# Total newbie seeks advice: cutting the cord



## Pete K (Oct 18, 2018)

Greetings:

The only Tivo device I have ever owned was a DirecTV branded device many years ago but my wife and I liked using it. Flash forward to a couple of years ago and we were looking to ditch the high cost of satellite service and cut the cord. I spent weeks researching the options and just came away scratching my head. It all seemed too complicated -- a jumble of services and devices and computers to keep up and everyone seemed to be spending way too much time just keeping things going. I want something that "just works" -- I am not a video hobbyist, just someone who wants to turn on the TV and have it work. So I reluctantly came to the conclusion that cutting the cord was not for me. I switched to another satellite provider (Dish) which offered a better deal for 2 years. 

Now I'm nearing the end of that agreement with Dish and again dipping my toes into the world of cutting the cord. I think Tivo Bolt might be what I need. I would like to describe my needs and ask the community whether this device and service will meet my needs. 

All we really want are: local OTA channels with the ability to record as we hardly ever watch live TV, Netflix, Amazon Prime (we already subscribe to those), and -- this was the big issue last time -- ESPN. Is there a way to subscribe to ESPN, either directly or through another streaming service, and watch it on the Bolt? Finally, we want to be able to watch recorded or streaming programs from a second TV, which we can currently do with Hopper/Joey. I understand the Bolt has a mini device -- is that how it works? You can record to the main device and watch it on the Mini as well? 

It seems I will be saving quite a bit on monthly programming unless whatever I wind up paying for ESPN is a lot more than 20-30 bucks a month. I'm currently paying nearly 80 for Dish, plus Netflix. Of course, the big downside is the large up-front cost, but if the devices last at least 3-4 years I'm still coming out way ahead. 

Basically what I want to know is will this work as I hope? Can I get ESPN? And is it really as easy to use as cable/satellite, or will I need to spend significant time learning the intricacies of this technology and babysit it all the time? 

I appreciate any feedback.


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## Intheswamp (Nov 15, 2017)

We dumped dish in January of 2018 and haven't regretted it a bit. 

Have you ran a TVFool or Rabbitears report to see the lay-of-the-land in regards to your local transmitters? That can make a difference. If you're within ten to twenty miles of all the transmitters and no big obstructions between yourself and them then you should be sitting pretty. OTA isn't a cake walk and you do need to have a mindset that you will need to put a bit of effort into getting things set up. But, once set up there's only the occasional tweak or whatever. And, getting things set up isn't rocket science...even a cave man (like me) can do it! 

The Bolt OTA currently will cost you $500 for the "all in" package which means you pay for the equipment and a one-time charge for guide data. To add another TV to the Bolt you would go with a "Mini" which is another ~$180(?) along with either a MOCA or Ethernet network. I opted for Ethernet, but using MOCA you are supposed to be able to use the existing coax cable. I started out going to set up a MOCA network but ended up going with Ethernet being as Ethernet was easier for me to "understand"....and I'm slow-witted. So, you could have another $100-$200 in HDMI switches, Ethernet switches, MOCA switches, etc.,. Even with the "extra" costs of getting things set up you probably will have paid for the system within a year's time by the savings from killing the satellite subscription.

Amazon Prime and Netflix should not be a problem. A Roku might stream better, but our Roamio does a good job of it and it integrates the search feature so that you can hunt a program in recorded OTA programs and through other selected streaming apps. It's really handy when we're looking for a certain kids' show for the granddaughters.  

