# Parental controls



## deshepherd

Mentioned in another thread that I thought the parental control system could become a problem ... and it looks like it may do so.

This morning started off like any other Sunday morning with no need to get up early - but 10 year-old son woke up as usual at ~7:30 and went downstairs to watch "Match of the Day" we record on TiVo each week - only this time its on the new TiVo. Couple of minutes later he's in our room saying he needs the PIN number - the TiVo has declared that as the program was originally broadcast after 10pm then it needs a PIN number to be watched before 10pm/ An hour later had the same when he moved on to watch "The football league show".

The most positive slant I can put on this is that for some reason no "rating" level is attached to the guide info for these progs so the TiVo has defaulted to a "anything after 10pm is 'adult' unless it says otherwise". However even this is a real pain if it catches mainstream programming like MOTD.

As I mentioned elsewhere there's no method via the settings to turn parental controls off.

Anyone know if V+ has this level of nanny-ing? Or is it something that has come over with the US orientated TiVo SW .... it probably works much better there as I think TV companies are required to provide ratings info for their programming so idiocy like MOTD being considered potentially adult would not occur.


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## abuelbanat

it's like this on the V+ box and it's a pain in the arse.


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## jonphil

Sky have this too, but at least made it so could be turned off to a certain amount. I'm sure the guide suggests that it could be turned off / disabled some what.
Ofcom is to blame apparantly? At least that was Sky's excuse saying ofcom forced the pin code idea.


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## Tony Hoyle

It's totally silly - as in this case the only* option being to tell the 10 year old the pin so they can watch MOTD, negating the entire pin system anyway (equally if a 13 year old wants to watch a 12 film.. these systems have one pin per box so once it's known the entire system is compromised).

IIRC Ofcom have denied that they were the reason.. it's more that Sky were getting nasty letters from daily mail readers probably. It's a great pity that VM have gone the same route. I've never been asked for a pin on the V+ - I'm not even sure what it is..


* OK not the only, but it's going to get pretty tiring after the 100th time...


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## jonphil

Hope VM see sense and make it less restrictive or the guide data starts to give proper ratings and doesn't just go by time of day.


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## cwaring

Tony Hoyle said:


> It's a great pity that VM have gone the same route.


With it being an OFCOM rule, it's not like that had a choice!

But I agree completely. It's a total PITA


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## smokie

abuelbanat said:


> it's like this on the V+ box and it's a pain in the arse.


Don't remember my V+ woroking like this - I think I manage to turn off parentl control. The Virgin TiVo manual says

A PIN is always needed to watch:
Programmes rated 12, before 8pm.
Programmes rated 15, before 9pm.
Programmes rated 18, before 10pm.
A channel youve chosen to lock.


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## Tony Hoyle

smokie said:


> Don't remember my V+ woroking like this - I think I manage to turn off parentl control. The Virgin TiVo manual says
> 
> A PIN is always needed to watch:
> Programmes rated 12, before 8pm.
> Programmes rated 15, before 9pm.
> Programmes rated 18, before 10pm.
> A channel you've chosen to lock.


That sounds more restrictive than even Sky.. let alone V+.

OFCOM only say the following (http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/broadcast/dec2010code/broadcastingcode2010.pdf)

"'Adult sex material' - material that contains images and/or language of a strong sexual nature which is broadcast for the primary purpose of sexual arousal or stimulation - must not be broadcast at any time other than between 2200 and 0530 on premium subscription services and pay per view/night services which operate with mandatory restricted access."

"Premium subscription film services may broadcast up to BBFC 15-rated films or their equivalent, at any time of day provided that mandatory restricted access is in place pre-2000 and post-0530."

"Pay per view services may broadcast up to BBFC 18-rated films or their equivalent, at any time of day provided that mandatory restricted access is in place pre-2100 and post-0530."

There is no mention of a mandatory PIN for other purposes - it's all about being able to show film content. It's not required for normal channels and certainly not for watching football! The 'extra' is entirely the choice of VM. As someone who doesn't subscribe to movies and never buys PPV it's not surprising I've never seen a pin on V+..


