# Survivor Cagayan Finale : OAD 5-21-2014



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I turned it off when Kass won the immunity challenge. If she doesn't win the thing I'll go back and watch the rest.

Edit: I just peeked and I'm glad I did. Wow! Wu. Oh, that was fun.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

And ... it's over. Congrats to Tony, but I think he owes Spencer big time. Seems to me that jury was leaning against him until Spencer's final speech.

IMO Tony deserved it once Spencer was gone. I do sort of wish we could have heard Kass's "closing argument" because I think she would have made a good one.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

So, the difference between Tony and Russell Hantz is, what? Spencer's lobbying? A change over time in how the ideal game is perceived? Luck of the draw in terms of the people he played with?

Good season. So glad Kass didn't spoil it. It had to be Spencer or Tony.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

heySkippy said:


> And ... it's over. Congrats to Tony, but I think he owes Spencer big time. Seems to me that jury was leaning against him until Spencer's final speech.


It certainly was presented that way, which means little. I haven't watched the latest Ponderosa videos yet--perhaps that and exit interviews will give clues.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

> Russell Hantz ‏@russellhantz 23m
> I needed @SpencerBGM on my ****ing jury !! Wtf


:up:


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## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

Early on, as soon as they spelled out on the screen Wu saying it would be stupid to take Tony, I knew he would be taking Tony.

I think Tony owes Spenser $100k. Tony sure did not present much of a case. As much as I disliked Kass, she would have had a hell of an offense, as previously mentioned.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

So no Fan Favorite this year? Spencer would be a lock.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Blood vs Water II. As long as there are no returning players, okay. Otherwise, bleh.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Blood vs Water II. As long as there are no returning players, okay. Otherwise, bleh.


I hope that the voice overs during the preview were from the last one, because I am 99% sure the last one was Rupert, who has been on my tv about 5 times too many.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Blood vs Water II. As long as there are no returning players, okay. Otherwise, bleh.


It's all new players, no returnees.


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## toddvj (Apr 22, 2004)

Dick move by Spenser in the final jury. What was his interest in Tony winning? 
How did Kass go from barely having her stick out of the float to having it all the way up so quickly? Shenanigans, I say. 
Tony really didn't play that well, he just got lucky. He isn't nearly as smart as Russell. Unless you consider being unpredictable a good game stategy. In any other season, with competent players all that would've gotten him is a fast ticket home. 
Kass also didn't play that well. For someone on the "brains" tribe she made some idiotic decisions, based on her temper and other emotions. 
Woo should have taken Kass to the end, but I'm glad he didn't. There is no way we can know how the vote would've gone had it been Woo vs. Kass. Remember Kass makes her living making arguments in front of a jury.
One thing to remember is Tony got very lucky throughout the game. Without the idols, even if nobody knew he had them, he would have behaved differently.


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## dfergie (Aug 27, 2006)

Thank God Kass didn't make it, sucked that Spencer lost that challenge... and, Tony owes him and Woo.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

At the reunion, that other cop (forgot her name) said that Tony was tweeting all kinds of crap about her when the episode where she got voted out aired. Did anyone happen to see those tweets? Were they really as bad as she made it seem?

Even though they voted for the person who deserved it, I was mostly annoyed with the majority of the jury. I can't stand all of those questions where the player (Tony in this case) doesn't even get to respond, or you force him to respond yes/no to some obviously false premise without giving him a chance to address how nonsensical it is. Was it Trish talking about "was it worth it to disrespect your father like that"? That's about as valid a question as "do you still beat your wife?" I don't get how so many people think that swearing on a grave (especially to a bunch of nearly strangers) is something so sacred.

Even though I couldn't stand the guy, I think Johnny Fairplay demonstrated it best. People were shocked he would disrespect his grandma, using her as a pawn like that by swearing on her (non-existent) grave. Meanwhile his grandma was actually quite proud of him for doing it.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

toddvj said:


> Dick move by Spenser in the final jury. What was his interest in Tony winning?


Why? He's a fan of the game and respects actual gameplay, and he's sick of bitter jury members who think the motto of the game is "Outfriend, Outhonor, Outrespect".


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## bryhamm (Jun 30, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Why? He's a fan of the game and respects actual gameplay, and he's sick of bitter jury members who think the motto of the game is "Outfriend, Outhonor, Outrespect".


this.

the jury was sounding bitter (or edited that way) and spencer set them straight ... and he was right


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## nmiller855 (Sep 26, 2000)

I wonder if the cops out there are bothered by the fact that Tony said that swearing on his badge doesn't mean anything to him. I was offended that he swore on his wife & baby but was most offended by him swearing on his father's grave. In my eyes, that was the most disrespectful thing anyone can do


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## bryhamm (Jun 30, 2004)

all's fair in survivor


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Why? He's a fan of the game and respects actual gameplay, and he's sick of bitter jury members who think the motto of the game is "Outfriend, Outhonor, Outrespect".


This.

I really love Spencer. All season. However, his pitch at the end was awesome and just made me love him more.

I am glad that Woo took Tony to the end.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

I'm surprised nobody has talked about how Woo cost himself a million dollars by taking Tony instead of Kass. He himself said that he would be the stupidest player in Survivor history if he took Tony. I don't know about the stupidest but he definitely put himself up there with Colby Donaldson as far as that final choice costing him the win. That half second in the final immunity challenge was probably the difference between Woo winning and losing the final vote.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

Yep...woo would have been better off had kass won the immunity challenge.


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## Dnamertz (Jan 30, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> So, the difference between Tony and Russell Hantz is, what? Spencer's lobbying? A change over time in how the ideal game is perceived? Luck of the draw in terms of the people he played with?


As Spencer was making his speech, I said "Russell could have used him".


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> And ... it's over. Congrats to Tony, but I think he owes Spencer big time. Seems to me that jury was leaning against him until Spencer's final speech. IMO Tony deserved it once Spencer was gone. I do sort of wish we could have heard Kass's "closing argument" because I think she would have made a good one.


I don't think Spencer's plea really made much difference. I think the jury was trying to find a reason not to vote for Tony and trying to talk themselves into voting for Woo, but ultimately, Tony had 39 days of track record to point to, and Woo had one arguably honorable, arguably stupid decision that he was hanging his hat on. The vote was 8-1 for Tony. There's no way Spencer turned at least four votes.



nmiller855 said:


> I wonder if the cops out there are bothered by the fact that Tony said that swearing on his badge doesn't mean anything to him. I was offended that he swore on his wife & baby but was most offended by him swearing on his father's grave. In my eyes, that was the most disrespectful thing anyone can do


I will never understand this attitude. What does it even mean to say that you "swear on" something? It's meaningless. Is there some kind of religious connotation that I don't understand? I don't get why anyone places any importance on this and why people seem to think it's a big deal when someone breaks that promise.

A promise is a promise. Whether it's sworn on something doesn't make it any stronger. If the person making the promise has no intention to keep it, then the words they say along with the promise are worthless as well. Why are people so easily swayed by such stupid cliches?


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

I see a difference between Tony & Russell even without Spencer's speech, beginning with Tony being more likeable. But on top of this Tony's strategy for getting rid of people was beyond just lying. As he said to Jefra at tribal; he waited until she was considering turning on the alliance before he made his move. Russell was never that patient or insightful. Or with Trish, Tony said it was between her & Kass and anyone (except Woo) could understand that move.

Lost in this is Tony switched alliances when they first changed tribes and (not coincidently) he aligned himself with weaker players than the LJ/Jeremiah group he was with before. And his core alliance was 4 of the last 5 and would have been final 4 if Spencer didn't have immunity so he did for the most part remain loyal. Yes he lied, but IMO Tony played a much better end game than Russell and was a more likeable person to pull it off.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Dalton's Recap: http://tvrecaps.ew.com/recap/survivor-cagayan-season-finale-recap/


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

This was the equivalent of Tina taking Colby to the finals with her 

I don't get the "I swear by this...I swear by that" stuff. If it would get me a million dollars, I'm happy to swear on my mother, dead father, kids, all future sex life...anything you want. What difference would it make to these people or things? is a bolt of lightning going to come down and kill them?

people need to get a grip on reality...


