# TiVo HD Platform Wild Spec Thread



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Like we need another thread. 

Well, this one is specifically to consolidate what we know and will learn about the TiVo HD design and its potential capabilities, which seem to be significant over the S3, and to speculate from there. 

Things like:

the transcoder chip 2115
the 3rd Sata connection
the analog input traces
etc.​
There will necessarily be lots of dreaming and fantasizing, but let's also have a dose of practicality like cost and strategic business issues also.



> Partial Tivo HD Component List (TCD652160) - July 24
> - Broadcom BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders
> - 256MB DDR400 SDRAM (4x NANYA NT5DS32M16BS-5U), for BCM7401
> - 2x ATI Theater 314 based tuners
> ...


_________________________________________________________

The Transcoder Chip

*ViXS 2115*

No specs on it, but it may be between the 2111  (product sheet) and 2121 (product sheet)

Technology and Applications Links

Series 2100 Overview

Based on comments from TiVoPony, it is *unlikely * the TiVo version of the ViXS chip has any *transcoding * ability.
_________________________________________________________

The MPU & MPEG Decoder/Encoder (?)

Broadcom 7401

Broadcom Cable Solutions

The 7401 is listed as having an "*HD analog encoder with simultaneous SD outputs*" and "*a dual stream analog video encoder*..."

The 7401 is listed as 450DMIPS. The 7400 version is listed at 1000 DMIPS and shows a connection to a DVD-R/W drive.

___________________________________________________________

Encoders (?)

2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs

Can handle Analog RGB/YPbPr Component Video Input Including 480p/576p/
(note other chips models can handle 720p/1080i also)

http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/literature/9397/75015903.pdf

___________________________________________________________

Xilinx Spartan-? FPGA

Weak peculation: 
two-way signaling; DOCSIS;
MOCA

____________________________________________________________

Details of content flow through the hardware by bkdtv

____________________________________________________________

Helpful sources: Megazone, bkdtv


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## doormat (Sep 15, 2004)

Analog inputs: A TiVo box for satellite a la S2DT, 1080i component inputs. 

I've already seen other ideas, 3rd sata port for HD-DVD/Bluray (managed copy), burner, etc.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think a TiVo with built in HD-DVD is probably the most likely scenario. The TiVo/Toshiba partnership has already produced a couple of S2/DVD combo units (one player, one recorder), seems plausible that the two might hook up again for a S3/HD-DVD unit. The big question would be whether the unit would allow playback only, or if it would also record HD-DVDs. I think the transcoder chip and hidden inputs would indicate that it would allow recording of HD-DVDs. However Cable Labs might not allow that, so we'll have to wait and see. (don't expect to hear anything else before CES 2008)

Dan


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

The Broadcom 7401 lists letterbox detection as a feature. If that refers to something like automatically zooming LB material, I would love that. Its a nuisance dealing with 4x3 letterbox.

2100 Series lists MSDRM and Real DRM support. Hopefully a sign of protected WMV content availability - including HD!!!  :up:


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

That transcoder chip is really interesting. Believe it or not some people (like me) may be seriously considering this box despite the lack of an HD display. In fact, even those with an HD display in their primary location may want something like this for their bedroom (where they may still have a SD display). Looks like that chip is capable of a realtime HD->SD conversion, which would save disc space for anyone not interested in HD but who want to use ATSC to get their locals. And of course it would in theory allow multiroom viewing with a Series2, even with an HD recording.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

_Repost from this morning..._

Official TivoHD Specifications (TCD652160)
 Broadcom BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders
 256MB DDR400 SDRAM (4x NANYA NT5DS32M16BS-5U)
 160GB Western Digital WD1600AVBS SATA hard drive
 2x ATI Theater 314 QAM/VSB demodulators (for tuners)
 2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs
 1x VIXS XCode 2115 IC w/ dedicated 32MB DDR400 SDRAM (2x NANYA NT5DS8M16FS-5T)
 CableCard interface
 [email protected] encoders

 Silicon Image SiI5723 Dual SATA controller
 Xilinx Spartan-3 XC3S200 FPGA
 10/100Mbps Ethernet
 Standard Tivo remote
 $299 MSRP

TivoHD Advantages
 MSRP is $500 less ($299 vs $799) thanks to newer, more integrated components
 TivoHD has ~7% faster CPU (450 MIPS vs 420 MIPS)
 TivoHD has twice the usable system memory (256MB vs 128MB)
 Supports MCARDs out of the box.
 Consumes less power.

