# So it looks like the $299 - 180-hour TiVo® HD DVR is out now.



## markjrenna (Mar 23, 2006)

So it looks like the $299 - 180-hour TiVo® HD DVR is out now.


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## supasta (May 6, 2006)

Yup.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=359944
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=359916
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=358862


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

So is MSD on bundles. 

But eSata, MRV/TTG :down:


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## markjrenna (Mar 23, 2006)

Do I need Cable Cards for it to work? Can someone explain it to me? Thanks


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## mikebridge (Sep 18, 2000)

markjrenna said:


> Do I need Cable Cards for it to work? Can someone explain it to me? Thanks


you wouldn't get any encrypted/premium channels w/o cable cards, but it could record your basic cable -- maybe some 'basic' HD channels, depending if your provider leaves them in the clear, or encrypts them w/ the rest of their digital content. and you could hook up an antenna to the ATSC tuner to get over the air HD broadcasts.


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## pascuzzo (Sep 28, 2006)

So us satellite users are still screwed.
It's not like we were asking for Tivo Desktop Vista edition.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

pascuzzo said:


> So us satellite users are still screwed.
> It's not like we were asking for Tivo Desktop Vista edition.


A reliable source tells me that a Vista capable version of TD will be out very soon.

A satellite capable S3 will NEVER happen! Unless of course either Dish or DirecTV strikes a deal with TiVo and allows them to build a unit that's compatible with their service. TiVo is able to build S3 units for cable because a few years back the FCC stepped in and forced cable companies to adopt an open encryption technology called CableCARD. This technology allowes 3rd parties, like TiVo, to build their own hardware that works with all cable systems without the need to strike a special deal with a specific provider and license their encryption technology. The FCC has not imposed such a standard on satellite yet, so their encryption systems are proprietary and as such no one can build boxes that work with their service without their permission.

Dan


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## Bill McNeal (May 31, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> So is MSD on bundles.
> 
> But eSata, MRV/TTG :down:


Is eSATA only on the highest-end S3? Is there at least an eSATA port on the TiVo HD which can be activated through a backdoor?


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## sammydee (Sep 24, 2006)

markjrenna said:


> Do I need Cable Cards for it to work? Can someone explain it to me? Thanks


In almost all ways it's exactly the same as the Series 3 ... you need Cable Cards in the same cases as for the S3.

The Tivo Store is up and running, just ordered mine. They quote 14 to 21 day delivery. Can't wait! I always wanted an S3, but could never justify the $$.


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## sammydee (Sep 24, 2006)

Bill McNeal said:


> Is eSATA only on the highest-end S3? Is there at least an eSATA port on the TiVo HD which can be activated through a backdoor?


There's an ESATA port. Whether the backdoor works ... who knows?

All I know is that I've already got email from DVRUpgrade about it ... here's their data sheet showing the front and back panel layouts.

http://www.dvrupgrade.com/dvr/stores/1/datasheets/TiVoHD-spec-sheet.pdf


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Did the original Series 3 have the card slots in the front, or in the back? (I never even checked. Having them in the front seems like a pretty good move, if it's a change.)


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

gastrof said:


> Did the original Series 3 have the card slots in the front, or in the back? (I never even checked. Having them in the front seems like a pretty good move, if it's a change.)


They are in the back, one on top of the other. The THD has them side by side in the front.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Interview with TiVo VP of Marketing here:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/24/qanda-with-tivos-jim-denney-about-tivo-hd/


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

See, this is great. I am in no rush to go HD. I just bought a S2DT in the clear for $75. I will be happy with that at least until 2009 (I have just basic cable). At that point I will have options galore. S3, HDT, ComcasTiVo, etc.

I am just happy that there is now an HD Box listing for under $300. This is very good news for TiVo all around. I think they will sell a lot of these new boxes, especially come holiday time.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

pascuzzo said:


> So us satellite users are still screwed.


Not you are not. The Series 2 still works with satellite.

The MO of the Series 3 is that satellite can't work with it.


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## StuffOfInterest (Jul 18, 2007)

sammydee said:


> All I know is that I've already got email from DVRUpgrade about it ... here's their data sheet showing the front and back panel layouts.


