# FiOS rolling out IPTV making Tivos 'not work' SOON!



## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

This is from the Verizon Fios Forums.......It looks like 3 years is about here. WHERE IS A FIX TO MAKE IT WORK ON TIVOS?

Just so you guys know, several SD channels are expected to go to an IPTV format by the end of the year. This would be seamless on Verizon boxes, but TIVO users would no longer be able to recieve these channels, at least until the "home gateway" in 2012. Another planned improvement is phasing out all qip 2xxx and 6xxx boxes to enable a switch to MPEG 4 encoding , which would enable 3 "uncompressed" HD channels per QAM easily. All of this is expected by the end of this year, along with the new 7232 DVR with external expansion support enabled and a true 16:9 Guide. Whether any of this is actually done by christmas, is anybody's guess.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Sd channels going to IPTV is fine for me since I very rarely watch an SD channel. I would be more concerned about the HD channels.

Although just switching to MPEG4 would give FiOS a large amount of available space to add more channels which would also negate the need for moving channels to IP delivery.

I would expect any channels moving to IP delivery to be the least watched channels.


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## 241705 (Mar 9, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> Sd channels going to IPTV is fine for me since I very rarely watch an SD channel.


+1


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I can see several of my friends andbfamily dropping tv when this happens. They still use sd since they either havent made the hd switch or their hd set died and they dont want to spend the money right now to replace the broken set. 

Personally when I cant use my own hardware I am dropping them for tv. It is too easy to get the content elsewhere especially since I dont watch sports.

Do you have a link to the post?


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

I am here with the others as I rarely watch SD channels.

Question 1

Does IPTV mean that if I choose to watch an SD channel that Verizon would send that channel over the internet specifically to just my box or are they still broadcasting all the channels to everyone as I assume the model is right now and I just pick the channel I want to watch?

Question 2

Would the transition to MPEG 4 have any impact on TiVos?

I kind of assumed that Verizon just sent out the same signal in its digital form as the content provider sent. Hence why NBC broadcasts suck when trying to fast forward and one hour HD shows can vary in size from 4 GB to over 7 GBs. Would this mean that Verizon would now convert everything?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

1. Yes, IPTV means that it is sent over the Internet connection only to the boxes requesting it, not "broadcast" at all on the QAM. You as user will not notice that though. The bandwith used does not count as Internet usage though, but can affect bandwidth for it.

2. For now, Seiries 3/4 TiVos will be affected, until/if they find a way to receive/decode MPEG4 cable channels. The hardware is very likely capable of decoding it, it is just a matter of software I think.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I wonder if they are moving only SD because it's a channel that has an HD version so they can continue to give the HD version to cablecard subs..

I could see ruffling a lot more regulatory feathers if they took away BOTH SD and HD channels and moved them to IPTV- effectively killing cablecard support- like every SDV did before the tuning adapter. 

Doesn't seem like now is the best time politically to be peeing on cablecard, with the FCC deciding on the final allvid rules and the like.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

I'd be a little bummed about the SD switchover since it saves me disk space if the shows isn't in high def anyway. I sometimes record both SD and HD versions if the quality level is unknown and then delete the HD version if it turns out to be a SD show.

As for the MPEG4 switchover, if there's no hardware solution to get the Series 3, Tivo HD, etc. to work, then I'd be dropping FiOS too.  I borrowed their high def PVR for about a week and it's not a great substitute for TiVo HD, IMHO.

Is this all FUD? I don't follow FiOS or cable provider forums. I have little interest in doing so.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I like Verizon's FiOS, but if they break my TiVo I'll go running back to Comcast so fast it'll leave them wondering what happened.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

cwerdna said:


> As for the MPEG4 switchover, if there's no hardware solution to get the Series 3, Tivo HD, etc. to work, then I'd be dropping FiOS too.


They already support MPEG4 -- it's used with TiVoCasts, YouTube, etc. And TiVo HDs are actually recording MPEG4 from cable in New Zealand (I think). So, pretty good odds that they'll work. Although "MPEG4" is a fairly broad concept...

For that matter, there's no reason the TiVos couldn't support IPTV (including Verizon's current VoD), but that would require cooperation from Verizon.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

What keeps you from connecting the Verizon SD Set top box to the TiVo and controlling it with the IR blaster? I kinda doubt that Verizon intends to not connect _televisions_ to its TV service, and if you can get it on a (SD) TV you can get it on a SD TiVo.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> For that matter, there's no reason the TiVos couldn't support IPTV (including Verizon's current VoD), but that would require cooperation from Verizon.


Perhaps even more difficult, it would require cooperation from TiVo. If you own a TiVo S3 or TiVo HD, Tivo's answer might very well be "buy a Premiere".

