# Recording quality problem?



## smokie (Dec 27, 2002)

As you may remember (probably not!) I've recently bought a large (37") TV. I have a few questions and issues.

1) I changed the default recording quality to Best from Basic. Nothing changed, so on investigating I found that anything already scheuled would not change. I've therefore gone through all Season Passes and changed them to Best, and now look a whole lot better. But Suggestions are still recording at Basic, and I cleared the Suggestions list using TiVoweb a week or so back, so these are new suggestions. Have I overlooked something?

2) I don't fully understand TV/PVR technology (bitrates etc) but I am a pretty capable computer person, so while I'm not fazed by the Mode 0 thread, what would I gain, and would it be worth it?

3) I'm having Virgin Plus installed in a week or so, not for the HD or the PVR but simply to reduce the complexity and amount of cabling under the telly (as I currently use Sky as well as Virgin to input to the theatre, then to whizz it all around the house). I won't be using HD output on V+ as it disables all other outputs (and anyway they are hardly showing any HD). Is there anything I can be doing now to prepare for the change? (including remote codes etc)

(Just for interest, while Virgin wouldn't discount the £150 installation of V+, they reduced my monthly outgoing by £19 per month which more than covers it during the first year. As I have XL TV there is no monthly charge for V+. I can have my old Virgin box installed in another room for £5 pm)

Thanks all


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

I can only really address your first point as I don't have a V+ or use Mode 0 

Yes, you are missing something  

Suggestions use the video quality setting which you can find as follows: Messages & Settings -> My Preferences -> Video Recording Quality.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

smokie said:


> 1...But Suggestions are still recording at Basic, and I cleared the Suggestions list using TiVoweb a week or so back, so these are new suggestions. Have I overlooked something?


If you're using Endpad it has an option to set suggestions to a different quality to the default recording mode. You'll need to edit the start up command in sysinit.author.


smokie said:


> 2...what would I gain, and would it be worth it?


Mode 0 increases the resolution (number of pixels) recorded to the same as DVD. The electronics in modern TVs are designed to work well with these resolutions - more so than the weird non standard NTSC/PAL hybrid Tivo uses by default for cable sources. The end result is likely to be a noticable improvement in picture quality - I saw it on a 32" CRT.

Variable Bit Rate allows the encoder to use more disk space for fast moving action and less for slow moving things (news readers etc.) - you should see less blocking when lots happens on screen. If you ever watch a ticker tape parade scene with disco lighting (Top of the Pops etc.) then screen can degrade into a mosaic of blocks, with VBR and a hgih maximum bit rate this is less common.

The net effect of turing on Mode 0 (More pixels=more disk space used) and VBR (less disk space used) is that you end up with broadly the same disk capacity but better picture quality - that also looks better if it makes its way off Tivo and onto a shiny disc.

The only downside of Mode 0 is that you will end up with white flashes (and other colours) on the bottom of the screen during high contrast scenes like credits. The extent will vary from Tivo to Tivo and by source. Interestingly I get fewer on my Wharfdale Freeview than I got on Telewest with a Pace 2000. You have to suck it and see but I would recommend it.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

AMc said:


> Mode 0 increases the resolution (number of pixels) recorded to the same as DVD. The electronics in modern TVs are designed to work well with these resolutions - more so than the weird non standard NTSC/PAL hybrid Tivo uses by default for cable sources. The end result is likely to be a noticable improvement in picture quality - I saw it on a 32" CRT.


Also very true for HD LCD panels and TVs - which tend to look horrible with the standard TiVo modes but work well with Mode 0 as the scaling alogorithms are very clearly optimised to look good with SD DVD sources.



AMc said:


> The net effect of turing on Mode 0 (More pixels=more disk space used) and VBR (less disk space used) is that you end up with broadly the same disk capacity but better picture quality


In many cases you get significantly more space - most of my Mode 0 files are at least 25% smaller than equivalent sized "best" recordings.



AMc said:


> The only downside of Mode 0 is that you will end up with white flashes (and other colours) on the bottom of the screen during high contrast scenes like credits. The extent will vary from Tivo to Tivo and by source. Interestingly I get fewer on my Wharfdale Freeview than I got on Telewest with a Pace 2000. You have to suck it and see but I would recommend it.