Hmm, the back panel breakout tells a big story.

First, and foremost, you'll have to use CableCard (CC) for HD input as there is no HDMI or Composite input (with box IR control) at all. This also explains why satellite service will not work being that you would have to control the sat box with IR. I can live with that as it removes the need for a separate cable box but it does mean you are committed to using the TiVo as your sole tuner in front of the TV. Might as well buy one of the tunerless monitors unless you want to spring for yet another cable card.

Now, for my complaint on technology integration. Why didn't they dump the modem interface for an external USB modem and replace it the internal hardware with an onboard Wireless-G adapter? I'm willing to bet that there are more HD capable people out there with a wireless network than without. A larger community could be served out the box with wireless networking than with a built-in modem. Maybe we'll see this in the Series4?


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

StuffOfInterest said:


> Hmm, the back panel breakout tells a big story.
> 
> First, and foremost, you'll have to use CableCard (CC) for HD input as there is no HDMI or Composite input (with box IR control) at all.


You could use OTA HD (ATSC) or theoretically OpenQAM (but that still usually requires a cable card for channel mapping)

There are no consumer devices that can record raw HD from HDMI (the whole point of HDMI is that it's copy protected) or from component (the processing power required would cost more than your PC)


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

> Now, for my complaint on technology integration. Why didn't they dump the modem interface for an external USB modem and replace it the internal hardware with an onboard Wireless-G adapter? I'm willing to bet that there are more HD capable people out there with a wireless network than without. A larger community could be served out the box with wireless networking than with a built-in modem. Maybe we'll see this in the Series4?


It maybe worse than you think according to Megazone's Review the only wireless network adapter that will work is TiVo's.

Thanks,


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

StuffOfInterest said:


> Hmm, the back panel breakout tells a big story.
> 
> First, and foremost, you'll have to use CableCard (CC) for HD input as there is no HDMI or Composite input (with box IR control) at all. This also explains why satellite service will not work being that you would have to control the sat box with IR. I can live with that as it removes the need for a separate cable box but it does mean you are committed to using the TiVo as your sole tuner in front of the TV. Might as well buy one of the tunerless monitors unless you want to spring for yet another cable card.


 this has been gone over in detail here. It is one thing to record the digital stream to the drive; it is quite another thing to take the display output of HD and reencode it to put on the drive. Very expensive chips for this.


> Now, for my complaint on technology integration. Why didn't they dump the modem interface for an external USB modem and replace it the internal hardware with an onboard Wireless-G adapter? I'm willing to bet that there are more HD capable people out there with a wireless network than without. A larger community could be served out the box with wireless networking than with a built-in modem. Maybe we'll see this in the Series4?


the modem is probably a very cheap chip by now. Wireless on the TiVo is somewhat different in that they need to keep the SUB work off the CPU where as for USB adapters on PCs they can use that powerful CPU. So the Tivo adpater costs 50$ becasue of the good chips in it to do the USB work normally not on a USB adapter. Adding the wireless to the TiVo box would bump the final cost up quite a bit. Since it is as easy as plug the wire into the USB port nd then be able to move the adapter around for best reception, integration of such just does not make sense


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> It maybe worse than you think according to Megazone's Review the only wireless network adapter that will work is TiVo's.
> 
> Thanks,


What? The Samsung TV box doesn't work?


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## aus1ander (Sep 17, 2004)

Apparently Bestbuy.com has the TivoHD in stock, ready to ship "within one business day".


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## gregnash (Nov 9, 2006)

Ok so this comes a a great time for me as I am planning on buying an HDTV very soon here. But question is that we already have an original S2 Tivo box that we will move to the bedroom but question is, will I have to pay another $12.95 a month for the Tivo service of a second box or will it all fall under one account charge of $12.95???


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## JPA2825 (May 15, 2000)

gregnash said:


> Ok so this comes a a great time for me as I am planning on buying an HDTV very soon here. But question is that we already have an original S2 Tivo box that we will move to the bedroom but question is, will I have to pay another $12.95 a month for the Tivo service of a second box or will it all fall under one account charge of $12.95???