ESPN...the 800-pound gorilla in the room. The only sports that I care about is college football...the rest of them I can pretty well do without. My intention was to try one of the "live" streaming apps. There are several to choose from. PS/Vue is probably the better live streaming app but also (I think) the most expensive and it needs a fast internet connection to work well. We are at the monopolistic mercy of Centurystink and have a humble 3Mbps connection (though we're paying for the "3Mbps to 25Mbps" package. I ended up doing a trial of "HULU Live"....and, it worked so I subscribed. The screen image naturally and definitely isn't as good as OTA but I'm finding I have no problem watching it and it has been running good on our slow speed connection. At the end of the college football season I will kill the $40 a month "Live" package of HULU. I am thinking of keeping the regular, non-live package as the streaming app has a lot of programs and movies....lots of past seasons of TV series, etc.,...it's like $8 a month for the basic package, I like their program line-up a bit better than I do Netflix but I won't/don't watch either very intensively being as we have so much recorded stuff on the Roamio OTA that we have trouble keeping up with it.  

The first thing I would do, if I was you, would be get an antenna and see how good your reception is. I like bay-type antennas, but that is me. They work pretty well with multipath interference and have decent gain. But, there are several good antennas out there. The big thing is your location in regard to the transmitters. To record OTA programs you may need to be able to receive signals from opposite directions which can create a little complexity but is definitely doable. Proximity to towers and obstructions between you and the towers have to be considered. Also, length of coax cable runs and number of splitters...you may need a pre-amp at the antenna feedpoint to overcome the losses incurred from excessive runs and the required splitters. 

It's not a "turnkey" endeavor but definitely doable and definitely rewarding in satisfaction and finance! You can do it. Do it! 

Best wishes!
Ed


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

First, I cannot help with info on ESPN at all - I have zero interest in that and know nothing about it. I am sure others will fill in that gap.

Now for the rest of what you want to do - the Bolt with a Mini should be just perfect. Another somewhat cheaper option would be a Roamio OTA box with a Mini, especially if you do not need to use MoCA to connect the Mini to your network (if you have a wired Ethernet connection available at the Mini). The Roamio OTA comes with a lifetime subscription, so there would be no monthly fees to TiVo at all. You can buy a lifetime sub (now called "All In") for any TiVo, but that cost is often exorbitantly high these days, so that is what makes the Roamio OTA such a good deal up front.

Personally, all of my TiVo boxes have Lifetime subs, and I think they absolutely do pay for themselves, but not everyone is willing to spend the high up-front cost.

The Mini is basically exactly what you currently have with the Joey - really nothing more that you need to know about that. You do need to make sure you buy a TiVo box that is capable of receiving OTA - not all of them are. In general, if it has 6 tuners, it cannot receive OTA at all.

Of course the first thing you need to do is connect an antenna to your TV to make sure you get the OTA channels you want. While there can be differences in tuner capabilities between a TV and a TiVo box (and you will find many threads about that on these forums), in general, either the Bolt or the Roamio should receive anything that you can see on your TV.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Forget about cutting the cord and getting ESPN on Bolt/Mini. You can, however, get it on just about any other streaming device (Roku, Fire TV, Apple TV, etc.) either signing up with some OTT service that includes it (DirecTV NOW, Sling TV, etc.) or just the ESPN app. I don't know anything about the app, but the other services listed allow at least 2 simultaneous streams. 

No, it won't be quite as easy to use as cable/sat as there are a few extra steps and possibly occasional logins to deal with. Works pretty much like Netflix, so if you can manage that, adapting shouldn't be a problem or take a significant amount of time to learn.

As far as OTA goes, honestly, I'd just get a couple of $20 Fire TV sticks and the soon-to-be-released Recast DVR from Amazon. It will be significantly cheaper than a Tivo system AND run all your streaming apps, OTT apps and/or ESPN app on the same box (Fire TV). But since this is a new device, the reviews aren't in yet, so performance is still unknown.

If you want to go the Tivo route, a Bolt OTA or Roamio OTA (much cheaper) plus a Mini plus an additional streaming device at each TV will be required. I also recommend a universal remote at each TV to keep control and source switching simple.


