# Game of Thrones 5/22/16 "The Door"



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, dang! Bran sure messed up Hodor's life real good, didn't he?

I guess Hodor really did have only one thought on his mind...


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

Another wolf gets slaughtered.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, dang! Bran sure messed up Hodor's life real good, didn't he?
> 
> I guess Hodor really did have only one thought on his mind...


That scene legitimately brought a tear to my eye. Damn.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I'm so angry. Why did Summer have to go. That's two in a row. I didn't need to see that. Now we have only Ghost and Nymeria running out there somewhere maybe. 

And Hodor ....... I'm just..... I don't have anything to say other than that sucked. I want a redo. 

I'm going to bed angry, I'll make another post tomorrow from work once I've thought more on this episode.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I'll re-watch eventually, but what did Sansa "not say" that Brienne called her on?


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

I think it was that she learned about Uncle Blackfish and his army at Riverrun from Little Finger, not from her time with Ramsay. I need a re-watch to be sure, but that was my first thought.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

SoupMan said:


> I think it was that she learned about Uncle Blackfish and his army at Riverrun from Little Finger, not from her time with Ramsay. I need a re-watch to be sure, but that was my first thought.


Oh right! Thanks! Why on earth would she protect Baelish at this point?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> Oh right! Thanks! Why on earth would she protect Baelish at this point?


Protecting him, or not giving him credit?


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

Man this season has been great. Seems like every episode has a wow moment.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

Hodor.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

'Ho' D'Door is his formal name.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

She also didn't tell Jon that the banners of the Vale are willing to enter the fray.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

When Meera, Hodor & Bran were escaping down the tunnel, I kept expecting the _Frozen Donkey Wheel_ to be around the next bend.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

So Bran did not get to see the end of the flashback at the Tower of Joy. I wonder if he can have visions of his own now, without the old man in the tree.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

When Meera was trying to wake Bran up, and telling him that he needed to control Hodor, I was hoping he would somehow be able to link future Hodor's mind to past Hodor's mind in order to restore it, thus allowing Hodor to act independently while Bran was finishing his conversion. But unfortunately exactly the opposite happened. I'm not sure if he was attempting to do what I thought he might or he just accidentally warged the wrong Hodor.

I suppose the silver lining in all of this is the knowledge that Bran can influence the past. Perhaps he will plant and has planted seeds throughout time in order to slowly turn the tide in The War. Was what happened between Ned and his sister one of those times? On the other hand, he might be too scared of trying due to what happened with Hodor.

So the White Walkers were created with dragon glass, probably specifically to fight dragons brought by humans. The question is, did the Children create dragons to fight humans, and then the humans turned the dragons against them, or did the dragons come from Essos, having already been tamed (or even created) by humans, specifically to fight the Children?



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Protecting him, or not giving him credit?


That's what I'm thinking. She doesn't want Jon (or anyone else) to know about her connection with him. It could make her look weak (having been manipulated by him) or untrustworthy (having been in league with him). I'm not sure how she's explained having fled King's Landing though, or if anyone has even asked. I guess she could have said it was the Boltons who arranged the whole thing.

Unfortunately, keeping Petyr out of the picture could be her undoing. I wonder if he was counting on her not trusting a raven to get in touch with the Blackfish, and sending Brienne instead. Was what he said true, or is Brienne walking into a trap? Perhaps both, if his goal was to intercept her on her way. He stops her, leaks information to Ramsay about the Blackfish and his army's whereabouts, and a potential alliance with Jon, then Ramsay's army takes them out.

So then Ramsay's army is weakened, but Jon has lost a key ally. Oh look, here comes the Vale to the rescue, and all thanks to Petyr. The question is, will he demand Sansa's hand in marriage in exchange for that, or betray Jon at a point when both his and Ramsay's armies are the most vulnerable?

If the former, then I think she would clearly beat Margaery in the category of "worst luck with marriage". She might have already beaten Margaery with Ramsay vs. Joffrey, especially given that Margaery didn't have to suffer through much of hers. Plus, there's also the fact that Margaery was actively seeking out those marriages for her own selfish reasons, while Sansa was forced into one, and manipulated into another. But a marriage to Petyr would make her undoubtedly the winner.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

john4200 said:


> So Bran did not get to see the end of the flashback at the Tower of Joy. I wonder if he can have visions of his own now, without the old man in the tree.


I think so. The old man knew that his home had been compromised, but at the same time told Bran that Bran would become him. If that particular tree was needed, it would have been useless to do anything. Plus, Bran was still in the vision while disconnected from the tree.

I'm not sure if he can see any new visions right now, though, or will need to grow/become a tree in order to do so. If the latter, then he just needs to remember: location, location, location.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Now we have only Ghost and Nymeria running out there somewhere maybe.


Speaking of the wolves, if Bran is afraid to control humans across time, perhaps he could control animals. Was he the one who sent mama direwolf down south for the Starks to find her cubs?

If so, then there's hope for Nymeria. Perhaps he's been warging into her to keep her safe. It would be poetic justice if she turned the tide of the battle between Jon and Ramsay by jumping in, and ripping Ramsay to shreds. Although I suppose that honor could also go to Ghost. Maybe both of them, tag teaming.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Dot


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

MacThor said:


> She also didn't tell Jon that the banners of the Vale are willing to enter the fray.


Because she didn't want to argue about it. Jon would have accepted their assistance.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Robin said:


> Because she didn't want to argue about it. Jon would have accepted their assistance.


I was responding to the question about Sansa's lies to Jon.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

What if the magic keeping the white walkers out of the cave is the same "spell" as the one on the Wall?

Has Bran inadvertently given them access to the Seven Kingdoms?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MacThor said:


> What if the magic keeping the white walkers out of the cave is the same "spell" as the one on the Wall?
> 
> Has Bran inadvertently given them access to the Seven Kingdoms?


All Bran did was "tell" them where the cave was. They got in on their own.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> All Bran did was "tell" them where the cave was. They got in on their own.


They made a specific point of showing the wights disintegrate upon entering the cave in the "Previously On" segment. I'll have to rewatch but I think Meera or Bran even said "they can't get in" and the 3 eyed Raven said "They can now."

The wights were held back by the fire but got into the cave without disintegrating.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> All Bran did was "tell" them where the cave was. They got in on their own.


Bran asked Raven if they could get in and (after Bran let one touch him and got the mark on his arm) said "They can now."

It seemed to me that they could not get to the Raven (could not get in the cave) before that event.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

MacThor said:


> I was responding to the question about Sansa's lies to Jon.


Right. I was agreeing with you and expanding on what you said.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

What a great episode. I felt bad for both Wyllis and Hodor.

I thought it was kind of funny how fickle the Greyjoy crowd people were. They cheered every person who was nominated for the throne. They'd probably have chosen PeeWee Herman if he would have showed up last. They also really need to step up their crown game. What was that thing, a bunch of bones?

I didn't read the books. The direwolves are such minor characters in the tv show that it barely registers with me when they're killed.

The play made me laugh. It was the highlight of the time the show has spent in Braavos this season. I hate to say this because I love the character but the Arya subplot is kinda boring. I'm also tired of seeing her get her ass handed to her by the waif every week. She needs the Braavos version of Bruce Lee to teach her some things.

Sansa has really matured this season. I think she should have accepted Littlefinger's offer though.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

That was the worst kind of sad.

I wish Hodor had become himself at the end and said "Hold the Door". That would have been a really nice touch.

Loved the Blackfish character and very glad he might be back!


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

So, Bran saw the army of wights facing a tree, was that the actual tree he was hiding out in? Didn't look like it, but when wights and walkers appeared they stood by his tree in a similar manner (though not exactly the same). Did he see the future and connected it to present in a similar way he connected past and present with Wyllis? Or did he see the present, and Wight army was simply nearby staring at another tree?

Also why would Raven take Bran into the past, to show him Wyllis, unless he knew what was about to happen. It seems like he wanted Bran to realize that he can impact the past.
And when Bran touched the roots and saw the wights, what / who decided that this is what he was to see?


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I didn't read the books. The direwolves are such minor characters in the tv show that it barely registers with me when they're killed.


For me at least, it's mostly just being a crazy dog/animal person.  But as far as the story goes, it's just another in the long series of trauma and gut punches inflicted on the Starks in this story.


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## jdfs (Oct 21, 2002)

I agree, the Arya storyline is the worst part of the show. It better have some giant payoff in the end. I loath every second when she comes on screen since she has been in Braavos.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

secondclaw said:


> So, Bran saw the army of wights facing a tree, was that the actual tree he was hiding out in? Didn't look like it, but when wights and walkers appeared they stood by his tree in a similar manner (though not exactly the same). Did he see the future and connected it to present in a similar way he connected past and present with Wyllis? Or did he see the present, and Wight army was simply nearby staring at another tree?


No, that was the same tree and stone formation as the place where the dude was turned into a white walker by the children of the forest.



secondclaw said:


> Also why would Raven take Bran into the past, to show him Wyllis, unless he knew what was about to happen. It seems like he wanted Bran to realize that he can impact the past.
> And when Bran touched the roots and saw the wights, what / who decided that this is what he was to see?


I think it was pretty clear the Raven knew exactly what he was doing, because he told BRan he wa not ready and took him to that specific point in time and then told Bran to listen to his friend.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

The Hodor scene had me saying "Ho(ly)Crap"!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I'm getting so lost. Started looking up who "Black Fish" was, bits and pieces started coming back, but there's way more detail over the last 5 seasons than it's possible to remember. I still don't "get" what it was that Sansa kept from Jon about Riverrun (who it affects and how), and I'm also not at all clear on what went down between Sansa, Petyr and Brienne. Probably doesn't help that it was about 1AM by the time we got there.

Need a good recap.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Just had a terrible thought. What if Hodor comes back as a White Walker


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

I am still confused on what happened with Willis/Hodor? Bran is in the past vision with Willis, Willis's eyes go white, Hodor in the future is "holding the door". What just happened to Willis in the past that made him go all Hodor bonkers? Did Hodor know from that point on what was going to ultimately happen to him?


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Bran crossed the streams. &#128512;
He was greenseeing and warging simultaneously and basically created Hodor, and Hodor's destiny. What makes it even more tragic is that Hodor has probably known this fate for his whole life since the "seizure." 

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

OK, after having read a couple of recaps, Sansa knows that Black Fish has an army, but she didn't tell Jon that she learned of this from Petyr. Is that it? Doesn't sound like much and I'm not sure why she did that. Black Fish is Catelyn's uncle; Jon is (supposedly) the bastard child an a constant reminder how Edd cheated on his niece. Not sure how well that will go off. On the other hand, Sansa is Catelyn's daughter, so if she does the asking why would he say no? Well, other than the fact that Jon is bringing a small army of Wildlings with him.

So what is it that Petyr knows that will surely put Black Fish on Jon and Sansa's side? I could only think of one good reason why Black Fish would not join Jon, and that also leads to only one thing that Littlefinger could know that would change that.

But how could Littlefinger know about Jon's true lineage? Ned and Howland Reed were the only ones left alive from the Tower of Joy (well, and Jon). Was there any connection between Littlefinger and Howland?


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Loved the final scene, although it would have been even more powerful had they not edited out the rumored exchange between Hodor and his mother where, after repeating the phrase over and over, upon opening his eyes, the mom says "Whatchoo talkin' bout Willis"


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

nickels said:


> I am still confused on what happened with Willis/Hodor? Bran is in the past vision with Willis, Willis's eyes go white, Hodor in the future is "holding the door". What just happened to Willis in the past that made him go all Hodor bonkers? Did Hodor know from that point on what was going to ultimately happen to him?


From one of the recaps I just read:



> While young Wyllis freaks out, yelling HODOR! over and over again, the older Hodor holds the door and is torn apart by the wights. Hodor has been experiencing his own future death for decades, and now hes feeling it.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

All the recaps say that Hodor was being torn apart. But I don't recall seeing him *actually* being torn apart. Thick coat and all. On the other hand I didn't see a dumpster with unusually high clearance standing nearby.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

My speculation is Arya The Girl will "fail" on her mission and kill the "wrong" actress. This will be her last test in becoming one of the Faceless.


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## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

MacThor said:


> Bran crossed the streams. 😀
> He was greenseeing and warging simultaneously and basically created Hodor, and Hodor's destiny. What makes it even more tragic is that Hodor has probably known this fate for his whole life since the "seizure."
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


So - I'm also confused.

Meera was screaming at Bran to warg into the present Hodor in order to get Hodor to help her/them in the present...particularly carry Bran in the sled so they could escape.

Bran then does what...while in the past, wargs into the past Wyllis? Was that an accident?

And in the present, Hodor suddenly gets up and starts taking control. Was Bran warged into him then? Or was it something that Bran did to Wyllis in the past that kicked him into gear?

And so - was Bran in Hodor in the present when he was "hold(ing) the door"?

It seemed that Bran was maybe still in the past while all that was going on (sees the 3-eyed Raven go up in smoke from the past and hears the present voices in the past...) but did he come back to the present?

One last thought...when one of the "Children" hurls the obsidian spear at the White Walker - there seemed to be a stack of them right there. Why didn't they just pick up the rest and continue? That one seemed pretty damn efficient.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

So we are to understand that the bearded Wildling head guy is sweet on Brienne, right?


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

I saw a woman on Kelly this morning within an hour after I watched this episode, and knew I'd seen her somewhere, but I couldn't quite place her. The channel was buffered, so I ran it back a bit, and lo and behold, it was Emelia Clarke talking about GOT. She sure looks different with brownish hair and her clothes on. Kelly hinted about whether she was uncomfortable with her nudity on the show, and she replied that she was watching the previous episode with her parents, and when the fire scene came on at the end her father yelled out "Again?"


