# Blue spinning circle when adding season pass?



## globalgreg

Trying to add a season pass and I get the blue spinning circle for about a minute and then the season pass recording options go away with no error or confirmation that the season pass went through. The season pass doesn't appear on the season pass manager. 

I've rebooted my Roamio Pro, Mini, and MoCA adapter. Any idea why this is happening? I've been able to add season passes in the past, I have 27 right now. I'm on version 20.4.5.


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## fred2

I'll ask, did you try adding a different program's season pass or only have trouble with one show?


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## globalgreg

Tried two different shows


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## lgnad

I had that a few days ago. After a few- maybe 10 minutes, it went away. Sorry, I know that doesnt help you other than hopefully it will clear up for you soon


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## rsnaider

I am seeing the same thing with the latest software. In addition my Roamio's become sluggish after a few days and need a reboot, not a very good roll-out for me as my Premieres seem fine so far.


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## globalgreg

Not good, I'll check tonight to see if it's still doing it.


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## Diana Collins

Usually the spinning blue circle means that the TiVo is having trouble communicating with the TiVo servers (the TiVos interact with the servers frequently for additional program details, and whenever a Season pass is created or modified).

I added two season passes to our Roamio (one last night and one this morning) running 20.4.5 and saw no delay or spinning circle. It may have been a transient problem with the servers, the route between your TiVo and the server, or your local internet connection.


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## NorthAlabama

beginning with 20.4.5, my pxl started showing blue circles, some for a short time with positive results, others for long periods with eventual failure - this is bs, and new to my tivo with this update. 

please report this to tivo so they'll investigate.


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## globalgreg

Same crap tonight. Can't add a season pass for Storage Wars. Just get a spinning blue circle for a minute and then goes back to the season pass options without adding the season pass. I guess I'll email support. Is their support generally good?


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## NorthAlabama

happening again for me tonight, cannot add any season pass - blue circle, long wait, failure without a fault message. rebooted, but it didn't help. 

isn't this considered basic dvr functionality? scheduling individual recordings for a series, and remembering to follow up in 12 days, is getting old. i reported.


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## mattack

I see this kind of thing when I do something that makes it "really want to finish"..

i.e. if you do basic SP reordering, it tells you things won't be up to date for a few minutes.. but if you THEN try to delete a SP or even enter a SP (IIRC), you THEN get the spinning gear and have to wait FOREVER for it to finish.... since it seems you're waiting for it to completely bring its concept of the world back to reality..


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## NorthAlabama

mattack said:


> I see this kind of thing when I do something that makes it "really want to finish"..
> 
> i.e. if you do basic SP reordering, it tells you things won't be up to date for a few minutes.. but if you THEN try to delete a SP or even enter a SP (IIRC), you THEN get the spinning gear and have to wait FOREVER for it to finish.... since it seems you're waiting for it to completely bring its concept of the world back to reality..


you're right, the sp mgr is taking forever to update, and this delays any new scheduling until it's finished updating. mine is now taking over 20 minutes, when it used to be 1-2 minutes before the latest update.

but the blue circles are still rampant since the latest update, sometimes taking 1-2 minutes without any sp mgr changes.


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## NorthAlabama

update: it appears i've been able to correct the blue circles and inability to schedule a sp:

settings & messages > help > restart or reset > clear thumb ratings & suggestions
settings & messages > help > restart or reset > clear program info & to do list​
i'm thinking the issues were a result of corrupted guide data, time will tell.


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## shoek

Had the same issue Saturday with one of my Roamio Pro's. In addition to it not adding the SP on the Roamio itself, it would not add from the connected Minis either. My other Roamio Pro worked fine and was snappy adding the SP. I was able to get an SP added to the Roamio Pro that was acting up by scheduling it on the web and forcing a connection, but that did not fix anything for adding SP's locally.

Finally I did the "clear program info & todos" and this seems to have cleared it up.

It does feel like a problem with the 20..4.5 version


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## globalgreg

NorthAlabama said:


> update: it appears i've been able to correct the blue circles and inability to schedule a sp:
> 
> settings & messages > help > restart or reset > clear thumb ratings & suggestions
> settings & messages > help > restart or reset > clear program info & to do list​
> i'm thinking the issues were a result of corrupted guide data, time will tell.


I assume the Program Info and the To Do List will rebuild itself so you don't really lose any data?

I've been emailing tech support about this problem and they are a complete joke.

Adding some season passes work for me and some don't. When it doesn't work it doesn't work from my Mini or Roamio. I have to add the SP from tivo.com and then it works.


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## rsnaider

It will rebuilt itself but can take an hour or two to complete as it reboots the box.

While this is going on nothing will record so plan accordingly. In addition once the box is up you need to force a connection so it can pull down all the data again and process which can take another 20 to 30 minutes to process before any recordings can occur.


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## NorthAlabama

globalgreg said:


> I assume the Program Info and the To Do List will rebuild itself so you don't really lose any data?




rsnaider said:


> It will rebuilt itself but can take an hour or two to complete as it reboots the box.


the box will prompt you to make a connection following 'clear program info & to do list' after reboot has finished, select yes.

this also seems to have resolved my issues with sp mgr update times, everything appears to be back to normal (for now).


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## globalgreg

Took care of my problem too, thanks for posting the solution.


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## rsnaider

I kicked off this solution this morning but in the past a reboot would fix it, so I hope this solution lasts more then just a few days.


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## NorthAlabama

globalgreg said:


> Took care of my problem too, thanks for posting the solution.





rsnaider said:


> I kicked off this solution this morning but in the past a reboot would fix it, so I hope this solution lasts more then just a few days.


:up:


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## nooneuknow

NorthAlabama said:


> the box will prompt you to make a connection following 'clear program info & to do list' after reboot has finished, select yes.
> 
> this also seems to have resolved my issues with sp mgr update times, everything appears to be back to normal (for now).


This is a very useful option. I used it to try to clear the issue with spurious non existent channels showing up in explore and upcoming episodes.

It cleared that up for a day, then TiVo's servers forced it back to being messed-up again. But, I also use it when I see blue circles and behavior like this, for more than 24 hours.

If you have a problem that the fast and non-disruptive usual things you try don't work for it, this is a great function for purging bad guide data, rather than waiting for it to self-purge, and other "WTF now?" issues.

Just keep in mind it will clear and NOT repopulate TDL entries not of the SP/ARWL type. If you have manually set recordings (1 check mark in TDL, rather than two), you will want to make sure to manually reschedule those.

I would never try using this without at least four hours of time with nothing in the TDL upcoming to record (that I care enough about). There will be no guide data until the first pass of indexing after the next service connection finishes, plus the SPM must then repopulate the TDL, and all that can take as long as the CPI&TDL process does (especially if you have 100+ SPs, and they have a lot of filtering to do).

I still think Roamios are far too dependant on the live TiVo Service connection, while doing tasks that are in the realm of Core DVR functions. When they gifted us with the greater forward scheduling feature, they likely introduced a new dependency, making this issue worse.


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## rsnaider

And after attempting to fix my issue like others we have a new release - 20.4.5c

Hopefully this fixes a few of the issues we have been seeing.


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## NorthAlabama

nooneuknow said:


> Just keep in mind it will clear and NOT repopulate TDL entries not of the SP/ARWL type. If you have manually set recordings (1 check mark in TDL, rather than two), you will want to make sure to manually reschedule those.


i didn't write down my one-time tdl recordings, but, believe it or not, at least some, if not all, were recovered once the process was completed.

maybe this is new with recent software updates?


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## nooneuknow

NorthAlabama said:


> i didn't write down my one-time tdl recordings, but, believe it or not, at least some, if not all, were recovered once the process was completed.
> 
> maybe this is new with recent software updates?


I think it could be, as I had some movies record after I did it, and those were definitely manual entries, added long before I did the CPI&TDL.

I just didn't want to say anything, until somebody else reported seeing the same. I'd still keep tabs, if anything important is manually scheduled. I found if I padded a single episode of a SP, that it became listed as a manual recording in the TDL, which was why I suggested actually looking at the TDL before continuing on.

Older TiVos used to repopulate SPs, if you installed a freshly imaged hard drive (with the current software version already on it), pulling them down from the mothership. But, for some reason, that stopped happening, a long time back. Perhaps it's back again. But, counting on the TiVo mothership has not always been the best approach to many things, like counting on that old behavior, back then, or trusting your SPs to the online Season Pass Mangler, rather than using KMTTG.


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## NorthAlabama

nooneuknow said:


> I think it could be, as I had some movies record after I did it, and those were definitely manual entries, added long before I did the CPI&TDL.


the reason i know it happened for me, since i was unable to schedule season passes, i had manually set several shows to record, and they were restored, along with a few movies. nice recovery!


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## nooneuknow

NorthAlabama said:


> the reason i know it happened for me, since i was unable to schedule season passes, i had manually set several shows to record, and they were restored, along with a few movies. nice recovery!


Have you checked to see how long it takes for a manual recording to show up on tivo.com? Perhaps verifying your TDL there matches (is up to date with) your local one, is all you need before going forward...

The extended pre-scheduling feature might be the most likely thing responsible for this (very welcome) behavior.


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## NorthAlabama

nooneuknow said:


> Have you checked to see how long it takes for a manual recording to show up on tivo.com? Perhaps verifying your TDL there matches (is up to date with) your local one, is all you need before going forward...
> 
> The extended pre-scheduling feature might be the most likely thing responsible for this (very welcome) behavior.


if i remember my next opportunity, i'll check and respond.

now, i'm stuck in a downloading loop, error n11, network & tivo both rebooted, still stuck.

of course, discovery bar, apps, and streaming all work fine.


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## nooneuknow

NorthAlabama said:


> if i remember my next opportunity, i'll check and respond.
> 
> now, i'm stuck in a downloading loop, error n11, network & tivo both rebooted, still stuck.
> 
> of course, discovery bar, apps, and streaming all work fine.


I'm getting spinning blue circles on anything that has a long list I move down too fast, and something like a "C501 error", with a phone number to call if I see it again...

The borked-up phantom channel numbers are still there, and I'm beginning to get very angry, that I can't navigate faster than the TiVo can populate, or error-out!

In other observations, I had an absence of ads for the last two days, and now they are everywhere. All this crap always seems to happen when TiVo does something with the ads...  :down:


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## NorthAlabama

nooneuknow said:


> I'm getting spinning blue circles on anything that has a long list I move down too fast, and something like a "C501 error", with a phone number to call if I see it again...All this crap always seems to happen when TiVo does something with the ads...


i figured i was getting the new update and the server was busy, so i checked tivo status, it say everything's up.

i hope they get this mess cleared up soon.


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## nooneuknow

NorthAlabama said:


> i figured i was getting the new update and the server was busy, so i checked tivo status, it say everything's up.
> 
> i hope they get this mess cleared up soon.


Yeah, I was "blessed" without actually having the problem in this thread before, then they roll an update, and now I do. Not even going to bother with another CPI&TDL... If they are having mind/middlemind/TiVo Service server issues (also lately associated with ads, and reboot loops), I don't want to tempt fate and have the process complete, and not be able to get it back...

Good luck over there. Keep us all posted, please.

Maybe a link in the software version thread (most recent one), to this thread is in order...


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## NorthAlabama

next connection, i received the 20.4.5c update, and the download took over 30 minutes. previous updates took only 1-2 minutes to download, don't know why it's a long download. release notes have been posted for 20.4.5c, no fixes indicated for our issues.

installed quickly enough, but i noticed a 24hour "donut hole" in my guide data 11 days out, so i went ahead and ctr&s, cpi&tdl, and re-ran guided setup using a neighboring zip code...2 hours and done.

no blue circles, sp mgr updating quickly, no lost one-time recordings, and full guide data restored. now the question, for how long...


