# Is anyone ACTUALLY recording in-the-clear QAM Channels with the S3?



## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Thanks to the helpful advice of fellow members, I determined through this thread that I have more than 30 in-the-clear standard definition QAM channels available for manual recordings along with the 70ish analogue channels.

Is anyone having success at manual recordings of QAM channels with the S3?

Hows it going? Any anecdotes you'd wish to share?

Will several episodes of a repeating manual recording save in a common folder?

Can/does the TiVo access the PSIP information to label the show in "Now Playing"?

When I first moved back to Canada a few years ago I used my S1 in manual mode for years before "alternative" methods became available. So, recording manual channels is something I'm used to doing. I think that until OTA-HD guide data becomes available through Tribune to TiVo, I may very well use the S3 with only analogue and manual QAM channel recording capaibility.

That is assuming others are having success doing this?

...Dale


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

"I think that until OTA-HD guide data becomes available through Tribune to TiVo, I may very well use the S3 with only analogue and manual QAM channel recording capaibility."

Not to derail the thread, but I'd be pissed if I was you and paid a subscription to TiVo for providing guide data, and they didn't do it...

I hope the Series 3 will be able to handle QAM mapping soon... but I doubt it...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

If you don't mind paying $800 plus $7-$13 per month for basically VCR functionality then go for it. Although I think if I were you I'd probably just hold out until TiVo at least gets OTA data for your area. 

Dan


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Hey Dan, I still have my one-time grandfathered lifetime transfer right. So I won't have to pay monthly fees. Indeed, as per this thread , that is one of the SEVERAL reasons I'm skipping a dual-tuner S2 and jumping straight to the S3 - I refuse to pay monthly fees, I need a new TiVo to replace a glitchy Series 1, and I am willing to go through the early adopter agony (and price tag) so long as I'm getting SOMETHING of valye out of the box - until cablecards or OTA-HD works here (or I return stateside).

...Dale


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## rickertk (Jan 23, 2002)

My Cablecards are supposed to be installed on Saturday, so I've been using manual recordings of the clear QAM channels. I had already mapped the local broadcast networks HD (and SD subchannels) since my LG LCD TV has a QAM tuner, so it was just a matter of confirming the channel numbers and setting up repeating recordings. So far, that works as well as you might expect. The only quirk is that it sometimes wants to set up the same recording on both tuners (especially if you add padding to a single instance or do other changes to the recording options).The duplicate copies can be deleted from the To-Do list with no problems. I don't have any recordings of the same timeslot twice now, but I don't think it groups them. I have no PSIP data over QAM, so there's no interpretation of that.

Keith


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

rickertk said:


> My Cablecards are supposed to be installed on Saturday, so I've been using manual recordings of the clear QAM channels. I had already mapped the local broadcast networks HD (and SD subchannels) since my LG LCD TV has a QAM tuner, so it was just a matter of confirming the channel numbers and setting up repeating recordings. So far, that works as well as you might expect. The only quirk is that it sometimes wants to set up the same recording on both tuners (especially if you add padding to a single instance or do other changes to the recording options).The duplicate copies can be deleted from the To-Do list with no problems. I don't have any recordings of the same timeslot twice now, but I don't think it groups them. I have no PSIP data over QAM, so there's no interpretation of that.
> 
> Keith


Thanks Keith, when you say you "already mapped the local broadcast networks" what do you mean. I thought we couldn't do any manual mapping of in-the-clear QAM signals? Also, how do these channels show up? For instance if I want to set up a recording of a QAM channel from 8:00 to 9:00 each Tuesday (House) are the "channels" given a number of some kind? How did you know what the number was?

As I understand it when you say you have a cable line up the S3 will somehow scan for in-the-clear digital stations, but I'm not sure how it reports those stations back to you? Can you give a few examples.

Many thanks.

...Dale


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## John949 (Sep 16, 2006)

Dajad said:


> Is anyone having success at manual recordings of QAM channels with the S3?
> 
> Hows it going? Any anecdotes you'd wish to share?