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Wow, I'm confused. Time travel really messes with my mind.

Can Bran just warg back into younger Bran and stop himself from climbing up the tower and witnessing Jaime and Cersei and thus stopping the chain of events that follow?


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

getreal said:


> So we are to understand that the bearded Wildling head guy is sweet on Brienne, right?


Yes.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Loved the Blackfish character and very glad he might be back!


For anyone else that watches "After the Thrones".....this is my "Who the F*** is that" moment. I have no recollection of a Blackfish character.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

I just realized that with the Hodor plot, GRRM has established that the Common Tongue is indeed *English*.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

goblue97 said:


> For anyone else that watches "After the Thrones".....this is my "Who the F*** is that" moment. I have no recollection of a Blackfish character.


This should help you out 
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Brynden_Tully


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

goblue97 said:


> For anyone else that watches "After the Thrones".....this is my "Who the F*** is that" moment. I have no recollection of a Blackfish character.


Blackfish was the one who shot the fire arrow into the boat with Hoster Tully's body at his funeral after Edmure Tully kept missing.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

dtle said:


> I just realized that with the Hodor plot, GRRM has established that the Common Tongue is indeed *English*.


Why? The actual phrase for "Hold the Door" in whatever the actual common tongue is becomes Hodor's name. Hodors name could easily have been translated for us all this time as well.

There's no *need* for the common tongue to be English. It's just easier.


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## JasonLP (Jul 3, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Why? The actual phrase for "Hold the Door" in whatever the actual common tongue is becomes Hodor's name. Hodors name could easily have been translated for us all this time as well.
> 
> There's no *need* for the common tongue to be English. It's just easier.


I was wondering how this plays out for viewers watching in other languages. "Hodor" the character's name sounds the same, but their "Hold the Door" would sound nothing like that. Subtitles will explain it, but I doubt it will have the same impact.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> This should help you out
> http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Brynden_Tully





TampaThunder said:


> Blackfish was the one who shot the fire arrow into the boat with Hoster Tully's body at his funeral after Edmure Tully kept missing.


Sheesh....Season 3 was a long time ago and he was only in maybe an episode or two. Do you guys really remember all these characters without having to look them up?

I do remember Edmure though because I recognized him from Rome.

I should probably re-watch the series from the beginning.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

wprager said:


> But how could Littlefinger know about Jon's true lineage? Ned and Howland Reed were the only ones left alive from the Tower of Joy (well, and Jon). Was there any connection between Littlefinger and Howland?


He has hinted many times about it. Remember, he and Varys were the big spymasters. If the truth is different from the official story, those 2 would know the truth.

Petyr has hinted many times that the official story was not true. If there was an illicit love affair, Petyr would have been the one to facilitate the rendez-vous, actually!


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

goblue97 said:


> Sheesh....Season 3 was a long time ago and he was only in maybe an episode or two. Do you guys really remember all these characters without having to look them up?


Reading the books has been essential for me in figuring out and remembering who the characters are. Without that I have no idea how anyone keeps them straight.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

goblue97 said:


> Sheesh....Season 3 was a long time ago and he was only in maybe an episode or two. Do you guys really remember all these characters without having to look them up?


Not giving you a hard time, but this one was very noteworthy. When they said he escaped the Red Wedding, I really hoped he would resurface eventually. It was clear that he was a fierce fighter.

And he would absolutely and without hesitation join Sansa and Jon. He will want revenge on the Boltons and Frey (once they were done with the Boltons) for what they did to his sister and her children.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> Can Bran just warg back into younger Bran and stop himself from climbing up the tower and witnessing Jaime and Cersei and thus stopping the chain of events that follow?


That could potentially create a paradox that would destroy the entire universe. So yes, I suppose, as a last resort. 

Although perhaps he did help himself to survive that fall. Also, when Summer rescued him from the assassin, did Summer detect danger from wherever he was, or did he know to go to past Bran because future Bran sent him there?



dtle said:


> I just realized that with the Hodor plot, GRRM has established that the Common Tongue is indeed *English*.


Back in Season 3, Davos pronounced knight "kah-nigit". So whether one considers the Common Tongue to be English or simply interprets that as ideas in addition to words being "translated" for us, nothing has changed with the Hodor plot in regards to this.



Anubys said:


> And he would absolutely and without hesitation join Sansa and Jon. He will want revenge on the Boltons and Frey (once they were done with the Boltons) for what they did to his sister and her children.


And not just them. Given that this was a Tully wedding, I imagine there were many Tullys there beyond those in Robb Stark's army.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

BitbyBlit said:


> Unfortunately, keeping Petyr out of the picture could be her undoing. I wonder if he was counting on her not trusting a raven to get in touch with the Blackfish, and sending Brienne instead. Was what he said true, or is Brienne walking into a trap? Perhaps both, if his goal was to intercept her on her way. He stops her, leaks information to Ramsay about the Blackfish and his army's whereabouts, and a potential alliance with Jon, then Ramsay's army takes them out.
> 
> So then Ramsay's army is weakened, but Jon has lost a key ally. Oh look, here comes the Vale to the rescue, and all thanks to Petyr. The question is, will he demand Sansa's hand in marriage in exchange for that, or betray Jon at a point when both his and Ramsay's armies are the most vulnerable?


I don't know that anyone else has responded to this, but I find this very interesting speculation. We have no reason to take anything Littlefinger says at face value, yet that's what we all seem to be doing.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> Petyr has hinted many times that the official story was not true. If there was an illicit love affair, Petyr would have been the one to facilitate the rendez-vous, actually!


Although Littlefinger referred to Jon as Sansa's brother (and half-brother) in this episode, even though there seems little reason for Littlefinger to keep up the secret of Jon's parentage when it is just him and Sansa (and Brienne). I suppose you could argue that Littlefinger was just talking about it from the point of view of the men in Jon's army which was the thing of relevance in that conversation. But it still seems strange that Littlefinger would say "brother", and then "half-brother" but not mention the cousin part, if he knew about it.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Although Littlefinger referred to Jon as Sansa's brother (and half-brother) in this episode, even though there seems little reason for Littlefinger to keep up the secret of Jon's parentage when it is just him and Sansa (and Brienne). I suppose you could argue that Littlefinger was just talking about it from the point of view of the men in Jon's army which was the thing of relevance in that conversation. But it still seems strange that Littlefinger would say "brother", and then "half-brother" but not mention the cousin part, if he knew about it.


Littlefinger is a master in obtaining and manipulating information to help him gain an advantage. That particular piece of information is very valuable. He's not going to let it out in some random conversation. He's going to keep that information to himself until such time as he can use it for his benefit.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Littlefinger is a master in obtaining and manipulating information to help him gain an advantage. That particular piece of information is very valuable. He's not going to let it out in some random conversation. He's going to keep that information to himself until such time as he can use it for his benefit.


I was responding to a post which claimed that Littlefinger had hinted at it many times. If he wants to keep it to himself, then why hint at it? The most logical answer would be that he has not actually hinted at it.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I was responding to a post which claimed that Littlefinger had hinted at it many times. If he wants to keep it to himself, then why hint at it? The most logical answer would be that he has not actually hinted at it.


I think the hints he's dropped in the past were more for the fans of the books and to fan the R+L=J theory than they were for the characters in the story to notice.

For example, the hints he dropped to Sansa while in the crypt at Winterfell was a hint to viewers who knew what he was talking about, but Sansa would have no reason to interpret what he said as having any additional meaning.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

dtle said:


> I just realized that with the Hodor plot, GRRM has established that the Common Tongue is indeed *English*.


Lucky for us, huh?


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Base on the episode title, I thought the entire episode would be about how the dragons got in and out of the dungeon.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> Back in Season 3, Davos pronounced knight "kah-nigit". So whether one considers the Common Tongue to be English or simply interprets that as ideas in addition to words being "translated" for us, nothing has changed with the Hodor plot in regards to this.


Sam's girlfriend Gilly also noted some English pronunciation confusions from when she first learned 'Common.'


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

goblue97 said:


> Base on the episode title, I thought the entire episode would be about how the dragons got in and out of the dungeon.


It seems like this season the titles are specifically for one event in the episode. Other season episode titles were more broad.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

john4200 said:


> Although Littlefinger referred to Jon as Sansa's brother (and half-brother) in this episode, even though there seems little reason for Littlefinger to keep up the secret of Jon's parentage when it is just him and Sansa (and Brienne). I suppose you could argue that Littlefinger was just talking about it from the point of view of the men in Jon's army which was the thing of relevance in that conversation. But it still seems strange that Littlefinger would say "brother", and then "half-brother" but not mention the cousin part, if he knew about it.


I think you misinterpret this.

Littlefinger (and I suspect others) likely has information telling them that Lyanna was a willing partner to running off with Rhaegar. What is likely not very well known is if she was in fact pregnant. In fact Littlefinger was not involved in Kings Landing politics by the time the war was winding down.

Varys would have been and might have known and suspected, but after Rhaegar and Lyanna ran they pretty much went into hiding. Other than the Kingguard I doubt anyone knew about a potential pregnancy.

And certainly none of them would know of whatever deathbed promise Lyanna extorted from Ned, but whatever it was it was big enough of a deal for it to cause Ned concern even until his death.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

john4200 said:


> I was responding to a post which claimed that Littlefinger had hinted at it many times. If he wants to keep it to himself, then why hint at it? The most logical answer would be that he has not actually hinted at it.


I think he was only hinting that the official story is not the real story (Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna). Nothing more can be read into that.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rhaegar left Kingsguard behind to guard the Tower of Joy even after he left and went off to die in the war. Anyone who knew this fact should be able to make some logical assumptions about why he would have done that.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Rhaegar left Kingsguard behind to guard the Tower of Joy even after he left and went off to die in the war. Anyone who knew this fact should be able to make some logical assumptions about why he would have done that.


How many people in Westoros have time to dwell on this, though?

The person who most would want to know who the hell Jon Snow is and why he brought to winterfell is Catelyn Stark, and she never put it together.

Littlefinger's ambitions and attentions were still on the Vale at the time of the war. Why would he put any time or thought into it?

Are there pieces there for someone in Westoros to figure it out? And for it to be plausible? Of course, but just like the Baratheon children, sometimes the truth can be staring you in the face and no one put it together.

It was not uncommon for men to go off to war and sire bastards. It was expected. Where Ned was different is that he brought his home. But Ned was different. LIke any other man sought comfort in a woman's arms, but instead of abandoning the bastad child, brings the child home to be raised with his own. The explanation is sufficient if you remove the intrigue and drama from the story.

Even book fans find the most comelling evidence to be not the relationship of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but Ned's own mysterious thoughts concerning Jon and his long ago promise to Lyanna.

I won't be tore up if Littlefinger says he knew all along, but I think it is a reach based on what little he has revealed.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> How many people in Westoros have time to dwell on this, though?


I don't think it's common knowledge that Rhaegar left Kingsguard to guard the tower. However, I suspect a few people other than Ned and Howland knew this info. Given that Littlefinger, like Varys, seems to have quite an appetite for information and is able to gather and use that information to his advantage, I suspect he's one of the few that would have access to this information and the smarts to put the puzzle together.



Shaunnick said:


> Littlefinger's ambitions and attentions were still on the Vale at the time of the war. Why would he put any time or thought into it?


Littlefinger spent many years as a brother owner in King's Landing between the two wars. This is when he rose to power by trading on all the secrets that he was able to obtain. I suspect he figured out the R+L=J thing many years ago and it's just one of hundreds of pieces of information that he's holding close to his vest to be used when it will benefit him most.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

My wife sure picked a doozy of an episode as her first one to watch with me!

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

MacThor said:


> My wife sure picked a doozy of an episode as her first one to watch with me!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


Any chance you could turn off the Tapatalk spam that gets included every time you post from your SM-G920P (whatever that is)? It would be greatly appreciated.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

So what are the chances that a teenage girl pulling a teenage boy on a sled would be able to outrun the Night's King and the rest of the White Walkers and their armies all the way back to the Wall? Especially now that Bran has the "Mark" and the Night's King can find him wherever he is?

So that leads me to one of two conclusions: 

A) The Night's King was really only interested in killing the Three-Eyed Raven and is going to let Bran and Meera escape (unlikely), or 

B) Bran is going to discover and use some awesome powers when the Night's King catches up to them. 

Looking forward to B.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think it's common knowledge that Rhaegar left Kingsguard to guard the tower. However, I suspect a few people other than Ned and Howland knew this info. Given that Littlefinger, like Varys, seems to have quite an appetite for information and is able to gather and use that information to his advantage, I suspect he's one of the few that would have access to this information and the smarts to put the puzzle together.
> 
> Littlefinger spent many years as a brother owner in King's Landing between the two wars. This is when he rose to power by trading on all the secrets that he was able to obtain. I suspect he figured out the R+L=J thing many years ago and it's just one of hundreds of pieces of information that he's holding close to his vest to be used when it will benefit him most.


Littlefinger rose to power under Jon Arryn, who brought him from the Vale with him under the influence of Lysa Tully.

I agree that he is the kind to get information, and like I said the pieces are there. There just has not been sufficient indication he knows more than what he already hinted at.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> So what are the chances that a teenage girl pulling a teenage boy on a sled would be able to outrun the Night's King and the rest of the White Walkers and their armies all the way back to the Wall? Especially now that Bran has the "Mark" and the Night's King can find him wherever he is?
> 
> So that leads me to one of two conclusions:
> 
> ...


