# My Tivo just became much less compelling to me



## westside_guy (Mar 13, 2005)

I've been using my Tivo HD for several years to watch Netflix and streaming content from my own library of ripped DVDs, in addition to recording TV of course. Well, we just replaced our living room TV with a new LG LW5600, and frankly it does a much better job handling things like Netflix and our own streaming media than the Tivo did (the Plex client works great!). We're basically back to where we started a decade ago - using the Tivo simply as a DVR.

I've been a Tivo customer quite a while; but I'm beginning to think this HD may be my last Tivo. Cable DVRs have improved significantly, at least from what I hear from my friends that own them. I know I'm likely to get some "don't let the door hit you on the way out" responses - but I'm curious to hear what people think Tivo is really offering anymore that isn't available from pretty much everything else the TV is connected to. Is there still room for Tivo's premium pricing in a market that seems to be moving towards commoditization?

*Addendum:* Looking at a few replies, it's apparent I need to clarify - the LW5600 is an LG "smart" television, not some add-on box.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

From my thinking, since tivo is still the only viable DVR option for OTA, and it does handle streaming and home media (perhaps not the best but it does fine) it remains as the only single point solution for ALL media presented under a single consistant interface for the entire home. So yes, its a niche product, but still the only one that combines all required features for our home. Any other way uses multiple boxes, multiple interfaces and each tv works different. Too big of a step down from what we have now.


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## jpcamaro70 (Nov 23, 2011)

westside_guy said:


> I've been using my Tivo HD for several years to watch Netflix and streaming content from my own library of ripped DVDs, in addition to recording TV of course. Well, we just replaced our living room TV with a new LG LW5600, and frankly it does a much better job handling things like Netflix and our own streaming media than the Tivo did (the Plex client works great!). We're basically back to where we started a decade ago - using the Tivo simply as a DVR.
> 
> I've been a Tivo customer quite a while; but I'm beginning to think this HD may be my last Tivo. Cable DVRs have improved significantly, at least from what I hear from my friends that own them. I know I'm likely to get some "don't let the door hit you on the way out" responses - but I'm curious to hear what people think Tivo is really offering anymore that isn't available from pretty much everything else the TV is connected to. Is there still room for Tivo's premium pricing in a market that seems to be moving towards commoditization?


I don't know about your own streaming media I don't have any, but i can say the integration of netflix and others is nice on a unit you use all the time. I have a BD player for a couple years capable of that but it seams easier on tivo just because it's always right there.

And then on the cable company note. I guess it depends on which cable company and dvr they use. My cable company has the worst dvr and i couldn't take it anymore. so reseach reviews before you jump. And also, you don't have any HR2x's, they are really good, you could just upgrade to them.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

I tried avoiding the upfront cost of TiVo once, trying the new Comcast HD box. It was unusable- the DVR and ondemand interfaces used the same keys for different functions. ONne you were done watching a program, the path back to watch more content was different. It missed recordings. It rebooted. It was terrible (especially as I had a thd already and knew how good it should be).

Perhaps you will have a better experience, but a tivo with lifetime saved money, aggravation, and has family acceptance.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

Your LG TV doesnt pause live TV, nor does it record TV. Your TiVo does. TiVo is first and formost a DVR anything extra it might do... well is extra. Its still the best DVR out there..IMO!


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## news4me2 (Jul 10, 2010)

> from jpcamaro70 ...i can say the integration of netflix and others is nice on a unit you use all the time. I have a BD player for a couple years capable of that but it seams easier on tivo just because it's always right there.


I would echo the above...

I have only been a Tivo customer for 18 months and my reason for selecting Tivo was because of the promise of being able to have one device that could record and stream from each of my preferred sources. I hate having multiple devices powered up all the time and having to switch remotes. I hardly ever play DVD's anymore since Tivo allows me to stream Netflix, Hulu, and Web Videos as well as renting new movies from Blockbuster and Amazon, or even purchasing Tickets to my local Movie Theaters if I want to catch the absolute newest movies. Most of my selections for newer movies are from Amazon's $1.99 Weekend specials but Tivo's ability to search for new movies and then compare prices between providers is fantastic. And, while I would prefer DLNA support, Tivo does provide a way to copy and play my own videos from my PC's and ReadyNAS device.

While I was perfectly happy with my FIOS DVRs, I can honestly say the only thing I miss about them is the great selection of On Demand videos. After 4 years of paying $300 in annual rental fees, the ongoing costs didn't make sense when compared to purchasing Tivo's with Lifetime Service. So, I purchased 2 Premieres with Lifetime service and have a 3rd Premiere with an Annual Service plan of $99 (all done before the current rate increases).

My FIOS rates continue to climb (as an existing customer I am expected to pay $30 per month more than what new customers pay for a 2 year contract!), so I have been flirting with dropping CableTV altogether and just keeping High Speed Internet services, and going OTA. There again, my Tivo Premiere's are going to be a huge part of the solution.

Hopefully, Tivo wants to remain competitive in the retail space and will continue to improve and add new features to our boxes. If not, I can sell my boxes and adopt whatever makes more sense to me.

Doing your homework is a positive thing, so noone can fault you there. Good Luck to you Westside_guy...


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## plazman30 (Jan 23, 2005)

There is a Plex plugin for TiVo that will let you watch your recorded content right inside of Plex. I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds pretty cool. I am installing plex media server right now. Taking it's sweet time to install....


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

jpcamaro70 said:


> And then on the cable company note. I guess it depends on which cable company and dvr they use. My cable company has the worst dvr and i couldn't take it anymore. so reseach reviews before you jump. And also, you don't have any HR2x's, they are really good, you could just upgrade to them.


Exactly. Not sure what system the OP is on, but I can tell you that Comcast's DVRs suck just as hard as they did a few years ago, there's been no meaningful improvement. They can't hold a candle to a Tivo.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Joe01880 said:


> Your LG TV doesnt pause live TV, nor does it record TV. Your TiVo does. TiVo is first and formost a DVR anything extra it might do... well is extra. Its still the best DVR out there..IMO!


Yes, it most definitely is.
The Op now has a TV that will handle all of his streaming needs. Ok, great, I get that, but the part I don't get is giving up the Tivo for a junk bucket of a cable dvr because he only needs a dvr and doesn't need the extra features of the Tivo (that, btw, don't cost extra) when the tivo he has is already a far superior dvr than anything he could replace it with.

