# HR20 Advantages Over HR10



## boneskrw (Jan 28, 2006)

Now that I've lived with the HR20 a few weeks, I have discovered a few more things I like better than my old TiVoHR10. So far, the lack of DLB's did not make much difference to me. 

First, the ability to see and hear the program when looking at the list of recorded programs. Even when you're setting audio and video options, the program is there in a small window. That is a huge advantage compared to the HR10 with dead silence with the list displayed. 

Second, the more I use the RF remote, the better I like it. There is no more aiming at the DVR, just hit the buttons. Makes you wonder why all remotes for TV, Audio Receiver, DVD player, etc. aren't this way.

Third, now that I'm used to it, the fast forward 1X, 2X, 3X, and 4X is really handy and responds even better than the HR10. 

Fourth, the HR20 allows you to display only HD sources on the guide, or a whole list of other options. One handy one is the selection that displays only the HD version of duplicate channels, like locals. 

Fifth, the DVR runs much cooler than the HR10 did. Common sense tells me that means longer life. 

Sixth, you can actually turn the DVR off instantly with the remote without waiting for a menu. 

Seventh, it's nice to see the bar on the bottom of the "list" screen showing how much hard drive is used up. 

It appears to me that Direct TV DID do a good job of improving their old DVR. Some posters' comments about "poorly thought out" and "hurried to market", just don't pan out in real use. Like the expression goes, "in with the new, out with the old". After the MPEG2 HD channels disappear, the HR10 will still be a good HD set top box and recorder for locals. Maybe it would be better to sell the HR10 while it still has some value and get an HR20 or HR10 as the second DVR---if you need one.


----------



## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

boneskrw said:


> First, the ability to see and hear the program when looking at the list of recorded programs. Even when you're setting audio and video options, the program is there in a small window. That is a huge advantage compared to the HR10 with dead silence with the list displayed.


this is one of the things i DISlike about the hr20. cant stand the 'pig,' and wish i could disable it.



boneskrw said:


> Second, the more I use the RF remote, the better I like it. There is no more aiming at the DVR, just hit the buttons. Makes you wonder why all remotes for TV, Audio Receiver, DVD player, etc. aren't this way.


something i didnt really notice. whether i use an hr10-250, or hr20 ive never had to 'aim.'



boneskrw said:


> Third, now that I'm used to it, the fast forward 1X, 2X, 3X, and 4X is really handy and responds even better than the HR10.


 much prefer the ff on the hr10, but dont dislike that of the hr20.



boneskrw said:


> Fifth, the DVR runs much cooler than the HR10 did. Common sense tells me that means longer life.
> 
> Sixth, you can actually turn the DVR off instantly with the remote without waiting for a menu.


could care less about it being cooler, as its never been an issue. same with turning a dvr off, as ive never even considered doing that (dont see an advantage to it).



boneskrw said:


> Seventh, it's nice to see the bar on the bottom of the "list" screen showing how much hard drive is used up.


i like this too.



boneskrw said:


> It appears to me that Direct TV DID do a good job of improving their old DVR. Some posters' comments about "poorly thought out" and "hurried to market", just don't pan out in real use. Like the expression goes, "in with the new, out with the old". After the MPEG2 HD channels disappear, the HR10 will still be a good HD set top box and recorder for locals. Maybe it would be better to sell the HR10 while it still has some value and get an HR20 or HR10 as the second DVR---if you need one.


since you didnt own the unit at its inception, youve no idea how wrong you are on the 'hurried to market' comment, lol. the unit was a buggy piece o crap back then, and has greatly improved.

i like both units about the same, but the things youve mentioned arent really a big deal to me.

to each his own.


----------



## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

boneskrw said:


> Third, now that I'm used to it, the fast forward 1X, 2X, 3X, and 4X is really handy and responds even better than the HR10.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Fifth, the DVR runs much cooler than the HR10 did. Common sense tells me that means longer life.


I have both boxes and no allegiance to either one. My experience with the FFWD and REW functions has been the opposite of yours -- much prefer the HR10, especially if you are looking to use the "skip to tick" function, or to jump to the end of the program. On the HR20, these functions exist, but don't work well at all.

Not sure how you are gauging the temp of the HR10. Mine is sealed -- it feels pretty cool to the touch. On the other hand, the HR20 is radiating a lot of heat through the vents on top. Unlike the HR10, this means you can't stack anything else on top of it.


----------



## boneskrw (Jan 28, 2006)

rickmeoff,
I did own the HR10 through software versions 3.xx to 6.e. Local stations were, at times, not viewable due to audio and video dropouts. Failure to record from the "To Do" list was also very frustrating. Direct TV offered free HBO for six months and reduced HD subscription rate for a year to compensate. That's history now.

Whatever the early problems were on the HR20 don't really concern me, since I don't have any problems now. Anything Direct TV improves as a result of customer complaints will, hopefully, be urther pluses for this DVR.


----------



## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

boneskrw said:


> rickmeoff,
> I did own the HR10 through software versions 3.xx to 6.e. Local stations were, at times, not viewable due to audio and video dropouts. Failure to record from the "To Do" list was also very frustrating. Direct TV offered free HBO for six months and reduced HD subscription rate for a year to compensate. That's history now.
> 
> Whatever the early problems were on the HR20 don't really concern me, since I don't have any problems now. Anything Direct TV improves as a result of customer complaints will, hopefully, be urther pluses for this DVR.


agreed.

i was referrring to your 'hurried to market comment,' which imo it most definitely was. that thing was -not- prime-time ready when they started shipping them out, and i think youll find very few who owned one back then who will disagree with that sentiment.

that said, todays hr2x is a completely different animal, and theyve worked hard to get it to this point.

had they not had the benefit of us 'beta testers,' lol, who stuck with it through all the problems, the unit wouldnt be as good as it is now.


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

i HATE the "pig" when i am recording a sporting event, I can't just hit guide and then when I turn the tv on NOT see it.

Now I either have to have my fiancee queue up the game for me (who doesn't care about the score) or hit pause and block out most of the TV so I don't see the score.


