# Terminator: Sarah Connors Chronicles "Heavy Metal" OAD:2-4-2008 *spoilers*



## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

"If you are going to be a hero you have to learn how to drive stick"

:up:


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

Great episode. I always love truck v. terminator action. Credit to the director for the suspense in the bomb shelter. It was still pretty tense even though it was very obvious that John was going to make it out of there somehow.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

OK, spoiler nazis, don't look at my .sig.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Bah! Stupid Tivo! Recorded what it was told to record, not what I wanted it to record...

-Ken


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Yep! Great tension, great episode! Only 3 eps left, right?


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## s2krazy (Oct 31, 2003)

3 episodes? Is this a mini-series? BTW, what is up with Fox's inability to end shows on time. Is this a conspiracy to foil DVRs? If I add a minute to my time, I'll lose the first minute of the show following it.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> OK, spoiler nazis, don't look at my .sig.


That's a great line.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

s2krazy said:


> 3 episodes? Is this a mini-series?


I think there's some kind of writers' retreat going on...


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Do cell phones work inside semi trailers?


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## DouglasPHill (Feb 10, 2005)

It was just an ok episode. Would have been fun to see the guy trying to get by Summernator. Regardless as to how good the episode was, I'd tune in just to see the two babes.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

vman41 said:


> Do cell phones work inside semi trailers?


Yep.

I liked this episode overall, however the plastic surgery bit bugged me. The plastic surgeon can not only create perfect lookalike faces, but HAIR too? The writers needed to think harder about that one...

Good episode otherwise, and is setting up nicely a sort of current war between humans and Terminators.


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

For a moment I thought John might not know how to use a rotory phone,lol


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## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

Last night bothered me. If we are to believe that this is a story based after T2, why do they not carry big weapons when they run into Terminators. Why did they not blast the Terminator behind the doors a few times instead of sending Summer in immediately. Arnold as a Terminator knew what it took to protect Jon and Summer really does not. I know this is on TV and then tend to keep the gun violence less than the movies, but this is the channel with 24 so it would be at least the same.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

If John Connor is the leader of the free world we are all in trouble. 

Not the sharpest knife in the drawer based on last night's episode.


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## plateau10 (Dec 11, 2007)

DouglasPHill said:


> Would have been fun to see the guy trying to get by Summernator.


IMO that scene was executed perfectly. Much more effective with that taking place offscreen.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

su719 said:


> Why did they not blast the Terminator behind the doors a few times instead of sending Summer in immediately.


I don't understand which doors you are referring to. The blast doors? They couldn't "blast" him there... or am I missing something here?



su719 said:


> Arnold as a Terminator knew what it took to protect Jon and Summer really does not.


I think they've handled that part pretty well. She is not only there to protect him, but also to guide him gently on his path towards becoming a military leader. One line last night was something like "John tends to do things like this.", indicating to me that she was pleased with how it was progressing, and that it was necessary in order to have him develop into the future John, even if it was risky.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I gotta say, the future computer overlords are not very smart if they make their robot sentries shut down and go into standby mode where intruders can walk around right next to them without being detected.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I gotta say, the future computer overlords are not very smart if they make their robot sentries shut down and go into standby mode where intruders can walk around right next to them without being detected.


Nah, that made sense, there was no threat, so why not? What he should have done is secure the area first.


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## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

MickeS said:


> I don't understand which doors you are referring to. The blast doors? They couldn't "blast" him there... or am I missing something here?


As soon as the blast doors opened stick a shot gun in his face as he boots and blam blam.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

vman41 said:


> Do cell phones work inside semi trailers?


Cell phones, yes. GPS on the other hand...



MickeS said:


> I liked this episode overall, however the plastic surgery bit bugged me. The plastic surgeon can not only create perfect lookalike faces, but HAIR too? The writers needed to think harder about that one...


Apparently you've never seen Nip/Tuck! The Terminator writers obviously have, they must have taken the adjacent office.

I was sort of mixed on this episode. It was a bit slow at the beginning and I kept thinking, this episode really bites compared to the others. Then towards the end it got much better. I also have to hand it to Garret Dillahunt, I've groaned every time I've seen him in shows recently (he was awful in ER & the 4400), but he did a great job here.

Greg


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

su719 said:


> As soon as the blast doors opened stick a shot gun in his face as he boots and blam blam.


Why? All it would do is wake him up sooner. Shotguns don't seem to do much except temporarily hold them back, and he was already in hibernation.


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

They seemed to think the blast doors would keep him in there indefinitely at the end. Maybe, probably not, but really all the terminator would have to do is rip open the switch panel and hotwire it. Of course, maybe his programming didn't extend so far as to what he should do if the cargo were stolen...


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Had we seen Garret Dillahunt (the post-plastic surgery Terminator) on this show before? I can't remember if he'd played in a previous episode or I just knew he was coming on from reading about him joining. (I would have recognized his name from Deadwood)


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

I was waiting for them to blow up the building with the terminator and the metal stuff but I disappointed.

What was with that last scene with john? Was his hand shaking?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I must have been half asleep when I watched. What happened to the C4? Did he still have it but couldn't detonate it because his PDA phone broke? That's a pretty flimsy PDA phone... wasn't expecting it to break in half right after cell phone commercial breaks.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Mars Rocket said:


> They seemed to think the blast doors would keep him in there indefinitely at the end. Maybe, probably not, but really all the terminator would have to do is rip open the switch panel and hotwire it. Of course, maybe his programming didn't extend so far as to what he should do if the cargo were stolen...


OK, so since Cameron got rid of that truck and its cargo, why didn't she immediately disappear a la BttF? She did say that she will be manufactured at that facility.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> I must have been half asleep when I watched. What happened to the C4? Did he still have it but couldn't detonate it because his PDA phone broke? That's a pretty flimsy PDA phone... wasn't expecting it to break in half right after cell phone commercial breaks.


Yeah, it should have broke BEFORE the commercials. "Cell phone broke? Buy our replacements".


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

wprager said:


> why didn't she immediately disappear a la BttF?


OK - what's BttF stand for?


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> OK, so since Cameron got rid of that truck and its cargo, why didn't she immediately disappear a la BttF? She did say that she will be manufactured at that facility.


Because they did not destroy the factory, only the material to make 250 terminator frames. I'm guessing she was made from another batch of material. So what is Bttf?


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## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

Cainebj said:


> OK - what's BttF stand for?


Back to the Future


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## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

What do you think the significance was of the Summernator keeping one bar of the material at the end? Do you think she is holding it to repair herself in case she needs it?


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

scsiguy72 said:


> What do you think the significance was of the Summernator keeping one bar of the material at the end? Do you think she is holding it to repair herself in case she needs it?


no. imo john becomes part terminator....


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

They probably want us to consider the story of the golem and wonder if she's going to turn on them.


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## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

MickeS said:


> Why? All it would do is wake him up sooner. Shotguns don't seem to do much except temporarily hold them back, and he was already in hibernation.


In T2 it hurt Arnold pretty well as well as the T-1000. That is my problem with this show. The new Terminators seem nearly impossible to kill. It passed through time dismantled, rebuilt it self and is hunting again. If Skynet can send all this stuff back, why can't the resistance send some more weapons to John and Sarah besides Summer.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> I must have been half asleep when I watched. What happened to the C4? Did he still have it but couldn't detonate it because his PDA phone broke? That's a pretty flimsy PDA phone... wasn't expecting it to break in half right after cell phone commercial breaks.


They were planting the C4 at the first facility where the metal was being loaded onto the truck. We have no indication what happened to it after that. The final scene took place in a completely different place and we don't know if Sarah and Cameron brought it with them or not.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> They were planting the C4 at the first facility where the metal was being loaded onto the truck. We have no indication what happened to it after that. The final scene took place in a completely different place and we don't know if Sarah and Cameron brought it with them or not.


