# Lost 3/16 "Recon"



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Sawyer! Cleaned up and sexy. 

Okay, so James Ford had the choice of criminal or cop and in his alternate life he went with cop. 

The Non Locke declaration "I'm the smoke thing".

James Ford breaking the mirror as looks into it seeing an alternate self (Sawyer) shades of Jack and the lighthouse.

"God's got nothing to do with it".


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Love that Sawyer is trying to play Flocke and Widmore against each other

but who's going to drive the sub?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

MikeMar said:


> Love that Sawyer is trying to play Flocke and Widmore against each other
> 
> but who's going to drive the sub?


I wondered that too.....maybe when they find out the pilot is still alive he can fly the plane.

And what is behind the locked door? I was thinking Desmond, just because we haven't seen much of him.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MikeMar said:


> Love that Sawyer is trying to play Flocke and Widmore against each other


And I love even more that he's doing it by telling them both the truth. The ultimate con!


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

MikeMar said:


> Love that Sawyer is trying to play Flocke and Widmore against each other
> 
> but who's going to drive the sub?


Yeah, but I'm afraid that's what's going to end up getting him killed, cause I've got a feeling they're on the same team.

And I'm sorry, but I'm completely over everyone crying over Kate.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Can't smoke guy just go over to the other island and kill them all before they put up the barriers?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

A lot of nods to the season one (and other seasons as well)- Kate hiding in the bamboo - it looked like same hiding spot as she used when the smoke monster attacked her and Jack and Charlie. Also the log that she and Sayid sat on looked like the same one that she and Sawyer sat on when she called him James Ford for the first time. And at the end, she and Sawyer at the fire reminded me of when they were out in the jungle together by the fire and drinking and playing ....what was it? some kind of truth or dare game.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Awesome..

Loved seeing Miles working with Sawyer again.

This episode once again points strongly towards the idea that the difference between the timelines is the lack of Jacob's visits to the candidates.

Sawyer still had his parents killed, but after, when he was about to write that angry letter to Mr Sawyer, his pen ran out of ink. He still was mad, but he hadn't crystalized a purpose quite the same way as the letter would have. He still wants to kill him, but subtle differences stemming from the lack of a letter caused him to become a cop instead of a criminal.

Loved the double con at the beginning where he was undercover.
Loved the con of Locke (probably).
Loved the con of Widmore (probably).
Maybe even loved the potential con of Freckles?

It'd make sense that Miles would be a cop, if he still had his "gift", but I still don't know if he has it or not. He (and Charlotte) were both still on the island as kids, I think, but who knows if Jacob existed to give them a gift.

I wonder if Jacob lives outside of time, so killing him made him not exist at various points in the past (that he hadn't gone back to yet)?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So the same incident happened to Sawyer in both universes. But in one, Jacob came to him after his parents' funeral, touched him and gave him a pencil. 

So it's Jacob that turned him into a con-man.

I don't think Charlotte showing up was for any purpose than people could say "Hey look, it's Charlotte."


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

betts4 said:


> A lot of nods to the season one (and other seasons as well)- Kate hiding in the bamboo - it looked like same hiding spot as she used when the smoke monster attacked her and Jack and Charlie. Also the log that she and Sayid sat on looked like the same one that she and Sawyer sat on when she called him James Ford for the first time. And at the end, she and Sawyer at the fire reminded me of when they were out in the jungle together by the fire and drinking and playing ....what was it? some kind of truth or dare game.


How about Sawyer watching Little House? He called it Little House to Kate in one of the early season episodes and she made fun of him for it.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> So the same incident happened to Sawyer in both universes. But in one, Jacob came to him after his parents' funeral, touched him and gave him a pencil.
> 
> So it's Jacob that turned him into a con-man.


I haven't thought this out, but were there others that he touched and it changed their 'destiny'. Dogan comes to mind.


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## KellyR66 (Sep 11, 2004)

James and Miles are apparently destined to star in the next buddy cop movie.

Everybody so far is still better off in the flash sideways with maybe the exception of Kate. I'm hoping that Mr. Ford can help her out of her legal mess so she can have a happy ending too. I'm still wondering about Charlie - he may be a junky but at least he is alive in the flash sideways.

Have we seen Sawyer breaking mirrors before? Maybe in season 1 when he first encounters who thinks is the real Sawyer?

What or who is locked in the sub? My guess is Desmond although I hope it's a bigger suprise than that. Maybe Waaaallt!

Fake Lock finally announcing that he is the smoke monster. Tell us something we didn't already know!

I'm still not sure what side Widmore is on. Fake Locke or Jacob? They could be the same entity.

Fake Locke talking about having a crazy mother?? Not much time yet to answer yet another Lost question.

I won't spoil but the previews for the next episode concern a topic that should provide some long awaited answers!


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I am not familiar with the movie Bullitt that Sawyer, I mean Det. James Ford mentions, does it's plot have any paralells or nods to the show?


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## DinoBambino (Nov 19, 2003)

Charlie's brother was in the police station looking for Charlie because he was arrested at the airport on a drug charge.


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## KellyR66 (Sep 11, 2004)

VegasVic said:


> Can't smoke guy just go over to the other island and kill them all before they put up the barriers?


Apparently there are many "rules" that haven't been explained to us. Throughout the seasons smokey has chased many people and some he killed and others he passed by. Smokey knows that Jacob's allies are currently on the beach yet he didn't touch them in the last episode. Also, we've never seen Smokey on the other island, have we?


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## KellyR66 (Sep 11, 2004)

DinoBambino said:


> Charlie's brother was in the police station looking for Charlie because he was arrested at the airport on a drug charge.


Always nice to see Liam. I'm wondering if there is anybody of interest that we know in the Wanted posters in the same scene.


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## KellyR66 (Sep 11, 2004)

betts4 said:


> I am not familiar with the movie Bullitt that Sawyer, I mean Det. James Ford mentions, does it's plot have any paralells or nods to the show?


I haven't seen the movie myself but the plot of the movie according to imdb.com is:



Spoiler



Frank Bullitt is selected by Chalmers, a politician with ambition, to guard a Mafia informant. Bullitt's friend is shot and the witness is left at death's door by two hit men who seem to know exactly where the the witness was hiding. Bullitt begins a search for both the killer and the leak, but he must keep the witness alive long enough to make sure the killers return. Chalmers has no interest in the injured policeman or the killers, only in the hearings that will catapult him into the public eye and wants to shut down Bullitt's investigation.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

I might be stating the obvious...just tying to piece things together.
But the sole purpose of Widmore helping real John Locke when he left the island was to get the Oceanic 6 back on a plane to go back to the island.. so then Widmore could find it and get there via submarine. Why not just ask Eloise where it was?
I guess he needed to go back to the island with a team of people and supplies. 

I feel like Widmore is on Jacob's side. He was ousted by Ben and not Jacob. The pylons seems to be a big hint or a misdirection.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

While I appreciate the irony of the Losties potentially flying off the island, it's the sub or nothing for me. Whoever tries to fly that plane may get "off" the island, but I fear will learn a serious lesson in aerodynamics. Be a shame to have to crashland on ANOTHER island. 

This episode was okay, but it felt rather drawn out. And I'm not a complainer about lack of answers, not by any means. It just felt like a positioning episode, to show where the pieces were lining up. None of the positions taken by anyone can be taken at face value - is Sawyer playing everyone, including Kate? Which side is Widmore on? (The exchange with Widmore was clumsy - Widmore never said what he was there for.) Is Claire really less nutty, or just setting up Kate? And Sayid ... Jesus Christ, HE'S the freakin' cyborg.

And we got our crying in - MIB got awfully sniffly talking to Kate. Is he playing Kate, and why? And HE'S got mommy issues! Ain't no cowboy, here.

Looking forward to next week though.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Delta13 said:


> (The exchange with Widmore was clumsy - Widmore never said what he was there for.)


I don't think it was clumsy...he didn't want to tell Sawyer, and Sawyer didn't care. It would have been clumsy if Widmore had gone all James Bond villain and made an unsolicited speech about his evil plan.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

KellyR66 said:


> Always nice to see Liam. I'm wondering if there is anybody of interest that we know in the Wanted posters in the same scene.


In SD I couldn't tell, but Sawyer had some interesting books on his dresser. "Watership Down" and I thought "Lancelot", with one in between that SD got me on again.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DinoBambino said:


> Charlie's brother was in the police station looking for Charlie because he was arrested at the airport on a drug charge.


Thanks for that. I was such a dope I couldn't put that together. Uh duh me. 

Liked the safe word: "LaFleur"


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think it was clumsy...he didn't want to tell Sawyer, and Sawyer didn't care. It would have been clumsy if Widmore had gone all James Bond villain and made an unsolicited speech about his evil plan.


Clumsy may not be the best word, but the way it was done meant Widmore didn't have to say a thing about his motives to us, the audience. Except smirk. What bothered me some is that Sawyer is a much better con man than to automatically think these guys are enemies without checking first. He assumed. And we know when THAT happens ...


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

I watch the episode live and was distracted when Claire attacked Kate. Was it me, or did it looked like it took Sayid about 10 seconds before he reacted by throwing Claire off of Kate? Why? Is it because he's becoming infected like Claire?


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## Ekims (Oct 18, 2002)

dtle said:


> I watch the episode live and was distracted when Claire attacked Kate. Was it me, or did it looked like it took Sayid about 10 seconds before he reacted by throwing Claire off of Kate? Why? Is it because he's becoming infected like Claire?


Sayid didn't throw Claire of Kate, Flock did... That was the point of the shot, to show that Sayid was indifferent about it.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

In the season 5 episode Some Like It Hoth, Jacob's bodyguard's grab Miles off the street and try to talk him out of going with Widmore's group on the freighter, telling him that he's playing for the wrong team. Unless there's some very serious misdirection going on in that scene, I don't see any way that Widmore is on Jacob's side in this war.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dtle said:


> I watch the episode live and was distracted when Claire attacked Kate. Was it me, or did it looked like it took Sayid about 10 seconds before he reacted by throwing Claire off of Kate? Why? Is it because he's becoming infected like Claire?


He didn't throw Claire off Kate. He just sat there. UnLocke threw Claire off Kate.

And, well, duh?

I thought it was interesting that Claire seemed to get herself back there at the end. Perhaps "infection" isn't permanent and/or total.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Sawyer saw the pylons, which helped the assumption that they're on opposite sides.

When I first watched the pilot, I hoped the show would have some of the cool aspects of Land of the Lost.. Glad to see we not only had a monster, bu pylons! (yeah, I should have made that realization in season 3).


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

So what does Widmore have in the locked room on the sub? I'm thinking he forced Desmond back to the Island. I keep remembering Ms Hawking saying the Island wasn't done with him yet. Perhaps that is how Widmore found the Island. By having Desmond on the sub, the Island "pulled" Desmond towards it.


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## KellyR66 (Sep 11, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I thought it was interesting that Claire seemed to get herself back there at the end. Perhaps "infection" isn't permanent and/or total.


I'm not sure what to make of the "infection". I think Claire is still infected. I'm wondering if she just infected Kate with the hug. I noticed that Flocke put his hand out for Kate earlier at the beach and Kate didn't take it. Now Kate hugs Claire. Could she now be be "infected"?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

KellyR66 said:


> I'm not sure what to make of the "infection". I think Claire is still infected. I'm wondering if she just infected Kate with the hug. I noticed that Flocke put his hand out for Kate earlier at the beach and Kate didn't take it. Now Kate hugs Claire. Could she now be be "infected"?


Kate didn't really hug Claire, it was more like Claire hugging Kate until finally Kate gave in. It took a few seconds. And I kept waiting for Claire to grab the gun.....


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

jking said:


> Yeah, but I'm afraid that's what's going to end up getting him killed, cause I've got a feeling they're on the same team.
> 
> And I'm sorry, but I'm completely over everyone crying over Kate.


Agreed. They can't kill off Kate fast enough, IMO.



brermike said:


> So what does Widmore have in the locked room on the sub? I'm thinking he forced Desmond back to the Island. I keep remembering Ms Hawking saying the Island wasn't done with him yet. Perhaps that is how Widmore found the Island. By having Desmond on the sub, the Island "pulled" Desmond towards it.


How about what's his name physicist instead of Desmond?


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

DUDE_NJX said:


> How about what's his name physicist instead of Desmond?


Faraday? He's dead (at least in the Island reality).


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Is he? In any case, WHidmore's got a better chance of finding the island with Faraday's help than Desmond's.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

brermike said:


> Faraday? He's dead (at least in the Island reality).


Yup. Has been for like 30 years.. but the highest date he ever experienced was 2005 (actually, no, 2007 ish - in a canoe).. But yeah I'd guess Desmond, Penny, Michael, Walt, or Hurley's work buddy that quit Mr Clucks with him before Hurley revealed he won the lottery.

(just kidding on the last one)

Oh.. Or Aaron or JiYon(sp).

Or Alvar Hanso, who Widmore wants to throw into the volcano.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Is he? In any case, WHidmore's got a better chance of finding the island with Faraday's help than Desmond's.


Trying to analyze your "Is he?" question there. Are you saying you don't remember his mother shooting him in the 70s in the monumental scene that proved to him in his dying moments that he couldn't change things, or are you actually suggesting that there was some ambiguity over that scene?

Faraday's dead, and his death overshadowed his entire life thanks to his mother.

Add Eloise to my list above, btw.


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## dagojr (Jan 9, 2004)

So im the only one that thinks that "the smoke thing" is Aaron?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

dagojr said:


> So im the only one that thinks that "the smoke thing" is Aaron?


Actually I said that out loud to my wife, and she promptly said "that doesn't make any sense".. A few stumbled sentences later about how maybe someday later he'll go back in time, yadda yadda, and I gave up.


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> ...I don't think Charlotte showing up was for any purpose than people could say "Hey look, it's Charlotte."


I have to agree. It was nice to see her, but I'm not sure why they put her in a Sawyer episode.

I was a little let down by this episode -- nothing really "interesting" to "chew on," IMO.

But it appears next week will make up for that in a big way as we finally get a "Richard" episode. Will/*can *that episode have a flash-sideways?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> So the same incident happened to Sawyer in both universes. But in one, Jacob came to him after his parents' funeral, touched him and gave him a pencil.


When Ford was making the calls, he asked to confirm that Anthony Cooper was in Alabama in 1976.

When they detonated the H-bomb, it was sometime in 1977. So I was thinking that anything that happened before that date in 1977 is unaffected. Things that happened after that are affected. (Maybe no Ewoks in ROTJ. )

But that doesn't work with Ben and his dad leaving, does it?



Delta13 said:


> In SD I couldn't tell, but Sawyer had some interesting books on his dresser. "Watership Down" and I thought "Lancelot", with one in between that SD got me on again.


The middle book was "A Wrinkle in Time," another book Sawyer read on the beach back in the day.

Random thoughts

1. Plenty of Easter eggs in this episode. Time on the alarm clock at the beginning was 8:42.

2. I totally fell for Sawyer being a con-man in X-world. I can't believe I didn't see him being a cop a mile away. (Josh Holloway should have been Crockett instead of Colin Farrell.)

3. Did they ever explain how Sawyer got out of the candidate cave? It was in the middle of the cliff and the ladders had broken.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

My recording cut off about 3 seconds before the end. What did Sawyer say at the very end? He's going to let them fight it out, and while they've got their hands full . . . ?


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## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

Subtle touches I liked:

--title of episode was "Recon" which can also mean "to con again"
--after Locke's talk with crying Kate, he offers a hand, she doesn't take it and gets up on her own.
--"LaFleur" was the safe word LOL!!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

KellyR66 said:


> James and Miles are apparently destined to star in the next buddy cop movie.


How much better would FlashForward be if it were Sawyer and Miles in the two main roles rather than Joseph Fiennes and John Cho?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> My recording cut off about 3 seconds before the end. What did Sawyer say at the very end? He's going to let them fight it out, and while they've got their hands full . . . ?


he and Kate are going to leave. She asks how they'll fly the plane, and he says they won't take the plane, they'll take the sub.

I'm sure anyone can just hop in and command a sub. Probably runs a lot like a Honda Accord.

ETA: Immediate preceding sentence is my personal snark.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

No "Previously On Lost ..." to start the show either. Too bad, it might have shown us Sawyer's flying cave dismount.

One funny part: Sawyer treks through the jungle on Hydra Isle, past cages and Dharma places and Kate's whole wardrobe, then looks up and wow! There's an airplane! Then we follow him and Zoe back to the canoe on the beach, and he's like 100 yards away from the plane and can see the whole thing. Talk about the long way home.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Kate didn't really hug Claire, it was more like Claire hugging Kate until finally Kate gave in. It took a few seconds. And I kept waiting for Claire to grab the gun.....


Or produce a knife! 

I agree that there's a lot of setting up of the pieces in this episode.
We'll have to see how they play out in the upcoming weeks.

And Kate can't get away from Detective Ford.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't think Charlotte showing up was for any purpose than people could say "Hey look, it's Charlotte."





T-Wolves said:


> I have to agree. It was nice to see her, but I'm not sure why they put her in a Sawyer episode.


Having Charlotte there helped place whereabouts. Not only does Miles know his father, but Charlotte works with him.



Delta13 said:


> In SD I couldn't tell, but Sawyer had some interesting books on his dresser. "Watership Down" and I thought "Lancelot", with one in between that SD got me on again.


Books he read on the island. Ford should have glasses though. 



mqpickles said:


> When Ford was making the calls, he asked to confirm that Anthony Cooper was in Alabama in 1976.


The whole Anthony Cooper situation does bring it all back to Locke though. If Anthony Cooper is good with Locke, does this mean the whole liver thing never happened? Obviously at one time he was a con man, since he did the con against Mr. & Mrs. Ford.



> 3. Did they ever explain how Sawyer got out of the candidate cave? It was in the middle of the cliff and the ladders had broken.


Well, Smokey can float around as well as pick people up. Offscreen, Smokey lifted Sawyer up and out. 



DevdogAZ said:


> How much better would FlashForward be if it were Sawyer and Miles in the two main roles rather than Joseph Fiennes and John Cho?


I agree, and I'd love to hear Josh Holloway say, "Because I was, LOADED, OKAY?!?!"

Greg


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## Allanon (Nov 2, 2005)

jking said:


> In the season 5 episode Some Like It Hoth, Jacob's bodyguard's grab Miles off the street and try to talk him out of going with Widmore's group on the freighter, telling him that he's playing for the wrong team. Unless there's some very serious misdirection going on in that scene, I don't see any way that Widmore is on Jacob's side in this war.


Widmore sent the freighter with the mercenaries to capture Ben, so maybe Jacob knew of UnLocke's plan to have Ben kill him and wanted Widmore to intervene. Because Widmore was leader of the Others at one time, he might have been able to see and talk to Jacob.

Also Jacob might have asked Widmore to come to the Island again to help prevent Unlocke from leaving.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Delta13 said:


> No "Previously On Lost ..." to start the show either.


Was that the first time ever?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Hopefully they're done with Charlotte. I feel about her the way some people apparently do about Kate. By the way, women snooping around in the dressers of men they've just met hours ago should expect to get thrown out at 3AM.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Oh, and do cops really have sex on stings? Kind of awkward with the microphones, and presumably video cameras. Not a bashful one, that Det. Ford.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

gchance said:


> Having Charlotte there helped place whereabouts. Not only does Miles know his father, but Charlotte works with him.