TivoHD Disadvantages
 TTG and MRV throughput is less than Tivo Series3 (as of 9.2 software).
 The "plug and play" eSATA drive expansion only works with "Tivo Verified" eSATA drives, while the Tivo Series3 works with any eSATA drive.
 Smaller hard drive (160GB vs 250GB).
 No THX certification.
 No piano black enclosure with OLED display.
 No slick, learning remote (sold separately for $50).
 No bundled HDMI cable.
 Drivers for new components potentially less mature / optimized.
 Potentially slower disk I/O, which may hurt responsiveness.
The Broadcom BCM7401 in the TivoHD has a single 1.5Gbps SATA channel that is "split" for the internal SATA and eSATA connections using the Silicon Image SiI5723. In contrast, the BCM7038 in the Series3 had a dual-channel SATA controller, so no "splitting" was required. This may negatively impact disk I/O when both internal and eSATA drives are used, and Tivo responsiveness is highly dependent on disk I/O. The SiI5723 does support several RAID modes that could potentially improve random I/O.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ping said:


> That transcoder chip is really interesting. Believe it or not some people (like me) may be seriously considering this box despite the lack of an HD display. In fact, even those with an HD display in their primary location may want something like this for their bedroom (where they may still have a SD display). Looks like that chip is capable of a realtime HD->SD conversion, which would save disc space for anyone not interested in HD but who want to use ATSC to get their locals. And of course it would in theory allow multiroom viewing with a Series2, even with an HD recording.


How 'bout plugging your iZuneZen into the usb port and taking your shows with you in minutes @8X realtime transcode? 

Or seconds if the transcodes are pre-staged. :up:


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I just thought of another possible use for the transcoder chip... MRV from S3 to S2 units! With this chip it would be possible to transcode from HD to SD on the fly, thus allowing MRV transfers of HD programs to non-HD capable TiVos. This would make the whole process of MRV completely seamless regardless of which TiVo combination you have.

It could also be used to transcode HD to SD on the fly for TTG, thus eliminating the need for Cable Labs approval. I think most people use TTG for playback of programs on laptops or portable devices anyway, and HD quality is not really necessary in those situations. 

Dan


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I just thought of another possible use for the transcoder chip... MRV from S3 to S2 units! With this chip it would be possible to transcode from HD to SD on the fly, thus allowing MRV transfers of HD programs to non-HD capable TiVos. This would make the whole process of MRV completely seamless regardless of which TiVo combination you have.
> 
> It could also be used to transcode HD to SD on the fly for TTG, thus eliminating the need for Cable Labs approval. I think most people use TTG for playback of programs on laptops or portable devices anyway, and HD quality is not really necessary in those situations.


This is what some others speculated in the "New Tivo Coming" thread. Of course, then...how will the Series3 accomplish that feat?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It wont! When you attempt to access an HD recording on a S3 from a S2 it will simply have a red cross circle, like what you get now when a program is copy protected.

Although if you have a S3 and a TiVo HD then it might be possible to transfer from S3 to TiVo HD, then from TiVo HD to S2 or PC.

Dan


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Although if you have a S3 and a TiVo HD then it might be possible to transfer from S3 to TiVo HD, then from TiVo HD to S2 or PC.


Yeah, I had this crazy thought last night about the TiVo HD being used as a *transcode hub*.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm betting that this is one of the intended uses for the transcoder chip. Whether or not it ever actually gets used that way is another story, but I bet that was the idea behind throwing it in there.

Dan


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

I just looked at the excellent, high-resolution PCB shots posted by Megazone.

The two NANYA 16MB DDR400 parts aren't connected to the Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs at all. That memory is used exclusively by the VIXS XCode 2115 IC. Moreover, the Broadcom BCM7401 clearly has access to the full 256Mb DDR400 -- twice as much memory as the Series3.

It's looking more and more like the old Series3 is the real "Lite" version.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> It's looking more and more like the old Series3 is the real "Lite" version.


Shhhhhh.... TiVo wouldn't want anyone to know that just yet. 

Are you sure the memory is double what Megazone thinks it is?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> Shhhhhh.... TiVo wouldn't want anyone to know that just yet.
> 
> Are you sure the memory is double what Megazone thinks it is?


Yes.

