# Is anything next after Premier ?



## paul_w_downing (Feb 22, 2002)

I can't justify moving to Premier from S2 Lifetime. Is there anything else coming from TiVo anytime soon, or do I just let my S2's (and TiVO in general)die on the vine. We use it less and less each month.

Any new hardware or rumors about TiVo, or is Premier it for the next few years.

Why is this important ?

Well, when I do buy a new HDTV in the fall I will probably drop TiVo altogether and just go 100% streaming. Then TiVo will probably not make it back into the house ever. Which is a shame because I have loved it so for the past many years.

We are already streaming 80% of what we watch, and TiVo is just there more or less as a backup.

I will miss my old friend TiVo, but I can think of many many things I would rather do with $1000's per year in savings.

My Setup is...
- Playon Software Streams (Amazon, Netflix, Hulu, more) to WD Live, which goes to AV input on my S2. I also have 10 "lifeline" channels that came free with the cable modem I use for internet to catch "broadcast" content. Currently we watch an SD TV. But the WDLive box will support HD if I ever get one.


----------



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

Coming this year you would be able to stream from one Premier to another but I don't tihnk that's what your talking about.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

There are rumors of a 4 tuner TiVo and some sort of dumb extender type advice to stream shows from it to other rooms. However I don't think any of it has been confirmed by TiVo, so who knows when/if it will actually hit the market.

Dan


----------



## shady (May 31, 2002)

paul_w_downing said:


> I can't justify moving to Premier from S2 Lifetime.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


What is it you want from your TiVo? If you can't justify moving to a Premier at the moment, then what do you want from a new TiVo box that would justify the move?

Also, I'm not sure where the $1,000's per year in savings will come from.


----------



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

The Premiere (Series 4) is the current Tivo model, before that, its the Tivo HD and HD XL, Series 3. These will do streaming through Netflix, youtube, downloads from amazon. Series 2 does not do any of these because they are incapable for streaming.


----------



## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

I wondered about the savings, too.

Once I invested in the hardware and purchased lifetime plans, I pay ZERO monthly or annually.

My investment was a ONE-TIME investment and TiVo has paid me back immeasurably by allowing me FULL CONTROL of my viewing habits (and archiving)!

TiVo equipment/service IS PRICELESS! I can't say that about any rented or leased DVR from any source! (unless it happens to be a rented/leased TiVo device, of course!)


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

ufo4sale said:


> Coming this year you would be able to stream from one Premier to another but I don't tihnk that's what your talking about.


When was this announcement made?


----------



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

orangeboy said:


> When was this announcement made?


I heard it somewhere, don't remember where. But I do remember that they wanted to be able to work around the copyright flags that some people get when using MRV.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Can we just finish the Premiere first, before moving to the next product?


----------



## paul_w_downing (Feb 22, 2002)

Thanks for all the tips / rumors.

I gave some thought to the question, what do I want from Tivo on the drive home tonight.

How about an uber directory to all sources of content.

Eg a Seasons Pass, where it will try to identify that hulu, or netflix, OTA, Amazon, or whatever has the content I am looking for. That would totally get me back on board and would be worth paying for. Also the ability to store that content regardless of where it was streamed from.

Plus full DNLA compatibilty, so I can stream content from my 4TB storage server, or turn Tivo into my storage server and stream content from that to other devices.

On the quesiton of Savings.

Comcast Internet Only = $50
Comcast Plus Content = $175.

$125 / month x 12 Months / Year = $1500.

OK, Subtract a little for Netflix, and the occasional purchase from Amazon, but still substancial savings.

Tivo Priemer ~ $200, TiVo Lifetime ~$300 = $500 x 2 Sets = $1000.

OK So this is not so much an arguement against Tivo as it is for streaming.

I understand that Premier can do streaming sort of.

I think the current state of its capability is only netflix, and amazon. If / when it supports hulu that will only be hulu plus.

So my point is why do I need tivo for streaming netflix when my Wii's, Xbox, and PS3 can all stream netflix. If Tivo only supports Hulu Plus, I still want to get hulu basic from somewhere else or have to pay another fee to get hulu plus.

Plus every Blu Ray, HD TV, and any other device I can shake a stick at can also stream, netflix, and hulu, and in many cases amazon.

So, in a streaming world, what does this or any future generation of Tivo have to offer me.

Trust me I want to be convinced. I love Tivo have used it for 10 years, but I just don't see the value moving forward. I hope there is some must have feature in future versions.

To the poster. "Why don't we let tivo finish their current version". This is my main hesitation for premier. It has been out a while. Why is it not finished. Why are there so many problems posted about it. Why would I pay $500 for something that is only 70% baked ? The only problems I used to see on S2 was people who were having problems upgrading their hard drives (for the most part).

Thanks for the help.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I don't have a Premiere (but a single-device 4 tuner box, at the right price, could convince me to upgrade)..

But if you're getting EVERYTHING via streaming, then it sounds like it's not for you.. But if you still want to record TV, have it find time slot changes, use autorecording wishlists, etc.. then get a Tivo.. it's that simple.


----------



## JPS10 (Nov 26, 2010)

Once you finally get an HDTV of reasonable size, you may not be so impressed with streaming. I do some streaming but there are many things for which an HD Tivo of any flavor is the way to go. I would not even consider going without my premiere at this point and looking at the state of tech and the TV business, I am a long way from even considering streaming only. When I really want to treat myself, only Blu Ray will do.


----------



## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

JPS10 said:


> Once you finally get an HDTV of reasonable size, you may not be so impressed with streaming. I do some streaming but there are many things for which an HD Tivo of any flavor is the way to go. I would not even consider going without my premiere at this point and looking at the state of tech and the TV business, I am a long way from even considering streaming only. When I really want to treat myself, only Blu Ray will do.


You got it right. Streamed or downloaded content (SD) looks just passable on my 32" LCD, but the horrid inferiority to even U.S. standard 5.0 MBps DVD (yes, plain old SD DVD), are acutely apparent on the 40" LCD, and one can only imagine even WORSE on larger screens. I personally don't like the current 720P limit on most streaming sites, as this makes any advantage to the larger screens pointless (yes, on occasion, I do sit just a few feet away from the display due to the seating arrangement on one house).

The backbone has to get bigger, but who is going to pay for that?


----------



## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

smbaker said:


> Can we just finish the Premiere first, before moving to the next product?


:up: +1!

That's exactly what I said in the "comments" section of the TiVo Advisor survey that was asking about new products and new features to go with them!


----------



## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Here's another chance for me to say:

If you're considering buying a product, but you *really want* it to have Feature XYZ, then you should only buy it if it already HAS Feature XYZ.

It's that easy. If you follow this simple rule, you won't be disappointed. Sure, you may wait longer to make your purchase. You might NEVER buy a product at all.

I'm *still* waiting for a smart phone that has all the features I want. It hasn't been made yet, though we're getting closer.

As for the Premiere, I think Tivo will make a half-hearted attempt to toss in a few more HD screens and then declare they're finished. A week later, Premiere Plus will debut.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Series3Sub said:


> You got it right. Streamed or downloaded content (SD) looks just passable on my 32" LCD, but the horrid inferiority to even U.S. standard 5.0 MBps DVD (yes, plain old SD DVD), are acutely apparent on the 40" LCD, and one can only imagine even WORSE on larger screens. I personally don't like the current 720P limit on most streaming sites, as this makes any advantage to the larger screens pointless


I have no problems streaming or downloading HD content from the likes of Vudu, Xbox, Amazon, or Netflix. Looks good. Not Blu-ray good, but good.


