# Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles "Samson and Delilah" S2 premiere *spoilers*



## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

This show doesn't skimp on the action and explosions :up:

... and we keep Cameron around, despite the broken chip. Yummm, more Summer Glau :up: x 3


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

All that and then just for fun... lets add a T1000 to the mix. :up:


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

Now that is one hell of away to start a season! A+++

I just wish that kept the intro the same from S1.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

SnakeEyes said:


> All and that then just for fun... lets add a T1000 to the mix. :up:


Also from the preview of the upcoming season:



Spoiler



Looks like it was a male Terminator ripping off the roof of the vehicle but not the one we have seen before. Maybe the start of more machines being sent back


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

That voice over for the intro was terrible. The rest of the episode was great fun.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

John mans up! That should change the dynamics in an interesting way...taking charge instead of whining, and how Mom and Unc will react. (I suspect they'll come to wish he were still whining...)


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## packerfan (Jan 8, 2002)

Excellent first episode. Looks like it will be a very good season.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

So the woman CEO is related to BRAINIAC.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

awesome!

Looks like Summernator is "on the fritz" Is she REALLY OK now or is she just pretending for now? This could be interesting. And the red headed "T1000". Sweet. Although it's weird she is inventing herself.


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## Thaed (Nov 25, 2003)

Ok, if you're a freakin' T1000, you don't have to be the president of a corporation to kill John Connor. You just go and kill him. There's like over 9000 terminators running around now and we get a T1000 calling a meeting?


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

Thaed said:


> Ok, if you're a freakin' T1000, you don't have to be the president of a corporation to kill John Connor. You just go and kill him. There's like over 9000 terminators running around now and we get a T1000 calling a meeting?


But why get your hands dirty? Like you said there are 9000 terminators running around that want to kill John Connor, all you have to do is insure that Skynet is built.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Enrique said:


> But why get your hands dirty? Like you said there are 9000 terminators running around that want to kill John Connor, all you have to do is insure that Skynet is built.


Exactly...there's more to life than killing John Connor.

Well, OK, not life, but you know what I mean.

There's a whole FUTURE to build!


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## zuko3984 (May 4, 2002)

Thaed said:


> Ok, if you're a freakin' T1000, you don't have to be the president of a corporation to kill John Connor. You just go and kill him. There's like over 9000 terminators running around now and we get a T1000 calling a meeting?


I don't think the t1000 is there to kill john conner. She is there to insure that skynet gets built. I'm sure killing john conner would be a plus but it doesn't seem to be her main mission

Plus the last t1000 that tried to kill him didn't get the job done and none of the other terminators sent back to kill him or his mother got it done so maybe a change in strategy wouldnt't be such a bad idea.


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## zuko3984 (May 4, 2002)

I didn't know Shirley Manson from Garabage was going to be in it let alone have what seems like is going to be a big part. I knew she could sing but didn't know she could act but so far she seems pretty good.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

even with staples in her face evil Summernator is still hawt.


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## Martyp (Jan 6, 2004)

But what bugs me is that because they are there to be sent back means skynet was built. If they had changed things there would be no machines to come back and which means they never killed john because he was there in the future


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## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> awesome!
> 
> Looks like Summernator is "on the fritz" Is she REALLY OK now or is she just pretending for now? This could be interesting.


Why would she pretend? Its not like she cares about her well being. If she wanted to kill John she could have done it and she wouldn't care what happened to her.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

I don't think Summernator is pretending. Her "readout" showed Terminate, then Override. Makes you wonder if the machine meant it when she said she loved John.

From previews:


Spoiler



I wonder if Summernator gets jealous of the blonde that John brings home and that's why he thinks she's malfunctioning.



J


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Okay, here's what bugged me. So you've got this massively complex CPU chip from the future that is faulty, and John fixes it by, from what I could tell, wiping the soot off and poking at it with a toothpick. Oooooooooookay.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Good kickoff to the season.
Good thing that Summernator is no longer evil otherwise I'd being going "Noooooooooooo!" 

Although I do have to wonder how damaged is the chip and what does make Cameron special?


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## JMikeD (Jun 10, 2002)

Martyp said:


> But what bugs me is that because they are there to be sent back means skynet was built. If they had changed things there would be no machines to come back and which means they never killed john because he was there in the future


That way lies madness.


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## rgr (Feb 21, 2003)

What bugs me is that this is the Sarah Connor Chronicles. She is supposed to have trained herself in fighting with guns, knives, whatever to keep her son alive so he can save the human race. Yet somehow she has failed to learn how to drive a car. You might think she would get an idea that it's a smart move to actually watch where you are going and that when you are talking to someone you don't spend your time looking at them. Especially if you are driving substantially faster than surrounding traffic. Otherwise you just might get into an accident or two and let the frakkin' toasters catch up to you.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

rgr said:


> What bugs me is that this is the Sarah Connor Chronicles. She is supposed to have trained herself in fighting with guns, knives, whatever to keep her son alive so he can save the human race. Yet somehow she has failed to learn how to drive a car. You might think she would get an idea that it's a smart move to actually watch where you are going and that when you are talking to someone you don't spend your time looking at them. Especially if you are driving substantially faster than surrounding traffic. Otherwise you just might get into an accident or two and let the frakkin' toasters catch up to you.


Haven't driven in LA, have you?


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

I loved everything about this episode except for the last few minutes. Morphing from a urinal to kill a guy who disagrees with your business decisions? I dunno, if you are a T-1000 on a mission to kill someone, a body count wouldn't make much of a difference. But if you're a top exec at a corporation with a plan for world destruction and bodies start piling up with weird "holes" in their heads, it seems like it would attract unwanted attention and cause unnecessary hurdles.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

atrac said:


> I loved everything about this episode except for the last few minutes. Morphing from a urinal to kill a guy who disagrees with your business decisions? I dunno, if you are a T-1000 on a mission to kill someone, a body count wouldn't make much of a difference. But if you're a top exec at a corporation with a plan for world destruction and bodies start piling up with weird "holes" in their heads, it seems like it would attract unwanted attention and cause unnecessary hurdles.


It just proves that old adage:



Spoiler



It's better to be pissed off than pissed on.


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## jstack (Mar 26, 2005)

zuko3984 said:


> I didn't know Shirley Manson from Garabage was going to be in it let alone have what seems like is going to be a big part. I knew she could sing but didn't know she could act but so far she seems pretty good.


She has an very strong Scottish accent. It looks like she is trying to tone it down it a bit for the show, but every once in awhile, you can hear her true accent.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

That was some of the best TV I've seen in.... well, a darn long time. :up:

I had heard Shirley Manson was going to be in it, but I didn't know she was going to be terminator, let alone a T1000-type terminator. Glad that wasn't spoiled for me as it was really good surprise.

Nice flip with that Jeep SUV.

I'm guessing Cameron is still 'broken', but she's some how bypassing the programming telling her to terminate him.


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## TiVo Bum (Nov 6, 2004)

busyba said:


> Okay, here's what bugged me. So you've got this massively complex CPU chip from the future that is faulty, and John fixes it by, from what I could tell, wiping the soot off and poking at it with a toothpick. Oooooooooookay.


I don't think that he repaired the chip. The impression I got was that it was still damaged, hence the mission still being to terminate JC, but that Summernator deliberately overrode that mission. This seemed to me to be a direct reference back to the lady business executive's discussion earlier in the show about humans having the ability to do something totally random and how beautiful it would be if a computer/machine would be able to go against it's own programming.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

busyba said:


> Okay, here's what bugged me. So you've got this massively complex CPU chip from the future that is faulty, and John fixes it by, from what I could tell, wiping the soot off and poking at it with a toothpick. Oooooooooookay.


Maybe he rubbed it with some Royal Jelly.

I wasn't all that enamored of Shirley Manson's acting. Reminded me too much of some of Smallville's stunt casting. But she's a T1000 so I'm good.


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## emandbri (Jul 5, 2004)

Great first episode of the season! I also think that Cameron is fixed but maybe not all the way fixed. If she was still broken she would have killled John right away. 

I'm wondering how many car wrecks they are going to get in before they put on their seat belts.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

It says a lot about how far we've come with CGI that a T-1000 can be placed in a TV show. Remember back in 1991 (I think) when Terminator 2 came out and the budget was over $100 million and the CGI was cutting edge and super expensive. Now it's used on a TV show.


