# "Senior vs. Junior: American Chopper" (spoilers)



## gastrof

I'm getting a VERY different feel than I ever have before.

Paul Sr. _(by the way...found out Paulie really isn't a "Jr." since they have different middle names)_ is now coming across as just plain MEAN. He was even ridiculing Paulie's fiance.

The "innocent drive by Jr's new shop" was also very strange, especially the pause.

If this isn't all being staged by the production company, I'm really not liking what I'm seeing. I thought that despite all the "noise", these guys really loved each other.

Getting a real different feel now, at least where Senior's concerned.

I mean, OCC is still doing very good work, but it seems the real heart of the old OCC is almost all gone, and is migrating to Jr's side.

I even saw something online about Rick possibly having left OCC. If true, wouldn't be surprised if he ends up working for Paulie.

All Jr's gonna have to do is produce a couple good looking bikes, and the story's gonna write itself.


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## ahartman

It's certainly tough to know how much is staged (encouraged?) for the benefit of the show, but it does appear Sr. has a mean streak in him. I'm guessing he's taking personal offense to both the location of Paulie's new shop as well as the competition.

I'm always leery when there are two polar opposite perspectives being shown - it makes me think it's manufactured to some degree.

As far as the business being worth $0, I can believe it - they expanded so quickly and they have to be carrying tremendous debt. I'm not sure that means Paulie gives up his 20&#37; for nothing, though. I haven't followed any of the court proceedings so I have no idea beyond what was said in this show.

Vinne looks like he may have eaten Cody. No mention if Cody was coming with Vinnie or what they were going to do with V-Force. Guess we'll learn in upcoming shows.


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## gastrof

Vinnie's Wikipedia page says he's going to keep V-Force running despite his now working with Paulie.

_"In a radio interview in June 2010 Dimartino stated that he was going to work with Paul Teutul Jr again for the new American Chopper series (Sr. vs. Jr.) while still running V-Force."_

I'm guessing that's where Cody is working. I'd be surprised if he doesn't show up on SvJ:AC at least once or twice.

A little concerned about what Sr. said about a falling out between Paulie and Mikey. Want to see what that's all about, for sure.


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## Frylock

gastrof said:


> Vinnie's Wikipedia page says he's going to keep V-Force running despite his now working with Paulie.
> 
> _"In a radio interview in June 2010 Dimartino stated that he was going to work with Paul Teutul Jr again for the new American Chopper series (Sr. vs. Jr.) while still running V-Force."_
> 
> I'm guessing that's where Cody is working. I'd be surprised if he doesn't show up on SvJ:AC at least once or twice.
> 
> A little concerned about what Sr. said about a falling out between Paulie and Mikey. Want to see what that's all about, for sure.


It makes sense for Vinnie to be on the show. It can help bring him back into people's thoughts, and then hopefully drive them over to his shop. And he can make some cash working with the show, to help keep his shop going...


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## DanB

Its like driving by an auto accident -- you just have to look.

Well, its got to be getting staged for the cameras, at least several parts. Nice they just happen to have the film crew at the radio station and at OCC for the radio interview and everybody called in.

One thing, in the current economy, do you really think folks are buying custom choppers that much? If it wasnt for the show, would you really be opening a shop now?

Also, does one with basically no company, no clients, and no product just jump feet first into a large building like Jr. did? I guess if you have TV money maybe you do.

As for Vinnie, it came off that he was hesitant because of how he was treated at OCC, but I hope he remembers he was probably just as ticked with Jr for all the times he didnt show up or come in late, shirking the build, etc. as much as he was with Sr. for keeping the shop clean, barking, etc.. I hope Jr. has a shop manager as some of his apparent work ethics may make it a bit difficult for his staff.

I wonder what OCC's suppliers and creditors think about OCC being worth $0.00. I also liked Jr's retort that he'd buy all of his father's shares then 

Although there's definitely enough bad blood to go around, Sr. came off looking like a complete D-ouche in this episode.


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## Gerryex

Hi ALL,

I've been watching this show for many seasons. The people dynamics along with the design stuff is always interesting. While I'm sure there is a fair amount of scripting, I have always thought that Senior would way over react to Junior's faults. And then of course last season ended up with Senior firing Junior and subsequently Senior suing Junior to get Junior's company shares back.

One of the things that bothers me it that Senior does not talk to ANY of his sons! I believe there is a third son which was not involved in Am Chopper, but Senior does not talk to him either. In this new season Senior says that he doesn't talk to any of his sons and almost seemed proud of that fact. Doesn't it say something to Senior that he is estranged with all three of his sons. In other words if Senior was estranged with only one son, then it wouldn't be clear which side most of the problem was on. But if he is estranged with all three doesn't that tell Senior that maybe HE is the problem. Well, obviously not!!!

It will be interesting to see how this season shapes out!

Gerry


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## flyers088

Wow, interesting to see so many people on Jr. side. I really feel he is a class A D-BAG. He has no idea how to run a business and I think it is great to see Sr. be able to get the last laugh in on Jr. He talked forever about getting away from the chopper business and doing something on his own. Seems ridiculous to open a custom shop in this economy, even OCC is hardly doing custom bikes except in exchange for a service. Jr could never do a production line and his shop will be out of business soon. He should have let the wife open the boutique but his ego got the better of him and he kicked that idea to the curb when he realized everyone was laughing at him. Wonder how long before he dumps the wife for the assistant. If I were Rachel there is no way I would let Jr keep her on as an assistant, you are just asking for a divorce. 

Jr. walked around like king of the world at OCC and Sr finally had enough of the BS and got rid of the dead weight. His designs had become stale and his work ethic was terrible. I am sure most people who relied on him to get their job done were glad to see him go. 

I am shocked Vinny is coming back, it will end up being a one man show with Vinny doing all the work and Jr. having 'business' to attend to. I guess TV money is just too much of an allure to give up for Vinny. He clearly is leery of Jr and I think once the show goes so does Vinny.


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## Test

DanB said:


> As for Vinnie, it came off that he was hesitant because of how he was treated at OCC, but I hope he remembers he was probably just as ticked with Jr for all the times he didnt show up or come in late, shirking the build, etc. as much as he was with Sr. for keeping the shop clean, barking, etc.. I hope Jr. has a shop manager as some of his apparent work ethics may make it a bit difficult for his staff.
> 
> I wonder what OCC's suppliers and creditors think about OCC being worth $0.00. I also liked Jr's retort that he'd buy all of his father's shares then
> 
> Although there's definitely enough bad blood to go around, Sr. came off looking like a complete D-ouche in this episode.


When Jr. was doing that he wasn't the boss and he didn't have anything riding on it (even though he did). This is how I see it playing out; Jr. does a complete 180 as the boss, his shop ends up turning out some nice bikes and being a somewhat success. Jr. being in charge realizes some of his fathers side and his father ends up being happy about that and proud that his sons shop is a somewhat success (because of the show) and there is a big family hug by the end of the season.



flyers088 said:


> Wonder how long before he dumps the wife for the assistant. If I were Rachel there is no way I would let Jr keep her on as an assistant, you are just asking for a divorce.
> 
> I am shocked Vinny is coming back, it will end up being a one man show with Vinny doing all the work and Jr. having 'business' to attend to. I guess TV money is just too much of an allure to give up for Vinny. He clearly is leery of Jr and I think once the show goes so does Vinny.


No way he dumps his fiance for the assistant, did you see the two of them?? No comparison. After seeing Vinny show up with V-Force apparel and writing on his car it was clear to me why he agreed to appear.


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## ahartman

To be fair, Jr. hasn't had a crack at running his own business yet, except for the minor design work he did at the tail end of AC last season (Coleman grill, etc.). He will have to work a lot harder than we've seen on the show to make it a success, I agree.

Not sure where all the judgement comes from as far as his relationship, I'll leave that to you, I suppose.

Given the number of folks who used to work at OCC that are now elsewhere or with Jr. I can't say I agree with your "glad to see him go" comment. Rick Petko left the company a while ago (March, I think) so they don't really have a fabricator anymore (that they've shown on the show, anyway). I think Amorati is the closest thing they have but I haven't seen him do anything but exhausts.


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## flyers088

ahartman said:


> To be fair, Jr. hasn't had a crack at running his own business yet, except for the minor design work he did at the tail end of AC last season (Coleman grill, etc.). He will have to work a lot harder than we've seen on the show to make it a success, I agree.
> 
> Not sure where all the judgement comes from as far as his relationship, I'll leave that to you, I suppose.
> 
> Given the number of folks who used to work at OCC that are now elsewhere or with Jr. I can't say I agree with your "glad to see him go" comment. Rick Petko left the company a while ago (March, I think) so they don't really have a fabricator anymore (that they've shown on the show, anyway). I think Amorati is the closest thing they have but I haven't seen him do anything but exhausts.


Where did you get that Rick left OCC?


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## marksman

Senior is clearly a mean SOB and says some absolutely horrible things to his son that make me cringe and not really respect him.

However, he did really protect Paulie from having to do a lot of crap at OCC, which was good at the time but is bad now, because I think Paulie is mostly clueless on the whole business of what they did at OCC outside of DESIGNING bikes. He has got other people there but at the end of the day he is the final say. I am not sure Paulie really understands or appreciates that responsibility.

At the very least it will give him some more appreciation for the burden his father has been under all this years being the man with the final say. Does Paulie have what it takes to be responsible for the livelhood of all his employees and his families? That is what it takes to succesfully run your own business.

I also think he is getting ahead of himself. Senior is mostly right. He doesn't need a big shop with all this stuff. Talking about painting it seems absolutely ridiculous to me. This needs to be a bootstrap operation. Yet he already has like 5 or 6 employees who do nothing.

He should have made a deal with Vinnie, got a deal to build a bike and built a bike with Vinnie. Once that was done he would have the foundation to start building things out. What Paulie is doing is a common mistake for small business owners, and it is one of the reasons why so many fail. They spend too many resources early on doing things that are not critical or relevant to the core business.

I think Paulie is making basic business mistakes. I think Senior is a horrible and mean man to all his children for very poor reasons. I am definitely on the side of Junior at this point... although the likely outcome seems without the tv show probably both will go under soon enough.


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## marksman

flyers088 said:


> Where did you get that Rick left OCC?


I just checked and found this page:

http://www.pedaltothemetal.com/inde...lding_new_shoprick_petko_leaves_and_more.html

Seems to indicate Rick left to start his own business.

Rick probably decided if those yahoos can make money then he certainly can. He was by far the best fabricator of any of them. Hope he does well.

If that is the case though OCC has to be screwed.

edit: I found this on tlc forum shortly after the 3-1-10 announcement from Rick:



> Rick has responded to comments left on his Facebook page regarding his employment at OCC. Here's what he posted.
> 
> "Rick Petko
> I must say I havent left OCC, just need to do my own stuff also."


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## IJustLikeTivo

Just watched it. Sr is a complete d bag. Jr is a bit as well but nothing like his dad. What purposed is serve by trash talking his kids to his employees?

He talks about what a success he is but 10 years in his business is worth nothing and he has ruined every relationship he had. That certainly isn't my idea od success. The only people near him are people he pays. Frankly it's pathetic.


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## ahartman

Sorry guys, after I posted that about Rick, I realized I probably should've put it in spoiler tags since it hasn't happened on the show. I came back to do just that and saw the replies to my post already. Apologies.



Spoiler



I also read that Jr. will have two custom bikes at Sturgis this year, so the shop is definately up & running.


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## IJustLikeTivo

Btw, don't kid yourself, Sr isn't the brains behind the business side either. He ran two very small businesses but nothing like OCC. Additionally he knows very little about design and nearly nothing about modern fabrication or mechanics as he amply demonstrates every time he grabs a tool.

As to whether or no Jr is taking the right road by starting larger, it is way too soon to know. The modern way to go into business is not to handicap yourself by skimping but instead, write a business plan, borrow the money and start with sufficient capital. With a bit of luck and his design talent, he has a decent chance.

BTW, am I the only one who hated that chopper design? Plus it was nearly unrideable as demonstrated by SR almost laying down during the reveal.


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## marksman

No I hated that chopper too. It was ridiculous.

That is the problem between Jason Pohl and Paulie. Paulie is very good at making disparate parts work as a whole. Pohl just draws a bunch of cool stuff and mashes it together.

I thought it was one of the ugliest bikes to come off the show.

It is clear to me Paulie has a special ability to envision these bikes in his head and make them work. If I were to ever want some kind of special chopper to honor/ce*****ate/promote something, he would be the one I would want to do it. In such projects, deadlines would not be the same sort of issue either.

I do think Paulie could do very well if he is able to get enough orders for the showcase bikes and that is all they do.

As for starting a business. Having a business plan and being ready and having finances has NOTHING to do with spending money unnecessarily in the beginning. I have started many small businesses, from bootstraps to well financed projects, and it is always a mistake to unnecessarily spending money.

Painting that building is simply a waste of money with zero benefit to the bottom line. If you want to do it later on as a luxury fine, but until you actually make a dollar, it is a bad idea to spend money on things like that. It is funny Paul Sr. Criticized Paulie for the same thing. Yet I would say the same thing to Paul Sr. when he built that monstrous World Headquarters. That was way too overdone, and now they have this massive building that creates a huge amount of overhead, that is struggling the life out of his business. It was a big mistake for him to do that at the point he did.


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## DevdogAZ

I don't watch this show, nor did I watch the previous show, but Mikey was on Adam Carolla's podcast a few months back, and he made it sound like the rift between Sr. and his sons was very real. He wasn't promoting this new show or anything. He was simply talking about why he wanted nothing to do with any of it and was doing his own stuff, and didn't really care what his dad said or thought.


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## marksman

what did it censor out of there? I wrote celebrate.


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## DevdogAZ

marksman said:


> what did it censor out of there? I wrote celebrate.


There used to be a spinoff forum called T C R e b e l. The powers that be didn't want to lose all their business to this spinoff, so they made the forum software edit out any mention of it's name. So then people started writing it backwards, spelling out L e b e r, CT as if it were a city in Connecticut. But the mods got wise to that, and banned the word "l e b e r" as well. I'm guessing you added an extra "e" in the word celebrate and it triggered that old censor.


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## marksman

Yeah I did think I misspelled it.. so that must be it. So weird LOL.

I never heard of that forum either LOL.


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## kdelande

marksman said:


> what did it censor out of there? I wrote celebrate.


did you by chance accidentally spell it cel-e-b-e-r-ate (minus the dashes) or similar? l-e-b-e-r is a banned word.

KD


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## marksman

Few more thoughts...

1) I noticed how clean OCC was with all the tools put away and straightened up. I understand that is how Sr works, but other people work differently, and I always thought it was crazy to have them stop down in the middle of fabricating a bike to sweep the floor or put things up.

2) Some News about Paulie Jr. that is current..



Spoiler



Apparently he is revealing his first two bikes at Sturgis tonight
http://twitter.com/whereispauljr


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## SeanC

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Btw, don't kid yourself, Sr isn't the brains behind the business side either.


Yup



> He ran two very small businesses but nothing like OCC.


Yup



> Additionally he knows very little about design and nearly nothing about modern fabrication or mechanics as he amply demonstrates every time he grabs a tool.


Yup



> BTW, am I the only one who hated that chopper design?


Nope



> Plus it was nearly unrideable as demonstrated by SR almost laying down during the reveal.


Yep.

You and I are of a mind.


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## IJustLikeTivo

SeanC said:


> You and I are of a mind.


Not sure that's god for either of us.


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## SeanC

For me this show is becoming difficult to watch. The father/son dynamic hits very close to home for me. My dad passed 20 years ago and we had a terrible relationship, I was the last one to speak with him, and it ended in a screaming argument, he was gone 8 hours later from a massive heart attack while he was sleeping.

In the years since then I've had time to reflect on the relationship, obviously there's no way to know if we'd be speaking now, but I like to think I've grown and come to a better understanding of my father from back then, anyway, whatever, this show just bums me out now.

I gotta get a tissue, I got something in my eye.


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## IJustLikeTivo

SeanC said:


> For me this show is becoming difficult to watch. The father/son dynamic hits very close to home for me. My dad passed 20 years ago and we had a terrible relationship, I was the last one to speak with him, and it ended in a screaming argument, he was gone 8 hours later from a massive heart attack while he was sleeping.
> 
> In the years since then I've had time to reflect on the relationship, obviously there's no way to know if we'd be speaking now, but I like to think I've grown and come to a better understanding of my father from back then, anyway, whatever, this show just bums me out now.
> 
> I gotta get a tissue, I got something in my eye.


I'm lucky. While my dad had I had some rough years when I was younger, we had fixed all that by the time he passed a few years back.

That the saddest part of this mess for me too.


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## gastrof

Can I ask a question?

If Senior isn't the brains behind OCC, then who in the world is? Gus and Dave, the two dogs?

Orange County Iron Works was a going business when they started fooling around with making bikes in the basement of their house. (The house that ended up being Mikey's and which we just saw him sell.) Senior must have had SOME business skill to have OCIW be a running concern and to get OCC running. Granted, the show certainly gave them more success with the bike-making, but if Senior isn't the brains behind the two companies, who is?

OCIW ended up in the hands of the "invisible" third son, tho' there's a whole 'nother nightmare story about that, involving it going bankrupt, being transferred into Paulie's hands, and more. We've never seen any sign of OCC being run by the third son ("Danny"?), so who runs it? Certainly not the second wife, and I don't think the first wife (the boys' mother) either.

So who?

_Total side point- Aside from Mikey, is there ANYONE in that family who isn't named "Paul"? Even their mother's name is "Paula"._


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## IJustLikeTivo

gastrof said:


> Can I ask a question?
> 
> If Senior isn't the brains behind OCC, then who in the world is? Gus and Dave, the two dogs?
> 
> So who?
> 
> _Total side point- Aside from Mikey, is there ANYONE in that family who isn't named "Paul"? Even their mother's name is "Paula"._


Sr ran a small iron working company and a cycle building company that barely existed till TV came calling. Sr spent most of the last 8 years acting as a front man for that entity and making public appearances. So, someone else HAS to be paying the bills and signing the paychecks. Obiously there isn't a good business behind the show or it wouldn't be worth zero on paper. Absent TV, we would never have heard of any of these people. They would be just another local bike shop making semi custom street rods.

None of them have common sense, they all spent the money as fast as it came in. Huge houses, lots of cars etc. I assume the businesses are run just as badly. SR hire and keeps just the people who will do what he wants and that's a stupid way to run a business.


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## SullyND

Pohl is such a tool. I don't know that he's designed a single bike the level of Paulie Jr's worst.


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## IJustLikeTivo

SullyND said:


> Pohl is such a tool. I don't know that he's designed a single bike the level of Paulie Jr's worst.


He's good at using the computer but he knows diddly about bike design. Plus, he is just s moron every time he visits a client. I'd lock him in his office and slide pizza under the door once a day.


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## marksman

marksman said:


> Few more thoughts...
> 
> 1) I noticed how clean OCC was with all the tools put away and straightened up. I understand that is how Sr works, but other people work differently, and I always thought it was crazy to have them stop down in the middle of fabricating a bike to sweep the floor or put things up.
> 
> 2) Some News about Paulie Jr. that is current..
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently he is revealing his first two bikes at Sturgis tonight
> http://twitter.com/whereispauljr


Some more info:



Spoiler



pics of actual bikes


Spoiler



http://katesdon.wordpress.com/2010/08/14/paul-jr-designs/


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## IJustLikeTivo

That's the kind of stuff OCC minus Jr will never do.


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## gastrof

I like the Geico bike, but two things bother me.

The other bike, the black and yellow one... Hasn't he already done at least two similar bikes in the past? (I won't specify the connecting aspect, but anyone seeing the photos will understand.)

Also, did I read correctly that someone else did the wheels? I don't like that. I know Jr. may not have his own flo-jet machine yet, but to find out he didn't actually do the whole thing takes a bite off it being a real success for him.

Maybe he gave them the design to use, so in a way it was still Paulie's work?


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## vertigo235

I really like those bikes. 

At first I had the same thought about the yellow/black bike with the webs. But in a way this is Jr's signature so it's not a surprise to me. 

All I know is that if I wanted one of them to build a bike for me it would definitely be Jr. and not Sr.


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## IJustLikeTivo

gastrof said:


> I like the Geico bike, but two things bother me.
> 
> The other bike, the black and yellow one... Hasn't he already done at least two similar bikes in the past? (I won't specify the connecting aspect, but anyone seeing the photos will understand.)
> 
> Also, did I read correctly that someone else did the wheels? I don't like that. I know Jr. may not have his own flo-jet machine yet, but to find out he didn't actually do the whole thing takes a bite off it being a real success for him.
> 
> Maybe he gave them the design to use, so in a way it was still Paulie's work?


Yes, the. Spyder web was derivative but my guess is that he client asked for it. As for the wheels, they used to do that at OCC in the early days too.

BTW, the flo jet just cuts, the wheels are done on a CNC milling machine.


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## d-dub

gastrof said:


> I like the Geico bike, but two things bother me.
> 
> The other bike, the black and yellow one... Hasn't he already done at least two similar bikes in the past? (I won't specify the connecting aspect, but anyone seeing the photos will understand.)
> 
> Also, did I read correctly that someone else did the wheels? I don't like that. I know Jr. may not have his own flo-jet machine yet, but to find out he didn't actually do the whole thing takes a bite off it being a real success for him.
> 
> Maybe he gave them the design to use, so in a way it was still Paulie's work?


You can't cut wheels with a flo-jet. Making wheels requires a fairly sophisticated CNC milling setup. I'm not sure if the big name wheel makers are using machines tailored specifically to wheel production or not, but the mills are probably expensive enough that it's not practical to buy oneunless you're in the business and can keep it running all day, every day.


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## IJustLikeTivo

d-dub said:


> You can't cut wheels with a flo-jet. Making wheels requires a fairly sophisticated CNC milling setup.


I read that someplace. I wonder where? Perhaps the previous post.


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## gastrof

I knew I'd seen them cutting out designs on the wheels...assumed it was the flo-jet.

Oh well...

I don't make bikes, and doubt I'd even want to visit OCC these days, so I'll never learn what they've got.


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## innocentfreak

I watched the first one just to see how it was. I haven't watched AC in years for one of the comments Jr states during the show. 

Their bikes never look original anymore and all just look as a variation to a previous design. When I stopped watching they were making less and less, and instead buying parts off the shelf. 

Even the bike Sr rode in this premiere looked familiar. I will give it a few episodes, but I don't see this holding my attention. I also don't understand opening a large shop when you have no business. I would rather have seen them start small even just fixing bikes and slowly build up until he is building custom bikes.


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## SullyND

gastrof said:


> I knew I'd seen them cutting out designs on the wheels...assumed it was the flo-jet.


You probably have. I believe they've cut out designs on wheel blanks before.



Spoiler



It looks like they have a flo-jet in the preview.


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## Gerryex

I'm no motorcycle person (I think I've only been on one once or twice and that was as a passenger!) but it seemed to me that the one OCC made in this first episode for that web company must have been very uncomfortable. Even SR had to stretch out over that split fuel/oil tank to reach the handle bars. I realize that these speciality bikes are not necessarily made for long trips, but I still would expect them to reasonable functional. Overall, I thought it was a lousy design, and I agree with someone else's post that Jason may be very good with the CAD program but does not really have the knowhow to design a good bike. Whereas JR did have a good head for designing the bike but needed a bunch of help to execute it.

Gerry


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## Frylock

Sr and Jr are both morons. Sr is hard working, and Jr is lazy. Jr has good designs (when he's not making YET ANOTHER WEB BIKE!) and Sr thinks Jason is a good designer (he's not). The two should really realize that they work best when working together. Jr just needs to make some sort of schedule he can stick to, and Sr needs to honor it. It's not rocket science, but these 2 morons don't seem to get it.

And with Sr, Jr and V-Force Customs, does all of that area of NY drive custom bikes???


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## IJustLikeTivo

It's hard to watch and hour os Sr just bashing the he'll out of everyone. I feel sorry for Ric and Jim Quinn. Neither of them must be enjoying the force mike bashing. 

Today they trashed Jr for using "their" vendors. WTF, a vendors sells to anyone with money. Jr also tried, they said, to get a free flo jet. Why not, that's what Sr did. The first year they had it they featured it on every show so clearly there was a quid pro quo involved there as well.

Regardless oh how you think of Jr as a business man at least he isn't spending the hour trash talking like his dad does. 

I'll be really happy when Jr starts building bikes.


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## gastrof

While this thread was meant only for the premiere, I guess it's being used for the current season itself?

I really enjoyed Paul and Vinnie talking about the "free Rick" t-shirts.

I think if they got Rick working with them (I hear they'll be using Nubsie) things would be just about back to normal. (Jason should be included too...I like that goon and him and Paulie worked well together, but from the looks of things he's enjoying being Sr's substitute son.)

OCC is a bunch of strangers now. The only familiar faces are Sr., Jason, and Rick. (I'd mention Christian, but he's always been a face in the background, barely acknowledged.)

Again, if they got Rick at Jr's, it'd be, essentially, the real OCC.

Watch. Senior will croak or have a stroke and Paulie will have to take over OCC anyway.


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## EvilMidniteBombr

I am definitely on Jr.'s side in this one. I realize that it might have been Sr.'s hard work that helped OCC grow. But if it weren't for Jr.'s design and fabrication on the original American Chopper miniseries and the bikes that he did in the first season, Paul Sr. would still be eeking out old school style custom bikes out of the back building at OCIW.

There is no way that Senior would have imagined the bikes that made OCC famous. While I am sure that he is responsible for the majority of OCC's success, he HAS to realize that his son made them famous.

I'm looking forward to seeing what PJrD can do if they are giving the chance. Oh, and the way Senior reacted to Paulie wanting to use the same vendors that OCC has been using is ridiculous. Of course Paulie wants to use someone he's dealt with in the past! He already has a working relationship with them and knows what kind of product they produce. I'd do the same damn thing.

One more thing. I'd _l o v e _ to see Rick leave OCC to do freelance fabricating or his working outright for Paulie. Jr. needs to put a huge "Free Rick" sign by the entrance to his shop so Sr. will see it every time he does one of his drivebys.


----------



## ahartman

Was there even any fabrication on this week's OCC bike? Exhaust/bars and that's about it? They didn't really show the wheels, so I wasn't sure if there was anything custom in them.

I don't feel sorry for anyone still at OCC, except for maybe Rick (and he did some bashing at the end of last year). Everyone else, including JQ are active in the Jr-bashing.

As I said before, I have to believe at least some of the drama is fabricated, but if this season is just going to be Sr. badmouthing Jr. I may bail. I like some friction, but this is just mean spirited.


----------



## DanB

So according to Sr. in show #2, Vinnie quit OCC because of Jr.. My memory fades but I don't remember that.

So was the flowjet paid for or a freebie? I hope it was a freebie just so Sr. can go ballistic.

I liked Sr. saying why not Jr. & Sr. build a drag bike or something cause he knows Jr. wouldnt. I surely hope Jr. wouldnt as well. He needs to focus on growing his business and getting paying customers (if this is all for real) and not get sucked down into the weeds with time consuming, wallet draining things like this.

I'm not sure I would have hung Mikey's mural on my shop wall. Good to see the brothers have some compassion for each other.

I'm still skeptical about this being real. Can there be that much demand for custom one-off bikes right now? Even at the corporate level I would think the demand is low.


----------



## vertigo235

Regardless of how jr really feels at least he is smart enough to know how to present himself when the cameras are on regarding this whole thing. 

Gotta wonder if sr realizes even in the smallest sense how much of a jackass he's coming across as.


----------



## Gerryex

IJustLikeTivo said:


> It's hard to watch and hour os Sr just bashing the he'll out of everyone. I feel sorry for Ric and Jim Quinn. Neither of them must be enjoying the force mike bashing.


Yes, I agree! I've been watching this show for several years, and even before everthing escalated into a war, I always thought Sr was far to arbitrary in starting fights with Jr. Yes, Jr's work ethic was much different than Sr's (coming in late, calling on his cell, etc.) but all the bikes he worked on for the show always were finished on time. Granted some just in the nick of time, but still on time.

I also found it interesting that they showed a few clips from old shows where Sr is yelling at Vinnie and Vinnie has an expression on his face saying "what did I do to deserve this?" And then Sr says that Vinnie quit because of Jr's poor work habits. I thought that was funny, in a sad way.

As far as Jr talking to OCC's vendors and Sr taking exception to that I was amazed. I always thought we were a free country and anyone can buy anything from anyone as long as they can pay for it. Sure Jr tried to get some stuff for free but that decision is up to the vendor and if they pass on that Jr can still buy the equipment.

Lastly, that was a whole bunch of equipment they just installed! Either Jr has a whole bunch of money he's using or he took out some business loans, big time!!!

Gerry


----------



## DanB

Gerryex said:


> Lastly, that was a whole bunch of equipment they just installed! Either Jr has a whole bunch of money he's using or he took out some business loans, big time!!!


Or it's simply product placement.


----------



## gastrof

ahartman said:


> ...Everyone else, including JQ are active in the Jr-bashing...


I was really surprised at that end of things. Even about the guy at Flo-Jet phoning JQ and telling him "Paulie's lookin' for free stuff".

It's like there are people deliberately working against Junior.

Strange.



DanB said:


> So according to Sr. in show #2, Vinnie quit OCC because of Jr.. My memory fades but I don't remember that...


And apparently someone at the production company doesn't remember it that way either. Either last night or last week they showed flashbacks of Senior screaming at Vinnie on more than one occasion while Vinnie talked about why he'd quit.

Yeah. Vinnie left OCC because he hated his buddy Paulie. Right. That's why he's working for him again.

You know, sometimes dictators have been known to rewrite history to try and discredit their opponents.


----------



## Mr Flippant

I watched the show until Vinnie left, basically I did too. I keep an eye on this thread to see if there would be anything interesting to watch since Vinnie is back and so far not interested.

But I am starting to wonder if P Jr's lateness was laziness or prehaps he was avoiding his father. I always thought the former but now I am not so sure that he just hated working there under his father much of the time. You know he hated when his father became abusive. I wonder if he is late coming into his own shop?


----------



## DevdogAZ

Gerryex said:


> Lastly, that was a whole bunch of equipment they just installed! Either Jr has a whole bunch of money he's using or he took out some business loans, big time!!!
> 
> Gerry


Or he's getting a chunk of change from Discovery to be on the show, and it's allowing him to build a business that he otherwise would never be able to fund on the business' profits alone.


----------



## vertigo235

gastrof said:


> I was really surprised at that end of things. Even about the guy at Flo-Jet phoning JQ and telling him "Paulie's lookin' for free stuff".
> 
> It's like there are people deliberately working against Junior.
> 
> Strange.


I'm pretty sure Jr. got either an amazing deal or that Flo-Jet for free. As evidenced by the way they featured it when they showed up with it and talking about it by brand.

I'm sure there are other companies that make waterjets that would have probably stepped in if Flo didn't come through with a great deal.


----------



## marksman

For the life of me I can't figure out why on earth he got 4 bike lifts, unless they were free or at least half off. He doesn't have a customer and probably won't have one for a while. Having 4 lifts seems ridiculous.

Even if someone offered them, I would say, you know what, let us start with two, and if things get going we can get two more in there. I already see so many little mistakes junior is making. Sure he is trying to get clients, but he has already created a sizable amount of overhead with no customers. He didn't even need the building until he got a couple orders rolling.

The poor horse is pushing the cart as Jr keeps throwing more and more stuff on top of it. Jr.'s bike building resume speaks for himself. If he has to impress someone with the building space to try and sell a bike he is doing it wrong.

Heck instead of doing all that stuff and creating all this overhead, he should have offered a company or two massive discounts just to get finished products out there and show viable production as Paul Jr. Designs.

I think he will be okay as long as the tv show stays on, and that will be long enough for him to establish himself... but he is wasting all kinds of time and money with the way he is doing things.


----------



## vertigo235

You make an excellent point. 

I've always thought that they get some sort of budget from the show anyhow. Surely they at least get some sort of salary too. He clearly has money, how much, who knows. I'm sure he probably isn't having too hard of a time finding investors either.


----------



## Malcontent

vertigo235 said:


> I'm sure there are other companies that make waterjets that would have probably stepped in if Flo didn't come through with a great deal.


I could have sworn I heard Vinnie mumble something like "Flow-Jet competitor" when they were unloading the water jet.

I deleted the episode and it's gone for good. Can anyone check?


----------



## vertigo235

I thought he was saying that the Flo-Jet would help them be a competitor. 

ie. it sure sounded like a Flo-Jet plug to me.


----------



## fmowry

I'll admit I haven't watched the show but Sr. was on the Jay Thomas Show on Sirius today indicating that Jr. never designed any bikes, only OKed bikes from the main designer, couldn't fabricate anything, had never wired a bike, and lastly has never really ridden a bike. He said he had given Jr. 3 bikes and Jr. sold all three. Granted this doesn't discount a person being a good business man, but it may go towards the success or failure of the business. It was a great interview so people should try and find it and comment if they have watched all the shows. It certainly piqued my interest in the show so I'll probably tape it and catch up.


----------



## vertigo235

There is a few problems I have with that.

First, who is this mysterious "Main Designer" ? If there was one, then I see no reason why he couldn't have one at his new shop, but from what the show has depicted over the years (expecially before they had Jason Poole), Jr. seemed to have a strong part in the design process. 

Couldn't fabricate anything? Well, sure they have never shown him pounding out gas tanks, OCC never really made their own tanks until Rick came around, but he certainly can fabricate and weld, we've seen him do that enough on the show, unless it was all smoke and mirrors, which I doubt. He certainly shows more fabrication skills than Sr.

Never ridden a bike? Well he's certainly ridden bikes on the show, but as far as what does he prefer to ride? Who cares... If he wants to drive a truck or sports car, what difference does it make.


----------



## vertigo235

Oh and wiring a bike, no he's never really done that, Vinnie always did that, and well, he has Vinnie at his new shop. On that note we've never seen Sr. get his hands dirty with wiring a bike either. 

No offense on wiring a bike though, it's really not that tough, I'm sure Jr. could figure it out if he had to. It's not something you would need a specialist to do (ie. it's NOT an art, just technical).


----------



## marksman

I think Senior is claiming Jason Pohl would design the bikes on the computer and then he would build them.

That is what they did end up doing, but Junior was always the driving force of the design and he would change it up as he went along. The reason they evolved to doing that is because business clients wanted approval before getting the bike build and it would be hard to approve Jr's brain.

I think Paulie has a real gift for designing bikes. He designed all the best looking bikes OCC has ever made. I don't know if his dad is still bashing his son to keep up the ar on the show or he is just that big of an arse.

I deleted mine. They might have got a flow competitor. I assume other people make that kind of equipment. I think it would be dumb for flow not to get on both sides, since they only gave the stuff to OCC in the first place because of the tv show.

It is dumb for senior to be attacking Paulie for going after "his" vendors. That is not how business works. Most companies went to sell to as many people as they can. Especially something like machines to be used, so it would be silly to take sides in something like that.

I do think the cost to get an OCC theme bike has gone down though, so perhaps we can each pitch in $5-$10 and get a TCF bike.


----------



## Frylock

As far as Sr saying Paulie doesn't ride bikes, I think that was in reference to the fact that Jr designed bikes that looked good, but sucked to ride. Since he didn't ride all the time, he didn't take into account what was comfortable, just what looked good. Sr is a biker at heart, and that's where his design elements come from.

As far as the Sr getting pissed at Paulie using the same vendors, I think y'all are misreading what he means. I think Sr. has established accounts with these vendors, with specific reps and deals. And now Jr is approaching the vendors as if he is an off-shoot of OCC, and should get the same deals and treatment that OCC does. Sr even said that he was fine with Jr coming to the vendors as a new business as any other business does. He didn't like Jr trying to trade on his name and his company and get the same kind of deals. And that's a valid complaint of his I think. He doesn't want Jr trading on the OCC company name, when he talks about it being Paul Jr Designs. And that's likely why Flow called up Sr. They probably called to tell him BECAUSE of the way they were approached by Paulie. And because Jr wanted the same deal.

The question is would either of them have this show if the other wasn't there? I don't think so. American Chopper would have ended last season if Jr didn't open a new bike shop. And without OCC, no one would watch a show about Paul Jr designs. So they do need one another, and they need to acknowledge that.

I am surprised by how many people are siding with Jr. I think they both made mistakes. If Jr hated working for his Dad for so long, he should have just quit, or worked out an agreement where they didn't work together. At one point they did work out an agreement about hours and whatnot. And what did Paulie do? He ignored it and did his own thing. Anyone who runs a business would be pissed at that. It was obviously made worse because they are family. And because Sr and Jr are both so much alike, and both are so hard-headed.


----------



## vertigo235

Well, from the first Episode we learned that Jr. still owns 20&#37; of OCC, Sr. is trying to say that the company is worth nothing. If he has special deals with those vendors, then clearly that in itself is worth something. If Sr. wants Jr. to stop trying to use the OCC name, then he need to give him what he deserves for the 20% of the company.


----------



## marksman

Frylock, JR. is not trying to trade on Senior's name. He is trying to trade on the fact that he is on a tv show, and on his own Reputation as a top bike builder. The same exact two things that Senior did to get the free stuff.

Problem is one of those things (being on tv, is not something only one person can have), and the second is...

So if you look at it, Paul Jr. Designs has more to offer than Senior does, potentially.

I think Paulie has every right and expectation to go to these vendors and try and make a deal. It is one of the things he is doing right. That Senior thinks he is out of line just goes back to the core why Senior has crap covered glasses on when it comes to his sons.

The problem with Sr. is he thinks everyone should be treated equally in a business.. and I disagree with that... That is something the former Cowboys Coach Jimmy Johnson also said.. Of course I don't treat everyone equally.

In this case, Paulie was the Golden goose. If Vinnie or Nick or Rick or anyone else in the shop wanted to step up and design bikes that looked as good as Junior, they too could get special treatment. Instead of going that route he goes the route that Junior has to do everything like everyone else. He was part owner of the company. What he did and when he did it was not really any business of the other employees, and that is the message that Sr. should have been sending to the staff there. Instead he sent the completely opposite message, making all the employees upset, and butting heads with Junior at the same time.

I always felt like these "deadlines" for these theme bikes were so bogus to begin with.. They know the bikes take time, and to do them right takes time... so why would any customer in 99&#37; of the cases want some kind of super tight deadline. It makes no sense. It mostly had to be artificial for the show. It is not like Junior did any other work besides the theme bikes and his own creations.

The problem Paul Jr. is going to have though, is he is going to try and do everything the opposite of his dad, which is not the correct approach. Senior did some things poorly, like how he handled Jr and Mikey, but he also did some things very well. Speaking of Mikey, trying to get Mikey into a regular job too was stupid. We talked about it before, but Mikey was an excellent spokesperson for the company. He should have been on the road traveling to events and such, visiting dealers, meeting fans at the store etc etc. Having him do stupid jobs in the shop was a waste of time. It was clear what his real talent and contribution could be.


----------



## gastrof

As for deadlines, it's possible that a specific date was established or agreed to by OCC so that the customer could know when to schedule the reveal.

Some of these reveals/unveilings were pretty big deals that required people to travel...

If OCC didn't get the bike done on time, it'd royally mess with the customer's plans.

I can see the deadlines being legit, even if only because Sr. promised to have it done by a certain date and he doesn't want to make OCC look like a bunch of unreliable fools.

Apparently being seen on national TV as a vindictive moron/monster* doesn't bother him at all, however.

*I couldn't decide which word sounded better.


----------



## marksman

I don't disagree with that, but why is it always so tight? In otherwords, why doesn't a customer come in and say, oh yeah we need the bike on Thursday 7 weeks from now.

Instead it is we got 3 days to fabricate it and 2 days to assemble it. While in the middle it spends a week at paint, powder coat and chrome.


----------



## Hansky

marksman said:


> I don't disagree with that, but why is it always so tight? In otherwords, why doesn't a customer come in and say, oh yeah we need the bike on Thursday 7 weeks from now.
> 
> Instead it is we got 3 days to fabricate it and 2 days to assemble it. While in the middle it spends a week at paint, powder coat and chrome.


It in't real. The "deadline" is hallmark of reality shows like this (building, rehabbing, flipping). From a few seconds google, the new shop was opening around April, with equipment sponsors, so all the footage of Paul Jr. and his shop could have been in April or perhaps earlier.
The Window World event was just last week on August 15th. It was very creative editing to piece together 4 or more months of filming. Further, since it is basically a joint advertising campaign by the parties, there will be paperwork and contracts.

The real timeline of the building of two bikes--

http://www.windowworld.com/blog/press-release/window-world-chopper-to-be-on-tv-in-august-2010/

It appears the cause of death for the CEO is also an ongoing story.


----------



## jeepair

I don't see why Jr needed a flojet machine. I mean they operated for years without one and since he is just starting up he could easily have had parts like that farmed out. That is unless he has gobs of $ and it isn't that much of a deal. Not sure if they mentioned if he received it free or not.

He also needs to hire someone who comes in late, takes off all the time and is disruptive. Mikey comes to mind but I'm thinking of someone who is almost essential to the building of bikes. Maybe then he'll see what his father saw.


----------



## gastrof

jeepair said:


> I don't see why Jr needed a flojet machine. I mean they operated for years without one and since he is just starting up he could easily have had parts like that farmed out. That is unless he has gobs of $ and it isn't that much of a deal. Not sure if they mentioned if he received it free or not.
> 
> He also needs to hire someone who comes in late, takes off all the time and is disruptive. Mikey comes to mind but I'm thinking of someone who is almost essential to the building of bikes. Maybe then he'll see what his father saw.


DISCOVERY CHANNEL is running older ones weekday afternoons and today they ran the one where Sr. let Rick design a bike for himself which OCC would then give to him...and then Sr. kept insisting on the bike having features Rick didn't want.

In the same two parter, Cody leaves OCC to go away to school in Florida.

Anyway, in this one in particular, for some reason it stood out like a sore thumb what a PUNK Paulie was sometimes when talking to his father.

I gotta watch some more of these early ones, because I may have missed or mentally swept under the rug some of what went on. If there are more examples of what I heard in this one, I wonder why Sr. didn't fire the "kid" a lot earlier, let alone mop the floor with him while "helping" him leave the property.

I dunno. The way they all talk to each other there, maybe Jr. was just speaking the local language, but the guy's his father AND his boss. In that one it really hit me how nasty JUNIOR has been at times.


----------



## mrmike

Just caught up on this. I ended up FFing through most of the Senior moments. Seriously. He spent 1/2 of each episode whinging about Paulie. Just build some damn bikes.

And Jr needs to start building. I like seeing him take on the role of boss but the machinery is what I watch this for, not the drama. Of course, I'm probably in the minority on that.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

mrmike said:


> Just caught up on this. I ended up FFing through most of the Senior moments. Seriously. He spent 1/2 of each episode whinging about Paulie. Just build some damn bikes.
> 
> And Jr needs to start building. I like seeing him take on the role of boss but the machinery is what I watch this for, not the drama. Of course, I'm probably in the minority on that.


I watch for both, actually. But cut Discovery/TLC some slack. This season is only 2 episodes old. Give them a little time to show how Junior is actually having to build a customer base and establish vendors. Now, in my opinion, he should be building stock bikes in the mean time. Just to get some cash coming in. They don't have to be super fancy, but could be somewhat customized. Make some that look like some of the web themed bikes. I'd bet that a FDNY / 9-11 themed production bike would sell good enough to get some cash flow.

But, that's just my opinion.


----------



## Gerryex

gastrof said:


> Anyway, in this one in particular, for some reason it stood out like a sore thumb what a PUNK Paulie was sometimes when talking to his father.


Jr is definitely not totally innocent but I've been watching the show for years and I still have to say that in general Sr is much more arbitrary in picking fights with Jr. Yes, Jr's work ethic is WAY different from Sr's and Jr did come in late many time and would talk on his cell phone. But like another poster said, Jr was part owner in the business and as such should be treated at least a little bit different from a regular employee. Basically it was Sr's way or it was the wrong way!

Most of the proof of the pudding is that Sr is estranged with ALL of his sons, and not just Jr! That alone tells me that there is something wrong with Sr's attitude!!!

Gerry


----------



## DevdogAZ

gastrof said:


> Anyway, in this one in particular, for some reason it stood out like a sore thumb what a PUNK Paulie was sometimes when talking to his father.
> 
> I gotta watch some more of these early ones, because I may have missed or mentally swept under the rug some of what went on. If there are more examples of what I heard in this one, I wonder why Sr. didn't fire the "kid" a lot earlier, let alone mop the floor with him while "helping" him leave the property.


Sr. didn't fire Jr. because the drama is what made the show popular, and therefore was necessary. I'm sure Sr. and Jr. were both under contract for the show and Jr. couldn't be fired. In addition, I'm sure they were coached by the producers that these kinds of altercations actually increased ratings.


----------



## marksman

jeepair said:


> I don't see why Jr needed a flojet machine. I mean they operated for years without one and since he is just starting up he could easily have had parts like that farmed out. That is unless he has gobs of $ and it isn't that much of a deal. Not sure if they mentioned if he received it free or not.
> 
> He also needs to hire someone who comes in late, takes off all the time and is disruptive. Mikey comes to mind but I'm thinking of someone who is almost essential to the building of bikes. Maybe then he'll see what his father saw.


I do want to cut Paulie some slack because he is so creative.. But I think a good example would be if say Nubbie acted like Paulie and always dragged on getting stuff down for special paint jobs, or was always days late with everything. It obviously would become annoying... and Nubbie is a creative and artistic guy as well... so there is a point to be made there. I think I probably cut Jr. too much slack, because he is very good at a specific thing that made OCC a lot of money.

I will say again, though, as an owner/manager of people, you have to figure to best manage each individual and get the most out of them. Treating everyone the same is almost never the right strategy, and that is where Sr. has to take the responsibility.


----------



## marksman

Hansky said:


> It in't real. The "deadline" is hallmark of reality shows like this (building, rehabbing, flipping). From a few seconds google, the new shop was opening around April, with equipment sponsors, so all the footage of Paul Jr. and his shop could have been in April or perhaps earlier.
> The Window World event was just last week on August 15th. It was very creative editing to piece together 4 or more months of filming. Further, since it is basically a joint advertising campaign by the parties, there will be paperwork and contracts.
> 
> The real timeline of the building of two bikes--
> 
> http://www.windowworld.com/blog/press-release/window-world-chopper-to-be-on-tv-in-august-2010/
> 
> It appears the cause of death for the CEO is also an ongoing story.


I would not think they refereed to it as a greenie because a greenhorn could ride it. I thought greenie refereed to one of their production bike frame models.

Maybe that is what it means, but I never thought that is why it was called that.

That article sure does make it seem like they love Sr.... why so much Sr. love.

Also I am not sure those dates there refer to unveil we saw on the show. That was for the auction for the second bike I think.

I believe most of the time they build two theme bikes likes this. In some cases they may be duplicates or very close. I have read elsewhere that on most these builds they end up making two bikes.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

I see this whole Jr vs Sr thing like a pack of lions. Sr is the dominant male and Jr is the young male trying to prove his worth and take over the pack, in this case the business. Sr isn't willing to step aside and has gone on the attack to save his position, just like that pack leader.


----------



## Hansky

marksman said:


> Also I am not sure those dates there refer to unveil we saw on the show. That was for the auction for the second bike I think.


The August 15 event was definitely the target date referenced in the show - the company's big annual event. The bottom line is that the deadline was not a few days and that was, as usual, manufactured for drama.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

Hansky said:


> The August 15 event was definitely the target date referenced in the show - the company's big annual event. The bottom line is that the deadline was not a few days and that was, as usual, manufactured for drama.


So they did all of the editing and post production in 3 days??


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

WhiskeyTango said:


> So they did all of the editing and post production in 3 days??


Two different bikes. The one on the show was done months earlier and will not be sold. The other one debuted on Aug 15th and will be sold.


----------



## Hansky

WhiskeyTango said:


> So they did all of the editing and post production in 3 days??


Sure, they waited until the 16th to edit and produce the entire show. The only other possible answer is that they created a fake company event, brought in all those other people, including the family of the deceased CEO, and staged it all.
Right???

How about they just added a minute or two of footage after the event?


----------



## Hansky

DevdogAZ said:


> Sr. didn't fire Jr. because the drama is what made the show popular, and therefore was necessary. I'm sure Sr. and Jr. were both under contract for the show and Jr. couldn't be fired. In addition, I'm sure they were coached by the producers that these kinds of altercations actually increased ratings.


http://www.nybusinessdivorce.com/2010/05/articles/buyout/business-divorce-american-chopper-style/


----------



## WhiskeyTango

Hansky said:


> Sure, they waited until the 16th to edit and produce the entire show. The only other possible answer is that they created a fake company event, brought in all those other people, including the family of the deceased CEO, and staged it all.
> Right???
> 
> How about they just added a minute or two of footage after the event?


You're the one that said the 15th was the actual deadline and that they pieced together 4 months of filming. The 15th was the date of the auction of the second bike. The article said WW went to OCC back on April 20 which is the same time you pointed out that Jr's shop was up and running. The first bike would have had to been unveiled before the auction because the article also said it was used in a bike ride in July. As for it being staged, both the show and the article referenced the unveil being at the 'events surrounding the Indianapolis 500' which is the end of May. So that gives OCC about a month from opening design discussions to finished build.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Hansky said:


> http://www.nybusinessdivorce.com/2010/05/articles/buyout/business-divorce-american-chopper-style/


That seems to back up my point. Senior didn't fire Junior because he couldn't due to their TV contract. When Senior finally did get so fed up that he fired Junior anyway, TLC threatened to sue if Junior wasn't brought back, and they worked out a deal where Junior came back. 


> At the end of 2008, Senior famously fired Junior after they got into a nasty, chair-throwing, on-camera argument that was aired in April 2009.
> 
> In January 2009, after TLC gave the Teutuls a notice of default due to Junior's departure, Senior and Junior entered into a letter agreement modifying the 2008 employment contract under which Junior resumed work as an independent contractor.


----------



## gastrof

marksman said:


> ...I believe most of the time they build two theme bikes likes this. In some cases they may be duplicates or very close. I have read elsewhere that on most these builds they end up making two bikes.


I've suspected this was true, just on the basis of us later seeing bikes on display that had been auctioned off for charity, sold to the person or company that ordered the bike, etc.

There must be duplicate bikes made, either at the time of the build or later, based on photos and/or plans.


----------



## Hansky

WhiskeyTango said:


> You're the one that said the 15th was the actual deadline ...


No, I did not. I merely pointed out that the events depicted in the show ran from April (if not earlier) to the August 15 event mentioned in the show, and I concluded that any deadline of a few days was not true. Otherwise, I referred to the press release for people to draw their own conclusions.

In the post to which you responded, I proposed the most likely scenario for adding the unveiling ceremony to the show.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

Hansky said:


> No, I did not. I merely pointed out that the events depicted in the show ran from April (if not earlier) to the August 15 event mentioned in the show, and I concluded that any deadline of a few days was not true. Otherwise, I referred to the press release for people to draw their own conclusions.
> 
> In the post to which you responded, I proposed the most likely scenario for adding the unveiling ceremony to the show.


Ok, I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to say initially. Apologies.


----------



## gastrof

You guys (Hansky and WhiskeyTango) had me wondering which of you is Sr. and which is Jr.

Until you settled things. That was the giveaway. You ain't them.


----------



## flyers088

I thought Jr. was supposed to be the creative one. Really!! another web bike? And it looks like he is not even doing it for a client just realizes he can't get people to pay for his services so he will just waste his own money to build a bike to satisfy his ego. What a loser!!!


----------



## Hansky

flyers088 said:


> And it looks like he is not even doing it for a client just realizes he can't get people to pay for his services so he will just waste his own money to build a bike to satisfy his ego. What a loser!!!


Good theory. Why would Paul Jr. want to build a bike, on a show about (to some extent), building bikes. Why would the producers want to show him building a bike? Shots of the shop with nothing going on would be a much, much better idea. I just don't understand. What a group of losers!


----------



## SullyND

Is it just me, or are the two Pauls starting to look more alike (Especially since Sr seems to be thinning down somewhat)


----------



## Malcontent

flyers088 said:


> I thought Jr. was supposed to be the creative one. Really!! another web bike? And it looks like he is not even doing it for a client just realizes he can't get people to pay for his services so he will just waste his own money to build a bike to satisfy his ego. What a loser!!!


