# Amazon VOD pixelation on Premiere



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

My first foray into Amazon VOD on my Premiere was to rent 'Morning Glory' in HD. I was surprised to find a few dozen instances of weird mpeg pixelation. They ranged from just a few pixelated blocks to a couple of instances of half the picture inverted/pixelated/shifted for as long as 2-3 seconds. There were what looked like minor split-second frame skips too. The problems were uniform throughout the viewing.

The whole movie appeared to be fully downloaded before I started viewing. I'm not sure whether the problem was Amazon's, or something amiss with the Premiere, but it was somewhat disappointing that I couldn't watch a $5 VOD without having mpeg glitches strewn throughout it.

Anyone else experience such a problem? Are problems with Amazon VOD on the Premiere common? If so, I'll avoid it in the future.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Contact Amazon to get a credit. This is not the norm. I rarely rent movies on Amazon, but I do rent a bunch of TV shows at 1080i and 1080P24 resolutions to watch on my Premieres. Typically they will playback without any issues, although I have seen on rare occassion a glitch or two like you mentioned.


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## bsmith1051 (Nov 15, 2009)

It's probably Amazon's fault. I've downloaded a bunch of HD tv shows and some had pixelation issues -- even when I re-downloaded them.


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

I'm havin this issue as well... Tivo tech told me this am they are aware of the problem an claim the next service update will resolve the issue...

I contacted Amazon an was given a credit for my problems, decent of em to do so


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

I've definitely seen in on amazon videos I have watched, but never enough to really bother me much. I do wish they weren't protected. I'd love to download them to my computer and play through the affected scenes with mplayer to see if a different player shows the same problem. If tivo is claiming a service update will fix it, then it is probably a tivo problem, not an amazon problem.


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

It always seems once an issue is resolved, another crops up worse then the last...

You'd think these folks would adapt to their environment, writing code that does as intended without opening awhole new canno worms

Makes you wonder why we pay a monthly fee for crappy service?

Far as the video quality from Amazon, it's been fairly good with some pixelation once in awhile...

They have stopped the letterbox format which I was really not happy with during that period


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## venturebro (Jun 25, 2011)

I've had the same problem with a couple of HD videos from Amazon. The last one I purchased kept breaking up so much that I couldn't keep watching and turned it off.

I rewound the video to the areas where the pixelations occurred and noticed the image breaks up in same places every time so either it's a problem with the way the videos download to the Premiere HD or a problem with the Amazon source video itself. Not sure since I haven't re-downloaded the videos to see if it occurs again in the same spots.

Very frustrating.


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## hargreae (Feb 23, 2005)

Yes, I've been seeing this on almost every HD video I purchase from Amazon. It's very frustrating. I rented "Exporting Raymond" last week and it frequently had horrible pixelation problems. It was almost unbearable to watch by the end. I contacted Amazon about it and they gave me a credit. 

I thought maybe it had something to do with playing the file while it was still downloading, so two days I ago I rented "Enchanted" and waited until it had completely downloaded before watching it. It still had some pixellation moments (though fewer). The image even froze once while the audio kept going. I pulled up the same moment the next day and the exact same problem was still there.

I appreciate that Amazon has been considerate, but I'd prefer to not have these problems at all.


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## bsmith1051 (Nov 15, 2009)

I suspect the problem is that the DOWNLOAD is still really just a 'live'-ish stream that is being recorded. So any interruptions in the data-stream are not corrected. Most of the videos I buy on Amazon download and playback fine, but close to half have a least one noticeable glitch.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

bsmith1051 said:


> I suspect the problem is that the DOWNLOAD is still really just a 'live'-ish stream that is being recorded. So any interruptions in the data-stream are not corrected. Most of the videos I buy on Amazon download and playback fine, but close to half have a least one noticeable glitch.


I've watched two HD rentals on Amazon Instant on my Premiere and Premiere Elite and both had some level of pixelation. Is anyone else still experiencing these issues?


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

sbiller said:


> I've watched two HD rentals on Amazon Instant on my Premiere and Premiere Elite and both had some level of pixelation. Is anyone else still experiencing these issues?


Since downloading from Amazon there have been dropouts on 90% of the content


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

sbiller said:


> I've watched two HD rentals on Amazon Instant on my Premiere and Premiere Elite and both had some level of pixelation. Is anyone else still experiencing these issues?


Amazon refunded my money for the most recent video downloaded. I'm hoping the next service update resolves the issue.


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## jpcamaro70 (Nov 23, 2011)

We just watched Pirates of Carribean in HD and had no problems, just waited about 20 minutes before starting and it was fine.


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## hargreae (Feb 23, 2005)

sbiller said:


> Is anyone else still experiencing these issues?


Yep. Rented A Muppet Christmas Carol recently and it had noticeable pixelation.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Folks, this may not be a news flash, but....

I have 3 Tivos. 2 Tivo HDs, and 1 Tivo Premiere Elite

I use the Amazon service to download HD movies on all 3.

I never, ever, get pixelation on the Tivo HDs.

I always, always get pixelation on the Tivo Premiere Elite.

The Elite otherwise is performing very well, but Amazon HD downloads are absolutely horrible.

All 3 units are on the same, physical, network segment, in the same home.

All 3 otherwise have no video issues at this time.

Though I can't explain why, this seems patently clear that it's an issue with the Premiere, and not Amazon. The only thing I have not done to troubleshoot this is to download the same movie to both the Elite and one of the HDs, as I'm not willing to throw good money after bad.

This problem occurred as recently as last night. The movie Larry Crowne.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Folks, this may not be a news flash, but....
> 
> I have 3 Tivos. 2 Tivo HDs, and 1 Tivo Premiere Elite
> 
> ...


Interesting observation. My issues were on a base Premiere and on my Elite with two different movies. It does sound very suspicious that its an issue with the way the Premiere platform is interpreting the downloaded file from Amazon. I never really had pixelation issues on my TiVo HD or Series 3.


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## RangerOne (Dec 30, 2006)

I've also experienced the issues on the Premiere. I would put it one of two categories. Caetgory 1: Sometimes it is totally AWFUL to the point where the episode is unwatchable and Amazon refunds my money (this happened with one of the Dr. Who Premieres). Category 2: 2 or 3 brief moments of brief pixelization in TV episodes. 

It's interesting, I don't remember having these issues on the Series3 either.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

RangerOne said:


> I've also experienced the issues on the Premiere. I would put it one of two categories. Caetgory 1: Sometimes it is totally AWFUL to the point where the episode is unwatchable and Amazon refunds my money (this happened with one of the Dr. Who Premieres). Category 2: 2 or 3 brief moments of brief pixelization in TV episodes.
> 
> It's interesting, I don't remember having these issues on the Series3 either.


I tweeted to @tivodesign about this. My problems were in your Category 2. Quite annoying but the two HD movies were still watchable. Amazon refunded my money for the movie I complained about. Maybe you can ask TiVo about it at CES! Hopefully all of these problems will go away once TiVO implements true streaming with Amazon.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

bsmith1051 said:


> I suspect the problem is that the DOWNLOAD is still really just a 'live'-ish stream that is being recorded. So any interruptions in the data-stream are not corrected. Most of the videos I buy on Amazon download and playback fine, but close to half have a least one noticeable glitch.





sbiller said:


> Hopefully all of these problems will go away once TiVO implements true streaming with Amazon.


IMHO occasional brief pixelization or other glitches may be excusable in a streaming environment because that's more-or-less real-time. But the difference between streaming and downloading is that downloading isn't real-time, and thus should benefit from whatever handshaking and error detection and correction techniques are needed to ensure a perfect transfer. Computer file downloads are expected to be perfect these days, and movie downloads should be perfect too. I agree with bsmith1051 that they may be using the term "download" rather loosely.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Let me say it again with more emphasis.

The pixelation issues in my experience do not occur with my Tivo HDs. Matter of fact, I can't say I've ever seen any marked pixelation with either of them, and I've had them for quite a long time - pretty much since the release of the Tivo HD.

The pixelation issues pretty much ALWAYS occur with my Premiere Elite. They range from relatively bad to incredibly bad. Like ridiculously bad. On the same, GB hardwired ethernet network. On the same network segment, same subnet, etc. Absolutely nothing different about their connection to Tivo/Amazon. 

