# Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D "The only light in the darkness" OAD 4/22/2014



## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

The cellist from Portland! and it's Root!  and boy, i'm glad i didn't read the description of the episode as it hinted about the cellist. That was a nice surprise.

Poor Coulson. 

good episode. the series has definitely picked it up in the second half of the season.

Ok now fill me in, who the heck were May and her mom talking about at the end? Was that someone we should already know about? or someone else in the Marvel universe that's known to fans?


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

They said Maria, so I assume Maria hill


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Were we supposed to know the cellist?


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

I believe Coulson did say in an earlier episode that he had a special someone who he had to leave behind when he "died."


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

cmontyburns said:


> Were we supposed to know the cellist?


Just that she and Coulson were a thing.

I'm really glad that Skye found out about Ward already so it doesn't get long and drawn out.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Graymalkin said:


> I believe Coulson did say in an earlier episode that he had a special someone who he had to leave behind when he "died."


It was also spelled out in Iron Man 2, prior to the Avengers. Pepper Potts knew all about the Cellist in Portland, and Tony got jealous that Pepper was paying so much attention to Agent Coulson.


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## tibruk (Nov 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> It was also spelled out in Iron Man 2, prior to the Avengers. Pepper Potts knew all about the Cellist in Portland, and Tony got jealous that Pepper was paying so much attention to Agent Coulson.


I thought that was at the beginning of the Avengers when Coulson


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Ereth said:


> It was also spelled out in Iron Man 2, prior to the Avengers. Pepper Potts knew all about the Cellist in Portland, and Tony got jealous that Pepper was paying so much attention to Agent Coulson.


That was in Avengers. After Coulson drops off the packet on the Avengers with Tony, Pepper leaves with Coulson. As she is leaving, she says, "Oooh, I want to hear about the cellist. Is that still a thing?" Coulson replies, "She went back to Portland."


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

You are right. My memory is bad.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Lol. I googled the name Marcus Daniels and saw that it is indeed a marvel villain called blackout. I love it when they bring in villains from the comics.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I was surprised that Skye did not think, even for a second, that the traitor might be Melinda. The evidence that it was Ward was quite persuasive, but I did not expect Skye to be so rational about it so quickly.

I was also surprised that Skye did not use an ICE gun on Ward and capture him. Did she have second thoughts that he was the traitor? I don't think so, since she seemed quite certain. Does she really think she can outsmart him and get information on Hydra? Or does she think she can turn him from the dark side?

It seems the best lie detector in the world, combined with a terribly incompetent operator, can be beaten by sticking a pin under your fingernail (awfully long pin he had in there). Ironic that the guy was absolutely right about the need for following protocol, but he got himself killed anyway because he was so bad at administering the lie detector test.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Good episode.
Ward's certainly playing out his con game on Skye.

Wonder what May wants with Maria Hill?
Will she find her at Stark Tower?
(And Ontario looked suspiciously like Griffith Park.)

Did I hear correctly that Triplett is the grandson of Gabe Jones?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JYoung said:


> Wonder what May wants with Maria Hill?


Someone to give her orders and who does not dislike her.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> I was surprised that Skye did not think, even for a second, that the traitor might be Melinda. The evidence that it was Ward was quite persuasive, but I did not expect Skye to be so rational about it so quickly.


Did she even know there was a traitor before Melinda left, Skye saw Ward & Eric's radar blips in the Death Closet, and then found Eric dead there?

I don't think there was ever any room for reasonable doubt...unless I'm not remembering it right, she found out there was a traitor when she found out that Ward had killed Eric.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

DancnDude said:


> I'm really glad that Skye found out about Ward already so it doesn't get long and drawn out.


Amen!



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Did she even know there was a traitor before Melinda left, Skye saw Ward & Eric's radar blips in the Death Closet, and then found Eric dead there?
> 
> I don't think there was ever any room for reasonable doubt...unless I'm not remembering it right, she found out there was a traitor when she found out that Ward had killed Eric.


Even if she had a little doubt, Ward told her that he had talked to Eric just before they left, and she knew he was dead, so indeed, there was solid proof for her.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm assuming Koenig asked everybody if they were Hydra instead of just Ward.

Skye's real last name is Poots. That must have been painful in grade school.

Coulson is the calmest angry guy on tv.


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## caslu (Jun 24, 2003)

JDid I hear correctly that Triplett is the grandson of Gabe Jones?[/QUOTE said:


> You heard correctly that Triplett is the grandson of a Howling Commando, but are only assuming that it's Gabe Jones... could be any one of them really.


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## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

zordude said:


> They said Maria, so I assume Maria hill


And when can we get her on the show?


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## lambertman (Dec 21, 2002)

Skye is a Mary Sue. Confirmed.

(But really, just because the writers admit to the annoying thing they're doing, doesn't mean it's not still annoying.)


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Best line in the show...

Eric: "You are on a desert island and there's a box on the beach. What's in it?"
Simmons: "A Tardis"!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

RGM1138 said:


> And when can we get her on the show?


Well, Melinda's on a mission to find her and there are only (2? 3?) episodes left, so I'd guess pretty soon...


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## Michael S (Jan 12, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, Melinda's on a mission to find her and there are only (2? 3?) episodes left, so I'd guess pretty soon...





Spoiler



I think next week because was in the previews for next weeks episode.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

You might want to put that is spoiler tags. Against the rules to discuss previews.


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## Silverman (Jan 18, 2013)

May seems so familiar, what other shows was that actress in? I felt like I knew her when I first saw her.


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## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

Silverman said:


> May seems so familiar, what other shows was that actress in? I felt like I knew her when I first saw her.


She a doctor was in the last couple seasons of ER. She's striking me as quite a bit hotter in this show though.  Maybe I just like tough girls..


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

More recently she was in Eureka and Stargate Universe.


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## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

What pulled Skye out of her terror? They focused on her looking at the artwork in the bathroom: was that her being reminded of her roots, of "home"?

I was going to delete my Season Pass if she didn't put the penny back up on top of the door. The fact that she didn't immediately recognize it as a warning sign was disturbing enough.


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## alpacaboy (Oct 29, 2004)

Silverman said:


> May seems so familiar, what other shows was that actress in? I felt like I knew her when I first saw her.





MarkL said:


> She a doctor was in the last couple seasons of ER. She's striking me as quite a bit hotter in this show though.  Maybe I just like tough girls..


Way longer ago, she was on "The Single Guy" with Jonathan Silverman.
(I also saw her on ER, but I still think of her as from "The Single Guy" because that's where I first saw her.)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

martinp13 said:


> I was going to delete my Season Pass if she didn't put the penny back up on top of the door. The fact that she didn't immediately recognize it as a warning sign was disturbing enough.


Even more disturbing is the fact that super-spy Ward used such a clumsy and easily-defeated warning system...


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## FrodoB (Jan 3, 2005)

martinp13 said:


> What pulled Skye out of her terror? They focused on her looking at the artwork in the bathroom: was that her being reminded of her roots, of "home"?


Possibly, or maybe she just took a minute to think about it and calmed down. I didn't really interpret her reaction as "terror" so much as "this guy I really like and trust is evil and is betraying us!" (So shock more than fear.) She's pretty much been portrayed on the series as very rational; there are several times that she's come up with a plan when the others were ready to give up on something.



john4200 said:


> I was also surprised that Skye did not use an ICE gun on Ward and capture him. Did she have second thoughts that he was the traitor? I don't think so, since she seemed quite certain. Does she really think she can outsmart him and get information on Hydra? Or does she think she can turn him from the dark side?


For better or for worse, Ward is a very highly trained agent who has killed numerous times, and Skye is a hacker with no particular weapons training and little combat experience. If she misses, she's dead (or at least tortured until she revealed the location where the decryption would work, and then probably killed), so she may have figured that a straight out fight, even with some element of surprise, would not have gone well for her. At this point, Ward doesn't know that she knows he's a traitor, so she still has at least some amount of advantage (steering the plane to false coordinates, etc.).


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

MarkL said:


> She a doctor was in the last couple seasons of ER. She's striking me as quite a bit hotter in this show though.  Maybe I just like tough girls..


She's gotten much better looking as she got older.
Ming Na Wen is 50.
Hubba hubba


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

martinp13 said:


> I was going to delete my Season Pass if she didn't put the penny back up on top of the door. The fact that she didn't immediately recognize it as a warning sign was disturbing enough.


Well, there was no reason to think much about it, just then. After finding Eric, it made a lot more sense.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Even more disturbing is the fact that super-spy Ward used such a clumsy and easily-defeated warning system...


He was in a rush, so give him that.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Did she even know there was a traitor before Melinda left, Skye saw Ward & Eric's radar blips in the Death Closet, and then found Eric dead there?
> 
> I don't think there was ever any room for reasonable doubt...unless I'm not remembering it right, she found out there was a traitor when she found out that Ward had killed Eric.


You are not remembering it right. Skye did not see "Ward & Eric's radar blips in the Death Closet". Ward and Koenig's blips were in completely different locations (Ward was in the bathroom right next to Skye's blip).

And your logic is confused. All that is necessary for Melinda to be a suspect, logically, is that Koenig was not known to be alive after the time that Melinda was known to have left. And that criterion was met.

"when she found out that Ward had killed Eric" ?? What are you talking about?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

caslu said:


> You heard correctly that Triplett is the grandson of a Howling Commando, but are only assuming that it's Gabe Jones... could be any one of them really.


Knowing how TV works, Jones would be the first choice.
The other surviving Commandos are second choices.
Which is of interest since they seem to be grooming Triplett as the Ward replacement.

(Although being a Howling Commando wasn't a big help to Koenig  )


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

Anyone else taken aback when May leaves the secret outpost and just walks out the door. The next time we see her she is walking on a highway with no snow to meet her mom. Did May walk all that way? Wow, she is a fast walker and has great endurance!!!