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## Pete K (Oct 18, 2018)

Thanks for that detailed response, Ed. Very helpful. I'm not at all worried about OTA -- we're in the suburbs of Lexington KY and get a great signal with just a small indoor wall mount antenna. But I was thinking of maybe installing a larger one in the attic and utilizing the existing coax for distribution of the OTA signal. Should be doable with an amp, right? You mention going with Ethernet for connecting the Mini -- would WiFi be an option? As for ESPN, looks like Hulu Live would work for me as well. I'm also mainly into college football, and aslo basketball. I could see paying for Hulu Live from September through March and then ditching it. Sounds like a plan.


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## Pete K (Oct 18, 2018)

Thanks for all the helpful responses!


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

Wireless is not an option for TiVo Mini - only MoCA over coax or wired Ethernet. MoCA is built into the Mini and a Bolt, but not a Romeo OTA capable box.

There are special work-arounds that some people have successfully done to use wireless with a Mini, but that is not supported, and I do not recommend you even think about it with what you have already told us. 

If you buy a Bolt, MoCA will generally work perfectly at no additional cost. When I dropped Dish, I was able to use the same coax plant that the Hopper/joey units had been using, with my external antenna using the same input connection to the house. There was one 'splitter-like' device in the coax that I had to remove (sorry, I do not remember exactly what that was, but I could go find if if you really need the info), but the other three Dish-installed splitters worked perfectly with MoCA. With a Bolt, the only other thing you should need to buy for MoCA is a $10 POE filter on the antenna input (that assumes your internet is not connected to the same coax). 

The Bolt will still need both a coax and a wired Ethernet connection to create the MoCA network.


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## aspexil (Oct 16, 2015)

SlingTV Orange + Blue and we get ESPN and a ton of sports channels. Worth looking into.


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## Intheswamp (Nov 15, 2017)

Pete K said:


> Thanks for that detailed response, Ed. Very helpful. I'm not at all worried about OTA -- we're in the suburbs of Lexington KY and get a great signal with just a small indoor wall mount antenna. But I was thinking of maybe installing a larger one in the attic and utilizing the existing coax for distribution of the OTA signal. Should be doable with an amp, right? You mention going with Ethernet for connecting the Mini -- would WiFi be an option? As for ESPN, looks like Hulu Live would work for me as well. I'm also mainly into college football, and aslo basketball. I could see paying for Hulu Live from September through March and then ditching it. Sounds like a plan.


I'm no expert, so take it all with a bit of salt. 

If you are receiving all the OTA channels that you wish to receive and the signal quality is good, then it seems that you have a good location and your system antenna will not have to be very large. Something like the Antennas Direct CS-2Max would probably be a good choice...not too big, fairly wide beam, includes a VHF dipole. There are a couple of versions, I can't remember which is the old and which is the new...one has a reflector and one doesn't. If you have towers in different directions I'd leave the screen off of it. But, something of that size should work...maybe a regular 2-bay bowtie antenna. Be sure there is no foil-lined thermal barrier attached to the roof rafters or insulation with foil backing. Also, and you'd be surprised how people actually miss this...if you have a metal roof an attic mounted antenna just isn't the best idea.  As long as you have a power receptacle in the attic you could use a distribution amplifier since it will be protected from the weather. Otherwise, possibly a pre-amp with a power-inserter down close to one of the televisions. Beware that you can supply too much power and basically end up with the same symptoms as you would with a weak/bad signal...too strong of a signal will overload your tuners.

All of my network is hardwired so I can't help with the WiFi aspect of the Mini. I do know that my Roamio OTA had pitiful WiFi...very weak. It seems the WiFi on the Roamio OTAs was kind of a crapshoot as to whether you got a good, strong one. You could setup up a wireless bridge (router in bridge mode) at the Mini and see how it worked. At one time I was doing that with our Sony Bluray player and it worked pretty good. Hardwired is always better (in my view), but sometimes it's impossible to pull a wire where you need it so we have to improvise. 

Your idea of using HULU is much similar to mine..."Live" will be gone after the college championship game. 

