# A hopeful sign for HDdirecTivo



## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

The head of Tivo says he's hopeful of Tivo restoring ties with Directv when Malone takes over later this year. He said that he has friends at Liberty that love Tivo. 
Maybe I'll be able to keep my Directivo HD after all. 
I had read earlier that the ownership change should be complete by July.


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## supasta (May 6, 2006)

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=354424


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Cudahy said:


> Maybe I'll be able to keep my Directivo HD after all.


It still can't decode MPEG4 or see the new satellites. So you'll still need an H20 or HR20 to get the new HD.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

The question is why can't someone fix the 6.3d issues (reboots, missed recordings). Someone writes the code, someone schedules the updates to D* customers. IMO, one or both of those involved just does not care anymore.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

rmassey said:


> The question is why can't someone fix the 6.3d issues (reboots, missed recordings). Someone writes the code, someone schedules the updates to D* customers. IMO, one or both of those involved just does not care anymore.


Sorry about your problems with 6.3d, but my HR10 is working just fine with 6.3d.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

We'd have to get a new HDdirectivo if a new agreement is reached but I think that's Ok with anyone who wants to stick with both Tivo and Directv as we go HD. 
I think the key is whether Malone was ever hooked on Tivo.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

JimSpence said:


> Sorry about your problems with 6.3d, but my HR10 is working just fine with 6.3d.


mine work OK 'most' of the time. It's not chronic for me, but I have been bit by both problems a few times.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> It still can't decode MPEG4 or see the new satellites. So you'll still need an H20 or HR20 to get the new HD.


I think that may be fairly obvious to most of us here, but that is still somewhat beside the point, IMHO.

Every HR10 will eventually bite the dust, just like every HR20 and every HR10 and HR20 owner will someday bite the dust. Also, even if a HR10 survives but still outlives its usefullness for a particular user, each of us will eventually have that one potential MPEG-4-only channel that they just won't be able to live without. That could come next year or 4 years from now for them, depending upon their personal tipping point, but it will come for each of us, more than likely. For me, it would have to take FX, SCIFI, and USA having more than 50% of their fare in HD, so I think I can breathe easy for some time, actually.

But with this new development, being faced with the grim reality that the HR10 has a finite shelf life is now accompanied with the realistic hope of an acceptable upgrade path (a M4 DirecTivo) instead of all of the current choices. Choices which many of us deem totally unacceptable (read: anything other than the HR10). IMHO, that is the point.

John Malone (and Tom Rogers) should also take note that many of us are willing to pay a premium for that upgrade path.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> I think that may be fairly obvious to most of us here, but that is still somewhat beside the point, IMHO.


I took the OP to mean that if Tivo and DirecTV started working together again that his HR10 was somehow saved. It's not and there are still many, many people that still don't understand what the MPEG4 conversion means (as seen by tons of posts to that fact on AVS and other forums).

Just simply trying to educate those people.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

If Malone has used Tivo and wants to make more money he'll let Tivo sell an update for a premium.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

Cudahy said:


> If Malone has used Tivo and wants to make more money he'll let Tivo sell an update for a premium.


Then why do I pay DirecTV a DVR service fee?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Give me an upgrade path with a Tivo and I may re-consider leaving. Right now, I'm looking for an alternative.


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## sgndave (Jan 16, 2002)

rminsk said:


> Then why do I pay DirecTV a DVR service fee?


'cause D* loves to charge users for everything they can. The current DVR service fee applies no matter what DVR you use. The suggestion is that D* could do what Comcast is doing - offer both Tivo DVR service and non-Tivo DVR service, and charge the customer more for the Tivo service than they do for the non-Tivo service.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

supasta said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=354424


Hey folks, did you click the link above? There's already a discussion on this topic, so add your voices to it!


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> But with this new development, being faced with the grim reality that the HR10 has a finite shelf life is now accompanied with the realistic hope of an acceptable upgrade path (a M4 DirecTivo) instead of all of the current choices. Choices which many of us deem totally unacceptable (read: anything other than the HR10). IMHO, that is the point.
> 
> John Malone (and Tom Rogers) should also take note that many of us are willing to pay a premium for that upgrade path.


The fact that this is even the remotest of possibilities ...after reading many a post on this forum stating "MPEG4 DTiVo will never happen, get used to it (paraphrasing) ..." is truly exciting.

I intended on holding on to my HR10's for a while anyway, and would welcome having a 'choice' of HD DVR's.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

I still find it amuzing that the CEO of Tivo simply saying that perhaps DirecTV might talk to them again translates to "Tivo is coming back or will be on the DVR + receivers". Simply amuzing.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

It could be because most of us on this forum enjoy Tivo and are not looking forward to the alternatives being offered by Direct that you seem to love so much.

What gets me is why there hasn't been a class action lawsuit against D* for putting out a product like the HR20 and calling in a DVR. That would imply that it could do basic functions, but as we all know, a few months ago at least that was not possible. Then D* seemed to hold people to a 2 yr lease even when the bloody thing didn't perform the most basic functions.

I'm amazed at you guys for putting up with that kind of service. But instead, you seam to tout all of the niceties of functions not working and maybe they will in the future.

It's quite clear that Direct released a product way ahead of it's time and that the product is below the quality of what most of us have come to expect in Tivo.

So, I am quite excited even about a rumor - it gives me hope - hope that I will have an alternative to the inferior products that you guys seem to accept without cause for concern.

My suggestion to you is if you don't find anything exciting in a rumor, then maybe you should spend more of your time on the forum that you seem to love so much. Folks here are interested in quality products. You never seem to have anything good to say about Tivo anyway.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> I still find it amuzing that the CEO of Tivo simply saying that perhaps DirecTV might talk to them again translates to "Tivo is coming back or will be on the DVR + receivers". Simply amuzing.


Always makes me happy to amuse...



"G-13....that's G-13."
"I-27.....tha's an I-27."


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## bpratt (Nov 20, 2004)

RS4 said:


> It could be because most of us on this forum enjoy Tivo and are not looking forward to the alternatives being offered by Direct that you seem to love so much.
> 
> What gets me is why there hasn't been a class action lawsuit against D* for putting out a product like the HR20 and calling in a DVR. That would imply that it could do basic functions, but as we all know, a few months ago at least that was not possible. Then D* seemed to hold people to a 2 yr lease even when the bloody thing didn't perform the most basic functions.
> 
> ...


Have you considered the "guys" making these posts are D* employees being paid to make us TiVo lovers believe the HR20 is a good product?


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

bingo


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Or perhaps you should consider that only a few people have problems?

I've had my HR20 since September. Only missed a couple recordings, both on the same night, about 8 months ago. I've had a couple lockups in the last couple months, however I have been running beta software most of the time. To be expected. Other then that, no problems, has recorded everything I ask it to. Same for hundreds of others.

What I don't do is claim that it's perfect and I also don't claim that people don't have problems.

Same as you shouldn't claim that every single user with an HR20 has problems. 

Just not the facts. 

I can quickly point out many threads right in this very forum that might give an uninformed person the impression that the HR10 is riddled with problems. Why? Because people with problems post on forums trying to get help or to vent. Not often do you get people coming to a forum to post "wow, this thing is awesome!" 

If you've been on the net more then 6 months you should know this.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

bpratt said:


> Have you considered the "guys" making these posts are D* employees being paid to make us TiVo lovers believe the HR20 is a good product?


Maybe you should actually try it if you'd get your head out of the sand.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

fasTLane said:


> bingo


Hold on folks....let's check his card to make certain this is a real bingo.....


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Look guys. If there was an MPEG4 Tivo for DirecTV I'd have it. But there isn't one and believe me, there won't be one.

So for me *content* is KING and the overriding factor of anything. DirecTV offers me the best content for the price of any of my other choices (Dish or Charter). Thus DirecTV gets my business. To get the HD I want I need an MPEG4 DVR, the HR20. Thus I got one *with an open mind*.

Sure there are trade offs.
Dual Live Buffers or Red Wings in HD....
Advanced wishlists or SciFi in HD.......

Content wins out every time....for me.

We all have to make that choice.

If content isn't as important to you or another provider can offer you better then by all means, jump at it.

Even if cable were an option I'd have this to choose from:
S3 Tivo for mega $$$$ and $13+ a month and the fact it will be obsolete very soon as cable moves to Switched Video
OR $4.99 a month for the DirecTV DVR which has the same basic functions and records what I ask of it
OR similar priced Dish ViP DVR.

Again, a choice we must all make.

But if people here want to delude themselves into thinking there is more to it then just the CEO of Tivo trying to prop up his stock price when speaking *to investors* then by all means. I wish the best for you.

But I've moved on and things are just fine. I'll be enjoying my interactive Sunday Ticket and 50+ HD channels by years end. And that is what is most important to me, not the OS of the stupid DVR.

