# Lost 2/23/10 "Lighthouse"



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I hate to be rash and judgmental, but I'm starting to suspect that Claire might have issues...

I'd say the theory that she is the new Rousseau has become pretty much indisputable!


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I hate to be rash and judgmental, but I'm starting to suspect that Claire might have issues...


haha, what gave it away 

now the numbers meaning is showing up everywhere.. next week it will be part of a spice rack: 23-shephard-dillweed


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I love how just when they find something that may help them figure things out....Jack smashes it up!! This is a repetitive theme with the show. Smash, destroy, kill all that may help you find out what it going on.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I wonder who number 108 was.


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## fliptheflop (Sep 20, 2005)

betts4 said:


> I wonder who number 108 was.


Looks to me like it says Wallace


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Think the tic-tac-toe game was an homage to War Games?


My wife had an idea...what if it was Rousseau who was infected (not her team)? 

Can Smokey appear differently to different people at the same time? Or is Claire just crazy? Would Jack see Locke as his dad?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I wonder who David's mother is going to be.

I have suspicions.


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

looks like they also showed kate as being number 51 in this one


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Well this establishes that the plane landed the same date as before, Sept 22nd, because the message said David's audition was Friday the 24th. (I confirmed with a 2004 calendar )
So i'll stop talking about claire's sonogram now.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mmilton80 said:


> My wife had an idea...what if it was Rousseau who was infected (not her team)?


We saw that her team was infected.

And while Rousseau had a certain...intensity, I'd say she was as sane as could be expected under the circumstances. Claire has certainly gone a lot further down the crazy trail in three years than Rousseau did in sixteen.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

This was the 108th episode!


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## kdelande (Dec 17, 2001)

Cindy1230 said:


> Well this establishes that the plane landed the same date as before, Sept 22nd, because the message said David's audition was Friday the 24th. (I confirmed with a 2004 calendar )
> So i'll stop talking about claire's sonogram now.


Also, Damon and Carlton (showrunners) confirmed in the last podcast that the sonogram was a prop error and yes, the plane did land on the same date.

KD


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I guess Adam & Eve aren't them?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> I guess Adam & Eve aren't them?


Couldn't be Hugo, because even if they died back in dinosaur times there'd probably still be some meat on those bones...


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> We saw that her team was infected.
> 
> And while Rousseau had a certain...intensity, I'd say she was as sane as could be expected under the circumstances. Claire has certainly gone a lot further down the crazy trail in three years than Rousseau did in sixteen.


yeah I'd say Rousseau was pure normal and Claire is pure crazy/infected/smoky


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

But both Claire and Rousseau believed the Others to have taken their baby (Rousseau correctly.) And how come Smokey would kill Kate if she had Aaron?


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Philosofy said:


> But both Claire and Rousseau believed the Others to have taken their baby (Rousseau correctly.) And how come Smokey would kill Kate if she had Aaron?


But Rousseau acted sanely, almost.

Claire is bat crazy

Rousseau was just hell bent on getting her kid back, 17 years alone in the jungle in her conditions would do that!


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

How is Claire bat crazy? She killed a guy that she KNEW would have killed her. 
She seemed fairly sane to me.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NatasNJ said:


> She seemed fairly sane to me.


[backs slowly away from the crazy New Jersey guy]


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

I love how Hurley acts as a Greek chorus for the rest of us. So, now THE question is rapidly becoming "Who do we believe - Jacob or UnLocke?"


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## eMarkM (Apr 28, 2003)

betts4 said:


> I wonder who number 108 was.


Remember, 4 + 8 + 15 + 16 + 23 + 42 = 108


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> [backs slowly away from the crazy New Jersey guy]


I'm kinda with crazy NJ guy.

Yes, she was a bit whacko, but I would too after 3 years alone and being chased and hunted and under the suspicion that my baby was kidnapped.

Given all that, she seemed alright. 

She shot at the guy earlier to kill him. No way she was going to let him go. He had to die. Perhaps she could have handled it differently.

I'm a little bothered by Jack smashing stuff. He saw the other names -- perhaps they had things to see in the mirror. But no, Jack's a selfish little "broken" man who gets angry and busts stuff up. :down:


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, I just want to say for the record, I'm not crazy.

ALL OF YOU ARE!!!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Yeah, Claire was clearly crazy. I don't think they could have telegraphed it any better. Whether it's from the infection or loneliness and desperately seeking Aaron, who knows.

I HATED that Jack smashed that mirror setup. I've always cut that character some slack, but now it's like they're really going out of their way to show him as a complete jerk... argh...


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I don't think who number 108 is is important. Jacob knew by having Hugo turn the mirrors that Jack would see what he needed to see. Jack now understands that him crash landing on that island was no twist of fate, but part of some greater plan. What he does with this information is what Jacob is after.


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

Claire had also been tortured and branded. I would go after any one connected with it also.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I love that it all started on Sept 22nd. That is my birthday.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

What was the bit about Jack's appendix?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

betts4 said:


> What was the bit about Jack's appendix?


Jack had appendicitis on the island (IIRC Juliet did surgery on him). I wonder what it meant that in the flash sideways he didn't remember the surgery as a kid that he supposedly had...


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

MickeS said:


> Jack had appendicitis on the island (IIRC Juliet did surgery on him). I wonder what it meant that in the flash sideways he didn't remember the surgery as a kid that he supposedly had...


That's what I was wondering. I remembered the Island incident, but they are telling us it happened when he was 7 and that his dad wanted to do the surgery. I wonder if he was supposed to 'not quite' remember it right because it really happened on the island.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> But both Claire and Rousseau believed the Others to have taken their baby (Rousseau correctly.) *And how come Smokey would kill Kate if she had Aaron?*


Wait, so you're saying that Claire is Smokey? Where did you get that? Just because she said UnLocke was her friend?


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

Is Jack's ex-wife in the alternate timeline...

Sarah?
Gabriela?
or *Juliet?*


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

betts4 said:


> That's what I was wondering. I remembered the Island incident, but they are telling us it happened when he was 7 and that his dad wanted to do the surgery. I wonder if he was supposed to 'not quite' remember it right because it really happened on the island.


No it didn't. These guys never landed on the island. They went from Sidney to LA non-stop.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Philly Bill said:


> No it didn't. These guys never landed on the island. They went from Sidney to LA non-stop.


Or did they?

Is the alternate timeline some kind of elaborate psychodrama?

Why did Samurai leader appear at David's recital?


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## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

I think there's additional significance to the 108 degrees. Remember when the helicopter was flying back and forth from the boat to the island? There was a specific heading they had to stay on or everything went wonky. Wasn't that heading 108 degrees? Of course, moving the island would probably change the required heading.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

screencaps for the Lighthouse show 108 is a crossed out name; "Wallace", and that Austen is number 51 (click the pics for a better look).

 
Hmm...


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

lpamelaa said:


> Remember when the helicopter was flying back and forth from the boat to the island? There was a specific heading they had to stay on or everything went wonky. Wasn't that heading 108 degrees?


It was 305 degrees... and when Ben gave Michael and Walt a boat at the end of season two he told them to follow a heading of 325 degrees to find rescue. link


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## jerrad707 (Dec 27, 2004)

JYoung said:


> Why did Samurai leader appear at David's recital?


This, and what's with the kid? Jack's "son."

Also, did anyone else notice the poster in the Williams Conservatory (from the audition hall) that read "Welcome All Candidates!":up: Maybe David is _Shepard #23_, ya prolly not.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Didn't Claire give Aaron to Kate to take care of? I can't quite remember the exact circumstances surrounding that.


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## Crobinzine (Dec 29, 2005)

Peter000 said:


> Didn't Claire give Aaron to Kate to take care of? I can't quite remember the exact circumstances surrounding that.


I thought she left him in a tree stump?


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> I'm a little bothered by Jack smashing stuff. He saw the other names -- perhaps they had things to see in the mirror. But no, Jack's a selfish little "broken" man who gets angry and busts stuff up. :down:


Jack smash.

I wonder if Wallace (number 108) is looking for his soul.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Crobinzine said:


> I thought she left him in a tree stump?


Yes. Claire left Aaron in the woods one night and followed Christian into the woods. Miles saw it happen.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

It's frustrating for us but I don't think Jack smashing the lighthouse mirror ultimately means anything. Jacob could have avoided this by giving Hurley more information, but noooooooooooo. I know this show's lack of answers has made me want to smash stuff.

Claire may be nuts but she had to kill that guy. Now, if I were Jin, I'd hit her in the head and limp away as fast as possible.

Why did Hurley's "I'm a candidate" line work on Samurai guy? I expected him to say "So what? Get your butt back to the temple."


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> I'm a little bothered by Jack smashing stuff. He saw the other names -- perhaps they had things to see in the mirror. But no, Jack's a selfish little "broken" man who gets angry and busts stuff up. :down:


I loved that part. We think we know that Jacob is the good guy and he's trying to help our castaways, and we have a lot more information than Jack to suggest that, but from Jack's perspective all these powerful groups and individuals that inhabit the Island have been using him and his friends for their own strange and secret purposes, and now he sees through the mirror that they've been meddling in their lives for years before they even got to the island. Now Hurley has been given instructions and they are both expected to follow them blindly, without being told the consequences. Jack's not in the mood to be anyone's *****. If this invisible guy Jacob wants something from Jack, he's going to have to show him the respect of meeting Jack face to face. I'm loving Jack right now.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

When Hurley was talking about walking through the jungle on some mission they didn't quite understand being just like old times I had to smile, and when Jack said "We're at the caves" it gave me a jolt of happy season one nostalgia.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Remember you can check out the updated list of candidates here.
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Candidates


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Alternate world Jack and Kate both had moments of recognition (no, not recognition, what word am I looking for?) while looking in mirrors. Jack has had two actually, one on the plane and one tonight. Kate had hers in the garage bathroom. Now we see mirrors that reflect distant places. A connection there? I sure don't know. 

I'm wondering if the alternate timelines are merging or is it that information is being passed between them. If they are merging have they always been separate and the bomb created a pathway between them? (That would suggest other timelines as well, maybe an infinite number, which we haven't seen evidence of.) Or did a split occur at the bomb point in 1977. Someone elsewhere said they did the math and alt Jack's appendix surgery would have been in 1977, which is vaguely suggestive if not helpful.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Wait, so you're saying that Claire is Smokey? Where did you get that? Just because she said UnLocke was her friend?


I gathered that both sides are now actively recruiting, and Claire is one of Smokey's recruits.


Spoiler



The enhanced broadcast for The Substitute refers to Sawyer as a recruit


My take? both sides are recruiting to keep them from the other.

Diane


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Another undeveloped thought: In the book Slaughterhouse Five, which has been referenced more than once on the show, the main character becomes "unstuck in time" (like Desmond) and learns to travel back and forth to periods in his own life. What if the bomb opened a pathway to an alternate universe (or many?) that our characters can learn to travel on? Maybe even back and forth in time as well?


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## caslu (Jun 24, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I loved that part. We think we know that Jacob is the good guy and he's trying to help our castaways, and we have a lot more information than Jack to suggest that, but from Jack's perspective all these powerful groups and individuals that inhabit the Island have been using him and his friends for their own strange and secret purposes, and now he sees through the mirror that they've been meddling in their lives for years before they even got to the island. Now Hurley has been given instructions and they are both expected to follow them blindly, without being told the consequences. Jack's not in the mood to be anyone's *****. If this invisible guy Jacob wants something from Jack, he's going to have to show him the respect of meeting Jack face to face. I'm loving Jack right now.