I have basic analog cable but I am recording several HDTV shows off the major networks each week. The recordings are working great. Of course there is no guide info to go with the channels. My Now Playing list just has a bunch of dates/times/channels. No titles are listed for these recordings. I am happy with the hardware but not so happy with the Tivo software/service.


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## rickertk (Jan 23, 2002)

Dajad said:


> Thanks Keith, when you say you "already mapped the local broadcast networks" what do you mean. I thought we couldn't do any manual mapping of in-the-clear QAM signals? Also, how do these channels show up? For instance if I want to set up a recording of a QAM channel from 8:00 to 9:00 each Tuesday (House) are the "channels" given a number of some kind? How did you know what the number was?
> 
> As I understand it when you say you have a cable line up the S3 will somehow scan for in-the-clear digital stations, but I'm not sure how it reports those stations back to you? Can you give a few examples.
> 
> ...


What I mean by already mapping is that I and my wife had sat down with the LG TV and it's QAM tuner and figured out which channel number was which HD station (110-1 = our local CW station, 119-1 = PBS HD, 119-3 = PBS SD, 119-2 = CBS HD, etc.) The S3 and my LG TV are using the same channel numbers for the frequencies, so I just set up a manual recording for 110-1 Tuesday nights 8-9 to get Gilmore Girls. I can provide more details, but I'm not entirely sure what more you might want.

Keith


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

John949 said:


> I have basic analog cable but I am recording several HDTV shows off the major networks each week. The recordings are working great. Of course there is no guide info to go with the channels. My Now Playing list just has a bunch of dates/times/channels. No titles are listed for these recordings. I am happy with the hardware but not so happy with the Tivo software/service.


John, do you have any repeating recordings, eg: every Tuesday on Chanel X from 8:00 till 9:00. If so, do they put these identical shows into their own folder ... that would be ideal so, for instance, if I recorded an weeks worth of Charlie Rose through a manual recording they'd all show up in one folder. Makes sense to me.

...Dale


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

rickertk said:


> What I mean by already mapping is that I and my wife had sat down with the LG TV and it's QAM tuner and figured out which channel number was which HD station (110-1 = our local CW station, 119-1 = PBS HD, 119-3 = PBS SD, 119-2 = CBS HD, etc.) The S3 and my LG TV are using the same channel numbers for the frequencies, so I just set up a manual recording for 110-1 Tuesday nights 8-9 to get Gilmore Girls. I can provide more details, but I'm not entirely sure what more you might want.
> 
> Keith


THanks Keith, that's exactly what I wanted to know ... except, does the weekly Gilmore Girls so recorded get put into a folder with prior-weeks recordings or do repeating manual recordings just get tossed into the one long Now Playing menu without any foldering for repeat shows?

...Dale


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## rickertk (Jan 23, 2002)

As I said in my earlier post, I don't have two copies of any particular repeating recordings on hand - I've had the S3 for just over a week, and have already watched the first few manual recordings on it. So I don't know if there's any grouping of manual recordings with no guide data. I'm supposed to get my Cablecards installed on Saturday; if that doesn't work or the installer doesn't show, then I might be able to answer the question.

Keith


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## greenstork (Apr 5, 2006)

Why is there no guide data for these QAM channels? I don't really understand what QAM is really but if I had to guess, I'd say that it's just cable over the cable line, before it hits a STB or CableCARD. It includes some digital, some analong, mostly SD, but HD locals are required by the FCC over QAM. Do I have it about right?

Aren't we paying for guide service from TiVo? I mean, what the heck are all of the monthly fees if we can't get a channel guide for certain tuners.

There should be a channel guide for OTA, correct? 

My Tivo arrives today so please forgive the noob questions.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

"Do I have it about right?"

Not exactly, on my ditigal cable tier, there are some 30+ in-the-clear QAM signals available. Some correspond to OTA analogue stations. Most do not. Every cable company seemingly chooses based on some unknown criteria which are there and which aren't. But more fundamentally, the cable company chooses where in the cable spectrum to carry the channel. TiVo has no ability to know where in that spectrum that channel will be carried. And it can change at the whim of the cable-co. 