My take was he was building a bike to generate interest and buzz. To attract paying clients. To show potential clients that he could build a bike on his own, without the help or backing of his father.

But that's just me.

As to, "another web bike". How can it be worse then those cookie cutter bikes that Jason Poole "designs" on his computer? Jason has computer skills but has no mechanical or fabricating skills or knowledge.


----------



## ahartman

Malcontent said:


> Jason has computer skills but has no mechanical or fabricating skills or knowledge.


Doesn't really matter - they're just building stock bikes anymore. Last nite's hardly had anything fabricated on it - handlebars, exhaust and some random sheet metal. They didn't even show any of the building of the finished bike - guessing that means the wheels were stock as well.

I'm looking forward to watching Jr's team build a bike from rough drawings and imagination - see some actual skill rather than cookie cutter parts going into a bike.

The way OCC is building bikes these days is likely more efficient but it's pretty sterile, too.


----------



## sburnside1

The first season was little more than order parts, and weld a little bit of extra stuff on them. I think they even ordered the handlebars. It wasnt until Rick that they started fabricating tanks.

Id say they had some creative stuff in the middle. I liked the looks of some of the first bikes, but really, it was just accessories attached to the bike, with stock tank, exhaust, bars, seat.


----------



## Gerryex

I can't for the life of me figure out why Mikey needs an assistant! What does he do? Where is (or did) he get the money to pay for an assistant. For that matter where does he get his money to live on. I realize that he probably got a piece of the money for the show but was that really that much? Did he get paid when he was "working" for OCC? Speaking of which, I remember one time where they put together a contract for Mikey when he was watching over their web site. So during the years it seems he WAS working for OCC and did get paid, but again I have no idea for what. And then for Sr to always be yelling at Jr about his work habits when Mikey seemingly did no real work for OCC yet got paid for that. It always seemed to me to be very unfair to Jr!!

Gerry


----------



## Malcontent

Gerryex said:


> For that matter where does he get his money to live on.


They mentioned that Mikey sold his old house. So, maybe he's using the money to live on.


----------



## Gerryex

Malcontent said:


> They mentioned that Mikey sold his old house. So, maybe he's using the money to live on.


Maybe so, but even before that when he was living in the old house, he seemed to not be lacking in funds, but never did any real work.

I have nothing personally against Mikey, but his activities through out the years seemed very strange in that he always seemed to provide comic relief but other than that was not gainfully employed. Again, I just thought it was unfair how Sr seemed to let Mikey get away with anything, while still getting paid, and yet always picked on Jr. Yes, Jr was also wrong in the things he did or did not do, but not, in my opinion, as strongly as Sr used to think.

Gerry


----------



## Mr. Belboz

I would think Sr, Paulie and Mikey get paid pretty well by TLC for the show. I would bet that has been Mikey's main source of income at this point.


----------



## vertigo235

No doubt. It's likely the reason Jr. seems to currently have so much money as well.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

Mr. Belboz said:


> I would think Sr, Paulie and Mikey get paid pretty well by TLC for the show. I would bet that has been Mikey's main source of income at this point.


I think that's safe to say especially since those dopes on Jersey Shore make like $30,000 an episode.


----------



## DevdogAZ

WhiskeyTango said:


> I think that's safe to say especially since those dopes on Jersey Shore make like $30,000 an episode.


They actually held out prior to the second season until MTV caved in and gave them $60,000 per episode.

As for American Chopper, I have no idea what they're making, but before Jon & Kate blew up, I think they were making something like $75k per ep. American Chopper wasn't nearly as popular, so I'm sure they weren't making that much, but I wouldn't be surprised if they made $10,000-$25,000 per episode.


----------



## hyimted

i used to watch the show religiously, but stopped about a year or two ago ... it just wasn't the same. ironically, i just happened to catch it last night and decided to put it back on my season pass. 

but not so sure it'll stay on there ... show feels totally different.


----------



## bareyb

Just read all three pages of this thread. I agree withat those that feel Sr. is being a d-bag for trying to get Paulie's 20% for nothing. Just another case of Senior saying "come here, now go away". If he really wanted to be rid of Paulie he'd pay him off.

Instead he wants Paulie's contribution to the show (and Mikey's for that matter) to be seen as worthless. That HE did everything and they did nothing. Not true. Without Paulie and Mikey they all would have made _nothing_. They made all their money as a result of the show. It was the single greatest marketing tool in the history of TV. I always thought he (Sr.) was an idiot not to give Vinnie a piece of the action as well as Rick. Maybe not a partnership, but at least a profit share when the times were good. It's no wonder they all left. He underpaid them and he under appreciated them too. Which is worse IMO.

Senior seems determined that Paulie get nothing for his share. I think that's wrong. The truly ironic part of all this is that in the end, the government and all his estranged sons are probably going to end up with everything anyway. He may SAY he's gonna cut them all off, but in the end,I don't think he will.

I'm with those who hope they'll all get back together, but somehow I doubt it. I don't see any of them going back to work for Senior unless Senior has some kind of miraculous "spiritual awakening" that completely changes his personality, or they all run out of money.


----------



## gastrof

While I think Senior's been acting like a monster (I think he's going crazy...I really do), if you can trust something he said, it's a little eye opening.

Senior said that Paulie told him having an interest in the company would get him more attentive to things, so Senior GAVE him 20 percent. If this is true, then you can sort of see why Senior would want that back now, and it's more understandable why there was said to be a contractual element allowing Senior to buy the 20 percent back if he wanted it.

I still think "American Chopper" could easily go on switching attention to PJD rather than OCC. Paulie, Mikey, and Vinnie are there, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Rick show up eventually.

The only thing we'd be missing is someone screaming at someone else on a regular basis, and we might be able to handle that and still enjoy the show.

Hey, what'd you guys think of Mikey telling "daddie" that he'd sit down with him after he makes things right with Paulie? Kid's growing up.


----------



## Frylock

bareyb said:


> Just read all three pages of this thread. I agree withat those that feel Sr. is being a d-bag for trying to get Paulie's 20% for nothing. Just another case of Senior saying "come here, now go away". If he really wanted to be rid of Paulie he'd pay him off.


Pay him for what though? He had the company valued. If Paulie didn't like his number, he could have it valued himself. But he is smart enough to know that that huge building they built is draining whatever money that the shop is making. So what is he paying him for? If he cashed out when the business was on a high, then yeah, that 20% was really worth something. Today? Not so much.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Frylock said:


> Pay him for what though? He had the company valued. If Paulie didn't like his number, he could have it valued himself. But he is smart enough to know that that huge building they built is draining whatever money that the shop is making. So what is he paying him for? If he cashed out when the business was on a high, then yeah, that 20% was really worth something. Today? Not so much.


I understand PJr's issue. He wants the company valued for it's assets, not it's liabilities but that isn't how it works. I think the true value is something between the zero that PSr's accountant says and what PJr wants it to be. They massively overspent on the new World Wide Headquarters and precisely the wrong moment. All that stupid overseas stuff went no where, they are getting nothing but low rent builds with no budget to do high end stuff. In short, their ride is over. The issue becomes, what can they salvage. The building is so heavily branded that is has no value to anyone else. The name is junk based on their current bikes. So, how do they derive any value at all?

I don't think there is a way at this point. I think they all need to massively scale back and try to hold on.


----------



## bareyb

Frylock said:


> Pay him for what though? He had the company valued. If Paulie didn't like his number, he could have it valued himself. But he is smart enough to know that that huge building they built is draining whatever money that the shop is making. So what is he paying him for? If he cashed out when the business was on a high, then yeah, that 20% was really worth something. Today? Not so much.





IJustLikeTivo said:


> *I understand PJr's issue. He wants the company valued for it's assets, not it's liabilities but that isn't how it works. I think the true value is something between the zero that PSr's accountant says and what PJr wants it to be. They massively overspent on the new World Wide Headquarters and precisely the wrong moment. *All that stupid overseas stuff went no where, they are getting nothing but low rent builds with no budget to do high end stuff. In short, their ride is over. The issue becomes, what can they salvage. The building is so heavily branded that is has no value to anyone else. The name is junk based on their current bikes. So, how do they derive any value at all?
> 
> I don't think there is a way at this point. I think they all need to massively scale back and try to hold on.


Precisely this. The company is obviously worth more than "nothing" or Senior and everyone else would simply walk away. If you guys recall, at the time, I was one of the few who said that the new building was a huge mistake and that they were expanding too quickly. For once, I hate to be right...

This is about more than money. Senior wants to punish his sons and send a clear message that this is HIS business and they were simply leeches along for the ride. Yeah, well BS. It was Paulie and Mikey who made the SHOW happen. Senior wouldn't have had a show if it were not for them. Any bikes they sold and any money they made was a direct result of having the highest rated cable show on TV. No show, no money. No Paulie and Mikey, no show. Simple as that.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

bareyb said:


> Precisely this. The company is obviously worth more than "nothing" or Senior and everyone else would simply walk away. If you guys recall, at the time, I was one of the few who said that the new building was a huge mistake and that they were expanding too quickly. For once, I hate to be right...
> 
> This is about more than money. Senior wants to punish his sons and send a clear message that this is HIS business and they were simply leeches along for the ride. Yeah, well BS.* It was Paulie and Mikey who made the SHOW happen. Senior wouldn't have had a show if it were not for them.* Any bikes they sold and any money they made was a direct result of having the highest rated cable show on TV. No show, no money. *No Paulie and Mikey, no show.* Simple as that.


I agree with one exception. If it weren't for the tension between PSr and PJr it would have been a pretty dull show. But anyone can see from the episodes since PJr left that the show has been boring as hell. Watching PSr struggle to do descriptions of bikes and what they've been doing is painful. There is NO WAY he could have carried that show without his sons. Add the Teutel's personalities with PJr's design talent and that's what made the show successful.


----------



## marksman

My idea is for PJD to hire Rick (by the way people are sending Rick Free Rick items like mugs and such to OCC), and then create a fake SR. doll that comes out like a cuckoo clock every 30 minutes and hurls insults at Paul Jr. and maybe throws something.

I think that would bring back the old spirit of the show.


----------



## bareyb

marksman said:


> My idea is for PJD to hire Rick (by the way people are sending Rick Free Rick items like mugs and such to OCC), and then create a fake SR. doll that comes out like a cuckoo clock every 30 minutes and hurls insults at Paul Jr. and maybe throws something.
> 
> I think that would bring back the old spirit of the show.


The way things are going, I wouldn't be all that surprised if Rick shows up at PJD. Does anyone know if he's getting paid to be on TV? If he's making "TV money" he may end up over with Paulie just to keep the money coming. It almost wouldn't surprise me if Senior told TLC that only his family members could get paid and cut Vinnie and Rick out. I know Kate on and Kate + 8 did that on her show, only she wouldn't even let her SISTER get paid to be on the show...


----------



## Frylock

Why would Rick go to work for PJD? Until PJD actually starts getting customers at least. Both Sr and Jr need to keep the show going to keep themselves afloat. Without the show, I don't think either business makes it.


----------



## Gerryex

I hate to pick on Mikey but why on earth would he hire an assistant who seems more inept than Mikey is!! How would someone like Mikey get around in life without someone like his brother to look out for him. To let his car insurance expire and the only thing he did was to call his agent and not follow through about it is just plain stupid. Then he shows off doing car spinning (with no insurance) when he comes over to his brothers shop to get help with his car insurance! I did like the way the lady that works for Jr yelled at Mikey to stop fooling around in the car.

I have to agree with Jr that Sr's call to him was probably to little and too late!

There is no show next week. Was this the end or are there new episodes after a 1 week break?

Gerry


----------



## bareyb

Wow. How about that guy falling through the roof and DYING? Geez... I know it had nothing to do with Paulie, but I'd be feeling like it was a pretty "bad omen" if I were Paulie. 

Yeah... I still love this show. Not sure why. 

Maybe it's all the history with the Teutuls? I don't know, but I have to say I'm glad it still on the air. Great to see Vinnie back in action too. I just hope this whole thing has a happy ending.

but I'm not going to hold my breath...


----------



## ahartman

Gerryex said:


> I hate to pick on Mikey but why on earth would he hire an assistant who seems more inept than Mikey is!!
> 
> There is no show next week. Was this the end or are there new episodes after a 1 week break?
> 
> Gerry


Mike is comic relief. Having a bonehead assistant just adds to it.

The previews for the next show were "In two weeks...".


----------



## Gerryex

ahartman said:


> Mike is comic relief. Having a bonehead assistant just adds to it.


Yes, I agree, but enough is enough! That guy HAS to take responsibility for at least SOME of the day to day things in his life!!!

Gerry

P. S. I missed the coming attractions so I'm glad it will be back in 2 weeks!


----------



## bareyb

> I thought it was SO ironic to see Paulie having to get on Mikey's case for not showing up to work. *I had a feeling once Paulie was "the boss" he'd probably end up being more like his old man than he will want to admit. *This is going to be good for them both (Senior and Junior) in that it will give Paulie a chance to see things from Dad's point of view for a while.


Gotta give Junior props for his newly inspired work ethic. I had a feeling once the money that was going down the drain was HIS he'd change his ways. I'm sure on some level Senior is going to be proud of him, even if he won't admit it publicly. I think a lot of his BS about Paul and Mikey having nothing to do with building the brand is just him posturing for the court case. I'd like to see senior do the right thing here and pay Paulie off. Let his kid spread his wings and fly. Or crash...


----------



## Malcontent

bareyb said:


> I thought it was SO ironic to see Paulie having to get on Mikey's case for not showing up to work.


I thought the call to Mikey complaining about his not showing up was a ruse to get him to the shop to surprise him with the art supplies.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

bareyb said:


> I'm wondering if TLC is picking up the tab for his "assistant". Just to make sure Mikey shows up for work...
> 
> I thought it was SO ironic to see Paulie having to get on Mikey's case for not showing up to work. I had a feeling once Paulie was "the boss" he'd probably end up being more like his old man than he will want to admit. This is going to be good for them both (Senior and Junior) in that it will give Paulie a chance to see things from Dad's point of view for a while.


When Jr got the bad news about the electric being delayed, I was sure he was going to destroy a door or something like they used to do in the old shop.


----------



## marksman

It is scary what OCC has had builds for this season.

A ridiculous web company, Window World, a build in exchange for welding equipment and now a build for a tv show.

I know they have done some of that stuff before, but it seems they literally have no legitimate theme customers.


----------



## vertigo235

marksman said:


> It is scary what OCC has had builds for this season.
> 
> A ridiculous web company, Window World, a build in exchange for welding equipment and now a build for a tv show.
> 
> I know they have done some of that stuff before, but it seems they literally have no legitimate theme customers.


Worse than that, it wasn't just a TV show, it was a Discovery TV show!

At least Jr's future client



Spoiler



GEICO



is a real nationally known company!


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

vertigo235 said:


> At least Jr's future client
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> GEICO
> 
> 
> 
> is a real nationally known company!





Spoiler



I wonder if PJr is getting paid for that one or if it's going to be in exchange for them carrying insurance on Mikey? LOL!


----------



## bareyb

Malcontent said:


> I thought the call to Mikey complaining about his not showing up was a ruse to get him to the shop to surprise him with the art supplies.


Well yeah. It was. Bad example. 

But he's been kind of playing the part of "Senior" with Mikey on other issues this season.


----------



## bareyb

marksman said:


> It is scary what OCC has had builds for this season.
> 
> A ridiculous web company, Window World, a build in exchange for welding equipment and now a build for a tv show.
> 
> I know they have done some of that stuff before, but it seems they literally have no legitimate theme customers.


It's amazing how fast something can go from red hot to stone cold. I think once people actually began buying Customs the word got out on how unreliable they tend to be and a bunch of them ended up on Cycle Trader. Factor in the bad economy and the family squabbles at OCC and overnight it just tanked. Crazy.


----------



## marksman

Yeah about the future client, I had heard that, and I bet it pissed Senior off, because perhaps the only legitimate client out there and Junior gets the deal.

The reality is everyone should be merged back together and Paulie should be put in complete charge of theme bike builds. Senior can manage everything else... and Mikey can be used for PR...

It will not happen though, because Senior is too much of a control freak, and has too narrow a view of how a business can work and be run.


----------



## gastrof

Last night's episode...

I'm a little surprised about Mikey being so blunt on the radio. Sure didn't help with any potential healing.

And what was with Paulie's face in several scenes? Did he burn off his eyebrows or something?

Nice that he got the Geiko bike, tho'. Since we're seeing this months later, the final look of the bike's already known, and it sure shows what PJD can do. It had the same inventiveness we've always seen from OCC bikes.

Wonder what that suggests?


----------



## vertigo235

gastrof said:


> Last night's episode...
> 
> I'm a little surprised about Mikey being so blunt on the radio. Sure didn't help with any potential healing.
> 
> And what was with Paulie's face in several scenes? Did he burn off his eyebrows or something?
> 
> Nice that he got the Geiko bike, tho'. Since we're seeing this months later, the final look of the bike's already known, and it sure shows what PJD can do. It had the same inventiveness we've always seen from OCC bikes.
> 
> Wonder what that suggests?


It was also interesting to see nubs apprehension to partner up with Jr. I don't remember the falling out that happened between him and occ but it seemed to have a lasting impression on him.


----------



## hyimted

i gave up, deleted my season pass .... the show's just not what it used to be. if i wanna watch a family fight, i'll watch the kardashians (sp?).


----------



## SeanC

marksman said:


> The reality is everyone should be merged back together and Paulie should be put in complete charge of theme bike builds. Senior can manage everything else... and Mikey can be used for PR...


That is about the most perfect business plan that they could possibly have. Seriously, that would be awesome, and I think pretty damn profitable for all concerned, but you're right, Sr would never do it.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

vertigo235 said:


> It was also interesting to see nubs apprehension to partner up with Jr. I don't remember the falling out that happened between him and occ but it seemed to have a lasting impression on him.


I don't think they aired the final falling out. I do remember early on in the series the first time PSr fired Nub. I don't recall what it was over (deadlines I think) but it was before they built the FDNY Bike.

They dumped Nubby the second time around the time they had the new building finished. I wish they would go into some detail as to what PSr reason was to stop using Nubs.

The more I watch this new season. The more I am convinced that Senior is a delusional ******bag. Mikey and Junior are correct that OCC would not be where they are now if it weren't for Juniors designs. It is his creative talent that got them recognized and made them famous. Jason Poole is talented, but his a$$ wouldn't be working there if it weren't for the work that Junior did prior to Jason joining the company.

I'd L-O-V-E to see Rick get the hell out of OCC and work for Junior. Maybe that would help Sr wake up.


----------



## vertigo235

I found myself skipping right over the occ stuff 

Im only ontrested in the pjr side of the show now. 

I always thought that it was the kids that were immature but man sr sure is proving me wrong with every episode.


----------



## Test

Did Jr say Cody was going to start working there? It sounded like he said "odi" was going to help make the deadline, I was thinking that's his nickname or I missed the c oooor I'm just way off.


----------



## Brent W

Test said:


> Did Jr say Cody was going to start working there? It sounded like he said "odi" was going to help make the deadline, I was thinking that's his nickname or I missed the c oooor I'm just way off.


In the group, when Jr announced the Gieko bike, there was a guy on the edge who may have been Cody. It was someone we haven't been introduced to yet, and his build type did match Cody's, but I couldn't really see the face.


----------



## Gerryex

Hi ALL,

While I am not a motorcycle person, I've been watching this show for many years. I just like watching the builds and the personalities.

I must now say the Sr is totally rewriting history!! ABSOLUTELY all of the custom builds (at least the ones on the show) were designed by Jr. Jason is a talented computer draftsman, but that is ALL he is. In all of the designs Jr would tell Jason what to draw up and then Jr would review his drawings and have Jason make any changes that Jr wanted. Sure Jason might make some suggestions, but many times Jr would veto them and have Jason do what Jr wanted.

For Sr and Jason to say that Jr was not the primary driving force behind the designs is just plain wrong!! I've always thought that Sr was way to arbitrary in picking fights with Jr and now Sr just seems to be obsessed with saying and doing anything negative against Jr. Sure Jr's work ethic is way different than Sr's but he still got all of the builds done on time.

Lastly, Jr can put in the extra effort if needed - for example coming in at 5 AM!!! By the way, I don't think the shop area is air conditioned and that's why Jr's face was all sweaty in the close ups!

Gerry


----------



## WhiskeyTango

Test said:


> Did Jr say Cody was going to start working there? It sounded like he said "odi" was going to help make the deadline, I was thinking that's his nickname or I missed the c oooor I'm just way off.


I think there was a guy named Odi that used to work at OCC. Maybe Jr poached another former OCC employee.

With Jr starting from scratch, his business is looking more like what OCC did when the show first started. By that I mean, hand done work and more detail instead of the 'cookie cutter' style used by OCC.


----------



## windracer

Gerryex said:


> By the way, I don't think the shop area is air conditioned and that's why Jr's face was all sweaty in the close ups!


This. He mentioned it was 100 degrees or so in there and I think even Mikey was overly sweaty in a few of the interviews. All that cash he laid out for the equipment but no AC?



vertigo235 said:


> I found myself skipping right over the occ stuff
> Im only ontrested in the pjr side of the show now.


I'm starting to agree. Watching Vinnie and Paul Jr. work on the tank took me back to the early seasons of the show which showed more of the fabrication work (back then most of the bikes were two-part episodes).

And I know I probably should have known this, but just yesterday did I finally figure out the Paul Jr. Designs logo. I had no idea what that image was supposed to mean but now I see it's a stylized Jr.

How long will the spider survive before they decide to put it in the flowjet or shoot it out an air cannon?


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

The new guy is Odie (i think that's how they spelled it) and he was actually interviewed on camera one or two episodes back. But definitely not Cody from OCC and V Force Customs.


----------



## DanB

vertigo235 said:


> I found myself skipping right over the occ stuff
> 
> Im only ontrested in the pjr side of the show now.
> 
> I always thought that it was the kids that were immature but man sr sure is proving me wrong with every episode.


Thats what I do also. I hope the producers are getting the viewing habits data from Tivo


----------



## DanB

Sr should remember what he said about Vinnie -- "Everyone is replaceable." It applies to you also Sr.


----------



## gastrof

Cody isn't on the show because he got cheated on his appearances. He was in nearly 100 episodes before he left, and up to now has only been paid for about 30 of them.

OCC also took back the bike that Sr. gave Cody after helping him build it. 

Cody's suing OCC (and possibly Pilgrim films) for the money due him and for the value of the bike.

This might be why he's still over at Vinnie's (is still pictured at the V-Force website) and not at PJD. Probably no problem with him and Jr., but maybe with Pilgrim.


----------



## gastrof

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> ...Jason Poole is talented, but his a$$ wouldn't be working there if it weren't for the work that Junior did prior to Jason joining the company...


Even Jason, in response to the radio interview, admitted that Paulie was the one who, at the beginning, was the source of OCC's bike designs. Of course, by saying this he's suggesting the company can make it fine without Jr., but at least is admitting who it was who put OCC's designs "on the map".


----------



## bareyb

Gotta give Junior props for his newly inspired work ethic. I had a feeling once the money that was going down the drain was HIS he'd change his ways. As is usually the case, he's probably more like his Dad than he wants to admit. I think doing his own thing is going to be good for them both to see if from the other's perspective. 

I think on some level Senior has to be a little proud of him, even if he won't admit it publicly. I think a lot of his BS about Paul and Mikey having nothing to do with building the brand is just him posturing for the court case. I'd like to see senior do the right thing here and pay Paulie off. Let his kid spread his wings and fly. Or crash...


----------



## marksman

I am guessing Nubs falling out happened when they built the new world headquarters and I think Senior offered him the position to come work for him as an in house painter. What happened from there other than Nubs not wanting to do it, I don't know.

To me it seems like the show is back to the middle age formula. You have real bike building going on at PJD, and you have the Mikey comic relief/killing time happening at OCC. OCC has essentially turned into Mikey for the purposes of the show. I hope Senior does not figure it out too soon. 

I really liked seeing the work on the web bike. I have seen the final bike, and did not blow me away (probably looks better when I see it on tv then on small pictures from a distance), but I really liked the design and the work going into it.

I agree it is interesting to see Jr's work ethic, but I don't think Jr lacked a work ethic, I think he just avoided the shop because he didn't want to deal with his dad's behavior towards him all the time.

Also as I mentioned before, Sr.'s idea that the only way to run a business is to have everyone work from 7:00am to 5:00pm is dumb. Look what Paulie did with the power situation. They worked before and after the deal and that was that.

I think OCC is going to have issues with theme building going forward. Unless they can undercut PJRD, I don't know how most people would look at the two options, look at their latest work and pick to go with OCC for something like that.

For next week:



Spoiler



It is crazy they showed Lee coming back and apparently going to go work for Paul Jr, and then getting, seemingly, stolen, by Senior.


----------



## bareyb

I think as long as they both have a TV show, they will find plenty of customers who want their brand name on national TV. I think both companies are in big trouble once the shows are really off the air. Custom bike shops are doing very poorly these days... Here's hoping this new show has a good long run and things eventually work out well for all of them.


----------



## SullyND

Who was the younger painter they had (I think) between nubs previous stints? I remember he was pretty good too.


----------



## marksman

Justin I think? Justin I believe is also suing Orange County Choppers for using his artwork on T-Shirts and other items that they have sold.


----------



## SullyND

marksman said:


> Justin I think?


Yeah - Justin was his name. He does some really nice work.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

marksman said:


> Also as I mentioned before, Sr.'s idea that the only way to run a business is to have everyone work from 7:00am to 5:00pm is dumb. Look what Paulie did with the power situation. They worked before and after the deal and that was that.


Sr's issue is trust. He fundamentally thinks that if he isn't watching, the guys will stop working. That's why he insists on having them all there at the same time. He doesn't get the ides of empowering them to go out and work as they worm best. My grandfather ran a number of businesses over the years and his basic philosophy was to hire the best people and empower them to work hard. His job was to clear obstacles not monitor their work.


----------



## vertigo235

Lee inferred tonight that the reason he doesn't work for OCC anymore is because he didn't sign a contract. 

I sure hope that Rick didn't sign a no compete contract, but I'm afraid he has.


----------



## marksman

Yeah I was thinking about the contract thing. Looking back on how they had contracts for Mikey and Jr. it makes sense that the bad idea trickled down to the entire staff.

Not even a no compete, but does a motorcycle mechanic/builder need an employmeny contract? Seems unnecessary.

That being said, without further explanation, Lee seems like a major jerk off...

I suspect he thought he was going to just come up and screw around for a week and not actually have to work hard.


----------



## nataylor

Senior just comes off as a total ass. Junior might be lazy and a bit of diva, but that pales in comparison to Senior actively trying to screw up his son's business.


----------



## vertigo235

nataylor said:


> Senior just comes off as a total ass. Junior might be lazy and a bit of diva, but that pales in comparison to Senior actively trying to screw up his son's business.


Agreed


----------



## windracer

More bike building, less drama!

Like I said last week, the Paul Jr. side of the show is really taking me back to the early seasons of "American Chopper" when they focused on designing, fabricating, and putting together the bikes. It was fun to watch them put it together piece-by-piece, the problems they would have when the parts would come back from paint or powder-coating and then screws wouldn't fit and they'd have to drill things out, or use rubber mallets to pound in axles. All of that is back on the Paul Jr. side. 

At OCC, the bikes magically assemble themselves. They showed hardly any of the FBI bike build. A few minutes of the frame, and some basic tank planning, but no details on how they built the tank with the hinges. We saw the block of aluminum turn into the badge shape, but then the next time we see it it's already gold-plated and mounted on the fender. Instead of the build, I have to listen to Sr. talk about how it sucks that funding was pulled for the bike and now he has to pay for it himself.

And the whole Lee situation ... WTF? How much of this is Sr. and how much is being planned by the show's producers?


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

windracer said:


> And the whole Lee situation ... WTF? How much of this is Sr. and how much is being planned by the show's producers?


I don't know but it sure make Sr look like a class A dick.


----------



## Malcontent

IJustLikeTivo said:


> I don't know but it sure make Sr look like a class A dick.


Agreed. If not unethical then truly unprofessional. If you have nothing to fear then why be so aggressive on "stealing" employees. I wonder if Sr. was able to buy off Lee in the end? Perhaps cash for a no show job. What was that crap that Sr. said that Lee experienced in Jr. shop? Jr. showing up late and everyone just standing around waiting to be told what to do? With the tight deadline for finishing the two bikes, doesn't sound accurate to me. Leads me to believe Sr. was able to buy off Lee.

At least Sr. had to pay for that FBI bike out of his own pocket when the underwriter backed out. Wow, that was kind of a surprise. Sounds like it wasn't the first time that happened.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Malcontent said:


> At least Sr. had to pay for that FBI bike out of his own pocket when the underwriter backed out. Wow, that was kind of a surprise. Sounds like it wasn't the first time that happened.


Which raises and interesting legal issue. Not sure it's ok to reproduce federal logos without permission.

This is just like Jr and the possible bike for the Knight of Columbus except for the fact that Jr was smart enough to wait for the final approval. I loved Sr getting stuck with the bill. Yep, he's a smart business man allright.


----------



## nataylor

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Which raises and interesting legal issue. Not sure it's ok to reproduce federal logos without permission.


I think they had permission, the bike was commissioned by them and the local police.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

nataylor said:


> I think they had permission, the bike was commissioned by them and the local police.


Not if they didn't pay..... Sounded like the paperwork was never finished.


----------



## nataylor

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Not if they didn't pay..... Sounded like the paperwork was never finished.


They were never going to pay in the first place. Sounds like some other entity was underwriting the cost of the build, and Senior's foundation ended up picking up the bill.

http://newyork.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel10/nyfo080910.htm


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

nataylor said:


> They were never going to pay in the first place. Sounds like some other entity was underwriting the cost of the build, and Senior's foundation ended up picking up the bill.
> 
> http://newyork.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel10/nyfo080910.htm


Infragard? One of the dumber names ever.

I think the rest of that story is spin. Still, I like Sr getting stuck with the bill.


----------



## ahartman

So clearly, my spoiler of Rick leaving OCC in March was false since the unveil was in August and Rick was working on this bike. But I've found a couple of sources that say Rick started his own shop, too. Guess he's doing both, then?

If OCC isn't paying him a fortune, why in the world is he staying there? Exposure for when his shop takes off?

Every additional episode this season makes Sr. look like more of a ******bag. When you start messing with someone's livelihood as a 'joke', you're a turd. Plain and simple.

I still want to believe this is entirely scripted and he's not as much of a dick to his kids as the show would have us believe, but I just can't convince myself of that. I think he truly is a jerk.


----------



## nataylor

ahartman said:


> I still want to believe this is entirely scripted and he's not as much of a dick to his kids as the show would have us believe, but I just can't convince myself of that. I think he truly is a jerk.


If he's not a dick because it's real, he's a dick for letting someone script a roll that makes him look like a dick.


----------



## bareyb

marksman said:


> Yeah I was thinking about the contract thing. Looking back on how they had contracts for Mikey and Jr. it makes sense that the bad idea trickled down to the entire staff.
> 
> Not even a no compete, but does a motorcycle mechanic/builder need an employmeny contract? Seems unnecessary.
> 
> That being said, without further explanation, Lee seems like a major jerk off...
> 
> *I suspect he thought he was going to just come up and screw around for a week and not actually have to work hard.*


Looked to me like his work wasn't up to par as far as Junior was concerned, and he realized he was in over his head on national TV. Lee never struck me as much of a craftsman. He's more of the type of guy that Sr. likes. He's wicked FAST,and not all that detailed.


----------



## vertigo235

Well the show certainly made Lee look like the idiot here.


----------



## Gerryex

ahartman said:


> Every additional episode this season makes Sr. look like more of a ******bag. When you start messing with someone's livelihood as a 'joke', you're a turd. Plain and simple.


The more I watch of this season, the more disgusted I get with Sr!! Yeah, maybe some of it is scripted but I think Sr's true nature is coming out. Its one thing to become estranged from ALL of his sons (bad on many levels) but to actively go out of your way to sabotage his son's business is disgusting!!!!! And then to call it a game! Where is he coming from? I'm sure if Jr tried to interfer with OCC, Sr would have a fit! I'm almost tempted to stop watching but I want to see how Jr's business turns out and I hope its very successful!

Another post said that Jr's work ethic was really not so bad and that he probably showed up late to work at OCC because he didn't want to have to deal with Sr. I agree with that 100% as Jr is really putting in the effort now!!

Gerry


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

I'm surprised that no one has commented on the last episode. Then again, it's just more of Sr. looking like a jerk and Jr. just trying to start a business. Just constant bashing by Sr. and giving his son no credit at all. Both of the bikes he built were just as impressive, if not more so, as anything OCC has made in the last year or two. 

I can't wait until Rick leaves and goes to work for PJD, either as a contractor or an employee. It really seemed that he was interested in what PJD's bikes looked like.

But what REALLY caught my eye, was a huge screw up by the editors. Particularly someone failing to edit out or cover up a topless woman. Just before Junior takes the stage at Sturgis for the Geico bike unveil. There is a woman in the crowd that lifts her shirt. I'm not talking about some blurry picture of boobs. This woman was pretty close to the front of the crowd. VERY surprised that made it past the censors.


----------



## bareyb

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> I'm surprised that no one has commented on the last episode. Then again, it's just more of Sr. looking like a jerk and Jr. just trying to start a business. Just constant bashing by Sr. and giving his son no credit at all. Both of the bikes he built were just as impressive, if not more so, as anything OCC has made in the last year or two.
> 
> I can't wait until Rick leaves and goes to work for PJD, either as a contractor or an employee. It really seemed that he was interested in what PJD's bikes looked like.
> 
> *But what REALLY caught my eye, was a huge screw up by the editors. Particularly someone failing to edit out or cover up a topless woman. Just before Junior takes the stage at Sturgis for the Geico bike unveil. There is a woman in the crowd that lifts her shirt. I'm not talking about some blurry picture of boobs. This woman was pretty close to the front of the crowd. VERY surprised that made it past the censors.*


Dang. I'm glad I didn't delete the episode.


----------



## Eddief66

bareyb said:


> Dang. I'm glad I didn't delete the episode.


I did but it's easy enough to restore.


----------



## bareyb

bareyb said:


> Dang. I'm glad I didn't delete the episode.


Ah there she is! Right at 54:35. Nice boobs for a chick with glasses.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

bareyb said:


> Ah there she is! Right at 54:35. Nice boobs for a chick with glasses.


Damn. No way that's still in my deleted folder and I bet it's gone now in repeats. :-(


----------



## WhiskeyTango

I had to go back and get this from the RD folder to check it out. I didn't notice the first time I watched and had to watch that section 2 more times before I saw it. I'm guessing the editors didn't notice either. Or they DID notice and decided to give the audience a treat.


----------



## windracer

Ok, I'll admit it ... I went back to check this out too. Heh.


----------



## billboard_NE

It took me a couple of times to see it, but there it is! 

Now thats a ratings grabber.

My recording was the original airing on 10/7 at 9PM Eastern


----------



## vertigo235

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> I'm surprised that no one has commented on the last episode. Then again, it's just more of Sr. looking like a jerk and Jr. just trying to start a business. Just constant bashing by Sr. and giving his son no credit at all. Both of the bikes he built were just as impressive, if not more so, as anything OCC has made in the last year or two.
> 
> I can't wait until Rick leaves and goes to work for PJD, either as a contractor or an employee. It really seemed that he was interested in what PJD's bikes looked like.
> 
> But what REALLY caught my eye, was a huge screw up by the editors. Particularly someone failing to edit out or cover up a topless woman. Just before Junior takes the stage at Sturgis for the Geico bike unveil. There is a woman in the crowd that lifts her shirt. I'm not talking about some blurry picture of boobs. This woman was pretty close to the front of the crowd. VERY surprised that made it past the censors.


How on earth did you catch this?


----------



## bareyb

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Damn. No way that's still in my deleted folder and I bet it's gone now in repeats. :-(


Maybe someone will YouTube it. We can't be the only one's who have noticed this. Don't lose hope. Some perv will post it.


----------



## bobvr

NSFW link ..http://www.qbn.com/topics/642924/

I missed it when I watched the episode also.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

bobvr said:


> NSFW link ..http://www.qbn.com/topics/642924/
> 
> I missed it when I watched the episode also.


Wow, you have to be really looking. Not sure I would be looking in the background for something like that. We have some serious pervs here. ;-)


----------



## dilbert27

Just read on Paul Jr. twitter page that Chopper is moving back to Discovery Channel and its original Monday night time slot.

http://press.discovery.com/us/dsc/p...tuls-return-home-discovery-934/#mkcpgn=twdsc1

It appears that they will start of with 5 weeks worth of Last seasons American Chopper and then switch to American Chopper Sr. Vs Jr. with new episodes eventually air.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

The guide data doesn't agree with the press release. It shows stuff from a year or two ago.

It's not clear when the final episodes of the Jr vs Sr shows will air.


----------



## dilbert27

IJustLikeTivo said:


> The guide data doesn't agree with the press release. It shows stuff from a year or two ago.
> 
> It's not clear when the final episodes of the Jr vs Sr shows will air.


Supposedly they are going to show all of last years episodes over the next 5 weeks then go to the start of this season of Sr. Vs Jr. and then once caught up start showing the new episodes of Sr. Vs Jr. which will probably be the first of the year I guess before we get any more new episodes.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

vertigo235 said:


> How on earth did you catch this?


Part of it was just lucky timing. I just happened to look up from the computer at the right time. The other part is kind of habit from working security at concerts. You tend to pay attention to girls sitting on guys shoulders. If you know what I'm sayin.  so I guess part of it is just habit.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

IJustLikeTivo said:


> The guide data doesn't agree with the press release. It shows stuff from a year or two ago.
> 
> It's not clear when the final episodes of the Jr vs Sr shows will air.


I thought they said this past episode was the season finale.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> I thought they said this past episode was the season finale.


If it is, they left a few zillion questions unanswered.


----------



## gastrof

They did say it was the season finale.

I've also been told the show's coming back in the spring.

This would mean season seven is only eight episodes long, and season eight will be what airs next year.


----------



## vertigo235

IJustLikeTivo said:


> If it is, they left a few zillion questions unanswered.


Just like pretty much all other season finales right?


----------



## DanB

looks like my old Series 2 didnt record it as it appeared to be a duplicate for some reason (maybe same title name except part 2).

guess I'll have to try to find it somewhere.


----------



## Frylock

Anyone else happen to catch this special? Basically they pasted together content from the last season along with feedback from Sr. and Jr and Mikey into it. All of them came off even worse and more bitter than before. Sr. definitely clearly has not learned, and I cringed at quite a few things he said watching it. Mikey was the most surprising. He clearly has decided to take Paulie's side, and was a little ridiculous in his comments in the show I thought


----------



## DanB

yeah I saw it. Poor Senior. He really seems to be delusional at times. Got to feel sorry for the employees at both shops -- when the boss says "look at those four dumb f--ks" what's the employee going to do/say?

I also saw that Discovery advertised there'd be a new episode this Monday at 9pm, although its not showing in my guide data.


----------



## nataylor

Anyone know if this special is re-airing or available online? I missed it.


----------



## DanB

nataylor said:


> Anyone know if this special is re-airing or available online? I missed it.


No idea, but the website says full episodes are available on iTunes.


----------



## Frylock

It's Discovery. They re-air everything a million times!

I used to have hope that they would come around and kiss and make-up, and combine their talents, but it doesn't seem like either is going to make the first move anytime soon. Together they can build good bikes. Separately, it's just meh from both shops


----------



## nataylor

Frylock said:


> It's Discovery. They re-air everything a million times!


You'd think so, but I can't find any more showings in my TiVo data.

Was it titled something weird?


----------



## bareyb

nataylor said:


> You'd think so, but I can't find any more showings in my TiVo data.
> 
> Was it titled something weird?


I can't find a trace of it anywhere either. I checked Amazon, and the DSC website and it's nowhere to be found. I'd really like to see it. Hopefully someone can find it somewhere.


----------



## DanB

nataylor said:


> You'd think so, but I can't find any more showings in my TiVo data. Was it titled something weird?


"A Family Divided"


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

The full title was "American Chopper: Senior vs. Junior: A Family Divided" and no upcoming shows with that title.



DanB said:


> yeah I saw it. Poor Senior. He really seems to be delusional at times. Got to feel sorry for the employees at both shops -- when the boss says "look at those four dumb f--ks" what's the employee going to do/say?
> 
> I also saw that Discovery advertised there'd be a new episode this Monday at 9pm, although its not showing in my guide data.


I still think that Senior is the major problem here. He just comes off as such a prick.

I saw the preview as well, but can find no trace in the program data using my ARWL.


----------



## Frylock

I had to manually set it up. It also had no description for the episode when it recorded.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Frylock said:


> I had to manually set it up. It also had no description for the episode when it recorded.


I'd do that but there are no new evening episodes that appear to be new. Weird to advertise a program that doesn't appear anywhere.

I was watching an old show from 2004 where they built a bike for Lance Armstrong and the livestrong foundation. So great to see when they build quality bikes as opposed to what Senior thinks is good lately.


----------



## ahartman

I had to set up a new season pass - the show apparently moved from TLC back to Discovery.

New season starts Monday 12/6 - the Family Divided show airs after the premiere.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

ahartman said:


> New season starts Monday 12/6 - the Family Divided show airs after the premiere.


Do you have guide data for that? I just checked and its not in my online guide. Discovery has "Get out Alive", "Brewmasters", and "Behind Bars" scheduled on the 6th starting at 9pm.


----------



## ThreeSoFar'sBro

Discovery Channel's website is showing it Monday at 10 pm. My local guide data is also showing Brew Masters at that time. I might just set it to record that, just in case.


----------



## vertigo235

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> Do you have guide data for that? I just checked and its not in my online guide. Discovery has "Get out Alive", "Brewmasters", and "Behind Bars" scheduled on the 6th starting at 9pm.


I have it on directv hr20


----------



## ahartman

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> Do you have guide data for that? I just checked and its not in my online guide. Discovery has "Get out Alive", "Brewmasters", and "Behind Bars" scheduled on the 6th starting at 9pm.


Yeah, I do - haven't checked the other DVRs (I have DTV), though.


----------



## Rainy Dave

bareyb said:


> I can't find a trace of it anywhere either. I checked Amazon, and the DSC website and it's nowhere to be found. I'd really like to see it. Hopefully someone can find it somewhere.


From another forum I frequent

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=TWRS80KX


----------



## SeanC

Rainy Dave said:


> From another forum I frequent
> 
> http://www.megavideo.com/?d=TWRS80KX


tyvm!


----------



## innocentfreak

Zap2it is showing it at 9:00 on 12/6 now on DSC.

Sorry thought you were talking about the new episode and not the special A family divided.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

innocentfreak said:


> Zap2it is showing it at 9:00 on 12/6 now on DSC.
> 
> Sorry thought you were talking about the new episode and not the special A family divided.


We were actually talking about both. 

My TiVo guide data is now showing the new episode at 9 on Discovery. The replay of the Family Divided episode following it.

from the show description "PJD is swamped with emails from people interested in his bikes"

Hopefully 2 things are happening. 1) Those people are willing to pay for those bikes and 2) it really chaps Senior's butt!


----------



## windracer

I had to set up a new SP for these new episodes on Discovery on Monday nights ... thanks for the tip.

My Guide data is strange, though. There's a Chicago Blackhawks bike coming up and Part 2 seems to be airing before Part 1?


----------



## dilbert27

Looks like they are ditching the Sr. Vs Jr. in the show name and just going back to American Chopper.

http://weblogs.variety.com/on_the_a...discovery-channel.html?query=american+chopper


----------



## Gerryex

No comments on the new episode?

I thought it was very interesting and continues to show what a dick SR is! It seems he doesn't even watch the show as the earilier episodes clearly showed JR coming in very early in the morning and staying very late at night working WITH Vinnie to finish the two bikes in time for Sturgis (sp?). According to SR, JR hardly worked on the bikes with Vinnie doing almost all the work and Vinnie being upset about that. NOTHING at all in the earlier episodes nor this episode supports that.

For SR not to go to JR's wedding was really lousy. SR keeps saying that he is willing to try to get together yet it always seems to be on his terms ONLY and nothing else.

What also surprised me is that SR keeps on saying that there should be no reason for Mikey to be mad at him and tries to reach out to him. BUT, I remember very distinctly that at some point after the split between JR and SR, there was an international trip planned where Mikey was still supposed to go when SR suddenly decided that Mikey shouldn't go. While I always wondered what Mikey actually contributed to the business and all the trips (other than comic relief!) but if it was established that he was part of the team and always went then it was a shock to Mikey when he was told he couldn't go. In fact Mikey was visibly upset on the episode where he was told he couldn't go on the trip.

The second hour was mostly them all talking about all the stuff, and I again found this very interesting in that SR seems to think things are a certain way, but in reality things are quite different.

Lastly, Disc channel keeps saying that new episodes start next Monday at 9 PM, and I have it set to record but I think its an older episode. Does anyone know when the new episodes really start?

Gerry


----------



## vertigo235

Didn't the new episodes start on Monday?


----------



## innocentfreak

They ran one this past monday.


----------



## SeanC

Gerryex said:


> What also surprised me is that SR keeps on saying that there should be no reason for Mikey to be mad at him and tries to reach out to him. BUT, I remember very distinctly that at some point after the split between JR and SR, there was an international trip planned where Mikey was still supposed to go when SR suddenly decided that Mikey shouldn't go. While I always wondered what Mikey actually contributed to the business and all the trips (other than comic relief!) but if it was established that he was part of the team and always went then it was a shock to Mikey when he was told he couldn't go. In fact Mikey was visibly upset on the episode where he was told he couldn't go on the trip.


I believe that was Dubai (it was definitely in the middle east), and once they got there the first thing their host asked them was "Where is Mikey?"


----------



## Malcontent

SeanC said:


> I believe that was Dubai (it was definitely in the middle east), and once they got there the first thing their host asked them was "Where is Mikey?"


Yeah. I remember that the OCC manager Steve didn't want Mikey to go. I recall Steve's reasoning was that Mikey would likely do something to embarrass them.
Your right, after greeting each other, the customers asked "where's Mikey"?

In my opinion they mismanaged Mikey. They kept trying to fit him into company like a regular 9-5 employee. They should have used Mikey exclusively as a marketing tool. Don't try make him punch a clock and sit in a office or work in the shop. They should have sent him on tour around the country/world making public appearances at OCC dealerships and other events. Just kept him traveling around promoting OCC.

I recall the top 4 people in management being called "The Four Horsemen" by employees. Rick even talked about it. I'm guessing Sr. was/is included in the Horsemen. They talked about how when they would be in another area of the shop helping someone out, one of the Horsemen would immediately question what/why they were doing there. They were relieved that all the Horsemen were out of the country and they could relax a little.

I wonder how much influence the executives around Sr. had on the break up. If any of them were whispering in Sr. ear.


----------



## SeanC

Malcontent said:


> In my opinion they mismanaged Mikey. They kept trying to fit him into company like a regular 9-5 employee. They should have used Mikey exclusively as a marketing tool. Don't try make him punch a clock and sit in a office or work in the shop. They should have sent him on tour around the country/world making public appearances at OCC dealerships and other events. Just kept him traveling around promoting OCC.


I think there's a pretty good marketing book that could be written about Mikey and OCC, hell maybe even have a graduate level class devoted to the subject "How to completely destroy your best marketing tool."


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

SeanC said:


> I think there's a pretty good marketing book that could be written about Mikey and OCC, hell maybe even have a graduate level class devoted to the subject "How to completely destroy your best marketing tool."


Exactly. OCC has nothing left to sell. All their bikes are just crap bolted together usually with no fabrication aside from a new tank. And, most of what they do they appear to be doing for free. There is no way this foundation paid them, it was done as a fundraiser which means they gave them the bike.


----------



## Gerryex

vertigo235 said:


> Didn't the new episodes start on Monday?





innocentfreak said:


> They ran one this past monday.


Yes, there was a new episode on 12/6 followed by a new special episode where they mostly talked about the family problems. There's supposed to be a new episode on 12/13, but when I read the summary it seemed like it was an old episode. But re-reading it I now think it is a new episode. Either way I'm recording it but I was just curious!

Gerry


----------



## ahartman

I thought the way Jr. handled Odie was pretty cool. I think he's very aware of how different he wants his shop to be run - it'll be interesting to see if he can avoid going too far towards 'the nice guy'.

While Jr. definitely isn't without fault, Sr. is a complete tool and will die a very lonely man if he doesn't realize he's the commonality in all of his broken relationships.

Oh, and I thought the Fallen Heroes bike looked like crap.


----------



## jbernardis

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Exactly. OCC has nothing left to sell. All their bikes are just crap bolted together usually with no fabrication aside from a new tank. And, most of what they do they appear to be doing for free. There is no way this foundation paid them, it was done as a fundraiser which means they gave them the bike.


Did you see the recent episode of Meteorite Men? Their (relatively new) OCC Bike broke down and needed to be hauled off to be repaired. I too get the opinion that OCC quality is not too high.


----------



## windracer

I understand people get emotional about their pets, but seeing Sr cry over his dog's impending aputation, compared to the hard-a** that wouldn't even go to his son's wedding, wow. 

And then he has to tell everyone in the shop how Jr missed the unveil date. For someone who's not worried about competition he sure seems like he needs to continually remind people that Jr is not a threat.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Exactly. OCC has nothing left to sell. All their bikes are just crap bolted together usually with no fabrication aside from a new tank. And, most of what they do they appear to be doing for free. There is no way this foundation paid them, it was done as a fundraiser which means they gave them the bike.


I missed this episode but you are right about the bikes being crap. The Blackhawks bike was basically just a stock production bike with a different gas tank. Really? That's what their 'custom' bikes have become?


----------



## Rainy Dave

Doesn't Sr (or his wife) watch the show and think "Boy, I'm coming across as a real *ss. Maybe I should rethink what I'm doing"? I know some of it is editing, but it can't all be.


----------



## Frylock

windracer said:


> I understand people get emotional about their pets, but seeing Sr cry over his dog's impending aputation, compared to the hard-a** that wouldn't even go to his son's wedding, wow.
> 
> And then he has to tell everyone in the shop how Jr missed the unveil date. For someone who's not worried about competition he sure seems like he needs to continually remind people that Jr is not a threat.


Sr loves that dog more than his kids. Hence why the dog is tattooed on his arm, and not his kids. The dog doesn't give him a hard time, and has never left, so I am sure he feels the dog is a better friend.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

Frylock said:


> Sr loves that dog more than his kids. Hence why the dog is tattooed on his arm, and not his kids. The dog doesn't give him a hard time, and has never left, so I am sure he feels the dog is a better friend.


Actually, Sr. has his sons names tattooed as well. But the dog was there first and is way more prominent.

ahartman's right. The fallen heroes bike looked mediocre at best. I'm pretty sure that if Jr had designed it, he wouldn't have taken such an easy route to mount the gun. It not only looked like it was thrown together, but it would make the gun difficult to dismount.


----------



## Hansky

For those interested in the lawsuit by these clowns.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Hansky said:


> For those interested in the lawsuit by these clowns.


Which leaves them all nowhere. Sr won on the suit to force a sale which wasn't really contested. Jr win on the issue of how they determine the value or more precisely how they hadn't agreed on that issue.

Now thye have to hire a truly independent valuation company. The valuation is a non trivial task given that the balance sheet probably looks pretty grim and that the true value of the company is the branding which I bet Sr had valued at zero. My college roommate does this for a living and he thinks the cash value is probably close to nothing but the brand is still worth a lot. Add to that a likely lawsuit that Sr has willfully diminished the value by fraud and mismanagment and I don't see this ending any time soon.


----------



## Hansky

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Which leaves them all nowhere. Sr won on the suit to force a sale which wasn't really contested. Jr win on the issue of how they determine the value or more precisely how they hadn't agreed on that issue.


You may have misread to some extent. The entire option was apparently contested, not just the method of valuation, and the appellate court held that the option was unenforceable. Thus, as discussed in the blog, the option esssentially never existed, and before they get back to the stage of a valuation of the stock they actually have to find another legal avenue to even get to that stage (such as, for example, a dissolution).



> The valuation is a non trivial task given that the balance sheet probably looks pretty grim and that the true value of the company is the branding which I bet Sr had valued at zero. My college roommate does this for a living and he thinks the cash value is probably close to nothing but the brand is still worth a lot. Add to that a likely lawsuit that Sr has willfully diminished the value by fraud and mismanagment and I don't see this ending any time soon.