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> This was the equivalent of Tina taking Colby to the finals with her


It was the other way around, but yeah, I said the same thing to my wife last night when the vote was read.



> I don't get the "I swear by this...I swear by that" stuff. If it would get me a million dollars, I'm happy to swear on my mother, dead father, kids, all future sex life...anything you want. What difference would it make to these people or things? is a bolt of lightning going to come down and kill them?
> 
> people need to get a grip on reality...


I agree, but if I was on the jury I might hold it against someone who resorted to swearing those things if they were up against someone worthy who didn't.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Woo had a chance to make one big play in the game which would have virtually guaranteed him $1M... and he choked. I'm not a Tony fan but he deserved it and Woo did not.


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## hairyblue (Feb 25, 2002)

Woo was very dumb. Who couldn't see Tony played the game and Woo didn't. I don't agree with Tony's play style but he did a lot of big moves and found lots of idols.

If it was between Kass and Woo, I'd give it to Kass for the same reason.

Woo just didn't do anything, and how do you go a month with out shaving and only have a moustache<grin>

And the thing about Tony tweeting with the other cop on survivor, I'm sad that they didn't get passed the game. I don't know what Tony tweeted but I wish Tony would have taken the high road because she (forget her name) didn't really do anything wrong. But maybe she was tweeting hateful stuff. I don't know.

Another thing that surprised me was the time that passed. How long was it between the vote and the reading of the vote? Tony said he had parasites for 3 months in his stomach.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I wouldn't be surprised if Spencer had already made his argument for Tony at Ponderosa and producers encouraged him to do it at tribal.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I will never understand this attitude. What does it even mean to say that you "swear on" something? It's meaningless. Is there some kind of religious connotation that I don't understand? I don't get why anyone places any importance on this and why people seem to think it's a big deal when someone breaks that promise.


Yeah, I don't get it either.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

heySkippy said:


> It was the other way around, but yeah, I said the same thing to my wife last night when the vote was read.


I meant that in this case, the less deserving/floater took the one who dominated the game. So Colby took Tina with him and this time Tina took Colby 



hairyblue said:


> And the thing about Tony tweeting with the other cop on survivor, I'm sad that they didn't get passed the game. I don't know what Tony tweeted but I wish Tony would have taken the high road because she (forget her name) didn't really do anything wrong. But maybe she was tweeting hateful stuff. I don't know.


Well, Sara did say all that stuff about the badge during TC to Tony. I'm sure he did not appreciate that.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I meant that in this case, the less deserving/floater took the one who dominated the game. So Colby took Tina with him and this time Tina took Colby


Colby was neither a floater nor less deserving.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

I was a bit surprised when Tony said this was filmed a year ago. In the past I believe the fall season was shot in the spring/summer and the spring season was shot in the fall/winter. I know they filmed back to back in the spring when Probst had his own show but since it was canceled I thought they resumed the old filming schedule. 

From the EW artiicle about next season Probst said the fall season hasn't been shot yet so maybe they are going back to the old filming schedule. 

Doesn't matter, I was just surprised when Tony made that comment.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Colby was neither a floater nor less deserving.


Jesus...it would be nice if you guys actually read a post before commenting on it...


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Lol.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Oh, I see. You're not saying the situation was analogous, just equally stupid. Fair enough.


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## InterMurph (May 22, 2003)

Woo lost the game when he chose to take Tony to the finals. Everybody knows that, even Woo. Woo was playing the Tae Kwon Do Honor game, not Survivor.

But the real question for me: why did Tony vote for Spencer at the final four? Spencer made a good case; if Tony votes him (Spencer) out, and if Tony doesn't win immunity, then both Kass and Woo would be idiots to bring him (Tony) to the final. 

Why did Tony dismiss this argument? Did he think he would win the final immunity challenge? I can't imagine; he hadn't won one yet, and the final challenge always involves a puzzle.

Did he just know that Woo was more interested in honor and integrity than in winning Survivor? Did he know that his short speech to Woo about honor would win the day?

I loved Woo as a character, but he's the worst kind of Survivor player; one who isn't playing Survivor. Even Russell Hantz played a game that closely resembled Survivor; he just miscalculated the end-game in his first two seasons. But Woo wasn't even close.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> > Russell Hantz ‏@russellhantz 23m
> > I needed @SpencerBGM on my ****ing jury !! Wtf
> 
> 
> :up:


That's awesome, and I totally agree. In fact, that was the one thing I was disappointed Jeff didn't address at all in the reunion. He always asks the "if this person went to the end instead, how would you have voted" question, but I really wanted him to say "of the people who voted for Tony, how many would have voted for Woo if not for Spencer's speech"


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

InterMurph said:


> Why did Tony dismiss this argument? Did he think he would win the final immunity challenge? I can't imagine; he hadn't won one yet, and the final challenge always involves a puzzle.


Disagree. The final challenge is often an endurance thing.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

InterMurph said:


> Woo lost the game when he chose to take Tony to the finals. Everybody knows that, even Woo. Woo was playing the Tae Kwon Do Honor game, not Survivor.
> 
> But the real question for me: why did Tony vote for Spencer at the final four? Spencer made a good case; if Tony votes him (Spencer) out, and if Tony doesn't win immunity, then both Kass and Woo would be idiots to bring him (Tony) to the final.
> 
> ...


My guess would be that the Spencer's entire premise rested on the assumption that it would be a final 2. If Tony does not buy that premise, then he had to get rid of Spencer.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DancnDude said:


> Yep...woo would have been better off had kass won the immunity challenge.


Not necessarily. Yes, she too was saying it would be stupid to take Tony to the final TC. Yet it was just a few episodes ago when we heard Kass saying "I need to vote out tony...no, wait...tony is hated...I need to keep him around until the end". Her "we'd both be stupid to take tony" speech was intended to make Woo think it would be stupid to take tony, but I'm not convinced Kass was entirely convinced it was a bad idea as she was saying it.

If that's the case, then winning that immunity got Woo to 2nd place, rather than 3rd, so he's a little bit better off. Isn't the difference between those places worth something like $40k extra?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Jesus...it would be nice if you guys actually read a post before commenting on it...


In his defense, he probably thought Kass was going to win in your post and couldn't bring himself to finish reading it.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Also fair enough.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Family said:


> As he said to Jefra at tribal; he waited until she was considering turning on the alliance before he made his move. Russell was never that patient or insightful.


And neither was Tony. He turned on LJ. His whole concept of tricking LJ into considering voting out someone in the alliance so that he could justify voting out LJ was just stupid. Leave it to a cop to introduce the concept of entrapment to the game of survivor.



> Yes he lied, but IMO Tony played a much better end game than Russell and was a more likeable person to pull it off.


Any why was he more likeable? Ironically, I think it's partly because he spent 39 days pretending for everyone that survivor was about honesty, whereas Russell was at least honest enough to not pretend the game was about anything but playing to win.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Maybe because I live in an expensive area of the country, but how much would half a million dollars (after taxes) change your life?

To hear Woo tell it, he was going to start his own business, help out his mom and dad, get engaged, buy an island, 15 cars, and maybe an airplane with what's left over


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## wendiness1 (Jul 29, 2005)

I liked Wu but, yes, he was pretty much a passenger and not a driver most of the time. I had to respect that Tony searched for, and found, hidden idols. He used his skills at reading people to determine what motivated each individual and customized his moves to match. I feel badly that the thing that did Wu in was his need to uphold the honor, integrity and loyalty thing. At the final council Tony looked terrified. I think he was pretty convinced he was screwed.

