# Series 3 Tivo



## magistral (Mar 9, 2004)

I love my Tivo but I'd love this one even more !!

Pity they'll never appear in UK

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/hands-on-with-the-tivo-series3/

mike


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## BaggieBoy (Dec 4, 2000)

Careful...posting links to pornographic pictures could get you banned!


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Dribble bribble....want one....$799 + subs but I'd still buy one!


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## Couchy (Jun 19, 2006)

I think.....no I am sure, I am in love.


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## manolan (Feb 13, 2001)

Couchy said:


> I think.....no I am sure, I am in love.


Indeed. And it even has a front panel display to silence all the critics of the earlier models!


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## manolan (Feb 13, 2001)

No sooner had I written that than this e-mail arrived from Ziff-Davis. Haven't read it yet - have to go home some time...

Series III TiVo - It's Finally Here, and We've Got It

I'm an unabashed TiVo promoter. I love the little things -
at one point earlier this year I had four of 'em going in my
house simultaneously. One of 'em just bit the dust (after 
5 years), but the rest are going strong. As you can imagine, 
I was excited to actually touch, feel and use the new Series 
III TiVo. So was Robert Heron, our HDTV analyst, and he put 
together a whopper of a package, reviewing the new device. 
It's not perfect, but with cable card, HDTV support, and 
extendability, it's a great package. Our review details how
it worked, and we've got tons of pictures of menus and other 
elements of the new TiVo - and a video of the box in action!

Series III TiVo Review: 
http://ct.eletters.whatsnewnow.com/rd/cts?d=181-725-1-385-89851-39904-0-0-0-1
View the Video: 
http://ct.eletters.whatsnewnow.com/rd/cts?d=181-725-1-385-89851-39907-0-0-0-1


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

I actually find it reassuring that both the basic Tivo menu design and the actual physical machine chassis are really little changed from the 6 year old S1 unit I have here. And only 250Gb drive space capacity compared to the 500Gb (2 x 250Gb) I have here.

If you read the comments most US customers generally seem to think the unit is overpriced for what it is at 800USD and lacking features available on other DVRs and previous generation Tivo models.

It is however disappointing that the UK pay multi channel tv market is so anti competitive and completely dominated by only 2 major players (Sky and NTL/Telewest) that basically all third party interesting box designs are kept out and manufacturers have to produce boxes to Sky and NTL/Telwests standard boring spec designed to minimise the amount of knowledge required by Sky/NTL customer service staff.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

That peanut is getting me slightly aroused.. I wonder if it will work with the S1???. I would sell my granny to get one...


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## Cynicize (Mar 14, 2005)

The only gripe I have with the S3 is lack of a DVD burner. The one on my S2 is un-live-without-able. Pity too, cause I almost thought about buying this new box.


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## Glen (May 9, 2004)




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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Hmmmm,

But unless you actually want to shell out for Sky's £40+ per month HDTV subscription charges and for a £1500 LCD television how much more can this unit actually do than a uk S1 Tivo with a Cachecard 512MB of RAM and large upgraded hard drive capacity.

As for the remote (which otherwise looks almost identical to our own Peanut) having lighty up buttons on it when most of us watch television with at least one light in the room on all I can say is that some of you people are very easily impressed by anything which says it is new.....................................................


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## TTL32 (Aug 11, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Hmmmm,
> 
> But unless you actually want to shell out for Sky's £40+ per month HDTV subscription charges and for a £1500 LCD television how much more can this unit actually do than a uk S1 Tivo with a Cachecard 512MB of RAM and large upgraded hard drive capacity.


Ahh, but some of us already have SKY+ and an HD plasma but can't bring ourselves to pay for another crappy SKY device...


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

I know the black US remotes work with the UK TiVos. Would these new programable ones do the same?

T


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

terryeden said:


> Would these new programable ones do the same?


You only want one 'cos it's shiny.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> how much more can this unit actually do than a uk S1 Tivo with a Cachecard 512MB of RAM and large upgraded hard drive capacity....all I can say is that some of you people are very easily impressed by anything which says it is new


It seems to be able to record two things at once...which would be very nice.
Obviously with 2 Tivos and 2 cable boxes I could achieve the same thing and probably in the same price bracket.
Sorry but I like the idea of something I already love but better!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

AMc said:


> It seems to be able to record two things at once...which would be very nice.
> 
> Obviously with 2 Tivos and 2 cable boxes I could achieve the same thing and probably in the same price bracket. Sorry but I like the idea of something I already love but better!


Ah yes you highlight the one very serious defect in current Tivo S1 design - namely the single tuner. Now that does need to be addressed.

Basically I find the Tivo works absolutely fine for just me in my one person home but in a multi person situation where the 5 year old is watching Nick Junior and the Tivo says it wants to record something over on Eurosport then all hell breaks lose if it changes channel on the five year old from the one he is watching live.

Actually I think three tuners is really the optimum. One that is only ever used to watch live tv and two others than can be used to record up to two other programs in addition to the one being watched live at the same time.

The only thing is that even without being able to handle recording clashes on my Tivo S1 I still never find the time to get round to watching all the important programs that my Tivo has recorded that I really ought to find the time to watch later on..............


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Actually I think three tuners is really the optimum. One that is only ever used to watch live tv and two others than can be used to record up to two other programs in addition to the one being watched live at the same time.


Interesting. That's precisecly how Telewest's TVDrive works


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Interesting. That's precisecly how Telewest's TVDrive works


Its how a whole lot of PVRs based on that particular hardware platform are going to work isn't it?

Shame that there are no Wishlists and that the Telewest equivalent of a Season Pass is as unreliable as Sky's from what I can understand.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

cwaring said:


> Interesting. That's precisecly how Telewest's TVDrive works


Judging by reading posts in the new Series 3 forum I think there's a mass of US TiVo users who are moving from the US equivalent of the TV Drive (Scientific Atlanta 8300?) and SkyHD (NDS HR10?) to the series 3!
Despite the extra tuner of the Scientific Atlanta and much lower costs, the lack of TiVo's features and reliability means there's a ready market for them over there!


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> ...Telewest equivalent of a Season Pass is as unreliable as Sky's from what I can understand.


Actually, I didn't have much of a problem with them.

@cyril. Yes, it's based on that model.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Actually, I didn't have much of a problem with them.


You mean they do pick up the next run of a series after a several month break unlike Sky+? Or is it too early to tell as yet?

Presumably no Wishlists or Suggestions though?


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## BrianHughes (Jan 21, 2001)

Damn! Now I'm going to have to emigrate to the States to get one of these. A pity - I like it here and I'm sort of going to miss the dog, the kids and the wife.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> You mean they do pick up the next run of a series after a several month break unlike Sky+? Or is it too early to tell as yet?


Too early.



> Presumably no Wishlists or Suggestions though?


Nope.

Oh, and LOL @ BrianHughes


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

ericd121 said:


> You only want one 'cos it's shiny.


I do crave th'shine.....


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## bradleyem (May 23, 2002)

want... one...

the cablecard idea is fantastic. OFCOM, are you paying attention??!?!


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Ah yes you highlight the one very serious defect in current Tivo S1 design - namely the single tuner. Now that does need to be addressed.
> 
> Basically I find the Tivo works absolutely fine for just me in my one person home but in a multi person situation where the 5 year old is watching Nick Junior and the Tivo says it wants to record something over on Eurosport then all hell breaks lose if it changes channel on the five year old from the one he is watching live.


I think that twin tuners is also fine in a single person home. the problem comes with a multi person home.

I have Tivo with its own SKY box on Multiroom, and SKY+ with its twin tuner trickery. The big downfall with SKY+ is that in a multiperson home you can record more than it is possible to watch. Yes it has twin tuners but when you play back a recording you lose the abiliy to watch any live program and because you can only play back one recording at once you can fill the disk twice as fast as you can empty it 



> Actually I think three tuners is really the optimum. One that is only ever used to watch live tv and two others than can be used to record up to two other programs in addition to the one being watched live at the same time.


I sort of have three tuners anyway as I have another Digibox without a card that can get all the free stuff. Personally I wish I had never bought SKY+, should have bought another TiVo and standard Digibox as I am now effectively trapped by $KY.