----------



## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

davezatz said:


> I have no problems streaming or downloading HD content from the likes of Vudu, Xbox, Amazon, or Netflix. Looks good. Not Blu-ray good, but good.


I kind of agree with you, but also kind of agree with the prior poster. I've found the quality to be heavily connection dependent, obviously. Also depends what you tend to watch a lot of - I've had bad luck with pixelated transfers and so on for older movies, for example, but it's not a pervasive issue and is completely understandable IMO.

Really, if you're willing to fork out for the extra bandwidth to really take advantage of streaming (and what about multiple streams going in the house at once, like if you/your wife/kids decide to watch different things?) then sure, go for it. I kind of think the Tivo is like a security blanket a little bit - it makes sure stuff is there for you regardless of issues with streaming providers, unavailable episodes, Internet connection, and so on... but maybe I'm just afraid to let go!


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

paul_w_downing said:


> I gave some thought to the question, what do I want from Tivo on the drive home tonight.
> 
> How about an uber directory to all sources of content.
> 
> Eg a Seasons Pass, where it will try to identify that hulu, or netflix, OTA, Amazon, or whatever has the content I am looking for. That would totally get me back on board and would be worth paying for. Also the ability to store that content regardless of where it was streamed from.


It's not in season passes, but the TiVo search which the Premiers have (and the TiVo HDs/S3s have a beta form of) is at least halfway there. (Once you set up a season pass, show upcoming will only show the OTA/cable showing.)

But Search for a show or movie and it'll search OTA/cable, Amazon, Blockbuster streaming, and Netflix and show you which it's avalible on. TiVo doesn't have Hulu Plus support yet, but I assume when that's added Hulu searching will also merge into that search.

(Oh, and you have the option to try that search on youtube as well, but those results aren't merged in because they'd swamp everything else.)


----------



## paul_w_downing (Feb 22, 2002)

I guess I'll sit on the sidelines a while more and see if new features are added to premier or better hardware comes from TiVo to support everything I want. Meanwhile I have a perfectly fine working installation, except in SD vs. HD.

I would like to see the following (if anyone from TiVo is listening).

#1 Make my TiVo the Media Server of my house, with the ability to stream to/from any DLNA target. (and multiple targets at the same time)

#2 Source neutral Inputs and Recording Capability. (Cable, Sat, OTA, AV or HDMI, Internet (hulu basic, hulu plus, netflix, amazon, espn3, etc)

#3 Full Browser Support, for example to watch shows that are only on the source website, but not streamed through any service.

#4 Full cross indexed search and Seasons pass capability across all available sources from #2.

All in a stable, well supported platform for under $300 + subscriptions.

Is this asking to much ?

I think anything less than this they will lose long term in the market place. 

I read recently that Netflix has more subscribers than Comcast. If anyone thinks that streaming is not the wave of the future they have their heads in the sand. These are the same people that said that cell phones will never replace land lines. I understand all the limitations of streaming, but it will get fixed because this is what the consumer is demanding. Not time shifting, but instant on demand of everything. TiVo removed the contraints and made time shifting easy, fun, possible. But I fear if they don't get ahead of the curve on these other topics it will be too late for them. Tivo could be a hybrid between timeshifting and streaming. What if it used (legal) bittorrent like features to move HD content around the internet off hours ? So if you did not mind waiting 24 hours you could have full HD1080P video stored on your TiVo. Otherwise you can stream live at 720p ?

When I shut off cable (video), my kids did not even notice for about 3 months. They were already watching everything they cared about online on their PC's, Wii, Xbox.

Stream Baby Stream !


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

paul_w_downing said:


> s.
> 
> Is this asking to much ?


YES.

What you asked for was a high end HTPC for $300 - you do get what a joke that is don't you?

If you built a HTPC yourself that had both cable card and OTA DVR support the bottom end would be over $1000. If you purchased a custom built one you are talking about several thousands of dollars.

You might just as well expect BMW to build you a 7 series car for 20 grand.

Thanks,


----------



## paul_w_downing (Feb 22, 2002)

I understand your point.

Yes, It was mostly a joke. Of course I want everything and to pay close to nothing. 

However, I also don't want to pay a lot and get a little or something that is 1/2 baked, or has many open issues with it. Besides, I look at it like cell phones and game consoles. Tivo get's their money on the back end. W/ Advertising, Monthly Subscriptions, I assume kickbacks from Hulu, Amazon, and more. So yes, I do expect TiVo to subsidize my hardware if they want to lock me in for long term contracts.

If a $80 ROKU / WDLive Box can do 60% of what I'm asking I don't think the price moves up to $1000 because Tivo layers a nice front end on it and sticks a hard drive in it.

If a new unit cost $300 + $300 lifetime, and it costs them $1000 to produce (which I doubt), then they should be able to get $100 + a year from advertising and other revenue for a break even in a few years.

I don't assume that my brand new super cellphone that comes free with a 2 year contract really costs $0 to produce either.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

davezatz said:


> I have no problems streaming or downloading HD content from the likes of Vudu, Xbox, Amazon, or Netflix. Looks good. Not Blu-ray good, but good.


yeah, The OP will need to consider moving on from his playon setup if he wants HD.

What I have not seen mentioned is OTA that would also be a good source of HD and is free. Get a premiere (~ 500$) and stream netflix in HD (albeit not as good an interface as xbox and all) and get HD OTA on same box. Maybe by decision time Hulu+ will be out on TiVo and we will know how that streaming looks.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

paul_w_downing said:


> I understand your point.
> 
> Yes, It was mostly a joke. Of course I want everything and to pay close to nothing.
> 
> ...


Well a Premiere isn't a high end HTPC so I am sure the hardware doesn't cost them that much.

However TiVo's not making a profit so what they are charging isn't working out for them.

TiVo is trying to do something that no one else is trying to do so there are no clear cut alternatives to look at. A custom built HTPC is the only thing that can offer all the functionality of a TiVo and those still have issues while costing substantially more.

My personal belief is that while cable cards allowed TiVo to continue into the digital (& HD) cable world, they really are the problem.  They add lots of costs and way to much complexity for most consumers.

If the Premiere worked as easily with cable as it does for OTA (basically plug the cable in with no extra costs) I am fairly sure TiVo would be doing very well and perhaps they would have had enough resources to get the streaming part of the Premiere working at least as well as a Roku box.

Thanks,


----------



## paul_w_downing (Feb 22, 2002)

You are right on the money. This was/is my original plan "A". 

I'm just second guessing myself to wait and see what is around the corner or if Premier stabalizes. Hulu on TiVo was announced, when, last year. Where is it?

I'm penny wise and pound foolish. 

But.............

If I drop $1000 on an HDTV, then I drop $600 on Tivo, $300 for decent OTA setup, then I sub to Hulu Premier for $120 / year, what have I gained over my current set up other than a better PQ ? $2000 seems like a lot of money to move from 480i to mostly 720p content and occasionally 1080p content.

Does 1080p make "dancing with the stars" less crappy? (just kidding no offense).

Maybe its a lifestyle question vs a TiVo technology Question.


----------



## paul_w_downing (Feb 22, 2002)

To Cablecards - EXACTLY! 

