# Need to ask more (and the correct) Questions - Don't get Lazy....



## CrimsnTide (Dec 7, 2005)

_Just a short story to make sure everyone knows to ask the RIGHT questions about purchasing USED TiVo's - on E-Bay, Craigslist or wherever....

I'm in the weaning process of cutting the cord. I called and cancelled DirecTV. I'm tired of trying to keep up with the accounts on when the discounts expire, when to call, cancel or beg for them to "lower my bill"... I'm the weak one and was willing to convert to BASIC cable for awhile before I cut that out too. In doing so I was looking for another TiVo to hook up to an existing cable feed - since I already have Internet through Spectrum. I found a Roamio Pro on EBay. Price was a little spendy, but I contacted the seller and asked if it needed a subscription. bisagni,The seller on EBay (from New York) was quick to respond and say "No Subscription required".... NO SUBSCRIPTION REQUIRED...... I have been looking around ebay for awhile and have contacted numerous sellers who most responded to my questioning. If not, I left the auction alone. Apparently I got lazy on this and ASSUMED bisagni and I were on the same page. I made an offer, he countered and we agreed on the price. bisagni was fast to ship and I was actually surprised on how well it was packaged, especially for it not being in the original box. Well, when I went to add onto my account, the TiVo rep said it's NOT activated and I would need to pay for a subscription. I contacted bisagni and told him that it's NOT activated and I cannot add to my account unless I subscribe to TiVo. His reply was that USED the unit without a subscription and that I can too. "No Subscription required" now had a new meaning. I told bisagni that it cannot be used the way it was intended to be used and that I couldn't even put it on my account without subscribing. NO refunds is what he is claiming. I even wrote on my PayPal payment that "This Payment was for 1 Tivo Roamio Pro with LIFETIME service and that could be activated on my account" His response (after taking my payment) was that "was not his ad" Going thru the process now with EBay, Paypal, but I think they'll turn their heads and not do anything. I felt he had enough decent feedback (not anymore).

So bottom line, don't get lazy and don't play a word game with potential sellers. Some will lie, cheat and sell their soul for a little cash. This piece of Sh*$ should rot. Joseph bisagni from New York should not be trusted if you come across is auctions. He doesn't seem to do a lot, but just in case. Who knows, since he has already lied and cheated on this simple transaction. Be diligent, because most of the crooks and dishonest people are too...._


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Link to auction page?


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

Definitely shady.

Technically it doesn't need a subscription. However, it's not a very practical door stop.

In spirit he definitely misled you.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

Can you dispute on PayPal?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Just start with eBay, reporting “not as described”. If that doesn’t encourage him to take it back, you’ll ultimately win the dispute anyway. Painful and time consuming I know, but there’s no reason you should be stuck with this.


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## CrimsnTide (Dec 7, 2005)

As requested here's the link:

TiVo Roamio Pro DVR 3TB for sale online | eBay

Ad doesn't say one way or another. I made contact with the seller.
As the title reads, a potential buyer should ask probably MORE and thorough questions to eliminate any "word games"....

(Actual Messages exchanged from me and the Seller (bisagni):

ME: Does this box require a monthly subscription?
Seller (bisagni): No subscription required

After unit was purchased and received:

Me: I received the TiVo from your auction. When I called TiVo to add to my existing account - they informed me that a SUBSCRIPTION IS REQUIRED. I CANNOT tell you how disappointed I am especially when I contacted BEFORE I placed my offer. The response from you is below "No subscription required". I even wrote this on my PayPal payment: Payment was made for 1 (ONE) TiVo Roamio Pro (3TB) DVR tcd840300 6 tuner dvr w/ remote with a LIFETIME subscription (No subscription required) as noted by seller. Tivo is to be activated on my personal TiVo account,
I would like a refund - and reimbursement for the shipping charges back to you. SUBSCRIPTION IS REQUIRED! See below! Please respond and let me know how to proceed.

Seller (bisagni): No subscription required

Seller (bisagni): You can use it without a subscription. Record and play your own shows. That is how I used it.

