# TiVo support of Freesat



## OzSat

The Freesat line-up is available on TiVo. You'll need to perform a Guided Setup and you'll find Freesat in the Digital Satellite section.

You may find codes for you set-top-box are available - if they are please let me know in this thread. If there are not then we need to caPTURE THE CODES.

If anybody can capture the codes - we should be able to get them into TiVo.

Follow the instructions here - but PM me once you have the file as I'm not sure Gary is available at present on the e-mail address shown.


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## Pete77

Do we think there is any likelihood the same codes are used for all boxes like Sky or can we assume that as with Freeview every box manufacturer uses their own IR codes.

At least there are only four box manufacturers to deal with for now.

Perhaps someone with a Pronto could keep buying a box from Argos and capturing the codes and then taking it back citing technical difficulties with constantly locking up etc (i.e. faulty).

Or do we think the HD and non HD versions from each manufacturer may each have their own different IR code sequence so that's 7 boxes or something to be getting on with finding the codes for.............


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## ColinYounger

Volunteering?


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## OzSat

When you buy a Sky box it has a Sky remote - and same software.

All Freesat boxes have branded remote - and each has its own style software.

It looks as if each has their own IR codes.


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## Pete77

ColinYounger said:


> Volunteering?


Sadly I don't own a Pronto although several on here do.


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## ColinYounger

What's stopping you getting one?


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## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> Sadly I don't own a Pronto although several on here do.


I'm not surprised as you're too tight to even spring for a Glo remote


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## blindlemon

ColinYounger said:


> What's stopping you getting one?


Value-for-money concerns or maybe the fact that Rupert Murdoch owns one share in Pronto


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## Maclynn

I tried a new guided set up but I am only getting the Sky options for Digital Sat.
Any idea where I am going wrong.


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## Pete77

Maclynn said:


> I tried a new guided set up but I am only getting the Sky options for Digital Sat.
> 
> Any idea where I am going wrong.


It should be a sub option of Digital Satellite at the next screen as I understand it.

i.e. if you select Digital Satellite you can then choose either Sky Digital (radio) Sky Digital (television) or Freesat. However ozsat would probably be able to provide definite confirmation on this.


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## Maclynn

Pete77 said:


> It should be a sub option of Digital Satellite at the next screen as I understand it.
> 
> i.e. if you select Digital Satellite you can then choose either Sky Digital (radio) Sky Digital (television) or Freesat. However ozsat would probably be able to provide definite confirmation on this.


Only options are Sky TV or Radio, maybe it has yet to be added.


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## OzSat

I'm checking ...


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## Gavin

blindlemon said:


> Value-for-money concerns or maybe the fact that Rupert Murdoch owns one share in Pronto


Huh, Pronto is made by Philips, RM may have a share but then again news international has shares in many companies.


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## blindlemon

Gavin said:


> Huh, Pronto is made by Philips, RM may have a share but then again news international has shares in many companies.


I was not expecting anybody to take my post seriously. Pete has a well-known dislike of RM and this seems to be an underlying reason for many of his actions


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## Maclynn

ozsat said:


> I'm checking ...


The Freesat option is working today.
Thanks.


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## Pete77

Maclynn said:


> The Freesat option is working today.
> Thanks.


Its good to hear the Freesat Tivo database issues has now been resolved.

Which make and model do you have?

Have you found any IR codes already in the Tivo database for this manufacturer that can control your Freesat box?


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## Maclynn

Pete77 said:


> Its good to hear the Freesat Tivo database issues has now been resolved.
> 
> Which make and model do you have?
> 
> Have you found any IR codes already in the Tivo database for this manufacturer that can control your Freesat box?


I have the Humax Foxsat-HD box.
No luck with a code yet. I tried both sets of Freeview code lists.


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## Pete77

Maclynn said:


> I have the Humax Foxsat-HD box.
> No luck with a code yet. I tried both sets of Freesat code lists.


Presumably you tried any Humax codes too?


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## Maclynn

Pete77 said:


> Presumably you tried any Humax codes too?


There is no option for dedicated Humax codes in the Freesat settings.


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## Pete77

Maclynn said:


> There is no option for dedicated Humax codes in the Freesat settings.


How about post Guided Setup if you manually go to the box code settings for Humax through the menus? I thought all box manufacturers and codes were then available regardless of which program source platform you had selected?


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## Maclynn

Pete77 said:


> How about post Guided Setup if you manually go to the box code settings for Humax through the menus? I thought all box manufacturers and codes were then available regardless of which program source platform you had selected?


I am afraid not.
Same long list but no Humax.


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## Automan

OZSAT,
Which FreeSat box did you end up with?

I have a Humax and somewhere in the loft I have an old pronto and would then have to find the old W2K software & interface cable to capture the codes...

Automan.


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## OzSat

Currently have HumaxHD and BushHD - but BushHD is going back.

If you can capture the codes - I'll pass them to TiVo.

Not heard from Gary to see if he can do it.


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## Maclynn

Has anyone yet found a code to operate the Humax HD Freesat box.
I have tried most of those available but had no luck yet.


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## jminhas

I woke up this morning and thought "sod it" to Sky, I have had a broken digibox for a while now and I have been putting off getting a replacement until today: when I decided to buy Freesat. Checked out Argos on-line for a standard (non HD) Freesat box and found what seemed like the only place in the South of England which is had one in stock: Uxbridge, which isn't too far from me so I reserved and picked it up and now I am in the process of installing it. Whilst I am waiting for Tivo guided setup I thought I'd set up a set in my Flickr photostream so that I could share the process as best I can with associates in this forum.

You can see the photoset here; I will add some more to the set as I progress through the setup (Sunday afternoon May 11 2008).

Best regards - Jag


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## Automan

Cool,
Does the Bush really take 11 minutes to do a scan?
Humax one I would say does it under 2 minutes.

I now get a blank EPG for E4 but no one else seems to have this issue or has not noticed...

Automan.


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## Maclynn

Automan said:


> Cool,
> Does the Bush really take 11 minutes to do a scan?
> Humax one I would say does it under 2 minutes.
> 
> I now get a blank EPG for E4 but no one else seems to have this issue or has not noticed...
> 
> Automan.


E4 is blank on my Humax as well.
Still no TiVo control codes either.


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## jminhas

The Bush box (no HD) didn't take exactly 11 minutes to do the scan - more like 7 mins, but like others have reported; no control codes presented by the Tivo were able to control the box :-(


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## 6022tivo

Have not really been keeping up with this freesat thread, and the other.

Do we have a freesat HD box with HDD yet???


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## wonderboy

I was going to ask the same thing regarding HD... It would be great to see the Euro 2008 football in HD I think this will be on BBC, what are the current options?

Is there an HD Freview box? (is there a tivo compatible one?)

if not what is involved and would be the best option for FreeSAT (not necesarily connected to Tivo, since HD would be the only reason for me to get this and I would not be cutting off my Sky sub etc)

Thanks


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## Automan

No hard drive FreeSat box till sometime after July.

Tivo Channel line-up okay for FreeSat but no IR codes yet.

Automan.


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## mikerr

wonderboy said:


> I was going to ask the same thing regarding HD... It would be great to see the Euro 2008 football in HD I think this will be on BBC, what are the current options?


Apart from sky HD and VirginMedia's V+ subscription boxes,
there are a  couple of freesat boxes


> Is there an HD Freeview box? (is there a tivo compatible one?)


Freeview (terrestrial) won't have HD channels until after analogue switchoff.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7328029.stm


> if not what is involved and would be the best option for FreeSAT (not necesarily connected to Tivo, since HD would be the only reason for me to get this and I would not be cutting off my Sky sub etc)


Seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what freesat etc actually is:

Freesat 
A satellite box & dish with a 7 day EPG
BBC HD
One off payment, no sub
(No Ch5)
Tivo has EPG, but we seem to be awating IR codes

Freesat from sky
A sky satellite digibox + dish, using sky's EPG 
BBC-HD only if its a skyHD box
Basically a normal sky setup with no sub.
One off payment, no sub (well cancel it after 3 months...)
When you cancel your sky sub, your box effectively becomes one of these.
(includes Ch4/Ch5)

"DIY sat" (FTA)
You can also access most of the free channels from the above by buying one of the many non sky digiboxes, but you get a very basic EPG then (now& next, and not even that for many channels)
BBCHD (with the right box, e.g. Pace DS810XE / DS810)
Note these also allow you to remap/hide channels as you wish (sky boxes don't)
One off payment, no sub
(No Ch4/Ch5)

All these (can) use the same dish & internal wiring - so you can replace your old sky digibox with a HD digibox (freesat or diy-sat) to get access to the free BBC-HD channel.


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## JudyB

mikerr said:


> Freesat
> A satellite box & dish with a 7 day EPG
> BBC HD
> One off payment, no sub
> (No Ch4/Ch5)
> Tivo has EPG, but we seem to be awating IR codes


According to the Freesat website here it already has C4 and will have Five "soon".
I don't know what the issues are for Five, but the C4 channels (including E4) have been gradually changing over to FTA on satellite - presumably as they sort out the various licensing issues.


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## CarlWalters

my local John Lewis should have the Humax box in tomorrow so I may pop out and get one this weekend (oh the joys of partner discount )

It seems that the only thing missing now is the IR codes to control the TiVo. 

I wonder if it's worth posting a query on the Humax support site for these?


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## martink0646

mikerr said:


> "DIY sat"
> You can also access most of the free channels from the above by buying one of the many non sky digiboxes, but you get a very basic EPG then (now& next, and not even that for many channels)
> (No Ch4/Ch5)


Hi Mike,

I don't mean to be pedantic, but HD is an option with 'DIY Sat' & considerably cheaper. See post 343 of this thread - http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=349696

Martin


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## mikerr

No probs, I wrote the above summary partially to clarify the options for myself, as well as everybody else!

Any additions welcome, I'll edit the post as we go !

BTW can tivo control your HD sat box ?


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## martink0646

mikerr said:


> No probs, I wrote the above summary partially to clarify the options for myself, as well as everybody else!
> 
> Any additions welcome, I'll edit the post as we go !
> 
> BTW can tivo control your HD sat box ?


A short answer is I don't know. The slightly lengthier answer is I haven't tried. I bought it solely for BBC HD & didn't try to connect it to TiVo because the SCART output is disabled when using HDMI & it goes against the point by recording HD in SD. I would consider it if I decided to look into the whole satellite scene (a definite possibility) & get a bigger, possibly motorised dish. & started playing with CAM's. But as it stands, I'm happy with Freeview & SKY (non sub). Alternatively I will get a Freesat HD PVR (probably the favourite).

Martin


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## mikerr

martink0646 said:


> didn't try to connect it to TiVo because the SCART output is disabled when using HDMI


Ah right, that's the key point, I though it would be handy to have it as a tivo scart source, and you could watch in HD at the same time if you were watching live...

Most boxes with HDMI seem to switch off scart output when HDMI is used,
don't know why they don't just give a simultaneous output to all outputs....


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## AMc

The Humax website in the specifications for their Freesat FOXSAT-HD box they say "Simultaneous playing of transmissions over HDMI, YPbPr or Scart". http://www.humaxdigital.com/freesat/specifications.asp

Presuming you can set 720p or 1080i over the HDMI and 576i over SCART that would work for Tivo and live HD viewing, if it limits the HDMI to 576i when SCART is enabled then it would be less helpful. From the other thread I believe that there are some owners on here who might confirm this is true or not?

My guess as to why many units either/or on SCART HDMI output is that their output chips can't do two different output variants at the same time so disable one.


