# TiVo's CEO Tom Rogers says DirecTV under Liberty Media "positive"



## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

Some official hope that DirecTV's new owners will be selling TiVo again.

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070604/3/32w21.html

Tuesday June 5, 4:14 AM

TiVo sees better relationship with DirecTV under Liberty

NEW YORK, June 4 (Reuters) - TiVo Inc. said on Monday it sees an improved relationship with DirecTV Group after the satellite television provider is taken over by media mogul John Malone's Liberty Media Corp. 
TiVo Chief Executive Tom Rogers said the outcome would be "positive" once the $11 billion exchange of cash and assets between Malone and Rupert Murdoch's News Corp is completed. News Corp currently owns a controlling stake in DirecTV and the deal to exchange its stake and other assets is expected to close later this year.

DirecTV said in Aug. 2005 that it would stop marketing TiVo digital video recorders to its customers focusing on boxes made by its News Corp sister company NDS.

Rogers was speaking at a Deutsche Bank investor conference.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Only time will tell.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

This is great news. Some new blood in DirectTV. Hopefully Rogers is right.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

mtchamp said:


> Some official hope that DirecTV's new owners will be selling TiVo again.
> 
> http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070604/3/32w21.html
> 
> ...


I'm hoping Malone and Rogers had some nice chats recently ... and that they lead to something. I would love to have TiVo integrated into MPEG4 DirecTV receivers!


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Can't believe no one posted this yet...I thought you'd all be jumping for joy.

Hopefully this means a new MPEG-4 Tivo sometime in the future (probably at least a year out though).

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/artic...6-04_22-43-45_N04203914&type=comktNews&rpc=44


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

I guess you missed this. 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=354424

Edit: In case anyone gets confused, the two threads were merged.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Yup....knew you guys wouldn't have missed that one....sorry, didn't see it


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

No problem. 

Let's hope this leads to good things.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

And this is why I really want the two DirecTV forums here at TCF to be merged!


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## doncoolio (Jul 9, 2006)

drew2k said:


> And this is why I really want the two DirecTV forums here at TCF to be merged!


Or at least label the other one STANDARD DEFINITION!


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## TimeTraveler (Jun 2, 2007)

This is the best news I've heard in a while! I can't stand the R15 (DVR without TiVo).


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Having both styles would be good but I would actually hope that Tivo would update a few things that are better done on the HR20 and integrate them. To a large extent, the base TiVo usage has been stagnant.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

doncoolio said:


> Or at least labile the other one STANDARD DEFINITION!


Or even just label it STANDARD DEFINITION.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

drew2k said:


> And this is why I really want the two DirecTV forums here at TCF to be merged!


I'm with you, drew. Let's lobby for that change at least by 2-17-09!!

So I guess this means that my so-called "risky" strategy of hunkering down with 3 expanded HR10s until they die might actually pay off. This new Tivo scenario is the only possible way I would stay with DTV after that. I think I can (hope I can) stretch them for a couple more years, but then if FX/SCIFI/USA go HD before that, I might have to give in to a HR20 for a few months. Yikes!! . I had one for a week, and couldn't heave it off the balcony fast enough.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

I wonder how much Tivo bleeding 100K subs last quarter puts DTV in the driver's seat for a new deal?


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

When the TiVo/Echostar thing is finished, I wonder how much D* and or Comcast would be willing to pay to prevent E* from having a DVR?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

I wonder how much TiVo gaining the upper hand with regards to patent enforcement will make DirecTV think twice about extending their TiVo relationship after the current "no lawsuits between pals" agreement between DirecTV and TiVo ends ...


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> I had one for a week, and couldn't heave it off the balcony fast enough.


That was _you?_


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> ... if FX/SCIFI/USA go HD before that, I might have to give in to a HR20 for a few months. Yikes!! . I had one for a week, and couldn't heave it off the balcony fast enough.


I've had an HR20 since March, and I've been pleasantly surprised with it. It hasn't missed a recording yet for me, and DirecTV has been listening to user feedback and making changes. There are still a few things I don't like about it, but there are a lot of things I do ... #1 being that I will reliably be recording all those new MPEG4 HD channels when they roll out ...

But I wold still love to have an MPEG4 HD-TiVo!


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

I'd rather hear D* say this vs TiVo.....


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

Maybe.... just maybe.... we may see the return of the All in One Directv/Tivo unit


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> this means that my so-called "risky" strategy ... might actually pay off.


How so? DTV's HD roadmap is MPEG-4... on Ka band satellites that no existing tivo can see. At best, there may be a version of the HR20 with tivo software on it, but I highly doubt that unless Hughes is actually making the hardware -- otherwise NDS will never allow it.

Plus the HR10 is very old technology. It's OTA tuner is crap by modern standards. It's HD output capabilities are very primitive -- HD outputs go dark when it switches to HD. It was the **** in it's day, but that day has long passed.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

cramer said:


> How so? DTV's HD roadmap is MPEG-4... on Ka band satellites that no existing tivo can see. At best, there may be a version of the HR20 with tivo software on it, but I highly doubt that unless Hughes is actually making the hardware -- otherwise NDS will never allow it.
> 
> Plus the HR10 is very old technology. It's OTA tuner is crap by modern standards. It's HD output capabilities are very primitive -- HD outputs go dark when it switches to HD. It was the **** in it's day, but that day has long passed.


NDS has no say in the matter as DirecTV manufactures the hardware.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Supposedly the HR20 isn't NDS software anyway.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

dslunceford said:


> I'd rather hear D* say this vs TiVo.....


Until I hear it from Malone, I take this as Rogers talking in front of a group of investors.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Sir_winealot said:


> That was _you?_


Sorry. I thought I gave fair warning. Didn't see your Lexus down there. Send me the bill.


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

Thanks for posting, this is the only forum I read.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

cramer said:


> How so? DTV's HD roadmap is MPEG-4... on Ka band satellites that no existing tivo can see. At best, there may be a version of the HR20 with tivo software on it, but I highly doubt that unless Hughes is actually making the hardware -- otherwise NDS will never allow it...


Thanks for the update, but nothing there is news to me or anyone else.

This might also not be news, but Tivo is a software company that just happens to make hardware, just like Apple is a software company that just happens to make hardware. IOW, the beauty and elegance is in the GUI and manifests in the satisfaction level of the user experience, and the reliability is mostly in the software and partly in how they have control over the hardware, for each of these companies.

That means that 3rd-party hardware powered by Tivo, similar to the ComCast scenario, would still have the same user experience, and depending on degree to how much the system is closed, the reliability should be very much the same (3rd-party Macintosh clones were every bit as uniquely and exceptionally reliable as Apple Macintoshes back in the 90's, before Steve Jobs eventually pulled the plug, BTW).

Primarily what makes Tivo reliable is not the hardware, its the software. Likewise, what makes the HR20 unreilable (and user-hostile) is not the hardware, its again the software. A hardware HR20 powered by Tivo would likely run circles around one powered by NDS or whoever had the balls to sign their name to the current HR20 crapfest.

Bottom line, if something like this happens, it will essentially be a Tivo. And making a MPEG-4 Ka capable box running Tivo is as simple as making a QAM-capable box or running Windows on a Mac, both of which are now also extremely simple to do.

So that is "how so", unless you were referring to how my strategy might pay off, which is I might be able to continue with Tivo and DTV on _ad infinitum_ if DTV allows Tivo once again, which is what the thread is actually about.



cramer said:


> ...Plus the HR10 is very old technology. It's OTA tuner is crap by modern standards. It's HD output capabilities are very primitive -- HD outputs go dark when it switches to HD. It was the **** in it's day, but that day has long passed.


Lets take these exceptionally weak points one by one:

Old technology? The demodulation, storage, expandability, GUI, playback, and output formats (IOW, about 95% of what makes up a PVR) are all still state of the art, nothing really new has emerged for a decade for consumer PVRS from any manufacturer and there is nothing on the horizon that seems to challenge any of that. No "new" PVR seems to have anything significant that it can do that the HR10 hasn't been doing exceptionally well for the last 4 years, and I really don't see much possibility of that changing any time soon.

But then there is one company that is adding a lot of unique and revolutionary minor ancillary features to their new PVRs, and the name of that company is, you guessed it, Tivo inc.

About the worst thing that can be said about the HR10 from a technology standpoint is that the OTA tuner isn't comparable to today's tuners. That is an area where progress has been swift, that's true. But for those of us with line of sight its a total and complete non-issue, because most of us have zero reception issues. It would be pretty hard to sell me a box with an improved tuner since the ones I have already work perfectly in my location.

You might have even noticed that the flurry of reception threads from 2004-5 has quieted down to a trickle, which means not that the tuner was the problem, but that education about the new rules for creating a strategic antenna system for ATSC have finally sunk in to the masses, probably with a lot of help from potential customers searching this forum, BTW. The fact that there were a lot of threads about that back in the day was only merely coincidental with the arrival of the HR10, not because of the HR10. It was driven instead by a lack of knowledge and a blind adherence to the rules governing NTSC reception, which are very different. Besides, a new box from Tivo would probably have gen5 tuners in it anyway.

Yes, the HD outputs go dark. They don't on the HR20. On the HR20, though, you can't have a simultaneous 4:3 on a 4:3 set and 16:9 on a 16:9 set where either one isn't squeezed or the other stretched, so you have to pick one, and can't really use both at the same time, and that ends up being the exact same limitation. So comparitively, the HD output capability of the HR10 is not very "primitive" at all.

The HR10 was the ***** in it's day, but guess what? It still is, and that day is far from over. It is still far and away the premiere recording platform for HD, leagues better than anything from DTV, DISH, cable, or any other 3rd-party PVR for OTA. Now the S3 is the ***** for QAM, and this potential S4 will probably be the ***** for MPEG-4 and maybe even broadband delivery.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Having both styles would be good but I would actually hope that Tivo would update a few things that are better done on the HR20 and integrate them. To a large extent, the base TiVo usage has been stagnant.


There has been absolutely _no_ development (other than maintenance software releases) on the directv/tivo platform since the end of '04 (the release of the r10). .... not that it was tivo's decision to stop development or anything, but I digress...

If this all changes with the Liberty acquisition, I'd bet there are quite a few things that will get updated. Quite a few indeed.


TyroneShoes said:


> I wonder how much Tivo bleeding 100K subs last quarter puts DTV in the driver's seat for a new deal?


"Bleeding" or not, you can bet directv will be "in the driver's seat". They still are tivo's biggest customer (for now, at least), no matter how you look at it.

I do agree though that it doesnt mean crap till directv weighs in.

I had planned on pulling out of directv after this years football season. They just may give me a reason to rethink my plans now.


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## rock_doctor (Oct 22, 2000)

> I had planned on pulling out of directv after this years football season. They just may give me a reason to rethink my plans now.


IMHO, that's just it. Tivo is not just a sticker on the front of the box. It is a major selling point to most consumers. Look at the millions of those who are DTV subs and (I suspect) a major majority will refuse to convert to non-TiVo hardware (myself included). With just about every cable company going with TiVo powered units DTV will eventually need to jump back on the TiVo ship or it will sail with out them and that will cost them customers in the end. I suspect they will make nice with TiVo but it may not be until they need to change out the old hardware for new hardware. For the time being we are repairing our own units and those who add used TiVo's to their accounts are costing DTV nothing, it's free money. Come out with new hardware and a huge number of customers will change hardware, costing DTV money in subsidies for the new equipment.

mark


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

I won't believe they'll be an MPEG-4 DIRECTV/TiVo till I see it.


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## brott (Feb 23, 2001)

nrc said:


> Supposedly the HR20 isn't NDS software anyway.


The hardware is built by Pace and the software is created by DIRECTV in-house programmers. NDS is only involved in the DIRECTV built receivers not called HR20. Even then, it is at the direction of DIRECTV, much like the TiVo/DIRECTV relationship used to be.


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

I think Tivo see's the writing on the wall. Which is they need to partner with DTV and the cable companies or go out of business. The cat is out of the bag with PVR / DVR and if the cable companies and DTV provide their own DVR units that leaves Tivo out except for the die hard gotta have a "Tivo" brand DVR crowd. Sure, DTV and the comcast crowd are having some growing pains on the DVR software side, but as far as I can tell, they are getting better every day. 

This whole Tivo vs all other DVR's reminds me of dial up internet.. Remember when AOL was the only game in town, and everyone you knew had an AOL account, and then the competition caught on and AOL stock dropped like a rock. The only way they stayed alive was to partner with Time Warner with the High Speed cable and DSL. 

Thats the only way for Tivo to stay afloat is to partner with the content providers who will likely squeez out Tivo all together if they really wanted to. Why should DTV allow Tivo back in? If DTV knows it will have its software issues worked out in short order, why even consider letting Tivo offer a DVR for their service? 

Does anyone else see the trouble Tivo could be headed for? When the masses migrate to HD over the next 5 years how many non-tivo owners will willingly spend the extra money for a "Tivo" branded DVR that their cable or dish providers will already provide them. My mother-in-law will be a late convert to HD because she could care less, but when she is forced to make that switch she will be more then satisfied with the provided DVR as will most of the crowd that will be converting to HD in the coming years. Tivo has seen its peak, and will only be losing sales from here on in. I have owned a S2 for 5 years and recently made the switch to HD with DTV and have canceled my Tivo service. My parents have done the same as well. My sister and brother in law have also made the switch to HD and have all canceled Tivo service on their S2's and have went with the provided DVR's from the content provider. I can list countless other friends who have made the same decision. I'm a Verizon employee and work on the FiOS TV product, and we see the trend of people canceling Tivo service and choosing to keep our Verizon DVR that is provided with the FiOS TV package. Sure, there are some die hards that "MUST" have that Tivo brand name, but for every one of those I can give you 100 that are willing to dump the $13.00 / month Tivo service and "learn" our Verizon DVR software at half the price. 

I wish Tivo well, but at Verizon and every other cable or dish provider they are working to keep those extra DVR dollars in house and will find a way to squeeze out Tivo unless Tivo offers them a sweet deal. Have at it y'all.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> Having both styles would be good but I would actually hope that Tivo would update a few things that are better done on the HR20 and integrate them. To a large extent, the base TiVo usage has been stagnant.


Yes, software has a tendancy to do that when you don't update it. Even so my R10 runs circles around my R15 (which is running their latest "cutting edge" release). Hell, I'd pull my DSR6000 out of the closet before putting my R15 in the primary viewing location.


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## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

There only needs to be one question. That question is - would that mean "EARL" comes back as a regular poster ? :-D


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

drew2k said:


> I'm hoping Malone and Rogers had some nice chats recently ... and that they lead to something. I would love to have TiVo integrated into MPEG4 DirecTV receivers!


Would that be something?

Well, I would think Rogers would be smart enough to NOT have said something like he did if something wasn't in the works. It could also be a "trial balloon" just to see if there is a favorable response to such a possibility. For many of us, it would seem to be a no brainer, but who knows how the possibility would sit with others?

It really would be great to see an MPEG-4 based Series2/Series3 type of system for DirecTV customers; perhaps that would also help bring people up to date on lots of other great standalone features that have been missing for some time as well!


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## NFLnut (Apr 22, 2000)

While the HR20 that I received last August (wasn't given a choice .. I told them I preferred the TiVo box) has improved the last few months, and there are some features that I would like to see TiVo implement, such as (but not necessarily limited to):

(1) not having to exit a recording or Live TV to see the ToDo List, schedule a recording, or look at the NOW Playing list.

(2) future interactive/VOD capabilities.


I would LOVE to have a DirecTV-TiVo HD-DVR with all of the new features! IMO, the HR20 will never be a good DVR. Just look at D*'s other (older) DVR's that are still not a finished product.

It would greatly enhance my opinion of DirecTV which has soured in the last three or four years! I've been a D* subscriber since 1994, and I was extremely happy with them until the News Corp experiment began. Their former customer service excellence has decreased to substandard levels. In fact, the ONLY reason I am still a D* subscriber is NFL-ST. I've even contemplated going back to cable, which I swore I would die before doing! The HR20 fiasco has only worsened my relationship with them.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

cramer said:


> HD outputs go dark when it switches to HD.


What does that mean?


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

jmoak said:


> There has been absolutely _no_ development on the directv/tivo platform since the end of '04 (the release of the r10). .... not that it was tivo's decision to stop development or anything, but I digress...


There have been several software release for the DirecTiVo since the end of '04 including a release for the Series 1 DirecTiVos.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

NFLnut said:


> It would greatly enhance my opinion of DirecTV which has soured in the last three or four years! I've been a D* subscriber since 1994, and I was extremely happy with them until the News Corp experiment began. Their former customer service excellence has decreased to substandard levels. In fact, the ONLY reason I am still a D* subscriber is NFL-ST. I've even contemplated going back to cable, which I swore I would die before doing! The HR20 fiasco has only worsened my relationship with them.


These are exactly my feelings, as well. I've been a customer since 1997 and have HATED cable quite some time. However, in these past three years, I've been souring on DirecTV and when the Series3 was released, I found myself actually considering (and am still considering) going with Comcast. I still have my HR10-250 and am relatively happy with it. Both HR20's I tried didn't work at all, so that was a very short-lived endeavor for me.


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## disco (Mar 27, 2000)

I really wonder how keen D* would be on re-introducing a TiVo DVR to their subscribers: they've said multiple times (and worked pretty hard at it) that they want all their receivers to have a unified interface...TiVo would "upset" that...


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## yamato72 (Aug 28, 2003)

Remember, even with an integrated Tivo, D*'s channels long ago started looking worse than cable. They are perpetuating that with "HD Lite." I've had D* since 1998, have cursed their PQ since it started tanking circa 2001, and would rather move to cable even if it is more $$.

Heck, I'd take a package with fewer channels if it meant the difference between getting 150 D* channels laden w/ compression artifacts vs even 50 watchable channels from Comcast.

I will be giving D* the boot as soon as I can get into an S3.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

disco said:


> I really wonder how keen D* would be on re-introducing a TiVo DVR to their subscribers: they've said multiple times (and worked pretty hard at it) that they want all their receivers to have a unified interface...TiVo would "upset" that...


Well, I'm sure they would do it in a heartbeat if they saw an opportunity to make more money, vs less.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

rminsk said:


> There have been several software release for the DirecTiVo since the end of '04 including a release for the Series 1 DirecTiVos.


Thanks. Fixed my post above.

I was assoicating "development" with "new features and advances" and "maintenance releases" with simple "updates and bug fixes" as was the jest from TonyD79's post.

Sorry 'bout that.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

disco said:


> I really wonder how keen D* would be on re-introducing a TiVo DVR to their subscribers: they've said multiple times (and worked pretty hard at it) that they want all their receivers to have a unified interface...TiVo would "upset" that...


Remember we have a changing of the guard here. Rupert wanted a uniform interface. Who knows what Liberty Media has planned for DirecTV.