----------



## ke3ju (Jan 5, 2004)

MikeMar said:


> i HATE the "pig" when i am recording a sporting event, I can't just hit guide and then when I turn the tv on NOT see it.
> 
> Now I either have to have my fiancee queue up the game for me (who doesn't care about the score) or hit pause and block out most of the TV so I don't see the score.


I completely agree with this. I try to hit the buttons on the remote that I think will hide the score before I turn on the TV, but sometimes fail. I would have PIG disabled if possible. Especially since there would be more room on the screen for other information.


----------



## boneskrw (Jan 28, 2006)

For those of us that watch things other than sports, the PIG is a benefit, not a problem. If we want to check our "to do" list or list of recorded programs, we miss none of the broadcast we're watching. I would think hitting the mute button or not looking at the PIG would be a plausible solution for sports fans to avoid spoiling the suspense of the game.


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

ke3ju said:


> I completely agree with this. I try to hit the buttons on the remote that I think will hide the score before I turn on the TV, but sometimes fail. I would have PIG disabled if possible. Especially since there would be more room on the screen for other information.





boneskrw said:


> For those of us that watch things other than sports, the PIG is a benefit, not a problem. If we want to check our "to do" list or list of recorded programs, we miss none of the broadcast we're watching. I would think hitting the mute button or not looking at the PIG would be a plausible solution for sports fans to avoid spoiling the suspense of the game.


Well obviously it would be best if you could TURN IT OFF 

It's easy enough to hit pause when you are doing todo list and stuff like that I think.


----------



## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

boneskrw said:


> For those of us that watch things other than sports, the PIG is a benefit, not a problem.


 your stating as fact that its just the sports folks who dont like pig is a pretty broad stroke yer painting there. some people just simply dont like it, and dont wanna see whats being recorded while looking at the guide.

thus, its not deemed as a benefit.



boneskrw said:


> I would think hitting the mute button or not looking at the PIG would be a plausible solution for sports fans to avoid spoiling the suspense of the game.


wow, why didnt -we- think of that?

1. mute button does not hide the score.
2. there are times where 'not looking at the pig' is simply not a 'plausible solution' at a time when one needs to.....well........look at the guide, for instance.

a more 'plausible solution' would be for dtv to have a way to disable it.


----------



## jmhays (Aug 19, 2002)

boneskrw,
That is really great that you are in love with your new HR20. But this is the DirecTV HD Tivo forum, not the HR20 forum. I can appreciate that you want to share your knowledge with the world, but why not do so in the HR20 forum, not in the HD Tivo forum? I for one am very happy that all the new HR2x owners really like their new toys, but please tell that to all the other HR2x owners on the HR2x forum, not on the Tivo forum.


----------



## scottjf8 (Nov 11, 2001)

MikeMar said:


> i HATE the "pig" when i am recording a sporting event, I can't just hit guide and then when I turn the tv on NOT see it.
> 
> Now I either have to have my fiancee queue up the game for me (who doesn't care about the score) or hit pause and block out most of the TV so I don't see the score.


Whenever I know i'm recording a sporting event I don't want to see, when I turn the TV on I *immediately* hit LIST - PLAY .. it'll always start playing the first thing in your list (and since it'll group play, you don't have to worry about it not playing something - if you hit LIST and then play on a group, it'll just start playing the group)


----------



## fjwagner (Jan 22, 2006)

.... argh! how many arguments and comparisons must we have before we all die of boredom over the entire issue of the DVR wars. I miss the days of "how do I do ..." or "I hear a new download is coming ...". etc. Fred


----------



## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

jmhays said:


> boneskrw,
> That is really great that you are in love with your new HR20. But this is the DirecTV HD Tivo forum, not the HR20 forum...


Jm,

Maybe you missed the memo a couple months ago:

New Directv DVR models may be discussed here too!

- Craig


----------



## jmhays (Aug 19, 2002)

Craig,
No, I didn't miss that memo. I, like fjwagner am sick of all the "my DVR is better than your DVR" discussions. If they like the garbage that DirecTV is now selling, good for them. Let them start their own forum so they can talk about how great it is. Then maybe we can get back to discussing how we can make the HDTivo better than it already is.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

milominderbinder said:


> Jm,
> 
> Maybe you missed the memo a couple months ago:
> 
> ...


I took a look at the post you linked.



> Discussion about non-TiVo DVR products in general is discouraged, as the discussion here, and throughout the TiVo Community forums, should be focused on TiVo products


I don't understand these threads. People with a HD TV don't really have a choice. Go with a HR20/21 or leave DTV. There isn't a tivo option now nor is there likely to be a tivo option in the foreseeable future.

People who want to use a tivo need to explore cable and FiOS.

There isn't any question the HR20 isn't as reliable as a tivo. Go back a few months and read the posts from users that found their HR20 only recorded the first half of the season premier of Grey's Anatomy. There isn't any question that some of the tivo functions don't really exist with the HR20. The HR20 has been out for a while. Does it have 30 second skip, suggestions, dual live buffers and does it do wishlist as well as tivo? I'm not asking what is planned, tested or available under some select software version available to select customers.


----------



## Francorosso (Feb 8, 2002)

boneskrw said:


> Fourth, the HR20 allows you to display only HD sources on the guide, or a whole list of other options. One handy one is the selection that displays only the HD version of duplicate channels, like locals.
> 
> So please tell me how to use this function! I am sick of looking at channels on the program guide that I will never use. Thanks.


----------



## cowboys2002 (Jun 15, 2001)

jmhays said:


> Craig,
> No, I didn't miss that memo. I, like fjwagner am sick of all the "my DVR is better than your DVR" discussions. If they like the garbage that DirecTV is now selling, good for them. Let them start their own forum so they can talk about how great it is. Then maybe we can get back to discussing how we can make the HDTivo better than it already is.


Folks,

So, since "you" don't like the discussion, you have deemed it unnecessary?

I have an HR21 on 1 tv and 3 directivos elsewhere.

What "I" am tired of are the tivo devotees who simply refuse to admit that any non-Tivo unit is "useable" and essentially think it is "devil-spawned".

Just 3-5 years ago, this board was filled with comments SINGING the praises of DTV, NFLST and bashing the cable companies at every turn for NOT having an integrated soulution (dual tuners and clearer recordings).