I have an even worse problem. My Verizon service will soon switch to Frontier Communications. There's no telling what will happen when those hicks take over.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

netringer said:


> What keeps you from connecting the Verizon SD Set top box to the TiVo and controlling it with the IR blaster? I kinda doubt that Verizon intends to not connect _televisions_ to its TV service, and if you can get it on a (SD) TV you can get it on a SD TiVo.


so people with HD tivo's should trade in their boxes and go get an S2 and forgo all HD programming to get a few SD channels? Or people should buy 2 tivo's (one HD and one SD) and pay another 7 bucks a month to record SD also?

people just need to give up on the SD channels. Eventually cable is going to start bailing on SD versions too. One day the broadcast channels are going to bail on their SD versions too and people with square tv's will just need to watch letterboxes HD.

the more I think about it the more it makes sense that they move SD channels with HD counterparts to IPTV. And then use IPTV as their version of SDV. As more and more people go HD, the sd versions are watched less and less and become better candidates for SDV/IPTV.


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## Electro960 (Feb 7, 2006)

philhu said:


> This is from the Verizon Fios Forums.......It looks like 3 years is about here. WHERE IS A FIX TO MAKE IT WORK ON TIVOS?
> 
> Just so you guys know, several SD channels are expected to go to an IPTV format by the end of the year. This would be seamless on Verizon boxes, but TIVO users would no longer be able to recieve these channels, at least until the "home gateway" in 2012. Another planned improvement is phasing out all qip 2xxx and 6xxx boxes to enable a switch to MPEG 4 encoding , which would enable 3 "uncompressed" HD channels per QAM easily. All of this is expected by the end of this year, along with the new 7232 DVR with external expansion support enabled and a true 16:9 Guide. Whether any of this is actually done by christmas, is anybody's guess.


Just for curiousity, where are your sources from? I've been hearing for a few years now that Verizon plans to push some linear channels to IPTV but haven't seen any official announcement as to when this is actually going to happen.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Electro960 said:


> Just for curiousity, where are your sources from? I've been hearing for a few years now that Verizon plans to push some linear channels to IPTV but haven't seen any official announcement as to when this is actually going to happen.


I just found it at http://forums.verizon.com/t5/FiOS-T...o-switch-back-to-satellite/td-p/195044/page/2.  Who knows how true this stuff is or if the poster is blowing smoke.

I also record SD versions of shows where I know it's only in SD or where I don't care about the PQ (like the news) and would rather have it take up less space.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

One of the forum posters suggest FiOS is only switching some SD channels to IPTV so it won't affect people with cable cards (including tivo). 

People who are recording SD the channel so save hard disk space may want to upgrade.


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## mixedday1 (Feb 19, 2009)

MichaelK said:


> people just need to give up on the SD channels. Eventually cable is going to start bailing on SD versions too. One day the broadcast channels are going to bail on their SD versions too and people with square tv's will just need to watch letterboxes HD.
> 
> the more I think about it the more it makes sense that they move SD channels with HD counterparts to IPTV. And then use IPTV as their version of SDV. As more and more people go HD, the sd versions are watched less and less and become better candidates for SDV/IPTV.


There are international channels sold by Verizon also that are only in SD. That'd screw the Verizon customer with a TiVo Series 3 with cable cards, with internationals, no longer having ability to receive programming.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> the more I think about it the more it makes sense that they move SD channels with HD counterparts to IPTV. And then use IPTV as their version of SDV. As more and more people go HD, the sd versions are watched less and less and become better candidates for SDV/IPTV.


DirecTV simply doesn't offer SD locals for some locations. They give you all HD equipment at SD rates. They disable HD output on the box unless you pay the HD fee of $10/month, but SD output is no additional charge. I prefer to crop instead of letterbox, but that's adjustable.

The main problem will be that some S3/Premiere owners may have to upgrade to a package that includes HD, even if they have all SD TVs, to get channels they like. But most S3 owners would have HDTVs already, or else why buy an S3 in the first place? S2 owners would be unaffected, as they already have a Verizon box.

So, aside from using more disk space, I don't see it as a big deal.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> so people with HD tivo's should trade in their boxes and go get an S2 and forgo all HD programming to get a few SD channels? Or people should buy 2 tivo's (one HD and one SD) and pay another 7 bucks a month to record SD also?
> 
> people just need to give up on the SD channels. Eventually cable is going to start bailing on SD versions too. One day the broadcast channels are going to bail on their SD versions too and people with square tv's will just need to watch letterboxes HD.
> 
> the more I think about it the more it makes sense that they move SD channels with HD counterparts to IPTV. And then use IPTV as their version of SDV. As more and more people go HD, the sd versions are watched less and less and become better candidates for SDV/IPTV.


Am I wrong or did I read the original complaint being that the SD channels are going to disappear off the clear cable?

I agree that 10 years from now channels with only SD content will be like a channel today only being in black and white...but even then there will be 20% of television stubbornly being analog SD only. 