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## Celusil (Aug 13, 2002)

I'd like to chime in one the 'almost ready for cable but not if d* starts to resell tivo' bandwagon
over the next couple of years I will be converting to HD - it will be a multi-stage process since upgrading everything: TVs, TIVOs, Service, DVD player, DVD recorder, etc. will be an expensive proposition. I also hate cable but an S3 with Comcast or a Comcast Tivo would be preferable over what most reviewers say is a bad DVR from Direct TV

First Step - wait for a sub $1000 Large screen (over 32") HD TV preferably not projection although I like DLP in the stores


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

rminsk said:


> Remember we have a changing of the guard here. Rupert wanted a uniform interface. Who knows what Liberty Media has planned for DirecTV.


Making money? That would be my guess! 

If Malone can offer MPEG4 TiVo DirecTV receivers that can be networked for VOD, and he can charge a "premium" for the TiVo boxes, why wouldn't they do that?

There was a time that DirecTV sold over a dozen different receivers, and at this moment, DirecTV still officially supports all of those different brands of receivers. CSRs have to be prepared to talk a customer through any issue on any of those receivers, so going "back" to TiVo really doesn't change "support" issues much. Besides, that was probably Rupert's plan to save money, and it only would have worked when ALL of the "non-standard" receivers were replaced. That would have taken years ...


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Celusil said:


> I'd like to chime in one the 'almost ready for cable but not if d* starts to resell tivo' bandwagon


I have no desire to ever go back to cable, especially when I read headlines like, "TW to move 50% of customer areas to SDV next year". They need to do that to have the bandwidth to roll out new HD channels to match what DirecTV will be rolling out, but the cable companies do it at the risk of losing CableCard customers with third-party boxes (eg, TiVo S3) ...


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## dscott72 (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll bet anything that IF this happens, that it wouldn't be too long before a new HD Tivo would be out on the market. My gut feeling is Tivo already has a unit on the drawing board ready to push into production.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

DirecTV and NDS are no longer under the same ownership umbrella, once Liberty takes over, correct ? If that's the case, then there really isn't a benefit for Liberty to keep their DVR development agreement with NDS. For one, they're having to pay for an inferior product. And two, the checks that they write are headed into Murdoch's coffers, which probably leaves a bad taste in their mouths.

It made financial sense for Murdoch to bring the DVR development "in-house". That's not the case any more for Liberty. If they're gonna have to pay for a DVR, they might as well go with TiVo and get a quality product.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

If possible, a port to their existing hardware (as TiVo is doing for the CableCos) would be interesting. Comcast is going to charge a premium to "upgrade" from a DVR to a TiVo, why not the same for DirecTV? I'd gladly pay twice my DVR fee to have multiple TiVos with the latest features and support.


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## cowboys2002 (Jun 15, 2001)

dswallow said:


> Or even just label it STANDARD DEFINITION.


Won't HDTV be "STANDARD" by 2009 anyway. Then having 2 forums will be a moot point!


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

PaulS said:


> DirecTV and NDS are no longer under the same ownership umbrella, once Liberty takes over, correct ? If that's the case, then there really isn't a benefit for Liberty to keep their DVR development agreement with NDS. For one, they're having to pay for an inferior product. And two, the checks that they write are headed into Murdoch's coffers, which probably leaves a bad taste in their mouths.
> 
> It made financial sense for Murdoch to bring the DVR development "in-house". That's not the case any more for Liberty. If they're gonna have to pay for a DVR, they might as well go with TiVo and get a quality product.


While the R15 was developed by NDS, the HR20 is not. It is a DirecTV in house product that Liberty will now own as well. So they still have motivation for keeping things in house.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

PaulS said:


> DirecTV and NDS are no longer under the same ownership umbrella, once Liberty takes over, correct ? If that's the case, then there really isn't a benefit for Liberty to keep their DVR development agreement with NDS.


 All development of the HR20 (HD DVR) is now in-house, so NDS actually doesn't do the programming any more. (Not sure if that's true for all "new model" receivers, but I think it is ...)



> For one, they're having to pay for an inferior product.


Entirely subjective. There are people who love Ultimate TV and think TiVo is the pits. Everyone likes what they like. :shrug:


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## bpratt (Nov 20, 2004)

cowboys2002 said:


> Won't HDTV be "STANDARD" by 2009 anyway. Then having 2 forums will be a moot point!


Digital TV broadcast OTA will be a standard on Feb 17, 2009. There is nothing that says it will be HD or that cable or satellite services will be exclusively HD.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

Lets Face it guys Our only real hope is that right now sitting in John Malones house is a TiVo and he has tried to use an r15. If Mr. Malone Knows himself How much better a True Tivo Dvr is vs all other Dvrs than we have a shot. My Hope is John Malone right now has like 6 Tivos all over his home and has at some point dealt with a crappy dvr and is aware that NOTHING Out there On planet Earth is remotely as good as tivo. 


From My keyboard to malones eyes :up: :up:


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

drew2k said:


> Entirely subjective. There are people who love Ultimate TV and think TiVo is the pits. Everyone likes what they like. :shrug:


Which is probably the best reason DirecTV should embrace openness a bit more, and provide customers with choices, even if they might default to a particular one.


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## FlWingNut (Mar 4, 2005)

rock_doctor said:


> IMHO, that's just it. Tivo is not just a sticker on the front of the box. It is a major selling point to most consumers. Look at the millions of those who are DTV subs and (I suspect) a major majority will refuse to convert to non-TiVo hardware (myself included). With just about every cable company going with TiVo powered units DTV will eventually need to jump back on the TiVo ship or it will sail with out them and that will cost them customers in the end. I suspect they will make nice with TiVo but it may not be until they need to change out the old hardware for new hardware. For the time being we are repairing our own units and those who add used TiVo's to their accounts are costing DTV nothing, it's free money. Come out with new hardware and a huge number of customers will change hardware, costing DTV money in subsidies for the new equipment.
> 
> mark


Me thinks those of us on this board tend to overstate the value of Tivo to the great masses that don't even have a DVR yet. I mean, how long have Tivo and D* been working together and there was no giant stampede to get a D*Tivo. And masses of folks didn't drop D* after it announced the end of new D*Tivos. It's just one factor in the equation, alongside things like PQ vs. the local cable company, channel selection and choice, ST and other sport packages, costs vs cable and E*, and whether or not cable is even available. I honestly believe most people (that haven't had a D*Tivo before)don't give a fig wheter their DVR is a Tivo or not. To many, a DVR is a DVR. If the R15 or HR20 is the first they ever use, they'll be happy with it.

I'd like to see a choice, and upgrades for the D*Tivos I own. I have two of them, plus an R15. There are plus and minuses for each. I'd love one that would combine the best of both.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

will they make me trade in my old HDtivo?


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## tfederov (Jul 6, 2003)

newsposter said:


> will they make me trade in my old HDtivo?


Not if they're owned. If you leased it, then it supposedly goes back. I just shelved my last HR10-250 which was a lease. I'll see if they send me a kit to send it back. If not, it's gonna collect dust in the closet.


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

disco said:


> I really wonder how keen D* would be on re-introducing a TiVo DVR to their subscribers: they've said multiple times (and worked pretty hard at it) that they want all their receivers to have a unified interface...TiVo would "upset" that...


But there is about to be a whole new "they."


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

bigpuma said:


> While the R15 was developed by NDS, the HR20 is not. It is a DirecTV in house product that Liberty will now own as well. So they still have motivation for keeping things in house.


Good to know. So, Malone's decision isn't so cut 'n dried. That's unfortunate (for us).

Does the HR20 still suck ? Last I read (and admittedly, that was a while ago), the thing was still fraught with problems. If that remains the case, I imagine an HD DirecTiVo might still have some value to it in Liberty's eyes.

[edit] : Looks like the HR20 has progressed into being a box that's not bad, but still not even remotely in TiVo's zip-code yet.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

PaulS said:


> Does the HR20 still suck ?


So people have no problems and others do. Personally on the four I have access too they still have short recordings (missing last minute), late starts (missing the first minute), and sometimes totally miss recordings.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

FlWingNut said:


> Me thinks those of us on this board tend to overstate the value of Tivo to the great masses that don't even have a DVR yet. I mean, how long have Tivo and D* been working together and there was no giant stampede to get a D*Tivo. And masses of folks didn't drop D* after it announced the end of new D*Tivos.


Once again there was no reason to drop Directv though since the Tivos still work so there is no way to know what would have happened if they disabled Tivos and offered a trade program.


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## willmw (Apr 30, 2000)

I just went to DirecTV's website and sent a comment/suggestion in support of their re-connecting with TiVo for future DVR's. I recommend everyone here do the same.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

drew2k said:


> I have no desire to ever go back to cable, especially when I read headlines like, "TW to move 50% of customer areas to SDV next year". They need to do that to have the bandwidth to roll out new HD channels to match what DirecTV will be rolling out, but the cable companies do it at the risk of losing CableCard customers with third-party boxes (eg, TiVo S3) ...


 Risk losing all 5 customers in the US with cablecards? SDV is the current crack cocaine for cablecos and they're not going back on it. Time Warner is going 100% in-house for their newest software, Navigator, and they'll be standardizing all franchises on it rather than the current SARA and Passport software that was developed outside. It's already in use in several markets. TW will *not* be negotiating with Tivo.

Even the much touted Comcast-Tivo marriage has yet to be consumated. The announcement was made in March 2005 and we still haven't seen a single box delivered to customers. Supposedly they will begin a limited consumer rollout in the Boston area in August but who knows if they'll meet that schedule? If you're a cableco and you see it's taken Comcast & Tivo 2 1/2 years to *possibly* deploy the first boxes, how excited are you going to be about also joining with Tivo? Not to mention that the Comcast Tivo box will have a premium price over their current software. There's no proof that Comcast customers will be willing to pay for it.

I"m as much a Tivo fanboy as anyone and still have two of them running. However, I've now had the HR20 for a few weeks and I'm very impressed. I could easily see myself going exclusively HR20 in the future. VOD will be the icing on the cake.

Basically, IMHO Tivo had their chance and blew it. Great product, abysmal management. Time moves on and so will most of the public.

Tivo fanatics remind me of the Amiga fanatics in the 1980's. You will still find Amiga fanboys who think it's a better computer than what you can buy today. Logic isn't part of their equation.


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

> Basically, IMHO Tivo had their chance and blew it. Great product, abysmal management. Time moves on and so will most of the public.


Well said Bob. Unless you just can't live without a "TiVo" branded DVR, the smart money will be on going the less expensive route and taking the DVR from the content provider.

I don't think any of the content providers want to see TiVo get those DVR monthly fee's when they can offer their own DVR's and collect fee's. I hear the fanboys scream about how much better the TiVo product is, but last time I checked, TiVo doesn't own a cable company to offer service to anyone, and if I'm the CEO of Verizon or Comcast etc, I want TiVo out of my network so I can get those dollars in house. Thanks TiVo for showing us the way, well take it from here.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Bob Coxner said:


> Risk losing all 5 customers in the US with cablecards?


I guess you've never visited the S3 forum... the number's a bit higher than 5, Bob. I know, you were just being dramatic.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

tcb121 said:


> Well said Bob. Unless you just can't live without a "TiVo" branded DVR, the smart money will be on going the less expensive route and taking the DVR from the content provider.


Well said. In the same vein, I bought a Civic instead of a Lexus, as the smart money goes the less expensive route.

Who needs the luxury and dependability of a Lexus? Unless you just can't live without a "Lexus" branded car, there's no way in god's green earth that anyone will want useless features like power windows and a comfortable ride. These extras mean nothing to me so they _can't_ mean diddly to anyone else.

Well said indeed.


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## tjs107 (Feb 5, 2003)

When is the deal with News Corp and Liberty Media to be completed?

TJS


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

jmoak said:


> Well said. In the same vein, I bought a Civic instead of a Lexus, as the smart money goes the less expensive route.
> 
> Who needs the luxury and dependability of a Lexus? Unless you just can't live without a "Lexus" branded car, there's no way in god's green earth that anyone will want useless features like power windows and a comfortable ride. These extras mean nothing to me so they _can't_ mean diddly to anyone else.
> 
> Well said indeed.


LOL

The point I think he's trying to make is one I've said all along but people don't seem to get: People getting DVRs now have no idea what Tivo is. Or more accurately, all DVRs are "Tivo".

They're just looking at it as a VCR without tapes (that's how I have to explain it to relatives that ask me what this DVR thing is the cable company wants to give them for free). There really is no way the majority of these people are going to pay extra for a Tivo interface that is "better". They don't know it's "better" and they aren't going to pay to find out. "Does the in house DVR record Oprah so I can watch it when I get home? It does? Good enough for me! "

It's the exact same argument many people use for cable, "why pay X dollars for a satellite receiver when the cable company give me a box for free?"

To the Tivo fanatics today it's an abomination to think of a DVR not having Tivo. There is nothing wrong with that. But you also have to realize you are less then 1% of the TV watching population out there. Everyone else is just doesn't know any better and will take whatever in house DVR their provider gives them.

I agree that Tivo is better then most of the in house DVRs out there. But it doesn't matter what's better. What matters is what's free or cheap and still works "good enough" which most cable/in house DVRs do. If they didn't there wouldn't be millions upon millions with these DVRs vs Tivos.

Tivo's CEO's comments were directly soley at the stockholders to try to give them some hope. Nothing more then that. Anyone that thinks otherwise (until DirecTV says something) is just deluding themselves.


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

Jmoak,

I didn't realize that TiVo was providing me the picture on the screen. You mean I pay DirecTV for that when I could get it from TiVo??? We are all driving the same car when it comes to content provided on the TV. Your HD Fox provided by Comcast or Verizon or DTV or whoever is going to be the same as mine. What we are talking about here is only the DVR unit. When you play back your HD recording of "House", will it look any different then when I play mine back on my HR20? Nope, didn't think so. So lets see where the real strife is... Where is this huge Lexus vs Civic difference that you speak of? Are we still talking about watching a TV, or does your TiVo wash dishes and take the dog for a walk? I watch TV, and weather I recorded a show with my TiVo or my HR20, it still looks like TV to me. Just because I recorded the show with a "TiVo" brand DVR didn't make the quality any better. Did TiVo send you a coffee mug when you signed up. I bet thats the reason behind all this. I didn't get the mug with the HR20. I have a TiVo, and I have an HR20 and both get the job done. I press record, and the show records. I press pause, and the show pauses. Were not talking heated leather seats with memory seating and heated mirros and dual climate control with GPS and Bose surrond sound vs a stripped down Civic. Give me something physical. You press a button, I press a button, both record. You press pause I press pause both pause. My Picture quality looks just as good as your picture quality. I can stream photos and MP3 same as you. Where not talking leather vs cloth. It's a DVR its simple. You pay more I pay less.  Happy me.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

Now lets see.....

Pay Tivo $12.95 a Month for Service, then additional for each unit.

OR

Pay Directv $5.99 a Month for Service for any number of units......

Looks like the cheaper Civic wins!!!


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## lvthunder (Apr 4, 2002)

wolflord11 said:


> Now lets see.....
> 
> Pay Tivo $12.95 a Month for Service, then additional for each unit.
> 
> ...


But if your paying TiVo $12.95 a month you should get all the features the standalone versions do. Which means the TiVo does a whole lot more then the D* boxes.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

wolflord11 said:


> Now lets see.....
> 
> Pay Tivo $12.95 a Month for Service, then additional for each unit.


You pay $12.95/mo. _if_ you're willing to commit to three years. You pay $16.95/mo. if you're only willing to commit to one.

Yeah, TFBs, I know three year pre-pay works out to $8 and change a month, but that's if you're willing to cough up $299 upfront.

TiVo believes DVR is a cottage industry, while the multichannel providers believe it's a churn reduction tool. Sorry, I think the multichannel providers are right and to me they're the ones that matter because TiVo can't give me my RSNs, HBO, or the History Channel.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

lvthunder said:


> But if your paying TiVo $12.95 a month you should get all the features the standalone versions do. Which means the TiVo does a whole lot more then the D* boxes.


Except even Tivo's own Series 3 doesn't do all the features of a stand alone.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

I can't help but believe you guys are missing the whole point of TiVo's deal with Comcast/Cox, and the potential of a deal with DirecTV. 

If they can get enough of these deals in place, which are really just software licensing deals, they can do themselves a huge favor and get the hell out of the hardware business. That would allow them to cut out expenses related to hardware R&D, hardware subsidies, hardware manufacturing costs, and really just focus on being a software house (which is what their strength really is IMHO).


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## lvthunder (Apr 4, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> Except even Tivo's own Series 3 doesn't do all the features of a stand alone.


And why is that. Because the cable companies (IE CableLabs) won't let them.


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## adlnc07 (Jun 5, 2007)

I hope this means that, at the very least, some Tivo functionality might make it's way into Directv DVR's in the future. 

After being a very long-time Tivo subscriber (since the 2nd year they were available), I had an R15 for the past 5 months. I absolutely hated it from about day two (when it would arbitrarily not record programs as scheduled). I'm so glad I got a used HDVR2 for $25 off Craigslist and spent 3+ hours on the phone with Directv to go back to Tivo. Frankly I'd rather use a standalone Tivo to record one channel at a time for $12.95-16.95 a month than put up with an R15 ever again.

Maybe the average person who hasn't ever used Tivo thinks an R15 is fine - that doesn't make it any less of a piece of junk. Every customer service rep I've talked to at Directv says they get TONS of complaints about the R15.

Anyhow, I hope there is some good news in the future as a result of the acquisition/merger.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

tcb121 said:


> Jmoak,
> 
> I didn't realize that TiVo was providing me the picture on the screen. You mean I pay DirecTV for that when I could get it from TiVo??? We are all driving the same car when it comes to content provided on the TV. Your HD Fox provided by Comcast or Verizon or DTV or whoever is going to be the same as mine. What we are talking about here is only the DVR unit. When you play back your HD recording of "House", will it look any different then when I play mine back on my HR20? Nope, didn't think so. So lets see where the real strife is... Where is this huge Lexus vs Civic difference that you speak of? Are we still talking about watching a TV, or does your TiVo wash dishes and take the dog for a walk? I watch TV, and weather I recorded a show with my TiVo or my HR20, it still looks like TV to me. Just because I recorded the show with a "TiVo" brand DVR didn't make the quality any better. Did TiVo send you a coffee mug when you signed up. I bet thats the reason behind all this. I didn't get the mug with the HR20. I have a TiVo, and I have an HR20 and both get the job done. I press record, and the show records. I press pause, and the show pauses. Were not talking heated leather seats with memory seating and heated mirros and dual climate control with GPS and Bose surrond sound vs a stripped down Civic. Give me something physical. You press a button, I press a button, both record. You press pause I press pause both pause. My Picture quality looks just as good as your picture quality. I can stream photos and MP3 same as you. Where not talking leather vs cloth. It's a DVR its simple. You pay more I pay less.  Happy me.


