# Lost 4-25-07 "D.O.C." *Spoilers Inside*



## JWolff (Oct 30, 2002)

Here we go.....


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Patchy? I'm confused...


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## bqmeister (May 13, 2006)

Isn't he dead?

Now I understand why people want to stay on the island!


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I guess they weren't just laying naked under the sheets then


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

Interesting last exchange....


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Purgatory say what???

HURLEY: What???


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Two thought about pregnancy. With the Island Super-Sperm, I suspect any woman who's had sex is probably going to turn up pregnant (hi, Kate!). And judging from Sun's life expectancy, it looks like things are going to be coming to a head right around the time the show is tentatively scheduled to end (end of Season 5)...


unicorngoddess said:


> I guess they weren't just laying naked under the sheets then


I'm afraid that issue is much like creationism--no amount of evidence is going to convince the true believers!


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Favorite line of the episode -

Charlie: "How about I poke your other eye out? how would you like that?" 

or some such (someone give me the correct quote)


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

"I should have the other samples soon, including Austen's."

Wait, did I miss something? Didn't Juliet just let Sun know that you will only be sick if you conceived ON THE ISLAND? Wouldn't this mean that Claire wouldn't be sick, and would expose the faking of Claires sickness??????


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

So eyepatch men can come back from the dead, but pregnant women move on to another level of Hell? I'm lost.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

"Oceanic Flight 815.....that can't be.....they found flight 815 and everyone was dead." Gee, now who here actually believes that is what really happened???


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I will toss out that after seeing that episode, I am thinking maybe eyepatch guy wasn't really dead. That either it was fake out with him and Locke setting it up, or just him faking them out to scare them. Mikhail didn't really die.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Too bad Nikki died, she probably would have been pregnant with Artz's baby.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

So every guy on the island just upgraded from a squirt gun to a howitzer? LOL


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Yep. Not purgatory. Uh huh.

So the woman died while looking for Desmond, her "ghost" in purgatory has the same clothes and a picture that she'd had in real life, and before she died she saw on the news that flight 815 was found and the survivors were dead?

..or are the writers absolutely totally %[email protected]&ing with us, laughing their asses off? 

They'll have to have a really interesting "non-purgatory" version of the explanation to balance this out and keep it ambiguous..

A quick slap in the face to the first person that says they didn't ask enough questions this week.. (Hurley was firing them off at rapid pace.. so was Sun)

Speaking of Sun.. all she said is that she "slept with" another man.. she didn't say they had intercourse.. When they were talking about whether it was Jin's baby or the other guy's, she could have meant that for all she knew her friend had kidnapped her while she slept, drugged her, and artificially inseminated her with a turkey baster..

And speaking of purgatory, maybe women who've had babies while alive (that is, before they arrived at the island) continue to stay walking on the island because the baby had a "soul" (ugh, painful to even say), and the baby died too, so it's there in purgatory with the mother... but if the mother had a baby while in purgatory, the baby had no soul, and if it gave birth it'd blow the whole illusion, so they go away earlier.. or maybe a baby conceived in purgatory is "special" (like a blessed angel or something) and that's why the mother and baby get to move on early (which turns out to be a good thing).

Eh, a holodeck is better.. The simulation needs real humans for each human on the island, even if it's a baby, and they can't "make one up" to account for the illusion of a fake pregnancy in the holodeck (i.e. if you weren't really there on a beach, you didn't really have sex, so there can't really be a new consciousness to tap into for a new avatar in the holodeck. Uh huh.

By the way, absolutely loved the episode, especially the last lines. Doing a quick re-watch now.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

I really liked the back-story on Jin and Sun. In an odd way, it kind of reminded me of a reverse "Gift of the Magi", where Sun was trying to protect Jin but her actions ended up putting Jin in debt to her father, making him distant from Sun, so that she essentially was sacrificing her marriage by saving Jin from shame.

I also loved when Hurley told Mikhail that they found the sat phone, and Charlie just shook his hide like, "How stupid are ya, Hurley? We don't give away the secrets."

(Oh, by the way, apparently the Losties talk to each other. Charlie knew who Mikhail was and he knew about the electric fence!)


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok now I remember what I wanted to say..

Another scene where it REALLY mattered so someone that they'd given their word on something.. (Desmond to eyepatch guy). Enough to let him go.

And that's Desmond, a guy who spent quite a bit of time in Dharma clothes.. (Ben also uses Dharma stuff).

Very tired. Jeff sleep now.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I don't wonder that the writers are just playing with us fans.

Every week they toss in a well known fan theory and see how it floats. Purgatory is an old thought, an old theory. I am not buying into it. 

And by the way, did anyone else notice that Jin had the honorable father? Almost everyone else of the Losties has been shown to have a nasty, drunk, con artist, selfish father. Jins father was great!

edit: sad that Jin has to tell everyone his father is dead. Not an honorable son.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Anyone speak italian? What'd she actually say?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> And speaking of purgatory, maybe women who've had babies while alive (that is, before they arrived at the island) continue to stay walking on the island because the baby had a "soul" (ugh, painful to even say), and the baby died too, so it's there in purgatory with the mother... but if the mother had a baby while in purgatory, the baby had no soul, and if it gave birth it'd blow the whole illusion, so they go away earlier.. or maybe a baby conceived in purgatory is "special" (like a blessed angel or something) and that's why the mother and baby get to move on early (which turns out to be a good thing).


As Patchy said when Charlie threatened to poke out his other eye: "Huh?"


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

The same flights have the same numbers daily. Maybe Oceanic 815 crashed again on another day and that plane was found.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

stalemate said:


> The same flights have the same numbers daily. Maybe Oceanic 815 crashed again on another day and that plane was found.


Usually, if a flight crashes and hundreds of people die, the airline removes that flight number from use.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Scottykempf, you are at 815 posts!!! that's eerie!

well, until you post again....


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

betts4 said:


> And by the way, did anyone else notice that Jin had the honorable father? Almost everyone else of the Losties has been shown to have a nasty, drunk, con artist, selfish father. Jins father was great!


He's one of the nicest characters on the show.. Anyone who can look at him in this episode and not have their heart go out to him has no heart to begin with..

There's something about the Korean voice during his sitdown w/Sun that was damned _pleasing_.. I feel shame for Jin that he felt the need to not acknowledge such a sweet, honorable man. (not a smeek, saw betts4's edit, just mirroring the sentiment).


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> As Patchy said when Charlie threatened to poke out his other eye: "Huh?"


Try to keep up.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Anyone speak italian? What'd she actually say?


Ooh, correction.. After patchy helps her with her lung, the closed caption says she said something in _portuguese_ (earlier he'd said she was speaking Italian, and she probably was then).

HE said she said "Thank you for helping me", but babelfish.altavista.com says that english phrase is "Obrigado ajudando a me." in portuguese (although there could be many ways of saying it).

She said something that sounds like (phonetically) eye-in-ooooh isss-toe-so.

Anyone speak portuguese?


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

betts4 said:


> I will toss out that after seeing that episode, I am thinking maybe eyepatch guy wasn't really dead. That either it was fake out with him and Locke setting it up, or just him faking them out to scare them. Mikhail didn't really die.


I thought this too. Maybe he used that opportunity to fake that the fence killed him thinking the losties would not try to cross the fence and he could eventually get up and walk away.

But, that doesn't explain the foaming mouth, etc. Also, I don't remember if any of the losties checked his pulse or anything after they got over the fence.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok, all of her dialog according to closed captioning:

Me estoy muriendo (Spanish: I am dying)

Aiutame. Sto... Sto morendo. (Italian: Aiutame? I am... I am dying)

(no caption text for her portuguese that sounded like eye-in-ooooh isss-toe-so.. HE said it was "Thank you for helping me", but there was strange music playing)

Where am I?
Who are you?
815?
Flight 815? The one from Sydney?
No. That's not possible.
No, no.
No, Flight 815 - they... they found the plane.
There were no survivors. 
They were all gaunt.

Or maybe that last word was dead.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

scottykempf said:


> "I should have the other samples soon, including Austen's."
> 
> Wait, did I miss something? Didn't Juliet just let Sun know that you will only be sick if you conceived ON THE ISLAND? Wouldn't this mean that Claire wouldn't be sick, and would expose the faking of Claires sickness??????


No. She said you die if you conceive on the island. Claire got sick but lived. Getting sick then living is not the same thing as dying.

So the others faked the plane crash somehow? I guess they faked dental records too or what? Cloning?

Wasn't there rampant speculation that patches mcgoo faked his death?


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Maybe Naomi is from the future and in the future the losties were all found dead. She doesn't know she is in her past now on the island.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Wow. Awesome ep! The ending really threw me! They found the plane?? It seems every time the writers raise a question that seems to be "magical" or "mystical" they give it a worldly explanation. Curious what they'll do with this.

If Ben was born on the island then apparently at one time the women there could get pregnant. In the Dharma orientation video they did say there was a mishap on the island and that's what caused them to enter in the numbers every 108 minutes. So maybe that mishap caused the women to die?

J


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

jwjody said:


> If Ben was born on the island then apparently at one time the women there could get pregnant.


Not necessarily. He could have been conceived off the island and born on the island. Just like Claire's baby.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Or he could be lying.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

The discovery of flight 815's wreckage could have been staged by Dharma.


