# Goodbye Tivo, hello VIP-622



## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

I finally made the switch. I've dumped D* for E*.

I've only played with the 622 for a few hours, but I thought it would be useful to give some comparisons between the two DVRs (and the two providers!)

Called E* on Monday, installer came today (Wed), on-time. E*'s installation only needs a single coax, which can be convenient. I already had plenty of coax in place, so that wasn't an issue. One thing I found out when the D* dish came down was that the installer did a pathetic job. The LNB had one screw with no nut holding it on, the coax connectors were about to fall off, etc. E* also called to tell me the installer was on the way, and then called again to confirm he actually showed up.

E* installer was quick, professional, and thorough.

Ok, so much for the install. The 622 takes about as long as the HR10 to go through its initial startup. It has a *lot* more features than the HR10, but I'm not sure how useful they'll turn out to be.

So, immediate differences:

The OTA tuner in the 622 blows the HR10 away. I was getting 2 OTA channels with the HR10. I get 14 with the 622. Same antenna, same coax, same everything. But, one reason for the extra performance is that the HR10 uses an internal splitter to route the OTA signal to the two tuners. The 622 has 2 satellite tuners and one dedicated OTA tuner. Upside, better sensitivity. Downside, you can only record one OTA channel at a time. But, you can simultaneously record two other sat channels, for a total of 3 concurrent recordings!

The 622 has a lot more menu selections. Not sure if that actually means anything useful yet.

It's easier on the HR10 to just point to a guide selection and press record. On the 622, an options window pops up. You can select a bunch of options, such as single recording, repeat, start and end time offsets, etc. I suppose this is nice, but it's not quite as 'immediate'. Maybe I'll like it better after a while.

I like the 622's guide, mostly because when the guide is up, the current channel is displayed using the picture-in-picture capabilities. Speaking of which, PIP (at least for me) is a good enough reason to switch to the 622 all in itself! Yes, you can watch two channels at once! (two sat, or one sat - one ota)

The 622 will output to two different TVs, one HD, one SD, each can watch a different channel. I don't care about this myself. There are some restrictions about recordings when both TVs are enabled, because each of them will be using a tuner. I just put the thing in 'single' mode.

The 622 has the hardware to support an external disk, and also has a USB port. As far as I know, neither are currently supported, but supposedly will be enabled in the future.

Like the HR10, the 622 can output in component or HDMI. I use HDMI. It (finally) worked on the HR10, it worked right off the bat with the 622.

The 622 has a lot of pseudo-video-on-demand, as well as a number of interactive features. You can view your bill, change your programming package, get immediate local weather, and a lot of other stuff I haven't looked at yet.

The program buffer for the current program is *two hours* on the 622, as compared to 30 minutes on the HR10. This, I like.

One more big plus... E* actually seems to be interested in fixing bugs. Software updates are reasonably frequent. When was the last time you saw an update from D*?

That's about all I've had time to look at so far. Let me know if anyone wants more info as I play with this thing. My initial impression is that, yes, it's different. No, it's not necessarily better or worse than a Tivo... some things are better, some are worse.

Lastly, E* has 29 channels of HD. Now. More on the way, and not a year from now. My brief impression is that E* transmits with more bandwidth; the HD (the HD that's real HD, that is) looks better. Could just be the MPEG4 encoding, but I think that E* actually has more delivered HD bandwith at this point.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Two remarks for you, although I should probably look at the Dish forum on DBS Talk.
1) Does the 622 know of time changes when you set up a repeating recording?
2) I looked at those HD channels that Dish offers and I wasn't impressed.


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## tazzmission (Oct 15, 2002)

Thanks for the info and please follow up. I am getting sick of DirecTV myself. I might wait a bit longer for the Series 3 TiVo and go back to cable though.


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## ja1 (Jun 18, 2003)

How does someone "who has only played with the 622 for a few hours" know that "software updates are reasonably frequent"? Are they fixing the software every 1/2 hour?

Just kidding of course. What's keeping me from switching is that I have 2 HDTVs with HDTiVos and only pay $75 month for DTV service. To switch to Dish or Comcast with two HD DVRS seemd to be close to double.


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## tazzmission (Oct 15, 2002)

ja1 said:


> How does someone "who has only played with the 622 for a few hours" know that "software updates are reasonably frequent"? Are they fixing the software every 1/2 hour?
> 
> Just kidding of course. What's keeping me from switching is that I have 2 HDTVs with HDTiVos and only pay $75 month for DTV service. To switch to Dish or Comcast with two HD DVRS seemd to be close to double.


Double, damn. It would not cost me double to switch. Do you buy the VIP 622 or lease it?


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

wje said:


> I finally made the switch. I've dumped D* for E*.
> 
> I've only played with the 622 for a few hours, but I thought it would be useful to give some comparisons between the two DVRs (and the two providers!)
> 
> .


Questions:

How would you compare SD PQ?

Does the 622 have different stretch modes in 1080i so that sd shows are watchable in 1080i?

Does 622 have folders?

Does it have 30 second skip built in or do you have to program it?

Does it have tick marks every 15 minutes?

Is there a long "please wait" period when you select a show to record?

Is there on-screen caller ID?

Is a phone line mandatory?

Thank you.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

ja1 said:


> How does someone "who has only played with the 622 for a few hours" know that "software updates are reasonably frequent"? Are they fixing the software every 1/2 hour?...


Sounds like a somewhat sarcastic question, but you are not that far from being right on. So I'll play along and give a straight answer.

Software updates are indeed frequent from E*. As an owner of 3 of their PVRs from 2001 to 2005, I can certainly vouch for that. Since I've had DTV for the last 2 years, I have seen only 1 for my SD Tivo, and none for my HD Tivos.

But the frequency of updates is very telling. E* usually broke more than they fixed with each update, and most of them were frantic damage control. The E* PVRs (of that era, at least) sorely needed frequent updates, or at least a single update that would fix everything, which they never got. But God love 'em, they sure kept trying, leaving a wake of wiped HDDs behind them every few weeks.

Tivo, on the other hand, doesn't really need updates, because it already works. The 6.2 update to the SD boxes did indeed bring a lot of needed speed and a couple of nifty features that I would love to see on my HD units, but they really work just fine without them.

So, how frequent the updates are is more of an indicator of how incompetent the programmers may or may not be, or how desperate they are to fix previous updates, and usually has very little to do with how motivated they are to deliver a good product and keep it current.

I'd much rather have slightly antiquated ancillary features, terrific original basic features, a friendly GUI, system stability, easy storage expandability, and rare upgrades that always improve the platform than I would mediocre original basic features, terrific ancillary features, unreliability, difficult or impossible expandability, and upgrades that shoot from the hip and typically leave you in a worse state than before the upgrade. Knowing an upgrade was imminent from E* was like waiting to be mugged in a dark alley.


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> Sounds like a somewhat sarcastic question, but you are not that far from being right on. So I'll play along and give a straight answer.
> 
> Software updates are indeed frequent from E*. As an owner of 3 of their PVRs from 2001 to 2005, I can certainly vouch for that. Since I've had DTV for the last 2 years, I have seen only 1 for my SD Tivo, and none for my HD Tivos.
> 
> ...


Exactly! I always knew right away when E* had updated the software on my 522 DVR. It had lost all of the timers or even the recordings. God how I despised E*'s ultra buggy pieces of rat **** dvr's! Directv will REALLY have to screw up their dvr's (and they're on their way with the R15) before I'd ever consider giving E* another dollar. I'd probably go with cable before E*. This last year+ with Directivo's has been wonderful compared to the nightmare that was Dish Notwork.

The only reason I'd go back to Dish is for all the HD channels. They absolutely kill what Directv offers. I couldn't live with a one OTA tuner dvr though after my HR10-250.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

Uh-oh, here were go again.

link

Better put the flame retardant suit on


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

JimSpence said:


> Two remarks for you, although I should probably look at the Dish forum on DBS Talk.
> 1) Does the 622 know of time changes when you set up a repeating recording?
> 2) I looked at those HD channels that Dish offers and I wasn't impressed.


Actually that is one question and one remark. 
To answer your question, yes but I believe it has to fall within a 1-4 hour window.

Timers (Seaons Passes) can be set for daily, weekly, and Mon-friday. Or you can set up a Dish pass (wishlist) and get everything. This has pluses and minuses. As with all DVR's it good to check your "To Do" list once a week.

My remark would be StarzHD and Rave are nice and its not like dish is charging more.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

fastep said:


> Questions:
> 
> How would you compare SD PQ?
> 
> ...


No folders. Skip is 30 seconds FWD, 10 back. There are tick marks but it looks more like 4 ticks per program, not program time . However, I haven't figured out if there is a jump to the tick mark like tivo. Annoying but 300X F-fwd is OK. I haven't noticed much of wait when selecting a show for recording. Yes, on screen caller ID. Dish requires a phone line or will charge you an additional fee. It also has the always controversial "Recording Hours remainings" listed.

Now when's that series 3 coming out? it would compliment this box nicely for OTA.


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## HD Boyg (May 5, 2004)

One OTA tuner is definately a show stopper for me. Most of my season passes are OTA and I'm often recording two shows at once. I guess it wouldn't matter as much if I lived in an area that had HD LIL.


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## Dssturbo1 (Feb 23, 2005)

this is dish's 3rd generation hd dvr. it still seems to be their choice to limit to one ota recording capability. agree with hd borg i need 2 ota tuners which dish does not give you.

and as tyrone points out dish does have software updates way too frequently that actually screw things up in many cases instead of the fix they are tryng to do at the time.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

The 622 is a nice box, but it is a little unfair to compare it to an HR10-250 (though the OTA comparasions are accurate).

DirecTV has sat on software updates for the HR10-250 for what seems like forever.

I was a early Dish DVR (original Dishplayer) user and I used to dread software updates - glad to hear that might be getting better.

But for me to go back to Dish - they'd have to have Tivo on their DVRs and carry the YES network.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

TyroneShoes said:


> ... But the frequency of updates is very telling. E* usually broke more than they fixed with each update, and most of them were frantic damage control. The E* PVRs (of that era, at least) sorely needed frequent updates, or at least a single update that would fix everything, which they never got. But God love 'em, they sure kept trying, leaving a wake of wiped HDDs behind them every few weeks. ...


The waterfall method of software development strikes again. 

Good software will never be written using that approach.


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## Dick Kalagher (Jan 13, 2000)

Is it true that you need two dishes for E* if you want HD and regular programming? do htey have locals in HD?


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## elbodude (Feb 15, 2005)

Does the 622 have dual buffers?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> The 622 is a nice box, but it is a little unfair to compare it to an HR10-250 (though the OTA comparasions are accurate).
> 
> DirecTV has sat on software updates for the HR10-250 for what seems like forever.
> 
> ...


I've never had Dish, but I've looked into it a few times. The fact that YES is not available is the biggest single reason I haven't switched. If they suddenly offered Dish, I'd think more about it. (Dish not having TiVo is a close second.)


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

Are you paying the extra fees for using OTA locals?

Do you get your locals via E* ? If so, how does the PQ commpare to OTA?

How much does it cost for the bigger HD pack with 29 HD channels? I seem to recall it being $20/month.

Did your overall monthly cost go up, down, stay even, or learch sideways into Jersey?

Will you please update us after you have used it for a month or two. Thanks.


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## maback (Aug 13, 2005)

On DISH , the base package with all HD channels except National Geographic is $49. Yes, dish network does NOT charge you extra for the HD channels! The base package seems to have all the channels that I currently pay Directv $45 for, but then you have to pay extra for HD on Directv. So for an aditional $4 I'll get 28 HD channels. Hmmm...


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

ja1 said:


> How does someone "who has only played with the 622 for a few hours" know that "software updates are reasonably frequent"? Are they fixing the software every 1/2 hour?
> 
> Just kidding of course. What's keeping me from switching is that I have 2 HDTVs with HDTiVos and only pay $75 month for DTV service. To switch to Dish or Comcast with two HD DVRS seemd to be close to double.


I know by monitoring the VIP-622 newsgroup over at dbstalk!  They had updates fairly fequently early on, a month or two apart. Less frequent now. They seemed to try to get an update out if someone found a serious problem. From the newsgroup, E* CS also would connect people with new issues to an engineer, rather than giving the normal D* response of 'we never heard of that problem'.

More feedback this weekend.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

fastep said:


> Questions:
> 
> How would you compare SD PQ?
> 
> ...


I don't have answers to all these yet, not enough play time. Here's what I know so far:

SD PQ: about the same, possibly a bit better.

Stretch modes: yes, same as Tivo

30 Sec skip: I think so, haven't confirmed

Tick marks: haven't paid attention. I'll check. It DOES tell you how much HD and SD recording space you have left!

Long wait: No! It's fast, fast, fast. Also, in the guide and virtually every menu, it uses the PIP capability so you continue to see and hear the channel you're on. Wonderful feature.

Caller ID: Yes, plus a caller-id history page you can clear.

Phone line: they say the same as D* does, mandatory if you want PPV or some interactive features. So, I'd guess you can get away without it.

Other little things I've noticed:

There are 3 builtin channel lists, all, ones you get, and HD-only. FOUR user-definable lists, which is another wonderful feature for me. Also, in the all channel list, the ones you aren't subscribed to are displayed in red. This is also wonderful, since you know what you can see without trying to figure out what's in your package, etc.

The way recordings are scheduled is totally different, and I'm still getting used to it. It does seem to be easier to set various parameters (one-time, new, etc), but I'm reserving judgement until I set up more recordings.

The concept of 'season pass' is there, but again in a different form. You can schedule repeat recordings of a show using the same filters as the Tivo (all, new, etc) of a show, or set up a search pattern that can include the title or information in the program description. Then, any matching show on any channel will be recorded. Of course, if your search pattern isn't specific enough, you'll get a lot of stuff recorded!

This puppy runs HOT! I thought the HR10 put out a lot of heat, but this one gets toasty! It does have a nice temp monitor that shows hi, lo, and average temp of the disk drive.

It also has an Ethernet port. Missed that the first time. It has 2 USB ports, one on the front, one on the back. You can display images from a USB memory stick.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

Dick Kalagher said:


> Is it true that you need two dishes for E* if you want HD and regular programming? do htey have locals in HD?


Depends upon where you live. Western/Southern states can use one dish, the Dish 1000. If you live in the Northeast (not sure how northeast), you need two dishes. I'm in NH; installer told me 2 would be better, 1 would be very marginal. Both dishes are the typical small DBS dishes. Yes, I get my major locals in HD (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX).

In answer to another poster's question, you don't have to pay any extra for OTA capability. If you want locals via satellite, it's $5, just like D*.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

jfh3 said:


> The 622 is a nice box, but it is a little unfair to compare it to an HR10-250 (though the OTA comparasions are accurate).


The reason for the comparision is that's what's available from the two providers.

An interesting side note: when I called yesterday to cancel with D* (which actually was my most pleasant interaction with their CS in a long time!), the customer-retention rep said a few things (keep in mind, this IS a CS rep):

1) no major HD rollout by D* until next year
2) no HR20 availability for at least another 6 months
3) they've been losing a lot of HD customers to E* because of 1 & 2

I was really surprised the rep would be so straighforward. If they'd treated me this way while I was a customer, I'd probably still be a customer.

