make the call.

So don't sit idle, call in or email your concern!


----------



## ZeoTiVo

atmuscarella said:


> No one needs to guess about the cost of the digital tuner STBs, Walmart has them for $50 and many other resellers have them for $60 - so the net cost for consumers with government coupons will be in the $10-20 range. Pretty cheap for anyone needing to use digital OTA with an analog TV/VCR/DVR/DVD burner.
> 
> Thanks,


I do also agree that for some using S2 and OTA the best choice for *that* person would be the ability to use a digital antenna. 
I just also think that the best choice for TiVo Inc. is to not support the function. It is TiVo Inc. that will make the decision


----------



## ZeoTiVo

MighTiVo said:


> Don't be silly, it isn't a 1-1 ratio of people that report problems to people that have a problem. However problems do get set aside if nobody reports it.
> 
> Calls into customer support are generally taking very seriously and tend to represent a much larger community that those that take the time to make the call.
> 
> So don't sit idle, call in or email your concern!


Oh, yes - anyone with the problem should badger TiVo inc. That will help, but TiVo most likely has a pretty good idea of the number of S2 users that will be directly effected.

and lets say it is 100 times what we see here. that is 10,000 subs out of a million and a half.


----------



## rainbow

atmuscarella said:


> No one needs to guess about the cost of the digital tuner STBs, Walmart has them for $50 and many other resellers have them for $60 - so the net cost for consumers with government coupons will be in the $10-20 range. Pretty cheap for anyone needing to use digital OTA with an analog TV/VCR/DVR/DVD burner.
> 
> Thanks,


I know there is a different thread about these tuners, but I really just don't want to invest several hours of reading thru it. 

So, my question is --
is there 1 specific tuner of the many that are listed on the coupons that
appears to be the most preferred one?

_I think I found the answer to my own question - _



> _Hands-on with the EchoStar TR-40 and TR-50 converter boxes
> 
> Just like you heard from the press conference, EchoStar is showing off a couple of new analog converter boxes. While this kind of device doesn't have a place with DISH, splitting off EchoStar gives the company freedom to take on these ventures. First up, there's the TR-40 box with a built-in 7-day EPG, program search functions and VCR auto-tune timers. This device will be coming to you under both the EchoStar and Sling Media monikers for a penny under your $40 coupon; expect it in March. Second up is the TR-50, which adds in DVR functionality for both analog and digital (including HD) OTA. Step up to this model and you also get CC support, recording pop-up reminders, and a bevy of connectivity options for added functionality (Ethernet, modem and USB). No pricing info on the TR-50 for now, so EchoStar will be picking a number before the July availability_


FYI - the TR-40 has actually been delayed until June or July; and I did not see addtl info for the TR-50.


----------



## MighTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> why is not spending the money on supporting digital tuners on S2 (assuming low use for such) and doing what TiVo can to get people to upgrade to the more recent TiVo a bad choice for TiVo?
> TiVo of course looks at this financially, with the only inexact part being "put dollar signs on customers affected by the transition using S2.


1) The cost has to be low since this is core functionality, the use of an external tuner has been part of TiVo since the first sale.
2) Failure to support existing S2 systems does not equal moving all those customers to HD or S3 it will also mean many consumers switching to other capabilities which will indeed equate to a loss of revenue.
3) Losing S2 customers not only impacts monthly revenue but value added services such as Unbox, Rhapsody, etc.
4) Since this is such an easy upgrade to S2 capability failure to add the support will cause many to lose faith in TiVo's desire to take care of its customers and will cause additional loss of consumer confidence and word of mouth advertising.

"I like to think of (a TiVo box) now as a digital video receiver," says TiVo CEO Tom Rogers. "The idea we're building toward is, anything that's out there, from any source, you need TiVo to get it, organize it and make it fast and easy to be able to find it."

I couldn't agree more just add support for one more type of external tuner and bring the NTSC TiVo into the age of ATSC!


----------



## ZeoTiVo

MighTiVo said:


> 1) The cost has to be low since this is core functionality, the use of an external tuner has been part of TiVo since the first sale.


my assumption is the number of users with S2/OTA is low
your assumption is that the cost to implement is low.
Neither of us has numbers to back it up.

I will say that the coding is most likely straight forward - the problem is in the number of boxes to support. TiVo may be mulling over one brand but if they do that - they need a partnership with that brand in order to ensure it works well and the antenna maker does not make a change that leaves Tivo with no brand. Either approach has its share of hassles and oppurtunity costs for the number of people who would have to devote time to persuing the feature. _This is not just some add some code and release it item_

I am sure TiVo is taking lost subs into account as they do an ROI on adding support



> "I like to think of (a TiVo box) now as a digital video receiver," says TiVo CEO Tom Rogers. "The idea we're building toward is, anything that's out there, from any source, you need TiVo to get it, organize it and make it fast and easy to be able to find it."


I am pretty sure he had the Series 3/4 in mind when he said that. Heck - YouTube will not be on the series 2 - it already is not getting everything from every source. Sorry .


----------



## Adam1115

MighTiVo said:


> Under $200, sounds great, feel free to post links to those deals.
> Still that doesn't help with a DVR so whats the point in this discussion?
> 
> The comparison here is under $100 for a external tuner vs paying $300 for a new HD TiVo plus subscription transfer fee of $200 if available. Multiply that times a couple TVs and you are talking real money! Then take into account that the TiVo with DVD is not even available with a ATSC tuner so you have even more problems...


It doesn't help, when you reply to a 3 1/2 month old post without reading it.

I was responding to someone who was debating switching to DirecTV and has TV's without DVR's that get their signal with rabbit ears.

Here is a $149 digital tv though, since you couldn't find it...

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5633689


----------



## MighTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> Oh, yes - anyone with the problem should badger TiVo inc. That will help, but TiVo most likely has a pretty good idea of the number of S2 users that will be directly effected.
> 
> and lets say it is 100 times what we see here. that is 10,000 subs out of a million and a half.


I wouldn't suggesting badgering TiVo but I am glad you agree that communicating with any company your needs as a consumer will help them understand the needs of their customers and make good business decisions.

Don't forget TiVo has an easy to use form for requesting features:
http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/2web519.htm 
This form includes a survey of a whole list of items that TiVo wants your help in prioritizing. So take the time to ask for ATSC tuner support at the same time you help them with the questions they are actively asking for feedback.


----------



## MighTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> my assumption is the number of users with S2/OTA is low
> your assumption is that the cost to implement is low.
> Neither of us has numbers to back it up.
> 
> I will say that the coding is most likely straight forward - the problem is in the number of boxes to support. TiVo may be mulling over one brand but if they do that - they need a partnership with that brand in order to ensure it works well and the antenna maker does not make a change that leaves Tivo with no brand. Either approach has its share of hassles and oppurtunity costs for the number of people who would have to devote time to persuing the feature. _This is not just some add some code and release it item_
> 
> I am sure TiVo is taking lost subs into account as they do an ROI on adding support
> 
> I am pretty sure he had the Series 3/4 in mind when he said that. Heck - YouTube will not be on the series 2 - it already is not getting everything from every source. Sorry .


I haven't disagreed with any of that but what is your point again?

Mine is simple, as a customer of TiVo you should communicate with TiVo your desire for services and capabilities, simple as that. Demand by consumers directly to TiVo is the best way to have those capabilities supported.

And I wouldn't assume no youtube on S2


----------



## MighTiVo

Adam1115 said:


> I was responding to someone who was debating switching to DirecTV and has TV's without DVR's that get their signal with rabbit ears.


Exactly my point....
"How will Tivo Series 2 sets be able to tune the upcoming DTV Broadcast Converters? "

Thanks for the link, a little small, but not bad...


----------



## atmuscarella

> Originally Posted by *rainbow*
> So, my question is --
> is there 1 specific tuner of the many that are listed on the coupons that
> appears to be the most preferred one?


We are pretty early in this process but Engadget is asking the same question of it's readers:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/26/ask-engadget-hd-which-digital-tv-converter-is-the-one-to-buy/

Thanks,


----------



## pilotbob

MighTiVo said:


> The alternative of buying a external tuner for under $100 (or getting a subsidized box from Uncle Sam with the taxes you already paid) makes perfect sense.


Yep, you can get one at Walmart for about $5 with the voucher. But, it is SD only. Which would be find for a Series 2 I guess.

BOb


----------



## steve614

bicker said:


> No, there have been previous lifetime transfer options that didn't have that restriction. We've had our chance.


You're right. IIRC, the lifetime transfer offer before last, S3s were just out and I couldn't afford it.
I would've jumped all over the last one, but Tivo had to go and put that date restriction on it. Bastages.


Puppy76 said:


> They had a transfer deal last...maybe April-ish? As far as I know it had no restrictions as to when you had to have owned your S2. There's nothing like that now though.


The _LAST_ one had a date restriction. I don't remember the time span for the non-restricted transfer.


----------



## davidb4775

I am in an extreme minority as 1) an OTA user and 2) using a Toshiba SD-H400 TiVo. I am already planning on not being able to work as in the past. The only solution I can think of, though tedious and really not beneficial, is to connect the unit to one of these converter boxes and manually record to the unit on channel 3. As one can see, however, it would require setting the TiVo like a VCR (can this be done on normal TiVo S2 boxes?) to record channel 3 at xx:xx time for xx minutes and set the converter box to the channel I want to record off of. Of course this means that you can only record one program at a time off of one channel at a time--virtually worthless.

I wonder if anyone has suggested to TiVo that if they aren't going to have a tuner change option for S1 and S2, to offer a "trade-in" credit towards the purchase of a S3. Certainly they would want S1 and S2 customers to continue their subscriptions, which otherwise would be terminated and effect their cash flow.


----------



## bicker

Puppy76 said:


> What we're talking about here is laughably easy.


You don't know what you're talking about. If it was "laughably easy" then they actually would have done it. They haven't. QED.


----------



## bicker

Puppy76 said:


> They had a transfer deal last...maybe April-ish? As far as I know it had no restrictions as to when you had to have owned your S2.


That's correct.



MighTiVo said:


> Look at it financially, logistically, environmentally, any way you want but it makes no sense at all to discard a perfectly good S2, purchase a new HD for several hundred dollars and pay what amounts to nearly or the same amount as the original lifetime subscription to transfer it to a new box and then hook up that shiny new HD tivo to a SD TV.


If it doesn't serve your needs any longer, it does indeed make lots of sense. If it becomes practically useless, that will make that more likely to be the case. As long as you are satisfied with what it actually does, that's great, but if not, then yes, put is aside.



MighTiVo said:


> The alternative of buying a external tuner for under $100 (or getting a subsidized box from Uncle Sam with the taxes you already paid) makes perfect sense.


What does that mean: "makes perfect sense"? I think what you meant to say is that you WANT that alternative. It makes sense TO YOU, perhaps, if you don't have to pay several hundred dollars to get it to work (and if you were going to pay several hundred dollars, then you can just as well spend that money on a TiVo HD). That doesn't, actually, mean it makes sense, generally.



MighTiVo said:


> Sure TiVo needs to do some development which will cost them money and sure they could make more money selling new HD boxes by forcing the old boxes to lose support. But that is just a bad choice anyway you look at it.


But that's what was claimed before, and that was exactly what I was objecting to in the message you replied to. What you're asserting here simply isn't true. It's just wishful thinking.


----------



## magnus

Don't be confused. I'm stating that my S2 boxes are set to cable (on purpose) so that I can get the guide data and use the RCA DTA800 to get my locals. Do I get the guide data for all the channels? No, but it's better than nothing.

I am only using OTA... the other cable channels I just remove from my channel list.

This allows my Tivo to control the box in this manner. Cable set-up.
04 --> 04-1
08 --> 08-1
21 --> 21-1
68 --> 68-1

Dummy satellite (copy HD local channel listing and re-map)
041 --> 04-1
042 --> 04-2
681 --> 68-1
682 --> 68-2

I have already come up with the hack.... Tivo just needs to implement it. There is really no reason at all to hack the box... when Tivo could create the dummy satellite provider that I suggested.



BobCamp1 said:


> I'm confused. Do you mean you had D*+OTA, but only have OTA now, and never bothered to rerun guided setup? Or, like me, do you use DirecTV but get network channels OTA?
> 
> These magical numbers everyone is talking about are just for people who are OTA only. People with OTA/box combinations obviously have other means of access to locals. And how would Tivo control two boxes at the same time?
> 
> I think Tivo is just waiting to see if they will get lucky. Maybe one of the ATSC tuner boxes will happen to work with a Tivo as-is. I don't know if this is even possible since Tivo doesn't know the "-" stations. But most people don't record the substations anyway (unless it's PBS).
> 
> Plus, hackers know the Tivo box better than Tivo does at this point. It wouldn't surprise me if someone came up with a hack for this.


----------



## kb7oeb

Unless you have lifetime I think you are better off upgrading to a tivoHD. They sell retail locally for $249 and have been on sale recently for $199. You gain a second tuner, you don't have to mess with IR cables or an extra box and you gain the ability to record sub-channels.

In case anyone isn't clear, you don't need a HDTV to use a TivoHD.


----------



## magnus

Actually, I believe that it is that easy... to at least provide some sort of support.



bicker said:


> You don't know what you're talking about. If it was "laughably easy" then they actually would have done it. They haven't. QED.


----------



## SDH400

magnus said:


> Don't be confused. I'm stating that my S2 boxes are set to cable (on purpose) so that I can get the guide data and use the RCA DTA800 to get my locals. Do I get the guide data for all the channels? No, but it's better than nothing.
> 
> I am only using OTA... the other cable channels I just remove from my channel list.
> 
> This allows my Tivo to control the box in this manner. Cable set-up.
> 04 --> 04-1
> 08 --> 08-1
> 21 --> 21-1
> 68 --> 68-1
> 
> Dummy satellite (copy HD local channel listing and re-map)
> 041 --> 04-1
> 042 --> 04-2
> 681 --> 68-1
> 682 --> 68-2


One problem with the RCA is (I believe) the lack of 16:9 mode. What I want is the ability to record full 16:9 broadcast and play it back on my HDTV.

The second problem is that the cable channels numbers and OTA channels do not match. So the program guide will be all wrong.

If TiVo cannot come up with a solution. I will have to move to DVD Recorders with digital tuners. Like HDD models from Philips and Magnavox. It is a lose-lose.


----------



## magnus

If you want it to be 16:9 then get a Tivo HD.

You have to be creative.... there is a match... you just have to find it like I did.



SDH400 said:


> One problem with the RCA is (I believe) the lack of 16:9 mode. What I want is the ability to record full 16:9 broadcast and play it back on my HDTV.
> 
> The second problem is that the cable channels numbers and OTA channels do not match. So the program guide will be all wrong.
> 
> If TiVo cannot come up with a solution. I will have to move to DVD Recorders with digital tuners. Like HDD models from Philips and Magnavox. It is a lose-lose.


----------



## Shawn95GT

Well... assuming you can find a lineup I wonder if something like that DVR black box for the big-dish systems would work to accomplish the 'known lineup' to ATSC box translation:

http://www.dvrblackbox.com/

I know 90% of the problem is the lineup though. We need an 'antenna with a box' option .

I ended up going with S3s and a THD to solve it for me.


----------



## magnus

Or a dummy satellite provider that has the locals for HD (digital channels).

Mapped from something like...

04-1 to 041
04-2 to 042
68-2 to 682

The Tivo sends 682 and bam the digital converter changes to 68-2. Then you have guide data and the ability to change the channel with the Tivo. Just assume that it would work with any box that currently has the proper IR codes (so assume an RCA box is an RCA box... etc..).

All server-side, no roll out and I would assume a lot less development time. This could be done and tested within a month.



Shawn95GT said:


> Well... assuming you can find a lineup I wonder if something like that DVR black box for the big-dish systems would work to accomplish the 'known lineup' to ATSC box translation:
> 
> http://www.dvrblackbox.com/
> 
> I know 90% of the problem is the lineup though. We need an 'antenna with a box' option .
> 
> I ended up going with S3s and a THD to solve it for me.


----------



## Shawn95GT

magnus said:


> Or a dummy satellite provider that has the locals for HD (digital channels).
> 
> Mapped from something like...
> 
> 04-1 to 041
> 04-2 to 042
> 68-2 to 682
> 
> The Tivo sends 682 and bam the digital converter changes to 68-2. Then you have guide data and the ability to change the channel with the Tivo. Just assume that it would work with any box that currently has the proper IR codes (so assume an RCA box is an RCA box... etc..).
> 
> All server-side, no roll out and I would assume a lot less development time. This could be done and tested within a month.


That gets back to IR codes.

682 could be 6-82, 68-2. Heck the Voom ATSC boxes don't have a '-' or '.' button. To get 04-2 you tune 4 (4-1 comes up) then hit channel up (4-2 comes up).

This type of behavior is probably why ATSC support is slow to never coming.

I'd think the only way they'd do it would be if they co-branded or certified a specific box, kind of like what they do with the DVR expander.


----------



## magnus

True, but since I am the only one to post their test results (that I know of). Then I can only go with what is working for me. Or just say... Tivo unofficially supports the RCA DTA800... buy other boxes if you want but they are not known to work.

And the Voom box is not that good of an example. However, since you mention it... then just use the cable option that I listed previously.

Think cable when it's not cable and you'll find a very good channel map for the base channels (without the sub channels). 



Shawn95GT said:


> That gets back to IR codes.
> 
> 682 could be 6-82, 68-2. Heck the Voom ATSC boxes don't have a '-' or '.' button. To get 04-2 you tune 4 (4-1 comes up) then hit channel up (4-2 comes up).
> 
> This type of behavior is probably why ATSC support is slow to never coming.
> 
> I'd think the only way they'd do it would be if they co-branded or certified a specific box, kind of like what they do with the DVR expander.


----------



## MickeS

Shawn95GT said:


> Agreed, and at the time it didn't sound like a bad deal. A year later I felt like I'd been had, especially when Lifetime was re-offered for only $100 more than the transfer fee.


I thought the transfer was $199, and the "outright" Lifetime was $399?


----------



## Shawn95GT

MickeS said:


> I thought the transfer was $199, and the "outright" Lifetime was $399?


Goodness... maybe my numbers are all kinds of messed up.

Even at $400 it's a better deal than transferring.

Spend $400 and get 2-300 back on your old box vs 200 out of pocket and old box is worthless. I have 2 of my 3 S2s that were tranferred. I sold one for all of $20 including the Netgear FA120.

The Netgear adapter is worth more than the S2 without service...


----------



## magnus

i would not buy that. it would be overpriced like the expander and would cost as much as getting the tivo hd.

especially when there are solutions that will work... even if you don't get all the sub channels.



Shawn95GT said:


> I'd think the only way they'd do it would be if they co-branded or certified a specific box, kind of like what they do with the DVR expander.


----------



## NotVeryWitty

bicker said:


> You don't know what you're talking about. If it was "laughably easy" then they actually would have done it. They haven't. QED.


Your logic is flawed.

There may be non-technical (i.e., marketing) reasons for not implementing this. If Tivo thought that they would receive more income from forcing OTA users to upgrade than they would lose by having OTA users cancel service and go with a non-Tivo alternative, they may decide to not implement the change even if it *was* "laughably easy".


----------



## MickeS

NotVeryWitty said:


> Your logic is flawed.
> 
> There may be non-technical (i.e., marketing) reasons for not implementing this. If Tivo thought that they would receive more income from forcing OTA users to upgrade than they would lose by having OTA users cancel service and go with a non-Tivo alternative, they may decide to not implement the change even if it *was* "laughably easy".


That's honestly what I'm thinking too. They might want to seize the opportunity to reduce the Series 1 & Series 2 base, and maybe they will instead do some sort of upgrade offer.


----------



## bicker

NotVeryWitty said:


> Your logic is flawed.


It actually isn't. It's very sound. Even if it happened to be easy to implement, my point has been that no one here actually knows that. They're all just making assumptions, perhaps to assuage their wishful thinking.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

magnus said:


> Actually, I believe that it is that easy... to at least provide some sort of support.


This line of thinking in this thread matches up pretty well to the line of thinking in the gudie data for QAM channels threads.

Providing us a manual channel map should be easy, went the thinking. So easy it could be hacked - well the manual mapping hack was tried and given up on as harder than it seemed.

Same here, I think, if a dummy box was laughably easy than why is there no hack for it? These would seem like a perfect kind of thing for the hack community.

You still need to buy service and all that is happening is providing access to something you have the right to access anyhow. So, if this was hacked then there would be no real consequences of broadcasting that hack. Thus the question remains, Why has this not been hacked?


----------



## dswallow

ZeoTiVo said:


> This line of thinking in this thread matches up pretty well to the line of thinking in the gudie data for QAM channels threads.
> 
> Providing us a manual channel map should be easy, went the thinking. So easy it could be hacked - well the manual mapping hack was tried and given up on as harder than it seemed.
> 
> Same here, I think, if a dummy box was laughably easy than why is there no hack for it? These would seem like a perfect kind of thing for the hack community.
> 
> You still need to buy service and all that is happening is providing access to something you have the right to access anyhow. So, if this was hacked then there would be no real consequences of broadcasting that hack. Thus the question remains, Why has this not been hacked?


Because this "hack" not only requires associated guide data to come in with it but also the implementation of an additional IR code when entering channels (the subchannel dash or dot when tuning a specific ATSC subchannel). While providing an IR database for a particular unit might be potentially hackable, getting the TiVo to make use of it in a meaningful way requires modifications to parts of the code elsewhere that aren't as easily accessed by third parties (even though they would be very simply implemented when you have the original source code) as well as getting the ATSC-channel guide data delivered to the unit regularly.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

dswallow said:


> Because this "hack" not only requires associated guide data to come in with it but also the implementation of an additional IR code when entering channels (the subchannel dash or dot when tuning a specific ATSC subchannel). While providing an IR database for a particular unit might be potentially hackable, getting the TiVo to make use of it in a meaningful way requires modifications to parts of the code elsewhere that aren't as easily accessed by third parties (even though they would be very simply implemented when you have the original source code) as well as getting the ATSC-channel guide data delivered to the unit regularly.


part of the hack would be to make use of existing guide data - like Magnus does with his setup.

The part of getting the - to work is probably a big hangup for hackers.

The guide data could be an issue for TiVo as well, in the form of having to pay for it to hit a broader audience of S2 users plus the code there required to process what may be a different format


----------



## BobCamp1

dswallow said:


> Because this "hack" not only requires associated guide data to come in with it but also the implementation of an additional IR code when entering channels (the subchannel dash or dot when tuning a specific ATSC subchannel). While providing an IR database for a particular unit might be potentially hackable, getting the TiVo to make use of it in a meaningful way requires modifications to parts of the code elsewhere that aren't as easily accessed by third parties (even though they would be very simply implemented when you have the original source code) as well as getting the ATSC-channel guide data delivered to the unit regularly.


As far as the hack goes:

The guide data already comes in through the cable/satellite guide data.

You don't need the "-" for most ATSC boxes. Entering in a three digit number already gets interpreted as "12-3". Some of these ATSC boxes have the same codes as cable/satellite boxes - why would they reinvent the wheel?

All that's left is remapping the channel numbers from whatever the cable guide data says to the ATSC numbers. There is already a module that does this.

So you should be able to hack it.

Finally, for all those who said this would be easy for Tivo to support, remember that Tivo gave up fixing the DST problem in the S1s. After someone else figured it out for them, they ended up implementing the hack themselves. This DST change is a simple table or a few lines of code at most, and Tivo said they couldn't do it and they were all set to abandon the S1 users. That is why no one who's been in this forum a long time is holding their breath on the S1/S2/ATSC fix. Tivo has shown they will let customers twist in the wind.


----------



## BobCamp1

ZeoTiVo said:


> Thus the question remains, Why has this not been hacked?


It has been hacked. Magnus hacked it (I'm not confused anymore  ). We are also discussing this in the wrong forum. 

Tivo hackers are generally very reclusive. But after doing some snooping I realized that the hackers have already silently done this. They did it over three years ago when HDTV seriously started rolling out. It is really trivial for them to do this. We non-hackers are so far behind and are now just catching up.

For example, here is an article from a less-reclusive hacker dated October 2004. http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2004/10/14/digital_tv.html?page=1


----------



## classicsat

MighTiVo said:


> 1) The cost has to be low since this is core functionality, the use of an external tuner has been part of TiVo since the first sale.


ATSC box support isn't core support, really. Its support is a bit higher in the software chain.


> 4) Since this is such an easy upgrade to S2


You don't know that. I don't know that. It might be easy, it might be hard.


----------



## classicsat

ZeoTiVo said:


> I will say that the coding is most likely straight forward - the problem is in the number of boxes to support. TiVo may be mulling over one brand but if they do that - they need a partnership with that brand in order to ensure it works well


TiVo's issue, I suspect, is the financial and other impacts of taking personnel off other projects for this one.

I don't think they need to partner with one or a few companies for ATSC box support. They almost all work the same way, so it would be simply a matter of collecting and testing boxes and their IR codes, just like they do for satellite and cable boxes, once they get the "Antenna with box" setup and "xx-x" guide system working.


----------



## classicsat

magnus said:


> Or a dummy satellite provider that has the locals for HD (digital channels).


Enough with that please. TiVo probably doesn't want to do that., it is too "funky" for their general customership to get.

For the customers that know of it, a product like the DVR BlackBox could work.


----------



## Puppy76

bicker said:


> You don't know what you're talking about. If it was "laughably easy" then they actually would have done it. They haven't. QED.





bicker said:


> It actually isn't. It's very sound. Even if it happened to be easy to implement, my point has been that no one here actually knows that. They're all just making assumptions, perhaps to assuage their wishful thinking.


Yes, we do. We know it because TIVO ALREADY DOES THE SAME THING with Satilite support. We also know it because some of us know enough about programing to know how easy something like this is. Like I said earlier, *I* would be capable of doing this, so there's no question a small team at Tivo could get it done. (Except since I wrote that I realized it should be even easier than that, as it's basically just some new IR codes and channel line ups-there may be no real programing involved at all.)

Again, if they don't do it, they're not doing it for strategic reasons-maybe they want to push S3 hardware, maybe they see the market as so small it's not worth putting even a couple of people on it for a few months. Whatever the case, it's not some big technological hurdle.


----------



## rodbac

> You don't know what you're talking about. If it was "laughably easy" then they actually would have done it. They haven't. QED.





> It actually isn't. It's very sound.


Wow.

Off topic, but I hope you don't have any aspirations of making the debate team.


----------



## lessd

Does anybody on this form know how many Series 1 and Series 2 TiVos are used only for OTA use ? If the number was small then TiVo would no incentive to do anything about the upcoming analog switchover. My opinion is that it is small as most TiVo people (not all just most) are into TV and would have TV in their homes by means other than OTA. Should we try a poll ? I don't know if the TiVo software (at the co. itself) has been programed to call out only the OTA TiVos connected to their system, they can look any any single TiVo on the system and tell OTA only but as a group?...I don't know if and why they (TiVo) would put an effort to find out that number in the past.


----------



## Shawn95GT

Don't forget that those doing ATSC now are lieing to their Tivos and telling it they have satellite or even cable to get the lineup info. This will skew the 'OTA only' info for even Tivo.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

BobCamp1 said:


> All that's left is remapping the channel numbers from whatever the cable guide data says to the ATSC numbers. There is already a module that does this.
> 
> So you should be able to hack it.


wow- almost exactly word for word from the QAM mapping threads. Again it was found out that the hack was hard and given up on, at least by the persons posting in those threads.

as for Magnus - did he go in the box and add some process/code to copy the HD channels list or is this something he did in the interface? I have never used sat so not clear on that


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Shawn95GT said:


> Don't forget that those doing ATSC now are lieing to their Tivos and telling it they have satellite or even cable to get the lineup info. This will skew the 'OTA only' info for even Tivo.


right - but then nothing will change for them come the shutdown of analog. In fact TiVo may hope more people do this workaround and the subs stay and TiVo did not spend a dime to keep them.


----------



## NotVeryWitty

bicker said:


> It actually isn't. It's very sound. Even if it happened to be easy to implement, my point has been that no one here actually knows that. They're all just making assumptions, perhaps to assuage their wishful thinking.


(Sorry to continue this, but bicker would never let anyone else get away with bad logic, so I'm not willing to cut him any slack on this.)

That may or may not have been your point, but it isn't what you said.

You made two statements to "prove" your point.

Statement 1: if A, then B
Statement 2: not B
Conclusion: not A

This is the elementary rule of logic called Modus Tollens. This logic works *only* if both statements are true. However, statement 1 is not true. Therefore, the logic to reach your conclusion is flawed.

Note that I am *not* saying that the conclusion is wrong (I agree with you that most of us just don't know if it's "easy" or not).


----------



## BobCamp1

rodbac said:


> Wow.
> 
> Off topic, but I hope you don't have any aspirations of making the debate team.


I don't think a lot of people in this forum would make the debate team. 

If we went back in time when the S2 was being developed and told Tivo to add this feature, it would be trivial. To tell them to do it now introduces a new factor that wasn't present before: resources. Their cost, their availability (both time and knowledge), and someone to manage them. Not just design, but testing, rolling it out, and supporting it. None of these things are trivial.

Somebody in Tivo has or will probably put together a few proposals on how much it would cost to add this feature and/or its variants. Someone else (a VP?) will compare this cost to the expected additional revenue that would be generated and factor things in like customer satisfaction, etc. Then a decision will be made. This process isn't trivial, either.

But as a fallback, this hack is relatively simple to do yourself if you're that worried about it.


----------



## classicsat

lessd said:


> Does anybody on this form know how many Series 1 and Series 2 TiVos are used only for OTA use ?


It has been said before, TiVo knows, and least on units that connect to the service, so will show in their database.


> If the number was small then TiVo would no incentive to do anything about the upcoming analog switchover.


At one degree or another, they would do it for good will.

The other degree they'd have to see what would be the best financial, technical, and PR solution for them, be it add OTA box support to Series 2, or offer a TiVo HD upgrade path (which would surely incur some degree of cost to the customer)


> Should we try a poll ?


No. They have been done before, and are generally not indicative of TiVo's actual user base, only a technically affluent subset.


> I don't know if the TiVo software (at the co. itself) has been programed to call out only the OTA TiVos connected to their system, they can look any any single TiVo on the system and tell OTA only but as a group?...I don't know if and why they (TiVo) would put an effort to find out that number in the past.


They at least, as a group can find out how may TiVos are set up for OTA. I believe they could even find out which specific units are set up for that, and contact the customer for an upgrade offer, if it came to that (I know they did for my older Lifetime unit last fall, for that transfer offer. I believe at the time, I may have had it set up for antenna+Satellite, the satellite and my financial situation why I didn't take them up on the offer).


----------



## BobCamp1

ZeoTiVo said:


> wow- almost exactly word for word from the QAM mapping threads. Again it was found out that the hack was hard and given up on, at least by the persons posting in those threads.
> 
> as for Magnus - did he go in the box and add some process/code to copy the HD channels list or is this something he did in the interface? I have never used sat so not clear on that


The original thread is here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61830

But the files are now downloaded here: http://thomson.tivo.googlepages.com/TivoWebPlus

However, to install TivoWebPlus onto an S1 or S2, the SApper is the easiest tool to use.
http://www.mastersav.com/Tivo_SApper.html

There is a channelmap.itcl file that is part of TivoWebPlus (both old and new) that allows you to manually map your channel lineup. You can either do it at the Tivo or download it to your PC, modify the text file there (beware of CRLF issues), then put the file back onto your Tivo.

Or, you can use this method which doesn't need TivoWebPlus: http://minnie.tuhs.org/twiki/bin/view/Guidedata/ChangeChannelNumber

I haven't tried it myself. Note that every time D* has a lineup change, your changes will be lost. Unless you also hack the Tivo to rerun the script and restore your lineup automatically. The last link I provided tells you how to do this.

The reason D* is used for this trick is because lots of different vendors have made D* receivers, and some of those same companies are also making the ATSC boxes. If the IR codes are the same, then you're all set. Note that D* doesn't carry all the PBS sub-channels yet, but they will soon. Note that Echostar is planning on releasing an ATSC tuner, so in the future E* may work better.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Thnaks BOB - there it is for Series 1 and older 140 or 240 models of Series 2 then that do not need a PROM chip chnage out..

so a Hack has been started but it runs into update guide data problems.


----------



## sparklygurl2007

it has not yet been determined that TiVo will support the converter boxes


----------



## gastrof

ZeoTiVo said:


> Thnaks BOB - there it is for Series 1 and older 140 or 240 models of Series 2 then that do not need a PROM chip chnage out..
> 
> so a Hack has been started but it runs into update guide data problems.


Hey...

Zeo.

Would this hack, as it is, work all right on a Series 1 that's unsubbed and uses no guide data? Only needs to know what channels the ATSC box gets and how to control the box?


----------



## Bryanw20

lessd said:


> Does anybody on this form know how many Series 1 and Series 2 TiVos are used only for OTA use ?


I suppose my number is even smaller, I Use OTA, but still tell Tivo to oder guide for sat because I use a Big Dish to get some channels. So in Tivo's data base I'm not OTA only, yet I get my locals OTA only.


----------



## BobCamp1

gastrof said:


> Hey...
> 
> Zeo.
> 
> Would this hack, as it is, work all right on a Series 1 that's unsubbed and uses no guide data? Only needs to know what channels the ATSC box gets and how to control the box?


If it's unsubbed and uses no guide data, you don't need the hack. You just tell Tivo to record channel "81" if you want to tune to 8-1. The trick is finding the D* receiver or cable box IR codes that are good enough to control the ATSC box.


----------



## BobCamp1

ZeoTiVo said:


> Thnaks BOB - there it is for Series 1 and older 140 or 240 models of Series 2 then that do not need a PROM chip chnage out..
> 
> so a Hack has been started but it runs into update guide data problems.


No problem -- use cron to rerun the script at :24 and :54 each hour. No reboot required and the change is instantaneous. The fourth link I provided, which does it with and without TivoWebPlus, shows how to do this (it's kind of buried in the page, but it's there. Search for "lan N" or "cron"). Why :24 and :54? To account for 5 minutes of pre-show padding.


----------



## magnus

I'm just proposing that if nothing is going to be done.... then at least do this.

If not then Tivo should not be unhappy when I tweak my box to really do this. Since they will be stating that the box is EOL anyway.

I still would like to know how you would know what it is that Tivo wants to do or not.



classicsat said:


> Enough with that please. TiVo probably doesn't want to do that., it is too "funky" for their general customership to get.
> 
> For the customers that know of it, a product like the DVR BlackBox could work.


----------



## magnus

In the true sense of the word... I have not hacked my Tivo (yet).

I have determined that an RCA DT800 would work (in theory) with satellite w/ box. Set to send 3 numbers to converter box (no way to change... unless hacked).

In the following manner..... if Tivo were to make a modification on their end.

Tivo to Converter box
----------------------------
041 04-1
042 04-2
682 68-2

Currently, this is what is working w/ RCA DTA800. Cable w/ box (but only gets the main channels). Set to send 2 numbers to box (can be changed but this works best).

Tivo to Converter box
----------------------------
04 04-1
04 04-1
68 68-1

Find a cable listing that most closely resembles your locals. My zip is no longer accurate when it calls into Tivo. Because the cable provider I found does not provide service in my zip (yet the channels map almost perfectly - except for the sub channels). Think Universe. 

http://tvlistings.aol.com/listings/state/city/provider?zipcode=&elicit=non_auth_location



ZeoTiVo said:


> wow- almost exactly word for word from the QAM mapping threads. Again it was found out that the hack was hard and given up on, at least by the persons posting in those threads.
> 
> as for Magnus - did he go in the box and add some process/code to copy the HD channels list or is this something he did in the interface? I have never used sat so not clear on that


----------



## bicker

rodbac said:


> Wow.


My point was, in both cases you quoted, that the poster was making pronouncements without evidence, so I made the opposite pronouncements without evidence. My point, all along, was that no one who isn't on the project team has any friggen idea whether something is easy or hard. People are just talking about of their... They *want *it to be "easy" -- that's all -- to assuage their frustration, and foster their indignation.


----------



## classicsat

gastrof said:


> Hey...
> 
> Zeo.
> 
> Would this hack, as it is, work all right on a Series 1 that's unsubbed and uses no guide data? Only needs to know what channels the ATSC box gets and how to control the box?


Since you are only manually recording, it is not needed, unless you want a channel ID associated with a manual recording.


----------



## rodbac

> My point was, in both cases you quoted, that the poster was making pronouncements without evidence, so I made the opposite pronouncements without evidence.


Obviously, but that's not what you were being taken to task about.



> My point, all along, was that no one who isn't on the project team has any friggen idea whether something is easy or hard.


We don't really disagree on a certain level but you should also consider that there are many of us who write code for a living who work on things infinitely more complex than this on a daily basis.

IOW, most of this isn't the grand mystery it's being portrayed as, whether we've worked specifically on a Tivo or not.

That said, your point is valid that there could very well be some unique hurdle in this scenario that makes the ease of implementation not so clear-cut, and my faith in the competence of the developers at Tivo inclines me to agree.


----------



## classicsat

magnus said:


> I'm just proposing that if nothing is going to be done.... then at least do this.


I agree, if it is possible to tweak the server backsides to do that and leave it as an unsupported treat for those that know how to do it, or are willing to learn.

I still say though, that TiVo wouldn't want to do that to be the official solution to OTA box support.

I am thinking though, that they essentially relay what they 
get from Tribune's servers, so they (Tribune) would either have to add a satellite lineup that mirrors digital OTA, or TiVo would have to set a proxy trap on their servers, to fake a digital OTA lineup as satellite. 
Either would take a bit of work. Changing the box software might look just as easy.



> If not then Tivo should not be unhappy when I tweak my box to really do this. Since they will be stating that the box is EOL anyway.


Generally they don't mind, as long as you don't "steal" their "service", or violate the copyrights of content creators and distributors.


> I still would like to know how you would know what it is that Tivo wants to do or not.


I don't know actually, but they want to serve the lowest common denominator, and be intuitive for that lowest common denominator of users. Having to choose "satellite" for an antenna setup is simply counter to that. Not to mention what happens when somebody has satellite+antenna, or asks how to get a higher sub-channel.


----------



## atmuscarella

As others have said much of this is speculation. Nothing wrong with that I actually like to speculate - when I do speculate on something it is usually based on my personal knowledge of the issue including historical info. When it comes to TiVo, coding, and the like I have no personal knowledge. So the only thing I have to base my speculation on is history.

So what is TiVo's history when it comes to OTA or OTA+Satellite users? Well back in early 2006 TiVo released their Series 2 DT unit. This unit could have easily supported recording 2 OTA analog channels or 1 OTA air analog channel and 1 satellite channel at a time. What did TiVo chose to do? Not support OTA at all. I am sure this decision made perfect sense to TiVo after all they new: 

They would be releasing the Series 3 that fall
That they would have to disable OTA for new Series 2 DT units made/sold after 3/07 to comply with federal regulations
They were still selling the single tuner Series 2 that would do OTA and that the only other choice OTA users had was a media PC.
Next along comes the Series 3 and then the TiVo HD units, great of OTA only users but not so great for OTA+satellite users because they left out STB support. Again I am sure this made perfect sense to TiVo.

During this same time period dial in users experienced a reduced number of dial in numbers. What did TiVo do if you no longer had a local dial in number to call? Nothing.

So history shows us (and rightly so) that TiVo makes decisions that they think are the best for them even if it means leaving some of their subscriber base without the optimal choses.

So I will speculate that TiVo will do what ever they believe is best financially for TiVo. If this means abandoning support for OTA or OTA+Satellite Series 1 & 2 users then we will be abandoned.

The only real difference now is that we may have more viable options and TiVo may have to factor in actually losing subscribers into their determination. 

Anyone that already has a good PC can easily add dual OTA HD tuners and DVR software to it for $200 (see http://store.snapstream.com/btv-hdhr.html ) so media PCs are actually becoming a viable option for the masses
The Echostar TR-50 DVR may be an acceptable alternative to the TiVo HD.
For OTA+Satellite users the DN VIP 722 provides OTA and satellite support with 3 tuners.
Thanks,


----------



## classicsat

atmuscarella said:


> That they would have to disable OTA for new Series 2 DT units made/sold after 3/07 to comply with federal regulations


That is most likely it. Set the long term function of the product at the outset, to avoid confusion were they to change the function if the physical product mid-stream.



> Anyone that already has a good PC can easily add dual OTA HD tuners and DVR software to it for $200


There is a certain "curve" to that, where only people with a certain technical acuity or affluence will do that.



> For OTA+Satellite users the DN VIP 722 provides OTA and satellite support with 3 tuners.


DirecTV also has their HD-DVR, which has digital OTA suppoer (either direct or with an add-on box, depending on model of DVR).

Neither address Stanadlone satellite users that want to tune digital OTA, if there will be a "backdoor" OTA lineup under satellite.


----------



## bicker

rodbac said:


> We don't really disagree on a certain level but you should also consider that there are many of us who write code for a living who work on things infinitely more complex than this on a daily basis.


Or so you think. Let me "take you to task" for the presumption. 



rodbac said:


> That said, your point is valid that there could very well be some unique hurdle in this scenario that makes the ease of implementation not so clear-cut, and my faith in the competence of the developers at Tivo inclines me to agree.


Indeed. :up:


----------



## Skuits

Hello all, I recently purchased an ATSC tuner (with government coupon)to use with my Tivo S2 and am not able to, as most of you already know!!!

Since there are no IR codes available as of yet to control the Tivo is one problem. The other being is I can't seem to figure out how to interface it with the S2.? I thought it would be as simple as using the A/V input on the Tivo but that's not working for me. I only have "Tivo basic" service, which is free with my particular unit and it doesn't allow me to use two input eg antenna and satelite. I am not sure if this is why I am unable to use the ATSC tuner on the S2 (Toshiba RS TX20).

I've put in a request with Tivo regarding my issue in hopes they would develop the IR codes. I recommend that everyone who using OTB do the same, hopefully they'll hear our requests!!!

If someone can please help me with instructions on how to view the ATSC tuner through the Tivo S2 I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Mark


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Skuits said:


> The other being is I can't seem to figure out how to interface it with the S2.? I thought it would be as simple as using the A/V input on the Tivo but that's not working for me. I only have "Tivo basic" service, which is free with my particular unit and it doesn't allow me to use two input eg antenna and satelite. I am not sure if this is why I am unable to use the ATSC tuner on the S2 (Toshiba RS TX20).


That is why. Only one input on TiVoBasic.
Also I am not sure you can use Antenna and Sat together anyhow.


----------



## Puppy76

You would be able to (and then have to) switch over from it's internal tuner to the external tuner, except of course that right now that won't work at all since Tivo doesn't support them. 

What brand did you get? I have no idea what brand to buy, or where to get them. I went to Best Buy a few months ago and they didn't have ANY. I've got my coupons now, but I don't know where or what to buy.


----------



## Shawn95GT

I think I'm gonna try the RCA boxes for 'dumb luck' IR code support.


----------



## Skuits

Puppy76 said:


> You would be able to (and then have to) switch over from it's internal tuner to the external tuner, except of course that right now that won't work at all since Tivo doesn't support them.
> 
> What brand did you get? I have no idea what brand to buy, or where to get them. I went to Best Buy a few months ago and they didn't have ANY. I've got my coupons now, but I don't know where or what to buy.


I got the Zenith DTT900 from Circuit City. It doesn't have analog pass through though. I understand that some low power stations aren't required to switch, so if you're in that situation you should look for a model that has the bypass. Here's a list, the models with analog pass through are marked with an asterisk.

https://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm

Another issue I have is that I get more channels on analog so using the converter box only limits my OTA viewing. Using only Basic Tivo has limted my viewing options also 

Thanks,
Mark


----------



## davidb4775

That seems to be the rub with next years conversion. It seems to me that you will have to use the TiVo like an old fashion VCR. Assuming OTA reception, cable to the converter. Then cable out from the converter to the TiVo, then cable out from the TiVo to the TV. Set your TV on Ch 3. Add channel three to your TiVo and change to that channel. If you have TiVo basic, I am guessing you have one of the non-tivo units, like the Toshiba. In the Toshiba, you can make manual recordings to channel 3 at xx time until xx time. Problem is you will have to set the channel with the converter to the desired channel. If you want to record three shows from 7-10 on channel 4, you are ok. If, however, your programs are on different channels, you're SOL because the channel on the converter would have to be changed and that sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it. I have HEARD that Echo Star is coming out with a converter (TR-40) link that will have "VCR Auto Tune Timers". That converter MIGHT have the ability to set record times and channels like a VCR. It's still alot of work!

The type of TV (and inout conenctions) will determine if you will be able to watch live TV and record on the TiVo at the same time. Presently, I have the RF cable going to a splitter. One output of the splitter goes to the RF TV input and the other RF antenna goes to the TiVo. The TiVo plugs into my TV via RCA connectors (composite). To watch live TV, I tune to the channel. To view the composite input, my TV makes me change to channel 91.


----------



## Skuits

Well I've gotten the Tivo to change the channels on the Zenith DTT900 using LG IR codes. However the ATSC tuner has dashes in its channel line up, so I am having trouble matching the channel info.

Does anyone have any suggestions for this???

As an example I have NBC on channel 6-1 and the CW on channel 6-2 so basically the Tivo thinks I have two channel 6's. Same program info for both. I can't really type in the correct channel number on the Tivo remote either as it doesn't lineup correctly. I am wondering if answering differently during guided set up would make a difference.

Thanks,
Mark


----------



## magnus

The best method I have found so far for my RCA DTA800.

You have to rerun guided setup. But first you need to pick a zipcode that has att uverse and check to make sure that the channels closely match your locals. 

Choose cable as provider
choose att uverse
choose your set top box
choose 2 digit channels

Once you do this, if it works like my RCA, it will change the channel to 04 which will map to 04-1 on your converter. You won't be able to get the other sub channels like 04-2 or 04-3 for example.

If this works for you (or if it does not) be kind enough to reply with your test results.

Oh, I did not read all the post... if you actually have different affiliates on the sub channels... then it's not going to work well unitl Tivo makes a change.



Skuits said:


> Well I've gotten the Tivo to change the channels on the Zenith DTT900 using LG IR codes. However the ATSC tuner has dashes in its channel line up, so I am having trouble matching the channel info.
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions for this???
> 
> As an example I have NBC on channel 6-1 and the CW on channel 6-2 so basically the Tivo thinks I have two channel 6's. Same program info for both. I can't really type in the correct channel number on the Tivo remote either as it doesn't lineup correctly. I am wondering if answering differently during guided set up would make a difference.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark


----------



## kb7oeb

What manufacturer is listed for your set top box when you finish setting up?


----------



## Skuits

The set top box (ATSC tuner) is made Zenith, I used the LG IR codes to control it. It's frought with issues though. Tivo states they're working on providing the correct codes.

Mark


----------



## gastrof

Skuits said:


> ...Tivo states they're working on providing the correct codes.


That's news to the rest of us.

When did you hear that TiVo was updating the software to control set top digital OTA boxes? (And from who?)


----------



## kb7oeb

Skuits said:


> The set top box (ATSC tuner) is made Zenith, I used the LG IR codes to control it. It's frought with issues though. Tivo states they're working on providing the correct codes.
> 
> Mark


Makes sense, the screen shots of the Zenith box have a nearly identical GUI as the LG HD Tuners that work with tivo


----------



## TiVo Steve

kb7oeb said:


> Makes sense, the screen shots of the Zenith box have a nearly identical GUI as the LG HD Tuners that work with tivo


LG has been making Zenith plasma TVs for years!


----------



## kb7oeb

LG bought Zenith years ago


----------



## Skuits

gastrof said:


> That's news to the rest of us.
> 
> When did you hear that TiVo was updating the software to control set top digital OTA boxes? (And from who?)


At the risk of starting rumors; I sent a private message to another forum user who states he's a Tivo engineer. He states they are aware of the changeover date and are working on a solution for the ATSC tuner interface issue, prior to the switch over date.

Hope that helps,

Mark


----------



## BobCamp1

Skuits said:


> At the risk of starting rumors; I sent a private message to another forum user who states he's a Tivo engineer. He states they are aware of the changeover date and are working on a solution for the ATSC tuner interface issue, prior to the switch over date.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Mark


Plus TivoPony stated this in the "Tivo's downward spiral" thread, post #22 I believe (you may want to skip the rest of that thread though).


----------



## TiVoJerry

Skuits said:


> At the risk of starting rumors; I sent a private message to another forum user who states he's a Tivo engineer. He states they are aware of the changeover date and are working on a solution for the ATSC tuner interface issue, prior to the switch over date.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Mark


Since there's only one TiVo person that fits the bill, let me state right now that the aforementioned person was me. Let me also clarify that my intention was to let you know that we are investigating the issue. *I am not trying to set any expectations *at this point in time by making any statement about what will or won't happen. We're scoping the situation out....that's as far as it goes right now.

We'll be publishing a very short statement to this same effect on our website within the next day or so. It will link from the article titled "What Kind of TV Source Does My TiVo DVR Work With?" once we've gotten a few bugs worked out with the new website design. Once it's published, it will be the page we'd update whenever appropriate.


----------



## bicker

TiVoJerry said:


> we are investigating the issue. *I am not trying to set any expectations *at this point in time by making any statement about what will or won't happen. We're scoping the situation out....that's as far as it goes right now.


Thanks for the clarification.

Folks should therefore expect no support for DTV converters, until TiVo (or Jerry ) says "yes, you can now expect something".


----------



## steve614

TiVoJerry said:


> ...Let me also clarify that my intention was to let you know that we are *investigating the issue*. ... We're scoping the situation out....*that's as far as it goes right now*.


Thanks for investigating this issue. Shows good faith as opposed to doing nothing. :up:
If it turns out supporting converter boxes is impossible, let us know ASAP so we don't waste the coupons on boxes we can't use.