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## lambertman (Dec 21, 2002)

balboa dave said:


> It just proves that old adage:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 :up:



Spoiler



Gives a new meaning to "Only Happy When It Rains"


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## jeepair (Apr 22, 2004)

I enjoyed this episode, I just wish they kept Summer 'evil' for a few episodes before the switch back. Or perhaps have her 'switch' sides after thinking about it for a few episodes.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

I really liked the begining - lots of action with music playing - sweet.


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## KevinG (Sep 3, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> It says a lot about how far we've come with CGI that a T-1000 can be placed in a TV show. Remember back in 1991 (I think) when Terminator 2 came out and the budget was over $100 million and the CGI was cutting edge and super expensive. Now it's used on a TV show.


Wasn't this morphing effect used in Deep Space Nine many many years ago? Or is my memory flawed?


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Sirius Black said:


> It says a lot about how far we've come with CGI that a T-1000 can be placed in a TV show. Remember back in 1991 (I think) when Terminator 2 came out and the budget was over $100 million and the CGI was cutting edge and super expensive. Now it's used on a TV show.


Not just CGI. What kind of computer did you have back in 1991? What kind of computer do you have now?


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## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

I thought in the first season the result of killing Miles Dyson in T2 was the fact that no liquid terminators could be built that is why the Summernator is more like a T100 than a T1000.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

KevinG said:


> Wasn't this morphing effect used in Deep Space Nine many many years ago? Or is my memory flawed?


No, you're right. I completely forgot about that. I wonder if Odo's (and others) morphing was as advanced as the reflective metal type morphing.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

So what happened in the room at the beginning? There was a bad guy kind of strangling Sarah and John was trying to cut through his flex-cuffs. Then we focused on Cameron and her entrance to the house and by the time she got to the room with Sarah and John, the bad buy was dead and the Connors were free...

And Sarah wants to talk to John about what happened and he doesn't want to talk about it...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Sirius Black said:


> No, you're right. I completely forgot about that. I wonder if Odo's (and others) morphing was as advanced as the reflective metal type morphing.


That was after T2, however...


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Amnesia said:


> So what happened in the room at the beginning? There was a bad guy kind of strangling Sarah and John was trying to cut through his flex-cuffs. Then we focused on Cameron and her entrance to the house and by the time she got to the room with Sarah and John, the bad buy was dead and the Connors were free...
> 
> And Sarah wants to talk to John about what happened and he doesn't want to talk about it...


My assumption is he killed the guy. They were sure hinting at that, but who knows.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

su719 said:


> I thought in the first season the result of killing Miles Dyson in T2 was the fact that no liquid terminators could be built that is why the Summernator is more like a T100 than a T1000.


This is where the story lines go wonky. In the original James Cameron created canon, Miles Dyson was the father of the learning computer that runs skynet and all the terminators.

Destroying his research, materials, and the pretty much the entire building where he was doing his work (and everything in his home) should have at the very least delayed judgement day. Which it did. Judgement Day was supposed to take place in 1997 but August 29th came and went peacefully. The third movie, which I think the TV show completely disregards tells us Skynet was a computer virus not hardware. I think that movie postulates that there is no stopping judgement day. You can only survive it.

I really like the Terminator universe. It's way more than a simple sci-fi action movie and I've probably spent way more time thinking about it than I should.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

su719 said:


> I thought in the first season the result of killing Miles Dyson in T2 was the fact that no liquid terminators could be built that is why the Summernator is more like a T100 than a T1000.


I think it wasn't so much killing Miles Dyson as it was destroying the chip from the T-100 from the first movie. Now that there are, like, 4000 Terminators running around the world, maybe their chips get found and we advance tech so much that a T1000 can be built. They had the hybrid in T3.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Sirius Black said:


> I really like the Terminator universe. It's way more than a simple sci-fi action movie and I've probably spent way more time thinking about it than I should.


I do too, it's pretty well done (although I wasn't a big fan of T3). I'm a huge time travel fan, and the cool thing, for me, is how well time travel is handled in T1, it's a closed-time-loop, so there aren't really any paradoxes in it.

T2 kinda throws all that out and tries to put the happy ending on it, but like you said T3 comes back in and wipes that out. That said, T2 is still the most fun to watch out of the three.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

TiVo Bum said:


> I don't think that he repaired the chip. The impression I got was that it was still damaged, hence the mission still being to terminate JC, but that Summernator deliberately overrode that mission. This seemed to me to be a direct reference back to the lady business executive's discussion earlier in the show about humans having the ability to do something totally random and how beautiful it would be if a computer/machine would be able to go against it's own programming.


I agree with this. As someone pointed out earlier, it's a bit much to think that dusting off the chip would "fix" her. John doesn't know it, but he definitely didn't fix the chip. Hence, Summernator telling Mom, "If it happens again, don't let him bring me back."


hapdrastic said:


> My assumption is he killed the guy. They were sure hinting at that, but who knows.


Again, I agree. I didn't get this at first, but that has to be it.


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## mrmike (May 2, 2001)

Jeeters said:


> Nice flip with that Jeep SUV.


It really was. It's nice to see a Terminator using mass and energy in a (somewhat) realistic way. Judo with an SUV is pretty cool.



Jeeters said:


> I'm guessing Cameron is still 'broken', but she's some how bypassing the programming telling her to terminate him.


I predict that this will be a major plot point this season (duh).

If they can keep the momentum they've begun with it'll be a fun ride while it lasts.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I'm guessing that it was a partial fix. JC probably did more than just "dust off" the chip, but it's not fully fixed. Hopefully they won't get crazy/stupid with "Dark Summer" eps.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

lew said:


> Not just CGI. What kind of computer did you have back in 1991? What kind of computer do you have now?


In 1991 I could do this sort of effect on my Amiga.

That said, it'd be very different. I'd need to be skilled in model making because there'd be no way to scan a 3D model. There were technologies in place to do that at the time (that company Viewpoint that did the baby model did it around that time), but it was VERY expensive. Certainly more expensive than I had access to.

The big thing would be time. Provided I was a good enough artist and 3D artist to create a model that was realistic enough and matched the action, each frame would take weeks to render at the resolution necessary.

Greg


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## TiVo Bum (Nov 6, 2004)

Amnesia said:


> So what happened in the room at the beginning? There was a bad guy kind of strangling Sarah and John was trying to cut through his flex-cuffs. Then we focused on Cameron and her entrance to the house and by the time she got to the room with Sarah and John, the bad buy was dead and the Connors were free...
> 
> And Sarah wants to talk to John about what happened and he doesn't want to talk about it...


My impression was that John had killed the guy, the first time he's actually killed a human and he didn't want to talk it over with Mom because he was so upset by it.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Jeeters said:


> Nice flip with that Jeep SUV.


I've actually driven down that tunnel myself. "Hey, I recognize that place!" It's near downtown LA into the LA drainage ditch...err. river.

--Carlos V.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Unbeliever said:


> I've actually driven down that tunnel myself. "Hey, I recognize that place!" It's near downtown LA into the LA drainage ditch...err. river.
> 
> --Carlos V.


Yes but I'm pretty sure that there was no concrete block at the end of the tunnel.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

Gotta love while the guy was complaining about the boss, she's disguised as the urinal he's using.

Great EP, hope we see more of "Dark Summer"


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

Gregor said:


> Gotta love while the guy was complaining about the boss, she's disguised as the urinal he's using.
> 
> Great EP, hope we see more of "Dark Summer"


too bad he didn't get to use it first


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Unbeliever said:


> I've actually driven down that tunnel myself. "Hey, I recognize that place!" It's near downtown LA into the LA drainage ditch...err. river.
> 
> --Carlos V.


I wonder if that is the same area that they used in T2... I know it was LA. I know it was the "river". But it's been a long time since I visited LA. I think it was sometime in the late 80s.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Jebberwocky! said:


> too bad he didn't get to use it first


My first thought when the urinal started morphing was, "That's hot."

Greg


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Sirius Black said:


> I wonder if that is the same area that they used in T2... I know it was LA. I know it was the "river". But it's been a long time since I visited LA. I think it was sometime in the late 80s.