As for #3, the installer said the same thing, so maybe there's some truth to it.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> But the frequency of updates is very telling. E* usually broke more than they fixed with each update, and most of them were frantic damage control. The E* PVRs (of that era, at least) sorely needed frequent updates, or at least a single update that would fix everything, which they never got. But God love 'em, they sure kept trying, leaving a wake of wiped HDDs behind them every few weeks.
> 
> Tivo, on the other hand, doesn't really need updates, because it already works. The 6.2 update to the SD boxes did indeed bring a lot of needed speed and a couple of nifty features that I would love to see on my HD units, but they really work just fine without them.


Gee, Ty, this seems to be one of your hot buttons! 
I somewhat agree, but not completely. I'd rather have someone at least try to fix things rather than ignore the problem. How long did we have to wait for the HR10 updates to fix a number of serious issues? A long time, and a lot of crap from D* CS reps saying 'gee, we never heard of that problem'.

The real issue is that both E* and D* rushed stuff out to try to stay competitive. The software has complex real-time demands, and you can't just slap code together and hope it works. Personally, I was *really* po'd at spending $1K for an HR10 that didn't work worth beans, having hardware and software problems. At least, the 622 is a lot cheaper! So far, it works better, too.

I know first-hand the kind of pressure their developers are under; I have to try to get code written in half the time I need all the time. Our customers are a *lot* more demanding thant lowly consumers, because our software runs most of the major telcos in the world. It breaks, we suffer greatly! So, if your phone stops working, just blame me.


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## sealslayer (Jan 31, 2003)

I actually signed up for dish service, but ended up up staying with DirecTv for a couple of reasons.

1. I could not get a straight answer out of their customer service as to what HD locals they supported. They kept insisting that they would support WB, but all the research I did indicated otherwise. Finally it became apparent that they would support only ABC, NBC, CBS, and FOX; but I was given no firm commitment as to when.
2. The VIP-622 supports HD, but the second tuner down converts to 480i. I could live with this if I had two units. Unfortuneatly, at the time, I could get any firm dates from retailers for the second VIP-622. They said 3-4 weeks and I didn't want to wait.
3. It was going to cost me more to move to dish and I really could not get a firm answer from anyone on picture quality on dish.

Because of the many unknowns (and frankly poor customer support from the dish service reps), I ended up cancelling my order and staying with direct. I think that I might have stuck with Dish if the Vip-622 did not downconvert on the second tuner. To me, that was actually a big deal. The other thing was the cost to move to dish was quite a bit more. I would probably have never considered dish had I not lost OTA capbility on my move. Now I'm re-thinking that decision because it sounds like the hr20 won't be available in time for the fall season and I really want the capability to record HD locals. 

My understanding is that DISH is having more problems with lip syncing that direct, especially with the mpeg4 content. Haven't noticed it yet with my HR10-250. Has anyone experienced this issue with the vip-622 (and not with the HR10-250)?


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

wje said:


> Phone line: they say the same as D* does, mandatory if you want PPV or some interactive features. So, I'd guess you can get away without it.


Uh, NOT quite...

On D*, if you do not have a phone line, you do NOT get hit with an extra $5 for the 2nd tuner - on E*, you DO. So yea, you can get away w/out it, but you WILL pay for it!


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

I am committed to D* and the HR10 but I thought I would take advantage of the June lease offer for new E* subscribers and get the 622. You have to pay $200 upfront for the 622 but with a HD pkg you get it back at $20/mo over 10 mos. Also you can choose the 18 month commitment and get a 30 day money back guarantee or optout of the commitment and cancel without penalty at any time (except for $200 for the 622 and programming). 

After 2 weeks I can say that the 622 is a good stable DVR but it lacks the TiVo interface which I have enjoyed since I used the first TiVo model to come on the market. The only problem I've had is with low signal strength on one satellite, the 129 containing a lot of HD channels. Original they installed a Dish 1000, single dish for three sats, similar to the D* phase III. In the center of the US, this dish works ok but here on the west coast the signal strength on the 129 is marginal and E* came back and installed two Dish 500's last Wed., one dedicated to the 129. This improved the signal strength but it hasn't rained here and probably won't for many months so the jury is out. 

The main advantage is all the HD channels which D* lacks and the PQ on those channels on both, E* has the advantage. Like D* HD LIL channels, the E* HD LIL channels do not have as good PQ as cable or OTA. But they are supposedly working to improve that.


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## Bass Cadet (Jun 30, 2006)

I also made the jump and had the ViP622 (and a ViP211) installed Monday.

Being a long time TiVo user (5 year old lifetimed Series 1), I prefer TiVo's UI but was able to set up 3 "DishPASS"es without any problems. Right now, I would choose the Series 1's UI over the 622's but would choose the 622's over the HR10-250's because of the speed.

In terms of content, D* is not even close. I've been waiting for more HD channels for over a year. I almost ditched D* last year when E* got the VOOM channels. Even if D* has more capacity, what are they going to provide other than LIL? I also prefer Sirius radio to XM since I already subscribe to XM. 

As for hardware, the 622's OTA tuner is a lot more sensitive and doesn't require aiming. It does run noticeably hotter than the HR10 but it's on a maintenance contract so I don't care that much. The E* installers were better than D*.

One feature I don't hear much about is PocketDISH. It's an Archos PMP (Portable Media Player) that can directly download saved programs from the 622 (SD only). One hour programs take about 5 minutes to download via the USB port. I just got the AV402E for $150 - a $50 rebate = $100 for a 2" 20 GB player. This alone is almost worth switching from D* to E*. Note: I only received it yesterday but I think the rebate ends today.

Now I'm wondering what to do with the HR10--with its five year extended warranty from Circuit City. :-O


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## jimborst (Aug 30, 2001)

Had the Vip-622 for about a week now, most of the season passes I have switched over but the ones that aren't on now have to show up in the program guide first. Wishlists are not as easy with the 622, I had a "Great Hotels", "Las Vegas" wishlist on the TiVo and I don't think you can do that with the 622. The only way is to do a search for Las Vegas then go though the results, of course you'll have to do it every 9 days.

Having only had a standalone TiVo the 622's dual tuner and output to two TVs is nice.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

sealslayer said:


> I actually signed up for dish service, but ended up up staying with DirecTv for a couple of reasons.
> 2. The VIP-622 supports HD, but the second tuner down converts to 480i. I could live with this if I had two units. Unfortuneatly, at the time, I could get any firm dates from retailers for the second VIP-622. They said 3-4 weeks and I didn't want to wait.
> .
> .
> ...


The tuner response isn't quite correct. All three tuners are HD. What downconverts is the second TV output. The 622 lets you connect two TVs at once, one HD and one SD.

As for lipsync, I haven't had it long enough to know for sure. I haven't noticed any problems yet. One of the later software updates was rumored to have addressed this. I know that on some of the HD channels on my HR10, the sync was so bad as to be unwatchable. I'm not convinced the sync issues are strictly related to the DVR, either one.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

jimborst said:


> Had the Vip-622 for about a week now, most of the season passes I have switched over but the ones that aren't on now have to show up in the program guide first. Wishlists are not as easy with the 622, I had a "Great Hotels", "Las Vegas" wishlist on the TiVo and I don't think you can do that with the 622. The only way is to do a search for Las Vegas then go though the results, of course you'll have to do it every 9 days.
> 
> Having only had a standalone TiVo the 622's dual tuner and output to two TVs is nice.


The 622 has the 'DishPass' feature, which seems to be a wishlist variant. You can set a search pattern, and it will then record any program on any channel that matches. It will search title, description, or both with either exact or partial match.

But, one thing that you don't seem to be able to do is to say 'new episodes only', which severely limits the usefulness. Of course, I might just not know how to do it yet. The timers are definitely more complicated than the Tivo, but seem to give a lttle more flexibility. Sometimes. Maybe.

As I've said before, one thing for sure, it isn't the same as a Tivo, for better or worse.


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## jimborst (Aug 30, 2001)

wje said:


> It will search title, description, or both with either exact or partial match.


I don't think you can search both, I have tried for example if I put "Great Hotels" in the Title then check the info, it just has the Great Hotels there, unless I'm missing something.


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## sealslayer (Jan 31, 2003)

wje said:


> The tuner response isn't quite correct. All three tuners are HD. What downconverts is the second TV output. The 622 lets you connect two TVs at once, one HD and one SD.
> 
> As for lipsync, I haven't had it long enough to know for sure. I haven't noticed any problems yet. One of the later software updates was rumored to have addressed this. I know that on some of the HD channels on my HR10, the sync was so bad as to be unwatchable. I'm not convinced the sync issues are strictly related to the DVR, either one.


So if I understand you correctly, are you saying the VIP-622 can record full HD on both tuners at the same time? It's only the second tv output that will display 480i only. That is not what I was led to believe reading a couple of other forums and by asking questions of the CSR and 3rd party retailers. If I had known the VIP was capbable of this, then it I would have gone with dish a couple of months back.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

sealslayer said:


> So if I understand you correctly, are you saying the VIP-622 can record full HD on both tuners at the same time? It's only the second tv output that will display 480i only. That is not what I was led to believe reading a couple of other forums and by asking questions of the CSR and 3rd party retailers. If I had known the VIP was capbable of this, then it I would have gone with dish a couple of months back.


Yes, that's the case. One possible cause of confusion.... there are some restrictions when the 622 is in 'dual' mode, which is where the HD and SD sets can independently operate on different channels. It can also run in single-shared mode, where the HD output is mirrored to the SD output. I don't use a 2nd TV on it, so I haven't paid any attention to the various modes.

Supposedly, it will do *3* recordings at once, 2 sat and one OTA. Haven't tried it, though.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

jimborst said:


> I don't think you can search both, I have tried for example if I put "Great Hotels" in the Title then check the info, it just has the Great Hotels there, unless I'm missing something.


It's probably me missing something. I'm hoping to really play with the 622 this weekend. So far, my least favorite thing is the ability to specify 'new only' with a DishPass. I hope I'm missing something there, too!


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## BrianCT (Nov 1, 2003)

I am with the other poster, if Dish got YES I would be very tempted to switch. Watching the Steelers on Season Ticket is a big plus too.....


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Huh... well it's nice to see that after the 921, 942, 622 and now this vip.. they finaly have a viable HD-DVR. Of course your comparing their FOURTH HD DVR to DirecTV's first, which came out BEFORE Dish's 921... Pretty good if you ask me (that dish had to build 4 different models to get it to comare to the HR10)

Regardless, it's still missing one OTA tuner, folders, and proper season passes... I'm sure that's all coming 3 or 4 models from now...


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

BrianCT said:


> I am with the other poster, if Dish got YES I would be very tempted to switch. Watching the Steelers on Season Ticket is a big plus too.....


Didn't bother me, I'm a RedSox fan.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> Huh... well it's nice to see that after the 921, 942, 622 and now this vip.. they finaly have a viable HD-DVR. Of course your comparing their FOURTH HD DVR to DirecTV's first, which came out BEFORE Dish's 921... Pretty good if you ask me (that dish had to build 4 different models to get it to comare to the HR10)
> 
> Regardless, it's still missing one OTA tuner, folders, and proper season passes... I'm sure that's all coming 3 or 4 models from now...


Actually the 2nd tuner isn't missing. It doesn't have a 2nd OTA tuner. If it was missing, I'd look for it. 

I would also disagree that this is dish's 4th gen vs D* 1st. Isn't the 622 the Vip622? I don't see a non-"Vip" "622". Also the Vip622 supports mpeg 4. So compare it to D*'s first gen mpeg 4 HD-DVR. Oops, there isn't one plus it ain't a Tivo. My bad. So that leaves the HR10 vs the 921 and 942 so 1 extra generation? And why are you talking folders? The HR10 doesn't have folders. If you want to talk SD DTivo most would say there are 2.5 generations. The R10 being the half. Plus Tivo's history with SA units. I'm guessing you didn't have a series 1 SA Tivo running I think 1.x SW.

The next time it takes an hour to re-prioritize your season passes, ask yourself if it would be nice to have a 2nd gen with a little more horsepower.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

wje said:


> Yes, that's the case. One possible cause of confusion.... there are some restrictions when the 622 is in 'dual' mode, which is where the HD and SD sets can independently operate on different channels. It can also run in single-shared mode, where the HD output is mirrored to the SD output. I don't use a 2nd TV on it, so I haven't paid any attention to the various modes.
> 
> Supposedly, it will do *3* recordings at once, 2 sat and one OTA. Haven't tried it, though.


WJE is correct. All 3 tuners support HD and can record HD at the same time.


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## TechnoRedneck (Sep 25, 2003)

That's easy, sell it to me


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

frankygamer said:


> Actually the 2nd tuner isn't missing. It doesn't have a 2nd OTA tuner. If it was missing, I'd look for it.
> 
> I would also disagree that this is dish's 4th gen vs D* 1st. Isn't the 622 the Vip622? I don't see a non-"Vip" "622". Also the Vip622 supports mpeg 4. So compare it to D*'s first gen mpeg 4 HD-DVR. Oops, there isn't one plus it ain't a Tivo. My bad. So that leaves the HR10 vs the 921 and 942 so 1 extra generation? And why are you talking folders? The HR10 doesn't have folders. If you want to talk SD DTivo most would say there are 2.5 generations. The R10 being the half. Plus Tivo's history with SA units. I'm guessing you didn't have a series 1 SA Tivo running I think 1.x SW.
> 
> The next time it takes an hour to re-prioritize your season passes, ask yourself if it would be nice to have a 2nd gen with a little more horsepower.


Cool, so you think the TiVo is CRAP. So tell me, why are you in the TIVO forum??? Just to flame TiVo users?


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> Cool, so you think the TiVo is CRAP. So tell me, why are you in the TIVO forum??? Just to flame TiVo users?


D* is crap not tivo. When did I say Tivo is crap? I think they are both good DVR's. I'm just here to keep people like you from misleading people on a DVR you've never used for any significant amount of time. Do you ever read entire threads?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=303311&highlight=dish


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

wje said:


> Gee, Ty, this seems to be one of your hot buttons! ...


 Well, not really. At least not in my mind. If that is your assessment, then you really just don't get it. I'm really pretty mellow now that I'm back in the arms of Tivo.

What you apparently mistake for vitriol is actually just fair warning. I'm just not going to sugar-coat it for you. Sure, my evidence is just as anecdotal as is your evidence that the HR10 has "serious issues", so if you want folks to tell you what you want to hear, then click ahead to the next post right now.

The price E* (or any company) must pay for poor performance is that people who paid good money to experience that might just warn their friends about it, which is all I have ever done here. I certainly don't pretend to have all of the answers, but, I am one of a small group that has experienced both DBS vendors (8 years with E* and 2 with D* with a 1-year overlap) and both varieties of PVRs, and so maybe I have a unique point of view that might be of value to some who are trying to figure all of this out. I actually know how green the grass is on both sides of the fence. Take what you want from that. Or don't.



wje said:


> ...I somewhat agree, but not completely. I'd rather have someone at least try to fix things rather than ignore the problem. How long did we have to wait for the HR10 updates to fix a number of serious issues? A long time, and a lot of crap from D* CS reps saying 'gee, we never heard of that problem'...