There are four 32M16 parts. Anyone can tell you that is 32x16=512 Mbit. Four of those gives you 2048 Mbits, or 256 Megabytes. If you don't trust your multiplication skills, you can check NANYA's site.

http://www.nanya.com/PageEdition3.aspx?Menu_ID=57&def=210&lan=en-us

Scroll down to the bottom and find the NT5DS32M16BS shown in Megazone's picture.

Before I saw that I thought the 256MB might be divided in half, but the motherboard traces clearly show that the full amount is linked to the BCM7401 CPU.


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## Bill McNeal (May 31, 2002)

Does anyone know if there is hardware in place in the THD for two-way communication in the future? My understanding is that the S3 does not.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Yeah, I think bkdtv is right. I blame sleep-dep and juggling a lot of stuff during the review for mis-understanding the part numbers.

Here's another thought on the XCode chip - built in place-shifting. (aka Slingbox)


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

megazone said:


> Here's another thought on the XCode chip - built in place-shifting. (aka Slingbox)





> 3 D1 or 1 HD MPEG 1/2/4 transcodes up to 8X real-time


If that product spec means it can do 3 SD transcodes simultaneously, it may be juggling a lot.

I am interested in your unified platform theory but I need to understand how we get from what's on this TiVo HD down to the price space of an S2, and compare to further reducing the S2 design in cost.



bkdtv said:


> TivoHD has ~7% faster CPU (450 MIPS vs 420 MIPS)
> TivoHD has twice the system memory (256MB vs 128MB)


That sounds likely to give far more than 7% overall performance boost. Maybe some of those really slow S3 operations stimulated the extra memory too.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Here's something interesting:



> Encoders
> 
> 2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs
> 
> ...


So there are actually chips that could handle HD component in? Wonder about cost.

The encoders were listed as sampling on the data sheet, so they are pretty new I guess.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> Here's something interesting:
> 
> So there are actually chips that could handle HD component in? Wonder about cost.
> 
> The encoders were listed as sampling on the data sheet, so they are pretty new I guess.


Yes.

That said, the Tivo has no means to actually record high-definition analog signals. It must downconvert (transcode) the signal to a maximum of 720x576p, and 720x480p is more likely.



HDTivo said:


> bfdtv said:
> 
> 
> > TivoHD has ~7% faster CPU (450 MIPS vs 420 MIPS)
> ...


Keep in mind that we don't know anything about the CPU requirements of the new parts in the TivoHD. For all we know, the drivers for the ATI Theater 314s and the VIXS XCode may require more CPU and/or memory.

From the initial reviews of the TivoHD, it doesn't sound like there is any noticeable performance improvement over the Series3 with the current software.


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## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

From the initial reviews, performance is significantly worse, although that's probably 8.1 vs 8.3 software.

Where did the rumor start that SD content could be freely shared regardless of the ccx code?


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

rodalpho said:


> From the initial reviews, performance is significantly worse, although that's probably 8.1 vs 8.3 software.


Where is this 'significantly worse' coming from? I have the TiVo HD sitting next to a Series3 and a Pioneer DVR-810H, and a Toshiba RS-TX20 upstairs.

The TiVo HD blows the doors off the Toshiba, no question.

The S3 is a bit faster, but in normal use I can't say it is *significantly* faster.

And with the Pioneer, one of the fastest S2 platforms, it seems fairly comparable to the TiVo HD over all. I think each one has an edge in different areas.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

SATA controller. A commenter on TiVoLovers spotted a chip hiding under the SATA cables which appears to be a Silicon Image SiI5723 storage processor.

I notice something interesting - there are traces from the BCM7401, which has a SATA interface, to the unpopulated SATA header. Then those *same* connections continue to the 5723. Could that header be a left-over debug connection? They could've populated it during development to test the 7401's SATA connection and monitor the signals. Maybe that's the connection to the 5723, and then that chip provides the two connections. The unpopulated header could be a red herring.


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## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

The cnet review and a couple others mentioned that it had the old 8.0 slowly refreshing menus. I found them incredibly annoying, way back when. Is that not the case?


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## scustin (May 26, 2007)

Any thoughts on what's coming next?

There's a $150 rebate to clear out the remaining stocks of S2.

I assume there will shortly be a rebate to get rid of remaining S3s.

Apparently informed speculation has the "official" eSATA drive coming out before Christmas.

It would seem to make sense to add a second model to the TiVo HD line with a larger hard disc (500gb?) and maybe a few of the other bells and whistles missing in the HD (THX, lighted remote). I would be willing to pay an extra $100-$150 for the extra capacity. (HD program files are a lot bigger than SD and think it's silly to have to throw away a working drive to increase capacity.)