So, yes, TiVo will know, based on the zip code you provide, what local stations should be on the cable, but they won't know WHERE on the spectrum they are nor will they know which are in-the-clear and which are not.

...Dale


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## woodie (Feb 7, 2005)

I had success recording movies from StarsHD, while there was a promo, and they were in-th-clear.
I am thinking about pulling my cards this weekend to record Battlestar Ggallactica in HD from UHD, 
which in not mapped by the cablecard. UHD is no longer available when the card are installed.


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## greenstork (Apr 5, 2006)

Dajad said:


> "Do I have it about right?"
> 
> Not exactly, on my ditigal cable tier, there are some 30+ in-the-clear QAM signals available. Some correspond to OTA analogue stations. Most do not. Every cable company seemingly chooses based on some unknown criteria which are there and which aren't. But more fundamentally, the cable company chooses where in the cable spectrum to carry the channel. TiVo has no ability to know where in that spectrum that channel will be carried. And it can change at the whim of the cable-co.
> 
> ...


So is it safe to say that QAM is a neglected stepchild of cable co.'s, only in existence because of some FCC mandate? It doesn't sound like there's a lot of effort to make this tuner stream usable.


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## rickertk (Jan 23, 2002)

QAM is how all digital cable channels on your cable stream are carried (some encrypted, some not). However, the cable company digital cable boxes have a table that translates the user-entered channel number (which is what they make available to the public) into the direct QAM frequency. Say, on my system Channel 240 becomes 119-1. Chanel 435 becomes 79-17 (or something like that). With a Series3 Tivo, the CableCard can also do that, and so you can get interpretable guide data for the digital channels. Without a Cablecard, you can tune any unencrypted channels, but there's no good mechanism for figuring out which digital frequency corresponds to which published channel number.

Keith


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## greenstork (Apr 5, 2006)

rickertk said:


> QAM is how all digital cable channels on your cable stream are carried (some encrypted, some not). However, the cable company digital cable boxes have a table that translates the user-entered channel number (which is what they make available to the public) into the direct QAM frequency. Say, on my system Channel 240 becomes 119-1. Chanel 435 becomes 79-17 (or something like that). With a Series3 Tivo, the CableCard can also do that, and so you can get interpretable guide data for the digital channels. Without a Cablecard, you can tune any unencrypted channels, but there's no good mechanism for figuring out which digital frequency corresponds to which published channel number.
> 
> Keith


I think I'm getting it now. It's more like a raw tuner stream, with some encrypted content and some "in-the-clear" channels. To really interpret which frequency belongs to which channel, and decode it in some cases, you need some cable company device like a STB or a CC.

The way cable companies manages the frequencies in this raw stream is entirely up to them, as long as their STBs and CCs can figure it out.

So why can't you map a QAM channel on the TiVo, like tell it that this QAM frequency is NBC and let it acquire use what it knows to be the NBC Comcast guide data for my geographic area?

Seeing as how I'm actually going to acquire two CableCARDs, I guess I shouldn't be all that concerned, but I'm just curious, and thanks to those who have responded already.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

woodie said:


> I had success recording movies from StarsHD, while there was a promo, and they were in-th-clear.
> I am thinking about pulling my cards this weekend to record Battlestar Ggallactica in HD from UHD,
> which in not mapped by the cablecard. UHD is no longer available when the card are installed.


Why would you have to pull the cards? Can't you just set a manually recording for the QAM channel that is UHD? Why is this different whether the cards are installed or not?

Edit: just saw your thread about loosing some QAM with CC installed. strange
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4424404&&#post4424404

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4427652


jfh3 said:


> You can't tune QAM directly if you use cable cards.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

greenstork said:


> So why can't you map a QAM channel on the TiVo, like tell it that this QAM frequency is NBC and let it acquire use what it knows to be the NBC Comcast guide data for my geographic area?


Software currently doesn't have that feature is all. Hopefully that will change.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

greenstork said:


> So why can't you map a QAM channel on the TiVo, like tell it that this QAM frequency is NBC and let it acquire use what it knows to be the NBC Comcast guide data for my geographic area?


