# How much longer will Tivo be relevant?



## dms92969 (May 24, 2003)

Please do not get me wrong. I love Tivo. I just purchased a new Tivo to update my Premiere. The issue is that with all these companies (Comcast, Verizon, etc) raising their prices, and companies may not be willing to haggle to much (they will just raise Internet prices to make it up). People are going to streaming services instead, what is the point of Tivo if can just stream all the shows. What will be the point of recording etc.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

I always wondered if TiVo would be allowed to record streamed shows for "personal use". Like how the betamax court decision allowed users to video tape TV shows for personal use. Isn't this just the more modern way of the same thing? 

If TiVo could record streamed shows for offline viewing, it would also let people preserve their shows even when their license runs out and a show is no longer on the service. I'm sure the streaming services wouldn't like it, but is it legal? It seems like a personal copy for private use and time shifting, like the old video tape days.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

dms92969 said:


> Please do not get me wrong. I love Tivo. I just purchased a new Tivo to update my Premiere. The issue is that with all these companies (Comcast, Verizon, etc) raising their prices, and companies may not be willing to haggle to much (they will just raise Internet prices to make it up). People are going to streaming services instead, what is the point of Tivo if can just stream all the shows. What will be the point of recording etc.


The streaming crybaby billionaire players are the screaming crybaby billionaire players of cable. I believe they are in the middle of a con job perpetrated on the cord cutters and the American people. The crybaby billionaires want every last dime they can pull out your pocket. This will prevent them from streaming all the shows as they will fight among themselves to the bottom of the content barrel to max out billions of dollars of profits as they did with cable, creating the cord cutters. You are at their greedy mercy to watch whatever they want you to watch until you are forced fed their eventually made cheap garbage at higher and higher prices to you and greater profits to them. This is what they do and have done with cable. But if you record shows, you are the one in control and as you keep what you recorded, you may not discover someone else pulled your favorite show or movie right off your TV and is forcing you to go without or forcing you to rebuy it.


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## Sheffield Steve (Jun 11, 2010)

What I like about the TiVo is the ability to see all the programs in one place regardless of them being from OTA or Neflix, etc.

They need to fix and improve on that in my opinion.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

If it doesn't outlive me, I'm going to be pissed.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Joe3 said:


> The streaming crybaby billionaire players are the screaming crybaby billionaire players of cable. I believe they are in the middle of a con job perpetrated on the cord cutters and the American people. The crybaby billionaires want every last dime they can pull out your pocket. This will prevent them from streaming all the shows as they will fight among themselves to the bottom of the content barrel to max out billions of dollars of profits as they did with cable, creating the cord cutters. You are at their greedy mercy to watch whatever they want you to watch until you are forced fed their eventually made cheap garbage at higher and higher prices to you and greater profits to them. This is what they do and have done with cable. But if you record shows, you are the one in control and as you keep what you recorded, you may not discover someone else pulled your favorite show or movie right off your TV and is forcing you to go without or forcing you to rebuy it.


Yep, this is all so true, soon people will realize all this streaming stuff will be more for less, Con Jobs indeed.


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## dms92969 (May 24, 2003)

no matter how you look at it.. Streaming, or cable, Verizon you will be paying. Has anyone done on any studies on the differences?... Let say you had cable. which had just Internet and TV (I pay currently 165 for 250GB internet and TV. For TV I have HBO, Showtime, Stars, Netflix (Free) etc If I had to go Internet Only, how much would would that pay. I would need something for CBS/NBC/ABC/CW (Hulu?), then HBO, ShowTime, Starts, Disney, etc... how much would that be?


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

Tivo OTA, proabably relevant for a little while longer. Tivo Cabelcard? Already irrelevant. Having a hard wired service in to your house with a physical box and hard drives and all that nonsense is archaic as heck.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

BNBTivo said:


> Tivo OTA, proabably relevant for a little while longer. Tivo Cabelcard? Already irrelevant. Having a hard wired service in to your house with a physical box and hard drives and all that nonsense is archaic as heck.


Except it is not. They are already coming out with a new box with cablecard support for CABLE COMPANIES


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

dms92969 said:


> no matter how you look at it.. Streaming, or cable, Verizon you will be paying. Has anyone done on any studies on the differences?... Let say you had cable. which had just Internet and TV (I pay currently 165 for 250GB internet and TV. For TV I have HBO, Showtime, Stars, Netflix (Free) etc If I had to go Internet Only, how much would would that pay. I would need something for CBS/NBC/ABC/CW (Hulu?), then HBO, ShowTime, Starts, Disney, etc... how much would that be?


I pay $70/mo for Gigabit fiber, no cap. $50 for YouTube TV. $15 for HBO. $13 or so for Hulu. and $15 or whatever it is for Netflix. so $163 roughly. Disney is included with YTTV. CW is a free app. The locals are included as well. But here is the kicker. I can use my YTTV anywhere I go. And we have a second home. So instead of paying for a cable package at my second home, I just use the same one. In our RV? Same. At my office? Same. Oh, and I didn't have to spend a ton of money on Tivo lifetime units for all of my TV's at both of my houses, RV, office, etc.

With Tivo/Comcast not supporting onDemand anymore, it made it completely irrelevant for us. That's when I found Tivo to be useless and sold them all off and switched. After switching, my wife and I were both kind of shocked at how much better it is out there and wish we had switched way sooner. All of the streaming apps on Tivo are outdated, slow, and junk. Plex, for example. Hulu is the old version. No HBO (Comcast issue). Etc. Tivo became totally useless as not having onDemand is a deal killer. And since it's a hard drive with limited tuners, you have to carefully manage how much you are actually recording. Conflicts, etc. Just a disaster.

We save a fortune, and I sold all of my Tivo equipment for over $2,000. Or about 3 1/2 years of YouTube TV subscriptions... Call it free cable for 3 years if you want.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

compnurd said:


> Except it is not. They are already coming out with a new box with cablecard support for CABLE COMPANIES


Cable companies are irrelevant, or at least soon to be. Physical boxes are going to be disappearing rapidly - which means, bye bye Tivo. There is no doubt that TV will disconnect from a hard wired, physical box experience to full streaming/app based. There is a reason all the major companies are developing streaming live TV apps, aggressively. The writing is on the wall, big time. It's coming and fast.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

BNBTivo said:


> Cable companies are irrelevant, or at least soon to be. Physical boxes are going to be disappearing rapidly - which means, bye bye Tivo.


Thanks I need that laugh as some of the biggest companies are putting out new boxes


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

dms92969 said:


> no matter how you look at it.. Streaming, or cable, Verizon you will be paying. Has anyone done on any studies on the differences?... Let say you had cable. which had just Internet and TV (I pay currently 165 for 250GB internet and TV. For TV I have HBO, Showtime, Stars, Netflix (Free) etc If I had to go Internet Only, how much would would that pay. I would need something for CBS/NBC/ABC/CW (Hulu?), then HBO, ShowTime, Starts, Disney, etc... how much would that be?


The whole thing about cord cutting is not to reproduce the cable channels but to be able to choose the shows and content that you want to watch. Trying to replace all your cable channels will cost more. If that's what you're trying to do then you are better off with cable. No one is being forced to drop cable and switch.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

compnurd said:


> Thanks I need that laugh as some of the biggest companies are putting out new boxes


You are in total denial. And that's also a good laugh.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

BNBTivo said:


> You are in total denial. And that's also a good laugh.


How? Altice just rolled out new Hardware. Verizon is rolling out new Hardware. Hell Directv is rolling out new hardware for there streaming service


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> The whole thing about cord cutting is not to reproduce the cable channels but to be able to choose the shows and content that you want to watch. Trying to replace all your cable channels will cost more. If that's what you're trying to do then you are better off with cable. No one is being forced to drop cable and switch.


The content costs the same to the provider. With the rapid growth in smart TV's and streaming devices, phones, computers, tablets, etc. It makes absolutely no sense for providers to have physical hardware anymore. It's just legacy companies who rake in big rental fees on the equipment continuing to milk it for everything they can. Streaming services already mimic the traditional cable box experience, with unlimited DVR space, unlimited tuners, instant updates, better search, etc. Streaming isn't just about cutting services anymore. The technology is the clear direction for how we'll receive the content soon.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

compnurd said:


> How? Altice just rolled out new Hardware. Verizon is rolling out new Hardware. Hell Directv is rolling out new hardware for there streaming service


Of course they are. Because it's still CURRENTLY how it works and you still have to offer the physical boxes. I said "soon to be" - that could take years. To me, that's "soon." It's more about the obvious direction we are going. The fact that people are even asking how much longer Tivo will be relevant kind of proves the point. We all know where this is heading. DirecTV is also heavily investing in their streaming service, as is Dish and even Comcast is developing the heck out of their Xfinity app.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

BNBTivo said:


> Of course they are. Because it's still CURRENTLY how it works and you still have to offer the physical boxes. I said "soon to be" - that could take years. To me, that's "soon." It's more about the obvious direction we are going. The fact that people are even asking how much longer Tivo will be relevant kind of proves the point. We all know where this is heading. DirecTV is also heavily investing in their streaming service, as is Dish and even Comcast is developing the heck out of their Xfinity app.


Well I mean come on.. At some point we will have all electric cars and flying cars.. Does that mean gas engines are soon to be irrelevant?


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Joe3 said:


> The streaming crybaby billionaire players are the screaming crybaby billionaire players of cable.


More realistic is the millions of shareholders (including grandmas within their 401K) are hoping to see a reasonable return on their investment. Along with the hundred of thousands of employees hoping to keep their jobs... which I guess is why they deserve to be billionaires.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Charles R said:


> More realistic is the millions of shareholders (including grandmas within their 401K) are hoping to see a reasonable return on their investment. Along with the hundred of thousands of employees hoping to keep their jobs... which I guess is why they deserve to be billionaires.


Comparing poor grandmas on fixed incomes to billionaires as deserving caretakers of poor little old ladies. The Apple Annie storytelling for billionaires.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

BNBTivo said:


> The technology is the clear direction for how we'll receive the content soon.


You would be correct if not for a common false assumption, technology drives content. It doesn't in this case. It's the other way around. People will not jump because they can hear swear words on tv. People will not jump unless it save them money for equal value.


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## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

Streaming is about clicking and watching a show when you have the time on your schedule. Don’t see why you would want to record something as I can watch at any time on a streaming app a show. Not like over the air broadcast tv which is what TiVo is about.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

EWiser said:


> Streaming is about clicking and watching a show when you have the time on your schedule. Don't see why you would want to record something as I can watch at any time on a streaming app a show. Not like over the air broadcast tv which is what TiVo is about.


Streaming is not about many popular assumptions. Especially, the assumption you can watch anything you want on a streaming app. You are free to watch anything they want you to watch. You are not in control of your content and how long its available, which is what TiVo is about by putting you in control once it appears in your shows.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BNBTivo said:


> Tivo OTA, proabably relevant for a little while longer. Tivo Cabelcard? Already irrelevant. Having a hard wired service in to your house with a physical box and hard drives and all that nonsense is archaic as heck.


Sorry but, I have a 150GB monthly cap on my DSL line--recording OTA content rather than streaming is way relevant. And call me a libertarian when it comes to my content: I don't trust that a streaming service is going to have what I want available when I then want it.


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## spiderpumpkin (Dec 1, 2017)

BNBTivo said:


> Tivo OTA, proabably relevant for a little while longer. Tivo Cabelcard? Already irrelevant. Having a hard wired service in to your house with a physical box and hard drives and all that nonsense is archaic as heck.


I love having the ability to have 6 live shows buffering or recording on my Tivo. When I tried the X1 I immediately missed having 6 tuners always going and the trick play features.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Not sure Tivo is relevant today. But it still works. Does the job. It is a tech that is on its way out. But it is going to be years yet.


We'll know the end is near when someone on this forum gets a notice that their Tivo is no longer compatible with their cable company.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

TiVo is not relevant. Never has been. Always been a niche player surviving on the proceeds from law suits and extortion. More niche than ever. Poorer product since Rovi moved in. Surviving off fire sales. Ok with my, of course, as I have paid less than $300 per TiVo -- which is just a little more than they are worth. FWIW, I own five TiVo Roamios and two Minis and love them.


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

Once QAM and ASTC (current) delivery are gone, DVRs as we know them will go away. Sure, you'll be able to record an IPTV stream, but only using the provider's DVR service. ATSC 3.0 will probably have some kind of DRM attached to it. Ultimately the content providers want to control how you watch the content.

TiVo has filled a unique demand, allowing users to time shift, skip ads, and, within restrictions, place shift. I have been able to use it relatively inexpensively for the past decade. But I don't see buying a new DVR - both cable and the DVRs are becoming too expensive.

