# From the CES: Did the CEO of DirecTV just announce the end of MPEG2 in 48 months?



## Leila (Apr 28, 2006)

From the CES: Did the CEO of DirecTV just announce the end of MPEG2 in 24 months?
(translation: end of high definition HR10 Tivos and the forced relocation of
customers to the HR20?)

http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/08/live-coverage-from-directv-press-conference/

Please tell me he didn't really say that when answering the reporter's questions...


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Well, of course he didn't, Lei  . When cornered he mumbled "maybe (MPEG-2 shutoff) in a couple of years", which adds nothing new to current predictions, and is characteristically vague. They don't even know how fast they will do it themselves, at this point. Not only that, but you can interpret "shutting off MPEG-2" to mean just HD, or HD+SD, so that is even more vague. And if you factor in that DTV will be operated by an entirely-new group of folks in 6 months, anything can happen to derail current plans they DO know about. I don't think their magic 8-ball has any answers other than "Reply hazy. Try again later."

But the reality is that HD MPEG-2 could be gone in as little as a year. Unlikely, but possible. Or it might be here another 3-4 years. That is the dice we roll when investing in or upgrading our HR10's. Since I get 95% of my HD OTA, I'm less worried than some.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

>>Since I get 95% of my HD OTA, I'm less worried than some.

Me too, which is why I finally canceled the HD Pkg today. The only thing I really watch is the occasional concert on HDNet. Netflix will do for that media.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

> When do you anticipate shutting off MPEG2?
> At this point we are leaving it up to the customers, it won't be this year, but maybe in a couple years. We will see based on the customers pace. The longer they wait the less it will cost DIRECTV.


That seems to directly contradict what some here have said which is that it would be 18 months at the outside before the MPEG2 shutdown. The truth is what I've said all along, DirecTV is in no hurry to shutdown the the MPEG2 feed and be forced to upgrade a bunch of receivers and/or suffer a bunch of churn.

But the good news for DirecTV fanboys is that "to upgrade from HD to MPEG4 HD there is essentially no charge." So be sure to call in tomorrow and ask for your free HR20.  :up:


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## Squonk (Jun 8, 2005)

Leila said:


> From the CES: Did the CEO of DirecTV just announce the end of MPEG2 in 48 months?
> (translation: end of high definition HR10 Tivos and the forced relocation of
> customers to the HR20?)
> 
> ...


 48 months is 4 frickin years. You want to be stuck watching inferior Mpeg2 for 4 more years? Don't you think that is enough time to get some new equipment? Most people will have run through their first HDTVs by that time. What the heck.


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## fjwagner (Jan 22, 2006)

Squonk said:


> 48 months is 4 frickin years. You want to be stuck watching inferior Mpeg2 for 4 more years? Don't you think that is enough time to get some new equipment? Most people will have run through their first HDTVs by that time. What the heck.


Is MPEG2 inferior? I just thought MPEG4 was a different compression algorithm that gave them more bandwidth and hence the ability to carry more channels.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

fjwagner said:


> Is MPEG2 inferior? I just thought MPEG4 was a different compression algorithm that gave them more bandwidth and hence the ability to carry more channels.


An algorithm can not give a satellite channel more bandwidth  ...


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

MPEG-2 HD may or may not be going away at some time in the near to intermediate term. However I predict that MPEG-2 SD wil be around until the Ku birds fall out of the sky. Anything different would be sheer lunacy. There are too many legacy SD receivers out there for DirecTV to even consider replacing them until they absolutely have to.


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

Squonk said:


> 48 months is 4 frickin years. You want to be stuck watching inferior Mpeg2 for 4 more years? Don't you think that is enough time to get some new equipment? Most people will have run through their first HDTVs by that time. What the heck.


MPEG4 offers no quality improvements over MPEG2. Wherever did you come up with such an idea? It is a compression algorithm that gives DirecTV enough additional bandwidth so they can offer Shopping Network and Somali TV and a zillion other channels you will never watch.

This isn't about quality--it's about money.