Adding this feature is not that complicated. Since you tell it which cable system you use during setup, it already knows what channels you can get (just with QAM some will be encrypted). So the guide data will be there. Just in the case of in the clear qam, you will get less channels than using a cable card but the channels you do get will already have the guide data. The only issue is if TiVo is going to add this feature or whether they never will. It should be an easy question to answer, but in the great TiVo tradition, we will probably never get a straight answer for a long time.


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## greenstork (Apr 5, 2006)

rainwater said:


> Adding this feature is not that complicated. Since you tell it which cable system you use during setup, it already knows what channels you can get (just with QAM some will be encrypted). So the guide data will be there. Just in the case of in the clear qam, you will get less channels than using a cable card but the channels you do get will already have the guide data. The only issue is if TiVo is going to add this feature or whether they never will. It should be an easy question to answer, but in the great TiVo tradition, we will probably never get a straight answer for a long time.


Well, the Cable Co.'s probably don't want TiVo mapping QAM frequencies to channels, they'd prefer everyone rented a STB or at the very least, a CableCARD. It seems like TiVo would do well to placate them on minor issues such as this if it meant the addition of MRV and/or T2G. It could be about picking their battles I suppose.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

greenstork said:


> Well, the Cable Co.'s probably don't want TiVo mapping QAM frequencies to channels, they'd prefer everyone rented a STB or at the very least, a CableCARD. It seems like TiVo would do well to placate them on minor issues such as this if it meant the addition of MRV and/or T2G. It could be about picking their battles I suppose.


I don't think the CableLabs can legally deny this request, so it should be a non-issue. Sony had no problems adding this feature so why should TiVo? I'm not buying the excuses for everything being CableLabs' fault.


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## John949 (Sep 16, 2006)

Dajad said:


> John, do you have any repeating recordings, eg: every Tuesday on Chanel X from 8:00 till 9:00. If so, do they put these identical shows into their own folder ... that would be ideal so, for instance, if I recorded an weeks worth of Charlie Rose through a manual recording they'd all show up in one folder.


I have watched and deleted my recordings so I actually don't know yet. Guess I could try setting a daily recording and we will know in a couple of days. It would be nice if a folder is created for these.


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## kbs (May 15, 2004)

rickertk said:


> What I mean by already mapping is that I and my wife had sat down with the LG TV and it's QAM tuner and figured out which channel number was which HD station (110-1 = our local CW station, 119-1 = PBS HD, 119-3 = PBS SD, 119-2 = CBS HD, etc.) The S3 and my LG TV are using the same channel numbers for the frequencies, so I just set up a manual recording for 110-1 Tuesday nights 8-9 to get Gilmore Girls. I can provide more details, but I'm not entirely sure what more you might want.
> 
> Keith


Hey Keith,
Does your LG's QAM tuner know which channels are which? In other words, does it respond as if its getting PSIP or other data to tell it that 110-1 is your CW station, or did you just surf around and figure it out on your own?

I've posted on this other thread that it seems like according to the FCC, any 'digital cable ready' device should be able to interpret PSIP and allow you to navigate channels based on that info. The main question was whether any of our cable providers actually are sending that info...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4426688&&#post4426688

-kbs


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## John949 (Sep 16, 2006)

kbs said:


> Does your LG's QAM tuner know which channels are which? In other words, does it respond as if its getting PSIP or other data to tell it that 110-1 is your CW station, or did you just surf around and figure it out on your own?


The question was directed towards Keith but I can respond. I have a Vizio LCD HDTV. It can tune clear QAM digital channels. For some of the channels the TV can show program information as well as the local name ie: KABC-HD. It is only the major networks that have this information; CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox. For other clear QAM channels I had to surf around to find out what they were.


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## kbs (May 15, 2004)

John949 said:


> The question was directed towards Keith but I can respond. I have a Vizio LCD HDTV. It can tune clear QAM digital channels. For some of the channels the TV can show program information as well as the local name ie: KABC-HD. It is only the major networks that have this information; CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox. For other clear QAM channels I had to surf around to find out what they were.


Thanks John949!