And with that I leave you all to argue and hope and I'll go back to answering questions where I can and try to direct people to DBSTalk so that threads about the *big bad evil HR20* won't pollute this forum.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> And that is what is most important to me, not the OS of the stupid DVR.


What is important to me is that a DVR record what I ask it too when I ask it too. The four HR20-700 I have access to have not passed that simple test. As soon as they can go one month without missing a recording or having a short recording then I will be happy.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

It's one thing to argue the merits of one product versus another. I don't think any of us have a problem with that. What we have a problem with is all of the remarks from folks like you telling us how great the HR20 is when we know for a fact that you guys have just been Beta testers plain and simple.

It may be that the HR20 is finally developing into something worth while, but don't come on this site day after day and badmouth the Tivo with the shenanigans that Direct has been pulling on you and tell us how great things are.

I think most of us know when a product is superior over another. Clearly in this case, it appears for the last several months that the HR20 has not worked very well for a huge number of people.

My guess is that you and some others are getting paid a lot of money to come onto this site and tell us how great things are going to be - just wait another 20 minutes - when it's more like 20 months before things start working like they should.

Yeah, if Tivo doesn't get on board with the new ownership of D*, then we will end up with the HR20 or something else, but you'll have a tough time getting me to believe that it will ever be the quality that Tivo is.

The fact of the matter is that D* could have offered it's customers a lot of the options that Tivo had years ago. But instead, they've chosen to ignore the clients that are probably some of their top-tier spenders. Why - arrogance, plain and simple.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

rminsk said:


> What is important to me is that a DVR record what I ask it too when I ask it too. The four HR20-700 I have access to have not passed that simple test. As soon as they can go one month without missing a recording or having a short recording then I will be happy.


Yep, same here. For some reason the HR20 cannot pitch a complete 9 inning game.



bonscott87 said:


> And with that I leave you all to argue and hope and I'll go back to answering questions where I can and try to direct people to DBSTalk so that threads about the *big bad evil HR20* won't pollute this forum.


 Thank you, I think we all appreciate that. Really, all that needs to be said is: "dbstalk.com."


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> but don't come on this site day after day and badmouth the Tivo


So who's badmouthing Tivo? 



> My guess is that you and some others are getting paid a lot of money to come onto this site and tell us how great things are going to be


Maybe in your dreams. Or perhaps mine.  
Might want to look when I joined this forum, way back in October 2000 with a stand alone Tivo that lasted me many good years. As well as several DirecTivo's. I remember being in the Tivo beta test to get the 2nd tuner activated and chatting up with our beloved Richard Bullwinkle from Tivo. Still have 2 DirecTivo's active in my house and they aren't gonig anywhere. And now I have an HR20 and it's been fine. No "beta testing" here other then what I volunteer to do. Maybe I've been lucky, who knows.

But hey, believe what you want. It's a free country.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

"So who's badmouthing Tivo?" You, for one. You have nothing good to say about Tivo and on the contrary you try to tell us how marvelous the HR20 is. Don't you think we're getting a little tired of it? You keep justifying how well everything is with the HR20. Your answer to a guy complaining about a feature on the HR20 that wasn't working was to not use that feature.

At the same time, the first words your wrote on this thread was that the current Tivo wouldn't work with Mpeg4 - nothing good to say about Tivo and lies about the HR20.

Maybe you should consider giving us a break for a while.


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> Look guys. If there was an MPEG4 Tivo for DirecTV I'd have it. But there isn't one and believe me, there won't be one.


You can't possibly make that statement with such certainty. Yeah we all know your wishful OPINION, but you have no idea what Malone may or may not do. Of course, neither does anyone else here. But for those of us who'd like to see a new DirecTiVo, it's a nice thought. My personal favorite option would be a full featured stand alone capable of accessing D* programming, analagous to a Series3 with CableCards. Let TiVo control the programming, testing, feature-set, support, etc, and let D* handle the billing and share the profits between them. Win-win. D* would even continue to market their own attempt at a dvr, for those less demanding users. Probably won't happen.....


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## bpratt (Nov 20, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> Maybe you should actually try it if you'd get your head out of the sand.


I have tried it. I don't like it as much as TiVo but I may actually get one if D* delivers the HD content they have promised. My point is: This is a TiVo forum. If I want to learn more about the HR20, I can go to the HR20 forum. Why do some of you who own HR20s feel you need to post in the TiVo forum how great the HR20 is?


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> I took the OP to mean that if Tivo and DirecTV started working together again that his HR10 was somehow saved. It's not and there are still many, many people that still don't understand what the MPEG4 conversion means (as seen by tons of posts to that fact on AVS and other forums).
> 
> Just simply trying to educate those people.


Sadly, it apears that you are correct. Lots of folks don't get it. I can't disagree with your sentiment or your assessment of that situation, and your post seems reasonable under that reality.

But I wasn't really replying that it was beside the point to the OP and others (it wasn't), I was replying that that small point in a much larger issue is beside the point for me, and for most of us here on this forum (which I stand by). If folks discuss this issue yet don't mention that the situation means there is now the real possibility of an upgrade path where once there was none, they've essentially buried the lead.

I certainly didn't mean to co-opt your post, but I admit to taking your post and using it as a jumping off point for what seems to be the really relevant point in all this. Please take no offense, as that's kind of the way these forums work. But thanks for lobbing me the softball.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

ad301 said:


> You can't possibly make that statement with such certainty.


OK. How about this one... "It would be 2 years from now before Tivo could possibly form an agreement with DTV, actually make a new DTivo, test it, and ship it." By then who will care?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> "So who's badmouthing Tivo?" You, for one. You have nothing good to say about Tivo


Please tell me what I've said that's bad about Tivo? I don't recall anything. As I said, I have several Tivo's myself and have nothing but good things to say about them other then that they are slow.



> You keep justifying how well everything is with the HR20.


So I'm supposed to ignore the fact that everything *is* well with my HR20 and many others? Am I supposed to not inform? Is that a crime? If so have a mod ban me, please.



> Your answer to a guy complaining about a feature on the HR20 that wasn't working was to not use that feature.


Is it wrong to say that a feature on the HR20 isn't working (gasp!) until other receivers get updated and in the meantime you can't use said feature? Wow, are you saying that I said something bad about the HR20 and I'm admitting it? Praise the lord...the HR20 isn't perfect (not sure anybody has every claimed that anyway).



> At the same time, the first words your wrote on this thread was that the current Tivo wouldn't work with Mpeg4 - nothing good to say about Tivo


Are you saying that Tivo *does* work with MPEG4? Maybe I missed a memo.

And stating a fact is having nothing good to say? Maybe I missed that day in class.



> and lies about the HR20.


What lies. Please specify with proof.



> Maybe you should consider giving us a break for a while.


People are asking questions about the HR20 *here*. I try to answer them and direct them to a friendly place where they won't be attacked on site like a PC guy walking into a Mac store. So until the Mods simply delete or close all threads about the HR20 are people that find this forum supposed to be left in a vacuum? Perhaps.


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> People are asking questions about the HR20 *here*. I try to answer them and direct them to a friendly place where they won't be attacked on site like a PC guy walking into a Mac store. So until the Mods simply delete or close all threads about the HR20 are people that find this forum supposed to be left in a vacuum? Perhaps.


Sounds like a great idea to me. Stop all discussion of the HR20 here, it simply does not belong in a TiVo group. The HR20 is _NOT_ a TiVo.

By this point there is a wealth of info for anyone looking for info, including your plug for that other forum, available if they simply do a search. Face it, many of us do not like the HR20, do not want the HR20, may have it forced down their throats, or like me of simply leave D when the HR20 is a fact of D life. So I add my voice to the others that say 'take it somewhere else" to the HR20 fanboy attitude.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bonscott87 said:


> So for me *content* is KING and the overriding factor of anything. DirecTV offers me the best content for the price of any of my other choices (Dish or Charter). Thus DirecTV gets my business. To get the HD I want I need an MPEG4 DVR, the HR20. Thus I got one *with an open mind*.


Actually, you didn't have an open mind. You just told us as much. You got the HR20 knowing that DirecTV is your choice for programming. So you were going to have to accept whatever they gave you. It really doesn't much matter how good or bad the HR20 is, you're going to live with it.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

nrc said:


> Actually, you didn't have an open mind. You just told us as much. You got the HR20 knowing that DirecTV is your choice for programming. So you were going to have to accept whatever they gave you. It really doesn't much matter how good or bad the HR20 is, you're going to live with it.


Perhaps I should clarify. If it *didn't* work then by all means I'd be looking at moving to Dish or cable, Sunday Ticket be dammed. If it *didn't* do what it's meant to do, record my programs, then yes, D* would be bye bye.