TV technology has changed a bit and with that the need to "change with the times". Cable has started providing more channels, but has historically been SLOW to change out cable boxes. Along came Cable Cards and capable devises (TV's and Tivo's) and the "barely-trained" CSR's and technicians were ripped on TCF. DTV's relationship with Tivo was strained during the Rupert Murdock era due to patent disputes for the competing product and money no doubt.

In the 80-90's, if you wanted movie channels you needed to use a "box" provided by or approved by the cable company. In the 90's-present the same holds true with Dish and DTV. If you want the most HD content that DTV offers and WILL offer, you need a HD receiver.

I will agree that it is interesting that now DTV only has leased receivers and with cable you can buy your own DVR and lease the cable card to allow you to receive more content, whereas you used to be able to buy your own DTV equipment.

IMHO, the early adopters who spent upwards of $1,000 on thier Directivo HD boxes are upset (and rightfully so) as all new HD content is MPEG 4 and their existing "investment" will be rendered obsolete in the coming months. for these people, hasn't DTV provided upgrade "choices"?


----------



## ke3ju (Jan 5, 2004)

cowboys2002 said:


> Folks,
> 
> So, since "you" don't like the discussion, you have deemed it unnecessary?
> 
> ...


LOL...same here...I have three DTiVos, and one HR20. I love the TiVos, and I love the HR20 too (my wife doesn't though). It's come a long way, and it still has a long way to go, but D* is doing a great job of bringing us new features, and also making general stability/reliably improvements.

I can't wait to see what's next!!!

Cheers,
Ed


----------



## Scooter (Mar 15, 2000)

jmhays said:


> Craig,
> No, I didn't miss that memo. I, like fjwagner am sick of all the "my DVR is better than your DVR" discussions. If they like the garbage that DirecTV is now selling, good for them. Let them start their own forum so they can talk about how great it is. Then maybe we can get back to discussing how we can make the HDTivo better than it already is.


You need to start taking this a little more seriously. The HR10 is *dead!* Okay, not completely, but almost, and it's going to get worse soon. You wanna sit around here forever and beat your dead horse for the rest of your life, fine.  In the meantime, I think the rest of us that like DIRECTV have to look at our option, and that is the HR20/21. Many of us think it works pretty damn good. Why is that such a bad thing anyway? We all have a right to express our opinions and you trying to suppress them is downright rude.

Do some of you guys really think that the HR10 is the best option for DIRECTV customer who is looking to buy an HD-DVR today? If so, you need medical attention.  If not, I'd suggest you at least point them to a S3 or a HD TiVo and tell them to look at another carrier

Scooter


----------



## boneskrw (Jan 28, 2006)

Cowboys2002,
You CAN buy your own Direct TV DVR if you want. The early TiVo adopters that spent upwards of $1,000 on their HR10 TiVo would have a right to be upset if Direct TV left them high and dry. But, according to posts on this forum and my own personal experience, Direct TV will supply a new DVR and 5 LNB dish more capable than the HR10 at NO COST--or in the case of shorter-term subscribers, nominal cost---certainly not $1,000!! Can any of you think of another consumer product that you can count on this kind of support?? How about a computer, TV, DVD player, car, or any other consumer product you buy or lease? Should I be bitter toward Sony because I spent $1,500 for a SL-2700 Beta Hi-Fi VCR in 1986? They didn't come around later and offer to replace it after Beta died---kind of like MPEG2 HDTV is going to die soon. The HR10 TiVo was a wonderful product, but it's time to move on already. The same will happen with the HR20 and its successors someday--sooner rather than later with today's fast-moving technology.


----------



## cowboys2002 (Jun 15, 2001)

boneskrw said:


> Cowboys2002,
> You CAN buy your own Direct TV DVR if you want. The early TiVo adopters that spent upwards of $1,000 on their HR10 TiVo would have a right to be upset if Direct TV left them high and dry. But, according to posts on this forum and my own personal experience, Direct TV will supply a new DVR and 5 LNB dish more capable than the HR10 at NO COST--or in the case of shorter-term subscribers, nominal cost---certainly not $1,000!! Can any of you think of another consumer product that you can count on this kind of support?? How about a computer, TV, DVD player, car, or any other consumer product you buy or lease? Should I be bitter toward Sony because I spent $1,500 for a SL-2700 Beta Hi-Fi VCR in 1986? They didn't come around later and offer to replace it after Beta died---kind of like MPEG2 HDTV is going to die soon. The HR10 TiVo was a wonderful product, but it's time to move on already. The same will happen with the HR20 and its successors someday--sooner rather than later with today's fast-moving technology.


Trust me, I'm not complaining!!

And Directv made me a nice offer on the HR2x DVR. Since their installer flaked out on me 2 days straight, they sweetened the offer effectively upgrading me for FREE (plus other incentives).

Research indicates that the 5 lnb dish is worth $199 and the multi-switch is another $99 . That covers the normal $299 "upgrade fee" that many complain about for the leased unit. Year ago, installation ran $150 or more for a single receiver and dish install, so the value of the new dish,lnb and install is around $448. Even at $299, you are saving some $$$. And if you get the upgrade for free, you have saved $448.

Yes, I realize there is a 2 year committment, but how is this any different than getting an expensive cell phone for less than retail and having a 2 year contract?

An you are correct, about PC's and other CE devises. My 4 year old Sony DVD player still works. But it lacks HDMI inputs and isn't Blu-Rau or HD DVD. I don't see Sony giving me a deal to upgrade. I could my a budget upconverting DVD palyer at Walmart ($40) with HDMI, or bit the bullet and get a Blu-Ray player for much more.

The cost of keeping up with technology!


----------



## cowboys2002 (Jun 15, 2001)

Scooter said:


> You need to start taking this a little more seriously. The HR10 is *dead!* Okay, not completely, but almost, and it's going to get worse soon. You wanna sit around here forever and beat your dead horse for the rest of your life, fine.  In the meantime, I think the rest of us that like DIRECTV have to look at our option, and that is the HR20/21. Many of us think it works pretty damn good. Why is that such a bad thing anyway? We all have a right to express our opinions and you trying to suppress them is downright rude.
> 
> Do some of you guys really think that the HR10 is the best option for DIRECTV customer who is looking to buy an HD-DVR today? If so, you need medical attention.  If not, I'd suggest you at least point them to a S3 or a HD TiVo and tell them to look at another carrier
> 
> Scooter


IMHO,

Many want to stay with DirecTV, but are unhappy with the past DTV decision to severe ties with Tivo as DTv developed its own DVR. In order to SQUEEZE more channels into the line-up, DTV went to MPEG4. You *can't* make old hardware decode the newer technology folks. We all want more channels, MPEG4 was DTV's solution.