As I understand it, YTTV is now an example of a "good" cloud DVR for a good price. But Google is an ad company and I'm very cautious about continuing to allow us to skip ads.


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

trip1eX said:


> It is a tech that is on its way out. But it is going to be years yet..


The inertia of forcing users to upgrade to new boxes to remove cable cards while fighting off cheaper streaming services will take at least 5 years. I remember how long it took my local Cox area to go from "we're rolling out switched digital video soon" to "actually now it's turning on." That was at least 3-5 years.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

powrcow said:


> The inertia of forcing users to upgrade to new boxes to remove cable cards while fighting off cheaper streaming services will take at least 5 years. I remember how long it took my local Cox area to go from "we're rolling out switched digital video soon" to "actually now it's turning on." That was at least 3-5 years.


Yeah I think these things move slow. That's why i said years. It could be 5.

The difference here is people are leaving as it is. They want to leave. And they are being led away by services like Netflix or YTTV.

For me I feel like I will say goodbye to Tivo before 5 years. Hell it could be at the end of this month. I think my cable deal expires.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Why worry, the world is ending in 12 years, 6years left with Tivo, thats 1/2 way there. Buy a Tivo Today, no money down , $25 a month.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Joe3 said:


> Comparing poor grandmas on fixed incomes to billionaires as deserving caretakers of poor little old ladies.


Why shouldn't they be caretakers? Without them (job creation) grandma wouldn't be on fixed income (Social Security would be long (even more so) broke. Besides how else could they give billions away?..

_The list ranks 50 of the country's biggest donors, and in 2018 the group gave $7.8 billion to charitable causes - which is much less than last year. In 2017, the Philanthropy 50 gave $14.7 billion, according to the Chronicle._

Now admittedly I tend to look at the wealthy differently than some people... I believe they create (public) wealth not take it away.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

wizwor said:


> TiVo is not relevant. Never has been. Always been a niche player surviving on the proceeds from law suits and extortion. More niche than ever. Poorer product since Rovi moved in. Surviving off fire sales. Ok with my, of course, as I have paid less than $300 per TiVo -- which is just a little more than they are worth. FWIW, I own five TiVo Roamios and two Minis and love them.


I'm not sure what the word "relevant" means here. My TiVo boxes certainly have been relevant to me for the past 12+ years, and remain relevant to me today. They have allowed me more enjoyment of television and movies, and more life to the day, between SkipMode, trick and skip play, and QuickMode.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

Joe3 said:


> You would be correct if not for a common false assumption, technology drives content. It doesn't in this case. It's the other way around. People will not jump because they can hear swear words on tv. People will not jump unless it save them money for equal value.


It's like the people who went kicking and screaming in to the digital age of music and movies. Tivo is Blockbuster video. The idea of having physical media is ridiculous now, other than a few red boxes, it's nonexistent. And how fast did that happen? Pretty damn fast. The idea of physical hard drive video recorders and cable boxes is the same thing. Its outdated. Live TV streaming was fringe, big time, just a few years ago. And now it's gaining huge momentum. Just look at the players now... Dish, Directv both have steaming. Disney has Hulu and is expanding it fast. Etc. Everyone knows, clearly, where we are headed.

Hard drive recorders are also not good for content owners. They will also be the ones pushing towards cloud and streaming. Physically recording shows and saving then to a hard drive will be something we laugh about much sooner than you think. The same we burning CDs is funny.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

EWiser said:


> Streaming is about clicking and watching a show when you have the time on your schedule. Don't see why you would want to record something as I can watch at any time on a streaming app a show. Not like over the air broadcast tv which is what TiVo is about.


Streaming services offer the local channels along with unlimited dvr and tuners. Plus all the on demand stuff.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> Sorry but, I have a 150GB monthly cap on my DSL line--recording OTA content rather than streaming is way relevant. And call me a libertarian when it comes to my content: I don't trust that a streaming service is going to have what I want available when I then want it.


That's another discussion. Data caps exist because the cable providers are also the internet providers. They are arbitrary and designed to get you to do exactly what you are doing. That is rapidly changing with uncapped services disrupting the market. The cable companies will lose that battle and its happening fast. Even rural LTE can be purchased uncapped for a reasonable price. Anyone with att fiber lines can already get cheap uncapped. I'd be surprised to see data caps at all 3 to 5 years from now. Maybe sooner. Remember when you only got 150 minutes on your cell plan...


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

spiderpumpkin said:


> I love having the ability to have 6 live shows buffering or recording on my Tivo. When I tried the X1 I immediately missed having 6 tuners always going and the trick play features.


You should try YouTube TV. I currently have 14 live shows recording right now... I could do 40 if I wanted. And it's not overwriting any other shows to do it, either. In fact, I could have 6 accounts all recording dozens of different channels at the same time, providing a customized experience for each person in the household. But we just have a kids account and the adults. The kids get a much more kid centric experience obviously.

As I mentioned in the comment you responded to, the concept of "tuners" is like talking about VHS tapes at this point. It's funny.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BNBTivo said:


> That's another discussion. Data caps exist because the cable providers are also the internet providers. They are arbitrary and designed to get you to do exactly what you are doing. That is rapidly changing with uncapped services disrupting the market. The cable companies will lose that battle and its happening fast. Even rural LTE can be purchased uncapped for a reasonable price. Anyone with att fiber lines can already get cheap uncapped. I'd be surprised to see data caps at all 3 to 5 years from now. Maybe sooner. Remember when you only got 150 minutes on your cell plan...


That all may be true--but it doesn't negate that factor of the relevance of my TiVo DVRs for me, in the past and currently.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

trip1eX said:


> Yeah I think these things move slow. That's why i said years. It could be 5.
> 
> The difference here is people are leaving as it is. They want to leave. And they are being led away by services like Netflix or YTTV.
> 
> For me I feel like I will say goodbye to Tivo before 5 years. Hell it could be at the end of this month. I think my cable deal expires.


I think you are about right with your assessment.



powrcow said:


> Once QAM and ASTC (current) delivery are gone, DVRs as we know them will go away. Sure, you'll be able to record an IPTV stream, but only using the provider's DVR service. ATSC 3.0 will probably have some kind of DRM attached to it. Ultimately the content providers want to control how you watch the content.
> 
> TiVo has filled a unique demand, allowing users to time shift, skip ads, and, within restrictions, place shift. I have been able to use it relatively inexpensively for the past decade. But I don't see buying a new DVR - both cable and the DVRs are becoming too expensive.
> 
> As I understand it, YTTV is now an example of a "good" cloud DVR for a good price. But Google is an ad company and I'm very cautious about continuing to allow us to skip ads.


YTTV is the clear winner right now. The interface, search, and just overall experience is stellar, just really, really good. Plus unlimited dvr. Hulu, once they upgrade their live interface will be more interesting due to their Hulu catalog and how they can include that. But you are right about ads. For example, certain programs will force you to the on demand version the next day and won't let you skip ads even though you recorded. It's very rare but a few programs do this. All the more reason it's so obvious that this is where we are headed. Content owners want control. And it could suck! Don't get me wrong, not everything is gravy with streaming and it's going to take time to figure it all out.



powrcow said:


> The inertia of forcing users to upgrade to new boxes to remove cable cards while fighting off cheaper streaming services will take at least 5 years. I remember how long it took my local Cox area to go from "we're rolling out switched digital video soon" to "actually now it's turning on." That was at least 3-5 years.


I think 5 years is a realistic time line. With the resale value of tivo, however, that is something to consider. It's why I personally pulled the trigger recently, while the tivos still have a ton of value. As mentioned prior, selling my tivos has covered YTTV for about the next 3 1/2 years.. That's basically free cable, man! (not really)


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## ncsercs (May 5, 2001)

Torrent is _my_ friend.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

I strongly believe the question asked can only be answered by TiVo in regards to its own relevance.

I believe it will be answered with the New Series 7 TiVo Edge one way or the other. If TiVo has to work on it more and delay its release to get it right, I would welcome it as a good sign Tivo understands what's at stake. If TiVo gets it wrong, again, then TiVo has already been mismanaged out of business through its own inertia long before today and the predictions of TiVo being in existence in five years are way too generous.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

BNBTivo said:


> It's like the people who went kicking and screaming in to the digital age of music and movies. Tivo is Blockbuster video. The idea of having physical media is ridiculous now, other than a few red boxes, it's nonexistent. And how fast did that happen? Pretty damn fast. The idea of physical hard drive video recorders and cable boxes is the same thing. Its outdated. Live TV streaming was fringe, big time, just a few years ago. And now it's gaining huge momentum. Just look at the players now... Dish, Directv both have steaming. Disney has Hulu and is expanding it fast. Etc. Everyone knows, clearly, where we are headed.
> 
> Hard drive recorders are also not good for content owners. They will also be the ones pushing towards cloud and streaming. Physically recording shows and saving then to a hard drive will be something we laugh about much sooner than you think. The same we burning CDs is funny.


This won't fly in the parts of the country that won't see reasonable high speed internet for some time. And 5G won't solve it either. There are places that only get TV with a satellite dish, no ota and no cable. This won't change anytime soon. Physical media is still thing in these areas.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Mikeguy said:


> I'm not sure what the word "relevant" means here. My TiVo boxes certainly have been relevant to me for the past 12+ years, and remain relevant to me today. They have allowed me more enjoyment of television and movies, and more life to the day, between SkipMode, trick and skip play, and QuickMode.


I know. I like mine too. "Pertaining or relating directly and significantly to the matter at hand." I guess the real question is what is meant by 'significantly' and what is the 'matter at hand'. If the matter at hand is television, and significantly means more than a couple million households, then TiVo isn't. If, on the other hand, the matter at hand is DVRs at your house and mine, and significant means more than one and for more than a couple years, the TiVo may, indeed, be relevant.

OP is suggesting that TiVo is one model away from irrelevance. The scope is industry and I don't think TiVo has ever been more than a niche product (despite the fact that its name has become synonymous with recording television).


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

The Tivo user interface, for family use, is still the most straightforward and friendly there is. Especially (obviously) for families that have used it for years. With pyTivo and a properly organized home LAN library (my problem, not theirs), 50-60 TB of online good TV and movies from the late 1910s to the present look like just one big Tivo to them. I've tried to wean and expand consciousness (I have all kinds of streaming available for their use) but Tivo is the one. And that's Tivo "My Shows", period, nothing else exists.

Because I have the feeling that monopolistic strangleholds are coming on quality streaming content from the last 100 years, I'm just as happy to have a massive library in-house and available forever. I think we may be in the last golden age of content availability at reasonable cost for a very long time. Local storage is dirt cheap.

Personally, most of my alone time I watch stuff via PLEX and a wide range of streaming sources through an invidia shield, but even I kinda like the Tivo too.

Tivo is going to be relevant to our household years after it's been abandoned by Rovi, i*f I can keep the boxes running as playback devices*.

EDIT: Added bold to text that wasn't understood.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Wil said:


> Tivo is going to be relevant to our household years after it's been abandoned by Rovi, if I can keep the boxes running as playback devices.


Unfortunately, Rovi has a record of abandoning unprofitable customers. Fortunately for DTVPal users, when Rovi pulled the plug on their 'Lifetime' service, the DVR was able to provide a guide using PSIP data. When Rovi is done with TiVo, the boxes will simple stop working. I don't think that day is near, but it's coming.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

BNBTivo said:


> It's like the people who went kicking and screaming in to the digital age of music and movies. Tivo is Blockbuster video. The idea of having physical media is ridiculous now, other than a few red boxes, it's nonexistent. And how fast did that happen? Pretty damn fast. The idea of physical hard drive video recorders and cable boxes is the same thing. Its outdated. Live TV streaming was fringe, big time, just a few years ago. And now it's gaining huge momentum. Just look at the players now... Dish, Directv both have steaming. Disney has Hulu and is expanding it fast. Etc. Everyone knows, clearly, where we are headed.
> 
> Hard drive recorders are also not good for content owners. They will also be the ones pushing towards cloud and streaming. Physically recording shows and saving then to a hard drive will be something we laugh about much sooner than you think. The same we burning CDs is funny.


Maybe you missed the news but Directv is releasing a physical box that will be REQUIRED for its new streaming service


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

tenthplanet said:


> This won't fly in the parts of the country that won't see reasonable high speed internet for some time. And 5G won't solve it either. There are places that only get TV with a satellite dish, no ota and no cable. This won't change anytime soon. Physical media is still thing in these areas.