But given that it *does* work (for me) then it's simply a matter of UI preference and in that area I have an open mind and at the end of the day I could care less what the OS or UI is, so long as it records my stuff.


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

A lot of us own both HR10s and HR20s. I come here as I have been for years to keep up to date with my HR10s. There seem to be quite a few threads concerning the HR20, in fact it would be pretty quiet here some days without them. I will not post anything here about them anymore, only the Tivos. This forum has always been great and I hope it will continue to be. I'm just not sure that chasing people away is the best way to go.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

I have no problems with honest comparisons of equipment. But, this is a Tivo forum and most of us want to know how Tivo is doing, what the rumors are, if there is a possibility of getting together with Direct, etc.

Some people just come in here and try to hijack this forum into thinking that Direct has a terrific replacement and we're fools for even being here at all discussing a dying product.

I'm trying to decide what I'm going to do, along with a lot of other folks. I no longer have a commitment to Direct and have just canceled my NFLST (not paying $350), so I have freedom to look around. But I prefer finding a service that will allow me to use a Tivo branded product because it has all of the features that I like.

My point to all of this is for those of us who want to discuss the Tivo possibilities, this is a great spot. We don't need other people jamming other products down our throats, especially something that isn't ready for prime time.


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> OK. How about this one... "It would be 2 years from now before Tivo could possibly form an agreement with DTV, actually make a new DTivo, test it, and ship it." By then who will care?


I will, for one, and I suspect quite a few others, as well. And 2 years is just a wild guess. Could be longer, could be shorter. That doesn't matter. The market for a TiVo branded D* receiver won't just completely disappear. These things all have quite a long lead time. Heck, Comcast and TiVo have been developing their software solution for Motorola boxes for what, 3 years now? That investment should start returning dividends for both parties in the coming months.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

Even if the the HR20 becomes fully functional a lot of Tivo users would still prefer Tivo for a variety of reasons. The reason I'm somewhat hopeful that the Tivo executive was not just blowing smoke is that Malone could actually make more money by making such a deal(I think that's his primary interest). There is also a reasonable possibility that he learned to DVR with Tivo. 
I still don't know when the transfer will be complete. I saw a July date a few months ago but haven't seen anything since then.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Malone only makes more money if he were bleeding users because of no Tivo. However if DirecTV keeps adding a quarter million users a quarter, HR20 selling like hotcakes and churn is the lowest it's been in years (all from the lastest financial calls) and SD DirecTivo's haven't been available for 2 years now, HD version for almost a year.....then what is Malone's insentive? Is keeping a few thousand die hard Tivo users worth millions in investment back in Tivo?

That's the question you have to ask yourself. Going back to Tivo has nothing to do with Tivo being better or not. It's all about the bottom line exactly as you say. So if the bottom line is doing just fine then where is the insentive?


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

Did you grill Brian Roberts on his incentives before he made the deal with TiVo? He must have had some valid reasons for doing it. If Malone finds similar valid reasons, he'll do it. If not, he won't. Nothing you say, or I say, or anyone else here says, will change that. It's just a fun diversion, for some of us die hard TiVo users, to speculate on it.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

There are plenty of reasons for the two companies to hook up. For one thing, my guess is that most of the HD Tivo clients spend more then the average client, so they don't want to lose them. Secondly, almost everyone knows that the current status of the Direct DVR is very shaky and does not enjoy a good reputation in spite what others may tell us, so Direct knows they have an up hill battle winning a lot of these customers. Thirdly, there may be joint opportunities down the road for both companies to collaborate on additional products. Lastly, I'm sure they can come up with financial benefits for both companies as they did in the past.


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## llurkin (Apr 28, 2005)

This sounds like a sketch written by Charles Shultz about someone trying to take away the blue blanket that linus has.. Always good for a laugh. 

Although, Linus never grew up!

And the creator of the comic died.

And so, life goes on.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Peanuts was NOT created by Charles Shultz. 



Spoiler



He was Charles Schulz.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> OK. How about this one... "It would be 2 years from now before Tivo could possibly form an agreement with DTV...


Companies large and small come to agreements every day, often after only a 1-hour meeting. If it's in the interests of both parties, these sorts of things can and do move very swiftly.



> ...actually make a new DTivo, test it, and ship it."...


The Tivo platform is modular. For instance, the only significant difference between a HR10 and a S3 is that one has DVB tuner modules in place of the QAM tuners and CC modules, plus each runs a slightly different OS version. IOW, 98% of the R&D for a M4 DTivo has already been done during the S3 and HR10 development phases.

MPEG4 tuners are not exactly cutting-edge, they have probably been available to Tivo for some time, since they are readily available to the HR20 manufacturing group. Tivo could probably easily develop and ship a compatible M4 DirecTivo before the leaves turn, even if they start from scratch tomorrow. But they are not starting from scratch at all.

Thing is, a M4 Tivo that has DVB tuners could have been in development for some time, waiting just for this opportunity. This sort of speculative R&D is common, especially on a modular platform where it is mostly a matter of assembling the ready-made modules rather than reinventing the wheel. There could be one-offs in alpha testing and in the living rooms of Tivo or DBS or cable executives right now.



> ...By then who will care?


 Since this could all happen as much as years before the Tivo/DTV agreement ends or before the HR10's start to die out or even before there is significant HD content exclusive to M4, anyone who is looking at a legitimate upgrade path would probably care.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

Just in case it doesn't happen:
Now that I'm getting a few NESN HD games a week with my 250 I'm Ok with the 11 HD channels we get. Adding all those new HD channels on the other satellites should take the pressure off of the mpeg2 channels. As long as they leave the existing channels on there I can wait.


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## BillsIn05 (Aug 14, 2006)

Wish I could get NESN HD


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## designr (Nov 16, 2002)

For me, it's a horse race between UVerse from AT&T and DirecTV.

My D* contract is up. UVerse is going to roll into my neighborhood in the next few months. It comes down to a horse race between them:

UVerse is way out ahead on pricing when I bundle my phone, high-speed DSL, more HD channels and more channels that I actually would watch.

On the downside, UVerse has only 1 HD stream at a time (2 HD steams mid-2008). Does not currently have a TiVo option (may change).

But D* is killing my HD TiVo (slowly with neglect).

If I can't have TiVo, UVerse wins on price. If I can get TiVo from both, UVerse wins on price. If I can get TiVo from D* but not UVerse, D* has a chance.

We'll see who wins....


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## dtebbe (Aug 18, 2003)

RS4 said:


> What gets me is why there hasn't been a class action lawsuit against D* for putting out a product like the HR20 and calling in a DVR. That would imply that it could do basic functions, but as we all know, a few months ago at least that was not possible. Then D* seemed to hold people to a 2 yr lease even when the bloody thing didn't perform the most basic functions.


Class action lawsuits are stupid. All they do is make the lawyers that file them rich. I can see the settlement now.. each customer would get a $5 credit on thier bill and 12 PPV movie coupons, meanwhile the attorneys that filed the suit would walk away with a cool $50 mil in legal fees. Meanwhile the DVR would still suck.

DT


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## dtebbe (Aug 18, 2003)

designr said:


> For me, it's a horse race between UVerse from AT&T and DirecTV.


Everytime I read posts like this I wonder if the person who writes it has ever been an AT&T customer. After the way AT&T screwed me around on long distance when I was in the service and had no choice but to use them, it will be a cold, rainy day in hell before they ever willingly recieve another penney from me. Same goes for AOL and Comcast.

DT


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## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

dtebbe said:


> Everytime I read posts like this........ it will be a cold, rainy day in hell before they ever willingly recieve another penney from me. Same goes for AOL and Comcast.
> 
> DT


Funny thing is we all have stories like that. DirecTV is on my list. No Tivo - NO DirecTV.

Bonanza


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

+1


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

Content is KING

To each his own with the DVR wars, but my HR-20 is working GREAT and has not missed anything. RS4 loves his TiVo. Can't see past anything but TiVO, and will not spend a penny on anything unless it has a TiVo Sticker on it. Even if there were better products then TiVo, many on this forum would not be interested in hearing about them. They are die hards who have become so enamored with a product that they can't see what the reality of the situation is. I'm sorry I have to poo poo the hopes and dreams of an Mpeg4 TiVo coming to DTV, but it's not going to happen. In my opinion TiVo is on its way out. DVR's are now Standard equipment with many content providers, and the need for a third party DVR from TiVo is not there anymore. I know this is not popular with the board, but that is the reality of the situation. ( If I'm lying here, please provide market share gains for TiVo and I will gladly rescind the comment. Everything I can find or read on TiVo shows the decline of sales and subs / month )

RS4,

I'm not trying to "sour" the forum. I owned a Stand Alone Series 2 for 5 years. Worked great for me, and had no complaints. I made the switch to HD with DTV and got the HR-20 and canceled my TiVo service. I'm not "bad mouthing" TiVo, I'm informing the reader who is in a similar situation that the HR-20 is a capable product. If you value your DVR more then your content then so be it. If you can live with a DVR that will record and play back the content you told it to record, then the HR-20 is more then capable. 