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## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

I think she said ayudame, which means help me.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

From Lostpedia:
# After Mikhail and Desmond treat Naomi's wound, she says something in Portuguese not spelled out in the captions. It is not "Thank you" as Mikhail claims. Instead, it sounds like "Eu não estou só" which is Portuguese (spoken with a Brazilian accent) for "I am not alone." This is possibly in conjunction with the discovery of the backpack containing the book entitled "Ardil 22" the Portuguese-language version of "Catch 22."


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> I guess they weren't just laying naked under the sheets then


How so? She DIDN'T get pregnant by that guy, so they might not have had sex.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> The discovery of flight 815's wreckage could have been staged by Dharma.


Lucky for the Losties that Desmond wasn't on 815, or the Portuguese might have quit looking a long time ago. 

And this also implies that the island could be found more easily perhaps than we thought. The only reason to fake the crash is to get people to stop looking, or they might find something Dharma didn't want them to find.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

I feel like I missed something along the way. Why did the program description say that an old nemesis of Desmond's would help? I had the sound down because of a phone call in the middle of the show, and the ABC station in Colorado Springs didn't seem to be sending CC out. Maybe I missed it.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

betts4 said:


> And by the way, did anyone else notice that Jin had the honorable father? Almost everyone else of the Losties has been shown to have a nasty, drunk, con artist, selfish father. Jins father was great!
> 
> edit: sad that Jin has to tell everyone his father is dead. Not an honorable son.


We don't know for sure the fisherman is Jin's birth father. Even he is not sure, as the baby was left on his doorstep, as it were. We only know that Jin has a nasty con artist selfish mother. Don't know if she was drunk.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

Delta13 said:


> I feel like I missed something along the way. Why did the program description say that an old nemesis of Desmond's would help? I had the sound down because of a phone call in the middle of the show, and the ABC station in Colorado Springs didn't seem to be sending CC out. Maybe I missed it.


The description says "unlikely nemesis." I think a presumed dead other qualifies as that.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> The discovery of flight 815's wreckage could have been staged by Dharma.


Bingo.
They wanted the search operations to cease because they were afraid of discovery so they faked the wreckage of 815.


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## bpurcell (Mar 16, 2005)

JYoung said:


> Bingo.
> They wanted the search operations to cease because they were afraid of discovery so they faked the wreckage of 815.


That's possible, but she also mentioned they were all dead, implying they found the bodies. My assumption is she's lying. There's no way for the losties to verify her story, so it's an easy lie.

Looks like Dharma tried to do a risky parachute drop since they weren't able to use the sub after the "purple light". The phone is definitely an important object that will have a large impact in the upcoming episodes.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

" There were no survivors of flight 815! "

"We're the survivors of filight 815!"

Save and reuse...


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

balboa dave said:


> We don't know for sure the fisherman is Jin's birth father. Even he is not sure, as the baby was left on his doorstep, as it were. We only know that Jin has a nasty con artist selfish mother. Don't know if she was drunk.


But Dave, I was referring to all the other fathers we have seen, descriptions of them, not of one in general. nasty = lockes dad, drunk = jacks or kates dad, con artist = lockes dad again, selfish = suns dad or hurleys dad.

Jin's dad was a better 'dad' than any of the real fathers of the losties were. Birth or not.

Walt does have something in common with Jin. They both had yucky mom's.


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## yaddayaddayadda (Apr 8, 2003)

bpurcell said:


> That's possible, but she also mentioned they were all dead, implying they found the bodies. .


Not necessarily. If you find a pile of floating, burning plane wreckage in the middle of the ocean, and no living people anywhere near - it's pretty safe to assume that they are all dead. Dead people don't float initially.


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## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> The discovery of flight 815's wreckage could have been staged by Dharma.


DINGDINGDING! We have a winner! This is by far the best explanation. The others are powerful, have lots of resources, and do NOT want to be found, so they would be in a good position and have good motive to stage the crash.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

I enjoyed the fight between Mikhail and Jin. Jin kicks butt!!


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Also, Juliet said "I hate you" about Ben. If she hates him so much why is she following his lead? What does he hold over her still. Everything from him has been manipulation and lies. One can only take so much of that....


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Sun sharing a cup of coconut juice with Juliet would strain my imagination. Sun going off with Juliet in the middle of the night to a Dharma location insulted my intelligence.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Sun sharing a cup of coconut juice with Juliet would strain my imagination. Sun going off with Juliet in the middle of the night to a Dharma location insulted my intelligence.


Not if she thought there was a chance that her baby could be saved...


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> With the Island Super-Sperm, I suspect any woman who's had sex is probably going to turn up pregnant (hi, Kate!).


Or so says Juliet. Who isn't exactly the most trustworthy of people.

What I can't understand is how come Sun didn't ask Juliet why she wanted to keep the trip the Dharma medical secret (from Jack in particular). When Sun asked why Juliet was "helping" her, I kept waiting for her to follow up with "so if you're helping me, then why is it such a big secret that you had to drag me from my tent in the middle of the night?", but somehow Sun didn't follow up...


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

stevieleej said:


> Dharma could have caused the original flight 815 crash.


I thought that it was pretty well established that Desmond caused 815 to crash by neglecting the machine...


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## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

DHARMA didn't arrange the plane crash.

The plane's radios malfunctioned and they turned towards Fiji. This resulted in their being in the vicinity of the Island when Desmond was late pushing the button and the magnetic discharge caused the plane to break up and crash. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As for Search and Rescue finding the wreckage... Well, remember that the tide came in and washed the wreckage of the fuselage off the beach. The tail section fell in the water in the first place. Suppose the currents somehow carried the wreckage to somewhere that it could be found. The searchers find the wreckage and find some bodies in it. (Remember that the fuselage was burned too; they may have assumed that a fire on board caused the crash.) Missing bodies would have assumed to simply have been lost; it wouldn't be unexpected to not find everyone after a breakup and crash at sea.

So, it isn't outside the realm of possibility that some of the wreckage was found and the assumption was made that everyone had died in the crash. In fact, that would be a pretty good assumption, under the circumstances.

And they obviously aren't dead or in purgatory or whatever, unless the afterlife is suddenly accessible via submarine and helicopter.

Random thoughts. Juliet says in her message to Ben that she expects to examine Kate soon. (Actually, she says "Austen". She also calls Sun "Kwon". Notice that she always refers to everyone by their last names?) I suspect this means that she thinks that Kate either is or soon will be pregnant. (She's been with Sawyer at least twice now, and neither she nor Sawyer knew about the 5x normal sperm production.)

Charlie mentions that Kate told them about Mikhail. Sun mentions that Kate told her about the medical hatch. So apparently the survivors _are_ talking to each other about things, we just aren't seeing it.

My theory for today comes from some things Mikhail said. Remember, he certainly looked dead, but he got better. He also said that parachute-gal would heal from her wound in a day. Maybe a day and a half.

Suppose everyone _did_ die in the crash, but some of them got better.

Also, while I'm here, I need a spoiler ruling. Is information from the official podcast about a previously aired episode considered a spoiler? Cuse and Lindelof in their podcast sometimes clarify things from earlier episodes. It becomes relevant in that we sometimes have discussions here where people are arguing if something was "A" or "B" and they state in the podcast that it was definitely "A". Would repeating that info here be considered spoilage? (For prior episodes. Obviously any hints they give about future episodes would be spoilers.)


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

zync said:


> DINGDINGDING! We have a winner! This is by far the best explanation. The others are powerful, have lots of resources, and do NOT want to be found, so they would be in a good position and have good motive to stage the crash.


Quadruple Bingo! I'm right there with everyone on DHARMA staging a false wreck site to shut the world up, especially after seeing the 815 search footage in the comm center a few weeks ago, DHARMA didn't want the survivors found.

And the producers have said very clearly "no it is not purgatory" enough that we have to believe them, they've omitted things, dodged questions, but when they've said things with clear direction they haven't been wrong yet (to my recollection) i.e. the great "bad date on the X-ray fiasco" So far I have not had them lie to us, misdirection is a way of life, but not lying.

Diane


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

tanstaafl said:


> She's been with Sawyer at least twice now, and neither she nor Sawyer knew about the 5x normal sperm production.


Even if the 5x sperm is true, how do you think that would have changed anything between her and Sawyer?

Are you implying that if they thought Sawyer had 5x his normal number of sperm they would use protection while if he was at normal levels then they would not?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Why is juliet "helping" ben? Well, one of her motives is probably actually solving the fertility problem, which would seem to be what she spoke of to ben in her message.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

IMHO, whatever organization is overseeing the "others", either Darhma or Widmore, staged *a* crash of flight 815, in the following sequence:

Ben and his people see the crash, they are genuinely surprised by it (they *DIDN'T* cause it or plan it). We've been shown the scene of them seeing it twice.

They send scouts to the tail and fuselage section to see if their are any survivors (Ethan and Goodwin).

They find that their are survivors, and that the survivors have value to their research.

To keep their "use" of the survivors for their secret research secret, they cannot risk rescue parties searching for the survivors.

Therefore, their parent organization (Darhma or Widmore), either of which seem to have almost unlimited resources, plants a staged "decoy" crash on another island.

The authorities find the "decoy", conclude that it's flight 815, and close the case.

Result: the "others" have a "secret supply" of Losties on whom they can conduct research.

Similarly, for reasons yet unknown, they faked the death of "Patchy". (Could have been easy if they managed to recruit Locke to be working for them before Locke even *apparently, as far as the Losties know* ever met patchy.)