There may be some mistakes, problems, hiccups along the way but you'll be happy once you get things sorted out and up and running. You'll also notice that your viewing habits change. We found that we didn't waste time anymore mindlessly surfing the satellite channels trying to find something. We either go to a current program or ball game, we watch a recorded show, or on rare occasions we'll stream a movie. For the granddaughters we'll watch recorded, PBS, or stream kid shows. It's working great for us!!

Do you have good internet speed?


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## Pete K (Oct 18, 2018)

aspexil said:


> SlingTV Orange + Blue and we get ESPN and a ton of sports channels. Worth looking into.


Is Sling and/or Hulu integrated into the Bolt? I want to be able to record as well.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Pete K said:


> Is Sling and/or Hulu integrated into the Bolt? I want to be able to record as well.


1) No app exists for the TiVo platform for any of the OTT cable TV replacement services ... not SlingTV, PS Vue, DirecTV Now, Hulu with Live TV, YouTube TV or Philo;

2) Even where an app for TiVo exists for the core service ... Hulu* and YouTube ... the app does not include the associated OTT Live TV component;

3) TiVos, nor any other streaming box, are currently capable of separate recording of any streaming service content; any "recording" would need to occur within the OTT services app and cloud infrastructure;

* edit: p.s. The earlier comment Re: accessing ESPN through Hulu with Live TV ...


Intheswamp said:


> I ended up doing a trial of "HULU Live"....and, it worked so I subscribed. The screen image naturally and definitely isn't as good as OTA but I'm finding I have no problem watching it and it has been running good on our slow speed connection. At the end of the college football season I will kill the $40 a month "Live" package of HULU.


... would require some other streaming box as the version of the Hulu app available for TiVos lacks the "with Live TV" feature.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

krkaufman said:


> 3) TiVos, nor any other streaming box, are currently capable of separate recording of any streaming service content; any "recording" would need to occur within the OTT services app and cloud infrastructure;


There is actually a new service that can do this, but it comes at the cost of losing on demand access and a pretty terrible lineup. See the HD bullet point near the bottom of this page:
Premium TV - Silicon Dust

And technically PlayOn can partially do it, but very badly and probably not legally.

@Pete K , The bottom line for you is to understand that if a cord cutter wants any cable tv channels at all, it's going to require a streaming device other than Tivo. Hence, my recommendations for exploring solutions that don't involve Tivo.


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## aspexil (Oct 16, 2015)

SlingTV has its own cloud DVR which I think runs about $5/month. Can be viewed from Android, iOS and Roku apps. Or a Web browser on a PC or Mac. No Tivo integration (doesn't matter which product) that I'm aware of.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

mdavej said:


> There is actually a new service that can do this, but it comes at the cost of losing on demand access and a pretty terrible lineup. See the HD bullet point near the bottom of this page:
> Premium TV - Silicon Dust
> 
> And technically PlayOn can partially do it, but very badly and probably not legally.


PlayOn I excluded via the "streaming box" qualifier, and I thought I was excluding SD's offering via the "currently" modifier ... not realizing it was already available. Thanks.


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## Intheswamp (Nov 15, 2017)

krkaufman said:


> * edit: p.s. The earlier comment Re: accessing ESPN through Hulu with Live TV ...
> ​... would require some other streaming box as the version of the Hulu app available for TiVos lacks the "with Live TV" feature.


I can't argue with this. Right now my 3-year-old granddaughter has control of the Roamio <grin> so I can't check, but I'm pretty sure that I've been watching college football via our Roku and HULU Live, rather than through the Roamio OTA. I sometimes let the stuff merge together in my weary mind.  I do recall that the Roku streamed HULU better than the Roamio did when I first checked. But, now the Roamio seems to do a good job as we watch Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Hulu all equally well.

So Pete, add some more $$$ in for a Roku...personally I'd go with an Ultra or Premiere+ rather than a stick, being as I think I read that they have more computing power...now whether that matters, I'm not sure. Our main television is a 50" 720p Panny Plasma so we don't need extreme HD. I guess that may be how we get away with streaming at 3Mbps.