There's no way in hell I'd give up my TiVo Premiere just because I'll now be using a Roku for Netflix, Hulu+, Pandora, and Amazon Instant Video.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

I've only made brief use of my TiVo S3 for streaming video or downloaded movie rental and I have multiple other things which do any of that I'm interested in far, far better than my TiVo ever did: BD player, Xbox, PS3, Roku 2 and this PC (connected to the same LCD panel and AVR as the rest). I'd consider switching to a rented cable DVR (my cable system has been using Passport Echo on their boxes which I always liked) but my S3 has PLS and it would cost considerably more to lease a cable DVR than the $4 for a couple of CableCARDs. A leased cable box is also tempting because Cox has added channels that I should get and assigned them to an SDV bandwidth pool up above 850 Mhz--I'd really, really like Tennis Channel HD and I can't get it on my TiVo. Cox has threatened to eventually charge for the use of the Tuning Adapter--if they do that, I might go to a leased box. (I should probably fight both moves via the FCC and the local cable franchising agency, but I don't have the energy).

Buying a Premiere might solve some of this (not the TA rental fee) but then I'd have a monthly charge from TiVo--you can't win .


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## thund3rstruck (Dec 8, 2005)

westside_guy said:


> I'm curious to hear what people think Tivo is really offering anymore that isn't available from pretty much everything else the TV is connected to. Is there still room for Tivo's premium pricing in a market that seems to be moving towards commoditization?


Of course this will be unpopular on a Tivo community site but I have to respond that personally I feel Tivo is not worth the price. I was probably the world's biggest supporter of Tivo up until 5 years or so ago when my Tivo suddenly died and I had no other alternative but to use a Satellite DVR.

For DVR-only my family is overwhelmingly satisfied with the DirecTV DVRs, especially the way they all automatically talk to each other and share hard disk space; allowing any recording to be played in any room in the house.

For Ripped DVD, Blurays, Music, Netflix, Internet TV, Hulu, GameTrailers, etc, etc we have a separate $200 nettop PC the runs XBMC Media Center. Sure it sucks to have two remotes and two devices but the XBMC is so incredibly badass that we actually watch it more than we watch DVR recordings.

The only thing I miss about Tivo is not having any way to rip and transcode our recordings off the Tivo but that's ok since you can find other people's rips off the TV torrent sites. .


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## jpcamaro70 (Nov 23, 2011)

thund3rstruck said:


> Of course this will be unpopular on a Tivo community site but I have to respond that personally I feel Tivo is not worth the price. I was probably the world's biggest supporter of Tivo up until 5 years or so ago when my Tivo suddenly died and I had no other alternative but to use a Satellite DVR.
> 
> For DVR-only my family is overwhelmingly satisfied with the DirecTV DVRs, especially the way they all automatically talk to each other and share hard disk space; allowing any recording to be played in any room in the house.
> 
> ...


I agree with that, I happen to really like the directv dvr's as well. As close to tivo as you can get. But we arent' talking about directv, the op is considering cable.


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## sparks1 (Nov 17, 2011)

plazman30 said:


> There is a Plex plugin for TiVo that will let you watch your recorded content right inside of Plex. I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds pretty cool. I am installing plex media server right now. Taking it's sweet time to install....


What are the advantages of Plex?


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## westside_guy (Mar 13, 2005)

sparks1 said:


> plazman30 said:
> 
> 
> > There is a Plex plugin for TiVo that will let you watch your recorded content right inside of Plex. I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds pretty cool. I am installing plex media server right now. Taking it's sweet time to install....
> ...


Actually, it's funny because the Plex Tivo plugin is the one thing I haven't got to work! 

In a nutshell, Plex takes your personal media files and offers them up in a pleasing visual manner similar to how Netflix's interface (on a good device like the PS3) works - you get movie art, summaries, actor lists and so on.

If you name your media files in a reasonably sane manner, Plex does a pretty good job automatically figuring out what you've got - and if it messes up, it's easy to "correct it" to get the right movie/TV show info.

And there's no 1.1GB streaming filesize limitation. 

As far as watching Tivo through it... if it works (and works well), it'd be cool because right now I'm paying for an extra Tivo simply for MRV use that happens maybe once a month.



slowbiscuit said:


> Exactly. Not sure what system the OP is on, but I can tell you that Comcast's DVRs suck just as hard as they did a few years ago, there's been no meaningful improvement. They can't hold a candle to a Tivo.


I am with Comcast. However one "advantage" to giving up my Tivo is I could then potentially switch to an alternative; e.g. DirectTV. In my case, the Tivo does have the side-effect of locking me into Comcast's network.



Joe01880 said:


> Your LG TV doesnt pause live TV, nor does it record TV. Your TiVo does. TiVo is first and formost a DVR anything extra it might do... well is extra. Its still the best DVR out there..IMO!


Just for the record, I have no argument with people who think Tivo is the best DVR out there. As far as I know... it is indeed. And it's not a given I'm going to move away from it. But, if I do stay with Tivo, it will be for the DVR functionality since there's no real advantage to streaming to a Tivo versus a television - it's all a matter of clicking buttons on a remote at that point. 

In any case, I appreciate all the thoughts expressed so far!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

thund3rstruck said:


> Of course this will be unpopular on a Tivo community site but I have to respond that personally I feel Tivo is not worth the price. I was probably the world's biggest supporter of Tivo up until 5 years or so ago when my Tivo suddenly died and I had no other alternative but to use a Satellite DVR.
> 
> For DVR-only my family is overwhelmingly satisfied with the DirecTV DVRs, especially the way they all automatically talk to each other and share hard disk space; allowing any recording to be played in any room in the house.
> 
> ...


Not worth the price? I saved a bunch of money by using TiVos instead of FiOS DVRs. I would have spent much more money over the last four plus years renting FiOS DVRs(Or Comcast DVRs) instead of TiVos. Then I would have also used more electricity, I also wouldn't have been able to transfer any of my FiOS recordings to my PC for permanent storage or to be burned to a Blu-ray Disc.

If TiVo isn't worth the price then I don't see how the cable company DVRs that cost more for less features can be justified. And of course the TiVos don't miss recordings regularly like the Comcast and FiOS DVRs in this area.


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## HDRyder9 (Aug 2, 2007)

I've been a Tivo user for a decade. I have two Tivos and two Media Center PCs. I find myself watching the PCs more and the Tivos less.


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## sparks1 (Nov 17, 2011)

westside_guy said:


> Actually, it's funny because the Plex Tivo plugin is the one thing I haven't got to work!
> 
> In a nutshell, Plex takes your personal media files and offers them up in a pleasing visual manner similar to how Netflix's interface (on a good device like the PS3) works - you get movie art, summaries, actor lists and so on.
> 
> ...


...
So where do I get the Plex plugin? Why hasn't it worked for you? Also, what does MRV mean? The plugin sounds very ideal to deal with Tivo's difficult naming schemes to represent files the way you'd like to see them on the tivo box.