I guess the answer is not, because they chose to sink the truck in the water instead of blowing it up real good.


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## TIVOSciolist (Oct 13, 2003)

s2krazy said:


> 3 episodes? Is this a mini-series? BTW, what is up with Fox's inability to end shows on time. Is this a conspiracy to foil DVRs? If I add a minute to my time, I'll lose the first minute of the show following it.


I have to give credit to Fox for promoting this show so heavily during the Super Bowl. That should really help the ratings.

That, and the fact they keep showing the naked-Terminator-landing-in-the-middle-of-the-road scene over and over again.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

TIVOSciolist said:


> I have to give credit to Fox for promoting this show so heavily during the Super Bowl. That should really help the ratings.
> 
> That, and the fact they keep showing the naked-Terminator-landing-in-the-middle-of-the-road scene over and over again.


I loved the terminator vs the fox football robot dude...


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

Hi ALL,

Could someone point me to a good episode summary as I fell asleep during most of this one!!!

Thanks,
Gerry


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

wprager said:


> OK, so since Cameron got rid of that truck and its cargo, why didn't she immediately disappear a la BttF? She did say that she will be manufactured at that facility.


The same reason why the Journeyman still remembered his son even after he was never born.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Gerryex said:


> Hi ALL,
> 
> Could someone point me to a good episode summary as I fell asleep during most of this one!!!
> 
> ...


The episode will be available for viewing here (1-2 days after broadcast):
http://www.fox.com/fod/player.htm?show=tscc


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Gerryex said:


> Hi ALL,
> 
> Could someone point me to a good episode summary as I fell asleep during most of this one!!!
> 
> ...


You know, there's this great device known as "TiVo" that records television shows for you......


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

I really like this show. I was wonder why T: SCCs seems so good when bionic women was so bad...

I think the whiny sister and wimpy bionic women may have turned me off. Where here we got a kick *ss terminator girl and a hard core mom training young John Connors.


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

I wonder where they buy the fancy LED timer modules they had on the C4?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

mrdbdigital said:


> I wonder where they buy the fancy LED timer modules they had on the C4?


Radio Shack. Duh.

Greg


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Johnny Dancing said:


> I really like this show. I was wonder why T: SCCs seems so good when bionic women was so bad...
> 
> I think the whiny sister and wimpy bionic women may have turned me off. Where here we got a kick *ss terminator girl and a hard core mom training young John Connors.


I think it's because like most other shows, Bionic Woman thought they had to build in a soap opera as well.

Should she tell the sister...who's the sister dating...who's Jamie dating, etc, etc...

So far in 4 episodes, SCC seems to be able to tell a good story and fill up the whole episode, without having to resort to crap we don't care about.

I mean it's early, maybe that will change, but so far so good.

-smak-


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

scsiguy72 said:


> What do you think the significance was of the Summernator keeping one bar of the material at the end? Do you think she is holding it to repair herself in case she needs it?


I thought she used it to jam the gas pedal to the floor. I'm probably wrong though. This episode had so many eye rolling moments that I stopped paying rapt attention.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

wprager said:


> OK, so since Cameron got rid of that truck and its cargo, why didn't she immediately disappear a la BttF?


That didn't bother me as much as the idea that SkyNet set up the facility to manufacture its own army to be used right after Judgment Day..

It reminds me of the temporal loop of the gold watch in _Somewhere in Time_...


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I thought she used it to jam the gas pedal to the floor. I'm probably wrong though.


You're both right. She used one to jam the gas pedal, and she had one with her at the end of the show.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

She said something about that one pallet of fakeonium being equivalent to 400+ terminators. I would think that bar must be good for more than just minor repairs. 

I think I'm going to pretend that the show doesn't have previously existing canon. Skynet sending other terminators back in time to put things in place so that when judgement day happens, it will have more (?) terminators than it did originally just seems like too much extra effort. Wouldn't a computer system figure the path with the least number of things that can go wrong that would have the highest probability of success? It's not like the metal bars can just make themselves into terminators. They have to have the equipment. JD is only 4 years away but it looked as though the terminator locking himself in there with the metal wouldn't be very helpful. I know they said that when JD happens the blast destroys the building and leaves Terminator and the metal exposed but four years is a long time. 

Then, of course, John has the key to open the door which really changes nothing. The terminator is still active. They didn't blow up the building. Am I missing something?


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## needo (Jul 9, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> I think I'm going to pretend that the show doesn't have previously existing canon. Skynet sending other terminators back in time to put things in place so that when judgement day happens, it will have more (?) terminators than it did originally just seems like too much extra effort. Wouldn't a computer system figure the path with the least number of things that can go wrong that would have the highest probability of success? It's not like the metal bars can just make themselves into terminators. They have to have the equipment. JD is only 4 years away but it looked as though the terminator locking himself in there with the metal wouldn't be very helpful. I know they said that when JD happens the blast destroys the building and leaves Terminator and the metal exposed but four years is a long time.


I think it was explained that the metal is very rare and even more rare after JD. So when JD occurs they will have a ready stockpile to use to build the Terminators. They will have more Terminators quicker then they would without the metal as they would have to search for the raw materials. As to the four year part maybe that was the most opportune time to intercept the shipment.



Sirius Black said:


> Am I missing something?


Yes. Sit back and enjoy the show. Over analyzing every detail of a show will make you quite mad and quite possibly destroy any enjoyment you would hope to get from it.


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## robpickles (May 19, 2005)

You notice they mentioned and verified "the head" coming through the time portal but did not address the fact that it was made of metal and should not have been able to go through in the first place.

I know we are trying to forget about "the head" but it just annoys me that now they pointed it out and *still* didn't address breaking the rules of Terminator canon.

Rob


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Johnny Dancing said:


> I really like this show. I was wonder why T: SCCs seems so good when bionic women was so bad...
> 
> I think the whiny sister and wimpy bionic women may have turned me off. Where here we got a kick *ss terminator girl and a hard core mom training young John Connors.


Couple reasons why Bionic Woman sucked.

There was more action in the first episode of CC than every episode of BW combined. It was stupid drama for 50 minutes, and a few Dananana, one horrible wire kick jump and then it's over. They should have figured out we just want to see hot girls fighting, I don't care about your hacker sister.

In my opinion John is like the sister character, I care more about River and Sarah than John, but he's less annoying to me to then whatsherface.

Also, in Bionic Woman she should have kept her real accent. Worst decision ever.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Several points:

1. When they showed the video of them appearing in present day, they saw the terminator head. Didn't the head come through later than when they did (That's how I recall it when they showed it in the earlier episode.)

2.) Ok, so they show the Hummer and the truck going through the base security gate. But they never show Sarah, John and "Terminator" go through the gate, nor do they show how they got off the base without detection. 

3.) They lock the other terminator in the bunker and take the key. So what? It would take hime about five minutes to rewire the lock and open it. If not, he is a sucky killing machine. 

4.) John doesn't know how to drive stick? WTF? What kind of training is Sarah giving John? Along with other essential skills you would think she would teach him at an early age to drive automatic as well as stick in case they were in a situation where he had to drive away from, I don't know, maybe a TERMINATOR???


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

needo said:


> Yes. Sit back and enjoy the show. Over analyzing every detail of a show will make you quite mad and quite possibly destroy any enjoyment you would hope to get from it.


I'll have to beg forgiveness for over analyzing. I just watched the movie "Primer". It requires over analyzation just to be able to understand what the movie was about. My frustration with that movie spilled over into writing about this show.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

bdowell said:


> "If you are going to be a hero you have to learn how to drive stick"
> 
> :up:


Or win the Amazing Race


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

This episode sucked...