Gerry


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## Doggie Bear (Jan 16, 2008)

With much of this episode set in Portland, I turned to my wife and asked, "Do you think Coulson will run across any wessen?"


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

john4200 said:


> You are not remembering it right. Skye did not see "Ward & Eric's radar blips in the Death Closet". Ward and Koenig's blips were in completely different locations (Ward was in the bathroom right next to Skye's blip).
> 
> And your logic is confused. All that is necessary for Melinda to be a suspect, logically, is that Koenig was not known to be alive after the time that Melinda was known to have left. And that criterion was met.
> 
> "when she found out that Ward had killed Eric" ?? What are you talking about?


What Rob means that Ward confirmed it himself when he told Skye that he had already told Koenig that they were leaving when she already knew that he was dead.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JYoung said:


> What Rob means that Ward confirmed it himself when he told Skye that he had already told Koenig that they were leaving when she already knew that he was dead.


Which makes no sense as a response to my point that Skye did not consider for a second that it could have been Melinda. The instant she saw Koenig's body, she concluded that Ward did it. She did not think even for a second that it might have been Melinda. Despite the fact that she has never liked Melinda, and she does like Ward -- she was just kissing him and telling him he was a good person. A lot of people would have first considered the one they did not like, who just mysteriously left, as the killer, and blocked out the possibility that the one they liked might have done it. But Skye immediately saw Ward as the killer and traitor. That says something important about her character, something that was not clear before this episode.

I agree that Ward saying he just talked to Koenig, when Skye had just seen his dead body, confirmed that Ward was the one. But I was talking about prior to that, before Skye got herself under control.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Now I have to go back and rewatch.

I swear Ward had mentioned that he had talked to Eric at a point in time *after* MM had left, and said so before Skye had found the body. Thus, when she found the body, it couldn't have been MM as the killer (unless the suspicion was that MM had returned). But I could well be misremembering.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

kdmorse said:


> Now I have to go back and rewatch.
> 
> I swear Ward had mentioned that he had talked to Eric at a point in time *after* MM had left, and said so before Skye had found the body. Thus, when she found the body, it couldn't have been MM as the killer (unless the suspicion was that MM had returned). But I could well be misremembering.


Apparently you do need to rewatch. When Ward came into the room to tell Skye about Koenig sending the information to the CIA and that Melinda was gone, Ward gave no indication of the relative times of those events occurring.


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

I, too, thought Skye would immediately suspect Melinda and not Ward. Because that's how TV script writers work.


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## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Apparently you do need to rewatch. When Ward came into the room to tell Skye about Koenig sending the information to the CIA and that Melinda was gone, Ward gave no indication of the relative times of those events occurring.


He does seem to suggest that he just finished talking to Koenig before walking in the room.

When Ward and Skye are talking in the hallway after Skye has discovered Koenig's body she says they should tell Koenig that they're leaving and Ward tells her that he just spoke to Koenig and that he's on the way to open the hangar doors for them. That tells her beyond the shadow of a doubt that Ward did it.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

She knew it was Ward from the fresh blood on his neck. Once she found Koenig dead, she connected the dots.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Jagman_sl said:


> He does seem to suggest that he just finished talking to Koenig before walking in the room.


Actually, he does not. As I said, there is no indication of the relative time of the two events: Ward talking to Koenig, and Melinda leaving. Even if Ward did just talk to Koenig a few minutes before talking to Skye, there was no indication given that Melinda was certainly gone before then. For all Skye was told, it could be that Koenig, Melinda, and Ward were talking, Melinda said she was leaving, and then Koenig left with Melinda to walk her out and Ward came to Skye.

But all of this is rather beside the point that I originally made which is that Skye did not consider for even a second that Melinda might have been the killer and traitor. Skye saw Koenig's body, pauses briefly, and then says "Ward".


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

cmontyburns said:


> She knew it was Ward from the fresh blood on his neck. Once she found Koenig dead, she connected the dots.


You are missing the point. That would be a rational conclusion to draw from the available evidence. But it was not proof, especially since Skye had already appeared to accept Ward's explanation of his wound re-opening. Even if it were stronger evidence, my point stands that Skye concluded "Ward" within a few seconds of seeing Koenig's dead body, despite the fact that she was just kissing Ward and telling him he was a good person a few minutes ago, and despite Skye's animosity towards Melinda.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

john4200 said:


> You are missing the point. That would be a rational conclusion to draw from the available evidence. But it was not proof, especially since Skye had already appeared to accept Ward's explanation of his wound re-opening. Even if it were stronger evidence, my point stands that Skye concluded "Ward" within a few seconds of seeing Koenig's dead body, despite the fact that she was just kissing Ward and telling him he was a good person a few minutes ago, and despite Skye's animosity towards Melinda.


I know you like to tell people in these threads that they're wrong, but you're going to have to take your own medicine this time. There were two points to the blood-on-the-neck scene:

1. Give Ward and Skye a reason to be separated so she could find Koenig;
2. Make sure Ward would be implicated, and not the absent Melinda.

You can argue that real people would not behave that way, or that it was poorly written (the scene you reference where Skye and Ward kissed was cringe-inducing), and you'd certainly have ground to stand on. But you seem to be arguing that the show did not justify Skye's conclusion that Ward killed Koenig, when of course it did. Again, there was that whole scene setting it up. This is not a Tom Clancy novel. It's instead one of the most underwritten things on TV. Plot points are set up and dealt with in just a few sentences and in brief scenes. This was actually one of the least-ridiculous things the show presented this week.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

cmontyburns said:


> But you seem to be arguing that the show did not justify Skye's conclusion that Ward killed Koenig...


Wrong. I do not know how I could be more clear, but you keep missing the point.


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## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Actually, he does not. As I said, there is no indication of the relative time of the two events: Ward talking to Koenig, and Melinda leaving. Even if Ward did just talk to Koenig a few minutes before talking to Skye, there was no indication given that Melinda was certainly gone before then. For all Skye was told, it could be that Koenig, Melinda, and Ward were talking, Melinda said she was leaving, and then Koenig left with Melinda to walk her out and Ward came to Skye.
> 
> But all of this is rather beside the point that I originally made which is that Skye did not consider for even a second that Melinda might have been the killer and traitor. Skye saw Koenig's body, pauses briefly, and then says "Ward".


Granted, he doesn't give exact times for anything, but he does come across as being completely "in the know" with the others' whereabouts. He spoke with confidence that he knew exactly where Koenig was, which, to me at least, does suggest he had recently spoken to Koenig. I do see how you feel that May leaving right before a body was found should suggest that she could be the killer. But I think we're supposed to believe that Skye's instincts are maybe a little more finely honed than most anybody else's. TV trope...

Of course, if there's one thing that these threads have taught me it's that if somebody on a show guesses incorrectly they're an idiot, but if they do guess correctly it should have been impossible for them to do so.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Actually, he does not. As I said, there is no indication of the relative time of the two events: Ward talking to Koenig, and Melinda leaving. Even if Ward did just talk to Koenig a few minutes before talking to Skye, there was no indication given that Melinda was certainly gone before then. For all Skye was told, it could be that Koenig, Melinda, and Ward were talking, Melinda said she was leaving, and then Koenig left with Melinda to walk her out and Ward came to Skye.
> 
> But all of this is rather beside the point that I originally made which is that Skye did not consider for even a second that Melinda might have been the killer and traitor. Skye saw Koenig's body, pauses briefly, and then says "Ward".


Yes he does.
Ward clearly implies he was just talking to Koenig just before he came to see Skye (who he said was sending the Fridge information to the CIA) because it suits his purpose the best.

Now you could say that he missed an opportunity to frame May.

But don't forget that his objective is to get Skye out of the Providence Bunker with a minimum of fuss so that she can willingly decrypt the hard drive.

Ward wants Skye relaxed and trusting of him so he tells her that he just saw Koenig (in response to her query) talking to the other agencies so she doesn't wonder where Eric is.

He also tells her that May's gone so Skye doesn't wonder where she is either.
Embroiling Skye in a murder situation doesn't suit his objective so he doesn't push the blame on May.

So he implies that May left before he just saw Koenig.

Of course, Skye finds Koenig's body, remembers the blood on Ward's ,and concludes that he's a traitor before he can get her out of the bunker.

Now, she should consider the possibility that Ward also killed May but that's not going to help her much in her current situation.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JYoung said:


> Yes he does.


No, there were no times given when Ward talked to Skye about those events. Assuming "just before" is not a time of an event. You could just as easily assume Ward talked to Melinda "just before" he talked to Skye, and he talked to Koenig "just before" he talked to Melinda. Or they could have been simultaneous. It is all assumption, since Ward gave no indication of the relative times of those events.

And you are completely missing the point, unless you think Skye actually memorized what Ward said and then played it back in her head and made a judgment call during the few seconds from when she found Koenig's dead body and when she concluded "Ward". And if you really think that is what is going on in that few seconds, then we don't have anything to talk about.


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Best line in the show...
> 
> Eric: "You are on a desert island and there's a box on the beach. What's in it?"
> Simmons: "A Tardis"!


+1


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

cmontyburns said:


> I know you like to tell people in these threads that they're wrong, but you're going to have to take your own medicine this time.


Somehow I don't think that's going to work on him... 

There's a limited number of people who could have killed Koenig. Ward's circumstances and behavior were suspicious. That's sufficient for a television character like Skye to assume that Ward is the killer and not Melinda May or bigfoot or some stealthy secret hydra boogeyman.

Personally, I think an average real person might have assumed that someone else had infiltrated the base rather than suddenly assuming her trusted friend, colleague, and love interest was a secret enemy double agent. But, these aren't real people. They're television characters.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smbaker said:


> Somehow I don't think that's going to work on him...