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> And the producers have said very clearly "no it is not purgatory" enough that we have to believe them, they've omitted things, dodged questions, but when they've said things with clear direction they haven't been wrong yet (to my recollection) i.e. the great "bad date on the X-ray fiasco" So far I have not had them lie to us, misdirection is a way of life, but not lying.
> 
> Diane


The Others aren't on the island. They're producing a show called Lost.

Greg


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I wonder if Juliet wants off the island so badly because *she* is pregnant?


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Best line of the night...


"Oops"


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Great episode. AICN gave it 5 stars. I never read the spoilers, but they do show the star rating in the headlines.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

The mojo is back...


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## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> Even if the 5x sperm is true, how do you think that would have changed anything between her and Sawyer?
> 
> Are you implying that if they thought Sawyer had 5x his normal number of sperm they would use protection while if he was at normal levels then they would not?


There's a difference between "there's always a chance" and "it's a virtual certainty". When playing bedroom roulette you want to make certain only one chamber in that revolver is loaded.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

So if it's 90 days since the crash and Sun is 52 days Pregnant, then she got pregnant on day 38. Way back in season 1, around the time of "Deus Ex Machina".

I don't know where I'm going with that, just thought i'd point it out.


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## Tersanyus (Jun 27, 2004)

Guess no one read that I said Patchy looked to be alive after going thru that fence in the episode back when that event happened. Even though he was covered in blood he was still breathing after being pushed thru the sonic fence. You could clearly see his chest moving up and down after he was down on the ground. Though I will say it was on the far edge of the screen. That part of the picture may not be seen if most of you watch an SD feed of Lost as opposed to an HD feed.

Yeah maybe he died later and the island brought him back but I don't think he died at all. I think he was either injured fairly bad and healed quickly like most everyone on this island or it was all some kind of stunt.

Though it probably doesn't mean much now I don't think that fence is there to keep people out or kill them if they go through. It just stops smoke monsters from passing thru it.

I also think the shows creators are very careful on what we see on screen. Seeing Patchy breathe after going thru the fence was probably a clue that he was in fact still alive. But most everyong here thought he was dead. We now know that he survived the fence.

We know some things are messed up in production (date on paper with Paulo and Nikki at airport) but showing Patchy breathing wasn't a production error. I think 99% of what we see on screen is there for a reason with the other 1% being an error in production.

Here's something I forgot to mention a while back that has nothing to do with this episode. Hurley found that VW van and got it running right? Now think way back to episode 1 of this season. Right when 815 was crashing and all the "Others" are looking up there is a split second view of a van on the far right side of the screen (likely only visible on HD version.) Dig around and you will find a screenshot of it. Could this be the same VW van? True the one found with "Roger" looked old. More likely there are/were several such vans on this island.

Anyhow, great episode. Will be interesting to see how this plays out with 815 having been "found with no survivors."


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## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

Hmm... Timing seems off then.

The plane crashed on 9/22. If this is correct, then their current date should be 12/21. I show 12/21/2004 as a Tuesday but doesn't Juliet say into the recorder that it is Saturday morning?


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

tanstaafl said:


> Hmm... Timing seems off then.
> 
> The plane crashed on 9/22. If this is correct, then their current date should be 12/21. I show 12/21/2004 as a Tuesday but doesn't Juliet say into the recorder that it is Saturday morning?


Time has it's own rules on the island...


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

I say they are all CLONES!!


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Juliet asked Sun when she had last had sex. As anyone who has been pregnant (and a lot of people who haven't) knows, this has nothing to do with DOC. That is dated from the first day of the woman's last period. 

Was this just the writers' silly way of providing the audience exposition about the Jin/Sun/Jae situation?

Or was Juliet wanting to learn Sun's personal information for another reason?


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## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

OK If The Island has such super healing powers, Why did Boon die of his injuries?

Also Sawyer did not heal overnight from his Gun shot


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

scsiguy72 said:


> OK If The Island has such super healing powers, Why did Boon die of his injuries?
> 
> Also Sawyer did not heal overnight from his Gun shot


+1

And why did Ben have a malignant tumor on his spine?

And why does his spinal surgery not appear to be healing at an accelerated rate?

It's "super healing" powers seem to be selective.

Ben even alluded to this "selectiveness" when discussing the Island's "powers" with Locke in an earlier episode.

Ben seemed to want to study Locke to determine why the island "healed" his paralysis but did not heal his own (Ben's) tumor or speed his post surgery recovery.

Along this line of thinking: I wonder if Locke has grown a new kidney yet.


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

mqpickles said:


> Juliet asked Sun when she had last had sex. As anyone who has been pregnant (and a lot of people who haven't) knows, this has nothing to do with DOC. That is dated from the first day of the woman's last period.
> 
> Or was this just the writers' silly way of providing the audience exposition about the Jin/Sun/Jae situation?
> 
> Or was Juliet wanting to learn Sun's personal information for another reason?


I'll take door #1.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

mqpickles said:


> Juliet asked Sun when she had last had sex. As anyone who has been pregnant (and a lot of people who haven't) knows, this has nothing to do with DOC. That is dated from the first day of the woman's last period.
> 
> Was this just the writers' silly way of providing the audience exposition about the Jin/Sun/Jae situation?
> 
> Or was Juliet wanting to learn Sun's personal information for another reason?


Well, when one says "x weeks/months pregnant" that does refer to the first day of the woman's period but the date of conception (when sperm fertilizes egg) is the day of or maybe a day or so after the sexual encounter. Juliet was going to estimate the date of conception based on the size of the baby. Since women's cycles vary, it would make no sense to take into account the time between the beginning of menstruation and the actual conception.

Although I don't see how asking when they _last_ had sex would be the question to ask, unless she knew they hadn't done it since.

But what really made me think last night was... if she'd been on the island about 38 days before she got pregnant with Jin, shouldn't she have known it couldn't have been the bald dude's? I realize that that's assuming a regular cycle, but it seems like at least enough time that it would have prompted Juliet to ask "well didn't you have at least one period since you crashed on the island?" That's also assuming she was sleeping with baldie right up until they left. No wait, they had been in Sidney, so you have to add probably at least a week, so call it most likely 45 days between her last encounter with the bald guy and getting pregnant.

Unless the writers are REALLY messing with us and there was ANOTHER guy in Sidney that we'll first see her meeting in a hotel room with fully clothed, then a few episodes later naked in bed but not necessarily having sex with. Hell, it might have even been on the plane!


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

betts4 said:


> So if it's 90 days since the crash and Sun is 52 days Pregnant, then she got pregnant on day 38. Way back in season 1, around the time of "Deus Ex Machina".
> 
> I don't know where I'm going with that, just thought i'd point it out.


I don't remember it exactly, but there was definitely an episode when Jin came out of their tent in the morning shirtless and exchanged looks with Hurley. It was right after Sun and Jin had reconciled and given what Sun said in last night's episode and how their relationship was when they first arrived on the island, I think it's safe to say that it was their first time back in action in quite a while. Of course, that doesn't mean she didn't get pregnant as a result of that particular encounter, but I am curious which episode that was (I'm pretty sure it was before Jin left on the raft, so season 1) and where it falls in the timeline on the island.

Anyone else remember that?


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

yaddayaddayadda said:


> Not necessarily. If you find a pile of floating, burning plane wreckage in the middle of the ocean, and no living people anywhere near - it's pretty safe to assume that they are all dead. Dead people don't float initially.


Given the way she phrased it "they were all dead" I'd have to conclude that bodies were found. If she had just said "there were no survivors" that would have been more consistent with no bodies having been found and that they were simply presumed dead.

However, in that scenario there's always the possibility that they planted bodies or body parts as well.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Fish Man said:


> It's "super healing" powers seem to be selective.
> 
> Ben even alluded to this "selectiveness" when discussing the Island's "powers" with Locke in an earlier episode.
> 
> ...


Shouldn't you be 'fish BISCUIT man'? 

I hadn't thought about the kidney, but that's a good one. I also wondering why Sawyer took so long to heal. At least it seemed like awhile.

Maybe Patchy was just messing with their minds by saying that.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Fish Man said:


> IMHO, whatever organization is overseeing the "others", either Darhma or Widmore, staged *a* crash of flight 815, in the following sequence:
> 
> Ben and his people see the crash, they are genuinely surprised by it (they *DIDN'T* cause it or plan it). We've been shown the scene of them seeing it twice.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of that with one point. Dharma or Widmore may not have actually staged a "decoy" plane.

If they're so powerful they easily could have just got all the search & rescue teams to conclude that there were no survivors simply by pointing out the severity of the crash, the parts they did find in the ocean, the bodies they did find.

Dharma (or Widmore) just used it's global power and influence to influence the official conclusion that there was no survivors and search & rescue should give up.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

cwoody222 said:


> I agree with all of that with one point. Dharma or Widmore may not have actually staged a "decoy" plane.
> 
> If they're so powerful they easily could have just got all the search & rescue teams to conclude that there were no survivors simply by pointing out the severity of the crash, the parts they did find in the ocean, the bodies they did find.
> 
> Dharma (or Widmore) just used it's global power and influence to influence the official conclusion that there was no survivors and search & rescue should give up.


After I posted, I also considered that scenario. The more I think about it, the more I like it. (Simpler, more elegant.)


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I'm confused.