Seller (bisagni): You asked if it needs a subscription to be used. Tivo can be used with or without a subscription. I'm sorry you don't want to use it without the guide. There are no refunds.

So the messages just continued back and forth. Him now calling me a Madman. I have contacted Ebay (Good Luck), PayPal (Good Luck), MasterCard (Good Luck) and will contact USPS (Good Luck)

So if you come across a Joseph bisagni out of Montauk N.Y., just stay away from anything he is selling - or renting, or trading. He's untruthful and will probably lie to you about what your actually getting....


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

The listing seems fine for what it is. The transcript of the question you sent with answers introduces a little gray area into the debate. However, he never claimed it had Lifetime, nor advertised it as such.


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## CrimsnTide (Dec 7, 2005)

Yes, for what it is... It didn't say ANYTHING about "Subscription", "Lifetime" "All-In"...... However, I did make contact with the seller and asked about a "monthly subscription being required." His response was "No Subscription Required"...
And the reason for posting.... I can see where I am NOT going to get my money back. I got lazy and did not word my questions correctly. Right? Wrong? Truthful? Dishonest? Is it REALLY a gray area????? Just something to think about when purchasing something (online). I would NEVER mis-lead someone to sale something. I don't feel the SELLER was truthful. When I paid him, I wrote in the text area PayPal allows this:

Payment was made for 1 (ONE) TiVo Roamio Pro (3TB) DVR tcd840300 6 tuner dvr w/ remote with a LIFETIME subscription (No subscription required) as noted by seller. Tivo is to be activated on my personal TiVo account,

His response was "That was not his ad" - and he's right. I ASSUMED it was a lifetime. But he took the payment and I am ASSUMING he knows I cannot register on my account - without a SUBSCRIPTION. But he took the cash KNOWING what I was expecting. Gray area? Sure.

A play on words (Or just plain deceitful). Just a cautionary tale for those who are interested....


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

Are there any shows on it or did he do a clear and delete? 

Any chance TiVo would tell you the former history? Did it ever have a subscription? 

Do people really use a TiVo the way he describes it?


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

We could all spam his other auctions or something.

Items for sale by bisagni | eBay


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## CrimsnTide (Dec 7, 2005)

waynomo said:


> We could all spam his other auctions or something.
> 
> Items for sale by bisagni | eBay


WayNoMo - This was to be more of a informative type post and not one to actually direct retaliation. I'd prefer just to accept it as a lesson learned - and hopefully someone can maybe learn from it too. Expensive on my part, but hopefully a cheap experience if others can maybe benefit? I appreciate the gesture and know it's well meant, but won't make the world any better by retaliating. Although not religious by any means, I do want to believe in Karma....

As far as the shows on the unit, after learning from TiVo it could not be registered unless subscribed to, I did NOT pursue it with my cable company in obtaining a cable card and did not even hook up. Still disgusted (and disappointed). Although cutting the cord will pay off in the long run, it's an expensive venture. I purchased a OTA Roamio recently that was transferred to my account and works beautifully! Maybe that flawless transaction blinded my best judgment.... Thanks


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

He may have been using it without a subscription, but its also a lie about it being able to record. Unless, it was disconnected from the network after the initial setup and never got the no subscription status which would disable everything. 

Another thing, you said you was going to cut the cord. Well, a Roamio Pro is a bad choice as it is cable service only. Cutting the cord usually means going away from any paid TV service and mostly going to antenna.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

That's part of what I was trying to get at. His statements seem very convenient and I am questioning the veracity.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

Does anybody know what the same unit goes for on eBay?


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

waynomo said:


> Does anybody know what the same unit goes for on eBay?


I looked at some completed listings to ballpark it earlier today as I'm way out of touch on the used market right now. Lifetime Roamio 6-tuners seems to be in the $200-$400 range depending on hard drive size. A 3TB like this listing with Lifetime would probably sell in the $350 range right now.