----------



## TiVoJerry

steve614 said:


> Thanks for investigating this issue. Shows good faith as opposed to doing nothing. :up:
> If it turns out supporting converter boxes is impossible, let us know ASAP so we don't waste the coupons on boxes we can't use.


Will do.


----------



## MickeS

bicker said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Folks should therefore expect no support for DTV converters, until TiVo (or Jerry ) says "yes, you can now expect something".


I'd rather hear about some new upgrade program for existing LT subscribers.


----------



## Todd Miller

For what it's worth, I managed to get my Series1 TiVo to work pretty well with a Zenith DTT900 the other day. I did a little write-up on the process, but be forewarned that it does require shell access to the TiVo and utilized TiVoWebPlus. The channel changing is not speedy, but it seems to work well enough for me.


----------



## JanellZ71

I am interested in using the *Digital Stream DTX9900* converter box with either my Series2 or Toshiba Tivo Series2 for OTA reception. Has anyone figured out a workaround solution with the IR blasters and this particular CECB unit? If so, could you post some step-by-step instructions for setup?


----------



## renkablue

LOVE THIS THREAD -cause I have a S2- and I am *not *looking forward to cancelling my subscription in February 2009. I hope the engineers will be able to fix something.


----------



## BobCamp1

If I were you guys, I would wait as long as possible before ordering coupons or buying a box. It may turn out that only SOME of these boxes will be compatible with Tivo.

Besides, if Tivo decides not to support this feature, you OTA users will want to use the coupon with the Echostar TR-50.


----------



## classicsat

BobCamp1 said:


> If I were you guys, I would wait as long as possible before ordering coupons or buying a box. It may turn out that only SOME of these boxes will be compatible with Tivo.


Partial "support" has been demonstrated with some OTA boxes (at least RCA and Zenith) and a cable or satellite lineup.


> Besides, if Tivo decides not to support this feature, you OTA users will want to use the coupon with the Echostar TR-50.


Being that is a DVR, it is ineligible for a coupon discount.

I'd wait a bit, but not too long, and get one of the ones that have the afomentioned demonstrated "support", and use it that way, or make a hardware convertor, to fully change channels using existing cable or satellite guide data.


----------



## fallingwater

If TiVo doesn't enable a completely simple control method not requiring computer or even television skills, it might as well forget it. Most people using Converter Coupons won't have fancy stuff, just an older TiVo, the Converter Box, and most likely a CRT TV!

TiVo's gotta' decide whether to support the mass-market OTA audience or forget it and let it migrate to whereever it will. Echostar (in either its satellite or OTA flavors) or the cable companies will be glad to p/u the slack.


----------



## OTA4EVR

I just got off the phone with Tivo Customer support and was told that in order to get Tivo to recognize the converter box/channels that I just need to run guided set up. I did this last month when I bought and installed the box and Tivo only saw Channel 3, and whatever station the box was tuned to. 

Any updates on a Tivo announcement or any instructions on how to get my Tivo Series 2 to play with the Zenith DTT900?

Thanks!


----------



## JanellZ71

The RjTECH RJ-900ATSC Digital TV Tuner has a serial port (I am not a fan of the IR blasters). However, I do not see any codes for this unit in the Tivo Guided Setup. This is not a coupon-eligible converter box, but if we can get it to play nice with the Series 2, then a problem is solved.


----------



## Adam1115

I have the Insignia converter box, as long as you exclude sub-channels hitting "9" changes the channel to 9-1.

I wonder if any cable box / sat box listed in the S2 will control it...?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

fallingwater said:


> TiVo's gotta' decide whether to support the mass-market OTA audience or forget it and let it migrate to whereever it will. Echostar (in either its satellite or OTA flavors) or the cable companies will be glad to p/u the slack.


the current answer from TiVo on this is buried in another thread(too busy to go find it).
Basically TiVo is looking at this issue and working out if they will add support or not. So the 
good news is there is active work on this issue. 
Bad news is the answer could still go either way


----------



## wmcbrine

JanellZ71: Why is that box not coupon-eligible? It looks like it's limited to standard-def outputs, like a CECB has to be. In fact it looks like it was intended to be a CECB in all respects.


----------



## JanellZ71

Hey wmcbride - I do not know why the RJ-900ATSC is not included on the NTIA CECB list. Subsequently, I have discovered that the *Tivax STB-T9* Set Top Box also has a Serial Port, Smart antenna connector, and is coupon eligible. My ultimate goal is to continue to use my S2 OTA with a converter box that has serial port capability (because I do not like to mess around with the IR blasters). This may be a lot to ask for, but I figure that I still have almost 10 months to find a solution to the problem.


----------



## classicsat

wmcbrine said:


> JanellZ71: Why is that box not coupon-eligible? It looks like it's limited to standard-def outputs, like a CECB has to be. In fact it looks like it was intended to be a CECB in all respects.


I think the fact it tunes QAM might be it, plus that obvious serial port (if they are against CECB rules), and whatever that other thing is (modular jack between the RF jacks and the A/V out).

I doubt the TiVo will control any of those boxes with serial, unless they use a serial protocol TiVo already supports, or TiVo adds the series protocol used (which IMHO will be a fat chance, since it is hard enough to get them to support the boxes to begin with).


----------



## wmcbrine

Serial ports aren't against the rules. I think the modular jack is for a "smart antenna", which is something that's specifically allowed. (The CECBs look to be the first devices that support these, surprisingly enough.)


----------



## kb7oeb

The smart antenna is actually pretty cool and is a good pair with a dvr in areas with lots of multipath. Basically the antenna electronically focuses itself into the best position based on feedback from the STB.


----------



## sopranoiam

When I talked to Technical Support about a week ago, they told me that there was a software update planned to allow my Series 2 to work with one of coupon authorized Tivo boxes and not too worry that it would probably be a separate update in the next couple of months. I use rabbit ears and have an old TV that I bought at a hotel about 20 years ago. The told me the software tweak will recognize the coupon authorized digital converters just like a cable box is recognized on the Tivo now. So I'm not too worried...I got my coupons already, just need to shop. I can't think that if Tivo wants to keep current customers they wouldn't deal with this....


----------



## TiVoJerry

sopranoiam said:


> When I talked to Technical Support about a week ago, they told me that there was a software update planned to allow my Series 2 to work with one of coupon authorized Tivo boxes and not too worry that it would probably be a separate update in the next couple of months. I use rabbit ears and have an old TV that I bought at a hotel about 20 years ago. The told me the software tweak will recognize the coupon authorized digital converters just like a cable box is recognized on the Tivo now. So I'm not too worried...I got my coupons already, just need to shop. I can't think that if Tivo wants to keep current customers they wouldn't deal with this....


Would you mind sending me a Private Message with your case and contact information? I'd seriously like to know what agent is making speculation of this nature when we've given them no different guidance than I've given in this thread.


----------



## rmorton0573

I just found this article it's a couple of weeks old, and sorry if it has been posted before, but it does appear some people with Basic Cable will be affected also, I knew it was going to happen but I did not think as early as the 2009 switch

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080411/ap_on_go_ot/digital_tv_cable_2;_ylt=ArGL02eLbDv5FTuaSh3ZsJQSMZA5


----------



## Shawn95GT

rmorton0573 said:


> I just found this article it's a couple of weeks old, and sorry if it has been posted before, but it does appear some people with Basic Cable will be affected also, I knew it was going to happen but I did not think as early as the 2009 switch
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080411/ap_on_go_ot/digital_tv_cable_2;_ylt=ArGL02eLbDv5FTuaSh3ZsJQSMZA5


Wow, 'King' from the cable company is confused.

Shawn


----------



## dswallow

Shawn95GT said:


> Wow, 'King' from the cable company is confused.
> 
> Shawn


No, not really. First it appears he was granted a variance of some sort... that should be something we can check online. I remember coming across a database of such things before. The rules for small/tiny cable systems can be quite different than for the major ones, too.

Then the article mentions how the cable companies are apparently interpreting the FCC ruling about costs passed on to customers going all digital -- that it's the headend/providing the signals that can't be "passed on" but converter rental costs can. I think that's a bit on the bogus side; though I suppose one can interpret such language either way, depending on your particular desire to read it a particular way -- yet another bad/unclear rule/law I suppose.

Though ultimately it is the cable companies decision to kill off their own analog signals; they're certainly not "forced" to.


----------



## Shawn95GT

It seems to me that he's confusing the off-air digital mandate and his cable system going digital.

Of course on the head end he'd need some ATSC tuners and I'm sure it isn't as simple as him driving to Walmart and picking up a dozen $40 boxes for him to have a robust solution.

It isn't really any different then him adding a channel that he'd normally get via satellite.


----------



## Jim5506

I have not read the entire thread, but with the recent upgrade to 9.3, my TiVo Series 2 Model 649 now tunes to channel 011-01 on my Dish Network ViP211 when I input 11 in to the remote (It tunes all the digital channels). However, my Series 2 Model 540 which is connected to my Dish Network ViP622 does not do this.

Maybe I need to run the setup again on my 540 and see if it will pick up the digital channels.


----------



## Shawn95GT

Does it actually enter 011-01 keypresses or does '011'/'11' get passed to the 211 and it knows you meant 011-01?


----------



## Jim5506

I press 11 on the TiVo remote and the TiVo sends 011-01 to my Dish box.


----------



## loubob57

I guess I've decided to use my coupons for the Zenith DTT900. Looks to be available from Rat Shack and Circuit City, $60 both places. I'll be able to use it right away for the bedroom TV since it has no TiVo connected.

I've got about a month left before my coupons expire. But this box appears to be the one that is recommended most. The Insignia from Best Buy is identical, but so is the price.


----------



## OTA4EVR

loubob57 said:


> I guess I've decided to use my coupons for the Zenith DTT900. Looks to be available from Rat Shack and Circuit City, $60 both places. I'll be able to use it right away for the bedroom TV since it has no TiVo connected.
> 
> I've got about a month left before my coupons expire. But this box appears to be the one that is recommended most. The Insignia from Best Buy is identical, but so is the price.


I've had the DTT900 for over a month and it works fine. Good choice, with the main discriminator at this price level being a full function remote that includes volume/mute - don't need to use the TV's remote at all! Enjoy!!


----------



## GT1Boy

For those of you who might missed this, there are some people reporting success with a workaround (credit goes to magnus) to control the RCA, Channel Master CM-7000, and Zenith/Insignia CACBs with their SD OTA only TiVos in this thread: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=379790

Basically, you need to find a cable lineup (http://tvlistings.aol.com) with channel numbers that match the OTA analog channel numbers. Usually the VHF channels match but UHF do not. If AT&T Uverse is available it seems to be the one that most often matches with all/most channels. I entered zip codes for small towns on the outskirts of the Portland, OR metro area where I live until I finally found a good lineup.

Connect your CACB to TiVo with the IR Blaster and rerun Guided Setup. Use the zip code and cable provider you found with the matching channel lineup. Select cable with external cable box and choose single digit channel changng (no leading zeros). Choose RCA for the RCA box, Pioneer for the Channel Master CM-7000, and any manufacturer for the Zenith/Insignia. During testing, the RCA and CM boxes should change channels properly. The Zenith/Insignia boxes will not, but tell the TiVo that it is. When guided setup is done, for the Zenith/Insignia boxes, go to Settings, Channels, Channel Changing, Advanced options, and set the IR code to 10075 A,B or C and it should now change channels.

Unfortunately you won't be able to tune subchannels because the S2 guide data doesn't include them. But this is a good workaround for most people until/if any of the converter boxes are officially supported. Many of us initially tried to use the DirecTV lineup since all channels # match the analog OTA channel #s. However, the advanced options for Channel Changing for satellite boxes on the TiVos did not allow anything but 3 digit channel changing via IR blaster and the leading zeros caused the converters to not change channels properly.

I just noticed that Magnus mentioned it earlier in this thread also, but I thought I'd summarize the settings used and results.


----------



## Jim5506

Shawn95GT said:


> Does it actually enter 011-01 keypresses or does '011'/'11' get passed to the 211 and it knows you meant 011-01?


I just figured out why it works - I had the XX-00 channels locked and had the locked channels hidden on my Dish Network ViP 211, so when the TiVo asked for channel 11, the 211 could not go to 11-00 it went to the next channel which is 11-01. I discovered it when I unhid the locked channels and it started going to the XX-00 channel.


----------



## larkor

Check this out.
http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/setupmytivo/Digitalantennasupport.html


----------



## kb7oeb

Kudos to Tivo for the planned support. I'm curious how many people currently show up as satellite or cable subs because they are using those lineups as a work around.


----------



## MickeS

larkor said:


> Check this out.
> http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/setupmytivo/Digitalantennasupport.html


Good to see something official, although I would have a preferred a generous upgrade program instead. 

I will wait and see which converters they support until I buy. I'll suck up the $40 if I have to.


----------



## magnus

Count me if for 2 of those. 



kb7oeb said:


> Kudos to Tivo for the planned support. I'm curious how many people currently show up as satellite or cable subs because they are using those lineups as a work around.


----------



## Adam1115

larkor said:


> Check this out.
> http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/setupmytivo/Digitalantennasupport.html


What the heck is an "ATSC HD Antenna"...?


----------



## MickeS

Adam1115 said:


> What the heck is an "ATSC HD Antenna"...?


Where do you see that? I can't find it.
I think they're just trying to level with the know-nothing consumers. That's how antennas seem to be sold these days (even though it's the same old plain antenna as before).


----------



## kagi.anirik

Can't wait until the actual update comes down the pipe, as I'd love to record some of the subchannels as well, particularly PBS.

All in all, the RCA DTA800 is working fantastic for me; just remember to turn off the auto-shutoff, stick the IR blasters onto it, and you're good to go. Sickening that I'm able to record better quality in an industrial building than at home with cable, but hey, it's how it works.

For those in the Los Angeles area, using the RCA, zip code is 90001, AT&T Uverse cable, RCA cable box, use the guided setup and select a single zero before the channel number for the 2-9 channels. Now I just need to figure out where to get a 'smart antenna.'


----------



## Adam1115

MickeS said:


> Where do you see that? I can't find it.
> I think they're just trying to level with the know-nothing consumers. That's how antennas seem to be sold these days (even though it's the same old plain antenna as before).


When I went to the page last night it said:



> Support Article
> 
> Digital antenna support
> 45-16-61 Search Reference Number
> Print this page
> 
> TiVo Series2 DVRs do not support the use of HD (ATSC) antennas at this time.
> 
> We are actively investigating support of this technology, so please check this page regularly for updates.
> 
> Print this page Back to top Support home


I didn't know what the heck an HD (ATSC) antenna was.

I see that the changed the page.


----------



## fangjun

Whittaker,

You keep saying the following. I just don't understand.



Whittaker said:


> I recorded from a Samsung DTB-H260F external ATSC tuner by way of the RCA input jacks, with the TiVo tuner set to channel zero and a manual record of "showcases", without any problems.
> 
> Just for your information. What I did is.
> 
> 1. Feed video signal from DTB-H260F to Tivo
> 2. Setup schedule on DTB-H260F to match the recording schedule of Tivo.
> 
> This is still manually process. But all the recordings show up in "Now Playing" list.
> 
> Would this approach be better?


----------



## Puppy76

steve614 said:


> Thanks for investigating this issue. Shows good faith as opposed to doing nothing. :up:
> If it turns out supporting converter boxes is impossible, let us know ASAP so we don't waste the coupons on boxes we can't use.


It's absolutely possible, just an issue of whether they'll do it (they might not think it's worth the development time or whatever).



kb7oeb said:


> The smart antenna is actually pretty cool and is a good pair with a dvr in areas with lots of multipath. Basically the antenna electronically focuses itself into the best position based on feedback from the STB.


I'd never heard of a "smart antenna". That sounds really awesome. I've thought for ages that here in the 21st century we ought to be able to build a better antenna. Hopefully if it works lots of TVs, etc. will start supporting it.



loubob57 said:


> I guess I've decided to use my coupons for the Zenith DTT900. Looks to be available from Rat Shack and Circuit City, $60 both places. I'll be able to use it right away for the bedroom TV since it has no TiVo connected.
> 
> I've got about a month left before my coupons expire. But this box appears to be the one that is recommended most. The Insignia from Best Buy is identical, but so is the price.


Where can we get more info on what to buy? I was going to head over to Best Buy and see what they have tonight. I was hoping to find the Magnavox model, as I guess it's supposed to be a good tuner, and Phillips is a real brand at least (even though it's not really made by them).



kb7oeb said:


> Kudos to Tivo for the planned support. I'm curious how many people currently show up as satellite or cable subs because they are using those lineups as a work around.


They DON'T have planned support. They've specifically said they're looking in to the issue and have NOT promised anything.


----------



## wmcbrine

Puppy76 said:


> They DON'T have planned support. They've specifically said they're looking in to the issue and have NOT promised anything.


You're not up to date. Look at post #294, above.



TiVo said:


> TiVo is currently working on a free software update scheduled for release in the Summer of 2008 which will enable most Series2 DVRs* to function with the new converter boxes.


----------



## b_scott

RoyK said:


> What public wrath? The average person has no idea that a switchover is in the plans and they won't even notice if its delayed. The wrath will be loudly expressed when the switchover is widely publicized in the few weeks just before it occurs.


i don't think this is true. almost every J6P i've talked to has seen the commercials and knows it's coming. the thing they DON'T understand is if they're affected and what they need to do. most think they have to buy a new TV, but they don't. only if they only use antenna. and even then only if they don't want to use the converter box.


----------



## SMWinnie

OK, now I'm scratching my head. I can't figure out why a 540x will work with a CECB but a 542x won't.

From TiVo's "Digital antenna support" webpage:
"Series2 DVRs with either a 649 (Dual Tuner) or a 542 prefix, are only intended to work with cable and satellite and this functionality will remain unchanged. No additional functionality enabling these DVRs to receive a digital antenna signal will be added by the software update."

As I understand it, the 649 and 542 have been sold without an NTSC tuner due to (1) no ATSC tuner and (2) the no-NTSC-without-ATSC mandate. But for *any* Series2, using a CECB (or other converter box) requires blaster control of an external box and composite/S-video/RF-in input. In this context, what's hamstrung about a 649DT or 542?

(No skin off my back...I have a THD and a 540x. I am curious, though.)


----------



## MickeS

SMWinnie said:


> OK, now I'm scratching my head. I can't figure out why a 540x will work with a CECB but a 542x won't.
> 
> From TiVo's "Digital antenna support" webpage:
> "Series2 DVRs with either a 649 (Dual Tuner) or a 542 prefix, are only intended to work with cable and satellite and this functionality will remain unchanged. No additional functionality enabling these DVRs to receive a digital antenna signal will be added by the software update."
> 
> As I understand it, the 649 and 542 have been sold without an NTSC tuner due to (1) no ATSC tuner and (2) the no-NTSC-without-ATSC mandate. But for *any* Series2, using a CECB (or other converter box) requires blaster control of an external box and composite/S-video/RF-in input. In this context, what's hamstrung about a 649DT or 542?
> 
> (No skin off my back...I have a THD and a 540x. I am curious, though.)


It might just be a policy issue. Since they are not meant for OTA, there is no need to add additional costs for support and development to assure compatibility with OTA converter boxes.
They might also have some special codes for disabling OTA guide data.

Basically, I'm guessing they want to minimize costs by not messing with something unless they have to, and for these models they don't have to.


----------



## Puppy76

wmcbrine said:


> You're not up to date. Look at post #294, above.


Ooooh, nice! Well then I can keep using my Tivo 'till it dies I guess 



SMWinnie said:


> OK, now I'm scratching my head. I can't figure out why a 540x will work with a CECB but a 542x won't.
> 
> ...





MickeS said:


> It might just be a policy issue. Since they are not meant for OTA, there is no need to add additional costs for support and development to assure compatibility with OTA converter boxes.
> They might also have some special codes for disabling OTA guide data.
> 
> Basically, I'm guessing they want to minimize costs by not messing with something unless they have to, and for these models they don't have to.


It's too bad, because that dual tuner Series 2 would be really awesome...of course it wouldn't actually work with two tuners, so I guess not that awesome...

From everything I've read, Series 3 just isn't up to par yet, with weird sync issues, show transfer issues, etc. (plus tiny internal drives), where I'd feel more comfortable using a PC based DVR or a Series 2...if they had more tuners.


----------



## wmcbrine

Puppy76 said:


> From everything I've read, Series 3 just isn't up to par yet, with weird sync issues, show transfer issues, etc. (plus tiny internal drives),


"Weird sync issues"? No idea what you mean, although audio and video can (rarely) get out of sync with any digital broadcast (i.e., you'd see the same thing with any equipment). "Tiny internal drives"? No, they're much larger than those in other models of TiVo. (But of course, HD recordings take up more space.) "Show transfer issues"? If you mean, some shows can't be transferred because of DRM, yeah. That doesn't apply to broadcast channels, though, only cable. Nor is it an error, or something that will change in the future.


----------



## MickeS

Puppy76 said:


> From everything I've read, Series 3 just isn't up to par yet, with weird sync issues, show transfer issues, etc. (plus tiny internal drives), where I'd feel more comfortable using a PC based DVR or a Series 2...if they had more tuners.


I use a Series 3 (the "original", not TiVoHD) for OTA only. It runs like clockwork. I would not want to replace it with a PC.


----------



## Puppy76

Well, everything I've read on here complains of all those issues, that it just doesn't work as reliably as Series 2. When I've asked if things are straightened out yet, I either get no response, or tons more complaints along those lines.

I actually had an S3 last year briefly, but it didn't work right so I sent it back.


----------



## Adam1115

Puppy76 said:


> Well, everything I've read on here complains of all those issues, that it just doesn't work as reliably as Series 2. When I've asked if things are straightened out yet, I either get no response, or tons more complaints along those lines.
> 
> I actually had an S3 last year briefly, but it didn't work right so I sent it back.


My series 3 has been just as reliable as my series 2, and much faster.


----------



## Puppy76

Adam1115 said:


> My series 3 has been just as reliable as my series 2, and much faster.


How are it's transfers to PC?


----------



## friske44

I'm fairly new to the TiVo world. I have a Humax DVD burner series 2 TiVo that I just subscribed. I am able to use it through the Insignia® - Digital-to-Analog Converter (Model NS-DXA1) on the IR code 10075 A. In order to change channels I programed only the .1 subchannels of each station (4.1, 5.1, 7.1, ect...). Here's a problem I just discovered though....

If I'm on the channel I'm going to record and it starts recording, it switches
into the next SUBchannel. Example: On channel 13 last night (13.1)
subchannel. At 8pm for American Idol it switched it to 13.2 (fox
weather). After 4 minutes of recording I checked and changed it thank
God. So I went to watch a recorded show on Tivo and then at 9pm it
switched back to 13.2 instead of starting to record Hell's Kitchen which
was on the same channel at 9pm. I don't have the subchannels available when flipping through the up and down buttons, but I do know you can still
punch them in through the key pad.

Anyone else have this problem?? Is there a way to completely take off the extra subchannels off my Insignia converter box so the tivo doesn't get confused?

My exact tivo is a TiVo Series2 40-Hour DVR DVD Recorder by Humax 071606 DVD RECORDER W/ TI by Humax 071606 DVD RECORDER W/ TI. Tivo says that if it is a 649 (Dual Tuner) or has a 542 prefix that the new software won't work with it? How do I know if mine is a 649 Dual tuner or has a 542 prefix?

Thanks to anybody who might have some of these answers. Again, I'm pretty new with all this stuff.


----------



## scandia101

friske44 said:


> My exact tivo is a TiVo Series2 40-Hour DVR DVD Recorder by Humax 071606 DVD RECORDER W/ TI by Humax 071606 DVD RECORDER W/ TI. Tivo says that if it is a 649 (Dual Tuner) or has a 542 prefix that the new software won't work with it? How do I know if mine is a 649 Dual tuner or has a 542 prefix?
> 
> Thanks to anybody who might have some of these answers. Again, I'm pretty new with all this stuff.


Does your Tivo have two tuners? - No. Then it's not a dual tuner
Does your tivo model number begin with 542? - No. Then it's not a 542


----------



## CuriousMark

Your TiVo is a 595. As of yet, the software you were told about does not exist. You are using a workaround that will not be needed once software becomes available. At that point, your problem will probably disappear.

Last I heard, reading posts here, was that TiVo was still in the thinking stages on this subject and had not announced whether or not they were going to actually provide any software for this. Has that changed? [Edit] Ah yes it did, as posted in #294 above. Cool![/Edit]


----------



## nirisahn

OK. I read the link in post #294. Basically, nothing's changed. The S2DT will no longer be a dual tuner after the change because the second tuner will never work with the digital signal or the converter box. I have cable on both of my tivos, so I'm losing the ability to record one signal stream.

My computer has the ability to record a digital tv signal, so I guess I better start experimenting with that!


----------



## Puppy76

nirisahn said:


> OK. I read the link in post #294. Basically, nothing's changed. The S2DT will no longer be a dual tuner after the change because the second tuner will never work with the digital signal or the converter box. I have cable on both of my tivos, so I'm losing the ability to record one signal stream.


You're not losing anything. The dual tuner model isn't affected by this change at all, and won't receive this update.

The only reason it would only be able to record from one source is if your cable company requires you to use a converter box and shuts off traditional cable (which has nothing at all to do with the NTSC shutoff coming next year).


----------



## nirisahn

Puppy76 said:


> You're not losing anything. The dual tuner model isn't affected by this change at all, and won't receive this update.
> 
> The only reason it would only be able to record from one source is if your cable company requires you to use a converter box and shuts off traditional cable (which has nothing at all to do with the NTSC shutoff coming next year).


But the second input is analog only and cannot control a box to change channels. So, unless my cable company chooses to continue carrying an analog signal, I can't use the second input. Unless there's something I'm not understanding about the way an S2DT works?


----------



## Puppy76

nirisahn said:


> But the second input is analog only and cannot control a box to change channels. So, unless my cable company chooses to continue carrying an analog signal, I can't use the second input. Unless there's something I'm not understanding about the way an S2DT works?


Right, but that has nothing at all to do with the shut off next year (what this thread is about in other words). You should be able to continue using both tuners for quite a while longer.


----------



## gastrof

Puppy76 said:


> ...You should be able to continue using both tuners for quite a while longer.


NOT IF HIS CABLE COMPANY DISCONTINUES ANALOG SERVICE, as he said.

Granted, the thread is about OverTheAir TV, not cable.


----------



## gastrof

friske44 said:


> I'm fairly new to the TiVo world. I have a Humax DVD burner series 2 TiVo that I just subscribed. I am able to use it through the Insignia® - Digital-to-Analog Converter (Model NS-DXA1) on the IR code 10075 A. In order to change channels I programed only the .1 subchannels of each station (4.1, 5.1, 7.1, ect...). Here's a problem I just discovered though....
> 
> If I'm on the channel I'm going to record and it starts recording, it switches
> into the next SUBchannel. Example: On channel 13 last night (13.1)
> subchannel. At 8pm for American Idol it switched it to 13.2 (fox
> weather). After 4 minutes of recording I checked and changed it thank
> God. So I went to watch a recorded show on Tivo and then at 9pm it
> switched back to 13.2 instead of starting to record Hell's Kitchen which
> was on the same channel at 9pm. I don't have the subchannels available when flipping through the up and down buttons, but I do know you can still
> punch them in through the key pad.
> 
> Anyone else have this problem?? Is there a way to completely take off the extra subchannels off my Insignia converter box so the tivo doesn't get confused?...


This sounds like a problem with how your digital converter box works, rather than the way the TiVo works.

Most likely, if you used the converter's own remote and punched in the number of the channel you're already tuned to, it'd also cause the box to kick over to the next subchannel.

Suggestion?

Test drive a different brand of converter box and see if it does the same thing. Might not.


----------



## bicker

Puppy76 said:


> How are it's transfers to PC?


My transfers to PC are fine, but I cannot transfer HD recordings back to the TiVo S3. :shrug:


----------



## Shawn95GT

bicker said:


> My transfers to PC are fine, but I cannot transfer HD recordings back to the TiVo S3. :shrug:


I've been able too .

The weirdity I see is is I convert a SD AVI to MPG I have to encode the pillar box as the Tivo treats it like HD content (locks out aspect button).

Shawn


----------



## Puppy76

gastrof said:


> NOT IF HIS CABLE COMPANY DISCONTINUES ANALOG SERVICE, as he said.
> 
> Granted, the thread is about OverTheAir TV, not cable.


But they can't until what, 2011 or something like that? Not sure if that means they can stop it, but provide you with a converter box, but either way it's not related to the cut off next year.



bicker said:


> My transfers to PC are fine, but I cannot transfer HD recordings back to the TiVo S3. :shrug:


Do you use it pretty frequently, and no screw-ups? That's good to hear, because I've read a lot of negative stuff about that, and it's critical to me. My Series 2 started out somewhat flaky though too (although never quite as bad as some of the stories I've read about the S3). I think it may have been the 9.x software (if I'm thinking of the right version number) that finally seems to have fixed it for me.


----------



## bicker

Puppy76 said:


> But they can't until what, 2011 or something like that?


Sure they can. There are two options the 2012-related regulation offers: The MSO can provide analog signals across the cable, or the MSO can provide digital signals across the cable and offer converter boxes (included in the service fee, or with a separate rental fee) with analog outputs.


----------



## Puppy76

Okay, that's what I was thinking, but still, this has nothing to do with this thread. If you have cable, you're not affected by the 2009 cut off (and I suspect most cable companies are going to leave analog running for years, although I could be wrong since I know they'll want to save as much bandwidth as they can).


----------



## Budget_HT

Puppy76 said:


> Okay, that's what I was thinking, but still, this has nothing to do with this thread. If you have cable, you're not affected by the 2009 cut off (and I suspect most cable companies are going to leave analog running for years, although I could be wrong since I know they'll want to save as much bandwidth as they can).


I think the open question is how much analog remains in service on the cable system. I suspect that the quantity of analog channels will shrink over time rather than all at once. Time will tell.


----------



## bicker

However, it is becoming more likely to shrink in significant steps (60 to 30 to 0) rather than continue to shrink gradually as it has been doing in many areas (70 to 65 to 63 to 60).


----------



## TiVoJerry

You might want to check out this post by TiVoPony. It gives guidance on how you might be able to join in on the testing.


----------



## cia_viewer

Friday 13 June, I spent about 6 hours and off and on time with several very courteous and very patient TiVo Technical Support Agents. They admitted that working with a CECB was covering new ground.
The goal was to get my CECB (Zenith DTT900) and TiVo Series 2 DVR (with IR Blaster) working together.

My antenna COAX was connected to the CECB (instead of directly to TiVo).
The CECB was connected with RF COAX and composite (r/w/y) to the TiVo.
The TiVo remained connected to my TV with RF COAX and composite (r/w/y).
The IR Blaster was plugged into TiVo IR Output and positioned in front of the CECB IR Sensor.

With the TV still set at Ch3 and the TiVo also set to Ch3, I was able to view 'Live TV' by selecting Digital Channels with the CECB Remote Control.
The TiVo Remote could adjust the TV Volume as usual. I never saw any indication that the IR Blaster communicated any signals to the CECB.

At the end of the six hours, I spoke with a supervisor. I told him his agents were very courteous and very patient. He told me that TiVo could not work with any of the CECBs. He also said the that sometime this summer TiVo software will be updated to support 'all of the CECBs'. I told him the TiVo OTA community felt an urgency to know which CECBs could work best with TiVo.
I have not, as yet, received an email confirming his statements.

This is the longest period I have had the Zenith DTT900 powered up. It was just a little warm. I think it is a good thermal design.


----------



## gastrof

And you posted this.....

WHY?

We all know that TiVo has NEVER been able to work with such boxes, because they never existed until now.

We also know that the TiVo website says they'll be upgrading most of the Series 2 TiVos to work with such boxes.

What I'm surprised at is that you even tried it now, since using a set top digital OverTheAir tuner isn't one of the setup options for a TiVo....yet.

Didn't the fact your Guided Setup didn't offer such to you as an option tell you something?


----------



## dpecs

My Zenith works great with Tivo. I did the workaround mentioned and now I have full capability due to signing up for the beta testing.


----------



## cia_viewer

dpecs said:


> My Zenith works great with Tivo. I did the workaround mentioned and now I have full capability due to signing up for the beta testing.


I signed up for Beta Testing, but I guess they did not need any more. I hope it goes well so we all can benefit.


----------



## steve614

dpecs said:


> My Zenith works great with Tivo. I did the workaround mentioned and now I have full capability *due to signing up for the beta testing.*


Umm... Have you been accepted?


----------



## TiVoJerry

cia_viewer said:


> Friday 13 June, I spent about 6 hours and off and on time with several very courteous and very patient TiVo Technical Support Agents. They admitted that working with a CECB was covering new ground.
> The goal was to get my CECB (Zenith DTT900) and TiVo Series 2 DVR (with IR Blaster) working together.
> 
> My antenna COAX was connected to the CECB (instead of directly to TiVo).
> The CECB was connected with RF COAX and composite (r/w/y) to the TiVo.
> The TiVo remained connected to my TV with RF COAX and composite (r/w/y).
> The IR Blaster was plugged into TiVo IR Output and positioned in front of the CECB IR Sensor.
> 
> With the TV still set at Ch3 and the TiVo also set to Ch3, I was able to view 'Live TV' by selecting Digital Channels with the CECB Remote Control.
> The TiVo Remote could adjust the TV Volume as usual. I never saw any indication that the IR Blaster communicated any signals to the CECB.
> 
> At the end of the six hours, I spoke with a supervisor. I told him his agents were very courteous and very patient. He told me that TiVo could not work with any of the CECBs. He also said the that sometime this summer TiVo software will be updated to support 'all of the CECBs'. I told him the TiVo OTA community felt an urgency to know which CECBs could work best with TiVo.
> I have not, as yet, received an email confirming his statements.
> 
> This is the longest period I have had the Zenith DTT900 powered up. It was just a little warm. I think it is a good thermal design.


I would ask anyone else who is looking to have digital antenna support to please sit tight and not tie up my agents for 6 hours. They will not be able to do anything until we have software to release.


----------



## cia_viewer

TiVoJerry said:


> I would ask anyone else who is looking to have digital antenna support to please sit tight and not tie up my agents for 6 hours. They will not be able to do anything until we have software to release.


I am sorry, but your well qualified agents did not have that information either. They did put me on hold, to consult, several times, so it would seem the ones they consulted with were not informed of this either.

Unfortunately, this whole converter box 'deal' has brought out less than admirable qualities in a lot of different people and organizations.

I would hope that you and the rest of TiVo management might find some form of regular 'progress reports' that you can share with these public forums to keep us reassured that solutions are coming.

The biggest question most of us have had is: Which CECBs will be more likely to work best with TiVo?

My two coupons are already used up on a Zenith DTT901 and a Magnavox TB100MG9.


----------



## TiVoJerry

The information you have requested is already in the process of being written and reviewed by cross functional teams. We're almost there, please be patient.

Our agents only have the information that is available in our online knowledge article. 
http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/howto/Digital_antenna_support.html
That said, not all of them are familiar with it yet. We're in the process of bringing up new centers and that always comes with growing pains.

I'm sorry if you feel my response was less than admirable. I figured that since you were on this forum, you already had all of the available information but were pressing to find a workaround sooner than when the SW update became available.


----------



## magnus

I've already given this user the workaround... in this thread. They just need to be patient.

I'll admit that I was a little concerned when I had called a while back and CSR told me to get satellite or cable (and that Tivo was not going to support OTA in the future).

However, I did post that Tivo is working on the solution when I found that the CSR was misinformed.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=379790


----------



## cia_viewer

TiVoJerry said:


> The information you have requested is already in the process of being written and reviewed by cross functional teams. We're almost there, please be patient.
> 
> Our agents only have the information that is available in our online knowledge article.
> http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/howto/Digital_antenna_support.html
> That said, not all of them are familiar with it yet. We're in the process of bringing up new centers and that always comes with growing pains.
> 
> I'm sorry if you feel my response was less than admirable. I figured that since you were on this forum, you already had all of the available information but were pressing to find a workaround sooner than when the SW update became available.


Thank you.

I was not referring to you.

I follow at least a half dozen AVS forums as well as a couple TiVo forums. I have seen several rants and talk of unethical behavior with the CECBs.


----------



## cia_viewer

magnus said:


> I've already given this user the workaround... in this thread. They just need to be patient.
> 
> I'll admit that I was a little concerned when I had called a while back and CSR told me to get satellite or cable (and that Tivo was not going to support OTA in the future).
> 
> However, I did post that Tivo is working on the solution when I found that the CSR was misinformed.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=379790


ATT/Uni...? is not available in the Denver Broadcast area.

I wish there was a mechanism to change our vote in the poll. 
The TR-40/TVPal seems like vapor ware and I like my Zenith DTT901.


----------



## rainbow

cia_viewer said:


> .............................
> .This is the longest period I have had the Zenith DTT900 powered up. It was just a little warm. I think it is a good thermal design.


I, for 1, appreciated this post. It has been a very confusing time. The coupons, once you order them, are only good for 90 days. So that makes time of the essence.

I have spent alot of time on these forums, and after a bit, I end up getting more and more confused about this issue. I was/am aware there are no clear cut answers, but this post helps in my making a somewhat informed decision, based on the fact that I have a 90-day window to do something w/the coupons that I now have received.

I actually did not want to wait too long to get mine since there is a limited supply (supposedly), and when that supply is gone, one would be SOL for that credit.

I had already decided, based on a few previous posts, to go with the Zenith (subject to my finding it in stock). But, again, I appreciate that cia_viewer posted his experience.


----------



## magnus

Ok, but I'm sure that there has to be some cable provider in your area that maps fairly close to OTA channels.



cia_viewer said:


> ATT/Uni...? is not available in the Denver Broadcast area.
> 
> I wish there was a mechanism to change our vote in the poll.
> The TR-40/TVPal seems like vapor ware and I like my Zenith DTT901.


----------



## cia_viewer

magnus said:


> Ok, but I'm sure that there has to be some cable provider in your area that maps fairly close to OTA channels.


I have ZERO experience with other than OTA TV.

I tried http://tvlistings.aol.com/listings/...andard?zipcode=75104&elicit=location&tab=grid

This is their Broadcast lineup:
(*) Broadcast, LONGMONT, CO
2 KWGN
4 KCNC
6 KRMA
7 KMGH
9 KUSA
12 KBDI
14 KTFD
16 KUSADT
17 KMGHDT
18 KRMADT
19 KTVDDT
20 KTVD
25 KDEN
31 KDVR
32 KDVRDT
35 KCNCDT
38 KBDIDT

Their other lineups (e.g.: Dish Denver, DIRECTV Denver, Denver, NV) had only triple digit channel numbers for DTV???

Maybe this is what you meant:
(*)LONGMONT Comcast - Standard 
2 KWGN
3 LOAC
4 KCNC
5 CSPAN
6 KRMA
7 KMGH
9 KUSA
10 KTFD
11 KWHD
12 KBDI
13 KDVR
14 EDAC014
16 GOAC016
17 KCEC
18 KPXC
19 KDEN
20 KTVD
23 STYLE
24 SPEED
25 ALTSPRT
26 FSR
27 ESPN
28 ESPN2
29 TNT
30 USA
31 TBS
32 NIK
33 TVLAND
34 TOONP
35 DISNP
36 FAM
37 HALMRK
38 LIFE
: :
: :
This seems to match most of the analog channels but none of the digital channels.
Another factor: Is it possible that my Series 2 TiVo is OTA only? There was no indication, I could recognize, that IR Blaster was having any effect at all.


----------



## magnus

That is what I am referring to... you can get most of the lineup with that... until Tivo has the update ready. 

As for the IR blaster... have you re-run guided setup and said that you are using a set top box?

What is the model number of your Tivo?


----------



## Puppy76

I've bought two of the Magnavox units, which will hopefully work okay...

No complaints about it on Amazon, and at least Phillips is a real brand. It was really hard catching them when they were in stock.


----------



## cia_viewer

magnus said:


> That is what I am referring to... you can get most of the lineup with that... until Tivo has the update ready.


This appears to be the full list of 'cable' providers:
Comcast - Standard, Boulder, CO
Comcast - Digital Non, Boulder, CO
Comcast - Standard, Firestone, CO
Comcast - Digital Non, Firestone, CO
Comcast Suburbs - Standard, Aurora, CO
Comcast Suburbs - Digital Non, Aurora, CO
Comcast - Standard, Longmont, CO
Comcast - Digital Non, Longmont, CO

They all look pretty much the same (most of our analog channels, *none* of our digital channels and a bunch of other stuff)


magnus said:


> As for the IR blaster... have you re-run guided setup and said that you are using a set top box?


I re-ran the guided setup a bunch of times during the 6 hour attempt. That is why they needed to call me back or I needed to get back in the queue a few times. They were expecting that process to allow re-identification of the IR Blaster. (it never did) I remember a 5? part choice: (Antenna Only; Antenna and Cable; Satelite?; ...?)

I remember getting lost in a menu chain: Cable Box ; Digital (?); Provider (?); ...?


magnus said:


> What is the model number of your Tivo?


TiVo Model No: TCD240040
02 Feb 2003 (Pre July 2004)

Thank you for your patience.


----------



## dlt123

ZeoTiVo said:


> ...
> My speculation is that TiVo sees there is not really a significant amount of users with analog OTA on series 1 or 2. They are waiting to see what impact the TR-50 has and can easily respond to that with a Christamas Deal on a TiVo HD which can boost sales for more than just OTA antennas and converters that TiVo would most likely rather not get into the business of selling anyway


Just my thoughts... I am personally dumping my Comcast Cable and going OTA. I currently have a Series 2 TIVO box running Comcast where picture and reception isn't very good, so by by Comcast... Plus, I want to save money for now.

I am really waiting to see what the TR-50 brings to the table since I am spoiled with the DVR aspect of TV viewing. If TIVO really wants to undercut the TR-50, they should make the Series 2 boxes compatible with the TR-40 or DTVPal boxes.

This way they would/could cut the legs from underneath the possible TR-50 early adopters and possibly warrant off defectors from TIVO to the TR-50 for people like myself...

Just my random thoughts.
Dennis


----------



## JFMuggs

I've read this entire thread several times, but I'm still terribly confused about how to get a Zenith DTT901 converter box (at least partially) working with a TiVo Series 2. When I rerun the guided setup and choose satellite, I can select an LG receiver but I can't choose U-Verse as the provider (only Dish and Direct). If I choose cable instead so I can select U-Verse, there's no LG receiver to select (Zenith doesn't work). Could someone please explain how the correct combination is selected?


----------



## classicsat

Choose satellite with your local lineup, and when it asks, say you get local channels below 82.


----------



## cia_viewer

JFMuggs said:


> I've read this entire thread several times, but I'm still terribly confused about how to get a Zenith DTT901 converter box (at least partially) working with a TiVo Series 2. When I rerun the guided setup and choose satellite, I can select an LG receiver but I can't choose U-Verse as the provider (only Dish and Direct). If I choose cable instead so I can select U-Verse, there's no LG receiver to select (Zenith doesn't work). Could someone please explain how the correct combination is selected?


I tried out my Zenith DTT900 with my TiVo Series 2 before trading in for a DTT901.

I was able to view 'Live TV' when my TiVo was set to Ch3 (like my TV is set to CH3). I changed digital channels with my Zenith CECB remote control.

I have been unable to have TiVo 'control' the CECB (via IR Blaster).

TiVo is expected, this summer, to update software so it can 'control' any of the CECBs.

Maybe, later today, I will try the DTT901's Pass Through to see if I can 'manually' watch DTV or 
PassThrough the antenna signal for TiVo analog recording...

Yes, this does work.


----------



## TiVoJerry

While I'm not prepared to dive into a lot of details about various makes/models, I do want to communicate that the Digital Stream models do not appear to be reliable.

TiVoPony posted on 6/13 that the DTX9000 was problematic. We've since tested the DTX9550 and also found it to be unreliable. With that kind of record, it's unlikely that any Digital Stream models will be supported.


----------



## gerhard911

Could you please expound on the reliability issues you have encountered with the Digital Stream converters ?


----------



## dlt123

TiVoJerry said:


> While I'm not prepared to dive into a lot of details about various makes/models, I do want to communicate that the Digital Stream models do not appear to be reliable.
> 
> TiVoPony posted on 6/13 that the DTX9000 was problematic. We've since tested the DTX9550 and also found it to be unreliable. With that kind of record, it's unlikely that any Digital Stream models will be supported.


Ouch!!!  Are you referring to the Digital Stream DTX9950 because you mentioned a model 9550? DS was my second pick behind the DTVPal unit, now maybe I will have to forget the DS DTX9950. I'm still waiting for my coupons.

Could you make sure that your findings are with the DTX9950 model?

and BTW, are you going to support the *DTVPal *unit?

Thanks,
Dennis


----------



## bicker

TiVoJerry said:


> While I'm *not prepared to dive into a lot of details *about various makes/models, I do want to communicate that the Digital Stream models do not appear to be reliable.





gerhard911 said:


> Could you *please expound* on the reliability issues you have encountered with the Digital Stream converters ?


I suspect the answer to that question will be, "No."


----------



## Puppy76

"Digital Stream" is a brand? Well, hopefully my Magnavox ones will work okay  With no clue what to buy, and a choice only between RCA (Thompson Consumer Electronics) which has always been garbage for me, Best Buy's in-house brand, Lucky Goldstar (of which people have complained about some audio issues), and Magnavox...well at least Phillips is a real brand, and the Amazon customer reviews are positive....


----------



## TiVoJerry

gerhard911 said:


> Could you please expound on the reliability issues you have encountered with the Digital Stream converters ?


Neither DS model responded reliably enough to IR to qualify as something we'd want to support. We don't even plan on adding that manufacturer to our brand list during setup.


----------



## dlt123

TiVoJerry said:


> Neither DS model responded reliably enough to IR to qualify as something we'd want to support. We don't even plan on adding that manufacturer to our brand list during setup.


TiVoJerry, I appreciate your candid responses, this will help a lot of people make better decisions.

Keep up the good work.
Dennis


----------



## MickeS

Jerry, thanks for the info.

I'm looking forward to this update, which will let me drop the cable service completely. I use the Series 3 for OTA only, but I had to (re)subscribe to the basic package because the analog OTA for the Series 2 was so poor. With this update I'll be able to get a D/A box for the digital OTA and finally drop cable altogether. 

This leads me to a question though - how do the Series 2 handle the incoming 16:9 signal? Or is that done by the converter box?


----------



## David_NC

MickeS said:


> This leads me to a question though - how do the Series 2 handle the incoming 16:9 signal? Or is that done by the converter box?


Thats in the converter box - it expects your old TV to be the 4:3 ratio, and lets you do letterbox, expand to full screen (loose the left and right sides), etc.

Has anyone had a problem with the remote on the Magnavox converter from Wal-Mart? The remote on mine seems to only work if I point it right at the converter box - not near as sensitive as my tv or Tivo remote (those I can bounce off the walls and they still work).


----------



## Shawn95GT

MickeS said:


> This leads me to a question though - how do the Series 2 handle the incoming 16:9 signal? Or is that done by the converter box?


On mine I had the ATSC tuner 'squish' the 16:9 picture intro the 4:3 frame. When you set your TV to 'stretch' for what it thinks is 4:3 content, it rendered nice on my 16:9 set. It was quite nice for not being HD.

Of course I have all S3/THD hardware now .

Shawn


----------



## Puppy76

David_NC said:


> Thats in the converter box - it expects your old TV to be the 4:3 ratio, and lets you do letterbox, expand to full screen (loose the left and right sides), etc.
> 
> Has anyone had a problem with the remote on the Magnavox converter from Wal-Mart? The remote on mine seems to only work if I point it right at the converter box - not near as sensitive as my tv or Tivo remote (those I can bounce off the walls and they still work).


I thought Wal Mart only carried the Thompson/RCA one? I picked up two Magnavox ones from K-Mart, but haven't tried them yet. As long as they work with Tivo...


----------



## David_NC

Puppy76 said:


> I thought Wal Mart only carried the Thompson/RCA one? I picked up two Magnavox ones from K-Mart, but haven't tried them yet. As long as they work with Tivo...


I've got the TB100MW9, similar to the Kmart box, but no antenna feedthru.
It actually changes channels well with the IR blaster, so should work fine once they get the software updated. If you want to play with it, try IR code 10086.


----------



## Puppy76

Thanks, cool, I'll copy that down. For the time being I've got basic cable, so I probably won't mess with it until after official support comes out. (My cable company is going to jack up my internet rate, so I'm probably switching to DSL and losing basic cable in a few months  )


----------



## TiVoJedi

Forgive me for jumping in a thread without reading much of it, but I have a Phillips Series 1 TiVo and wondered if it will be possible to use the TiVo with a DTV converter box AND satellite receiver? Can the TiVo zap both receivers to change channels locally AND from the sat tuner? I know you're thinking, "why don't you just pay Dish Network $6/month and get locals on your dish tuner?". The answer is "I'm cheap" and don't want to pay anything for locals I pick up easily off the air. The TiVo's G-link cable actually has two 'heads', so one would be used for the IR of the DTV box and the other to the satellite tuner box. I don't believe TiVo plans to do a software upgrade on S1, but I do have my TiVo hacked with a Turbonet card for updates over ethernet (been running it this way for years), but am pressed to spend much time researching what I can and can't do with the DTV converter box. 

I see more talk on series 2 owners concerned about the DTV transition with their TiVo's and not much on series 1 owners thinking about using two receivers and how to set that up. I'd appreciate any insight anyone would like to share on S1 TiVo setup with a DTV converter box and sat tuner box... how to handle (or not).


