# Tivo's downward spiral



## Greg_R (Jan 30, 2008)

I've recently gone back to Tivo after a 6 year hiatus and the difference in customer service & quality is astounding (in a bad way). My observations:

Six years ago:
- Features were added without causing major screwups to basic functionality
- Feature requests were addressed by Tivo (added or told why not)
- Calls to the support line got you in touch with someone who could actually help you with your problem. Follow up calls from Tivo occurred to keep you up to date on any issues.

Now:
- Major functionality problems occur with various units (Tivo HD's grey screen / loss of picture, Series 3 reboot problems, etc.)
- Tivo technical support claims they have never heard of the major problems despite 100s of message board posts showing the issue
- Problems are often blamed on other companies (Cable card problem, Verizon problem, etc.)
- Their phone system does not let you use VoIP phones to call them.
- When you call Tivo, there is a lot of background chatter (other CSRs talking, laughing, etc.). This is to the point where you can barely hear what your CSR is saying. Did they remove all the cubicle walls at Tivo? They need to put them back in... ASAP!
- Getting my Tivo account activated took over 3 weeks. At no time did I receive a call from someone working on my problem. Note that this was not a problem with my box seeing the account update... the problem was with them setting up my account on their system (lifetime transfer + 1 lifetime purchase). I couldn't quite figure out why it was so hard for them to accept my money?
- Support documents are spread out all over the place and descriptions for most advanced features do not come in the box.
- Complete lack of official online or forum support

I received a questionnaire from Tivo and was able to send them most of this feedback. They need to take a hard look at their customer service and make major improvements if they want to remain competitive. I'm sure there are companies (Apple, Dell, etc.) that are working on "Tivo Killer" types of products.

Greg


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## TiVo_Fanatic (May 29, 2006)

Greg_R said:


> - Their phone system does not let you use VoIP phones to call them.


I'm not seeing alot of these issues you complain about like the S3 reboots etc... as for the following quote, Sorry but thats not true for me anyway... every call I've placed to TiVo in the past year has been with VoIP...


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

Greg_R said:


> They need to take a hard look at their customer service and make major improvements if they want to remain competitive. I'm sure there are companies (Apple, Dell, etc.) that are working on "Tivo Killer" types of products.


I don't know about Apple's support towards Macintosh computers since it's been over 8 years since I owned a Mac.

However, I do own an iPod (actually, I am currently on iPod #3) and their support for this particular product SUCKS!! Everything has to be handled online. At least TiVo allows you to speak to a live human being somewhere here in North America, even if it means a long hold time.

As far as Dell...have you spoken with their customer service reps lately? Most of the time you get someone in India whose command of American English is shaky at best and whose actual technical knowledge is even shakier.

Many companies have promised the "TiVo Killer" and so far nobody's delivered. Apple's closest effort is the AppleTV, and it's little more than a device to stream video content purchased from the iTunes store to your TV. Apple couldn't be bothered to at least give it rudimentary DVR function, some 10 years after TiVo.


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## shady (May 31, 2002)

Read this thread . TiVo really do try to do the right thing.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

Greg,

Sorry to hear you haven't had a good experience. Are there any outstanding issues you need resolved? If so, please drop me a line at [email protected] and we will take care of any issue.

As a nine year employee of TiVo, I really can't agree with any of your observations, however.


Greg_R said:


> - Major functionality problems occur with various units (Tivo HD's grey screen / loss of picture, Series 3 reboot problems, etc.)


Every release of software from the very beginning has always caused a small percentage of customers to have an issue. The primary reason for this is marginal hard drives that are put over the edge by the software update process. Our QE department is about five times bigger than the one we had six years ago, and our testing processes are more automated than ever. Our reliability tests and customer support rates show that each software release gets better in terms of problems like the ones you mention. Please don't take isolated forum posts as any kind of evidence of a trend -- we have a lot more customers now, and people will seldom take the time to post that a software update doesn't cause a problem. So in the year 2002 if we had a problem that affected 0.1% (1 in 1000) of customers, you might see 10 posts about it here. In the year 2008, if we have a problem that affects 0.05% (1 in 2000) customers, you might see 30 or more posts about it here.



> - Tivo technical support claims they have never heard of the major problems despite 100s of message board posts showing the issue


Our support staff generally does not read this forum, and never has.



> - Problems are often blamed on other companies (Cable card problem, Verizon problem, etc.)


I'm sorry you feel we're passing the buck, but if the Cable Card is physically defective, there's little we can do about it. Please note that our agents will often help you call your cable company and stay on the phone with you to resolve any issues that are outside of our control.


> - Their phone system does not let you use VoIP phones to call them.


I'm sorry you're having trouble, but any VoIP phone should be able to reach our toll-free number with no problems. What VoIP provider do you use?


> - When you call Tivo, there is a lot of background chatter (other CSRs talking, laughing, etc.). This is to the point where you can barely hear what your CSR is saying. Did they remove all the cubicle walls at Tivo? They need to put them back in... ASAP!


All of our support agents (now and six years ago) are actually employees of a third party company. They've never had cubes. I'm sorry to hear about the background noise; let me know via e-mail ([email protected]) when you called, and I'll let the call center know that they have an issue during those times.


> - Getting my Tivo account activated took over 3 weeks. At no time did I receive a call from someone working on my problem. Note that this was not a problem with my box seeing the account update... the problem was with them setting up my account on their system (lifetime transfer + 1 lifetime purchase). I couldn't quite figure out why it was so hard for them to accept my money?


Sorry you had difficulty; almost all of our customers activate online or via our phone system and have an activated unit within 15 minutes. It sounds like you may have had an unusual situation; in general, I have to say your systems are a lot more capable and robust than they were six years ago. I'm very sorry to hear about the delay in getting you activated, but please accept my assurance that your case is the exception rather than the rule.


> - Support documents are spread out all over the place and descriptions for most advanced features do not come in the box.


Can you be more specific? I think we do a better job now rather than six years ago about getting the feature documentation into our manuals and tivo.com/support.


> - Complete lack of official online or forum support


I'm sorry but that's not true. Six years ago we didn't maintain an official help forum (http://forums.tivo.com/pe/index.jsp) and today we do. We also have representatives on this forum, same today as we did six years ago.

I'm very sorry you're disappointed, but having worked to help improve TiVo over the years, I have to say that I believe we're very very far ahead of where we were six years ago.

Best regards,
Stephen


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## webin (Feb 13, 2008)

TiVoStephen said:


> <snip>


Exactly the sort of post that proves the opposite of the original poster's complaints (though I understand they were made in frustration). Is it possible to spiral upwards?


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

Greg_R said:


> Now:
> - Major functionality problems occur with various units (Tivo HD's grey screen / loss of picture, Series 3 reboot problems, etc.)
> - Tivo technical support claims they have never heard of the major problems despite 100s of message board posts showing the issue


That odd, I have owned four Tivo's for going on 9 years now and never had a single problem. My S2's and my S3 work just fine with no reboots.



Greg_R said:


> Their phone system does not let you use VoIP phones to call them.


Wrong again. I have had VOIP for more than three years. Whenever I had a question I got through no problem at all.

The whole tone of your post, from the title right on through, seems crafted to try to put down Tivo.

Could it be that you are a Tivo hater who owns a Dish network DVR and you are angry that Tivo is suing Dish? Sure sounds that way to me.


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## sleepeeg3 (Jul 22, 2006)

I had two instances where the S3 wouldn't respond to command and had to do a cold reboot by yanking out the power cord, due to an update and never had any problems since. 

The first rep I talked to setting up service on a Series 1 was amazingly awesome, the second guy gave me a bit of grief about purchasing an S3 on eBay and not getting support if the S3 failed that I was using a S1 to grandfather, but other than that no big deal. I was more worried about him being clueless (like reps from other companies) and having to fight for the grandfather transfer.

You're complaining about background chatter in a call center? Wow. If that's on the list of worst problems, then that's saying something good. Quit whining!

TiVo rocks! I just wish they could include the commercial skip of the ReplayTVs, but oh well.


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

webin said:


> Exactly the sort of post that proves the opposite of the original poster's complaints (though I understand they were made in frustration). Is it possible to spiral upwards?


I am pretty sure he is a disgruntled Tivo hater, probably because he is a Dish customer. Whenever someone has that much picky negative stuff to say that does not agree with my nine years of Tivo experience a red flag goes up, telling my gut instinct that there is a hidden agenda in that message.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

emphasis added by me


HPD said:


> I am pretty sure he is a disgruntled Tivo hater, *probably because he is a Dish customer*. Whenever someone has that much picky negative stuff to say that does not agree with my nine years of Tivo experience a red flag goes up, telling my gut instinct that there is a hidden agenda in that message.


and what is your agenda


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Greg_R said:


> Six years ago:
> - Features were added without causing major screwups to basic functionality
> - Feature requests were addressed by Tivo (added or told why not)
> - Calls to the support line got you in touch with someone who could actually help you with your problem. Follow up calls from Tivo occurred to keep you up to date on any issues.


6 years ago TiVo had no where near the volume of customers and no where near the volume of features in a TiVo DVR that they do now.

Kind of like saying DOS 3.3 had no major bugs but Windows does and now Steve Ballmer no longer talks to developer me personally.

and yet here we have a very good Tivo rep who has been active in this forum for years ( he addressed some of my new customer concerns on HMO 3.5 years ago in the same polite, open to feedback manner) still taking the time to politely respond and whose first concern is "are there any issues you still need help with". :up::up:


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## hddude55 (Jan 5, 2007)

Greg_R said:


> I've recently gone back to Tivo after a 6 year hiatus and the difference in customer service & quality is astounding (in a bad way). My observations:
> 
> Six years ago:
> - Features were added without causing major screwups to basic functionality
> ...


AMEN!!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

TiVo_Fanatic said:


> I'm not seeing alot of these issues you complain about like the S3 reboots etc... as for the following quote, Sorry but thats not true for me anyway... every call I've placed to TiVo in the past year has been with VoIP...


last official thing I saw.

calls over voip are not supported.

maybe it works maybe it doesn't.

doesn't work on my voip.

That said- not sure it's a big deal- if one has voip then one has broadband- no? WHy clutter the phone line when you can use your network? All current tivo's come with ethernet ports- no?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> last official thing I saw.
> 
> calls over voip are not supported.
> 
> ...


I think/thought they were talking about actually calling Tivo customer service (using VOIP). Not the Tivo dialing out over VOIP. But maybe I am reading that wrong. (I must be reading that wrong. I assumed it was the call center by TivoStephen's response. ) VOIP never worked for me with Lingo when I had it.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Phone call.... that's so 90's. Get broadband and use that... since you say you're using VOIP anyway.



> Their phone system does not let you use VoIP phones to call them.


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## mohanman (Dec 18, 2007)

I am a "new" tivo user for the past 3-4 months. I love it! It's so much better than dealing with home theater pcs, or comcast boxes. I do pay more, but it is worth it. I have never had any issues with my TIVo boxes, other than of course cablecard issues, but that is Comcast's fault. I had a few minor things here and there that I called TIVO for, and they took care of everything. 

I love TIVO, and their customer service is not half bad. I hope they continue to be around for a long time, because TIVO has really changed the way I watch TV, and has saved me from all the headaches and time I put into Home theater pc applications and hardware.

Thanks Tivo!


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## steve101 (Jan 4, 2005)

I have had 1 S2 issue with the upgrades, it turned out to be
a flaky hard drive - after a lot of playing with it including some
kick starts, I bit the bullet and replaced the drive - no problems
with that one since.
My S3 and TivoHD have had some of the issues that everyone
is having, grey screen, losing time, menu lockup ... but no
random or continual rebooting and there have been repeated
assurances from tivo personnel here and on the tivo support
forum that they are working on all of these.
I have called tivo CS on (I think) three occassions and got
satisfactory action for all three.
I would have to say that tivo has improved greatly since I
got my first S2 many years ago.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

VOIP works for me when I call customer service. So, I'm not sure either if that's what they were complaining about.

It never worked with my DTivo but now that I have the real thing.... why would I ever want to use VOIP anyway... cause you Tivo can do so much more.



greg_burns said:


> I think/thought they were talking about actually calling Tivo customer service (using VOIP). Not the Tivo dialing out over VOIP. But maybe I am reading that wrong. (I must be reading that wrong. I assumed it was the call center by TivoStephen's response. ) VOIP never worked for me with Lingo when I had it.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

TiVoStephen said:


> Our support staff generally does not read this forum, and never has.


I realize this, and I would have said the same thing if you hadn't.

But *PLEASE* put up http://bugreport.tivo.com or something like that where we can give SPECIFIC bug reports! I've read the various bug report threads here, and think I see a few that haven't been mentioned.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

mattack said:


> But *PLEASE* put up http://bugreport.tivo.com or something like that where we can give SPECIFIC bug reports! I've read the various bug report threads here, and think I see a few that haven't been mentioned.


That would be a big help. I called TiVo regarding a couple of (to me) severe bugs, the main one being the inability for my Series 2 to play back a 16:9 video in the correct aspect ratio on a widescreen TV and it was a PAIN to try and describe it. The CSR simply didn't believe me, because she claimed that the Series 2 had never been able to play back widescreen videos at all. I got her to report the bug, but honestly I didn't get the feeling that report, if she took it at all, would ever lead anywhere.

A simple bug reporting page similar to the line-up change page would be most welcome. It's not like I believe nobody at TiVo knows about this bug, but at least frequency of reporting might help them prioritize.


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## bigguy126 (Sep 4, 2007)

I can confirm what the poster said re: VIOP phones not working. When I had Verizon voicewing service, I could not call tivo support. The tivo phone system would not understand me pressing "2" (or whatever number it was) for Tivo support. I had to call back with a cell phone.


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

Greg_R said:


> I've recently gone back to Tivo after a 6 year hiatus and the difference in customer service & quality is astounding (in a bad way). My observations:


\

The King may be bare a**ed naked, don't say it on this forum though...


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

I tend to agree with the general idea the original poster has. There was a time when Tivo wasn't so secretive about bugfixes and new features. Now we not only have to guess when the next software release will be but also if it even addresses the specific bug in mind. 

There are also features that a significant portion of the community has asked for which are ignored. For example QAM mapping, true M-Card support on the S3, digital set top box support on the S2, free space indicator etc...

Why doesn't Tivo monitor this forum more closely? The amount of real world information on the product would be invaluable to any other company.

My join date may only be 2004 but I promise I've been around the scene for a while, IRL in fact...

Its too bad that the fanboys will be out in force or I'd try harder.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

ciper said:


> I tend to agree with the general idea the original poster has. There was a time when Tivo wasn't so secretive about bugfixes and new features. Now we not only have to guess when the next software release will be but also if it even addresses the specific bug in mind.
> 
> There are also features that a significant portion of the community has asked for which are ignored. For example QAM mapping, true M-Card support on the S3, digital set top box support on the S2, free space indicator etc...


I'm sorry you feel we've become more secretive, having been here from day one I'd argue that's not the case. Our product roadmap has never been public, as we've had to explain here on the forum many times over the years (yes, prior to 2004). Even back when Replay was our only competitor we were careful about how and when information was shared...there's nothing like giving a competitor free information on what you're doing. I will agree that there was a period, about four years ago, where we had a string of unfortunate leaks regarding new features. Those were not planned, sanctioned, or in any way helpful to us, trust me. You shouldn't take a lack of leaks as a change in policy though...we didn't intend to have the leaks to begin with! 

There have never been release notes regarding bug fixes in the past either. It's possible that we're not any more secretive today than you remember us being.

Regarding the specific features you've asked about, the free space indicator is certainly the longest running request. Longevity does not equal priority though. If that single feature would have sold more boxes and increased customer satisfaction for a significant portion of our subscribers, it would have been added years ago. It may get in there one day, but when prioritized against other things, it's often pretty low on the list.

Likewise, features such as QAM remapping and M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers, both are in fact very small numbers of subscribers. That doesn't mean that they automatically get set aside, or that TiVo is ignoring or doesn't care about those customers. But it is a consideration when trading off those features against others (M-Card for S3 is technically possible, but also technically very complex. We've learned that there is a lot of risk inherent in that development).

I assume by 'digital setup support for S2' you're referring to the ATSC converter boxes just coming onto the market in advance of next February's cut over for antenna signals (cable is not affected). That's being worked on, but I don't have a date or support plans to share yet.

We're also pretty open here, myself, Jerry, and Stephen, about engaging with customers who have issues, helping to identify what can be done, soliciting help (and beta testers), etc. There aren't many companies that allow employees to participate on open forums the way that TiVo does.

We do our best. But I have to acknowledge that no matter how much time we spend here, there will always be one more post to answer. If we can help, and provide information, we always will. Just don't ask for our product roadmap. 

Cheers,
Pony


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ciper said:


> I tend to agree with the general idea the original poster has.
> 
> Why doesn't Tivo monitor this forum more closely? The amount of real world information on the product would be invaluable to any other company.


There is no question his overall premise is correct, although some of his specifics are unique or wrong.

TiVo only reads the posts about how wonderful it is, thus perpetuating its self delusion. 

Stephen has a rock solid reputation for credibility and I don´t like seeing him getting in here with the sort of stuff we usually get from TiVoPony.


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

TiVoPony said:


> ...snip...


I have to applaud the way you stick with this forum, helping people, answering questions and responding to comments. At times, this forum comes across like it's full of whinging, whining know-it-alls who believe they _officially_ represent all the TiVo owners out there and expect everything they say and ask for to be immediately acted upon. In reality, this forum probably only voices the opinions of a _fraction_ of the total TiVo ownership out there and as is usual with forums like this, speaks mainly for those who are unhappy or have genuine issues. The negativity can get overwhelming!

Personally, I'm perfectly happy with my TiVoHD. It has it's quirks and over time, I've had to reboot it a few times to clear up some menu and video issues, but overall, it hasn't seriously let me down and it organizes my TV viewing the way I want it to. I like it when new features come along and I'm very happy when bugs are fixed, but I don't presume to demand that TiVo jump when I say jump and build a device to my exact specifications! I don't own the company and until I do, I'll take what I can get as the product evolves over time.