Last week we "learned" that Claire was sick back in season one but Juliette gave her some medicine which made her better and able to have the baby. But then last week she got sick again and Juliette saved her.

But now we learn that women who get pregnant OFF the island are OK. So why did Claire need Juliette's treatment during her kidnapping in season one. Surely they could tell she got knocked up pre-crash 

Was Juliette obviously lying? And can we then conclude her "saving her" last week was a ploy to get them to trust her? I forget the exact conversation at the end of last week's with Juliette and Ben... did they confirm then that they "planted" Claire's sickness?

Or was Juliette lying to Sun last night and WHERE the baby is conceived means nothing?!


And about the fact that the outside world thinks they're all dead... didn't we already hear that via the radio in Eko's brother's plane in season one? Did we later (season two?) learn that the people on the other end of the radio were Others? I vaguely remember something like that? Oh wait... was it that the people on the other end of the radio were the Tailies and they WERE saying "we are the survivors"?

So in season one some of us hear "there were no survivors" (when we think it's being said by people off-island) then in season two the writers confirm for us, thru the Tailies, that the actual phrase was "we are the survivors" and the in season three we do, in fact, learn that off-island folks think there are no survivors? Is that right? Sheesh!


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

cwoody222 said:


> Was Juliette obviously lying? And can we then conclude her "saving her" last week was a ploy to get them to trust her? I forget the exact conversation at the end of last week's with Juliette and Ben... did they confirm then that they "planted" Claire's sickness?


Exactly:

Ben and Juliet were talking, Ben says: "The implant in Claire has been activated."

Later in the conversation he says, "A medical kit has been left at Ethen's old drop point.", and then something about winning their trust by "saving" Claire.



> And about the fact that the outside world thinks they're all dead... didn't we already hear that via the radio in Eko's brother's plane in season one? Did we later (season two?) learn that the people on the other end of the radio were Others? I vaguely remember something like that? Oh wait... was it that the people on the other end of the radio were the Tailies and they WERE saying "we are the survivors"?


We learned in the episode "The Other 48 Days" that the voice Boone heard on the radio was Bernard, who had found a walkie-talkie in a Dharma "hatch" saying, "*We're* the survivors of flight 815!"



> So in season one some of us hear "there were no survivors" (when we think it's being said by people off-island) then in season two the writers confirm for us, thru the Tailies, that the actual phrase was "we are the survivors" and the in season three we do, in fact, learn that off-island folks think there are no survivors? Is that right? Sheesh!


While the season one phrase was "We're...", and it came from Bernard, it makes perfect since that Dharma (or Widmore, or whoever is the "parent company" of the "others") would be highly motivated for the rest of the world to think there were no survivors of the crash. That way, they have a whole bunch of test subjects _that the outside world thinks are dead!_ It's perfect for them!

I'm just about certain that the "parent organization" of the others made certain that the outside world *believes* there were no survivors. They can't risk a search party coming.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

cwoody222 said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> Last week we "learned" that Claire was sick back in season one but Juliette gave her some medicine which made her better and able to have the baby. But then last week she got sick again and Juliette saved her.
> 
> But now we learn that women who get pregnant OFF the island are OK. So why did Claire need Juliette's treatment during her kidnapping in season one.


We learned that they don't necessarily die, but I don't recall them saying that there were no complications at all.

In any case, the second time around was clearly caused by the implant.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Fish Man said:


> Exactly:
> 
> Ben and Juliet were talking, Ben says: "The implant in Claire has been activated."
> 
> ...


So, if Widmore is the parent, shouldn't somebody there notice that Penny Widmore is operating a search mission of a scale that most small countries couldn't pull off, and consider the possibility that she's looking for her old boyfriend who happens to be on that island?


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> So, if Widmore is the parent, shouldn't somebody there notice that Penny Widmore is operating a search mission of a scale that most small countries couldn't pull off, and consider the possibility that she's looking for her old boyfriend who happens to be on that island?


Here's my thoughts on that:

Penny's father is deeply involved with the others. Either Widmore and Darhma are affiliated, or they are rivals, and Widmore has kicked Darhma off the island and replaced them with their own people.

I tend to favor the "rival" theory as it would explain the others apparently not appreciating the importance of the "numbers" hatch and entering the numbers. People had continued to do it for so long after the ouster of Dharma out of sheer luck.

But I digress....

Here's my theory about Penny's involvement:

Her father is deeply involved with the "others". Probably, he's their ultimate leader.

Penny knows about the existence of the island, but not certain details, such as its location.

Desmond crashes on the island. Penny's father, who we know to be a cold, cruel, heartless bastard, taunts Penny: "You'll never guess who ended up on *MY* island! Your low-life good-for-nothing boyfriend!"

Penny, who has quite the financial resources herself, initiates a search.

Since Penny knows how her father operates, she'd tend to know how to hide what *she's doing* from him, and his organization.

The "gap" in this theory is that Penny seemed to know that the island could be located by searching for magnetic field anomalies. Yet, the others seemed to be ignorant of the importance of the "numbers" hatch.

Perhaps Widmore and the others knew magnetic anomalies emanated from the island (other "button-pushing close calls" in the past) but did not know the cause.


----------



## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

On Patches coming back from the dead:

Don't forget the Jack's father is up and walking about some where on the island after being dead in his coffin.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Squeak said:


> On Patches coming back from the dead:
> 
> Don't forget the Jack's father is up and walking about some where on the island after being dead in his coffin.


Or that was Jack's imagination.


----------



## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Squeak said:


> On Patches coming back from the dead:
> 
> Don't forget the Jack's father is up and walking about some where on the island after being dead in his coffin.





Spoiler



The producers have confirmed on the Official LOST Podcast that Jack's Dad is deader than dead. As Fish Man said, it had to have been Jack's imagination.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> But what really made me think last night was... if she'd been on the island about 38 days before she got pregnant with Jin, shouldn't she have known it couldn't have been the bald dude's? I realize that that's assuming a regular cycle, but it seems like at least enough time that it would have prompted Juliet to ask "well didn't you have at least one period since you crashed on the island?" That's also assuming she was sleeping with baldie right up until they left. No wait, they had been in Sidney, so you have to add probably at least a week, so call it most likely 45 days between her last encounter with the bald guy and getting pregnant.


I raised this *exact* point (almost down to letter) with my friends last night and got an earful from the women in the group. Apparently (and this was news to me) women can continue to menstruate after they're pregnant, so she wouldn't have known. Still, I think that Sun just wasn't thinking and that there was no way it could have been bald dude's. Juliette still should have had the presence of mind to ask about it though...90+ days is a long time.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

mqpickles said:


> Juliet asked Sun when she had last had sex. As anyone who has been pregnant (and a lot of people who haven't) knows, this has nothing to do with DOC. That is dated from the first day of the woman's last period.
> 
> Was this just the writers' silly way of providing the audience exposition about the Jin/Sun/Jae situation?
> 
> Or was Juliet wanting to learn Sun's personal information for another reason?


Maybe the island has an effect on women's menstrual cycles, and if so she would know that asking that question is useless...that would also explain why women don't seem too worried about the tampon supply on the island.


----------



## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

unicorngoddess said:


> Maybe the island has an effect on women's menstrual cycles, and if so she would know that asking that question is useless...that would also explain why women don't seem too worried about the tampon supply on the island.


Well, Juliet said that it had an effect on sperm production, so it wouldnt be out of the question if it affected the women too.

And if the sperm levels are 5x, does that mean that all the guys are walking around with boners the whole time???


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

scottykempf said:


> And if the sperm levels are 5x, does that mean that all the guys are walking around with boners the whole time???


  
Why would it mean that? Erections are not caused by sperm count.


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> Maybe the island has an effect on women's menstrual cycles, and if so she would know that asking that question is useless...that would also explain why women don't seem too worried about the tampon supply on the island.


I am a guy, so I don't know what I am talking about in regards to this, but...

I would also think that things like stress, change of diet, sleep habits, and such could also have an effect on a woman's menstrual cycle.

Am I wrong?


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> Why would it mean that? Erections are not caused by sperm count.


Maybe Scotty thinks they are caused by filling up with fluid (other than blood), like a water hose.


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

I thought this was a pretty good episode, but I still get the feeling the writers don't have a very good arc going. So many crazy inconsistencies that it seems unlikely they will all tie together in a plausible manner.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

markz said:


> I am a guy, so I don't know what I am talking about in regards to this, but...
> 
> I would also think that things like stress, change of diet, sleep habits, and such could also have an effect on a woman's menstrual cycle.
> 
> Am I wrong?


Diet, stress, abnormal behavior (living on a beach) would all do that. Wonder how many more pregnancy tests there are?


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

hapdrastic said:


> I raised this *exact* point (almost down to letter) with my friends last night and got an earful from the women in the group. Apparently (and this was news to me) women can continue to menstruate after they're pregnant, so she wouldn't have known. Still, I think that Sun just wasn't thinking and that there was no way it could have been bald dude's. Juliette still should have had the presence of mind to ask about it though...90+ days is a long time.


Yeah, I knew that that was possible but I figured (and still do) that it's pretty rare. I've known or known of enough women taking their period starting as a pretty sure sign (as good news or bad) that they're not pregnant. None of them ever said "I'm _probably_ not pregnant." It just doesn't make sense that neither of them brought it up at all.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

unicorngoddess said:


> Maybe the island has an effect on women's menstrual cycles, and if so she would know that asking that question is useless...that would also explain why women don't seem too worried about the tampon supply on the island.