Nope.
SCC filmed that sequence in the "river" southeast of Downtown.
T2 shot the motorcycle chase in the San Fernando Valley.
(I want to say near Plummer and Topanga Canyon.)


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

gchance said:


> My first thought when the urinal started morphing was, "That's hot."
> 
> Greg


My thought was, "I bet she's pissed".


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Yes but I'm pretty sure that there was no concrete block at the end of the tunnel.


That little ramp thing? I remember it being there, but it's been a few years. I drove down it, parked, walked the LA river a bit, got strange looks from the homeless, and backed out again. I could have driven on the river itself, but didn't want to risk tire damage.

--Carlos V.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

hapdrastic said:


> I do too, it's pretty well done (although I wasn't a big fan of T3). I'm a huge time travel fan, and the cool thing, for me, is how well time travel is handled in T1, it's a closed-time-loop, so there aren't really any paradoxes in it.
> 
> T2 kinda throws all that out and tries to put the happy ending on it, but like you said T3 comes back in and wipes that out. That said, T2 is still the most fun to watch out of the three.


So John Connor sending his father back in time to protect _and impregnate his mother_ isn't a paradox?


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

gchance said:


> My first thought when the urinal started morphing was, "That's hot."
> 
> Greg


My 1st thought was uh.. oh.. Someone on the writer's staff has been listening to Tom Lyekis.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

MacThor said:


> So John Connor sending his father back in time to protect _and impregnate his mother_ isn't a paradox?


No, it's just creepy.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

The whole thing with her magically "fixing" herself kinda bothered me; it just kind of felt like a cop-out. They basically got to their eat their cake and have it, too. They got to do their little "OMG, she's gone bad!" twist, without having to destroy Summernator to do end it.

If nothing else, it totally goes against the prevailing theme from Season 1, which was basically "machines don't have feelings and will go about things in a brutally amoral way, even when their with the 'good guys'." Here we have a damaged Terminator overriding her most basic programming because she "loves" her target...  I know, themes change, but it just seems like an odd change of direction.


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## flatcurve (Sep 27, 2007)

The human race will never survive if the guy who's supposed to save us pairs off with a bag of bolts.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

MacThor said:


> So John Connor sending his father back in time to protect _and impregnate his mother_ isn't a paradox?


Nope, stable causal-loop. If you think of time as a space-like dimension, the "line" of cause-effect is still intact, it just has this little loop in it...

The second movie suggested that you could have _un_stable loops, where someone from the future actually _changes_ the past that created him/her/it. Even that is sort of viable, IMHO, if you assume that the causal-loop settles out to a stable state after some number of iterations (eg. any paradoxes resolve themselves somehow).

One thing that used to bug my brother about T2 is that the tech from the T100 chip seems to appear from nowhere in the timeline; it exists in the T100, which then gets used to design Skynet, which designs the T100... But IMHO that anomaly is just a remnant from an earlier iteration of the time loop(s).

OTOH, T3 _did_ bother me, because it seemed to promote the rather ambiguous and unscientific notion of "fate". IMHO, either the timeline is fixed, and Judgement Day happens as stated in T1, or it's variable, and all bets are off. In T3 they suggested that this rather complex social/technological event is inevitable, even though the _timing_ of it could be changed... :down:


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

dcheesi said:


> The whole thing with her magically "fixing" herself kinda bothered me; it just kind of felt like a cop-out. They basically got to their eat their cake and have it, too. They got to do their little "OMG, she's gone bad!" twist, without having to destroy Summernator to do end it.
> 
> If nothing else, it totally goes against the prevailing theme from Season 1, which was basically "machines don't have feelings and will go about things in a brutally amoral way, even when their with the 'good guys'." Here we have a damaged Terminator overriding her most basic programming because she "loves" her target...  I know, themes change, but it just seems like an odd change of direction.


Are you saying that you think all the stuff she was saying while pinned between the trucks ("I'm good now, I ran a test... I love you... etc...") was genuine?

I was under the impression that all that was Terminator BS... just saying what she thought would save herself so that she could carry out her "Terminate John Connor" mission. She wasn't "fixed" until John blew the soot off the chip. 

I think the fact that she was displaying emotion is the most convincing piece of evidence that she was faking.

In any case, some in the thread have theorized that she's not actually "fixed"; she's still bad but she's manually overridden the "Terminate John Connor" mission for some other sinister purpose. That's a possibility too.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Just watched the ep: at the end, I just though "OH SNAP." I was literally sitting on my couch with my mouth agape.

At any rate, I thought the t1000 effect looked kind of rushed - when she got her colour, the transition was a litle strange, IMO. Not as well done as I remember T2 being - she didn't really finish morphing and then bam, she was there.

And to the person who thought that it was a mistake to keep racking up bodies - she was in there eavesdropping to see how they would react. She probably believed that the AI guy would start asking around and get too nosey, so better to nip it in the bud before he starts making other people curious. Notice how the other guy who couldn't care less also didn't get killed.

If he'd kept his mouth shut, he probably would have been allowed to go about his business, wash up, and go home.

Anyway, enough rambling. I hope they can keep this up throughout the whole season - this just became the "must not miss" show for me.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Unbeliever said:


> That little ramp thing? I remember it being there, but it's been a few years. I drove down it, parked, walked the LA river a bit, got strange looks from the homeless, and backed out again. I could have driven on the river itself, but didn't want to risk tire damage.
> 
> --Carlos V.


No, at the river bed itself is part of a highway concrete barrier.
I think they put it there for the "SUV Judo" stunt.



dcheesi said:


> The whole thing with her magically "fixing" herself kinda bothered me; it just kind of felt like a cop-out. They basically got to their eat their cake and have it, too. They got to do their little "OMG, she's gone bad!" twist, without having to destroy Summernator to do end it.
> 
> If nothing else, it totally goes against the prevailing theme from Season 1, which was basically "machines don't have feelings and will go about things in a brutally amoral way, even when their with the 'good guys'." Here we have a damaged Terminator overriding her most basic programming because she "loves" her target...  I know, themes change, but it just seems like an odd change of direction.


Well, except that they've hinted from the beginning that the Summernator is different.
She can eat and no where have they identified what model she is.

My suspicion is that future John Connor programmed her with a personality based on Sarah's.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

busyba said:


> Are you saying that you think all the stuff she was saying while pinned between the trucks ("I'm good now, I ran a test... I love you... etc...") was genuine?
> 
> I was under the impression that all that was Terminator BS... just saying what she thought would save herself so that she could carry out her "Terminate John Connor" mission. She wasn't "fixed" until John blew the soot off the chip.
> 
> ...


I agree, the emotion while pinned between the trucks was standard terminator BS. That wasn't "Override Termination" stuff, and, like you, the fact that she said "I love you" was the biggest clue that it was all fake.

On your other point, I don't think she overrode her "terminate" mission for another sinister purpose. I think she overrode it because she's "different", (as John keeps saying,) and, at that moment, decided that she wanted to protect John rather than terminate him.

As for the paradox talk. I can't think about it. It makes my head hurt. When it comes to time-travel, whatever they do is fine with me as long as it entertains.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

Those of you goin on about John falling for a bag of bolts - 

am I crazy or didn't John say something like I need her because she's going to save my life - which I took to mean that if they destroyed her she wouldn't be around later in the timeline to save him... did i imagine that?


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Cainebj said:


> Those of you goin on about John falling for a bag of bolts -
> 
> am I crazy or didn't John say something like I need her because she's going to save my life - which I took to mean that if they destroyed her she wouldn't be around later in the timeline to save him... did i imagine that?


I thought he said "she SAVED my life.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Cainebj said:


> Those of you goin on about John falling for a bag of bolts -
> 
> am I crazy or didn't John say something like I need her because she's going to save my life - which I took to mean that if they destroyed her she wouldn't be around later in the timeline to save him... did i imagine that?


He said that she SAVED his life.

Anyhow, he obviously didn't fix her, I think he just took a "leap of faith" that she fixed her self before he removed the chip.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Cainebj said:


> Those of you goin on about John falling for a bag of bolts -
> 
> am I crazy or didn't John say something like I need her because she's going to save my life - which I took to mean that if they destroyed her she wouldn't be around later in the timeline to save him... did i imagine that?