If ever I get to the point where I don't like the direction TiVo is heading or the service it offers, I'll vote with my cheque book and move on. Until then, add me to the satisfied customer column. Good job TiVo! I can't wait to see what you come up with next. :up:


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## sommerfeld (Feb 26, 2006)

bigguy126 said:


> I can confirm what the poster said re: VIOP phones not working. When I had Verizon voicewing service, I could not call tivo support. The tivo phone system would not understand me pressing "2" (or whatever number it was) for Tivo support. I had to call back with a cell phone.


my home phone has been using a different voip service for many years. I've called tivo support many times and never had any trouble getting through the touch tone menus.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> Regarding the specific features you've asked about, the free space indicator is certainly the longest running request. Longevity does not equal priority though. If that single feature would have sold more boxes and increased customer satisfaction for a significant portion of our subscribers, it would have been added years ago. It may get in there one day, but when prioritized against other things, it's often pretty low on the list.
> 
> Likewise, features such as QAM remapping and M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers, both are in fact very small numbers of subscribers. That doesn't mean that they automatically get set aside, or that TiVo is ignoring or doesn't care about those customers. But it is a consideration when trading off those features against others (M-Card for S3 is technically possible, but also technically very complex. We've learned that there is a lot of risk inherent in that development).
> 
> I assume by 'digital setup support for S2' you're referring to the ATSC converter boxes just coming onto the market in advance of next February's cut over for antenna signals (cable is not affected). That's being worked on, but I don't have a date or support plans to share yet.


Wow, TiVoPony! That was a boatlaod of info people have been asking about here for some time. Thanks for the info :up:

Now as a 4 year TiVo fan whom you know supports the products and your involvemnet here in a positive way - let me give some (i hope) constructive feedback on this.
Why did it take a negative thread by someone to finally get that info straight from the Ponies mouth? I do indeed take your point that there is always one more post to answer and I would not think you have the time to keep replying in every thread about say ATSC converters for series 2 but you obviously know such threads have been around a while. 4 years ago we might have seen some of your infamous hint posts a few months ago to steer us on how that will play out. Now it is not so much.  So clearly we (well most we) appreciate it when you post such information but it does seem you have become busier and the forum is left with less straight scoop from TiVo then it used to have. I can only imagine how it must have been 2 years even before I came along and the original poster was here.



> We're also pretty open here, myself, Jerry, and Stephen, about engaging with customers who have issues, helping to identify what can be done, soliciting help (and beta testers), etc. There aren't many companies that allow employees to participate on open forums the way that TiVo does.
> 
> We do our best.


Yes I think you do, back on the positive side :up: I consider this forum, and the TiVo associates who post here, and do indeed help out a lot of posters, one of the best features of TiVo :up::up::up:


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

bigguy126 said:


> I can confirm what the poster said re: VIOP phones not working. When I had Verizon voicewing service, I could not call tivo support. The tivo phone system would not understand me pressing "2" (or whatever number it was) for Tivo support. I had to call back with a cell phone.


That would not be TiVo's issue. The problem is in the VoIP service. There are multiple methods to relay DTMF signalling over VoIP. The worst is in the voice band. It MAY work over G.711 if the jitter is sufficiently low. DTMF inband over G.729 is almost assured to fail. The preferred method is RFC2833.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Why did it take a negative thread by someone to finally get that info straight from the Ponies mouth?


Because scurrilous accusations require response. It's pretty despicable that folks would resort to such scurrilous accusations, though.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bigguy126 said:


> I can confirm what the poster said re: VIOP phones not working. When I had Verizon voicewing service, I could not call tivo support. The tivo phone system would not understand me pressing "2" (or whatever number it was) for Tivo support. I had to call back with a cell phone.


ahhhh-
Now I understand

well that's actually 2 things.

1) the voip providers apparently have to adjust their "tone" settings to match some telco standards.
2) but tivo has a stupid system that doesn't default to a human if you press no button that it recognizes. That's a RUDE behavior that some of these automated systems are starting to have.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> I'm sorry you feel we've become more secretive, having been here from day one I'd argue that's not the case. Our product roadmap has never been public, as we've had to explain here on the forum many times over the years (yes, prior to 2004). Even back when Replay was our only competitor we were careful about how and when information was shared...there's nothing like giving a competitor free information on what you're doing. I will agree that there was a period, about four years ago, where we had a string of unfortunate leaks regarding new features. Those were not planned, sanctioned, or in any way helpful to us, trust me. You shouldn't take a lack of leaks as a change in policy though...we didn't intend to have the leaks to begin with!
> 
> There have never been release notes regarding bug fixes in the past either. It's possible that we're not any more secretive today than you remember us being.
> 
> ...


I think part of the perception is that there are no longer semi-secret features for those "in the know" here on TC.

backdoor codes got killed off.

We haven't seen anyone lately like that band the super friends of reality (or whatever their name was.....)

Might be the typical longing for "the good old days" but it does seem that years ago there was much more of that sort of thing to be found here on the forums.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

JohnBrowning said:


> That would not be TiVo's issue. The problem is in the VoIP service. There are multiple methods to relay DTMF signalling over VoIP. The worst is in the voice band. It MAY work over G.711 if the jitter is sufficiently low. DTMF inband over G.729 is almost assured to fail. The preferred method is RFC2833.


agreed the voip provider is probably wrong.

But shouldn't the stupid automated system connect you to a human after a certain default period of time?

My 2 cent's is that it is rude not to.

Maybe tivo has no say in the matter with the vendor but if they do it would be the polite thing to do to connect to a human after X seconds without a response.

Maybe they should pay more for the more annoying voice recognition option.- > "hi this is claire, what did you say? You want to buy a toaster with velvetta cheese? Please say yes?"


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> I think part of the perception is that there are no longer semi-secret features for those "in the know" here on TC.
> 
> backdoor codes got killed off.
> 
> ...


Perhaps what I find funny is that TiVo thinks it actually has something worth keeping secret - well not everything, but...

Or that once stuff is released how unable TiVo is to communicate its value and existence to the market, thus the secret never ends in some way.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

TiVoPony said:


> Likewise, features such as QAM remapping and M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers, both are in fact very small numbers of subscribers.


Pony, thanks so much for posting here.

I can see how QAM remapping might not affect a large number of _current _subs, but the idea is to get _new _subs, and the evidence here is that there is a very large untapped market here. Obviously, there is a large market of people who only want to record their local HD channels, since you included an ATSC antenna input on the S3. Equally obvious is the fact that there is a large part of the population who cannot get perfect reception for all their local HD broadcasts, for a long list of reasons. Therefore it stands to reason that there is a large market of people who only want to record local HD, but cannot use an antenna...thus, clear QAM reception over cable.

We have many posts that talk about known friends/relatives who would buy a TivoHD if it supported clear QAM guide data. I myself know 3 such people! And, I unfortunately have to recommended against buying a TivoHD all the time to people because of missing clear QAM guide support. TiVo would tap into a large new market if it would just add support for this. What's more, there is no other good DVR alternative for such people...cable won't rent us one for clear QAM recording...thus, TiVo could own the _whole market _if it would just add support for this! Please consider at least some basic level of support (like, automatically supplying OTA guide data for markets where PSIP maps clear QAM channels to OTA equivalents). I think you'd find an explosion of new TiVoHD buyers.

Thanks Pony (my favorite TiVo poster)!!!


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Saxion said:


> I can see how QAM remapping might not affect a large number of _current _subs, but the idea is to get _new _subs, and the evidence here is that there is a very large untapped market here.


If you build it, he will come.

An important part of understanding TiVo´s past and divining its future is to look beyond what TiVo says to what TiVo does NOT say, or KNOW itself...

TiVo says: We have a roadmap.

TiVo does not say: All the roads on our map lead either to dead ends, cliffs or the middle of nowhere.

Anyone can have a roadmap. I got a road map right here. Its free with a bridge I´m selling. The roadmap has to lead somewhere worthwhile.

TiVo says: We work according to priorities...

TiVo does not say: The reason we are limited to addressing only _these _priorities is that every time we do something stupid that loses us tens of millions of dollars more (like the New Marketing Plan of 2 yrs ago) it takes money away from development work on software performance enhancements, bug fixes and new features, which might benefit our standalone users who are bringing in an average of nearly $9/mo (per old accounting method.)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Saxion said:


> Pony, thanks so much for posting here.
> 
> I can see how QAM remapping might not affect a large number of _current _subs, but the idea is to get _new _subs, and the evidence here is that there is a very large untapped market here.


there are products out there already that can record unencrypted QAM- and do not require a subscription.
Sorry but we have the word now - it is just not a large audience and there are already alternatives to record them anyway including cable cards in the TiVo or OTA.

TiVo has done the ROI analysis and found it does not look good for QAM mapping. The good news is the hackers now have a great new project


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

> _by TrueTurbo in reply to TiVoPony:_
> I have to applaud the way you stick with this forum, helping people, answering questions and responding to comments. At times, this forum comes across like it's full of whinging, whining know-it-alls who believe they _officially_ represent all the TiVo owners out there and expect everything they say and ask for to be immediately acted upon. In reality, this forum probably only voices the opinions of a _fraction_ of the total TiVo ownership out there and as is usual with forums like this, speaks mainly for those who are unhappy or have genuine issues. The negativity can get overwhelming!


+1

a *BIG* one!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

what jmoak said


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## gilgie (Apr 5, 2008)

ive been a constant tivo user for 6 years and im on my third tivo, my first is still one i use on a daily basis. and there are 1000 times more customers now and they still give good service. they may not be waiting for the phone to ring anymore but they still give you the personal service


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## cia_viewer (Mar 11, 2008)

TiVoPony said:


> I'm sorry you feel we've become more secretive, having been here from day one I'd argue that's not the case. Our product roadmap has never been public, as we've had to explain here on the forum many times over the years (yes, prior to 2004). ...
> 
> I assume by 'digital setup support for S2' you're referring to the ATSC converter boxes just coming onto the market in advance of next February's cut over for antenna signals (cable is not affected). That's being worked on, but I don't have a date or support plans to share yet.
> 
> ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by cia_viewer View Post
I wonder if we can come up with the properties that are critical in a CECB (Converter Box) to get an Analog TiVo DVR recording for Digital OTA TV?
(At least manual recording by channel and time start, stop)

1) Analog Pass: Indicates whether the CECB allows analog signal passthrough when not Powered on. (to continue recording analog programs before Feb 2009)

2) EZ Add stations (Supplement results of scan e.g.: antenna rotor)

3) Some? (defined???) capability to turn on and control CECB synchronized with recording schedule.

4) ...?

I hope that we can, collectively, build up this list of CECB features that are critical to TiVo DVR recording. ... I certainly do not know enough to 'build out' this list!
Are there any more ideas on this? My meter is running (28 May) and I do not feel I know enough to pick my 'prize'.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> Perhaps what I find funny is that TiVo thinks it actually has something worth keeping secret - well not everything, but...


You honestly think that Tivo would be better served publishing exactly what the planned on doing in future releases, giving competitors time to start working on the same features if they so choose?



HDTiVo said:


> TiVo only reads the posts about how wonderful it is, thus perpetuating its self delusion.


This is demonstrably false, as shown by Stephen and Pony's posting in this thread. Nice try on your campaign to completely smear Tivo's management/marketing team across the board for no understandable reason. Better luck next time.



cipher said:


> Its too bad that the fanboys will be out in force or I'd try harder.


It's too bad that anyone that holds an opinion different than yours is a "fanboy" and therefore not worth listening to. Way to promote an honest conversation.

Stephen an Pony, as always thanks for your participation here. Keep up the great work. :up:


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> (M-Card for S3 is technically possible, but also technically very complex. We've learned that there is a lot of risk inherent in that development).


Definitely sorry to hear that the M-Card support for S3 is not that easy to implement as I haven't yet installed Cablecards on my second S3 (1 TV) but glad to have the information as to why it hasn't been implemented yet.

I'm still hoping that you find it feasible to do at some point.

Thanks!

Scott


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## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

HerronScott said:


> Definitely sorry to hear that the M-Card support for S3 is not that easy to implement as I haven't yet installed Cablecards on my second S3 (1 TV) but glad to have the information as to why it hasn't been implemented yet.
> 
> I'm still hoping that you find it feasible to do at some point.
> 
> ...


I also want to express my gratitude to TiVoPony for that info but I know of one person who is having this exact problem and he can't get an S card.


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## andyf (Feb 23, 2000)

You can use 2 M Cards in S3


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

GoHokies! said:


> You honestly think that Tivo would be better served publishing exactly what the planned on doing in future releases, giving competitors time to start working on the same features if they so choose?
> 
> This is demonstrably false, as shown by Stephen and Pony's posting in this thread. Nice try on your campaign to completely smear Tivo's management/marketing team across the board for no understandable reason. Better luck next time.


The only smear campaign is you as one of the chief Trolls of the Forum against me. Your post regarding my comments is utter nonsense and you know it.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> The only smear campaign is you as one of the chief Trolls of the Forum against me. Your post regarding my comments is utter nonsense and you know it.


I haven't posted in response to any of your comments in months, but nice try.

Only one of us has made demonstrably false statements in this thread - even when Tivo steps up to the plate and responds, you still find it acceptable to take a s$#t on them. I think that's pretty pathetic.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> The only smear campaign is you as one of the chief Trolls of the Forum against me. Your post regarding my comments is utter nonsense and you know it.


you know you are consistently negative on TiVo management. why try and fight who you are


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> TiVo says: We work according to priorities...
> 
> TiVo does not say: The reason we are limited to addressing only _these _priorities is that every time we do something stupid that loses us tens of millions of dollars more (like the New Marketing Plan of 2 yrs ago) it takes money away from development work on software performance enhancements, bug fixes and new features, which might benefit our standalone users who are bringing in an average of nearly $9/mo (per old accounting method.)


This has to be one of the stupidest things I've read.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> TiVo only reads the posts about how wonderful it is, thus perpetuating its self delusion.


Oops, sorry this was the most stupid. This is a negative thread and BOTH Stephen and Pony posted here so how can you statement be construed as anything other than untrue.


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## tough joe (Sep 16, 2006)

I for one dont have any problems with Tivo - i love their products and own 3 tivo's all with lifetime service. they are all set up for mrv and ttg. 

ps. just what does "scurrilous" mean? lol


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

*scurrilous*

Main Entry:
scur·ri·lous 
Pronunciation:
\ˈskər-ə-ləs, ˈskə-rə-\ 
Function:
adjective 
Date:
1576

1 a: using or given to coarse language b: vulgar and evil <scurrilous imposters who used a religious exterior to rob poor people  Edwin Benson>2: containing obscenities, abuse, or slander <scurrilous accusations>
 scur·ri·lous·ly adverb
 scur·ri·lous·ness noun


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## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

ah30k said:


> Oops, sorry this was the most stupid. This is a negative thread and BOTH Stephen and Pony posted here so how can you statement be construed as anything other than untrue.


While I totally agree with you about both statements the facts are that the TiVo Forum unfortunately is full of negative statements.

I saw one the other day where someone had said they were explaining the difference between TiVo and cable DVR's and when the OP said "as soon as I told him about how you can play music from your computer" he said "sold."

Response and I'm paraphrasing here was something like "yeah but they should have some type of search feature for the music."

Negativity rules around here.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

ldudek said:


> Negativity rules around here.


Hatin' is what all the cool kids are doing. Plus, some folks just get a kick out of going into a community of enthusiasts and causing trouble.


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

TrueTurbo said:


> I have to applaud the way you stick with this forum, helping people, answering questions and responding to comments. At times, this forum comes across like it's full of whinging, whining know-it-alls who believe they _officially_ represent all the TiVo owners out there and expect everything they say and ask for to be immediately acted upon. In reality, this forum probably only voices the opinions of a _fraction_ of the total TiVo ownership out there and as is usual with forums like this, speaks mainly for those who are unhappy or have genuine issues. The negativity can get overwhelming!
> 
> Personally, I'm perfectly happy with my TiVoHD. It has it's quirks and over time, I've had to reboot it a few times to clear up some menu and video issues, but overall, it hasn't seriously let me down and it organizes my TV viewing the way I want it to. I like it when new features come along and I'm very happy when bugs are fixed, but I don't presume to demand that TiVo jump when I say jump and build a device to my exact specifications! I don't own the company and until I do, I'll take what I can get as the product evolves over time.
> 
> If ever I get to the point where I don't like the direction TiVo is heading or the service it offers, I'll vote with my cheque book and move on. Until then, add me to the satisfied customer column. Good job TiVo! I can't wait to see what you come up with next. :up:


What he said


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

sommerfeld said:


> my home phone has been using a different voip service for many years. I've called tivo support many times and never had any trouble getting through the touch tone menus.


I have no trouble either. Apparently all VOIP is not equal. The guy should blame his phone service, NOT Tivo.


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Why did it take a negative thread by someone to finally get that info straight from the Ponies mouth?


Because they have jobs at Tivo and can only probably read less than 1 percent of the many thousands of posts every day.


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

bicker said:


> Because scurrilous accusations require response. It's pretty despicable that folks would resort to such scurrilous accusations, though.


I believe this happens because the Tivo lawsuit against Dish has made Tivo some enemies. Hopefully the lawsuit will soon win Tivo some big bucks. They deserve it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HPD said:


> Because they have jobs at Tivo and can only probably read less than 1 percent of the many thousands of posts every day.


I am sure they don't read everything but it is clear that Pony was well aware of the QAM mapping threads and other issues getting attention on this board. I imagine he may even be aware of your history of multiple userids before you settled down some as HPD


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ldudek said:


> While I totally agree with you about both statements the facts are that the TiVo Forum unfortunately is full of negative statements.
> 
> I saw one the other day where someone had said they were explaining the difference between TiVo and cable DVR's and when the OP said "as soon as I told him about how you can play music from your computer" he said "sold."
> 
> ...


I can only speak for myself, but it's frustrating that TiVo has fumbled great opportunities, especially the last few years. The pricing fiasco that HDTiVo mentioned is a good example - it was a disaster for the company. Thankfully they have corrected that, and thankfully they have given ways again to get lifetime on the products.