It is certainly not going to "work" by saying that an argument that I did not make was wrong. cmontyburns totally missed the point I was making, and then went on to "prove" that something he imagined I was saying was wrong.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> It is certainly not going to "work" by saying that an argument that I did not make was wrong. cmontyburns totally missed the point I was making, and then went on to "prove" that something he imagined I was saying was wrong.


I think everyone "gets" what you're saying, it's just that they disagree or don't care.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Peter000 said:


> I think everyone "gets" what you're saying, it's just that they disagree or don't care.


Since no less than three people have argued with my posts about the details of the evidence implicating Ward rather than addressing my point, it is quite obvious that not everyone "gets" it.

EDIT: add bitbyblit to the list, making at least four


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

OMG..... move on already.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

NJChris said:


> OMG..... move on already.


What exactly do you mean by that?


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)




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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

cmontyburns said:


> She knew it was Ward from the fresh blood on his neck. Once she found Koenig dead, she connected the dots.


On top of that, Ward was the only one that had real motive to kill Koenig right when he was getting surveillance video of the Fridge. We know Skye already thought it was weird that the video showed absolutely nothing going on, so seeing Koenig dead caused her realization of what had happened to fall into place.

Of course, "Ward" was just her initial gut reaction. While she was sobbing in the bathroom, she could very well have also considered May as a suspect. But she would have rejected May for two reasons:

1. May would only have wanted to cover up the surveillance video if she were covering for someone else. But why didn't Ward run into that person?

2. Why didn't May take the Bus? That would have been a great asset to Hydra.

But still, once she got over the shock of Ward most likely being a Hydra agent, she needed to confirm it.

That's why she watched his reaction when he opened the closet. Innocent Ward would have wondered what that penny was doing there, gone in, and discovered Koenig's body. But guilty Ward didn't want Skye to know Koenig was dead, so he acted like the penny was nothing interesting, and closed the closet before Skye could see inside.

And finally, to confirm her suspicions beyond any doubt whatsoever, she asked Ward specifically about Koenig, and his answer made his allegiance absolutely clear.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Peter000 said:


> I think everyone "gets" what you're saying, it's just that they disagree or don't care.





john4200 said:


> Since no less than three people have argued with my posts about the details of the evidence implicating Ward rather than addressing my point, it is quite obvious that not everyone "gets" it.
> 
> EDIT: add bitbyblit to the list, making at least four


No, we're saying that with what was laid out, there's no real reason to consider May when it's Ward who lied to her.

If you want to play Johnny Cochran and get into the extreme minutia instead of seeing the big picture though, have at it.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Since no less than three people have argued with my posts about the details of the evidence implicating Ward rather than addressing my point, it is quite obvious that not everyone "gets" it.
> 
> EDIT: add bitbyblit to the list, making at least four


This is what you posted:



john4200 said:


> I was surprised that Skye did not think, even for a second, that the traitor might be Melinda. The evidence that it was Ward was quite persuasive, but I did not expect Skye to be so rational about it so quickly.


I pointed out that Skye likely was not certain that Ward was Hydra, at least not at the beginning, and thus must have considered the possibility that it could have been May.

But I also think you are overestimating her feelings for Ward and animosity toward May. Her animosity toward May only resurfaced when she thought May was betraying Coulson. But nothing indicated that any of that remained once they got to Providence.

And so far Ward has been the one primarily making the moves on her. While Skye has seemed somewhat interested, nothing has indicated that she was so blinded by love that all reason would have escaped her. On top of that, she is a genius computer hacker, so she would have a more analytical mind than most.

The blood likely triggered Skye's memory of having seen it on Ward just moments ago along with his acting weird about it. That, combined with Ward having been at the Fridge combined with Ward's association with Garrett combined with May having been involved in a confrontation where Garrett was about to kill her all strongly implicated Ward.

Her mind most likely automatically connected the dots subconsciously, and it was an instinctive reaction for her to conclude, "Ward". No doubt after that initial gut reaction, she consciously processed all the facts. But at least she had the wherewithal to hide from Ward until she could verify one way or the other.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JYoung said:


> No, we're saying that with what was laid out, there's no real reason to consider May when it's Ward who lied to her.
> 
> If you want to play Johnny Cochran and get into the extreme minutia instead of seeing the big picture though, have at it.


Still completely missing the point. In fact, you have accused me of exactly what you are doing.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

BitbyBlit said:


> Her mind most likely automatically connected the dots subconsciously, and it was an instinctive reaction for her to conclude, "Ward".


Which is quite an amazing and unusual thing for a person to do so quickly in such a situation, given natural biases, the complexity of the evidence, and the stress of finding a colleague's dead body. Which was my original point.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Which is quite an amazing and unusual thing for a person to do so quickly in such a situation, given natural biases, the complexity of the evidence, and the stress of finding a colleague's dead body. Which was my original point.


Disagree.

If Melinda had been the killer, there would have been no reason for her to hide Koenig's body, or, if she DID hide the body, to put a trigger on the door so she'd know if someone discovered it. It would be completely illogical and a waste of getaway time. So the penny on the door made it clear that it was Ward who killed him. Any lingering doubt she may have had was erased when Ward said nothing about the penny when he opened the door, and when he told her Koenig was opening the hanger doors for them.

I was more surprised that she didn't consider, even wrongly, that Ward had killed May as well. (Note that she may have, but she didn't articulate it, which I would have expected.)

and yeah, as soon as Ward opened the door to the closet, I said "Skye better have put that penny back".


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

You all realize he will never, never quit, right?


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You all realize he will never, never quit, right?


That is our fault. We should just admit that he is perfect, that his logic is infallible, and that he is smarter than all of us put together. Once I reached that conclusion, I stopped banging my head against my desk.


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## ehusen (Jan 7, 2002)

I actually thought this episode was pretty okay. I didn't think the characters acted too far from what would be logical. I still have issues though, as others have stated...

How did Melinda May get back to civilization? It is supposed to be extremely remote and secret and all. I just don't think she could have walked.

Why did Ward use a penny? Come on, Bond did this right 50 years ago. You use a small length of string laid in front of the door. If it's messed up/moved you know someone has been through the door but without telegraphing your warning system. What good is a warning that immediately tells the person entering that they have been detected. (Pennies don't magically wind up on top of a door).


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Maybe Ward had a penny, but didn't have any string. Would it be better if he had used a more sophisticated system, but Skye had sussed it out anyway? I'd rather have Ward be in a hurry and use what he had available, even if imperfect, than another scene where Skye is unbelievably talented and/or lucky.


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

john4200 said:


> What exactly do you mean by that?


He means you're being annoying and not furthering the discussion of the episode at all.

With all your brilliant insight, I'm surprised you missed that.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

JoBeth66 said:


> If Melinda had been the killer, there would have been no reason for her to hide Koenig's body, or, if she DID hide the body, to put a trigger on the door so she'd know if someone discovered it. It would be completely illogical and a waste of getaway time.


Or even create a body in the first place. Why kill Koenig and then say goodbye to Ward, or vice versa? There was no clear reason why May would want Koenig dead, but not Ward or Skye.

The most likely reason to kill Koenig would be to keep someone still at the base from finding out something about someone else still at the base. That left two possibilities: Skye killed Koenig to prevent Ward from finding out something or Ward killed Koenig to prevent Skye from finding out something. And Skye could eliminate one of them.



JoBeth66 said:


> I was more surprised that she didn't consider, even wrongly, that Ward had killed May as well. (Note that she may have, but she didn't articulate it, which I would have expected.)


I think if she did consider it in her head, she probably realized that since Ward didn't know about the lanyard tracking system, May's lanyard would have still been in the building had her body been hidden somewhere else.

Thus, May must have really left.

But if the thought that Ward might have killed May as well did pop into her head when she discovered Koenig, that would have been one more thing that would have pushed her initial gut reaction into the "Ward did it" territory.

And I suppose it's still possible that she thinks May truly wanted to leave, but Ward might have gotten to her outside, and killed her there. If so, she likely knows that she needs to tread lightly because Ward told her May had left, and she needs to continue to pretend that she trusts him completely. So even if she suspects that Ward might have killed May, she has to be careful about how she probes him about it.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> I think if she did consider it in her head, she probably realized that since Ward didn't know about the lanyard tracking system, May's lanyard would have still been in the building had her body been hidden someone else.
> 
> Thus, May must have really left.
> 
> ...


That's really good analysis. Makes sense when you look at it that way.


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## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

JoBeth66 said:


> Disagree.
> 
> If Melinda had been the killer, there would have been no reason for her to hide Koenig's body, or, if she DID hide the body, to put a trigger on the door so she'd know if someone discovered it. It would be completely illogical and a waste of getaway time. So the penny on the door made it clear that it was Ward who killed him.


I think that this, more than anything else, exonerates May as the killer, leaving only Ward.


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## alpacaboy (Oct 29, 2004)

[joking]
Maybe the penny was a decoy and he also put a hair or something elsewhere on the door so he knows he was discovered.
[/joking]


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I'll get a screenshot of the door and enhance it to see if we can see a hair on it.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Gerryex said:


> Anyone else taken aback when May leaves the secret outpost and just walks out the door. The next time we see her she is walking on a highway with no snow to meet her mom. Did May walk all that way? Wow, she is a fast walker and has great endurance!!!


I have no problems assuming May is a resourceful enough agent to secure transportation (stealing cars, hitching rides, heck, leaping onto moving trains) to get there, and we just didn't see the voyage since it wasn't noteworthy. It does seem like it was awfully quick, though, considering how little time passed comparatively for the others.

Didn't someone observe that the name Koenig was shared with one of the Howling Commandos, suggesting maybe that character might be a grandson of one of them? Or did I imagine that? If that's the case, maybe this was a funny way of saying that, despite the name, he wasn't actually what we guessed he might be.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Hunter Green said:


> Didn't someone observe that the name Koenig was shared with one of the Howling Commandos, suggesting maybe that character might be a grandson of one of them?