It would probably add an additional $100-$200 TiVo to add more tuners and support for satellite boxes to allow multiple sets to tap into a central media server.

There are two USB ports but the only known use is for a single wireless network adapter. Maybe the other could be used for a keyboard and mouse and implement a web browser. Keying in program names from the remote is a pain. If content companies are cooperative, TiVo could become a gateway to the expanding world of web-distributed programming. Most people don't want to watch TV on their PC.

A lot of really nifty things are constrained by restrictions imposed by copyright owners. If TiVo can demonstrate bulletproof DRM they might be given access to content not "regular" media players. TiVo is, after all, already a "closed" system. TiVo + Netflix. Now that would be awesome . . .


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## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

I expect the S3 will be unavailable very shortly. It has no reason to exist. I wouldn't be surprised if they release a HD SKU with a 500GB internal drive selling for $500.

Longer term, when economy of scale and component price drops kick in and HDTV penetration is higher, those traces on the HD could be filled with encoder chips, the price dropped to $200 with rebate, and the old S2 and DT models could be retired also.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> Yes.
> 
> That said, the Tivo has no means to actually record high-definition analog signals. It must downconvert (transcode) the signal to a maximum of 720x576p, and 720x480p is more likely.


I'm a bit lost. Which chips are doing the mpeg compression of the analog video signals?

Edit:

I also found this about the 7401:

http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB04-R.pdf which says it has an HD analog video encoder.

I can't copy from the pdf, but the product page also says



> HD analog video encoder with simultaneous SD outputs such as NTSC-M, NTSC-J, PAL-BDGHIN, PAL-M and PAL-Nc


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

megazone said:


> SATA controller. A commenter on TiVoLovers spotted a chip hiding under the SATA cables which appears to be a Silicon Image SiI5723 storage processor.
> 
> I notice something interesting - there are traces from the BCM7401, which has a SATA interface, to the unpopulated SATA header. Then those *same* connections continue to the 5723. Could that header be a left-over debug connection? They could've populated it during development to test the 7401's SATA connection and monitor the signals. Maybe that's the connection to the 5723, and then that chip provides the two connections. The unpopulated header could be a red herring.


Sounds right.

The 7401 only provides one eSATA connection, so that appears to be the link to the SiI5723.



HDTiVo said:


> I'm a bit lost. Which chips are doing the mpeg compression of the analog video signals?


The VIXS XCode does the encoding / transcoding of the uncompressed digital bitstream to MPEG-2 or MPEG-4. That uncompressed digital bitstream is supplied by either the Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL or ATI depending on the source. As far as which part supplies the VIXS XCode with the uncompressed digital bitstream encoded from analog channels input via coax...I am not entirely certain, but after looking at the specs again, the Philips/NXT is the more probable candidate.

The Broadcom BCM7401 does not do MPEG-2 encoding. As far as I can tell, it won't even accept an analog input. It does do digital -> analog conversion to produce the output for the component, s-video, composite, etc connections on the TivoHD.


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## deltatahoe (Jul 25, 2007)

scustin said:


> Apparently informed speculation has the "official" eSATA drive coming out before Christmas.


first off, i'm a noob here....as a noob, i realize i should probably go read 500 posts, and report back with a more refined line of questioning. however, my question is a relatively simple one, so i figured i would jump right in with my noob-licious question:

-the tivo website indicates that "expandable storage" is "coming late 2007"; any speculation on what this will look like?

for example, will it likely be a tivo-specific hard drive to expand storage, or is it possible that you will be able to use just use any old external hard drive? any reason to wait until late 2007 to purchase the tivoHD when "expandable storage" becomes available?

any other thoughts or things i'm missing here?

deltatahoe

ps, if this question has been answered 100 times elsewhere, you can just respond with something like this:


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> The VIXS XCode does the encoding / transcoding of the uncompressed digital bitstream to MPEG-2 or MPEG-4. That uncompressed digital bitstream is supplied by either the Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL or ATI depending on the source. As far as which part supplies the VIXS XCode with the uncompressed digital bitstream encoded from analog channels input via coax...I am not entirely certain, but after looking at the specs again, the Philips/NXT is the more probable candidate.


Could you break this down for me according to source (ATSC/NTSC/Coax (Analog vs Digital)); A/D converter (in case of analog source); MPEG encoder (in case of analog source) so I can understand and then summarize where each thing comes from and how it flows eventually to the hard drive?