There will always be those on the edge where only physical media will work but they wont be enough to keep a company rich so they will get the crumbs of technology.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Wil said:


> The Tivo user interface, for family use, is still the most straightforward and friendly there is. Especially (obviously) for families that have used it for years. With pyTivo and a properly organized home LAN library (my problem, not theirs), 50-60 TB of online good TV and movies from the late 1910s to the present look like just one big Tivo to them. I've tried to wean and expand consciousness (I have all kinds of streaming available for their use) but Tivo is the one. And that's Tivo "My Shows", period, nothing else exists.
> 
> Because I have the feeling that monopolistic strangleholds are coming on quality streaming content from the last 100 years, I'm just as happy to have a massive library in-house and available forever. I think we may be in the last golden age of content availability at reasonable cost for a very long time. Local storage is dirt cheap.
> 
> ...


TiVo fans will be there till the end just like some are still using and swear by Windows Media Center. If you love it, you can keep using it - at least until it just cant be used anymore. Right now no one is being forced to move to streaming. More choices are good and no one needs to have to defend their choice. It's what we personally want. Statistics will show us all what most people want and are moving towards regardless of what we want or think.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

compnurd said:


> Maybe you missed the news but Directv is releasing a physical box that will be REQUIRED for its new streaming service


Can you show me a source that says the AT&T box will be REQUIRED for DTVNOW? The point of the box is to recapture people ditching satellite. And it's a clever way to essentially offer cable service by leveraging the DTV/AT&T brand name with people who otherwise aren't familiar with streaming. It's also a way to drastically reduce install/labor costs as there is no more putting dishes on roofs, no cable wiring, etc. With the boxes, a satellite company is basically a cable company with low overhead and leveraging a streaming service they already have. Maybe you didn't catch it, but this is all the more proof that streaming is coming.


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## tommiet (Oct 28, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> If it doesn't outlive me, I'm going to be pissed.


Start pissing now Joe!


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

dms92969 said:


> Please do not get me wrong. I love Tivo. I just purchased a new Tivo to update my Premiere. The issue is that with all these companies (Comcast, Verizon, etc) raising their prices, and companies may not be willing to haggle to much (they will just raise Internet prices to make it up). People are going to streaming services instead, what is the point of Tivo if can just stream all the shows. What will be the point of recording etc.


What is the point of TiVo? TiVo was invented back in the days when people had to rearrange their lives to conform to TV schedules, or miss their favorite programs, or figure out primitive VCR equipment to time-shift TV and skip over ads. TiVo was a VCR replacement that was easier to use and more convenient. No flashing 12:00 on a TiVo.

20 years later, cable TV has peaked and is on the decline. DVRs have become a commodity, and are not even needed when most programs are always available on-demand. Cable is moving away from CableCARD. OTA is moving towards ATSC 3.0. Consumers are moving towards streaming.

It's only a matter of time before Rovi can no longer sustain its DVR business. Is that in one year or 10 years, I don't know. The big question is will our TiVos continue to function without Rovi support, or will they become doorstops. My dream scenario would be that Rovi open-sources the TiVo software, allowing the open source community to keep it alive.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

BNBTivo said:


> Can you show me a source that says the AT&T box will be REQUIRED for DTVNOW? The point of the box is to recapture people ditching satellite. And it's a clever way to essentially offer cable service by leveraging the DTV/AT&T brand name with people who otherwise aren't familiar with streaming. It's also a way to drastically reduce install/labor costs as there is no more putting dishes on roofs, no cable wiring, etc. With the boxes, a satellite company is basically a cable company with low overhead and leveraging a streaming service they already have. Maybe you didn't catch it, but this is all the more proof that streaming is coming.


From THERE WEBSITE
Do I have to use a specific device to watch TV?
The new AT&T TV experience comes with our next-gen device, so you're all set to watch on your biggest screen

To add also. DirectvNow no longer exists

It is now ATT TV Now


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## ashipkowski (Oct 8, 2008)

compnurd said:


> From THERE WEBSITE
> Do I have to use a specific device to watch TV?
> The new AT&T TV experience comes with our next-gen device, so you're all set to watch on your biggest screen
> 
> ...


The branding stinks, as many have pointed out, but AT&T TV is not the same as AT&T TV Now. The former is a new service with a required box, the latter is DirecTV Now with a new name.

AT&T Killing Off 'DirecTV Now' Name as It Launches AT&T TV Streaming Service

Edit: To be clear, a relevant extract from the article: "Both the AT&T TV and AT&T TV Now services [...]"


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Here is an article in the LA Times that shows how AT&T was lying to the Justice Department all along and is screwing everything up for the other big lying conglomerates. Or, as I like to say, billionaires and their billion dollar companies should not count their yachts before they're docked.

Column: AT&T's promise of better pay-TV prices and service is 'bordering on the absurd'

I understand you might hit a pay wall and I apologize. I put the article down here if you're still interested.

*AT&T's promise of better pay-TV prices and service is 'bordering on the absurd' *
By David Lazarus, *Los Angeles Times* - Aug. 6, 2019

When AT&T acquired Time Warner last year for $85 billion, the companies said the deal would be great for consumers, who would benefit from lower prices and improved service.

The Justice Department said the opposite, predicting the merger would give AT&T so much market power that price hikes and channel blackouts were all but inevitable.

And now we know. The government was right.

AT&T wasted no time in raising the price of its DirecTV satellite-TV service by $5 a month. It then raised the price of its DirectTV Now streaming service by $10 a month. (The company said last week DirecTV Now is being renamed AT&T TV Now.)

More than 6.5 million of AT&T's DirecTV and U-verse pay-TV customers are currently cut off from CBS channels because AT&T says CBS wants too much money for its programming.

Meanwhile, more than 12 million Dish Network and Sling TV subscribers have lost access to AT&T's HBO and Cinemax channels because, according to Dish, AT&T wants too much money for its own programming.

Put more succinctly, AT&T, after raising subscriber costs, wants to pay as little as possible for channels included on its pay-TV services. But it wants as much as possible from other pay-TV services for its own channels.

And it's willing to hold consumers hostage to get what it wants.

"When you start seeing blackouts, it's obvious you're looking at a merger that's not serving consumers very well," said Herbert Hovenkamp, a law professor at the University of Pennsylvania and one of the nation's top antitrust authorities.

He told me it's becoming increasingly clear that a federal judge erred when he ruled in a 172-page decision that there was little to fear from the "vertical merger" AT&T and Time Warner were proposing.

"We're now paying the price for that decision," Hovenkamp said.

U.S. District Judge Richard J. Leon ruled last year - and was subsequently upheld by an appellate court - that the government was mistaken when it warned of consumers being harmed by the merger.

Leon said it would be counter-productive for a merged AT&T/Time Warner to withhold its own channels from competing pay-TV providers or black out competitors' channels, and thus the likelihood of this happening was low.

"The evidence of his being wrong is bordering on the absurd," said Christopher Sagers, a professor at the Cleveland-Marshall College of Law.

Mark Lemley, a law professor at Stanford University, said having the same company produce and deliver content "leads to lots of problems."

"We'd be better off if you got your internet and cable access from one company, and could choose what content you wanted from independent content providers," he said.

AT&T withdrew its HBO and Cinemax channels from Dish, as well as Dish's Sling TV streaming service, last November after the two companies failed to agree on financial terms for a new contract.

"Plain and simple, the merger created for AT&T immense power over consumers," Andy LeCuyer, Dish's senior vice president of programming, said in a statement.

"AT&T no longer has incentive to come to an agreement on behalf of consumer choice," he said. "Instead, it's been given the power to grab more money or steal away customers."

CBS channels went dark on AT&T's pay-TV services last month after AT&T, while demanding more money from Dish, complained that CBS was seeking "unprecedented increases" in programming fees.

"CBS appears intent on delaying negotiations until the risk of consumer harm is greater," Thomas Tyrer, an AT&T spokesman, said in a statement without any sense of irony. "They want to raise prices and limit consumer choice at a time when customers have made it crystal clear they demand the opposite."

He declined to comment on the dispute between AT&T and Dish. But HBO said when the blackout began in November that Dish "is making it extremely difficult, responding to our good-faith attempts with unreasonable terms."

Einer Elhauge, a professor at Harvard Law School, said the current circumstances "seem to be precisely what the Department of Justice predicted would happen after the merger of AT&T and Time Warner, and precisely what AT&T successfully persuaded the trial court was implausible for it to ever do post-merger."

His verdict? "It looks like the court just got it wrong."

If so, what if anything can be done?

There was once a time when regulators decided AT&T had too much power over the phone industry and decided to break up the company.

I wonder if the same case now can be made for AT&T's power over the TV industry.

And not just AT&T. There's also Comcast, which, along with being the country's largest cable operator, owns NBCUniversal and all the programming resources of a major movie studio and TV networks.

The antitrust experts I spoke with said AT&T's post-merger behavior makes a strong case for separating pay-TV and programming companies - but it may be too late to fix the problem.

"After a merger has gone through, it is extremely difficult to undo," said Michael Carrier, a professor at Rutgers Law School.

He's right. But that doesn't mean a lawsuit or legislation should be off the table.

When a single corporation controls both content and distribution, it can negotiate from a position of unmatched strength and all but dictate terms to competitors.

Imagine if Disney - owner of its namesake content brand, as well as ABC, 20th Century Fox, Pixar, Marvel and "Star Wars" - acquired Charter Communications.

(Full disclosure: The Los Angeles Times partners with Spectrum on a nightly cable show.)

As it happens, AT&T's self-serving behavior may be sufficient to keep other companies' merger ambitions in check.

The experts say AT&T has given federal officials and consumer advocates plenty of ammo for the next time a major telecom company and a major media company want to tie the knot.

So get used to AT&T playing rough. Its upcoming HBO Max streaming service is expected to be more expensive than all rival plans, perhaps costing as much as $18 a month.

But don't expect your Spectrum cable technician to show up wearing Mickey Mouse ears any time soon.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

Streamers have a lot to work on also. Hey Roku and Apple TV, how about a normal size remote?


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Joe3 said:


> Here is an article in the LA Times that shows how AT&T was lying to the Justice Department all along and is screwing everything up for the other big lying conglomerates. Or, as I like to say, billionaires and their billion dollar companies should not count their yachts before they're docked.
> 
> Column: AT&T's promise of better pay-TV prices and service is 'bordering on the absurd'
> 
> ...


It's not like we have some kind of right to programming. If a company doesn't have what you want, change. We have more options now than at any time in my life. I didn't like the programming on DTV Now so I switched to YTTV. Takes like 2 minutes. If you don't like AT&T then use one of the others. If you don't want to pay that much for HBO then don't sign up for HBO.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

schatham said:


> Streamers have a lot to work on also. Hey Roku and Apple TV, how about a normal size remote?


You don't really need a full size remote when there are only about 5-6 commands total. 4 directions, select/OK/enter and maybe a back or home button. That's about all the commands a streamer has isn't it?


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## TomRaz (Mar 1, 2002)

Well my Tivo Bolt + had the dreaded 4 flashing lights and the hard drive failed
While I waited for a new hard drive that I purchased i.e. Toshiba 3TB from OWC and Tivo actually sent me a replacement Bolt + VOC and of course both arrived the same day
For the life of me I tried to use the new Bolt + VOC with the new software interface, OMG it was horrible, the search function was the worst, anyway I replaced my hard drive and got my old unit back up and running. 
The reason I mentioned my latest issue is even on a bad day when my Tivo had a failure, it is still better than have a cable company DVR
I also tried You Tube TV as well as Hulu TV for live streaming i.e. cutting the cable, You Tube was actually pretty good and the dvr in the cloud was functional
Hulu TV was a horrible software interface

So based on my findings the Tivo still has a place because of its "special sauce" software i.e. pre Hydra

I realize the day may come when it does not have a purpose, but so far after 20+ years it still is the best DVR out there


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## ManeJon (Apr 14, 2018)

Where I live the cable TV company (Spectrum ) only offers 2 tuners and NO whole home dvr so something like TIVO is very relevant to me. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess the majority of people aren't streaming but using the local cable because that is what they know and understand. Call them up and they do it all, maybe not well but they do it. 
To me trying to remember which source is where a program I want would be a pain is that Netflix or Amazon or???
when someone comes up with something that combines all the streaming services and one guide the combines all.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

mschnebly said:


> It's not like we have some kind of right to programming. If a company doesn't have what you want, change. We have more options now than at any time in my life. I didn't like the programming on DTV Now so I switched to YTTV. Takes like 2 minutes. If you don't like AT&T then use one of the others. If you don't want to pay that much for HBO then don't sign up for HBO.


Yes, but who knows how long.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Joe3 said:


> Yes, but who knows how long.