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## nooneuknow

NorthAlabama said:


> next connection, i received the 20.4.5c update, and the download took over 30 minutes. previous updates took only 1-2 minutes to download, don't know why it's a long download. release notes have been posted for 20.4.5c, no fixes indicated for our issues.
> 
> installed quickly enough, but i noticed a 24hour "donut hole" in my guide data 11 days out, so i went ahead and ctr&s, cpi&tdl, and re-ran guided setup using a neighboring zip code...2 hours and done.
> 
> no blue circles, sp mgr updating quickly, no lost one-time recordings, and full guide data restored. now the question, for how long...


Odd... My downloads of the update were typical (I manually made the connections that caught the update). But, the updates (from reboot to the intro video) took almost an hour to complete, and everything that pulls from the TiVo Service realtime backend servers, like "view upcoming episodes" gave me the blue circle, and slowness. If I jumped faster than the list would would fill, it timed-out with a C501 error, as described in a prior post.

My opting to just leave it alone seems to have worked out. But, I'm seeing reports of blue circles, and TiVo Service related error codes, popping up in threads all over the place, in many different ways.

As past updates have proven, things can always be worse. We aren't stuck in a reboot loop, or getting rolled-back, for now (or yet)...

I don't care what staus.tivo.com says. Things have not been right with TiVo Service, which their status check must not be able to see, IMO.


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## cchenning

Just last week I created a Season Pass for "ABC 7 News at 5AM", after the update, it no longer worked. The first thing I tried to do was to delete it and recreate it, there was one problem with this plan, once it was deleted I COULD NOT RECREATE IT. I am able to create a SP for "ABC7 News at 6:30 AM", but not the original selection.

When I attempt to create the SP, I get the "*C*ircle *O*f *W*ait" and no confirmation window saying the SP was created.

Using my Tivo HD, I could create both SPs, no problem.

I called Tech Support and spoke to a very saavy support person where we retraced my troubleshooting steps after the obligatory power off/restart. He took a long time working with me and seemed honestly concerned about the issue. Before officially reporting the issue, he had me try creating the SP using my PC, but he said it could take up to 30 minutes for it to appear on the SP Manager. We agreed that I would try it there, and again using my tablet with the Tivo app, then report back my success/failure.

Both methods worked, but I still cannot create the same SP on the Roamio Pro. When I called back, I spoke with a different support person who, after reviewing my case basically said "see you later".

Now today, trying to create other SPs, I get a COW then no SPs!

I'm sure the question has been asked over and over again, does anybody test things before they are pushed into the mainstream? (I have it on good authority, the update would do nothing to cause this issue  )

We have access to Amazon Prime and VuDu, that's really great, trading core functionality for new features! So just be happy you have the new features and your PC/tablet to create SPs.


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## globalgreg

Did you try the fix that was mentioned in this thread?


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## cchenning

Why do I have to do anything?

Why doesn't TIVO recommend the fix you are recommending? (Better yet push it out to everyone)

Why have someone answering the phone (who really does not care about the problem) saying just use the workaround? He could of said, "Thanks for your input, I'll pass this information along to the appropriate group".


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## globalgreg

cchenning said:


> Why do I have to do anything?
> 
> Why doesn't TIVO recommend the fix you are recommending? (Better yet push it out to everyone)
> 
> Why have someone answering the phone (who really does not care about the problem) saying just use the workaround? He could of said, "Thanks for your input, I'll pass this information along to the appropriate group".


Easy tiger. Just making sure you were taken care of like I was. I'm not surprised you didn't get any satisfaction from their tech support. I didn't either but life is too short to worry about things like this. Do the fix and move on and enjoy your TiVo.


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## cchenning

globalgreg said:


> Easy tiger. Just making sure you were taken care of like I was. I'm not surprised you didn't get any satisfaction from their tech support. I didn't either but life is too short to worry about things like this. Do the fix and move on and enjoy your TiVo.


Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was blowing a gaskit  .

I followed the recommendations and I am good to go.


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## nooneuknow

cchenning said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was blowing a gaskit  .
> 
> I followed the recommendations and I am good to go.


I kept thinking I was "good to go" as well, after doing the things that are being called fixes. The problems just keep coming back.

I know I said I just waited it out, since I had done all the steps to fix the blue circles of waiting, only to get updated to the letter revision, afterwards, with the problems returning full force.

Since that post, the issues came back, and I've done the steps three times, getting a temporary reprieve, only to get back to where I was before.

As I said earlier in the thread, I feel everybody needs to spend less time doing these user-side attempts at correcting the problem, and more time hounding TiVo to fix the source of the problem (TiVo's backend servers).

I'm not saying "don't try it". I'm merely suggesting not to keep repeating workarounds, for something caused externally (IMO).

It would likely be best for all afflicted to *politely* report the issues to TiVoMargret. She's not a CSR, and tends to get things fixed/done, if she is made aware of them.


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## Keen

I'm hoping they fix this before the mid-season starts up. Season Pass management is pretty infrequent until we get to the start of a bunch of shows.


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## Steverd

I have the spinning circle also in the last few days on my Roamio Pro. It's on recording and Season passes. I also think it's since the 20.4.5c update. This Roamio pro is only 2-3 weeks old and came with v20.3.##. I'll try the reset post above and report back.


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## astrohip

Steverd said:


> I have the spinning circle also in the last few days on my Roamio Pro. It's on recording and Season passes. I also think it's since the 20.4.5c update. This Roamio pro is only 2-3 weeks old and came with v20.3.##. I'll try the reset post above and report back.


Had my Roamio over a year. Rarely ever saw a blue spinning circle, until this update. Now when I make changes, add SPs, do anything other than just watch a recording, I would say I get the BSC about 1/3 the time.

Something definitely going on.


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## lisaadler

Thanks


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## kjstorch

I am also having the blue spinning circle issue on my Roamio. I can't create new or even edit existing SPs when using the Roamio itself. However, I can do both of these tasks fine when using the TiVo app on my tablet. I'll have to try clearing the TDL data to see if that fixes it.


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## DeltaOne

My Mini spontaneously rebooted three times this morning, all within 30 minutes or so. I'd be changing channels and it would reboot. 

When the Mini came back up it said there was no connection to the Internet. I didn't have time to trouble-shoot that specific ethernet drop, but the rest of our devices all had an internet connection. 

I'm suspecting a problem at TiVo HQ...and will monitor comments here during the day. Then do some trouble-shooting when I get home this evening.


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## DeltaOne

DeltaOne said:


> I'm suspecting a problem at TiVo HQ...and will monitor comments here during the day. Then do some trouble-shooting when I get home this evening.


Got home to discover my Roamio Plus wouldn't go to TiVo Central. Would play live TV, but that's it. Had to pull the plug to reboot it.

When it came up all was well, with the Roamio and both Minis. So the Roamio was "stuck" causing the Mini to spontaneously reboot.


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## KenWms

Same problem here with the spinning blue circle, unable to create season passes. Made several calls to Tivo support, all useless over the past month.

Finally tried deleting ALL season passes thinking one was bad, and found I still couldn't create a new one. Luckily, clearing my to-dos and guide data seems to have fixed it, and I'm able to create season passes again. For now. 

Tivo: Roamio Pro, Series 5, Lifetime, 3TB
SW Version: 20.4.5c-USA-6-840


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## globalgreg

KenWms said:


> Same problem here with the spinning blue circle, unable to create season passes. Made several calls to Tivo support, all useless over the past month.
> 
> Finally tried deleting ALL season passes thinking one was bad, and found I still couldn't create a new one. Luckily, clearing my to-dos and guide data seems to have fixed it, and I'm able to create season passes again. For now.
> 
> Tivo: Roamio Pro, Series 5, Lifetime, 3TB
> SW Version: 20.4.5c-USA-6-840


TiVo support reps are special


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## RoyK

Getting the spinning circle sometimes when starting to play a recording. Romeo has only been installed for a few days. It's quite annoying.


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## NorthAlabama

RoyK said:


> Getting the spinning circle sometimes when starting to play a recording. Romeo has only been installed for a few days. It's quite annoying.


your issue is different than the spinning blue circle that prevents the scheduling of a sp, and could be network (or tivo server) related.


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## RoyK

NorthAlabama said:


> your issue is different than the spinning blue circle that prevents the scheduling of a sp, and could be network (or tivo server) related.


Different - agreed. But perhaps related.


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## WorldBandRadio

RoyK said:


> Different - agreed. But perhaps related.


I'm also seeing (at times, not all the time) the blue spinning circle ("BSC") when I try to play a recording. I'm chalking that up to the Roamio being unable to communicate with the mothership (a.k.a., the TiVo cloud). However, I do not know that for sure.

I do know that my Roamio sends a "heartbeat" to TiVo servers once every 10 seconds. I wonder what happens to TiVo functionality when that heartbeat fails? Could that failure of heartbeats cause the BSC?

And, getting back to the topic of this thread, I have started seeing the BSC again when I try to schedule a season pass.

I've had the problem previously. I cleared the Thumb Ratings & Suggestions and the Program Information & To Do List, put a chicken in a bag and twirled it around over my head. After that exercise, scheduling a season pass worked for a while (couple three weeks?), but the BSC has started to return today.

=== sigh ===


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## barryk

Started seeing the Season Pass issue a few days ago. Tried the fix mentioned in the thread yesterday, and it worked for a couple of hours but the issue came right back today. I just chatted with Tivo support, and they say it's a known issue and they're working on a fix. Their suggested workaround is to use Wishlist or individual recordings. Not much of a workaround, but at least they admit there's a problem. 

I would think that the more of us complain about it, the quicker it will get fixed, so I would recommend that anyone who hasn't already done so contact support to report it.


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## lpwcomp

barryk said:


> Started seeing the Season Pass issue a few days ago. Tried the fix mentioned in the thread yesterday, and it worked for a couple of hours but the issue came right back today. I just chatted with Tivo support, and they say it's a known issue and they're working on a fix. Their suggested workaround is to use Wishlist or individual recordings. Not much of a workaround, but at least they admit there's a problem.
> 
> I would think that the more of us complain about it, the quicker it will get fixed, so I would recommend that anyone who hasn't already done so contact support to report it.


I was periodically seeing this too and did the CPI&TDL. Will report it to TiVo if it happens again. Their suggested work around is unacceptable, especially since I couldn't create individual recordings either.


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## WhoAmI

My Roamio Pro is doing this -- first noticed yesterday, still a problem today. First started seeing spinning circles for manual recordings a few weeks ago, figured it was related to the disk filling up (lots of items in to-do and in now playing). First failure to make season pass was yesterday, happened again today. Discovered work-around for that when iOS app was able to schedule the season pass.

It feels like the Roamio perhaps times out before it finishes scheduling the recording (if each new episode it picks up from the pass takes several seconds like manual ones do now, then it might add up to a lot of time). The iOS app maybe works because it has different timeout constraints?

Another possible clue -- I had 32 season passes when I encountered a failure. Any chance there's a limit there? I'm up to 34 now that iOS has added two, so it's not an absolute limit...

(Disclaimer -- haven't yet tried clearing anything or even rebooting.)


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## ej42137

WhoAmI said:


> My Roamio Pro is doing this -- first noticed yesterday, still a problem today. First started seeing spinning circles for manual recordings a few weeks ago, figured it was related to the disk filling up (lots of items in to-do and in now playing). First failure to make season pass was yesterday, happened again today. Discovered work-around for that when iOS app was able to schedule the season pass.
> 
> It feels like the Roamio perhaps times out before it finishes scheduling the recording (if each new episode it picks up from the pass takes several seconds like manual ones do now, then it might add up to a lot of time). The iOS app maybe works because it has different timeout constraints?
> 
> Another possible clue -- I had 32 season passes when I encountered a failure. Any chance there's a limit there? I'm up to 34 now that iOS has added two, so it's not an absolute limit...
> 
> (Disclaimer -- haven't yet tried clearing anything or even rebooting.)


I've got 155 season passes currently, which is by no means a high water mark. My Roamio laughs at your pitiful 34 season passes and wonders if you are really committed to this television thing after all?


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## barryk

ej42137 said:


> I've got 155 season passes currently, which is by no means a high water mark. My Roamio laughs at your pitiful 34 season passes and wonders if you are really committed to this television thing after all?