C) Unknown hero. Who is left north of the wall we know? Rattleshirt is dead, Craster is dead. Anyone else?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> So what are the chances that a teenage girl pulling a teenage boy on a sled would be able to outrun the Night's King and the rest of the White Walkers and their armies all the way back to the Wall? Especially now that Bran has the "Mark" and the Night's King can find him wherever he is?
> 
> So that leads me to one of two conclusions:
> 
> ...


Didn't the Night's King (NK) let Sam go a few seasons ago or was that some other White Walker?

Also if "the mark" really allows the NK to get around magical barriers, it would be in his best interest to let Bran go in case he travels south of the Wall. That would let the NK and his army get through the Wall.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> C) Unknown hero. Who is left north of the wall we know? Rattleshirt is dead, Craster is dead. Anyone else?


Benjen Stark!


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Was there any indication of Ned trying to share that info (R + L = J) with anyone before he lost his head? Did he even have a chance to? Maybe I should go back and re-watch (that's twice now in one day).


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

jdfs said:


> I agree, the Arya storyline is the worst part of the show. It better have some giant payoff in the end. I loath every second when she comes on screen since she has been in Braavos.


I liked when the blond girl dropped her staff, though. Bad-ass.



DevdogAZ said:


> So what are the chances that a teenage girl pulling a teenage boy on a sled would be able to outrun the Night's King and the rest of the White Walkers and their armies all the way back to the Wall? Especially now that Bran has the "Mark" and the Night's King can find him wherever he is?


Yes! We escaped the snow monsters by running 50 yards into the snow storm!

BTW, where do you think Yara and Theon are off to?

The whole Hodor thing makes me wonder how much the writers talked things over with GRRM. Did they at least discuss the major arcs? That's a pretty cool origin story explaining his name. If GRRM *didn't* come up with it....

Does GRRM now have to worry about plagiarizing things the TV writers come up with?


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

goblue97 said:


> Was there any indication of Ned trying to share that info (R + L = J) with anyone before he lost his head? Did he even have a chance to? Maybe I should go back and re-watch (that's twice now in one day).


No. But there's the knight who was with Ned when he saved her. (The back stabber.) Was that Sam's dad? If that knight is alive (Sam's dad is), a Noble witness might help if Jon needs to establish his parentage.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tlc said:


> No. But there's the knight who was with Ned when he saved her. (The back stabber.) Was that Sam's dad? If that knight is alive (Sam's dad is), a Noble witness might help if Jon needs to establish his parentage.


It wasn't Sam's dad. It was Jojen and Meera's dad. Jojen died trying to get Bran to the Raven's tree, and Meera is the girl who is currently pulling Bran's sled.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> I suspect he figured out the R+L=J thing many years ago and it's just one of hundreds of pieces of information that he's holding close to his vest to be used when it will benefit him most.


Plus as long as Ned was alive, he probably wouldn't have told it because it might have drawn Ned and Kat closer. I'm sure he loved the idea of Ned having to come home with Jon and explain him to her. 



DevdogAZ said:


> It wasn't Sam's dad. It was Jojen and Meera's dad. Jojen died trying to get Bran to the Raven's tree, and Meera is the girl who is currently pulling Bran's sled.


Do we know if he's still alive? I wonder why he didn't go with Bran himself if he's alive and in good health. He's someone else who probably still has a role to play.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Rhaegar left Kingsguard behind to guard the Tower of Joy even after he left and went off to die in the war. Anyone who knew this fact should be able to make some logical assumptions about why he would have done that.


True, but there are several logical and plausible assumptions as to why he would do so, and her being pregnant is just one that, in my mind anyway, is not any more or less plausible than any of the others. After all, if Rhaegar was so infatuated with Lyanna that he would abduct her and be willing to start a war over that abduction, then it's implausible to think that he would want to protect his prize by hiding her faraway and by leaving a few of his Kingsguard to watch over her.

I have always thought it was curious that Rhaegar would stash her in Dorne of all places, since his actual wife was Elia Martell, of Dorne. Such gall to hide his mistress hostage away in the land of his wife and her family.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> Do we know if he's still alive? I wonder why he didn't go with Bran himself if he's alive and in good health. He's someone else who probably still has a role to play.


We don't know he's dead which is good enough for me.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

goblue97 said:


> Was there any indication of Ned trying to share that info (R + L = J) with anyone before he lost his head? Did he even have a chance to? Maybe I should go back and re-watch (that's twice now in one day).


In his last conversation with Jon Snow, Ned promised him they would discuss his mother next time they talked. He never saw him again....


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Such gall to hide his mistress hostage away in the land of his wife and her family.


Hidden in plain sight.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

tlc said:


> The whole Hodor thing makes me wonder how much the writers talked things over with GRRM. Did they at least discuss the major arcs? That's a pretty cool origin story explaining his name. If GRRM *didn't* come up with it....
> 
> Does GRRM now have to worry about plagiarizing things the TV writers come up with?


My understanding is that GRRM has shared a draft (still being finished up, going through editing, etc.) of the next book, and an outline to the end.

He also did say something about some events being forced to happen somewhat differently since different people have already died in books vs. shows.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

tlc said:


> The whole Hodor thing makes me wonder how much the writers talked things over with GRRM. Did they at least discuss the major arcs? That's a pretty cool origin story explaining his name. If GRRM *didn't* come up with it....


I recall speculation on this very forum that his name was derived from holding a door, and pointing at the upcoming episode "The Door" as possibly being about that...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> True, but there are several logical and plausible assumptions as to why he would do so, and her being pregnant is just one that, in my mind anyway, is not any more or less plausible than any of the others. After all, if Rhaegar was so infatuated with Lyanna that he would abduct her and be willing to start a war over that abduction, then it's implausible to think that he would want to protect his prize by hiding her faraway and by leaving a few of his Kingsguard to watch over her.
> 
> I have always thought it was curious that Rhaegar would stash her in Dorne of all places, since his actual wife was Elia Martell, of Dorne. Such gall to hide his mistress hostage away in the land of his wife and her family.


Yes, there are several inferences that can be drawn from that. Since I haven't read the books, the real question is how many people in Westeros knew these facts:

1. Rhaegar left Kingsguard behind to guard Lyanna in the Tower of Joy.
2. The Kingsguard were clearly instructed not to leave their post even if they got word that Rhaegar had been killed.
3. Ned Stark went to the Tower of Joy to rescue his sister.
4. Ned Stark (and Howland Reed) defeated the Kingsguard that were tasked with protecting Lyanna.
5. Despite the fact that Ned defeated the Kingsguard and should have been able to rescue Lyanna, she was never seen again.
6. Ned returned from war with a "bastard" son, which didn't make sense with the timeline of the war and also didn't make sense given Ned's reputation.

I'm assuming that most of this info wasn't common knowledge. But I'm guessing someone like Littlefinger was able to find out most, if not all of these things, especially given his obsession with Catelyn and therefore his desire to somehow discredit Ned. Once Littlefinger had all of those pieces of info, it would be hard to come to any other conclusion than that Jon is Lyanna's son.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Once Littlefinger had all of those pieces of info, it would be hard to come to any other conclusion than that Jon is Lyanna's son.


And, importantly, Jon is Rhaegar's son, and might have some potential claim to the Iron Throne...


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

ct1 said:


> And, importantly, Jon is Rhaegar's son, and might have some potential claim to the Iron Throne...


Which he could never have exercised since taking the Black, but those oaths expired at his death, so...


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

morac said:


> Didn't the Night's King (NK) let Sam go a few seasons ago or was that some other White Walker?
> 
> Also if "the mark" really allows the NK to get around magical barriers, it would be in his best interest to let Bran go in case he travels south of the Wall. That would let the NK and his army get through the Wall.


Sam killed that dude.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> Benjen Stark!


Let's not get carried away now.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

goblue97 said:


> Was there any indication of Ned trying to share that info (R + L = J) with anyone before he lost his head? Did he even have a chance to? Maybe I should go back and re-watch (that's twice now in one day).


He promised to share it with Jon when they next met.

Father fail.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ct1 said:


> Which he could never have exercised since taking the Black, but those oaths expired at his death, so...


Which might be a large part of the reason Ned encouraged him to join the Nights Watch, because he knew that if Jon's true parentage were ever made public, he would be thrust into the power struggles and political intrigue that Ned despised and certainly didn't want his kids to be part of.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yes, there are several inferences that can be drawn from that. Since I haven't read the books, the real question is how many people in Westeros knew these facts:
> 
> 1. Rhaegar left Kingsguard behind to guard Lyanna in the Tower of Joy.
> 2. The Kingsguard were clearly instructed not to leave their post even if they got word that Rhaegar had been killed.
> ...


Wut?

Ned married Catelyn, knocked her up with Robb, rode off to war. a year later he shows up with an infant a few months younger than Robb. How does the timeline not fit?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Okay I have issues believing Jon is Lyanna's son. Mainly because the way Cat treated him she clearly thought he was Ned's bastard. If Ned and Cat were as close as we are led to believe, would he really allow her to think that and allow Jon to be treated with so much animosity from her all those years? If that's true, I think my feelings toward Ned have changed more than if he just got stupid and had sex with another woman. This has always bothered me.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Which might be a large part of the reason Ned encouraged him to join the Nights Watch, because he knew that if Jon's true parentage were ever made public, he would be thrust into the power struggles and political intrigue that Ned despised and certainly didn't want his kids to be part of.


I'll have to go back and rewatch, but I am pretty sure Ned and Benjen both advised Jon against it. Ned was proud of Jon for it, though, and thankful for the timing (since it would remove Jon from Winterfell in his absense without him having to take his bastard to King's Landing) but I never recall Ned encouraging Jon to go to the Night's Watch.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay I have issues believing Jon is Lyanna's son. Mainly because the way Cat treated him she clearly thought he was Ned's bastard. If Ned and Cat were as close as we are led to believe, would he really allow her to think that and allow Jon to be treated with so much animosity from her all those years? If that's true, I think my feelings toward Ned have changed more than if he just got stupid and had sex with another woman. This has always bothered me.


Ned was a man who kept his word. Always. Absolutely.

If Lyanna got him to give his word to tell no one about Jon, then Ned would have told no one.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

john4200 said:


> Ned was a man who kept his word. Always. Absolutely.
> 
> If Lyanna got him to give his word to tell no one about Jon, then Ned would have told no one.


A man and his word is worth less than a son's entire self worth IMO so yeah.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Wut?
> 
> Ned married Catelyn, knocked her up with Robb, rode off to war. a year later he shows up with an infant a few months younger than Robb. How does the timeline not fit?


I'm not saying it wasn't physically possible based on the timing. But Ned was at war and wasn't likely to be creating a relationship with some random woman in the evenings. And then when you couple that with all the other pieces that I listed, especially the part about the Kingsguard staying to guard the tower even after Rhaegar was dead and the part about Ned defeating the Kingsguard but not returning home with Lyanna, then the obvious inference would be that the Kingsguard were protecting Lyanna because she was carrying a Targaryen heir, Lyanna died in childbirth, and Ned took the baby home with him to Winterfell, not telling anyone who his true parents were because the Targaryens had just been deposed and that would make the baby a target.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay I have issues believing Jon is Lyanna's son. Mainly because the way Cat treated him she clearly thought he was Ned's bastard. If Ned and Cat were as close as we are led to believe, would he really allow her to think that and allow Jon to be treated with so much animosity from her all those years? If that's true, I think my feelings toward Ned have changed more than if he just got stupid and had sex with another woman. This has always bothered me.


Ned was sworn to secrecy by his sister. He barely knew Catelyn when they got married and spent the first year of their marriage away at war. It is not a stretch he didn't tell her the truth when he got back. They grew to love each other over time, but Ned took an oath. As to Jon's treatment, it was only ever Catelyn and Sansa (to a lesser extent) that treated him badly. Everyone else treated him fairly, and the other siblings treated him as one of them.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm not saying it wasn't physically possible based on the timing. But Ned was at war and wasn't likely to be creating a relationship with some random woman in the evenings. And then when you couple that with all the other pieces that I listed, especially the part about the Kingsguard staying to guard the tower even after Rhaegar was dead and the part about Ned defeating the Kingsguard but not returning home with Lyanna, then the obvious inference would be that the Kingsguard were protecting Lyanna because she was carrying a Targaryen heir, Lyanna died in childbirth, and Ned took the baby home with him to Winterfell, not telling anyone who his true parents were because the Targaryens had just been deposed and that would make the baby a target.


Ahhhh, but what if that woman was Ashara Dayne? She and Ned already had a relationship before hand and were in love, and she did commit suicide shortly before the war ended, but after Ned married another woman. Catelyn even mentioned Ashara in Ep1 of S1.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> A man and his word is worth less than a son's entire self worth IMO so yeah.


The only people treating Jon bad were Catelyn and Sansa. Catelyn was contemptuous and Sansa just ignored him. It sucked, but Ned probably thought it was a small price.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> A man and his word is worth less than a son's entire self worth IMO so yeah.


It would mostly be for the boy's safety. If King Robert had even dreamed the boy might have a Targareyn father, he'd have him killed.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

photoshopgrl said:


> A man and his word is worth less than a son's entire self worth IMO so yeah.


Well, Jon probably wasn't Ned's son. 

But my point was not that Ned was a good man for keeping his word. The point was that Ned keeping his word is a possible explanation for how he could allow Cat to treat Jon badly and not tell her Jon's parentage (assuming he is not Jon's father).


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Shaunnick said:


> Ned was sworn to secrecy by his sister.


You say that like it is a fact instead of a supposition. It could be that Ned swore to protect Jon, or to treat him like his son, rather than swearing to tell no one of Jon's parentage. Maybe there was room in his oath to tell Cat the truth...but he just chose not to.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Howie said:


> ... she replied that she was watching the previous episode with her parents, and when the fire scene came on at the end her father yelled out "Again?"


