# CNET writer publicly ditches TiVo and "half-baked" Premiere



## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

Pretty on-target article published two days ago from one of the CNET columnists talking about saying goodbye to TiVo because TiVo has said goodbye to its customers with the crappy Premiere and lack of fixes:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-20061228-256.html?tag=blogs;Molly Rants

(The video podcast at that link starts talking about TiVo at 10:00 - worth a listen beyond what's in the print)

All I can say is, bring on more of this. Maybe if TiVo gets the public lashings they deserve they'll start putting a high priority on CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE like they used to. There's NO excuse for the sad state of the Premiere more than a YEAR after launch.


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## theidiot (Sep 4, 2009)

wow, I'm pretty concerned as a long time Tivo owner - finally purchased an HDTV and am planning on getting the Premiere so that I can record HDTV shows since my Series 2 can't handle it.

I've read mixed bags about the new box, not sure if I should bite the bullet again seeing all these issues...


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Molly Wood was a fairly adamant TiVo supporter, she even used to make a podcast just for TiVo users. It must have taken a lot to get her to ditch TiVo, though considering she switched to AT&T Uverse which TiVo doesn't support, that might have been the main reason. The N17 error she was getting was likely a problem with her home network or ISP.

She did make some good points, but personally I love my Premiere.


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## h2oskierc (Dec 16, 2010)

The link doesn't work for me. Lawyers get involved maybe?


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## belunos (Sep 19, 2002)

h2oskierc said:


> The link doesn't work for me. Lawyers get involved maybe?


How did we get to arm chair lawyering in 4 posts?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

60+ posts about it here already: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=469381


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

h2oskierc said:


> The link doesn't work for me. Lawyers get involved maybe?


Still works fine for me. Here's the text of the article:

The last straw broke last month, when, after a DSL outage, I could no longer connect to the TiVo service.

I got the dreaded N17 error message that says, "Failed while negotiating." The only support guidance TiVo offers is (I'm not joking) to unplug the TiVo and plug it back in. Nothing helped. I trolled forums, restarted my modem, changed my router DNS settings, rebooted over and over, even switched to another TiVo, and connected to a Sprint Overdrive, just to troubleshoot and get guide info. I just couldn't get it working. I tweeted TiVo for help: no response. And every time I called tech support, they told me they only had one solution for the problem: just keep restarting that TiVo.

Ep. 1465: I left TiVo because TiVo left me

So, after 10 good years together, I told TiVo goodbye. I had AT&T Uverse installed this week. I'm using the Uverse DVR and while it lacks certain TiVo amenities (like the ability to schedule a recurring manual recording, apparently), it's easy to use, the remote is nice, and actually, its tabbed menu structure makes it easier to navigate than TiVo's stacked navigation scheme.

But this breakup didn't have to happen. I'll never love a DVR like I loved my TiVo, but you can only beg someone to love you back for so long before it's time to move on. It wasn't just that TiVo couldn't fix my N17 error (and couldn't even try). It's that I think TiVo gave up years ago, and not just on me.

This week, Comcast and TiVo announced that their six-year flirtation with putting TiVo software on Comcast set-top boxes is officially over. Comcast will instead offer its XFinity on-demand library to TiVo Premiere boxes.

Now, that's great news for Premiere owners. They finally get access to Comcast's impressive VOD library--the one thing they were losing by sticking with TiVo and CableCARD instead of the stock Comcast box. Well, the VOD library and the fun of hurling the Comcast DVR remote through various windows in a frustrated rage. But if you look a little closer, it's bad news for TiVo overall.

For one thing, TiVo gets VOD, but the firehose of potential new Comcast customers squeezes back down to the same old trickle it ever was. TiVo's share of the DVR market is small and shrinking--it lost nearly half its subscribers from 2007 to 2009, and had less than 3 million subs in October 2009. By contrast, the subscription-free Roku, which offers many of the same Web video features of the TiVo with no monthly fee, has sold 1 million boxes and just expanded into Best Buy.

Then there's the question of who would buy a TiVo. As I mentioned, Roku, game consoles, and other set-top boxes are compelling offers for delivering Netflix, Pandora, and other Web content. Plus, the TiVo Premiere is, as many have pointed out, a pretty half-baked effort, and a very incremental upgrade over the TiVo HD. Still. A full year after its launch, its incomplete HD UI has yet to be upgraded, and promised firmware updates delivering hoped-for DLNA support and the enabling of the box's second processor core have yet to appear. (To be fair, it did get multi-room viewing and Pandora.)

Meanwhile, the Premiere still has no built-in wireless, only two tuners, and the category-killing QWERTY remote is still an $80 add-on. And with DVRs like the Uverse box starting to deliver a decent UI, TiVo's one advantage--one which hasn't changed significantly in these past 10 years--may be slipping away. And TiVo isn't helping its cause with an utter lack of communication (will DLNA support ever appear? Hello?) and an increasingly lackluster approach to customer relations.

As TiVo's sinking subscriber numbers show, CableCARD and a $300 standalone set-top box is a hard sell, especially when it comes saddled with an additional monthly fee. TiVo's attempts to subsidize the cost of the box take the sting out of the initial outlay, but $20 a month is a tough pill to swallow when cable costs easily creep into the hundreds of dollars. TiVo's only saving grace is the same as it ever was: to become the de facto set-top box for the cable and satellite operators. This boutique shop has run out of customers.