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## aspexil (Oct 16, 2015)

Intheswamp said:


> So Pete, add some more $$$ in for a Roku...personally I'd go with an Ultra or Premiere+ rather than a stick, being as I think I read that they have more computing power...now whether that matters, I'm not sure.


Oh, yes it does! Especially when it comes to the UI performance (scrolling through the guide). We had an older Roku 2 when we first got SlingTV. Boy was UI lacking in responsiveness. That year I upgraded to the top of the line Roku had and the UI difference was night and day. What took forever on the Roku 2 is now instant on the newer version of Roku. So getting the best Roku possible is the way to go.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

mdavej said:


> As far as OTA goes, honestly, I'd just get a couple of $20 Fire TV sticks and the soon-to-be-released Recast DVR from Amazon. It will be significantly cheaper than a Tivo system AND run all your streaming apps, OTT apps and/or ESPN app on the same box (Fire TV). But since this is a new device, the reviews aren't in yet, so performance is still unknown.


This. I love our Tivos for cable. But if we didn't already own Tivos and were cutting the cord, I'd look at the non-Tivo solutions. 1) The cost. 2) The lack of breadth in the apps. 3) The tendency for the apps to never get updated or not be as good as on the other platforms to begin with.

This wiki might be useful. index - cordcutters


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

You'd want a TiVo Bolt OTA plus a streaming device for your streaming needs. TiVo does a mediocre job of Netflix, Amazon, and Hulu (non live), so I'd recommend keeping the two worlds separate, and using Roku for streaming apps. This is pretty much what everyone else is doing anyway, just with a streaming device and a cable or satellite box, so it's nothing new or revolutionary, just substitute your DISH/DirecTV/cable box for a Bolt OTA and you're in business. When you are streaming live TV, it's streaming, so you can't record it on a local DVR. Many of the live streaming services offer cloud-based DVR solutions, so look for one that fits your needs. YouTube TV is very promising, there's also DirecTV Now, Sling TV, Hulu Live, etc.

I would re-frame cord cutting as a simpler way to get TV. Instead of having boxes controlled by a cable or satellite provider plus streaming boxes, you will have a Bolt OTA that is your box with OTA coming in for free and with no monthly charges (assuming you get Lifetime subscription for the TiVo, which is a no-brainer), no bills to worry about, no recurring costs to guilt you into wanting to watch it to "get your moneys worth", and the same streaming boxes you'd have otherwise. Yes, some pay TV providers like DISH and Comcast have a few streaming apps built in, but they are inferior to Roku/Apple TV/Fire TV, and there are very limited options in terms of adding various channels and services.

Then, you have the freedom to subscribe to a live streaming service, and drop it whenever you want. There's no "broadcast fee" or "RSN fee", it's just whatever price it is, and you can subscribe, drop, and switch whenever you want. And instead of having to switch from the DISH box to the DirecTV box or the cable box and re-wire stuff and get and return equipment, you're simply uninstalling one app and installing another. It literally takes less than 30 seconds, and you don't have to leave your favorite recliner chair to do it. If you decide you're busy and won't get to sports until next month, don't subscribe until next month.


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## Jayhawker88 (Nov 10, 2009)

First, for sports, my research led me to focus on YouTube TV as a streaming cable service. It seems to be their focus, and probably smart.

That said, when I was about to cut the cord, Spectrum offered me a great deal to stay. I get all my locals plus my choice of any 10 national cable channels. That unfortunately left my local Fox Sports channel out. After doing all the math, including that my internet would go up if I dropped cable, it basically came out to about $25 a month. And seriously, after testing out the streaming cable packages, if you like TiVo, you will HATE what they consider DVR service. It's a million time less convenient.

Been really happy with this set-up, and found some work-arounds for Fox Sports. But one of the channels we chose was Lifetime, 100% for Project Runway, which has now moved to Bravo (plus they lost Tim Gunn and Heidi Klum). The catch with the 10 channel selection was that we could only make changes in the first month, and when I called, they enforced that.