Meanwhile every other man who was *not* her father was yelling the same, but without the question mark: "Again!"


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Not giving you a hard time, but this one was very noteworthy. When they said he escaped the Red Wedding, I really hoped he would resurface eventually. It was clear that he was a fierce fighter.
> 
> And he would absolutely and without hesitation join Sansa and Jon. He will want revenge on the Boltons and Frey (once they were done with the Boltons) for what they did to his *sister *and her children.


His niece, no?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> Ned was sworn to secrecy by his sister. He barely knew Catelyn when they got married and spent the first year of their marriage away at war. It is not a stretch he didn't tell her the truth when he got back. They grew to love each other over time, but Ned took an oath. As to Jon's treatment, it was only ever Catelyn and Sansa (to a lesser extent) that treated him badly. Everyone else treated him fairly, and the other siblings treated him as one of them.


I think it's important to add that Catelyn was supposed to marry Ned's brother but he got killed (I believe); so Ned, being the honorable man he was, married Catelyn in his brother's place. Shortly after that he was off to war.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

So this little bit of spoiler was already mentioned a while back:



Spoiler



The actor who plays Thoros of Myr is being brought back. I didn't know (until today) that he is the one who brings Catelyn back to life (as Lady Stoneheart).

Could it be that Lady Stoneheart is already up and about, and hanging out with her uncle Black Fish? Could Brienne be riding to a big surprise reunion?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

wprager said:


> I think it's important to add that Catelyn was supposed to marry Ned's brother but he got killed (I believe); so Ned, being the honorable man he was, married Catelyn in his brother's place. Shortly after that he was off to war.


Ned's father and older brother went to King's Landing to protest the abduction of their daughter/sister and were roasted alive by the mad king. That's what started the war.


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## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

wprager said:


> So this little bit of spoiler was already mentioned a while back:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I believe this is what would coincide with the Brienne/Stoneheart story line that was at the end of the 5th book, where Stoneheart seems to kill Brienne. So maybe they will not be skipping over that stuff, like they skipped Jennie Poole and put Sansa into that role and sent the pink letter after Jon died.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yes, there are several inferences that can be drawn from that. Since I haven't read the books, the real question is how many people in Westeros knew these facts: 1. Rhaegar left Kingsguard behind to guard Lyanna in the Tower of Joy. 2. The Kingsguard were clearly instructed not to leave their post even if they got word that Rhaegar had been killed. 3. Ned Stark went to the Tower of Joy to rescue his sister. 4. Ned Stark (and Howland Reed) defeated the Kingsguard that were tasked with protecting Lyanna. 5. Despite the fact that Ned defeated the Kingsguard and should have been able to rescue Lyanna, she was never seen again. 6. Ned returned from war with a "bastard" son, which didn't make sense with the timeline of the war and also didn't make sense given Ned's reputation. I'm assuming that most of this info wasn't common knowledge. But I'm guessing someone like Littlefinger was able to find out most, if not all of these things, especially given his obsession with Catelyn and therefore his desire to somehow discredit Ned. Once Littlefinger had all of those pieces of info, it would be hard to come to any other conclusion than that Jon is Lyanna's son.


I'd say 3, 4, 5, and 6 are pretty well known.

You're giving Littlefinger too much credit.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

ct1 said:


> And, importantly, Jon is Rhaegar's son, and might have some potential claim to the Iron Throne...


I rewatched s01e01 today and I think Benjen alluded to this. He was discouraging Jon from taking the black: None of us will ever father sons/I don't care about that/You might, if you knew what it meant.

I didn't read much into it the first time but note I wonder if it's something more.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Sam killed that dude.


No, wrong white walker. You are talking about the one back in season 3 (or 4??) that Sam kills after sneaking Gilly out of Crasters keep. He was talking about the scene in the Season 2 finale, where we see the white walker army for the first time. The nights watch is up north of the wall. Sam and a few others are out gather "supplies" when the snow storm comes in. The other guy run but Sam can't. He hides behind a rock as the army walks by, seemingly not noticing Sam. But the the Nights King looks over straight at Sam, but does nothing to him.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> What was that thing, a bunch of bones


Driftwood I think, with them worshipping the drowned God and all.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

astrohip said:


> When Meera, Hodor & Bran were escaping down the tunnel, I kept expecting the _Frozen Donkey Wheel_ to be around the next bend.


The director of this ep, his first GoT, did direct a lot of eps of Lost.


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## Royster (May 24, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay I have issues believing Jon is Lyanna's son. Mainly because the way Cat treated him she clearly thought he was Ned's bastard. If Ned and Cat were as close as we are led to believe, would he really allow her to think that and allow Jon to be treated with so much animosity from her all those years? If that's true, I think my feelings toward Ned have changed more than if he just got stupid and had sex with another woman. This has always bothered me.


Well, because the public story makes her out to have been cheated on. She might know the truth yet still resent Jon Snow for making people think her husband was unfaithful to her.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tlc said:


> The whole Hodor thing makes me wonder how much the writers talked things over with GRRM. Did they at least discuss the major arcs? That's a pretty cool origin story explaining his name.


Very cool video about the making of that final sequence from this episode:






Toward the end of the video, Dan and David say that GRRM told them about the origin of Hodor's name and how that whole situation was to work with Bran basically "short circuiting" Wyllis' brain.

So while technically the show is past the books, I suspect there's still a lot of interaction with GRRM and they're probably not doing much without his blessing.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

So how much did Baelish know about Ramsay before he gave Sansa away to the Boltons?

It seemed to me that most of his obsession with Catelyn got transferred to Sansa and it seemed quite pervy to me the way he'd look at her sometimes.

So he was willing to give her away to the Boltons to further his own ends and didn't know anything about Ramsay but that make Baelish an SOB for doing so.

Or he knew all about Ramsay and his full blown sadism and still gave him Sansa which makes Baelish an even bigger SOB.

I guess the takeaway is that Petry is a real SOB.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> No, wrong white walker. You are talking about the one back in season 3 (or 4??) that Sam kills after sneaking Gilly out of Crasters keep. He was talking about the scene in the Season 2 finale, where we see the white walker army for the first time. The nights watch is up north of the wall. Sam and a few others are out gather "supplies" when the snow storm comes in. The other guy run but Sam can't. He hides behind a rock as the army walks by, seemingly not noticing Sam. But the the Nights King looks over straight at Sam, but does nothing to him.


Yep, that's the scene I was thinking about, though it turns out it wasn't the Nights King, but some other walker.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)




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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> Littlefinger rose to power under Jon Arryn, who brought him from the Vale with him under the influence of Lysa Tully.
> 
> I agree that he is the kind to get information, and like I said the pieces are there. There just has not been sufficient indication he knows more than what he already hinted at.


I think that's book information. As far as the show is concerned, I believe Littlefinger has talked about things as if he were there and in the know. The story he told Sansa during one of the jousting games about how Raegar gave the blue flower to Ned's sister (forget her name) instead of his wife (after winning the tournament) implied that he was right there in the thick of things and knew what was really going on.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yes, there are several inferences that can be drawn from that. Since I haven't read the books, the real question is how many people in Westeros knew these facts:
> 
> 1. Rhaegar left Kingsguard behind to guard Lyanna in the Tower of Joy.
> 2. The Kingsguard were clearly instructed not to leave their post even if they got word that Rhaegar had been killed.
> ...


One more point to make/add to your list: He fought side by side for an entire year with his best friend, Robert Baratheon, all the way to King's Landing. Yet Robert had no clue who Ned had the affair and bastard with and was incredulous that Ned even slept with another woman, period.

All these clues were there. As a show watcher, I recall posting the theory that Jon is who we think he is and thinking I was making a genius deduction that everyone missed. People quickly posted that this theory has been around for years and welcomed me to the party.

My point is that these clues were put in the show and they rise to a level where it would be surprising if the theory is not true at this point. I can only assume there are even more clues in the books.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

And here I thought the episode "The Door" was about a second door into the place the dragons are being held. 

&#128512;


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> No, wrong white walker. You are talking about the one back in season 3 (or 4??) that Sam kills after sneaking Gilly out of Crasters keep. He was talking about the scene in the Season 2 finale, where we see the white walker army for the first time. The nights watch is up north of the wall. Sam and a few others are out gather "supplies" when the snow storm comes in. The other guy run but Sam can't. He hides behind a rock as the army walks by, seemingly not noticing Sam. But the the Nights King looks over straight at Sam, but does nothing to him.


I always thought that was a direction issue and not so much a story issue (meaning the director wanted the awesome finale' shot and could not care for how it would appear when the show came back). As the shot pulls out the WW apparently does not see Sam and all of those zombies walk right past him.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I think that's book information. As far as the show is concerned, I believe Littlefinger has talked about things as if he were there and in the know. The story he told Sansa during one of the jousting games about how Raegar gave the blue flower to Ned's sister (forget her name) instead of his wife (after winning the tournament) implied that he was right there in the thick of things and knew what was really going on.


The tourney at Harrenhall and what happened there is known by the entire kingdom as it was quite the scandal. It would take no special knowledge to be aware of that.

And on it's surface all it showed is Rhaegar had a thing for Lyanna. It did not mean that she reciprocated it.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Robin said:


> I rewatched s01e01 today and I think Benjen alluded to this. He was discouraging Jon from taking the black: None of us will ever father sons/I don't care about that/You might, if you knew what it meant.
> 
> I didn't read much into it the first time but note I wonder if it's something more.


This could give Benjen's (possible) return some purpose. That is, if Ned told him about Jon and the theory is true.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

This guy figured the origin of "Hodor" years ago, but thought at the time he was just being a smartass:

https://ventrellaquest.com/2014/04/20/got-got/


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

3D said:


> This guy figured the origin of "Hodor" years ago, but thought at the time he was just being a smartass:
> 
> https://ventrellaquest.com/2014/04/20/got-got/


Holy Moley! That is unbelievable. And the way the guy got to it (the elevator story) is amazing.

It's a short read, y'all should click on it.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Rewatched a few scenes last night, some thoughts:

* When Littlefinger told Sansa he was leaving for King's Landing, and was leaving her alone at Winterfell, neither of them expressed much dismay about Ramsay at the time. They even commented on how the dad Roose scared them more than Ramsay. And Sansa ended the scene talking about how she was going to use her feminine wiles to control Ramsay, should it come to that.

I believe neither of them thought anyone would do harm to a daughter of Ned Stark, and Littlefinger had no idea what he was leaving Sansa to face.

* The scene with Benjen in S1E1. I didn't catch any "who is Jon Snow really" overtones in that conversation. I think it was just a man who's been in the Nights Watch trying to make sure a potential recruit knew what he was getting into, and what he was giving up.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

secondclaw said:


> So, Bran saw the army of wights facing a tree, was that the actual tree he was hiding out in? Didn't look like it, but when wights and walkers appeared they stood by his tree in a similar manner (though not exactly the same). Did he see the future and connected it to present in a similar way he connected past and present with Wyllis? Or did he see the present, and Wight army was simply nearby staring at another tree?
> 
> Also why would Raven take Bran into the past, to show him Wyllis, unless he knew what was about to happen. It seems like he wanted Bran to realize that he can impact the past.
> And when Bran touched the roots and saw the wights, what / who decided that this is what he was to see?





goblue97 said:


> Wow, I'm confused. Time travel really messes with my mind.
> 
> Can Bran just warg back into younger Bran and stop himself from climbing up the tower and witnessing Jaime and Cersei and thus stopping the chain of events that follow?


I could be wrong, but I think it's more of a stable time-loop thing. It's not a situation where Bran went back and changed a previous timeline; this timeline has always been and always will be the one real timeline, complete with the apparent causality loops. Essentially Bran was destined to create Hodor, and the Raven was just facilitating what he knew would happen anyway.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I maintain that Ned never breathed so much as a hint to anyone about Jon's parentage out of fear for the boy's safety. Not to his wife, not to his brother, not to anyone. It was the only way to be sure.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

astrohip said:


> Holy Moley! That is unbelievable. And the way the guy got to it (the elevator story) is amazing.
> 
> It's a short read, y'all should click on it.


It seemed almost too unbelievable, but the wayback machine confirms this article has been up since 2014 with the same text.


----------



## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

Not sure where to put this, figured it was "safe" here without spoilers, talks about John Snow being alive/not being able to keep a secret...


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

dtle said:


> My speculation is Arya The Girl will "fail" on her mission and kill the "wrong" actress. This will be her last test in becoming one of the Faceless.


These Stark kids are dopes. Bad home schooling.

Bran, well done. Curiousity killed all your cats. Idiot.

Arya, c'mon already. They tell you who to kill, you do it. You don't get to know them, you don't decide who you want to kill, you don't try to talk them out of it. Perhap a different career choice would be wise for you.

Sansa, you're doing a bit better. But probably best to tell Jon everything -- you don't really have many true allies left.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

getreal said:


> So we are to understand that the bearded Wildling head guy is sweet on Brienne, right?


Sweet seems to be the wrong word, but yes. You're right.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

dtle said:


> I just realized that with the Hodor plot, GRRM has established that the Common Tongue is indeed *English*.





Ereth said:


> Why? The actual phrase for "Hold the Door" in whatever the actual common tongue is becomes Hodor's name. Hodors name could easily have been translated for us all this time as well.
> 
> There's no *need* for the common tongue to be English. It's just easier.