Tcb121,

You didn't realize that TiVo was providing me with much more than a way to just playback the picture on the screen? I mean you pay DirecTV for less than what I get from TiVo!

We are not all driving the same car when it comes to TV convince and features.

Your HD Fox provided by Comcast or Verizon or DTV or whoever is going to be the same as mine, but that's just a small part of the experience. What we are talking about here is much more than just recording on a DVR unit. When I play back my recording of "House", it looks no different than it does when you play it back on your dvr, but my dvr is much more than a simple recording/playback device.

Can you grasp that? Nope, didn't think so.

So lets see where the real strife is... Where is this huge Lexus vs Civic difference that I speak of? We're not just talking about watching TV, my TiVo does way more than that! You watch TV, and weather you record a show with your DirectvTiVo or your HR20, it still looks like TV to you, and that's all that you can see. But there's much more to a real tivo than that.

Just because I recorded the show with a "TiVo" brand DVR doesnt make the quality any better, but the experience is much, much different. I have search functions like no one's ever heard of. I have massive confidence that my dvr will record what I tell it to without me having to "check it" all the time. I have series recording capabilities that are second to none. I can legally download movies and tv shows from the internet on my dvr. I can upload movies and tv shows to my dvr from my home computer. I can create dvd's from shows on my dvr without having to go through a real-time lossy capture process and tie up my tivo viewing while I do it. I can download shows and movies to my laptop and my portable player. I can get current local weather on demand. I can get current local traffic conditions on demand. I can listen to internet radio. I can buy movie tickets at home on my dvr and not have to stand in line to get them at my local theater. I can get and send home movies and pictures to my family across the country with tivo's. I can watch 'Heavy' and 'The Onion' clips (among other things) on my tv without touching my computer. I can get info about products I'm interested in from my dvr. I can record a program by just clicking an icon on my tv screen when they advertise it.

Heck, my dvr actually records things _I might like that I have missed as suggestions!!!_ (Theres more, but my fingers tire)

It dang sure beats the heck out of a coffee mug! Thats the reason behind all this! You didnt even get a mug with your dvr! 

You have a crippled directvtivo and an HR20 and both get the job done. You press record, and the show records. You press pause, and the show pauses. And that's just about it. Were talking heated leather seats with memory seating and heated mirrors and dual climate control with GPS and Bose surround sound vs. a stripped down Civic.

How's that for something physical?

You press a button, I press a button, both record. You press pause I press pause, both pause. Your picture quality looks just as good as my picture quality. You can stream photos and MP3 same as I, but that's about it. Were not just talking about leather vs. cloth. We're talking about a Tivo compared to just another dvr.

It's not just a simple DVR. I pay more, you pay less. I get more, you get less. Happy me.


If you're happy with your dvr's, good for you! I'm not about to insist that you experience your dvr's just like I do.

You like the Civic, I like the Lexus.

Each to his own.

Just don't poopoo my Lexus and I'll refrain from poopooing on your Civic.

Cool?


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## adlnc07 (Jun 5, 2007)

> I have massive confidence that my dvr will record what I tell it to without me having to "check it" all the time.


This is my #1 complaint about the R15.. I never had to wonder if my Tivo would record a show (or a series).. it just DID.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

PaulS said:


> I can't help but believe you guys are missing the whole point of TiVo's deal with Comcast/Cox, and the potential of a deal with DirecTV.
> 
> If they can get enough of these deals in place, which are really just software licensing deals, they can do themselves a huge favor and get the hell out of the hardware business. That would allow them to cut out expenses related to hardware R&D, hardware subsidies, hardware manufacturing costs, and really just focus on being a software house (which is what their strength really is IMHO).


 That *WAS* the smart business model to follow. It's what made Qualcomm so rich. License CDMA cell technology (and maybe chipsets) but don't try to build the cellphone handsets yourself.

That strategy probably would have worked 5 years ago. Unfortunately, Tivo's management wasn't up to the task and continued to try to go it alone. Eventually cablecos and the sat companies decided the best way to maximize profits was to bring DVR software inhouse. Now *THEY* get to collect the monthly fees that Tivo could have been collecting. Time Warner is developing their own inhouse system - Navigator. DirecTV is inhouse except for legacy DTivos. Dish has always been inhouse. Now that they get to keep ALL of those fees, there's no way they're going to go back and give a cut to Tivo. It doesn't matter if their inhouse design isn't as good, it's more profitable and that's more important to them. As it should be, for their shareholders' benefit.

It would take a wayback time machine, and new Tivo management, to see what would have happened. My guess is, like Qualcomm, Tivo would be a raging success today if they had taken the licensing strategy from the start. However, that train left the station long ago and won't be coming around again.


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## JohnTivo (Dec 2, 2002)

Bob Coxner said:


> Tivo fanatics remind me of the Amiga fanatics in the 1980's. You will still find Amiga fanboys who think it's a better computer than what you can buy today. Logic isn't part of their equation.


That brings back memories of posts during the BBS era...

My Commodore Amiga 2000 with 1 meg of ram, dual 3.5 floppies, and a 10 meg harddrive ROCKS! Your silly little Apple IIe or IBM compatible is junk! I can multitask and you can't... you suck!


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

> Just because I recorded the show with a "TiVo" brand DVR doesnt make the quality any better, but the experience is much, much different. I have search functions like no one's ever heard of. I have massive confidence that my dvr will record what I tell it to without me having to "check it" all the time. I have series recording capabilities that are second to none. I can legally download movies and tv shows from the internet on my dvr. I can upload movies and tv shows to my dvr from my home computer. I can create dvd's from shows on my dvr without having to go through a real-time lossy capture process and tie up my tivo viewing while I do it. I can download shows and movies to my laptop and my portable player. I can get current local weather on demand. I can get current local traffic conditions on demand. I can listen to internet radio. I can buy movie tickets at home on my dvr and not have to stand in line to get them at my local theater. I can get and send home movies and pictures to my family across the country with tivo's. I can watch 'Heavy' and 'The Onion' clips (among other things) on my tv without touching my computer. I can get info about products I'm interested in from my dvr. I can record a program by just clicking an icon on my tv screen when they advertise it.


Maybe you have more free time then me, but let me clear up a few points for you. I don't have a Directivo, I have a real series 2 tivo with TTG and all the dressings, so I know all of the features you speak of. I do use the transfer feature to bring over shows to put on DVD. I use "VideoRedo" to edit out commercials etc. I also have a PC that has a PVR and a HD capture card in it, so I can capture OTA HD and archive to DVD etc.. I've been in this DVR game for awhile too. I'm not a big fan of the search features TiVo offers however they are nice, and the first thing I did was turn off the TiVo selections that it thought I might like. There are many free websites that offer "search" features just like TiVo that can inform you of programming. If I want to record something I'll let my TiVo know, I don't need or want TiVo recording shows it "thinks" I might like. I don't check my HR20 to see if it missed anything. Hasn't missed a show for me yet and I don't think it will. Don't need to "upload" shows to my Tivo, I have a DVD player that is capable of playing Divx, Xvid, VCD, DVD, JPG images, MP3's, Mpeg4.. More then enough formats. I don't see TiVo playing Divx, Xvid or Mpeg4 yet.... Sure, I can "Stream" that content through a program on my PC to get it into a mpeg2 compliant source, but that seems excessive when I already have a capable solution. If you have to go through the tivo menu to get the weather God bless you. I usually look out the window, open up the door or check accuweather.com. How about the weather channel. Once again, if you are getting your local traffic through your TiVo, your a dedicated man to that TiVo. Radio or local news is the best source for traffic and weather for your area. DirecTV has XM radio, why on earth would I want to stream internet radio?? If I'm going to the movies, I can buy the tickets online just as simple as you can using your TiVo interface. It's a DVR, not the home shopping network. If I want to find out more about a product, I'll take the time and look it up. If I'm reduced to my TiVo telling me about a product it is advertising, I'm already lost. I'll give you that you can watch "Heavy and the Onion" clips without your PC. I'm sure these feature please some folks out there, but they all seem like fluff to me. I already have products that are designed to do all of these extra "features" and in most cases the products I have do a much nicer job. If I want to send a video or pictures to friends and family, I have my own website I can post them there. All of my friends and family have access to the web, so I'm not reduced to sending those images and videos to the few who happen to have a TiVo. Email works great for those things too.

I just don't see someone saying. Man, I gotta have my local weather on my TiVo, and I can't live without my DVR telling me how the traffic is going to be in the morning. They need to add in a horiscope of the day for ya. Maybe I'm the problem in this whole thing because I have found faster more reliable sources to get information like that. I'm also not the type of person that needs my TiVo to pick shows it thinks I may enjoy. I'm capable of selecting shows that I'm interested in and hitting the record button. That's probably another problem. I'm too damned selective and make my own decisions. I don't think anything you listed above are deal breakers for anyone interested in a DVR. If TiVo could transfer encrypted HD content to my PC, that would be worth the extra fee's, but I don't see that happening. I'm fine with the gotta have a TiVo crowd, but I still don't see the Lexus vs Civic between the two.

Last point I promise. You know all that junk software you get when you buy a new PC. ( Actually I don't, because I build my own, but I have helped many O friends with store bought PC's ). That junk software is all the crap TiVo is adding in. Where is the value in local Weather and Traffic on my TiVo. My Nintendo Wii has local Weather and news on it too, but if I want to see the local weather and news I'll "Watch it on TV", not read it from my TiVo or Nintendo. If I wanted to listen to internet radio I would do it from my PC, not my TV. If I want to out to the movies and really really need the ticket ahead of time, I would get them from the PC, not my DVR. If you live your life that connected to your DVR, your really not living. There is more to life then TiVo.

Enjoy your S3's while you can.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Personally I dont think the issue is Tivo vs DTV vs Comcast vs ...

Its about having a choice. I am very happy I can go to DTV, Comcast, U-verse, Amazon, youtube, and straight to many networks to get content. Its a wonderful competitive choice I dont want to go away.

When I go to Cingular/Verizon/Sprint/... They let me choose from a variety of cell phones.
When I go to Frys, I choose from OSX, Linux, Windows for my OS and various vendors for my HW.

When go somewhere I can choose whatever car I want, or take mass transit.

The cable industry is required to support cable cards and give us a choice of platforms. I know they dont like it but it really does extend their marketing opportunities.

DTV and E* have chosen to eliminate choice. They want a few extra bucks and control but are losing marketing options.

In the end it wont matter much because I firmly believe IPTV will allow us to eliminate DTV, Comcast and go straight to the content creators.

I have watched ABC shows I have missed straight their website and its pretty good.

As the years go by the only reason people will go to certain places is because of exclusive distribution rights like sunday ticket (Which I could care less about). 

As soon as the quality is their the NFL will sell that directly and cut out the middle man.

DTV has realistic two way packetized options without partnering. The bells may partner in the short term but why would they in the long term.

Your right there is more to life than Tivo and I want as many options as possible.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

tcb121 said:


> Maybe you have more free time then me, but let me clear up a few points for you. ....


Dude! I understand! You don't think much of tivo's features and you see them as redundant and un-necessary.

I gotcha. No problem. It's a free country where we can all do just what we want. (within reason)

I don't think any less of you or anyone else that thinks the way you do. Not at all.

I replied to you earlier in the same vein as your post. I was trying to be humorous while showing that your way was not the only way to use a tivo. To say that one way is correct and another is wrong is just a bit arrogant, to say the least.

But if nothing else, I implore you,

Please don't belittle me for actually liking and using my tivo the way I want to.


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## doncoolio (Jul 9, 2006)

JohnTivo said:


> That brings back memories of posts during the BBS era...
> 
> My Commodore Amiga 2000 with 1 meg of ram, dual 3.5 floppies, and a 10 meg harddrive ROCKS! Your silly little Apple IIe or IBM compatible is junk! I can multitask and you can't... you suck!


Oh yah? My A500 had a 65010 accelerator board running at 14.28 mhz, controlled by a toggle switch that allowed me to drop back to the 65000 for compatibility. It also had a GVP side car that had 2 megs of ram and 20 mb hd........I sure wish I hadn't got rid of it a few years back. 

I definitely agree with the Amiga analogy. The best product will often drown against superior marketing/resources.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

JohnTivo said:


> That brings back memories of posts during the BBS era...
> 
> My Commodore Amiga 2000


I'll put my TI/99a and my atari 400 with cassette deck up against that anytime, bring it on!


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

> I replied to you earlier in the same vein as your post. I was trying to be humorous while showing that your way was not the only way to use a tivo. To say that one way is correct and another is wrong is just a bit arrogant, to say the least.


Wasn't trying to be arrogant.. I value your response and agree to disagree as do you. I'm happy for anyone who is using the TiVo and all of the added features included. I knew TiVo had some very loyal customers and you are living proof.  The market will play out over time, and I'm certain TiVo will find a niche or a company to buy them out if it comes to that. I'm not bitter at TiVo although it may seem that way, I'm more bitter at the lack of DVR's having the ability to access HD content. I have work arounds for the locals with my OTA HD capture card, but the encrypted content in HD is what I would really want. That, and I made the switch to DTV HD, and can't figure out why someone would choose cable just to get a TiVo S3 and pay extra for it. They can't all enjoy the weather and traffic that much on their TiVo's. 

To be honest, I looked at the weather only once on my S2. After that I laughed and said this is crazy. I did the same with my Nintendo Wii. Looked at the news and weather, and said why on earth would they add this to a game system. I'm sure every appliance will have news and weather by the time our future kids are out of school. I'll be reading my sports news from my fridge, and watching the game on the flat panel of my microwave. I'll buy my movie tickets from the dishwasher, and I'll have the TV order my groceries. HA!


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## jenolen (Dec 27, 2001)

As someone who just upgraded to HD... and lost actual Tivo in the living room (kept it for the bedroom; some things are sacrosanct!), I can tell you I am 100% NOT IMPRESSED with my first non-Tivo DVR experience.

And while "People getting DVRs now have no idea what Tivo is," people who already KNOW what Tivo is DEFINITELY know the difference when they have to get a DVR!


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

jenolen said:


> And while "People getting DVRs now have no idea what Tivo is," people who already KNOW what Tivo is DEFINITELY know the difference when they have to get a DVR!


Yes, very true. But the number of those people are in the serious minority of TV viewers out there. That's the point with that statement. There are 110 million TV households out there. Not a whole lot of them have Tivo or ever used a Tivo. No matter how much you love Tivo, you need to keep perspective.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

Bob Coxner said:


> That *WAS* the smart business model to follow. It's what made Qualcomm so rich. License CDMA cell technology (and maybe chipsets) but don't try to build the cellphone handsets yourself.
> 
> That strategy probably would have worked 5 years ago. Unfortunately, Tivo's management wasn't up to the task and continued to try to go it alone. Eventually cablecos and the sat companies decided the best way to maximize profits was to bring DVR software inhouse. Now *THEY* get to collect the monthly fees that Tivo could have been collecting. Time Warner is developing their own inhouse system - Navigator. DirecTV is inhouse except for legacy DTivos. Dish has always been inhouse. Now that they get to keep ALL of those fees, there's no way they're going to go back and give a cut to Tivo. It doesn't matter if their inhouse design isn't as good, it's more profitable and that's more important to them. As it should be, for their shareholders' benefit.
> 
> It would take a wayback time machine, and new Tivo management, to see what would have happened. My guess is, like Qualcomm, Tivo would be a raging success today if they had taken the licensing strategy from the start. However, that train left the station long ago and won't be coming around again.


True enough. However, I don't think the door is completely closed to TiVo, and the future isn't as bleak as you paint it.

TiVo's surely missed the timing on getting all of the content providers (satellite, cablecos) to license their software (the Qualcomm model). That's indisputable. So, they're not going to get the huge dollars they would have reaped were they have to proceded down that road, versus the "going it alone" approach they've taken in the past.

However, another business model is available to them, and that's apparently the avenue they're taking now. The "value add" approach. This method is reflected in the Comcast and Cox deals. They present an option to the content providers to "upsell" their customer base on a superior DVR experience with the TiVo software. So, the provide takes the low road with their in-house software, and they split the profits with TiVo for customers who want to upgrade their DVR software. Once again, not the entire chunk of revenues that they would have had were they to take this path a few years ago, but it's still nothing to sneeze at.

The window for really making this happen is a tight one. Time Warner's Navigator is currently a pathetic hunk of crap. Read all of the horror stories coming from Nebraska on AVS to see all the carnage from the initial Navigator roll-out. However, it likely won't be that way forever. The same is likely true for all of the other content providers who are aiming to take things in-house.

TiVo's window of opportunity is now, and probably for the next year or two. After that, the in-house solutions will have caught up, and TiVo's advantage will have been negated.

This all pre-supposes that TiVo's patent portfolio doesn't prevent other companies from rolling out a truly competitive DVR platform, which I believe to be the case. If the patents prove to be stronger, then Tivo's hand in dealing with the content providers is only strengthened in the deal-making process.


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## Babalax (Jun 7, 2007)

jenolen said:


> As someone who just upgraded to HD... and lost actual Tivo in the living room (kept it for the bedroom; some things are sacrosanct!), I can tell you I am 100% NOT IMPRESSED with my first non-Tivo DVR experience.
> 
> And while "People getting DVRs now have no idea what Tivo is," people who already KNOW what Tivo is DEFINITELY know the difference when they have to get a DVR!


I second that!!
(I am in the right place to defend my TiVo love, am I not DBS Talk folks?  )


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

jmoak said:


> Tcb121,
> 
> You didn't realize that TiVo was providing me with much more than a way to just playback the picture on the screen? I mean you pay DirecTV for less than what I get from TiVo!
> 
> ...


 Wow!  That's just about one of the best side-by-side comparisons of a TiVo to "X" DVR that I've seen to date. Well done and thank you! :up: :up: :up: Can I quote you?


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Moved from coffee house. Apparently, I am wrong about the leverage from NDS concerning boxes, since they are manufactured by Pace with programming by DirecTv.

The only thing I read there that was new was that Rogers said that the folks at Liberty loved Tivo.

The rest of it is a recitation of the possibility that became obvious after Murdoch dumped DirecTv. For example, he did not suggest that Tivo would take NDS to court over iinfringement and that DirecTv had a vulnerability there.

The article was long on the benefits to Tivo and DirecTivo fans, but short on the benefits to Liberty. The prime motivation for them would be defensive from two directions- First off, if Comcast succeeds in poaching DirecTivo loyalists, then Liberty will see the value of its investment dwindle. The NDS DVRs are not a Tivo equivalent- from the complaints I read are on the same tier as the cableco DVRs.

It is strategic in a second respect. As long as Liberty has a dependency on NDS, Murdoch continues to have leverage over Directv in content deals. Always in a negotiation, all cards come into play. NewsCorp does not have to do much to remind DirecTv that their delivery infrastructure depends on them. Sure sure they have contracts, but you know how it is. Shipments get delayed, features aren't delivered, failure rates go up.