----------



## Shawn95GT

TiVoJedi said:


> Forgive me for jumping in a thread without reading much of it, but I have a Phillips Series 1 TiVo and wondered if it will be possible to use the TiVo with a DTV converter box AND satellite receiver? Can the TiVo zap both receivers to change channels locally AND from the sat tuner? I know you're thinking, "why don't you just pay Dish Network $6/month and get locals on your dish tuner?". The answer is "I'm cheap" and don't want to pay anything for locals I pick up easily off the air. The TiVo's G-link cable actually has two 'heads', so one would be used for the IR of the DTV box and the other to the satellite tuner box. I don't believe TiVo plans to do a software upgrade on S1, but I do have my TiVo hacked with a Turbonet card for updates over ethernet (been running it this way for years), but am pressed to spend much time researching what I can and can't do with the DTV converter box.
> 
> I see more talk on series 2 owners concerned about the DTV transition with their TiVo's and not much on series 1 owners thinking about using two receivers and how to set that up. I'd appreciate any insight anyone would like to share on S1 TiVo setup with a DTV converter box and sat tuner box... how to handle (or not).


I'd say yes*.

The * being if you can find a cable lineup in your area with a 'close enough' channel lineup, if the IR blaster will control your DTV box (the usual problem), and you choose cable (with a box on RF ch3/4) + satellite in guided setup.


----------



## TiVoJerry

TiVoJedi said:


> Forgive me for jumping in a thread without reading much of it, but I have a Phillips Series 1 TiVo and wondered if it will be possible to use the TiVo with a DTV converter box AND satellite receiver? Can the TiVo zap both receivers to change channels locally AND from the sat tuner? I know you're thinking, "why don't you just pay Dish Network $6/month and get locals on your dish tuner?". The answer is "I'm cheap" and don't want to pay anything for locals I pick up easily off the air. The TiVo's G-link cable actually has two 'heads', so one would be used for the IR of the DTV box and the other to the satellite tuner box. I don't believe TiVo plans to do a software upgrade on S1, but I do have my TiVo hacked with a Turbonet card for updates over ethernet (been running it this way for years), but am pressed to spend much time researching what I can and can't do with the DTV converter box.
> 
> I see more talk on series 2 owners concerned about the DTV transition with their TiVo's and not much on series 1 owners thinking about using two receivers and how to set that up. I'd appreciate any insight anyone would like to share on S1 TiVo setup with a DTV converter box and sat tuner box... how to handle (or not).


The official word is that the Series 1 models will not be receiving a software update. Those models will not officially support digital antenna, although it's possible there is a workaround that *might* work reasonably well for you.

As a Series 1 owner, I strongly urge you to make sure your email address is updated in our systems so we can reach out to you in the very near future with more information.


----------



## dlt123

Hi all, I own a Series 2 TIVO box and have not heard which boxes TIVO will support for DTV. Does anyone know if TIVO is going to support either of the *DTVPal *or * Channel Master CM-7000 Digital to Analog Converter *DTV units?

I posed this question earlier in this thread, but it must have fallen through the cracks.

Thanks,
Dennis


----------



## kb7oeb

TiVoJedi said:


> Forgive me for jumping in a thread without reading much of it, but I have a Phillips Series 1 TiVo and wondered if it will be possible to use the TiVo with a DTV converter box AND satellite receiver? Can the TiVo zap both receivers to change channels locally AND from the sat tuner? I know you're thinking, "why don't you just pay Dish Network $6/month and get locals on your dish tuner?". The answer is "I'm cheap" and don't want to pay anything for locals I pick up easily off the air. The TiVo's G-link cable actually has two 'heads', so one would be used for the IR of the DTV box and the other to the satellite tuner box. I don't believe TiVo plans to do a software upgrade on S1, but I do have my TiVo hacked with a Turbonet card for updates over ethernet (been running it this way for years), but am pressed to spend much time researching what I can and can't do with the DTV converter box.
> 
> I see more talk on series 2 owners concerned about the DTV transition with their TiVo's and not much on series 1 owners thinking about using two receivers and how to set that up. I'd appreciate any insight anyone would like to share on S1 TiVo setup with a DTV converter box and sat tuner box... how to handle (or not).


You could buy a used 811 for cheap (they won't work for Dish HD much longer), it has a digital OTA tuner built in, as long as Dish places your locals on the same channel numbers you will only need the one box.


----------



## TiVoJerry

dlt123 said:


> Hi all, I own a Series 2 TIVO box and have not heard which boxes TIVO will support for DTV. Does anyone know if TIVO is going to support either of the *DTVPal *or * Channel Master CM-7000 Digital to Analog Converter *DTV units?
> 
> I posed this question earlier in this thread, but it must have fallen through the cracks.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dennis


We haven't posted a list of boxes we intend to support yet, but did state that the Digital Stream models are the first we do not intend to support. A more comprehensive list is coming shortly.


----------



## mattn2

TiVoJerry said:


> The official word is that the Series 1 models will not be receiving a software update. Those models will not officially support digital antenna, although it's possible there is a workaround that *might* work reasonably well for you.
> 
> As a Series 1 owner, I strongly urge you to make sure your email address is updated in our systems so we can reach out to you in the very near future with more information.


I am the "IT" (Video Tech?) person for my family and have siblings and parents that have series 1 TiVos in other states (multiple installs). How can I get the necessary information "as a Series 1 owner" ?

I have just recently de-commissioned my old S1 Philips.

Thanks!

# Matt


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## TiVoJerry

Stay tuned to this thread. I will make sure it is updated when I know more information has been made public.


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## David_NC

TiVoJerry said:


> The official word is that the Series 1 models will not be receiving a software update. Those models will not officially support digital antenna, although it's possible there is a workaround that *might* work reasonably well for you.


 OK, no software update.

 How about just a way to load the digital channel lineup into a series 1, possibly using strictly numbers with no "." or "-" for the subchannel, (such as 401 for 4-1, 1203 for 12-3, etc), so that I can at least get the correct station listed on a manual recording? I can do that on some channels now, using the local cable lineup, and setting the converter manually - makes it much easier to keep track of which of the 5 PBS subchannels I recorded on.


----------



## gastrof

A suggestion for OTA Series 1 users...

Get the Dish DTVPal.

It has a timer like an old VCR and can change channels.

Set your TiVo up to work with any type of external source you want, but then set up manual recordings for your Season Passes. Use any channel you like, especially if it's the channel you'll actually be recording.

Set the timer on the DTVPal box to the time and channel you want.

If your Series 1 is subscribed, once the recording is over the guide data might be wrong when you go to the Now Playing list (if you didn't choose the same channel you actually recorded), but the recording will be in there.

For unsubbies like me, set the TiVo to record any channel you want, since there won't be any real show info in the Now Playing section. 

The TiVo won't use an IR blaster, since the DTVPal will be changing channels and turning on all on its own. 

The converter box's timer will have the box turning to the channel you wanted to record (if you set it right), and at the same time your TiVo thinks it's telling its external source to change channels; the TiVo will then start recording....whatever the box is sending it.

This all should work because of the DTVPal's timer feature, which I don't think any of the other boxes have.


----------



## cia_viewer

gastrof said:


> A suggestion for OTA Series 1 users...
> 
> Get the Dish DTVPal.
> 
> It has a timer like an old VCR and can change channels.
> 
> Set your TiVo up to work with any type of external source you want, but then set up manual recordings for your Season Passes. Use any channel you like, especially if it's the channel you'll actually be recording.
> 
> Set the timer on the DTVPal box to the time and channel you want.
> 
> If your Series 1 is subscribed, once the recording is over the guide data might be wrong when you go to the Now Playing list (if you didn't choose the same channel you actually recorded), but the recording will be in there.
> 
> For unsubbies like me, set the TiVo to record any channel you want, since there won't be any real show info in the Now Playing section.
> 
> The TiVo won't use an IR blaster, since the DTVPal will be changing channels and turning on all on its own.
> 
> The converter box's timer will have the box turning to the channel you wanted to record (if you set it right), and at the same time your TiVo thinks it's telling its external source to change channels; the TiVo will then start recording....whatever the box is sending it.
> 
> This all should work because of the DTVPal's timer feature, which I don't think any of the other boxes have.


I believe with this approach, the TiVo would always be recording digital programming 'from Ch3 (or Ch4)'.

I have used this hookup with one CECB, 1 VCR and 1 TV:
ant => CECB => VCR => TV
With this:
1) CECB (off); VCR (off Ch3); TV (on Ch??) = view analog on TV
2) CECB (on Ch??); VCR (off Ch3); TV (on Ch3) = view digital on TV
3) CECB (off); VCR (on Ch??); TV (on/off Ch3) = record analog on VCR
4) CECB (on Ch??); VCR (on Ch3); TV (on/off Ch3) = record digital on VCR

Use your TiVo instead of the VCR shown above.

I have not done #4 with my Series 2 TiVo, yet, because Ch3 is not on it acceptable list and Ch4 is a live analog TV station.

My preferred CECB is Zenith DTT901. My coupons expired before the DTVPal debuted.


----------



## David_NC

cia_viewer said:


> I believe with this approach, the TiVo would always be recording digital programming 'from Ch3 (or Ch4)'.


If you use the A/V connections from the CECB to the Tivo, then the Tivo can be set to any channel - if your Tivo is subscribed, and you have a channel lineup (such as the local cable) that carries the digital OTA channels, then the recordings will have the correct program data.

It is also possible to split the antenna feed between the Tivo RF In and the CECB - then the Tivo can tune the analog channels on the internal tuner, and the digital channels come in through the A/V connections (the Tivo thinks the CECB is a cable box, although it can't actually change the CECB channels). The main problem with this is the loss in signal strength when you use the splitter, dividing the signal between the Tivo and the CECB.


----------



## gastrof

David_NC said:


> ...It is also possible to split the antenna feed between the Tivo RF In and the CECB - then the Tivo can tune the analog channels on the internal tuner, and the digital channels come in through the A/V connections...




We're really aiming this for the digital changeover.

There won't BE any analog channels (in most cases) for the TiVo to tune.


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## Budget_HT

There will be analog cable box outputs and analog satellite box outputs for a long time to come. Also, native cable in most areas will provide many analog channels for several years.


----------



## David_NC

Not all OTA stations are required to cease broadcasting on Feb 17, 2009 - there are exceptions for low power and translator stations, which can continue until the FCC decides otherwise.

Just had another thought - I wonder if the upgrade for the series 2 will be able to accommodate a CECB and a satellite box at the same time? (One on the RF input, the other on the A/V inputs). Possibly running one off the serial, and the other off the IR blaster?


----------



## snedecor

TiVoJerry said:


> The official word is that the Series 1 models will not be receiving a software update. Those models will not officially support digital antenna, although it's possible there is a workaround that *might* work reasonably well for you.
> 
> As a Series 1 owner, I strongly urge you to make sure your email address is updated in our systems so we can reach out to you in the very near future with more information.


As a Series 1 owner (hacked) who has this working, TiVo needs to do very little to support the CECB on Series 1.

1- They need to create one new lineup for each major OTA market. They already have this for antenna customers. They need to set it up as a cable lineup, and change the channel assignment. OTA channel 2 becomes 21. Channel 13 becomes 131. Channel 55 becomes 551. Almost all CECB's can already be controlled by the IR blaster. They just need an accurate lineup to control to.

2- TiVo Series one user only needs to re-do guided setup and select the appropriate lineup.

I know there are issues for people who have cable boxes and satellite boxes along with the CECB's but a partial solution is better than none. I also know there are a few sticky wickets with CECB's that act strangely, but if they got it working on a few models, unfortunate Series 1 users could only buy the boxes that worked.

If they *truly* wanted to support the poor Series 1 users, they would add the sub-channel guide information and channel mapping. However, most of the sub-channels in my market are looped weather information, replays of the evening news, or music videos (Trinity Broadcasting Network and Pax are notable exceptions). I could live with just the .1 assignments in a pinch.

C'mon TiVo, if we can figure this out, surely you can too. It's the least you can do for the people who financed your beginnings, and in some cases, still add to the till.


----------



## cia_viewer

David_NC said:


> If you use the A/V connections from the CECB to the Tivo, then the Tivo can be set to any channel - if your Tivo is subscribed, and you have a channel lineup (such as the local cable) that carries the digital OTA channels, then the recordings will have the correct program data.
> 
> It is also possible to split the antenna feed between the Tivo RF In and the CECB - then the Tivo can tune the analog channels on the internal tuner, and the digital channels come in through the A/V connections (the Tivo thinks the CECB is a cable box, although it can't actually change the CECB channels). The main problem with this is the loss in signal strength when you use the splitter, dividing the signal between the Tivo and the CECB.


I have my setup:
ant => CECB={COAX}{RCA:r/w/y}=>TiVoS2={COAX}{RCA:r/w/y}=>TV
In our area there seems to be no mapping (cable...) other than OTA that matches our broadcast channels.

I modified:
4) CECB (on Ch??); VCR (on Ch3); TV (on/off Ch3) = record digital on VCR
to: 
4) CECB (on Ch??); TiVoS2 (on Ch4); TV (on/off Ch3) = record digital on TiVo
(it was necessary to reconfigure the CECB to output to Ch4)
I 'manually' recorded Ch4 to get a recording of DTV Ch?? for the selected time period.

After finishing this experiment, I reset CECB and TiVo back to Ch3 so I can conveniently view DTV and record/view ATV.


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## classicsat

David_NC said:


> It is also possible to split the antenna feed between the Tivo RF In and the CECB - then the Tivo can tune the analog channels on the internal tuner, and the digital channels come in through the A/V connections (the Tivo thinks the CECB is a cable box, although it can't actually change the CECB channels).


Yes, you can do that, either if you set up satellite+antenna (and find an appropriate satellite lineup), or hack the DVR to run a script that can run cable+cable box.


----------



## classicsat

David_NC said:


> OK, no software update.
> 
> How about just a way to load the digital channel lineup into a series 1, possibly using strictly numbers with no "." or "-" for the subchannel, (such as 401 for 4-1, 1203 for 12-3, etc), so that I can at least get the correct station listed on a manual recording? I can do that on some channels now, using the local cable lineup, and setting the converter manually - makes it much easier to keep track of which of the 5 PBS subchannels I recorded on.


I doubt they will make custom lineups for Series 1s just to they can work with a DTV-OTA box. It is probably too much work than it is worth. I think their plan is to offer some sort of hardware upgrade deal.

As I see it, your only end solution to actually use a Series 1 with OTA in the USA, is to use an existing cable or satellite lineup that matches your primary OTA lineup.


----------



## snedecor

classicsat said:


> I doubt they will make custom lineups for Series 1s just to they can work with a DTV-OTA box. It is probably too much work than it is worth. I think their plan is to offer some sort of hardware upgrade deal.
> 
> As I see it, your only end solution to actually use a Series 1 with OTA in the USA, is to use an existing cable or satellite lineup that matches your primary OTA lineup.


If you're at all technically savvy (and can follow instructions in a tutorial), there IS another option. If you hack your TiVo (not talking about getting free channels or the TiVo service free, just access to the Linux "shell"), you can do the channel re-mapping via script or via TiVoWebPlus.

My Series 1 Sony SVR-2000 thinks it's controlling a local cable company box, but it's actually controlling the CECB. There was already an IR code that the RCA CECB recognized. I had to re-map the channels, and every time I get a channel lineup change, I have to do it again (grrrrrrr), but it does work.

If TiVo, lets us down, that is an option.


----------



## David_NC

classicsat said:


> I doubt they will make custom lineups for Series 1s just to they can work with a DTV-OTA box. It is probably too much work than it is worth.


I was thinking that they would already have the channel lineup for use on the series 2, just not in a format the series 1 software could handle. Should be fairly easy for their computers to change the channel numbers to a format the series 1 can handle.


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## TiVoJerry

Sorry, but we are not going to put an infrastructure like this in place.


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## snedecor

TiVoJerry said:


> Sorry, but we are not going to put an infrastructure like this in place.


Care to share with us how many unfortunate Series 1 owners still connect to the TiVo service? How many still pay a monthly or yearly fee?

The way I see it, TiVo sees this as a net gain. They lose the small number of Series 1 users who still use OTA and still pay (negative). They also lose the larger number of lifetimed Series 1 users (who financed their current existence) who don't pay any ongoing fees, and don't have to send out guide data to them (must be pretty expensive).

TiVo, November 2008: "Dear Series 1 owner. We tried really, really, really hard to support CECB's on your old out of date units, however the fates were against us. Thank you for supporting us all these many years, and financing our rise to success. We have a special offer for you. As a long-time customer , you are entitled to a special purchase price for a Tivo-HD, at only $399.99. Wait, it gets better! As a lifetime Series 1 owner, you are entitled to purchase lifetime for you new TiVo-HD for only $399.99
To take advantage of this deal, you must send the Series 1 to us, or destroy it and sent the parts to us.


----------



## bicker

snedecor said:


> The way I see it, TiVo sees this as a net gain.


As such, it would be a violation of their fiduciary responsibility to their owners to do anything else.


----------



## TiVoJerry

snedecor said:


> Care to share with us how many unfortunate Series 1 owners still connect to the TiVo service? How many still pay a monthly or yearly fee?
> 
> ....


No, I'm not going to share the total numbers with you. However, I can say that we're going make an offer that we feel is much more generous than the one you so kindly supplied.


----------



## magnus

I am optimistic that Tivo will do the right thing... even though I had a bad experience with a CSR... that told me to get cable/satellite instead of using OTA.



TiVoJerry said:


> No, I'm not going to share the total numbers with you. However, I can say that we're going make an offer that we feel is much more generous than the one you so kindly supplied.


----------



## TiVoJerry

magnus said:


> I am optimistic that Tivo will do the right thing... even though I had a bad experience with a CSR... that told me to get cable/satellite instead of using OTA.


magnus, that's just a single agent expressing an opinion. It is not our official position.

Keep an eye on the website. An update is imminent that should clarify things but I am heading out of town so I won't be able to post proactively.


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## MickeS

TiVoJerry said:


> Keep an eye on the website. An update is imminent that should clarify things


:up: Awesome, looking forward to it.


----------



## bicker

I wonder if folks need to be currently subscribed to warrant the S1 offer. My S1 is still working fine, but we haven't had a subscription on it for years.


----------



## pkrey

Cox Communications realizes there are going to be a lot of people that can't get OTA programing from their old TVs in Feb of 2009 so they have circled their prey. This is the letter I got in the mail today:

"We have been happy to provide your Limited Basic Cable service to you at a price of $9.95 through a special 6 month promotional offer. At the end of this promotional period, the price for your Limited Basic service will be $21.95."

I have one HD Tivo for our main entertainment which runs off OTA HD, but I want to use my series 2 to keep our older TV alive WITHOUT cable.

Come on TIVO! Hook us up with some good options for DTV broadcast converters. I'd like to know which one to buy before the gov discount coupons run out!

Keep us posted and get back to us soooooon!


----------



## MickeS

pkrey said:


> Cox Communications realizes there are going to be a lot of people that can't get OTA programing from their old TVs in Feb of 2009 so they have circled their prey. This is the letter I got in the mail today:
> 
> "We have been happy to provide your Limited Basic Cable service to you at a price of $9.95 through a special 6 month promotional offer. At the end of this promotional period, the price for your Limited Basic service will be $21.95."
> 
> I have one HD Tivo for our main entertainment which runs off OTA HD, but I want to use my series 2 to keep our older TV alive WITHOUT cable.
> 
> Come on TIVO! Hook us up with some good options for DTV broadcast converters. I'd like to know which one to buy before the gov discount coupons run out!
> 
> Keep us posted and get back to us soooooon!


I bet quite a few will realize that they can now get superior picture quality for free and will get rid of Cox. I will dump them for OTA as soon as my S2 can use the digital converter box. It's totally ridiculous that they charge me $21.95 for the Limited Basic.


----------



## kb7oeb

pkrey said:


> Cox Communications realizes there are going to be a lot of people that can't get OTA programing from their old TVs in Feb of 2009 so they have circled their prey.


One local station has replaced the phone number at the end of the DTV transition ad with a Cox logo and phone number.


----------



## b_scott

snedecor said:


> Care to share with us how many unfortunate Series 1 owners still connect to the TiVo service? How many still pay a monthly or yearly fee?
> 
> The way I see it, TiVo sees this as a net gain. They lose the small number of Series 1 users who still use OTA and still pay (negative). They also lose the larger number of lifetimed Series 1 users (who financed their current existence) who don't pay any ongoing fees, and don't have to send out guide data to them (must be pretty expensive).
> 
> TiVo, November 2008: "Dear Series 1 owner. We tried really, really, really hard to support CECB's on your old out of date units, however the fates were against us. Thank you for supporting us all these many years, and financing our rise to success. We have a special offer for you. As a long-time customer , you are entitled to a special purchase price for a Tivo-HD, at only $399.99. Wait, it gets better! As a lifetime Series 1 owner, you are entitled to purchase lifetime for you new TiVo-HD for only $399.99
> To take advantage of this deal, you must send the Series 1 to us, or destroy it and sent the parts to us.


don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.

honestly, i'm sure if you talked to Tivo you could probably get a Series 2 for next to nothing and maybe even a transfer of your lifetime for cheap or zero.


----------



## bicker

Well, it depends on what you mean by "cheap".


----------



## wmcbrine

kb7oeb said:


> One local station has replaced the phone number at the end of the DTV transition ad with a Cox logo and phone number.


Please tell the FCC... I think someone needs to be fined.


----------



## TivoZorro

Okay, I watched the DTV program broadcast by WRAL-TV5 one of our local channels. From I understand since I get cable service from Time Warner Cable our tvs will be able to get the new digital channels without converter boxes. 

From skimming this thread if I understand correctly my Series 2 Dual Tuner Tivo will not be able to have two analog tuners only one. It will be a single tuner unit. Some thngs I've read say that the DT Series 2 will not be able to get the new digital channel line ups or be able to tune the digital channels. Is this all true? This would mean the Series 2 would no longer work.

If so, I will have to replace my Series 2 DT and my other Series 2. What can I get that will tune the digital stuff on cable and have two tuners? Will either the Tivo Series 3 or Tivo HD do that? And could I get the HD one even though we don't have a HD TV? My tv will not have a digital cable box.

Thanks for any help. Want to have all this figured out before the switch happens next February.


----------



## bicker

As mentioned earlier, as described in the specs, the S2DT requires *analog cable service* for dual-tuner operation. If you want dual-tuner operation, be sure to hook your S2DT up to an analog cable service as per the specs.


----------



## restart88

Big exception however! When your cable provider goes all digital you'll have to use their box, right? So you're right back to 1 tuner.

Either way you'll need their box to get the Digital Tier channels.


----------



## restart88

MickeS said:


> I bet quite a few will realize that they can now get superior picture quality for free and will get rid of Cox. I will dump them for OTA as soon as my S2 can use the digital converter box. It's totally ridiculous that they charge me $21.95 for the Limited Basic.


I have a S2DT doing that now with the Digital Stream converter. I've been hesitating on getting a 2nd converter since my 540 is receiving analog OTA & Direct TV. But my coupon expiration is coming up and it looks like I won't go with the DTVPal as I was going to. I have no problems with getting a 2nd Digital Stream even without the S-Video jack and I know the DTX9950 will work with Tivo if you manually change the Ir codes.


----------



## TivoZorro

restart88 said:


> Big exception however! When your cable provider goes all digital you'll have to use their box, right? So you're right back to 1 tuner.
> 
> Either way you'll need their box to get the Digital Tier channels.


Does this apply to the local digital channels? Because if I'm not mistaken our laundry room tv is an lcd tv and it picks up the local digital channels whitout a cable box. Do you think that the cable companies are going to force everyone that wants their local digital channels (CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX) to get a cable box? I could afford it but think there are many people who couldn't.

Looks like if I want dual tuners I will have to get the Tivo Series 3 HD Recorder that can record 2 live digital channels at once. Because once the analog is gone the Series 2 DT will not work.


----------



## restart88

If you want dual tuners you will have to get the Tivo Series 3 HD.

Almost all of my local broadcasters are at least broadcasting a digital signal on their main channel. The exceptions are shopping channels and government channels, plus TBN & Daystar which may never go digital and barely ever come in via analog.

Obviously I can only record the sub channels manually and I'm told the S2DT will never be able to get them. But for me that pretty good for now.

The picture looks fantastic compared to recording in analog. In fact when stations are transmitting a true digital image it looks pretty close to HD quality on my small set and really even when I transfer it to my big set with the 540. At the least it compares favorably to recording DBS. SD programming converted to digital is noticeably lesser quality, but what would you expect?

--------------------------------

Because if I'm not mistaken our laundry room tv is an lcd tv and it picks up the local digital channels whitout a cable box.

Oops! I missed that part. Sounds like the TV has at least a digital tuner. Just to be clear I doubt there's any way to make a S2 Tivo accept that tuner for channel changing, however with a converter box you could always use that to record while watching live TV on the TV tuner.

You might find this thread helpful - http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=397348


----------



## cia_viewer

I like my Zenith DTT901. See my posts #375 and #381

I am working with a Series 2 single tuner OTA


----------



## TivoZorro

restart88 said:


> If you want dual tuners you will have to get the Tivo Series 3 HD.
> 
> Almost all of my local broadcasters are at least broadcasting a digital signal on their main channel. The exceptions are shopping channels and government channels, plus TBN & Daystar which may never go digital and barely ever come in via analog.
> 
> Obviously I can only record the sub channels manually and I'm told the S2DT will never be able to get them. But for me that pretty good for now.
> 
> The picture looks fantastic compared to recording in analog. In fact when stations are transmitting a true digital image it looks pretty close to HD quality on my small set and really even when I transfer it to my big set with the 540. At the least it compares favorably to recording DBS. SD programming converted to digital is noticeably lesser quality, but what would you expect?
> 
> --------------------------------
> 
> Because if I'm not mistaken our laundry room tv is an lcd tv and it picks up the local digital channels whitout a cable box.
> 
> Oops! I missed that part. Sounds like the TV has at least a digital tuner. Just to be clear I doubt there's any way to make a S2 Tivo accept that tuner for channel changing, however with a converter box you could always use that to record while watching live TV on the TV tuner.
> 
> You might find this thread helpful - http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=397348


The TV I use for my Tivos is a 36 inch analog tuner JVC CRT TV purchased in 1998. I was just using the laundry room tv as an example of an lcd tv that gets the local digital channels without a cable box.

So are you saying that the cable company will require me to have a digital cable box to get the local digital channels (CBS etc.) when they ditch the analog channel? If so that stinks. Or can I use the Tivo Series 3 HD and get the cable cards installed, which I would rather do than have to get a cable box. Holy Cow, that would mean we would have to have 9 cable boxes!


----------



## restart88

You've probably read enough threads to know for what you want you'd probably wish to go S3 with a cable card. In which case no cableco box required for that set. I just read a thread here where a local cableco only wanted to issue 1 cable card per customer, but that's a whole topic in itself.

As for what digital cable service means to a TV without a Tivo S3? I actually don't know but I'm sure others here do.

I know some providers are quick on the trigger to switch to digital service while others will continue to offer analog at least to existing subs. It is my understanding that once either your provider goes digital or you opt to sub to the digital tier then the S2 Tivos will need to have a digital cable box to connect to, or at the very least if you want to use Tivo for the higher number channels. I've gotten mixed signals from my local provider on this as I have broadband only and would be required to take the digital tier video just to get more broadband bandwidth and was told that once I was on digital I'd always have digital. So the S2DT will only be a dual tuner for lower channels and as long as analog service is still available to you.

But whether a TV with a digital tuner will be able to get the lower channels after a provider switches to digital I could only guess that perhaps it would work. Then again maybe not. Obviously for higher channels you would need a box but you seem to want just the lower channels on the other set(s).

What's sad for me is I prefer DBS.

Sorry I couldn't be more help.


----------



## restart88

cia_viewer said:


> I like my Zenith DTT901. See my posts #375 and #381
> 
> I am working with a Series 2 single tuner OTA


Does that have the pass through also?

As most of us have learned the Zenith & the Digital Stream are made by the same company, as is I think the Insigma also. Mainly just depends on which store you bought from when comparing similar models. But finding the Ir blaster codes seems to be the key to to getting a S2 to work as a digital OTA tuner.

The service provider info is only just for the guide data since you will be manually entering an Ir code. I don't know that it matters but for my box brand in setup I choose Zenith.

------------------

I should probably mention for clarity's sake that I did not use the RCA out from the converter box to the Tivo RCA in jacks. I ran the coax out from the converter to the modulator (set to ch 4), and then used the RCA out from Tivo to the RCA in (which is actually the game port) on the TV. This leaves the Rf connection free on the TV for whatever.

I could never get the dual tuner Tivo to accept the RCA-in when trying to setup which is what made me think of using the modulator to be able to have a ch 3/ 4 for Tivo to see.


----------



## TivoZorro

If I get the Tivo HD with the 2 CableCards would they work on an analog tv or would I need to have a digital tv?


----------



## restart88

There is a single card, I think it's called an "M" card, that should allow dual tuning if your provider offers it. Search the boards for more info on that.

It is my understanding that S3 will work on a SD TV just fine.

https://www3.tivo.com/buytivo/faqs/about_hddvr/index.html

Q. Can I connect the TiVo HD to a regular TV that doesn't support HD?

A. Yes, you can use the TiVo HD with a standard TV. It will record TV shows in HD, but display them in standard definition on your TV.


----------



## retired_guy

The HD and S3 connect fine to an analog TV as long as the TV has a composite, component and/or S-video input option. However, the HD and S3 don't have a RF (cable) output and there are some old analog TV sets still in use which only have cable input. These sets can't be connected unless one buys hardware from Radio Shack or a similar place which would convert composite or S-video to RF cable format. When one does that, they'd typically tune the TV input to channel 3 or 4 and use the S3 or HD to tune the channel watching live TV. Anther option for such sets would be to use a old video recorder or DVD player with composite or S-video input as the device to convert to RF output.


----------



## classicsat

Your LCD TV with digital tuner should be fine. The cable providers are required to provide at least you local broadcast channels unencrypted.

A Series 3/TiVo HD will work fine with an analog TV set.

TiVoJerry has said they will not support the Digital Stream boxes.


----------



## classicsat

TivoZorro said:


> From skimming this thread if I understand correctly my Series 2 Dual Tuner Tivo will not be able to have two analog tuners only one. It will be a single tuner unit.


If you have an all digital service, it will have zero analog tuners available, but have an A/V input and control for a box, making it technically one tuner.


> Some thngs I've read say that the DT Series 2 will not be able to get the new digital channel line ups or be able to tune the digital channels. Is this all true? This would mean the Series 2 would no longer work.


A Series 2 DT will not get digital antenna lineups, since it is not capable of antenna anyways.

It will get digital cable/satellite/IPTV lineups and box support fine, just like all other Series 2s.


> If so, I will have to replace my Series 2 DT and my other Series 2. What can I get that will tune the digital stuff on cable and have two tuners? Will either the Tivo Series 3 or Tivo HD do that? And could I get the HD one even though we don't have a HD TV? My tv will not have a digital cable box.


You can use an HD TiVo on an SDTV fine. They are the only ones with built in digital tuners.


> Thanks for any help. Want to have all this figured out before the switch happens next February.


Since you have cable, you aren't directly affected by that cutoff (it applies only to those that have an antenna themselves), but more the whim of your provider.


----------



## restart88

TiVoJerry has said they will not support the Digital Stream boxes.

Supported or not it works.


----------



## TivoZorro

After much reading on the Internet I am still up in the air on what to do.

According to Time Warner's website my analog tvs will work just fine because they are connected to cable. The line-up probably won't change although they said that would vary. Their commercials indicated I will be able to enjoy my favorite channels and shows.

But this still doesn't solve the problem of the Series 2 not being able to tune the digital channels. I don't care about the higher digital channels just CBS, NBC. ABC, FOX and CW. And not being able to have dual tuners. So I guess I have to decide if I want to get a digital cable box for each Series 2 or replace them with the Series 3's with cable cards. I've read that the Series 3's are having some problems right now so I'm leery of going with that. And wouldn't I have to get two cable boxes for a Series 2 to have dual tuners?

What would you do?


----------



## restart88

If ALL you want are CBS, NBC. ABC, FOX and CW and it's working fine now I believe for what you want to do I'd set aside a few dollars every month waiting for a great deal on the S3 and then dump cable entirely if you get a good signal. Problem solved! 

Or you could do the unsupported converter box to S2 method to tied you over and add the money you'd have paid in cable fees to your S3 savings project.

--------------

And wouldn't I have to get two cable boxes for a Series 2 to have dual tuners?

Poorly worded but that's the essence of it yes. But you'd also have to have 2 Tivos to do it. Unless the underground says different.


----------



## TivoZorro

classicsat said:


> You can use an HD TiVo on an SDTV fine. They are the only ones with built in digital tuners.


Okay, another dumb question. LOL! If the HD Tivos have built in digital tuners could I just hook it up to coaxal cable and forgo the cablecards and have it get the local digital channels? I'm only interested in channels 1-74. I really want the dual tuners. Don't know how I am going to live without that. We have a digital cable box on one tv that gets all of the premium channels. I use a VCR for those shows.


----------



## TivoZorro

restart88 said:


> If ALL you want are CBS, NBC. ABC, FOX and CW and it's working fine now I believe for what you want to do I'd set aside a few dollars every month waiting for a great deal on the S3 and then dump cable entirely if you get a good signal. Problem solved!
> 
> Or you could do the unsupported converter box to S2 method to tied you over and add the money you'd have paid in cable fees to your S3 savings project.


I would have to have basic cable (1 to 74) that includes all the locals plus things like Fox News, CNN, MSNBC. AMC. Animal Planet, TNT, USA, FX etc.


----------



## restart88

TivoZorro said:


> I would have to have basic cable (1 to 74) that includes all the locals plus things like Fox News, CNN, MSNBC. AMC. Animal Planet, TNT, USA, FX etc.


In that instance use case 1.


----------



## TivoZorro

restart88 said:


> In that instance use case 1.


Thanks. It looks like I will be ordering a Series 3 at least for my bedroom tv. Still wondering if it will get the basic digital channels without having the cablecards installed. Don't mind spending the money, just want everything to work.


----------



## Shawn95GT

TivoZorro said:


> Okay, another dumb question. LOL! If the HD Tivos have built in digital tuners could I just hook it up to coaxal cable and forgo the cablecards and have it get the local digital channels? I'm only interested in channels 1-74. I really want the dual tuners. Don't know how I am going to live without that. We have a digital cable box on one tv that gets all of the premium channels. I use a VCR for those shows.


To get any digital 'cable' channels (by cable I mean from the cable source), you'll still need cablecards.

Without cablecards you can only tune 1-74 from analog. If the channels are in the clear you might be able to tune then but they'll be on strange channel numbers. Channel 33 might be channel 27-03 or something like that. The problem with this is that then your Tivo won't have guide data for the channel as it only knows the channel as chanel 33.

Now, if you're looking to get the local channels 'off-air' and the cable channels via analog, the S3/THD will do that quite nice. I have one of each doing this now. All you really gain is High Definition output, dual tuners and recording capacity over a S2 with with an ATSC tuner.

The bottom line is that without cablecards you won't be able to record anything from cable that you can't get with your S2.


----------



## restart88

I just received this email from a BHN cable rep:

Any additional televisions connected to cable but without a Digitalbox/HD box will receive Standard Cable channels which are 2-69 and 99.

OTOH there was no mention whether this is just for now or if it will always be that way and her previous reply had different figures for the cost of the services. 

The irony here is that I finally got my S2DT working with an OTA digital converter, so I'd lose the easy ability to manually Tivo sub channels in exchange for having a dual tuner that records 2-69 and 99.

But it amazes me is how they can't even get the price right the 1st time since that's what they do is take sales orders! This is like the 3rd or 4th different price they've now quoted.


----------



## cia_viewer

restart88 said:


> Does that have the pass through also?
> 
> As most of us have learned the Zenith & the Digital Stream are made by the same company, as is I think the Insigma also. Mainly just depends on which store you bought from when comparing similar models. But finding the Ir blaster codes seems to be the key to to getting a S2 to work as a digital OTA tuner.
> 
> The service provider info is only just for the guide data since you will be manually entering an Ir code. I don't know that it matters but for my box brand in setup I choose Zenith.
> 
> ------------------
> 
> I should probably mention for clarity's sake that I did not use the RCA out from the converter box to the Tivo RCA in jacks. I ran the coax out from the converter to the modulator (set to ch 4), and then used the RCA out from Tivo to the RCA in (which is actually the game port) on the TV. This leaves the Rf connection free on the TV for whatever.
> 
> I could never get the dual tuner Tivo to accept the RCA-in when trying to setup which is what made me think of using the modulator to be able to have a ch 3/ 4 for Tivo to see.


Zenith DTT900	&	Insignia NS-DXA1	NoPassThru
*Zenith DTT901	&	Insignia NS-DXA1-APT	PassThru*

My attic mounted antenna is 'shared' by a 'homerun' box in the basement that is connected to COAX outlets in different rooms.

One of those COAX outlets is connected to the antenna input of my HD TiVo.

Another of the COAX outlets is connected to my Zenith DTT901 antenna in. Its COAX RF out and RCA r/w/y out are connected to my Series 2 TiVo inputs. This TiVo also has its COAX RF out and RCA r/w/y out connected to an analog TV.

When the Zenith DTT901 is powered on it is tuning and converting DTV to ATV to be received by (Ch3/Ch4) in the TiVo which in turn is delivering the ATV to (Ch3/Ch4) in the TV.

When the Zenith DTT901 is powered off it is 'Passing Through' the ATV so it can be tuned by the TiVo of the TV.


----------



## Budget_HT

restart88 said:


> If you want dual tuners you will have to get the Tivo Series 3 HD.


Clarification: For dual digital tuners, one can use a TiVo S3 or the less expensive TiVo HD.

I am not sure why you are only recommending the S3, unless you were speaking generically in a way that addresses both models.


----------



## restart88

Yes, I was speaking generically. I was just thinking about the $200 Tivo HD being the cheaper option.


----------



## dpecs

Could somebody explain why having a pass thru box is a good thing? I know what it is. I just don't understand why its such a big deal. Thanks for the info.


----------



## Shawn95GT

dpecs said:


> Could somebody explain why having a pass thru box is a good thing? I know what it is. I just don't understand why its such a big deal. Thanks for the info.


Not all stations have or will switch to Digital.

This being said, I seriously doubt Tivo will support the analog pass-through (turning off the STB) for recording from the analog source. If anything maybe they'll let you choose to record both from either the on-board analog tuner or the ATSC tuner.

Again, A S3/THD makes this a lot simpler. If you can find a deal and you aren't under a subsidized contract, get the new box, TSN swap, everyone is happy. I did this for my THD in place of my MSD'd S2.


----------



## wmcbrine

dpecs said:


> Could somebody explain why having a pass thru box is a good thing? I know what it is. I just don't understand why its such a big deal. Thanks for the info.


Analog pass-through allows you to continue using the TV's built-in tuner to pick up analog (NTSC) channels, while they're still on. Even after February 2009, some "low power" analog stations will remain on air, for an indefinite period. Personally, I don't get any such stations, so I don't care about analog pass-through.

But if you've ever owned a VCR, you've had pass-through on it. It's kind of crazy that the CECB's weren't all built this way to begin with.


----------



## bicker

restart88 said:


> Supported or not it works.


Until it doesn't, and then anyone who read your message and decided to buy one to use with their TiVo have only themselves to blame (because they should never have believed you over TiVoJerry).


----------



## restart88

bicker said:


> Until it doesn't, and then anyone who read your message and decided to buy one to use with their TiVo have only themselves to blame (because they should never have believed you over TiVoJerry).


Maybe you saw a different quote from TiVoJerry but the one I seem to recall reading said no converter box was going to be supported for it.

Not sure where the downside is in what I said. At best this is a temporary measure anyway because if everyone had $200 for an S3 they'd probably have gone that route anyway. I'm not sure if it was this thread or the other but I did ALSO say that I probably wouldn't suggest buying an S2 but that this was a way to give one a little longer life.

And at worst you wind up spending $20 for a converter box that you probably can find some use for.


----------



## larkor

I just received my DTVPal today and I find that works with Dishnetwork for the local into local channel lineup. All two digit channels are now entered correctly. I no longer get 2.9 for 29 or 3.3 for 33. Use code 10001-C.


----------



## Mike500

I just got this email from TiVo, today;

_Dear TiVo® customer, 
Our records show that you currently receive some or all of your television signals for your TiVo® DVR through good old-fashioned "rabbit ears" or rooftop antenna. 
That means you WILL be affected by the "Digital Transition" on February 17, 2009-the date television stations are federally mandated to switch from old-style analog to all-digital broadcast signals. 
To learn how you are affected and what you need to do, follow these simple instructions: 
Visit tivo.com/digital2009 
Enter your TSN# 240xxxxxxxxxx in the requested field. 
We'll then fill you in on everything you need to know to continue enjoying the world's best way to watch TV with TiVo!

Thanks for being a valued member of the TiVo family! 
- Your friends at TiVo Inc. _


----------



## jlac839

Well, I didn't get any email from TiVo but I visited the tivo.com/digital2009 site and entered my TSN to see what it would report. This is what I got...

Relax, and continue enjoying your favorite shows!

Because you currently DO NOT receive analog signals using an antenna, you don't need to life a finger! Your TiVo&#174;HD DVR has digital tuners built-in so you do not need to buy a government-subsidized digital converter box or a digital-ready TV. Just enjoy your favorite shows and the TiVo experience like you always have.

Thanks for being a member of the TiVo family!

Digital Transition Fun Facts

* While Digital Transition will affect more than 30 million analog TVs in the US households that rely on over-the-air broadcasts, thanks to TiVo, you're not one of them.
* American homes have an average of 2.6 televisions.
* If you have any outdated electronics, check whether your municipality offers recycling programs that accept electronic waste at EIAE.org.

Trouble is, I don't have a TiVo HD unit. I have a series 2 DVD unit and I receive OTA analog programming. I know I need a converter and am awaiting information about the software upgrade that will let me use it. So, I wouldn't trust this page just yet until they get some kinks worked out.

Edit: I called TiVo support to report this issue and the agent confirmed it. He indicated that he would forward the issue to engineering.


----------



## bradm42

More interesting is this list of supported boxes (click the converter boxes tab)

# Insignia NS-DXA1
# Venturer STB7766G
# Magnavox TB100MW9
# RCA DTA 800A
# GE 22729
# Zenith DTT900
# Channel Master CM-7000
# Lasonic LTA-260
# Philco TB100HH9
# Samsonic FT300A
# Tivax STB-T9
# Artec T3Apro


----------



## dlt123

bradm42 said:


> More interesting is this list of supported boxes (click the converter boxes tab)
> 
> # Insignia NS-DXA1
> # Venturer STB7766G
> # Magnavox TB100MW9
> # RCA DTA 800A
> # GE 22729
> # Zenith DTT900
> # Channel Master CM-7000
> # Lasonic LTA-260
> # Philco TB100HH9
> # Samsonic FT300A
> # Tivax STB-T9
> # Artec T3Apro


Ok bradm42, I'll bite... what's this list about?... 

[Edit] Never mind, I figured it out... Tsk Tsk... I still don't see DTVPal in the list... I wonder if they are going to support this box? [/Edit]

Dennis


----------



## magnus

I just tried my S1 and it returns the same message. I have my set up to get UVerse because there is no way that I could get the converter box to work without choosing something other than OTA (because there is no option for using a box with OTA).



jlac839 said:


> Well, I didn't get any email from TiVo but I visited the tivo.com/digital2009 site and entered my TSN to see what it would report. This is what I got...
> 
> Relax, and continue enjoying your favorite shows!
> 
> Because you currently DO NOT receive analog signals using an antenna, you don't need to life a finger! Your TiVo®HD DVR has digital tuners built-in so you do not need to buy a government-subsidized digital converter box or a digital-ready TV. Just enjoy your favorite shows and the TiVo experience like you always have.
> 
> Thanks for being a member of the TiVo family!
> 
> Digital Transition Fun Facts
> 
> * While Digital Transition will affect more than 30 million analog TVs in the US households that rely on over-the-air broadcasts, thanks to TiVo, you're not one of them.
> * American homes have an average of 2.6 televisions.
> * If you have any outdated electronics, check whether your municipality offers recycling programs that accept electronic waste at EIAE.org.
> 
> Trouble is, I don't have a TiVo HD unit. I have a series 2 DVD unit and I receive OTA analog programming. I know I need a converter and am awaiting information about the software upgrade that will let me use it. So, I wouldn't trust this page just yet until they get some kinks worked out.


----------



## jlac839

Well spotted bradm42 - that's the information I wanted. I surmise that the list is good enough to trust since TivoJerry did indicate last week that they had been testing several units and that an update was imminent. Now I just want to know when the software will be released (harrumph - never satisfied ). 
Edit: Actually, I'd rather just have the software!

They really ought to link to this page from the existing page about digital tuning (and vice versa?):

http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/howto/Digital_antenna_support.html

Perhaps they haven't gotten around to it yet.


----------



## classicsat

magnus said:


> I just tried my S1 and it returns the same message. I have my set up to get UVerse because there is no way that I could get the converter box to work without choosing something other than OTA (because there is no option for using a box with OTA).


That is because TiVo believes you are set up for Uverse service, therefore believes you are unaffected.

If you were set up for analog antenna only, the response will be different.

I _did_ get the offer (on the website, not be email, yet anyways), because I do have one TiVo that TiVo believes is set up for analog antenna, which is really set up for another satellite receiver (to get just NASA TV, because my primary provider; Star Choice, does not carry it, nor does any cable provider in my time zone).

I understand there is to be a general summer update pretty soon. My understanding is mostly based on hearsay and rumour though.


----------



## Lurker1

I am already using the S2 infrared blaster to control my satellite box. Will I be able to control both a digital converter box and satellite box with one S2? The information from the TiVo email and web site implies that I can add a converter box to my current setup and not to worry. I am suspicious of this.


----------



## Shawn95GT

Lurker1 said:


> I am already using the S2 infrared blaster to control my satellite box. Will I be able to control both a digital converter box and satellite box with one S2? The information from the TiVo email and web site implies that I can add a converter box to my current setup and not to worry. I am suspicious of this.


I imagine you will since off-air + sat is an option now. I imagine it'll treat antenna like cable is now and ask 'with a box?'.

I know you cab do cable with a box and satellite on one S2. One just uses RF ch3/4 for the input.

Shawn


----------



## Lurker1

Thanks, Shawn. I was unaware that the software already supports two boxes now. I guess the IR blaster placement would be tricky for this?

I'd hate to use the RF input. Do you think I could use both the S-video and composite inputs?


----------



## Lurker1

Hm. After a bit more searching, I actually found detailed instructions for my specific case. I am impressed. http://www3.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/prm/digital-transition/Satellite_Converter_Instructions.pdf


----------



## Puppy76

I've got to say I'm surprised they're able to pull something like that off!


----------



## gastrof

Lurker1 said:


> Thanks, Shawn. I was unaware that the software already supports two boxes now. I guess the IR blaster placement would be tricky for this?...


Don't some IR cables come with two heads, on two separate runs ending in one plug?


----------



## dylanemcgregor

So just got the email, and entered the S1 for the TiVo that I've given to my dad who lives in the sticks, and only has OTA. They are offering a refurbed TiVo HD for $99 and a transfer of lifetime for $299.

Wonder if I could just buy a new lifetime with this offer, instead of transferring, and then give the S1 to someone who still has analog cable? Probably not...


----------



## Shawn95GT

gastrof said:


> Don't some IR cables come with two heads, on two separate runs ending in one plug?


My S2s had 2 head IR blasters.


----------



## classicsat

AFAIK, all stock TiVo IR blasters are the pictured two-head with purple plug sort. You can get single head 3rd party adapters. Likely also possible would be to use serial for satellite and IR for the DTV tuner.


----------



## David_NC

The two-head IR blaster has both heads sending the same IR signal - the plug only has 2 connections (signal and ground). The are relying on the CECB and satellite box ignoring the signals that are meant for the other (should work fine, since you don't have problems with the stock remotes controlling the wrong equipment).

Has anyone been able to download version 9.3.1 of the software yet? Or is the previously posted link to the Tivo setup manual a preliminary document?


----------



## magnus

Yep, tried that last night but it still did not work.



classicsat said:


> That is because TiVo believes you are set up for Uverse service, therefore believes you are unaffected.
> 
> If you were set up for analog antenna only, the response will be different.
> 
> I _did_ get the offer (on the website, not be email, yet anyways), because I do have one TiVo that TiVo believes is set up for analog antenna, which is really set up for another satellite receiver (to get just NASA TV, because my primary provider; Star Choice, does not carry it, nor does any cable provider in my time zone).
> 
> I understand there is to be a general summer update pretty soon. My understanding is mostly based on hearsay and rumour though.


----------



## magnus

I'm sorry but that does not seem to be that good of an offer (IMO).



dylanemcgregor said:


> So just got the email, and entered the S1 for the TiVo that I've given to my dad who lives in the sticks, and only has OTA. They are offering a refurbed TiVo HD for $99 and a transfer of lifetime for $299.
> 
> Wonder if I could just buy a new lifetime with this offer, instead of transferring, and then give the S1 to someone who still has analog cable? Probably not...


----------



## magnus

Also, Tivo site does not appear to be working correctly. 


For a bad TSN, I get:

Sorry, this TiVo Service Number does not qualify for this offering. Please verify you have entered the correct TiVo Service Number for this TiVo offering.

But for my real TSN:

It does not even appear to be submitting the page now. It does not appear to be doing anything at all.


----------



## Mikeguy

It is gratifying to see that TIVO Has taken this issue on and devised solutions, for those of us on antenna. My fear had been that I would end up with a wonderful Toshiba DVD burner TIVO lifetime subscription doorstop, based on many forum predictions earlier. Thank you, TIVO, for proving people wrong.


----------



## dlt123

David_NC said:


> The two-head IR blaster has both heads sending the same IR signal - the plug only has 2 connections (signal and ground). The are relying on the CECB and satellite box ignoring the signals that are meant for the other (should work fine, since you don't have problems with the stock remotes controlling the wrong equipment).
> 
> Has anyone been able to download version 9.3.1 of the software yet? Or is the previously posted link to the Tivo setup manual a preliminary document?