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## westside_guy (Mar 13, 2005)

sparks1 said:


> ...
> So where do I get the Plex plugin? Why hasn't it worked for you? Also, what does MRV mean? The plugin sounds very ideal to deal with Tivo's difficult naming schemes to represent files the way you'd like to see them on the tivo box.


MRV = Tivo's Multi-Room Viewing

I don't think Plex's Tivo plugin does what you're thinking it does. The Plex plugin is installed through a Plex client's interface (Media Link on my LG television, in this case). It's supposed to let you view shows that are on your Tivo through the Plex client - but for me it never gets past asking for my Media Access Key. I type it in, it never gets past that step.

As far as I know there's no Plex client that runs as a Tivo HME app - which is what it sounds like you were thinking of.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

For OTA, I am still not aware of any DVR close to as good as TiVo but for satellite TV and internet video access, TiVo is nothing special. As far as DVR/internet streaming box, I can't think of anything better if you must have both in one box. I do know some can make a PC as a DVR/streaming player/media center work well but I haven't been able to do that.


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## poppagene (Dec 29, 2001)

I use my Tivos for ota only and no longer subcribe to satelite or cable. While my sony blu-ray palyers do a better job of streaming and providing internet content including amazon and netflix, we wouldn't dream of watching tv without tivo.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

westside_guy said:


> Cable DVRs have improved significantly, at least from what I hear from my friends that own them.


Did these friends once own TiVos? i.e., can they really offer a pros/cons comparison? Or have they just always used cable DVRs and wouldn't really even know how those DVRs could be inferior (or not) to TiVo.

Also, if they're friends, then before I ditched the TiVo, I'd be over at their place asking to play with the DVR a bit to see what it's like.


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## rayik (Feb 4, 2006)

Our family cut the cord. For OTA I purchased a "new, old stock" S3 (OLED) and put lifetime on it. (The TIVO CSR was surprised I wanted to lifetime the unit). Considering the $65 / month savings from cutting the DTV cord, the S3 with lifetime was worth it.

However, I've played with the TIVO streaming with Netfix and Hulu+ and was not happy with it. We have purchased two Rokus (for 2 different TVs) for streaming and are very happy with the Rokus. The interface for finding shows is much better than TIVOs.

But for OTA, TIVO is much easier for the family to use than a HTPC (especially the non tech savy members of the family - mainly my spouse).


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## P42 (Jan 7, 2003)

westside_guy said:


> It's supposed to let you view shows that are on your Tivo through the Plex client.


Is this the Plex app you are referring to? http://wiki.plexapp.com/index.php/TiVo


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## Scyber (Apr 25, 2002)

P42 said:


> Is this the Plex app you are referring to? http://wiki.plexapp.com/index.php/TiVo


That wiki page is out of date. I've kinda "inherited" the tivo plex plugin. The original dev is no longer actively working on it. I made some changes to get it to work with Plex 9, but that is as far as I've gotten so far.

There are currently some serious limitations to the plex plugin. The primary one is that it is currently limited to OSX plex media server installs. The plugin uses OSX specific command line programs to discover and browse tivos. I actually had a version working on windows for discovery and browsing. But I was never able to get streaming to work correctly. The version I had working was using an all python based code for discover and browsing. So it should in theory work on Windows, Linux, and OSX.

My ultimate goal would be to get the Tivo Plugin working well enough so that I can use a Roku as a thin client on a TV w/o a Tivo. In theory all of the pieces are there, its just a matter of getting the all working together.


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## Scyber (Apr 25, 2002)

westside_guy said:


> but for me it never gets past asking for my Media Access Key. I type it in, it never gets past that step.


It sounds like you are running PMS on a non-OSX box. Currently the tivo plugin only supports OSX.


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## P42 (Jan 7, 2003)

Thanks for the info Scyber, you've saved me the frustration of find this out the hard way 



Scyber said:


> My ultimate goal would be to get the Tivo Plugin working well enough so that I can use a Roku as a thin client on a TV w/o a Tivo. In theory all of the pieces are there, its just a matter of getting the all working together.


My plan exactly. I'd offer to help, but I can't code my way out of a paper bag!


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## westside_guy (Mar 13, 2005)

Scyber said:


> It sounds like you are running PMS on a non-OSX box. Currently the tivo plugin only supports OSX.


My "media server" is a repurposed MacBook Pro (Core 2 Duo) running Snow Leopard, actually.


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## Scyber (Apr 25, 2002)

westside_guy said:


> My "media server" is a repurposed MacBook Pro (Core 2 Duo) running Snow Leopard, actually.


Interesting, that is the exact behavior I see when running on windows. If you PM me your logs (especially the tivo plugin log) I can take a look at it. Unfortunately if it is a client issue I don't have access to an LGTV to test. But it was my understanding that the plugin was updated specifically to work on the LGTV prior to me taking over the code.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

jcthorne said:


> From my thinking, since tivo is still the only viable DVR option for OTA, and it does handle streaming and home media (perhaps not the best but it does fine) it remains as the only single point solution for ALL media presented under a single consistant interface for the entire home. So yes, its a niche product, but still the only one that combines all required features for our home. Any other way uses multiple boxes, multiple interfaces and each tv works different. Too big of a step down from what we have now.


I agree with this 100%. We use the Netflix a lot on our Premiere, though the majority of our content still comes from OTA. The only other device capable of streaming Netflix in our house is the computer. The consistency of interface/operation is a big plus, and we've noticed a significant performance boost in the Netflix application of late. It was ok before, just sluggish, and forget about trying to FF/RW. It seems ok in all those areas now.


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## westside_guy (Mar 13, 2005)

Scyber said:


> Interesting, that is the exact behavior I see when running on windows. If you PM me your logs (especially the tivo plugin log) I can take a look at it. Unfortunately if it is a client issue I don't have access to an LGTV to test. But it was my understanding that the plugin was updated specifically to work on the LGTV prior to me taking over the code.


Well, thank you! I didn't intend to turn this thread into my personal help ticket! 

I'll try to get the logs sent to you tonight... assuming logging is turned on by default in Plex. Otherwise, I'll figure out how to turn them on and then get them to you ASAP.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

While I'll agree that Tivos are a better solution than cableco DVRs, I won't necessarily agree that they're the best DVR solution available, but then that's just my opinion. I used to rave about Tivos and was probably one of their biggest fans. 