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## deshepherd

smokie said:


> Don't remember my V+ woroking like this - I think I manage to turn off parentl control. The Virgin TiVo manual says
> 
> A PIN is always needed to watch:
> Programmes rated 12, before 8pm.
> Programmes rated 15, before 9pm.
> Programmes rated 18, before 10pm.
> A channel youve chosen to lock.


I think the problem is probably that if a program doesn't have a rating then it will reverse map the ratings - i.e. if broadcast after 10pm then it is treated as an 18, 9-10pm treated as a 15 and 8-9pm treated as a 12.

Of course, with MOTD the amusing thing is that it is repeated on Sunday mornings so if TiVo chose that version then there would be no issue!

Googling seems to indicate its an issue with TiVo series 3 in the US but if you managed to login into that via ethernet you could disable this.

Anyway, as someone commented the result is that we've told our children the PIN number so any parental controls are now gone.


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## deshepherd

Tony Hoyle said:


> That sounds more restrictive than even Sky.. let alone V+.
> 
> OFCOM only say the following (http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/broadcast/dec2010code/broadcastingcode2010.pdf) ....
> 
> There is no mention of a mandatory PIN for other purposes - it's all about being able to show film content. It's not required for normal channels and certainly not for watching football! The 'extra' is entirely the choice of VM.


I think the issue may be that TiVo software was designed for US TV and I think TV channels/cable companies are required to provide ratings info on all programs ... thus if its now encountering a UK system where ratings are not universally provided then it may be using a "worst case scenario" system to generate the missing rating.

Finally, I have recalled that when we had the "Dossa and Joe" incident with S1 I fear I argued that it shouldn't have been allowed since it circumvented the parental control system and allowed a "post 9pm" program to be watcehd at any time :-(


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## Tony Hoyle

I'd agree in principle about dossa and joe and the whole watershed thing.. it's all about choice, and some will choose to restrict viewing at certain times for various reasons. I also value my choice not to do so (as there are no children in this house).

Hopefully it's something that can be ironed out. Either (a) get Tribune to rate everything with a notional rating, or (b) assume unrated = OK, or (c) limit it to movie channels.


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## jonphil

An option to turn it off completely would be nice. I don't have children in the house and hate being treat like one.
I'm an adult and know what I want to watch and when  Stop nannying me


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## microbe

This might explain why on the new Contract recieved through the post last week VM took the oportunity to helpfully remind me what my PIN was, even though we've never had to use it in 10+(?) years.


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## WooLLsterQ

Thw Tivo stb has a default pin of: 1 2 3 4. And it is advised to change this as soon as your box is running.


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## TCM2007

This would be as much a deal breaker for me as the price.

I DO have kids in the house, but I expect them to learn what's allowed and what isn't.


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## Tavis75

The V+HD plus box has the same annoying issue, forever getting asked for the pin to watch stuff and there's no way that I've found to turn it off completely, I was hoping this would have changed for the TiVo but sounds like it hasn't.


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## cwaring

Weird. I've never been asked for the PIN on stuff I've specifically recorded on my V+. I guess I'm not watching the wrong stuff and the wrong time


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## Hambone88

cwaring said:


> Weird. I've never been asked for the PIN on stuff I've specifically recorded on my V+. I guess I'm not watching the wrong stuff and the wrong time


Yeh i don't get asked for mine.
In the setting you can turn it off for anything that has been recorded.
And the rated programmes set to Standard.(V+ box)


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## jonphil

maybe it's a bug in Tivo, if it's working like that as planned and V+ doesn't I don't think too many people would be happy.
It's not a deal breaker for me but I'll be waiting and hoping VM see sense and allow us to turn it off or at least only restrict over 18 ratings.


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## deshepherd

jonphil said:


> maybe it's a bug in Tivo, if it's working like that as planned and V+ doesn't I don't think too many people would be happy.
> It's not a deal breaker for me but I'll be waiting and hoping VM see sense and allow us to turn it off or at least only restrict over 18 ratings.