I never did care much for Spencer for some reason I can't put my finger on. But I do think his final speech to the jury had less to do with respecting Tony's game play and more to do with teaching Wu a lesson (You should have taken me). I think Spencer was just sticking it to Wu.

As for the swearing on graves and such, I don't get it either. I'm surprised somebody didn't say "but it was a pinky swear!".


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Spencer thinks a little too highly of himself. I'd be fine if doesn't get invited back.


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

Woo's whole "I wanted to compete against the best" and "hold my head up high" statements were laughable. That is just rationalizing a dumb mistake. Tell yourself what you want old boy, but you screwed up on that one.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

wendiness1 said:


> I never did care much for Spencer for some reason I can't put my finger on. But I do think his final speech to the jury had less to do with respecting Tony's game play and more to do with teaching Wu a lesson (You should have taken me). I think Spencer was just sticking it to Wu.


When was Woo taking Spencer ever even a consideration? I don't think it ever was, and would have been a terrible idea. Spencer was probably the only person who actually stood a chance of beating Tony in a jury vote. He would have crushed Woo.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Spencer, and his sister, are pretty cocky. Maybe it's just youthful immaturity but I agree with those that didn't really care for him and don't want him back.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Where was Woo's honor when he turned on Cliff? Was there ever a situation where Woo made up his own mind? He took Tony to the end because Tony told him to.



cherry ghost said:


> Spencer thinks a little too highly of himself. I'd be fine if doesn't get invited back.


In Spencer's finale interview on CBS he admits that he was lucky that he had the underdog role and that he would not have been as likable in power.

He relates a funny anecdote about taking Jeff to task on weak grasp of the prisoner's dilemma. Pretty funny if you've ever rolled your eyes at Jeff appealing to game theory or Malcolm Gladwell. It sounds like Spencer's petulant side really wound Jeff up even before the game started to the point that Jeff sent Spencer a note telling him he would not win.



LordKronos said:


> Spencer was probably the only person who actually stood a chance of beating Tony in a jury vote.


According to the Ponderosa video Spencer would have won in a landslide against anyone. He had everyone's vote (excepting maybe Kass, who had not yet been evicted at that point in the video).


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Legion said:


> Woo's whole "I wanted to compete against the best" and "hold my head up high" statements were laughable. That is just rationalizing a dumb mistake. Tell yourself what you want old boy, but you screwed up on that one.


Since the Colby/Tina thing was already brought up a few time, wasn't that similar to the reason why Colby picked Tina...because Colby thought the other person (was it Keith?) was completely undeserving, so if Colby happened to lose, he could live with Tina winning the million, but not with Keith winning it.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

betts4 said:


> This.
> 
> I really love Spencer. All season. However, his pitch at the end was awesome and just made me love him more.
> 
> I am glad that Woo took Tony to the end.


Spencer is a big hypocrite. After his big speech at the end he said he'd have voted for Woo over Kass. Even though she played a better game than Woo and made major moves, I guess it's ok for him to be a bitter voter!!


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I don't agree that Kass played a better game than Woo. Of the three elements of the game--social, strategic, and competitions--she was only better strategically. Not that she was strong strategically, but she was aggressive whereas Woo was passive. IMO they were equally bad players.


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## toddvj (Apr 22, 2004)

hairyblue said:


> Woo just didn't do anything, and how do you go a month with out shaving and only have a moustache<grin>


To be fair, he had a pretty epic Mole Beard going.



InterMurph said:


> Why did Tony dismiss this argument? Did he think he would win the final immunity challenge? I can't imagine; he hadn't won one yet, and the final challenge always involves a puzzle.


Always? In most seasons I remember, it's been a test of endurance.



LordKronos said:


> Leave it to a cop to introduce the concept of entrapment to the game of survivor


I love this comment.



Fool Me Twice said:


> According to the Ponderosa video Spencer would have won in a landslide against anyone. He had everyone's vote (excepting maybe Kass, who had not yet been evicted at that point in the video).


Yes, he probably would have. Which is why he was voted out in the final four. Tony voted him out because he had a better chance of making it to the final two and winning with Spenser out of the game. It was a risky move, but it paid off.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)




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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I don't agree that Kass played a better game than Woo. Of the three elements of the game--social, strategic, and competitions--she was only better strategically. Not that she was strong strategically, but she was aggressive whereas Woo was passive. IMO they were equally bad players.


With that criteria Woo beat Tony 2-1, he was better at competitions. His social game was way better than Tony's, he didn't have any enemies.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

After watching Ponderosa, man they hated Kass. I'd almost feel sorry for her if she wasn't so smug and didn't think so highly of herself.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

JFriday said:


> With that criteria Woo beat Tony 2-1, he was better at competitions. His social game was way better than Tony's, he didn't have any enemies.


Disagree. Tony's social game was tremendous. People were hurt when he turned on them, but he had their loyalty during the game.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Disagree. Tony's social game was tremendous. People were hurt when he turned on them, but he had their loyalty during the game.


If he didn't show the immunity idols that loyalty would have been out the door. He would have been out the door. Overall I think other than Spencer he played the best game and should have won just because of the many moves he made, but a lot of those moves were orchestrated by Spencer using Tony's paranoia against him. Spencer did all 3 aspects of the game well, Tony only had one. The most important one.


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## InterMurph (May 22, 2003)

wendiness1 said:


> I never did care much for Spencer for some reason I can't put my finger on. But I do think his final speech to the jury had less to do with respecting Tony's game play and more to do with teaching Wu a lesson (You should have taken me). I think Spencer was just sticking it to Wu.


I disagree. Like most of us here, Spencer is a student of the game. I think his speech was a strong argument against Bitter Jury Syndrome.

I don't think it was necessary, but I think it was great.


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

So glad the person who played the game won instead of a dud that get's pulled along by the person playing the game. So often in these games a bitter jury gives the money to the floater. I loved Spencer's speech to the jury. 

I hereby give my children, and my children's children, full permission to swear on my grave if it helps them win a large amount of money.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Family said:


> I see a difference between Tony & Russell even without Spencer's speech, beginning with Tony being more likeable. But on top of this Tony's strategy for getting rid of people was beyond just lying. As he said to Jefra at tribal; he waited until she was considering turning on the alliance before he made his move. Russell was never that patient or insightful. Or with Trish, Tony said it was between her & Kass and anyone (except Woo) could understand that move.
> 
> Lost in this is Tony switched alliances when they first changed tribes and (not coincidently) he aligned himself with weaker players than the LJ/Jeremiah group he was with before. And his core alliance was 4 of the last 5 and would have been final 4 if Spencer didn't have immunity so he did for the most part remain loyal. Yes he lied, but IMO Tony played a much better end game than Russell and was a more likeable person to pull it off.


I see a difference between Tony and Russell. Really not that similar in playing. Russell was a bully. Tony played a strategy. Well, Russell's strategy was to bully people but he didn't really have any intelligence or plan behind it. Either time he played.



> Originally Posted by Fool Me Twice View Post
> Quote:
> Russell Hantz ‏@russellhantz 23m
> I needed @SpencerBGM on my ****ing jury !! Wtf


I am positive that Spencer would not feel the same about Russell as he did about Tony.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Johnny Dancing said:


> So glad the person who played the game won instead of a dud that get's pulled along by the person playing the game. So often in these games a bitter jury gives the money to the floater. I loved Spencer's speech to the jury.
> 
> I hereby give my children, and my children's children, full permission to swear on my grave if it helps them win a large amount of money.


:up: Nice!!! :up:


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

JFriday said:


> Spencer is a big hypocrite. After his big speech at the end he said he'd have voted for Woo over Kass. Even though she played a better game than Woo and made major moves, I guess it's ok for him to be a bitter voter!!