Woah, wait a second.
If that's the case and Miles knows his father Pierre Chang, why did the name plate on his desk say "Detective Miles Straume"?


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## Allanon (Nov 2, 2005)

JYoung said:


> Woah, wait a second.
> If that's the case and Miles knows his father Pierre Chang, why did the name plate on his desk say "Detective Miles Straume"?


Maybe his father died on the Island when drilling or when the bomb went off. We know the Island was still around because Ben was talking about it to his father in the flash-sideways.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm starting to winder if the flashsides are even actually happening. Because they really make no logical sense whatsoever...why do these people keep interacting under completely different circumstances? Really, what are the odds? It's almost like a VR world (not that it _is_, that's just what it's like) where they're being manipulated towards some end.

Whatever the deal is, there has to be an explanation for why these people end up together, even though their lives have taken radically different paths than in the original reality. If it's "just fate," that will be a profound disappointment on the shark-jumping level...which is why I think there's more to it than that.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> Actually I said that out loud to my wife, and she promptly said "that doesn't make any sense".. A few stumbled sentences later about how maybe someday later he'll go back in time, yadda yadda, and I gave up.


I think it makes perfect sense. We were never told MIB's name -- that was very deliberate, and the most logical conclusion is that the name wold be a huge giveaway. Now he says his mother was crazy.

However, making perfect sense is not enough. This is Lost. Plus I think Flocke was still trying to play Kate. I'm not even sure I believe it when he said he used to be a regular person with a mother.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm not sure another time travel event would work in terms of setting up the climax. It would probably be too much of a deus ex machina at this point...


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Hopefully they're done with Charlotte. I feel about her the way some people apparently do about Kate. By the way, women snooping around in the dressers of men they've just met hours ago should expect to get thrown out at 3AM.


If that was meant to look like someone, while looking for a tee-shirt, accidentally seeing something and getting curious, it was either bad acting, directing or editing; or all three. I got the distinct vibe like she had a purpose to her rifling.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm starting to winder if the flashsides are even actually happening. Because they really make no logical sense whatsoever...why do these people keep interacting under completely different circumstances? Really, what are the odds? It's almost like a VR world (not that it _is_, that's just what it's like) where they're being manipulated towards some end.
> 
> Whatever the deal is, there has to be an explanation for why these people end up together, even though their lives have taken radically different paths than in the original reality. If it's "just fate," that will be a profound disappointment on the shark-jumping level...which is why I think there's more to it than that.


The producers keep insisting that (1) it's not an alternate universe and (2) it will all come together in the end.

Let's see.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not sure another time travel event would work in terms of setting up the climax. It would probably be too much of a deus ex machina at this point...


It's a tool that's already been pulled out of the toolbox. Time travel (whether it's the standard type, the consciousness-only type, or a whole-friggin-Island-time-hopping kind) is somewhat integral to the story. Why would it be "deus ex machina" if Aaron (or anyone else) grows up, maybe goes to the Island (in a submarine, since it's at the bottom of the Ocean now) and gets thrown through some time rift to a couple of thousand years back?

I'm not suggesting it will be anything like that; I'm just wondering why you would find a time-traveling resolution so unpalatable at this juncture?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Does the main island have a name? We know the other island is Hydra Island.

I wonder if there are more firearms per capita on the Lost islands than there are anywhere else in the world.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> The producers keep insisting that (1) it's not an alternate universe and (2) it will all come together in the end.
> 
> Let's see.


I thought they just had an issue with the term "alternate", because it somehow implied one or the other; that the original timeline is gone and the new one is in play. I wouldn't take what they said as any indication that this is VR or anything different from what it appears to be.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> The producers keep insisting that (1) it's not an alternate universe and (2) it will all come together in the end.


Although on point 1, from what they've been saying they just don't know what "alternate universe" means. That is, they're not really saying it's not an alternate universe, they're just playing a bizarre semantic game.

(They think "alternate universes" means one is real and one is alternate, when in fact it means there are two equally real alternate universes...which seems to be what they're saying is happening here.)


wprager said:


> I'm not suggesting it will be anything like that; I'm just wondering why you would find a time-traveling resolution so unpalatable at this juncture?


Because there doesn't seem to be anything to set it up. The time-traveling that has already happened is done with...the problem was fixed.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Oh, and do cops really have sex on stings? Kind of awkward with the microphones, and presumably video cameras.


I wondered the same thing.

I also feel like I need to go back and rewatch the interaction between Det. Ford and Kate from the prior episode, where she is fleeing from the Marshall at the airport. In the scene where they are in the elevator together, I had thought that Sawyer saw the handcuffs, sized up the situation, and decided to let Kate flee rather than impede her escape. It would have been very easy for him to detain her. Since he's a cop, why wouldn't he have? Was it just that he didn't want to later have to answer any "what were you doing on a flight returning from Australia" questions? And so, to avoid those questions, he allowed her to flee?

Also, in hindsight, I'm not sure I follow what really happened at the Ajira site with Widmore's Zoe, and specifically with the dead bodies in the forest. I know what Zoe claimed happened, but since we know Zoe was lying what really did happen? Is it: There were Ajira survivors that stayed by the plane. When Widmore's crew disembarked from the sub they killed the Ajira survivors, dragged them into the forest, and then Zoe waited nearby until someone from the main island came to investigate so she could be "caught"? Or was it something else?


----------



## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

wprager said:


> I got the distinct vibe like she had a purpose to her rifling.


I also thought she was looking for something on purpose.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

danterner said:


> I wondered the same thing.
> 
> I also feel like I need to go back and rewatch the interaction between Det. Ford and Kate from the prior episode, where she is fleeing from the Marshall at the airport. In the scene where they are in the elevator together, I had thought that Sawyer saw the handcuffs, sized up the situation, and decided to let Kate flee rather than impede her escape. It would have been very easy for him to detain her. Since he's a cop, why wouldn't he have? Was it just that he didn't want to later have to answer any "what were you doing on a flight returning from Australia" questions? And so, to avoid those questions, he allowed her to flee?


Sort of like Spiderman after he first got his powers and before he decided to fight crime.



> Also, in hindsight, I'm not sure I follow what really happened at the Ajira site with Widmore's Zoe, and specifically with the dead bodies in the forest. I know what Zoe claimed happened, but since we know Zoe was lying what really did happen? Is it: There were Ajira survivors that stayed by the plane. When Widmore's crew disembarked from the sub they killed the Ajira survivors, dragged them into the forest, and then Zoe waited nearby until someone from the main island came to investigate so she could be "caught"? Or was it something else?


I believe that Widmore's crew did find the dead bodies in the heap like that. They were pretty ripe so I think they were there dead for a longer time because Widmore's crew just got there.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't think Charlotte showing up was for any purpose than people could say "Hey look, it's Charlotte."


I wondered last night that Charlotte was originally written to be Juliette, but Elizabeth Mitchelle could not find the time. Maybe Rebecca Madar was a last minute substitution.

Also, was the girl that Sawyer arrested in the beginning anyone we have seen before?


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

wprager said:


> If that was meant to look like someone, while looking for a tee-shirt, accidentally seeing something and getting curious, it was either bad acting, directing or editing; or all three. I got the distinct vibe like she had a purpose to her rifling.





loubob57 said:


> I also thought she was looking for something on purpose.


I got this feeling too. Like she had been sent there by Miles to find out what was up with his partner. Sex with Sawyer (or Det. Ford) was just a bonus.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Because there doesn't seem to be anything to set it up. The time-traveling that has already happened is done with...the problem was fixed.


But just like with answers to mysteries, when they fixed "the problem" they introduced a whole other set of problems. The universe is not done self-correcting yet.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> I believe that Widmore's crew did find the dead bodies in the heap like that. They were pretty ripe so I think they were there dead for a longer time because Widmore's crew just got there.


If so, that begs the question of how they died. Ajira didn't crash, right - it landed (roughly, from the looks of it) on the runway, so the other passengers wouldn't have died from impact. Were they killed by Ilana's team? I feel like I'm missing or misremembering something.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

danterner said:


> If so, that begs the question of how they died. Ajira didn't crash, right - it landed (roughly, from the looks of it) on the runway, so the other passengers wouldn't have died from impact. Were they killed by Ilana's team? I feel like I'm missing or misremembering something.


You're not missing or misremembering anything. How they died is still a mystery. I believe Widmore when he said that he didn't kill them.

I'm starting to think that Widmore is not on either side, Jacob or Locke's and wants the island for himself.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Allanon said:


> Maybe his father died on the Island when drilling or when the bomb went off. We know the Island was still around because Ben was talking about it to his father in the flash-sideways.


I'm starting to think there was no "bomb at the swan site" in the sideways timeline. The 2007 timeline with Chrisian showing Sun the picture says that yeah some of them were in the 70s in THAT timeline, but it'll be incredibly difficult to imagine how in the new timeline there would still be a bunch of them traveling back (strange enough) and then deciding to still blow up the center of an h-bomb (which, when we saw it, they did just to avoid their plane crashing - but these versions would have no such motivation).

Which again brings us back to "the bomb" not being the thing that splits the timelines.. I'm almost 100% convinced now that the bomb is a distraction. Maybe the bomb goes off in the sideways timeline, but above ground where the 50s Others left it (since Faraday didn't show up to tell them
to bury it). It wouldn't actually go off, though, until at least after Ben and Roger came to and left the island.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

There could be all sorts of reasons why his last name is Straum and not Chang starting with (1) a writer's mistake; (2) his parent's got divorced when he was young and he took his mother's maiden name but then later reconnected with his father.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

Charlotte looked better than she ever did on the island. She is one of those women that do look better with makeup.

I noticed the actor that headed the group that pointed guns at Sawyer was one of the guys from the Altel cellphone commercials, the ones with 5 different dorks representing the major cell phone companies. I know I have seen him in other commericals too.

I think we are being told that Sawyer will end up being a good guy and saving everyone. He is already trying to work out deals to save all the people he can. I think he is trying to be good in his own way.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm starting to winder if the flashsides are even actually happening. Because they really make no logical sense whatsoever...why do these people keep interacting under completely different circumstances? Really, what are the odds?


I guess I don't understand why you feel this way. Consider if we'd never seen LOST for the last 5 years and were only watching the "flash sideways" plots. Then these people would be showing up and interacting and we'd never think twice about it: they're just random people, showing up randomly. Why do there have to be "odds"? it's only because we know about the Island and the "other" plots that we understand that there are big coincidences here. The only pure coincidence in the "flash sideways" plots so far that I recall is Det. Ford chasing down Kate at the end of this ep. after seeing her at the airport.


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> Also, was the girl that Sawyer arrested in the beginning anyone we have seen before?


Jodi Lyn O'Keefe has never been on Lost before, according to IMDB.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005281/


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## AndreZero (Feb 11, 2010)

TriBruin said:


> Also, was the girl that Sawyer arrested in the beginning anyone we have seen before?


I believe she was the woman who Sawyer taught to be a conwoman. Also the woman that he had Kate go back and support (financially) when she got off the island.


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

AndreZero said:


> I believe she was the woman who Sawyer taught to be a conwoman. Also the woman that he had Kate go back and support (financially) when she got off the island.


Actually that was Cassidy, played by Kim Dickens.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0225332/

The character in last night's episode was Ava, not Cassidy.

ETA: Just realized how weird that is - Ava and Cassidy.


----------



## Jeffho (Apr 8, 2004)

Does anyone think there is any significance when Saywer apologized to Flocke when he called him out in front of people? Flocke hesitated and said that "I forgive you". They kind of dwelled on that little bit. Didn't Smokey want Eko to apologize or ask for forgiveness before he killed him?

Maybe Smokey is looking for redeeming qualities in people or something along those lines.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm starting to winder if the flashsides are even actually happening. Because they really make no logical sense whatsoever...why do these people keep interacting under completely different circumstances? Really, what are the odds? It's almost like a VR world (not that it _is_, that's just what it's like) where they're being manipulated towards some end.
> 
> Whatever the deal is, there has to be an explanation for why these people end up together, even though their lives have taken radically different paths than in the original reality. If it's "just fate," that will be a profound disappointment on the shark-jumping level...which is why I think there's more to it than that.


I bet I'm wrong, but I have been thinking the same thing. I wonder if the writers are giving us just a "what if Jacob never touched them" scenario. It might have never happened, but they want to give us some insight in how their lives MIGHT have turned out if they had never met Jacob. In this scenario, the two realities will never meet.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Magister said:


> I noticed the actor that headed the group that pointed guns at Sawyer was one of the guys from the Altel cellphone commercials, the ones with 5 different dorks representing the major cell phone companies. I know I have seen him in other commericals too.


I recognized him as a serial killer from Criminal Minds.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The time-traveling that has already happened is done with...the problem was fixed.


It was? Then why exactly did they time travel back to 2007 when their original starting point for time traveling was either late 2004 or early 2005 (never kept track of the exact days that passed). I grant you that it appeared fixed when Locke set the donkey wheel right, but that was before the most recent jump back to 2007 (it was also before Jack and company time traveled to 1977). I doubt we'll be seeing any more time jumping to the extent we did last season, but I don't know that it's fair to say, definitively, that the problem is fixed. I also doubt we'll get any explanation as to why the time traveling continued after the wheel was dislodged (nor do I care if we get one).



Magister said:


> I noticed the actor that headed the group that pointed guns at Sawyer was one of the guys from the Altel cellphone commercials, the ones with 5 different dorks representing the major cell phone companies. I know I have seen him in other commericals too.


Was that the same dude who used to be on Charles in Charge (at least I think that's where he was from). I wish that guy the best of luck and certainly don't wish him trouble in finding work, but I was totally distracted by his presence.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> I'm starting to think there was no "bomb at the swan site" in the sideways timeline. The 2007 timeline with Chrisian showing Sun the picture says that yeah some of them were in the 70s in THAT timeline, but it'll be incredibly difficult to imagine how in the new timeline there would still be a bunch of them traveling back (strange enough) and then deciding to still blow up the center of an h-bomb (which, when we saw it, they did just to avoid their plane crashing - but these versions would have no such motivation).
> 
> Which again brings us back to "the bomb" not being the thing that splits the timelines.. I'm almost 100% convinced now that the bomb is a distraction. Maybe the bomb goes off in the sideways timeline, but above ground where the 50s Others left it (since Faraday didn't show up to tell them
> to bury it). It wouldn't actually go off, though, until at least after Ben and Roger came to and left the island.


I don't know why you're reaching for some more complicated reason that what is. There WAS no sideways timeline until the bomb went off, creating the two timelines.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

madscientist said:


> I guess I don't understand why you feel this way. Consider if we'd never seen LOST for the last 5 years and were only watching the "flash sideways" plots. Then these people would be showing up and interacting and we'd never think twice about it: they're just random people, showing up randomly. Why do there have to be "odds"? it's only because we know about the Island and the "other" plots that we understand that there are big coincidences here. The only pure coincidence in the "flash sideways" plots so far that I recall is Det. Ford chasing down Kate at the end of this ep. after seeing her at the airport.


Agreed. In the flashbacks we saw that the lives of the characters were kind of connected, albeit on a much more limited basis. Jack's Dad crossed paths with Sawyer and Anna Lucia, Jack had the opportunity to save Shannon's Dad in the car crash, Locke worked for Hurley's box company, Jack and Desmond had previously met, etc. Back then it was cool. I don't see why this is any different, or less believable. Besides, how interesting would the flash sideways really be if the characters we know never interacted with each other?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Was that the first time ever?


Well there was the pilot episode of course.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Hopefully they're done with Charlotte. I feel about her the way some people apparently do about Kate. By the way, women snooping around in the dressers of men they've just met hours ago should expect to get thrown out at 3AM.


Completely agree.

That really didn't work out the way I thought it would in real life. She knows she was snooping, and was in the wrong. She then goes home and ruminates on how hot Sawyer is and he's also got a wounded little boy thing going on. That makes him doubly attractive.

He shows up at her door, and what really should have happened was she apologizes for snooping, invites him in, tries to heal his inner child.


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

Magister said:


> Charlotte looked better than she ever did on the island. She is one of those women that do look better with makeup.
> 
> *I noticed the actor that headed the group that pointed guns at Sawyer was one of the guys from the Altel cellphone commercials, the ones with 5 different dorks representing the major cell phone companies. I know I have seen him in other commericals too.*
> 
> I think we are being told that Sawyer will end up being a good guy and saving everyone. He is already trying to work out deals to save all the people he can. I think he is trying to be good in his own way.


Yeah he's in a few commercials but we also saw him play a bad guy on *The Mentalist *last season.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Couple random points.

First, I love how open Fake Locke is. He might be the bad guy, be he differs from Jacob in that he seems to trust people with information. He sort of misled Sawyer about the intention of his recon, but in general, he shoots straight. I think the writers are doing an excellent job staying away from the simple, clear-cut, black vs white / good vs bad plot traps. 

Second, Fake Lockes' mom. I have a feeling that this is going to be HUGE. When he was telling the story, I got the sense that he was talking about a very famous woman - someone we would know by name, either a mythical woman or a historical woman. Keep an eye on this.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I think Widmore wants Flocke's job, if that's at all still possible Which means both of them are against Jacob but also against each other.

I think it's clear now that Jacob and Flocke are brothers, given the setup Flocke had about his mother. Flocke is also clearly bat#$&#37;^ crazy as well.. and it seems like Kate and Sawyer are perfectly clued into it...


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## Ladd Morse (Feb 21, 2002)

How did Widmore find the island, since it had moved last season?


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Peter000 said:


> I don't know why you're reaching for some more complicated reason that what is. There WAS no sideways timeline until the bomb went off, creating the two timelines.


Wrong. If this is true then Ben wouldn't exist in the alternate timeline, since him and his dad were on the island when the bomb went off. Same with Chang, who Miles mentioned last night. I think the two things are not connected--the alternate timeline is showing us what would have happened to their lives if Jacob hadn't touched them, while the island is at the bottom of the ocean for a totally unrelated reason--something that occured at some point after Dharmaville was established in the mid-70's. It could still be the bomb just detonated in a different way, but it could also be something else.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

wprager said:


> If that was meant to look like someone, while looking for a tee-shirt, accidentally seeing something and getting curious, it was either bad acting, directing or editing; or all three. I got the distinct vibe like she had a purpose to her rifling.


Lesson one from recon: if you don't like people looking through your things, don't take an archeologist home.

Maybe that's why they chose Charlotte for this story. They needed someone to find the notebook. Juliet or Libby wouldn't have rifled through the drawer like that. But for Charlotte digging through stuff is second nature.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Allanon said:


> Maybe his father died on the Island when drilling or when the bomb went off. We know the Island was still around because Ben was talking about it to his father in the flash-sideways.


Then who was the man Miles was referring to as his father when he was talking up Charlotte to Detective Ford?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Wrong. If this is true then Ben wouldn't exist in the alternate timeline, since him and his dad were on the island when the bomb went off.


Except a lot of things...important things...that happened before the bomb went off were the result of things that happened after the bomb went off (due to the time-traveling Losties).

The bomb going off broke the universe. Now, they have to fix it.


mqpickles said:


> Maybe that's why they chose Charlotte for this story. They needed someone to find the notebook. Juliet or Libby wouldn't have rifled through the drawer like that. But for Charlotte digging through stuff is second nature.