Even those who are stickong with Tivo and choosing to go back to cable (how many of you swore this would NEVER happen?) with SDV not natively supported on the Series 3, what will you do if the cable companies leave you "high and dry"?

Edited to change previous typo of "can" to "can't". Thanks Earl!


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Francorosso said:


> So please tell me how to use this function! I am sick of looking at channels on the program guide that I will never use. Thanks.


Menu->Setup->Display

Toggle the option to HIDE SD Duplicates


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

cowboys2002 said:


> IMHO,
> 
> Many want to stay with DirecTV, but are unhappy with the past DTV decision to severe ties with Tivo as DTv developed its own DVR. In order to SQUEEZE more channels into the line-up, DTV went to MPEG4. You can make old hardware decode the newer technology folks. We all want more channels, MPEG4 was DTV's solution.


So please explain how the chip set dedicated for decoding the MPEG-2 data stream... would be able to understand the MPEG-4. There is no where near enough power in the HR10-250, to software decode the MPEG-4 HD stream

The MPEG-4 choice was because it is more efficient then MPEG-2... and you need that once you start to get to this size of data streams... You can't keep launching more and more sats.

Also... with the limited space in the sky... you only have so much room in the SAT space.... so that OLD technology still needed to be upgraded, to see the other SAT slots... so it is not just MPEG-4 that comes into play.

And lastly.... While DirecTV did opt not to continue with TiVo and continue to use their DVR platform..... Does TiVo, Inc get a pass on that? They played no part in the decision on DirecTV's part to go else where?


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

The "Rushed to Market" comments...

Yes, looking back a year later... the HR20 was probably launched earlier then it shoudl have. You can say the same thing about the TiVo Series 3.

But go back 18-20 months ago.... there was an immense amount of pressure on DirecTV to get the MPEG-4 compatible DVR out to market....

You had articles in main publications starting to go after them because the new MPEG-4 locals could not be DVRed..... you had forums (like this one) starting to DirecTV to task about it not being available.

They were in a lose-lose situation.... sit on it, and the questions come up and you may lose a huge percentage of customers. Release it, and deal with the issues on the box.

It was only a few short weeks later that TiVo release the Series 3.... and it wasn't ready (IMHO) and it quickly got it's first software upgrades right out of the gate as well.

Both companies needed to get their next generation of units out.
------------

Now with all that.

That was then .... this is now.
Anyone getting the HR20/21 today... is not getting the unit I reviewed back on August 16, 2006....

They are getting the unit with today's software... with a year's worth of improvements, new features, improvements on the MPEG-4 encoding end and a good looking future on the platform.... as DirecTV is not "done" with the HR2* platform.... 

They have a lot of good things planned for the unit, to continue it's growth and it's maturing as a solid DVR platform.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Little or no part.

Posters should stop kidding themselves into thinking DTV may go back to tivo.

Posters who like DTV should stop pretending tivo was responsible. DTV didn't want to pay $$$. The fact that originally DTV was going to a NDS solution says it all.



ebonovic said:


> And lastly.... While DirecTV did opt not to continue with TiVo and continue to use their DVR platform..... Does TiVo, Inc get a pass on that? They played no part in the decision on DirecTV's part to go else where?


----------



## Scooter (Mar 15, 2000)

cowboys2002 said:


> IMHO,
> 
> Many want to stay with DirecTV, but are unhappy with the past DTV decision to severe ties with Tivo as DTv developed its own DVR. In order to SQUEEZE more channels into the line-up, DTV went to MPEG4. You can make old hardware decode the newer technology folks. We all want more channels, MPEG4 was DTV's solution.
> 
> Even those who are stickong with Tivo and choosing to go back to cable (how many of you swore this would NEVER happen?) with SDV not natively supported on the Series 3, what will you do if the cable companies leave you "high and dry"?


Oh, just so it's clear; I wasn't happy about the divorce either (I'm a huge TiVo fan also). As soon as I heard Murdoch was gonna be in charge I had a feeling we were in big trouble with our TiVos. Before he got his grubs on DIRECTV my friends across the pond in the UK were telling me all about the SD-Sky box (another Murdoch stronghold). That made me scared about our D-TiVos and the future of the HR10s. 
Well, it's turning out not to be as bad after all. But they did have a rough start, that's for sure. As I've said before, they really are quite good now. Sure they still have growing pains, but none are perfect. Let's not fool ourselves.
As far as making old equipment decode MPEG4? I'm no expert, but I don't think it's a simple software upgrade-if that's what you are getting at. I think you are out of luck if you were hoping to get a HR10 with the new channels. Sorry.

Scooter


----------



## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

lew said:


> I took a look at the post you linked.
> 
> I don't understand these threads. People with a HD TV don't really have a choice. Go with a HR20/21 or leave DTV. There isn't a tivo option now nor is there likely to be a tivo option in the foreseeable future.
> 
> ...


I couldn't possibly disagree with your reliability comment more! My HR20s are light years ahead of my HR10's with regard to reliability. My HR10s required constant babysitting to make sure they would record my season passes as scheduled. No such thing with my HR20s. They just work.

And what about the functions that the HR20 has the the HR10s don't? And what about the significant performance improvements of the HR20 when compared to the HR10?

Each person has to decide which features are most important to them, but let's be fair about the reliability comments. I just don't see how the HR20 can be considered less reliable than the HR10. At least in my case, my three HR20's are much more reliable than my three HR10's.


----------



## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

lew said:


> Little or no part.
> 
> Posters should stop kidding themselves into thinking DTV may go back to tivo.
> 
> Posters who like DTV should stop pretending tivo was responsible. DTV didn't want to pay $$$. The fact that originally DTV was going to a NDS solution says it all.


So you were in the room during the discussions? How do any of us know what caused the split? I'm not defending one or the other but why spread information that you can't possibly know to be true?