Yeah, I've got about 85, and have had around that number since I got the Roamio about 4 months ago. The problem only started showing up after I got the 20.4.5c update - seems pretty likely that's the culprit.


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## WhoAmI

ej42137 said:


> I've got 155 season passes currently, which is by no means a high water mark. My Roamio laughs at your pitiful 34 season passes and wonders if you are really committed to this television thing after all?


Hey, I've only had the thing for a couple months!


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## lpwcomp

I have 100 SPs on my Pro, which is the one having the problem. My Basic is OK.


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## globalgreg

barryk said:


> Yeah, I've got about 85, and have had around that number since I got the Roamio about 4 months ago. The problem only started showing up after I got the 20.4.5c update - seems pretty likely that's the culprit.


Problem started with the 20.4.5 update, not the 20.4.5c update.


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## dcpmark

RoyK said:


> Getting the spinning circle sometimes when starting to play a recording. Romeo has only been installed for a few days. It's quite annoying.


I have the same problem now, and it's a new problem for me. I've had my Pro for a while now, and it's always been lightning fast. Within the last week it started giving me the blue spinning circle whenever I start or delete a recording.

Not pleased.


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## southerndoc

dcpmark said:


> I have the same problem now, and it's a new problem for me. I've had my Pro for a while now, and it's always been lightning fast. Within the last week it started giving me the blue spinning circle whenever I start or delete a recording.
> 
> Not pleased.


Also have the problem. Saw it on Christmas Day, and again was doing it tonight. Whenever you click on a show it will give a spinning circle for about 45 seconds before it brings up the show info. You can't play a show until the spinning circle goes away.

TiVo's stream app also doesn't work when it's doing this.

I think it's a problem with TiVo's servers.


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## NorthAlabama

i have now gone one month without blue circles scheduling season passes, or guide data holes, since i last went through my workaround (posted upthread). for me, at least, i think the issue is resolved (fingers crossed), ymmv.


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## southerndoc

NorthAlabama said:


> update: it appears i've been able to correct the blue circles and inability to schedule a sp:
> 
> settings & messages > help > restart or reset > clear thumb ratings & suggestions
> settings & messages > help > restart or reset > clear program info & to do list​
> i'm thinking the issues were a result of corrupted guide data, time will tell.


That doesn't delete season passes, correct? I'm assuming it will create a new to do list with the next guide update?


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## NorthAlabama

geekmedic said:


> That doesn't delete season passes, correct? I'm assuming it will create a new to do list with the next guide update?


no, it won't delete your season passes, and any one-time recordings you scheduled are restored, too.

the process takes time, and at least a couple of connections, to completely restore your guide data and to do list, so allow yourself an hour or so to complete (to not miss any recordings).

i suspect there are at least two different issues contributing to the blue spinning circles, one appears to be network (or tivo server) related, the other appears to be guide data related. if your issue is network related, this workaround probably won't help, but it won't hurt to try. good luck!


----------



## JoeKustra

I did those resets and had no ill effects. Last night I think the TiVo servers were a bit messed up. The guide is still having issues though. Even though it shows the new episodes for Criminal Minds and Stalker on 1/14, a SP attempt indicated no programs (for the last three days). I'm waiting for the internals to catch up with the guide.


----------



## WorldBandRadio

geekmedic said:


> That doesn't delete season passes, correct? I'm assuming it will create a new to do list with the next guide update?


Yes, it does create a new ToDo list.

The procedure didn't delete my season passes, but it did delete some shows I had recorded. I think it may delete shows that are on the My Shows list, but had previously been deleted and recovered.

I had to visit Recently Deleted and recover them (again). Make sure you check Recently Deleted to see if anything got deleted. You may need to search the entire Recently Deleted. Some of my shows were scattered throughout.


----------



## bantar

I've been having a problem with the Blue Spinning Circle for a number of weeks now. However, I believe that there is a more fundamental problem (and larger) problem than reported here. Here is the errant behavior that I've noticed:


 Can't add new season passes. No error, it just times out after a while.
 Can't modify existing season pass options. Same timeout behavior.
 Can't Search for a show, then record a single episode.
Guide display takes 7-14 seconds to load. On guide screen, move from channel to channel is instant, but the program data to the right takes 7+ seconds to load. However, this doesn't display the blue spinning circle. You just need to wait.
 At least one season pass was not recording shows. It appears that most were working correctly as best I could tell. (Trying to fix this issue led me to this thread).
 Selecting a single episode to record while in the Guide DOES work correctly. It too is slow to complete the operation, but the show is added to the ToDo list. Note: Trying to add a season pass by starting with the Guide does not work. Just single episodes.
 Can't add a season pass or one time recording via the Tivo Android App. The app simply says Loading for a while and never completes.

I had recently cleared the Program Guide data, (after the last software update) so I did not expect this to be a solution, but it was for another bug caused by this last software update (failure to push programs & metadata correctly). Finally needed to actually schedule something and searched to see if this was previously reported. So, per the notes here, I proceeded to Clear the Program Guide data. There are changes, but real problems remain. Here is the behavior post clear:


 After network connect and loading completed, but BEFORE the ToDo list was fully created, I tried to search for a program and schedule a single recording. This failed with the blue circle. This might be telling as later, this same operation will work just fine.
 Let it rest overnight for ToDo population. Then tried again in the morning. Search and single program recording worked just fine.
 Added and modified a season pass and both worked fine.
 Recording via Android app is working again.
 The Guide remains jacked. Hit the Guide button from watching a show. Guide pops up quickly. Channel list is fully populated, however right pane for the currently selected channel is blank for 7-14 seconds. Then select next channel down. 7 second delay for loading. Next channel down - same. Then back up to previously loaded channel (to see if it was an initial loading problem). Nope. 7 seconds. Back and forth between two channels has a delay. Paging down (later in the day) within a channel is also delayed. Page back up and back down all are delayed. 

And we have reports in this thread that some needed to repeat this fix. At best, I think we have a partial work-around, but there is a bug in the program guide lurking. Something that we're doing will cause a failure and we can try this work-around. It appears that we really need a bug fix release.

Has anyone else noticed an issue with the Program Guide? Or have a solution for my remaining problem?


----------



## slowbiscuit

Have you tried repeating Guided Setup using a different zip code in your area, then selecting your lineup again? Has fixed problems for some.


----------



## NorthAlabama

have you reported your issues to tivo?


----------



## bantar

slowbiscuit said:


> Have you tried repeating Guided Setup using a different zip code in your area, then selecting your lineup again? Has fixed problems for some.


Well no, I had not tried that. Grumble... Grumble... It's a painful exercise as it must reload program data twice, once for the dummy selection and again for my actual provider.

But, I have to say, it FIXED the guide slowness problem. Thank you for the suggestion. The guide is now Snappy! 

And to answer NorthAlabama, I have not reported this to Tivo.


----------



## NorthAlabama

bantar said:


> ...I have not reported this to Tivo.


please consider it. i've been working to resolve the mess with my tivo since the release of 20.4.5, and if others aren't reporting, tivo just might have the impression it's not that big of a deal. i'm not saying to necessarily do what they ask to resolve the issues - they mostly don't have a clue anything's wrong (which is why reporting helps).

so far i've been asked to follow the guided setup "00000" solution, then try a neighboring zip code instead, asked to delete my season passes (below 75?), delete recordings (below 50%?), switch from wireless to wired, and on and on and on (and none of it worked).


----------



## Ficman

I saw this for a few days over the New Year's break, but it seems to have settled down as of last night... Anybody know what happened?


----------



## wmhjr

NorthAlabama said:


> please consider it. i've been working to resolve the mess with my tivo since the release of 20.4.5, and if others aren't reporting, tivo just might have the impression it's not that big of a deal. i'm not saying to necessarily do what they ask to resolve the issues - they mostly don't have a clue anything's wrong (which is why reporting helps).


Yes, I agree. *Please call and report issues! *I know it's a real PITA to call Tivo, wait in hold, and talk to a usually trained CSR. But I do it simply because I get so tired of hearing the old "never heard of that before" story. I report every single issue so they have no excuse. The entire "My support" area on Tivo.com is a joke. I have a laundry list of Reference numbers and subjects, but they're shown as "solved" or "completed" even though they are nothing of the sort. When you click on them there is no information about what the issue is, and the statement "This incident can no longer be updated" - even though as an example, one of them is from only two days ago. But at least there is a record of the issue

Frankly, I'm not even at all convinced at this point that anything going through a CSR ever even makes it anywhere else. It appears as though their "case notes" are utterly useless and unused pieces of historical prose, with no process to get that data to where it would do good. But if we don't report it, we KNOW they won't know. There sure isn't effective instrumentation on either our devices or their systems to manage performance!


----------



## bantar

bantar said:


> But, I have to say, it FIXED the guide slowness problem. Thank you for the suggestion. The guide is now Snappy!


Well, either repeating the guided setup broke the SP issue again, or it failed for some other reason. I have a snappy guide and can't record SP's or one time shows any longer. So....

I Cleared Program Data. After it finished, I was still not able to record SPs and now my guide is back to very delayed response. So, I tried a shortcut and reran the Guided Setup again, but didn't change the cable provider. It was a waste of time as it didn't fix either the guide or SP issue. (Laziness gets you nothing! ) Next, I repeated the Guided Setup with a different provider and verified that I had a snappy guide. Didn't try a SP. Then repeated the Guided Setup with the correct cable provider AND..... sigh..... it still doesn't work. 



wmhjr said:


> Yes, I agree. *Please call and report issues! *I know it's a real PITA to call Tivo, wait in hold, and talk to a usually trained CSR. But I do it simply because I get so tired of hearing the old "never heard of that before" story.


Since I had a real problem now, I was able to call Support and report the issue. After some digging, she confirmed that they are aware of the problem and are working on a fix. No date for the fix was provided, nor was a hint given as to when it might appear.

Their recommended work-around is to keep trying. Second option is to try to schedule from tivo.com.

At the moment, it does appear that scheduling from tivo.com is working - sometimes. The Android app appears to allow scheduling of SPs, but takes forever to complete.


----------



## lpwcomp

bantar said:


> At the moment, it does appear that scheduling from tivo.com is working - sometimes. The Android app appears to allow scheduling of SPs, but takes forever to complete.


Did you actually verify that the SPs were created? When I had the problem, I never got an error with the TiVo app but it didn't actually create the SP or schedule a recording.


----------



## pppingme

This is getting bad, I even get the blue circle deleting shows. I can't set recordings, I can't set season passes, deleting is very hit and miss, and its gotten very bad in the past 24 hours.


----------



## bantar

lpwcomp said:


> Did you actually verify that the SPs were created? When I had the problem, I never got an error with the TiVo app but it didn't actually create the SP or schedule a recording.


Yes I did verify that tivo.com initiated recordings are happening. It looks like all that I scheduled worked. (Maybe I didn't wait long enough for it to get thru before posting last).

With the Tivo App, when it fails, it does so silently. It just says "loading", but nothing happens. I just retried with the tivo app and it did not work.

I also tried editing an old existing SP to change from New & Repeats to just New. It failed to edit on the Tivo. However, using kmttg, I was able to edit the SP just fine.


----------



## dcpmark

geekmedic said:


> Also have the problem. Saw it on Christmas Day, and again was doing it tonight. Whenever you click on a show it will give a spinning circle for about 45 seconds before it brings up the show info. You can't play a show until the spinning circle goes away.
> 
> TiVo's stream app also doesn't work when it's doing this.
> 
> I think it's a problem with TiVo's servers.


FWIW, a simple restart of the Pro fixed the problem for me.


----------



## ej42137

zzzzzmman said:


> So, in order to allow me to schedule season passes, apparently I have to place a chicken in a paper bag and spin it over my head three times.


I, for one, am getting really tired of seeing you play with that chicken. Aren't you getting dizzy?