I've called Comcast several times when I was getting close to buying Premier. Every single time I get a different answer. Free, Not Free, Service Call Required, Just come in and pickthem up. Every time something different. Plus I don't get On Demand with a cable card. On my S2, I could work around with a manual record because there was an AV input. But On Premier I am SOL.

I want choice, Sat, Cab, OTA, Streaming, and I want it all easy. I know I'm asking for a lot. I really understand that. I know that my frankenstein setup is more than most people want to bite off. My out of pocket was maybe $300. But it works well enough for my wife and kids to use with very little tech support from me.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

paul_w_downing said:


> If I drop $1000 on an HDTV, then I drop $600 on Tivo, $300 for decent OTA setup, then I sub to Hulu Premier for $120 / year, what have I gained over my current set up other than a better PQ ? $2000 seems like a lot of money to move from 480i to mostly 720p content and occasionally 1080p content.
> 
> Does 1080p make "dancing with the stars" less crappy? (just kidding no offense).
> 
> Maybe its a lifestyle question vs a TiVo technology Question.


mostly lifestyle question I would agree.
Not sure as to how OTA is where you live, but I have a TiVo HD with a *30$* OTA antenna hooked to it and get "dancing with the stars" in OTA HD. Wife likes the show but at least now the good looking women look better in HD to make it more bearable. (Bruno and the Host crack me up as well)

I subscribe to Netflix myself and likely would have no interest in paying for Hulu+ either, and definitely would not buy based on it is supposed to show up.

Otherwise I have TWC extended basic in analog to record all the other stuff and watch it all on my SD TV. I fully understand not sinking big bucks to move to all HD. Nor am I up for the hassle of cable cards and getting clamped down on what I can copy form TiVo to TiVo to watch.

also
I rip DVDs to my hard drive and then use pyTivo (TiVo desktop would work also) to copy those mpegs to any TiVo in the house to watch. It is not DLNA and multiple sources but it serves up my "netflix DVD queue" quite nicely for all in my house with no tech sweat.

just some things to think over, no one size fits all available for now, that is for sure.


----------



## paul_w_downing (Feb 22, 2002)

When I go HD I will have to string up an antenna on the roof. We are in a bad area to start with and our family room is in a sublevel (50% underground). I tried the "best" indoor antenna available last year, and I can only get 50% signal on 1 channel, and that is if I physically hold the antenna to the window. Like you I make due with SD over basic channels for the main networks. But I swear they (comcast) introduce static on purpose just to get people to subscribe to digital. It's been getting very bad lately, but since it is "free" I can't complain. I just keep repeating to myself "I am saving over $100 / month that is not going to the cable company". To be fair, technically they claim to have discontinued all analog service, so I'll take what I can get.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

smbaker said:


> Can we just finish the Premiere first, before moving to the next product?


+2 :up:

It's been over a year and the HD UI is still only half finished and still really slow.

Dan


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I would still put in more value to adding features over finishing the UI. I don't use the UI enough to notice it isn't finished. I would hate to see them hold back on features because a screen isn't in HD yet. 

Of course some of this would go hand in hand since adding features would require adding onscreen options to access. 

I think part of the problem is TiVo assuming they are focused on finishing the Premiere is that they seem to be pushing for one big update. It seems like they would be so much better off doing small and very frequent updates, something weekly to bi-weekly. At least then it would be obvious TiVo is trying to do something. As it is now, like everyone else I wonder what TiVo is doing. In the end if it does turn out to be a big patch hopefully it is big enough with enough meat to satisfy most.


----------



## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

innocentfreak said:


> I wonder what TiVo is doing.


Writing checks to lawyers
Reading TCF out loud in the office and laughing
Writing checks to lawyers
Pleading with larger companies to license Tivo's interface
Writing checks to lawyers
Playing Xbox 360 - I hear they're really looking forward to Hulu Plus on it
Writing checks to lawyers
Throwing darts at a poster of Charlie Ergen
Writing checks to lawyers
Building forts in the office out of unsold/returned 19.99 plan Premieres
Writing checks to lawyers
Twiddling with website design, carefully leaving certain functions broken, especially those involving Season Passes
Writing checks to lawyers
Executives trying to figure out a way to sneak stock pump & dump scheme by SEC, in collaboration with marketing department
Writing checks to lawyers
In the basement... in an old storage room... by the light of a dimly flickering bulb... one single, solitary hamster powers the wheel that runs the system that's dedicated to fixing/updating Tivo's software! 
That hamster then puts some of his food in a corner... for the lawyers!

Did I miss anything?


----------



## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

TheWGP said:


> Writing checks to lawyers
> <snip>
> Writing checks to lawyers
> In the basement... in an old storage room... by the light of a dimly flickering bulb... one single, solitary hamster powers the wheel that runs the system that's dedicated to fixing/updating Tivo's software!
> ...


Um, I don't think that TiVoJerry would like being called a hamster. Then again, I'm sure he feels like one sometimes!

You did miss the one thing TiVo -could- be doing, that scares me: Looking for an exit from the retail market.

If they do that, they can sever the contract they have with the call center they use for Customer Support. Big savings, and they might actually post a profit... ...until they run out of patents to sue the competition into submission over, and they "ain't so special anymore"... ...or they actually try innovating, over litigating, step on another company's patents that nobody even knows exist, only to wind up getting sued into submission themselves.

Hopefully, I will have received my money's worth out of all those lifetime subs I recently bought, before the end of TiVo. Yes, I am aware that while TiVo as we know it -could- cease to exist, the name still has enough marketability that somebody will buy the name to re-badge their products with. I wonder what the market value is for TiVo's patents, at the heart of their litigation machine, which -could- be sold separately from the TiVo name...

I wish I had enough prowess to build my own "mind.tivo.com" server and make my TiVos connect to it. Then I'd worry less about the life expectancy / fate of TiVo.

*Please note the use of phrases like "could", before you start ripping me a new one for allegedly predicting the future, which was not / is not my intent.


----------



## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

nooneuknow said:


> Um, I don't think that TiVoJerry would like being called a hamster. Then again, I'm sure he feels like one sometimes!
> 
> You did miss the one thing TiVo -could- be doing, that scares me: Looking for an exit from the retail market.


Certainly agree about TiVoJerry, nothing meant to diminish him or his coworkers at all! My post was meant to have a bit of fun with it. 

To be honest, that's my biggest fear too - that Tivo will just pull the plug on the retail boxes at some point. The only things that make me think that won't happen are:

a) the certitude of a lawsuit if they did that (I know what the terms & conditions say, I'm a lawyer, though not a corporate one, and believe me they wouldn't stop a suit from happening) - not going to discuss this, but I'm sure Tivo has considered it.

b) the, what is it, about 2.xx million subs they still have now, I think? That isn't a LOT, but it is a significant enough number that I think they'll think twice before discontinuing it in terms of negative PR and news coverage.

c) the fact that Tivo benefits from having their own boxes to "demo" things on for the larger partners they're trying to woo. I believe they've even said as much - the standalone boxes are no longer a focus for them, but they are still useful. That's not an exact quote, and I can't remember precisely where I read that, but the gist of it is direct from Tivo. Really, this is probably what keeps the Tivo standalone boxes alive more than anything else, in my opinion.

Anyway, maybe I'm just overthinking things, but I'm pretty confident Tivo will support the standalone boxes for quite awhile yet - I just paid for lifetime on my fourth box!