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

lew said:


> Little or no part.
> 
> Posters should stop kidding themselves into thinking DTV may go back to tivo.
> 
> Posters who like DTV should stop pretending tivo was responsible. DTV didn't want to pay $$$. The fact that originally DTV was going to a NDS solution says it all.


DirecTV is not going back to TiVo, Inc.... and the purchase of the ReplayTV technology, is pretty much the SOD growing on top of the coffin, that is 6feet under.

It is always still possible, but very very unlikley.

What pretending?
We no of NOTHING that happened in the board room for their discussions between DirecTV group and TiVo, Inc.

-) Is it out of the realm of possibility that TiVo priced themselves out of consideration?
-) Is it out of the realm of possibility that TiVo thought of them selves as the End-All-Be-All and wanted more control of the platform?
-) Is it out of the realm of possibility that DirecTV wanted to do something with the DVR platform, that TiVo couldn't deliver in a timely/cost efficient system?

That aspect of the entire issue.... it is business... and in this particular case, two companies... that had their goals for an agreement... and agreement that was never made....

None of know who made the last offer, and who ultimately had the final denial of an offer on an agreement.... but anyone that has been in that process, knows it is a two way street.

As to your last point:
What "fact" that originally DTV was going to an NDS solution?
I have never seen anything that indicated back in 2000 that DirecTV was courting an non-existant NDS solution at the time?

Be it 4 years later, DirecTV had another option (other then TiVo Inc), most certainly does play into the decision that are made.... But it doesn't necessarily dictate the solution/choice


----------



## cowboys2002 (Jun 15, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> So please explain how the chip set dedicated for decoding the MPEG-2 data stream... would be able to understand the MPEG-4. There is no where near enough power in the HR10-250, to software decode the MPEG-4 HD stream
> 
> The MPEG-4 choice was because it is more efficient then MPEG-2... and you need that once you start to get to this size of data streams... You can't keep launching more and more sats.
> 
> ...


Earl, I meant CAN'T. Looking at the rest of my post, that should have been evident.

I'm not trying to spread bad info . I will correct my typo!1


----------



## cowboys2002 (Jun 15, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> So please explain how the chip set dedicated for decoding the MPEG-2 data stream... would be able to understand the MPEG-4. There is no where near enough power in the HR10-250, to software decode the MPEG-4 HD stream
> 
> The MPEG-4 choice was because it is more efficient then MPEG-2... and you need that once you start to get to this size of data streams... You can't keep launching more and more sats.
> 
> ...


On the last part, it all boils down to a business decision that makes economic sense for both parties.

It is my understanding that very little (if any) money is made on the equipment itself (cell phone example). The hardware is something that is needed to provide/receive the "for money" service. Tivo spends big $$ developing boxes and takes years to recoup with the monthly fees while having to support users and develop new software.

I'm not trying to blame Tivo for the discontinued development of equipment with its "partners". There are just a bit too many posts where people are slaming the HD DVR's pure;y based upon the fact it is non-Tivo. DirecTV made a business decision (under Murdoch) to go with its own DVR and save $$ in licensing,royalties, and revenue sharing (my guess). Many stuck with their Diretv HD Tivo's. Had I upgraded SOONER, I probable would have bought 1 myself. Having recently purchased my first HDTV and soon purchasing another before March Madness, I chose the least expensive "up front cost", that is the HD DVR, 5 LNB Dish, Multi-switch and Install for free I was offered. 2 year committment of $9.99 is $239.76 (No movie Channels as of yet) less my free HD fee for 6 months and $10 a month crdit for 12 months made the choice to stick with DTV easy.

Heck, I would have stayed just with the free antenna and install.

Now, when the 2nd HDTV is purchased, I may try a Series 3 with OTA to compare picture quality and then and only then will I know if my current decision was bad.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

cowboys2002 said:


> Earl, I meant CAN'T. Looking at the rest of my post, that should have been evident.
> 
> I'm not trying to spread bad info . I will correct my typo!1


Fair enough... gotta love Typos on key words..


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ebonovic said:


> The "Rushed to Market" comments...
> 
> Yes, looking back a year later... the HR20 was probably launched earlier then it shoudl have. You can say the same thing about the TiVo Series 3.


Based on what? You can say that blue is orange and that doesn't give it any basis in reality. The TiVo Series 3 scored an 8.3 rating from CNET and they never felt a need to adjust that rating based on bugs and problems. With the HR20 they actually reduced their original rating based on the tremendous number of problems reported as well as their own first hand experience.

No, the S3 was not perfect at release, but its primary problems were related to immaturity of the cable card technology and high initial costs. I see no evidence that it suffered level of software problems we see HR20 users talking about.


----------



## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

lew said:


> I took a look at the post you linked...


Lew,

The title of the thread kind of gives it away:

New Directv DVR models may be discussed here too!

You did not include in your quote the first part:


> _This forum topic is specifically designed for discussion involving DirecTV TiVo products. *Comparisons and contrasts to non-TiVo products is permitted, as well as questions about other DirecTV products (such as the HR20)* as they relate to TiVo products is fine..._


Then the rest of the quote makes sense once you have the context.

- Craig


----------



## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

boneskrw said:


> First, the ability to see and hear the program when looking at the list of recorded programs. Even when you're setting audio and video options, the program is there in a small window. That is a huge advantage compared to the HR10 with dead silence with the list displayed.


I really hate this feature. The PIG thumbnail is totally useless and I wish that it could be turned off.


> Third, now that I'm used to it, the fast forward 1X, 2X, 3X, and 4X is really handy and responds even better than the HR10.


The fast forward is not smooth at all and is impossible to follow. It is like you are looking at a bunch of post cards as you are fast forwarding. It seems my HR10-250 response is much faster also and plays back video much more smoothly. 


> Fourth, the HR20 allows you to display only HD sources on the guide, or a whole list of other options. One handy one is the selection that displays only the HD version of duplicate channels, like locals.


Channels I receive is broken and does not have a user editable channels I receive making the filters completely worthless.


> Sixth, you can actually turn the DVR off instantly with the remote without waiting for a menu.


Been able to do this with my harmony remote on the HR10-250.