The common tongue is English. Only in English are "see" and "sea" homophones; only in English is "sea" spelt with the letter "a". Only in English do "fewer" and "less" have a similar but distinct meaning beloved by grammar nazi.



dcheesi said:


> I could be wrong, but I think it's more of a stable time-loop thing. It's not a situation where Bran went back and changed a previous timeline; this timeline has always been and always will be the one real timeline, complete with the apparent causality loops. Essentially Bran was destined to create Hodor, and the Raven was just facilitating what he knew would happen anyway.


I agree. Bran was advised that the past was fixed unchangeable; if he could not affect the past there would be no reason to warn him so urgently, since his attempts would be fruitless. (Of course, it is always possible that advice was mistaken or a prevarication.) Apparently he can affect the past, but only to fulfill events, never to make actual changes. Breaking poor Willis' mind was an instance of this.

In traditional time-travel stories with a fixed past it is very dangerous to try to change the past, because the easiest way for the universe to have thwarted you is your death. I presume this is the model GRRM is following for TSoI&F.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> So what are the chances that a teenage girl pulling a teenage boy on a sled would be able to outrun the Night's King and the rest of the White Walkers and their armies all the way back to the Wall? Especially now that Bran has the "Mark" and the Night's King can find him wherever he is?
> 
> So that leads me to one of two conclusions:
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly.

Poor Hodor's life bought them about 5 minutes. Hope that's well used.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

astrohip said:


> * The scene with Benjen in S1E1. I didn't catch any "who is Jon Snow really" overtones in that conversation. I* think it was just a man who's been in the Nights Watch *trying to make sure a potential recruit knew what he was getting into, and what he was giving up.


Their commitment to The Watch really isn't that serious, is it?

Jon got out of his.
Sam got out of his.
Dude mentioned above got out of his.

Wimps.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

So Howland Reed is the only living person who knows what happened at the Tower of Joy. He sent his two children to protect Bran and help him realize his mission. Jon is recruiting "lesser" Northern houses, of which Reed is one.

Perhaps Howland Reed will be a key player towards the end of this story. At least he could provide Jon, and the viewers, with answers.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> Their commitment to The Watch really isn't that serious, is it?
> 
> Jon got out of his.
> Sam got out of his.
> ...


Jon fulfilled his until death.

I think Sam is still part of the Night's Watch but he's going to be trained as a Maester to then serve the Night's Watch as such.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> Jon fulfilled his until death.
> 
> I think Sam is still part of the Night's Watch but he's going to be trained as a Maester to then serve the Night's Watch as such.


Right.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

goblue97 said:


> Jon fulfilled his until death.
> 
> I think Sam is still part of the Night's Watch but he's going to be trained as a Maester to then serve the Night's Watch as such.


And Benjen is presumed dead or a WW.

Of course, we're both responding to a post made in jest...but still...


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

There's a theory floating around that it was Euron that set those ships ablaze at Mereen. 

Makes sense especially after this episode and his willingness to help Dany.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> There's a theory floating around that it was Euron that set those ships ablaze at Mereen.
> 
> Makes sense especially after this episode and his willingness to help Dany.


I was thinking that could be what happened after watching this past episode! It makes sense - he's been traveling all over, knows all about Dany's need for ships, etc.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Speaking of the Pyke storyline, how in the world do the Ironborn allow Yarra and Theon to runaway and steal their ships while they're drowning and crowning(tm) Euron? I suspect that some of the crew remained on each ship, so they just allowed some random people to come aboard and give orders?

Based on the terrain they've shown in Pyke, how many trees could there be and how many ships will they be able to build, let alone how long it will take?


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> The common tongue is English. Only in English are "see" and "sea" homophones; only in English is "sea" spelt with the letter "a". Only in English do "fewer" and "less" have a similar but distinct meaning beloved by grammar nazi.


This seems a pedantic argument. You are arguing that the common tongue in a fantasy book, in a world unrelated to ours, published in English, MUST be English because there are English words used by the characters.

There is absolutely *nothing* stopping the common tongue from being a language that does not exist in reality (much like Dothraki did not exist until HBO hired a linguist to create it), but which has those same rules.

The argument that a language *must* be English because the author who wrote it writes in English and out of habit makes English-language-like references is, to my mind, rather silly. It's much like people arguing that Westeros *must* be England, because it bears a vague resemblance to it, and because the events in the book are similar to the War of the Roses. That doesn't make it England, it makes England the starting point for the author to use as background. English is his native tongue and he didn't bother to publish the book in a language none of us spoke, so there are English-isms in it. That doesn't prove that the characters are actually speaking English.

It is EASIER, I'll grant you, for it to be English. But as there is no ENGLAND in the Seven Kingdoms, it is rather impossible for it to BE English.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

goblue97 said:


> Jon fulfilled his until death.
> 
> I think Sam is still part of the Night's Watch but he's going to be trained as a Maester to then serve the Night's Watch as such.


Jon broke his oath with Ygritte. Sam with Gilly. But those are very common and, in fact, practically universal among the Watch.

P.S. Technically the oath is to take no wife and father no children; Jon was, technically, married to Ygritte according to Wildling customs; having unprotected sex is an excellent way to become a father, so I'm pretty sure the _intent_ of the oath was not to have sex even if the letter of the oath said not to father children.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of the Pyke storyline, how in the world do the Ironborn allow Yarra and Theon to runaway and steal their ships while they're drowning and crowning(tm) Euron? I suspect that some of the crew remained on each ship, so they just allowed some random people to come aboard and give orders?
> 
> Based on the terrain they've shown in Pyke, how many trees could there be and how many ships will they be able to build, let alone how long it will take?


You have to keep in mind that these aren't exactly the Einsteins of Westeros. They probably didn't even *have* a King until one guy told another "Hey, what do you wanna bet I can hold my breath underwater longer?"


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

We are going to see either Howland Reed or Benjen in the next episode or the following one. Someone has to save Bran and Meera from their current predicament. Who will it be...??? Find out soon!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

By the way this episode ("The Door") was written by Jack Bender, who also wrote "The Constant" on "Lost".


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)




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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Looking at maps of Westeros/Essos, and that sail from the the Iron Islands to Slaver's Bay is a *long* voyage.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

wprager said:


> Jon broke his oath with Ygritte. Sam with Gilly. But those are very common and, in fact, practically universal among the Watch.
> 
> P.S. Technically the oath is to take no wife and father no children; Jon was, technically, married to Ygritte according to Wildling customs; having unprotected sex is an excellent way to become a father, so I'm pretty sure the _intent_ of the oath was not to have sex even if the letter of the oath said not to father children.


You must have missed the fine print of the oath:

"What happens north of the wall stays north of the wall."


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

BrettStah said:


> You must have missed the fine print of the oath:
> 
> "What happens north of the wall stays north of the wall."


Sam went south (or at least that's what Gilly wished).


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I have to do that elevator button thing at work.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of the Pyke storyline, how in the world do the Ironborn allow Yarra and Theon to runaway and steal their ships while they're drowning and crowning(tm) Euron? I suspect that some of the crew remained on each ship, so they just allowed some random people to come aboard and give orders?


If they were anything like the bunch on shore, they probably cheered them, since Euron wasn't there to cheer instead.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

What ever happened to the fleet that Stannis used to sail his armies north when they swooped in and saved the day north of the wall?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

wprager said:


> By the way this episode ("The Door") was written by Jack Bender, who also wrote "The Constant" on "Lost".


Directed, not written


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> What ever happened to the fleet that Stannis used to sail his armies north when they swooped in and saved the day north of the wall?


They were Uber, so they probably continued on to their next drop off/pick up.

EDIT: This is where the term "u-boat" originated.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

cherry ghost said:


> Directed, not written


I read somewhere that he wrote it.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> What ever happened to the fleet that Stannis used to sail his armies north when they swooped in and saved the day north of the wall?


Probably still at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

wprager said:


> I read somewhere that he wrote it.


Benioff and Weiss wrote it.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of the Pyke storyline, how in the world do the Ironborn allow Yarra and Theon to runaway and steal their ships while they're drowning and crowning(tm) Euron? I suspect that some of the crew remained on each ship, so they just allowed some random people to come aboard and give orders?
> 
> Based on the terrain they've shown in Pyke, how many trees could there be and how many ships will they be able to build, let alone how long it will take?


Well Yarra was giving orders prior to losing out on the ol' Next King Contest, right?

Perhaps she just got there and said "I'm your King-Queen, let's go sailing."


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

goblue97 said:


> Jon fulfilled his until death.
> 
> I think Sam is still part of the Night's Watch but he's going to be trained as a Maester to then serve the Night's Watch as such.


There are so many ways to get out of your contract. It's like the contract doesn't mean much.

Ooh, this Black Watch thing sucks. I'm going to die and then come back so I can quit. Or, I'm going to turn into a WW so I can quit. Or, I'm going to go take some online classes in Maestering so I can quit. And those are just the ones we know about!

Turnover in The Black Watch is worse than Party City in November!!!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of the Pyke storyline, how in the world do the Ironborn allow Yarra and Theon to runaway and steal their ships while they're drowning and crowning(tm) Euron? I suspect that some of the crew remained on each ship, so they just allowed some random people to come aboard and give orders?
> 
> Based on the terrain they've shown in Pyke, how many trees could there be and how many ships will they be able to build, let alone how long it will take?


When New King said "give me 1,000 ships and I'll..." I thought:

"Hmm... that will take about 27 years or so." I mean half the men on the island just left, and the only wood I saw was on New King's crown.

There's a Theon joke in there somewhere.

Perhaps they just need Ragnar and the Vikings. I swear they could build some ships quick on that show.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> Benioff and Weiss wrote it.


Which, by the way, is a good way to tell when it's going to be a *major* episode. They tend to only write the biggies.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)




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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

I still want to know why the rear exit had a door and the front entrance was wide open?


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Robin said:


> I rewatched s01e01 today and I think Benjen alluded to this. He was discouraging Jon from taking the black: None of us will ever father sons/I don't care about that/You might, if you knew what it meant.
> 
> I didn't read much into it the first time but note I wonder if it's something more.


Nah. I take that as a reference to family life and fatherhood. If the theory about Ned covering for Lyanna is true, Ned wouldn't have told anybody. ANYBODY. The whole oaths/promises/honor thing.



JYoung said:


> So how much did Baelish know about Ramsay before he gave Sansa away to the Boltons?
> 
> It seemed to me that most of his obsession with Catelyn got transferred to Sansa and it seemed quite pervy to me the way he'd look at her sometimes.


I think he knew all about Ramsey. It wasn't much of a secret (up there).

At this point, I think Baelish is only obsessed with his own rise to power. He would've married Sansa if it got him a (defensible) House/title/position-of-power. But it was a better play to hand her over, then narc them out to Cersei.



wprager said:


> You have to keep in mind that these aren't exactly the Einsteins of Westeros. They probably didn't even *have* a King until one guy told another "Hey, what do you wanna bet I can hold my breath underwater longer?"


Watching that drowning ceremony, I wondered how many times it ended with "Oops. Who else wants to be king?"

You could get out of the Night's Watch and become King of the Iron Islands at the same time! Dying has so many benefits.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

JFriday said:


> I still want to know why the rear exit had a door and the front entrance was wide open?


To get the dragons in.



tlc said:


> Nah. I take that as a reference to family life and fatherhood. If the theory about Ned covering for Lyanna is true, Ned wouldn't have told anybody. ANYBODY. The whole oaths/promises/honor thing.


I don't think he told anyone. I think Benjen figured it out.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Robin said:


> To get the dragons in.


I was tempted. I'm glad you did it instead of me.


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

JFriday said:


> I still want to know why the rear exit had a door and the front entrance was wide open?


It's like the human anatomy.

Plus the front entrance was protected by magic. I'm not sure if the emergency exit was.


----------



## markbox (May 3, 2004)

JFriday said:


> I still want to know why the rear exit had a door and the front entrance was wide open?


Why so that Wyliss could Hode it of course. ;-)


----------



## markbox (May 3, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of the Pyke storyline, how in the world do the Ironborn allow Yarra and Theon to runaway and steal their ships while they're drowning and crowning(tm) Euron? I suspect that some of the crew remained on each ship, so they just allowed some random people to come aboard and give orders?
> 
> Based on the terrain they've shown in Pyke, how many trees could there be and how many ships will they be able to build, let alone how long it will take?


Yarra is a high level naval commander and the men on those ships were probably use to following her orders. Though I'm surprised "all" the ships left with her. As for finding trees and building ships I assume they will go inland as far as necessary and are quite skilled at building ships quickly being "of the sea". Still, it's bound to take significant time.


----------



## markbox (May 3, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> What ever happened to the fleet that Stannis used to sail his armies north when they swooped in and saved the day north of the wall?


I believe that fleet was used by Jon to bring the Wildlings out of Hardhome. Which means that fleet is perhaps anchored somewhere in the North and may still be under the control of the Knights Watch.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

markbox said:


> Yarra is a high level naval commander and the men on those ships were probably use to following her orders. Though I'm surprised "all" the ships left with her. As for finding trees and building ships I assume they will go inland as far as necessary and are quite skilled at building ships quickly being "of the sea". Still, it's bound to take significant time.


It should take about the same amount of time as it took Littlefinger to get from the Vale to Mole's Town. I expect they'll have a new fleet by next week.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> It should take about the same amount of time as it took Littlefinger to get from the Vale to Mole's Town. I expect they'll have a new fleet by next week.


Speaking of that, how did he get through The Twins and Moat Caillin? Do the Freys and the Boltons still think he's on their side?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of that, how did he get through The Twins and Moat Caillin? Do the Freys and the Boltons still think he's on their side?


He might have been able to avoid The Twins.