Swapping locations (moving an HD to where the Elite is and putting the elite where the HD is) makes absolutely no difference. The issues follow the Elite.

The Elite has zero pixelation issues with any live, streaming content, broadcast, etc. None. It also has no issues with content copied from one of the Tivo HDs - nor do they have issues with content copied from the Elite.

Happens when there is zero other use on the entire network (in my home, obviously). I'm on FiOS.

This to me totally discounts any possible explanation that it's due to "streaming signal loss", etc but is rather a symptom of something specific to the Elite. I'd love to hear a technical explanation as to how it's Amazon, or a "streaming issue" yet the Tivo HDs never experience this. I just don't see any possible alternative other than a Premiere Bug.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Let me say it again with more emphasis.
> 
> The pixelation issues in my experience do not occur with my Tivo HDs. Matter of fact, I can't say I've ever seen any marked pixelation with either of them, and I've had them for quite a long time - pretty much since the release of the Tivo HD.
> 
> ...


WMHJR,

I completely agree with you. The problems appear to be isolated to the Premiere platform. I don't think its just the Elite though. Any Series 4 box will exhibit the poor video decoding quality.

My theory is the videos have been encoded to optimize the playback on the Series 3 platform and there is some sort of incompatibility with the decoding being done on the newer platform.

~Sam


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## rparadis99 (Nov 24, 2007)

> This problem occurred as recently as last night. The movie Larry Crowne.


For what it is worth, I rented Larry Crowne HD via Amazon on a TiVo Premiere (not an Elite) on New Years Eve and agree that the quality was awful.

Numerous pixelation issues and the audio dropped in/out. I would say, on average, it happened every minute or two.

In my experience, it has been the HD encoded titles on Amazon and not the SD ones that give my TiVo Premiere problems.

I rent a number of their "daily deals" in SD to watch on my Premiere. Like others have said, I've never experienced a single problem with movies in SD.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Is there anyone out there with a Premiere AND an HD box who find a different result? Or asked another way, how about those with Premiere and HD units who find similar results? Hmmm.... I think i'm going to post a poll to see if we can get more objective results.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

I just contacted Tivo support, who seemed to have "never seen or heard of this issue before" (Deja Vu with Tivo - seems like every time there's an issue they've never heard of it from anybody else). Got a case number and a (very weak) promise that it would be escalated to level 2 technicians and would be resolved within 7-14 days. I'm to call back if it's not fixed. Same old response. Oh well.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> I just contacted Tivo support, who seemed to have "never seen or heard of this issue before" (Deja Vu with Tivo - seems like every time there's an issue they've never heard of it from anybody else). Got a case number and a (very weak) promise that it would be escalated to level 2 technicians and would be resolved within 7-14 days. I'm to call back if it's not fixed. Same old response. Oh well.


I also posted on the TiVo Forums but its unclear whether TiVO employees even read those forums.

http://forums.tivo.com/pe/action/forums/displaythread?rootPostID=10511852


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## rparadis99 (Nov 24, 2007)

In fairness to Amazon and TiVo, I reported the problem to Amazon. It seems like their problem to me and I explained that they might have a reproducible test case. Amazon was kind enough to offer a full refund of the purchase price in addition to stating that they will look into the problem.

In this case, Amazon encoded HD content appears to be compatible with Series 3 but not Series 4 TiVos. Your test is by no means scientific but I've seen significant problems with two HD titles (Date Night and Larry Crowne) on my TiVo Premiere in the last year that I have rented from Amazon. I just checked and I've rented 5 HD titles in that timeframe (the other 3 had little or no issues). I've never noticed any of these types of issues with SD titles.

It might behoove Amazon to see if they can reproduce and fix the issue on their end. Like you, I doubt TiVo will do much to resolve the issue.

One other side note, the TiVo devices are very picky about how external videos are encoded. When I download my own home videos to the device, I can get similar problems to occur during playback depending on how I encode the video.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

I'm guessing that the release of new software to the Premiere's this quarter (i.e., the major upgrade) will correct this problem because Amazon will become a streaming-only service like Hulu Plus.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

rparadis99 said:


> It seems like their problem to me and I explained that they might have a reproducible test case.
> 
> Your test is by no means scientific
> 
> One other side note, the TiVo devices are very picky about how external videos are encoded. When I download my own home videos to the device, I can get similar problems to occur during playback depending on how I encode the video.


I guess I'm confused by the above. I'm not sure how we can say it seems like Amazons problem when:

1) It doesn't seem to happen on ANY other devices, including non-Tivo devices I have.

2) You yourself mention that even your own home videos can get similar problems.

This to me also points to the Premiere being at root cause.

I also don't know what you would consider scientific. There are a bunch of other things, but removing every possible variable is in fact scientific. There is only one further thing I could possibly have done. Download the exact same content to both one of the HDs and the Elite at the same approximate time and validate that (as usual) the Elite has the issue and the HD does not.

Could you elaborate on exactly why you feel this is an Amazon issue, and what exactly you would do for a better test? I have eliminated network subnets, physical network segment, CAT5E cables, RG6 patch cables, switch, switch ports, RG6 cable runs, HDMI handshake, HDMI cables, and displays from the equation. Fact. As a byproduct, I have also eliminated SNR and signal strength as the issue (because of the previous changes). Ever heard of Occams Razor?


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

sbiller said:


> I'm guessing that the release of new software to the Premiere's this quarter (i.e., the major upgrade) will correct this problem because Amazon will become a streaming-only service like Hulu Plus.


I sure hope not. Frankly, one of the big advantages of Amazon HD for me previously with my HDs was that I didn't have to worry about the buffering and other issues associated for example with Netflix streaming. I stopped using it because it was so hit or miss and just wasn't worth the trouble. Amazon HD downloads have been rock solid for me with the HDs. Netflix never was. Because of this I've really never played with Hulu.


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## rparadis99 (Nov 24, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> Could you elaborate on exactly why you feel this is an Amazon issue, and what exactly you would do for a better test?


I'm eliminating all other wild possibilities (as Occam's Razor would suggest).

Fact: The video is encoded, encrypted and generated by Amazon for download to a TiVo. Amazon collects all money in this transaction.

There are two possible solutions to the problem:

Solution #1: Amazon re-encodes the video so it is compatible with TiVo Series 4 devices (which have different software than the Series 3). This is a software change on their system that must undergo testing to make sure the video is compatible across all devices (TiVo and other) under which the video might get distributed.

Solution #2: TiVo upgrades their software so that it can playback the video that Amazon is passing it. Obviously, the Series 3 plays it fine and I am betting that other devices that support Amazon Video work too (e.g. smart TVs).

The reality is that one entity (Amazon) collects the $4.99 fee for the HD rental in this case. It is in their best interest to fix that problem. TiVo provides the software interface and the playback hardware but not the actual video.

TiVo does have some motivation to fix the problem but (based on my experience transferring home movies to the TiVo) I believe the problem could ALSO be fixed on Amazon's end.

As a general rule, if you can fix problems on the server side, it is preferable to fixing it on the 1000s of clients.


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## EldRick (Jan 3, 2012)

So far three movies from Amazon, and all have had patches where pixelation breaks up the images on my PXL, and not while streaming. 

The way to get these fixed is to call Amazon and request refunds - that will focus their attention on the issue if they have to give a lot of refunds and promotional credits...


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

rparadis99 said:


> I'm eliminating all other wild possibilities (as Occam's Razor would suggest).
> 
> Fact: The video is encoded, encrypted and generated by Amazon for download to a TiVo. Amazon collects all money in this transaction.
> 
> ...


Well, frankly, I completely disagree with you (with the exception of fixing issues on the server side USUALLY. That USUALLY only extends to if you're forced to make non-standard proprietary changes which can then lead to issues elsewhere or in the future. I believe that to be the case here. Making a change to encoding to accomodate JUST the Premiere could end up having a negative effect on other devices, which seem to work perfectly at this point - plus why should Amazon fund Tivo software quality issues?). Amazon provides this content to all kinds of devices - and to the best of my knowledge this issue exists only on the Tivo Premiere. I have not experienced this issue with Tivo HDs or other devices which can access the exact same content. There is no evidence at this point provided by or even mentioned by anyone that the issue exists for any other device. As a technology professional with considerable experience in doing RCAs, etc on extremely large (including global) enterprise systems, I would focus in this case on the device. It may well be an issue where Amazon would make a change, but those changes SHOULD BE DRIVEN BY TIVO, AS IT IS THEIR DEVICE WHICH SEEMS TO HAVE THE UNIQUE PROBLEM WITH CONTENT WHICH IS COMPATIBLE WITH VIRTUALLY EVERY OTHER KNOWN DEVICE. It should NOT be driven by Tivo customers to Amazon.