The Comcast deal may prove to have been a life or death moment for TiVo, but it had other chances at salvation. After all, what in the world happened with the DirecTV TiVo? These two companies announced a deal three years ago, CEO Tom Rogers looked me in the eye and promised a DirecTV TiVo by the end of 2010, and yet, the latest reports peg it to, maybe, the end of 2011. Trust me: don't count on it.

I can't imagine another company, other than maybe Apple, with enough customer goodwill to tolerate three, four, and five year delays on promised products. It's a testament to the real love people had for their TiVos--myself included--that the company has survived at all. But it's an unacceptable way to treat your customers.

And sure, maybe TiVo's patent licensing side business will give it enough of a war chest to fix the Premiere, put out an innovative new box, and get things moving again. Once again, though: I wouldn't count on it. After all, Dish's one-time $500 million payment to TiVo just means Dish gets to keep delivering Dish set-top boxes to its customers. It doesn't buy TiVo a single new subscriber, and I can't imagine what else could. It breaks my heart to say it, but TiVo, I've lost the faith. I just can't wait anymore.

.

Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-20061228-256.html#ixzz1MBX2sBYC


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> 60+ posts about it here already: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=469381


Since the majority of the reason she left is specific to the Premiere, I thought this would be a better fit for it than all of TiVo-land in the Coffee house.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

curiousgeorge said:


> Since the majority of the reason she left is specific to the Premiere, I thought this would be a better fit for it than all of TiVo-land in the Coffee house.


Where does she say what model of TiVo she even has? I imagine she mentions the Premiere because it's currently the only model available as a new purchase, and the Series 3 platform is pretty much old news.

I would think the majority of the reason for leaving TiVo is this statement: "I had AT&T Uverse installed this week." That would be a showstopper for any HD TiVo.


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

Wow... GOOD, TiVo isn't going to wake up until the mainstream tech media starts tearing them apart.

WAKE UP TiVo!


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> Where does she say what model of TiVo she even has? I imagine she mentions the Premiere because it's currently the only model available as a new purchase, and the Series 3 platform is pretty much old news.


Watch the video. She has the Premiere. She agrees that Premiere was the final straw at about 9:29. Closes the TiVo segment in the video with "...it's too little, too late for a lot of customers."


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

Unfortunately, I don't know of another NON PC based cable AND OTA DVR (That records by name and isn't basically a digital VCR).


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

kturcotte said:


> Unfortunately, I don't know of another NON PC based cable AND OTA DVR (That records by name and isn't basically a digital VCR).


That may be true but the future of television is On Demand (streaming) content. There are already numerous devices that handle this much better than TiVo. TiVo does a lot of things but it doesnt do anything exceptionally well. The cons of Tivo are outweighing the pros more and more. TiVo has been bleeding customers for a long time. They cant keep that up forever.

They may still be the best DVR on the market....but who cares if nobody wants/needs a DVR?


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> That may be true but the future of television is On Demand (streaming) content. There are already numerous devices that handle this much better than TiVo. TiVo does a lot of things but it doesnt do anything exceptionally well. The cons of Tivo are outweighing the pros more and more. TiVo has been bleeding customers for a long time. They cant keep that up forever.
> 
> They may still be the best DVR on the market....but who cares if nobody wants/needs a DVR?


I don't want to go searching for my shows though. I want them ALL delivered to me in ONE nice little group.
Even if EVERYTHING was being downloaded and coming from online for free, I'd still be willing to pay Tivo to gather it all for me.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

orangeboy said:


> I would think the majority of the reason for leaving TiVo is this statement: "I had AT&T Uverse installed this week." That would be a showstopper for any HD TiVo.


She switched to Uverse BECAUSE of Tivo abandoning her. She was pretty explicitly clear on that point.

To be honest, the trend on this forum of "Tivo apologists" blaming any and all issues on departing subs is getting old. The bottom line is - if someone as tech-savvy and someone who's had Tivo for as long as she had is leaving, just think how Joe Average from Anytown USA is doing.

Tivo has a serious problem, and they don't seem to be taking any serious steps to solve it. Even something like Hulu Plus at this point is akin to rearranging deck chairs on the Titantic. That's the most valuable takeaway from this article IMO. Issues like N17 or TA's or Premiere lockups scare away customers, even ones who have dealt with Tivo for years.

I'll use my Tivo's until the guide data shuts down or cablecards are no longer supported or I can no longer get spare parts... BUT there's a reason I never got a Premiere until I literally got deals I couldn't refuse ($250-260 for lifetimed P & PXL) There's also a reason I do not have high hopes for any Series 5 to make it to market.

As a relevant aside, here's the story about my Premiere XL - came with the plastic cover still on the front, not a scratch, all original paperwork, THX glasses, etc, etc, etc - and I *found it in a thrift store for $40.* Perfect working condition. Tivo told me somebody subbed that box, paid out the nose for it, paid out the nose for a sub, and then paid out the nose for a cancellation fee not long after. Looking at the way channels were configured, and the recorded programs left on the Tivo - some didn't even match, and some showed blank / error screens - I figured out, I'm pretty sure, that they had TA issues, and rather than try to hassle with it and solve the issues and read the forums and and and... they *donated it to a thrift store.* Didn't even try to sell it on Ebay, just chucked it. That says something pretty serious for Tivo - though I'll be happy to use the PXL until I can't anymore!