I'm wondering if Jack smashing the mirrors wasn't exactly what Jacob wanted to happen. He knows Jack's personality and temperament, and he certainly didn't seem the least bit upset that Jack destroyed the mirrors. So, basically I think Jack is still being Jacob's *****... he just doesn't realize it yet.


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Couldn't be Hugo, because even if they died back in dinosaur times there'd probably still be some meat on those bones...


Thanks for my first laugh of the day.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

caslu said:


> I'm wondering if Jack smashing the mirrors wasn't exactly what Jacob wanted to happen. He knows Jack's personality and temperament, and he certainly didn't seem the least bit upset that Jack destroyed the mirrors. So, basically I think Jack is still being Jacob's *****... he just doesn't realize it yet.


Very nice! I can see this. I am of the group that Jacob is not a 'good guy' and things are not what they seem.

Also, interesting that Claire is Jack's half sister and she is on the other team gathering their team.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

What was the book that Jack said he used to read to David something about looking for Alice or something?

significance?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

caslu said:


> I'm wondering if Jack smashing the mirrors wasn't exactly what Jacob wanted to happen. He knows Jack's personality and temperament, and he certainly didn't seem the least bit upset that Jack destroyed the mirrors. So, basically I think Jack is still being Jacob's *****... he just doesn't realize it yet.


Jacob is a man of infinite patience, as we have seen. He did want Jack to turn the mirror to 108, but as he more or less said, Jack isn't as amenable to suggestion as Hurley is and is likely to fight back if pushed too hard, but just getting him to the lighthouse was progress. So, yeah, Jack isn't going to win in a fight with Jacob who is patient and cunning, but he is going to fight!


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

MikeMar said:


> What was the book that Jack said he used to read to David something about looking for Alice or something?
> 
> significance?


The Annotated Alice. Alice and Wonderland and sequels with commentary. Books that have been often referenced in the show. One connection is obviously the "Looking Glass" magic mirror in the books, as mentioned above the characters seem to have magic mirror revelations. (And as mentioned elsewhere, the "Looking Glass" station was programmed by a musician who we don't know yet, though we met yet another musician this week, David)


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Anyone else expect David to reply to Jack when asked what he was listening to and say "drive shaft" ??


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Fool Me Twice said:


> We think we know that Jacob is the good guy...


Yeah, and I think that regardless of whether Jacob is the/a good guy, this episode pretty much laid to rest any doubt that not-Locke is the/a bad guy. Because the way he's playing crazy Claire (and yes, Claire is crazy; the only way they could have indicated it more strongly is by having a big flashing subtitle reading "crazy" every time she appeared on the screen) is not just bad, it's pure evil.


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## tgrim1 (Sep 11, 2006)

MikeMar said:


> Anyone else expect David to reply to Jack when asked what he was listening to and say "drive shaft" ??


I was totally waiting for that. But then seeing how it played out with the audition it was probably classical.


Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, and I think that regardless of whether Jacob is the/a good guy, this episode pretty much laid to rest any doubt that not-Locke is the/a bad guy. Because the way he's playing crazy Claire (and yes, Claire is crazy; the only way they could have indicated it more strongly is by having a big flashing subtitle reading "crazy" every time she appeared on the screen) is not just bad, it's pure evil.


They will probably use that (crazy Claire) in the subtitles in next week's enhanced episode. It seems they have to beat us over the head with the obvious stuff.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The easiest way to tell Claire is crazy is by the wild bird's nest hairdo she's sporting. Kate seems to go to the hair dresser every week.

Why did David have a girl's bike?


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> The Annotated Alice. Alice and Wonderland and sequels with commentary. Books that have been often referenced in the show. One connection is obviously the "Looking Glass" magic mirror in the books, as mentioned above the characters seem to have magic mirror revelations. (And as mentioned elsewhere, the "Looking Glass" station was programmed by a musician who we don't know yet, though we met yet another musician this week, David)


Great thought re: David being the musician that programmed the Looking Glass. I like it. I also agree with the "mirror revelations/looking glass" line of thinking. Did you notice that the key to get into his ex-wife's home was hidden under a rabbit figurine?

A couple of thoughts and questions. They weren't smeeks at the time I started typing...

1. When Jack's mom poured a drink from Christian's bar, there was a bottle of MacCutcheon 60 amongst the bottles.

2. I'm still holding on to the thought that the names of the candidates are bit ambiguous. "Shepard" could easily be Christian, not Jack, for example.

3. Jack's destruction of the lighthouse mirrors, while done in anger, was done in calculated anger I think. Jack was not just getting all HULK SMASH! -- he was trying to provoke Jacob into appearing.

4. I was disappointed that Hurley put forward an "are Adam and Eve us from dinosaur times?" theory. Since he laid it out as a theory, it seems like that was the writers' way of dismissing it as a valid one. Still, Adam and Eve are significant and the fact that we were just reminded of their existence mean they will be coming back into play in some way.

5. What was the thing in Aaron's crib at Claire's camp? Some sort of animal corpse? I couldn't really make it out.

6. Back when LOST first premiered, right after the pilot episode, I posted a theory on a message board that no longer exists. I wish it did, and that I could find my post, because the more I watch the show the more I suspect I might have been onto something. My comment involved a comparison of LOST and the Stanislaw Lem novel (and movie) "Solaris." Solaris explored the physical manifestations of the thoughts of its characters. Characters would essentially think things into being - it had to do with the weird properties of the planet they were near. Or something like that - it's been about 15 years since I read the book and I didn't see the George Clooney movie remake. But I recall being reminded of the story when watching the pilot episode, and wondering if something similar was happening on LOST. Characters would think something, WANT something, and it would happen. We saw that in the pilot with Michael and Walt. Walt wanted Michael to look for Vincent, but it was raining. Michael said he would look when the rain stopped, and the rain stopped. In later episodes, we learned of other instances where Walt's desires seemingly influenced reality, because he was "special." I think that the reason Walt was considered "special" is not because he could influence reality, but rather because he could do so even while off-island. On-island, I think it's the norm. Believe something bad enough and you can will it into being. That's the "magic box" that brought Locke's father to the island. That's why the answer to "why did we never notice the lighthouse?" is, as Hurley suggested in this episode, "because we never looked for it before." That's why characters can heal easily - because they want to be healed -- for Rose, the power of positive thinking essentially cures her of her cancer. But all of this thinking has to be done voluntarily - that's where free will/fate comes into play. Jacob and MIB are trying to control some sort of game, but they have to manipulate their pieces into moving of their own volition otherwise the move is not a valid one. Or something like that.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, and I think that regardless of whether Jacob is the/a good guy, this episode pretty much laid to rest any doubt that not-Locke is the/a bad guy. Because the way he's playing crazy Claire (and yes, Claire is crazy; the only way they could have indicated it more strongly is by having a big flashing subtitle reading "crazy" every time she appeared on the screen) is not just bad, it's pure evil.


Agreed, I was about to post this. Smokey is acting evil based on his lie to Claire about Aron. Felt pretty clearly revealed this week.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I'd bet a lot of money that Juliet is David's mother.

Would still leave the door open for her and Sawyer to get some coffee in the flash-sideways and her being with Jack at first makes sense with all the parallels from the island that we are seeing in the parallel timeline.

I also think it's interesting that Richard though the temple was the safest place and he was dead wrong...


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> I wonder who David's mother is going to be.
> 
> I have suspicions.


I was about to post Juliet, then saw GDG76's post, so I'll just agree.



JYoung said:


> Or did they?
> 
> Is the alternate timeline some kind of elaborate psychodrama?
> 
> Why did Samurai leader appear at David's recital?


How about this? We're not really watching flash sideways, but flashforwards of how things will be after the characters who are still on the island finish doing whatever it is they need to do this season. The bomb was just a red herring. None of the things happening in the so-called sideways are in a currently existing alternate timeline, but are in fact glimpses into what everyone's lives will ultimately be like after the on-island events of this season play out.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> Anyone else expect David to reply to Jack when asked what he was listening to and say "drive shaft" ??





tgrim1 said:


> I was totally waiting for that. But then seeing how it played out with the audition it was probably classical.


When Jack and David "talked" at the fridge and the earbuds were out you could tell it was hard rock, not classical, I would lay good money on it being Driveshaft myself at this time.

Diane


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

3D said:


> How about this? We're not really watching flash sideways, but flashforwards of how things will be after the characters who are still on the island finish doing whatever it is they need to do this season. The bomb was just a red herring. None of the things happening in the so-called sideways are in a currently existing alternate timeline, but are in fact glimpses into what everyone's lives will ultimately be like after the on-island events of this season play out.


That's been suggested before, but it makes no sense from a storytelling point of view. It would suck all the drama out of the show if the grand conclusion is what we've been watching all season.

I still say the two worlds are headed for a collision of some kind.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

My friend's
THEORY IN A NUTSHELL:

The smoke monster is Lucifer who will be "loosed" upon the world.

The writers of LOST are occultists &#8211; in the truest sense of the word. "LOST" is a symbolic representation of the events leading to the release of Lucifer and the coming Antichrist, a theme embedded into both the manifest and latent storyline by occultist writers.... 

The Candidates:

4 (Locke); 8 (Reyes); 15 (Ford); 16 (Jarrah); 23 (Shephard); 42 (Kwon)

Jacob, also known as Israel, was the third patriarch of the Jewish people, and ancestor of the twelve tribes of Israel. Before the birth of Benjamin, Jacob is renamed "Israel" by an angel, the name after which the modern nation of Israel is named. Jacob represents the good shepherd &#8211; the one with knowledge of good and evil, shepherding the people (a.k.a., the ignorant masses).



The &#8220;loophole&#8221; referred to by Jacob and the smoke monster (who was in the form of that dark-haired guy) while they were sitting on the beach (probably in the 1700's) viewing the sailboat out at sea, and then referred to again right before Jacob&#8217;s murder, probably has to do with the fact that it was Benjamin who killed Jacob (one of Jacob&#8217;s own; father and son).

In the Bible, Benjamin was the twelfth and youngest son of Jacob. Benjamin&#8217;s mother was Rachel, Jacob's wife. Rachel named him "Ben-oni," meaning "Son of my sorrow," before she died during the childbirth, but Jacob called him Benjamin. In LOST, Benjamin's mother died during childbirth, just like in the Biblical version. The tie-in is clear.

The smoke monster (as Locke) removing the white stone from the balance and leaving the black stone represents the killing of Jacob, who was the &#8220;white stone&#8221; keeping the "black stone" (smoke monster) in check (imprisoned on the island). Jacob really knew what was to happen, that&#8217;s why he so easily allowed Benjamin to kill him. Jacob, anticipating these events (destiny), is looking for his replacement to continue his task. 

Taking the form of John Locke is fitting for Lucifer. "John Locke" was an English philosopher regarded as one of the most influential of Enlightenment thinkers. Locke's political theory was founded on social contract theory. Social contract describes a broad class of theories that try to explain the ways in which people form states to maintain social order. The notion of the social contract implies that the people give up sovereignty to a government or other authority in order to receive or maintain social order through the rule of law. Lucifer taking the form of &#8220;John Locke&#8221; (Antichrist) makes sense in light of the story of Armageddon in the Book of Revelation. (Plus, Locke is a bald white guy, and we all know that white man is the devil.)


The "smoke monster" wants to kill all of the "candidates" (candidates for Jacob's job of keeping the smoke monster in check, shepherding the people, preserving the knowledge, etc., etc.).