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

paul_w_downing said:


> I read recently that Netflix has more subscribers than Comcast. If anyone thinks that streaming is not the wave of the future they have their heads in the sand. These are the same people that said that cell phones will never replace land lines. I understand all the limitations of streaming, but it will get fixed because this is what the consumer is demanding. Not time shifting, but instant on demand of everything.


I agree that streaming online is where a lot of stuff is heading, but I don't agree that it is the way to go for all content. The biggest problem with streaming, to me, is that you can't skip commercials in some implementations (Hulu, network feeds, etc.) and I don't want to be force-fed that stuff.

Also for live events (sports, mainly), you might not have time to watch it live and want to record/watch it later. Although they could solve this by keeping events around for later streaming, I don't think they do this much now.

You're never going to see a full browser implementation on a Tivo, IMO, so there's always going to be lots of stuff that it can't get.


----------



## paul_w_downing (Feb 22, 2002)

It seems they need to remake themselves from a TimeShifting box to a content / entertainment agragation and distribution box / service. Which is the same thing that Sony, Microsoft and others have been trying to do for years (with deeper pockets). I think the state of technology finally can make this a reality.

I think it will come down to features, ease of use, and stability. I position that TimeShifting will become less and less important as On Demand from a varity of sources increases in content, quality, and reliability. 

I was watching a student the other day, he had on what I assume was ESPN3 and was watching a 4-up window on his laptop, watching 4 sports streams at the same time, with scrolling stats and additional content all live realtime.

This is where it is going folks. 

If Tivo can get that experience off of the laptop (on top of what they already do with timshifting and content searching) and back onto the TV, then they win.

If all they try to do as add basic no frills streaming to their timeshifting, then they die slowly as more content is put online. Most every TV / Blu Ray / Black Box, can do basic streaming. We expect more from our TiVo's than this.

Let's think BIG !

I would pay $1000 for a tricked out Tivo / 700 Watt, AV Receiver / Multi Media Streaming Monster Server, from TiVo no problem. I will pay 1/2 that when I upgrade my Yamaha AV receiver anyway. Imagine all that power / capability with a nice user friendly interface and remote with a slide out keyboard. 

My family does not use the receiver and surround sound because there are too many steps. Put the TV on Input 3. Turn on the Receiver. Put the Receiver on Tivo Input. Adjust the volume with the Receiver Remote, not the Tivo Remote, etc etc. To listen to my music library, I have to do more or less the same as above, but switch the input to my WDLive box, that can pull the content from my File Server.

A combo unit would have a tremendous Wife Acceptance Factor. (No, I don't want a $200 remote to make this easier, I like my easy TiVo Remote).

Oh, and I want a flying car too !


----------



## uw69 (Jan 25, 2001)

paul_w_downing said:


> It seems they need to remake themselves from a TimeShifting box to a content / entertainment agragation and distribution box / service. Which is the same thing that Sony, Microsoft and others have been trying to do for years (with deeper pockets). I think the state of technology finally can make this a reality.
> 
> I think it will come down to features, ease of use, and stability. I position that TimeShifting will become less and less important as On Demand from a varity of sources increases in content, quality, and reliability.
> 
> ...


Nice idea! I would like to see Tivo leverage their best in class DVR and add like a ROKU/Boxee functionality. Something greater than 3 tuners would make a killer do all box.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

paul_w_downing said:


> It seems they need to remake themselves from a TimeShifting box to a content / entertainment agragation and distribution box / service. Which is the same thing that Sony, Microsoft and others have been trying to do for years (with deeper pockets). I think the state of technology finally can make this a reality.
> 
> I think it will come down to features, ease of use, and stability. I position that TimeShifting will become less and less important as On Demand from a varity of sources increases in content, quality, and reliability.


the broadcast companies still have the bulk of the content and that is a hard fact to get around for smaller companies like Roku, Boxee or TiVo or even big ones like Microsoft.
That said your statements above have been stated in various ways here for a few years now. This will not be a fast transition without disruption. The broadcast giants are paying out a lot of money to keep disruption minimal



> I was watching a student the other day, he had on what I assume was ESPN3 and was watching a 4-up window on his laptop, watching 4 sports streams at the same time, with scrolling stats and additional content all live realtime.


 a niche there for sports nuts or news junkies, otherwise most are fine with one thing at a time on. Sports is also expensive to get online, Broadcast is still a value for getting sports, and is an oft cited reason for not cutting the cable cord.



> If Tivo can get that experience off of the laptop (on top of what they already do with timshifting and content searching) and back onto the TV, then they win.
> 
> If all they try to do as add basic no frills streaming to their timeshifting, then they die slowly as more content is put online. Most every TV / Blu Ray / Black Box, can do basic streaming. We expect more from our TiVo's than this.
> 
> ...


 Not enough folks would do that for a small company like TiVo to have as a product line, especially since most folks who would do that can go down that road of HTPC components and stay more flexible



> My family does not use the receiver and surround sound because there are too many steps. Put the TV on Input 3. Turn on the Receiver. Put the Receiver on Tivo Input. Adjust the volume with the Receiver Remote, not the Tivo Remote, etc etc. To listen to my music library, I have to do more or less the same as above, but switch the input to my WDLive box, that can pull the content from my File Server.
> 
> A combo unit would have a tremendous Wife Acceptance Factor. (No, I don't want a $200 remote to make this easier, I like my easy TiVo Remote).
> 
> Oh, and I want a flying car too !


TiVo inc.'s problem in a nutshell. You would think a nice big theater system is awesome, I would think a nice big theater system is awesome. Your family will not even deal with input selections and would hate a universal remote (which button do I push for TV?!)
My wife can listen to a stereo with only one speaker working and not even notice


----------



## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

paul_w_downing said:


> I tried the "best" indoor antenna available last year, and I can only get 50% signal on 1 channel, and that is if I physically hold the antenna to the window.


You are in Lake Orion. You should be less than 30 miles due north of the Detroit-area antenna farm in Southfield. You might need a $200-300 rooftop antenna setup with rotor if you want to receive the Flint, Lansing, and Toledo markets, but Detroit should be quite feasible with a moderate sized antenna in the attic or perhaps an indoor antenna with clear line of sight to the south.

Was this "best" indoor antenna some fancy powered antenna that looked cool and futuristic? Did you pay more than $13 bucks for the "best" antenna? If so, you probably bought an overpriced POS at the insistence of an uninformed salesclerk.

Your first starting point for terrestrial digital TV reception should be the Radio Shack Budget TV Antenna. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077 . This is a simple UHF loop and rabbit ears. Get a barrel splicer and a length of decent quality RG-6 coaxial cable. You aren't likely to get acceptable reception in the basement; you probably want to have the antenna in a south-facing window far away from electronic devices that might cause interference.

Higher is better than lower and outside is better than indoors, but you ought to be able to get acceptable reception at your distance from the broadcast towers. If you are in a heavily wooded part of Lake Orion you might need to use an outdoor antenna in the attic or on the roof. Fox is on real channel 7 and the CBC will convert to digital on Channel 9 later this year. You would need an outdoor antenna with high band VHF reception as well as good UHF reception. Something simple like the Winegard HD7694 ought to work. You might need a little bigger antenna to get the CBC out of Windsor reliably. You also could try the Antennacraft HBU22 or HBU33 from Rat Shack.

I'd still bet you a dozen donuts that you could get acceptable performance from that Radio Shack indoor antenna for $13. If not, they have an excellent return policy.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo inc.'s problem in a nutshell. You would think a nice big theater system is awesome, I would think a nice big theater system is awesome. Your family will not even deal with input selections and would hate a universal remote (which button do I push for TV?!)
> My wife can listen to a stereo with only one speaker working and not even notice


This is another area where TiVo could excel.