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## needo (Jul 9, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> I'll have to beg forgiveness for over analyzing. I just watched the movie "Primer". It requires over analyzation just to be able to understand what the movie was about. My frustration with that movie spilled over into writing about this show.


 I understand that!

You hit on my one pet peeve on these boards is people dissecting and picking apart TV shows to the nth degree. Just enjoy it.


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## needo (Jul 9, 2003)

scottykempf said:


> 1. When they showed the video of them appearing in present day, they saw the terminator head. Didn't the head come through later than when they did (That's how I recall it when they showed it in the earlier episode.)


I thought it bounced after them like indicated in this episode. Now that you mention it I will have to go check.



scottykempf said:


> 2.) Ok, so they show the Hummer and the truck going through the base security gate. But they never show Sarah, John and "Terminator" go through the gate, nor do they show how they got off the base without detection.


To establish that they were at a military base and their final destination. There is really no reason to show our heroes going through the gate. Where is the entertainment in that? They only have 40 to 45 minutes.



scottykempf said:


> 3.) They lock the other terminator in the bunker and take the key. So what? It would take hime about five minutes to rewire the lock and open it. If not, he is a sucky killing machine.


That might come back in a later episode.



scottykempf said:


> 4.) John doesn't know how to drive stick? WTF? What kind of training is Sarah giving John? Along with other essential skills you would think she would teach him at an early age to drive automatic as well as stick in case they were in a situation where he had to drive away from, I don't know, maybe a TERMINATOR???


Nitpick much? Driving a stick on a normal vehicle is quite different then driving a stick on a huge truck. For example go borrow a friends Chevy truck that has a stick and drive that around. Then go rent a UHaul or a Ryder truck that is a stick. There is a *huge* difference.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

A pet peeve of mine is when writers make stuff up just because it will look cool, but makes no sense when you think about it.


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## needo (Jul 9, 2003)

MickeS said:


> A pet peeve of mine is when writers make stuff up just because it will look cool, but makes no sense when you think about it.


Welcome to TV. If you can tell me a show that doesn't do that I will owe you one! Almost all stories require some suspension of disbelief. Were you the kid that didn't understand why Snow White ate the apple from a stranger in the woods too?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

needo said:


> Welcome to TV. If you can tell me a show that doesn't do that I will owe you one! Almost all stories require some suspension of disbelief. Were you the kid that didn't understand why Snow White ate the apple from a stranger in the woods too?


I'm not talking about suspension of disbelief. Why Snow White ate the apple was better explained than how Cameron managed to act like a regular girl in the "Terminator" pilot episode, but is apparently totally incapable of acting even remotely human after that.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

MickeS said:


> I'm not talking about suspension of disbelief. Why Snow White ate the apple was better explained than how Cameron managed to act like a regular girl in the "Terminator" pilot episode, but is apparently totally incapable of acting even remotely human after that.


You'll recall that it took Arnold's T-800 quite a while to act human and it didn't start until after they turned on his learning computer chip. Cameron clearly has some programming but it is still just programming. She has to learn. I'm sure shell get better.

Her CPU is a neural-net processor. A learning computer. The more contact she has with humans, more she'll learn.

So sayeth (more or less) the Governator in 1991.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Sirius Black said:


> You'll recall that it took Arnold's T-800 quite a while to act human and it didn't start until after they turned on his learning computer chip. Cameron clearly has some programming but it is still just programming. She has to learn. I'm sure shell get better.


The point is that she WAS perfect in the first episode, then regressed. It's annoying that the viewers will have to make up the excuses for why this happened, when the writers were too lazy to care.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MickeS said:


> The point is that she WAS perfect in the first episode, then regressed. It's annoying that the viewers will have to make up the excuses for why this happened, when the writers were too lazy to care.


It's not that they were lazy. It's that after the pilot was filmed, they were handed notes from the suits saying "make her more robotic."

That kind of thing is VERY common between pilots and series. In a perfect world they would be given the money to reshoot the entire pilot (and once in a while, that happens), but it's far more typical to only reshoot major plot points and re-cast characters. You just have to assume that when there's a difference, what's in the series is the way it's supposed to be, and just forget about the pilot.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

scottykempf said:


> 3.) They lock the other terminator in the bunker and take the key. So what? It would take hime about five minutes to rewire the lock and open it. If not, he is a sucky killing machine.


He's not a killing machine in this instance, he's a Terminator programmed to stay right there and go to sleep until after Judgment Day.

He's not a learning machine, and I don't think he's programmed for if this happens, do this. He's got his programming and he's more than likely sticking to it.

-smak-


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's not that they were lazy. It's that after the pilot was filmed, they were handed notes from the suits saying "make her more robotic."
> 
> That kind of thing is VERY common between pilots and series. In a perfect world they would be given the money to reshoot the entire pilot (and once in a while, that happens), but it's far more typical to only reshoot major plot points and re-cast characters. You just have to assume that when there's a difference, what's in the series is the way it's supposed to be, and just forget about the pilot.


Agreed. I mean, after episode 120 of Seinfeld should we still be bickering that his Dad was played by 2 different people, or that in the pilot Kramer was called Kessler?

Oh, and Jerry's apt was totally different in the pilot than in every other episode, and he didn't move after the pilot....The horror.

-smak-


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## needo (Jul 9, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I'm not talking about suspension of disbelief. Why Snow White ate the apple was better explained than how Cameron managed to act like a regular girl in the "Terminator" pilot episode, but is apparently totally incapable of acting even remotely human after that.


To be technically correct she only acted like a normal teenager in two scenes. Which comprised of what? 5 minutes of screen time?


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

needo said:


> To be technically correct she only acted like a normal teenager in two scenes. Which comprised of what? 5 minutes of screen time?


This was also done before we knew she was a machine too right? Well before it was official introduced in the story so maybe the director wanted us to see a change, like you know if you watch the werewolf games from the outside you can see the wolves acting pretty wolfy cause you know they are wolves, but in the game you don't see it.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

smak said:


> Agreed. I mean, after episode 120 of Seinfeld should we still be bickering that his Dad was played by 2 different people, or that in the pilot Kramer was called Kessler?
> 
> Oh, and Jerry's apt was totally different in the pilot than in every other episode, and he didn't move after the pilot....The horror.
> 
> -smak-


Should cancel any show that does this! Continuity is taken for granted, they need to hire someone whose sole job is to look out for this sort of ... oh.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

needo said:


> To establish that they were at a military base and their final destination. There is really no reason to show our heroes going through the gate. Where is the entertainment in that? They only have 40 to 45 minutes.


No, what I was pointing out was they showed the guys who worked for the terminator guy going through the gate with their fake IDs, but they never showed how Sarah and John got through security or got off the base. They didnt have fake IDs and didnt know where they were going until the one guy told them on the way.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

scottykempf said:


> No, what I was pointing out was they showed the guys who worked for the terminator guy going through the gate with their fake IDs, but they never showed how Sarah and John got through security or got off the base. They didnt have fake IDs and didnt know where they were going until the one guy told them on the way.


I noticed that too, but I expected not to be shown that when I saw the first guys go through the gate.


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## needo (Jul 9, 2003)

scottykempf said:


> No, what I was pointing out was they showed the guys who worked for the terminator guy going through the gate with their fake IDs, but they never showed how Sarah and John got through security or got off the base. They didnt have fake IDs and didnt know where they were going until the one guy told them on the way.


I understood what you were saying but my position stays the same. It doesn't matter and is not all that interesting or important to take up the precious 42 minutes we have.