Neither. Most likely the S2 will continue at $12.95/mo. but you'll get some sort of MSD (Multi-Service Discount) for the TiVo HD box (usually $6 off per mo.). That said, I haven't added a new TiVo in a LONG time and whenever I see discussions trying to figure out TiVo's pricing system, my head starts to hurt.


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## Joey Bagadonuts (Mar 13, 2006)

JPA2825 said:


> That said, I haven't added a new TiVo in a LONG time and whenever I see discussions trying to figure out TiVo's pricing system, my head starts to hurt.


 Amen to THAT, brother!


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

gregnash said:


> Ok so this comes a a great time for me as I am planning on buying an HDTV very soon here. But question is that we already have an original S2 Tivo box that we will move to the bedroom but question is, will I have to pay another $12.95 a month for the Tivo service of a second box or will it all fall under one account charge of $12.95???


If you login to your account on Tivo.com and you choose to "Buy TiVo", it will show you your MSD options for buying direct from Tivo.com.


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## jherico (Jan 5, 2006)

StuffOfInterest said:


> Now, for my complaint on technology integration. Why didn't they dump the modem interface for an external USB modem and replace it the internal hardware with an onboard Wireless-G adapter?


Adding a wireless G adapter will up the cost and be a nice feature for those with wireless networks, but removing the modem is a deal breaker. It means that people without a network at all can't use the device whatsoever. Requiring an always on internet connection is going to limit the market compared to requiring a POTS line.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

StuffOfInterest said:


> Now, for my complaint on technology integration. Why didn't they dump the modem interface for an external USB modem and replace it the internal hardware with an onboard Wireless-G adapter? I'm willing to bet that there are more HD capable people out there with a wireless network than without. A larger community could be served out the box with wireless networking than with a built-in modem. Maybe we'll see this in the Series4?


The ethernet and usb ports are most likely a part of the motherboard (perhaps the modem too). So they are not adding anything to the cost. Adding a internal wireless-g card would undoubtedly add a lot to the cost since it would cost much more than the modem.


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## Wheens (Jan 1, 2003)

I was just reading about the HD at Tivo's site. In the features discription and in the specs, it states that with certain features a broadband internet connection is required. I'm a Comcast cable cust'r for both TV and internet...would I have a "broadband" connection thru the cable coax into the HD, or do I need some other connection to the HD?


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

Ethernet or Wireless !


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## Wheens (Jan 1, 2003)

Dmon4u said:


> Ethernet or Wireless !


You mean I will need to run ethernet from my router to the Tivo?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

rainwater said:


> The ethernet and usb ports are most likely a part of the motherboard (perhaps the modem too). So they are not adding anything to the cost. Adding a internal wireless-g card would undoubtedly add a lot to the cost since it would cost much more than the modem.





ZeoTiVo said:


> the modem is probably a very cheap chip by now. Wireless on the TiVo is somewhat different in that they need to keep the SUB work off the CPU where as for USB adapters on PCs they can use that powerful CPU. So the Tivo adpater costs 50$ becasue of the good chips in it to do the USB work normally not on a USB adapter. Adding the wireless to the TiVo box would bump the final cost up quite a bit. Since it is as easy as plug the wire into the USB port nd then be able to move the adapter around for best reception, integration of such just does not make sense


PS Wheens - however you hook your Pc up now to the internet - you do the same thing for the TiVo


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

plus wireless technology changes. Easier to just do any external hw wifi upgrades.


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## sniperlv (Jan 17, 2001)

I want to pick up a couple of these and replace the 2 S2's that I currently have. My questions are this. I pay $12.95 for the one and I think $ 6.00 for the subs. Can I just transfer that over to the new S3's? Als I have Cox for my cable provider they do offer cable cards at $ 2.00 per month but they are only one way. Can I purchase my own cable cards or are they Carrier specific?


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

sniperlv said:


> I want to pick up a couple of these and replace the 2 S2's that I currently have. My questions are this. I pay $12.95 for the one and I think $ 6.00 for the subs. Can I just transfer that over to the new S3's? Als I have Cox for my cable provider they do offer cable cards at $ 2.00 per month but they are only one way. Can I purchase my own cable cards or are they Carrier specific?