Also, she's a friend of Miles' in the New World, and a colleague of his in the Old World. These kinds of relationships persist across worlds, for reasons that we haven't seen yet (but that I'm sure exist).


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Delta13 said:


> What bothered me some is that Sawyer is a much better con man than to automatically think these guys are enemies without checking first. He assumed. And we know when THAT happens ...


Since Sawyer was planning on telling Flocke the truth, it didn't matter. If Flocke and Widmore were allies, and this was a test of Sawyer's loyalty, then telling Flocke everything would have allowed him to pass.



lpamelaa said:


> --title of episode was "Recon" which can also mean "to con again"


Nice catch. I can't believe I totally missed this. It could also mean "to con back", as in to con in response to another con.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

I paused the TiVo to laugh when Sawyer's mark called him "dimples."

Jacob and Flock are god-like figures. Can there really be a third side headed by Widmore? He's just some guy.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

jking said:


> Agreed. In the flashbacks we saw that the lives of the characters were kind of connected, albeit on a much more limited basis. Jack's Dad crossed paths with Sawyer and Anna Lucia, Jack had the opportunity to save Shannon's Dad in the car crash, Locke worked for Hurley's box company, Jack and Desmond had previously met, etc. Back then it was cool. I don't see why this is any different, or less believable. Besides, how interesting would the flash sideways really be if the characters we know never interacted with each other?


It's not any different. It seems a little more pronounced maybe, but we did think it was neat back in season one and two when Hurley was seen on the tv of the man Jin was sent to kill and such.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> I wondered last night that Charlotte was originally written to be Juliette, but Elizabeth Mitchelle could not find the time. Maybe Rebecca Madar was a last minute substitution.
> 
> Also, was the girl that Sawyer arrested in the beginning anyone we have seen before?


I TOTALLY expected Juliette instead of Charlotte.

As to the sub vs. plane debate. I'd think, although challenging, it would've been somewhat easier to control a sub than try to make a half-crashed, stuck in the trees plane take off in the middle of a jungle.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

BTW, Jodi (Ava) looked a LOT better than she did on Prison Break. She must've lost a lot of weight, I could barely recognize her.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I don't think Charlotte was purposely snooping; she asked Sawyer - er, I mean Ford - for a T-shirt and he said "Help yourself; top drawer on the right". She looks in the top drawer, but does not find a T-shirt and in looking for one finds the Sawyer folder. If she was snooping, that was an incredible Jedi-mind-trick she pulled there to get Ford to tell her exactly where to look. 

I personally wondered why James would tell her to "Help yourself" to the the drawer where he's keeping his super-secret Sawyer file... and why would you keep that in a dresser drawer, anyway...?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Alfer said:


> Yeah he's in a few commercials but we also saw him play a bad guy on *The Mentalist *last season.


Ah, I was thinking of this guy on Criminal Minds....but I can't find his name.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> I don't think Charlotte was purposely snooping; she asked Sawyer - er, I mean Ford - for a T-shirt and he said "Help yourself; top drawer on the right". She looks in the top drawer, but does not find a T-shirt and in looking for one finds the Sawyer folder. If she was snooping, that was an incredible Jedi-mind-trick she pulled there to get Ford to tell her exactly where to look.
> 
> I personally wondered why James would tell her to "Help yourself" to the the drawer where he's keeping his super-secret Sawyer file... and why would you keep that in a dresser drawer, anyway...?


But she was snooping in the top drawer on the left. Right? I mean correct?


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> I don't think Charlotte was purposely snooping; she asked Sawyer - er, I mean Ford - for a T-shirt and he said "Help yourself; top drawer on the right". She looks in the top drawer, but does not find a T-shirt and in looking for one finds the Sawyer folder. If she was snooping, that was an incredible Jedi-mind-trick she pulled there to get Ford to tell her exactly where to look.
> 
> I personally wondered why James would tell her to "Help yourself" to the the drawer where he's keeping his super-secret Sawyer file... and why would you keep that in a dresser drawer, anyway...?


So he's got a reason to kick her out. Duh.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Was that the first time ever?


I learned a long time ago, any question like that you might have is really online. No, it's not the first time. Here's a list of episodes that don't have it. 



JYoung said:


> Woah, wait a second.
> If that's the case and Miles knows his father Pierre Chang, why did the name plate on his desk say "Detective Miles Straume"?





Turtleboy said:


> There could be all sorts of reasons why his last name is Straum and not Chang starting with (1) a writer's mistake; (2) his parent's got divorced when he was young and he took his mother's maiden name but then later reconnected with his father.





JYoung said:


> Then who was the man Miles was referring to as his father when he was talking up Charlotte to Detective Ford?


I don't think it really matters all that much, the most likely answer is the reason his nametag says MILES STRAUME is the same reason Ethan Rom's last name is really Goodspeed.



wprager said:


> If that was meant to look like someone, while looking for a tee-shirt, accidentally seeing something and getting curious, it was either bad acting, directing or editing; or all three. I got the distinct vibe like she had a purpose to her rifling.





loubob57 said:


> I also thought she was looking for something on purpose.





betts4 said:


> I got this feeling too. Like she had been sent there by Miles to find out what was up with his partner. Sex with Sawyer (or Det. Ford) was just a bonus.


I felt the same way, she was driven in a way you aren't when looking for a simple t-shirt. The way she was turning over the contents of the drawer, reaching UNDERNEATH other clothes rather than just flipping them around. It could also have been overacting on the actress's part.



Magister said:


> Charlotte looked better than she ever did on the island. She is one of those women that do look better with makeup.


I strongly disagree with this one, she was overly made up here, "dolled up". Also, her back was icky. 



betts4 said:


> I recognized him as a serial killer from Criminal Minds.





3D said:


> Was that the same dude who used to be on Charles in Charge (at least I think that's where he was from). I wish that guy the best of luck and certainly don't wish him trouble in finding work, but I was totally distracted by his presence.





Alfer said:


> Yeah he's in a few commercials but we also saw him play a bad guy on *The Mentalist *last season.


I recognized him from The Mentalist and have seen him a few times since. I think this is "his year" in terms of being a character actor, to the point where it's distracting, as mentioned above. That's usually the point where they'll get a co-starring role in a sitcom or a recurring part in a drama.

As an aside, I really enjoy "following" a character actor as he starts becoming more well known, going from "hey I know him" to recognizing his name and finally seeing him in a starring role. It's good to see people whose careers are on the rise.

Greg


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> But she was snooping in the top drawer on the left. Right? I mean correct?


I don't think looking for what you said you needed, in the place you were told it was, constitutes "snooping".

So you're saying that what you would expect her to do in that situation, when told to "help herself" to a drawer, that when she didn't see a t-shirt precisely where he said it would be, that she should have gone no further and that looking deeper in the drawer for a t-shirt would be an invasion of privacy?

I don't think that's a reasonable expectation - and if someone is that sensitive about their privacy, once again, why tell someone to "help themselves" to the drawer where your most personal thing is kept? Unless he was trying to lead her to it, but I did not get that impression based on how he acted about the whole thing when talking to Miles.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

betts4 said:


> Ah, I was thinking of this guy on Criminal Minds....but I can't find his name.





3D said:


> Was that the same dude who used to be on Charles in Charge (at least I think that's where he was from). I wish that guy the best of luck and certainly don't wish him trouble in finding work, but I was totally distracted by his presence.


I got the crappy old sitcom wrong, That guy was Chip on Kate and Allie. Don't see anything about Criminal Minds.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0462735/


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I think she was told top drawer on the right.

She then went to the top drawer on the left, and started snooping. I don't know if she tried the top drawer on the right or not. But there certainly aren't any T-shirts in a folder. So opening that folder was most definitely snooping. 


She certainly wanted to be snooping, but I wasn't sure if it's because she's just a curious snoopy type or she had a mission/agenda.

Also, even Sawyer probably isn't thinking all that straight 20 seconds after boinking a hot redhead.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> I think she was told top drawer on the right.


She was also told to help herself.



> Also, even Sawyer probably isn't thinking all that straight 20 seconds after boinking a hot redhead.


Yeah, you're probably right. I'm sure he was all discombobulated after bedding Charlotte because he never sleeps with beautiful women - except for at work, as an undercover cop; so I see how Charlotte would make his knees knock...


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## HoosierFan (May 8, 2001)

betts4 said:


> Ah, I was thinking of this guy on Criminal Minds....but I can't find his name.


I recognized him as Chip from Kate & Allie

Edited: Just realized I made my first Smeek


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> She certainly wanted to be snooping, but I wasn't sure if it's because she's just a curious snoopy type or she had a mission/agenda.


I think she might have been there to snoop for Miles.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> She certainly wanted to be snooping, but I wasn't sure if it's because she's just a curious snoopy type or she had a mission/agenda.


I don't know if there's enough time left in the series for an agenda on her part to develop. More likely, if anything, it was along the lines of going through someone's medicine cabinet. I do agree with others' comments that she really didn't have a legitimate reason to be angry with him. Yes, he invited her to look in the drawer... for a shirt. If I am invited to look in a drawer for a shirt, and I see something that is most definitely not what I am looking for, I don't go rifling through it. I put it back in its place and continue looking.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

aindik said:


> I think she might have been there to snoop for Miles.


And yet she doesn't seem to have told Miles what she found...


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

aindik said:


> I think she might have been there to snoop for Miles.


Right. Who would be better to dig for skeletons in his closet than an archeologist?


----------



## goMO (Dec 29, 2004)

I thought Charlotte looked terrible. Like she lost way too much weight. I liked her on the island much better.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jking said:


> If I am invited to look in a drawer for a shirt, and I see something that is most definitely not what I am looking for, I don't go rifling through it. I put it back in its place and continue looking.


Agreed. But I also know that not everyone (particularly a woman I've just slept with for the first time, left alone in my bedroom) is likely to behave precisely as I would in a similar situation.

If I told someone to look for something in my house and they saw something I did not want them to see while looking in the place I told them to, I would have to blame myself.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> And yet she doesn't seem to have told Miles what she found...


Maybe that's why he decided to go back to her - she didn't tell Miles..


----------



## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

HoosierFan said:


> I recognized him as Chip from Kate & Allie
> 
> Edited: Just realized I made my first Smeek


When I saw him I thought, "Did he bring the Fiber One Cereal?"


----------



## ireland967 (Feb 27, 2003)

3D said:


> I got the crappy old sitcom wrong, That guy was Chip on Kate and Allie. Don't see anything about Criminal Minds.
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0462735/


I recognized him as Schillinger's son from HBO's Oz. Zoe was played by Sheila Kelley, also a familar character actor (video dating girl from the movie Singles is where I remember her most).


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> She was also told to help herself.


...to a T-shirt, not a folder with documents inside.


----------



## KellyR66 (Sep 11, 2004)

betts4 said:


> Kate didn't really hug Claire, it was more like Claire hugging Kate until finally Kate gave in. It took a few seconds. And I kept waiting for Claire to grab the gun.....


You described it better than me. I thought maybe the act of giving in to hug and almost hugging back could lead to being infected.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> How much better would FlashForward be if it were Sawyer and Miles in the two main roles rather than Joseph Fiennes and John Cho?


Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing (due to all the FF promos no doubt)!

ABC should do a spin-off of the "Lost" sideways reality when the show is over... "Detective James Ford".


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> ...to a T-shirt, not a folder with documents inside.


I agree that she shouldn't have looked at the folder, however I think she came upon it innocently and had no agenda beyond looking for a t-shirt.

I also think James completely over-reacted to the situation.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing (due to all the FF promos no doubt)!


I really am getting tired of the promos. I'm mostly just tired of hearing the, "There's gonna be another blackout" line. And watch, once the new episode airs, come to find out, that line won't be given for another 4 episodes, so we'll have to hear it in even MORE promos.

Greg


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> I don't know why you're reaching for some more complicated reason that what is. There WAS no sideways timeline until the bomb went off, creating the two timelines.


As was said before, wrong. If what you said were true, we'd have two timelines that were identical up until the bomb went off, and then they'd diverge, with one having the bomb go off (somehow causing 815 not to crash, possibly how Faraday planned, possibly not) and the island sinking at some point, and another where the bomb didn't go off, 815 crashes, and survivors are there to go back in time.

Ok, but that already doesn't make sense. In the first of those two possible timelines, who set off the bomb?

It was Jack in the 815-doesn't-crash timeline.. Jack was only there because 815 crashed. 815 crashed, he went back to the 70s, and brought a bomb to the swan site. In THAT timeline, where 815 crashed, Jack was on the island, got off, wanted to go back, got onto 316, and was able to jump to the 70s.

If there was a timeline *caused by the bomb going off* (which I argue doesn't exist - that's not what the sideways timeline is), then that would mean that Jack had been there before the split to drop the bomb into the hole. The bomb would go off, at some point the island would sink, 815 wouldn't crash, and Jack would have no way to ever go back in time to get to the 70s to bring the bomb to the site. That doesn't work. Doesn't work.

The bomb isn't what caused anything to break or split or anything.

I think in the 815-crashes timeline, Jack arrives in the 70s, brings the bomb to the Swan hatch, drops it in, Juliette blows it up, that causes a problem severe enough that when they finish the hatch they repurpose it as a containment area and have the protocol of entering the code every 108 minutes, 815 crashes, Jack leaves the island on the copter + Penny's freighter, is one of the O6, comes back to the island on 316, and gets sent back to the 70s. Proceed to the beginning of this paragraph.

That's entirely self consistent and equalized.. The system has reached equilibrium and is self contained. There's still an "Incident" that Pierre can talk about in the orientation hatch, he still hurt his arm, etc.

I think the second timeline was caused by something that wasn't stuck in the same stuck situation as most of the people. Faraday TRIED REALLY HARD to change things, and he realized in his last few seconds of life that he failed - he'd ALWAYS done those things. I don't think regular people can actually change anything.

If there was a change, I think it was either:
1) Jacob's death, somehow affecting things Jacob did throughout his entire life instead of just after his death (they'd have to convince me of this one)
2) Jacob or Smokey or Desmond (or Minkowski or Charlotte) exist at least partially out of time, and can actually change things, in a way that Faraday couldn't, and one of them caused the timeline to change to the sideways timeline based on visions of the future.
3) The sideways timeline came "first", and something in it will cause the timeline we've been watching for 5 seasons to happen instead.

Remember.. We saw Desmond actually see things that he then prevented.. He (and we!) saw a detailed vision of Charlie dying multiple times (remember the arrow through Charlie's neck?), and he prevented that, pushing Charlie's death off long enough that Charlie was able to allow the freighter people to arrive on the island, which allowed Faraday to arrive and jump back to the 50s, which gave the 50s Others the knowledge that burying the H bomb in concrete would keep people from getting irradiated.

Now, if the two universes are flipflopping.. one exists then instantaneously the next exists, then the first exists (because one causes the other, then the other causes the first), then that'll be cool.. but we're nowhere close to having that description yet. So there's no way we should be thinking that it's obvious and simple that the bomb just created a new timeline. Yeah, that's the trick the writers wanted everyone to pay attention to so they can make it through the season without us piecing it all together too soon, but that's not it.

[Edit: changed radiated to irradiated]


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

ireland967 said:


> I recognized him as Schillinger's son from HBO's Oz. Zoe was played by Sheila Kelley, also a familar character actor (video dating girl from the movie Singles is where I remember her most).


I forgot he was on OZ. It was driving me crazy that I thought I had also seen him grown up on another show, but couldn't figure out what it was. Obviously, I did not look too closely at my own imdb link. Sheila Kelley was also on L.A. Law.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Peter000 said:


> I don't know why you're reaching for some more complicated reason that what is. There WAS no sideways timeline until the bomb went off, creating the two timelines.


I was simply gonna say that I don't think the bomb caused anything, and I don't think the timelines are split. I think the sideways is a reset that is a result of what's going to happen on the Island. However, I think jkeegan spelled it out pretty well.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Sawyer: Why did you kill all those people in the temple
fLocke: They think they need to protect the island from me, but all I want to do is leave. So it's kill or be killed.

If Sawyer were a real person, instead of a Lost character who, like every Lost character, is purposefully written not to ask follow-up questions, he would have asked fLocke how he got from their protecting the island from him to their trying to kill him.

Do we have any evidence that anyone from the temple is trying to kill the Smoke Monster? Dogen sent Sayid to stab him with a dagger, but I think that was more a suicide mission for Sayid than an actual attempt to kill the Smoke Monster.

And fLocke tells Sawyer that fLocke is the Smoke Monster, and Sawyer doesn't bat an eye.

fLocke tells Kate he's "not a dead man," and Kate doesn't even ask him WTF he's talking about. He says "before I looked like this, I had a mother," and Kate doesn't even ask him who or what he is.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> 3) The sideways timeline came "first", and something in it will cause the timeline we've been watching for 5 seasons to happen instead.
> 
> ...
> 
> Now, if the two universes are flipflopping.. one exists then instantaneously the next exists, then the first exists (because one causes the other, then the other causes the first), then that'll be cool.. but we're nowhere close to having that description yet.


This is what my money is still on. You're describing the "mobius loop" theory that I mentioned a bit ago, only you're doing it with more eloquence. I agree we're not there yet, but I still think that's the direction we're headed. I think it would provide a satisfying and cool yet sufficiently head-scratching resolution to the show. It would be a series ending that would demonstrate, as the loop is closed, that the writers did in fact have everything (well, the big things) mapped out right from the start, and it would be a series ending that hasn't been done before in other shows. At least, not that I can recall.

Well, one other show:



Spoiler



Ron Moore's BSG, with the "All this has happened before, and it will all happen again" repeating-history motif, but that didn't involve separate realities and time travel so not really the same thing at all.


In the above show, it wasn't really a mobius loop because there was no "flip" in the loop. In LOST, we have the flip. We have the two separate realities, one on each side, with TPTB stressing that the sideways world is not an "alternate" world because, in fact, it is not - they are one and the same. It's just the story-telling equivalent of a mobius loop - it appears there are two realities, but really because of some literary twist yet to come, they are one and the same. One endlessly leads into the other. It's like an ouroboros or (to use the symbolism LOST favors) a bagua (like Dharma's emblem -- see the essay I linked to below, for more on that), or like a phoenix rising from its own ashes (witness Jacob dying, falling into the flames, and turning to ash).

I'm sure it's just coincidence, but I did find an interesting quote from Javi Grillo-Marxuach not long ago. (He used to be one of TPTB, in earlier seasons). Speaking about the show, he said:



> "We're going to keep you in a Mobius loop of confusion"


 (or something along those lines - I need to locate the original quote). I'm not suggesting he be taken literally or necessarily that he was trying to drop a clue, but I just found it interesting.

There's a very interesting essay I found on-line regarding LOST and time. It was written back in 2006, but the events of recent seasons I think lend weight to the writer's thoughts. It's worth reading. It's called Flashbacks, Memory, and Non-Linear Time. It, too, makes mention of mobius loops, which is how I happened across it. However, it provides a comprehensive and compelling (to me) analysis of the treatment of time on LOST.