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## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

vman41 said:


> Do cell phones work inside semi trailers?


Sure. But only if they don't fall 2 feet to the floor where they shatter like cheap glass.

I can accept shows like this inventing names for fake materials, but they should at least do a google search to see if anything's using it already. A quick search revealed that Cortan "... is quite effective in short-term treatment for flare-ups of rheumatoid arthritis, bursitis, gout and other rheumatic conditions".


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's not that they were lazy. It's that after the pilot was filmed, they were handed notes from the suits saying "make her more robotic."
> 
> That kind of thing is VERY common between pilots and series. In a perfect world they would be given the money to reshoot the entire pilot (and once in a while, that happens), but it's far more typical to only reshoot major plot points and re-cast characters. You just have to assume that when there's a difference, what's in the series is the way it's supposed to be, and just forget about the pilot.


You might be right. We'll see if they manage to keep it above that sort of stuff.


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## rowew (Feb 26, 2003)

Tangent said:


> I can accept shows like this inventing names for fake materials, but they should at least do a google search to see if anything's using it already. A quick search revealed that Cortan "... is quite effective in short-term treatment for flare-ups of rheumatoid arthritis, bursitis, gout and other rheumatic conditions".


Except you did a quick search for the wrong word ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(fictional)


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Either I've always read it wrong, or they pronounced it wrong, but I've always read "coltan" as just that "col tan", not "col tane" like they pronounced it. Anyone know what the proper way to say it is?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

MickeS said:


> Anyone know what the proper way to say it is?


Do you mean now or in the future?


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

I wonder if John is ever going to remember that he used to be a gay guy in love with an immortal cheerleader?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

busyba said:


> I wonder if John is ever going to remember that he used to be a gay guy in love with an immortal cheerleader?


That was just one of Sarah's nightmares.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

MickeS said:


> That was just one of Sarah's nightmares.


Of course by "Sarah", you mean "his agent".


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

MickeS said:


> I'm not talking about suspension of disbelief. Why Snow White ate the apple was better explained than how Cameron managed to act like a regular girl in the "Terminator" pilot episode, but is apparently totally incapable of acting even remotely human after that.


Yes...that has bugged me since the first episode...and now other eye-rolling moments are happening more often.


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

scottykempf said:


> Several points:
> 
> 1. When they showed the video of them appearing in present day, they saw the terminator head. Didn't the head come through later than when they did (That's how I recall it when they showed it in the earlier episode.)
> 
> ...


+1


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

Her processor was probably built by Microshaft thats why she is so slow at learning to act human.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

scottykempf said:


> 4.) John doesn't know how to drive stick? WTF? What kind of training is Sarah giving John? Along with other essential skills you would think she would teach him at an early age to drive automatic as well as stick in case they were in a situation where he had to drive away from, I don't know, maybe a TERMINATOR???


Another example of writers just throwing in a situation because it'll be a good scene (trying to escape, but can't due to stick shift), not thinking about how it fits in the story as a whole. OF COURSE John should know how to drive stick, but they leave the viewers to come up with an excuse for why he can't.
Lazy writing at its finest.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> She said something about that one pallet of fakeonium being equivalent to 400+ terminators. I would think that bar must be good for more than just minor repairs.
> 
> I think I'm going to pretend that the show doesn't have previously existing canon. Skynet sending other terminators back in time to put things in place so that when judgement day happens, it will have more (?) terminators than it did originally just seems like too much extra effort. Wouldn't a computer system figure the path with the least number of things that can go wrong that would have the highest probability of success? It's not like the metal bars can just make themselves into terminators. They have to have the equipment. JD is only 4 years away but it looked as though the terminator locking himself in there with the metal wouldn't be very helpful. *I know they said that when JD happens the blast destroys the building and leaves Terminator and the metal exposed but four years is a long time. *
> 
> Am I missing something?


No, I think you're adding something. There was no mention that the building is destroyed on Judgment Day. In fact, Cameron said that it was the site of the Terminator factory where she was built. Thus, it was a perfect place for them to hide the Coltan.


scottykempf said:


> Several points:
> 
> 1. When they showed the video of them appearing in present day, they saw the terminator head. Didn't the head come through later than when they did (That's how I recall it when they showed it in the earlier episode.)


I'm pretty sure the blast that blew up the Terminator in 1999 and the one that opened the portal were nearly simultaneous. It might have been a second or two later, but not minutes. And remember that the video they were watching in this episode that showed the head coming through was filmed at least a few seconds after they got through the time portal, because the kid in the car would have needed time to process what he was seeing, then get his phone out to record it.


scottykempf said:


> 2.) Ok, so they show the Hummer and the truck going through the base security gate. But they never show Sarah, John and "Terminator" go through the gate, nor do they show how they got off the base without detection.


As previously pointed out, what would be the point of that? Are we supposed to have such little regard for the heroes of this show that we don't believe they can sneak onto a military shooting range that's bigger than Los Angeles County?


scottykempf said:


> 4.) John doesn't know how to drive stick? WTF? What kind of training is Sarah giving John? Along with other essential skills you would think she would teach him at an early age to drive automatic as well as stick in case they were in a situation where he had to drive away from, I don't know, maybe a TERMINATOR???





MickeS said:


> Another example of writers just throwing in a situation because it'll be a good scene (trying to escape, but can't due to stick shift), not thinking about how it fits in the story as a whole. OF COURSE John should know how to drive stick, but they leave the viewers to come up with an excuse for why he can't.
> Lazy writing at its finest.


Not lazy writing. The kid is supposed to be 16. Regardless of whether he knew how to drive a stick, he probably doesn't have a ton of experience. Haven't you ever gotten in an unfamiliar car and ground the gears a little before figuring out how the clutch and gears interact? It's different with every vehicle, and it would be very different with a deuce-and-a-half like that than any car he's previously been trained on.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Not lazy writing. The kid is supposed to be 16. Regardless of whether he knew how to drive a stick, he probably doesn't have a ton of experience. Haven't you ever gotten in an unfamiliar car and ground the gears a little before figuring out how the clutch and gears interact? It's different with every vehicle, and it would be very different with a deuce-and-a-half like that than any car he's previously been trained on.


See, now you're doing the writers' work.  Sarah's comments clearly indicated he had not learned to drive stick.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

MickeS said:


> See, now you're doing the writers' work.  Sarah's comments clearly indicated he had not learned to drive stick.


I think she was saying that he's going to have to learn to drive stick WELL, not that he didn't know how at all. He was already pushing the clutch in, but he just had to push it all the way to the floor in that particular car, whereas many cars don't require such pressure on the clutch. He'd probably just never been in such a temperamental vehicle.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

S: I thought you said you could drive.
J: It's jammed or something!
S: Step on the clutch.
S: Hard!
[John tries to get the truck to drive]
S: If you're gonna be a hero, you gotta learn how to drive stick.
[Sarah takes control of the stick shift and pushes it into gear]


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## bsnelson (Oct 30, 1999)

MickeS said:


> I'm not talking about suspension of disbelief. Why Snow White ate the apple was better explained than how Cameron managed to act like a regular girl in the "Terminator" pilot episode, but is apparently totally incapable of acting even remotely human after that.





MickeS said:


> The point is that she WAS perfect in the first episode, then regressed. It's annoying that the viewers will have to make up the excuses for why this happened, when the writers were too lazy to care.


OK, here's your answer:

She's said numerous times that she doesn't sleep. One of those nights, she watched "Firefly" and said "I wanna be JUST like that chick!"

Brad


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

I loved that they left the one guy in the middle of a mine field. If he was smart he would have just followed her footprints...