I used to have DirecTV but switched to FIOS when it became available in my area. I made the switch because DirecTV had dumped Tivo and I wasn't sure if I wanted to get into another two-year commitment for their new HD DVR that was still problematic at the time. Prior to making the switch I began using an HTPC for recording my OTA local channels. I was using Win XP with BeyondTV as my DVR app. After the switch I continued using the HTPC for OTA locals but used two S3 Tivos for recording from FIOS.

When the Ceton InfiniTV4 tuners became available I upgraded to Win 7 and used both my Tivos and the HTPC for recording. I liked the idea of having everything in one box so the Tivos eventually fell out of service simply for lack of interest. Every function I was interested in using was available on my HTPC as well as features, like Blu-Ray playback, that the Tivo couldn't match. I have since sold the 2nd S3 Tivo that was subbed under the MSD so I'm down to just the lifetime unit.

I tried extenders with WMC but never quite warmed up to them. The main problem with having a central source for TV programming is that if the main box goes out, nobody gets to watch TV. This applies to any type of MoCA network or distributed TV system. It sounds great in principle, but only when it works. It's not an issue for me since I can deal with PC problems on my own. The downside is that if something happens when I'm not there to fix it, I catch all kinds of grief about it. I am currently the sole user of the HTPC as a result. The wife gets to use the Tivo in the family room and a STB in the bedroom.

PC issues aside, my HTPC has worked great as a DVR. With the Ceton tuners I can record all of my cable channels as well as my HD locals using ATSC tuners. Since I'm on FIOS, all of my recordings are flagged as copy freely so they can be shared with other PCs in the house. I have both the Tivo and a Dell Zino HD connected to the family room PC so the wife can watch the TRivo and I can use the small PC for watching recorded shows when we have company. The Tivo is no longer used for recording chores and has been demoted to tuner status only.


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

I too originally purchased my Premiere with the intention of consolidating streaming sources (I'd previously tried Google TV (Revue) and a nettop running Boxee). But what I found is that like GTV and Boxee, Premiere doesn't deliver quite all the streaming content I'm interested in (hulu plus, amazon instant, pandora, BYUtv).

So I bought a Roku, and finally, I'm getting everything I want. So it's Premiere (for DVR duties) and Roku (for streaming) for me. 

I also have a Harmony remote which allows me to seamlessly switch modes with a single button press. This makes a huge difference in the "wife and daughter acceptance factor".

(Admission - we're still using the nettop with Boxee just for Pandora, just to get the awesome screen graphics. Luckily the Harmony brings that into the mix seamlessly as well).


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Even though I'm a VERY new 'convert' to doing it, I'm using transfer to computer a lot nowadays.. to save the musical performances off of talk shows.. but now (and this is a DIG on Tivo) to expand storage, since I have a Tivo drive that went bad (and seemingly NOT due to hardware, but due to filesystem issues)..

So I'm kind of waiting for drive prices to come back down (I want at least one "extra" drive to play around with rescuing the shows), and have the orig relatively tiny drive.. so have been moving some stuff to an external computer drive.. Now that we're in winter rerun season mostly, I'm hoping/intending to move some back and watch it..

Yes, I know that some of you have NO transfer capabilities due to cable company restrictions.. but AFAIK, NONE of the other DVRS *ever* let you do this... with some small exceptions to transfer to portable devices on some systems.. But not just a plain "transfer the exact recording to a computer".

Plus, the UI seems to me to still be a lot better..

But yes, reliability on Tivos could be better -- then again, I see cable & satellite people talking about their unit going bad and just losing everything without even a hope of recovering it, even in a "hard drive slowly going bad" situation, that we can live with, admittedly due to hacking tools.


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

Scyber said:


> It sounds like you are running PMS on a non-OSX box. Currently the tivo plugin only supports OSX.


That explains it then. I recently bought a 55LW5600 and installed Plex & the tivo plugin yesterday. My basic setup is XP with Desktop Plus and kmttg. It never even got as far as asking for the MAK.

I don't really know python, but I've been programming for over 30 years. If I can help get this plugin working again just let me know.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

RDK said:


> I too originally purchased my Premiere with the intention of consolidating streaming sources (I'd previously tried Google TV (Revue) and a nettop running Boxee). But what I found is that like GTV and Boxee, Premiere doesn't deliver quite all the streaming content I'm interested in (hulu plus, amazon instant, pandora, BYUtv).
> 
> So I bought a Roku, and finally, I'm getting everything I want. So it's Premiere (for DVR duties) and Roku (for streaming) for me.
> 
> ...


Screen Graphics? What about the music? I use Pandora on the Premiere, Boxee Box and Roku2. For me it plays the same music on each one. And shows me the title of the track and the artist. Which is what I want if I decide to buy it later.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

I'm with the OP. I've been using Tivo's for 10 years (wow, it's been awhile). I have a Series 3 I bought right when they came out with lifetime. I got sick of fighting with my cable company about my cable cards going out a year after that and went to OTA + basic. Recently my DVR expander went bad, but at the time I thought it was the Tivo HD until I tried out the kickstarter 54, but it really got me thinking.

What's Next?

I have two series 2 rocking in two other bedrooms and my Series 3, but when the Series 3 goes I honestly don't know what I'm going to do. I find the Netflix integration on the Series 3 quite buggy and use my Wii instead, even though I lose some picture quality. I've seen the Premiere, and I am not getting that. I've almost started a 'what's next' thread but I know how well these types of threads are received here. I'll probably end up trying to repair my Series 3 HD once it goes hoping that's the culprit or hooking up a Mac Mini + Eye TV unless something better comes along. I'm hoping against hope that this rumored Apple TV changes the distribution game (i.e. some channels like ESPN or the like come along for the ride on ala cart pricing).


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> Screen Graphics? What about the music? I use Pandora on the Premiere, Boxee Box and Roku2. For me it plays the same music on each one. And shows me the title of the track and the artist. Which is what I want if I decide to buy it later.


Well yes, we use Pandora for music. But between the Premiere, Boxee PC, Roku, and GTV apps, we prefer Boxee PC (which I think is different than Boxee Box's version), because of the wide variety of full screen graphics (check out youtube to see what I mean). Great for parties.

(Plus, no pandora commercials, which I think is also unique to the Boxee PC app).


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

RDK said:


> (Plus, no pandora commercials, which I think is also unique to the Boxee PC app).


What's a "Pandora commercial"? I've used it both free and paid on TiVo, PC, Roku 2 and my AVR and I don't think that I've seen or heard an ad.


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## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

westside_guy said:


> Cable DVRs have improved significantly, at least from what I hear from my friends that own them.