Finally, on this subject, I came across a reviewer (J. Woods - he used to write about Lost on the Powell's Books blog) making a technical comment regarding the way the opening scene of the pilot episode was shot, and how it could be seen as a comment on narrative perspective and using the camera as cinematic narrator. The opening scene of the series was shot in the visual equivalent of a mobius loop, according to him. He said:



> The camera/narrator of Lost even manipulates audience perspective without offering any clear signals that it is doing so. Consider the loop shot in the pilot episode, when Jack first makes it out on the beach: Jack is standing with his back to the jungle with the camera starts on his left. The shot then sweeps into his perspective and off to the left, showing the beach. But as the the shot comes back around, Jack then appears on the other side of the shot, and the camera is now on his right. The camera was moving away from Jack and to the left; the only way for the camera to sweep so far around to end up on Jack's right side is if it swept behind him and into the jungle. But that's not what happens -- the perspective is always in front of Jack and on the beach. Something strange is happening here, as the camera tracks a Möbius strip pattern that displaces the audience, character and setting from their established relationships to each other. The camera/narrator starts with the audience in a third-person point of view, witnessing Jack, then shifts into a first-person point of view, but when it slips back into third-person, the perspective is the mirror-image of where it began. This is a very different take on multiple perspectives.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> I agree that she shouldn't have looked at the folder, however I think she came upon it innocently and had no agenda beyond looking for a t-shirt.
> 
> I also think James completely over-reacted to the situation.


Yeah, I agree he overreacted. But that was the point of the scene, to show how important the Sawyer thing still is to him, even in this timeline. Even though he's a cop now and not a criminal, he's still eaten up by what happened to him as a kid and he acted irrationally when she got too close.


----------



## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

OK, after a night of sleep, maybe there were some things in this episode to "chew on," after all. 



VegasVic said:


> Can't smoke guy just go over to the other island and kill them all before they put up the barriers?


Maybe the barriers are to keep Smokey *in*, not out? Maybe Widmore's goal is to prevent Smokey from leaving the Island?



dagojr said:


> So im the only one that thinks that "the smoke thing" is Aaron?


Interesting idea. Claire is a crazy mother. Any other "crazy" women on the show who could be _candidates_? Libby? Rousseau?



gchance said:


> ...The whole Anthony Cooper situation does bring it all back to Locke though. If Anthony Cooper is good with Locke, does this mean the whole liver thing never happened? Obviously at one time he was a con man, since he did the con against Mr. & Mrs. Ford. ...


What if Anthony Cooper (which is most likely an alias) is somebody else in the flash-sideways? What if he is....Jacob? Or Widmore? Or even...Richard?



Turtleboy said:


> ...I believe that Widmore's crew did find the dead bodies in the heap like that. They were pretty ripe so I think they were there dead for a longer time because Widmore's crew just got there.


My guess would be that Smokey took them out. Not sure why.



Magister said:


> Charlotte looked better than she ever did on the island. She is one of those women that do look better with makeup....


I mildly disagree -- I liked Charlotte better in jeans and that blue shirt. But she still looked great in makeup and a nice dress.



mostman said:


> ...First, I love how open Fake Locke is. He might be the bad guy, be he differs from Jacob in that he seems to trust people with information. ...


I'm not so sure. He seems to deceive, mislead, and leave things out. He seems a lot like Ben, now that I think about it. But one could also say that Jacob misleads, deceives, and leaves things out. I guess we'll only know the truth when their motives are revealed.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

aindik said:


> And fLocke tells Sawyer that fLocke is the Smoke Monster, and Sawyer doesn't bat an eye.
> 
> fLocke tells Kate he's "not a dead man," and Kate doesn't even ask him WTF he's talking about. He says "before I looked like this, I had a mother," and Kate doesn't even ask him who or what he is.


Sawyer and Kate have traveled through time, seen an island literally disappear before their eyes, seen the smoke monster, have seen a man come back from the very, very dead... at this point, I think it will take a LOT to get either of them to bat an eye. Plus they both act like they don't give a crap anymore (the characters - I think the actors do a great job) about what is going on. They want to fix their little part of it, and could care less about the rest.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

One thing I don't think has been mentioned: right before Claire attacked Kate, Kate asked Sayid if he was alright and he said, "No." They never followed up on that because of Claire's attack, but it will be interesting to see whether Sayid realizes there's something wrong and makes an effort to correct it, or whether he allows the infection to turn him crazy like it apparently did with Claire.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> One thing I don't think has been mentioned: right before Claire attacked Kate, Kate asked Sayid if he was alright and he said, "No." They never followed up on that because of Claire's attack, but it will be interesting to see whether Sayid realizes there's something wrong and makes an effort to correct it, or whether he allows the infection to turn him crazy like it apparently did with Claire.


Sayid is crackers now. He feels it - and it sees what the people on his team act like. He is headed for Claire city - and he doesn't like it.


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

Another _candidate _ for the locked room on Widmore's sub would be Theresa; Daniel Faraday's college girlfriend who was in some type of "coma" (supposedly as a side-effect of time-travel). Widmore was supposedly paying her medical bills, and maybe bringing her to the Island would restore her to health.

Or maybe it's just Eloise Hawking. You have to think that we're going to see her again before the season is done.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

3D said:


> I got the crappy old sitcom wrong, That guy was Chip on Kate and Allie. Don't see anything about Criminal Minds.
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0462735/


Okay, that might be my memory fail. I do see he was on Boston Legal as a kind of killer guy and he gets off thanks to good lawyering. Maybe that was what I was thinking. For some reason as soon as I saw him I thought Criminal Minds.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

T-Wolves said:


> Another _candidate _ for the locked room on Widmore's sub would be Theresa; Daniel Faraday's college girlfriend who was in some type of "coma" (supposedly as a side-effect of time-travel). Widmore was supposedly paying her medical bills, and maybe bringing her to the Island would restore her to health.


+1 :up:

EXCELLENT Theory!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

T-Wolves said:


> Another _candidate _ for the locked room on Widmore's sub would be Theresa; Daniel Faraday's college girlfriend who was in some type of "coma" (supposedly as a side-effect of time-travel). Widmore was supposedly paying her medical bills, and maybe bringing her to the Island would restore her to health.


One reason that she's interesting is that she was visited by Desmond in the past, at the request of Daniel in 2005 on the island. Assuming that when she wakes up they told her that Desmond arrived, she's affected in the past by something Faraday said in 2005, only if Faraday is actually on the island (and Desmond is near it) in 2005.

Maybe based on that knowedge, in her next flash backwards, she makes some change even further back than that!

But on a simpler note, she's interesting just for the same reason Minkowski and Charlotte were - she's consciousness jumping through time.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Maybe the fact that they've shown us two types of "talking to dead people" is a hint/reminder that there are two (or more) types of time travel.. Island flashes aren't enough to let you change things (e.g. Faraday fail) but visions of the future or other consciousness shifts are?


----------



## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

betts4 said:


> Ah, I was thinking of this guy on Criminal Minds....but I can't find his name.


He looked familiar and I couldn't place him.....

Now I see...on his IMDB, he has been on Castle, The Mentalist, Journeyman, Numb3rs, CSI NY, and the original CSI.....all shows we watch.

He is one of those bit part actors that is everywhere


----------



## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

unixadm said:


> He looked familiar and I couldn't place him.....
> 
> Now I see...on his IMDB, he has been on Castle, The Mentalist, Journeyman, Numb3rs, CSI NY, and the original CSI.....all shows we watch.
> 
> He is one of those bit part actors that is everywhere


Dude. It is CHIP from KATE & ALLIE!

He was also a *********** guy from OZ.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

aindik said:


> Do we have any evidence that anyone from the temple is trying to kill the Smoke Monster? Dogen sent Sayid to stab him with a dagger, but I think that was more a suicide mission for Sayid than an actual attempt to kill the Smoke Monster.


My question is, why didn't it kill Fake Locke?
Ben stabbing Jacob was enough to kill him.

Is this more evidence that Jacob had to die?

And what can kill Fake Locke then?
Bullets didn't seem to do it either.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

T-Wolves said:


> Another _candidate _ for the locked room on Widmore's sub would be Theresa; Daniel Faraday's college girlfriend who was in some type of "coma" (supposedly as a side-effect of time-travel). Widmore was supposedly paying her medical bills, and maybe bringing her to the Island would restore her to health.
> 
> Or maybe it's just Eloise Hawking. You have to think that we're going to see her again before the season is done.





jkeegan said:


> One reason that she's interesting is that she was visited by Desmond in the past, at the request of Daniel in 2005 on the island. Assuming that when she wakes up they told her that Desmond arrived, she's affected in the past by something Faraday said in 2005, only if Faraday is actually on the island (and Desmond is near it) in 2005.
> 
> Maybe based on that knowedge, in her next flash backwards, she makes some change even further back than that!
> 
> But on a simpler note, she's interesting just for the same reason Minkowski and Charlotte were - she's consciousness jumping through time.


Take a look at Jeff Jensen's article at ew.com. If you don't want to read the whole thing, skip straight to page 8, where he essentially makes the argument that Smokey=Daniel Faraday and that Widmore, his father, has been keeping Teresa alive all of these years just so that he could bring her to the island to help mercy kill Faraday (his son).


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

A preview of props you can bid on after the series finale. Very cool stuff!
http://www.profilesinhistory.com/lost-auction-preview/lost-auction-preview


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Fool Me Twice said:


> A preview of props you can bid on after the series finale. Very cool stuff!
> http://www.profilesinhistory.com/lost-auction-preview/lost-auction-preview


I'm trying to decide which prop I would take if they let me have one. Maybe Faraday's journal. Maybe John's suicide note to Jack. Maybe Ben's note commuting Juliet's executions. Those three are interesting since, I believe, they are handwritten by the show's stars--not all of Faraday's journal, but I think some.

The computer is very cool, but very big.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I'm trying to decide which prop I would take if they let me have one. Maybe Faraday's journal. Maybe John's suicide note to Jack. Maybe Ben's note commuting Juliet's executions. Those three are interesting since, I believe, they are handwritten by the show's stars--not all of Faraday's journal, but I think some.
> 
> The computer is very cool, but very big.


If I had my choice, definitely Faraday's journal.


----------



## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

3D said:


> Take a look at Jeff Jensen's article at ew.com. If you don't want to read the whole thing, skip straight to page 8, where he essentially makes the argument that Smokey=Daniel Faraday and that Widmore, his father, has been keeping Teresa alive all of these years just so that he could bring her to the island to help mercy kill Faraday (his son).


Wow, *that *guy is something else. 8 pages on one episode of Lost, containing all sorts of literary allusions, song lyrics, potential theories, etc.. Definitely a hard-core fan.

As for his page 8 theory, it's just a bit too "out there" for me. I'd hope for something a bit "cleaner."

But it did make me think about Faraday again, and about what he might've been doing in Ann Arbor for 3 years. Writing his journal, perhaps? And what else? What other things might he have put in play?

I guess when it comes down to it, I'd put my money on it being Desmond (& Penny?) in Widmore's sub. Desmond probably has a pivotal part to play in the endgame because of his special ability (to "see the future" or whatever).


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Well, I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the mystery guest(s) are Clarie's mom and Aaron (who is Smokey btw).


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I'll guess that inside the door is a glowing golden light being cast by something we never get to see.


----------



## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

Hands down Sawyer's glasses- they provided me more in the way of laughs than anything else.
Or the fail safe key.
Or Dharma beer.


----------



## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

What struck me in this episode was when Flocke and his followers were coming out of the jungle from the temple in a big line, one of the little kids was carrying the same Teddy Bear the one of the others were carrying season one as the original losties hid in the bushes as the others walked by.

They couldn't see the faces of the others then but a little kid was carrying that teddy bear as a line of the others walked past them in the jungle.

Time loop? Or maybe they just pulled it out of the prop room again.

BTW: I'd bid on Hurley's winning lotto ticket.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I was looking at the auction items (neat!) and took a good look at the cover of Hurley's comic. I don't think I've ever looked at it closely before. I was struck by the way the characters on the cover (Green Lantern and The Flash) are divided vertically in two, and how that now parallels what we're seeing this season on LOST, with two versions of each of our main characters. I'm sure that's been discussed before.










It looks like the characters appear in their modern costume on the left, and their Golden Age era costume on the right. Is that a plot point of this issue of the comic, or just something done for style on the cover art?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Johnny Dancing said:


> What struck me in this episode was when Flocke and his followers were coming out of the jungle from the temple in a big line, one of the little kids was carrying the same Teddy Bear the one of the others were carrying season one as the original losties hid in the bushes as the others walked by.
> 
> They couldn't see the faces of the others then but a little kid was carrying that teddy bear as a line of the others walked past them in the jungle.
> 
> Time loop? Or maybe they just pulled it out of the prop room again.


Why does it have to be a time loop or a prop error? Aren't those kids leaving the Temple in this episode the same kids that were walking through the jungle dragging the teddy bear in Season 1? Therefore, why wouldn't they still have the same teddy bear three years later? Rather than a prop error, it was actually an intentional effort at continuity.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

danterner said:


> I'll guess that inside the door is a glowing golden light being cast by something we never get to see.


This made me laugh.  That is all.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

danterner said:


> It looks like the characters appear in their modern costume on the left, and their Golden Age era costume on the right. Is that a plot point of this issue of the comic, or just something done for style on the cover art?


It's a plot point.
Faster Friends was a two issue Prestige format miniseries.

IIRC, Part 1 involved the Golden Age Green Lantern (Alan Scott) and Flash (Jay Garrick) in their first team up against an alien who crashed on Earth and how they didn't like each other when they first met but became friends, as Flash and Green Lantern are always friends. (Hal Jordan and Barry Allen were often referred to as "The Brave and the Bold".)

Part 2 involved the alien coming back for revenge and having the modern Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner) and Flash (Wally West), who really, really disliked each other, rescue Jay and Alan.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

3D said:


> Take a look at Jeff Jensen's article at ew.com. If you don't want to read the whole thing, skip straight to page 8, where he essentially makes the argument that Smokey=Daniel Faraday and that Widmore, his father, has been keeping Teresa alive all of these years just so that he could bring her to the island to help mercy kill Faraday (his son).


I just read 8 pages of a Jeff Jensen article at ew.com based on this, and was prepared to come back and post "meh" because I wasn't impressed, but he didn't talk about anything you just said. Did I just read the wrong week's article by this guy? I think I'll skip straight to page 8 if I find the right week. (No offense, last week I felt bad for saying someone else's reference cost me hours I couldn't get back.. it wasn't that bad, just not my cup of tea.. but all of that was the wrong article! I'll go look for the one you actually meant now)


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

TriBruin said:


> I wondered last night that Charlotte was originally written to be Juliette, but Elizabeth Mitchelle could not find the time. Maybe Rebecca Madar was a last minute substitution.
> 
> Also, was the girl that Sawyer arrested in the beginning anyone we have seen before?





crowfan said:


> Jodi Lyn O'Keefe has never been on Lost before, according to IMDB.
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005281/


She's another of the _Nash Bridges_ alumni to appear on this show, which also includes Cheech, Daniel Roebuck (Artz), Jeff Perry, Patrick Fischler (Phil), and I'm sure others. Carlton Cuse created that show too, and Damon Lindelof was a writer.


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

i could barely recognize tina fey


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok, just found and read the real article.

meh

The smoke monster has been around for around 5000 years at least, by my guess (there were pictures of a smoke monster in the basement of the temple next to hieroglyphics).. (Or, multiple people take the place of the smoke monster, one after the other, I suppose). But none of that fits in with the idea of Widmore coming back for the reasons in that page 8, nor does it feel consistent with his character.. Nor do I agree with 95% of what I read by this ew.com writer.

Again, no offense.  But no.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

3D said:


> Take a look at Jeff Jensen's article at ew.com. If you don't want to read the whole thing, skip straight to page 8, where he essentially makes the argument that Smokey=Daniel Faraday and that Widmore, his father, has been keeping Teresa alive all of these years just so that he could bring her to the island to help mercy kill Faraday (his son).





jkeegan said:


> Ok, just found and read the real article.
> 
> meh
> 
> ...


I didn't read the article but based on the small paragrah above I can already tell it makes no sense. Jeff Jensen makes a career out of dissecting the show but I stopped reading his reviews early on because he takes it WAAAAY too far. He just seems to be free-writing sometimes because it makes no sense. Widmore is keeping Theresa alive because he wants to use her against Faraday, who is the smoke monster. Despite the fact that A: the smoke monster has been around forever, and B: We've seen Faraday's entire life, and death.

This is why this show gets out of control sometimes--because it's so layered and deep people try to make the most off-the-all, ridiculous connections/theories/assumptions. Although I guess with this show, you never know...


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

bruinfan said:


> i could barely recognize tina fey


You mean Sheila Kelley?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> This is why this show gets out of control sometimes--because it's so layered and deep people try to make the most off-the-all, ridiculous connections/theories/assumptions. Although I guess with this show, you never know...


So first of all I agree with your post ( :up: ), but I think your last sentence is actually the problem you describe!

So often I see people here and elsewhere casually throw around phrases similar to:

"but, this is Lost! So you never know!"

I get the gist of where they're going, but I think this makes lots of people think "well, it's all so darned confusing, who KNOWS what they'll do next! It's so complicated! Isn't it great?! (selfmurmor: 'i don't understand..')"

I actually think these kinda statements are a disservice to Lost and its writers.. So far I'd say the good money is on the bet that they're actually going to wrap most of this up, extremely well! That's not some random "wow its complicated.. anything can happen!" kind of thing.. No! That's the result of *hard work* by the writers, getting key points lined up and sticking to them! Writing something like this, and actually doing podcasts, and not giving everything away, must be incredibly difficult!

And then writers like that guy come around, and write articles where at least 70% of it isn't even a well thought out guess.. The smoke monster is the "freaky fusion" of the dying Faraday who was just shot by his mother and the fetal Faraday who was growing inside his pregnant mother when she shot him? Are you f*cking kidding me? Who gives this guy an article??

Most of what we (all of us) do here in these forums is 50 times better than that 1 1/8 articles I just read from the guy. And people will print it because there are anchor people who haven't seen Lost once that can say things like "Wow.. That Lost show.. Zany! What's going to happen on that island next? So much going on!"

The show is layered and deep because it's beautifully complex and intricate, by design, and that depth contains actual links, intent, character background, and all of the resultant consistency that goes with planning something out ahead of time. And as you say, that lets people guess the most crazy **** they can come up with, and tack a "but you never know! This IS Lost!!" on it. Bah!

I know I come up with some crazy half thought out ideas and post them here, but that's because we're all brainstorming a solution here and throwing out quick ideas as we get them. This guy is writing for a living.

Bah.

Ok, vent over, back to your lives. Nothing to see here. 

And again, absolutely no offense intended for suggesting that we read this (seriously). But I reserve the right to say when something doesn't even meet the standards of what we do here, and that doesn't.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> I'm starting to think that Widmore is not on either side, Jacob or Locke's and wants the island for himself.


We have Widmore, who sends guys to kill everyone, and Flocke who murders people right and left, and Ben who killed all the Dharma people... Is there really a good guy here at all? It sounds like a bunch of homicidal maniacs all trying to take over.



mostman said:


> Couple random points.
> 
> First, I love how open Fake Locke is. .


Maybe, but I think most of what he tells them is lies to get them to do what he wants. I think he and Ben could contend for biggest liar. Do we really think he will take James off the island?

I think Widmore is there now because Jacob is dead. As soon as he heard that he went to Eloise and got the bearing and headed out. Before that Jacob wouldn't let him come.

Is it possible Sawyer took a quick spin driving the sub in his LaFleur days?