In the comics, Eric Koenig was one of the Howling Commandos. However, the Cinematic Universe doesn't necessarily depict the characters in the same way as the comics. (For example, Jasper Sitwell also appeared in the comics, but there he was a loyal SHIELD agent.)


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Also, the time difference is more notable here.

Captain America first came back in the 1960s, only 20 years after he fought in WW2. It was conceivable that he could run into other veterans of WW2 still active and fighting for SHIELD at that time. Comics time elasticity let those characters continue to live even though the idea that these middle-aged men fought in WW2 is now ridiculous.

But the movies brings Cap back 70 years after he froze in ice, not 20. It's clear to the audience that he won't be running into any other young(ish) healthy men who also fought in WW2, so while Cap fought along side the Howling Commandos in the comics for decades, they can't do that here.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

eddyj said:


> That is our fault. We should just admit that he is perfect, that his logic is infallible, and that he is smarter than all of us put together.


I tried this in another thread. IIRC he didn't know how to respond to being declared the winner and started calling me names.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

It bugs me that Skye didn't check to be sure whether Koenig was possibly still alive, and that she didn't check him for any weapons that it might be handy to have with a would-be murderer running around.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

unitron said:


> It bugs me that Skye didn't check to be sure whether Koenig was possibly still alive, and that she didn't check him for any weapons that it might be handy to have with a would-be murderer running around.


Time was of the essence. She saw from the pad that Ward was wandering the base.

She's also not necessarily trained to know what to do in that situation. She's the agent with the least amount of formal training. She probably panicked.


----------



## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

Plus he was stuffed in the ceiling, was dripping blood, and had the dead eyes. I'm no doctor but I think I'd call it at that point, too...


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Jagman_sl said:


> Plus he was stuffed in the ceiling, was dripping blood, and had the dead eyes. I'm no doctor but I think I'd call it at that point, too...


Did you run it on slow motion or on a really big screen?

'Cause the version I saw never stayed on him long enough for me to focus on anything.


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## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

unitron said:


> Did you run it on slow motion or on a really big screen?
> 
> 'Cause the version I saw never stayed on him long enough for me to focus on anything.


Big screen.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Ereth said:


> Also, the time difference is more notable here.
> 
> Captain America first came back in the 1960s, only 20 years after he fought in WW2. It was conceivable that he could run into other veterans of WW2 still active and fighting for SHIELD at that time. Comics time elasticity let those characters continue to live even though the idea that these middle-aged men fought in WW2 is now ridiculous.
> 
> But the movies brings Cap back 70 years after he froze in ice, not 20. It's clear to the audience that he won't be running into any other young(ish) healthy men who also fought in WW2, so while Cap fought along side the Howling Commandos in the comics for decades, they can't do that here.


About that same time they were thawing out Cap for the first time the original Nick Fury (white guy, used to be a Sgt. and led the Howling Commandos) was having some gray added to his temples and being recruited to be an agent of S.H.E.I.L.D., and all of that was going on during my early adolescence. (In later adolescence comic books took a back seat to other interests)

So it's still a little strange for me for Fury to be a black guy born about the same time I was.

Not as strange as if they'd used Hasselhoff for the Shaft remake though.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Jagman_sl said:


> Plus he was stuffed in the ceiling, was dripping blood, and had the dead eyes. I'm no doctor but I think I'd call it at that point, too...


Doesn't that seem like an odd place to stash a blood-dripping corpse? Why not just hide him behind some of the boxes? Absent the tracking devices, Skye wasn't likely to have gone into that room.

It just sounds like a lot of extra work to me (then again, it's just a silly TV show).


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Jagman_sl said:


> Big screen.


I think a lot of stuff is starting to be shot not just for wider screens but for bigger ones, so where in the past they might have zoomed in more on something important to the plot, or kept it on the screen longer, now it's become blink and you miss it.


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## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

smbaker said:


> Doesn't that seem like an odd place to stash a blood-dripping corpse? Why not just hide him behind some of the boxes? Absent the tracking devices, Skye wasn't likely to have gone into that room.
> 
> It just sounds like a lot of extra work to me (then again, it's just a silly TV show).


Not to mention actually placing the body on the grate when there were solid ceiling tiles right next to it. If Ward is the best that HYDRA has to offer then this may not last long....


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Jagman_sl said:


> If Ward is the best that HYDRA has to offer then this may not last long....


Well yeah, but then put him in comparison against what Shield has to offer... They couldn't even administer the lie detector test properly.

One agent of shield left because her feelings were hurt. Another left to go save his ex-girlfriend. Meanwhile, HYDRA steals the bus right out from under them.


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## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

smbaker said:


> Well yeah, but then put him in comparison against what Shield has to offer... They couldn't even administer the lie detector test properly.
> 
> One agent of shield left because her feelings were hurt. Another left to go save his ex-girlfriend. Meanwhile, HYDRA steals the bus right out from under them.


LOL! Good points!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

An argument could be made that they'd be better off just being slaves to Hydra.



SHIELD, by the way, is an acronym, hence the capitals (more properly S.H.I.E.L.D.). Hydra is just a word.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> Disagree.


And a fifth one completely misses the point.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> An argument could be made that they'd be better off just being slaves to Hydra.
> 
> 
> 
> SHIELD, by the way, is an acronym, hence the capitals (more properly S.H.I.E.L.D.). Hydra is just a word.


Since S.H.I.E.L.D is a terrorist organization now, and the Government is going to need some sort of intelligence/security agency, do you think we'll get H.A.M.M.E.R. next?


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

ehusen said:


> How did Melinda May get back to civilization? It is supposed to be extremely remote and secret and all. I just don't think she could have walked.





Gerryex said:


> Anyone else taken aback when May leaves the secret outpost and just walks out the door. The next time we see her she is walking on a highway with no snow to meet her mom. Did May walk all that way? Wow, she is a fast walker and has great endurance!!!
> Gerry


That was my point. Even within the usually unbelievable SHIELD universe I thought this was totally ridiculous!! First we see May walking out of the outpost in a heavy coat and in the snow. And the next time we see her she is walking without a jacket and there's no snow on the ground, and while nothing is explicitly said it seems that very little time passed. Silly!!!

Gerry


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

john4200 said:


> And a fifth one completely misses the point.


One might conjecture that if every single person misses your point that one of two possibilities exist:

1) You didn't make your point very well

or

2) Your point is just wrong and nobody agrees with you.

Take your pick.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> One might conjecture that if every single person misses your point that one of two possibilities exist:
> 
> 1) You didn't make your point very well
> 
> ...


3) Your conjectures are worthless and you just want to make a personal attack


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

john4200 said:


> 3) Your conjectures are worthless and you just want to make a personal attack


Which part of that was a personal attack?

If you are the only person on the planet who understands your point, it stands to reason that you haven't expressed your point well, does it not?

If others DO understand your point, but still argue against you, it stands to reason that they believe you are in error, does it not?


----------



## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> SHIELD, by the way, is an acronym, hence the capitals (more properly S.H.I.E.L.D.). Hydra is just a word.


It's funny, because I do see it written both ways. Even the Wikipedia article on Hydra has it capitalized in the header and just the capital H in the body. But you're definitely correct that Marvel themselves only use the capital H spelling. Now I'm curious where the all-caps version comes from.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> If you are the only person on the planet who understands your point, it stands to reason that you haven't expressed your point well, does it not?
> 
> If others DO understand your point, but still argue against you, it stands to reason that they believe you are in error, does it not?


3) Many people do understand the simple point, which was clearly expressed, and they agree with it. So they have nothing to post.

I first wrote: "I was surprised that Skye did not think, even for a second, that the traitor might be Melinda. The evidence that it was Ward was quite persuasive, but I did not expect Skye to be so rational about it so quickly."

Later, I responded to the assertion that Skye subconsciously put things together in the few seconds between finding the dead body and saying "Ward" with: "Which is quite an amazing and unusual thing for a person to do so quickly in such a situation, given natural biases, the complexity of the evidence, and the stress of finding a colleague's dead body."

If you think this point was expressed unclearly, we might conjecture that the problem is with your reading comprehension, and not the point as expressed.

As for disagreeing with the point, it is certainly possible that a reasonable person could disagree. Such a person might argue that most people, in Skye's situation, having just freaked out over finding the blood-dripping dead body of a colleague, would have taken only a few seconds to review all the evidence in their head and immediately deduce that the murderer and traitor was the man who, a few minutes ago, they were kissing and telling that he was a good person.

But arguing about the details of the evidence for Ward being the killer is not disagreeing with my point, which, by the way, included the phrase "the evidence that it was Ward was quite persuasive".


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> SHIELD, by the way, is an acronym, hence the capitals (more properly S.H.I.E.L.D.).


I thought they just didn't know how to use capslock (which wouldn't be surprising given their general ineptitude).


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

john4200 said:


> 3) Many people do understand the simple point, which was clearly expressed, and they agree with it. So they have nothing to post.


4) many people have you on ignore.

5) those who don't have you on ignore recognize the futility of arguing with you.

ETA: most of all, I think you underestimate the number of people who simply don't care. The point you're making is not particularly important. As an audience, we're clearly shown the order of events that leads Skye to realize Ward is a double agent. Whether or not Skye's realization is reasonable and realistic given the time frame is utterly and completely unimportant given a universe with superheroes, gods, and aliens.


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> And a fifth one completely misses the point.


Maybe you can clarify this point for those of us who don't occupy the rarified space in the atmosphere in which you seem to reside.

I responded to the post you made. I can only respond to what you write.

Here, let me make it clearer for you. You said



> Originally Posted by john4200
> Which is quite an amazing and unusual thing for a person to do so quickly in such a situation, given natural biases, the complexity of the evidence, and the stress of finding a colleague's dead body. Which was my original point.