The white flashes are a definite oddity - but with a good quality digital source they are rarely a significant problem. The only customers of mine who have noticed them to the extent that they wanted to turn Mode 0 off have been those using the analogue tuner, which does tend to aggravate the white flashes due to the extra noise in the picture.


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## johala_reewi (Oct 30, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> The white flashes are a definite oddity - but with a good quality digital source they are rarely a significant problem. The only customers of mine who have noticed them to the extent that they wanted to turn Mode 0 off have been those using the analogue tuner, which does tend to aggravate the white flashes due to the extra noise in the picture.


I found that the white flashes reduced considerably when I changed my freeview box recently so choice of STB would seem to be a factor too.


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

johala_reewi said:


> I found that the white flashes reduced considerably when I changed my freeview box recently so choice of STB would seem to be a factor too.


That's very interesting to hear, I've given up on Mode 0 due to the large quantity of flashes I received. I use a Netgem iPlayer freeview box, and live in a weak signal area.

What box did you change to? As I may be tempted to try Mode 0 again if I can reduce the flashes (I'd also like to give TiVo it's own freeview box so we can watch the occasional conflict on the iPlayer).

Cheers,

Ian


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

AMc said:


> Mode 0 increases the resolution (number of pixels) recorded to the same as DVD. The electronics in modern TVs are designed to work well with these resolutions - more so than the weird non standard NTSC/PAL hybrid Tivo uses by default for cable sources. The end result is likely to be a noticable improvement in picture quality - I saw it on a 32" CRT.


Looks like I might have to finally get around to investigating Mode 0 then


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

verses - I use the &#163;25 Wharfedale from Argos (see sig). Cheap and cheerful if a little 70's in the case dept and good in a weak signal area.
Sound drop outs are the only hiccup which may be impulse interference on my weak and overboosted signal or a fault in the box design.


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## Mark Bennett (Sep 17, 2001)

Interestingly - I found that I did not notice white flashes at first (for the first couple of weeks) after going "Mode 0". Then they appeared... 

However, I found that programmes that showed white flashes on screen when watched from Tivo, if then run to DVD and watched from that, did not have the flashes


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Correct. The flashes are introduced by the TiVo MPEG decoder and are not present in the actual recording.


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## smokie (Dec 27, 2002)

Carl - I had turned on Best Quality in Preferences but it was still recording suggestions in Basic. Just realised the box hadn't been rebooted since the change, so I've done that and will wait and see...

Looks like Mode 0 might be the way to go then - thanks for all the help. Will re-find that incredibly helpful-looking Mode 0 thread I was reading a few weeks back.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

smokie said:


> Carl - I had turned on Best Quality in Preferences but it was still recording suggestions in Basic.


Very odd and not at all right 


smokie said:


> Just realised the box hadn't been rebooted since the change, so I've done that and will wait and see...


Shouldn't be necessary.


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## johala_reewi (Oct 30, 2002)

verses said:


> That's very interesting to hear, I've given up on Mode 0 due to the large quantity of flashes I received. I use a Netgem iPlayer freeview box, and live in a weak signal area.
> 
> What box did you change to? As I may be tempted to try Mode 0 again if I can reduce the flashes (I'd also like to give TiVo it's own freeview box so we can watch the occasional conflict on the iPlayer).
> 
> ...


Changed from a Thomson DTI1002 to a Pioneer DBR TF100. Definitely a reduction in Mode 0 flashes with the Pioneer.

On my Tivo, I have reconfigured High to be the old Best (mode4 with VBR) and Best to be Mode0. I can then manually choose between the two.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Out of interest, anyone using Mode0 with VM?


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

I am - v+ box and SA4200dvb box.

Don't see much if any white flashes - maybe 3 per day on BBC channels...


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

johala_reewi said:


> Changed from a Thomson DTI1002 to a Pioneer DBR TF100. Definitely a reduction in Mode 0 flashes with the Pioneer.
> 
> On my Tivo, I have reconfigured High to be the old Best (mode4 with VBR) and Best to be Mode0. I can then manually choose between the two.