But, as it turned out, my year was up and my bill went to about $35 a month. Still no big deal, but it opened up another option. They offered me the one year deal for basic cable, which means I got just about everything I had before back. Still no CBS Sports or MLB Network, but I'll live. But my bill only went up .17 cents, as my internet and cable got promo'd for a year. Then, in a year, they will let me move back to the 10 channel option, and I can repick.

Spectrum used to be Charter, and they used to have nothing but terrible customer service. But when I went back to them about 5 years ago or so, they have been nothing but perfect, both in their service and in customer service. They even gave me a new modem, so that my internet jumped from 100 Mbps to 200 Mbps for no extra charge. 

When i started with Charter, it was only for internet, as AT&T was getting worse and worse with inconsistent speeds. Ni matter how many tiers I moved up and the speeds I got, I still got a ton of buffering. At that time 12 Mbps was their highest speed AT&T offered, so I jumped to Charter, as they had 30 Mbps. not only was their speed more consistent, I was getting around 40 Mbps. Then they moved it to 60, and later to 100 without ever increasing the price. At 100 Mbps, I was actually getting 130 Mbps. My tests since going to 200 is that I'm getting 205 Mbps.

I've been trying to cut the cord, but spectrum has made it too hard to leave by being pretty awesome.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

I've ditched cable years ago and use indoor antennas on two TV's. Wish I could use the existing coax connected to one garage attic antenna, but I still have cable internet, so it's needed for that. So basically I'm paying for Netflix and cable internet, it's way less expensive than what I was paying for Cable TV and internet.


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## INTL (Aug 5, 2018)

Here's what I did. Your results may vary, but I was able to negotate Verizon down to around $110.00 a month. I already have a Tivo Bolt lifetime, so I am good there. I have the lowest package as well. For ESPN, they now have a Roku channel. Just use a Roku to access your ESPN games and you should be good to go. I was debating on cancelling FiOS all together, but I'd only be saving about $10.00 bucks if I went with Youtube TV or Hulu Live. 100GB Verizon Internet is around $55.00 a month and I bought my own router from Verizon years ago when the new gigabit one came out. Adding Youtube TV or Hulu Live is another $45.00 (with the BS taxes). So, with that said, saving $10.00 a month wasn't worth it. But, if Internet is cheaper for you in your area, by all means, lock the Internet, select Youtube TV or Hulu Live and add ESPN for Roku and you'd be all set.

One thing I did like about the Tivo Bolt universe is not having to pay for the leases of the equipment from the cable company. If you go to eBay or to the marketplace here, you can buy a lifetime Tivo for around $400 bucks and eliminate all fees for equipment completely. I'm working on the rest of my family, but they resist change like the plague. lol.


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## aspexil (Oct 16, 2015)

SlingTV. Can't beat it and with the black AirTV box supposedly can get local OTA DVR. I still haven't got local DVR to work after trying 3 different external drives. But OTA is good and no monthly guide cost. It has become my go-to for OTA even when travelling even though I haven't got the DVR to work. SlingTV also has a lot of VOD so pretty much anything you missed you can go back and see even for several seasons. Cloud DVR is only $5/mo for the streaming channels. That and Amazon Prime which we keep for 2 day shipping. Only do Netflix occasionally for binge sessions in the off season when nothing else is available.


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## reds91185 (Jun 7, 2017)

Pete K said:


> You mention going with Ethernet for connecting the Mini -- would WiFi be an option?


My 2 cents... this setup works great if you have an old router laying around. I have a Bolt and one Mini. The Mini is connected via ethernet to an old Apple Airport Express router that I use as an access point. The Bolt is set to ethernet, the Airport Express gets a great wifi signal from the main router, and the Mini thinks it's connected via ethernet. No problems.

I set mine up this way because the location of the Mini is not convenient to either ethernet or coax for a MoCA connection.


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