I have a harmony remote that I use. It works great one button everything on and set to the correct input/output. I know which buttons do what but if someone else had to use it they might not get past turning everything on.

Now if TiVo upgraded their slide remote to also provide more universal features like the harmony they might have something.

I honestly like the TiVo peanut remotes better than my harmony and did have them set to control the volume on my receiver so I really do think Tivo could build on this and end up with a better product than my harmony remote.

Thanks,


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

paul_w_downing said:


> I think it will come down to features, ease of use, and stability. I position that TimeShifting will become less and less important as On Demand from a varity of sources increases in content, quality, and reliability.


If On Demand includes unskippable commercials, no thanks. Otherwise I agree.


----------



## paul_w_downing (Feb 22, 2002)

Jimbo....

I don't recall the exact brand / Model it was 2-3 years ago. It was about $40, but #1 ranked on most HDTV "review" websites at the time for the price range. Again, the problem is that I'm in the basement so I have to go external regardless. Terra ? Tetra ? something or other, and I seem to recall that they had 3 models that looked alike, but the one with /a in the model name outperformed most of the others by a long shot. The /a stood for amplified, but even without power it worked better. When the time comes I'll do the research again and get the best I want to afford. Anything low to the ground is blocked by tree's house, etc. So I'll to get up to the chimney where I used to have my Sat dishes installed.


----------



## paul_w_downing (Feb 22, 2002)

biscuit,

The commercials don't bug me because presently I run everything through the AV IN on my S2. So I hit pause or record, grab a snack, and then skip the commercials. This is one reason I don't want to give up my S2 for a Premier. I also agree with you though, and I think it is crazy that Hulu Plus still has commercials. But on the other hand so does cable and Sat, and those cost money, so whatever....


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> If On Demand includes unskippable commercials, no thanks. Otherwise I agree.


Well with Hulu/Hulu+ you can skip them - just leave the room or change to another input device. 

However whatever is streaming Hulu/Hulu+ is going to have to play through the commercials


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

paul_w_downing said:


> ...I think it is crazy that Hulu Plus still has commercials. But on the other hand so does cable and Sat, and those cost money, so whatever....


Hulu Plus is $7.99 a month.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

paul_w_downing said:


> But on the other hand so does cable and Sat, and those cost money, so whatever....


...and you can skip anything you want to record on those systems. I get what you're saying, but don't agree that streaming everything is the holy grail.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

paul_w_downing said:


> I guess I'll sit on the sidelines a while more and see if new features are added to premier or better hardware comes from TiVo to support everything I want. Meanwhile I have a perfectly fine working installation, except in SD vs. HD.
> 
> I would like to see the following (if anyone from TiVo is listening).
> 
> ...


No. I'm talking with a friend who's building multi-tuner cablecard-compatible HTPCs for about $500, with no subscription costs. Factor in $299 lifetime service with a $299 Tivo and HTPCs are comparable, even cheaper than Tivos. So what you're asking for isn't wildly unreasonable.

My TivoHDs are a couple years old now, and I'd like to step up to something more sophisticated. When I tally the cost of buying two new Tivos, and monthly costs for both, used over three years, I can spend about $1300 on an HTPC and 2nd-room streaming box to break even. I might even get DVD / Blu-ray ripping and playback with that, a benefit my Tivo doesn't have.

The trade off is a custom system requiring significant investment to buy and build, versus the trivial retail experience of a Tivo. But I see Tivo losing its edge against HTPCs, especially now that I can build three or four-tuner HTPCs.

I'm starting to weigh my options for later this year or next.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

paul_w_downing said:


> I guess I'll sit on the sidelines a while more and see if new features are added to premier or better hardware comes from TiVo to support everything I want. Meanwhile I have a perfectly fine working installation, except in SD vs. HD.
> 
> I would like to see the following (if anyone from TiVo is listening).
> 
> ...


No. I'm talking with a friend who's building multi-tuner cablecard-compatible HTPCs for about $500, with no subscription costs. Factor in $299 lifetime service with a $299 Tivo and HTPCs are comparable, even cheaper than Tivos. So what you're asking for isn't wildly unreasonable.

My TivoHDs are a couple years old now, and I'd like to step up to something more sophisticated. When I tally the cost of buying two new Tivos, and monthly costs for both, used over three years, I can spend about $1300 on an HTPC and 2nd-room streaming box to break even. I might even get DVD / Blu-ray ripping and playback with that, a benefit my Tivo doesn't have.

The trade off is a custom system requiring significant investment to buy and build, versus the trivial retail experience of a Tivo. But I see Tivo losing its edge against HTPCs, especially now that I can build three or four-tuner HTPCs.

I'm starting to weigh my options for later this year or next.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ShoutingMan said:


> No. I'm talking with a friend who's building multi-tuner cablecard-compatible HTPCs for about $500, with no subscription costs. Factor in $299 lifetime service with a $299 Tivo and HTPCs are comparable, even cheaper than Tivos. So what you're asking for isn't wildly unreasonable.


I am going to just call Bull Sh** on this. Right now the only cable card tuner you can buy for a PC costs $399 and it requires Win 7 so just the operating system and cable card tuner will cost more than the $500 you quated. Yes it will have 4 tuners not 2 but by the time you get done you will have well over $1000 into it and could easliy have substantially more. Plus you had to build it.

If you look at a prebuilt HTPC that has OTA and cable card support you are talking $2-3000. That is the cost you would compare to the cost of 2 Tivos with lifetime that will range from low of $960 with upgrade offers to $1300 with no upgrade offers.

Thanks


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

atmuscarella said:


> Right now the only cable card tuner you can buy for a PC costs $399 and it requires Win 7 so just the operating system and cable card tuner will cost more than the $500 you quated. Yes it will have 4 tuners not 2 but by the time you get done you will have well over $1000 into it and could easliy have substantially more. Plus you had to build it.
> 
> If you look at a prebuilt HTPC that has OTA and cable card support you are talking $2-3000. That is the cost you would compare to the cost of 2 Tivos with lifetime that will range from low of $960 with upgrade offers to $1300 with no upgrade offers.
> 
> Thanks


I'm only working from info from a friend on what's possible. I may have misunderstand his pricing and features at the $500 level.

I got an example:
AMD Zacate boards (CPU+Board) ($120)
Nice M-itx case, say $70 (Nmedia)
2TB HDD: $69
4G RAM: $39
Bluray Reader: $49
Remote: $29
Win7 HP: $99

Totals:
$475 without a cable card tuner
$724 with a 3-tuner Cable-card compatible Silicon Dust h'ware
$874 with 4-tuner Ceton.
$1074 with Ceton & Xbox 360 to stream to a second location
No monthly subscription cost.

For a four-tuner system with Tivo (which I need) is currently:
$2 x $100 + ($20 + $10) / mo x 36 mo (my situation) = $1280.

Total cost for the cheapest four-tuner system with two-room usage, including Blu-ray capability, is $200 less than a two-Premiere system for three years. And in my case: this summer I'll have paid about $1200 for two TivoHDs for 3 yrs.

Maybe you build a more expensive HTPC. Maybe you get better deals on the Tivos or get some savings with lifetime (I don't buy it). Yes, you have to build a custom HTPC. Maybe the software is not quite as good (but I'm not reading good things about the Premiere's software.)