A lot of TiVo folks are saying down worry that TiVo will be good for another 5-10 years. I would guess if cable can last then streaming can last. The competition in streaming is far greater than cable ever was.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

compnurd said:


> From THERE WEBSITE
> Do I have to use a specific device to watch TV?
> The new AT&T TV experience comes with our next-gen device, so you're all set to watch on your biggest screen
> 
> ...


I think the point is that the box is not required for DTVN (now AT&T TV NOW). It is only required for the upcoming premium streaming service AT&T TV (without the NOW). Makes perfect sense for them to require a premium device for a premium experience functionally equivalent to the satellite TV service it will be replacing. ATV, Fire TV and Rokus don't have numbers, record button, channel buttons, guide button, etc. that ex-satellite users will demand. (I have the required box right now and use it with AT&T TV NOW. But I also still run AT&T TV NOW on all my old streaming devices. I won't be able to afford the AT&T TV service when it comes out.).


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

Rovi had no qualms about abandoning former customers, as they demonstrated with their purchase of GemStar, followed by the shutdown of guide information to Public Broadcasters and some CBS affiliates back in 2012. That guide information was re-broadcast so that DVR or VCR systems using that guide technology could set up scheduled programs, without the need for a dial-up or internet connection to the service. I had one of the original Channel Master branded DVR's, which worked great, until Rovi pulled the plug on GemStar- and then it became a brick. PSP guide data is something of a joke, and the depth of the data provided via PSP varies widely by market, and by broadcaster.

Pure speculation, but I suspect that over time, TiVo will continually increase the monthly subscription fees for guide services, continuing to monetize the loyalty to the product. As long as they can get cash from the cow, theywill continue to milk it. It's a strategy that is playing out in newspapers, where the home delivery and single copy prices have been raised as a means of off-setting ad revenue loss in other areas.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BNBTivo said:


> Streaming services offer the local channels along with unlimited dvr and tuners. Plus all the on demand stuff.


Better tell consumer reports who is reversing their happy outlook for streaming. A big issue is the lack of local channels in many areas, including big cities. There is not any single streaming service that covers every OTA channel in my area even for the .1 channels. Sub channels? Forget it.

Unlimited DVRs? Who? Almost every single one has hour limits or limits the time you can keep a recording. Most have both.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

mschnebly said:


> A lot of TiVo folks are saying down worry that TiVo will be good for another 5-10 years. I would guess if cable can last then streaming can last. The competition in streaming is far greater than cable ever was.


Streaming is beginning to look like 'Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome' ..."Two men enter, One man leaves " !


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

mdavej said:


> I think the point is that the box is not required for DTVN (now AT&T TV NOW). It is only required for the upcoming premium streaming service AT&T TV (without the NOW). Makes perfect sense for them to require a premium device for a premium experience functionally equivalent to the satellite TV service it will be replacing. ATV, Fire TV and Rokus don't have numbers, record button, channel buttons, guide button, etc. that ex-satellite users will demand. (I have the required box right now and use it with AT&T TV NOW. But I also still run AT&T TV NOW on all my old streaming devices. I won't be able to afford the AT&T TV service when it comes out.).


I have a Roku, a Fire stick and Apple TV that I've used and I've subscribed to several streaming services over the last year and never needed the numbers, record button, channel buttons, guide button, etc for any of them. Honestly, I don't know what you'd even use them for. The guides don't have numbers and just click on the screen where it says record. They are just silly easy to control. They are not trying to reproduce the cable box experience.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> I have a Roku, a Fire stick and Apple TV that I've used and I've subscribed to several streaming services over the last year and never needed the numbers, record button, channel buttons, guide button, etc for any of them. Honestly, I don't know what you'd even use them for. The guides don't have numbers and just click on the screen where it says record. They are just silly easy to control. They are not trying to reproduce the cable box experience.


Umm... yes, the ARE trying to reproduce the cable box experience. That's the whole point of the special box and remote. And the guide in the app that runs on the box DOES have channel numbers. From personal experience, it makes a huge difference. You can surf from one channel to the next with one button, access the guide with a single button press, page up/down through the guide, one touch record, direct channel entry, etc. The user experience is virtually identical to a cable box. I much, much, much prefer that to the average streaming app controls.


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## tommiet (Oct 28, 2005)

Year 2000 - Tivo was so far ahead, many other companies "borrowed" their code. Today, VOD all but makes the DVR useless. Some of us will always want our recordings local and products will be available for us. Tivo was the king @ one time and will probably be the first to call it quits. I'll continue to use my Plex server and my Recast long after DVR's die.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

mschnebly said:


> I have a Roku, a Fire stick and Apple TV that I've used and I've subscribed to several streaming services over the last year and never needed the numbers, record button, channel buttons, guide button, etc for any of them. Honestly, I don't know what you'd even use them for. The guides don't have numbers and just click on the screen where it says record. They are just silly easy to control. They are not trying to reproduce the cable box experience.


Those and Tivo remotes are perfect navigate by touch remotes, sit in the dark, never have to look at the buttons.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

A related question is: Will discussions on the future of TiVo continue even after TiVo's are no longer in use? 

I think the most important question about the future of video is the cost of distribution, e.g., will much of the population continue to have no provider competition for the broadband pipeline (whether for cable or internet)? Other issues such as bundles, ala carte, DVR features, content quality, availability and cost will be naturally resolved by the operation of the free market. Not necessarily to the satisfaction of all, i.e., if your desires for hardware features or content are far outside the mainstream, you will pay more for what you want -- or it may not even be available.

To me whether TiVo is relevant in the future, or how successful the corporation is, isn't important. If you have a sentimental loyalty to TiVo, just remember almost all the people who pioneered that wonderful DVR functionality are no longer involved. So what is the logical basis for your loyalty?. Why should you care what brand name is on the devices or services that give you what you want?


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

mdavej said:


> Umm... yes, the ARE trying to reproduce the cable box experience. That's the whole point of the special box and remote. And the guide in the app that runs on the box DOES have channel numbers. From personal experience, it makes a huge difference. You can surf from one channel to the next with one button, access the guide with a single button press, page up/down through the guide, one touch record, direct channel entry, etc. The user experience is virtually identical to a cable box. I much, much, much prefer that to the average streaming app controls.


You might be trying to reproduce the cable box but I'm sure not and I don't think most people are. The good thing is that you can keep your cable box (at least for now) and I can move on to a different way. Choice is great. I really love the YTTV app for the way it's laid out.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

No idea, but we will use Tivo for as long as we can. I have 3 Tivos and use over the air. We just dumped cable TV as the price kept going up. 

$65/mo. for internet
$11/mo for Netflix

I just switched ATT cell service to unlimited, which includes their TV service, BUT, I didn't realize you can only stream 1 thing at a time, which stinks. We have 5 phones on the plan ($190 with Dh's corporate discount and his company pays $60 of it., so $130 out of pocket for us.)

We thought about YouTube TV, but my kids don't watch TV at all, and DH and I are fine with what we have now, so unless we see a need, we will just stick to what we have.

I may pick up a Fire TV recast if they go back down to Prime day prices as I would like to try one out, but not for close to $300, for that price, I will stick with Tivo.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

tommiet said:


> Year 2000 - Tivo was so far ahead, many other companies "borrowed" their code. *Today, VOD all but makes the DVR useless. *Some of us will always want our recordings local and products will be available for us. Tivo was the king @ one time and will probably be the first to call it quits. I'll continue to use my Plex server and my Recast long after DVR's die.


If one is happy with VOD's varying limitations and needs: content that can change at any time (including disappearing), the need for an always-on Internet connection, the need for a high Internet data cap, and the limitations (if any) of the provider's VOD box, including limited (if any) trickplay capabilities (such as no SkipMode-like capability, no AutoSkip capability, no QuickMode-like capability, and lesser trickplay quality and capabilities).


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

tommiet said:


> Year 2000 - Tivo was so far ahead, many other companies "borrowed" their code. Today, VOD all but makes the DVR useless.


No, it doesn't if you're a big sports fan that wants to avoid commercials.


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## JackMcC (Aug 11, 2019)

If you're like me and don't want to pay $80/mo for a 75mbps internet connection to stream 4k video and want to record atsc 3.0 4k content over the air, I believe Tivo will satisfy that need when the time arrives in 1-3 years.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mschnebly said:


> I have a Roku, a Fire stick and Apple TV that I've used and I've subscribed to several streaming services over the last year and never needed the numbers, record button, channel buttons, guide button, etc for any of them. Honestly, I don't know what you'd even use them for. The guides don't have numbers and just click on the screen where it says record. They are just silly easy to control. They are not trying to reproduce the cable box experience.


They are pretty similar to the cable experience. IT's linear channels and a guide. But I agree that you don't need numbers etc. And really it's probably simpler to record stuff on YTTV than with a Tivo. One things that bugs me about my Tivo is the amount of button presses that I need in order to record something from the guide. It should be one button press. Done. Windows Media Center was that way a long time ago.

Oh and streaming boxes also have voice so that will make its way into these services if it hasn't already.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Mikeguy said:


> If one is happy with VOD's varying limitations and needs: content that can change at any time (including disappearing), the need for an always-on Internet connection, the need for a high Internet data cap, and the limitations (if any) of the provider's VOD box, including limited (if any) trickplay capabilities (such as no SkipMode-like capability, no AutoSkip capability, no QuickMode-like capability, and lesser trickplay quality and capabilities).


You probably know this but practically no one really cares about most of that. They will fire up Netflix and see something that interests them and start watching.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mschnebly said:


> You probably know this but practically no one really cares about most of that. They will fire up Netflix and see something that interests them and start watching.


Yeah I think people are happy with VoD's strengths.

LIke the lack of hassle of having to remember to record and manage your recordings. Content that doesn't have commercials in the first place. No worrying about missed recordings or clipped recordings. Access to more content than ever before. Access to a greater diversity of content from foreign shows to comedy specials to documentaries to new shows to every episode of old shows going back 50-60+ years.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

mschnebly said:


> You probably know this but practically no one really cares about most of that. They will fire up Netflix and see something that interests them and start watching.


I see that but then I see people (including me) saying the complete opposite (including everyone who owns a DVR?). But perhaps I'm in the vast (classy, lol) minority.


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## ManeJon (Apr 14, 2018)

One of the thing I find interesting in all these similar discussions is that OTA is coming back - a few years ago there were plenty of discussions about how OTA was going to totally disappear very shortly and now it is a needed component to many streaming services. There are probably a few people who are actually using VCR tape machines.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> You might be trying to reproduce the cable box but I'm sure not and I don't think most people are. The good thing is that you can keep your cable box (at least for now) and I can move on to a different way. Choice is great. I really love the YTTV app for the way it's laid out.


I know the future is Netflix type interfaces. But I personally feel like I've got one had tied behind my back when I use a DVR on a streaming device (YTTV or whatever). I much prefer pressing a dedicated guide button or recording list button or enter a channel number rather than dig through a maze of menus or scroll through a guide with hundreds of channels.

In this particular case, where AT&T is doing a direct replacement of grandma's satellite box, it better work exactly like that old box, or grandma is going to switch to a different provider. The DTVN forums are filled with old people who really struggle with a complex interface that has to be controlled by basically one button and the arrow keys. This is what AT&T solves by making their own, full featured box with a full featured remote.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Mikeguy said:


> I see that but then I see people (including me) saying the complete opposite (including everyone who owns a DVR?). But perhaps I'm in the vast (classy, lol) minority.


 No, I think you're right in a majority. This excuse that most people lack something and therefore, are incapable is an ancient and tired cliche. It is a generalizing, and a bit elitist. It's earliest roots can be trace back to racism, antisemitism, based on an unwarranted fear of other people. Those other people are just so happy where they are why spoil it by changing it.

It just doesn't hold up to any facts that are any different and therefore don't want things to be better.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

compnurd said:


> From THERE WEBSITE
> Do I have to use a specific device to watch TV?
> The new AT&T TV experience comes with our next-gen device, so you're all set to watch on your biggest screen
> 
> ...


You are confusing ATT TV and ATT TV Now. "Now" will still be the normal app based steaming product DTVNow is. Att TV will be with their box.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

schatham said:


> Streamers have a lot to work on also. Hey Roku and Apple TV, how about a normal size remote?