My current package includes the movies which gives me SKY+ "for free". A couple of months ago I looked at options for reducing how much I was paying and realised that I am caught by the short and curlies 

With 2 sky boxes ( or cable receivers) and 2 Tivos, you can have 4 people each viewing something different, 2 live and 2 recordings.

The "ideal" situation would be a central unit with huge storage that could record upto 4 programs at once and smaller low cost playback only machines that will allow multiple users to view what they want when they want.

BTW. Discovered a new "feature" on SKY+ the other day.... *Partial Pause*

Came into the room and SWMBO had paused SKY+ whilst on the phone. This was indicated by the huge PAUSE logo in the bottom left corner and the lack of audio. This new "feature" had the video still playing in the background!!! Couldnt repeat this and of course, it hadnt saved anything. Bloody heap of C***


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

katman said:


> Personally I wish I had never bought SKY+, should have bought another TiVo and standard Digibox as I am now effectively trapped by $KY.
> 
> My current package includes the movies which gives me SKY+ "for free". A couple of months ago I looked at options for reducing how much I was paying and realised that I am caught by the short and curlies


Surely the most worthwhile part of SkyMultiRoom was getting them to put in LNBs and splitters and extra wiring that let you watch different things on different boxes in different rooms at once?

Surely after 12 months you can give Sky notice on the Sky+ and downgrade them to running only as standard boxes. Or flog the Sky+ boxes on Ebay and replace them with Freeview Digiboxes where you can record what you want for no extra monthly fee? As you have highlighted you can't actually watch all that you record so surely the answer is not to record as much? Clearly things are heading the central server route but I bet there will be all sorts of horrendous copyright control by then for those solution that means you can't hang on to those programs for more than say 7 or 14 days and if you don't watch them they disappear.

I tried out a Sky+ at a Currys Superstore not long after they came out and that experience (I hated the list of recorded programs being merged/hidden within the EPG) combined with my longstanding allergy to ongoing monthly subscriptions of any kind discouraged me from buying (anyhow we don't have the required wiring on this communal satellite aerial system for Sky+ and gettin it installed would cost me a further 200 quid one off as Sky don't touch communal systems). There was a rumour a while back that Sky would stop charging a sub to use Sky+ but I see it hasn't happened despite the mushrooming sales of Freeview PVRs. Seems that like Easyjet Sky find there are a whole bunch of people out there who will buy a massively over promoted and hyped brand no matter how poor quality or poor value the actual product?


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## Furball (Dec 6, 2001)

magistral said:


> I love my Tivo but I'd love this one even more !!
> 
> Pity they'll never appear in UK
> 
> ...


Never say NEVER 

TiVo is still here remember , they are still supply data here, they still updated the channels for us on the NTL change over, so I wouldnt rule it out totally.

They are still here, just dozing I think and waiting for the whole PVR market to settle down, once it has then I recon they will wake up an launch a real killer machine in the UK that will knock all the others for six.

They have after all got a ready built advertising agency .......US 

I recon I could have sold 1000's of the series one but due to the fact TiVo to the untrained looks to be a dead animal in the UK people are very warey  
When they return to the UK with a new machine I recon it will be a walk over for them 

Fur


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Only if they market it right


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## Pugwash (May 23, 2003)

I think right now, the thing that would most satisfy me would be some software I could buy from TiVo to install on a PC as a complete replacement operating system. 

I built a media centre PC with LCD display, glowing buttons on the remote, twin freeview tuners, large and expandable hard drive capacity. The only thing that lets it down is the crappy Windows MC 05 with it's awkward navigation and how it keeps on recording repeats when I've told it not to!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Pugwash said:


> I think right now, the thing that would most satisfy me would be some software I could buy from TiVo to install on a PC as a complete replacement operating system.
> 
> I built a media centre PC with LCD display, glowing buttons on the remote, twin freeview tuners, large and expandable hard drive capacity. The only thing that lets it down is the crappy Windows MC 05 with it's awkward navigation and how it keeps on recording repeats when I've told it not to!


It does seem to be one of Tivo's current blindspots that they only seem to actually think of selling their technology in dedicated tv boxes or partner cable tv company boxes with all the startup manufacturing and marketing costs that then make it difficult to enter a new territory.

Having said that Pugwash I think you are perhaps ahead of your time and that down the road the Microsoft operating system will have evolved to a state where there is a Tivo plug in option and it will do everything you would like. However I also sort of have this terrible feeling that down the road the whole conventional television program as we now know it may also begin to die and be replaced by some sort of interactive multimedia experience. 

For the time being its good to know that there's still nothing out there that can properly outshine the tv recording features of my 6 year old Tivo box.


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## Furball (Dec 6, 2001)

cwaring said:


> Only if they market it right


I dont know if they will need to really worry toooo much about how its marketed, people on the whole are very much more PVR aware now, with the freeview and $ky+ and media center etc and as Pugwash says Windoze Media Center sucks , half of which is down to Windoze fantastic ability to crash at the most critical moments  when was the last time your TiVo crashed ???

Pete I really do hope that mirco$oft dosnt come up with a TiVo plugin to be honest, as that I feel wont do TiVo any favours, why put cracking software onto a (insert your own swear word) opperating system 

Fur


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Furball said:


> Pete I really do hope that mirco$oft dosnt come up with a TiVo plugin to be honest, as that I feel wont do TiVo any favours, why put cracking software onto a (insert your own swear word) opperating system


I was really thinking of when Windows Vista hits the streets as I get the impression that might actually at last be a seriously robust and stable Microsoft operating system, even if not quite as stable as super robust put unfortunately feature poor Linux.


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## Furball (Dec 6, 2001)

Not sure Feature poor is a word I would use, may be not so friendly interface, and certainly you have to be a bit geeky to work your way round it  

Certainly from the small amount of work I've done with it, it seems that its a) miles ahead of what windoze can offer and b) a hell of a lot more secure and C) so stable that I have a machine here thats been running a multitude of apps and its been doing that for over a year and never missed a beat  

Dont get me wrong I still prefer the windoze environment just dont like the way it has this nasty habit of falling over just when I dont want it to, then being totally non recoverable!!!!!! Linux apps do fall over but I dont think I've ever had one take the machines OS with it  

Fur


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Furball said:


> Dont get me wrong I still prefer the windoze environment just dont like the way it has this nasty habit of falling over just when I dont want it to, then being totally non recoverable!!!!!! Linux apps do fall over but I dont think I've ever had one take the machines OS with it


Yes I suppose it was the lack of user friendliness of the Linux environment I was really referring to.

Even without a Cachecard and Tivoweb and a large hard disk size there are ways to crash a Tivo with really excessive Wishlist requests. However with Tivoweb running some very heavy duty apps like Tracker on its fairly puny processor while it is also recording it can now reboot in a variety of circumstances (albeit still comparatively rare and a few days apart). But it always reboots into a state where everything then carries on running and my tv programs keep on recording. Whereas Windows has always had a nasty habit of being able to degenerate into a state where the machine simply hangs but does not realise it and does not reboot itself into a state where normally scheduled activities can then continue.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Surely the most worthwhile part of SkyMultiRoom was getting them to put in LNBs and splitters and extra wiring that let you watch different things on different boxes in different rooms at once?


Actually I ran all the cables myself rather than let a SKY destroyer loose on my house. Prior to getting SKY Digital I had a 1m dish with 2 Dual LNB's pointing at Astra 19.2deg and Hotbird 13deg. I could watch anything from either satellite in any room, the only rrestriction being that I could only get one SKY encrypted channel as I only had one card.



> Surely after 12 months you can give Sky notice on the Sky+ and downgrade them to running only as standard boxes. Or flog the Sky+ boxes on Ebay and replace them with Freeview Digiboxes where you can record what you want for no extra monthly fee? As you have highlighted you can't actually watch all that you record so surely the answer is not to record as much?


The point I was making about multiple recording with single playback is that with several people in the house it becomes impossible to watch all that has been recorded.

*I* could watch everything that *I* record.

The problem is that

*Everyone* cant watch all that has been recorded.

Sadly Freeview isnt an option. I do have several freeview boxes but the chanels I watch the most are Discovery/NatGeo etc and that isnt on Freeview other than limited TopupTV. Also freeview reception here is "iffy" at the best of times. We are officially in a "no reception area" and even normal terrestrial suffers from a huge concrete shopping centre in line of sight.


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## Skookum (Oct 21, 2004)

I want a series 3 TiVo, plain and simple.