And just like with the music player comment above, I love that TiVo has a lot more to offer than just recording TV, but they are currently not doing it right, and it's frustrating. The TiVo interface was revolutionary when it came out, and it's still great IMO - for recording and playing back TV. If they are serious about competing with downloads and other media, they HAVE to come up with an interface and functionality that's better than what they currently offer. The basics are there, but they need to execute better. With the competition on the download side, a market that's really just starting to get traction, they can't afford to NOT focus more on that, if they intend to compete.

The latest 9.3 release is at least a start - they moved "Universal Swivel Search" to a better spot in the menu, and the speed of the menus has improved tremendously. But it still feels like a chore to search, there's still a level of resistance there for me, and I'm already sold on it!

I just hope that TiVo can continue cranking out competitive products. They have, IMO, gotten back on the right track recently with the better pricing, the TiVoHD and the 9.3 update.


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

GoHokies! said:


> You honestly think that Tivo would be better served publishing exactly what the planned on doing in future releases, giving competitors time to start working on the same features if they so choose?


You will not get ANY honesty from that smear boy.


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

HDTiVo said:


> The only smear campaign is you as one of the chief Trolls of the Forum against me. Your post regarding my comments is utter nonsense and you know it.


Purely purely purely , just plain wrong. We know what you are up to.


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

GoHokies! said:


> I haven't posted in response to any of your comments in months, but nice try.
> 
> Only one of us has made demonstrably false statements in this thread - even when Tivo steps up to the plate and responds, you still find it acceptable to take a s$#t on them. I think that's pretty pathetic.


P - A - T - H - E - T - I - C is right on.


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

ah30k said:


> This has to be one of the stupidest things I've read.


Just wanted to let you know, I agree.


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

ldudek said:


> While I totally agree with you about both statements the facts are that the TiVo Forum unfortunately is full of negative statements.
> 
> I saw one the other day where someone had said they were explaining the difference between TiVo and cable DVR's and when the OP said "as soon as I told him about how you can play music from your computer" he said "sold."
> 
> ...


I have reading this forum for many years and I can tell you that it was not always like this. The serious negativity finds its roots in the Dish lawsuit. Every cable company offering their own brand of DVR is at risk once the Dish lawsuit is final and they know it. So they are planting doubt in people's minds to try to help put Tivo out of business. Truth is that Tivo has the best DVR. Simple as that.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

TiVoPony said:


> I assume by 'digital setup support for S2' you're referring to the ATSC converter boxes just coming onto the market in advance of next February's cut over for antenna signals (cable is not affected). That's being worked on, but I don't have a date or support plans to share yet.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


If it hasn't been already, this quote needs to be posted in the converter box thread. (edit - and I see that it has. )
That thread has been going on for a while and I'm surprised that it's taken this long for some indication that TiVo is working on it.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Stephen you are usually spot on with your comments but this time I think you are mistaken on at least one point.



TiVoStephen said:


> ...
> Every release of software from the very beginning has always caused a small percentage of customers to have an issue. The primary reason for this is marginal hard drives that are put over the edge by the software update process. Our QE department is about five times bigger than the one we had six years ago, and our testing processes are more automated than ever. Our reliability tests and customer support rates show that each software release gets better in terms of problems like the ones you mention.........


While it may be true that a few customers have hard drives that are marginal and put over the edge by a software update that hasn't been the major problem with the 9.1 update for S2 machines. The problem there was that poorly written software was released either for lack of or -- even worse -- knowingly in spite of proper testing. The fact that the 9.3 update remedies most if not all of the problems introduced by 9.1 on S2 machines is proof of that fact. Not defective hard drives, defective software. For the last six months! Your QE department may be five times bigger and your testing more automated and all that jazz but that sure hasn't been evident in my house for the last half a year.


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## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

MickeS said:


> I can only speak for myself, but it's frustrating that TiVo has fumbled great opportunities, especially the last few years. The pricing fiasco that HDTiVo mentioned is a good example - it was a disaster for the company. Thankfully they have corrected that, and thankfully they have given ways again to get lifetime on the products.


I understand what you are saying about price and the S3 was sky high. But from my perspective it was worth every penny I paid for it at the time.

And I wish I could have had the chance to get lifetime on my S3, let's see what happens when my subscription runs out in another year and a half. Maybe I'll get lucky.

However as far as "fumbling opportunities" I disagree simply because there is no better DVR on the market.



MickeS said:


> The latest 9.3 release is at least a start - they moved "Universal Swivel Search" to a better spot in the menu, and the speed of the menus has improved tremendously. But it still feels like a chore to search, there's still a level of resistance there for me, and I'm already sold on it!
> 
> I just hope that TiVo can continue cranking out competitive products. They have, IMO, gotten back on the right track recently with the better pricing, the TiVoHD and the 9.3 update.


This kind of goes back to my last statement. They do have the best DVR on the market. There is nothing better at this time.

As I'm reading this thread I'm a little in the dark about Dish suing TiVo? I though that was already done and TiVo sued Dish and won. Is something else going on?

I also noticed that Dish in their commercials are flat out saying that their DVR is better then TiVo.


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## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

RoyK said:


> Stephen you are usually spot on with your comments but this time I think you are mistaken on at least one point.
> 
> While it may be true that a few customers have hard drives that are marginal and put over the edge by a software update that hasn't been the major problem with the 9.1 update for S2 machines. The problem there was that poorly written software was released either for lack of or -- even worse -- knowingly in spite of proper testing. The fact that the 9.3 update remedies most if not all of the problems introduced by 9.1 on S2 machines is proof of that fact. Not defective hard drives, defective software. For the last six months! *Your QE department may be five times bigger and your testing more automated and all that jazz but that sure hasn't been evident in my house for the last half a year*.


So that just means you're in the small percentage. Sorry for your bad luck. My S3 works just fine as does my TiVo HD.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

ldudek said:


> I also noticed that Dish in their commercials are flat out saying that their DVR is better then TiVo.


For what its worth, that claim is based on a CNET review.
I don't hold much stock in their opinions, they're probably based on how much ad $$ they get.


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

RoyK said:


> Stephen you are usually spot on with your comments but this time I think you are mistaken on at least one point.
> 
> While it may be true that a few customers have hard drives that are marginal and put over the edge by a software update that hasn't been the major problem with the 9.1 update for S2 machines. The problem there was that poorly written software was released either for lack of or -- even worse -- knowingly in spite of proper testing. The fact that the 9.3 update remedies most if not all of the problems introduced by 9.1 on S2 machines is proof of that fact. Not defective hard drives, defective software. For the last six months! Your QE department may be five times bigger and your testing more automated and all that jazz but that sure hasn't been evident in my house for the last half a year.


I think you are mistaken for the following reasons.

1) New software updates are downloaded to two sections of the hard drive. First, the first section is used. On the second download the second section is used. This means that people with problems on one part of their drives could have problems with every OTHER update.

2) Calling it "poorly written software" when you really have no idea is jumping to conclusions that are possibly wrong.

3) The hardest part on these forums is convincing people it is not the software and to replace their hard drive. As I have taken note of posts for many years, I have seen a reoccurring theme. When someone finally does replace their hard drive, it fixes the problems nearly 100 percent of the time. I have noticed this at least 150 cases.

4) People blaming it on the software, do not stop and think, that if it was the software then every single person on these threads would be experiencing the problem. No matter what problem is reported on these threads, there are always plenty of people reporting that they have not experienced that problem.


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

ldudek said:


> As I'm reading this thread I'm a little in the dark about Dish suing TiVo? I though that was already done and TiVo sued Dish and won. Is something else going on?
> 
> I also noticed that Dish in their commercials are flat out saying that their DVR is better then TiVo.


Within the next few weeks the verdict should become final. Yes, Tivo did win.

As far as I know, Dish came out with an over the air only DVR. One reviewer said it was better than Tivo and Dish is singing the praises of that one reviewer. Fact is that is only one reviewer and opinions are like xxxholes, everybody has one. Second, for all we know, the thieving turds at Dish may very well have paid that reviewer for that review. It happens more than we know.


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

steve614 said:


> For what its worth, that claim is based on a CNET review.
> I don't hold much stock in their opinions, they're probably based on how much ad $$ they get.


And as far as I know, there is only one reviewer that does not take any ad money, their magazine is supported entirely by subscription fees, that would be Consumer Reports. Nobody else that I am aware of has this policy.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

HPD said:


> As far as I know, Dish came out with an over the air only DVR. One reviewer said it was better than Tivo and Dish is singing the praises of that one reviewer.


That is not the Dish recorder (The Sling TR-50) that CNET reviewed that was "better than tivo". I thought it was the VIP 622. 

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-vid...h-network-vip622-hd/4505-6474_7-31778299.html


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## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

greg_burns said:


> That is not the Dish recorder (The Sling TR-50) that CNET reviewed that was "better than tivo". I thought it was the VIP 622.
> 
> http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-vid...h-network-vip622-hd/4505-6474_7-31778299.html


Hmm, now I am a bit confused. I guess I will have to catch up on my reading later. Thanks for the links.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

HPD said:


> I think you are mistaken for the following reasons.
> 
> 1) New software updates are downloaded to two sections of the hard drive. First, the first section is used. On the second download the second section is used. This means that people with problems on one part of their drives could have problems with every OTHER update.


I have 3 boxes all of which have relatively new hard drives. *ALL 3 BOXES* had the same bugs after 9.1 and *ALL 3 Boxes* are now running fine after 9.3. TiVo itself has branded the 9.3 update as a bug fix release. Bug is a politically correct word for defect.

Don't try to feed me the different sector crap. I don't have 3 defective hard drives.


HPD said:


> 2) Calling it "poorly written software" when you really have no idea is jumping to conclusions that are possibly wrong.


What makes you think I have no idea? I made my living in software for over 35 years.



HPD said:


> 3) The hardest part on these forums is convincing people it is not the software and to replace their hard drive. As I have taken note of posts for many years, I have seen a reoccurring theme. When someone finally does replace their hard drive, it fixes the problems nearly 100 percent of the time. I have noticed this at least 150 cases.


Horse Hockey.



HPD said:


> 4) People blaming it on the software, do not stop and think, that if it was the software then every single person on these threads would be experiencing the problem. No matter what problem is reported on these threads, there are always plenty of people reporting that they have not experienced that problem.


And people who know nothing about software make statements like that.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

HPD said:


> 3) The hardest part on these forums is convincing people it is not the software and to replace their hard drive. As I have taken note of posts for many years, I have seen a reoccurring theme. When someone finally does replace their hard drive, it fixes the problems nearly 100 percent of the time. I have noticed this at least 150 cases.


If you've taken note and think there were 150 cases, then you should have no problem pointing us to evidence of even 10 instances of this.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

HPD said:


> 4) People blaming it on the software, do not stop and think, that if it was the software then every single person on these threads would be experiencing the problem. No matter what problem is reported on these threads, there are always plenty of people reporting that they have not experienced that problem.


There are so many variables in use-cases that the fact that not everyone sees the problem is irrelevant. There can be a bug in the way certain mpeg streams are handled and it could affect only a small percentage of users. It could be related to the equipment in the headend and that could vary 100 different ways. I can think of several examples such as the early FiOS bugs where there was significant pixelization that was fixed with a software release.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> I have 3 boxes all of which have relatively new hard drives. *ALL 3 BOXES* had the same bugs after 9.1 and *ALL 3 Boxes* are now running fine after 9.3. TiVo itself has branded the 9.3 update as a bug fix release. Bug is a politically correct word for defect.
> 
> Don't try to feed me the different sector crap. I don't have 3 defective hard drives.


yep, the 7x series and the 9x series did indeed have bugs. both of the initial versions of these releases also had major changes take place within them. 7x introduced TTCB and had TiVocast infrastructure work in it
9x had the large scale task of enabling MRV between series 2 and series 3 and for series 3. Given the different recording format of digital on S3 it was a major overhaul. alos progessive download of tiVocast was out in.

given my years in software it would have been a miracle if there were not bugs in the initial releases. Also TiVo has a BOATLOAD of use cases given them being 3rd party and hooking up to many cable plants and other hardware.

What TiVo does a good job of is pulling in all the defects prioritizing them and getting them fixed. :up:
some things do go low on the priority list and what we see in the forum is the small number of people with those issues posting a large percentage of the bug posts.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Anyone who thinks they can tell the actual quality of software code without actually _seeing _the code, unless they've written software code to do the exact same thing in the exact same environment, is deluding themselves.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> Anyone who thinks they can tell the actual quality of software code without actually _seeing _the code, unless they've written software code to do the exact same thing in the exact same environment, is deluding themselves.


buy you can see the quality of the results of running the code. The problem here of course is discerning what is a result of code and what is a result of hardware issues and/or environment issues like cable company signal or a bad install of the update(corrupted indexes in the database is one of my leading suspects for slow performance) etc..


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> buy you can see the quality of the results of running the code. The problem here of course is discerning what is a result of code and what is a result of hardware issues and/or environment issues like cable company signal or a bad install of the update(corrupted indexes in the database is one of my leading suspects for slow performance) etc..


When 3 units in one household are "fixed" at the same time by only updating the software there's no doubt where the problem lies. If it works now and it didn't before then it was defective before - pure and simple.

Quality software works and works well. Software that doesn't work well isn't quality software.

No delusion here.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> buy you can see the quality of the results of running the code.


Yes, definitely, but that still doesn't indicate whether the code is "poorly written software". Given bad _circumstances_, even the best written software can result in incredibly poor "quality of the results of running the code".



ZeoTiVo said:


> The problem here of course is discerning what is a result of code and what is a result of hardware issues and/or environment issues like cable company signal or a bad install of the update(corrupted indexes in the database is one of my leading suspects for slow performance) etc..


Or a prohibitively unfortunate conflict between what people want things to do/be and the available technology.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> Or a prohibitively unfortunate conflict between what people want things to do/be and the available technology.


yes*, and it is important to note that even well written software can have bad results when the implementation is wrong.

take for example a JSP page to show the data in table in a database. The design seems straightforward -

some might do a whole bunch of string manipulation to parse the SQL results and then plug the array of strings into a table output. The String manipulation might be a flawless use of StringBuffers, substrings and tokenizers, String arrays set to exact numbers to elimnate resizing overhead, etc..

but all that well written code is nothing to the speed of just using some HTML format tags and local variables in a for loop over the SQL resultset to just spit it out and let the HTML engine do the display. It just does not give the ability to manipulate the data as much.

Code always gets better when you get to go back and tweak things, especially once you have a better handle on what it is the code is trying to do as any 7.3 or 9.3 is. TiVo is full of human beings who are doing some complex stuff. This is not adding folders to 3.x on an S1 they are doing anymore.

You want a fast bug free PC - then use Dos 3.3 and apps written for that. Otherwise with complexity comes "bugs" in even the best written code.

* though I am not really sure what "prohibitively unfortunate" is about.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ....Code always gets better when you get to go back and tweak things, especially once you have a better handle on what it is the code is trying to do as any 7.3 or 9.3 is. TiVo is full of human beings who are doing some complex stuff. This is not adding folders to 3.x on an S1 they are doing anymore....


I might buy the argument that speeding up the Now Playing navigation after the extensive changes to accommodate S3 transfers is tweaking but fixing software so that it doesn't lock up periodically when the menus are navigated, so that when you select the "Stop Transfer" menu item it stops the transfer every time and not just 80% if the time, the "Stop Recording" menu item always stops the recording, not just most of the time, the menus in Record by Channel correctly display the programming for the displayed time, date, and channel, queued transfers always transfer without having to reboot the machine, & etc. is not "tweaking things". It is fixing things that are basic to the system that should have been fixed *before *the release. Those things are not rocket science.


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

RoyK said:


> *When 3 units in one household are "fixed" at the same time by only updating the software there's no doubt where the problem lies.* If it works now and it didn't before then it was defective before - pure and simple.
> 
> Quality software works and works well. Software that doesn't work well isn't quality software.
> 
> No delusion here.


One could argue there is one other possible source of the problem. Your household! You seem to be suffering a lot of issues with all your machines that a lot of other people are not experiencing. It's perfectly understandable that you would assume the old software is bad from your own personal experiences, but have you stopped to consider why a lot of other people with the same software didn't suffer like you did?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

TrueTurbo said:


> One could argue there is one other possible source of the problem. Your household! You seem to be suffering a lot of issues with all your machines that a lot of other people are not experiencing. It's perfectly understandable that you would assume the old software is bad from your own personal experiences, but have you stopped to consider why a lot of other people with the same software didn't suffer like you did?


Funny that the new software (which is a bug fix update) fixed it, isn't it?

To be fair since I am retired and my wife is a semi invalid we probably use our equipment more every day than the average family. And I admit that I'm likely more sensitive to these things than most and less likely to be accepting of substandard performance. But then why as a paying customer should I accept without complaint substandard performance? I shouldn't and I won't.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I'm sure not a software guy but I do know that tivo apparently has a beta testing program. THere's other CE euipment with software/firmware that I have that has no such thing. Even with the customers begging for it.

THe problem I guess with tivo is that now a days with the likely thousands of potentially combinations of HDMI equiped tvs, cable head end setups, various line conditions, different conbinations of tivo hardware for mrv, different users susing different features etc etc. - That to get a statistically large enough beta sampling to hit all the potential combinations with enough testers to find all the possible bugs they they might just need to put beta code on ever last uesers box. Myself I dont feel like running beta code all the time so I'll put up with their current system where they apparently have a small sample to find the bigger bugs and then make periodic updates throughout the year as they find problems in the larger population.

Also, I have used beta PC software in the past and the people that I was testing for decided at some point that they had to ship so they fixed all the glaring bugs and decided to leave some of the lessor ones till a maintence release. I think that's fairly normal- no? Don't new releases of windows usually shipped with piles and piles of piles of known bugs that they plan to get later?

Not saying all the bugs people stumble on are minor but some they might know exist but figure they aren't that big a deal and can wait till the x.3 release to get fixed.