Last point,

If you TiVo folks want to get the DTV and HR-20 folks to go away you need to do a better job of marketing your product on the boards. When I post a response that provokes thought about TiVo vs any other DVR, I get garbage back. Provide the reader with an answer that he/she can't ignore. State a fact that TiVo can give me local weather and traffic, and the other DVR's can't. If that is a feature that a reader can't live without then TiVo will be the clear winner. When I challenge the board to compare basic DVR functionality I get hate responses. The reason is because this is a TiVo board, and I would expect that. The reason I post is to provide other people who may not be enamored with TiVo to think and look at the alternatives. I try to inform the reader about TiVo costs associated with services. What does the extra premium get you with TiVo? If basic DVR functions are equal then what added benefits are left? If these benefits convince the masses to join TiVo then you will be winning the war. However, if my points of contention hit a little too close to home then maybe I'm causing you to think??


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

bpratt said:


> Have you considered the "guys" making these posts are D* employees being paid to make us TiVo lovers believe the HR20 is a good product?


ROFL - sorry, HR20 here, it works, HR10 short recordings, spontaneous reboots, junk 6.3X software. No I am not paid by D*,would not take a salary cut.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

sjberra said:


> ROFL - sorry, HR20 here, it works, HR10 short recordings, spontaneous reboots, junk 6.3X software. No I am not paid by D*,would not take a salary cut.


I have an HR10-250 running parallel to an HR20...why? because I don't trust the HR20...so I'm paying for 2 units instead of 1 so I can get mpeg4 eventually...

the HR20 has already had to be reset 3 times (in one week)...lost 2 recordings (they were in the ToDo list and just disappeared)...did not record 3 shows it was supposed to, and records repeats even though it's set to record first run only...

and the GUI is not intuitive to boot...

I would gladly pay more to have an mpeg4 HD Tivo...


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

sjberra said:


> ROFL - sorry, HR20 here, it works, HR10 short recordings, spontaneous reboots, junk 6.3X software.


HR20 short recordings, missing recordings, RBR, no CIR list, ...


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## jrosen1040 (Jan 10, 2004)

dtebbe said:


> Class action lawsuits are stupid. All they do is make the lawyers that file them rich. I can see the settlement now.. each customer would get a $5 credit on thier bill and 12 PPV movie coupons, meanwhile the attorneys that filed the suit would walk away with a cool $50 mil in legal fees. Meanwhile the DVR would still suck.
> 
> DT


Exactly right. Consumers typically get $20 off their next purchase at the same fine establishment that supposedly ripped them off to begin with. The lawyers get millions.


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## davidjplatt (Aug 27, 2003)

I received a phone call with a recorded message from DirecTV that I needed to attach the broadband converters to my HD receivers or soon I would not receive any HD programming.

Strange considering all of my DirecTV equipment is TiVo based and not MPEG-4. I have a Sony SAT-T60, Philips DSR-6000 (both SD DirecTiVos) and two HR10-250 HD DirecTiVos.

When I called in to find out why they had called me to attach BBCs I don't have (and wouldn't work with an HD TiVo from what I had read) they couldn't answer me and I asked for retention. They informed me it was a mistake that I was called and I told them they needed to clean up their act and only call MPEG-4 users. I was then told that I would have to upgrade to HR20 DVRs anyway since THEY ARE TAKING MPEG-2 HD OFF OF THE SATELLITE AT THE END OF THIS YEAR. The HD TiVos will only do OTA HD and SD satellite. Channels 70 - 99 will disappear and be moved to MPEG-4.

They have pissed me of beyond belief - One HD TiVo is 2 years and 1 month old and the other is under 2 years old. Now they are telling me they will basically be obsoleted and I will be forced to go with an inferior product.

We'll have to see if they really cut off the HD on the HD TiVo - that may be the time to switch to Verizon FIOS TV, Cox Cable or Dish Network. I'm tired of spending tons of money on DirecTV and then being orphaned by them and them basically lying to me. I've had DirecTV for well over 10 years and they just may lose me as a customer. I'm not going to spend $100 a month for programming, thousands for equipment and then be told 'screw you' you have to use our inferior POS instead of the best DVR on the planet (that we adopted as our DVR just two years ago for HD).


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## boltjames (Dec 21, 2002)

*RS4:

What gets me is why there hasn't been a class action lawsuit against D* for putting out a product like the HR20 and calling in a DVR. That would imply that it could do basic functions, but as we all know, a few months ago at least that was not possible. Then D* seemed to hold people to a 2 yr lease even when the bloody thing didn't perform the most basic functions.

I'm amazed at you guys for putting up with that kind of service. But instead, you seam to tout all of the niceties of functions not working and maybe they will in the future.*

Do you own an HR20? If you did, you'd realize how ridiculous your rant is.

*It's quite clear that Direct released a product way ahead of it's time and that the product is below the quality of what most of us have come to expect in Tivo.

So, I am quite excited even about a rumor - it gives me hope - hope that I will have an alternative to the inferior products that you guys seem to accept without cause for concern.*

It's June 21, 2007, and if the HR20 had some early issues, I'm oblivious to it. I'm two weeks off my HR10, and while the HR20 isn't as slick as a Tivo, it functions just as well. This is starting to smell of the endless Mac vs. Windows arguments.

*My suggestion to you is if you don't find anything exciting in a rumor, then maybe you should spend more of your time on the forum that you seem to love so much. Folks here are interested in quality products. You never seem to have anything good to say about Tivo anyway.*

Why the violent demeanor? I've loved this forum and the people here for 3+ years and I don't think I should be made to feel unwelcome because I migrated to the HR20 for all the right reasons. Suddenly I'm not interested in "quality products"? I can't be pro-HR20 without being anti-Tivo at the same time? Why?

BJ


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

The one thing that the HR20 does for me is that it makes me appreciate My HR10 TiVo GUI that much more. After dealing with the HR20 GUI, its so refreshing coming back to the TiVo GUI and its ease of use.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

davidjplatt said:


> When I called in to find out why they had called me to attach BBCs I don't have (and wouldn't work with an HD TiVo from what I had read) they couldn't answer me and I asked for retention. They informed me it was a mistake that I was called and I told them they needed to clean up their act and only call MPEG-4 users. I was then told that I would have to upgrade to HR20 DVRs anyway since THEY ARE TAKING MPEG-2 HD OFF OF THE SATELLITE AT THE END OF THIS YEAR. The HD TiVos will only do OTA HD and SD satellite. Channels 70 - 99 will disappear and be moved to MPEG-4.


I'm afraid you spoke to a very misinformed CSR. There is no way DirecTV will shut off existing MPEG2 HD at the end of this year ... there are way too many MPEG2-only HD receivers in existence, and DirecTV would alienate all of those customers immediately by shutting off MPEG2-HD. That's not going to happen.

MPEG2-HD will mist likely be here through at least the end of 2008, but maybe longer. This is my WAG, based on two assumptions: (1) DirecTV doesn't want to lose customers, and (2) in order to meet (1), DirecTV would need to do a massive swap-out of all MPEG2 HD receivers. That will take time.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I agree with Drew...plus, D*'s management has said as much many times...they will not switch off mpeg2 until all their customers have been switched to mpeg4 units...

now...I'm sure the definition of "all" is fluid...if 10 guys refuse to switch units, D* is not going to wait for them...but I say 95% at least would need to be switched before mpeg2 goes dark...

that should be a long time from now...


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

davidjplatt said:


> They have pissed me of beyond belief - One HD TiVo is 2 years and 1 month old and the other is under 2 years old. Now they are telling me they will basically be obsoleted and I will be forced to go with an inferior product.
> 
> We'll have to see if they really cut off the HD on the HD TiVo


David,

Well, this has been the plan all along for over 3 years now so should come as no suprise. Should have thought about moving to cable long ago. It was in fact the reason why I never got an HR10, didn't want to spend $800+ on something I knew would be obsolete as far as HD from the sats.

What you were told is indeed true but the timeline most likely isn't. Drew posted the right idea.

BUT it all depends on when they reach "critical mass" of current MPEG2 HD subs that have an H20 or HR20. HR20's have been a hot selling item and they may already be reaching that critical mass. Add in 80-100 new HD channels that require MPEG4 and you have yourself a quick transition (especially considering they didn't have all that many HD subs to begin with).