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## wscottcross

ej42137 said:


> I, for one, am getting really tired of seeing you play with that chicken. Aren't you getting dizzy?


+1. Posting the same thing 6 times in 6 different threads is not cool.


----------



## pkyzivat

(I had posted an independent query and was referred to this thread. So I'm reposting here.)

I have observed this blue spinning circle behavior for a long time (on my prior TiVos as well as my new Roamio). I get this for every season pass I enter, even though most of them are ultimately successful.

I have a conjecture about what this is:

I think it is covering the time it takes to recompute the ToDo list schedule. When you add a new season pass it potentially can cause other season passes to be rescheduled, based on the priority of the different passes. This *could* in principle be optimized if the new pass is added to the end of the list (the default), since in this case the new one should not impact anything already scheduled. But I am guessing that this optimization is not applied - that instead an entirely new schedule is computed based on the complete revised list of season passes. This is more evident when you are editing the list - changing the order of entries. You can move things up and down without any noticeable delay, but once you do something that depends on the todo list it then takes a long time - about the same as adding a new pass.

I believe the reason this takes a long time for me is that I have a lot (>100) passes. A simple scheduling algorithm will probably take at least O(n^2) time, so it will go up rapidly as the number of passes increases. (And I am guessing this scheduling is done in something slow, like a shell script.) And this can explain why those who have fewer passes might never, or rarely, see the blue circle.

In my case most attempts to add season passes still complete successfully, after a delay. But I have one particular program where it doesn't succeed - it behaves as Globalgreg describes. I don't know why this program is special.

Perhaps there is an upper bound on how long this can take - after which it is aborted. But if so, there *ought* to at least be an error message.


----------



## Efranzen

bantar said:


> I've been having a problem with the Blue Spinning Circle for a number of weeks now. However, I believe that there is a more fundamental problem (and larger) problem than reported here. Here is the errant behavior that I've noticed:
> 
> 
> Can't add new season passes. No error, it just times out after a while.
> Can't modify existing season pass options. Same timeout behavior.
> Can't Search for a show, then record a single episode.
> Guide display takes 7-14 seconds to load. On guide screen, move from channel to channel is instant, but the program data to the right takes 7+ seconds to load. However, this doesn't display the blue spinning circle. You just need to wait.
> At least one season pass was not recording shows. It appears that most were working correctly as best I could tell. (Trying to fix this issue led me to this thread).
> Selecting a single episode to record while in the Guide DOES work correctly. It too is slow to complete the operation, but the show is added to the ToDo list. Note: Trying to add a season pass by starting with the Guide does not work. Just single episodes.
> Can't add a season pass or one time recording via the Tivo Android App. The app simply says Loading for a while and never completes.


I've got all of these problems and I'm also starting to encounter additional problems. Occasionally when I go to play a recording, my Roamio Pro seems to lock up completely for a minute or more. The screen goes black and it will not respond to any key presses on the remote.

Also, when trying to fast forward through recordings, it will go for a couple of minutes and then just stop. What I mean it say I start fast forwarding at the 10 minute mark of a recording. It will get to the 12 minute mark and nothing else will happen. The screen will freeze frame at that point and the timing marker will no longer advance. If I press play it will sometimes take 10 or more seconds before it actually starting playing.

It's gotten to the point where my Roamio Pro is almost completely unusable. I can't search. I can't schedule recordings. I can't schedule season passes. And now I can barely even play previously recorded material?


----------



## Efranzen

FYI, shortly after making that previous post above, I tried to schedule a single recording from the guide and got the blue spinning circle for 12 minutes during which time my Roamio Pro would not respond to any key presses. I contacted Tivo support and they said they have no ETA on a fix and gave me 2 months free service.


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## bantar

Efranzen said:


> FYI, shortly after making that previous post above, I tried to schedule a single recording from the guide and got the blue spinning circle for 12 minutes during which time my Roamio Pro would not respond to any key presses. I contacted Tivo support and they said they have no ETA on a fix and gave me 2 months free service.


I too have seen the Blue Circle go on forever a number of times. There's an easy way out. Using the Tivo App, I'm able to go to the guide, select any channel and then say "Watch Now". This seems to bring the Tivo back to normal activity. The regular remote does nothing.


----------



## pkyzivat

I just saw something yesterday about a TiVo change that supposedly will be pushed out in February, replacing Season Passes with "OnePass", integrating season passes with streaming video sources.

I wonder if this will have any effect on the blue spinning circle season pass problem? It could be an entirely new implementation, removing old bugs (and adding new ones). Or it could aggravate the existing bug by adding more delays. Or it could be that the problems we are seeing recently have already been caused by software updates in preparation for OnePass.


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## bornleader

If you choose to delete the TDL will it ever automatically repopulate and under what conditions? TIA, Dave


----------



## JoeKustra

bornleader said:


> If you choose to delete the TDL will it ever automatically repopulate and under what conditions? TIA, Dave


If you mean you have done the reset that deletes the list, then it will be repopulated from your SP list and any other recordings you have scheduled. This happens before you can view a blank list.


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## lpwcomp

Is anyone seeing this on anything other than a Plus or Pro?


----------



## lpwcomp

JoeKustra said:


> If you mean you have done the reset that deletes the list, then it will be repopulated from your SP list and any other recordings you have scheduled.


Wouldn't the latter depend on your security settings?


----------



## chicagobrownblue

lpwcomp said:


> Is anyone seeing this on anything other than a Plus or Pro?


I have it on a Roamio Basic. I attribute it to slow/erratic connectivity to the Internet. Somewhat like one of the initial problems the Premiere had with the HDUI.


----------



## lpwcomp

chicagobrownblue said:


> I have it on a Roamio Basic. I attribute it to slow/erratic connectivity to the Internet. Somewhat like one of the initial problems the Premiere had with the HDUI.


Is it simply slow or does it actually fail?


----------



## bantar

lpwcomp said:


> Is anyone seeing this on anything other than a Plus or Pro?


Actually yes. I'm seeing this problem on the Premiere XL4. I tagged along with the Roamio thread because the symptoms didn't seem machine specific.


----------



## chicagobrownblue

lpwcomp said:


> Is it simply slow or does it actually fail?


It is slow; it does not fail. The problems like this on the Premiere would resolve themselves sometimes if you waited long enough, like 20 minutes. It was just easier to reboot the Premiere as long as nothing was recording and ultimately to switch the Premiere to the SDUI.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

I've seen this blue spinning circle on occasion. It's probably coincidence, but one time it started just after I had been watching Netflix. Anyone else notice that?

Perhaps a reboot is warranted after watching Netflix on demand?


----------



## allstarz

Having the same issue (blue spinning circle) on my Roamio basic, for a couple of weeks, not a chronic or disabling problem yet.
I have read somewhere that TiVo has moved to a 'cloud based' system in the roamios and are having issues that appear as the b.s.c.'s.
I have not read any posts in this thread mention this.
Also running software 20.4.5c on my Roamio basic.


----------



## wmhjr

chicagobrownblue said:


> I have it on a Roamio Basic. I attribute it to slow/erratic connectivity to the Internet. Somewhat like one of the initial problems the Premiere had with the HDUI.


Can you be a bit more specific? I would in no way attribute this behavior to "slow/erratic connectivity to the Internet". In fact, I think I can provide proof that it is not.

The spinning circle is happening more and more frequently IMHO. It has happened pretty much every day for the past several days. Last night, I encountered one when seeking "Info" on a show in "My shows". I immediately hit the Tivo Central button, went to Netflix, and started playing Netflix content. It behaved completely normal. I then hit Tivo Central and went back to My shows, and hit info on a show and again got a spinning circle. Then went back to Tivo central, went to Amazon and started playing Amazon content via Prime. Completely normal.

I believe this issue is not specific to just one thing, but is largely due to issues with the Tivo "central" ecosystem as others both here in this thread and in other threads have mentioned. There are possibly further issues when the Tivo is updating that can cause similar - but not identical behavior. For example, this happened with one of my Roamio Pros when it was completing an update - however the Roamio was also "sluggish" to respond to the remote. Slightly different behavior.


----------



## wmhjr

allstarz said:


> Having the same issue (blue spinning circle) on my Roamio basic, for a couple of weeks, not a chronic or disabling problem yet.
> I have read somewhere that TiVo has moved to a 'cloud based' system in the roamios and are having issues that appear as the b.s.c.'s.
> I have not read any posts in this thread mention this.
> Also running software 20.4.5c on my Roamio basic.


Post #7 mentions it.


----------



## wmhjr

One other thing I found a little odd.

I went ahead and cleared my thumb ratings and suggestions, and then cleared my guide data and to do list as per the instructions earlier in this thread (thank you). 

Several points of interest.

1) This did absolutely nothing to rid the spinning blue circles for me.

2) This did remove some apparently "orphaned" items in my "To Do" list that I had been trying to get rid of for some time.

3) Though I followed the exact same steps (including reboots) one of the Roamio Pros started rebuilding the To Do list pretty quickly, and was done within about 30 minutes after the rest of the process was finished. The other took hours to even start to rebuild. Both Roamio Pros had similar numbers of Season Passes on them. Neither had wish lists of any real consequence. If on that "slow" Roamio, I selected a Season Pass, slightly modified it, and saved it, then it would appear in my To Do list immediately. Otherwise, I would say ti took between 3 and 4 hours to repopulate.


----------



## NorthAlabama

wmhjr said:


> I went ahead and cleared my thumb ratings and suggestions, and then cleared my guide data and to do list as per the instructions earlier in this thread (thank you)...This did absolutely nothing to rid the spinning blue circles for me...


was your tivo experiencing the blue circles, then timing out after a long wait, when adding season passes, or scheduling one-time recordings using the guide?


----------



## timlind53

We have been experiencing that same issue of the "Blue spinning circle when adding a season pass" with our new Roamio Pro. It started yesterday.
I was able to schedule something using Tivo.com so I guess I do it that way until they get a fix in. 
We don't have that problem on our older Tivos.


----------



## bornleader

I hate Comcast. I finally decided to leave them and invest in a Tivo device. I have wanted a Tivo for 10 years but couldn't make the leap. Comcast helped me with their X1 box. If they have internal problems or I lose Comcast connectivity the X1 box is useless. That's right, you can't even watch content that you have recorded on the X1 box without connectivity to their servers. 

So I now have a Tivo Roamio that has blue spinning circle issues when trying to use programming or information features. 

I can still watch content tho. I guess that is an improvement. 

Not a nice place to be for a brand new Tivo customer tho. 

Dave


----------



## Arcady

I just scheduled a few season passes on my Roamio Pro (which is connected to Comcast) and I didn't see any blue circle or any other delay at all.


----------



## bornleader

I get this problem every other day or so. Sometimes I get this problem at 6PM EST and then it is ok later in the evening, sometimes not. Some days I never get this problem. I never have any problems on my Comcast Internet, telephone or video feeds. 

It HAS to be Tivo's data cloud some how. Has Tivo ever commented on the cause and what their customers should do to avoid the problem? 

Regards,

Dave


----------



## slowbiscuit

Not only do I see the circle when adding SPs now, I also see them when updating recording options for existing SPs and ARWLs (like adding more padding). Takes a good 20-30 secs. now for it to complete.

It's definitely something Tivo has added with the last s/w release, not a big deal since this stuff is not used that often.


----------



## wmhjr

NorthAlabama said:


> was your tivo experiencing the blue circles, then timing out after a long wait, when adding season passes, or scheduling one-time recordings using the guide?


The answer is yes and yes. And more.

It has recently not "timed out". However it's happened when adding season passes, when modifying season passes, when scheduling one time recordings, when selecting content for more info.