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## muchmore (Dec 14, 2006)

I am so upset. I spent $1000 to get HD TiVo for DirecTV and now it is already becoming obsolete with the implementation of MPEG-4. I really feel burned about it. Granted, I can "upgrade" to the new HD DVR from DirecTV, but I won't own it - DTV is only leasing their equipment now. So basically, my HD Tivo is going to become a $1000 doorstop. I will NEVER buy a TiVo again (and it looks like I won't have any choice in the matter since I am sticking with DirecTV).


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## GreyGhost00 (Mar 11, 2004)

You're upset that you're going to be able to use your HR10-250 for another four years? Geez. Don't overreact. Your HD-Tivo will continue to work (on software 3.1.5f that is) for a long time to come.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

muchmore said:


> I am so upset. I spent $1000 to get HD TiVo for DirecTV and now it is already becoming obsolete with the implementation of MPEG-4. I really feel burned about it.


Why? Any electronic stuff you buy these days has a short price retention. Look at computers. Any Intel CPU you buy from is going to drop 60% in two years. I remember what I paid for my first digital camera. It was over $900 bucks, 3 years later it was valued at $80 bucks on ebay.

As I see it for most of us who paid a grand for that HR10 it's going to give us 3+ years before we will be in position that we must upgrade. I don't consider that abnormal for technology. The fact that D* will give us a freebie with a 2 year commitment is also not a bad deal. But if D* does not add more HD movie channels soon I doubt I will sign a 2 year deal. At that point I will move to cable or FIOS.


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## StarsHockey (Feb 21, 2003)

gquiring said:


> Why? Any electronic stuff you buy these days has a short price retention. Look at computers. Any Intel CPU you buy from is going to drop 60% in two years. I remember what I paid for my first digital camera. It was over $900 bucks, 3 years later it was valued at $80 bucks on ebay.
> 
> As I see it for most of us who paid a grand for that HR10 it's going to give us 3+ years before we will be in position that we must upgrade. I don't consider that abnormal for technology. The fact that D* will give us a freebie with a 2 year commitment is also not a bad deal. But if D* does not add more HD movie channels soon I doubt I will sign a 2 year deal. At that point I will move to cable or FIOS.


Freebie? In my market D/FW they are saying $99 and $20 for shipping and handeling. What is the trick to freebie?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

muchmore said:


> So basically, my HD Tivo is going to become a $1000 doorstop. I will NEVER buy a TiVo again (and it looks like I won't have any choice in the matter since I am sticking with DirecTV).


Sounds like you're mad at the wrong company.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

The trick is to wait until they offer it. 

(probably once MPEG4 'rules' and they are getting ready to boot MPEG2)


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## Leila (Apr 28, 2006)

sorry... I meant 24 months... not sure how I interpreted "two years" to be 48 months....    I guess I can put "me don't do math" next to "me don't speak no English" on my resumes....   

I have two HR20s that DirecTV sent me when my HR10s were about to die. 
Didn't like the HR20s... so I had my HR10s fixed at my own expense. Got DirecTV
to give me some credit for that... I forgot to return the HR20s and DirecTV didn't
seem to care/know.(that was many months ago) Now the two lonely HR20s are
just sitting in their boxes in my attic.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

The question wasn't clear.... if they are referring to MPEG-2 everything, or MPEG-2 HD.

If it is longer then 2008... I'll be surprised.

I would expect to hear some more on that at tonights Citigroup presentation from Chase.


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## dbett (Aug 13, 2001)

Well I must say the Comcast Tivo box looks nice.


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## Squonk (Jun 8, 2005)

ShiningBengal said:


> MPEG4 offers no quality improvements over MPEG2. Wherever did you come up with such an idea? It is a compression algorithm that gives DirecTV enough additional bandwidth so they can offer Shopping Network and Somali TV and a zillion other channels you will never watch.
> 
> This isn't about quality--it's about money.