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## rahnbo (Sep 12, 2010)

Sounds like she went easy on Tivo to me. I've been working on my own home brew that will replace the next failed Tivo Premiere. The 2 I have and the remaining S2 will stay as long as they last then there will never be another Tivo in my house. To justify some of the things I've been buying and my time investment I came up a list of over 20 reasons I want to dump Tivo. Most stem from the fact that they just dumped the thing on the market and abandoned it and when you call for support they point the finger at everyone but themselves or deny a problem exists. Nothing gets fixed, upgraded, or supported.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

rahnbo said:


> Nothing gets fixed, upgraded, or supported.


It's not just the fanboys that are apologists, it's the employees also.

E.g. here is a post telling us (and me personally) how TiVo has mostly USA based engineers (not outsourced to Elbonia) and that it's a great place to work.

It appears that he's right. It probably is a great place to work, because you apparently don't ever need to accomplish anything.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

kturcotte said:


> I don't want to go searching for my shows though. I want them ALL delivered to me in ONE nice little group.
> Even if EVERYTHING was being downloaded and coming from online for free, I'd still be willing to pay Tivo to gather it all for me.


And people using DOS and WordPerfect 5.1 didn't want to change either.

But the world is changing to streaming-only. Once you try it out and adjust how you think of watching shows, you'll get into it. It's actually a lot better and more efficient.

There are lots of cheap options to try this out - Roku, Apple TV, and others. Don't do Boxee Box though, it sucks.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> And people using DOS and WordPerfect 5.1 didn't want to change either.
> 
> But the world is changing to streaming-only. Once you try it out and adjust how you think of watching shows, you'll get into it. It's actually a lot better and more efficient.
> 
> There are lots of cheap options to try this out - Roku, Apple TV, and others. Don't do Boxee Box though, it sucks.


And I still want it in 720p/1080i/19Mbps DD5.1 lol


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Frankly I find it interesting. She has problems with her DSL provider, then her TiVo has network problems and her solution is to switch pay TV providers to a provider that you can not us a HD TiVo with. 

So this must mean she was also unhappy with her pay TV provider and her DSL provider because she could have continued with both with or without a TiVo. 

I find it funny that the old DSL and pay TV providers were not mention by name. And what she effectively did was promote switching to AT&T Uverse and eliminated the road block of not being able to use a HD TiVo with AT&T Uverse by being upset that the Premiere didn't do the Internet as well has she wanted it to and that TiVo hadn't produced a new Direct TV Tivo. Interesting does her new AT&T Uverse DVR have access to Internet streaming like a Roku or even like a Premiere? Does it work with Direct TV? Is it really a better DVR than a TiVo? 

While I think TiVo has major issues I recommend people read between the lines here. 

Either she wanted to switch to AT&T Uverse and felt the need to justify not being able to use a TiVo or someone did or did not pay up. In the media world it is always about the $$s so I am guessing that is really what it is about. 

For people who are thick either TiVo wasn't paying cnet enough/any advertising $$s or AT&T was paying them more.

Thanks,


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> Frankly I find it interesting. She has problems with her DSL provider, then her TiVo has network problems and her solution is to switch pay TV providers to a provider that you can not us a HD TiVo with.
> 
> So this must mean she was also unhappy with her pay TV provider and her DSL provider because she could have continued with both with or without a TiVo.
> 
> ...


Keep spinning it, dude. You can only keep your head in the sand for so long.

I lost 20 minutes of Parks and Rec last night thanks to Tivo locking up on me with the green circle of doom. Its ridiculous how often my Premiere has to be rebooted due to lockups.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

KungFuCow said:


> Keep spinning it, dude. You can only keep your head in the sand for so long.
> 
> I lost 20 minutes of Parks and Rec last night thanks to Tivo locking up on me with the green circle of doom. Its ridiculous how often my Premiere has to be rebooted due to lockups.


Spinning what? That cnet which is owned by CBS doesn't post/print/recorded anything that isn't what their advertisers want posted/printed/recorded? Thats how the media business works those who pay control it and we don't pay the advertisers do. "Molly Rants" goes through multiple layers of review and will have nothing that offends their advertisers and is likely used for "product placement" just like everything else in the media.

There is a reason that Consumer Reports does not accept advertising.

None of the above has anything to do with how good or bad of a product a TiVo Premiere is, it is just how media works.

Her rant is suspect not because I think she is right or wrong but because she ends up promoting a product that isn't a direct replacement for TiVo but a replacement for an unnamed pay TV service she was using.

She didn't say I dumped my Tivo and called up my pay TV provider and got their DVR and boy was it better than TiVo and boy does it do all the stuff my TiVo doesn't. No she decided to "Switched" to AT&T Uverse where she couldn't use a HD Tivo if she wanted to. What did she say about the AT&T Uverse DVR? Was it's Netflix app better than TiVos did it have Hulu +, did it stream from a DLNA servier? No of course not because it doesn't do any of that. But it was ok and had a nice tab menu feature.

I am sorry you are having issues with your Premiere, but mine is a *Great DVR*. I don't have lock ups, it records everything it is supposed too, it downloads pod-casts on a daily bases, and is fast and easy to use.

So if having the best DVR I can buy and enjoying it, is having "my head in the sand" so be it.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

kturcotte said:


> Unfortunately, I don't know of another NON PC based cable AND OTA DVR (That records by name and isn't basically a digital VCR).


There is moxi


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> It probably is a great place to work, because you apparently don't ever need to accomplish anything.


+1 to that.

They succeeded in killing 3rd party hacks. That left no one else doing any other development for it either.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

Wait, so according to this logic, when she was PROMOTING TiVo as awesome in all the years it WAS awesome, it was because she or her company had some covert or overt arrangement WITH TiVo??