The HR20 menus are very inconsistent. Sometimes you can not get out of a menu without hitting exit and other times hitting exit takes you back to live tv. The push and hold commands on the remote (slow-motion playback, skip to tick, ...) only work about 50% of the time with either IR or RF. They reorganize the menus in several different national releases of the software making it hard to find menu items that where just one or two clicks away. Most of the menus have a help box at the top which is totally useless and waste screen area.

The HR20 seems very rushed to market and not very well thought out.


----------



## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

I'm surprised that there is such a difference of opinion on the PIG.

I like it, rather have it than not have it. Of course I've learned to hit pause before I go into the progtram listing (unless I want it to continue like yesterday when I was watching the football game and I wanted to check out something that was on later in the evening)

a perfect solution would be a toggle switch/selection that would let the users who like it have it and vice versa.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

nrc said:


> Based on what? You can say that blue is orange and that doesn't give it any basis in reality. The TiVo Series 3 scored an 8.3 rating from CNET and they never felt a need to adjust that rating based on bugs and problems. With the HR20 they actually reduced their original rating based on the tremendous number of problems reported as well as their own first hand experience.
> 
> No, the S3 was not perfect at release, but its primary problems were related to immaturity of the cable card technology and high initial costs. I see no evidence that it suffered level of software problems we see HR20 users talking about.


Regardless of the "raiting" on the S3...

Did it or Did it not... have issues when it was release, that required software updates?

Has it required a fair number of software updates during the year as well?

I never said they were at the same issue level.

Could you imagine if it was? TiVo had a nearly 7 year head start on developing their 3rd generation of a DVR... I would hope that it would be released in a significantly better condition, then a company developing their first...

Even with the CableCard blame for it's issues.... Maybe TiVo should have sat on it, till the Cable Card technology matured more....


----------



## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> The "Rushed to Market" comments...
> 
> Yes, looking back a year later... the HR20 was probably launched earlier then it shoudl have. You can say the same thing about the TiVo Series 3.


i think youre talking apples an oranges here (besides which, a more fair comparison would be the hr10-250).

dtv used us and -we paid- for the right to be their guinea pigs (although my many phone calls complaining about the many months of problems yielded me some free programming) while being locked in to another 2 years.

they pretty much sent out a work-in-progress half finished piece o crap. did they have their reasons? sure, but that didnt making the viewing experience any more pleasurable for us.

its funny how, even back then when the unit sucked many of the dtv apologists were saying that 'it didnt,' and now that the unit has become so much better we hear the 'well, the unit kinda DID suck back then,' lol.

bottom line is that they without a doubt hurried the thing to market, and those of us that were early adopters suffered mightly for a very long time with the thing.

for those that waited until recently to get one, their experience has for the most part been a positive one because the hr20 really is a good dvr. i like it very much, and although my wife still does not, i think she'' eventually come over to the darkside, lol.

water under the bridge now, cuz unless dtv really screws up, the hr2x is getting better all the time.


----------



## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

The PiG does take up real estate that could be used for more useful information. There really isn't any reason why the display of the PiG or not couldn't be an option. There many items in the UI that could be user customizable.


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

> Did it or Did it not... have issues when it was release, that required software updates?
> 
> Has it required a fair number of software updates during the year as well?


Yes, on both counts. If that's where you set the bar then every DVR ever produced was "rushed to market".



> I never said they were at the same issue level.


If you weren't implying that then why bring up the TiVo S3 at all?

__________________


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

nrc said:


> If you weren't implying that then why bring up the TiVo S3 at all?


Point of reference, since after all... This is a TiVo forum....


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ebonovic said:


> Point of reference, since after all... This is a TiVo forum....


Point of reference for what? Rushed to market vs. not rushed to market? Saying "You can say the same thing about the TiVo Series 3" is meaningless verbage unless you're prepared to offer plausible support for it.


----------



## pheroy (Jan 7, 2003)

I'm transitioning from a couple of HR10s to an HR20/21. I definitely miss the overall elegance of the Tivo interface, but there are a few things I like about the HR20 - of course access to lots of extra HD content is a big one. Just discovered one thing this week that I don't think has been mentioned: simultaneous HDMI & Component output. This has been really beneficial to me since my new TV and receiver are setup with HDMI connections, but my old projector is still using Component video. With the Tivo I had to disconnect the HDMI cable in order for the Component output to activate, but the HR20 doesn't have this limitation. Within a month I should have a brand spanking new projector with HDMI hooked up so it won't matter, but for now the HR20 means a little less fumbling around with cables.


----------



## ispy109 (Jan 4, 2008)

I have an HR10 as well as a DTV SD dual tuner receiver. The one thing I have not been able to figure out is how to go from tuner to tuner on the sd receiver. The HR 20 remote looks very much like the SD receiver remote I am using. As you know with the HR10 and any other TIVO you simply hit the live tv button and easily toggle from tuner to tuner. Is there a way to do this with the HR 20. Also, someone mentioned they have three HR20s. Does DTV give you some sort of a discount for multiple units. I have two and will probably soon buy a third HDTV, and what's the point of having HDTVs if you cant get DTV HD reception.


----------



## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

ispy109 said:


> I have an HR10 as well as a DTV SD dual tuner receiver. The one thing I have not been able to figure out is how to go from tuner to tuner on the sd receiver. The HR 20 remote looks very much like the SD receiver remote I am using. As you know with the HR10 and any other TIVO you simply hit the live tv button and easily toggle from tuner to tuner. Is there a way to do this with the HR 20. Also, someone mentioned they have three HR20s. Does DTV give you some sort of a discount for multiple units. I have two and will probably soon buy a third HDTV, and what's the point of having HDTVs if you cant get DTV HD reception.


The HR20 is a dual tuner DVR but does not have dual live buffers. There are workarounds that give the 'feel' of dual live buffers but it's not the same.

And there is not set discount for multiple HR2x's. I got all three of mine at the same time for the cost of shipping only ($19.95 each). But that was 6+ months ago when the demand wasn't quite as high.