Megazone said:


> I notice something interesting - there are traces from the BCM7401, which has a SATA interface


The 7401 is listed as 450DMIPS. The 7400 version is listed at 1000 DMIPS and shows a connection to a DVD R/W drive in addition to the SATA interface.

The 7400 has dual ITU-R-656 inputs, the 7401 a single.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

rodalpho said:


> The cnet review and a couple others mentioned that it had the old 8.0 slowly refreshing menus. I found them incredibly annoying, way back when. Is that not the case?


 Not that I've noticed. On a scale of 1-5, I'd say it is about a 4, 3 at worst depending. (5 being fastest.) Whereas the S3 is more like a 4.5, varying between 4 and 5 depending.

It probably varies too, as we've seen with other units where some people report slow menus while others don't see it.


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## ticktockman (Jul 20, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> Could you break this down for me according to source (ATSC/NTSC/Coax (Analog vs Digital)); A/D converter (in case of analog source); MPEG encoder (in case of analog source) so I can understand and then summarize where each thing comes from and how it flows eventually to the hard drive?


What I know:

ATI314 is a digital demod, so it is doing your QAM/ATSC/Cablecard Out of band demodulation (analog in, digital bit stream out). This stuff is already MPEG. No encoding needed.

Under that metal can there must be analog tuners (analog in, NTSC out). Either there are separate tuners for digital, or the same tuners can send their info down to digital or analog parts. Someone who knows more about tuners? Anyone have pics under the metal can lid?

NXP part does NTSC to digitized analog video

What I guess:

Vixs takes digitized analog and MPEG encodes it. Possibly can do lots of other stuff, I haven't seen the spec, just other people's descriptions.

FPGA? Can anyone tell what it is connected to? The pictures have the card mechanism blocking a lot of it. It is pretty near the Vixs part. Maybe it assists with transcoding? Tivo hasn't "rolled their own" for a while, though. Seems strange.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

megazone said:


> SATA controller. A commenter on TiVoLovers spotted a chip hiding under the SATA cables which appears to be a Silicon Image SiI5723 storage processor.


I'm surprised that the SiI5723 chip is used. It can do hardware virtualization, which doesn't seem like what TiVo needs. If TiVo can really use it as a partial RAID1 set (with an external drive) to reduce system downtime, that would be very interesting. If it's just used as a simple port multiplier, the best SiI5723 features are wasted.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Any reason this device could/could not run a version of the ComcastTiVo OS (OCAP-lite)?


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

deltatahoe said:


> first off, i'm a noob here....as a noob, i realize i should probably go read 500 posts, and report back with a more refined line of questioning. however, my question is a relatively simple one, so i figured i would jump right in with my noob-licious question:
> 
> -the tivo website indicates that "expandable storage" is "coming late 2007"; any speculation on what this will look like?
> 
> ...


STFU n00B! 

Seriously, there isn't any reason to wait on the THD purchase, the boxes aren't going to be any different. The "expandable storage" will just be an external hard drive that you plug into the esata port and go with. Go read the stickied "S3 esata" thread at the top of the forum if you're interested in rolling your own solution before this comes out, as it really isn't that hard.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

SullyND said:


> Any reason this device could/could not run a version of the ComcastTiVo OS (OCAP-lite)?


If the hardware doesn't have the same upstream communication capability as the comcast box for PPV, why would you want to?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

c3 said:


> I'm surprised that the SiI5723 chip is used. It can do hardware virtualization, which doesn't seem like what TiVo needs. If TiVo can really use it as a partial RAID1 set (with an external drive) to reduce system downtime, that would be very interesting. If it's just used as a simple port multiplier, the best SiI5723 features are wasted.


Tivo need a "port multiplier" of some kind since the BCM7401 only supports a single SATA channel on its own. That's the one area where the BCM7401 is a downgrade over the BCM7038 -- the BCM7038 in the Tivo Series3 had a dual-channel SATA controller.

In the past, Tivo responsiveness was always highly dependent on disk I/O, so splitting the single 1.5Gbps channel into two separate channels doesn't sound like a good thing. Presumably, things are just going to get worse when they enable the second eSATA drive.

If Tivo does implement the SAFE33 or SAFE50 RAID modes with eSATA support, it will be interesting to see what impact that has on performance and responsiveness. RAID can improve random I/O in some circumstances.