When Locke said, "it's kill or be killed" my thought was, how would they kill him? It was probably just an excuse, but it could mean that there is a way to kill him--or a specific person who can kill him.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> So first of all I agree with your post ( :up: ), but I think your last sentence is actually the problem you describe!
> 
> So often I see people here and elsewhere casually throw around phrases similar to:
> 
> ...


You're just jealous he gets to write about "Lost" for a living.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

MickeS said:


> You're just jealous he gets to write about "Lost" for a living.


Far from it!  A weekly deadline would lead to posting random stuff like that. That can't be fun. I get to enjoy Lost!


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

KellyR66 said:


> What or who is locked in the sub? My guess is Desmond although I hope it's a bigger suprise than that.


I'd like it to be the HurleyBird. 



gchance said:


> Well, Smokey can float around as well as pick people up. Offscreen, Smokey lifted Sawyer up and out.


I stand by my theory in a previous thread that the grotto is connected to tunnels which have many exits in the forest.



Magister said:


> I think we are being told that Sawyer will end up being a good guy and saving everyone. He is already trying to work out deals to save all the people he can. I think he is trying to be good in his own way.


I like this. Look at Jack and how he seems to only think of himself -- even breaking the mirrors in the lighthouse which others could have used to see their connection to Jacob. :down:

Yet Sawyer is trying to quietly negotiate with Widmore for the safe passage and protection of the people he brings with him. Very noble! Kudos to him! :up:



mqpickles said:


> Lesson one from recon: if you don't like people looking through your things, don't take an archeologist home.
> 
> Maybe that's why they chose Charlotte for this story. .. But for Charlotte digging through stuff is second nature.


LOL!! :up::up:



latrobe7 said:


> I personally wondered why James would tell her to "Help yourself" to the the drawer where he's keeping his super-secret Sawyer file... and why would you keep that in a dresser drawer, anyway...?


"Help yourself! It's in the top drawer, right under my porn stash!"



ireland967 said:


> Zoe was played by Sheila Kelley, also a familar character actor (video dating girl from the movie Singles is where I remember her most).


She was a total doppelganger for Tina Fey. That's what distracted me while she was onscreen.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

getreal said:


> I like this. Look at Jack and how he seems to only think of himself -- even breaking the mirrors in the lighthouse which others could have used to see their connection to Jacob. :down:
> 
> Yet Sawyer is trying to quietly negotiate with Widmore for the safe passage and protection of the people he brings with him. Very noble! Kudos to him! :up:


I still can't help thinking the last scene is Sawyer and Jack on the beach. "You don't know how much I want to kill you..."


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I'm starting to suspect that we'll get a Sopranos like ending.


----------



## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> I'm starting to suspect that we'll get a Sopranos like ending.


Don't stop believing


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> And again, absolutely no offense intended for suggesting that we read this (seriously). But I reserve the right to say when something doesn't even meet the standards of what we do here, and that doesn't.


Uh, none taken?  Actually, I believe I only suggested a read of page 8. I actually enjoy skimming his column (I usually skip right over his attempt at finding hidden meanings from other works). More often than not, he'll come up with an idea that doesn't occur to anyone posting here for a couple of days, if not a couple of episodes, later (or at least if anyone does have the thought, they haven't posted it). Oh, and usually those ideas, when they are posted here, are pretty well received (and, not that anyone cares or would even remember if I came up with a good point, but I wouldn't crib from the guy without giving credit). It could just be that he throws enough against the wall and something's gonna stick, but I still generally find the guy to be an interesting read. One of the reasons I referred to the Faraday theory he posted is that it arguably ties in with Dantenners theory of a mobius loop.

Anyhow, with some of the posts of yours that I've waded through, I don't feel too bad about you reading more than just page eight


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

3D said:


> Anyhow, with some of the posts of yours that I've waded through, I don't feel too bad about you reading more than just page eight


Bazinga!


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

jking said:


> I don't know if there's enough time left in the series for an agenda on her part to develop. More likely, if anything, it was along the lines of going through someone's medicine cabinet. I do agree with others' comments that she really didn't have a legitimate reason to be angry with him. Yes, he invited her to look in the drawer... for a shirt. If I am invited to look in a drawer for a shirt, and I see something that is most definitely not what I am looking for, I don't go rifling through it. I put it back in its place and continue looking.





latrobe7 said:


> I agree that she shouldn't have looked at the folder, however I think she came upon it innocently and had no agenda beyond looking for a t-shirt.
> 
> I also think James completely over-reacted to the situation.


latrobe has it. Sure, James had a right to be upset, but he completely blew his top. It has to be pretty scary to have a guy as big as him, that you just met a few hours before, go all nutty on you for what seems to be a not very good reason... esp. after you read his parents were killed when he was 9... and when you don't even have any pants on. I'm not surprised she didn't want any part of him, even the next day. As a person she was portrayed as being far too put together and self-confident to want to get involved with _that_.



danterner said:


> I'll guess that inside the door is a glowing golden light being cast by something we never get to see.


Excellent :up: :up: Love it.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

3D said:


> Anyhow, with some of the posts of yours that I've waded through, I don't feel too bad about you reading more than just page eight


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

re: Miles Straume - Traume is German for dreams. Probably nothing, but I rarely have antyhing to contribute to Lost threads.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Far from it!  A weekly deadline would lead to posting random stuff like that. That can't be fun. I get to enjoy Lost!


I read a lot of LOST stuff from forum posts to blog posts to magazine articles. IMO Jeff Jensen is one of the best. You should try reading the guy more often - or at least try to contain yourself after reading a whopping 1/8 of 1/100th of what the guy as written about the show.


----------



## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> We have Widmore, who sends guys to kill everyone, and Flocke who murders people right and left, and Ben who killed all the Dharma people... Is there really a good guy here at all? It sounds like a bunch of homicidal maniacs all trying to take over


Old Testament Gods.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Well, finally watched the episode. Usually watch it live but complications of life made me record LOST.

Another great episode with twists and turns. Here's where I agree and differ with the last couple hundred posts...

I'm warming up to Sideways world. Let's think of Sideways as NOT the alternate universe to the bomb but instead representing the life threads of the LOSTIES if that meddlesome Jacob hadn't "touched" them. Seems cool at first, Sawyer becomming a cop instead of a con, Jack's life as a father, etc. but then how did Locke survive the fall if Jacob hadn't touched him? Dunno, but still like this hypothethis.

Sawyer and Miles are such cool cop buddies. Love Hurley and Miles too. Conclusion, Miles is the ultimate sidekick.

Against all rationality, I had still held out hope for Sayid, albeit much diminished after his fantastic scene last week when he turned to Ben and said "Not for me" with that evil possessed grin/grimace, but his despondence when queried by Kate and worse yet his subsequent inaction when Claire tried to kill Kate pretty much shows that this is the real dark side of my man.

Love Sawyer episodes. His masterfull use of truth in the dual sided unLocke & Widmore con is classic. I don't agree that Sawyer is conning Kate. Not at all.

Dunno about the couple posters who don't like Kate. She's a strong, complex yet flawed woman with a basic decent streak. Like Sawyer, she's not as shallow as the others (heh) to blindly become a disciple of unLocke.

Back to thinking that the skeletons in the cave could be Kate & Sawyer. Kinda hope not.

Completely agree with jkeegan about the pseudointellectual phoey interpretation of LOST. There's enough random complexity in most anything that you can use to fabricate complete bovine excrement.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

A couple of thoughts and observations:

1. Is Flock growing man boobs? Around 11 minutes in, when Flocke and Sawyer have that conversation, it really looks like he's growing a pair, and I don't mean balls.

2. Has anyone commented on the question to Sawyer "Do you want to die alone?" (compared with Jack's "Live together, die alone" comment from the pilot.)

3. I don't think the bomb is all that important to the concurrent timelines. Its just where we started in on the mobius strip. The split in reality probably occurred in the fifties with the H bomb. If 815 never crashed, that's the earliest Sawyer, Farraday, and company went. That's where the change first occurred.

4. The concurrent reality seems to be one in which Jacob influenced the people from 815 and one where he didn't. I think somehow Jacob was erased from time. The ripples Jacob put out and their absence are powerful things.

5. Flocke talking about his mother: I have two schools of thought. Flocke and Jacob are really ancient, like Flocke is Oedipus? Sisyphus? Or, if like we supposed, Jacob and Flocke are looking for replacements, we can throw that out.

6. I don't think Miles can talk to the dead in the concurrent reality. I think the Island gave him that power, and in that reality he wasn't born there, or didn't spend time there.

7. Charlotte was there for a reason, and I don't think it was Miles' idea: someone manipuated the situation.

8. A prediction: Jack and Sawyer will take the place of Flocke and Jacob, and will work together to eliminate that reality and make sure they never took the jobs, and create the concurrent reality.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

And Det. Ford's mark was Kate from White Collar.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

unixadm said:


> He looked familiar and I couldn't place him.....
> 
> Now I see...on his IMDB, he has been on Castle, The Mentalist, Journeyman, Numb3rs, CSI NY, and the original CSI.....all shows we watch.
> 
> He is one of those bit part actors that is everywhere


Every time I see him in something, I see chip.

He was also in Oz for a little while....and one of the stock actors in that Spielburg director contest TV thing a few years ago.

Claire seems a little cartoony to me and Sawyer's hair on the island got pretty all of a sudden.

Maybe it's because I've been rewatching old seasons along with the current, but all the characters are acting like caricatures of themselves. I think I might stop watching this season until I catch up from the old ones.

I got a big "WE'RE IN THE LAST SEASON SO HAVE SOME MORE ANSWERS!" type of vibe from this episode.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Well there was the pilot episode of course.


There should be bonus points for the first pilot episode to ever do this. :up:



BitbyBlit said:


> Since Sawyer was planning on telling Flocke the truth, it didn't matter. If Flocke and Widmore were allies, and this was a test of Sawyer's loyalty, then telling Flocke everything would have allowed him to pass.


Actually, it matters a lot. Sawyer's whole plan revolves around these 2 guys fighting it out and being distracted, so he can steal or commandeer the sub. Gonna be hard to do if fLocke and Widmore are sipping fine malt whiskey and congratulating each other over on Hydra, don't you think? But I guess we'll find out. I wish I had the willpower to stock up the remaining episodes and watch them without another week having to pass first. Dangnabbit.

On another point, I rewatched a bunch of the first 2 episodes and caught the Sawyer - Kate part again. He clearly sees her handcuffs and doesn't just complain that the TSA rentacop doesn't tell him what the code means, he even makes them wait for Kate to leave the elevator - "Ladies first". He doesn't just let her go, he intervenes.

(I was rewatching because a friend of mine told me that Sawyer's hair is wrong in the sideways. On the sideways 815 flight, they sorta tried to recreate his hair from the pilot. In this sideways though, his hair is current Sawyer Normal. True, but big deal. This wasn't in that 8 page synopsis, was it? )


----------



## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> Is Flock growing man boobs?


At that angle and lighting most certainly. Laugh out loud funny.

In the old days there was an incredibly important position called "script girl," long since gone. For awhile it became "continuity" and was largely ignored. I've been out of the business for awhile but from what I see the function is now totally absent. Though the primary responsibility was to make sure ties/shirt colors/stubble depth/makeup matched during script-continuous sequences shot with a realtime gap, this was one of the things they looked for, common sense stuff too trivial for the creatives to bother with. When they're missed, audiences laugh when they're not supposed to. Or feel a subliminal dissonance, that something's not right.

When you look at how smoothly old Hollywood movies flowed, this was one reason. Lighting is another, also at fault here. OTOH it would take weeks to shoot a Lost episode with professional standards so I understand it can't be done anymore. And only seven people in the world noticed, including you and me, and four of them didn't care.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> 5. Flocke talking about his mother: I have two schools of thought. Flocke and Jacob are really ancient, like Flocke is Oedipus? Sisyphus? Or, if like we supposed, Jacob and Flocke are looking for replacements, we can throw that out.


Cain and Abel?
That would make Fake Locke's mother Eve?


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

JYoung said:


> Cain and Abel?
> That would make Fake Locke's mother Eve?


Eve wasn't crazy ... just curious


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> If 815 never crashed, that's the earliest Sawyer, Farraday, and company went. That's where the change first occurred.


I know that the fifties is the farthest back that we saw them travel and have what seemed to be meaningful encounters, but didn't we actually see them briefly flash to the time when the statue was being built? If so, however briefly and seemingly innocuous that trip was, it theoretically could have had far reaching implications (e.g., the butterfly effect).


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

wprager said:


> Eve wasn't crazy ... just curious


Okay, let's get apocryphal for a moment:

If not Eve, then how about Lilith (Adam's first wife)? Interesting to note that the story of Lilith traces back to Mesopotamian stories of a storm demon associated with wind, thought to be a bearer of disease, illness, and death. Kind of sounds like Smokey. Also interesting to note that the biblical story of Lilith springs from dual/conflicting creation stories in Genesis. Kind of like how we're now seeing the "sideways world" on the show. Finally, interesting to note her associations with childbirth/child-killing, a theme we've seen predominate on the show.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

3D said:


> I know that the fifties is the farthest back that we saw them travel and have what seemed to be meaningful encounters, but didn't we actually see them briefly flash to the time when the statue was being built? If so, however briefly and seemingly innocuous that trip was, it theoretically could have had far reaching implications (e.g., the butterfly effect).


I don't think we saw it being built. We did see it whole though. We don't know how the statue broke and where the rest of it is.

You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!"


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

wprager said:


> Eve wasn't crazy ... just curious


Boacurious.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't think we saw it being built. We did see it whole though. We don't know how the statue broke and where the rest of it is.
> 
> You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!"


Interesting that was the last place they visited before Locke turned the wheel and they jumped into 1974. I wonder if we will find out when they were standing there looking at the statue, it was the exact same moment as the season 5 finale, when Jacob and MiB were talking on the beach, and the Black Rock was sailing in... and that the turn of the wheel somehow caused something to happen which caused the breaking of the statue and the Black Rock to be thrown to the middle of the island at the same time?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

3D said:


> I know that the fifties is the farthest back that we saw them travel and have what seemed to be meaningful encounters, but didn't we actually see them briefly flash to the time when the statue was being built? If so, however briefly and seemingly innocuous that trip was, it theoretically could have had far reaching implications (e.g., the butterfly effect).


I don't know about being built, but it certainly was standing.. And they left a piece of rope there in the well I believe.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jking said:


> Interesting that was the last place they visited before Locke turned the wheel and they jumped into 1974. I wonder if we will find out when they were standing there looking at the statue, it was the exact same moment as the season 5 finale, when Jacob and MiB were talking on the beach, and the Black Rock was sailing in... and that the turn of the wheel somehow caused something to happen which caused the breaking of the statue and the Black Rock to be thrown to the middle of the island at the same time?


Of course! Doh! Locke turning the wheel moved the island.. I'll bet you're right - the black rock got caught up in the sphere of influence and got thrown inland!


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Delta13 said:


> Actually, it matters a lot. Sawyer's whole plan revolves around these 2 guys fighting it out and being distracted, so he can steal or commandeer the sub. Gonna be hard to do if fLocke and Widmore are sipping fine malt whiskey and congratulating each other over on Hydra, don't you think?


But if they were allies then he wouldn't have been able to do anything anyway. As long as he waits until they actually start duking it out, he should be fine. The best way for his plan to succeed is to stay as much as possible off of both Widmore and Flocke's radar. Asking about their conflict would have focused attention on him that he didn't want. He wanted them to stay focused on each other.


----------



## AndreZero (Feb 11, 2010)

KellyR66 said:


> What or who is locked in the sub? My guess is Desmond although I hope it's a bigger suprise than that. Maybe Waaaallt!


I think that locked room on the sub is a magic box that gives you whatever you want (or maybe the box is just a metaphor). And Locke's dad (AKA the "real" Sawyer) is locked inside!


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> I read a lot of LOST stuff from forum posts to blog posts to magazine articles. IMO Jeff Jensen is one of the best. You should try reading the guy more often - or at least try to contain yourself after reading a whopping 1/8 of 1/100th of what the guy as written about the show.


I think Jensen does a fantastic job with his Lost articles. I do agree that that specific theory fell a little flat for me, (at least when he started talking about this fusion of Faraday past and present, etc..) Overall, his recap article is something I look forward to quite a bit each week.:up:


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Of course! Doh! Locke turning the wheel moved the island.. I'll bet you're right - the black rock got caught up in the sphere of influence and got thrown inland!


So, if the bomb worked and they never went back in time, then the Black Rock never got thrown inland. Which means ... my head hurts.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

3D said:


> So, if the bomb worked and they never went back in time, then the Black Rock never got thrown inland. Which means ... my head hurts.


Which is the point I've been trying to make. The universe's head hurts, which is why it's suddenly broken in two, and needs to be fixed.


----------



## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> We have Widmore, who sends guys to kill everyone, and Flocke who murders people right and left, and Ben who killed all the Dharma people... Is there really a good guy here at all? It sounds like a bunch of homicidal maniacs all trying to take over.
> 
> Maybe, but I think most of what he tells them is lies to get them to do what he wants. I think he and Ben could contend for biggest liar. Do we really think he will take James off the island?
> .


Flocke already got James off the island. He sent him to the other island. Always word your wishes carefully.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

3D said:


> Which means ... my head hurts.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Which is the point I've been trying to make. The universe's head hurts, which is why it's suddenly broken in two, and needs to be fixed.


The point you've been trying to make is that I'm the universe but that I'm broken in two and need to be fixed?  Thanks, I think.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

AndreZero said:


> I think that locked room on the sub is a magic box that gives you whatever you want (or maybe the box is just a metaphor). And Locke's dad (AKA the "real" Sawyer) is locked inside!


I think it's Al Capone's vault.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> Back to thinking that the skeletons in the cave could be Kate & Sawyer. Kinda hope not.


I had never read that theory before, and do not subscribe to it now.



jkeegan said:


> Of course! Doh! Locke turning the wheel moved the island.. I'll bet you're right - the black rock got caught up in the sphere of influence and got thrown inland!





3D said:


> So, if the bomb worked and they never went back in time, then the Black Rock never got thrown inland. Which means ... my head hurts.


Ever since we first saw the island disappear just after Sawyer jumped from the helicopter, I understood that the island somehow changed latitude and longitude coordinates at that moment. So I also understood that the Black Rock was merrily sailing along when someone on the island turned the donkey wheel and the island suddenly appeared in the same spot where the ship happened to be, instantly grounding the ship in the forest and stranding everybody.

So I don't think the ship was "thrown inland", as that implies that the boat was tossed, and it would have shattered into pieces. The island just appeared beneath it and any subsequent island movements took the ship along for the ride.

Also, the island doesn't "sink", like a ship would sink. It will eventually move to the coordinates where it happens to exist on the ocean floor.



Honora said:


> Flocke already got James off the island. He sent him to the other island. Always word your wishes carefully.


Ooohh! Interesting catch there! :up: I wonder if that will play out ...


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Honora said:


> Flocke already got James off the island. He sent him to the other island. Always word your wishes carefully.


 Exactly! Bad negotiating with a slippery genie.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

getreal said:


> Ever since we first saw the island disappear just after Sawyer jumped from the helicopter, I understood that the island somehow changed latitude and longitude coordinates at that moment. So I also understood that the Black Rock was merrily sailing along when someone on the island turned the donkey wheel and the island suddenly appeared in the same spot where the ship happened to be, instantly grounding the ship in the forest and stranding everybody.
> 
> So I don't think the ship was "thrown inland", as that implies that the boat was tossed, and it would have shattered into pieces. The island just appeared beneath it and any subsequent island movements took the ship along for the ride.
> 
> Also, the island doesn't "sink", like a ship would sink. It will eventually move to the coordinates where it happens to exist on the ocean floor.