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## TCM2007

mikerr said:


> Most boxes with HDMI seem to switch off scart output when HDMI is used,
> don't know why they don't just give a simultaneous output to all outputs....


I'd guess because that requires the decoding and scaling of the digital input twice, once for HD once for SD. It's obviously possible, but I can imagine that a rushed design team might skip it.


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## chimaera

TCM2007 said:


> I'd guess because that requires the decoding and scaling of the digital input twice, once for HD once for SD. It's obviously possible, but I can imagine that a rushed design team might skip it.


That's what the Sky HD box does though. It simultaneously outputs HD via both HDMI and component, and SD via SCART. There is only one decoding and scaling operation though not two. HD doesn't need to be scaled for HD and SD can be produced by scaling the already decoded HD picture down so there's hardly anything to it.


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## Automan

Got all the bits after a 2 hour search in the loft (full of retired gadgets) 

So will try tonight to capture Humax codes for use with Tivo.

Automan.


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## martink0646

mikerr said:


> Ah right, that's the key point, I though it would be handy to have it as a tivo scart source, and you could watch in HD at the same time if you were watching live...
> 
> Most boxes with HDMI seem to switch off scart output when HDMI is used,
> don't know why they don't just give a simultaneous output to all outputs....


Hi Mike,

I think the point of what I am trying to put across is that there are even cheaper options than Freesat. My cheaper option won't be for everyone & I wouldn't ever dream of losing my TiVo so I see a day soon where I am running two PVR's, one HD & TiVo until SD is no more, but that will be years yet. I would like to get a Topfield HD model & have a play with the TAP's as at a cursory glance that seems most TiVo like, but still, it WON'T be TiVo.

This is where the continued lack of support for TiVo will really start to bite. I don't blame TiVo Inc. as the business model obviously isn't there.....now. This isn't meant to start a debate over what went wrong in the past.

Martin


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## mikerr

I dunno, I'm still slightly amazed we had a freesat lineup pretty much on day one


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## Automan

ozsat said:


> The Freesat line-up is available on TiVo. You'll need to perform a Guided Setup and you'll find Freesat in the Digital Satellite section.
> 
> You may find codes for you set-top-box are available - if they are please let me know in this thread. If there are not then we need to caPTURE THE CODES.
> 
> If anybody can capture the codes - we should be able to get them into TiVo.
> 
> Follow the instructions here - but PM me once you have the file as I'm not sure Gary is available at present on the e-mail address shown.


I have created one using Gary's converter so following his instructions the attached file can be made to control the Humax FoxSat HD product.

Ozsat, is this file format okay for Tivo to add should it work okay for others with bash prompt access?

Seems okay with my one....

Automan.


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## OzSat

I've forwarded the file - hopefully I'll get some feedback one way or the other.


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## TCM2007

chimaera said:


> That's what the Sky HD box does though. It simultaneously outputs HD via both HDMI and component, and SD via SCART. There is only one decoding and scaling operation though not two. HD doesn't need to be scaled for HD and SD can be produced by scaling the already decoded HD picture down so there's hardly anything to it.


Whether the hd need scaling depends on what res the HDMI is set to.

Didn't say it can't be done, but it's simpler to only have one active.


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## 6022tivo

I am going to wait for the HDD box in the summer. Humax do a good freeview guide and recording features, I hope it is ok for freesat.. I understand ITV make you press the Red button for HD, interesting to see how that works with the HDD box?

Did I previously see a link to the manual for the HDD box on the humax site posted a few days ago?


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## Automan

HDD Box has a part code but still no documentation.
EPG on new Freesat seems no better than Sky's and does not update / change when a program starts/ends but at the time in the table.

No extra data about content of recordings either 

New Humax IR codes seem to be okay with my box recording four programs during the night.

Also a Tivo channel lineup change 

Automan.


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## terryeden

Slightly controversial, I know, but is TiVo the be all and end all? After looking at some other PVRs, it seems that the (unmodded) TiVo has the following advantages over the competition.
* Two Week EPG - sometimes
* Season passes - which mostly work
* Wish lists
* Suggestions
* Pretty good UI - but no longer state of the art

Some other PVRs I've seen have video previews of every show you've recorded, they've got lossless digital video and audio, they natively support extraction or burning to DVD, community software, access from the net/mobile, HD support, removable subtitles.

While a hacked TiVo has some of these advantages, it's increasing clear that it is far behind the competition. Don't get me wrong, at the moment there's nothing I'd rather have working in the background while I'm on holiday for several weeks - but other than that...

I guess I'm feeling left out - I see all the adverts on this site for THX certified TiVos and I WANT but I can't have.

Time to build a MythTV box that subscribes to Tribune?


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## mikerr

The short answer is that while many PVRs appear to offer similar features, they are often clunky and unresponsive in operation.
Maybe we are due another "alternatives to tivo" thread...?


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## 6022tivo

I wonder if we can use the clever Tivo to control a Humax HD Freesat HDD box (Out in July)...

For example, the tivo can change the channel and end it with a record button code, so the humax records when tivo tells it to???

Just a idea, but the humax would probably only record the end of the program it has changed to with the tivo padding??..

Hmmm. Bit of a pointless post, but I will leave it here.


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## mikerr

We already have that functionailty with tivo + skyHD: hack to get skyHD to record the same as tivo
so it would only need the IR codes for the humax to be added


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## 6022tivo

mikerr said:


> We already have that functionailty with tivo + sky+:
> so it would only need the IR codes for record added.


Really.. Ohh Ok, you would have to get the padding sorted tho, otherwise it will just record the last 3 minutes of the program before..

So my tivo could tell the humax to record the programs in HD???

I suppose it also depends on how ITV implement the HD, I understand to get ITV in HD you have to press the interactive red button??


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## Pete77

terryeden said:


> * Two Week EPG - sometimes


Three weeks not two weeks for all non BBC, ITV, C4, Five satellite channels for which Tivo has EPG listings. Also this three weeks of data is updated daily.


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## Maclynn

Automan said:


> HDD Box has a part code but still no documentation.
> EPG on new Freesat seems no better than Sky's and does not update / change when a program starts/ends but at the time in the table.
> 
> No extra data about content of recordings either
> 
> New Humax IR codes seem to be okay with my box recording four programs during the night.
> 
> Also a Tivo channel lineup change
> 
> Automan.


I would like to thank you for taking the trouble to capture the Humax codes
Hopefully TiVo will send them to us all soon.
Mike.


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## Automan

Maclynn said:


> I would like to thank you for taking the trouble to capture the Humax codes
> Hopefully TiVo will send them to us all soon.
> Mike.


If someone buys me a bush one I'll do that as well 

Small chance I suppose they use the same IR codes?

Automan.


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## OzSat

a rose bush ?

I think I tried the Bush HD remote and it didn't do anything to the HumaxHD.


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## Automan

Humax still working well with Tivo and I don't think it has failed once on a channel change (just using front blaster with Humax on top of Tivo).

Humax did seem to reboot once (captured by Tivo recording).
Picture froze, Humax bootup banner and returned to the channel it was on...

I got a Bush SD FreeSat box today so will capture it's IR codes for Tivo support over this weekend.

Automan.


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## Automan

Must give Bush bonus points for the shortest ever mains lead attached to a consumer product NOT!

Anyway, IR response seems very poor using IR Blaster and have to use Slow speed - maybe better with wand which I cannot find.

BTW, remove protective foil from box front and I think IR sensor is about 2/3rd the way accross.

Again, if you have ftp, hyperterminal access you can test the codes.

As per http://www.garysargent.co.uk/tivo/prontoconverter/index.php

I did it all from hyperterminal BTW...

TYPE THIS: cd /tmp

Now you need to get the .tcl script file into this directory. For example "cat" to a file and copy and paste in windows hyperterminal:

TYPE THIS: cat > newir.tcl

Then paste the contents of the file you downloaded above into your terminal window and send CTRL-D to end.

Now type the following three commands:

tivosh
source newir.tcl
setcodes

You need to now reboot your TiVo for the new codes to become effective. Make sure you switch to the correct IR codes in TiVo's setup menus. Select code manufacturer PACE and code 20000.

Note that future IR updates from TiVo may reset these changes!

Good luck and please comment on results.

Automan.


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## Automan

Tivo Thinks CHN 114 is ITV2+1

This channel is not yet on the air for whatever reason.

Automan.


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## Automan

Still cannot find my magic wand but have found it works quite well if the Bush box is 1.5 inches above the Tivo box (using front blaster).

In this spot I can use 20000 Fast with no problems.

Automan.


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## AMc

Hi Automan, my folks have the humax on order (no freeview signal at their new place). 
Are the codes with Tivo yet?


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## Automan

AMc said:


> Hi Automan, my folks have the humax on order (no freeview signal at their new place).
> Are the codes with Tivo yet?


Not that I know of...

Ozsat may have more information....

Automan.


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## OzSat

I'm waiting for feedback on the BushSD and FoxsatHD codes.

I think the guy may have been away last week.


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## Pete77

ozsat said:


> I'm waiting for feedback on the BushSD and FoxsatHD codes.
> 
> I think the guy may have been away last week.


Is there no chance of Gary being able to arrange to give you a training session to hand on the mysterious black arts regarding Tivo IR code final preparation, given that he now seems to be largely preoccupied with other (non Tivo related) matters.

Or how about another keen forum member with both the time and apparent inclination, such as blindlemon or mikerr, being trained up by Gary in what is required?


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## OzSat

He passes the file onto TiVo - I think that's it.


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## Pete77

ozsat said:


> He passes the file onto TiVo - I think that's it.


Surely its time for you to be promoted to officially take over Gary's role and given details of his contacts at Tivo then?


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## OzSat

His contacts are the same as mine.


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## Pete77

ozsat said:


> His contacts are the same as mine.


Can't you pass these IR remote code files on to Tivo then?

Why does it need to wait for a Gary to have a now seemingly rare free moment to deal with the matter?


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## OzSat

They were passed to TiVo as soon as Automan provided them - the guy at TiVo who processes them appears to be on leave.


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## Pete77

ozsat said:


> They were passed to TiVo as soon as Automan provided them - the guy at TiVo who processes them appears to be on leave.


OK sorry I clearly misunderstood and thought it was Gary who was away on holiday.

Its good to hear that you are also able to pass files containing new IR codes across to Tivo. Its interesting that processing of these files there seems to be a specialist job confined to one individual.


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## Automan

Pete77 said:


> Its interesting that processing of these files there seems to be a specialist job confined to one individual.


Only one Tivo employee left in the company who knows about Series 1 machine software 

Automan.


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## OzSat

No - only one tech person in TiVo I deal with!


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## AMc

Thanks for capturing them (Automan) and passing them on (ozsat) hopefully we'll see them soon. AFAIK my folks Humax hasn't been picked up yet. I'm still recovering from helping them buy a new TV on Saturday.


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## AENG

What did they buy? Did you agree witht the choice?


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## OzSat

The HumaxHD codes are now available - you'll need to force a download to get them unless you just wait for the next auto download.

The Humax code is 20073. Correct IR database is 304.

Many thanks to 'automan'.

PM me if you have any issues.


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## OzSat

The BushSD codes are now available - you'll need to force a download to get them unless you just wait for the next auto download.

The Bush(UK) code is 20074. Correct IR database is 305.

Many thanks to 'automan'.

PM me if you have any issues.


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## Pete77

What has happened about the Goodmans and the Grundig SD Freesat boxes?

dixons.co.uk still claim to stock the Goodmans SD unit.