Depends on the Roku. The Ultra remote is thicker and feels much better in your hand. I HATE the standard roku remote but love the bigger one. Plus it has a headphone jack for private listening... Which is awesome.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

mdavej said:


> I know the future is Netflix type interfaces. But I personally feel like I've got one had tied behind my back when I use a DVR on a streaming device (YTTV or whatever). I much prefer pressing a dedicated guide button or recording list button or enter a channel number rather than dig through a maze of menus or scroll through a guide with hundreds of channels.
> 
> In this particular case, where AT&T is doing a direct replacement of grandma's satellite box, it better work exactly like that old box, or grandma is going to switch to a different provider. The DTVN forums are filled with old people who really struggle with a complex interface that has to be controlled by basically one button and the arrow keys. This is what AT&T solves by making their own, full featured box with a full featured remote.


Have you used YTTV? You just press the back button on the Roku remote. Voila, at the screen with 3 options. Library (DVR), Home and Guide. It's exactly as many presses to get to the library as on Tivo. There is no maze of menus at all. In fact, it's FAR more simplistic than Tivo. You can also organize the guide so I put the channels I watch the most up top. Fast and easy. Our experience has been that it's much slicker and faster to get to content than the Tivo.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> Better tell consumer reports who is reversing their happy outlook for streaming. A big issue is the lack of local channels in many areas, including big cities. There is not any single streaming service that covers every OTA channel in my area even for the .1 channels. Sub channels? Forget it.
> 
> Unlimited DVRs? Who? Almost every single one has hour limits or limits the time you can keep a recording. Most have both.


I generally watch my shows within 9 months of recording. Needing to keep recorded TV forever like some sort of collection on a Tivo is some level of weird hoarding I'm not in to and I think most others would agree. Not to mention Tivo isn't designed for that. You need the space to be avaliable for new recordings... I also have no desire for the sub local channels that show useless programming. If thats what someone wants, get an antenna. But that's the exception, not the rule. I get all the locals I care about with my streaming service. Not missing a single thing.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> You might be trying to reproduce the cable box but I'm sure not and I don't think most people are. The good thing is that you can keep your cable box (at least for now) and I can move on to a different way. Choice is great. I really love the YTTV app for the way it's laid out.


Yup. It was a bit weird the first day. But I'm so thankful they are not recreating the cable box and instead did a ground up rethinking of how to get the content you want in front of you. It works amazingly well and so simplistic. Was watching TV sitting on the beach today. No clunky steamers or whatever. Just an app on the phone. Cloud content in general is the future and no reason live programming shouldn't be included in that.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

trip1eX said:


> They are pretty similar to the cable experience. IT's linear channels and a guide. But I agree that you don't need numbers etc. And really it's probably simpler to record stuff on YTTV than with a Tivo. One things that bugs me about my Tivo is the amount of button presses that I need in order to record something from the guide. It should be one button press. Done. Windows Media Center was that way a long time ago.
> 
> Oh and streaming boxes also have voice so that will make its way into these services if it hasn't already.


The tivo isn't smart enough to do that. A single press. Show starts early or late, gets cut off. Sports game runs long? Better hope you added time... Didn't add enough time? Miss that buzzer beater!

And you are right. YTTV is astronomicallly better at recording. One click Add To Library. It'll record the game if it runs long, starts early, doesn't matter. It's smart like that. And if you want to record a Premiere League game, it'll ask if you want just the game, everything for that one team, or all league games. Simple as that.

Tivo feels so archaic when it comes to recording, and that's it's main function.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

BNBTivo said:


> You are confusing ATT TV and ATT TV Now. "Now" will still be the normal app based steaming product DTVNow is. Att TV will be with their box.


 Not confusing. You said boxes were going away. They clearly aren't


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BNBTivo said:


> I generally watch my shows within 9 months of recording. Needing to keep recorded TV forever like some sort of collection on a Tivo is some level of weird hoarding I'm not in to and I think most others would agree. Not to mention Tivo isn't designed for that. You need the space to be avaliable for new recordings... I also have no desire for the sub local channels that show useless programming. If thats what someone wants, get an antenna. But that's the exception, not the rule. I get all the locals I care about with my streaming service. Not missing a single thing.


That all is_ your_ use (and from what I've seen here, I doubt that most others would agree with you that keeping TiVo recordings "is some level of weird hoarding"), but alternate use (from yours) is not necessarily the "exception" (and I doubt that it is).

And in my area, the sub-channels show good series from earlier years, classic movies (including Oscar winners), and other equally-good content to the "main" channels. Fortunately, a 3TB hard drive in a TiVo box does a pretty good job for it all.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

compnurd said:


> Not confusing. You said boxes were going away. They clearly aren't


The ATT Box is an Android based streamer. I never said all hardware is going away. But cable/sat boxes are clearly going away and the ATT move proves exactly that. Even ATT's newest TV service is dumping traditional cable boxes and going streaming. How does that suggest Tivo will remain relevant? The only difference is that ATT is trying to lock users in to their own streaming ecosystem, and that's pretty smart I think. At least right now. Streaming boxes need no professional installation, either. Cheaper to provide, maintain, better user experience, etc. And there is no need for a physical hard drive or "minis" that interact with the main box. None of that nonsense. That is old tech and disappearing rapidly.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> That all is_ your_ use (and from what I've seen here, I doubt that most others would agree with you that keeping TiVo recordings "is some level of weird hoarding"), but alternate use (from yours) is not necessarily the "exception" (and I doubt that it is).
> 
> And in my area, the sub-channels show good series from earlier years, classic movies (including Oscar winners), and other equally-good content to the "main" channels. Fortunately, a 3TB hard drive in a TiVo box does a pretty good job for it all.


Again, I'm not at all claiming there aren't hobbyists and fringe users who find value in hoarding live recorded TV shows, with commercials, for eternity on their DVR. What I'm saying is that this is clearly the exception as there is a cord cutting revolution going on and a switch to streaming... It's undeniable. It's what is happening. There will always be a very small market for fringe users. But this topic is about relevance. Fringe/hobbyist stuff isn't relevant.

People that want a specific show can already just purchase that show for a couple dollars without any need for storage, and that's been happening for quite some time. If what you were arguing were true, there would be no digital music industry because everyone would still be recording off the radio with cassettes, which is essentially what you are doing with your TiVo.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

BNBTivo said:


> Again, I'm not at all claiming there aren't hobbyists and fringe users who find value in hoarding live recorded TV shows, with commercials, for eternity on their DVR. What I'm saying is that this is clearly the exception as there is a cord cutting revolution going on and a switch to streaming... It's undeniable. It's what is happening. There will always be a very small market for fringe users. But this topic is about relevance. Fringe/hobbyist stuff isn't relevant.
> 
> People that want a specific show can already just purchase that show for a couple dollars without any need for storage, and that's been happening for quite some time. If what you were arguing were true, there would be no digital music industry because everyone would still be recording off the radio with cassettes, which is essentially what you are doing with your TiVo.


Again, streaming in itself has been a good thing for people for awhile. However, what is happening and you're cheerleading about is not streaming. It is a full blown attempt of a handful of billion dollar conglomerates to go after the cord cutters who were smart enough to escape their control. Mainly, over their wallets by leaving cable. This is them trying to recoupe their losses by using streaming to get the cord cutters back and thinking no will notice what they're doing.

People who believe they should be in control of what they pay for are not fringe users, hobbyists or recording off the radio with cassettes.

Again, TiVo on the other hand, started out like Roku, independent, no dog in the game, and now Roku is one of the most successful streamers on the planet because of their independence. TiVo could have been there too. But TiVo thought they were smarter and made a big mistake. TiVo decided to go to bed with a tired dying old hag, cable, instead of going with newer technology, smart TVs. Along with other things that have been repeated in this community at nauseam.

However, TiVo still holds their own future in their hand that I believe has to be the new Series's 7 Edge. If they should screw it up, again, stick fork in them, they're done.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

BNBTivo said:


> Have you used YTTV? You just press the back button on the Roku remote. Voila, at the screen with 3 options. Library (DVR), Home and Guide. It's exactly as many presses to get to the library as on Tivo. There is no maze of menus at all. In fact, it's FAR more simplistic than Tivo. You can also organize the guide so I put the channels I watch the most up top. Fast and easy. Our experience has been that it's much slicker and faster to get to content than the Tivo.


I was comparing the AT&T box to a Roku/Fire/ATV. I don't really use Tivo anymore. Sounds like Guide is still several button presses on YTTV, Back then a couple of arrows then OK. On the AT&T remote, one button takes you straight to it. If I have 10 favorite channels, even at the top of the list, it's still several button presses. On the AT&T remote, it's 3 buttons max. The list goes on and on. Bottom line, dedicated buttons for functions is still quicker and simpler than using a streaming remote.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mdavej said:


> I know the future is Netflix type interfaces. But I personally feel like I've got one had tied behind my back when I use a DVR on a streaming device (YTTV or whatever). I much prefer pressing a dedicated guide button or recording list button or enter a channel number rather than dig through a maze of menus or scroll through a guide with hundreds of channels.
> 
> In this particular case, where AT&T is doing a direct replacement of grandma's satellite box, it better work exactly like that old box, or grandma is going to switch to a different provider. The DTVN forums are filled with old people who really struggle with a complex interface that has to be controlled by basically one button and the arrow keys. This is what AT&T solves by making their own, full featured box with a full featured remote.


I think they just let grandma die off.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BNBTivo said:


> Again, I'm not at all claiming there aren't hobbyists and fringe users who find value in hoarding live recorded TV shows, with commercials, for eternity on their DVR. What I'm saying is that this is clearly the exception as there is a cord cutting revolution going on and a switch to streaming... It's undeniable. It's what is happening. There will always be a very small market for fringe users. But this topic is about relevance. Fringe/hobbyist stuff isn't relevant.
> 
> People that want a specific show can already just purchase that show for a couple dollars without any need for storage, and that's been happening for quite some time. If what you were arguing were true, there would be no digital music industry because everyone would still be recording off the radio with cassettes, which is essentially what you are doing with your TiVo.


I don't necessarily agree with the extent of many of your conclusions, but you_ do _keep on referring to me as fringe--and so you must know me. 

Separately, on the digital music front, I participate in it but I also rip my purchased CDs or store locally my streamed digital music--with my music or my video content, why do I want to keep on paying Sony, et al. many times over for my same content, when I so easily simply can store my licensed copies here?


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Mikeguy said:


> That all is_ your_ use (and from what I've seen here, I doubt that most others would agree with you that keeping TiVo recordings "is some level of weird hoarding"), but alternate use (from yours) is not necessarily the "exception" (and I doubt that it is).


When you see less than one hundred TiVo users respond to a poll here regarding the interface (perhaps the hottest topic) I think extrapolating anything accurate (or of value) from here is senseless.



Joe3 said:


> It is a full blown attempt of a handful of billion dollar conglomerates to go after the cord cutters who were smart enough to escape their control over their wallets, leaving cable.


More accurately it is content providers simply addressing today's technology and how best they can monetize and protect their content. Ultimately one should expect relatively the same cost (given the typical gradual increase over time) regardless of the delivery method.



> Again, TiVo on the other hand, started out like Roku, independent, no dog in the game, and now Roku is one the most successful streamer on the planet because of their independence.


In the preceding twelve months Roku lost money so I wouldn't call being "most successful" something to aspire to.



> However, TiVo still holds their own future in their hand that I believe has to be the new Series's 7 Edge. If they should screw it up, again, stick fork in them, they're done.


I can't think of one feature (currently missing) that would determine whether I stay or leave TiVo... not one. I can pretty much say any new "feature" would pale to autoskip (for mainstream users). Let's say my Roamio dies tomorrow what feature (that doesn't already exist) would change my mind from replacing it with a Recast?


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

BNBTivo said:


> The ATT Box is an Android based streamer. I never said all hardware is going away. But cable/sat boxes are clearly going away and the ATT move proves exactly that. Even ATT's newest TV service is dumping traditional cable boxes and going streaming. How does that suggest Tivo will remain relevant? The only difference is that ATT is trying to lock users in to their own streaming ecosystem, and that's pretty smart I think. At least right now. Streaming boxes need no professional installation, either. Cheaper to provide, maintain, better user experience, etc. And there is no need for a physical hard drive or "minis" that interact with the main box. None of that nonsense. That is old tech and disappearing rapidly.


Post 11
Physical boxes are going to be disappearing rapidly - which means, bye bye Tivo. There is no doubt that TV will disconnect from a hard wired, physical box experience to full streaming/app based.

So again a streamer box is guess what STILL A PHYSICAL BOX. And regardless if it is custom box built by ATT that runs android. Which could potentially be actually like the next version of TiVo's from Arris


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

mdavej said:


> I was comparing the AT&T box to a Roku/Fire/ATV. I don't really use Tivo anymore. Sounds like Guide is still several button presses on YTTV, Back then a couple of arrows then OK. On the AT&T remote, one button takes you straight to it. If I have 10 favorite channels, even at the top of the list, it's still several button presses. On the AT&T remote, it's 3 buttons max. The list goes on and on. Bottom line, dedicated buttons for functions is still quicker and simpler than using a streaming remote.