In the episode two weeks ago, the last thing Locke tells James is: "Do you want to go home?" James answered, "yes." But "going home" means dying (or being killed), because when James dies (and when the rest of the candidates die) they will all "go home" -- which means they will consolidate into their alternate existence, which is the existence where they never went to the island (caused by the nuke). Notice what Juliet told Miles after she died: "It worked!" 

This is what the smoke monster wants, so that there is no successor to Jacob- nothing to keep him in balance, or in check, as it were.

The torch will be passed to Jack ("the Good Shepherd"); the other candidates will be killed. The smoke monster (Lucifer) will escape ... as Locke. The finale will leave us hanging in this situation.

... with the real show soon to begin.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's been suggested before, but it makes no sense from a storytelling point of view. It would suck all the drama out of the show if the grand conclusion is what we've been watching all season


It would not necessarily suck all the drama out of the show. I think there are many ways it could play out that would be fine from a dramatic standpoint, although they would need to start doing more with the flashes than they've done so far. Taking a cue from danterner's very well thought out earlier post, maybe we're seeing everyone getting the one thing they really want, but we just don't know it yet. Locke wants a life with Helen and his father; Jack wants to be a better father to a kid than his father was to him (I would guess that Jack's comment last night that he'd make a lousy father is more than the throwaway it came across as); Hurley wants to be happy; Kate wants her freedom; Claire wants her baby; haven't seen enough to make judgments on the others just yet, but I have to ask. Do we know for sure that Sun speaks English in the alternate world we've been seeing? Maybe she really doesn't speak English and in this version of events, her and Jin are not having any marriage problems. Thus, her failure to come to Jin's defense at the airport was actually quite innocent. Just a thought.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

I like the idea that maybe we've actually been seeing an epilogue off the island. When all the crazyness is over on the island, we'll have seen how everything back home has played out. That's kinda cool.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

DancnDude said:


> I like the idea that maybe we've actually been seeing an epilogue off the island. When all the crazyness is over on the island, we'll have seen how everything back home has played out. That's kinda cool.


I've been thinking lately that something will happen that makes the flash sideways the real time line.

Only it wasn't Jughead exploding - whatever causes the flash sideways to be the "real timeline" hasn't really happened yet on island. And I don't know how they will reconcile that since they said no more time travel, but who knows..


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DancnDude said:


> I like the idea that maybe we've actually been seeing an epilogue off the island. When all the crazyness is over on the island, we'll have seen how everything back home has played out. That's kinda cool.


Thank you! That one word sums up what I've spent paragraphs discussing with people in hallways.

Rob, as was just said, it can still be suspenseful - in fact I think it implies that we've got a MORE suspenseful, satisfying ending coming than just seeing how people's lives would turn out.

I do like the idea though that both realities have always existed, they're intertwined, and things bleed over from one to another.

I'm glad I'm not a writer for Lost right about now. WE get to enjoy the ride we're on, and they know what's coming up and can't be surprised by it.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Wait, so you're saying that Claire is Smokey? Where did you get that? Just because she said UnLocke was her friend?


Claire said that it was a good thing that Kate didn't really have Aaron, because her friend would kill her. (Kate)


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Are both Smokie and Jacob appearing to Jack as Christian Shepard in Season 1?

Clip One - Smokie






Can't find the Cave clip from Season One. Anyone have better luck?

Not the clip I was looking for:

But look at this clip and see the first time Christian praises Jack and how it was purely for manipulative purposes. Good to see that Alternative Jack loves his son unconditionally.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

GDG76 said:


> I've been thinking lately that something will happen that makes the flash sideways the real time line.
> 
> Only it wasn't Jughead exploding - whatever causes the flash sideways to be the "real timeline" hasn't really happened yet on island. And I don't know how they will reconcile that since they said no more time travel, but who knows..


A) When exactly did they say no more time travel? Because we just saw another flash to bring them to 2007.

B) Even if they said that, I think they can hide that piece from us if it's necessary for the conclusion. One more flash brings us back to change something that changes everything.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Thank you! That one word sums up what I've spent paragraphs discussing with people in hallways.
> 
> Rob, as was just said, it can still be suspenseful - in fact I think it implies that we've got a MORE suspenseful, satisfying ending coming than just seeing how people's lives would turn out.


Well, this is one of those times where I am willing to say, flat-out, no. It won't happen that way. It just makes no story-sense whatsoever. Can't happen. (Enough rope there? )

I guess we'll find out soon enough!


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

whitson77 said:


> Are both Smokie and Jacob appearing to Jack as Christian Shepard in Season 1?
> 
> Clip One - Smokie


There's two minutes I'm not getting back.
Why does everyone always put music in their YouTube videos?


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> There's two minutes I'm not getting back.
> Why does everyone always put music in their YouTube videos?


I thought it was interesting. Sorry....


----------



## BluesFools (Apr 5, 2000)

This continues the season's theme of echoing the season one episodes. Following the Kate and Locke episodes, now we get a Jack episode. S1E5 was "White Rabbit", which matches up to the Alice reference. Christian told Jack that he doesn't "have what it takes", and that was the line that Jack reacted too here. "White Rabbit" was when the caves were discovered, along with the coffin which Jack smashed, and here they are again. Jack's mother, not exactly a regular character, appears in the off-island parts of both episodes.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

mmilton80 said:


> Jack smash.
> 
> I wonder if Wallace (number 108) is looking for his soul.


I think the ending of this show is going to be the end-all, be-all TV crossover show.

David Wallace from The Office ends up in the finale of Lost, along with the whacky group from Scranton.

:up:

I'd actually applaud that ending. Dwight starts worshiping Locke and his knives and survival skillz. Jim and Pam try to have a baby on the Island, but Jim is distracted by playing practical jokes on Sayid.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I loved that part. We think we know that Jacob is the good guy and he's trying to help our castaways, and we have a lot more information than Jack to suggest that, but from Jack's perspective all these powerful groups and individuals that inhabit the Island have been using him and his friends for their own strange and secret purposes, and now he sees through the mirror that they've been meddling in their lives for years before they even got to the island. Now Hurley has been given instructions and they are both expected to follow them blindly, without being told the consequences. Jack's not in the mood to be anyone's *****. If this invisible guy Jacob wants something from Jack, he's going to have to show him the respect of meeting Jack face to face. I'm loving Jack right now.


Hmm...

I get ya on that. I'd feel like Jack too. As others have said, Jack Smash is probably what Jacob predicted and Jack probably did exactly what the puppet master told him to.

But dood... Jack, you just found a lighthouse. It might actually be functional. It might get you off the island (which I think he wants again).

Not to mention finding some magical mirror. Hell, Hurley might have wanted to check what it showed Hurley.

If you're frustrated go kick a tree.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

MickeS said:


> Jack had appendicitis on the island (IIRC Juliet did surgery on him). I wonder what it meant that in the flash sideways he didn't remember the surgery as a kid that he supposedly had...





betts4 said:


> That's what I was wondering. I remembered the Island incident, but they are telling us it happened when he was 7 and that his dad wanted to do the surgery. I wonder if he was supposed to 'not quite' remember it right because it really happened on the island.


I think the reason Jack didn't remember is simply because he was only seven years old. As to why he asked his mom about it in this episode, I have no idea.

The big question is, what possibly could have been changed by setting off the nuke that caused him to have appendicitis at age 7 instead of when he ended up getting it on the island?


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> I think the ending of this show is going to be the end-all, be-all TV crossover show.
> 
> David Wallace from The Office ends up in the finale of Lost, along with the whacky group from Scranton.
> 
> ...


I can see it now... the final scene of lost will be Darlton fronting the new Driveshaft... Charlie on bass, Wallace's son on drums and Jack's son on keyboard, singing to the viewers about how they've taken us for a 6 year ride... "You all everybody... can SUCK IT!!!"


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> If you're frustrated go kick a tree.


That'd just hurt your foot.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, and I think that regardless of whether Jacob is the/a good guy, this episode pretty much laid to rest any doubt that not-Locke is the/a bad guy. Because the way he's playing crazy Claire (and yes, Claire is crazy; the only way they could have indicated it more strongly is by having a big flashing subtitle reading "crazy" every time she appeared on the screen) is not just bad, it's pure evil.


I think we all know Claire's not right in the head.

I think what some of us are not quite decided upon is:

1) Is she crazy from losing a child and being alone for 3 years and hunted like a wolf? That would make anyone crazy

2) Is she crazy because Smokey's inside her (or she's affected, or whatever)


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> I think the reason Jack didn't remember is simply because he was only seven years old. As to why he asked his mom about it in this episode, I have no idea.
> 
> The big question is, what possibly could have been changed by setting off the nuke that caused him to have appendicitis at age 7 instead of when he ended up getting it on the island?


I don't think it's _simply_ because he was only seven years old. I think it's because it happened to him at two different times in two different lives and his mind is having a difficult time reconciling it.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

whitson77 said:


> Are both Smokie and Jacob appearing to Jack as Christian Shepard in Season 1?


I wonder if it was Smokie appearing to Claire as Christian at the end of Season 3 (if I'm getting my seasons mixed up, I'm thinking of when she was in the cabin with Christian after disappearing and abandoning Aaron).

I've always been puzzled about Christian, i.e. the "dead" Christian since he really doesn't act like the living Christian. Perhaps the smoke monster was appearing as Christian the way he's appearing as Locke now. Of course, Christian's body had disappeared, but Locke's didn't. Also would that mean that it was also Smokie appearing as Christian to Locke before he turned the donkey wheel?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

GDG76 said:


> I'd bet a lot of money that Juliet is David's mother.


Why?

I don't doubt you, and I don't follow enough to have much of an opinion. But I like reading what makes people think certain things.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

In the episode where Jack had appendicitis, did he try to do the operation himself? I'm remembering something like that. If so, that's got to be some kind of tie in to his father wanting to do it in the flash sideways.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

andyw715 said:


> My friend's
> THEORY IN A NUTSHELL:


Sound too religical for mainstream TV on a large network.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jking said:


> I don't think it's _simply_ because he was only seven years old. I think it's because it happened to him at two different times in two different lives and his mind is having a difficult time reconciling it.


Possible I guess. I don't recall Locke having some sense of deja vu when he met Ben or Hurley, so I'm less inclined to think so.

But my main point is that I don't think that's as important as why he needed it taken out at age 7.


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

I would be surprised if Jacob ends up being "bad". I do think he is manipulating people to a large extent, but I think he is in a struggle with evil and hates to cause harm and doesn't sacrifice his pawns if he can help it. Smokie just kills and wants to reek havok and escape the island and kill everyone. IMO


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

aindik said:


> In the episode where Jack had appendicitis, did he try to do the operation himself? I'm remembering something like that. If so, that's got to be some kind of tie in to his father wanting to do it in the flash sideways.


I don't think he wanted to do it himself, but he wanted to remain awake during the procedure so that he could talk Juliette through it.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Why?
> 
> I don't doubt you, and I don't follow enough to have much of an opinion. But I like reading what makes people think certain things.


As I said in the previous post, it is how it happened on the island.. Jack and Juliet were together at first then her with Sawyer. Them being divorced also allows for her and Sawyer to get together, which they foreshadowed when she died.

Plus, they are both doctors so it makes sense they could possibly end up together.

Also, the fact that they didn't show her this episode and she will likely only have very limited appearances...

And lastly, no other caucasian woman who could have bore a child 11 yrs ago in the show's timeline makes any sense...

I guess Libby could be a possibility, but she will be more intertwined with Hurley most likely...