The reality is that Tivo collects both an up front sales revenue for the device purchase, and THEN a MONTHLY service fee for continuing to use the device. So, your facts are in fact not facts. Tivo collects a monthly service fee which MUST be included in the conversation. Beyond that, let's ask it another way....

If you bought a new car that ended up not being able to consume either gasoline or diesel without those products being modified, would you then expect each energy company to modify their product to fit the specification created by the auto manufacturer? Or, would you FIRST insure that the auto manufacturer researched to discover the problem, document it, and work with providers to resolve it? You may think this is a ridiculous analogy, but from a logic perspective, it is actually quite relevant.

The bottom line here is that until such time as there is any evidence that this functionality is problematic with other devices, and given the fact that we are all paying Tivo, it is IMHO clearly a Tivo responsibility to deal with the issues. It is their responsibility to deal with Amazon. Frankly, in terms of total revenue, the amount of revenue from Tivo customers using Premieres to get downloaded HD content is probably not even a bug on the windshield of their offerings, and there is little/no motivation for them. OTOH, the Premiere is the majority share of new equipment revenue for Tivo, they have increased service fees to account for "increased functionality" and own the overall responsibility to support their devices - which they cleary advertise and market can use such online HD content.

I am not bashing Tivo here. However, I do get so very tired of Tivo issues getting blamed on other factors, and frankly claiming that the troubleshooting that I did was "hardly scientific" falls into the "let's just excuse Tivo" category. No insult intended here and please don't apply any anger to my words. I'm just trying to be very clear and precise.


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## rparadis99 (Nov 24, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> I am not bashing Tivo here. However, I do get so very tired of Tivo issues getting blamed on other factors, and frankly claiming that the troubleshooting that I did was "hardly scientific" falls into the "let's just excuse Tivo" category. No insult intended here and please don't apply any anger to my words. I'm just trying to be very clear and precise.


No offense taken. I guess we will agree to disagree. As I stated, Amazon was very fair (full refund) and said they would look into the problem. TiVo would be wise to do the same.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Amazon certainly appears to be fair in their policy, but that doesn't fix the problem. It only refunds the purchase price for the HD content from them. It does nothing to affect the fact that we're paying Tivo a monthly fee (which they increased for the Premiere). I have zero faith that the problem will be resolved by Amazon, as it appears to me that they are properly encoding the content (based on the fact that I have not found any other device reported to have consistent issues with their content other than the Tivo Premiere). It's more cost effective for them to just refund the fees for that very small percentage of customers using a Premiere, broken down into a yet even smaller group that actually take the time to request a refund.

Problem is that based on other experiences, I seriously doubt Tivo will dedicate any real measurable effort toward this - especially if people simply accept the performance and just ask Amazon for their money back. No pressure - no action. With limited resources they'll devote dev time to other issues/projects. JMHO as somebody with a great deal of experience in development, running development and running very large technology shops. Product management and marketing drive prioritization of work breakdown structure.


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## whitej125 (Oct 9, 2005)

I just jumped back on the Tivo bandwagon with the Tivo premiere. Prior to this, I had "cut the cord" and used a Roku player for Netflix and Amazon VOD. So naturally I wanted to keep that content coming.

I too am noticing the pixelation issues on both Amazon VOD *and* Netflix. Neither of which occurred on Roku. 

The software engineer in me thinks this is actually a Tivo issue, not a content provider issue. Amazon, for one, does not have one version of a video for the Tivo 3 and another version for the Tivo 4 (premiere). However, there appears to be a difference in how these two systems decode the content.

Now... I have not seen a teardown of either the Tivo 3 or Tivo 4. But I'd suspect something is different in the video decoding department. Either they switched to a different decoder hardware/chipset or removed it altogether in favor of software decoding. Both could be ways to lower the cost of the unit.

I'm hoping this is a software issue so that there is a possibility of a fix. But seeing as this thread has been around for 6 months, I fear it might not be.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

For Amazon, TiVo uses a different encoding of the video than most (possibly all) other devices. So the fact that a video is clean on Roku but not TiVo doesn't necessarily mean that TiVo is at fault.


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## whitej125 (Oct 9, 2005)

Roku vs. Tivo, I agree... but Tivo 3 vs. Tivo 4?


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

I've downloaded many vids from Amazon an whenever there's a dropout from the DL Amaszn has made it right by either offering to DDL again or refund the fee of that video


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## whitej125 (Oct 9, 2005)

Same here, Amazon gave me credit for the video which is great! But, that's not solving the problem here, that's solving the symptom. I don't want the money back, I want to watch the movie for which I paid.

The reason I bought the Tivo Premiere was precisely because it combined the content I was used to getting from Roku with cable. Had I known Netflix and Amazon were going to work like crap, I would have stuck with the cable company DVR + Roku separately.


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## digitalfirefly (Apr 15, 2005)

I've been experiencing pixelation on my Tivo Premiere and Elite. I've rented about 6 or 7 HD movies from Amazon through the Tivo recently. Sometimes it's better than others, but the last movie I rented the pixelation was pretty frequent. 

I've tried downloading the movies at off peak hours (after midnight, early AM) to ensure my modem us getting enough bandwidth. I actually work for a small cable company and I can see that my modem is getting it's full speed (20meg). I'm running wired from my Tivo to my router. I've been hard wired for about 6 months. I used to think the pixelation was because I was wireless, but I'm still having it since running a wire.

I've downloaded movies on my Xbox 360 and PS3 and had no issues at all. I can stream HD content on Netflix and Hulu with no issue at all. Like someone said, it seems like Amazon is just streaming it, and the Tivo is recording it. It's not actually downloading a file, so there's no error correction. If there's any kind of packet loss, the video isn't being retransmitted.

My next step is to try and stream a movie on my Roku to see if that's any better than downloading it to my Tivo.


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## Thunderclap (Nov 28, 2005)

This is a little disheartening to hear, since I was considering upgrading to Premiere from HD soon. May have to wait a little now.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

If you use Amazon HD movies, then I would absolutely not consider a Premiere at this time. I have effectively a zero percent success rate with Amazon HD downloads on my Premiere Elite, and a 100% success rate on either of my HDs. It is absolutely, totally, factually clear that the only variable in my particular case is the Premiere. I have now even downloaded Amazon HD content on my Elite, had massive pixelation, then bought and downloaded the same content on an HD, having zero issues. That finishes up the troubleshooting steps I've used before, pretty much proving that the fly in the ointment here is the Premiere.


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## Thunderclap (Nov 28, 2005)

Is there a way to report this bug to Tivo?

Also... does this pixelation only affect HD content or SD content as well?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Mail or twitter to Margret @ tivo seems to be our most effective channel right now.

http://twitter.com/tivodesign


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Thunderclap said:


> Is there a way to report this bug to Tivo?
> 
> Also... does this pixelation only affect HD content or SD content as well?


The bug has been reported. I personally believe it's been reported months ago. The fact that tech support denies knowing about it doesn't mean that there aren't tickets open. That's frankly just the performance I've come to expect from Tivo tech support. Deny, deny, deny. Some issues get fixed - others never do. I'm very disappointed as I had been quite happy with other aspects of the Elite until last week. My bubble has been decisively burst.

As for SD content, many have reported that SD has been OK and issues were really focused on HD but I can't speak for that, as I would only download HD content if I'm paying for it.


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## Thunderclap (Nov 28, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> As for SD content, many have reported that SD has been OK and issues were really focused on HD but I can't speak for that, as I would only download HD content if I'm paying for it.


I'd much rather have HD content, but if SD is a temporary workaround I can live with it. As long as its not a a year long temporary workaround.


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## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

Hi all,

We are actively investigating this issue. If you experience pixelation on an Amazon Video Download, please do the following:

1. Take a picture and note the time into the movie/show where you see the pixelation. Enter 9-1-1-CLEAR on your remote control.
2. Email the picture, the date/time and location (time) of the problem in the video, the title of the movie/show, and your TiVo Service Number to me ([email protected]).