I am not sure what you mean by "cash value." The liquidation value may or may not be positive. It depends on their level of debt and what is secured, and by what assets. Certainly, they have assets and the licensing alone might be the most valuable asset even if they closed today. The value of the stock may or may not be positive, as again it depends on the leval of debt, cash flow, the restrictions, etc.


----------



## bareyb

Did you guys get a look at Junior's counter claims? I can't copy and paste because it's a PDF but it looks to me like Senior is really just ripping him blind while all this other stuff is going on. Scan down to article 11 for the actual allegations. Looks like Sr. is playing stock games (self dealing) and is in general looting the company money as fast as he can. Man this is ugly... 

http://www.nybusinessdivorce.com/uploads/file/JuniorCounterclaims.pdf


----------



## Gerryex

Hi ALL,

The last episode was good, but nothing really revealing.

I've been following this show almost from the beginning and I don't remember something. Last season (or the season before) Jr and Sr had their super blowout ending with Sr firing Jr. After that happened didn't they both meet a couple of times and kind-of decide that it was better off that Jr goes his own way and I thought I remembered that Sr even wished him well. Then after the next batch of new shows started it seems that Sr and Jr are at WAR, with Sr doing everything he can to make Jr fail. Part of it is the suit but Sr was also interfering with Jr getting equipment.

When and how did things get SO intense between Sr and Jr, and was it shown on an episode or did it happen between seasons?

Thanks,
Gerry


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Hansky said:


> You may have misread to some extent. The entire option was apparently contested, not just the method of valuation, and the appellate court held that the option was unenforceable. Thus, as discussed in the blog, the option esssentially never existed, and before they get back to the stage of a valuation of the stock they actually have to find another legal avenue to even get to that stage (such as, for example, a dissolution).
> 
> I am not sure what you mean by "cash value." The liquidation value may or may not be positive. It depends on their level of debt and what is secured, and by what assets. Certainly, they have assets and the licensing alone might be the most valuable asset even if they closed today. The value of the stock may or may not be positive, as again it depends on the leval of debt, cash flow, the restrictions, etc.


PJ didn't really have an issue with selling PS his share or at least that's what he said in the show. I imagine getting that thrown out was just the bath water since the real issue is that no method of valuation was agreed making it null and void effectively.

As for the value. By cash value I meant a strict accounting of liabilitites and direct assets. On that basis I expect they are negative since they borrowed heavenly to expand. The rest is the marketing value. Btw, as a privately held company the stock has no share price since it isn't traded. The only value it has is as a percentage of the overall value of the business which is the contended issue.

I expect that PS is robbing the assets during the court battle as appears to be the basis of PJs countersuit. I said that would happen in an earlier post.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

bareyb said:


> Did you guys get a look at Junior's counter claims? I can't copy and paste because it's a PDF but it looks to me like Senior is really just ripping him blind while all this other stuff is going on. Scan down to article 11 for the actual allegations. Looks like Sr. is playing stock games (self dealing) and is in general looting the company money as fast as he can. Man this is ugly...
> 
> http://www.nybusinessdivorce.com/uploads/file/JuniorCounterclaims.pdf


Damn, that's uglier than I imagined.


----------



## DanB

cant say, but looking at the home(s), car(s), and livestock at Sr's house (yaks and alpacas?) I wouldnt put it past Sr.


----------



## DanB

I wonder if Sr. (or someone else at OCC) actually told Rick that


Spoiler



he'd go to jail if he went to visit Paul Jr's shop


 or if Rick was "fabricating."


----------



## vertigo235

Was there a new episode last night? My DVR didn't pick one up.


----------



## DanB

vertigo235 said:


> Was there a new episode last night? My DVR didn't pick one up.


yes. It may repeat on Thursday.


----------



## windracer

vertigo235 said:


> Was there a new episode last night? My DVR didn't pick one up.


Yeah, it was part 2 of the Chicago Blackhawks bike.


----------



## Gerryex

Gerryex said:


> Hi ALL,
> 
> The last episode was good, but nothing really revealing.
> 
> I've been following this show almost from the beginning and I don't remember something. Last season (or the season before) Jr and Sr had their super blowout ending with Sr firing Jr. After that happened didn't they both meet a couple of times and kind-of decide that it was better off that Jr goes his own way and I thought I remembered that Sr even wished him well. Then after the next batch of new shows started it seems that Sr and Jr are at WAR, with Sr doing everything he can to make Jr fail. Part of it is the suit but Sr was also interfering with Jr getting equipment.
> 
> When and how did things get SO intense between Sr and Jr, and was it shown on an episode or did it happen between seasons?
> 
> Thanks,
> Gerry


BUMP! Anyone?

Gerry


----------



## vertigo235

Have you been watching the same show? Things have always been stressed between them. I guess you missed the season where sr fired jr and jr spend a few episodes opening a boutique with his gf and designing grills (which was of course was mostly due to his no compete contact).


----------



## vertigo235

Oh and they are mainly at war because jr owns 20%of occ and sr doesn't want to give him anything for it.


----------



## Gerryex

vertigo235 said:


> Have you been watching the same show? Things have always been stressed between them. I guess you missed the season where sr fired jr and jr spend a few episodes opening a boutique with his gf and designing grills (which was of course was mostly due to his no compete contact).





vertigo235 said:


> Oh and they are mainly at war because jr owns 20%of occ and sr doesn't want to give him anything for it.


Yes, I saw the season where Jr was opening a boutique with his girlfriend, and where he was designing a grill for Coleman. And yes, I know Jr owns 20% of OCC and Sr wants it back for zero money.

But with all that tension I also remember Jr and Sr getting together at least a couple of times after Jr was fired and talking about things and that in the long run it would be better for Jr go his own way. I think at one of those get togethers Sr even wished Jr well in what ever business venture he was into.

But then either this season or the last when new episodes resumed it seems that they are at all out WAR!! The only thing I can see that happened between seasons was that Sr wanted to buy Jr out and that lead to the suit and things started to get nasty. But I was just wondering if there was anything else that lead to the war. Its one thing to have a difference of opinion on how to run a business and then have the parties go their separate ways, even for a father and son. But to have one party actively try to interfeer with the business of the other seems to be WAY over board.

Anyway, I think I've seen all the episodes but just wanted to see if I was missing anything that contributed to the war!

Thanks,
Gerry


----------



## modnar

I can't figure out why, after years of public appearances, Paul Sr. isn't able to speak in public better than he does. 

Also...isn't Sr. in recovery from drug addiction years ago? He mentioned sleeping pills helping him sleep while he was worried about his dog, and I thought sleeping pills would definitely be no-no for a recovering addict.


----------



## Malcontent

modnar said:


> Also...isn't Sr. in recovery from drug addiction years ago? He mentioned sleeping pills helping him sleep while he was worried about his dog, and I thought sleeping pills would definitely be no-no for a recovering addict.


No, it was alcohol. Last season Sr. mentioned that it was his 25 year anniversary of being sober. One of the guys in the shop asked if he went into a program, he said he did it cold turkey.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

I just watched the last two episodes. God what a tool Sr is. He just loves to find fault with anything his son does while at the same time childishly blowing doors apart and killing effigies os Jr. He is toxic and they would all be better of with him out of their lives.


----------



## tripmac

It seems he really wants to dwell on the fact that Jr is not in the shop. I know at one point Jr was out meeting with potential customers, so that would be good for Jr to do, right?


----------



## modnar

tripmac said:


> It seems he really wants to dwell on the fact that Jr is not in the shop. I know at one point Jr was out meeting with potential customers, so that would be good for Jr to do, right?


That's just another symptom of Sr's short-sightedness...just like he always complained when Jr and crew took a little time to get something creative done.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

modnar said:


> That's just another symptom of Sr's short-sightedness...just like he always complained when Jr and crew took a little time to get something creative done.


And yet there is no problem with Sr closing the shop to go for a ride and the stop for a session of lying to the crowd. What really sad is listening to Sr talk about Jr taking credit for other peoples work. I think he has himself and Jr backwards. Sr never did ANY work and still doesn't.

BTW what's with the mangerie? Scottish longhair cattle! Alpacas.... What OCC acct did they come out of. BTW I assume Sr arranged a free transplant. Is he reporting that outlay as salary?

What a disgusting, dishonest and passive aggressive tool he is.

Interesting that the analyst knew about the Jr effigy launch. Wonder if Miley told him.


----------



## Malcontent

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Interesting that the analyst knew about the Jr effigy launch. Wonder if Miley told him.


I'd bet money it was the producers of the series that told him. Just to stir things up. The crew that is filming Jr. probably told the crew that is filming Sr.

Mikey isn't talking to Sr. at all. Maybe an email asking Sr. to a therapist with him.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

IJustLikeTivo said:


> And yet there is no problem with Sr closing the shop to go for a ride and the stop for a session of lying to the crowd. What really sad is listening to Sr talk about Jr taking credit for other peoples work. I think he has himself and Jr backwards. Sr never did ANY work and still doesn't.
> 
> BTW what's with the mangerie? Scottish longhair cattle! Alpacas.... What OCC acct did they come out of. BTW I assume Sr arranged a free transplant. Is he reporting that outlay as salary?
> 
> What a disgusting, dishonest and passive aggressive tool he is.
> 
> Interesting that the analyst knew about the Jr effigy launch. Wonder if Miley told him.


Good points. Senior was constantly telling Junior how to design bikes. Screwing with Jr's concept and taking credit for stuff that he never so much as turned a wrench on.

I told my wife that I'll bet Senior trades a nice & shiny bike for a hair transplant!

The therapist might have seen the Junior effigy episode. Since it probably aired about the time that episode was filmed.


----------



## Malcontent

Looks like Nubs is working out of his garage at home now. I wonder if he closed his storefront business?

I noted that Rick commented how nice it was to actually fabricate at tank since it had been awhile since he did it last. Sounds like OCC is just assembling bikes with prefab off the self parts for a long while now. Most of their recent builds had little fabrication. 

When Rick isn't there no one else seems to be skilled enough at fabrication to get much work done. Sr. comes out to help fabricate.


----------



## modnar

An episode or two ago, Rick even mentioned that they were essentially building a "production bike" with some small changes to it. 

Sr no longer has a relationship with any of his sons and has run-off at least painters Justin and Nubs and, of course, Vinnie. How does he not see that he is the common link here?

He seems to have so little personality, I'm not sure how his wife can stand to be around him.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

modnar said:


> An episode or two ago, Rick even mentioned that they were essentially building a "production bike" with some small changes to it.
> 
> Sr no longer has a relationship with any of his sons and has run-off at least painters Justin and Nubs and, of course, Vinnie. How does he not see that he is the common link here?
> 
> He seems to have so little personality, *I'm not sure how his wife can stand to be around him*.


Money.

Sr is pretty toxic. I know that his builder's can't buy what he says. Rick, at least, knows that Paul Jr worked as hard as any of them and did ALL of the design work at first. Poole was only there for about a year before Jr left.

Sr just blocks out anything that doesn't support his story and the endless trash talking about Jr is just sad as heck. I can't imagine how he can say crap like that and still maintain that he has any desire to have a relationship with his kids. The two aren't compatible. Sr is certainly verbally abusive to nearly everyone and maybe physically since both Jr and Mikey don't feel safe in the same room. If he spent as much time on his family as he does on working out to keep those arms, he'd be a lot better off.

BTW, his was also sued by orange county ironworks ( his old company, now owned by the other son Danie) for converting property and then taking it for himself.


----------



## Gerryex

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Sr is pretty toxic. I know that his builder's can't buy what he says. Rick, at least, knows that Paul Jr worked as hard as any of them and did ALL of the design work at first. Poole was only there for about a year before Jr left.


Yes!!

Doesn't Sr watch any of the old episodes? Was Jr involved "wrench-on" with all aspects of a bike build - of course not. But was he quite involved in its build - absolutely yes. There were many scenes of Jr working with Vinnie on a particular part of a bike build, and many scenes with Jr working on a gas tank, handlebars, etc. Was Jr the PRIMARY source of the design with Jason being the draftsman drawing up the dseign and taking direction from Jr - yes, that what Jason's job was. Did Jason suggest some design elements - yes, but again it was up to Jr to execute the design of the bike and some of Jason's ideas were used while some were not. Did Jr come into the shop later than he should - certainly. But was EVERY SINGLE bike finished on time - YES!

So Sr's memory of how the previous bikes were built is seriously flawed! And yes there is a common theme of Sr being estranged with ALL his sons, divorced his first wife, and according to another post, is being sued by another son owning the iron works business. The common theme is SR!!!

One thing that Jr, as a business owner, definitely screwed up for the carports bike build. Jr did not know that Nub didn't know when the painting had to be done. That was a SERIOUS mistake, and when Jr was saying to the camera the he was surprised that Nub didn't know, he should have admitted that it was his responsibility to MAKE SURE Nub knew of the deadline.

Still, the bike was done on time and was a big hit.

Gerry


----------



## Frylock

Gerryex said:


> Did Jr come into the shop later than he should - certainly. But was EVERY SINGLE bike finished on time - YES!


But was it finished because Sr. was on his case, and was the one making sure the bikes were done on time? The being on his case being what Jr. was always complaining about?



Gerryex said:


> Still, the bike was done on time and was a big hit.


But it wasn't done on time. That was the point. In less than 4 builds, Jr. is already late at delivering a product. And why was it late? Because he tried to turn over the responsibility to a kid who wanted to do the design, but not the execution.

The problem is that they really do need each other. Sr. is a taskmaster, and makes sure work gets done. But he's not a designer, and Poole is not as strong a designer as Sr. is. On the flip side, Jr. is a great designer, but an awful businessman. He doesn't want to consistently put in the time and hours to run the business the way it should be run.

Sr. has a lot of flaws, no doubt. But Jr. IMHO is just as much to blame for this. Mikey is a great example. I really do think that Jr. is manipulating Mikey to not talk with Sr. Sr. has no beef with Mikey. Sure, he kicked him out, but surprise surprise, so did Jr. All 3 sons have different issues with their Dad. They all need to work out their own personal differences instead of trying to lump all 3 into 1 big issue. Sure, Sr. is at the heart of much of it. But it's not all the same issue.

As for his first divorce, to be fair, he has stated time and time again he got heavy into drug and alcohol abuse, which seemed to be the downfall of his first marriage. His worst fear was that his sons would have the same addiction problems, which we have seen both do. There is a lot more 'like Father like Son' than any of the sons want to admit...


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Frylock said:


> But was it finished because Sr. was on his case, and was the one making sure the bikes were done on time? The being on his case being what Jr. was always complaining about?
> 
> But it wasn't done on time. That was the point. In less than 4 builds, Jr. is already late at delivering a product. And why was it late? Because he tried to turn over the responsibility to a kid who wanted to do the design, but not the execution.
> 
> The problem is that they really do need each other. Sr. is a taskmaster, and makes sure work gets done. But he's not a designer, and Poole is not as strong a designer as Sr. is. On the flip side, Jr. is a great designer, but an awful businessman. He doesn't want to consistently put in the time and hours to run the business the way it should be run.
> 
> Sr. has a lot of flaws, no doubt. But Jr. IMHO is just as much to blame for this. Mikey is a great example. I really do think that Jr. is manipulating Mikey to not talk with Sr. Sr. has no beef with Mikey. Sure, he kicked him out, but surprise surprise, so did Jr. All 3 sons have different issues with their Dad. They all need to work out their own personal differences instead of trying to lump all 3 into 1 big issue. Sure, Sr. is at the heart of much of it. But it's not all the same issue.
> 
> As for his first divorce, to be fair, he has stated time and time again he got heavy into drug and alcohol abuse, which seemed to be the downfall of his first marriage. His worst fear was that his sons would have the same addiction problems, which we have seen both do. There is a lot more 'like Father like Son' than any of the sons want to admit...


Sr was never the designer in the early bike. Never.

Your timeline is confused. The painting with Nubs never held up delivery on the the current bike which was discussed ( Carolina Carports). There was a hold up on the quad last week but that was a result of Paul allowing the kid some time to learn. He now knows not to do that, it didn't cause a problem with the client so there isn't an issue.

The only reason Sr makes all the dates now is that they are delivering stock bikes with tiny mods, not custom choppers. The need to change the name form Orange County Choppers to Orange County off the Shelf bikes.


----------



## Hansky

IJustLikeTivo said:


> M
> BTW, his was also sued by orange county ironworks ( his old company, now owned by the other son Danie) for converting property and then taking it for himself.


I do not believe this is correct.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Hansky said:


> I do not believe this is correct.


I misread what it said on wikipedia. OCC and OC Ironworks were sued by a third party ( Turner construction ) who won a judgement. Lots of shenanigans going on.


----------



## Hansky

IJustLikeTivo said:


> I misread what it said on wikipedia. OCC and OC Ironworks were sued by a third party ( Turner construction ) who won a judgement. Lots of shenanigans going on.


They were sued by the Bankruptcy trustee, after Turner got its judgment and the company filed a Chapter 7 case. It was the Trustee making the allegations.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Hansky said:


> They were sued by the Bankruptcy trustee, after Turner got its judgment and the company filed a Chapter 7 case. It was the Trustee making the allegations.


Ironically, it appears that the same allegations are in Pjr's counterclaims in the lawsuit with his father.


----------



## Frylock

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Sr was never the designer in the early bike. Never.
> 
> Your timeline is confused. The painting with Nubs never held up delivery on the the current bike which was discussed ( Carolina Carports). There was a hold up on the quad last week but that was a result of Paul allowing the kid some time to learn. He now knows not to do that, it didn't cause a problem with the client so there isn't an issue.
> 
> The only reason Sr makes all the dates now is that they are delivering stock bikes with tiny mods, not custom choppers. The need to change the name form Orange County Choppers to Orange County off the Shelf bikes.


Sorry, I was referencing both episodes. Sr was never the designer, no. He was always the business guy. He had Paulie as the designer, and replaced him with Poole.

This week's episode does seem to explain why Sr. dumped Nub. I have no doubt he didn't like Nub's "I'll get to it 2 weeks from now when I HAVE to do it".

He was late on the quad because he allowed a kid to control things. And then with this bike he (or someone at PJD didn't let Nub know the deadline). Again, it seems that there is not enough business sense and communication going on there. That always was Sr.'s job. They need someone at PJD to run the day to day business. And whomever they have now doing it sucks at doing it!

And yes, the bikes they do now are all stock. But back when Jr. worked there, and it was not stock, they never missed a deadline either. Why? because of Sr.


----------



## modnar

Frylock said:


> Sorry, I was referencing both episodes. Sr was never the designer, no. He was always the business guy. He had Paulie as the designer, and replaced him with Poole.


I think Poole was originally just supposed to "help" with design, putting Jr's designs on paper so everyone could get a more concrete picture of what Jr was imagining.


> This week's episode does seem to explain why Sr. dumped Nub. I have no doubt he didn't like Nub's "I'll get to it 2 weeks from now when I HAVE to do it".


From what I've read elsewhere online (so take that for what it's worth), Sr. gave Nubs an ultimatum to either become OCC's in-house painter or not get anymore OCC work. 


> He was late on the quad because he allowed a kid to control things. And then with this bike he (or someone at PJD didn't let Nub know the deadline). Again, it seems that there is not enough business sense and communication going on there. That always was Sr.'s job. They need someone at PJD to run the day to day business. And whomever they have now doing it sucks at doing it!


They're just getting started, so I don't see any major issues other than the typical things one learns when starting a business. I'm sure Paul recognizes he probably gave Odie way too much freedom on the quad.


> And yes, the bikes they do now are all stock. But back when Jr. worked there, and it was not stock, they never missed a deadline either. Why? because of Sr.


Maybe. My complaint is that Sr's occupation with the deadline seems to override anything else going on. His crew could be working on something incredible for a bike, but just because Sr. doesn't see the progress he decided he wanted to see one day, he blows up about them not doing anything.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Frylock said:


> And yes, the bikes they do now are all stock. But back when Jr. worked there, and it was not stock, they never missed a deadline either. Why? because of Sr.


If anything, I would think that Sr acting like a D&*k slowed them down not sped them up.

Regardless, the issue of meeting or not meeting dates is probably made up for the purpose of the show. In any business like this, you can always add more labor if a timeline is really serious. The fact that after 10 years, they still "appear" to be barely making dates, means that it's a fiction not a fact. Anyone in business for 10 years certainly knows pretty well how long things will take.


----------



## DanB

modnar said:


> From what I've read elsewhere online (so take that for what it's worth), Sr. gave Nubs an ultimatum to either become OCC's in-house painter or not get anymore OCC work.


I dont follow the stuff online, but from the last season of Sr v Jr it sounded like there was a problem between Jr and Nubs which I dont recall being shown/explained in the previous seasons.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

DanB said:


> I dont follow the stuff online, but from the last season of Sr v Jr it sounded like there was a problem between Jr and Nubs which I dont recall being shown/explained in the previous seasons.


In Srs head, anything that is bad was due to something Jr did. If that were really true, would nubby be working with Jr?


----------



## DanB

IJustLikeTivo said:


> In Srs head, anything that is bad was due to something Jr did. If that were really true, would nubby be working with Jr?


I believe Nubs voices his trepidations about working with Jr again in one of the first shows of this season, after Jr gets the shop and Vinnie comes onboard.


----------



## vertigo235

Nubs definitely showed some reservations working for Jr., but it wasn't clear why. He just said something along the lines of "because of what went down over at OCC", we don't really know what that was. 

However since he is considered working with Jr. I have to assume that "whatever went down over at OCC", Jr. didn't play a big role in that. It was likely one of the managers or Sr. that caused that falling out.


----------



## jeepair

I believe Nubs was the painter at the start of the series, then they left and went with another guy. I thought they were both extremely talented. Then with no notice they went back to Nubs. Very soon after that they brought the painting inhouse.

SR talking with the OCC guys on the side of the road... boy it sure seemed one sided didn't it. 

SR should have had a light click in his head when he told the psychologist, "I don't have a relation with any of my 3 sons" Or did he say any of his children as I think he has a daugher too....


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

jeepair said:


> I believe Nubs was the painter at the start of the series, then they left and went with another guy. I thought they were both extremely talented. Then with no notice they went back to Nubs. Very soon after that they brought the painting inhouse.
> 
> SR talking with the OCC guys on the side of the road... boy it sure seemed one sided didn't it.
> 
> SR should have had a light click in his head when he told the psychologist, "I don't have a relation with any of my 3 sons" Or did he say any of his children as I think he has a daugher too....


I think no one knows if he talks with his daughter. She clearly decided early on to avoid being on the show. You also don't see his mother anymore. I wonder if he's on the outs with her as well.


----------



## Rkkeller

I don't know really. I haven't seen any of these recent shows but I always disliked the son and liked the dad. The dad has been around for tens of years involved in bikes in some way or the other and the son, while have some great designs and ideas, seemed to take everything for granted and walk around and do things when he wanted. The dad seemed like the bad guy as he always had to keep Paulie on track and on time.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

Rkkeller said:


> I don't know really. I haven't seen any of these recent shows but I always disliked the son and liked the dad. The dad has been around for tens of years involved in bikes in some way or the other and the son, while have some great designs and ideas, seemed to take everything for granted and walk around and do things when he wanted. The dad seemed like the bad guy as he always had to keep Paulie on track and on time.


The newer episodes may change your mind. Sr regularly mocks Jr in front of his former coworkers at OCC and tries to get them to do the same. Any time Jr makes a misstep Sr makes sure to tell everyone about it and insists Jr will fail. He wouldn't even let Rick go visit Jr's new shop, after first telling him that he could.


----------



## Hansky

IJustLikeTivo said:


> I think no one knows if he talks with his daughter. She clearly decided early on to avoid being on the show. You also don't see his mother anymore. I wonder if he's on the outs with her as well.


You also don't see them building motorcycles.


----------



## modnar

WhiskeyTango said:


> The newer episodes may change your mind. Sr regularly mocks Jr in front of his former coworkers at OCC and tries to get them to do the same. Any time Jr makes a misstep Sr makes sure to tell everyone about it and insists Jr will fail. He wouldn't even let Rick go visit Jr's new shop, after first telling him that he could.


Yep. Prior to the "Versus" series of episodes, I didn't have a certain like/dislike for either of the Pauls. Now, I'm definitely rooting for Paul Jr. while being appalled by Paul Sr.'s behavior.


----------



## Hansky

Rkkeller said:


> I don't know really. I haven't seen any of these recent shows but I always disliked the son and liked the dad. The dad has been around for tens of years involved in bikes in some way or the other and the son, while have some great designs and ideas, seemed to take everything for granted and walk around and do things when he wanted. The dad seemed like the bad guy as he always had to keep Paulie on track and on time.


Going only on what is shown on TV, there has never been the slightest doubt that Sr. is an emotionally destructive (and self-destructive) person. You are either on his side, or you are the enemy and to him that means actively trying to defeat the enemy. He is incapable of an emotional relationship, and I would include his wife.

This is not only evident in the bad times, it is evident in a good part of the good times as well. The good times consist mainly of his buddies (as he sees them) amusing him. When that stops, the good time stops. He has no idea whatsoever how to be a father -- except to a dog. We are making some huge assumptions about his many years of hard work, but even if true, it does not change the reality of who he is. His actions on the show are also not reflective of a person who really knows the value of working, saving and treating money with respect. Thay are more like a lottery winner or someone who comes into money by luck, and has people fawning over him.

I don't put much stock in the editing of what goes on between Sr. and Mikey, and the therapy nonsense as they edit it, but beyond that, the bottom line is that Mikey is the weak one. He is not going to be a threat or competition in Sr's mind.

There is not much comparison in the two, and I agree of the assessment of Jr. in the above post. As bad as Jr. is in many ways, there is not much to indicate he is in the same league as his dad as far as being destructive.

None of them would be in my circle of friends.


----------



## FiftyoneFifty

I did find it interesting that these two pics were posted on Mikey's Facebook page the week of Christmas. It had this caption:
"Let Christmas be good, and forget everything bad, at least for one day!!!
Merry Christmas Dad"
Who knows when these were taken, but it can't be that old with JR in a PJD shirt...


----------



## nataylor

They've shot promos for the show together since the "versus" thing happened. That's probably what those photos are from.


----------



## Rkkeller

I seem to be one of the only ones but I did watch a couple episodes finally and still side with Senior. I know he was busting chops and poking fun at things Junior messed up, like missing the one quad deadline, but didn't think it was mean spirited. Not much different from what he would have done if they were still working together face to face.

The things Junior messed up on seemed to me exactly like the things Senior used to ride him and get into fights over. Now with no Senior to yell at him about it he is still messing the same things up the same way.

I would gloat and rub it in a little too if I were Senior as now its showing why he rode him so much before and what would happen if he didn't.


----------



## jbernardis

Rkkeller said:


> ... but didn't think it was mean spirited. Not much different from what he would have done if they were still working together face to face.


Are you kidding? Saying something face to face and saying it behind his back are two totally different things. Face to face, Junior would at least be able to defend himself; saying it behind his back - to his peers no less - is cowardly. He's forgetting he's the father in this relationship - the adult thing to do would be to at least keep his mouth shut.

I think Senior is being extremely mean spirited and, as Mikey says, I think Senior wants to destroy his son - at least while they're competing. It's so mean spirited that I'd like to see Discover drop OCC from the program and focus on PJD, but I guess contracts prevent that from happening.


----------



## Malcontent

Rkkeller said:


> I seem to be one of the only ones but I did watch a couple episodes finally and still side with Senior. I know he was busting chops and poking fun at things Junior messed up, like missing the one quad deadline, but didn't think it was mean spirited.


I'm guessing you didn't see the episodes where Sr. tried to get suppliers (Venders) to not do business with Jr. To freezing him out and not be able to get the equipment he needed to start his shop. The episode where Sr. tried to hire a potential employee before Jr. could get him. It was that guy named Lee. Sr. heard Jr. was interested in hiring Lee to build a tank and Lee said that Sr. called a dozen times trying to hire him before Jr. could talk to him.

How about the episodes where Sr. was rewriting OCC history, saying Jr. didn't contribute anything to the success of the company?

Did you see the episode where Sr. gave Rick 'permission' to visit Jr.'s shop on camera but off camera told Rick the would be "arrested" if he did go to visit Jr.'s shop?


----------



## bareyb

Just caught the special episode "Sr. vs. Jr.: A Crew Divided" that shows the behind the scenes on the producers and the conflicts they go through to film this show now. Very interesting and full of new info. Well worth checking out I thought. For some reason my SP did not pick it up so if you also missed it the first time around, it will air again on the 6th.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

bareyb said:


> Just caught the special episode "Sr. vs. Jr.: A Crew Divided" that shows the behind the scenes on the producers and the conflicts they go through to film this show now. Very interesting and full of new info. Well worth checking out I thought. For some reason my SP did not pick it up so if you also missed it the first time around, it will air again on the 6th.


Just watched it. Interesting stuff. Answers the question of how they film it and get so much good stuff. Sr thinks he is doing things for the show but he clearly has no idea how he comes off. He looks petty and juvenile and Jr looks like the adult. Jr is a bit paranoid but given the stakes it is easy to see why.


----------



## bareyb

One thing I found interesting is that Senior originally said "no" to the Senior vs. Junior concept and THAT was why the show was cancelled. I guess Senior was calling their bluff and lost that one. I also found it telling that Senior was able to get the original producer fired and was able to all but hand pick his replacement. One that they could "control". That guy is still there, so it's no wonder Junior is a bit paranoid. I wonder how much money they get paid for doing the show? I wonder if it's that income that is keeping them both afloat? Neither seems to be hurting for money these days...


----------



## Rkkeller

I know I am in the minority but Senior just seems to be busting chops and having a good time and """IMO""" Paulie and Mikey are knowingly and on purpose trying to make him look bad by not going back at him when all the years in the past they would have.

If these same things happened on the normal AC a few years ago they ALL would be going back and forth with the pranks and digs.

Senior might be trying to block some of his supplies and customers but its business and Junior is now competition. Its not father and son family stuff alone if you ask me once your doing something to compete and take away business from the well established OCC.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

Rkkeller said:


> I know I am in the minority but Senior just seems to be busting chops and having a good time and """IMO""" Paulie and Mikey are knowingly and on purpose trying to make him look bad by not going back at him when all the years in the past they would have.
> 
> If these same things happened on the normal AC a few years ago they ALL would be going back and forth with the pranks and digs.
> 
> Senior might be trying to block some of his supplies and customers but its business and Junior is now competition. Its not father and son family stuff alone if you ask me once your doing something to compete and take away business from the well established OCC.


I think the problem is the perception of those 'digs and pranks'. Sr sees them they way you do but Jr and Mikey are beyond that and see it as spiteful given the other things that have taken place (the lawsuit, Jr and Mikey being let go from OCC, Sr not going to Jr's wedding, etc.). There are some serious underlying issues in that family going back to Sr's days of substance abuse and their childhood.


----------



## Malcontent

Rkkeller said:


> I know I am in the minority but Senior just seems to be busting chops and having a good time and """IMO""" Paulie and Mikey are knowingly and on purpose trying to make him look bad by not going back at him when all the years in the past they would have.


Sr. is making himself look bad all on his own. The problems this family is having go beyond simple pranks. I suggest you watch more then a *couple* of episodes. There are deep seeded problems that go back decades.


----------



## Eddief66

It's all fun 'n games till someone sues you.


----------



## bareyb

Eddief66 said:


> It's all fun 'n games till someone sues you.


Well to be more accurate, it's all fun and games when the cash is pouring in hand over fist... Not so fun when the Chopper craze ends at precisely the same time as the economy tanks... 

Not that they didn't fight before, but Senior really took a turn for the worse when it all went to hell. It's almost like his contract with the devil ran out. Only instead of dying in a small plane wreck like a rock star, he gets to live and watch everything he's worked for go down the drain. I hope it doesn't happen, but I know those lawyers can't be working for free... Personally I'm still hoping for a happy ending, but it's going to take a miracle or a tragedy at this point. I hope it's the former and not the latter...


----------



## Frylock

Did anyone else notice how much Sr. has AGED? In the clips from the first episode, he looks so much younger. I realize it's been 6 years and a lot has gone on, but that is a pretty dramatic change.


----------



## bareyb

Frylock said:


> Did anyone else notice how much Sr. has AGED? In the clips from the first episode, he looks so much younger. I realize it's been 6 years and a lot has gone on, but that is a pretty dramatic change.


Yeah. I've noticed. He's lost a significant amount of weight/muscle since those days. Has it really only been six years? Seems a lot longer... But whatever, I know what you mean. I think he was hitting the weights pretty hard back then too. All this stress can't be helping either. I know he has high blood pressure etc. so his doc probably told him to clean up his act and lose weight. Left him looking a lot smaller and older, but he's probably healthier for it.


----------



## vertigo235

He got rich


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

vertigo235 said:


> He got rich


Not really. They're destroying the value of the company with what's happening. If Sr is to be believed, the company has a valuation of $0. Add to that all the stuff they bought and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they actually have nothing left. I think that's one reason why he was so desperate to get another year out of the TV show. They all get paid for that show in addition to whatever the company was making which at this point appears to be nil. Sr has a huge staff, a huge building and isn't bringing in money to pay for it all.

Not sure what Jr situation is. The only thing I know for sure is that he has a big a$$ house just like dad and most likely a mortgage to go with it.


----------



## vertigo235

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Not really. They're destroying the value of the company with what's happening. If Sr is to be believed, the company has a valuation of $0. Add to that all the stuff they bought and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they actually have nothing left. I think that's one reason why he was so desperate to get another year out of the TV show. They all get paid for that show in addition to whatever the company was making which at this point appears to be nil. Sr has a huge staff, a huge building and isn't bringing in money to pay for it all.
> 
> Not sure what Jr situation is. The only thing I know for sure is that he has a big a$$ house just like dad and most likely a mortgage to go with it.


That's what is happening now.

before that...

He Got Rich, and that's why he stopped working out.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

vertigo235 said:


> That's what is happening now.
> 
> before that...
> 
> He Got Rich, and that's why he stopped working out.


Oh. Misunderstood your point. Not sure why he doesn't work out, they have a weight room at the plant they've shown it before.


----------



## Frylock

I wonder if his lack of working out so much is contributing to his stress. He's lost a release point for all that bottled up crazy he has. Before he could work it off in the weight room. If he can't do it there, then I guess it just overflows into the rest of his life... (Not that this is the only reason, but I wonder if this is part of it)


----------



## sansom

Malcontent said:


> If not unethical then truly unprofessional.


Paul Sr is the very definition of unethical. Just Google what he did with his previous buisiness Orange County Iron Works. Just after having Orange County Iron Works do all the iron work on the new OCC world headquarters, with debts mounting, they stripped all the assets and signed them over to family, then declared bankruptcy, and started a new Iron Works company with ALL of the equipment and assets and NO debt. (Yes, he was sued over that too, and settled for $500,000.)

Even the FBI build was unethical. Very non-arms length. They use the show to make it out like they are using their charity to save the build, but it was probably designed to happen that way from the begining. This way all the money that had been donated to the charity with tax benefits, get steered right back into his own pocket to pay for the build. Kind of like Al Gore buying 'carbon offsets' from a company that just happens to be owned by Al Gore.

Paul Teutul Sr is as slippery and unethical as they come. And if he thinks Paul Jr is nothing without OCC, then why does he go out of his way to bad talk him and even overtly sabotage him? Has having cameras around him this long numbed him to the fact that he is being filmed while he's making calls to suppliers and ex-employees and trying to 'pay them off' not to work with Jr?

Every show it seems like Sr say's Jr has never finished anything he's started. How many bikes does Jr need to finish in order to squash that? So far he's finished Anti-Venom, Geico, the Quad, Window World and Carolina Carports. Is the magic number 10? 50? 100?

Sr makes me laugh when he say's OCC has set the bar so high, and that NO ONE else could have built the Lawless electric drag bike. That only OCC has the tech and know how to pull off something this radical. Then watching the episode we see him order a STOCK drag frame, and then Lawless delivers a large but still STOCK electric motor (which lawless later tweeks and programs). Ummmmm, wow. Really? Where was the part that only OCC could do? Maybe he thinks he's the only one that owns a multi axis lathe. When they trimmed down the motors mounting plate on the lathe maybe that was what ONLY OCC could do. Or maybe it was the OCC logo on the bike, I guess only OCC could legally put that on a bike.

And why does everyone assume Sr started OCC alone? OCC was founded by both Sr and Jr in 1999. OCC's first bike was "True Blue". Did Jr work on "True Blue"? Yes. So this BS that Sr started the place, and would be where he is now without Jr is total nonsense. Both needed eachother to get Discovery's attention, and it is ONLY because of Discovery Networks giving them their show that OCC exploded and grew like it did.


----------



## bareyb

sansom said:


> Paul Sr is the very definition of unethical. Just Google what he did with his previous buisiness Orange County Iron Works. Just after having Orange County Iron Works do all the iron work on the new OCC world headquarters, with debts mounting, they stripped all the assets and signed them over to family, then declared bankruptcy, and started a new Iron Works company with ALL of the equipment and assets and NO debt. (Yes, he was sued over that too, and settled for $500,000.)
> 
> Even the FBI build was unethical. Very non-arms length. They use the show to make it out like they are using their charity to save the build, but it was probably designed to happen that way from the begining. This way all the money that had been donated to the charity with tax benefits, get steered right back into his own pocket to pay for the build. Kind of like Al Gore buying 'carbon offsets' from a company that just happens to be owned by Al Gore.
> 
> Paul Teutul Sr is as slippery and unethical as they come. And if he thinks Paul Jr is nothing without OCC, then why does he go out of his way to bad talk him and even overtly sabotage him? Has having cameras around him this long numbed him to the fact that he is being filmed while he's making calls to suppliers and ex-employees and trying to 'pay them off' not to work with Jr?
> 
> Every show it seems like Sr say's Jr has never finished anything he's started. How many bikes does Jr need to finish in order to squash that? So far he's finished Anti-Venom, Geico, the Quad, Window World and Carolina Carports. Is the magic number 10? 50? 100?
> 
> Sr makes me laugh when he say's OCC has set the bar so high, and that NO ONE else could have built the Lawless electric drag bike. That only OCC has the tech and know how to pull off something this radical. Then watching the episode we see him order a STOCK drag frame, and then Lawless delivers a large but still STOCK electric motor (which lawless later tweeks and programs). Ummmmm, wow. Really? Where was the part that only OCC could do? Maybe he thinks he's the only one that owns a multi axis lathe. When they trimmed down the motors mounting plate on the lathe maybe that was what ONLY OCC could do. Or maybe it was the OCC logo on the bike, I guess only OCC could legally put that on a bike.
> 
> And why does everyone assume Sr started OCC alone? OCC was founded by both Sr and Jr in 1999. OCC's first bike was "True Blue". Did Jr work on "True Blue"? Yes. So this BS that Sr started the place, and would be where he is now without Jr is total nonsense. Both needed eachother to get Discovery's attention, and it is ONLY because of Discovery Networks giving them their show that OCC exploded and grew like it did.


Great post! 

_Junior is that you? _


----------



## sansom

bareyb said:


> Great post!
> 
> _Junior is that you? _


lol... Thanks.

Nawh, I'm not Jr, just a somewhat fan of the show. Now that I've seen as much as I have I'm not sure whether I should still be a fan, or be disgusted. Until TLC put up the 'behind the scenes' episode, I was truely wondering whether this feud was just being faked to increase the drama.

Now I guess I believe that the split is real, but if it's real then I wonder how stupid Sr is?

He's rich enough to not have to care how lazy his son is. So WHY does he care? If he can grow OCC without Jr being there, then why not grow it with Jr barely being there and just milk him for his on camera persona and amazing designs? I mean, Mikey's offical title at OCC had been Chief Custodian. Did you see the new house Mikey bought? That's the best paying custodian gig I've ever heard of.


----------



## Eddief66

TLC's been having a countdown of episodes left. Now they're saying that there are only four episodes left. So I was wondering........Is it till the season or series finale? I've searched and couldn't find out anything.


----------



## Frylock

I don't think Discovery knows. Considering how volatile the family is, they will probably wait to see how things play out.


----------



## Rkkeller

sansom said:


> And why does everyone assume Sr started OCC alone? OCC was founded by both Sr and Jr in 1999. OCC's first bike was "True Blue". Did Jr work on "True Blue"? Yes. So this BS that Sr started the place, and would be where he is now without Jr is total nonsense. Both needed eachother to get Discovery's attention, and it is ONLY because of Discovery Networks giving them their show that OCC exploded and grew like it did.


Senior was building bikes in his basement probably since before Junior was even thought of or at least old enough to help. Do you think Junior just all of a sudden becomes a great designer, no it was after years and years of watching his father work on bikes.

Senior is and was the main link to everything and a semi icon while Junior was still in diapers and he was wiping his butt.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Rkkeller said:


> Senior was building bikes in his basement probably since before Junior was even thought of or at least old enough to help. Do you think Junior just all of a sudden becomes a great designer, no it was after years and years of watching his father work on bikes.
> 
> Senior is and was the main link to everything and a semi icon while Junior was still in diapers and he was wiping his butt.


Sr built bikes out of stock parts. Jr may have watched that but it's like saying if I change my oil, I could build a car. Sr and Jr started OCC, that's not contested. The division of labor was also clear, Sr ran the business while JR designed and built ( with assistance ) the new bikes. Until OCC, there was no real custom bike business. Regardless of where it started, it took off as OCC which was a combined effort.


----------



## Bob_Newhart

FiftyoneFifty said:


> I did find it interesting that these two pics were posted on Mikey's Facebook page the week of Christmas. It had this caption:
> "Let Christmas be good, and forget everything bad, at least for one day!!!
> Merry Christmas Dad"
> Who knows when these were taken, but it can't be that old with JR in a PJD shirt...


They all look so jolly.


----------



## sansom

Rkkeller said:


> Senior was building bikes in his basement probably since before Junior was even thought of or at least old enough to help. Do you think Junior just all of a sudden becomes a great designer, no it was after years and years of watching his father work on bikes.
> 
> Senior is and was the main link to everything and a semi icon while Junior was still in diapers and he was wiping his butt.


No one said he didn't build any bikes before Jr came along, but building an occaisional bike in your basement as a hobby and actually begining a full time business building them are WORLDS apart. And the world of building them as a full time business began WITH Jr, not in spite of him. And it was the designs of Jr that caught Discovery Networks attention. Without Discovery Networks OCC would still be a little known backwater builder.

Now WHY did it take Jr to get Discovery Networks attention? Have you seen any of the bikes built and designed by Sr? First off you can only say that they were BUILT by Sr (assembled from stock ordered parts). The few time's he's tried to design anything it's just bad. They're HORRIBLE. The Santa Claus Bike? They are as STOCK as STOCK can get. Bleech!

Practically every OCC bike that has ever gotten any design attention is JR.

I guess I don't expect you to see that fact considering you earlier expressed the feeling that Sr is just 'busting chops' with Junior. When pressed on this you simply conceeded that why shouldn't he sabotage Jr, because Jr is competition.

Apparently you have NO IDEA what business ethics and professional behavior is.


----------



## bareyb

Bob_Newhart said:


> They all look so jolly.


Yeah. Merry F'n Christmas. Who said money can't buy happiness?


----------



## Frylock

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Sr built bikes out of stock parts. Jr may have watched that but it's like saying if I change my oil, I could build a car. Sr and Jr started OCC, that's not contested. The division of labor was also clear, Sr ran the business while JR designed and built ( with assistance ) the new bikes. Until OCC, there was no real custom bike business. Regardless of where it started, it took off as OCC which was a combined effort.


Sorry, but Sr knows HOW to build a bike. He sure does suck as design though. Jr knows how to design, but he can't build a bike. Vinnie was the fabricator and assembly back in the day. Jr was the one who did the designs that caught the eye of Discovery, definitely. But he doesn't have the mechanical skills Sr. or Vinnie have.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Frylock said:


> Sorry, but Sr knows HOW to build a bike. He sure does suck as design though. Jr knows how to design, but he can't build a bike. Vinnie was the fabricator and assembly back in the day. Jr was the one who did the designs that caught the eye of Discovery, definitely. But he doesn't have the mechanical skills Sr. or Vinnie have.


That's just crap. Every time Sr tries to build a bike he messes it up. Last time he had trouble figuring out how to install the front end into the triple trees. He might have known some stuff but he long since forgot that stuff.

Jr has help but trust me, he has to know how the parts work to do what he does. He has also spend a lot of time building bikes as well as designing them. There is a reason why Sr brought him on board and acting as a management trainee wasn't it.


----------



## Gerryex

IJustLikeTivo said:


> That's just crap. Every time Sr tries to build a bike he messes it up. Last time he had trouble figuring out how to install the front end into the triple trees. He might have known some stuff but he long since forgot that stuff.
> 
> Jr has help but trust me, he has to know how the parts work to do what he does. He has also spend a lot of time building bikes as well as designing them. There is a reason why Sr brought him on board and acting as a management trainee wasn't it.


Absolutely correct! I've been watching this show for many years and Jr WAS the main designer of ALL of the bikes shown on TV. Did Jr get help from Jason? Yes, but Jr had the final word on the design. Did Sr make some suggestions? Sure, but unless Sr totally vetoed something, Jr made all the decisions on the design.

Now, did Jr build the entire bike? Of course not! But did he build parts of them? Certainly! I've seen him build gas tanks, oil tanks, battery boxes, handle bars, etc. In fact I think I've seen him build almost all of the components of a bike. Did he do that all the time? No. Did the other fabricators, like Vinnie and Rick, do more of the work? Yes. But they did so at the direction of Jr.

Lastly, was Jr's work ethic the same as Sr's? A very BIG NO!!! Jr did come in late too often. Jr spoke on his cell phone too often. Jr wasn't as organized as he should be. (In my opinion Sr was even LESS organized as Jr but was successful because he had a good office staff.) So, Sr did have some ligitimate beefs with Jr but I always thought Sr made WAY too much of a stink about them and all of those arguments were WAY over the top! Certainly Jr did not deserve to be fired.

So, frankly I am very glad Jr is out on his own and hopefully will be VERY successful in his new business. And if OCC is no longer as successful as they once were, that would be OK with me!!!

Gerry


----------



## ursine1

I find myself fast-forwarding thru any scene where Sr is on camera.

Really glad Vinnie's back though!


----------



## jbernardis

I'm glad Vinnie's back too, but I'd really like to see Rick at PJD.


----------



## vertigo235

jbernardis said:


> I'm glad Vinnie's back too, but I'd really like to see Rick at PJD.


Look for this to happen only after OCC declares bankruptsy and closes it's doors. I have a feeling Rickster is under contract with Sr.

And unlike Jr. Rick can't afford to not work and wait out his contract.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

vertigo235 said:


> Look for this to happen only after OCC declares bankruptsy and closes it's doors. I have a feeling Rickster is under contract with Sr.
> 
> And unlike Jr. Rick can't afford to not work and wait out his contract.


I'm guessing that Rick also has a "no compete" clause in his contract as well. I'll be surprised if he goes to work for PJD.


----------



## jbernardis

Yeah - I didn't think it was a real possibility - just wishful thinking.


----------



## windracer

bareyb said:


> Just caught the special episode "Sr. vs. Jr.: A Crew Divided" that shows the behind the scenes on the producers and the conflicts they go through to film this show now. Very interesting and full of new info.


Just got around to watching this ... a pretty interesting behind-the-scenes look. Those producers definitely have their work cut out for them.

I guess that Christmas card/postcard thing at the end never made it into one of the aired episodes? I didn't remember seeing that before ...


----------



## vertigo235

The Hairclub for Men OCC bike is probably the first post Jr. bike they have made that I actually liked. It really did look like a custom bike.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

vertigo235 said:


> The Hairclub for Men OCC bike is probably the first post Jr. bike they have made that I actually liked. It really did look like a custom bike.


Haven't watched yet. But I'm wondering how Sr will manage to get free hair plugs out of the deal. As vain as he is, it's gonna happen.


----------



## nataylor

Mikey nailed it last night when he said Senior was doing stuff just to say "Hey, look at me... I'm an *******."

He goes to Jason Poole's wedding but not his own sons' (plural there, since we learn Mikey was planning on getting married and Senior RSVP'd with a no).

It was nice to see that look of shock on Senior's face when Quinn told him Faro was going with Junior. Interesting that they mentioned Joe's non-compete. Are they suing him, too?


----------



## tripmac

I caught that about Joe's non-compete. I wonder how long it was and the timeframe. Did Joe get fired or laid off? Lot of questions there.

That was about the only thing OCC I caught. I have now gotten to where when the OCC segments come up I begin my 30 sec skip and listen for a second and skip again.


----------



## gastrof

I think it was Steve (and where's he been?) who said a while back that they'd fired Joe.

I suppose a contract could still require non-competition even if a person gets fired...


----------



## ahartman

vertigo235 said:


> The Hairclub for Men OCC bike is probably the first post Jr. bike they have made that I actually liked. It really did look like a custom bike.


I felt the opposite - I didn't get the skull theme - yeah, one skull was bald, the other had hair, but for a shop that builds theme bikes, I didn't get the theme at all.

I just can't wrap my head around everything Sr. is doing - whether it's intentional or not - that hurts his kids. Lawsuits are business I suppose, but hurtful actions just go beyond everything else.



Spoiler



Paul Jr. was reading yet another lawsuit in the coming scenes, so I assume that's the lawsuit around Joe's non-compete.



At this point, I'd rather the show just be about Jr. and his shop - OCC really doesn't add anything to the mix other than the ongoing battle with PJD.


----------



## vertigo235

ahartman said:


> I felt the opposite - I didn't get the skull theme - yeah, one skull was bald, the other had hair, but for a shop that builds theme bikes, I didn't get the theme at all.
> 
> I just can't wrap my head around everything Sr. is doing - whether it's intentional or not - that hurts his kids. Lawsuits are business I suppose, but hurtful actions just go beyond everything else.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Paul Jr. was reading yet another lawsuit in the coming scenes, so I assume that's the lawsuit around Joe's non-compete.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, I'd rather the show just be about Jr. and his shop - OCC really doesn't add anything to the mix other than the ongoing battle with PJD.


I agree that the skulls didn't make much sense, but then again I was only talkign about the bike itself, not how well it fit the HCFM theme.


----------



## vertigo235

gastrof said:


> I think it was Steve (and where's he been?) who said a while back that they'd fired Joe.
> 
> I suppose a contract could still require non-competition even if a person gets fired...


They usually do, which is why they are compelte BS. Non-Competition contracts are almost always completely unilateral and there is absolutly no advantage to the employee signing one.

I once was thinking about taking a job with a company and they said I would have to sign a non-compete. I refuse to sign one of those things. I just don't see how anything good can come from it to the employee.

In many cases they are completely unenforceable too. It's just scare tactics, which is yet another reason I wouldn't want to work for a company that wants you to sign one for that reason.

I can understand why high level execs and or someone with valuable knowledge to the company would need to sign one, however I woudl also expect that they are appropriately compensated for their importance, which is a two way agreement.


----------



## bareyb

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Haven't watched yet. But I'm wondering how Sr will manage to get free hair plugs out of the deal. As vain as he is, it's gonna happen.


Yep. He has already agreed to let them have at it. He said "go for it" in the last episode. I'm also pretty sure most of the bikes we see being built on OCC's side of things are getting their bikes built at least in part for trade. 

I can't wait to watch senior go through the whole process... Apparently it's very painful and your scalp itches constantly while the new hair grows in. 

On another note, I think Mikey was over-reacting or perhaps just looking for something to complain about on TV. Senior had every right to attend Jason's wedding and in fact, with half the company there it was almost required. That's not to say he shouldn't have also attended Junior's wedding but I don't see him going to Jason's wedding just to spite Paulie. That's reaching.

One thing I was encouraged about. Apparently Senior has been watching the show and is realizing the practical jokes need to stop until the lawsuit is over. I honestly think things might be ever so slightly turning around. I'd love to see Senior offer Junior something reasonable for his share of the company and drop the lawsuit. Of course, finding a number they both agree on isn't going to be easy.


----------



## nataylor

Interesting that on the OCC web site there was a charity event listed on December 13th that involved a lot of the shop, including Senior, shaving their heads and facial hair.