Since you quoted me out of context, I'd like to point out that I also said that Tivo sees infrequent updates because it doesn't need updates, and already works as advertised. Maybe the reason they haven't heard of that "problem" is that there is no problem. The HR10 seems to work just fine for most folks. Those with poor reception can't really lay that on Tivo, which would be like shooting your Mercedes because it ran out of gas.

There are issues with Tivo, and I would be one of the first to point them out. It IS slow in certain areas, but never in starting a recording when you ask (even with a delay, it is ALREADY recording before you tell it to) or in playback or shuttle functions, and those are the important ones. The guide is slow, a SP reorder takes up to 7 minutes (hardly an hour, as reported) if you have 80 SPs and 60 WLs, and it is just generally not as snappy as the 6.2 Tivos. It doesn't have some of the ancillary features like networking. It's not perfect. It's just far closer to perfect than anything else pretending to be in its league. And I've tried them all, except for UTV and DISHPlayer (which don't do HD and don't matter).

EchoStar is a fine company. It provides a fine DBS service. Charlie has done a lot to keep prices down and competition up. E*'s PVRs have always been questionable and somewhat unreliable, but they do have a lot of benefits, such as 2-hour buffers, responsive interfaces, a slightly more-refined OTA tuner, PIP, and....well I can't seem to come up with any more right now (wonder why?). Really "important" stuff for folks who want bells and whistles and actually don't care if they are getting a reliable PVR with a terrific interface that always does what is asked of it. 

And E* has 29 HD channels to D*'s what, 9? 11? But what a lot of folks who buy DISH Notwork for the channel count find out is that VOOM died for a good reason...because there was nothing worth watching on those channels then, and still isn't, today.

So just what are these "serious issues" and "problems" that you claim the HR10 is riddled with, anyway? If you take the D* and E* forums as a guide, I would say that comparitively, the HR10 is virtually problem-free.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

This is one of tys hot buttons  Adams too


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

Rave and StarzHD alone have been worth the move for me. Like I always say if your happy with what you have, Great! Why we have to hear about your "divorce" with E* in the couple of dish threads is getting old. 

What if Dish buys Tivo tommorow? This forum turns upside down. It's gonna turn when the HR20 come out at the latest.


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> Cool, so you think the TiVo is CRAP. So tell me, why are you in the TIVO forum??? Just to flame TiVo users?


Please let's not make this thread a dish v D* bash-a-thon.

This thread is offering actual opinions and comments of the VIP622 from many ex and current HR10 users. Many past and current HR10 owners find this information very useful. You don't and that's OK too.

If you are not at all interested in this information then why do you torture yourself by reading posts in THIS thread?

Finally, I wish to thank all those that took the time to offer their observations and opinions.

I hope to see more user updates and comments in the future.


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> If you take the D* and E* forums as a guide, I would say that comparitively, the HR10 is virtually problem-free.


It is obvious then that you are VERY easy to please. 

BTW, I do have a couple of questions for you.

Which Voom channels did you watch and why do you believe they were not worth watching? Also, which Dish dvrs did you use and why do you feel they were somewhat unreliable? Can you comment on your experience with the VIP622? Do you have anything to offer people visiting this thread for information about the VIP622 other than conjecture?


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

It's not conjecture, its informed opinion. I only offer it to help. I'm not trying to drive people into not doing what they've already made their minds up to do, just trying to alert those who are bright enough to keep their minds open to all of the possibilities. I could give a rat's hat what you do, or what you think. You don't have to pay any attention at all to any of that if you don't want to, just like you are not ever required to wake up and smell the propane, which I'm betting you probably won't.

I'm out. Good luck.

Now crawl back under your bridge, where there's probably an ATM where you can cash those paychecks signed by Charlie Ergen.

I find it supremely ironic that folks who give their honest opinion and who support most of the choices made on this forum should be questioned why they are posting their opinions by folks who do not agree with most of the choices on this forum and who are really interested in services and equipment supplied by companies that have absolutely nothing to do with this forum. If anyone should be questioned in that way, it's probably not me. So go away, go there, post there, stop posting here.

Vaya con Dios, and don't let the doorknob...


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> It's not conjecture, its informed opinion. I only offer it to help. I'm not trying to drive people into not doing what they've already made their minds up to do, just trying to alert those who are bright enough to keep their minds open to all of the possibilities. I could give a rat's hat what you do, or what you think. You don't have to pay any attention at all to any of that if you don't want to, just like you are not ever required to wake up and smell the propane, which I'm betting you probably won't.
> 
> I'm out. Good luck.
> 
> ...


I was only curious as to how you reached so many of your conclusions in your previous post. Many of your "opinions" seemed suspect and I was only trying to determine whether your comments were based on actual user experience or simply were conjecture.

Given your grossly unconventional response I believe you indirectly answered my questions, so I thank you. 

Sorry to have upset you so much but I must insist that you try and post comments about services and products you have actually USED and not "heard about." I believe that would be more helpful.


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

Thanks for the updates guys. I am still on the edge with regards to which direction to go. At the moment I have just been too busy to worry about it but I want to get a HD-DVR into my theater at some point and one in the family room. I don't think spending more money on the HD-Tivo is a wise choice given whats out there and whats coming. I was ready to order the 622 and Dishes Hd-Package a few weeks ago until I found out their unit does not have folders yet. If I could get the speed and the folders I am there. Half the battle is won.


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

dishrich said:


> Uh, NOT quite...
> 
> On D*, if you do not have a phone line, you do NOT get hit with an extra $5 for the 2nd tuner - on E*, you DO. So yea, you can get away w/out it, but you WILL pay for it!


That's ONE of Dish's hidden fees anyway! When I had them, I had to pay that extra $5 a month fee because I have Vonage. I also payed an extra $10 a month for my second dvr that was in the basement. Directv only charges $6 for every dvr in the house, they don't charge an extra $6 for each additional dvr plus the extra $5 additional receiver fee like Dish does. For example with Directv you pay $11 a month to have two seperate dvr's. The same thing with Dish costs you $16 a month or $26 a month if you don't have both dvr's plugged into a phone line. At least this is the way it was when I had Dish, hopefully they've removed some of those fees by now. The other thing that really irked me with Dish was the $5 downgrade programming fee.

Still, if Dish had better dvr's I probably still might be their customer. Their HD programming blows Directv out of the water and I still like Dish's remotes better than Directv's.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

kbohip said:


> That's ONE of Dish's hidden fees anyway! When I had them, I had to pay that extra $5 a month fee because I have Vonage. I also payed an extra $10 a month for my second dvr that was in the basement. Directv only charges $6 for every dvr in the house, they don't charge an extra $6 for each additional dvr plus the extra $5 additional receiver fee like Dish does. For example with Directv you pay $11 a month to have two seperate dvr's. The same thing with Dish costs you $16 a month or $26 a month if you don't have both dvr's plugged into a phone line. At least this is the way it was when I had Dish, hopefully they've removed some of those fees by now. The other thing that really irked me with Dish was the $5 downgrade programming fee.
> 
> Still, if Dish had better dvr's I probably still might be their customer. Their HD programming blows Directv out of the water and I still like Dish's remotes better than Directv's.


Good points and do agree. I have Vonage and two times in 2 months I've powered up my boxes to get a phone line warning. What I don't get is the receiver passes all the phone diagnostics and I can dial in for "Dish Interactive". I'll be keeping my eye on my bill. I will say I knew this going into the change. They still have the $5 downgrade fee. Not sure about the DVR fees. There are many fees but many get waived based on your package/setup. I'll be interested when I get my next bill. My first one is a mess since I was slowly increasing my programming package. Well back under my bridge


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

TyroneShoes said:


> It's not conjecture, its informed opinion. I only offer it to help. I'm not trying to drive people into not doing what they've already made their minds up to do, just trying to alert those who are bright enough to keep their minds open to all of the possibilities. I could give a rat's hat what you do, or what you think. You don't have to pay any attention at all to any of that if you don't want to, just like you are not ever required to wake up and smell the propane, which I'm betting you probably won't.
> 
> I'm out. Good luck.
> 
> ...


Hey, leave Uncle Charlie out of this! No reason to get personal. 

Actually as a SA Tivo owner in addition to E*, Tivo makes more $$$ off of me now then if I stayed with D*. I'll support Tivo until the cows come home.

I'm curious what your plan is when you start start lossing access to new programming because they are MPEG-4. Will you stick with your HDTivo or go HR20?


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

MarcusInMD said:


> Thanks for the updates guys. I am still on the edge with regards to which direction to go. At the moment I have just been too busy to worry about it but I want to get a HD-DVR into my theater at some point and one in the family room. I don't think spending more money on the HD-Tivo is a wise choice given whats out there and whats coming. I was ready to order the 622 and Dishes Hd-Package a few weeks ago until I found out their unit does not have folders yet. If I could get the speed and the folders I am there. Half the battle is won.


I'm guessing cable isn't an option for you? The series 3 tivo should be awesome with a GOOD cable system.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I can't wait for the series 3 to hit the shelves. It will be bye-bye DirecTV the same day.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> So just what are these "serious issues" and "problems" that you claim the HR10 is riddled with, anyway? If you take the D* and E* forums as a guide, I would say that comparitively, the HR10 is virtually problem-free.


I wouldn't. Having paid $1K for it, going thru three, one with the harware HDMI problem, the replacement with a dead sat2 tuner right out of the box, the next again with the HDMI hardware problem right out of the box, I'd say the hardware has some serious issues. I ended up fixing it myself by swapping parts.

If I try to reprioritize my my scheduled recordings, it takes what seems like forever. It may not be an hour, but it's sure longer than 7 minutes. In the meantime, I can't watch anything.

If I want to start recording the channel I'm on because I want to see it later, but switch to another channel because I'm missing something I want to see, I sit with a 'Please Wait' for up to a minute.

This is hardly anecdotal, or some basless 'claim'. If you think this is 'virtually problem-free', enjoy it. I didn't.

So far, the 622 has performed flawlessly, something I certainly couldn't say about the HR10, since its HDMI port failed after 1 day. It has a lot of features the HR10 doesn't have, and there has been no time so far where I have to sit and twiddle my thumbs waiting.

I've had a Tivo of one kind or another since they were first available for D*. I thought they were great. I think I have enough experience with the HR10 to speak with reasonable certaintude about its issues, since I've had it since shortly after it came out.

So, again, if the HR10 gives you joy, by all means keep enjoying it. However, for rational people that have an open mind about alternatives, so far the 622 has been excellent, and I'm liking it more every time I use it.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

My friend just got his installed a couple days ago and I spent part of Thursday playing with it. I was actually impressed that it didn't suck. Some of the interface quirks were more difficult to get used to (and the layout of the remote is horrible), but as a DVR it was quite adequate.

One thing we discovered that was rather annoying was that Dish provides NO guide data for your OTA channels, so whatever you are going to get OTA, you have to record through manual recording. We even called them to confirm that.

That's the big deal to me, though I could just use it for all the HD Dish has and do my OTA on my HTPC.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

Ereth said:


> My friend just got his installed a couple days ago and I spent part of Thursday playing with it. I was actually impressed that it didn't suck. Some of the interface quirks were more difficult to get used to (and the layout of the remote is horrible), but as a DVR it was quite adequate.
> 
> One thing we discovered that was rather annoying was that Dish provides NO guide data for your OTA channels, so whatever you are going to get OTA, you have to record through manual recording. We even called them to confirm that.
> 
> That's the big deal to me, though I could just use it for all the HD Dish has and do my OTA on my HTPC.


I get Guide Data for my local OTA main sub-channel. I don't for sub channels. Also they missed PBS but I do get guide data for OTA CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX. Not PBS or Pax and not sure about WB. OTA signal is too weak. I think its hit and miss. Agree, this is worse the D* provided. I would try calling again. I should too about PBS.

The interface is pretty bad/different at first but you do get used to it.


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## TivoPip (Feb 26, 2003)

I just got a Dish 622 to replace my old 6000 HD receiver. I mainly got it so I'd be ready for when they switch to MPEG4 and also so I could record HD shows when I want.

Its nice enough, the picture quality is excellent and recorded shows are identical to watching it live...no apparent degredation of the picture or sound (5.1). You can record two HD shows and watch a third pre-recorded...must be a fast drive in there.

However, it aint no TiVo. The experience just isn't the same. I hooked my TiVo to it and the TiVo is recording all my SD programs as before.

Now, my ideal situation is that I could take advantage of the dual tuner/ dual output of the receiver and set the second (remote) output to be just for the TiVo. Then when the TiVo is recording I could be watching a HD channel or recording HD programming. Unfortunately, I can't as the second remote is UHF only and there is no IR/UHF interface I can find. So, the TiVo cant change channels. Pity....would have been perfect


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

frankygamer said:


> Actually the 2nd tuner isn't missing. It doesn't have a 2nd OTA tuner. If it was missing, I'd look for it.
> 
> I would also disagree that this is dish's 4th gen vs D* 1st. Isn't the 622 the Vip622? I don't see a non-"Vip" "622". Also the Vip622 supports mpeg 4. So compare it to D*'s first gen mpeg 4 HD-DVR. Oops, there isn't one plus it ain't a Tivo. My bad. So that leaves the HR10 vs the 921 and 942 so 1 extra generation? And why are you talking folders? The HR10 doesn't have folders. If you want to talk SD DTivo most would say there are 2.5 generations. The R10 being the half. Plus Tivo's history with SA units. I'm guessing you didn't have a series 1 SA Tivo running I think 1.x SW.
> 
> The next time it takes an hour to re-prioritize your season passes, ask yourself if it would be nice to have a 2nd gen with a little more horsepower.


Tell that to the people that spent $999 for a 921 and can't even sub to the HD Package any more!! The 921 (which came out what, 2 years ago, roughly the same time as the HR10) can't receive ANY HD programming via satellite unless you maintained your HD Package all this time to get grandfathered in.

What does this have to do with the vip622? People are upset that the HR10 cannot receive the new MPEG4 HD-LIL, well at least you can still get HD programming with it!! Dish totally screwed everyone on the older HD products by not allowing them to get ANY HD Programming...

Anyway, the biggest selling point (to me) on the HR10 and all TiVo products is the fact the the hard drive is easily upgradable, up to 1.5 terabytes.


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

kbohip said:


> At least this is the way it was when I had Dish, hopefully they've removed some of those fees by now.


Nope, on the contrary, they still have these, PLUS more - want those HD off-airs (EITHER thru the dish if your DMA is up, or via antenna) or HD HBO & Showtime w/out buying the overpriced HD metal packs? Then get ready to pay ANOTHER BS $6 "HD enabling fee" to do it!  



> Still, if Dish had better dvr's I probably still might be their customer. Their HD programming blows Directv out of the water and I still like Dish's remotes better than Directv's.


Well, I guess if you think VOOM really IS all that & a bag of chips, then it must be true - frankly, I just don't see the big whoop of it, but whatever...


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> Tell that to the people that spent $999 for a 921 and can't even sub to the HD Package any more!! The 921 (which came out what, 2 years ago, roughly the same time as the HR10) can't receive ANY HD programming via satellite unless you maintained your HD Package all this time to get grandfathered in.
> 
> What does this have to do with the vip622? People are upset that the HR10 cannot receive the new MPEG4 HD-LIL, well at least you can still get HD programming with it!! Dish totally screwed everyone on the older HD products by not allowing them to get ANY HD Programming...
> 
> Anyway, the biggest selling point (to me) on the HR10 and all TiVo products is the fact the the hard drive is easily upgradable, up to 1.5 terabytes.