Interesting. My cable company just recently decided to replace their generic DVRs with Tivo Premieres. At $15/month for the cable company DVR it's worth it to have one that I own (with lifetime, of course). If you are paying monthly for Tivo service then its probably not worth it to continue - especially if streaming online video is a big part of your entertainment. OTA is not an option where I'm at so its cable or satellite and the only online stuff I'm interested in is an occasional movie which I can get from Amazon.


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## sparks1 (Nov 17, 2011)

I also have a Harmony remote which allows me to seamlessly switch modes with a single button press. This makes a huge difference in the "wife and daughter acceptance factor".

..
What do you mean "switch modes?"



aaronwt said:


> Screen Graphics? What about the music? I use Pandora on the Premiere, Boxee Box and Roku2. For me it plays the same music on each one. And shows me the title of the track and the artist. Which is what I want if I decide to buy it later.


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

mikeyts said:


> What's a "Pandora commercial"? I've used it both free and paid on TiVo, PC, Roku 2 and my AVR and I don't think that I've seen or heard an ad.


When I run Pandora on Roku, there is a short (audio) commercial every 10 minutes or so. I haven't used it enough on Premiere to know if they're there as well. If I'm remembering right, there are commercials on the windows version also. (I'm running free version on everything).


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

sparks1 said:


> What do you mean "switch modes?"


I've got "soft buttons" on the remote (touch screen icons) programmed for "Watch TV", "Watch Internet TV", "Watch DVD", etc. Pressing one of those buttons turns on/off the appropriate devices and switches input modes on the receiver and TV, and remaps the remote buttons for whatever source device is used.

For the family, this means that everything "just works" without any need to know how everything is connected, or for multiple remotes.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Scyber said:


> It sounds like you are running PMS on a non-OSX box. Currently the tivo plugin only supports OSX.


I've got an OS X laptop, but unable to download the Plex TiVo plugin? Yoav's page leads to a 404. Can you please point me to a working link?


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

Fofer said:


> I've got an OS X laptop, but unable to download the Plex TiVo plugin? Yoav's page leads to a 404. Can you please point me to a working link?


I couldn't find a working link, but once Plex was running I just picked the plugin from my TV. The download actually goes to your media server, not the client.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

RDK said:


> Well yes, we use Pandora for music. But between the Premiere, Boxee PC, Roku, and GTV apps, we prefer Boxee PC (which I think is different than Boxee Box's version), because of the wide variety of full screen graphics (check out youtube to see what I mean). Great for parties.
> 
> (Plus, no pandora commercials, which I think is also unique to the Boxee PC app).


OK. I see what you are talking about. . In my use, I want to be able to see the title playing and the artist if I look at the screen, but typically I'm doing some other things while the music is playing so I will look at the screen when I want to mark an artist so I can purchase the content later.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mikeyts said:


> What's a "Pandora commercial"? I've used it both free and paid on TiVo, PC, Roku 2 and my AVR and I don't think that I've seen or heard an ad.


I'm not sure which devices have the commercials from Pandora but they are definitely on my Android phone. But even then they don't appear very often. But when I listen on my android phone I'm also listening for hours at a time so I tend to notice them more. But when I listen to Pandora on my Boxee Box, TiVo, or Roku 2 it's typically under an hour.


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## snedecor (Jun 27, 2001)

HDRyder9 said:


> I've been a Tivo user for a decade. I have two Tivos and two Media Center PCs. I find myself watching the PCs more and the Tivos less.


+1


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> I'm not sure which devices have the commercials from Pandora but they are definitely on my Android phone. But even then they don't appear very often. But when I listen on my android phone I'm also listening for hours at a time so I tend to notice them more. But when I listen to Pandora on my Boxee Box, TiVo, or Roku 2 it's typically under an hour.


I can't remember how long I've been a Pandora subscriber (what got to me was the time limit); I've probably just forgotten about them.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

HDRyder9 said:


> I've been a Tivo user for a decade. I have two Tivos and two Media Center PCs. I find myself watching the PCs more and the Tivos less.





snedecor said:


> +1


Just the opposite for me. Ten years ago I used my HTPCs for recording and watching HD content alot because there were no other options and there were no HD TiVos yet(I DirecTV TiVos). I also used them for viewing DVDs using DVD players with SDI connections. But over the years i used them less and less until I finally dumped my HTPCs in 2007 or so. And I had stopped watching DVDs by 2006 in anticipation of HD DVD and BD that were being launched that year.

Now i couldn't imagine going back to using HTPCs for viewing any content. it's much more convenient using the media players and other devices with Internet applications.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Just built a Windows 7 Media Center pc and so far it rocks.

4 tuners. A ton of storage space. A snappy guide and interface. HD at that. So far so reliable. Sleeps when not recording. Wakes up to record. Superfast 30 second skip that I can change. 7-8 sec skip backwards. Ability to add more tuners and storage. Music and movies on same interface. Netflix. ....etc. And I can use it as a computer. 

Right now I am wondering why I didn't build this earlier. Oh yeah prices were higher for one. And during Black Friday I scored some even better deals on key components like nabbing the Ceton tuner by chance from Newegg for $219.

Plus you can do cablecard self installs. That removed another barrier to building a WMC pc. 

The cablecard install process was surprisingly painless. I was prepared for the worst. And it turned out the best. A few minutes on the phone giving the tech support a few numbers and it was activated a minute later.

IT actually took a cable tech at least an hour to get the cablecard to work on my Premiere last year. 

Downsides? 

NOt seeing any yet. Interface doesn't make the best use of space I guess. NOt as intuitive perhaps but not sure if that is just me used to Tivo for 7 years.

So far so good. My cost for a 4 tuner WMC pc was hundreds less than a 4 tuner Tivo with lifetime and much more powerful, more easily expandable, with more and better internet streaming features, snappier, 100% HD interface, better media streaming features, .... and in theory I will save even more when using it for multiple tvs if extender solutions prove adequate.

I am only 5 days out since I built it so impressions are still fresh. Unsure about using an XBox for an extender. Maybe I go cheap pc. Havent purchased a remote yet either.

All in all I recommend to all and I have hopped on the WMC bandwagon after being a bit of a naysayer for years. OH another thing if something goes wrong I can fix it. IF my Tivo goes belly up...I don't feel like I can fix it as easily and then you lose your lifetime if you don't fix your specific machine. Hell my warranties are longer (at least 1 yr compared to 90 days for a Tivo) on all the parts on my WMC pc.

What is a ironic is that building a WMC pc is easier than ever, cheaper and slicker plus you can do cablecard self installs and this is when MS decides to move away from the WMC pc.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Exactly what I've been preaching to the naysayers here for months. Using an XBox as an extender may or may not be what you need. I think you'll find it mostly depends on how your better half reacts to new things that are technology oriented. The downside of using an extender or a PC as a remote tuner or media extender is that it's always dependent on the health of the primary PC. 