From what they've demonstrated in the past 18 months or so,* Premiere is the end of TiVo awesomeness*. If she were alone in that statement or feeling, *maybe* I could see where you *might* have a reason to be suspicious. But she's voicing and ACTING ON what lots and LOTS of customers are thinking right now, and she's not alone. She's just the most high-profile to say so.

Cheers to her, I say. *That next Premiere update in the next month better be AMAZING *or there'll be a LOT more of this kind of thing on the way.



atmuscarella said:


> Spinning what? That cnet which is owned by CBS doesn't post/print/recorded anything that isn't what their advertisers want posted/printed/recorded? Thats how the media business works those who pay control it and we don't pay the advertisers do. "Molly Rants" goes through multiple layers of review and will have nothing that offends their advertisers and is likely used for "product placement" just like everything else in the media.
> 
> There is a reason that Consumer Reports does not accept advertising.
> 
> ...


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

AbMagFab said:


> But the world is changing to streaming-only. Once you try it out and adjust how you think of watching shows, you'll get into it. It's actually a lot better and more efficient.


It might be 'better and more efficient' in your view, but if it means unskippable commercials and limited viewing windows I don't want it.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> kturcotte said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately, I don't know of another NON PC based cable AND OTA DVR (That records by name and isn't basically a digital VCR).
> ...


http://www.moxi.com/us/faq.html:
21. Can I record HD signals "Over The Air?"
No, Moxi is meant to work with cable access and will not be able to record digital programming over the air or through an antenna  even with the digital converter box."


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

curiousgeorge said:


> Wait, so according to this logic, when she was PROMOTING TiVo as awesome in all the years it WAS awesome, it was because she or her company had some covert or overt arrangement WITH TiVo??
> 
> From what they've demonstrated in the past 18 months or so,* Premiere is the end of TiVo awesomeness*. If she were alone in that statement or feeling, *maybe* I could see where you *might* have a reason to be suspicious. But she's voicing and ACTING ON what lots and LOTS of customers are thinking right now, and she's not alone. She's just the most high-profile to say so.
> 
> Cheers to her, I say. *That next Premiere update in the next month better be AMAZING *or there'll be a LOT more of this kind of thing on the way.


My suspicions are based on how advertising and the media work. That article would never have be allowed if TiVo was a cnet advertiser.

The fact that she didn't replace her TiVo with a DVR that addressed the claimed problems with TiVo also makes it suspect for me.

It is like if I said I don't like my Ford because it doesn't have leather seats, so I sold it and bought a Chevy. Then saying I like the Chevy it rides like the Ford maybe a little nicer than the Ford, but it doesn't have leather seats either.​
Statements like what I made above are nonsensical, which is what the action Molly took in response to being unhappy with TiVo is. People do not change Internet providers or pay TV providers because they are unhappy with TiVo - they get rid of the TiVo and replace it with something they feel better suites them.

So why did she mention switching to AT&T Uverse? And not mention the DSL provider that failed or the pay TV provider that both were also dumped?

The AT&T Uverse DVR did not get her a DVR that does what she claimed TiVo needs to do. So for me it smells like a paid product placement piece for AT&T Uverse using a negative view of TiVo to get people to read it. Or personal justification to switch to AT&T Uverse.

Again my comments on the article have has nothing to do with if the conclusions in the article about Tivo are right or wrong. I agree with most of the complaints where I differ with many people on this forum is the degree of unhappiness those issues cause me with the Premiere. For me the issues cause a minor amount of unhappiness it is very clear they cause a major amount of unhappiness for others.

Thanks,


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> http://www.moxi.com/us/faq.html:
> 21. Can I record HD signals "Over The Air?"
> No, Moxi is meant to work with cable access and will not be able to record digital programming over the air or through an antenna  even with the digital converter box."


Oh sorry, I meant Myth TV, and a host of others. PVR is free software.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

theidiot said:


> wow, I'm pretty concerned as a long time Tivo owner - finally purchased an HDTV and am planning on getting the Premiere so that I can record HDTV shows since my Series 2 can't handle it.
> 
> I've read mixed bags about the new box, not sure if I should bite the bullet again seeing all these issues...


Haven't been without two of the latest model TIVOs since 1999. Premiere units work fine, Yea, I use the old menu system. Wish the HD menus were better, but TIVO's older menus still LIGHT YEARS better than DTV or the cable system sh*t DVRs. Of course, I wish they would work faster fixing bugs, but let's not get crazy.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> It might be 'better and more efficient' in your view, but if it means unskippable commercials and limited viewing windows I don't want it.


It's just a matter of getting the model right. There ought to be a level at which I can pay for programming and receive the programming commercial free. The benefit for streaming is that there is room for massive competition and variety of options. (well, unless we allow for things like Comcast purchasing NBC, where the folks that control the distribution now own the content)

If such a system doesn't evolve, then people will simply torrent the content.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

aadam101 said:


> That may be true but the future of television is On Demand (streaming) content.


I hope not- at least not how it typically works right now. Because I don't want to be tied 100% to an Internet connection. I want instant access to the things I already said I want. I don't want crappy picture quality because too many people might be streaming at once. I want to be able to zoom forward and backward through a program without huge delays in "buffering".

Streaming is nice, but I don't (yet) want the type of streaming I have seen taking over local storage options.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

slowbiscuit said:


> It might be 'better and more efficient' in your view, but if it means unskippable commercials and limited viewing windows I don't want it.


+1


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

Videodrome said:


> Oh sorry, I meant Myth TV, and a host of others. PVR is free software.