Offering an upgrade from the 921/942 to the Vip622 (as D* will do for the HR10 to HR20 minus tivo) for $300 and returning $200 in credits for a total upgrade fee of $99, I wouldn't call that a total screwing. Just a preview of what choice D* customers will have to make. If you had an older receiver and not the HD Pack, why would you have that receiver? I honestly don't know. Maybe OTA? Are you saying they cut the HD OTA tuner also? I don't know.

I'm the kind of person who like the latest and greatest so I just would have upgraded to the Vip622 for $99. I wouldn't buy a HD-DVR without extra satellite or cable HD. $1000 means nothing to me. I paid $900 each for both of my HDTivo's. Bleeding edge costs $$$$$

Agree, I miss the upgradeability. I said that in the other thread you got on my case on. At Dish summit it was said USB HDD support (any USB kit, not DISH custom) will be available/enabled in the fall. I guess that will be the promise from E* I'm interested to see if they keep. D* promised me 6.x in March of 2005. Can't be any worse (opening for Tyrone right here  ).

So were you a dish customer? If so how long? I'm honestly curious why this seems to be such a hot spot for you. If you have several bad years of experience, thats cool, I'd change too. I see why Tyrone changed, he explained. Just curious about yourself


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## PAP (Oct 6, 1999)

I get so pissed at those who come into a very useful thread like this and start dumping on the people actually posting very useful information just because it isn't 100% favorable to tivo.

I for one GREATLY APPRECIATE the time taken by those who've been using competing products to give an honest opinion of strengths and weaknesses compared with Tivo offerings. This is not a Tivo advertising forum, it's a tivo user community.

I've been using Tivo for 6 years now and love my tivo as much as anyone else, but for those of us on DTV we're getting screwed and we're having to look elsewhere so thanks so much for those helping to educate us with real world experience and to the thread crappers who feel the need to jump in and criticize why someone is taking the time to post here - why not sit on your hands a bit next time unless you're willing to contribute something useful yourself.

'nuff said.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

PAP said:


> I get so pissed at those who come into a very useful thread like this and start dumping on the people actually posting very useful information just because it isn't 100% favorable to tivo.
> 
> I for one GREATLY APPRECIATE the time taken by those who've been using competing products to give an honest opinion of strengths and weaknesses compared with Tivo offerings. This is not a Tivo advertising forum, it's a tivo user community.


Thank you!

I started this thread to try to give an objective comparison between the HR10 and the 622. I hope to continue to do that. It gets hard, though, when there IS a better feature in the 622, I point that out, and the few flaming idoits, I mean, Tivo fanatics, rant about it.

As I've said a few time, the 622 isn't a Tivo. Sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad. When you come right down to it, if the Tivo were perfect, I woudn't have switched, would I?


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

Ereth said:


> One thing we discovered that was rather annoying was that Dish provides NO guide data for your OTA channels, so whatever you are going to get OTA, you have to record through manual recording. We even called them to confirm that.


I was wondering about that. That's a negative. Sucks, actually.
There have been a few things I've found that are annoying. On the balance, though, I'm favorably impressed. Currently, my big favorites are the PIP capabilities, and the 4 user-defined favorites lists.

On the minus side, I just figured out that normally, the 622 only buffers the current channel, unlike the HR10, which has one buffer per tuner. However, someone told me that if you're using PIP, then both PIP channels are buffered. Still, this is a negative in my book. On the other hand, the buffer is 2 hours on the 622.

For us geeks, the 622 is also a Linux-based implementation! Wonder why it's so much faster than the HR10? I suppose I'm going to have to pop the lid and see what's inside.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

I get a buffer on both tuners and guide data. Are you in single or dual mode. I'm in single. No PIP enabled.

Have you found a way to jump to the tick marks?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

frankygamer said:


> Agree, I miss the upgradeability. I said that in the other thread you got on my case on. At Dish summit it was said USB HDD support (any USB kit, not DISH custom) will be available/enabled in the fall. I guess that will be the promise from E* I'm interested to see if they keep. D* promised me 6.x in March of 2005. Can't be any worse (opening for Tyrone right here  ).
> 
> So were you a dish customer? If so how long? I'm honestly curious why this seems to be such a hot spot for you. If you have several bad years of experience, thats cool, I'd change too. I see why Tyrone changed, he explained. Just curious about yourself


Agreed, and D* will no longer have the upgradability advantage either and will lose that competitive edge. The series 3 however likely WILL be upgradable...

I had Dish for about 5 years... signed up when I got my first house, later bought a PVR 501 and 508. Then switched to D* after they crashed ALL the time and kept losing recordings like crazy.

I was frustrated that I put up with those crappy DVR's so long when I could've had a TiVo...

But now... TiVo Goes away. Really, their SD units are near perfect and I will likely run those and my HR10 into the ground since most of my HD is ota anyway.. (And dish only has about 3 HD channels I don't get that would have value.. I don't even get the HD Pack with D*...)

After that? I will lean heavily towards the Series3 or ComcastTiVo assuming they are what they should be.... It is likely both of those units will blow away the vip622.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

wje said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I started this thread to try to give an objective comparison between the HR10 and the 622. I hope to continue to do that. It gets hard, though, when there IS a better feature in the 622, I point that out, and the few flaming idoits, I mean, Tivo fanatics, rant about it.


You come to a TiVo fan site to get an objective comparison?? Do you go to Chevy forums and start threads about how fords are better?

Seems like if you want an objective comparison you'd go to an objective site. (There are tons of DBS forum sites out there that would accomplish exactly that...)

And calling TiVo fans flaming idiots? Sounds like your looking only for "objective" comparisons that involve people that are not TiVo fans by that statement...


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> You come to a TiVo fan site to get an objective comparison?? Do you go to Chevy forums and start threads about how fords are better?


Now I'm contributing to the flaming idiot content.

Did you bother to read anything I actually wrote? I've probably been a Tivo user longer than you have. I didn't come here looking for an objective comparison, I'm trying to offer one. Sorry guys, as much as I've enjoyed my Tivos over the years, the HR10 isn't a shining example.

So, maybe we should have a poll? Do you want to hear about my impressions of the 622, or do you want to sit around with your head in... er, the sand?

If the latter, there's certainly no reason I should be wasting my time typing here when I could be watching 30 channels of HD plus 14 OTA digital channels on my 622.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

frankygamer said:


> I get a buffer on both tuners and guide data. Are you in single or dual mode. I'm in single. No PIP enabled.


Ok, that's my problem. Unfortunately, the 622 gives us choices. Makes sense that in dual mode, there aren't two buffers on TV1. Now I'm in single and life is good.

As for the skip, I haven't found a way yet. The skip seems to be 30 seconds, period. But, since that's what I had hacked by HR10 to do anyway, I can't really complain.


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## borgslayer (Mar 28, 2004)

frankygamer said:


> I get a buffer on both tuners and guide data. Are you in single or dual mode. I'm in single. No PIP enabled.
> 
> Have you found a way to jump to the tick marks?


So does the guide show data for all the OTA channels? This is real imp to me. I am considering making the jump to the VIP622 also


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

borgslayer said:


> So does the guide show data for all the OTA channels? This is real imp to me. I am considering making the jump to the VIP622 also


I'm missing PBS and PAX  Also no sub channel data except "-1".

I am getting guide data on ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX. I wonder if you have to order SD locals? WJE, do you have satellite locals? I do. I'm not in a large DMA either ~100


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

No, it doesn't. Bummer.

Seems that if the channel is one that is delivered via satellite, then the associated OTA channels will show guide data. If the channel isn't delivered by satellite at all, then there's no guide data.

Currently, this is my biggest annoyance with the 622. Actually, strictly speaking, this isn't a 622 issue, but rather E* not sending the guide data.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

wje said:


> No, it doesn't. Bummer.
> 
> Seems that if the channel is one that is delivered via satellite, then the associated OTA channels will show guide data. If the channel isn't delivered by satellite at all, then there's no guide data.
> 
> Currently, this is my biggest annoyance with the 622. Actually, strictly speaking, this isn't a 622 issue, but rather E* not sending the guide data.


I was thinking this too but I get PBS over satellite and no Guide data for it.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

frankygamer said:


> I am getting guide data on ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX. I wonder if you have to order SD locals? WJE, do you have satellite locals? I do.


Yes, I do. As I just posted, I seem to get some OTA guide data, but not all.

Different topic.. we seem to be drifting more towards a pure 622 disucssion. This IS a Tivo group. I don't mind, but if others object, maybe we should move the pure 622 stuff over to dbstalk?


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## PAP (Oct 6, 1999)

Adam - many of us -do- come here for objective information. I am a tivo user and have converted others over the years I've owned 3 of them. In fact I"m still team captain of Team Tivo UD team  but it's -not- a religion to me.

Only the foolish are unwilling to look at other offerings and consider both the plusses and minuses of what's available. If you can't stand anyone ever saying anything negative about the Tivo then you're going to be a very unhappy frustrated user.

Using your example on any forum there will be the die-hards who would claim that any Chevy is better than any other car/truck in the world. However there are also users who while they like Chevy are willing to consider that perhaps a Ford might be a better product now and then. We call the latter intelligent consumers. 

The funny thing is that the zealots and the intelligent consumers never seem to get along. The former think the latter have no business posting on "their" forums and the latter think the former are narrow-minded, limited-thinking fools destined to take whatever is dished out to them (no pun intended).

The best way to deal with this is for the zealots and the intelligent consumers to coexist and understand each others philosophy without jumping into their threads and telling them on every possible occassion that they should go elsewhere.

In other words, how about letting those of us who WANT to engage in this discussion here do so without attacking? If you want to form a dish DVR sucks thread the by all means go right ahead.

I'm not personally planning on going back to dish - I was a subscriber for about 2 years before I got my DirecTivos. In fact I'm anxiously awaiting S3 and planning on cable. But now there's talk that changes in the way Cable stations are sending out the signal may cripple S3's ability to record HD so I may be stuck. See, there are reason for some folks to want to learn about other options.

Again, thanks to those with thick enough skins to post lots of great objective data on our options.


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

Bass Cadet said:


> One feature I don't hear much about is PocketDISH. It's an Archos PMP (Portable Media Player) that can directly download saved programs from the 622 (SD only). One hour programs take about 5 minutes to download via the USB port. I just got the AV402E for $150 - a $50 rebate = $100 for a 2" 20 GB player. This alone is almost worth switching from D* to E*. Note: I only received it yesterday but I think the rebate ends today.
> 
> O


Sounds pretty cool - beats recording in real-time!

Questions:

Can the AV402E plug into regular TV?

How many hours of sd programming does it hold?

Does it have menus \ info of each show?

Can you FF or 30 sec skip during playback on the AV402?

Thanks.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> ...
> I had Dish for about 5 years... signed up when I got my first house, later bought a PVR 501 and 508. Then switched to D* after they crashed ALL the time and kept losing recordings like crazy.
> ....
> After that? I will lean heavily towards the Series3 or ComcastTiVo assuming they are what they should be.... It is likely both of those units will blow away the vip622.


Well, you probably would be blown away going from a 508 to a Vip622. I do understand your scepticism. I read nothing good about Dish DVRs until recently on the 942. I read a post by someone who wasn't sure if they wanted to trade in their 942 for a Vip622 after getting (at least most of) the bugs out of it. This gave me hope that Dish turned the corner on DVRs. I took a chance and they they have. I will be completely honest with you and say I am surprised how good of a DVR the Vip622 is. And no I don't work for Charlie.

I would have waited for the series 3 but need satellite since I'm in an overlapping RSN region and need the "Sports Pack" that cable doesn't have. D* has obviously abandoned the HR10 so for me it was time to leave, just like you, when the Series 3 comes out or D* limits programming on the HR10.

I assume the series 3 will have the S2 SA type SW with the HR10 like HW(obviously with cable interface instead). I don't see this blowing away the Vip622 other then the second OTA tuner. That will be the big one. You can only make a DVR so good. Most new features nowadays on the SA Tivo are internet app type additions and little to do with the DVR portion. They already got the DVR stuff down. Will I get one? Hell yeah!


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

wje said:


> Yes, I do. As I just posted, I seem to get some OTA guide data, but not all.
> 
> Different topic.. we seem to be drifting more towards a pure 622 disucssion. This IS a Tivo group. I don't mind, but if others object, maybe we should move the pure 622 stuff over to dbstalk?


I wouldn't mind a D* to Dish thread over there since it seems many of us are in the same boat. I'm surprised either Vip threads have lasted this long


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

borgslayer said:


> So does the guide show data for all the OTA channels? This is real imp to me. I am considering making the jump to the VIP622 also


Looks like you HAVE to get locals to get OTA guide data. They support very few sub stations (some larger markets), and no PBS period.

linky


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

frankygamer said:


> Well, you probably would be blown away going from a 508 to a Vip622. I do understand your scepticism. I read nothing good about Dish DVRs until recently on the 942. I read a post by someone who wasn't sure if they wanted to trade in their 942 for a Vip622 after getting (at least most of) the bugs out of it. This gave me hope that Dish turned the corner on DVRs. I took a chance and they they have. I will be completely honest with you and say I am surprised how good of a DVR the Vip622 is. And no I don't work for Charlie.
> 
> I would have waited for the series 3 but need satellite since I'm in an overlapping RSN region and need the "Sports Pack" that cable doesn't have. D* has obviously abandoned the HR10 so for me it was time to leave, just like you, when the Series 3 comes out or D* limits programming on the HR10.
> 
> I assume the series 3 will have the S2 SA type SW with the HR10 like HW(obviously with cable interface instead). I don't see this blowing away the Vip622 other then the second OTA tuner. That will be the big one. You can only make a DVR so good. Most new features nowadays on the SA Tivo are internet app type additions and little to do with the DVR portion. They already got the DVR stuff down. Will I get one? Hell yeah!


Granted, that I'm fairly anti-dish due to my past experience with their DVR's and DirecTV's DVR experience has actually been fairly pleasant...

Second OTA tuner and upgradable hard drive are huge to me.

My HR10 does me well, and I really don't see a HUGE advantage over DirecTV programming wise. Most of Dish's HD channels are useless in my opinion. (StarzHD, National Geographic HD and NFL HD are the ones I wouldn't mind... not worth switching for..)


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## jonvn (Feb 19, 2005)

So if you have a Tivo, and you get dish, the Tivo is basically useless?


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## talbain (Jul 31, 2002)

wje said:


> One more big plus... E* actually seems to be interested in fixing bugs. Software updates are reasonably frequent. When was the last time you saw an update from D*?


how in the hell would you know this if you just got the unit a few days ago? have they updated the software over the past two days, or are you basing the above comments on nothing more than hearsay???


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

jonvn said:


> So if you have a Tivo, and you get dish, the Tivo is basically useless?


The HR10 becomes a OTA tuner only. Best bet is to sell. I would call it a DirecTV DVR with Tivo also. If it was purely a Tivo it would have more features.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

talbain said:


> how in the hell would you know this if you just got the unit a few days ago? have they updated the software over the past two days, or are you basing the above comments on nothing more than hearsay???