HDTiVo said:


> Could you break this down for me according to source (ATSC/NTSC/Coax (Analog vs Digital)); A/D converter (in case of analog source); MPEG encoder (in case of analog source) so I can understand and then summarize where each thing comes from and how it flows eventually to the hard drive?
> NTSC tuner ->


NTSC Recording
 Diplexor to combine cable and off-air inputs into single coax ->
 Coax ->
 Coax Splitter ->
 Tuner 1 ->
 Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL w/ NTSC decoder decodes analog channels and digitizes output ->
 Digital output sent to VIXS XCode 2115 ->
 VIXS XCode encodes video into MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 ->
 MPEG-2/MPEG-4 bitstream sent from VIXS XCode to Broadcom BCM7401 CPU ->
 Broadcom BCM7401 CPU sends MPEG-2/MPEG-4 bitstream to integrated SATA controller ->
 Broadcom BCM7401 SATA controller sends datastream to Silicon Image SiI5723 SATA port multiplier ->
 Silicon Image SiI5723 saves datastream to hard drive.

Digital SD/HD Recording
 Diplexor to combine cable and off-air inputs into single coax ->
 Coax ->
 Coax Splitter ->
 Tuner 1 ->
 ATI Theater 314 demodulates QAM and VSB output to separate and output original MPEG-2 bitstream ->
 Broadcom BCM7401 CPU sends MPEG-2/MPEG-4 bitstream to integrated SATA controller ->
 Broadcom BCM7401 SATA controller sends datastream to Silicon Image SiI5723 SATA port multiplier ->
 Silicon Image SiI5723 saves datastream to hard drive

The same repeats for tuner 2 using the other pair of chips. When playing a recording, it works like this:

DVR Playback
 Broadcom BCM7401 SATA controller requests data ->
 Silicon Image SiI5723 SATA port multipler requests data
 Hard drive retrieves data ->
 Broadcom BCM7401 decodes MPEG stream for output to TV

MRV Playback to Tivo Series2 (future software)
 Broadcom BCM7401 SATA controller requests data ->
 Silicon Image SiI5723 SATA port multipler requests data ->
 Hard drive retrieves data ->
 Broadcom BCM7401 sends MPEG-2 bitstream to VIXS XCode 2115 ->
 VIXS XCode 2115 transcodes 480i/480p/720p/1080i MPEG-2 bitstream to compatible (i.e. 720x480) MPEG-2 bitstream ->
 New compatible (i.e. 720x480) MPEG-2 bitstream sent back to Broadcom BCM7401 CPU
 Broadcom BCM7401 CPU applies and encryption and sends data to built-in 10/100Mbps ethernet controller

For future Tivos with composite, s-video, and component inputs:

Analog Input (future Tivo)
 Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL digitizes 480i/480p analog input ->
 Digital output sent to VIXS XCode 2115 ->
 VIXS XCode encodes video into MPEG-2/MPEG-4 @ up to 720x480p ->
 MPEG-2/MPEG-4 bitstream sent from VIXS XCode to Broadcom BCM7401 CPU ->
 Broadcom BCM7401 CPU sends MPEG-2/MPEG-4 datastream to integrated SATA controller ->
 Broadcom BCM7401 SATA controller sends datastream to Silicon Image SiI5723 SATA port multiplier ->
 Silicon Image SiI5723 saves datastream to hard drive.



HDTiVo said:


> The 7401 is listed as 450DMIPS. The 7400 version is listed at 1000 DMIPS and shows a connection to a DVD R/W drive in addition to the SATA interface.
> 
> The 7400 has dual ITU-R-656 inputs, the 7401 a single.


The BCM7038 in the Tivo Series3 was previously announced at 420MIPS.

The BCM7400 is Broadcom's high-end DVR solution. The BCM7401 is the low-cost solution with comparable performance to the chip in the Series3. It sacrifices the faster CPU, superior memory controller, secondary AVC/MPEG-2/VC-1 decoder (for true PIP), the dual-channel SATA-2 controller, and an extra ITU-R-656 input.

Tivo evidently choose to use the BCM7401 + SiI5723 combo rather than spending ~$15 more on the 65nm BCM7400 with dual-channel, SATA2 3.0Gbps and a much faster CPU. The 65nm version of the BCM7400 just recently became available, so it is possible that it was not an option during Tivo's design phase. The old 90nm version was massive and dissipated significantly more heat.