Myth TV (and most/all open source apps) does not work with cable card, making it a useless option for most people now. Analog cable days are over. SD days are also over. If I were stuck with only OTA, I would be extremely sad. It is unfortunate too. Remember, in media giants' minds- we customers are only interested in "stealing" content, and "open source" automatically means hackers are trying to "steal" everything.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

There's nothing to "read into" with the article. Not only do her comments repeat what has been posted in these forums a hundred times, there are also many people here who have also held onto their current TV providers, even DTV customers, to hold out for something new from Tivo. Once Tivo is out of the picture for them, it doesn't matter what they do.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

crxssi said:


> Myth TV (and most/all open source apps) does not work with cable card, making it a useless option for most people now. Analog cable days are over. SD days are also over. If I were stuck with only OTA, I would be extremely sad. It is unfortunate too. Remember, in media giants' minds- we customers are only interested in "stealing" content, and "open source" automatically means hackers are trying to "steal" everything.


you need to re-read the tread, because i post both cablecard, and ota. Myth would serve ota only market. Moxi , WMC would cablecard. So what is the issue ?


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

You can look at cable/ota/sat as timed streaming events. Your DVR catches the stream and you watch at your most comfortable time. The 'first run' stream is typically available from one of these provider types and you now have it downloaded on your local device to watch at your leisure. I do this now, and I do it with internet TV such as revision 3 and others. I sit in my comfortable chair and use my remote for a few clicks and I have a beautiful HD display with my programming. Works for me. On demand streaming simply does not _currently_ have the quality I want on a 52" display - Sure Netflix is neat and dosen't look bad, but compared to OTA and Blu-ray? Naaahhh. Not yet. Maybe someday, but it's not there yet. Well maybe on small screens where quality and video and audio is not so important.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

curiousgeorge said:


> From what they've demonstrated in the past 18 months or so,* Premiere is the end of TiVo awesomeness*. If she were alone in that statement or feeling, *maybe* I could see where you *might* have a reason to be suspicious. But she's voicing and ACTING ON what lots and LOTS of customers are thinking right now, and she's not alone. She's just the most high-profile to say so.
> 
> Cheers to her, I say. *That next Premiere update in the next month better be AMAZING *or there'll be a LOT more of this kind of thing on the way.


Spot-on. Really good summary.



BigJimOutlaw said:


> There's nothing to "read into" with the article. Not only do her comments repeat what has been posted in these forums a hundred times, there are also many people here who have also held onto their current TV providers, even DTV customers, to hold out for something new from Tivo. Once Tivo is out of the picture for them, it doesn't matter what they do.


+1 - I HIGHLY doubt every single tech blogger out there who's essentially said "the Premiere has issues, is not being supported, and this is the end of the road for me" is on the payroll of some company.

As a former journalist for several organizations myself, I take significant umbrage at the insinuation that all reporting/writing is bought & paid for - I can assure you from personal experience and industry knowledge that this is 100% not the case. Sure, some blogs may be more... susceptible... than others - and if you constantly insult the biggest advertiser on your site, you might get a note from the editor eventualy - but by and large, ESPECIALLY when LOTS of them say the same thing you can rule out any "pay for coverage" scheme. Hell, that kind of thing blows up in companies' faces - look at what's going on with Facebook and their attempts to covertly pay to smear Google right now. I can understand your cynicism, but at this point it's really unwarranted and, frankly, unbelievable.

The spin from the apologists is INCREDIBLE in both threads on this article - at some point, there are facts to be faced. One of them is that there has been no Tivo update whatsoever for what, five or six months now? - and all parties, Tivo included (see their recent survey questions and some Twitter/exec statements) agree that the Premiere is simply not finished and that there are multiple massive issues to fix.

*Unfortunately, there's been little to no indication that Tivo is interested in improving - even FINISHING - their product, but rather focusing on large corporate deals and lawsuits. THAT mindset is the underlying issue for Tivo, and there is no spinning it, though I'm sure some will try.
*


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

daveak said:


> You can look at cable/ota/sat as timed streaming events. Your DVR catches the stream and you watch at your most comfortable time. The 'first run' stream is typically available from one of these provider types and you now have it downloaded on your local device to watch at your leisure. I do this now, and I do it with internet TV such as revision 3 and others. I sit in my comfortable chair and use my remote for a few clicks and I have a beautiful HD display with my programming. Works for me. On demand streaming simply does not _currently_ have the quality I want on a 52" display - Sure Netflix is neat and dosen't look bad, but compared to OTA and Blu-ray? Naaahhh. Not yet. Maybe someday, but it's not there yet. Well maybe on small screens where quality and video and audio is not so important.


I agree completely. Over the air HDTV has significantly better picture quality than internet streaming and it doesn't count against your monthly bandwidth cap. The low, low price of _free_ is pretty nice too.

If I really want the very best picture and sound quality, the Blu-ray disc is the only way to go. Sure, you have to wait a day for Netflix to send you the disc, but if something is worth more than just casual viewing, it's worth waiting for the shiny little disc.:up: $132 per year for unlimited Netflix streaming plus one Blu-ray at a time is quite a bargain.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

JimboG said:


> If I really want the very best picture and sound quality, the Blu-ray disc is the only way to go. Sure, you have to wait a day for Netflix to send you the disc...


The music world has shown us that people choose convenience over quality. When given a choice of a variety of high quality audio formats (SACD, DVD-Audio, etc), people not only chose mp3 over those high quality formats, but also chose it over CDs in general. The ability to download what you want, when you want won out over quality.