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

whitson77 said:


> I would be surprised if Jacob ends up being "bad". I do think he is manipulating people to a large extent, but I think he is in a struggle with evil and hates to cause harm and doesn't sacrifice his pawns if he can help it. Smokie just kills and wants to reek havok and escape the island and kill everyone. IMO


What is good for individuals is not always good for mankind in general.. though that could support that either FakeLocke or Jacob coudl be "bad" or "good".

And I always thought smokie would reek of sulfur or gunpowder or something like that


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

aindik said:


> In the episode where Jack had appendicitis, did he try to do the operation himself? I'm remembering something like that. If so, that's got to be some kind of tie in to his father wanting to do it in the flash sideways.


Jack just wanted to be awake, but they eventually had to put him under. Kate did joke at one point about being surprised that Jack didn't want to take it out himself.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I loved that part. We think we know that Jacob is the good guy and he's trying to help our castaways, and we have a lot more information than Jack to suggest that, but from Jack's perspective all these powerful groups and individuals that inhabit the Island have been using him and his friends for their own strange and secret purposes, and now he sees through the mirror that they've been meddling in their lives for years before they even got to the island. Now Hurley has been given instructions and they are both expected to follow them blindly, without being told the consequences. Jack's not in the mood to be anyone's *****. If this invisible guy Jacob wants something from Jack, he's going to have to show him the respect of meeting Jack face to face. I'm loving Jack right now.


Of course, this was apparently what Jacob wanted and expected. Quite the chess player, that Jacob.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> When Hurley was talking about walking through the jungle on some mission they didn't quite understand being just like old times I had to smile, and when Jack said "We're at the caves" it gave me a jolt of happy season one nostalgia.


In last week's EW article, one of the actors mentioned that this was the feeling on the set too, when they were going back to soundstages and locations they hadn't used since season 1 and season 2.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

whitson77 said:


> I would be surprised if Jacob ends up being "bad". I do think he is manipulating people to a large extent, but I think he is in a struggle with evil and hates to cause harm and doesn't sacrifice his pawns if he can help it. Smokie just kills and wants to reek havok and escape the island and kill everyone. IMO


I'm with you.

I'm not even so convinced that one is bad and one is good. The good vs. evil is a popular theme, but I'm not so sure it's the one at play here.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Alternate world Jack and Kate both had moments of recognition (no, not recognition, what word am I looking for?) while looking in mirrors. Jack has had two actually, one on the plane and one tonight. Kate had hers in the garage bathroom. Now we see mirrors that reflect distant places. A connection there? I sure don't know.
> 
> I'm wondering if the alternate timelines are merging or is it that information is being passed between them. If they are merging have they always been separate and the bomb created a pathway between them? (That would suggest other timelines as well, maybe an infinite number, which we haven't seen evidence of.) Or did a split occur at the bomb point in 1977. Someone elsewhere said they did the math and alt Jack's appendix surgery would have been in 1977, which is vaguely suggestive if not helpful.


I was wondering if in the Sideways timeline, it split apart because Jacob didn't go around to recruit/touch them.


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## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

GDG76 said:


> Also, the fact that they didn't show her this episode and she will likely only have very limited appearances...


Ah, I was thinking "they can't show the mom because Julie Bowen is on another show now." But Elizabeth Mitchell is on another show now too, right?

I never even thought it could be Juliet. I gave up on trying to figure out the timeline a long time ago, and have no idea how many years Jack's marriage lasted or who else the mom could be other than his ex-wife. But now that I've read the thread, it could be anyone I guess. When his wife divorced him, they specifically said they had no children, didn't they? :sigh: This show makes my head hurt from trying to remember things that happened so long ago.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

DancnDude said:


> I like the idea that maybe we've actually been seeing an epilogue off the island. When all the crazyness is over on the island, we'll have seen how everything back home has played out. That's kinda cool.


No way. None of the facts presented in the show support this. Kate would be 60 years old in these scenes if you wanted it to be a continuation of the 1977 timeline, which seems to me would be the only way to make the marshal escorting her still be alive.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Magnolia88 said:


> Ah, I was thinking "they can't show the mom because Julie Bowen is on another show now." But Elizabeth Mitchell is on another show now too, right?
> 
> I never even thought it could be Juliet. I gave up on trying to figure out the timeline a long time ago, and have no idea how many years Jack's marriage lasted or who else the mom could be other than his ex-wife. But now that I've read the thread, it could be anyone I guess. When his wife divorced him, they specifically said they had no children, didn't they? :sigh: This show makes my head hurt from trying to remember things that happened so long ago.


But that was a different world.

Remember, this world was different as long ago as when Jack was 7. Anything since at least then could be different. Jack could have met, married, spawned with, and divorced Juliet (or anybody else) long ago.

The reason for the Juliet theories is that the "new world" seems to have a lot of just-off symmetries with the "real world," and having Juliet be the ex fits in with that.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> screencaps for the Lighthouse show 108 is a crossed out name; "Wallace", and that Austen is number 51 (click the pics for a better look).
> 
> 
> Hmm...


Maybe Wallace = "Waaaalllt!"


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But that was a different world.
> 
> Remember, this world was different as long ago as when Jack was 7. Anything since at least then could be different. Jack could have met, married, spawned with, and divorced Juliet (or anybody else) long ago.
> 
> The reason for the Juliet theories is that the "new world" seems to have a lot of just-off symmetries with the "real world," and having Juliet be the ex fits in with that.


I think in the new world, Juliet ends up with Sawyer. That's what she seemed to be telling us right before she died on the island.

Generic observation about when I hear Damon and Carlton talk about a particular character:


Spoiler



Whenever I hear them talk about Jack, they talk about him as an essentially tragic and broken figure. It wouldn't surprise me if he ends up with nobody.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

aindik said:


> I think in the new world, Juliet ends up with Sawyer. That's what she seemed to be telling us right before she died on the island.


She could be Jack's ex wife and still end up with Sawyer.

Was anyone else struck by how differently than the other names "Shepherd" looked on the compass? Was that simply so it would stand out more for the tv screen? It almost looked as if another name could have been written in that spot and erased and replaced by Shepherd.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

MickeS said:


> No way. None of the facts presented in the show support this. Kate would be 60 years old in these scenes if you wanted it to be a continuation of the 1977 timeline, which seems to me would be the only way to make the marshal escorting her still be alive.


I think you're misunderstanding what was being discussed. Nobody is saying that it's a continuation of the 1977 timeline as if they lived their lives as adults beginning in 1977.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jking said:


> She could be Jack's ex wife and still end up with Sawyer.


Right, hence the symmetry (Juliet was mixed up with Jack in the original world before she hooked up with Sawyer).


----------



## Waldorf (Oct 4, 2002)

3D said:


> How about this? We're not really watching flash sideways, but flashforwards of how things will be after the characters who are still on the island finish doing whatever it is they need to do this season. The bomb was just a red herring. None of the things happening in the so-called sideways are in a currently existing alternate timeline, but are in fact glimpses into what everyone's lives will ultimately be like after the on-island events of this season play out.


Wait... how would those be flash-sideways or flash-forwards?

The "flashes" to Jack helping his mom find his dad's will and Kate running from the marshal are very soon after the plane landed in L.A. in 2004.

The "flashes" to Jack and Hurley looking for the lighthouse and others at the temple are in 2007.

... right?


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Well, they're sideways to season one anyway, so they're sideways to sump'n.


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

When Jack was at his mom's house she had a couple of folders in her hands. One of them was in English (don't remember what it said though) and the other folder had a label in arabic. Or some sort of script like that, Hebrew maybe? I'd be interested in knowing what it said.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

MikeMar said:


> Anyone else expect David to reply to Jack when asked what he was listening to and say "drive shaft" ??


I was expecting Geronimo Jackson, actually.



GDG76 said:


> And lastly, no other caucasian woman who could have bore a child 11 yrs ago in the show's timeline makes any sense...


I don't understand why it couldn't simply be his (ex) wife? As far as we know, this is a totally different timeline from what we know from the original season's flashbacks, so changes happen.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Totally random theory (that I don't actually think is the case but wanted to bring up anyway)....

So, we learned this episode that Sideways-Jack (23) has a kid. Sawyer (15) has a kid (in the original timeline), as does the Kwon (42) family.

We know that Sideways-Locke (4) does not have a child, but we don't know that for Sayid (16) or Hurley (8). If one of them turns out to have a kid, too, I think this theory might actually hold some water. Plus Sideways-Locke's about to get married, so maybe they would end up with children afterwards.

What if the names on the wall/wheel are not of the people we know, but of their kids? More importantly, what if it's not of their kids in our normal timeline, but in the LA X timeline? They're last names, after all, and I can't think of a better reason for it to be last names than for it to be offspring related.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

hapdrastic said:


> I was expecting Geronimo Jackson, actually.
> 
> I don't understand why it couldn't simply be his (ex) wife? As far as we know, this is a totally different timeline from what we know from the original season's flashbacks, so changes happen.


I guess it's possible, but things would have had to happen under entirely different circumstances. They would have had to meet much earlier than they did in the original timeline.

It also seems clear that the nuke impacted Jack in other ways than just the appendix at age 7. His mother appeared to be an alcoholic last night, but IIRC that wasn't the case when we'd seen her previously, correct?

Also, Jack's mom found the will with Claire's name in it. Wouldn't it make sense that in the original timeline, she would also have found the will at some point, and if it mentioned Claire, wouldn't she have told Jack about it when he returned from the island?


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Rob, as was just said, it can still be suspenseful - in fact I think it implies that we've got a MORE suspenseful, satisfying ending coming than just seeing how people's lives would turn out.


I agree. If they wanted to tell the stories of people's lives after the island was ultimately destroyed, I don't see any other way to make it suspenseful than this. What's interesting to us is what happens to the island. If they told the island story during the first half of the season, the rest of the story would be merely a soap opera. Doing it this way allows the suspense of what happens on the island to build until the finale, and once that happened, we would know how the rest of the characters' lives played out.

That being said, even though I do see it as a valid possibility, I don't personally think that is what is happening. The fact that the sunken island had Dharma buildings indicates to me that it was somehow tied to the nuke. I think if the island is destroyed in the finale, it will be either in the present or from existence. So if there is a new timeline, I don't think it will be the one they are currently showing.



MickeS said:


> Of course, this was apparently what Jacob wanted and expected. Quite the chess player, that Jacob.


Yeah, I thought the dialog between Hurley and Jacob made it quite clear that Jacob didn't really care about whoever needed to get to the island using the lighthouse, if there was even someone who actually had that need:



> Jacob: How'd it go?
> 
> Hurley: Where were you man?
> 
> ...


The immediate purpose of Hurley and Jack going to the lighthouse was to get them away from the Temple without them warning anyone else that something was going to happen. The second, longer-term purpose was to push Jack in a certain direction after him seeing his childhood home in the mirror.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

A theory I read elsewhere suggested that Juliet was the one that shot Claire when they were in the canoes, and that the bullet wound Claire received was from this and not from the Others as she thinks, and that the oar that Jin used to stand up in the tent is a clue to this connection.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Haven't we heard Smokey described as a "security system" in the past? What exactly is Smokey securing? Securing Jacob from leaving the island? It's Smokey, not Jacob, that seems so intent on leaving. What does it mean that the security system wants to leave?



Queue said:


> When Jack was at his mom's house she had a couple of folders in her hands. One of them was in English (don't remember what it said though) and the other folder had a label in arabic. Or some sort of script like that, Hebrew maybe? I'd be interested in knowing what it said.