Its probably more of a "feature" than a bug ... TiVo SW was written for the US market and I'm pretty sure that providing ratings info for all TV programming is a requirement there. Thus if it assumes all programs have a ratings value then it can (and probably in US is required to) apply the parental controls to everything .... problem comes in UK where things are a bit different and probably ratings info is only needed to flag "adult" programming and I suspect its falling back to a default standpoint of "if its after 10pm and it doesn't say its suitable for everyone then it could be 'adult' so better treat it as such just in case".

Hopefully this could just be fixed by a change in this default behaviour so that programs without a ratings flag are considered to be suitable for anyone since they don't say that they are not (which is, from what others have said, seems to be the UK way of handling this)


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## Brangdon

Insofar as VM are taking feedback from us early adopters, this sounds like the most serious issue so far. I live alone, there are no children in my house and none ever visit. I don't mind if other people want to turn on parental controls, or even if they are on by default, but they shouldn't be forced upon those who don't want or need them.


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## Pine Cladding

I remember this being an issue before on the S1 forum when the code was required to record films, which proved difficult when the TiVo tried to record unattended - The VM/NTL/Blueyonder/CW box would just sit waiting for an input and the TiVo would record nothing. Forced me to cancel the movie channels.


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## Steve5424

Tavis75 said:


> The V+HD plus box has the same annoying issue, forever getting asked for the pin to watch stuff and there's no way that I've found to turn it off completely, I was hoping this would have changed for the TiVo but sounds like it hasn't.


It's down to ofcom unfortunately so it has to be there. I do agree though that we should be able to disable it if we want.

That's what annoys me about Sky movies as well.


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## TCM2007

"It's OFCOM" seems to be a myth. Ofcom insist that parental control mechanisms exist, not that they are on all the time.


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## big_dirk

Carl has reported this to vm.


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## cwaring

^ on more than one occasion, unfortuntely 

(You must be following me on Twitter as that's the only place I've mentioned it today. BUSTED! )


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## scgf

I use a Logitech Harmony remote and what I have done is create a custom button macro which sends my PIN followed by an 'OK'. At least all I need to do now is press one button whenever I am asked for my PIN. No solution for those of you who want to use the parental controls, but great for the rest of us who don't!


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## cwaring

^ I like it! Thanks for the idea  (Although I bet I can't do that with my new 600 )


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## Queb

Can see this winding me up when I get my box, no kids here either !


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## jonphil

Queb said:


> Can see this winding me up when I get my box, no kids here either !


me too. Virgin need to give us an option to turn it off / alter the settings instead of using the defaults.

How about if you do have children and use the pin code protection but go out for the night and have to tell the babysitter the code just to be able to watch TV, but you also wouldn't want them to run riot on the PPV channels running up a huge bill?


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## AMc

jonphil said:


> How about if you do have children and use the pin code protection but go out for the night and have to tell the babysitter the code just to be able to watch TV, but you also wouldn't want them to run riot on the PPV channels running up a huge bill?


You'd trust them to look after your kids but not with you PPV account - really?


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## jonphil

AMc said:


> You'd trust them to look after your kids but not with you PPV account - really?


Don't have kids  was considering people who may.


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## deshepherd

jonphil said:


> How about if you do have children and use the pin code protection but go out for the night and have to tell the babysitter the code just to be able to watch TV, but you also wouldn't want them to run riot on the PPV channels running up a huge bill?


That wouldn't be a problem .... the PIN number is only need when programs are timeshifted so that it is beign watched before its particular "watershed" or if a channel (or if watching via VoD/Catch-up) a program is being broadcast outside its watershed hours.