He probably did research. Dish has release notes and a SW version list on there website. link maybe We've already gone over if there is such a thing as too many updates vs if it ain't broke don't fix it.

PS nice use of the word hell.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

talbain said:


> how in the hell would you know this if you just got the unit a few days ago? have they updated the software over the past two days, or are you basing the above comments on nothing more than hearsay???


Well, if you'd bothered to read the rest of the thread, you'd see that there is another forum where the software updates for the 622 are discussed. It's moderated, supposedly has E* engineers monitoring it, and has a lot of info from 622 users about said updates.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> Granted, that I'm fairly anti-dish due to my past experience with their DVR's and DirecTV's DVR experience has actually been fairly pleasant...
> 
> Second OTA tuner and upgradable hard drive are huge to me.
> 
> My HR10 does me well, and I really don't see a HUGE advantage over DirecTV programming wise. Most of Dish's HD channels are useless in my opinion. (StarzHD, National Geographic HD and NFL HD are the ones I wouldn't mind... not worth switching for..)


Fair enough, I'm just doing the opposite. I think D* has screwed Tivo and treated the owners of the HR10 poorly. D* has "mislead" me on SW updates for a $900 receiver. For me D*'s HD offerings are weak. As always, to each his own.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> Most of Dish's HD channels are useless in my opinion. (StarzHD, National Geographic HD and NFL HD are the ones I wouldn't mind... not worth switching for..)


Now we get to HD's dirty little secret... once you've seen the 3 shows that were ever recorded, in HD, you've seen them all! 

There certainly is a lack of HD content out there. It's slowly getting better. Some E*'s HD content is old movies, old animation, etc. It's kind of funny watching cartoon shows from the 60's in HD.

NG HD is good. From my brief viewing so far, looks like they are shooting their new content all-HD for both their HD and SD feeds.

I would say that E* seems to do less compression than D*. E* has an advantage at the moment because the 622 is MPEG4, so they can use the bandwidth from their new satellites for HD. I haven't paid any attention to E*'s launch schedule or current satellite fleet size, so I don't know what their plans relative to D* are. Also, E* isn't putting all their efforts into sat locals, like D* is.

That was one of my annoyance points with D*; I went HD with them the end of '04 because of the promised massive new HD content, which never materialized.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

So to recap...

HR10-250
Pros-
Upgradable HD
TiVo Software (Better Season pass, wishlist)
Dual OTA tuners

Cons-
Being phased out
No HD-LIL
DirecTV poor HD offerings
Slow

VIP622-
Pros-
Better OTA tuner
Mpeg4, HD-LIL
Better HD offerings
PIP (I think?)
Multi Room Support (I think?)

Cons-
No upgradable HD
Dishpass does not do "First Run"
Buggier
Single OTA Tuner
No Folders (Will the HR20 have this?)


What else? I'm wondering, if the HR20 is solid how will IT compare the to the VIP622?


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

That's a fair summary. The only thing I have to add just now is that the 622 has a number of 'convenience' featues that I would have liked for the HR10, and some other useful improvements:

PIP, also used in menus and guides so you can still watch your channel while in them.

Has 30-second skip, no backdoor needed. On the minus side, it has 30 second skip. Period. You can't change the time.

622 wins hands-down for speed. That was one of my major complaints with the HR10. Examples - picking a show out of the guide and recording it takes about 2 seconds. Reordering priorites of future recordings, about 3 seconds (!).

Info banner for OTA channels shows signal strength.

Has hours-of-recording-time left indicator, both SD and HD.

*4* customizable favorite lists, great if you have kids!

3 builtin guides: all, subscribed, HDonly. Main difference is that the subscribed guide is auto-populated with what you subscribe to, plus any OTAs. HD is prepopulated with all HD channels you get, sat or OTA. Very convenient. Also, guide shows satellite vs ota vs ppv by color-coding the item.

A bunch of interactive stuff, possibly of some use. You can upgrade your subscription via your remote, for instance. Another is 'instant weather', a real-time report for your location.

Can feed a 2nd SD tv, which can be a slave or can have its own channel selection. Not important to me, so I don't have any comments, plus or minus for it.

It _does_ have dual buffers! Just took me a while to figure it out. 2 hours instead of 30 mins.

There is some confusion about season-pass support. The Tivo wins here, but there is an almost-equivalent. When you set up a recording, you can specify all episodes, new episodes, and some other stuff. I have been told (but I haven't had a chance to see it in action) that if a show moves in its timeslot, the recording will be updated, like a season-pass. However, it won't track channel reassigments or timeshifts > 4 hours.

There is also a DishPass feature, which seems to be more like wishlists. It can be set to search for words in a title or program description, exact match or partial match, on any channel and record all that match. Big problem with this for me is that you can't specify new-only for these.

It will be interesting to see what the HR20 looks like. I really think E* has done a good job with the 622, it got a lot to like, but it's missing some things the Tivo has that I'll miss.

Of course, in the end, if you want to stay with satellite, Tivo isn't going to be a choice. At least, not currently. That was another reason I decided to switch. All the new content is coming out as MPEG4, and the HR10 isn't ever going to work with that.


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## Bass Cadet (Jun 30, 2006)

fastep said:


> Sounds pretty cool - beats recording in real-time!
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...


The AV402E itself is enough to make me glad I switched. It is an Archos Gmini402 with added Dish connectivity.

It can output to a monitor using the included composite RCA connectors. It can't record video but it does record stereo audio. The AV500 and AV700 can record video if that's important.

It holds up to 20 hours of Dish SD programming or up to 80 hours of MPEG-4 content (transferred from a PC/Mac). I did transfer avi, mp3, and jpeg files and it played them all no problem. Some people also use it as a portable hard disk or to save digital camera pictures since it can host USB.

Menus/Info? Not sure what you mean. For video, I don't think it saves the data from the Dish Network "Info" screen. For audio and photo files, it does display album covers and info.

You can FF and REW by holding a button, but there is no 30 sec skip.

Another nice feature is you can record Sirius music channels on the 622 and transfer the audio to the 402 in much smaller files. It doesn't store the info about each tune, though.

--------

The DISHPass does seem to be more like WishLists. And while the 622's DISHPass doesn't allow "New" only, it does not record previously saved programs.

--------

As far as programming, HD on E* is $10 more a month ($20 vs. D*'s $10). The packages are bundled differently and with discounts it might not be clear to some people. I couldn't get a straight comparison from E*. The Top 180 seems equivalent to D*'s TC+ and costs $50 instead of $45. The $5/month extra does include TMC and Encore channels. For those with small kids, E* does not carry Sprout. E* seems to have more international programming.


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## CallMeBob (Jun 15, 2005)

Quick question, I didn't see an answer in this thread. Can you switch resolutions on the fly (like using the up arrow on the HR10)? I would rather my display stretch the 4:3 image than the 622, so I would like to be able to switch SD to 480i/p if possible.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

CallMeBob said:


> Quick question, I didn't see an answer in this thread. Can you switch resolutions on the fly (like using the up arrow on the HR10)? I would rather my display stretch the 4:3 image than the 622, so I would like to be able to switch SD to 480i/p if possible.


I haven't found a quick way yet. You can do it via menus, but the HR10 was really easy. I used to use that feature on HR10 for a while, but eventually just left it my preferred setting. So, I haven't looked very hard.

You can change the 622's stretch mode with one button press.


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## ilkevinli (Jan 6, 2001)

I don't know if this will help you. but the 622 outputs to both the HDMI and Analog outputs at the same time.



CallMeBob said:


> Quick question, I didn't see an answer in this thread. Can you switch resolutions on the fly (like using the up arrow on the HR10)? I would rather my display stretch the 4:3 image than the 622, so I would like to be able to switch SD to 480i/p if possible.


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> Tell that to the people that spent $999 for a 921 and can't even sub to the HD Package any more!! The 921 (which came out what, 2 years ago, roughly the same time as the HR10) can't receive ANY HD programming via satellite unless you maintained your HD Package all this time to get grandfathered in.
> 
> What does this have to do with the vip622? People are upset that the HR10 cannot receive the new MPEG4 HD-LIL, well at least you can still get HD programming with it!! Dish totally screwed everyone on the older HD products by not allowing them to get ANY HD Programming...
> 
> Anyway, the biggest selling point (to me) on the HR10 and all TiVo products is the fact the the hard drive is easily upgradable, up to 1.5 terabytes.


Holy Cow! I almost bought one of those crappy 921's a couple of years ago. I had no idea Dish did this! I passed because of all the horror stories I read on it and the fact that it was a cool grand. I then almost went with a 721, at the time it was Dish's most reliable dvr. Those were selling for $300 on Ebay at the time! I ended up just leaving Dish altogether. Best thing I ever did.


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## PAP (Oct 6, 1999)

Great summary above, that's exactly the kind of info that makes this place worthwhile.


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## rickaren (Oct 30, 2002)

PAP said:


> Great summary above, that's exactly the kind of info that makes this place worthwhile.


Sorry this is why I visit this Site less and less. If you think this all is true you must believe in Santa Cause! I presently have both D* & E* HD and if anyone is being screwed presently it's (us) that have Directv and want more HD programing. If you have made any investment in HD or "Home Theater" and don't have E* your investment is not worth much and by the time (Fall of 2007) it may be mostly outdated!. You are not presently fully enjoying all that you could. I upgraded my 942 DVR to their newer VIP 622 MPEG 4 DVR for $299 and received a credit of $200 on my DISH bill less than one week later, after they received it as an exchange. I also received their new DISH 1000 dish installed and new cables as part of this price that ended up @ $99. I now receive 29 HD channels plus all my OTA Local HD channels.

This Group continues to just focus on DirecTV Tivo, which I have invested several thousand in myself, and also love their products. BUT DISH is not as bad as many post here, in fact have a HR10-250 is like having a UTV DVR (which I did) they were great and many liked them, but they went out of business. I kept mine active even when one turner went out expecting D* to make me an offer to up-grade it to a Tivo. (which they never did)

Defend Directv and Tivo, but just because another provider may supply a better product or more HD and better PQ now, doesn't necessitate that it should not be discussed here fairly.

Many have chosen to stay with D* until they get more HD programing and new receiver DVR equipment. This may be later this year or by the Fall of 2007. It will most likely not be Tivo related then, so those that post here may have to change Discussion Groups by then anyway. This Group will become stagnant at some point in time.

One should be able to visit here and find non-bias discussion on HD Tivo (DirecTV) and what else is available by those that may have both like myself (hope to continue to use my large investment with D* & Tivo and follow an up-grade path in the future with D*) or those that have decided to try something else!

We all can learn by this procedure since this Group will not continue to grow in the future if DirecTV Tivo's are indeed a thing of the past. Will those that up-grade to the next D* DVR (non-Tivo) be considered traders to this Group?

DISH is a great competitor to DirecTV that presently offers a better product and better HD PQ and programing, in my view and at a really fair price, presently. Should this make everyone here mad? NO, Directv just needs to catch-up and because of DISH they will. It's just that it may be in the Fall of 2007 and without Tivo!


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## PAP (Oct 6, 1999)

I wasn't commenting on Dish programming but rather a summary of DVR features (post 91/92). I'm a DTV subscriber and have been Dish in the past - I have no loyalty to either. I switched to DTV solely because of the direcTIVO option and I'm leaving them soon because I can't get Tivo AND HDTV at the same time.

To me, Tivo is more important.


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## rickaren (Oct 30, 2002)

kbohip said:


> Holy Cow! I almost bought one of those crappy 921's a couple of years ago. I had no idea Dish did this! I passed because of all the horror stories I read on it and the fact that it was a cool grand. I then almost went with a 721, at the time it was Dish's most reliable dvr. Those were selling for $300 on Ebay at the time! I ended up just leaving Dish altogether. Best thing I ever did.


I wasn't commenting on Dish programming but rather a summary of DVR features (post 91/92). I'm a DTV subscriber and have been Dish in the past - I have no loyalty to either. I switched to DTV solely because of the direcTIVO option and I'm leaving them soon because I can't get Tivo AND HDTV at the same time.

To me, Tivo is more important.

Sorry PAP

Thought you were making reference to the Quote from........kbohip. Yes Tivo was the best but DISH's 622 is pretty good too. Plus and minuses on both but looks like Tivo has had it with D* and DISH has really improved. Maybe in one year that won't be the case. Enjoying both now, but DISH much more than Directv!!!


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

kbohip said:


> Holy Cow! I almost bought one of those crappy 921's a couple of years ago. I had no idea Dish did this! I passed because of all the horror stories I read on it and the fact that it was a cool grand. I then almost went with a 721, at the time it was Dish's most reliable dvr. Those were selling for $300 on Ebay at the time! I ended up just leaving Dish altogether. Best thing I ever did.


It must be nice to read the posts you just wish too. the whole Dish completely screwed 921/942 users is a bit of an exaggeration. link 
Is a $100 upgrade offer a complete screwing?


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> ..... I'm wondering, if the HR20 is solid how will IT compare the to the VIP622?


Can you say R15? if the HR20 is solid it won't be out anytime soon.


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## zooie123 (Feb 22, 2006)

Hey guys,

I just had my install yesterday of the VIP622 from Dish. I was a DirectTV subsciber for 4 years and loved every minute of it. I switched because I could get locals in HD over Dish(as opposed to having to move my OTA Antenna around all the time) and all of the HD channels.

What I have found so far:

1. This thing is fast, lightning compared to the HR10-250. In/Out of menus and through program guide super fast(even wife said to begin with how nice it is with no pauses).

2. Recording is so easy, even setting up "Season Passes" is easy....AND YES you can say only new shows. It is really neat, when you then look up what you are recording, it shows allof the repeats with a line through it, that way you can see what is not recording and it might be a favorite episode, with one click, you can record it.

3. Picture on ALL HD Channels is noticiably better, very clear and again the wife mentioned this also. DiscoveryHD use to be great on DirectTV, but now on Dish, WOW AGAIN!!!

4. Playback of recorded HD Programming is flawless. With DirectTV I could notice a small degradation in picture quality, now with Dish, looks perfect.

5. I think the DVR is much better than DirectTV, again super fast, tells you exactly to the minute how long program is and how much time is left to watch. I love the space feature, telling you how much hard drive space is left for recording, when you record a lot like me it is very useful.

6. The local OTA channels were immediately mapped to the regular stations. Our channel 12 is NBC and I was told the HD version would be in the 6000's. It is mapped to channel 12, and the 6000 version is the SD version, GREAT!!!!

7. The local HD channels look as good as the OTA version, flawless in the Phoenix market. I was really worried about this, but it is awesome.

8. With all of the extra features of the VIP622, I cannot see why anyone would not change.

When I called to cancel with DirectTV, they assured me the new HD DVR would be out the 1st week of August(which I know is a lie). They transfered me 4 times and kept telling me to stay, I finally had to get mean and say "NO MORE!, cancel me now", they finally did. whew......best decision I have ever made.

Zooie


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## ilkevinli (Jan 6, 2001)

I have been with DTV since 1994 and Im sad to say that Im leaving for DIsh. I have nothing bad to say about DTV. I enjoyed my time with them but I just can't stay when Dish is clearly showing their coimmitment to HD. 