Langree said:


> I thought he said "she SAVED my life.





vertigo235 said:


> He said that she SAVED his life.
> 
> Anyhow, he obviously didn't fix her, I think he just took a "leap of faith" that she fixed her self before he removed the chip.


I believe he said:

_"She *saved* my life."_ Pause, and then, _"She *saves* my life."_


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

jradford said:


> I agree, the emotion while pinned between the trucks was standard terminator BS. That wasn't "Override Termination" stuff, and, like you, the fact that she said "I love you" was the biggest clue that it was all fake.


Obviously that was my initial reaction as well. But then I'm left with "magical chip-dusting" as my only other explanation for her later reversal... not exactly a great pair of choices, IMHO


----------



## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

dcheesi said:


> Obviously that was my initial reaction as well. But then I'm left with "magical chip-dusting" as my only other explanation for her later reversal... not exactly a great pair of choices, IMHO


They made a point in the "previously on" portion to use Summernator's line of how they are programmed to self repair. It's possible they could just fall back on that and say her systems recognized a fault and tho it took time, corrected it. The debris she pulled from her skull was close to the chip.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Langree said:


> They made a point in the "previously on" portion to use Summernator's line of how they are programmed to self repair. It's possible they could just fall back on that and say her systems recognized a fault and tho it took time, corrected it. The debris she pulled from her skull was close to the chip.


Maybe she needed a "cold reboot". She clearly was trying to kill him until she got pinned, and she was fine after he reinserted the chip.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

allan said:


> Maybe she needed a "cold reboot". She clearly was trying to kill him until she got pinned, and she was fine after he reinserted the chip.


windows is like that


----------



## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

allan said:


> Maybe she needed a "cold reboot". She clearly was trying to kill him until she got pinned, and she was fine after he reinserted the chip.


Kinda what I was thinking too, us computer geeks will reseat chips sometimes when things go wonky. 

But then again, none of the machines I built tried killing me.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

jradford said:


> I believe he said:
> 
> _"She *saved* my life."_ Pause, and then, _"She *saves* my life."_


That's what I heard too. I thought it was pretty powerful stuff.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> Obviously that was my initial reaction as well. But then I'm left with "magical chip-dusting" as my only other explanation for her later reversal... not exactly a great pair of choices, IMHO


Well, he also used a screwdriver on it.
All he really needed was some duct tape though...


----------



## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

After reading through this thread, I'm kinda bummed that I gave up on the show and deleted my SP. Maybe if ep #1 is going to be repeated, I'll get back on board.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Jeeters said:


> I had heard Shirley Manson was going to be in it, but I didn't know she was going to be terminator, let alone a T1000-type terminator. Glad that wasn't spoiled for me as it was really good surprise.


You mean to tell me that you didn't think she was a terminator the first moment you saw her?  



jradford said:


> I agree, the emotion while pinned between the trucks was standard terminator BS. That wasn't "Override Termination" stuff, and, like you, the fact that she said "I love you" was the biggest clue that it was all fake.
> 
> On your other point, I don't think she overrode her "terminate" mission for another sinister purpose. I think she overrode it because she's "different", (as John keeps saying,) and, at that moment, decided that she wanted to protect John rather than terminate him.


I look at it like this. Summernator has override programming that JC "hacked" in but the Jeep exploding jarred the chip loose and caused her to fall back on programming in ROM.
Once the chip got pulled, dusted off, and reseated all is well after a reboot.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

steve614 said:


> You mean to tell me that you didn't think she was a terminator the first moment you saw her?


She certainly didn't look entirely human, but I wasn't sure if she was vaguely inhuman in a robotic way, or vaguely inhuman in an aging rocker who doesn't realize she's aging way...


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

steve614 said:


> You mean to tell me that you didn't think she was a terminator the first moment you saw her?


Cardinal law of unnecessary guest stars...
I knew she was there for something

:up:


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I thought there was something fishy about the red head right away too. Obviously a machine. The toilet part I didn't see coming.

I also got the impression from John that he meant she would be needed to save his life in the future. The relationship between Sarah and John is so good. He knows that his life is more important than hers, so there's no heroic rescue--he just runs and leaves her. I did wonder why she asked Sarah to calll him--couldn't she do her voice?


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> Cardinal law of unnecessary guest stars...
> I knew she was there for something
> 
> :up:


Except that she's not a guest star, and is listed in the cast credits.

It seemed obvious to me she was going to be a terminator just from her dialog, but that she's a T1000 model was a great surprise.


----------



## TiVo Bum (Nov 6, 2004)

JYoung said:


> All he really needed was some duct tape though...


Isn't that all anybody really needs?


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I did wonder why she asked Sarah to calll him--couldn't she do her voice?


There must have been too much soot on the voice emulation section of her CPU chip.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> I did wonder why she asked Sarah to calll him--couldn't she do her voice?


That's a standard Terminator tactic as well. The T-1000 used it before on Sarah at the steel mill in T2. We know it didn't work on Sarah because she told the T-1000 to do something very rude and likely quite painful give that particular terminator's penchant for stabbing weapons.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Who did the Cover of "Samson and Delilah" at the beginning? It was great.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> Who did the Cover of "Samson and Delilah" at the beginning? It was great.


I had Shazam give it a listen for a full 15 seconds and it didn't come up with anything. One of the few times it's been stumped on music that wasn't a live recording.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Who did the Cover of "Samson and Delilah" at the beginning? It was great.


Some red-haired chick.. I think she's planning on branching out into acting, Fox might have put her in some robot show on Monday's...


http://www.tvsquad.com/2008/09/08/the-sarah-connor-chronicles-samson-and-delilah-season-premiere/


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> Who did the Cover of "Samson and Delilah" at the beginning? It was great.





Sirius Black said:


> I had Shazam give it a listen for a full 15 seconds and it didn't come up with anything. One of the few times it's been stumped on music that wasn't a live recording.





dianebrat said:


> Some red-haired chick.. I think she's planning on branching out into acting, Fox might have put her in some robot show on Monday's...


Further research led me to the same conclusion. From IGN:



> This time it's a cover of the song "Samson and Delilah," arranged and produced by series composer Bear McCreary and sung by Shirley Manson.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

balboa dave said:


> Except that she's not a guest star, and is listed in the cast credits.
> 
> It seemed obvious to me she was going to be a terminator just from her dialog, but that she's a T1000 model was a great surprise.


Bingo. It was obvious she was a T all along, but being a T1xxx truly was a surprise. Until now they haven't given us any indication that there would be one. They did a great job hiding the fact, as well.



dianebrat said:


> Some red-haired chick.. I think she's planning on branching out into acting, Fox might have put her in some robot show on Monday's...
> 
> 
> http://www.tvsquad.com/2008/09/08/the-sarah-connor-chronicles-samson-and-delilah-season-premiere/


Monday's what? I'm sure the contract negotiations went something like:

"Shirley Manson wants to audition."
"Marilyn Manson? Why would we want him on our show?"
"No, Shirley. She'll work for scale."
"Hell, no. She's never acted before."
"She'll sing anything you'd like, including 'Bad to the Bone.'"
"OK."

Greg


----------



## DrZoidberg42 (Oct 6, 2005)

I have a theory that may be wrong, but I get the feeling that the Summernator is a robot who has evolved and chose to become good, rather than having been reprogrammed. In this episode we pretty much saw her override her own programing and in last season she playfully told john, she is something else. Maybe the I Love You is genuine. I could just be reading too much into it.

Ryan


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

dcheesi said:


> Obviously that was my initial reaction as well. But then I'm left with "magical chip-dusting" as my only other explanation for her later reversal... not exactly a great pair of choices, IMHO


Nah. Right at that moment, as he sat there rubbing the pixie dust into the chip to make it work again, he figured out what he could (would, in the future) do to reprogram her in a more reliable way. And once he figured it out, it just trickled "down" to the Cameron in the present.

Now, as to what he figured out -- who knows.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

wprager said:


> Nah. Right at that moment, as he sat there rubbing the pixie dust into the chip to make it work again, he figured out what he could (would, in the future) do to reprogram her in a more reliable way. And once he figured it out, it just trickled "down" to the Cameron in the present.
> 
> Now, as to what he figured out -- who knows.


Perhaps he arranged for a trash can to be dropped on the police chief's head at that precise moment so that he could escape with his buddy and they could do their history report. 