That makes perfect sense. I'm still left wondering, however, why it appeared that the Black Rock was simply approaching the island as Jacob and MIB were having their conversation in the opening scene of the S5 finale.


----------



## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

Jeffho said:


> Does anyone think there is any significance when Saywer apologized to Flocke when he called him out in front of people? Flocke hesitated and said that "I forgive you". They kind of dwelled on that little bit. Didn't Smokey want Eko to apologize or ask for forgiveness before he killed him?
> 
> Maybe Smokey is looking for redeeming qualities in people or something along those lines.


Flocke's behavior was odd to several of them - he also called Claire's behavior "inappropriate" and said he would "deal with her" (all after the attack on Kate). Combined with the formal accepting of Sawyer's apology, it really seemed like they way parents deal with small children.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

vman said:


> he also called Claire's behavior "inappropriate" and said he would "deal with her" (all after the attack on Kate).


And then he slapped her across the face.


----------



## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

danterner said:


> I'll guess that inside the door is a glowing golden light being cast by something we never get to see.


Oh please! An comment like that ..well, it just Defies Gravity!


----------



## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

I also wonder about flash-sideway Sawyer's "lead" in Australia where he got the name - did Sawyer (or really James Ford) still kill the shrimp stand guy while he was there?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

vman said:


> I also wonder about flash-sideway Sawyer's "lead" in Australia where he got the name - did Sawyer (or really James Ford) still kill the shrimp stand guy while he was there?


Yeah thought that too.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

rondotcom said:


> Oh please! An comment like that ..well, it just Defies Gravity!


Somebody's been reading too much Pulp Fiction.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not sure another time travel event would work in terms of setting up the climax. It would probably be too much of a deus ex machina at this point...


I would agree, actually, except there are at least two events that needs to be explained by going back in time, either by flashback or an actual time event: the Adam and Eve skeletons and the Ajira rowboat shooting.

My guess is there will be an episode, most likely the penultimate one before the series finale, that does nothing but fills in the blanks so we know everything that we need to know before the stage is set for the final showdown.


----------



## kemajor (Jan 2, 2003)

rondotcom said:


> Oh please! An comment like that ..well, it just Defies Gravity!


If there is an anti-gravity device in there please spoilerize this! 

- K


----------



## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Something I haven't seen discussed in the thread yet...

Locke told Ben to go to Hydra Island last week. This week, he tells the Others to camp out, as they will all be there for a few days.

So...why? Was he hoping that Ben and Widmore would get into it? That he Widmore would take care of Ben? I'm trying to figure out why he would send Ben over there and not just let him get killed by Ilana (or kill Ben himself).


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

LOST tied its series low in the ratings. I fear it may be cancelled.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/1...ost-ncis-parenthood-and-many-other-fall/45237


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Alpinemaps said:


> Something I haven't seen discussed in the thread yet...
> 
> Locke told Ben to go to Hydra Island last week. This week, he tells the Others to camp out, as they will all be there for a few days.
> 
> So...why? Was he hoping that Ben and Widmore would get into it? That he Widmore would take care of Ben? I'm trying to figure out why he would send Ben over there and not just let him get killed by Ilana (or kill Ben himself).


I'd forgotten where he told him to meet him. Interesting.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> LOST tied its series low in the ratings. I fear it may be cancelled.
> 
> http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/1...ost-ncis-parenthood-and-many-other-fall/45237


I don't know if you're being serious or not but we already know it's not coming back next season.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

tewcewl said:


> I would agree, actually, except there are at least two events that needs to be explained by going back in time, either by flashback or an actual time event: the Adam and Eve skeletons ...


I just had a lightbulb moment! It's complete speculation on my part, so it should not be considered as a spoiler.

"Adam & Eve" skeletons are actually Ricardus' wife and child. Since Jacob "touched" Richard, he cannot die and therefore has lived for at least 180 years (it was explained that the scene with Jacob and MiB on the shore took place 140 years ago). Richard was already around 40 when he was on the Black Rock as it approached the island. His beautiful wife and young son were also on board when the Black Rock became stranded in the forest.

But, as his wife aged, and his son grew to become a man, Richard remained the same. Eventually his wife and son were killed (nobody really dies of "natural causes" on this island), and Richard moved away to another side of the island, vowing never to return.

Mystery solved! You're welcome!


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

There are some questions I would like to see addressed before the end of the show. I'm sure everyone has their own list. 

1) According to "The Incident" MIB implies that no one just comes to the island. Jacob has to bring them. So, how did the military find the island to bring Jughead there? Was that Jacob who brought the military, with the bomb, to the island? That implies the nuclear weapon was Jacob's idea, and plan.

2) Was "The Incident" the bomb going off, or the magnetic energy pocket being breached? Daniel thought he could neutralize it with the bomb. During the original timeline (is that a safe term?) the pocket had been breached, and was leaking, but not neutralized. Is the real disconnect between the timelines, that energy? If that's the case, Desmond turns the key about 60 days after the crash. Will that be when the timelines converge? Also, I had always thought that the failsafe key WAS the bomb under the Swan station. When he turned the key, it set off the bomb neutralizing the magnetic energy. Either the bomb went off, and the energy was dispersed in 1977, or 2007 (2010?). This discrepancy in my mind is likely The Incident.

3) The US conducted almost 25 tests on Bikini Atol, many of them multiple bomb tests. It has not sunk, nore is it a lifeless sheet of glass. The single bomb would not, in fact could not, have been responsible for the island sinking. Is it where it is because someone else turned the wheel and it moved to under the surface? Is that how it got there? Also, there were pretty high mountains on that island. It wasn't so deep that the mountains would have been completely covered. It must still be above the surface, merely smaller.

4) If Jacob never touched any of the group in the non-crash timeline, did he touch others who would be his candidates?

5) Why does Jacob have candidates, but UnLocke has recruits?

6) What was the quarrantine, and the drug that Desmond was taking? Why was the swan still operational? Who were all those people, behind the DHARMA Initiative, merely mcguffin's?

7) It was shown that women had mo problem giving birth on the island in the 70s. They would die in the 90s and 2000s. Was it the bomb going off in one timeline having an effect on the people in the other timeline? If it was something else, then what?

8) Will any of these questions be answered, as well as a million others brought up, or are they considered trivial enough to ignore?

And last, 9) Where does UnLocke mean when he says he want to go home? Is it a place, or a time, future, or past, or maybe a condition, like home is normal, not smoke. Hopefully, not a space ship either.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Church AV Guy said:


> 2) Was "The Incident" the bomb going off, or the magnetic energy pocket being breached? Daniel thought he could neutralize it with the bomb. During the original timeline (is that a safe term?) the pocket had been breached, and was leaking, but not neutralized. Is the real disconnect between the timelines, that energy? If that's the case, Desmond turns the key about 60 days after the crash. Will that be when the timelines converge? Also, I had always thought that the failsafe key WAS the bomb under the Swan station. When he turned the key, it set off the bomb neutralizing the magnetic energy. Either the bomb went off, and the energy was dispersed in 1977, or 2007 (2010?). This discrepancy in my mind is likely The Incident.


2004, I believe.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

getreal said:


> I just had a lightbulb moment! It's complete speculation on my part, so it should not be considered as a spoiler.
> 
> "Adam & Eve" skeletons are actually Ricardus' wife and child. Since Jacob "touched" Richard, he cannot die and therefore has lived for at least 180 years (it was explained that the scene with Jacob and MiB on the shore took place 140 years ago). Richard was already around 40 when he was on the Black Rock as it approached the island. His beautiful wife and young son were also on board when the Black Rock became stranded in the forest.
> 
> ...


I actually like this A LOT. Hmm...


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

It's an interesting theory. But in the end I don't know .... it doesn't explain the black and white rocks, and the bodies were shall we say too "recent looking" to have spent 120 or so years in the jungle.

And lastly, Adam and Eve are mother and son? Eww.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

On the others protecting the Island from someone who just wants to leave, why is that? Either MiB is essential to the survival of the Island, MiB would destroy the world (so they keep him prisoner, and try to keep him from destroying his prison), or the others just don't understand MiB.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Delta13 said:


> It's an interesting theory. But in the end I don't know .... it doesn't explain the black and white rocks, and the bodies were shall we say too "recent looking" to have spent 120 or so years in the jungle.
> 
> And lastly, Adam and Eve are mother and son? Eww.


Eww? Dude the same book that mentions Adam and Eve has an INSANE amount of incest!


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Fool Me Twice said:


> LOST tied its series low in the ratings. I fear it may be cancelled.
> 
> http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/1...ost-ncis-parenthood-and-many-other-fall/45237


We need to organize a "Don't Lose Lost!" campaign. Let's start by sending ABC a bunch of pneumatic tube capsules:


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

BitbyBlit said:


> We need to organize a "Don't Lose Lost!" campaign. Let's start by sending Fox a bunch of pneumatic tube capsules:


Fox as in Matthew Fox who plays Jack? Or as in Fox the network? I don't think sending the tubes to Fox the network would really help since the show comes on ABC.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Queue said:


> Fox as in Matthew Fox who plays Jack? Or as in Fox the network? I don't think sending the tubes to Fox the network would really help since the show comes on ABC.


Oops. I guess I was too used to campaigns for getting shows renewed on Fox.

Well, maybe Fox would pick it up. And by Fox, I mean either the network or Matthew.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

It's nice knowing that no matter how bad Lost's ratings get, it will air to it's conclusion. I need that kind of certainty right now with what's going on with 24. I know 24 has it's bad points but it's still better and hell of a lot more entertaining than 90&#37; of TV. It's already bad enough knowing that Lost is over in two months, but at least we KNOW for a fact it's ending on it's terms. 

I just looked at the ratings and saw that it only got 3.9M viewers which blew my mind, but that was the re-run at 8pm. The new episode was 8.8M. That's still crazy considering it used to be in the 20's, and more steadily in the mid-to-high teens. Even sadder that if it had aired against Monday's repeat of CSI: Miami, it would have lost.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Funny, for some reason a week ago I was remembering those pneumatic tubes. For the life of me, I can't remember how that fit into the story line.


----------



## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

IIRC, one of the Dharma stations had a bunch of video screens and the Dharma worker from that station was supposed to write things down in the notebooks and "submit" them using the tubes.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

crowfan said:


> IIRC, one of the Dharma stations had a bunch of video screens and the Dharma worker from that station was supposed to write things down in the notebooks and "submit" them using the tubes.


Yes, but for what purpose? As the pic above reminds us, all those tubes with notebooks just ended up in a heap with no one reading the notes. I don't think we'll ever find out for sure.


----------



## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

I don't think we ever did (or ever will) find out the purpose.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> Yes, but for what purpose? As the pic above reminds us, all those tubes with notebooks just ended up in a heap with no one reading the notes. I don't think we'll ever find out for sure.


At the time we were lead to believe that the hatch (and the other stations) were a series of psychological experiments and that the people in the Pearl station were observing those experiments. When we came upon the tubes lying abandoned in the field, I think it was supposed to be implied that the Pearl station was in fact the experiment.

It was basically just a misdirection to make us think for a couple of episodes that the hatch might be a fake.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Church AV Guy said:


> 7) It was shown that women had mo problem giving birth on the island in the 70s. They would die in the 90s and 2000s.


I recall Juliet saying that women all died during the childbirth process. So children would survive, but women would die. Or was it that mother and child both died? I thought it was just the mothers. ??



jking said:


> At the time we were lead to believe that the hatch (and the other stations) were a series of psychological experiments and that the people in the Pearl station were observing those experiments. When we came upon the tubes lying abandoned in the field, I think it was supposed to be implied that the Pearl station was in fact the experiment.
> 
> It was basically just a misdirection to make us think for a couple of episodes that the hatch might be a fake.


It would be interesting to read the notebooks. But imagine them sitting in those tubes for 30 years, exposed to the sun and the rain. How well does 1970s plastic hold up to decomposition?


----------



## ireland967 (Feb 27, 2003)

getreal said:


> I recall Juliet saying that women all died during the childbirth process. So children would survive, but women would die. Or was it that mother and child both died? I thought it was just the mothers.


Juliet said that pregnant women (and their child) died before the third trimester.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok, so whether or not the bomb split timelines, I now believe the timeline we've been watching for 5 seasons always had a bomb brought to it, and it always exploded at Juliete's hands.

I think it's damned poetic, tragic, and ironic that Juliete was brought to the island to fix the "mothers die during childbirth" problem, and yet she ends up causing it by detonating that bomb.

If the other timeline actually did split there instead of earlier or because of something else, then I think in the sideways timeline, the bomb did NOT go off and that let the energy under the Swan site out, possibly causing the island to move to it's home underwater. But I don't think it split there (Linus exists in sideways, as does Ethan and Roger).

But bottom line, the Incident referred to in the Swan station always referred to Jack charging the site where they'd just hit the pocket and dropping in a bomb, and Juliete blowing it up. That's the history of what we've watched for 5 seasons.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

ireland967 said:


> Juliet said that pregnant women (and their child) died before the third trimester.


Right! Thanks, ireland967!

That tidbit was only aired about 3 years ago, right? Not too bad for a fading memory on my part. 

So I am now wondering about Ilana. Jacob came to her when she was in a hospital, almost completely wrapped in bandages. She has said to Sun that Jacob sent her to protect the candidates. What is HER story? Is she centuries old? How does she know about the candidate business? She clearly has some deep connection/understanding with Jacob, and brought others with her on the Ajira flight piloted by Lapidus.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mrdazzo7 said:


> It's nice knowing that no matter how bad Lost's ratings get, it will air to it's conclusion. I need that kind of certainty right now with what's going on with 24. I know 24 has it's bad points but it's still better and hell of a lot more entertaining than 90% of TV. It's already bad enough knowing that Lost is over in two months, but at least we KNOW for a fact it's ending on it's terms.
> 
> I just looked at the ratings and saw that it only got 3.9M viewers which blew my mind, but that was the re-run at 8pm. The new episode was 8.8M. That's still crazy considering it used to be in the 20's, and more steadily in the mid-to-high teens. Even sadder that if it had aired against Monday's repeat of CSI: Miami, it would have lost.


Low ratings are relative. While this week's episode may have had the lowest ratings of the series to date, it still does better than most everything else on TV. For last week, it was ABC's top-rated show and aside from American Idol, was one of the top rated shows on TV period. When you look at the demo numbers that the networks and advertisers care about (Adults 18-49), it's still extremely successful. Even if this weren't the last season, there would be no danger of it getting canceled.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Low ratings are relative. While this week's episode may have had the lowest ratings of the series to date, it still does better than most everything else on TV. For last week, it was ABC's top-rated show and aside from American Idol, was one of the top rated shows on TV period. When you look at the demo numbers that the networks and advertisers care about (Adults 18-49), it's still extremely successful. Even if this weren't the last season, there would be no danger of it getting canceled.


I guess. I never understood rating and how they work, but from what I do know it seems extremely inaccurate/archaic to me. Unfortunately it seems the TV industry still bases it's entire business model around those numbers so they do matter. When I have sometime I need to try to learn how they calculate demographics vs. total viewers, etc, because I don't get that either. How the hell do they know who is sitting in front of an episode of Lost?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

mrdazzo7 said:


> How the hell do they know who is sitting in front of an episode of Lost?


They have people who agree (for money) to attach a box to the TV that records information about what they watch. They know demographic information about these people because giving up that information is part of the deal. They have enough of these people so that they can use statistical methods to extrapolate from their data what the rest of us are watching and have it come out accurate to some reasonable degree of certainty.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> They have people who agree (for money) to attach a box to the TV that records information about what they watch. They know demographic information about these people because giving up that information is part of the deal. They have enough of these people so that they can use statistical methods to extrapolate from their data what the rest of us are watching and have it come out accurate to some reasonable degree of certainty.


And to add to what aindik said, if your household is a "Nielsen Household," you have a box on/near your TV that has several buttons on it. Each of those buttons is assigned to a member of the household, and there are usually a few extra buttons for guests. When you enter the room, you're supposed to push your button to indicate your presence. When you leave, you're supposed to turn it off. This way, Nielsen can measure that not only was your TV on NBC from 8-9 pm last night, but there was a male age 38, a female age 35 and a male age 14 watching in your home.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

I'm getting tired of LARGE inline images. That is all. 

Oh, to make this relevant: Lost.

Greg


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

This failed to post yesterday and my browser was nice enough to save it.



getreal said:


> Ever since we first saw the island disappear just after Sawyer jumped from the helicopter, I understood that the island somehow changed latitude and longitude coordinates at that moment. So I also understood that the Black Rock was merrily sailing along when someone on the island turned the donkey wheel and the island suddenly appeared in the same spot where the ship happened to be, instantly grounding the ship in the forest and stranding everybody.
> 
> So I don't think the ship was "thrown inland", as that implies that the boat was tossed, and it would have shattered into pieces. The island just appeared beneath it and any subsequent island movements took the ship along for the ride.





3D said:


> That makes perfect sense. I'm still left wondering, however, why it appeared that the Black Rock was simply approaching the island as Jacob and MIB were having their conversation in the opening scene of the S5 finale.


Yeah so I thought what you said, getreal, but then when we saw the Jacob/MiB scene and saw it approaching the island, I thought (as 3D wonders) hmm, how is it going to go from it approaching the island to being inland..

So while I thought the island just appeared beneath the boat originally (without the evidence of an approaching Black Rock), I now have changed my expectations based on this new information.. something is going to happen during their trip into the shore..


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

getreal said:


> So I am now wondering about Ilana. Jacob came to her when she was in a hospital, almost completely wrapped in bandages. She has said to Sun that Jacob sent her to protect the candidates. What is HER story? Is she centuries old? How does she know about the candidate business? She clearly has some deep connection/understanding with Jacob, and brought others with her on the Ajira flight piloted by Lapidus.


Here's the other interesting thing about Ilana.
She was the one who made sure that Sayid was on the plane.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Here's the other interesting thing about Ilana.
> She was the one who made sure that Sayid was on the plane.


(head spins)

Dude you're right..

(thinking....)


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Here's the other interesting thing about Ilana.
> She was the one who made sure that Sayid was on the plane.


I had forgotten about that. You're right, that's interesting.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Here's the other interesting thing about Ilana.
> She was the one who made sure that Sayid was on the plane.





jkeegan said:


> (head spins)
> 
> Dude you're right..
> 
> (thinking....)





3D said:


> I had forgotten about that. You're right, that's interesting.


And here's another thing I remembered about Ilana.
Sayid asked her why she was working for Ben and she replied, "Who's Benjamin Linus?"

Was she lying or did she really not know who Ben was?


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

JYoung said:


> And here's another thing I remembered about Ilana.
> Sayid asked her why she was working for Ben and she replied, "Who's Benjamin Linus?"
> 
> Was she lying or did she really not know who Ben was?


She didn't know. One unfailing constant about LOST is that no character ever shares information with another. Jacob didn't feel she had a need to know.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

So here's a question.. When Jacob came to her and asked her to do this thing for her (which she agreed to, through layers of bandages), did he ask her to:

A) Bring the body that's in the coffin in the cargo hold of 316 to Richard, so Richard would know what smokey looks like.