Thanks for that Johala, the Pioneer looks as though it may be a bit tricky to get hold of. But it's reassuring to think that a better/different Freeview box *may *improve the Mode 0 situation.

Cheers,

Ian


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## dvdfever (Jun 2, 2002)

cwaring said:


> Looks like I might have to finally get around to investigating Mode 0 then


Me too. Is there a straight-forward guide on here? I tried a quick search but was put off at first by reading about white flashes, unless perhaps they cover up TV logos?


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Try this 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=286938&highlight=Mode0


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

cwaring said:


> Out of interest, anyone using Mode0 with VM?





mikerr said:


> I am - v+ box and SA4200dvb box.


Do you see the difference in picture quality, if you remember what it was like before M0? I have a 32" W/S (but not HD) LCD TV.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

cwaring said:


> Do you see the difference in picture quality, if you remember what it was like before M0? I have a 32" W/S (but not HD) LCD TV.


Absolutely. 
I was considering ditching the tivo when I bought my 37" LCD because the TV showed the compression up so much.
Some TV's prefer mode0 (DVD) resolution to standard tivo's resolution.

Now I can't readily spot which is tivo when repeatedly pressing aux ! (Panasonic Viera 37" LCD)

I maybe should declare an interest though - I sell mode-0 enabled hard disks on eBay....

BTW the picture quality is better on the V+ box than the "normal" SA4200 digibox. I even "proved" this by swapping the boxes around the house once...


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## smokie (Dec 27, 2002)

cwaring said:


> Very odd and not at all right
> 
> Shouldn't be necessary.


Carl (or anyone else) - default quality in Preferences is set to Best, if I record what's currently on Live it goes to Best, but Suggestions are still recording at Basic - and I have rebooted. Any thoughts?


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Its probably endpad, you need to take out the option "-sugqual 0" (record suggestions in basic).


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Do you see the difference in picture quality, if you remember what it was like before M0? I have a 32" W/S (but not HD) LCD TV.


You should definitely see a difference. Your TV may not be HD ready, but it's almost certainly an HD panel.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> Your TV may not be HD ready, but it's almost certainly an HD panel.


Of course, you'd know about these things but why would it be? Certainly no reason for it. I mean, why go to the expense if it's not needed. Then again I think it was around £1,200 when new. FYI, it's a Panny TX-32PD30.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

TX32PD30 is a CRT TV and a very nice one at that :up:

You will definitely see the improvements Mode 0 bring - probably better than with many LCD panels!


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

That is indeed a very nice Panny; I had the 36-inch version. But it's not an LCD!

The Mode 0 improvement is less noticeable on a CRT; the way the CRT works means that each scan line is already "smoothed" so the extra resolution is not so clear.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

He will also benefit from the cleaner colours with Mode 0 though - less red/green bleed than standard "best". 

I had the 36" Panny too and it was a fantastic picture - the only problem was that the size of the tube and poor manufacturing tolerances meant there were colour purity issues around the corners of the screen. After swapping it for a replacement under warranty - twice! - I ended up getting a refund and buying a Panny plasma instead. The picture isn't as good, technically, but it's a lot more watchable as it doesn't have pink and purple blobs all over it! It's BIGGER too.... which helps


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Well my eyesight isn't brilliant anyway, hence the specs 

However, I do notice a banding on the picture occasionally; ie it looks like a 256-colour image in certainly places with a lot of one colour; a wall, for example. That's probably just the nature of a digital TV picture, or lack bandwidth in VM's delivery system. Or something.

Of course, with the extra had drive space used by recording everything at 'best' _and_ Mode 0, I might have to get a bigger hard drive  Got a 200-ish (I think) in there at the mo; about 65 hours @ 'Best'. Currently recording stuff on 'high' as it doubles the hours I can get on there.


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## smokie (Dec 27, 2002)

mikerr said:


> Its probably endpad, you need to take out the option "-sugqual 0" (record suggestions in basic).


Looks promising Mike. -suggqual was however set at -1 (default). I changed it to 100 (Best) and will see what happens. Log was showing quality Basic. Doesn't show anything till it's just about to record something, and oddly, there are no suggestions or scheled suggestions showing. Done a Full restart of TiVoWeb.