Again not a software guy so be gentle if that's plain stupid- LOL


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## Solver (Feb 17, 2005)

Tivo has a huge alpha/beta force that would be more than willing to pretest their software for free. They just rarely use it.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Solver said:


> Tivo has a huge alpha/beta force that would be more than willing to pretest their software for free. They just rarely use it.


What makes you say that? I thought Tivo did use their beta program.

www.tivo.com/beta


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> I might buy the argument that speeding up the Now Playing navigation after the extensive changes to accommodate S3 transfers is tweaking but fixing software





> so that it doesn't lock up periodically when the menus are navigated,
> 
> so that when you select the "Stop Transfer" menu item it stops the transfer every time and not just 80% if the time,
> 
> ...


Not rocket science but these are the very kinds of things that start to go haywire when resoruces like memory and CPU are on the edge. Do you think 20% of the time it goes through some other code path to stop a transfer nad that is where the bug is? Intermittent problems like this are the very hallmark of resources gone bad.

The indexing of the database on the TiVo would also affect such things if it got corrupted and then push performance closer to the edge.

I submit that inded you are not suffering from bugs but from some larger issue that is harer to ascertain.

Just like re-installing the exact smae windows code on 3 PCs will help them again run faster and fix up some bugs that have cropped up via use - then that may well have happened for your DVRs with the install of the update.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> I'm sure not a software guy but I do know that tivo apparently has a beta testing program. THere's other CE euipment with software/firmware that I have that has no such thing. Even with the customers begging for it.
> 
> THe problem I guess with tivo is that now a days with the likely thousands of potentially combinations of HDMI equiped tvs, cable head end setups, various line conditions, different conbinations of tivo hardware for mrv, different users susing different features etc etc. - That to get a statistically large enough beta sampling to hit all the potential combinations with enough testers to find all the possible bugs they they might just need to put beta code on ever last uesers box. Myself I dont feel like running beta code all the time so I'll put up with their current system where they apparently have a small sample to find the bigger bugs and then make periodic updates throughout the year as they find problems in the larger population.
> 
> ...


pretty much right on the money actually :up:


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## Solver (Feb 17, 2005)

greg_burns said:


> What makes you say that? I thought Tivo did use their beta program.
> 
> www.tivo.com/beta


They do use beta testers. The number of pretesters that are used are small compared to the potential.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ...
> I submit that inded you are not suffering from bugs but from some larger issue that is harer to ascertain.


Yep. I expect things I pay for to work and work well.



ZeoTiVo said:


> Just like re-installing the exact smae windows code on 3 PCs will help them again run faster and fix up some bugs that have cropped up via use - then that may well have happened for your DVRs with the install of the update.


Are you kidding me? That's a stretch even for you.
All those things have been reported by others and all have been fixed. The bugs didn't crop up via use - they were there on days one and two of the 9.1 release. If they were due to resources gone bad, so what? Still shouldn't have happened, did happen, undoubtedly happened in testing prior to release. And none of them had a thing to do with third parties like cable companies, external hardware, etc etc.

The software now appears to be working quite well. I'm going to enjoy the next six months without further comment. Then comes the fall update and I expect we'll be having a very similar discussion again for the following half a year.

'nuff said by me.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Solver said:


> They do use beta testers. The number of pretesters that are used are small compared to the potential.


not to be argumentative but how do you know such a thing- have you gotten a chart from tivo with the number of beta testers they use compared to applicants?

Or are you extrapolating because you applied and for whatever reason they haven't picked you?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

RoyK said:


> ...
> 
> The software now appears to be working quite well. I'm going to enjoy the next six months without further comment. Then comes the fall update and I expect we'll be having a very similar discussion again for the following half a year.
> 
> 'nuff said by me.


made me laugh- but likely true. Come the fall we'll probably get 10.1 with HD downloads with mpeg4, mahjong, and a sports-ticker and there will be a list of bugs. Then 10.3 will come out later and all will be well.

My personal opinion (we've all got 'em like rear ends) is that I'll put up with the occasional non-deadly bugs so that we get the new features. If the thing locked up all the time I'd be pissed. But needing to stop a transfer twice on occasion or having it loose it's place in a list at times isn't enough to make me want to not ever get new features. That's just my opinion and we're all entitled to our own.


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## joemamafresh (Jan 26, 2003)

*i've had 9.3 for several days now and have had zero problems...i LOVE it actually! and, i love TiVo too! they rock...they are THE best! *


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Yep. I expect things I pay for to work and work well.
> 
> Are you kidding me? That's a stretch even for you.
> All those things have been reported by others and all have been fixed. The bugs didn't crop up via use - they were there on days one and two of the 9.1 release. If they were due to resources gone bad, so what? Still shouldn't have happened, did happen, undoubtedly happened in testing prior to release. And none of them had a thing to do with third parties like cable companies, external hardware, etc etc.
> ...


If I install windows and a bad driver install happens then it does not work right from day one. is that the problem of Windows code or driver code? possibly, but sometimes the 1 and 0 just get fubared. And it could be for a lot of reasons. If I saw posts all over the place about the problems you listed then that is something else to consider - but I and many others experienced NONE of the porblems you listed. Did I somehow get better code than you did?

anyway, I am glad your TiVos are running smooth now. the problems you had are indeed core functions and would be very annoying, to say the least. So we can disagree on the root cause all we want but as you imply will never find it just chatting in a forum


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## s2kdave (Jan 28, 2005)

Solver said:


> Tivo has a huge alpha/beta force that would be more than willing to pretest their software for free. They just rarely use it.


How do you know they rarely use it? Anyone that is part of a beta isn't allowed to say they were so you might just not hear about it.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MickeS said:


> The pricing fiasco that HDTiVo mentioned is a good example - it was a disaster for the company.


You might have mentioned that from day one of that move I called it for what it was, and I´ve had a long track record of accurately predicting long in advance the results of such moves by TiVo. 

My most recent comments back in the fall about the Nov pricing strategy was that I generally liked the move but specifically questioned with concern the MSD shift. It just so happens that MSD softness was specifically cited by TiVo as affecting their GA results.

As far as negativity, my lowest estimate for GA in Q4 was 120K which I mentioned in a comment shortly after Q3 results, but never published anything more. TiVo came in nearly 10% below that number. Unfortunately reality is usually more negative for TiVo than I am in my predictions. 

I am satisfied by my outstanding track record and not bothered (much ) by critics who rarely if ever have been correct.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ah30k said:


> Oops, sorry this was the most stupid. This is a negative thread and BOTH Stephen and Pony posted here so how can you statement be construed as anything other than untrue.


Considering the emoticon, that Stephen had already posted, and that I refer to Stephen´s post in that same post of mine - clearly establishing I was aware of Stephen´s post - you win most stupid hands down.



HPD said:


> Now you are just being a plain Jane XXXhole. Do you really think we cannot see your agenda?


Who is this idiot???????


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

s2kdave said:


> How do you know they rarely use it? Anyone that is part of a beta isn't allowed to say they were so you might just not hear about it.


+1 I'd like to see a shred of evidence for solver's ridiculous claims.



HDTiVo said:


> Considering the emoticon, that Stephen had already posted, and that I refer to Stephen´s post in that same post of mine - clearly establishing I was aware of Stephen´s post - you win most stupid hands down.


Then why make the demonstrably false statement that they only post in positive threads in the first place? 


> Who is this idiot???????


As much as you and I disagree, that's something both of us can agree on! :up: I haven't seen HPD/netsurfer/bobneth/George Winston (? -help me guys, my memory is slipping on some of the others) bring anything of value to the conversation. I guess there is something to that "fanboy" thing you folks talk about after all.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HPD said:


> Now you are just being a plain Jane XXXhole. Do you really think we cannot see your agenda?





HDTiVo said:


> Who is this idiot???????


he is some stock troll from the yahoo boards - he came in under about 3 other userids that got banned but settled down enough on this HPD id to stay under the radar even though he clearly has broken multiple ID rule.

He is the odd troll out in that he pumps up TiVo in order to downgrade DISH as much as possible. He will say anything and trying to engage in any actual debate with this poster is fruitless, of course.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> THe problem I guess with tivo is that now a days with the likely thousands of potentially combinations of HDMI equiped tvs, cable head end setups, various line conditions, different conbinations of tivo hardware for mrv, different users susing different features etc etc. - That to get a statistically large enough beta sampling to hit all the potential combinations with enough testers to find all the possible bugs they they might just need to put beta code on ever last uesers box.


Oh no! Not the Microsoft argument! Tivo's hopefully not struggling to achieve the reliability of Windows, are they? Tivo's system is much more closed, it should be a no-brainer to be better than Windows. Probably more like a Mac. Unfortunately, Macs have quite a few bugs as well. And I'm sure they beta test. Releasing buggy products is the new norm.

As far as what is a bug or not, a half second delay in pushing a button is annoying and could be "improved". A 30 second delay in pushing any button is a bug and would be "fixed". You can argue about where the magical cutoff is, and there is a lot of gray area, which is why most companies label them all as bugs and rank them based on severity. The same goes for new functionality as well.

As far as FINALLY getting a semi-official response for the various issues and possible improvements, Tivo's on shaky ground here. I'm not asking them to divulge their roadmap. Many of the issues that were FINALLY commented on were minor in nature and are not on the roadmap. I think people are just asking for a one sentence summary of whether these features will ever be supported, or if they are under investigation or not. If not, the forum will probably come up with a plan "B" on its own. This is how the S1 DST fix came about.

It's nice Tivo employees post here -- maybe we're all spoiled. And Tivo does eventually fix the bugs. My only two complaints are:

1. More brief statements wherever possible on the larger threads and issues. Even if you have to add a disclaimer. Sometimes simply acknowledging the problem goes a long way. And it should cut down on the number of tech. support calls.

2. Shorter release times for software updates. Especially for bug fixes. Six months is simply too long for such a complex product (a list of improvements with the new release would be nice as well). It also gives the impression you don't care, which is (fortunately) a false one.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> Oh no! Not the Microsoft argument! Tivo's hopefully not struggling to achieve the reliability of Windows, are they? Tivo's system is much more closed, it should be a no-brainer to be better than Windows. Probably more like a Mac. Unfortunately, Macs have quite a few bugs as well. And I'm sure they beta test. Releasing buggy products is the new norm.
> 
> As far as what is a bug or not, a half second delay in pushing a button is annoying and could be "improved". A 30 second delay in pushing any button is a bug and would be "fixed". You can argue about where the magical cutoff is, and there is a lot of gray area, which is why most companies label them all as bugs and rank them based on severity. The same goes for new functionality as well.
> ....


wouldn't want to imply AT ALL that becoming more like the redmond borg is a good thing. Just pointing out that a huge company with a billion more man hours per release still pushes stuff out the door with known bugs. And that at some point you have to draw a line. I dont know that it's now acceptable to release bugs- I think now things are orders and orders of magnitude more complex then they were in the "good old days" and so it takes longer to code and there's many more places that bugs could exist (again the last bit of code I wrote was in BASIC when that existed to teach kids how to play with code so I have no real world experience)

as you point out it's all gray- myself I'll put up with a 30 second delay at CERTAIN screens so that I can get new features. Hell sometimes it takes what seems like 20 minutes to reorder season passes and I put up with that.

I think at some point in the release cycle pretty much any company with a complex product decides to focus on deadly type bugs like lockups and reboots and things that are cosmetic, performance slowdowns, or just plain annoying get pushed to the next release. I dont think that's so wrong- but obviously some do. My opinion (and again everyone can have their own so it's fine to disagree)- as an example -having to stop a video download twice one out of 5 times is not a deadly bug but rather a pain in the rear that is very rarely encountered (how many transfers is the everage user going to abort over the course of the 6 months between releases? 10? So 2 times over 6 months they get aggrevated and have to stop something again that should have stopped already. I've never seen that bug- but honestly maybe I've only stopped 4 transfers in the past 6 months so maybe I haven't hit the lucky 5th time. If you found that bug at the end of the beta testing, would you hold up a software release another week or 2 to fix that? Some obviously would- my vote is I would not- I'd rather get the new features 2 weeks early and waste 30 seconds over the next 6 months when i have to stop a transfer twice instead on the 1 time it does take.

By the shades of gray argument- releasing amazon unbox without progressive downloads so that fat pipe users had to wait till the download completed could be a bug. I dont use unbox all that much myself, but I'm glad they released that inital version so I at least had that option.

But again to each his own.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> ....
> 
> My opinion (and again everyone can have their own so it's fine to disagree)- as an example -having to stop a video download twice one out of 5 times is not a deadly bug but rather a pain in the rear that is very rarely encountered (how many transfers is the everage user going to abort over the course of the 6 months between releases? 10? So 2 times over 6 months they get aggrevated and have to stop something again that should have stopped already. ...


Quite often actually in our case. For example I have season's passes set up on one of our machines for all the flavors of "Law & Order". We transfer them to the living room to watch. Quite often we start to watch one and realize we've already seen it so want to cancel the transfer.

It wasn't that we had to hit the stop twice 20% of the time or so. You could hit it a hundred times and it wouldn't stop. Finally found a work-around that if you exit to Live TV then go back into the NPL you can stop it. That's a PITA.

Fortunately that seems to be history now.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

RoyK said:


> Quite often actually in our case. For example I have season's passes set up on one of our machines for all the flavors of "Law & Order". We transfer them to the living room to watch. Quite often we start to watch one and realize we've already seen it so want to cancel the transfer.
> 
> It wasn't that we had to hit the stop twice 20% of the time or so. You could hit it a hundred times and it wouldn't stop. Finally found a work-around that if you exit to Live TV then go back into the NPL you can stop it. That's a PITA.
> 
> Fortunately that seems to be history now.


glad it's fixed for you. I dont happen to use my tivo's that way (I'm anal so I record jsut about everything on both) so it never bit me. If i was stuck like you then maybe i'd think differently about getting whatever it was we did last fall.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> glad it's fixed for you. I dont happen to use my tivo's that way (I'm anal so I record jsut about everything on both) so it never bit me. If i was stuck like you then maybe i'd think differently about getting whatever it was we did last fall.


Sorry, I just don't understand what you said.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

RoyK said:


> Sorry, I just don't understand what you said.


I said rather then putting season passes for law and order on ONE machine- I set up all my machines to get it. My season pass list is eassentially the same on all the machines- i just fiddle with the order. The only time I need to MRV is therefore when there is a 3way conflict and the 3rd show out is on the other machine. So I dont MRV all the time like it sounds like you do. Hence I dont have a need to start and stop MRV all the time and therefore never notcied the issue of the course of 6 months.

the rest of the post I was attempting to be polite and say if I used my tivo's in the manner you did then maybe I would be as bent as you appear to be from your posts.


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## h00ligan (Nov 29, 2007)

without reading through the whole thread, to the OP, i agree totally. I came backt o tivo after 5 or so years and it has changed for the worse, for many reasons you cite.. but mostly due to their constant need to play feature catch up at the expense of reliability.


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## h00ligan (Nov 29, 2007)

MichaelK said:


> not to be argumentative but how do you know such a thing- have you gotten a chart from tivo with the number of beta testers they use compared to applicants?
> 
> Or are you extrapolating because you applied and for whatever reason they haven't picked you?


well based on the current software release, I would argue they have a huge beta group.. everyone with a series 3 tivo.. and as a bonus, we get to pay to be beta testers.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> I said rather then putting season passes for law and order on ONE machine- I set up all my machines to get it. My season pass list is eassentially the same on all the machines- i just fiddle with the order. The only time I need to MRV is therefore when there is a 3way conflict and the 3rd show out is on the other machine. So I dont MRV all the time like it sounds like you do. Hence I dont have a need to start and stop MRV all the time and therefore never notcied the issue of the course of 6 months.
> 
> the rest of the post I was attempting to be polite and say if I used my tivo's in the manner you did then maybe I would be as bent as you appear to be from your posts.


Ahh, I understand. Well I guess one way to avoid MRV problems is to not use it.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

RoyK said:


> Ahh, I understand. Well I guess one way to avoid MRV problems is to not use it.


yep- laughing. 

My provider is lovely and marks EVERY digital channel 0x02 so all I can MRV anyway is analog or Broadcast tv. 

So I kind of have to have a big reduntant mess and have to record most shows whereever I might want to watch. Thank goodness for 750gb esata drives!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

h00ligan said:


> well based on the current software release, I would argue they have a huge beta group.. everyone with a series 3 tivo.. and as a bonus, we get to pay to be beta testers.


while I get your point- you dont know about being an unwitting beta tester untill you deal with sirius sat radio and their recording receivers. I got one of the first generation (S50) as soon as they came out- assumed it would act like a tivo for radio. Well the UI sucked and they apparently weren't wise enough to use a tivo or an ipod for 3 minutes to steal some UI concepts. But plenty of devices have crappy UI's. Those radios completely sucked- lock ups, bricking, not working in a normal range of outdoor temperatures even though they were portable and had car docks, etc , etc. Got the second generation the S100 as it had improved features and I figured they would use the first device as a earning tool- In some ways it was better but others it was actually worse.

So trust me- I know tivo might have some annoying quirky bugs left in but unlike some other devices the thing works, doesn't blow up, doesn't brick itself regularly, and on and on. Tivo's core features at least work. How many times do you see threads that tivo messes up and doesn't record things all the time- you basically dont- the thing just records what you want and it does that core thing fairly well. How often do you see threads about shows disappearing for now reason- you dont. How often do you read about boxes locking up or rebooting on there own - probably more than we should but it's really not as often as these annoying bugs that do exist a bunch.

So if it does some annoying behaviors outside of that core functionality- I myself am willing to put up with a certain amount of that to get new features sooner. Maybe others aren't. Unfortately I guess the choice for the folks that really hate it is to save some cash on monthly fees and get a cable company DVR, use dish or directv's house brands. Or get an MS media center PC and see what bugs are all about. Not so many good options....


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

TiVoStephen said:


> Greg,
> 
> Sorry to hear you haven't had a good experience. Are there any outstanding issues you need resolved? If so, please drop me a line at [email protected] and we will take care of any issue.
> 
> ...


How many companies are willing to do this? This has always been one of my favorite things about Tivo. I have never had a major problem but it is nice to know that if I do I can email someone directly who will try to take care of the issue. I have NEVER seen any other company do anything like this!