----------



## ispy109 (Jan 4, 2008)

The live tv button feature is what I will miss the most when I begrudgingly upgrade. As you probably know, they have already taken away two of the hd channels UHD and HD movies. When I called to find out what was going on, there was a message stating the those two channels were provided as part of a trial period that had now ended. I had those two channels for over a year, and they never said anything about them being temporary. They are actually trying to make us pay for those two channels. This was why I am thinking that it will still be a while before they completely do away with the few HD channels currently available to the HR10. The only two I watch frequently are TNT and HBO, which I will sorely miss. When they get rid of HBO HD, I will be forced to upgrade. Otherwise, I view mostly HD OTA. It would be nice to get all of the channels they are now offering for the HD 20. Oh well, some day I suppose having HD will not be a big deal. I'm old enough to remember when it was special to have a Zentih color tv with the remote that physically turned the tuner dial.


----------



## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

ispy109 said:


> The live tv button feature is what I will miss the most when I begrudgingly upgrade. As you probably know, they have already taken away two of the hd channels UHD and HD movies. When I called to find out what was going on, there was a message stating the those two channels were provided as part of a trial period that had now ended. I had those two channels for over a year, and they never said anything about them being temporary. They are actually trying to make us pay for those two channels. This was why I am thinking that it will still be a while before they completely do away with the few HD channels currently available to the HR10. The only two I watch frequently are TNT and HBO, which I will sorely miss. When they get rid of HBO HD, I will be forced to upgrade. Otherwise, I view mostly HD OTA. It would be nice to get all of the channels they are now offering for the HD 20. Oh well, some day I suppose having HD will not be a big deal. I'm old enough to remember when it was special to have a Zentih color tv with the remote that physically turned the tuner dial.


I think that they have already announced that the HBO channels will be migrating to the MPEG4 format at some point early this year. i dont recall when though.


----------



## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

boneskrw said:


> For those of us that watch things other than sports, the PIG is a benefit, not a problem. If we want to check our "to do" list or list of recorded programs, we miss none of the broadcast we're watching. I would think hitting the mute button or not looking at the PIG would be a plausible solution for sports fans to avoid spoiling the suspense of the game.


Not always true. I also watch other shows, and don't want them spoiled either.


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

ispy109 said:


> The live tv button feature is what I will miss the most when I begrudgingly upgrade.


Not sure I understand. Easy to get to Live TV, just hit the exit button, does the same thing as the Live TV button on a Tivo. You might want to stop over at DBSTalk which has tons of tips and tricks of using the DVR Plus DVRs.


----------



## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

shibby191 said:


> Not sure I understand. Easy to get to Live TV, just hit the exit button, does the same thing as the Live TV button on a Tivo. You might want to stop over at DBSTalk which has tons of tips and tricks of using the DVR Plus DVRs.


Yes, but on DirecTivos the live button would also swap tuners, since the HR20 doesn't have DLBs it can't do this while watching live TV. That is what ispy109 was referring to.


----------



## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

shibby191 said:


> Not sure I understand. Easy to get to Live TV, just hit the exit button, does the same thing as the Live TV button on a Tivo. You might want to stop over at DBSTalk which has tons of tips and tricks of using the DVR Plus DVRs.


The exit button does not always take you to live TV. Sometimes it just clears a banner, sometimes it clears the progress bar, sometimes it takes you to the last menu, ... The interface is very inconsistent.


----------



## sloan (Feb 13, 2003)

The only feature I really really like with my HR20 is when I schedule a program, and there are already 2 shows in that slot.

It asks you:

Cancel This Request?
Cancel Conflicting Show #1?
Cancel Conflicting Show #2?


I really like this, since the Tivo will only ask you if you want to cancel the lesser priority show.


I don't like the FF on the HR20. I love the Tivo FF features.

I HATE THE LITTLE IMAGE AT THE TOP when I'm going through my list.
Why? If I'm taping a football or basketball game, it will (or sometimes will) show up at the top, while I'm trying to start the game from the beginning.
I hate this, and wish I could turn it off.


I don't hate the HR20.
And I think people who get the HR2x as their first DVR will like it.

Tivo has just spoiled me with its User Interface.

The TivoHD is even better with its search options. I mean, the concatenated Wish Lists is very nice. "An actor name" AND "football category". 
Made it really easy to find Ronald Reagan and the gipper!!

But I've warmed up to the HR20. But I've only had it 2 months or so, so I wasn't a guinea pig early adopter on that one.


----------



## sloan (Feb 13, 2003)

Oh....the harddrive upgrade.

The fact that I just opened the case, took out the old drive and put in a new 750GB drive....and restarted it and IT JUST WORKED was a very nice feature.

After a thousand different "blessed drives" and then InstantCake (for me, for friends, etc).....that was a nice feature.

I got a recommended 750GB drive for $150, and it rocks.

..


----------



## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

sloan said:


> The only feature I really really like *with my HR10 *is when I schedule a program, and there are already 2 shows in that slot.
> 
> It asks you:
> 
> ...


you mean hr20 (bolded).


----------



## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

jmhays said:


> boneskrw,
> That is really great that you are in love with your new HR20. But this is the DirecTV HD Tivo forum, not the HR20 forum. I can appreciate that you want to share your knowledge with the world, but why not do so in the HR20 forum, not in the HD Tivo forum? I for one am very happy that all the new HR2x owners really like their new toys, but please tell that to all the other HR2x owners on the HR2x forum, not on the Tivo forum.


It seems to me that DirecTV is clearly moving away from TiVo stuff and thus this particular forum relating with DirecTV's obsolete HD recorder will be no more. The HR20 series seems to be somewhat relevant in this particular forum since it's the ONLY receiver that's capable of HD content. The HR10, unfortunately, is heading out the door because that's what DirecTV is in the process of doing and that's what they want. Pretty soon there will be no HD satellite channels the HR10's will be able to receive. This once in a lifetime HD TiVo will revert back to an SD TiVo just like the rest of them.

No offense, but that's where they are leading us.


----------



## renlopez (Mar 24, 2006)

Here are the features I do like about the HR20/21 other than what's already been mentioned.

1. Caller ID. Nice to see who's calling without having to look at the phone.

2. The ability to output 480i over S-Video while outputting 1080i over HDMI at the same time. This is useful to me because I have HDMI going to the TV and I also have S-Video going to the DVD Recorder. I can watch in 1080i while recording to DVD.