----------



## bantar

bornleader said:


> I hate Comcast. I finally decided to leave them and invest in a Tivo device. I have wanted a Tivo for 10 years but couldn't make the leap. Comcast helped me with their X1 box. If they have internal problems or I lose Comcast connectivity the X1 box is useless. That's right, you can't even watch content that you have recorded on the X1 box without connectivity to their servers.
> 
> So I now have a Tivo Roamio that has blue spinning circle issues when trying to use programming or information features.
> 
> I can still watch content tho. I guess that is an improvement.
> 
> Not a nice place to be for a brand new Tivo customer tho.
> 
> Dave


See my update on this issue here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10364820#post10364820

In the meantime, in spite of all of my problems, I now have a snappy TiVo, but I must schedule shows via tivo.com. I've not had a single scheduling fail using this method. It's a royal pain, but the device is fully functional. The record now button works, but any future shows must be done using TiVo.com.


----------



## pkyzivat

slowbiscuit said:


> Not only do I see the circle when adding SPs now, I also see them when updating recording options for existing SPs and ARWLs (like adding more padding). Takes a good 20-30 secs. now for it to complete.
> 
> It's definitely something Tivo has added with the last s/w release.


Note that all the cases you mention require recomputing the schedule. A change of this sort to one SP potentially disturbs the schedule for many other SPs. And that scheduling process can be compute intensive.

I had been assuming that all of that work was done locally on the TiVo box. (It had to be on the old TiVos with only phone access.) But maybe with the Roamio this work is being delegated to the cloud, and becomes subject to resource issues there and network problems.

But I'm inclined to think that this scheduling is still done locally, and the blue circle when editing SPs is simply reflecting that it is taking a long time locally.

But the blue circle in other cases might indeed be cloud issues.


----------



## lpwcomp

I'm wondering if it is changes made to the servers to support the impending "One Pass" which is hopefully undergoing at least some beta testing.

Note: I have no idea if One Pass actually requires any server changes.


----------



## NorthAlabama

wmhjr said:


> The answer is yes and yes. And more.
> 
> It has recently not "timed out". However it's happened when adding season passes, when modifying season passes, when scheduling one time recordings, when selecting content for more info.


were the recordings or modifications completed after your wait? in my case, no changes were ever completed following the time out.


----------



## bornleader

NorthAlabama said:


> were the recordings or modifications completed after your wait? in my case, no changes were ever completed following the time out.


About 25% of the time the season pass did not take affect (double check marks) after a sixty second timeout.

ARGH!!!! Why did I ever give up my mostly working Comcast X1 box?

D


----------



## pkyzivat

bornleader said:


> About 25% of the time the season pass did not take affect (double check marks) after a sixty second timeout.
> 
> ARGH!!!! Why did I ever give up my mostly working Comcast X1 box?
> 
> D


I've been a happy TiVo user for about 10 years. This is mostly a new phenomenon. (I did get sometimes get long delays on season passes on my TiVo HD, but they never failed), and I don't think I ever got such delays when doing other things.

I guess it is new software. Hopefully they will work it out.

OTOH, it would be nice if they would make an official comment about it.


----------



## wmhjr

JoeKustra said:


> If you mean you have done the reset that deletes the list, then it will be repopulated from your SP list and any other recordings you have scheduled. *This happens before you can view a blank list*.


Joe,

This part (the highlighted part) is not true.

In another thread I documented this. In attempts to clear "orphaned" items in my To Do list that should have gone away more than a week prior (but never did) I went through the "clear thumb ratings and suggestions" and then the "clear program information and to do list".

I did this on two different Tivo Roamio Pros. I did the first one, and then waited until everything had updated (including two reboots) before starting the second.

In both cases, when you do the "clear program information and to do list", you will right after that see a totally blank "To Do List" if you try to view it. It will in fact be empty. On my first machine, it took about an hour or so IIRC for the list to repopulate based on my SPs (had no WLs). On the second machine, it took over 5 hours.


----------



## wmhjr

pkyzivat said:


> Note that all the cases you mention require recomputing the schedule. A change of this sort to one SP potentially disturbs the schedule for many other SPs. And that scheduling process can be compute intensive.
> 
> I had been assuming that all of that work was done locally on the TiVo box. (It had to be on the old TiVos with only phone access.) But maybe with the Roamio this work is being delegated to the cloud, and becomes subject to resource issues there and network problems.
> 
> But I'm inclined to think that this scheduling is still done locally, and the blue circle when editing SPs is simply reflecting that it is taking a long time locally.
> 
> But the blue circle in other cases might indeed be cloud issues.


I'm pretty sure that it's Tivo service (meaning what everyone here is calling "cloud" (lots of different definitions of cloud) that is behind this.

Season Passes are highly integrated into central Tivo services. I think we have proof already prior to this that the Season pass scheduling function is totally dependent on central Tivo services.

Remember back a number of months ago, when (a couple of times) Tivo central "servers" (I hate using that description) were "down"? I think it was the beginning of October 2014? There were I think three major "outages" or "problems" within a couple months. One of the "symptoms" or "effects" were that you could not schedule a season pass. Not on your Roamio, not with your app, and not via Tivo.com.


----------



## JoeKustra

wmhjr said:


> Joe,
> 
> This part (the highlighted part) is not true.
> 
> In another thread I documented this. In attempts to clear "orphaned" items in my To Do list that should have gone away more than a week prior (but never did) I went through the "clear thumb ratings and suggestions" and then the "clear program information and to do list".
> 
> I did this on two different Tivo Roamio Pros. I did the first one, and then waited until everything had updated (including two reboots) before starting the second.
> 
> In both cases, when you do the "clear program information and to do list", you will right after that see a totally blank "To Do List" if you try to view it. It will in fact be empty. On my first machine, it took about an hour or so IIRC for the list to repopulate based on my SPs (had no WLs). On the second machine, it took over 5 hours.


Strange that we saw two different effects. I just took it for granted that the SP set the To Do List quickly. I may try it again. Something must be different.


----------



## wmhjr

My guess would be that when you did it, for whatever reason your unit was just either super fast, maybe you didn't have a lot of SPs, or something. Or it could simply be software bloat, where over time, the performance of the Roamio degrades as Tivo updates SW adding more and more "features" (I use that term VERY broadly as much of what we get I don't call a feature). 

I also think that we really don't know for sure, but it could also be related to Tivo Service performance. We know for sure that Season Pass scheduling, modifying, etc are all highly tied to and dependent on the Tivo service (meaning it's not executed local on the Roamio). I'm thinking that more than we realize may be getting processed on their end.

One thing: If you're going to try it, make sure you do it when you don't have any scheduled recordings for at least 4 or 5 hours. Or, you need to go into Season Pass Manager and modify something then save it for something that is "supposed to" record sooner. If you modify the SP and save it, it will be immediately added to your To Do List. If you simply use SPM and view an existing SP, don't modify it, but then save it, it will NOT be immediately added to your To Do list. At least that was my experience last week.


----------



## JoeKustra

Today would be good since the next event is SNL. BTW, I have suggestions disabled and no WL items and nothing with a thumbs up. About 22 SP though.


----------



## chicagobrownblue

wmhjr said:


> Can you be a bit more specific? I would in no way attribute this behavior to "slow/erratic connectivity to the Internet". In fact, I think I can provide proof that it is not.


The internet connection is shared by 100+ people in a condo building. The Internet in general is slow now, sometimes painfully slow when it is brutally cold outside because more people use the Internet, for instance working from home via VPN.

The Internet connection in the building had a lot less bandwidth when I had the Premiere. The web browsing slowness and the Premiere problems diminished as the warm weather arrived and disappeared entirely when I started using the SD menu full time.


----------



## wmhjr

chicagobrownblue said:


> The internet connection is shared by 100+ people in a condo building. The Internet in general is slow now, sometimes painfully slow when it is brutally cold outside because more people use the Internet, for instance working from home via VPN.
> 
> The Internet connection in the building had a lot less bandwidth when I had the Premiere. The web browsing slowness and the Premiere problems diminished as the warm weather arrived and disappeared entirely when I started using the SD menu full time.


I think, however, you may be correlating things that are not correlated. Since the behavior effects people with dedicated 50/50 and even faster fiber connections with no measurable latency or problems, it could easily have nothing to do with the symptom. Remember - different traffic, protocols, etc have different bandwidth and latency requirements. Quite frankly, IMHO if your pipe is strong enough to even maintain a VPN connection for those in your building, it should be more than enough to satisfy the "non-streaming" aspects of your Tivo.

Bottom line is that I would not point to your internet connection for the issues that you're speaking of. Yes, it's a (IMHO distant) possibility, but given all the other reports it seems unlikely.


----------



## pkyzivat

wmhjr said:


> I also think that we really don't know for sure, but it could also be related to Tivo Service performance. We know for sure that Season Pass scheduling, modifying, etc are all highly tied to and dependent on the Tivo service (meaning it's not executed local on the Roamio). I'm thinking that more than we realize may be getting processed on their end.


Do we know that?

Has anyone tried disconnecting from the internet and then trying to add a season pass?


----------



## lessd

pkyzivat said:


> Do we know that?
> 
> Has anyone tried disconnecting from the internet and then trying to add a season pass?


Good question, I will have to try that tonight. It must work as you can purchase something to use the Roamio with a phone connection, I think.


----------



## JoeKustra

Actions: clear thumbs up and suggestions
remove network
add SP for The Americans
check To Do List: shows the new SP
change priority of SP
On TiVo.com the SP and ToDo list do not reflect new SP
Force network connection
No change on TiVo.com
Proves I have too much free time?


----------



## wmhjr

Interesting. I know back in October during all the outages, even with the Roamio Pro disconnected from network, I could not set a season pass. However, I just pulled the Ethernet cable from a Roamio Pro, validated that it had "No Connection" and was able to create a season pass. 

I'm now rebooting the Tivo with no network cable in just for kicks to see what happens when it boots without connectivity. Just idle curiosity. 

They must have changed it. Which is a good thing.


----------



## wmhjr

And after reboot with no network, Season passes can still be created. 

However, one interesting thing. While the season pass I created resulted in the "double checks" next to the content in the guide (meaning it was set to record resulting from a SP) the events were not in the To Do list.....


----------



## chicagobrownblue

wmhjr said:


> Bottom line is that I would not point to your internet connection for the issues that you're speaking of. Yes, it's a (IMHO distant) possibility, but given all the other reports it seems unlikely.


My prediction is that my problem will diminish or disappear in a month or two when bandwidth is less utilized in my building. Of course new software could fix this in the same time frame.

As far as "erractic" is concerned, I would expect that Roamio users closest to the TiVo servers would have fewer problems and those that are both close and have very fast internet connections would either not see this problem at all or it would be brief. If this analysis is correct I would expect the problem to be most notable in Maine, SE Florida, Alaska, Hawaii and Puerto Rico and non-existent in Silicon Valley.

But, I'll bite, what is your reason for my bsc?


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## lpwcomp

I too think it is most likely a TiVo server problem.


----------



## JoeKustra

wmhjr said:


> And after reboot with no network, Season passes can still be created.
> 
> However, one interesting thing. While the season pass I created resulted in the "double checks" next to the content in the guide (meaning it was set to record resulting from a SP) the events were not in the To Do list.....


Since you brought it up, I don't see a close relationship between the guide and the SP and To Do List. A loose relationship maybe. I chose to test The Americans since I expected it to fail because it is on the last full day of my guide and most of the time, a SP scheduled for a program at the end will display a "no upcoming episodes" message. I know this clears up in a day or two. I don't watch the program anyhow so the SP is now gone.


----------



## lscotte

One problem with the recommendation to use the website to work around this bug is that you are forced to opt-in to Tivo collecting personally identifiable viewing history, even though there is no technical requirement to do so, and they don't require this of the mobile app (for example). Since I refuse to opt-in to Tivo using MY data for THEIR marketing purposes I guess I'm stuck, as the Android mobile app has the same everlasting spinner problem for me.

Interestingly, I remember using the website's season pass manager before without having to opt-in, so perhaps this is a recent change.

Off topic, but I'm contemplating if requiring opt-in for this is even legal - can they force you to do so in order to fully use the product you've paid for? Not sure, but in the meantime this is another thing to flood Tivo tech support about...