Just to verify... This is with no cableCard in your VizioTV, right? So the Vizio is responding to some channel info being sent by PSIP or out-of-band signal.

If you connect your Series3 to the same cable feed with no cableCard installed,
does it also know which QAM channel is KABC-HD, or CBS, etc?

If not, I would say that the Tivo is not compliant with the FCC ruling, and shouldn't be marketing itself as being cable-ready. (see this post)

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4427399&&#post4427399

-kbs


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## rickertk (Jan 23, 2002)

Comcast doesn't seem to put out any PSIP data on the cable where I am - neither the LG nor the Series 3 gets anything. I just had to surf around and figure it out. The ever present channel bugs did make that easier for a lot of channels.
Keith


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## kbs (May 15, 2004)

rickertk said:


> Comcast doesn't seem to put out any PSIP data on the cable where I am - neither the LG nor the Series 3 gets anything.
> Keith


That does seem strange. The broadcasters have had to include PSIP since February, 2005. Obviously, John949's cable company is sending some of those signals along. I think it is unlikely that none of your local channels are providing PSIP to Comcast, and more likely that Comcast is refusing to forward that information (in violation of FCC mandate. ) http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4426688&&#post4426688

Some more interesting info on PSIP:
http://www.atsc.org/faq/faq_psip.html
http://psip.org/
http://www.nab.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Search&template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=5508

-kbs


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

I'm sceptical there really is an FCC mandate for PSIP. My local Comcast certainly doesn't provide it. Doubtlessly Comcast has many highly paid lawyers on staff that keep them from needing to bother with things like this. Either that or they're so incompetent that they haven't gotten around to it some 19 months after they had to!

Just to confirm that I'm ranting about apples vs apples, I have an LG standalone tuner, LST-4200A. It displays program guide, time, channel mapping etc for OTA HD. But nothing for any of the clear QAM from Comcast. The same program guide etc should also be in the QAM stream?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I'm sceptical there really is an FCC mandate for PSIP. My local Comcast certainly doesn't provide it. Doubtlessly Comcast has many highly paid lawyers on staff that keep them from needing to bother with things like this. Either that or they're so incompetent that they haven't gotten around to it some 19 months after they had to!
> 
> Just to confirm that I'm ranting about apples vs apples, I have an LG standalone tuner, LST-4200A. It displays program guide, time, channel mapping etc for OTA HD. But nothing for any of the clear QAM from Comcast. The same program guide etc should also be in the QAM stream?


 I have a PC tuner card that can capture OTA & unencrypted QAM. I can then check for PSIP information using TSReaderLite. I can confirm there are some channels where the PSIP information is dropped via the cable company re-transmission (the OTA one of course has the information). Then again there are a couple of channels where PSIP information is passed through. So it's not consistent at least for my headend (Cox, Orange County, CA). And as has been reported others don't see any PSIP info either so each headend looks to be different and don't seem to be complying with any particular mandates.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Manual mapping does not make any practical sense because the cable company can change it at anytime. Comcast just did it recently in the San Francisco Bay Area.


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## John949 (Sep 16, 2006)

kbs said:


> Just to verify... This is with no cableCard in your VizioTV, right? So the Vizio is responding to some channel info being sent by PSIP or out-of-band signal.
> 
> If you connect your Series3 to the same cable feed with no cableCard installed,
> does it also know which QAM channel is KABC-HD, or CBS, etc?


You are correct, I only have extended basic analog cable service. No cable cards or set top box. The Vizio is picking up this info from the cable signal. The Tivo does not display the program listings but does put the networks on 2.1, 4.1, 7.1, 11.1, and if I recall it does list the channel names like KABC-HD, but not for Fox. I will have to check when I get home to be sure.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

c3 said:


> Manual mapping does not make any practical sense because the cable company can change it at anytime. Comcast just did it recently in the San Francisco Bay Area.


So remap it. Most cable companies rarely change their QAM channel numbers. Why would you not have a feature because of a few cable companies?


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## cogx (Sep 23, 2006)

rainwater said:


> So remap it. Most cable companies rarely change their QAM channel numbers. Why would you not have a feature because of a few cable companies?