He told Sansa his army was at Moat Cailin. I guess we're supposed to assume the Boltons abandoned it when they moved to Winterfell.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> He might have been able to avoid The Twins.
> 
> He told Sansa his army was at Moat Cailin. I guess we're supposed to assume the Boltons abandoned it when they moved to Winterfell.


Hmm, I missed him saying that. But no way would the Boltons abandon Moat Cailin. That's way too strategic of a position.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Ereth said:


> This seems a pedantic argument. You are arguing that the common tongue in a fantasy book, in a world unrelated to ours, published in English, MUST be English because there are English words used by the characters.
> 
> There is absolutely *nothing* stopping the common tongue from being a language that does not exist in reality (much like Dothraki did not exist until HBO hired a linguist to create it), but which has those same rules.


It requires more suspension of disbelief than I possess to think this author would make that kind of mistake. I've read lots of fantasy that makes this kind of error, but in my experience GRRM does not.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of that, how did he get through The Twins and Moat Caillin? Do the Freys and the Boltons still think he's on their side?


Coming from the Vale, one would skip the Twins altogether, since the Kingsroad lies east of the rivers, and you would reach it first, and then head north.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Hmm, I missed him saying that. But no way would the Boltons abandon Moat Cailin. That's way too strategic of a position.


Moat Cailin is only strategic if you want to defend against an army marching north, but it's nearly indefensible if you are trying to defend it from northerners. Plus it's mainly ruins at this point. 
So I'm not sure what strategic importance it would hold for Ramsay now. He's not really worried about any armies from the south, and his hold on the north is tenuous at best. He already had to pull his army to Winterfell to defend it from Stannis. That, and the added dangers of being close to the swamplands and House Reed (loyal to the Starks), with those nasty poison arrows and the ability to wage a guerrilla campaign for an extended period, and it doesn't make sense to stay at the Moat.

Plus, you're ignoring the emotional pull that Winterfell and the Dreadfort would have on Ramsay. Winterfell has always been the seat of power in the North, and a bastard with aspirations of power would concentrate his forces there to make sure he kept it. And the Dreadfort would obviously be something he had dreamed of being in charge of as the illegitimate son of Roose Bolton. Now that he has it, he's not letting that go either.

I have no problem believing it to be deserted.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

As far as the Yara thing, I don't think it's too big a leap to say that many of the Ironborn are loyal to her given her status as the daughter of the king and being the leader of their military (and proven in battle). So I can easily see that she would have a ton of supporters loyal to her and leaving with her because they believe she is the rightful heir to the throne.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

It seems all she needed to do was kill her uncle on the spot. Leaving with the fleet was not the best idea IMO. 

Especially after he admitted to killing the King.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> It seems all she needed to do was kill her uncle on the spot. Leaving with the fleet was not the best idea IMO.
> 
> Especially after he admitted to killing the King.


Agreed. Regicide isn't cool. I expected her to whip out a sword and run him through, instead of staring at Theon with an oh nohzzz expresssion.

I also agree with the almost Monty Pythonish cheering for whoever stepped up to claim the crown. The Iron born seem like a bunch of idiots.

Assuming close-by timber of sufficient quantity and a bunch of shipwrights and carpenters with no other responsibilities, I wonder what's a realistic time to make a warship. I'm figuring it's got to be a year. Considering the motley collection of 80 people at the King's Dunkin' and a similar number running with Yara, they could build 1000 ships in something like 300 years.


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

I don't believe this has been posted in this thread yet. Nice chat with Hodor:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/25/arts/television/game-of-thrones-hodor-feels-your-pain.html?_r=0


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Based on the terrain they've shown in Pyke, how many trees could there be and how many ships will they be able to build, let alone how long it will take?


Pyke is just one island out of a group of many islands of the western coast of northern westoros. It is also the ancesteral home of the Greyjoy family. The other islands are full of trees and vegetation. Pyke itself is as barren as it looks on the show.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Agreed. Regicide isn't cool. I expected her to whip out a sword and run him through, instead of staring at Theon with an oh nohzzz expresssion.


You call it regicide, he called it paying the iron price.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

The whole thing with Yara seemed off. The uncle gets voted in as king. That's fine I guess. She then has enough men that are loyal to her to take ALL the ships (well the good ships). This leaves enough men to "build a thousand" ships. How many iron born are there? They seem to have a mighty big population if Yara's forces (a minority of the forces since she lost the election) sail off with the entire fleet leaving behind a majority of the men who can now build a bunch of ships. 

What the heck?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

vertigo235 said:


> It seems all she needed to do was kill her uncle on the spot. Leaving with the fleet was not the best idea IMO.
> 
> Especially after he admitted to killing the King.


I assumed there are rules for the King's Moot (or whatever the heck the debate is) prohibit killing your opponent.

But then again, I had assumed the whole thing would have been a duel between the wanna-be kings anyway, considering the Iron Price and all that...


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Maybe a breath-holding contest! The last one who drowns wins.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> It requires more suspension of disbelief than I possess to think this author would make that kind of mistake. I've read lots of fantasy that makes this kind of error, but in my experience GRRM does not.


While at the same time assuming he made the error of having the language be English when England, where the language was created, doesn't exist, where the history of the island, with the various invasions necessary to mutate the language into what we now know as English, never happened?


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Ereth said:


> While at the same time assuming he made the error of having the language be English when England, where the language was created, doesn't exist, where the history of the island, with the various invasions necessary to mutate the language into what we now know as English, never happened?


Wait, who said that the English in that world came from England? Sure, our English did, but their exactly equivalent English language could have come about in a totally different way..

(Prequel Novel -- The origin of English, by GRRM.)


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Ereth said:


> While at the same time assuming he made the error of having the language be English when England, where the language was created, doesn't exist, where the history of the island, with the various invasions necessary to mutate the language into what we now know as English, never happened?


That is exactly as relevant as Westros inhabitants being human beings in spite of having evolved on a planet with a completely different geologic history. But if the Common Tongue does not consist of the same words and structure as modern English, "see" and "sea" would not sound alike nor would the other examples of distinctly English usage make any sense.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

jakerock said:


> The whole thing with Yara seemed off. The uncle gets voted in as king. That's fine I guess. She then has enough men that are loyal to her to take ALL the ships (well the good ships). This leaves enough men to "build a thousand" ships. How many iron born are there? They seem to have a mighty big population if Yara's forces (a minority of the forces since she lost the election) sail off with the entire fleet leaving behind a majority of the men who can now build a bunch of ships.
> 
> What the heck?


I assumed it was a completely unreasonable demand. We've all heard politicians make those right? I won't name names, I don't want this moved to the political forum.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

English is truly a universal language.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Robin said:


> I assumed it was a completely unreasonable demand. We've all heard politicians make those right? I won't name names, I don't want this moved to the political forum.


We will build 1,000 ships and make the Dothraki pay for them!


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Robin said:


> I assumed it was a completely unreasonable demand. We've all heard politicians make those right? I won't name names, I don't want this moved to the political forum.


He'll get the thousand ships built, AND have the Dothraki pay for them!


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

allan said:


> We will build 1,000 ships and make the Dothraki pay for them!





ct1 said:


> He'll get the thousand ships built, AND have the Dothraki pay for them!


Now that was funny... I swear I didn't see your message when I wrote mine..


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

ct1 said:


> Now that was funny... I swear I didn't see your message when I wrote mine..


Yeah, the timestamps are the same.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

allan said:


> English is truly a universal language.


True.

Mork
Marvin the Martian
Yoda

The list goes on and on...


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I assumed there are rules for the King's Moot (or whatever the heck the debate is) prohibit killing your opponent.
> 
> But then again, I had assumed the whole thing would have been a duel between the wanna-be kings anyway, considering the Iron Price and all that...


In the books it's "Kingsmoot". Pretty good for a non-book reader.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> In the books it's "Kingsmoot". Pretty good for a non-book reader.


I always have CC turned on for this show on the first watch. I turn it off on the second so I can look at the actors and scenery more without worrying about missing something

So I kind of know the names that way except for my terrible memory...this is why I wrote Pyter instead of Petyr...I remembered there was a "Y" in the name, but not exactly where!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> That is exactly as relevant as Westros inhabitants being human beings in spite of having evolved on a planet with a completely different geologic history. But if the Common Tongue does not consist of the same words and structure as modern English, "see" and "sea" would not sound alike nor would the other examples of distinctly English usage make any sense.


"Why do the humanoid characters on Pandora have 4 limbs when every other species on the planet has 6?"
"Because this is a film for human beings".

It's English because the author writes in English, for English-speaking readers. reading anything more into it than that is an exercise in futility. Trying to argue that it *must* be the actual English language is a pointless exercise. All the examples you cite are easily countered with "The real comparison was translated to English so you would understand it".

This must be one of the most pointless arguments in the history of arguments.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Ereth said:


> This must be one of the most pointless arguments in the history of arguments.


You must not read the Big Bang threads.:-D


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Robin said:


> I assumed it was a completely unreasonable demand. We've all heard politicians make those right? I won't name names, I don't want this moved to the political forum.


OK point taken. I assume you are referring to "Bran the Builder" and that ridiculous wall of his. Giant wall of ice. Like that's even possible.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

ej42137 said:


> That is exactly as relevant as Westros inhabitants being human beings in spite of having evolved on a planet with a completely different geologic history. But if the Common Tongue does not consist of the same words and structure as modern English, "see" and "sea" would not sound alike nor would the other examples of distinctly English usage make any sense.


What a tedious train of thought this is. Have you never read anything, particularly poetry, in translation?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Ereth said:


> "Why do the humanoid characters on Pandora have 4 limbs when every other species on the planet has 6?"
> "Because this is a film for human beings".
> 
> It's English because the author writes in English, for English-speaking readers. reading anything more into it than that is an exercise in futility. Trying to argue that it *must* be the actual English language is a pointless exercise. All the examples you cite are easily countered with "The real comparison was translated to English so you would understand it".
> ...


No it isn't ... ?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> No it isn't ... ?


I would argue with you. But that would make you right.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

wprager said:


> No it isn't ... ?


That's not an argument -- that's just contradiction.


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)




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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

She could do a lot worse...


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## orangetoes (Jun 8, 2007)

markp99 said:


>


I've been lurking on here for years apparently waiting for THIS picture. I imagine this is what I look like whenever I'm feeling the urge....


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

orangetoes said:


> I've been lurking on here for years apparently waiting for THIS picture. I imagine this is what I look like whenever I'm feeling the urge....


And is the look on Brienne's face what you get in return?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

They both are really great (if not ridiculously over-animated) facial expressions.

I hope to see that gif used all over the place online. Perhaps it can become one of those memes I hear so much about.

I imagine his look is about what my face looks like when I see an apple fritter.


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## orangetoes (Jun 8, 2007)

Robin said:


> And is the look on Brienne's face what you get in return?


After almost 20 years of marriage? Yepper....


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

orangetoes said:


> After almost 20 years of marriage? Yepper....


Preach it!


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## markbox (May 3, 2004)

Ereth said:


> "Why do the humanoid characters on Pandora have 4 limbs when every other species on the planet has 6?"
> "Because this is a film for human beings".
> 
> It's English because the author writes in English, for English-speaking readers. reading anything more into it than that is an exercise in futility. Trying to argue that it *must* be the actual English language is a pointless exercise. All the examples you cite are easily countered with "The real comparison was translated to English so you would understand it".
> ...


No its not.

Yes it is...



As long as I can understand what they are saying I don't care what pretend language they are speaking. ;-)


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

markbox said:


> No its not.
> 
> Yes it is...


I believe you owe John Cleese £5.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

markp99 said:


>


Re-enacted nightly in my house at about 10 pm.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Re-enacted nightly in my house at about 10 pm.


is it the boredom of threesomes every night or because the guy in the middle doesn't give a darn?


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## Royster (May 24, 2002)

tlc said:


> Nah. I take that as a reference to family life and fatherhood. If the theory about Ned covering for Lyanna is true, Ned wouldn't have told anybody. ANYBODY. The whole oaths/promises/honor thing.


Doesn't anyone get foreshadowing/irony anymore? Authors *often* have characters say things which are truer than they suspect. Benjen doesn't have to know about Jon to make inadvertently portentous statements.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

In the third episode Benjen tells Jon "we'll speak when I return" as he leaves for beyond the wall.

Either Jon has the worst luck when it comes to promises of an information reveal (recall Ned telling him he'd tell him about his mother) or that was more foreshadowing.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention how much I loved Euron's line:

"Where are my niece and nephew? Let's go murder them!".

Almost as good as Rodney Dangerfield's:

"Hey everybody! We're all gonna get laid!"


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)




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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Lots of Hodor memes but this is my favorite:


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Just spent the time to catch up on the thread and noticed nothing about Varys and the Red Woman. She knew that he had heard a voice from the fire. Given that we already know Bran can make his voice heard in his visions of the past, that voice from the fire could have been his and once again a Red Woman is misinterpreting the event as a message from the lord of light.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Just coming here to post that Ikea one!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> Just spent the time to catch up on the thread and noticed nothing about Varys and the Red Woman. She knew that he had heard a voice from the fire. Given that we already know Bran can make his voice heard in his visions of the past, that voice from the fire could have been his and once again a Red Woman is misinterpreting the event as a message from the lord of light.


And Bran is well known as a peeping tom.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I'd be remiss if I didn't mention how much I loved Euron's line:
> 
> "Where are my niece and nephew? Let's go murder them!".


Which makes one wonder if the Iron-yes men are now thinking they chose the wrong King/Queen.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Which makes one wonder if the Iron-yes men are now thinking they chose the wrong King/Queen.


Well, their response to that was pretty enthusiastic.