Now, having a lovely LCD TV, I am beginning to notice the pixelation of my TiVo, which means a trip to the Sky+ I'm afraid - possibly Sky+HD

But.... if a series 3 TiVo were available, I'd go out this afternoon to buy one, regardless of the cost.

I don't think TiVo quite appreciate how much we love these boxes - I could have sold dozens of them over the years, and in fact have sourced at least a dozen from eBay for friends who were amazed by my TiVo.

'Pause Live TV' - oh yeah - that will sell! Whoever thought up that advertising campaign should have been shot.

Better still, give all the Dixons salesmen one to take home with them for two weeks to try out - if they liked it, they could buy it off TiVo at half price - I'd bet they wouldn't have had a single one returned, and they would have instantly developed a veritable army of devotees whose job it was to sell the damn box to people who didn't realise they needed it.

but instead....

'Pause Live TV'

Yeah, right - I know I'm preaching to the converted, but I honestly can't recall the last time I watched Live TV, let alone paused it - that isn't what TiVo is for.

It's a real shame - TiVo is the only piece of consumer electronics that I haven't felt guilty about spending money on - it is the only piece of consumer electronics that I really couldn't live without. It is the easiest piece of kit to use - even my three year old knows how to watch Finding Nemo when he is allowed to.

I'm just annoyed - really annoyed that the only alternative to my Series 1 TiVo is Sky+


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Skookum said:


> Better still, give all the Dixons salesmen one to take home with them for two weeks to try out - if they liked it, they could buy it off TiVo at half price - I'd bet they wouldn't have had a single one returned, and they would have instantly developed a veritable army of devotees whose job it was to sell the damn box to people who didn't realise they needed it.


You are so right on this. I have always thought not having a general Try With No Obligation for 28 Days option (perhaps subject to £400 refundable deposit on your credit card to put off the real time wasters with no money and no intention of ever actually buying) was Tivo's biggest mistake.

Also the box should have had an exciting front display panel showing channel being recorded, names of latest shows available etc. Yes I know it isn't really necessary and drives up the cost of production but this kind of stuff markets the product and makes people impulse buy.

But did they enter into any deals with OnDigital or NTL or Teleworst to market it to their customers at a time when they had no PVRs of their own. Did they hell.

Also I would have let the Dixons/Currys salesmen have one without making them pay up for at least 6 months. By that time they would have been hooked for life.

Just a huge missed opportunity.


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## andyjenkins (Jul 29, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> You are so right on this. I have always thought not having a general Try With No Obligation for 28 Days option (perhaps subject to £400 refundable deposit on your credit card to put off the real time wasters with no money and no intention of ever actually buying) was Tivo's biggest mistake.


Really? So I presume by that analogy then, that when DVD players launched, they failed to take off because there was no "Try With No Obligation" option? And can we expect the same with HDDVD players launching soon ? Oh - and I guess the PS3 will flunk as well ?

That was not the cause of TiVo not taking off in the UK. The technology was new, and the concept was something akin to computers - taking about hard drives etc etc. The technology was too new to make it into the homes of those who would benefit.

Now Sky have done the job properly there's possibly a chance of a return. "Like Sky+ ... only better". Personally, I'd think the ASA might have something to say about that though


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

andyjenkins said:


> Really? So I presume by that analogy then, that when DVD players launched, they failed to take off because there was no "Try With No Obligation" option? And can we expect the same with HDDVD players launching soon ? Oh - and I guess the PS3 will flunk as well.


Okay, smart-arse. What does a DVD recorder do? Like VCR only better quality. What does a PS3 do? Like a PS/2 only better. Now, without knowing anything about it, what does a Tivo do? The name doesn't give anything away!

My point is that you _know_ what a DVD Recorder does and you can probably guess what a PS3 will do. However, at the time (and even now) it is very difficult to describe what a Tivo does and explain the benefits, with only words.

"It records TV shows"
"Really. My VCR can do that and it's 20 years old"

So, rather than trying to explain it, if you sit someone in-front of a Tivo and _show them_, or in this case give them one to play with for a month, they'll soon see what it does and how indespensible it is.

That's how I talked my parents into buying one, anyway


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## andyjenkins (Jul 29, 2001)

cwaring said:


> Okay, smart-arse. What does a DVD recorder do? Like VCR only better quality. What does a PS3 do? Like a PS/2 only better. Now, without knowing anything about it, what does a Tivo do? The name doesn't give anything away!


DVD meant nothing to a generation growing up with VHS and/or Betamax. So what was a DVD player to those with VCR's? You had to explain what it was. Honestly, I don't know *why* DVD players took off if something like TiVo did not. Surely if DVD Recorders are a better version of VCRs (and that is generally accepted and the reason for there popularity), then why did'nt TiVo take off ? You could juse use the same analogy surely. To say that PVR's did'nt take off is not true I guess - they were just delayed until someone with money pushed the concept down everyones neck.



> My point is that you _know_ what a DVD Recorder does and you can probably guess what a PS3 will do. However, at the time (and even now) it is very difficult to describe what a Tivo does and explain the benefits, with only words.
> 
> "It records TV shows"
> "Really. My VCR can do that and it's 20 years old"


Might I suggest you alter that too "It records TV shows without a tape/disc, and alows instant access to all those programmes". It does'nt cover 10% of TiVo's or any generic PVRs capability I agree though. If you only advertised TiVo as something that could "record TV shows" - no wonder TiVo did'nt take off. Maybe your the one we should be linching 



> So, rather than trying to explain it, if you sit someone in-front of a Tivo and _show them_, or in this case give them one to play with for a month, they'll soon see what it does and how indespensible it is.
> 
> That's how I talked my parents into buying one, anyway


OK - I can see your point - but it will never happen (although I'll make no promises that I'll eat my hat if it does - TCF has an archive !!) TiVo is indispenble and I agree that anyone using the system for a couple of days would want to buy one - but I do not see that as being the way forward. Other new technology succeeds without such a marketing activity.

Honestly .. I just think TiVo was ahead of it's time and the UK generation was not ready for it. Now however, thanks to Sky .. TiVo could really make some bucks I think.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

What we need is another "shopping channel" on SKY.... BUT... one that is devoted to demostrating Tivo and explaining all the features. There is simply no way that a page in a newspaper or a 30 second TV advert could begin to describe what TiVo is capable of.

As has been suggested earlier, combine the intensive demonstration with a 28 or 30 day money back offer and I believe it would take off big time.

People said that DVD players wouldnt take off because you couldnt record on them but I always pointed out that you couldnt record on a CD Player but people were buying millions of CD's.

I first "saw" a Tivo in Dixons when they were full price but they couldnt demonstrate what it could do.

I bought one when the £99 clearout was happening at Powerhouse after hearing people raving about them.

I first saw what Tivo was capable of when I got home and connected it up. If I had seen a proper demo in Dixons I would have paid the full price there and then


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

andyjenkins said:


> DVD meant nothing to a generation growing up with VHS and/or Betamax.


Oh I don't know. I'm part of that generation and I "got" DVDs straight away.



> Honestly, I don't know *why* DVD players took off if something like TiVo did not. Surely if DVD Recorders are a better version of VCRs (and that is generally accepted and the reason for there popularity), then why did'nt TiVo take off ?


Well for a start there's no buttons on the front  At least with a DVD recorder there's usually a big "RECORD" button on the fron that would give you a clue as to what it did 



> Maybe your the one we should be linching


Huh? It was nothing to do with me, Guv. Honesr! 



> OK - I can see your point - but it will never happen (although I'll make no promises that I'll eat my hat if it does - TCF has an archive !!)


As one member - mr tickle, IIRC - found to his cost some time ago


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## pauljs (Feb 11, 2001)

To get successful in the UK TiVo needed to get integrated with Sky or DTT. They had a chance with Sky but for a reason that could only be selfish or financial Sky plumped for their own Sky + offering.

Maybe we could have a series 3 Sky HD TiVo


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## mjk (Mar 13, 2002)

Pugwash said:


> I think right now, the thing that would most satisfy me would be some software I could buy from TiVo to install on a PC as a complete replacement operating system.
> 
> I built a media centre PC with LCD display, glowing buttons on the remote, twin freeview tuners, large and expandable hard drive capacity. The only thing that lets it down is the crappy Windows MC 05 with it's awkward navigation and how it keeps on recording repeats when I've told it not to!