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## Bob_Newhart (Jul 14, 2004)

I hope the next episode has more action. this one was too slow.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

i just assume if we dont' see it, she killed them all


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

danplaysbass said:


> I loved that they left the one guy in the middle of a mine field. If he was smart he would have just followed her footprints...


Except he probably has bigger feet.


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## BlearyEyed (Jun 11, 2002)

On the driving stick question, personally to me it seemed like a pretty minor moment in an overall show, but it seems to have gotten a lot of play here.

I'm going off memory, but wasn't there a part in the beginning of the episode where they were getting ready to go somewhere and John tossed Sara the keys. She responded with something along the lines of "You do know you are going to have to learn to drive." To which he responded in typical 16 yr old fashion, "I know how to drive."

That to me was the moment where I said to myself that sometime later there would be a moment when his driving would come into play, and therefore it didn't surprise me when he struggled with driving stick. It seemed like he'd been taught, but as others have said he's a teenager without much driving experience driving a temperamental vehicle. It all made sense to me.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

busyba said:


> I wonder if John is ever going to remember that he used to be a gay guy in love with an immortal cheerleader?





MickeS said:


> That was just one of Sarah's nightmares.





busyba said:


> Of course by "Sarah", you mean "his agent".


Dekker's agent: "You do not remember the character of Zach on Heroes."
(Jedi Hand Wave)


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

BlearyEyed said:


> I'm going off memory, but wasn't there a part in the beginning of the episode where they were getting ready to go somewhere and John tossed Sara the keys. She responded with something along the lines of "You do know you are going to have to learn to drive." To which he responded in typical 16 yr old fashion, "I know how to drive."


Good point, I had forgotten about that. I forgive the writers.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Posting "I'm sorry" to the suicide girl's memorial site is going to bite John in the arse.
You watch.


ETA: _Although, they didn't actually show him hit 'enter'._
What happens when you close a laptop mid-post?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Sirius Black said:


> I'll have to beg forgiveness for over analyzing. I just watched the movie "Primer". It requires over analyzation just to be able to understand what the movie was about. My frustration with that movie spilled over into writing about this show.


Hell, *with* overanalyzation, that movie is hard to understand.. Only in the commentary did I find out something very important to the story (vague since I don't remember the exact situation).. still good movie. I love time travel mind-freak movies.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

mattack said:


> Hell, *with* overanalyzation, that movie is hard to understand.. Only in the commentary did I find out something very important to the story (vague since I don't remember the exact situation).. still good movie. I love time travel mind-freak movies.


I've watched it once, with noisy kids in the room. I only got the basic gist of it, yet it's one of my favorite movies.  Gotta watch it again sometime. Alone. With a notebook. And a calculator.

Greg


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## needo (Jul 9, 2003)

steve614 said:


> ETA: _Although, they didn't actually show him hit 'enter'._What happens when you close a laptop mid-post?


Depends on the configuration of the laptop 99% of them will go to "sleep" or in to a hibernation mode to save battery power. So when you open it back up it is back exactly where you left it.


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## chavez (Nov 18, 2004)

why is the termanator called "cromartie"?


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

chavez said:


> why is the termanator called "cromartie"?


That was the name he used when he was pretending to be the substitute teacher at John's school. I don't know if there's any other reason beyond that.


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## mrmike (May 2, 2001)

getbak said:


> That was the name he used when he was pretending to be the substitute teacher at John's school. I don't know if there's any other reason beyond that.


Chrome Artie?

Someone just has a punnish bent.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

gchance said:


> I've watched it once, with noisy kids in the room. I only got the basic gist of it, yet it's one of my favorite movies.  Gotta watch it again sometime. Alone. With a notebook. And a calculator.
> 
> Greg


Perhaps getting Carl Sagan (you would have to use the box to go back and get him or just bring him the movie) or Stephan Hawking would help explain it. The version I watched did not have commentary. That would convince me to watch again if it promised to explain the movie. In English. Using small words.

It is lucky we have two shows right now that don't seem to be in danger of cancellation (Terminator and Lost) that are filling the gap left by other shows who are on hiatus. So far, Fox is - more or less - doing a good job with the Terminator IP.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

I think they're doing TOO much time travel, sending terminators, resistance fighters and engineers back and forth all over the timeline. Remember in the first movie the whole point was that the resistance had won, and Arnold was sent back as a last-ditch effort, and Reese to counter that. It was very clear there was "NO GOING HOME." Terminators all over the past with different missions? Time machines that Reese and Arnold didn't know about?

It's as if in the post-judgment day future John and Skynet's brain are playing some four-dimensional chess match and just making counter-moves in the past to ensure their own survival.

(Let's ignore the overall paradox of someone sending their father back in time to conceive themselves ... they wouldn't exist to do so ... and yes this applies to humans and skynet)

At some point you ask yourself why Skynet doesn't send an army of Terminators back 1000 years to wipe out a human race that wouldn't have the technology to defend themselves.........

I'm sure the writers will blow my mind again when John winds up in high school with teenage Kyle Reese.......


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

MacThor said:


> At some point you ask yourself why Skynet doesn't send an army of Terminators back 1000 years to wipe out a human race that wouldn't have the technology to defend themselves.........


Then who would create the terminators in the first place?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Then who would create the terminators in the first place?


True. But what about killing Sarah as a girl? Or Sarah's mother or father?


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

ihatecable said:


> For a moment I thought John might not know how to use a rotory phone,lol


Nah, he's from '99....upped the odds a little.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> True. But what about killing Sarah as a girl? Or Sarah's mother or father?


It was stated in T1 that Skynet didn't have enough information to determine who Sarah's parents were.
All they really had was a name and a city.

Don't forget that T1 killed two other women named Sarah Conner before targeting John's mother.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

JYoung said:


> It was stated in T1 that Skynet didn't have enough information to determine who Sarah's parents were.
> All they really had was a name and a city.
> 
> Don't forget that T1 killed two other women named Sarah Conner before targeting John's mother.


Right, and they had to go to a year where Sarah should have her own home and would be in the phone book.

-smak-


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

I found the whole "standby" mode to be a bit silly. What's the point? Do the power cells run out -- and didn't we already learn that they would last for ages? It just seems like a liability without cause. Now, it's a small thing, but combined with the other sloppy plotting -- the head that made it through the time travel (and no reason it needed to, it could just have survived for four years in the rubble), for instance -- it's just adding up to a sense that the writers are being sloppy. In a show about time travel.

Now add to that the fact that they're making time travel too widely available. Once you have the situation where you can keep sending stuff back at will to whatever time you want, time travel becomes a huge source of gaping holes unless your plotting is impossibly accurate. The whole reason T1 worked is because they couldn't send back more. T2 bent that slightly but it wasn't hard to imagine there were two facilities and the same situation repeated, with the same limitations. But now with both sides sending back whole groups of people/robots setting up secret facilities and underground movements, there isn't a single plot point that doesn't end up making no sense if you stop to think for even five minutes.

I'm happy to suspend disbelief, and I'm still watching. But it would have been so much better to my tastes without the "unrestricted access to time travel" element thrown in. I know the writers think they need it to give everyone enough stuff to do to sustain a whole series. I think they're wrong, that this is the "easy way" and that it's just undermining both the logic and the entire _feel_ of T1 and T2. And with that as the basis of the show, getting sloppy on little things like plastic surgery and Cromartie's head is just compounding a problem.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

With regard to the time travel problem, isn't it possible (and likely) that if they developed the technology in the future, that it would become increasingly easy and available? Thus, while it was very limited in T1 and T2, it's not so limited anymore.

(Yes, I'm ignoring the fact that more time traveling Terminators means less likelihood that John Connor survives, but that's the suspension of disbelief we have to have.)