----------



## bareyb

nataylor said:


> Interesting that on the OCC web site there was a charity event listed on December 13th that involved a lot of the shop, including Senior, shaving their heads and facial hair.


I wonder if Sr. set that up to hide his Hair Club treatments? As I understand it, all your new hairs fall out before they grow in permanently with the transplants.


----------



## DanB

well, Jason is the son Sr wishes he had 

I did think it was overreaching a bit for Mikey to come up with those conclusions, but many times logic doesnt play a part in feelings.

As for non-competes, I usually sign them since in most states they are unenforceable at best. When in doubt, make the other party pay you for the time you wont be competing -- they'll drop the clause. The interesting thing is that it appears that Jr honored the non-compete he had.


----------



## vertigo235

DanB said:


> As for non-competes, I usually sign them since in most states they are unenforceable at best. When in doubt, make the other party pay you for the time you wont be competing -- they'll drop the clause. The interesting thing is that it appears that Jr honored the non-compete he had.


This is mostly true, but personally I would prefer to avoid employers who use this tactic to begin with.

Then again, if I need a Job, I probably wouldn't have much of a choice.


----------



## gastrof

You know, this is no real slam against Jason, cuz I sort of like the guy, but all things considered, WHO IN THE WORLD did he find who'd marry him?

I just can't see him as a young woman's husband. The guy comes across as such a kid and a goof.

Maybe it's just an act for the cameras? I don't think so. Not entirely, anyway.


----------



## Eddief66

gastrof said:


> You know, this is no real slam against Jason, cuz I sort of like the guy, but all things considered, WHO IN THE WORLD did he find who'd marry him?
> 
> I just can't see him as a young woman's husband. The guy comes across as such a kid and a goof.
> 
> Maybe it's just an act for the cameras? I don't think so. Not entirely, anyway.


Even more unbelievable is that someone would agree to marry Mikey, even though they didn't go though with it.


----------



## Hansky

DanB said:


> As for non-competes, I usually sign them since in most states they are unenforceable at best. .


People think that for some reason, though it is not true at all.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

gastrof said:


> I think it was Steve (and where's he been?) who said a while back that they'd fired Joe.
> 
> I suppose a contract could still require non-competition even if a person gets fired...


Usually a non compete is void when you fire someone.


----------



## Hansky

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Usually a non compete is void when you fire someone.


Also, not true at all.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Hansky said:


> Also, not true at all.


Ok, in my experience. A non compete means you can't quit\ at will and then compete. In MOST cases, the employer makes this a condition of employment. If they fire you for reasons not due to cause, they lose the power to enforce that clause. As usual, you are being pedantic with no reason. Color me stunned.


----------



## Hansky

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Ok, in my experience. A non compete means you can't quit\ at will and then compete. In MOST cases, the employer makes this a condition of employment. If they fire you for reasons not due to cause, they lose the power to enforce that clause. As usual, you are being pedantic with no reason. Color me stunned.


You are completely wrong in both posts. The contract might provide that the non-compete is not effective if the employee is fired (or for any number of reasons the parties agree to), but there is certainly no general legal theory that it is voided or ineffective if the employee is fired. Non-competes are generally valis in every state, with very few states imposing significant restrictions.

If you don't like being called on your ignorance, it is your problem.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Hansky said:


> You are completely wrong in both posts. The contract might provide that the non-compete is not effective if the employee is fired (or for any number of reasons the parties agree to), but there is certainly no general legal theory that it is voided or ineffective if the employee is fired. Non-competes are generally valis in every state, with very few states imposing significant restrictions.
> 
> If you don't like being called on your ignorance, it is your problem.


You are wrong again but forceful in your argument. There is no consideration if the person is fired without cause. Hence no contract but I guess that doesn't matter in Hansky land. I assume gravity also is null and void in that area so fly away.

Back on the list.


----------



## Hansky

IJustLikeTivo said:


> You are wrong again but forceful in your argument. There is no consideration if the person is fired without cause.


Consideration is required for the initial validity of the contract. It is then, for the most part, a non-issue. You don't really know much about contracts do you? I do. A lot.



> Hence no contract but I guess that doesn't matter in Hansky land. I assume gravity also is null and void in that area so fly away.
> 
> Back on the list.


You can stick your tongue out, flap your arms, roll on the ground and scream like a baby, or do whatever else people at your level do, and it won't change the outcome.


----------



## MikeMar

gastrof said:


> I think it was Steve (and where's he been?) who said a while back that they'd fired Joe.
> 
> I suppose a contract could still require non-competition even if a person gets fired...


I didn't get fired, but got laid off. At the time of my employment ending, I had a 1 year non-compete start then (freaking BS but I signed it when I started)

it says in there that if I get fired, laid off, or leave on my own. All the same.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

vertigo235 said:


> The Hairclub for Men OCC bike is probably the first post Jr. bike they have made that I actually liked. It really did look like a custom bike.


I said pretty much the same thing. I think that bike was the best looking bike that I've seen OCC make since the split. The tank was really cool and the forks were unique. But I was hoping that the problems they were having with the front end would cause them to miss their deadline. 



bareyb said:


> One thing I was encouraged about. Apparently Senior has been watching the show and is realizing the practical jokes need to stop until the lawsuit is over.


DING! DING! DING! DING! I noticed the same thing. There was NO bashing of Junior at all. In fact he was somewhat cordial about the whole thing with the Fairo deal. He even admitted at one point that he could "quit being an ass" or acting like one. Something like that but actually admitting to being an ass. I really think Sr has started watching the TV show again.


----------



## DanB

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> fact he was somewhat cordial about the whole thing with the Fairo deal.


Well, his "cordialness" may be in question if


Spoiler



the lawsuit that was served in the previews is about Faro


----------



## Numb And Number2

IJustLikeTivo said:


> If they fire you for reasons not due to cause, they lose the power to enforce that clause.


Whence derives this power you speak of?


----------



## MikeMar

Numb And Number2 said:


> Whence derives this power you speak of?


yeah, like I said above. Mine specifically said that if they fire me (DUE TO CAUSE), lay me off (for whatever reason) or I leave on my own. It's 1 year from my last day.

Now in my case, it's probably something they wouldn't waste their time on and probably wouldn't be really effective.

But in the case in the show, it's a very clear cut competitor and Sr. seems to be sue happy.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

MikeMar said:


> yeah, like I said above. Mine specifically said that if they fire me (DUE TO CAUSE), lay me off (for whatever reason) or I leave on my own. It's 1 year from my last day.
> 
> Now in my case, it's probably something they wouldn't waste their time on and probably wouldn't be really effective.
> 
> But in the case in the show, it's a very clear cut competitor and Sr. seems to be sue happy.


Maybe it's just me but I've never signed a non-compete that gave them the right to stop me from working in the same industry if I were laid off. Aside from which most non-compete clauses aren't enforceable these days. To get one enforced you generally have to show that consideration was made to you that compensates you for that restriction. Giving you a job in an at will state doesn't normally fall into that category. Now, if they paid you a bonus or stock options in return for that restriction you might have a case. I spent lots of years in the software business in vertical markets where my knowledge would have been valuable to a competitor but I had no such restriction unless I CHOSE to quit and even then my lawyer said it wasn't enforceable. Maybe the wording was odd, I don't know.

I do know that in that job and my next, when someone was laid off, they always went to a competitor and we all had non-compete clauses in our employment contracts.


----------



## MikeMar

For me, it probably wouldn't be enforceable and not worth their time, especially since I'm just a lonely peon anyways. 

I'm in an at will state, and I didn't have to sign the thing (I just wouldn't get the job!, simple enough)

The job that I did, I could have EASILY left and taken some clients with me, which is different than a lot of other jobs where it's a lot harder to.


----------



## windracer

So Senior cut the sleeves of his tux for his own wedding? Classy. 

Gotta admit he did dress up nice, though.


----------



## Hansky

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Aside from which most non-compete clauses aren't enforceable these days.


Say it three times, still not true. They are enforceable in every state (with a handful of states having significant restrictions).



> To get one enforced you generally have to show that consideration was made to you that compensates you for that restriction. Giving you a job in an at will state doesn't normally fall into that category. Now, if they paid you a bonus or stock options in return for that restriction you might have a case.


Clueless. Nothing wrong with that, you just seem to have a desire to keep making things up as you go along. Consideration for a restrictive covenant is, in most cases, simply a job and a paycheck for a day beyond the date it is signed, or even a dollar that is never even paid. That's it. There is no "compensation" for the covenant.


----------



## MikeMar

There are some non-competes that are:
-Only if you leave on your own
-For a certain period of time regardless of how you leave
-For a certain period of time that they PAY you for
-Other types I'm sure

Some or more enforceable than other, depending on the wording/industry/company


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

MikeMar said:


> There are some non-competes that are:
> -Only if you leave on your own
> -For a certain period of time regardless of how you leave
> -For a certain period of time that they PAY you for
> -Other types I'm sure
> 
> Some or more enforceable than other, depending on the wording/industry/company


And more importantly where the business is. California makes a non compete pretty much impossible. And others limit to equity owners if a business ( e.g. Jr). But there is plenty of ways around them for both parties.


----------



## vertigo235

Hansky said:


> Say it three times, still not true. They are enforceable in every state (with a handful of states having significant restrictions).
> 
> Clueless. Nothing wrong with that, you just seem to have a desire to keep making things up as you go along. Consideration for a restrictive covenant is, in most cases, simply a job and a paycheck for a day beyond the date it is signed, or even a dollar that is never even paid. That's it. There is no "compensation" for the covenant.


I think what he's trying to say is that while it is legally enforceable, it's not very practical or easy to enforce them.

I still hold strong though that if an employer wants me to sign a non-compete without proper consideration, and simply as a scare tactic etc. Then that's probably an employer that I don't want to work for to begin with.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

vertigo235 said:


> *I think what he's trying to say* is that while it is legally enforceable, it's not very practical or easy to enforce them.
> 
> I still hold strong though that if an employer wants me to sign a non-compete without proper consideration, and simply as a scare tactic etc. Then that's probably an employer that I don't want to work for to begin with.


Yep, plus I'm trying not to say something else.


----------



## DevdogAZ

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Maybe it's just me but I've never signed a non-compete that gave them the right to stop me from working in the same industry if I were laid off. Aside from which most non-compete clauses aren't enforceable these days. To get one enforced you generally have to show that consideration was made to you that compensates you for that restriction. Giving you a job in an at will state doesn't normally fall into that category. Now, if they paid you a bonus or stock options in return for that restriction you might have a case. I spent lots of years in the software business in vertical markets where my knowledge would have been valuable to a competitor but I had no such restriction unless I CHOSE to quit and even then my lawyer said it wasn't enforceable. Maybe the wording was odd, I don't know.


Most non-competes do not restrict the clause based on the details of the termination. Usually, they're valid no matter why the employee left. Courts will generally want to see that the clause is limited in scope and duration so as not to prevent the departing employee from making a living, but the reasonableness of that scope and duration is different in every case, depending on the industry, products, competitors, etc.

In addition, some states and/or associations have enacted laws that severely restrict non-compete clauses in certain industries. For example, in the legal industry, the state bar associations have said that non-competes for lawyers are not permitted.


IJustLikeTivo said:


> I do know that in that job and my next, when someone was laid off, they always went to a competitor and we all had non-compete clauses in our employment contracts.


Whether your employer(s) chose to enforce the clause is a completely different story. Enforcing a non-compete clause is very expensive and time-consuming and is generally only worth it if the departing employee is doing significant damage to the former employer. If a software engineer leaves one place and goes across the street and starts working for the competition, it's unlikely that the former employer will care unless the departing employee also takes with him confidential information and the competitor uses that to get a leg up.


----------



## ahartman

Really guys? Seems to have gone a long way off topic to the show...

I respectfully request that the legal pissing match be taken elsewhere.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

ahartman said:


> Really guys? Seems to have gone a long way off topic to the show...
> 
> I respectfully request that the legal pissing match be taken elsewhere.


Respect won't work here. Especially with the number of posts you have... ;-)

Point taken.


----------



## Hansky

vertigo235 said:


> I think what he's trying to say is that while it is legally enforceable, it's not very practical or easy to enforce them.


What he was doing was speaking in absolutes and authoritatively, and trying to appear he knew what he was talking about. In reality, the opposite was true. When called, a little hissy fit followed to attempt to overshadow his failures. As I said, that is what people at his level, and many primary school classes, do. Now, he backs up further with what he "meant to say." Basically, a joke.



> I still hold strong though that if an employer wants me to sign a non-compete without proper consideration, and simply as a scare tactic etc. Then that's probably an employer that I don't want to work for to begin with.


Maybe. However, "consideration" is not the same as "compensation." People often think it is a scare tactic that right up until the time they get served with a lawsuit. Perhaps they listened to "experts" on internet message boards. In some entire industries, in some locations, a person either signs or they find a new industry.



IJustLikeTivo said:


> And more importantly where the business is. California makes a non compete pretty much impossible. And others limit to equity owners if a business ( e.g. Jr). But there is plenty of ways around them for both parties.


I'd love for you to take the floor and tell us all about those ways of getting around them. You've done so well with your absolute statements up to this point.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Hansky said:


> I'd love for you to take the floor and tell us all about those ways of getting around them. You've done so well with your absolute statements up to this point.


I'd take to the floor only for the purpose of making you look silly but you do that for me.

If you doubt what I say, give me objective evidence of your perspective. And, it is just that, perspective since you've presented nothing more objective than I have. I gave you my PERSONAL experiences with CNC, you gave me opinion. Nothing different.


----------



## jradosh

ahartman said:


> Really guys? Seems to have gone a long way off topic to the show...
> 
> I respectfully request that the legal pissing match be taken elsewhere.


:up: +1 :up:


----------



## Mike Lang

Cool it guys...


----------



## marksman

Here is my take on OCC versus PJD.

OCC at this point and time assembles parts to make motorcycles. PJD actually designs and builds custom bikes.

I know the people that work with Paulie have to get frustrated with him building things in his head, but ultimately it is a more creative process and result. I am not surprised at all Faro chose him over OCC. OCC just essentially mixes and matches parts and sticks them together.

People can talk about Paulie not assembling/building bikes, but nobody at OCC has a tiny fraction of the conceptual design ability that Junior has...

The Hair Club bike was both frightening and interesting at the same time. Why anyone who had the Hair Club for men would want a bike covered in Skulls is beyond me.


----------



## modnar

marksman said:


> People can talk about Paulie not assembling/building bikes, but nobody at OCC has a tiny fraction of the conceptual design ability that Junior has...


Yes. What Paul Sr. doesn't seem to even have the ability to understand is that *it doesn't matter* if Paulie does > 50% of the physical labor on the bikes or not. In fact, it's a waste of Paulie's value as a designer to have him turning screws when there are others without his creative talent there to do the fabrication.


----------



## nataylor

modnar said:


> Yes. What Paul Sr. doesn't seem to even have the ability to understand is that *it doesn't matter* if Paulie does > 50% of the physical labor on the bikes or not. In fact, it's a waste of Paulie's value as a designer to have him turning screws when there are others without his creative talent there to do the fabrication.


Bingo. Senior doesn't get the difference between design and assembly.


----------



## Frylock

OCC really should focus on building stock bikes. They have enough experience and parts that building stock bikes that look good would make a lot more sense than trying to do custom work. Let Paul Jr take on the custom side of things and let Sr do the production work. Then the two of them could be in different markets, and perhaps come together as a family.


----------



## jbernardis

Frylock said:


> OCC really should focus on building stock bikes. They have enough experience and parts that building stock bikes that look good would make a lot more sense than trying to do custom work. Let Paul Jr take on the custom side of things and let Sr do the production work. Then the two of them could be in different markets, and perhaps come together as a family.


I always thought this was the way they should be doing things when they were both still at OCC. Junior is subordinate to Senior, but in charge of custom builds. Senior runs the overall business.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

jbernardis said:


> I always thought this was the way they should be doing things when they were both still at OCC. Junior is subordinate to Senior, but in charge of custom builds. Senior runs the overall business.


The problem is that the stock bike business is primed by the custom business. Once they decided to do that they have to keep priming the pump to generate interest. The money is in the mass market not customs. By trashing the custom business senior has doomed the mass market side as well.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

I do actually like the HC bike that Sr's shop did. First one since Jr left that is really custom. I can't imagine that it rides well though, that front end must weight ton.

Doh, I take it back, just got to the end. HFC, Sr is suing them AGAIN? What a moron.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

I can't watch the Sr parts anymore. He just completely disgusts me.

OTOH, I think he might have a case on the suit against joe. I guess it depends on NY law. But seriously, another freaking law suit.

BTW, looking at the crap in Sr's garage tells me where the money went. BTW, OCC is facing foreclosure on the building. They stopped paying their mortgage to force a refinance. It cost 12 million but is now only worth 7 million. And, the county owns the building in lieu of tax payments. Sr is good at never owning debt.


----------



## vertigo235

Burn In Hell OCC!


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

I have to agree that Sr. may have a strong case with Joe. I guess it all depends on how long it was between him getting fired and hired. So, did Sr send Joe and PJD a cease & desist letter or a full on law suit?

I also find it interesting that the OCC building is going into foreclosure. http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101118/BIZ/11180319


----------



## Malcontent

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> I also find it interesting that the OCC building is going into foreclosure. http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101118/BIZ/11180319


In the story, it sounds like OCC is trying to force it's lenders to renegotiate.


> The Choppers stopped making mortgage payments in order to put pressure on the lender to modify the terms of the loans, according to Choppers' lawyer Richard Mahon. Mahon said that when the headquarters was built in 2007, it was valued at about $12 million. Because of the economic downturn, the building is now worth between $7 million and $8 million, he estimated.


OCC seems to be confident that the headquarters won't be foreclosed. Since it's reported to worth about half it's original value and it's designed for a specialized function. The lenders would have a hard time getting their money out of the property if they foreclosed.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Malcontent said:


> In the story, it sounds like OCC is trying to force it's lenders to renegotiate.
> 
> OCC seems to be confident that the headquarters won't be foreclosed. Since it's reported to worth about half it's original value and it's designed for a specialized function. The lenders would have a hard time getting their money out of the property if they foreclosed.


To me, it's just another symptom of Sr's delusion that the rules don't apply to him. Can you imagine the fuss he'd make if Junior was in foreclosure?

He needs to man up and pay the bills like the rest of us. He's not some poor schmo who's gonna lose his house cause he's upside down. He's a stupid business man who borrowed more money than he should to build a building he didn't need. I laughed my ass of when he criticized Jr for the space he rented ( a Steel frame building, one of the cheapest ways to build) while he pays mortgage on the Taj Mahal of bike shops.

Sr is really good at figuring out how to blame others for his misfortune without understanding his role in getting there.

I knew when I first saw the new shop that they had overbuilt. Most of that space isn't usable and while they hoped for fan visits to justify the retail space, it isn't realistic to expect people to drive 1.5 hours north of NYC to see it. Now he expects them to want to come there and eat at a New Restaurant in what is effectively an industrial park next to Stewart International Airport. He is a rebel without a clue.


----------



## windracer

I was hoping the guys at PJD would find out Lee was back over at OCC.

The Faro bike was really nice, but of course it was Nub's paint job that really sealed the deal. I hope he charges Jr. well for his work!

And what exactly was so special about the Headrush bike that would make Sr. say PJD couldn't pull it off? Rick's custom tank is about the only thing I figure they can't do over there unless they bring in their sheet metal guy.

Looks like next week we get to see how Sr. handles the foreclosure ...


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

windracer said:


> I was hoping the guys at PJD would find out Lee was back over at OCC.
> 
> The Faro bike was really nice, but of course it was Nub's paint job that really sealed the deal. I hope he charges Jr. well for his work!
> 
> And what exactly was so special about the Headrush bike that would make Sr. say PJD couldn't pull it off? Rick's custom tank is about the only thing I figure they can't do over there unless they bring in their sheet metal guy.
> 
> Looks like next week we get to see how Sr. handles the foreclosure ...


OCC doesn't do custom bikes anymore, they add a fancy tank to a stock bike and then let the machine shop add some useless crap. Seriously, those strakes on the gas tank are lethal and stupidly unsafe.

As for the foreclosure, that was caused by Jr leaving which caused Sr to forget to pay. Certainly not Sr's fault.


----------



## DanB

Well, Lee Stamper -- what else needs to be said? He impresses me as the type to sit up all night thinking about how cool it is that his company's initials are LSD.

Not sure how taking one of OCC's tool vendors and turning them into a PJD bike customer will be ultimately considered as competition or trade secrets, but I dont live in New York. No idea about the guy's non-compete.

I liked it how when Sr had his lawyers in the office, Sr. was saying "So what do we do?" and the lawyers say we have already filed a lawsuit -- like Sr. had not already decided on the course before the meeting, or is just along for the ride.

As Sr said -- he's "up for competition as long as it's fair." OMG, really?! He must be watching a different show.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Does anyone think Sr has any idea how badly he's coming off this year? It certainly seems like he is completely in the victim mindset from what he says. Additionally, the awful things he says about both of his kids and their business efforts boggle my mind. At some level, he must know that he's being a d-Bag.


----------



## windracer

DanB said:


> Not sure how taking one of OCC's tool vendors and turning them into a PJD bike customer will be ultimately considered as competition or trade secrets, but I dont live in New York. No idea about the guy's non-compete.


Plus, the way they edited it made it look like FARO came to PJD, not the other way around.

I wonder what an OCC FARO bike would have looked like?


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

Was it just me or do I remember years ago that Paul Jr & Sr said that they don't do certain themes on their bikes? Things like skulls and demons and such? Something about it being against their convictions or morals or something? OCC's last 2 bike prominently featured skulls and skeletons.

I'm getting really tired of Sr telling us how there is no way that PJD could build a bike like this (flavor of the day) bike. Am I the only one that would find it amusing if PJD would actually duplicate one of OCCs bikes? Just as an FU to Paul Sr.?


----------



## Test

windracer said:


> Plus, the way they edited it made it look like FARO came to PJD, not the other way around.
> 
> I wonder what an OCC FARO bike would have looked like?


It would be great to see them each get the same customer for the same type of bike (not knowing this of course) and see what comes out of each shop.


----------



## nataylor

The carbon-fiber paint job was exactly the kind of labor-intensive attention to detail that OCC doesn't do any more. Unless you call hosing down a piece in the Flojet labor intensive, I guess.


----------



## bareyb

Just saw it. REALLY like the new FARO bike they built. Nubby is the king. I too, hope he's getting paid a lot of money for all the time he puts in. Probably isn't, but I hope he is. I'm guessing Junior probably gives him about 2 or 3 grand tops. That was the going rate back in the day when prices were way up. It may be less now... Considering how much value the paint adds to the bike, I think it should be more. 

As for Sr's lawsuit? He's just blowing more smoke. He might get a cease and desist but it's too late to do anything about the Faro bike. The horse has already left the barn on that one. Faro made their choice and from what I saw on the show, it looks like they may have been a little peeved at Senior for not lending them a couple of bikes for a trade-show they were doing. He told them to pound salt and "buy a bike if they want one". 

What the heck is Senior thinking? He's obviously surrounded himself with "yes men" who are all profiting from the split. Lee is just an idiot. I never thought he was very skilled, only fast. He was on "Southern Choppers" and he was the same type of guy on that show too. FAST welder, but no eye for design.


----------



## Gerryex

Hi ALL,

What bothers me about Lee is that from what we viewers had seen on the episodes he was in while working at PJD is that everything was very amicable between Jr and Lee. Then Lee started to work on his part of the bike and then before you know it he's gone! Lee talking to Sr seemed to say that Lee's work environment at PJD was very bad and he just had to leave. Unless there was a whole lot more happening off camera, that is just a load of BS! So I'm at a loss as to why Lee is so negative about Jr, unless its true what someone (Vinnie, I think) said that Sr paid Lee $1,000 a day to NOT work at PJD!!

Gerry


----------



## Malcontent

bareyb said:


> Lee is just an idiot. I never thought he was very skilled, only fast. He was on "Southern Choppers" too and he was the same type of guy on that show too. FAST welder, but no eye for design.


Lee was the guy who ate a banana skin because the guys at the Southern Chopper shop convinced him that it was edible. Lee ran to the bathroom and puked it up. Not the brightest bulb.


----------



## windracer

Gerryex said:


> Unless there was a whole lot more happening off camera, that is just a load of BS!


When Vinnie and Mikey were talking about the incident, Vinnie said something about Lee posting on Facebook that he and Jr had a fight off-camera (although Vinnie said that was BS too).


----------



## Malcontent

windracer said:


> When Vinnie and Mikey were talking about the incident, Vinnie said something about Lee posting on Facebook that he and Jr had a fight off-camera (although Vinnie said that was BS too).


Also, Vinnie said that Lee took his money upfront and took off without doing/finishing the work. Vinnie also said that Lee claims that Jr. said "I own you". Which Vinnie said was garbage.

I think the bad blood with Lee came when Lee started fabricating and it was apparent Lee didn't have the talent to create what Jr. wanted. Jr. made Lee start over at least a couple of times from what I remember.


----------



## DanB

well, we really dont have enough info to determine what went on with Lee and PJD (same with Jr and Nubs), but I dont think PJD lost anything when Lee left.

I liked when Lee told Sr that he chose OCC because Sr could fix a bike broken down on the side of the road and Jr couldn't. That is some decision process. Most designers/engineers that I've worked with couldn't fix the thing they actually designed, much less something else. Their minds just don't work that way.


----------



## jbernardis

Does anybody know - is the series ending or just the season? The previews for next week show some pretty dire events, potentially, for the future of OCC. I'm wondering if Craig Piligian, or Discovery, pulled the plug on this one.


----------



## Malcontent

DanB said:


> I liked when Lee told Sr that he chose OCC because Sr could fix a bike broken down on the side of the road and Jr couldn't. That is some decision process.


Have you seen when Sr. tried to work on bikes in the shop? Sr. usually creates more problems that need to be fixed or his work as to be redone by someone else.


----------



## bareyb

jbernardis said:


> Does anybody know - is the series ending or just the season? The previews for next week show some pretty dire events, potentially, for the future of OCC. I'm wondering if Craig Piligian, or Discovery, pulled the plug on this one.


It's just the end of the Season. American Chopper has regained a lot support over at TLC and I think the ratings are doing okay as well. The Dire event is really just Senior trying to pressure the loan company to lower the value on his property and thus his payments. It's just a ploy. The bank sure as heck doesn't want to own that pink elephant so they probably won't actually follow through unless it's a last resort.


----------



## ahartman

The Faro bike was just sick. There was a flow to that bike that I haven't seen on any bike coming out of either shop in a long time. The paint job was silly good, too.

I think the thing with Sr. is that once you say something enough times, it starts to become the truth to you. I think he really believes he's the victim in all of this.

Lee is just a turd.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

I wish Jr's business was further along. It would have been hilarious to see OCC foreclosed on, only to have Jr buy the building for PJD.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

WhiskeyTango said:


> I wish Jr's business was further along. It would have been hilarious to see OCC foreclosed on, only to have Jr buy the building for PJD.


While it would be funny as hell, I doubt JR would do that. Just because he knows how much of a foolish investment it would be. What Sr. should do is auction off some of the more famous bikes and all the ones that he just has some sort of stupid attachment to. I'd bet that the Fire Bike would bring a buttload of cash at auction.



ahartman said:


> Lee is just a turd.


+1


----------



## marksman

I am pretty sure Junior could build a new bike from scratch before Senior could change the oil on a bike.


----------



## marksman

Jason is all about skulls these days... I assume giant boobed women will be all over the next few bikes too.

There is no filter or governor on Jason's designs now and they are becoming more and more adolescent.


----------



## gastrof

I'm watching one of the old reruns on DISCOVERY.

Sr. and one of those fancy cars he bought.

It won't start and he doesn't know where the battery is.


----------



## bareyb

gastrof said:


> I'm watching one of the old reruns on DISCOVERY.
> 
> Sr. and one of those fancy cars he bought.
> 
> It won't start and he doesn't know where the battery is.


LOL! I was just coming in to mention I was watching the same episode. TiVo decided to record it for me. Gander Mountain right? Very surreal seeing Junior and Senior working together and going camping and fooling around. It's sad to think that was only 3 years ago considering all that's happened.


----------



## gastrof

bareyb said:


> LOL! I was just coming in to mention I was watching the same episode. TiVo decided to record it for me. Gander Mountain right?...


That's the same one where they had a terrible fight where Paulie swore that Senior was going to run OCC into the ground.

Later, Senior was practically in tears (really) and said to Paulie 'We haven't fought like that in a long time, and I hate it'. They hugged, and even Jr. seemed on the verge of breaking down.

I'd like to see the two of them tied to chairs and forced to watch that scene again and again until they both snap out of it...especially Senior, since after the firing he's the one that's seemed to want to keep stoking the fire.


----------



## Dssturbo1

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> While it would be funny as hell, I doubt JR would do that. Just because he knows how much of a foolish investment it would be. What Sr. should do is auction off some of the more famous bikes and all the ones that he just has some sort of stupid attachment to. I'd bet that the Fire Bike would bring a buttload of cash at auction.


Sr just sold a 1960 Corvette and an OCC chopper he had built to match the Corvette at the recent Barrett Jackson auctions. The Corvette brought in ~$82,000 and the chopper ~$27,000 (then take off 10% auction fees).


----------



## windracer

Ok, how funny was the role reversal with Jr. and Odie this week? Coming in late, mouthing off to the "old man", etc. Seem familiar? Gotta wonder if the producers were egging Odie on.


----------



## DanB

windracer said:


> Ok, how funny was the role reversal with Jr. and Odie this week? Coming in late, mouthing off to the "old man", etc. Seem familiar? Gotta wonder if the producers were egging Odie on.


I would certainly hope not. Also, I dont really see the comparison between father/son and boss/employee.

Thats one of the big problems when you try to run a business with the employees as friends -- they usually end up blurring the lines between business and casual behavior.

I'm surprised Jr didnt tell Odie to wait for him in his office, send him home, and to call Jr when Odie thinks he's decided to behave. Maybe his deadline played a major factor -- I certainly he has some reason to put up with it. Afterall, he showed his colors on that quad.

Also, I wonder if OCCs painter/designer is still there.

And that scene with OCCs lawyer was completely made up -- like OCC is going to make the decision not to pay their mortgage without first discussing it with Sr?


----------



## ThreeSoFar'sBro

I read a report today online that OCC is trying to lower their $12M mortgage being that the building is worth no more than $8M. 

I wonder with all going on if Sr. is getting bad advice from some, or if he's on his own. 

Jr. is doing a good job keeping his cool. He's gone through a lot. I felt bad for him when Lee and Sr. were talking about Mikey and Sr. getting back together, with no mention of Jr.


----------



## jordanbsbll21

There was no preview for next weeks show... There is going to be a show next week right!?


----------



## jbernardis

jordanbsbll21 said:


> There was no preview for next weeks show... There is going to be a show next week right!?


I don't know what to think - the guide just has generic data, but I think there is supposed to be one more episode.


----------



## modnar

windracer said:


> Ok, how funny was the role reversal with Jr. and Odie this week? Coming in late, mouthing off to the "old man", etc. Seem familiar? Gotta wonder if the producers were egging Odie on.


I definitely see what you're saying and that was likely the intent of the producers in showing it this way, but there isn't a parallel between Odie's role at PJD and Paul Jr's role at OCC. As we've mentioned in this thread, that's the part Senior never seemed to understand: that Jr. was not there for labor. His designs were his value.

This is also illustrated in Senior's process for finding someone to fill in for Jason to "design" a bike. He goes to his painter with no bike design experience and basically says, "he can paint, so he can design a bike." Take it a step further, and Jason has become the designer since Paul left. In Senior's mind, Jason can draw bikes on the computer, so he must also be able to _design_ bikes.

That bike, by the way, was just ugly. Some of the details, such as the vents painted on the sides of the tank, just looked horrible painted on. That seems like one of those areas where Junior would push to actually put metal on the bike and Senior would think it was a waste of time.

And while the painter was totally out of line in arguing with Rick and thinking his design was the supreme-final-say, his tantrum helped highlight the fact that cutting corners by doing things like painting that side piece rather than actually cutting it out are really hurting OCC's designs.

By the way, I was waiting for Junior to send Odie home for the day or something. Just based on what we saw, Junior was more patient with Odie than I would have been.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

windracer said:


> Ok, how funny was the role reversal with Jr. and Odie this week? Coming in late, mouthing off to the "old man", etc. Seem familiar? Gotta wonder if the producers were egging Odie on.


But, what's more interesting is how Jr reacted. He mouthed off a bit but then decided to ramp it down and figure out what the best solution might be instead of just yelling.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

DanB said:


> And that scene with OCCs lawyer was completely made up -- like OCC is going to make the decision not to pay their mortgage without first discussing it with Sr?


The scene was made up to explain a business decision. Now, personally, I think it sucks to screw the bank like that but it does happen all the time. Business gets to do refis if they get a lower value of the property. Now, normal folks get screwed. Sr talks all the time about honor and ethics but has no problems f'ing over the bank. Jackwad.


----------



## bareyb

Odie, according to the Camera Crew is "a punk". He gives them a hard time too, so I don't think it was an act. I agree the proper thing to do would be to take him in the office and talk to him. He seems to think he has Jr. where he wants him right now, but I bet he'll be the first one out the door when he's no longer needed. 

I absolutely HATED the bike OCC did this week for St. Judes. The tank just didn't do it for me on this one dawg. Too big. I liked how it looked from above, but from the sides, it was just too big for my taste. The cutouts could have offset that and painting them on was just lame. The Painter guy was absolutely right. It changed the whole character of the bike. Not sure how smart it was for him to say on camera that OCC cuts corners, but he's right. I bet he's getting his ass chewed about right now over what he said though... Maybe Sr. will sue him for slander... 

I felt bad for Joe. Getting sued sucks. Been on the wrong side of that one once and it makes for some sleepless nights believe me. Even if you know you're right... Sounds like Junior is stepping up with his own Attorney so I thought that was pretty cool. Senior is truly a bully. Suing someone is the modern day equivalent of sending over your hired goons to threaten your family. I think it sucks what he's doing and it's a huge waste of money... :down:

On the flipside, did you Paulies eyes light up when that client ordered TWO bikes. Paulie's last couple of bikes have been very nice looking and well propotioned in my opinion. I'm looking forward to seeing what he comes up with next.


----------



## DanB

re OCCs bike. I just didnt see the connection on how it would appeal to sick kids. I was thinking make the gas tank be a fish tank or something. Make bubbles come out of the exhaust pipes  . And kids like bright gaudy colors, not sure if the all metal theme is appropriate. Maybe its good I dont design bikes!

As for Joe and the lawsuit,


Spoiler



from other forums it sounds like OCCs lawsuit didnt gain any traction.



As for the foreclosure, they are doing the same thing homeowners do -- the bank wont even negotiate with you until you have missed usually at least 3 payments. I do wonder though, with Jr being 20% owner, you'd think he would be kept informed of these things.


----------



## modnar

DanB said:


> I do wonder though, with Jr being 20% owner, you'd think he would be kept informed of these things.


Isn't this kind of thing part of the basis for his counter-suit?


----------



## marksman

So funny when you see senior try to explain to the painter what to do with the bike.

Senior literally has no idea how to build a custom bike.. It is comical.

Jr. will have to sit odie down and correct his attitude or else let him go. I was in a similar position with my own businesses when I was younger and you just can't let that continue. There is no problem with there being a back and forth and ribbing, but the employee needs to know when it is time to shut up and work.

I didn't get the lawyer explaining things to senior about the foreclosure at all. I guess it was for exposition, but it made Senior come across as completely dumb. What business owner would not know every single in and out of such a decision before it was made? They are making it look like the lawyers run the entire company now and Senior does nothing.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

It still seems weird to me that Vinnie is working for Jr. He has his own custom bike shop but seems to spend a lot of time at PJD helping a competitor. Then he brings Cody over. Is business really that slow at VForce? Or is it just a matter of editing.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

DanB said:


> re OCCs bike. I just didnt see the connection on how it would appeal to sick kids. I was thinking make the gas tank be a fish tank or something. Make bubbles come out of the exhaust pipes  . And kids like bright gaudy colors, not sure if the all metal theme is appropriate. Maybe its good I dont design bikes!
> 
> As for Joe and the lawsuit,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> from other forums it sounds like OCCs lawsuit didnt gain any traction.


Where did you read that? I'd agree but I'd like to see what people said.


----------



## DanB

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Where did you read that? I'd agree but I'd like to see what people said.


well, cant remember the exact URL, but I think there was a thread maybe two pages long in the show's forum on either TLC's or Discovery's site. I found it before by googling for Orange County Choppers (or maybe OCC) + Joe Puliafico + lawsuit (I think).


----------



## bareyb

WhiskeyTango said:


> It still seems weird to me that Vinnie is working for Jr. He has his own custom bike shop but seems to spend a lot of time at PJD helping a competitor. Then he brings Cody over. Is business really that slow at VForce? Or is it just a matter of editing.


I'm guessing he's being paid pretty well to be on the show. Plus, the more TV face time he gets, the better it will be for his own business.


----------



## Frylock

bareyb said:


> I'm guessing he's being paid pretty well to be on the show. Plus, the more TV face time he gets, the better it will be for his own business.


Yeah, if you notice he (and now Cody) are trying to mix in wearing some V-Force custom shirts in addition to the PJD shirts/hats that they wear.

I wonder if Jr. is worried to talk to Odie because he is trying hard to do exactly the opposite of Sr. He wishes that Sr. had just talked to him a little, and not yelled and whatnot, so he is taking that approach. What he is forgetting though is that he has grown up a lot himself, and Odie doesn't think like he does. He's a young punk, just like Jr. was back in the day.


----------



## Rkkeller

Where else would Odie be tolerated though? If that happened anywhere else but on TV, Odie would have been at least sent home and warned and many places let go. Someone was let go from where I work for insubordination and it wasn't even half as bad.

I would have liked to see Jr get serious and put his foot down. Not yell but act business like as he has 2 bikes to build in less than three weeks and doesn't need this nonsense every time he asks something of an employee.


----------



## Test

Rkkeller said:


> Where else would Odie be tolerated though? If that happened anywhere else but on TV, Odie would have been at least sent home and warned and many places let go. Someone was let go from where I work for insubordination and it wasn't even half as bad.
> 
> I would have liked to see Jr get serious and put his foot down. Not yell but act business like as he has 2 bikes to build in less than three weeks and doesn't need this nonsense every time he asks something of an employee.


I don't get the thing with Odie either. The kid is on tv doing what he loves to do (supposedly) with sometimes fun and sometimes serious people. Someone needs to sit him down and explain to him how good he has it.

How bad was the insubordination where you work?


----------



## Swirl_Junkie

I think Odie will be fired next week. This whole thing could have taken place over one, or just a few days of total disrespect. 
They might just be holding the firing for editing purposes. 

Last nights episode, you could see the Faro bike under a cover, and that was supposedly already unveiled in the episode before. 

They did have a sound bite of Junior screaming for someone to leave his shop. Unless it was an old clip, or Sr. Came to visit, who else could it be?


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

It does look like the Faro bike under the black sheet when Mikey walks by with the news paper. Then later there are two other bikes in different locations also under sheets. One of them appears to have web spokes. I assume that one is the Antivenom bike. I can't tell what the third is, but I assume it's the Geiko bike or maybe the Carolina Carports bike.

What is the red and black bike with a black frame that Vinnie and Cody were working on? It looks pretty basic. So basic that I wonder if PJD are making some "stock" bikes just to sell to generate cash? Sounds like a good idea to me.

There was also a red framed bike on the main (corner) lift but I think that was the road bike for the insurance company build.


----------



## robbhimself

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> What is the red and black bike with a black frame that Vinnie and Cody were working on? It looks pretty basic. So basic that I wonder if PJD are making some "stock" bikes just to sell to generate cash? Sounds like a good idea to me.


the company wanted 2 bikes, one to auction off to their employees, and one to represent the company


----------



## Eddief66

jordanbsbll21 said:


> There was no preview for next weeks show... There is going to be a show next week right!?


They've been advertising that next week's show will be the season finale. I guess that answers your question and my previous question. BTW, I just checked zap2it and it shows a total blank in that time slot.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

Guide data is in for the next episode, should be interesting based on the description.

Description:


Spoiler



Title: "Fired". Junior fires Odie for back talking and goes to Senior to seek counsel.


----------



## bareyb

WhiskeyTango said:


> Guide data is in for the next episode, should be interesting based on the description.
> 
> Description:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Title: "Fired". Junior fires Odie for back talking and goes to Senior to seek counsel.


NFW! That CAN'T be true. I think if that's true, then hell hath frozen over... I hope it is though...


----------



## marksman

bareyb said:


> NFW! That CAN'T be true. I think if that's true, then hell hath frozen over... I hope it is though...





Spoiler



I assume it means odie goes to senior to seek counsel.


----------



## Frylock

bareyb said:


> NFW! That CAN'T be true. I think if that's true, then hell hath frozen over... I hope it is though...


Man, now THAT is an episode I am psyched to see!


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

marksman said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I assume it means odie goes to senior to seek counsel.


Wouldn't that be a violation of his non compete clause. ;-)


----------



## bareyb

marksman said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I assume it means odie goes to senior to seek counsel.


Ah. MUCH more likely... I wish it were the other way around... THAT would have been some good TV.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

bareyb said:


> Ah. MUCH more likely... I wish it were the other way around... THAT would have been some good TV.


It will still be amusing but if it is true, he deserves it. I hate it that it came to that but I think the whole thing went to his head.


----------



## pizzano

So lets run it down.

Fired by OCC [probably cause of his mouth, but he was flappin about Sr]

Runs to Jr and gets hired [cause he wasnt talking crap about him]

Jr gives him the opportunity of a lifetime to run his 2nd customer build.
ON top of that BlingStar throws him a bone.

Odies head swells beyond it limits and proceeds to burns his bridges.

Fired by Jr for running his mouth, lost his BlingStar ride id bet for the same thing.

Then runs to Sr to try and get even some how and maybe get some scraps.
Sr pumps him for info then tosses him out like an old Kleenex.

Odie now spends his day in his parents basement on meth updating his enemies list daily while he smears on lipstick to a 50s tune


----------



## gastrof

If at least half this stuff isn't being scripted the whole situation is just plain weird.

What happens next season? Odie opens his own bike shop and the rivalry between him and Jr. begins as OCC goes down in flames?


----------



## pizzano

gastrof said:


> If at least half this stuff isn't being scripted the whole situation is just plain weird.
> 
> What happens next season? Odie opens his own bike shop and the rivalry between him and Jr. begins as OCC goes down in flames?


Well believe it or not , this show is not scripted, that is why it is the hardest program on TV to produce, it takes at least 45 days to produce one episode in between all the driectors and others behind the scenes cutting of almost 60percent of what you never see, thats what makes it the hardest show to put on TV.


----------



## Numb And Number2

pizzano said:


> Odie now spends his day in his parents basement on meth updating his enemies list daily while he smears on lipstick to a 50s tune


Life in a basement, paranoia, and exploring his feminine side might serve him well. That kid has prison on his dance card.


----------



## innocentfreak

It was funny to watch Odie just completely lie about what happened.


----------



## knuckles

Odie should have been fired a long time ago. I hope Sr watched the show last night and learned something. (I don't have much faith in that though.) 

The bike Jr built really looked great. I wish we were able to see more of the details of the bike. A nice wrap around shot after it's all done would really be nice.


----------



## windracer

innocentfreak said:


> It was funny to watch Odie just completely lie about what happened.


Yeah, is he a complete idiot? Does he not remember the whole situation was being filmed?

Nice to see Senior is fine with getting money for his foundation as long as it's his staff who have to shave, not him. :down:


----------



## bareyb

innocentfreak said:


> It was funny to watch Odie just completely lie about what happened.


Yeah. That was weird... He had to know it was being taped... I wonder if the producers edited out Junior saying "I can do it better than you" or whatever Odie said he said. But whatever, that doesn't change the fact that Odie is a tool. 

I really liked Jrs new creation. The Ghost tank was cool. Did anyone else think it looked better without the big Chrome pieces covering the sides? I thought it looked more wicked when you could actually see the frame underneath.


----------



## mostman

Remember all the (mis)information Paul Sr was getting leaked to him about Jrs shop? The stuff about Vinny doing all the work and Jr never showing up? Yeah, I guess we know where that came from.

The fact that Sr would even TALK to that snot nose punk and couldn't see right through him in about 10 seconds tells me everything I need to know about Srs business IQ. He is a zero. Good news for him is that success can be occasionally obtained through sheer luck.


----------



## mostman

Here is another thing I thought of. You are John Smith of Smith Paint Company and you want a custom bike built for you. You do some research and realize either Jr or OCC might be a good place. After watching this show, you could do the following:

1) Hire Jr
2) Hire OCC
3) Hire neither

I can see this show slightly increasing the odds of 1) and 3) and DRASTICALLY reducing the odds of 2. Why then has Sr not pulled the plug on all this? The show has to be costing him business at this point. Unless we subscribed to the 'even bad publicity is better than no publicity' school of thought. Does he honestly believe he is coming out of this looking good? Does he honestly believe that potential clients will look at the President of the company kibitzing with a 17 year old punk in a favorable manor?


----------



## bareyb

mostman said:


> Here is another thing I thought of. You are John Smith of Smith Paint Company and you want a custom bike built for you. You do some research and realize either Jr or OCC might be a good place. After watching this show, you could do the following:
> 
> 1) Hire Jr
> 2) Hire OCC
> 3) Hire neither
> 
> I can see this show slightly increasing the odds of 1) and 3) and DRASTICALLY reducing the odds of 2. Why then has Sr not pulled the plug on all this? The show has to be costing him business at this point. Unless we subscribed to the 'even bad publicity is better than no publicity' school of thought. Does he honestly believe he is coming out of this looking good? Does he honestly believe that potential clients will look at the President of the company kibitzing with a 17 year old punk in a favorable manor?


Don't forget. Reality shows pay pretty decent money these days. He may still be doing it simply for that, although I have to say, Senior is probably still getting business simply due to the fact that he's on TV. If the show ever really gets cancelled, then I think that will be the real end of OCC.


----------



## DanB

bareyb said:


> The Ghost tank was cool. Did anyone else think it looked better without the big Chrome pieces covering the sides?


Without the side plates, I think it would have been better if the backbone wasnt visible in the middle of the tank. They could have figured out a way to do it -- maybe the deadline was too close.


----------



## Satchel

Anyone read the NYT article on this season? I'll try to find a link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/07/business/media/07chopper.html?scp=1&sq=chopper&st=cse


----------



## Frylock

Satchel said:


> Anyone read the NYT article on this season? I'll try to find a link.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/07/business/media/07chopper.html?scp=1&sq=chopper&st=cse


The best part of the article is them referring to them as 'Mr. Teuttel Sr.' and 'Mr. Teuttel Jr.'


----------



## Eddief66

I wonder what Odie's father thinks about all this. First his son's fired for having a bad attitude then he lies about it on Tv. Nice son you've got there, Mr. Oden.


----------



## DanB

Eddief66 said:


> I wonder what Odie's father thinks about all this. First his son's fired for having a bad attitude then he lies about it on Tv. Nice son you've got there, Mr. Oden.


well, I've never met someone that really told the complete truth about why they were fired. You know the old saying -- there's my side, your side, and what really happened. 

I would hope he'd be more concerned over what a d-bag Odie came off as on just about every episode Odie was in.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

pizzano said:


> Sr pumps him for info then tosses him out like an old Kleenex.
> 
> Odie now spends his day in his parents basement on meth updating his enemies list daily while he smears on lipstick to a 50s tune


LOL! Someone's been watching too much Billy Madison!


----------



## Satchel

And the headlines keep coming for Paul Sr.

This time it's steroid and human growth hormone prescriptions...who's surprised?

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Choppers-founder-on-steroids-list-999453.php#page-1


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

robbhimself said:


> the company wanted 2 bikes, one to auction off to their employees, and one to represent the company


I knew that but for some reason, I thought the main build bike had a different colored frame. Now that I see this episode, I can see the the two bikes I referred to were the Ins. Co. bikes.

I guess it looks like Odie is the prime suspect as to who was leaking information to Sr. but there are some things that don't add up. It seems that this was when Jr & the gang took the picture that Poole photoshopped Sr.'s face onto. So there is no way that Odie could have leaked that to him. I don't think Odie was the one that let it be known that Jr. missed the deadline on the quad build. Especially since he was the one in charge. UNLESS he did it intentionally.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

Satchel said:


> And the headlines keep coming for Paul Sr.
> 
> This time it's steroid and human growth hormone prescriptions...who's surprised?
> 
> http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Choppers-founder-on-steroids-list-999453.php#page-1


It explain a few things about his behavior.


----------



## Frylock

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> . I don't think Odie was the one that let it be known that Jr. missed the deadline on the quad build. Especially since he was the one in charge. UNLESS he did it intentionally.


You are giving Odie WAY too much credit. He lied about being fired even though he had to know it would be on TV. Why wouldn't he lie about this and not think about how it makes him look.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

You might be right about that.


----------



## bareyb

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> It explain a few things about his behavior.


It would also explain why Senior has lost so much size and weight in the last year or so. I bet he's off the 'roids now.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> It explain a few things about his behavior.


That was certainly my first thought.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

bareyb said:


> It would also explain why Senior has lost so much size and weight in the last year or so. I bet he's off the 'roids now.


I was thinking the same thing. Or he is sick.


----------



## marksman

I can give a moment of pause to someone who chooses to use steroids because it allows them to perform better at something they do for a living... although not agree with it.

To just take steroids to be a big dummy... That is just about as idiotic as one can be.

The Bic bike did not totally suck because I assume the Bic people actually probably designed the whole bike and just told OCC to build it. Otherwise it would have had some skull heads on it.

Although the razor wheels are definitely a Jason special as he has only used them on 20 previous bikes. Finally had a use for them and they are played out.


----------



## dilbert27

Just saw that a new season of american chopper to start April 25th on Discovery channel.


----------



## dilbert27

Just a reminder that the new season of American Chopper starts tonight on Discovery Channel.


----------



## marksman

Wow thanks. I would have totally missed this.


----------



## Frylock

Watched the episode last night. No surprises... Seems like NOTHING has changed, and nothing will change. The only thing that did change is I am through with supporting either one of them. Before I thought they each were making some effort. Now, I feel like none of them have any interest in changing anything.


----------



## jbernardis

I think they WANT to reconcile, but they are both too stubborn to take the first step. I think Senior is deluding himself when he says he's reaching out. Yes - he DID make some attempts with Mikey, but he has done nothing with Junior except exacerbate the situation with lawsuits and acrimony (at least so far as they've shown us).

I can see the two of them being divided and not speaking to one another. I just can't justify - no matter the situation - a father sabotaging, undermining, and bad mouthing his own son on national TV. Not much of a father in my opinion.


----------



## Frylock

jbernardis said:


> I think they WANT to reconcile, but they are both too stubborn to take the first step. I think Senior is deluding himself when he says he's reaching out. Yes - he DID make some attempts with Mikey, but he has done nothing with Junior except exacerbate the situation with lawsuits and acrimony (at least so far as they've shown us).
> 
> I can see the two of them being divided and not speaking to one another. I just can't justify - no matter the situation - a father sabotaging, undermining, and bad mouthing his own son on national TV. Not much of a father in my opinion.


I agree that he did try and reconcile with Mikey, but Mikey turned his back on him. In that relationship, I blame Mikey, not Sr. In Sr and Jr, it is mostly Sr. Constantly suing him and what-not is not going to mend fences. I think he has tried in his own way (sending the card over last year) but Jr doesn't see it that way (not that I blame him).

I feel bad for Jr's wife. She seems to just sort of "be there" without ever saying anything anymore! I wonder if Cody is still working there part-time. I didn't see him around.


----------



## jbernardis

Frylock said:


> I agree that he did try and reconcile with Mikey, but Mikey turned his back on him. In that relationship, I blame Mikey, not Sr.


I agree with this. I was actually angry with Mikey for putting conditions on his father and then backing down when his father called his bluff.

I think that Mikey wants to be unified with Junior - he wants Senior to reconcile with both of them or neither of them - but (to his credit) Junior seems willing to accept that Mikey has his own relationship with their father and does not seem to be standing in the way of their (Senior and Mikey)reconciliation.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Until Sr stops suing the kids it will never be over. It's abusive and he knows it. He's a bully and he's OK with it most of the time. Sure, he gets maudlin from time to time but he'd rather be right that have a relationship with his father.