I also run Media Center as while it is OK, the lack of the TiVo UI is a grave disappointment.

I think that a TiVo software package for the PC platform would be a great idea. Not running under Windows, though that might be attractive to some, but containing the Linux kernel as well so that the system boots up in the same way as a TiVo.

The nice thing about it is the potential for additional customization by adding additinal tuners in the same way that other equivalent packages allow. (I read that Modis Portal has been successfully tested with 12 tuners!)

The problem idea of add-ons for Windows is that Media Center can always undercut the commercial ones, and I have found the open source equivalents to be a little idiosyncratic.

The nice thing about a native PC solution is that as the Series 1 demonstrates, you don't need a state-of -the-art fast system as you tend to do with Windows. Now some of that was due to dedicated hardware design, so I doubt you could ever get down to the level that we see in the S1, but I suspect that there could be a solution that worked well on mid-spec PCs and would give you something to do with an old system when next it becomes time to upgrade. There might also be an option (or need) for a hardware add-on card to provide some of the special functions of the dedicaed hardware, such as MPEG decoding for payback.

I'd love to see this idea pursued, but I'm not holding my breath. I fear it is up there with Sky being compelled to support CAMs! Unlikely to happen while they are part of the same company that owns The Sun!!


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

mjk said:


> I think that a TiVo software package for the PC platform would be a great idea. Not running under Windows, though that might be attractive to some, but containing the Linux kernel as well so that the system boots up in the same way as a TiVo.


http://MythTV.org/

It's not quite as user friendly as TiVo - and it takes some work to get it to run, but you can add as many DVB cards as you like for multiple tuners and hack it until the cows come home.

I'm wondering.... Does it count as service theft to take TiVo guide data that one is paying for (via lifetime or monthly) and use it on another (non-TiVo) device...?


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

terryeden said:


> I'm wondering.... Does it count as service theft to take TiVo guide data that one is paying for (via lifetime or monthly) and use it on another (non-TiVo) device...?


An interesting moral, if not legal, dilemma. I wasn't aware you could extract the EPG data in the first place


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

cwaring said:


> An interesting moral, if not legal, dilemma. I wasn't aware you could extract the EPG data in the first place


Well, if TiVo web can read it - it must be there. Either in a database or in a slice file.

It wouldn't be impossible to make a module like HiGuide output XML in a format that any other TV listings program could read.

T


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

terryeden said:


> Well, if TiVo web can read it - it must be there. Either in a database or in a slice file.


A good point


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## mjk (Mar 13, 2002)

terryeden said:


> Well, if TiVo web can read it - it must be there. Either in a database or in a slice file.
> 
> It wouldn't be impossible to make a module like HiGuide output XML in a format that any other TV listings program could read.
> 
> T


More to the point, you could also extract things like the ToDo list and use the data to set up events on MythTv, Media Portal, GB-PVR, or the system of your choice. I would be prepared to argue that it isn't service theft as you need to have a TiVo for it to actually work, and you are just using it to program another recorder, rather like the hack that allows you to sync 2 TiVos to resolve conflicts.

Close examination of the license might reveal that there is a restriction to only use the data on your TiVo, but I would be impressed if anyone had thought of this ahead of time.

Extracting the guide data and using it to provide a service to others would, IMHO, be a no-no.

Using your TiVo to control another recorder might be eccentric, but it would allow you to benefit from Season Passes and Wishlists, etc. It might make sense if the other recorder offered greater quality, such as, for example, recording HD. Using your TiVo to control your Sky+ HD box has a rather delicious irony, and might be quite easy, given that you can apparently set recordings using your mobile phone!


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## algordon (Apr 1, 2004)

Very interesting all this stuff about the series 3 but I would take bets that we have seen the last of Tivo here. I read something recently possibly on Digital Spy that Tivo has been operating in the red for the last couple of years.

Remember it's a pretty small market here compared to the US. Also, when Tivo first started here, they had only one competitor - Sky - whereas now they have loads. I love Tivo as much as the next member but many of the products made by Tivo's competition offer a lot of the same facilities. Also, why now? Tivo's had I think three maybe four years to come back so what would make them think now was the time?

Yes, we could all dream up an ad campaign that we're sure would have Tivos flying out the door.

If you ran Tivo in the US however would you seriously think it was a worthwhile strategy to try again in a small-ish market, with much greater competition than the last time and when your profits are already under threat in your home base?

All you would be Tivo CEOs out there - what would you do?

Having said all this someone please convince me I'm wrong


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## Anndra (Oct 12, 2004)

Am I correct in thinking that the only TiVo series 2's are those made and branded by other manufacturers? Sony TiVo, Humanx TiVo etc.?

If so, who makes the Series 3? There doesn't seem to be any overt branding excepting TiVo's.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

Series 2 standalones were available both unbranded direct from TiVo and also branded by Sony,Humax etc., but the series 2 DVD units were all only branded -Toshiba and Panasonic I think.
The HiDef and integrated DirectTV units were TiVo/DirecTV branded.

Series 3 seems only to be self branded.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Pugwash said:


> I think right now, the thing that would most satisfy me would be some software I could buy from TiVo to install on a PC as a complete replacement operating system.


I, too, wonder why Tivo Inc. is wedded to the dedicated device.

Admittedly, if they did release Tivo HomeBrew Edition, they'd have to support a more diverse selection of hardware and, I suppose, they'd have to run a Tivo Update server to farm out new drivers, but that could be invisible to the end user as it is now.

It would be interesting to know how much hardware manufacturers pay for the software at the moment; I'd guess a lot less than Tivo Inc could sell it for as a download from their site.


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## sellmynumber (Sep 19, 2006)

manolan said:


> Indeed. And it even has a front panel display to silence all the critics of the earlier models!


Actually thats one rather good idea of the Tivo to *not*have a display and for two reasons, 1/ My Tivo is in my bedroom, at night a display be irritating when you're trying to get to sleep and 2/ if i want to see what im doing the Tivo on screen graphics is plenty enough for me.


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## Simon George (Oct 21, 2003)

It is sad to report, that now I have my TV Drive for several months, I simply do not need Tivo anymore. One day recently I realised was not watching it. HDMI on TVDrive it just too good in comparison when watching on a projector (and that is exluding HD transmissions) .

TV Drive for all its shortcomings and faults is just better to watch.

I am thinking to transferring my Tivo to the loft where the guest free tv box is to be found. But for me it is the end of the affair.

Unless Tivo are willing to re enter the market in the UK with series three or something like it, I can't see a way back.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Simon George said:


> I am thinking to transferring my Tivo to the loft where the guest free tv box is to be found. But for me it is the end of the affair.(


Selling it on Ebay would be better for you financially and also more productive for the rest of us continuing Tivo fans who are more concerned about what we watch than out and out picture quality and are not willing to pay the large annual subs currently demanded to watch HDTV. If you put your Tivo in the loft for 10 years it will be no use for anything at the end of it.

Do you have a Lifetime sub and/or expanded hard drive? A basic Tivo should sell on Ebay for over £100 and one with a lifetime sub for well over £200.

Clearly everyone has their own priorities. Many others on here who have gone to Sky HD seem to report regretting their decision.


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## Simon George (Oct 21, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> Selling it on Ebay would be better for you financially and also more productive for the rest of us continuing Tivo fans who are more concerned about what we watch than out and out picture quality and are not willing to pay the large annual subs currently demanded to watch HDTV.


It never fails to amaze me how much picture quality does NOT matter to many if not most consumers. In fact I am beginning to wonder why the audio-visual industry is making a mistake with w/s and HD. You are not the first and will not be the last to phrase your thought in the way you just have.

As to your implication that prefering a higher picture quality means not being concerned with content, that is just silly. I am concerned that whatever I choose to watch that it be of the best video and audio quaility one can (reasonably) afford.

(An extra £10 per month on my cable bill in my case - not in any way "large", and a cheaper financing option than buying a series 3 tivo [if it were possible] over a 4 year timescale.)

However your e-bay suggestion is a worth a big thankyou. :up:


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

Simon George said:


> It never fails to amaze me how much picture quality does NOT matter to many if not most consumers. In fact I am beginning to wonder why the audio-visual industry is making a mistake with w/s and HD. You are not the first and will not be the last to phrase your thought in the way you just have.