 Inherent quality no. But the idea is the additional bandwidth will allow them the room 1) to add more HD channels and 2) with less compression artifacts since they are trying to squeeze too much crap on what they have now. Just read all the post complaining about the Directv lousy compression. I would have to think that the new sats would correct some of that. If they choose to just give us 300 more shopping channels, then yes, you are right. The point is, in 4 years she will probably have all different equipment anyway


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## willgetin (Dec 23, 2005)

The quote provided by this link is...


*********************************
When do you anticipate shutting off MPEG2?

At this point we are leaving it up to the customers, it won't be this year, but maybe in a couple years. We will see based on the customers pace. The longer they wait the less it will cost DIRECTV.
*********************************

What this means to me is that if we don't voluntarily upgrade, they won't force us. WE dictate the pace, not them, so don't upgrade!


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

Squonk said:


> Inherent quality no. But the idea is the additional bandwidth will allow them the room 1) to add more HD channels and 2) with less compression artifacts since they are trying to squeeze too much crap on what they have now. Just read all the post complaining about the Directv lousy compression. I would have to think that the new sats would correct some of that. If they choose to just give us 300 more shopping channels, then yes, you are right. The point is, in 4 years she will probably have all different equipment anyway


Well, based on the entire history of DBS both providers will use newer , more efficient compression algorythms to add more channels in the same capacity, not to improve the quality of what they have now, so I doubt we will see any increase in quality long term if they switch to Mpeg 4.

As far as Mpeg 4 giving more bandwidth, rminsk is right, it does not change the bandwidth, it only allows potentially more efficient use of it. Only if they decide to keep quality at the current level when they switch to Mpeg 4 instead of using it to improve quality is any additional capacity freed up.


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## GreyGhost00 (Mar 11, 2004)

willgetin said:


> The quote provided by this link is...
> 
> *********************************
> When do you anticipate shutting off MPEG2?
> ...


That's not what this means. It means at some point DTV will decide that it's no longer cost-prohibitive to upgrade everyone from MPEG2 to MPEG4. The question is when that tipping point will be. My guess is we're talking "years" not "months" at this point.


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## herdfan (Feb 5, 2003)

gquiring said:


> As I see it for most of us who paid a grand for that HR10 it's going to give us 3+ years before we will be in position that we must upgrade.


I'll get more than that. Since I have dual 250's in both of mine, I will "replace" the wife's R10 with an HR10 with 463 hours of SD. She will also be able to record stuff OTA. It will be used until it dies.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

muchmore said:


> I am so upset. I spent $1000 to get HD TiVo for DirecTV and now it is already becoming obsolete with the implementation of MPEG-4. I really feel burned about it. Granted, I can "upgrade" to the new HD DVR from DirecTV, but I won't own it - DTV is only leasing their equipment now. So basically, my HD Tivo is going to become a $1000 doorstop. I will NEVER buy a TiVo again (and it looks like I won't have any choice in the matter since I am sticking with DirecTV).


Well, it's been the well known plan for 2 years now.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> ...I predict that MPEG-2 SD wil be around until the Ku birds fall out of the sky...


I tend to agree with you, but at least one of the current Ku birds has an expected end-of-life of 2006. Yes, that 2006.

But even so, there is no reason some transponders on the Spaceway sats can't be temporarily remapped to continue carriage of MPEG-2 channels under Ku, for as long as is needed.

Of course sats rarely fall from the sky, usually they become less controllable and wobble, eventually to the point where they are impractical for fixed dishes, so even the 2006 bird might have a couple years of DBS future in it.



Squonk said:


> ...You want to be stuck watching inferior Mpeg2 for 4 more years?...


Digitally-encoded video is by definition not 100% true to its analog source, making the source technically better than the digital copy. Compressing it with MPEG-2 discards part of the original info, so that educated guesses have to be made to decode it, and that then by definition is even worse, due to inevitable errors in the process. MPEG-4 discards significantly more information than MPEG-2, so there is no way it can produce technically better PQ than MPEG-2, taken on its own.