Even if it threw off the timing some, I think it would have been at least a pretty good indicator if she'd had a period at all since she'd been on the island, that the baby was Jin's. So yeah, not nearly as useful as the ultrasound, but far from useless.

I suspect that tampons were included in the big supply drops.

Actually, if the question being referred to was when they'd last had sex, that is still useless. The answer could have been the night before or that morning or a week ago.


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## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

pcguru83 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The producers have confirmed on the Official LOST Podcast that Jack's Dad is deader than dead. As Fish Man said, it had to have been Jack's imagination.


Who is to say that Patches is not deader than dead? Why can't the two be 'resurrected' via the same mechanism.


----------



## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

markz said:


> Maybe Scotty thinks they are caused by filling up with fluid (other than blood), like a water hose.


Well, no, but they do have to look at Kate all the time!!!!


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

scottykempf said:


> Well, no, but they do have to look at Kate all the time!!!!


That would do it for me!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I would think that if Sun were more than 90 days pregnant, vs. only 53 days, it should have been fairly obvious to her. She mentioned that she had been having morning sickness, but it had gone away. Apparently she didn't have it for the first month on the island. There are several other issues with this as well. Had Juliet said that she was 80 days pregnant, and it was just going to be a difference of a couple of weeks, that's not a big difference, but when we're talking about 40+ days, that seems pretty easy to figure out.


----------



## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

Squeak said:


> Who is to say that Patches is not deader than dead? Why can't the two be 'resurrected' via the same mechanism.


Patchy actually physically manipulated the environment last night. Did field surgery on Parachute Girl. Jack's dad never did that.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> So the others faked the plane crash somehow? I guess they faked dental records too or what? Cloning?


As discussed earlier, they appear to have enough clout to have pressured (blackmailed, whatever) the agencies searching for the plane to call off the search and lie about having found "conclusive evidence" of no survivors.

This would be easier than faking dental records, finding identical looking dead bodies, etc.

Of course, when planes crash in the ocean, often nothing more than fragments of body parts are found. (Although, I suppose DNA tests could be done to identify such parts.)

The others' "parent organization" could also have simply presented the crash investigators with a few pieces of the plane that did, in fact, land in the water and a few bodies of passengers that did, in fact, land in the water and die.

Then, they simply would have to pay off, or blackmail, the investigators to claim that the plane went down in open water and these were the only bodies and parts of the plane found. If the story was that the plane went down in deep open water, the world would accept that explanation.


----------



## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

BrandonRe said:


> Patchy actually physically manipulated the environment last night. Did field surgery on Parachute Girl. Jack's dad never did that.


jack's dad can't do that? or we haven't SEEN him do that?


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

scottykempf said:


> ....And if the sperm levels are 5x, does that mean that all the guys are walking around with boners the whole time???


WHAT?! How does one thing affect the other? Did I miss something in my sex ed class 40 years ago?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

devdogaz said:


> I would think that if Sun were more than 90 days pregnant, vs. only 53 days, it should have been fairly obvious to her. She mentioned that she had been having morning sickness, but it had gone away. Apparently she didn't have it for the first month on the island. There are several other issues with this as well. Had Juliet said that she was 80 days pregnant, and it was just going to be a difference of a couple of weeks, that's not a big difference, but when we're talking about 40+ days, that seems pretty easy to figure out.


One would think. Although, knowing that Jin was infertile was probably screwing wither her head. It shouldn't have been possible, so she is considering other just as unlikely scenarios.

Just to figure out the timeline here, as best as possible...I know they said 90 days on the island, but Lostpedia is tracking and cross referencing days and seems to think the precise number is 87 at the time of the ultrasound. It's possible that someone would round off or not know to the exact day, so I'm going with 87.

Conception occurred on approximately Day 34. (on the island).

Sun took the pregnancy test on day 60.

So that's almost 4 weeks when she figured out something was up.


----------



## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

Squeak said:


> jack's dad can't do that? or we haven't SEEN him do that?


We haven't seen him do that, and we also have not seen anything which would indicate he can. That, along with the "known" regenerative/healing powers of the island lead me to believe that we are dealing with 2 different situations.


----------



## Sromkie (Aug 15, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Diet, stress, abnormal behavior (living on a beach) would all do that. Wonder how many more pregnancy tests there are?


 I am going with this being the cause of her uncertainty. No one was eating well when they first landed, and they were all highly stressed. She probably missed a cycle because of that. Once they were able to handle feeding themselves and the stress plateaued, she got pregnant. So, not being sure who the father is sounds reasonable to me. The only factor that should have still given her some indication was the morning sickness. But, then again, she was probably feeling pretty pretty awful for a while after the crash, too.



jeff125va said:


> Given the way she phrased it "they were all dead" I'd have to conclude that bodies were found. If she had just said "there were no survivors" that would have been more consistent with no bodies having been found and that they were simply presumed dead.
> 
> However, in that scenario there's always the possibility that they planted bodies or body parts as well.


 There is also the possibility that she just chose poor wording. I mean, she was in a lot of pain and nearly died. I doubt she was choosing her words THAT carefully.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

scottykempf said:


> Well, Juliet said that it had an effect on sperm production, so it wouldnt be out of the question if it affected the women too.


It DOES affect women too. It kills 'em dead by the middle of the second trimester.
So should Sun expect to deliver the child prematurely?


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> As discussed earlier, they appear to have enough clout to have pressured (blackmailed, whatever) the agencies searching for the plane to call off the search and lie about having found "conclusive evidence" of no survivors.
> 
> This would be easier than faking dental records, finding identical looking dead bodies, etc.


You are right, that would be easier (I'm not sure what you meant by earlier though - another thread or earlier in this one?).

What were the exact words that the new lady said? I thought she said something about finding bodies, but I could be mistaken.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I think the biggest clue that it's not purgatory, repeat NOT PURGATORY, is that the Others have clearly left the island on their own several times.

Richard was seen in the US several times and so was Ethan -recruiting Juliette. 

I don't think the sonar-fence thing was ever intended to keep out or kill humans. Juliette said, referring to the Smoke Monster, "We don't know what it is, but it doesn't like our fence.".

Seems to me, the fence could have been build (by the Dharma people?), to keep out Smokey.

I don't think it was ever intended to kill humans. On a desert island in the middle of nowhere, that supposedly is next to impossible to find, how many visitors would you expect to get on a daily basis?

It probably just stuns humans. Obviously he bled out of his ears, so it did harm him, but nobody went to check on him fearing for their own safety. Maybe that's why there were no animals around? Or it only disrupts brain waves? Sensory overload to shut down the brain. Whatever science-fiction-y explanation you want. 

Maybe the only reason Mikhail said "I already died once this week" is because the Losties assumed he was dead when they pushed him through it. 

He knew that people survive the fence, but appear to be dead for awhile. which is why he thanked Locke for pushing him through. Not thank you for killing me, but thank you for letting me go.

He assumed the Losties would think he was dead and leave him there. Which they did.

Though I do wish he would wash his ears. They were still filled with blood.


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

betts4 said:


> I think the biggest clue that it's not purgatory, repeat NOT PURGATORY, is that the Others have clearly left the island on their own several times.
> 
> Richard was seen in the US several times and so was Ethan -recruiting Juliette.


How do you know the Others aren't angels?


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Newest 'Other:'


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## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

hefe said:


> Just to figure out the timeline here, as best as possible...I know they said 90 days on the island, but Lostpedia is tracking and cross referencing days and seems to think the precise number is 87 at the time of the ultrasound. It's possible that someone would round off or not know to the exact day, so I'm going with 87.


You're probably right. Juliet said the crash was 90 days ago but in her recorded message to Ben she said it was Saturday.

The plane crashed on 9/22/2004 so 90 days later would be 12/21/2004, which was a Tuesday. But, 12/18/2004 was a Saturday and was 87 days after the crash. So, assuming Juliet was accurate with her Saturday statement, 87 days is probably correct.


----------



## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Or that was Jack's imagination.


Or the smoke monster.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Bananfish said:


> How do you know the Others aren't angels?


Dharma's Angels with Ben as Bosley? Or maybe that should be Jacobs Angels, he is more the Charlie type. Out of sight, mysterious yet all encompassing. I like this!


----------



## TiMo Tim (Jul 20, 2001)

betts4 said:


> Dharma's Angels with Ben as Bosley? Or maybe that should be Jacobs Angels, he is more the Charlie type. Out of sight, mysterious yet all encompassing. I like this!


And as more proof, Angel Cheryl Ladd was in Millennium, where they pulled plane crash survivors off the crashed planes to repopulate a future world.

Still don't believe it??? Cheryl Ladd was recently seen in Las Vegas with Marsha Thomason, who just recently arrived on the island via helicopter. And then there's James Caan, who's married to Cheryl Ladd. And we know he's played a lot of shady characters-- it's entirely possible that Caan is Jacob.

But then there's Andy Dick's obsession with James Caan (and vice versa) on Newsradio. I still haven't figured out where Andy Dick fits in all of this.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

cwoody222 said:


> Or was Juliette lying to Sun last night and WHERE the baby is conceived means nothing?!


She pointed it out to Ben via the tape recorder. I think that tells us that it's a relevant factor.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> As discussed earlier, they appear to have enough clout to have pressured (blackmailed, whatever) the agencies searching for the plane to call off the search and lie about having found "conclusive evidence" of no survivors.
> 
> This would be easier than faking dental records, finding identical looking dead bodies, etc.
> 
> ...