You may be able to transfer over your Commitments to the THD units. You would pay $12.95 a Month for the First, and $6.95 for each additional one.

Also, any unit now purchased from *Tivo.com QUALIFIES for MSD*. In the past they did not, so its good to see Tivo listened to its users and has come to the party on this.

You would have to get the CableCards from your Cable Provider. From Tivo's site:

"Cable service required to receive cable channels. TiVo does not provide cable service. CableCARD customers may require 2 cards for dual tuner functionality"

One thing I saw on the Tivo Site:

"Not all TiVo Service networking features are currently available on the TiVo HD DVR"

Atleast they have made it clear that certain Networking features: MRV, TTG are still not available.


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## sniperlv (Jan 17, 2001)

Thanks wolflord, Does the HD units let you transfer shows from each other? The one way doesn't really bother me as I never order the PPV anyways. If its something I want to see I use unbox from Amazon.


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## dvr4me (Jul 10, 2007)

sniperlv said:


> Thanks wolflord, Does the HD units let you transfer shows from each other? The one way doesn't really bother me as I never order the PPV anyways. If its something I want to see I use unbox from Amazon.


MRV = Multi Room Viewing = Transfer shows from one Tivo to another. As posted above, MRV is not available for the Tivo HD at this time (but supposedly it is being worked on).


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> A satellite capable S3 will NEVER happen! Unless of course either Dish or DirecTV strikes a deal with TiVo and allows them to build a unit that's compatible with their service. TiVo is able to build S3 units for cable because a few years back the FCC stepped in and forced cable companies to adopt an open encryption technology called CableCARD. This technology allowes 3rd parties, like TiVo, to build their own hardware that works with all cable systems without the need to strike a special deal with a specific provider and license their encryption technology. The FCC has not imposed such a standard on satellite yet, so their encryption systems are proprietary and as such no one can build boxes that work with their service without their permission.


The satellite companies have a waiver for "cablecard".. That waiver was arguably reasonable way back when the rule that turned into cablecard was put into place, but is no longer reasonable.

The FCC should remove the waiver, and make people able to get other DVRs for satellite too.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

StuffOfInterest said:


> Hmm, the back panel breakout tells a big story.
> 
> First, and foremost, you'll have to use CableCard (CC) for HD input as there is no HDMI or Composite input (with box IR control) at all. This also explains why satellite service will not work being that you would have to control the sat box with IR...


Ummm...

The original, higher priced Series 3 didn't have any inputs except RF. It wasn't meant for use with any kind of set top box either.

This is nothing new.

Why are you saying this?


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## sniperlv (Jan 17, 2001)

dvr4me said:


> MRV = Multi Room Viewing = Transfer shows from one Tivo to another. As posted above, MRV is not available for the Tivo HD at this time (but supposedly it is being worked on).


Maybe I need to rethink my purchase until this is available. I really use that feature lots.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

sniperlv said:


> Maybe I need to rethink my purchase until this is available. I really use that feature lots.


This is a problem both the Original Series 3 and the THD have. No MRV and No TTG as of yet.

There has been constant talk that they are coming, but then again so is Xmas.

Its a crippling factor.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

wolflord11 said:


> You may be able to transfer over your Commitments to the THD units.


Why do you say "you MAY be able to transfer" - YOU CAN, as long as it's not a lifetime plan.

In most cases you can do it yourself online.

Tivo cares that you have a plan and doesn't really care which box it's on.

Bought an single tuner Series 2 with a three year plan and now want to get a Tivo HD, but don't want to keep the S2? Buy a TivoHD and transfer service. 

Want to keep the S2? The service for the HD will cost you $6/month less for whatever plan you pick (e.g. commit service for 3 years, pay $6.95 per month, not $12.95)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mattack said:


> The FCC should remove the waiver, and make people able to get other DVRs for satellite too.