I.e. if its 10pm then you can watch anything without a PIN as all the little dears are expected to be tucked up in bed by then. The problem is that if you record a post 10pm program and someone wants to view it at 8am then its possible that it could be a 10-year-old in danger of being corrupted by violent behaviour/foul language/disrespect of authority/same sex hugging and kissing (i.e. an average edition of match of the day)


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## Wizard

OK, this parental control malarky is becoming very annoying now. For the past two evenings my daughter has been watching CBeebies on delayed play. Come 7pm, exactly when the channel goes off air, the TiVo has suddenly jumped forward to display Live TV, prompted for the PIN number AND lost the live buffer  Cue much wailing from daughter who loves "In The Night Garden" and has now missed the end of it.

In fact the only time I have actually been prompted for the PIN is on CBeebies and during the daytime at that 

I can kind of understand the reasoning for the controls, just, but to be unable to turn them off is really annoying, and why does it prompt for the PIN on an off air channel


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## The Wishlist

Tavis75 said:


> The V+HD plus box has the same annoying issue, forever getting asked for the pin to watch stuff and there's no way that I've found to turn it off completely, I was hoping this would have changed for the TiVo but sounds like it hasn't.


I can't remember the last time my V+ HD asked me for a PIN, and some of the stuff I've got on series links is shown after 10pm.

If my future TiVo starts asking me for PINs all the time, that's gonna drive me up the wall and probably into orbit.


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## mikerr

It can be be turned off on the V+ - true at least on my older SA V+ (TV Drive).

Hope a sw update gives us this option, as it's pretty annoying.


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## The Wishlist

mikerr said:


> It can be be turned off on the V+ - true at least on my older SA V+ (TV Drive).
> 
> Hope a sw update gives us this option, as it's pretty annoying.


I've got mine set to 'Standard' and I'm free of the 'PIN nagging'.

Hopefully VM will put a fix for that among the TiVo's '3rd tuner' software update.


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## Ianl

is it correct that the pin for parental control is the same pin for buying on demand ie adult channels per night or wrestling PPV etc.

so you give your teenager the pin code so they can watch tv during the day and at the end of the month get a large bill for porn, films, wrestling etc


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## jonphil

Ianl said:


> is it correct that the pin for parental control is the same pin for buying on demand ie adult channels per night or wrestling PPV etc.
> 
> so you give your teenager the pin code so they can watch tv during the day and at the end of the month get a large bill for porn, films, wrestling etc


Yes it's one pin. So that's the point, you should be able to turn the pin off for age ratings and not be based purely on time.

For example I tried to watch 12 rated Gadget show before 8pm last night and it prompted me for the pin. Erm ok it wouldn't take a genius to work out that parents will finish up giving out the pin to teenagers in the house and allow them free run off every channel.


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## Tavis75

I'm guessing there must be differences in the way that different models of the V+ HD box handle the pin, as I turned all the parental control options on mine down to the minimum but still get asked for the pin very regularly, as does my boss, who got V+ HD a few weeks after me.

Sadly that would suggest that it's intended to work the way it does and that it won't change for the TiVo, though I really wish they would give us the option to turn it off completely!


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## RichardJH

Ianl said:


> is it correct that the pin for parental control is the same pin for buying on demand ie adult channels per night or wrestling PPV etc.
> 
> so you give your teenager the pin code so they can watch tv during the day and at the end of the month get a large bill for porn, films, wrestling etc


I believe that you can set a different PIN for PPV. Saw it last night while browsing around on the new toy.

Not at home at the moment. When I get home I will find it again and post back


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## deshepherd

RichardJH said:


> I believe that you can set a different PIN for PPV. Saw it last night while browsing around on the new toy.
> 
> Not at home at the moment. When I get home I will find it again and post back


No, I think the option is to enable/disable the request for a PIN before accessing anything that needs payment.

So ... you have the freedom to remove protection from your wallet but not from your eyes!


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## RichardJH

deshepherd said:


> No, I think the option is to enable/disable the request for a PIN before accessing anything that needs payment.
> 
> So ... you have the freedom to remove protection from your wallet but not from your eyes!


Yes you are correct have just tried it and when in settings you have 2 options Parental Controls and Purchase controls and both have a sub menu to change PIN so I thought what a good idea to have 2 PIN's BUT having just played around if you change the PIN in one place it also changes it in the other :down:


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