My wife has zero tolerance for anything that doesn't work the way she wants so I donated the Tivo to her TV. If it was just me, I'd be using satellite PCs and the tuner sharing app from Ceton. I've got two InfiniTV4's and two Hauppauge 2250's in my main HTPC so there's plenty of tuners to go around. I've tried various media extenders, including the new slim X-Box 360 and was sort of lukewarm about them. They work as advertised, just not as well as you'd like. I've got a Dell Zino HD and just finished building a mini-ITX PC that will probably be configured for tuner sharing in the near future.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

MY wife will be using WMC.  I don't see it as less user friendly than Tivo so far and I don't even have a remote yet.

What my wife does hate is is when I change the tech in our house around. Like going from Series 2 Tivo to cable co DVR to Premiere to Cable co dvr and now WMC pc. 

She hates that. I love it. I like to see how the different tech works. Also my switching is motivated by saving money somewhat too. 

Anyway WMC has been up and running with no problems for 5 days. IT did reboot once but that was because I had Windows updates set to automatically install at 3am. 

MY WMC pc is much snappier than Tivo. It flies.

Yeah I am thinking the 360 won't be something I like but will test it out at xmas time.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I think the one thing I didn't like about the 360 or any other extender is that sometimes the transport controls were a bit sluggish. You might have to wait for a brief second before it responded to remote commands to FF or REW. Otherwise, it looks just like the WMC UI and gives you access to all menus. I like that you can access the recording schedule and program guide and manipulate your recording schedule from any extender. One of the biggest shortcomings to extenders is the lack of codec support for various types of video files. If you only plan on using it to watch live TV or shows recorded on the main HTPC then it's a perfectly workable solution.


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## dt100 (Apr 7, 2008)

I have a really, really basic question and am not that tech savy, so please have patience. I have been a strong Tivo supporter almost since they first started. I am getting getting another HD TV, and am trying to decide if I should get another HD Tivo (and get rid of cable - which is a different question), or if Ruku or something similar will fill my purpose. If the shows I watch are already recorded on services like Hulu, then what exactly is the point of a Tivo? As I understand it, the only benefits are 1) being able to pause live TV, and 2) recording shows that are not already recorded on a service? Thanks.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

The benefits are that you don't have to watch commercials, which you HAVE to do with Hulu.

(Don't get me wrong, if something like netflix streaming had ALL shows I wanted to watch, I would use it and pay a lot for it... But I can't imagine not having SOME kind of recording device too..)


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep, unskippable commercials for internet streaming is a non-starter to me. There will always be room for a DVR as far as I can see.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Not watching commercials is one of the main reasons I use Tivo.


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

dt100 said:


> I have a really, really basic question and am not that tech savy, so please have patience. I have been a strong Tivo supporter almost since they first started. I am getting getting another HD TV, and am trying to decide if I should get another HD Tivo (and get rid of cable - which is a different question), or if Ruku or something similar will fill my purpose. If the shows I watch are already recorded on services like Hulu, then what exactly is the point of a Tivo? As I understand it, the only benefits are 1) being able to pause live TV, and 2) recording shows that are not already recorded on a service? Thanks.


*Long term access to recordings (online services sometimes only save a limited number of episodes).
*Recording of one-time programs like sports events and award shows (online access to this type of program is spotty)
*Immediate access to recordings, even while still being recorded (online services often don't have episodes for a day or more).
*Access to content that isn't available online at all (local news is one example. Another is programs with content that doesn't allow online streaming (like certain musical performances. American Idol is/was this way)

But all of these are pretty much artifacts of the transitional nature of streaming content. My guess is that in 5 or 10 years, all content will be available online, and that will be the "normal" way it is viewed.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

mattack said:


> The benefits are that you don't have to watch commercials, which you HAVE to do with Hulu.
> 
> (Don't get me wrong, if something like netflix streaming had ALL shows I wanted to watch, I would use it and pay a lot for it... But I can't imagine not having SOME kind of recording device too..)


This is why I gave up on Hulu. Way more commercials than broadcast.

-Ted


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## forum1 (May 25, 2011)

I too am a long time TiVo fan, having started with a Series 1 way back when and progressing through both standalone and DirecTiVo units. Unfortunately, I have been thoroughly unimpressed with the Premier (Series 4) units. I am still waiting for a complete HD UI and system responsiveness that should be standard from day one. The software we do have is absurdly buggy. Im sick of being held captive to their whims of software upgrades that often break more than they fix, with no release notes and no way to downgrade. Worse, most of the technical people at TiVo are either too dense to comprehend the issues described to them or they simply dont care. And as trip1eX noted, the TiVo can be more difficult to fix if something breaks. Clearly the days of TiVo advertising something and then actually delivering on it are long gone. TiVo is no longer the simple, no fuss appliance it used to be, and its not the powerful user modifiable and serviceable system that a real PC is. The HTPC software market has matured and improved with age while TiVo seems to have gotten sloppy, regressing to a kindergartener with finger paints. The next time around I plan to go the HTPC route.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

ncted said:


> This is why I gave up on Hulu. Way more commercials than broadcast.
> 
> -Ted


Way less commercials than broadcast. Way less. I use hulu+ regularly for some shows. For a popular show like Grey's Anatomy, they have the most commercials on Hulu+ and that is maybe 7 to 9 minutes. When shows are broadcast on the major networks there are typically at least 20 minutes of commercials during that hour.
For other shows there could only be a few minutes of the commercials on Hulu+.
I don't mind the commercials as too much on Hulu as long as they are only 30 seconds or less. It's the ones that are a minute long that I don't like.

I also probably have a higher tolerance for commercials since during the past
27 years I have typically watched very few since I started time shifting my TV watching in 1984. So a few commercials on Hulu don't bother me since I rarely see any commercials in my normal viewing of recorded content.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

forum1 said:


> I too am a long time TiVo fan, having started with a Series 1 way back when and progressing through both standalone and DirecTiVo units. Unfortunately, I have been thoroughly unimpressed with the Premier (Series 4) units. I am still waiting for a complete HD UI and system responsiveness that should be standard from day one. The software we do have is absurdly buggy. Im sick of being held captive to their whims of software upgrades that often break more than they fix, with no release notes and no way to downgrade. Worse, most of the technical people at TiVo are either too dense to comprehend the issues described to them or they simply dont care. And as trip1eX noted, the TiVo can be more difficult to fix if something breaks. Clearly the days of TiVo advertising something and then actually delivering on it are long gone. TiVo is no longer the simple, no fuss appliance it used to be, and its not the powerful user modifiable and serviceable system that a real PC is. The HTPC software market has matured and improved with age while TiVo seems to have gotten sloppy, regressing to a kindergartener with finger paints. The next time around I plan to go the HTPC route.