I just checked my software version, and it says I have 9.3.01... So, it looks like I have the correct version and when I get another DTV box, I will hook it up to my S2 TIVO.

Dennis


----------



## David_NC

dlt123 said:


> I just checked my software version, and it says I have 9.3.01... So, it looks like I have the correct version and when I get another DTV box, I will hook it up to my S2 TIVO.
> 
> Dennis


Is that 9.3.01 or 9.3-01 ?

As an example, version 9.3 will show up as 9.3-01-2-140 (that's from a model 240 Tivo).

I really doubt 9.3.1 is out of beta testing yet.


----------



## pkrey

TiVoJerry and friends
Which digital converter box is the best? Do some work better than others? Video quality? Is there somewhere that compares the features? Are some more compatible with Tivo than others?

List from Tivo.com
1. Insignia NS-DXA1
2. Venturer STB7766G
3. Magnavox TB100MW9
4. RCA DTA 800A
5. GE 22729
6. Zenith DTT900
7. Channel Master CM-7000
8. Lasonic LTA-260
9. Philco TB100HH9
10. Samsonic FT300A
11. Tivax STB-T9
12. Artec T3Apro

Which should I buy???


----------



## Mike500

Insignia NS-DXA1 at Best Buy or 6. Zenith DTT900 at Radio Shack or Circuit City.

These have the best LG tuners and pull in the best signals.


----------



## pkrey

Cool, thanks.

I wonder if Tivo will add Zenith DTT901 which has analog pass-through... ?


----------



## jlac839

Comparison of several units is available at ConsumerReports:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...erter/ratings/dtv-converter-boxes-ratings.htm


----------



## dlt123

David_NC said:


> Is that 9.3.01 or 9.3-01 ?
> 
> As an example, version 9.3 will show up as 9.3-01-2-140 (that's from a model 240 Tivo).
> 
> I really doubt 9.3.1 is out of beta testing yet.


Hey, thanks for bringing this to my attention. Actually, my software number is 9.3-01-2-540. You're right, it's a dash and not a period. My eyes were deceiving me. 

Sorry for the false alarm... and good catch. 

Dennis


----------



## cia_viewer

I just had my first look at Universal Swivel Search.

Is there a fee for everything on there?


----------



## DancnDude

cia_viewer said:


> I just had my first look at Universal Swivel Search.
> 
> Is there a fee for everything on there?


Nope. It will poll your guide information and find things for you to record that match. I know it will also show Amazon Unbox movies which you could download (and pay), but it does show things coming up on TV. It's just that at any given time, there may not be things airing that match within the next 2 weeks. The results can change pretty quickly due to that.


----------



## TiVoJerry

pkrey said:


> TiVoJerry and friends
> Which digital converter box is the best? Do some work better than others? Video quality? Is there somewhere that compares the features? Are some more compatible with Tivo than others?
> 
> List from Tivo.com
> 1. Insignia NS-DXA1
> 2. Venturer STB7766G
> 3. Magnavox TB100MW9
> 4. RCA DTA 800A
> 5. GE 22729
> 6. Zenith DTT900
> 7. Channel Master CM-7000
> 8. Lasonic LTA-260
> 9. Philco TB100HH9
> 10. Samsonic FT300A
> 11. Tivax STB-T9
> 12. Artec T3Apro
> 
> Which should I buy???


As far as we're concerned, they are virtually the same in our eyes from a support perspective. IR reliability was our main focus.

As for video quality, we did not perform any analysis but I do know that the Channel Master has s-video output. I don't recall if any other models have s-vid.

BTW, we also added the other Digital Stream model to the UNSUPPORTED list. Our engineers did not feel it responded to IR reliably enough for us to recommend.


----------



## TiVoJedi

I'm disappointed by the offer for my S1 because the TiVoHD doesn't allow me to use my satellite service with it and I am an OTA + Satellite user. 
I guess since it doesn't use an IR zapper, it wasn't designed that way. 

Is TiVo in coalition with cable companies or did they feel that the zapper was too confusing to most consumers? 

I guess my only choice is to use TiVoWeb (I never installed plus, but I have the channel remap module installed) and use a CECB. The local cable channel lineup doesn't match the OTA channel numbers. I keep getting confused on which CECB is compatible with S1 other than some RCA one that isn't available anywhere in my area. Does the S1 TiVo already support remote codes for other CECBs like the CM-7000 or Tivax box? If it doesn't, will S1 TiVos get the portion of the software update that allows it the additional remote control codes for the variety of CECBs? 

Just seems that TiVo forgot about their OTA + satellite users by not offering a deal that doesn't require dropping your satellite service to get a TiVo that can tune more than local stations OTA.


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## restart88

I'm in the same boat. For now I'm transitioning the OTA Season Passes to my S2DT with the digital converter and away from using the 540 for anything but DBS and live TV viewing. But I too am not happy about losing OTA & DBS on 1 box. 

OTOH I may be switching to cable and just have 1 Tivo for the OTA sub channels when available, so either the 540 or an S3.

-----------------

Well ok I see there's a recent work around for the 540 after all. That helps some.


----------



## restart88

BTW, we also added the other Digital Stream model to the UNSUPPORTED list. Our engineers did not feel it responded to IR reliably enough for us to recommend.

That just kills me! The DTX9950 has been rock solid for me on the S2DT. I can't say that for any Direct TV blaster connection I've ever had except for maybe an old RCA which was pretty close.


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## newskilz

*EDIT:My other thread and it's method became obsolete when the analog channels were dropped, so you will have to use the long method described below. (So I removed the link to the other thread)
*

Hi everyone, thought I'd share a little with you about the Apex DT250. I went to BB yesterday and bought the box, they finally had more in stock. I specifically wanted this box because it seemed the most "future proof" being used with TiVo or not due to the Smart Antenna connection, and what I wanted which was the best video available via S-Video.

For my test purposes I'm trying to connect to the DT250 via my Phillips S1, figuring if I can get it to work with that, then most all S1's and S2's should be able to use it. I'm connecting it to an LCD flat panel that is 16:9. Also, using a 50" (I think) outdoor antenna mounted in my attic for reception, since I'm fortunate enough to live less than 20 miles from most transmitters (basing this from AntennaWeb), it pulls in pretty good and no it's not any supposed 'made for HD' antenna either.

(follow underlined for paraphrased directions and bold is for good informational purposes)

First: I directly connected the antenna feed into the box and then straight to the tv, so nothing is interfering with anything. Then I turn on the box and run through it's setup which is outlined in the manual, which I found pretty straight forward and easy. Yes occasionally when using the remote it does go two channels at once, but who cares, we aren't planning on using the stock remote are we? Tested only on the remote at this point: If you input a channel and then put that same channel in again, it stays on the same channel, does NOT go to a sub channel.(IE you want channel 21, enter it in, then enter 21 again, stays on 21-1) There is no channel mixups, as in if you had say channel 42, it would go to 42-1, not 4-2. Anyway, for me the setup of the box took all of 5 minutes or so... I was already trying to get ahead and figure out how to have my TiVo talk to it, so I estimated.... it didn't take that long.

Second; Someone else on some other post stated that this box zoomed too much for their tv resulting in too much of the video being cropped top and bottom, and took it back. Well, it can, but... you can select Auto, 4:3 and 16:9 aspect ratios. Some odd reason it seems the 4:3 and 16:9 ratios are swapped, meaning when I select 16:9, I get a roughly 4:3 output and vise versa. Also, from my limited testing, Auto would show the same thing as if I'd selected the 4:3 ratio-So I'm currently trying out *'Auto'*,which for me *displays* pretty much *16:9 aspect on my 16:9 tv screen* (I can manipulate it better with the tv's settings anyway).

Third: The manual doesn't outright say it, but implies that after you do a search for channels and come up with *any missing channel(s)* you want, it talks like you *just re-adjust the antenna and redo the search... and the manual _implies_ that it will only add any new channels it finds.* I haven't tested this theory yet since it pulled all the channels I wanted from the first and only channel search I've done. (I may try to do that later-unless someone else already _knows for sure_ and tells us) Currently just trying to get completely through this and actually "field test" the whole thing.

Fourth: Once the dt250 is set up, then disconnect the output and plug into your TiVo into whatever input is available that you want to use. Also dont' forget to get out your IR controller cable plug it into IR control port on the back of your tivo and then place the IR transmitters over the IR sensor on the box, which the manual clearly and conveniently shows you where the sensor is at (slightly to the right behind a very small R?)Then you need to redo guided setup on the TiVo. Choose Cable as the source, nothing less and nothing more. *(EDIT: See thread link above for easier method)*As mentioned previously on this thread, find out an ATT U-verse zip code near you for program data(some reason this part took a while for me, maybe I'm just slow sometimes), for me they were not too far away and list virtually all channels correctly, save one or two independent channels that I didn't know even existed nor wanted to watch them. Once you find a good zip code, enter that into the tivo when it asks, then it will call tivo, and come back with a list of cable providers of which U-Verse should be one of them. Select it then continue on. Select yes, you have a cable box to control, then select Hughes (Same as another post stating to select Hughes satellite) as the cable box, select 'two digit entry', select 'enter after digits', then test it's code, which for me is 10020 (For Hughes:If I recall correctly-it was the only one it gave me) . Worked for me the first time (Wow!).

Sorry so long, trying to be thorough for everyone's benefit

My personal conclusions: Apex DT250 very easy to set up, currently have no known functional problems with it. Using the TiVo remote to tell the Tivo which tells the box to change the channel does involve a short delay before the channel actually comes up, roughly less than 5 seconds in my estimation. So no quick run through the channels. As near as I can tell you have to wait for it to bring up the next channel before it will advance again-(with the tivo remote) Probably easier to use your guide or input channel directly, assuming you ever actually watch live tv  I know I hardly ever do.

I'll try and keep checking back here if anyone has questions for me that I can try to answer. I tried to not be confusing yet give as much info as possible. For me, I already have an HDTV, but obviously wanted to keep my TiVo's functioning.

On a side note: My S1 does have lifetime and *TiVo is offering a discounted price to upgrade to an HD* (Refurbished) for $99 and Lifetime transfer for $299. *Check your units for available offers* with your TiVo service number-DO NOT give this number out to anyone. Though better than no offer, If I could afford $398, I'd probably have already bought one. Also, I only paid $299 originally for Product Lifetime (Back in 2002). Hmm ok, but I can buy another brand new to me unit (refurbished-the same as the upgrade offer) with secondary discounted Product Lifetime (IE I already have one unit on lifetime, thus second unit would already be) at $299 which totals $478.99. So, I'm worth keeping for only $80.99 off?? Now if they offered the $199 transfer rate (which they had in the past, but higher priced boxes) with $99 box, that would definitely be a sweeter deal at least. I'm not mad, just the offer doesn't really help that much at this time... Anyhew. I REALLY need to get to bed 

PS, Does what I'm saying make sense to you TiVo? Just curious on any thoughts Tivo employees might have, as I would think all series 1 owners w/Product Lifetime would summarize the same result. Again, just talking, not trying to bash anyone or anything: and again, I'm glad and very happy that TiVo is at least acknowledging that some maybe totally in the dark come Feb 2009 with our Series 1 (without unsupported workarounds anyway). Thanks!


----------



## David_NC

newskilz said:


> On a side note: My S1 does have lifetime and *TiVo is offering a discounted price to upgrade to an HD* (Refurbished) for $99 and Lifetime transfer for $299. *Check your units for available offers* with your TiVo service number-DO NOT give this number out to anyone. Though better than no offer, If I could afford $398, I'd probably have already bought one. Also, I only paid $299 originally for Product Lifetime (Back in 2002). Hmm ok, but I can buy another brand new to me unit (refurbished-the same as the upgrade offer) with secondary discounted Product Lifetime (IE I already have one unit on lifetime, thus second unit would already be) at $299 which totals $478.99. So, I'm worth keeping for only $80.99 off?? Now if they offered the $199 transfer rate (which they had in the past, but higher priced boxes) with $99 box, that would definitely be a sweeter deal at least. I'm not mad, just the offer doesn't really help that much at this time... Anyhew. I REALLY need to get to bed


You also have to consider the loss in value of the series 1 when you transfer the lifetime off of it. I wonder if they would sell you the HD for $99, and then let you buy a new lifetime subscription at the $299 second-unit price, keeping the lifetime on the series 1?


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## TiVoJedi

David_NC said:


> You also have to consider the loss in value of the series 1 when you transfer the lifetime off of it. I wonder if they would sell you the HD for $99, and then let you buy a new lifetime subscription at the $299 second-unit price, keeping the lifetime on the series 1?


I think that is what TiVo should do for OTA + satellite users since the TiVoHD doesn't allow satellite input at all. This way I could get my local's TiVo'd (in HD no less) and retain the ability to TiVo satellite programming.

Thank you *newskilz* for taking the time to write out your procedure. You've answered my previous post on a CECB other than RCA that can be used innately with a S1 TiVo for remote code zapping (I have a Phillips S1 too, so you just confirmed APEX will work for sure). Sounds like APEX would be the best to use for my OTA + satellite setup. Thanks!


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## newskilz

David_NC said:


> You also have to consider the loss in value of the series 1 when you transfer the lifetime off of it. I wonder if they would sell you the HD for $99, and then let you buy a new lifetime subscription at the $299 second-unit price, keeping the lifetime on the series 1?


Now that wouldn't be half bad either. I understand what you mean by depreciation in my Series 1 TiVo. Then again, it still does exactly what it's supposed to do and very well. Especially since it's been modded with a larger hard drive allowing 183 hours at the low quality setting.

I guess anyway we look at it, we will have to spend money in order to get the new stuff. I just don't see paying that much yet, I suppose another argument is that I would be also going from a single tuner to a dual tuner setup as well.


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## newskilz

TiVoJedi said:


> I think that is what TiVo should do for OTA + satellite users since the TiVoHD doesn't allow satellite input at all. This way I could get my local's TiVo'd (in HD no less) and retain the ability to TiVo satellite programming.
> 
> Thank you *newskilz* for taking the time to write out your procedure. You've answered my previous post on a CECB other than RCA that can be used innately with a S1 TiVo for remote code zapping (I have a Phillips S1 too, so you just confirmed APEX will work for sure). Sounds like APEX would be the best to use for my OTA + satellite setup. Thanks!


Glad I could help some, that's the idea here right?

Something other than RCA, yes that was going to be my third choice behind the Channel Master 7000, since my personal preference wanted S-Video, and preferred Smart Antenna. Analog Pass through is a bonus, though not sure as I'll ever actually use that feature.

Yeah, I've been wondering about that, TiVo hasn't supported satellite with their new boxes for a while now... makes me hope and wonder if their new boxes that they have in the plans will have this capability and when will it be out? In time for Christmas, by next Feb? Who knows at this point. Too bad they can't easily make them like the first TiVo's and can do satellite, cable and over the air.


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## magnus

Yep, I don't like the idea of paying the same price for what I could currently get lifetime for anyway. I'd only be saving $100 on the HD. So, by the time I got through doing that I might as well just buy the refurb HD and only pay $100 more for it. Then just sell the S1 to someone else.

I guess I'll just hold on to my S1 for a while.



newskilz said:


> Now that wouldn't be half bad either. I understand what you mean by depreciation in my Series 1 TiVo. Then again, it still does exactly what it's supposed to do and very well. Especially since it's been modded with a larger hard drive allowing 183 hours at the low quality setting.
> 
> I guess anyway we look at it, we will have to spend money in order to get the new stuff. I just don't see paying that much yet, I suppose another argument is that I would be also going from a single tuner to a dual tuner setup as well.


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## kyaces

Super dumb question from an almost electronic illiterate. What does the IR Blaster do and do I need it to attach digital converter box to S2 Tivo box for OTA tuning/recording only? Received Tivo e-mail couple of days ago but SUBMIT button for TSN didn't work so coudn't access specific info for our unit.


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## tvcn

newskilz said:


> Hi everyone, thought I'd share a little with you about the Apex DT250 ...


Thanks for your review. I have an analog TV and considering HDTV. How is picture quality on your LCD from Phillips S1 recordings? Brand/size of your LCD? When a 16:9 picture is broadcast, can the DT250 output a vertically stretched picture that is widened by your LCD back to the originally broadcast 16:9 format without any horizontal/vertical bars? If so, this would allow your Phillips S1 to record a 16:9 format (albeit compressed). I am guessing this might not work very well on larger HDTVs but maybe smaller ones ...


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## kingdomdude

bradm42 said:


> More interesting is this list of supported boxes (click the converter boxes tab)
> 
> # Insignia NS-DXA1
> # Venturer STB7766G
> # Magnavox TB100MW9
> # RCA DTA 800A
> # GE 22729
> # Zenith DTT900
> # Channel Master CM-7000
> # Lasonic LTA-260
> # Philco TB100HH9
> # Samsonic FT300A
> # Tivax STB-T9
> # Artec T3Apro


... blast... I just went and bought the Zenith DTT901... I wonder if they will support it too... or maybe its the same code. *crosses fingers*
Maybe TivoJerry has some insight?


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## ToddNeedsTiVo

kyaces said:


> Super dumb question from an almost electronic illiterate. What does the IR Blaster do and do I need it to attach digital converter box to S2 Tivo box for OTA tuning/recording only? Received Tivo e-mail couple of days ago but SUBMIT button for TSN didn't work so coudn't access specific info for our unit.


An IR blaster allows your TiVo to simulate the infrared signals normally generated by a device's handheld remote control in order to control that device. This is how a TiVo would change the channel on the digital converter box and control what it records from it. One positions the blaster near the IR sensor on the device being controlled.


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## Mikeguy

newskilz said:


> Hi everyone, thought I'd share a little with you about the Apex DT250.


Many thanks for your review. With so many converter boxes out there, typically of little-known names and hard to find in local stores, it's great to hear advice and recommendations. Hoepfully, others will post their words of wisdom as well.


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## kyaces

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> An IR blaster allows your TiVo to simulate the infrared signals normally generated by a device's handheld remote control in order to control that device. This is how a TiVo would change the channel on the digital converter box and control what it records from it. One positions the blaster near the IR sensor on the device being controlled.


Todd, I grew up in Johnston--small world! Is there an IR sensor on the S2 tivo box or would I have to buy that? I still have the IR blaster cables that come w/the unit.


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## dlt123

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> An IR blaster allows your TiVo to simulate the infrared signals normally generated by a device's handheld remote control in order to control that device. This is how a TiVo would change the channel on the digital converter box and control what it records from it. One positions the blaster near the IR sensor on the device being controlled.


I'm not sure if I understand this blaster idea either...

I have a S2 TIVO with my Cable companies coaxial line going into it and not a cable box...

I plan on dumping the cable company and just plugging my DTVPal or CM7000 DTV box into the TIVO antenna RF line in.

Do I need this  IR Control Cable Set to be able to change channels in my TIVO or will the TIVO change and be able to record by just using my existing TIVO remote control?

Note: See  IR Control Cable Set 1/3 way down the page..

If I do need the IR cable set, I am assuming that I would place one IR end if front of the IR on the front of my TIVO and then the other IR from the cable set in front of my DTV box IR port. Is this correct?

Note: You know the more I think about it and after reading this PDF, I think I understand this now... I'm not sure if this was posted here somewhere before, but here is How to hook up the TIVO to your DTV box... Sorry, if this is redundant.

Thanks in advance for fielding my question.
Dennis


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## classicsat

There is an IR sensor on the Series 2, but it is of no direct concern.
It is the IR blaster from the TiVo to the IR sensor on the digital box that is the point.

Any standalone Series 1 or 2 TiVo will have came with an IR blaster cable. It plugs into the IR out jack on the TiVo, and illuminates the sensor on the digital box. You can get replacement ones from TiVo, 3rd party ones, or make your own. 

As said, The TiVo will use the IR blaster to change channels on the box as needed (either from LiveTV, or to make a recording on), by emulating the original remote for the box. The TiVo remote doesn't control the box itself, just the TiVo and your TV (to power it on/off and adjust volume and input).


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## MickeS

Thanks to the "supported" list I finally applied for my converted box coupon, will get it in august. Hopefully the software update will be available by then.

Which box is the best?


----------



## cia_viewer

MickeS said:


> Thanks to the "supported" list I finally applied for my converted box coupon, will get it in august. Hopefully the software update will be available by then.
> 
> Which box is the best?


I like my Zenith DTT901 that I bought at Circuit City.

I have followed discussions about the Zenith DTT901 :
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1032622&page=13
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948767&page=70


----------



## newskilz

tvcn said:


> Thanks for your review. I have an analog TV and considering HDTV. How is picture quality on your LCD from Phillips S1 recordings?


My picture quality from the Phillips S1 to the tv is better than it was analog, the picture itself is crisper:generally the difference between good analog and digital OTA. I don't record in the highest setting so can't tell you "how well it compares to true HD" or anything, currently I record the second to lowest setting by default.



tvcn said:


> Brand/size of your LCD?


I have a Sharp Aquos 52" LC-52D92U- I got mine for about $500 less than any retail store was offering at the time.



tvcn said:


> When a 16:9 picture is broadcast, can the DT250 output a vertically stretched picture that is widened by your LCD back to the originally broadcast 16:9 format without any horizontal/vertical bars?


To your aspect ratio question if I understand you correctly: I'm not aware if I can stretch the picture vertically and then horizontally to completely fill my 16:9 screen with any combination of settings that I have between the converter box and my tv. In my case, with the DT250 set in 16:9 aspect it over-zooms the picture above and below my TV screen, effectively cutting oh about 1/2 to 1 inch off of the picture on top and on bottom and at the same time crunches in the sides????? Like my earlier post, it almost acts like the two aspect settings in the box are reversed. So for me at least, that is undesirable, and doesn't really affect me, because my TV can change the viewable picture 4 different ways, and I just select which one fills the screen the most/completely via my TV settings, leaving my converter box set to "Auto" at this point.



tvcn said:


> If so, this would allow your Phillips S1 to record a 16:9 format (albeit compressed). I am guessing this might not work very well on larger HDTVs but maybe smaller ones ...


Simply, yes you can record 16:9 ratio onto the tivo, and then render it on the tv in 16:9. Seems to be working well on my 52", but still early testing for me. When I watch widescreen format DVD's on my tv, there is always just a bit of horizontal bars, but not much and no vertical bars at all. I haven't played with it much to see how good HD content renders yet from the converter box, through the TiVo (via recording) and onto my tv. Hope to test that Sunday at some point. I know watching live tv, when comparing the tv's tuner picture to the TiVo's picture via the box, the format/aspect/how much it fills my screen is about the same (this bases solely on late night tv and probably no HD yet). Again, still testing, though I'm not too worried since I can still tweek the signal from the TiVo using my tv settings.

Hope I'm not confusing you. So again, basically yes you can record in 16:9 format and then display on your tv in 16:9 format, whether it can be done with NO bars at all, may be unlikely for me, but plan to find out. If I understand correctly, "widescreen movies" content is inherently slightly vertically narrower than any true 16:9 aspect TV. We'd have to look that up and right now I need to get some sleep, this insomnia is getting bad for me.

Did I answer what you were looking for? Let me know.

Update 7-13
I did some more playing around with the DT250 feed through my S1 onto the TV. With the combinations of viewable screen between my TV and the box picture settings, I've found for me with HD content, either I can set the converter to 'Auto' and my tv to 'S-Stretch' (Super Stretch?) resulting in two small horizontal bars but all source video is there: Or I can set the converter to 16:9 and use the Stretch setting on my tv and completely fill the screen with very little vertical cut off which is still 1/2 to 1 inch top and bottom. Any other combination for me either left thicker horizontal bars/horizontal and vertical bars, or rendered the picture using the complete TV screen but w/ the slight cut off affect of the picture, but also resulting in cutting about 2 inches off the top of TiVo's channel info that displays at the top of your screen-which would make it mostly unreadable because I couldn't read the first line of that window.

So in short, with my setup, you get either no picture cropping w/small horizontal bars or you can get full screen picture w/no bars but with a slight vertical cropping, but no cropping of TiVo's 'channel window'.

_Side Note:The DT250 does get a little warm to the touch on the bottom of the box, but not overly so, and figure its probably the internal power supply, since there is no 'pod' wall wart or anything external other than a normal plug._


----------



## tvcn

newskilz said:


> Did I answer what you were looking for? Let me know.


Yes, thanks for your help. What I was specifically trying to ask in my prior question was whether the DT250 can output anamorphic widescreen (I think this is the correct terminology from what I read at Wikipedia). Regardless, bottom line, you can render 16:9 on your tv recorded from your tivo, so that sounds good.


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## MickeS

cia_viewer said:


> I like my Zenith DTT901 that I bought at Circuit City.
> 
> I have followed discussions about the Zenith DTT901 :
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1032622&page=13
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948767&page=70


But that one is not on the TiVo "supported" list...


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## newskilz

MickeS said:


> But that one is not on the TiVo "supported" list...


My two cents. Your statement is true, but by the time you get your coupon there will most likely be additional boxes supported by Tivo, and my assumption/guess is that similar models will also become supported. In this case they already support the Zenith DTT900.


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## cia_viewer

cia_viewer said:


> I like my Zenith DTT901 that I bought at Circuit City.
> 
> I have followed discussions about the Zenith DTT901 :
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...032622&page=13
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...948767&page=70





MickeS said:


> But that one is not on the TiVo "supported" list...


The Digital Conversion works as well or better than older DTT900s.

With TiVo and DTT901 turned off you can view analog TV using the TV's tuner.


----------



## newskilz

tvcn said:


> Yes, thanks for your help. What I was specifically trying to ask in my prior question was whether the DT250 can output anamorphic widescreen (I think this is the correct terminology from what I read at Wikipedia). Regardless, bottom line, you can render 16:9 on your tv recorded from your tivo, so that sounds good.


Yes it does render wide screen 16:9 when viewing HD content so you have it correct. (Not sure as 'anamorphic' is the correct term since I believe that only applies to DVD's and their source footage)


----------



## newskilz

Copied from my earlier post:
Update 7-13
I did some more playing around with the DT250 feed through my S1 onto the TV. With the combinations of viewable screen between my TV and the box picture settings, I've found for me with HD content, either I can set the converter to 'Auto' and my tv to 'S-Stretch' (Super Stretch?) resulting in two small horizontal bars but all source video is there: Or I can set the converter to 16:9 and use the Stretch setting on my tv and completely fill the screen with very little vertical cut off which is still 1/2 to 1 inch top and bottom. Any other combination for me either left thicker horizontal bars/horizontal and vertical bars, or rendered the picture using the complete TV screen but w/ the slight cut off affect of the picture, but also resulting in cutting about 2 inches off the top of TiVo's channel info that displays at the top of your screen-which would make it mostly unreadable because I couldn't read the first line of that window.

So in short, with my setup (see earlier post), you can get either no picture cropping w/small horizontal bars or you can get full screen picture w/no bars but with a slight vertical cropping, but no cropping of TiVo's 'channel window'.

_Side Note:The DT250 does get a little warm to the touch on the bottom of the box, but not overly so, and figure its probably the internal power supply, since there is no 'pod' wall wart or anything external other than a normal plug._


----------



## scandia101

Adam1115 said:


> scandia101 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The converter boxes will work in exactly the same way that cable boxes have worked with Tivo since the very first tivo was introduced, provided that Tivo will update the software with the necessary information. At this point there is no reason to think that Tivo won't provide the update.
> 
> 
> 
> No reason? OTA ATSC boxes have been out for years and no Series 2's support them.
> 
> What makes you think they will change that?
> 
> Personally I think you are SOL with tuning OTA on a series two, even with a converter. You'll have to use cable or a TiVo HD.
Click to expand...

You were saying?


----------



## rscheff

I just signed up on this post and I have not thoroughly read every post on this subject so I may have missed some important points. To those who say that the digital switch will probably be delayed, they are wrong. My cable company already switched on 7/8/08 with very little fanfare and caught a lot of people off guard. As far as how will it affect TIVO? I no longer have dual tuner ability. I do receive all the channels, except HD because I do not yet have a HD TV. I had numerous problems hooking up though because TIVO and my cable co. (RCN) had different ideas on how to hook up all the new boxes I got from the cable co. (they tried to charge me $3 a month for the boxes but I have a signed 2 year contract for a specified price so they could not charge me, at this time). I have contacted TIVO about the situation but they have not responded (via e-mail). On the phone they just said, "Sorry, but only one tuner is digital, the other is Analog so you will not have dual tuner ability. I don't know about everyone else but that is one of the reasons I bought TIVO, the ability to watch one channel while recording another. While searching the TIVO site for solutions I did find a Q&A site that said TIVO was working with cable companys to solve the problem and that the cable companys will be supplying a box "later this year" that will solve the problem. As another poster said, the 2 agencies are batteling over supplying customers with the same service so why would the cable companys work with TIVO to "solve the problem". In fact when I was talking to a tech. with RCN they suggested I purchase their recording service as a solution to the problem. Obviously I said, "Why would want to pay for another service when I am only half way through a service I already paid for?" I do not think we will see any help from TIVO

I don't know what the solution is but if anyone has one I'd like to know either through this post or e-mail.

Oh, I forgot to say what TIVO I had. It is the "series 2 DT *Digital* video recorder"


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## TiVoJedi

So will the Zenith DTT901 work with TiVo series 1 "fresh out of the box"? My Circuit City had quite a few today. Best Buy also had several of the APEX. I am sure from this thread that the APEX will work, but my understanding is that the Zenith has the better tuning for range\stability while the APEX works without question for the remote zapping (no software update required) and it gives smart antenna possibility plus an S-video port (which I couldn't use as my satellite receiver is using that in the TiVo now). 

I am thinking the APEX may be better to go with because I could use the f-connector to feed into the TiVo AND an S-video to the TV. In this way I could watch live local TV on my TV set while recording something on the TiVo from the satellite tuner.


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## Shawn95GT

rscheff said:


> To those who say that the digital switch will probably be delayed, they are wrong. My cable company already switched on 7/8/08 with very little fanfare and caught a lot of people off guard.


FWIW - this has absolutely nothing to do with DTV / ATSC broadcast or the February 17, 2009 switch-over.

Your cable company simply decided to go digital. There is no mandate for them to do so.

-Shawn


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## classicsat

rscheff said:


> My cable company already switched on 7/8/08 with very little fanfare and caught a lot of people off guard. As far as how will it affect TIVO? I no longer have dual tuner ability.


Exactly. The Series 2 DT requires analog cable for both tuners oin the Series 2 DT to have something to record.
Only one encoder can record from a box. With a loss of analog cable, you will lost the analog tuners on the Series 2 DT. It is not TiVos fault that your cable provider turn off the analog needed for Dual Tuners to work on that model.



> While searching the TIVO site for solutions I did find a Q&A site that said TIVO was working with cable companys to solve the problem and that the cable companys will be supplying a box "later this year" that will solve the problem.


The "later this year" box is the Tuning Adapter for SDV on the Cablecard units. It will not help your Series 2 DT.

Really, the only solution to get Dual Tuners back is to upgrade to one of the HD cablecard models, which have two digital tuners built in. The Series 2 DT has no digital tuners at all and can rely only on one external digital cable or satellite box to get digital programming.


> As another poster said, the 2 agencies are batteling over supplying customers with the same service so why would the cable companys work with TIVO to "solve the problem".


1. So they can get something working soon (for SDV on UDCP Cablecard boxes, such as TiVo). 
2. They are trying something on their own, so The FCC or even Congress doesn't force something worse on them.



> Oh, I forgot to say what TIVO I had. It is the "series 2 DT *Digital* video recorder"


Like any TiVo is an Analog video recorder. Like any Series 1/2 Standalone, it records analog signals from outside the box, digitally inside, and plays them back analog again.


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## rscheff

I've learned more about this issue from the few posts on this site than 6 calls and 2 e-mails to TIVO. I thank all that responded to my dilemna and gave me an education. Shawn95GT stated,


> Your cable company simply decided to go digital. There is no mandate for them to do so.


 That is not what several techs at RCN said. They said that the federal government was mandating this move to digital and they had to start sometime so they chose my town to start in. Also Shawn95GT said,


> FWIW - this has absolutely nothing to do with DTV / ATSC broadcast or the February 17, 2009 switch-over.


 I was informed that DTV was an abbreviation for Digital Television and that the difference between Analog and Digital is merely a difference in coding and it is indeed being mandated by the government. I'm not doubting what shawn said because I do not know and I am getting so much information that is contradictory. As a solution Classicsat said,


> Really, the only solution to get Dual Tuners back is to upgrade to one of the HD cablecard models, which have two digital tuners built in.


 Again on numerous conversations with TIVO techs not a one of them said anything about upgrading.

Again, I am not doubting anything that anyone said on this site, in fact I believe that the answers here are probably more accurate than one's received by TIVO and I appreciate the education.

It appears though that I will probably not recover my 6 months of TIVO subscription since TIVO is not even responding.


----------



## Shawn95GT

Everything you never wanted to know about the digital transition:

https://www.dtv2009.gov/

You'll notice it's all about off-air. In the Phoenix market Cox is running ads to the effect of 'if you have cable, don't worry about it'.


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## newskilz

TiVoJedi said:


> So will the Zenith DTT901 work with TiVo series 1 "fresh out of the box"? My Circuit City had quite a few today. Best Buy also had several of the APEX. I am sure from this thread that the APEX will work, but my understanding is that the Zenith has the better tuning for range\stability while the APEX works without question for the remote zapping (no software update required) and it gives smart antenna possibility plus an S-video port (which I couldn't use as my satellite receiver is using that in the TiVo now).


With you for the most part. IIRC, no one has actually done a side by side comparison of those two boxes; so I wouldn't know if one does have better tuning or not. If you just want the plain F connector, then either one will do the job, since all boxes have an F connector as well as the composite connections. Also IIRC, the Zenith box will work with remote zapping as well, per previous posts.



TiVoJedi said:


> I am thinking the APEX may be better to go with because I could use the f-connector to feed into the TiVo AND an S-video to the TV. In this way I could watch live local TV on my TV set while recording something on the TiVo from the satellite tuner.


You may not need to use the S-Video now, but what about in the future? What if your setup changes? How about the Smart Antenna? Same thing, sometime in the future you _might_ want to be able to use it? Those were my thoughts and why I went with the Apex DT250, a little "future proofing" if you will. Now whether I actually use Smart Antenna, time will tell since I pick up all the channels I know about and want already. But I did want the S-Video, and now that I have S-video from tuner through TiVo and that to the TV, the picture is definitely better than it was with the F connector.

Good luck with your choice.


----------



## bicker

rscheff said:


> Shawn95GT stated, That is not what several techs at RCN said. They said that the federal government was mandating this move to digital and they had to start sometime so they chose my town to start in.


That's not actually true. The federal government gave RCN two choices, the other being to *retain *analog service. They simply chose not to.

AND chose to start their conversion with you.



rscheff said:


> I'm not doubting what shawn said because I do not know and I am getting so much information that is contradictory.


The folks at RCN are telling you what they thought would make your inquiry go away quicker. Folks here have no vested interest either way, so we're telling you the truth.


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## snedecor

TiVoJedi said:


> So will the Zenith DTT901 work with TiVo series 1 "fresh out of the box"? My Circuit City had quite a few today. Best Buy also had several of the APEX. I am sure from this thread that the APEX will work, but my understanding is that the Zenith has the better tuning for range\stability while the APEX works without question for the remote zapping (no software update required) and it gives smart antenna possibility plus an S-video port (which I couldn't use as my satellite receiver is using that in the TiVo now).
> 
> I am thinking the APEX may be better to go with because I could use the f-connector to feed into the TiVo AND an S-video to the TV. In this way I could watch live local TV on my TV set while recording something on the TiVo from the satellite tuner.


Unless your Series 1 is hacked (access to shell/TiVoWeb, etc.) I believe you will be out of luck.

Gleaning what has been said by Tivo employees (Pony and Jerry), 
1) There will not be a new software version for series 1 for any reason.
2) TiVo has decided not to do a custom fake "cable" lineup for Antenna markets, which would have, for example, changed channel 13 to 131 to hit the sub-channels on the CECB's.

Tivo is offering some deals for both Series 1 and series 2 users to upgrade to TiVoHD. Search these boards for the web site. You type in your service number, and it tells you what TiVo is planning to do, and what your "special upgrade offer" is.

If your Series 1 is hacked (better yet, is hacked and has network access), there are success stories on this board. I have a Series 1 hacked with network access, and I have an RCA box working to get the .1 subchannels for all the digital channels in my area.

Good Luck,

Snedecor


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## ecs132

Again, I know this is not OTA related, but it has been brought up several times throughout this thread. The following is from Cox NoVa's site.

"Cox recognizes that some customers will still have analog-only TVs at this cut-off date. Therefore, Cox will continue to offer analog broadcast signals for at least three years after this deadline for those customers that have not upgraded all TVs to Cox Digital Cable. The signal will be down-converted from its digital format, enabling customers to receive digital broadcast programming in an analog format."


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## tevoisseur

I'm not sure why that would be any different than creating a special guide data for a handful of users. I've heard that they do that in cases where people have satellite that is pushed down from their apartment building.



snedecor said:


> 2) TiVo has decided not to do a custom fake "cable" lineup for Antenna markets, which would have, for example, changed channel 13 to 131 to hit the sub-channels on the CECB's.


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## snedecor

tevoisseur said:


> I'm not sure why that would be any different than creating a special guide data for a handful of users. I've heard that they do that in cases where people have satellite that is pushed down from their apartment building.


Here's the quote:

Sorry, but we are not going to put an infrastructure like this in place.
__________________
Jerry
TiVo CS Engineer & Grillmeister
TiVo Ninja


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## tevoisseur

Yep, I saw that. I'm just saying that it should be no different than what they currently do.


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## TiVoJedi

snedecor said:


> Unless your Series 1 is hacked (access to shell/TiVoWeb, etc.) I believe you will be out of luck.


Yes, I hacked it in 2002 when I first got the Turbonet card. 

So I just need to know if the Zenith DTT901 can tune the subchannels directly without a dash or some other character (i.e I can press 2-7-2 and it goes to 27.2, which is my CW channel, 27.1 being CBS).

I finally installed TiVowebPlus (had been using the original TiVoweb since the beginning) and see the channelmap system area. In theory I could get the Zenith (which has the better tuner) and use TiVoWebPlus to remap whatever TiVo thinks is my CW to 272, right?

Also did I understand it correctly that by remapping the channel, whenever TiVo changes my lineup, I will have to repeat the Channelmap settings in TiVoWebPlus? I guess I am torn between the Zenith and APEX. Which one should I get for the least trouble with trying this homebrew solution?


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## jlac839

I just tried pressing 541 and 542 on the remote for my Zenith DTT900. It correctly went to 54-1 and 54-2 respectively. Then I tried 041 to get to 4-1 and 042 to get 4-2 and 043 to get 4-3. All of these worked fine. Pressing 41 caused the box to attempt to tune to 41-1 which is not a channel I receive so the leading 0 is necessary for stations between 1 and 9 (if you receive channels in that range) and wish to provide a subchannel number. Interestingly, if I just pressed 1 it went to 11-1 since that's the first station tuned that starts with a 1 in my area.

Since the DTT901 is an upgrade to the 900, I surmise that it will work the same way. However, to be sure, perhaps some kind soul who owns a 901 could test it too?


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## snedecor

jlac839 said:


> I just tried pressing 541 and 542 on the remote for my Zenith DTT900. It correctly went to 54-1 and 54-2 respectively. Then I tried 041 to get to 4-1 and 042 to get 4-2 and 043 to get 4-3. All of these worked fine. Pressing 41 caused the box to attempt to tune to 41-1 which is not a channel I receive so the leading 0 is necessary for stations between 1 and 9 (if you receive channels in that range) and wish to provide a subchannel number. Interestingly, if I just pressed 1 it went to 11-1 since that's the first station tuned that starts with a 1 in my area.
> 
> Since the DTT901 is an upgrade to the 900, I surmise that it will work the same way. However, to be sure, perhaps some kind soul who owns a 901 could test it too?


There is a web site that has what one person did to get his Zenith CECB to work with a series 1. it is:

http://www.gratisoft.us/tivo/dtv.html

It very similar to what I did with an RCA CECB and my hacked Series 1.

The series 1 thinks it is controlling a (RCA in my case) cable box. The lineup was chosen from a local cable operator, one that had all the locals (but not necessarily at the right channels) . The channels were re-mapped just as you tested above, using TiVoWebPlus (which crashes for me sometimes, dunno why). The fact that it was a cable box seemed to tell TiVo that 3 digit channels were used. Tivo pads with zeroes, so for my channel 2.1 digital, I remapped to 21. TiVo sends 021 and the CECB tunes to subchannel 2.1.

However, whenever there is a lineup change, all my remappings are lost, and I have to re-do the mappings. Oh well, the price for progress.

Good luck!


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## TiVoJerry

tevoisseur said:


> Yep, I saw that. I'm just saying that it should be no different than what they currently do.


It actually is. In the case of a custom lineup, we still have a reporting agency (even if it's an apartment complex) who provides us an official lineup card and contact for Tribune Media Services to work with directly. If that provider changes anything, it is their responsibility to contact TMS and provide an update. If a customer reports the change through us, we notify TMS who then contacts the provider to confirm before enacting a change.

In this case, you're asking TMS to keep track of two station numbers for one station ID. This would require manual handling for either every single antenna headend in the United States, or only those currently occupied by a Series1 owner, so that a relatively very small number of people could implement a workaround to keep their equipment working.

Then there are the support calls we might have to take for channel changing issues if a customer purchases a converter model that does not work well with the workaround. I believe some converters, for example, will tune to 21-1 if you only enter "2 1", but that might cause a little grief if you wanted to tune to 2-1.

Perhaps I'm off base with my example, but the bottom line is that it is not practical for us and TMS to commit to a workaround that requires manual handling on a large scale.


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## bluespecials

Dose anyone have a date when TIVO will give the software updates? Their website say Summer 2008.


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## TiVoJerry

bluespecials, we do not like to promise specific dates in case something comes up that causes a delay. We've done that it the past and it came back to bite us, sometimes in more ways than one. 

When we do begin the release to the Series2 population, I'm pretty sure we'd front load it to go out to our known antenna customers. Even if that weren't to happen, there will be a priority page that goes up once the initial CS Ramp period is complete so that anyone, including those not currently showing in our system as using antenna, can request the software sooner.

And I'm thinking that we'd probably even keep a close eye on important threads, such as this one , and proactively notify our esteemed forum customers so they can get in on all the goodness ASAP.:up:


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## rainbow

TiVoJerry said:


> ..............When we do begin the release to the Series2 population, I'm pretty sure we'd front load it to go out to our known antenna customers. Even if that weren't to happen, there will be a priority page that goes up once the initial CS Ramp period is complete so that anyone, including those not currently showing in our system as using antenna, can request the software sooner.


That is what I would want, even though I am not using an antenna as I have cable. Who knows, at some point I might decide to do rabbit ears for my series 2 unit for whatever reason, and I want to have the option.

What I really would want is to be able to transfer my lifetime from my 2004 series 2 to my new series 3 that is in transit for delivery. At this time, since I have a series 2 and a series 3, both with lifetime, the idea of putting out another $300 for another lifetime is just a bit much for me right now.

It all just gets a bit confusing, so i went ahead and bought the 2nd series 3 in preparation for HD. Don't know when I'll get an HDTV, however. (does this sound like a cart before the horse thing)

If anyone has a suggestion for how i can get my series 2 lifetime transferred to a new series 3, i am all ears


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## gastrof

Shawn95GT said:


> Everything you never wanted to know about the digital transition:
> 
> https://www.dtv2009.gov/
> 
> You'll notice it's all about off-air. In the Phoenix market Cox is running ads to the effect of 'if you have cable, don't worry about it'.


The only problem with that is that it can also mean "We'll get rid of all analog channels, and then force you to use a cable box from now on."

Even if at first they're free, you KNOW the boxes will end up having a fee attached. And then there's the matter of an older TiVo controlling a cable box...not always a sure thing.


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## classicsat

rainbow said:


> If anyone has a suggestion for how i can get my series 2 lifetime transferred to a new series 3, i am all ears


Right now, there is no direct way.

The only way is a round about way, by purchasing the MSD Product Lifetime, and selling the Series 2.

Or you can wait and see if they will offer a transfer offer.


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## tevoisseur

Ok, thanks for that info Jerry. I wondered why this would not be practical. On the surface, it would seem easy enough until you think about what Tribune would need to do as well.

Anyway, I guess the only real workaround is going to be a channel remap with a hacked box (on the S1).



TiVoJerry said:


> It actually is. In the case of a custom lineup, we still have a reporting agency (even if it's an apartment complex) who provides us an official lineup card and contact for Tribune Media Services to work with directly. If that provider changes anything, it is their responsibility to contact TMS and provide an update. If a customer reports the change through us, we notify TMS who then contacts the provider to confirm before enacting a change.
> 
> In this case, you're asking TMS to keep track of two station numbers for one station ID. This would require manual handling for either every single antenna headend in the United States, or only those currently occupied by a Series1 owner, so that a relatively very small number of people could implement a workaround to keep their equipment working.
> 
> Then there are the support calls we might have to take for channel changing issues if a customer purchases a converter model that does not work well with the workaround. I believe some converters, for example, will tune to 21-1 if you only enter "2 1", but that might cause a little grief if you wanted to tune to 2-1.
> 
> Perhaps I'm off base with my example, but the bottom line is that it is not practical for us and TMS to commit to a workaround that requires manual handling on a large scale.


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## rainbow

classicsat said:


> Right now, there is no direct way.
> 
> The only way is a round about way, by purchasing the MSD Product Lifetime, and selling the Series 2.
> 
> Or you can wait and see if they will offer a transfer offer.


Thanks for your response. 

Something to ponder.


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## taronga

There shouldn't be any problem with a S2DT using a converter box alongside analog cable, should there? Time Warner here has particularly bad reception with several local channels, and I'd love to get cleaner recordings.


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## NotVeryWitty

taronga said:


> There shouldn't be any problem with a S2DT using a converter box alongside analog cable, should there? Time Warner here has particularly bad reception with several local channels, and I'd love to get cleaner recordings.


Tivo has said they will not support the OTA converter boxes on an S2DT.


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## tkoyn

tvcn said:


> Yes, thanks for your help. What I was specifically trying to ask in my prior question was whether the DT250 can output anamorphic widescreen (I think this is the correct terminology from what I read at Wikipedia). Regardless, bottom line, you can render 16:9 on your tv recorded from your tivo, so that sounds good.


The DT250 is not on the list of Tivo supported converters? Can the others also handle 16:9.

I would like my Tivo series 2 to capture over-the-air 16:9 programs stretched vertically to fill the screen and re-record onto my DVD recorder, and then play back either on my regular 4:3 TV by setting its mode to re-letterbox it, or play on a 16:9 LCD completely filling the screen. Which Tivo supported converters should I be looking at?


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## TiVoJedi

I decided on the APEX DT250 CECB for my S1 TiVo at Best Buy after work today. I hadn't had a chance to try to make it flirt with my TiVo yet, but played around with it. The s-video quality is awesome. I won't use the s-video with the TiVo though because the s-video connector on my TiVo is occupied by my satellite receiver. Instead I think I will plug the Apex into my TiVo using other connections and send the s-video direct to the TV. In this way my TiVo can record off satellite and I can watch live TV locally from the APEX on an input on the TV. Now what remote code is for the APEX again? *looks through back pages of this thread*

EDIT: OH yeah it was Newskilz with this post here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6471585#post6471585
Remote code for Apex -> Hughes 10020
Thanks Newskilz! I'll try it when I have a chance.

Hopefully guided setup for cable + satellite isn't horribly long. I am using a Turbonet card for access,so maybe it won't be too painful.


----------



## TiVoJedi

Just discovered that the Apex cannot tune subchannels by pressing digit-digit-digit. You have to press the dash button to tune a subchannel (TiVo isn't going to know how to do that). That's really a bummer for me because I was hoping to channel map CWKYT to WBKI, as I get perfect signal for the CWKYT subchannel than I do from WBKI; which only tunes when the sun goes down and radiation isn't blotting out the signal. I suspect I can't return the APEX to Best Buy and get the $40 coupon credit returned and go to Circuit City and get the Zenith instead, eh? Time to find another neighbor who will order me a coupon maybe (the postal service lost mine I requested on 1.1.08 and the government absolutely REFUSES to send me replacements.. they claim "not our screw-up, file a complaint with your postal branch".)


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## Shawn95GT

The S3 / THD does 'dash', FWIW. It uses the 30 sec skip button for '-'.


----------



## interestingstuff

So I see this "list from tivo.com" in this thread on compatible CECB boxes, but I can't find the list on tivo.com Can someone post the url and/or tell how to step through the menus to find the list? I want to read the associated text, the list of uncompatible ones, and any related data and have been unable to find the list so far myself. 

Thanks

(AND WHEW! I'm so glad the Apex dt250 are FINALLY out on the market now... time to go to best buy tomorrow! (my coupons exprire in a few days... now I'm not sure if I should get two apex's.. or one apex.. and one other brand...)


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## tkoyn

I keep hearing about the Apex DT-250. Is Tivo going to support it (I didn't see it on the Tivo list)?

I would like my Tivo series 2 to capture over-the-air 16:9 programs stretched vertically to fill the screen and re-record onto my DVD recorder, and then play back either on my regular 4:3 TV by setting its mode to re-letterbox it, or play on a 16:9 LCD completely filling the screen. Which Tivo supported converters should I be looking at that could do this?


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## classicsat

The list is at. Click on the convertor tab.
http://www3.tivo.com/setupandsupport/digitaltrans/digitaltrans.html

Unless they cannot get it to work reliably, I'd bet they at least try.


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## TiVoJedi

interestingstuff said:


> (AND WHEW! I'm so glad the Apex dt250 are FINALLY out on the market now... time to go to best buy tomorrow! (my coupons exprire in a few days... now I'm not sure if I should get two apex's.. or one apex.. and one other brand...)