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## CheezWiz (Dec 30, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> last official thing I saw.
> 
> calls over voip are not supported.
> 
> ...


You have a crappy VOIP provider. Charter VOIP supports fax machines, computer modems, E911 service, etc... That is not a Tivo issue...

For instance, Vonage sucks and does not even support home alarm systems or DirecTV or Fax machines...


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

MichaelK said:


> while I get your point- you dont know about being an unwitting beta tester untill you deal with sirius sat radio and their recording receivers. I got one of the first generation (S50) as soon as they came out- assumed it would act like a tivo for radio. Well the UI sucked and they apparently weren't wise enough to use a tivo or an ipod for 3 minutes to steal some UI concepts. But plenty of devices have crappy UI's. Those radios completely sucked- lock ups, bricking, not working in a normal range of outdoor temperatures even though they were portable and had car docks, etc , etc. Got the second generation the S100 as it had improved features and I figured they would use the first device as a earning tool- In some ways it was better but others it was actually worse.
> 
> So trust me- I know tivo might have some annoying quirky bugs left in but unlike some other devices the thing works, doesn't blow up, doesn't brick itself regularly, and on and on. Tivo's core features at least work. How many times do you see threads that tivo messes up and doesn't record things all the time- you basically dont- the thing just records what you want and it does that core thing fairly well. How often do you see threads about shows disappearing for now reason- you dont. How often do you read about boxes locking up or rebooting on there own - probably more than we should but it's really not as often as these annoying bugs that do exist a bunch.
> 
> So if it does some annoying behaviors outside of that core functionality- I myself am willing to put up with a certain amount of that to get new features sooner. Maybe others aren't. Unfortately I guess the choice for the folks that really hate it is to save some cash on monthly fees and get a cable company DVR, use dish or directv's house brands. Or get an MS media center PC and see what bugs are all about. Not so many good options....


This is *exactly* how I feel about all this too! The core functionality of my TiVoHD and the TD+ Software on XP and Vista works perfectly for me. Everything else is icing on the cake. Whenever I've tried the frilly stuff, it has worked almost all the time. I've encountered the odd quirk, but nothing that diminishes my enjoyment of the product in any way. I know the software will evolve and get even better over time and I'd be happy to test things out for them if it meant getting to play with new features as they come along.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

TiVoPony said:


> I'm sorry you feel we've become more secretive, having been here from day one I'd argue that's not the case.


Tivo, Inc. has always been rather secretive. There's at least two reasons for no release notes... (1) Someone would actually have to generate it. It's been my experience (over many years) that engineers hate even commenting their check-ins. Getting them to add notes to a Release Note, is like pulling teeth. And (2) enumerating dozens (hundreds, thousands) of bugs as fixed can send an alarming signal... to fix a thousand bugs, there had to _be_ a thousand bugs.



> Longevity does not equal priority though. ... when prioritized against other things, it's often pretty low on the list. ... That doesn't mean that they automatically get set aside, or that TiVo is ignoring or doesn't care about those customers.


I'm sorry, but that's a BS marketing answer. From a practical engineering stance, there's no effective difference between dropping something from the list and always putting it at the bottom. As an engineer, I (and my coworkers) question why things are on the list if they're always at the bottom of the pile and never get any attention. However, the marketing weanies love crap like that; they'll keep things on the list for decades -- the longer the list the better.

Speaking as a (non-cable) S3 owner, you certainly are ignoring us when it comes to M-Stream support. Is the hardware physically capable? Apparently, it is. However it's not supported (as was promised back before M-Cards were available) because Tivo, Inc. will not assign the engineering resources to make it work. And short of a court order, doesn't look they ever will... it'll never get any priority if it won't drive some revenue; one cannot increase revenues for things that aren't sold anymore. (The S1 SA's have been effectively abandoned for several years. The DST change wouldn't have been fixed if an end user ("tivo hacker") hadn't fixed it themselves. Yet, the code was obviously fixed because it was sent to the S1 DTV's -- across sat, thus at no cost to Tivo, Inc. If it had been coded to use standard *NIX time functions, the "patch" would've been a half dozen zoneinfo files totaling ~30k, but no, tivo engineers had to reinvent that wheel, probablly multiple times, and hardwire timezone information directly into a 4MB+ uber-app.)

[I'll never forgive them for taking away "frowning tivo". Thus, they shall forever be known as Marketing Weanies(tm)]


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

CheezWiz said:


> You have a crappy VOIP provider. Charter VOIP supports fax machines, computer modems, E911 service, etc... That is not a Tivo issue...
> 
> For instance, Vonage sucks and does not even support home alarm systems or DirecTV or Fax machines...


since we're wondering off point anyway.

may very well be my provider is crap.

But 
E911 is completely unrelated.

And
directv, home alarms, and fax machines though are not indicators of anything.

If I understand the problem with voip is that sometimes (maybe the crappy providers) can't send high speed modem communications. The problem if I remember correctly is that the tivo's modem wont slow down to 14.4 and so if the voip doesn't support 28.8 you are out of luck (tivo can jump in here to correct me). Fax machines, directv, and alarms all probably work just fine at 14.4 and some even at 9600. So just because all that works means nothing for a high speed modem like found in a tivo.

Actually- now that I remember more it may be that tivo can ratchet down to 14.4 but MANY dialup POPS will no longer accept such calls. Before evdo and all the modern data plans/systems there were certain cell phones that you could use to act like a modem on cdma networks. I had a qaulcomm YEARS ago (mabe even 6 years ago) that did it- in fact I was a very early user and had problems getting into my dial up provider over the phone. I actually worked with some of the engineers at qualcomm that made the chips to try and trouble shoot. Eventually we found that the dial up providers had locked some modems to refuse to negotiate down to 14.4 and that was the fastest speed that CDMA could deal with at the time so although the technology worked certian POP numbers wouldn't.

assuming that's the same problem with VOIP- then tivo really has no control since they buy someone elses dialup service. And also it might be hit or miss for the users depending on if the local POP supports 14.4 or not.

we now return you to the previous program- bickering over tivo's downward spiral....


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cramer said:


> I'm sorry, but that's a BS marketing answer. From a practical engineering stance, there's no effective difference between dropping something from the list and always putting it at the bottom. As an engineer, I (and my coworkers) question why things are on the list if they're always at the bottom of the pile and never get any attention.


maybe because the customers, as the subset here in the forums has amply demonstrated, have not dropped the request for that feature.

The only impact marketing has had is to say "No, we really won't sell that many more TiVo DVRs if we spend the resources to add in FSI" these other thing should be done first to get the best bang for the resources. So sure TiVoPony has effectively said don't look for this feature to be included in some release - but he also gave us the specific reason for that to make the context clearer for those that really want it.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

the the free space indicator specifically- someone has made an HME app to do it. I stumpled upon one of the FSI threads the other day searchign for something else that did it.

I dont know what tivo doesn't pay the guy 500 bucks for rights, doll it up, and then host it on their server so they can stop the complaints about that.

Sometimes their marketing folks dont appear to be all that wise...


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> If I understand the problem with voip is that sometimes (maybe the crappy providers) can't send high speed modem communications. The problem if I remember correctly is that the tivo's modem wont slow down to 14.4 and so if the voip doesn't support 28.8 you are out of luck (tivo can jump in here to correct me). Fax machines, directv, and alarms all probably work just fine at 14.4 and some even at 9600. So just because all that works means nothing for a high speed modem like found in a tivo.
> 
> Actually- now that I remember more it may be that tivo can ratchet down to 14.4 but MANY dialup POPS will no longer accept such calls. Before evdo and all the modern data plans/systems there were certain cell phones that you could use to act like a modem on cdma networks. I had a qaulcomm YEARS ago (mabe even 6 years ago) that did it- in fact I was a very early user and had problems getting into my dial up provider over the phone. I actually worked with some of the engineers at qualcomm that made the chips to try and trouble shoot. Eventually we found that the dial up providers had locked some modems to refuse to negotiate down to 14.4 and that was the fastest speed that CDMA could deal with at the time so although the technology worked certian POP numbers wouldn't.
> 
> assuming that's the same problem with VOIP- then tivo really has no control since they buy someone elses dialup service. And also it might be hit or miss for the users depending on if the local POP supports 14.4 or not.




Why would TiVo waste even a second contemplating supporting VOIP MODEM CONNECTIONS when they support broadband, both wired and wireless, and ANY PERSON USING VOIP ALREADY HAS BROADBAND?



No wonder TiVo ignores feature ideas from this forum....


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> Why would TiVo waste even a second contemplating supporting VOIP MODEM CONNECTIONS when they support broadband, both wired and wireless, and ANY PERSON USING VOIP ALREADY HAS BROADBAND?
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder TiVo ignores feature ideas from this forum....


I said exactly the same thing on the first page.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6148165#post6148165

some how we wondered off track discussing voip's ability to act like a POTS- But what feature request was involved in the discussion?

anyway- later on in the thread someone explained that apparently the problem the OP was talking about has NOTHING to do with the daily data calls. It's that the prompt system tivo's support provider doesn't recognize voice commands nor does it default to get you a human if you dont press a key it recognizes. So the feature request would be to have the support provider upgrade their system to accept voice commands or more simply put in the default to bump to a human after x seconds of no initial response.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> the the free space indicator specifically- someone has made an HME app to do it. I stumpled upon one of the FSI threads the other day searchign for something else that did it.
> 
> I dont know what tivo doesn't pay the guy 500 bucks for rights, doll it up, and then host it on their server so they can stop the complaints about that.
> 
> Sometimes their marketing folks dont appear to be all that wise...


because then TiVo has to fully support it and that costs money and resource time - the very reason the FSI drops to the bottom. Now people that really want the FSI can set this up. Sure it is not simply visible in the menu without doing anything else but at that point it becomes calls into the CSRs. It does not show the correct space for me. Why is their SD and HD? Do I add them togther?

TiVo is smarter than that and created the way for 3rd parties to do all the resource work and field all the questions. TiVo saves a LOT of resource time throughout the org.

I would much rather see them spend time on improving/expanding the public interfaces for HME versus work on specific little features.
TiVo also could setup the server and bandwidth to host some of these HME apps. TiVo keeps the uptime and bandwidth at a commercial level to satisfy the good running of the apps and the 3rd parties go through a vetting process for quality and updates delivery. That way Tivo resources are spred over lots of added features instead of just one.
The official server becomes a URL on the TiVo menu.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

i guess that makes sense. But they take on other things from 3rd parties that they wind up having to deal with. There's a recent thread about the rocketboom tivocast being flakey and someone from tivo enve posted how rocketboom is a pain in their rear.

Also- what support is there for skull and crossbones, the hot or not or other HME apps that tivo puts up- do they really even need to support them? 

I guess you are right in the end some of the people that complain incessantly here about it will complain incessantly that it doesn't fit their needs and fill up the support lines with their complaints...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> i guess that makes sense. But they take on other things from 3rd parties that they wind up having to deal with. There's a recent thread about the rocketboom tivocast being flakey and someone from tivo enve posted how rocketboom is a pain in their rear.
> 
> Also- what support is there for skull and crossbones, the hot or not or other HME apps that tivo puts up- do they really even need to support them?
> 
> I guess you are right in the end some of the people that complain incessantly here about it will complain incessantly that it doesn't fit their needs and fill up the support lines with their complaints...


ah yes - two levels here. Skull and Bones is offiically a TiVo app, along with samegame adn one other I think. they have not changed in a long time 
Are you hot was written by our illustrious TiVoPony but is his own thing and it sits at TiVoapps.com which is also not officially a TiVo server site. But a proof of concept of what could be.

maybe TiVo could make you add in the URL (like you need to do for TiVoapps)for this server to help draw the distinction these are 3rd party apps.


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## ZildjianKX (Jun 11, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> ...M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers, both are in fact very small numbers of subscribers. That doesn't mean that they automatically get set aside, or that TiVo is ignoring or doesn't care about those customers. But it is a consideration when trading off those features against others (M-Card for S3 is technically possible, but also technically very complex. We've learned that there is a lot of risk inherent in that development).


M-Card support for the S3 may not be a signifigant portion of your subscribers, but why should that matter? *It's a significant portion of ALL S3 owners!!!* Every S3 owner who uses it with cable has this problem. You should be supporting a product you shipped (at a very high premium) regardless of how much of your subscriber base it consists of. Why punish the early adopters who paid more?

Not fixing this problem is costing me $21.48 a year. If a cable company charges a user $5/month for the additional cable card, it costs them an extra $60 a year just because TiVo won't impliment a feature that they promised. And before someone says it wasn't promised, the back of my S3 says Single or Multi-Stream for the bottom slot. I bought my S3 knowing TiVo will fix the M-card issue, but it just pisses me off that I'm still paying extra every month for being an early adopter when the cheaper, lower end model came out with a fix and now I hear they won't fix the issue because it isn't cost effective. This is beyond bothering me. TiVo is actively costing me money each month.

How about fixing an issue that bothers your customers so they keep their service and buy new hardware in the future? I can't justify buying a new TiVo model in the future or renewing my service when I know you haven't fixed basic issues that bother me with my current model.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

ZildjianKX said:


> If a cable company charges a user $5/month for the additional cable card, it costs them an extra $60 a year just because TiVo won't impliment a feature that they promised. And before someone says it wasn't promised, the back of my S3 says Single or Multi-Stream for the bottom slot. I bought my S3 knowing TiVo will fix the M-card issue....


1. You ASSUMED they would fix the issue. That's your problem. Almost all products are sold as-is. Even the ones that aren't have problems (see "Microsoft Vista compatible" PC lawsuit.)

2. Tivo works with M-cards. You just need two of them. The box doesn't say that. It just says that M-cards will perform a basic level of functionality. Also note there is nothing on the box explicitly mentioning SDV or PPV or VOD.

Early adopters do pay a price -- several in fact. They pay a lot of money for a product with bugs and undeveloped features, and not all of those features will be fully implemented. This may or may not be intentional, but in the future just don't be an early adopter.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

BobCamp1 said:


> 1. You ASSUMED they would fix the issue. That's your problem. Almost all products are sold as-is. Even the ones that aren't have problems (see "Microsoft Vista compatible" PC lawsuit.)
> 
> 2. Tivo works with M-cards. You just need two of them. The box doesn't say that. It just says that M-cards will perform a basic level of functionality. Also note there is nothing on the box explicitly mentioning SDV or PPV or VOD.
> 
> Early adopters do pay a price -- several in fact. They pay a lot of money for a product with bugs and undeveloped features, and not all of those features will be fully implemented. This may or may not be intentional, but in the future just don't be an early adopter.


Oh please, don't make like we were crazy for assuming the MCard would work in M-mode. I know darn well I have no legal standing to expect M-Mode support but everyone surely expected it to eventually be there (and by eventually I mean well before now).


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## ZildjianKX (Jun 11, 2004)

ah30k said:


> Oh please, don't make like we were crazy for assuming the MCard would work in M-Card mode. I know darn well I have no legal standing to expect M-Mode support but everyone surely expected it to eventually be there (and by eventually I mean well before now).


Agreed. Plus the monthly fees I pay, I expect there to be software updates to fix my issues.

It's like the iPhone thing. Monthly revenue can be used to provide free software updates to add features, etc.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ah30k said:


> Oh please, don't make like we were crazy for assuming the MCard would work in M-mode. I know darn well I have no legal standing to expect M-Mode support but everyone surely expected it to eventually be there (and by eventually I mean well before now).


Yeah, I certainly expected TiVo to enable the M-mode, although it was never (AFAIK) promised. But I've owned a lot of electronics that advertised future features (even had labels for them, like the S3 has for the M Card) that never materialized, so I won't be too surprised if it never happens.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Maybe it wasn´t too smart to mention the M-card thing in the first place.  



MichaelK said:


> Sometimes their marketing folks dont appear to be all that wise...


How can you say such a thing!  



ah30k said:


> Oh please, don't make like we were crazy for assuming the MCard would work in M-mode. I know darn well I have no legal standing to expect M-Mode support but everyone surely expected it to eventually be there (and by eventually I mean well before now).


Didn´t someone say I was stupid when I mentioned resources being taken away from things paying customers might rightly expect??????


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ZildjianKX said:


> And before someone says it wasn't promised, the back of my S3 says Single or Multi-Stream for the bottom slot.


Does it really? That back of my S3 bought Oct '06 doesn't say anything about multi-stream unlike that photo (of a demo unit?)


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## h00ligan (Nov 29, 2007)

MichaelK said:


> Tivo's core features at least work. How many times do you see threads that tivo messes up and doesn't record things all the time- you basically dont- the thing just records what you want and it does that core thing fairly well. How often do you see threads about shows disappearing for now reason- you dont. How often do you read about boxes locking up or rebooting on there own - probably more than we should but it's really not as often as these annoying bugs that do exist a bunch.
> 
> So if it does some annoying behaviors outside of that core functionality- I myself am willing to put up with a certain amount of that to get new features sooner. Maybe others aren't. Unfortately I guess the choice for the folks that really hate it is to save some cash on monthly fees and get a cable company DVR, use dish or directv's house brands. Or get an MS media center PC and see what bugs are all about. Not so many good options....





TrueTurbo said:


> This is *exactly* how I feel about all this too! The core functionality of my TiVoHD and the TD+ Software on XP and Vista works perfectly for me. Everything else is icing on the cake. Whenever I've tried the frilly stuff, it has worked almost all the time. I've encountered the odd quirk, but nothing that diminishes my enjoyment of the product in any way. I know the software will evolve and get even better over time and I'd be happy to test things out for them if it meant getting to play with new features as they come along.


TiVo's Core doesn't work. Having to reboot my dvr twice a day or miss programs is not core functionality working. Were it desktop client issues, or slow menus - something like that i wouldn't be as annoyed, but it is a failure to record programs, which is the function of tivo to begin with.

I have, with no exaggeration, rebooted both of my tivos twice a day for the last week due to the grey screen and failure to record. So yah, i'd say that should take the freaking focus over adding YOUTUBE. Or maybe.. native divx or h264 support should too?