Does anyone know whether the Tivo Series3 uses the Broadcom's integrated dual-channel SATA controller or a separate SATA controller?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> The BCM7038 in the Tivo Series3 was previously announced at 420MIPS.
> 
> The BCM7400 is Broadcom's high-end DVR solution. The BCM7401 is the low-cost solution with comparable performance to the chip in the Series3. It sacrifices the faster CPU, superior memory controller, secondary AVC/MPEG-2/VC-1 decoder (for true PIP), the dual-channel SATA-2 controller, and an extra ITU-R-656 input.
> 
> ...


In another thread you mentioned that the 7401 was essentially a combination of the 7038 and another model. What was the other model?

If BOM is $15 extra, it gets tempting to speculate on a model next year that includes a DVD burner that would make SD DVDs out of both HD and SD programs (as/when permitted by copyright. :down: )


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> In another thread you mentioned that the 7401 was essentially a combination of the 7038 and another model. What was the other model?


BCM7411



> If BOM is $15 extra, it gets tempting to speculate on a model next year that includes a DVD burner that would make SD DVDs out of both HD and SD programs (as/when permitted by copyright. :down: )


Tivo cannot support eSATA storage and a DVD (or Blu-ray) recorder with the BCM7401.

I don't know what the relative die sizes are of those two chips. I doubt if the BCM7400 is drop-in replacement for the BCM7401, but that is possible. If those chips are pin-compatible, then the BCM7400 would give Tivo a second SATA channel to use with the third SATA header on the motherboard for a second hard drive, DVD recorder, or Blu-ray recorder. The first SATA channel would still run to the Silicon Image SiI5723, just as it does now.

The Broadcom BCM7401 in the TivoHD cannot support Blu-ray profile 1.1, required on all Blu-ray players after October 31. The BCM7400 does. If Tivo wants to add a Blu-ray recorder with Blu-ray playback on a future product, they'll have to use the BCM7400.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> For future Tivos with composite, s-video, and component inputs:
> 
> Analog Input (future Tivo)
> Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL digitizes 480i/480p/720p/1080i analog input ->
> ...


 so are you saying that as it stands now the TiVo has the hardware and most likely the firmware to take a component output from a DBS or cable box and record it to the drive in a playbale format? (excluding the input on the TiVo itself of ocurse)



> The BCM7400 is Broadcom's high-end DVR solution. The BCM7401 is the low-cost solution with comparable performance to the chip in the Series3. It sacrifices the faster CPU, superior memory controller, secondary AVC/MPEG-2/VC-1 decoder (for true PIP), the dual-channel SATA-2 controller, and an extra ITU-R-656 input.


One of the features I alwasy wanted to see was HME able to display overtop of the current video for something like fantasy sports stats or weather alerts or caller id, etc.. Sounds like cost concerns ditched the hardware that could be a part of such a feature


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

deltatahoe said:


> -the tivo website indicates that "expandable storage" is "coming late 2007"; any speculation on what this will look like?


not really speculation but straight from jim denny a TiVo rep in one of the many interviews he did to talk up the release.

he stated it would be a eSata enclosure with striped raid inside for better reliability. I am looking forward to that and would for now just increase the size of the hard drive in the TiVo HD if/when I get one


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so are you saying that as it stands now the TiVo has the hardware and most likely the firmware to take a component output from a DBS or cable box and record it to the drive in a playbale format? (excluding the input on the TiVo itself of ocurse)


I doubt it has the firmware, but yes it has the hardware.



> One of the features I alwasy wanted to see was HME able to display overtop of the current video for something like fantasy sports stats or weather alerts or caller id, etc.. Sounds like cost concerns ditched the hardware that could be a part of such a feature


The TivoHD can still overlay all sorts of menus and graphics. It just can't decode two video streams at once.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

bktv:

The above is awesome, thanks!

I've put the link to the post in the OP.

Notes:



> For digitally modulated input signals (QAM or 8VSB), Theater 314 outputs a parallel or serial MPEG compliant transport stream
> http://ati.amd.com/products/theater314/index.html


Not sure the ViXS handles two SD encodes at once (?)

Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL does not take HD compnent in, but several other models do.
http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/literature/9397/75015903.pdf

The ATI 314 does not pass analog video transmissions to the Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL, that split happens earlier in the chain (?)



> MRV Playback to Tivo Series2 (future software)
> 
> VIXS XCode 2115 transcodes 480i/480p/720p/1080i MPEG-2 bitstream to compatible (i.e. 720x480) MPEG-2 bitstream


... Presumably as necessary depending on original recording format (?)