However, I agree that the CSR was slightly misinformed. I think what you'll see by the end of the year would be the MPEG2 HD channels *mirrored* on the MPEG4 system but not turned off. Sunday Ticket HD should still be MPE2 (or at least most of it) as there isn't enough time to get everything ready. They have already stated that MLB HD will be MPEG4 only next year and Sunday Ticket HD is most likely also MPEG4 only next year. I'd expect the MPEG2 HD to be shutoff by end of next year at the latest.

Just a WAG but I don't think you can expect MPEG2 HD to survive more then 18 months. And it may go a lot quicker then that. I'd expect first half of 2008 to be the "transition" time to get those last few subs MPEG4 boxes if they want them.


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## davidjplatt (Aug 27, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I agree with Drew...plus, D*'s management has said as much many times...they will not switch off mpeg2 until all their customers have been switched to mpeg4 units...
> 
> now...I'm sure the definition of "all" is fluid...if 10 guys refuse to switch units, D* is not going to wait for them...but I say 95% at least would need to be switched before mpeg2 goes dark...
> 
> that should be a long time from now...


That's not what I perceive from the SEVERAL phone calls to DirecTV. This statement about shutting off the HD MPEG-2 at the end of year was stated by FOUR DirecTV reps to me over the last three days - a retention rep, a retention supervisor, a regular rep and their supervisor. The regular rep thought that "shutting off the MPEG-2 on the HR10-250 by the end of year" was not an accurate statement - until she checked with her supervisor and came back on the line and said "I'm shocked - I was told that the MPEG-2 HD is in fact going away the end of the year assuming we have a successful launch and turn on of DirecTV 10".

The statement was made (by multiple people) that they would swap out MPEG-2 equipment for MPEG-4 equipment for no charge - they already noted my account that I can get 2 HR-20s for no charge including dish installation and any multiswitches required. They also stated that the HR10-250 would work for OTA HD and SD DirecTV. That's it - no HD channels in MPEG-2.

You may be making assumptions that are not accurate. There may be a compelling reason for them to switch everything to MPEG-4 despite the swap costs on equipment. It's possible they might need the capacity for SD channels that is being taken up by HD in MPEG-2.

Don't be surprised if there is a forced switch much like the satellite system that DirecTV bought a number of years ago and the cost of swapping out the old satellite equipment and installed D* equipment necessary was more economical than paying for the extra satellite bandwith.

All bets are off on statements made in the past - remember, many of those statements were made when Newscorp was controlling D*. With Liberty all of that may change.

If DirecTV had a brain they'd acquire TiVo just for their software and talent - and get it to work on an MPEG-4 box with enough memory and powerful enough processor to be the most responsive DVR on the market with the best software.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

I personally wouldn't be surprised by an end of year shutoff at all. Many people have gotten HR20's on their own and if enough already have it wouldn't be too hard to offer free MPEG4 upgrades (which they basically do already) to the few tens of thousands that aren't aware of the switch. Our WAG's of shutoff at the end of next year mainly come from an assumption of needing to get people over to MPEG4 which was assumed to be a slow process. I think there is a good indication that people have been getting HR20s on their own so the hard part for D* is done. Even more so if they have to offer part of NFL ST HD in MPEG4 this year due to increased CBS games, more free equipment.

As for D*'s "inferior" DVR, please only make that statement after you have actually used the HR20 for a while.  There are many threads on that already.


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

Sunday ticket will be Mpeg 2 through January.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

you may be right...but I'll bet money you're not   

wouldn't they need to get D11 up and running as well?

another problem with the timetable of the end of the year: what's the compelling reason for the urgency?

finally: when have CSRs or their supervisors been right about anything? better yet, when has D*'s deadlines ever been met?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> As for D*'s "inferior" DVR, please only make that statement after you have actually used the HR20 for a while.  There are many threads on that already.


ok...I have an HR20...it's inferior. It has its good points and its bad points...but when it comes down to it, I don't trust it to record what I want and I don't trust it to play what I've recorded.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

davidjplatt said:


> [...]If DirecTV had a brain they'd acquire TiVo just for their software and talent - and get it to work on an MPEG-4 box with enough memory and powerful enough processor to be the most responsive DVR on the market with the best software.


So your position is if you were John Malone, you would spend $500-$600 million to acquire TiVo and then pay their engineering team to design a new MPEG-4 box, instead of just continuing to pay the HR20 engineering team to perfect the HR20, which is about 80%-90% done as we speak?

I am the definition of a "TiVo lover". I bought the first TiVo box that came out in 1999. When I switched to sat from cable, I bought Sony SAT-T60 DirecTivos the day they came out, and the HR10-250s the day they came out. And I still use an HDVR2. In my lifetime, I've owned 9 TiVo boxes. I reluctantly swapped my four HR10's for four HR20's in March, because it was the only way I could continue to view YES-HD.

After 3 months of using the HR20, aside from dual buffers and less than stellar MPEG-4 "cruise controls", I don't miss the HR10 at all. In fact, in numerous areas, the HR20 surpasses it in both features and performance. *So much so, that if I was given a choice right now of the HR20 as it is today or an MPEG-4 HR10 running 6.3d, I'm not sure I'd choose the HR10!*

I'd be curious to know what other "long time" HR10 to HR20 converts would decide, if offered this same choice.

/steve


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> As for D*'s "inferior" DVR, please only make that statement after you have actually used the HR20 for a while.  There are many threads on that already.


:Raises hand: 

Most definitely inferior from my experience as well. Has it gotten better? Yep. But I'm sure glad it's not my primary DVR, as it still isn't reliable.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

I can't get locals in HD any other way, so I've had two HR20s since last August and here's the news...


The HR20 doesn't suck. Well, at least it doesn't if you don't actually want to USE it! The updates may help some, but I haven't been able to use HDMI since day one and the video/audio dropouts are SOOOOO irritating!

As for functionality, it works quite well, but given a choice of an HR20 or an MPEG-4 HR10, I wouldn't think twice! I'd even PAY for it.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

TonyTheTiger said:


> I can't get locals in HD any other way, so I've had two HR20s since last August and here's the news...
> 
> The HR20 doesn't suck. Well, at least it doesn't if you don't actually want to USE it! The updates may help some, but I haven't been able to use HDMI since day one and the video/audio dropouts are SOOOOO irritating!
> 
> As for functionality, it works quite well, but given a choice of an HR20 or an MPEG-4 HR10, I wouldn't think twice! I'd even PAY for it.


Okay... now I have to ask.. (Yes, I still come here ever day to read what is going on)
Have you been over to DBSTalk?

And in the threads, asking about HDMI compatibility... have you posted your TV/Model number.... as DirecTV has been SPECIFICALLY targetting TV's that are not functioning via HDMI....

As there are some TV's Makes/Models who's HDMI chipset requires some extra "tweeking" for lack of a better term.

So if you don't want to visit DBSTalk, and create an account.
At least here... Post your Make/Model of your TV, and if you have a manufacturing date, that as well..... and if your TV has a firmware information page in it's menu, a firmware version number would also be helpfull.


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## gworkman (Feb 6, 2006)

Sir_winealot said:


> :Raises hand:
> 
> Most definitely inferior from my experience as well. Has it gotten better? Yep. But I'm sure glad it's not my primary DVR, as it still isn't reliable.


Same Here...
HR20 is in Master Bedroom 
10-250 in Living Room

HR20 missed "America's Got Talent" and Letterman yesterday. The history says "the show became unavailable". It was available, because Tivo recorded them from the same antenna.

Nice box - sure. Reliable...no. Their half-a'd attempt at Music and Photos is also very disappointing. I know...a new GUI is coming out for that piece, but relying on a VIIV platform is extremely disappointing. Hacked Tivo with Music and Photos using JavaHMO is a much easier and more reliable.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

gworkman said:


> HR20 missed "America's Got Talent" and Letterman yesterday. The history says "the show became unavailable".


That bites. I have HDTivo'd first run Letterman for 2+ years with zero defects.

Must Have Letterman.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> Okay... now I have to ask.. (Yes, I still come here ever day to read what is going on)
> Have you been over to DBSTalk?
> 
> And in the threads, asking about HDMI compatibility... have you posted your TV/Model number.... as DirecTV has been SPECIFICALLY targetting TV's that are not functioning via HDMI....
> ...


Yes, I'm a member over there and have been for some time. I've followed the HDMI threads and still get nothing. I know my cable is good as I use it for my upconverting DVD player on the same TV. I have a Vizio 32" LCD I bought about a year or so ago - don't have the manufacture date or firmware at the moment.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

I keep wondering while reading these posts how many 10-250's are out there. If the number is significant(+100,000?) why would Malone turn down an offer from Tivo to at least offer Tivo mpeg4? I think nearly all Tivo lovers would be willing to pay an extra hundred or so to Directv to get one. Especially since a lot these users would quit Directv rather than giving up Tivo.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> As for D*'s "inferior" DVR, please only make that statement after you have actually used the HR20 for a while.