Or, you know, the equivalent of that.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Sirius Black said:


> Perhaps he arranged for a trash can to be dropped on the police chief's head at that precise moment so that he could escape with his buddy and they could do their history report.
> 
> Or, you know, the equivalent of that.


Whoa!


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

jradford said:


> Again, I agree. I didn't get this at first, but that has to be it.


I think Sarah might have been "mistreated" by her captor prior to his being dispatched. The Uncle asked what he saw and she mentioned something along the lines of "everything", to which he responded "Damn".

Killing the guy would be tough, but watching your mom be assaulted in front of you would mess with your frelling head.


----------



## flatcurve (Sep 27, 2007)

jradford said:


> I believe he said:
> 
> _"She *saved* my life."_ Pause, and then, _"She *saves* my life."_


I don't think he was referring to a specific future event... just referring to what her purpose is and what she does for him basically every day. He's probably just assuming that he'll need her around to do it again.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TiVo Bum said:


> I don't think that he repaired the chip. The impression I got was that it was still damaged, hence the mission still being to terminate JC, but that Summernator deliberately overrode that mission. This seemed to me to be a direct reference back to the lady business executive's discussion earlier in the show about humans having the ability to do something totally random and how beautiful it would be if a computer/machine would be able to go against it's own programming.


That's how I interpreted that too. Also, ewww on the urinal-T1000. Couldn't she have transformed herself into a wall or something! 



Sirius Black said:


> It says a lot about how far we've come with CGI that a T-1000 can be placed in a TV show. Remember back in 1991 (I think) when Terminator 2 came out and the budget was over $100 million and the CGI was cutting edge and super expensive. Now it's used on a TV show.


Of course, the T2 effects, while certainly not wow-inducing anymore, still looked better than this. 



Jebberwocky! said:


> I really liked the begining - lots of action with music playing - sweet.


I thought that was kinda hokey. Everything in slo-mo and some random song playing over it. I'm tired of every show doing that.



tivoboyjr said:


> After reading through this thread, I'm kinda bummed that I gave up on the show and deleted my SP. Maybe if ep #1 is going to be repeated, I'll get back on board.


It's also available on hulu.com

I loved this episode, with some caveats. They've hit the right tone of silliness and seriousness, and the writing was good.


----------



## flatcurve (Sep 27, 2007)

LlamaLarry said:


> I think Sarah might have been "mistreated" by her captor prior to his being dispatched. The Uncle asked what he saw and she mentioned something along the lines of "everything", to which he responded "Damn".
> 
> Killing the guy would be tough, but watching your mom be assaulted in front of you would mess with your frelling head.


I don't think there was time for that.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

dcheesi said:


> If nothing else, it totally goes against the prevailing theme from Season 1, which was basically "machines don't have feelings and will go about things in a brutally amoral way, even when their with the 'good guys'." Here we have a damaged Terminator overriding her most basic programming because she "loves" her target...  I know, themes change, but it just seems like an odd change of direction.


Huh??? 

Did we watch the same Season 1? Cameron repeatedly diverged from her supposed programming. She saved the chip off that other terminator that John killed, for example. She tried to learn dancing and other things. Cromartie spared the FBI agent.

I don't know how we could have both watched the same episodes last season and come to completely opposite opinions.



DrZoidberg42 said:


> I have a theory that may be wrong, but I get the feeling that the Summernator is a robot who has evolved and chose to become good, rather than having been reprogrammed. In this episode we pretty much saw her override her own programing and in last season she playfully told john, she is something else. Maybe the I Love You is genuine. I could just be reading too much into it.


I think she was reprogrammed AND evolved. Stockholm syndrome, if you will.



LlamaLarry said:


> I think Sarah might have been "mistreated" by her captor prior to his being dispatched.  The Uncle asked what he saw and she mentioned something along the lines of "everything", to which he responded "Damn".
> 
> Killing the guy would be tough, but watching your mom be assaulted in front of you would mess with your frelling head.


It seems to me that they strongly implied that Sarah tortured the guy for information but didn't get any. Thus the uncle asking about whether they got the info and whether John witnessed it.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> Did we watch the same Season 1? Cameron repeatedly diverged from her supposed programming. She saved the chip off that other terminator that John killed, for example. She tried to learn dancing and other things. Cromartie spared the FBI agent.


Speaking of which, she also saved flesh from the terminator they destroyed. I had guessed she would somehow use it when the Jeep explosion destroyed all her skin, but I guess that wasn't it since the Jeep explosion didn't even really singe her hair.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

balboa dave said:


> Except that she's not a guest star, and is listed in the cast credits.
> 
> It seemed obvious to me she was going to be a terminator just from her dialog, but that she's a T1000 model was a great surprise.





gchance said:


> Bingo. It was obvious she was a T all along, but being a T1xxx truly was a surprise. Until now they haven't given us any indication that there would be one. They did a great job hiding the fact, as well.
> Greg


I totally missed every hint that she was a machine. I just thought she was a very stereotypical, overacted and unoriginal bad James Bond chick. My views have changed.


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

flatcurve said:


> I don't think there was time for that.





TAsunder said:


> It seems to me that they strongly implied that Sarah tortured the guy for information but didn't get any. Thus the uncle asking about whether they got the info and whether John witnessed it.


I guess so, to both, because a mom rape subtext would be pretty bold for primetime Fox.

I just don't think John would be so wishy washy about the stuff his mom does based on what had to have already happened in their past. Some boards seem to think that this would have been the first time John saw his mom kill someone and/or the first time Sarah has killed anyone and I find both *really* hard to believe. Seems to me it would take more than someone getting killed in front of John to make him unwind and cause everyone to worry about him so.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

For those that are saying that the terminators have set programming and can't deviate. Remember that the CPU inside all the terminators is a "learning computer". The more contact a terminator has with humans, the more it learns. In deleted scenes from Terminator 2, we learn that Skynet sets this switch to "off". Sarah asks the Governator if this is to keep the terminator from "thinking" to much. The Governator says "yes". They then proceed to take the chip out and 'flip the switch to on'. After they do this, Governator begins learning much more than he did before and in fact starts having a greater personality, if that is possible.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Yes, and this episode made it clear that Cromartie sparing Ellison was all part of the "chess game." The Turk/Skynet/Babylon is always thinking ahead to what advances their cause.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

LlamaLarry said:


> a mom rape subtext would be pretty bold for primetime Fox.


_*cough*24 season 1*cough*_ 

And that wasn't even subtext, it was, well... text.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Of course, the T2 effects, while certainly not wow-inducing anymore, still looked better than this.


You know, that recent T2 DirecTV commercial NAILED the effect. They had Robert Patrick speaking the joys of DirecTV, and the T1000 was happily sync'ed. Hard to believe a DirecTV commercial had a bigger budget than this, but you never know. Maybe they just had better CGI guys.



jradford said:


> I totally missed every hint that she was a machine. I just thought she was a very stereotypical, overacted and unoriginal bad James Bond chick. My views have changed.


Sure, she was a very stereotypical, overacted and unoriginal bad James Bond chick who happened to love, love, LOVE machines. And observing humans. And looking down on them.



busyba said:


> _*cough*24 season 1*cough*_
> 
> And that wasn't even subtext, it was, well... text.


Yeah, well, she got amnesia, so it's okay.

Greg


----------



## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

busyba said:


> Are you saying that you think all the stuff she was saying while pinned between the trucks ("I'm good now, I ran a test... I love you... etc...") was genuine?
> 
> I was under the impression that all that was Terminator BS... just saying what she thought would save herself so that she could carry out her "Terminate John Connor" mission. *She wasn't "fixed" until John blew the soot off the chip. *
> 
> ...


And what female Terminator wouldn't like that.


----------



## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

I thought the notion that John had killed the guy in the room with him and his mother was obvious, and when Sarah was responding to Uncle she was letting him believe it was her who had done it.

The chance he took at the end by reactivating Cameron was a little too unbelievable, though. Well, as unbelievable as you can get in a show about robots from the future.


----------



## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

Mars Rocket said:


> I thought the notion that John had killed the guy in the room with him and his mother was obvious, and when Sarah was responding to Uncle she was letting him believe it was her who had done it.
> 
> The chance he took at the end by reactivating Cameron was a little too unbelievable, though. Well, as unbelievable as you can get in a show about robots from the future.