Thank you!
--Margret


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Thank you Margret! I will do this. I'm curious - this issue cannot be replicated by Tivo? That would seem very odd considering the apparent high frequency of the issue being reported. Strange.


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## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

wmhjr said:


> Thank you Margret! I will do this. I'm curious - this issue cannot be replicated by Tivo? That would seem very odd considering the apparent high frequency of the issue being reported. Strange.


We are doing testing internally as well, but the more data the better. Home setups are very different from lab setups.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> If you use Amazon HD movies, then I would absolutely not consider a Premiere at this time. I have effectively a zero percent success rate with Amazon HD downloads on my Premiere Elite, and a 100% success rate on either of my HDs. It is absolutely, totally, factually clear that the only variable in my particular case is the Premiere. I have now even downloaded Amazon HD content on my Elite, had massive pixelation, then bought and downloaded the same content on an HD, having zero issues. That finishes up the troubleshooting steps I've used before, pretty much proving that the fly in the ointment here is the Premiere.


I have a 100% success rate with the Premiere. But I've also been downloading TV shows not movies.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

I emailed Margret a more detailed trouble report and performed the 9-1-1-Clear and transferred my logs (via connect) but I thought I would post some pictures in case thread watchers were interested.

I purchased and downloaded the new release movie The Ides of March [HD] 2011 for $4.99 last night. The pixelation issues did not begin until 30m into the film. There were a number of times during the remaining 1h 10m of the movie where pixelation occurred. Here are some images I captured.














































The problem is noticeable during playback every time so it appears to be an *encoding *or *decoding *issue. It doesn't matter what the Premiere box is doing at the time so it doesn't appear to be a processor loading issue.

The problem is also noticeable during fast forward and rewind but its easy to miss.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> I have a 100% success rate with the Premiere. But I've also been downloading TV shows not movies.


That's an interesting comment. Perhaps I'll try an HD TV show and see if it's different. I'm completely convinced that there is a systemic issue with Amazon HD movies, and have believed from the beginning it's an encoding/decoding issue on the part of the Premiere. I wonder if there is some sort of difference in encoding for TV shows. I wouldn't expect that, but perhaps there is some sort of rights management there that does not exist in TV shows but does in movies?


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

smbaker said:


> My first foray into Amazon VOD on my Premiere was to rent 'Morning Glory' in HD. I was surprised to find a few dozen instances of weird mpeg pixelation. They ranged from just a few pixelated blocks to a couple of instances of half the picture inverted/pixelated/shifted for as long as 2-3 seconds. There were what looked like minor split-second frame skips too. The problems were uniform throughout the viewing.
> 
> The whole movie appeared to be fully downloaded before I started viewing. I'm not sure whether the problem was Amazon's, or something amiss with the Premiere, but it was somewhat disappointing that I couldn't watch a $5 VOD without having mpeg glitches strewn throughout it.
> 
> Anyone else experience such a problem? Are problems with Amazon VOD on the Premiere common? If so, I'll avoid it in the future.


I stopped viewing a downloaded movie til afterwards, an noticed much less pic dropout...

Still, I've called Amazon when there were issues with mvies that were unviewavke an rgwt were very hekpful to refund the amount paid for that movie... Yet offwewed no esplaination as to why this problem is happening


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dr_Diablo said:


> I stopped viewing a downloaded movie til afterwards, an noticed much less pic dropout...
> 
> Still, I've called Amazon when there were issues with mvies that were unviewavke an rgwt were very hekpful to refund the amount paid for that movie... Yet offwewed no esplaination as to why this problem is happening


He also said he believes the movie was fully downloaded before watching it. I have never ever even attempted to view a HD movie until at least hours - if not days - after it downloaded. Yet on my Premiere, every solitary, single movie had heavy pixelation. I think there are sufficient reports here to say with emphasis and authority that this issue is not related to network interface utilization during playback. Or frankly, that it's not related to cpu or memory utilization during playback either.

What we do not yet know is if we would all experience pixelation in the same titles at the same times during playback, indicating where potentially the encoding/decoding issues me be more visible - or if the pixelation occurs at more random times following playback (meaning random from Premiere to Premiere - NOT random on an individual Premiere. We've already proven that where there is pixelation, if you pause, rewind, play over, etc - the pixelation, dropout, etc, will ALWAYS occur again and again at the same spots).


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> He also said he believes the movie was fully downloaded before watching it. I have never ever even attempted to view a HD movie until at least hours - if not days - after it downloaded. Yet on my Premiere, every solitary, single movie had heavy pixelation. I think there are sufficient reports here to say with emphasis and authority that this issue is not related to network interface utilization during playback. Or frankly, that it's not related to cpu or memory utilization during playback either.
> 
> What we do not yet know is if we would all experience pixelation in the same titles at the same times during playback, indicating where potentially the encoding/decoding issues me be more visible - or if the pixelation occurs at more random times following playback (meaning random from Premiere to Premiere - NOT random on an individual Premiere. We've already proven that where there is pixelation, if you pause, rewind, play over, etc - the pixelation, dropout, etc, will ALWAYS occur again and again at the same spots).


As you stated, my movie was fully downloaded before playback on my Elite. The problem also occurred on previous HD movie titles on my bedroom standard Premiere. I'm near certain the network performance on the problem since I suspect that the file downloaded from Amazon is checked for integrity.

As you stated, CPU loading at the time of playback has zero impact on the problem. I'm very surprised TiVo has not been able to re-create this problem in their labs. I'm guessing they haven't purchased too many HD movies from Amazon!

With all of that said, the pixelation was significant but did not make the movie unwatchable. I would surmise that there are many Premiere owners who have rented HD movie titles from Amazon and haven't bothered to complain about the pixelation.

I've decided to not complain to Amazon about my recent experience. I'm hoping Margret can report back to us that a fix to this problem has been identified.


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

I'm very satisfied with the sustomer reps at Amazon when resovlingmy VOD issues


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## bitzerjdb (Apr 29, 2008)

wmhjr said:


> If you use Amazon HD movies, then I would absolutely not consider a Premiere at this time. I have effectively a zero percent success rate with Amazon HD downloads on my Premiere Elite, and a 100% success rate on either of my HDs. It is absolutely, totally, factually clear that the only variable in my particular case is the Premiere. I have now even downloaded Amazon HD content on my Elite, had massive pixelation, then bought and downloaded the same content on an HD, having zero issues. That finishes up the troubleshooting steps I've used before, pretty much proving that the fly in the ointment here is the Premiere.


Amazon downloads directly to the TV or to the Series 3 Tivos are fine...Downloading to my Elite results in a unwatchable mess. Both Tivos are connected to the same network switch...I swapped the cables and ports on the switch...same result. Seems to support something is funky with the Elite.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dr_Diablo said:


> I'm very satisfied with the sustomer reps at Amazon when resovlingmy VOD issues


I don't want to have to engage Amazon to deal with problems. I want the problem fixed. It does zero good to get money refunded if your intent and purpose is to watch the content. Frankly, IMHO Tivo should be crediting back all service fees for Premieres until such time as they release a reasonably good quality product. While I was very excited upon initial receipt of my Premiere Elite, I have come to realize that it is perhaps the worst quality Tivo device I've gotten yet. Initially it was just Amazon HD downloads. Now it's spontaneous reboots, sluggish behavior, etc. It has effectively become worthless to me and has been relegated to a pretty much unused room at this point. I'm back to using my HDs as primary devices.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> I don't want to have to engage Amazon to deal with problems. I want the problem fixed. It does zero good to get money refunded if your intent and purpose is to watch the content. Frankly, IMHO Tivo should be crediting back all service fees for Premieres until such time as they release a reasonably good quality product. While I was very excited upon initial receipt of my Premiere Elite, I have come to realize that it is perhaps the worst quality Tivo device I've gotten yet. Initially it was just Amazon HD downloads. Now it's spontaneous reboots, sluggish behavior, etc. It has effectively become worthless to me and has been relegated to a pretty much unused room at this point. I'm back to using my HDs as primary devices.


All of us, including TiVo, want the Amazon problem fixed. We've already had direct TiVo involvement acknowledging that they are looking into the problem and soliciting input from TCF to provide details and Premiere logs on the problems.