There are other advantages. DirecTv is inherently one way, but with Tivo's existing infrastructure for downloaded videos, they could provide an answer to the range of a la cart video ordering that cableco's provide with on Demand and PPV. Granted, it would not be TivoCast or Unbox, but Tivo would be happy to duplicate the head end for TivoCast and do a service deal to provide demand video branded as a DirecTv service.​
While there are some advantages to DirecTv of a third party manufactured device, in general, they see more advantages to maintaining their lock in using proprietary hardware. The FCC gave a waiver to satellite companies from the 1996 Telecom law requiring third party access for displaying video from their networks. This law states that all waivers can only be temporary. Well- it has been ten years, so perhaps it is about time for that waiver to expire.

I don't think DirecTv is quaking in its boots over such a scenario and it is unlikely for them to do a deal with Tivo for the reason of co-opting such a move. From the regulatory standpoint though, it would be much better for Tivo if they didn't have to compete with other third party DVRs like those based on Windows MCE.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

FYI for those that don't know.

NDS doesn't make any of the DirecTV receivers.

NDS wrote the software for the R15. Not sure if DirecTV has taken this over becuase the R15 is getting a ton of CE love with nearly weekly software updates lately. Either way many of the improvements in the HR20 are making their way into the R15.
It's made by 3 different manufacturers including Thompson/RCA (-100), Pace (-700) and another (the -500?)

The HR20 code is totally in house to DirecTV.
It's also made by 2 different companies, Thompson/RCA (-100) and Pace (-700).


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## ayrton911 (Sep 4, 2000)

Great. When I finally settle for HR20, TiVo is coming back  I know it isn't certain yet, of course, I want it ot happen! DirecTV is the best way to get your TV service IMHO, and TiVo is the best way to manipulate that service.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Any thoughts concerning the question asked here?
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5228540


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> FYI for those that don't know.
> 
> NDS doesn't make any of the DirecTV receivers.
> 
> ...


The R15 comes in 100, 300 and 500 Models. 100: Thompson/RCA, 300: Philips, 500: Humax.


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## araxen (Oct 8, 2002)

I recently got moved to the Directv DVR plus after having two of my Tivo boxes killed due to a Thunderstorm. I know for one thing...Comcast is taking over the local cable co here by the end of the year and if they are offering Tivo's. Directv can kiss my $127/month out the window.

The Directv DVR is so laggy and isn't user friendly at all. Whomever designed that remote too needs to be fired.



rock_doctor said:


> IMHO, that's just it. Tivo is not just a sticker on the front of the box. It is a major selling point to most consumers. Look at the millions of those who are DTV subs and (I suspect) a major majority will refuse to convert to non-TiVo hardware (myself included). With just about every cable company going with TiVo powered units DTV will eventually need to jump back on the TiVo ship or it will sail with out them and that will cost them customers in the end. I suspect they will make nice with TiVo but it may not be until they need to change out the old hardware for new hardware. For the time being we are repairing our own units and those who add used TiVo's to their accounts are costing DTV nothing, it's free money. Come out with new hardware and a huge number of customers will change hardware, costing DTV money in subsidies for the new equipment.
> 
> mark


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

lvthunder said:


> But if your paying TiVo $12.95 a month you should get all the features the standalone versions do. Which means the TiVo does a whole lot more then the D* boxes.


So paying $12.95 a Month for One Unit is better than paying $5.99 a Month for unlimited units, even tho according to you the Tivo does a whole lot more.......

The Directv/Tivo unit is the best that Directv and Tivo ever had. I guess my All in One DSR6000 with networking cannot compare to a Stand Alone Tivo unit.....

LOL!


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

bidger said:


> You pay $12.95/mo. _if_ you're willing to commit to three years. You pay $16.95/mo. if you're only willing to commit to one.


Well I pay $19.95 a Month for One Year, so I am even getting more screwed by Tivo!


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## Celusil (Aug 13, 2002)

wolflord11 said:


> So paying $12.95 a Month for One Unit is better than paying $5.99 a Month for unlimited units, even tho according to you the Tivo does a whole lot more.......
> 
> The Directv/Tivo unit is the best that Directv and Tivo ever had. I guess my All in One DSR6000 with networking cannot compare to a Stand Alone Tivo unit.....
> 
> LOL!


I don't understand it when people say $5.99 for unlimited units and comparing them to stand alone. Yes the tivo service for multiple tivos is $5.99 but you still have to pay the extra receiver cost for each dtv device (which the tivo is) so it's still $5.99 or $4.99 per device plust the $5.99 for tivo service on all - It is still cheaper than multiple standalone's but it's not just $5.99

Sorry this was kind of off the point

c


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Celusil said:


> I don't understand it when people say $5.99 for unlimited units and comparing them to stand alone. Yes the tivo service for multiple tivos is $5.99 but you still have to pay the extra receiver cost for each dtv device (which the tivo is) so it's still $5.99 or $4.99 per device plust the $5.99 for tivo service on all - It is still cheaper than multiple standalone's but it's not just $5.99
> 
> Sorry this was kind of off the point
> 
> c


True. 
You'd pay a $5.99 DVR fee which covers as many DVRs as you want.
And you pay $4.99 mirror fee for any receiver beyond your first one.

I'd think most people don't really count the mirror fee since you'd pay that for any extra receiver, DVR or not. So it's not an "extra" expense just because it's a DVR. You pay it no matter what.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

In a strictly DTV world thats true but their was discussion of comparing it against S3 and HR20s.

In that case the mirror fee matches against the cable card fees and ADO fee.

So if you have two units its

base fee + DVR Fee + mirror fee against base fee + DVR fee + DVR 2nd fee + ADO + 2 * cable cards

DTV is still cheaper here but I think that will change once comcast rolls out their Tivo boxes.
They know how the competition prices things and it will be interesting.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

I wonder how long this will get bantered up and back before we actualy hear news good or bad. Arent there some folks who work for tivo or D* here? Will this thread be here for years and no answers. I hate these rumor threads sometimes as it gets hopes up only to get smashed. I wonder if liberty will try and go the same route as murdick(intentionaly mispelled   ) and try and make their own version of tivo :down: :down: :down: We need a "Save The DirectiVo" Rally. Perhaps we can do a live tivo aid concert. Allyson Hannigan will be there fer sure


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

Billy Bob Boy,

I don't think DTV wants to allow TiVo back in. The only way TiVo will get back with DTV is if they offer DTV a deal they can't resist. What incentive does DTV have?? DTV has already developed a DVR for its new mpeg4 HD channels and spent the time and effort to get TiVo out. I'm not sure why comcast is spending a penny to TiVo, maybe they are getting a nice kickback from the few who will subscribe for the premium. Every other content provider is trying to find a way to keep TiVo boxes off their network. The safe bet would be to not get your hopes up for TiVo returning to DTV. TiVo would probably love to see it happen, but too much effort has been put into the new HR20 units for DTV to let TiVo back in now.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Depending on the final outcome of the echostar law suite tivo could follow the Gemstar model. Licensing revenue in exchange for tivo not suing. Tivo could actually add value and license software or could just become a company of lawyers and cash checks.



PaulS said:


> TiVo's surely missed the timing on getting all of the content providers (satellite, cablecos) to license their software (the Qualcomm model). That's indisputable. So, they're not going to get the huge dollars they would have reaped were they have to proceded down that road, versus the "going it alone" approach they've taken in the past.
> 
> However, another business model is available to them, and that's apparently the avenue they're taking now. The "value add" approach. This method is reflected in the Comcast and Cox deals. They present an option to the content providers to "upsell" their customer base on a superior DVR experience with the TiVo software. So, the provide takes the low road with their in-house software, and they split the profits with TiVo for customers who want to upgrade their DVR software. Once again, not the entire chunk of revenues that they would have had were they to take this path a few years ago, but it's still nothing to sneeze at.
> 
> ...


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

tcb121 said:


> Billy Bob Boy,
> 
> I don't think DTV wants to allow TiVo back in.


Under Murdoch, that is the case.

But if Liberty gets cntrol, that could change, which is the point of Rogers' statement.


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

Classicsat,

Why? Why would DTV want such a venture? I'm sure there are some very vocal TiVo users who will scream and leave DTV in the future if they can't have the "TiVo" brand DVR, but the percentage will be small. I'm still with DTV, and have actually canceled my TiVo Series 2 service. I'm TiVo free and without a hitch. My HR20 is more then adequate and I have not had the "issues" that some others have reported. I have posted earlier that I'm not alone on the canceling of TiVo to stick with DTV. My Parents and brother in law have all canceled TiVo in favor of the HR20 and DTV. Many others will follow suit as they make the transition to HD with DTV. A lot of the population has not made the jump yet, and those with TiVo Series 2 units and DTV will have to decide if "TiVo" is worth switching their entire cable package for. Some will, most will not. It's not as if folks who stay with DTV will not have access to a DVR device. If I'm the CEO of Liberty Media, I'll pay TiVo some lip service, but my chips are all bet on my own in house DVR.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

A higher end, tivo based DVR, might attract some additional customers.

A relationship with tivo might allow DTV to continue deploying their own DVRs without having to worry about infringing on tivo's patents.



tcb121 said:


> Classicsat,
> 
> Why? Why would DTV want such a venture?


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## Celusil (Aug 13, 2002)

90% of The reason I went with dtv as opposed to cable 5 years ago is they had a 2 tuner dtivo at the time, the picture quality was better and always best and the fee is in fact cheaper than standalone. I have no idea the percentage of D* users that are also dvr users and by extension also tivo users, I'd be interested if anyone has stats on that. For me it's tivo or nothing and if I can no longer get tivo from dtv then comcast or some other provider will have to do as comcast with tivo (I hope) is better than Dtv without tivo.


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## FlWingNut (Mar 4, 2005)

jmoak said:


> Well said. In the same vein, I bought a Civic instead of a Lexus, as the smart money goes the less expensive route.
> 
> Who needs the luxury and dependability of a Lexus? Unless you just can't live without a "Lexus" branded car, there's no way in god's green earth that anyone will want useless features like power windows and a comfortable ride. These extras mean nothing to me so they _can't_ mean diddly to anyone else.
> 
> Well said indeed.


This wouldn't be the first time the "better" product loses the war. It was generally agreed Beta gave a better picture than VHS -- who won that one?

The Tivo experience reminds me of Apple, back in the day. Apple, which should have stuck to software, developed an OS light years ahead of Windows. Hell, I was using a 512k Mac in the mid-80's, and the Microsoft machines at work were still on DOS! Why anybody would purposely choose Windows over a Mac has always been a mystery to me. The AppleOS has always been easier, more intuitive, and more secure. What it wasn't was cheaper. I get that. But, like with Tivo, you gets what ya' pays for. Again, who won that one?

Until Apple developed other products like the iPod, it was going nowhere, despite having the far superior product. There's a lesson for Tivo there, if it chooses to learn it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lew said:


> A relationship with tivo might allow DTV to continue deploying their own DVRs without having to worry about infringing on tivo's patents.


that is the 64 million dollar question. Does the NDS DVR infringe on TiVo patents?


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> that is the 64 million dollar question. Does the NDS DVR infringe on TiVo patents?


I don't know. It might not matter. DTV is now using an "in house" DVR. I'm not sure how enforceable tivo's patents are overseas.


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## grandeau (Sep 16, 2005)

Celusil said:


> 90% of The reason I went with dtv as opposed to cable 5 years ago is they had a 2 tuner dtivo at the time, the picture quality was better and always best and the fee is in fact cheaper than standalone. I have no idea the percentage of D* users that are also dvr users and by extension also tivo users, I'd be interested if anyone has stats on that. For me it's tivo or nothing and if I can no longer get tivo from dtv then comcast or some other provider will have to do as comcast with tivo (I hope) is better than Dtv without tivo.


Same here. I wanted Tivo and the option to get dual tuners and lower fees was an easy decision, compared to staying with Comcast and their promise of on-demand. My problem is, I've since gotten hooked on the NFL package. That would be hard to give up...


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> that is the 64 million dollar question. Does the NDS DVR infringe on TiVo patents?


How exactly does the NDS DVR infringe on Tivo Patents?

The in house DVR uses in house software too, not Tivo software, which is what most of the patents are for.

It would almost be like saying every single DVR out there is infringing on Tivo's patents, and if that was the case, then every other DVR company could sue Tivo for a monopoly.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

wolflord11 said:


> almost be like saying every single DVR out there is infringing on Tivo's patents


We don't know that yet. We'll find out. DirecTV is immune for the duration of the current agreement; after that, again, we'll see.[/QUOTE]


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

wolflord11 said:


> How exactly does the NDS DVR infringe on Tivo Patents?
> 
> The in house DVR uses in house software too, not Tivo software, which is what most of the patents are for.


Note the Echostar case revolves around a hardware issue, not software. To say that most of TiVo's patents are for software is not necessarily accurate. Infact, I doubt TiVo's software is patented (you patent ideas, not code).


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

> This wouldn't be the first time the "better" product loses the war. It was generally agreed Beta gave a better picture than VHS -- who won that one?


I could not agree more. TiVo showed the content providers a market that could be tapped, and that was the death nail for TiVo in the long run. I'm sure TiVo will have a few more years before one of the content providers buys them out, but I don't see TiVo as an independant lasting through the HD conversion years. Yes, there is a market for "High End" DVR's, but that market is getting smaller by the day. Cheap will always win out just like it did with Apple VS MS. Besides, I don't get the "Lexus vs Civic" issue with these DVR's. TiVo throws in some junk extra's like local weather and traffic and people on here go crazy because they can get the local weather on their friggin DVR. Hello McFly, turn the TV onto the local news or the weather channel, or use the internet. Digital video is Digital video. The DVR records the Digital Video and plays it back, no quality gain by using TiVo. I love the emotional born again testimonials from the TiVo loyal. Their eyes well up and they tell you how wonderful the TiVo interface is, and how they just can't live without that TiVo branded DVR, and how they can't get any other DVR to work, and how they tried the HR20 and it missed all of their shows, and how terrible all other non-TiVo branded DVR's are. I understand, TiVo has some freaky loyal fans. I know a guy at work who is a Mac guy, and you could not give him a top quality Windows PC for free. He would rather pay double for the Apple brand, and hey, its his money. Let the loyal fans pay the dollars for TiVo brand, and I'll still be watching Digital Video in the same quality at a cheaper price then the TiVo crowed. The content is the Lexus, not the fuzzy dice that tells you the weather. We all have a Lexus in content, the Tivo just adds some junk in the trunk.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

FlWingNut said:


> This wouldn't be the first time the "better" product loses the war. It was generally agreed Beta gave a better picture than VHS -- who won that one?


I'm not proposing that tivo's going to win anything. I'm dang sure not going to speculate about what corporations are gonna do. (most times they seem to defy all logic!)

That post was in reply to another that gave the idea that the "smart money" was going to go with a generic dvr from a cable/sat provider over paying a premium for a real tivo (the dumb money choice) and that the extra features appealed to no one, because they did not appeal to him or his friends or family.

However small, I think the market's there as long as tivo can differentiate itself from the crowd with features and dependability.

But about my post, sorry. Sarcasm isn't my best medium.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

tcb121 said:


> I know a guy at work who is a Mac guy, and you could not give him a top quality Windows PC for free. He would rather pay double for the Apple brand, and hey, its his money.


Two times free is still free.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

tcb121 said:


> I could not agree more. TiVo showed the content providers a market that could be tapped, and that was the death nail for TiVo in the long run. I'm sure TiVo will have a few more years before one of the content providers buys them out, but I don't see TiVo as an independant lasting through the HD conversion years. Yes, there is a market for "High End" DVR's, but that market is getting smaller by the day. Cheap will always win out just like it did with Apple VS MS. Besides, I don't get the "Lexus vs Civic" issue with these DVR's. TiVo throws in some junk extra's like local weather and traffic and people on here go crazy because they can get the local weather on their friggin DVR. Hello McFly, turn the TV onto the local news or the weather channel, or use the internet. Digital video is Digital video. The DVR records the Digital Video and plays it back, no quality gain by using TiVo. I love the emotional born again testimonials from the TiVo loyal. Their eyes well up and they tell you how wonderful the TiVo interface is, and how they just can't live without that TiVo branded DVR, and how they can't get any other DVR to work, and how they tried the HR20 and it missed all of their shows, and how terrible all other non-TiVo branded DVR's are. I understand, TiVo has some freaky loyal fans. I know a guy at work who is a Mac guy, and you could not give him a top quality Windows PC for free. He would rather pay double for the Apple brand, and hey, its his money. Let the loyal fans pay the dollars for TiVo brand, and I'll still be watching Digital Video in the same quality at a cheaper price then the TiVo crowed. The content is the Lexus, not the fuzzy dice that tells you the weather. We all have a Lexus in content, the Tivo just adds some junk in the trunk.


 As Mark Twain so aptly put it, "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

Say "Hello" to our friends at Verizon!


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

richsadams said:


> As Mark Twain so aptly put it, "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."


You beat me to it  LOL


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

> However small, I think the market's there as long as tivo can *differentiate itself * from the crowd with *features and dependability*.


Jmoak,
You are making my point. A DVR is a DVR, and you can only add so many features to it. Maybe I'm lucky, but I have not had dependability issues with my DTV HR20 box, and it is in DTV's best interest to have a dependable product. Do you not see a day when the "Generic DVR" contains identical features and dependability? I'm certain the content providers want to level the "features and dependability" gap if one exists. I'll stand by my "Smart Money" statement because its the nature of big business to operate that way. TiVo is competition for DVR dollars, and Verizon, DTV and others are finding ways to push TiVo out and their own in house products in. "Smart Money". None of this will happen overnight, and TiVo has a few solid years left before the gig is up, and it helps that it has such strong support from the likes of you and others on this board. I'm not saying you are a fool for using or paying a premium for TiVo, I'm arguing that TiVo has lost the advantage and that for the masses, the content providers DVR's get the same job done. That to me has been the tipping point and why I see TiVo losing market share over time from here on. By all means, enjoy your TiVo and all the extra's you like about it.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

richsadams said:


> ... Say "Hello" to our friends at Comcast!


Same dance, different tune, but he makes his living working for Verizon Fios.


tcb121 said:


> _from post #33 in this thread:_
> I'm a Verizon employee and work on the FiOS TV product


... which actually explains a lot.

But, heay, everyone's entitled to their opinion. Even if it's an anti-tivo view posted on a pro-tivo board.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

FIOS TV? 

That dog won't hunt in my neighborhood.


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

fasTLane said:


> FIOS TV?
> 
> That dog won't hunt in my neighborhood.