Similarly, I'd be interested to see a translation of what Dogen said to Hurley in Japanese in the back hallway of the Temple.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

danterner said:


> Haven't we heard Smokey described as a "security system" in the past? What exactly is Smokey securing? Securing Jacob from leaving the island? It's Smokey, not Jacob, that seems so intent on leaving. What does it mean that the security system wants to leave?


Rousseau called it a security system. Don't recall whether anyone else did. Perhaps she was mistaken?


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Some of my $0.02 and change...



uncdrew said:


> I think we all know Claire's not right in the head.
> 
> I think what some of us are not quite decided upon is:
> 
> ...


I think they damn nearly telegraphed to us that it's #2.

She kept mentioning her "friend". That "friend" turned out to be Flocke/Smokey, who gave her a great big evil grin to close out the episode.



andyw715 said:


> My friend's
> THEORY IN A NUTSHELL:
> 
> The smoke monster is Lucifer who will be "loosed" upon the world.
> ...


andyw does an excellent job of articulating and fleshing out the same theory I've been formulating since this season began.

In previous seasons, it was never clear who was "good" and who was "evil".

It's becoming clear now: Jacob is "good", Smokey is "evil".

Most everyone who has visited the island during it's history has been "courted" by both good and evil. Some have gone one way, some another, some remained relatively neutral.

Claire has been completely possessed, ("infected") with evil by Smokey.

Rousseau, on the other hand, was not "infected". The other members of her crew probably *were.*

Being forced to kill her crew, including the man she loved in order to survive, losing her child, and then living in isolation for 16 years drove her a little crazy, but she managed to not get "infected".

Her calling Smokey a "security system" was a red herring, deliberately put in by the writers to keep us guessing and discussing. She was only guessing as to what Smokey was. She didn't understand that Smokey was the source of the "infection" that claimed the rest of her crew.


----------



## goMO (Dec 29, 2004)

and if Smokey is the bad guy and Ben is aligned with Jacob, how could Ben "summon" Smokey on command??


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

goMO said:


> and if Smokey is the bad guy and Ben is aligned with Jacob, how could Ben "summon" Smokey on command??


Ben is clearly not aligned with Jacob. He wanted to be. But for some reason, Jacob never showed himself to Ben.

Ben spent most of his life clueless, and only recently, still clueless, was more-or-less duped into killing Jacob, thus helping Smokey.

Smokey openly "courts" potential allies. He openly courted Ben, but somehow, I don't think he totally "infected" him like he did Claire.

I still can't figure out Richard. For as ageless (immortal?) as he appears to be, he seems to be almost as clueless as to what's actually going on as Ben, Real-Locke (before he died), or anybody else.

I also think the "others" in general, do a lot of guessing. They've concluded that Sayid is "infected" and so is Claire.

I think they're right about Claire. They may be mistaken about Sayid. Time will tell...


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

3D said:


> I think you're misunderstanding what was being discussed. Nobody is saying that it's a continuation of the 1977 timeline as if they lived their lives as adults beginning in 1977.


What timeline that we are already familiar with would it be a continuation ("epilogue") of then, in which the marshal is alive?

Seems pretty clear to me that it's an alternate reality, and not a continuation of a previously established timeline.


----------



## goMO (Dec 29, 2004)

If Ben isn't/wasn't aligned with Jacob, why did Richard take him and "heal" him when he was a boy? Doesn't Richard work on Jacob's behalf?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Rousseau called it a security system. Don't recall whether anyone else did. Perhaps she was mistaken?





Fish Man said:


> Her calling Smokey a "security system" was a red herring, deliberately put in by the writers to keep us guessing and discussing. She was only guessing as to what Smokey was. She didn't understand that Smokey was the source of the "infection" that claimed the rest of her crew.


The only references to Smokey being a "security system" are once from Rousseau, and once from her husband. No one else has ever called it that, certainly not the others.



> *from Season One Episode 23 - Exodus Part 1
> *
> [We hear the sounds of the monster and see Arzt running around. Danielle runs into a bamboo stand.]
> 
> ...





> *from Season Five Episode 5 - This Place is Death*
> 
> [Jin is alone at the Temple. He finds Montand's severed arm with
> approximately two months of decay. He leaves, climbs a hill and finds some
> ...





goMO said:


> and if Smokey is the bad guy and Ben is aligned with Jacob, how could Ben "summon" Smokey on command??


Still a mystery. Wonder if we will ever get the story behind the relationship of Ben & Smokey?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Rousseau called it a security system. Don't recall whether anyone else did. Perhaps she was mistaken?


EDIT:Beaten to 'submit'

References:



Season 1 said:


> DANIELLE: We're safe now.
> KATE: What was that thing?
> DANIELLE: It's a *security system*.
> JACK: Security system? What does that mean?
> ...





Seaon 1 said:


> LOCKE: We should stagger our formation -- keep a safe distance from each other.
> JACK: Alright, we stagger. If anyone hears anything or sees anything...
> HURLEY: Like the security system that eats people?
> JACK: Yeah, like that. You 2, you take your packs off, you put them down and you run. You got it?





Season 5 said:


> ROBERT: Danielle, je t'en prie. Pose ton arme. Je t'aime, pourquoi tu agis comme ça? [Danielle, please, put down your gun. I love you, why are you acting like this?]
> DANIELLE: Parce que t'es pas Robert. T'es malade. Ce monstre t'a rendu malade. [Because you're not Robert, you've changed. That monster changed you.]
> ROBERT: Mais il n'y a pas de monstre. C'est un système de sécurité qui garde ce temple, c'est tout. [There is no monster. It's just a *security system* that guards the temple, that's all.]
> ROBERT: Maintenant, pose ton fusil. [Now put down your gun.]
> ...


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

MickeS said:


> What timeline that we are already familiar with would it be a continuation ("epilogue") of then, in which the marshal is alive?
> 
> Seems pretty clear to me that it's an alternate reality, and not a continuation of a previously established timeline.


The alternate timeline we're seeing back on the mainland is what the world would be like if the island were destroyed in 1977.

In 1977, the main cast of Losties who we are following on the mainland, either weren't born yet or were children.

In a "reality" where the island was destroyed in 1977, there are ramifications, large and small, for everyone on earth, including our familiar Losties.

One (of gazzilions of) example: In the "prime reality" Hurley got his lottery numbers from some crazy dude who heard them being broadcast from the radio tower on the island.

In the _alternate reality_, *that radio tower doesn't exist at the time the crazy dude would have heard the numbers!* So, in the "alternate reality" Hurley picked his numbers some other way (they may or may not even be the same numbers), but he still won the lottery. However, he doesn't consider the numbers he used to be "cursed" or consider himself unlucky.

Similar differences would exist in the lives of Kate, Jack, Locke, Sayid, etc. by the island *not existing* for over 30 prior to the point we're observing their lives now.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

3D said:


> Taking a cue from danterner's very well thought out earlier post, maybe we're seeing everyone getting the one thing they really want, but we just don't know it yet. Locke wants a life with Helen and his father; Jack wants to be a better father to a kid than his father was to him (I would guess that Jack's comment last night that he'd make a lousy father is more than the throwaway it came across as); Hurley wants to be happy; Kate wants her freedom; Claire wants her baby; haven't seen enough to make judgments on the others just yet, but I have to ask. Do we know for sure that Sun speaks English in the alternate world we've been seeing? Maybe she really doesn't speak English and in this version of events, her and Jin are not having any marriage problems. Thus, her failure to come to Jin's defense at the airport was actually quite innocent. Just a thought.


I've been thinking more about this, and about character motivation. I really like the way it ties into the free-will/determinism theme that has predominated throughout the series. If you really want something, you can get it. You can think it into being. It's "The Secret." But you have to make a willing choice to make it so.

I'm reminded of the first season episode "House of the Rising Sun" (I think it was pretty early in the season) - Charlie is upset over having lost his guitar. Locke tells him that he will find his guitar again, just have faith. Later, in the jungle, Locke confronts Charlie about his drug use and says that Charlie will be running out of drugs soon. Locke says Charlie should give up his drug habit by choice, and that if he wants his guitar more than the drugs the Island Will Provide. Charlie gives up the heroin to Locke and -- voila -- there is Charlie's guitar stuck up on the side of a cliff/tree. I think there have been lots of other examples of this type of thing throughout the show. Yemi's plane comes to mind as one.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

goMO said:


> If Ben isn't/wasn't aligned with Jacob, why did Richard take him and "heal" him when he was a boy? Doesn't Richard work on Jacob's behalf?


My take is that both Jacob and Smokey "courted" Ben, as they both courted Locke, and several other people. Perhaps all the "candidates", to various degrees.

Ben was never completely aligned. It's strange how Jacob never showed himself to Ben, as he apparently did to most/all previous leaders of the "others". Perhaps he knew, or maybe only suspected, that Ben was destined to kill him.


----------



## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> I think the reason Jack didn't remember is simply because he was only seven years old. As to why he asked his mom about it in this episode, I have no idea.
> 
> The big question is, what possibly could have been changed by setting off the nuke that caused him to have appendicitis at age 7 instead of when he ended up getting it on the island?





MickeS said:


> Jack had appendicitis on the island (IIRC Juliet did surgery on him). I wonder what it meant that in the flash sideways he didn't remember the surgery as a kid that he supposedly had...





betts4 said:


> That's what I was wondering. I remembered the Island incident, but they are telling us it happened when he was 7 and that his dad wanted to do the surgery. I wonder if he was supposed to 'not quite' remember it right because it really happened on the island.





jking said:


> I don't think it's _simply_ because he was only seven years old. I think it's because it happened to him at two different times in two different lives and his mind is having a difficult time reconciling it.


As they've told us many times -- What happened happened. Jack had appendix surgery in 1977. Everytime he's been there the same thing happened, whether he was 7 yrs old or an adult. Locke is paralyzed as an adult, regardless of how it happened. Charlie is supposed to die....because that's what happened.


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

Ramblings:

Last week we were introduced to a dark cave, a "dark house," if you will. This week we were shown an actual "light"house. Both contained names of candidates. I could envision Jacob in the lighthouse and FakeLocke in the dark cave. But not so much the other way around.

Last season, Jacob's "last" words were "_They're coming_." Now he's telling Hurley that _somebody_ is coming to the Island. Is the _somebody_ related to the boy that appeared to NotLocke/Sawyer last week? My theory that extraterrestrials are coming to judge the human race still seems to hold a little water. 

One other thought came to me last night -- in the last 2 seasons, various characters said something to the effect that Widmore (and the people on the freighter) "wanted to kill _every living thing_ on this island," or "kill _everyone_ on this island." I think it was mentioned 2-3 times, and I always thought that was odd. Why kill _*everyone*_? All Widmore supposedly wanted was Ben Linus. Why not just take him and leave? And what was up with that Dharma station that would allow them to supposedly gas everybody on the Island? Now NotLocke is seemingly trying to recruit people to leave the Island.

Is there something the Island can only do once all _*human*_ life is off it? Like fly away back to its home planet, perhaps?  Jacob kept bringing more people to the Island, and MIB did not seem to be happy about it. And I've never really bought into the concept of an Island "_sinking_", either. But a spaceship could sink....

Regarding Lindelof/Cuse comments on Jack in the past -- they have said "Jack is our hero" several times.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> As they've told us many times -- What happened happened. Jack had appendix surgery in 1977. Everytime he's been there the same thing happened, whether he was 7 yrs old or an adult. Locke is paralyzed as an adult, regardless of how it happened. Charlie is supposed to die....because that's what happened.