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## CrimsnTide (Dec 7, 2005)

Well, cutting the cord has me going through a little bit of withdrawals. My hope on obtaining a cable unit only would be to satisfy my addiction to watching sports when I am able to. I had planned on Spectums Choice plan. As mentioned, I had already picked up a Roamio OTA w/Lifetime and it does a great job. I'm just a little selfish about losing out on my viewing some of the sports programming.... I was hoping to use both until I could be weaned off my sports shows.... DirecTV was OVER $170 month. Going Spectrum for internet AND cable would be HALF that. A good compromise - for now...

I had a max limit set and I knew the price I paid was below that, but after asking about needing a subscription, I thought we both (Seller AND BUYER) were on the same page. He of course was thinking another way.

I've already got a card reader for the OTA mod, but having four tuners is pushing the limits in our household.... I was just thinking of getting another OTA OR a cable ready box - but it MUST have a ALL IN/Lifetime plan...


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

CrimsnTide said:


> Ad doesn't say one way or another. I made contact with the seller.


Ahh, I see now. You're not on very solid ground for a dispute, as you well know. Seller was definitely misleading in his messages, but was technically correct. No subscription is required if you use it as a door stop.

Thanks for the warning. I've been burned many times buying Tivos and other Tivo related devices on ebay in spite of taking lots of precautions. Luckily all my bad transactions ultimately worked out in my favor.

I say cut your losses and relist this one, then go for an OTA with lifetime that you confirm with Tivo and the TSN BEFORE you click that BIN button.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Personally, I'd file a claim to get my money back. The box requires a subscription to function as advertised.

Per the eBay Money Back Guarantee:

If the item you received doesn't match the description in the original listing, or if it arrived faulty or damaged, you're covered under the eBay Money Back Guarantee. You can return it even if the seller's returns policy says they don't accept returns.

(link)​


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

CrimsnTide said:


> Well, cutting the cord has me going through a little bit of withdrawals. My hope on obtaining a cable unit only would be to satisfy my addiction to watching sports when I am able to. I had planned on Spectums Choice plan. As mentioned, I had already picked up a Roamio OTA w/Lifetime and it does a great job. I'm just a little selfish about losing out on my viewing some of the sports programming.... I was hoping to use both until I could be weaned off my sports shows.... DirecTV was OVER $170 month. Going Spectrum for internet AND cable would be HALF that. A good compromise - for now...
> 
> I had a max limit set and I knew the price I paid was below that, but after asking about needing a subscription, I thought we both (Seller AND BUYER) were on the same page. He of course was thinking another way.
> 
> I've already got a card reader for the OTA mod, but having four tuners is pushing the limits in our household.... I was just thinking of getting another OTA OR a cable ready box - but it MUST have a ALL IN/Lifetime plan...


The emails back and forth are likely available and are misleading, but frankly any listing which does not clearly say the unit has "LIFETIME" or "All in" service I would never even try to deal with. Anyone here knows that it is only the units which have lifetime service which are really worth much. Good luck, but get smart if you can return it.


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## 53richart (Feb 26, 2019)

Since it seems to be a bit of a gray area, perhaps you can negotiate a return for a partial refund. At least you wouldn't be out the whole amount.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Interesting story. There is definitely fault on both sides here: At no point in the transaction does either party appear to have referred to product lifetime (or "All-In") service, which is the point of contention. And the OP is spot-on in drawing the lesson to ask the right questions before buying.

Regardless of his failure to adequately verify the subscription status, there is no doubt in my mind that OP should qualify for a favorable ruling if he files a dispute with eBay. IMHO, the seller's post and his responses were misleading and that fact overrides the buyer's insufficient due diligence.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Just to be clear, TiVos require a service plan to be functional ... either All-In/Lifetime or a *subscription*, monthly or annual; and new units are marketed with the express statement:

Requires subscription to the TiVo service - as low as $12.50/month with annual plan​So, the only boxes that don't require a "subscription" to function are those with a Lifetime/All-In service plan attached.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

I had a Premier that was essentially a functioning cable box with just a cablecard. TiVo may have updated the boxes to be worthless without a subscription. It would receive channels and change channels but no guide or info.


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

I'm on the buyers side with this one. It was listed as a DVR (digital video *recorder*). The seller stated it would work (i.e., record) without a subscription and it obviously doesn't.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

The seller was being misleading in his responses to the item specifications questions. eBay will consider that information, as well as the original listing (I've been through that).