I would be interested in seeing a video of the sluggish behavior that your experiencing. 20.2 is still much faster than 14.9 on both of my boxes. I'm guessing that it is something particular to the way you and a few others are using the software.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

sbiller said:


> All of us, including TiVo, want the Amazon problem fixed. We've already had direct TiVo involvement acknowledging that they are looking into the problem and soliciting input from TCF to provide details and Premiere logs on the problems.
> 
> I would be interested in seeing a video of the sluggish behavior that your experiencing. 20.2 is still much faster than 14.9 on both of my boxes. I'm guessing that it is something particular to the way you and a few others are using the software.


At this point I've stopped using the Elite for anything other than as extra tuners in a room I don't use much, and have gone back to my HDs as primary. This is not because of the Amazon issue, but because the Elite has become sluggish and spontaneously reboots with no warning or predictability. It happens in the middle of recordings, when nothing is recording but things are playing back, etc. I am not using the software in any possible unique way period. I go to tivo central, now playing, scroll through recorded (generally just normal network like ABC, CBS, etc) content, select it and start playback. Period. Nothing whatsoever more. I can't imagine how that would be "unique" or "different" from other uses. I use it in its most basic fundamental fashion. Frankly, that's one of my biggest complaints about Tivo. I think there is way too much concentration on "gadgets" and "extra features" at the expense of quality and dependability for the "core fundamental" functions. After talking to Tivo support this past week and then again tonight, I no longer have the patience to deal with the Elite. I'm really disappointed because it really seemed like such a high quality product when I first got it. I am severely concerned that with no software or hardware changes, the behavior of the unit just randomly changes. And that Tivo did not prioritize delivery of 20.2 to customers who have legitimate recorded ticket numbers that they "claim" will be resolved by 20.2.

Bottom line here is that I've really stopped using the Elite for the most part now. It's a $500 doorstop that every once in a while records something that my HDs do not. I have a bunch of content on it that I'm gradually moving onto the HDs and watching. Sad night. I'm going to just try to not look at the Elite for a while, and wait for 20.2 to get deployed to it (if that ever happens) and see if it's any better than 14.9.2.2, and even if it IS, keep my fingers crossed that the same delayed issues don't start popping up down the road. Bottom line is that Tivo has given me absolutely not a single solitary reason to be optimistic. The tech at Tivo tonight actually told me that I should expect this, because "it took 2 years to get the bugs out of the Series 3, and even after that we just released a fix for another issue with the Series 3". No kidding. Like Tivo should be proud that it took 2 years for the S3? Really? I did not solicit this. It was a almost word for word comment by the Tivo support person. Blew my mind.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> At this point I've stopped using the Elite for anything other than as extra tuners in a room I don't use much, and have gone back to my HDs as primary. This is not because of the Amazon issue, but because the Elite has become sluggish and spontaneously reboots with no warning or predictability. It happens in the middle of recordings, when nothing is recording but things are playing back, etc. I am not using the software in any possible unique way period. I go to tivo central, now playing, scroll through recorded (generally just normal network like ABC, CBS, etc) content, select it and start playback. Period. Nothing whatsoever more. I can't imagine how that would be "unique" or "different" from other uses. I use it in its most basic fundamental fashion. Frankly, that's one of my biggest complaints about Tivo. I think there is way too much concentration on "gadgets" and "extra features" at the expense of quality and dependability for the "core fundamental" functions. After talking to Tivo support this past week and then again tonight, I no longer have the patience to deal with the Elite. I'm really disappointed because it really seemed like such a high quality product when I first got it. I am severely concerned that with no software or hardware changes, the behavior of the unit just randomly changes. And that Tivo did not prioritize delivery of 20.2 to customers who have legitimate recorded ticket numbers that they "claim" will be resolved by 20.2.
> 
> Bottom line here is that I've really stopped using the Elite for the most part now. It's a $500 doorstop that every once in a while records something that my HDs do not. I have a bunch of content on it that I'm gradually moving onto the HDs and watching. Sad night. I'm going to just try to not look at the Elite for a while, and wait for 20.2 to get deployed to it (if that ever happens) and see if it's any better than 14.9.2.2, and even if it IS, keep my fingers crossed that the same delayed issues don't start popping up down the road. Bottom line is that Tivo has given me absolutely not a single solitary reason to be optimistic. The tech at Tivo tonight actually told me that I should expect this, because "it took 2 years to get the bugs out of the Series 3, and even after that we just released a fix for another issue with the Series 3". No kidding. Like Tivo should be proud that it took 2 years for the S3? Really? I did not solicit this. It was a almost word for word comment by the Tivo support person. Blew my mind.


I didn't realize you were still on 14.9.2.2 on your Elite. I'm optimistic that it will no longer be a doorstop once you get 20.2 on it. Just out of curiosity why didn't you provide your TSN to @tivodesign to get on the priority list earlier? If I have one complaint it would be that the priority list isn't easily accessible by users like it was in the past. I'm guessing that they will go back to a web-based sign-up form for priority updates like what existing many years ago.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

sbiller said:


> I didn't realize you were still on 14.9.2.2 on your Elite. I'm optimistic that it will no longer be a doorstop once you get 20.2 on it. Just out of curiosity why didn't you provide your TSN to @tivodesign to get on the priority list earlier? If I have one complaint it would be that the priority list isn't easily accessible by users like it was in the past. I'm guessing that they will go back to a web-based sign-up form for priority updates like what existing many years ago.


To be honest, the reason I didn't submit my TSN was because AT THE TIME my Elite was (other than the Amazon issue) performing quite well, and I wanted to see how others faired with the new version of SW rather than breaking mine. It was only 10 days ago that I began to have real issues and since then, the issues have increased significantly. It really concerns me that with no changes, I and others have experienced random increases in symptoms of defects after weeks or months of at least acceptable performance. As somebody with extensive product design and engineering background, I am extremely troubled by this.

20.2 may well help (whenever I get it) but I have to say, the responses I've gotten from Tivo and some of the things they've told me combined with my most recent experiences have eliminated any optimism that Tivo has improved. 14.9.2.2 was performing pretty well for me. Then it wasn't. Based on this, there is absolutely no reason to believe that 20.2 will be any different.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> To be honest, the reason I didn't submit my TSN was because AT THE TIME my Elite was (other than the Amazon issue) performing quite well, and I wanted to see how others faired with the new version of SW rather than breaking mine. It was only 10 days ago that I began to have real issues and since then, the issues have increased significantly. It really concerns me that with no changes, I and others have experienced random increases in symptoms of defects after weeks or months of at least acceptable performance. As somebody with extensive product design and engineering background, I am extremely troubled by this.
> 
> 20.2 may well help (whenever I get it) but I have to say, the responses I've gotten from Tivo and some of the things they've told me combined with my most recent experiences have eliminated any optimism that Tivo has improved. 14.9.2.2 was performing pretty well for me. Then it wasn't. Based on this, there is absolutely no reason to believe that 20.2 will be any different.


I'm also an engineer with fairly extensive product design and engineering experience (20+ years). We know that 20.2 was a major re-write of the code so there will be bugs but I think the response has been very good and the release is pretty solid. I'm surprised that tech support couldn't figure out a way to authorize you for 20.2.

I'm really not sure TiVo was even aware of the Amazon VOD problems until recently since most people wouldn't even report such a problem directly to technical support. I tweeted to Margret directly and resurrected this thread after experiencing the problem multiple times.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

sbiller said:


> I'm also an engineer with fairly extensive product design and engineering experience (20+ years). We know that 20.2 was a major re-write of the code so there will be bugs but I think the response has been very good and the release is pretty solid. I'm surprised that tech support couldn't figure out a way to authorize you for 20.2.


Like I said in other posts, I've found Tivo tech support to be pretty much of no value whatsoever. For me, they are effectively just a way to insure that defects are communicated to Tivo - though I never have high hopes of defect remediation in any kind of realistic time frame. I call them to report issues so that Tivo cannot say that they didn't know of them. Tivo support has never in all the years I've been a customer solved a single problem for me. In all fairness, I tend to solve my own issues, and when I can't, it's typically a "systemic" issue which requires SW/HW changes. That's clearly not the case for everyone.