See www.dixons.co.uk/product.php?sku=500227&camp_id=froogle

and Melksham Satellite reckon they have some of the Grundig SD Freesat boxes:-

See www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/melksatltd/grundig-std-sd-freesat-receiver-336-p.asp

But weren't all the Freesat boxes apart from the HD Humax model supposed to have been withdrawn from sale?


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## Automan

I think several of them are really the same inside all made by Alba so the Bush(UK) code may work...

http://www.albaplc.com/html/home.htm

EDIT:
Compare these three websites...
http://www.goodmansdigital.co.uk/
http://www.bushdigital.co.uk/
http://www.grundigdigital.co.uk/

If they do all turn out to use the same IR perhaps Tivo could add a group in the IR database just called FREESAT.

Automan.


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## Pete77

Automan said:


> I think several of them are really the same inside all made by Alba so the Bush(UK) code may work...
> 
> http://www.albaplc.com/html/home.htm
> 
> Automan.


So why do they feel it necessary to create the fiction of there being three different makes and boxes, especially when Alba, Bush and Goodmans all suffer from the same common reputation of being very poor quality and cheaply made?

Are Humax only producing an HD box and not bothering with an SD variant then? Also are the Goodmans/Bush/Alba variants only SD boxes? Or are there HD versions too?

Which companies will make the combined PVR HD boxes? Only Humax or will there be a Topfield unit too?


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## Pete77

Automan said:


> Compare these three websites...
> http://www.goodmansdigital.co.uk/
> http://www.bushdigital.co.uk/
> http://www.grundigdigital.co.uk/.


The Bush and the Grundig appear to be the same box shell as they both have volume and channel up/down buttons in the same places but the Goodmans has no volume or channel up/down buttons.

So it looks like the Goodmans boxes come off a different production line on the face of it. If not then why bother making the buttons available any different?

The Bush box also has an air grill vent on the lefthand side whilst the Goodmans box has none. I don't know about the Grundig box as we can't see the sides of that. The Goodman also has a completely different large square standby button compared to the small round one of the other two.


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## Automan

Grundig HD box does exist but I think pulled from sale (as is a Goodmans & Bush one).
Again, with luck they will use the same remote control?

I think the multiple brands are to appeal to older folks who think they are buying a brand name they can trust from there past experience.

Automan.


----------



## TCM2007

Alba = Grundig = Bush = Goodmans

Same as Audi = VW = Seat = Skoda I guess - different brands for different purposes. Although I agree the brand values of all of them are pretty similar!


----------



## Automan

Pete77 said:


> The Bush and the Grundig appear to be the same box shell as they both have volume and channel up/down buttons in the same places but the Goodmans has no volume or channel up/down buttons.
> 
> So it looks like the Goodmans boxes come off a different production line on the face of it. If not then why bother making the buttons available any different?
> 
> The Bush box also has an air grill vent on the lefthand side whilst the Goodmans box has none. I don't know about the Grundig box as we can't see the sides of that. The Goodman also has a completely different large square standby button compared to the small round one of the other two.


I think they will just have a different sub circuit board with the buttons on.

Those three websites have the manuals for their SD & HD models and the remotes (and box backs / connections) all look the same.

Automan.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Alba = Grundig = Bush = Goodmans
> 
> Same as Audi = VW = Seat = Skoda I guess - different brands for different purposes. Although I agree the brand values of all of them are pretty similar!


Whereas the brand values and the marketing channels of Audi, VW, Seat and Skoda are all very different (even the selling dealerships are separate of one another by and large). Some of their car models are the same product simply rebadged (small Seats and VWs) but many are wholly different models unrelated to the rest of the products of the parent company. Admittedly some do share the chassis, even though they do not share the same body shell attached to it.

I thought the Grundig brand in the UK was now wholly in the hands of DSG Retail Ltd? Not so sure that is the case for Alba, Bush and Goodmans.

These four brands are an odd combination as Alba and Goodmans have never produced anything but cheap rubbish but both the Grundig and Bush brands were once associated with decent quality home electrical products.


----------



## Pete77

Automan said:


> Those three websites have the manuals for their SD & HD models and the remotes (and box backs / connections) all look the same.


But why go to all the trouble of deleting the volume or channel up/down buttons on the Goodmans design. Is the price of the Goodmans any cheaper than the other two?


----------



## iankb

One reason why manufacturers have several brands is to allow retail chains to sell models with prices that can't be directly compared with those of the retailers' competitors. The retailers prefer it; especially if they have complete control of one of those brands.


----------



## Automan

Pete77 said:


> But why go to all the trouble of deleting the volume or channel up/down buttons on the Goodmans design. Is the price of the Goodmans any cheaper than the other two?


I think they all have the same amount of control buttons but in a different layout.

Re the price, is back to physcology, the consumer may think the Grundig or Bush is a good brand name with a long history of quality.

And of course the Goodmans is associated with crap 

See page 3 of the following 3 user manuals...
http://www.bushdigital.co.uk/downloads/Bush BFSAT01SD IB_Rev1-140308.pdf
http://www.goodmansdigital.co.uk/downloads/Goodmans GFSAT100SD IB-Rev1-140308.pdf
http://www.grundigdigital.co.uk/downloads/Grundig GUFSAT01SD IB_Rev1-140308.pdf

Even the acrobat document names are nearly the same 

Granted, producing the same box under three names is crazy and it is the consumer of course that has to pay for the wasted production costs of control panels, boxes, packaging, manuals, artwork, etc....

BTW, Their quick install guides even show the basic steps to install your dish which I suspect is a mistake for the average man in the street....

Automan.


----------



## AENG

Pete77 said:


> Alba and Goodmans have never produced anything but cheap rubbish electrical products.


Not entirely true, surely? I still have a pair of Goodmans Maxim "bookcase" loudspeakers that are still (IMHO) astonishingly good for their size - for their time outstanding. The Beeb used lots of them as small monitoring LSs with attached PA designated LS3M/3 that were in service for many years.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> I thought the Grundig brand in the UK was now wholly in the hands of DSG Retail Ltd? Not so sure that is the case for Alba, Bush and Goodmans.


Grundig is complicated. It has a European operation which is 50% owned by Alba, 50% by Beko, the Turkish manufacturer of, erm, low end CE gear. However I don't think that's the Grundig which sells gear in the UK; I think that's 100% Alba.

They define the barnds like this:

Alba  high volume, lead-in ranges
Bush  value for money, trusted products
Goodmans  design focus, higher specified products with
a brand heritage
Grundig  design led, mid-tier ranges,

You and I may **** an eyebrow that that!

I think they do retailer-exclusive deals on a lot of products.


----------



## Pete77

AENG said:


> Not entirely true, surely? I still have a pair of Goodmans Maxim "bookcase" loudspeakers that are still (IMHO) astonishingly good for their size - for their time outstanding. The Beeb used lots of them as small monitoring LSs with attached PA designated LS3M/3 that were in service for many years.


So one accidentally decent product in an otherwise consistent stream of crap over many years.

This is a bit like the opposite of Panasonic, with their normally market leading range of televisions, having failed to cut the mustard with their preceding (before the new now excellent range) of non 24p compatible range of plasmas.

It can happen but it is not at all typical of the long term product quality of either brand.


----------



## mikerr

> Alba and Goodmans have never produced anything but cheap rubbish but both the Grundig and Bush brands were once associated with decent quality home electrical products..


You prove the point of branding right there in your assumption of brand = quality.

Why brand the same electronics with different plastic casings?
Because consumers always buy on brand and price, not on specification or quality.

I wonder how many people have a house full of Sony gear ?


----------



## AENG

Pete77 said:


> So one accidentally decent product in an otherwise consistent stream of crap over many years.


I don't see it quite like that, Pete. The speakers I referred to were built (that's the word!) in Wembley by a genuinely engineering-oriented company that had a justified reputation for quality _at that time_. It's the wheeling and dealing since and its application to cheap and nasty products of uncertain lineage that has devalued a once proud brand.


----------



## Pete77

AENG said:


> I don't see it quite like that, Pete. The speakers I referred to were built (that's the word!) in Wembley by a genuinely engineering-oriented company that had a justified reputation for quality _at that time_. It's the wheeling and dealing since and its application to cheap and nasty products of uncertain lineage that has devalued a once proud brand.


That must have been a very long time ago. Goodmans has been used as a brand name for cheap and poor quality electrical products for at least the last 15 to 20 years.

But then I remember the days in the mid 1970s when a Grundig radio was considered in the same breath as a product from Roberts.............

Sadly Roberts too have also undermined their brand by often buying in and rebadging a range of cheap and frequently rubbishy plastic radio units from Sangean.


----------



## Automan

I suppose you can get the odd good Goodman's product as in reality they are unlikely to have actually made it other than their logo on the product.

So they could have bought a batch of good speakers perhaps from a company going into liquidation.

After all, all new Sony LCD's have panels made by Samsung in them.

I would consider the panel to be a major part of an LCD TV.

Anyway,
Anyone else tried the TiVo codes yet with any of these SD or HD Freesat boxes?

Automan.


----------



## iankb

Automan said:


> After all, all new Sony LCD's have panels made by Samsung in them.


Which is supposed to be the cheap brand out of those two ?


----------



## blindlemon

Automan said:


> I would consider the panel to be a major part of an LCD TV.


Well, it's certainly on of the biggest 

The firmware probably has a pretty substantial effect on PQ though...


----------



## Maclynn

The new Code is working well on my Humax.
Thank you TiVo and the members who got this working.
The only problem I have found,so far, is that if you let TiVo wake up the Humax to start recording it records the wrong channel.
This is because the Humax takes a long time to boot up and so it misses the channel change from TiVo.
I suppose the only way to get over this is to leave the Humax on.
Does anyone have a better solution?


----------



## cyril

blindlemon said:


> Well, it's certainly on of the biggest
> 
> The firmware probably has a pretty substantial effect on PQ though...


If you buy a Runco,Vidikron or high-end Fujitsu (and possibly B&O), I think the major cost is the R&D for the video processing software and hardware, with the panel probably coming second, as they are more than double the price of the Panasonic panels they are based on.

For Sony and Samsung I am guessing the panel is the bulk of the cost, with marketing costs coming next.


----------



## Automan

Maclynn said:


> The new Code is working well on my Humax.
> Thank you TiVo and the members who got this working.
> The only problem I have found,so far, is that if you let TiVo wake up the Humax to start recording it records the wrong channel.
> This is because the Humax takes a long time to boot up and so it misses the channel change from TiVo.
> I suppose the only way to get over this is to leave the Humax on.
> Does anyone have a better solution?


I think like with other STB's it will need to be left on all the time.

Otherwise TiVo may/will get confused about no video signal and reboot itself every few hours.

Automan.


----------



## Automan

In an email I got from freesat it says....



> All regional variations for BBC and ITV should be available by the end of June. Your box will automatically pick them up and insert them into the BBC 1 and ITV 1 slots automatically.


Automan.


----------



## siman

Maclynn said:


> The new Code is working well on my Humax.
> Thank you TiVo and the members who got this working.
> The only problem I have found,so far, is that if you let TiVo wake up the Humax to start recording it records the wrong channel.
> This is because the Humax takes a long time to boot up and so it misses the channel change from TiVo.
> I suppose the only way to get over this is to leave the Humax on.
> Does anyone have a better solution?


Does anybody know if the IR code for the Humax is generally available yet? if so how do I set it up - I checked on the latest database and Humax doesn't appear.
Cheers
si


----------



## mikerr

You might have to force a daily call for it to appear, codes are:



ozsat said:


> The Humax code is 20073. Correct IR database is 304.
> The Bush(UK) code is 20074. Correct IR database is 305.