I agree! Satellite companies already have a conditional access card system in place which would easily allow 3rd parties to make devices. They just don't allow it because they don't have to and they'd rather sell your their own brand boxes instead. There was a time when DirecTV had a pretty open stance on the subject and allowed several manufacturers to produce boxes for their service, including two who made DVRs. (i.e. TiVo and UltimateTV) But somewhere along the lines they started locking it down and forcing everyone to use their own brand hardware.

Dan


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

And people complain about the *cable *companies? Pretty silly, if you ask me.


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## StuffOfInterest (Jul 18, 2007)

gastrof said:


> Ummm...
> 
> The original, higher priced Series 3 didn't have any inputs except RF. It wasn't meant for use with any kind of set top box either.
> 
> ...


Just an observation. A lot of Series2 users didn't take a close look at the first Series3 because of the price. Now that there is an affordable HD unit out there people who didn't look before will. Some, myself included, will be surprised to find out that you can't use an external cable box with the HD unit.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

bicker said:


> And people complain about the *cable *companies? Pretty silly, if you ask me.


They prosecute murderers *and  * rapists, don't they?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wolflord11 said:


> This is a problem both the Original Series 3 and the THD have. No MRV and No TTG as of yet.
> 
> There has been constant talk that they are coming, but then again so is Xmas.
> 
> Its a crippling factor.


TiVo plans to have MRV/TTG in place by the end of the year for the S3 line. The S3 will get it first being the lead code branch for the S3 line and then the TiVo HD will get it soon after as it gets on the same code base as the S3.

When I see a lifetime transfer offer for the THD I will buy one resting assured that MRV/TTG will follow soon. It is too importnat a differentiator for TiVo to not follow through on.

-- edited to state TiVo plans as someone was afraid such positive statements were a horrible crime on the forum


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> And people complain about the *cable *companies? Pretty silly, if you ask me.


yes, the cable companies ar a model of cooperation and have such an open network that you could even order PPV straight from a cable card TV 

NOTE - immense sarcasm here as the exact opposite is true of the rapi.. er, I mean Cable companies


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## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

rainwater said:


> If you login to your account on Tivo.com and you choose to "Buy TiVo", it will show you your MSD options for buying direct from Tivo.com.


Yeah, but whats the deal with contract commitment? If I choose the MSD of $6.95, I have to agree to pay that for 3 years? Thats lame. They never used to do that.

And what happens if one signs up for 3 years (which is an epoch in tech terms) and then Tivo offers some sort of Lifetime transfer opportunity?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Unix_Beard said:


> Yeah, but whats the deal with contract commitment? If I choose the MSD of $6.95, I have to agree to pay that for 3 years? Thats lame. They never used to do that.
> 
> And what happens if one signs up for 3 years (which is an epoch in tech terms) and then Tivo offers some sort of Lifetime transfer opportunity?


then you are stuck. It is a matter of waiting for the deal you want. I did not buy the S3 because even 600$ was more than I personally wanted to spend. Now I like the THD and its price point but will hold off a bit to see if the lifetime transfer grows loud enough for TiVo to offer it.

I suspect though that sales will be good on this box.

and the 1,2 or 3 years has been around a good while now. What is new that you can see the MSD on the bundle as you pruchase if you sign in and are qualified for MSD.

I wish they would do a 3 year prepay at MSD rate for two years. I think I would bite on that if offered


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## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

I noticed that. The prepay is the regular price, not the MSD.

That stinks about the commitment thing. I don't do that currently on my MSD Tivo. I pay $6.95 a month with no contract that I know of...


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

wolflord11 said:


> This is a problem both the Original Series 3 and the THD have. No MRV and No TTG as of yet.
> 
> There has been constant talk that they are coming, but then again so is Xmas.
> 
> Its a crippling factor.


Crippling how? My S3 works just fine.


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## DTSDude (May 24, 2006)

I'm torn, buy one now or wait till eSata is available.

GJ Tivo, this will bring in a lot of revenue even if they take a small hit on the hardware. People are tired of sub par DVRs and $300 is in a decent price range for the average consumer who was able to afford the HDTV to go with it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DTSDude said:


> I'm torn, buy one now or wait till eSata is available.


when eSata is enableed it will work just fine on the TiVo you buy now. I would not hold off just for that.