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> he stated it would be a eSata enclosure with striped raid inside for better reliability. I am looking forward to that and would for now just increase the size of the hard drive in the TiVo HD if/when I get one


Striped RAID doesn't increase reliability, it's done to improve performance. Mirrored RAID give you better reliability. How many drives will be in this enclosure? 4 500 GB drives would give you a terabyte of striped, redundant storage (RAID 0+1), but would cost more than the TiVo itself.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

vman41 said:


> Striped RAID doesn't increase reliability,.


Versus just a drive with no raid at all I meant. Yes it is not mirrored raid and a hard rive failure is still a failure but bad sectors can be dealt with better and that is the reliability I was referring too.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so are you saying that as it stands now the TiVo has the hardware and most likely the firmware to take a component output from a DBS or cable box and record it to the drive in a playbale format? (excluding the input on the TiVo itself of ocurse)


I don't think Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL model handles component HD in; see notes I made above.


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## JamieP (Aug 3, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Versus just a drive with no raid at all I meant. Yes it is not mirrored raid and a hard rive failure is still a failure but bad sectors can be dealt with better and that is the reliability I was referring too.


A striped (RAID0) volume has (less than) half the MTBF of a single drive. Striping (without parity) reduces reliability over a bare single drive. Striping with parity (RAID3 or 5) is another matter. Perhaps that is what you/he meant.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL does not take HD compnent in, but several other models do.
> http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/literature/9397/75015903.pdf


You're right. When I looked at that last night, I looked at the wrong field.



> The ATI 314 does not pass analog video transmissions to the Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL, that split happens earlier in the chain (?)


The ATI 314 does not have an NTSC decoder, so it cannot produce digital output from an analog video signal.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JamieP said:


> A striped (RAID0) volume has (less than) half the MTBF of a single drive. Striping (without parity) reduces reliability over a bare single drive. Striping with parity (RAID3 or 5) is another matter. Perhaps that is what you/he meant.


yes, I had just not gone and studied the raid specs that I have not looked at in a year or more 

PS - I guess this all came out of the lame "raid" feature in Windows XP that does not do parity unless you have the hardware in palce for it anyway


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> You're right. When I looked at that last night, I looked at the wrong field.
> 
> The ATI 314 does not have an NTSC decoder, so it cannot produce digital output from an analog video signal.


so this means that the TiVo HD as is could not record HD from a component or HDMI gived the input is added?


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## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

I'm sure he didn't actually mean it would be striped, because that would be crazy. 

Actually, since the internal disk has no redundancy at all, I see no reason why the eSATA addon drive would be any different.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so this means that the TiVo HD as is could not record HD from a component or HDMI gived the input is added?


That's correct. The most the SAA7138 in the TivoHD can accept is component 480p.

However, Tivo could replace the SAA7138 with the SAA7137 to add 720p/1080i component input support. Those parts are not pin-compatible, however.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Updated OP with the following:

Based on comments from TiVoPony, it is *unlikely * the TiVo version of the ViXS chip has any *transcoding * ability.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

I know we've talked about possible use of the TiVo HD design for other models...

On the back panel of the TiVo HD, looking from inside, there are several unused holes in the sheet metal. The holes are of two sizes, large looks like for an RCA plug, small like for a mini plug like IR blaster.

There is one large hole above the HDMI port.

Next to Ethernet, there is a column of two small holes.

Next to that is a column of three large holes. midway between the top two holes, and just to their side, is a very small hole.

Finally, before the eSata, there is another single large hole.

These holes are all fully covered by the sticker that affixes to the outside of the back panel. But they are physically there for some reason.

From a perspective two plus months further down the road, what might this be about?

Perhaps a combo DT/TiVo HD unit that takes an input from a cable box. But, while there are enough holes for s-video and composite w/RCA audio, I don't see enough for component w/audio.

Perhaps another set of composite/s/audio outputs...but their position away from the other outputs suggests otherwise, ie. inputs.

-------

Looking back at the Philips A/V decoder, it does not take an HD component input, thus pehaps limiting it to the DT style use of a single SD (S or Composite) input from a cable box.

However, there are other chips in the same family that do handle HD component in. Maybe not such a big leap to something more then?

I recall that one of the slingboxes takes an HD component in and encodes at something like 640x480. *Could a true consumer level HD component source device be not so far away?*


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