----------



## OzSat

siman said:


> Does anybody know if the IR code for the Humax is generally available yet? if so how do I set it up - I checked on the latest database and Humax doesn't appear.
> Cheers
> si


If you have selected Digital Satellite then Freesat in Guided Setup - then they are there!

I'm not sure that all IR codes are available in all platform types.


----------



## chimaera

TCM2007 said:


> Grundig is complicated.
> 
> Alba  high volume, lead-in ranges
> Bush  value for money, trusted products
> Goodmans  design focus, higher specified products with
> a brand heritage
> Grundig  design led, mid-tier ranges


It's not really that complicated for me as I wouldn't touch any of them with a bargepole


----------



## siman

mikerr said:


> You might have to force a daily call for it to appear, codes are:


10 out of 10 did a daily call updated my IR db and repeated guided setup all seems to work really well - the Humax responds on fast setting - its very responsive indeed. 
So a BIG thank you to all involved in capturing and setting the TIVO up with the codes for the Humax box, good job indeed 

The real Shame is that there is no HD Tivo :-(

Cheers
s


----------



## AMc

My folks picked up their Humax on Saturday and I helped them set it up.

There is no screw thread female F-connector to F-Connector lead in the box - so if you're buying a box and haven't previously had a satelite box connected to your wall socket pick one up or you'll be disappointed!

Humax set up was very quick and painless, better than most Freeview boxes I've used. The unit changes channels quickly and is responsive to the remote.

Tivo Guided Setup went without a hitch using the default settings, front blaster and the first code under the Humax brand on Fast. Folks seem happy and no complaints about missed changes yet.

FWIW HD picture is very pretty and simultaneous SCART output is good. On their 26" Samsung there isn't a world of difference between standard PAL and HD but it is visible.
I also had some difficulty getting the TV to recognise the HDMI input. As always these days, turning everything off then on again resolved the problem. There is a couple of seconds delay between pressing "HDMI" on the TV remote and a picture and sound appearing so if you're in the same boat count to 10 before you decide it's not working.

Thanks to Automan, Ozsat et al for sorting out the code capture and Tivo updates.


----------



## Maclynn

Humax have just issued a software "update" which disables the HD output for component and non HD ready TVs. If you have one of these older sets dont buy one.


----------



## NickB

Guys

I'm thinking of canning Sky and getting Freesat. It seems my options are:

i) Stick with the Sky box and dish and pay £20 to Sky for the Freesat card. This also gives me the option of Sky Sports for the footy when that restarts.

ii) Buy an SD Freesat box and use my existing dish. More expensive - less chioce? Sideline this box if & when I get a HDTV

iii) Buy an HD Freesat box (in preparation for a HDTV in the near future). If I do this do I need a different dish?

Am I correct here? Any other options?

Thanks in advance


----------



## TCM2007

You don't need a different dish for an HD freesat box.


----------



## mikerr

NickB said:


> i) Stick with the Sky box and dish and pay £20 to Sky for the Freesat card. This also gives me the option of Sky Sports for the footy when that restarts.


Your existing sky card will turn into a freesat card when you cancel, 
so should be no need to pay £20 for a new freesat card.


----------



## AMc

Maclynn said:


> Humax have just issued a software "update" which disables the HD output for component and non HD ready TVs. If you have one of these older sets dont buy one.


I'm not sure I understand this correctly - do you mean the box will no longer downscale an HD Broadcast to SD over the SCART/component output? e.g. if you tune in to BBCHD and you're not watching over HDMI then you won't get a picture. It seems a bit pants that you can't get a component picture but presumably this is all about copy protection (absent on SCART and component but enforced over HDMI)?
I can see that would be a bit irritating but not a deal breaker for me AFAIK there is no exclusive HD content at the moment.


----------



## OzSat

What has happened in the HumaxHD box now acts upon the HDCP signalling from the broadcaster.

At present BBCHD is not switching the signal off and on, it is on fulltime - but this is not the long term plan.

When the signal is on, the stb acting upon the signal disables the HDcomponent output. There are different levels of signal so it may be the SCART is disabled as well.

The long-term plan is the Sky will also use this for HD - VirginMedia already use it.


----------



## TCM2007

BBC HD does not have the component output disabled, so I think you mean off full time?

To be picky, HDCP is the means of securing the digital signal between the STB and the TV; whether or not the analogue component is enabled is nothing to do with HDCP.

The component HD can be turned of by the broadcaster, but that's nothing to do with HDCP per se.


----------



## OzSat

It seems the component is off - or was last night!

They seem unable to automatically switch on and off at present - so I'm told it will remain on for the time being.

Although not directly HDCP - it means that you need a HDCP input on your TV to view BBCHD in HD via Freesat. Older tv's may not have this - but those displaying 'HD Ready' should.



Sky can also go this route - and there is no HDcomponent on their new boxes. It is expected that channel controlled disabling of the HDcomp output on existing boxes will be downloaded to existing boxes.

VirginMedia already use it for their HD films.


----------



## TCM2007

I haven't had SkyHD since the beginning of April, but up till then component was definitely on as I didn't use the HDMI out on my Sky box.

Sky have had channel controlled switching of component from day 1 according their PR dept - it's just that no-one has used it. Didn't know the component output had gone from the latest boxes; that was always their plan though.

God knows why they are bothering. I'm pretty sure the caps of SkyHD on Bittorrent are from a digital output not component.


----------



## Raisltin Majere

Can you explain this for the dim people?

Does this mean if I but a freesat HD box, I cannot connect it via component and expect to receive all channels?


----------



## TCM2007

If it's true that the BBC intend to broadcast with that flag set, then yes.

I can't immediately see why they would though; it's normally only Hollywood studios who want to do that, and almost all BBC HD material is home grown.


----------



## Raisltin Majere

So any channel can broadcast with that flag set?

So, ultimately, component holes may be rendered useless?


----------



## OzSat

I guess any can broadcast this way but it seems it will be an HD only option.

Sky HDcomp still works on all channels - but it seems that will change.

It is not the HDcomp is blocked full time - only when the broadcaster flags it as so which would normally be films, be events etc.

At present the BBC-HD flagging is not automated and so is on full time - they will change to be 'as required'.


----------



## bri_tal

Maclynn said:


> The new Code is working well on my Humax.
> Thank you TiVo and the members who got this working.
> The only problem I have found,so far, is that if you let TiVo wake up the Humax to start recording it records the wrong channel.
> This is because the Humax takes a long time to boot up and so it misses the channel change from TiVo.
> I suppose the only way to get over this is to leave the Humax on.
> Does anyone have a better solution?


Actually, I have found that after booking my recording(s) on Tivo, if I then create 2 *Manual* recordings, each 5 minutes long, on say, channel 101 for example, the first one set at 10 minutes prior to the start time of the programme(s) I want and the second one set at 5 minutes before, then put the Humax into standby, I achieve the desired result, ie correct channel starting at the correct time.

This is a bit messy and, in any case, after a recording, the Humax will not go back into standby until 3 hours of inactivity (no RC presses or front panel button presses)


----------



## Automan

bri_tal said:


> Actually, I have found that after booking my recording(s) on Tivo, if I then create 2 *Manual* recordings, each 5 minutes long, on say, channel 101 for example, the first one set at 10 minutes prior to the start time of the programme(s) I want and the second one set at 5 minutes before, then put the Humax into standby, I achieve the desired result, ie correct channel starting at the correct time.
> 
> This is a bit messy and, in any case, after a recording, the Humax will not go back into standby until 3 hours of inactivity (no RC presses or front panel button presses)


You may wish to check your Tivo uptime from the system info page.

I understand Tivo will keep rebooting if it sees no video signal from the STB.

Also of course any non manual recordings will also fail.

Automan.


----------



## bri_tal

Automan said:


> You may wish to check your Tivo uptime from the system info page.
> 
> I understand Tivo will keep rebooting if it sees no video signal from the STB.
> 
> Also of course any non manual recordings will also fail.
> 
> Automan.


Er..not quite with you *Automan*. My tivo does not automatically reboot when it does not find a signal and the tivo system info page does not show any uptime. Perhaps I am missing something here ?


----------



## OzSat

If there is no video signal it does reboot - but you'll not very often notice it has done. It takes well over an hour before it reboots.

There is an uptime in the System Information screen


----------



## bri_tal

ozsat said:


> If there is no video signal it does reboot - but you'll not very often notice it has done. It takes well over an hour before it reboots.
> 
> There is an uptime in the System Information screen


Sorry - Not on mine there isn't


----------



## Raisltin Majere

Mine always used to show the uptime, but I was looking for it the other day and it wasn't there.


----------



## TIVO_YORK99

You only get to see it if you've enabled "back doors" on Tivo.


----------



## bri_tal

TIVO_YORK99 said:


> You only get to see it if you've enabled "back doors" on Tivo.


Ah - That explains it. Thanks


----------



## AMc

FWIW the difference in power consumption between standby and on wasn't big enough to worry about on the Humax [EDIT]The manual only states 30W peak, so I must have guessed unless it's stamped on the box itself[/EDIT]. I set my folks one to not sleep, the option is in the menus.

Page 38/39 http://www.humaxdigital.com/freesat/FOXSATHD_100GB_040308_onlyref1.pdf

[EDIT]7.5 Other
You can configure other settings such as info display time, OSD transparency, power saving in standby and
automatic standby.
1. Press the MENU button.
2. Select Settings using the (arrow up)/(arrow down) button and press
the OK button.
3. Select Other using the (arrow up)/(arrow down) button and press the
OK button.[/EDIT]

If you're worried about the planet turn off a light, fit a low power CFL bulb in the hall, be careful how much water you put in the kettle and/or switch to a 100% renewable energy supplier like www.good-energy.co.uk.


----------



## 6022tivo

How annoying.....

I posted about a PCI card for freesat for use with MCE, and I did get some system emails from tivocommunity which I have deleted now. 

I can not find the thread in my subscribed threads, or on the forum lists..

I know it is early, anyone find it for me?? Link.

I have has a quick search also.


----------



## mikerr

'twas in the chit-chat forum not this one

Here's the link:
http://shop.blackgold.tv/product/3540.html


----------



## CarlWalters

according to several links like this http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/freesatfaq.html#otherchannels you can set up the Humax Foxsat HD box to manually scan for several hundred free-to-air channels that are not in the FreeSat line-up. I was wondering if there'd be any way of using the Humax box in this mode and still be able to keep TiVo functionality. Perhaps it would mean re-numbering channels or something?


----------



## OzSat

You can do it - but the Humax is no longer in Freesat mode - and there is no way of controlling the channel numbers for all users.

It would be a big task to undertake for a couple of users.


----------



## Pete77

CarlWalters said:


> according to several links like this http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/freesatfaq.html#otherchannels you can set up the Humax Foxsat HD box to manually scan for several hundred free-to-air channels that are not in the FreeSat line-up.


Whereas the three Alba made Freesat boxes did not have this functionality to scan for non Freesat channels putting them in violation of EU competition rules.

Alba have now said they will issue a firmware upgrade allowing other non Freesat EPG channels to be scanned for. Hopefully the methods for doing this and accessing those channels will not be as unhelpful as Sky's Add Channels function.


----------



## OzSat

I think all the boxes had (still have) stuff missing from the start as they wanted to get something out quick.


----------



## Pete77

ozsat said:


> I think all the boxes had (still have) stuff missing from the start as they wanted to get something out quick.


What was their hurry?