If you chain MPEG-2 local DT channels with a MPEG-4 encoding stage, the result of that is typically worse than encoding with either MPEG-4 or MPEG-2 alone, so improving PQ is probably not on the menu for DTV subs, since that is exactly what DTV is doing. That said, there are opportunities in certain situations where a better end result can be had using MPEG-4. But DTV's application is sadly not likely to be one of them.


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## drjjr (May 28, 2004)

For me it's not even the MPEG4 vs MPEG2 that will get me to switch to the HR20. 24 months is an eternity in consumer electronics and in that time I'm guessing that (on top of the features that the HR20 already has) they will be adding more features that I might want. Better VOD, interactive programming AND then there are the new HD channels. It already has the Viiv PC support for music and photos and the gap between features that the HR10 has will only widen.

Honestly with the problems my HR10 is having lately (reboots, shortened recordings), I've been lurking the HR20 forums to see where it's at...but it's like trading the devil you know for...well, you know. I got "the look" from my wife the other night when the recording of Medium was only 12 minutes long. Getting what I want recorded when I want it recorded is the ONLY job that the HR10 has and it's been failing at that of late. To me that puts it in the ballpark with the HR20: in need of some software updates to become a DVR. After that it just becomes a question of which UI I want to deal with and what other bells and whistles I might want in addition to the basic stuff my VCR could do without rebooting.

Thank goodness for my Replaytv and poopli.com.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Record a lot of HD on that Replay, do you?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

MPEG2 for SD on the KU sats I don't think is going anywhere. No way D* is going to replace 30+ million receivers.

But it's been the plan forever to move the MPEG2 HD channels on the KU sats over to the KA sats and also in MPEG4. Remember, MPEG4 has nothing to do with the new sats other then that D* is going to use MPEG4 for any channels on the KA sats. They could just as easily use MPEG2 or Divx for that matter.

Anyway, we're probably under 2 years for the MPEG2 HD to get moved. Probably by Sunday Ticket 2008. If not by then, they'll have no hurry until ST 09. But the sooner they get them moved the sooner they can add in a lot more SD channels (such as the Cinemax and HBO channels that are missing) or *gasp* actually improve SD PQ a little.

This is a good thing all around.


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## drjjr (May 28, 2004)

uhhh...no...but when my beloved HR10-250 goes belly up during its recording of an HD program, I'd rather settle for a sucky SD version of the show that some kind soul can send to my Replay over the internet than no version at all. Call me crazy.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

drjjr said:


> uhhh...no...but when my beloved HR10-250 goes belly up during its recording of an HD program, I'd rather settle for a sucky SD version of the show that some kind soul can send to my Replay over the internet than no version at all. Call me crazy.


Not at all. A nice option. I record SD copies, too, but I try to hold on until it comes around in HD again. I can barely watch DVDs or any other SD. Call me spoiled.


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## Squonk (Jun 8, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> But the sooner they get them moved the sooner they can add in a lot more SD channels (such as the Cinemax and HBO channels that are missing) or *gasp* actually improve SD PQ a little.
> 
> This is a good thing all around.


That's what I said in an earlier post and got jumped on by people who think that going to MPEG 4 won't mean any improvement in quality at all. I guess I am not the only crazy one to think adding more bandwidth could improve the overcompressed PQ of what the overextended Directv birds are putting out now....


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## drjjr (May 28, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> Not at all. A nice option. I record SD copies, too, but I try to hold on until it comes around in HD again. I can barely watch DVDs or any other SD. Call me spoiled.


Trust me, I know the feeling. But I then I have to abandon the season of a show and wait for the reruns in the summer. And then there's "that look."


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## herdfan (Feb 5, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> I tend to agree with you, but at least one of the current Ku birds has an expected end-of-life of 2006. Yes, that 2006.
> 
> But even so, there is no reason some transponders on the Spaceway sats can't be temporarily remapped to continue carriage of MPEG-2 channels under Ku, for as long as is needed.


Yes, and there are 2 in orbit spares right now (D* 8 & 9S) so that won't be a problem.