Exactly. I'm also getting tired of this "the QAM channels change frequencies all the time" MYTH. Yes, it _can_ happen anytime the cable company needs to do it, for adding/changing stations, but they are **NOT**going to be doing it on a daily, weekly, or doubtfully monthly basis. Find me one cable engineer who goes in every day and changes channel frequencies.


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## kbs (May 15, 2004)

John949 said:


> You are correct, I only have extended basic analog cable service. No cable cards or set top box. The Vizio is picking up this info from the cable signal. The Tivo does not display the program listings but does put the networks on 2.1, 4.1, 7.1, 11.1, and if I recall it does list the channel names like KABC-HD, but not for Fox. I will have to check when I get home to be sure.


Thats very interesting news. Yes, please verify that for us. My QAM channels are completely unlabelled on my S3, except for their existence from a scan and an asterisk showing they were found and unknown. If your QAM channels are showing up with channel names on your S3 in the same way they do on your Vizio, then it seems that the S3 is compliant with receiving PSIP data. Thats important information.

-kbs


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

rainwater said:


> So remap it. Most cable companies rarely change their QAM channel numbers. Why would you not have a feature because of a few cable companies?


I don't know how often it happens (no digital tuners yet), but it does happen. I would not want to set up a season pass and miss programs because the cable company moved the channels.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

c3 said:


> I don't know how often it happens (no digital tuners yet), but it does happen. I would not want to set up a season pass and miss programs because the cable company moved the channels.


So then you just wouldn't map it. Me on the other hand, I wouldn't worry about it. My clear QAM channels have been the same for over a year now. So, its not an issue for me.


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## kbs (May 15, 2004)

c3 said:


> I don't know how often it happens (no digital tuners yet), but it does happen. I would not want to set up a season pass and miss programs because the cable company moved the channels.


If John949 is right, and the Tivo is listening to PSIP data, then it should be technically able to follow the QAM channels if they move. So since we're basically asking for a new feature, I propose it work like this:

1)Search for and find QAM channels, look for PSIP data.
2)If you enter the 'Channel Remapping' screen, for a particular OTA channel the Tivo can suggest the appropriate QAM channel based on finding one with the matching callsign over QAM PSIP. If no matching QAM PSIP exists, let you enter one manually.
3)If during regular use, the QAM PSIP for a remapped channel changes, find the new channel for that callsign and remap to the new QAM channel automatically.
4) If a PSIP channel is moved and can't be found, or a non-PSIP manually remapped channel disappears, create a splash-screen alert to inform the user the next time they access the tivo. Also possibly send the user an email.

-kbs


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## Skeuomorph (Sep 26, 2006)

My plasma, my PC HDTV card, and the TiVo, can all tune recieve these HD digital channels. For Cablevision, they're in the 700's. I haven't seen them move around.

The HD versions of the major networks are all available, in the clear, on the lifeline cable service at $15/month.

However, without the CableCards installed, my TiVo refuses to acknowledge these channels or associate them with any guide info, except if forced to them by typing in a channel number.

Even with the cable card, it really aggravates me that TiVo seems to prefer lower numbered channels for a show, wanting to record on channel 3 (CBS) instead of 702 (CBS HD). 

Also, btw, really lame that we can't "filter" the guide by the "HD" tag, not even in Tivo Central Online.


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## kbs (May 15, 2004)

Skeuomorph said:


> My plasma, my PC HDTV card, and the TiVo, can all tune recieve these HD digital channels. For Cablevision, they're in the 700's. I haven't seen them move around. However, without the CableCards installed, my TiVo refuses to acknowledge these channels or associate them with any guide info, except if forced to them by typing in a channel number.


So your plasma has a tuner, and can tune channel 702 without a cablecard, and knows that its ABC-HD (or whatever)? 
In other words, it is receiving channel information directly from the cable (over PSIP or whatever)?

...and your S3 with no cable cards doesn't see that 702 is ABC-HD? That would imply that the S3 doesn't support PSIP. 
We're still looking for confirmation on this one way or the other. 
-kbs


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## crabbon (Jan 9, 2003)

Need a way to Record "HD ONLY" as an option.