Plus, I imagine reports will come in soon enough of expanding drive in the TiVo itself and someone figuring out the process to do eSata anyhow without waiting


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> They prosecute murderers *and  * rapists, don't they?


True, but this isn't "murderers and rapists"! The satellite companies are not only granted leave from having to open their networks, but no one is harping after them to do so -- they're not even criticized for it. Meanwhile, all this mania is directed toward the cable companies, which have opened their networks, just because they haven't opened them even wider, as some people want! Insanity!


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## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Crippling how? My S3 works just fine.


You can MRV your S3? Fill me in.

THose of us that have multiple Tivos rely on MRV as much as the Tivo interface itself.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Unix_Beard said:


> You can MRV your S3? Fill me in.
> 
> THose of us that have multiple Tivos rely on MRV as much as the Tivo interface itself.


it will be there by the end of the year. I agree it weighed heavily on my thoughts to get the first S3 model but TiVo has figured out what they can do with cable labs which si still quite a bit - including OTA HD. I look ofrward to some very good MRV/TTG capabilities on the S3


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## modnar (Oct 15, 2000)

This at least got me to call my cable company to ask about their cable cards. It sounds like they only have 1.0 single-stream (rep said it was very basic - couldn't order pay-per-view, etc.), and you have to *buy* the card for $130. So it would be $260 if I wanted to use the dual tuners. The rep did say they are supposed to get some newer cards sometime. I'll probably wait it out for a while.


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## GameJerk (Jul 8, 2007)

If i enter into a 1,2,3 year contract is that attatched the box itself or just my account? Say I buy a TIVO HD now and then in 2 years tivo releases some uber cool new Tivo that i just HAVE to have because I have no free will of my own. Will I be able to transfer my contract over to the new box?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

modnar said:


> and you have to *buy* the card for $130. So it would be $260 if I wanted to use the dual tuners. .


My understanding is this is a flagrant violation of the FCC rules. I would call back, get a supervisor and mention the FCC to see what they say to that. Of ocurse I am not a lawyer and would not represent you at trial


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## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

What the hell. I'm in for one. Three years.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

This may depend on what cable company we're talking about.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> This may depend on what cable company we're talking about.


I was wondering that. Even if the company has a waiver and does not have to offer them - can they say you have to buy the card at retail price if they do offer them anyhow or do they have to follow the rules on reasonable pricing


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

sniperlv said:


> Als I have Cox for my cable provider they do offer cable cards at $ 2.00 per month but they are only one way. Can I purchase my own cable cards or are they Carrier specific?


The card probably would work in a two-way host and offer the two way capabilities the host is capable of. The THD is not a two-way host, so the cards they offer is what you need in that unit.

Generally Cablecards are not offered for sale, and are provider specific, on paper or otherwise (Rule of thumb, Motorola devices could be authorized across systems, if the providers allowed it, SciAtl devices are generally system specific, as the provider privately receives the keys for that bunch of hardware they purchased)


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

GameJerk said:


> If i enter into a 1,2,3 year contract is that attatched the box itself or just my account?


To the account. Only Lifetime is attached to the box.
The caveat is you must buy the box retail for full price, you cannot accept rebates or any special service included deals.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> My understanding is this is a flagrant violation of the FCC rules. I would call back, get a supervisor and mention the FCC to see what they say to that. Of ocurse I am not a lawyer and would not represent you at trial


IMO it isn't. It is reasonably available. I'd buy them with the stipulation they will buy them back at a pro-rated price, and/or other providers will let me use them on their service.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

classicsat said:


> IMO it isn't. It is reasonably available. I'd buy them with the stipulation they will buy them back at a pro-rated price, and/or other providers will let me use them on their service.


if the cable company does not have a waiver and needs to provide cable cards they have to provide them at a reasonable monthly rate as stipulated in the FCC ruling. I can not beleive they would be able to make you buy something that would not be accepted by another cable company.

for a company that does have a waiver, well then we need someone with lawyerly knowledge of the FCC ruling most likely. It is extremely unreasonable to make someone buy cards that have no value in any other way. That is the same as making you buy the cable company set top box.