Yes, I'm guilty as charged of being a Verizon employee working the FiOS product. If not for the NFL ST I would have went with FiOS, but I need access to my team.  Verizon's DVR is a pretty nice DVR. At least we can offer MRV which I don't see on the S3 yet. I've hit you over the head enough with the content providers coming out with more features then what TiVo will have to offer, so I'll leave it go.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

tcb121 said:


> I could not agree more. TiVo showed the content providers a market that could be tapped, and that was the death nail for TiVo in the long run. I'm sure TiVo will have a few more years before one of the content providers buys them out, but I don't see TiVo as an independant lasting through the HD conversion years. Yes, there is a market for "High End" DVR's, but that market is getting smaller by the day. Cheap will always win out just like it did with Apple VS MS. Besides, I don't get the "Lexus vs Civic" issue with these DVR's. TiVo throws in some junk extra's like local weather and traffic and people on here go crazy because they can get the local weather on their friggin DVR. Hello McFly, turn the TV onto the local news or the weather channel, or use the internet. Digital video is Digital video. The DVR records the Digital Video and plays it back, no quality gain by using TiVo. I love the emotional born again testimonials from the TiVo loyal. Their eyes well up and they tell you how wonderful the TiVo interface is, and how they just can't live without that TiVo branded DVR, and how they can't get any other DVR to work, and how they tried the HR20 and it missed all of their shows, and how terrible all other non-TiVo branded DVR's are. I understand, TiVo has some freaky loyal fans. I know a guy at work who is a Mac guy, and you could not give him a top quality Windows PC for free. He would rather pay double for the Apple brand, and hey, its his money. Let the loyal fans pay the dollars for TiVo brand, and I'll still be watching Digital Video in the same quality at a cheaper price then the TiVo crowed. The content is the Lexus, not the fuzzy dice that tells you the weather. We all have a Lexus in content, the Tivo just adds some junk in the trunk.


Its not about Tivo. Its about Choice. Its about being able to buy any friggin TV you want. Its about being able to buy any DVD player you want. Its about being able to buy any DVR you want.

And hook it up to any content provider you want.

How would you like it if you could only buy one and only one LCD panel to use with DTV and it only came in say 2 sizes and you had to sign more contract extensions

CHOICE gives us competition and cheap prices.

You are correct that Content is king and someday soon we can buy all our content directly from HBO, and the NFL, and ABC, ...

DTV will be left out in the cold in a few years when our coming fat internet pipes allow us to stream what ever choice media is out there.

Why should the content creators want to pay middleman fees except to maybe rural people who wont have access to fat pipes.

Its not about YAHOO pages. Its about innovation and competition.


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

zalusky,

I'm all for choice, but the DVR is now standard equipment with the cable/sat/FiOS providers. The choice will be what provider to go with, not so much about diversity in DVR choices. It's kinda like seat belts on your car, it comes standard with it, but instead of using the manufactuers seat belts, you want to go ahead and spend more for an after market seat belt kit that does the same thing. How many people will actually do that? The content providers have eliminated the "DVR" gap. It's now standard. It's built into the STB, it's part of the cable package you sign up for. 

There is a huge market for diversity in TV sets. Big, small, LCD, Plasma, CRT etc etc etc... Can I get a smaller S3? Can I get an S3 built into the TV? TiVo can market it's "Features and Diversity" as Jmoag might suggest, but as I pointed out that market is shrinking for TiVo as content providers are able to offer more features with their own in house DVR's. 

As with many things, the marketplace has changed. In my oppinion I don't see TiVo lasting as an independant.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I don't know enough about the law suit to know if other DVRs infringe on tivo's patents.

We'll see if tivo decides to sue other DVR makers. A company that has a valid patent isn't guilty of being a monopoly, particularly if they license the technology to other companies.

Do a google search regarding gemstar. They were able to extract licensing fees for companies that use an interactive listing of programs.



wolflord11 said:


> How exactly does the NDS DVR infringe on Tivo Patents?
> 
> The in house DVR uses in house software too, not Tivo software, which is what most of the patents are for.
> 
> It would almost be like saying every single DVR out there is infringing on Tivo's patents, and if that was the case, then every other DVR company could sue Tivo for a monopoly.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

> _from the literary classic, "The Succubus":_
> THOMAS
> -and I yelled. I said, "What do you want from us, monster?!" And the monster bent down and said, "...Uh I need about tree-fitty."
> 
> ...


If we keep givin 'em tree-fitty, they'll keep coming back!


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

zalusky said:


> CHOICE gives us competition and cheap prices.


I got my HR20 for S&H so that blows a hole in your theory. No, I don't own it, but if I'm leaving D*, why would I want to keep it anyway?


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

tcb121 said:


> zalusky,
> 
> I'm all for choice, but the DVR is now standard equipment with the cable/sat/FiOS providers. The choice will be what provider to go with, not so much about diversity in DVR choices. It's kinda like seat belts on your car, it comes standard with it, but instead of using the manufactuers seat belts, you want to go ahead and spend more for an after market seat belt kit that does the same thing. How many people will actually do that? The content providers have eleminated the "DVR" gap. It's now standard. It's built into the STB, it's part of the cable package you sign up for.
> 
> ...


How would you feel if the output of the DVR had a proprietary copy protection protocol that said you could only use an LCD provided by DTV. No too long ago you could get receivers manufactured by Sony, JVC, Hughes, Tivo, and many more.
There was a market and now its gone.

I am not saying DTV would do that with displays but they just did it with receivers.

Its not about TIVO. Its about only having one supplier for set top boxes.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

bidger said:


> I got my HR20 for S&H so that blows a hole in your theory. No, I don't own it, but if I'm leaving D*, why would I want to keep it anyway?


Its not about even buying the boxes from other places like Best Buy. Its about only having one choice.

How would like if you walked into Verizon/Sprint/... and they said you only get one choice of phone. Would you be happy with that. They subsidize all of the phones to get you on a contract.

You got a free deal because retention probably gave to you out of fear of losing you. That is not an across the board deal.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

zalusky said:


> You got a free deal because retention probably gave to you out of fear of losing you. That is not an across the board deal.


I did call Retention, but I made no threats of leaving if I didn't get the deal. I only asked that the original offer that was made to me that June, a free HR10 with renewal of Sunday Ticket, be altered when I called in Sept. so that it was a HR20 instead of the HR10.

I never use cancellation as leverage. I still had over a year to go on my commitment when I made that call. And for awhile D* had locked down the deals, but I do see people posting that they're starting to get them again.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

jmoak said:


> If we keep givin 'em tree-fitty, they'll keep coming back!


 You couldn't be more right.

*tcb121* should indeed be ignored. If anyone is semi masochistic enough to read his posts since he signed up a few months ago they would quickly discern that this person hasnt a clue but does have an agenda that is focused on driving TiVo stock down.

As someone else noted; people hijack these threads now and then to say bad things about TiVo in an obvious attempt to make money by shorting the stock. They are very unscrupulous.

If you think I and others here are being harsh, go back and read what he's posted ...some of them are actually pretty funny (in a sad sort of way) if you can get past the poor grammar, misspellings and foolishness.

Going forward his postings should be ignored. "Giving em tree-fitty" will net zero return on your investment.


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

Richsadams,

Sorry about the grammar, Engineering major so I didn't focus on the written word.  

I'm not here to drive down TiVo stock. I'm here to get the pulse of the TiVo community. As you are aware I was a TiVo owner for 5 years and enjoyed my service with them. I made the switch to HD and the HR-20 and decided to see what all the fuss was on the boards with the S3. I jumped in and picked a side and have made valid points and personal remarks on the state of the "DVR" wars. I'm not saying I'm right or you are wrong, I'm just throwing out suggestions and alternative ways of thinking about DVR's and what I think lies ahead for TiVo. I work for Verizon, so I have an up close view of what Verizon thinks about TiVo and how we are making our DVR product better to eliminate the need for a third party company like TiVo. I'm glad you found some humor in my posts. A lot of them were meant to be funny.  
Overall I'm practical. I'm representing the voice of the guy on the fence thinking " Is it worth it to pay the premium for a TiVo. " I'm stimulating an alternative thought process to that person who likes TiVo but wants to save a few hundred dollars a year. I'm the voice for the company who says screw TiVo we can build our own DVR's. I'm the voice that puts things in a real perspective instead of wearing the TiVo glasses. It's not my fault that content providers are making DVR's standard equipment. It's not my fault that TiVo stock is low. It's not my fault that TiVo is losing market share every month. It is what it is. If someone reads my posts and dumps stock, or cancels TiVo, or has a second thought about purchasing an S3 then that is their choice. I was with TiVo when they were the only show in town, but now everyone has a DVR. I'm challenging that loyalty with my posts. I'm playing TiVo's hand out even though some can't see it that way. I'm posting things to evoke the reasons behind someones decision. What was that one feature that compels you to pay the premium. Is TiVo a status symbol to them? Do they have a vested interest? Do they feel that TiVo will ever be bested by another product? Do they think the S3 is still bleeding edge or has the competition caught up? If a better product were to emerge would they switch? 

I'm just having fun. I'm kicking the tires in here looking around and talking to the sales staff. (Jmoag, richsadams etc... ) So far I'm not compelled to jump back on the TiVo band wagon. I'm thinking better things are going to come from the in house DVR's and am posting the opinion for the readers to decide.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

tcb121 said:


> I'm not here to drive down TiVo stock. It's not my fault that TiVo stock is low. It's not my fault that TiVo is losing market share every month. It is what it is. If someone reads my posts and dumps stock, or cancels TiVo, or has a second thought about purchasing an S3 then that is their choice.


 Going against my own advice...thank you for confirming exactly what I said previously. Now go away.


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## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

richsadams,

Hey, I'm just asking people to think. Playing a little devils advocate.

Buy TiVo stock.  

Does that make you happy?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

It's a shame that a few guys can really put the sour in a forum. I'm disappointed that they don't have enough decency to discuss the products openly instead of trying to hijack the forum and jam something down our throat that most people could care less about. 

Most of us enjoy our Tivos and want the company to succeed so that we can continue to enjoy improvements to new products that Tivo may offer, but a select few want Tivo to go away. I don't mind them thinking that, but I don't like them coming in here and telling me how to think.

I hate getting involved in personalities, but I've had my share of these guys and frankly am tired of them spouting off. It's clear they don't have anything positive to offer. 

I've enjoyed this forum for several years and have gotten lots of help. It's been very valuable in my enjoyment of tv. In fact, I can say that reading this forum has changed the way I watch and enjoy tv again. I feel like I have control again and tv is something I enjoy a lot. So, I'm very grateful for the help I've gotten from the experience. I just hate to see a few guys make it become something that would keep others away from because they've turned us sour to the experience and in the end, have driven us away from something we enjoyed.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

SullyND said:


> Note the Echostar case revolves around a hardware issue, not software. To say that most of TiVo's patents are for software is not necessarily accurate. Infact, I doubt TiVo's software is patented (you patent ideas, not code).


Thats abit like saying Microsoft does not have a patent for the Windows OS......


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

RS4 said:


> It's a shame that a few guys can really put the sour in a forum. I'm disappointed that they don't have enough decency to discuss the products openly instead of trying to hijack the forum and jam something down our throat that most people could care less about.
> 
> Most of us enjoy our Tivos and want the company to succeed so that we can continue to enjoy improvements to new products that Tivo may offer, but a select few want Tivo to go away. I don't mind them thinking that, but I don't like them coming in here and telling me how to think.
> 
> ...


 +1 :up:


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

RS4 said:


> It's a shame that a few guys can really put the sour in a forum. I'm disappointed that they don't have enough decency to discuss the products openly instead of trying to hijack the forum and jam something down our throat that most people could care less about.
> 
> Most of us enjoy our Tivos and want the company to succeed so that we can continue to enjoy improvements to new products that Tivo may offer, but a select few want Tivo to go away. I don't mind them thinking that, but I don't like them coming in here and telling me how to think.
> 
> ...


+2 :up: :up:


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## mpar1 (Feb 14, 2005)

Sad as it may seem, this thread has given me renewed hope. I was facing a decision in the next year to drop my HR10-250 for D*'s box or switch to cable and buy an S3 plus incur a monthly fee. Perhaps a third, much more attractive option will be available. I would definitely stay with D* if an MPEG-4 HD Tivo box is available.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

mpar1 said:


> Sad as it may seem, this thread has given me renewed hope. I was facing a decision in the next year to drop my HR10-250 for D*'s box or switch to cable and buy an S3 plus incur a monthly fee. Perhaps a third, much more attractive option will be available. I would definitely stay with D* if an MPEG-4 HD Tivo box is available.


Well. We will ZOON ZOON ZEE!!


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

mpar1 said:


> Sad as it may seem, this thread has given me renewed hope. I was facing a decision in the next year to drop my HR10-250 for D*'s box or switch to cable and buy an S3 plus incur a monthly fee. Perhaps a third, much more attractive option will be available. I would definitely stay with D* if an MPEG-4 HD Tivo box is available.


In my case the savings I'll get from bundling cable and internet will more than offset the additional TiVo fee. It's hard to believe that things have changed so much that cable will actually offer better value and features for me. I've been a DirecTV subscriber since near the beginning so it's sad to see.

The worm has turned. Cable card is opening a whole new set of choices for cable subscribers, TiVo included. DirecTV is now a closed platform with only the features they choose to offer. Unless Liberty comes in and makes a sharp change in direction, that's not going to change. I'm not going to hold my breath.


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## 73cuda (May 21, 2007)

RS4 said:


> It's a shame that a few guys can really put the sour in a forum. I'm disappointed that they don't have enough decency to discuss the products openly instead of trying to hijack the forum and jam something down our throat that most people could care less about.
> 
> Most of us enjoy our Tivos and want the company to succeed so that we can continue to enjoy improvements to new products that Tivo may offer, but a select few want Tivo to go away. I don't mind them thinking that, but I don't like them coming in here and telling me how to think.
> 
> ...


I haven't been here for years, recently joined but have been a big TiVo fan for years. I couldn't have stated it better ! Good job :up:  :up:


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

73cuda said:


> I haven't been here for years, recently joined but have been a big TiVo fan for years. I couldn't have stated it better ! Good job :up:  :up:


 Welcome back!


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## dalesd (Aug 2, 2001)

Celusil said:


> 90% of The reason I went with dtv as opposed to cable 5 years ago is they had a 2 tuner dtivo at the time, the picture quality was better and always best and the fee is in fact cheaper than standalone. I have no idea the percentage of D* users that are also dvr users and by extension also tivo users, I'd be interested if anyone has stats on that. For me it's tivo or nothing and if I can no longer get tivo from dtv then comcast or some other provider will have to do as comcast with tivo (I hope) is better than Dtv without tivo.


+1
I'm juat waiting to see if the ComcasTiVo is the read deal, or if Comcast's modifications have degraded it too much.

There's no HD TiVo for DTV now or in the foreseeable future, so it looks like my days as a DTV customer are numbered.

DTV called me last month and asked if I want to sign on for another year. I told them what I wrote above.

I sent DTV an email yesterday explaining the same thing.

Maybe they'll get the message that TiVo is important to their customers.


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## CsrLiz344 (Apr 12, 2004)

nrc said:


> In my case the savings I'll get from bundling cable and internet will more than offset the additional TiVo fee. It's hard to believe that things have changed so much that cable will actually offer better value and features for me. I've been a DirecTV subscriber since near the beginning so it's sad to see.
> 
> The worm has turned. Cable card is opening a whole new set of choices for cable subscribers, TiVo included. DirecTV is now a closed platform with only the features they choose to offer. Unless Liberty comes in and makes a sharp change in direction, that's not going to change. I'm not going to hold my breath.


I thought the same thing. Nice price package, every channel available, DVR, internet-all in a nice bundle.
I was wrong. The DVR sucked, the channels were crap, and when my year came up to re-rate me, they wouldn't touch the deal they gave me to go to them in the first place.
So, here I am back at D-TV, and find I have missed it. I still have my 2 R-10's, and they are working fine, I love TiVo compared to whatever garbage machine they use, and will always, somehow, run a "real" TiVo.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

CsrLiz344 said:


> So, here I am back at D-TV, and find I have missed it. I still have my 2 R-10's, and they are working fine, I love TiVo compared to whatever garbage machine they use, and will always, somehow, run a "real" TiVo.


How come you didn't run a "real" TiVo when you were with Cable?


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

mtchamp said:


> Some official hope that DirecTV's new owners will be selling TiVo again.


I'm sure these issues probably have been covered, but I don't believe they technically stopped selling them, did they? Just buried 'em.

But I don't really care - all I would like is a good software upgrade.


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## dalesd (Aug 2, 2001)

dalesd said:


> +1
> There's no HD TiVo for DTV now or in the foreseeable future, so it looks like my days as a DTV customer are numbered.
> 
> DTV called me last month and asked if I want to sign on for another year. I told them what I wrote above.
> ...


Someone from DTV got my email and called me. He asked if there was a feature missing from their HDDVR, and why I specifically needed TiVo. He was trying to sell me on the DTV HDDVR. I wasn't buying. I explained that TiVo will be in my upgrade path to HD, and if DTV had a HD TiVo, I'd stay. Otherwise, I'm looking elsewhere.

He mentioned Liberty Media, and that he had heard rumors that maybe TiVo would be back. Sounds like he either read this thread or the Yahoo story.

Anyway, my opinion has been noted, and when I drop them, they'll know why.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

dalesd said:


> Someone from DTV got my email and called me. He asked if there was a feature missing from their HDDVR, and why I specifically needed TiVo. He was trying to sell me on the DTV HDDVR. I wasn't buying. I explained that TiVo will be in my upgrade path to HD, and if DTV had a HD TiVo, I'd stay. Otherwise, I'm looking elsewhere.
> 
> He mentioned Liberty Media, and that he had heard rumors that maybe TiVo would be back. Sounds like he either read this thread or the Yahoo story.
> 
> Anyway, my opinion has been noted, and when I drop them, they'll know why.


 Well done. :up: Most people don't take the time to let companies know why they aren't going to use them anymore...and most companies don't really care or put very little effort behind it; usually lip service.

Business models repeatedly show that the cost of replacing a customer is about 2.5x more (or higher) than keeping one. It never ceases to amaze me how little companies put into customer retention strategies and how much they spend on marketing designed to drive trial (gaining new customers). They end up with a revolving door and it makes no sense.

So it's good to see that you took the time to make your point _and _ that they took the time to find out why youre leaving.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

Joe Siegler said:


> I'm sure these issues probably have been covered, but I don't believe they technically stopped selling them, did they? Just buried 'em.


And bury them, they did. Remember the last scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark?


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

OMG  Do you suppose they still have them?!


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

richsadams said:


> OMG  Do you suppose they still have them?!


No, I think it is very unlikely. The short version of the story is this:

Last November, we found the depot where all broken and trade-in TiVo units for DirecTV are sent. Based upon our conversations, they had THOUSANDS of these units, and at DirecTV's direction, they were going to be sold to a salvage company for scrap. We discussed the possibility of purchasing some, or even all of them (at prices significantly higher than what any salvage operation would typically pay), but DirecTV was just not interested.