I stand by my thought that feature creep has seriously decreased tivo reliability. I never had issues like this 5 years ago, ever.

And to the tivo employee that posted, I appreciate your time. That said, automated testing being in greater play could be the exact cause of the issue, not a benefit. As a former QA manager I know absolutely that automated testing misses things that humans don't.


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## ZildjianKX (Jun 11, 2004)

greg_burns said:


> Does it really? That back of my S3 bought Oct '06 doesn't say anything about multi-stream unlike that photo (of a demo unit?)


I bought mine in April '07, it says it on the back of mine.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ZildjianKX said:


> I bought mine in April '07, it says it on the back of mine.


Hmmm. You would have thought if they took the time to add it then they must have planned to support it at one point. Must have been them dang marketing people again.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

greg_burns said:


> Hmmm. You would have thought if they took the time to add it then they must have planned to support it at one point. Must have been them dang marketing people again.


Didn´t you cut a big whole in the back right there so you could run a cable from the motherboard outside to use an external RAID as your main drive?


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## ZildjianKX (Jun 11, 2004)

Actually, I'm going to have to go home and look at my series 3 now... maybe I'm wrong and I'm just thinking of the marketing pics I saw... the review on cnet.com doesn't show that below the first card slot.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> Didn´t you cut a big whole in the back right there so you could run a cable from the motherboard outside to use an external RAID as your main drive?


Shhhh! 

Megazone's S3 pics still have the green plastic and you can't see around them. But you can tell it is different.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

ZildjianKX said:


> I bought mine in April '07, it says it on the back of mine.


Mine too.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> Didn´t someone say I was stupid when I mentioned resources being taken away from things paying customers might rightly expect??????


No I said


HDTiVo said:


> Tivo doesn't say: The reason we are limited to addressing only these priorities is that every time we do something stupid that loses us tens of millions of dollars more ... it takes money away from development work ...


was stupid. Like the only reason development teams ever set priorities is that marketing makes poor decisions.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ah30k said:


> No I said was stupid. Like the only reason development teams ever set priorities is that marketing makes poor decisions.


The correct response would have been "i´m sorry."

Not some lame defense insinuating I might be so stupid as to think "the only reason development teams ever set priorities is that marketing makes poor decisions"


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> The correct response would have been "i´m sorry."
> 
> Not some lame defense insinuating I might be so stupid as to think "the only reason development teams ever set priorities is that marketing makes poor decisions"


Either 1) there are priorities and things drop off the bottom or 2) you do everything. There is no middle ground. You said they can't do everything (ie only these things) because they lost money. Go re-read the quote you made.


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

h00ligan said:


> TiVo's Core doesn't work. Having to reboot my dvr twice a day or miss programs is not core functionality working.


This just means *your* core functionality doesn't work! Just because you are having issues with your TiVo doesn't mean everyone has a problem.

My TiVoHD hasn't missed a recording yet and I have around 30 season passes set up. As I've said in other posts, I have had a few issues with messed up menus when I've browsed around some of the more obscure TiVo features and I've had to reboot to fix it, but so far, the _core_ functionality has never let me down. Sounds to me like you may have a dodgy TiVo machine that needs some service.


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## h00ligan (Nov 29, 2007)

TrueTurbo said:


> This just means *your* core functionality doesn't work! Just because you are having issues with your TiVo doesn't mean everyone has a problem.
> 
> My TiVoHD hasn't missed a recording yet and I have around 30 season passes set up. As I've said in other posts, I have had a few issues with messed up menus when I've browsed around some of the more obscure TiVo features and I've had to reboot to fix it, but so far, the _core_ functionality has never let me down. Sounds to me like you may have a dodgy TiVo machine that needs some service.


TEEVOOOOOOOOOOS as it TWO... this is not an isolated issue, it's affecting almost everyone in Arizona for example, who uses tivo HD and cable cards... the 9.3 update forces a reset of the cards that precludes the reboot apparently, but leaves partials and missing pieces.....so.. meh, better than nothing but not fixed.

Two machines, Cox customer, scientific atlanta cable cards.. not the same issue as isolated motorola. There are a lot of people with this issue, it IS core functionality, and not just mine. Failure to retain channels and allow recording on a REGULAR basis (read, 10 times a week) is a big deal. If I don't check both tivos on a regular basis i miss shows. Even with a proactive reboot 2x a day the issue is not prevented. It can still happen.

The answer there for you was "oh, i failed to realize there were widespread issues with tivo hd at present, sorry" not to try to back the argument with more logical fallacy.


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

h00ligan said:


> TEEVOOOOOOOOOOS as it TWO... this is not an isolated issue, it's affecting almost everyone in Arizona for example, who uses tivo HD and cable cards... the 9.3 update forces a reset of the cards that precludes the reboot apparently, but leaves partials and missing pieces.....so.. meh, better than nothing but not fixed.
> 
> Two machines, Cox customer, scientific atlanta cable cards.. not the same issue as isolated motorola. There are a lot of people with this issue, it IS core functionality, and not just mine. Failure to retain channels and allow recording on a REGULAR basis (read, 10 times a week) is a big deal. If I don't check both tivos on a regular basis i miss shows. Even with a proactive reboot 2x a day the issue is not prevented. It can still happen.
> 
> The answer there for you was "oh, i failed to realize there were widespread issues with tivo hd at present, sorry" not to try to back the argument with more logical fallacy.


OK, fair enough. The fact that my machine is working fine is probably because I got a buggy software release that was meant to not work in the first place. TiVo must have forgotten to set the software bit that makes my TiVoHD run like yours and all the others you mention. Sorry. I feel ashamed that my core software is actually working. I can only hope a future release shafts my machine like yours, then I'll be able to join in the misery.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

should we start a thread on this thread's


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZildjianKX said:


> M-Card support for the S3 may not be a signifigant portion of your subscribers, but why should that matter? It's a significant portion of ALL S3 owners!!!


This kind of assertion is meaningless, overall. Everyone thinks their problem is more important than anything else their suppliers have to do.



ZildjianKX said:


> Every S3 owner who uses it with cable has this problem.


I'm an S3 owner. I don't have a problem. And I think that highlights a bit of the problem with your complaint: You see a problem where there isn't one. Instead, you have a desire. The fact that you have an unfulfilled desire does not make it a problem.



ZildjianKX said:


> You should be supporting a product you shipped (at a very high premium) regardless of how much of your subscriber base it consists of. Why punish the early adopters who paid more?


I just received 9.3. I am being supported.



ZildjianKX said:


> Not fixing this problem is costing me $21.48 a year.


Here's the real issue. You don't want to spend money. Why not just say that you don't *want *to spend money instead of calling the fact you need to a "problem"?  I'll tell you why: You want to make your concern sound more important than it really is. If your intent is to manipulate, then that's a good tactic, but just make sure you don't start believing your own bs. Recognize that you aren't entitled -- you just want.



ZildjianKX said:


> If a cable company charges a user $5/month for the additional cable card, it costs them an extra $60 a year just because TiVo won't impliment a feature that they promised.


I'm an S3 owner. I was never promised anything like what you are claiming here. I don't believe you. I think you're making things up in your own mind (like the reference you made to the writing on the back of the S3). That isn't a promise. If you pervert such things into promises in your own mind you'll continually be disappointed with life.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Yeah, I certainly expected TiVo to enable the M-mode, although it was never (AFAIK) promised. But I've owned a lot of electronics that advertised future features (even had labels for them, like the S3 has for the M Card) that never materialized, so I won't be too surprised if it never happens.


+3/4 -- I took off a 1/4 because you should never expect anything. Caveat emptor....

It was never promised: no paper insert in each box, no sticker saying "Full support of Multi-stream cards a future feature", or no mention of it on their official website. If I saw the words "S3 will fully support M-cards" on a potato chip or piece of toast, I think I would believe that more than whatever the back of the unit or the picture of the unit on the box says.

Sometimes the engineers say they can implement a feature anytime they want. And then when they actually try to do it they realize they can't. Then customer support has to clean up the small mess. There have been countless examples of this in the past. There's nothing special about Tivo that would exclude them.


----------



## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

I think the eSata port is another comparable example. Everyone fully expected it to be turned on. Luckily it eventually was. But had it not, would I be crying unfair? No.


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## ZildjianKX (Jun 11, 2004)

bicker said:


> This kind of assertion is meaningless, overall. Everyone thinks their problem is more important than anything else their suppliers have to do.


My point was very valid regarding TiVo Pony's assertion that it doesn't affect many people. It does.



bicker said:


> I'm an S3 owner. I don't have a problem. And I think that highlights a bit of the problem with your complaint: You see a problem where there isn't one. Instead, you have a desire. The fact that you have an unfulfilled desire does not make it a problem.





Webster said:


> 2 a: an intricate unsettled question b: a source of perplexity, distress, or vexation c: difficulty in understanding or accepting


I have a problem.



bicker said:


> Here's the real issue. You don't want to spend money. Why not just say that you don't *want *to spend money instead of calling the fact you need to a "problem"?  I'll tell you why: You want to make your concern sound more important than it really is. If your intent is to manipulate, then that's a good tactic, but just make sure you don't start believing your own bs. Recognize that you aren't entitled -- you just want.


Really, there is no reason to be so rude. I don't mind spending money. I hate WASTING money. A second cable card is wasting money. I don't think you can say many S3 owners don't like to spend money, especially if they paid around $800 for it originally.



bicker said:


> I'm an S3 owner. I was never promised anything like what you are claiming here. I don't believe you. I think you're making things up in your own mind (like the reference you made to the writing on the back of the S3). That isn't a promise. If you pervert such things into promises in your own mind you'll continually be disappointed with life.


Honestly, I don't care what you think. Here is Jim Denney from TiVo talking about M-card support:
http://www.technologyevangelist.com/2007/01/ces_jim_denny_tivo.html

Benjamin Higginbotham: What about, right now the series3 uses the CableCARD the stand of their original form CableCARD 1 and it will take 2 single stream cards or one multi-steam card, but it's&#8230;

Jim Denney: Right now its only two single stream cards. The platform is capable of multi-steam card technically capable, you need to go through certification. We are in the midst of going through that certification now.

Any consumer who bought a S3 after reading that should rightly be disappointed. Everything TiVo said before I bought my S3 said M-Card support was coming.

Feel free to respond, I won't be.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ZildjianKX said:


> My point was very valid regarding TiVo Pony's assertion that it doesn't affect many people. It does.
> 
> I have a problem.


 I beleive TiVoPony was speaking in terms of percentage of TiVo Customers that have an S3 and would want to use an M-card in it. So your current count of 1  does not qualify as many. Also S3 did not sell like even TiVo HD did. I think you need to show how the number is many of TiVo customer's. TiVo inc. in the form of TiVoPony is indicating it is not many. I think they have specific data for their assertion.


> Everything TiVo said before I bought my S3 said M-Card support was coming.
> 
> Feel free to respond, I won't be.


Sure you have a legitimate problem and yes everyone, including TiVo inc. was expecting to enable M-cards on the S3. TiVo is very aware that customers are not happy there is no S3 M-card support available.

However you need to bear in mind the full statement - that TiVo ran into technical difficulty enabling M-card support and the path they found to overcome that is technically risky - meaning they are likely to introduce more bugs while fixing M-card support and then the S3 has bigger problems than having to use two Scards or 2 Mcards in single stream mode.

All some people are saying here, and I agree with the thought, is that sometimes a company simply can not provide the fix. Reality is what it is and life is sometimes not fair.


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## ZildjianKX (Jun 11, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I beleive TiVoPony was speaking in terms of percentage of TiVo Customers that have an S3 and would want to use an M-card in it. So your current count of 1  does not qualify as many. Also S3 did not sell like even TiVo HD did. I think you need to show how the number is many of TiVo customer's. TiVo inc. in the form of TiVoPony is indicating it is not many. I think they have specific data for their assertion.
> 
> Sure you have a legitimate problem and yes everyone, including TiVo inc. was expecting to enable M-cards on the S3. TiVo is very aware that customers are not happy there is no S3 M-card support available.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your great and nice reply.

I agree with everything you said 100%.

As a customer, I'd simply be happy if TiVo came out and said exactly what you said, and just say that we're sorry, but it's not happening.

I know TiVo Pony's original assertion was regarding user base, but my main gripe is that it is being brushed aside simply because of the % of the user base it is, even though it was a very large percentage of all S3 users. It does worry me when something can be fixed and it's not simply because of the user base size. If a model doesn't sell well in the future, can we expect less bug fixes?

Thanks again for your response.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ZildjianKX said:


> As a customer, I'd simply be happy if TiVo came out and said exactly what you said, and just say that we're sorry, but it's not happening.


Most public companies rarely do a press release on their shortcomings  It would indeed be refreshing and welcome by me as well.
I think what we heard from TiVoPony is as good as it will get. At least we have this forum and his post here to finally have the full scoop.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

h00ligan said:


> TiVo's Core doesn't work. Having to reboot my dvr twice a day or miss programs is not core functionality working. Were it desktop client issues, or slow menus - something like that i wouldn't be as annoyed, but it is a failure to record programs, which is the function of tivo to begin with.
> 
> I have, with no exaggeration, rebooted both of my tivos twice a day for the last week due to the grey screen and failure to record. So yah, i'd say that should take the freaking focus over adding YOUTUBE. Or maybe.. native divx or h264 support should too?
> 
> ...


i dont doubt YOU may have a problem- but needing to reboot twice a day to get the box to work is not the experience of the VAST majority of people. although it's impossible to say one way or theother- i'd say that considering people with problems are much more likely to post if the issues effected tons of people there would likely be many many more posts about it then we have if these issues were widespread.

having to reboot twice a day - actually might be indicative of a hard drive problem..


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

h00ligan said:


> TEEVOOOOOOOOOOS as it TWO... this is not an isolated issue, it's affecting almost everyone in Arizona for example, who uses tivo HD and cable cards... the 9.3 update forces a reset of the cards that precludes the reboot apparently, but leaves partials and missing pieces.....so.. meh, better than nothing but not fixed.
> 
> Two machines, Cox customer, scientific atlanta cable cards.. not the same issue as isolated motorola. There are a lot of people with this issue, it IS core functionality, and not just mine. Failure to retain channels and allow recording on a REGULAR basis (read, 10 times a week) is a big deal. If I don't check both tivos on a regular basis i miss shows. Even with a proactive reboot 2x a day the issue is not prevented. It can still happen.
> 
> The answer there for you was "oh, i failed to realize there were widespread issues with tivo hd at present, sorry" not to try to back the argument with more logical fallacy.


oh- now that you add some more infor- it appears there is a widespread problem on a COX AZ system that uses SA cards. weather or not that's a lot of people is still hard to tell.

does this effect all SA folks? Then it's much more widespread?

if it's all SA cards then I'd say "sorry- i didn't know everyoen with SA has an issue because luckily I have moto for a headend".

Even then- my understanding of the issue is limited (again I'm lucky to have moto apparently)- but I thougth the issue is a problem with SA cards and tivo has a work around in teh current sopftware but the fundemental issue is the SA cards act wonky- is that not the case?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=389603

has some other mention of this SA card issue...


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

ZildjianKX said:


> My point was very valid regarding TiVo Pony's assertion that it doesn't affect many people. It does.


Really, it does?

If you're so sure of that, I'm sure that you wouldn't mind sharing your data to back up that claim.



> Any consumer who bought a S3 after reading that should rightly be disappointed. Everything TiVo said before I bought my S3 said M-Card support was coming.


No it didn't - it said that they were working on it. Certification != a rubber stamp process.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZildjianKX said:


> My point was very valid regarding TiVo Pony's assertion that it doesn't affect many people. It does.


TiVo gets to determine what number is "many". The number of S3 owners is smaller than the number of HD owners, and some S3 owners use OTA exclusively, and some S3 owners don't consider this a serious issue.

Their house, their rules.



ZildjianKX said:


> bicker said:
> 
> 
> > ZildjianKX said:
> ...


Okay, that's better.



ZildjianKX said:


> Really, there is no reason to be so rude.


Please don't confuse hard, cold reality with rudeness.



ZildjianKX said:


> Honestly, I don't care what you think.


You actually do, because what I "think" is what is the reality of the situation, and you are affected by that reality. And if you think what Jim Denney said was actually a promise, then you need to re-evaluate your standards for promises, because that was not a promise.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> All some people are saying here, and I agree with the thought, is that sometimes a company simply can not provide the fix. Reality is what it is and life is sometimes not fair.


:up: :up:


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> (M-Card for S3 is technically possible, but also technically very complex. We've learned that there is a lot of risk inherent in that development).


Where do the "reinterpretations" of the specific meaning of this come from?


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> Where do the "reinterpretations" of the specific meaning of this come from?




What reinterpretations are you talking about? I thought that Pony's statement was pretty straightforward. M-Card on the S3 is hard. Harder than we thought it would be. There's a not-insignificant chance that we can spend a lot of time and money on this and not be able to implement it.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised we never see M-card on the S3 - I'm cool with that, as the cost of 2 S-cards isn't that much, and I'd rather see Tivo spend their scarce time and effort on projects that are more likely to work and would benefit more subscribers than just the S3 userbase.


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## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

GoHokies! said:


> What reinterpretations are you talking about? I thought that Pony's statement was pretty straightforward. M-Card on the S3 is hard. Harder than we thought it would be. There's a not-insignificant chance that we can spend a lot of time and money on this and not be able to implement it.


I understood that and I think Pony made that comment a while back. However if you haven't noticed (and I'm sure you have) There seems to be some forum members who don't appreciate having an employee who is permitted to share info in this forum. So no matter what Pony says it's either "not clear" or "secretive". It seems nothing ever makes these people happy.

I would love to see a forum somewhere on the web where either a Motorola or S.A. rep comes in and talks to people. And I'm not talking about a certain "beta tester" in another forum. It just doesn't happen. I wouldn't have found out about the desk top update without Pony's announcement.



GoHokies! said:


> That said, I wouldn't be surprised we never see M-card on the S3 - I'm cool with that, as the cost of 2 S-cards isn't that much, and I'd rather see Tivo spend their scarce time and effort on projects that are more likely to work and would benefit more subscribers than just the S3 userbase.