Oh, totally! I'm amazed at the emporer's new clothes syndrome. Almost every time I go into a TV shop someone is fawning over a "HD Ready" display, with less resolution than standard PAL which is showing an svideo (or RF) feed of a terestrial channel with the wrong aspect ratio!

Fact - people think bigger is better. Regardless of quality.

I've got a 720p projector and a 92" screen (lucky me!). If I run a good DivX of, say 24 or the West Wing, I'm amazed at the clarity. I can count the stubble on Keifer Sutherland's chin (63,543,450 if you're interested). 
When I put on a well mastered DVD It stuns me to think that people are pushing for HiDef. I'd much rather have higher bit-rate than resolution.

I'll accept that a well set up HD system will blow the pants off a well set up SD system. But a well set up SD system beats a poorly set up HD system . Sadly most companies have a vested interest in making their systems as hard to set up as possible.

On to more interesting matters - can anyone help me with some TCL coding?

T


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Simon George said:


> (An extra £10 per month on my cable bill in my case - not in any way "large", and a cheaper financing option than buying a series 3 tivo [if it were possible] over a 4 year timescale.)
> 
> However your e-bay suggestion is a worth a big thankyou. :up:


I agree that if one is already paying £35 or more per month to Sky and whatever is the equvalent to NTL/Telewest for a sports and film package then £10 on top is not that big a proportionate increase, especially if you did not have a Tivo lifetime sub so would be saving the £10 monthly sub on that.

However if like me and quite a few here one only has Freeview (or in my case Freesat and Freeview) then wanting HD would mean me paying around £500 a year or more in subs to the Murdoch empire I am not presently paying. £500 a year over 10 years is £5,000 and £5,000 invested on the stockmarket for 20 years can turn into some frighteningly large amounts of money if reasonably invested............. 

So as long as you absolutely MUST have pay tv because you watch Premier football etc then I can see why it makes sense for you. But luckily as an F1 fan my favourite passion is free and I find there are more than enough movies on the Freeview/Freesat channels (especially now we have Film Four) to keep me happy.

No need to thank me on the Ebaying of your redundant Tivo suggestion as its purely my own sorrow at the idea of a poor little Tivo sitting around doing nothing useful when it could be making someone very happy (what about a Christmas or birthday present for your mum or your brother or sister or whoever if you don't want to sell it on Ebay) that led to me suggesting it. Also the more Tivos go completely off line then the sooner may Tivo be inclined to think of finally pulling the plug on their UK EPG service.


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## Furball (Dec 6, 2001)

Simon George said:


> It never fails to amaze me how much picture quality does NOT matter to many if not most consumers.


Its only TV after all , disposable entertainment so for myself its fine in the quality that we get and that TiVo reproduces, and its TiVos fantastic way that it makes TV even more disposable which makes it so attactive.

For me, watching the news, Dr Who, 24, WestWing in HD seems pointless, after all I'm only going to go "Boing" delete now at the end of it  and do I pay that much attention the actual program anyway  as I said its disposable entertainment.

Fur


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Furball said:


> For me, watching the news, Dr Who, 24, WestWing in HD seems pointless, after all I'm only going to go "Boing" delete now at the end of it  and do I pay that much attention the actual program anyway  as I said its disposable entertainment.


Its the plot and program quality that mainly determines my enjoyment of a program rather then the visual resolution, even though I do confess to finding it very hard to enjoy almost any film in Black & White, although possible exceptions being real gems like Laurel & Hardy or Kind Hearts & Coronets. HD is a very small advance compared to the introduction of Colour on UK television in place of Black & White, which I am old enough to remember in my household as a 10 year old. That also involved an improvement in screen resolution too from 405 to 625 lines.

Also just look at how long the program format change to widescreen is taking so you can imagine how long it will take for SD to HD to be completed, even leaving aside all the old SD programs that will continue to be reshown.

I find I enjoy Tivo programs that I have somehow found their way on to my Notebook PC (by means we cannot discuss here) for viewing on my PC on the train or on holiday as much as I do those on my larger home television. However I did used to find watching tv on a 4" colour portable I once owned not too much fun though unless it was some very major sporting event I wanted to keep in touch with. So that is why I think mobile phone tv may not be that big a hit.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Furball said:


> Its only TV after all , disposable entertainment so for myself its fine in the quality that we get and that TiVo reproduces, and its TiVos fantastic way that it makes TV even more disposable which makes it so attactive.


I must admit I find the "Its only TV" (sic) quip that occasionally crops up here quite annoying.

I don't find it "disposable entertainment", unless one is taking a zen-like, or nihilistic, view that we're all going to die one day, all things must pass and therefore nothing is important.

For me, television *is* important; it's my main source of news, information and entertainment.

I certainly had little idea that school dinners were so poor until Jamie Oliver came along.



> For me, watching the news, Dr Who, 24, WestWing in HD seems pointless, after all I'm only going to go "Boing" delete now at the end of it  and do I pay that much attention the actual program anyway  as I said its disposable entertainment.


Given that you don't care about picture quality, or indeed about the programme itself, maybe you're not the best person to comment. 

I, myself, would relish seeing Doctor Who in HD; the visual aspect, special effects etc. is a major part of its appeal, which you'd know if you paid attention. 

The news is another matter; I already fast forward through much of the carnage portrayed; having that in more detail would not enhance my life.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ericd121 said:


> I certainly had little idea that school dinners were so poor until Jamie Oliver came along.


Did you not attend a UK school yourself then Eric? Perhaps you were educated by your parents or perhaps abroad somewhere where school dinner standards are higher?  

I attended four different UK schools in my school career, all in the more financially monied, theoretically better resourced and more up market private sector and yet the standard of the catering varied from the actively vile to at best the bland and awful.

I can still remember those ghastly Cheese and Egg pies with going off or overcooked eggs and disgusting soggy pastry even now from when I was a 7 year old and I've still been put off for life from eating raw tomatoes or cooked peas by a sadistic private school that said we had to eat everything up (no European convention of human rights or ban on the use of the cane back then) no matter how ill it made us feel that I attended for a couple of years beween the age of 8 and 10.

Perhaps you attended the one school in the UK which actually had delicious school dinners then?


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Perhaps you attended the one school in the UK which actually had delicious school dinners then?


I seem to recall that mine were okay. It was so long ago it could be wishful thinking though


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## Ashley (Apr 20, 2002)

The main thing I remember about school dinners is the strange meat - full of tubes!


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## Andy Davies (Mar 4, 2004)

algordon said:


> All you would be Tivo CEOs out there - what would you do?
> 
> Having said all this someone please convince me I'm wrong


I think you're pretty much right but this is what I'd do...

Offer a box which delivers the features of the Tivo (with dual Freeview tuners) but similar to the Toppy which encourages hobbyist to 'add value'.

I'd also add a network port and the ability to stream content from the PVR to other clients and sell something along the lines of Apple's iTV to complement the PVR i.e. you can schedule recordings or watch them from other rooms in the house.

The real question becomes how do you make money? People like Topfield are doing it on the hardware, but Tivo relies on a proprietary program guide for it's revenue.

What do Tivo really want to sell - the product or the service? Perhaps they could rely on the Freeview program guide as a default (perhaps restrict it to 7 days) and then offer an upgrade to a more complete one e.g. 14 days, does series passes correctly etc.

Still not sure this a viable option though 

Andy


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Did you not attend a UK school yourself then Eric?
> I attended four different UK schools in my school career, all in the more financially monied, theoretically better resourced and more up market private sector and yet the standard of the catering varied from the actively vile to at best the bland and awful.


Pete, it pleases my proletarian politics that privilege and position produced poor provisions for paying posh pupils.

I think that Carl and I are of a similar vintage; I left school in 1978.

In state schools, dinners may have been unadventurous, but they were usually edible.

If I can remember school dinners at all, I think they were looked forward to, and rarely, if ever, rejected.

"In 1980 the Thatcher government's first education act made the provision of school meals discretionary and dumped all nutritional standards.

Eight years later, the introduction of compulsory competitive tendering - the requirement that all contracts for local services be given to the most competitively priced bidder - guaranteed that the quality of school meals collapsed." - *The Observer June 25, 2006  *

Once the market economy had taken over, then, as you found in your public school, the quality declined because food was being viewed as a cost, rather than as nutrition for growing minds.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

ericd121 said:


> I think that Carl and I are of a similar vintage; I left school in 1978.