I like this theory a lot better than a fake 2nd plane crash. Making the part number and serial numbers match the original 815 flight would be very difficult. Best to stay close to the truth and use parts and bodies from the actual wreck.

And remember KAL 007, a 747 shot down in 1983? They found a couple of bodies, and extremely little wreckage. So it's possible.


----------



## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> Maybe the island has an effect on women's menstrual cycles, and if so she would know that asking that question is useless...that would also explain why women don't seem too worried about the tampon supply on the island.


But they sure do worry about makeup!


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Did anyone question Mikhail's running into Desmond et al? Just before he showed up they were having quite the heated argument. You'd think he would have heard them and steered clear; instead he ran right out of the jungle, making as much noise as possible. I think he clearly wanted to *get caught*, but why? Is it that the Others don't want Naomi to die (maybe she's pregnant as well ? 

Also, Juliet seemed really, genuinely happy seeing/hearing the baby. Then she said she hated Ben, with no one around -- she was not conning anyone at that time. It's pretty clear that she's going along with Ben's plan but not because she's loyal to him or the Others. She's good at what she's become (a master manipulator) but she's not happy about it. She'd rather get back to the outside world where she can deliver good news instead of bad.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

With their penchant for referencing Steven King, does anyone think that the Island has restorative powers similar to Pet Cemetery?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> After I posted, I also considered that scenario. The more I think about it, the more I like it. (Simpler, more elegant.)


Yep.

Plane goes missing.

90 days pass, nothing is found, no one on the plane is ever seen again.

Most of the general public would have seen enough news to say "there were no survivors".

It doesn't take some elaborate (and easy to prove false) staging of a major plane crash.

Now if Walt and Michael show up in civilization again, we have issues.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

wprager said:


> Did anyone question Mikhail's running into Desmond et al? Just before he showed up they were having quite the heated argument. You'd think he would have heard them and steered clear; instead he ran right out of the jungle, making as much noise as possible. I think he clearly wanted to *get caught*, but why? Is it that the Others don't want Naomi to die (maybe she's pregnant as well ?


Or maybe he figured that only an other would have a flare gun.


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## thedudeabides (Aug 7, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> Or maybe he figured that only an other would have a flare gun.


Agreed. I think its pretty simple - Mikhail almost dies as a result of the sonic fence (ear drums burst, he has a seizure, who knows). He wakes up a few days later to find that the houses are abandoned. He has no idea where the Others are and goes looking for them. He sees a flare gun (which the Losties shouldn't have) and figures its one of his people, so he runs to find them. He bursts onto Desmond et. al. instead. End of story.

By the way, I'm personally thrilled Mikhail is still alive. He's an awesome character and one I'm glad we'll see more of (maybe even getting a backstory).


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

Here's a question: since eye-patch faked his own death, could the women he "shot" just before Locke blew up the house also be a fake? Maybe she'll turn up again at some point.


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## ChrisNJ (Mar 7, 2007)

TiMo Tim said:


> And as more proof, Angel Cheryl Ladd was in Millennium, where they pulled plane crash survivors off the crashed planes to repopulate a future world.
> 
> Still don't believe it??? Cheryl Ladd was recently seen in Las Vegas with Marsha Thomason, who just recently arrived on the island via helicopter. And then there's James Caan, who's married to Cheryl Ladd. And we know he's played a lot of shady characters-- it's entirely possible that Caan is Jacob.
> 
> But then there's Andy Dick's obsession with James Caan (and vice versa) on Newsradio. I still haven't figured out where Andy Dick fits in all of this.


I think you nailed it! Look at the runtime for Millennium --- 108 minutes!


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I think the whole 87 vs 90 days thing can just be explained as Juilet roughly estimating how many days they've been there. From September to December is 3 months, three months is roughly 90 days.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

wprager said:


> Did anyone question Mikhail's running into Desmond et al? Just before he showed up they were having quite the heated argument. You'd think he would have heard them and steered clear; instead he ran right out of the jungle, making as much noise as possible. I think he clearly wanted to *get caught*, but why? Is it that the Others don't want Naomi to die (maybe she's pregnant as well ?


I recall earlier in the thread someone mentioning that when Naomi and Patchy are talking at the end in (Portuguese? Russian?) that she didn't actually say "Thank you for saving my life", but instead something more conspiratorial. If that's the case, then he was running to her crash site to pick her up, because he knew she was coming and thought the flare gun was hers - I don't think he thought it was the Others or the Losties.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

When Naomi landed, she spoke several languages; Spanish, Portugese, Russion perhaps. THEN English when she spoke to Hurley later.

Russeau did the same thing when she captured Sayid. She cycled through 3 or 4 languages before she finally landed on English.

I'm not sure yet if this is an important connection, coincidence, or a wink by the producers.

I'm also starting to lean on alternate universe here. In our universe (the one Naomi just came from), 815 crashed and there were no survivors. In THIS universe, (the "island" universe), the plane crashed and there's an odd island. The Others were able to freely move between universes until Desmond did his thing.

That's not set in stone in my mind though.

Greg


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

hapdrastic said:


> I recall earlier in the thread someone mentioning that when Naomi and Patchy are talking at the end in (Portuguese? Russian?) that she didn't actually say "Thank you for saving my life", but instead something more conspiratorial. If that's the case, then he was running to her crash site to pick her up, because he knew she was coming and thought the flare gun was hers - I don't think he thought it was the Others or the Losties.


Here is what LostPedia shows the conversation to be:

"Me estoy muriendo" is Spanish for "I am dying" (from the captions).

"Aiutami sto morendo" is Italian for "Help me I'm dying" (from the captions; partially incorrect, but comprehensible).

She mutters in an "asian language" (from the captions) which Jin claims is Chinese, not Korean. "出了什么事?(chu le shen me shi)" is Chinese for "What happened?" or "What's going on?".

After Mikhail and Desmond treat Naomi's wound, she says something in Portuguese not spelled out in the captions. It is not "Thank you" as Mikhail claims. Instead, it sounds like "Eu não estou só" which is Portuguese (spoken with a Brazilian accent) for "I am not alone." The "Ardil-22" book is also Portuguese.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

I am still confused why the beach people have not opted to move to the village or the other hatch.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

mwhip said:


> I am still confused why the beach people have not opted to move to the village or the other hatch.


I was wondering the same thing (about the village).


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

mwhip said:


> I am still confused why the beach people have not opted to move to the village or the other hatch.


Because they have every reason to believe the Others are coming back?


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I don't have a photographic memory but didn't they burn the bodies in the plane fuselage in one of the earlier episodes? Didn't that section wind up going out to sea?

Given how often we have to suspend reality is it that much of a reach to think some of that wreckage could have wound up being discovered? Small amount of wreckage with some badly burned bodies would certainly imply no survivors.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

mwhip said:


> I am still confused why the beach people have not opted to move to the village or the other hatch.


Maybe they're stilling waiting to be rescued. Same reason they didn't want to leave the beach in season 1.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> Maybe they're stilling waiting to be rescued. Same reason they didn't want to leave the beach in season 1.


Yeah, 90 days in I might too stick near the beach. Plus Tom Hanks stuck near the beach in Castaway, which happened to be one of the in-flight movies on flight 815 from Sydney.

And they're established there. Everyone hates moving, right? 

Fishing is there too. Plus the hatch, village, etc. are kinda creepy and you might fear the others returning at any point.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Fishing is there too.


Ding ding ding.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

unicorngoddess said:


> I think the whole 87 vs 90 days thing can just be explained as Juilet roughly estimating how many days they've been there. From September to December is 3 months, three months is roughly 90 days.


Plus, didn't she say to Sun (while they were walking toward the hatch) that the device could calculate the age of the fetus to within a few days? She even mentioned a margin of error (IIRC).


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## Supfreak26 (Dec 12, 2003)

mwhip said:


> I am still confused why the beach people have not opted to move to the village or the other hatch.


Yeah I don't get this either. That's the first thing I would've thought of when leaving the village to go back to the other losties. Go pick up everyone and bring them back.

Just one of the few things that have aggravated me lately about the show. And I mean that as a compliment. Last fall it would've been one of the MANY things that aggravate me. 

I like that they are asking questions and answering some as well. It really pushes the story along nicely and I'm REALLY enjoying Lost again.


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## Supfreak26 (Dec 12, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Yeah, 90 days in I might too stick near the beach. Plus Tom Hanks stuck near the beach in Castaway, which happened to be one of the in-flight movies on flight 815 from Sydney.
> 
> And they're established there. Everyone hates moving, right?
> 
> Fishing is there too. Plus the hatch, village, etc. are kinda creepy and you might fear the others returning at any point.


I don't care how established I am. If it comes down to living in a hut or having a nice bed and solid shelter, I'm choosing the bed.

And there is fishing there too. Remember that the sub was right off the dock right where the village was. Even if it's a short walk, the advantages far outweigh sleeping in a hut.

As for the Others coming back, I'd take my chances. With the entire Losties tribe staying in the village, I'd feel pretty safe. Safety in numbers.

The fact that they haven't even addressed this idea is incredibly stupid on the writer's part.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Ding ding ding.


I got a better one. It's all about building and maintaining sets and locations.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

hefe said:


> I got a better one. It's all about building and maintaining sets and locations.