If you are planning to use a hacked S1 Tivo it is looking like the APEX is fine, however if you want to map subchannels to other channel numbers it is looking like that won't work with this particular CECB because the TiVo isn't going to know it needs to send a dash for the CECB to tune that subchannel.


----------



## TiVoJedi

On a thread at AVS a poster commented that the CM-7000 CECB uses Pioneer cable box remote control codes for channel changes. I have access to a CM-7000 and think maybe I should use that instead with my S1 TiVo (instead of the Apex) if I can map subchannels to other channel designations in the cable lineup. It's true that the guide info would be totally wrong for these subchannels, however manual recordings could be setup as the CM-7000 allows digit-digit-digit channel tuning (no dash needed). TiVo should be able to send the 3 digits to tune these channels and subsequently that means I could record the subchannels in addition to my standard OTA affiliate channels. Bonus!


----------



## keraba

Regarding the new support of digital converters on series 2's, for anyone who has tried it, does it support the subchannels ? Do they show up in the program guide ? Is it pretty easy to set-up ? Maybe just specify the model of converter that you have ?

Thanks, just wanted to make sure before bothering buying one


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## CuriousMark

keraba said:


> Regarding the new support of digital converters on series 2's, for anyone who has tried it, does it support the subchannels ? Do they show up in the program guide ? Is it pretty easy to set-up ? Maybe just specify the model of converter that you have ?
> 
> Thanks, just wanted to make sure before bothering buying one


The new support isn't out yet. There will be an update to the TiVo software when it comes. Meanwhile, at least we know which boxes will be supported when it comes, though I think that list is not as complete as it may be later.

If you buy off that list, you should be pretty safe.

Personally I am looking at getting one of the Apex DT250 boxes even though it is not on the list. Best Buy is selling them, there will be a lot of them out there, so I hope they will be supported too.


----------



## TiVoJerry

keraba said:


> Regarding the new support of digital converters on series 2's, for anyone who has tried it, does it support the subchannels ? Do they show up in the program guide ? Is it pretty easy to set-up ? Maybe just specify the model of converter that you have ?
> 
> Thanks, just wanted to make sure before bothering buying one


CuriousMark beat me to the punch while I was composing. He is correct that the "new" support has not yet been rolled out. When it does, subchannels will definitely be supported and displayed in the guide.

Setup may be a bit trickier than other set top boxes. You will need to perform a channel scan to determine which channels you receive *before * you perform IR tests with the DVR. The converter will not know which channels to tune to until that scan is performed. We're putting in a screen in guided setup with this warning.

There is also a Auto OFF functionality (energy saver, whatever it may be called by each manufacturer) that you'll want to disable so that the converter stays on continually. You'll miss recordings otherwise.



CuriousMark said:


> Personally I am looking at getting one of the Apex DT250 boxes even though it is not on the list. Best Buy is selling them, there will be a lot of them out there, so I hope they will be supported too.


We just started testing the Apex models so we'll see, but things are looking good so far.


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## jrm01

CuriousMark said:


> Personally I am looking at getting one of the Apex DT250 boxes even though it is not on the list. Best Buy is selling them, there will be a lot of them out there, so I hope they will be supported too.


The APEX model is a big improvement over the original Insignia at BB. It's advantages over the Insignia are:

1) s-video
2) analog passthru
3) better remote
4) support smart-antenna
5) reportedly better tuning

BB rolled out 40,000 of them today to their stores with a similar batch for next week.


----------



## ronniejay

TiVoJerry said:


> CuriousMark beat me to the punch while I was composing. He is correct that the "new" support has not yet been rolled out. When it does, subchannels will definitely be supported and displayed in the guide.
> 
> Setup may be a bit trickier than other set top boxes. You will need to perform a channel scan to determine which channels you receive *before * you perform IR tests with the DVR. The converter will not know which channels to tune to until that scan is performed. We're putting in a screen in guided setup with this warning.
> 
> There is also a Auto OFF functionality (energy saver, whatever it may be called by each manufacturer) that you'll want to disable so that the converter stays on continually. You'll miss recordings otherwise.
> 
> We just started testing the Apex models so we'll see, but things are looking good so far.


Will TOSHIBA series 2 tivo boxes on free basic service work on what you are testing now?


----------



## ronniejay

TiVoJedi said:


> Just discovered that the Apex cannot tune subchannels by pressing digit-digit-digit. You have to press the dash button to tune a subchannel (TiVo isn't going to know how to do that). That's really a bummer for me because I was hoping to channel map CWKYT to WBKI, as I get perfect signal for the CWKYT subchannel than I do from WBKI; which only tunes when the sun goes down and radiation isn't blotting out the signal. I suspect I can't return the APEX to Best Buy and get the $40 coupon credit returned and go to Circuit City and get the Zenith instead, eh? Time to find another neighbor who will order me a coupon maybe (the postal service lost mine I requested on 1.1.08 and the government absolutely REFUSES to send me replacements.. they claim "not our screw-up, file a complaint with your postal branch".)


Read somewhere that retailers are experiencing returns from customers and may now have a way to refund on the converter card the $40. Previous policy was to take the card from customer at purchase and discard. Now they should let you keep the card. It may have been Circuit City???


----------



## wmcbrine

I bought one box at Best Buy, and one at Target, and neither tried to confiscate my card. That was more than a month ago.


----------



## tkoyn

TiVoJerry said:


> We just started testing the Apex models so we'll see, but things are looking good so far.


Thanks for your reply. Looks like a good box and I hope it will work. When do you think it will be known whether the Apex DT250 will go on the support list or the unsupported list? When is the next update of the list itself planned? When do you think the software update will be released? And will I get the software if my Tivo is setup for cable TV at the time of release (which I plan to kick in favor of my new antenna in the attic when I have Tivo support)?

Thank you


----------



## rocko

tkoyn said:


> Thanks for your reply. Looks like a good box and I hope it will work. When do you think it will be known whether the Apex DT250 will go on the support list or the unsupported list? When is the next update of the list itself planned? When do you think the software update will be released? And will I get the software if my Tivo is setup for cable TV at the time of release (which I plan to kick in favor of my new antenna in the attic when I have Tivo support)?
> 
> Thank you


----------



## classicsat

ronniejay said:


> Will TOSHIBA series 2 tivo boxes on free basic service work on what you are testing now?


There is no reason they should not be compatible with the upgrade and the convertor boxes.


----------



## TiVoJedi

wmcbrine said:


> I bought one box at Best Buy, and one at Target, and neither tried to confiscate my card. That was more than a month ago.


Best Buy tried to confiscate my remaining card this last Thursday. I insisted they let me keep it and the cashier girl gave a snide look with the expression "whatever for?, this guy is crazy".


----------



## steve614

Why would anyone want to keep their coupon? Isn't it rendered useless once it is scanned?


----------



## TiVoJedi

steve614 said:


> Why would anyone want to keep their coupon? Isn't it rendered useless once it is scanned?


The possibility exists that on the event of a return, the $40 credit can be loaded back on the coupon card and used somewhere else.


----------



## tkoyn

Of the boxes already on the supported list, is the ChannelMaster the only one with an S Video output?


----------



## bradm42

tkoyn said:


> Of the boxes already on the supported list, is the ChannelMaster the only one with an S Video output?


Yeah, it looks like the only other box that currently has svideo is the Apex box which isn;t currently on the list (but may be soon).

Here's a good list comparing all of the boxes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units


----------



## newskilz

TiVoJedi said:


> If you are planning to use a hacked S1 Tivo it is looking like the APEX is fine, however if you want to map subchannels to other channel numbers it is looking like that won't work with this particular CECB because the TiVo isn't going to know it needs to send a dash for the CECB to tune that subchannel.


I believe there are many converter boxes requiring the dash, and a few on the supported list with that requirement, from my understanding. So the argument of needing to send a dash, in theory, won't be a reason the box won't be supported in due time. Otherwise good point if trying to do a complete hack and get sub-channels, before the support update for S2's.


----------



## restart88

steve614 said:


> Why would anyone want to keep their coupon? Isn't it rendered useless once it is scanned?


When I got my 2nd box I mentioned that one day the cards may have collector value in part since everybody is turning in their used cards and the guy said just keep it.

It's my cheap hobby to collect stored value cards like phone cards, debit cards, & such. Hey, it beats bottle caps.


----------



## interestingstuff

TiVoJedi said:


> If you are planning to use a hacked S1 Tivo it is looking like the APEX is fine, however if you want to map subchannels to other channel numbers it is looking like that won't work with this particular CECB because the TiVo isn't going to know it needs to send a dash for the CECB to tune that subchannel.


No, I don't have a series 1, nor a hacked tivo. I have (well, I have one, and my mom has one) two series 2s.. I believe they are 540s. (I thought that data was in my signature, but I see it's not complete..) I'm planning on using them for this, unless I can get a decent lifetime transfer deal to a new HD Tivo box.

speaking of which I'm wondering what people might think are the top 3 CECBs..

I already got a GE 22729 -- and I was planning on getting two APEXes.. but if they have drawbacks and are not yet TIVO supported, perhaps I should get one APEX and one other box. Any suggestions? (My two coupons expire in less than a week.)

One thing neither of my boxes have is an external power supply (feature "E" on the wikipedia CECB comparison page) -- which might be helpful for my mom's RV or for when I go off-grid/solar/wind powered -- I might then be able to run the CECB with DC power.

thanks


----------



## David_NC

interestingstuff said:


> One thing neither of my boxes have is an external power supply (feature "E" on the wikipedia CECB comparison page) -- which might be helpful for my mom's RV or for when I go off-grid/solar/wind powered -- I might then be able to run the CECB with DC power.
> 
> thanks


The comparison chart at ezdigitaltv shows the voltage of the external power supply:

http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Additional_Features_Matrix.html


----------



## tkoyn

I am noticing that some of the boxes on the Tivo support list have apparently been replaced with newer models, which I do not know if they are supported:

Insignia NS-DXA1 is supported, but Insignia NS-DXA1-APT is offered at Best Buy.

RCA DTA 800A is supported, but RCA DTA800B1 is offered at Walmart.

Zenith DTT900 is supported, but DTT901 is offered at Circuit City.

And I am still wondering about the Apex DT250 (available at Best Buy), since that seems to be the best box of them all from what I read, with S video out, analog pass thru, Smart Antenna, and features for setting aspect ratios.

Seems the Tivo engineers need to test with the latest currently available boxes so that people who have expiring coupons now know what ones to consider.

TivoJerry or other Tivo insiders, what do you think? And any more progress on testing with the Apex DT250?


----------



## jrm01

The NS-DXA1-APT is an upgraded model that includes analog pass-thru, 2-channel stereo and aspect control. It does not, however have s-video and I don't think it has smart-antenna support that the Apex has.


----------



## wmcbrine

tkoyn said:


> Seems the Tivo engineers need to test with the latest currently available boxes so that people who have expiring coupons now know what ones to consider.


Formally speaking, they should; but as far as I know, all those models are minor tweaks of the listed ones, so they should work.


----------



## TiVoJerry

We're constantly adding new models to our testing as time permits but we may not notice when the "latest and greatest" hits the shelves. I would expect minor revision numbers to behave just as well as the original. 

The Apex seems fine at this point in time but reliability over time takes....well, time.


----------



## restart88

tkoyn said:


> I am noticing that some of the boxes on the Tivo support list have apparently been replaced with newer models, which I do not know if they are supported:
> 
> Insignia NS-DXA1 is supported, but Insignia NS-DXA1-APT is offered at Best Buy.
> 
> RCA DTA 800A is supported, but RCA DTA800B1 is offered at Walmart.
> 
> Zenith DTT900 is supported, but DTT901 is offered at Circuit City.
> 
> And I am still wondering about the Apex DT250 (available at Best Buy), since that seems to be the best box of them all from what I read, with S video out, analog pass thru, Smart Antenna, and features for setting aspect ratios.
> 
> Seems the Tivo engineers need to test with the latest currently available boxes so that people who have expiring coupons now know what ones to consider.
> 
> TivoJerry or other Tivo insiders, what do you think? And any more progress on testing with the Apex DT250?


I got the 901 from CC yesterday for use with my 540. On the end of the aisle they had the 900s. I was disappointed but though what's the harm in looking through the the aisles. Sure enough - there sat the 901s in the middle of an aisle right next to the antennas. IOW it could be that they might have both if you keep looking.

Just in case anybody in my area is looking for one it was the Tyrone store on 66th in St. Petersburg, FL.

If it was already supported I might have gone with the Apex DT250. But the Zenith is good and since it's going on the 540 it certainly is good enough.


----------



## restart88

dlt123 said:


> Hey, thanks for bringing this to my attention. Actually, my software number is 9.3-01-2-540. You're right, it's a dash and not a period. My eyes were deceiving me.
> 
> Sorry for the false alarm... and good catch.
> 
> Dennis


Actually mine says 9.3c-01-2-540.

I haven't gotten it to work yet with the Zenith DTT901. Looks like maybe I should have got the DTT900 after all. 

I'm giving it another shot right now. I missed the part about doing a restart first so maybe that's the problem.


----------



## restart88

TiVoJedi said:


> Just discovered that the Apex cannot tune subchannels by pressing digit-digit-digit. You have to press the dash button to tune a subchannel (TiVo isn't going to know how to do that). That's really a bummer for me because I was hoping to channel map CWKYT to WBKI, as I get perfect signal for the CWKYT subchannel than I do from WBKI; which only tunes when the sun goes down and radiation isn't blotting out the signal. I suspect I can't return the APEX to Best Buy and get the $40 coupon credit returned and go to Circuit City and get the Zenith instead, eh? Time to find another neighbor who will order me a coupon maybe (the postal service lost mine I requested on 1.1.08 and the government absolutely REFUSES to send me replacements.. they claim "not our screw-up, file a complaint with your postal branch".)


My Zenith DTT901 will do that 3 digit without the dash. I just tried it. BUT, if you also have DBS how will Tivo know you weren't instead tuning to a DBS channel?


----------



## David_NC

restart88 said:


> Actually mine says 9.3c-01-2-540.


9.3c is the update that corrects a bug in 9.3 where the unit locks up in guided setup when using an antenna - it does not have any updates for controlling the digital converter boxes.


----------



## musubi

I bought the Digital Stream converter box from Radio Shack, without checking if it'd be supported by Tivo (I know, I know, stupid me). I called RS back to see if I could exchange it for a supported model, and they said that all the RS stores in my area only carry the Digital Stream. Crap. Is there any chance that Tivo will be supporting that box in the future? 

Am I just gonna have to shell out the full $60 for a different model?


----------



## restart88

musubi said:


> I bought the Digital Stream converter box from Radio Shack, without checking if it'd be supported by Tivo (I know, I know, stupid me). I called RS back to see if I could exchange it for a supported model, and they said that all the RS stores in my area only carry the Digital Stream. Crap. Is there any chance that Tivo will be supporting that box in the future?
> 
> Am I just gonna have to shell out the full $60 for a different model?


Sometimes if you ask the clerks they'll say some folks donated their extra cards so it wouldn't hurt to ask around. I know that's what my Radio Shack reps told me at 2 different stores in 2 different states. Maybe if they have an extra card you could try explaining it to your RS rep and they'd offer you one since you already bought 2 units from them and they want your later return business. Besides, that would be better for them than returning a box to at least get your $20 plus tax back.

As for the Digital Stream, if all else fails and depending on your setup, you might be able to use it even though it's unsupported. I have one hooked up to a S2DT and apparently that will never be supported and will never be able to get sub channels. The workaround could even stop working one day in the future.

The irony here is that my unsupported setup works just fine today while my supported setup is still awaiting an update before it works automatically at all for OTA. 

Well since I can change channels manually with the converter remote I think I'll leave the 540/ Zenith combo hooked up in the living room as is and let the DT/ RS combo in the bedroom handle the Season Passes for a while.

What's sad is that if I upgrade to a HD Tivo I suppose I'd want that in the living room instead, since that's where the HDTV is. But of course that doesn't work with DBS. So I'd have to go back to the drawing board and figure something else out.


----------



## classicsat

How about this?

Livingroom:
TiVo HD on antenna.
HD DirecTV receiver (or DVR) (optionally with S2DT TiVo)

Other Room:
540 TiVo + DTV +OTA tuner


----------



## TiVoJedi

restart88 said:


> Actually mine says 9.3c-01-2-540.
> 
> I haven't gotten it to work yet with the Zenith DTT901. Looks like maybe I should have got the DTT900 after all.
> 
> I'm giving it another shot right now. I missed the part about doing a restart first so maybe that's the problem.


Restart88.. what's your progress been since this post? I have an expiring $40 coupon (expires in 2 days) and am doing the last minute research on making my TiVo use a Zenith DTT901 for OTA tuning of regular + subchannels. I call that a 'complete hack' as I want to try to remap the subchannels (and tune them) as well.

I've posted several questions and thoughts here if you want to have a look at those responses also:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14372027#post14372027

The APEX I bought isn't a complete hack because of the dash requirement of the unit to tune subchannels, so I am looking at the Zenith DTT901 to come in and save the day. I'm going to try to borrow my friend's CM-7000 and see if I can get TiVo to work with that. I read somewhere to use the Pioneer cable box code for its remote.

The thought about the TiVo simultaneously trying to tune a given 3-digit channel on both the CECB + DBS receiver I also had (on the AVS forum). I am wondering how TiVo will differentiate and what channel will record as sending 3-digit codes will definitely conflict with satellite channel numbers. For major channels the 2-digit channel will work, but the subchannels require 3 digits that are also represented by channels on the DBS receiver. Hmmm...


----------



## tkoyn

Many of these boxes offer aspect ratio control. Will Tivo Series 2 support setting the aspect ratio option under Recording Options for each show it is set to record -- in particular, I see the following possible scenarios for what would be wanted, depending on the show and TV that the Tivo Series 2 recording will be played back on:

1) HD Broadcast of a widescreen show to be played back from Tivo on an old 4:3 TV - this should be recorded with the converter box set to make a letterbox recording so the entire picture shows with black bars at top and bottom. This would be the default if the user does not choose 2 or 3 for a recording, since a mistaken use of this option in an inappropriate circumstance would be less ruinous to a recording than a mistaken use of option 2 or 3.

2) HD Broadcast of a full screen show regardless of TV type to play back on. On a new 16:9 HD TV a direct view of the broadcast would show bars on the left and right. If we convert as in case 1) for the Tivo you would get a shrunk picture with black bars on all four sides because the show is broadcast as a full screen inside of a widescreen. So to record this on Tivo, we would want the converter box to operate in a zoom mode so the show fills the 4:3 picture in the Tivo recording.

3) HD Broadcast of a widescreen show to be played back on a 16:9 TV - this should be recorded with the converter box set to stretch the picture vertically to fill the entire 4:3 area in the Tivo Recording. The newer widescreen TVs will reshape (widen) the recording to fill their screen. If you use conversion option 1 to record a widescreen show on Tivo and play back on a 16:9 TV, the program would be letterboxed inside the Tivo in a 4:3 picture, and then when displayed on the TV, the picture would be centered as a 4:3 area with bars on left and right and you would therefore get bars on all four sides with a shrunken widescreen presentation.

A Tivo Series 2 user with an old 4:3 TV is going to want to select individually between options 1 and 2 in the recording options for each show and a Tivo Series 2 user with a newer widescreen TV will want to select between options 2 and 3.

Since I suspect that not all converter boxes support all three options, the Tivo would determine which options are available when it is told which converter box it is using during setup for the infra-red codes. Tivo would then offer the supported options for the users converter box in the recording options. and send out the appropriate IR codes for the aspect ratio setting just before each recording.


----------



## tkoyn

Even better, would be if the Tivo could get the aspect ratio of each program (full screen or widescreen) with the program guide information, and provide the user a setting for whether they have a 4:3 TV or a 16:9 TV. Then Tivo could figure out automatically which of the three options to use for recording each program, and make that as default under the recording options for aspect ratio.

Tivo should still let the user override on a program-by-program basis, if he/she believes the program guide to be wrong on the aspect ratio, or if he/she plans to play the recording back on a different TV than usual (such as taking the Tivo machine to a friend's TV to watch something with the friend).


----------



## restart88

classicsat said:


> How about this?
> 
> Livingroom:
> TiVo HD on antenna.
> HD DirecTV receiver (or DVR) (optionally with S2DT TiVo)
> 
> Other Room:
> 540 TiVo + DTV +OTA tuner


Well 1st that would be 3 receivers instead of 2. But another thing is that my TV has to scroll through the inputs and this is a PITA to deal with sometimes. I actually like just being able to use the same input source most of the time and scrolling through only occasionally like for DVD or the unencrypted channels on my old Dish receiver or such.


----------



## restart88

TiVoJedi said:


> Restart88.. what's your progress been since this post? I have an expiring $40 coupon (expires in 2 days) and am doing the last minute research on making my TiVo use a Zenith DTT901 for OTA tuning of regular + subchannels. I call that a 'complete hack' as I want to try to remap the subchannels (and tune them) as well.


Sounds like that could work for OTA only but that remapping stuff is way beyond me.

At this point I'll just wait on the software update and hope it works out as promised and just go from there. I may eventually just decide to put the 540 in the bedroom and upgrade to an HD for the living room and figure something out from there.

For now I'm fine with the unsupported DT workaround recording the OTA programs and then just using the Zenith remote to change channels on the 540 in the living room from ch 3.

What's funny is that the DT is a better box and I got it to eventually replace the 540 yet it will be headed for eBay if I upgrade to HD while keeping the older box, burps & all.


----------



## kb7oeb

Both Dish and DirecTV have begun using the HD feed from TV stations and 4:3 cropping them for their SD customers. Because of that the networks have modified their HD feeds to be 4:3 friendly. The solution is for the networks/stations to implement AFD (active format descriptor) to tell the receiver if it should crop for 4:3 or show 16:9 with black bars. Some of the networks use AFD internally but none that I'm aware of send it out to viewers.


----------



## DougF

I know this thread is about S2, but I'll chime in with my own little experience with S1.

I have DTiVos but am using an unsubbed SVR-2000 for our OTA channels. I got the DTX9950 from Radio Shack. I reran Guided Setup and picked OTA and Satellite. Only two of our OTA channels have gone digital so far, so I still need to record from some analog ones. I'm using Hitachi for the brand of DBS box. 

Everything is working great. The DTX 9950 doesn't require the dash to change. I'm only using channels 6.1 and 13.1 so far and choosing 6 or 13 from the DirecTV channels changes makes the convertor box change to those channels perfectly.


----------



## cia_viewer

1) I installed TiVo Desktop on my PC.
2) I successfully copied a program from my TiVo.
3) The file (....TiVo) is now on my PC harddrive.

*What can I do with it?*

I was hoping I could copy it to a DVD for playback on another DVD>TV (private viewing)

I do have 'Roxio Creator & MyDVD 9.0 DE' (which I have not used much) on my PC. I am not sure I have installed all of its features. My main interest, previously has been to create data DVDs for backup...


----------



## steve614

cia_viewer said:


> 1) I installed TiVo Desktop on my PC.
> 2) I successfully copied a program from my TiVo.
> 3) The file (....TiVo) is now on my PC harddrive.
> 
> *What can I do with it?*
> 
> I was hoping I could copy it to a DVD for playback on another DVD>TV (private viewing)
> 
> I do have 'Roxio Creator & MyDVD 9.0 DE' (which I have not used much) on my PC. I am not sure I have installed all of its features. My main interest, previously has been to create data DVDs for backup...


That is not the topic of this thread.
You need to ask that in the Tivo to Go forum.


----------



## TiVoJedi

Unfortunately I repeated guided setup last night having chosen cable box + satellite and now the TiVoWeb channel map doesn't show any of the low channel numbers for the CECB (testing a CM-7000) and therefor no way for me to reassign the channel guide info for the CECB channels to the right channel numbers for TiVo to tune. Since my Philips S1 TiVo only has one input for satellite and RF for the cable box (CECB in my case), it doesn't make sense to use the CM-7000 for this application since I can't use s-video anyway (sat receiver using it). My brother gave me a coupon that expires tomorrow and I used it today for a Zenith DTT901. I'm not sure if I have to sit through guided setup again for the channelmap to populate the locals off the CECB again or what, but when I find time I will probably do it again with the Zenith instead. Took over 2 hours for guided setup! Eek!


----------



## TiVoJedi

restart88 said:


> Actually mine says 9.3c-01-2-540.
> 
> I haven't gotten it to work yet with the Zenith DTT901. Looks like maybe I should have got the DTT900 after all.
> 
> I'm giving it another shot right now. I missed the part about doing a restart first so maybe that's the problem.


I picked up the Zenith DTT901 yesterday (brother sent me a coupon that was going to expire in the next day). I can't find a remote code on the TiVo to cause the channel changes. Did you find one? This sucks! Maybe I can trade the DTT901 for the 900 (another friend has these).


----------



## classicsat

Try LG codes.


----------



## TiVoJedi

classicsat said:


> Try LG codes.


Will do! Thanks!

Other problem is that the channelmap feature in TiVoWebPlus doesn't show me any channels for those on the cable lineup (which is what I am using the CECB with). I cannot fathom why. I hope I don't need to repeat guided setup again


----------



## TiVoJedi

LG is not a cable box option on my S1 Phillips TiVo.


----------



## pcbrew

The Zenith is the same as the Insignia box mentioned here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6410573#post6410573

Can you go to Advanced IR setup and use:

IR Code: 10075-B
Cable Channel Digits: 2 
Cable "Enter" button: No
I was able to use the LG selection on my S2 but there will be a problem if a station has multiple sub-channels...

Tuning to a channel using just the main channel number works fine the first time (you get the first sub-channel '-1'). But, tuning to the same channel again will cause the next sub-channel to get selected and tuned. So, if you have a recording scheduled for the same channel as the last OTA recording and the converter box channel has not changed, you will get the next sub-channel in the list (-2). 
I tried deleting channels on the box after the scan, but the just prevents them from showing up when you use the channel up/down button. I also tried locking them out with parental controls but this doesn't affect the tuning, it just replaces the display with a 'channel blocked' message.

I guess we'll have to wait for the update to use the Insignia and Zenith boxes.


----------



## DougF

TiVoJedi said:


> LG is not a cable box option on my S1 Phillips TiVo.


This page might help you.

http://www.courtesan.com/tivo/dtv.html


----------



## TiVoJedi

DougF said:


> This page might help you.
> 
> http://www.courtesan.com/tivo/dtv.html


Yep already found that and ran his dtt900_add script for changing the cable-box Zenith 10013 code to 10075. Doesn't seem to work for DTT901. Still not getting any activity from the IR blaster. Of course I have not rebooted or rerun guided setup.

I am trying the reboot right now and if that doesn't work I guess I need to find another 2-hour block of time to repeat guided setup and work his instructions verbatim.

It's really annoying TiVo decided to leave S1 satellite users out to dry by offering an HDTiVo that is incapable of using an external satellite box. I'm probably like 1 of 5 people in the US that use OTA + Satellite tuner with my series 1, I bet, so I am a statistic that doesn't matter.  
I have been faithful since day 1 too. It really is a shame I have to go through all this trouble to work a solution.


----------



## TiVoJedi

Ahh.. In the cable code selection for Zenith, after running the script 10075 code appeared (after reboot) and I now have my TiVo zapping channel changes to the DTT901, so the code is fine. 

Now if I can figure out why TiVoWebPlus channel guide is lacking my lower channel numbers I will be even closer to solving this.


----------



## TiVoJedi

I wrote to Todd who authored the webpage and process previously mentioned a couple posts ago. He created a modified script for multi-source people (like me). I just used it and the script ran successfully.. I just cannot test everything until I get home. I'm getting a good feeling though.


----------



## SleepyBob

DougF said:


> I know this thread is about S2, but I'll chime in with my own little experience with S1.
> 
> I have DTiVos but am using an unsubbed SVR-2000 for our OTA channels. I got the DTX9950 from Radio Shack. I reran Guided Setup and picked OTA and Satellite. Only two of our OTA channels have gone digital so far, so I still need to record from some analog ones. I'm using Hitachi for the brand of DBS box.
> 
> Everything is working great. The DTX 9950 doesn't require the dash to change. I'm only using channels 6.1 and 13.1 so far and choosing 6 or 13 from the DirecTV channels changes makes the convertor box change to those channels perfectly.


Do you know if it can tune to subchannels without a dash? I need a box to tune 3.1 and 3.2.


----------



## TiVoJedi

SleepyBob said:


> Do you know if it can tune to subchannels without a dash? I need a box to tune 3.1 and 3.2.


As I learned last night the Zenith DTT901 can tune subchannels directly by using 3-digits (no dash necessary). My CBS is 27.1 and it's subchannel for CW is 27.2. I can tune direct by typing 271 and 272, respectively.

Just note you need to either use the Zenith as a satellite box or run the script mentioned in my previous posts so that the Zenith also shows up as a cable box (if configuring dual sources: satellite + CECB).


----------



## dlt123

Well, Summer is coming closer to the end. Does anyone know when the updated software is going to be released to our TIVOs?

I just bought another DTV unit, the Channel Master CM-7000 and would like to hook it up to my TIVO. I don't want to hack my way in so am patiently waiting for the software update.

Is it ready for release yet?

Dennis


----------



## David_NC

dlt123 said:


> Well, Summer is coming closer to the end.


They still have a couple of months - Fall begins September 22.


----------



## TiVoJedi

Just wanted to announce that my Philips S1 TiVo is now very successfully utilizing a Zenith DTT901 CECB + Dish Network satellite receiver.

Follow Todd's directions at his site here:
http://www.courtesan.com/tivo/dtv.html

If you have a multi-source situation as I did, he modified the channel_map script, but hasn't posted it on his site yet. I don't imagine many people are using a satellite tuner (S-video\AV) AND CECB (coax RF) connected to the same TiVo, but it will work. TiVo is not confused at all that I have two channel 271 and 272 channels. Those two particular channels correspond to my CBS and CW channels OTA and also two Hispanic channels on Dish Network. I unchecked them on satellite for 'channels I receive' anyhow because I never watch them anyway. I decided to use the full 3-digit tuning method that the Zenith allows because it has given access to my subchannels to be tuned by the TiVo. The last thing I need to do is make the channel mods permanent or at least recurring to keep TiVo aware I have remapped those channels, as every time channels are added/removed by TiVo these custom changes will be erased.

So why couldn't TiVo Inc. just pick the Zenith DTT900 and DTT901 and do exactly what Todd did to make mine work? They would just need an extra screen for the user to reassign cableTV lineup channel numbers\guide info to actual numbers used by the Zenith to tune those local channels. Then the programming keeps these modifications stored\recurring for preservation on channel updates? I don't think there are too many of us S1 owners out there and this stuff doesn't seem all that difficult. Maybe I am biased because I have it working and understand it better now.


----------



## Amiga

*TiVoJerry*

:up: I'm hoping you are hearing some of us requesting EchoStar / DISH Network DTVPal support for our Series 2 machines. I realize supporting everything won't be easy. Thanks for listening.

I dumped cable and I'm hoping to use my HUMAX again.


----------



## bicker

dlt123 said:


> Well, Summer is coming closer to the end. Does anyone know when the updated software is going to be released to our TIVOs?


My understanding is that TiVo software is released in Fall and Spring, so if there going to be an update (and I don't know whether or not there will) expect it within the next three or four months or expect it next Spring.


----------



## snedecor

dlt123 said:


> Well, Summer is coming closer to the end. Does anyone know when the updated software is going to be released to our TIVOs?
> 
> I just bought another DTV unit, the Channel Master CM-7000 and would like to hook it up to my TIVO. I don't want to hack my way in so am patiently waiting for the software update.
> 
> Is it ready for release yet?
> 
> Dennis


I know that people in *THE BETA* test program cannot say anything about the test. *IS* it *GOING WELL* or poorly? *VERY FEW* people know who are even in the beta test program. TiVo rarely *ISSUES* updates on such things.


----------



## cia_viewer

My HD TiVo (Series 3) had a '*Summer* Update' last night.

> 9.4-01-2-652


----------



## dlt123

cia_viewer said:


> My HD TiVo (Series 3) had a '*Summer* Update' last night.
> 
> > 9.4-01-2-652


I just checked my Series 2, 540 box and it hasn't updated yet. So it looks like we'll have to wait.



bicker said:


> My understanding is that TiVo software is released in Fall and Spring, so if there going to be an update (and I don't know whether or not there will) expect it within the next three or four months or expect it next Spring.


I didn't know that, I thought they were going to do a separate update for the DTV units. It will be nice when this update happens.

Dennis


----------



## Kenn159

I'm, also hoping for Series 2 support for the DTV pal.
I just got the DTV pal and am very happy with it and the clarity of the new digital stations on my 27 inch JVC stereo analog tv.


----------



## locomodem

Found this Google-ing.
Sorry if it's been posted already. I looked but didn't see it.

http://www.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/prm/digital-transition/Antenna_Converter_Instructions.pdf

PDF link

Hope it helps.

Update:
I called Tivo just now and they said that they do not have an update yet. I told him about this PDF and he didn't believe me. I saved it here in case it comes down. Looks like an easy fix once it's released.

http://locomodem.com/tivo/Antenna_Converter_Instructions.pdf


----------



## locomodem

I feel smart although my setup is definitely rigged.
I split my rabbit ears signal.
I have one input to my receiver from my Tivo Series2.
I have another input for my DTT901 converter box. 

So I can swap to watch good quality live, but I can still record stuff although that is in lower quality. Just waiting for Tivo to do the update which from my previous post looks to be a sure thing eventually.

Rockin.


----------



## David_NC

locomodem said:


> Found this Google-ing.
> Sorry if it's been posted already. I looked but didn't see it.
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/prm/digital-transition/Antenna_Converter_Instructions.pdf
> 
> PDF link
> 
> Hope it helps.
> 
> Update:
> I called Tivo just now and they said that they do not have an update yet. I told him about this PDF and he didn't believe me. I saved it here in case it comes down. Looks like an easy fix once it's released.
> 
> http://locomodem.com/tivo/Antenna_Converter_Instructions.pdf


I recall seeing that posted before. They have been testing the new software, so its probably on the website for the beta testers.


----------



## pdonoghu

David_NC said:


> I recall seeing that posted before. They have been testing the new software, so its probably on the website for the beta testers.


Beta testers have their own private forum. I'll bet Tivo is getting close to releasing the update, or someone got ahead of themselves in preparing for the update. From the document, looks like the next release will be 9.3.1, not 9.4 like the Series 3 received.


----------



## David_NC

I finally found where I thought I saw this - post #443 of this thread. That was actually the version for antenna+satellite, so a slightly different manual.

http://www3.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/prm/digital-transition/Satellite_Converter_Instructions.pdf


----------



## restart88

pdonoghu said:


> Beta testers have their own private forum. I'll bet Tivo is getting close to releasing the update, or someone got ahead of themselves in preparing for the update. From the document, looks like the next release will be 9.3.1, not 9.4 like the Series 3 received.


Either way I hope they distribute the general release soon so I can get the setup squared away before the the new series programs start coming out. Time's running out - Eureka starts tonight with it's new season! :up:


----------



## TiVoJerry

restart88 said:


> Either way I hope they distribute the general release soon so I can get the setup squared away before the the new series programs start coming out. Time's running out - Eureka starts tonight with it's new season! :up:


FYI - we have just started the measured release to a random population of S2 units to see what the effect of the release itself is on the call center. The actual support issues around OTA support will be a different matter altogether.

So, if your S2 DVR has made a connection in the last day or two and you do not have the new SW, or the connection lists as "successful" rather than "pending restart", you aren't in the initial batch (i.e. don't keep forcing connections, it won't get you the SW any sooner).

Barring any unforseen delays, you'll have the opportunity to request the SW via the priority list once we're ready to push out the entire population.


----------



## jrm01

Would it be correct to assume that this new version will be identified as 9.3.1.x? (x = some letter to identify pre-release).


----------



## Puppy76

TiVoJerry said:


> FYI - we have just started the measured release to a random population of S2 units to see what the effect of the release itself is on the call center. The actual support issues around OTA support will be a different matter altogether.
> 
> So, if your S2 DVR has made a connection in the last day or two and you do not have the new SW, or the connection lists as "successful" rather than "pending restart", you aren't in the initial batch (i.e. don't keep forcing connections, it won't get you the SW any sooner).
> 
> Barring any unforseen delays, you'll have the opportunity to request the SW via the priority list once we're ready to push out the entire population.


Excellent! I'm so happy with how Tivo's handling this (and bringing back lifetime rocks too  ).

I no longer need cable since I switched from cable to DSL (Comcast took over from Insight in my area, and then raised rates more than $17/month).

I guess I'm planning on waiting for this update, testing it out to make sure it works okay, and then dropping basic cable. So this is going to save me $15/month


----------



## TiVoJerry

jrm01 said:


> Would it be correct to assume that this new version will be identified as 9.3.1.x? (x = some letter to identify pre-release).


Yes.


----------



## magnus

I just wish that they would do something about the S1 boxes as well. I have one that is no longer going to work for all the OTA channels... come 2009. 



Puppy76 said:


> Excellent! I'm so happy with how Tivo's handling this (and bringing back lifetime rocks too  ).
> 
> I no longer need cable since I switched from cable to DSL (Comcast took over from Insight in my area, and then raised rates more than $17/month).
> 
> I guess I'm planning on waiting for this update, testing it out to make sure it works okay, and then dropping basic cable. So this is going to save me $15/month


----------



## restart88

TiVoJerry said:


> FYI - we have just started the measured release to a random population of S2 units to see what the effect of the release itself is on the call center. The actual support issues around OTA support will be a different matter altogether.
> 
> So, if your S2 DVR has made a connection in the last day or two and you do not have the new SW, or the connection lists as "successful" rather than "pending restart", you aren't in the initial batch (i.e. don't keep forcing connections, it won't get you the SW any sooner).
> 
> Barring any unforseen delays, you'll have the opportunity to request the SW via the priority list once we're ready to push out the entire population.


Actually I had to force a couple of connections yesterday as for some reason I kept getting the guide data running out notices even though it had made an automated service connection earlier in the day. It's always connected to my network and I had no outages this week.

After I forced the 1st connection I checked the software version and I noticed it was the same and I was scheduled for another service connection in like 2 hours so I forced a 2nd connection. Still the same old version.  I was kinda hoping that was what was up. But at least your response sounds promising. Thanks!


----------



## TiVoJerry

magnus said:


> I just wish that they would do something about the S1 boxes as well. I have one that is no longer going to work for all the OTA channels... come 2009.


That software is way too old for us to dig into and try to upgrade at this point. Even if we did, most of these boxes have drives that have been out there so long that many of them probably wouldn't handle a SW update very gracefully. We strive to keep the S1 platforms as functional as possible, even going so far as to create a workaround for the new Daylist Saving Time schedule, but it is not practical for us to come up with a software update to provide ATSC support.

We spent quite a bit of time researching options and came to the conclusion that that offering upgrade packages (see tivo.com/digital2009) is the best way to handle this situation for customers still using the S1 platform to receive antenna channels.


----------



## magnus

I've called Tivo support on several occasions and they keep telling me that I am not affected because I do not use my Tivo enough to be affected.

Heck, I could not even get them to tell me what the offer is.

Edit: Well, actually the reason changes each time that I call. Also, the website keeps changing. One time it says 'you're not affected' and the next time it says 'you've already used this offer with your Tivo'. On either option.... it's simply not true.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=399987&page=2&p=6541544



TiVoJerry said:


> That software is way too old for us to dig into and try to upgrade at this point. Even if we did, most of these boxes have drives that have been out there so long that many of them probably wouldn't handle a SW update very gracefully. We strive to keep the S1 platforms as functional as possible, even going so far as to create a workaround for the new Daylist Saving Time schedule, but it is not practical for us to come up with a software update to provide ATSC support.
> 
> We spent quite a bit of time researching options and came to the conclusion that that offering upgrade packages (see tivo.com/digital2009) is the best way to handle this situation for customers still using the S1 platform to receive antenna channels.


----------



## bicker

My best guess is that if you haven't been an active subscriber, with your program guide set to receive OTA, then they won't offer you the offer. They won't offer it to me, apparently.


----------



## restart88

Just curious, and I'm sure it's probably been asked a dozen or more times before, I can see the point of the S1 being too old but I have a S2DT that with the mere addition of a $10 modulator gets the main broadcast channels by tricking Tivo into thinking the converter is a DBS box. (The local cable numbers don't match up) Why all the effort to make the older S2 boxes work after the conversion and essentially write off the newer DT units, digital cable box rental notwithstanding?

Is it because only those units with a tuner can do OTA and DBS so they'll continue to be sold for a bit longer? Since a S3 cannot do OTA and DBS and _maybe_ never will doesn't it make sense to incorporate newer technology into an improved SD box?

I ask because I tend to have minor issues with my 540 that I don't with my DT. I'm never certain if it's just because the HD is old and smaller or if the DT was just built better. As long as D* has it's SD programming on 101 I will probably need a DBS capability for Tivo. I've had horrible results with multiple antennas with E* so I'm skeptical that I'll ever go to HD service and cable HD tier is just too expensive for me at the moment besides the bigger problem of not offering some of the channels I watch on DBS.

Now I am in a semi unique position because I use the DT in my bedroom as OTA only and MRV the sat recordings when desired. And that "probably" wouldn't change if I upgraded the DT to a S3 even though my HDTV is in the living room due to the DBS. Yet ironically the offers for upgrading seem to be for those with the boxes with OTA tuners, which I suppose is understandable since a DT never had an OTA tuner. Still. Technically it slightly leaves someone like me in the cracks. I'd love to upgrade from the 540 but the old 540 is the only thing that makes my setup work for me. DBS will never carry every local channel, DBS isn't available on the newest boxes, and the idea of scrolling through inputs to access a dedicated 2nd box in the living room is just not appealing.


----------



## classicsat

It is simply because the Series 2 DT units are not OTA capable anyways, that they will not get digital OTA box support. If they were to add support for it in a way that it could support a digital OTA tuner plus a satellite box, they'd have to work out a way to support one or the other on the RF in, which Series 2 DTs don't do now.


----------



## DougF

magnus said:


> I just wish that they would do something about the S1 boxes as well. I have one that is no longer going to work for all the OTA channels... come 2009.


You can make it work. Mine is already using one.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6520855#post6520855

My only problem is that I can't make the TiVo tune the sub-channels, but I'm going to try and get one of the boxes that tunes those without needing the dash.

Also, you can see that I'm using an unsubbed unit, so I don't care about guide data. But if you can find a cable lineup that matches your OTA lineup and use that zip code, you should still be able to get guide data (at least for network programs). At the very least, you can do manual recordings.


----------



## gastrof

bicker said:


> My best guess is that if you haven't been an active subscriber, with your program guide set to receive OTA, then they won't offer you the offer...


Wouldn't OTA people be the ones the offer would be of most interest to?


----------



## dslunceford

I'm sorry that I haven't been keeping up with this, and if this is an obvious question, but post transition the S2s effectively become single tuner devices, (as they can only control channel changing for a single external box), correct?


----------



## bicker

gastrof said:


> My best guess is that if you haven't been an active subscriber, with your program guide set to receive OTA, then they won't offer you the offer.
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't OTA people be the ones the offer would be of most interest to?
Click to expand...

Yes, so that's why they're probably only offering to active subscribers with =program guide set to receive OTA.

(I think you missed one word in my earlier message that reversed its meaning in your mind...)


----------



## bicker

dslunceford said:


> I'm sorry that I haven't been keeping up with this, and if this is an obvious question, but post transition the S2s effectively become single tuner devices, (as they can only control channel changing for a single external box), correct?


Correct.


----------



## TiVoJerry

dslunceford said:


> I'm sorry that I haven't been keeping up with this, and if this is an obvious question, but post transition the S2s effectively become single tuner devices, (as they can only control channel changing for a single external box), correct?


The transition only affects antenna customers. The S2DT model has never supported antenna customers to begin with, so the only models that will receive an update to provide support for digital OTA will be the single tuner models (except the rare 542-prefixed model, which also never supported antenna to begin with).

If you are a satellite + antenna user, you *will *be able to control two boxes simultaneously. That's why the S2's IR cable comes with two emitters.

There will not be a choice to set up for Cable + Antenna, but that's also never been in place before now since cable companies rebroadcast the local antenna stations.


----------



## pdhenry

dslunceford said:


> I'm sorry that I haven't been keeping up with this, and if this is an obvious question, but post transition the S2s effectively become single tuner devices, (as they can only control channel changing for a single external box), correct?


They can still control two channels of cable.


----------



## gastrof

pdhenry said:


> They can still control two channels of cable.


Only if the second channel is analog, and if the cable system still HAS analog.

If the cable system switches to all digital, the TiVo's own analog tuner won't have anything to record.


----------



## larkor

Will there be a dtv conveter + antenna choice? I'll still have a low power analog station after the conversion.


----------



## gastrof

dslunceford said:


> I'm sorry that I haven't been keeping up with this, and if this is an obvious question, but post transition the S2s effectively become single tuner devices, (as they can only control channel changing for a single external box), correct?


No.

Since the changeover only affects people who use antennas, and since the Series 2 dual tuner machine works with satellite and cable, the OTA changeover to digital won't affect it at all.

As a side point, the Series 2's do not all have the ability to record two shows at once.

Traditionally, they were all single tuner machines until the DT model came out.

.


----------



## pdhenry

gastrof said:


> Only if the second channel is analog, and if the cable system still HAS analog.


Unrelated to the OTA switchover.


----------



## CuriousMark

larkor said:


> Will there be a dtv conveter + antenna choice? I'll still have a low power analog station after the conversion.


Some DTV converter boxes, such as the Apex DT250, offer analog pass-through. That might be helpful in this particular situation, but I haven't tried it and don't know if it will work myself.


----------



## DougF

CuriousMark said:


> Some DTV converter boxes, such as the Apex DT250, offer analog pass-through. That might be helpful in this particular situation, but I haven't tried it and don't know if it will work myself.


I don't think that would work. The analog pass-through only comes through the RF output and only works when the DTV box is off. The DTV box will not tune those channels. The TiVo would still need to tune those channels for recording. The DTV box needs to be on at all times for the TiVo to record from it.


----------



## larkor

larkor said:


> Will there be a dtv conveter + antenna choice? I'll still have a low power analog station after the conversion.


I was thinking about the choice during setup. I'll use a splitter for the converter and the rf input.


----------



## jrm01

gastrof said:


> No.
> 
> Since the changeover only affects people who use antennas, and since the Series 2 dual tuner machine works with satellite and cable, the OTA changeover to digital won't affect it at all.
> 
> .


Actually it will affect those who have the original S2-DT (540 series) and use it for antenna only. They will only be able to use one tuner.


----------



## Adam1115

jrm01 said:


> Actually it will affect those who have the original S2-DT (540 series) and use it for antenna only. They will only be able to use one tuner.


No, it won't.

None of the DT models support OTA.

The 540's are single tuner.


----------



## jrm01

Adam1115 said:


> No, it won't.
> 
> None of the DT models support OTA.
> 
> The 540's are single tuner.


oops! My bad.


----------



## restart88

larkor said:


> Will there be a dtv conveter + antenna choice? I'll still have a low power analog station after the conversion.


Actually in your situation the S3 series should address your concerns perfectly, no?

Mine is that the S3 series doesn't do DBS and I need DBS + OTA in one box and might always will have that need. So I'm stuck using the older technology at least for the foreseeable future.


----------



## larkor

restart88 said:


> Actually in your situation the S3 series should address your concerns perfectly, no?
> 
> Mine is that the S3 series doesn't do DBS and I need DBS + OTA in one box and might always will have that need. So I'm stuck using the older technology at least for the foreseeable future.


You're right, a S3 would be good choice. However at the moment my old S2 is in my daughter's room hooked up to an old SD Sony and most of her programs are transferred from other S2s connected to DISHs.


----------



## zarchon69

Near the end of August, tivo will relase a software upgrade for series 2 that will enable you to change channels on converter box via ir blasters. You will have to re-run guided setup and redo all your season passes as well as if the conveter box has a sleep mode, you will have to disable that function


----------



## tkoyn

zarchon69 said:


> You will have to re-run guided setup and redo all your season passes as well


Why will it be necessary to redo the season passes? These are not erased now if I repeat guided setup.


----------



## jlac839

I suspect that you will have to redo your season passes because the channel numbers may change when you tune via the CECB box. Season passes are tied to specific channels (I think). I guess that in those cases where the channel number is the same on both analog and digital transmissions it may not be necessary to redo those passes. If you've got everything programmed via wishlists then that's a different scenario and you probably won't have to alter them.


----------



## TiVoJerry

larkor said:


> Will there be a dtv conveter + antenna choice? I'll still have a low power analog station after the conversion.


Unfortunately, no. So very few people would fall into this situation after the changeover that we won't be offering the option to perform both.



CuriousMark said:


> Some DTV converter boxes, such as the Apex DT250, offer analog pass-through. That might be helpful in this particular situation, but I haven't tried it and don't know if it will work myself.


Since the majority of converters will not tune to analog channels or perform passthrough, it was not practical to build in the support for NTSC and ATSC channels simultaneously (in the same "lineup") when using a converter. The DVR will only pull up an ATSC lineup when set up to use antenna w/box.



tkoyn said:


> Why will it be necessary to redo the season passes? These are not erased now if I repeat guided setup.


The station identifiers will be different for ATSC channels. A Season Pass for a program on KQED would not carry over to KQEDHD or KQEDDT.


----------



## restart88

larkor said:


> You're right, a S3 would be good choice. However at the moment my old S2 is in my daughter's room hooked up to an old SD Sony and most of her programs are transferred from other S2s connected to DISHs.


Are you thinking that you couldn't use a S3 with a SD set or that you couldn't use MRV?

It seems to me that if anything the availability of the external HD on a S3 would be a blessing.