The answer I suppose is the Freesat exclusive launch of ITV HD, possibly in time for the Euro 2008 football......................................


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Whereas the three Alba made Freesat boxes did not have this functionality to scan for non Freesat channels *putting them in violation of EU competition rules*.


Really?

Edit: Just looked into this some more. A LibDem councilor is claiming it's against a Euro Directive, but having read the Directive itself, it plainly isn't.


----------



## mikerr

The relevent EU rule is here:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31995L0047:EN:HTML



> Article 4
> 
> In relation to conditional access to digital television services broadcast to viewers in the Community, irrespective of the means of transmission, the following conditions shall apply:
> 
> (a) *all consumer equipment*, for sale or rent or otherwise made available in the Community, capable of descrambling digital television signals, *shall possess the capability*:
> 
> - to allow the descrambling of such signals according to the common European scrambling algorithm as administered by a recognized European standardization body,
> 
> -* to display signals that have been transmitted in clear *provided that, in the event that such equipment is rented, the rentee is in compliance with the relevant rental agreement;


I doubt sky would include a manual scan if they didn't need to.


----------



## TCM2007

Indeed. and the crucial phrase is



> all consumer equipment, for sale or rent or otherwise made available in the Community, *capable of descrambling digital television signals*, shall


FreeSat equipment isn't capable of descrambling, so it doesn't apply.

That rule is, as you say, to ensure that Sky etc don't lock you out of FTA broadcasts if you don't pay them a sub.


----------



## Pete77

You have conveniently ignored the section which says:-



> to display signals that have been transmitted in clear provided that, in the event that such equipment is rented, the rentee is in compliance with the relevant rental agreement;


Since the Freesat EPG is encrypted and only available on their boxes it clearly does involved a form of Conditional Access. Hence their boxes need to ensure access to all signals "that have been transmitted in the clear".

If that was not the case why do you think Alba and Freesat have now been so keen to indicate that a firmware update is coming to provide that access on the Alba group Freesat boxes.

Humax, being more knowledgeable in European satbox matters, clearly appreciated that this was a legislative requirement at the outset.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Since the Freesat EPG is encrypted and only available on their boxes it clearly does involved a form of Conditional Access. Hence their boxes need to ensure access to all signals "that have been transmitted in the clear".


No, for one thing you don't understand the meaning of the term "conditional access".

Here, this may help you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_access

And even if it were a form of conditional access, the sentence I quoted means the later one you quoted doesn't apply. That directive applies only to boxes capable of descrambling digital TV signals, and Freesat boxes are not capable of descrambling. Ergo, not applicable.

As for why Humax etc are adding the feature - well, maybe because it's a useful product enhancement to add? Of does you business paranoia and conspiracy theorising lead to believe that firms only add new features when compelled to by law?


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> No, for one thing you don't understand the meaning of the term "conditional access".
> 
> Here, this may help you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_access
> 
> And even if it were a form of conditional access, the sentence I quoted means the later one you quoted doesn't apply.


I don't agree with you.

The net effect of the rules is that all Euro sat boxes must be able to receive all FTA signals on all frequencies and at all symbol rates that the sat box in question is capable of receiving. Any box that only permits access to some channels that are only on its own proprietary EPG for which it charges a subscription to be in is clearly introducing a form of Conditional Access.

What I never ceased to be amazed about is your absolute certainty that your own interpretation of the facts is always the correct one. Still perhaps it takes one to know one.


----------



## Pete77

P.S. I think you have ignored the significance of the phrase - "irrespective of the means of transmission".


----------



## Pete77

From your own Wikipedia link:-



> Conditional Access (abbreviated *CA) is the protection of content by requiring certain criteria to be met before granting access to this content*.


I would suggest the need for a channel to be listed in a proprietary encrypted EPG before a viewer can select and access that channel on the satbox in question is just such a form of Conditional Access. The fact that the tv signal itself is not encrypted is irrrelevant if you cannot view it by any other means on the Satbox in question.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete, it's written there in (amazingly!) simple English:

"all consumer equipment capable of descrambling digital television signals shall possess the capability to display signals that have been transmitted in clear"

Are you claiming that a FreeSat box is capable of descrambling digital television signals?

It obviously isn't.

Given that, the directive clearly does not apply to FreeSat boxes.

You can try to redefine what Conditional Access means all you like, and try to add stuff about "all frequencies" which is clearly not there at all, but it's irrelevant. The directive applies to descrambling boxes ONLY.

You may feel that the spirit of it _should _apply more widely, but it doesn't. Wishing it so won't re-write the directive.


----------



## OzSat

I think the way it works is that Sky/Freesat do not have to provide a facility to access every FTA channel - but have to offer a facility where a FTA can be accessed on the Sky/Freesat box.

So Sky offer access to all FTA channels using the standard 22 or 27.5 SR - if a channel opts to use something different then that is their choice - but Sky are not blocking them - the channel is choosing an alternate SR.

ITV-HD is FTA and is making itself hard to view - so are Sky breaking the law by not providing ways around ITV-HD's deliberate attempts to restrict viewing of their channel on Sky boxes?

Some FTA channels broadcast in ways that they know they can not be received using basic FTA receivers.


----------



## Pete77

ozsat said:


> ITV-HD is FTA and is making itself hard to view - so are Sky breaking the law by not providing ways around ITV-HD's deliberate attempts to restrict viewing of their channel on Sky boxes?


I would have thought that Sky's software engineers were hard at work looking for ways to upgrade their firmware to support ITV HD on Sky HD boxes at this very minute?

Much though I dislike Sky over many things it is hardly Sky that are at fault in this case. It is clearly the fault of ITV for using such a bizarre and non standard mechanism for broadcasting their HD channel.


----------



## OzSat

Also the Freesat exclusive ITV-HD channel is not available on Freesat boxes using postcodes for Scotland or Northern Ireland.


----------



## OzSat

Pete77 said:


> IMuch though I dislike Sky over many things it is hardly Sky that are at fault in this case. It is clearly the fault of ITV for using such a bizarre and non standard mechanism for broadcasting their HD channel.


The problem ITV have is that they have a FTA to channel which they no not want to encrypt for political reasons (with Sky) - but do not want accessed outside of the UK for copyright reasons.

Encryption will also block it out on Freesat.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Are you claiming that a FreeSat box is capable of descrambling digital television signals?


Yes an Alba group Freesat box descrambles the scrambled Freesat EPG signal that is then vital in order to obtain access to channels broadcast FTA on an Alba group Freesat box.

You must remember that ultimately if challenged this matter will be determined by a judge in a court on the basis of what the legislators intended rather than by yourself acting as judge, jury and executioner (something you have perhaps become used to when producing magazines).

Also note that the Alba group boxes are specifically hiding away a facility that all their boxes actually have to receive the FTA channels by tucking it in to a secret engineering menu command. This again I would suggest is a big no, no as the law clearly intended that any FTA satellite box would inherently be able to receive all FTA channels that its tuner could pick up given an adequate signal.

The restriction on channel viewing only being possible via the Freesat EPG is clearly a form of Conditional Access to any reasonable person rather than to a practiced word pedant such as yourself.


----------



## OzSat

TiVo now provides Freesat support for the 'Humax HDCI 2000' (use FREEVIEW code 20067)


----------



## Pete77

ozsat said:


> The problem ITV have is that they have a FTA to channel which they no not want to encrypt for political reasons (with Sky) - but do not want accessed outside of the UK for copyright reasons.


So does this mean ITV HD is not being broadcast on Astra 2D then? The copyright restriction issue for ITV1 to ITV4 and MM is now taken care of by the limited reception range (for those using normal sized dishes) of Astra 2D.


----------



## Pete77

ozsat said:


> TiVo now provides Freesat support for the 'Humax HDCI 2000' (use FREEVIEW code 20067)


Is this subject to amending the channel numbers on the box to agree with the numbers used by the Sky or Freesat EPGs?


----------



## OzSat

Pete77 said:


> So does this mean ITV HD is not being broadcast on Astra 2D then? The copyright restriction issue for ITV1 to ITV4 and MM is now taken care of by the limited reception range (for those using normal sized dishes) of Astra 2D.


Yes it does - its on pan-European Eurobird.


----------



## OzSat

Pete77 said:


> Is this subject to amending the channel numbers on the box to agree with the numbers used by the Sky or Freesat EPGs?


Yes - the users has to manually renumber the channels on the stb.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> I would have thought that Sky's software engineers were hard at work looking for ways to upgrade their firmware to support ITV HD on Sky HD boxes at this very minute?
> 
> Much though I dislike Sky over many things it is hardly Sky that are at fault in this case. It is clearly the fault of ITV for using such a bizarre and non standard mechanism for broadcasting their HD channel.


They are presumably going it as a form of quasi-encryption, since standard European boxes don't support the transmission standard (it seems to be a standard inteded for internet broadcasts). This presumably allows ITV to buy rights on a geo-targetted basis.

I'm guessing, but I can't think of another reason?

It may be possible for a firmware upgrade to enable Sky oxes, but it may not be within their hardware capabilities.


----------



## Pete77

ozsat said:


> Yes it does - its on pan-European Eurobird.


Oh what a tangled web.

If ITV can be shown to have deliberately used a transmission method for an FTA station that prevents a competitor's HD satellite boxes receiving it FTA then I can imagine that Sky's lawyers will be working on finalising the writ to challenge this as we speak.............


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Yes an Alba group Freesat box descrambles the scrambled Freesat EPG signal that is then vital in order to obtain access to channels broadcast FTA on an Alba group Freesat box.


An EPG isn't a television signal.



> This again I would suggest is a big no, no as the law clearly intended that any FTA satellite box would inherently be able to receive all FTA channels that its tuner could pick up given an adequate signal.


The directive is entirely silent on requirements for FTA boxes, as I've quoted above it only applies to descrambling boxes.



> The restriction on channel viewing only being possible via the Freesat EPG is clearly a form of Conditional Access to any reasonable person rather than to a practiced word pedant such as yourself.


No, it's not. For one thing "Conditional Access" has a technical meaning in the context of digital TV, and it doesn't mean "being included in the EPG".

For another, even when looking just at the plain English meaning, the word "conditional" implies able to be changed depending on circumstances, in this context the payment of a sub or insertion of a decryption card into the STB. You quoted this meaning yourself above. As access to a channels not on the FreeSat EPG cannot be changed (you simply can't access them) it is not "conditional".


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Oh what a tangled web.
> 
> If ITV can be shown to have deliberately used a transmission method for an FTA station that prevents a competitor's HD satellite boxes receiving it FTA then I can imagine that Sky's lawyers will be working on finalising the writ to challenge this as we speak.............


On what basis?

ITV can transmit however it likes.

It's the BBC which has an obligation to be platform neutral.

Sky are the last people who would be looking for a legal ruling that someones transmissions must be receivable on a 3rd party's box after all.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Sky are the last people who would be looking for a legal ruling that someones transmissions must be receivable on a 3rd party's box after all.


But this is an FTA transmission for which no sub is required. Hence ITV and Freesat are forcing you to buy a certain make of satellite box to get the ITV HD FTA station. I am sure this is still a contentious and potentially an anti competitive thing to do under EU legislation.

There again Ofcom allows Sky to get away without providing a CAM that will receive their service for satellite boxes not produced under an agreement with Sky. This again seems to be anti competitive but Ofcom has so far failed to address the matter.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> An EPG isn't a television signal.


In your opinion.

But if an FTA television signal cannot be accessed on a sat box without also being able to access an encrypted EPG a clever lawyer might be able to argue they are one and the same thing.