As for Mikey, he's an alcoholic and he's not going to cut of the only real source of support he has in Jr. I think he saw Sr's approach as not being genuine and that Sr was doing it for less than altruistic reasons. In the end, keeping a relationship with his brother was more important than have a tenuous one with hid dad. At least Mikey's friends and mother are still there for him. He's still a mess.


----------



## vertigo235

Mikey simply doesn't agree with what his father is doing. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## jeepair

... on to more important things.

I liked watching the casting of the Bronz and Rick breaking a piece. Wish they showed more of that. The star screens on the JR bike look fantastic and hope it turns out that well after painting.

Art show: I liked Mikey's paintings of people, not so much of the splash on paint.

... Must be expensive to keep flying that guy (and lodging him) from the west coast to build gas tanks.


----------



## marksman

It is interesting watching that guy work though. I am a huge Rick fan, but it seems so much more effortless for him to build stuff than it is for Rick. Rick really has to work hard, and it seems this guy just has an innate ability to make parts that look amazing and doing so while making it appear effortless.

I figure at this point I am biased, so I have a hard time comparing the bikes any more, because I think the OCC bike looked dumb and the JR bike looked good. I continue to ponder the different styles and it comes into my head as such...

Say they are both sculptors that are going to build a sculpture. OCC's method is to draw a picture of what they want to sculpt and then try to reproduce it. Jr's method is to get his hands in the clay and just see where things go.

This was always the fundamental rift between Jr and SR when it came to bike building. I don't think Sr. ever understood or appreciated Jr.'s process, or his ability to make decisions on the fly that end up creating a real interesting product.

I think Vinnie and the guy sometimes get frustrated with Jr.s vision remaining in Jr.s head, but when they end up creating the stuff they do, I think you just accept it and realize that is how you end up getting there.

I will say I never knew there were companies out there who just built cymbals. When they first said the name I thought it was "Super Natural Symbols" and they were selling voodoo dolls or something.


----------



## jeepair

marksman said:


> I will say I never knew there were companies out there who just built cymbals. When they first said the name I thought it was "Super Natural Symbols" and they were selling voodoo dolls or something.


I thought it had something to do with the TV show, Supernatural.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

I don't know how much time had passed since the last season and this. But it doesn't seem that much had changed. I think Junior has pretty much resigned to notion that his father won't change. Mikey is getting there.

BTW, did anyone else notice that Mikey had seemed to have trimmed off a lot of his hair when he was telling Vinnie and Jr. about the gallery opening? Then during the opening his hair was long again. What's up with that? Was the invitation to Vin & Jr. a staged scene?

Good for Mikey and the gallery. I hope he can keep making money and make a living at that he enjoys.

Senior's reaction to the suggestion from the father with terminal cancer. Wow. He continues to make excuses for himself and refuses to realize that the main thing dividing him from his sons is his constant undermining and lawsuits. If he really wants to patch things up, he has to drop the lawsuit.


----------



## Frylock

Jr's process is great, but bad for companies who want something to approve. If they are going to spend the CRAZY money these bikes cost, they want some say in it. That's where the rift came from. Sr. understood the "business" side of building bikes. Jr never has,and has only started to. He always got the "design" side of things. The two need one another, but both are too idiotic and stubborn to realize it, and find a way to compromise for the good of their product.

I also wonder how much their prices have dropped from what they used to be.


----------



## snowjay

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> Senior's reaction to the suggestion from the father with terminal cancer. Wow. He continues to make excuses for himself and refuses to realize that the main thing dividing him from his sons is his constant undermining and lawsuits. If he really wants to patch things up, he has to drop the lawsuit.


I hate that he so conveniently forgets that he FIRED Jr., not that Jr. left and was free to come back as he now tells the story. The man makes it up as he goes along and believes the garbage that he spews.

Yeah, Jr. like to come in late and take long lunches but from what I saw the guy always stayed late and never missed a deadline. He was part owner by that point, cut him some slack for christ's sake, he's also your son.

IMHO, OCC would of never been a blip on the map if it wasn't for Jr's creativity and designs, despite what fantasyland Sr lives in. I think they may have gotten too big to handle it all, not to mention inflate Sr's ego.

I really don't like too many of the bikes OCC is producing lately, many of their "custom" bikes were just their stock bikes with a lot of tacked on stuff that comes out of the waterjet with a few exceptions (usually a tank by Rick).


----------



## aRKade

snowjay said:


> I hate that he so conveniently forgets that he FIRED Jr., not that Jr. left and was free to come back as he now tells the story. The man makes it up as he goes along and believes the garbage that he spews.
> 
> Yeah, Jr. like to come in late and take long lunches but from what I saw the guy always stayed late and never missed a deadline. He was part owner by that point, cut him some slack for christ's sake, he's also your son.
> 
> IMHO, OCC would of never been a blip on the map if it wasn't for Jr's creativity and designs, despite what fantasyland Sr lives in. I think they may have gotten too big to handle it all, not to mention inflate Sr's ego.
> 
> I really don't like too many of the bikes OCC is producing lately, many of their "custom" bikes were just their stock bikes with a lot of tacked on stuff that comes out of the waterjet with a few exceptions (usually a tank by Rick).


While I am not a fan of Paul Sr. and do agree that OCC's 'custom' bikes aren't much to marvel at I think Jr. has to take some of the heat also. As part owner in a company he should have been setting an example for his employees. Plus the fact that most of his design ideas are in his head it makes it pretty difficult to work on the bikes when he isn't there to guide the project. And while he may have stayed late and never missed a deadline he also forced others to stay late and put in more time than he did since they arrived to work on time. Not a fair way to treat your employees.

I am interested to see what the Jared Allen bike looks like after paint. While I think it could look pretty good it is also lacking as far as customization. Basically just a widened gas tank, some stars cut out on the waterjet and a jerrycan stuck on the side for an oil tank. And the only thing Jr. did was cut some holes in the rear fender to put the star screens into.


----------



## snowjay

aRKade said:


> While I am not a fan of Paul Sr. and do agree that OCC's 'custom' bikes aren't much to marvel at I think Jr. has to take some of the heat also. As part owner in a company he should have been setting an example for his employees. Plus the fact that most of his design ideas are in his head it makes it pretty difficult to work on the bikes when he isn't there to guide the project. And while he may have stayed late and never missed a deadline he also forced others to stay late and put in more time than he did since they arrived to work on time. Not a fair way to treat your employees.
> 
> I am interested to see what the Jared Allen bike looks like after paint. While I think it could look pretty good it is also lacking as far as customization. Basically just a widened gas tank, some stars cut out on the waterjet and a jerrycan stuck on the side for an oil tank. And the only thing Jr. did was cut some holes in the rear fender to put the star screens into.


I understand your point, but I don't think anyone ever sat on their arse waiting for Jr., there was always something else to be done. But that's not to say Jr. wasn't at fault (and he can be a primadonna at times), and people did stay late but I think his father always over reacted to the situation. It's not like Jr. was 2-3hrs late everyday like Mikey. I still say Jr. has gotten the short end of the stick because all of this drama was created and perpetuated by Sr. and solely Sr. I feel bad for Jr. you can see the hurt in his eyes.

There are photos of the Jared Allen bike online. I think it looks pretty good, simple but good. Not everything needs a lot of flash and I think this was one of those times where less is more.


----------



## Frylock

snowjay said:


> IMHO, OCC would of never been a blip on the map if it wasn't for Jr's creativity and designs, despite what fantasyland Sr lives in. I think they may have gotten too big to handle it all, not to mention inflate Sr's ego.


Ehh, I think it was more the tv show and the drama than Jr's designs. There's always been plenty of bike and car shows. It was the whole family dynamic that made the show more appealing to a mass audience, than just motorcycle fans.

And if Jr came to work on time, then he wouldn't have to work late. He was lazy. He knows it (he seems to come to work a lot more when its his butt on the line at the new shop)

And while Sr. fired Jr, if Jr had wanted to come back, he could have IMO. The two of them will always fight and butt heads.


----------



## windracer

marksman said:


> When they first said the name I thought it was "Super Natural Symbols" and they were selling voodoo dolls or something.


Me too. Until now the only cymbal company I really had heard of was Zildjian.

The OCC band isn't that good. 

The first unveil without Senior ... goes to show how important he is now, and doesn't even really care anymore.


----------



## marksman

Yeah he seems to almost totally removed from OCC. This latest episode seems even moreso. He is off doing all kinds of things, and seems barely involved.

I can't believe that abortion of a bike they made either... I was talking about my bias, but I can't look at the bike they made the last two weeks at OCC and the bike Paul JR. made and think they are even in the same business.

If I was a betting man, Senior is massively depressed at this point and completely stuck. I almost feel like Jr. will reach out to Senior just because they are just embarassing themselves at OCC at this point and no matter what bad blood there is, Jr. probably gets upset by that.

The more I think about it, I can't think of another build bike for the show that was nearly as bad as the one OCC put out this week, and last week's bike was no great shakes. It is like they took the last bike with its off kilter paint scheme and said, "Okay now lets really busy and muddle this sucker up and add some dollar bills to it so it is just a hot mess."

This kind of goes back to customers approving art work and the like. If the customers could design bikes they wouldn't need them would they? They could just design it and have someone build it. Paul Jr. actually creates artwork with his bikes and he pretty much always delivers something that is worthwhile.

If I was putting my company's money up for a bike build there is no way I could ever pick OCC over Paul Jr. I would let Paul Jr. do it, and wouldn't care about artwork approval if that was the path I was going to go. If I just needed a bike with corporate logos slapped on it, I would find someone else to do it. It would be missing Jr.s talents, and I would never trust OCC with anything these days.


----------



## Swirl_Junkie

It's getting painfully obvious that there will be some sort of reunion. With the Man last week with Cancer, with Will from Red Jacket commenting, and Jr.'s reply being he thinks something will happen, I wouldn't be surprised if it already hasn't behind the scenes. 
I didn't watch the new opening sequence very closely, but it looked like Jr. And Sr. were in the same room when the bikes are facing each other. Easy enough to fake, and I didn't go back and look, but I think them speaking is inevitable now.


----------



## nataylor

Just found this article (from March) about how Senior seems to want to get out of his foreclosure by building a new headquarters across the street under a new company name:

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110318/BIZ/103180372


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

nataylor said:


> Just found this article (from March) about how Senior seems to want to get out of his foreclosure by building a new headquarters across the street under a new company name:
> 
> http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110318/BIZ/103180372


Ethically, a pretty sketchy more, it would appear.


----------



## Frylock

Very sketchy. I'd think the developer/town would work with them more. It's not like anyone else will ever use that building. But 25K square feet for the new space? Even that seems to big to me!


----------



## kdonnel

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Ethically, a pretty sketchy more, it would appear.


As is pointed out in every foreclosure thread.

It's not a matter of morals, they don't even come into play, it's just business.


----------



## Frylock

On the positive note (this thread sure doesn't have a lot of that!) it was nice to hear that Sr. and Danny got together. They were not speaking long before Jr and Sr got into it, so it must have been something for the two of them to reconcile. I think their reconciliation will cause Mikey to reconsider, and thus bring Jr into the fold.

I think Sr is FINALLY starting to realize there is more to family than business. Especially as he gets older. And if as it seems, he loses the lawsuit...

Edit: From here it seems like the lawsuit was settled out of court.

2nd Edit: From here  it provides the info for next week's episode, for those curious.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

kdonnel said:


> As is pointed out in every foreclosure thread.
> 
> It's not a matter of morals, they don't even come into play, it's just business.


I was referring to the idea that they tried to get more development money by hiding the fact that Sr was behind the new company. Sleazy.

But, since you brought it up, even in business, that's still a moral issue. Defaulting on a loan in business may be economically OK but that doesn't make it morally Ok any more than it does for a person. You took a loan, you agreed to pay. You don't want to, so you default. Crappy way to do business.


----------



## aRKade

Rachel bowfishing and shooting a 50cal machine gun - HOT!

The Jared Allen bike - fantastic!! Much better than expected. The front fork, handlebars and colors were perfect. My only complaint would be the wheels. They almost seemed too flashy compared to the rest of the bike. My previous favorite bike of Jr's was the Fighter Plane bike and this one ranks right up there with it.

The Money bike - Ugliest. Bike. Ever.


----------



## snowjay

The OCC bike was just gaudy. The bills on the tins weren't bad but once they put that bright green scroll work over them, it looked cartoonish. It's not even the right shade of green for money. I won't even go into the gold wheels.

No one can paint better than Nubby. Jr. was smart getting him to paint his bikes. Nubby would of hand painted all those bills.


----------



## nataylor

The bills drove me crazy. They weren't centered or symmetrical. That water-dipping technique might be good for some things, but it seems to be less than ideal for a rectangular grid.

And I don't fault OCC for the gaudiness. Seems they delivered exactly what the client wanted.


----------



## ncsercs

Goes to show money can't buy taste.


----------



## aRKade

nataylor said:


> The bills drove me crazy. They weren't centered or symmetrical. That water-dipping technique might be good for some things, but it seems to be less than ideal for a rectangular grid.
> 
> And I don't fault OCC for the gaudiness. Seems they delivered exactly what the client wanted.


While this is true OCC could have also not featured this bike for the build. This is the third bike done for this particular customer and they didn't feature either of the other two bikes in previous episodes that I know of. I would guess that with the number of skilled employees and the size of the shop they have more than one custom project going on at a time.

Jr. doesn't really have much of a choice. He is a small shop still looking for business and basically has one project going on at a time.

Of course it is also possible the producers wanted to feature this bike knowing it would be ugly. Wouldn't be surprised if they are doing what they can to create "bad guy vs good guy". They want as much drama as possible to keep people interested.


----------



## Frylock

I also don't fault OCC for the tacky bike. The customer wants tacky, you give them tacky. It's too bad, because the other bikes for him looked good.

I do wonder if they have more than 1 custom build going on at a time. How many employees do you think they have? It seems to be under 20 (from when Sr. took them out to eat that 1 time). A far, far fall from their peak!


----------



## snowjay

But the customer gave them free reign. They could of still designed a better looking bike.


----------



## marksman

Yeah I think JR. would have still delivered a bike the customer loved without making it look hideous.


----------



## Frylock

The design did reek of Jason Poole's not so great design skills...


----------



## snowjay

That's a nice way of putting it. 


This is why Jr would always sit with him and design something...


----------



## Frylock

I think his problem is that without Jr, there's no one to reign him in. He has total control, which is scary. He just doesn't have the experience to know when to back off...


----------



## snowjay

I think you are exactly right, yet Sr. always thought Jr. was wasting time working with him. You know if your not out on the floor wrenching you're not working.


----------



## vertigo235

snowjay said:


> I think you are exactly right, yet Sr. always thought Jr. was wasting time working with him. You know if your not out on the floor wrenching you're not working.


Well by this standard, Sr. does and has always done the least amount of work of any of them.

Seriously, he may have got to the shop early, but I bet all he ever did was sit around and drank coffee and yell at people.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

I really liked the Jared Allen bike. I think it is the best military themed bike that has been on the show. Hands down. Mostly because of the simplicity. It had that WWII feel to it. 

So, it appears that Jr. got the ruling that he was looking for. It also appears that Sr may be considering dropping the suit or at least making a reasonable offer on Jr.'s 20% share. Also, it was good to see Sr. going to Mikey's studio. I wonder if he was genuine in his thoughts and comments on the art. Though, he might have mended a bridge or two if he'd bought the "Remember When Daddy Loved Us?" painting. 

BTW, I am really looking forward to seeing the Pontiac bikes finished and with their respective cars. Not to mention that the 2011 Hearst Edition Trans Am Firebird looks BAD ASS!!!


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

I'm waiting for GM to sue that company for trademark infringement by using all the Trans Am stuff. 

I think the Sr stuff at Mikey's studio was fake. It affected me but I doubt he really cares. 

Glad to see that Sr didn't get away with trying to steal juniors part of the company. Amusing how both he and his lawyer refused to say they lost. What a tool. 

As for the three bikes.... How hard is it to build three, nearly identical bikes? I also find it amusing that they one have shots of Senior "working" in the shop. I guess they're trying to rehab his image.


----------



## Frylock

IJustLikeTivo said:


> I'm waiting for GM to sue that company for trademark infringement by using all the Trans Am stuff.
> 
> I think the Sr stuff at Mikey's studio was fake. It affected me but I doubt he really cares.
> 
> Glad to see that Sr didn't get away with trying to steal juniors part of the company. Amusing how both he and his lawyer refused to say they lost. What a tool.
> 
> As for the three bikes.... How hard is it to build three, nearly identical bikes? I also find it amusing that they one have shots of Senior "working" in the shop. I guess they're trying to rehab his image.


That was not the final outcome though. Sr. appealed the decision, and then they have settled out of court. So I am sure there was some value greater than 0, but less than what Paulie wanted. I am curious what the final value was.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Frylock said:


> That was not the final outcome though. Sr. appealed the decision, and then they have settled out of court. So I am sure there was some value greater than 0, but less than what Paulie wanted. I am curious what the final value was.


I based my comments on the show. However, the final outcome of the court case is what they showed, no? Paul won the appeal. The court told Sr he couldn't force the sale at the $0 valuation as he tried to get and that forced Sr to the table where they agreed on a number.

In doing some research, it appears that the appellate judges said that in this case, the sales contract was too vague in how the value was determined to be enforceable. If the contract had a specific method of valuation or a stipulated value, it might have been considered binding. Since, in this case, the contract said it was an agreement to agree and they couldn't, it was not enforceable. After that, it appears that they negotiated a settlement before their next meeting with the judge and the case is not disposed.


----------



## Frylock

IJustLikeTivo said:


> I based my comments on the show. However, the final outcome of the court case is what they showed, no? Paul won the appeal. The court told Sr he couldn't force the sale at the $0 valuation as he tried to get and that forced Sr to the table where they agreed on a number.
> 
> In doing some research, it appears that the appellate judges said that in this case, the sales contract was too vague in how the value was determined to be enforceable. If the contract had a specific method of valuation or a stipulated value, it might have been considered binding. Since, in this case, the contract said it was an agreement to agree and they couldn't, it was not enforceable. After that, it appears that they negotiated a settlement before their next meeting with the judge and the case is not disposed.


I understand the comments based on the show. But as you said, yes, the FINAL outcome of the lawsuit has changed from this episode of the show. I wonder what happened with the Joe lawsuit. I hope they threw that out. That was garbage.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Frylock said:


> I understand the comments based on the show. But as you said, yes, the FINAL outcome of the lawsuit has changed from this episode of the show. I wonder what happened with the Joe lawsuit. I hope they threw that out. That was garbage.


Not to pick, but I don't think the outcome of the suit changed at all. Sr lost after the appeal. If he appealed that decision, it ended with their settlement. So the last court decision was Jr's appeal begin upheld.


----------



## snowjay

I think the T/A and GTO bikes will look good, although not sure I like how they are all pretty much the same just with different accents. The CrankyApe bike looks wild. I can't wait to see that painted.


----------



## tripmac

This may sound crazy, but if I was marketing the new Trans Ams and one of them was the Smokey and Bandit theme, I am not sold on the tie in to a motorcycle. My marketing plan would be to buy a transfer truck and trailer and a police car and "remake" the cars from the movie and ride up the road. Not a motorcycle.


----------



## windracer

I don't think the Bandit TransAm was part of their new marketing push. It just happened to be in the shop when they were giving Sr. the tour.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

windracer said:


> I don't think the Bandit TransAm was part of their new marketing push. It just happened to be in the shop when they were giving Sr. the tour.


I don't know about that. The drawing that Sr had that he showed to Mike and Rick looked a whole lot like a modern version of the T/A that was used in the Smokey & The Bandit movies.

I don't think they are specifically trying to tie the new car to the movie. But that black and gold Firebird is iconic.


----------



## ahartman

Bleh to this weeks show. TheOCC crew heads to Alaska for a vacation. We get about 15 minutes of actual bike time and it's another mediocre bike. 

Junior was nowhere to be found in this episode except for Sr saying Mikey and Jr couldn't handle the stuff the OCC guys were doing because they are sissies. 

At this point I'd rather see a show that's just Jr building bikes and dump Sr altogether.


----------



## Gerryex

ahartman said:


> Bleh to this weeks show. TheOCC crew heads to Alaska for a vacation. We get about 15 minutes of actual bike time and it's another mediocre bike.
> 
> Junior was nowhere to be found in this episode except for Sr saying Mikey and Jr couldn't handle the stuff the OCC guys were doing because they are sissies.
> 
> At this point I'd rather see a show that's just Jr building bikes and dump Sr altogether.


100% AGREE!!! Worst episode ever. I really enjoy all the stuff about JR and his business and almost hate the stuff about SR!

Way, way back when JR first got fired by SR, weren't there a few episodes where they at least got together to talk and I think I remember them deciding that it was best they they go their own ways. And I even remember SR wishing JR well in his business. When did it get so sour that EVERYTHING out of SR's mouth is an insult to JR and his work and ultimatly all the law suits.

Gerry


----------



## Frylock

This episode was just American Chopper and Deadliest Catch patting each other on the back. Next week is very interesting. I wish they would do more 'head-to-head' bikes to see how different they come out. I am sure Paulie's designs will be better.


----------



## Frylock

Though I did catch that when they flew into Homer, AK, they flew on Era Airlines, from the OTHER discover show, 'Flying Wild Alaska'.


----------



## bubba1972

I think I watched this episode in about 10 minutes. I figured he would complain that the crab sissy bar looked like one of Paul Jr's spider bikes.


----------



## jeepair

I wanted more gunplay from Johnathan and Andy. They would have enjoyed a few bottles of tannerite.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

Frylock said:


> Though I did catch that when they flew into Homer, AK, they flew on Era Airlines, from the OTHER discover show, 'Flying Wild Alaska'.


This show has become the networks incestuous bastard child. They did a John & Kate bike when they were on TLC, the guys from Sons of Guns a few weeks ago and now DC.


----------



## nataylor

WhiskeyTango said:


> This show has become the networks incestuous bastard child. They did a John & Kate bike when they were on TLC, the guys from Sons of Guns a few weeks ago and now DC.


Probably because the market for theme bikes from OCC is pretty scarce. So the network gives them some work to do, so they at least have a show to shoot.


----------



## snowjay

ahartman said:


> Bleh to this weeks show. TheOCC crew heads to Alaska for a vacation. We get about 15 minutes of actual bike time and it's another mediocre bike.
> 
> Junior was nowhere to be found in this episode except for Sr saying Mikey and Jr couldn't handle the stuff the OCC guys were doing because they are sissies.
> 
> At this point I'd rather see a show that's just Jr building bikes and dump Sr altogether.


No kidding. Way to dis your sons dad, yeah you are so adventurous, you can't last a half day on the boat before you're being a sissy yourself and asking to go back in. 

I'd much rather see Jr., Vinnie & Nubs actually do something for an hour.


----------



## bareyb

Yeah I agree that was kind of lame... All the shooting and exploding stuff is growing weary on me. Is it REALLY that funny? Really? They all seem like a bunch of morons sometimes.


----------



## windracer

Ugh, I love Deadliest Catch but this was a terrible cross-over episode. I snickered when the announcer at the convention (wow, they have conventions?) said that the bike was built "by Senior himself!" Yeah, right. 

This is going to sound wrong, but Jonathan mentioned he lost a crew member on the Time Bandit when they were at the memorial. Am I forgetting someone, or is this a "spoiler" for the current season?


----------



## snowjay

windracer said:


> This is going to sound wrong, but Jonathan mentioned he lost a crew member on the Time Bandit when they were at the memorial. Am I forgetting someone, or is this a "spoiler" for the current season?





Spoiler



One of their crew members was found dead in a hotel room back in Feb.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

snowjay said:


> No kidding. Way to dis your *son's dad*, yeah you are so adventurous, you can't last a half day on the boat before you're being a sissy yourself and asking to go back in.
> 
> I'd much rather see Jr., Vinnie & Nubs actually do something for an hour.


Had to think about that. The possessive makes that read wrong. ;-)

Yes, Sr is lame.

But, the entire show was content free advertising. I FF'd pretty much the whole part in Alaska since it had no purpose. And then the bike was built in 2 minutes and sucked. What a waste of a show.


----------



## snowjay

Fixed!


----------



## mostman

Enough Sr. Just show Jr building out his business. I agree with nataylor - they are GIVING him work because the shop has nothing to do, otherwise.


----------



## Frylock

mostman said:


> Enough Sr. Just show Jr building out his business. I agree with nataylor - they are GIVING him work because the shop has nothing to do, otherwise.


To be fair, they likely did the same with Red Jacket for Paulie.


----------



## aRKade

Frylock said:


> To be fair, they likely did the same with Red Jacket for Paulie.


I don't think they built a bike for Red Jacket. Red Jacket built a custom shotgun for Mikey and I think they talked about possibly doing a bike in the future but no plans were finalized.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

Frylock said:


> To be fair, they likely did the same with Red Jacket for Paulie.


IIRC, Junior consulted with them about the design. I don't believe he actually built anything for them. They did build Mikey that shotgun that aRKade mentioned.

Actually it was probably more of a publicity thing for Sons of Guns / Red Jacket than it was for PJD.


----------



## Frylock

I just meant that I don't think Red Jacket just thought "Hey, I really need someone with good design skills. Let me call Paul Jr!"

That show was nothing more than an ad for two other Discovery tv shows.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

Agreed!


----------



## DLL66

The worst American Chopper episode.


----------



## BeanMeScot

I've only watched this off and on in the last few years. I just caught the first Trans Am Depot/CrankyApe episode. It's crazy to think that Sr thought he could FORCE Jr to sell him his 20% AND dictate the price. You gave/sold him the percentage. Once it's his, it's his.


----------



## Hansky

BeanMeScot said:


> I've only watched this off and on in the last few years. I just caught the first Trans Am Depot/CrankyApe episode. It's crazy to think that Sr thought he could FORCE Jr to sell him his 20% AND dictate the price. You gave/sold him the percentage. Once it's his, it's his.


To the contrary, buy-back provisions are very common in small companies. The situation between these two is a good example of why they are standard, and a very good idea for the company. For the same reasons, there will be restrictions on selling the stock to outsiders, whether it be outright prohibition or a right of first refusal for the company other other owners.

Like any other contract, however simple, it just has to be done correctly.


----------



## Frylock

Also, he didn't just pull a price out of thin air. He had the company valued. he offered Paulie the opportunity to do so.

This same thing happened with the sale of the Wizards to Ted Leonsis. He had right of first refusal to buy the team when Abe Pollin died. He had the team valued, and so did the Pollin estate. They then negotiated and came to an accepted value.


----------



## snowjay

Watching the new episode... They are doing a Caddy build off and Sr. is already spouting that Jr. must be afraid going up against him. 

Really STFU already Sr.


----------



## marksman

I am convinced Jr. is a genius in terms of his ability to visualize what he is doing...

I am convinced Sr. is a dumb arse he doesn't have any idea what he is doing.

I let it slip initially but when they came back to it at the end again, WHY IS OCC PUTTING NITROUS ON THEIR BIKE. That is the dumbest thing ever. It just goes to show you they have no idea what they are doing and no governor for taste or concept.

Yeah is it fun to talk about? Sure. Does someone with some brains need to say, that is cool, but it doesn't make sense on this bike. I don't care if they want to emphasize performance, what does nitrous have to do with it.


----------



## DanB

paraphrased quote of the day "We (OCC) build two bikes for every one they (PJD) build."

You'd think OCC would be building more than on a two to one ratio.


----------



## Malcontent

Sr. is rewriting OCC history yet again (big surprise). Now Jason Poole was the real designer at OCC and Jr. stole all the credit and ideas from him.

Sr. on occasion accurately describes Jason's position at OCC. Sr. often calls Jason a "Drawer". 

Pretty funny that in the same episode Sr. kicks Jason off the shop floor. Basically for trying to do stuff that he wasn't qualified to do on the bike. Engineering/fabrication stuff that Jim Quinn should have been doing.


----------



## snowjay

marksman said:


> I am convinced Jr. is a genius in terms of his ability to visualize what he is doing...
> 
> I am convinced Sr. is a dumb arse he doesn't have any idea what he is doing.


I agree about Jr. He was the driving force behind the original OCC. Sr. just hires the right people to make him look good.

What gets me is Sr. touting their superior fabrication skills. Yeah, most of their bike is JQ cutting out shapes (inputted from Jason's CAD drawings) and Rick welding them together like an industrial puzzle. That's not fabrication to me, thats manufacturing, they could box it up and sell it as a DIY kit. Then you go to Jr's shop and they are building the whole thing by hand as they go and integrating real tail lights into it as well. Tell me who has the better fabrication skills again? I think it's cool to watch Brendan and Vinnie put together Jr's concepts. Even though there is no drawings they don't seem to mind in that environment, there is no tension, no yelling and they all get along.


----------



## ThreeSoFar'sBro

And...from what I can see of the two teams' bikes, Jr's fits the theme much better and looks like the better bike.

Funny to hear Sr. say there are no CTS-V model cars available, then his team tells him Jr. has two of them!


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

ThreeSoFar'sBro said:


> And...from what I can see of the two teams' bikes, Jr's fits the theme much better and looks like the better bike.
> 
> Funny to hear Sr. say there are no CTS-V model cars available, then his team tells him Jr. has two of them!


Then the Tuetal facts during the break says that Sr bought one..... I hear that he has something like 20 cars in that big barn. I wonder is they came out of his pocket or the company. One of Jr's issue is that Sr was using company money to buy personal assets which was one reason the valuation was so low.

Jason the guiding force? Who are we kidding? Aside from other reasons, he wasn't there at the beginning. I grant that he can whip the graphics into shape, he certainly knows how to use photoshop (or whatever he uses, I don't recall seeing the control palette at all) but he hasn't got an ounce of imagination. JQ isn't an engineer anymore, he's the chief flowjet programmer. OCC thinks that technology alone will win the race, I certainly think having something worth building is kind of important.


----------



## Gerryex

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Jason the guiding force? Who are we kidding?





Malcontent said:


> Sr. is rewriting OCC history yet again (big surprise). Now Jason Poole was the real designer at OCC and Jr. stole all the credit and ideas from him.


Talk about revisionist history!!! When JR was still with OCC and a new project was started, he would sit down with Jason and tell him how he wanted to proceed. He would tell Jason what kind of frame to use, what kind of accessories to add, how he wanted the sheetmetal, etc. Then Jason would draw it up and JR would review it along the way. JR would make some suggestions and in some cases if Jason had something in a way the JR did not like then JR would simply tell him to take it out and re-do it the way JR wanted. That was the way it ALWAYS was!!!

Now SR says that Jason is a MUCH better designer than JR when in fact Jason is just a draftsman and not a very good designer.

And while I am so NOT a motorcycle person, I do think that JR's design is MUCH better than OCC's. Especially they way they took the car's tail light and the lines of the trunk and incorperated it into the cycle. OCC's design has some of that but not as much as JR's.

Gerry


----------



## Swirl_Junkie

I think the Jr Cadillac bike could be epic when done. So far, it look really amazing.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

I cannot believe that Sr. said Jr. took credit for Poole's designs. Did Poole design the FDNY bike? NYPD bike? The web bikes? Discovery Channel bike (that made them famous)? Senior has lost his mind. 

Another thing i noticed was that Sr referred to Jr as Paul Jr a lot. If not every time. Not Paulie, not son, or Jr. Just a real formal Paul Jr.

Anyone else notice how crappy Sr's grammar and spelling was in that email he sent to Jr? Wow. I hope he at least ran spell check first.


----------



## nataylor

Yeah, that scene was way out of sequence, too. Gus passed away in December. You can see in the email, Senior also mentions he's going to have dinner at Danny's house New Years Day. In an earlier episode this season, he announced to the crew that he had dinner at his son's house.

So the text from Junior expressing condolences about Gus and the email Senior sent were back from December.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Gerryex said:


> And while I am so NOT a motorcycle person, I do think that JR's design is MUCH better than OCC's. Especially they way they took the car's tail light and the lines of the trunk and incorperated it into the cycle. OCC's design has some of that but not as much as JR's.
> 
> Gerry


I prefer Jr's as well but I suppose it hinges on what you think their mandate was.

Were they supposed to build a "Cadillac" bike with cues from the car line or mimic, more directly, a Cadillac? I can see how Sr thinks he is doing the latter. Regardless, I think their "reimagining" of the CTS falls quite short. Aside from the headlight which reminds me of the mirrors on my CTS and the exhaust which does look similar to the 2010-11 CTS with the center exhaust, they don't really make me think of my car. The use of the taillights, and the gas tank on Jr's really picks up the styling cues from the current car line much better.

I'm not sure what the purpose of nitrous is. The CTS-V has styling cues to show that it is the High performance model. A hidden nitrous bottle does nothing to sell that message.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> I cannot believe that Sr. said Jr. took credit for Poole's designs. Did Poole design the FDNY bike? NYPD bike? The web bikes? Discovery Channel bike (that made them famous)? Senior has lost his mind.
> 
> Another thing i noticed was that Sr referred to Jr as Paul Jr a lot. If not every time. Not Paulie, not son, or Jr. Just a real formal Paul Jr.
> 
> Anyone else notice how crappy Sr's grammar and spelling was in that email he sent to Jr? Wow. I hope he at least ran spell check first.


I'd be embarrassed to look like that much of a moron on TV. That email was just pathetic. Grammatically, it was just awful. Sad that this man who runs an empire can barely express himself.


----------



## Frylock

I don't think Sr. sees himself as a moron, and I also don't think he really cares. After all, he is the one with the tv show and millions of dollars, so he obviously is not a moron. He just is not a technical person.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Frylock said:


> I don't think Sr. sees himself as a moron, and I also don't think he really cares. After all, he is the one with the tv show and millions of dollars, so he obviously is not a moron. He just is not a technical person.


I think you give him too much credit. He's just one of the many reality stars who lucked into a good deal and made the most of it. He's also doing his level best to chuck it all in the trash.


----------



## marksman

What also cracks me up is every time they show the outside of OCC you see the ginormous logo that Junior designed.


----------



## marksman

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Jason the guiding force? Who are we kidding? Aside from other reasons, he wasn't there at the beginning. I grant that he can whip the graphics into shape, he certainly knows how to use photoshop (or whatever he uses, I don't recall seeing the control palette at all) but he hasn't got an ounce of imagination. JQ isn't an engineer anymore, he's the chief flowjet programmer. OCC thinks that technology alone will win the race, I certainly think having something worth building is kind of important.


I did laugh when JQ compared Cadillac's design facilities as being similar to OCC.


----------



## Mr. Belboz

I don't think this is going to be the "build off" it is being made into. I suspect we will see Sr. and Jr. show their bikes to GM and then positive things will be said about both. Senior will insult Juniors design to the camera crew, and Junior will say that OCC's design is ok, but not as good as his.

I would really love for GM to have their management, or employees vote on their favorite so we have a clear winner, but I doubt that will happen.

I suppose the auction could be used as a determination of the winner based on which one fetches the highest price, but I guess we will have to wait and see.

I like Juniors design myself.


----------



## snowjay

Oh, I really hope Jr paints his bike in the white pearl. If you've ever seen that color up close it is by far one of the nicest colors you can have on a car, IMHO. It's so sharp and elegant. I bet Nubby could do something cool with the black flake maybe in a design or stripe to get the best of both worlds.

As an aside, when I bought my Tahoe they had one next to it painted in the Caddy white pearl. It was a special order by the dealer and was really sharp since you don't see it on that model every day. It was a fully loaded LTZ and had a price tag to match an Escalade, just a tad more than I wanted to spend that day.


----------



## windracer

I cringed when PJD started cutting up the Cadillac parts! 

So far, though, I think PJD's bike is going to win.


----------



## snowjay

So what did we all think?

I thought PJD's bike was great. Long, low and sleek. And I laughed out loud at Sr's face when Jr. pulled up and dropped it on the frame. 

I thought I would like Sr's bike more than I did, but I didn't like that chopped rear fender, it was like there was something missing.


----------



## innocentfreak

Definitely preferred Jr's bike. I would have done some type of material between the seat and the rear bumper though that folded so that whether the bike was raised or lowered it looked like a solid piece. I didn't care for the giant gap when he was riding.

I thought Sr's bike looked odd.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

snowjay said:


> So what did we all think?
> 
> I thought PJD's bike was great. Long, low and sleek. And I laughed out loud at Sr's face when Jr. pulled up and dropped it on the frame.
> 
> I thought I would like Sr's bike more than I did, but I didn't like that chopped rear fender, it was like there was something missing.


PJD's bike was way better but they erred in not painting it white. Sr's was a giant snooze. The back end did look like it was missing. Not sure where the damn gas tank was and the nitrous was just stupid.

I am not surprised that they had exactly two people endorse each bike. Very corporate.


----------



## snowjay

IJustLikeTivo said:


> PJD's bike was way better but they erred in not painting it white. Sr's was a giant snooze. The back end did look like it was missing. Not sure where the damn gas tank was and the nitrous was just stupid.
> 
> I am not surprised that they had exactly two people endorse each bike. Very corporate.


Yeah, I wish it was the pearl white as well, but that black diamond is pretty cool, it really doesn't show up well on camera.

The one kid at the end picked Jr's bike though.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

snowjay said:


> Yeah, I wish it was the pearl white as well, but that black diamond is pretty cool, it really doesn't show up well on camera.
> 
> The one kid at the end picked Jr's bike though.


But the other one looked nice too...... Kid has a future in politics.


----------



## tripmac

I can't believe Sr. was really "forced" to say anything nice about Jr's bike. And to say Jr's did not capture the Caddilac feel? Did he walk around the back? Or the side?

I also wish he would have painted it white, but using the black diamond did work.


----------



## Rainy Dave

The results of the poll on Discovery.com so far:

SENIOR 4.14% (4,237 votes)

JUNIOR 95.86% (98,023 votes)


----------



## nataylor

And Facebook "Likes" for Team Senior and Team Junior:


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

nataylor said:


> And Facebook "Likes" for Team Senior and Team Junior:


Seniors fans are like him, they can't find the internet with two hands and a roadmap.


----------



## tripmac

Wow the % is heading down from there this morning.


----------



## marksman

I really liked both bikes. I am a senior despiser, but I thought OCC did a good job on their bike. That being said the fact that Senior can only be motivated by the desire to beat his son to turn out a good product makes me think even less of him than I did before.

I also think the lowering of Jr.'s bike with no kick stand was a huge win over having nitrous on a bike that is based on visual appeal.

Both bikes are good, I like Jr.'s more though.

I also am a big fan of all the Nub subversive trash talk the last few weeks.

He clearly does not like Sr. and OCC.


----------



## windracer

I liked Jr's better as well. I probably would have looked really slick in the white, too (and differentiated it even more from Sr).


----------



## jeepair

I LOL at storm the so called photographer taking photos of the cars on the track through the chain linked fence. He should have moved down to another area where he could shoot over the fence or at least get close up so the lines wont be so visible. Good driving though he had the home field advantage.

Jr's bike was much better except It looked a little ackward with a HUGE front tire/rim and a smaller rear tire.

Too bad Mikey didn't get a lap around the course.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

Another vote for Jr's bike here. Sr's bike reminded me of a dirt bike, the way the rear end was just cut off.


----------



## snowjay

marksman said:


> I also am a big fan of all the Nub subversive trash talk the last few weeks.
> 
> He clearly does not like Sr. and OCC.


That's an understatement! He got pretty screwed by OCC with payments and deadlines etc... I have a friend at work that knows that whole group of people and it was not a good business relationship.

Nub clearly likes painting the bikes for Jr. and it seems to be a healthy relationship.


----------



## tripmac

I just wish he would have had one part that he could have painted white to show Jr.


----------



## Gerryex

There is no new episode next week, so was this the season finale, series finale or just taking a break as in the past?

Gerry

P. S. I'm not a motorcycle person, but I thought Jr's was WAY better. While I also am not a Cadillac fan, I think taking the lines from the rear of the car and emulating it on the cycle's rear fender was a very good idea.


----------



## ClutchBrake

Sr's bike was just really... odd looking. Jr's wasn't my favorite of his work but I like it better than Sr's.


----------



## marksman

By the way they threw up the stat of Jr and Vinnie working 16 hours a day 6 days a week for their build. I assume in that same time at the very BEST, SR. worked like 7-5 or more likely 7-4, 5 days a week. That means Jr. spent twice as much time working on his bike as Sr. did on his (not that Sr did any real work.)


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

Junior's bike is far and away better than OCC's. Way more attention to detail. Plus, OCC's bike looked like one of those OCC bicycles with the plastic parts. Plus, it looked way undersized with Sr sitting on it.

I also loved the expression on Sr's face when Jr dropped that bike and the crowd Ooo'ed and Ahh'ed!! That should have told Sr that he just got owned. Maybe that will shut him up for a while.

Somebody has to be screwing with the auction. The bids are:
SENIOR $52,500 JUNIOR *$10,000,000* yes, ten MILLION

The poll so far:
SENIOR 3.97% (8,586 votes) JUNIOR 96.03% (207,697 votes)


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

What's Sr's excuse going to be after he gets stomped in the voting?


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> Junior's bike is far and away better than OCC's. Way more attention to detail. Plus, OCC's bike looked like one of those OCC bicycles with the plastic parts. Plus, it looked way undersized with Sr sitting on it.
> 
> I also loved the expression on Sr's face when Jr dropped that bike and the crowd Ooo'ed and Ahh'ed!! That should have told Sr that he just got owned. Maybe that will shut him up for a while.
> 
> Somebody has to be screwing with the auction. The bids are:
> SENIOR $52,500 JUNIOR *$10,000,000* yes, ten MILLION
> 
> The poll so far:
> SENIOR 3.97% (8,586 votes) JUNIOR 96.03% (207,697 votes)


Jr's is now up to 100 Million and the bid for Sr's bike is now ZERO.


----------



## windracer

$100 mil? Is this just people on the internet messing around?


----------



## tripmac

I just found it and looked and I both were at $100 mil.


----------



## Frylock

The only element I really liked of Sr. was the headlight over Jr's. I also thought Jr's rear tire was too big, but I think it was sized that way to fit everything back there (the logo, license plate, and the lights).

I don't think Sr. is going to believe his bike "lost". I think he will just consider his better, and that's that.


----------



## jbernardis

Frylock said:


> I don't think Sr. is going to believe his bike "lost". I think he will just consider his better, and that's that.


That's exactly what Mikey said last episode - even if OCC lost, they would never concede defeat.


----------



## Frylock

I have to say, I am getting a bit tired of Mikey. He seems to be too caught up in everyone else's issues with his Dad than his own personal issues with him. I can see why Paulie and he don't speak. I can see why Vinnie isn't happy with him (though I think part of it is revisionist history on Vinnie's part). But Mikey has no reason not for them to get together.


----------



## robbhimself

i think sr was very abusive to mikey, he really beat him down (verbally).. that's why mikey won't speak with him


----------



## Test

OCC started cutting Mikey out of things. Most notably the episode when they went to the middle east. Sr was advised by his team that Mikey would be a liability, the funny thing is that is the first question that was asked by the customer.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Frylock said:


> I have to say, I am getting a bit tired of Mikey. He seems to be too caught up in everyone else's issues with his Dad than his own personal issues with him. I can see why Paulie and he don't speak. I can see why Vinnie isn't happy with him (though I think part of it is revisionist history on Vinnie's part). But Mikey has no reason not for them to get together.


I think Sr sees himself in Mikey and takes all his self loathing out on him. He was an alcoholic just like Mikey but now that he's been in recovery for so long, he no longer has any sympathy left for what Mikey is going through. Plus, he has the guilt of knowing that he probably led Mikey into it with his abusive actions. All those shows about Mikey not showing up were typical problems with alcoholics and instead of seeing that, he just made it worse. Really, just an awful parent.

I think he loves that Garage full of cars way more than he loves his children. He certainly loved Gus more than the kids.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Jr's is now up to 100 Million and the bid for Sr's bike is now ZERO.





windracer said:


> $100 mil? Is this just people on the internet messing around?





tripmac said:


> I just found it and looked and I both were at $100 mil.


It has to be some bunch of morons that think their being funny. But really all they're doing is screwing up an auction for a good charity.


----------



## nataylor

The bikes should be going for enough money that they should have used some kind of bid verification system.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

Just went to the auction site (www.discovery.com/auction) and the bids are

SENIOR $15,000
JUNIOR $100,000

The following message is also on the same page below the bids:



> A SPECIAL MESSAGE FROM CURE DUCHENNE: "I'm the President of Cure Duchenne, the charity featured in the show. The bidding mechanism has been reset and reflects stringently verified bids. The money raised by these bikes will fund research aimed at helping thousands of boys and young men affected by Duchenne, one of the top genetic killers of children worldwide. Thank you for this incredible support." - Debra Miller, Cure Duchenne President and Founder and mother of a Duchenne son.


----------



## DLL66

Hands down, PJD bike wins. OCC's bike was less than impressive to me.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Glad they finally repaired the auction. (Was going to say fixed but that seems inappropriate). Also not surprised at which one is winning. Sr's stuff all year has been just crap.


----------



## Rainy Dave

I would love to see what Rick could create if he was over at PJD. He appears to be an artist with metal, but unfortunately he has to create the crap that Jason "designs".


----------



## Combat Medic

Rainy Dave said:


> I would love to see what Rick could create if he was over at PJD. He appears to be an artist with metal, but unfortunately he has to create the crap that Jason "designs".


That would be interesting.


----------



## Frylock

Rainy Dave said:


> I would love to see what Rick could create if he was over at PJD. He appears to be an artist with metal, but unfortunately he has to create the crap that Jason "designs".


Would Rick really like working there though? I get the sense that Rick is the type that comes to work, gets the designs, knocks them out, and goes home at the end of the day. Paulie doesn't do designs, and works from his head. Good for some, but frustrating for others.


----------



## Dssturbo1

didn't like either bike much. 

wished Jr went with White instead of the black diamond. that black does not come off well on tv at all, it looked like a bad black metal flake paint job. And the extra small headlight and fugly 4 outlet pipe looked like crap too.

do hope they raise a buncha charity money .


----------



## bareyb

Finally got around to seeing it. No surprise that Junior came up with a nicer bike. I thought the OCC bike was pretty good for _them_. At least it had some fab on it. 

The design on the OCC bike bothers me a bit though. I think they should have picked a direction and gone with it. Jason would rather design bikes that are modern, more like what Paulie does. Senior likes the old school look. This bike feels like it was Jason's compromise to Sr. Kind of a Bobber hybrid. It ended up looking, as others have said, odd.

So now that Jr.'s bike has spanked OCC's I guess that will once and for all settle the dispute as to who is the "best designer".


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

bareyb said:


> So now that Jr.'s bike has spanked OCC's I guess that will once and for all settle the dispute as to who is the "best designer".


You'd think that, but I don't think Senior will admit it. I am looking forward to hearing his excuses.


----------



## bareyb

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> You'd think that, but I don't think Senior will admit it. I am looking forward to hearing his excuses.


Senior has a pretty short memory. I predict at some point during the next build Sr. will state emphatically that "PJD could never design a bike like this!"


----------



## RichardHead

Dssturbo1 said:


> didn't like either bike much.
> And the extra small headlight and fugly 4 outlet pipe looked like crap too.


I can't understand why Jr. designed a copy of the CTS-V exhaust outlets into the rear fender and then added that ridiculous four outlet pipe. I thought I understood his design process until this.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

bareyb said:


> Senior has a pretty short memory. I predict at some point during the next build Sr. will state emphatically that "PJD could never design a bike like this!"


:up::up:
I agree. But it could be that the show was recorded before the Cadillac episode aired and he got skunked in the online poll and auction. But still, it will be funny every time he says it from now on.


----------



## Frylock

RichardHead said:


> I can't understand why Jr. designed a copy of the CTS-V exhaust outlets into the rear fender and then added that ridiculous four outlet pipe. I thought I understood his design process until this.


That was the one part of the bike I didn't like from PJD. He emulated the hood and the rear, but where did the tailpipes come from? I wish he either wrapped them like Sr. did and had them coming out from under the rear just like the car did, completing the whole design idea.

Good point from above about how Sr. and Jason have different design ideas. I never really thought about that. What's sad is that OCC really does have some talented people and good machines. If they got Sr. out of the shop, and replaced Poole with someone who wasn't so nutty, then they could still crank out some great bikes. Though I don't expect that to happen.


----------



## jeepair

I actually liked the exhaust from PJD. It looks like when the bike was lowered to rest on the frame, it also rested on the box exhaust. Not sure if it needed the exhaust to be like that so the bike won't tip one way or the other.


----------



## dilbert27

American Chopper returns tonight with new episodes on Discovery Channel.


----------



## Gerryex

dilbert27 said:


> American Chopper returns tonight with new episodes on Discovery Channel.


WOW! Thanks for the heads-up! I love this show (but hate Sr!!).

Gerry


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

The resurrection of this thread made me curious as to how the auction ended.

Auction results:
Senior: $51,000
Junior: $113,000

Does this make Junior twice the designer that Jason Poole is? I'm looking forward to hearing Senior's spin on the results!


----------



## tripmac

As I stated earlier I typically skip most of the Sr parts of the episode. Last night I happened to land on the part with Rick talking about Jason's design. How it would be a great bike as long as your legs could reach around the pipes. I had to back up and watch some of that. The doubt on Rick's face was as if he wanted to say --- Are you kidding me?

I like Jr's plan. Just pay me this figure and the black widow bike and I'm done.


----------



## dilbert27

So Sr. Was planning to move OCC back to the original shop where OCC started from their current location that is being foreclosed on but a snow storm caused the roof to collapse on the original building which took that option off the table and they now have to find a different location and Sr. is just going to sell the original building after it is fixed.

That would have really been something if this had happened and OCC became basically next door neighbors to Jr. and PJD.


----------



## bareyb

dilbert27 said:


> So Sr. Was planning to move OCC back to the original shop where OCC started from their current location that is being foreclosed on but a snow storm caused the roof to collapse on the original building which took that option off the table and they now have to find a different location and Sr. is just going to sell the original building after it is fixed.
> 
> That would have really been something if this had happened and OCC became basically next door neighbors to Jr. and PJD.


Really makes me question Senior's Karma. What else is going to go wrong for that guy? 
I did like the look of the HRC bike that OCC built though. Not a very functional design, but the guitar was pretty cool.


----------



## Tobashadow

dilbert27 said:


> So Sr. Was planning to move OCC back to the original shop where OCC started from their current location that is being foreclosed on but a snow storm caused the roof to collapse on the original building which took that option off the table and they now have to find a different location and Sr. is just going to sell the original building after it is fixed.
> 
> That would have really been something if this had happened and OCC became basically next door neighbors to Jr. and PJD.


I couldn't decide if it was a good thing we don't have to move here now deal, or was it a we don't have time to wait on repairs deal.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

dilbert27 said:


> That would have really been something if this had happened and OCC became basically next door neighbors to Jr. and PJD.


That would be interesting. I would bet that Junior would just carry on and ignore them. Senior would be the one to instigate and agitate the relationship. UNLESS, Jr., Vinny and Mikey started a "Free Rick" campaign by hanging banners on the border of the 2 properties. I guess it could still actually happen. Senior might still have to move back into that building. I'll bet he's just a little bit sorry that he trashed the building so much when they left.



bareyb said:


> Really makes me question Senior's Karma. What else is going to go wrong for that guy?
> I did like the look of the HRC bike that OCC built though. Not a very functional design, but the guitar was pretty cool.


The guitar and the logo on the rear fender were really cool. Otherwise it was pretty much the same bike they've been building for years since Junior left.



Tobashadow said:


> I couldn't decide if it was a good thing we don't have to move here now deal, or was it a we don't have time to wait on repairs deal.


I'm guessing it's a time crunch thing. He's probably going to be evicted from his OCC Palace soon.


----------



## jeepair

They said it was the iron working shop which I don't believe they have ever made choppers there. IIRC the first building the choppers were made in was near that but that is tiny.

LOL at Rick and Mike talking about the designs Jason throws out there. Too true. The exaust was pretty nice though. Hmm, maybe that is why Paul JR's method of design while you build is better than just throwing up an image?

Guess the OCC Hard Rock bike is just for show because, it would be an uncomfortable seat for a ride and while riding you would hide the best feature. I was thinking they should have made the front forks on each side guitars or something like that. The black color was nice with the rear lightup logo.