The same is going to happen to video programming. While I can tell the difference between Blu-ray and DVD if I really want to, when I'm watching a program the fact is that it really doesn't matter.



crxssi said:


> I hope not- at least not how it typically works right now. Because I don't want to be tied 100% to an Internet connection.


What's the difference being tied 100% to an Internet connection and being tied 100% to a cable connection? I'd rather the former, because I'm getting a whole lot more value for my dollar than the latter.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

KungFuCow said:


> Keep spinning it, dude. You can only keep your head in the sand for so long.
> 
> I lost 20 minutes of Parks and Rec last night thanks to Tivo locking up on me with the green circle of doom. Its ridiculous how often my Premiere has to be rebooted due to lockups.


That number is zero with my five Premieres. They don't lockup or reboot and have been just as reliable as any TiVo I've owned during the last ten years.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

smbaker said:


> The music world has shown us that people choose convenience over quality.


There's some truth to this. But you also fail to account for how poorly the record industry has handled pricing on the various formats.

As for convenience, don't forget about the 'someone else as DJ' aspect. Access to tens of thousands of tracks of media isn't quite as useful as having someone else do the programming. Services like satellite and even plain old terrestrial radio continue to function, arguably due to the DJ aspect. Machine-driven playlists only go so far.

The same notions can be applied to video distribution via cable. Yes, being able to go off on a tangent pulling up streamed content focused along a set of choices is wonderful. But where to start? Blending the ability to jump from a program recorded from cable over to streamed and back is a very nice feature of the Tivo. Even better than streamed alone as it allows selecting from upcoming cable content too.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

wkearney99 said:


> There's some truth to this. But you also fail to account for how poorly the record industry has handled pricing on the various formats.


And speaking of pricing, how much are all these VOD shows going to cost? Free? 99¢? $3.99? I would only be interested in a flat-rate monthly cost, like Netflix pricing...


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

wkearney99 said:


> As for convenience, don't forget about the 'someone else as DJ' aspect. Access to tens of thousands of tracks of media isn't quite as useful as having someone else do the programming. Services like satellite and even plain old terrestrial radio continue to function, arguably due to the DJ aspect. Machine-driven playlists only go so far.


I prefer the editorial and curatorial voice of Pandora over the local yokels who serve as radio DJs in most radio markets. Classical station KUSC in Los Angeles has witty, well-informed DJs who make me smarter about classical music. Most other DJs just like to hear the sound of their own voices.:down:


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

JimboG said:


> The low, low price of _free_ is pretty nice too.


Shhh! Don't let lrhorer hear you say that.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

smbaker said:


> The music world has shown us that people choose convenience over quality. When given a choice of a variety of high quality audio formats (SACD, DVD-Audio, etc), people not only chose mp3 over those high quality formats, but also chose it over CDs in general. The ability to download what you want, when you want won out over quality.
> 
> The same is going to happen to video programming. While I can tell the difference between Blu-ray and DVD if I really want to, when I'm watching a program the fact is that it really doesn't matter.


I disagree. 
Back then when memory was expensive, I think people chose mp3 because it was the best compromise between quality and file size. Plus I'd be willing to argue that many people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between hearing an mp3 versus a CD. 
I think video is in a different category. Visual information is more important to most people. Ask yourself, if you HAD to choose between losing your sight or losing your hearing, which would you choose?
And now that memory is relatively cheap, there's no reason _not_ to have the best quality video you can get.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

TheWGP said:


> The spin from the apologists is INCREDIBLE in both threads on this article - at some point, there are facts to be faced. One of them is that there has been no Tivo update whatsoever for what, five or six months now? - and all parties, Tivo included (see their recent survey questions and some Twitter/exec statements) agree that the Premiere is simply not finished and that there are multiple massive issues to fix.


The problem with apologists is that in the long run they hurt the company they have vowed to protect. The more you _let_ a company get away with the more they will _try_ to get away with. If you don't point out issues with a product they will never get fixed. Why would they if they have no incentive to do so?


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

smbaker said:


> The music world has shown us that people choose convenience over quality. When given a choice of a variety of high quality audio formats (SACD, DVD-Audio, etc), people not only chose mp3 over those high quality formats, but also chose it over CDs in general. The ability to download what you want, when you want won out over quality.
> 
> The same is going to happen to video programming. While I can tell the difference between Blu-ray and DVD if I really want to, when I'm watching a program the fact is that it really doesn't matter.
> .


Except that Blu-Ray is doing very well and SACD/DVD-A never did.

If you combine all the content offered by all the streaming services it's probably still <1% of the total content available. Half the content will NEVER be available due to licensing issues. Then of course there is the little issue of ISPs adding bandwidth caps at a time when more and more bandwidth will be required, the picture quality issues, the buffering/stuttering issues, etc.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

aaronwt said:


> That number is zero with my five Premieres. They don't lockup or reboot and have been just as reliable as any TiVo I've owned during the last ten years.


Why not just make this your signature and save yourself from developing carpel tunnel syndrome?


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

kturcotte said:


> Unfortunately, I don't know of another NON PC based cable AND OTA DVR (That records by name and isn't basically a digital VCR).