I had the 622 installed last week and I am amazed at how good this actually is. I was expecting it to not be that good. This is about 50 times faster than the HR10-250 and does just about everything that the HR10-250 does.

If DTV gets their act together someday maybe Ill be back. But for now I enjoying all this HD on Dish.


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## tony17 (Jun 2, 2003)

CallMeBob said:


> Quick question, I didn't see an answer in this thread. Can you switch resolutions on the fly (like using the up arrow on the HR10)? I would rather my display stretch the 4:3 image than the 622, so I would like to be able to switch SD to 480i/p if possible.


Actually, I would like to know something similar. Can it be setup in "passthrough" mode. For example, if your on a channel where a show is being brodcast in 480i that is what it will output, and then you switch to say ESPNHD which is being broadcast in 720p, will it automatically switch to output in 720p?


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## walendvay (Dec 15, 2004)

How is your signal strength on the 129 satellite? I am reading about all kinds of issues with low signal strength w/ the DISH 1000 dish. 129 has ESPN2 and all of the extra HD channels. 

Also, please specify which city you are in, since this is geographically dependent.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

zooie123 said:


> When I called to cancel with DirectTV, they assured me the new HD DVR would be out the 1st week of August(which I know is a lie). They transfered me 4 times and kept telling me to stay, I finally had to get mean and say "NO MORE!, cancel me now", they finally did. whew......best decision I have ever made.
> 
> Zooie


The HDDVR isn't as much an issue as when are there going to be more HD channels available to DTV subs. They still don't get it. I want more channels, and the ability to record them.

How does SD look, say SciFi? It has gotten real dark lately and the new SciFi Friday season starts soon.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

I guess it was good I started this thread, it's obviously something people want to talk about!

I've had my 622 for a bit over a week now, and here are my final (yeah, sure) comments:

There really isn't much to dislike. I do find it easier to set up recordings on the HR10, but I'm getting used to the 622. As I've noted previously, the 622 has a lot of little convenience features that are really nice, and make it very enjoyable.

Although I'm sure some would disagree, I suspect that an unbiased new user would probably prefer the 622 over the HR10, if for no other reason than the amazing speed. Note that this isn't a condemnation of Tivo in general, but rather D*'s HR10 implementation.

As for E*'s HD and SD quality, I'd give them the edge over D* right now. I don't know if it's the MPEG4 encoding or whether E* compresses less, but I see a lot less compression artifacts. Of course, this is subjective.

So, what's my most negative issue with the 622? It would have to be the recording setup. It's powerful, and has some capabilities that are lacking in the HR10, but it's also more complex to understand, navigate, and use.

My most positive issue would be... well, there's a lot of them really. I'd say it's the speed, followed closely by PIP, 4 favorites (8 if you're running in dual-tv mode), excellent OTA tuner, on and on.

For the HR10, my most negative is without a doubt the sloooowness, followed by the failure of D* to give us anything like a current Tivo version.

My most positive would be the ease of setting up a season pass, or setting up a quick (actually, painfully slow) recording from the guide. You can do both of these with the 622, but it takes more button presses.

One other 622 feature: it makes a great toaster! (this puppy cranks out the heat, even more than the HR10, if you can believe it)


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## Dmitry (May 8, 2002)

tony17 said:


> Actually, I would like to know something similar. Can it be setup in "passthrough" mode. For example, if your on a channel where a show is being brodcast in 480i that is what it will output, and then you switch to say ESPNHD which is being broadcast in 720p, will it automatically switch to output in 720p?


Unfortunately, no, there's no passthrough mode 

Also, I wish that there was an option to turn off the PIP that Bill praises so much -- I time-shift a lot of sporting events and I absolutely do not want to see the third set of a tennis match before I saw the first two  As it is now, the only place the PIP can be turned off is the guide.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

Ok, so I lied about my last post being my last post.  

Just to be clear, the PIP dmitry is referring to is being able to see what's happening on your current channel while you're in menus or the guide. He's right, you always see it in menus, it can be turned off in guide.

Then, there's the other PIP, which is watching two channels at the same time. I love that one, too. Wife hates it. That's totally under your control. The PIP, that is.


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## Walter Lambert (Jul 7, 2000)

wje:
Any problem with the 129 satellite that brings you local channels and Starz. People have complained about the "choppy" picture on their local SD reception.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

Walter Lambert said:


> wje:
> Any problem with the 129 satellite that brings you local channels and Starz. People have complained about the "choppy" picture on their local SD reception.


No, I haven't seen any problems. But, I'm using the 119, 110, and 61.5 satellites. I think 129 is mostly western states coverage, but I'm not sure. 129 must be the one that has stability problems; apparently, it's using up thruster fuel rather rapidly for station keeping.

BTW, I just noticed that E* has 10 satellites up now. It's interesting to see who they've used for lauch services. Very international. First launch was a Chinese Long March, latest was a Russian Proton.


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## Dmitry (May 8, 2002)

wje said:


> Ok, so I lied about my last post being my last post.
> 
> Just to be clear, the PIP dmitry is referring to is being able to see what's happening on your current channel while you're in menus or the guide. He's right, you always see it in menus, it can be turned off in guide.
> 
> Then, there's the other PIP, which is watching two channels at the same time. I love that one, too. Wife hates it. That's totally under your control. The PIP, that is.


Right, I shouldn't have called it PIP to avoid consfusion. It's the PIC (Picture In the Corner) that drives me nuts. I have to add that even if I switch the tuners so the active is not the one that is recording the program I'm about to watch, as soon as I select the program in the list, the PIC will switch to that channel.

And another thing that drives me absolutely nuts is that unlike TiVo DVRs, ViP 622 will not remember the position if a show is still being recorded when you stop watching it. For instance, if you're two hours into a four-hour event when you start watching, watch the first hour and leave, your position will be lost (maybe if you leave it in pause, you'll be OK). You'll have to start at the beginning and fast forward through the first hour. If it completes the recording before you leave, the position will be bookmarked.

Other than that, I love the 622!


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## Dmitry (May 8, 2002)

Walter Lambert said:


> wje:
> Any problem with the 129 satellite that brings you local channels and Starz. People have complained about the "choppy" picture on their local SD reception.


I don't seem to have any problems on the 129. I'm in Bay Area, CA.


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## zooie123 (Feb 22, 2006)

The 129 is getting a signal strength of 95-99. I am in Phoenix, AZ. The picture is awesome.

The SD channels comparing all of the kids channels(my kids live by them) and the scifi(I love it) and Food Network is far better on Dish. There is a clarity that was not there before with DirectTV.


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## jimborst (Aug 30, 2001)

I am using the 129 and am getting in the 80's on most of the transponders. My locals are on there and the HD channels. I'm getting as good as signal as I had with the Super dish on the 105 satellite.


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## ilkevinli (Jan 6, 2001)

And this is my only major complaint about the 622. I really hope they fix this with the next update.



Dmitry said:


> Right, I shouldn't have called it PIP to avoid consfusion. It's the PIC (Picture In tAnd another thing that drives me absolutely nuts is that unlike TiVo DVRs, ViP 622 will not remember the position if a show is still being recorded when you stop watching it. For instance, if you're two hours into a four-hour event when you start watching, watch the first hour and leave, your position will be lost (maybe if you leave it in pause, you'll be OK). You'll have to start at the beginning and fast forward through the first hour. If it completes the recording before you leave, the position will be bookmarked.


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## txfeinbergs (Mar 21, 2004)

Owned a HR10-250 for 2 years. I have owned a VIP622 now for 4 months after switching to DISH. There is no way I would go back. My VIP622 is rock solid and is very fast (the guide is the main selling point to me - you can scroll around the thing instantaneously and have 8 rows of channel data displayed at once OR have PIP playing while viewing the guide). It has never missed a program. My HR10-250 was rock solid for the first year, but was incredibly slow. After the first year, it became an albatros and constantly locked up, rebooted, started and ended programs early/late. Clear and Delete fixed this - but of course that wipes out everything and I figured if I was going to have to do that every year, I might as well switch.

Tyrone, you love to slam dish on their "update" frequency. I have had 4 updates to the VIP622. None of them have broken already existing functionality (at least that I have personally experienced). I know there are a bunch of vocal critics on SatelliteUSA and other forums, but these always seem to be the same people *****ing, and most times you see a poll taken, they are in the minority. This is a brand new box using new technology (MPEG4) and you can expect unexpected problems to arise that need fixing. Maybe once a month is too often, but once every ??? is definitely not often enough in the HR10-250's case. No matter what you say, it is NOT a perfect box in my opinion, but it could have been if DirecTV had allowed TIVO to update it.


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## txfeinbergs (Mar 21, 2004)

wje said:


> One other 622 feature: it makes a great toaster! (this puppy cranks out the heat, even more than the HR10, if you can believe it)


That comment I will definitely agree with. I am afraid that someday I will have to use a fire extinguisher to put the thing out, but according to DISH, it is within normal operating parameters (130 degrees F), and is stable. The fan hardly ever turns on in the thing which means it is extremely quite (much more-so than the HR10-250), but you have to wonder if they weren't a little too aggressive in controlling the noise).


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## CallMeBob (Jun 15, 2005)

I called Dish and tried to order service and two 622s. They told me I could have one 622 and a regular HD receiver. WTF. Anyone have two of these things? I wanted to switch from cable, but I won't unless I can get two boxes.


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## txfeinbergs (Mar 21, 2004)

CallMeBob said:


> I called Dish and tried to order service and two 622s. They told me I could have one 622 and a regular HD receiver. WTF. Anyone have two of these things? I wanted to switch from cable, but I won't unless I can get two boxes.


You can get two, but you have to purchase one. You can only lease one. I think they are going for around $400-$500 if you want to purchase one, but not 100% sure.


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## CallMeBob (Jun 15, 2005)

txfeinbergs said:


> You can get two, but you have to purchase one. You can only lease one. I think they are going for around $400-$500 if you want to purchase one, but not 100% sure.


I offered to buy one, she told me her system would only allow one 622 per customer and that I could have a free standard HD receiver. I guess I should call and talk to another CSR and see what response I get from them. BTW, I'm still a little confused on the coax runs. Am I correct in saying that you only need one coax per box and that you split that right before the box to get dual tuners?


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## txfeinbergs (Mar 21, 2004)

CallMeBob said:


> I offered to buy one, she told me her system would only allow one 622 per customer and that I could have a free standard HD receiver. I guess I should call and talk to another CSR and see what response I get from them. BTW, I'm still a little confused on the coax runs. Am I correct in saying that you only need one coax per box and that you split that right before the box to get dual tuners?


You have to buy the second one from an independant dealer, not through Dish. As far as you second question - you only need one Coax run to the box to support dual tuners. Dish has a smart switch that does the multiplexing (which is either in your attic, or at the Dish itself, not sure honestly) - but it was really nice not having to run a second coax line (and I have heard 3 will actually be needed for the HR20-250 if you still want OTA - but don't quote me on that - you can search on threads on DBSTalk or Satelliteguys if you want more info on that).


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

CallMeBob said:


> I called Dish and tried to order service and two 622s. They told me I could have one 622 and a regular HD receiver. WTF. Anyone have two of these things? I wanted to switch from cable, but I won't unless I can get two boxes.


I have 2. Both purchased.


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## aaronbca (Jan 9, 2005)

Bill...

Count me as one who's glad you started this thread. I've been doing this same comparison for a few weeks now, trying to figure if I want to stick with D* or go to E*, based mostly on the hardware/software experience - for HD, E* wins, price, E* wins, one cable run, E* wins, Tivo, D* wins, but not long term, comfort level, D* wins, and OTA is not a factor for me - it comes down to will I like the hardware for my needs, and will the customer service be ok for me. I wish I could keep Tivo, but it seems Tivo is concentrating on cable - and in my area Adelphia's reliability is zero. With D*'s picture quality going downhill, and dropping tivo - it leaves little option. So I'm looking at trying E*, and this discussion has been helpful. I would be curious to see what the comparisons are once this upcoming 6.3 update comes down - if the HDTivo is comparable in speed, etc to the 622 box... Hoping people will post opinions when it happens...

Here's my other thing -- my one huge qualm with E* is their policy of no refunds on the lease upgrade fee no matter what, even as a new customer...even with the 30 day money back guarantee - they get you for $199 no matter what. I like to try things - and in this case, you can't, really, until you have it installed - and once you do, even if you return the box, you are still out $199. THAT, to me, is really bad policy. I'd rather have a normal return policy - even paying $300, and be able to return the box during a 14 day return period, than have no option at all. Bad customer service/sales policy to me. Esp since you have to really ask to find that out. Chances are I'll like it and keep it, but I don't like not having the option. That's a lot - $50 or 75, fine. $199 - uh uh. Is this a firm policy, or if I holler loud enough if it's not good for me, will they back down?


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

aaronbca said:


> I would be curious to see what the comparisons are once this upcoming 6.3 update comes down - if the HDTivo is comparable in speed, etc to the 622 box... Hoping people will post opinions when it happens...
> 
> Here's my other thing -- my one huge qualm with E* is their policy of no refunds on the lease upgrade fee no matter what, even as a new customer...even with the 30 day money back guarantee - they get you for $199 no matter what.


Because of my generally suspicious nature, my guess is that the 6.3 update becoming available is more bad news... if D*'s new HD-DVR was actually going to be ready, why put the effort into the HR10? Earl says otherwise, and he usually knows what he's talking about. Still, a software upgrade won't fix everything - it'll still have the same QTA tuner, it will still be MPEG-2, etc.

As for that silly E* policy, yes, that was rather strange and annoying. I thought about it a bit, and finally decided that it was worth $199 to try out the competition. No regrets so far.


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## ilkevinli (Jan 6, 2001)

Thats not what I was told when I ordered. I was told I would receive the credit of 249.99 (includeds the 199.00) if I canceled within the 30 days.



aaronbca said:


> Bill...
> 
> Here's my other thing -- my one huge qualm with E* is their policy of no refunds on the lease upgrade fee no matter what, even as a new customer...even with the 30 day money back guarantee - they get you for $199 no matter what. I like to try things - and in this case, you can't, really, until you have it installed - and once you do, even if you return the box, you are still out $199. THAT, to me, is really bad policy. I'd rather have a normal return policy - even paying $300, and be able to return the box during a 14 day return period, than have no option at all. Bad customer service/sales policy to me. Esp since you have to really ask to find that out. Chances are I'll like it and keep it, but I don't like not having the option. That's a lot - $50 or 75, fine. $199 - uh uh. Is this a firm policy, or if I holler loud enough if it's not good for me, will they back down?


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## darrinbutts (Nov 9, 2004)

I just switched to Dish's VIP622 as well.

What is the value of a 500GB (2 HD) HR10 these days?


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

Since this thread is bumped again. What do you all think having been using the 622 for about a month or so?


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## Walter Lambert (Jul 7, 2000)

Over the past year, I have switched from DTV HR10 to Comcast 6412p.3 to Dish VIP 622 (this month). The VIP 622 has worked beautifully. IMO, the VIP 622 is the best HD DVR currently available. The PQ and (surprisingly) sound has been better than any other option that I have tried, and the VIP is very close to Tivo in terms of the interface. Really, for the first time since a Tivo series 2 with serial control (remember the AT&T model), I have not been frustrated with the lack of HD content, PQ or a slow or "cluncky" DVR. At this point, I am very satisfied.