I'd still rather deal with a STB for a DVR and my internet apps. I did the HTPC thing from 2001 to 2006/2007. Each year I used it less and less after I got an HDTiVo in 2004. Using an HTPC has always been very easy for HD recordings, at least in my use ten years ago (but back then it was basically a digital VCR I used for recording HD and in 2005 I got the software that made it like a DVR that pulled guide data for recordings). I was able to watch content from any PC on my network back in the old days with ease, but there is also more power usage involved and even today from what I've seen it is still not as reliable as using a TiVo. IN ten years using TiVos I can count on one hand the number of recordings I've missed. I have had very few issues with the TiVos and what Issues I have had has not made me miss any recordings.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> When shows are broadcast on the major networks there are typically at least 20 minutes of commercials during that hour.


Actually, they're less than that. A typical one-hour broadcast show has about 42-45 minutes of program material with the remainder taken up by commercials, so it's more like 15-18 minutes of commercials per hour.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Right, but at least with broadcast and a DVR you can skip them. Hulu's ads are unskippable.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Fofer said:


> Right, but at least with broadcast and a DVR you can skip them. Hulu's ads are unskippable.


And that's exactly why I won't watch Hulu or any other streaming service that injects commercials into the program. What's the point of using a DVR if you're going to sit through commercials? While I find that I tend to watch more TV with a DVR than before, I'm actually watching more program content in less time. I can watch four 1-hour shows in a 3-hour time period with no commercials. That gives me an extra hour back to do other things.

I have an app on my HTPC that maps all of the commercials and allows me to skip past them with a single button press on the remote or I can allow them to be skipped automatically. It's not always 100% accurate so I prefer to use the manual approach.


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## dt100 (Apr 7, 2008)

Thanks for the great info. I certainly appreciate the value of skipping commercials. The responses made me think about my cable bill, which is about $70 per month. I will have to examine whether the shows we watch are available on OTA stations. I saw that in January Boxee will offer OTA reception, which I think will include recording? Definitely a somewhat overwhelming task to learn all about what is available now.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

dt100 said:


> Thanks for the great info. I certainly appreciate the value of skipping commercials. The responses made me think about my cable bill, which is about $70 per month. I will have to examine whether the shows we watch are available on OTA stations. I saw that in January Boxee will offer OTA reception, which I think will include recording? Definitely a somewhat overwhelming task to learn all about what is available now.


So far Boxee has only announced realtime viewing. They have not announced a recording option. The said they might make one available if there is the demand for it.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

I love my Tivos (HD & Premiere).

Easy to supplement OTA shows recorded on the Tivo with commercial-free shows purchased from Amazon.

However, I did notice the ATSC tuner in my new HDTV is much more sensitive than the ATSC tuners in either Tivo.

I can pick up 4 add'l channels directly on the HDTV that neither Tivo can tune.

Do ATSC tuners fail over time? 

I've got another TivoHD I could try via an online ESN switch.

I wonder if in the future it will be worth it to build an HTPC just for better OTA performance...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The ATSC tuners in Tivos seem to be included as an afterthought and are generally inferior to ATSC tuners available for PCs. I built my first HTPC strictyly for OTA recording when I was subscribed to DirecTV many years ago (DirecTV didn't offer all of my locals). I was not only able to get all of my locals (Baltimore) using the HTPC but I was also able to get all locals from a nearby market (Washington, D.C.) as well. The OTA HD picture quality surpassed the mpeg2 offerings from DirecTV and I was able to free up my DirecTivo tuners for recording other non-OTA channels. When I switched to FIOS I continued using the HTPC for locals even though both the Baltimore and D.C. locals are available on FIOS. I also switched to using S3 Tivos, but only for FIOS channels.


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## forum1 (May 25, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> IN ten years using TiVos I can count on one hand the number of recordings I've missed. I have had very few issues with the TiVos and what Issues I have had has not made me miss any recordings.


I used to be able to say the same, until I purchased the two Premier XL units I have. On more than one software upgrade that TiVo forced down I ended up with random reboots that hosed various recordings. One such upgrade was in place for a few months and during that time the botched recording count went well beyond what one could count on two hands. If I could have downgraded the software I would have in a heartbeat. Finally TiVo got an update down that stopped the reboot insanity, but of course caused some other issues. Anyway, even without these issues, the sluggishness and incomplete nature of the HDUI are huge problems for me. The Premier box was marketed and sold as having a fast HD UI. A year and a half later I am still waiting for this promise to be met.

Im glad you are happy with your Series 4 TiVos. I wish I could say the same about mine.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

It's really strange how some users are plagued by reboots on the Premieres, there seems to be no particular reason why it's only affecting a subset of them.

This should be a super-high priority issue for Tivo to fix, including automatic logging of failures to Tivo for analysis. That may or may not be going on, but the reboots have been happening for some time now on the Premieres with no fix in sight - people have reported them with the sw rev just released.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's really strange how some users are plagued by reboots on the Premieres, there seems to be no particular reason why it's only affecting a subset of them.
> 
> This should be a super-high priority issue for Tivo to fix, including automatic logging of failures to Tivo for analysis. That may or may not be going on, but the reboots have been happening for some time now on the Premieres with no fix in sight - people have reported them with the sw rev just released.


I have 4 TPs (with hard drive upgrades) and never had a random re-boot, I use to get the opening dance a few times, but even that has stopped after 14.9.2.2.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's really strange how some users are plagued by reboots on the Premieres, there seems to be no particular reason why it's only affecting a subset of them.
> 
> This should be a super-high priority issue for Tivo to fix, including automatic logging of failures to Tivo for analysis. That may or may not be going on, but the reboots have been happening for some time now on the Premieres with no fix in sight - people have reported them with the sw rev just released.


Actually I would say the first thing is to figure out if the problem is hardware or software related. I have had rebooting issues with my Series 3 TiVos in the past - ended up being hardware.

My Original Series 3 HD had 2 hardware issues. First I found it really dislike a powered antenna splitter I was using when I switch to a no powered splitter the reboots stopped (for awhile). When they started again it ended up being the eSata cord on the WD 1TB external storage. Any movement (including anything that caused the cabinet to vibrate at all) caused a reboot. Finally the unit would not boot and find the external storage, I replaced the eSata cable and all is well again.

My TiVo HD had reboot issues - they all stopped when I replaced the internal drive and WD external storage I was using with a new internal drive at least until the new Internal drive went bad . On second new internal drive and all is well again.