FIST bike. I'm not sure I would want the fingerprint reader anywhere near where gas could leak onto it. I would have placed it up on the tree? or handlebars somewhere.


----------



## dilbert27

jeepair said:


> They said it was the iron working shop which I don't believe they have ever made choppers there. IIRC the first building the choppers were made in was near that but that is tiny.


No what Sr. said was that iron works had been using that shop until recently since it was empty and they needed the space and that they had just recently left which was a good thing with the roof collapse for no one was in the building at the time that could have been hurt.


----------



## windracer

jeepair said:


> FIST bike. I'm not sure I would want the fingerprint reader anywhere near where gas could leak onto it. I would have placed it up on the tree? or handlebars somewhere.


I liked the part at the beginning when PJD was meeting with the FIST guys. Paul Jr. says he wants to incorporate the technology into the bike to make it start and looks at Vinnie and says "that shouldn't be too hard, right?" and Vinnie just sits there like "Uhhhh ..." 

It still seems like Paul Jr's "the design is in my head now build it" methodology is starting to grate on his employees (the sheet metal guy especially).

Looking forward to Paul Jr picking up the Black Widow bike.


----------



## nataylor

jeepair said:


> LOL at Rick and Mike talking about the designs Jason throws out there. Too true. The exaust was pretty nice though. Hmm, maybe that is why Paul JR's method of design while you build is better than just throwing up an image?


I'm sure the reason OCC hired Poole and his design method took over was because their corporate clients wanted to approve the designs. When they started working for really big companies who were shelling out a lot of money, I'm sure they had tons of corporate monkeys from each client who wanted to have their say about the builds. Junior's method meant there was really nothing to show these people. I don't think Junior can really work under that kind of structure. He's better off with these smaller clients who trust him to come up with something good without having to see the whole thing up front.


----------



## ncsercs

windracer said:


> Looking forward to Paul Jr picking up the Black Widow bike.


Based on what I saw from next week's preview, it won't end well.


----------



## billboard_NE

The Iron shop was run out of the back of the bike shop originally. The original OCC was in the front knd of like a walk in basement of the Iron shop. There was an episode where they went to the iron shop to bend flat iron for an old school sissy bar.


----------



## jeepair

They've been in too many buildings and I guess I'm confused. Besides, don't they normally trash the buildings when they move out? I recall Paul Sr using the H2? and driving through walls. 

I think the "Original OCC" was in someones basement.


----------



## snowjay

The original OCC building was behind/attached to the Ironworks shop. A in this photo is the ironworks main building, OCC was the building attacked perpendicular to it on the bottom. You can also see where PJD is in relation.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=orang...134224&spn=0.003108,0.005305&t=h&z=18&vpsrc=6

In this photo, the original shop is in the back with the door open.


----------



## snowjay

jeepair said:


> I think the "Original OCC" was in someones basement.


Technically, yes. It was the basement of Sr's house which eventually became Mikey's house that he sold a year or so ago.


----------



## windracer

windracer said:


> Looking forward to Paul Jr picking up the Black Widow bike.





ncsercs said:


> Based on what I saw from next week's preview, it won't end well.


Well, at least it ended with the Black Widow next to the Anti-Venom in the PJD shop.  It was cool seeing the flashbacks to the first episode too.

Finally some creative design on the OCC side! Using the battery meter as the starter for the PowerProbe bike was pretty slick.


----------



## snowjay

windracer said:


> Finally some creative design on the OCC side! Using the battery meter as the starter for the PowerProbe bike was pretty slick.


But that wasn't even part of the "design" that was something Mike decided to do.

IMHO, the overall bike was too cartoonish looking.

I thought the FIST bike was cool, especially Nubs paint job.


----------



## jeepair

Need more of Nub painting the PJD bikes.


----------



## jeepair

Nice to see Nub was part of the team Jr took with him to Epic Games. It looked like a pretty cool facility and they sure gave Jr all of the inspiration he needed. When they talked about a Trike, I was like . But it definately grew on me and it was looking pretty cool until they put those push pull handlebars on it. It didn't appear to have much of a turning radius. Hope after paint and powdercoat it will look better (to me) and it probably will. Hope they don't cut out those gears they were using, those looked cool and should be on the trike somewhere. 

On to the Bird guys. Talk about asses. Uh, we stood in a hallway for 15 minutes at PJD and we were ignored. Did you make an appointment or just showup expecting the red carpet? 

OCC - Jason you couldn't design a stick. All of your choppers look the same to me and no innovation at all. Same old same old.

Interesting to see that Rick is getting fed up at how Sr talks to him. I haven't noticed it but the camera can only get so much. Too bad Rick didn't swing by and pickup a few PJD shirts. Maybe he did and we will see him wearing some in a later episode. LOL.

Sr is going to build another building right on that same lot?


----------



## SeanC

jeepair said:


> On to the Bird guys. Talk about asses. Uh, we stood in a hallway for 15 minutes at PJD and we were ignored. Did you make an appointment or just showup expecting the red carpet?


Sometimes I feel like we give JR too much slack, but this was definitely a wtf moment for me. Is this the first time those guys have ever been on AC? Cuz if they had a meeting with PJD why didn't we see that on the show? A big opportunity walks in the door and walks back out 15 minutes later? I would think that would have made the cut.



> Interesting to see that Rick is getting fed up at how Sr talks to him. I haven't noticed it but the camera can only get so much. Too bad Rick didn't swing by and pickup a few PJD shirts. Maybe he did and we will see him wearing some in a later episode. LOL.


Yep, it's a damn shame he didn't actually come over to PJD's shop, would have been a nice to see.



> Sr is going to build another building right on that same lot?


Can anyone explain what the hell is going on with the building?

Am I correct in summing it up like this:

OCC cannot afford the mortgage on the new building, so instead, they are going to build a whole new building right in front of the current building!

What. The. F***.

That just seems kinda crazy to me.


----------



## jeepair

What I think though it might be wrong. The mortgage is so high since SR built the building when the economy was going strong. He has tried to negotiate saying we can't afford it now and the building isn't worth what it once was. The bank doesn't want to renegotiate so SR is going to build another although slightly smaller building on his property. Seems to me the Bank would try anything it could to have a tenant stay in the building they own. Either that or they feel they can have someone else move in since it is a new building.

Hey, maybe PJD can move in along with Nub Graphics and other shops. LOL.


----------



## ncsercs

jeepair said:


> Hey, maybe PJD can move in along with Nub Graphics and other shops. LOL.


Maybe he could also Sr. a job sweeping floors.


----------



## DanB

I never did understand who/how these custom bikes are paid for. Except for the publicity this "feather free zone" business is getting from being on the show I dont see how a chopper helps with their potential customer base.

Interesting the Sr. owns a plot of land right alongside the OCC building. I wonder why he bought that. Anyhow, from what I can gather, I dont think the new proposed building will be just "slightly" smaller. I think the blurb on the show was the HQ was 90k sqft.

Not sure if I'm a fan of the steering for the trike. The cable system is cool but not sure about the push/pull implementation. 

Too bad it looks like Jr is dropping the steering gear concept. They should make some big aluminum gears, driven electrically, inserted horizontally in that big tank somehow just for show. I'd think they could get a delivery date delay if they showed the concept to the customer.


----------



## dilbert27

Finished Gear of War 3 Chopper at Comic-Con 2011

*Warning: Don't Click the Link Below if you don't want to see the finished chopper before it airs on the show!*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeSNVxJKJ2g


----------



## snowjay

jeepair said:


> Nice to see Nub was part of the team Jr took with him to Epic Games. It looked like a pretty cool facility and they sure gave Jr all of the inspiration he needed. When they talked about a Trike, I was like . But it definately grew on me and it was looking pretty cool until they put those push pull handlebars on it. It didn't appear to have much of a turning radius. Hope after paint and powdercoat it will look better (to me) and it probably will. Hope they don't cut out those gears they were using, those looked cool and should be on the trike somewhere.
> 
> On to the Bird guys. Talk about asses. Uh, we stood in a hallway for 15 minutes at PJD and we were ignored. Did you make an appointment or just showup expecting the red carpet?
> 
> OCC - Jason you couldn't design a stick. All of your choppers look the same to me and no innovation at all. Same old same old.
> 
> Interesting to see that Rick is getting fed up at how Sr talks to him. I haven't noticed it but the camera can only get so much. Too bad Rick didn't swing by and pickup a few PJD shirts. Maybe he did and we will see him wearing some in a later episode. LOL.
> 
> Sr is going to build another building right on that same lot?


I actually thought the OCC bike looked good last night for a change. It was really mostly the tank that was different, the rest of the bike didn't have any great design things that made you go wow but overall it looked good. At least it wasn't plastered with the company logo every 6 inches like they normally do.


----------



## snowjay

SeanC said:


> OCC cannot afford the mortgage on the new building, so instead, they are going to build a whole new building right in front of the current building!
> 
> What. The. F***.
> 
> That just seems kinda crazy to me.


Yeah, that is messed up. And he just fixed the roof on the other building he owns - that's paid for AFAIK. Not sure why moving there is off the table now.


----------



## jeepair

Moving equipment is expensive and I wonder if they have maintenance contracts for their large equipment like the flojets? Sometimes to move that sort of equipment you have to have it recertified so the maintenance contracts can continue. Maybe moving the small items a short distance would save some money? Although I can't see it saving as much as building a new facility. Crazy.

I also don't see how they can support a large shop for selling shirts and such. I'd take all of that online unless it really does make a profit.


----------



## bareyb

snowjay said:


> I actually thought the OCC bike looked good last night for a change. It was really mostly the tank that was different, the rest of the bike didn't have any great design things that made you go wow but overall it looked good. At least it wasn't plastered with the company logo every 6 inches like they normally do.


I liked it well enough myself. Nothing earth shattering or innovative, but IMO a more sophisticated look than OCC normally comes up with. I've actually liked a couple of the bikes they've done this season.

One thing that stood out for me in this episode... wtf was the deal with Rick and Senior? All Senior said was they look "Faddish". Like a "Fad". I'm pretty sure the little bald guy almost caused Rick to quit by telling him that "Senior said he looked ***-gish". If you look at his lips that's what he said. Plus they bleeped it. 

Talk about poor communication... I have to say, I'm surprised Rick has stayed around as long as he has. Being on TV is probably putting some cash in his pocket so that might be part of it. I can't imagine Senior is paying him top dollar and from what I understand Rick commutes two hours each way every single day... My guess is he quits once the show goes off the air.

As for the new building? I think Senior is hoping the bank will see that he's moving on and perhaps make him a better deal on his Mortgage. If not, who knows? If I were Senior, I'd take my cash, retire, and start enjoying my kids and grand kids.


----------



## windracer

SeanC said:


> Sometimes I feel like we give JR too much slack, but this was definitely a wtf moment for me. Is this the first time those guys have ever been on AC? Cuz if they had a meeting with PJD why didn't we see that on the show? A big opportunity walks in the door and walks back out 15 minutes later? I would think that would have made the cut.


Yeah, I was wondering why we didn't see the PJD side of that "meeting" as well.



bareyb said:


> If I were Senior, I'd take my cash, retire, and start enjoying my kids and grand kids.


The kids he's on speaking terms with, anyway.


----------



## nataylor

We never see the real negotiations. Sounds like Junior has more than enough work to keep busy, and these guys didn't like that PJD wasn't rushing to do a bike for them and give them a Friends of Vinnie discount to boot. Big surprise that Junior would want to do a bike for one of the biggest video games of the year instead of some crappy franchise run by apparent ******bags.


----------



## bareyb

nataylor said:


> We never see the real negotiations. Sounds like Junior has more than enough work to keep busy, and these guys didn't like that PJD wasn't rushing to do a bike for them and give them a Friends of Vinnie discount to boot. Big surprise that Junior would want to do a bike for one of the biggest video games of the year instead of some crappy franchise run by apparent ******bags.


I think you nailed it. They picked the other build over them and the guy got his feelings hurt. Sounded a lot like sour grapes to me too.


----------



## bareyb

windracer said:


> The kids he's on speaking terms with, anyway.


Well that's my point. I think if he retired he'd be far more likely to repair his relationships. I don't think being on TV is helping much with that either. Then again, I was talking about what _I'd _do. Senior would probably go nuts if he didn't have somewhere to be everyday.He seems almost excited about building the new shop. That dude's miles from retirement. It's gonna take a health issue to slow him down.


----------



## ncsercs

bareyb said:


> Senior would probably go nuts if he didn't have someone to ***** at everyday.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

I think this episode shows the true differences between OCC and PJD. OCC has basically a stock bike they use for every build. They get that into a roller and then fabricate the rest of the parts. Pretty straightforward. Rick has commented more than once this season about the bikes being simple and Sr. mentioned changing up parts finally because their designs are getting stale. Jr OTOH, goes completely outside the box. A beefy trike with a steering system (both the gears and cables) I've never seen before.


----------



## dilbert27

It appears that Sr. is wanting the Town of Newburg to provide tax breaks on the construction of OCC's new building which looks from a news article to be a three-story, 25,000-square-foot building which will include manufacturing and fabrication space, retail space, a 20-seat café, offices and warehouse space.

Supposedly OCC received similar Tax breaks when they built the current 94,000-square-foot building and are having the building planners try and hide the connection of the construction of this new building to OCC to get the same Tax breaks this time also and the listed owner of the new building is G&M Orange LLC. but when the city did some digging found the owner of G&M Orange LLC. is Paul Teutul Sr., owner of Orange County Choppers.

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110318/BIZ/103180372

Found this kind of funny from the article when the planner was questioned about the connection of G&M Orange LLC. and OCC:



> Daly attempted to conceal the connection between the new project and the Choppers.
> 
> "G&M Orange is not Orange County Choppers," he insisted.
> 
> "What is the product the company will produce?" board member John Steinberg asked.
> 
> "Fabrication of motorcycles," Daly replied.
> 
> Steinberg refined his question.
> 
> "Is this going to compete with the existing facility?"
> 
> Daly said no, and ultimately acknowledged Teutul was the principal of G&M Orange.


----------



## Frylock

WhiskeyTango said:


> I think this episode shows the true differences between OCC and PJD. OCC has basically a stock bike they use for every build. They get that into a roller and then fabricate the rest of the parts. Pretty straightforward. Rick has commented more than once this season about the bikes being simple and Sr. mentioned changing up parts finally because their designs are getting stale. Jr OTOH, goes completely outside the box. A beefy trike with a steering system (both the gears and cables) I've never seen before.


Jr is doing a nice job with his designs, but how long will Vinnie last? I thought he got tired of the long hours and wanted to spend more time with his family. Doesn't seem like he would get to do that working for a startup.


----------



## DanB

Frylock said:


> Jr is doing a nice job with his designs, but how long will Vinnie last? I thought he got tired of the long hours and wanted to spend more time with his family. Doesn't seem like he would get to do that working for a startup.


I hear ya, but sometimes folks like to be really involved with things and can put up with long hours if they feel appreciated and a key part of something they like, and yet not have to be the captain. Maybe Vinnie is leaning that way now. Dont know what the status is with VForce.

If they bring Rick in I hope they dont dump on the guy doing their sheetmetal now.


----------



## snowjay

Vinnie is technically only a subcontractor. He is still running V-Force with Cody and business is doing well. They are a full service shop, not just a custom place. His deal is that he gets to wear V-Force stuff on AC to promote his own shop.


----------



## bareyb

DanB said:


> I hear ya, but sometimes folks like to be really involved with things and can put up with long hours if they feel appreciated and a key part of something they like, and yet not have to be the captain. Maybe Vinnie is leaning that way now. Dont know what the status is with VForce.
> 
> If they bring Rick in I hope they dont dump on the guy doing their sheetmetal now.


In the last episode Rick said he'd like to work on some of the other aspects of the builds and not just the sheet metal, so it could feasibly work out to keep them both. Especially if business picks up.

I think Jr. should get someone to do drawings of the bikes for the clients. It sounds to me like that may have been the bulk of the problem with the "Feather Free" people. He could caveat it by saying that it won't be _exactly_ like that but it would at least give them a general idea. I can't see them finding that many clients willing to just turn the whole decision making process over to PJD.


----------



## aRKade

bareyb said:


> One thing that stood out for me in this episode... wtf was the deal with Rick and Senior? All Senior said was they look "Faddish". Like a "Fad". I'm pretty sure the little bald guy almost caused Rick to quit by telling him that "Senior said he looked ***-gish". If you look at his lips that's what he said. Plus they bleeped it.
> 
> Talk about poor communication... I have to say, I'm surprised Rick has stayed around as long as he has. Being on TV is probably putting some cash in his pocket so that might be part of it. I can't imagine Senior is paying him top dollar and from what I understand Rick commutes two hours each way every single day... My guess is he quits once the show goes off the air.


I think the whole thing with Rick is just the producers trying to draw viewers in and make them think Rick is leaving OCC for PJD. In this episode the promos made it sound like Sr. insulted Rick causing him to call PJD and say he wants to leave OCC and come over there. In reality Sr. made an attempt at a joke, Rick didn't get the joke because it wasn't very good and though a good counter joke would be to wear a PJD shirt one day at OCC. Not even close to what the promos suggested.

IMHO I don't think Rick has any plans to leave OCC. I think he enjoys his job and the people he works with. He comes in to work, is given plans for exactly what he has to do, puts in his eight hours and goes home. At PJD he may have to sit around waiting for Paul to show up, wait for him to come up with his idea for the build, read his mind and try to interpret what the idea is, build what he thinks Paul wants, revise if it isn't right or Paul gets "inspired" and decides to go off in another direction, be made to work super late to complete the project, etc. (BTW, that way my attempt to overamplify like the producers seem to be trying to do)

I may be wrong since the promos for next weeks episode seem to hint at PJD trying to get Rick to join them but again I think the promos are being intentionally misleading.


----------



## Frylock

bareyb said:


> In the last episode Rick said he'd like to work on some of the other aspects of the builds and not just the sheet metal, so it could feasibly work out to keep them both. Especially if business picks up.
> 
> I think Jr. should get someone to do drawings of the bikes for the clients. It sounds to me like that may have been the bulk of the problem with the "Feather Free" people. He could caveat it by saying that it won't be _exactly_ like that but it would at least give them a general idea. I can't see them finding that many clients willing to just turn the whole decision making process over to PJD.


But that's what OCC did when they brought in Poole. He was supposed to do the drawings, and let Paulie focus on building. They seemed to work together for a while, but I think Paulie doesn't like that much structure, and feels that the drawing itself was limiting him. It's the problem they have. Sr. is too structured, and Paulie isn't structured enough. Without the tv show, I think both shops don't make it separately.


----------



## DanB

I'd probably have to agree about Rick staying at OCC, simply because there's no word of any change on the web


----------



## Mr. Belboz

I agree the Rick thing is just to lead the viewers on. In the promo they do a partial teaser with Jr saying something like "Rick is thinking of coming over", when it was in reference to him coming over to get t-shirts and see the guys.

I thought the whole Sr. and Rick issue was totally faked. Rick was smiling so much during all of that. It just looked staged.

Also (and will spoiler this) if you go to the aftershow interview thing ( www.discovery.com/chopperaftershow) in one of the PJD after show interviews for the last episode they mention....



Spoiler



Rick has been to Jr's shop on numerous occasions. They just never air it. If that is because of Sr not wanting that aired, or the network wanting to add some drama, who knows. But regardless Rick has been to Jr's shop


----------



## jeepair

I took it to mean that Rick just wanted to stop by and say hello. Not quit OCC and work for PJD. I'm not sure that would be a good move yet....


----------



## bareyb

I didn't think the "Faddish" thing was staged at all. Rick was genuinely pissed. When Rick is pissed he smiles a lot. That's just how he rolls.

I honestly don't think Rick would actually leave OCC for PJD. It's still two hours away from home. I actually don't think he will stay at _either_ place for much longer. I predict within a year after the show _really_ goes off the air, that Rick will quit OCC and get a job closer to home.


----------



## dilbert27

I have read comments on other sites can't find them right now but they said that Rick has quit OCC but he did not go to work for PJD he started his own company Rick Petko Design where he does metal work and design like he has been doing for OCC and supposdly from what I read OCC still has him do work for them he is just not an employee of OCC now he is sorta like Nub and I guess Brendon is with PJD they just tell him what they want and he builds it for them and then bills them for what they receive and I guess this would leave him open to be able to do work for PJD now also since he is just a contractor and works for who ever pays him.


----------



## bareyb

Ah. Well there you go. I was right. Sort of...


----------



## Hansky

dilbert27 said:


> I have read comments on other sites can't find them right now but they said that Rick has quit OCC but he did not go to work for PJD he started his own company Rick Petko Design where he does metal work and design like he has been doing for OCC and supposdly from what I read OCC still has him do work for them he is just not an employee of OCC now he is sorta like Nub and I guess Brendon is with PJD they just tell him what they want and he builds it for them and then bills them for what they receive and I guess this would leave him open to be able to do work for PJD now also since he is just a contractor and works for who ever pays him.


That is one nice run-on (and on and on and on) sentence.


----------



## dilbert27

Hansky said:


> That is one nice run-on (and on and on and on) sentence.


Sorry about that posted from my phone and did not notice I needed to break it all up.


----------



## DanB

who knows.

Still listed as an employee at OCC:

http://www.orangecountychoppers.com/team

and he still lists OCC on MySpace:

http://www.myspace.com/rickpetko

I believe "Rick Petko Design" was started in 2010.


----------



## snowjay

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rick-Petko-RPD-Co/213370915350678?sk=info

3/1/10 it was started according to this:
http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6121902826/m/82519116401


----------



## Frylock

As much as Sr. is an ass, you do have to admit that a lot of his employees have been there for some time. Jim Quinn. Rick Petco. Christian. Mike Amarotti. etc... People are clearly loyal to working there to some extent. I am sure he is a pain to work with, but it seems that if you know how to avoid getting into it with him, he lets you do your thing.


----------



## DanB

Frylock said:


> As much as Sr. is an ass, you do have to admit that a lot of his employees have been there for some time. Jim Quinn. Rick Petco. Christian. Mike Amarotti. etc... People are clearly loyal to working there to some extent. I am sure he is a pain to work with, but it seems that if you know how to avoid getting into it with him, he lets you do your thing.


I'm not sure. Those guys seem to be more of what I'd classify as followers than leaders. Employees that dont challenge the status quo or try to add their ideas often last a long time at a company, even if they dont really contribute anything much.


----------



## Frylock

DanB said:


> I'm not sure. Those guys seem to be more of what I'd classify as followers than leaders. Employees that dont challenge the status quo or try to add their ideas often last a long time at a company, even if they dont really contribute anything much.


I think that's what Sr. wants though. He wants to be the leader, and wants people to do as he says. They want to come in, work their shift, and go home. So in that regard, he's got what he seems to want.


----------



## snowjay

A friend just drove by the OCC building and said there is no new building being erected as of yet.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

snowjay said:


> A friend just drove by the OCC building and said there is no new building being erected as of yet.


There's bound to be plenty of back and forth with both the bank and the town before a new building gets approved, let alone built.


----------



## snowjay

WhiskeyTango said:


> There's bound to be plenty of back and forth with both the bank and the town before a new building gets approved, let alone built.


You got to remember these shows are at least 6 months in production, and often times clips are out of sequence. The Black Widow disappeared from OCC before Easter this year, that was just shown 2 weeks ago. They were foreclosed upon last November, plans for the new building were submitted in March. They were planning on having the new building up by the end of the year.


----------



## SeanC

snowjay said:


> They were planning on having the new building up by the end of the year.


And if there doesn't appear to be any work started now, is it even feasible that they would have a building up before years end?

I don't know anything about construction, but my gut says no way.


----------



## snowjay

SeanC said:


> And if there doesn't appear to be any work started now, is it even feasible that they would have a building up before years end?
> 
> I don't know anything about construction, but my gut says no way.


It seems pretty improbable.


----------



## dilbert27

Maybe when OCC filed to start construction on a new building the bank of the current building realized that they were serious about leaving and letting the bank have the shop and that they were not just playing hardball.

And instead of the bank being stuck with a building that is specialized toward one thing as has been said previously here they finally decided to work with OCC and they came to an agreement that has allowed OCC to stay where they are at.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

Or.. maybe Senior finally decided that moving back into the old OCC and Orange County Ironworks building was the smartest thing to do.


----------



## bareyb

I always suspected that was a ploy on Senior's part. I don't think they ever _really_ intended to build there. If they did, it would likely make sale of the original OCC white elephant that much harder. I'm guessing they'll either work it out with the bank or move back to the old building.


----------



## snowjay

Well the question was answered tonight, they settled with the bank.


----------



## marksman

Yeah I figured the bank would give. That OCC World Headquarters building does not scream "easily repurposed", so financially, their best bet was probably to try and work it out with OCC. If they sold the building and property, they would get so little for the building itself because I just doubt many businesses could use that building without having to do extensive modifications to it.

Personally I do not even know why OCC is on the show any longer. OCC is essentially an over-priced bike assembly business with over-priced custom parts. I suspect you could leaf through catalogs and get a few local people anywhere in the US to end up putting together bikes that would be almost as good as the bikes OCC turn out.

PJD is actually an artistic endeavor. That is why the people that go to him do so knowing they have to let him work. I think that was one of the reasons why OCC got so flat even when Paulie was still there. Everything was so corporate at that point and every build was drawn up and approved and re-approved, it just never jibed with how Junior works or designs. So even when Paulie was there you still basically ended up with Jason Pohl crap designs on bikes.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of people/businesses that can do what OCC does now, but there are only a handful of people/buisinesses that can do what PJD does.

I realize they want to keep the OCC part for the family drama and all that, but I am always interested in what Paulie and Vinnie and the rest are doing when building and I give two flips about OCC because they never actually do anything.

I wish Rick would go to PJD, but he is loyal to a fault. I have been the same way all my life so I understand his thought process. It is just too bad because he could really be extending himself more at PJD, especially with the increased work load.


----------



## Frylock

The problem for Jr. is that there are only so many customers who are willing to give him free reign like that. If he's smart, he stays small, and goes after just those customers. They let him do what he wants, and he doesn't get too big. When they got so big, they had to get thing approved and all, and that was their downfall. Success kills the Jr. design process ultimately.

And I am really getting tired of Mikey. I think Paulie has a legitimate beef with his father. But Mikey has no leg to stand on here.


----------



## DanB

In a conversation Sr was having with someone there at OCC, he mentioned that now that they're keeping the building they can have investors come by and also open a restaurant (Orange County Cuisine?).

OCC -- investors? Really? I hope they havent been watching the show.


----------



## jeepair

Gears of war 3 trike. Nubs nailed the paint job like he always does. It was nice for JR to say he'll have to bring Nubbie along on all of the R&D missions as it is beneficial to the outcome. 

I like the trike but I thought the seating position looked uncomfortable and it appears you are sitting strait up and it just looked weird. Not much of a turning radius either. 
Wish they built it a bit longer and placed a seat facing backwards sort of back to back to add in a gun turret between the 2 rear tires. A rear gunner. 

Overall it is pretty damn nice and even though I've never played that video game series, I can see it in their next version of the game. 

100 hour work weeks. wow. If they (PJD) does get more people it could help out or it could also have more people working in a small area on one bike and that could slow things down.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

I agree with the seating position. It would have probably looked better if the driver leaned forward more. Probably less comfortable, but a better look.

Regarding the GoW3 trike, I'm going to steal a phrase that Sr. loves to use... "There's no way that Paul Jr. Designs OCC could ever design a bike like this".


----------



## ClutchBrake

I quit watching this show YEARS ago because it was the same formula. Sr and Jr argue over Jr's work ethic and the bike always comes together like a miracle at the last moment. That being said, I love this thread. It makes no sense to me but I love keeping up with the show through it.


----------



## Frylock

DanB said:


> In a conversation Sr was having with someone there at OCC, he mentioned that now that they're keeping the building they can have investors come by and also open a restaurant (Orange County Cuisine?).


If you find them on google maps, it shows the restaurant in their location. Here is more info on it.

Edit: Well, that was from 2010. Not sure what the timeline on it is/was.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

Didn't Sr have some big dreams of starting a chain of OCC restaurants Hard Rock Cafe style? I thought there was an episode or two showing one of the restaurants? It wasn't too long after the Jr/Sr break up.


----------



## Rainy Dave

Is this what you're thinking of?
http://www.backfirebarbeque.com/the_story.html


----------



## bareyb

Rainy Dave said:


> Is this what you're thinking of?
> http://www.backfirebarbeque.com/the_story.html


I remember that. Back in the days where everything OCC touched turned to gold. Truly shocking how fast things can go downhill...


----------



## Rainy Dave

bareyb said:


> I remember that. Back in the days where everything OCC touched turned to gold. Truly shocking how fast things can go downhill...


And Sr was attending the grand opening while Jr was attending a family dinner where I believe he announced his engagement.

Seemed to show their priorities pretty well.


----------



## bareyb

Rainy Dave said:


> And Sr was attending the grand opening while Jr was attending a family dinner where I believe he announced his engagement.
> 
> Seemed to show their priorities pretty well.


Yep. Business before family. Kind of sums of the whole problem right there doesn't it?


----------



## Rainy Dave

bareyb said:


> Yep. Business before family. Kind of sums of the whole problem right there doesn't it?


That and the constant need for Sr to throw barbs at Jr. It gets rather old.


----------



## bareyb

Rainy Dave said:


> That and the constant need for Sr to throw barbs at Jr. It gets rather old.


I've never understood the need some Fathers have for competing with their Sons. My Dad was the exact same way. Now that I'm a Father myself it makes even less sense.


----------



## snowjay

So Sr apparently isn't meeting with his own clients any more. Guess they are going to do a reverse trike at the clients request.


----------



## bareyb

snowjay said:


> So Sr apparently isn't meeting with his own clients any more. Guess they are going to do a reverse trike at the clients request.


Did you guys happen to catch Senior's new hairline? Maybe he was off having the last of his hair transplants.


----------



## snowjay

bareyb said:


> Did you guys happen to catch Senior's new hairline? Maybe he was off having the last of his hair transplants.


No I missed that.


----------



## bareyb

snowjay said:


> No I missed that.


In a recent episode he agreed to get some Hair Transplants and it looks like it's happened to me. He also seems to have dyed his hair a little less gray.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

I remember OCC doing a bike for a hair transplant company. I told my wife that I was pretty sure there was a barter going on with that build. I didn't notice any change in Sr.'s hair, but I wasn't looking for it either. I will be next week.


----------



## windracer

The Guide data on my TiVo showed this latest episode (Senior Reaches Out) as 301. I deleted the older episodes so I can't confirm what the previous ones were. That seems a little odd.

There was one shot in the PJD shop where some bikes were covered with tarps. I wonder which those were.


----------



## snowjay

I'm so sick of listening to Sr. ***** and moan about his sons not reaching out and of Mikey beating around the bush getting together. And it seems like Mikey is a complete mess this season. He couldn't wear a clean shirt to the therapist?

If it wasn't for Jr, Vinnie and Nubs I'd be done with this show.


----------



## nataylor

After last week's show, I think Jason Pohl is lucky to still have a job. I can't imagine any workplace where an outburst like that wouldn't get you fired. And it seems the shop crew is getting really sick of him.

Senior knows he has problems. That's why he keeps saying they don't have to bring up stuff in the past when we wants to talk to Mikey. The problem is, all that stuff in the past is what has shaped and defined their relationship. I think it's a lot healthier to get all that stuff out in the open and deal with it rather than pretend it didn't happen. Of course, that process is going to be painful, which is why Senior doesn't want to participate.

For a 9/11 "memorial" bike, that thing sure didn't have much going on for it that said "9/11" except for the mural on the fender. You'd think they'd want to do something a little more elaborate for such an occasion. But I'd guess the client didn't want to pay for that.

Nub is an amazing artist. That faux-wood paint job was some of the best I'd ever seen.


----------



## snowjay

nataylor said:


> After last week's show, I think Jason Pohl is lucky to still have a job. I can't imagine any workplace where an outburst like that wouldn't get you fired. And it seems the shop crew is getting really sick of him.


No kidding, but if they fired him they would literally have no design team. His little hissy fit last night about the frame wasn't anything too cool either.

I agree, that tribute bike, IMHO, was anything but. It was a neat looking bike with those tanks but I'd hardly call it a tribute.

It's really nice to see Nub enjoying himself and pushing the designs now.


----------



## nataylor

snowjay said:


> I agree, that tribute bike, IMHO, was anything but. It was a neat looking bike with those tanks but I'd hardly call it a tribute.


Yup, the one thing I did like about the OCC bike was the tank. Using those spacers to bring it off the frame was a cool look.


----------



## Frylock

windracer said:


> There was one shot in the PJD shop where some bikes were covered with tarps. I wonder which those were.


He seems to cover most bikes in the shop. In an earlier episode someone came to see him and he took the tarps off, and they were the black widow and his new web bike I believe. It seems he just covers them since they sit in the shop, and he doesn't have anywhere else to store them at the moment.

I wish Sr. would let Rick design something. I bet he would do a pretty nice bike. Poole should just draw bikes that others give him. And stop acting like a spoiled 3 year old.


----------



## RandomTask

snowjay said:


> I'm so sick of listening to Sr. ***** and moan about his sons not reaching out and of Mikey beating around the bush getting together. And it seems like Mikey is a complete mess this season. He couldn't wear a clean shirt to the therapist?
> 
> If it wasn't for Jr, Vinnie and Nubs I'd be done with this show.


Me too. I think he's lucky they keep him on the show. He abused his entire family and now he wonders why they don't want to be involved with him. I wouldn't unless I was certain that he wouldn't continue that behavior.

The "tribute" was embarrassing. Haul out a bike Jr designed and go to fire station. Pathetic.

Mikey looks like he's depressed. One symptom is a complete lack of concern with physical appearance and hygiene. I feel bad for they guy. His father needs to reach out and help him get through ( AA etc). Jr wants to help but aside from including him in the show to keep the money flowing, I don't think he has any idea what to do to help.


----------



## vertigo235

I thought it was interesting hearing Rick complain about working from a design, expecially with people assuming Jr's people don't like working without a design.


----------



## DanB

snowjay said:


> I'm so sick of listening to Sr. ***** and moan about his sons not reaching out and of Mikey beating around the bush getting together. And it seems like Mikey is a complete mess this season. He couldn't wear a clean shirt to the therapist?
> 
> If it wasn't for Jr, Vinnie and Nubs I'd be done with this show.


but arent these all symptoms of dysfunction? The show, after all is Sr v Jr now, which inherently would seem to harp on the dysfunctional family aspects instead of just building bikes.


----------



## DanB

nataylor said:


> Yup, the one thing I did like about the OCC bike was the tank. Using those spacers to bring it off the frame was a cool look.


I think the paint job on the forks was very nice.

To me, it seemed the dark colored "wood" seemed to get lost in the green paint (both tank and frame), and from JR's original description it sounded like it would look more like it was assembled from pieces of miscellaneous wooden crates, instead of looking like a woody station wagon.


----------



## bareyb

If Sr. really wanted to patch things up, I think it would be fairly easy. Using the show to try and sway public opinion is not the way. If they were serious, they'd stop talking about it on Camera and have a real off camera conversation on the phone. 

The big problem I see is that Mikey wants Sr. to admit on camera that he was a crappy daddy and that he was "wrong" and Senior wants to just brush it all aside so he won't have to. Personally? I don't think Sr. is capable at this point. Even if he gets Mikey back in his life, it won't be long before he blows it and they separate once again. Unless something drastic happens (Senior gets Alzheimers or something along those lines) I don't ever see this family patching it up. Certainly not as long as they are using the show to take shots at each other.


----------



## snowjay

DanB said:


> but arent these all symptoms of dysfunction? The show, after all is Sr v Jr now, which inherently would seem to harp on the dysfunctional family aspects instead of just building bikes.


But every week it's the same song and dance from Sr., even the producers can't fix that or make it interesting in editing. He's too thick to understand the sons aren't talking to him just because of the lawsuit but everything that came before it as well. I'm just tired of hearing him cry woe is me when, IMHO, he created this situation on his own. No one around him now has the balls to call him out and tell him he f-ed up and that he should be going out of his way to fix things.


----------



## bareyb

snowjay said:


> But every week it's the same song and dance from Sr., even the producers can't fix that or make it interesting in editing. He's too thick to understand the sons aren't talking to him just because of the lawsuit but everything that came before it as well. I'm just tired of hearing him cry woe is me when, *IMHO, he created this situation on his own. No one around him now has the balls to call him out and tell him he f-ed up and that he should be going out of his way to fix things.*


Agreed. Mainly because nobody around him wants to see them reconcile. As far as I can tell just about everyone but Sr. is happier with the new arrangement.


----------



## su719

snowjay said:


> But every week it's the same song and dance from Sr., even the producers can't fix that or make it interesting in editing. He's too thick to understand the sons aren't talking to him just because of the lawsuit but everything that came before it as well. .


Just because the lawsuit ended with Sr. loosing that does not fix the fact that he sued his son. If Sr. wanted his sons back he should of backed out of the lawsuit, saying it is over does not erase the fact that he did it from everyone's mind.


----------



## DanB

snowjay said:


> But every week it's the same song and dance from Sr., even the producers can't fix that or make it interesting in editing. He's too thick to understand the sons aren't talking to him just because of the lawsuit but everything that came before it as well. I'm just tired of hearing him cry woe is me when, IMHO, he created this situation on his own. No one around him now has the balls to call him out and tell him he f-ed up and that he should be going out of his way to fix things.


I understand what you are saying, but I think the major play of the show now is the family discourse.

Do you really think Sr will ever admit to being wrong or doing things badly? He's already stated too many times that OCC was all him, even though I think he started it like 30 years ago but it never amounted to anything until the Discovery Channel did the first special, which I think Jr had a significant role in. The inability to see things as they are instead of what you believe is another indicator of dysfunction.

I'd like to see the family resolve their issues and unite, but it also shows how power. money, and greed can cause so many problems.


----------



## snowjay

DanB said:


> I understand what you are saying, but I think the major play of the show now is the family discourse.
> 
> Do you really think Sr will ever admit to being wrong or doing things badly? He's already stated too many times that OCC was all him, even though I think he started it like 30 years ago but it never amounted to anything until the Discovery Channel did the first special, which I think Jr had a significant role in. The inability to see things as they are instead of what you believe is another indicator of dysfunction.
> 
> I'd like to see the family resolve their issues and unite, but it also shows how power. money, and greed can cause so many problems.


Maybe for some people they like the family drama, I'm over it.

You want to know what else is sad, is the only reason Discovery filmed OCC is because of Mikey. They were originally in the area to film someone else but that fell through for some reason and that night they were at a bar and somehow got Mikey's ear and he was the one who told them about his father and brother. And IMHO if it wasn't for Jr's designs and fab the show wouldn't of gone anywhere.


----------



## jeepair

vertigo235 said:


> I thought it was interesting hearing Rick complain about working from a design, expecially with people assuming Jr's people don't like working without a design.


Easy fix is to have Mike, Rick and whomever in with Jason as he 'designs' the bikes. Jr used to sit with him and collaborate.


----------



## RandomTask

su719 said:


> Just because the lawsuit ended with Sr. loosing that does not fix the fact that he sued his son. If Sr. wanted his sons back he should of backed out of the lawsuit, saying it is over does not erase the fact that he did it from everyone's mind.


The lawsuit it the part of the iceberg we see. What they can't show is all the stuff that happened before. Sr is abusive and he took it out on everyone. Now he is alone. He has NO relationship with any of his sons. Not Jr, Not mike nor the one who now owns the ironworks. It's pathetic. He went through AA, he needs to do the same thing from an abuse perspective. And he is never going to do that till he stops using the show to trash talk about Mikey and Paul jr. They discuss how they feel about their father but neither of them trash talk back about him now. Sr just can't fess up to the fact that this is ALL his fault or at least 90% his fault. Until he understands that, he'll never get together with the family.



jeepair said:


> Easy fix is to have Mike, Rick and whomever in with Jason as he 'designs' the bikes. Jr used to sit with him and collaborate.


It's more basic. Jason isn't a motorcycle guy, he's a graphic artist. He makes pictures not bikes. He continually designs stuff that can't be built. Jr knows what he can do and what he cannot. Huge difference.


----------



## snowjay

jeepair said:


> Easy fix is to have Mike, Rick and whomever in with Jason as he 'designs' the bikes. Jr used to sit with him and collaborate.


And Sr. hated that, to him Jr. was wasting his time.

Except for Rick making some tanks those guys aren't bike builders, they are bike assemblers. Which is sad because some of those guys have talents that are largely untapped there.


----------



## RandomTask

snowjay said:


> And Sr. hated that, to him Jr. was wasting his time.
> 
> Except for Rick making some tanks those guys aren't bike builders, they are bike assemblers. Which is sad because some of those guys have talents that are largely untapped there.


Agreed. Basically, the make a custom tank and then add whatever thing Jim makes on the waterjet and call it a day.


----------



## nataylor

RandomTask said:


> It's more basic. Jason isn't a motorcycle guy, he's a graphic artist. He makes pictures not bikes. He continually designs stuff that can't be built. Jr knows what he can do and what he cannot. Huge difference.


I think Jason designs the bikes in a full 3D model. So if he's designing stuff that's physically impossible, it's because he has the wrong measurements for the parts or something. I think the problem is that despite having a full 3D model, they work off 2D projection drawings. When all you have is a 2D side and top projection, it can be hard to visualize the exact dimensions and relationships of the parts.

They really need one of those 3D printers so they can print off a model for the guys to use as reference.


----------



## DanB

nataylor said:


> They really need one of those 3D printers so they can print off a model for the guys to use as reference.


or just print the full sized bike, ready to ship!


----------



## snowjay

DanB said:


> or just print the full sized bike, ready to ship!


Yeah, send the coordinates to the 5-axis and it would be done. Think of all the money Sr could save on labor.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

nataylor said:


> They really need one of those 3D printers so they can print off a model for the guys to use as reference.


They already have one in Jason's office. I remember Poole playing with it an bragging about how cool it was. I think they used it to make one item and we haven't seen it again, since.


----------



## vertigo235

Yeah I remember that. Maybe it was on loan.


----------



## Satchel

Didn't see this here yet. This could be interesting...

Huge news for American Chopper fans: Jesse James is returning to the network that made him famous to compete head-to-head against the Teutuls on American Chopper.
Marking his first appearance on Discovery Chanel in five years, the former Monster Garage star will guest star on Chopper across two nights in December. Not only that, but American Chopper is going live for the first time &#8212; pitting James, Paul Teutul, Senior and Paul Teutul Jr. in a bike-building battle at the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas.
The face-off airs Dec. 5 and 6 at 9 p.m. both nights. The first night is the regularly scheduled American Chopper. You&#8217;ll see Senior, Junior and James building the bikes, and viewers will vote for their favorite. The second night is a live show from Las Vegas where the winning bike will be revealed.


----------



## aRKade

I've probably noticed it before but in this episode it really stood out why PJD's bikes are so much better than OCC's. When Jr is designing the bike he is actually thinking about what would look cool for the theme of the bike. The shape of the gas tank, the design of the exhaust, the components and accessories all fit the theme based on the clients needs. When Jason/OCC design a bike it is basically just something "cool" that they slap the clients logo on.

Jr's original 9/11 tribute bike honored the firefighters by having a fire engine shaped tank, front and rear fenders reminiscent of a fire engine, rounded handlebars to represent the large steering wheel on fire engines, accessories including an ax, ladders, fire engine siren, etc. and was highlighted by an actual piece from ground zero. OCC's new tribute bike featured... um, well I guess it featured some badges painted on the fender. wow. And I guess it had a three piece tank because it was cool. Not sure what that has to do with 9/11 or US Biker Law.com or whoever the client was but that was the featured piece on the bike.

Dekalb bike looked incredible and Nubs did an awesome job on paint. Might be his best yet. Overall theme of the bike came out awesome. Much better than OCC's three wheeler with a tractor combine thing bolted to the front.


----------



## DanB

So does OCC now sleep with the fishes?

I realize there's no correlation between rich folks and good taste, and that the client is always right, but OMG, that horse bike looks so bad right now.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

Junior's bike is looking good. I can't wait to see it finished. He continues to come up with new methods and designs while OCC keeps pushing out the same tired bikes. Junior's WTC bike is going to blow the 9/11 memorial bike that OCC did a few weeks ago, right out of the water. It's really cool that he is incorporating the different buildings into the bike.


----------



## RandomTask

DanB said:


> So does OCC now sleep with the fishes?
> 
> I realize there's no correlation between rich folks and good taste, and that the client is always right, but OMG, that horse bike looks so bad right now.


Two things made me literally LOL.

"We convinced him to let us film the bike" - Translates to, production paid for a bike to be built so we had something to film

"We make the same quality for every bike regardless of cost" in response to "someone" saying that OCC made crap bikes while PJD made high end bikes. What he said was true. The same quality for all. That is, NO quality. OCC should be embarrassed by the crap they build. Honestly, it's all junk. The build off next month will be great. Without Jim, the waterjet and the NCC machine, they won't be able to build anything. Hell, even JJ will beat them and he builds garbage too.


----------



## windracer

This build-off between OCC, PJD, and Jesse James looks like it could be interesting.


----------



## bareyb

I'm guessing this guy from Saudi Arabia is probably rich and is paying a ridiculous amount for that bike. Senior was practically drooling on that phone call. I think the reason it's on the show is because Senior thinks it's cool. The more flowjet the better!


----------



## bareyb

Oh yeah. PJD's bike. He's still coming up with cool ideas. LOVE the ibeam frame and it was cool seeing the frame guys come out and come up with a way to bend that stuff. 

My money is on PJD in the upcoming three-way challenge with Jessie James. If he can win that, I think it will really help his company. It'll be nice to see Jessie James in a build again. That was a really good era in reality TV when "Monster Garage" was on. I liked "Monster House" a lot too. I keep hoping they reboot that show and bring it back again.


----------



## RandomTask

bareyb said:


> Oh yeah. PJD's bike. He's still coming up with cool ideas. LOVE the ibeam frame and it was cool seeing the frame guys come out and come up with a way to bend that stuff.
> 
> My money is on PJD in the upcoming three-way challenge with Jessie James. If he can win that, I think it will really help his company. It'll be nice to see Jessie James in a build again. That was a really good era in reality TV when "Monster Garage" was on. I liked "Monster House" a lot too. I keep hoping they reboot that show and bring it back again.


Monster House started fine but ended up making stupid houses that weren't usable. Kind of like what happened with TOH which started by remodeling a house in Levittown and now builds multi million dollar palaces for idiots who contribute no sweat equity.

I expect PJD to clean up.


----------



## bareyb

RandomTask said:


> Monster House started fine but ended up making stupid houses that weren't usable. Kind of like what happened with TOH which started by remodeling a house in Levittown and now builds multi million dollar palaces for idiots who contribute no sweat equity.
> 
> I expect PJD to clean up.


There was an article on the "Interwebs" about all the old Monster Houses. Some of them went up in value and some of them had to be rebuilt.


----------



## RandomTask

bareyb said:


> There was an article on the "Interwebs" about all the old Monster Houses. Some of them went up in value and some of them had to be rebuilt.


Well played.... I expect the ups were early and the rebuilts were later.


----------



## bareyb

RandomTask said:


> Well played.... I expect the ups were early and the rebuilts were later.


----------



## DLL66

The Horse Bike is not impressive at all. I would think they would make the horse head like a fairing type of thing that sticks out from the bike.


----------



## jeepair

DLL66 said:


> The Horse Bike is not impressive at all. I would think they would make the horse head like a fairing type of thing that sticks out from the bike.


Agree, the head should have been around the headlight with maybe the eyes as the headlights. As of now, the head tank is fugly.

I like the PJD bike but I thought the front forks looked a bit too much. I think they should have rounded the ibeam corners a little. Once it is painted and finalized It will probably flow together nicely. Hope the spikes on the tank aren't too sharp and are rounded off on the ends.

Cody is full time now.

Free Rick.


----------



## DanB

this would have been much better


----------



## nataylor

That horse bike looked terrible. It looks like the horse's head was impaled.

The 9/11 bike Junior made was leaps and bounds above anything OCC is producing there days. As a tribute bike, it was right up there with the original Fire bike. Definitely one of the best bikes ever shown on the series.

And Jesse James is d-bag.


----------



## windracer

Jesse James seemed much more intelligent when he was on Celebrity Apprentice a few years ago. But his segments yesterday? Was he high or something?

The PJD bike was amazing. Where WAS the actual gas tank? Was it the in the narrow part of the frame between the two parts of the transportation center spikes?


----------



## snowjay

nataylor said:


> The 9/11 bike Junior made was leaps and bounds above anything OCC is producing there days.


There is no way OCC would put that much time and energy into a single bike. And IMHO Poohl could never come up with something like that.


----------



## nataylor

snowjay said:


> There is no way OCC would put that much time and energy into a single bike. And IMHO Poohl could never come up with something like that.


Totally agree. They mentioned Poohl had designed the exhaust on the Grainger bike with a crossover (essentially constricting the dual exhaust to the diameter of single exhaust pipe). How does that make it through the whole client approval process into construction when its means the engine won't run? The client shouldn't even be seeing a design that includes something that won't physically work. It's because they just don't care. Absolutely no attention to detail from OCC.


----------



## tripmac

A couple of questions from this episode.

1- How long did it take Jr. to make the bike? He mentioned weeks of powdercoat and chrome so I am assuming this was a long process. Leads me to believe he took his time and just did not slap together parts.

2- What was up with the airplane in Jr's shop?


----------



## SocratesJohnson

tripmac said:


> 2- What was up with the airplane in Jr's shop?


Inspiration for an upcoming project?


----------



## bareyb

nataylor said:


> Totally agree. They mentioned Poohl had designed the exhaust on the Grainger bike with a crossover (essentially constricting the dual exhaust to the diameter of single exhaust pipe). How does that make it through the whole client approval process into construction when its means the engine won't run? The client shouldn't even be seeing a design that includes something that won't physically work. It's because they just don't care. Absolutely no attention to detail from OCC.


I caught that too. It's probably why a few years ago they were trying to get Poohl more involved in fabrication. Turns out he was a lot better with a stylus then he is with a wrench. I think now they just let him bang out the general design and then the fabricators have to deal with it.

The Horse bike was plain Tacky. I can only HOPE the client insisted on using an actual horse head and this wasn't Poohl's idea. It's just a little too "on the nose" for me. They could have done a nice tribute to Arabians without having to be so literal about it. In the end, it just goes to show where all the real taste in that operation came from back in the glory days, and it was not Paul Senior or Poohl.


----------



## Malcontent

windracer said:


> But his segments yesterday? Was he high or something?


Winning!!


----------



## jeepair

Malcontent said:


> Winning!!


Lol, too much Tiger Blood.

On the gas tank for the 9/11 tribute bike. I'm guessing its very small so they probably hid it somewhere like under the ibeam. They can get away with a small tank because that bike will probably never be ridden, only placed in the museum.

Btw, I do agree with Jesse on the "Theme Bikes" lol.


----------



## snowjay

The tank is up at the front of the frame under the Pentagon/NY plaque.


----------



## windracer

jeepair said:


> They can get away with a small tank because that bike will probably never be ridden, only placed in the museum.


Speaking of that, the mayor said in his speech that they would be selling raffle tickets. So are they selling the bike and then hoping the seller will donate it to the museum?


----------



## WhiskeyTango

windracer said:


> Speaking of that, the mayor said in his speech that they would be selling raffle tickets. So are they selling the bike and then hoping the seller will donate it to the museum?


https://www.911memorial.org/catalog/paul-jr-designs-wtc-motorcycle-raffle.html


----------



## RichardHead

Frankly, I'm surprised that Jr.'s 9/11 bike is only valued at $50k and he thinks that's the bike that will put him on the map. I know that these are 'theme' bikes but I don't think either of them have ever built a bike that I would actually want to ride for more than ten minutes ... if some of them can even run that long!

The only reason I started watching the show was for the family and company dynamic. That's long gone! Adding Jesse to the mix seems pretty desperate.

All of the builders in the original Biker Build offs produced much better machines than the OCC or PJD ever did ... or will.