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## jimborst (Aug 30, 2001)

I am really happy with this DVR, I have a standalone TiVo that I have been using with Dishnetwork for years. Then when I decided to get HD, I was worried about a Dish DVR, as I'd heard they were so inferior, but this works nice. I do not like how it handles the wishlists (DishPass) as good, but the dual tuners and the two TV output is great.


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## Pisser (Dec 8, 2004)

jonvn said:


> So if you have a Tivo, and you get dish, the Tivo is basically useless?


Not really. I have a 622 and a 2 Pioneers DVD tivo's (lifetime). I'm feeding one of the outputs from the 622 to a tivo and the other tivo is using a ethernet bridge. So I can record on the 622 and transfer (dumb vcr) to the tivo. From the tivo I now can use my tivotogo option and take my recordings to work. For me it's worth it, but for some that are still paying for tivo service, it may not.


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## jonvn (Feb 19, 2005)

I just got a 622 myself, and a 625. I have the tivo hooked up to the 625, and use one tuner in the 625 as the tivo tuner, and other to watch something else while the tivo is recording, or as a second recorder. It works out ok. 

The tivo interface is light years ahead of the dish boxes. They are really very cumbersome to deal with The Motorola box we had with RCN cable was much easier to work with than these are.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

The thread that just won't die! Cool.
Anyway, I started this thread when I switched a month ago. I'm still quite pleased, and have no regrets about switching. After a month of getting used to the 622, my opinion is that it is significantly better than the HR10 in a number of ways. It has worked absolutely flawlessly for me.

As for its user interface being better or worse than the Tivo interface, there is no black-and-white answer. The 622 has some very nice features that Tivo doesn't, and vice-versa. I'd give Tivo the edge in the ease of setting up and managing recordings, but the 622 actually gives you more control over them. The speed is fantastic. But, I was really disappointed when I reordered my recording priorities ant it took 4 seconds.  

As for the content providers, E* wins hands-down. The HD PQ is in general significantly better than D*'s, and there's actually enough HD content that I'm not watching the same three shows over and over and over.

One amusing note - there's been just as much ranting about HDMI problems on dbstalk about the 622 as there were for the HR10, and they're basically the same ones! Either HDMI is *really* hard to get right, or the problems aren't just with the DVR end. My HDMI has worked just fine, though.

So, all in all, if you're not firmly in the 'nothing could ever compare to a Tivo' camp, the 622 is really a very nice unit. I certainly wouldn't go back at this point.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

I am scheduled for an install next Sunday. Can't complain about the price and the amount of HD, which is what I am primarily interested in. Will see starting after next weekend. The only thing I didn't like so far is I received a call from Dish, and it was a confirmation call. They guy, with an accent so heavy that it took me a while to figure out it wasn't a telemarketer, didn't identify the purpose of the call until I interrupted him and asked why am I having my complete order repeated to me, after I spent my time placing the order. Then his call started breaking up. He also tried to inform me that I was entitled to $100 back, and then I had to correct him that it was $200, over 10 months. I do not like dealing with misinformed CSRs, I should not know more than them about their own product. Thank God his phone crapped out and the call ended.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

super dave said:


> I am scheduled for an install next Sunday....I do not like dealing with misinformed CSRs, I should not know more than them about their own product. Thank God his phone crapped out and the call ended.


Yes, some things are constant, whether D* or E*. 

The CSR's I've taked to have all been very nice English speakers. The only contact I made with them was to place the order. From them though, I got a call confirming the installation, a call saying the installer was on his way, a call to confirm he arrived, and a call to be sure everything was OK. I suppose this is a good thing, but it was a bit tiresome!

One other note. The installer claims that all E* installers work for E*, they're not independent contractors. Don't know if this is true or not, but this guy did the best install job I've ever had. (He also pointed out, politely, that the D* installer hadn't even put the nuts on the LNB retaining screws! That D* installer was a joke, and I ended up fixing a few things he had left undone.)


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

Thanks for the input guys, glad to know that its working out OK so far. I still have not changed providers.  Fortunatly for me I have been too busy with work (and working outdoors) to really care at this point. But once the new TV season fires up and it gets cold outside this will once again become a top priority. Still no 6.3 and the HR20 is proably still months away (despite the mid august comments) and with each passing day I lean more and more towards dish or perhaps the series 3 and cable.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

I have found it an easy transition from the DTiVo to the 622. I love the 30 second skip w/out reprogramming my remote. Don't like no slow motion/frame by frame buttons. PQ in HD is amazing. My HDMI works without any hassles. The menus are different, in name only , the box does all that I need. We used TiVo for first run SPs. Dish has this, just different names. I never used suggestions, didn't like it, and the 622 doesn't have it so no loss there. There is a swap button, so tuners are swapped. A 2 hour buffer, but if I liked something I would just hit record. One thing that I had to get used to was if you are watching a show and hit record I have to then go into options if I want to record the show from the beginning, otherwise it records form the point of time that I hit the button. But then if I only wanted the rest of what I was watching with my TiVo I had to change channels to clear the buffer, so 6 of one, half dozen of another. I like hitting the guide buttons 3 times and only viewing the HD channels, of which there are enough to keep me busy for a while.


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## smoberly (Jul 6, 2004)

I have read this entire thread, and can't seem to figure this out...a little off topic, but if E* is Dish Network, why is it referred to as E*?


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## AZEntropy (Dec 31, 2001)

smoberly said:


> I have read this entire thread, and can't seem to figure this out...a little off topic, but if E* is Dish Network, why is it referred to as E*?


Dish Network is a brand name, the company name is EchoStar Satellite L.L.C.


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

We have finally decided to jump to dish network too. I am scheduled to go pick up two 622s and two dishes from my local sat company on tuesday. I am going to try to install everything next week if I get a chance. I am keeping my fingers crossed that everything works like I hope it does. The tipping point was the InHD and Food Network HD stuff being uplinked and ready to be turned on. And from what I am hearing possibly some more national stuff in HD soon.

I was going to wait for comcast to finish the transition in this area from Adelphia and wait for the Tivo S3. But this is going to take several months and eat into the new TV season too much, besides at the moment the HD offerings of comcast (or even worse adelphia in my area) is no where near what I can get with Dish at this time.

I might take the 18 month commitment to save 50 bucks, but I am still undecided on this. I guess I could and bail in several months and pay the fee if Comcast or DirecTV (doubtful on this one by a long shot) gets their act together. I am hopeful that DirecTV will get something going at some point (maybe in a year or two?) and by then we will have a DirecTV card for Windows that can use a software product like Windows Media center or better yet, SageTV. And by then we all will know what direction DirecTV will take with their much better bandwidth pool, better quality or just more quantity with the same medicore PQ.

On a side note. I had a chance to work with the VIP211 today at the local shop and I was very impressed with everything I saw with the receiver. The HD channels looked great as even did the SD channels all on a 42" plasma. I was so impressed I decided to get TWO 622s one for the family room and one for the theater.

I appreciate the information in this thread for us hd-tivo users who were thinking of switching service. Lots of great info and looking forward to using this new receiver.


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## PAP (Oct 6, 1999)

I also appreciate this info. I looked at switching but no locals in HD here so that's a killer. Do most places have locals in HD on E*?

It just doesn't seem like it should be so hard


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

Aren't any of you worried that E* lost the patent suit? If E* doesn't work out a license with Tivo soon I'm betting Tivo will win there injunction they have filled against E* to stop there infringing DVRs.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

Personally, no. It's extremely unlikely that any injunction would ever be issued. Either some settlement will be reached, Tivo's award wil be overturned on appeal, Tivo's patents will be invalidated, or E* will buy Tivo. (Or, maybe E+D*, if the rumors are true, which I hope they're not!).

Some of Tivo's patents have already been invalidated. The whole thing reminds me of the recent lawsuits that SCO was threatening against anyone using Linux, claiming trade-secret and copyright infringement. That's gone nowhere, and was really just an attempt by SCO to extort money from IBM, et al.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

PAP said:


> I also appreciate this info. I looked at switching but no locals in HD here so that's a killer. Do most places have locals in HD on E*?
> 
> It just doesn't seem like it should be so hard


E* is rolling out HD locals as fast as they can, just like D*. I have them. Like D*, the locals are MPEG4. Unlike D*, E* has an MPEG4 HD-DVR; that's been one of the problems with D*'s rollout. That's one of the reasons I switched... I couldn't get decent OTA with the HR10, and no MPEG4 HD DVR. Funny thing is, now I get HD locals via satellite, but the tuner in the 622 is so much better that I get all my OTAs too!

Take a look on dbstalk.com, there's probably a list of what's available, and the rollout schedule for the remaining areas.


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

wje said:


> Personally, no. It's extremely unlikely that any injunction would ever be issued. Either some settlement will be reached, Tivo's award wil be overturned on appeal, Tivo's patents will be invalidated, or E* will buy Tivo. (Or, maybe E+D*, if the rumors are true, which I hope they're not!).
> 
> Some of Tivo's patents have already been invalidated. The whole thing reminds me of the recent lawsuits that SCO was threatening against anyone using Linux, claiming trade-secret and copyright infringement. That's gone nowhere, and was really just an attempt by SCO to extort money from IBM, et al.


From what I've read of the coverage on here (there's a entire thread dedicated to it) it looks more likely tivo will have a injuction and lots of cash. This was posted on the thread a month or so ago.

"760 Filed & Entered: 07/07/2006 
Proposed Findings of Fact

46 page document. Not a lot people on this board don't already know but here is the summary.

VI. SUMMARY OF CONCLUSIONS OF LAW
213. The Court finds in favor of TiVo and against EchoStar on the defense of
inequitable conduct and finds the Barton patent to be enforceable.
214. The Court finds in favor of TiVo and against EchoStar on the defense of equitable estoppel.
215. The Court finds in favor of TiVo and against EchoStar on the defense of laches.
216. Judgment will be entered in favor of TiVo and against EchoStar accordance with the jury verdict and the Court's decision herein."

This was posted by mtchamp in response for a status update.

"There have been still more court filings and motions on both sides since the bench trial at the end of June. We were supposed to have some decisions handed down from the judge by 08/01/06. The judge did make an order on that date but it's sealed and no has leaked the contents.

TiVo is continuing to combat Echostar's delay tactics for final judgement and decisions in this case in several courts. It appears Echostar is doing everything it can to avoid an injunction, but TiVo is fighting back.

The major problem is that Echostar still has not turned over all of the documents as ordered by the court to TiVo. These missing documents are holding everything up. Tivo and the court needs these documents in order to enter a final verdict on willfullness and then be able to rule on trebel damages.

You can read some good posts both factual and speculative on the TiVo forum at InvestorsVillage.com

http://investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=3928&pt=m

It appears that the judge has the power and good cause to at least issue the injunction immediately according to several Notices filed by TiVo last week asking the judge to rule on TiVo's Permanent Injunction Motion. TiVo has also asked a Judge to sanction Echostar and hold them in contempt for not turning over all documents that the court ordered them to produce to TiVo. TiVo wants all 360 something documents that are known to exist, to be reviewed in-camera by a judge, because Echostar has so far turned over less than 100 of them to TiVo.

One of those missing documents is likely the smoking gun that seals Echostar's fate on Enhanced Damages and kills Echostar's chances of an appeal because it is presumed to show that Echostar was advised by outside counsel that they would be infringing on TiVo's patents if they built their own DVR and they went ahead and built them and sold them anyway. Maybe the judge will finally do something this week."

So who knows you might be saying goodbye vip 622 soon lol.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

Regardless of the merits or ladk thereof of the case, still not likely. The jurisdiction that found for Tivo is one of the 'plaintiff always wins' Texas courts. That particular one finds for the plaintiff 75% of the time, and the verdict is usually overturned or signficantly reduced in scope on appeal.

Last I heard, E*'s countersuit is scheduled for next year, so nothing much will happen until then. Usually in cases with a large consumer impact, even if an injunction is issued, it's also stayed until the followup cases are resolved (probably because so many Texas verdicts are overturned). (no, I'm not a lawyer, but my brother is. I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn, either)

Personally, although I've been a Tivo user since D* first offered them, I'm significantly annoyed with Tivo right now. They pretty much seem to have sat on their thumbs, let D* come out with a poorly-imlemented HD DVR, and not do *anything* for us... the next-gen D* unit isn't a Tivo, either. Tivo obviously has no business sense; seems all they can do is lose money then try to force D*, E*, and the cable companies to pay licensing fees for technogy they didn't follow through on.

Note that I'm not claiming that E* didn't rip them off, although I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle. 

Guess that's enough ranting for today.


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## divinginjupiter (Nov 5, 2004)

I have now had the VIP-622 now for about a month, after having HR10-250 for 2 years, and here are my thoughts:

User interface is different, but I would consider the 622 better, mainly because of how fast the software is.

Directv now offers HD locals in my area, and Dish does not, however I have found that the 622s over the air, is soooooooo much better. I get all my locals no problem, and would prefer to get them OTA. With the Tivo, I was lucky to get two channels.

Picture quality is a lot better on Dish. HD is great, but where I find the best increase in PQ is on the SD channels. Watching channels like SciFi is a lot clearer. Watching SD football on Directvs locals was almost unwatchable, but on Dish, all comes in clear.

Now you may hear people slam the Voom channels on Dish, but I find them great. I spend a lot of time watching EquatorHD, which has a lot of travel, and nature shows. I also like the WorldSportsHD channel.


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## elbodude (Feb 15, 2005)

divinginjupiter said:


> I have now had the VIP-622 now for about a month, after having HR10-250 for 2 years, and here are my thoughts:
> 
> User interface is different, but I would consider the 622 better, mainly because of how fast the software is.
> 
> ...


AMEN!! I switched last week as well. I do miss the TiVo interface, but the PQ on E* is much better than D*. The 622 is a nice box. Being able to record the HD locals from the Sat. is nice.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

This thread has some very useful information, once you filter thru all the E* vs D* crap. Thanks to those that contributed. For me the one OTA tuner of the 622 is a deal breaker. Given that I am in DMA 94 (or something) it will be about 1.5-2 yrs before I see Mpg4 locals via sat, hence teh need for dual OTA tuners.

Regarding differeces in the two units, It's just a matter of deciding what is important to you and your needs. For me it's OTA tuners, for someone else it may be 29 HD channels. Nothing wrong with either situation, just different.


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

Just installed Dish today with a 622 receiver. So far, I don't understand WHY I waited. SD looks much imporved, HD is much better and this receiver so far is working very well. Very fast and I really like it. I will try to report back in a week or so once this thing starts to record shows.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

I am glad this thread was bumped. I will be moving in October and I am now leaning toward Dish and the 622 when we move. I appreciate the comparisons with D* and the HR10-250. If only D* would have stuck with TiVo for the new Mpeg-4 DVR I would likely have stayed. 

Also it sounds like Dish will be getting some local RSNs in HD fairly soon. I am hoping for the SF Bay Area.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

FoodHD is scheduled to be up and running tomorrow. I let the wife know to look for it in the HD Guide, since that is her favorite channel. Had a bunch of relatives over last weekend and they couldn't stop watching all the HD channels I now get. Don't know why I waited so long.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

MarcusInMD said:


> Just installed Dish today with a 622 receiver. So far, I don't understand WHY I waited. SD looks much imporved, HD is much better and this receiver so far is working very well. Very fast and I really like it. I will try to report back in a week or so once this thing starts to record shows.