----------



## gastrof

jrm01 said:


> Actually it will affect those who have the original S2-DT (540 series) and use it for antenna only. They will only be able to use one tuner.


As I said, the Dual Tuner TiVos do NOT work with OTA.

As I also said (*ahem*)

_"As a side point, the Series 2's do not all have the ability to record two shows at once.

"Traditionally, they were all single tuner machines until the DT model came out."_

I guess you didn't read that part?


----------



## gastrof

dslunceford said:


> I'm sorry that I haven't been keeping up with this, and if this is an obvious question, but post transition the S2s effectively become single tuner devices, (as they can only control channel changing for a single external box), correct?





bicker said:


> Correct.


Incorrect.

The Dual Tuner machines don't work with OTA.

The OTA changeover to digital will have no effect on DT machines at all.

They only work with cable and satellite.

The only thing that'll affect DT machines is if a cable system goes all digital. Then the TiVo won't be able to use its onboard analog cable tuner. It'll have to use only an external cable box to get channels.


----------



## gastrof

pdhenry said:


> Unrelated to the OTA switchover.


The question was about a dual tuner machine, which doesn't work with OTA.


----------



## jrm01

gastrof said:


> As I said, the Dual Tuner TiVos do NOT work with OTA.
> 
> As I also said (*ahem*)
> 
> _"As a side point, the Series 2's do not all have the ability to record two shows at once.
> 
> "Traditionally, they were all single tuner machines until the DT model came out."_
> 
> I guess you didn't read that part?


And as I said in my next post:

oops! My bad.


----------



## restart88

The Dual Tuner machines don't work with OTA.

The OTA changeover to digital will have no effect on DT machines at all.

They only work with cable and satellite.

Mine does. At least for now using the D/A converter box.


----------



## TiVoJedi

TiVoJerry said:


> We spent quite a bit of time researching options and came to the conclusion that that offering upgrade packages (see tivo.com/digital2009) is the best way to handle this situation for customers still using the S1 platform to receive antenna channels.


Unfortunately that path doesn't address uses like me that have a S1 and use satellite + OTA. Upgrading to an HDTiVo means we cannot use our satellite service anymore with TiVo (and we're forced to use a satellite company's DVR, which is not as nice).


----------



## TiVoJedi

DougF said:


> You can make it work. Mine is already using one.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6520855#post6520855
> 
> My only problem is that I can't make the TiVo tune the sub-channels, but I'm going to try and get one of the boxes that tunes those without needing the dash.


Todd's website you mentioned is the perfect setup. The new Zenith (DTT901) works too. It has been flawless for me now that I am up and running. The hacking really made it a good solution. I send 3-digit channel tuning for all my locals (primary and subs) off the CECB, whether I need to or not. Works great! I am not sure if Todd posted his altered script he wrote for me that allows for CECB + Satellite tuner on the same TiVo, but in your case the script he has up there is what you'd use.


----------



## atmuscarella

> Unfortunately that path doesn't address uses like me that have a S1 and use satellite + OTA.


I had the same thing with two Series 2 TiVos one with OTA + sat STB and the other OTA only, plus a Dish DVR. I ended up taking a TiVo HD offer from TiVo and dumped the Sat DVR and stopped using the Series 2 TiVos for OTA, now I have TiVo HD OTA, Series 2 + Sat STB, and another Series 2 with nothing connected to it. Getting the TiVo HD kind of help push me into getting a great HD TV. I had thought about connecting one of those digital tuner boxes to the Series 2 (I have one I purchased a walmart). But honestley now that I have the TiVo HD with dual tuners and a HD TV I don't see much use for it.

Thanks,


----------



## Todd Miller

Yup, the scripts on my site have been updated to handle DBS + CECB configurations. Now that the new IR remote slice is out (which has codes for lots of CECBs), it should be possible to support more than just the Zenith CECBs with some minor changes.


----------



## tvcn

Todd Miller said:


> Now that the new IR remote slice is out (which has codes for lots of CECBs), it should be possible to support more than just the Zenith CECBs with some minor changes.


I am guessing that the additional support is possible because the IR CECB codes for Series 2 Tivos will also work in Series 1 Tivos. Or did I guess wrong ?


----------



## locomodem

gastrof said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> The Dual Tuner machines don't work with OTA.
> 
> The OTA changeover to digital will have no effect on DT machines at all.
> 
> They only work with cable and satellite.
> 
> The only thing that'll affect DT machines is if a cable system goes all digital. Then the TiVo won't be able to use its onboard analog cable tuner. It'll have to use only an external cable box to get channels.


We've been using a Series 2 DT with regular OTA antenna for years. I guess we tricked it and told it we had cable, but it worked like a charm.


----------



## Adam1115

TiVoJedi said:


> Unfortunately that path doesn't address uses like me that have a S1 and use satellite + OTA. Upgrading to an HDTiVo means we cannot use our satellite service anymore with TiVo (and we're forced to use a satellite company's DVR, which is not as nice).


Just buy a used 540 series 2 and you'll be all set. 



locomodem said:


> We've been using a Series 2 DT with regular OTA antenna for years. I guess we tricked it and told it we had cable, but it worked like a charm.


They keyword is SUPPORTS, not works.



Adam1115 said:


> No, it won't.
> 
> None of the DT models *support* OTA.
> 
> The 540's are single tuner.


----------



## Todd Miller

The CECB remote codes are already present (as component 6) in the latest IR remote slice on the Series1 TiVos. They just aren't used for anything on the Series1.


----------



## David_NC

Todd Miller said:


> The CECB remote codes are already present (as component 6) in the latest IR remote slice on the Series1 TiVos. They just aren't used for anything on the Series1.


When someone actually gets the new software, will they please post which IR code goes with which CECB?


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

Looks like the Channel Master 7000 has ample praise, is on the TiVo supported list, and seems to be one of the few with s-video output. I'll be needing a CECB for my mother, who currently uses a single-tuner Series 2 for OTA only. I don't care about analog pass-through, but s-video seems like a good idea, and the Series 2 can accept that input.

What bricks & mortar location is selling these? Having a hard time answering that question online. Amazon shows it as unavailable. No luck searching Radio Shack, Wal-Mart, Best Buy, or Target.


----------



## gastrof

restart88 said:


> The Dual Tuner machines don't work with OTA.
> 
> The OTA changeover to digital will have no effect on DT machines at all.
> 
> They only work with cable and satellite.
> 
> Mine does. At least for now using the D/A converter box.


We weren't talking about that.

We were talking about the digital changeover affecting Dual Tuner machines, as you actually quoted.

The digital changeover won't have any effect on them, since they were made for satellite and cable, and those aren't facing what OTA is on Feb 17th '09.

Yours actually doesn't work with OTA, by the way...

It works with an external tuner box, which is pretty common for a DT machine. It's the tuner box that works with OTA. 

The DT's own internal tuner doesn't.

I'm curious as to what lineup you're using and how.

Telling the TiVo that you have DISH, possibly, and that your DISH box includes an OTA digital tuner? Using an OTA box whose codes the TiVo does know? (Kind of a gimmie on that one.) Unchecking all the channels on the DISH lineup you created during Setup, leaving only the OTA's?


----------



## TheGreenHornet

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> Looks like the Channel Master 7000 has ample praise, is on the TiVo supported list, and seems to be one of the few with s-video output. I'll be needing a CECB for my mother, who currently uses a single-tuner Series 2 for OTA only. I don't care about analog pass-through, but s-video seems like a good idea, and the Series 2 can accept that input.
> 
> What bricks & mortar location is selling these? Having a hard time answering that question online. Amazon shows it as unavailable. No luck searching Radio Shack, Wal-Mart, Best Buy, or Target.


Todd in Iowa:

I was just looking for a channel master 7000 on line last night. I think the S Video is a great feature for my older Sony in my home office.

I did find it at Fry'e Electornics on line. They have retail stores on the west coast. They are selling the CM 7000 for $60. I can not tell if they accept the coupons that would make the price $20 plus their reasonable price for shipping. It might be worth a phone call to customer service on Monday to see if they accept the coupons on the phone.

http://shop3.outpost.com/product/5488779?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

I also found the box at Signalsource.com (they list it on e-bay too) and freedtvshop.com. I can not find any other mainstream brick and mortar store for the CM 7000.

The only other s-video box thus far is Best Buy's Apex that is in their store locally. It is on line at:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...l+converter+box&type=product&id=1213046767902


----------



## TiVoJedi

TheGreenHornet said:


> The only other s-video box thus far is Best Buy's Apex that is in their store locally. It is on line at:
> 
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...l+converter+box&type=product&id=1213046767902


One 'problem with the APEX is that the displayed picture is always zoomed-in a little meaning all sides of the picture are missing (displayed outside the viewable portion of your TV screen). It's call overscan and there's no way to adjust it with the box.


----------



## bradm42

TiVoJerry said:


> FYI - we have just started the measured release to a random population of S2 units to see what the effect of the release itself is on the call center. The actual support issues around OTA support will be a different matter altogether.
> 
> So, if your S2 DVR has made a connection in the last day or two and you do not have the new SW, or the connection lists as "successful" rather than "pending restart", you aren't in the initial batch (i.e. don't keep forcing connections, it won't get you the SW any sooner).
> 
> Barring any unforseen delays, you'll have the opportunity to request the SW via the priority list once we're ready to push out the entire population.


I just noticed that www.tivo.com/priority seems to be up now for the 9.3c which has the CECB support.



> There is a new service update available for Series2 customers using antenna as a signal source. Software version 9.3c is currently rolling out to Series2 customers currently using antenna as a signal source.


----------



## wmcbrine

No, 9.3c has been up for some time, and does _not_ include CECB support.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

With the Channel Master apparently only being available in my area out of the backs of vans down by the river, I opted for an Apex DT250 and an Insignia NS-DXA1-APT today from Best Buy. Whether I keep these or use them at Mom's remains to be seen. 

The audio cable that came with the Apex is WORTHLESS. It seems to attenuate about 75% of the loudness out of the signal. When I reached into my "cable stash" to find something different, its audio was just fine. Pic quality looks good, and the s-video is slightly sharper than composite. Pretty subtle difference.

The Insignia should work with the TiVo, though it's got the (Best Buy-specific?) "-APT" suffix on the model number compared to TiVo's approved list.


----------



## jrm01

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> The Insignia should work with the TiVo, though it's got the (Best Buy-specific?) "-APT" suffix on the model number compared to TiVo's approved list.


The APT model is an updated version of the same Insignia Box (made by LG). They just added one new feature: Analog Pass Thru, hence the suffix APT.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

jrm01 said:


> The APT model is an updated version of the same Insignia Box (made by LG). They just added one new feature: Analog Pass Thru, hence the suffix APT.


Well good grief, I guess I didn't work too hard at parsing the additional characters, now, did I?


----------



## wmcbrine

It's the "Insignia" brand itself that's Best Buy specific. The same unit is sold elsewhere as a Zenith.

And BTW, "Apex" is _not_ a Best Buy house brand. I thought TheGreenHornet might be implying that it was when he wrote "Best Buy's Apex", but I'm not sure.


----------



## TiVoJerry

David_NC said:


> When someone actually gets the new software, will they please post which IR code goes with which CECB?


Well now, lemme just go proactive and save you some guessing!

Access	DTA1010D *10094*
Apex	DT250 *10098*

Cadence	DTVC9 *10097*
Channel Master	CM-7000	*10092*
Coship	N9988T *10095*
Digital Stream	DTX9000/DTX9950	*UNSUPPORTED*
G.E.	22729	*10102*
Insignia NS-DXA1	*10090*
Lasonic	LTA-260	*10091*
Magnavox TB100MW9	*10086*
Microgem MGMG2000	*10096*
Motorola DSR-550	*UNSUPPORTED*
Philco	TB100HH9	*10101*
RCA	DTA800	*10087*
Sansonic FT-300A	*10091*
Tivax	STB-T9 *10103*
Venturer STB7766G	*10093*
Winegard RC-DT09	*10099*
Zenith	DTT900/DTT901	*10090*


----------



## Shawn95GT

Wow - Motoorola unsupported! I bet it's something with the sub-channel tuning .


----------



## TiVoJerry

Shawn95GT said:


> Wow - Motoorola unsupported! I bet it's something with the sub-channel tuning .


Nah. That's just an old VOOM sat receiver that someone asked about. We didn't want to bother with an out-of-date model that is not solely intended for use as a digital antenna converter.


----------



## gastrof

TiVoJerry said:


> Nah. That's just an old VOOM sat receiver that someone asked about. We didn't want to bother with an out-of-date model that is not solely intended for use as a digital antenna converter.


Funny. I know of someone who had pretty good success controling his Voom box with a TiVo.

Don't believe there was any hacking either.

Now...who could that have been....

Ummm...

Shawn? Do you remember?


----------



## TiVoJerry

Ah the fine line between "it works" and "it's supported". We weren't going to take the time to test it, but if there's an IR code that works without the delimiter I'll be happy to put that on our list as "reportedly works with <nnnnn>".


----------



## ronorr

I have an unactivated series 2 that has software 9.3 which I understand will lock up when try to configure with an antenna. I see the prioriy page lets you ack for 9.3c which will fix the scan lock up problem. If I activate service will I immediately get the software version that will allow antenna configuration.

Thanks, Ron


----------



## TiVoJerry

ronorr said:


> I have an unactivated series 2 that has software 9.3 which I understand will lock up when try to configure with an antenna. I see the prioriy page lets you ack for 9.3c which will fix the scan lock up problem. If I activate service will I immediately get the software version that will allow antenna configuration.
> 
> Thanks, Ron


Upgrading does not require service. All units that connect to the service will update to the latest version they are auth'd for.


----------



## ronorr

Well, I have done just that so I will wait for 9.3c or 9.3.1. Wish me luck. When I get a software update I will reestablish my service.

Actually, I established active service on 26 July for this series 2. 9.3 was pushed to my box and I could no longer configure the antenna scan without the scan freeze problem. I called tech support and they kept giving me the "wait 3 days" mantra. No sofeware though. Every level 1 and 2 tech rep (well meaning but useless) said they had no way of forcing a software download and would not go up the food chain until they found someone who could. On 11 Aug I called up tivo and said either force the download or I will discontinue the (useless) service. The rep made one more query to his level 2 with no useful result so I canceled service. Paying a fee for useless subsciption did not appeal.

The Tivo Priority request page for 9.3c (the only one active that I can find) has two broken links on it.

Ron



TiVoJerry said:


> Upgrading does not require service. All units that connect to the service will update to the latest version they are auth'd for.


----------



## TiVoJerry

I'm sorry you ran into this issue. I've inquired as to why the software priority requests for 9.3c have not been processed this last week and will also look into the broken links.

If you'll send me a PM with your case and TSN info, I'll look into getting you auth'd and coach the agents who mishandled your case.



ronorr said:


> Well, I have done just that so I will wait for 9.3c or 9.3.1. Wish me luck. When I get a software update I will reestablish my service.
> 
> Actually, I established active service on 26 July for this series 2. 9.3 was pushed to my box and I could no longer configure the antenna scan without the scan freeze problem. I called tech support and they kept giving me the "wait 3 days" mantra. No sofeware though. Every level 1 and 2 tech rep (well meaning but useless) said they had no way of forcing a software download and would not go up the food chain until they found someone who could. On 11 Aug I called up tivo and said either force the download or I will discontinue the (useless) service. The rep made one more query to his level 2 with no useful result so I canceled service. Paying a fee for useless subsciption did not appeal.
> 
> The Tivo Priority request page for 9.3c (the only one active that I can find) has two broken links on it.
> 
> Ron


----------



## Amiga

TiVoJerry said:


> Well now, lemme just go proactive and save you some guessing!
> 
> Digital Stream	DTX9000/DTX9950	*UNSUPPORTED*
> Motorola DSR-550	*UNSUPPORTED*


TiVoJerry can you please enlighten the folks here who own an EchoStar / DISH Network DTV DTVPal on whether you plan on supporting or not supporting the puppy? I'm _hoping_ the lawsuit isn't holding back potential support of this product.


----------



## Amiga

:down: I called about getting the whole 9.3.1c / 9.3c (_whatever handles the digital converters_) update since I am using an antenna as my only source. A TiVo CSR said that they ceased the 9.3.1c update and that we must wait for 9.4.

A tad sad since I pulled the ol' Humax out of the closet because of the converter box update announcement.


----------



## classicsat

The CSR is wrong. 9.3c is still available. PM TiVoJerry your TSN if you need it. 9.3.1 is the one for Digital OTA support, and should be out very soon.


----------



## TiVoJerry

The priority page allows you to sign up for 9.3c and has not been taken down. There was a slight delay sweeping TSNs in this last week, but that has been remedied. The agent has his version numbers all muxed.

Keep in mind that 9.3c is only intended to fix a problem with channel scan during analog antenna setup. It does not provide support for digital antenna.

9.3.1 is the version that allows control of digital OTA converters, and the rep is correct that this version is not yet available to the general public. We are still in the evaluation phase of the release where we determine what the overall impact of the rollout will be to our call center. Once we have that understanding, the rollout to the general public will proceed and the priority page will be changed to allow you to request 9.3.1 earlier.


----------



## tkoyn

TiVoJerry said:


> Well now, lemme just go proactive and save you some guessing!
> 
> Access	DTA1010D *10094*
> Apex	DT250 *10098*
> Artec	T3A Pro *10100*
> Cadence	DTVC9 *10097*
> Channel Master	CM-7000	*10092*
> Coship	N9988T *10095*
> Digital Stream	DTX9000/DTX9950	*UNSUPPORTED*
> G.E.	22729	*10102*
> Insignia NS-DXA1	*10090*
> Lasonic	LTA-260	*10091*
> Magnavox TB100MW9	*10086*
> Microgem MGMG2000	*10096*
> Motorola DSR-550	*UNSUPPORTED*
> Philco	TB100HH9	*10101*
> RCA	DTA800	*10087*
> Sansonic FT-300A	*10091*
> Tivax	STB-T9 *10103*
> Venturer STB7766G	*10093*
> Winegard RC-DT09	*10099*
> Zenith	DTT900/DTT901	*10090*


So, will the Insignia NS-DXA1-APT also be supported, under code 10090?

I see the Apex DT250 has a code, but its not on the official list. When will the official list at http://www3.tivo.com/setupandsupport/digitaltrans/digitaltrans.html be updated?


----------



## TiVoJerry

tkoyn said:


> So, will the Insignia NS-DXA1-APT also be supported, under code 10090?
> 
> I see the Apex DT250 has a code, but its not on the official list. When will the official list at http://www3.tivo.com/setupandsupport/digitaltrans/digitaltrans.html be updated?


You are correct about the Insignia.

Good catch on the website. I'll let them know.


----------



## tkoyn

TiVoJerry said:


> You are correct about the Insignia.
> 
> Good catch on the website. I'll let them know.


I would suggest that both Insignia models be on the list and in general, when two or more slightly different boxes are known to be alike enough to both work on the same codes to list all such model numbers.

Also, TivoJerry, I submitted my aspect ratio suggestions I posted in this thread on the form you suggested in the PM. I did not hear anything back. Do you know or can you find out what engineering is doing with the idea? Thanks.


----------



## TiVoJerry

There's always the likelihood that minor revisions will come out. We will add them when we are made aware of them.

I am not in a position to speak to any specific Feature Enhancement requests submitted to http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/, but I can say that they generally take time to develop and implement. Anything submitted recently would likely not be available for awhile unless we'd already been working on it.


----------



## tkoyn

TiVoJerry said:


> There's always the likelihood that minor revisions will come out. We will add them when we are made aware of them.
> 
> I am not in a position to speak to any specific Feature Enhancement requests submitted to http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/, but I can say that they generally take time to develop and implement. Anything submitted recently would likely not be available for awhile unless we'd already been working on it.


I hope the engineers were already considering the fact that the TiVo would need to change aspect ratio settings for each program as it works through the to do list and I wrote to provide some detailed thoughts that I hope they will use to solve the problem better. If they cannot fully do it with the initial converter box support I hope they will address it the following update. I hope that TiVo users are not left with having to either record every show with the same aspect ratio setting or remember to manually change the setting in the box between the recordings.


----------



## Shawn95GT

tkoyn said:


> I hope the engineers were already considering the fact that the TiVo would need to change aspect ratio settings for each program as it works through the to do list and I wrote to provide some detailed thoughts that I hope they will use to solve the problem better. If they cannot fully do it with the initial converter box support I hope they will address it the following update. I hope that TiVo users are not left with having to either record every show with the same aspect ratio setting or remember to manually change the setting in the box between the recordings.


I think this will be more a function of the converter box and how it handles SD / HD sources.

In my case I was doing HD 'squished' into a 4:3 frame and I was pillar boxing SD content headed into the Tivo. when played back and stretched back out on my HDTV it looked great.

Now if you have a 4:3 TV you could do the same. Set HD to Letterbox / zoom / whatever on the converter box and have SD come over as-is.

All the Tivo sees is 4:3 video coming in, no matter what it looks like to your eyes.


----------



## tkoyn

Shawn95GT said:


> I think this will be more a function of the converter box and how it handles SD / HD sources.


But the Tivo needs to be able to control which choice is used depending on the broadcast. If you are just using the converter by itself, you may find a desire to change the mode manually depending on the show. It should be possible to set Tivo to do it for you when recording, under recording options. For a fuller explanation, please see my posts on page 19 of this thread, numbers 557 and 558.


----------



## Shawn95GT

What you aren't understanding is that S2 hardware does not do 16:9. Only 4:3. Garbage in, garbage out.

Aspect control on the STB is going to be set it and forget it. If the STB handles it stupidly (doesn't have separate settings for HD & SD) then you just have to live with it.

Just remember - regardless of what you see on the TV, the picture the Tivo records is 4:3. The black bars are not genned by the Tivo, they are part of the 4:3 frame the STB is putting out.

16:9 squished into 4:3 frame (for a 16:9 TV on 4:3 stretch), viewed on a 4:3 TV:









4:3 ina 4:3 frame (would look 'fat' on a 16x9 TV), viewed on a 4:3 TV:









I don't have a pic but I could set the STB to auto letterbox the 16:9 stuff and it would all look perfect on a 4:3 TV (Well it'd be letter boxed with the broadcast pillar box).


----------



## Shawn95GT

The Tivo doesn't need to know if it's wide screen or not. Anything on a HD channel is wide screen (they add the pillar box for for SD content on the HD channel). The alternative is to record from a SD digital channel if it's available to get 4:3 content without the pillar box.

It sounds like you might want to zoom the wide screen content when you deem it necessary but this just isn't going to be feasible. Even the S3/THDs don't do this. The S3/THD records it as broadcast and if you have it in 4:3 mode you can zoom / letterbox / etc. It can do this because it handles and can differentiate 16:9 content. The S2s do not. It sees all content as the same - 4:3. It would be a global setting on the S2. You can already fix it globally via the STB so it doesn't make much sense to do it on the S2 Tivo too.


----------



## bgiannes

del


----------



## pcbrew

Looks like a couple of my S2's have gotten the early push of the update (9.3.1.Kxxxx) sometime back (I was out for 2 weeks on business). However, I did not get a message on the box with info on the update as I thought was typical. 

Have others seens this - received 9.3.1 but no notification of new SW?

I had been waiting for this but really wanted to use the CECB to augment analog cable as I was doing with an old Voom box to give me an option to record 16:9 network content with a higher quality input than the 4:3 version on analog cable. 

However, that option is not going to be offered for setup (analog cable + OTA converter) so I'll be stuck with using the hack for the Voom set up as a pseudo-Dish box.

BTW, I am actually using this setup with on my S2DT to record the Olympics on NBC OTA and it's a pretty good compromise for archiving the Olympics, esp since I was traveling the first week. I have all eps still on the HDD, including the Opening ceremony at about 2GB/hour.


----------



## dlt123

pcbrew said:


> Looks like a couple of my S2's have gotten the early push of the update (9.3.1.Kxxxx) sometime back (I was out for 2 weeks on business). However, I did not get a message on the box with info on the update as I thought was typical.
> 
> Have others seens this - received 9.3.1 but no notification of new SW?


I am still waiting for my software update. I put in for the update on the TIVO website over a week ago and still haven't received the update.

As of now, my software version is 9.3-01-2-540.

I thought if we entered on Tivo service number on the TIVO site, we would be getting the update. Do I need to enter my service number again? 

Thanks,
Dennis


----------



## CuriousMark

Not yet. Watch this thread for a post by TiVoJerry. He will let us know when the time comes for that. 

Right now the website will get you 9.3c which will let you get through guided setup when trying to set up for over the air antenna, as posted above.


----------



## TiVoJerry

CuriousMark said:


> Not yet. Watch this thread for a post by TiVoJerry. He will let us know when the time comes for that.
> 
> Right now the website will get you 9.3c which will let you get through guided setup when trying to set up for over the air antenna, as posted above.


With a lead-in like that, I can't pass up the chance to let you guys get your name on the list at the earliest opportunity. 

So.......even though the wording is not yet updated, feel free to use the current priority page (www.tivo.com/priority) to add your TSN to request 9.3.1. If you've added it in the last few days and not received 9.3c, you will automatically be mapped to 9.3.1.

I'll do my best to let you know when you can start forcing connections to get the SW.


----------



## Amiga

I got 9.3.1 this evening _without_ any on-screen notice. I only learned this after I decided to _manually_ restart my TiVo.

So, now that we have DTV OTA lovin', do we do another guided setup to make it work with a converter box? Also, what about the converter's sound level, is this something that needs to be experimented with?

Debating about whether to buy the TiVo its own Channel Master CM-7000 or just use my existing DISH Network DTVPal through the satellite setup workaround. Any souls out there know whether you can buy a replacement IR Blaster at Fry's? My remote and other goodies got misplaced in a move.


----------



## magnus

Yes, you'll need to re-run guided setup. The IR blasters can be purchased on ebay or Tivo.com.



Amiga said:


> I got 9.3.1 this evening _without_ any on-screen notice. I only learned this after I decided to _manually_ restart my TiVo.
> 
> So, now that we have DTV OTA lovin', do we do another guided setup to make it work with a converter box? Also, what about the converter's sound level, is this something that needs to be experimented with?
> 
> Debating about whether to buy the TiVo its own Channel Master CM-7000 or just use my existing DISH Network DTVPal through the satellite setup workaround. Any souls out there know whether you can buy a replacement IR Blaster at Fry's? My remote and other goodies got misplaced in a move.


----------



## larkor

I just received the 9.3.1 update. It works great with my Zenith DTT901.


----------



## TiVoJerry

Yes, this is a release that will not come with a message built into the SW. We plan on messaging antenna customers at a later point. 

As for DTVPal, we do not currently have support for that model but are working on it. Luckily that only requires an update to the IRDB and not a SW rollout. I'll let you know as we make progress on this model.


----------



## TheGreenHornet

Early this morning, I noticed my S2 Tivo was "on the phone" with Tivo for an extra long time. Could it be that I was getting the long awaited software update for the OTA digital conversion with my new Insignia box? YES!

As Tivo Jerry mentions - you do not get a new update alert message - but rather a "restart pending" in the systems menu. After the Tivo restarts, the rerun of the setup went flawlessly. The menus are inituitive and detailed. I found the guided setup helpful at:

http://www3.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/prm/digital-transition/Antenna_Converter_Instructions.pdf

The Insignia box and the Tivo remote started changing channels immediately during the setup and through out the tests. Once the Tivo is set up quickly - I have a digital down converted signal on an analog set that looks great with all the Tivo functions.

You do have to readjust your season passes from the analog channel and update it to the digital channel.

Tivo Jerry: You and the Tivo team did an excellent job on the OTA update. Thanks again!


----------



## j4jason83

I know that Tivo says that the S2DT Tivos can't do OTA, but that is how mine has been working for a few years now. I have been trying to figure out how or what I need to do to continue to make sure it works. I have the 180 hour version. My number starts with 649. When I set it up, I was told to select Comcast for my guide info. But I dont have cable at my place at all.

Does anyone have any info or suggestions. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Amiga

TiVoJerry said:


> As for DTVPal, we do not currently have support for that model but are working on it. Luckily that only requires an update to the IRDB and not a SW rollout. I'll let you know as we make progress on this model.


Thank you TiVoJerry for the update on the DTVPal. Man, just got into DTV OTA, which is sweet, and this TiVo update is the icing on the cake!

On another note, EchoStar / DISH Network is selling a rebadged DTVPal now for $40, the TR-40 CRA. Hopefully you can let your engineers know that this is the same exact box. Also, see this link.


----------



## jrm01

j4jason83 said:


> I know that Tivo says that the S2DT Tivos can't do OTA, but that is how mine has been working for a few years now. I have been trying to figure out how or what I need to do to continue to make sure it works. I have the 180 hour version. My number starts with 649. When I set it up, I was told to select Comcast for my guide info. But I dont have cable at my place at all.
> 
> Does anyone have any info or suggestions. Thanks in advance.


The 649 series is the TiVo Series 2 Dual Tuner and it does not have OTA capability. Are you saying that you have an antenna connected to it and it is working?

What do you mean you "were told to select Comcast"? Who told you this?

What type of antenna do you have? Indoor? roof top? Apartment shared? Community antenna?


----------



## TiVoJerry

Amiga said:


> Thank you TiVoJerry for the update on the DTVPal. Man, just got into DTV OTA, which is sweet, and this TiVo update is the icing on the cake!
> 
> On another note, EchoStar / DISH Network is selling a rebadged DTVPal now for $40, the TR-40 CRA. Hopefully you can let your engineers know that this is the same exact box. Also, see this link.


Hopefully it's the same box.


----------



## j4jason83

jrm01 said:


> The 649 series is the TiVo Series 2 Dual Tuner and it does not have OTA capability. Are you saying that you have an antenna connected to it and it is working?
> 
> What do you mean you "were told to select Comcast"? Who told you this?
> 
> What type of antenna do you have? Indoor? roof top? Apartment shared? Community antenna?


Yes, I have the Series 2 Dual Tuner. I ONLY have antenna. It plugs in the back and out to the TV using RCA plugs. I have been using it this way since it was new. When I called to activate it, Tivo said to select Comcast for the source, even though I dont have them.


----------



## classicsat

j4jason83 said:


> I know that Tivo says that the S2DT Tivos can't do OTA, but that is how mine has been working for a few years now. I have been trying to figure out how or what I need to do to continue to make sure it works.


Simply upgrade to a TiVo HD, or subscribe to cable.

Otherwise you can run guided setup for cable or satellite box, and use a compatible IR for one of the OTA boxes, and get minimal working.


----------



## Amiga

TiVoJerry said:


> I honestly do not want to spend any money buying another of _their _boxes for testing.


Maybe with the settlement agreement you can get a $40 converter box out of EchoStar! _Sorry, I had to._ 

So I don't have to make another post, anyone have a screenshot of how the TiVo Series2 channel guide handles DTV's subchannels?


----------



## dlt123

TiVoJerry said:


> With a lead-in like that, I can't pass up the chance to let you guys get your name on the list at the earliest opportunity.
> 
> So.......even though the wording is not yet updated, feel free to use the current priority page (www.tivo.com/priority) to add your TSN to request 9.3.1. If you've added it in the last few days and not received 9.3c, you will automatically be mapped to 9.3.1.
> 
> I'll do my best to let you know when you can start forcing connections to get the SW.


Jerry, please send my 'Thank You' along to those who has made this possible. So far I have been able to access my Channel Master and have been able to program future channel programming. So far so good.

This is great, I now get more channels than Cable and the picture quality is far superior. I'll continue testing this out and if I have problems will post them here.

Thanks again,
Dennis


----------



## pkrey

I got my Zenith DTT901 (May build) and Tivo update on the same day! Works like a champ.
Thanks TivoJerry for the priority heads up.

Thank Tivo for the continued support!


----------



## tkoyn

I am thinking about getting the ChannelMaster CM7000, but I read in the manual (downloaded for review) it has autosleep mode and goes in standby automatically after 4 hours. I do not see anything in the manual to allow disabling the automatic standby mode.

Is Tivo able to send the remote code to wake it from standby mode before sending the channel number for a show to record?


----------



## Amiga

tkoyn said:


> I am thinking about getting the ChannelMaster CM7000, but I read in the manual (downloaded for review) it has autosleep mode and goes in standby automatically after 4 hours. I do not see anything in the manual to allow disabling the automatic standby mode.


Fry's has this model on display in one of their DFW stores. You may want to buy it at a retail location without using your coupon(s) and retail rent it. Also, go over to this AVS forum to get help with the converter.


----------



## restart88

j4jason83 said:


> I know that Tivo says that the S2DT Tivos can't do OTA, but that is how mine has been working for a few years now. I have been trying to figure out how or what I need to do to continue to make sure it works. I have the 180 hour version. My number starts with 649. When I set it up, I was told to select Comcast for my guide info. But I dont have cable at my place at all.
> 
> Does anyone have any info or suggestions. Thanks in advance.





classicsat said:


> Simply upgrade to a TiVo HD, or subscribe to cable.
> 
> Otherwise you can run guided setup for cable or satellite box, and use a compatible IR for one of the OTA boxes, and get minimal working.


I'm not sure you understood the question. The poster has it working now and obviously Tivo HD is not the issue at hand. It's ok. We all overlook the obvious at times. 

Yes, a good deal on Tivo HD today is the way to go to insure you will always have access to locals as odds are pretty good this is about as cheap as it will ever be and any new replacement will at least cost more for quite a while if history is any indication.

To answer the question the answer as best I know it is it will work until it doesn't. Since you only have manual access to sub channels you will probably still have access to that method but I wouldn't bank on a solution to that.

Just a guess but should the cable or DBS provider you tricked the DT Tivo into believing you had provide sub channels it seems _possible _that you will have them because Tivo thinks it's just another channel. But then comes the issue of how 3 digits are handled! Now we have a problem because the work-around is a 2 digit solution.

So in this event I suspect you will be left with either just main channels or it possibly may stop working at all in the future. But to increase your chances that it could work at least be sure your converter _can _ accept a 3 digit code and interpret it as XX.X without typing the dot.

Admittedly I'm basically venturing a fair guess. I have no idea how cable & DBS will handle the sub channel issue in the future. My 2 local cablecos don't always match the air channels even now, for example. So what DBS will do about sub channels for SD receivers is just a guess but I don't think they'll have them available at all without an HD box short of an act of Congress.


----------



## Todd Miller

Got the 9.3.1 update the other day and re-ran guided setup. However, the Zenith/Insignia CECBs are not listed as options for antenna + box, though all the other ones mentioned earlier are. Any idea why they would be missing from the setup menu?


----------



## tkoyn

Amiga said:


> Fry's has this model on display in one of their DFW stores. You may want to buy it at a retail location without using your coupon(s) and retail rent it. Also, go over to this AVS forum to get help with the converter.


I don't have a Fry's near me. I am just wondering, can the Tivo deal with this by sending the IR code to wake up the box?


----------



## larkor

Todd Miller said:


> Got the 9.3.1 update the other day and re-ran guided setup. However, the Zenith/Insignia CECBs are not listed as options for antenna + box, though all the other ones mentioned earlier are. Any idea why they would be missing from the setup menu?


Choose the antenna only selection. You will then be prompted to choose which CECB you have.


----------



## Todd Miller

I did that. The other CECBs are listed, just not Zenith/Insignia.


----------



## TiVoJerry

tkoyn said:


> I am thinking about getting the ChannelMaster CM7000, but I read in the manual (downloaded for review) it has autosleep mode and goes in standby automatically after 4 hours. I do not see anything in the manual to allow disabling the automatic standby mode.
> 
> Is Tivo able to send the remote code to wake it from standby mode before sending the channel number for a show to record?


The Channel Master has a menu item to disable it. Our IR commands do not include a wake up command.


----------



## TiVoJerry

Todd Miller said:


> Got the 9.3.1 update the other day and re-ran guided setup. However, the Zenith/Insignia CECBs are not listed as options for antenna + box, though all the other ones mentioned earlier are. Any idea why they would be missing from the setup menu?


I'll look into this.


----------



## bradm42

Got the update and made the call to Comcast to cut the cord. OTA only, here I come.


----------



## ehgreen

Using D to A Converter box w 2-Dual to get EXTRA Digi Channels

Have been using Radio Shack marketed Digital to Analog $60 box for two months to receive about 1/2 of the local channels. Other half are the opposite side of my condo, not "visable" to the simple bow tie antenna.

Lineup shows up correctly Merged with the OTA and Cable Local channels intermixed, and the extra digital channels just after the primary.

Didn't know I needed 9.3.1 !


----------



## restart88

Todd Miller said:


> I did that. The other CECBs are listed, just not Zenith/Insignia.


I got got the update within 24 hours of requesting through the link.

Yes, Zenith IS there but you first have to choose "other" from the list and it comes up on the next page. In fact I'm using the 901 and it works fine.

Just nitpicking but if memory serves some of the setup pages seem refer to a cable box when of course they meant to refer to the converter.


----------



## dlt123

bradm42 said:


> Got the update and made the call to Comcast to cut the cord. OTA only, here I come.


I called and canceled Comcast cable today. I'm now only OTA and am enjoying having 27 stations without any public access and other channels I never watched.

Tivo works great with my Channel Master... Thanks again TIVO...

I love my Tivo!!!
Dennis


----------



## dlt123

tkoyn said:


> I am thinking about getting the ChannelMaster CM7000, but I read in the manual (downloaded for review) it has autosleep mode and goes in standby automatically after 4 hours. I do not see anything in the manual to allow disabling the automatic standby mode.
> 
> Is Tivo able to send the remote code to wake it from standby mode before sending the channel number for a show to record?


Tkoyn, with the CM remote press the *MENU *button... This will bring up the setup screen.

Notice the third icon on the left, the one with the wrench and screwdriver graphics, move the cursor down by pressing the *DOWN *arrow till it is highlighted...

press the *OK *button, press the *DOWN *arrow button till the *Auto Pwr Down* button is orange, click *OK *then move the cursor down to the *Auto Power Down* is highlighted... Press the *OK* button this highlights the *Auto Power Down* box... make sure the check box is *empty*... Then click the *EXIT *button and your done.

Hope this helps,
Dennis


----------



## cia_viewer

Amiga said:


> ... Any souls out there know whether you can buy a replacement IR Blaster at Fry's? My remote and other goodies got misplaced in a move.


I bought a replacement IR Blaster through TiVo:
+6.99+"IR Control Cable"
TIV TiVo Service (877)367-8486


----------



## steve614

cia_viewer said:


> I bought a replacement IR Blaster through TiVo:
> +6.99+"IR Control Cable"
> TIV TiVo Service (877)367-8486


Did you get them sooner than expected like I did? 

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=403105


----------



## restart88

Say speaking of the setup process no biggie but I noticed Sky Angel, which of course was associated with Dish in that they used the same equipment and had a contracted relationship. Never saw it in any previous setup screen as a stand alone that I recall. Unfortunately SA DBS died months ago and I am doubting this refers to SA IPTV.


----------



## Doghof

classicsat said:


> There is no reason they should not be compatible with the upgrade and the convertor boxes.


Boy, am I confused about the Toshibas. I called Tivo and asked the operator why I couldn't put my Toshiba request in for the digital update on the official site. They said they were not going to support the toshibas. But at this site
http://research.tivo.com/931priority/index.htm it looks like I can request an update for my toshiba since it has a 264 number. Is this the site to request the update? Before when I tried to request an update it wouldn't take my 264 number (I can't seem to find the link now).


----------



## larkor

Doghof said:


> Boy, am I confused about the Toshibas. I called Tivo and asked the operator why I couldn't put my Toshiba request in for the digital update on the official site. They said they were not going to support the toshibas. But at this site
> http://research.tivo.com/931priority/index.htm it looks like I can request an update for my toshiba since it has a 264 number. Is this the site to request the update? Before when I tried to request an update it wouldn't take my 264 number (I can't seem to find the link now).


I would try again with the 931 priority site. My Toshiba 565 updated perfectly.


----------



## classicsat

The Toshiba units can tune antenna, so are supposed to be eligible for the update.


----------



## Doghof

larkor said:


> I would try again with the 931 priority site. My Toshiba 565 updated perfectly.


Where exactly is that site? I tried to find it and tried a search with "931 priority" with no results. (remember, my toshiba starts with a 264)


----------



## larkor

http://research.tivo.com/931priority/index.htm


----------



## Doghof

larkor said:


> I would try again with the 931 priority site. My Toshiba 565 updated perfectly.





larkor said:


> http://research.tivo.com/931priority/index.htm


Ok, that's the original site I asked about.


Doghof said:


> Boy, am I confused about the Toshibas. I called Tivo and asked the operator why I couldn't put my Toshiba request in for the digital update on the official site. They said they were not going to support the toshibas. But at this site
> http://research.tivo.com/931priority/index.htm it looks like I can request an update for my toshiba since it has a 264 number. Is this the site to request the update? Before when I tried to request an update it wouldn't take my 264 number (I can't seem to find the link now).


 And so I put my number in and it said I would get an update in 3 days. I'm assuming then this is 1) the site for the digital update and 2) the tivo operator either did not understand my question or was told it would not update? (I'm putting this information in for other Toshiba owners)


----------



## pcbrew

Amiga said:


> Fry's has this model on display in one of their DFW stores. ...


*Amiga* - which DFW Fry's has this?


----------



## restart88

So far my only complaint with respect to adding the converter is sometimes when I'm on a sat channel and change to OTA it tunes to the sat local channel instead of the converter. 

This seems to be a glitch as I have never had locals with that DBS service and have never set up that Tivo for DBS locals. I also have the program guide set to "Channels I Receive" and of course I have the DBS local channels unchecked in the setup.

I don't know yet if it also happens with automated recordings (though I figure it would) as most of my OTA Season Passes are set up on the other Tivo and so far none of them that are still setup have had new programming scheduled yet.


----------



## magnus

Are you trying to control 2 external boxes on your Tivo at once? I'm not sure that is supported or would even work.



restart88 said:


> So far my only complaint with respect to adding the converter is sometimes when I'm on a sat channel and change to OTA it tunes to the sat local channel instead of the converter.
> 
> This seems to be a glitch as I have never had locals with that DBS service and have never set up that Tivo for DBS locals. I also have the program guide set to "Channels I Receive" and of course I have the DBS local channels unchecked in the setup.
> 
> I don't know yet if it also happens with automated recordings (though I figure it would) as most of my OTA Season Passes are set up on the other Tivo and so far none of them that are still setup have had new programming scheduled yet.


----------



## Amiga

pcbrew said:


> which DFW Fry's has this?


Fry's Store Locator

The Dallas store, 12710 Executive Drive, had the Channel Master box in the middle of an aisle hooked up to a TV.

The Irving location, at the store entrance on an endcap, _may_ have had the converter box hooked up because I saw an ugly remote very Channel Master-like, but I didn't see the box other than the unopened ones for sale on a shelf below. It could have been a new TV by itself and an antenna they are trying to push.


----------



## Shawn95GT

restart88 said:


> So far my only complaint with respect to adding the converter is sometimes when I'm on a sat channel and change to OTA it tunes to the sat local channel instead of the converter.
> 
> This seems to be a glitch as I have never had locals with that DBS service and have never set up that Tivo for DBS locals. I also have the program guide set to "Channels I Receive" and of course I have the DBS local channels unchecked in the setup.
> 
> I don't know yet if it also happens with automated recordings (though I figure it would) as most of my OTA Season Passes are set up on the other Tivo and so far none of them that are still setup have had new programming scheduled yet.


Are you saying it let you choose sat & antenna (with a box)? If so, cool.

Anyways, I had this problem with my 'work around'. I'm assuming the problem you're having is you enter say '121' for 12-1 and the satellite tunes to 121.

Simple enter the channel number again (121 in this case) and the Tivo will switch to the other source. It simply remembered the last one I used. In my case it wasn't a big deal because I got the same channel either way - the difference was the quality.

Now if your problem is that it's choosing the Sat channel because it's the sat channel you need to edit the 'channels I receive' list.


----------



## pcbrew

Amiga said:


> The Dallas store, 12710 Executive Drive, had the Channel Master box in the middle of an aisle hooked up to a TV.
> 
> The Irving location, at the store entrance on an endcap, _may_ have had the converter box hooked up because I saw an ugly remote very Channel Master-like, but I didn't see the box other than the unopened ones for sale on a shelf below. It could have been a new TV by itself and an antenna they are trying to push.


Thanks, I checked at the Plano store a couple weeks ago and they had nothing except some blank spots on but the the sheves. The shelf markers they had did not include the CM.


----------



## classicsat

magnus said:


> Are you trying to control 2 external boxes on your Tivo at once? I'm not sure that is supported or would even work.


Single tuner Series 1/2s support two boxes fine , so long as one is satellite.


----------



## magnus

Ok, but how can they control more than 1 box at a time? With serial and IR cables??

And would the option of satellite (w/ box) and OTA (w/ box) be an option on the new software?



classicsat said:


> Single tuner Series 1/2s support two boxes fine , so long as one is satellite.


----------



## David_NC

magnus said:


> Ok, but how can they control more than 1 box at a time? With serial and IR cables??


There are 2 emitters on the IR blaster cable - use one emitter for each box, and you can control two boxes, as long as they don't use the same IR codes (both emitters send the same codes, but each box will only respond to its own IR code, and ignore anything else). Don't know if its possible to set one up for serial, and the other for IR blaster.


----------



## restart88

Shawn95GT said:


> Are you saying it let you choose sat & antenna (with a box)? If so, cool.
> 
> Anyways, I had this problem with my 'work around'. I'm assuming the problem you're having is you enter say '121' for 12-1 and the satellite tunes to 121.
> 
> Simple enter the channel number again (121 in this case) and the Tivo will switch to the other source. It simply remembered the last one I used. In my case it wasn't a big deal because I got the same channel either way - the difference was the quality.
> 
> Now if your problem is that it's choosing the Sat channel because it's the sat channel you need to edit the 'channels I receive' list.


Like I said I did remove the sat channels from my receive list.

It's actually not so cool since it won't be recording anything from the sat channel since there's no sat locals.

It's one DBS receiver and one D/A converter box. I suppose if I had sat locals it wouldn't be a big deal.

For clarification this is not my S2DT that works perfectly well with the work-around. This is my 540 acting up.


----------



## magnus

Oh, that's interesting. I never knew that. I wonder if they put the ability to do that with new software. Satellite and OTA on same box.



David_NC said:


> There are 2 emitters on the IR blaster cable - use one emitter for each box, and you can control two boxes, as long as they don't use the same IR codes (both emitters send the same codes, but each box will only respond to its own IR code, and ignore anything else). Don't know if its possible to set one up for serial, and the other for IR blaster.


----------



## restart88

You need ver 9.3.1 and a link for the priority list is a few posts back in this thread I believe. I got my update within 24 hours of my request.

Just to clarify this does not work with S2DT. It's only for boxes that have analog OTA tuners built in.


----------



## classicsat

magnus said:


> Oh, that's interesting. I never knew that. I wonder if they put the ability to do that with new software. Satellite and OTA on same box.


Don't get.

Electronically, the blaster is one device connected to one circuit. Both emitter LEDs blast the same signal.

The software chooses what input (RF or A/V) and blaster code to use. It is incumbent on the boxes to use non conflicting codes to prevent conflicts, although it shouldn't matter, since the other box is not used, unless the conflicting code does weird things to it that make it unusable when it is needed again.

Single tuners models have supported two boxes for a very long time.

! the exception is units with the TiVo Basic service. My understanding is they can only be set up for only one source when operating in TiVo Basic mode. Dual source mode requires a Plus subscription on those models.


----------



## Puppy76

Sorry-for some reason I haven't gotten updates for this thread. Is the update to support converter boxes out? I know it was in beta. I've got a Magnavox box, and I guess I'm planning on testing this out as soon as it's available, and then canceling cable after a week or two of making sure it works.


----------



## classicsat

At this point it time, it is out, but only if you are on the prority list, or one that think ought to have it early for some reason.


----------



## TheGreenHornet

Puppy76 said:


> Sorry-for some reason I haven't gotten updates for this thread. Is the update to support converter boxes out? I know it was in beta. I've got a Magnavox box, and I guess I'm planning on testing this out as soon as it's available, and then canceling cable after a week or two of making sure it works.


Puppy:
I got the digital conversion box update early last week without requesting it! Per my previous post last week - I noticed that the daily update was taking forever on the phone. When it was done - the system information said "pending restart" - which was my cue to do so. And boom - there it was - ready for the converter box installation. Set up is a snap taking the usual menu shuffle setup time.

My 13 year old Sony Triniton and series 2 works great together! The down converted to analog signal is better than the miserable analog signal I was paying for from Comcast.

Sidenote: I just got a greeting card from Comcast saying they were sad to see me go and that they lost me as a customer. Comcast has a survey company calling daily to find out why I left as a customer. I do not answer their call. I often wonder just how many defections Comcast really has due to their customers upgrading to free OTA television. They never mention OTA when in the press they blame Verizon FIOS for taking their customers.


----------



## bgiannes

got 9.3.1 install, (been waiting a long time for it). i have an 'insignia' digial converter box. which i selected during setup.... (Tivo servies 2 single tunner)

the channeling is very touchy, it only works 75% of the time? It ends up changing to some wrong channel, it seems that sometimes the convert dosen't have time to see what Tivo is trying to enter, or the " - " ends up in the wrong place? eg trying for channel 40-1 and i get 4-1..... or going for 50-4 and i get 54-1 or even 4-1??? 

i tended to have more luck with the channel up down button, which if you go slow (ie wait until the menu bar goes away) its about 90% correct. But it doen't seem to like 'hi' sub channels like 5-5 or 50-4, 50-5 etc.

evey now and again it finds a blank channel and gets itself stuck!? then i need the converter's remote to change the channel back to sometime like 2-1

(tonight i'm going to try setup IR code "10075-B" for it) what the hec....