The Spaceways can carry MPEG-2, but they can't transmit Ku.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

herdfan said:


> I'll get more than that. Since I have dual 250's in both of mine, I will "replace" the wife's R10 with an HR10 with 463 hours of SD. She will also be able to record stuff OTA. It will be used until it dies.


My only OTA is CBS, I doubt I will keep it around for one channel. But I do agree it's a good OTA device as long as D* keeps the guide data going....


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

herdfan said:


> Yes, and there are 2 in orbit spares right now (D* 8 & 9S) so that won't be a problem.
> 
> The Spaceways can carry MPEG-2, but they can't transmit Ku.


Well then they may have made a very huge mistake. They certainly had the opportunity to launch a sat that is a Ku/Ka hybrid, such as the newer AMC sats, which can remap on the fly. Silly me for assuming they had some foresight. Leave it to DTV to do it on the cheap.


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## bullwinklehdtv (Dec 3, 2005)

herdfan said:


> I'll get more than that. Since I have dual 250's in both of mine, I will "replace" the wife's R10 with an HR10 with 463 hours of SD. She will also be able to record stuff OTA. It will be used until it dies.


I agree, even if I get HR20s, I plan to keep the HR10 going for a long, long time for SD and OTA HD


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Squonk said:


> That's what I said in an earlier post and got jumped on by people who think that going to MPEG 4 won't mean any improvement in quality at all. I guess I am not the only crazy one to think adding more bandwidth could improve the overcompressed PQ of what the overextended Directv birds are putting out now....


That is not quite what you said, but it may be what you meant, I guess. What you said referred to "inferior MPEG-2", and MPEG-2 is not inferior in PQ to MPEG-4 when encoding similar video formats (such as HD) for DBS, and is typically superior in PQ to OTA MPEG-2 channels converted to MPEG-4, which is DTV's evil plan for most HD. No one jumped, but the broadness of that characterization begged for a clarification, IMHO. Certainly not meant to chastise, just to clarify, so please don't take offense.

Neither of you are crazy, but I am pretty sure that you are both incorrect. Seeing as how DTV will start the encoding process with PQ inferior to MPEG-2, speaking from experience even a large easement of transport stream compression will not likely result in a better end result, and I would not even expect a minimal reduction of transport stream compression, because that doesn't buy them anything, while keeping compression essentially the same under MPEG-4 does.

And this does not technically add bandwidth, but it does allow them to stuff more unwatchable channels into the bandwidth they have.

But correct or not, there is certainly enough doubt about DTV's future to not take their claims of hundreds of new HD channels and improved PQ at face value. That is a "bird not in the hand", and if a competitor actually gives better PQ, better selection, better service, etc., staying with a vendor with this track record that only has empty promises to give seems like a very bad idea to me.


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## herdfan (Feb 5, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> Silly me for assuming they had some foresight. Leave it to DTV to do it on the cheap.


The problem was that the Spaceways came to D* as part of the sale from Hughes to NewsCorp. The were originally going to be used for satellite internet. So they were already well into production by the time D* got them and it was probably too late to change them.

Now D* did add some Ka capacity to both D* 8 & 9S.


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## Rinkdog (Dec 21, 2005)

Don't worry about mpeg 4 making your receiver obsolete in 4 years. The hard drives will have long been shot on these things by that time.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

nrc said:


> That seems to directly contradict what some here have said which is that it would be 18 months at the outside before the MPEG2 shutdown. The truth is what I've said all along, DirecTV is in no hurry to shutdown the the MPEG2 feed and be forced to upgrade a bunch of receivers and/or suffer a bunch of churn.
> 
> But the good news for DirecTV fanboys is that "to upgrade from HD to MPEG4 HD there is essentially no charge." So be sure to call in tomorrow and ask for your free HR20.  :up:


Yea.. good luck with that.


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## sshah19 (Jan 10, 2007)

Confused on one point...