I reckon that's fixed it though. Thanks again.


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## smokie (Dec 27, 2002)

I've now completed the Mode0 process, in line with Beastman's (?) thread, which made life easy.

I don't see Mode 0 as a choice though - has it replaced Best? (Quality of live TV looks good though...)


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

smokie said:


> I don't see Mode 0 as a choice though - has it replaced Best?


I think that's the idea.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

cwaring said:


> Of course, with the extra had drive space used by recording everything at 'best' _and_ Mode 0, I might have to get a bigger hard drive


Switching to Mode 0 and enabling VBR will _increase _the number of actual hours you have available - although the reported number will go down. I find that Mode 0 recordings at 7500000/9000000 bitrates use consistently less space than a CBR "best" recording at 5960000 :up:


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

I actually already have VBR switched on. I've just used a TW module to change all my SPs to 'best' quality to see if that helps first


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Unless you have also adjusted the rates in tivoweb, then turning VBR on ("Save disk space" in the GUI) doesn't atually do anything...


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## johala_reewi (Oct 30, 2002)

smokie said:


> Carl (or anyone else) - default quality in Preferences is set to Best, if I record what's currently on Live it goes to Best, but Suggestions are still recording at Basic - and I have rebooted. Any thoughts?


Are you using endpad? There is an option there to have suggestions record at a different quality.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

It's like there's an echo in here....
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showpost.php?p=5691880&postcount=3


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> Switching to Mode 0 and enabling VBR will _increase _the number of actual hours you have available - although the reported number will go down. I find that Mode 0 recordings at 7500000/9000000 bitrates use consistently less space than a CBR "best" recording at 5960000 :up:


Presumably Mode 4 (the old Best) with similar VBR settings will give even more total hours than Mode 0 with the same VBR settings though?

Any idea of the typical percentage difference between Mode 4 and Mode 0 with the same VBR numbers? OK I could try it for myself and check the sizes in Tivoweb. Just feeling lazy if you already knew.

And for the record I found Mode 0 white flashes totally intolerable and very intrusive watching Live Tv, especially on some BBC Three programs. Hence I have reverted my Live Tv and Best settings to Mode 4.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> And for the record I found Mode 0 white flashes totally intolerable and very intrusive watching Live Tv, especially on some BBC Three programs. Hence I have reverted my Live Tv and Best settings to Mode 4.


What are you doing watching TV live anyway?   That''s not how to use a Tivo


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Presumably Mode 4 (the old Best) with similar VBR settings will give even more total hours than Mode 0 with the same VBR settings though?


If you mean using VBR settings based on the 5960000 CBR bitrate of standard "best" then I would have though that was obvious.



Pete77 said:


> Any idea of the typical percentage difference between Mode 4 and Mode 0 with the same VBR numbers?


Not a lot. The encoder will 'aim' for the lower bitrate and use more or less depending on the material being recorded. The size of the picture in Mode 0 is a bit bigger than Mode 4, so a static frame will take slightly more bits to encode, but given the fact that the encoder 'aims' for a bitrate, I would expect that if you set the same bitrates for Mode 0 and Mode 4 you would see very similar file sizes unless your recording was continuous fast action, fades and camera pans. The amount of pixellation on Mode 0 under these circumstances might be slightly more, but I doubt if it would be obvious.



Pete77 said:


> I found Mode 0 white flashes totally intolerable and very intrusive watching Live Tv, especially on some BBC Three programs


BBC3 is very bad for white flashes as it is a low bitrate channel with added 'sharpening'. My advice: stop watching the puerile crap they broadcast on BBC3 and get some culture from BBC4 instead


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> BBC3 is very bad for white flashes as it is a low bitrate channel with added 'sharpening'. My advice: stop watching the puerile crap they broadcast on BBC3 and get some culture from BBC4 instead


I still think its a reflection of the type of people who inhabit this forum that distinctly visible white flashes are thought an acceptable tradeoff for higher picture quality in the rest of the picture.

I am sure that any research on a more normal cross section of the public would produce exactly the opposite result.......................