File a dispute with eBay, reference the seller's "no subscription needed" email responses, reference (and include copies of) TiVo's "subscription required" notices, and it is more likely than not that eBay will side with the buyer. Note that returns for "item not as described" reasons reimburse the shipping of the item both ways (when I went through this, eBay sent me a prepaid return address label).

No way would I let this issue pass. Do note the eBay requirements, including the deadlines, for initiating a dispute--I seemingly have had a seller try to run the clock on the initiation of a dispute in the course of my trying to work the matter out directly.

eBay Money Back Guarantee policy


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Seller made the unqualified statement that no subscription was needed, when in fact a subscription is needed. There was no "misleading", it was a straightforward lie.


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## tampa8 (Jan 26, 2016)

ej42137 said:


> Seller made the unqualified statement that no subscription was needed, when in fact a subscription is needed. There was no "misleading", it was a straightforward lie.


I strongly credit the OP for seeing and letting people know you have to ask the right questions.
See, that is not true. You do not need a subscription to hook it up, then change channels and watch TV. The OP is exactly right, you have to ask the right question. The seller darn well knew what the buyer was really asking but the question asked got a true answer back. A decent seller would have added what I just did and said if you want a program guide etc you would need a subscription. You can bet if someone is selling a TIVO with a lifetime subscription attached they will make that very clear.

A decent seller would make a deal to take it back, perhaps in exchange for no rating left or a good rating of the seller since he took it back and at the cost of the buyer. This does not sound like a decent seller. But I don't see that he outright lied or that you can prove he purposely mislead.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

tampa8 said:


> The seller darn well knew what the buyer was really asking but the question asked got a true answer back.


He said no subscription was needed, without making any qualification. That was not a true statement, it was a lie. Saying there are circumstances in which the subscription might not be needed is not what the seller said, he flat out said a subscription is not needed. He wasn't shading the truth, he was making an untrue statement for the purposes of defrauding the buyer. To make the seller's statement true, one would have to add qualifications that the seller did not in fact make.

TL;DR: Seller said no subscription is needed, but seller knows that the buyer would need a subscription.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

tampa8 said:


> The seller darn well knew what the buyer was really asking but the question asked got a true answer back.


If the seller understood the context of what the buyer was asking, then his response was not "true."


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

tampa8 said:


> I strongly credit the OP for seeing and letting people know you have to ask the right questions.
> See, that is not true. You do not need a subscription to hook it up, then change channels and watch TV. The OP is exactly right, you have to ask the right question. The seller darn well knew what the buyer was really asking but the question asked got a true answer back. A decent seller would have added what I just did and said if you want a program guide etc you would need a subscription. You can bet if someone is selling a TIVO with a lifetime subscription attached they will make that very clear.
> 
> A decent seller would make a deal to take it back, perhaps in exchange for no rating left or a good rating of the seller since he took it back and at the cost of the buyer. This does not sound like a decent seller. But I don't see that he outright lied or that you can prove he purposely mislead.


But, of course, you _do_ need a subscription to use the TiVo box, as was noted above, as a DV*R*, what it is supposed to be, as vs. as a tuner (or, as others have noted, as a doorstop). Frankly, the seller was just bucking for a dispute to be filed against him on the sale, with his approach--very short-sighted.


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## tampa8 (Jan 26, 2016)

You all have to keep adding things never talked about or even mentioned to make your point. Who said anything about a DVR? The buyer, the seller? In fact who ever said lifetime service, the buyer the seller? No one did. You can't say the seller lied if he does not advertise it has lifetime service, is not asked what works what does not work with no service. That wasn't the question and you make it more than what was asked by adding words never used, DVR, Lifetime etc. But as much as the seller should have explained more the fact is he didn't lie. There are several sites including this one that talk about using a Tivo without a subscription. You can't assume it has lifetime service when it was never mentioned by the seller. And you can't bring up not being a DVR when not asked by the buyer. The seller answered do you need a subscription with a true answer that other sites online will back-up that you do not. What it can't do was never asked nor answered.
If misleading is grounds for ebay to take action or insist on the buyer taking the item back I can certainly see misleading if intent can be found. But he did not lie or even make false claims.