----------



## morac

JoeKustra said:


> Actions: clear thumbs up and suggestions
> 
> remove network
> 
> add SP for The Americans
> 
> check To Do List: shows the new SP
> 
> change priority of SP
> 
> On TiVo.com the SP and ToDo list do not reflect new SP
> 
> Force network connection
> 
> No change on TiVo.com
> 
> Proves I have too much free time?


TiVo.com updates when the TiVo does a VCM connection. The last time that happened is in the System Info screen.

I find in curious that you can schedule recordings and season passes while not online as that definitely didn't used to be the case. It's possible TiVo added an "offline mode" to handle when the local network is down.

In most cases the TiVo is in online mode though. This could be simulated by doing something like resetting your modem and then trying to schedule a season pass while it's re-establishing a connection.


----------



## wmhjr

morac said:


> I find in curious that you can schedule recordings and season passes while not online as that definitely didn't used to be the case. It's possible TiVo added an "offline mode" to handle when the local network is down.
> 
> In most cases the TiVo is in online mode though. This could be simulated by doing something like resetting your modem and then trying to schedule a season pass while it's re-establishing a connection.


I was surprised at this as well. I would say however, that Tivo did not add it for when the "local network is down" because for many people, if the local network is down, so is the "content" network (such as FiOS, etc). I would say Tivo would have added it as protection for when "Tivo systems" (meaning Tivo hosting/communications) is down, such as back during the fall of 2014.


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## wmhjr

chicagobrownblue said:


> My prediction is that my problem will diminish or disappear in a month or two when bandwidth is less utilized in my building. Of course new software could fix this in the same time frame.
> 
> As far as "erractic" is concerned, I would expect that Roamio users closest to the TiVo servers would have fewer problems and those that are both close and have very fast internet connections would either not see this problem at all or it would be brief. If this analysis is correct I would expect the problem to be most notable in Maine, SE Florida, Alaska, Hawaii and Puerto Rico and non-existent in Silicon Valley.
> 
> But, I'll bite, what is your reason for my bsc?


Well, I don't think anyone has a definitive explanation for sure - only Tivo will ever know, and I doubt they'll ever tell us. However....

1) You are experiencing the same symptoms as other people (the reason for this thread).

2) While you have "suspicions" about your internet performance, it is happening to people all over (look at many of the locations that are provided in some of the profiles of other people experiencing the issue) And at least some of those people (myself for one) know exactly what kind of performance we're getting from our "local" network and local provider.

3) The suggestion that an individuals distance from Tivo could be lending weight to this is unlikely in the extreme. Internet just doesn't work that way. When you have a device making a connection through the web to a destination, it sure doesn't go anywhere near a straight line. In fact, a user in NY, resolving a URL which is hosted in NY, could easily have their traffic backhauled from NY to Chicago and then back to NY. A customer in Oregon resolving a URL in San Diego may have their traffic backhauled to Houston and then through San Jose, and finally to SD.

4) Just because you have 100 people on a connection for your building does not necessarily mean it's bad. Think of broadband performance like a hose. Throughput (or Mbps) can be thought of as the diameter of the hose. At a given speed, how much data can be crammed through the hose per second. But the other culprit is latency, which can be thought of as how long water - regardless of the volume - moves from the beginning of the hose to the end. It's not a perfect analogy but it works well enough. Unless you know what kind of speed/latency you're getting, and what is minimally acceptable for a Tivo to function, it is entirely possible (and frankly should be overwhelmingly probable) that at times when your "browsing" on a tablet or PC is poor, that it's still perfectly fine for Tivo functions other than streaming content.

5) If in fact people were experiencing this as a result of insufficient internet performance in their Tivo communicating to Tivo "Hosting' it would mean that the Tivo design specification was faulty, in that it would be requiring unreasonably high performance. I think we can totally eliminate this, because at the same exact time that the Tivo can display this spinning blue circle, at least some of us can still stream content (such as Netflix, Amazon, Hulu - even on the Tivo). As a matter of fact, I've not noticed a single person mentioning that when this happens, they have any other issues (network or otherwise) with any other function or service beyond a Tivo device connecting with - and only with - Tivo.

So, like I said, anything is possible. But from a troubleshooting perspective, I sure can't see any correlation with general internet performance from a customer perspective. Additionally, since the symptoms universally seem to have showed up at around the same time - which seems to be rather closely correlated with the rollout of a SW update, combined with the fact that Tivo has in fact experienced hosting difficulties since this past fall in particular, the most likely culprits would seem to be either another SW defect, hosting service issues, or a combination of the two. But it's still anyones guess.


----------



## JoeKustra

Very good ideas. I agree and have been spending some time trying to explore speed issues. Like, why, when I run the Ookla app on my Premiere, Roamio, Sony BD and Sony TV do I get different numbers? But I run the Ookla test from the speedtest.net I'm pretty consistent even if the server is 2000 miles away. I can understand distance being very unimportant. I also feel time spent finding the bottleneck is worth it. I just upgraded my modem, router and even the adapters on almost everything. All that isn't on the 5gHz band is my printer and the Premiere is wired. Transfers between my Roamio and old laptop are now reliable and exceed 60mbs and between the Premiere and Roamio are over 80mbs. The numbers: Premiere 5500 kb/s, Roamio 9600 kb/s, TV 16300 kb/s and Blu-ray 17700 kb/s.


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## chicagobrownblue

wmhjr said:


> So, like I said, anything is possible.


Then you will never be a good analyst. You throw up your hands and can not phantom why things happen.

The 100+ units in my building does not mean 100 connections. Unit residents have boy friends/girl friends using PCs/Macs, smart phones, TiVos, Rokus, VPN connections using the internet, security systems placing videos offsite... When it is brutally cold outside they will be using the Internet more. I guess you think my building has infinite bandwidth. Computer says no.

As far as routing is concerned. Cisco has built a multi-billion dollar market selling routers that optimize the flow of web traffic. They will only route through Houston if that is the best path, if a better path is available, the Cicsco routers will use it.

*If the TiVo servers are overwhelmed with requests, this would appear to me as the same thing as a slow Internet connection*. If this is correct, the bsc problem will be really bad when it is brutally cold across most of the US, when large numbers of users are heavily using their TiVos and will be the same in San Jose, CA and San Juan Puerto Rico. Again, when the weather warms up, I expect the problem will diminish or disappear for everyone. Your expectation?:



wmhjr said:


> So, like I said, anything is possible.


----------



## lpwcomp

Performance varies. Since I did a CPI&TDL, it's only failed once. There's been a noticeable delay a few times but yesterday I created two SPs for series not yet in the guide and it was almost instantaneous. No BSC at all.


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## wmhjr

chicagobrownblue said:


> Then you will never be a good analyst. You throw up your hands and can not phantom why things happen..... Your expectation?:


My expectation is that I'm done talking to you. My guess is that I have more time in this field than you can imagine. When somebody starts off a statement with what you said (above) I have no interest in discussing it further. Welcome to ignore.


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## wmhjr

lpwcomp said:


> Performance varies. Since I did a CPI&TDL, it's only failed once. There's been a noticeable delay a few times but yesterday I created two SPs for series not yet in the guide and it was almost instantaneous. No BSC at all.


I haven't had them for the past couple days either, though like you there have been some noticeable delays. But no BSC. So, after doing the clear of thumb ratings, suggestings, and program info and to do lists, I still had BSC for a number of days, and the last couple they have not been visible.


----------



## Diana Collins

There is obviously a user-specific aspect this since, no matter how many people have reported this problem, it is NOT universal. I and many other Tivo users do not experience constant blue spinning circles or, worse, timeouts (personally, I have NEVER seen an action timeout).

So, SOMETHING is different about the cases where this is a frequent occurrence. I don't know if it is a drive issue, a network (LAN or WAN) problem, something specific to certain guide content or something else entirely. Rather than arguing over what one or another person considers the likely cause (and then "ignoring" that person's posts) I would think the more productive approach would be to try and find commonalities.

Of course, the fact that there ARE so many possible causes, and since the symptom really tells us no more than that the DVR is busy doing something else, makes it possible we are dealing with multiple causes all resulting in the same effect and there is little commonality across the various cases.


----------



## wmhjr

Diana Collins said:


> There is obviously a user-specific aspect this since, no matter how many people have reported this problem, it is NOT universal. I and many other Tivo users do not experience constant blue spinning circles or, worse, timeouts (personally, I have NEVER seen an action timeout).
> 
> So, SOMETHING is different about the cases where this is a frequent occurrence. I don't know if it is a drive issue, a network (LAN or WAN) problem, something specific to certain guide content or something else entirely. Rather than arguing over what one or another person considers the likely cause (and then "ignoring" that person's posts) I would think the more productive approach would be to try and find commonalities.
> 
> Of course, the fact that there ARE so many possible causes, and since the symptom really tells us no more than that the DVR is busy doing something else, makes it possible we are dealing with multiple causes all resulting in the same effect and there is little commonality across the various cases.


I do not agree that there is something "user specific" to this. I don't think we have enough data. For the record, everyone here has reported that it is sporadic - and not constant. As noted, I don't get timeouts. I get spinning circles, and the frequency depends.

I have no interest in debating least cost routing, major hub, locations of ISP gateways with somebody who tells other that they'll never be a "good analyst" and Cisco building a multi-billion dollar market - when in fact that person making the statement clearly doesn't understand the tiering of ISP bandwidth, and the complexities of routing. So, there is simply no reason to continue. Obviously they know better, so better to let them bask in that glow.

The symptoms tell us a lot more than "the DVR is just busy doing something else". On this thread and another we have discussed commonalities. None of those included a "slow local network" and none of them had any apparent correlation to the location in the US (or wherever) the person is. They do seem to correlate to some extent to SW versions but that is obviously not confirmed. They do correlate to the fact that this happens when other network related activity (such as streaming even via the Roamio) works fine. But as said, we'll likely never know, as this is exactly the kind of issue that Tivo will rarely even acknowledge - much less provide information about. I do agree that this may be from multiple causes, though IMHO those cases may be a combination of recent SW updates combined with Tivo system contention - or a combination of both.


----------



## lessd

Diana Collins said:


> There is obviously a user-specific aspect this since, no matter how many people have reported this problem, it is NOT universal. I and many other Tivo users do not experience constant blue spinning circles or, worse, timeouts (personally, I have NEVER seen an action timeout).
> 
> So, SOMETHING is different about the cases where this is a frequent occurrence. I don't know if it is a drive issue, a network (LAN or WAN) problem, something specific to certain guide content or something else entirely. Rather than arguing over what one or another person considers the likely cause (and then "ignoring" that person's posts) I would think the more productive approach would be to try and find commonalities.
> 
> Of course, the fact that there ARE so many possible causes, and since the symptom really tells us no more than that the DVR is busy doing something else, makes it possible we are dealing with multiple causes all resulting in the same effect and there is little commonality across the various cases.


I have had the blue circle (not too many times, goes away the next day) and if I have it on one Roamio I have the same thing on all my Roamios, can't be too user specific.


----------



## Diana Collins

wmhjr said:


> I do not agree that there is something "user specific" to this. I don't think we have enough data. For the record, everyone here has reported that it is sporadic - and not constant. As noted, I don't get timeouts. I get spinning circles, and the frequency depends...


Well if we don't have enough data to say that only some users see the problem then we don't have enough data to say there is ANY problem at all. And earlier in the thread some users were certainly making it seem like the problem was frequent, if not constant (e.g., not being able to add ANY Season Passes).



wmhjr said:


> ...The symptoms tell us a lot more than "the DVR is just busy doing something else"...


Really? What would that be?

It can certainly be a software bug, but one that only appears under certain circumstances (IOW, is user specific).


----------



## wmhjr

Diana Collins said:


> Well if we don't have enough data to say that only some users see the problem then we don't have enough data to say there is ANY problem at all. And earlier in the thread some users were certainly making it seem like the problem was frequent, if not constant (e.g., not being able to add ANY Season Passes).
> 
> Really? What would that be?
> 
> It can certainly be a software bug, but one that only appears under certain circumstances (IOW, is user specific).