My wife and I love our pair of TivoHDs. But when I look at upgrading to a more sophisticated system in the next year, and I read reviews of the Tivo Premieres...cost and quality of Tivo now is enough to get to me seriously consider an HTPC as a cost effective alternative.


----------



## image1 (Sep 17, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> +2 :up:
> 
> It's been over a year and the HD UI is still only half finished and still really slow.
> 
> Dan


agreed, I would just like the existing services to function properly and consistently.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ShoutingMan said:


> I'm only working from info from a friend on what's possible. I may have misunderstand his pricing and features at the $500 level.
> 
> I got an example:
> AMD Zacate boards (CPU+Board) ($120)
> ...


I have no issues with HTPCs I built one a few months ago intended for streaming and video/music storage only (no tuners not being used for a DVR). The prices you quoted are too low for something that works well. I think you can do it for $1000 with the 4 tuner cable card tuner if you are very careful and spend a few weeks shopping deals. The silicon dust tuner isn't available yet but will lower the cost when it does become available.

If you have a TiVo now you (all everyone else who owns a TiVo) have upgrade offers that allow you to purchase a Premiere with lifetime for either $469 or $500. So yes you can buy 2 Premieres with lifetime for less then you can build an entry level HTPC that has cable card support.

There are many ++s to the HTPC and if you spend a little more on it say $1200-$1500 the ++s increase. It will however never be as easy to use as a TiVo and you did have to build it. I can assure you many things can go wrong while building a PC that can increase the cost significantly. I built 2 and rebuilt (upgrade parts) 2 more PCs over last winter. I ended up with one bad part that cost me days and money to figure out which part it was and is actually why I built 2 new PCs instead of 1.

For most people the only way to compare the cost of a TiVo to the cost of a HTPC is to look at the cost of buying a pre-built one that includes support and a warranty. At that point you have moved to the $2-3000 range to start.

Thanks,


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Exactly, good post. The cost of an HTPC w/extender setup is roughly the same as two Tivos w/lifetime, so you have to look at what you need with each setup - there are advantages and disadvantages to both.

I have both setups in my house and by far prefer the ease of use with Tivo, mostly because I don't care for the extenders on the HTPC setup (Xbox and Linksys DMA2100). Right now I'm only using the HTPC for recording overflow backup when I run out of Tivo tuners (which doesn't happen often).


----------



## snedecor (Jun 27, 2001)

I was basically forced from TiVo to HTPC, because:

1) I have satellite service (monopoly cable fiefdom in my town sucks).
2) I wanted HD (primarily OTA), and multiple tuners

My series 2 can't do HD, or have multiple tuners. The HD or Premiere won't work with satellite.

HTPC works for me, but it's not TiVo. It requires some fiddling, it's got some warts, but for now, it's the only game in town.

Now, with the Dish/TiVo settlement just announced, maybe it will result in a DishTiVo, or spur the DirecTiVo to finish their work. One can only hope...


----------



## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

paul_w_downing said:


> Let's think BIG !
> 
> I would pay $1000 for a tricked out Tivo / 700 Watt, AV Receiver / Multi Media Streaming Monster Server, from TiVo no problem. I will pay 1/2 that when I upgrade my Yamaha AV receiver anyway. Imagine all that power / capability with a nice user friendly interface and remote with a slide out keyboard.


Sorry, but I can no longer agree with you on this. I don't want Tivo, who now seems unable to finish the Premiere, to add any more widgets, gadgets, or geegaws to yet another fancy new piece of hardware.

Inventing the DVR was only the beginning. I never realized this slogan meant they can no longer FINISH ANYTHING.


----------



## wp746911 (Feb 19, 2005)

OP-
As mentioned earlier there are some rumors of tivo considering 4 tuner models/extenders but who knows...

It seems like you've mentioned in your posts that HD isn't that much better than SD (something to that effect)- I'm dumbfounded. Either you have never seen HD or your have vision problems.

Streaming is good for what it is, but IF you have a nice HD tv with speaker setup it's just not as good as blu-ray. Also I've found some network shows that my wife and I watch aren't available for streaming for a while. Sure streaming will eventually rule the world, but it's gonna be several several years before the streaming world is in the same ballpark as cable/satellite TV so you need a plan until that time.

A viable option (for my family) is to have some streaming (netflix maybe) and then some broadcast (either OTA for free- or if that is unreliable/undoable in your location, pay $13 or whatever to get basic basic cable which will get you the main networks). I don't have much experience with hulu plus so I'm not sure how that works into the mix. The tivo premiere, for all its shortcomings, is still a reliable HD dual tuner box.

HTPC crowd- certainly tempting for me and maybe if I was a batchelor I would get it, but the wife would kill me. And my 6 year old can run my tivo. HTPC are powerful and cool and great, and cost competitive, but I don't want to have to explain them to my family, daily.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

snedecor said:


> I was basically forced from TiVo to HTPC, because:
> 
> 1) I have satellite service (monopoly cable fiefdom in my town sucks).
> 2) I wanted HD (primarily OTA), and multiple tuners
> ...


No ability to record Dish/Direct HD in HD is a problem for TiVo. It can be partially solved with an HTPC at a fairly high cost. But honestly you might just as well take your Sat providers DVR.

The best hope for TiVo and anyone who pays for cable or Satellite is that the FCC replaces cable cards with something that actually works the way it should and includes the Satellite providers. There is hope but I am still betting the cable and Satellite providers pay off enough politicians and kill it.

Thanks,


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

paul_w_downing said:


> It seems they need to remake themselves from a TimeShifting box to a content / entertainment agragation and distribution box / service. Which is the same thing that Sony, Microsoft and others have been trying to do for years (with deeper pockets). I think the state of technology finally can make this a reality.
> 
> I think it will come down to features, ease of use, and stability. I position that TimeShifting will become less and less important as On Demand from a varity of sources increases in content, quality, and reliability.
> 
> ...


Or get a HArmony remote. One button press and my HDMI switch for my TiVos turns on and goes to the right input, my Tv turns on and goes to the right input, My Algolith HDMI Flea turns on and goes to the right input, my DVDO DUO turns on and selects the right input and my receiver turns on and goes to the right input.

All with a button press of an icon labeled, left TiVo, bottom right TiVo or top right TiVo.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

bmgoodman said:


> Sorry, but I can no longer agree with you on this. I don't want Tivo, who now seems unable to finish the Premiere, to add any more widgets, gadgets, or geegaws to yet another fancy new piece of hardware.
> 
> Inventing the DVR was only the beginning. I never realized this slogan meant they can no longer FINISH ANYTHING.


I am amused at all these type statements. So lets see because _you_ don't like the way the UI looks or works, so _you_ are going to decide it isn't "Finished" and TiVo needs to change it the way _you_ want them to.

Well everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions and certainly should provide TiVo with feed back on how they think the UI could be _improved_. However I personally hope TiVo is never _"Finished"_ with their UI.

The fact is TiVo's UI is not and likely will never be done until they abandon software updates for a particular platform. On going and continued updating of the UI either by fixing bugs, adding features, or improving functionality has always been and continues to be TiVos operating model.

Now if people want to be upset about the pace that TiVo is currently improving their UI, I would be right there with you.