Not quite. I started high school (ie the one after Juniors) in '79. Makes you about 5? years older. I'm 39  (Okay. Five years might _just_ be on the border of 'similar')


> In state schools, dinners may have been unadventurous, but they were usually edible.


That's my recollection.

The rest of your post is just depressing


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ericd121 said:


> Pete, it pleases my proletarian politics that privilege and position produced poor provisions for paying posh pupils.
> 
> I think that Carl and I are of a similar vintage; I left school in 1978.
> 
> In state schools, dinners may have been unadventurous, but they were usually edible.


Eric,

Well I left school here in 1981 but at age 18 being a privileged sort of a git and inevitably heading on to one of the few real universities that still existed back in those days compared to all those now artificially upgrade Polys. Not sure whether despite the best efforts of the Thatcher regime you made it to Uni or not? Logic says that at least most Tivo hacker types have been to Uni though. I suppose that if you were off down the local mines at age 15 though we might even indeed be the same age. 

Perhaps a possible explanation on my shock at school dinner quality is that coming from a well off middle class home my mother always prepared particularly sumptuous and tasty fare so the contrast with the survival rations at school may have seemed a lot harsher?

And due as you say to possibly a profit maximising ethos at my schools (although note that private sector schools are run as charities and I think at least in those days were mainly all about the established and much smaller middle and upper middles classes maintaining their existing elite educational status rather than about being filthy lucre making businesses in their own right) the dinner ladies were all Elsie Scrunge from the local council estate on only 20p an hour or whatever it was back then who only knew about serving boiled carrots and overcooked mash to their kids. Whereas you poor proletarian guys may have been grateful even to have any kind of a reliable square meal at all?  

Also may I commend you on your particularly fine example of alliteration at the top of your previous post on a level to match or even exceed the well known "Peter picked a peck of pickled peppers". Its amazing what you state school sector fellows seemed to have managed to pick up even in what you found to be that oppressive Thatcher run era of the late 1970s. 

By the way Eric just noticed your "Lovely" Tivoweb themes and downloaded and installed them but can't find one I really like better than Technophobe2 which just shades out the very similar Technophobe. If I had to pick one of yours it would be LovelyGeen but I still find the lack of contrasting colour a bit too much. I did think the presentation of the modules in boxes in the three lines across the top was better though.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Logic says that at least most Tivo hacker types have been to Uni though.


I hope you didn't get taught that 'logic' at Uni, 'cos I for one never went to one


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> I hope you didn't get taught that 'logic' at Uni, 'cos I for one never went to one


It might have been the eltist private sector schooling that is to blame for such narrow minded thinking on my part. Although of course if present trends continue it will soon become elitist not to go to University.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

ericd121 said:


> I think that Carl and I are of a similar vintage; I left school in 1978.
> 
> In state schools, dinners may have been unadventurous, but they were usually edible.
> 
> If I can remember school dinners at all, I think they were looked forward to, and rarely, if ever, rejected.


I left school in 1976.

Sittings for dinner were on a rota basis based on your year and so that everyone got a chance at first sitting.

Preferences were for 1st or 2nd sitting as everything was still available, or for 5th sitting as you got to go for "seconds"... and sometimes thirds or fourths 

People attending lunchtime clubs got priority tickets for "first serving" so several clubs of little interest were joined so that you could get into dinner early and sit in a warm dry classroom afterwards rather than out in the cold and wet.

Failing that you would deliberately be late so that you were one of the last in and could get seconds. 

The times of the sittings werent fixed, it was just a continuous line of pupils entering the dining hall.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

> Logic says that at least most Tivo hacker types have been to Uni though


I knew there was a reason why my TiVo remains unhacked .... and I thought it was just because SWMBO would kill me if I broke it !!!


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

At last - a post in this thread that actually mentions the word "TiVo" 

Is it just me being dense, or are the two subjects of school dinners and Series 3 TiVos related in some mysterious way I have yet to understand?


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> At last - a post in this thread that actually mentions the word "TiVo"
> 
> Is it just me being dense, or are the two subjects of school dinners and Series 3 TiVos related in some mysterious way I have yet to understand?


I believe the cause of this is due to a Series 1 Tivo, specifically Erics, which recorded "Jamies School Dinners" which disturbed the space time continuum resulting in this thread getting diverted.

The other possible link is the fact that the likelyhood of getting todays kids eating cabbage and brussel sprouts is on a par with us getting a series 3 machine.

Bring on the cabbage and sprouts


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> Is it just me being dense, or are the two subjects of school dinners and Series 3 TiVos related in some mysterious way I have yet to understand?


I think the Tivo linkage was that it was used by Eric to record the Jamie Oliver programs about school dinners and had it not done so then we would never have had this interesting little side discussion about School dinner quality in this thread.

Any thread that commenced with asking Tivo owners about their school dinner quality in the abstract would rightly have been moved to the UK General Chit Chat section of the forum.

Mind you even then I think we have somehow drifted to discussing the use of Tivo S1s rather than the S3s this thread is supposed to be about.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

katman said:


> Preferences were for 1st or 2nd sitting as everything was still available, or for 5th sitting as you got to go for "seconds"... and sometimes thirds or fourths


Yes! I remember that! Our school meals were so nice I always went for seconds; or more


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Yes! I remember that! Our school meals were so nice I always went for seconds; or more


Little theory emerging here on my part that perhaps in the average Comp or Secondary School of the time truancy rates were already sufficiently high that you had to offer the kids a decent meal to encourage them to turn up. Whereas the average private school kid had no option but to go in no matter how bad the food as they knew they would face the Spanish Inquisition and severe retribution from Mummy and Daddy if the school ever called to ask why their little one had not been attending.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

When I went to school, junk food didn't exist, and there was nothing really local to the school for purchasing alternate food. Therefore, school meals were as good as you could get, and were subsidised enough to be the only real choice. Also, pocket money was a fraction of what kids get nowadays, so nobody could afford to buy food elsewhere.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

iankb said:


> When I went to school, junk food didn't exist, and there was nothing really local to the school for purchasing alternate food. Therefore, school meals were as good as you could get, and were subsidised enough to be the only real choice. Also, pocket money was a fraction of what kids get nowadays, so nobody could afford to buy food elsewhere.


We had a substantial "Tuck Shop" at both the prep school I attended and the public school that followed it both of which were day and not boarding schools. I seem to recall loading up on the Mars bars and the crisps to compensate for the lousy meals which I did not eat much of.

You could get eight Black Jacks or Fruit Salad chewies for 1p back in 1973 (a Mars was I think 3p back then) but if they still exist I expect its now a question of how many pence for one Black Jack.

As to the school meals well they were thrown in as part of the fees and no doubt on some inadequate budget that caused them to be gruel like. But of course the Tuck Shop was a further profit centre so the more sweets the kids chose to buy there due to the inadequate lunches the more extra money the school made................


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> Is it just me being dense, or are the two subjects of school dinners and Series 3 TiVos related in some mysterious way I have yet to understand?


Given the remote chance of the Series 3 being introduced into the UK, we may as well discuss school dinners!

Also, seeing as newbies never read the sticky, one of them is bound to start a new "Is the Series 3 coming to the UK?" thread in a few month's time. 


Pete77 said:


> Little theory emerging here on my part that perhaps in the average Comp or Secondary School of the time truancy rates were already sufficiently high that you had to offer the kids a decent meal to encourage them to turn up.


Pete, you seem to be either ignorant of state schools (understandably so) or you're projecting current problems with state schools onto the state of schools in my era, the 1970's; truancy was rare at my school.

FYI I left in 1978 at 18.
That makes me 46, now (with apologies to Carl; I thought you were more mature!  ).
I didn't go to Uni, due to my own academic laziness - I can't use Thatcher as an excuse, even if she was Education Minister.


> note that private sector schools are run as charities ... rather than about being filthy lucre making businesses in their own right


Private schools were given charity status by, yes, Thatcher in the 1980's; many of us believe this was a means to avoid tax, not for any altruistic ethos espoused by these educational establishments.


> Whereas you poor proletarian guys may have been grateful even to have any kind of a reliable square meal at all?