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## aegl (Jun 23, 2004)

Way down at the bottom of the FAQ for the new TiVO box it says:

"Currently, certain advanced and interactive digital cable services such as video-on-demand, enhanced program guide, and pay-per-view services may require the use of a separate cable company-provided set-top box. For more information about interactive digital cable services, please call your local cable operator."

I presume that Comcast ondemand is one of those services. Would I be foolish to think that the "Currently" at the start of that sentence means that this might actually change in the near (6 month) future? What exactly is the hold-up for this feature?

1) Can the current generation of cablecards support ondemand access?
2) Is it just a simple matter of programming effort to enable the feature?
3) Is the problem legal/contractual rather than technical?

Lack of this feature is a deal-breaker for me. If I still have to keep the Comcast set-top box to access ondemand, then I might as well pay them the $5 to enable DVR mode in it too.

P.S. Anyone with a "Kill-o-watt" or "Watts-up" meter measured the standby power draw from this new machine? The specifications page tells me how big the box is, and how much it weighs, but not how much it will cost me to run it.


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## modnar (Oct 15, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> My understanding is this is a flagrant violation of the FCC rules. I would call back, get a supervisor and mention the FCC to see what they say to that. Of ocurse I am not a lawyer and would not represent you at trial


I wondered that as well and had started to do some research on the FCC requirements. If I get more serious about going HD, I'll discuss it with them in more detail.

It's a small cable company - a local company that supports this town of about 52,000, but they are surprisingly progressive with their technology for a smaller company. This company also serves all utilities other than natural gas (water, electric, cable, internet, sewer). It's nice paying that all on one bill.


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## GameJerk (Jul 8, 2007)

classicsat said:


> To the account. Only Lifetime is attached to the box.
> The caveat is you must buy the box retail for full price, you cannot accept rebates or any special service included deals.


Currently there are no deals for the new TivoHD correct? I have 2 S2 boxes and have the MSD where I pay 12.95 for one and 6.95 for the other. I apy monthyl currently with no contract. Is there a way to continue paying these monthly fees w/no contract if I just buy it directly from Tivo or Best Buy for $299?? If there is a document that explains this already please inform me so i'm not asking questions that have been answered numerous times. Thank you.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I was wondering that. Even if the company has a waiver and does not have to offer them - can they say you have to buy the card at retail price if they do offer them anyhow or do they have to follow the rules on reasonable pricing


If they are not subject to the regulation, then they can surely charge whatever the market will bare, which is the definition of "reasonable pricing" in such situations.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> That is the same as making you buy the cable company set top box.


Which is analogous to what satellite services make their customers do, and indeed they find themselves in the same situation, i.e., having a waiver from the requirement to provide separable security in set-top boxes.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

modnar said:


> I wondered that as well and had started to do some research on the FCC requirements. If I get more serious about going HD, I'll discuss it with them in more detail.
> 
> It's a small cable company - a local company that supports this town of about 52,000, but they are surprisingly progressive with their technology for a smaller company. This company also serves all utilities other than natural gas (water, electric, cable, internet, sewer). It's nice paying that all on one bill.


then they are most likely waived from having to provide cable card at all. It does sound more like they are trying to offer the tech then but can not buy the cards in bulk nor can they afford to buy them in the hopes of getting money back since they seem to be paying retail as well. 
Still I would talk to them some more, maybe the person who offered to sell it did not know what the tech was for and that you could not use it elsewhere.

and Bicker - yes I stipulate that sat companies got a big bye on this that they should not have - they are "evil"


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

I am willing to bet the CSR was confused. Cable companies are now required to sell you a box instead of leasing it, but they are required to lease the cable cards inside those boxes. I bet the CSR mixed these up.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

aegl said:


> I presume that Comcast ondemand is one of those services. Would I be foolish to think that the "Currently" at the start of that sentence means that this might actually change in the near (6 month) future?


Yes, you would be foolish to think that within 6 months , what is now a UDCP certified device will support bi-directional services, when there is no indication of two-way hardware being included in the released hardware, and there is absolutely no movement on the regulatory/standards front that would permit TiVo to implement two-way in a manner that they'd be comfortable with from their philosophical and business perspectives.