If one is willing to leave cable and switch to Dish Network (lots more HD than my local cable co.) they do have a NON PC DVR that records 2 sat and 2 OTA channels at the same time ALL IN HD and playback of a previous recording at the same time and NOT a "digital VCR" but uses Name Based Recording. So, there is another device out there that does what you cited (for sat not cable) And that is the problem. TiVo asleep at the wheel since 1999. TiVO isn't as advanced as it needs to be in TODAY's competitive market. Just adding the capability to record ONE MORE channel would have been a really big leap for TiVo and given something to really crow about for the Premiere.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I think she just wanted to switch providers and couldn't take her Premiere with her.

Actually it is a good reason to not have a Tivo. You can switch providers more easily. In her case, back and forth between cable, Uverse and Satellite.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Except that Blu-Ray is doing very well and SACD/DVD-A never did.


I was just reading a story somewhere that said the opposite. Might have been this one, or one like it: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/04/19/feeling-blue-blu-ray/



Twinbrook said:


> If you combine all the content offered by all the streaming services it's probably still <1% of the total content available. Half the content will NEVER be available due to licensing issues.


This is probably what the CD producers were telling themselves when Itunes went live.

The problem the ISPs are going to have with bandwidth caps is competition. They don't have as good a monopoly on the marketplace as the cablecos do. Throw a bandwidth cap on my account and I'm likely going to take my business elsewhere.

There's also numerous technological solutions to bandwidth problems with streaming that could be implemented -- broadcast/multicast, for example. It's easy to imagine a hybrid solution that downloaded popular first releases to DVRs at night during off-peak, and "unlocked" and played the downloaded content. The end-user would never know it wasn't really streaming. A smart cache implementation could do this. There's plenty of room here for innovation.

Streaming is the future. The only debate is how long it'll take to get there.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

smbaker said:


> The problem the ISPs are going to have with bandwidth caps is competition. They don't have as good a monopoly on the marketplace as the cablecos do. Throw a bandwidth cap on my account and I'm likely going to take my business elsewhere.


The problem is that in many areas the local CableCo has a monopoly on high speed broadband so there is no competition.

Netflix is currently making a big stink about ISP caps since they are hurting Netflix's business model.


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## gamo62 (Oct 12, 2002)

I've been a Tivo user since the Sony SAT-60 back in '00-'01. While there have been times where I was frustrated, anything else but Tivo is not an option. i have a PXL and have had no issues. while I do think that they should focus on the completion of the HD menu set, stability is the main focus. 

For those who have issues with their Premieres, be it with cable cards or tuning adpaters, you can't always blame Tivo. I had to get my CC swapped out twice before I got to the point where I am now.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Except that Blu-Ray is doing very well


Actually Blu-Ray is *not* doing very well. It is doing "OK", but only after several years of languish... Nowhere near as well as DVD was or still is. It is not because people don't want better video quality. It is primarily because: Blu-Ray is incompatible with much of what people already owned, the discs cost considerably more, and consumers are TIRED of paying over and over for the same content they already purchased (It doesn't help that they are also not terribly computer-friendly/compatible, new DRM, the audio didn't need improvement, and of course, the whole format wars.)


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

crxssi said:


> Actually Blu-Ray is *not* doing very well. It is doing "OK", but only after several years of languish... Nowhere near as well as DVD was or still is. It is not because people don't want better video quality. It is primarily because: Blu-Ray is incompatible with much of what people already owned, the discs cost considerably more, and consumers are TIRED of paying over and over for the same content they already purchased (It doesn't help that they are also not terribly computer-friendly/compatible, new DRM, the audio didn't need improvement, and of course, the whole format wars.)


Not to mention that the remastering of many Blu-Rays is pretty uninspiring. It's a clear money-grab in too many cases. There are a handful of amazing standouts, but lots of "meh" in Blu Ray transfers.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

curiousgeorge said:


> Not to mention that the remastering of many Blu-Rays is pretty uninspiring. It's a clear money-grab in too many cases. There are a handful of amazing standouts, but lots of "meh" in Blu Ray transfers.


Yea, but watch Pan's Labyrinth in 24fps blu-ray with 7.1 sound and you can barely stand to watch "mere" HD television anymore.

Now we have the 3D nonsense diverting resources and dragging things down. I hope it either goes away really soon or becomes Star Trek holodeck quality 3D. (And where are all the tivo 3D press releases, shouldn't they be heating up the wires with some sort of marketing junk that somehow involves both 3D and "the cloud"?)


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

smbaker said:


> Streaming is the future. The only debate is how long it'll take to get there.


Online content is the future. FYP.

Streaming alone is insufficient for quite a few situations. Better to download the content in it's entirety and play back from local media than deal with intermittent or unavailable network connectivity.

If you have kids that like watching the same programming over, and over, and over again you'll know what I mean. Why bother to stream it when I can download it to a media player (android, ipod, etc) and play it multiple times. No waste of bandwidth and it works in places where there's insufficient bandwidth. Like in a moving auto out in the boonies or out on our boat.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

steve614 said:


> I disagree.
> Back then when memory was expensive, I think people chose mp3 because it was the best compromise between quality and file size. Plus I'd be willing to argue that many people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between hearing an mp3 versus a CD.
> I think video is in a different category. Visual information is more important to most people. Ask yourself, if you HAD to choose between losing your sight or losing your hearing, which would you choose?
> And now that memory is relatively cheap, there's no reason _not_ to have the best quality video you can get.


The best compromise between quality and file size back then was WMA not MP3. In the nineties when I first tried MP3s they sounded like crap compared to most of my music which was in the ATRAC format on my minidiscs. Then I tried the WMA format and it offered the good quality and lower file size I needed. MP3s still don't come close to what a wma file sounds like unless you almost double the file size.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wkearney99 said:


> Online content is the future. FYP.
> 
> Streaming alone is insufficient for quite a few situations. Better to download the content in it's entirety and play back from local media than deal with intermittent or unavailable network connectivity.........