OK. I'll bite... D* has an "inferior" DVR. I have four under my control and they are still not as reliable as my HR10.


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## boltjames (Dec 21, 2002)

sluciani said:


> I am the definition of a "TiVo lover". I bought the first TiVo box that came out in 1999. When I switched to sat from cable, I bought Sony SAT-T60 DirecTivos the day they came out, and the HR10-250s the day they came out. And I still use an HDVR2. In my lifetime, I've owned 9 TiVo boxes. I reluctantly swapped my four HR10's for four HR20's in March, because it was the only way I could continue to view YES-HD.
> 
> After 3 months of using the HR20, aside from dual buffers and less than stellar MPEG-4 "cruise controls", I don't miss the HR10 at all. In fact, in numerous areas, the HR20 surpasses it in both features and performance. *So much so, that if I was given a choice right now of the HR20 as it is today or an MPEG-4 HR10 running 6.3d, I'm not sure I'd choose the HR10!*
> 
> ...


Steve, I'm in your camp too. I had one of the first Sony D* boxes back in 1997, graduated to the T-60 (4 of them) by 2002, got my HR10 a year ago, and just reluctantly converted everything to HR20's.

Call me lucky, but no issues whatsoever with missing programs on the HR20, and no dropouts or lockups like my HR10 either. Most of my viewing requires only the skipping of commercials, so the cruise control differences really aren't affecting me. I can get to "Now Playing" in one button press, it's easy to record, it's easy to watch, it's easy for everything. My Sony had an issue with the HR10's Dolby Decoder (gave me an "unsupported audio" error message) and that's corrected too. The HR20 is not the nightmare some in here led me to believe.

This argument reminds me of the Mac vs. Windows debates. Mac is more elegant, Mac is more innovative, Mac is this, Mac is that. But in the end, you just want a desktop to double-click your Excel icon and start working on your spreadsheet. Windows, while not as well designed, does just as good a job, and its popularity leads to better improvement over time. Just like I don't understand why Mac users so violently protect their toasters, I don't understand why Tivo users do either. Like Band-Aids and "adhesive bandages", a DVR is a DVR. A sexier UI is merely a nice-to-have. In the end, you want something to record your programs and inform you of what's on TV right now. The HR20 is just fine in that regard, and the increase in programming and the fabulous native mode make it a better decision.

In the end, aren't we all going to be HR20 users? If so, why the angst and why the wait? What's the exit strategy for a diehard Tivo HR10 user? Wait for the MPEG2 streams to stop?

BJ


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

boltjames said:


> In the end, aren't we all going to be HR20 users?


No


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

boltjames said:


> In the end, you want something to record your programs and inform you of what's on TV right now.


Exactly, you got the point. The HR20 can not be relied on to do the most basic thing, record programs and play them back. Until it can do that reliably I will always have my HR10 as the primary receiver.


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

rminsk said:


> Exactly, you got the point. The HR20 can not be relied on to do the most basic thing, record programs and play them back. Until it can do that reliably I will always have my HR10 as the primary receiver.


My HR20 records programs and plays them back every bit as reliably as my HR10, and I've had the HR20 since last October. Sorry you think it's so crappy that you feel the need to have 4 of them.

Both machines work fine for me. I actually prefer the HR20 GUI and use it as my primary box. But if I'm watching sports, which I like to watch live whenever possible, I use the HR10 because of the DLB's. Whenever an ad comes up during the game, I'll switch tuners and surf a bit. Each machine has its strong points.


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## boltjames (Dec 21, 2002)

fasTLane said:


> No


So you're going to leave D* completely if they don't develop an HD Tivo for you? Aren't you then just falling "victim" to someone else's cable DVR?

BJ


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## boltjames (Dec 21, 2002)

rminsk said:


> Exactly, you got the point. The HR20 can not be relied on to do the most basic thing, record programs and play them back. Until it can do that reliably I will always have my HR10 as the primary receiver.


Respectfully, how old is your HR20? Mine is three weeks old and hadn't missed a single program. Perhaps you should exchange your defective HR20 for a new one; or is it that you don't own an HR20 and are relying on heresay.

BJ


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Howie said:


> My HR20 records programs and plays them back every bit as reliably as my HR10, and I've had the HR20 since last October.


Well....my dad can beat up your dad. 



Howie said:


> Sorry you think it's so crappy that you feel the need to have 4 of them.


I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you've completely missed the point.


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## llarch (May 7, 2004)

sluciani said:


> So your position is if you were John Malone, you would (conservatively) spend $100-$200 million to acquire TiVo...
> 
> /steve


Not that it is a big point, but TiVo's current market value is $567M.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

boltjames said:


> Respectfully, how old is your HR20? Mine is three weeks old and hadn't missed a single program. Perhaps you should exchange your defective HR20 for a new one; or is it that you don't own an HR20 and are relying on heresay.
> 
> BJ


Hey bolt, my HR20 has gone 3-4 weeks without missing a program and then suddenly ...bam! It'll miss 2 or 3 over the next 7 days.

It's been consistantly inconsistant.

Hopefully this doesn't happen to you, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I'd like nothing more than to have this unit perform flawlessly with all the new HD programming/offerings coming up, but after over 6 months of this crap, I'm beginning to have my doubts.

BOL.


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## boltjames (Dec 21, 2002)

Sir_winealot said:



> Hey bolt, my HR20 has gone 3-4 weeks without missing a program and then suddenly ...bam! It'll miss 2 or 3 over the next 7 days.
> 
> It's been consistantly inconsistant.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'll watch for any inconsistencies and report back if any occur.

BJ


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

Sir_winealot said:


> Well....my dad can beat up your dad.


Well...my governor can beat up your governor.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Howie said:


> Well...my governor can beat up your governor.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

rminsk said:


> Exactly, you got the point. The HR20 can not be relied on to do the most basic thing, record programs and play them back. Until it can do that reliably I will always have my HR10 as the primary receiver.


I think it's only fair to define "reliably". I've had HR10 TiVos since August 2006 and each has missed more than one recording. I've had my HR20 since March 2007 and to date it has not yet missed a recording, but I have no doubt that someday it will. Given the above, however, I don't consider either the HR10 or the HR20 unreliable. I would have to have the majority of programs within a week not being recorded to classify either DVR as unreliable.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

drew2k said:


> I think it's only fair to define "reliably". I've had HR10 TiVos since August 2006 and each has missed more than one recording. I've had my HR20 since March 2007 and to date it has not yet missed a recording, but I have no doubt that someday it will. Given the above, however, I don't consider either the HR10 or the HR20 unreliable. I would have to have the majority of programs within a week not being recorded to classify either DVR as unreliable.


My HR10-250 has only missed about one recording since the guide screw-up months ago. The HR20 at least miss a program or have a short recording at least once a week. If a DVR can not go without missing a recording at least a month I call it unreliable.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

They day DirecTV releases a new Series 3 TiVo is the day I sign back up!!!


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

llarch said:


> Not that it is a big point, but TiVo's current market value is $567M.


Point taken. I'll edit my post. Thx.  /s

_So your position is if you were John Malone, you would spend $500-$600 million to acquire TiVo and then pay their engineering team to design a new MPEG-4 box, instead of just continuing to pay the HR20 engineering team to perfect the HR20, which is about 80%-90% done as we speak?_


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## davidjplatt (Aug 27, 2003)

sluciani said:


> _So your position is if you were John Malone, you would spend $500-$600 million to acquire TiVo and then pay their engineering team to design a new MPEG-4 box, instead of just continuing to pay the HR20 engineering team to perfect the HR20, which is about 80%-90% done as we speak?_


80% to 90% done and it's been out six months after considerable development? If the company I work for released unfinished software and continued to work on it for 6 months and then was 80-90% complete, everyone in software engineering would be fired and the QA department would be fired for allowing it to go out that way.

Based on what I've read about the HR20, the HR20 engineering team isn't exactly the greatest around and why continue to throw money away developing a device that still isn't as capable as the device it is supposed to replace? From what I have read, the dual buffer issue has been fixed on the R-15 and still hasn't made it's way to the HR20. Don't they know how to migrate software from one version to another? I'm sure the HR20 is based on the same software as the R-15.

For a long time TiVo was a great marketing tool for DirecTV. I know of many people that got DirecTV because of the DirecTV TiVo. They could record digital programs and replay them in the same quality as the intial broadcast. That's been a major appeal of the DirecTV TiVo. I work with people that had DirecTV TiVos and added a second DVR (the R-15) and they absolutely hate the R-15 compared to the TiVo.

If they had a TiVo based MPEG-4 system with a really beefy amount of disk storage, they'd walk all over the competition. Buying TiVo could end up being a brilliant move for DirecTV.