TCM I am sure that you have a missed vocation as either a politician or a barrister as you do so seem to enjoy being able to to try and argue the other guy in to the ground.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> But this is an FTA transmission for which no sub is required. Hence ITV and Freesat are forcing you to buy a certain make of satellite box to get the ITV HD FTA station. I am sure this is still a contentious and potentially an anti competitive thing to do under EU legislation.
> 
> There again Ofcom allows Sky to get away without providing a CAM that will receive their service for satellite boxes not produced under an agreement with Sky. This again seems to be anti competitive but Ofcom has so far failed to address the matter.


ITV choose not to charge for it, but there isn't some status of having a right to receive it just because it's FTA. If ITV want to make it exclusively available to one platform or another that's entirely a commercial decision for them.

I think it's hard to see the actions of ITV HD (audience = 1,000? 10,000?) being anticompetitive to poor little Sky (audience 10 million plus).


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> I think it's hard to see the actions of ITV HD (audience = 1,000? 10,000?) being anticompetitive to poor little Sky (audience 10 million plus).


What about in two years time when there may be a lot of Freesat HD PVRs out in the marketplace serving 2 or 3 million homes?

TCM are you sure shouldn't you be taking your yacht out for a spin or getting your classic car out of the garage on a fine summer's day like this.


----------



## OzSat

An EPG is a data transmission - a television signal must have a picture by definition!


----------



## TCM2007

You can't be anti-competitive from the weak position. You're just being competitive if your small. You don't have a monopoly position to abuse.


----------



## Pete77

ozsat said:


> An EPG is a data transmission - a television signal must have a picture by definition!


Doesn't an EPG data signal still lead to a picture being presented on a tv screen though?

And I can watch a television station (eg BBC News) on my computer now. But I don't think that it has arrived on it via a television signal?


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> You can't be anti-competitive from the weak position. You're just being competitive if your small. You don't have a monopoly position to abuse.


ITV is hardly small as a UK broadcaster is it. In fact I believe it is watched by far more viewers than any of Sky's stations are.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Doesn't an EPG data signal still lead to a picture being presented on a tv screen though?
> 
> And I can watch a television station (eg BBC News) on my computer now. But I don't think that it has arrived on it via a television signal?


If you're watching broadcast TV then it's a TV signal you're watching. Signals doesn't mean a radio frequency carrier wave.

You're scarping the bottom of the barrel now!


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> ITV is hardly small as a UK broadcaster is it. In fact I believe it is watched by far more viewers than any of Sky's stations are.


But it is no sense a monopoly, and in terms of HD - which is the point in question as SD ITV is on Sky's plaform - it is tiny.


----------



## OzSat

Pete77 said:


> Doesn't an EPG data signal still lead to a picture being presented on a tv screen though?
> 
> And I can watch a television station (eg BBC News) on my computer now. But I don't think that it has arrived on it via a television signal?


You don't need an EPG to receive the picture.

All Freesat channels are available on (almost) any satellite receive - even the Sky box can receive them all.

The Freesat EPG is a 7-day presentation of schedule information along with useful channel numbering - for those who pay to be a part of it.

An off-the-shelf satellite receiver will offer you all the same channels and many more - but you'll only get the now-and-next programme information.

The non-Sky/non-Freesat stb provides a basic EPG of the channels you have selected and the EPG numbers you have selected.

Without the fixed channel numbers and 7-day schedule - marketing is useless as many people would not have easy access to your channel and programme planning goes out of the window.

The Sky and Freesat EPGs are just useful tools which channels pay to be a part of.


----------



## Pete77

ozsat said:


> The Sky and Freesat EPGs are just useful tools which channels pay to be a part of.


But surely on the Alba group Freesat boxes (Grundig, Goodmans and Bush) the original firmware has been written in such a way as to prevent access to any channel that is not in the Freesat EPG and there is no publicly accessible alternative in the firmware that lets you watch FTA channels not in the Freesat EPG.

It would seem that acting on legal advice that Alba and Freesat have now had second thoughts and plan to make the standard European sat box mode available too. Had they not done that then they probably were in breach of EU competition laws.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> It would seem that acting on legal advice that Alba and Freesat have now had second thoughts and plan to make the standard European sat box mode available too. Had they not done that then they probably were in breach of EU competition laws.


No, it would seem that a LibDem local councillor is claiming that his threat of legal action in a Pete-style stroppy letter has made them add a feature which was actually already there.

There's no evidence at all that his letter had the slightest influence on them - in fact they say it was always intended to activate the feature once they were happy it was working properly.

Unlike you to be believing a politician's claims!

And as has been explained, there was no breach of EU Directives (not competiton laws - the directive is to encourage uptake of 16:9 and HD TV)


----------



## OzSat

Pete77 said:


> But surely on the Alba group Freesat boxes (Grundig, Goodmans and Bush) the original firmware has been written in such a way as to prevent access to any channel that is not in the Freesat EPG and there is no publicly accessible alternative in the firmware that lets you watch FTA channels not in the Freesat EPG.
> 
> It would seem that acting on legal advice that Alba and Freesat have now had second thoughts and plan to make the standard European sat box mode available too. Had they not done that then they probably were in breach of EU competition laws.


If it was legal advice I don't think they would be there yet - I would assume the plan was to add it as soon as they could.

Most boxes will be adding things during the coming months.

Even Sky continue occasional extras add-ons - years after the launch.


----------



## Sneals2000

Pete77 said:


> Yes an Alba group Freesat box descrambles the scrambled Freesat EPG signal that is then vital in order to obtain access to channels broadcast FTA on an Alba group Freesat box.


The Freesat EPG isn't "scrambled" in the accepted use of the word as I take it - i.e. encrypted.

The Freesat EPG is broadcast as a FTA data channel containing data in a proprietary compressed format, in the same way as Sky's EPG is broadcast. (Sky's was reverse engineered years ago...) The data is not encrypted, it is just not in a format that is currently in the public domain...

The difference may seem semantic but it isn't.


----------



## Sneals2000

ozsat said:


> You don't need an EPG to receive the picture.
> 
> All Freesat channels are available on (almost) any satellite receive - even the Sky box can receive them all.


With the exception of the non-Sky HD friendly ITV HD "service", which only SOME FTA boxes can receive currently.

ITV are careful to refer to ITV HD as a "service" rather than a channel. Presumably they are considering it an additional service in the same way as audio description and subtitling are?


----------



## Sneals2000

Pete77 said:


> And I can watch a television station (eg BBC News) on my computer now. But I don't think that it has arrived on it via a television signal?


I believe, currently, in legal terms it probably has. The definition of broadcasting doesn't imply radio frequency transmission AIUI - it is any form of transmission including IP.

AIUI watching a broadcast channel via IPTV/PC Streaming - such as the BBC News Channel, BBC Three, and now BBC One, requires a UK TV Licence...

Watching downloaded or streamed content that isn't currently being broadcast via the iPlayer, iTunes, or a DVD player, does not, as that is not a "broadcast".


----------



## Richardr

I believe that the rules quoted earlier have been superseded.

The current EU Directive is:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2002:108:0051:0077:ENDFsee Annex VI.

but of course EU Directives are not law - it is up to governments to put them into domestic law, and our current version is:

The Advanced Television Services Regulations 2003 see para 5.

I think it is still ambiguous, but I tend towards TCM2007's interpretation, unless you read decoding MPEG2 and MPEG4 transmissions as being unscrambling.


----------



## Pete77

Richardr said:


> I think it is still ambiguous, but I tend towards TCM2007's interpretation, unless you read decoding MPEG2 and MPEG4 transmissions as being unscrambling.


It all depends on how good your lawyer is and whether anyone is prepared to go to court over it at the end of the day.


----------



## TCM2007

Ah, the British law. Takes a plain English Euro directive and make it gibberish!

Still, at least we have a legal definition of conditional access:



> "conditional access system" means any system, facility, arrangements or technical measure under or by means of which access to programme services requires-
> (a) a subscription to the service or to a service that includes that service; or
> (b) an authorisation to view it, or to listen to it, on a particular occasion;


So at least that clears up Pete's argument that Freesat was a form of conditional access.

There's even a definition of scrambling, just in case:



> common European scrambling algorithm as administered by the European Telecommunications Standards Institute (ETSI)


The ETSI define how to scramble a DVB transport stream, be it MPEG-4 or MPEG 2.

MPEG2/4 can't be scrambling per se, because if in the clear MPEG is scrambled what on earth is "unscrambled"?

Freesat boxes do not support this ETSI defined scrambling and therefore the directive, and that regulation, do not apply to them.

While Pete is right that nothing is certain until tested in law, some things are pretty damned clear without having a lawyer go near them


----------



## CarlWalters

ozsat said:


> You can do it - but the Humax is no longer in Freesat mode - and there is no way of controlling the channel numbers for all users.
> 
> It would be a big task to undertake for a couple of users.


Would it be something I could do myself or would it require TiVo/Tribune intervention?


----------



## OzSat

May be a hack to do it - TiVo will not as is does not have the resources to provide unique platforms on a user basis.


----------



## TCM2007

There's a TW module to change channel numbers IIRC.


----------



## Pete77

CarlWalters said:


> Would it be something I could do myself or would it require TiVo/Tribune intervention?


You might want to look at this thread:-

www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=395652

Surely if you can change the channel numbers on the Humax box to be the same as the Freesat lineup it should work provided Tivo also has IR codes to control this box. Bound to be a pain though as Freesat keep on changing their channel lineup and channel numbers.

TivoWebPlus 2.1 also has a module that lets you change the channel numbers on Tivo fairly easily. I'm not sure this can be done in Tivoweb 1.9.4 Again it would be a pain as Freesat gradually changed their channel numbers and you had to keep on changing the Tivo to correspond.


----------



## OzSat

Pete77 said:


> You might want to look at this thread:-
> 
> www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=395652
> 
> Surely if you can change the channel numbers on the Humax box to be the same as the Freesat lineup it should work provided Tivo also has IR codes to control this box. Bound to be a pain though as Freesat keep on changing their channel lineup and channel numbers.


I think Carl wants to have the channels there are NOT in the Freesat lineup.


----------



## Pete77

ozsat said:


> I think Carl wants to have the channels there are NOT in the Freesat lineup.


I suppose he could try using the Tivo Sky Digital lineup and then adjust the channel numbers on the sat box to match that. Or adjust the channel numbers on the Sky Digital Tivo lineup using TivoWebPlus to match the sat box.

Of course if the channels he wants to record are not in the Sky EPG at all then a Manual Record using one of the Sky channel numbers as a dummy should still work if the sat box channel number is synced up with this.

But then we get the IR control question as well.

All in all sounds like a lot of hassle.


----------



## CarlWalters

ozsat said:


> I think Carl wants to have the channels there are NOT in the Freesat lineup.


Yes what would be ideal would be if I coul map the extra non-Freesat line-up channels that were still supported with guide data from Tribune onto the same channel numbers as say the existing Sky line-up so then I could record non-Freesat channels as I currently do with my current Sky box but using the Humax box as a source.

That's what I'd like anyway 

I had a search for a TiVoWeb channel map module but the links seem to be broken now.


----------



## Automan

Yesterday when I powered up my Tivo linked to a Bush Freesat SD box I noted it was stuck displaying 103 on the screen (over a BBC1 picture).

Seem 24hrs earlier or more when it tried for 103 from BBC1 it never happened.

Soft powered off the bush box and back on and it was okay again.

Automan.


----------



## CarlWalters

does anyone know if the channel re-map module is available anywhere? The original link at http://tivo.lightn.org/ seems not to exist any more.