B) Bring Sayid to the island

C) Make sure everyone who left was back at the island

Did he ask her to do just A, or A+B, or was it A+C?

If it was A+B, was it really the case that his only path towards "victory" had to go through him being killed, to the point where he actually had to help it out by making sure Sayid came to the island to kill his people (and to shoot Ben as a kid to make him WANT to kill Jacob)??

That's one elaborate far-reaching game of chess.

On an unrelated note, has anyone here seen the movie Next?


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Anthony Cooper is Locke's Dad, right? Who seems to be getting along with Locke much better in this timeline. Yet he still is the jerk who caused Sawyer's parents to die? Did he repent at some point, or does Locke just not really know him? And how did Locke end up in the wheelchair if he wasn't pushed out the window by his Dad?

After Locke pulled Claire off Kate and hit her, they walked away for a while. Claire came back all smiles. I imagine him saying, "we need her right now, but I'll let you do what you want to her later."


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Yet another question:

Why did only Jack, Hurley, Kate & Sayid flash from the Ajira flight to go back in time, while Ben, Sun & Locke's body crash landed on the island in present time?


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

getreal said:


> Yet another question:
> 
> Why did only *Jack, Hurley, Kate & Sayid *flash from the Ajira flight to go back in time, while Ben, Sun & Locke's body crash landed on the island in present time?


Because they are 4 of the 6 candidates, whatever that means.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> Because they are 4 of the 6 candidates, whatever that means.


Kate was never identified specifically as a potential "candidate" (although her name was on the wheel at the lighthouse). But everybody else has been specifically mentioned as a "candidate" at this point.

But my point was about the discrepancy in time (1970s vs. 2007) for passengers on the same flight.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> On an unrelated note, has anyone here seen the movie Next?


Unrelated how? Underrated movie, IMO. I thought it was really entertaining and pretty clever. Are you suggesting Jacob has the same ability that Nic Cage did in the movie?


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> So here's a question.. When Jacob came to her and asked her to do this thing for her (which she agreed to, through layers of bandages), did he ask her to:
> 
> A) Bring the body that's in the coffin in the cargo hold of 316 to Richard, so Richard would know what smokey looks like.
> 
> ...


I thought it was obvious that Jacob's been playing one very long reaching game of chess all along. I mean, he touched Sawyer and Kate as kids and we saw him in the 1850s plotting along. He knew to be there when Locke went skydiving out a window. He gave Hugo the note-in-the-ankh-in-the-case. Maybe he's using one of those tri-level chess boards like in Star Trek TOS. 

What he told Ilana was obviously incomplete, but she knew to get Sayid, the names of candidates, the "shadow of the statue" line, and the Locke situation. Somebody's been peeking at the Magic 8 Ball, that's for sure.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Delta13 said:


> I thought it was obvious that Jacob's been playing one very long reaching game of chess all along. I mean, he touched Sawyer and Kate as kids and we saw him in the 1850s plotting along. He knew to be there when Locke went skydiving out a window. He gave Hugo the note-in-the-ankh-in-the-case. Maybe he's using one of those tri-level chess boards like in Star Trek TOS.
> 
> What he told Ilana was obviously incomplete, but she knew to get Sayid, the names of candidates, the "shadow of the statue" line, and the Locke situation. Somebody's been peeking at the Magic 8 Ball, that's for sure.


I'm probably in the minority here, and it's not really that big of a deal, but ever since they started unfolding the Jacob story and kind of hinting that he's been planning these events for decades, it just seems a little over the top. Having Ilana get Sayid on a plane so he can time travel to 1977, get captured, befriend Ben, get a gun and shoot him just so Ben will become a full-other who he will then ignore for 30 years to build rage. Then he brings Locke to the island so he can leave, die, get impersonated by his nemesis who will convince Ben to kill Jacob.

Come on now. I get that the show is all about fate and events having been facilitated WAY before the crash, but the idea that just about every single decision from every character over the course of many years were arranged by Jacob.

in short, facilitating people's journey to the island, sure. Facilitating all decisions and outcomes forever, not so much...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Come on now. I get that the show is all about fate and events having been facilitated WAY before the crash, but the idea that just about every single decision from every character over the course of many years were arranged by Jacob.
> 
> in short, facilitating people's journey to the island, sure. Facilitating all decisions and outcomes forever, not so much...


But Jacob's game could simply involve getting the right pieces on the board. He knows Sayid is important; he doesn't necessarily know why.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I wonder how many others that Jacob touched that failed over the hundreds of years that it seems he was there.


----------



## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

mrdazzo7 said:


> in short, facilitating people's journey to the island, sure. Facilitating all decisions and outcomes forever, not so much...


I agree. I'm still watching to see how this turns out, but I have no expectation of being satisfied with the end. Too much like X-Files.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I'm probably in the minority here, and it's not really that big of a deal, but ever since they started unfolding the Jacob story and kind of hinting that he's been planning these events for decades, it just seems a little over the top. Having Ilana get Sayid on a plane so he can time travel to 1977, get captured, befriend Ben, get a gun and shoot him just so Ben will become a full-other who he will then ignore for 30 years to build rage. Then he brings Locke to the island so he can leave, die, get impersonated by his nemesis who will convince Ben to kill Jacob.
> 
> Come on now. I get that the show is all about fate and events having been facilitated WAY before the crash, but the idea that just about every single decision from every character over the course of many years were arranged by Jacob.
> 
> in short, facilitating people's journey to the island, sure. Facilitating all decisions and outcomes forever, not so much...


But maybe he's been doing this for far longer than just a couple of hundred years. Maybe the O815 flight crashing is the "broken" part of the universe, and the LA X reality is the fixed one. And Jacob has been trying to get the universe "fixed" in a repetitive cycle of the last couple of hundred years. Maybe he's tried this several thousand times, each time figuring how things fit a little better (the "progress"). 
Why only the past couple hundred years?

Maybe Flocke and Jacob are some kind of time cops whose job is to "fix" the universe. Flocke is tired and just wants to say "This is as close as we can get it to the way it should be, let's just go home already", but Jacob is a perfectionist who wants to get it just-so.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Roadblock said:


> I agree. I'm still watching to see how this turns out, but I have no expectation of being satisfied with the end. Too much like X-Files.


Well, I realized about 3 seasons back they could never untangle or answer any of the questions that kept being created. I am just going along for the ride and enjoying the show.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Well, I realized about 3 seasons back they could never untangle or answer any of the questions that kept being created. I am just going along for the ride and enjoying the show.


I agree. Well, I wouldn't say "ANY of the questions", but the majority.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But Jacob's game could simply involve getting the right pieces on the board. He knows Sayid is important; he doesn't necessarily know why.


Yeah that would make a lot more sense, and I hope that's the case. Like I said, to think that any entity could plan with such accuracy with no deviation despite the fact that humans are giant variable, just pushed it for me.

I think the idea that Jacob and MiB are opposing sides of the same force, and that each has been at his game for a very long time... they need people to replace them, the process which begins early in the candidates lives. They select candidates, influence their lives in ways that bring them to the island, and then as events unfold (some influenced, others through the course of human decisions/free will), those candidates are whittled down until there are only a few, and the replacement is selected. Or maybe it's a "last man standing" thing. 108 people are candidates, and the last one alive at the end of it is the true replacement.

I just think there has to be some element of free will in here otherwise, in my opinion, it pretty much renders the characters useless. What is the point of watching characters who's decisions have no real impact because the out come is already decided?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

gchance said:


> I'm getting tired of LARGE inline images. That is all.
> 
> Oh, to make this relevant: Lost.
> 
> Greg


Sorry! It's smaller now.

And to make this relevant: That's what Kate said.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Before. Catching up, wanted to give everyone a heads up that next week's episode is 1:06 long - make sure it's not clipped.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

The actual SHOW is probably still 42 minutes long. There will just be 24 aggravating minutes of interruptions -- er, I mean more (and more frequent) commercials -- to stretch it all out longer.

As far as expectations for the penultimate final episode, I will just try to suspend my disbelief enough to enjoy that episode as I have enjoyed every other episode.

It would be near impossible for Darlton to be able to please everybody, as the show has been put on such a pedestal and scrutinized ad infinitum along the way. 

So we should expect and be prepared for some sort of letdown, as it is like breaking up a long term relationship on amicable grounds. There will be a hole in our hearts. 

Until the next "great show" comes along ... and there WILL be another.

Imagine if we had the internet and forums such as this when other great shows from the past finally ended. The internet makes these experiences a shared experience among virtual friends. Before that, we shared our stories around the water cooler at work the next day, or kept it all to ourselves. But today we can keep recalling and complaining and analyzing for days (and longer) afterwards.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok so with respect to the past few posts, remember that there IS an element of "chance"/unknown/risk with respect to Jacob's moves/actions. He told Hurley that the reason he kept him in the dark was because he couldn't RISK Hurley and Jack not coming to the lighthouse.

He's TRYING things.. He can put things in place, but there's still the risk of failure because of people's pesky free will (although that free will doesn't extend to allowing people to have their cake and eat it too - they only get to do things once - no changing anything).

Which makes me think that for Jacob and Smokey, it's probably a lot like what DESMOND is going through now. They can see what WOULD happen (to some level of depth) and try changing what DOES happen (once) to be something different. What happened, happened, but what MIGHT happen (rendered for you in full resolution crystal clear "visions") doesn't need to happen. Just remember Desmond repeatedly saving Charlie. That's what Jacob/Smokey are doing.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Which makes me think that for Jacob and Smokey, it's probably a lot like what DESMOND is going through now. They can see what WOULD happen (to some level of depth) and try changing what DOES happen (once) to be something different. What happened, happened, but what MIGHT happen (rendered for you in full resolution crystal clear "visions") doesn't need to happen. *Just remember Desmond repeatedly saving Charlie*. That's what Jacob/Smokey are doing.


Excellent hypothethis. The whole Desmond's specialness story arc can be seen in a different perspective when we think of what Jacob and unLocke are attempting to do as they manipulate, with mixed success, the human chess pieces, some 6 of whom are more important than others.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I agree. Well, I wouldn't say "ANY of the questions", but the majority.


I disagree. Maybe if you count "number of questions anyone could have", you'd be right. But just as I'm sure there there will be any number of niggling smaller questions that were not answered, I'm equally confident that the majority, if not all, of the major questions _will_ be answered (or at least the answer is easily deducible).

I personally don't get too upset of a small mystery here or there is not addressed directly.


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## tgrim1 (Sep 11, 2006)

betts4 said:


> I wonder how many others that Jacob touched that failed over the hundreds of years that it seems he was there.


If they can all fit on the degrees of a compass (as in The Lighthouse) then <360. 

Hey, maybe somehow Jacob only got 360 chances to get it right and now he's down to 6?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

getreal said:


> As far as expectations for the penultimate final episode, I will just try to suspend my disbelief enough to enjoy that episode as I have enjoyed every other episode.


Why are there expectations for the second to last episode?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But Jacob's game could simply involve getting the right pieces on the board. He knows Sayid is important; he doesn't necessarily know why.


Now I feel bad about the one line I deleted from my post: "The difference is that Jacob wants the chess pieces to have free will." But Rob hit it just right - the pieces have to be in place, even though they may not do what you want them to do. This isn't about control, it's all about faith. Again. 

Jacob is not micromanaging every step, every choice. His comment about Ben (via Miles) when Ben was stabbing him proves that. He hoped he was wrong. Plus, he was very clear to Ben beforehand that Ben had a choice. He didn't say which was right and which was wrong, just that Ben got to make that choice. He also told Hurley that Jack needed to stare out awhile and decide for himself what he needed to do. No Type-A guy, this Jacob.

Smokey, on the other hand ...


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

betts4 said:


> I wonder how many others that Jacob touched that failed over the hundreds of years that it seems he was there.


Good point, and you wonder if this is the first time around the ol' Time Merry-Go-Round for everyone. How many times has Jacob tried?


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

I wonder if the "madness" in Claire and now apparently in my man Sayid is permanent or possibly if unLocke fails or is terminated, the folks return to their prior personalities? Not that Sayid, an ex Iraqi interrogator was Mr Sunshine.

Watching Kate react to the folks in unLocke's camp immediately after Claire's attack on her was priceless. There's former good buddy Sayid, who was at best indifferent as Kate was assaulted, and then there's Claire, the woman Kate came back to rescue, but now with murder in her heart, plus good Ol' Zombie Locke. Great group of folks to spend a night in the forest with.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

gchance said:


> Ford should have glasses though.


Maybe in this timeline he's got contacts.



UnLocke said:


> They think they need to protect the island from me, but all I want to do is leave.


Maybe the Onion was more right than they could ever have imagined last year... 



T-Wolves said:


> But it did make me think about Faraday again, and about what he might've been doing in Ann Arbor for 3 years.


Seeing Charlotte last night made me realize we might get to see the flashsideways Faraday again, and the thought of seeing him again got me excited. I hope so! Somehow.



getreal said:


> She was a total doppelganger for Tina Fey. That's what distracted me while she was onscreen.


Wait, they got Sarah Palin to appear on _Lost_?


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

betts4 said:


> Well, I realized about 3 seasons back they could never untangle or answer any of the questions that kept being created. I am just going along for the ride and enjoying the show.


Me too. I can say that, at this point in nuBSG, I was convinced they wouldn't answer the questions, I was getting more and more disappointed and frustrated, and I was just hanging around to see how it ended. With Lost, I'm excited, and still very involved in the ride!


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## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> I wonder if the "madness" in Claire and now apparently in my man Sayid is permanent or possibly if unLocke fails or is terminated, the folks return to their prior personalities? Not that Sayid, an ex Iraqi interrogator was Mr Sunshine.


Or perhaps the madness is slowly leaving Claire and moving to Sayid. Danielle's death and Claire's madness happened at about the same time, didn't they?


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Yeah that would make a lot more sense, and I hope that's the case. Like I said, to think that any entity could plan with such accuracy with no deviation despite the fact that humans are giant variable, just pushed it for me.
> 
> I just think there has to be some element of free will in here otherwise, in my opinion, it pretty much renders the characters useless. What is the point of watching characters who's decisions have no real impact because the out come is already decided?


You've just identified one of the largest underlying themes of LOST: Freewill vs. destiny; science vs. faith. This has been established as far back as season one and it's still being sussed out.



betts4 said:


> Well, I realized about 3 seasons back they could never untangle or answer any of the questions that kept being created. I am just going along for the ride and enjoying the show.


What would you consider questions that can never be untangled or answered? Never is a strong word to be used here, especially with quite a few hours left.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

tewcewl said:


> You've just identified one of the largest underlying themes of LOST: Freewill vs. destiny; science vs. faith. This has been established as far back as season one and it's still being sussed out.


I get that it's part of the idea of the show, sometimes it just goes to far for me. I can get on board with the idea of destiny and and overall design to things, but it gets harder to swallow when it goes down to that level where every single decision is already determined. I like the idea of broad strokes being planned out but it's the minutia (sp) where it seems like the characters simply have NO choice in ANYTHING, that I think kind of sucks, and I hope they don't take it to that deep of a level.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

So, anyone think it is possible that we're seeing more than two realities? There's the "Island" Reality, and what we've been calling the "Sideways" Reality. But what if each sideways reality is a separate and distinct variation? We are seeing what each character's reality would have been had they not been touched by Jacob. But are we seeing one sideways reality that all the characters share in common, or multiple realities with each character at the center of their own reality? 

In Det. James Ford's (sideways) reality, Anthony Cooper was still the conman that caused the death of his parents. Yet in Locke's (sideways) reality, Anthony Cooper seems like a decent guy - Locke has maintained a relationship with him and he will be an invited guest to Locke's wedding. Is this disparity because there are two Coopers, and the one in the Detective's reality is a darker character than the one in Locke's? (Of course, the argument could be made that it's perfectly possible for Cooper to have been a conman and yet still have a good relationship with Locke). 

This would also explain the way Sawyer reacted in Kate's reality - he facilitated Kate's escape in the elevator - which is not the way one might expect an officer of the law to act. Maybe because, in Kate's reality, he wasn't a detective? (Of course, the argument could be made that he let her escape because he didn't want to be placed at the international terminal and he was just acting out of self interest).

I'm not sure I buy into this -- in fact I'm pretty sure I don't -- but it's an intriguing possibility. If there are going to be multiple realities, why stop at two?


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

You kind of just blew my mind... the only flaw I can find is that Ford recognized Kate in his reality, so I don't know about that. Plus the way everyone interacted in LAX and continue to interact leads me to think it's probably night right. If you think about it, that means the 815 we saw in LA X would have to be constant throughout each of these realities, since we know all of the X-timeline characters were on the flight. Plus it would be weird if the "main timeline" included a certain set of characters, where the flight in every single person's seperate X-reality is exactly the same. 

I think it's just as plausible that Locke's dad is still a ******, he just doesn't know it. Secret double life? Was a conman in the 70's but turned a new leaf? He likely didn't con Locke in this timeline and has a good relaitionship with him, but that doesn't mean he's not a con-man.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I think it's just as plausible that Locke's dad is still a ******, he just doesn't know it. Secret double life? Was a conman in the 70's but turned a new leaf? He likely didn't con Locke in this timeline and has a good relaitionship with him, but that doesn't mean he's not a con-man.


Exactly. Or it could be the father that was mentioned in the Locke episode may not even be Cooper. He was in the foster child system. It could well be that the father he and Helen are speaking of in this reality is a foster dad, or an adopted father. Just like the father Miles mentioned in this episode might not be Pierre Chang, his real dad, but a step father, or a man who adopted him and has raised Miles as his son.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jking said:


> Exactly. Or it could be the father that was mentioned in the Locke episode may not even be Cooper. He was in the foster child system. It could well be that the father he and Helen are speaking of in this reality is a foster dad, or an adopted father. Just like the father Miles mentioned in this episode might not be Pierre Chang, his real dad, but a step father, or a man who adopted him and has raised Miles as his son.


I wouldn't hope they'd be above fake references like that.

The references both to Locke's father in the Locke episode and to Miles' father in the Sawyer episode were kind of crammed in there with no real purpose other than that we know who the fathers are and we should be surprised that these characters are speaking to their fathers in this reality.

I'm not buying the everyone-had-their-own-sideways theory, because of the season premiere that showed everybody.

We know that in Locke's reality, Jack Shepard gave him a business card in the airport. We also know that happened in the season premiere. Does that mean the season premiere is in Locke's reality? If so, how would we ever know that?


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

You know, with the series winding to a close, I decided to go back to the beginning and start watching the entire series again via Netflix streaming from episode one. I had planned on waiting until after the series finale, but I got anxious.

I'm discovering some very interesting things, now that we know what we know. There are little scenes, comments, pieces of dialog, that now seem very revealing in hindsight., the vast majority of which I had completely forgotten.

One major theme I'm noticing, at least in Season One, is that Locke's actions seem entirely odd and suspicious from the very beginning. Much more than I remember. I came to the scene early on where Locke is confronted (via face to face camera perspective) by Smokie. At that point, they hadn't revealed the "monster" to be smoke. The monster seems to be staring down Locke from above. The scene cuts to a break, but when they come back, we never see what happened when Locke stared down this unseen monster. Later on, Locke tells someone, "I've stared into the eye of the island". Even more interesting, I counted at least 3 times so far where someone (Jack, twice) goes running into the jungle (when Jack was chasing a vision of his father), but suddenly he runs into Locke instead. Another time, Jack thinks he sees Christian, but he falls backward, tumbles down an embankment, but who is there to save him...Locke. There seems to be a lot of close appearances of the smoke monster "noise" with suddenly Locke close by.