> What exactly is the hold-up for this feature?
> 
> 1) Can the current generation of cablecards support ondemand access?


The cards themselves, yes. The hosts (as in the Tivo itself) also need bi-directional capability, as well as system level communication with the two-way service control systems. The hardware standard exists. The software standards do not yet exist in a form that TiVo and other CE manufacturers will accept.



> 2) Is it just a simple matter of programming effort to enable the feature?


If the 2-way hardware is there, and there is a software model TiVo can (in the philosophical sense) write the code for, yes.



> 3) Is the problem legal/contractual rather than technical?


Primarily it is not so much technical at this time, but business interests. Cable wants full control of boxes offering 2-way.

CE manufacturers such as TiVo steadfastly refuse to give up that control to cable.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Cable providers are not required to sell boxes, just provide boxes with cablecards as the means of conditional access.


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

I thought the info said the new tivo HD was multi stream cable card ready?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

SNJpage1 said:


> I thought the info said the new tivo HD was multi stream cable card ready?


That is correct. The TiVo HD can use just one M-card to get digital streams to both tuners at the same time. That is out of the box functionality. Not many cable companies are supplying using M-card yet but it will grow and become the norm over time.

NOTE- M-card has nothing to do with bi-directional communication or cable Card 2.0 spec. They are just simply a way to use one card instead of two cards when two tuners are present like in most DVRs.


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

When I got my S3 my cable company Metrocast made me buy the cards at $100 each. They tried to get me to pay $150 each, but $50 was an install fee that I got them to wave.


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## dvr4me (Jul 10, 2007)

segaily said:


> When I got my S3 my cable company Metrocast made me buy the cards at $100 each. They tried to get me to pay $150 each, but $50 was an install fee that I got them to wave.


Holy carp! Leasing the cable cards from Charter here in the Minneapolis area costs $1.50 / card according to the price sheet and the truck roll fee is $19.95.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Unix_Beard said:


> You can MRV your S3? Fill me in.
> 
> THose of us that have multiple Tivos rely on MRV as much as the Tivo interface itself.


He said "It's a crippling factor" which implies affecting something that's already there....but it never has been....on the S3.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

segaily said:


> When I got my S3 my cable company Metrocast made me buy the cards at $100 each. They tried to get me to pay $150 each, but $50 was an install fee that I got them to wave.


anyone getting hit by this should just file an FCC complaint. Sure it may be rejected as that company is not covered by the rule but it lets the FCC know this is happening

link to FCC complaint web site
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints_general.html


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

GameJerk said:


> Currently there are no deals for the new TivoHD correct? I have 2 S2 boxes and have the MSD where I pay 12.95 for one and 6.95 for the other. I apy monthyl currently with no contract. Is there a way to continue paying these monthly fees w/no contract if I just buy it directly from Tivo or Best Buy for $299?? If there is a document that explains this already please inform me so i'm not asking questions that have been answered numerous times. Thank you.


The only way you can continue with the rates you have and pay monthly without a commitment is to buy a TivoHD box at retail (anywhere not from Tivo.com) and TRANSFER the service from one of your existing boxes.

This will render one of your S2 boxes inoperable, but the THD box will be month-to-month at the same rate you are paying now for the associated S2.

You can do this yourself online under manage my account and don't even need to call Tivo.


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## modnar (Oct 15, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> anyone getting hit by this should just file an FCC complaint. Sure it may be rejected as that company is not covered by the rule but it lets the FCC know this is happening
> 
> link to FCC complaint web site
> http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints_general.html


Does anyone have any idea where I can find the regulations regarding cable company's obligations with CableCards? (e.g. reasonable pricing, leasing, etc.)

I can't seem to find it on FCC's site.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

modnar said:


> Does anyone have any idea where I can find the regulations regarding cable company's obligations with CableCards? (e.g. reasonable pricing, leasing, etc.)
> 
> I can't seem to find it on FCC's site.


Try this: http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/plugandplaytv.html

Or www.dtv.gov

Reference links in the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CableCARD may also be helpful.


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