I disagree that it's an amazing and unusual thing for a person to do so quickly.

I disagree that the evidence is "complex".

I disagree that the "stress of finding the dead body" would result in Skye being unable to think clearly.

She's demonstrated the ability to think clearly and quickly under pressure in the past, why would you think she would be unable to do so at this juncture?

She saw Ward's blip on the screen. She saw Koenig's blip on the screen. She saw Koenig's dead body. She knew that May was no longer in the base, because May's blip wasn't on the screen. Whoever hid the body did so in such a way that they would have a reasonable expectation that if the body was found they would KNOW it was found. Since May wasn't in the building, Skye could rule her out as a suspect pretty much instantaneously - May would have had no reason to set up the scene that way, since she was gone and wouldn't have cared if anyone found the body.

The only LOGICAL answer is Ward. And you can get to that pretty quickly, even under stress.

Not rocket science.

So, which point did we all miss?

ETA - You sent your post to Ereth while I was composing mine. I didn't miss your point at all. I just completely disagree with the point you made. Not the same thing. And from reading everyone else's replies, I don't think they missed your point either, they just also completely disagree with you.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> So, which point did we all miss?


Most people got the point. It is only you and a few others who missed it, as demonstrated by arguing about the details of the evidence, rather than about the person and the stressful situation.

In your latest post, you seem to be considering making an argument that most people, in Skye's situation, having just freaked out over finding the blood-dripping dead body of a colleague, would have taken only a few seconds to review all the evidence in their head and immediately deduce that the murderer and traitor was the man who, a few minutes ago, they were kissing and telling that he was a good person.

But I did not see much support for such an assertion. You said that Ward was the logical answer. I obviously agree with a rational person concluding that Ward is the prime suspect, as I said as much in my original post. But I see no reason to believe that most people would be so rational, so quickly, in such a situation. In my experience, most people behave irrationally much of the time, even in ordinary circumstances, especially when it involves feelings about people. In stressful circumstances, most people behave even more irrationally. Skye behaved in a manner that was quite unusual for most people.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

john4200 said:


> 3) Many people do understand the simple point, which was clearly expressed, and they agree with it. So they have nothing to post.
> 
> I first wrote: "I was surprised that Skye did not think, even for a second, that the traitor might be Melinda. The evidence that it was Ward was quite persuasive, but I did not expect Skye to be so rational about it so quickly."
> 
> ...


Speaking of reading comprehension skills...

I didn't respond to your point. Not at all. I responded to your constant "yet another person who miss the point entirely" series of posts.

Arguing that the problem is MY reading comprehension is a complete and total misrepresentation of the facts in evidence. I didn't say one word about your position on the show, only that you seemed to have an awful lot of people who you claimed were missing your point. And instead of trying to make your point clearer, you simply started a tally.

I don't see anything in your response to me on that topic. Can you explain why?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smbaker said:


> 5) those who don't have you on ignore recognize the futility of arguing with you.


So, you are saying that you are incapable of recognizing futility that you assert many others have recognized? 

I had thought your more perceptive than that.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> And instead of trying to make your point clearer, you simply started a tally.
> 
> I don't see anything in your response to me on that topic. Can you explain why?


The point was already abundantly clear.

In a way that you are capable of understanding? Probably not.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

john4200 said:


> In a way that you are capable of understanding? Probably not.


So you admit that you did not respond to the point I made.

You accused me of a personal attack, yet when asked what personal attack that was, you avoided the question.

When asked to explain why you completely ignored the content of my post to you and posted something unrelated to what I was talking about, you chose to insult me rather than answer the question.

Is it any wonder so many people have you on ignore?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> So you admit that you did not respond to the point I made.


Wrong again.

And you make a personal attack on me, and then accuse me of insulting you? Incredible.

Is it any wonder so many people think you argue incessantly over nothing?


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Wrong again.


You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

john4200 said:


> So, you are saying that you are incapable of recognizing futility that you assert many others have recognized?
> 
> I had thought your more perceptive than that.


His what is more perceptive?

Your intellectual "high ground" has now been eroded. You're just a grammar-ignorant internet troll now.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

john4200 said:


> 3) Many people do understand the simple point, which was clearly expressed, and they agree with it. So they have nothing to post.


3) Those of us who have not weighed in on your point are NOT to be assumed to agree. Maybe we (including me) don't give a damn about it other than to watch the very entertaining argument that ensued.

You are counting those who have not posted about your point on your side. A very bad assumption.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

TonyD79 said:


> 3) Those of us who have not weighed in on your point are NOT to be assumed to agree. Maybe we (including me) don't give a damn about it other than to watch the very entertaining argument that ensued.
> 
> You are counting those who have not posted about your point on your side. A very bad assumption.


And you are not even aware of the huge assumption you just made. So sad.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoeyJoJo said:


> Your intellectual "high ground" has now been eroded. You're just a grammar-ignorant internet troll now.


And your post adds so much to the discussion of this episode. You are clearly the complete opposite of an ignorant troll.

Now what was it you wanted to discuss, again?


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

john4200 said:


> And your post adds so much to the discussion of this episode. You are clearly the complete opposite of an ignorant troll.
> 
> Now what was it you wanted to discuss, again?


Did you know that prostitution is legal in parts of Nevada?


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

*Checks the sign on the door*

Excuse me. I thought I was in a TV show discussion thread. I seem to have wandered into the kindergarten playpen!

*Leaves*


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

john4200 said:


> So, you are saying that you are incapable of recognizing futility that you assert many others have recognized?


Do you see me arguing with you? I merely pointed out the reasons why so few are engaging you.

I have no desire to debate you on whether or not Skye's actions are reasonable. I'll debate that with others, but it's pointless to debate it with you. The only winning move is not to play.



john4200 said:


> I had thought your more perceptive than that.


you're.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smbaker said:


> Do you see me arguing with you?
> 
> you're


Do you see what you are posting as not arguing?

Actually, it was meant to be "you"


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Do you see what you are posting as not arguing?


This post intentionally left blank.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

JoeyJoJo said:


> His what is more perceptive?
> 
> Your intellectual "high ground" has now been eroded. You're just a grammar-ignorant internet troll now.


_Now_?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoeyJoJo said:


> Did you know that prostitution is legal in parts of Nevada?


I am shocked -- shocked -- to find that prostitution is going on there.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Most people got the point. It is only you and a few others who missed it, as demonstrated by arguing about the details of the evidence, rather than about the person and the stressful situation.


Or maybe we just completely disagree with you.

It IS possible to have an opinion counter to yours and be capable of rational thought, hard as that seems to be for you to believe.



> In your latest post, you seem to be considering making an argument that most people, in Skye's situation, having just freaked out over finding the blood-dripping dead body of a colleague, would have taken only a few seconds to review all the evidence in their head and immediately deduce that the murderer and traitor was the man who, a few minutes ago, they were kissing and telling that he was a good person.


I did nothing of the sort. Your reading comprehension is clearly off. You should read what I wrote again and respond on point, rather than making things up.

I didn't "consider" making any argument about "most people".

I MADE an argument about SKYE'S reaction in Skye's situation.

She's already in a heightened state by dint of the fact that her entire world has been turned upside-down, yet again. She's running on adrenaline and lack of sleep and fear. She's in analytical mode as evidenced by her quick thinking on the satellites and hacking them. She's in her element.

No reason to think she'd turn into a quivering mass of jelly that wouldn't be capable of a reasonable conclusion in a very short span of time.



> But I did not see much support for such an assertion.


I can't help what you can't see. Your lack of sight does not indicate a blindness by someone else.



> You said that Ward was the logical answer. I obviously agree with a rational person concluding that Ward is the prime suspect, as I said as much in my original post. But I see no reason to believe that most people would be so rational, so quickly, in such a situation.


So? I see plenty of reason to believe that Skye (who is NOT "most people") would be so rational, so quickly, in exactly that situation.

In fact, we KNOW she was, because that's exactly the conclusion she came to. Q.E.D.



> In my experience, most people behave irrationally much of the time, even in ordinary circumstances, especially when it involves feelings about people. In stressful circumstances, most people behave even more irrationally. Skye behaved in a manner that was quite unusual for most people.


Skye is not most people, and we have no indication from her previous experiences that she would act like most people. I don't know why you keep insisting she should act the way you think she should act, and if she doesn't, well, clearly it's because the writers did it wrong, rather than you being unable to consider any other position.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> No reason to think she'd turn into a quivering mass of jelly that wouldn't be capable of a reasonable conclusion in a very short span of time.


No reason at all, except, you know, that she actually did end up shaking and sobbing on the floor in the bathroom.

Not to mention all the instances of poor judgment Skye has demonstrated in past episodes.


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> No reason at all, except, you know, that she actually did end up shaking and sobbing on the floor in the bathroom.


AFTER she realized the predicament she was in, and got to a place of relative safety where she could afford a few minutes of meltdown while she marshaled her strength. And she got it all out of her system in an amazingly short amount of time that "most people" in her situation wouldn't have been able to manage.

Then, on top of that, she was able to be collected enough to face the killer/traitor and act like nothing had happened in order to protect herself and the rest of the team.

"Most people" wouldn't have been able to do that, either.

So, no, I didn't miss your point. I just disagree with it and I believe that Skye acted absolutely within character and reasonably for the situation in which she found herself.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> 3) Maybe we (including me) don't give a damn about it other than to watch the very entertaining argument that ensued.


Yeah, I am going to have to disagree with the very entertaining part. Unless you find sticking needles in your eye socket entertaining.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> AFTER she realized the predicament she was in, and got to a place of relative safety where she could afford a few minutes of meltdown ...