DING DING DING!!!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

A few more posts about it and they'll address it on the show.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> A few more posts about it and they'll address it on the show.


Either have them move in, or have the village destroyed by a mysterious explosion. They're flipping a coin now to decide which.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Supfreak26 said:


> Yeah I don't get this either. That's the first thing I would've thought of when leaving the village to go back to the other losties. Go pick up everyone and bring them back.
> 
> Just one of the few things that have aggravated me lately about the show. And I mean that as a compliment. Last fall it would've been one of the MANY things that aggravate me.
> 
> I like that they are asking questions and answering some as well. It really pushes the story along nicely and I'm REALLY enjoying Lost again.


I would much rather have a bed with matress and pillows instead of sleeping on the sand. Or at least go raid the village and take that stuff if you are afraid they are coming back.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

hefe said:


> I got a better one. It's all about building and maintaining sets and locations.


Considering that the Others' Village has been shown a couple of times now and will most likely play a significant part later on, don't you think they've got that set built and it's being maintained already? Do you think they're rebuilding it every time they need to shoot a scene there?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

devdogaz said:


> Considering that the Others' Village has been shown a couple of times now and will most likely play a significant part later on, don't you think they've got that set built and it's being maintained already? Do you think they're rebuilding it every time they need to shoot a scene there?


And who says somebody doesn't REALLY live in the Village on the island in Hawaii when they're not shooting scenes?


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Here's a thought. The way Patchy came running out of the forest, and the way he seemed to know all the languages to communicate with the parachutist (edit:Naomi), is it possible that she was Patchy's 'replacement'. Just as the guy entering the numbers thought that Desmond was his replacement, perhaps Patchy is expected to be relieved of his duty since the people on the island think he's dead. He sees the flair, think it's his replacement who's due to arrive via helicopter and runs right into the boys tending to their new patient.

It would be very 'other-like' to have a picture of one of the Losties as a decepetion if caught.

Just a thought....

Doug


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Naomi, not Nadia. No Russian was spoken (not even by Mikhail, at least not very well). What Naomi said in Portuguese should have been spoilerized; although the information *was* available in the episode, it was in Portuguese. And with a Brazilian accent. And spoken by someone with a punctured lung -- in other words, I don't think we were meant to know what she said yet, only to suspect that Mikhail lied. 

Now, if Desmond could only understand Portuguese (with a Brazilian accent) you would see him running through the jungle yelling "Pennnnnyyyyyy!"


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Oh yeah, the punctured lung. Hurley sure has overcome his tendency at the sight of blood to become, um... hurrrrrlly. Maybe THAT'S where his nickname comes from. Hurrrrrrl.

Greg


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> the parachutist (Nadia?)


Nadia is Sayid's girlfriend from Iraq.


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## UTV2TiVo (Feb 2, 2005)

thedudeabides said:


> By the way, I'm personally thrilled Mikhail is still alive. He's an awesome character and one I'm glad we'll see more of (maybe even getting a backstory).


Have any 'others' ever had a back story other than Julia?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> Yeah, 90 days in I might too stick near the beach. Plus Tom Hanks stuck near the beach in Castaway, which happened to be one of the in-flight movies on flight 815 from Sydney.


You know, it's not Castaway. It's Cast Away. Put's a whole different take on the movie, don't you think?


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## UTV2TiVo (Feb 2, 2005)

gchance said:


> When Naomi landed, she spoke several languages; Spanish, Portugese, Russion perhaps. THEN English when she spoke to Hurley later.
> 
> Russeau did the same thing when she captured Sayid. She cycled through 3 or 4 languages before she finally landed on English.
> 
> Greg


I never uinderstood either of these instances. It makes sense to try out different languages but I think in both cases they were be asked questions in English, so wouldn't they know immediately to respond in English?


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Well, this episode resurrected my theory that Naomi is somehow more connected with the Others than she is with Penelope. Again, it was not until well after the crash of 815 that the Others even knew Desmond's identity -- and perhaps now the Others' "organization" has compiled a dossier on him, but they have to use new means to get information to and from the island.

We also need to assume that the Others still have Desmond's boat -- and, if what they told Michael was true, they can still leave the island. Perhaps returning is indeed impossible without some kind of beacon (the cable?) and that's why the helicopter crashed...there's an extremely narrow "approach" to the island.

Finally, an alternate theory on Juliette. Doesn't she have incentive to lie to Ben (and Sun) about where he baby is conceived? After all, if Sun survives and Ben thinks the baby was conceived on the island, then he will finally let her leave....her work being done?

I'm also curious as to how Calamity Jane...er, Juliette's sister, got pregnant. Was it artificial or is there a dad in the picture? Have the writers said that the "Male" medical records were a goof?

Desmond said "By my count, you (the Lostaways) have killed more of them (the Others) than they have of you." While technically true, the only premeditated murders were by Ethan and Goodwin. A "self-defense" argument could be made for just about every killing of an Other by a Lostaway.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

UTV2TiVo said:


> I never uinderstood either of these instances. It makes sense to try out different languages but I think in both cases they were be asked questions in English, so wouldn't they know immediately to respond in English?


My thoughts too.

Also, what a lame lie by Patchy. Don't many people know "thank you" in many languages. I'm no brainiac but I know in Portuguese it's "Obrigado" or something, which wasn't at all what she said. And I knew she was speaking Spanish or Portuguese.

I think Desmond's pretty bright. I thought he'd catch that and say "Uh, that's not what she said".

Now I realize you can say "thank you" in different ways. I could say "I really do appreciate all your help" and someone knowing "thank you" in English wouldn't have picked that up.

But still... I think it could have been done better.


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

danplaysbass said:


> I enjoyed the fight between Mikhail and Jin. Jin kicks butt!!


Yes, he (Jin) is now the answer to the question, "Which "Lostie" would you want as a *bodyguard*?"
(Before, my answer was Sayid) 



stevieleej said:


> I find myself needing to keep the Others and Dharma separate. Dharma could have caused the original flight 815 crash. The also could have staged a fake crash site showing that no one survived.
> 
> The Others appeared very surprised when 815 crashed on the island. It didn't look like they were prepared for it or expecting it.


I agree, but I think Dharma is gone, the "Others" just use what they left behind.



Paperboy2003 said:


> With their penchant for referencing Steven King, does anyone think that the Island has restorative powers similar to Pet Cemetery?


*Yes.*



UTV2TiVo said:


> I never uinderstood either of these instances. It makes sense to try out different languages but I think in both cases they were be asked questions in English, so wouldn't they know immediately to respond in English?


You are correct...If you need to cycle through languages, *start* with English, it's most likely on the playlist.
(Unless you know you are in China)


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

At one point wasn't Naomi speaking an oriental language that Jin confirmed was NOT Korean. So what is her language count up to, four or five? 

I thought for sure when Sun figured out who she was, that Jin's mother was dead. She must not be part of the family yet. He is however. this revelation makes her position indefensible. She made him incur the debt that he is paying off to her father. She plans on leaving him because of who he has become, when it is really her fault that he was forced to change.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> You know, it's not Castaway. It's Cast Away. Put's a whole different take on the movie, don't you think?


Castaway is a movie with Oliver Reed & Amanda Donohoe. Both of them are nude in the movie, but I think Amanda Donohoe just figured hey, it's hot on this island so I think I'll just be naked for 45 minutes out of a 90-minute movie. Heck, other than the fact that they're on an island, I forget what it was about.



Greg


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

tanstaafl said:


> DHARMA didn't arrange the plane crash.
> 
> The plane's radios malfunctioned and they turned towards Fiji. This resulted in their being in the vicinity of the Island when Desmond was late pushing the button and the magnetic discharge caused the plane to break up and crash. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.


How do you explain Hurley's numbers being on the hatch?

There's been all this discussion about how the fake crash was planted to keep people away, but someone mentioned a better question earlier--why? If you can't sail onto the island except by submarine, what are they worried about? Rescue parties don't usually come by sub. 

Suppose you were a Lostie. You haven't heard podcasts or seen backstories. You survive a crash miraculously and then all these weird things happen that defy the laws of physics. How hard would it be the convince you that you're dead?

And finally, was anyone else screaming at Sun to follow Juliet then she went back into the hatch? Such a lame excuse.


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## bigbrihaze (Jan 19, 2004)

Amnesia said:


> I thought that it was pretty well established that Desmond caused 815 to crash by neglecting the machine...


Ok, I haven't posted before, but have been reading for quite a while.

I haven't seen this mentioned before (very possible I missed it), but isn't it possible this "magic box" is real. It's not exactly a far fetched idea considering the other paranormal things that we have witnessed. If Ben knew he had a tumor and wished for a Neurosurgeon, it's no coincidence a Neurosurgeon (Jack) falls from the sky.

We know the Losties are connected in various ways.....and nothing is ever free, and rarely comes easy. Maybe wishing for something (Man from Tallahassee, surgeon, Walt's comic book manifestations) has many stings, and people, attached to it.

I really don't put to much into the Purgatory idea they are alluding to. If this were true, revealing that twist right now would be pretty foolish. They have at least one more season to write for....

We will not get the full answer until the VERY last episode...

Ok, my 2 pennies....

Brian


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## lodica1967 (Aug 5, 2003)

Will having an abortion let Sun live? I would think this would be a "no brainer". Both Mom and baby are going to die in 2 months anyway. Why not abort and give Sun a chance? 

