# Rip off Britain stinks



## gadgetguy (May 26, 2002)

Sorry if this has been discussed before but its bad enough the gauling gap between the States and over here with regards to the available Tivo technology, but when you see the Tivo HD selling for about £150 over there and in the UK we pay twice the price for our HD fix with less usability and features you have to wonder what the hell is going on!

Add to that £10 subs (£120 more every year) in the UK and £150 being the complete price in the States and you just want to throw up.

In short, the American market pays a fraction of what we do for tonnes more technology.

When are we going to get a fair deal.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

When US ecomonies of scale kick in? Just a thought


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

gadgetguy said:


> Sorry if this has been discussed before but its bad enough the gauling gap between the States and over here with regards to the available Tivo technology, but when you see the Tivo HD selling for about £150 over there and in the UK we pay twice the price for our HD fix with less usability and features you have to wonder what the hell is going on!
> 
> Add to that £10 subs (£120 more every year) in the UK and £150 being the complete price in the States and you just want to throw up.
> 
> ...


When we can go to UK and not pay TWICE the amount for the same stuff for over here


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

Erm, yeah, right... that will happen when the likes of Microsoft, Apple, etc stop crossing out the dollar sign and putting a pound sign instead.


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## Andy Leitch (Apr 30, 2005)

kitschcamp said:


> Erm, yeah, right... that will happen when the likes of Microsoft, Apple, etc stop crossing out the dollar sign and putting a pound sign instead.


Sometimes they even just pluck a number out of thin air and then put a pound sign at the front.

UK

Windows Vista Ultimate - Retail £369.99

http://www.comet.co.uk/cometbrowse/product.do?sku=375322

Which equals to $753!!

USA

Windows Vista Ultimate - Retail $479

http://nvnews.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=30710428/search=vista

Which equals £234!!

Even the most expensive store is still way cheaper then the UK price.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

I don't think economies of scale have much to do with it. Otherwise, they wouldn't be charging us more for products than in the rest of Europe, when they don't even have to (or bother to) translate the language from the US version.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

It's basically an import tariff imposed not by the destination country but by the manufacturer!

Well, if anybody from the US wants to buy a Glo remote from me they're welcome - at £42.50 plus a £20 shipping surcharge of course


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

Andy Leitch said:


> Sometimes they even just pluck a number out of thin air and then put a pound sign at the front.
> 
> UK
> Windows Vista Ultimate - Retail £369.99
> ...


But who ever buy MS software at the full retail price only the rich and thick !!!

I have never ever paid retail prices for MS software, even volume licence (which starts at only 5 copies in three years to qualify) is significantly cheaper (£200 for Vista Ultimate).

Full version of Vista Ultimate is available for around £270 and the OEM version for £91 (scan.co.uk).

Technically you can buy a disk drive + OEM Vista and pop it an old machine and not be violating the licence (too much). I have done this a couple of times with a 250GB disk (£30) + Vista Ultimate (£91) + (office 2007) £103. Only downside of OEM is if machine dies you loose the licence and MS will not allow activation (ok they do if you ask hard enough and know the "words") on a replacement/another machine.


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## Andy Leitch (Apr 30, 2005)

Ian_m said:


> But who ever buy MS software at the full retail price only the rich and thick !!!


Or perhaps they just don't know any better, as they're not technically minded!
Not everyone is a geek.


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

Andy Leitch said:


> Or perhaps they just don't know any better, as they're not technically minded!
> Not everyone is a geek.


 Ok maybe not thick (sorry bit strong), but I am sure that before I spent £370 on anything, I would at least have a look elsewhere to see if I was getting value for money.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Surely by definition you have to be a bit of a geek to buy an operating system separately? 
I would imagine most people buy a computer and use what ever it came with until it breaks or they buy a new one. It's got to be fairly geeky to install a new OS on an old machine. I certainly haven't 'upgraded' OS on anything since I replaced Windows 3.11 with 95 on my work computer back in the dark ages.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

iankb said:


> I don't think economies of scale have much to do with it.


Well it was a guess. I'm not an expert


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

OEM has its disadvantages. You can't replace the motherboard, or upgrade the OS. I had to 'persuade them' that a BIOS upgrade was a valid change. Hopefully, they now have me marked as 'tinkerer' and have given me a more tolerant authentication key.


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

iankb said:


> OEM has its disadvantages. You can't replace the motherboard, or upgrade the OS. I had to 'persuade them' that a BIOS upgrade was a valid change. Hopefully, they now have me marked as 'tinkerer' and have given me a more tolerant authentication key.


Not quite true.