No, our mums were brought up in the 30's and 40's, and therefore had been taught how to cook. We ate the school dinners because they were good food and we were growing kids. Then we had more good food when we went home. Kids eat a lot! 


> Its amazing what you state school sector fellows seemed to have managed to pick up even in what you found to be that oppressive Thatcher run era of the late 1970s.


It's amazing to me that your private school didn't teach you the use of the apostrophe and it's exceptions... 


> ...just noticed..."Lovely" Tivoweb themes...I really like...Technophobe2


Sir, you have no taste!  Actually, the dull, grey Technophobe themes were my spur to create the Lovely Themes.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

ericd121 said:


> FYI I left in 1978 at 18. That makes me 46, now (with apologies to Carl; I thought you were more mature!  )


After my four years on here I don't know how you came to _that_ conclusion


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ericd121 said:


> Pete, you seem to be either ignorant of state schools (understandably so) or you're projecting current problems with state schools onto the state of schools in my era, the 1970's; truancy was rare at my school


I'm judging from my Brother in Law who retrained as a teacher 5 years ago and who first taught at a massive boys only state school institution in downtown Medway that seemed to constitute little more than a pre-Borstal and where even physical assaults on teachers did not lead to expulsions as the Head wanted to lower his suspension and expulsion rates in government figures to get more funding.

He now teaches at another Secondary School establishment (no Comps in Kent as they are all grammar and Secondary system) in a different Kent town which has a better Head but still high rates of truancy (especially after age 14) which he tells me they generally don't chase in the last year or two before these problem pupils leave because the kids concerned generally either disrupt the lessons or vandalise the premises if they are compelled to attend - he also says these particular kids are mainly incapable of being taught so high is their aggression level and their general disrespect and contempt for authority. I think you will find that since your day the cane has gone as has almost all respect for establishment figures amongst many working class kids and the one parent families who are so frequently responsible for their delinquency.



> Private schools were given charity status by, yes, Thatcher in the 1980's; many of us believe this was a means to avoid tax, not for any altruistic ethos espoused by these educational establishments.


It sounds like you should have gone into Politics Eric as you have plenty of opinions in that area as well as on Tivos 



> Sir, you have no taste!  Actually, the dull, grey Technophobe themes were my spur to create the Lovely Themes.


I think of Technophobe2 as beautifully clear with just a little colour that does not distract from its functionality. Actually your boxes round each item in the in any case fairly superfluos top line repeat menu was an improvement but was just that your colour schemes were all one very bright colour that I didn't care for so much. The Lovely Green was not bad but in my subjective opinion still not an advance on Technophobe2.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> I think you will find that since your day the cane has gone as has almost all respect for establishment figures amongst many working class kids and the one parent families who are so frequently responsible for their delinquency.


At last! Something we can agree on. 

Speaking with all the knowledge and experience of a non-parent, I am in favour of corporal punishment for children.

I believe it teaches a non-verbal lesson that become hard-wired into the child
"There's always someone bigger than you, so behave or you'll suffer."
That, to me, is the function of the Police and is the basis of an ordered society.

It's also why I opposed the NSPCC's campaign against smacking;
children need to curb their aggression and reasoning doesn't work.

Actually, I think the lack of respect is widespread in all strata of society;
middle class kids are spoilt and therefore don't respect the effort that adults make to provide for them;
working class kids are aggressive, too cool for school and fall into disruptive behaviour.

Yes, generalisations, but with some truth, I think.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ericd121 said:


> Speaking with all the knowledge and experience of a non-parent, I am in favour of corporal punishment for children.
> 
> Actually, I think the lack of respect is widespread in all strata of society;
> middle class kids are spoilt and therefore don't respect the effort that adults make to provide for them;working class kids are aggressive, too cool for school and fall into disruptive behaviour.
> ...


So another 40+ non parent like myself then and I suspect also Carl. Is it our solo status that perhaps gives us all this extra time to ensure that we view all the television programs we consider most important? Having said that I never can fully catch up with the number of extra hours of recorded program my machine can now hold compared to an original Tivo, especially with all those extra distractions that also kill hours of valuable telly time like the Internet and especially all those addictive internet discussion forums (which the media never talks about strangely suggesting that all people ever do is write self diary web logs).

As to society the whole thing seems to slowly be crumbling away from the fine and straightforward values that you and I were used to in our childhood of the 1960s and 1970s but then again I suppose it could just be my age that is to blame for how I feel?.....


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> As to society the whole think seems to slowly be crumbling away from the fine and straightforward values that you and I were used to in our childhood of the 1960s and 1970s but then again I suppose it could just be my age that is to blame for how I feel?.....


I am 46. I got the cane a couple of times at school for really quite trivial things but I made sure it didnt happen anymore.

When I was growing up we only had 3 TV channels and video recorders didnt exist (OK so the first ones appeared when I was about 15 but very few could afford one). This meant that children could only see programmes when they were actually on TV and anything with bad language or violent/sexual content wasnt shown until later in the evening.

Now with Video and DVD, children can watch ANY film at any time. OK so we all saw things that we should have done like sneaking into an "X" film when we were only 15 but even the content of films has changed. I have seen some films classed as "12A" and content in there certainly wouldnt have been available to an audience of 12 year olds when I was that age. Kids of 5 & 6 regularly watch films intended for a much older audience at a time when they dont properly understand right from wrong etc and then believe what they are seeing is "normal"

Rap "Music" if you can call it that these days has lyrics that contain explicit sexual references or extreme violence and aggression, so much so that most of the records have to be censored before playing on the radio but of course the CD is uncensored. This results in kids believing that using the "F" word every other word is normal.

I dread to think what the state of the population will be like in 20 years time


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

F***ing abysmal  

(But at least almost everybody should have a TiVo )


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> (But at least almost everybody should have a TiVo )


I don't think the television program as we now understand it will actually exist in 30 years time. It will all be an interleaved multmedia experience while surfing on your PC or rather your handheld mobile device.

Sadly a Tivo will only be useful for so long as there is a conventional television schedule and conventional television programs to record.

Although perhaps they may still about be showing some old 1980s tv programs for us oldies in 30 years time as they wheel us around in our new high tech bath chairs!


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## Gavin (Jan 1, 2003)

katman said:


> I have seen some films classed as "12A" and content in there certainly wouldnt have been available to an audience of 12 year olds when I was that age. Kids of 5 & 6 regularly watch films intended for a much older audience at a time when they dont properly understand right from wrong etc and then believe what they are seeing is "normal"


12A does not mean no under 12's , thats the 12 certificate. 12A means no one under 12 *UNLESS* accomonaied by an adult. It's the adults responsibility to make sure it's suitable for that child. You could have a 1 year old but if the adult thinks it's OK they are allowed in.


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> I don't think the television program as we now understand it will actually exist in 30 years time. It will all be an interleaved multmedia experience while surfing on your PC or rather your handheld mobile device.


Yup - just like TV itself meant that books, radio and ciema completely disappeared.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ndunlavey said:


> Yup - just like TV itself meant that books, radio and ciema completely disappeared.


I haven't noticed any of those mediums having disappeared *completely*, although clearly TV has heavily dented their levels of popularity.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

ndunlavey said:


> Yup - just like TV itself meant that books, radio and ciema completely disappeared.


Actually there's a building in my town called a liberry and once when I accidentally walked past the DVD racks I noticed a huge trash area with thousands of old books lined up on racks. I suspect the chemical content of the bindings makes landfill disposal illegal for environmental reasons so they keep them in this trash area til they rot away.

So if, for curiosity, anyone wants to actually see one of those things called a book, PM me I'll show you on a map how to get there. We have an airport only about 20 miles away.


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> I haven't noticed any of those mediums having disappeared *completely*, although clearly TV has heavily dented their levels of popularity.


Clearly? What figures do you have? I suspect that both the total number of books read annually in the country and the number of books read annually per capita are both higher now that they were 100 years ago.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ndunlavey said:


> Clearly? What figures do you have? I suspect that both the total number of books read annually in the country and the number of books read annually per capita are both higher now that they were 100 years ago.


It appears you omitted the rolling eyes sarcasm symbol from your original post then?  

An awful lot of books these days are bought as birthday presents etc still due to our huge shop retail industry and the cheap price of most paperback books but I think market research will tell you that huge numbers of those books now go completely unread. I think some figures on the trend for the level of use at public lending libraries over the last 10 years would also begin to make you realise that there is very major shift in long term book reading trends.