On the ATT remote you can do it with 2 buttons. One push the google assistant button and say "Tune CNN", CNN pops up, push Ok you're done. Voice is the future of control.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

tenthplanet said:


> On the ATT remote you can do it with 2 buttons. One push the google assistant button and say "Tune CNN", CNN pops up, push Ok you're done. Voice is the future of control.


I can do that now with my Vox remote


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

compnurd said:


> I can do that now with my Vox remote


Exactly, voice is the future and is already here.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

tenthplanet said:


> Exactly, voice is the future and is already here.


And some people already don't like it (at least, in some uses).


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

Joe3 said:


> Again, streaming in itself has been a good thing for people for awhile. However, what is happening and you're cheerleading about is not streaming. It is a full blown attempt of a handful of billion dollar conglomerates to go after the cord cutters who were smart enough to escape their control. Mainly, over their wallets by leaving cable. This is them trying to recoupe their losses by using streaming to get the cord cutters back and thinking no will notice what they're doing.
> 
> People who believe they should be in control of what they pay for are not fringe users, hobbyists or recording off the radio with cassettes.
> 
> ...


I would geneally agree with your post. However, services like sling and dtvnow are companies trying to claw back. YouTube TV, Vue, Philo, Hulu Live, Fubo, etc are disruptive companies entering the market place and part of the revolution.

The thing is, I don't feel lacking in control over what I pay for. I pay for content. And I get it. Keeping that content forever isn't necessarily part of the deal in my mind. That is more about bucking the system and not mainstream. That's fine. But for me, these are shows I have access to for at least 9 months. Which is plenty of time to watch them. I don't feel some sort of desire or entitlement to own these shows permanently. I don't want them, quite frankly.

Cable as we know it will die. It couldn't be more obvious. And that's not good for Tivo as that is the space they operate in. The mainstream users don't care about having shows on hard drives. They want to watch the content and don't care what happens to it after. Those days are over. It's just hoarding to feel the need to keep recordings forever, it's not healthy. It's fine if people want to, I don't care, but let's at least recognize that it's fringe and irrelevant. These people aren't paying for content to hoard. They are paying for live TV. And this topic is about relevance


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

mdavej said:


> I was comparing the AT&T box to a Roku/Fire/ATV. I don't really use Tivo anymore. Sounds like Guide is still several button presses on YTTV, Back then a couple of arrows then OK. On the AT&T remote, one button takes you straight to it. If I have 10 favorite channels, even at the top of the list, it's still several button presses. On the AT&T remote, it's 3 buttons max. The list goes on and on. Bottom line, dedicated buttons for functions is still quicker and simpler than using a streaming remote.


If you were on the guide, then pressing the back button would land you back on the guide. It's 1 button press. That's it. At worse it's 3 if you were in the library. It's hardly the inconvenience you are proposing.

And for what it's worth, I do wish the Roku remote had a dedicated guide button and what not. I'm not super in to the over simplified remote. But at this point I don't hardly pay attention anymore.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> I don't necessarily agree with the extent of many of your conclusions, but you_ do _keep on referring to me as fringe--and so you must know me.
> 
> Separately, on the digital music front, I participate in it but I also rip my purchased CDs or store locally my streamed digital music--with my music or my video content, why do I want to keep on paying Sony, et al. many times over for my same content, when I so easily simply can store my licensed copies here?


Not following you. Why would you pay over and over for the same content? If you are paying for a music service, it's because you appreciate the nearly unlimited new content that is given to you daily. You would not pay a monthly fee to listen to a single album.

If all you want is a few CDs worth of music, you could buy the digital copies all the same.

Explain what I'm missing here?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BNBTivo said:


> Not following you. Why would you pay over and over for the same content? If you are paying for a music service, it's because you appreciate the nearly unlimited new content that is given to you daily. You would not pay a monthly fee to listen to a single album.
> 
> If all you want is a few CDs worth of music, you could buy the digital copies all the same.
> 
> Explain what I'm missing here?


Sorry--my bad, I was thinking other scenarios (e.g. renting a movie multiple times, where there is a fee). (Of course, with a streaming service, you still are paying for it repeatedly, as a portion of the streaming subscription fee. But I understand your point.)


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

compnurd said:


> Post 11
> Physical boxes are going to be disappearing rapidly - which means, bye bye Tivo. There is no doubt that TV will disconnect from a hard wired, physical box experience to full streaming/app based.
> 
> So again a streamer box is guess what STILL A PHYSICAL BOX. And regardless if it is custom box built by ATT that runs android. Which could potentially be actually like the next version of TiVo's from Arris


You are misrepresenting my post. It's a given that hardware must exist to watch TV... I mean, you have to buy a TV right?

If you want play technicalities, most of my TVs have roku built in and I do NOT have extra hardware... And it's almost hard to buy a non smart TV nowadays. So it does actually seem extra hardware boxes are on the way out.

That said, in context, my point was clearly that cable boxes are on the way out on favor of streamers that give full control over the content to the user. As opposed to a professionally installed single ecosystem experience.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> Sorry--my bad, I was thinking other scenarios (e.g. renting a movie multiple times, where there is a fee). (Of course, with a streaming service, you still are paying for it repeatedly, as a portion of the streaming subscription fee. But I understand your point.)


That's fair. And I'd say I don't care about keeping recordings forever. It's fine for those who want that. But for me, I just want to watch the content and move on. Similar to a music service or sat radio. I'm not about owning the content forever. And it's really fine for those users who value keeping content on their own hard drive. My point is that this is a fringe desire. It's not mainstream. And again, this thread is about relevance.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BNBTivo said:


> That's fair. And I'd say I don't care about keeping recordings forever. It's fine for those who want that. But for me, I just want to watch the content and move on. Similar to a music service or sat radio. I'm not about owning the content forever. And it's really fine for those users who value keeping content on their own hard drive. My point is that this is a fringe desire. It's not mainstream. And again, this thread is about relevance.


I refuse to concede that I somehow am not relevant.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> I refuse to concede that I somehow am not relevant.


Being relevant is irrelevant. Someone else posted that tivo has never been relevant. I think I'd agree with that. I was a tivo user for 15 years or so. Even had Replay TV for a while. Replay was first to have the "minis" that talked to the main box if I recall. (and commercial skip). It's always been a bit of a hobbyist thing. I mean, who buys their own cable boxes for hundreds of dollars? It's always been fringe. But these topics are interesting because we are very much on the cusp of a massive change in the way we get TV. The discussions about it are fascinating to me!


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

BNBTivo said:


> Being relevant is irrelevant. Someone else posted that tivo has never been relevant. I think I'd agree with that. I was a tivo user for 15 years or so. Even had Replay TV for a while. Replay was first to have the "minis" that talked to the main box if I recall. (and commercial skip). It's always been a bit of a hobbyist thing. I mean, who buys their own cable boxes for hundreds of dollars? It's always been fringe. But these topics are interesting because we are very much on the cusp of a massive change in the way we get TV. The discussions about it are fascinating to me!


We aren't on the cusp of anything

Check back in 5-10 years. Then we can talk again


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

compnurd said:


> We aren't on the cusp of anything
> 
> Check back in 5-10 years. Then we can talk again


We probably agree on the time line. And disagree with just how fast 5 years goes by.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

Till my last dying breath.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

BNBTivo said:


> I'm not about owning the content forever. And it's really fine for those users who value keeping content on their own hard drive. My point is that this is a fringe desire. It's not mainstream. And again, this thread is about relevance.


Wow, wanting to own a movie is a fringe desire? Did the DVD/Blu-Ray industry evaporate while I was sleeping?


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

snerd said:


> Wow, wanting to own a movie is a fringe desire? Did the DVD/Blu-Ray industry evaporate while I was sleeping?


Talk about "out of context"... That is one fancy strawman you just built. Congrats.

And the best part about it? Yes, the DVD and Blu Ray industry are absolutely evaporating. So you didn't even make the point you tried to make. Owning physical media is fringe and disappearing practically overnight.


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## tommiet (Oct 28, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> No, it doesn't if you're a big sports fan that wants to avoid commercials.


The Weather channel and the paint drying channel are more fun to watch than any sports..... Not kidding about the paint drying channel.. Google it.

Not kidding.. I watch ZERO sports. ESPN channels are blocked on my tv. I'm going to hide now....


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

tommiet said:


> The Weather channel and the paint drying channel are more fun to watch than any sports..... Not kidding about the paint drying channel.. Google it.
> 
> Not kidding.. I watch ZERO sports. ESPN channels are blocked on my tv. I'm going to hide now....


Sports is almost the entire purpose of live TV nowadays! Could save a ton of money by just streaming only. Sports channels make up a sizable portion of your bill. You are certainly paying a lot for it. Maybe consider Philo for $20.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

tommiet said:


> The Weather channel and the paint drying channel are more fun to watch than any sports..... Not kidding about the paint drying channel.. Google it.
> Not kidding.. I watch ZERO sports. ESPN channels are blocked on my tv. I'm going to hide now....


While I can't live without The Weather Channel, I found out recently my cable company has a service plan that has no sports channels. I save over $30 a month. No sports, no sports fees.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> While I can't live without The Weather Channel, I found out recently my cable company has a service plan that has no sports channels. I save over $30 a month. No sports, no sports fees.


Oh yeah. Is it like Sling Blue? That's $25 and doesn't have the ESPNs. Doesn't have the Disney channels either though. I assume because Disney owns ESPN and you either take all or none.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

trip1eX said:


> Oh yeah. Is it like Sling Blue? That's $25 and doesn't have the ESPNs. Doesn't have the Disney channels either though. I assume because Disney owns ESPN and you either take all or none.


No, I have the complete basic cable package plus 100Mbs internet, just no sports. $135/mo. My MSO is ranked 18 (pretty small).


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> No, I have the complete basic cable package plus 100Mbs internet, just no sports. $135/mo. My MSO is ranked 18 (pretty small).


That's pricey, especially with no sports and slow internet. Have you tried to call and get it re rated with a newer deal?


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

Regional Sports Networks are the reason I subscribe to SlingTV (Blue). In my perfect universe, I could subscribe JUST to the RSN's (hopefully at a further reduced rated). I honestly watch very little content on Sling outside of the RSN games, as a Netflix and Prime subscription fill up the non-OTA time.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

I always check the dates on these threads to make sure they weren't started in 2004.

I do think that TiVo needs to partner with someone like Playstation Vue or Sling to offer a full streaming channel package. I suspect that wouldn't go over well with the cable partners. Maybe they could offer it only on OTA boxes.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

tenthplanet said:


> On the ATT remote you can do it with 2 buttons. One push the google assistant button and say "Tune CNN", CNN pops up, push Ok you're done. Voice is the future of control.


Yeah, I know all about the ATT remote. That's why I said "max". Was trying to leave voice out of the comparison.

In any case, I sure hope voice control is a fad. Unless you're searching for a super long string of text, buttons are always faster, quieter and far more reliable.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

BNBTivo said:


> If you were on the guide, then pressing the back button would land you back on the guide. It's 1 button press. That's it. At worse it's 3 if you were in the library. It's hardly the inconvenience you are proposing.
> 
> And for what it's worth, I do wish the Roku remote had a dedicated guide button and what not. I'm not super in to the over simplified remote. But at this point I don't hardly pay attention anymore.


In the middle of watching Netflix, tell me how many button presses to get to the DirecTV NOW guide. With the ATT remote, it's still just one button. There's no way you're going to convince me that dedicated buttons are not superior to menu surfing with arrows.

But, same as you, I use my Fire TV (or other streamer remote) 99.99% of the time. Nice as the ATT remote is, the app and Osprey box themselves are still pretty horrible and getting worse with every update. It used to have a live buffer - gone, reliable wifi connection - gone, fast loading UI - gone, fast loading channels - gone. Will be interesting to see how well diehard satellite subs accept this steaming pile of **** when ATT forces people to switch to streaming.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

mdavej said:


> In the middle of watching Netflix, tell me how many button presses to get to the DirecTV NOW guide. With the ATT remote, it's still just one button. There's no way you're going to convince me that dedicated buttons are not superior to menu surfing with arrows.
> 
> But, same as you, I use my Fire TV (or other streamer remote) 99.99% of the time. Nice as the ATT remote is, the app and Osprey box themselves are still pretty horrible and getting worse with every update. It used to have a live buffer - gone, reliable wifi connection - gone, fast loading UI - gone, fast loading channels - gone. Will be interesting to see how well diehard satellite subs accept this steaming pile of **** when ATT forces people to switch to streaming.