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## DVR_Dave (Apr 19, 2017)

tampa8 said:


> You all have to keep adding things never talked about or even mentioned to make your point. Who said anything about a DVR? The buyer, the seller?


Title of listing: _TiVo Roamio Pro (3TB) *DVR* tcd840300 6 tuner *dvr* w/ remote hdmi and power cable_


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## 53richart (Feb 26, 2019)

Lots of different opinions on this one. Ultimately it depends on how eBay and PayPal interpret the language. It will be interesting to learn the final outcome.


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

The original ad could be considered ambiguous, but the seller's response in post #6 that it can record without a subscription is pure bullsh*t.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

waynomo said:


> Does anybody know what the same unit goes for on eBay?


I sold mine on eBay in November... It was a TiVo Roamio Pro, stock with 3TB and LIFETIME. I sold it with the standard remote, as well as a brand new MIB TiVo Slider Remote...and threw in a TiVo Plushie.

I sold it for $399.99 + $30.00 shipping. I believe I left about $100.00 on the table... If I was patient, I think I could have gotten $499.99 instead... Especially if I unbundled the MIB TiVo Slider and sold it separately... Oh well...lesson learned...


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

tampa8 said:


> But he did not lie or even make false claims.


He claimed that no subscription is needed. That was a lie, because as an owner of a TiVo it can be presumed he knows that a subscription is needed for its intended operation; the statement was incorrect and he made it knowing that it was incorrect, with the malicious motive to defraud the buyer. If he had somehow qualified the statement, one might make the case that wasn't what he meant. But that is not the case, the statement he made was unqualified. To make his statement true would require qualifications to narrow the scope of the statement, but no such qualifications were made.

Q.E.D., seller is a mendacious liar.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

DVR_Dave said:


> Title of listing: _TiVo Roamio Pro (3TB) *DVR* tcd840300 6 tuner *dvr* w/ remote hdmi and power cable_


As well as, a TiVo Roamio by its very nature is a DVR, just like a VW Cabriolet is a car.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> As well as, a TiVo Roamio by its very nature is a DVR, just like a VW Cabriolet is a car.


I was just thinking of that analogy. Does your Crabiolet need gas? (forgetting electric vehicles)

Was this mentioned upstream?


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

tampa8 said:


> There are several sites including this one that talk about using a Tivo without a subscription.


Could you direct me to those sites? Google wasn't any help.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

waynomo said:


> I was just thinking of that analogy. *Does your Crabiolet need gas? (forgetting electric vehicles) *
> 
> Was this mentioned upstream?


Just barely at this point (it's almost 17 years old and, well, a VW  ). Maybe when it no longer can be driven, I still should sell it as a functional car, as it still can be used: the leather seats are comfortable to sit in.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

ej42137 said:


> He claimed that no subscription is needed. That was a lie, because as an owner of a TiVo it can be presumed he knows that a subscription is needed for its intended operation; the statement was incorrect and he made it knowing that it was incorrect, with the malicious motive to defraud the buyer. If he had somehow qualified the statement, one might make the case that wasn't what he meant. But that is not the case, the statement he made was unqualified. To make his statement true would require qualifications to narrow the scope of the statement, but no such qualifications were made.
> 
> Q.E.D., seller is a mendacious liar.


Yeah... At the very least, this is a lie by omission... If I personally sold this on eBay and had a history of using it like he did, and got that question posed to me, I would have disclosed that while I myself use it without a subscription, the intended use is to get a monthly or a lifetime (all-in) subscription to drive the guide population and the automated recordings. And maybe I decide to stress the fact that I am very happy using it without a subscription to try and sell my use case... But at the end of the day, I would have disclosed as much as possible to ensure that my eventual buyer was not surprised.

In fact, I would never have waited for the question to be asked. My listing would have pretty much disclosed everything they needed to know before purchasing it. I really try not to leave my listing description vague.