In the original timeline, Jack _didn't_ have appendix surgery in 1977. Otherwise, his appendix wouldn't have been there in 2004.


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## BK89 (Oct 11, 2005)

I am a bit surprised there isn't more discussion regarding the Lighthouse that no one has ever seen before. The first thing I said to myself when Jack and Hurley arrive to the lighthouse is "how did they never see this thing in all the treks they have had across the island"? And immediately Jack asks the same question. I was hoping for a little more of an explanation than "I guess we just weren't looking for it Dude". I know we accept these things to go on the ride that is the story but this has me especially irritated. I guess I just didn't like how Hurley just kind of casually explains it and then is like no big deal lets move along.  

Being that the cliff was close to the caves, it seems like it would be a pretty well explored area. I like how neither of them were really surprised either, like "oh yeah giant lighthouse, guess we missed it on our first five trips over here. Oh well". Hard to miss a three story tall building. I am hoping there is a better explanation coming than Hurley's one liner.

Edit - it almost seems out of character for Hurley to just say I guess we werent looking for it. That seems more like a Locke comment. I would have thought Hurley would be the one freaking out, saying "Holy crap dude, where the hell did that thing come from? How did I never see this before?"


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

danterner said:


> Similarly, I'd be interested to see a translation of what Dogen said to Hurley in Japanese in the back hallway of the Temple.


Via lostpedia 


> You're lucky that I have to protect you. Otherwise I'd have cut your head off.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

BK89 said:


> I am a bit surprised there isn't more discussion regarding the Lighthouse that no one has ever seen before. The first thing I said to myself when Jack and Hurley arrive to the lighthouse is "how did they never see this thing in all the treks they have had across the island"? And immediately Jack asks the same question. I was hoping for a little more of an explanation than "I guess we just weren't looking for it Dude". I know we accept these things to go on the ride that is the story but this has me especially irritated. I guess I just didn't like how Hurley just kind of casually explains it and then is like no big deal lets move along.
> 
> Being that the cliff was close to the caves, it seems like it would be a pretty well explored area. I like how neither of them were really surprised either, like "oh yeah giant lighthouse, guess we missed it on our first five trips over here. Oh well". Hard to miss a three story tall building. I am hoping there is a better explanation coming than Hurley's one liner.
> 
> Edit - it almost seems out of character for Hurley to just say I guess we werent looking for it. That seems more like a Locke comment. I would have thought Hurley would be the one freaking out, saying "Holy crap dude, where the hell did that thing come from? How did I never see this before?"


Yeah, all true. But I think that Hurley's line was just the writers' way of saying "move along, nothing to see here".

But yeah a huge tower on the top of a cliff (right?). And they'd had views of the island from the hydra island as well, and from a helicopter, although I guess it could have been on another side of the island from those.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> A theory I read elsewhere suggested that Juliet was the one that shot Claire when they were in the canoes, and that the bullet wound Claire received was from this and not from the Others as she thinks, and that the oar that Jin used to stand up in the tent is a clue to this connection.


I like this. I noticed Jin using the oar but I forgot about the canoe shoot-out during the flashes.

She had a few interesting things in her hut, but the pink number '1' foamy floor tile thing caught my eye. Seems really random for the island. screen cap link


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

whitson77 said:


> I thought it was interesting. Sorry....


No, not upset with you. Sorry, I was in a rush this morning and didn't consider how obnoxious that'd sound. That's just a pet peeve of mine - you'll be watching some youtube video that you'd otherwise enjoy, and someone has to throw their favorite song in (even if it's not even slightly relevant, or it's a distraction, etc).

The clicking sound wasn't pronounced enough for me to buy into it, but I was still following that part until the rest went blah (to me).

Again, sorry, didn't meant to come across so negative.


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## martylamb (Sep 29, 2005)

Fish Man said:


> Ben is clearly not aligned with Jacob. He wanted to be. But for some reason, Jacob never showed himself to Ben.
> 
> Ben spent most of his life clueless, and only recently, still clueless, was more-or-less duped into killing Jacob, thus helping Smokey.


I suspect that Jacob's own plan required that he be killed, and that his never appearing to Ben was his way of nudging Ben into doing it. This would also explain why he just stood there and let Ben kill him.


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

3D said:


> How about this? We're not really watching flash sideways, but flashforwards of how things will be after the characters who are still on the island finish doing whatever it is they need to do this season. The bomb was just a red herring. None of the things happening in the so-called sideways are in a currently existing alternate timeline, but are in fact glimpses into what everyone's lives will ultimately be like after the on-island events of this season play out.


The off Island story is not flash sideways, flash forwards, or and alternate universe. They are flashbacks from the 2007 timeline where they have already made it back on the Island.

Eventually everyone in the 2004 flashbacks will some how end up on the island in 2007 at the time of the explosion. We are starting to see them gather and how they are connected in these flash backs. The 2004 off Island story will continue to move forward and show us how and why they all got back to the Island in 2007.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.



uncdrew said:


> I'm a little bothered by Jack smashing stuff. He saw the other names -- perhaps they had things to see in the mirror. But no, Jack's a selfish little "broken" man who gets angry and busts stuff up. :down:


I'd be like, this is the coolest thing ever, what else can I see? And then start flipping the dial all over the place.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

BK89 said:


> I am a bit surprised there isn't more discussion regarding the Lighthouse that no one has ever seen before. The first thing I said to myself when Jack and Hurley arrive to the lighthouse is "how did they never see this thing in all the treks they have had across the island"? And immediately Jack asks the same question. I was hoping for a little more of an explanation than "I guess we just weren't looking for it Dude". I know we accept these things to go on the ride that is the story but this has me especially irritated. I guess I just didn't like how Hurley just kind of casually explains it and then is like no big deal lets move along.
> 
> Being that the cliff was close to the caves, it seems like it would be a pretty well explored area. I like how neither of them were really surprised either, like "oh yeah giant lighthouse, guess we missed it on our first five trips over here. Oh well". Hard to miss a three story tall building. I am hoping there is a better explanation coming than Hurley's one liner.
> 
> Edit - it almost seems out of character for Hurley to just say I guess we werent looking for it. That seems more like a Locke comment. I would have thought Hurley would be the one freaking out, saying "Holy crap dude, where the hell did that thing come from? How did I never see this before?"


That bothered me a little too, but it also kind of reminded me of the "Dracula" episode of _Buffy_ (first ep of Season 5), where all of a sudden they come across Dracula's castle at the edge of the sleepy California suburb of Sunnydale. The only nod we get to that little surprise is this:

Riley: "I've lived in Sunnydale a couple of years now. Know what I've never noticed before?"
Giles: "A castle?"
Riley: "A big, honking castle."


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> She kept mentioning her "friend". That "friend" turned out to be Flocke/Smokey, who gave her a great big evil grin to close out the episode.


Of course they're friends. He's been helping her survive.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

One thing that has bugged me. Who were the people with the guns on the Ajira jet that crashed? They were supposed to help Jacob right? What ties them to the story?


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

MickeS said:


> What timeline that we are already familiar with would it be a continuation ("epilogue") of then, in which the marshal is alive?
> 
> Seems pretty clear to me that it's an alternate reality, and not a continuation of a previously established timeline.





Johnny Dancing said:


> The off Island story is not flash sideways, flash forwards, or and alternate universe. They are flashbacks from the 2007 timeline where they have already made it back on the Island.
> 
> Eventually everyone in the 2004 flashbacks will some how end up on the island in 2007 at the time of the explosion. We are starting to see them gather and how they are connected in these flash backs. The 2004 off Island story will continue to move forward and show us how and why they all got back to the Island in 2007.
> 
> ...


I clearly did not explain myself well enough, so let me rephrase (and I'm not saying that I think this is likely, but just another possibility). The bomb going off was a red herring and has nothing to do with what we've been seeing in what everyone refers to as the flash sideways. Rather, the event that causes a flash sideways has not even happened in the original timeline. The things that we see this season in the original timeline are what will actually lead to what we've been viewing and thinking of as the sideways. Seeing the choices that the characters make in the original timeline as the rest of the season plays out will allow us to go back and look at the "sideways" timeline to see how those decisions impacted where the characters ultimately wound up. Who got what they wanted? Again, not saying it is likely, but it's a theory, and it doesn't involve Kate being 60 years old


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Yeah, not having seen the lighthouse before was a little disturbing, simply because of the fact that it is a freaking lighthouse. However I got to thinking Jack and Hurley ended up spending what, a mere 108 days on the island originally before being rescued? And they were all pretty busy during that time. And just because they walked by the caves, we can't be too sure how close the lighthouse actually is to their original beach camp. The losties traditionally can take a 2 day hike in the span of a commercial break. I live in a small county, and have most of my life (probably much smaller than the island). There are most likely lots of structures here that I have never seen, including tall structures like windmills, etc.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

Cindy1230 said:


> I like this. I noticed Jin using the oar but I forgot about the canoe shoot-out during the flashes.
> 
> She had a few interesting things in her hut, but the pink number '1' foamy floor tile thing caught my eye. Seems really random for the island. screen cap link


I'm assuming Claire raided the medical hatch's nursery at some point in her 3 years alone on the island.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Quick, scattered thoughts:
- This episode seems to be the start of the "tightening of the noose" and it'll be a ride from here on.

- When I heard the title of this episode, I thought it would be about the Dharma station with the same name. Did not expect an actual lighthouse on the island. Although this probably answers how the Black Rock was enticed to come aboard.

- I really liked the ABC promo that bleeped out scenes from next week and basically showed only generic images while saying essentially that they regret that they can't show you clips from next week's episode.

- With Jack and his mother's discovery of Claire Littleton, I bet Jack will have some sort of a role to play in the birth of Aaron.

- Once again, parallels to Season One's episode list continues. If it continues to hold up, next week will be a Sun/Jin story, which will be great. Since Jin 2007 is now with Claire and UnLocke, we'll probably get to see more of that story unfold, most likely on their way back to the Temple.

- What I'm interested in, though, is what they'll do two weeks from now as Season One had a Charlie story. Who will be the focal character then? Someone new, perhaps, I'm guessing, like Dogen.

- Is it me or are the flash-sideways stories more positive? Yes, whatever happened, happened still applies, but our characters seem much more stable this time around. What I mean by whatever happened, happened is for example, that Jack still had to have appendicitis and Locke still had to be paralyzed despite seemingly having a better relationship with his father. Perhaps this is one of the consequences of being in a world set apart from Jacob. This, of course, begs the question: Was Jacob's intervention a hindrance or a blessing?

- With Christian missing in both 2007 and alt-2004, I'm really thinking he's more of a crucial character than we've been thinking. How? I'm not sure yet.

- Quick questions that I really want to know the answers to: Who were the shooters that shot on our Losties in their time-tripping adventure trip on the canoe - this was never answered? How does Ben and Widmore fit in all of this and what is their war with each other - this has been set up heavily and needs a pay-off? And finally, where is Desmond - this was hinted in this season's premiere episode, but I'm not sure what to make of it?


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Here's an idea out of left field. The people with guns on the Ajira flight that knew Jacob: they had Richard's job before Richard did. Jacob makes them immortal, but after a couple centuries they get tired of the job, Jacob finds a replacement and lets them go. That's how they know so much about Smokey.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, and I think that regardless of whether Jacob is the/a good guy, this episode pretty much laid to rest any doubt that not-Locke is the/a bad guy. Because the way he's playing crazy Claire (and yes, Claire is crazy; the only way they could have indicated it more strongly is by having a big flashing subtitle reading "crazy" every time she appeared on the screen) is not just bad, it's pure evil.


i don't think that validates anything at all re: good/evil. i think it's premature to assign the good and evil roles. just because claire is crazy doesn't neccessarily mean he's the bad guy.



