# How do learning remotes work?



## _annie_ (May 13, 2007)

Hi again..

I need to buy a learning remote with macro function to get around the Homechoice timeout issue with TiVo. I don't know much about this, so I'm hoping you can tell me everything you know about learning remotes 

Do I just look for a remote than can be programmed using a macro function?
How will I know the remote can 'learn' from my Homechoice remote?

This is not strictly TiVo as I don't intend to use the remote with TiVo, I love the peanut 

I was looking at eBay and saw auction 270120735671 - now that is a cool remote but a little OTT  What about 180117008406 ? Its cheap and all I need it to do is send a volume signal to the Homechoice box every couple of hours to prevent it timing out and affecting TiVo.

Any thoughts are appreciated 

Annie


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

It appears you need a remote that can keep sending the signal every couple of hours unattended. So you need one that can work unattended on a timed basis rather than just learning things but needing a human operator to run them and push the button each time.

Unfortunately I don't have any experience with these learning remotes or Homechoice so can't help you further.

You might want to kickstart the old Tivocoommunity thread that discussed this issue about the 6 hour timeout and the learning remote in the hope that one of the small number of other Tivo using Homechoice box owners (several of whom subscribed to that thread) will contribute.

I am sure that the UK's top Tivo devotee Cyril (who owns no less than 5 Tivos setup with Freeview boxes and with one HomeChoice box) should know the answers to your questions.


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## _annie_ (May 13, 2007)

Pete77 said:


> It appears you need a remote that can keep sending the signal every couple of hours unattended. So you need one that can work unattended on a timed basis rather than just learning things but needing a human operator to run them and push the button each time.


That's true, you're right. I am going to need to look for a learning + timed remote. I didn't think of that.



> Unfortunately I don't have any experience with these learning remotes or Homechoice so can't help you further.


S'alright, you've answered loads of my questions in the other thread 



> You might want to kickstart the old Tivocoommunity thread that discussed this issue about the 6 hour timeout and the learning remote in the hope that one of the small number of other Tivo using Homechoice box owners (several of whom subscribed to that thread) will contribute.


Good point. I will see what I can dig up.



> I am sure that the UK's top Tivo devotee Cyril (who owns no less than 5 Tivos setup with Freeview boxes and with one HomeChoice box) should know the answers to your questions.


It was Cyril who convinced me that Homechoice + TiVo was gunna work. I had already suspected, but he posted "there's NO better solution than Homechoice and TiVo" or words to that affect. Convinced me it was worth a try (and it is!).


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Further research shows that you want to use code 20066 under manufacturer Homechoice and Medium to get reliable channel changing with your IR leads.

These two threads are also useful:-

www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=302829

www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=331483

But nobody seems to have come up with a workaround for the timeout problem other than the learning remote that can operate itself periodically.

This seems almost to be a form of bloody mindedness by Homechoice to force you to buy their own PVR (when it comes out) as clearly it would be easy for them to make the 6 hour turn off to standby setting user controllable in the box menus.

I wonder if anyone has tried emailing their managing director about the 6 hour timeout problem and bypassing customer services. Sometimes that can help get a longrunning problem fixed.


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## manolan (Feb 13, 2001)

_annie_ said:


> Hi again..
> 
> I need to buy a learning remote with macro function to get around the Homechoice timeout issue with TiVo. I don't know much about this, so I'm hoping you can tell me everything you know about learning remotes
> 
> ...


The Philips one would certainly do what you want but was, as you thought, complete overkill. I don't know whether the Kameleon would do it.

What you need, is not only a macro function, but a timer as well.

An older model Philips Pronto should do exactly what you need (such as item 270122027055) - or do a search for RU890. There are other models that might do what you need, but I can't remember whether the newer ones have a timer or not.

Incidentally, the RU prefix indicates a European model and the TSU prefix indicates North American (I think TSU2000 is the NA equiv of the RU890). This shouldn't really affect you, but as you're not planning to get into the whole subject of Prontos, I would think the European version would make things easier overall.

You can get info on these from www.remotecentral.com, which is one of the best resources on the net for programmable remotes.