Also, I'm with you guys on this. I want to be able to record QAM without a cablecard. Yes, I'm one of the few that would like to subscribe to basic cable, and get my networks (cbs, nbc, fox) over HD on the rebroadcasted QAM. And yes, I'd pay $1000 to get it, and I'd prefer not having to use a cable card when it's already on the line.

I'd rather not have to build a MythTV if TiVo could do it, but currently it can't.

If this gets fixed and they enable TTG and such, I'd be super happy. I can understand why TTG is disabled, but not being able to remap a channel is something TiVo could allow.

San Luis Obispo, CA - Charter


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Skeuomorph said:


> My plasma, my PC HDTV card, and the TiVo, can all tune recieve these HD digital channels. For Cablevision, they're in the 700's. I haven't seen them move around.
> 
> The HD versions of the major networks are all available, in the clear, on the lifeline cable service at $15/month.
> 
> ...


if tivo doesn't acknoledge them unless you type the numbers directly then i think they are either:
a- not selected in channels you recieve
or
b- not int he linup that tivo is sending for your cable company- email [email protected] to get them to correct that.

Tivo's always seem to prefer certain channels over others- i used to think that it was strictly channel number but with my last HD Directivo it didn't always match the viewable channel number (but might have been some virtual channel number or somethign like QAM uses).

Lack of HD tag in the wishlist totally blows.


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## kbs (May 15, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> b- not int he linup that tivo is sending for your cable company- email [email protected] to get them to correct that.


Good point. I know some people have called and been told that digital rebroadcasts are not supported, or somesuch nonsense. Instead, I think anyone who wants their non-cablecard QAM should email [email protected] and say "I've got this channel I'm receiving over cable and have no guide data. Could you please fix my lineup? Thank you."

Just because the cable company doesn't disclose it as part of their lineup is no excuse. They're required to rebroadcast it in the clear, according to the FCC, and the Tivo should support it.
-kbs


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

oopps - i think i misunderstood- I thought the OP was talking about not working with the cabelcards installed.

good luck though


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## ivorygate (Sep 28, 2006)

kbs said:


> Good point. I know some people have called and been told that digital rebroadcasts are not supported, or somesuch nonsense. Instead, I think anyone who wants their non-cablecard QAM should email [email protected] and say "I've got this channel I'm receiving over cable and have no guide data. Could you please fix my lineup? Thank you."
> 
> Just because the cable company doesn't disclose it as part of their lineup is no excuse. They're required to rebroadcast it in the clear, according to the FCC, and the Tivo should support it.
> -kbs


Did that, seven replies back and forth, they continue to insist that they "do not support rebroadcast channels". When I tried to suss out what is different between basic cable rebroadcast (local network affiliate) channels and digital cable DTV versions of the same channels, I get back almost the same "form e-mail".

I even asked if it was a political issue, rather than a technical one, but all I get back is "we do not support rebroadcast channels".

I dare say TiVo does "not support rebroadcast channels", I have several e-mail replies from the TiVo "lineup agent" that says so.


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## kbs (May 15, 2004)

ivorygate said:


> Did that, seven replies back and forth, they continue to insist that they "do not support rebroadcast channels". When I tried to suss out what is different between basic cable rebroadcast (local network affiliate) channels and digital cable DTV versions of the same channels, I get back almost the same "form e-mail".
> 
> I even asked if it was a political issue, rather than a technical one, but all I get back is "we do not support rebroadcast channels".
> 
> I dare say TiVo does "not support rebroadcast channels", I have several e-mail replies from the TiVo "lineup agent" that says so.


You should refer them to this FCC ruling, which implies that any cable-ready device must support navigation based on the channel data (PSIP/etc) being sent by the cable provider. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4427399&&#post4427399


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## John949 (Sep 16, 2006)

OK. I just checked out the Tivo S3. Of the six clear QAM channels that I am interested in only two have channel info. 
The Tivo picks up this info and displays it.
ie:
4-1 has the label "KNBC HD Studio link"
7-1 has the label "KABC HD CH707"

The Tivo displays truncated versions of these labels on the info screen below the clock but above the channel number. The labels are also seen in the To Do list, etc.