She absolutely could not "afford" a few minutes of "meltdown". It is not at all rational to behave in that way. Her life was in danger. She needed to flee or to find weapons to fight with. She did neither. That is not logical. But many people would behave in such an irrational manner under the circumstances.


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> She absolutely could not "afford" a few minutes of "meltdown". It is not at all rational to behave in that way. Her life was in danger. She needed to flee or to find weapons to fight with. She did neither. That is not logical. But many people would behave in such an irrational manner under the circumstances.


Of course she could afford it. She knew exactly where Ward was, and he couldn't sneak up on her. She had to get it out of her system so she could move forward.

Where was she going to flee to in the middle of the Canadian wilderness? Fleeing would have been irrational. Ward would've tracked her down and killed her in no time.

Weapons? She's going to take up weapons against one the best trained agents they have, when her best weapon is her intelligence? That would be irrational.

Nope. What she did wasn't at all irrational. It was completely in keeping with her character and her experiences. It's quite obvious.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

You keep acting like she's a MAN. She's not. She's a woman. There are fundamental differences in how each gender reacts. You may not be aware but all of your complaints are that she didn't act as a man would have in the same situation. 

Women don't process data linearly as men do. They have far more connections in the brain processing data simultaneously, and this leads them to "intuitive" leaps that skip over logical progression steps that men follow (this often confuses men). 

Ward told her that Melinda was gone, and that Koenig was fine. She had no reason to doubt this information, so regardless of "what order" those two events actually occurred, in her mind, she, Ward and Koenig were now the only people in the secure facility.

Ward has blood on his neck. When it is discovered he acts strangely. It's not where any of his previous wounds were (and I guarantee you she knows where all of his hurts were. Women do that, it's normal to them). He doesn't allow her to treat it, even though he was ok with that earlier. This is odd, and there's not a woman on the planet who wouldn't immediately put that in the "that's strange..." bucket. It will percolate on one of the background channels, below conscious thought, but they have dozens of communication channels between the hemispheres of the brain and it won't go away.

She finds Koenig. He's bleeding. From above. Blood falls on her. She, Ward and Koenig were the only people in the building. Koenig is stored (in an admittedly stupid place) in a way where his blood would drop on anybody who might be near him. Ward had blood on his neck that surprised him and wouldn't let her see. Ergo, Ward. The "that's strange.." bucket moves to the forefront and clicks with the other data. She doesn't need to step through the sequence of events to come to a conclusion like you or I would. She's a woman. The data itself is sufficient. The clues have come bubbling up in her head, without names or words, to form an impression, a result that she probably can't actually explain how she arrived at right that second, but there it is. 

She sets a test. Ward fails the test. First, he knew the penny should be there. Second, he lied about Koenig. There's no doubt now.

So now what? What should she do?

Flee... into the snow where she is unprotected and will likely not survive? She doesn't have Melinda Mays survival skills. She would discount that immediately. She can't hide out in the building. Ward has superior training for exactly such a scenario.

Fight... Ward? Who trained her and is better than her in every possible combat scenario? Nonsense. She can't win. 

No, she does what women have always done when faced with that scenario. Be quiet, pretend nothing has happened, try not to arouse suspicion, await an opportunity. Women throughout history have known they can not win in a direct frontal assault on a man. This isn't news to any of them. Barring significant physical training which Skye does not have, it's a pointless exercise. All it will do is alert Ward to her suspicions and likely cause her pain. So she protects herself by pretending nothing is wrong. Make yourself small. Don't let him think of you as a threat. Try to avoid angering him. In many ways it's like having an abusive boyfriend/husband. 

This is perfectly rational and in character for a female character.

Or to put it another way - "Sure, let's go. Absolutely. Whatever you want. You've got to sleep sometime".


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> She knew exactly where Ward was, and he couldn't sneak up on her.


She did not know exactly where Ward was, because she was sobbing and shaking, not watching the screen.

Where was she going to flee? How about the same place Melinda went?

Of course she would need weapons to fight Ward. Do you think she can beat him hand to hand? And why do you assume she must "take up" weapons? In her situation, it would be smarter to find a weapon that could be deployed against him while she distracted or tricked him.

Either of those approaches is far more effective than sobbing in the bathroom. Any rational person would take action to protect themselves.

Only an irrational (or insane) person would think sobbing on the floor in the bathroom is a logical thing to do. But many people would become emotional and irrational under such circumstances, so such behavior is not surprising.


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

Ereth said:


> This is perfectly rational and in character for a female character.
> 
> Or to put it another way - "Sure, let's go. Absolutely. Whatever you want. You've got to sleep sometime".


:up:

Exactly. You get it!


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Or to put it another way - "Sure, let's go. Absolutely. Whatever you want. You've got to sleep sometime".


Also, she can covertly attempt to inform the rest of her team about Ward.

Running off into the wilderness or confronting Ward just leaves her captured, confined, and unable to act. Playing along with him leaves her a few opportunities.

The question is - does he know that she knows? I think he does.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> Women don't process data linearly as men do. They have far more connections in the brain processing data simultaneously, and this leads them to "intuitive" leaps that skip over logical progression steps that men follow (this often confuses men).


Do you have a woman's brain?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smbaker said:


> Running off into the wilderness or confronting Ward just leaves her captured, confined, and unable to act.


Actually, fleeing leaves her with Melinda. Disabling Ward leaves him captured, confined, and her in control. Sobbing in the bathroom wastes time.

As you say, Ward could have figured out she knows. In which case she will not get the chance to capture him in his sleep.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> She did not know exactly where Ward was, because she was sobbing and shaking, not watching the screen.


She had the screen. She knew when he was close by. He wasn't when she went into the bathroom. She had a few minutes to just react.

You have no clue how women think, clearly.



> Where was she going to flee? How about the same place Melinda went?


She has no idea where Melinda went. She doesn't even know if Melinda is still alive. She doesn't have Melinda's field skills. Fleeing would be irrational.



> Of course she would need weapons to fight Ward. Do you think she can beat him hand to hand?


It's easy to argue against points you make up out of whole cloth, isn't it?

I never said anything about her fighting him hand to hand.



> And why do you assume she must "take up" weapons? In her situation, it would be smarter to find a weapon that could be deployed against him while she distracted or tricked him.


Um, that's what "take up" weapons means. Your reading comprehension is still off. He's a trained, skilled fighter - one of the best. She's not. Going against him on her own is irrational and would be suicide.



> Either of those approaches is far more effective than sobbing in the bathroom. Any rational person would take action to protect themselves.


Exactly what she did. She got past her initial reaction, got it out of her system, and came up with a plan to protect herself.



> Only an irrational (or insane) person would think sobbing on the floor in the bathroom is a logical thing to do. But many people would become emotional and irrational under such circumstances, so such behavior is not surprising.


And yet you're surprised by it.

Her reactions are perfectly reasonable and logical to me, and they make sense. Ereth has it exactly right. You don't understand women.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Disabling Ward leaves him captured, confined, and her in control. Sobbing in the bathroom wastes time.


I think you either failed to read or failed to process Ereth's post.


----------



## FrodoB (Jan 3, 2005)

smbaker said:


> The only winning move is not to play.


I thought Captain America spoilers were off limits in these threads for now?


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

FrodoB said:


> I thought Captain America spoilers were off limits in these threads for now?


I was intending to spoil WarGames.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smbaker said:


> I think you either failed to read or failed to process Ereth's post.


I think you failed to consider other possibilities.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Actually, fleeing leaves her with Melinda.


How.

When she discovered the body, where was Melinda? How long had Melinda been gone? How long did SKYE know Melinda was gone? When she was in the bathroom, where was Melinda? Do you know? If you don't know, how on earth would SHE know? She has no idea which direction Melinda went, or where her ultimate destination was.

You're not thinking rationally.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I think you failed to consider other possibilities.


I considered them, but in this case Ereth is simply right.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> I think you failed to consider other possibilities.


No, the only one who appears to have failed to consider other possibilities is you.

You've made up your mind that whatever you think is the only logical thing to think, and anyone who disagrees with you is simply not seeing things correctly.

When was the last time YOU considered other possibilities?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> Um, that's what "take up" weapons means. Your reading comprehension is still off. He's a trained, skilled fighter - one of the best. She's not. Going against him on her own is irrational and would be suicide.


Your logical thinking is still off. A rational person can think of a number of weapons that can be used without "taking them up". Sobbing in the bathroom when someone is possibly going to kill you in a few minutes is irrational and could be suicide. Searching for weapons to protect oneself or take out the opponent is rational and would be smart.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> When was the last time YOU considered other possibilities?


During the writing of my last post.

Each person is entitled to their own opinion. But each person is not entitled to their own logic. Logic is absolute. That is what we were discussing.

There is no logic where sitting in a bathroom and sobbing is logical. It is emotional and irrational.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Your logical thinking is still off. A rational person can think of a number of weapons that can be used without "taking them up".


What does 'taking up weapons' mean to you? Because you're clearly not understanding them in context.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

john4200 said:


> And you are not even aware of the huge assumption you just made. So sad.


No assumption. Reading exactly what you wrote.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> How long had Melinda been gone? How long did SKYE know Melinda was gone? When she was in the bathroom, where was Melinda? Do you know? If you don't know, how on earth would SHE know?


You failed to consider Ereth's female brain.

Skye's female brain would obviously know the answer to those questions in the same way she instantly knew that Ward was the killer and traitor, not Melinda.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

TonyD79 said:


> No assumption.


Yes, WE ALL know that you are not aware of the huge assumption you made in that post.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Azlen said:


> Yeah, I am going to have to disagree with the very entertaining part. Unless you find sticking needles in your eye socket entertaining.


Doesn't everyone? If they don't say they don't, then they must.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> What does 'taking up weapons' mean to you? Because you're clearly not understanding them in context.