So do the people with rebooting Premieres have a hardware issue or software issue? Frankly if I had one and it was under warranty I would tell TiVo it was defective and demand they replace it.


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## forum1 (May 25, 2011)

lessd said:


> I have 4 TPs (with hard drive upgrades) and never had a random re-boot, I use to get the opening dance a few times, but even that has stopped after 14.9.2.2.


Yes. So we'll put you solidly in the "lucky to have never seen this issue" group. I am in the "it used to happen to me but right now the version of software TiVo forced on to my boxes seems to be stable" group. As slowbiscuit mentioned, there are people that have reported reboot issues with the latest released software. As slowbiscuit also mentioned, this should be a high-priority for TiVo. Then again, this should have never made it into released software for a DVR or any appliance type device where the hardware and software ecosystem is so tightly controlled by the manufacturer. Quality Assurance at TiVo has clearly gone by the wayside.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't recall having reboot issues on any of my older Tivos that weren't related to a hardware issue or corrupted software due to bad clusters on the hard drive. I do recall having issues with my S3 Tivos whereby they would reboot randomly at different times of the day and usually when I was in the middle of watching a program. I found it to be extremely annoying and was one of the things that pushed me closer to using my WMC PC full-time. I don't recall which OS version(s) this occurred with and I don't know if it still occurs since I rarely use my Tivo these days. I'm sure if it still happened the wife would let me know about it since she uses it more than me. I assumed the reboot issue was finally fixed in a later OS update.

One of the things that has always bugged me about my Tivos is that they took forever to boot up. They are pitifully underpowered and slow machines. I can't speak for the HD, Premiere, or Elite, but anything prior to them always took much longer to boot than my Win 7 HTPC.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> Way less commercials than broadcast. Way less. I use hulu+ regularly for some shows. For a popular show like Grey's Anatomy, they have the most commercials on Hulu+ and that is maybe 7 to 9 minutes. When shows are broadcast on the major networks there are typically at least 20 minutes of commercials during that hour.
> For other shows there could only be a few minutes of the commercials on Hulu+.
> I don't mind the commercials as too much on Hulu as long as they are only 30 seconds or less. It's the ones that are a minute long that I don't like.
> 
> ...


Perhaps way more was the wrong way to put it. More annoying might be better. In the short time we tested Hulu, it annoyed me that the commercials got more frequent as the show progressed, perhaps this made it seem like there were more commercials.

-Ted


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## forum1 (May 25, 2011)

atmuscarella said:


> Actually I would say the first thing is to figure out if the problem is hardware or software related. I have had rebooting issues with my Series 3 TiVos in the past - ended up being hardware.
> 
> My Original Series 3 HD had 2 hardware issues. First I found it really dislike a powered antenna splitter I was using when I switch to a no powered splitter the reboots stopped (for awhile). When they started again it ended up being the eSata cord on the WD 1TB external storage. Any movement (including anything that caused the cabinet to vibrate at all) caused a reboot. Finally the unit would not boot and find the external storage, I replaced the eSata cable and all is well again.
> 
> ...


Atmuscarella, I'm sorry to hear about all the issues you've had to grapple with on your Series 3 units.

In the case of the powered antenna splitter, I find it so strange that the TiVos are known for having such trouble with incoming video signals that they reboot. Maybe the root cause is some junk hardware/firmware inside a chip on the TiVo that causes a non-maskable interrupt and thus the OS crashes. Of course this shouldn't be happening. If there is a problem with an incoming video signal it should not cause the box to reboot. The OS should remain up and running and simply report an issue with the signal. I find it absurd that so many of the troubleshooting steps and even the scripts that the TiVo support people follow scrutinize video signals for reboot symptoms. This alone tells me there are underlying flaws with TiVo's hardware/firmware/software.

As for the storage issues, of course all bets are off when a drive fails or you have a bad data cable that affects the system partition. Although, I will say that I hate how external drives are handled by TiVo. The OS should be fine if the internal drive is working and simply report an error with the external drive if it is not. Maybe certain recordings will be inaccessible, fine. But to say the external drive is an integral part of the system, and if it is not working the whole thing reboots, is just scary. That is why I refuse to add external storage to a TiVo.

As for the Series 4 Premier reboots, I can't speak for everyone, but there are a lot of people who have been reasonably, if not extremely, thorough in their analysis of software issues. For me, all the random reboots came after a software push from TiVo and finally went away with a subsequent software push from TiVo.

What really drove me nuts, besides the errant reboots, was the way TiVo tech support handled it. Initially I spoke with someone who seemed to be technically competent and motivated enough to work on the issue with me, write it up, and supposedly have engineering look into it. At that time there was no question that it was a software issue. A month or two later I had no resolution and when I contacted TiVo again I got someone who immediately jumped to the conclusion that both my units had defective hardware. Of course I found this highly suspicious, telling them that I was hesitant to throw new hardware at an issue that only started when new software came down. I however gave them the benefit of the doubt, as they made it sound like the new software might be exposing a hardware issue that the previous software would not. Of course they could not tell me exactly what hardware was being exercised that previously was not. I was ready to start the replacement process they insisted was the solution.

Then I found out they weren't going to do this at no cost to me and how much they wanted to charge me for refurbished units and how much more they wanted to charge me for brand new units. At that point I decided I better stick with my initial instinct and started asking more questions about this specific hardware issue they suspected. I was thinking, silently in my head, that if in fact the issue at hand is hardware but only exposed by revised software that quite possibly the hardware issue existed from day one and that if the TiVo box had a manufacturer's defect it should be covered under warranty, no matter how old the unit. Of course the folks at TiVo couldn't describe anything to me regarding a known hardware issue, even with an escalation to a more senior support person. All they could come up with was that if I had already gone through the standard troubleshooting and it still had random reboots that there must be a hardware problem that happened to manifest, on both units, coincidently at the same time the new software came down.

At that point I reiterated to them that I would be happy to go back to the previous version of software if they would give me some way of doing so. If the software downgrade worked then I would at least have confirmation that the new software is the trigger and I would be happy to work with an expert TiVo engineer on the next steps to root cause analysis. Of course there was no progress on this front. So we went back and fourth on various points and I finally told them they either did not know what they were talking about or were hiding something and that either way I was not going to give them any more money until I could speak to someone who could intelligently explain what the suspect hardware issue is. Silence. Even the crickets stopped.

Then a month or so later a new version of software was pushed down and my random reboots went away. I am so glad I didn't spend the money to replace my units that as far as I am concerned are fine hardware wise. Unfortunately, I am sure it is only a matter of time before some new software comes down and the TiVo support people want to blame hardware issues on software bugs.


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