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

What are these figures, then?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ndunlavey said:


> What are these figures, then?


Figures are that hardly anyone borrows ordinary reading books from public libraries anymore. They either buy them, because disposable incomes are much higher even at the less wealthy end of society, and also books are a lot cheaper in real terms, or they use web based alternatives to obtain the information (if it was a factual book rather than a childrens or a fiction book).

Also when we have wifi access everywhere and portable tablets that use the universal wifi and that look like a book page then eventually the normal book is going to be severely under threat even though I'm sure many of them will be kept unread on bookcases in people's houses as antiques.

Newspapers are already feeling the pinch. I know I hardly every buy one anymore.


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

I would have thought the drop in book borrowing figures was more to do with the relative reduction in prices of books than to do with a shift from reading books to watching TV. And it's going to be a L O N G time before electronic books make any sort of impact on book buying. Resolution, usability, reliability, weight and aesthetics have a very long way to go.

I would be astonished if TV use was much reduced in my life time (I've got at least another 20-odd years to go). I was chatting a couple of weeks ago to guy who does various new media things for the Beeb, and was very surprised at his denigrating of producers that "still have the mindset of producing one or two hour programmes", because he sees the future as being mini-bites of stuff, consumed on demand and blended as the recipient feels fit. I'm aghast at the prospect - whither, for example, _Foyle's War_, _Inspector Morse_ or _I, Claudius_ in such a world?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ndunlavey said:


> I'm aghast at the prospect - whither, for example, _Foyle's War_, _Inspector Morse_ or _I, Claudius_ in such a world?


Wither indeed is what will happen to such productions. In fact its already happened if you look at the BBC's drama and comedy output now compared to 20 years ago.

I don't know there might be a huge public revolt against the whole thing at the point at which they want to install a direct computer wi-fi link inside our brains. You can obviously imagine what kind of scary types of uses such technology could be put to with someone like Tony Blair or worse still David Cameron at the helm.


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## Nebulous (Nov 28, 2005)

ndunlavey said:


> ...it's going to be a L O N G time before electronic books make any sort of impact on book buying...


Interestingly, i did see an article about 6 months ago (on click I think) that showed a new type of flat panel display that used liquid ink cells and had a reasonably good 'printed' look.

It could display an image indefinitely while consuming zero power. It only required power to actually change the image.

This is perfect for electronic books, so it will be interesting to see if that takes off.

I much prefer to retreat to a quiet location and read a real book than sit reading in front of a PC, but it is rather a waste of trees, especially of you only read it once.

An electronic book with the look and feel of a real one does sound appealing. With the same memory capacity as an MP3 player, it would be able to store millions of pages of text.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this type of thing appearing very soon.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Nebulous said:


> I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this type of thing appearing very soon.


And the consequences of such a device for National Newspapers where the environmental waste and costs associated with the current system are even more substantial than with books may be even greater.

As long as authors and publishers get the same level of revenue why should they care what happens to a load of printers and bookshops who are only middlemen between them and the readers.

And think of the advantages for easily getting hold of your next book in English when you are on some far flung tropical island where it would previously have been impossible.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> You can obviously imagine what kind of scary types of uses such technology could be put to with someone like Tony Blair or worse still David Cameron at the helm.


Yes - much safer to leave it to somebody reliable like the honourable John Prescott


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> Yes - much safer to leave it to somebody reliable like the honourable John Prescott


Rory Bremner did a long serious interview about the state of Politics and Politicians on the BBC from the Labour Party conference last week and not an imitation of a politician's voice in sight.

I was impressed at just how perceptive and how bright he obviously is about everything that goes on.

Rory Bremner for Prime Minister I say.

I see that Cameron is starting to sink in the polls rapidly now that he has been rumbled as another Tony Blair but worse (did you ever hear Tony Blair rubbishing Harold Wilson or Jim Callaghan's past efforts for instance). I reckon Cameron could be out by the party conference next year, especially if somebody is prepared to go on the record about his seemingly still current drug taking habits.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Oh, I've got to weigh in on this one...

Books - Well, Jean Luc Picard reads books so they are safe for a couple of centuries yet. 

Electronic ink (or is it electronic paper, I forget which), will be perfected, but many folks will still prefer books.

I prefer to read PCPro in paper form, and would do so even if all the text were available online.



Pete77 said:


> An awful lot of books these days are bought as birthday presents etc still due to our huge shop retail industry and the cheap price of most paperback books but I think market research will tell you that huge numbers of those books now go completely unread.


Pete, you're making sweeping generalisations again. J.K. Rowling is richer than The Queen; how do you think that happened? Magic?

And with reference to reference books, look at the O'Reilly range of computing books, which are not merely a list of terms to look up, but an exploration and explanation of computing concepts.

As for television, one thing some broadcasters appear not to understand, or accept, is that television is a passive medium, and we like it that way.

Danny Baker once said that instead of the programme makers saying to the audience, 
"Tell us what you want.", the audience should say to the programme makers, 
"No, you think of something, make it, and we'll decide if we like it."

I must admit I'm very disappointed with the reality of digital telly compared to what I thought it could be.

The broadcasters concept of interactivity is, "How many more ways can we get the audience to give us money?"

This would be my concept of interactive TV; it answers the questions that come up whilst viewing. So you could select an actor and pull up details of their career, thus answering the perennial "What's she been in, them?" question.

Similarly, you could bring up a menu that gives you the details of the background music, or indeed the end theme - ever noticed that everyone seems to get a credit apart from the music?


> Rory Bremner did a long serious interview about the state of Politics and Politicians on the BBC from the Labour Party conference last week and not an imitation of a politician's voice in sight.


I wish I'd seen that.


> I was impressed at just how perceptive and how bright he obviously is about everything that goes on.


I used to work at Friends of the Earth, and Rory would occasionally ask for information to use in his act; I'm sure he did this with other organisations too; and I'm also sure that many facts he uses are rarely disemminated elsewhere. I certainly learnt a lot from "Iraq and a Hard Place".

I'm trying to think which post Mark Thomas should take; Home Secretary? DTI?


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

ericd121 said:


> Electronic ink (or is it electronic paper, I forget which), will be perfected, but many folks will still prefer books.


Particularly for books about how to get your computer bak from the "blue screen of death" 



> I must admit I'm very disappointed with the reality of digital telly compared to what I thought it could be.


You and me both. Inititial promotion of digital TV was along the lines of...

"It will do for TV what CD did for music" implying excellent quality.

What we have ended up with is the TV equivalent of extremely low bitrate MP3.

The "greater choice" that were were promised for the main part does not seem to be a greater choice of programming of minority appeal but a choice of which one of 27 channels do we want to see something aimed at the great unwashed which half the time isnt worth watching once!



> The broadcasters concept of interactivity is, "How many more ways can we get the audience to give us money?"


And look how many of the audience are dumb enough to do so. "Quizzes" like the ones on daytime TV giving people the chance to "win" £1000.

Er ...no... the chance to buy £1000 for only £1.50 and at the same time earn the TV company ten times that amount. The questions are VERY hard though.

What is Coca Cola ?

A. a breed of elephant
B. a country in Europe
C. a soft drink

Thank god for TiVo which will grab programs that I like even though they are shown at inconvienient times and allow me to watch what I want when I want. I cant remember the last time I watched any of the ITV channels other than for the local news.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

I thought that audio books would be the solution, since I could listen to them while driving to work. However, listening to the incredibly-boring and overlong 'Da Vinci Tedium', when read by a single male voice that tried to imitate foreign accents and female characters, just made me give up in disgust. If you've ever tried to listen to a sex-scene in an audio book, it either makes you want to laugh, puke up, or fall asleep in boredom, since one participant always sounds like a drag queen. Also, audio-books can be unexpectedly expensive for something that can be released electronically without any storage costs.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

iankb said:


> If you've ever tried to listen to a sex-scene in an audio book...


Didn't know they made _that_ sort of audio-book


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

cwaring said:


> Didn't know they made _that_ sort of audio-book


They don't have to be explicit to sound distinctly-odd when read out. Jane Eyre would probably sound just as odd; not that I would ever admit to reading that.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Yeah, I knew what you meant (and thought I'd made it obvious)


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