I'm glad YOU'RE happy recording only one OTA show at a time..

For me, I'm rather used to my dual tuners.


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

I'm not too concerned about that right now. And once the MPEG4 locals go live I will be able to record 3 local channels at once.


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

Dave,
Are we certain that FoodTV will be up tomorrow? Will be very nice.

Spent the past several hours working with this new receiver and I have to say that I am very impressed with it. It's very flexible with the favorites and how they work with the guide etc. Appears to be recording the way it should the stuff I programmed in. That's what I care most about.

Dish gives me more right now. In a year I will see how the playing field looks.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> I'm glad YOU'RE happy recording only one OTA show at a time..
> 
> For me, I'm rather used to my dual tuners.


My locals are on the dish, so I have 3 tuners active to record.

Marcus....FoodHD is on now. The next one in line is INHD


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

Got it. Thanks! Looks great.


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

FoodHD is up now. The 622 is good when working but...

I've had a leased 622 for 2 months and it has been rebooting spontaneously the whole time. I just got off the phone with a Dish tech and they are sending a new 622. There's goes all my recordings.

I had delayed insisting on a replacement until now but today I had 3 reboots and one complete picture freeze up. A few weeks ago I even added a laptop cooler fan thinking it was overheating.

My HR10-250's have problems but I've not had to replace one yet. <knock wood>


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

Not sure I posted this before, but before changing DBS providers/DVRs, always check out these forums:

http://www.dbsforums.com
http://www.dbstalk.com
http://www.satelliteguys.us (they started out OK, but now the site is too cluttered to suit me)


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## Scott Greczkowsk (Aug 17, 2006)

goony said:


> (they started out OK, but now the site is too cluttered to suit me)


I agree with this statement. 

We are actually working on this issue now and will be making some major changes over the next few weeks to improve things and get rid of most of the clutter.

Scott


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## jaymerkramer3 (Feb 16, 2001)

This has been a nice thread to read, I ordered a VIP622 and standard 625 DVR and is supposed to be installed on 8-21. I am really sad to be getting rid of my Dtivo's. I purchased my sony T-60 the week it came out. All 3 of my DTIVO's have run flawless. I figure if I have to go to a non tivo unit then I might as well go for the one with the most features and HD content. St. Louis locals are carried in MPEG-4 on both "E" and "D", plus I have an OTA so I'll be able to record 3 HD streams at a time which will rock. I am also going to order a portable dish player, they look pretty cool. One of the deal killers for me was that on the review I read of the new "D" HD DVR, it does not have dual buffers. I use this all the time and would be a hard habit to change.
I'm still a little nervous about the switch, I have been with "D" for over 9 years and before that had a C band B.U.D. I have no complaints about my "D" service except for them going away from Tivo(why, why, why) I have been watching HD on my plasma's built in tuner, and cant wait to start timeshifting it. I'll check back in with how the experience goes from install to using the new boxes. 
Thanks all for the good information found in this thread


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

Hey Jay,
I like you started with C-Band. While nothing can beat the c-band PQ experience So far Dish is as close to that experience as you an get with a little dish IMO. To my eyes, Dish network SD and obviosuly HD is better than DirecTVs. The 622 so far has not missed a recording (2 days) and the functionality is nice, speed is leaps and bounds above the HD-Tivo. Judging by the screen shots I have seen of the new DIrecTV HD-DVR I am personally not disappointed that I switched. Graphics look nicer on this unit IMO. To me, the direcTVs graphics look like something from a commodore 64 or something. Very "80s" type graphics and text.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

Hey Scott, welcome to the forum. I can see now that the DVRs are changing at such a pace we will all keep track of every unit that comes out. This is the TiVo place and I miss my little box, but love the HD I get with the 622. If DTV changes direction and takes care of the HD crowd I can see returning. I am not one that won't adapt to the new standard, as long as it meets my needs. So far the 622 is different, but not much. We have to adapt to new OSs every few years so why not DVRs?

Scott you seemed to have lost an "i" on your name. On purpose?


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## bobiii (Feb 6, 2005)

Yes it does, as long as the receiver is on the one tv mode. Then you have the pip and it has a swap button that allows you to go back and forth between channels and rewinding as necessary. I watch two programs at the same time this way and my wife loves this feature.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> I'm glad YOU'RE happy recording only one OTA show at a time..
> 
> For me, I'm rather used to my dual tuners.


LOL............ Boy you never give up!

Enjoy your ~10 HD satellite channels- Oh you don't watch those anyway much less 30-nevermind

Enjoy your old SW- Oh ya Dish updates SW to often-nevermind

Enjoy your D* Tivo - Oh those are EOL so enjoy your HR20

Enjoy that snappy Tivo 3.1.5 interface- Oh it doesn't both you

Did I miss anything this time around? 
Oh, the HR10 is upgradeable but the Vip has USB HDD support coming. 

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

frankygamer said:


> LOL............ Boy you never give up!
> 
> Enjoy your ~10 HD satellite channels- Oh you don't watch those anyway much less 30-nevermind
> 
> ...


What does any of that have to do with no being able to record two ota programs at the same time?

And no, I don't care about 30 channels that have things like up-converted kung fu movies in HD-LITE as much as I care about oh I don't know, NFL Football.

And by the way, why do you keep trolling around the TIVOCommunity when you are so happy with Dish?


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

Goodbye vip622 boys! Tivo was just granted a injunction on all dish network dvr's. They have 30 days to comply and there motion to stay the injunction until appeal was denied!


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Not so fast, generalpatton.
http://www.wams.de/appl/newsticker2/index.php?channel=fin&module=smarthouse&id=423677


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

bidger said:


> Not so fast, generalpatton.
> http://www.wams.de/appl/newsticker2/index.php?channel=fin&module=smarthouse&id=423677


pwned.


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## PAP (Oct 6, 1999)

Actually I hope TiVo wins the case, but we all knew that injunction was not going to hold until after all appeals have been settled. 

Lets keep it civil, eh gents.


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

Tivo winning this lawsuit is bad for everyone. It will force higher prices for the devices that we all love in the long run. I find it quite amusing that tivo is trying to stay alive as a company by suing and not innovating. 5 years down the road, tivo might be gone as a company but the corporate landscape it leaves in its wake might be riddled with with the corpses of innovative products by other companies that were put to death by their selfish greed.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

MarcusInMD said:


> Tivo winning this lawsuit is bad for everyone. It will force higher prices for the devices that we all love in the long run. I find it quite amusing that tivo is trying to stay alive as a company by suing and not innovating. 5 years down the road, tivo might be gone as a company but the corporate landscape it leaves in its wake might be riddled with with the corpses of innovative products by other companies that were put to death by their selfish greed.


Yeah, cause the guys who invent things should never get their due.

Sorry. If TiVo innovated to get the industry started and still holds the patents, they deserve to get their money.

It is not greed to not want to be stolen from.

Gee, by your view, the guy who is robbed at gunpoint is greedy if he doesn't want to be.


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## PRMan (Jul 26, 2000)

TiVo winning this lawsuit is good because it greatly increases the chances that you will have a TiVo software option with D*, E*, cable, etc.


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

By your comments then Tivo should file suit against EVERY DVR product ever made. MythTV, SageTV, Microsoft MCE, Motorola Boxes, Scientific Atlanta boxes, I could go on and on. This lawsuit is a joke in it's own right. The more I read about the case the more I lose faith in our legal system and the patent system of the US.

The bottom line is tivo is surviving as a company by now leaching off other companies though the court system. I find it ironic that they are the LAST company to come out with a DVR that records HDTV material (besides the DirecTV OWNED hd-Tivo)


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

MarcusInMD said:


> I find it ironic that they are the LAST company to come out with a DVR that records HDTV material (besides the DirecTV OWNED hd-Tivo)


What other standalone HDTV DVRs are there? Not all that many...and creating one really needed cablecard to be viable. A year ago how many would they have sold? Ten? Of what benefit is it to Tivo to start selling the S3 before the market is big enough to support it?

I guess I just don't understand your reasoning.

And I also don't understand your issue with patents. Do you think they shouldn't exist, or that they simply shouldn't be enforced?


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## majortom (Apr 17, 2002)

MarcusInMD said:


> By your comments then Tivo should file suit against EVERY DVR product ever made.


I fully expect that once they have settled with Echostar, they will then approach every other manufacturer about licensing their patents. Those that do not settle will then be sued. In IP cases, one sues companies in series, as each victory makes settlements with future companies more likely.

/carmi


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

MarcusInMD said:


> By your comments then Tivo should file suit against EVERY DVR product ever made. MythTV, SageTV, Microsoft MCE, Motorola Boxes, Scientific Atlanta boxes, I could go on and on. This lawsuit is a joke in it's own right. The more I read about the case the more I lose faith in our legal system and the patent system of the US.
> 
> The bottom line is tivo is surviving as a company by now leaching off other companies though the court system. I find it ironic that they are the LAST company to come out with a DVR that records HDTV material (besides the DirecTV OWNED hd-Tivo)


I find it ironic that you claim to have read about this lawsuit. If you did, you'd know that TiVo was in talks with Echostar a long time ago, at a time when E*'s DVR was not performing well. TiVo shared some proprietary info with E*, E* dropped talks with TiVo, and soon thereafter E* produced a DVR that TiVo investigated and found had used some of the features that TiVo owns patents on and had shared knowledge of with E*.

TiVo is going after E* because E* essentially stole TiVo's IP without compensating TiVo for it. E* has profited by including TiVo's IP in several million DVRs. That's the bottom line. You want companies to be innovative, but E* apparently thinks it's easier to steal than to innovate.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

Drew,

Why would you want confuse these unfounded opinions with the facts at hand?


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> What does any of that have to do with no being able to record two ota programs at the same time?
> 
> And no, I don't care about 30 channels that have things like up-converted kung fu movies in HD-LITE as much as I care about oh I don't know, NFL Football.
> 
> And by the way, why do you keep trolling around the TIVOCommunity when you are so happy with Dish?


Why do you have to keep justifying your decision to switch to D* by giving crap to people who switch to Dish. One OTA tuner and no NFLST may not be the end of the world for everyone. If it is for you fine but don't assume that for everyone. Hell, some people probably like the kung fu channel even though i prefer Rave, STARZHD, PIP, faster guide , better PQ.... And what are you talking about HD-LITE for? D* = HDLITE. At least Dish still provides some stations in full HD. linky ?

As I've stated before I come here looking for series 3 information. Why do you keep clicking on this thread? Just to rip on people who have different satellite needs then you? 


> I'm glad YOU'RE happy recording only one OTA show at a time..


What's your point when you post stuff like this? At least get some new material like jumping on the "Dish will have to disable all DVR" bandwagon.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

frankygamer said:


> Why do you have to keep justifying your decision to switch to D* by giving crap to people who switch to Dish. One OTA tuner and no NFLST may not be the end of the world for everyone. If it is for you fine but don't assume that for everyone. Hell, some people probably like the kung fu channel even though i prefer Rave, STARZHD, PIP, faster guide , better PQ.... And what are you talking about HD-LITE for? D* = HDLITE. At least Dish still provides some stations in full HD. linky .


I never said anything about NFLST.

Often times their are two NFL games on HD OTA. FULL HD not HD-Lite like dish HD-LIL (and directv, that's why OTA is the way to go.) I don't know why you would argue that locals via satellite are equal to locals OTA. OTA is better.

I'm not giving anyone crap, just debating your opinion that the vip622 is better than the HR10. I disagree. You were hoping that nobody would disagree with you that the vip is better than the TiVo in the TiVo forum??


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

Your still assuming that 1 OTA tuner is the end of the world and that alone makes the VIP crap. It is a negative but it is easily worked around by getting two like myself, waiting and getting a Series 3 to complement the VIP622, or getting a Samsung or LG DVR. That's assuming OTA is even important to the buyer! We're talking _SATELLITE_ companies here aren't we.

You still didn't answer my question. What is the point of posts like this............ 


> I'm glad YOU'RE happy recording only one OTA show at a time..


 That is crapping on somebody without knowing what they want/need. Personally I think its dumb to have a HR10 for OTA recording only and paying D* at least $40/ month to be able too but I would never say that. Oops just did.

Finally, when will you separate D* and Tivo? They are two companies. If the HR10 had 6.3, I'd probably still be a D* subscriber. Don't tell me Tivo is holding back the update, or they are still working on it. It's been ready for 1.5 years.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

In a (no doubt vain) attempt to drag this thread back somewhere near where it started, has anyone used both the 622 and the HR20 yet? I kept waiting for the HR20, finally gave up, dumped D*, and went with the 622.

Of course, as soon as I did that, the HR20 came out. But, my initial impressions from Earl's reveiws is that the HR20 is even less like a Tivo than the 622, and not as nice as either. Any comments based on REAL info?

Looks like the promised HR10 sofware upgrade has fizzled, so it's unlikely that there is any Tivo future for either D* or E*. Once D* brings more MPEG4 online, is it going to be D* and the HR20, or E* and the 622? Note that some of us don't have cable or FIOS as an option (like me).

By the way, just to poke the dog, after two months of E* and the 622, I have absolutely no regrets. The 622 has worked flawlessley, and the E* PQ and programming is way ahead of D*. Their customer serivce is better, too! Still have my HR10; maybe I can use it for a coffe pot warmer or something.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

frankygamer said:


> Your still assuming that 1 OTA tuner is the end of the world and that alone makes the VIP crap. It is a negative but it is easily worked around by getting two like myself, waiting and getting a Series 3 to complement the VIP622, or getting a Samsung or LG DVR. That's assuming OTA is even important to the buyer! We're talking _SATELLITE_ companies here aren't we..


I never said it was crap. It's a bummer that it doesn't have two ATSC tuners. It's a bummer that the HR20 has it's OTA tuners DISABLED.

For someone who needs dual ATSC tuners, the HR10 is the only option right now.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

Well, actually, for anyone that wants an HD DVR from D*, the HR10 is the ONLY choice for now. Most people can't get an HR20 yet. I have it on good authority that Earl had to have 'DirecTv' tatooed on his forehead to get one.

Seriously, I can't imagine any reason the OTA tuners won't be active by the time the HR20 really rolls out, unless they have some technical problem. If that's the case, I wouldn't think they would run the risk of a PR disaster (or at least, PR problem) by announcing availability. Still, it is a little strange.


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

MarcusInMD said:


> Tivo winning this lawsuit is bad for everyone. It will force higher prices for the devices that we all love in the long run. I find it quite amusing that tivo is trying to stay alive as a company by suing and not innovating. 5 years down the road, tivo might be gone as a company but the corporate landscape it leaves in its wake might be riddled with with the corpses of innovative products by other companies that were put to death by their selfish greed.


Greed??? Selfish??? If it were _your_ intellectual property that was being stolen, you might feel differently. The courts have held that this is what Echostar did.

If you want innovation to stop, then let everyone steal everyone else's intellectual property with no legal consequences.

I take it you don't think Charlie is greedy? His business practices have been very "controversial" to put it mildly.

You need to go back to school and learn a little about what drives innovation in a free enterprise economy.


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