Johnny Dancing said:


> The off Island story is not flash sideways, flash forwards, or and alternate universe. They are flashbacks from the 2007 timeline where they have already made it back on the Island.
> 
> Eventually everyone in the 2004 flashbacks will some how end up on the island in 2007 at the time of the explosion. We are starting to see them gather and how they are connected in these flash backs.  The 2004 off Island story will continue to move forward and show us how and why they all got back to the Island in 2007.


2 big holes in your theory:
if they were flashbacks, the swoosh sound that signifies the flashback is distinctly different.

if they were flashbacks, then that means the island story characters would have the off island/post bomb backgrounds... this doesn't seem to be the case. they all have clear recollections of the the events since the crash, and of the crash itself.

i don't think it's a big stretch that they've never seen the lighthouse. most of them have never seen the 4 toed statue, even to this day. it's a big island.


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

Smokey killed a bunch of people. That leans heavily toward him being the bad guy.


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

DancnDude said:


> Smokey killed a bunch of people. That leans heavily toward him being the bad guy.


true, but doesn't 100% validate it either.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

BK89 said:


> I am a bit surprised there isn't more discussion regarding the Lighthouse that no one has ever seen before. The first thing I said to myself when Jack and Hurley arrive to the lighthouse is "how did they never see this thing in all the treks they have had across the island"? And immediately Jack asks the same question. I was hoping for a little more of an explanation than "I guess we just weren't looking for it Dude". I know we accept these things to go on the ride that is the story but this has me especially irritated. I guess I just didn't like how Hurley just kind of casually explains it and then is like no big deal lets move along.
> 
> Being that the cliff was close to the caves, it seems like it would be a pretty well explored area. I like how neither of them were really surprised either, like "oh yeah giant lighthouse, guess we missed it on our first five trips over here. Oh well". Hard to miss a three story tall building. I am hoping there is a better explanation coming than Hurley's one liner.
> 
> Edit - it almost seems out of character for Hurley to just say I guess we werent looking for it. That seems more like a Locke comment. I would have thought Hurley would be the one freaking out, saying "Holy crap dude, where the hell did that thing come from? How did I never see this before?"





jeff125va said:


> Yeah, all true. But I think that Hurley's line was just the writers' way of saying "move along, nothing to see here".
> 
> But yeah a huge tower on the top of a cliff (right?). And they'd had views of the island from the hydra island as well, and from a helicopter, although I guess it could have been on another side of the island from those.





DreadPirateRob said:


> That bothered me a little too, but it also kind of reminded me of the "Dracula" episode of _Buffy_ (first ep of Season 5), where all of a sudden they come across Dracula's castle at the edge of the sleepy California suburb of Sunnydale. The only nod we get to that little surprise is this:
> 
> Riley: "I've lived in Sunnydale a couple of years now. Know what I've never noticed before?"
> Giles: "A castle?"
> Riley: "A big, honking castle."


I recently learned (it may even have been through a TCF thread - that's where I learn most of what I know) that the name for this particular writing trope is "hanging a lampshade on it" - "Lampshade Hanging is the writers' trick of dealing with any element of the story that threatens the audience's Willing Suspension Of Disbelief - whether a very implausible plot development, or a particularly blatant use of a trope - by calling attention to it... and then moving on."

Only thing is, I don't think that's what is being done here. I think it was a comment laden with import. We're supposed to take from it that literally they haven't seen the lighthouse before because they weren't looking for it before. It is yet another object manifested by the Island/Jacob. Time and time again we've seen that this series doesn't do much lampshade hanging. The things characters do and say are significant, even if the significance isn't understood at the time we first see it. Think about Hurley sitting on the beach at night with Sayid, picking up strains of Glen Miller's "Moonlight Serenade" on the radio picked up from the Arrow station, in the Second Season episode "The Long Con." Sayid says the signal could be coming from anywhere. Hurley dramatically adds "or any time... just kidding, dude." Seemed like the writers having a joke at our expense via Hurley at the time, because of the various time travel theories floated about. The writers deflated those theories with the use of that comment from Hurley. Well guess what - the show really did wind up focusing on time travel, after all. Don't be so quick to accept comments at face value, I say. The show encourages reading into them. In a normal show, I'd agree that when you see a horse in the forest it's probably just a horse. In this show, I think we're right to question if the horse is actually a manifestation of the smoke monster, or whether Charlie's guitar (as I referenced in a previous post) was provided by the Island in response to Charlie making a willing sacrifice.

There was another another similar "throwaway" line in this episode: Claire, while tending to Jinn's wounded leg, makes a comment to the effect of "infection is the most dangerous thing on this island." I don't think we're supposed to interpret her comment as being strictly limited to the danger of sepsis. The writers, through this line of dialog, are commenting on Capital-I Infection. It was a very telling comment.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

danterner said:


> I recently learned (it may even have been through a TCF thread - that's where I learn most of what I know) that the name for this particular writing trope is "hanging a lampshade on it" - "Lampshade Hanging is the writers' trick of dealing with any element of the story that threatens the audience's Willing Suspension Of Disbelief  whether a very implausible plot development, or a particularly blatant use of a trope  by calling attention to it... and then moving on."
> 
> Only thing is, I don't think that's what is being done here. I think it was a comment laden with import. We're supposed to take from it that literally they haven't seen the lighthouse before because they weren't looking for it before. It is yet another object manifested by the Island/Jacob. Time and time again we've seen that this series doesn't do much lampshade hanging. The things characters do and say are significant, even if the significance isn't understood at the time we first see it. Think about Hurley sitting on the beach at night with Sayid, picking up strains of Glen Miller's "Moonlight Serenade" on the radio picked up from the Arrow station, in the Second Season episode "The Long Con." Sayid says the signal could be coming from anywhere. Hurley dramatically adds "or any time... just kidding, dude." Seemed like the writers having a joke at our expense via Hurley at the time, because of the various time travel theories floated about. The writers deflated those theories with the use of that comment from Hurley. Well guess what - the show really did wind up focusing on time travel, after all. Don't be so quick to accept comments at face value, I say. The show encourages reading into them. In a normal show, I'd agree that when you see a horse in the forest it's probably just a horse. In this show, I think we're right to question if the horse is actually a manifestation of the smoke monster, or whether Charlie's guitar (as I referenced in a previous post) was provided by the Island in response to Charlie making a willing sacrifice.
> 
> There was another another similar "throwaway" line in this episode: Claire, while tending to Jinn's wounded leg, makes a comment to the effect of "infection is the most dangerous thing on this island." I don't think we're supposed to interpret her comment as being strictly limited to the danger of sepsis. The writers, through this line of dialog, are commenting on Capital-I Infection. It was a very telling comment.


I was sorta thinking that there was a chance it could be more than what I stated, but wasn't ready to elaborate that thought as you did. I agree that it's another possibility.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

3D, OK I see what you mean (I think ). But the facts of what we've been told so far make this impossible, unless they all will once again time/dimension travel.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DancnDude said:


> Smokey killed a bunch of people. That leans heavily toward him being the bad guy.


Wasn't America the good guy in WWII. We killed a bunch of people.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> screencaps for the Lighthouse show 108 is a crossed out name; "Wallace", and that Austen is number 51 (click the pics for a better look).
> 
> 
> Hmm...


I'm thinking 108 Wallace is either Jacob or Smokie ...


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Kate is from Area 51? Kate is an Alien!


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

MickeS said:


> 3D, OK I see what you mean (I think ). But the facts of what we've been told so far make this impossible, unless they all will once again time/dimension travel.


Absolutely true.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> screencaps for the Lighthouse show 108 is a crossed out name; "Wallace", and that Austen is number 51 (click the pics for a better look).
> 
> 
> Hmm...


Just noticed that 09 is "Friendly" -- Mr. Friendly was a candidate?  I can't remember if that was a knickname viewers gave the character, or if that was the character's actual name in the show...


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> Here's an idea out of left field. The people with guns on the Ajira flight that knew Jacob: they had Richard's job before Richard did. Jacob makes them immortal, but after a couple centuries they get tired of the job, Jacob finds a replacement and lets them go. That's how they know so much about Smokey.


They lost the immortality?

Plus, if Richard is immortal, how could Smocke hurt him?


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Maybe the numbers on the wheel are not all 'candidates' but rather people that have visited the island?


----------



## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

Am I the only one that thinks once they "Answer the questions" I will still have no F'in idea what the answers mean and how everything connects? 

I almost feel they need to have a post-finale wrapup show that goes over the whole storyline and shows mini-scenes from each season and how it all relates and connects. Otherwise I am guessing it is going to go over my head.


----------



## UTV2TiVo (Feb 2, 2005)

When Hurly and Jack first walked into the lighthouse and saw the wheel/numbers, my first thought was "I wonder if Widmore is 108?" because Jacob said it was someone who is trying to find the island and we know Widmore has been trying to find the island ever since he was tricked by Ben into leaving.

But I guess that theory is thrown out the window if 108 showed Wallace.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

NatasNJ said:


> Am I the only one that thinks once they "Answer the questions" I will still have no F'in idea what the answers mean and how everything connects?
> 
> I almost feel they need to have a post-finale wrapup show that goes over the whole storyline and shows mini-scenes from each season and how it all relates and connects. Otherwise I am guessing it is going to go over my head.


Probably so. And I think TPTB have stated they will not be discussing the show in any way, shape or form. So it will be up to us to fill in the blanks. We'll be talking about this show for the next 30 years.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> I still can't figure out Richard. For as ageless (immortal?) as he appears to be, he seems to be almost as clueless as to what's actually going on as Ben, Real-Locke (before he died), or anybody else.


One thing about Ricardus, he was frightened by Fake Locke.
The question is why?



BK89 said:


> Edit - it almost seems out of character for Hurley to just say I guess we werent looking for it. That seems more like a Locke comment. I would have thought Hurley would be the one freaking out, saying "Holy crap dude, where the hell did that thing come from? How did I never see this before?"


I think that fact that Jacob told him where to find it blunted his surprise.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

jking said:


> I think TPTB have stated they will not be discussing the show in any way, shape or form.


Really? I'm disappointed to hear that. I hope they change their minds, eventually.


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Maybe Ben did die as a boy, the water healed him, but he was infected. But for some reason the temple others didn't know. Maybe Ben does know he's affiliiated with smokey and was acting on smokies behalf when he was telling real locke how special he was.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

DancnDude said:


> Smokey killed a bunch of people. That leans heavily toward him being the bad guy.


How many people died whilst being brought to the island by Jacob via plane crash, shipwreck, etc.?
How many people have suffered by Jacob's unseen hand? So far, the alternate Losties would have apparently led happier existences without Jacob's interference.
Perhaps by trying to kill Jacob and his followers, MiB is trying to end the pain & suffering caused by Jacobs game playing.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> Claire said that it was a good thing that Kate didn't really have Aaron, because her friend would kill her. (Kate)


I thought she said _she'd_ kill Kate, not that her friend would kill Kate.


NatasNJ said:


> Am I the only one that thinks once they "Answer the questions" I will still have no F'in idea what the answers mean and how everything connects?
> 
> I almost feel they need to have a post-finale wrapup show that goes over the whole storyline and shows mini-scenes from each season and how it all relates and connects. Otherwise I am guessing it is going to go over my head.