You have failed to consider other possibilities.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Reminds me of the lecture we got on what constitutes "reasonable" in another thread. And whom gave that lecture.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Reminds me of the lecture we got on what constitutes "reasonable" in another thread. And whom gave that lecture.


Reminds me of the confused post #14 in this thread that started the whole debate. And whom made that post.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> You failed to consider Ereth's female brain.
> 
> Skye's female brain would obviously know the answer to those questions in the same way she instantly knew that Ward was the killer and traitor, not Melinda.


It's probably easier if you just admit you have no clue. But in case you don't get it, let me spell it out for you.

She wouldn't know the answer to those questions, she didn't have the information.

She knew Ward was the killer because she had all the information she needed to figure it out.

You're welcome.


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> You have failed to consider other possibilities.


That's true. It's possible that you just don't understand the term at all, and context doesn't help you. I didn't consider that possibility.

Or it could be that you're just being deliberately intractable. I didn't consider that, either.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Do you have a woman's brain?


Yes. I keep it in a jar by the living room door to frighten solicitors. 

Actually, what I have access to is scientific studies comparing male and female brains, and psychological studies comparing male and female cognitive processing. Oh, and conversations with actual females.

What I have is a huge number of years trying to figure out, as a writer, how to understand women well enough to write them. I am not ashamed to say that this is a particularly difficult task, because I'm a man and men and women process data differently.

There was a rather surprising find, god, almost two decades ago now, by a researcher dissecting male and female brains in an effort to understand gay people, and the discovery of multiple communication channels came from that. She also discovered, surprisingly enough, that gay men have more communication channels than straight men, though not as many as women. This turned out to not be causal, but led to further research and the understanding of how men and women process data differently.

A woman's brain has many many communication threads going at once. It's why they multitask so well. They have lots of thought threads going on at once, often completely unrelated. They can't turn them off. They have difficulty understanding why we can.

Men have a single much larger channel between the two hemispheres. There's some tiny ancillary ones, but generally traffic goes down this one giant pipe. This makes it much easer for a man to cut everything out except the one thing he's concentrating on. Ever been so into something that people can be talking to you and you simply don't hear them? That's because the thread from the hearing portion of your brain can't get through, the channel is occupied. It's also why it's so easy to forget to stop and get milk on the way home when you are thinking really hard about whatever problem you are trying to solve. The little reminder thread goes off but the communication doesn't happen. That one channel is busy.

There's some thinking that this might help explain why men are generally better at math and spacial concepts, but that line of thinking is still in early days and we don't yet know for sure.

So, no, I don't have a woman's brain. But Jobeth does. And she agrees with me, so my effort to reconstruct through linear thinking arrived at the same place she arrived through parallel processing. I'm grateful for her corroboration of my line of thought. I have only book knowledge on the topic, not the empirical data that she has.


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

Ereth said:


> So, no, I don't have a woman's brain. But Jobeth does. And she agrees with me, so my effort to reconstruct through linear thinking arrived at the same place she arrived through parallel processing. I'm grateful for her corroboration of my line of thought. I have only book knowledge on the topic, not the empirical data that she has.


You know I love you, right?


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Did she even know there was a traitor before Melinda left, Skye saw Ward & Eric's radar blips in the Death Closet, and then found Eric dead there?
> 
> I don't think there was ever any room for reasonable doubt...unless I'm not remembering it right, she found out there was a traitor when she found out that Ward had killed Eric.


This is all your fault.

Please be less confused next time.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> She wouldn't know the answer to those questions, she didn't have the information.


Wrong again. She had the information, or could obtain it. That would be a more logical use of her time than sobbing in the bathroom.

You apparently have a limited capability at comprehending the use of weapons. Perhaps it is a limitation of the female brain. That could explain why Skye behaved so irrationally.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

smbaker said:


> This is all your fault.
> 
> Please be less confused next time.


This is so funny. I can't stop laughing. Thank you so much!


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smbaker said:


> This is all your fault.
> 
> Please be less confused next time.


But then we would not have this entertaining debate.


----------



## Dirk Legume (Nov 29, 2004)

Hey, remember that show "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D? Boy, that's some show huh?


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Wrong again. She had the information, or could obtain it. That would be a more logical use of her time than sobbing in the bathroom.


Yeah, you'll have to explain to me how the 60-90 seconds she spent sobbing in the bathroom could have been used differently to confirm where Melinda was and how to get to her easily and safely. Oh, and without tipping off Ward that she was looking for Melinda.



> You apparently have a limited capability at comprehending the use of weapons. Perhaps it is a limitation of the female brain.


You have failed to consider other possibilities.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> Yeah, you'll have to explain to me how the 60-90 seconds she spent sobbing in the bathroom could have been used differently to confirm where Melinda was and how to get to her easily and safely.


No need to explain. The female brain should be able to instantly put together everything that has been discussed here (and happened on the show) and figure out the answer.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> You have failed to consider other possibilities.


Another possibility is that it is just a limitation of your brain.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

JoBeth66 said:


> You know I love you, right?


Right back atcha. I've missed you. It's been a long time since we've been on the same side of one of these. It's a pleasure to watch you work.


----------



## FrodoB (Jan 3, 2005)

smbaker said:


> I was intending to spoil WarGames.


Of course. And there's a WarGames joke in Winter Soldier. Hence the wink.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

FrodoB said:


> And there's a WarGames joke in Winter Soldier. Hence the wink.


Ah, I have not seen it yet! 

(what can I say, I'm easily confused... )



JoBeth66 said:


> Yeah, you'll have to explain to me how the 60-90 seconds she spent sobbing in the bathroom could have been used differently to confirm where Melinda was and how to get to her easily and safely.


My observations as a man:

1) Women always go to the restroom together.

2) Skye went to the restroom.

3) There is only one other woman in the vicinity of the SHIELD base, Melinda May.

4) ergo, Skye was waiting for May to arrive in the restroom.

Perfectly logical course of action.


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> No need to explain. The female brain should be able to instantly put together everything that has been discussed here (and happened on the show) and figure out the answer.


I've just considered a new possibility, one that makes complete and total sense.

THIS is how you admit you were wrong. You're unable to actually say "you know, you have a valid point" to someone else, so you give them props by using one of their points in what amounts to a non-sequitur.

Got it.


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Another possibility is that it is just a limitation of your brain.


Or yours.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Since S.H.I.E.L.D is a terrorist organization now, and the Government is going to need some sort of intelligence/security agency, do you think we'll get H.A.M.M.E.R. next?


Perhaps we'll go from "Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement, and Logistics Division" to "Strategic Hazard Intervention Espionage Logistics Directorate".

Or to "Supreme Headquarters, International Espionage, Law-Enforcement Division".

Although I suppose we could go to "United Network Command for Law and Enforcement".


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Right back atcha. I've missed you. It's been a long time since we've been on the same side of one of these. It's a pleasure to watch you work.


 Ditto.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

I'm honestly curious about who will get the last word in this argument. 

My money is not on Ereth or JoBeth66.


----------



## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

Only 5 more days until a new episode...


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

martinp13 said:


> Only 5 more days until a new episode...


That's not sufficient to stop it.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Perhaps we'll go from "Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement, and Logistics Division" to "Strategic Hazard Intervention Espionage Logistics Directorate".
> 
> Or to "Supreme Headquarters, International Espionage, Law-Enforcement Division".
> 
> Although I suppose we could go to "United Network Command for Law and Enforcement".


I suppose as long as we don't end up with CONTROL we'll be fine.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> You're unable to actually say "you know, you have a valid point" to someone else, so you give them props by using one of their points in what amounts to a non-sequitur.


Sure, you have a valid point. It should not be surprising that Skye is capable of making quick and correct logical deductions under extremely stressful circumstances, and she would never turn into an emotional quivering mass of jelly. Another valid point you made is that when she turned into a quivering mass of jelly that she was too logical to turn into, it was actually logical for her to do so, since there was nothing else she could have done to protect herself. Yet another valid point you made is that Skye could never have used the base's tracking and surveillance systems, as well as the NSA satellites, to figure out where Melinda went. That is clearly outside of Skye's capabilities, which seem to consist of making snap logical deductions and turning into a quivering mass of jelly. If only Skye could find something that could be used as a weapon to trap Ward. But you made a valid point that Skye is too inept to ever trap Ward. Skye's past experience helping to capture all sorts of powerful bad guys would never work against Ward, since Skye is just a quivering mass of jelly compared to Ward's awesomeness. Valid point. Props!


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Sure, you have a valid point. It should not be surprising that Skye is capable of making quick and correct logical deductions under extremely stressful circumstances, and she would never turn into an emotional quivering mass of jelly. Another valid point you made is that when she turned into a quivering mass of jelly that she was too logical to turn into, it was actually logical for her to do so, since there was nothing else she could have done to protect herself. Yet another valid point you made is that Skye could never have used the base's tracking and surveillance systems, as well as the NSA satellites, to figure out where Melinda went. That is clearly outside of Skye's capabilities, which seem to consist of making snap logical deductions and turning into a quivering mass of jelly. If only Skye could find something that could be used as a weapon to trap Ward. But you made a valid point that Skye is too inept to ever trap Ward. Skye's past experience helping to capture all sorts of powerful bad guys would never work against Ward, since Skye is just a quivering mass of jelly compared to Ward's awesomeness. Valid point. Props!


Runnin' out of straw, yet?


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

You know, this might be the finest piece of performance art since the great JM J Bullock thread.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JoBeth66 said:


> Runnin' out of straw, yet?


Straw man's runnin' out to the Wizard to get a brain (female, preferably).


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

Ereth said:


> You know, this might be the finest piece of performance art since the great JM J Bullock thread.


That was an awesome thread.


----------



## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

JoBeth66 said:


> That was an awesome thread.


Unlike this one.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Ereth said:


> You know, this might be the finest piece of performance art since the great JM J Bullock thread.


link?