Not really surprising to me, however. The agenda to phase out the TiVo boxes has been well underway for a long long time, and I'm sure its priority is much higher than any short term revenue impact; this situation was just more proof of that.

Too bad though, we definitely could have used them in a variety of situations.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

tivoupgrade said:


> No, I think it is very unlikely. The short version of the story is this:
> 
> Last November, we found the depot where all broken and trade-in TiVo units for DirecTV are sent. Based upon our conversations, they had THOUSANDS of these units, and at DirecTV's direction, they were going to be sold to a salvage company for scrap. We discussed the possibility of purchasing some, or even all of them (at prices significantly higher than what any salvage operation would typically pay), but DirecTV was just not interested.
> 
> ...


 Tthat is too bad. Perhaps after Liberty takes over they'll be found in some dusty old warehouse down by the docks.


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## john-duncan-yoyo (Oct 13, 2004)

Too bad you just couldn't have a salvage company to make a deal for the units and sell them back to you.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

john-duncan-yoyo said:


> Too bad you just couldn't have a salvage company to make a deal for the units and sell them back to you.


Who wants these anyway. I want a S3 directivo HD quad tuner with replaceable Hard drive. Or a sata port or usb that takes external drives. But it is still a tivo  i dont want D*'s in house crap r15,h20 or what ever they come up with next. If it dont have this on it







I don wan it!!


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

+1


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## dalesd (Aug 2, 2001)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> Who wants these anyway. I want a S3 directivo HD quad tuner with replaceable Hard drive. Or a sata port or usb that takes external drives. But it is still a tivo  i dont want D*'s in house crap r15,h20 or what ever they come up with next.


D*'s in house crap?


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

i admit h21 is not as cool as h20 is


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> Who wants these anyway. I want a S3 directivo HD quad tuner with replaceable Hard drive. Or a sata port or usb that takes external drives. But it is still a tivo  i dont want D*'s in house crap r15,h20 or what ever they come up with next. If it dont have this on it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well if you want a Series 3 with Tivo software, theres always the Series 3 from Tivo. It pretty much has all your looking for.....

Just remember to ditch Directv and move to Cable while your at it. Remember we cant always have everything we want now can we


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

john-duncan-yoyo said:


> Too bad you just couldn't have a salvage company to make a deal for the units and sell them back to you.


Or, ahm, just SAY you are or create a salvage company!


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

wolflord11 said:


> Remember we cant always have everything we want now can we


But then again, *"Patience is a virtue!"* or *"Good things come to those who wait!"*. 

I foresaw the dual tuner standalone TiVo in 2000 and predicted its release in 2005, but it wasnt released until 2006.

_Ill go ahead and stick my foot in my mouth; I currently foresee a new MPEG4 HD DirecTiVo and predict its release for late 2008 or early 2009._ 

_And here goes that foot again; the reason for a new DirecTiVo, the new owners of DirecTV see the value in VALUE-ADD, and their current DVR will never reach the level of VALUE-ADD that they need to compete with cable._

"Patience is a virtue. The ability to wait for something without excessive frustration is a valuable character trait. The proverb has been traced back to 'Piers Plowman' (1377) by William Langland and is similar to the Latin, Maxima enim..patientia virtus (Patience is the greatest virtue) and the French, Patience est une grant vertu. (Patience is a great value.) Some ten years after Langland, Chaucer wrote in 'The Canterbury Tales' (1386) that 'Patience is a high virtue.' Sometimes followed by the wry rejoinder 'but virtue can hurt you.' First cited in the United States in 1724 in the 'Works of Thomas Chalkley' (1766)..."


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Well... I have had one or two predictions correct... and that was even before I had the type of contacts I have now...

My prediction: You will never see another TiVo powered DirecTV receiver... unless TiVo is purchased by the parent company of DirecTV Group. Even then I don't think it will be a TiVo as you all know it, but some of it's core patented features will be included.

Liberty is already looking to "SELL" DirecTV even before they own it (see the recent articles on how they want to buy it ALL up, and then re-release it as a standalone company).

I just don't see the "value-added" that would justify the multi-million dollar effort that would have to take place to get a new MPEG-4 DTiVo to market, that would over come any issues they had in the first place, and get all the features in there that they want... 

Such as compatible Interactive Engine, Compatibility to DirecTV VOD (not Amazon, Netflix, or other), Compatibility with their MRV plans....

And then to have enough "value-add" to offset the complexity that would introduce to the support TIER of DirecTV. 

Could you imagine some of the calls.... "What do you mean that the DVR you sent me, can't do X,Y,Z... and that I need the other... And then if I go with the other, I lose feature Q,R,S.... And I have to pay a premium to use that particular DVR? Why can't you just have 1 DVR..."

Actually... those calls have already occured, and have going back to when UltimateTV was available and TiVo was there... both units had different features, and Ultimate you had to pay an increased fee for.... So which one became the dominate DVR at the time on DirecTV?

And even then that "value-add" will still have to be great enough to offset all that... and then still be at a level, that it is enough value-add to make it worth wild.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Let's say it cost $100 million to develop a Tivo mpeg4 for D*. What's that is D* customers? My guess is about 100,000. You think D* could keep 100,000 customers that might leave if there is no Tivo replacement? Of course.

I think the answer is much more political then economical. I have no idea how many of the 3 million DTivos are HD, but I would guess there are still a lot of people like me who do not want the replacement box that DirecTV is currently offering. That means we would be willing to wait for the Tivo mpeg4 box and stay with D*.

DirecTV has been dealing with all kinds of boxes for years, so they should be used to it. It just doesn't make sense to me why DirecTV is willing to potentially lose all of these customers - especially with the reputation they have with their new box.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

Must be something to the rumor and talk. Earl is visiting us again.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> Let's say it cost $100 million to develop a Tivo mpeg4 for D*.


That's an absolutely ridiculous guestimate.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

20TIL6 said:


> Must be something to the rumor and talk. Earl is visiting us again.


Nope... just trying to make sure the "wheel" doesn't get rolling to fast with incorrect speculations.

I also never stopped reading... just stopped posting for a while.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> Nope... just trying to make sure the "wheel" doesn't get rolling to fast with incorrect speculations.
> 
> I also never stopped reading... just stopped posting for a while.


 Well thank you for caring about our wheels of speculation. I know the speculations and thoughts here might result in a crushing, depression-inducing blow from which many members might never recover.

Thank you for keeping us TiVo lovers so grounded.

If I was as giving as you I would do the same and ground the thoughts and speculation over on the dbstalk board that the R15 and HR20 will ever be a worthy DVR.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> Let's say it cost $100 million to develop a Tivo mpeg4 for D*. What's that is D* customers? My guess is about 100,000. You think D* could keep 100,000 customers that might leave if there is no Tivo replacement? Of course.


$100 million for a lousy 100,000 customers?

Heck, even $10 million for 100,000 customers is absurd. They sign up 100,000 customers every few weeks. Why would they spend millions to keep a number they'll sign up new anyway in a few short weeks?

That's what people don't get.

Even if it was a crazy high number like half a million people will leave if no Tivo, they will sign that many people back up. Besides the fact that after 2 years in development and those Tivo users not able to view the HD in the meantime, they would have either left or converted so again, what's the point in doing it in the first place? By 2009 the people that can't live without Tivo will have long made a decision one way or another.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

20TIL6 said:


> If I was as giving as you I would do the same and ground the thoughts and speculation over on the dbstalk board that the R15 and HR20 will ever be a worthy DVR.


Hmm... funny... didn't know that was a rumor, or was thought to be one.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Hmm... funny...


What are your prospects with the new ownership coming in? Will your ... whatever you prefer to call your DirecTV ... people ... likely survive?

Obviously DVR fans with any remaining interest in DirecTV, faint though it may be, are hoping for big changes.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

The real question is how DTV can compete with SDV and OnDemand.

Sure they might hook an ethernet jack to the back of their units and download similar to Tivo and Unbox/Tivocast but thats not real competition. Also the problem with that solution is the inconsistency of the broadband connection.

IE if you have cable modem, you probably have cable because of the pricing structure. 
If you have DSL you will have customer with wildly varying speeds.

I just don't see how they can compete. Now if Liberty sells them to ATT, I suppose ATT can use it as a backup for marketing to rural customers but you cant really do SDV/onDemand over satellite because even with spotbeams your broadcasting to a large customer base. 

With IPTV via FIOS or UVerse you only send what you need and with Comcast its local neighborhood broadcast casting for SDV.

Some might say that the new satellites give you more HD bandwidth than their are broadcasters. That still doesn't support the large choice you get with ondemand.

I don't believe DTV wants to be in the model where they say you can and you can't and by the way if you can you better pony up for the expensive broadband pipe.

Cable advertises as one wire does it all and the same with FIOS and UVerse.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

zalusky said:


> Now if Liberty sells them to ATT, I suppose ATT can use it as a backup for marketing to rural customers


Other than a couple of (vulnerable) sports contracts DirecTV holds, why would ATT have any interest, over their current backup?

There's a lot of emotion in business decisions. Murdoch giving up on DirecTV, calling it a "turd bird" and then unloading it, I think is a challenge to the new owners. I think they'll do a full court press to save it. Draconian management purges, new directions.

Personally I think it's too late, but I'll watch with interest.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Redux said:


> What are your prospects with the new ownership coming in? Will your ... whatever you prefer to call your DirecTV ... people ... likely survive?
> 
> Obviously DVR fans with any remaining interest in DirecTV, faint though it may be, are hoping for big changes.


My prospects... you will barely notice a change when Liberty "takes over".
And ya... I have no worries about my contacts there.... but thanks for asking.

Those hoping for "big changes"...... so long as they are comfortable with a let down... no harm in hoping...


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## mrbogusbaxter (Dec 4, 2005)

a most reliable source dials the 411 on this one...

talks are heavy, preliminary agreements have been discussed and just possibly nearer than one thinks. 

If the marriage does happen, a full take over of the HD boxes would rest the uppers at DTV and for sure please a majority of customers who have very loudly spoken, 

let me rephrase that .....

loudly screamed on what **** DVR's customers were forced to replaced their original TIVO's with.

Happy with thier new company, anyone at DTV will tell you they took a bloodbath
on distributing the new boxes of junk... 

Thus being .... why ALL receivers from DTV are now LEASED. 
Leased...but still have to shell out a few hundred $$$ to take hold of them.

Just think, elimate the good, distribute the bad, eliminate the ownership, but dont eliinate the pricing.... 

DTV really fu**ed up on this one, thats why talks started again. 

Fingers Crossed


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Nope... just trying to make sure the "wheel" doesn't get rolling to fast with incorrect speculations.
> 
> I also never stopped reading... just stopped posting for a while.


OH!! You Little Lurker You!! Glad your back!


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> My prediction: You will never see another TiVo powered DirecTV receiver... unless TiVo is purchased by the parent company of DirecTV Group. Even then I don't think it will be a TiVo as you all know it, but some of it's core patented features will be included.





tbeckner said:


> _Ill go ahead and stick my foot in my mouth; I currently foresee a new MPEG4 HD DirecTiVo and predict its release for late 2008 or early 2009._
> 
> _And here goes that foot again; the reason for a new DirecTiVo, the new owners of DirecTV see the value in VALUE-ADD, and their current DVR will never reach the level of VALUE-ADD that they need to compete with cable._


You realize that both of our predictions are about as accurate as "Punxsutawney Phil's Forecasts", no offence to Phil's capability. 

Although I do stand by my statement that DirecTV's current DVR will never be able to compete with TiVo for VALUE-ADD.

Companies do what makes money for them and American compaines do what makes money for them for the SHORT RUN, to hell with the future.

But if you are right about "Liberty is already looking to "SELL" DirecTV even before they own it", then either DirecTV is in BIG TROUBLE and so are we and DirecTV could be in a slow long-term DEATH SPIRAL and it is likely never going to get any better than it currently is, or Liberty agreed to the trade to just unload Murdoch's shares/Murdoch's agreed to the trade to get the shares and unload the "TURD BIRD."

_The phrase that comes to my mind about the current state of DirecTV is *"its all downhill from here"*._

Interesting prediction this last week and of course this same prediction was made last year, "DVR Penetration Will Top 50% in four years".


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

tbeckner said:


> Although I do stand by my statement that DirecTV's current DVR will never be able to compete with TiVo for VALUE-ADD.


Please explain this statement. I looked up "value-added" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added), but am not sure where you're going with this.

Are you saying DIRECTV will not be more profitable with the HR20 than TiVo will be with some other DVR? Or that DIRECTV will not be more profitable with the HR20 than they would be if they stuck with TiVo?

Or something else entirely?

Thanks.



> ... or Liberty agreed to the trade to just unload Murdoch's shares/Murdoch's agreed to the trade to get the shares and unload the "TURD BIRD."


Based on everything I've read, Murdoch certainly wanted to quickly unload DIRECTV. I can't speak on Malone's motives, but he most likely will make a lot of money if he also quickly sells DIRECTV, so who knows.



> _The phrase that comes to my mind about the current state of DirecTV is *"its all downhill from here"*._


Funny, the phrase that comes to my mind is, "Every thing's coming up roses." VOD is on the way, new HD channels are on the way, possibly new programming packages are on the way. I'm loving life.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

See, Liberty/Malone owned too much of Murdoch's News Corp, enough to make a hostile takeover bid possible in the future. So Murdoch traded DirecTV to Malone in exchange for the shares in News Corp. This secured Murdoch's main company, the only thing he cares about.

As for Malone, just look up recent news reports and you'll see he's already looking to sell DirecTV as soon as he controls it. For anyone thinking that Liberty is going to make any major changes with DirecTV isn't thinking about things correctly.

The sale to Liberty won't be final until later this year. If Liberty indeed turns around and sells it themselves that could be another year or so, depending on what kind of tax hit they'll take. They certainly aren't going to make major changes or shift focus in that time period. If they plan to actually keep DirecTV it will typically be 6-12 months before anything happens while they figure out the status quo and so forth.

Basically by the time anything can happen the entire MPEG4 transition will be complete. *IF* Liberty still controls DirecTV and they deside that Tivo is in their best interest we all know it will take at least a couple years to get a product to market. So at best you're looking at 3 years down the road (add another year to that if Liberty sells DirecTV). In the meantime if you are "holding out" you will have been relegated to no HD other then what you get via OTA. I guess if that's good enough then by all means...


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Cable/Tivo will then have to fill the gap.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> Companies do what makes money for them and American compaines do what makes money for them for the SHORT RUN, to hell with the future.
> 
> But if you are right about "Liberty is already looking to "SELL" DirecTV even before they own it", then either DirecTV is in BIG TROUBLE and so are we and DirecTV could be in a slow long-term DEATH SPIRAL and it is likely never going to get any better than it currently is, or Liberty agreed to the trade to just unload Murdoch's shares/Murdoch's agreed to the trade to get the shares and unload the "TURD BIRD."


An article to what I was referring to...
http://www.reuters.com/article/innovationNews/idUSN1230000620070712

From my understanding of this (and the other similar articles), 
It seems to be more of the case, where Liberty may want to buy all the outstanding stock at a good price...

And then re-issue it (most likely in bigger chunks, to make each individual stock) more valuable...

IMHO... it is nothing more then a "market" thing, not so much the future of buisness.

Just because DirecTV didn't fit into Malone's goals... doesn't mean it doesn't fit into someone else's goals of what they want.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> See, Liberty/Malone owned too much of Murdoch's News Corp, enough to make a hostile takeover bid possible in the future. So Murdoch traded DirecTV to Malone in exchange for the shares in News Corp. This secured Murdoch's main company, the only thing he cares about.
> 
> As for Malone, just look up recent news reports and you'll see he's already looking to sell DirecTV as soon as he controls it. For anyone thinking that Liberty is going to make any major changes with DirecTV isn't thinking about things correctly.
> 
> ...


Gosh Bon, you take all the fun out of things  I much prefer Tim's theory as it resonates with my own brand of wishful thinking. That helps me sleep at night...

...I'm hoping there is a skunkworks project inside DirecTV to provide a PCMCIA based card that will work with DirecTV's system in the Series3; available for this Holiday Season!!! I mean hey, if we are going to dream, let's DREAM BIG! (for those of you who might think I actually know something, for the record, I DON'T).

Seriously though, all good points. I hope discussions like this are truly representative of the market as a whole and that DirecTV ultimately does move back in the TiVo direction. Unfortunately, it really does seem as if a decision like that might be too little, too late; and its unclear whether DirecTV is really in a death roll, or will do well (after all, they did just fine without TiVo for years, too).

I think there is one thing most of us would agree upon though, DirecTV without Murdoch certainly keeps more doors open to a TiVo future than not...


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

tivoupgrade said:


> ...I'm hoping there is a skunkworks project inside DirecTV to provide a PCMCIA based card that will work with DirecTV's system in the Series3; available for this Holiday Season!!! I mean hey, if we are going to dream, let's DREAM BIG! (for those of you who might think I actually know something, for the record, I DON'T).


There is a device under development to provide DirecTV tuning to Intel Viiv systems via the USB port. Whether or not DirecTV would make available sufficient technical info to a third party like TiVo to use to create a driver for their own equipment would then be the question. But at least at that point the hardware to do so would exist, even if it were as an add-on device to a TiVo DVR rather than built in, and it would be purely a software issue to implement.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

drew2k said:


> Please explain this statement. I looked up "value-added" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added), but am not sure where you're going with this.


"VALUE-ADD" can also mean the value added to a product in support of the purchaser or user that you might describe as "UTILITY VALUE-ADD", not the usually described economics based VALUE-ADD, which is described by an economics major at wiki.

It appears to me that the internally developed DirecTV DVR (SD or HD) will never have the same "UTILITY VALUE-ADD" added by DirecTV that TiVo has already added to their Standalone products many years ago for multiple reasons, simply timing (multiple sales of DirecTV (Murdoch, Malone, see above), so the original reasons for an internally developed product are fading away, and over the long haul the TCO of a constantly re-developing product is no longer economically viable for DirecTV to continue to support (economic based).

Even though other reasons were given to support the development of the internally developed DVR, IMHO most of those reasons were smoke screens for the biggest reason of all, EGO. And now that the EGO (Murdoch and family, including his son) is going away (via the dumping of the TURD BIRD), there is very little reason for DirecTV to continue the suffering. For the short run, the internally developed DVR will continue, but IMHO the hand writing in already on the wall. I foresaw the TURD BIRD situation, not in detail, but in principle, and even though DirecTV can and will continue to flourish; the long-term outlook is not BRIGHT, which is one of many reasons that Murdoch dumped the TURD BIRD.

Technically, current satellite delivery of OD (On-Demand) video (product) has far too many limitations and the world is working its way towards OD, but then again I see a world (many years from now) far different than the current video content delivery world of today and even though DirecTV will play its part over the next decade, it will not have the technical advantage to be a leader.