Some areas are already offering only "M" cards. Are those people just SOL? It was my understanding for sometime now that M cards would work with the S3, if they don't then TiVo needs to fix this. You can't just market a product that some people paid 900.00 and a year and a half later say "gee, we didn't know it was going to be this tough."

On the other hand maybe the cable companies shouldn't carry just "M" cards alone. But if S cards are not being manufactured anymore, and I'm not saying the ther arn't, that could be a big problem.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ldudek said:


> Some areas are already offering only "M" cards. Are those people just SOL? It was my understanding for sometime now that M cards would work with the S3, if they don't then TiVo needs to fix this. You can't just market a product that some people paid 900.00 and a year and a half later say "gee, we didn't know it was going to be this tough."


"M" cards work with the S3. You just need two!


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## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

greg_burns said:


> "M" cards work with the S3. You just need two!


You see that's where I get confused. I read here in the "FAQ" that two M cards work but then I read that they don't, at least that's how I interpreted Pony's comment. Maybe I misunderstood what he meant. If that case put me in the "not clear" crowd I mentioned. I still say however that I appreciate anytime Pony comes in and says something.

Clearly I understand that M cards cannot be used for two way communication on either the S3 or TiVo HD. I know that 2 S cards work on the TiVo HD because I have one and a S3.

So maybe I just don't understand what the heck everyone is expecting.

And I believe I have seen you post before that two M cards work. But I know someone who is having problems with 2 M cards in the S3.

Is there anyone out there that has 2 M cards in their S3 that can verify they work?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

The TiVoHD works with either 1 M Card or 2 S cards for full functionality.
The S3 requires 2 M cards or 2 S cards for the same functionality.


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## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

RoyK said:


> The TiVoHD works with either 1 M Card or 2 S cards for full functionality.
> The S3 requires 2 M cards or 2 S cards for the same functionality.


Yes, I understand that is the way it is supose to work. I have a TiVo HD with two S cards in it. My S3 has two S cards in it. Greg_Burns said that the S3 will work with 2 M cards in it. FAQ says the S3 will work with 2 M cards in it. So why you just posted something everybody else has already said I don't understand.

I am not getting the discussion about the problem Pony is talking about with the M card and the S3. I asked someone who has a TiVo S3 with two M cards to respond. Either that or someone make it clear just what the heck the problem is.


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*QAM mapping*
is apparently not in the interest of Evil Cable Companies.

Losing the increased profit per household of requiring a higher service tier is unacceptable to TiVo, Inc. business partners.. At one time TiVo was 'customer friendly', lately they have become 'partner friendly' at the expense of consumers...


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

ldudek said:


> Either that or someone make it clear just what the heck the problem is.


No one but TiVo knows the problem. The symptom is that S3 owners can't get by with a single M-Card.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ldudek said:


> Yes, I understand that is the way it is supose to work. I have a TiVo HD with two S cards in it. My S3 has two S cards in it. Greg_Burns said that the S3 will work with 2 M cards in it. FAQ says the S3 will work with 2 M cards in it. So why you just posted something everybody else has already said I don't understand.
> 
> I am not getting the discussion about the problem Pony is talking about with the M card and the S3. I asked someone who has a TiVo S3 with two M cards to respond. Either that or someone make it clear just what the heck the problem is.


The problem is that TiVo is unable/unwilling to commit the resources to make the S3 work with ONE M card like the TiVoHD can.

Exactly why its so difficult would be impossible to say unless one were an engineer intimately familiar with the inner workings of the box but there must be enough difference that it is not a simple task. Likely that was noted and designed around in the later TiVoHD.

For the S3 user the problem is that he can't rent a single M card but must rent two (at twice the cost) from the cable company.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

RoyK said:


> The problem is that TiVo is unable/unwilling to commit the resources to make the S3 work with ONE M card like the TiVoHD can.


I'm not sure why you seem to think that's a problem - the "risk" part of Pony's post implies that if they were to dedicate those resources, there's still a large probability of failure and that whatever needs to be worked around can't by done via software alone.

That being the case, while I would prefer to have a single M-card in my S3, I'd much rather have 2 M-cards (or 2 S-cards) and whatever those development resources are diverted to by choosing not to further pursue M-card functionality.

ldudek, don't know if this is helpful for you, but when an M-card is inserted into a device that doesn't support M-cards (such as the S3), they "fall back" into S-card mode and act exactly like an S-card, which is why 2 M-cards will work in an S3 (presumeably this means that one M- and one S-card should also work ???). The problem is getting the S3 to tell the card that "hey, I'm M-card capable" and get the card to work _properly_ as an M-card.


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## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

RoyK said:


> The problem is that TiVo is unable/unwilling to commit the resources to make the S3 work with ONE M card like the TiVoHD can.
> 
> Exactly why its so difficult would be impossible to say unless one were an engineer intimately familiar with the inner workings of the box but there must be enough difference that it is not a simple task. Likely that was noted and designed around in the later TiVoHD.
> 
> For the S3 user the problem is that he can't rent a single M card but must rent two (at twice the cost) from the cable company.


OK now I get it. Some people want the S3, which was never designed to work with a single card to work like the TiVo HD.

I have to go along with Go Hokies! on this. I don't see the complaint. You knew when you purchased the S3 it required two cards. Now you want TiVo to somehow make the S3 do what TiVo HD can do? How do you know if the hardware is even capable of doing something like that?

And to make me even less sympathetic my TiVo HD has 2 S cards in it. My cable company apparently didn't have M cards available, but I'm not upset about it. It's just the way it is and since the TiVo HD works fine with the two S cards I say if it ain't broke don't fix it. Besides I've got plenty of other things to be upset with my cable company to even consider the M card an issue.

Also Go Hokies! thanks for the explanation on how the M card works. I know it's capable of up to 6 streams but if the hardware only allows one then that's all it puts out.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> I'm not sure why you seem to think that's a problem - the "risk" part of Pony's post implies ...


It isn't a problem for me. I don't have an S3 (or TiVoHD). "Problem" was referred to in ldudek's post and I was trying to explain it to him.



> I am not getting the discussion about the problem Pony is talking about...


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Yes, but the problem that Pony was talking about and that ldudke was asking about is different from the problem of Tivo not dedicating resources to fix the technical problem that Pony was talking about. (geez, that's confusing)


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

It also isn't a problem for me, because Comcast here only charges me for 1 of my 2 S cards.


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## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

greg_burns said:


> It also isn't a problem for me, because Comcast here only charges me for 1 of my 2 S cards.


That's "Comcastic!"

Bad joke, I know:down:


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> Yes, but the problem that Pony was talking about and that ldudke was asking about is different from the problem of Tivo not dedicating resources to fix the technical problem that Pony was talking about. (geez, that's confusing)


Yeah. Thats the problem.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ldudek said:


> There seems to be some forum members who don't appreciate having an employee who is permitted to share info in this forum.


I don't think it is that they don't appreciate having an employee sharing info: I think they're just frustrated that the truth he's delivering isn't what they want to hear (read).



ldudek said:


> I would love to see a forum somewhere on the web where either a Motorola or S.A. rep comes in and talks to people. And I'm not talking about a certain "beta tester" in another forum. It just doesn't happen.


And to some extent, I marvel as TiVo's willingness to allow this, especially in light of how these TiVo employees are treated online, sometimes. In a way, I wonder if TiVo is well-served by allowing this (even though I'm sure *we* _are_). I've worked with about three dozen consumer-facing technology products and services companies in my career (typically as a _recurring_ consultant or auditor, so I've gotten a really good view of each), and this sort of thing would be an anathema to most.



ldudek said:


> Some areas are already offering only "M" cards. Are those people just SOL? It was my understanding for sometime now that M cards would work with the S3, if they don't then TiVo needs to fix this.


AFAIK, the S3 works fine with two M-cards.



ldudek said:


> You can't just market a product that some people paid 900.00 and a year and a half later say "gee, we didn't know it was going to be this tough."


Actually, yes you can, and should if the technical challenges of providing *upgrades *proves so completely beyond the potential benefits. A company's only obligation is to address issues whereby the product doesn't do exactly what it used to do, in the terms that the company used to describe its function. So if the S3 was billed as requiring two S-cards, and suddenly S-cards were made illegal, that would not be TiVo's "fault", and TiVo should only undertake efforts to address the issue if they predict a positive return on their investment for doing so. In the case of the S2DT, it was billed as requiring analog cable service for dual-tuner capability. TiVo is not reasonably expected to make up for the fact that any specific subscribe can no longer get analog cable service. And so on...


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

ldudek said:


> OK now I get it. Some people want the S3, which was never designed to work with a single card to work like the TiVo HD.


Without seeing the design documents you don't know what it was designed to do. I suspect that it *was* designed to work with a single M-Card but implementation problems came up that prevented it from working. They went so far as defining labeling for the unit and instructions that if you were using a single M-Card to put it in the bottom.


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## MANOWAR© (Mar 6, 2005)

To all the TiVo complainers out there, did you actually READ THE MANUAL before you set it up? If no, go back and try that.

I'm on my 2nd TiVo (HD model) and I never had ANY issues with the first (S2). I just wanted the HD capability now. I researched it here first, then ordered it. I got it in the mail, opened it up and read the manual while I waited for the cable guy to bring my Mcard out. Showed him how to properly install and set it up (once again, thanks to the forum here) and have been running error free since then. :up:


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ah30k said:


> Without seeing the design documents you don't know what it was designed to do. I suspect that it *was* designed to work with a single M-Card but implementation problems came up that prevented it from working.


From an engineering standpoint, the job of design is not completed until successful prototype implementation. You almost always need to make changes to design of new technology while proving it in. Given that, until the first (prototype) M-card was available, nothing could technically be "design*ed*"_ (past tense) _to use it. And I bet that really crystallizes what happened in this case: It seemed like it was do-able based on assumptions about the environment it had to operate within, but those assumptions were inaccurate, and so when they finally finished designing the S3, it turned out that it _actually wasn't_ designed to work with M-cards.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Bicker,
Let me re-phrase then. I believe that the Marketing Specs and Engineering Product Specs had the support of M-Mode in them.

Which, in my opinion, does not fit the tone of "never designed to handle M-Mode".


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

greg_burns said:


> "M" cards work with the S3. You just need two!


The Series 3 does not support M-Cards. M-Cards just happen to be backwards compatible and still work in a single stream device.

In other words, the Series 3 DOESN'T support M-Cards. The M-Card supports single stream devices such as the Series 3.


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## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

ah30k said:


> Without seeing the design documents you don't know what it was designed to do. I suspect that it *was* designed to work with a single M-Card but implementation problems came up that prevented it from working. They went so far as defining labeling for the unit and instructions that if you were using a single M-Card to put it in the bottom.


Well, without seeing the documents you don't know what it was designed to do either. I suspect it wasn't. You suspect it was. And it always said two cards, I never saw anything that said one card. So either of us could be right.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

ldudek said:


> Well, without seeing the documents you don't know what it was designed to do either. I suspect it wasn't. You suspect it was. And it always said two cards, I never saw anything that said one card. So either of us could be right.


Here is a CES 2006 video interview with Pony who said "One Multi-Stream Card or Two Single-Stream cards" within the first couple of minutes of the video.

http://www.gearlive.com/videocast/gearlivetivoseries3.mp4

Certainly not a proprietary design document, but enough for me to believe it was originally intended to support M-Mode.


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## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

ah30k said:


> Here is a CES 2006 video interview with Pony who said "One Multi-Stream Card or Two Single-Stream cards" within the first couple of minutes of the video.
> 
> http://www.gearlive.com/videocast/gearlivetivoseries3.mp4
> 
> Certainly not a proprietary design document, but enough for me to believe it was originally intended to support M-Mode.


I couldn't get the link to work but OK, I'll take your word for it just because you said it and quite honestly I don't feel like getting into an argument over this thing.

We all know now the the S3 does not work with just one card. Case closed.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bigguy126 said:


> I can confirm what the poster said re: VIOP phones not working. When I had Verizon voicewing service, I could not call tivo support. The tivo phone system would not understand me pressing "2" (or whatever number it was) for Tivo support. I had to call back with a cell phone.


If that's what's meant, then it's not an uncommon problem. It's also not TiVo's problem. I have Vonage service, and there are a number of ARU systems which don't work well with my Vonage ATA. Indeed, one of them is the one my company provides, and providing phone service is what we do for a living! If you or the OP is having trouble getting ARU responses to work with your VOIP phone, then you need to call your VOIP provider. There's nothing the ARU owner can do about it, but there may be something your VOIP provider can do about it. Either way, the problem almost surely lies with your VOIP ATA, not with the ARU.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bicker said:


> From an engineering standpoint, the job of design is not completed until successful prototype implementation... but those assumptions were inaccurate, and so when they finally finished designing the S3, it turned out that it _actually wasn't_ designed to work with M-cards.


That's splitting some pretty fine hairs, if you ask me. Regardless, I think the salient points are:

1. The S3 cannot provide two tuner support on a single CableCard.
2. Public statements, although forward looking, were made concerning the eventual ability of the unit to provide this capability.
3. Most, if not all, S3 owners would like very much for TiVo to make good on what was apparently their intent.
4. According to statements made by TiVo, this is much more problematical than expected. I have the distinct impression it's the card reader hardware itself which is faulty, and even if their OEM provider agrees to swap out the modules for little or no cash - which is unlikely - TiVo is still looking at a large amount of money to implement a retrofit program.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ldudek said:


> I couldn't get the link to work but OK, I'll take your word for it just because you said it


Well, he doesn't quite specifically say one can get two tuner support with an M-card, but that's certainly the impression one would get listening to the video. He says, "...if you have a single multi-stream card, you can plug that in, or if you don't have access to a multi-stream, you can plug in two single stream cards."

I really don't think he was hedging his bets, however.  I believe they really intended to S3 to work with M-cards.



ldudek said:


> We all know now the the S3 does not work with just one card. Case closed.


Well, it does work with a single card, or even with no cards, it just doesn't have the full functionality most of us expected with an M-card, in my case at least based upon viewing the interview of which we speak.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> That's splitting some pretty fine hairs, if you ask me.


Absolutely. However, I think some of the claims about what promises were made are splitting some pretty fine hairs as well. I think you hit on the main point when you said that the statements that folks are hinging their claims on were "forward looking" statements. Therefore, they should never have been taken as promises.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

ah30k said:


> I don't recall too many people claiming that they were promised M-Mode support.


You don't think the fact that the back of the Series 3 says you can use a single M Card causes some confusion on the already confusing cable card installations?

Or the fact that the available documentation talked about M Card support?

It's not a 'promise' it's something in black and white that still doesn't work a year and a half later...


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> According to statements made by TiVo, this is much more problematical than expected. I have the distinct impression it's the card reader hardware itself which is faulty, and even if their OEM provider agrees to swap out the modules for little or no cash - which is unlikely - TiVo is still looking at a large amount of money to implement a retrofit program.


TiVo people have said on this board that it is possible, but isn't a high priority right now from a software development standpoint.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> You don't think the fact that the back of the Series 3 says you can use a single M Card causes some confusion on the already confusing cable card installations?


What is your manufacture date out of curiosity?

Mine (w/o the M card writing is 17-Sep-06).


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## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

Adam1115 said:


> You don't think the fact that the back of the Series 3 says you can use a single M Card causes some confusion on the already confusing cable card installations?
> 
> Or the fact that the available documentation talked about M Card support?
> 
> It's not a 'promise' it's something in black and white that still doesn't work a year and a half later...


First off I've never seen the back of the S3 but I'll take your word on that.

I do remember that at one time TiVo did say that one M card would work on the S3 so your correct about that. However just as fast as possible they let us know that was not the case.

As far as "confusing installers" all you're suppose to do is hand them the installation sheet and tell them to follow the directions. No where on the installation sheet does it mention the M card.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ldudek said:


> First off I've never seen the back of the S3 but I'll take your word on that.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6171538#post6171538


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## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> Well, it does work with a single card, or even with no cards, it just doesn't have the full functionality most of us expected with an M-card, in my case at least based upon viewing the interview of which we speak.


Oh my God have we gotten to splitting hairs on this? Does everything you say have to be spelled out directly so there is no misunderstanding?

Yes, it will work with one card with digital cable but not the way it is suppose to. And "most of us" knew a long long time ago that the single M card would not work.

This is ridiculous I'm not participating on this thread any further. I truly have never seen so many nit picking group of people in my life.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Oh my, I could point you to at least one other forum far more nit-picky than this one! :rotfl:


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bicker said:


> Absolutely. However, I think some of the claims about what promises were made are splitting some pretty fine hairs as well. I think you hit on the main point when you said that the statements that folks are hinging their claims on were "forward looking" statements. Therefore, they should never have been taken as promises.


That's right. If it's not in a legally binding contract or enacted as a matter of law, then any promised features are nothing but vapor until they are sitting on a shelf awaiting shipping, or a server awaiting download. That's not to say we shouldn't express our desires to obtain said vaporware, but they are really under no specific obligation to provide it. Ethically, they should make every reasonable effort to try, of course, but if something turns out to be uneconomical or technically impractical to deliver, then they simply made a mistake, and we have to accept it, or else seek other means of gratification.

For me, the features of the TiVo make the $6 a month extra cost (for two extra CableCards) to be within my ability to tolerate. It does grind my 'nads a bit that I'm having to pay $15 a month for CableCards when it's technically possible to reduce that number.

Actually, I think the CATV companies should charge less for S-Cards than M-cards, but I doubt we would have much luck convincing them of that.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ldudek said:


> Oh my God have we gotten to splitting hairs on this? Does everything you say have to be spelled out directly so there is no misunderstanding?


For me? No. For others? I've been in the technology business for a long time, and I can tell you through long experience that if one does not state explicitly and exactly the situation, then certain individuals will make the most amazing assumptions concerning what was said. Of course sometime they are just trolls who will seize on any mis-step as a point of contention, but many are just perfectly innocent individuals whose interpretation of the text goes askew, in part perhaps because of ambiguity of the statement.



ldudek said:


> This is ridiculous I'm not participating on this thread any further.