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

smbaker said:


> link?


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=120936

Whatever happened to RHuntingtons "Guide to Good Thread" anyway? Do we just not have those kinds of threads any more?


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

john4200 said:


> I first wrote: "I was surprised that Skye did not think, even for a second, that the traitor might be Melinda. The evidence that it was Ward was quite persuasive, but I did not expect Skye to be so rational about it so quickly."


She had a penny dropped moment.

Ward had already been talking about the hard drive, talked about "us", had kissed her and he didn't have a wound on his neck so he couldn't have opened it.

And Melinda left a one way exit track in the snow. Previous tracks had been negated by the falling snow.

But what I want to know is - exactly how did Skye leave a message for the team in the bathroom?


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I am shocked -- shocked -- to find that prostitution is going on there.


You missed my point.


----------



## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Silverman said:


> May seems so familiar, what other shows was that actress in? I felt like I knew her when I first saw her.


She was in Stargate:Universe and also Eureka.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

And if you're thinking of her in a non sci-fi way, she was in 5+ seasons of E.R. She also has shown up in lots of other regular shows (5 episodes of Two and a Half Men), etc...


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Gerryex said:


> Anyone else taken aback when May leaves the secret outpost and just walks out the door. The next time we see her she is walking on a highway with no snow to meet her mom. Did May walk all that way? Wow, she is a fast walker and has great endurance!!!
> 
> Gerry


Well, we all know that Ontario is in Canada, and Canada is right up there in the Arctic.

P.S. Had to put the AC on tonight, even though it was -7 this morning (that's 19 in foreign heat).


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Sure, you have a valid point. It should not be surprising that Skye is capable of making quick and correct logical deductions under extremely stressful circumstances, and she would never turn into an emotional quivering mass of jelly. Another valid point you made is that when she turned into a quivering mass of jelly that she was too logical to turn into, it was actually logical for her to do so, since there was nothing else she could have done to protect herself.


It is possible, you know, for humans to be both logical and emotional. It is perfectly reasonable for Skye to have realized where the overwhelming evidence pointed while at the same time being extremely upset by that revelation.

Just because she kissed Ward a couple of times doesn't mean she was so madly in love with him that she would ignore all of the signs that pointed to him.

When Ward told her that the reason he didn't originally accept her offer to talk was because he was afraid of his feelings for her, she responded, "I was just offering to talk, not have sex with you."

In this very episode, she told Ward that the only reason she kissed him was because they had a "97% chance of dying". That doesn't sound like someone so blinded by love that nothing short of seeing Ward kill Koenig in person would have convinced her that he was guilty.

While she had shown some interest in Ward, she had been extremely pragmatic about their potential relationship.

The evidence pointing to Ward was so overwhelming that as hard as it was for her to accept, she couldn't deny where everything pointed. She didn't need to go through some complex analysis to have the initial gut reaction that Ward was most likely responsible.

Nonetheless, she still took it upon herself to confirm not once, but twice, that Ward was Hydra. Until that point, she was not 100% certain. And that, by definition, means she was still open to the possibility that May was the Hydra agent.

But there is a difference between being open to a possibility and irrationally blaming. Skye has never been shown to be one who irrationally blames people for things. The fact that she had had disagreements with May in the past would not have clouded her judgment any more than the couple of kisses she had with Ward.

It is a big leap to go from being upset at a betrayal to irrationally blaming others. Just because both of those are based in emotion does not automatically mean a person in one state will also be in the other. People are not either 100% logical or 100% emotional beings; they are some mix of the two.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Maybe we need to have two threads for each SHIELD episode, the john4200 version, and the other one without john4200 where we can actually talk about the episode. 

Or y'all could just stop taking the troll bait!


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

alpacaboy said:


> Way longer ago, she was on "The Single Guy" with Jonathan Silverman.
> (I also saw her on ER, but I still think of her as from "The Single Guy" because that's where I first saw her.)


Actually, you're both right.

I didn't go check the dates, but she was on the *first* season or two of "er", and had an entertaining rivalry with Noah Wyle's character (John Carter). She left for at least several seasons (and did "The Single Guy").. then came BACK to "er" for many more seasons.. (I don't know if she lasted all the way through the end.. Ironically, even though "er" is one of my favorite shows of all time, I have a couple of seasons near the end unwatched -- back then I only had 1 or 2 tuners, and Tivos *couldn't* deal with "er"s annoying scheduling + padding properly, so at some point I chose to keep recording the 9pm show and I'd "get back" to er at some point. I still intend to, hopefully when Amazon has a full series set at some ridiculously low price.. $10-20/season aggregated.)

I thought it was very interesting to see 'root' from "Person of Interest" on this show. Wow, she can act! Somewhat joking, but she was totally different than her root character. Even when the root character pretends to show emotion or something to get her way.


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## Silverman (Jan 18, 2013)

Thanks all, I don't recall May on ER but I am quite sure now it was Eureka that I recall her so well in.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

mattack said:


> I thought it was very interesting to see 'root' from "Person of Interest" on this show. Wow, she can act! Somewhat joking, but she was totally different than her root character. Even when the root character pretends to show emotion or something to get her way.


Check her out in Joss Whedon's "Much Ado About Nothing," or her role as Fred/Illyria on "Angel."


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

LoadStar said:


> ... or her role as Fred/Illyria on "Angel."


"A Hole in the World" is still one of the most incredible, heart breaking, and often overlooked TV episodes of all time.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

LoadStar said:


> Check her out in Joss Whedon's "Much Ado About Nothing," or her role as Fred/Illyria on "Angel."


*sniff*


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

john4200 said:


> She absolutely could not "afford" a few minutes of "meltdown". It is not at all rational to behave in that way. Her life was in danger. *She needed to flee or to find weapons to fight with.* She did neither. That is not logical. But many people would behave in such an irrational manner under the circumstances.


As long as he doesn't know that she knows, she's safe, because he needs her alive and well and in a certain location to de-crypt that hard drive (which apparently has a built-in, non-defeatable, GPS).

This way she gets to keep tabs on him.

But yeah, she should have climbed up there to see if he had a gun or something else worth "commandeering" .


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

pgogborn said:


> _*She had a penny dropped moment.*_
> Ward had already been talking about the hard drive, talked about "us", had kissed her and he didn't have a wound on his neck so he couldn't have opened it.
> 
> And Melinda left a one way exit track in the snow. Previous tracks had been negated by the falling snow.
> ...


I see what you did there.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

john4200 said:


> She absolutely could not "afford" a few minutes of "meltdown". It is not at all rational to behave in that way. Her life was in danger. *She needed to flee or to find weapons to fight with. She did neither. That is not logical.*


Wrong.

And if you had chosen the fight or flee option you would deserve a pink slip for cowardice, incompetence and a narrow minded faliure of logic.

What she needs to do is to leave a note for the rest of the team and then attach herself to Ward to identify people higher up in the HYDRA organisation than Ward.

What would be outstanding is if she held on to her lanyard and Fitz Simmons could find a way to track it at long range.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

pgogborn said:


> Wrong.


Sorry, you are the wrong one. We all are. Only the all-mighty seer and master of the truth is ever correct.

There, I just saved you from a lot of pointless arguing.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

eddyj said:


> Sorry, you are the wrong one. We all are.


Don't feel bad, we all just fail at television comprehension. We constantly misunderstand things. It's only natural that given our poor skills we come to the wrong conclusions, time and time again.

I don't even know why we own televisions.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

pgogborn said:


> Wrong. And if you had chosen the fight or flee option you would deserve a pink slip for cowardice, incompetence and a narrow minded faliure of logic. What she needs to do is to leave a note for the rest of the team and then attach herself to Ward to identify people higher up in the HYDRA organisation than Ward. What would be outstanding is if she held on to her lanyard and Fitz Simmons could find a way to track it at long range.


If she chose to fight, she'd probably be dead. That's logic for you.

The funniest part is that the purveyor of this logic is using fight or flight which is an instinctive choice, not a logical one.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> If she chose to fight, she'd probably be dead.


Ward needed her alive, so she wouldn't have wound up dead. She didn't know that though.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

eddyj said:


> Sorry, you are the wrong one. We all are. Only the all-mighty seer and master of the truth is ever correct.


But if you say that, you must be wrong as well.


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## mbhuff (Jan 25, 2004)

jehma said:


> *sniff*


I can't believe it's coming up on the 10th anniversary of Angel's last episode next month.

The scene between Wesley and Illyria/Fred is one of my favorite scene's in the Buffyverse.



> ILLYRIA
> Wesley.
> (inspects his wound)
> This wound is mortal.
> ...


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I just watched this episode, and came to this thread, seeing 7 pages, and thought the discussion was good. My mistake. Let's see if putting john4200 on ignore helps in the future.


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## kettledrum (Nov 17, 2003)

Ereth said:


> You keep acting like she's a MAN. She's not. She's a woman. There are fundamental differences in how each gender reacts. You may not be aware but all of your complaints are that she didn't act as a man would have in the same situation.
> 
> Women don't process data linearly as men do. They have far more connections in the brain processing data simultaneously, and this leads them to "intuitive" leaps that skip over logical progression steps that men follow (this often confuses men).
> 
> ...


I am months late to the party. I had to skim a lot of this thread for obvious reasons, but this is brilliant right here, along with Ereth's other post about the differences in make and female brains.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

kettledrum said:


> I am months late to the party. I had to skim a lot of this thread for obvious reasons, but this is brilliant right here, along with Ereth's other post about the differences in make and female brains.


Google "girl with nail in head" for a video that also illustrates the different approaches to problems often taken.

The only reason to skim this thread, btw, is to avoid spoilers if you haven't seen the episode yet.

There is no other excuse which justifies your denying yourself the wit and wisdom of your fellow TCF'ers.


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