On the HR10, If the res was set to 1080i, the S-video output would be dark. If I wanted to record to DVD, I would have to set it to 480i.

3. The ability to output via Component and HDMI simultaneously. HR10 disables component out, when you attach and HDMI cable.

4. The option of Digital Coax vs. Digital Optical sound. HR10 only has optical.

5. 90 Minute live TV buffer vs 30 on the HR10.

Now here is what the HR10 has that the new HR20/21 doesn't

1. TWO LIVE TV BUFFERS. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY HUGE!!! I can't simply pause one buffer, switch to the other and start watching. I know on the HR20, you can record one show and then flip around and watch another, but switching back and forth between the 2 is so much more difficult.

Another reason the 2 buffers on the HR10 is useful is when I'm watching a sporting event and recording it for the slotted time. If the game exceeds the slotted time, it will still continue to record it on the live TV buffer and I don't miss any action. If the same thing happens on the HR20 and you are watching another channel while it's recording the game, once the game stops recording, that's it. You lose any ability to watch extra time unless you specifically told the HR20 to record extra time. 

Because of this missing feature on the HR20, I'm actually going to permanently have 2 HR20's on the same TV to give me a similar functionality that only 1 HR10 can do.

2. I do prefer the Tivo style guide. I do wish it more clearly labeled HD shows like the HR20.


----------



## scottjf8 (Nov 11, 2001)

renlopez said:


> Now here is what the HR10 has that the new HR20/21 doesn't
> 
> 1. TWO LIVE TV BUFFERS. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY HUGE!!! I can't simply pause one buffer, switch to the other and start watching. I know on the HR20, you can record one show and then flip around and watch another, but switching back and forth between the 2 is so much more difficult.


I don't understand why. Hit record on both shows, then just use the Previous button to switch between them.



renlopez said:


> 2. I do prefer the Tivo style guide. I do wish it more clearly labeled HD shows like the HR20.


If you use the directional pad to highlight the channel name in the guide, hit INFO and it will show all shows on that channel in time order. Kind of a "hidden gem"


----------



## renlopez (Mar 24, 2006)

scottjf8 said:


> I don't understand why. Hit record on both shows, then just use the Previous button to switch between them.


I'll try it but it will take some getting used to. I'm going to end up recording every single thing that's on just so I can flip to something else during a commercial.

My other question is this. If I'm recording 2 shows at the same time, and they both end at the same time, what channel will own the live tv buffer?


----------



## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

renlopez said:


> ..1. TWO LIVE TV BUFFERS. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY HUGE!!! I can't simply pause one buffer, switch to the other and start watching...
> 2. I do prefer the TiVo style guide. I do wish it more clearly labeled HD shows like the HR20.


First we should note that the HR21 price just came down by $100 today.

The new National Release software is just starting to roll out that does enable the PAUSE feature we needed to have a great DLB Workaround. Check it out:

DLB Workaround

Here is a little more on some other new features coming in this national release:

_How can I do more advanced searches?
_→ Enhanced Search

_How do I schedule a recording on the HD DVR+ from my PC?_
→ Remote Booking ● New Online Suggestions

There are other new features that need little explanation:

● Triple Tap Lookup for DoD: When on a DoD page, you can use the # keys on your remote to enter letters in "cellphone/SMS" style. AKA: Hit #2 Three times to get a C
● _*Adult Channel Hiding*_: This is an update parental control that is currently on the R15. When you enable this, it completely REMOVES the adult rated channels from the listings, almost as if they don't exist.
● IP Callback: The ethernet/internet connection, will now be used for communication back to DirecTV for: PPV purchases, GameLounge, and other items. *No phone line is required!*
● Mediashare Video Support: *You can now access jpegs, MP3's, and video files from your PC*.
● *30 Second Skip*: You will now have the choice between 30s SKIP or SLIP. To enable: Keyword Search 30SKIP or 30SLIP
● Shortcut for _*Closed Caption On/Off - Only 2 clicks now*_!
● Edit Series Link options when no episodes are found

Did I mention the price just came down $100?

- Craig


----------



## renlopez (Mar 24, 2006)

scottjf8 said:


> I don't understand why. Hit record on both shows, then just use the Previous button to switch between them.


This totally does not work.

I have 2 programs recording. When I use the Previous button to switch back and forth, the program jumps to the end of the buffer. The point is when one show goes to commercial, I want pause it then go the other channel which is recording. When I go back, to the original show, the show is no longer anchored at my pause point and I am now watching it live at the end of the buffer. This is no good if I'm flipping between two football games because it will ruin the score for me.

With Tivo, I can pause one tuner, switch to the other, pause that tuner, then switch back to the first tuner and my show will still be anchored(paused) at it's original position.

I stand by my original statement that it will take 2 HR20's to accomplish what the 1 HR10 could do.


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

renlopez said:


> This totally does not work.
> 
> I have 2 programs recording. When I use the Previous button to switch back and forth, the program jumps to the end of the buffer. The point is when one show goes to commercial, I want pause it then go the other channel which is recording. When I go back, to the original show, the show is no longer anchored at my pause point and I am now watching it live at the end of the buffer. This is no good if I'm flipping between two football games because it will ruin the score for me.
> 
> ...


The latest software release rolling out national right now on the HR20s fixes the issue with the pause point. So you can indeed pause a program and switch to another and the program you paused will retain it's pause point when you come back.


----------



## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> Did it or Did it not... have issues when it was release, that required software updates?


Yes, there were bugs. Most of them related to cable card compatability. Even with these issues, the systems still continued to function. They didn't lockup, randomly reboot, have to be rebooted to watch a recording, mysteriously not record things, randomly delete recordings without reason, etc., etc. There have been a half dozen software updates. Most of the early point updates (8.0.1a,b,c) were to address cable cable incompatability.



> Maybe TiVo should have sat on it, till the Cable Card technology matured more....


You're just like most consumers... unaware cable cards have been around for some time -- 5+ years. It also took Tivo, Inc. several years (3?) to get the S3 past Cable Labs. It was demo'd @ CES in '04 or '05 -- in a S1 Dtivo case. How, exactly, is the technology going to mature if no one uses it? The cable companies wouldn't be using cable cards today if the FCC hadn't forced them.


----------