Let's you and I just agree to disagree. I'm not going to argue with you. It's pointless.


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## Diana Collins

lessd said:


> I have had the blue circle (not too many times, goes away the next day) and if I have it on one Roamio I have the same thing on all my Roamios, can't be too user specific.


It could still be user specific since (I assume) all your DVRs are at the same location.

I make no claim to know what is causing the problem. Nor do I deny that there is a problem. I can only tell you that I don't have the problem and since thousands of users aren't calling up TiVo (or more than a handful posting here) they also don't seem to have a problem. Since we run the same hardware and software you do, it is not something as simple as defect in the software. SOMETHING in your use case, and the others that see the problem, is different than mine and that difference is triggering the problem (regardless of underlying cause).

Bottom line, some people have the problem and some don't. That's pretty much the definition of a user specific issue.


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## wmhjr

Diana Collins said:


> Bottom line, some people have the problem and some don't. That's pretty much the definition of a user specific issue.


I'm sorry - I wasn't going to say anything else, but... That is perhaps the quote of the year! Absolutely hilarious!


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## mchief

Just another data point. I was getting ready to watch a recorded show and got the spinning blue circle and then a black screen with the preview window working. Remote non-responsive. It was then I noticed my network had crashed. Rebooted the modem and router and got the network back, but Tivo Roamio still frozen. Rebooted Tivo and all back to normal. Still do not understand why the network would have any bearing on watching a previously recorded show. Really stupid.


----------



## bantar

wmhjr said:


> I haven't had them for the past couple days either, though like you there have been some noticeable delays. But no BSC. So, after doing the clear of thumb ratings, suggestings, and program info and to do lists, I still had BSC for a number of days, and the last couple they have not been visible.


I'm still failing. Tried again yesterday - didn't work. Used tivo.com to setup the recording, which worked correctly.



Diana Collins said:


> Well if we don't have enough data to say that only some users see the problem then we don't have enough data to say there is ANY problem at all. And earlier in the thread some users were certainly making it seem like the problem was frequent, if not constant (e.g., not being able to add ANY Season Passes).


Are you just trolling this thread? I envy that your units are working fine, but this thread IS capturing the fact that there are real problems afoot for a number of users. Tivo support even confirmed that it is a bug and that a fix is being prepared. If YOU don't have a problem, then please move onto the next thread that you resonate with. How is it helping to say WE don't have "ANY problem at all"??

Personally, I've benefited from the useful contributors to this thread and am thankful for their help. I look forward to having a much-less-exciting TiVo that let's me schedule SPs again.


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## Diana Collins

I am just trying to help, having seen these sorts of issues in Dish DVRs and DirecTV DVRs over the years. In my experience, speculating on the cause is unproductive. The most productive results come from collecting as many data points as possible, such as DVR model, disk size and model (if upgraded), which cable company and guide data set, network topology (MOCA or ethernet or wireless), what was previously being watched, what else the DVR may have been doing, etc. 

You all do what you please. I hope the next release solves the problem.


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## wmhjr

I've seen no evidence of any attempt to help, other than to make some (IMHO ludicrous) statement that "there is obvious a user specific aspect" to this, and to effectively discount the suggestion that this was frankly most likely related to either Tivo hosting or a SW defect. In fact, there have been some points of correlation which you have apparently discounted made through this and related threads. Instead, you make a statement that because some people are experiencing it but you (and others perhaps) are not, then it is "the definition of user specific". You do realize the fallacy of your statement, don't you? By your logic, any defect that does not effect EVERYONE is "user specific"? Which is utterly preposterous. 

No insult intended, but please take this comment from somebody who likely has at least equal experience with DVRs over the years, specifically including Tivo equipment, MSO equipment (Verizon, Comcast and more) and both Dish and Direct DVRs. Your methodology as you state in the previous post is simply a reflection of last century troubleshooting. It effectively ignores the fact that our "newer" Tivos have a FAR different method of operations, resulting from their dependency on central Tivo services (call them "cloud" services if you like). Our Roamios have effectively off-loaded functionality to the cloud, creating different scenarios. In other words, a C&E matrix or FMEA on a Tivo would look VERY different today than it would have even 4 years ago. For the record, the BSC is not confined to just SP management. Had you read through this entire thread you would have seen posts that indicated the following, as a general synopsis:

1) BSC when trying to manage SPs on your unit - not on Tivo. com
2) BSC when pressing "Info" on a show in "My Shows"
3) BSC when pressing "select" rather than "Play" in "My Shows"
4) No BSC when pressing "Play" rather than "Select" in My shows (meaning that during the same period that "select or info" results in BSC, "play" does not. 
5) Even when BSC appears, hitting Tivo Central and then Netflix or Amazon streaming works perfectly fine.
6) Reports that (after clearing program info and guide data) "To Do" list restoration taking longer than expected (or ordinary) - such as more than 4-5 hours
7) BSC symptoms started appearing after rollout of SW update.
8) BSC symptoms are NOT correlated to specific time of day, and occur when Tivo is NOT trying to make a "daily" or "update" connection to Tivo.

What do all of these things have in common?

Maybe look at your own post - post #7 back in November......


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## pkyzivat

wmhjr said:


> Our Roamios have effectively off-loaded functionality to the cloud, creating different scenarios.


Do you know this for a fact? If so, where is the evidence? I *suspect* that this might be the case, but I can't point to anything in particular where it is entirely clear that such a change has been made.

For instance, earlier in this thread somebody (was it you?) reported on an experiment that demonstrated that you can indeed add/edit season passes without a network connection. And also my own experience shows that an addition of a season pass locally can fail, while the same season pass can be successfully added via tivo.com. That indicates two distinct mechanisms, one local and one cloud based.


----------



## Diana Collins

Call it what you like, my point was that there are two pools of users, all running the same software on the same hardware. One group has a problem and the other group does not. Therefore SOMETHING if different between the two groups.

I never said that this is not a software defect. Rather I was suggesting that if it is a defect it is only encountered under certain circumstances.

I am a software product manager by profession and the first step in correcting an issue is to reproduce it. Reproduction of software defects are notoriously difficult since some action taken prior to the action that reveals the defect may, in fact, be the cause - not the later action. IMHO, there has been insufficient data and consistency of reporting to reliably try and reproduce this problem. Can it be caused by problems at TiVo servers? Absolutely! By a bug is the software? Again, without question. Could it be caused by something specific being done that wasn't anticipated or tested by TiVo? Yes again (and after almost 30 years in the software industry, these are the most common, and most difficult to fix, sorts of bugs).

I'm done...I have no dog in this hunt. As I said, I hope the upcoming release solves the problem. It is very frustrating to have a piece of technology not perform as expected.

Good luck.


----------



## wmhjr

pkyzivat said:


> Do you know this for a fact? If so, where is the evidence? I *suspect* that this might be the case, but I can't point to anything in particular where it is entirely clear that such a change has been made.
> 
> For instance, earlier in this thread somebody (was it you?) reported on an experiment that demonstrated that you can indeed add/edit season passes without a network connection. And also my own experience shows that an addition of a season pass locally can fail, while the same season pass can be successfully added via tivo.com. That indicates two distinct mechanisms, one local and one cloud based.


Yes, we know this for a fact. There are a large number of threads on this site which clearly discuss the increased dependency on Tivo "central services". What none of us really know is the extent. And it is changing all of the time - both points are kind of the point of this statement.

For example, I and others noted that back in Sept/Oct, during the issues where Tivo hosting was "down", you could NOT schedule a SP on your device. That is incredibly clear. In the interim, a (unpublished) change was made, resulting in the changed behavior.

I would not call it "two distinct mechanisms" but rather an undetermined process flow. Remember that we were only able to force the Tivo to do SPs "locally" by completely removing the network connection. We do not know and have no reason to believe that if the Tivo does have a internet connection it still does not default to SP management via Tivo central services.

I agree that we don't know the extent. I think it's safe to say it's a fact that services previously executed by local Tivo units are now by default provided by Tivo services, and that there may or may not be "backup" or "secondary" processes capable of doing some undetermined amount in the event of loss of connectivity. Go back and look at the threads from the two major outages in 2013 (not BSC but actual outages) and you'll see confirmation that at THAT time, SP management was not possible.


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## wmhjr

Diana Collins said:


> Call it what you like, my point was that there are two pools of users, all running the same software on the same hardware. One group has a problem and the other group does not. Therefore SOMETHING if different between the two groups.
> 
> I never said that this is not a software defect. Rather I was suggesting that if it is a defect it is only encountered under certain circumstances.
> .


Again, I'm pointing out that you're stuck in the "pre-cloud" world. If there are two pools of users, it could be as simple as different pools of users being supported by different clusters or application pools within the Tivo hosting service. The difference does NOT need to be something with the users themselves. Let's say there are 4 different 16 way clusters supporting users segregated by who knows what kind of logic. Those being supported by cluster "A" could see degraded performance while those serviced by clusters "B, C and D" "might" see different behavior.

Or frankly, simple load balancing could explain why some users would experience issues while others did not. If not properly instrumented, it's highly common for Load balancers to believe web servers are "healthy" and to continue to direct requests through them even when they are misbehaving. Those requests would exhibit issues, while those being handled by unaffected web servers in that application pool would be fine.

SaaS, Cloud, etc have changed how you have to look at troubleshooting.


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## sirfracas

I had some of the same issues - unable to add season passes, unable to modify wishlists, BSC on simple operations and clearing preferences and guide data fixed me up.


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## dellybelly

Just throwing my name in here for getting the BSC. Just got my Tivo and Mini about a week ago. 

Added most of my shows fine; then realized that the default recorded both new and repeats; went through and started updating these; thats when my problems seemed to have started. I got all but 1 show to update (Key and Peele) and when I try to change it I get the BSC and no changes occur. 

Now can't add any SP; specifically trying to add The Walking Dead; when trying I get the BSC and then back to the menu. I will try to clearing of data this evening to see if that fixes it. 

Network is Gigabit on a FIOS 50 plan; so bandwidth should be the least of my worries. I did have my Mini unable to get a tuner last night which resulted in having to powercycle the Roamio; not sure exactly what that was about but it happened after starting a recorded show from the Mini and then backing out; once I tried to go back in just black screen; then proceeded to try live TV which also was black screen. 

Hopefully things settle down as I'm with Tivo because I was tired of the fiddling I had to do with WMC for the past 7 years although I do miss commercial skip! man that was great.


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## globalgreg

A fix for this is listed on the version that released today to those on the priority list.


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## dellybelly

globalgreg said:


> A fix for this is listed on the version that released today to those on the priority list.


Yea i signed up a few days back; probably too late though as I didn't get it. Looks like im stuck till February with manually adding my recordings  Bummer.


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## globalgreg

NorthAlabama gives a fix in post#13 that fixed my problem (and it hasn't re occurred).


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## dellybelly

globalgreg said:


> NorthAlabama gives a fix in post#13 that fixed my problem (and it hasn't re occurred).


Thanks, that was my goto for tonight! Seems it's worked for most people, so definitely hoping. Also just noticed the walking dead eventually went through using the android app; luckily i don't have many more shows to add!

Appreciate the tip; there are a lot of pages to this thread.


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## pkyzivat

dellybelly said:


> Yea i signed up a few days back; probably too late though as I didn't get it. Looks like im stuck till February with manually adding my recordings  Bummer.


Where is it that you signed up for this?


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## joewom

pkyzivat said:


> Where is it that you signed up for this?


Its closed for new adds. TIVO said if you didn't sign up for priority update all will be updated by the end of Feb.


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## pkyzivat

joewom said:


> Its closed for new adds. TIVO said if you didn't sign up for priority update all will be updated by the end of Feb.


Fine. I get that. But for future reference, where did that happen?


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## globalgreg

pkyzivat said:


> Fine. I get that. But for future reference, where did that happen?