There are two doctors on the Island and a stocked clinic, it must be possible to do. I know it's a Miracle conception and all but come on, it's life or death! Why would you risk it?


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## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> How do you explain Hurley's numbers being on the hatch?


Why they bothered to engrave them on the side of the hatch, I don't know. But the numbers are...


Spoiler



...the core values from the Valenzetti equations. Since the DHARMA Initiative projects on the Island were set up, at least in part, with the goal of changing said core values (and thus insuring the survival of the human race) I assume that someone with DHARMA simply engraved them there.

And the producers have confirmed that the Numbers being the Valenzetti core values is canon. They have left open the question of do the Numbers have powers on the Island and, if so, why.


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## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> And finally, was anyone else screaming at Sun to follow Juliet then she went back into the hatch? Such a lame excuse.


We can't be sure she didn't in the end. She did stop and had a look about her face that said to me that she might indeed follow her back in. As a matter of fact, I thought Juliet knew and was about to say something to Sun when she said "I hate you" to Ben with the recorder off.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Like everyone else, I have a theory. But only partially.

I don't know if this is spoiler-esque. I think not only because up to this point, everything I'm about to say is already known.

I subscribe to the theory that this whole "Lost" world revolves around some sort of time travel/time rift/alternate timeline.

I keep reading all these posts on various sites about how people think that the Others or Dharma "staged" a fake crash, or staged the wreckage, or how it's a giant conspiracy. And most of this is based off of the ending of D.O.C.

I don't believe that at all. First off, folks, this is Lost. The entire thing, IMO, is going to be explained using Science Fiction. What leads me to this are several things, but mostly, I think that there might have actually been a crash of 815 in the "alternate" world/time, and everyone did die. But not in this timeline. Somehow, I think time could be repeating itself. Remember how the Others know EVERYTHING about the Losties? And I mean EVERYTHING. Even down to Jack's wife being "happy", according to Juliette. Why? Because I think that the Others have had the one thing the Losties didn't/don't have: TIME. More of it. Lots of it. Not just time...but repeating time. Ditto with how parachute girl AND Patchy know how to speak all those languages (and possibly even Rousseau too!): they had TIME - lots of time - to learn them.

Remember Groundhog Day with Bill Murray? He had time to learn the piano and how to do so many things...because his day kept repeating over and over. He had effectively months or years to learn and pefect new things because time kept repeating.

Same thing here, I would bet. I just haven't fleshed it out yet.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

All this debate about what Naomi's purpose for coming to the island was...

Naomi was carrying a picture of Desmond and Penny. It was on an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper consistent with it being the result of a simple color photocopy or scan of the snapshot Penny keeps on her nightstand (of which Desmond also carries a copy).

She recognized Desmond, but Desmond didn't recognisee her.

*She was sent by Penny to find the island and Desmond!* That was essentially telegraphed to us. End of explanation.

All these other theories I'm reading (e. g. "Replacement" for Patchy? Various deeply intwined conspiracy's with the others) are a stretch, even for a Lost thread!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Fish Man said:


> All this debate about what Naomi's purpose for coming to the island was...
> 
> Naomi was carrying a picture of Desmond and Penny. It was on an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper consistent with it being the result of a simple color photocopy or scan of the snapshot Penny keeps on her nightstand (of which Desmond also carries a copy).
> 
> ...


Does anyone have any knowledge or experience with military helicopters? What kind of helicopter would require the pilot to wear a high-altitude flight suit, with oxygen mask and dark visor? And this helicopter apparently also had the optional eject add-on. Does this type of helicopter need a co-pilot or can it be operated by a single person?

Naomi was wearing a dark full-face visor. I am assuming that this type of visor can be retracted when flying conditions change. When the visor is retracted, is there still a clear face shield (like in Apollo 13 and The Right Stuff)? If so, then Naomi didn't simply put the shield down to protect her face, and I'm left to believe that she had the dark shield up flying in the middle of the night. Why?

Well, the idea of the island being under some type of dome has been brought up. Maybe she was flying in the daytime, but then broke through whatever dome/shield is around the Island. But if that were the case, then surely Desmond et al. would have seen the daylight streaming through the rift?

Another explanation is that Naomi came from a different time (or timeline) where she was flying in daytime.

I don't buy the idea that the shield was there just for suspense so we wouldn't see the face and realize it wasn't Penny until the very last second.


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## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

Fish Man said:


> *She was sent by Penny to find the island and Desmond!* That was essentially telegraphed to us. End of explanation.


When has ANYTHING on Lost been as simple as it's telegraphed to be?


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Here's another problem.

We see, for example, Naomi in a flightsuit, complete with oxygen mask. We automatically start asking all the logical questions like, who flies around in a helicopter with a flightsuit and oxygen mask? And who ejects from a helicopter? All logical, of course. But how do we know that all of these details are accurate from a production standpoint? I mean, could it be as simple as, the writers had her in a flightsuit and oxygen mask for emphasis, just to characterize her as the one who bailed from the helicopter? I know that seems like major detail type stuff, but I never take anything at face value anymore without at least considering some of what I'm seeing may be "factual error" type stuff.

I guess what I'm saying is, how do we, as viewers, know when "poetic license" has been taken by the show, and when something is 100% technically hard and fast accurate in the real world? With a show like Lost, where every scene, word, prop, etc. is scrutinized and analyzed by the viewer, it makes it really difficult to sort out sometimes.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

TiVotion said:


> We see, for example, Naomi in a flightsuit, complete with oxygen mask. We automatically start asking all the logical questions like, who flies around in a helicopter with a flightsuit and oxygen mask? And who ejects from a helicopter? All logical, of course.


No one saw a helicopter. They just thought it was a helicopter. We don't know what kind of aircraft she was in.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Amnesia said:


> No one saw a helicopter. They just thought it was a helicopter. We don't know what kind of aircraft she was in.


Well, I never heard a jet fighter making *those* sounds. Then, again, I never heard a puff of smoke sounding like a T-Rex either.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> *She was sent by Penny to find the island and Desmond!* That was essentially telegraphed to us. End of explanation.
> 
> All these other theories I'm reading (e. g. "Replacement" for Patchy? Various deeply intwined conspiracy's with the others) are a stretch, even for a Lost thread!


Makes perfect sense, and that's a little scary. But truly _nothing_ is a stretch for a Lost thread!


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

BriGuy20 said:


> When has ANYTHING on Lost been as simple as it's telegraphed to be?


Well, it was telegraphed that Claire was Jack's half sister, and it turns out Claire is Jack's half sister. Sun was seen in bed with Jae, and it turns out they were having an affair. It was implied that Hurley was in a mental institution, and it turns out he was. . . .

Sometimes (although not always), the simplest explanation is the correct one, even on Lost.


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## numb and number (Mar 7, 2004)

stalemate said:


> Maybe Naomi is from the future and in the future the losties were all found dead. She doesn't know she is in her past now on the island.


If that were true she would have learned of her own death in the same newscast.


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## numb and number (Mar 7, 2004)

scottykempf said:


> And if the sperm levels are 5x, does that mean that all the guys are walking around with boners the whole time???


Yes.. a higher sperm count would not change that.


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## blueshoo (Jun 11, 2001)

Did I miss something, or am I missing something?

1) Apparently no one gets pregnant and lives on the island.
2) Ben has never left the island.
3) Ben and Rousseau are Alex's parents.
4) QED, Alex was conceived and born on the island.

Only thing I'm thinking is if Ben's more of a surrogate father, or the whole pregnancy thing was a relatively recent development.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

blueshoo said:


> Did I miss something, or am I missing something?
> 
> 1) Apparently no one gets pregnant and lives on the island.
> 2) Ben has never left the island.
> ...


The Others (i.e., Ben and friends) kidnapped Alex as a baby. Obviously, Ben raised Alex.


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## blueshoo (Jun 11, 2001)

Thanks. Forgot that Rousseau had said that and was caught up in the recent use of mother and father when describing Rousseau and Ben.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

BriGuy20 said:


> When has ANYTHING on Lost been as simple as it's telegraphed to be?


Throughout the history of the series, there have been things presented to us that had an obvious "face value" explanation, and that explanation did indeed turn out to be the correct one.

Those "face value" explanations are always overanalyzed to death in these threads.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

BriGuy20 said:


> When has ANYTHING on Lost been as simple as it's telegraphed to be?


Most of the time.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Put me in the camp that believes that the crash of Oceanic 815 is because the outside world has written that flight off. Maybe some people found some wreckage or some parts floating in the ocean and matched it with 815. It's very much plausible when you consider almost the same exact thing happened in Indonesia about five months ago. A full airliner went off radar and crashed somewhere in the ocean and no one knew where it went or where it ultimately ended up. Even in this day and age, a full plane of people CAN disappear.

Here's the Wikipedia entry to refresh anyone's memory about this flight:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air_Flight_574

So, that's a simple explanation out of an ending that was designed to send everyone into a tizzy. The next episode looks VERY intriguing.


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## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

I hate to ask at such a late date (I'm still catching up on my Lost), but what did the title "D.O.C." mean? I didn't see anyone answering that it in this thread.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

thenightfly42 said:


> I hate to ask at such a late date (I'm still catching up on my Lost), but what did the title "D.O.C." mean? I didn't see anyone answering that it in this thread.


Date of Conception


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## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

Thanks!


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