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Thus, while it was very limited in T1 and T2, it's not so limited anymore.


Are you suggesting that because _T1_ and _T2_ took place before the TV show _chronologically_ that has any effect on when technology from the future could be used to return to this time?

Look, we don't know "when" Cameron is from, but everything suggests that she's from a point in John's lifetime. If at some point in the next 40 or 50 years time travel is really easy, why didn't the SkyNet _from that time_ send back advanced terminators to take out John when he was a kid? Or Sarah before John was born? If SkyNet at any point developed the capability to send multiple terminators back, why not send 50 after the pregnant Sarah?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> Are you suggesting that because _T1_ and _T2_ took place before the TV show _chronologically_ that has any effect on when technology from the future could be used to return to this time?
> 
> Look, we don't know "when" Cameron is from, but everything suggests that she's from a point in John's lifetime. If at some point in the next 40 or 50 years time travel is really easy, why didn't the SkyNet _from that time_ send back advanced terminators to take out John when he was a kid? Or Sarah before John was born? If SkyNet at any point developed the capability to send multiple terminators back, why not send 50 after the pregnant Sarah?


Did you not see the second paragraph of my post? I realize the problems with this. I'm just saying that what Hunter Green was complaining about doesn't make any sense, because if you say that the time-travel capability was limited in T1 and T2, that doesn't necessarily mean that it had to be limited at future points.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Did you not see the second paragraph of my post?


Of course I did.

Your second paragraph discussed how that would effect the show. I am pointing out that there's no logic in the show's worldview to say that anything's changed from _T1_ to the show. Though to us _T1_ came first and then _T2_ and then the show, if you have time travel there's no reason why the terminator from _T1_ needed to be sent back before the more advanced terminators from _T2_ or the multiple terminators from the show.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> Of course I did.
> 
> Your second paragraph discussed how that would effect the show. I am pointing out that there's no logic in the show's worldview to say that anything's changed from _T1_ to the show. Though to us _T1_ came first and then _T2_ and then the show, if you have time travel there's no reason why the terminator from _T1_ needed to be sent back before the more advanced terminators from _T2_ or the multiple terminators from the show.


Now you're overanalyzing it. Of course, if SkyNet had the luxury of waiting until the end of time* and then having hindsight, then it could just wait until the technology is so advanced that it's indestructible and then send back one million of them to kill John Connor. Or send them all back to the day after Judgment Day to hunt and kill any remaining humans, including John Connor.

But SkyNet exists in a linear timeline just like we do. When it developed the time-travel and Terminator technology, it immediately sent one back to kill Sarah (T1). As their technology progressed, they sent back a more advanced Terminator to kill John (T2). Clearly, in the further future (as portrayed by the TV show), they've developed the time-travel technology to allow it to be much more common. If you've got a problem with SkyNet's future strategy of not simply overrunning the current timeline with Terminators in an effort to ensure that John is killed, that's a valid argument. But for Hunter Green to complain that there's too much time travel in the TV show based on the fact that there was limited time travel in the movies, that's a flawed argument. That's all I'm saying.

*Yes, I realize that "end of time" is another problematic concept.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

The main assumption that if John Conner isn't there, no one else would step up and become a good leader is a little shaky, isn't it? Or is there something more to it than that? I've seen all the movies, but just as entertainment, not as thesis material. Sending 1 or 2 guys back to get rid of him seems different from sending the whole army. They may not want to put all their eggs in that basket.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

wouldn't sending large #s back cause an issue w/being 'found out' and the future adjusted accordingly because of it. imagine if they sent back 200 and the world saw what they were/figured it out, then SkyNet is never built perhaps? i'd guess they send small #s back to avoid detection/timeline issues.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> The main assumption that if John Conner isn't there, no one else would step up and become a good leader is a little shaky, isn't it? Or is there something more to it than that? I've seen all the movies, but just as entertainment, not as thesis material. Sending 1 or 2 guys back to get rid of him seems different from sending the whole army. They may not want to put all their eggs in that basket.


Well the point of John Connor isn't that he's the leader, he's the polarizing force. It's not that he's a single member of the resistance, he IS the resistance. Without him, it never gets started, at least not in the form it took with him.

Greg


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Real post to Yahoo Answers... honest:



> Why do the terminators want to kill John Conner?
> In the show " Terminator: The Sarah Conner Chronicles" Why are they after her son?
> What is the deal?
> Someone summarize me what i need to know, cuz i just started watching it, n i hav no clue wts it about bt i wanna wtch it cuz iz interesting
> ...


Heh.

Greg


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

How do we know that? Has there been a time line with John dead?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Clearly, in the further future (as portrayed by the TV show), they've developed the time-travel technology to allow it to be much more common.


This quote illustrates the problem in your thinking.

You're assuming that from SkyNet's point of view, it sent back Cromartie et al to the past time *after* it sent the T-1000 back (for _T2_). There's simply no basis for this reasoning.

If anything, a stronger argument could be made that all the SkyNet terminators that are featured in the TV show were sent back *before* the T-1000 was sent back. After all, the T-1000 is much more technically advanced than the _T1_ or TV show terminators. It would make sense to think that SkyNet would send back the most advanced terminators it could manufacture.

If that's true, then it doesn't make sense to talk about how all the terminators littering the TV show is a result of advancement in time-travel technology.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> This quote illustrates the problem in your thinking.
> 
> You're assuming that from SkyNet's point of view, it sent back Cromartie et al to the past time *after* it sent the T-1000 back (for _T2_). There's simply no basis for this reasoning.
> 
> ...


You make a good point, but I can turn it back around on you. If SkyNet has the ability to send back multiple Terminators before developing the T1000, then why did it only send back one? Didn't it learn its lesson when the T800 failed in T1?

And thus, the problem with time travel shows.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

We don't know that it only sent one T-1000 back. Yes, we only saw one but there could have been dozens sent all over the country. The movie just focused on the one that happened to find John.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> We don't know that it only sent one T-1000 back. Yes, we only saw one but there could have been dozens sent all over the country. The movie just focused on the one that happened to find John.


There is a (probably non-canon, but still) comic book in which they sent back TWO T1000s, but one of them ended up in the wrong time...


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

Maybe it's future John Connor's girlfriend, Cameron, who is actually the person who starts the resistance, using him as a puppet figurehead.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

I think the whole point of my post was missed.

First of all, Kyle made clear that they found the research into time travel just as it was being finished, sent him through, and blew it up. The fact that another Arnold, or ten more Arnolds, didn't show up a second later seemed to suggest what he told was right. But there was enough room for uncertainty to make T2 possible. Again, we assume (though it wasn't made explicit) that if they could have sent through 10 they would have, and they didn't because they couldn't.

The problem with being able to send 10 through is not that it doesn't make sense that the technology could advance to that point. The problem is that it _breaks the story_. It's a storywriter's problem. Sure, you can write a story where time travel is easy, but the story falls apart. So as a storywriter it is a bad idea.

It's similar to the Peter problem in Heroes. Peter is way too powerful. Any problem you throw at him, he could solve if he was smart enough to strategize a little, and knew about his powers. So the writers have to keep him dumb, impulsive, and amnesiac. If they ever run out of reasons to do that, the show falls apart.

So if Skynet can send 10 Terminators back to different times, with whatever programming it wants, how many different plans can you think of in the next ten minutes that would eliminate John Conner and that they couldn't stop? How about having one Terminator go back and just try to _find out who Sarah was before Kyle's arrival_ while remaining low-key enough to get away with it, then a second one to take her out when she was 6 years old? How about sending ten more Terminators back to that factory where the first one got crushed, to take Sarah out when she was alone and wounded and couldn't fight back? And if they didn't do it, send 10 more. Keep "rewriting" that scene until it comes out with a dead Sarah.