3 or 4 button presses to leave Netflix and get to the guide. It's pretty trivial. The more I use it, the less I care or even notice. It's a nothing burger. If you have one of the services that Roku puts on the remote, 1 button press... But even with those buttons I never actually use them. Pressing home and selecting a different app is all of nothing.

I don't know much about ATT. I do have it at my office (sat) and it's a turd and the giant remote blows, but I don't hardly use it. I have Roku at the office and prefer YTTV by far. I just keep the sat since it's on my dad's account and I have a second box in the breakroom for the staff.


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## mrick (Jan 6, 2008)

Boxes are relevant to me. My content comes from three places. 
1. Downloaded programs that I watch later. (Nvidia Shield) 
2. OTA programs that I record and watch later. (Tivo) 
3. Content that I stream. In terms of volume, streaming content like Netflicks is the smallest component. 

I have never had cable. I really like not having it.

For streaming Netflicks, I can use the Shield and usually that's what I do. Does that mean TIVO isn't relevant? I have to have something to record OTA programs with.

I just wish there was a robust box for all three. An amazon fire stick with kodi and amazon recast may be getting close.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

Wha


mrick said:


> Boxes are relevant to me. My content comes from three places.
> 1. Downloaded programs that I watch later. (Nvidia Shield)
> 2. OTA programs that I record and watch later. (Tivo)
> 3. Content that I stream. In terms of volume, streaming content like Netflicks is the smallest component.
> ...


Whats Netflicks?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

BNBTivo said:


> Wha
> 
> Whats Netflicks?


It's a service similar to what Netflix used to be. Only $10/mo. and didn't spend a lot of money creating its own content of questionable quality.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

dlfl said:


> It's a service similar to what Netflix used to be. Only $10/mo. and didn't spend a lot of money creating its own content of questionable quality.


No, that would be Qwikster.


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

BNBTivo said:


> Even had Replay TV for a while. Replay was first to have the "minis" that talked to the main box if I recall. (and commercial skip)


I had (still have them actually) Replay's & they never had any "mini's"..but you could network Replay's together in the same house. (I don't even think the concept of "mini's" had even started coming out before Replay went under...)
But they DID have the commercial skip, as well as being able to "send shows" to other Replay users, & to your PC...which due to lawsuits, is (mostly) what caused them to file for bankruptcy.
ReplayTV - Wikipedia
*Speaking of Replay & CS*...I REALLY liked their implementation of their skip-forward/backward buttons, where you could ALSO use them to instantly skip forward (AND backward) ANY # of minutes. (eg: to instantly skip ahead 10 minutes, you simply pressed "1,0,SKIP, 5 minutes "5,SKIP", etc; same thing for reverse skipping) It was so easy & I'm really surprised NO other DVR maker offered this feature. (at least that I know of) WAY easier than "tic marks"!


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tapokata said:


> Regional Sports Networks are the reason I subscribe to SlingTV (Blue). In my perfect universe, I could subscribe JUST to the RSN's (hopefully at a further reduced rated). I honestly watch very little content on Sling outside of the RSN games, as a Netflix and Prime subscription fill up the non-OTA time.


It'll be interesting to see what Sinclair does with the Fox Sports RSNs they just bought from Disney. I think maybe they're going to be renamed to Diamond Sports. Also looks like they might buy the 4 RSNs that AT&T owns too.

Will they begin selling them a la carte as OTT streaming services, perhaps accessed inside their existing STIRR app? Might they offer them as subscription OTA channels via ATSC 3.0, the new OTA TV system that Sinclair is championing more than anyone else? Or will they stick with the cable bundle and continue to only distribute the RSNs as part of cable and satellite packages? Aside from the RSNs, the only other channels that Sinclair has are The Tennis Channel and all those local stations across the country.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

dishrich said:


> I had (still have them actually) Replay's & they never had any "mini's"..but you could network Replay's together in the same house. (I don't even think the concept of "mini's" had even started coming out before Replay went under...)
> But they DID have the commercial skip, as well as being able to "send shows" to other Replay users, & to your PC...which due to lawsuits, is (mostly) what caused them to file for bankruptcy.
> ReplayTV - Wikipedia
> *Speaking of Replay & CS*...I REALLY liked their implementation of their skip-forward/backward buttons, where you could ALSO use them to instantly skip forward (AND backward) ANY # of minutes. (eg: to instantly skip ahead 10 minutes, you simply pressed "1,0,SKIP, 5 minutes "5,SKIP", etc; same thing for reverse skipping) It was so easy & I'm really surprised NO other DVR maker offered this feature. (at least that I know of) WAY easier than "tic marks"!


That's right! I had Replay long ago. After that I had Moxi boxes and Moxi had the Mates which were way before tivo did the Minis. It was a big deal because you didn't have to pay per outlet anymore, which was a new thing at the time, worked really well if I recall.


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## Sonyad (Sep 2, 2014)

I really miss the buffer on ReplayTV. Was is 12 hours or 24 hours? Can't remember. It was great for watching Adult Swim the next day.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Sonyad said:


> I really miss the buffer on ReplayTV. Was is 12 hours or 24 hours? Can't remember. It was great for watching Adult Swim the next day.


Some cable TV providers now have a "72-hour rewind" that applies to most (but not all) networks and shows. Scroll backward in the grid guide and find something you missed in the past 3 days and click to watch it on-demand. But can't skip the ads, of course.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

tapokata said:


> Regional Sports Networks are the reason I subscribe to SlingTV (Blue). In my perfect universe, I could subscribe JUST to the RSN's (hopefully at a further reduced rated). I honestly watch very little content on Sling outside of the RSN games, as a Netflix and Prime subscription fill up the non-OTA time.


Just curious what you are doing for RSNs with the Sling dispute going on right now.


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

ncted said:


> Just curious what you are doing for RSNs with the Sling dispute going on right now.


No problems here in Northern California. NBC SportsBayArea and NBC SportsNorthernCalifornia are still available via Sling Blue. If they weren't, I'd cancel and upgrade my Hulu sub to Hulu Live.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

tapokata said:


> No problems here in Northern California. NBC SportsBayArea and NBC SportsNorthernCalifornia are still available via Sling Blue. If they weren't, I'd cancel and upgrade my Hulu sub to Hulu Live.


Ah, your RSNs aren't Fox/Sinclair-owned then. Makes sense.


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## iReyes (Nov 28, 2015)

TiVO's Skip/AutoSkip + being able to download content off of the TiVO and encode it to MP4 via cTiVo are going to keep me using it until it is dead.


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## sd2528 (Nov 5, 2006)

Honestly, the user experience is what keeps me with TiVo and cable. The intuitive remote (8 second rewind is amazing) and the responsiveness of the experience moving through the content is something I haven come close to finding anywhere else. It allows me to watch baseball and football games in 45 minutes. 

Outside of the sports, is there any good device that let's you navigate streaming content close to as well?


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## sd2528 (Nov 5, 2006)

Also with all they dying going on, cable is still in what? 75% of the homes? Just because that market is down doesn't mean it is small. A lot of people have cable AND streaming subscriptions which makes TiVo the perfect solution to aggregate that together all in one place. They just have to get better versions of apps and market that solution better. They should license their software out to cable companies.

Also, with a local hard drive and bandwidth what it is TiVo could do a lot for the responsiveness of streaming controls... but they aren't good at innovating and doing things quickly.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

they've been losing money the past few years. That's never a good sign. and now they are splitting the company after combining it not too long ago. That's never a good sign either. 

I read the other day that they will saddle one of the companies with all the debt. Wonder if that will be the IP company or the product company. I would guess they saddle the product company with the debt because Rovi is in charge and IP was their business and Tivo as a product seems to have a slow death ahead of it.

But just a guess and I never quite understood where the IP business starts and the product business begins. I mean is the product company going to have to license the IP from the IP company?

I guess it all just points toward the merger being for the purpose of raiding Tivo for all IP and then splitting back up and sloughing Rovi's debt off onto Tivo and setting Tivo on fire and pushing it off down the river - pyre funeral style or whatever you call that.


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## ashipkowski (Oct 8, 2008)

trip1eX said:


> I read the other day that they will saddle one of the companies with all the debt. Wonder if that will be the IP company or the product company. I would guess they saddle the product company with the debt because Rovi is in charge and IP was their business and Tivo as a product seems to have a slow death ahead of it.


It looks like the IP company will keep the debt, to my surprise, from: Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Shull, who joined San Jose, California-based TiVo in May, said in an interview he wants to complete a spinoff of the company's patent portfolio by the first half of 2020. That business, which throws off much of the company's profit, would also assume the bulk of TiVo's debt and tax credits. A second business, which will likely retain the TiVo name, will focus on consumers looking to navigate the shifting TV landscape.​


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

ashipkowski said:


> It looks like the IP company will keep the debt, to my surprise, from: Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
> 
> Shull, who joined San Jose, California-based TiVo in May, said in an interview he wants to complete a spinoff of the company's patent portfolio by the first half of 2020. That business, which throws off much of the company's profit, would also assume the bulk of TiVo's debt and tax credits. A second business, which will likely retain the TiVo name, will focus on consumers looking to navigate the shifting TV landscape.​


Yeah I read up on the company again last night. The IP side makes a lot more money. Somewhere between 3-9x as much. The Product side barely makes and sometimes doesn't make enough money to cover the interest payments on the debt. And so they couldn't take on a lot of the debt. The IP would have to take it on.

Also here's how they split up again:

The *Product segment* consists primarily of licensing Company-developed UX products and services to multi-channel video service providers and CE manufacturers, licensing the TiVo service and selling TiVo-enabled devices, licensing metadata and advanced media and advertising solutions, including viewership data, sponsored discovery and in-guide advertising. The Product segment also includes legacy Analog Content Protection, VCR Plus+ and media recognition products.

The *Intellectual Property Licensing* segment consists primarily of licensing the Company's patent portfolio to U.S. and international pay TV providers (directly and through their suppliers), mobile device manufacturers, CE manufacturers and OTT video providers. Our broad portfolio of licensable technology patents covers many aspects of content discovery, DVR, video-on-demand ("VOD"), OTT experiences, multi-screen functionality and personalization, as well as interactive applications and advertising.

Also this: The Separation is expected to be completed through a dividend of newly issued shares of the common stock of a Company subsidiary that will hold the Product business ("ProductCo"). ...the way they worded this makes it sound like Tivo/Rovi will own majority shares in the new ProductCo.

Last they aren't exactly losing money. They have been writing off intangible assets the past few years. In the first 6 months of 2018 they wrote off ~$82 million. IN the first 6 months of 2019 they wrote off $56 million. These result in paper losses, but not cash losses. Basically they are expensing (on paper) the loss in value of the patents they hold.

They also have ~$300 million in cash to partially offset their ~$600 billion in debt.

I Feel like i did this 3-6 months ago. Getting old. lol.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

I will add my outlook.... It is Saturday afternoon and there is a lot of college football on tv. To be able to watch six games simultaneously..all with 30 minute buffers as well as slo mo , frame by frame, and frame by frame backwards as well as a great operating system. I will use Tivo until there is no Tivo to use.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

mattyro7878 said:


> I will add my outlook.... It is Saturday afternoon and there is a lot of college football on tv. To be able to watch six games simultaneously..all with 30 minute buffers as well as slo mo , frame by frame, and frame by frame backwards as well as a great operating system. I will use Tivo until there is no Tivo to use.


There's really no better way to watch college football Saturday on a single tv setup than with a six tune TiVo. Would be even better if they had gotten their sports bar mode working, it looked promising...


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> There's really no better way to watch college football Saturday on a single tv setup than with a six tune TiVo. Would be even better if they had gotten their sports bar mode working, it looked promising...


Only 6? There is already better ways to watch college football. I'd say YTTV is better, minus the lack of slow mo. I record 30+ games on a Saturday, no need for 30 min buffers. Just have them fully recorded and watch as I wish. Never run out of space, don't have to worry about maxing out tuners, and have every game recorded that is broadcast for the entire season. Plus YTTV has big 10, Acc, sec network, etc. It's simply better than TiVo for this. I just pop in to my library, click college football and have thousands of hours of games. Tivo can't do that. For perspective, I am "recording" an entire 1tb Bolt tivo worth of college football in a single day... Not counting all my other shows.

No need to worry about a single tv setup, either. I can watch anywhere, including on my phone while traveling, kids can use a "tuner" etc.