If you have those issues it sound like you have network issues or you need a new ISP. 
I don't have any intermittent or unavailable network connectivity from FiOS or from my local network. Uptime is much higher than 99.99%.
And even when I had Comcast, It's uptime was only slightly lower than 99.99%.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> If you have those issues it sound like you have network issues or you need a new ISP.
> I don't have any intermittent or unavailable network connectivity from FiOS or from my local network. Uptime is much higher than 99.99%.
> And even when I had Comcast, It's uptime was only slightly lower than 99.99%.


Ya lots of us need a new ISP.

I would say that Verizon FIOS & Comcast are 2 of the best ISPs in the country. Great that you have access to them many of us don't and many of us only have access to one wired "high speed" provider.

My only choice is Frontier DSL and I can assure you it doesn't work well anywhere near 99% of the time and doesn't provide enough band width to stream HD very often.

Thanks,


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Series3Sub said:


> If one is willing to leave cable and switch to Dish Network (lots more HD than my local cable co.) they do have a NON PC DVR that records 2 sat and 2 OTA channels at the same time ALL IN HD and playback of a previous recording at the same time and NOT a "digital VCR" but uses Name Based Recording. So, there is another device out there that does what you cited (for sat not cable) And that is the problem. TiVo asleep at the wheel since 1999. TiVO isn't as advanced as it needs to be in TODAY's competitive market. Just adding the capability to record ONE MORE channel would have been a really big leap for TiVo and given something to really crow about for the Premiere.


So does D*. All of their DVRs can record OTA. Most of the newer ones need the AM21 OTA adapter. D* took the ATSC tuner out of their DVRs because few people use OTA anymore. It breaks up sometimes and it can be a real PITA to adjust your antenna so that all your local stations are perfectly tuned.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> If you have those issues it sound like you have network issues or you need a new ISP.
> I don't have any intermittent or unavailable network connectivity from FiOS or from my local network. Uptime is much higher than 99.99%.
> And even when I had Comcast, It's uptime was only slightly lower than 99.99%.


But even if you have no network issues like caps or other download limits, surely it makes more sense to download once and cache locally than to keep downloading the same thing repeatedly for repeat viewings. That would be a waste of system bandwidth.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

L David Matheny said:


> But even if you have no network issues like caps or other download limits, surely it makes more sense to download once and cache locally than to keep downloading the same thing repeatedly for repeat viewings. That would be a waste of system bandwidth.


Why does that make sense? Technology is moving into a "cloud" mentality that is free of hard drives.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

aadam101 said:


> Why does that make sense? Technology is moving into a "cloud" mentality that is free of hard drives.


Except when the "cloud" blows away (e.g. Amazon, Sony).


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> Why does that make sense? Technology is moving into a "cloud" mentality that is free of hard drives.


Apparently the ISPs (Other than FIOS) didn't get that notice.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

aadam101 said:


> Why does that make sense? Technology is moving into a "cloud" mentality that is free of hard drives.


I don't subscribe to the cloud mentality. Surely personal information should be kept on a local hard drive unless some new unbreakable method of encryption has been invented. Maybe when I hear that the CIA and the NSA are storing their stuff in the cloud, I'll start using it, too. (Yes, I'm rather conservative.)


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

morac said:


> Except when the "cloud" blows away (e.g. Amazon, Sony).


I agree with you but that doesn't stop the direction that technology is moving. There will be some missteps and some lessons to learn along the way.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

L David Matheny said:


> I don't subscribe to the cloud mentality. Surely personal information should be kept on a local hard drive unless some new unbreakable method of encryption has been invented. Maybe when I hear that the CIA and the NSA are storing their stuff in the cloud, I'll start using it, too. (Yes, I'm rather conservative.)


We are not talking about personal information. We are talking about TV shows.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

aadam101 said:


> We are not talking about personal information. We are talking about TV shows.


He was probably talking about the cloud in general. Google's vision of the world would have us move all of our data out there. Personally I've already done it with gmail so I've already taken that step. I do know *several* people whose gmail account has been compromised leading to secondary compromises in other services (i.e. password reset emails intercepted in the compromised gmail account). The concern in the general case is real.



aadam101 said:


> Why does that make sense? Technology is moving into a "cloud" mentality that is free of hard drives.


Caching can be quite handy for a cloud. Take something like jungledisk, for example. All browsers cache. That local hard drive does still come in handy.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

aadam101 said:


> ...Technology is moving into a "cloud" mentality that is free of *local* hard drives.


FYP.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> If you have those issues it sound like you have network issues or you need a new ISP. I don't have any intermittent or unavailable network connectivity from FiOS or from my local network. Uptime is much higher than 99.99%. And even when I had Comcast, It's uptime was only slightly lower than 99.99%.


Did you not even read the post I made? I was speaking about consuming content in situations where streaming is either unavailable or wasteful. How well your particular wired cable setup works has NOTHING to do with how poorly streaming works in mobile or remote situations!

Being able to obtain content from online sources has tremendous value and convenience. Using it only while streamed does not offer the same benefits. Sure, in lots of situations it's great. But in many streaming is not only wasteful, but outright impossible.

So try actually READING and COMPREHENDING what people post.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

Another problem with EVERYTHING on the cloud. When my internet is down, I like to watch Tv. How do I do that with EVERYTHING being streamed ONLY?


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