I disagree with that. I don't see much hypocritical about it. Kass really didn't play that great of a game. Yes, she made it to the final 3, but there was a ton of luck involved, and a lot of that was probably due to the fact she was kept around precisely because she was making herself so unlikable.

On the other hand, Kass was already in a final 3 alliance, on a team that had the numbers and was holding together fairly strong. The only reason she ended up flipping sides was because she got into an ego battle with Sara. She was too stupid to realize that Sara was in a (very temporary) power position, and that she should be catered to for just a few days to get what they needed out of her. She couldn't swallow her pride for just one vote. And when others were smart enough to figure this out, she took that as a sign that she had been abandoned by all of her tribemates...that they had picked Sara over her.

I think 90% of the time, when someone flips on their team like she did, it doesn't work out for them. Yet she chose to take that risk merely because of a bruised ego. Terrible game play in my opinion.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

betts4 said:


> I am positive that Spencer would not feel the same about Russell as he did about Tony.


Not so sure about that. Spencer gave Tony mad props for finding the hidden idols even without any clues...a strategy which Russell invented.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> I disagree with that. I don't see much hypocritical about it. Kass really didn't play that great of a game. Yes, she made it to the final 3, but there was a ton of luck involved, and a lot of that was probably due to the fact she was kept around precisely because she was making herself so unlikable.
> 
> On the other hand, Kass was already in a final 3 alliance, on a team that had the numbers and was holding together fairly strong. The only reason she ended up flipping sides was because she got into an ego battle with Sara. She was too stupid to realize that Sara was in a (very temporary) power position, and that she should be catered to for just a few days to get what they needed out of her. She couldn't swallow her pride for just one vote. And when others were smart enough to figure this out, she took that as a sign that she had been abandoned by all of her tribemates...that they had picked Sara over her.
> 
> I think 90% of the time, when someone flips on their team like she did, it doesn't work out for them. Yet she chose to take that risk merely because of a bruised ego. Terrible game play in my opinion.


But what did Woo do strategically? I think that's the biggest aspect of the game, the only one that Tony beat Woo at. Any time he was ready to make a move he chickened out. As a student of the game how can Spencer respect that? Spencer's only reason for saying he'd vote for Woo was bitterness towards Kass, bitterness that she blew up his game, bitterness that she blew him away in the last challenge that got him voted out.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Family said:


> I see a difference between Tony & Russell even without Spencer's speech, beginning with Tony being more likeable. But on top of this Tony's strategy for getting rid of people was beyond just lying. As he said to Jefra at tribal; he waited until she was considering turning on the alliance before he made his move. Russell was never that patient or insightful. Or with Trish, Tony said it was between her & Kass and anyone (except Woo) could understand that move.
> 
> Lost in this is Tony switched alliances when they first changed tribes and (not coincidently) he aligned himself with weaker players than the LJ/Jeremiah group he was with before. And his core alliance was 4 of the last 5 and would have been final 4 if Spencer didn't have immunity so he did for the most part remain loyal. Yes he lied, but IMO Tony played a much better end game than Russell and was a more likeable person to pull it off.


This is how I saw it. Even when Tony was scheming, he was fairly friendly with his team...until her got them out of the game. For those who say he played terrible, he was lucky I don't get it. His playing up the special powers idol could be used on the final four was a brilliant play. If he didn't do that, I believe he would have been out at the final four.

I think Woo loses to Kass as well. Problem with Woo is he was the classic follower. He attached himself to the strongest player but cannot point to one move he made that turned the game. Kass could do that, Tony obviously could do that. So unless the jury was just totally bitter toward Kass, I think she wins too.

Don't know if it was editing but I thought the jury was really bitter and was leaning toward voting against Tony if Woo could just find SOMETHING to hang his hat on. I think Spencer convinced them they were wasting their time. Spencer is an admitted super fan who appreciates great game play. His sister pinpointed his personality. He obsesses about things he's passionate about, and he wants the outcome right based on how he sees it. That's what was behind his whole speech. I think, if there was any doubt, Spencer will be back on another season. Probably Tony too.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

JFriday said:


> But what did Woo do strategically? I think that's the biggest aspect of the game, the only one that Tony beat Woo at. Any time he was ready to make a move he chickened out. As a student of the game how can Spencer respect that? Spencer's only reason for saying he'd vote for Woo was bitterness towards Kass, bitterness that she blew up his game, bitterness that she blew him away in the last challenge that got him voted out.


Spencer's choice becomes:
A) person without much strategy and is nice
B) person with quite flawed strategy and is not very likable.

Your idea that he should pick Kass because at least she had a strategy is not much better than saying "Well, at least Hitler had some ideas he thought might make the world better...what have you done?"

And yes...I just compared Kass to Hitler, but I'm sure Kass would still be smiling after she read my comment


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Jesus...it would be nice if you guys actually read a post before commenting on it...


Have you met us?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> This is how I saw it. Even when Tony was scheming, he was fairly friendly with his team...until her got them out of the game. For those who say he played terrible, he was lucky I don't get it. His playing up the special powers idol could be used on the final four was a brilliant play. If he didn't do that, I believe he would have been out at the final four.
> 
> I think Woo loses to Kass as well. Problem with Woo is he was the classic follower. He attached himself to the strongest player but cannot point to one move he made that turned the game. Kass could do that, Tony obviously could do that. So unless the jury was just totally bitter toward Kass, I think she wins too.
> 
> Don't know if it was editing but I thought the jury was really bitter and was leaning toward voting against Tony if Woo could just find SOMETHING to hang his hat on. I think Spencer convinced them they were wasting their time. Spencer is an admitted super fan who appreciates great game play. His sister pinpointed his personality. He obsesses about things he's passionate about, and he wants the outcome right based on how he sees it. That's what was behind his whole speech. I think, if there was any doubt, Spencer will be back on another season. Probably Tony too.


2 points:

1. Tony won because the producers gave him a free idol 

2. I just watched Kass getting to Ponderosa. They all pretended she wasn't even there. Not a single person talked to her or looked her way. She was not going to get a single vote.



dianebrat said:


> Have you met us?


LOL. Unfortunately...yes


----------



## dirtypacman (Feb 3, 2004)

Not surprised with the result after Woo decided to take Tony I knew it was just about wrapped upif the jury could see paste their bitterness. Still look back to the Russell seasons myself and think he got a bitter jury and as others have mentioned his social game lacked the trust that Tony was able to build even if he screwed them in the end. 

It was telling when Tony got finished pleading his case to Woo to keep him over Kass and he said something to the affect of "I did my best to plead my case with Woo but if I was in his shoes I would probably still take Kass" . Tony knew it was the wrong move for Woo but still backed him into a moral corner that allowed Woo to feel like the decision to keep Tony was the right one. Other then a Tony / Spencer final two I was disappointed. I did not really even like Spencer but he played hard and spoke up which I like.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

I would have liked to know how many votes Spencer swayed. I have to believe it was a lot, they all seemed pretty bitter and not likely voting for him. To me it looked like Trish might have changed her mind after the speech.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

JFriday said:


> Spencer is a big hypocrite. After his big speech at the end he said he'd have voted for Woo over Kass. Even though she played a better game than Woo and made major moves, I guess it's ok for him to be a bitter voter!!


I don't see that.

Kass played a different game than Woo but he still made it to the end and she didn't. She only won one immunity challenge. Okay, a critical one, but well, still not very good at ANY of the challenges from day one. And her stragegy really just pissed everyone off.

If anything I would call HER the Russell of the game.



LordKronos said:


> Not so sure about that. Spencer gave Tony mad props for finding the hidden idols even without any clues...a strategy which Russell invented.