You can still sign up for it. You'll get it next wrk after the Super Bowl. http://www.tivo.com/priority_20.4.6


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## pkyzivat

globalgreg said:


> You can still sign up for it. You'll get it next wrk after the Super Bowl. http://www.tivo.com/priority_20.4.6


Hmm. I presume there must be some discussion somewhere on what this update intends to fix. (Like a discussion on tivo.com of this bug.) Where can I find that?


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## globalgreg

pkyzivat said:


> Hmm. I presume there must be some discussion somewhere on what this update intends to fix. (Like a discussion on tivo.com of this bug.) Where can I find that?


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10386574


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## Mr Tony

globalgreg said:


> NorthAlabama gives a fix in post#13 that fixed my problem (and it hasn't re occurred).


That didnt help me. Still get the BSC when I try to add a SP, update a SP, add extra time to a recording and searching.

Hopefully I got the update today (doubt it but never know)


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## globalgreg

unclehonkey said:


> That didnt help me. Still get the BSC when I try to add a SP, update a SP, add extra time to a recording and searching.
> 
> Hopefully I got the update today (doubt it but never know)


You won't. Next week after the Super Bowl maybe if you signed up on the priority list.


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## Mr Tony

I did sign up on the list


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## lpwcomp

globalgreg said:


> You won't. Next week after the Super Bowl maybe if you signed up on the priority list.


Not sure where you got that information but the update has started rolling out already. Both of my Roamios have been updated.

Edit: They were on the priority list.


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## globalgreg

I got that information from TivoMargaret's post that I posted a link to that was dated 1/28.

"We have just authorized the first 2,000 TiVo Roamio and TiVo Mini customers from the priority list (http://tivo.com/priority) to receive the 20.4.6 software update. Additional groups of customers (including TiVo Premiere signups) will be updated AFTER the Superbowl. (So, if you dont get it today, you will get it next week.)"


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## lpwcomp

globalgreg said:


> I got that information from TivoMargaret's post that I posted a link to that was dated 1/28.
> 
> "We have just authorized the first 2,000 TiVo Roamio and TiVo Mini customers from the priority list (http://tivo.com/priority) to receive the 20.4.6 software update. Additional groups of customers (including TiVo Premiere signups) will be updated AFTER the Superbowl. (So, if you dont get it today, you will get it next week.)"


Right. Which means that the first 2000 _*Roamio*_ users on the priority list are already getting it.


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## NorthAlabama

i have one sp that will not set, 55 rotations of the bsc, then it times out, no sp set. since it's only one show, it could be an anomaly, but at this point i don't care, i just want the issue to go away.

i am waiting for the update next week to see if it resolves the issue (and for how long), i'm sick of the workaround, and can remember to manually set one weekly recording. 

this is really beginning to get old (about two months ago).


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## justen_m

NorthAlabama said:


> i am waiting for the update next week to see if it resolves the issue (and for how long), i'm sick of the workaround, and can remember to manually set one weekly recording.


According to the release notes for 20.4.6
"- Fixed an issue where some customers would see a blue spinning circle when trying to create or update a Season Pass (now OnePass)"

I've been upgraded (I signed up for it). Not sure if it has been fixed or not. I will certainly report it if I see it with the new code. (Most people will be upgraded next week, I think).

You may or may not be happy with the "upgrade." OnePass removes some functionality that exists now, mainly being able to set multiple season passes for a show.

[edit] Sounds like everyone will be upgraded by the end of February, not necessarily next week.


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## joewom

justen_m said:


> According to the release notes for 20.4.6
> "- Fixed an issue where some customers would see a blue spinning circle when trying to create or update a Season Pass (now OnePass)"
> 
> I've been upgraded (I signed up for it). Not sure if it has been fixed or not. I will certainly report it if I see it with the new code. (Most people will be upgraded next week, I think).
> 
> You may or may not be happy with the "upgrade." OnePass removes some functionality that exists now, mainly being able to set multiple season passes for a show.


I have not seen the spinning blue circles since the update two days ago. I saw it a good bit before. Will keep updates if it appears. I for one so far like one pass. TIVO can't please everyone. There will always be that 10% that think their idea is best for all.


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## NorthAlabama

justen_m said:


> According to the release notes for 20.4.6
> "- Fixed an issue where some customers would see a blue spinning circle when trying to create or update a Season Pass (now OnePass)"
> 
> I've been upgraded (I signed up for it). Not sure if it has been fixed or not. I will certainly report it if I see it with the new code. (Most people will be upgraded next week, I think).
> 
> You may or may not be happy with the "upgrade." OnePass removes some functionality that exists now, mainly being able to set multiple season passes for a show.
> 
> [edit] Sounds like everyone will be upgraded by the end of February, not necessarily next week.


i added my pxl to the priority list immediately, i should be one of the early premiere updates if all goes as expected (fingers crossed). i've followed margret's notes and the roamio thread, and don't believe the 1p issue will impact my sp mgt, it now appears a well defined auto-record wishlist will take care of any priority and deletion issues i can anticipate.


joewom said:


> I have not seen the spinning blue circles since the update two days ago. I saw it a good bit before. Will keep updates if it appears.


were you ever prevented from scheduling an sp?


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## joewom

NorthAlabama said:


> i added my pxl to the priority list immediately, i should be one of the early premiere updates if all goes as expected (fingers crossed). i've followed margret's notes and the roamio thread, and don't believe the 1p issue will impact my sp mgt, it now appears a well defined auto-record wishlist will take care of any priority and deletion issues i can anticipate.
> 
> were you ever prevented from scheduling an sp?


No I was. It just long wait times with the blue circle. I added my xl4 the day it went live so I'm hoping I'm one of the first to be updated on that side.


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## Mr Tony

NorthAlabama said:


> were you ever prevented from scheduling an sp?


when it took 2 or 3 times to set up a SP I think they were trying to prevent me from adding one 

Funny how last night during the SB I set up a SP for that new show on ABC and had NO BSC. But after the SB I went to add a SP and got the BSC. Took two tries to add it

(dont have new software yet but am on list)


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## nooneuknow

unclehonkey said:


> when it took 2 or 3 times to set up a SP I think they were trying to prevent me from adding one
> 
> Funny how last night during the SB I set up a SP for that new show on ABC and had NO BSC. But after the SB I went to add a SP and got the BSC. Took two tries to add it
> 
> (dont have new software yet but am on list)


The last SP I added wouldn't take for 3 days, and only took root hours after I resorted to setting it from tivo.com. Even KMTTG failed to work for those 3 days. I was lucky the SP was 4 days out.

You had it easy!


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## Arcady

I still haven't seen one of these blue circle things.


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## NorthAlabama

i couldn't wait for the update for a fix, unable to delete shows and schedule season passes, it was easier to apply the workaround again - at least it temporarily resolves my tivo software failures.

eta: bsc gone, now able to schedule season passes and delete shows. here's hoping the update addresses at least some of the issues, and that my current setup remains stable until it's updated.


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## morac

I got a blue spinning circle last night trying to extend a recording for The Blacklist. It failed once, but I was able to do it the second time. 

I have the 20.4.6 update. Actually since the update, I've been seeing a lot of blue spinning circles. They usually only last a second or two, but I wasn't really seeing them prior to updating.


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## NorthAlabama

morac said:


> I got a blue spinning circle last night trying to extend a recording for The Blacklist. It failed once, but I was able to do it the second time.


the same happened to me, failed once, completed second attempt - i believe this is a different bsc from the one that prevents recordings and season passes from being scheduled.

i figured it was due to network congestion, someone mentioned a lot of people were watching a sporting event last night.


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## gespears

morac said:


> I have the 20.4.6 update. Actually since the update, I've been seeing a lot of blue spinning circles. They usually only last a second or two, but I wasn't really seeing them prior to updating.


That's bad news. I was hoping 20.4.6 would clear this up.


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## morac

gespears said:


> That's bad news. I was hoping 20.4.6 would clear this up.


They seem to have cleared up, so maybe it was a server problem.


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## Arcady

The fact that they clear up for people when they pull the ethernet cord tells me this is a network-related issue. I did see a blue circle for less than a second while re-ordering season passes earlier tonight.


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## nooneuknow

Arcady said:


> The fact that they clear up for people when they pull the ethernet cord tells me this is a network-related issue. I did see a blue circle for less than a second while re-ordering season passes earlier tonight.


That has only worked for me when it was clear (thanks to the forum members reporting in), that something was up with the TiVo Service backend servers.

I recently completed a CPI&TDL reboot on the problem boxes you might recall me bringing up elsewhere. Any blue circles, now can be missed in 1/2 a blink.

The last time I did the same thing was January 1st. That didn't give me a whole lot of "no blue circles" time, until I had to do it again.

I have some theories on what's going on, parts of which others share, but not something I discuss the details of out in the open. The corruption ends up on the box, and might pass through with time, or it might not. It's YMMV on that aspect, and it's also become very clear just how differently everybody uses their TiVos. It could be a factor in if they just clear up, or if you have to take action.


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## gespears

After doing the clears, recording season passes started working again. But the guide data was slow. Now the guide data is back to normal but the season pass problem is back. Although if I press "get a season pass" without going into the options for the season pass like I normally do, it is much more successful. I still get the blue circle for about 30 seconds but it does record the season pass. It's frustrating.


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## Mr Tony

Arcady said:


> The fact that they clear up for people when they pull the ethernet cord tells me this is a network-related issue. I did see a blue circle for less than a second while re-ordering season passes earlier tonight.


yup I was one of them
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=525488

start at post 10
Had ethernet hooked up and got BSC all the time. Now I rarely see it (havent seen it in a few days now)


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## NorthAlabama

Arcady said:


> The fact that they clear up for people when they pull the ethernet cord tells me this is a network-related issue. I did see a blue circle for less than a second while re-ordering season passes earlier tonight.


sure, i believe sometimes i've had bsc when the guide is accessing tivo's servers. other times, though, when it lasted a minute, even ten minutes or more, then failed to schedule an sp, removing the network didn't help. i'm still convinced there is more than a single issue causing the bsc, an issue that's server related, and another that's data corruption related:


NorthAlabama said:


> i suspect there are at least two different issues contributing to the blue spinning circles, one appears to be network (or tivo server) related, the other appears to be guide data related.


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## mandms7

I'm having this problem again this evening with my Roamio. Reboot did not resolve it. My Premiere had no issues adding a Season Pass.

Anyone else experiencing this tonight?


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## bantar

I've continued to have the blue spinning circle when adding new recordings thru yesterday. Today, I just received the 20.4.6 update for the Premieres and I've scheduled both OnePasses and individual recordings from the guide. All recordings were successful and setup quickly. It would appear that this bug is now fixed.


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## opus472

Getting the throbber (spinner) a lot this morning, never saw that in over 8 years with the series 3. Sigh...


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## dougdingle

opus472 said:


> Getting the throbber (spinner) a lot this morning, never saw that in over 8 years with the series 3. Sigh...


Yes, the problem returned with the last 'update', which also strangely included a message telling me that One Pass has 'improved', except I was sent the identical message a month or more ago.

Methinks something got SERIOUSLY screwed up in the last update.


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## morac

As of the 20.5.6 update, I'm getting blue spinning circles playing recordings.


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## NorthAlabama

morac said:


> As of the 20.5.6 update, I'm getting blue spinning circles playing recordings.


i've seen this only once (today), but the blue spinning circles always seem to be more prevalent on the weekends. if it gets worse, and appears that premieres have inherited roamio's headaches, i'll make a push to get all of roamio's features, too. 

i'm much more concerned with the blue spinning circles followed by c501 errors in tivo central since i've updated:

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=534793​


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## RoyK

The circles are really bad here this morning. Thanks TiVo.


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## lessd

RoyK said:


> The circles are really bad here this morning. Thanks TiVo.


Just wait until we have internet connected toilets


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## astrohip

lessd said:


> Just wait until we have internet connected toilets


Shouldn't be a problem. That's when you want spinning circles.


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## RoyK

astrohip said:


> Shouldn't be a problem. That's when you want spinning circles.


Not if it has to call home before it lets me put up the seat...


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