MS OEM OS's are upgradable, what you mean is you can't use the OEM as an upgrade. I have certainly upgraded Win95 OEM -> XP, Win2000 OEM -> XP and XP OEM -> Vista via upgrade CD's, works fine as can be expected.

As for Office OEM, that is sligjhtly more relaxed. MS got into a right pickle in Office XP timescale, where people bought machines with OEM Office XP and installed their current standard of say Office 97, but when they came to reinstall/activate their OEM copies of Office XP they were refused !!! I think there is a tool to allow Office XP OEM to be installed if Office is already present, all the later OEM Office versions allow reinstallation and inheriting the older Office settings. We certianly got a machine or two with OEM Office 2003 installed, installed our standard Ofcice 97 for a while, before re-installing Office 2003 OEM again when ready.

As for motherboard changing, the words you need to know are "warranty replacement". A lot of people were being refused re-activation when their motherboard was replaced under warranty and they had not bought a *new* OEM licence. This has now been relaxed. We had a Dell XP machine die at work, dead ATA disk controller, got a new Dell motherboard from Ebay (£55) and had to phone to re-activate XP, but just said it was a warranty mother board replacement and was activated no issue.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

gadgetguy said:


> Add to that £10 subs (£120 more every year) in the UK and £150 being the complete price in the States


I don't think this is the whole story.

As I understand it, Lifetime Subscriptions are *still* available in the UK for £200; they are not available in the US.

The cheapest Tivo I could find on the US site as $99, which is cheap, but looking at *https://www3.tivo.com/store/plans.do*, the cheapest subscription available is the 3-year prepay deal at $299, the conditions of which state


> After the prepaid service period is complete, your TiVo Package will continue at the then-applicable monthly rate for the 3 year TiVo Package that was chosen.


That rate is currently $12.95 per month.

I'll let others do the conversions and calculations, but, as I see it, it's not as rosy in the US, nor as bleak in the UK as was made out in the original post.


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## dean9000 (Oct 3, 2007)

this is true....no more lifetime subscriptions over here....i have a lifetime subscription series 2 and I bought back in '03 and just replaced the hard drive....it sucks that i can't get another lifetime but i guess i should be thankful for the newer tivo gear....


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## smokie (Dec 27, 2002)

...and, generally, pay is less in the US - and they have to pay more for healthcare - and they get less holidays. It's swings and roundabouts.


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## Pugwash (May 23, 2003)

If you're in the right industry, you can become a Microsoft Partner and buy their Action Pack. Due to the nature of my business I've just bought the FULL suite of microsoft desktop and server software with 10 desktop licenses for products like Office 2007 and Vista. It's only for internal use but it'll serve the 7 or 8 machines we have in the office and run a local Exchange server on Windows 2003 Small Business Edition. Total price: 200 (+vat) with a year of updates.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

smokie said:


> ...and, generally, pay is less in the US.


Eh? Median household income in the Uk is £21k; in the |US it's $48k.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

But you're including Bill Gates!


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

In theory Bill should not affect the median much.
However the tens of thousands of multi-millionaires created by Silicon Valley would.

However, I would imagine the median amount of inherited assets held might be more in the UK than US due to our aristocracy.

I think I would be paid less in the USA, but would pay less taxes, property would be cheaper, most goods would be cheaper and food would cost half as much as the portions are twice as large there.

Tempting, but friends and family and my businesses are based here.

We get BBC HD, less adverts, milder weather, cheap flights to Europe, proper beer, real chocolate, and don't have to travel hundreds of miles to get to somewhere different.
Overrall I prefer London to New York or LA.

Would be nice to have a holiday home in the USA and a TiVo series 3 though!


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

cyril said:


> I think I would be paid less in the USA, but would pay less taxes, property would be cheaper, most goods would be cheaper and food would cost half as much as the portions are twice as large there.


Sounds great - but I keep reading how the price of gas in the US has gone up alarmingly recently ... to about ... wait for it... 36p per litre!


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

TCM2007 said:


> Eh? Median household income in the Uk is £21k; in the |US it's $48k.


Even your own Statement puts those in England in a better position:

As of Today:

1 GBP = 2.0 US Dollars. SO:

Median Household Income converted would be:

UK: $42k US: $48k

Keep in mind that the US has many many more People AND all the Wealthy ones like Hollywood Stars, Bill Gates etc, whcih throws out the Median Income alot.

Realistically, atleast 60 % of the population makes no where near $48k a Year.

We also have High Health Costs, No Employment Contracts like those in the UK (Holidays etc) and yes Gas is getting expensive. Today it is $2.89 a Gallon here in KY. It may not sound bad, but compare it to a Year ago when it was $1.79 a Gallon.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

wolflord11 said:


> and yes Gas is getting expensive. Today it is $2.89 a Gallon here in KY. It may not sound bad, but compare it to a Year ago when it was $1.79 a Gallon.