The only storywriting technique to handle so overpowering a force as arbitrary time travel (and a plastic past) is to put severe limits on it. For instance, "only one got through and then we smashed the machine and destroyed the research". Once you get rid of that, you create huge huge problems.

Maybe you can address them some other way. I'm still hoping they will. But I'm losing confidence that they can, given their sloppiness in other areas. I'll still enjoy the ride, but not as much as I would have, if the story also made sense.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Hunter Green said:


> How about sending ten more Terminators back to that factory where the first one got crushed, to take Sarah out when she was alone and wounded and couldn't fight back? And if they didn't do it, send 10 more. Keep "rewriting" that scene until it comes out with a dead Sarah.


One reason why SkyNet couldn't do that is because it has no way of knowing when, where or how the T-1000 was defeated.

And while it's true that the past is "plastic", SkyNet needs to be careful not to change things so much that it doesn't get invented/activated.


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## robpickles (May 19, 2005)

Amnesia said:


> One reason why SkyNet couldn't do that is because it has no way of knowing when, where or how the T-1000 was defeated.
> 
> And while it's true that the past is "plastic", SkyNet needs to be careful not to change things so much that it doesn't get invented/activated.


This is true about anyone or anything they sent back.

They wont know what happened to the terminators or people sent back unless they survivied long enough into the future to tell someone.

Then you have to consider the problems involved with altering the timeline. Everytime they send a terminator or person back, it has a chance of altering the timeline where that mission to go back in time didn't or wouldn't happen in the first place.

We just have to accept that anything can happen with a plausible explanation that it could have happened in the future and also could have been changed by those actions.

Rob


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

I actually think, and I know I'm probably alone in this, that the first two movies suggest that the past _isn't_ plastic -- that everything that happened as a result of time travel had always happened. That Kyle is, and always was, John's father, for instance. Thus, time travel into the past can't change the present, though it can turn out to be responsible for the present that already is.

The originally filmed ending to T2 that they didn't end up using would have contravened this, but without it, nothing in T2 contradicts it. Miles Dyson blowing up Cyberdyne didn't prevent Judgment Day, never could have, because it had always been blown up.

This approach to time travel is a lot harder for people to understand and accept so hardly anyone uses it in anything longer than a Twilight Zone sketch. It's also hard to write that way, especially for a series. And T1 and T2 worked perfectly well without the audience even having an opinion about the plasticity of history. (_12 Monkeys_ is another incredibly good example of an inelastic history done well.) So it's just a personal preference for me, that they seem to support an inelastic past, and they work perfectly well that way.

But TSCC definitely insists on a plastic past, and that means they can't help but run into its consequences.

(Incidentally, do you really think the dead body, blood, crushed machines, etc. in that factory didn't even get into police records, let alone the news? A T-1000 should be able to identify that moment with about 2 hours of detective work. And that's just one of many things they could find out. If you can spare a robot to just watch some blast doors, you can spare one to do a few hours of research, write the answer down and leave it in a vault, then go check the vault and send a second robot to act on that information.)


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Hunter Green said:


> I actually think, and I know I'm probably alone in this, that the first two movies suggest that the past _isn't_ plastic -- that everything that happened as a result of time travel had always happened. That Kyle is, and always was, John's father, for instance. Thus, time travel into the past can't change the present, though it can turn out to be responsible for the present that already is.


That's certainly consistent with the movies, but I think one important factor is that SkyNet believes that it's possible to change things---that's why it sent Arnold back...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Skynet's inherent problem is that it's stupid...or their terminators don't have enough memory...how else do you explain that their terminators can only carry out one mission and one mission only?

here's a thought: all Terminators going into the past should have "Kill John if you see him" as their secondary mission...why go into standby for 4 years when you can go out after completing the primary mission and try to kill John?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Anubys said:


> here's a thought: all Terminators going into the past should have "Kill John if you see him" as their secondary mission...why go into standby for 4 years when you can go out after completing the primary mission and try to kill John?


Yeah, but they don't know what John looks like---that's why in the pilot the "substitute teacher" needed to take attendance...


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## footballdude (Apr 16, 2004)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Reese say in the original Terminator that John and the resistance had destroyed Skynet? And that Skynet in a desperation ploy sent one terminator back to kill John's mother before he could be born right before getting destroyed itself. It's been awhile since I saw that movie but that's how I remember it. If that's the case, T2 shouldn't have happened, nor any of this other stuff. If Skynet somehow survived, then pretty much anything time travel related is possible.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

footballdude said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Reese say in the original Terminator that John and the resistance had destroyed Skynet? And that Skynet in a desperation ploy sent one terminator back to kill John's mother before he could be born right before getting destroyed itself. It's been awhile since I saw that movie but that's how I remember it. If that's the case, T2 shouldn't have happened, nor any of this other stuff. If Skynet somehow survived, then pretty much anything time travel related is possible.


Funny you should ask this, since I just watched The Terminator yesterday, specifically in response to being annoyed by my lack of memory while in these threads.

At any rate, the resistance ALMOST destroyed Skynet. Reese has no idea if Skynet was destroyed, he left before it was completely over. They found the Time Displacement Machine just after Arnie left, so they sent Kyle Reese. They didn't specifically say, but watching last night my thought was Kyle didn't leave immediately, they had to reverse-engineer the machine first.

Another interesting thing to me was that Reese didn't know what the Terminator looked like. He had suspicions, but didn't know for sure until he tried to kill Sarah, which is why he tailed her secretly to start.

The whole thing is a muddled mess, actually, due to the paradoxes. Kyle Reese explains to Sarah Connor about who John Connor is, and describes how his mother was so strong and taught him how to fight BEFORE THE WAR, preparing for the future. That indicates that while the future hasn't happened yet, it will happen, and can't be changed. Kyle Reese knew it was a one-way, suicide mission going back to stop the Terminator, but he also knew it was his destiny. He was also a bag of rocks, he didn't appear to be the most brilliant person on earth. 

The only way that I can see T2 happening was there was another Time Displacement Machine the resistance didn't know about, but discovered later and sent Protector Arnie back in T2. Kyle Reese specifically says they destroyed the machine as soon as he went through.

So how could another Terminator be sent back? It sounds likely there was another time displacement machine. There had to have been, the resistance destroyed it as soon as Kyle Reese went through.

My apologies if I'm not making sense.

Greg


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Skynet buys them on the cheap from Time Displacement R Us?


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## slydog75 (Jul 8, 2004)

Hunter Green said:


> I actually think, and I know I'm probably alone in this, that the first two movies suggest that the past _isn't_ plastic -- that everything that happened as a result of time travel had always happened. That Kyle is, and always was, John's father, for instance. Thus, time travel into the past can't change the present, though it can turn out to be responsible for the present that already is.
> 
> The originally filmed ending to T2 that they didn't end up using would have contravened this, but without it, nothing in T2 contradicts it. Miles Dyson blowing up Cyberdyne didn't prevent Judgment Day, never could have, because it had always been blown up.
> 
> ...


What would the point of all this time travel be if nothing can be changed?