With all of that said, I still believe in DirecTV for the short haul, but for the long-term, IMVHO, it really isn't going to get "any better than it currently is".


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

Malone's liberty group takes over DTV in about 12 hours. Could be some interesting annoucements this week.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Yep, it would be great if they could get back to treating the customer like a customer. Oh, and bringing back Tivo would be a positive step as well.



BlackBetty said:


> Malone's liberty group takes over DTV in about 12 hours. Could be some interesting annoucements this week.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

BlackBetty said:


> Malone's liberty group takes over DTV in about 12 hours. Could be some interesting annoucements this week.


In what regards?

To the final formalities of the stock swap completing?
Or the notion that TiVo may come back to DirecTV?

On the later point... wanna bet?


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## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> On the later point... wanna bet?


I'm just looking forward to Thursday - DirecTV's Investor Day. Then we'll know.

Bonanza


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I'd put money on..... D* being D*. Tivo is not going to be back.



ebonovic said:


> In what regards?
> Or the notion that TiVo may come back to DirecTV?
> 
> On the later point... wanna bet?


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## Cutty (Sep 8, 2007)

More good news:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/658...-and-tivo-renewed-relationship?source=i_email


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Cutty said:


> More good news:
> 
> http://seekingalpha.com/article/658...-and-tivo-renewed-relationship?source=i_email


Interesting, this part...

"We believe the new DTV management may be more amenable to renewing a relationship with TiVo. The TiVo HD-DVR offers several advantages over the NDS DVRs, including better user interface, wireless access can provide quasi-VOD service, ad revs would be incremental, and TiVo's HD-DVR is already cheaper than NDS' HD-DVR."


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

I can't believe anything in this article since DirecTV doesn't use NDS DVR wise for anything other then the old R15 and the R16 based off it. The HD DVRs have nothing to do with NDS.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

Liberty group (which is taking over DTV) is a major stake holder in TiVo. Same logic applies for using TiVo once Liberty takes over as the logic for Murduch using NDS.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

BlackBetty said:


> Liberty group (which is taking over DTV) is a major stake holder in TiVo. Same logic applies for using TiVo once Liberty takes over as the logic for Murduch using NDS.


Except that TiVo actually has the expertise to pull off what NDS failed at doing.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

fasTLane said:


> Interesting, this part...
> 
> "We believe the new DTV management may be more amenable to renewing a relationship with TiVo. The TiVo HD-DVR offers several advantages over the NDS DVRs, including better user interface, wireless access can provide quasi-VOD service, ad revs would be incremental, and TiVo's HD-DVR is already cheaper than NDS' HD-DVR."


That just shows how little the analyst understands of the DirecTV DVRs.

The HR2* platform is not NDS derived or powered.
NDS has no part in the HR2* past the Access Security card aspects.

NDS is only involved in the R15/R16 platform (with regards to DVRs)

That analysis does through a mention in there about ReplayTV though... which in fact is a BIG factor in the picture.

And where is the TiVo-HD cheaper then the "NDS" HD-DVR.. (I put NDS in quotes as that is incorrect)

The price for the HR2* receivers is $199 before any rebates or discounts.
TiVo.Com lists the TiVoHD at $299. (Then of course you need to factor in DVR Subscription rates... $5.99 on DirecTV for unlimited boxes, ranging costs for TiVoHD based on pre-pay, multiple unit discount)


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

dswallow said:


> Except that TiVo actually has the expertise to pull off what NDS failed at doing.


In what aspects?


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> The price for the HR2* receivers is $199 before any rebates or discounts.
> TiVo.Com lists the TiVoHD at $299.


Neither of those prices reflect an accurate cost of the box. One is a "lease upgrade fee". The other is a purchase price subsidized by a required service agreement.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

CrashHD said:


> Neither of those prices reflect an accurate cost of the box. One is a "lease upgrade fee". The other is a purchase price subsidized by a required service agreement.


Why isn't it "accurate"...

Do you not have to pay that amount to get the unit in your home?

The $199 is the price, regardless if it is an upgrade to a previous unit... or a new unit to your home.... in fact typically in an "upgrade" scenerio, the cost is even lower.

So even if it is a "lease" what are you going to do with an HR2* if you discontinue service? What is the "resale" value going to be on that unit?

Same goes for TiVo-HD... what will it cost you to switch over to a different carrier... what if you go to a carrier that doesn't support TiVoHD...
What is the resale value of an TiVo-HD? ect.

And yes... the "overall cost" of having either unit, is much more then just the first price to get the equiment into your home.

But still you can't say the TiVo-HD is "cheaper" then the HR2* units.
If so... how do you calculate that it is "cheaper"


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> In what aspects?


All aspects. Since NDS failed to produce an HD DVR or even a reliable SD DVR for DirecTV.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> But still you can't say the TiVo-HD is "cheaper" then the HR2* units.
> If so... how do you calculate that it is "cheaper"


Presumably you'd compare production costs.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

shibby191 said:


> I can't believe anything in this article since DirecTV doesn't use NDS DVR wise for anything other then *all of their SD DVR's, which represent a HUGE majority of their DVR sales*. The HD DVRs have nothing to do with NDS.


FYP.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> Why isn't it "accurate"...


A DirecTV HD DVR costs $199 and requires over $1,000 in programming commitment. The $299 (which btw, you can get for much cheaper) TiVo HD requires only about a $140 programming commitment and can then receive free OTA programming. You can then resell it and recoup 1/3 to 1/2 of it's value.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

If a DirecTV DVR breaks, DirecTV will replace it free (other than nominal shipping fee.) After the 90 day warranty expires, TiVo will charge $100 or more to "repair" (replace) the box.

The programming commitment is a red herring in my view and you're comparing apples to oranges. The fee paid to TiVo is not a "programming commitment", it is a service fee for DVR service. That's $140/year for TiVo, $72/year for a DirecTV DVR. Got two DVRs? $260/year for TiVo, $132/year for DirecTV DVR.

If you want to make a point in favor of TiVo, you could say that the TiVo can be used with multiple programming providers (assuming you have a choice).


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> A DirecTV HD DVR costs $199 and requires over $1,000 in programming commitment. The $299 (which btw, you can get for much cheaper) TiVo HD requires only about a $140 programming commitment and can then receive free OTA programming. You can then resell it and recoup 1/3 to 1/2 of it's value.


How does it "require" $1000 in programming cost.

The minium package is family choice, dvr fee, and hd access.

That is about $40 a month... for 24 months. sub $600.

So you can predict the resale value of an TiVo-HD from a year from now?
What if TiVo doesn't exist a year from now... what is the resale value then?

As for the $140 programming commitment... that is just for TiVo service.
So unless you are going OTA only, you still need to pay a carrier for their services... which may or may not carry a commitment.... (and the one year is actually $129 according to TiVo.com)... so if you are going to try and compare those... let's compare the same things.

You also need to factor in if you want another DVR in the home...
What does it cost on DirecTV? $4.99 monthly fee for the mirroring (which is the same regardless if it is a DVR or not). It appears that it is $100 for a year on TiVo.Com for a 2nd box.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

dswallow said:


> Presumably you'd compare production costs.


Why would you compare production costs?

Do customers pay the prodution costs for the units? Or do they pay the stated costs to obtain the hardware.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

dswallow said:


> All aspects. Since NDS failed to produce an HD DVR or even a reliable SD DVR for DirecTV.


How can they "fail" something, they where never contracted to do?

As for a reliable SD-DVR? Matter of opinion.
The R15/R16 platform is very reliable IMHO...

I have been using one for over 26 months... and have had less issues with it, then I did with the R10 that it replaced....

It does it jobs... It records what I tell it to, it plays it back.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> How does it "require" $1000 in programming cost.
> 
> The minium package is family choice, dvr fee, and hd access.
> 
> That is about $40 a month... for 24 months. sub $600.


Your math isn't very good. $40 x 24= $960. (29.99 + 9.99), then you left out the DVR fee, which adds what, $5.99*24=$143.76?

So over $1,000, yes.



ebonovic said:


> So you can predict the resale value of an TiVo-HD from a year from now?
> What if TiVo doesn't exist a year from now... what is the resale value then?


It's pretty easy to guess that the TiVo HD will be worth more than $0, which is what a direcTV dvr is worth after 2 years because you don't own it.



ebonovic said:


> As for the $140 programming commitment... that is just for TiVo service.
> So unless you are going OTA only, you still need to pay a carrier for their services... which may or may not carry a commitment.... (and the one year is actually $129 according to TiVo.com)... so if you are going to try and compare those... let's compare the same things.


My cable company requires no commitment. I have OTA and limited basic, so I pay $3/mo more for that with my cable modem. I guess you can throw that in if you want, $33/year. Regardless, because most cable companies don't require a commitment it is nice to know that you can cancel for awhile and go OTA only if you fall on hard times.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> Your math isn't very good. $40 x 24= $960. (29.99 + 9.99), then you left out the DVR fee, which adds what, $5.99*24=$143.76? So over $1,000, yes.
> 
> It's pretty easy to guess that the TiVo HD will be worth more than $0, which is what a direcTV dvr is worth after 2 years because you don't own it.
> 
> My cable company requires no commitment. I have OTA and limited basic, so I pay $3/mo more for that with my cable modem. I guess you can throw that in if you want, $33/year. Regardless, because most cable companies don't require a commitment it is nice to know that you can cancel for awhile and go OTA only if you fall on hard times.


Sorry did it for one year in the calculation, as to compare with your $140 number you quoted for one year. And you are correct... I didn't add the values correct.. $30 for family choice, $10 for HD, $6 for DVR (to eliminate the penies) $46 a month is the min commitment. $552 per year...

And if you fall on hard times... it is a pro-rated cancel fee... so however you slice it... the max you are the "hook" for is $450.. which reduces by $18.75 each month.

And as for the resale value of the TiVo? What if TiVo is no longer around?
What is it worth then? There is no guarantee of what it is worth.

As good for your cable-company that requires no commitment... there are those carriers that do require commitment...

So as a consumer... you have to evalute your ENTIRE picture... that is specific to your area, and needs. So yes... in your situation, it may be very beneficial for you to go with TiVo and basic-cable with OTA.

But for others, it might not be the same case.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> And as for the resale value of the TiVo? What if TiVo is no longer around?
> What is it worth then? There is no guarantee of what it is worth.


No guarantees, but when I left Dish the sale of my equipment COMPLETELY PAID for my up front costs for DirecTV. When I left DirecTV, my equipment sales COMPLETELY PAID for my Series 3. (I had to caugh up $299 for 3 years of service).

It's always nice to be able to recover part of your investment when you are done.



ebonovic said:


> As good for your cable-company that requires no commitment... there are those carriers that do require commitment...
> 
> So as a consumer... you have to evalute your ENTIRE picture... that is specific to your area, and needs. So yes... in your situation, it may be very beneficial for you to go with TiVo and basic-cable with OTA.


My cable company isn't some dinky company, it's Comcast. I've never had to commit to cable. You say some require it. I believe you. I bet though it's to get some super savings.

Even if I wern't happy with basic cable, the fact that I could subscribe to their full package with HD, and in one month go back to basic is of value. Say I move and can't get satellite? Say I lose my job? TWO YEARS is a very long time.

I know to you the commitment is no bid deal, but it DOES put directv at a disadvantage. Even Dish Network allows you to pay a $49 up front fee and have no contract. Some people simply aren't willing to fork over $1200 just to see if the HR21 is good.

And why do they even have a commitment? Their investment in you is simply the installation. You quit in one month? They get all of the equipment back! What is the TWO YEAR COMMITMENT even for? So make people who don't want to commit pay the install. Do they think their churn will be that high if they didn't have it? I seriously doubt people would be switching every five seconds to another company....


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> And why do they even have a commitment? Their investment in you is simply the installation. You quit in one month? They get all of the equipment back! What is the TWO YEAR COMMITMENT even for? So make people who don't want to commit pay the install.  Do they think their churn will be that high if they didn't have it? I seriously doubt people would be switching every five seconds to another company....


But they don't get all the equipment back...
Last I checked, they don't ask for the dish, cable, and multiswitches back...
Nor do they get anything back for the service call by the installer company (if necessary)

I do wish they had an option for those that don't want a commitment, could signup for what ever cost... just so it is there for those that don't want any form of a commitment.

I am sure there are financial reasons on why... but I have no specifics on "why". Why does any company/industry have service contracts?

As to putting them at a "disadvantage".... based on the numbers, where is it hurting them?
Their subscriber count is still growing... their average spending by the customers is increasing...

They are arguable the HD and Sports coverage leader....


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> Why isn't it "accurate"...
> 
> Do you not have to pay that amount to get the unit in your home?


I read your post from a different point of view. I was looking at your cost comparison as the service providers cost to provide the box, not the customers cost to acquire the box. Having reread the post, it's clear that was not the context in which you were speaking.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> I am sure there are financial reasons on why... but I have no specifics on "why". Why does any company/industry have service contracts?


Good question. Dish Network doesn't... Cable doesn't... appears DirecTV is the only one in their industry that does. (Even cable companies that require a commitment usually only do it for a special, you can still go month to month...)



ebonovic said:


> As to putting them at a "disadvantage".... based on the numbers, where is it hurting them?
> Their subscriber count is still growing... their average spending by the customers is increasing...


So because they're doing good, they shouldn't try to do better? I bet their growth would even be higher without the committment. People on the fence would give it a shot.

And their growth proves my point. If their service is so good, why lock people in? People will stay because it's the best service for the money. No need to shackle their DVR to their ankle....

The only argument I can think of is maybe NFL Sunday Ticket people not subbing the rest of the year... still, they could charge a 're-activation fee' or something if your account has been active within the last year...


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Adam1115 said:


> Dish Network doesn't


Excuse me? Dish just upped their contract from 12 months to 18 months. Better get your facts straight.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

shibby191 said:


> Excuse me? Dish just upped their contract from 12 months to 18 months. Better get your facts straight.


Nope, you're wrong.

If you choose to commit for 24-months (don't know where 18 came from), they will waive the $49.99 activation fee and give you a bunch of programming credits.

If you choose NO COMMITMENT, you must pay $49.99 up front and get no programming discounts.

http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/about_us/new_customer_terms/index.shtml

Better get your facts straight.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

18 month for regular stuff now for directv...24 for HD as always


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## stefanis (Dec 3, 2007)

:down:


ebonovic said:


> How can they "fail" something, they where never contracted to do?
> 
> As for a reliable SD-DVR? Matter of opinion.
> The R15/R16 platform is very reliable IMHO...
> ...


My R10 kept freezing and pixelating so I decided to take advantage of a free upgrade offer to an R15. I had the R15 for 3 days before I returned it. Here are the issues: 
:down: There is no way to create an auto record for one program that is show on two different channels. That is, if new episodes of a show are on channel A and rerun episodes from a previous season are on channel B, you cannot create a single or even multipal auto records to take care of it. Up our way sometimes A network station has a sister independant station. When the network station runs into a conflict in programing (Normal show conflicts with local sports event) the network show gets shunted to the independant station. Because I know that they do this I can set up a season pass to catch it. R15, can't do that.
:down: limited to 50 auto records. I set everything I normally watch to auto record, just in case I miss it or want to watch at a different time. That includes the kid's shows, my wife's soaps, and the 3-4hrs of prime time every night. If you record 8 1hr shows per day per week you are already at 56. And that doesn't take into account the fact that the kid's shows tend to be 1/2 hour. So it is really more like 60. And then there's the common practice of the networks of having a second season, so unless you are going to delete the shows that are on hiadus, now you are up to 90 auto-records.
:down: The R15 kept rebooting for no reason, or would fail to boot completely. Much worse that my R10.
:down: Search capability weak.
:down: Stupid colored buttons mean different things on different screens and there's no on-screen legend.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

And if they are going to have commitments... then put it on the damn bill. So, the customer knows when they can leave... if they want to.

You have *22 months* left on your commitment to Directv.

Or

You no longer have a commitment to Directv.



Adam1115 said:


> And why do they even have a commitment? Their investment in you is simply the installation. You quit in one month? They get all of the equipment back! What is the TWO YEAR COMMITMENT even for? So make people who don't want to commit pay the install. Do they think their churn will be that high if they didn't have it? I seriously doubt people would be switching every five seconds to another company....


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> And why do they even have a commitment? Their investment in you is simply the installation. You quit in one month? They get all of the equipment back! What is the TWO YEAR COMMITMENT even for? So make people who don't want to commit pay the install. Do they think their churn will be that high if they didn't have it? I seriously doubt people would be switching every five seconds to another company....


It is the opposite of the old "Money back if not completely satisfied" con.


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

+1 
It's a new business policy. Instead of "Money back if not completely satisfied", now it's more of a, "If you think it's bad now, just wait till we bend you over".


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

CrashHD said:


> +1
> It's a new business policy. Instead of "Money back if not completely satisfied", now it's more of a, "If you think it's bad now, just wait till we bend you over".


 I remember when The D* fanboys pointed out the fact that they would give you a Super Dvr for practically for free and the commitment was to cover the cost of GIVING you a SUPER DVR! That was than This is now. They No longer GIVE you a super DVR They Give you Nothing. So FAnboys Whats the commitment covering now. I want to Go HD. But all I can do is satellite do to the remoteness of my home. (No Cable runs close enough) Thanx to D* doing the lease crap Dish does it to along with the SOB commitment. Dish HD DVR Looks superior to D* At least for now. DISH 722 can take a USB 750 gig HD Which Adds to your storage. The D* uses Esata (which is much harder to get(more expensive) but overrides the internal drive. There are pluses and minuses on both sides. But how do I choose.

Both companies will FORCE me to commit for 24 months so that if the D* 21 activates the usb (Just like they activated them on the S2 Directivos sarcasm a plenty) I am stuck with dish or if dish signs up with Tivo and I commit to D* I am FU**ked also.

I HATE DISH AND D* for this. They take away your options completely. Welcome to Communist TV entertainment

At least with the Cell phone commitment You actually Get something.

I wonder if there is some Contractual loophole that would get me the ability to try out each to see which I like better.

When Replay and Tivo first came out the stores all had a 30 day return policy. I bought a replay took it home tried it for a few weeks than bought a Tivo and I liked the tivo much better.

Now I am screwed If I try either one. D* will give me a HR21 for 19.99 or Dish Will give me a 722 for free with no upfront costs. Personally I don't like Dish but the Hd dvr sounds better than the Hr21 (solely because of the support for USB Even with the stupid 39 dollar activation fee)

I am so pissed at both of these companies they saddle you into a 24 commitment cause both companies are scared of what tivo will do next and where they will go and because they know Tivo is 10 times better than their dvr But they Have you for 2 years. Heck TIvo may get so big they buy out dish or comcast or whatever and I am stuck with an inferior dvr for 2 years :down: /end of rant


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## DouglasPHill (Feb 10, 2005)

CrashHD said:


> "If you think it's bad now, just wait till we bend you over".