For me, I'm going to put my SD S2 on a SD UVerse STB to add the content to the TiVo MRV mix. That will hold me for a few years.


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## pL86 (Oct 11, 2009)

Err, why are we wringing our hands over this when the post on Verizon's forums that's the source of this "scoop" isn't written by a Verizon employee but a forum member over there with 14 total posts who doesn't offer any evidence or sourcing for the claim?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

BobCamp1 said:


> The main problem will be that some S3/Premiere owners may have to upgrade to a package that includes HD


Verizon doesn't break up their packages that way -- all packages include HD.



netringer said:


> Am I wrong or did I read the original complaint being that the SD channels are going to disappear off the clear cable?


A small number of SD channels, in fact. But it's got nothing to do with whether or not they're in the clear, and there's no indication that it would be limited to channels with HD equivalents.

This is specifically _not_ about analog -> digital. Verizon dropped all the analogs years ago.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

mixedday1 said:


> There are international channels sold by Verizon also that are only in SD. That'd screw the Verizon customer with a TiVo Series 3 with cable cards, with internationals, no longer having ability to receive programming.


that is a problem them....


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Verizon doesn't break up their packages that way -- all packages include HD.


With the old plans, Verizon has different plans for different locations. In my location, the cheapest plan did NOT include HD. I specifically asked this question several times, and got the same answer each time.

It does look like Verizon recently changed their plans AGAIN, and in my location they now offer HD in all the plans as you said. But older customers still might have to switch plans. I don't see Verizon putting up a big fight over it, though. Their tech. support just needs to be aware.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

pL86 said:


> Err, why are we wringing our hands over this when the post on Verizon's forums that's the source of this "scoop" isn't written by a Verizon employee but a forum member over there with 14 total posts who doesn't offer any evidence or sourcing for the claim?


That's I'm wondering... maybe that's why the OP didn't include a link to the post? I had to dig around for it myself.

OP: Please explain why a 14 (at the time I linked to it) post user's claims have any credibility or provide citations to a more credible source of these claims.


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

wmcbrine said:


> Verizon doesn't break up their packages that way -- all packages include HD.


Not totally true, there still is the lifeline version that doesn't include any HD, just local SD stations and I believe the local community access stations. But in reality, you're right as the amount of people who subscribe to that service has to be minimal.


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## kettledrum (Nov 17, 2003)

AT&T's U-Verse has been around for years and is 100% IPTV and has always been incompatible with Series 3, HD, and Premiere units. 

When I asked over on the uverseusers.com forums years ago as to how they don't have to be cablecard compliant the only answer I was given was something along the lines of "they're not a cable company". 

I'm still stuck in the 20th century and don't have an HDTV and am still using my Series 2 with the U-Verse box just like one would with most other cable boxes. But it's definitely frustrating because at some point I will upgrade and want to use a TiVo, but I won't be able to unless I go OTA or switch to (gasp!) Comcast.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

rifleman69 said:


> Not totally true, there still is the lifeline version that doesn't include any HD, just local SD stations and I believe the local community access stations.


If it includes local stations, it also includes the HD versions of those stations. I don't think there has ever been a package that didn't. They're sent unencrypted, so it's a little hard to leave them out.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

There is a new brief post about it on dslreports.com.

Verizon Working Hard On FiOS IPTV?


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## aktalas (Aug 3, 2010)

Like someone said above, tivo has the hardware capability on current boxes with ethernet, at minimum for premiere, to receive iptv broadcasts. Proper interpretation of the antimonopoly law requiring tsps to support competitor broadcast boxes should force their cooperation with tivo.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

But the question is does TiVo have enough customers using FiOS to justify the cost of developing a solution to this? I would bet the answer is no. I think at this point TiVo is going to just wait to see what comes out of the whole gateway thing before they start implementing proprietary IP protocols.

I really hope this whole gateway thing happens. If they can really get it working like they outlined then this would be the end all be all for TiVo. If all the tuning technology was moved into a box provided by the Cale/DSS provider then TiVo could design one box that would work with any system and they'd not longer have to deal with all the crap surrounding CableCARDs, or tuning adapters, or IPTV, etc... Unfortunately I'm sure that at the very least the cable companies will delay this law as long as possible and it will be 5+ years before anything even happens.

Dan


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

If tivo can get streaming from places like Netflix shouldnt there be a way to receive these channels that are being moved into the internet?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

They aren't moving to the Internet, just IPTV, which is layer 2 IP, the Internet layer 3.

As has been said, the Series 4 hardware and to a certain degree the software, at least is probably capable if IPTV from Verizon or Uverse.
TiVo just needs agreements with the IP holders of the tech, and the providers, or and obligation from the FCC to allow TiVo to directly access provider IPTV directly.


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## aktalas (Aug 3, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> But the question is does TiVo have enough customers using FiOS to justify the cost of developing a solution to this?