Not only that, NDS will probably rip Liberty off on the purchase price of the NDS hardware as soon as they get the chance. Newscorp will probably try to milk Liberty for all they can get out of them.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think we can agree that we would love for D* to offer us a choice of DVRs and that this news gives us a glimmer of hope that we will get that choice... 

as to the argument about Malone buying Tivo...the value would not only be to have Tivos made for D*, the same business model could continue (to license the Tivo software to as many companies as possible)...


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

davidjplatt said:


> 80% to 90% done and it's been out six months after considerable development? If the company I work for released unfinished software and continued to work on it for 6 months and then was 80-90% complete, everyone in software engineering would be fired and the QA department would be fired for allowing it to go out that way.
> 
> Based on what I've read about the HR20, the HR20 engineering team isn't exactly the greatest around and why continue to throw money away developing a device that still isn't as capable as the device it is supposed to replace? From what I have read, the dual buffer issue has been fixed on the R-15 and still hasn't made it's way to the HR20. Don't they know how to migrate software from one version to another? I'm sure the HR20 is based on the same software as the R-15.
> 
> ...


Your .02 vs. my .02, I guess. If I was a D* shareholder, I'd want to know just how many new subs adding a TiVo to my product line would buy me for the probable *3/4 billion dollar investment* (TiVo acquisition plus development costs) and the time it would take to accomplish this. The TiVo must-have users will probably number no more then the Mac must-have users in the PC world. Maybe 4%-5% of the potential user base, IMO. Think of what the acquisition and added support cost per subscriber would be, even if it meant another quarter-million subs for D*, which I think is a reach.



Anubys said:


> [...]as to the argument about Malone buying Tivo...the value would not only be to have Tivos made for D*, the same business model could continue (to license the Tivo software to as many companies as possible)...


I'm sure D* shareholders would love for Mr. Malone to spend up to $750 million and help his competition by licensing a competing product to them. Tivo's profit last quarter on all those great licensing deals they have was .01/share.

/steve


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

davidjplatt said:


> 80% to 90% done and it's been out six months after considerable development? If the company I work for released unfinished software and continued to work on it for 6 months and then was 80-90% complete, everyone in software engineering would be fired and the QA department would be fired for allowing it to go out that way.


At this moment in time, I don't consider the HR20 80%-90% done ... it's 100% done. It's being used successfully in the field right now. Enhancements and improvements continue to be made to the HR20 to boost performance and add new features, just like on TiVo platforms.



> Based on what I've read about the HR20, the HR20 engineering team isn't exactly the greatest around and why continue to throw money away developing a device that still isn't as capable as the device it is supposed to replace? From what I have read, the dual buffer issue has been fixed on the R-15 and still hasn't made it's way to the HR20. Don't they know how to migrate software from one version to another? I'm sure the HR20 is based on the same software as the R-15.


I'm not sure what your sources are, but the HR20 development team has been very responsive with product improvements, even implementing suggestions made by users. Also, it's news to me that the "dual-buffer issue" was fixed on the R15. Even if it was fixed, the developers have been working off a feature implementation plan that includes a new GUI, media sharing, and Video On Demand. Rollout of DLB would need to be scheduled, and maybe the schedule right now doesn't allow for it.

Anyway, if someone wanted to be snide, couldn't they say: TiVo has Feature A on standalone models, but not on the S3. What's the matter? TiVo engineers don't know how to port features? There are always circumstances that impact feature rollout, so don't make it sound like incompetence when it isn't.


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

I too have an HR10 and HR20. The HR20 is not bad. Would I rather DTV have continued with TiVo and Rupert would have stayed in Australia -- hell yes. But, as TiVo was set-up to fail with DTV (i.e., MPEG4 HD), it is what it is.

If it were not for DTV, I'd have never owned a TiVo. I am thankful for that, and I'd hope DTV thoughtfully consider letting TiVo fail or flourish on its own within DTV -- without outright handicapping it (MRV, online scheduling, etc.). I get the copyright concerns of some TiVo features and can understand some limitations...but the outright purposeful bias against TiVo at DTV is shameful (and makes little business sense).

All this so DTV doesn't have to share a portion of the $5.99 DVR fee with TiVo...give me a break. I am a DTV customer first, and then the DVR comes second, but TiVo got the shaft at DTV.


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## rjnerd (May 28, 2007)

Count me as one of the people that chose DirectTV because of their TIVO implementation. The idea that the data didn't have to go to analog like it would with the other options at the time...

One further reason that I chose the TIVO over the Dish network homegrown machine was the idea that I could open the box, and add disk space.

-dp-
http://www.the-nerds.org


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

davidjplatt said:


> "I'm shocked - I was told that the MPEG-2 HD is in fact going away the end of the year assuming we have a successful launch and turn on of DirecTV 10".


Why kill all the MPEG-2 HD? What else are they going to do with the 3 transpoders @ 110? I can 100% guarantee DTV will _not_ be returning the bits they've been stealing from the SD stations over the last few years in their quest to make room for more and more (a) HD stations, and (b) SD locals. Start pushing MPEG-4 on 110?



> The statement was made (by multiple people) that they would swap out MPEG-2 equipment for MPEG-4 equipment for no charge...


They've said that before and _not_ given anything away for free -- a 2 year contract is not "free". Given you don't get to own your own equipment anymore, there should never be any charge for a receiver. Ever. (that's how cable companies have worked for decades... when you cease being a customer, they give your box to someone else.)



> You may be making assumptions that are not accurate. There may be a compelling reason for them to switch everything to MPEG-4 despite the swap costs on equipment. It's possible they might need the capacity for SD channels that is being taken up by HD in MPEG-2.


It's more likely they simply want to completely drop any ties to Tivo in any form. As I said above, they aren't going to give those bits back. It's all about "HD _capacity_."



> If DirecTV had a brain they'd acquire TiVo just for their software and talent - and get it to work on an MPEG-4 box with enough memory and powerful enough processor to be the most responsive DVR on the market with the best software.


Indeed. But they don't need to buy Tivo proper. However, it would be cheaper than a cut of the DVR fee. (that used to be in the millions per year.) I don't know if they want to completely dump their existing engineering team. Even if they contracted (or bought) tivo, it'd end up like the Comcast DVR... written by tivo, but _nothing_ like a tivo. What we _want_ is the Tivo standard interface we've been using for a decade. That's 99% of the issue with the HR20. DTV want's the exact opposite... all of their hardware with the same UI (and remote) -- including the DVR.



Cudahy said:


> I keep wondering while reading these posts how many 10-250's are out there. If the number is significant(+100,000?) why would Malone turn down an offer from Tivo to at least offer Tivo mpeg4? I think nearly all Tivo lovers would be willing to pay an extra hundred or so to Directv to get one. Especially since a lot these users would quit Directv rather than giving up Tivo.


There are lots of DTivo's out there. But as large as that number is, it's nothing compared to the total number of receivers. DTV has around 10mil subscribers. That means there are over 10mil receivers (a lot have more than one.) Various figures suggest there were at one point around 1mil dtivos -- that figure was before there were DTV DVRs, so it's lower now. So, it would follow there were 300k-500k ("less than 1mil") subscribers. (again because people have more than one. I, for example, have had 5.) Unless we _all_ left -- _on the same day_ -- they won't even take notice. Even then, they don't care -- they don't even try to bribe you anymore when you give "tivo" as the reason for leaving.

Maybe Liberty will change things, but that's just wishful thinking right now.

I've used a Tivo for a decade; I will not use something else. If they take away MPEG-2 HD, I'll cancel the hd package. When the dtivo's stop working, I'll stop being a DTV customer. I'll go back to f'ing broadcast TV before I give up the tivo.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

cramer said:


> I've used a Tivo for a decade


Nifty trick since it hit the street in 1999.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

bidger said:


> [Tivo] hit the street in 1999


And I waited until just after Christmas to pick up a bargain open box special. But I'd have to empathisize with the poster in saying he's had one for a decade. Seems even longer. Hell, I can't even imagine what TV must have been like without it. The worst marketing entity ever conceived by man, Tivo as a company has that distinction. But they sure changed our lives.

Edited to add: I just looked it up and the Tivo is widely-described as going retail in Fall 1999. I'm absolutely certain I saw them much earlier in 1999, as early as the Spring, I think. They must have been pretty widely seeded pre-retail-distribution because they were out there.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

rminsk said:


> HR20 short recordings, missing recordings, RBR, no CIR list, ...


Just shows that BOTH devices are expierencing similiar issues, they just have a different GUI.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

cramer said:


> Why kill all the MPEG-2 HD? What else are they going to do with the 3 transpoders @ 110? I can 100% guarantee DTV will _not_ be returning the bits they've been stealing from the SD stations over the last few years in their quest to make room for more and more (a) HD stations, and (b) SD locals. Start pushing MPEG-4 on 110?