I give Tony props for either remembering it or thinking of it...and doing it. Why wasn't Spencer - a fan of the game - doing this?



JFriday said:


> I would have liked to know how many votes Spencer swayed. I have to believe it was a lot, they all seemed pretty bitter and not likely voting for him. To me it looked like Trish might have changed her mind after the speech.


Would love to know how many he swayed also.


----------



## dhelsley (Sep 28, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Spencer's choice becomes:
> A) person without much strategy and is nice
> B) person with quite flawed strategy and is not very likable.
> 
> ...


OMG. Thank you. That just made my week.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

JFriday said:


> I would have liked to know how many votes Spencer swayed. I have to believe it was a lot, they all seemed pretty bitter and not likely voting for him. To me it looked like Trish might have changed her mind after the speech.


Spencer would have had to have flipped at least four votes. Seems unlikely at the last minute.

If Spencer did flip the votes it would have been at Ponderosa. He would have been lobbying for Tony all along. If the speech at the very end was the capstone of a larger campaign, then I could see that he deserves credit.

In this possible situation Spenser serves as an anti-Eric (from Russell's first season). Whereas Eric gave people permission to vote for the worthless Natalie by redefining terms like "deserving", Spenser held them up to a potential public shaming if they didn't vote for Tony.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

hairyblue said:


> Another thing that surprised me was the time that passed. How long was it between the vote and the reading of the vote? Tony said he had parasites for 3 months in his stomach.


Filming: July 11, 2013  August 18, 2013 {Wikipedia}
Finale: May 21, 2014

So, 9 months.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

hefe said:


> Filming: July 11, 2013  August 18, 2013 {Wikipedia}
> Finale: May 21, 2014
> 
> So, 9 months.


OK, that explains a lot about Tony's wife.


----------



## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Tony got busy as soon as he got back last August


----------



## Dnamertz (Jan 30, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Disagree. Tony's social game was tremendous. People were hurt when he turned on them, but he had their loyalty during the game.


I disagree. If your social game is based on lies and empty promises, then that's not a good social game. The social game continues until the final vote is cast. All those jury members who seemed deeply offended by Tony's broken sacred promises were a result of a bad social game. I'm glad they voted for him anyway, because I expect lying and backstabbing in Survivor and I think Tony played a great strategic game.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

hairyblue said:


> Another thing that surprised me was the time that passed. How long was it between the vote and the reading of the vote? Tony said he had parasites for 3 months in his stomach.





VegasVic said:


> I was a bit surprised when Tony said this was filmed a year ago. In the past I believe the fall season was shot in the spring/summer and the spring season was shot in the fall/winter. I know they filmed back to back in the spring when Probst had his own show but since it was canceled I thought they resumed the old filming schedule.
> 
> From the EW artiicle about next season Probst said the fall season hasn't been shot yet so maybe they are going back to the old filming schedule.
> 
> Doesn't matter, I was just surprised when Tony made that comment.


No, they're not going back to the old way. And they didn't switch to this new way because of Jeff's talk show. It's now been ten seasons (five years) that they've been filming this way, basically setting up their camp in one location and then filming two seasons nearly back-to-back. This started with Survivor Samoa and then Heroes vs. Villains, which were both filmed in Samoa and there was only about three weeks between the two. Survivor has decided that it's cheaper to film two seasons back-to-back in the same location rather than go out and get everything set up in one location, film one season, and then pack it all up and have to set up again a couple months later in a new location. The only change that was made for the one season Jeff was filming his talk show was that the filming schedules for those two seasons shifted a little earlier in the year, that's all.



LordKronos said:


> That's awesome, and I totally agree. In fact, that was the one thing I was disappointed Jeff didn't address at all in the reunion. He always asks the "if this person went to the end instead, how would you have voted" question, but I really wanted him to say "of the people who voted for Tony, how many would have voted for Woo if not for Spencer's speech"


I'll bet nobody would have raised their hands. These people have had days and weeks at Ponderosa to think about what they're going to do. They aren't going to change their minds at the very last minute because of something Spencer said.



LordKronos said:


> If that's the case, then winning that immunity got Woo to 2nd place, rather than 3rd, so he's a little bit better off. Isn't the difference between those places worth something like $40k extra?


No, 1st place is $1 million, 2nd place is $100k. After that, there's never been anything officially stated, but various unofficial sources have often reported that third place gets about $85k and fourth place around $70k.



JFriday said:


> I would have liked to know how many votes Spencer swayed. I have to believe it was a lot, they all seemed pretty bitter and not likely voting for him. To me it looked like Trish might have changed her mind after the speech.


See above. I don't think he swayed any. These people are not that fickle. They saw how well Tony played vs. how little Woo did.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

By the time these "The Jury Speaks" videos were filmed on the day of the final vote, the jury was clearly voting for Tony.

https://www.youtube.com/user/SurvivorOnCBS/search?query=jury


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## Dnamertz (Jan 30, 2005)

betts4 said:


> I see a difference between Tony and Russell. Really not that similar in playing. Russell was a bully. Tony played a strategy. Well, Russell's strategy was to bully people but he didn't really have any intelligence or plan behind it. Either time he played.


Tony bullied Cass a few time. Russel did have a strategy. It was to promise anything to get you to vote out someone he wanted out. Sounds a lot like Tony. In his 1st season his alliance was outnumbered 8 to 4, and he miraculously orchestrated the 8 to turn on each other until after 8 tribal councils, his alliance of 4 were the only 4 remanining in the game. Not to mention finding idol before clues were even revealed (a strategy he invented, as someone else mentioned), and in Heroes vs Villians, he convinced the guys on the other tribe that the women on his tribe had formed an alliance, so they actually gave him their tribe's idol (unbelievable). As someone else stated, I believe Russel just had a more bitter jury than Tony (both played great games in my opinion). Many of Russel's victims in season one were happy to join up with him and backstab one of their own, but when Russel backstabbed them it was unacceptable.

Which gets me to last night's jury. I'm glad they voted for Tony, but I can't stand the hypocisy of the 3 jury members who were up-in-arms about Tony breaking promises on his badge, wife and duaghter, and dead Father (it was Sara, Trish, and I forget the guy's name). If they are that disgusted by that behavior, then don't reward the behvior with $1mil. They can't complain to the extent they did, and then minutes later turn around and cast their vote for him (which says the behavior wasn't really bad).


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Dnamertz said:


> Which gets me to last night's jury. I'm glad they voted for Tony, but I can't stand the hypocisy of the 3 jury members who were up-in-arms about Tony breaking promises on his badge, wife and duaghter, and dead Father (it was Sara, Trish, and I forget the guy's name). If they are that disgusted by that behavior, then don't reward the behvior with $1mil. They can't complain to the extent they did, and then minutes later turn around and cast their vote for him (which says the behavior wasn't really bad).


I don't think there's anything wrong with that line of questioning. They wanted to put the screws to Tony and see how he would react. Would he blow up and start yelling and screaming? Would he remain cool under pressure and own his actions? Would he continue to lie and tell the jury what he thinks they want to hear? Frequently, the questions posed by the jury members are pointed because they want to make good TV, but not because they really are harboring a grudge against the more-deserving player.


----------



## TomK (May 22, 2001)

Such a shame that Kass' lawyer impressive lawyer skills (and she mentioned them a lot) didn't allow her to be crowned sole survivor. Oh wait, I'm joking. She was the only player this year that I disliked and I can see why the other players cared nothing for her as well. Her 'better than you and smarter than you' attitude rubbed everyone the wrong way. Well done Tony.


----------



## GTuck (May 23, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Maybe because I live in an expensive area of the country, but how much would half a million dollars (after taxes) change your life?
> 
> To hear Woo tell it, he was going to start his own business, help out his mom and dad, get engaged, buy an island, 15 cars, and maybe an airplane with what's left over


It's even worse than that. It's half a million, maybe $600,000 spread over 20 years.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I didn't dislike Kass at all. I think she made a bad move when she flipped, but I also think we would get along just fine IRL. Her Chaos Kass thing should have been a more covert operation, though.