[oh and yes the IR blasters are in the correct location, as i was running a "fake/cable setup as a work around" which changed channels just fine a day ago]

oh and another thing.... when i select a channel from the guide screen and the tivo correctly changes the channel, the Tivo pop up menu displays the wrong channel and info? eg i select channel 50-1 Tivo goes to 50-1 but the tivo menu displays 2-1? this is not a good thing!

another thing.... sorry for rambling.... some TV shows in the guide show very big episode data? eg friends was on and the guide said it was episode 5124? other tv shows displayed simular wrong data?

any other ideas, help?

lucky i waited until the olympics where over before loading 9.3.1...


----------



## restart88

At first I only noticed a problem when switching between DBS & converter but have lately noticed this problem when just switching between converter channels. I think your guess of 75% is about right. I might even claim as much as 85% success. But of course that 15% failure is even too high if you have a lot of Season Passes.


----------



## rainbow

tkoyn said:


> So, will the Insignia NS-DXA1-APT also be supported, under code 10090?
> 
> I see the Apex DT250 has a code, but its not on the official list. When will the official list at http://www3.tivo.com/setupandsupport/digitaltrans/digitaltrans.html be updated?


Does one enter these codes instead of your zipcode?


----------



## classicsat

No, you enter the code in the advanced IR channel changing options.


----------



## bgiannes

i tryed 10075B... but then i was getting errors so i'm now using 10090A (default was 10090?)

in the last day i think i'm at 99&#37; channel changing to the correct number  the season passes are all working well... 


note: the tivo menu (displays channel 2-1) when the channel is 1st changed, but when you press "info" the correct info is shown... only somethings the metadata is missing all together.... but still shows up in the guide....

tivo must be sorting thing out?...


anyone know how to enter the " - " on the tivo remote? or is it just not supported?


----------



## larkor

bgiannes said:


> i tryed 10075B... but then i was getting errors so i'm now using 10090A (default was 10090?)
> 
> in the last day i think i'm at 99% channel changing to the correct number  the season passes are all working well...
> 
> note: the tivo menu (displays channel 2-1) when the channel is 1st changed, but when you press "info" the correct info is shown... only somethings the metadata is missing all together.... but still shows up in the guide....
> 
> tivo must be sorting thing out?...
> 
> anyone know how to enter the " - " on the tivo remote? or is it just not supported?


The "-" input is the advance button. My remote code is 10090B. It might be a little faster than 10090A.


----------



## cia_viewer

I do not know where to take this question:
I have used TiVo Desktop 2.6.1 to copy one of several programs from my HD-TiVo to my WinXP PC.

I have downloaded MPEG_Streamclip_1.2 with QuickTimeAlt181
as well as TyTool10r4

I also have Roxio Creator LE...

I am lost in this 'tower of babel'! I am out of my league with video files.

The programs are on my PC as *.tivo files. I want to put them on DVDs in a usable form for later viewing on my DVD Player (Sony SONDVPNS725P).

Help, Please!


----------



## classicsat

If they are SD programs, use DirectShowDump to decrypt them, then run them through TyTools (make key files, cut files, then process to VOBs), then bur VOBs to DVD with Roxio (I do the same, but from a Series 2, and use Nero instead of Roxio).


----------



## bgiannes

larkor said:


> The "-" input is the advance button. My remote code is 10090B. It might be a little faster than 10090A.


mmm... but i'm using the advance button for 30sec skip... can it do both?


----------



## Shawn95GT

bgiannes said:


> mmm... but i'm using the advance button for 30sec skip... can it do both?


yup!

Get a GLO remote if you want the graphic . All it is is the (-) mark above the button.

detailed pic here:
http://dynamic.tivo.com/resources/images/series3/Series3HD_remote_on_wht_rgb.jpg

I could swear my THD remote had the graphic too but I use a GLO for it right now - I'll have to see if I can find the THD's remote!


----------



## tkoyn

TivoJerry (or other Tivo insiders), is there any possibility that the series 2 software can support both cable on the RF in and OTA converter box on RCA inputs at the same time? There are digital OTA channels in my area not on my cable. And some may prefer to get a letterbox presentation from their converter over a full screen presentation by their cable company.


----------



## Puppy76

Yeah, that would be nifty for a variety of reasons, but I'm not holding my breath. Should be possible though, as it can already support antenna + satellite, apparently.


----------



## wmcbrine

tkoyn said:


> TivoJerry (or other Tivo insiders), is there any possibility that the series 2 software can support both cable on the RF in and OTA converter box on RCA inputs at the same time?


I want it the other way around, just because I'd use the cable channels more, so I'd want them to have the better PQ. But, yeah. I was very disappointed to see this specifically excluded from 9.3.1.



> _There are digital OTA channels in my area not on my cable._


Same here.


----------



## Doghof

For all you toshiba people - this works. Got the update after requesting it on the site. i hooked up a box they recommended with an IR cable and reset the system with only the antenna as my source! Hurray and thank you TiVo Jerry and all you hardworking programmers! Knowing that you support your product means you have a loyal customer for life!


----------



## ronniejay

Doghof said:


> For all you toshiba people - this works. Got the update after requesting it on the site. i hooked up a box they recommended with an IR cable and reset the system with only the antenna as my source! Hurray and thank you TiVo Jerry and all you hardworking programmers! Knowing that you support your product means you have a loyal customer for life!


Doghof, Please give us your toshiba model, the box you chose, where you got the ir cable, the ir code set you use, and anything else.

I have 2 tosh units I got basically for free and they have become a part of our tv life. I think ir cables came with them, if I can only find them. I feed one tosh unit into my 52 inch tosh hd rear proj monitor. I nw use a voom rcvr for ota hd feed. I have no cable. I bought a sammy dtb-h260f hd rcvr from Circuit City yesterday, since the voom re-boots on the cbs main sub-channel here in Houston. Will hook it up tomorrow.

The 9.3.1 was loaded to my units without asking. Is there a cook book posting with all the steps?


----------



## classicsat

Since you have 9,3,1, all you do is set up like the OTA box is a cable box, with RF from the antenna to the box RF in, A/V from the box to the TiVo A/V in, IR blaster from the TiVo to the cable box IR sensor.
Repeat guided setup and chose antenna with box.


----------



## hardly

ronniejay said:


> . . . The 9.3.1 was loaded to my units without asking. Is there a cook book posting with all the steps?


What classicsat said.

I hate crossposting, you may want to look at my post at:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6651320#post6651320


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## Terbear

Help! I've been waiting for v9.3.1 software and now have it. I have a Series 2 DT model with a Zenith DTT-901 Converter. When I go to guided setup I DO NOT have the new option "Antenna with Box" available! 
I only have OTA channels, recent change over from cable. I have a TiVo HD and that works great 

I really want to get this Series 2 DT working with OTA. I recognize that I will only be able to use a single tuner and thats fine. I just want to get my TiVo back up an working.

-Terry


----------



## pcbrew

Terbear said:


> I really want to get this Series 2 DT working with OTA. I recognize that I will only be able to use a single tuner and thats fine. I just want to get my TiVo back up an working.


The S2DT does not support with this option since it was never intended to be used with OTA - link to TiVoJerry's post: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6554619#post6554619

I think the only thing you can do with the S2DT is set it up as if you have Dish service (tell it you have an LG box for this converter). Dish should have guide data for the locals at the right channel, but you won't be able to get guide data for the sub-channels. Just deselect all but the locals in the "Channels I receive" menu.
BTW, you may have an issue with this box. It is the same as the Insigna box BestBuy sells and I found that when the TiVo tries to change the channel to a channel you are already on and only send the main channel # as it does with this workaround, the next sub-channel gets selected. For example, tuning from 4.1 to 5.1, TiVo send 5 but the box tunes to the first sub-ch (5.1). If the next program to be recorded is also on 5.1, TiVo will try to tune the channel anyway since the box may have been tuned to another channel separately. So, it send 5 again but the box will pick the next channel that starts with a 5; i.e., 5.2 if you have more sub-channels or could even get to 5x.1 if you have channel in the 50's. I was not able to find a workaround to the box's tuning behavior when the TiVo only sends the main channel as it does with the workaround. So, right now I use an Apex DT250 box with my S2DT.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6521697#post6521697

In fact, this update is not too useful for me because I want to use a setup with cable plus the converter in order to get the best quality input for local channels (the analog conversion of OTA is much better quality than the analog cable version). Jerry said in the post I linked to that this will not be supported so I'll probably pick up DT250's for some of my other S2 units.


----------



## cliffzig

TiVoJerry said:


> If you are a satellite + antenna user, you *will *be able to control two boxes simultaneously. That's why the S2's IR cable comes with two emitters.


Ok, I am a sat + antenna user. Until now, I have been using Dish on one tuner using the IR cable, and RF OTA antenna on the second tuner (cable workaround for locals).

What do I need to do to get Dish + OTA w/ DC box working? Software allows for Satellite only, Cable only, or both.


----------



## David_NC

cliffzig said:


> Ok, I am a sat + antenna user. Until now, I have been using Dish on one tuner using the IR cable, and RF OTA antenna on the second tuner (cable workaround for locals).
> 
> What do I need to do to get Dish + OTA w/ DC box working? Software allows for Satellite only, Cable only, or both.


There should be an antenna + satellite option. If you have the dual-tuner model, the software will not support antenna or digital converter box.


----------



## TiVoJerry

cliffzig said:


> Ok, I am a sat + antenna user. Until now, I have been using Dish on one tuner using the IR cable, and RF OTA antenna on the second tuner (cable workaround for locals).
> 
> What do I need to do to get Dish + OTA w/ DC box working? Software allows for Satellite only, Cable only, or both.


If you have the S2 DT (Dual tuner, prefix 649) you will not be able to set up for antenna. You indicate that you are currently set up for antenna, so I'm guessing you do NOT have this model.

Make sure you have 9.3.1 software. If you have been connecting regularly but not yet received it, the priority list is available at tivo.com/priority.


----------



## Adam1115

TiVoJerry said:


> If you have the S2 DT (Dual tuner, prefix 649) you will not be able to set up for antenna. You indicate that you are currently set up for antenna, so I'm guessing you do NOT have this model.
> 
> Make sure you have 9.3.1 software. If you have been connecting regularly but not yet received it, the priority list is available at tivo.com/priority.


I think what he's asking is, can a single tuner series 2 support BOTH satellite with a box and OTA with a box? (One going to coax and one going to S-Video)?

It would make sense that this would be an option since the S2 can do both a cable box and a sat box currently assuming the IR codes don't interfere.


----------



## CuriousMark

Adam1115 said:


> I think what he's asking is, can a single tuner series 2 support BOTH satellite with a box and OTA with a box? (One going to coax and one going to S-Video)?
> 
> It would make sense that this would be an option since the S2 can do both a cable box and a sat box currently assuming the IR codes don't interfere.


Yes, the single tuner can do it, but the dual tuner that cliffzig has will not. He was using an unofficial workaround to get OTA by tricking the box into thinking it is getting cable. That may not work here, since the converter boxes are not considered cable boxes. However, it might be interesting for him to try the same workaround but to just use the converter box IR codes instead of cable box IR codes.


----------



## aisler

Okay, I have the Series 2 and the Toshiba converter and though I get all the DTV channels via the setup, I have 2 main issues

1. The way that the Tivo chnges channels on the converter via the IR blaster. It seems to put in the numbers of the chanel rather than using an up or down channel function. So what happens is there is a huge delay and flicker of the video when using the tivo remote vs using the OEM remote for the converter. Can this be changed?

2. Can't seem to watch another channel while recording. If i turn the Tivo off (as i would have prior to using the converter) and change channels on the converter, the channels being switched 2 gets recorded. This can not be the final solution. I must not be doing something right.


Can someone please shed some light on this. My wife is pissed that yeterdays Oprah got overwritten mid way through by the Simpsons. Thanks.


----------



## kb7oeb

cliffzig said:


> Ok, I am a sat + antenna user. Until now, I have been using Dish on one tuner using the IR cable, and RF OTA antenna on the second tuner (cable workaround for locals).
> 
> What do I need to do to get Dish + OTA w/ DC box working? Software allows for Satellite only, Cable only, or both.


Replace you dish box with an 811, it has an OTA tuner built in and should be dirt cheap on ebay since they no longer work for satellite HD. (This assumes dish carries your locals, and tivo has them on the dish lineup)


----------



## TiVoJerry

aisler said:


> Okay, I have the Series 2 and the Toshiba converter and though I get all the DTV channels via the setup, I have 2 main issues
> 
> 1. The way that the Tivo chnges channels on the converter via the IR blaster. It seems to put in the numbers of the chanel rather than using an up or down channel function. So what happens is there is a huge delay and flicker of the video when using the tivo remote vs using the OEM remote for the converter. Can this be changed?
> 
> 2. Can't seem to watch another channel while recording. If i turn the Tivo off (as i would have prior to using the converter) and change channels on the converter, the channels being switched 2 gets recorded. This can not be the final solution. I must not be doing something right.
> 
> Can someone please shed some light on this. My wife is pissed that yeterdays Oprah got overwritten mid way through by the Simpsons. Thanks.


1> That is the way our channel changing for converter boxes has always worked since the DVR has no way of knowing for certain what channel the converter is on at any given moment. This method reduces the number of missed recordings in the event that the converter ends up on the wrong channel for any reason.

2> This is also normal. Now that you require a converter box to decode the signal, it must always be left on and will only output one channel at a time. Previously, you were using a passthrough capability only available when the DVR is tuning analog channels using the RF input and the internal tuner. Sorry to say it but this capability does not exist in the digital realm for the Series2 platforms. To view and/or record two digital channels at the same time, you would need to have a dual tuner HD DVR.


----------



## pcbrew

aisler said:


> 1. The way that the Tivo chnges channels on the converter via the IR blaster. It seems to put in the numbers of the chanel rather than using an up or down channel function. So what happens is there is a huge delay and flicker of the video when using the tivo remote vs using the OEM remote for the converter. Can this be changed?


No - TiVo has no way of knowing what channel the converter is tuned to so the only way to know it's tuning the right channel is to enter the number. 


aisler said:


> 2. Can't seem to watch another channel while recording. If i turn the Tivo off (as i would have prior to using the converter) and change channels on the converter, the channels being switched 2 gets recorded. This can not be the final solution. I must not be doing something right.


It's working properly. You only have the converter tuner now, so the only way to watch another channel is to use another tuner. If you were using analog OTA before, you could never watch one live channel while recording another and this is nothing different. To do what you want, you need to get another converter box to watch one channel while you record another. You will also need to buy a different brand of converter so the IR signal doesn't mess with the box the TiVo is controlling and vice-versa.


----------



## ronniejay

aisler said:


> Okay, I have the Series 2 and the Toshiba converter and though I get all the DTV channels via the setup, I have 2 main issues
> 
> 1. The way that the Tivo chnges channels on the converter via the IR blaster. It seems to put in the numbers of the chanel rather than using an up or down channel function. So what happens is there is a huge delay and flicker of the video when using the tivo remote vs using the OEM remote for the converter. Can this be changed?
> 
> 2. Can't seem to watch another channel while recording. If i turn the Tivo off (as i would have prior to using the converter) and change channels on the converter, the channels being switched 2 gets recorded. This can not be the final solution. I must not be doing something right.
> 
> Can someone please shed some light on this. My wife is pissed that yeterdays Oprah got overwritten mid way through by the Simpsons. Thanks.


Oprah and the Simpsons ... you guys MUST be a mixed couple - republican AND democratic! DOAH!!!


----------



## cliffzig

TiVoJerry said:


> If you have the S2 DT (Dual tuner, prefix 649) you will not be able to set up for antenna. You indicate that you are currently set up for antenna, so I'm guessing you do NOT have this model.
> 
> Make sure you have 9.3.1 software. If you have been connecting regularly but not yet received it, the priority list is available at tivo.com/priority.


i DO have a 649 series. and it DOES have 9.3.1 software.
Like I said, in the past I was tricking it out by selecting a cable lineup, and hooking up RF antenna. The local channels matched those of the cable lineup. As I have read, this is a common technique.

I was hoping to use Dish satellite on tuner 1, and antenna w/ box on tuner 2. As it stands, the DT will not allow this. I don't know if I will be able to use the cable lineup trick after hooking up a D/A converter box.

I would have to be able to set up IR codes for TWO boxes. Will it even allow for this?

Anyone else in my boat?


----------



## classicsat

9.3.1 or not, a Series DT cannot be set up for antenna at all, nor for more than one box, nor will likely ever get antenna support, nor two box support. What you want is an older single tuner Series 2, to replace the DT or use along side it for antenna, or a TiVo HD for antenna.


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## restart88

classicsat said:


> 9.3.1 or not, a Series DT cannot be set up for antenna at all, nor for more than one box, nor will likely ever get antenna support, nor two box support. What you want is an older single tuner Series 2, to replace the DT or use along side it for antenna, or a TiVo HD for antenna.


It cannot be set up for sub channels via 9.3.1. That is true! If you use a modulator to give Tivo a channel 3/ 4 input it does work and has been working just fine for some of us. In fact, I have had no problems with it and use it to record my broadcast programs. I actually still have issues with my 540 box with channel changing. It has both DBS & an OTA converter, just as a disclosure.

The DT work-around will work until it doesn't, I guess. But it DOES work. I don't know why people keep saying it doesn't which is only partly true. But I'm pretty sure you meant to say it will never get subchannels. I won't argue that point because that discussion is above my pay grade.


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## TiVoJerry

We got a DTVPal in and testing shows that we will not be able to support it. Channel changing protocol on all other models we've tested relies on using a delimiter (the dash/dot). Some models will even work if you just enter numbers with no delimiter, but will still work normally when the delimiter is sent. Unfortunately, this model specifically requires entering leading zeroes when you want to go to a subchannel and does not have a delimeter whatsoever.

I quote from the manual:
"To change to a sub-channel, enter "0" before entering the channel number. For example, to change to channel 9-2, enter "0092" on the NUMBER PAD."

We would've liked to have had better news since this seemed to be a model that some of you were interested in.


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## fivedvrs

Thanks to TivoJerry and the rest of the crew at Tivo for this update for the Series 2. I've been enjoying using it with my Insignia box.

Sorry to hear that about the DTVPal, but I'm sure I can find a use for mine elsewhere, just not with my Tivo.

Don


----------



## leswar

Can TiVo and the 9.3.1 sw handle this situation:
my basic Comcast cable tv to rf input ( for my cable channels),
and a DTA converter box hooked to the a/v inputs( for all those sub-channels)? also program guides for this?


----------



## pcbrew

leswar said:


> Can TiVo and the 9.3.1 sw handle this situation:
> my basic Comcast cable tv to rf input ( for my cable channels),
> and a DTA converter box hooked to the a/v inputs( for all those sub-channels)? also program guides for this?


That's what I would like as well, but TiVoJerry says it will not be supported 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6554619#post6554619


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## classicsat

No. The only time two sources on a Single tuner TiVo are supported, is when one is satellite (by default with box). Yes, it will support two boxes.


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## snuffy33

My thanks as well to TivoJerry and the Tivo crew for the 9.3.1 update and all the good info here. My two Series 2's are cruising along now OTA. Take care all.


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## restart88

I'm still having an issue with my 540, which is hooked up to a Hughes D* box and a Zenith converter. When I switch from sat to OTA converter it keeps wanting to go to channel 3 no matter what channel I selected. Then, if I hit the channel changer on the Tivo remote it goes to the channel I was originally trying to reach.

Sometimes, it will also do that when manually changing between converter channels via the Tivo remote and other times not.

Man I hate to bring this up but does it sound like I should re-run the setup? Or is this a known software issue?

So as it turns out looks like I am fortunate to have moved most of my OTA Season Passes over to the unsupported DT work-around.


----------



## Jim5506

I really hate to disagree with CLassicsat and TiVoJerry, but the 649 CAN be used for OTA if you input a cable system that has the right channels available, because many of the cable channels are the same frequencies as the OTA channels except the numbers are different.

It really screws with your channel listing (mostly they are wrong) but it is possible, especially if your cable company does not move very many channels to different channel numbers.

My TiVo 240 died about 6 months ago and since TiVo does not make the Series 2 single tuner any more, Best Buy replaced it with a Series 2 DT(640). I am using it with Dish Network with locals, but for a while I had it set up to receive locals OTA. It was a mess but it worked.


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## classicsat

I am not saying it cannot be used for antenna (either with or without box), antenna is just not supported.


----------



## Puppy76

Jim5506 said:


> I really hate to disagree with CLassicsat and TiVoJerry, but the 649 CAN be used for OTA if you input a cable system that has the right channels available, because many of the cable channels are the same frequencies as the OTA channels except the numbers are different.
> 
> It really screws with your channel listing (mostly they are wrong) but it is possible, especially if your cable company does not move very many channels to different channel numbers.
> 
> My TiVo 240 died about 6 months ago and since TiVo does not make the Series 2 single tuner any more, Best Buy replaced it with a Series 2 DT(640). I am using it with Dish Network with locals, but for a while I had it set up to receive locals OTA. It was a mess but it worked.


That doesn't exactly seem fair, since for a lot of people a dual tuner S2 would be worthless-not a replacement for an earlier model (though for others it would be an upgrade...)


----------



## bicker

There really isn't any way of achieving fairness if the item isn't available to be acquired any longer -- the closest you can get is to provide a replacement that is as close in _objective _value as possible, even if it isn't close in _subjective _value. Fairness means objectivity.


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## kb7oeb

For antenna users the replacement should be a TivoHD


----------



## TiVoJerry

Puppy76 said:


> That doesn't exactly seem fair, since for a lot of people a dual tuner S2 would be worthless-not a replacement for an earlier model (though for others it would be an upgrade...)


Customers have never been able to use the S2DT _officially _to tune antenna stations, whether they be digital or analog. We've had to keep this in mind when replacing a DVR for these customers for some time now and will continue to do so. We still currently have single tuner stock for replacement.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

TiVoJerry said:


> Customers have never been able to use the S2DT _officially _to tune antenna stations, whether they be digital or analog. We've had to keep this in mind when replacing a DVR for these customers for some time now and will continue to do so. We still currently have single tuner stock for replacement.


can I trade you a 240 for a 649 so you don't run out of single tuners?


----------



## Adam1115

TiVoJerry said:


> Customers have never been able to use the S2DT _officially _to tune antenna stations, whether they be digital or analog. We've had to keep this in mind when replacing a DVR for these customers for some time now and will continue to do so. We still currently have single tuner stock for replacement.


But it IS a good point.

I understand why tivo disabled OTA to meet the mandate. But why wouldn't they allow hooking up a OTA tuner to a DT or a newer single tuner? Isn't the code already going to be present?

Why go out of your way to not allow, what would it hurt to allow the newer boxes to receive OTA via a box...? I had to go on ebay to find a single tuner box to do OTA, people would be pretty thankful that TiVo returned to supporting OTA...


----------



## TiVoJerry

Adam1115 said:


> But it IS a good point.
> 
> I understand why tivo disabled OTA to meet the mandate. But why wouldn't they allow hooking up a OTA tuner to a DT or a newer single tuner? Isn't the code already going to be present?
> 
> Why go out of your way to not allow, what would it hurt to allow the newer boxes to receive OTA via a box...? I had to go on ebay to find a single tuner box to do OTA, people would be pretty thankful that TiVo returned to supporting OTA...


For starters, we'd have to write the code to allow setting up for digital OTA while still excluding analog.

More importantly, this model was sold with OTA support removed for the mandate. Modifying it to officially support antenna in any way puts us in a precarious position with the FCC.


----------



## Adam1115

TiVoJerry said:


> For starters, we'd have to write the code to allow setting up for digital OTA while still excluding analog.
> 
> More importantly, this model was sold with OTA support removed for the mandate. Modifying it to officially support antenna in any way puts us in a precarious position with the FCC.


But wouldn't you be modifying it to support a box that supports OTA? It wouldn't be supporting antenna at all....?

I would think it would be the same as say, a Dish Network receiver with built in OTA tuners....


----------



## TiVoJerry

The point is that it's not the same. The mandate required any box built after a specific date that allows tuning of antenna channels to have a built-in digital tuner.


----------



## Adam1115

Thank you for clarifying...


----------



## cia_viewer

TiVoJerry said:


> For starters, we'd have to write the code to allow setting up for digital OTA while still excluding analog.
> 
> More importantly, this model was sold with OTA support removed for the mandate. Modifying it to officially support antenna in any way puts us in a precarious position with the FCC.


??? The FCC does not want you to support OTA???

Oh well, there are many things I do not understand.


----------



## pcbrew

cia_viewer said:


> ??? The FCC does not want you to support OTA???
> 
> Oh well, there are many things I do not understand.


Not *analog* OTA, that's going away in Feb 2009 and the FCC did not want anybody selling TV's or other HW that supported *only* analog OTA after a certain date (Mar 1, 2007). Anything that has an analog TV tuner also had to have an ATSC (digital tuner).


----------



## control-z

Just got my Tivax STB-T9 in the mail today. Little guy, neat unit.

Got it up and running standalone no problem, then ran the guided setup on my S2 Tivo again. Whole thing took less than an hour, including wiring and everything. Very easy and smooth. You do need to tell it manually what channels you get though, it doesn't interrogate the digital tuner box.

Now I have really nice (as nice as NTSC gets) picture on 20 or so digital channels. One wants to display with black bars on all sides, all other channels are fine.

Oh, and you have to delete and redo your season passes, all the old season passes aren't on the "29-1" number format that digital channels use.


----------



## mgrady

So I read thru all this thread tonight, because I called TiVo today. 

I have an S1 002, a S2DT-649 and a S2-590. I am OTA and Dish.

When the yellow and blue store had the S2DT on sale, I got one. Then - I discovered it did not support OTA. So - I gave it to my daughter, who has cable. Lemons to lemonade. It was a perfect gift. 

My S2 590 (humax) died a few months ago, it was OTA + dish, so I just rewired all my coax, used IR transmitters and use just the one S1 002 with OTA and dish. Good enough. It's a lifetime box and my wife watches TV mostly OTA, so that's good enough. I'll zone out on "How it's made" in the den.

Of course, my credit card still has the dead S2 590 on it, and I call to have it removed. TiVo rep says 'no can do'. 

1 year service agreement with a cancellation penalty. So it goes. I grit my teeth and pay. At least it wasn't a lifetime box.

Now, I'm within two months of the expiration of the 1 year term, so I call today. Please remove the unit labeled 'dead TiVo'. Please and thank you.

Rep says, ohhh, ahhh, you have been a good sub since the dawn of time. Rather than stop the sub, let me get you a S2DT for (a good price). I reply, but I'm Sat and OTA, DT won't work for me...

Rep says, oh yes, this works fine. No worries. I reply: can I talk thru this with a super? SUPERVISOR: S2DT and OTA are fine now. No worries. We'll have that on the truck to you yet tonight Mr. Grady, and we are happy to serve you!

So, I get one. 

Then tonight I read this thread, and conclude I'm buying another 'gift' TiVo that I won't be able to use. (I know I have 30 days to send it back..)

OR, are the shipping S2 DT's some model other than prefix 649? 

As a side note, just thinking out loud... I do have an APEX DT250, so maybe I should just put some effort into fixing the S2-590 and send back the S2 DT that I bought today?

'dazed and confused' Mark, TiVo sub since day 1 (or 2).


----------



## TiVoJerry

mgrady said:


> So I read thru all this thread tonight, because I called TiVo today.
> 
> I have an S1 002, a S2DT-649 and a S2-590. I am OTA and Dish.
> <snip>
> Now, I'm within two months of the expiration of the 1 year term, so I call today. Please remove the unit labeled 'dead TiVo'. Please and thank you.
> 
> Rep says, ohhh, ahhh, you have been a good sub since the dawn of time. Rather than stop the sub, let me get you a S2DT for (a good price). I reply, but I'm Sat and OTA, DT won't work for me...
> 
> Rep says, oh yes, this works fine. No worries. I reply: can I talk thru this with a super? SUPERVISOR: S2DT and OTA are fine now. No worries. We'll have that on the truck to you yet tonight Mr. Grady, and we are happy to serve you!
> 
> So, I get one.
> <snip>
> 'dazed and confused' Mark, TiVo sub since day 1 (or 2).


Sorry to say that the rep and supe did not think things through very well. We only produce one standard definition dual tuner, the S2DT with the 649 prefix. If you'll send me a private message with your case number, I'll be happy to coach them on the error of their ways. I apologize for any confusion they have caused.


----------



## Puppy76

mgrady, you mentioned your Humax S2 died. What happened with it? Mine's been running since I think February of '05. I really like it, though I'd really like a Tivo HD XL


----------



## mgrady

Puppy76 said:


> mgrady, you mentioned your Humax S2 died. What happened with it? Mine's been running since I think February of '05. I really like it, though I'd really like a Tivo HD XL


It was setting vertically, (PS on top) got knocked over and the hard drive heads took a divot out of a platter. Oopsie. Resulted in a green screen of death. I should probably get a new drive and image from another unit. I just haven't looked down that path.

I may try an Apex STB at a co-worker's house and see if that does the job. Moving backwards/sideways is a better direction than where I'm headed now. February is right around the corner, so I better have a better plan than I have now.

My original (but hacked) S1 212 with 2 drives and turbocache card is still going, knock on wood. It will be a dark day when I have to put the lil' fella down next year.


----------



## mgrady

TiVoJerry said:


> Sorry to say that the rep and supe did not think things through very well.
> 
> [snip]


They meant well. Sent you a PM with the 411. You are awesome on this forum. ding-ding-ding all thumbs up for you.

Just an observation, but it does seem that OTA digital and Sat is a kind of a big hole in the product lineup. 
I was sort of holding out for something... something with HD and SAT.

I have Dish, but antique receivers, and their DVR is soooo way *not* better than TiVo. 
I have no interest in paying Dish for locals, and for DVR and so on and so forth.

mg


----------



## Puppy76

mgrady said:


> It was setting vertically, (PS on top) got knocked over and the hard drive heads took a divot out of a platter. Oopsie. Resulted in a green screen of death. I should probably get a new drive and image from another unit. I just haven't looked down that path.
> 
> I may try an Apex STB at a co-worker's house and see if that does the job. Moving backwards/sideways is a better direction than where I'm headed now. February is right around the corner, so I better have a better plan than I have now.
> 
> My original (but hacked) S1 212 with 2 drives and turbocache card is still going, knock on wood. It will be a dark day when I have to put the lil' fella down next year.


Oh wow, so even at it's age it wasn't really a hardware failure per se 

I know my 590 Tivo gets WAY more use than my two VCRs did, was cheaper than one of them (including service), and has lasted waaaaaaaay longer.


----------



## ronniejay

I filed for 2 DTV coupons on 9/5 and got a mail date of 9/19. They got here yesterday. Off to CIRCUIT CITY to use some gift cards I won to pick up 2 Zenith boxes for my tivo.


----------



## cia_viewer

ronniejay said:


> I filed for 2 DTV coupons on 9/5 and got a mail date of 9/19. They got here yesterday. Off to CIRCUIT CITY to use some gift cards I won to pick up 2 Zenith boxes for my tivo.


YES! My Zenith DTT901 works quite well. I wish I could exchange my Magnavox TB100MG9 for another Zenith DTT901.


----------



## Puppy76

What's wrong with your Magnavox? I'm got two of them, and they seem to work well. (Unless they had multiple models or something. Mine are from K-Mart.)


----------



## TiVoJerry

mgrady said:


> Just an observation, but it does seem that OTA digital and Sat is a kind of a big hole in the product lineup.
> I was sort of holding out for something... something with HD and SAT.
> 
> I have Dish, but antique receivers, and their DVR is soooo way *not* better than TiVo.
> I have no interest in paying Dish for locals, and for DVR and so on and so forth.
> 
> mg


Hence our excitement over the recent announcement that our partnership with DTV has taken an exciting turn.


----------



## Adam1115

TiVoJerry said:


> Hence our excitement over the recent announcement that our partnership with DTV has taken an exciting turn.


TiVoJerry, any way you can give us a teaser..? Will the new box be based on current DirecTV hardware? Or will this be a box designed by TiVo similar to the old DirecTiVo's?


----------



## TiVoJerry

Adam1115 said:


> TiVoJerry, any way you can give us a teaser..? Will the new box be based on current DirecTV hardware? Or will this be a box designed by TiVo similar to the old DirecTiVo's?


Being in CS, I don't really have any details to give. Even if I did, I'm sure I couldn't say anything. The marketing guys get to do all the teasing and pleasing.


----------



## cia_viewer

Puppy76 said:


> What's wrong with your Magnavox? I'm got two of them, and they seem to work well. (Unless they had multiple models or something. Mine are from K-Mart.)


My Magnavox TB100MG9 is from Sears 'ALL SALES FINAL'.
One of our more important stations we can receive in analog only because they are not 'broadcasting' their DTV signal from a tower.

By using the menu system of the Magnavox TB100MG9 one can get analog pass through. My simply holding a button down you can revert to digital TV.
To switch back to analog you MUST go through the same menu process AGAIN each time!

All CECBs touting ATP Analog Pass Through should work like our Zenith DTT901: Pressing a button on the remote simply switches back and forth between On (DTV) and Standby (Analog Pass Through).

That is what is wrong with my Magnavox TB100MG9 !


----------



## mgrady

mgrady said:


> {snip and paraphrase} had S2-590, busted, called TiVo, yada, yada, yada, and so on.


Just to wrap up my original post, I InstantCaked my S2-590 with a 500, hooked it up to an Apex DSTB and dish.

TiVoJerry is awesome, got a new software push, ran guided setup and it's all good.

Still not sure how to tune a sub channel from the remote (like 22-2), but it works from the guide, and it records OTA awesome.

I'm moving my old S1 to my office where I have cable, sort of putting it out to pasture...

Mark


----------



## TiVoJedi

For some reason the TiVo DTV2009 HDTiVo offer I had weeks ago now shows I am 'in the clear' and that I have an HDTiVo. I don't have an HD TiVo! I didn't take the offer weeks ago when it showed for my TSN. My S1 Phillips actually died last night. I was debating replacing the drive or actually taking the offer, but now I can't take the offer.  
Although the HDTiVo doesn't work with satellite I have been reconsidering accepting the offer.


----------



## classicsat

TiVoJerry said:


> Hence our excitement over the recent announcement that our partnership with DTV has taken an exciting turn.


It does nothing for non DirecTV (or potenetial non DirecTV) subscribers that for whatever reason cannot or will not get cable/cablecards or DirecTV. Meaning, we need an HD TiVo that records from an HD STB from our provider.

Note I am in Canada, where DirecTV is not a (legal anyways) option.


----------



## TiVoJerry

mgrady said:


> Still not sure how to tune a sub channel from the remote (like 22-2), but it works from the guide, and it records OTA awesome.
> 
> Mark


The Advance button (->|) above the number 3 works as the delimiter (dash/dot).



TiVoJedi said:


> For some reason the TiVo DTV2009 HDTiVo offer I had weeks ago now shows I am 'in the clear' and that I have an HDTiVo. I don't have an HD TiVo! I didn't take the offer weeks ago when it showed for my TSN. My S1 Phillips actually died last night. I was debating replacing the drive or actually taking the offer, but now I can't take the offer.
> Although the HDTiVo doesn't work with satellite I have been reconsidering accepting the offer.


I haven't checked to see if we've expired this yet. You should call in to find out what youre options are at this point.


----------



## ronniejay

Sorry if already covered. I hooked up my Zenith DTT901 for a test. Did not do the guided setup, just viewing and manual recording, off of ch 3 of my tivo. The auto shut off appears to be a problem, especially after the tivo controls it. You must use "any button" for a max of 4 hrs, or it will power off. Obvious problem if you are away and want tivo to record something. Do you have to schedule a "dummy" 5 min recording every 4 hours to keep it alive?

... did what I should have done BEFORE posting, I did a search on here and one post mentioned "turning auto off "off". Sure enough, one choice on the zenith menu is auto off = "off". Fixed my problem.


----------



## gastrof

Guys?

Instead of me wading thru 800 posts, is there a particular post I could look for to know what IR codes a series 1 would already know that'd let it control a digital converter box? (Trying to help someone with a setup involving the "I have satellite with OTA tuner" fake.)


----------



## ronniejay

gastrof said:


> Guys?
> 
> Instead of me wading thru 800 posts, is there a particular post I could look for to know what IR codes a series 1 would already know that'd let it control a digital converter box? (Trying to help someone with a setup involving the "I have satellite with OTA tuner" fake.)


This thread is all about series 2. This post listed all the series 2 codes for converter boxes supported: (hope this is useful)

///////////////

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Ontario Canada.
Posts: 14,860 Since you have 9,3,1, all you do is set up like the OTA box is a cable box, with RF from the antenna to the box RF in, A/V from the box to the TiVo A/V in, IR blaster from the TiVo to the cable box IR sensor.
Repeat guided setup and chose antenna with box.
__________________
Series 2 180 Hr - Series 2 234 Hr Lifetime.
Window XP and Ubuntu Linux on my PCs. 
Access DTA1010D 10094
Apex DT250 10098
Artec T3A Pro 10100
Cadence DTVC9 10097
Channel Master CM-7000 10092
Coship N9988T 10095
Digital Stream DTX9000/DTX9950 UNSUPPORTED
G.E. 22729 10102
Insignia NS-DXA1 10090
Lasonic LTA-260 10091
Magnavox TB100MW9 10086
Microgem MGMG2000 10096
Motorola DSR-550 UNSUPPORTED
Philco TB100HH9 10101
RCA DTA800 10087
Sansonic FT-300A 10091
Tivax STB-T9 10103
Venturer STB7766G 10093
Winegard RC-DT09 10099
Zenith DTT900/DTT901 10090 
///////////////////////////


----------



## classicsat

I think the RCA and LG boxes will work with a satellite lineup.


----------



## fallingwater

gastrof said:


> Guys?
> 
> Instead of me wading thru 800 posts, is there a particular post I could look for to know what IR codes a series 1 would already know that'd let it control a digital converter box? (Trying to help someone with a setup involving the "I have satellite with OTA tuner" fake.)


I have no idea if this post from 8-24-2003 in the Help Center provides the info you're seeking but it's worth looking at:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128743


----------



## gastrof

fallingwater said:


> I have no idea if this post from 8-24-2003 in the Help Center provides the info you're seeking but it's worth looking at:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128743


I've briefly scanned thru it, but it doesn't seem to include any digital converter boxes from what I can see.

Oh well...


----------



## gastrof

ronniejay said:


> This thread is all about series 2. This post listed all the series 2 codes for converter boxes supported: (hope this is useful)...


Thanks.

I figured maybe the Series 1s would have been updated over the years to control the same cable boxes the Series 2s do.

Let's hope so, for both his sake and mine. (I'll be wanting to try this too. *grin*)


----------



## DougF

gastrof said:


> Guys?
> 
> Instead of me wading thru 800 posts, is there a particular post I could look for to know what IR codes a series 1 would already know that'd let it control a digital converter box? (Trying to help someone with a setup involving the "I have satellite with OTA tuner" fake.)


I used the Hitachi DirecTV code to control the Radio Shack converter box.


----------



## MikeRivers

cia_viewer said:


> YES! My Zenith DTT901 works quite well. I wish I could exchange my Magnavox TB100MG9 for another Zenith DTT901.


Pardon the possibly naive question, but is your DTT901 on the list of supported boxes for your TiVo now? Or are you running it as "same as" something else?

I have a Series 1 TiVo (Sony DVR-2000) and no subscription. I've been recording one channel at a shot using an Insignia DTV converter (same as the Zenith DTT900) and was about to investigate whether I could use the TiVo to change channels on it so I could program multi-channel recordings. I know how to make an "IR Blaster" but the trick is to find the right codes.

There's a long list of tuner boxes, but since the TiVo hasn't been "legit" with a subscription since early this year, it doesn't know about my converter. I thought maybe a Zenith unit would be a good place to start, but when I select that from the setup list, it just gives me a phone number and tells me to call TiVo. Since I don't have a subscription, I don't expect that will get me anywhere.

Any shortcuts? Or do I just have to start from the top and test them all until I find one that works enough to use?


----------



## MikeRivers

To answer my own question, yes, it does work with the LG code set, and there aren't many choices either, just fast, medium, and slow. I have mine working with fast and it still takes several seconds to change channels, but it works. I had thought of LG shortly after I got back from Radio Shack with an IR diode, made up the cable, and found that none of the Zenith codes worked. I knew it was an LG product and should have looked there first.

What I discovered is that it sends a preceding zero for single digit channels, and that can confuse the DTV converter because the sub-channel isn't specified. On the DTV remote, if I want, for example, the top level channel of the Channel 4 stack (Channel 4-1 in DTV language) I'd just hit the 4 button. It seems to be happy enough with 04 coming from the TiVo, but when you get into the two-digit channels, it interprets 26 as 2-6 and there ain't none, so it stays where it is.

The trick is to enter 261, and that sends it to 26-1. In fact, this answered another question for me, that yes, it's possible to record any of the channels. If I want to record a program on 26-4, I enter that as Channel 264. Even though TiVo doesn't know what's on that channel, it still accepts it in the manual recording program.

Pretty cool, actually.


----------



## cia_viewer

MikeRivers said:


> Pardon the possibly naive question, but is your DTT901 on the list of supported boxes for your TiVo now? Or are you running it as "same as" something else?
> 
> I have a Series 1 TiVo (Sony DVR-2000) and no subscription. I've been recording one channel at a shot using an Insignia DTV converter (same as the Zenith DTT900) and was about to investigate whether I could use the TiVo to change channels on it so I could program multi-channel recordings. I know how to make an "IR Blaster" but the trick is to find the right codes.
> 
> There's a long list of tuner boxes, but since the TiVo hasn't been "legit" with a subscription since early this year, it doesn't know about my converter. I thought maybe a Zenith unit would be a good place to start, but when I select that from the setup list, it just gives me a phone number and tells me to call TiVo. Since I don't have a subscription, I don't expect that will get me anywhere.
> 
> Any shortcuts? Or do I just have to start from the top and test them all until I find one that works enough to use?


My DTT901 might be treated as same as DTT900 because TiVo is not supporting the analog pass through feature of DTT901. My DTT901 is powered on 24/7 and controlled by my S2 TiVo via the IR Blaster.

This is accomplished with updated software.

The (hyphen/dot) delimiter for DTV sub-channels is accomplished by the tiny [->|] button at the right edge of the remote 3/8 inch below the fast forward [>>] button and 5/8 inch above the [3] button.


----------



## herfmonster

I didn't see this answered here after 28 pages of thread, but can my Toshiba SD-H400 control a Tivax STB-T9 via the serial port?


----------



## classicsat

Currently only IR is supported for the DTA converters.


----------



## herfmonster

Any idea on weather or not that will be implemented? I seem to recall some people missing a season pass here or there because of of an IR blaster failure or mishap. Wouldn't the serial port be a more reliable control method?

Currently I am deciding between a serial port channel changing capability (potentially)(for reliability, which I prefer) and S-Video output (for better picture)(It would be nice to have both)

I am basically biding my time until I can get my Nero LiquidTV / TiVo PC box built


----------



## magnus

Any details on the features? Will D* allow for the Tivo premium features on these boxes or are they going to be watered down like before?



TiVoJerry said:


> Hence our excitement over the recent announcement that our partnership with DTV has taken an exciting turn.


----------



## David_NC

herfmonster said:


> I didn't see this answered here after 28 pages of thread, but can my Toshiba SD-H400 control a Tivax STB-T9 via the serial port?


Does the STB-T9 even have the capability of being controlled by the serial port? If the manufacturer didn't set it up for serial control, its doubtful Tivo would take the trouble to modify their software to use a third-party serial control hack.


----------



## gastrof

herfmonster said:


> Any idea on weather or not that will be implemented? I seem to recall some people missing a season pass here or there because of of an IR blaster failure or mishap. Wouldn't the serial port be a more reliable control method?
> 
> Currently I am deciding between a serial port channel changing capability (potentially)(for reliability, which I prefer) and S-Video output (for better picture)(It would be nice to have both)
> 
> I am basically biding my time until I can get my Nero LiquidTV / TiVo PC box built


Do the digital converter boxes even HAVE serial ports on them? My two (different brands) sure don't.

Are TiVos being made to work with digital OTA tuners of all kinds, or just the "little" boxes meant to sort of rescue old TVs? The ones the government coupon program would apply to?


----------



## herfmonster

The Tivax STB-T9 does have a serial port on back. So far I have only found two OTA converter boxes that do. I haven't researched all the approved boxes yet.

Also... good question about non coupon boxes...I'd like to hear the answer to that one as well.


----------



## TiVoJerry

1> magnus, i'm not in a position to answer your question. It also doesn't fit the discussion of this thread.

2> We are not working on getting serial control to work with OTA boxes.

3> Our main focus has only been on the models covered by a coupon. Now that the software is available to the public, we won't be proactively purchasing and testing models. Instead, it falls to CS (usually me) to work with individuals to capture IR and test before adding new codes. This process takes a bit longer and we will only focus on models currently for sale that are primarily intended for use as an OTA digital converter.


----------



## gastrof

For the moment I've found a nearly tolerable way to handle a Series 1 and a converter box. (Series 1s aren't being updated to control them.)

I went thru Guided Setup all over again, telling the TiVo it'd be working with Dish Network and my local cable company's extended basic feed.

Satellite box thru the A/V inputs, cable thru the RF.

Thing is, there's no satellite box, just a Dish-made converter box.

After setup I deleted (unchecked) all the cable/satellite type channels from the list, and now all it has is my OTAs and my cable channels.

The Dish box has its own event timer (to work with old analog recorders and keep them running), so I can set both boxes to record a show off the OTA feed, and the TiVo gets the OTA digital channel when it records. 

The one downside is that I'm not using an IR blaster to control the converter box's channel changes (which I could do since it responds to the Dish satellite IR codes), and so the TiVo has no control at all of the converter box. It's a little annoying to have to reach for the other remote when I want to watch one of the OTAs thru the converter. (When I'm channel surfing on the TiVo, no matter what OTA channel I hit it's always the same channel...whatever one the converter is actually tuned to.  )

I may set things up with an IR blaster, and see how it goes. (I hate the idea of the IR blaster "mis-firing" and ruining a recording, but to have the TiVo actually get the thing to change channels is an intriguing prospect.)

No access to the sub-channels, tho'. I'd thought the Dish satellite boxes with OTA were for digital channels, not analog. Funny the subs didn't show up in the channel list. Still, it's better than nothing. (And the only real subchannels in my area are on a PBS station, which I don't often watch, let alone record.)

Can't find my original IR blaster, but I'm getting a new one. This is gonna be fun.


----------



## herfmonster

Thanks Jerry I might spring for the one with the S-Video out then


----------



## ronniejay

Circuit City liquidated stores now have the zenith converter boxes at 10&#37; off the $59.99 reg. price. Houston Sharpstown store has hundreds of them. I need 2 more. Will follow them thru next price breaks. Tweeter going out of business store here in Houston has the Tivo HD unit at $269.


----------



## classicsat

gastrof said:


> Do the digital converter boxes even HAVE serial ports on them? My two (different brands) sure don't.


In my research some have a 1/8" service port, none have a full 9 pin serial port.


----------



## David_NC

classicsat said:


> In my research some have a 1/8" service port, none have a full 9 pin serial port.


The manual for the Tivax STB-T9 shows a 9-pin serial connector, but the only reference to it is as a "service port". I doubt you could change channels using serial without hacking the software.


----------



## Meklos

Any boxes yet that are confirmed controllable by a S2 that have a QAM tuner? Don't necessarily care about the coupon...


----------



## kb7oeb

Old LG HDTV tuners respond to the Zenith codes but unless your cable company maps the local channels to match OTA you won't get guide info


----------



## nately

Is there any word on whether the Dish/Echostar converters will be supported? I have a TR-40CRA (very close to a DTVPal), which I get the impression is a pretty common option. I was dismayed to find out it isn't supported yet. The typical EchoStar codes (10001, 10043) are sending the right signals to the box, but it doesn't "know" the right sequences because the converter takes 5-digit channel numbers and the TiVo sends a '0' instead of a '-'...

Are there any advanced settings where I can fix this myself? The TiVo lets you choose 1-digit or 2-digit input, but that doesn't seem to do anything.


----------



## nately

TiVoJerry said:


> We got a DTVPal in and testing shows that we will not be able to support it. Channel changing protocol on all other models we've tested relies on using a delimiter (the dash/dot). Some models will even work if you just enter numbers with no delimiter, but will still work normally when the delimiter is sent. Unfortunately, this model specifically requires entering leading zeroes when you want to go to a subchannel and does not have a delimeter whatsoever.
> 
> I quote from the manual:
> "To change to a sub-channel, enter "0" before entering the channel number. For example, to change to channel 9-2, enter "0092" on the NUMBER PAD."
> 
> We would've liked to have had better news since this seemed to be a model that some of you were interested in.


Oh well, just found this post. It really seems like an arbitrary minor detail (the delimiter) is going to be a pain for people with DVRs, universal remotes, etc. So the TiVo really can't be taught to enter the channel as 5 digits with leading zeros? There aren't any satellite receivers that require channels this way?


----------



## classicsat

Its not that it cannot be "taught", it is that the software uses "-", and is considered finished. Adding support for the Echostar box would mean having to re-write the portion the system software responsible for changing channels on the DTA boxes..


----------



## nately

classicsat said:


> Its not that it cannot be "taught", it is that the software uses "-", and is considered finished. Adding support for the Echostar box would mean having to re-write the portion the system software responsible for changing channels on the DTA boxes..


I guess my (fanciful workaround) suggestion was to add it as an alternative "satellite service" with Echostar IR signals and 5-digit channel numbers. That probably wouldn't change the software, but probably would confuse the hell out of people and require an additional set of program guides.