As usual.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

From reddit - an interesting read about the kingsmoot from the book to the show and how poorly it was handled:

(Spoiler because I don't know why)


Spoiler



The kingsmoot in the books was amazing. An incredible chapter. The kingsmoot in the show was single handedly the most disappointing book to show conversion I've ever seen. There's so much wrong with it. The whole point of Euron winning the moot is because he has something other people don't have: a dragon horn. A horn to bind dragons to his will and therefore the ability to conquer Westeros, so he says.



> "That horn you heard I found amongst the smoking ruins that were Valyria, where no man has dared to walk but me. You heard its call, and felt its power. It is a dragon horn, bound with bands of red gold and Valyrian steel graven with enchantments. The dragonlords of old sounded such horns, before the Doom devoured them. With this horn, ironmen, I can bind dragons to my will."






That makes a lot more sense the the way it went down on HBO.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

nickels said:


> From reddit - an interesting read about the kingsmoot from the book to the show and how poorly it was handled: (Spoiler because I don't know why) * SPOILER * That makes a lot more sense the the way it went down on HBO.


Or that point is now "moot" in that part of the story will not be told.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

nickels said:


> From reddit - an interesting read about the kingsmoot from the book to the show and how poorly it was handled:
> 
> (Spoiler because I don't know why)
> * SPOILER *
> ...


Interesting. Because I've heard that the Kingsmoot in the books was extremely long and tedious and the way the show did it was much better.

But that detail in your spoiler would have made it more compelling. I'm guessing Dan and David just don't want to introduce the extra complexity that would create as the show is nearing the end.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I'd have enjoyed Euron claiming that he already talked to the Dragon Queen and had an agreement that her dragon's and his fleet would conquer the world. I could see a convincing speech to that effect winning over the crowd.

Otherwise, they just picked the dude who killed their king over the loyal, tested heir of the King. Which still doesn't sit right.

But hey, I just want to see the next episode.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> I'd have enjoyed Euron claiming that he already talked to the Dragon Queen and had an agreement that her dragon's and his fleet would conquer the world. I could see a convincing speech to that effect winning over the crowd.
> 
> Otherwise, they just picked the dude who killed their king over the loyal, tested heir of the King. Which still doesn't sit right.
> 
> But hey, I just want to see the next episode.


All you have to do to rule them is to be last to speak and buy the next round of drinks.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Anubys said:


> All you have to do to rule them is to be last to speak and buy the next round of drinks.


That's just the first step. You also have to survive drowning to rule.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

ct1 said:


> That's just the first step. You also have to survive drowning to rule.


That step looked pretty gnarly.

I can't be the only one who was rooting for him to die, and then the inevitable: "Uh, someone go see if Yarra still wants the gig."


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Ereth said:


> "Why do the humanoid characters on Pandora have 4 limbs when every other species on the planet has 6?"
> "Because this is a film for human beings".


Science Fiction writers make this mistake because (a) usually they are poorly grounded in evolutionary biology, and (b) they need to make alien characters relateable. Fantasy has no such problem because they can pick and choose from a corpus of existing fantastic lore. GOT is a Fantasy, GRRM gets to pick and choose what elements he incorporates.



Ereth said:


> It's English because the author writes in English, for English-speaking readers. reading anything more into it than that is an exercise in futility. Trying to argue that it *must* be the actual English language is a pointless exercise. All the examples you cite are easily countered with "The real comparison was translated to English so you would understand it".


That just doesn't work for the examples cited. For example, sea/see only works in English, it could never work in any other language, and it was intrinsic to the point the character was making. I have observed GRRM displaying linguistic sophistication in other works, so I assume when he has the characters expressing thoughts which would only make sense when expressed in English he is doing so mindfully. If Common Tongue doesn't use the same vocabulary, grammar and dictionary as English then GRRM has made an uncharacteristic error consistently throughout the series.



Ereth said:


> This must be one of the most pointless arguments in the history of arguments.


I might point out that you started your part of this with an insult. If you don't like pointless arguments you might try avoiding doing that next time you disagree with another opinion.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Interesting. Because I've heard that the Kingsmoot in the books was extremely long and tedious and the way the show did it was much better.
> 
> But that detail in your spoiler would have made it more compelling. I'm guessing Dan and David just don't want to introduce the extra complexity that would create as the show is nearing the end.


Yes. It got to the point that I just skimmed the entire iron islands portion of the books.

I honestly don't know how the showrunners are going to wrap this story up. Lets assume that they are going to "finish" the story. They have 6 episodes left this season and they have mentioned perhaps splitting 6 and seven into less than 10 episodes. That means that we might have a total of 15-20 more episodes. Since we go entire episodes (or seasons) without seeing some characters and the scenes we do get are only a few minutes a piece, there is going to have to be ALOT of plot events soon. Think about it, (these are all my suppositions):

Dany has to get back to mereen, solve the sons of the harpies, get ships, sail to Westeros and conquer it.

Jon Snow has to get an army, attack and claim Winterfell, and then do something with the lord of light.

Arya has to finish the damn faceless man training, sail back to westeros, kill whoever she wants, then be reunited with her family.

Littlefinger has a bunch of stuff of which I have no idea.

Cersei and Jamie have to defeat the faith militant, take back kings landing, fight Jon snow/Dany

Oh and while all this is going on, the White walkers are doing their stuff.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Add to those some significant Bran time travel events.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

ej42137 said:


> That just doesn't work for the examples cited. For example, sea/see only works in English, it could never work in any other language, and it was intrinsic to the point the character was making. I have observed GRRM displaying linguistic sophistication in other works, so I assume when he has the characters expressing thoughts which would only make sense when expressed in English he is doing so mindfully. If Common Tongue doesn't use the same vocabulary, grammar and dictionary as English then GRRM has made an uncharacteristic error consistently throughout the series.


An obvious question is, where did the Common Tongue come from? On Earth, we had a bunch of people speaking a Germanic language, who got conquered by, of all people, the French eek, resulting in a very odd language with a mix of Germanic and Romance. For English to appear on Westeros, it would need a similar history (or a connection to our world). Or for the viewer to totally ignore lingustics.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

> Sein oder Nichtseindas ist die Frage!


Oh look! Shakespeare's common tongue was German!

And have you read Dante's Inferno? All that rhyming in meter? Clearly that was written in English.


----------



## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

I'd hate to watch GOT where they spoke in some linguists made up language and had to read the English subtitles for the entire time. :down:

I always just figure the show has some TARDIS translation matrix built in so we could understand aliens, fantasy people, talking dogs, etc.

Putting that much though into whether a show is using ACTUAL English would just ruin shows for me.

ETA: except for parts like when the dude trading the Unsullied for a dragon was unaware that Dany spoke the language, but that is done for the storyline. Dracarys! :up:


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> That just doesn't work for the examples cited. For example, sea/see only works in English, it could never work in any other language, and it was intrinsic to the point the character was making.


What stops GRRM from creating a fictional language with the words for sea/see having that characteristic?



> I might point out that you started your part of this with an insult. If you don't like pointless arguments you might try avoiding doing that next time you disagree with another opinion.


I just went back and looked. I do not find any insults. You mind telling me what the heck you are talking about? If you think the word "pedantic" is an insult, you are mistaken.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ereth said:


> If you think the word "pedantic" is an insult, you are mistaken.


Not to be pedantic, but yes, it's pretty insulting...


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

So in support of the idea that they are speaking English, we have instances like the "see/sea" pronunciation, pronunciation of the word knight, and Stannis correcting someone who said "less" instead of "fewer". In support that it isn't English, we have the suggestion that the language being spoken just happens to have those same idiosyncrasies. I'd lean towards them speaking English. Which doesn't make a lot of sense, I admit. 

Anyone know how the foreign language broadcast of this show is handled? Do they all get subtitles for the English dialog, or do they dub over it? If it's dubbed, I am curious how they handle the examples previously mentioned.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> Anyone know how the foreign language broadcast of this show is handled? Do they all get subtitles for the English dialog, or do they dub over it? If it's dubbed, I am curious how they handle the examples previously mentioned.


Whether dubbed or subtitled, the content still has to be translated. However, it's possible those were just throwaway jokes that don't need to be translated because they don't have anything to do with the story or plot, and the foreign versions could just skip those things without most foreign viewers even knowing something was skipped.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Oh look! Shakespeare's common tongue was German!


It's best in the original Klingon


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

An interesting idea that I heard:

Because the Three-Eyed Raven is all knowing, he likely has known for 1,000 year exactly what was going to happen in this episode and that this would be how he died. He knew Bran would go rogue and provoke the Night's King. He knew Bran would have to go back in time and warg into Wyllis. He knew that "Hodor" was created all those decades ago and knew that Bran needed to be in a vision at Winterfell at that precise time to make this all possible.

I'm not sure if the Raven could see events into the future past his lifetime, so I don't know if he can be sure that Bran gets to safety, but we know that he could have given Bran a warning not to go into the vision unchaperoned, and he could have warned the Children about what was coming, or to have more grenades and more dragon-glass spears on hand, but he didn't, because he knew what was going to happen and the "ink was already dry."


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not to be pedantic, but yes, it's pretty insulting...





> adjective
> 1.
> ostentatious in one's learning.
> 2.
> overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, especially in teaching.


I don't see anything insulting in that. It's descriptive, yes. And, in point of fact, I referred to a "pedantic argument" so I absolutely did not insult a user, though if you wish to view it as insulting, you might say I insulted his argument.

I'm not sure there is a way to disagree with someones point without saying his argument is flawed in some way, and that's as strong an insult as "pedantic" is, at least in my mind.

In any case, arguing that specific phrases and words requires that the language be English IN THE STORY, while England, the moors, the saracens, the germans, and everybody else necessary to have created English, seems to me to be arguing the impossible.

It's English, and has English idioms, because it's written in English for English speakers. That the characters are actually aware they are speaking English is not shown to be true by that, as the mere word "English" would be impossible in the scenario provided.

According to Wikipedia, English, Japanese and Korean all have homophones. It seems particularly bizarre, then, to argue that only English could satisfy the requirements of "see/sea", when we know of three languages currently in existence with similar situations. In fact, if Wikipedia is correct, Japanese takes it to greater extremes than English does.



Wikipedia said:


> An extreme example is kikō, which is the pronunciation of at least 22 words ...


.
The best English manages is 7 words with the same pronunciation.

Nonetheless, we, the readers, know that all the dialog in the book, even that in foreign tongues, is actually in English, and it's in English so we can read it. Even Mel Gibson eventually gave up his idea of releasing a movie told entirely in ancient Aramaic (with no subtitles!). Communication is the point, and the story cannot be told as well if we have to stop every few sentences to deal with translations. Look at the hubbub generated by "Ancillary Justice" simply swapping pronouns!

GRRM didn't even bother to create Dothraki. HBO did that. Martin didn't need it, because nobody was ever going to speak it in the book without it having been translated for the reader into English. For forty years or so there was no Klingon language, either, until someone was hired to create one. Were the Klingons speaking English? Of course not, it was just in English so we'd understand it.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Ereth said:


> I don't see anything insulting in that.


The thing is, insults are in the ear of the beholder. That's the way it works.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Ereth said:


> What stops GRRM from creating a fictional language with the words for sea/see having that characteristic?
> 
> I just went back and looked. I do not find any insults. You mind telling me what the heck you are talking about? If you think the word "pedantic" is an insult, you are mistaken.


I don't know...

Someone pointed out that the way GRRM is using the 'common' language (sea/see, etc. and most recently "Hold the Door"/"Hodor") it is now clear that common is basically the same as English. (which I took pretty much as a joke).

You jumped down their throat with (what could come across as) "OMG, You're an idiot -- English comes from England, so 'common' obviously CAN'T be English!"

I'll just agree with you that the whole argument is pointless.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

ct1 said:


> I'll just agree with you that the whole argument is pointless.


And just to end the argument I'll also agree with you that though common matches English exactly, it isn't English, and I swear I'll only refer to it as 'common'.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Ereth said:


> If you think the word "pedantic" is an insult, you are mistaken.


As someone bullied constantly though their childhood I can assure you that any word can be used as an insult


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dianebrat said:


> As someone bullied constantly though their childhood I can assure you that any word can be used as an insult


And I've never heard it used in a way that wasn't at least sneering. It really isn't a nice word!


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not to be pedantic, but yes, it's pretty insulting...


I've been called pedantic as a compliment.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I think that what is confusing people is that you are assuming that he's using the English word pedantic where it is obvious to me that he is using the common tongue version which is used exactly the same way except that it's entirely different.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Oh, now you're just being...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Ereth said:


> I don't see anything insulting in that. It's descriptive, yes. And, in point of fact, I referred to a "pedantic argument" so I absolutely did not insult a user, though if you wish to view it as insulting, you might say I insulted his argument. I'm not sure there is a way to disagree with someones point without saying his argument is flawed in some way, and that's as strong an insult as "pedantic" is, at least in my mind. In any case, arguing that specific phrases and words requires that the language be English IN THE STORY, while England, the moors, the saracens, the germans, and everybody else necessary to have created English, seems to me to be arguing the impossible. It's English, and has English idioms, because it's written in English for English speakers. That the characters are actually aware they are speaking English is not shown to be true by that, as the mere word "English" would be impossible in the scenario provided. According to Wikipedia, English, Japanese and Korean all have homophones. It seems particularly bizarre, then, to argue that only English could satisfy the requirements of "see/sea", when we know of three languages currently in existence with similar situations. In fact, if Wikipedia is correct, Japanese takes it to greater extremes than English does. . The best English manages is 7 words with the same pronunciation. Nonetheless, we, the readers, know that all the dialog in the book, even that in foreign tongues, is actually in English, and it's in English so we can read it. Even Mel Gibson eventually gave up his idea of releasing a movie told entirely in ancient Aramaic (with no subtitles!). Communication is the point, and the story cannot be told as well if we have to stop every few sentences to deal with translations. Look at the hubbub generated by "Ancillary Justice" simply swapping pronouns! GRRM didn't even bother to create Dothraki. HBO did that. Martin didn't need it, because nobody was ever going to speak it in the book without it having been translated for the reader into English. For forty years or so there was no Klingon language, either, until someone was hired to create one. Were the Klingons speaking English? Of course not, it was just in English so we'd understand it.