When I list stuff on eBay I try and disclose every little flaw (physical or functional)...even if it seems insignificant to me, I don't want the purchaser to have any reason to accuse me of fraud or of misleading them. Especially since the #1 reason for eBay complaints and returns is "Not as Described".


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

Interesting story until I noticed the OP has been a member here since 2005.
Given that, you'd think the OP knows how TiVo hardware and TiVo service works...


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## CrimsnTide (Dec 7, 2005)

Just a short update before I scarf up for Taco Tues. 
From EBay: I got a message reading: “The seller accepted your return - Hold on tight for your shipping label”.... Then nothing. 

I get another message from EBay saying seller is disputing and I can call for details. I called and they said I was approved to ship the unit back. I could do it or wait for label. (Again - this was SPEAKING to a EBay rep)
I originally told seller I would eat the cost of return shipping if he agreed to accept return. He refused - and I filed complaint with EBay AND PayPal. With Verbal confirmation from EBay (and making SURE they noted this on my account - I shipped the unit back 06/13. 
Today I get email from PayPal reading they have received my complaint/dispute and have opened a case. I’m not really sure what will happen now. 

Yes - memeber since 2005 - when zippering your TiVo (DirecTV) was the rage. It’s been awhile but have read a LOT. I forgot how much I loved TiVo. I do have a LIFETIME OTA unit now and still kinda want a CHEAP cable plan. Especially when college football comes back around. 

I will update again when something new comes about. 

Roll Tide


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## tampa8 (Jan 26, 2016)

waynomo said:


> Could you direct me to those sites? Google wasn't any help.


Google is plenty of help maybe try a different search? I don't post made up stuff. I easily found an Avsforum thread of someone asking if he could use it simply as a tuner for OTA without a subscription with answers of yes, and answers of what he can't do. Also a Quara thread of what you can do without a subscription and with a link to this site that has a thread of what you can do.

To me most importantly the person who started the thread realizes and explained well you have to ask the right question. Again the seller very likely knew what the buyer really wanted to know but in the end he did not lie in answering the question asked. He should have taken the return perhaps with the buyer paying return shipping, some would have just taken it back for good will. Ebay could make it happen.

Edit just saw the post above....


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

CrimsnTide said:


> I originally told seller I would eat the cost of return shipping if he agreed to accept return. *He refused - and I filed complaint with EBay AND PayPal.* With Verbal confirmation from EBay (and making SURE they noted this on my account - I shipped the unit back 06/13.
> Today I get email from PayPal reading they have received my complaint/dispute and have opened a case. I'm not really sure what will happen now.


:up: :clapping:


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## CrimsnTide (Dec 7, 2005)

Well, to no surprise, I was notified by PayPal that my claim was denied. The reason I received:

This decision was made because if an item is materially similar to the seller's description, we do not consider it to be significantly not as described.

We're sorry for any problems you may have experienced with the transaction(s).

My reason for posting was just a reminder to some that we should be extremely clear and concise when making transactions. I know where I screwed up. I knew it when I tried to activate the TiVo. Again, just a expensive lesson on my part and thus verifying what I already know. I was too eager to get what I wanted.

What ANGERS me most, is I do believe he knew EXACTLY what I was asking. Even by his lame a$$ response in saying he uses without a subscription. Again, I'll Bull$%&T....

AND!!!! The fact that PayPal gave the reasoning of "materially similar to the seller's description", to me it sounds as though the unit "basically looks like" the same thing he advertised, disregarding the sellers response to me that "NO SUBSCRIPTION REQUIRED". This is so vague to me that it seems to me they are basing their decision on the physical appearance of the Tivo.

We can go round and round on interpretation of my conversation. I know I screwed up and I am not looking for a lynch mob. Just disappointed someone is capable and willing to go out of their way to deceive someone for this type of transaction. Yes, I know..... Asked and answered your Honor...


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

I completely agree with your assessment of your own culpability in not asking the right questions (which was presumably the lesson you wished to impart in your original post).