LOL


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> . DISH 722 can take a USB 750 gig HD Which Adds to your storage. The D* uses Esata (which is much harder to get(more expensive) but overrides the internal drive.


If you're whole point of the rant is USB vs. eSata drives, ummmm, eSata is *very* easy to get, not sure why you think otherwise. I can walk into any Best Buy and get one and there are dozens of options available at NewEgg (much preferred place to get computer hardware anyway). So eSata is certainly not hard to get. Just an FYI.


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## dalesd (Aug 2, 2001)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> Both companies will FORCE me to commit for 24 months /end of rant


Nobody's forcing you. You can choose not to do business with them.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

shibby191 said:


> If you're whole point of the rant is USB vs. eSata drives, ummmm, eSata is *very* easy to get, not sure why you think otherwise. I can walk into any Best Buy and get one and there are dozens of options available at NewEgg (much preferred place to get computer hardware anyway). So eSata is certainly not hard to get. Just an FYI.


That had nothing to do with it. Read the post!! The rant is that i am being tied into a 24 month commitment and get nothing in return. At least before I ended up with a couple of directivos for free that I own. Since D* Pioneered this lease and 24 month commitment everyone else is starting it. Btw the hr21 external drive overrides the internal drive. The dish adds to the internal storage. Also Dish supports the use of the usb D* does not officialy support the use of the external drive. It also has usb But It is for future use.( Sound familiar)


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> Both companies will FORCE me to commit for 24 months so that if the D* 21 activates the usb (Just like they activated them on the S2 Directivos sarcasm a plenty) I am stuck with dish or if dish signs up with Tivo and I commit to D* I am FU**ked also.


Dish network does *NOT* require a contract!

Your up front costs will be $49.99 higher and you won't get the discounted programming offers. But you can get a free Dish HD DVR with no commitment.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

dalesd said:


> Nobody's forcing you. You can choose not to do business with them.


If I want tv I am forced as Satellite is my only choice. But your right no one is forcing me but they are certainly Forcing me into a commitment to USE their equipment. Ahh I long for the good ole days where every 6 months I got a new Directivo to OWN and do with as I please and sure the commitment was there but I owned my equipment at the end. 
The commitment never bothered me in the past as I was happy with tivo and getting to keep the equiptment was a nice benefit.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> Dish network does *NOT* require a contract!
> 
> Your up front costs will be $49.99 higher and you won't get the discounted programming offers. But you can get a free Dish HD DVR with no commitment.


Thats not what they told me last night. 24 month commitment for the 722. If this is true what you say the CSRs are dip shi*s when I balked at the commitment why did they not tell me this.. I will call now

They insist any equiptment you get is a 24 month commitment. They Know nothing about what you say for 49.95 more up front. You got a special # to call I call 800 3333dish!

Update: I guess you have to get fowarded to the dish equivilent of retention. I have my 722 on the way No commitment 49.99 up front. Well worth it. I will use both D* and Dish Dish I will just get the HD channels they offer for 29.99 and My D* I get everything else on my sd tivo. Thanx Adam for the Info:up:


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> I wonder if there is some Contractual loophole that would get me the ability to try out each to see which I like better.


You mean like going to a friend's house and trying it out?

I'll grant you DVR's are not cars. But the last time I checked there was no contractual way to test drive a new car for a month and then just give it back if you don't like it. Does that make car dealers communists too?

Or how about if I live in a small town with only a Ford dealer. Is it communist for them to not sell me a Toyota if that is what I prefer?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> If I want tv I am forced as Satellite is my only choice. But your right no one is forcing me but they are certainly Forcing me into a commitment to USE their equipment. Ahh I long for the good ole days where every 6 months I got a new Directivo to OWN and do with as I please and sure the commitment was there but I owned my equipment at the end.
> The commitment never bothered me in the past as I was happy with tivo and getting to keep the equiptment was a nice benefit.


All I can say is I have a garage full of old Directv equipment that I paid for, and I own, and it is all worthless right now. I think I paid less than $100 each for the three new HR20's I'm currently leasing. In 2 years how much could I get for them used if I had bought them, $20 each, maybe.

Two months ago I gave away 2 HR10-250's that they let me buy years ago for only $1000 each. Boy I made out like a bandit owning them didn't I?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> Thats not what they told me last night. 24 month commitment for the 722. If this is true what you say the CSRs are dip shi*s when I balked at the commitment why did they not tell me this.. I will call now
> 
> They insist any equiptment you get is a 24 month commitment. They Know nothing about what you say for 49.95 more up front. You got a special # to call I call 800 3333dish!
> 
> Update: I guess you have to get fowarded to the dish equivilent of retention. I have my 722 on the way No commitment 49.99 up front. Well worth it. I will use both D* and Dish Dish I will just get the HD channels they offer for 29.99 and My D* I get everything else on my sd tivo. Thanx Adam for the Info:up:


That doesn't make any sense. When you buy online it gives you the choice right there whether you want a commitment.

EDIT: But then again, their CSR's are the WORST. It took me over an HOUR on the phone to get my 322 activated with no commitment. They kept insisting on selling me new equipment.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

They insisted on an SSN... even though I inquired about just paying for the equipment. However, their system is not setup to handle such things. It's kind of funny that they would require that just to watch TV.

Also, the CSR said that it was part of the Patriot Act.  It's a good thing they are there to keep the terrorists from being able to watch satellite TV. 



Adam1115 said:


> That doesn't make any sense. When you buy online it gives you the choice right there whether you want a commitment.
> 
> EDIT: But then again, their CSR's are the WORST. It took me over an HOUR on the phone to get my 322 activated with no commitment. They kept insisting on selling me new equipment.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> All I can say is I have a garage full of old Directv equipment that I paid for, and I own, and it is all worthless right now. I think I paid less than $100 each for the three new HR20's I'm currently leasing. In 2 years how much could I get for them used if I had bought them, $20 each, maybe.
> 
> Two months ago I gave away 2 HR10-250's that they let me buy years ago for only $1000 each. Boy I made out like a bandit owning them didn't I?


You guys don't like to fully read posts do you. My complaint is not with the equipment as much as the commitment for 24 months. Some thing better comes around in 6 months like fios or whatever I am locked in for the privilege of using their equipment. BTW I also paid well for tivo equipment and i also got some good deals with D* before they decided to screw their customers. Since You are a fan of D* tell me what justifies the 2 year contract? Whats wrong with a 3 0r 6 month contract or no contract Yeh right. Is their company so bad that the only way they can keep you or allow you the privilege of using new equipment to lock you in for 2 years. If I leave they get the equipment back.

What I would love to see is the removal of all these customer locking commitments with No choice. Go back to selling the equipment at Full price. I have had it with all of them. I would prefer to pay 200 for my phone and choose to leave when I want to. I would prefer to pay 300 for my sat equipment or whatever and leave when I want to.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> You mean like going to a friend's house and trying it out?
> 
> I'll grant you DVR's are not cars. But the last time I checked there was no contractual way to test drive a new car for a month and then just give it back if you don't like it.
> 
> Or how about if I live in a small town with only a Ford dealer. Is it communist for them to not sell me a Toyota if that is what I prefer?


No you cant do that with a car but you can with Just about everything else you buy. Most stores have very liberal return policys some as high as 90 days with no restocking fees. If a store has a restocking fee i generally wont buy from them. In this situation Only being able to get sat service for tv I can only go with D* Or Dish. It would be great if there were a few more Sat providers Than there would be competition and good service to keep customers not long commitments. And I have every right to compare them to communism as communism is a no choice government. For me its a no choice or almost no choice on Tv.

BTW I never really called them communists I compared their business tactics to communism which is not the same thing


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## dalesd (Aug 2, 2001)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> You guys don't like to fully read posts do you. My complaint is not with the equipment as much as the commitment for 24 months. Some thing better comes around in 6 months like fios or whatever I am locked in for the privilege of using their equipment.


See, when you said:


Billy Bob Boy said:


> If I want tv I am forced as Satellite is my only choice.


I immediately thought you must live way out in the boonies somewhere, because there's no Cable and no OTA available. It's rare these days, but there are still places like that in America.

[I guess you could get an AppleTV and/or a Netflix subscription. I assume you have internet access out in the boonies.]

But anyway, if living without TV isn't something you want to do, then what's the big deal with a 24 month contract?

But now you're saying that you're worried that something better will come along in 6 months. My town has had FIOS internet for at least 6 months now, and there's still no FIOS TV. It takes time to roll these things out. I wouldn't be worried that it'll sneak up on you. (You can look over at DSLreports.com and see if there are any advanced reports of FIOS coming to your area.)


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> No you cant do that with a car but you can with Just about everything else you buy. Most stores have very liberal return policys some as high as 90 days with no restocking fees.


Tell me one store that will send a guy to your house to install a dish, multiswitch, cables, etc. and then take it all back for no charge? You are comparing apples to oranges. Directv has to invest a lot of unrecoverable money to let someone try their service for 30 days. A cell phone company is out what, one $25 phone they can reuse.

Would you feel better if they said the install fee is $240 but they'll waive the fee at $10 a month for the next 24 months?


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> Tell me one store that will send a guy to your house to install a dish, multiswitch, cables, etc. and then take it all back for no charge? You are comparing apples to oranges. Directv has to invest a lot of unrecoverable money to let someone try their service for 30 days. A cell phone company is out what, one $25 phone they can reuse.
> 
> Would you feel better if they said the install fee is $240 but they'll waive the fee at $10 a month for the next 24 months?


So what is D* out of if I dont like the hr21. they get it back repack it and off it goes to someone else. There is No Viable reason On gods green earth to justify a 2 year contract with no out. At least at a car dealer you can choose to lease or own.

Ok here is an example you can live with. Sams club makes you sign a 20 year contract to keep you a member. No perks If you decide to no longer shop at sams they hit you with a 500 dollar fee.

And yep D* will take it all back and charge you 300 bucks or did that fact slip your mind that is the whole complaint with the 2 year contract.

And yes I would be happier to pay a Reasonable up front fee like 49.95 And they dont have to give it back at all just dont make me commit End Of story!!

What say we end this now as I will not convince you and you will not convince me.

And IMO It has nothing to do with own or lease As Dish is willing to let me try the dvr and go month to month. NO Commitment. (if I am not happy I give it back) Why cant D* do the same. It actualy is only 30 bucks more not 49.95. D* insited on a shipping fee of 19.95 and I am out of my current commitment. If I wasnt It would cost me anywhere from 99-199 for the privledge of returning it + 300 or whatever the cancel fee is if I absolutely hate the hr21. Aint that a Great deal. I think 30 dollars to try the dish 722 is a much better deal

Btw where did I ask to try the service for 30 days (you make it sound like I want a free trial) I would pay for it like everyone else Month to month untill I dont want to any more Like many services. I have a cleaning person comes in every week No commitment. I have a pool service I pay every month. I have Dsl from att with Their equiptment. No commitment there and I even get New modems every few years for free

D* Is a service like many others out there that dont make you commit for 2 years. If the service Is good They dont have to


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> So what is D* out of if I dont like the hr21. they get it back repack it and off it goes to someone else. There is No Viable reason On gods green earth to justify a 2 year contract with no out. At least at a car dealer you can choose to lease or own.


what happens if you decide after 6 months into the 2-year commitment that you don't want D* anymore?

they will send you a bill? so what? don't pay it...I can't for the life of me understand why people get so upset about the 2 year thing...


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## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

Anubys said:


> I can't for the life of me understand why people get so upset about the 2 year thing...


It's the lack of control thing. Trapped! I'd pay an up front fee to shorten the two years to six months.

I had DirecTV for years, until the whole DVR+ thing. Now I have no commitment, a Tivo Series 3 and Comcast. I'd go back to DirecTV maybe even with a commitment if I could just get a TivoHD that could use the DirecTV signal.

Bonanza


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

Anubys said:


> they will send you a bill? so what? don't pay it...I can't for the life of me understand why people get so upset about the 2 year thing...


uhm some people actually enjoy having good credit


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> My complaint is not with the equipment as much as the commitment for 24 months. Some thing better comes around in 6 months like fios or whatever I am locked in for the privilege of using their equipment.


God forbid you get a mobile phone... There is almost always a way to not have a contractual equipment associated with the service you are interested in subscribing to - its just a question of whether you are willing to pay more for the equipment in exchange for not being locked in; ie hardware costs are often subsidized by the revenue generated by your contractual commitment.

Bottom line is that it is rare to be able to have your cake and eat it too...


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## Okeemike (Apr 24, 2002)

Bonanzaair said:


> I'd go back to DirecTV maybe even with a commitment if I could just get a TivoHD that could use the DirecTV signal
> Bonanza


A men, brother! I was a very happy DTV subscriber from the mid 90's until September last year, when i decided that I had to either climb the water tower with my rifle, or get rid of the DTV HD DVR. That piece of junk drove me nuts.

I would HAPPILY go back to DTV with a 10 year commitment, if they'll give me a TiVo.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Okeemike said:


> A men, brother!
> 
> I would HAPPILY go back to DTV with a 10 year commitment, if they'll give me a TiVo.


Ah, to 'feel the joy' again.


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## dalesd (Aug 2, 2001)

Okeemike said:


> I had to either climb the water tower with my rifle, or get rid of the DTV HD DVR.


You made me lol.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

Okeemike said:


> I would HAPPILY go back to DTV with a 10 year commitment, if they'll give me a TiVo.


+2 :up:


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I doubt I'd immediately go back to DirecTV if they started offering a TiVo-based HD DVR.

DirecTV can't compete with Cable Internet or telephone service offerings. And now that DirecTV pushed me away to where I was willing to give Comcast another chance and have found them to be much better than they previously were in terms of customer service and feature delivery, DirecTV has a much higher bar to meet before I would come back -- somehow they'd have to package up a FiOS-level internet package and phone service at competitive prices to go with their television services. And that just isn't gonna happen with their existing tech.

Comcast would have to either screw up as badly as DirecTV did to get me to leave, or DirecTV would have to offer something spectacular in the way of a bundled deal.


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## Okeemike (Apr 24, 2002)

dswallow said:


> DirecTV can't compete with Cable Internet or telephone service offerings.


In the end game, who ultimately has more bandwidth for channels...sat or cable? It's my understanding that satellite currently has a 'better' picture, but I'm not sure. I can't tell the difference between the two of them.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Okeemike said:


> In the end game, who ultimately has more bandwidth for channels...sat or cable? It's my understanding that satellite currently has a 'better' picture, but I'm not sure. I can't tell the difference between the two of them.


Given the necessary equipment at the head-end, cable will always have more potential delivery capacity to the home than satellite. Satellite has limited ways of reusing their frequencies for delivery of different information to different geographical regions. Cable can divide things up down to the couple-of-hundred-homes level if they so choose as far as the entire cable bandwidth goes, and can pipe unique information to individual homes over that cable.

Satellite has little to no 2-way capability, and what they do have suffers from high latency and could not accommodate a high volume of users no matter what.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

I'm hope there's been research on how many subscribers Directv would hold or get back if they offered a TivoHD option(even at a higher monthly cost). If there has been, Malone is aware of it. That will probably determine if an option becomes available this year.


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## dalesd (Aug 2, 2001)

Cudahy said:


> I'm hope there's been research on how many subscribers Directv would hold or get back if they offered a TivoHD option(even at a higher monthly cost). If there has been, Malone is aware of it. That will probably determine if an option becomes available this year.


D* called me to ask if I wanted to sign on for another year. I told them no because I'm going HD and they don't support TiVo in HD. I explained that they're going to lose me as soon as FIOS finishes negotiations with my town.

I also sent them a couple of emails with the same message.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Way to go. Wish we had FIOS here.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

Heres a good idea for D* 

Send out emails and letters to all the subscribers with a survey. IE: Do you have HD, do you have a dvr, Would you pay a higher dvr fee if we did a HD Tivo. Perhaps they might be surprised at the amount of capital they might make. What the heck they send me letters to subscribe to D* when I already do. This wouldnt be any more of a waste of money. Than perhaps they would see if Tivo is worth while or not. What if they got like 1 million respondents willing to pay more. or 2 million willing to come back who jumped ship. Send them to all subscribers past and present.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Even if they did start offering an HD Tivo box... it would not have all the features of the SA unit. I'm starting to really enjoy those features and can't say that I would go back to D* anyway.



dswallow said:


> I doubt I'd immediately go back to DirecTV if they started offering a TiVo-based HD DVR.
> 
> DirecTV can't compete with Cable Internet or telephone service offerings. And now that DirecTV pushed me away to where I was willing to give Comcast another chance and have found them to be much better than they previously were in terms of customer service and feature delivery, DirecTV has a much higher bar to meet before I would come back -- somehow they'd have to package up a FiOS-level internet package and phone service at competitive prices to go with their television services. And that just isn't gonna happen with their existing tech.
> 
> Comcast would have to either screw up as badly as DirecTV did to get me to leave, or DirecTV would have to offer something spectacular in the way of a bundled deal.


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## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

magnus said:


> Even if they did start offering an HD Tivo box... it would not have all the features of the SA unit. I'm starting to really enjoy those features and can't say that I would go back to D* anyway.


Yes, I'm not sure I want a DTivo anymore. I really enjoy my Series 3. That's why I've started a petition over at iPetitions.com to get Congress and the FCC to require the satellite companies to make their signal available to third party equipment providers like Tivo. Kinda like what cablecards did for cable. If anyone is interested here is the link.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/satellitefreedom/

Bonanza


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BlackBetty said:


> uhm some people actually enjoy having good credit


not going to roll my eye back at you ...

as I've posted in other threads, you can easily do it without harming your credit rating...you can dispute the charge with the credit card company and tell them not to pay it...if the credit card company refuses, cancel the card...I've done it twice with companies that I feel violated their contract with me

*my 2 year commitment is also a commitment from D* to continue providing me with satisfactory service that is superior to the competition!*...whenever a CSR tells me about the commitment, I always tell them my "terms" as well...the CSR is usually confused and just says "ok"...


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

Anubys said:


> *my 2 year commitment is also a commitment from D* to continue providing me with satisfactory service that is superior to the competition!*...whenever a CSR tells me about the commitment, I always tell them my "terms" as well...the CSR is usually confused and just says "ok"...


While I agree with that, in spirit, I cannot help but think that realistically, getting the a CSR to agree to something is legally meaningless.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

CrashHD said:


> While I agree with that, in spirit, I cannot help but think that realistically, getting the a CSR to agree to something is legally meaningless.


precisely my point...getting me to agree to a 2-year commitment is just as meaningless...and if they plan on suing me for the money (yeah, right!) the only real proof is the phone record 

they did not send me their contract by certified mail and I did not sign anything...while they are certainly covered legally (by paying the bill, I have agreed to their terms), this would never reach lawsuit level...it's just not going to escalate...they bill me, I refuse to pay, everyone walks away...


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