----------



## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

GTuck said:


> It's even worse than that. It's half a million, maybe $600,000 spread over 20 years.


What? They don't just get a lump sum?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

GTuck said:


> It's even worse than that. It's half a million, maybe $600,000 spread over 20 years.


Spread over 20 years? Where are you getting that? This isn't America's Got Talent, this is Survivor.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

laria said:


> What? They don't just get a lump sum?


I've never heard that they don't get a lump sum. No reason to assume they don't.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Hatch wouldn't have gotten into so much trouble if it wasn't a lump sum. And I remember Fabio saying his money was all gone. Maybe they both could have used a multi-year payout.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> By the time these "The Jury Speaks" videos were filmed on the day of the final vote, the jury was clearly voting for Tony.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/SurvivorOnCBS/search?query=jury


Ya know, I'm sorry but I couldn't, ya know, watch Jeremiahs video with out, ya know, laughing, ya know. I counted 85 "ya know"s, ya know, in that 5.5 minute long video, ya know.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

betts4 said:


> Kass played a different game than Woo but he still made it to the end and she didn't. She only won one immunity challenge. Okay, a critical one,.


And that's one more than Tony won. I was surprised no one mentioned that. I can't make fun of Tony though, since I'm as bad at puzzles as he is. Repeating an old complaint of mine--the ability to do puzzles is one little skill that a lot of us don't have. Why stick one on the end of almost every challenge? 

The throwing away the rice girl acted like she still hadn't figured out that was stupid.

LJ is a hot dude, and he didn't play too bad. They should have him back. 

Morgan is really pretty, but still not even half as pretty as she thinks she is.

It's funny--there are always a few people who can't turn off their morals because it's just a game. I guess you have to give them props. I'd be lying at every opportunity.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Speaking of pretty, we got a glimpse of Alexis in a super hot-looking red dress when Jeff was talking to whoever was in front of her, but Jeff never actually talked to Alexis and we never got a close up to see how she looked.


----------



## 59er (Mar 27, 2008)

stellie93 said:


> LJ is a hot dude, and he didn't play too bad. They should have him back.
> 
> Morgan is really pretty, but still not even half as pretty as she thinks she is.


Agreed about LJ. As for Morgan, I don't find her pretty at all; Jefra was pretty, and Tasha was pretty, and Morgan just left me cold visually and otherwise.


----------



## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I thought Morgan was prettier on the island without all the makeup, after they'd been there a few weeks.


----------



## Dnamertz (Jan 30, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with that line of questioning. They wanted to put the screws to Tony and see how he would react. Would he blow up and start yelling and screaming? Would he remain cool under pressure and own his actions? Would he continue to lie and tell the jury what he thinks they want to hear? Frequently, the questions posed by the jury members are pointed because they want to make good TV, but not because they really are harboring a grudge against the more-deserving player.


If that wasn't real emotion coming from Trish, then she is a great actress!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Dnamertz said:


> If that wasn't real emotion coming from Trish, then she is a great actress!


Not saying it wasn't real emotion. I'm simply saying that just because a jury member asks a question or displays emotion against a finalist (and that emotion may be very real and very warranted), it doesn't mean that jury member isn't still planning to vote for that finalist.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

laria said:


> I thought Morgan was prettier on the island without all the makeup, after they'd been there a few weeks.


I wanted to root for Morgan because she's from San Jose but she was one of my least favorite Survivors ever.


----------



## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Well she was Colton's friend that he recommended for the show, so... I didn't have too high hopes for her personality.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

laria said:


> Well she was Colton's friend that he recommended for the show, so... I didn't have too high hopes for her personality.


I don't know how true that is since he's always lived in Alabama and she's always lived in California.


----------



## MNoelH (Mar 17, 2005)

I don't understand why Spencer didn't hold any begrudgement (is that a word?) towards Tony for not keeping him around when it was four going to three, but found all kinds to Woo when he took Tony to the final instead of Cass.

I do think that Tony played a better game than Woo, but the one thing Spencer (and I think Cass too) kept saying was that Woo made a serious mistake, a million dollar mistake, but Tony almost did too when he could have kept Spencer around but voted off Cass.

Or am I just confused?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Getting rid of Spencer was the right move.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

MNoelH said:


> I don't understand why Spencer didn't hold any begrudgement (is that a word?) towards Tony for not keeping him around when it was four going to three, but found all kinds to Woo when he took Tony to the final instead of Cass.
> 
> I do think that Tony played a better game than Woo, but the one thing Spencer (and I think Cass too) kept saying was that Woo made a serious mistake, a million dollar mistake, but Tony almost did too when he could have kept Spencer around but voted off Cass.
> 
> Or am I just confused?


He knew Spencer was the only one that he couldn't beat.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JFriday said:


> He knew Spencer was the only one that he couldn't beat.


Exactly. And he couldn't take the risk of Spencer winning the final immunity challenge. Spencer made a compelling argument for why Tony should keep him, but it wasn't a bad move for Tony to vote out Spencer, and I'm sure Spencer understands and respects that.


----------



## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

JFriday said:


> I don't know how true that is since he's always lived in Alabama and she's always lived in California.


I don't know. I just read in multiple casting articles before the season started that they were good friends and Colton told casting about her and also told them that if they thought he was *****y, then they needed to meet her.


----------



## Dnamertz (Jan 30, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Not saying it wasn't real emotion. I'm simply saying that just because a jury member asks a question or displays emotion against a finalist (and that emotion may be very real and very warranted), it doesn't mean that jury member isn't still planning to vote for that finalist.


I agree that they'll say things and then still vote for the person...but I still think it's hypocritical.


----------



## Jayjoans (Jan 23, 2003)

I didn't read the whole thread, but the most obvious thing about the whole reunion show was that LJ got hair plugs in the meantime.


----------



## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

Jayjoans said:


> I didn't read the whole thread, but the most obvious thing about the whole reunion show was that LJ got hair plugs in the meantime.


Well. rest assured you didn't smeek.


----------



## Haps (Nov 30, 2001)

nmiller855 said:


> I wonder if the cops out there are bothered by the fact that Tony said that swearing on his badge doesn't mean anything to him. I was offended that he swore on his wife & baby but was most offended by him swearing on his father's grave. In my eyes, that was the most disrespectful thing anyone can do


I disagree. If my son had to swear on my grave in order to help him win his family a million dollars I'd want him to go right ahead.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Finally got to watch the finale last night. Somehow I made it through the day without getting spoiled! A few thoughts:

If Spencer couldn't win, I am glad Tony did. I would have loved to see a Spencer/Tony final, but that was NEVER going to happen. They both knew they were the best players and neither would have allowed it.

Woo made such a bad decision, WOW. But, Tony also laid the groundwork for Woo, by keeping him instead of Spencer. I think that made Woo want to show loyalty to Tony. I wonder if Woo would have kept Tony, if Tony had voted for Woo at the final 4 vote (and then Spencer ended up going anyway in the tie breaker.)

I knew there was no way it would happen, but I so wanted to see Kass, Woo, and Spencer call Tony's bluff with the spHII. Tell Tony straight up, "we are all voting for you. If you are telling the truth, you alone decide who goes home. If you are lying, you go home!"

Did Jeff talk much to Kass at all? For the 3rd place finisher, she got almost no time at the reunion show. (Minor RANT. They are eating too much in to the Reunion show. I like hearing things from the Survivors. I would love to see a two hour Reunion show!)

Speaking of Kass, I was critical of her decision to flip on Sara, but I think it ended up getting her farther in the game. That being said, I think also cost her the chance of ever winning the game.