I was surprised at a number of things on my recent 2 calls. First, that the techs (especially the one tonight) were so blatant about saying that 14.9.2.2 was a failure and that they were "standing behind 20.2" (creating the obvious question - as opposed to "not" standing behind 14.9.2.2?). I was also surprised that the techs basically knew nothing, had no suggestions, and felt that even though perhaps the 20.2 software might relieve some symptoms, I should send the box back and have it replaced at a cost of $49.

Beyond that, I'm just surprised that Tivo can't seem to get software development right, and that pretty much every release seems to have critical SW defects. Let's face it, for the most part these are closed systems. Yes, there are differences in some of the management systems (such as SARA) being used by cablecos, but beyond that Tivo has an incredible amount of control over the configuration of these devices, and yet we continue to see critical software component failures. I'm very thankful that Margret is here but honestly, I continue to be astounded by the apparent quality issues. The competition is catching up in many ways (and in some ways has surpassed Tivo frankly) and as I've said elsewhere, they are effectively reducing their service fees for DVR service in many cases while Tivo increased theirs by 25%. Don't get me wrong. I in no way expect zero defects. I've never been involved in a release that didn't have defects. But CRITICAL defects which affect the core functionality of the unit? Nope. Good shops just don't do that. There is no CMM level that allows for the production release of defective critical core components. That's a deal breaker.


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

Problem is that Tivo is the only game in town thus we are stuck with their inability to have a functional device that preforms as advertised


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Like I said in other posts, I've found Tivo tech support to be pretty much of no value whatsoever. For me, they are effectively just a way to insure that defects are communicated to Tivo - though I never have high hopes of defect remediation in any kind of realistic time frame. I call them to report issues so that Tivo cannot say that they didn't know of them. Tivo support has never in all the years I've been a customer solved a single problem for me. In all fairness, I tend to solve my own issues, and when I can't, it's typically a "systemic" issue which requires SW/HW changes. That's clearly not the case for everyone.
> 
> I was surprised at a number of things on my recent 2 calls. First, that the techs (especially the one tonight) were so blatant about saying that 14.9.2.2 was a failure and that they were "standing behind 20.2" (creating the obvious question - as opposed to "not" standing behind 14.9.2.2?). I was also surprised that the techs basically knew nothing, had no suggestions, and felt that even though perhaps the 20.2 software might relieve some symptoms, I should send the box back and have it replaced at a cost of $49.
> 
> Beyond that, I'm just surprised that Tivo can't seem to get software development right, and that pretty much every release seems to have critical SW defects. Let's face it, for the most part these are closed systems. Yes, there are differences in some of the management systems (such as SARA) being used by cablecos, but beyond that Tivo has an incredible amount of control over the configuration of these devices, and yet we continue to see critical software component failures. I'm very thankful that Margret is here but honestly, I continue to be astounded by the apparent quality issues. The competition is catching up in many ways (and in some ways has surpassed Tivo frankly) and as I've said elsewhere, they are effectively reducing their service fees for DVR service in many cases while Tivo increased theirs by 25%. Don't get me wrong. I in no way expect zero defects. I've never been involved in a release that didn't have defects. But CRITICAL defects which affect the core functionality of the unit? Nope. Good shops just don't do that. There is no CMM level that allows for the production release of defective critical core components. That's a deal breaker.


I understand your frustration. There is no doubt that TiVo has had their software quality issues starting with the release of the Premiere two years ago. I'm guessing and speculating that at some point they realized that patching and improving the 14.x code was impossible and the software required a complete re-write from the ground up. I believe 20.2 is the result of that massive effort where they now have a unified code base for all Series 4 based software. If you have a chance go peak at the Virgin Media forums. Overall you'll find a very active user community that is extremely satisfied with the product which far exceeds their competition. Those users in the UK are talking more about advanced features that they want added to the box instead of problems like spontaneous reboots and sluggish behavior. With 20.2 we now have a code base that is unified with the VMED software and we are starting to see the benefits of the completely re-architected software.


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## snagitseven (Jul 8, 2009)

I've had my Premier for over a year and Amazon movies were downloading initially in HD just fine. However, I believe since Amazon went to VOD streaming vs. downloading since about 6 months, 100% of my movies are pixelated as described by others (I never watch a movie until fully downloaded). Some are worse than others, but all now have issues from mildly annoying to unwatchable with pixelating, tearing, freezing and frequent audio dropouts.
Tivo and Amazon need to get their heads together and get this fixed. Enough is enough. Margaret, are they really, really working on this?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Has anyone actually documented a case of the problem as Margret requested with program details and a snapshot?

Why not post info and snapshots here? Maybe we can see whether the problem is repeatable?


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

I'm puttin my money on the freakin cable companies for forkin up the signal as it passes through the Tivo


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

nrc said:


> Has anyone actually documented a case of the problem as Margret requested with program details and a snapshot?
> 
> Why not post info and snapshots here? Maybe we can see whether the problem is repeatable?


I did both (see my post above with pictures) and Margret acknowledged my email.

I believe they are working on a solution to the problem. I would be very surprised if they don't already know what the issue is. I'm betting on some sort of decoding issue with the encoding that was optimized for the Series 3 platform. The question is how easy it will be to fix because different files for the Series 3 and Series 4 is probably not a viable option.

I think most of the thread readers just want to ***** & moan and don't really want to help Tivo solve the problem.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

snagitseven said:


> However, I believe since Amazon went to VOD streaming vs. downloading since about 6 months, 100% of my movies are pixelated as described by others (I never watch a movie until fully downloaded). Some are worse than others, but all now have issues from mildly annoying to unwatchable with pixelating, tearing, freezing and frequent audio dropouts.
> Tivo and Amazon need to get their heads together and get this fixed. Enough is enough. Margaret, are they really, really working on this?


I'm not sure what you're saying here. Amazon HD VOD movies are not streamed. They are still, today, downloaded. The idea that you may be able to start watching it prior to it completing the download does not mean it is being streamed. That being said, I agree that 100% of Amazon HD movies in my experience are pixelated on my Premiere, and I also never start watching ever until the movie is fully downloaded.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

sbiller said:


> I think most of the thread readers just want to ***** & moan and don't really want to help Tivo solve the problem.


I think that's exactly the kind of statement that really pushes my buttons. I absolutely do not agree with it in any possible way. I would characterize it far differently.

1) Some people have simply given up for the moment on this "feature" and are not willing to throw good money after bad and waste more time downloading, watching a terrible quality movie, taking videos, uploading/emailing those videos, etc. Frankly, for somebody technically competent that's actually a major intrusion. For somebody not technically savvy, it's a nightmare. I can't blame people for not wanting to go through this. For myself, as I said - due to yet larger problems of more core criticality, I don't really use the Elite for anything other than a repository any longer.

2) Frankly, I don't see people "whining" here. I see complaints - such as my own - that aren't all THAT ticked off and where many (including myself) have said that this is an annoyance but not completely critical.

3) The biggest issue is that I simply don't even understand the necessity of Tivo asking for this. I'm not pushing back to Margret. I appreciate her involvement. But this is a very clear, easy to replicate, location agnostic defect. There should be absolutely no need whatsoever for customers to hel replicate this defect. As opposed to the random reboot issues where perhaps better instrumentation on the part of Tivo could lead to data collection which helps diagnose the root cause, this particular issue is a slam dunk in being able to replicate it.

Just my 2 cents. I really get hacked off when people criticize PAYING CUSTOMERS who are OBVIOUSLY NOT GETTING WHAT THEY PAID FOR rather than holding Tivo accountable. That may not be your intent, but that's the way that statement came across. Sorry if I did not interpret it correctly.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dr_Diablo said:


> I'm puttin my money on the freakin cable companies for forkin up the signal as it passes through the Tivo


I humbly suggest you read through this post before taking that position. I believe we have sufficiently investigated this and proven that this is not the case. It is simply not possible. When you have users (such as myself) who own multiple units including multiple HDs, where the HDs never ever have this issue, where the HD units were even swapped (location, HDMI cables, CAT5 Ethernet patch cords, RG6 port and cables) and the HD units had zero issues but the Premieres do not, when you even then download the exact same titles on the Premiere and then on the HD, and the HD always ALWAYS plays fine but the Premiere ALWAYS has the heavy pixelation.....

I fail to see how the cablecos can somehow alter the packets but ONLY the Premiere exhibits the issue. Consistently. Every time. And, BTW, where we've measured signal strength/SNR. And, BTW, where this is happening across virtually all cablecos. It is not manifesting itself on just one or two carriers.