(edit: The TSU1000 was the equiv of the RU890. You can get more info here -> http://www.pronto.philips.com/index.cfm?id=886)


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## martink0646 (Feb 8, 2005)

Hi Annie,

I run a Philips Pronto & a timer is integral in the set up of any Macro. On the Pronto, when you program a macro you basically just list the commands. There is a feature to add a time delay between each item. Here's example of my start up macro;

TV On
Video (AV)
Video (AV)
Amp On
VDP (input)

Run like this with no delays the macro would fail because it takes a certain amount of time for the TV to turn on & for each command to be accepted. The remote will just bang through those commands in under a second & fail unless you do the following;

TV On
Delay 2secs
Video (AV)
Delay 2secs
Video (AV)
Delay 2secs
Amp On
Delay 2secs
VDP (input)

Theoretically, you could set the macro to run through your pin then have a delay, run through your pin, have a delay etc. I see two possible issues. Firstly, I have no idea without a play around how long the max possible delay time is. It could be quite short. The second issue is a power one. Constantly running through macros would zap the battery. You would have to see if it will run macros whilst in the cradle. There shouldn't be a problem with repeating this a lot of times though as I think each macro can accept up to 255 commands. (I'm sure an expert could confirm or deny this) Although this all seems a bit Heath Robinson, it might work.

On a related matter, I have had my Pronto for about 6 years now & aside from the well known 'cradle-fuse-charging' issue I have had no problems. I do find though that I only ever use it really to power up/down my system. Despite heavily customised menus that took me months to hone, I prefer using multiple remotes as does my wife who has had a downer on it ever since she found out I paid £800 for it. This echoes your comment about the TiVo remote which I believe to be the best designed remote I have ever used.

I am thinking of selling the Pronto so if you wanted to PM me we could maybe discuss it.

Martin


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

If your Tivo is network enabled (or serial PPP enabled) you could get TiVo to send something every 'x' hours via sendkey.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ColinYounger said:


> If your Tivo is network enabled (or serial PPP enabled) you could get TiVo to send something every 'x' hours via sendkey.


Annie's Tivo is not network enabled but perhaps this is a reason for her to make it so if you could knock up the required script for her Colin and explain how to install it.

After all she would save the cost and unsightliness of buying a Pronto and then leaving it strapped down somewhere the Tivo or her Homechoice will periodically receive the timed and programmed IR command.

Snag is I think only a channel change command would stop the Homechoice going in to Standby though. And that won't work when a recording is happening or if it does will mess up the recording.


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Annie's Tivo is not network enabled


Doesn't need to be - you can connect to your TiVo via a serial link. But it's way too painful for a noob - trust me. 


Pete77 said:


> Snag is I think only a channel change command would stop the Homechoice going in to Standby though. And that won't work when a recording is happening or if it does will mess up the recording.


Which will be different from using a remote control to send the 'command' how?

My point is that you don't need a new remote if you can 'hack' your TiVo. You can use sendkey instead, which means that TiVo sends the command to the STB instead of a remote. But if the only way to stop the standby is to change channels, any 'automated' solution is doomed.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Enable auto-recording of suggestions on your TiVo 

That way the TiVo itself will change channels to record suggestions in-between scheduled recordings and hopefully prevent the STB going into standby during periods of what would otherwise have been inactivity.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ColinYounger said:


> Which will be different from using a remote control to send the 'command' how?


The learning remote could be set to say bring up the on screen Info banner directly on the Homechoice box and then make it go away again, which I imagine would be enough to keep it awake.

Whereas if you use SendKey in Tivo you can only use commands the Tivo sends to the Homechoice box. This is basically only channel numbers and the Enter key.

Changing channels on the Homechoice box will be rather disastrous for recordings in progress compared to just making the EPG appear and disappear.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> Enable auto-recording of suggestions on your TiVo .


Doesn't work overnight in particular (when Suggestions frequently won't record for more than 6 hours) or when your Tivo is nearly full up and there is no space left for Suggestions to record.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Neither of my TiVos is ever quiescent for more than a couple of hours at most. 