For the comparisons of Tony to Russell. I see where they come from, but I don't think Tony is that close to Russell. Tony played the game. Was he brash at times, yes! Did he lie a lot, yes! But I think he was strategic. Russell was just a hot head and a bully. For all the talk about bitter juries, I am happy that Russell Hanz will NEVER be able to say he was a Survivor winner.

For those of you who think that they rig the game. They certainly did Tony no favors with the final 3 Immunity Challenges. All of them had puzzles at that end. And Tony couldn't solve a puzzle for his life.

Overall a good season. I enjoyed that this season was in doubt most of the way.

Minor comment about next season. (Minor spoilers):



Spoiler



I am excited to see another season of Blood vs. Water. I think it add a huge dynamic to the game. Players now are having to worry about someone else's interest in addition to their own. How much do weigh that when playing their own game.

I normally hate RI, but I think was actually a good twist in the last BvW season. In changed the thinking and dynamics of voting strategies. However, it should still end after the merge.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

It never ceases to amaze me how people rationalize bad decisions, stupidity, ...etc.

Case in point was Kass trying to tell us that she is badly perceived because she's a woman. That a man playing her exact game would be called brilliant.

Kass was in the driver seat to get to the final 3 as part of a power alliance of the Brains. She instead applied a scorched Earth strategy, made questionable decisions, and ended up getting carried to the final 3 because she had no chance of winning.

Hey Kass: when a man does that, we call him a stupid a-hole.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> Speaking of Kass, I was critical of her decision to flip on Sara, but I think it ended up getting her farther in the game.


I'm not sure how it got her farther. She was already in a final 3 with Spencer and Tasha. Granted, that may have fallen apart before the end, but at the time she made the decision, she would have had more reason to believe in her current final 3 (if she were rational enough to realize that catering to Sara at that moment was just a smart move, and not a sign her partners had abandoned her) then the group she switched to (where should could most likely, based on past survivor flip outcome, expect 5th or 6th place, if that). The way I see it, she took a huge gamble to end up in the same (or possibly even worse) place she would have finished with her original alliance. And maybe in that final 3 she might even have had a chance of winning (but probably not).



> For those of you who think that they rig the game. They certainly did Tony no favors with the final 3 Immunity Challenges. All of them had puzzles at that end. And Tony couldn't solve a puzzle for his life.


Oh yeah. I was thinking the exact same thing but forgot to mention it, so thanks for bringing it up. But if I know conspiracy theories, there's always an excuse for why they didn't pan out, so I'm sure it will live on.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> She instead applied a scorched Earth strategy


Was I just overlooking the signs early on, or did her personality just do a 180 when she flipped? I don't recall anything like her arguing with everyone about everything before the flip. I actually liked her a lot up until the Sara thing started. And then I was like "who is this person".


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Was I just overlooking the signs early on, or did her personality just do a 180 when she flipped? I don't recall anything like her arguing with everyone about everything before the flip. I actually liked her a lot up until the Sara thing started. And then I was like "who is this person".


She was stupid from the beginning. There were a couple of idiotic moves early on (telling J'Tia she will be voted out, for example) that made everyone wonder why she was on the Brains tribe or if she ever watched one episode of Survivor. She had zero social abilities from the start.


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## GTuck (May 23, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Spread over 20 years? Where are you getting that? This isn't America's Got Talent, this is Survivor.


Oh, I guess I had it mixed up. I really thought it was Survivor for some reason.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

GTuck said:


> Oh, I guess I had it mixed up. I really thought it was Survivor for some reason.


We'll let it slide...this time!

/activate double secret probation mode


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## brianric (Aug 29, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> For the comparisons of Tony to Russell. I see where they come from, but I don't think Tony is that close to Russell. Tony played the game. Was he brash at times, yes! Did he lie a lot, yes! But I think he was strategic. Russell was just a hot head and a bully. For all the talk about bitter juries, I am happy that Russell Hanz will NEVER be able to say he was a Survivor winner.


I disagree. Russell lost due to bitter juries to Natalie White in Samoa, after a comeback of being down eight to four. IMO some people can't be objective to trully vote for the most deserving person to be a Survivor winner.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

brianric said:


> I disagree. Russell lost due to bitter juries to Natalie White in Samoa, after a comeback of being down eight to four. IMO some people can't be objective to trully vote for the most deserving person to be a Survivor winner.


Since it's a jury system, and that's how the game is devised and how the winner is intended to be determined, by definition the most deserving person always wins. 

I say that slightly facetiously, but really it's true. Everyone knows from the start that the point of the whole game is to receive the majority of the jury votes. That's how you win. That's the only thing that matters. That's the entire objective. You can quite easily negate your accomplishments with a poor social game, especially if you don't believe that the social aspect is an important part of the game. It most certainly is, by design. So I really have no sympathy for anyone (like Russell) that poisons the jury against themselves. That is a strategic failure in the game.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

People remember Russell making fun of people in his interviews, but don't remember that he wasn't that way to their faces. At least not in his first season. People were mad at him for breaking promises, blindsiding, and just being a liar. They felt betrayed. They didn't know about him calling everyone stupid and gloating about how great he was because he saved that for the confessionals.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

hefe said:


> Everyone knows from the start that the point of the whole game is to receive the majority of the jury votes.


This is true. But, depending on the makeup of the jury your game may be a winner or a loser. There is a lot of luck involved in Survivor. It's possible that the only path that takes you to the finals is one that will rarely be rewarded by the jury.

It's also possible that being a slug like Sandra, Natalie, or Woo is a near optimal strategy for most people. But, how many Survivor fans want that type of game to be rewarded?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fool Me Twice said:


> This is true. But, depending on the makeup of the jury your game may be a winner or a loser. There is a lot of luck involved in Survivor. It's possible that the only path that takes you to the finals is one that will rarely be rewarded by the jury.


Yup, that's a fact. And that's the dilemma that was designed into the game.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

I truely believe that Woo has never watched an episode of Survivor. I think he thought he would be rewarded for his decision.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

pmyers said:


> I truely believe that Woo has never watched an episode of Survivor. I think he thought he would be rewarded for his decision.


If he'd had Russel's jury, he likely would have been.


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## Necromancer2006 (Jan 26, 2008)

TriBruin said:


> I knew there was no way it would happen, but I so wanted to see Kass, Woo, and Spencer call Tony's bluff with the spHII. Tell Tony straight up, "we are all voting for you. If you are telling the truth, you alone decide who goes home. If you are lying, you go home!"


If only Kass wasn't such a 'goat', she could have done that - instead, she continued to prove why she was such a miserable player and character.

Her being butt-hurt over Sarah getting her way was her downfall. I bet she could have gone far had she not been so bent out of shape by the "prettier girl" the one week. They had it in the bag (Tash/Spencer/Kass) and Kass was the one that made the 2nd to worst decision in the game (behind Woo taking Tony to the end).

Tony gave Woo a million dollar life lesson - Out of this season, I'd enjoy seeing Tony, Spencer, Tasha, and yes, even Jefra back (think whatshername who got schooled (Kat??) and exposed as completely naive and came back a different player) for a second attempt at the game. Players who I don't want to see again would be everyone else - I don't know if there's a redeemable person left besides Cliff and he didn't really seem to fit (more of a gimmick).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think Morgan would be a good return player. I love her body but repulsed by her personality. IOW, perfect for TV.


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## nmiller855 (Sep 26, 2000)

I wonder why there was no fan favorite this time?


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## Dnamertz (Jan 30, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> People remember Russell making fun of people in his interviews, but don't remember that he wasn't that way to their faces. At least not in his first season. People were mad at him for breaking promises, blindsiding, and just being a liar. They felt betrayed. They didn't know about him calling everyone stupid and gloating about how great he was because he saved that for the confessionals.