You are free to make that choice. You are also free and welcome to reconsider at some point.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

greg_burns said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6171538#post6171538


Neither of my S3 TiVos have that logo on them. One was purchased in September 2006, very shortly after the S3 was introduced. The other was purchased in January 2007.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> Neither of my S3 TiVos have that logo on them. One was purchased in September 2006, very shortly after the S3 was introduced. The other was purchased in January 2007.


Printed on the back by the TSN is the manufacture date.

Edit: oh, you said Jan 20*07*, probably doesn't matter then. Wonder when they made the change?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

greg_burns said:


> Printed on the back by the TSN is the manufacture date.
> 
> Edit: oh, you said Jan 20*07*, probably doesn't matter then.


I said Sept of 06, for the one in the livingroom. Obviously it was manufactured before I bought it. It's extremely difficult and painful for me to get behind the Mitsubishi TV in the livingroom, but nonetheless, I did it twice, once to look at the panel, and other to try to see the manufacture date. I can't get to it.



greg_burns said:


> Wonder when they made the change?


Obviously very early in the production run, since my first one was purchased only a few weeks after the unit was introduced. That, unless they have changed it since January 2007.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> Obviously very early in the production run, since my first one was purchased only a few weeks after the unit was introduced. That, unless they have changed it since January 2007.


I only asked because I thought you said Jan. 08. Which would have been very strange since Adam1115 *does* have the writing.

It is not obvious at all to me when they added it. Sometime since your Jan 07 unit's manufacture date but before Adam1115's.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

greg_burns said:


> What is your manufacture date out of curiosity?
> 
> Mine (w/o the M card writing is 17-Sep-06).


I don't know. Mine was purchased 11/06. I don't think the manufacture date matters. It's just a sticker 'overlay' that was apparently re-done.



ldudek said:


> First off I've never seen the back of the S3 but I'll take your word on that.


Don't take my word for it, look at the pictures in THIS THREAD.



ldudek said:


> I do remember that at one time TiVo did say that one M card would work on the S3 so your correct about that. However just as fast as possible they let us know that was not the case.


'At one time'? Have you read this thread? 

A week ago TiVoPony in this very thread said it is not a hardware problem, that it is softwaree

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6147744&highlight=m-card#post6147744



TiVoPony said:


> Likewise, features such as QAM remapping and M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers, both are in fact very small numbers of subscribers. That doesn't mean that they automatically get set aside, or that TiVo is ignoring or doesn't care about those customers. But it is a consideration when trading off those features against others (M-Card for S3 is technically possible, but also technically very complex. We've learned that there is a lot of risk inherent in that development).





ldudek said:


> As far as "confusing installers" all you're suppose to do is hand them the installation sheet and tell them to follow the directions. No where on the installation sheet does it mention the M card.


Uhm. Exactly. The cable guy shows up with an M Card. Average Joe consumer doesn't know what an M-Card is. The back of the TiVo says to insert a single M-Card in slot one.

It doesn't work. Cable guy blames the TiVo and leaves.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Where do the "reinterpretations" of the specific meaning of this come from?


Thank you to those of you who have clearly demonstrated you are reinterpreting what Pony said while simultaneously denying any reinterpretation and frankly not having a clue what Pony said or what all this is about in the first place.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

ah30k said:


> Here is a CES 2006 video interview with Pony who said "One Multi-Stream Card or Two Single-Stream cards" within the first couple of minutes of the video.


The link worked fine for me. I watched the whole thing (about 5 minutes).

There is *no doubt at all* that Pony says (in his words) 2 S-cards or 1 M-card. He actually says it twice, a few minutes apart. First time is close to the beginning, second time a minute or two later.

The attempt at revisionist history from the FanBoys p****s me off. Nobody should question that it was TiVo's clear intent to support a single M-card.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> The link worked fine for me. I watched the whole thing (about 5 minutes).
> 
> There is *no doubt at all* that Pony says (in his words) 2 S-cards or 1 M-card. He actually says it twice, a few minutes apart. First time is close to the beginning, second time a minute or two later.
> 
> The attempt at revisionist history from the FanBoys p****s me off. Nobody should question that it was TiVo's clear intent to support a single M-card.


I can't speak for the others, but it's OBVIOUS that it was their intent - they wouldn't have put the label on there otherwise. However, intent is not the same as promise. I have never heard them promise that M-Card would be enabled for multi-stream use.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

MickeS said:


> However, intent is not the same as promise. I have never heard them promise that M-Card would be enabled for multi-stream use.


And even if they did promise, what difference does it make? Millions of people promise to stay together till death do them part and then half of them divorce. Why do you hold TiVo to such a high standard? It wouldn't be the first time they didn't deliver on a promise nor it would be the last. At the time "intent" or "promise" by Pony happened TiVo honestly believed that S3 will be a big hit. It was a flop, so now it does not pay to spend good money after bad because even if every single owner of S3 dumps TiVo - the loss to TiVo will be smaller than money they have to spend to enable M-card support. Simple math.
And now do the reality check. How many people will dump $800 hardware with lifetime or 3 year contract even if they pissed that M-card doesn't work? How many will dump discounted $400 hardware even if contract expired? I bet not even a 100. On other hand TiVo really needs to concentrate on USB dongle because if SDV is widespread the number of people dumping TiVo can do some major damage to the bottom line.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I don't think what you've said there can be over-stated. Folks here know I'm not one to second-guess good people doing a good job, but if TiVo isn't doing everything it possibly can to address SDV, then they're aiming for trouble, and if that takes resources away from practically anything else, it would be utterly justified.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

samo said:


> And even if they did promise, what difference does it make? Millions of people promise to stay together till death do them part and then half of them divorce. Why do you hold TiVo to such a high standard? It wouldn't be the first time they didn't deliver on a promise nor it would be the last.


Yea, you're right. We should never expect products to perform as advertised.

How *dare* us.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

This thread is funny. 

I can't tell you how many times marketing has promised a future feature while engineering curses at them because it's unproven. Then, when engineering tries to implement it, they run into trouble as expected. Then marketing tries to gracefully remove the foot from its mouth. Where I work, I'm working on such a project right now.

I also can't tell you how many times software has been modified way more than it should (i.e. extra months of work added) to circumvent a hardware problem. Nothing TivoPony said stated which kind of problem it was. But if the HD fully supports M-card, and the S3 is based off a similar platform, the code should be pretty much done. Reading in between the lines, which can get you into trouble but I've gotten good at it, indicates that an unexpected problem (most likely in hardware) has cropped up and a complicated workaround is needed. It happens all the time, in fact, I'm working on such a project right now. In fact, the same one I mentioned above. What a coincidence. 

M-cards are backward compatible, so users in areas where only M-card are available don't have doorstops. They just pay a little more each month. 

Finally, they have much bigger things to fix (just look at all the sticky threads in the S3 forum). I think this "fully-supprt M-card" feature got bumped way down on the list. And TivoPony has said as much.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> Yea, you're right. We should never expect products to perform as advertised.
> 
> How *dare* us.


You must have been the only person to see the ad stating that M-card functionality was currently available and not in progress like the rest of us saw.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

samo said:


> And even if they did promise, what difference does it make? Millions of people promise to stay together till death do them part and then half of them divorce. Why do you hold TiVo to such a high standard? It wouldn't be the first time they didn't deliver on a promise nor it would be the last. At the time "intent" or "promise" by Pony happened TiVo honestly believed that S3 will be a big hit. It was a flop, so now it does not pay to spend good money after bad because even if every single owner of S3 dumps TiVo - the loss to TiVo will be smaller than money they have to spend to enable M-card support. Simple math.
> And now do the reality check. How many people will dump $800 hardware with lifetime or 3 year contract even if they pissed that M-card doesn't work? How many will dump discounted $400 hardware even if contract expired? I bet not even a 100. On other hand TiVo really needs to concentrate on USB dongle because if SDV is widespread the number of people dumping TiVo can do some major damage to the bottom line.


No way, Dude.

TiVo hasn´t sold nearly enough TiVo HDs to make it worthwhile to bother with the SDV thingy. TiVo should just move on to the two way TiVo. After all, the THDs were cheap and folks can just buy a new box without losing much of their ínvestment, and TiVo is so great and we all should be so thankful for TiVo´s very existence that they should be happy to switch boxes.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> You must have been the only person to see the ad stating that M-card functionality was currently available and not in progress like the rest of us saw.


No, I'm pretty sure there were a couple of dozen people in the room with me at CES when TiVo reps said it would support M-Cards. (Before they reprinted the back sticker...)

Engadget heard it too...

http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/tivo-announces-series-3-hd-tivo-due-this-year/



> The device supports dual CableCARDs, of the 2.0 or 1.0 a variety, so either way you can get dual signals, with one 2.0 card or two 1.0 cards.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> And even if they did promise, what difference does it make? Millions of people promise to stay together till death do them part and then half of them divorce. Why do you hold TiVo to such a high standard? It wouldn't be the first time they didn't deliver on a promise nor it would be the last. At the time "intent" or "promise" by Pony happened TiVo honestly believed that S3 will be a big hit. It was a flop, so now it does not pay to spend good money after bad because even if every single owner of S3 dumps TiVo - the loss to TiVo will be smaller than money they have to spend to enable M-card support. Simple math..


I agree in principle with what you say Samo
But the dollars to fix being too high themselves may or may not be the case. TiVoPony never said that the resource cost was too high nor did he state it was purely a financial decision.
He clearly indicated that the identified fix was risky from a technical standpoint. I read that as "we may well introduce bugs that impacts all S3 using any cable card and make a small (user-base wise) problem far bigger.

And yes - a flawlessly working M-card is meaningless if 20 of the channels can not be seen or recorded. SDV is way up on the priority list for a very good reason. QAM mapping is way down on the list for a very good reason. Making digital OTA converters work with an S2 is in the middle of the list for a very good reason.

Unless you can give TiVo a very good *reason* to move things around on the priority list then the list will stay like it is despite all the exhortations of customers from any source. And the resources are assigned to the list from the top down until the resources are all assigned and then it stops. Some more of that simple math


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> No, I'm pretty sure there were a couple of dozen people in the room with me at CES when TiVo reps said it would support M-Cards. (Before they reprinted the back sticker...)
> 
> Engadget heard it too...
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/tivo-announces-series-3-hd-tivo-due-this-year/


Slow down, I'm having trouble keeping up with the goalposts that you keep moving.

You said "advertised" Tivo never advertised that the M-card feature was working. Certainly they said that they were working on it and anticipated it, but that's a completely different story. Anyone that thought that future M-card functionality was a 100% complete certainty was mistaken - such a thing was never stated by Tivo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cmon guys,
TiVo inc. clearly intended for M-cards to work in the S3 as one card doing multiple byte streams.

TiVo inc. has finally clearly stated that it is having great difficulty making that work so do not hold your breath for it any longer.

anyone with an S3 using cable cards is clearly impacted by this turn of events. 

can those three things just be stipulated instead of downward argument over exactly how much TiVo promised and when.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

No Zeo. This thread was never about facts. Stipulation is irrelevant. If we're going to stipulate, let's start by stipulating that consumers often hold unreasonable expectations.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> But if the HD fully supports M-card, and the S3 is based off a similar platform, the code should be pretty much done. Reading in between the lines, which can get you into trouble but I've gotten good at it, indicates that an unexpected problem (most likely in hardware) has cropped up and a complicated workaround is needed.


The Series 3 and the TiVoHD are NOT based on similar platforms.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

MickeS said:


> The Series 3 and the TiVoHD are NOT based on similar platforms.


Errr. what? The TiVo HD _*IS*_ a series 3...


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> Errr. what? The TiVo HD _*IS*_ a series 3...


Nah, the THD is a _Series 3 Platform_ TiVo, which *of course *has nothing to do with whether the THD is based on a similar platform as the Series3.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> Errr. what? The TiVo HD _*IS*_ a series 3...


Maybe on the label, the guts are completely different.

Edit: Kind of life a Humax DVD unit and a 540 and a Dual Tuner are all Series 2.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

The Series 3 and TiVo are rather different, at the chip level, but as a whole, they do practically the same thing the same way.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

GoHokies! said:


> Maybe on the label, the guts are completely different.
> 
> Edit: Kind of life a Humax DVD unit and a 540 and a Dual Tuner are all Series 2.


Tivo has been using Broadcom MIPS processors, right? Tivo has used those since the second spin of S2, according to Megazone.

You'd think the code would be mostly portable since all these processors are in the same family. Maybe some lower-level drivers need to be tweaked. They have not be rewriting all new code from scratch for each new Tivo type since second rev. of S2. The guts are not completely different.

Having said that, the interface chip to the CableCard slots (the one everyone seems to be interested in) could be different. Does anyone know what's in the S3 and HD? A difference here would not change much code (it's just interface code in the Broadcom MIPS) unless the S3's CableCard interface chip wasn't working properly. Which means it's most likely a hardware problem, and they have to implement an unexpected huge software workaround for a minor feature as I posted previously. This caused Tivo to backtrack and start gently lowering expectations.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> Maybe on the label, the guts are completely different.
> 
> Edit: Kind of life a Humax DVD unit and a 540 and a Dual Tuner are all Series 2.


The guts may be different but that doesn't mean the software is that different.

The software is very likely the same in the two units. The M-Card code however won't do anything on a S3 because it doesn't detect the HD version of the cablecard reader.

TiVo's 4.01b software was compatible with both standalone series2's AND directivo's, even though the hardware was very different.

The latest HR10-250 software will run on a non-HD version even though there are a lot of differences in the hardware.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> This thread is funny.
> 
> ... But if the HD fully supports M-card, and the S3 is based off a similar platform, the code should be pretty much done. Reading in between the lines, which can get you into trouble but I've gotten good at it, indicates that an unexpected problem (most likely in hardware) has cropped up and a complicated workaround is needed. ....


someplace esle around here theres' a thread that says the cablecard hardware in the S3 and THD are different. I'm guessing that's the rub. The hardware in the S3 was made before Mcard's were primetime and so it must have some issues- or more complexity compared the THD- or whatever folks want to call it.

I think it's even possible it has worked in a lab someplace- if you look at the cablecard device list from cablelabs the S3 is listed TWICE- the speculation was the second time is for getting M-card approval. But I guess it has or had issues....

I have 2 S3's/ I was pay extra for the 2 extra s-cards and also get stuck with 2 more addtional outlet fees. It's irked me from day one. (got he first S3 the first week they were out) I've been waiting for single m-card support since like day 1. But now that Pony's explained it I'm actually much less annoyed then I was. I wish he would have said something months ago.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> ..
> 
> Having said that, the interface chip to the CableCard slots (the one everyone seems to be interested in) could be different. Does anyone know what's in the S3 and HD? A difference here would not change much code (it's just interface code in the Broadcom MIPS) unless the S3's CableCard interface chip wasn't working properly. Which means it's most likely a hardware problem, and they have to implement an unexpected huge software workaround for a minor feature as I posted previously. This caused Tivo to backtrack and start gently lowering expectations.


i believe that's the case.


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## h00ligan (Nov 29, 2007)

iirc i don't think it's just a cox az problem.. and yes, it's 'SA' too, that siad, if there's a limited marketplace in which this is an issue with one company and one piece of technology.. i get that it's a difficult situation - but it has been 6 months +


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> The guts may be different but that doesn't mean the software is that different.
> 
> The software is very likely the same in the two units. The M-Card code however won't do anything on a S3 because it doesn't detect the HD version of the cablecard reader.
> 
> ...


The software release may be the same version number for any two particular models at any given time, but the software can take wildly diverging paths of execution for each model of hardware. The forum contains many many examples of users of a particular model experiencing an issue while users with other models with the same software fail to experience it. Also, TiVo often denotes released software specifically for a particular model, including the model number in the software version string, e.g. 9.2.J1-01-2-652, 8.0.1-01-2-648, and so on.


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## cia_viewer (Mar 11, 2008)

I am copying programs from one TiVo DVR to another TiVo DVR. I am connecting the two DVRs with a 'crossover' cable I made years ago. I have successfully copied a half dozen programs.
My 'crossover' cable is made with 2 RJ45 connectors and 4 conductor telephone cable:

OW=BW
O=B
BW=OW
=
=
B=O
=
=

Would it make any difference if it were made with 8 conductor CAT5e cable instead?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

The DT-TiVos and the USB ethernet adapters that others support, use normal 10/100 adapters, which only use the two pair. 
Cat5 will probably help though, compared to telephone wire.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

gonzotek said:


> The software release may be the same version number for any two particular models at any given time, but the software can take wildly diverging paths of execution for each model of hardware. The forum contains many many examples of users of a particular model experiencing an issue while users with other models with the same software fail to experience it. Also, TiVo often denotes released software specifically for a particular model, including the model number in the software version string, e.g. 9.2.J1-01-2-652, 8.0.1-01-2-648, and so on.


Rule of thumb:
a.bb-cc-d-eee

a main verson.
b sub version. Letters and extra digits indicate minor revision. The J1 shown above indicates a test release.

I have no idea what c or d is.

is the hardware platform

With that said, I think that the software proper for some systems is essentially the same build, the machine itself figuring what modules to load, and options to include when running the tivoapp. The startup scripts seem to indicate that.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

classicsat said:


> The DT-TiVos and the USB ethernet adapters that others support, use normal 10/100 adapters, which only use the two pair.
> Cat5 will probably help though, compared to telephone wire.


yes, to elaborate some
the way the 4 pair are wrapped around each other makes a big difference in the efficiency of the signal as it keeps the two active pair from interfering with each others frequency.

Plain old phone wire is not made to the same specifications.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

The following has been coming to mind the past couple of days, and it occurs to me why: 

The Hoober Bloob Highway is a downward spiral. TiVo really should watch the Hoober Bloob Highway.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

classicsat said:


> Rule of thumb:
> a.bb-cc-d-eee
> 
> a main verson.
> ...


one of the digits I believe indicates which partition it's on- for people that dont know there are 2 partitions for the tivo code- it comes written on 1 then the first upgrade fgoes to partition 2 then the next one to partition 1 and so forth. So ever other release on the same box would flip the digit between 1 and 2


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