So yeah, even something seemingly super relevant for Tivo, it's already way behind other services.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

whenver my Roamio breaks down that's the last day of T


BNBTivo said:


> Only 6? There is already better ways to watch college football. I'd say YTTV is better, minus the lack of slow mo. I record 30+ games on a Saturday, no need for 30 min buffers. Just have them fully recorded and watch as I wish. Never run out of space, don't have to worry about maxing out tuners, and have every game recorded that is broadcast for the entire season. Plus YTTV has big 10, Acc, sec network, etc. It's simply better than TiVo for this. I just pop in to my library, click college football and have thousands of hours of games. Tivo can't do that. For perspective, I am "recording" an entire 1tb Bolt tivo worth of college football in a single day... Not counting all my other shows.
> 
> No need to worry about a single tv setup, either. I can watch anywhere, including on my phone while traveling, kids can use a "tuner" etc.
> 
> So yeah, even something seemingly super relevant for Tivo, it's already way behind other services.


Yeah the vMVPDs aren't limited by tuners nor recording space at least some of them.

And ultimately streaming won't be limited by channels either. I mean you can get NFL Game Pass and watch whatever NFL game you want to watch and not be limited by what game each channel decides to air.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

BNBTivo said:


> Only 6? There is already better ways to watch college football. I'd say YTTV is better, minus the lack of slow mo. I record 30+ games on a Saturday, no need for 30 min buffers. Just have them fully recorded and watch as I wish. Never run out of space, don't have to worry about maxing out tuners, and have every game recorded that is broadcast for the entire season. Plus YTTV has big 10, Acc, sec network, etc. It's simply better than TiVo for this. I just pop in to my library, click college football and have thousands of hours of games. Tivo can't do that. For perspective, I am "recording" an entire 1tb Bolt tivo worth of college football in a single day... Not counting all my other shows.
> 
> No need to worry about a single tv setup, either. I can watch anywhere, including on my phone while traveling, kids can use a "tuner" etc.
> 
> So yeah, even something seemingly super relevant for Tivo, it's already way behind other services.


I don't watch sports when it's not live, the thought of that is crazy to me. Just want to be able to flip around games and watch them live.


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## sd2528 (Nov 5, 2006)

BNBTivo said:


> Only 6? There is already better ways to watch college football. I'd say YTTV is better, minus the lack of slow mo. I record 30+ games on a Saturday, no need for 30 min buffers. Just have them fully recorded and watch as I wish. Never run out of space, don't have to worry about maxing out tuners, and have every game recorded that is broadcast for the entire season. Plus YTTV has big 10, Acc, sec network, etc. It's simply better than TiVo for this. I just pop in to my library, click college football and have thousands of hours of games. Tivo can't do that. For perspective, I am "recording" an entire 1tb Bolt tivo worth of college football in a single day... Not counting all my other shows.
> 
> No need to worry about a single tv setup, either. I can watch anywhere, including on my phone while traveling, kids can use a "tuner" etc.
> 
> So yeah, even something seemingly super relevant for Tivo, it's already way behind other services.


Can you navigate the content easily with a remote? Rewind and fast forward easily while seeing the image? Skip ahead 30 seconds and jump back 8 with one button (something key for football)? Tuners... I'm not sure I need unlimited. Same with storage space but having the local storage space allows for a much more responsive viewing experience.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

sd2528 said:


> Can you navigate the content easily with a remote? Rewind and fast forward easily while seeing the image? Skip ahead 30 seconds and jump back 8 with one button (something key for football)? Tuners... I'm not sure I need unlimited. Same with storage space but having the local storage space allows for a much more responsive viewing experience.


This! It's so fast to go back and forth between channels and rewind, etc. as you mention that nothing else comes close. That's what matters to me the reason I haven't cut cable for streaming services.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I don't watch sports when it's not live, the thought of that is crazy to me. Just want to be able to flip around games and watch them live.


ON a whim, i timed channel switching on Vue vs Tivo Mini (via Roamio Plus) and surprisingly Vue won that battle overall.

Channel switching on Tivo was consistently 4-5 seconds. Vue was often in the 2-3 second range and one case less than 2 seconds when switching to FSN which was airing a rerun of last night's local MLB game. But then sometimes Vue would be in the 5 second range.

Not exactly sure why it would load some channels super quick and others a bit slower than Tivo. Perhaps the popularity of the channel in my area might have something to do with it.

But I was surprised Vue not only held its own but was often faster than the Tivo setup above at switching channels.


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

trip1eX said:


> ON a whim, i timed channel switching on Vue vs Tivo Mini (via Roamio Plus) and surprisingly Vue won that battle overall.
> 
> Channel switching on Tivo was consistently 4-5 seconds. Vue was often in the 2-3 second range ...


I think the "flip around games" scenario here is flipping between tuners recording the games. At least that's what I do. It's quick, I don't lose my place in games, and it's easy to stay caught up by quickly skipping through commercials and dead game time.

Changing channels on a Mini is probably the slowest way to use a TiVo, besides streaming.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

powrcow said:


> I think the "flip around games" scenario here is flipping between tuners recording the games. At least that's what I do. It's quick, I don't lose my place in games, and it's easy to stay caught up by quickly skipping through commercials and dead game time.
> 
> Changing channels on a Mini is probably the slowest way to use a TiVo, besides streaming.


With something like Vue you would switch between recordings in progress if you wanted to switch in and out of live games that you are recording. It saves your place when you leave a recording.

Commercial skipping was pretty easy on an Apple TV. Pause, scroll ahead with touchpad, Play. Skipping dead game time not so much. There's only a 10 skip forward/backward on Vue on ATV afaik. No 30 second skip to skip (dead time) in between plays in an NFL game for example.

Yeah Mini is slower than using Tivo directly but it was surprising to me that changing channels on Vue was often a lot faster than on Mini and then, the other half of the time, worst case, it was barely slower.

The above experience isn't as good as Tivo overall but Vue brings a lot of other positives to the table like not worrying about storage nor tuners along with other convenience features like one touch recording and sometimes being able to watch a show even if it started recording it late. Also I'd say Vue has better video quality overall.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I don't watch sports when it's not live, the thought of that is crazy to me. Just want to be able to flip around games and watch them live.


Can still do that all the same. Just without the need for a 30 minute limited buffer. You have as much buffer as you want.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

sd2528 said:


> Can you navigate the content easily with a remote? Rewind and fast forward easily while seeing the image? Skip ahead 30 seconds and jump back 8 with one button (something key for football)? Tuners... I'm not sure I need unlimited. Same with storage space but having the local storage space allows for a much more responsive viewing experience.


Navigate easily? Yes. Rewind and fast forward while seeing the image? Yes. It skips ahead or back 15 seconds. So that's different. It's not quite as quick as the Tivo for jumping through plays, but I also found the 30 second tivo skip too much for college football when they are running a fast offense. 15 seconds is better for college. NFL the 30 seconds is perfect.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

trip1eX said:


> With something like Vue you would switch between recordings in progress if you wanted to switch in and out of live games that you are recording. It saves your place when you leave a recording.
> 
> Commercial skipping was pretty easy on an Apple TV. Pause, scroll ahead with touchpad, Play. Skipping dead game time not so much. There's only a 10 skip forward/backward on Vue on ATV afaik. No 30 second skip to skip (dead time) in between plays in an NFL game for example.
> 
> ...


Yup. Streaming is faster than the minis. Not the main unit though. As for the comment the other poster made about switching between tuners... You better hope you didn't have any recordings that would take the tuner and kill your place in the game. It's far, far superior, as you know, just having all of the games actively recording with no limits. And yes, it saves your place as you switch between the games. Then you can ff if you want. Tivo ff and rw is a tad snappier but that isn't enough to offset the far superior recording on Vue and YTTV


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## sd2528 (Nov 5, 2006)

BNBTivo said:


> Navigate easily? Yes. Rewind and fast forward while seeing the image? Yes. It skips ahead or back 15 seconds. So that's different. It's not quite as quick as the Tivo for jumping through plays, but I also found the 30 second tivo skip too much for college football when they are running a fast offense. 15 seconds is better for college. NFL the 30 seconds is perfect.


If you don't mind me asking, what device are you using to stream YTTV and what remote?


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

sd2528 said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what device are you using to stream YTTV and what remote?


Nothing special. Just a variety of rokus and their corresponding remotes


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

You're telling me you can watch a recorded game on yttv , stop, go to home , choose a recording, then hit play faster than I can switch one of my 6 tuners?? I ain't buyin it.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

mattyro7878 said:


> You're telling me you can watch a recorded game on yttv , stop, go to home , choose a recording, then hit play faster than I can switch one of my 6 tuners?? I ain't buyin it.


I don't think I said that. What I've said is that there is positives and negatives to each, but I feel the positives of unlimited tuners/recording outweigh switching between tuners. Especially if you do a lot of other recording or have others in your household, which eats up tuners. It's not like it's some big drawn out process to get to another game on YTTV. You press the back button which brings up "Home" and the games are generally right there. Just select another game. One button press and then you select the other game. Or, if you launch a game from the Library (even live recordings), when you press back, you are still in the NCAA folder in your library, literally just select another game. It doesn't get easier. Switching between tuners is actually more convoluted than that. How do you switch from Tuner 6 to Tuner 3? That's not a single button press if I recall. And YTTV keeps your place from "last watched" instead of trying to bounce around live games. So I jump back to where I was and don't miss anything.

I couldn't imagine anyone trying to jump between 6 live games at the same time, holy hell. You couldn't possibly time big plays and important drives doing that. But if that's what you like, go for it. I prefer having full recordings of every single game that is broadcast on my plan. I then have total control over watching them, when, etc. Every single game, every sport, for the entire season. You don't have the DVR space to do that for a week, let alone a season.

By the way, right now, I have 12 games recording Live that I can bounce between with the press of a button. How many tuners on the Tivo again?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

BNBTivo said:


> I don't think I said that. What I've said is that there is positives and negatives to each, but I feel the positives of unlimited tuners/recording outweigh switching between tuners. Especially if you do a lot of other recording or have others in your household, which eats up tuners. It's not like it's some big drawn out process to get to another game on YTTV. You press the back button which brings up "Home" and the games are generally right there. Just select another game. One button press and then you select the other game. Or, if you launch a game from the Library (even live recordings), when you press back, you are still in the NCAA folder in your library, literally just select another game. It doesn't get easier. Switching between tuners is actually more convoluted than that. How do you switch from Tuner 6 to Tuner 3? That's not a single button press if I recall. And YTTV keeps your place from "last watched" instead of trying to bounce around live games. So I jump back to where I was and don't miss anything.
> 
> I couldn't imagine anyone trying to jump between 6 live games at the same time, holy hell. You couldn't possibly time big plays and important drives doing that. But if that's what you like, go for it. I prefer having full recordings of every single game that is broadcast on my plan. I then have total control over watching them, when, etc. Every single game, every sport, for the entire season. You don't have the DVR space to do that for a week, let alone a season.


I feel like the services YTTV and Vue are going to evolve quicker too than Tivo.

OH and i am doing a free trial again with YTTV and not as good as I remember. I don't know what changed but doesn't seem quite as slick. I might even like Vue better. It's hard to judge when you can't switch in and out of them. But Vue had a very convenient shortcut menu on AppleTV with last watched, guide and dvr. YTTV doesn't have it and I Miss it. Also YTTV guide was more annoying than the whacked guide on Vue. YTTV's guide basically only shows the 1 show that is currently playing for each channel. And ATV for whatever reason the scrolling was crap. It was only letting scroll down one channel at a time unless I really flicked my thumb on the trackpad.

And I ran into 15-30 second pre-roll ads on YTTV when watching some content.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

trip1eX said:


> I feel like the services YTTV and Vue are going to evolve quicker too than Tivo.
> 
> OH and i am doing a free trial again with YTTV and not as good as I remember. I don't know what changed but doesn't seem quite as slick. I might even like Vue better. It's hard to judge when you can't switch in and out of them. But Vue had a very convenient shortcut menu on AppleTV with last watched, guide and dvr. YTTV doesn't have it and I Miss it. Also YTTV guide was more annoying than the whacked guide on Vue. YTTV's guide basically only shows the 1 show that is currently playing for each channel. And ATV for whatever reason the scrolling was crap. It was only letting scroll down one channel at a time unless I really flicked my thumb on the trackpad.
> 
> And I ran into 15-30 second pre-roll ads on YTTV when watching some content.


YTTV updated their guide very recently and it shows what's coming up next now. May not have rolled out to all devices? Not sure. But it's there on my rokus.
The only preroll ads I've seen are with on demand content, not recorded. Every service has ads with on demand, even traditional cable companies.

I've considered Vue, but haven't felt the desire to try something new at the moment.

And you are right, the streaming services are evolving and improving way faster than traditional boxes.


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