It's just the fact that they are moving all HD to 99 and 103 sats. MPEG4 is just a side effect and a direction *all* providers are going to. Dish is converting everything (including SD) to MPEG4 and even HBO is now going to distribute their content in MPEG4. Technology moves forward.

I think the main reason is pretty obvious to move HD to 99 and 103. First they have no bandwidth is left on 101/110/119.
Second they get the vast majority of the core channels all within 5 degrees of each other at 99/101/103 which could mean going to a smaller dish in the future unless you need locals or programming off 110 or 119.
What will they do with 110? Well, they could sell it. Use it for expanded international programming to compete with Dish and get it off of 95 so one less dish will be needed. 
They also have to get the small market locals off of 72.5 which is only temporary and thus they have to move them and now can move them to 110 or 119.
Could also expand the SD offerings (like the many HBO or Cinemax channels many people want).

Basically the reasons are endless.

MPEG2 HD's days are numbered.
Will it be shut down by years end? Unlikely.
2nd quarter 2008? Likely.
By end of 2008? Most definitely.

It's only a matter of time. And it's been the plan for going on 4 years now.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

Even if it's only a few hundred thousand, what if Tivo offers Malone an offer that would insure their keeping those subscribers without losing any per-subscriber fee? It may not be a big thing to either side but it would be in their mutual economic interest.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

Cudahy said:


> Even if it's only a few hundred thousand, what if Tivo offers Malone an offer that would insure their keeping those subscribers without losing any per-subscriber fee? It may not be a big thing to either side but it would be in their mutual economic interest.


If TiVo offered to do that in the first place, there would have been little need for D* to develop their own DVRs. The extra $60/year per subscriber DVR fee D* is now collecting probably doesn't come close to offsetting D*'s development and ongoing support costs.

But why would TiVo do that? How would they recover their own development costs for an MPEG-4/VOD box. They certainly couldn't afford to do it for the same subscriber revenue they were getting before.

My guess is D* approached TiVo about an MPEG-4/VOD box 2-3 years ago, and the price tag was such that Murdoch thought if they had to pay TiVo all that money, they might as well keep those $$$ "in the family", since Murdoch also owned NDS. You may not be a fan of Murdoch's, but you can't blame him for that. I would have done the same thing, if given the same choice. /s


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

Redux said:


> Edited to add: I just looked it up and the Tivo is widely-described as going retail in Fall 1999. I'm absolutely certain I saw them much earlier in 1999, as early as the Spring, I think. They must have been pretty widely seeded pre-retail-distribution because they were out there.


I bought my first TiVo that fall (a Phillips box), and paid the lifetime subscription fee. I added a second drive to it, and my son is still using it today, connected to one of his cable boxes. Works like a charm.  /s


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

sluciani said:
 

> My guess is D* approached TiVo about an MPEG-4/VOD box 2-3 years ago, and the price tag was such that Murdoch thought if they had to pay TiVo all that money, they might as well keep those $$$ "in the family", since Murdoch also owned NDS. You may not be a fan of Murdoch's, but you can't blame him for that. I would have done the same thing, if given the same choice. /s


not necessarily...if you own a company that creates "something", you promote it even at a cost (i.e. Tivo's deal may have been better)...in the hope that you will get increased market share in the future...


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

sjberra said:


> Just shows that BOTH devices are expierencing similiar issues, they just have a different GUI.


My HR10 does not currently have any of those issues... all four of the HR20s I have access to have those issues.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

rminsk said:


> My HR10 does not currently have any of those issues... all four of the HR20s I have access to have those issues.


And there is the rub. There are people that have the opposite where their HR10 is having problems and their HR20 doesn't.

Can't we all agree that all the receiver models (Tivo and non-Tivo) have people that have problems with them? Nobody here can say with a clear conscience that either the HR10 or HR20 are perfect and that nobody has any problem with it. To claim otherwise just isn't being honest with yourself.


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## boltjames (Dec 21, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> And there is the rub. There are people that have the opposite where their HR10 is having problems and their HR20 doesn't.
> 
> Can't we all agree that all the receiver models (Tivo and non-Tivo) have people that have problems with them? Nobody here can say with a clear conscience that either the HR10 or HR20 are perfect and that nobody has any problem with it. To claim otherwise just isn't being honest with yourself.


I'm in my 4th week with two HR20's and I can report that I have had zero issues with extensive use of each in all modes. In fact, I've been trying to find these "issues" and can't.

My HR10 would have problems with sound dropouts and quick black-screening almost nightly, so this is a welcome change for me.

BJ


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

sluciani said:


> I bought my first TiVo that fall (a Phillips box),...and my son is still using it today, connected to one of his cable boxes. Works like a charm.  /s


Me too (October 1999) and I remember it being available about 10 months or so before that, but was widely reported as "not ready for prime time" in the technical media during those early reports (by v2.0, it was more than ready). So anybody using Tivo for a decade would probably have to have been an officer of the company or a Tivo tech. Actually, I think Tivo as a company has been around just shy of a decade, according to a wikipedia browse I did a couple weeks ago.

I firmly expected to play with that original 1999 Tivo for the weekend and take it back, assuming before the fact that it could never impress me enough to shell out $300 for it. Boy was I wrong. It revolutionized everything about television recording and watching for me and for everyone else who bought one. I still use my 14-hr box at work as a cache server for "The Daily Show" and other SD stuff I can watch while eating lunch.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> [...]It revolutionized everything about television recording and watching for me[...]


+1. TiVo (and let's not forget Replay) created a total paradigm shift, IMO. /s


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

Anubys said:


> not necessarily...if you own a company that creates "something", you promote it even at a cost (i.e. Tivo's deal may have been better)...in the hope that you will get increased market share in the future...


Agree. I wasn't inferring that TiVo's price tag was necessarily higher, just that _whatever _money they were asking to cover development costs, why not keep those $$$ inside the Murdoch "family", especially for the potential promotional value you cite. /s


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

rminsk said:


> My HR10 does not currently have any of those issues... all four of the HR20s I have access to have those issues.


The HR10 I still have hooked up IS expierencing all those issues. So the comparision is still valid, people with HR20's are expierencing issues, people with HR10's are expierencing issues


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I have not had troublesome issues with my HR10-250 DVR's. I have not had troublesome issues with my HR20-700 DVR's. I expect I am with the majority in having no serious issues with either. I do prefer TiVo but I understand business decisions are made and I just accepted I had to make the change. If the HR20 starts giving me trouble, I can and will switch service providers.

Chris


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

My HR10 has been going blank every time I try to schedule and record an SD program for the last two weeks, requiring a reboot. So, am I supposed to assume that Tivo is crap? Nope. The truth is that all DVRs have some period of time that they have issues. Tivo is not the perfect machine that Tivo-lovers make it out to be. Was it ahead of its time and a great box? Yup. But to assume that anything else cannot be as good or better than Tivo is just assinine.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> But to assume that anything else cannot be as good or better than Tivo is just assinine.


I don't think most of us think that...but I, for example, don't believe anyone has made a better DVR YET...

I think the HR20 has a shot...a couple of more features and software upgrades and it will be better than the HR10...


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> ...to assume that anything else cannot be as good or better than Tivo is just assinine.


Assuming anything is assinine, but the evidence out there is that Tivo has always been in another league regarding user-friendliness, expandability, and reliability. Unfortunately for all of us, nothing else has really ever even come close. Both my anecdotal evidence (owning 10 PVRs from 5 different companies over 8 years) and the body of evidence as reported on the various forums all but proves that. About the closest was Replay, no longer a player (no pun), and only in UI.

So of course something will come along to make Tivo look quaint and obsolete. We were all hoping the industry would mature by now and newer offerings like the HR20 would improve upon the state of the art rather than retrograding the technology. So far it hasn't happened. Of course it will, it's a matter of time. But the odds for any time soon are pretty long.

Nobody stays on top forever. There's always a younger, faster gun coming along to prove himself. Just not quite yet.


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

I concur with TyroneShoes. I have had pretty much the same experience. I've had a number of DVRs for various companies over the last 7 years, and all but the TiVos have had issues that bothered me. Some very serious, some just annoying. 

The reason I'm such a TiVo supporter is the simple fact that I've owned a number of DVRs that did not really function well. Someday someone will come out with a new killer DVR, but in my opinion it certainly is not the HR20.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

I agree that Tivo will have to offer Directv an offer that will make them more money. The money will have to come from Tivo users willing to pay more for the Tivo mpeg4 box. 
I wonder if Tivo has done any research into how many Tivo users would be willing to do this?


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

"The money will have to come from Tivo users willing to pay more for the Tivo mpeg4 box.
I wonder if Tivo has done any research into how many Tivo users would be willing to do this?" 

Put me down for 5. 4 for me, and 1 for my dad.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

+1


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