HOWEVER, I still think that you are due redress in this case. I do not believe that PayPal has properly adjudicated your claim, not having applied the correct interpretation of how a TiVo operates with cable TV. If I were in your shoes, I would continue to pursue my rights, either by contesting the PayPal decision as not having properly addressed the facts of the case (if there is a venue for doing so), or by disputing the charge on my credit card.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

For anybody who thinks the seller was correct; how would you answer the question if you had been asked if the unit needed a subscription?


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

CrimsnTide said:


> Well, to no surprise, I was notified by PayPal that my claim was denied. The reason I received:
> 
> This decision was made because if an item is materially similar to the seller's description, we do not consider it to be significantly not as described.
> 
> ...


How has ebay responded?
Can you dispute the credit card charge?


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

waynomo said:


> For anybody who thinks the seller was correct; how would you answer the question if you had been asked if the unit needed a subscription?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Teeps said:


> How has ebay responded?
> Can you dispute the credit card charge?


^ This--I'd be interested in eBay's response. Perhaps/hopefully eBay will be more realistic, as knowledgeable in the field of auction sales and needing to be concerned about fraud/deception issues like this.

And I would challenge/appeal/pursue PayPal if you don't get a favorable answer from eBay (as well as pursuing any negative decision from eBay as well).

If someone sells a TV on eBay and you send a query if it is working and you are told yes, and then when you get it, it only works on UHF channels and not on VHF, that's a dishonest sale--that's ~what happened here. By its very nature, a TiVo box needs a subscription to work as it is intended (as vs. as a channel changer), if it does not already have an included subscription.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

waynomo said:


> For anybody who thinks the seller was correct; how would you answer the question if you had been asked if the unit needed a subscription?


I provided my answer in a previous post in this thread:



MikeekiM said:


> Yeah... At the very least, this is a lie by omission... *If I personally sold this on eBay and had a history of using it like he did, and got that question posed to me, I would have disclosed that while I myself use it without a subscription, the intended use is to get a monthly or a lifetime (all-in) subscription to drive the guide population and the automated recordings. * And maybe I decide to stress the fact that I am very happy using it without a subscription to try and sell my use case... But at the end of the day, I would have disclosed as much as possible to ensure that my eventual buyer was not surprised.
> 
> In fact, I would never have waited for the question to be asked. My listing would have pretty much disclosed everything they needed to know before purchasing it. I really try not to leave my listing description vague.
> 
> When I list stuff on eBay I try and disclose every little flaw (physical or functional)...even if it seems insignificant to me, I don't want the purchaser to have any reason to accuse me of fraud or of misleading them. Especially since the #1 reason for eBay complaints and returns is "Not as Described".


Ah...I just noticed that you were asking those that thinks the seller is correct to chime in...


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

What is TiVo? It's a DVR. It is not a cable box.

He sold a DVR and lied about what it needed to work as a DVR.


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## CrimsnTide (Dec 7, 2005)

BIZARRE chain of events..... I could not make this up - even if I tried. Apparently what I am about to describe, can be verified if you use either EBay, AND OR PayPal.....

So after I got notified of my dispute being declined by PayPal, I called PAYPAL. Their number is provided and I read you can "Appeal"'... So I called. Went thru the phone maze answering ALL their questions, but apparently I answered one incorrectly - and was SWITCHED over to EBAY customer service. They pulled up my dispute claim and had the information from when I talked to them LAST WEEK. I verified that I got the consent to send my package back to the seller. They verified an email was sent to me, reading that I was able to send the package BACK to the seller. HOWEVER - (this is where it fell apart).... Somewhere in TODAYS conversation, I told them I was disputing with PayPal - ALSO. The service rep asked me again and I told him PayPal had declined my dispute. It was right then the customer service person (Andy) told me my dispute claim with EBAY - was DECLINED. Just for the fact I had filed a dispute with PayPal. Apparently, it's written that you CANNOT dispute with BOTH "Company's" over the same auction or transaction. He came within a breath of saying I was trying to get reimbursed twice for this transaction. I told him I disputed with PayPal only to get my charge of the TiVo reversed. Didn't matter.... I got the email FROM Ebay while I was still on the phone with them, reading my dispute claim (EBAY) had been declined. I was so upset - at the time, you just want to file a small claims action. I even told the dude this and I said I would print out the email saying ebay authorized the RETURN!!! (Again, didn't matter....)