...heck actually confused on a lot of points, but let's start with one:

I understand _eventually_ all the HD content will be mpeg4. But will the "100 new HD channels" supposedly coming out this year be mpeg2 or mpeg4 then (in the immediate-term)?

And if mpeg2, will my Triple-LNB be able to get them?


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

rmassey said:


> >>Since I get 95% of my HD OTA, I'm less worried than some.
> 
> Me too, which is why I finally canceled the HD Pkg today. The only thing I really watch is the occasional concert on HDNet. Netflix will do for that media.


I cancelled it after it stopped being free. All I watched was my OTA HD channels, and Showtime and HBO HD. When I realized I didn't have to pay $11/month to get those, it was gone.



-h


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

nrc said:


> But the good news for DirecTV fanboys is that "to upgrade from HD to MPEG4 HD there is essentially no charge." So be sure to call in tomorrow and ask for your free HR20.  :up:


Yah, the key phrase there is "essentially free" wtf does that mean? It means you have to call retention and threaten to quit in order to get your free HR20, and then you still pay $20 shipping.

I called in for my boss last weekend to activate an old SD DirecTivo in his guest room. He has 3 HR10-250s in his house he paid $800 each for and they told me he was eligable for a free R15, or for $100 off the HR20, meaning for $199 he could pay for the pleasure of beta testing an HR20 for DirecTV, and oh he'd have to re-up for 2 more years of service. What a joke.

Then it took me an hour and talking to 3 reps to get them to activate an old Hughes HDVR2 DirecTivo because it didn't have an IRD number, as it was a non-IRD device.

-h


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

Rinkdog said:


> Don't worry about mpeg 4 making your receiver obsolete in 4 years. The hard drives will have long been shot on these things by that time.


My Sony SAT-T60 from December 2001 is still rockin' and rollin'.

-h


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

sshah19 said:


> Confused on one point...
> 
> ...heck actually confused on a lot of points, but let's start with one:
> 
> ...


MPEG4 only. You'll need an H20 or HR20 box and a 5LNB dish to watch them, and you'll need to re-up for 2 years on your DirecTV contract to *pay* to *lease* any hardware from them.

Oh and the channels will have to actually exist too, which currenlty most of the ones on DirecTV's vaporware channel list do not. To have an "agreement in principle" (quote from the announcement) doesn't mean much. Take an "agreement in principle" in one hand and take a crap in your other hand and what are you left with?

-h


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

harley3k said:


> Yah, the key phrase there is "essentially free" wtf does that mean? It means you have to call retention and threaten to quit in order to get your free HR20, and then you still pay $20 shipping.


Of course, I was joking with that. It's one of the most egregious lies I've seen from a company in a while.


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

muchmore said:


> I am so upset. I spent $1000 to get HD TiVo for DirecTV and now it is already becoming obsolete with the implementation of MPEG-4. I really feel burned about it. Granted, I can "upgrade" to the new HD DVR from DirecTV, but I won't own it - DTV is only leasing their equipment now. So basically, my HD Tivo is going to become a $1000 doorstop. I will NEVER buy a TiVo again (and it looks like I won't have any choice in the matter since I am sticking with DirecTV).


Wahhh Wahhh!!! How many people do you think have 3 year old laptops that cost over $1000 that wont run Vista?


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## rcawood (Jun 19, 2004)

harley3k said:


> My Sony SAT-T60 from December 2001 is still rockin' and rollin'.
> 
> -h


I believe my T60 is Dec 1999 - Still the orginal hard drive


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

bullwinklehdtv said:


> I agree, even if I get HR20s, I plan to keep the HR10 going for a long, long time for SD and OTA HD


Why? SD is SD no matter the unit...and the HR20 has 2 OTA tuners...you don't have to watch the SAT network HD feed, you can pick up the HD OTA feed with the OTA tuners the same way you do it now with the HR10...

once the HR20 is bug free, it becomes an issue of Tivo or no Tivo...keeping the HR10 for the OTA tuners is not a valid reason...