And potential customers, who may avoid getting TiVo if news of vz's iptv channel transfer came under a wider light. i actually think they do, if vz actually gets them to the doorstep. Vz will probably struggle as much as possible to avoid doing this, or not do it properly (a la the ongoing SDV tuning fiasco). I'm thinking TiVo already has working IPTV models which they would tweak according to vz's specifications. If anyone has the capability, it's probably TiVo. Hopefully the law mandating IPTV return path for companies using SDV passes also.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

I asked the fiostv twitter guy about iptv and Tivos on the off-chance he'd surprise me with information. His answer:

FiOSTV: will require new software from tivo and will still use cablecards, but will require data connection from Tivo to the home net

*IF* this comes to fruition, Fios/Tivo are my heroes. But just in case, I'm assembling my army of killer gerbils as we speak.


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## jeepguy_1980 (Mar 2, 2008)

Is IPTV different than simulcrypt? Engadget says TiVos are ok.


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## csm10495 (Nov 15, 2008)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> FiOSTV: will require new software from tivo and will still use cablecards


anyone think we will actually get this update before they implement it? (knowing the slowness of TiVo updates)


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

jeepguy_1980 said:


> Is IPTV different than simulcrypt? Engadget says TiVos are ok.


Nah, no relation. Simulcrypt will just let them use both Motorola and Cisco cable boxes on the same system. (Normally it's one or the other, not both.)


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

csm10495 said:


> anyone think we will actually get this update before they implement it? (knowing the slowness of TiVo updates)


I wonder the same thing.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

csm10495 said:


> anyone think we will actually get this update before they implement it? (knowing the slowness of TiVo updates)


The article says that they already have the updates.


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## csm10495 (Nov 15, 2008)

BobCamp1 said:


> The article says that they already have the updates.


The article refers to Simulcrypt which is different than IPTV, meaning i think TiVo's need a different update


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## emkorial (Jan 7, 2009)

If you have a TivoHD and a cable card, will it matter?


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## brad162 (Aug 26, 2010)

it's really not that big of a deal. Cox just recently did this in the Phoenix market, and all they did was give me a cisco adapter that i plugged into the USB port and ran the cable line through it.

While the analog channels are still there, everything is simulcast now and ran through the IPTV setup, i can imagine they're going to be taking more and more analog channels away (versus and a few others are Digital only now)

With the adapter, it works just as it did before, just no analog channels, everything's in Digital. Also noticed that now my TiVo just records the Digital stream directly into the DVR, so no re-compression, and the recordings are a lot better taking up less space.


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## drevilkep (Aug 4, 2010)

brad162 said:


> it's really not that big of a deal. Cox just recently did this in the Phoenix market, and all they did was give me a cisco adapter that i plugged into the USB port and ran the cable line through it.
> 
> While the analog channels are still there, everything is simulcast now and ran through the IPTV setup, i can imagine they're going to be taking more and more analog channels away (versus and a few others are Digital only now)
> 
> With the adapter, it works just as it did before, just no analog channels, everything's in Digital. Also noticed that now my TiVo just records the Digital stream directly into the DVR, so no re-compression, and the recordings are a lot better taking up less space.


You're talking about a Tuning Adapter, which is very different from what FiOS is doing with Simulcrypt. A tuning adapter allows your TiVo to tune switched digital video (SDV) channels. The encryption hasn't changed. Simulcrypt is being rolled out in FiOS markets to allow for simultaneous support of Cisco and Motorola equipment. This will have NO impact to TiVo users, as TiVo has already pushed out the update to support it. Users of older CableCARD gear that is no longer supported or can't be updated (the ATI HDTV tuner is one example) will be unable to watch any CableCARD channels when their area is switched over.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

classicsat said:


> They aren't moving to the Internet, just IPTV, which is layer 2 IP, the Internet layer 3.


There is no such thing as "layer 2 IP". The IP layer is layer 3. Although one could certainly write layer 2 transfer protocols, it would be an absurd thing to do, but no matter what, any such protocol would not be IP. In fact, the prototols used to IPTV are layer 4 and 5 protocols.



classicsat said:


> As has been said, the Series 4 hardware and to a certain degree the software, at least is probably capable if IPTV from Verizon or Uverse.


The Series III hardware is capable of it.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

classicsat said:


> 1. Yes, IPTV means that it is sent over the Internet connection only to the boxes requesting it, not "broadcast" at all on the QAM. You as user will not notice that though. The bandwith used does not count as Internet usage though, but can affect bandwidth for it.


The protocols can employ multicast packets, in which case it is broadcast potentially to a large number of users. Every subnet has a broadcast IP address. Usually it is assigned to an all ones address. For example, if your home LAN is 192,168.0/24, then the broadcast address would usually be 192.168.0.255.


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