I know it's a lot, and I probably screwed it up when writing. I told Andy that I actually didn't file a dispute with PayPal until after I got the approval to send the Tivo back. The dispute had been decided. And. AND!!!!! I told them it's a catch because the DISPUTE is based on the auction or transaction number. WHY would they allow their users to file a dispute at both sites for the same item/auction? Although two companies, they are merged.... UGH... Makes me want to buy retail... Well, not really....
Bizarre and unreal.

I paid using a MasterCard via PayPal. Today, I called MasterCard and disputed that charge. They asked a couple questions and even wanted a tracking number of the returned package for which I provided. Meanwhile, I will wait on this "dispute"....


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

When I first read that you were disputing in both places I thought that could be a problem. They need to make that clearer


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

waynomo said:


> When I first read that you were disputing in both places I thought that could be a problem. They need to make that clearer


Indeed, it should be a simple question during the filing process.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

I do believe they are separate companies now. eBay spun them off a number of years ago.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

What a soap opera! And the saga continues . . .


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Yeah, a "charge back" is the nuclear option only to be taken when all else fails. Go through the normal dispute process first - file "not as described" first, give seller a chance to make it right, then move up the chain from there.

I sold a new-in-box Apple TV to a guy a while back and was hit by a "charge back" from Paypal 3 months after the sale. Paypal actually took the full amount of the sale out of my account immediately. Then I had to dispute the charge back. Buyer claimed item was never received. Luckily I had kept proof of delivery and got my payment back (charge back was reversed). I think buyer was just trying to scam me. He had deleted his ebay account immediately after he bought the item.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

What a Judge Judy case this would make!


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Teeps said:


> What a Judge Judy Dredd case this would make!


Fixed that for ya!


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

Do we know the seller's state of mind? Is it conceivable that he was using it w/o a subscription? If he never activated the box and used it as just a channel-changer he could be innocently incorrect.(?)


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

mdavej said:


> He had deleted his ebay account immediately after he bought the item.


Wow. I know I shouldn't be, but people continue to amaze me with their scumminess.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

mattyro7878 said:


> Do we know the seller's state of mind? Is it conceivable that he was using it w/o a subscription? If he never activated the box and used it as just a channel-changer he could be innocently incorrect.(?)


Is that possible? Yes. Is it likely? No.

And even if true, he still misrepresented the TiVo. Remember, it's a DVR. The fact that he would have used it for an alternate purpose, doesn't make his misrepresentation any more accurate.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

waynomo said:


> Is that possible? Yes. Is it likely? No.
> 
> And even if true, he still misrepresented the TiVo. Remember, it's a DVR. The fact that he would have used it for an alternate purpose, doesn't make his misrepresentation any more accurate.


It also works just great as a doorstop without a subscription.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> It also works just great as a doorstop without a subscription.


I don't know about great.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

waynomo said:


> I don't know about great.


Touché. OK, it can work.


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## CrimsnTide (Dec 7, 2005)

Just a final update - which is really un-eventful. I did file a complaint with MasterCard. As previously mentioned, gave them all the information in which they even asked for the tracking number showing I sent the TiVo back to seller. My charge as since been removed from my bill.

I did get a CONFIRMATION e-mail from PayPal reading that since I initiated a complaint with MasterCard, my initial complaint with PayPal (which has been declined) - was OFFICIALLY declined.... Huh!?!? They just wanted to make clear I was not getting anything from them....

I do feel a little bad because of not really knowing WHO is going to eat it. I can't see MasterCard going after seller, because I'm thinking he was actually paid by PayPal. In any case, I will say this is over and my main point is that every buyer should ask the correct questions. Don't be in a rush thinking the one item you found is the one you should purchase. The more you want it, the better the answers sound..... GLTA! Thanks for all the input/responses....

Roll Tide


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

CrimsnTide said:


> The more you want it, the better the answers sound.....


^ This. Glad that it sounds like it's working out ok for you, in the end and after lots of angst. Although I would have preferred that the seller get skewered. Scum.


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