Are we yet at a stage where a good quality Plasma tv gives a better or brighter picture than a CRT? If the old Philips 4:3 would turn up its toes then I would have to go that route but I can see it hanging on determinedly for years now and there's no space for it in any other room in the flat. I suppose I might be able to find someone who wants it take it off my hands for free as taking it down to the scrapheap when its still working perfectly well would seem a bit like committing murder.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> And for the record I found Mode 0 white flashes totally intolerable and very intrusive watching Live Tv, especially on some BBC Three programs. Hence I have reverted my Live Tv and Best settings to Mode 4.


Firstly I like news and that is always best viewed live and secondly when I'm tired I sometimes finding which one of a long list of recordings to watch next too much like hard work.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Pete77 said:


> I still think its a reflection of the type of people who inhabit this forum that distinctly visible white flashes are thought an acceptable tradeoff for higher picture quality in the rest of the picture.


Whether you get any flashes AT ALL varies widely on tivo hardware.

Some setups/tivos don't get any flashes (even on BBC channels), others every few minutes, or even in severe cases every few seconds. You can also fiddle with bitrates to reduce it.

I swapped my tivos around so that the one with no flashes at all was under the big LCD.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> I swapped my tivos around so that the one with no flashes at all was under the big LCD.


Looks like I may have to do some testing on my other Tivo with a Lifetime Sub that I was going to give to someone as an xmas present. Just in case it has less white flashes than my regular Tivo.

On the other hand this one doesn't suffer from the sound loss problem so you can't have it all ways.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Looks like I may have to do some testing on my other Tivo with a Lifetime Sub that I was going to give to someone as an xmas present. Just in case it has less white flashes than my regular Tivo.
> 
> On the other hand this one doesn't suffer from the sound loss problem so you can't have it all ways.


What's your recording source? There have been some observations recently that different STBs can affect the frequency of white flashes. And before you poo-pooh that idea, I've known for a long time that the very worst scenario for white flashes is an analogue source as it has significantly more grain than any STB, so it stands to reason that STBs with a 'smoother' picture will trigger less white flashes than others. As not all STBs are the same, there are bound to be some with smoother and some with granier pictures, hence the difference in white flashes.

Maybe you just need a new STB?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> What's your recording source? There have been some observations recently that different STBs can affect the frequency of white flashes. And before you poo-pooh that idea, I've known for a long time that the very worst scenario for white flashes is an analogue source as it has significantly more grain than any STB, so it stands to reason that STBs with a 'smoother' picture will trigger less white flashes than others. As not all STBs are the same, there are bound to be some with smoother and some with granier pictures, hence the difference in white flashes.
> 
> Maybe you just need a new STB?


My main source is a Sky Panasonic TU-DSB20 box. This is an old box I bought secondhand on Ebay after sulking at having had to pay my residents management company £310 to have a point for a communal Sky satellite system installed. And that cabling doesn't even support Sky+! Sky wanted another £180 and a 12 month contract on top of that to install a new box. Hence why I told them where to stick their new box.

I also have a Netgem IPlayer as a secondary source (for channels that are free on Freeview but not Sky Freesat) via a standalone RF modulator but the picture quality is already so compromised by the RF and the re-modulation from Scart that white flashes become an irrelevant issue.

I also noted that the brand new Pace DS445N box installed at my mother's home last week on the £75 Sky Pay Once Watch Forever is a lot faster changing channel and on the BBC Interactive text services although other than that everthing else seems no different from the Panasonic box.

As my mother's 25" Sony CRT television is black and the Philips OnDigital set top box is near black while the Pace DS445N is white and curvy I did float the idea that swapping it for my perfect black colour match Panasonic TU-DSB20 would be a solution but she seemed a little hostile to this proposal, perhaps fearsing she would be in breach of Sky's stipulations about keeping that box hooked to a viewing card and phone line for the next 12 months.

Anyhow your theory that I may be getting a lot of white flashes due to the age of my Sky box and its more limited picture processing power could I suppose indeed be correct.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Why not pick up a cheap Sky (or, spit!) even a Sky+ box from eBay? My pace Sky box and also the Pace, Thomson and Amstrad Sky+ boxes I've briefly used as sources, all had pretty decent picture quality. Sky+ boxes are generally better in this regard, apparently, and can be had for not too much money if you shop around.


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