Is it possible, in some wild way (haven't figured out how, exactly) there was some kind of switcheroo with "the real Locke" way back then? Locke seems to know too much, feel too much, and happen to be in the neighborhood a LOT when Smokie is around. I can't help but think that in the end, we're going to find out something was amiss as early as Season One. Or were these events just all coincidence? I do think that Smokie is responsible for shape-shifting into all of the visions of people, supposedly dead or not there, that have appeared to folks over the series.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

AGH!!! I just found out I have to travel for work tomorrow.. Won't be back until Wednesday night.  Of all damned nights..

If only I owned a device that could somehow delay and "hold on" to the television broadcast signal so that I could watch it later.. something like a television capacitor or something..


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> Is it possible, in some wild way (haven't figured out how, exactly) there was some kind of switcheroo with "the real Locke" way back then? Locke seems to know too much, feel too much, and happen to be in the neighborhood a LOT when Smokie is around. I can't help but think that in the end, we're going to find out something was amiss as early as Season One. Or were these events just all coincidence? I do think that Smokie is responsible for shape-shifting into all of the visions of people, supposedly dead or not there, that have appeared to folks over the series.


I think it's entirely possible (even likely) that Smokey was looking out for Locke all along. But already switched? No way...that would mean he was faking his big crisis of faith that was so central to the story during the Late Hatch Period, and again after he left the island.

Locke was strong and in control when things were going the way he thought they should. But when they didn't, he fell apart. I think Smokey is made of much sterner stuff.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> One major theme I'm noticing, at least in Season One, is that Locke's actions seem entirely odd and suspicious from the very beginning. Much more than I remember. I came to the scene early on where Locke is confronted (via face to face camera perspective) by Smokie.


I don't think that was smokey. He later talked to Mr. Eko and described it as something like a white light, and Mr. Eko replied "that is NOT what I saw!".


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> AGH!!! I just found out I have to travel for work tomorrow.. Won't be back until Wednesday night.  Of all damned nights..
> 
> *If only I owned a device that could somehow delay and "hold on" to the television broadcast signal* so that I could watch it later.. something like a television capacitor or something..


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

danterner said:


> In Det. James Ford's (sideways) reality, Anthony Cooper was still the conman that caused the death of his parents. Yet in Locke's (sideways) reality, Anthony Cooper seems like a decent guy - Locke has maintained a relationship with him and he will be an invited guest to Locke's wedding. Is this disparity because there are two Coopers, and the one in the Detective's reality is a darker character than the one in Locke's? (Of course, the argument could be made that it's perfectly possible for Cooper to have been a conman and yet still have a good relationship with Locke).


You're assuming they're talking about Coopr in Locke's alt reality. IIRC, they never said his name. Maybe he was adopted in this one and had a nice dad.

[eta] Lost thread smeek. I really should comb through these walls of text, better.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I think Sawyer let Kate go in the airport because if he stopped her, he would have to get involved and it would blow his story about going to Palm Springs instead of Australia. 

Simple as that.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> AGH!!! I just found out I have to travel for work tomorrow.. Won't be back until Wednesday night.  Of all damned nights..
> 
> If only I owned a device that could somehow delay and "hold on" to the television broadcast signal so that I could watch it later.. something like a television capacitor or something..


I hope you'll come up with a catchy 4-letter word for it too, unlike "Betamax".  And you get a better designer, too.

I can't go with the Locke-as-Smokie-early theory for 2 reasons: as Rob mentioned, the crisis of faith especially when he's on top of the hatch and Desmond turns the light on. Second, it means he was dragging himself into the hole at the end of S1, when Jack dropped a stick of TNT on it.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I thought Smokey could only impersonate people that were dead.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Here's a thought. With "daddy issues" being such a central theme on Lost, wouldn't it make perfect sense if Jacob and Unlocke are father and son?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> I thought Smokey could only impersonate people that were dead.


I don't think they've specifically said that, but I also don't recall him ever impersonate a living person either.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

One thing I was thinking about is this. When Sawyer met Widmore, Sawyer said that he was there because of John Locke, and then that they both knew that it wasn't really John Locke. Sawyer also said that he would lead Locke to him.

Widmore never asked about Locke/Smokey. Sawyer volunteered it. I thought that Widmore's enemy was Ben, not Locke/Smokey. Why did Sawyer think it was Locke? Why didn't Widmore ask about Ben, the person he really hates and wanted to get off the island?


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

wprager said:


> Here's a thought. With "daddy issues" being such a central theme on Lost, wouldn't it make perfect sense if Jacob and Unlocke are father and son?


Yes! That seems so obvious now that you've said it. I wonder why I hadn't considered that before. I think you're absolutely right.

But who is the father, and who is the son?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't think they've specifically said that, but I also don't recall him ever impersonate a living person either.


Although it's certainly not definitive, the fact that Mr. Miyagi told Sayid that Smokey would appear to him as somebody he knows who's dead is a pretty strong confirmation...


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

If Smokey had switched with Locke, then he's already been off the island (his stated goal).. so that one makes no sense.

I do still think we'll see the "real" Locke come back. We've already seen parts of his personality come through in Smokey. Locke had a crazy mother, "you can't tell me what I can't do" etc... pieces of the old Locke are coming thru in Smokey. Locke wants nothing more than to stay on the island, Smokey wants nothing more than to leave. The fact that he is trapped in Locke's body now is no coincidence, and IMO, key to the endgame of Lost. I still feel John Locke or his consciousness will eventually take over some permanent role on the island. The fact that smokey knew Locke's last thought means he's still in there...

I do like the father/son possibility of Jacob/Smokey.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

MonsterJoe said:


> You're assuming they're talking about Coopr in Locke's alt reality. IIRC, they never said his name. Maybe he was adopted in this one and had a nice dad.
> 
> [eta] Lost thread smeek. I really should comb through these walls of text, better.


Didn't they show a picture of Anthony Cooper on Locke's desk?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I wonder if in the alternate universe Locke was paralysed before meeting Cooper, and Cooper felt sorry for him. If Cooper never pushed him out the window, that would explain why Jacob didn't need to be there to revive him.

Of course, maybe he still fell, but was merely televinjured, and Cooper found him unconscious, but still alive, and that's when he felt sorry him. But in that scenario Locke would have had to have reached a point where he could forgive Cooper for what he did to him.

Hopefully tonight's episode has some good answers. Otherwise I am going over to the island to release Smokey myself! (He promised to show me the rest of _Lost_ if I helped him.)


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

danterner said:


> Yes! That seems so obvious now that you've said it. I wonder why I hadn't considered that before. I think you're absolutely right.
> 
> But who is the father, and who is the son?


I've never told my son I hated him, but he's said it to me. So UnLocke would get my vote as the son. Plus he wouldn't eat fish; that's a clear indication he's a kind and not the grown up.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Also, Jacob has just had that "sad" look like a father who has been disappointed by his son. 

It also means that the endgame is probably Smokey realizing his father was right... I don't know if I like that ending at all... or maybe Jacob really is a prick and Smokey is right to rebel against him. That would be pretty good...


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> Of course, maybe he still fell, but was merely televinjured, and Cooper found him unconscious, but still alive, and that's when he felt sorry him.


Does that mean Locke was injured by Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson ?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

danterner said:


> ... what if each sideways reality is a separate and distinct variation? We are seeing what each character's reality would have been had they not been touched by Jacob. But are we seeing one sideways reality that all the characters share in common, or multiple realities with each character at the center of their own reality?


That got me to thinking pretty hard ... Jacob must've touched ME at some point in my past .... Hmmmmmm .....


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jking said:


> Exactly. Or it could be the father that was mentioned in the Locke episode may not even be Cooper. He was in the foster child system. It could well be that the father he and Helen are speaking of in this reality is a foster dad, or an adopted father. Just like the father Miles mentioned in this episode might not be Pierre Chang, his real dad, but a step father, or a man who adopted him and has raised Miles as his son.





3D said:


> Didn't they show a picture of Anthony Cooper on Locke's desk?


This. Anthony Cooper is most definitely the father Locke is planning to invite to his wedding.


Turtleboy said:


> I don't think they've specifically said that, but I also don't recall him ever impersonate a living person either.


What about the apparitions of Walt that people have seen? He's not dead.


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

Man, I'm getting excited for tonight's Richard episode. It should be a landmark episode in the series.

If you go to Lost's Facebook page,


Spoiler



(http://www.facebook.com/#!/LOST?ref=nf), there are two pictures supposedly from tonight's episode -- The Man in Black himself (not Fake-Locke, but the real MIB), and a pic of what seems to be an exasperated (maybe even angry) Jacob holding a large knife! This one's gonna be good!


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

GDG76 said:


> If Smokey had switched with Locke, then he's already been off the island (his stated goal).. so that one makes no sense


As much as I liked the theory of Locke having been turned into Smokey in Season One, we saw Locke off-island trying to recruit the Oceanic 6 to return. And then we saw his desperate suicide attempt and ultimate murder by Ben, as well as his dead body being buried on the island after unLocke walked past the corpse while carrying Ricardus off into the jungle.



DevdogAZ said:


> What about the apparitions of Walt that people have seen? He's not dead.


Walt was alluded to have incredible psychic powers, and then they got rid of his character (such an incredible wasted story opportunity!!). I would speculate that Walt's "apparitions" could be explained as astral projections with visual manifestations completely under the control of Walt himself. If only they had the Walt character without Michael's character, which stunted the potential development of the gifted child storyline. But it stuck with the established "daddy issues" thread running through most of the other main characters.

On that note, we should review the bad-Dads:

*Jack* - his Dad drank himself to death without ever showing approval to his son.
*Kate* - killed her abusive father.
*Sawyer* - his Dad killed his Mom and then himself.
*Locke* - never knew his Dad while growing up, only to find him as a conman who tried to kill him, leaving him crippled.
*Sayid* - do we know the story about his Dad?
*Sun* - Daddy was a ruthless, mysogynistic corporate/mob leader. 
*Jin* - Daddy was a lowly fishmonger.
*Hurley* - Dad is a good guy who loves his family.
*Claire* - grew up never really knowing her Dad, and then not wanting to know him when he finally showed up when she was grown.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

getreal said:


> As much as I liked the theory of Locke having been turned into Smokey in Season One, we saw Locke off-island trying to recruit the Oceanic 6 to return. And then we saw his desperate suicide attempt and ultimate murder by Ben, as well as his dead body being buried on the island after unLocke walked past the corpse while carrying Ricardus off into the jungle.


Is it possible that Smokey posed as Locke on the island at the same time real Locke was still there, and sometimes we were seeing Locke and other times we weren't?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

getreal said:


> On that note, we should review the bad-Dads:
> 
> *Jack* - his Dad drank himself to death without ever showing approval to his son.
> *Kate* - killed her abusive father.
> ...


I may be misremembering, but wasn't there an episode where we saw Sayid and his brother as children, and their father asked the brother to kill a chicken but the brother couldn't do it, so Sayid had to step in and kill the chicken to protect his brother?


aindik said:


> Is it possible that Smokey posed as Locke on the island at the same time real Locke was still there, and sometimes we were seeing Locke and other times we weren't?


But that wouldn't fit with the theory that Smokey can only take the form of a dead person.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> But that wouldn't fit with the theory that Smokey can only take the form of a dead person.


It also wouldn't fit with the fact that Locke has a definite character arc across the series, which would be destroyed if various chunks of it were suddenly attributed to unLocke.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

getreal said:


> On that note, we should review the bad-Dads:
> 
> *Jack* - his Dad drank himself to death without ever showing approval to his son.
> *Kate* - killed her abusive father.
> ...


*Hurley* - Dad was a loser that left Hurley and his mom to fend for themselves when he took off on a motorcycle. He came back when he heard that his son won the lottery.

Did Kate kill her father or Stepfather? or just a boyfriend of her mom's?


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Jin's dad was the only one who has ever been shown to have redeeming qualities in the original timeline. He was a good guy; while his mother was a complete *****-whore (literally )

Although if I remember, he may not even be Jins real father


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Did Kate kill her father or Stepfather? or just a boyfriend of her mom's?


I think the guy she killed was her biological father, but she only found out this fact as an adult (and after she killed him, I think, or maybe just before).

The person she grew up thinking was her biological father is the guy in the army who released Sayid during the Gulf war along with Kelvin Inman.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

betts4 said:


> *Hurley* - Dad was a loser that left Hurley and his mom to fend for themselves when he took off on a motorcycle. He came back when he heard that his son won the lottery.
> 
> Did Kate kill her father or Stepfather? or just a boyfriend of her mom's?


IIRC, the man Kate killed was her real father, although she grew up thinking he was only a boyfriend of her mother's and that Sam Austen was her real Dad. But I do think she knew that Wayne was her real Dad before she blew up the house.

Edit: 2 minutes too late! Aindik! (in my best Seinfeld "Newman!" voice)


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

GDG76 said:


> Jin's dad was the only one who has ever been shown to have redeeming qualities in the original timeline. He was a good guy; while his mother was a complete *****-whore (literally )
> 
> Although if I remember, he may not even be Jins real father


Yes, Jin's Dad was an okay guy, he wanted better for his son (biological or not) then he could give him and Jin went to the big city.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> One thing I was thinking about is this. When Sawyer met Widmore, Sawyer said that he was there because of John Locke, and then that they both knew that it wasn't really John Locke. Sawyer also said that he would lead Locke to him.
> 
> Widmore never asked about Locke/Smokey. Sawyer volunteered it. I thought that Widmore's enemy was Ben, not Locke/Smokey. Why did Sawyer think it was Locke? Why didn't Widmore ask about Ben, the person he really hates and wanted to get off the island?


Sawyer assumed the Smokey was Widmore's enemy because he saw Widmore's men setting up sonic pylons.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I may be misremembering, but wasn't there an episode where we saw Sayid and his brother as children, and their father asked the brother to kill a chicken but the brother couldn't do it, so Sayid had to step in and kill the chicken to protect his brother?


Isn't that part of Eko's backstory? 
Or was that where a young Eko killed a prisoner while his brother hesitated?

Also, if it WAS Sayid's story, does that mean that there were Daddy issues? Most kids on farms wind up learning to slaughter animals for food.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

NoThru22 said:


> Sawyer assumed the Smokey was Widmore's enemy because he saw Widmore's men setting up sonic pylons.


Which is a pretty good clue. Widmore didn't even ask him about Ben and where he was, did he? Still they may both be his enemy. Hard to imagine Widmore working for Jacob and Ben seems to be back on Jacob's team now.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

GDG76 said:


> Jin's dad was the only one who has ever been shown to have redeeming qualities in the original timeline. He was a good guy; while his mother was a complete *****-whore (literally )
> 
> Although if I remember, he may not even be Jins real father


I agree with you about Jin's dad, but I have to say that I don't remember the stuff about his mom at all. Not saying it didn't happen, just that I have no memory of it.


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## anuyag (Apr 18, 2006)

I am disappointed that characters such as Eko came and went and there is probably no reason why and we are probably not going to hear about it.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

anuyag said:


> I am disappointed that characters such as Eko came and went and there is probably no reason why and we are probably not going to hear about it.


I believe as do others here, that he had a purpose but pouted until they wrote him out of the show. I think he was going to be a great part of the story.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

anuyag said:


> I am disappointed that characters such as Eko came and went and there is probably no reason why and we are probably not going to hear about it.


Didn't Eko carve a reference to a biblical passage onto his walking stick? I think it was John 3:16. About how God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believed in Him shall not perish ... sorta' seems pretty relevant now if you think about it, doesn't it?


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Here's how I picture the end of the series: Somehow Jacob proves to MiB/FLocke/UnLocke that human beings have redeeming qualities. Jacob and MiB take off their body suits to reveal that they are really Kang and Kodos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kang_and_Kodos), the space aliens from The Simpsons. Kang and Kodos then have the following conversation, a la Randolph and Mortimer Duke from Trading Places:

Jacob / Kang: Pay up, ManInBlack. I've won the bet. 
Flocke / Kodos: Here, one dollar. 
Jacob / Kang: [chuckling] We took a perfectly useless psychopath like Sawyer, and turned him into a successful executive. And during the same time, we turned an honest, hard-working man like Jack into a violently, deranged, would-be killer! [laughs]

Bad Robot.

That's how the series is ending, and noone can convince me different!


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Bananfish said:


> Here's how I picture the end of the series: Somehow Jacob proves to MiB/FLocke/UnLocke that human beings have redeeming qualities. Jacob and MiB take off their body suits to reveal that they are really Kang and Kodos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kang_and_Kodos), the space aliens from The Simpsons. Kang and Kodos then have the following conversation, a la Randolph and Mortimer Duke from Trading Places:
> 
> Jacob / Kang: Pay up, ManInBlack. I've won the bet.
> Flocke / Kodos: Here, one dollar.
> ...


SPOILER TAG PLEASE!!!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

getreal said:


> Didn't Eko carve a reference to a biblical passage onto his walking stick? I think it was John 3:16. About how God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believed in Him shall not perish ... sorta' seems pretty relevant now if you think about it, doesn't it?


No. That was Rolen Stewart.

He used to sit in end zones at football games.










He's also serving 3 life sentences in jail for kidnapping.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

It's not easy to win the award for most irrelevant post in a Lost thread, but congrats TB! 

Here's the info on Eko's stick:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Eko's_stick

John 3:16 was apparently not on it.


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> But that wouldn't fit with the theory that Smokey can only take the form of a dead person.


Yes. I also believe this to be the case. In addition, only the unburied (Christian, Eko's brother) or improperly buried dead (Alex...shallow grave?) qualify. When Richard and Sawyer were negotiating the broken truce [in "Le Fleur"] Richard showed a good deal of concern over whether the bodies had been buried and how deep. And IIRC, at Richard's insistence, part of the agreement included that the Others had to take possession of the dead. At the time, it struck me that manner of burial must be of some importance and it seems to fit nicely now. Since Locke was buried, subsequent to MIB utilizing his physical form, this may be why Ilana said MIB is now stuck with Locke's body.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

avery said:


> Yes. I also believe this to be the case. In addition, only the unburied (Christian, Eko's brother) or improperly buried dead (Alex...shallow grave?) qualify. When Richard and Sawyer were negotiating the broken truce [in "Le Fleur"] Richard showed a good deal of concern over whether the bodies had been buried and how deep. And IIRC, at Richard's insistence, part of the agreement included that the Others had to take possession of the dead. At the time, it struck me that manner of burial must be of some importance and it seems to fit nicely now. Since Locke was buried, subsequent to MIB utilizing his physical form, this may be why Ilana said MIB is now stuck with Locke's body.


Interesting, and I hadn't thought of that. However, Ilana told us that MIB was stuck in Locke's body just after Sun asked them to do something with Locke's body, and before they buried him. So, that part doesn't fit. Maybe he's stuck because Locke died off island, and then was returned to the island?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Alpinemaps said:


> Interesting, and I hadn't thought of that. However, Ilana told us that MIB was stuck in Locke's body just after Sun asked them to do something with Locke's body, and before they buried him. So, that part doesn't fit. Maybe he's stuck because Locke died off island, and then was returned to the island?


I like that revised theory. :up:


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