----------



## Pete77

CarlWalters said:


> does anyone know if the channel re-map module is available anywhere? The original link at http://tivo.lightn.org/ seems not to exist any more.


See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoweb

and

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=110228

I think TivoWebPlus 2.1 has a built in module to renumber the channels as you want to do.


----------



## ghstone

I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere, so forgive me if it's already been covered...

I have just rebuilt a Tivo and been through Guided Setup, selecting Analaogue terrestrial and Digital Satellite as sources.

Once the initial setup call has been made I got the screen to select my satellite region BUT it now has FreeSAT as well as Sky Digital ! Which is excellent as I can try it with my new FreeSAT HD box.

So, this means that we can now use TIVO with FreeSAT and more importantly there's a whole world of new Satellite users out there who have just got FreeSAT and are wondering how they're going to record it.

"TIVO the only PVR that can record Analaogue and Digital Terrestrial, Cable, Sky and FreeSAT"

Graham

2 x 250Gb, Mode 0 with Cachecard & dedicated Sky
1 x 400Gb Mode 0 TurboNET & FreeSAT !!


----------



## ghstone

ooops! and I can't delete it either - presumably because it's been replied to...


----------



## OzSat

Threads merged


----------



## ghstone

Thanks, i'll do a proper search >before< I post next time...


----------



## OzSat

The full BBC1 regions (and ITV2+1) should be added to TiVo in the download from tomorrow (Wednesday) evening.

Also, correct postcode matching is now available for most (maybe all) regions on 101/103 on your Freesat stb.


----------



## Automan

I don't often ever select the other two options from the main menu but last night I did.

One said "none at this time" and the channel highlights had loads but nearly ALL were not on channels in the Freesat lineup.

Out of about 80 items two were on freesat channels 

The rest were on TCM and Sky movie channels which of course a FreeSat setup cannot receive.

EDIT:
One Freesat/Tivo bonus is that you get the radio channels as they are 3 digit in much they were on the Sky lineup.

Automan.


----------



## TCM2007

Channel highlights have never aligned to the channels you actually receive.


----------



## Automan

E4+1 will appear on channel 123, More4+1 on 125, and Film4+1 on 301. RTÉ Radio services will appear on 750, 751, 752 and 753.

According to http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/a129309/freesat-confirms-rt-c41-launches.html

Automan.


----------



## jed

Guys, 
I'm desperately trying to get a STB which Tivo can control with a few specific features which various STB in the past haven't had and which I have found really annoying. It's just occurred to me that given Freeview boxes are becoming hard to come by maybe the Freesat route is an option (I still have an old Sky dish)

Do any of the Freesat boxes...

automatically turns on after a power failure
can you disable scanning for new channels (or it does it silently)
obviously Tivo has the codes to control
can you change from TV to radio and back by channel number only

I think out of preference I'd prefer to go for a cheapish box - I'm guessing something like the Bush / Goodmans / Grundig SD options.
I assume the HD box will work with an ordinary TV (scart) - I don't have to go HD.

Thanks!
Jed


----------



## Fred Smith

jed said:


> It's just occurred to me that given Freeview boxes are becoming hard to come by


Since when?


----------



## Automan

Fred Smith said:


> Since when?


Perhaps he means ones that work well with Tivo?

Automan.


----------



## jed

Exactly and decent quality ones, the current range seems to be budget ones, it appears the likes of Panasonic, Sony etc. no longer make them - integrated into their TVs I guess so no need to supply STBs (granted Philips is supposed to be a half decent make but just having looked at their STB it looks very much like it was built as cheaply as possible).


----------



## OzSat

Automan said:


> E4+1 will appear on channel 123, More4+1 on 125, and Film4+1 on 301. RTÉ Radio services will appear on 750, 751, 752 and 753.
> 
> According to http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/a129309/freesat-confirms-rt-c41-launches.html
> 
> Automan.


They are in Friday evening's TiVo update.


----------



## scoopuk

I'm thinking of switching my Freeview-driven Tivo to one fed by Freesat ( a Goodmans Freesat HD box). Has anyone else done this ? Is it worthwhile? How reliable are the channel changes ? Thanks for any help on this.


----------



## bri_tal

_


scoopuk said:



I'm thinking of switching my Freeview-driven Tivo to one fed by Freesat ( a Goodmans Freesat HD box). Has anyone else done this ? Is it worthwhile? How reliable are the channel changes ? Thanks for any help on this.

Click to expand...

_Haven't used the Goodmans but the Humax (Foxsat) provides a reliable service (Freesat via tivo)


----------



## Automan

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/a134682/fives-freesat-launch-date-confirmed.html

Tuesday Nov 18th.

Another channel lineup change 

Automan.


----------



## AENG

Let's hope Ms Scott was not being literal about Five's joining Freesat.
Fantastic: "Existing only in imagination, unreal" (OED)


----------



## Automan

You may need to perform a channel scan but it is now in the EPG at 105

Automan.


----------



## bri_tal

Automan said:


> You may need to perform a channel scan but it is now in the EPG at 105
> 
> Automan.


 - But still no EPG through Tivo


----------



## AMc

- But still no EPG through Tiv
Have you got it available in the list of 'channels I receive' ? - you'll have to add it from there manually it won't appear by itself.


----------



## DX30

bri_tal said:


> - But still no EPG through Tivo


It arrived on the 18th for me. As AMc said check "Channels I Receive" to enable it, and if it isn't in the list make sure your Daily Calls are working.


----------



## bri_tal

AMc said:


> - But still no EPG through Tiv
> Have you got it available in the list of 'channels I receive' ? - you'll have to add it from there manually it won't appear by itself.


Affirmative. I added it on the 18th and have been forcing daily updates but still not in the EPG. My Foxsat box shows the EPG for this channel, so why not Tivo ?


----------



## bri_tal

DX30 said:


> It arrived on the 18th for me. As AMc said check "Channels I Receive" to enable it, and if it isn't in the list make sure your Daily Calls are working.


All daily updates were successfully applied. What digital box are you using ?


----------



## OzSat

bri_tal said:


> Affirmative. I added it on the 18th and have been forcing daily updates but still not in the EPG. My Foxsat box shows the EPG for this channel, so why not Tivo ?


It was added to TiVo to appear on 18th Nov - this was successful.

You need to go into 'Channels I Receive' on your TiVo and select channel 105 - it will then appear in the TiVo EPG.


----------



## bri_tal

OK - Thought I had already ticked-it in Channels I receive but must have clicked twice ! CH105 now included in EPG. Thanks for your help.


----------



## tonelocal

I know the Pace DS810XE is not proper Freesat but it does have HD.

So can someone add support for it please? 

Are there any others with this STB?


----------



## AENG

Sorry to appear a bit thick (a permanent risk these days ) but when my Humax PVR arrived I pensioned off the TiVo that controlled the original Humax Freesat STB. Remarks in some threads seem to imply that TiVo is capable of controlling the PVR. If so, does this include starting a recording as well as selecting a channel? If so, how, exactly?

The TiVo is un-modded except for a larger HD with mode 0.


----------



## mikerr

AENG said:


> Remarks in some threads seem to imply that TiVo is capable of controlling the PVR.


Wishful thinking - although there is a hack to do that with sky+, so its possible to modify that for the humax PVR.


----------



## DX30

The TiVo just selects a channel on the PVR and records the normal SD Scart output on the TiVo. It doesn't record on the PVR itself.


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## AENG

Thanks mikerr & DX30. I feared that might be the case. Guess I'll just have to go on struggling with that distinctly sub-standard Humax UI, then, as I don't fancy tangling with sky+ either :down:


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## ukuser17

Getting freesat installed later this week and trying to determine which freesat set top box's work best with Tivos.

I've had a bit of a read through this thread but to be honest it didn't seem there was a clear answer. The only other information I've found is the following code listings:

Model Tivo IR code Remote code
Humax Foxsat HD	20073 304
Humax HDCI 2000	20067
Bush freesat SD	20074 305

The bush box seems harder to find these days. The Humax HDCI looks like a bit of an old model (and appears to have no remote code). It seems the only potentially decent option is the Humax Foxsat HD - is this correct?

Requirements:

- Must work with Tivo (scart sockets, IR codes and lineups etc) and channel change relatively reliably (I'll have to dig out my IR blasters)
- Software and EPG should be relatively quick and responsive
- I don't actually need HD right now and probably not too interested in it for future upgradability (may be moving country in next year or so)
- Ideally cheaper and basic features rather than stuffed with features. I probably won't watch much live tv so most viewing will be of recorded stuff on the Tivo.

Thanks for any advice offered.


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## Fred Smith

ukuser17 said:


> Getting freesat installed later this week and trying to determine which freesat set top box's work best with Tivos.
> 
> I've had a bit of a read through this thread but to be honest it didn't seem there was a clear answer. The only other information I've found is the following code listings:
> 
> Model Tivo IR code Remote code
> Humax Foxsat HD	20073 304
> Humax HDCI 2000	20067
> Bush freesat SD	20074 305
> 
> The bush box seems harder to find these days. The Humax HDCI looks like a bit of an old model (and appears to have no remote code). It seems the only potentially decent option is the Humax Foxsat HD - is this correct?
> 
> Requirements:
> 
> - Must work with Tivo (scart sockets, IR codes and lineups etc) and channel change relatively reliably (I'll have to dig out my IR blasters)
> - Software and EPG should be relatively quick and responsive
> - I don't actually need HD right now and probably not too interested in it for future upgradability (may be moving country in next year or so)
> - Ideally cheaper and basic features rather than stuffed with features. I probably won't watch much live tv so most viewing will be of recorded stuff on the Tivo.
> 
> Thanks for any advice offered.


The Humax HDCI 2000 is not a Freesat box it's an FTA box, so no Freesat EPG etc.

The Bush was sold under three brand names Alba, Grundig and Bush. But now Argos own the Alba brand name. The Bush and Grundig SD and HD boxes are both available from Argos, but for some reason the Bush versions being cheaper.

An old Sky box works well with TiVo and can receive all the Freesat channels, and a £20 card (if you don't have a lapsed subscription card) will add Fiver, Five US and Sky 3, non of which are on Freesat. Or there is Sky's pay once for £75 installed and cancel before the end of the free trial.


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## ukuser17

Thanks for the reply.

Indeed it appears that it's just the argos stores in my area that have none of the Bush boxes, but one in London near work has some. 

The Bush BFSAT01SD is about £50 and I presume this is the one that has the working Tivo codes and can be controlled by the Tivo.

Anyone able to comment on how well this box works?

Sky is not really an option - I already have a sky subscription that I proxy for my parents who emigrated to France last year, so don't really want to complicate that further.

I did contemplate freeview - but it does seem to me that satellite is the better way to go.

Thanks again.


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## Fred Smith

ukuser17 said:


> I did contemplate freeview - but it does seem to me that satellite is the better way to go.


Who mentioned Freeview?


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## ukuser17

Sorry, misunderstood what you meant when you said the HDCI 2000 was not a freesat box but a FTA box.


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## stec00

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but after a bit of googling this seems like probably the best place to ask a q about freesat+TiVo. I'm considering my options after moving to a house that has a satellite dish with two cables coming out of it but no box etc. Want to carry on using my best ever purchase - the TiVo of course, which after reading this thread sounds perfectly viable. So it seems I'll need to buy at least one box and it seems the main options are:

Bush (or similar) - fairly cheap but sounds a bit rubbish from a few of the comments (e.g. unreliable channel changes, rebooting etc.)
Humax HDR/PVR - mixed reviews, some very good especially the 'official' reviews but from reading some of the user comments I think I'd find the interface pretty frustrating after nearly about 7 years of unfalteringly happy TiVo ownership.
Humax (non-HDR version) - am currently thinking this may be the best option combined with TiVo but could be a bit pricey to get one for each output.