But wouldn't he have known that she wouldn't kill him? If she kills him then he won't exist in the future to send her back, so then she wouldn't be there in the first (second?) place.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

sean67854 said:


> But wouldn't he have known that she wouldn't kill him? If she kills him then he won't exist in the future to send her back, so then she wouldn't be there in the first (second?) place.


My head did/does/will hurt!


----------



## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

You know, it's a miracle any of us exist at all. I think the fact that we do proves that there will never be time travel.


----------



## flatcurve (Sep 27, 2007)

sean67854 said:


> But wouldn't he have known that she wouldn't kill him? If she kills him then he won't exist in the future to send her back, so then she wouldn't be there in the first (second?) place.


But isn't the very reason all the terminators are being sent back is to kill him?

Man... I gotta sit down...


----------



## TheSlyBear (Dec 26, 2002)

flatcurve said:


> But isn't the very reason all the terminators are being sent back is to kill him?


No, it was specifically stated that some have other specific primary missions. But something cameron said leads me to believe that they all have standing orders to kill him if the opportunity comes up.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

sean67854 said:


> But wouldn't he have known that she wouldn't kill him? If she kills him then he won't exist in the future to send her back, so then she wouldn't be there in the first (second?) place.


So he shouldn't even bother trying to run away from the Terminators, since he knows he will survive no matter what?


----------



## Bardman (Aug 26, 2002)

Summer Glau must have watched T1 and T2 movies a few times between seasons to get the "Terminator with Broken leg" walk down pretty good. I couldn't help but flash back to Arnold limping as he "chased" after Linda Hamilton every time they showed her walking in this episode.

Also, I'm going to have to rewatch the last episode of S1, as it didn't sink in until the end when Sara told new haircut John "happy birthday" that we've had multiple episodes all in one day. Perhaps some old "24" writers are part of this show now...


----------



## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

busyba said:


> So he shouldn't even bother trying to run away from the Terminators, since he knows he will survive no matter what?


I do know you are being silly, but lets run with this.

No, he won't survive the others. If the others kill him, it doesn't make their actual being there a paradox, just their reason for being there. So far, with or without JC (just realized the "savior of humanity" has some coincidental initials), SkyNet still gets built, so the terminators will still exist.


----------



## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

When I first saw the redhead T1000 I thoght "Gee that looks like Shirley Manson ... nah."


----------



## flatcurve (Sep 27, 2007)

sean67854 said:


> I do know you are being silly, but lets run with this.
> 
> No, he won't survive the others. If the others kill him, it doesn't make their actual being there a paradox, just their reason for being there. So far, with or without JC (just realized the "savior of humanity" has some coincidental initials), SkyNet still gets built, so the terminators will still exist.


What I think is interesting is that no matter how the humans seem to foil the plans for SkyNet being built, it's almost an inevitable outcome. Wouldn't it stand to reason then that a human uprising would also be inevitable, and that if JC isn't the one to lead it, somebody else will?

Excellent for sequels and such...


----------



## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

Summer really did have the wounded Terminator walk down.


----------



## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

flatcurve said:


> What I think is interesting is that no matter how the humans seem to foil the plans for SkyNet being built, it's almost an inevitable outcome. Wouldn't it stand to reason then that a human uprising would also be inevitable, and that if JC isn't the one to lead it, somebody else will?
> 
> Excellent for sequels and such...


Kind of like the Dark Tower and the Matrix?


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Gregor said:


> Summer really did have the wounded Terminator walk down.


Idunno, I thought her limp was a little inconsistent at times. I wonder if being a trained dancer makes it easier or harder to maintain that awkward, unbalanced gait? All her classical training would be fighting against it...


----------



## Bob_Newhart (Jul 14, 2004)

I thought that Mayor Nagin did a fine job in this episode. I was surprised that one terminator didn't shoot him.


----------



## FlugPoP (Jan 7, 2004)

Great Show if you don't try and analyze it too much but its hard not to. Heros and SCC is on at the same time next week. Lets hope that Heros doesn't sink this show in ratings or Fox will drop it in a flash.


----------



## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

FlugPoP said:


> Great Show if you don't try and analyze it too much but its hard not to. Heros and SCC is on at the same time next week. Lets hope that Heros doesn't sink this show in ratings or Fox will drop it in a flash.


I just checked my Tivo. Heroes airs from 8-10pm MST on Mon, 9/22. Not next week. SCC airs from 7-8pm MST on Mon, 9/22. No overlap. There is a Heroes clip show on from 7-8pm, but who watches clip shows?

You had me worried there for a moment. My single tuner S2 can't handle two shows. SCC at 7 MST. Heroes at 8 MST. Just like last year. No problemo. I wonder if this is a pecularity of my local Fox station broadcasting the CST feed during primetime. Is there an MST Fox feed?


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

FlugPoP said:


> Heros and SCC is on at the same time next week.


_Heroes_ starts 22 September---not next week, but the week after.


----------



## TIVOSciolist (Oct 13, 2003)

MickeS said:


> That's how I interpreted that too. Also, ewww on the urinal-T1000. Couldn't she have transformed herself into a wall or something!


The producer says that he wanted to create something that was "every man's nightmare."

I must admit that, aside from dying by having a metal spike poked through my brain, the thought of dying with my penis hanging out of my pants is pretty scary.

http://io9.com/5048062/shirley-manson-talks-about-playing-the-worlds-worst-boss


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> _Heroes_ starts 22 September---not next week, but the week after.


And the "episode" of Heroes that is opposite SCC is a clip show.


----------



## classicX (May 10, 2006)

TIVOSciolist said:


> The producer says that he wanted to create something that was "every man's nightmare."
> 
> I must admit that, aside from dying by having a metal spike poked through my brain, the thought of dying with my penis hanging out of my pants is pretty scary.
> 
> http://io9.com/5048062/shirley-manson-talks-about-playing-the-worlds-worst-boss


I'm just shocked that he didn't run upon seeing the urinal melt - by the time she "reformed" there would have just been a cloud in the shape of me standing there.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

This was a great ep other than the never ending music at the start.

I liked how the new Terminator CEO was all dolled up in her Dr. Evil suit.


----------



## flatcurve (Sep 27, 2007)

TIVOSciolist said:


> The producer says that he wanted to create something that was "every man's nightmare."
> 
> I must admit that, aside from dying by having a metal spike poked through my brain, the thought of dying with my penis hanging out of my pants is pretty scary.
> 
> http://io9.com/5048062/shirley-manson-talks-about-playing-the-worlds-worst-boss





> How does Shirley "Garbage" Manson put the right amount of steely menace into evil CEO Catherine Weaver on Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles? She channels a little bit of Margaret Thatcher, the former U.K. prime minister, she told reporters in a conference call today.
> ...
> *It's not that Manson thinks Thatcher was an evil liquid metal robot from the future*, bent on bringing about the apocalypse, exactly.


I always thought Thatcher was a robot.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

dcheesi said:


> OTOH, T3 _did_ bother me, because it seemed to promote the rather ambiguous and unscientific notion of "fate". IMHO, either the timeline is fixed, and Judgement Day happens as stated in T1, or it's variable, and all bets are off. In T3 they suggested that this rather complex social/technological event is inevitable, even though the _timing_ of it could be changed... :down:


I don't think it was so much "fate" as it was the actions needed to prevent the event from occurring at all were intractable. Stopping an individual from building Skynet would simply result in someone else taking that person's place. So in the end, Future John Conner decided it was more important to focus on saving the future than changing the past.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

The Garbage chick being a liquid metal terminator was pretty cool. That put a smile on my face.

I love how John fixed the chip by rubbing it with a rag. I need to try that next time my PC has problems.

It was obvious to me that this show got a bigger budget compared to last year. Unless it was just a season premiere budget and then no more explosions the rest of the year.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Something about the Terminator CEO. 

Presumably, the person she is mimicking did actually exist. IIRC, Robert Patrick's Terminator didn't have much a personality. This Terminator does seem to have adopted a personality that is close enough to the person she is pretending to be. That must be some kind of upgrade in the software. 

Now, we have three terminators that are each doing something that is atypical for a terminator. 

We have River learning how to dance and eventually overriding her programming to terminate John Connor.

We have Cromartie allowing Agent Ellis to live for an as yet unknown reason. 