And if your drive is full, get a bigger one :up:


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> Neither of my TiVos is ever quiescent for more than a couple of hours at most.


In the day time but at night time it will be.

It only needs one 6 hour period of inactivity for the HomeChoice box to shut off.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> In the day time but at night time it will be.


Sorry, but as I said, neither of my TiVos is ever sitting around doing nothing for that long, even at night.

You obviously don't have enough Advanced Wishlists setup on yours yet


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> Sorry, but as I said, neither of my TiVos is ever sitting around doing nothing for that long, even at night.
> 
> You obviously don't have enough Advanced Wishlists setup on yours yet


When do you ever find time to watch it all?

Especially given how much time you also spend on here and on upgrading Tivos too.


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## _annie_ (May 13, 2007)

Blimey.. you go away for one day...  

I can see the push for networking + hard drive upgrade.. I know I know! Next month mebbe.

I read in some other forum that a volume signal (up or down) is enough to wake HomeChoice up and clear any menus. Luckily for me I had some wishlist stuff accidentally record last night in the wee small hours, so when I got up this morning the HC box still hadn't timed out. A result, but not reliable.

I'm going to check out all the remote madness in this thread and report back.

Thank you to everyone who contributed! :up: :up:


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

IIRC my Pronto can use it's internal clock to fire commands at preset times, not just the standard delay, at a specific times. They seem to go for peanuts on the bay - if you can get one with the docking stand and shot batteries then you could just leave it plugged in near tivo. The IR output on them is phenomenal and will work from almost any angle including 180 away from my equipment.

You could see if it's possible to get the 'no red dot' Sky solution adapted to send a harmless homechoice command, but you would need to pull the drive to install it and a network card would make it much easier to fiddle with it to get it working.

Cheap but potentially irritating solutions...
Programme repeat manual recordings for the shortest possible time every 5 1/2 hours on a 24 hour channel (i.e. BBC News 24) and keep them at the bottom of your season pass list so anything but suggestions will override them. Not sure if you can use Keep at most 1 options this way but it will keep the Homechoice box awake. You might be able to cut this to 2 or 3 recordings a day at the beginning of prime time if the box will wake from a channel command and stay awake for another 6 hours.

A lowest priority season pass for BBC News on BBC News 24 with keep at most 1 will schedule a recording very regularly. You'll just need to work to keep it at the bottom of the season pass list when you add new things.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

AMc said:


> A lowest priority season pass for BBC News on BBC News 24 with keep at most 1 will schedule a recording very regularly. You'll just need to work to keep it at the bottom of the season pass list when you add new things.


Yes a good simple no cost suggestion AMc but as you rightly say the SP will tend to try to creep up the list and therefore take priority over a recording for an SP for a program you actually wanted.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

_annie_ said:


> Luckily for me I had some wishlist stuff accidentally record last night in the wee small hours, so when I got up this morning the HC box still hadn't timed out. A result, but not reliable.


Have you enabled suggestions? That will cause a few extra recordings...

Alternatively a lowest priority category-only wishlist for "news" with a KAM value of 1 (similar to the Season pass idea suggested by AMc) should ensure that you get a new recording pretty much on the hour 24x7 when nothing else is being recorded - and a wishlist will pick up news on different channels too, ensuring a channel switch in most cases.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

I changed from Homechoice to 2 Sky HD boxes controlled by TiVos last year.

The cheapest timed macro remote control available at the time was the Cambridge M500, which is sold under 4 different names for about £25.
Takes a while to program and is quite limited.

A pronto or mx-950 would be a more reliable, versatile and easier solution.

Disadvantage with remotes is that unless they are RF you will have to leave it pointing at your Homechoice box.

The neatest and most reliable solution would be the serial extension mod, as long as you can find a friendly geek to install it.

Don't forget to use TiVo to record all those channels that Homechoice give away free each month 


You can still be scuppered by the Homechoice box crashing or requiring a system update and new PIN requests. Luckily this doesn't happen too frequently (at least maybe 3 or 4 times in the year I had HC).