Hmm. This post seems awfully something. I wish there was a word that fits. Maybe something that begins with a P.

Common just happens to be word for word exactly the same as English. As was carefully crafted by GRRM in his wisdom, foresight and attention to detail.

Done.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

So who dies on Sunday?


I think Ramsey has a few more weeks but is toast soon. The actress in Bravos? Brienne?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

tlc said:


> I've been called pedantic as a compliment.


No, you haven't.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> So who dies on Sunday?


Another Direwolf?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

goblue97 said:


> Another Direwolf?


I was about to comment that I think they're the safest ones this week.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

goblue97 said:


> Another Direwolf?


:down::down::down:

If they kill Ghost I'm going to revolt against this show. (seeing how he's the only one left we've seen since season 1, that is)

I think it depends on how fast we move the clock between last week and this. I think we're going back to the High Sparrow story so maybe he'll get got. Or Margaery. Or they'll free her in a battle and the High Sparrow kills Loras for their betrayal. I honestly gave up trying to guess a single thing on this show.


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> So who dies on Sunday?


Actress in Braavos
Daario
Theon
Rickon

theories off the top of my head

Valar Morghulis.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I _seriously_ doubt Theon dies. That storyline isn't done.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And I've never heard it used in a way that wasn't at least sneering. It really isn't a nice word!


You and I live in completely different worlds. I am literally stunned that you think the word is insulting. I've never in my entire life heard it used in such a way. It's not the first time you've thought a word I think of as fairly neutral has a completely different connotation than I did.

And, to be clear, the pedantic argument I referred to was the one I was involved in, so in order for it to be insulting I would have to be insulting myself as well as the other person involved. I find that thought more than confusing.



ct1 said:


> Someone pointed out that the way GRRM is using the 'common' language (sea/see, etc. and most recently "Hold the Door"/"Hodor") it is now clear that common is basically the same as English. (which I took pretty much as a joke).


They didn't say it was the *basically the same as English* they said it *was* English. There's a difference.



> You jumped down their throat with (what could come across as) "OMG, You're an idiot -- English comes from England, so 'common' obviously CAN'T be English!"


I didn't jump down anybodies throat. I replied that it didn't *have* to be English. I didn't call anybody an idiot, and I didn't make reference to England until several posts into the discussion.

This is that "ear of the beholder" point that Skippy made, apparently.

I'd like to point out that GRRM is not a linguist. Tolkien was and he had to constantly revise The Lord of the Rings because he made language mistakes (up to and including names of characters no longer being allowed because they wouldn't fit the language that he had further refined for that race).

I thought it was silly to be trying to "trap" GRRM into "proof" that the language of his fictional land must be exactly the one he was writing in, when it was clear that these were simply artifacts of the language which he speaks and writes in, and not intended to be "clues" for overly fanatic fans to discover. ("silly" may be construed as insulting, but is not intended as such, only to convey that I never thought the argument had any real significance, that it was, as I've stated before, the most pointless argument in the history of arguments).

Larry Niven is a renowned SF writer, who generally writes in the "hard SF" category. His most famous novel, "Ringworld", opened with the Earth rotating in the wrong direction, something he had to correct in later editions. Whole treatises have been written about the science he got wrong on the Ringworld, and indeed part of the purpose of the sequel was to retroactively correct some of that science.

Writers are human beings. They are not automatically experts in every field in which they write. They make mistakes. You don't get a prize for digging into the minutiae and finding one.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> I honestly gave up trying to guess a single thing on this show.


We are all show watchers now.

The next major character(s) to bite the dust will be in Kings Landing. I have no idea who that might be, but they've been setting us up for it.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

You tend to say someone is "too pedantic" but you'd never say someone was "not pedantic enough". If you can agree with this, then you have to agree that this word is *not* used as a compliment.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

At the risk of being pedantic, I googled the word. The first four links:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/pedantic


> 1. ostentatious in one's learning. [ostentatious: characterized by or given to pretentious or conspicuous show in an attempt to impress others]


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedantic


> 1: of, relating to, or being a pedant [a person who annoys other people by correcting small errors and giving too much attention to minor details]


https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/pedantic


> Pedantic means "like a pedant," someone who's too concerned with literal accuracy or formality. It's a negative term that implies someone is showing off book learning or trivia, especially in a tiresome way. You don't want to go antique-shopping with a pedantic friend, who will use the opportunity to bore you with his in-depth knowledge of Chinese porcelain kitty-litter boxes.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pedantic


> 1. Like a pedant, overly concerned with formal rules and trivial points of learning.


So, we have "pretentious or conspicuous", "a person who annoys other people", "It's a negative term", and "overly concerned".

If that does not indicate negative connotations, I don't know what does. vocabulary.com even said directly that it is a "negative term".

As for the actual argument, I disagree that it has been proven that the language they are speaking is English. If we think of the TV show as being a dramatization of actual events (from a parallel world or whatever), then we can also assume that a very good translator has translated not just the literal meaning of the words, but also figurative meanings. When they are in conflict, they might change the literal meaning in order for the figurative meaning to work. For example, the see/sea thing could have actually been about the mountains, which had words that sounded the same in the original language, but our translator (dramatizer) changed that conversation to be about the sea so that the see/sea homophone in English would convey the gist of the original conversation.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Did everyone enjoy the close up penis shot?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Did everyone enjoy the close up penis shot?


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Another "P" word that isn't Penis or Pedantic. The wall of words that one gets when you poke a certain member is *predictable*.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ereth said:


> You and I live in completely different worlds. I am literally stunned that you think the word is insulting.


Maybe he's just ignorant!


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)




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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Holy Moley! That is unbelievable. And the way the guy got to it (the elevator story) is amazing.
> 
> It's a short read, y'all should click on it.


C'mon. There was a joke on SNL, I think, from Eddie Murphy, "What has 4 legs and goes hodedo! hodedo?" 
GRR remembered that.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Would it be dumb to ask why a cave has a corridor that leads to a door?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

MikeAndrews said:


> Would it be dumb to ask why a cave has a corridor that leads to a door?


Probably designed by the same blacksmith who did the tunnel / gate through the Wall, and the collars for the dragons. That guy really got around, after all.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

And the myriad of doors on the dragons' lair.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

wprager said:


> You tend to say someone is "too pedantic" but you'd never say someone was "not pedantic enough". If you can agree with this, then you have to agree that this word is *not* used as a compliment.


I never said it was a compliment. I just didn't realize that anybody had considered it to be an insult.

I *still* think that this particular debate, about a fictional language, in a fictional universe, spoken by people who never existed, and the author himself did not bother to create a language for, is pedantic, precisely because someone is finding specific uses of words and arguing that (a) no other language has those words, (b) no other languages *could* have those uses, (c) no translation could possibly substitute because the words are plot-specific, and (d) this proves that the characters on this fictional world are speaking a language specific to our real world.

That seems, to me at least, to be finding tiny little nits and trying to use them to piece together a reality in a world where that reality doesn't fit, just for the sake of appearing smarter than everybody else in the conversation.

Doesn't that fit the description of "pedantic"?

The reality that I see is that these are choices the author made for storytelling purposes. He need to show Davos learning to read. If you have to have someone learn to read, you need a scene where they don't read, you need another scene where they read poorly, and another scene where they read better. This is the progression you must have to develop this scenario. Now, it's even better if the thing you have them read provides information to the reader, background stories, some exposition in a way without having to provide a wall of exposition without context. Even better if the thing they have to read provides insight to the character themselves.

And how do you show that middle moment? How do you show "reading poorly"? You have them stumble over hard words. You have them mispronounce something. But if you just type "this is a mispronunciation" then the reader will read the word pronounced correctly and be confused by your scene because the character is now informed they mispronounced it. So you have to spell something out, in a way that the reader can recognize that it's been mispronounced so they won't be thrown off by the scene. And the easiest way to do that is to use a word they know but that they know is spelled differently than it's pronounced so they can be "in on" the scene when your character mispronounces "ka-nigg-it" and they can leap ahead and know he meant knight but didn't read well enough to know that word yet.

And that's why that scene is there, not because George is laying clues for us that the characters are speaking English, but because we read it in English and he had to have a misspelling/mispronunciation for the scene to work. It's literally just shorthand for the reader.

And THIS post is pedantic, too. I consider it a descriptive term (similar to wordy, or gregarious, or loquacious) rather than an insulting term, and I use it on myself here.

I confess I was completely unaware that anybody would consider that an insult, and I absolutely did not *mean* it as an insult any more than I think "wall of words" is an insult. We are arguing about not just minutia, but incredibly unimportant minutia at that.

I'm certainly happy to let it go.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

astrohip said:


> Rewatched a few scenes last night, some thoughts:
> 
> * When Littlefinger told Sansa he was leaving for King's Landing, and was leaving her alone at Winterfell, neither of them expressed much dismay about Ramsay at the time. They even commented on how the dad Roose scared them more than Ramsay. And Sansa ended the scene talking about how she was going to use her feminine wiles to control Ramsay, should it come to that.
> 
> I believe neither of them thought anyone would do harm to a daughter of Ned Stark, and Littlefinger had no idea what he was leaving Sansa to face.


That's my thought as well. Petyr was asking Roose about Ramsay shortly after he and Sansa arrived, and the way he asked him made me think he didn't know much about him. I don't see why he would have needed to feign ignorance with Roose, and in fact think he was trying to learn something about him so he would know how to manipulate events to his advantage.

Ramsay was a bastard not too long ago, and House Bolton wasn't big enough for people outside of the north to care about before the war, so I can easily see how Petyr might not have known anything about Ramsay. Even Robb Stark didn't know about him.

As Roose himself said, he put too much trust in Ramsay, and Petyr put too much trust in Roose's trust in Ramsay. I don't think he would have imagined that Roose would have legitimized someone like Ramsay.

Plus, I think his original plan depended on Sansa staying in Winterfell. While it's possible he underestimated her ability to leave, I think it's more likely that he underestimated what motivation she would have for doing so.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Ereth said:


> The best English manages is 7 words with the same pronunciation.


And they don't have a Buffalo in Westeros, so that phrase doesn't work there.

Take that Westerosians! Maybe you wouldn't have so many problems if you spoke American!


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

I know, the thread is 3 years old. But I am a late-comer to the series! I've been binge-watching the last few months, and just watched this episode. Oh man. The look on Hodor's face when Meera and Bran disappeared into the snow as he held the door, knowing he saved them, was just heart-breakingly satisfying.

Which brings me to my question. When Bran wargs into Hodor, is he actually controlling Hodor's actions, or is he just giving Hodor a kick in the pants to get moving? We see Hodor in the cave, just rocking back and forth saying 'Hodor', and then his eyes turn showing Bran has warged. So at this point is Bran dragging himself through the cave, and then holding the door, using Hodor's body? Or is it that once Hodor is warged into action, everything after that is by Hodor's own doing?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Bran is in control and Hodor is "not there". Once Bran leaves Hodor's body, you can see Hodor is confused regarding how he got there and about his surroundings.

When they were chained at Craster's keep, for example, Hodor was chained to a wall and then found himself outside in the snow with some dead guy with a broken neck at his feet. For Hodor, the entire sequence while Bran controlled him didn't happen and he did not see it.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Bran is in control and Hodor is "not there". Once Bran leaves Hodor's body, you can see Hodor is confused regarding how he got there and about his surroundings.
> 
> When they were chained at Craster's keep, for example, Hodor was chained to a wall and then found himself outside in the snow with some dead guy with a broken neck at his feet. For Hodor, the entire sequence while Bran controlled him didn't happen and he did not see it.


Which makes his death all the more tragic.


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

Thanks, that's what I was afraid of. Hodor was, in the end, sacrificed by Bran. That is really, really sad!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Donbadabon said:


> Thanks, that's what I was afraid of. Hodor was, in the end, sacrificed by Bran. That is really, really sad!


Doubly sad, since it was Bran who made Hodor Hodor in the first place...as I said in the OP, Bran sure messed up Hodor's life real good, didn't he?


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## Hcour (Dec 24, 2007)

Ok, wait. Are ya'll proposing that Hodor was controlled by Bran when he was holding the door? Because I don't think so. One could argue that it was pretty much Hodor's life's purpose, put in his mind by Bran, yes, but I'm pretty sure he had control of his own faculties in the end. At that point Hodor's sacrifice was of his own choosing.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Hcour said:


> Ok, wait. Are ya'll proposing that Hodor was controlled by Bran when he was holding the door? Because I don't think so. One could argue that it was pretty much Hodor's life's purpose, put in his mind by Bran, yes, but I'm pretty sure he had control of his own faculties in the end. At that point Hodor's sacrifice was of his own choosing.


Yes, Hodor was Hodor when he was holding the door. The question wasn't about that specific moment but a general question about what Hodor feels or retains when Bran is inside him and controlling his actions.

Meera was telling Hodor to hold the door, she would not have needed to do that if Bran was controlling him. Hodor was also talking, something he does not do when Bran is in control. So there's zero doubt that Bran was not in control at that moment.


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