But one final option not mentioned could be an old Sky box off eBay + card to make it work? Not sure about the ins and outs of this but if it works it could be cheap as there's plenty of them around. Or what about a Sky Plus box - does anyone know if I bought one of these I could just pop a freesat card in and the two satellite outputs and get TiVo to control it all ... or is this just a pipe dream? Any advice much appreciated...


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## velocitysurfer1

Sky + without a subscription acts just like a standard sky box - the options are either to pay sky &#163;10/month to activate the recording facility on the + box, or take out a sky subscription &#163;17+/month and you get a package including the sky + recording facility.

If I were you (and I'm not!) I'd get a standard sky box and card from ebay (or freecycle) for TiVo to control, and get a seperate HD freesat box to watch live HD programs (of which there isn't many on the free HD channels)


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## johala_reewi

You can buy a new freesat from sky card from Sky for about £20 if you don't get one with an old Sky box.

http://www.freesatfromsky.co.uk/faqs-freesat.aspx


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## Major dude

stec00 said:


> Sorry to resurrect an old thread but after a bit of googling this seems like probably the best place to ask a q about freesat+TiVo. .


Have a look at this thread as it should be relevant to your query.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=439080

You will only need one sat. feed & can use an rf2 link for good channel changing.


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## stec00

Thanks v. much for your replies velocitysurfer1, johala_reewi and Major dude. Was wondering if I might be shot down in flames for posting on an old thread so a pleasant surprise to get some useful info instead.

So it sounds like TiVo will work fine with any Sky box (no matter which make) as long as it has one of the new cards. Guess the only disadvantage here is being at the mercy of Mr. Murdoch - whenever he fancies a bit of cash from the people not paying regular subs he can issue a new card and charge £20 for it - enough to make some money but probably not enough to make people bothered to switch to something different. (Or is that just me being cynical?!)

Not too worried about HD on my 37 inch plasma, which seems pretty good quality on an SD picture (well it was with Virgin media anyway). Have seen an HD picture on the same telly and couldn't tell much difference, although it was only watching cricket. Guess it would be a bonus to have the option though. As for the rf2 link, sounds a good suggestion if it's the most reliable feed, will look into this.


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## kitschcamp

Honestly, I doubt he's making much money out of replacing all the cards. It'll be costing them a small fortune. 

As for wanting to do it regularly, when you consider Sky started changing cards last Easter, and they've only just finished in December.... Not something to consider doing lightly.


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## cwaring

Yeah. I'm as against Mr M as the next guy but even I thought that was rather a silly comment


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## martink0646

stec00 said:


> Not too worried about HD on my 37 inch plasma, which seems pretty good quality on an SD picture (well it was with Virgin media anyway). Have seen an HD picture on the same telly and couldn't tell much difference, although it was only watching cricket.


Hi Stec,

I always find this comment v.interesting as the difference between an SD picture & an HD picture is huge. A few basic facts as I understand them; a Mode 0 enhanced TiVo will output 576i (720x576) =414,720 pixels. Then for HDTV in the UK you have 720p (1280x768) = 921,600 pixels or 1080i (1920x1080) =2,073,600. So dependent on the TV, if you are watching an HD broadcast then it will be between 2.22 & 5 times the resolution. When I hear people saying they can't see the difference I can think of only two reasons that people can't see the difference assuming you take eyesight out of the equation. Firstly, the viewer is too far away from the screen to see the difference. Secondly, they are NOT watching HD as their set-up is wrong.

I have been to a number of friends houses who proudly tell me about watching in HD & when I look it is plainly not. A poke round the back usually finds a SCART connection, not HDMI, or a poke around the menus will sort it out & they are genuinely amazed when they actually get an HD picture.

This post is not meant to be rude, but a gentle nudge to revisit the issue. Go and look at an HDTV broadcast again, make sure it is a proper HD picture (specialist retailers will have them properly set-up) and that you get close enough as over a certain distance all broadcasts will look the same (see this link HD viewing distance to screen size chart). For instance, your ideal vieving distance for HD is about 8 feet for 720p and 6 feet for 1080p.

Martin


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## mikerr

It is more to do with viewing distance, from your link it shows that if you sit 10 foot away from a 32" screen, then HD is of no use to you (though you will still benefit from higher bitrates with HD).

E.g. I can sit on a chair 5 foot away from my TV, or more normally on the sofa over 10 foot away.
Sat close to the TV the difference is huge, on the sofa or further away, less so.
(Panasonic 32" BTW)


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## RichardJH

And of course it depends on TV type and make and just how well it handles a SD signal and then applies it to the LCD or Plasma panel.


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## Pete77

johala_reewi said:


> You can buy a new freesat from sky card from Sky for about £20 if you don't get one with an old Sky box.


Any Blue Sky card that is provided with a secondhand Sky box will shortly cease to work when it is replaced with one of the new white Sky viewing cards.

The only channels you will not be able to get without one are Sky Three, Fiver, Five USA and LFC plus also Five (the last only in some regions of the UK whilst in others you will get it fine without a viewing card). However you will also not be able to get the correct regionalised version for your area of both BBC One and/or ITV1 without one, even though you will be able to get them somewhere up in nine hundred and somethings.

Sky only replace the viewing cards every six years or so and only because the encryption provider (NDS) and the satellite operator (SES Astra) forces them to do so to ensure the encryption system is not eventually hacked.

There are several channels available on a Sky box (not just those that need a viewing card) that cannot be recorded on to a Tivo from a BBC/ITV (Bush/Humax) Freesat box because they are not in the Freesat EPG. The BBC/ITV Freesat EPG has got larger but still does not include all the FTA channels in the Sky EPG.


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## OzSat

A few ITV1 subregions are also NOT available via Freesat.


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## martink0646

Pete77 said:


> Sky only replace the viewing cards every six years or so and only because the encryption provider (NDS) and the satellite operator (SES Astra) forces them to do so to ensure the encryption system is not eventually hacked.


Don't Sky own NDS? If so the impetus for change would come from?

Martin


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## kitschcamp

News Corp own NDS, iirc. Sky are partly owned by News Corp.


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## paulcahill

ozsat said:


> The BushSD codes are now available - you'll need to force a download to get them unless you just wait for the next auto download.
> 
> The Bush(UK) code is 20074. Correct IR database is 305.
> 
> Many thanks to 'automan'.
> 
> PM me if you have any issues.


Hi Could you please tell me how I do a forced download of the IR codes so that I can try the 20074 on my Grundig Freesat box.

Thanks, Paul

Series 1 (upgraded)


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## Automan

paulcahill said:


> Hi Could you please tell me how I do a forced download of the IR codes so that I can try the 20074 on my Grundig Freesat box.
> 
> Thanks, Paul
> 
> Series 1 (upgraded)


From what I recall it looks for a new one every time it makes the daily call.

The system info screen I think displays the current database version on your box.

Automan.


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## paulcahill

Automan said:


> From what I recall it looks for a new one every time it makes the daily call.
> 
> The system info screen I think displays the current database version on your box.
> 
> Automan.


I can only see reference to a software version which is 2.5.5-01-1-023. Last download was 20.9.10 which as usual was successful. Ir controller Version 00034 Ir Database Version 313. Only Ir codes I have in my list are 00003/00038/00053/00090/20000/20001/20006/20014/20015/20016 I assumed the 20074 Bush codes might have been added as I assume they might work?

Any light that can be shed on this problem would be much appreciated as I seem to be going round in circles and getting nowhere. Not much point in having Freesat as a selectable option in the Guided setup if the Ir codes are not available, may as well go back to SKY+ and sell my TiVo if there isn't going to be adequate technical backup at TiVo.

Regards, Paul


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## mikerr

Select Grundig as the manufacturer and use code 20074 

It's the code that's important, not which manufacturer it appears under.


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## paulcahill

Hi, in my original posting I clearly stated ALL the codes that appear in my guided setup, 20074 does not appear in the list so exactly how am I supposed to select it??

I am now at a total loss as to how I can go forward with the my Freesat installation. Can someone please tell me how I get the code list updated? My updates are done every 24 hours via a broadband connection so why does the updated list not appear?

HELP? please

Regards, Paul


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## Automan

Look under maker "Bush", I think that is where it may be found.

The Grundig, Bush & Alba Freesat boxes are all the same inside.

Automan.



paulcahill said:


> Hi, in my original posting I clearly stated ALL the codes that appear in my guided setup, 20074 does not appear in the list so exactly how am I supposed to select it??
> 
> I am now at a total loss as to how I can go forward with the my Freesat installation. Can someone please tell me how I get the code list updated? My updates are done every 24 hours via a broadband connection so why does the updated list not appear?
> 
> HELP? please
> 
> Regards, Paul


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## paulcahill

Hi Automan and others who helped/tried to help with the problem encountered during my Grundig Freesat box installation. After much tearing out of the little hair I had left the solution was simple and suggested by Automan. I selected the Bush Freesat box option during guided setup, this didn't work, I did notice however that the re was also a Bush (UK) option, I selected this and this finally gave me the 20074 codes I needed, after testing each speed several times I finally settled on medium. May well be that I'm using a cheap 3rd party Ir blaster rather than the TiVo 'wand' but hey, who cares it now works. 

The main reason for changing to Freesat is that we bought a Panasonic LCD HDTV with integrated Freesat HD and Freeview last year and was already using a Grundig HD Freesat box upstairs with a small HD TV in the bedroom. My wife, who has ME and tires easily found the difference in SKY channels connected to the TiVo (which she loves) confusing, so a thank you from her too to now have all 3 sets/systems running the same channels.

I have 2 rf channel changers if anyone wants one, would ideally love to swap them for an original TiVo Ir wand.

Regards and thanks again, Paul Cahill
Series 1 updated
Grundig SD Freesat (using Bush (UK) code - 20074
Panasonic LCD HDTV with integrated Freesat HD/Freeview


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## AMc

Should be taken care of by the daily call. If you can't wait then go into the phone menu and make daily call now.


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## Automan

Seems the nice folks at the BBC have changed the way the red dog behaves on Freesat.

Before today it would time-out after a few seconds.

Now, you have to press the Green button (like Freeview).

Thus you may now find any BBC Tivo Freesat recordings now have an extra DOG 

Automan.


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## TCM2007

Times out on Freeview for me?


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## Automan

TCM2007 said:


> Times out on Freeview for me?


You must have a nice Freeview box.

On most Freeview TV's and STB's I have used a press of the green button was needed.

Automan.


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## AMc

Red button times out on my Wharfedale Freeview box. Not sure if this is a box or channel behaviour but on DTT it sounds like its the box.


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## Automan

It seems on the Humax Freesat boxes a hidden option exist to turn off the function...

Menu > system > diagnostics > press ok > Red green yellow blue green yellow blue > scroll down to 'MHEG Test' and disable it.

Thanks to a DigitalSpy person.

Automan


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## Automan

> On the non-timing out press red icons, we've recently released a tool on Freesat that enables us to swap and change them easily. The original configuration was set for the icons to time out after 10800 seconds (also known as three hours) and you're right, that's just a bit long for most situations. We've tweaked the configuration to make it just a few hours shorter! The icons should now time out after 30 seconds or less.


Just as well as it is even bigger going on about iPlayer.

Automan.


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