...and in the UK it's *$7.53 per US Gallon*  (£0.98 per litre x 3.78 litres per US gallon x 2.03 dollars to the pound)


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

> yes Gas is getting expensive


As is my petrol


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

wolflord11 said:


> Even your own Statement puts those in England in a better position:
> 
> As of Today:
> 
> ...


Er, yes that was my point?



> Keep in mind that the US has many many more People AND all the Wealthy ones like Hollywood Stars, Bill Gates etc, whcih throws out the Median Income alot.
> 
> Realistically, atleast 60 % of the population makes no where near $48k a Year.


No, I quoted _median_ income - exactly 50% of the population earns that much or more. that's what median means. You are think of _mean_ which does have the distortion effect you menation.



> We also have High Health Costs.


And your tax rates are way lower as a result. It's hard to make exact comparisons, but the income tax rate at earnings of £50k ($100k) is 25% in the US; here it's around 50%. The differential is similar at other pay levels. And we don't have "deductibles" in the same way you do either.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

TCM2007 said:


> And your tax rates are way lower as a result. It's hard to make exact comparisons, but the income tax rate at earnings of £50k ($100k) is 25% in the US; here it's around 50%. The differential is similar at other pay levels. And we don't have "deductibles" in the same way you do either.


Well Tax Rates vary according to State. It also depends on which City, County etc you live in. For example here in Kentucky:

I pay: Federal Tax, State Tax, County Tax, City Tax. Ands thats before I even see a dime of my Pay Check.

Then there other Taxes, Petrol, Food, Internet, Phone etc. Hell they want to raise Ciggi tax up 125% on what it currently is.

But even still. Try finding someone making $100K here where I live, and its a City with 80,000 People. Somewhere along the lines you have been grossly misinformed.


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

wolflord11 said:


> I pay: Federal Tax, State Tax, County Tax, City Tax. Ands thats before I even see a dime of my Pay Check.


Even the UK plays the "multiple taxes to disguise the true cost" game. You have income tax, national insurance, then local taxes. It all adds up to a pretty penny overall.

That's something I really like about Sweden, they have "Skatt" and that's it. It includes your national and local taxes, and once done, it's done. One rate you see and it's easy to understand.


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

Andy Leitch said:


> Sometimes they even just pluck a number out of thin air and then put a pound sign at the front.
> 
> UK
> 
> ...


You're forgetting one thing:

USA

We Love Bill! Let him put whatever he likes in the OS!

UK (well Europe really)

We Hate Bill!, Make him spend millions on his Attorneys as we bombard him with anti-trust suits

See, it's Brussels that makes Vista so expensive, not Microsoft


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

Sherminator said:


> See, it's Brussels that makes Vista so expensive, not Microsoft


Correct !!!

We used to get Win2k for £23 a copy as we didn't install Netscape, AOL etc etc and we purchased in volume. If you want to install other non MS apps you would pay more (£36 per copy if you supplied Netscape I think).

After Brussels deemed this differential price charging illegal MS set a fixed price regardless of quantity and what you installed. It was £86 per copy !!!

So this is why Vista Business (equivalent of Win2K) is about £90 rather than £23 !!!!

This is also why new machines supplied nowadays are filled with so much other software crap evaluation/demo/sign-up/old versions etc.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

wolflord11 said:


> Well Tax Rates vary according to State. It also depends on which City, County etc you live in. For example here in Kentucky:
> 
> I pay: Federal Tax, State Tax, County Tax, City Tax. Ands thats before I even see a dime of my Pay Check.
> 
> ...


Same here; we have local tax (split and varied by county and parish) and a blanket 17.5% sales tax for good luck.

I know nothing about your city obviously, but the average figures I quoted are US government sourced.

I have US friends who do very "normal" working persons jobs who have large houses and pools who would be living in ex-council estates if doing the same thing here.

I don't deny the existence of the American poor, but the American "doing OK" is much better off than their opposite number here.


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

It's more a case of the practice of segmenting markets and closing out competition allows companies to charge as much as they can get away with charging in each region.

It's something of a dilemma for me as I hate anti global competitive tactics like this, especially the practice of blocking the consumer from purchasing outside of their region, but I work for companies that do exactly that and the practice pays my salary ultimately. 

The upshot of this is that we in the UK are perhaps more tolerant or resigned to paying huge prices so that's what they charge.

Thankfully some of these practices are at least illegal within the EU although it still doesn't stop them charging more in the UK, but we can at least buy from elsewhere in the EU without hindrance, issues with warranty or have import retailers threatened with legal action for importing (as Sony do to importers to the UK).


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