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## mikebridge (Sep 18, 2000)

various things:
summernator's bar? perhaps thats the bar she's made out of by the resistance in the future (especially since the one terminator didn't recognize what she was -- and fled because of it).

time travel + quantity of terminators = depending on the production speed, tactical needs at the time, and excess power generation capabilities at various times in the future, could determine how many skynet can send at a time (and how far into the past depending on the juice available). the T1000 + TX would appear to be specifically made for the time travel issue, where as the original arnie T800 was a generic infiltrator model.

summernator humanity/weirdness - initial mission is infiltrate, and locate john, once thats done, CPU swaps over to paranoid/protect mode, and the 'humanity' stuff gets lower priority in process scheduling?

john as secondary/tertiary target to all nator's: i think they address that in the 2nd episode, that the nator's don't know he's there, so they won't look for him, but if they find out, then they will.

bunker/terminator/standby - lock the door so some accountant doesn't come down there and find a stack of non inventory metal bars sitting around. standby mode to reduce ill effects of EMP pulse during JD -- or that 'nator's been there longer then we know of, and its power remaining is insufficient -- or power signature would make it susceptible to detection methods?

metal head + time portal - weapons, etc can't go back in time, nobody's defined what you can send forward in time.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

footballdude said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Reese say in the original Terminator that John and the resistance had destroyed Skynet? And that Skynet in a desperation ploy sent one terminator back to kill John's mother before he could be born right before getting destroyed itself. It's been awhile since I saw that movie but that's how I remember it. If that's the case, T2 shouldn't have happened, nor any of this other stuff. If Skynet somehow survived, then pretty much anything time travel related is possible.


Didn't they recover his arm and the chip, and isn't that how Miles Dyson was able to do everything to get skynet created.

It seems that however skynet was created in the first place, having the arm and chip from a Termintor would accelerate it greatly, so maybe Skynet is that much more advanced in the future.

Unless it's the arm and the chip that created Skynet in the first place, ala Kyle's time travel making John Connor possible in the first place.

Head hurts.

-smak-


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## slydog75 (Jul 8, 2004)

Are we sure ALL of the 'terminators' in this episode where from the future? I kind of got the feeling that the ones who were doing more mundane missions might have been from the present time. AFter all the war is only 4 years away. They didn't build their entire fleet in a day.


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## mikebridge (Sep 18, 2000)

slydog75 said:


> Are we sure ALL of the 'terminators' in this episode where from the future? I kind of got the feeling that the ones who were doing more mundane missions might have been from the present time. AFter all the war is only 4 years away. They didn't build their entire fleet in a day.


in the overall storyline, JD is when skynet gains selfawareness and nukes the large population centers and strategic targets, then starts building 'hunter killers', then later on makes the 'infiltrator' models to try to take out the remaining human resistance.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

One thing that irritated me: 

When the cell phone breaks and they lose track of John, Sarah says "I can't believe I let him talk me into this." Well, duh, you didn't let him talk you into this. You told him not to and then he snuck off and did it anyway.

It's like they rewrite part of the script and then they forget to rewrite other parts that reference it. Sloppy.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

mikebridge said:


> metal head + time portal - weapons, etc can't go back in time, nobody's defined what you can send forward in time.


Not to mention, this is a different time displacement machine than the other. Its rules could be different anyway.

Greg


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

slydog75 said:


> What would the point of all this time travel be if nothing can be changed?


Good movies.

From Skynet's viewpoint? It must think that time travel _can_ change the past. It hasn't really had a chance to test the theory, what with it being so busy in a desperate bid to save its own existence using equipment it had just barely finished getting built.

If it turns out to be wrong, then a) the human race is saved, and b) we get some good movies that also provide an interesting take on cause and effect if you happen to be into thinking about such things, and which can also be enjoyed as full-out action movies if you don't.

(I think it's clear that T2 happened because there was a secret backup time travel machine that was found after Kyle left. But you can't really play that game too many times before it starts being corny. Then again... how many times did Jessica Fletcher happen into a town just before a murder happened there? Corny is relative to willingness of suspension of disbelief.)


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## mrmike (May 2, 2001)

appleye1 said:


> One thing that irritated me:
> 
> When the cell phone breaks and they lose track of John, Sarah says "I can't believe I let him talk me into this." Well, duh, you didn't let him talk you into this. You told him not to and then he snuck off and did it anyway.
> 
> It's like they rewrite part of the script and then they forget to rewrite other parts that reference it. Sloppy.


"This" was going on the raid in the first place. Not being a moron and running off into the warehouse and getting trapped in the truck.


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## mrmike (May 2, 2001)

Hunter Green said:


> Then again... how many times did Jessica Fletcher happen into a town just before a murder happened there?


There's an essay somewhere out there in the intertubes about how Jessica Fletcher is really the worlds craftiest and most prolific serial killer.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

mrmike said:


> There's an essay somewhere out there in the intertubes about how Jessica Fletcher is really the worlds craftiest and most prolific serial killer.


Jessica Fletcher makes Typhoid Mary look like a genuine humanitarian. Cabot Cove must have been the murder capitol of America for a number of years back then.



appleye1 said:


> When the cell phone breaks and they lose track of John, Sarah says...


 And this goes to show you about technology. Skynet becomes active in what, four or so years according to Cameron. In four years machines are being manufactured that can handle bombs and fire, but his phone shatters being dropped a few feet onto an unreinforced floor. Some advancements have to be made!


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## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

gchance said:


> Funny you should ask this, since I just watched The Terminator yesterday, specifically in response to being annoyed by my lack of memory while in these threads.
> 
> At any rate, the resistance ALMOST destroyed Skynet. Reese has no idea if Skynet was destroyed, he left before it was completely over. They found the Time Displacement Machine just after Arnie left, so they sent Kyle Reese. They didn't specifically say, but watching last night my thought was Kyle didn't leave immediately, they had to reverse-engineer the machine first.
> 
> ...


The way I see the timeline. (Which could be completely wrong...)

- Skynet sends original terminator to kill Sarah in the 80s (first movie)
- Apparently didn't work since John is still around
- Skynet sends a few more terminators to kill John directly and do things to help in the future like stockpiling coltan (TV series)
- Apparently didn't work since John is still around
- Develop new model T1000 and send it back to kill John
- Apparently didn't work since John is _still_ around
- Develop even more advanced TX model and send it back to kill John's leutenants since they can't seem to kill John directly (T3)
- Resistance manages to capture time travel facility
- John sends Kyle back to save his mother in the 80s (T1)
- Resistance captures terminator production line and just now knows what all the models look like (Assuming they are limited to a fixed number of templates)
- Resistance sends back a pair of fresh-off-the-line Arnie models to protect John from the T1000 and TX, probably because that model was the latest batch in production when the factory was captured (T2, T3)
- Resistance sends the Summer model to protect and guide him (TV series)


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## needo (Jul 9, 2003)

Tangent said:


> - Resistance sends back a pair of fresh-off-the-line Arnie models to protect John from the T1000 and TX, probably because that model was the latest batch in production when the factory was captured (T2, T3)


The T2 model was captured and reprogrammed. So was the T3 model. (I won't say any more as to not spoil T3 movie. And yes I am a Terminator nerd.)


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> Jessica Fletcher makes Typhoid Mary look like a genuine humanitarian. Cabot Cove must have been the murder capitol of America for a number of years back then.


In one of the few episodes I did see, the sheriff of Cabot Cove (played by the incomparable Ron Masak), did exclaim upon finding a body, "What is this, the murder capital of the United States?"

I suspect that is partly why they made the later move of having Jessica teach part time at NYU.



needo said:


> The T2 model was captured and reprogrammed. So was the T3 model. (I won't say any more as to not spoil T3 movie. And yes I am a Terminator nerd.)


It also doesn't account for who actually reprogrammed the T3 Arnie and why.


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## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

needo said:


> The T2 model was captured and reprogrammed. So was the T3 model. (I won't say any more as to not spoil T3 movie. And yes I am a Terminator nerd.)


Did they ever say how it was captured? In battle or could capturing them fall under the umbrella of having captured the production line? I imagine it would be pretty tough to capture an operational one in battle without causing more damage than they could repair easily before sending it back...


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