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cyril said:


> I changed from Homechoice to 2 Sky HD boxes controlled by TiVos last year.


Cyril,

Its good to hear from you, although I'm sure that Annie would also really appreciate your input regarding controlling a Homechoice box and how you used to stop it from going to sleep?

Has the new TopUpTv product (which alleges to do Series Link on Freeview programs) taken your fancy at all so far, given that you are a man who always likes to stay at the cutting edge of new technology.


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## steford (Oct 9, 2002)

Recording Takeshi's Castle will pretty much keep your Tivo going 24/7. I have "Japan" in my wishlists and so, when nothing of higher priority is on, I get Takeshi's Castle. 3 Thumb Downs doesn't make it stop - ever!


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## _annie_ (May 13, 2007)

Pete77 said:


> Cyril,
> 
> Its good to hear from you, although I'm sure that Annie would also really appreciate your input regarding controlling a Homechoice box and how you used to stop it from going to sleep?
> 
> Has the new TopUpTv product (which alleges to do Series Link on Freeview programs) taken your fancy at all so far, given that you are a man who always likes to stay at the cutting edge of new technology.


So far, scheduling 5 minute season passes (ranked lowest of course) at odd times like 3am, 2pm etc seem to be doing the trick. if it ends up not working i'll go down the learning remote path I think.


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## _annie_ (May 13, 2007)

steford said:


> Recording Takeshi's Castle will pretty much keep your Tivo going 24/7. I have "Japan" in my wishlists and so, when nothing of higher priority is on, I get Takeshi's Castle. 3 Thumb Downs doesn't make it stop - ever!


Hahahah.. someone is trying to hint that you'd really REALLY like this program if you gave it a chance


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

_annie_ said:


> So far, scheduling 5 minute season passes (ranked lowest of course) at odd times like 3am, 2pm etc seem to be doing the trick. if it ends up not working i'll go down the learning remote path I think.


An SP for an hourly program on say both BBC News 24 and Sky News with a setting of Keep At Most 1 and Space Needed at the bottom of the SP list ought to work. But I suggest an SP for each channel in case the BBC suddenly change the name of their hourly news show and thereby cancel the SP in one of their latest politically correct channel realignments.

This will definitely keep the Tivo awake but the danger is that when you create any new SPs or Wishlists they are often (but not always it seems) placed at the bottom of the list and in those circumstance the News24 recording would block out recording your favourite program

However as for HomeChoice this is a mission critical situation I am sure you will get into the habit of checking your whole SP order every time you create a new SP or Wishlist.

If you ever get Tivoweb then with its add on Manual Recording module you can create a manual season pass. Such an SP would have the advantage of there never being a chance of the program to which the SP is linked being cancelled or changing name, thereby deactivating the Season Pass from recording any more.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Since many set top boxes have a habit of freezing if left on for days,
many of use use mains timers to reboot them once per day anyway.

You could use a mains timer switch to turn the homechoice box off/on (reboot) at set times every 5 hours during the day. You'd have to choose the times carefully though so it doesn't reboot during a recording (does it restart on the same channel it went off at? and how long does it take to restart?)

This is all a bit irrelevent though, because as soon as you get "into" using tivo and a lot of season-passes/wishlists installed, tivo willl be almost permenently recording anyway - it certainly wouldn't go more than 5 hours without a new recording, even a suggestion.

A tivo that isn't recording is a wasted tivo


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> This is all a bit irrelevent though, because as soon as you get "into" using tivo and a lot of season-passes/wishlists installed, tivo willl be almost permenently recording anyway - it certainly wouldn't go more than 5 hours without a new recording, even a suggestion.


When a Tivo is nearly full up with Keep Until I Delete recordings (as Annie's box with maximum 40 hours at Basic may soon become) then it can easily go many hours without making a recording.

The timer solution is no good unless a Homechoice box picks up where it was after a power (as my Netgem IPlayer Freeview box does) rather than going in to Standby and then needing a specific On signal (rather than just a channel number) to turn it back on again. If the latter then a mains timer does not help with Homechoce.


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