Exactly. I don't recall the "bullying" people keep talking about. Unless by "bullying" they are referring to the times when he would find out someone was gunning for him, so he'd confront that person and threaten to vote them out next (which Tony did to Cass). Other than that, what bullying did Russel do?


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

I can't believe they can't do a 2-hour reunion. We can have 13 hours of a Kardashian wedding or 400 hours of Big Brother, but no time for this?


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## brianric (Aug 29, 2002)

sushikitten said:


> I can't believe they can't do a 2-hour reunion. We can have 13 hours of a Kardashian wedding or 400 hours of Big Brother, but no time for this?


This.


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## InterMurph (May 22, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> If he'd had Russel's jury, he likely would have been.


Russell's jury was created by Russell. Tony's jury was created by Tony.

The two played similar games, but with a key difference: Tony's behavior completely aliented only one jury member, while Russell's behavior alienated a majority of his jury. Twice.

After losing the second time, he even asked the winner (during the reunion) if she would give him the title of "ultimate Survivor" (or something like that). Probst explained that he was the ultimate player of whatever game he was playing, but not the ultimate Survivor.


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## JLucPicard (Jul 8, 2004)

nmiller855 said:


> I wonder why there was no fan favorite this time?


Couldn't find some corporation to sponsor it.

I don't know if Sprint was supposed to make enough money on the texting of votes to cover the prize or how that was supposed to work, but eventually the pool of those willing to pony up for something like that, I would imagine, would dry up.


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## Dnamertz (Jan 30, 2005)

InterMurph said:


> Russell's jury was created by Russell. Tony's jury was created by Tony.
> 
> The two played similar games, but with a key difference: Tony's behavior completely aliented only one jury member, while Russell's behavior alienated a majority of his jury. Twice.
> 
> After losing the second time, he even asked the winner (during the reunion) if she would give him the title of "ultimate Survivor" (or something like that). Probst explained that he was the ultimate player of whatever game he was playing, but not the ultimate Survivor.


I agree with your first statement to some extent. But, each person is different. One juror member could be so offended by someone's gameplay that they refuse to vote for them while others could be like Spencer.

Also, Probst at one point said Russel was one of the best players. He also said the same to Parvatti the other night.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> She was stupid from the beginning. There were a couple of idiotic moves early on (telling J'Tia she will be voted out, for example) that made everyone wonder why she was on the Brains tribe or if she ever watched one episode of Survivor. She had zero social abilities from the start.


I don't think that was Kass that told J'Tia they were voting her out. I think that was Garrett and Kass was thinking Garrett was a bonehead for doing it the way he did. And ultimately, they decided to vote Garrett out because of it.



JLucPicard said:


> Couldn't find some corporation to sponsor it.
> 
> I don't know if Sprint was supposed to make enough money on the texting of votes to cover the prize or how that was supposed to work, but eventually the pool of those willing to pony up for something like that, I would imagine, would dry up.


Well, considering that almost nobody pays for texts anymore on a "per-text" basis, it's not surprising that they weren't willing to pony up the funds for the extra prize.


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## spartanstew (Feb 24, 2002)

Watching the Jury address Woo and Tony, and listening to what they had to say, I had Woo winning in a landslide (7-2). But Tony won.

I'll go against the grain here and say that I would have rather Woo won.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think that was Kass that told J'Tia they were voting her out. I think that was Garrett and Kass was thinking Garrett was a bonehead for doing it the way he did. And ultimately, they decided to vote Garrett out because of it.


No, I'm pretty sure he was right about Kass telling JTia they planned on voting her out. I think what Garrett did (if I'm remembering people correctly) was he was the one that got all paranoid and started the no-two-people-can-be-alone rule trying to ensure nobody could strategize. When a few people walked off to the beach, he freaked out and went down there so they couldn't be alone and potentially plotting. That left JTia alone with the rice.


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## dfergie (Aug 27, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> No, I'm pretty sure he was right about Kass telling JTia they planned on voting her out. I think what Garrett did (if I'm remembering people correctly) was he was the one that got all paranoid and started the no-two-people-can-be-alone rule trying to ensure nobody could strategize. When a few people walked off to the beach, he freaked out and went down there so they couldn't be alone and potentially plotting. That left JTia alone with the rice.


This ... Kass told someone earlier they were going also if I remember right.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

dfergie said:


> This ... Kass told someone earlier they were going also if I remember right.


Yep. In the beginning, we thought she was naive because she was being too honest and upfront with people. When they asked her what she thought, she told them! (even if what she thought was "you suck and I'm voting you out").

As the game progressed, it became obvious that it wasn't that she was too honest. She was just mean and stupid.


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## wendiness1 (Jul 29, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> When was Woo taking Spencer ever even a consideration? I don't think it ever was, and would have been a terrible idea. Spencer was probably the only person who actually stood a chance of beating Tony in a jury vote. He would have crushed Woo.


In Spencer's mind. Spencer tried to convince Woo to chose him.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Here are a couple really good exit interviews with the Survivors:

Spencer: http://m.hitfix.com/the-fien-print/interview-spencer-bledsoe-talks-survivor-cagayan

Kass: http://m.hitfix.com/the-fien-print/interview-kass-mcquillen-talks-survivor-cagayan

The other two will be posted over the next couple days.


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## brianric (Aug 29, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Here are a couple really good exit interviews with the Survivors:
> 
> Kass: http://m.hitfix.com/the-fien-print/interview-kass-mcquillen-talks-survivor-cagayan
> 
> The other two will be posted over the next couple days.


Kass is a legend in her own mind.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I always think some of the survivors will watch themselves and be cringing with embarrassment when they see how they looked or how they were edited. Not Kass, evidently.


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## MegaHertz67 (Apr 18, 2005)

InterMurph said:


> Russell's jury was created by Russell. Tony's jury was created by Tony.
> 
> The two played similar games, but with a key difference: Tony's behavior completely aliented only one jury member, while Russell's behavior alienated a majority of his jury. Twice.


While this is absolutely true, Russell didn't know he had lost the first one when he played the second time. This was discussed here extensively that Russel went straight from Samoa to Heroes V Villains without the benefit of knowing if his strategy ultimately worked. But, that also gave him an advantage of no one in HvV knowing how he played his game.

So now we have watched Survivor for 28 seasons. That's enough of a sample size to look at some statistics:

Men have won 57% of the time. (16 men to 12 women)

There have been 15 seasons with 2 finalists, with men leading in wins 8 to 7.
Eight seasons have ended with 1 man facing 1 woman in the finals, with men leading in wins 5 to 3.
Four seasons have had 2 women in the finals, and 3 seasons have had 2 men.
The person winning the final immunity challenge has only won 40% of the time in a 2 person finals. (6 wins to 9 losses)

There have been 13 seasons with 3 finalists, with men leading in wins 8 to 5.
Six seasons have ended with 2 men facing 1 woman in the finals, with men leading in wins 4 to 2.
Five seasons have ended with 1 man facing 2 women in the finals, with men leading in wins 3 to 2.
One season (One World) has had 3 women in the finals, and 1 season (Nicaragua) has had 3 men.
The person winning the final immunity challenge has won 46% of the time in a 3 person finals. (6 wins to 7 losses)

I would have to do a deeper dive to give you more demographic analysis, but the men v women is just the easiest info to parse out on the fly. The most interesting to me is winning the final immunity doesn't carry more weight. It comes down to the immunity winner tragically missing the call on who to take to the finals.

The first four times the game was played, the last immunity winner lost the million. It wasn't until Brian took Clay to the finals in Thailand that people started to drag loyal dead-weight to the finals so they could show they were so strong that they carried this person on their coat tails.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Apparently Jefra got married just a couple days after the Surivor finale:










http://www.people.com/article/survivor-jefra-bland-marries-jared-hines


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