Thanks,


----------



## shady (May 31, 2002)

paul_w_downing said:


> Let's think BIG !
> 
> I would pay $1000 for a tricked out Tivo / 700 Watt, AV Receiver / Multi Media Streaming Monster Server, from TiVo no problem. I will pay 1/2 that when I upgrade my Yamaha AV receiver anyway. Imagine all that power / capability with a nice user friendly interface and remote with a slide out keyboard.


Just because you think a $500 700 Watt AV Receiver is BIG, it doesn't mean everyone else thinks that.

Why should I have to downgrade my home theater to a cheap (in my opinion) receiver in order to get the latest,greatest TiVo experience?

Let Denon and Yamaha build the best mid-range receivers.
Let Samsung build the best TVs
Let TiVo build the best DVR and online content aggregator.

It's all about focus.


----------



## jmccorm (Oct 8, 2000)

The question was: Is anything next after Premier?


smbaker said:


> Can we just finish the Premiere first, before moving to the next product?


I would only have given a thumbs up to one of two replies:

The first one is what you said, "finish the Premier".
The second one would have been "bankruptcy".

Even though I shelled out a good chunk of change for the Premier, today, I wouldn't mind so much if TiVo suddenly vanished overnight.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jmccorm said:


> The question was: Is anything next after Premier?
> 
> I would only have given a thumbs up to one of two replies:
> 
> ...


Given that they just got $500 million from Dish I doubt they are going bankrupt any time soon.

I think we all know there is plenty of room to improve the Premiere's software without needing a hardware update. So in the whats next category I do not see why the hardware in the Premiere would need to be upgraded until cable cards are replaced. If they intend on building a whole house 4 tuner model I would assume it would be a premium model above the Premiere not a replacement model.

Regarding not caring if TiVo vanished - if your TiVo really works so poorly that you would rather trash it than continue to use - I would vote it is defective. If you are just grumpy because it doesn't work the way you think it should that is your business and you have plenty of company. My TiVos work just fine and I would prefer to continue getting software updates and guide data for many many many years.

Thanks,


----------



## paul_w_downing (Feb 22, 2002)

Everyone has some great points.

You've all given me much to think about before I drop $ on HDTV Upgrades. As much as I want an HDTV the drag along upgrade impact (TiVo's, AV Receivers, Subscriptions), seems unjustified. (For me anyway, your mileage may vary). If I do go HDTV in the fall unless something changes, it will most likely be without TiVo. I can live with Live OTA for 1080i (live sports), bluray for 1080p (occasional blockbuster movies), streaming (netflix / hulu / amazon) at 720p (every day sit-coms) and my S2's as backups at 480i. 

When the next great thing comes out that has the features I want, then I'll drop all my add-ons and move to one box. Hopefully it is a TiVo, but if not (HTPC, PS/4, whatever) then that's the marketplace.

As I mentioned before 1080i does not make shows stink any less than they already do from a content perspective. I agree 1080p looks amazing compared side by side to SDTV. But it is just TV after all.

Thanks again for all the quality help, without making me feel foolish for asking these questions.


----------



## jmccorm (Oct 8, 2000)

atmuscarella said:


> My TiVos work just fine.


If you are a TiVo Premier owner, I must say, congratulations. You are one of those amazingly lucky owners that do not have a problem with bugs. Was this just blind luck, or do you have some secrets to share?

If a starting point would help, I'd like to know how to make Netflix not lock up the entire unit. Or do I misunderstand the way those sort of things should work?


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

jmccorm said:


> If you are a TiVo Premier owner, I must say, congratulations. You are one of those amazingly lucky owners that do not have a problem with bugs. Was this just blind luck, or do you have some secrets to share?
> 
> If a starting point would help, I'd like to know how to make Netflix not lock up the entire unit. Or do I misunderstand the way those sort of things should work?


No problems with mine.

I have never had Netflix lock up my unit. I play shows and movies constantly from the episode guide and TiVo Search.


----------



## jmccorm (Oct 8, 2000)

innocentfreak said:


> No problems with mine.


Is my problem uncommon?


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

jmccorm said:


> Is my problem uncommon?


No idea. I don't know what your problem is. Most people who seem to have issues seem to be network related.


----------



## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

Here's hoping that the $300 million immediate boost lets Tivo at least do SOMETHING to help the Premier. I think they've GOT to know it needs work before replacing it... I could definitely see a 4-tuner "premium premiere" model though.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

jmccorm said:


> If you are a TiVo Premier owner, I must say, congratulations. You are one of those amazingly lucky owners that do not have a problem with bugs. Was this just blind luck, or do you have some secrets to share?
> 
> If a starting point would help, I'd like to know how to make Netflix not lock up the entire unit. Or do I misunderstand the way those sort of things should work?


No problems with mine, either. I'm hardwired through switches and MoCA adapters to my router and cable modem, so wireless interference isn't an issue for me. Is that the difference? Dunno. But like I said, no problems for me. Well, I take that back. On a *rare* occasion, it will down-res to SD, and I'll left-arrow to the menu and resume play to regain the HD stream. I can live with that.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jmccorm said:


> If you are a TiVo Premier owner, I must say, congratulations. You are one of those amazingly lucky owners that do not have a problem with bugs. Was this just blind luck, or do you have some secrets to share?
> 
> If a starting point would help, I'd like to know how to make Netflix not lock up the entire unit. Or do I misunderstand the way those sort of things should work?


I can not speak to Netflix as I do not use it. I also do not use the HDUI for several reasons but mostly because I want the same UI on all my TiVos. The HDUI mostly worked ok for me however the HDUI did have problems when my ISP was having problems so I will say that I believe the HDUI is too dependent on both a good Internet connection and a good connection to the TiVo servers, if you are having problems with either the HDUI becomes problematic. Some people seem to be having real problems with their Premieres so if you are you are not alone. But I honestly believe most of us are not. If you are still within the 90 warranty I would talk to TiVo and see if they will replace it under the warranty.

Good Luck,


----------



## jmccorm (Oct 8, 2000)

innocentfreak said:


> No idea. I don't know what your problem is. Most people who seem to have issues seem to be network related.


The problem, of course, is the TiVo rebooting while watching Netflix. I did some more reading. According to threads located all over this forum, it appears as though this is a case of bad error handling (programming). Instead of catching an exception condition (one that can be very reasonably anticipated), the entire box crashes.

It may be a bad network connection that spawns the event, but I expect my TiVo to act similar to something like PC, or really any other Netflix device. When I'm watching Netflix on my PC, if it runs into a hiccup on the network, my entire PC shouldn't spontaneously reboot. A network glitch may be the trigger, but the result should not be a reboot.

Yet, apparently, this is my fault for not providing a guaranteed end-to-end data path between my home and Netflix's datacenter?

In another note, this discussion seems to have gone down the path of most discussions that point out TiVo problems.

Person A: "TiVo has bugs"
Person B: "It works fine for me. Perhaps you are doing it wrong. Perhaps your expectations are wrong."
Person A: "Here is an example. [points out extremely well known and common issue]"
Person B and/or C: "That doesn't happen for me. Perhaps you are doing it wrong."

The plain and simple truth is that it is a bug: bad error handling. Some people have conditions, which are still within the range of being quite normal, which will tickle the bug more than others. For those that hit it, the level of annoyance is quite high.


----------



## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

atmuscarella said:


> I am amused at all these type statements. So lets see because _you_ don't like the way the UI looks or works, so _you_ are going to decide it isn't "Finished" and TiVo needs to change it the way _you_ want them to.