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## timb2112 (Dec 2, 2005)

rmassey said:


> >>Since I get 95% of my HD OTA, I'm less worried than some.
> 
> Me too, which is why I finally canceled the HD Pkg today. The only thing I really watch is the occasional concert on HDNet. Netflix will do for that media.


I canceled mine last night. I received a card from DTV offering four free months around Christmas. They know their content sucks.


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## bullwinklehdtv (Dec 3, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Why? SD is SD no matter the unit...and the HR20 has 2 OTA tuners...you don't have to watch the SAT network HD feed, you can pick up the HD OTA feed with the OTA tuners the same way you do it now with the HR10...
> 
> once the HR20 is bug free, it becomes an issue of Tivo or no Tivo...keeping the HR10 for the OTA tuners is not a valid reason...


Why not- For $5 per month I get as many OTA storage hours as I want (since I can add a bigger drive) from two cities (Baltimore and DC) and save the HR20 storage for all those 100 national channels.  As soon as the HR20 has dual live buffers and other undocumented features (see Tivo Underground) I'll reconsider.


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## fjwagner (Jan 22, 2006)

rminsk said:


> An algorithm can not give a satellite channel more bandwidth  ...


then please explain in more depth since I have it so wrong.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

fjwagner said:


> then please explain in more depth since I have it so wrong.


I think what he means is the amount of bandwidth remains constant, it's just that more of it is free when you compress the signal a lot more...

it's like you have a 100 GB hard drive with 20 GB free...you zip all your files so now you have 60 GB free...you didn't increase the size of your hard drive (bandwidth), you just can store more (have more free bandwidth)


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## fjwagner (Jan 22, 2006)

Anubys said:


> I think what he means is the amount of bandwidth remains constant, it's just that more of it is free when you compress the signal a lot more...
> 
> it's like you have a 100 GB hard drive with 20 GB free...you zip all your files so now you have 60 GB free...you didn't increase the size of your hard drive (bandwidth), you just can store more (have more free bandwidth)


and that is exactly what I meant with my original statement. Could have worded somewhat better. I took some exception to the sarcastic response by RMINSK.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

fjwagner said:


> and that is exactly what I meant with my original statement. Could have worded somewhat better. I took some exception to the sarcastic response by RMINSK.


I also interpreted your statement that way...but, in fairness, that's not what you said!


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

KungFuCow said:


> Yea.. good luck with that.


Funny I called in about a month ago and got a free HR20.

Guess you just got to be the right kind of customer.


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

marksman said:


> Funny I called in about a month ago and got a free HR20.
> 
> Guess you just got to be the right kind of customer.


Did you have to talk to someone in retention?

-h


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## 3DEngr (Dec 14, 2005)

Not to be overly pedantic here, but a better compression algorithm does indeed increase your available bandwidth. You're incorrectly using only one definition of bandwidth when there are two. Analog bandwidth is the defined as the frequency range available in the communications channel and is measured in Hz. Digital bandwidth is defined as the informational capacity of channel and is measured in bits/second. If you increase the amount of bits/second that you can transfer in a given frequency range, you've increased the bandwidth. For instance, if I used to be able to transfer 100Mbit/s, but with this new compression algorithm, I can now transfer 200Mbit/s, I just doubled my bandwidth.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

3DEngr said:


> Not to be overly pedantic here, but a better compression algorithm does indeed increase your available bandwidth. You're incorrectly using only one definition of bandwidth when there are two. Analog bandwidth is the defined as the frequency range available in the communications channel and is measured in Hz. Digital bandwidth is defined as the informational capacity of channel and is measured in bits/second. If you increase the amount of bits/second that you can transfer in a given frequency range, you've increased the bandwidth. For instance, if I used to be able to transfer 100Mbit/s, but with this new compression algorithm, I can now transfer 200Mbit/s, I just doubled my bandwidth.


:up:

I'm being sincere here: I can't tell you how great I think it is you've been a registered user for 13 months, and you were prompted by a couple of statements in this thread to make your first post!

Thanks for posting and reminding us that there is more than one way to look at pretty much anything.


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