We have CEO Terminator adapting a personality that is close enough to the real CEO that she actually fools co-workers.

Talk about ghosts in the machine.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> Something about the Terminator CEO.
> 
> Presumably, the person she is mimicking did actually exist. IIRC, Robert Patrick's Terminator didn't have much a personality. This Terminator does seem to have adopted a personality that is close enough to the person she is pretending to be. That must be some kind of upgrade in the software.


In the interview that was linked to in this thread, I think Shirley Manson referred to herself as a T-1100 or something like that, so she's definitely supposed to be a better version than Patrick was.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

sean67854 said:


> Kind of like the Dark Tower and the Matrix?


Nice parallels.

Speaking of the Matrix - the vibe I got from Manson when she was talking to the guy who brought her the hard drive was definitely Agent Smith-esque.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I haven't read the whole thread, and it kind of annoyed me that they got a T1000 in here so soon... 

but it does kind of amaze me that nowadays they can do effects on TV that used to be state of the art in the movies, even if it was 17 years ago.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

It's really not all that impressive. They were doing Otto on DS9 like 10 years ago now?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Honestly, it's probably much easier to do the T-1000 effects than it is to do the T-800/T-888. Much more polys in those!


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## flatcurve (Sep 27, 2007)

Sirius Black said:


> Something about the Terminator CEO.
> 
> We have Cromartie allowing Agent Ellis to live for an as yet unknown reason.


When Ellis said that he would never lead him to her I assumed that Cromartie was keeping him alive for that very reason. He is the agent assigned to the Sarah Connor case after all.


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## mrmike (May 2, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> It's really not all that impressive. They were doing Otto on DS9 like 10 years ago now?


I think that's "Odo", and he wasn't reflective. That does make a difference.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> It's really not all that impressive. They were doing Otto on DS9 like 10 years ago now?


Odo, and those effects didn't include realistic reflections of the environment, which is the major hurdle in the T1000 animation. When Odo dissolved, they used a generic yellow-brown shifty-pattern for the skin...


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

flatcurve said:


> When Ellis said that he would never lead him to her I assumed that Cromartie was keeping him alive for that very reason. He is the agent assigned to the Sarah Connor case after all.


Cromartie doesn't need Ellis' help to do that. There are several ways to get to both Sarah and John and none of them directly involve Ellis.

That's what I think anyway.


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## flatcurve (Sep 27, 2007)

Sirius Black said:


> Cromartie doesn't need Ellis' help to do that. There are several ways to get to both Sarah and John and none of them directly involve Ellis.
> 
> That's what I think anyway.


True, but maybe he was smart enough to realize that he shouldn't destroy all of his options. If Ellis was going to show his hand regarding his knowledge of the terminator's existence, he wouldn't have covered up the raid by ID'ing the dead cromartie as the guy who did it. The terminator Cromartie knows that Ellis won't talk, probably won't come after him, and isn't a threat. He could potentially be useful in the future, so better to keep him alive.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

flatcurve said:


> True, but maybe he was smart enough to realize that he shouldn't destroy all of his options. If Ellis was going to show his hand regarding his knowledge of the terminator's existence, he wouldn't have covered up the raid by ID'ing the dead cromartie as the guy who did it. The terminator Cromartie knows that Ellis won't talk, probably won't come after him, and isn't a threat. He could potentially be useful in the future, so better to keep him alive.


Dude has been tracking him down for some time and witnessed a boatload of his colleagues get slaughtered. Why wouldn't he go after cromartie?


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## TheSlyBear (Dec 26, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Why wouldn't he go after cromartie?


Futility?


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## flatcurve (Sep 27, 2007)

TAsunder said:


> Dude has been tracking him down for some time and witnessed a boatload of his colleagues get slaughtered. Why wouldn't he go after cromartie?


Maybe he recognized the futility of it? Really though, only future episodes will tell as to how he deals with the burden of this new knowledge. I feel like the questions of why he was kept alive is probably going to be important to the plot at some point. I mean, we're discussing the heck out of it already.


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## ruexp67 (Jan 16, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Who did the Cover of "Samson and Delilah" at the beginning? It was great.


Sounded like Shirley Manson to me, perhaps Garbage. Given that she is in the show, it seems likely.


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

ruexp67 said:


> Sounded like Shirley Manson to me, perhaps Garbage. Given that she is in the show, it seems likely.


It was her.


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## alpacaboy (Oct 29, 2004)

Oooh! Oooh! Can we get an episode of Terminator: The Musical?


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## jeepair (Apr 22, 2004)

Hoffer said:


> The Garbage chick being a liquid metal terminator was pretty cool. That put a smile on my face.
> 
> I love how John fixed the chip by rubbing it with a rag. I need to try that next time my PC has problems.
> 
> It was obvious to me that this show got a bigger budget compared to last year. Unless it was just a season premiere budget and then no more explosions the rest of the year.


Haven't you ever had a bad ram chip or something else with an edge connector which stopped working? Take a pencil eraser to it and shine up the contacts and presto, the device works again.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

alpacaboy said:


> Oooh! Oooh! Can we get an episode of Terminator: The Musical?


"Once More, Without Feeling"?


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

jeepair said:


> Haven't you ever had a bad ram chip or something else with an edge connector which stopped working? Take a pencil eraser to it and shine up the contacts and presto, the device works again.


Heck, for a NES Cart, just blow into it...


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

dcheesi said:


> "Once More, Without Feeling"?


*applause*

Well played sir.


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## Thaed (Nov 25, 2003)

busyba said:


> *applause*
> 
> Well played sir.


Here, here!

/starts thinking about a Joss Whedon take on the Terminator universe...


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

Thaed said:


> Here, here!
> 
> /starts thinking about a Joss Whedon take on the Terminator universe...


In the Whedon-verse, Cameron's blow to the head scrambles her/its circuits and she/it falls in love with Sarah instead of John (which would be mildly ironic because the Summernator is named after the ex-husband of the original Sarah Connor).


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

dcheesi said:


> Odo, and those effects didn't include realistic reflections of the environment, which is the major hurdle in the T1000 animation. When Odo dissolved, they used a generic yellow-brown shifty-pattern for the skin...


Yeah, Odo was pretty crappy CG.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I haven't read through this whole thread, but count me as one who was disappointed in this premiere. I thought it was slow, and certainly didn't move any plot lines along much. And the "emotional" Summernator made me laugh...it was so out of character, not for Summer, but for the show. Bleh....I hope it picks it up and quick...otherwise my SP is history....


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

jradford said:


> I believe he said:
> 
> _"She *saved* my life."_ Pause, and then, _"She *saves* my life."_


That's "confirmed" with closed captioning (which, I know, can been erroneous).


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> I haven't read through this whole thread, but count me as one who was disappointed in this premiere. I thought it was slow, and certainly didn't move any plot lines along much. And the "emotional" Summernator made me laugh...it was so out of character, not for Summer, but for the show. Bleh....I hope it picks it up and quick...otherwise my SP is history....


There was no '"emotional" Summernator': she was pretending. That was a trick she was using to try to keep from being shut down. At the end she was back to her completely unemotional self.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

madscientist said:


> There was no '"emotional" Summernator': she was pretending. That was a trick she was using to try to keep from being shut down. At the end she was back to her completely unemotional self.


That was my point (though I probably didn't express myself well). I realize she was pretending (that's why I put quotes around the word emotional); but it was so far overdone, that I found myself laughing. I just didn't get the love that most have expressed for this ep. Hoping it improves...


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Good point about Odo but it was pretty good fir it's time.

I didn't notice the refections on t-1001


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

DrZoidberg42 said:


> I have a theory that may be wrong, but I get the feeling that the Summernator is a robot who has evolved and chose to become good, rather than having been reprogrammed. In this episode we pretty much saw her override her own programing and in last season she playfully told john, she is something else. Maybe the I Love You is genuine. I could just be reading too much into it.
> 
> Ryan


Well, how many robots you know that can do ballet???


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

DeathRider said:


> Well, how many robots you know that can do ballet???


6


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

danterner said:


> 6


actually, the answer is 8...not 6...

8 from BSG 

Cromartie's reason for not killing the FBI guy can be as simple as this: he posed no threat to him and was not trying to kill him. the FBI guy is not part of his mission, therefore, there was no reason to kill him. very computer-like thinking...