I'm glad I amuse you. I really never considered that the unfinished UI would be a matter of opinion. I believe it was stated before, by a Tivo rep, that the Premiere was being released with only a handful of HD screens completed and that in time this would be corrected, as more screens were converted to HD. Lately, I hear no such comments. So I suppose they ARE "done". Thank you for showing me the light, comrade.

You just keep preaching Tivo. They can clearly do no wrong in your eyes. But I see a company that is increasingly bureaucratic and decreasingly communicative with its "fans". I see a company that's very slow to respond, that's making error after error, from UI to pricing to product strategy. Who knows what they're working on?

I don't wish them ill. I still think they have the best product for cable TV and OTA. BUT, it's *not* TO ME so far ahead of its competition, compared to years past.

So I get to keep my opinion, much as you get keep yours. But I will conclude by stating that in years past, I "sold" a dozen or more Tivos to friends, family, and co-workers. Now I "sell" none. And I *highly* doubt I'm the only one. They're losing much of their unofficial sales channel, and that bodes ill. I only hope you can pick up the slack. You better get crackin'!


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

atmuscarella said:


> I am amused at all these type statements. So lets see because _you_ don't like the way the UI looks or works, so _you_ are going to decide it isn't "Finished" and TiVo needs to change it the way _you_ want them to.
> 
> Well everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions and certainly should provide TiVo with feed back on how they think the UI could be _improved_. However I personally hope TiVo is never _"Finished"_ with their UI.


On the Premieres, where many UI screens were never upgraded to HD I think "unfinished" isn't an unfair characterization. You click on some option and jump from the glossy new HD interface back to the old style SD one..

Now "finished" isn't the same thing and final and never to be changed. Obviously there's still room for improvements after ever screen has been upgraded to a consistent HD look, and hopefully TiVo will continue to make those improvements. But the SD screens that haven't been upgraded yet are an easy thing to point to, because AFAIK none of the software releases have reduced the number of SD style menu screens; leading to a believe the no progress is being made on the UI at all.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bmgoodman said:


> You just keep preaching Tivo. They can clearly do no wrong in your eyes. But I see a company that is increasingly bureaucratic and decreasingly communicative with its "fans". I see a company that's very slow to respond, that's making error after error, from UI to pricing to product strategy. Who knows what they're working on?


I see a company that is in a market that even Apple would not want to compete in. I see a company that has survived in this market while the very few other entrants come and go.

This reality does not negate any opinion expressed or held in the forum, the reality does however directly effect how TiVo can/will respond to such opinions.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Jonathan_S said:


> ... But the SD screens that haven't been upgraded yet ...


In this line lays our difference of opinions. Changing what are referred to in these forums as SD screens to something that looks like what is referred to in these forums as HD screens is NOT an upgrade in my opinion. I do not find uselessly flashy screens to be an upgrade in any way to fully functioning text based menus. When it comes to any UI I evaluate it based on how easy it is for me to get done what I want to get done. Of course my individual opinion or pretty much anyones individual opinion is irrelevant to what TiVo should do.

Thanks,


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

jmccorm said:


> In another note, this discussion seems to have gone down the path of most discussions that point out TiVo problems.
> 
> Person A: "TiVo has bugs"
> Person B: "It works fine for me. Perhaps you are doing it wrong. Perhaps your expectations are wrong."
> ...


You mean like every other product out there?

My friend loves his Nissan yet mine was the biggest piece of junk I ever owned and will never touch one again. Who is correct?

I also never assigned blame. I merely pointed out the majority of issues seem to stem from network related issues.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I've watched various shows where they had to switch back and forth between the HD feed and the SD feed and I found it annoying. It takes time for my eyes to adjust to a resolution change. I would think the HDUI is having the same effect on people, with some of the screens still being SD.


----------



## jmccorm (Oct 8, 2000)

innocentfreak said:


> I also never assigned blame. I merely pointed out the majority of issues seem to stem from network related issues.


Network issues are likely the trigger. And not an unexpected one. The real problem stems from poor error handling inside of the TiVo. First, that it doesn't handle a condition that is reasonably expected to happen, and second that the severity of the mishandling is a full system reboot.

I can forgive TiVo for those two items. Programming mistakes happen. What I have trouble forgiving TiVo for is letting those problems (and many others) go unresolved for so long.

If TiVo can't handle glaring bugs in their latest product, I really don't see there being much point in anything after the Premier.


----------



## hoagie (Oct 22, 2004)

I've used PlayOn for a couple years before I got my Samsung 55C7000 and you know what I found out when I tried it with the new HD tv set?? Play on is totally worthless for transcribing content to High Definition. I haven't used it since. I'd much rather download a high definition video file from Bittorrent then try through hulu.. I'm going to predict that you're going to have the same issue when you try PlayOn on whatever HD set you get, Paul..


----------



## paul_w_downing (Feb 22, 2002)

hoagie,

Thanks, I'm sure your right  

I'm currently watch some streaming, on a 24 inch 1080p stand alone monitor that has HDMI input via my Blu Ray player. I would rank them as follows.

Blu Ray - 9/10 - (well it is a small $150 pc monitor after all not a real TV)
NETFLIX via Blu Ray - 7/10
Amazon (via Playon) - 7/10
Hulu (via Playon) - 6/10
Netflix (via Playon) - 6/10
SD "streaming" via slingbox - 4/10

I'm sure when I get my 60 inch monster TV (or 42 inch if my wife wins). The need for true HD will be obvious. I just hope that by that time, there are more choice in the market place. I just don't see dropping $600 on Premier + Lifetime at this time with all the issues and limitations (from my pov). Maybe if they come out with a new SW release and boards light up with praise, I will change my mind. My S2's are rock solid, they just work 100% of the time. I don't want to worry about sudden reboots and 1/2 finished interfaces.

Playon is definately a gap product for me. I bought it when you could purchase "BASIC" for life for $19.00. Basicially it is a lifeline to keep my SD TV viable and allow me to cut the cord a while longer.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

paul_w_downing said:


> boards light up with praise,


TiVo could get credit for the second coming and complaint threads will be started.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo could get credit for the second coming and complaint threads will be started.


Pretty much this.

Even if TiVo came up with the ultimate dream box for free, people would still complain on here. This would be especially true if they came out with a second version for free that had new features that didn't work on the first free box.


----------



## larrs (May 2, 2005)

davezatz said:


> I have no problems streaming or downloading HD content from the likes of Vudu, Xbox, Amazon, or Netflix. Looks good. Not Blu-ray good, but good.


+1. especially Vudu (Vudu box, BD players, many TVs). HDX titles in 1080/24 look very good. Better, in fact, than any HD content on cable and about what you see on OTA when not degraded by offering 5 feeds (PBS).

Xbox looks excellent as well (but needs an Xbox) in 1080 and so does Amazon when you find a 1080 source (some are still 720). And, Amazon 1080/24 is available on the Premiere.

I use a 100" screen with a 1080 projector and they are all acceptable, not Blu Ray, but certainly acceptable.

I'd rate it something like this in my home (Proprietary Neighborhood CableCo- All Fiber Optic):

Blu Ray Disc 9/10
OTA 1080i 9/10
Vudu HDX 8/10
HD Cable 1080 7/10
Amazon HD1080 7/10
Xbox 1080 7/10
Amazon HD720 6/10
Netflix HD720 5/10
DVD 5-6/10
Amazon/NF SD 4/10
SD Digital Cable 3/10
Analog Cable 2/10
YouTube 360 1/10


----------