----------



## newskilz

gastrof said:


> For the moment I've found a nearly tolerable way to handle a Series 1 and a converter box. (Series 1s aren't being updated to control them.)
> 
> I went thru Guided Setup all over again, telling the TiVo it'd be working with Dish Network and my local cable company's extended basic feed.
> 
> Satellite box thru the A/V inputs, cable thru the RF.
> 
> Thing is, there's no satellite box, just a Dish-made converter box.
> 
> After setup I deleted (unchecked) all the cable/satellite type channels from the list, and now all it has is my OTAs and my cable channels.
> [snip]
> The one downside is that I'm not using an IR blaster to control the converter box's channel changes (which I could do since it responds to the Dish satellite IR codes), and so the TiVo has no control at all of the converter box. It's a little annoying to have to reach for the other remote when I want to watch one of the OTAs thru the converter. (When I'm channel surfing on the TiVo, no matter what OTA channel I hit it's always the same channel...whatever one the converter is actually tuned to.  )
> 
> I may set things up with an IR blaster, and see how it goes. (I hate the idea of the IR blaster "mis-firing" and ruining a recording, but to have the TiVo actually get the thing to change channels is an intriguing prospect.)
> 
> No access to the sub-channels, tho'. I'd thought the Dish satellite boxes with OTA were for digital channels, not analog. Funny the subs didn't show up in the channel list. Still, it's better than nothing. (And the only real subchannels in my area are on a PBS station, which I don't often watch, let alone record.)
> 
> Can't find my original IR blaster, but I'm getting a new one. This is gonna be fun.


So what I gathered is that you are already paying for cable service, wouldn't that already have your local stations on it, or does it not carry them and that's why you are trying to get a digital OTA converter box working?



gastrof said:


> The Dish box has its own event timer (to work with old analog recorders and keep them running), so I can set both boxes to record a show off the OTA feed, and the TiVo gets the OTA digital channel when it records.


Huh? you are setting BOTH boxes to record a show off OTA feed? what two boxes are you talking about? I must be missing something here. Anyway, if you have the correct setup, you won't need any type of 'event timer' or anything for the TiVo to work; as long as you have a true converter box,it can be set to never turn off or go into power save mode. Also, curious as to where you are getting or going to get your OTA guide data from?

As for the IR blasters, shouldn't be a problem at all; my S1 hasn't missed anything due to the box not receiving the needed channel change info. The blasters should come with double sided tape stuff and so you just stick the blasters over the converter box IR sensor, and set up the TiVo to control that box-which sounds like you already have but just didn't have the blasters yet. And yes it is fun, especially when you get it working just like it was all part of the TiVo to begin with.


----------



## aarevi

There are some threads on this forum from people who have have successfully used certain HD ATSC and Directv boxes for OTA digital. With some homework I think it can be done easily...


----------



## Mindflux

I apologize for not reading all 30 pages of this thread. I'm looking at getting one of the government subsidized Converter Boxes. Can I control any of these with the TiVo series 2 with the IR Blaster? I'm not doing OTA with an Antenna, I just want to take my coax in from my wall (which is analog currently) and use the digital converter and record/watch it on my Series 2 (DT) I'm picking up tomorrow.


----------



## pcbrew

If you are not using an antenna then your do not need one of these converter boxes.

From your description, you have analog cable. The S2DT will work just fine and you can record 2 things at once while watching another recorded show. 

Only the analog OTA signals are going away in Feb 2009. Analog cable will still be available for as long as the cable company decides to keep it. Even after the cable co switches to digital, you can use the S2 as a signle tuner with one of their digital cable converter boxes.


----------



## Mindflux

pcbrew said:


> If you are not using an antenna then your do not need one of these converter boxes.
> 
> From your description, you have analog cable. The S2DT will work just fine and you can record 2 things at once while watching another recorded show.
> 
> Only the analog OTA signals are going away in Feb 2009. Analog cable will still be available for as long as the cable company decides to keep it. Even after the cable co switches to digital, you can use the S2 as a signle tuner with one of their digital cable converter boxes.


I have digital cable, however on the coax jack I'll be using the S2 on I'll just get basic Analog cable as far as I know. Since you need a TWC Decoder box or a CableCard??


----------



## pcbrew

The S2 accepts analog cable directly - no extra box is needed.

If you want to get digital channels, you will need a TWC cable box. Feed the output of that to the S2. The S2 can change channels on the TWC box using IR blasters.


----------



## aatol79

I doubt if anyone has suggested to TiVo that if they aren't going to have a tuner change option for S1 and S2, to offer a "trade-in" credit towards the purchase of a S3. Certainly they would want S1 and S2 customers to continue their subscriptions, which otherwise would be terminated and effect their cash flow.


----------



## cia_viewer

Mindflux said:


> I apologize for not reading all 30 pages of this thread. I'm looking at getting one of the government subsidized Converter Boxes. Can I control any of these with the TiVo series 2 with the IR Blaster? I'm not doing OTA with an Antenna, I just want to take my coax in from my wall (which is analog currently) and use the digital converter and record/watch it on my Series 2 (DT) I'm picking up tomorrow.


I am running strictly OTA (Over The Air) with an antenna system in the attic.

My Zenith DTT901 (CUSALZK)(April 2008) has been running 24/7 in digital mode for 4 months driven by a S2 TiVo with an IR blaster.


----------



## bgiannes

i've been using my series 2 w/ the OTA box for months.

Then i had a bad disk, which i just replaced with a new one, loaded the image (5.3 i think), then updated to 9.3.2a update. No problems.

Then i when to the setup guide, and selected Digital box, then after tivo connect and downloaded stuff it goes to a "please wait" screen. it just gets stuck!? After leaving to run all night not change.

now if i unplug the tivo, and then run the guide and pick OTA analog (no box) the guide don't get stuck.

then i took out the new drive and dropped in a 120 old i had laying around, and did the same steps.... i got the same result, stuck on "please wait"!?

so i put the new drive back in...... what now?

is there a bug in the guide?

--------------------------
UPDATE
--------------------------

see fix here http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7014182#post7014182


----------



## jacooley42

I'm new here. Is there a special TiVo person or group to contact to have channel lineup problems corrected, or do you just make the usual service call. Or might there be a forum thread that deals with lineup issues.

My father-in-law just moved to a large senior community, and I was encouraged to see that TiVo had the senior community as one of its cable providers when the appropriate zip code was selected. However, the TiVo channel lineup bore no resemblance to the actual channel mapping of the senior community.


----------



## classicsat

You have to call a regular TiVo CSR for now.


----------



## alutis

Has anyone blocked the offending channels on the Voom box? 2 of my three Voom boxes seem to handle this just fine but one is goofy and just kind of reset it self now and then...


----------



## 1apus

Is it possible that the series 2 software can support both cable on the RF in and OTA converter box on RCA inputs at the same time? Just curious...


----------



## pcbrew

TiVo's do not support this officially. See *this post* by TiVoJerry on the matter.

However, there is a workaround to enable this using cable + satellite in Guided Setup and telling the TiVo the ATSC converter box is a Dish tuner. See *the Voom thread* on how to do this.
Since the S2DT does not support OTA or the converter boxes, you need to use this workaround for that box anyway.

I can attest that this works for S2 (240), S2DT (649), and S2 Humax w/DVD (595) models.

The Apex DT250 (available from BestBuy) was the box I used. I said it was a Hughes receiver since the remote codes match. I also found that the Insignia boxes from BestBuy *do not* work properly with this workaround.

BTW, Someone posted remote codes for many of the boxes earlier in this thread.

Access DTA1010D 10094
Apex DT250 10098
Artec T3A Pro 10100
Cadence DTVC9 10097
Channel Master CM-7000 10092
Coship N9988T 10095
Digital Stream DTX9000/DTX9950 UNSUPPORTED
G.E. 22729 10102
Insignia NS-DXA1 10090
Lasonic LTA-260 10091
Magnavox TB100MW9 10086
Microgem MGMG2000 10096
Philco TB100HH9 10101
RCA DTA800 10087
Sansonic FT-300A 10091
Tivax STB-T9 10103
Venturer STB7766G 10093
Winegard RC-DT09 10099
Zenith DTT900/DTT901 10090


----------



## classicsat

No. Single tuners only support two sources when one is Satellite.

Dual Tuners (which do not support the DTA convertors for antenna), support dual sources when one is analog cable.

In either case, you could fake the the DTA box as satellite, for the limited operation that gives.


----------



## ronniejay

alutis said:


> Has anyone blocked the offending channels on the Voom box? 2 of my three Voom boxes seem to handle this just fine but one is goofy and just kind of reset it self now and then...


Are you referring to the re-boot problem on certain channels using certain multiplexors? My voom boxes (3 of them) had this problem with 11-1 (CBS in Houston). I set voom to skip the channel. Since this problem would continue, and perhaps spread, I replaced my voom with a Samsung DTBH260F. I got it from Circuit City for $169, using free gift cards I had. It is now $101 there. I missed the price match time frame.

Tvio does not support these as converter boxes, nor are coupon eligible.


----------



## fivedvrs

My Insignia box that I was using with my S2 now lockups on a regular basis. It used to only lockup on PBS but now it doesn't limit itself to PBS. I think it can't take being on 24/7.

Not trying to go off topic. This was one of the first round of Insignia converter boxes.


----------



## emeba

I have a series 2 for cable and satellite (it does not have a antenna setting so the box isn't listed). Using the advanced setup for channel changing (http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/technicalsupport/issueswithmydvr/Advanced_Troubleshooting_for_Channel_Changing_with_IR_Control.html#ings) and using the IR blaster code for the APEX DT502 (10098) [reference] I am able to control the DTV box with the Tivo IR blaster!


----------



## bgiannes

I have the full OTA digital box running with 9.3.2a ("a" being the OTA version) running for months! with the Insignia box from best buy without any probs ! sub channels and all

since my HD crash i reloaded the tivo os, it wouldn't let me run the digital box setup?

so i had to use the work around 

Has tivo disabled this funtion?

------------------------------------------
UPDATE:
------------------------------------------

There is a software bug with 9.3.2a they talk about the fix here. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7014182#post7014182


----------



## cia_viewer

fivedvrs said:


> My Insignia box that I was using with my S2 now lockups on a regular basis. It used to only lockup on PBS but now it doesn't limit itself to PBS. I think it can't take being on 24/7.
> 
> Not trying to go off topic. This was one of the first round of Insignia converter boxes.


My Zenith DTT901 and IR Blaster have been working fine with my S2 TiVo 24/7 for several months. The Zenith DTT901 is designed with good ventilation.


----------



## restart88

emeba said:


> I have a series 2 for cable and satellite (it does not have a antenna setting so the box isn't listed). Using the advanced setup for channel changing (http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/technicalsupport/issueswithmydvr/Advanced_Troubleshooting_for_Channel_Changing_with_IR_Control.html#ings) and using the IR blaster code for the APEX DT502 (10098) [reference] I am able to control the DTV box with the Tivo IR blaster!


I did that with the Digital Stream and it actually worked better than my 540 box with the OTA software and the Zenith converter. If I'd directly key in an OTA channel it would go to ch 3 (PBS) instead, then if I hit page up it would go to the previously requested channel.

I've since subscribed to local tier cable because they had a $10 a month for a year special, so now I finally get to use my 2nd tuner and love it. I think if I ever went back to OTA I'd have to get a Tivo HD unless I were really strapped for cash. It sure beats juggling Season Pass programming between 2 boxes!


----------



## sololebron

Quick shout. 
Great info from all you guys. Kudo's and thanks especially to Shawn95GT and Pcbrew.

My 2 cents- After cancelling those bloody Comcast-cable pirates, and DishTV not an option technically, the following works with my S2DT. I can accomplish the following:
1- watch TV just with DTV
2- watch and record Tivo programs - <DVDR must be powered ON>
3- burn to DVD Tivo-recorded programs
4- burn to DVD any program tuned on the DTV box or tuned from Tivo tuner.
5- watch any DVD I have.

I used an inexpensive antenna (RCA ANT1450 MultiDirectional), sent coax to DTV box (Digital Stream DTX9950 from the Shack). OUT From DTV, plugged coax to my RF-in jack on DVDR (Lite-On LVW-5115GHC+), also out from DTV box I used A/V Cable (rwy) into my S2DT. Then ran A/V cable OUT of my S2DT into my DVDR. Connecting to TV (old analog GE spacemaker TV/VHS), A.) ran A/V Cable OUT of my DVDR plugged into TV; B.) ran coax out of DVDR to RF-in jack on TV.

I then ran setup instructions from Shawn95GT below (dated 5/2/2007) as a satellite signal. (NOTE: the only difference on Satellite Box Brand, I used Tivo).

Yes, There are limitations to this setup and yes you only can record 1 show to Tivo, etc., etc, But wow, if you don't need (sic), or want Cable or refuse to pay the bastards, don't have lots of time for watching TV, or only enjoy watching OTA, (_*24*_ my favorite_. Or NFL games on Fox, CBS, NBC, ABC this could be your solution.

Hope this helps someone.

_Power to the people, let's save the Republic, kick the bastards out!!!_


----------



## timckelley

magnus said:


> *For Cable:*
> You can use analog cable until the cable companies shut it off. I hear that TWC will shut it off in 2009 or 2010.


When I called Time Warner about a month ago, they said they have no planned cuttoff of analog. He didn't say they won't ever do it, but that at this time, it's not on the schedule for doing it.

However, I'm not sure whether to 100% believe him, because I didn't get the impression that the guy I was talking to was very knowledgable or confident. If anybody has any Time Warner update, I'd certainly be interested in it.


----------



## Fl_Gulfer

I have two D* RCA boxes connected to 2 analog TV's one has a Tivo II connected with the outside antenna hooked to both RCA boxes. Will I have any problems when the switch over happens in June?


----------



## CuriousMark

What model DirecTV (D*) boxes?


----------



## restart88

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I have two D* RCA boxes connected to 2 analog TV's one has a Tivo II connected with the outside antenna hooked to both RCA boxes. Will I have any problems when the switch over happens in June?


If I understand you right you certainly will have a problem. If by D* you mean you have 2 non-HD Direct TV satellite boxes and the outside antenna is for some or all of your your OTA channels you will need a converter box to receive the OTA signals, with the rare exception of a few exempted low power analog channels that may or may not be in your viewing area. I may have a few of them in my area but I have a hard time receiving them and rarely bother trying.

OTOH you can get your Direct TV locals (assuming you have them) just fine.


----------



## herfmonster

I am up and running on my Toshiba SD-H400 S2 using the Apex DT502 controlled with the IR blaster for a week now. So far no missed channels.

Only gripe I have had so far is channel 35-1 SCETV not being strong enough. I thought it would be the stronger of the two. I will have to try 30-1 next week to see if I get a better signal. The shows I set my season passes for were extremely pixelated and had choppy audio. (Live in Lancaster SC)

Overall I am pleased with it's performance and it was easy to set up.

One thing I found out through my own stupidity (LOL) is do not try to adjust the settings on your set top box when you are fifteen minutes behind live TV in the buffer. I tried that and couldn't figure out why nothing was happening until all the buttons I pushed on the converter box remote started dancing on the screen fifteen minutes later when I caught up to that portion of the buffer. (Don't worry I kicked my own butt over that one.)


----------



## renfroman

I just had the Verizon Fios tv system installed yesterday. My one problem is with my bedroom Tivo unit. In the past (with Cablevision) I would simply split the coax, with one going direct to Tivo and the other one going direct to the cable set-top box.

Now,with two boxes, I can only set up the Tivo so that it runs on one-tuner only. My first thought was to run one cable from the wall into the Tivo and the other to the box (same as the cable) -- no such luck.

Nor do I think that I can run either two serial cables from the boxes to the Tivo -- nor do I think that I can run two IR blasters (with a split) to the two cable boxes.

The two boxes I have are: the Motorola HDQip 7100-1 and the Motorola QIP 2500-3.


Am I nuts? Am I missing something so simple that I'll kick myself when I find it out?

Anybody have any ideas? I'd be truly grateful for any help.

peters81


----------



## dswallow

renfroman said:


> I just had the Verizon Fios tv system installed yesterday. My one problem is with my bedroom Tivo unit. In the past (with Cablevision) I would simply split the coax, with one going direct to Tivo and the other one going direct to the cable set-top box.
> 
> Now,with two boxes, I can only set up the Tivo so that it runs on one-tuner only. My first thought was to run one cable from the wall into the Tivo and the other to the box (same as the cable) -- no such luck.
> 
> Nor do I think that I can run either two serial cables from the boxes to the Tivo -- nor do I think that I can run two IR blasters (with a split) to the two cable boxes.
> 
> The two boxes I have are: the Motorola HDQip 7100-1 and the Motorola QIP 2500-3.
> 
> Am I nuts? Am I missing something so simple that I'll kick myself when I find it out?
> 
> Anybody have any ideas? I'd be truly grateful for any help.
> 
> peters81


A Series2 DT unit can only control one cable box. If you want to use dual tuners with a non-analog cable solution, you'll need to move up to a TiVo HD, HD XL or Series 3 unit and CableCARDs.


----------



## renfroman

dswallow said:


> A Series2 DT unit can only control one cable box. If you want to use dual tuners with a non-analog cable solution, you'll need to move up to a TiVo HD, HD XL or Series 3 unit and CableCARDs.


Thanks, Doug. I'll stop trying to dream up harebrained schemes now (like splitting the IR blasters between the two boxes -- which wouldn't work anyway). I appreciate your quick reply.
Peter


----------



## TiVoJerry

renfroman, keep in mind that a service provider like Verizon FIOS going to an "all digital" setup is different than the antenna conversion to digital.

If they have indeed removed all analog channels, the RF input on the S2DT will have nothing available for it to tune to. This change in service on their part nullifies the dual tuning capability of the S2DT since it requires a set top box to convert the digital signal.

While it is indeed _*possible *_ for a S2 (single or dual tuner) to control two separate set top boxes (via IR, or one using serial and the other using IR, but not two serial controls), this can only happen if each cable box is considered a different type of source (works with cable+sat or sat+digital antenna but not cable+cable). In this situation, your S2 (single or dual tuner) will only be able to to tune and control one cable box.


----------



## Fl_Gulfer

Yes these are the old DirecTV boxes from the 90's and I have my Antenna (8'.. 30 feet in the air). So I have to find somewhere cheap to pick up a couple of boxes.


----------



## jmace57

TiVoJerry said:


> Well now, lemme just go proactive and save you some guessing!
> 
> Digital Stream	DTX9000/DTX9950	*UNSUPPORTED*
> 
> Great - that'll teach me to let my wife go redeem our government cards...one guess which kind she bought! ^^^^^^
> 
> Jim


----------



## fallingwater

renfroman said:


> ...with two boxes, I can only set up the Tivo so that it runs on one-tuner only. My first thought was to run one cable from the wall into the Tivo and the other to the box (same as the cable) -- no such luck.
> 
> The two boxes I have are: the Motorola HDQip 7100-1 and the Motorola QIP 2500-3.
> 
> Am I missing something so simple that I'll kick myself when I find it out?
> 
> Anybody have any ideas? I'd be truly grateful for any help.
> 
> peters81





dswallow said:


> A Series2 DT unit can only control one cable box. If you want to use dual tuners with a non-analog cable solution, you'll need to move up to a TiVo HD, HD XL or Series 3 unit and CableCARDs.





renfroman said:


> Thanks, Doug. I'll stop trying to dream up harebrained schemes now...
> Peter





TiVoJerry said:


> renfroman, keep in mind that a service provider like Verizon FIOS going to an "all digital" setup is different than the antenna conversion to digital.
> 
> If they have indeed removed all analog channels, the RF input on the S2DT will have nothing available for it to tune to. This change in service on their part nullifies the dual tuning capability of the S2DT since it requires a set top box to convert the digital signal.
> 
> While it is indeed _*possible *_ for a S2 (single or dual tuner) to control two separate set top boxes (via IR, or one using serial and the other using IR, but not two serial controls), this can only happen if each cable box is considered a different type of source (works with cable+sat or sat+digital antenna but not cable+cable). In this situation, your S2 (single or dual tuner) will only be able to to tune and control one cable box.


Arrange S2DT to control one STB through its composite/S-video input while sending the other STB's coax Ch. 3 output to S2DT's coax-in configured to receive only Ch. 3.

S2DT would have normal TiVo functionality from the first STB and in addition could record manually from the other STB whenever there was a schedule conflict.

May be half-fast, but still better'n only one input, no?


----------



## Fl_Gulfer

I have a RCA DirecTV Plus box connected to a Series 2 Tivo. One of my locals went digital last night and it no longer comes in on that box or my H-10 direcTV box. So If I get a converter box and connect it to my RCA D* TV Plus I still won't be able to get the channels on my tivo menu?


----------



## Fl_Gulfer

Is ther a place that tells us what converter box to buy and how to set it up with direcTV and a series II TIVO??
I need it explained as to a child.. I'm slowly loosing my mind.


----------



## TiVoJerry

Here is a link to the the list of supported digital antenna converters.

Instructions on how to set up the converter are listed here. You just have to set up your single-tuner Series2 for Satellite + Antenna.

If that still leaves you with questions, please ask here and others will be happy to chime in.


----------



## restart88

Fl_Gulfer said:


> Is ther a place that tells us what converter box to buy and how to set it up with direcTV and a series II TIVO??
> I need it explained as to a child.. I'm slowly loosing my mind.


Short answer is yes. After I posted I see Jerry posted a linky. The Digital Stream from Radio Shack is not officially supported and I would avoid the RCA from Wal*Mart. The Zenith 900 or 901 would have bee my recommendation except those models were marketed by Circuit City so fat chance finding those. But the Zenith is cobranded under 3 or 4 different names and is essentially the same box (I forget which ones).

The setup is simple. On the converter box you have RF in for the antenna and Rf out goes to your Tivo Rf in. That's a round threaded connector, of course. 

Then you use the RCA plugs to connect the sat box out jacks to Tivo's in jacks.

The Ir part has 2 black plastic leads with a clear plastic "eye" on each and the other end plugs into a labeled mini jack on back of Tivo. You will place one Ir blaster lead in front of the Ir "receiver eye" on your converter (kinda looks like a red dot, but not to be confused by the power led which is bright, and locating it might take a minute). If you can't find it easily just guess, as it will probably be forgiving.

The other goes to the Ir receiver on the sat box. I am assuming you can identify this Ir part and have the correct one. Make sure you plug the mini jack into Tivo's Ir, not the serial! port (it's labeled).

From here you should be able to go into Tivo's setup menu and it will guide you to a successful completion. If it fails we can try to troubleshoot.

Hope this helps!


----------



## Fl_Gulfer

I was looking at the http://www.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/prm/digital-transition/Antenna_Converter_Instructions.pdf to setup the system but where does the DirecTV box fit into the wireing?


----------



## lfsnz67

I'm trying to setup my mother-in-laws replacement Series2 tivo with her RCADTA800 converter box but it has no option for a converter box in the setup. It says software version 7.2, I've tried downloading over and over for a couple of days but I can't seem to get 9.3 on it.

Any suggestions or am I doing something wrong?

Thanks


----------



## jrm01

Are you sure the connection is completing. Check the Network Page and see if it says pending restart. If so, reboot it.


----------



## lfsnz67

Thanks for replying,

I tried another download, took about 3 hours, says it was successful and still no luck. It doesn't say pending reboot. There is no option for antenna with box.


----------



## CuriousMark

keep downloading until you get a good full download. It sounds like either the phone line is bad and the download is running very slowly, or the download completes but is found corrupt and discarded. If you can try on a cleaner POTS line, that would be good. If the download is failing part way through it will pick up where it left off on the next call if you don't do a test connection or restart the DVR.

If the download is fully completing each call and is being discarded, then it is likely a hard drive failure on the DVR causing that. In that case, pull the drive and test it thoroughly. If that is beyond your skillset, there are companies that advertise here that can do that for you.


----------



## TiVoJedi

I had a difficult time downloading also on a fairly recent TiVo S1 harddrive replacement. It took me 5 attempts for my TiVo to finally get it downloaded and ingested properly and I am using a Turbonet card with broadband. I'm not so sure the connection matters as it seems the TiVo itself is just picky about that download.


----------



## lfsnz67

Thanks for your replies. 
I hope the hard drive isn't bad as it is a refurb fresh from Tivo.

I'll keep trying...


----------



## bicker

Hard drives tend to fail when very young or very old. The only time they are less likely to fail is in between.


----------



## restart88

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I was looking at the http://www.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/prm/digital-transition/Antenna_Converter_Instructions.pdf to setup the system but where does the DirecTV box fit into the wireing?


Like I said.

Then you use the RCA plugs to connect the sat box out jacks to Tivo's in jacks.

You will place one Ir blaster lead in front of the Ir "receiver eye" on your converter (kinda looks like a red dot, but not to be confused by the power led which is bright, and locating it might take a minute). If you can't find it easily just guess, as it will probably be forgiving.

The other goes to the Ir receiver on the sat box. 

I'm not sure why you are confused but no the .pdf graphics in the linky doesn't show you a picture of the sat box hookup.


----------



## lfsnz67

lfsnz67 said:


> Thanks for your replies.
> I hope the hard drive isn't bad as it is a refurb fresh from Tivo.
> 
> I'll keep trying...


Just to follow up, I had to buy a usb NIC adaptor to finally get the upgrade, it just wouldn't update via phone line...


----------



## Fl_Gulfer

restart88 said:


> Like I said.
> 
> Then you use the RCA plugs to connect the sat box out jacks to Tivo's in jacks.
> 
> You will place one Ir blaster lead in front of the Ir "receiver eye" on your converter (kinda looks like a red dot, but not to be confused by the power led which is bright, and locating it might take a minute). If you can't find it easily just guess, as it will probably be forgiving.
> 
> The other goes to the Ir receiver on the sat box.
> 
> I'm not sure why you are confused but no the .pdf graphics in the linky doesn't show you a picture of the sat box hookup.


Sorry My Fault
I don't have to move the Sat box just unhook the antenna and run it thru the Converter. I see.


----------



## cia_viewer

Has anyone used a TiVo S2 recording 'manually' OTA on a long term basis? 
(TiVo support contract expired)

I have done this a few times. Selecting Channel, then Time ...

It is already set up with a Digital converter box.


----------



## Puppy76

I didn't think that worked? I mean I don't think you can use it like that. If you can, then...well it should work if it still lets you record.

I've always had lifetime though so I've never tried...I don't think S2 or S3 works without service though (except the handful of units that had that Tivo Basic or whatever it was called).


----------



## cia_viewer

My limited experience with this was a few years ago when this was our only TiVo and there was a period when newer software could not fit on the HD. Until they resolved that, I was recording manually. We did have 'lifetime' on this TiVo until I bought a new HD Tivo and transferred it over. Our's have always been OTA. During this 'overlap' year we have transferred programs back and forth through our LAN.


----------



## twey

Here is an odd hack I just did:

The RCA DTV converter box (DTA809) actually has a S-Video connector designed in but not populated. The S-video connector and the Y/C circuit EMI filter components are missing and I/O panel is blocked. However, just installing the components does not give the S-Video Y/C output. You will need to add a 10 KOhm pull up resistor at location R452 (at right side of Broadcom BMC3543) to enable the S-video output. It is one of those strapping option on power-on kind of thing.

Now you have an S-Video to TIVO with DTA809.


----------



## wmcbrine

twey said:


> Here is an odd hack I just did:


Very nice! You should post this to AVS Forum -- there's a thread there titled something like "So when do we start hacking the CECBs?", along with a thread or two specific to RCA CECBs.

But if you just want s-video, I'd just buy the Apex or something.


----------



## twey

I did consider to get Apex box 205 for its S-video. However, it has very low rating over all the reviews. I also don't know how to control it with TIVO S1 IR. And, hacking is fun.

I did got a Channel Master CM-7000. It uses Pioneer cable code and work as expected. However, I did not find much improvement with S-Video with a good TV.

I am looking into hack the boxes to let them stay on after power interruption so Tivo can record as normal.


----------



## classicsat

You plug them in with the TiVo into your UPS.

Otherwise you can try ,with the convertor unplugged from power, holding down the power and one of the channel buttons on the box, then plugging it in. I have read that that may enable a mode that it will come on in a powered on state.


----------



## cia_viewer

cia_viewer said:


> Has anyone used a TiVo S2 recording 'manually' OTA on a long term basis?
> (TiVo support contract expired)
> 
> I have done this a few times. Selecting Channel, then Time ...
> 
> It is already set up with a Digital converter box.


I got additional information from TiVo:
Results of Discontinuing service:

No program guide, swivel search, ...
No Sharing programs between TiVos and PC over LAN
Manual recording mode only (Day, Time, Channel)
Can select different CECB
IR Blaster should still work


----------



## Thos19

Can anyone recommend a good converter box that is compatible with the Series 2 serial cable (as opposed to IR emitter option)? Gotta get one for my parents.

Thos.


----------



## classicsat

None are, and there are no plans at this time to make a serial compatibility for the DTA boxes. IR is your only option.


----------



## Thos19

classicsat said:


> None are, and there are no plans at this time to make a serial compatibility for the DTA boxes. IR is your only option.


You cut me...you cut me deep. 

Thos.


----------



## fallingwater

cia_viewer said:


> Has anyone used a TiVo S2 recording 'manually' OTA on a long term basis?
> (TiVo support contract expired)
> 
> I have done this a few times. Selecting Channel, then Time ...
> 
> It is already set up with a Digital converter box.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7042012#post7042012


----------



## atmuscarella

Thos19 said:


> You cut me...you cut me deep.
> 
> Thos.


What's wrong with IR Blasters? I have a Channel Master 7000 connected to Series 2 using IR Blasters - so far no issues at all. Also been using IR Blasters on Sat receiver for 3.5 years with almost no issues.

Good Luck,


----------



## restart88

I had a serial connector on my DBS for a while but the receiver died all too soon. While the Ir does work fine the serial connector was quicker and more reliable IMO.


----------



## Puppy76

I had my S2 rigged up briefly with IR, and it was kind of annoying. Slow, and I was a bit iffy on whether it was always going to work (or if it got knocked out of position or something slightly...)

At least it's something though!


----------



## TiVoJerry

How many here have any experience using an Artec model? I have a report of a problem with this model and would like more feedback. I ran a quick search and did not find what I was looking for. While I dig deeper into my resources, I figured I'd ask here.


----------



## twey

classicsat said:


> You plug them in with the TiVo into your UPS.
> 
> Otherwise you can try ,with the convertor unplugged from power, holding down the power and one of the channel buttons on the box, then plugging it in. I have read that that may enable a mode that it will come on in a powered on state.


I was ready to hack a CM-7000 to auto power on but stumbled to a feature I have not seen from the discussion yet.

The CM7000 has a feature (hidden) called last known state (in a general term). Simply say it will return to last power state after power is restored. If the unit was on, it will turn on by itself (after the 30 second RED-boot state then turn to GREEN-on state). If the unit was in standby, it will turn on for a second than go back to standby (RED->GREEN->ORANGE). I did not find this in the manual. I fact, the manual not even have the disable auto-sleep listed under tools tab.

At least for CM-7000 there is no need to hack the power to let it stay on. Not like the DTA809, I found that CM7000 is powered all the time. There is no off state, only standby. This is implied in the manual under troubleshooting too. As far as I can tell the only place the power been gate off is the tuner.

This maybe is a "feature" the Channel Master don't want CECB to know due to the power saving concern.


----------



## TiVoJerry

twey said:


> I was ready to hack a CM-7000 to auto power on but stumbled to a feature I have not seen from the discussion yet.


Can you send me a PM with detailed instructions on how to access this? I could include the info in a matrix the agents use.


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## twey

TiVoJerry said:


> Can you send me a PM with detailed instructions on how to access this? I could include the info in a matrix the agents use.


TiVoJerry:

It just a fact (by design), no need for change setup or hacking.

To have auto power on:


plug-in and turn on the CM-7000, the LED should turn Green.
unplug power then plug power back in to simulate power lost
wait LED turn RED and it should go back to Green.

To not to have auto power on:


plug-in and turn off (standby) the CM-7000, the LED should turn Orange.
unplug power then plug power back in
wait LED turn RED and it should go Green for a second then back to Orange (standby).

I am not sure this is applicable to all CM-7000 from day-one or is firmware version depedent. My boxes are all just a month old with 6/08 dated firmware.

I would like to hear from other owners if this works all the way back.

Update 1:
jjef confirmed it works for orignal CM (on AVS Forum).


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## cia_viewer

Does any one have any ideas about TiVo Series 2 Life Expectancy?
It was built in Feb 2003. Model #: TCD240040

Also, any ideas about most likely how it would die?


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## wmcbrine

cia_viewer said:


> Does any one have any ideas about TiVo Series 2 Life Expectancy?
> It was built in Feb 2003. Model #: TCD240040


Let's just say, if you paid for lifetime service when it was new, then by TiVo's standards, you've already gotten your money's worth.



> _Also, any ideas about most likely how it would die?_


Hard drive failure is the most likely, followed by power supply failure, IMHO.


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## Puppy76

cia_viewer said:


> Does any one have any ideas about TiVo Series 2 Life Expectancy?
> It was built in Feb 2003. Model #: TCD240040
> 
> Also, any ideas about most likely how it would die?


The hard drive is probably what's going to die first, and then the fan. Both are replaceable though-not officially, but there's all kinds of info on here about doing that.

There are a lot of people still running Series 1s even from the 90's, so I wouldn't worry too much. At worst you can replace the hard drive at some point (or use the fact that you currently have service to get a cheaper price on lifetime on an HD unit  )


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## cia_viewer

Puppy76 said:


> .... (or use the fact that you currently have service to get a cheaper price on lifetime on an HD unit  )


I did that. I am trying to decide about ending series 2 service. I will miss the interconnectivity between the two TiVos. Someone said their 'clock' lost 10 minutes after a year.


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## TiVoJerry

cia_viewer said:


> I did that. I am trying to decide about ending series 2 service. I will miss the interconnectivity between the two TiVos. Someone said their 'clock' lost 10 minutes after a year.


That type of report only comes from a unit that is not being allowed to connect to the service regularly. You can still connect even if you don't have service so that the clock can be set.


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## classicsat

My TiVos are that old and work fine. Mind you I got them second hand, not knowing how previous owners have use, abused, or not used them. My first 240 likely wasn't used much, because it came to me in spring 2005 with 3.2 (upgraded to 160GB drive for Live 8 concert), and it has been used continuously fine until fall 08, powered through a UPS. I can't say about my 140, except I got it with a blown PSU I replaced with my spare parts 140.

That all said, the most common failure is the HDD which is an easy fix (although you may lose recordings), the PSU is second, by replacing it, or that one capacitor that always fails. Last would be motherboard failure, which nothing can be done for.


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## scandia101

TiVoJerry said:


> That type of report only comes from a unit that is not being allowed to connect to the service regularly. You can still connect even if you don't have service so that the clock can be set.


If an S2 Tivo doesn't have a subscription, but you are still using it for manual recordings, connecting to reset a drifting clock will instantly end the ability to manually record. On the other hand, if the Tivo knows that it's sub is canceled and can't manually record, the clock really doesn't serve a purpose so there's no need to reset it.


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## cia_viewer

scandia101 said:


> If an S2 Tivo doesn't have a subscription, but you are still using it for manual recordings, connecting to reset a drifting clock will instantly end the ability to manually record. On the other hand, if the Tivo knows that it's sub is canceled and can't manually record, the clock really doesn't serve a purpose so there's no need to reset it.


Now I am confused! My S2 is now disconnected from phone and internet. It is set up for several repeated manual recordings. e.g.: M-F, Sa, Su, Wd

I think you are saying that if I reconnect it to the internet some time after the subscription for it has run out, it will be ZAPPED?!?

By manually recording, I mean the only info it has is:
once/repeated M-F/Mo/Tu/... Chnl# StartTime EndTime
pretty much like a VCR.


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## scandia101

cia_viewer said:


> I think you are saying that if I reconnect it to the internet some time after the subscription for it has run out, it will be ZAPPED?!?


Every time a Tivo makes a connection, one of the things it does is check for the subscription status. If the sub has been canceled, all recording functions other than the live TV buffer will stop. The exceptions are the Toshiba and Pioneer units with DVD recorders because they have Tivo basic service and the vast majority of the old S1 models.


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## Puppy76

I think when I watch the update thing it actually says "Setting Clock" first and then "Checking service status" second


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## fallingwater

cia_viewer said:


> ...I am trying to decide about ending series 2 service. I will miss the interconnectivity between the two TiVos. Someone said their 'clock' lost 10 minutes after a year.





TiVoJerry said:


> That type of report only comes from a unit that is not being allowed to connect to the service regularly. You can still connect even if you don't have service so that the clock can be set.





Puppy76 said:


> I think when I watch the update thing it actually says "Setting Clock" first and then "Checking service status" second


I have an S2 which still can record manually over a year after its service was discontinued because I didn't let it connect before service was cancelled. I wouldn't trust the timing for pulling the plug to get the clock reset without updating the service status. It lost 10 minutes after a year.


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## timckelley

I suppose in such situation then, you have to once in awhile (every few months?) Go in an adjust all your manual repeating recordings to compensate for the drift.

I guess you could always keep a note taped to your TiVo that says how many minutes off the clock is, and then whenever you schedule new manual recordings, you build in the offset from your note.

This is a neat trick for getting free use out of an S2.


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## twey

I finally decide to change my TiVo S1 setup to accept my CM-7000 DTV converter today (with wife's approval). I wasn't sure I want to do that because both Comcast and U-verse has few OTA channels remapped in S.F. bay area, and happens one of them is the channel we frequently record.

I was surprise to find that there is a setting I never knew before in the guided setup. I set TiVo S1 to use cable box. I was intended to use either Comcast of U-verse as the carrier and manually record the missing channels. When I was in the carrier manual, there is a selection "Over the Air Only - Antenna" (in the cable box manual, that is right). Was it there before? Well, I pick the selection, made call and all the local channels are there at right place (almost). The long story short, the TiVo S1 does pick the AV input to get them from the DTV box (instead of the internal tuner). And, by using Pioneer code with IR blaster, the CM-7000 does change the channel. Is this something TiVo did to answer the S1 owner's request? Or, just I was blinded when last time I try that on my Sony S1 a month ago? Anyway it is a much needed progress. Thanks, TiVo.

Well, it is not perfect. Since TiVo only can set for the primary channels not the sub-channels, I never can record a sub-channel program. The TiVo refuse to take 3-digit code for change the channel as I can do with Comcast setting. All the selection above 68 is disallowed. Also, the channel lineup is not totally correct, yet. Few of the channels are not listed or listed wrong. I don't thing I can blame TiVo yet since the DTV carriers are still moving around their service. I hope this will be correct went the dust settled.

*Now the CM-7000 with S-Video, auto-power on, and Cable-OTA setup. Long live the S1. Now you are in the age of digital TV .* 

The side note: The guided setup finish just in one pass. Maybe I am just lucky or it been fixed when I was in sleep&#8230;


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## realtoratlanta

Hi Doug. Are you using the Infrared blaster with the Radio Shack Converter Box? Did the codes come from one of the Radio Shack Cable Box codes? I have a Tivo Series 1 with lifetime membership and happily have a cable lineup that matches my OTA channel lineup exactly. I am trying to decide which converter box will make this as simple as possible.

Michael


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## newskilz

twey said:


> I finally decide to change my TiVo S1 setup to accept my CM-7000 DTV converter today (with wifes approval). I wasnt sure I want to do that because both Comcast and U-verse has few OTA channels remapped in S.F. bay area, and happens one of them is the channel we frequently record.
> 
> I was surprise to find that there is a setting I never knew before in the guided setup. I set TiVo S1 to use cable box. I was intended to use either Comcast of U-verse as the carrier and manually record the missing channels. When I was in the carrier manual, there is a selection Over the Air Only  Antenna (in the cable box manual, that is right). Was it there before? Well, I pick the selection, made call and all the local channels are there at right place (almost).


  I ran into that a little while back also. I am with you about not seeing it there before, but definitely easier to setup. And for me all channels line up correctly.


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## cia_viewer

realtoratlanta said:


> Hi Doug. Are you using the Infrared blaster with the Radio Shack Converter Box? Did the codes come from one of the Radio Shack Cable Box codes? I have a Tivo Series 1 with lifetime membership and happily have a cable lineup that matches my OTA channel lineup exactly. I am trying to decide which converter box will make this as simple as possible.
> 
> Michael


I have s S2 TiVo that works quite well (through the IR Blaster) with my Zenith DTT901 CECB. The Zenith, with its well ventilated metal case, runs 24/7 and remains cool. It is reassuring to be able to 'set it and forget it'.


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## dbrashear

twey said:


> Well, it is not perfect. Since TiVo only can set for the primary channels not the sub-channels, I never can record a sub-channel program. The TiVo refuse to take 3-digit code for change the channel as I can do with Comcast setting. All the selection above 68 is disallowed. Also, the channel lineup is not totally correct, yet. Few of the channels are not listed or listed wrong. I dont thing I can blame TiVo yet since the DTV carriers are still moving around their service. I hope this will be correct went the dust settled.


Don't suppose anyone's tried making an IR blaster that remaps? Seems like if the remote codes are known, a PIC could be programmed to DTRT.


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## classicsat

I kind of did for satellite. It receives a serial signal emulating a DSS receiver, and translates the channel number into keypad matrix closures for the OEM remote. Mind you I did it in an Atmel AT90S2313 with only 2K memory (also a limit of the demo version of Bascom AVR Basic Compiler I used).
A modern Atmel or PIC with a proper dev platform will have more capacity to do actual translation.


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## MickeS

So, getting ready to get a converter box for my Series 2 TiVo (230-model).

Which is the best and easiest option? APEX 502 and CM-7000 seem to be favored, are those still the best options? Are they both always-on or have auto-on?

Does anyone know if this Insignia (Best Buy by LG apparently) works with TiVo and if it has auto on? Any equivalent with s-video output? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8854527&type=product&id=1209166340855

Sorry, this thread is a little unwieldy to try and find info in. 

Thanks.


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## atmuscarella

MickeS said:


> So, getting ready to get a converter box for my Series 2 TiVo (230-model).
> 
> Which is the best and easiest option? APEX 502 and CM-7000 seem to be favored, are those still the best options? Are they both always-on or have auto-on?
> 
> Does anyone know if this Insignia (Best Buy by LG apparently) works with TiVo and if it has auto on? Any equivalent with s-video output? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8854527&type=product&id=1209166340855
> 
> Sorry, this thread is a little unwieldy to try and find info in.
> 
> Thanks.


check out this TiVo Support site: http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/310

I have a CM 7000 on one of my Series 2 TiVos - it works fine.

Good Luck,


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## MickeS

atmuscarella said:


> check out this TiVo Support site: http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/310
> 
> I have a CM 7000 on one of my Series 2 TiVos - it works fine.
> 
> Good Luck,


Thanks! Seems like I can just go ahead and get that one, gets good reviews at Amazon.


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## tootal2

MickeS said:


> Thanks! Seems like I can just go ahead and get that one, gets good reviews at Amazon.


I like the cm700 but i wish i could turn off the led in front. Since i have it in my bedroom.


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## MickeS

tootal2 said:


> I like the cm700 but i wish i could turn off the led in front. Since i have it in my bedroom.


That won't be a problem for me since it's in a wood cabinet and can't be seen at all. Thanks though. 

I guess you could tape over it with electrical tape or something, though that might not look so great...


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## tootal2

MickeS said:


> That won't be a problem for me since it's in a wood cabinet and can't be seen at all. Thanks though.
> 
> I guess you could tape over it with electrical tape or something, though that might not look so great...


I think i will go try that. I guess i should unplug it first

I dont know why they made it so the led is always on. The led is on when its on and on when its off.


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## TiVoJerry

Stay away from the Artec. We had initial reports that it worked fine but have had a few complaints about rebooting while testing that IR code. 

I'll get the article updated. (thought I did that already)


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## MickeS

https://secure.freetvsignal.com/viewBox.php?productNo=antennaDeal

TiVojerry, is that the Artec box you're talking about that might not work well with TiVo Series 2 (listed as supported on http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/310)? EDIT: That was it, since it's now listed as NOT supported.

Not getting that one then... CM-7000 it is, I think. Will wait and see if I can find a deal on it.


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## cia_viewer

My vote remains firmly for the Zenith DTT901.

See: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7203867#post7203867


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## tootal2

cia_viewer said:


> My vote remains firmly for the Zenith DTT901.
> 
> See: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7203867#post7203867


the dtt901 does not have s-vhs output. The cm7000 has a better picture. But the zoom on the cm7000 seems kind of off center.


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## ronniejay

I just finished going thru the "Guided Resetup" on my Toshiba RS-TX20 TIVO DVR.Using Zenith DTT901 Converter box. I am at sw version 9.3.2-01-2-565. WORKS LIKE A CHARM!

Tips &#8211; 

POWER OFF the tivo before any extreme moving, twisting, tilting, plugging in cables, etc. &#8211; the harddrive is spinning and could be damaged!!!

install the c-box 1st and check it out going thru ch3 on the tivo
Do the channel scan
Have and plug in and tape the ir emitter to the right of the blue indicator light on c-box

Have the phone line hooked up, if that is what you use. 

Took me 1 hour, including unit dialing up 1st for setup info, then for 

Will do my other Toshiba TIVO SD-H400 tonight.


Thx Tivojerry!

Ron


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## scandia101

Adam1115 said:


> No reason? OTA ATSC boxes have been out for years and no Series 2's support them.
> 
> What makes you think they will change that?
> 
> Personally I think you are SOL with tuning OTA on a series two, even with a converter. You'll have to use cable or a TiVo HD.





Adam1115 said:


> It isn't some crazy software development to support them. It's an IR code and a menu option. The series 2 already supports some of them if you use work arounds like pretending it's a satellite receiver. There isn't any reason they aren't supporting them except they have chosen not to. Tha's fine, but it indicates (to me) their attitude about supporting OTA in general on the S2.


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## cdnhoser

Folks

I just installed our Motorola box from Comcast (in SF Bay Area). From what I can see at the TiVo site, Motorola is not supported by TiVo. Does that mean that I am hosed in terms of being able to use by TiVo S2?

What if I split the cable signal from the wall, run into a DTA (some DAC box I believe) and then use the IR control from TiVo to change the channel on the DTA? Not pretty. 

Does anyone have a better solution? Thanks in advance for your advice.


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## bicker

I think you're in the wrong thread... this thread is mostly about setting up the S2 with over-the-air DTV broadcast converter boxes. If you got a box from Comcast, it is a cable box. 

I've used my S2 with a Comcast-provided Motorola-produced STB (way in the past). You just need the right IR code. Go through Guided Setup and try each one.


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## ronniejay

Toshiba TIVO SD-H400 only took a fast 30 minutes.

I am a Verrrry happy camper. This one is shown on my new Proscan using a Zenith converter box. The converted digital signal looks verry good.


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## cia_viewer

KBDI 12 switch RF(38) => RF(13) reduced our reception level from 62 => 50
It also confused TiVo. They must notify their contractor who must confirm the changes with individual stations and then report back to TiVo before TiVo can update their database for updating TiVo customers.

Besides KBDI, TiVo did not know about the existance of KPJR 38 RF(38).

This convoluted process may take seven days.

In the mean time, the only way to record KBDI programs is the 'manual method' by specific station and time.


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## cia_viewer

cia_viewer said:


> KBDI 12 switch RF(38) => RF(13) reduced our reception level from 62 => 50
> It also confused TiVo. They must notify their contractor who must confirm the changes with individual stations and then report back to TiVo before TiVo can update their database for updating TiVo customers.
> 
> Besides KBDI, TiVo did not know about the existance of KPJR 38 RF(38).
> 
> This convoluted process may take seven days.
> 
> In the mean time, the only way to record KBDI programs is the 'manual method' by specific station and time.


*Hooray! 
KBDI fixed last night.*


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## cia_viewer

They have also fixed KPJR.


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## wmcbrine

The analog channels were finally removed from the guide today, at least here.


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## bicker

Here, as well.


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## newskilz

Same here, which screwed up my easy way of getting guide data via cable, w/box, OTA antenna only method. There's no data now, since all channels are digital, and TiVo saw those channels as analog...  Ended up having to switch to satellite to get proper guide data. 

Hey, at least my S1 still works this way.


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## jrm01

wmcbrine said:


> The analog channels were finally removed from the guide today, at least here.


In Pittsburgh also.


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## Whittaker

1) Can anyone confirm that Magnavox kept the IR code the same on the TB100M*G*9 from the TB100M*W*9 ? As only the TB100MW9 is on the TiVo compatibility list.

2) My brother picked-up a Coship N9901T but it doesn't change the channels, and I'm thinking Coship must have changed the IR code from their N9988T which is on the TiVo compatibility list. Anyone able to get the N9901T to work ?

Thanks


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## big pc man

fallingwater said:


> Arrange S2DT to control one STB through its composite/S-video input while sending the other STB's coax Ch. 3 output to S2DT's coax-in configured to receive only Ch. 3.
> 
> S2DT would have normal TiVo functionality from the first STB and in addition could record manually from the other STB whenever there was a schedule conflict.
> 
> May be half-fast, but still better'n only one input, no?


This sounds like a great idea. Questions:

1. How is the channel changing done for the "record manually from the other STB whenever there was a schedule conflict." I thought in order to use two ir outputs the stb's had to be different ie one sat and one cable? Or do you mean really manual where the second stb channel is changed manually?

2. For the manual recording stb what program guide is displayed?


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## Shawn95GT

I'm all but sure the DT won't let you set it up for two STBs but it would be cool if it will. The regular 540 S2 would run two STBs.


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## scandia101

Shawn95GT said:


> I'm all but sure the DT won't let you set it up for two STBs but it would be cool if it will. The regular 540 S2 would run two STBs.


The Tivo wouldn't actually know the box connected to the rf input is not analog cable. It would control the first box and work normally. For the second box, you'd have to have it tuned to the channel you want to record from and then set up a manual recording for channel 3 or if the guide data for analog channel 3 shows a 30 minute program scheduled at the time you need to record for 30 minutes you could choose to record that program - tivo would think it's that program anyway, but of course the program title and info would always be incorrect.

It's not at all elegant, but it'll work.


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