----------



## bareyb

RichardHead said:


> Frankly, I'm surprised that Jr.'s 9/11 bike is only valued at $50k and he thinks that's the bike that will put him on the map. I know that these are 'theme' bikes but I don't think either of them have ever built a bike that I would actually want to ride for more than ten minutes ... if some of them can even run that long!
> 
> The only reason I started watching the show was for the family and company dynamic. That's long gone! Adding Jesse to the mix seems pretty desperate.
> 
> *All of the builders in the original Biker Build offs produced much better machines than the OCC or PJD ever did ... or will.*


Well... Not ALL. But there _were_ some pretty darn good builders on that show. I remember there being some pretty "bad" (in the original sense of the word) bikes that got built on that show too.


----------



## snowjay

It's like comparing apples to oranges though... they were building bikes to ride, OCC/PJD are generally contracted to build a show piece, but have produced some streetable bikes as well.

I don't really agree with JJ's comment about putting a logo on an air cleaner, that's typical MO for OCC now (or just bolt on stuff) but many past-OCC and anything PJD is doing far from that.

I never recall any radical designs from JJ, but he did hand make everything, but even now he has mass produced parts he can grab from.


----------



## RandomTask

BTW, The build off episode will not be recorded by the Senior Vs Junior SP. You need to record is separately.


----------



## windracer

I reported that here, but should have though to post it in this thread as well.


----------



## RandomTask

windracer said:


> I reported that here, but should have though to post it in this thread as well.


Yep, I could have just linked to your post as I looked there first when I found out. But, I wanted to make sure the regular watchers found out.


----------



## SocratesJohnson

OCC and Poole are just getting embarrassing. When he first brought up the rendering of that "thing" I just kept waiting for him to say, "Nah, just kidding..."
Poor Rick, you could tell he wasn't thrilled while everyone else was eating it up.


----------



## snowjay

I think it's a cool machine, but not for this build off. I guess they know they would get their ass handed to them if they built a regular bike.


----------



## Frylock

Poole has become the most annoying character by far. I just want to punch him every time he starts acting like a moron, which is 100% of the time.

I also am getting tired of the amount of time spent discussing the other shops. If Vinnie and Cody are so convinced their stuff is better, who cares about what OCC does? PJD needs to drop their obsession with OCC, and just build things. Jesse made the best point that it's comparing Apples and Oranges. All 3 shops have different approaches and different focuses. 

That, and Jesse needs to leave town. No one wants him here. He needs to go back to LA!


----------



## snowjay

I'm not feeling PJD's bike 100%. I think the tank was a cool concept but I think they went way overboard with the rivet effect.

Jesse's bike looks like any other bike. OCC built a toy.


----------



## nataylor

I thought the PJD bike looked really slick. I love the mix of copper, nickle, and chrome. It almost looks a little steampunk.

JJ's bike was... a bike. And it looked like about the most uncomfortable sitting position. I don't think I'd want to ride to Sturgis with my knees in my face and my arms above my head.

OCC's "bike..." In a way, I like it. As snowjay said, I don't think it was the right choice for this build off. It didn't really say "craftsmanship" the way the other two bikes did. They use pre-made track assemblies, have someone else make the frame, and bring in an outside guy to figure out the whole drive mechanism. Also, the way the front cowling vibrated up and down when the thing was moving made it look cheap. As a movie prop, it would be perfect. As an example of the best they're capable of creating, it falls flat.


----------



## RandomTask

nataylor said:


> I thought the PJD bike looked really slick. I love the mix of copper, nickle, and chrome. It almost looks a little steampunk.
> 
> JJ's bike was... a bike. And it looked like about the most uncomfortable sitting position. I don't think I'd want to ride to Sturgis with my knees in my face and my arms above my head.
> 
> OCC's "bike..." In a way, I like it. As snowjay said, I don't think it was the right choice for this build off. It didn't really say "*craftsmanship*" the way the other two bikes did. They use pre-made track assemblies, have someone else make the frame, and bring in an outside guy to figure out the whole drive mechanism. Also, the way the front cowling vibrated up and down when the thing was moving made it look cheap. As a movie prop, it would be perfect. As an example of the best they're capable of creating, it falls flat.


The bigger problem is that it didn't say *BIKE*. It was ridiculous and they did it just to say they could. NO ONE would ever use that thing. JJ's bike was boring and looked like crap. I don't like everything about the PJD bike but it's the winner by a country mile.


----------



## Gerryex

SocratesJohnson said:


> Poor Rick, you could tell he wasn't thrilled while everyone else was eating it up.


YES!! I got that same impression. Rick was dead silent while everyone else was all ga-ga over the bike. . . or whatever it was!!!

Gerry


----------



## Swirl_Junkie

OCC just acted as a Contractor on this. There wasn't even a gas tank to fab. I don't think they showed them do anything but bolt on parts from other manufacturers. 

I used to really like Jesse James, mostly for Monster Garage, but with his attitude, I don't see him getting another show of his own. The frame was cool, but I can't see how it's that much more ride-able, or faster than the PJD bike. Props for the Blacksmithing, but there's a reason they invented C&C machines. In the end he just ended up using guys he didn't really know to help him
At least Jr had his own subcontractors from the start.


----------



## hospadam

I was really thrown off by Jesse James' attitude. I used to really like him - but wow - what an ass.


----------



## RandomTask

hospadam said:


> I was really thrown off by Jesse James' attitude. I used to really like him - but wow - what an ass.


Wow, that's the truth. Every other word is #$%#$, this or #$#@ that.

OCC just assembled parts. There is no building involved.

I like the PJD bike but the mustang thing was over blown since it wasn't a real mustang. It's a 3/4 scale replica. It looks nice but it isn't built anything like the real article. OTOH, the way they built on the aviation theme was impressive.

After looking at the pictures, my impression was that it wouldn't be close. After watching the show, I KNOW it won't be close.


----------



## bareyb

Just for grins I went and voted at chopperlive.com. Voted for PJD's bike. JJ's bike was basically the same bike he's done a million times. Not sure what he meant when he said "my bikes are made to be _ridden_, not looked at, ridden FAST". He looked like an Ape riding a tricycle on that thing. No WAY that is a motorcycle for people who like to ride. His constant cutting down of the other builders got really old too. Either succeed on your own merits or STFU. The more I see Jessie James, the more I think, WTH was Sandra Bullock thinking?

OCC? I don't even know what to say. That track thing is unrideable and downright dangerous. It looked like the Electrical guy they brought in really hurt himself on it. I can't imagine what someone would actually DO with that thing.


----------



## Gerryex

I am not a motorcycle person at all, let alone a chopper person. In fact I think I've been on a motorcycle only once or twice in my whole life!!

But I have to say that JJ's bike seems to put the driver in the MOST UNCOMFORTABLE position I've ever seen on any of the bikes shown on Am Chopper. At one point while he's riding it he's only using one hand on the handle bars and it looked like he was doing it because it was hard to stretch his body enough to keep both hands on it for an extended period of time.

And yes, on the OCC "bike" they did VERY LITTLE fabrication. Someone pointed out that the treads were bought fully functional, the frame was built by someone else and the electrical hook-up was done by another contractor. So what did OCC do other than the initial design by Jason?

We'll see what happens at the live show tonight!

Gerry


----------



## SocratesJohnson

You kinda got the feeling OCC is just trying to save face. They kept talking about how they wouldn't win because it just a popularity contest. Now when they get killed in the voting, "No problem, we were just having fun with it. We didn't even build a motorcycle."


----------



## Rainy Dave

I liked the workmanship on JJ's bike. But, the final product just a nice looking chopper. Not the bad*ss machine he kept saying it was going to be. 

PJD's bike had an amazing amount of detail. It didn't look like a bike you could ride daily, but dayum! I do wish they would have left the smoke gimmick off of it. That seemed a bit cheesy.

OCC's creation while cool isn't a bike. I think the old man is losing it. And Jason is just a moron. The rest of the crew (except for Rick) just seem to play along with whatever Sr and Jason come up with. They probably want to keep the company on the show so they can keep a paycheck coming in.


----------



## hospadam

If there's any question about Jr's influence in the design of OCC bikes - this build off answers that. Could you ever see Jr. concepting the 'bike' that OCC produced? In fact - PJD *could* have built something like that for the Gears of War 3 bike - but they did a (in my opinion awesome) trike concept. 

If OCC would have built a Trike with tracks - then I think that might have been cool. But - they effectively built a high-tech toy. It has nothing in common with a motorcycle of any kind, right? They might as well should have built an airplane, or a segway, or any other transportation device.


----------



## jeepair

Its between JJ and PJD, OCC definately deserves that 1% they received for pre-voting. Uggh, why build a toy? 

While I like PJD's bike and "THEME" it too looks very uncomfortable to ride as with JJ's bike. I agree with JJ, his bikes are built to ride whereas PJD's bikes are built to be placed somewhere and view like a work of art. Tough decision but I'm guessing PJD beats JJ by a small margin.


----------



## DanB

well, not really sure what the point of this "build off" is. Even the competitors say they build different kinds of bikes, so why compete against each other?

I wonder if the whole point is to let Discovery channel decide if there's enough interest to bring JJ back on his own show?

When did this build off begin? I think they said they had 3 weeks for the build. Was voting open since then? Why would Discovery open up voting before the final episode? It does seem to be more of a popularity contest instead of bike based.

I remember another bike build off show that also had the builders ride the bike x hundred miles together and then a crowd would judge at the destination. If you're going to build show bikes, thats one thing, if you're going to build bikes that are meant to be ridden then thats another.

Jr, another plane inspired bike? Well, at least it didnt have webs on it.

To me, PJD's bike is just too shiny -- looked like one solid piece of metal to me.

I did think it was kind of cute when the PJD folks were complaining about JJ calling them cake decorators, and there they were adding cosmetics to the tank. Why not design the tank to be actually riveted instead of just attaching panels to an already formed tank? Maybe time constraints, but it did look like cake decorating to me.

And who were the new faces at OCC for this build? Was most of it outsourced? I agree with previous folks and I think Sr just decided to build something that wouldnt even qualify as a bike so he could say it was because of that (pushing the envelope) that he came in last.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

Of all of the dumb comments in this build off, the award for dumbest has to go to Jason Poole when he complained about Jr's bikes all being the same with the paint job and bolt on parts being the only differences. Hey dummy, you just described every bike OCC has built over the last few years!


----------



## mrdbdigital

DanB said:


> Why not design the tank to be actually riveted instead of just attaching panels to an already formed tank? Maybe time constraints, but it did look like cake decorating to me.


It's kind of hard to keep gas in a riveted tank.


----------



## Rainy Dave

mrdbdigital said:


> It's kind of hard to keep gas in a riveted tank.


The "gas tank" was not actually designed to hold fuel. It was a shell for the exhaust. Their was a fuel cell down lower on the frame.


----------



## snowjay

WhiskeyTango said:


> Of all of the dumb comments in this build off, the award for dumbest has to go to Jason Poole when he complained about Jr's bikes all being the same with the paint job and bolt on parts being the only differences. Hey dummy, you just described every bike OCC has built over the last few years!


Yeah, he's clearly delusional.


----------



## Gerryex

Hi ALL,

As I said in other posts, I am not a motorcycle person, but I've been watching this show for many many years. I like the mixture of assembly techniques and the various personalities. In all those years while I fully admit that Jr's work ethic was sometimes lacking I still felt that Sr was way to overbearing and picked fights with Jr for the smallest things. That being said I often wondered if Jr would be able to do business on his own.

Well, while this build off certainly was more of a popularity contest vs truly best bike, it did show with out a doubt that Jr WAS able to put together his own company and make it into a fairly successful enterprise. Yeah, so what if his bikes are more for show than for taking a long trip on. If there are customers for those kinds of bikes and he can satisfy his customers then MORE POWER TO HIM!!

So I say to Jr CONGRATULATIONS on making your own company and continued success to you!!

Gerry


----------



## RandomTask

I think what this showed more than anything else is how much Jr has matured. His dad and JJ did nothing but trash everyone while Jr treated them with respect, I find it telling that Sr is so delusional that he still thinks Jr was trash talking in the 2 hr build off show when the opposite was happening. They'll never really mend their fences cause .Sr is not capable of stepping back and seeing where the truth really lies. Pretty sad how threatened he is. Until he treats both Jr and mikey with respect, nothing will change and I think this showed that it won't happen anytime soon. 

I assume the vote was quite lopsided since they didn't show it.


----------



## Malcontent

I did find it interesting when JJ was talking about his relationship with his father. How much they didn't get along. JJ described it as almost being a slave working in his father's shop. It was school, football and the shop. That's it. JJ said unlike his relationship with his father, Jr. and Sr. can still patch things up.


----------



## aRKade

I'm not sure I get Jesse James claiming he builds bikes for people to ride. It seemed to me his bike had a gas tank and handlebar risers directly in the line of sight. You either have to drive blind or lean to the side and duck to see past the gas tank and under your arm. That seems really dangerous and uncomfortable to me.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

aRKade said:


> I'm not sure I get Jesse James claiming he builds bikes for people to ride. It seemed to me his bike had a gas tank and handlebar risers directly in the line of sight. You either have to drive blind or lean to the side and duck to see past the gas tank and under your arm. That seems really dangerous and uncomfortable to me.


I noticed that when they showed him riding it. He kept looking to the side of the headlight to be able to see.


----------



## bareyb

aRKade said:


> I'm not sure I get Jesse James claiming he builds bikes for people to ride. It seemed to me his bike had a gas tank and handlebar risers directly in the line of sight. You either have to drive blind or lean to the side and duck to see past the gas tank and under your arm. That seems really dangerous and uncomfortable to me.


Totally agree. I'd far rather take Junior's bike on a long cruise than Jesse's. All Sr's bike is good for is doing 360's. JJ's previous bikes were much better IMO. This was not his best work. He could have done better, but had to keep it simple since he wanted everything to be hand made.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

bareyb said:


> Totally agree. I'd far rather take Junior's bike on a long cruise than Jesse's. All Sr's bike is good for is doing 360's. JJ's previous bikes were much better IMO. This was not his best work. He could have done better, but had to keep it simple since he wanted everything to be hand made.


I'm not sure it would be very comfortable on a long cruise with a metal riveted seat. Other than that I agree. As for Sr's thing, he said it can go over 90 mph yet none of the footage they showed of people riding it went above, I'd say, 5mph.


----------



## inaka

Malcontent said:


> I did find it interesting when JJ was talking about his relationship with his father. How much they didn't get along. JJ described it as almost being a slave working in his father's shop. It was school, football and the shop. That's it. JJ said unlike his relationship with his father, Jr. and Sr. can still patch things up.


Based on his track record, I bet a heavy amount of skirt chasing was also part of his daily routine...


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

Plain and simple, OCC's "bike" was a joke. Did they buy some kind of kit or something? I kept expecting them to put a horse head tank on it. 

Jr's bike was interesting, but odd. The plane theme just didn't work for me. I wonder if he shouldn't have just made another Geiko bike or some sort of version of the Cadillac bike. JJ does have a point though, Jr's bikes aren't riders. They're show pieces. 

JJ's bike looked just like all of his other bikes but a different paint job. 

I was not impressed with any of them. 

The ending of my recording was clipped by a minute so I didn't see who won. I assume it was PJD?


----------



## bareyb

Yep. PJD. They didn't elaborate on the split.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

Thanks!


----------



## bryhamm

bareyb said:


> Totally agree. *I'd far rather take Junior's bike on a long cruise* than Jesse's. All Sr's bike is good for is doing 360's. JJ's previous bikes were much better IMO. This was not his best work. He could have done better, but had to keep it simple since he wanted everything to be hand made.


can't really happen


----------



## inaka

I love how Jesse during the live taping had the balls to say he made his bike "by hand". Huh? He made the motor? He painted the tank? He didn't need a local crew to come help him meet his deadline? All he did was forge the steel to make the frame, on a bike style that's been done to death. Yawn.

Then the other end of the spectrum, did OCC even make their "bike" at all? I mean, I have a feeling the first time Senior ever touched the bike at all was when they were showing him how to ride it.


----------



## windracer

Somehow, I missed the live part!  My TiVo only recorded the two hours and that was it. Sounds like I didn't miss much, though.

This was the first of PJD's bikes that I didn't really like. The design and idea was cool, but the final product was too much silver and copper (and rivets!!). Maybe if he had done a paint job like the mustang (nose art, numbers, "no step", things like that) I would have liked it more.

My vote on this one would have been with Jesse just because he seems to do more stuff himself (building the frame, all the blacksmithing work, etc.).


----------



## Frylock

Swirl_Junkie said:


> OCC just acted as a Contractor on this. There wasn't even a gas tank to fab. I don't think they showed them do anything but bolt on parts from other manufacturers.
> 
> I used to really like Jesse James, mostly for Monster Garage, but with his attitude, I don't see him getting another show of his own. The frame was cool, but I can't see how it's that much more ride-able, or faster than the PJD bike. Props for the Blacksmithing, but there's a reason they invented C&C machines. In the end he just ended up using guys he didn't really know to help him
> At least Jr had his own subcontractors from the start.


Actually, it seems he has partial ownership in that shop. So he definitely knew them.


----------



## Frylock

bareyb said:


> Totally agree. I'd far rather take Junior's bike on a long cruise than Jesse's. All Sr's bike is good for is doing 360's. JJ's previous bikes were much better IMO. This was not his best work. He could have done better, but had to keep it simple since he wanted everything to be hand made.


That is where JJ has some good points though. You can't ride the bikes Jr makes. They are just there to look at. While JJ may not be comfortable (it is a classic chopper design), at least it was a real bike you could actually ride. Sr. and Jr. don't build bikes. Sr build crap these days. Jr builds pieces of art.


----------



## snowjay

Jr has made a few bikes with fill size tanks that could be rode for a while. I don't think they are all just pieces of art.


----------



## bareyb

snowjay said:


> Jr has made a few bikes with fill size tanks that could be rode for a while. I don't think they are all just pieces of art.


I didn't think it was true when Jesse James said it either. Junior makes perfectly rideable bikes. Now granted the rivet bike did have a one gallon tank, but hey, that's enough to get to the Bar and Starbucks, which are the only two places people who own custom bikes go anyway.


----------



## windracer

New episodes are back ...

I had forgotten my TiVo completely missed the Live unveil so I'm glad they did a little recap of the results. Looks like I didn't miss too much. It was a little sad to see Senior there all by himself and getting boo'ed by the crowd but it was cool to see the PJD team getting to watch it during their celebratory dinner.

I cannot believe Trump actually asked Jason to re-design the logo for his helicopter. Really?? It should be interesting to see how Senior's appearance on Celebrity Apprentice is shown on Chopper.


----------



## nataylor

windracer said:


> I cannot believe Trump actually asked Jason to re-design the logo for his helicopter. Really?? It should be interesting to see how Senior's appearance on Celebrity Apprentice is shown on Chopper.


Given Senior had a "break" from filming Celebrity Apprentice, I assume he was fired pretty early.


----------



## windracer

I thought that too at first, but I figured they don't shoot they entire show all at once, straight through, do they? Plus, according to Google Maps, OCC is only about 70 miles away from Trump Tower so that'd be an "easy" commute for Senior.


----------



## nataylor

windracer said:


> I thought that too at first, but I figured they don't shoot they entire show all at once, straight through, do they? Plus, according to Google Maps, OCC is only about 70 miles away from Trump Tower so that'd be an "easy" commute for Senior.


I don't know. I just assumed they did shoot straight through, with one take for the task reveal, one day for the task. Thus they can shoot the whole thing in under 4 weeks.


----------



## DanB

Sr is acting more and more like a jilted girlfriend or something about his relationship with Jr (why doesnt he call??). geez.

Also, Trump was just a d-ouche for butting in a telling Sr not to leave anything to Jr.


----------



## nataylor

Trump and OCC/Senior do seem to share the same taste. Both seem to like a sort of garish, bolted-on luxury.


----------



## snowjay

DanB said:


> Sr is acting more and more like a jilted girlfriend or something about his relationship with Jr (why doesnt he call??). geez.


I'm so sick of Sr. playing the "oh poor me" card.

Dude, you fired and then SUED your son, you don't get to have any sympathy.

You created this situation, you fix it, don't expect someone else to do your dirty work.


----------



## billboard_NE

The Donald recommending Sr leave nothing to Jr..... Isn't Sr broke anyway?


----------



## inaka

snowjay said:


> I'm so sick of Sr. playing the "oh poor me" card.
> 
> Dude, you fired and then SUED your son, you don't get to have any sympathy.
> 
> You created this situation, you fix it, don't expect someone else to do your dirty work.


this! :up:

Plus, anytime Donald Trump is on your side giving you advice, that pretty much seals it that you're acting like a db.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

I thought it was amusing how Sr. was telling Trump about Jr. stealing his business manager. "well, I fired him. Then Jr. hired him and he told Jr all the stuff he knew about OCC" Well, no s**t Sherlock. What do you expect to happen. Any good business in direct competition would do the same thing.

From previews for next week


Spoiler



Sr. mentions that Paulie didn't go to his (Sr.'s) step-mother's funeral. I am very curious to hear Paulie's explanation for that.


----------



## Rainy Dave

Lordy that Trump bike was ugly.


----------



## RichardHead

Rainy Dave said:


> Lordy that Trump bike was ugly.


You can't ever say that Trump has 'good' taste. Look at his homes! They look like over-the-top French whore houses.


----------



## snowjay

I thought the rendering Pohl did was good looking, but in execution it failed.


----------



## jeepair

Its hard to judge but from my perspective I thought the Trump bike looked pretty good. Much better than the garbage which has been coming out of OCC. Same with the newer "Eagle" bike. It appears, to me, they should have painted or highlighted the talons as they appear lost in all of that chrome. They should stand out more, maybe they do in real life.


----------



## bareyb

snowjay said:


> I thought the rendering Pohl did was good looking, but in execution it failed.


Same here. I thought it looked much better with the Satin Finished Gold. Although considering the client, it's probably right on the mark. It'll look right at home in one of Trump's garish lobbies.

Okay... I have to say this. Senior needs some help. He needs to go to a therapist and learn why he has to WIN against his kids. All this crap inviting Mikey to come to the painting party is so WRONG and going about it so WRONG that it's hard to believe. He has no idea what to do, and the sad part is, it' so easy to fix.

All Senior has to do is leave this message:

Paulie, 
I have been so wrong about everything, and it's ruining my life. I have no kids who even called me when my Mother died (assuming this means NONE of his kids called him, even his daughter) and it's become very clear to me that I am the common denominator.

I want to start over. I will never tell you how to live your life again. I just want to talk once in awhile or even email. I'm sorry for the way I've behaved and I'm sorry for all those years I was drinking when you were young. I don't want to leave this earth with things the way they are. If you can find it in your heart to forgive me, I promise you I will never give you a reason to mistrust me again.

Your Daddy etc.

And then he'd really have to do it. Leave his kids the hell alone and give Danny whatever money he stole from him in the Metal Business. Also stop telling all his kids what to do, and stop making them feel like they are constantly disappointing him. Stop inviting them to things that you know they will say "no" to. Stop being pushy and loud. Just be a nice guy. I think he'd be amazed how fast his kids would forgive him and come back. I hate to say it, but my Dad used to be a real dick and nobody would go near him. He changed a few years ago (got Alzheimers) and now at least in my case, things have healed. The ONLY reason Paulie hasn't forgiven him is because Senior continues to re-open old wounds and create new ones with the things he says on the Show. It's stupid.


----------



## inaka

Yup.

It's hard to feel sorry for Senior when in one episode he's agreeing/gloating with Trump that he's not going to leave his son a dime, and then in the next episode he's wondering why his son won't reach out to him. He's a mess and and you said, I've never heard him admit how wrong he has acted. Only that he wants to "start fresh" and start from a "clean slate"...uhhh, yeah, because then he wouldn't have to address his issues at all.


----------



## nataylor

Yup, Senior's problem is that he just wants to forget the past and move on. Without dealing with those issues, what happened before is just going to happen again.


----------



## robbhimself

inaka said:


> ...he's not going to leave his son a dime...


that's what normal people say, trump phrased it [trump voice]"don't leave him ten cents"[/trump voice], which bothered me while watching the episode, i don't know why, but it just seemed off.


----------



## bareyb

Just for the hell of it, I emailed the note to Paulie to OCC. I wonder if they'll answer me back? I don't really care, I just had to send it.


----------



## inaka

robbhimself said:


> that's what normal people say, trump phrased it [trump voice]"don't leave him ten cents"[/trump voice], which bothered me while watching the episode, i don't know why, but it just seemed off.


Yeah, you're right about the "ten cents" line. That entire exchange bothered me too. Trump is such a db.

In a totally unrelated note, a new drinking game while watching this show should be to take a shot each time Junior says "knocked it out of the park" when describing the work Nub, or any other vendor did. LOL He seems to say that each time, multiple times an episode.


----------



## SeanC

inaka said:


> Yeah, you're right about the "ten cents" line. That entire exchange bothered me too. Trump is such a db.
> 
> In a totally unrelated note, a new drinking game while watching this show should be to take a shot each time Junior says "knocked it out of the park" when describing the work Nub, or any other vendor did. LOL He seems to say that each time, multiple times an episode.


anytime anyone says "We've never done that before" drink
anytime Junior says "sick" drink


----------



## inaka

SeanC said:


> anytime anyone says "We've never done that before" drink
> anytime Junior says "sick" drink


Anytime Senior says "idear" drink.


----------



## snowjay

I thought the airlift bike was one of the nicest bikes OCC has put out in a long time. The 811 bike was good looking as well, I liked Nubs paint job.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

I can't believe Mikey was pushing 350lbs.


----------



## Tivortex

bareyb said:


> All Senior has to do is leave this message:


Snowballs chance...


----------



## ncsercs

nataylor said:


> Yup, Senior's problem is that he just wants to forget the past and move on. Without dealing with those issues, what happened before is just going to happen again.


Jr and Mikey did forget the past and move on.

They just decided to do it without him and I think everyone is better off.


----------



## bareyb

Tivortex said:


> Snowballs chance...


True... Another option would be for him to simply stop talking smack about Paulie on the show every chance he gets. He needs to stop any type of competing with the kid too. I think the whole "Senior vs. Junior" thing has gone to his head.


----------



## Gary McCoy

snowjay said:


> I thought the airlift bike was one of the nicest bikes OCC has put out in a long time. The 811 bike was good looking as well, I liked Nubs paint job.


The Airlift bike just blew me away. Totally original, and incredibly innovative.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

bareyb said:


> He needs to stop any type of competing with the kid too. I think the whole "Senior vs. Junior" thing has gone to his head.


I think that is what caused this whole situation to begin with. When Jr worked for OCC, Sr felt that he was losing control to Jr. Sr seemed to feel the need to keep Jr in his place and assert himself as the dominant one.


----------



## Frylock

Sr. may be an ass, there's no doubt about that. But to not show up at the funeral? That's classless. Not to send even send a text? Also classless. Vinnie HATES Sr, and he still knew the difference between personal stuff and losing a loved one. I lost a lot of respect for Mikey and Jr. there.

Also, what does Mikey want? First he complains that he doesn't feel comfortable in a 1-on-1 situation with Sr. So Sr. tries to do a group activity, just so they are in the same room. And Mikey then views that as too much. Can't have it both ways. You're not "building a relationship slowly" if you never speak. That's just not building a relationship. Either man up and say you don't want one, or actually try and mend things.


----------



## nataylor

Frylock said:


> Sr. may be an ass, there's no doubt about that. But to not show up at the funeral? That's classless. Not to send even send a text? Also classless. Vinnie HATES Sr, and he still knew the difference between personal stuff and losing a loved one. I lost a lot of respect for Mikey and Jr. there.


According to Junior, they did go to the funeral. Didn't Senior mention he left early? Apparently he missed seeing Junior.



Frylock said:


> Also, what does Mikey want? First he complains that he doesn't feel comfortable in a 1-on-1 situation with Sr. So Sr. tries to do a group activity, just so they are in the same room. And Mikey then views that as too much. Can't have it both ways. You're not "building a relationship slowly" if you never speak. That's just not building a relationship. Either man up and say you don't want one, or actually try and mend things.


There's a big difference between, say, seeing his father along with a trusted, neutral third person and seeing his father with a crowd of strangers.


----------



## snowjay

nataylor said:


> According to Junior, they did go to the funeral. Didn't Senior mention he left early? Apparently he missed seeing Junior.


Jr went to the wake, not the funeral, IIRC.


----------



## nataylor

snowjay said:


> Jr went to the wake, not the funeral, IIRC.


According to his Twitter account, he went to her "services."


----------



## inaka

Gary McCoy said:


> The Airlift bike just blew me away. Totally original, and incredibly innovative.


This one didn't work for me. It seemed gimmicky and not innovative. I was also a bit confused when during the water jet process they are showing an incredible amount of detail on the eagle's talons, but then the final result didn't really show any of that texture detail. Nub's work also seems to really blow away the OCC paint guy in my book as well.

Actually, the same could have been true for Jr.'s 811 bike. Just slapping a shovel on there as an engine cover seemed gimmicky as well, but the paint job was incredible to me and really tied it together without making me fee like the dig items just thrown on the bike.

Just my 2 cents...


----------



## inaka

nataylor said:


> According to Junior, they did go to the funeral. Didn't Senior mention he left early? Apparently he missed seeing Junior.


Yeah, it sounded like they went to the wake, but maybe not the funeral. But I'd give Mikey and Jr. the benefit of the doubt on this one. Junior called and left a voice message to Sr when his dog died, even in what appeared to be a more strained time of their relationship, so I don't think he would just not do anything at all for a death of Sr's mom.


----------



## DanB

People handle death and grieving in different ways. Should we really judge?


----------



## WhiskeyTango

DanB said:


> People handle death and grieving in different ways. Should we really judge?


Yes. That's what the internet is for.


----------



## bobvr

This post was made by Paul Jr on Feb 18 on his Facebook page....




__ https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=300231850040051&id=127838953946009



"I want to thank everyone for their condolences for the passing of Grandma Helen. We loved her very much and we will miss her. Unfortunately, I can't believe the way I am being portrayed or that I even have to defend myself, but I can assure you that my entire family and I paid our respects to Grandma Helen by attending her services.
Paul Jr."


----------



## bareyb

bobvr said:


> This post was made by Paul Jr on Feb 18 on his Facebook page....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=300231850040051&id=127838953946009
> 
> 
> 
> "I want to thank everyone for their condolences for the passing of Grandma Helen. We loved her very much and we will miss her. Unfortunately, I can't believe the way I am being portrayed or that I even have to defend myself, but I can assure you that my entire family and I paid our respects to Grandma Helen by attending her services.
> Paul Jr."


Why did he say "services"? It makes it sound like he's lying. Why not just say "I went to the Funeral"? My guess is, because he didn't go... I personally somewhat understand him not wanting to go near his Dad. Until you have had that kind of relationship, it's hard to understand. My Dad used to LITERALLY make my skin crawl. The thought of seeing him (usually forced) often made me physically ill and I would begin retching and dry heaving before seeing him. It used to have a very physical effect on me. Even so... That's pretty harsh not to even drop Dad a text... There's some serious anger there...


----------



## Frylock

nataylor said:


> According to Junior, they did go to the funeral. Didn't Senior mention he left early? Apparently he missed seeing Junior.


They went to the wake, not the funeral. They really should have attended both.



nataylor said:


> There's a big difference between, say, seeing his father along with a trusted, neutral third person and seeing his father with a crowd of strangers.


There's also a difference between a "trusted, neutral third person" and someone who has been treating/seeing Mikey for some time, and has heard one side of a relationship. I also don't think Mikey understood what Sr. was trying to do. I think Sr. would just like to be in the same room with his kids and be civil. You can't mend that much pain in one angry re-hashing the past session. They need to learn to be civil to one another and work towards healing the past.


----------



## Frylock

bareyb said:


> Why did he say "services" it makes it sound like he's lying. Why not just say "I went to the Funeral"? My guess is, because he didn't go... I personally somewhat understand him not wanting to go near his Dad. Until you have had that kind of relationship, it's hard to understand. My Dad used to LITERALLY make my skin crawl. The thought of seeing him (usually forced) often made me physically ill and I would begin retching and dry heaving before seeing him. It used to have a very physical effect on me. Even so... That's pretty harsh not to even drop Dad a text... There's some serious anger there...


I think Jr. is trying to cover. He went to a "service", the wake. He didn't go to the funeral. Sr. wouldn't leave early during the funeral. So no way Jr. was there. I can understand not wanting to be in the same room as him, but there are times to put your differences aside and do it for her, not for Sr. or himself.

And how do you wish someone a "Sorry for your loss" for their dog, but not their Mom? I know that Sr. REALLY loved that dog, but Jr. seemed to care more for his step-grandmother than Gus.


----------



## Rainy Dave

Conversely, did Sr. reach out to his kids to even tell them about her passing. Sounds like Jr. & Mikey heard about it from their mother.


----------



## bareyb

Rainy Dave said:


> Conversely, did Sr. reach out to his kids to even tell them about her passing. Sounds like Jr. & Mikey heard about it from their mother.


Good point. I'm sure Senior felt like they should have contacted HIM, and that's the Crux of the problem.


----------



## Combat Medic

Frylock said:


> They went to the wake, not the funeral. They really should have attended both.


I think it is a little presumptuous to tell somebody how to grieve and honor a family member's life.


----------



## bareyb

Combat Medic said:


> I think it is a little presumptuous to tell somebody how to grieve and honor a family member's life.


Isn't that essentially what you're doing now? 

Hip. My 2nd favorite type of "ocrisy".


----------



## robbhimself

how many times did mikey's hair/beard change for the 3/19 episode, i lost track


----------



## Combat Medic

bareyb said:


> Isn't that essentially what you're doing now?
> 
> Hip. My 2nd favorite type of "ocrisy".


I'd love for you to explain how I'm doing that.


----------



## tripmac

robbhimself said:


> how many times did mikey's hair/beard change for the 3/19 episode, i lost track


I lost count. Then I thought back to last week?? when he shaved his beard. I bet the production crew cringes everytime they shoot Mikey.


----------



## FiftyoneFifty

inaka said:


> Anytime Senior says "idear" drink.


Anytime a Teutul starts a sentence with 'Yeah, You Know"

I'd be drunk 6 minutes in.


----------



## bareyb

Anyone catch the new PJD Muscle Car Episode? My old "American Chopper" SP picked it up. He customizes a car in it. Kind of a nice change of pace. :up:


----------



## Frylock

bareyb said:


> Anyone catch the new PJD Muscle Car Episode? My old "American Chopper" SP picked it up. He customizes a car in it. Kind of a nice change of pace. :up:


I think it's a good idea for him to branch out. He's clearly enjoying doing designs. Though there is a difference between "building" and "customizing".


----------



## Swirl_Junkie

The panels with the rivets weren't that bad, but GOOD GOD that giant serial number on the trunk and the 35 Paul JR Designs logos/emblems were garish and over the top. 
It's one thing to put your name on there.. it's another to have searchlights and neon and explosions around it.


----------



## inaka

Did this show have a different name or something?
My Tivo didn't pick it up.


----------



## ahartman

inaka said:


> Did this show have a different name or something?
> My Tivo didn't pick it up.


My season pass didn't get it either. It's showing next on 4/2 and 4/3.


----------



## DanB

ahartman said:


> My season pass didn't get it either. It's showing next on 4/2 and 4/3.


My DTivo Series 2 didnt catch it either but my Uverse DVR series record did.

Looks like they took the car to the drag strip after they showed it at bike week. When they do that I'm always asking "why risk it before the unveil?"


----------



## bareyb

I agree about all the PJD logos... Not sure I'd want that on MY car. He should've done something more subtle if he wants to sell 71 of 'em.


----------



## Frylock

I guess he feels 71 people out there really love Paul Jr. 

I think if he can break out of doing bikes, and can do cars, grills, etc.. he could actually keep the business going after the tv show ends. The question will be can he do enough different things. He seems to find an idea he likes and does it. A LOT. How long before he does a web car?


----------



## DanB

Watching them install all those rivets all I could think of was every hole is now a possible leak.

Not sure if I'd consider an aftermarket blower, exhaust, seat covers and those panels really a custom car enough to have all the branding and serial # plate though.


----------



## Swirl_Junkie

I much prefer watching west coast customs make a 69 camaro body fit on a 2011 chasis. That's fabricating.


----------



## bareyb

Jessie James (Monster Garage) is supposedly coming out with a "new" show called "Outlaw Garage". Where they fabricate vehicles... Maybe PJD is hoping to get in on the new trend? 

Seriously though, Custom Bike craze is all but dead now. Ironically, shows like American Chopper helped kill it.


----------



## Frylock

West Coast Customs BUILDS cars. They really customize it. What Paul Jr. did is nothing more than what Joe car guy can do in his garage.

I hope Jesse's new show bombs. Then he can leave town. Because no one wants him here!


----------



## Shogun82

Aside from all the drama. I am a huge fan of the PJD Cadillac bike.


----------



## jeepair

So, Mikey might leave the show and it appears leave the salary he gets too. I'm with Senior, Mikey would be crazy to do that. I sure hope he has made some wise investments with his previous money.

It was interesting to see the gear of wars trike at PJD's shop. Do they clients not want to keep the bikes they order or did PJD purchase it back? 

Also, the ball player mentioned that it was a nice day for April which means that episode was just filmed weeks ago. I didn't know they could film, edit etc that quickly.


----------



## DanB

jeepair said:


> It was interesting to see the gear of wars trike at PJD's shop. Do they clients not want to keep the bikes they order or did PJD purchase it back?


yeah, I've always been confused on this. I've heard that they build two of every custom bike, one for the customer and one for them, but not sure if thats true (never seen it on the show). I'm still wondering how much Discovery channel chips in on each build -- lets face it, except for the publicity from the show during the build, I dont see most of these companies really investing in a bike for their corporate image or advertising campaign. A window company? A pillow company? Really big biker customer base there?


----------



## ahartman

jeepair said:


> Also, the ball player mentioned that it was a nice day for April which means that episode was just filmed weeks ago. I didn't know they could film, edit etc that quickly.


It also listed him as a 'former (or retired?) MLB player' so I looked him up. He was released by the Marlins at the end of March. Pretty quick turnaround.


----------



## Satchel

DanB said:


> yeah, I've always been confused on this. I've heard that they build two of every custom bike, one for the customer and one for them, but not sure if thats true (never seen it on the show). I'm still wondering how much Discovery channel chips in on each build -- lets face it, except for the publicity from the show during the build, I dont see most of these companies really investing in a bike for their corporate image or advertising campaign. A window company? A pillow company? Really big biker customer base there?


I saw a bike they made for the Mercury (Ford) car company at the Dallas Auto Show a few years back. It was on tour with the new cars.


----------



## snowjay

The Rowand bike was once of the nicest riders I've seen yet. Nub and his paint is nothing short of spectacular. Real classy with the thirty three on the side, much better than two dirt bike looking numbers on the tank.


----------



## nataylor

The only thing I didn't like about the Rowand bike were the wheels. They looked great when the bike wasn't moving, but the asymmetrical style looked really odd in motion.


----------



## Frylock

jeepair said:


> So, Mikey might leave the show and it appears leave the salary he gets too. I'm with Senior, Mikey would be crazy to do that. I sure hope he has made some wise investments with his previous money.


I can't see him actually quitting. Or if he does, he will come back. His gallery can't be paying him enough money, and considering his addiction history and going to rehab, that had to make quite a wallop on his bank account. I never got that Mikey was great with money, but hey, you never know.


----------



## nataylor

As they said in the show, Mikey has left before. Maybe taking a break would be healthy for him. I don't blame him for wanting to do something to remove one of the pressures in his life.


----------



## bareyb

snowjay said:


> The Rowand bike was once of the nicest riders I've seen yet. Nub and his paint is nothing short of spectacular. Real classy with the thirty three on the side, much better than two dirt bike looking numbers on the tank.


I just came in to post that too. That's one of my favorite color combinations and I like the lines of this bike SO much more than when they stretch 'em out. I'm kind of "over" the whole Chopper thing myself. I much prefer this style of bike. :up:


----------



## snowjay

It's also great to see Nub and Jr. collaborating. Nub seems to really be enjoying working with Jr. and these bikes, unlike when he painted for OCC.


----------



## Test

Did Mikey say he owned part of some company? What was it? I couldn't make it out.


----------



## snowjay

Test said:


> Did Mikey say he owned part of some company? What was it? I couldn't make it out.


Pasta sauce.

http://www.chefangrymike.com/


----------



## DanB

snowjay said:


> Pasta sauce.
> 
> http://www.chefangrymike.com/


hmmm. seems odd to me at the very least. must have just been an investor as there's nothing about his interest in cooking in his bio. I surely hope he's saved his money.


----------



## bareyb

DanB said:


> hmmm. seems odd to me at the very least. must have just been an investor as there's nothing about his interest in cooking in his bio. I surely hope he's saved his money.


Guys like that never save their money. I don't think he will really quit anyway. I think he just wants attention or possibly more money (although I doubt he's that crafty). At best, he'll leave a for a short while. Maybe they'll use it as cliff hanger for next season.


----------



## Frylock

nataylor said:


> As they said in the show, Mikey has left before. Maybe taking a break would be healthy for him. I don't blame him for wanting to do something to remove one of the pressures in his life.


A break is a good idea. But considering the show is probably the only thing paying his bills, it's not something he should really quit. Unless he wants to get a real job. And I never got the impression he liked to work.


----------



## DanB

what was that? I think Discovery got some $$$ from the Malaysia tourism board for that "show."


----------



## gastrof

Frylock said:


> A break is a good idea. But considering the show is probably the only thing paying his bills, it's not something he should really quit. Unless he wants to get a real job. And I never got the impression he liked to work.


There may have been more truth than joke in him saying to Vinnie "I'll end up sleeping on your sofa."


----------



## nataylor

I think there was a lot of money involved in that bike. They said they had been negotiating over a year to get the design approved.


----------



## snowjay

It did look like a beautiful country. I could of done w/o Pohl and his screeching like a 12 year old every time he saw a monkey.


----------



## Frylock

snowjay said:


> It did look like a beautiful country. I could of done w/o Pohl and his screeching like a 12 year old every time he saw a monkey.


I just was waiting for a monkey to come up and bite him.

And what a moron. He couldn't follow directions (sign below OCC) or even spell his own name!


----------



## inaka

That Malaysia bike was easily the ugliest bike I've ever seen on the show.

It was also a terrible show. Ugly bike, nothing more that paid tourism, that Jason guy from OCC is completely annoying, and even half a world away the guys at OCC still take cheap shots at Paul Jr. (Once when commenting on the horrible welds from the alligator cage one of the OCC guys says that Pauly must have welded it, and then when Sr. was in a dress, Jason asks if that dress is for Pauly or Mikey.) 

Pretty dismal episode all the way around. Argh.


----------



## Test

Frylock said:


> A break is a good idea. But considering the show is probably the only thing paying his bills, it's not something he should really quit. Unless he wants to get a real job. And I never got the impression he liked to work.





gastrof said:


> There may have been more truth than joke in him saying to Vinnie "I'll end up sleeping on your sofa."


Also, when Paul Jr. was telling his wife about it and saying he'll support him. I would imagine they'll have to support him in more ways than one. I'll be that's what the wife was thinking too.


----------



## nataylor

inaka said:


> It was also a terrible show. Ugly bike, nothing more that paid tourism, that Jason guy from OCC is completely annoying, and even half a world away the guys at OCC still take cheap shots at Paul Jr. (Once when commenting on the horrible welds from the alligator cage one of the OCC guys says that Pauly must have welded it, and then when Sr. was in a dress, Jason asks if that dress is for Pauly or Mikey.)


Plus someone made a comment like "that's easier than putting rivets in a Camaro."


----------



## inaka

nataylor said:


> Plus someone made a comment like "that's easier than putting rivets in a Camaro."


Yup.

It's really bizarre the amount of time OCC people spend taking shots at Paul Jr. and his team. How about the entire episode (from the OCC portion of the show) a while back when the OCC crew is building a catapult to launch a mannequin of Paul Jr. into a ditch. Really weird. Sr. can disagree with him, but jeez, he's still your son so you'd think the comments and cheap shots from others would be off limits. Kind of like how a brother can talk smack about his own brother, but when non-family members do it, it crosses a line.

And again, what a horribly ugly Malaysia bike!


----------



## nataylor

inaka said:


> It's really bizarre the amount of time OCC people spend taking shots at Paul Jr. and his team. How about the entire episode (from the OCC portion of the show) a while back when the OCC crew is building a catapult to launch a mannequin of Paul Jr. into a ditch. Really weird. Sr. can disagree with him, but jeez, he's still your son so you'd think the comments and cheap shots from others would be off limits. Kind of like how a brother can talk smack about his own brother, but when non-family members do it, it crosses a line.


If they had a normal relationship, most of the things Senior says would come across as normal ribbing. But Senior just doesn't seem to get that good-natured teasing comes across as total ******baggery when directed at his estranged son.


----------



## snowjay

Frylock said:


> I just was waiting for a monkey to come up and bite him.


I was hoping a monkey would bite him! 



inaka said:


> It was also a terrible show. Ugly bike, nothing more that paid tourism, that Jason guy from OCC is completely annoying, and even half a world away the guys at OCC still take cheap shots at Paul Jr. (Once when commenting on the horrible welds from the alligator cage one of the OCC guys says that Pauly must have welded it, and then when Sr. was in a dress, Jason asks if that dress is for Pauly or Mikey.)





nataylor said:


> Plus someone made a comment like "that's easier than putting rivets in a Camaro."





inaka said:


> Yup.
> 
> It's really bizarre the amount of time OCC people spend taking shots at Paul Jr. and his team. How about the entire episode (from the OCC portion of the show) a while back when the OCC crew is building a catapult to launch a mannequin of Paul Jr. into a ditch. Really weird. Sr. can disagree with him, but jeez, he's still your son so you'd think the comments and cheap shots from others would be off limits. Kind of like how a brother can talk smack about his own brother, but when non-family members do it, it crosses a line.





nataylor said:


> If they had a normal relationship, most of the things Senior says would come across as normal ribbing. But Senior just doesn't seem to get that good-natured teasing comes across as total ******baggery when directed at his estranged son.


I agree with all of the above. I think it was Jim Quinn who commented on the welds and I was like I've never seen him weld a damn thing. If it wasn't for Paulie he likely wouldn't even be working at OCC now.

I think it was Sr. who made the rivet comment... It's just a cheap shot that I really think is out of jealousy. He can't order Paulie around any more and surprise he's still successful. Of course he'll never admit that 95% of his bikes are put together like an erector set, if you want to talk about "easy" tasks.


----------



## WhiskeyTango

DanB said:


> what was that? I think Discovery got some $$$ from the Malaysia tourism board for that "show."


I'm glad I read this comment before watching. I saved myself an hour and just FF thru the whole thing. I think the bike was on screen for, what, maybe 3-5 minutes?


----------



## inaka

WhiskeyTango said:


> I'm glad I read this comment before watching. I saved myself an hour and just FF thru the whole thing. I think the bike was on screen for, what, maybe 3-5 minutes?


If that.

hey show the finished bike before they even head to Malaysia so you can see how bad it is right at the start of the show.


----------



## nataylor

Senior is simply insane. He's said all along he just was to let the past be the past. What's he do when he finally sits down with Junior? Brings up the settlement and wants to go over reruns. 

And Senior still thinks nothing he does towards Junior is bad. He honestly thinks he's said nothing wrong, despite the fact that there is hardly an episode that goes by where he doesn't make some kind of insult towards Junior or his work.


----------



## ncsercs

nataylor said:


> Senior is simply insane. He's said all along he just was to let the past be the past. What's he do when he finally sits down with Junior? Brings up the settlement and wants to go over reruns.
> 
> And Senior still thinks nothing he does towards Junior is bad. He honestly thinks he's said nothing wrong, despite the fact that there is hardly an episode that goes by where he doesn't make some kind of insult towards Junior or his work.


I think this is all being done for the sake of drama. No drama, no ratings.


----------



## nataylor

I think it's pretty clear Junior and Senior really don't get along. They're not that good at acting for this to all be faked.


----------



## bareyb

nataylor said:


> I think it's pretty clear Junior and Senior really don't get along. They're not that good at acting for this to all be faked.


Agreed. I almost wish it _were_ just for drama, but having lived in that type of dysfunction I can tell you for sure, this is the real deal. I doubt they will ever get together until Senior is too old or sick to fight with his kids any more. I don't think they have a prayer as long as the show is on the air either. Some day after it's all over we may hear they finally reconciled. I doubt we'll ever see it on the show at this point.


----------



## jeepair

That meeting was horrible. They should have just met and not talked about the past like I think they both wanted to do but didn't. Should have said lets go to a ball game together and maybe a family picnic etc. Go help build a house for charity or anything where they can get together and build up their relationship a little at a time.

Not sure building a bike together will work because I can see SR yelling about a timeline. lol.


----------



## inaka

Wow that meeting was a total train wreck. First off, nothing says "I care and want to be civil with you" like Senior sitting way back in a chair at the head of the table with his boots up. Nice body language there. 

Seemed every time Junior would start to say something, Senior would cut him off and then go way back to the past, getting more and more angry. Never a good idea.

Building a bike together? Jesus, that's a recipe for disaster. They need to do something together that has nothing to do with bikes. Just like jeepair, said, build a house or volunteer time at the March of Dimes or something, but building a bike? They can't even have a conversation and have opposing _businesses_ against each other building bikes. Building a bike brings up the past like nothing else would. Horrible idea.

Methinks, this will not end well.


----------



## nataylor

And if they build a bike, whose shop would they use? Who would pay for materials and time? I can see Senior getting ticked off if he thinks he put even 1 cent more into the project than Junior did.

They really need an activity where they don't even have to think about bikes of business. A fishing tournament, a pie eating contest... something like that has a much better chance of not ending in flames.


----------



## inaka

I think they should build it at a calm neutral ground...like Jesse James's shop.


----------



## gastrof

Paulie seemed like he's actually starting (starting, mind you...he blew it a couple times) to know how to talk to his father and avoid fighting.

He stopped and held back several times, and it was obvious he was (in his own mind) struggling to find a way to get things back on track before they went thermal.

It may not be quite as bad as it seemed, despite Sr's bellowing, because he did seem to change gears as they were leaving the conference room, and in a pretty "everything's all right" tone asked Paulie if he wanted to look around some (think the building's restaurant was mentioned).

Senior was the one who suggested the joint-build.

If Paulie says "yes", I just wonder if both the OCC and PJD logos will appear on the bike, and if so, whose will go where...


----------



## inaka

gastrof said:


> If Paulie says "yes", I just wonder if both the OCC and PJD logos will appear on the bike, and if so, whose will go where...


Split the difference and make a new logo that's "PO'd!"


----------



## snowjay

I say no way in hell Jr does a bike with Sr, at least not right now. That's where they came from and he doesn't want to go back to that. I agree they need to do something unrelated to the business.


----------



## dilbert27

Maybe the could both build a custom Camaro together!


----------



## inaka

The more I think about it, the more I think building anything is a recipe for disaster.
They should just volunteer time at a charity like a soup kitchen, or go fishing, or something totally unrelated to building anything. When you build, there are decisions to be made, and I don't see Senior doing well with any decision he doesn't agree with, even on a charity bike or T-shirt design for that matter.


----------



## Frylock

That meeting was awful, but Jr. certainly didn't step up to take any of the blame. Sr. apologized (though not very well), but I didn't see Jr. apologize for any of his actions. Also calling Sr. out for badmouthing him (which he did) and then saying that he didn't badmouth Sr, but just said "the truth" was not going to help anything. The two seem more interested in pushing each other's buttons than anything else.

It really did seem like they are on the same page, but don't know it. I think Jr. just meant let's start being civil to one another, and be friendly and not badmouth each other, when he said he wanted a "business" relationship. Instead of explaining that though, and Sr. saying that that's what he meant by father-son relationship, and when he heard "business", he thought Paulie meant "motorcycle business". The two of them really need to sit down with a therapist or some other 3rd party. I think the cameras were a bad idea, and I think that their inability to communicate doesn't help. They will never get their on their own.

Building a bike is an awful idea. Go build something else, completely unrelated. A habitat house sounds like a great idea. Or go fishing. Anything but bikes! Then again, if they went fishing, they may try and throw one another out of the boat.

I wonder how long Mikey will be off the show. He's got to need money at some point!


----------



## snowjay

inaka said:


> The more I think about it, the more I think building anything is a recipe for disaster.
> They should just volunteer time at a charity like a soup kitchen, or go fishing, or something totally unrelated to building anything. When you build, there are decisions to be made, and I don't see Senior doing well with any decision he doesn't agree with, even on a charity bike or T-shirt design for that matter.