The other four HD channels ( 2-1, 11-1, 86-1, and 86-2 ) have no information associated with them. But note that 2-1 and 11-1 are the HD versions of analog channels 2 and 11. 86-1 is the HD version of channel 10 and 86-2 is the HD version of channel 5.

My Vizio TV will not only display these two channel labels but will also pick up program guide information from the cable.


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## ivorygate (Sep 28, 2006)

John949 said:


> OK. I just checked out the Tivo S3. Of the six clear QAM channels that I am interested in only two have channel info.
> The Tivo picks up this info and displays it.
> ie:
> 4-1 has the label "KNBC HD Studio link"
> ...


So, you have confirmed that 4-1 and 7-1 aren't actually just "ANT" channels added to the Channel List during the initial setup based solely on your zip code? 
They are in fact "CBL" QAM-based channels that were only added after doing a Channel Scan?

For me, all CBL QAM-based channels added with a Channel Scan show up in the Channel List screen with an asterisk * and they are *not* associated with any station guide information.

I am baffled how you would actually have cable DTV channels associated with guide data, when seven replies back from TiVo support say there is no way for them to link programming guide information to scanned QAM channels.

I almost need a digital picture of your Channel List screen showing me your channel 4-1 and 7-1 actually show CBL next to them and not ANT... not that I don't believe you, but at this point in my frustration I really want the proof.


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## sjcbulldog (Jul 13, 2004)

John949 said:


> OK. I just checked out the Tivo S3. Of the six clear QAM channels that I am interested in only two have channel info.
> The Tivo picks up this info and displays it.
> ie:
> 4-1 has the label "KNBC HD Studio link"
> ...


Before I got my cable cards, this is how my setup worked as well. There was something in the information sent by the station that allowed the Tivo to determine that station name for some of the QAM channels that were unencrypted (all locals). My TV could pick up the program guide information broadcast on the signal, but the Tivo had no program guide information at all. Everything was "regular programming", so I still had to record using manual time and channel settings.

Sjcbulldog


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## John949 (Sep 16, 2006)

ivorygate said:


> So, you have confirmed that 4-1 and 7-1 aren't actually just "ANT" channels added to the Channel List during the initial setup based solely on your zip code?
> They are in fact "CBL" QAM-based channels that were only added after doing a Channel Scan?
> 
> I am baffled how you would actually have cable DTV channels associated with guide data, when seven replies back from TiVo support say there is no way for them to link programming guide information to scanned QAM channels.


Yes these are cable, clear QAM, HD channels. I did a channel scan to get them.
The guide data I was referring to is not Tivo guide data. It is program guide info that is broadcast with the digital HD channel over the cable. This guide data does not show up on the Tivo.

I have three devices that can pick up these QAM channels.
1. Vizio LCD HDTV
2. FusionHDTV tuner card for my computer
3. Tivo S3


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## sonicboom (Sep 2, 2006)

woodie said:


> I had success recording movies from StarsHD, while there was a promo, and they were in-th-clear.
> I am thinking about pulling my cards this weekend to record Battlestar Ggallactica in HD from UHD,
> which in not mapped by the cablecard. UHD is no longer available when the card are installed.


Does UHD actually run the current season of Battlestar Galactica?

I checked the listings for UHD and SciFi, and only SciFi showed episodes from Season 3 coming up. UHD just seemed to show season 2 episodes.

The Season 3 premier episode is called "Occupation" and airs for the first time Friday Oct 6th @ 9:00.

Actually... the *ONLY* episode on UHD I see is "Home"... several instances of it.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

sonicboom said:


> Does UHD actually run the current season of Battlestar Galactica?
> 
> I checked the listings for UHD and SciFi, and only SciFi showed episodes from Season 3 coming up. UHD just seemed to show season 2 episodes.
> 
> ...


 UHD is a season behind unfortunately... so I stick to watching the SciFi new episodes despite them being SD.


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