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Anubys said:


> actually, the answer is 8...not 6...
> 
> 8 from BSG
> 
> Cromartie's reason for not killing the FBI guy can be as simple as this: he posed no threat to him and was not trying to kill him. the FBI guy is not part of his mission, therefore, there was no reason to kill him. very computer-like thinking...


The scene at the end where the FBI guy and Cromartie run into each other at the crime scene pretty much laid out his resoning.

"I'll never lead you to them"
"We'll see."


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

zuko3984 said:


> I didn't know Shirley Manson from Garabage was going to be in it let alone have what seems like is going to be a big part. I knew she could sing but didn't know she could act but so far she seems pretty good.


Well, she's only having to act as someone who can't act, though, so it's not that challenging.



TiVo Bum said:


> I don't think that he repaired the chip. The impression I got was that it was still damaged, hence the mission still being to terminate JC, but that Summernator deliberately overrode that mission. This seemed to me to be a direct reference back to the lady business executive's discussion earlier in the show about humans having the ability to do something totally random and how beautiful it would be if a computer/machine would be able to go against it's own programming.


Very interesting idea; I hadn't made that connection.



Gregor said:


> Gotta love while the guy was complaining about the boss, she's disguised as the urinal he's using.


Convenient for her -- okay, more for the cameraman -- he happened to pick that urinal, too. Of course, I wonder what happened to the old urinal.



dcheesi said:


> The whole thing with her magically "fixing" herself kinda bothered me; it just kind of felt like a cop-out. They basically got to their eat their cake and have it, too. They got to do their little "OMG, she's gone bad!" twist, without having to destroy Summernator to do end it.


I don't agree -- it's just the way they did it. Realistically, she's too big a resource to throw away, you have to at least try to fix her. You'd do it under your own conditions, though. For instance, cut off her head, lock it in a box, build something to yank the chip out remotely, and then try it and see what happens. But maybe that'd be boring to watch, and they wanted the splashy "let's just trust the homicidal robot and see what happens" approach for the drama of it. In my mind I'm imagining that's just a compressed version of a more sensible storyline.



classicX said:


> And to the person who thought that it was a mistake to keep racking up bodies - she was in there eavesdropping to see how they would react. She probably believed that the AI guy would start asking around and get too nosey, so better to nip it in the bud before he starts making other people curious. Notice how the other guy who couldn't care less also didn't get killed.
> 
> If he'd kept his mouth shut, he probably would have been allowed to go about his business, wash up, and go home.


That doesn't change the fact that dead bodies attract attention in a way that makes it hard to be sneaky about your business dealings. But that's a flaw in reasoning all the Terminators have had since day one: Ahhnold left bodies behind just to get better shoes, assuming that a big pile of police involvement wouldn't be a problem for him. Turned out he was right about that one, but there are other situations where a Terminator could have done better not to kill someone, but did it anyway. Good thing for humanity.



flatcurve said:


> What I think is interesting is that no matter how the humans seem to foil the plans for SkyNet being built, it's almost an inevitable outcome. Wouldn't it stand to reason then that a human uprising would also be inevitable, and that if JC isn't the one to lead it, somebody else will?


Obviously, yes, but the someone else might not be as good. Might not have John's balance of military and tactical knowledge, tech skills, and leadership charisma.



Sirius Black said:


> We have Cromartie allowing Agent Ellis to live for an as yet unknown reason.


That doesn't have to be any big mystery: Ellis probably does something important in the process of Skynet being built eventually. I thought that even last season after Cromartie spared him, but the "I won't do the devil's work" / "We'll see" thing clinched it. It's perfectly within their programming not to hurt someone who it knows will do something important and necessary to Skynet's plans later. And it doesn't have to have anything to do with leading to them; there's a lot more going on.



dcheesi said:


> "Once More, Without Feeling"?


Or depending on your preferred time travel theory, many times more?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

according the Washington Post, the show has done really bad numbers for the first ep and even worse ratings for this one...something like 5.6 million viewers (don't quote me on the numbers)...I'm afraid this show is not long for this world


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Hunter Green said:


> Or depending on your preferred time travel theory, many times more?


But wouldn't that just be the same time, over and over?


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## TiVo Bum (Nov 6, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But wouldn't that just be the same time, over and over?


Then maybe it should be _Deja Vu, Without Feeling. _


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Anubys said:


> according the Washington Post, the show has done really bad numbers for the first ep and even worse ratings for this one...something like 5.6 million viewers (don't quote me on the numbers)...I'm afraid this show is not long for this world


Just another reason to say *BIHF!*


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## alpacaboy (Oct 29, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But wouldn't that just be the same time, over and over?





TiVo Bum said:


> Then maybe it should be _Deja Vu, Without Feeling. _


Groundhog Judgement?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

jwjody said:


> I don't think Summernator is pretending. Her "readout" showed Terminate, then Override. Makes you wonder if the machine meant it when she said she loved John.
> 
> From previews:
> 
> ...


Sorry if this is a Smeek. Just finished the episode. But the T1000 talked about finding a computer that would cross against the light. That isn't logical. Perhaps Cameron has evolved. Perhaps she can now cross against the light.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

WTF? What a stupid way to start the second season! I guess all new writers came in and thought "oh cool, let's make Cameron bad, but then good again!" Bzzz. Bad move. :down:


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Bzzz. Bad move.


Why? It raises a couple of interesting issues for the season:

Will Cameron go bad again?
Is Cameron different now?
Did John really fix Cameron or did she override her programming?
Will/did Cameron and future John have some kind of relationship?


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> Why? It raises a couple of interesting issues for the season:
> 
> Will Cameron go bad again?
> Is Cameron different now?
> ...


Put yourself in his shoes. A cyborg from the future with the ability to kill anyone is out to get you. By an extreme amount of luck you managed to subdue. You're going to risk your life (and by extension billions of others in the future) on the hunch that by polishing her chip you fixed it? Phenomenally stupid writing.


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## Thaed (Nov 25, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Put yourself in his shoes. A cyborg from the future with the ability to kill anyone is out to get you. By an extreme amount of luck you managed to subdue. You're going to risk your life (and by extension billions of others in the future) on the hunch that by polishing her chip you fixed it? Phenomenally stupid writing.


Not as bad as the opener to Heroes. Oh my what a stinker that was. I'm very sad to hear that T:TSCC is suffering in the ratings. I thought it was a hit.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Put yourself in his shoes. A cyborg from the future with the ability to kill anyone is out to get you. By an extreme amount of luck you managed to subdue. You're going to risk your life (and by extension billions of others in the future) on the hunch that by polishing her chip you fixed it? Phenomenally stupid writing.


I didn't think it was stupid from a storytelling point of view. It made sense for the character to do it. He was showing his independence and defiance, and he had to trust his feelings about it. It was worth the gamble to him.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

MickeS said:


> I didn't think it was stupid from a storytelling point of view. It made sense for the character to do it. He was showing his independence and defiance, and he had to trust his feelings about it. It was worth the gamble to him.


Not to mention, he's a teenager. Teenagers do stupid stuff all the time. It's part of growing up, I suppose.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

I can't wait for next week when Sarah is turned against John and he has to convince her not to kill him! Will he do it? Will he ever be able to trust her again? Stay tuned!


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Put yourself in his shoes. A cyborg from the future with the ability to kill anyone is out to get you. By an extreme amount of luck you managed to subdue. You're going to risk your life (and by extension billions of others in the future) on the hunch that by polishing her chip you fixed it? Phenomenally stupid writing.


The thing is, he can't afford not to have her. He knows he needs her, both because he knows the odds against him, and because he knows his future self knew he'd need her. She's simply too valuable a resource to throw away.

What was stupid wasn't bringing her back; it was doing it so recklessly. Why not take your time about it? Cut off the head, pin the body inside something secure, strap bombs to all its parts, maybe one that will yank the chip out remotely. Develop a battery of tests. Put the chip in and do the tests. If they don't work perfectly, repeat until you do. When you're finally _sure_, only then let the robot reassemble itself.

Sure, that would be expensive in terms of time and resources, and they are on the run; but that doesn't justify the complete opposite version: brush the chip off, turn the robot on where you can't even get a good head start, and then practically hand her a gun!


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