I agree. About the only thing they could build is a Habitat house where they don't make any of the decisions and are just the hired labor.


----------



## inaka

Although for pure TV entertainment, it would actually be fun to watch a full blown fist fight break out between Senior & Jr. at a Build-A-Bear Workshop.


----------



## Gerryex

I've been watching this show for many years and I've seen every single episode from when JR was fired to the current episodes. Through all those episodes JR never said ANYTHING derogatory about SR or OCC. But on the other hand SR many times had nothing but mean comments about JR and his future business. In fact there have been many discussions on this board about SR essentially changing history by saying that JR had nothing to do with the design of any of the bikes and the all of the design was done by Jason. If any of you have a newspaper that follows Politi-Fact, SR's comments about JR over these last few years would have been rated: Pants On Fire false!

The meeting went very poorly and as other posts noted all SR was doing was bringing up the past which was not what he said he wanted to do. Also, as another post noted they need to meet with a theraprist off camera if they ever want to move forward with any kind of relationship.

Gerry


----------



## Malcontent

Gerryex said:


> I've been watching this show for many years and I've seen every single episode from when JR was fired to the current episodes. Through all those episodes JR never said ANYTHING derogatory about SR or OCC. But on the other hand SR many times had nothing but mean comments about JR and his future business. In fact there have been many discussions on this board about SR essentially changing history by saying that JR had nothing to do with the design of any of the bikes and the all of the design was done by Jason.
> 
> Gerry


I recall Sr. actively trying to sabotage Jr. by getting venders/suppliers not to do business with Jr. Sr. tried stealing employees (guy from Southern Chopper).

One of the saddest things was when Sr. said that Junior's creativity/designs had no part in the success of OCC. None at all. It was Senior's hard work alone that made OCC a success.

Jason draws pretty pictures on his computer and the fabricators have tell him what is possible in the real world. I remember Rick and Mike getting pissed because Jason was designing bikes that could only be "built" in video games. Jason was basically printing a pretty picture of a bike and handing it to the fabricators. Jason has no fabricating experience/knowlege or mechanical ability. OCC "discovered" him when he was working on an OCC video game for a game company.


----------



## bareyb

Boy was that meeting De Ja Vu or what? Those two get caught up in Semantics way too much, and I think Junior (in these situations) is purposefully obtuse. I think he knew what Senior meant by a "business relationship". He meant keep it civil and don't "go there" with all the family crap and the past. Which is essentially what Paulie wanted too. They aren't that far apart if they could get over trying to "win". 

So there they are arguing about what "business relationship" means and in the meantime Junior and Senior are falling back into their familiar roles of both wanting to make the other "wrong". It's a shame, but it's all too common. 

Those two building a bike would be a huge mistake at this point, and the only reason I can even imagine why Sr. suggested it was for the ratings. The show is clearly in the way of those two, but neither wants to give up the fame or the paycheck. Either way, I don't see Paulie agreeing to it. 

I think what they should do is go have lunch and STFU about anything but the weather. Do that a couple of times and see where it goes. All this trying to come out on top in the public eye is a recipe for disaster.


----------



## gastrof

bareyb said:


> Boy was that meeting De Ja Vu or what? Those two get caught up in Semantics way too much, and I think Junior (in these situations) is purposefully obtuse. I think he knew what Senior meant by a "business relationship". He meant keep it civil and don't "go there" with all the family crap and the past...


You've lost your way a bit.

Paulie heard, after the camera-less meeting, that Sr. had gotten the idea that all PAULIE wanted was "a business relationship", and Paulie wanted him to know that wasn't the case.


----------



## gastrof

inaka said:


> Split the difference and make a new logo that's "PO'd!"


Or maybe something like this-










Paulie designed the OCC logo, drawing it while sitting on their cellar floor one night a LONG time ago...and now is totally disconnected from it.

Too bad he can't use the above.


----------



## bareyb

gastrof said:


> You've lost your way a bit.
> 
> Paulie heard, after the camera-less meeting, that Sr. had gotten the idea that all PAULIE wanted was "a business relationship", and Paulie wanted him to know that wasn't the case.


Right. Which was my point. By "business" Sr. meant the show and the opposing teams etc. _That_ business. Obviously they weren't going to have a real business relationship outside the show and I don't believe Paulie really thought that. I think Paulie was more intent on making Sr. wrong than actually trying to resolve anything in that meeting. It was like a time warp where absolutely _nothing_ had changed... I'm not saying Paulie's the villain here, Sr. clearly blew it worse than he did, but Paulie could have done better too I feel.


----------



## gastrof

Paul Jr. said he was meeting with his father to make sure there was no misunderstanding about the "business" thing. Of course he was trying to show Sr. he was "wrong"...

As in "mistaken".

If someone claims you said something you never said, wouldn't you want to speak up and say "No I didn't. Things aren't that way at all"? Especially if the misunderstanding involves your relationship with that person?

You're being unfair to Paulie.

___________________
Touch the baseball cap and ride your truck.


----------



## bareyb

gastrof said:


> Paul Jr. said he was meeting with his father to make sure there was no misunderstanding about the "business" thing. Of course he was trying to show Sr. he was "wrong"...
> 
> As in "mistaken".
> 
> If someone claims you said something you never said, wouldn't you want to speak up and say "No I didn't. Things aren't that way at all"? Especially if the misunderstanding involves your relationship with that person?
> 
> *You're being unfair to Paulie.*
> 
> ___________________
> Touch the baseball cap and ride your truck.


I AM Paulie. Believe me I know how this guy thinks... 

ETA: But I am open to the possibility that I'm wrong.


----------



## Frylock

What's funny is how mellow Sr. is not around Paulie. He was mellow on the Celebrity Apprentice. It seems that his kids just get him riled up.


----------



## inaka

Frylock said:


> What's funny is how mellow Sr. is not around Paulie. He was mellow on the Celebrity Apprentice. It seems that his kids just get him riled up.


Probably because when he's not around Paulie, he's the boss at work, so people don't call him out on b.s. His kids know better.


----------



## bareyb

Even though I give Paulie a little guff for the problems it's still 90% Senior. He's a control freak and a victim. The Show is completely in the way of those two. 

Senior is still focused on OCC as a business and the TV Show is the catalyst to keep all that going. Once the show is off the air for a couple of years I have a feeling we'll find out Senior sold out or simply closed the doors. OCC is not a quality brand, it's just famous brand. I wouldn't trust any of their stuff under me...


----------



## inaka

bareyb, you could be right in that Sr. could be making more $$$ off the OCC brand alone, more so than building bikes, etc. 

Did you guys see when Paulie headed into OCC how MASSIVE that store was selling all the assorted OCC tchotchkes? Jeez.

I know we've seen the OCC store on past shows, but I remember watching the latest episode and thinking what a joke those little inflatable Paul Sr. toys are, etc.


----------



## snowjay

All their money has come from merchandising, that is no secret.


----------



## inaka

News to me.

I thought they did custom bikes but also made a lot of money creating far less "custom" bikes you could buy off-the-shelf so-to-speak.


----------



## snowjay

inaka said:


> News to me.
> 
> I thought they did custom bikes but also made a lot of money creating far less "custom" bikes you could buy off-the-shelf so-to-speak.


They have a production line of bikes, but didn't start those until 2007, a year before they moved into the building they are in now.

I can't find the article right now but they reported something like 60%+ of their revenue was from merchandise sales and bike sales were a portion of the remainder.

I heard back in the day from people who know them that it may have even been more merch sales than that.


----------



## bareyb

snowjay said:


> They have a production line of bikes, but didn't start those until 2007, a year before they moved into the building they are in now.
> 
> I can't find the article right now but they reported something like 60%+ of their revenue was from merchandise sales and bike sales were a portion of the remainder.
> 
> I heard back in the day from people who know them that it may have even been more merch sales than that.


I wouldn't be surprised. For a long time while when the show was in it's hey day you could buy OCC Merch at major retailers. You KNOW that's gotta add up to some cash...


----------



## snowjay

I have an original OCC hat around here. Black with the red/white OCC logo like Paulie used to wear.


----------



## Frylock

To be fair, I am sure that Harley Davidson also makes a lot more money off merchandise than their bikes. So it's not unique. It's good business.


----------



## Frylock

I also have a personal story about the family. My Dad took my sister to DC the year before he died to ride in the big bike race down there. They brought him (my Dad) over to meet the OCC guys (Sr., Jr. and Mikey) since he had cancer, and it was a nice gesture. Sr. was the only one who got out of their RV to say hello, take a photo, and chat. Mikey and Jr. were too lazy and didn't want to get up. 

So while Sr. definitely has issues with his kids, to me, he's more of a class act outside of the show than the other ones are.

As for the comment about no one talking back to Sr. about the bikes, who talks back to their boss? They just do the work. If Paulie talked back less to his boss, they would fight less. And what about Celebrity Apprentice? He was one of the cool and calm ones. he could have been belligerent. He had no connection to those people. Instead he raised a ton of money for charity, did what was asked of him, and just played it cool.


----------



## inaka

Frylock said:


> As for the comment about no one talking back to Sr. about the bikes, who talks back to their boss? They just do the work. If Paulie talked back less to his boss, they would fight less. And what about Celebrity Apprentice? He was one of the cool and calm ones. he could have been belligerent. He had no connection to those people. Instead he raised a ton of money for charity, did what was asked of him, and just played it cool.


Senior is a jerk. There were countless fights Senior would go ballistic and Paulie didn't even say a word. There would be some issue about a bike, and as senior started explaining it, he would then start in completely unrelated about past stuff how Paulie doesn't do anything around the shop, is late, blah, blah, blah, and before his sentence was done he was already at DEFCON 1 with the veins bulging out in his neck, before Paulie could even get a word in.
I'm actually really surprised at the amount of restraint Jr. has shown throughout much of this show's run.

As for the Apprentice, ever think that maybe the Senior vs. Junior show showed what a real jerk Senior was, and that his purpose for going on the the Celebrity Apprentice was part charity and part rebuilding his public image? That's why he was so calm on-screen. Don't forget, after the live build-off taping, Senior was boooed pretty badly by the fans in Vegas, and his son kicked his butt in two build-offs. If he makes most of his money by the OCC brand, then his brand was taking a serious hit. The Apprentice is a way to rebuild that brand. That's actually smart business. Image building is a big reason why these B-list celebs go on the Celebrity Apprentice in the first place.


----------



## Frylock

The build off was a joke to be fair. It was a personality contest above all else. And don't get me wrong. Jr. is a much better designer than Poole is. I never thought that Paulie couldn't design.

As for Sr. flipping out all the time, did you ever consider it was justified? If an employee of yours acts like a prima donna, comes and goes as he pleases, and doesn't really act like a business owner, what do you expect?


----------



## tripmac

I started watching this show because of the bike designs. What kept me watching was the family dynamics. I worked for a company for a number of years where I was working for a father son team. One day things were great and the next things were horrible and the son could do no right. It was like I was living the like of an OCC employee. Granted by boss never bought a new building and decided to drive his truck thru his old offices, but just about. Lord knows you did not want to go fishing with my boss, is was worse than work.

I do think Jr has to share a little blame, but I will say that 90% is on Sr.


----------



## inaka

Frylock said:


> The build off was a joke to be fair. It was a personality contest above all else. And don't get me wrong. Jr. is a much better designer than Poole is. I never thought that Paulie couldn't design.
> 
> As for Sr. flipping out all the time, did you ever consider it was justified? If an employee of yours acts like a prima donna, comes and goes as he pleases, and doesn't really act like a business owner, what do you expect?


The Cadillac build off definitely wasn't a joke. 
Both teams got access to the same set of resources from Cadillac, and if anything, OCC has much more staff and advanced in-house tools at their disposal.

The way Sr. argues, nothing justifies that. If you want to play by the rules of Jr. being unprofessional in the workplace, then did the way Senior handled things seem professional? LOL I'm not saying Junior was an angel, and I'm sure he did stroll in late, etc., but jeez, Senior would berate him even before deadlines were passed, just yelling to yell for the cameras.

There's a reason why virtually everyone but Rick jumped boat and worked for Junior. Heck, even Nub paints for Jr and not Senior anymore. That has to say something about the way Senior handles himself in business.


----------



## Frylock

inaka said:


> The Cadillac build off definitely wasn't a joke.
> Both teams got access to the same set of resources from Cadillac, and if anything, OCC has much more staff and advanced in-house tools at their disposal.


Sorry, I thought you meant the second build-off with Jesse James. And there I was referring to the popularity of Jr vs. Sr.

Again, I am not arguing that Sr. is a better bike builder. I am also not saying he's a peach. I am just saying that calling Sr. the one at fault, and no one else is is not something I personally agree with.



inaka said:


> The way Sr. argues, nothing justifies that. If you want to play by the rules of Jr. being unprofessional in the workplace, then did the way Senior handled things seem professional? LOL I'm not saying Junior was an angel, and I'm sure he did stroll in late, etc., but jeez, Senior would berate him even before deadlines were passed, just yelling to yell for the cameras.
> 
> There's a reason why virtually everyone but Rick jumped boat and worked for Junior. Heck, even Nub paints for Jr and not Senior anymore. That has to say something about the way Senior handles himself in business.


I never said Sr. was professional. You're misunderstanding me. Sr did a LOT of things wrong. I am just saying that Jr. was equally at fault. To me its a 50-50 issue.

Everyone jumped ship? I could 2, Vinnie and Cody. The other guy they have is someone OCC fired. Vinnie had already quit OCC, and so had Cody. So it's not like they left Sr. to go with Jr. They work part-time with Jr, and do their V-Force Custom things.

And when was the last time that OCC used Nub as a painter? It's been years. And why would they use Nub? They have an in-house painter.


----------



## nataylor

Just a bump since new episodes start tonight. The show is back to being called just "American Chopper" in the guide data, so check your season passes!


----------



## Test

nataylor said:


> Just a bump since new episodes start tonight. *The show is back to being called just "American Chopper" in the guide data*, so check your season passes!


Ridiculous


----------



## nataylor

Test said:


> Ridiculous


It's true:


----------



## windracer

nataylor said:


> Just a bump since new episodes start tonight. The show is back to being called just "American Chopper" in the guide data, so check your season passes!


Arrrgh! Thanks for the update. I'm going to cross-post this in the Season Pass alerts area as well.


----------



## bareyb

Totally forgot and I'm out of town... Just set up the SP from TiVo.com. :up:



> Hello,
> 
> Your online request for a Season Pass to "American Chopper" has been received.
> 
> All upcoming episodes of this Season Pass have been scheduled and now appear in the To Do List.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> TiVo
> http://www.tivo.com/support/
> 
> **********
> If you need to re-request this program, be sure to change at least one recording option so it will be recognized as a new request by your TiVo DVR.
> 
> **********
> Note: This is an automatically generated e-mail notification. Please do not reply to this message if you need help; instead, please visit http://www.tivo.com/support/


----------



## windracer

So I went to watch the 2-hour "The Meeting (Uncut)" episode and found it was just a repeat of the Skil Saw/Italian sports car episodes. The only difference I saw was some "bonus footage" of the meeting near the end and some Twitter commentary.

Additionally, the meeting portion of the episode was about 10 minutes and the overlay graphic said the meeting took 45 minutes, so I don't really call that "uncut."

I'm also a little confused on the timings of these episodes. In the new one (Geico military bike/Cafe bike) they show the OCC crew starting demolition for the restaurant ... but at the end of the big meeting from last season, Sr asks Jr if he wants to see the restaurant and Jr just chuckles and says "maybe next time."


----------



## windracer

Seems a little weird that Senior and Junior go and build that bike together, and then Senior takes it into OCC to have Rick break down and weld up. Shouldn't they still be doing all of that together? Senior talks about getting a "neutral party" to do the paint but is still using OCC ...

The Looper bike was sick. The things Vinnie can make on the waterjet are amazing (the sprockets).


----------



## snowjay

I'd say Rick is a neutral party. They probably could of finished it up themselves but that is a pretty tedious part and I think Rick is a better finish welder than either of them at this point since they haven't done it in a very long time (at least on camera).


----------



## inaka

Yeah, the bike itself was just the catalyst for both of them to have a reason to get together without killing each other. Now that the ground work has been laid, they'll maybe just BBQ or go fishing or something, so the bike is almost an afterthought. 

I know they mentioned something about giving the bike to charity, but that would be a classy move if Senior gives Jr. the bike when they're done since they had to sell Jr's original bike to keep the business going when they first started out. We'll see.


----------



## Gerryex

JR is crazy to start up a business project with SR! JR did mention that its been several months since things have gotten better with his Dad and they did complete the bike they were building together very successfully. But it was always business dealings where they would argue. At their last sit down meeting JR expressed his desire to be the main driver with the design while OCC would do the multiple fabrications, and SR seemed to be OK with that. But then JR it seems was out of town for a while and SR says that he's impatient to start the project and was going to jump in and have Jason do some preliminary stuff on the design. I'm sure JR is going to have a problem with that! And what is SR's big rush? He already said they were very busy with other projects so why introduce yet another. I also think SR's ego is getting in the way to make his team be more involved in the design than JR wanted them to be.

We'll never know how much of this stuff is scripted, but I hope none of this causes another family problem between JR and SR!!

Gerry


----------



## nataylor

Totally agree. Junior shouldn't have any business dealings with Senior at all. If they want to build the occasional bike together for charity or something, that's cool. But to go in together on a production bike is insane.


----------



## bareyb

I was wondering if anyone would revive this thread over this. All I can say is, whatever happens they deserve it. First off, if I were Senior I would never have accepted the deal. He's an idiot to think that anything has really changed and I think Junior just wants to get another one of his designs out there making him money. It's been the money all along that's been the wedge between these two. Well that, and the fact that Senior has the patience of a 2 year old. 

I think it's insane. First of all, it sounds to me like Jr. wants to design the bike and have OCC fabricate it for them. PJD gets all the credit and OCC simply does the grunt work and markets it for them. Then he sits back and collects the money? Nice work if you can get it... 

Seems like that's a much better deal for PJD. Of course, as we've already seen, Senior's ego isn't going to allow that. Senior also needs to work on his patience. He needs to remember what's really important. Personally I think they should both just scrap the whole idea...


----------



## SeanC

I just wanted to pop in and say I stopped watching a few weeks ago and just deleted my SP.

I used to really love this show, and Mikey was a big part of that. I think the breakup and the pushing Mike outta OCC really ruined things for me. And now I can't really tell what is scripted and what isn't. I mean, to me it feels like the whole show is fully scripted now.

I loved Monster Garage in it's day. I still think it's the best car/bike building show that has ever been on.

Now all I have is Gas Monkey Garage, which is pretty good actually.


----------



## bareyb

SeanC said:


> I just wanted to pop in and say I stopped watching a few weeks ago and just deleted my SP.
> 
> I used to really love this show, and Mikey was a big part of that. I think the breakup and the pushing Mike outta OCC really ruined things for me. And now I can't really tell what is scripted and what isn't. I mean, to me it feels like the whole show is fully scripted now.
> 
> I loved Monster Garage in it's day. I still think it's the best car/bike building show that has ever been on.
> 
> Now all I have is Gas Monkey Garage, which is pretty good actually.


From the previews it looks like Mikey may be coming back into the show at least, but I agree with you. I have a bad feeling this new company was designed to get those two fighting again. Which I guess is what they think people want to see. Don't they know that the only people still watching are the diehard fans that just want to see an reasonable dignified end to the show? I was hoping they'd patch it up and meet for BBQ's and leave it at that. 

Also... Jesse James has a new show out this week where he builds Hot Rods. I think it was called "Jesse James: Outlaw Garage". Not bad... You may want to look that up if you're a JJ fan.


----------



## inaka

I've always been in the Jr. camp, and think Sr.'s been pretty much been a complete jerk last season. But this season? Why the heck would Jr. want to team up in business with his father?? Answer is only: $$$$

Of all the people out there to do business with, he selects for his first design project to work with OCC, and then to work on a production bike with them? Recipe for disaster.

If you want to keep the good vibes going with his dad after their single bike build at Sr.'s place, just make a weekly fishing trip, or a weekly BBQ or something.

These guys should never work together ever again.


----------



## SeanC

bareyb said:


> Also... Jesse James has a new show out this week where he builds Hot Rods. I think it was called "Jesse James: Outlaw Garage". Not bad... You may want to look that up if you're a JJ fan.


Ah, I KNEW there was a reason I posted random crap at TCF! I did not know about his new show, SP set. TYVM.


----------



## bareyb

inaka said:


> I've always been in the Jr. camp, and think Sr.'s been pretty much been a complete jerk last season. But this season? Why the heck would Jr. want to team up in business with his father?? Answer is only: $$$$
> 
> Of all the people out there to do business with, he selects for his first design project to work with OCC, and then to work on a production bike with them? Recipe for disaster.
> 
> If you want to keep the good vibes going with his dad after their single bike build at Sr.'s place, just make a weekly fishing trip, or a weekly BBQ or something.
> 
> These guys should never work together ever again.


Agreed. Every aspect of this misguided fiasco is about MONEY. Number one reason families divide.


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

Bad idear. Very bad idear.


----------



## innocentfreak

Sr is nuts. 

Yeah I don't get the production bike angle. It doesn't make sense to me. Also why not do two versions of the same bike? They could agree on the majority of parts, but then do their own design on the rest of the parts so you offer a Sr and Jr edition.


----------



## bareyb

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> Bad idear. Very bad idear.


For the win... :up:


----------



## WhiskeyTango

I haven't watched this episode yet and I'm not sure I want to. Leading up to this point, I thought they would mend the relationship and end the show on a good note. If they are pushing for more drama and fighting, then I'm not really interested. I think I'll wait another week or two so see what direction this is going before I decide whether or not to stay with it.


----------



## bareyb

WhiskeyTango said:


> I haven't watched this episode yet and I'm not sure I want to. Leading up to this point, I thought they would mend the relationship and end the show on a good note. If they are pushing for more drama and fighting, then I'm not really interested. I think I'll wait another week or two so see what direction this is going before I decide whether or not to stay with it.


Very similar to my feelings. I have zero interest in seeing those two go back to their old ways. I'm with you, I wanted to see them patch it up, start hanging out together outside of work, and move on. I think the production bike probably won't sell very well either. It's tainted with stupidity.


----------



## Gerryex

From the synopsis for Monday's episode:



Spoiler



"The new company isn't making any progress, so Senior decides to jump-start things without Junior's approval."



Are they so stupid to start all the business related arguing all over again? Especially when so much progress has been made in their personal relationships. Or is this all scripted to have more people watch the show?

Gerry


----------



## inaka

Anyone else think it's incredibly hypocritical that the folks at OCC bash Jr for not having premade designs and drawings and essentially designing bikes on the lift, and yet in that exact same episode OCC designed a sport bike on the lift with no premade designs or drawings? 

Also, that Jason guy at OCC is a joke. Completely unprofessional, and knowing the history between Jr and his dad, he needs to just play it straight and be professional, or STFU. Man that guy gets on my nerves.


----------



## snowjay

They had a concept drawing for the sport bike, but no real "designs". I could of drawn a generic looking bike on napkin and it would of been as helpful.


----------



## bareyb

inaka said:


> Anyone else think it's incredibly hypocritical that the folks at OCC bash Jr for not having premade designs and drawings and essentially designing bikes on the lift, and yet in that exact same episode OCC designed a sport bike on the lift with no premade designs or drawings?
> 
> Also, that Jason guy at OCC is a joke. Completely unprofessional, and knowing the history between Jr and his dad, he needs to just play it straight and be professional, or STFU. Man that guy gets on my nerves.


Jason's letting his ego get in the way. He's also doing what he thinks Senior wants. For YEARS it was fair game to case on Paulie and Jason just hasn't gotten the memo yet. I think Senior still kind of likes it when people bash PJ anyway... There hasn't been THAT much healing... I can certainly see they still push the same buttons on each other. 

Did I mention that this whole Production Bike is a monumental mistake? Talk about not learning from one's mistakes...


----------



## WhiskeyTango

They are doing another live build off on December 10-11. Sr., Jr., Jesse James, and two guys from Fast & Loud.


----------



## Gerryex

We'll never know how much of the show is scripted but here's one example of what I think was scripted.

In this last episode, JR was supposed to go out to the playground company to finalize the building of the themed palyground. But JR couldn't make it so he asked Mikey to go instead which he agreed to do. So Mikey gets there and all he does was help put the thing together. ANYONE (I repeat - ANYONE) could have done that. It was strictly a manual labor job and required no knowledge of the theme background or mechanics. In fact Mikey complained to the camera that he didn't think he would have to do so much manual labor!

So why on earth did anyone from PJD have to go out for that final build. Certainly they should be there for the playground convention but Mikey going there (or JR, if he had gone) was strictly for the show which means it was scripted!!

As far as the production bike I've said all along that it was a dumb idea and could seriously derail the rebuilt personal relationship between JR and SR. And what's also puzzling is they keep talking about a new company to build the production bike. WHY??!! Companies have done joint ventures in the past without making a new company so why bother to do that. Just do the joint project and if sucsessful then do another. If not then move on.

Gerry


----------



## snowjay

I think SR is the only one saying something about a new company, I don't think JR has ever said that and even Rachel said "designed by PJD, built by OCC".


----------



## inaka

Gerryex said:


> We'll never know how much of the show is scripted but here's one example of what I think was scripted.
> 
> In this last episode, JR was supposed to go out to the playground company to finalize the building of the themed palyground. But JR couldn't make it so he asked Mikey to go instead which he agreed to do. So Mikey gets there and all he does was help put the thing together. ANYONE (I repeat - ANYONE) could have done that. It was strictly a manual labor job and required no knowledge of the theme background or mechanics. In fact Mikey complained to the camera that he didn't think he would have to do so much manual labor!
> 
> So why on earth did anyone from PJD have to go out for that final build. Certainly they should be there for the playground convention but Mikey going there (or JR, if he had gone) was strictly for the show which means it was scripted!!
> 
> As far as the production bike I've said all along that it was a dumb idea and could seriously derail the rebuilt personal relationship between JR and SR. And what's also puzzling is they keep talking about a new company to build the production bike. WHY??!! Companies have done joint ventures in the past without making a new company so why bother to do that. Just do the joint project and if sucsessful then do another. If not then move on.
> 
> Gerry


I totally see what you're saying. Very possible. However, one thing could have been that PJD never got to see the final product and since it was such a new venture for them, perhaps Jr. wanted to see this before the unveil to make sure it would work for his brand/business. Since he couldn't make it himself, he would send Mikey and then Mikey could relay back to him, "Hey man, this thing is a piece of crap. You really need to talk to these guys. You don't want your brand to be a part of this." etc. is that were the case. Meaning, Jr. would need someone he trusted to check out the design and implementation, and so he trusted Mikey with that responsibility.

That said, I fully agree about the production bike. What a horrible idea on so many levels. Yeah, i heard that reference about building a new company for this. They likely did this to shield themselves from liability. If they build a piece of crap, or if someone dies due to the build quality or design, they'll have that new LLC responsible for any liability and if they get sued, OCC and PJD are safe, and they could sue this new entity into oblivion/bankruptcy and it wouldn't really change their core businesses. It's a smart business move in general, and a completely STUPID idea for these two guys in particular. They should never do business again. Ever. Just realize that business isn't their thing and they need to focus on hanging out, BBQs with their wives, bingo, fishing, ANYTHING but business.


----------



## inaka

There was a scene in last night's show that was 100% scripted to me, or at the very least, a pre-planned fake conversation, where Senior is given talking points to hit.

They showed Senior on the phone making a call to the Executive Producer (who just happens to have a camera on him LOL) and then Senior comes up with some conversation saying HE wants to have another bike build-off, because he's been thinking about the vehicle they built last time, and now they're ready to build a bike. The Executive Producer acts like this is the first time the build off idea has been proposed, even faking an entire, "Hey, you know what else might be a good idea, we could ask the guys from Fast & Loud if they want to do it." Then he goes on to say that the Executive Producer needs to first ask Jr., then call Discovery, etc.

Total b.s.!

You know that Discovery had this entire event pre-planned months ago, and they use it like History Channel does with Pawn Stars/American Pickers/American Restoration to cross-pollinate their shows, and create a new hit with Fast & Loud, etc. This build-off wasn't Senior's idea and it sure as heck didn't happen over that phone conversation like they showed. :down:


----------



## nataylor

I could see the build-off idea coming from Senior. He probably thinks they can win, too.

But yes, of course that segment was planned ahead of time. Just think of it as self-promoting product placement for Discovery.


----------



## Malcontent

inaka said:


> They showed Senior on the phone making a call to the Executive Producer (who just happens to have a camera on him LOL) and then Senior comes up with some conversation saying HE wants to have another bike build-off, because he's been thinking about the vehicle they built last time, and now they're ready to build a bike. The Executive Producer acts like this is the first time the build off idea has been proposed, even faking an entire, "Hey, you know what else might be a good idea, we could ask the guys from Fast & Loud if they want to do it." Then he goes on to say that the Executive Producer needs to first ask Jr., then call Discovery, etc.


A similar scene happened on this weeks episode of Jesse James show. Producer calls Jesse and tells him that Sr. wants to do another build off.

Spoiler from the latest episode of the Jesse James show (11-12-12):



Spoiler



Jesse builds a hot rod for Paul Sr. Seniors identity was kept a secret for awhile.


----------



## windracer

I enjoyed the trash-talking between the Fast & Loud guys, Jesse, and the rest. Although as usual Jason is too over-the-top.

The production bike is doomed to fail ... I can't see this working out for either OCC or PJD. Vinnie is right to stay away ...


----------



## EvilMidniteBombr

What's the over/under on the number of episodes before Jr & Sr are yelling at each other again?


----------



## bareyb

windracer said:


> I enjoyed the trash-talking between the Fast & Loud guys, Jesse, and the rest. Although as usual Jason is too over-the-top.
> 
> The production bike is doomed to fail ... I can't see this working out for either OCC or PJD. Vinnie is right to stay away ...


Agreed. I hope they figure that out sooner than later and scrap the whole idea... Of course that would mean possibly giving up a few $$$ so....



EvilMidniteBombr said:


> What's the over/under on the number of episodes before Jr & Sr are yelling at each other again?


I'll go with "1". I bet by the next episode they are either at each other's throats again, or they call off the whole idea. Wouldn't it be refreshing if that happened? That they put their relationship above the show?


----------



## Gerryex

bareyb said:


> I bet by the next episode they are either at each other's throats again, or they call off the whole idea. Wouldn't it be refreshing if that happened? That they put their relationship above the show?


Didn't JR already say at the end of the last episode that he was getting some bad feelings about the interaction so far and is having second thoughts about it. If he's smart he should call SR and tell him that he doesn't want to jeopardize the personal relationship they were just rebuilding and just kill the joint production bike. End of story!

Gerry


----------



## snowjay

I think JR will probably pull the plug on the idea. If they don't scratch the idea, the biggest difference right now is the frame, hard or soft tail. IMHO, they should build the same bike with both frames. Sure not everything will be the same but it would allow each of them to have some say in the design. 

When I first heard about the production bike I thought they would just manufacture the one they built themselves with a few minor tweaks... I don't understand why they want to start from scratch.


----------



## bareyb

The whole thing is money driven and if there's one thing that can destroy a family it's $$$. The last thing these two need is to work together again. Especially in the same exact _way_ they did it before! I think if Jr. really had done design at his shop and Senior did the fab at his, it may have had a chance... The way it's turning out is something completely different and very familiar. I don't think they know any other way.


----------



## snowjay

Paul Jr just tweeted:



> AC is ending after a ten year run but PJD is just getting started! Thanks to everyone who made this show a success. Time for something new!


----------



## innocentfreak

The build-off show is supposed to be the series finale.


----------



## nataylor

Huh. Can't image this is what Junior or Senior want as the show is a huge bit of free publicity.


----------



## bareyb

nataylor said:


> Huh. Can't image this is what Junior or Senior want as the show is a huge bit of free publicity.


You can bet your life they don't want this. I mean, let's get real. If it weren't for the show, neither of them would have a business. At least not the business they have now. I've always said, once the show is off the air, that will mark the end of OCC the company.

Senior will end up selling the rights to the name at some point I'll bet. PJD? It sounds like he's hinting at getting another show of his own, but it's hard to say. If there is no new show for Paulie, then he's gonna have about as much success as Vinnie has had with VForce. Which is to say, not much.


----------



## Test

Didn't this show end before only to be brought back on a different channel with a slightly different name?


----------



## inaka

Test said:


> Didn't this show end before only to be brought back on a different channel with a slightly different name?


Yeah, I was on the TLC for a long time, then moved to Discovery with and the series was technically Jr. vs. Senior.

Maybe they each will get separate shows?
Seems like Discovery has quite a bit of automotive and bike shows, including and entire channel, Velocity. Seems to me they'll just make two separate series runs, one called PJD Designs, and the other called Orange County Choppers.


----------



## bareyb

inaka said:


> Yeah, I was on the TLC for a long time, then moved to Discovery with and the series was technically Jr. vs. Senior.
> 
> Maybe they each will get separate shows?
> Seems like Discovery has quite a bit of automotive and bike shows, including and entire channel, Velocity. Seems to me they'll just make two separate series runs, one called PJD Designs, and the other called Orange County Choppers.


I'd probably watch both.


----------



## inaka

Me too. 
Although my favorite car shows are Wheeler Dealers and Chasing Classic Cars. 
No family drama in those shows. Whew.


----------



## Swirl_Junkie

Those are my favorites too.


----------



## windracer

Fast turnaround on the latest episode with the 9/11 Memorial Bike and Hurricane Sandy.

And what's with Paul Jr. bringing in people to design t-shirts for him. Isn't he running a _design_ shop?


----------



## inaka

windracer said:


> And what's with Paul Jr. bringing in people to design t-shirts for him. Isn't he running a _design_ shop?


Maybe it's a simple license deal with them, where they create and make all of the items, he approves them and get's a royalty.


----------



## bareyb

inaka said:


> Maybe it's a simple license deal with them, where they create and make all of the items, he approves them and get's a royalty.


I think that's exactly what it is. Same goes for the Playground stuff.


----------



## inaka

It's a smart business move. No risk for him, and it's just a check in the mail, based on his PJD brand. Then hope the brand works to where he can license it out for more junk like a video game, cafe, etc. like OCC. Just following his dad's business model on a more streamlined scale.

That t-shirt business venture sounds WAY more intelligent than starting a new production bike business with his father, or doing a video creative business, etc.


----------



## innocentfreak

I don't know who is more nuts. Sr or Jason.


----------



## inaka

I'd love to see that slob Jason get his ass handed to him without Sr. around.


----------



## snowjay

innocentfreak said:


> I don't know who is more nuts. Sr or Jason.


Jason w/o a doubt.


----------



## DLL66

Jason is trying to get his digs in. He thinks he is more than what he really is.


----------



## nataylor

Jason must be very insecure. It was really clear that Junior was just saying that making drawings is not how he personally designs bikes, not that what Jason does is useless.

And I had to roll my eyes at how Jason took some credit for Junior's success. I think it's the other way around.


----------



## snowjay

That boy should be given no camera time.


----------



## bareyb

Jason's not winning any fans this season is he? 

I do think Jason has some pretty good skilz for being such a goofball. He has progressed quite a bit with the software with the Photo Realistic stuff and the CAD drawings he does for Jim Quinn. Maybe if he didn't ACT like such a doofus people would give him more respect. That whole scene with Jr. made no sense. He was either totally off base, or he was just trying to get some drama going with Jr. Either way. Lame.


----------



## innocentfreak

nataylor said:


> Jason must be very insecure. It was really clear that Junior was just saying that making drawings is not how he personally designs bikes, not that what Jason does is useless.
> 
> And I had to roll my eyes at how Jason took some credit for Junior's success. I think it's the other way around.


That was my thing. Jr was simply saying he can't design that way. He has to see it in the real world rather than looking at a picture.


----------



## snowjay

bareyb said:


> Jason's not winning any fans this season is he?
> 
> I do think Jason has some pretty good skilz for being such a goofball. He has progressed quite a bit with the software with the Photo Realistic stuff and the CAD drawings he does for Jim Quinn. Maybe if he didn't ACT like such a doofus people would give him more respect. That whole scene with Jr. made no sense. He was either totally off base, or he was just trying to get some drama going with Jr. Either way. Lame.


I agree with you, Jason seems to be good at what he does. To go as far to say he is an industrial designer, I dunno.

And I don't get what their beef is with going to PJD to look at the roller. Throw around some ideas in real life, maybe even mock stuff up and then send Jason back to his office to blueprint it all for production. I can absolutely see why Jr likes to do things on the lift. I myself am a hands on visual person, looking at something on a screen or in a book is nothing like having it in your hands so you can touch, see, feel in real life. Even the guys at OCC complain about Jason's drawing sometimes in the fact that what he can do on paper cannot be replicated in living 3D space. It's just sad that Sr. can't understand that or even remember when there was no Pohl to draw stuff and he and Paulie built bikes freehand with nothing but their imagination. IMHO those were some of the best bikes back then.


----------



## Gerryex

I agree with all of the above comments but I have to say that both JR and SR are foolish to think that they can be in a business relationship again. Their personal relationship has just begun to get better and they take a gigantic leap and think they can be in business together. Here it is only the initial phases of the project and they're fighting just the same as they did before. OBVIOUSLY JR and SR have two very different approaches in how they build bikes and they are both quite successful. But together they only fight.

If they have any smarts at all they should just stop right now, forget about EVER doing buisness together again and go have a family barbecue!!

Gerry


----------



## inaka

I was just waiting for Rick and Vinnie to have a meeting with Jr and Sr where they collectively simply say, "Don't go in business together, STFU and go fishing!"

Problem solved.


----------



## jeepair

snowjay said:


> I agree with you, Jason seems to be good at what he does. To go as far to say he is an industrial designer, I dunno.
> 
> And I don't get what their beef is with going to PJD to look at the roller. Throw around some ideas in real life, maybe even mock stuff up and then send Jason back to his office to blueprint it all for production. I can absolutely see why Jr likes to do things on the lift. I myself am a hands on visual person, looking at something on a screen or in a book is nothing like having it in your hands so you can touch, see, feel in real life. Even the guys at OCC complain about Jason's drawing sometimes in the fact that what he can do on paper cannot be replicated in living 3D space. It's just sad that Sr. can't understand that or even remember when there was no Pohl to draw stuff and he and Paulie built bikes freehand with nothing but their imagination. IMHO those were some of the best bikes back then.


OCC has to get prior approval from their clients before they can go to work and build their bikes therefore they need Jason to sketch them up. JR on the other hand is given free reign and the clients don't see the bikes until the unveiling.

I like the way JR does things but I do agree somewhat with getting a sketch during the process.


----------



## snowjay

jeepair said:


> OCC has to get prior approval from their clients before they can go to work and build their bikes therefore they need Jason to sketch them up. JR on the other hand is given free reign and the clients don't see the bikes until the unveiling.
> 
> I like the way JR does things but I do agree somewhat with getting a sketch during the process.


I know what OCC does, but that's not how they started.


----------



## windracer

It was nice to see Sr. and Jr. finally realize going back into business together was not a healthy decision for them.

Strange stock footage clip of PJD's building at one point ... it must have been from before they moved in because the parking lot was empty, there was no logo banner on it, and there were a bunch of extension cranes parked on the side.

Looking forward to the final episode tonight. There hasn't been any lead-in as to what each side is doing for the build-off like last time. I guess that's going to be part of the 2-hour finale.


----------



## innocentfreak

Anyone else find the Chopper Live tough to watch?

I thought the host just plain sucked, and it seemed like they didn't plan the show out.


----------



## Tobashadow

I skipped all the way to the end and almost shut it off after the host waited and waited and waited way too damn long to give the result.


----------



## snowjay

innocentfreak said:


> Anyone else find the Chopper Live tough to watch?
> 
> I thought the host just plain sucked, and it seemed like they didn't plan the show out.


I agree the show wasn't very fluid. Although I don't think any of those personalities are well suited for live TV.


----------



## Gerryex

innocentfreak said:


> Anyone else find the Chopper Live tough to watch?


I thought it was terrible and zipped through most of it.

BUT . . . BRAVO - no DOUBLE BRAVO - to JR for winning again!! I think it goes to show that he really WAS the main design inspiration at OCC and Jason is just a talented draftsman who picked up some design experience working with JR all those years.

Some comments on the bikes. But first I just want to say that I am so NOT a motorcycle person - the last time I was on a motorcycle of any kind was as a passenger and it was 30 or more years ago. Having said that I've been watching American Chopper almost from the very beginning! I like the combination of the mechanics of the design/build and the sometimes strange personalities.

The bikes:

Jesse James - Before last year's competition I never even heard of this guy! His last year's bike looked nice but the geometry was such that the handlebars were a very high reach and I thought it would be very uncomfortable to ride. This year's bike was so late in being finished we didn't see very much of it. I'm sure more of it was shown in the live part on Tues, but that show was so poorly done I zipped through most of it. Also, this guy sure loves himself! I never saw so many self complements before!!

Fast & Loud guys - I don't watch their show but I have seen promos for it. The one guy's long beard to me is very unattractive - but to each his own. As far as the bike I agree with SR that it was much more of a refurbishment than a build and gave them an advantage (or at least should have) in the time to build it. I was not impressed, although they won 2nd place.

SR - At least it was a bike this time! Actually very impressive piece of engineering but that was it. The aesthetics was the design and the design was the aesthetics. Good effort and I though it should have been 2nd.

JR - He really came up with a great design which I thought looked very nice. Nicer than even his last year's bike. He really put a lot of thought in what kinds of theme things to put in and they really worked together quite well. So once again congratulations to JR and much continued success with his company!!

This Monday is the very last new episode of American Chopper and I will miss it!!!

Gerry


----------



## bareyb

Agree the Host was a total DB. He was obviously trying to get them to disrespect each other on Camera. That whole thing with JJ and the Gas Monkey guy was weird... I actually thought all the bikes were pretty cool last night though. I liked them all. Even Senior's bike had a lot going for it. I guess Sport Bikes are the new Chopper...


----------



## innocentfreak

Gerryex said:


> This Monday is the very last new episode of American Chopper and I will miss it!!!
> 
> Gerry


I thought it was this past Monday?

I would probably rank the bikes JR, Sr, Jesse, F&L.

I did not like the front end of Sr's bike at all. It looked unfinished to me.

I wish they would bring back the old bike building series since those were entertaining. They also had a rule iirc that you had to ride your bike to the event so it had to be a legit bike that could be ridden.


----------



## bareyb

innocentfreak said:


> I thought it was this past Monday?
> 
> I would probably rank the bikes JR, Sr, Jesse, F&L.
> 
> I did not like the front end of Sr's bike at all. It looked unfinished to me.
> 
> I wish they would bring back the old bike building series since those were entertaining. They also had a rule iirc that you had to ride your bike to the event so it had to be a legit bike that could be ridden.


Agree about Sr's bike. Front end needed some love and those exhaust pipes did need to be shortened about two inches like JQ said. I think I'd probably rank them this way:

1. Junior
2. Gas Monkey
3. Senior
4. Jesse

I think I'd need to see Jesse's bike closer up to see the detail. It IS hand made for the most part, so that's pretty cool. It just looks very cramped to me, even for a Sport Bike.

The Gas Monkey bike just looked like a really comfortable cruiser, although the front fork travel was pretty minimal. In reality, I'd be more likely to buy this one over the one Paulie made.

Sr's bike had a lot going for it. The anodized aluminum looks cool and that Carbon Shock was really cool too. I've never seen that before.

Junior wins because his bike was the only Chopper. 
No. I think from an aesthetic standpoint his bike was the most like Art. I was surprised how well that grill molded with the tank they built. The color was great and the exhaust looked really cool. Overall, I think the "best" bike in the contest, but not necessarily one I'd want to ride. That honor goes to the Gas Monkey bike.


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## inaka

Live show was horrible.

Jesse James is such a clown. He can dish it out but can't take it.
If anyone else needed an extra two weeks, he'd be all over them for not being able to hang with the big boys, and being bush league, etc. He constantly mentions Jr. and Sr., then in another segment he says, that they only mention him because he's the benchmark. haha So, you mention Jr. and Sr. since they are too? Then the guy gets made because one of the fast and loud guys said he was chasing his ex-wife around. Maybe he's mad because it's true? He makes fun of the Teutul family all the time, but now families are off-limits, even though his personal life was public as well? Lame. 

Jesse's bike also looked ridiculous when he was actually riding it onto the stage. The proportions looked way off.

It was nice to see Sr's bike not be a snowmobile. The anodizing process really did make that bike look a LOT better. I was pretty impressed by the design.

The fast and loud guys? Lame bike. I mean, they took a bike, took off some parts and repainted it. Yawn.

I thought Jr.'s bike was going to seriously suck when they did the sheet metal mock up, but I think nub's paint job tied everything together nicely. As has been said, his bikes really do look like pieces of art that just happen to be bikes. He deserved to win, but man, that show was hard to watch.


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## windracer

Watched the final two episodes and it was a fitting ending to the series, a very nice retrospective. I had never actually seen the jet bike pilot episode so it was fun to see how young (and less tattooed!) everyone was.

I had to laugh because when Jr. went to the Intrepid to research jets, one of the first thing he mentioned was all of the rivets and how he wanted to incorporate that into the bike!  He also talked about how he has no art skills and just designs out of his head, and Sr. commented on how he disliked that. So all the way back to episode 1, those seeds of disagreement were there.

I miss Mike Rowe's commentary, nice to hear that again too.


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## bareyb

Speaking of Mike Rowe... How come American Chopper gets a two hour send off and Dirty Jobs just gets canceled and disappears?


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## bareyb

Well guess what? It's back! Or at least Senior is.

Old Senior just couldn't let it die apparently and it looks like a lot of the staff is still with him. It Premieres this Saturday night at 10:00 p.m. Pacific on CMT TV under the name "Orange County Choppers".

I guess the ride isn't over yet, but Pilgrim Studios isn't going for the ride this time. Not sure if Paulie is involved in any capacity but he's not listed in the cast. I'm guessing he won't have a thing to do with it. It's probably going to be pretty bad, but I still have to watch it anyway.


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## windracer

Back to the well for Sr., eh?

Thanks for the tip. What the heck, I'll watch and see how much of a trainwreck it is.  I had to add CMTV back to channels I receive to schedule it, heh.


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## bareyb

windracer said:


> Back to the well for Sr., eh?
> 
> Thanks for the tip. What the heck, I'll watch and see how much of a trainwreck it is.  I had to add CMTV back to channels I receive to schedule it, heh.


I had to check and see if I had it too. The last time I tuned into CMT, they were Music Videos only.


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## bobvr

Pilgrim Studios is still producing it.

http://www.pilgrimstudios.com/shows/orange-county-choppers/

And if they get back to a show more like when it started, it just might be good.


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## bareyb

bobvr said:


> Pilgrim Studios is still producing it.
> 
> http://www.pilgrimstudios.com/shows/orange-county-choppers/
> 
> And if they get back to a show more like when it started, it just might be good.


Ah. I assumed that they had to change the name because they changed production companies. Probably more because they changed networks. Should be interesting to see what the boys have been up to and if they still have their main HQ. The clips I saw actually looked like a different work space. Perhaps they took over Paulies old shop?


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## WhiskeyTango

Is PJD still making bikes? Their website looks like it's all about clothing, with a brief mention of his bikes that were on the show.


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## bareyb

WhiskeyTango said:


> Is PJD still making bikes? Their website looks like it's all about clothing, with a brief mention of his bikes that were on the show.


I was wondering what he was up to and if he's still married or has any kids yet. My guess is, he will do some cameos in the show, but won't have a major role. I think it debuts tonight, so we'll know more soon.


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## Frylock

WhiskeyTango said:


> Is PJD still making bikes? Their website looks like it's all about clothing, with a brief mention of his bikes that were on the show.


His website is also not real complete. Clicking on the FAQ link brings up a 'FAQ goes here' page. 

Watched the new OCC show. Pretty bad. Seems like Sr. has hired an incompetent replacement for Paulie, and that will be the focus of the show now.


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## bareyb

It's pretty much what I expected, but for me that's okay. OCC is like an old friend who has become kind of annoying but you keep hanging out with them anyway because it feels comfortable. SP Set.


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## windracer

I don't understand the bowling alley in the store. Is it part of the cafe? And then they drove the bike right onto those polished bowling alley floors. 

It's almost like a series reboot. Everyone started out introducing themselves, how long they'd been there, etc. Guess they're figuring on a whole new audience on CMT.


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## WRX09MD

bobvr said:


> Pilgrim Studios is still producing it.
> 
> http://www.pilgrimstudios.com/shows/orange-county-choppers/
> 
> And if they get back to a show more like when it started, it just might be good.


Thats the first thing I looked for. I was a little bummed when I saw them on there.


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## bareyb

windracer said:


> I don't understand the bowling alley in the store. Is it part of the cafe? And then they drove the bike right onto those polished bowling alley floors.
> 
> It's almost like a series reboot. Everyone started out introducing themselves, how long they'd been there, etc. Guess they're figuring on a whole new audience on CMT.


Senior probably got it for free if he agreed to put it on the air.


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## windracer

Just watched the 30min "behind the scenes" episiode. Damn, Sr. has a lot of cars (and bikes) in those two garages!  And of course he has his own backhoe.

What's missing from this new series, obviously, is the family dynamic: no mention of Mikey or Paul Jr (although I spotted them in some of the memorabilia Sr has in the one garage).


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## windracer

I have to admit that the dragon bike was one of the coolest, most original bikes I've seen OCC produce in a long time (almost Jr.-grade). The 3D printing, the carbon fiber, the overall look and the end result ... really cool.


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## EvilMidniteBombr

I thought it was pretty ridiculous. Interesting construction methods and steering, but it just looked ridiculous. 

The 3D printing was cool. I think Senior about crapped himself when they shot the dragon head with the acetyline cannon. That stunt damn near cost him a deadline. It would have been nice to see some consequences from their destructive horseplay, for a change.


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## bareyb

They seem to feel now that they have to blow something up in every single episode. I think it's pretty moronic. I will admit the show still works for me though. I like the new version better (minus all the stupidity) than Sr. vs. Jr. by a mile. I can do without all the drama and just stick to building bikes.


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## windracer

I wonder if a lot of this is because they're reaching a new audience on CMTV? It does seem to be a "reboot" with no mention of the prior show, staff, etc. If you'd never seen the show before you'd have no idea of the history.


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## ncsercs

Would rather see Jr. than these useless clowns (except Rick).....


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## bareyb

ncsercs said:


> Would rather see Jr. than these useless clowns (except Rick).....


Hey, you never know. If Jr. could get his own show, I'm sure he would jump at the chance. Anyone know if he's still making custom bikes? I figured by now he'd be divorced and living with Mikey.


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## Gerryex

I'm still watching!! But I'm still amazed at how Sr can go off on a rant so quickly even with people who have worked with him for so long. Of course I'm willing to bet that most of it is scripted anyway and the rant usually ends quickly and in the end wasn't so much of a big deal. While I don't miss all the negativity of the Jr vs. Sr I do miss seeing Jr and his team working as they are much more inventive than Sr and his crew (with the possible exception of the Dragon bike!).

Anyway, still an entertaining show - sort of!!

Gerry


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## nataylor

I wonder how well that dragon is going to stand up to bumps and dings with a single layer of carbon fiber. A guy here at work was making some foam-core disks covered in carbon fiber and he said a single layer wasn't enough and he had to be quite gentle with them.


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## Frylock

nataylor said:


> I wonder how well that dragon is going to stand up to bumps and dings with a single layer of carbon fiber. A guy here at work was making some foam-core disks covered in carbon fiber and he said a single layer wasn't enough and he had to be quite gentle with them.


I can't imagine that thing ever gets ridden. I figure it will just sit in the showroom in China.

One thing that I have noticed this season is Paul Sr. seems much less stressed out. It seems not being around his kids all the time is actually really good for him, at least in business.


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## bareyb

gastrof said:


> I just watched an episode this afternoon using On Demand.
> 
> Pilgrim appeared in the closing credits.
> 
> I don't know why it was thought they're not involved, but apparently they are.


I assumed that they'd changed production companies because of the name change, but later found out they changed the name because Discovery Channel had the rights to the original name. Glad to hear Paul hasn't poisoned the well with Pilgrim.


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