I'll take your money if you like. It's very hard for me to defend cablecos, but in this case I can't find a single solitary possibility where they could even be contributing to root case. As others have said, this strongly points to an encode/decode issue.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

sbiller said:


> I understand your frustration. There is no doubt that TiVo has had their software quality issues starting with the release of the Premiere two years ago. I'm guessing and speculating that at some point they realized that patching and improving the 14.x code was impossible and the software required a complete re-write from the ground up. I believe 20.2 is the result of that massive effort where they now have a unified code base for all Series 4 based software. If you have a chance go peak at the Virgin Media forums. Overall you'll find a very active user community that is extremely satisfied with the product which far exceeds their competition. Those users in the UK are talking more about advanced features that they want added to the box instead of problems like spontaneous reboots and sluggish behavior. With 20.2 we now have a code base that is unified with the VMED software and we are starting to see the benefits of the completely re-architected software.


sbiller, I hope you're right, but frankly that doesn't change my impression. Tivo software quality issues started LONG before the Premiere. I lived through the early days of the HD, and I waited a long time before getting a premiere because of those quality issues in the HD. I was kind of teetering between leaving Tivo or not, and then the Elite came out. Simply because of the 4 tuners and the capacity (literally nothing else really was important to me). So, it looked "OK" and I gave Tivo another chance. Now, as you say we're here - 2 yrs down the road on the Premiere line, with higher service fees, dealing with the same old software quality issues. Again, I'm not expecting zero defects. I AM expecting no high severity critical core defects. The pixelation defect is not IMO a high sev critical defect. But it's ridiculous in that I can't for a moment excuse the fact that it exists. This one was far to easy to catch in testing. The others (reboots, etc) are high severity critical core.

So, while I obviously hope 20.2 is a serious improvement, that in no way excuses Tivo for what I believe to be simply quality that can't even be described as mediocre. I paid a big chunk of money for that Elite. I pay yet more (meaning both just that I'm paying for another unit service AND that Tivo increased service rates by 25% or more), and I'm in no possible interpretation getting value for that money.

Here's my own situation FWIW. I now own 2 HDs (1 with a Weaknees high capacity drive) and the Elite. I also have a free (for as long as I own this home) Verizon HD DVR and a free HD STB (which does whole house streaming). I don't have lifetime subs on them, for several reasons. Most notably, because I truly believe we're in a time of rapid change where there is far more IP delivered content and we're approaching (though clearly not there yet) the time when we'll get content far differently than in the past. In that case, Tivo is absolutely not in a position which guarantees them top billing. Maybe they will be, maybe they won't. I tend to think they won't because even in a closed system, they have consistently demonstrated UI excellence, but quality problems. Since it takes IMHO at least 26 months to even break even on the upfront investment for lifetime, it just isn't worth it to me. What that means is that while I know there are other strategies, in MY strategy there is no incremental value for Tivo, and any cost decrease from alternatives instantly means I save money. So, I continue to look at media server based systems, as well as newer upgraded offerings from the providers. The current equipment I have from Verizon is the same equipment I've had since 2007. It has never, ever failed. Ever. It has never rebooted, it gets VOD content seamlessly. Clearly, it has its limitations. The UI is nowhere nearly as good as Tivo. The capacity is severely limited. But I'll live with a mediocre UI over a great one that isn't reliable. IF their STB ever approaches the capacity and tuner content of my Tivos, I will likely leave Tivo. It's just that simple. The real problem is that I think my perception far more closely mirrors the average "joe" on the street who doesn't want to pay for a device up front, who doesn't want to be locked into a contract, and who doesn't want to pay $300 or $400 for "lifetime" for a "specific" unit - which cannot be transfered. And who doesn't want to have to have "insurance" or be responsible for the cost of repairs/ replacement after 12 months. He'd rather take a failed unit to his local provider, hand it to them and have them hand him a replacement. For free. Keep in mind that just yesterday, the idjuts in Tivo tech support told me that since I have 14.9.2.2, and was experiencing reboot issues, and since they could not get me 20.2, that I should pay $49 to swap an ELITE that I just paid $499 for - less than 3 months ago - knowing that it would not likely solve any problems.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

sbiller said:


> I did both (see my post above with pictures) and Margret acknowledged my email.
> 
> I believe they are working on a solution to the problem. I would be very surprised if they don't already know what the issue is. I'm betting on some sort of decoding issue with the encoding that was optimized for the Series 3 platform. The question is how easy it will be to fix because different files for the Series 3 and Series 4 is probably not a viable option.
> 
> I think most of the thread readers just want to ***** & moan and don't really want to help Tivo solve the problem.


Good job. Not sure how I missed that. I don't have a Premiere yet or I'd check those identical screens to see if it's consistent. It's not quite worth $4.99 to me just to verify that it's ok on the S3. 

Since decoding is done on chip, it seems like the worst case would be a problem with the firmware for the chip that would have to be fixed by the maker. Hopefully it's just a problem with the way the data is being passed to the chip and it will be an easy fix for TiVo.

Unfortunately I think that you're right about *****ing and moaning. People assume that problems like these are easy to find and isolate and that *****ing and moaning should be enough. The truth is that they can sometimes be needle in a haystack problems that are only found when you have thousands of customers rolling around in the haystack. Just screaming "ouch" doesn't make it any easier to find the needle.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

wmhjr said:


> 3) The biggest issue is that I simply don't even understand the necessity of Tivo asking for this. I'm not pushing back to Margret. I appreciate her involvement. But this is a very clear, easy to replicate, location agnostic defect.


Have we really gathered enough information here to say that? Most of the complaints don't even bother mentioning what download they're complaining about, never mind whether it's repeatable or consistent.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

nrc said:


> Have we really gathered enough information here to say that? Most of the complaints don't even bother mentioning what download they're complaining about, never mind whether it's repeatable or consistent.


I'm not sure how we could really conclude anything else. Have you read through the posts to see some of the testing and troubleshooting people have done? And how repeatable it truly is? To be honest, this is perhaps the most repeatable, consistent, and clear defect I've seen in years. Not saying the actual root cause is that clear or that remediation is. But that duplicating the issue seems to be unbelievable easy.

Truly, I'm curious as to whether you've read through the threads and some of the other posts.

I'll also reiterate the fact that in this case, expecting customers to go further in troubleshooting the issue means expecting that they will also pay extra money to do so. Specifically, that it takes paying for, then downloading, then watching content in order to provide feedback - not even inclusive of the time spent documenting. I am offended that this gets characterized as just moaning and complaining without helping when in fact as an example, I've gone through hours of troubleshooting, relocating units, swapping HDMI cables, ethernet ports, etc - all clearly documenting that in every single case the problem ALWAYS follows the Elite and never occurs - including on the same titles (content) as the HD. That's a lot more than moaning and complaining. Remember, we're the (paying) customer, right?

I should also mention as I forgot, there is a poll I created here which is hardly scientific, but clearly shows at least a pattern of consistency. Again, I am curious if you've read the other threads and posts. My guess is that you missed them.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

wmhjr said:


> I'm not sure how we could really conclude anything else. Have you read through the posts to see some of the testing and troubleshooting people have done? And how repeatable it truly is? To be honest, this is perhaps the most repeatable, consistent, and clear defect I've seen in years. Not saying the actual root cause is that clear or that remediation is. But that duplicating the issue seems to be unbelievable easy.


I think we're talking in different terms here. You clearly have a different idea than I of what it means to duplicate a software problem or demonstrate that it repeatably. I'm not arguing that there's not a problem, I just haven't seen it demonstrated in any of the threads I've seen as consistent or repeatable.

That would mean, for example, someone else downloading the same movie as sbiller posted above and reporting that they're seeing the same issue in the same places.

Nobody is obligated to help TiVo troubleshoot this problem or spend any money doing so. But when you're troubleshooting complex software systems the more specific details you can gather about a problem, the faster it can be solved.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

nrc said:


> That would mean, for example, someone else downloading the same movie as sbiller posted above and reporting that they're seeing the same issue in the same places.
> 
> Nobody is obligated to help TiVo troubleshoot this problem or spend any money doing so. But when you're troubleshooting complex software systems the more specific details you can gather about a problem, the faster it can be solved.


nrc, that is a great point. Anyone in this thread buy and download The Ides of March? Its not a bad movie! 

It would completely eliminate any thesis about the downloaded file being corrupted if the behavior was identical.


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## SamuriHL (Jan 24, 2012)

I see this issue on pretty much any HD Amazon VOD that I put on my Elite. I've got the entire season of Rocket City ******** (hey don't judge! ) and episode 2 of Pan Am and all of those tend to show video corruption at various points. I've learned to live with it but if they do manage to fix this then that'd be truly awesome. I have not had a chance to try them since I updated to 20.2 a few minutes ago.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

SamuriHL said:


> I see this issue on pretty much any HD Amazon VOD that I put on my Elite. I've got the entire season of Rocket City ******** (hey don't judge! ) and episode 2 of Pan Am and all of those tend to show video corruption at various points. I've learned to live with it but if they do manage to fix this then that'd be truly awesome. I have not had a chance to try them since I updated to 20.2 a few minutes ago.


Do you have an exact location (minutes:seconds) in Pan Am that you can point to so I can try to duplicate?


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## SamuriHL (Jan 24, 2012)

sbiller said:


> Do you have an exact location (minutes:seconds) in Pan Am that you can point to so I can try to duplicate?


I don't offhand and won't be able to get them tonight as our schedule is full. I'll see if I can get that info for you tomorrow if I get a chance.


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## snagitseven (Jul 8, 2009)

My testing results are complete and I can report that EVERY. SINGLE. VOD. MOVIE. I. PURCHASE. has the defects as reported by others in this thread. I've followed the troubleshooting steps provided by the Amazon VOD people, i.e. rebooting the Premier, the modem and router, checked for fast connection etc. No change. The latest software? No change. Get Amazon credits and re-rent the movie? No change. Stand on my head while whistling Dixie? No change.

The Amazon rep told me they definitely are "working on the problem". Same as they told me a month ago when I called. I don't see the need for more testing and confirmation. They should be able to easily duplicate the complaints that so many others are experiencing. Suggesting that we users need to continue to do so is a redundant waste of time of an easily reproducable problem. Amazon engineers just need to get with TiVo engineers and figure it out. That's what they're paid to do (from our revenues), no?


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## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

Hi all,

Thanks for your patience. We have figured out the Amazon macroblocking issue, and we have a fix coming in the Spring release.

If you are a heavy Amazon user and would like to help us Beta test the next update, please:

1. Apply to become a Beta tester:
https://fieldtrials.tivo.com/signup/default.html

2. Send me email after you have completed the signup, and let me know how often you purchase Amazon downloads ([email protected])

Thanks again (and sorry you experienced this issue in the first place).

Best,
--Margret


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## SamuriHL (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks, Margret!


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## snagitseven (Jul 8, 2009)

Good news if it does the trick!


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## snagitseven (Jul 8, 2009)

Has anyone applied for and received approval for being a Beta tester on this issue yet? I applied and emailed Margret but haven't heard anything yet. Still getting lots of macro-blocking on Amazon HD rentals though.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

snagitseven said:


> Has anyone applied for and received approval for being a Beta tester on this issue yet? I applied and emailed Margret but haven't heard anything yet. Still getting lots of macro-blocking on Amazon HD rentals though.


Part of being a beta tester means you can't post about it in public. So, I doubt you would get any type of response saying yes.


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## snagitseven (Jul 8, 2009)

Reviving an old thread here re the Amazon macroblocking issue. I wonder when the Spring release will be done that will supposedly fix this (It's now Spring). I can verify that 20.2 did not resolve this issue. Still get macroblocking and occasional audio dropouts on every HD rental from Amazon.

Just got a new 1080p Apple TV and will try renting HD movies from iTunes at the same $4.99 price for new releases. If that works w/o the macroblocking, I'm done with TiVo/Amazon movie rentals.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Indications are that the spring release is imminent. There's a priority sign-up available at TiVo.com. But I suppose it won't matter if you're done with TiVo for Amazon rentals.


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

smbaker said:


> My first foray into Amazon VOD on my Premiere was to rent 'Morning Glory' in HD. I was surprised to find a few dozen instances of weird mpeg pixelation. They ranged from just a few pixelated blocks to a couple of instances of half the picture inverted/pixelated/shifted for as long as 2-3 seconds. There were what looked like minor split-second frame skips too. The problems were uniform throughout the viewing.
> 
> The whole movie appeared to be fully downloaded before I started viewing. I'm not sure whether the problem was Amazon's, or something amiss with the Premiere, but it was somewhat disappointing that I couldn't watch a $5 VOD without having mpeg glitches strewn throughout it.
> 
> Anyone else experience such a problem? Are problems with Amazon VOD on the Premiere common? If so, I'll avoid it in the future.


I've had a few issues with this problem..

*A quick call to Amazon resolved the issue* with them allowing me to re-doenload the video in question... 90% of downloaded vids had no issues


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## snagitseven (Jul 8, 2009)

Got my latest generation Apple TV up and running. Tried renting a couple of movies and I'm sold. The 1080p picture quality seems to me even better than Amazon and 5.1 sound is excellent. Best of all, no more macroblocking, pixelization, freezes or audio dropouts. Perfect. And movies are available to stream in about 15 seconds. The ability to stream and mirror my iPad apps, iTunes music and photos from iPad or computer via Airplay is a plus. Very simple setup as well. Love it!


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## BrentAtlantaGa (Jul 6, 2011)

sbiller said:


> I've watched two HD rentals on Amazon Instant on my Premiere and Premiere Elite and both had some level of pixelation. Is anyone else still experiencing these issues?


I too have problems with alot of pixelation when downloading and watching Amazon HD movies. I want everyone to know that I not only got a refund from Amazon but they sent the same movie to my Premiere and my Series 3 30hr Tivos. The Series 3 was pristene and never had any pixelation what-so-ever whereas the Premiere had multiple pixelation problems. I had this done two different times with two different movies and the same thing was true. The premiere sucked and the series 3 HD Tivo was pristene and had zero problems with pixelation. What's the deal, TIVO! Can't you correct the problem. You have it right in front of you. What-ever hard drive you used in the Series 3, just use it or recall all our players and make the change. I returned my Premier xl and got another brand new one and it still pixelates.


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## JolDC (Dec 21, 2001)

BrentAtlantaGa said:


> I too have problems with alot of pixelation when downloading and watching Amazon HD movies. I want everyone to know that I not only got a refund from Amazon but they sent the same movie to my Premiere and my Series 3 30hr Tivos. The Series 3 was pristene and never had any pixelation what-so-ever whereas the Premiere had multiple pixelation problems. I had this done two different times with two different movies and the same thing was true. The premiere sucked and the series 3 HD Tivo was pristene and had zero problems with pixelation. What's the deal, TIVO! Can't you correct the problem. You have it right in front of you. What-ever hard drive you used in the Series 3, just use it or recall all our players and make the change. I returned my Premier xl and got another brand new one and it still pixelates.


The Spring release, rolling out right now, fixes this problem.


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## rparadis99 (Nov 24, 2007)

JolDC said:


> The Spring release, rolling out right now, fixes this problem.


A few months ago, I contributed a few thoughts on this topic. I had seen this problem on a handful of rentals and free HD videos I played via my Tivo Premiere.

I received the spring release on Friday. I can confirm for the handful of test cases and a movie I rented last night (The Descendants) that the problem was fixed. NI believe the Amazon HD video issue to be resolved on my Tivo Premiere box.


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## SamuriHL (Jan 24, 2012)

Indeed it has been fixed.


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## jaydro (Oct 19, 2003)

I've downloaded Amazon videos since getting the update, one with no issues and the other had one pixelation burst, so I'm not sure it's completely fixed, though it's certainly better than it was before.... I will be keeping an eye on this.


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## hargreae (Feb 23, 2005)

I had hoped the Spring update fixed this problem. But I downloaded Alien [HD] last week and there were still a few macroblocking and pixelization issues. I specifically remember within the two-minute mark was when I first noticed it.


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## mrrjm1 (Sep 9, 2009)

If I can add my 2 cents in here. I replaced the Hard drive in my Elite with a Western digital RE4 drive. I have to say after several months a haven't had any more pixelation issues. IMO the "green" drives are not suitable for the high demand of 4 HD tuners. 

Ray


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