Even if the showrunners don't do something like that, you can bet that others will and you'll be able to find them on YouTube, just like you can find all kinds of cool summaries and chronological compilations right now.


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Queue said:


> Maybe Ben did die as a boy, the water healed him, but he was infected. But for some reason the temple others didn't know. Maybe Ben does know he's affiliiated with smokey and was acting on smokies behalf when he was telling real locke how special he was.


And this is how Ben was able to summon smoke!


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

danterner said:


> Walt wanted Michael to look for Vincent, but it was raining. Michael said he would look when the rain stopped, and the rain stopped.
> . That's the "magic box" that brought Locke's father to the island. .


These are 2 of the things that I can't see being explained. Also what about the whole thing of babies dying on the island?

I like the idea of only seeing the lighthouse if you are looking for it. Also Jacob's cabin was kind of like that. It seemed to move or disappear.



goMO said:


> If Ben isn't/wasn't aligned with Jacob, why did Richard take him and "heal" him when he was a boy? Doesn't Richard work on Jacob's behalf?


I think Jacob had the same plan in mind for Ben that UnLocke did. For some reason Jacob wanted him to kill him or knew it had to happen. Kind of like Christ putting up with Judas all that time when he knew what he would do.



Fish Man said:


> The alternate timeline we're seeing back on the mainland is what the world would be like if the island were destroyed in 1977.
> 
> In 1977, the main cast of Losties who we are following on the mainland, either weren't born yet or were children.
> 
> In a "reality" where the island was destroyed in 1977, there are ramifications, large and small, for everyone on earth, including our familiar Losties.


I think the biggest question for the Losties is whether or not Jacob is still around. He obviously made big changes in their lives. Is he gone with the island? 

Someone might not remember having surgery at age 7, but the scar has been with him ever since. He acted like he never saw it before.

What's with all these piano prodigies? The other kid we saw who was unusually talented was Faraday as a child. Does this connect somehow? Is Faraday related to either Jack's son or Dogen's son?

It's good to know that Kate does have a numnber--is a candidate. So Unlocke can't kill her. Does that extend to Claire? Cause she's going to walk into Claire's camp any minute and tell her she has Aaron, and she and Jin will both be in trouble since he lied about it. So why did Jack let her go with only a little warning? Does he not really believe Claire is dangerous?

Is the something bad coming to the temple Claire, or something worse?

Probably a crazy thought, but when they showed the mirrors I wondered if Jacob could walk "into" them to visit his candidates in the real world.


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Shakhari said:


> I'm thinking 108 Wallace is either Jacob or Smokie ...


Maybe had Jack turned to 108, he would have seen Jacob. But in due time, I guess.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Does the arrangement of the candidates in a circle, with a different one at each degree, mean there were, are, and have always been only 360 candidates? Or can spots on the circle be swapped out?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> These are 2 of the things that I can't see being explained. Also what about the whole thing of babies dying on the island?


The magic box was explained...it's a metaphor. (Locke couldn't grasp the concept, much to Ben's annoyance.) Walt's powers were a subplot that got truncated when the actor had a massive growth-spurt that grew him right out of the show. And the babies dying is no doubt a consequence of the Event; there is no evidence of a problem earlier.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Someone might not remember having surgery at age 7, but the scar has been with him ever since. He acted like he never saw it before.


I'm pretty sure the reason Jack can't remember having surgery at age 7 was because the consciousness in his body during the flash-sideways didn't have surgery at age 7. What we're seeing now as the flash-sideways will turn out to be the "happy ending" that each of our characters experiences once their work on the Island is complete and the original timeline gets reset. The Jack in the flash-sideways is the continuation of the Jack that was on the Island, but he simply doesn't have the memories of the Island and his life is different based on how it should have been without Jacob's manipulation.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Haven't seen this posted in a while...


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Maybe the numbers on the wheel are not all 'candidates' but rather people that have visited the island?


Or both?

But 108 candidates does seem crazy high.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

NatasNJ said:


> Am I the only one that thinks once they "Answer the questions" I will still have no F'in idea what the answers mean and how everything connects?
> 
> I almost feel they need to have a post-finale wrapup show that goes over the whole storyline and shows mini-scenes from each season and how it all relates and connects. Otherwise I am guessing it is going to go over my head.


I highly welcome your idea.

I'm so LOST.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

UTV2TiVo said:


> When Hurly and Jack first walked into the lighthouse and saw the wheel/numbers, my first thought was "I wonder if Widmore is 108?" because Jacob said it was someone who is trying to find the island and we know Widmore has been trying to find the island ever since he was tricked by Ben into leaving.
> 
> But I guess that theory is thrown out the window if 108 showed Wallace.


I thought Widmore immediately too, and am positive we haven't seen the last of him.

And I could see Widmore having some aliases. Perhaps he is Wallace.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

danterner said:


> Really? I'm disappointed to hear that. I hope they change their minds, eventually.


I think the $$$ will change their minds. Once network execs know (like they don't already, right) that they can extend their reign by having follow-up shows, I think the all-mighty cash wins out.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The magic box was explained...it's a metaphor. (Locke couldn't grasp the concept, much to Ben's annoyance.) Walt's powers were a subplot that got truncated when the actor had a massive growth-spurt that grew him right out of the show. And the babies dying is no doubt a consequence of the Event; there is no evidence of a problem earlier.


was that it? they killed the Walt storyline because the actor grew? Sheesh. There was so much that they built into the mystification of the character... that's just annoying.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

milo99 said:


> was that it? they killed the Walt storyline because the actor grew? Sheesh. There was so much that they built into the mystification of the character... that's just annoying.


Yeah, that was it. And yes, it was annoying, but, what do you do... they hadn't come up with the time travel angle by then, which otherwise would have been perfect in order to fit him into.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> The alternate timeline we're seeing back on the mainland is what the world would be like if the island were destroyed in 1977.
> 
> In 1977, the main cast of Losties who we are following on the mainland, either weren't born yet or were children.
> 
> ...


I'm still not convinced that we KNOW that the split/divergence happened at the time of the Incident.. It might be, it's likely it is, but we don't _know_ that yet. All we know is that after the Dharma villiage was built, the island went underwater.

I don't remember when Dharma moved onto the island (or if we know).. were the Dharma buildings there in the 50s? I'm guessing no. Probably 70s at earliest. But for all we know, the island sank in August of 2004. I doubt it, but we don't know.

That said, I do like the realization that the numbers were (originally?) heard in 1988 and the tower might now have been underwater then. But then again, radio waves don't exactly travel the same way around the island..


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Johnny Dancing said:


> I'd be like, this is the coolest thing ever, what else can I see? And then start flipping the dial all over the place.


+1

When Jack started smashing those mirrors, I think I even muttered out loud, "Sheesh! What an ******!" Although the second syllable of the word I muttered might not have been "hat".


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## BluesFools (Apr 5, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> screencaps for the Lighthouse show 108 is a crossed out name; "Wallace", and that Austen is number 51 (click the pics for a better look).
> 
> 
> Hmm...


Apparently candidate #106 was J Michael Straczynski (or one of his relatives). Another Babylon 5 connection!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Fish Man said:


> The alternate timeline we're seeing back on the mainland is what the world would be like if the island were destroyed in 1977.


But we don't really know if the Island was destroyed in 1977.

All we know is that the Island still exists in 2004 in the OTL (Original Time Line), and that it is at the bottom of the ocean in the LA-X timeline (XTL?).

It could have sunk at any point between 1977 and 2007. In fact, I wouldn't at all be surprised if some even in OTL will cause the Island to sink in XTL.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

wprager said:


> It could have sunk at any point between 1977 and 2007. In fact, I wouldn't at all be surprised if some even in OTL will cause the Island to sink in XTL.


Nit pick: It sunk some time before 9/22/2004. Also, it could have sunk before 1977. I just has to have sunk some time after Dharma built their village.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

NatasNJ said:


> Am I the only one that thinks once they "Answer the questions" I will still have no F'in idea what the answers mean and how everything connects?
> 
> I almost feel they need to have a post-finale wrapup show that goes over the whole storyline and shows mini-scenes from each season and how it all relates and connects. Otherwise I am guessing it is going to go over my head.


I love this idea. Maybe if not in RL maybe on the final season dvd. Or if they are are really smart $$$ on a seperate dvd so they can make more $$$


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## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

MikeMar said:


> Anyone else expect David to reply to Jack when asked what he was listening to and say "drive shaft" ??


Yes.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Did everyone with a flashback get a number? Maybe we were like Jacob, watching the flashbacks in the lighthouse.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I think the $$$ will change their minds. Once network execs know (like they don't already, right) that they can extend their reign by having follow-up shows, I think the all-mighty cash wins out.


Any followups will come from ABC (who owns the rights) and not from CC or DL. They have already said once the finale airs, they are done. Absolutely flat out done. That they will never make anything LOST related again. And in the next breath they said that ABC owns the rights to LOST and could do what they want, but they wouldn't be part of it.

Will they (kinda) relent and perhaps make a "Making of..." or something like that? Mebbe. But I doubt it.


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## jhowell (Sep 19, 2006)

Now that we know that the number assigned to each candidate corresponds to a compass heading of the lighthouse, one question that came to mind for me is who is choosing the candidates? If Jacob is choosing them then I suppose Jacob assigned each one a compass heading and then somehow tuned the lighthouse to them. But perhaps the island itself chooses the candidates and Jacob used the lighthouse to find out who the candidates were and wrote the names in based on who it showed him.

I agree with those who think that Jacob may be good for the island, but not for the people on it. He seems to have standing orders for his followers killing everyone they come across. To me he seems all the more evil by acting nice and letting other do his dirty work.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Will they (kinda) relent and perhaps make a "Making of..." or something like that? Mebbe. But I doubt it.


I would imagine the "Making of..." has been in the works for a long time, filmed along with the series.

Greg


----------



## dagojr (Jan 9, 2004)

What did Dogen (sp?) say to hurley?


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

dagojr said:


> What did Dogen (sp?) say to hurley?


I don't have the exact translation, but on a podcast they said something like, "You're lucky I have to protect you, or I'd have cut off your head already."

Greg


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

The new Geronimo Jack's Beard podcast is up! From the blog:



> There were a few very minor things we mentioned in the podcast that didn't exactly make it to air:
> 
> "Hey this is Brian" - There was another message on David's voicemail from a buddy name Brian about having a sleep over.
> "Apollo candy is now Apollo soda" - The drink that David takes from the fridge was called an Apollo soda in the script but became unknown as he had his hand over it. "
> Claire's peanut butter" - In the description of Claire's hovel they mention that the empty peanut butter jar from Charlie is on one of the shelves.


Also, this picture's hilarious.

Jorge with Claire's creepy baby.









http://geronimojacksbeard.blogspot.com/2010/02/episode-605-lighthouse.html

Greg


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I'm enjoying the sideways flashes, but, outside of noticing differences about their lives (Jack's appendix, Hurley's success, Locke friends with his dad), there doesn't seem to be any point to them at all so far.


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

What's Jack's official age? Him being 7 in 1977 when the bomb goes off would be might be something.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I liked Hurley getting his cues from Jacob to stand up to Dogen in the hallway. Go Hurley!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dtle said:


> What's Jack's official age? Him being 7 in 1977 when the bomb goes off would be might be something.


The actor was born in 1966. I don't know that they've ever said when Jack was born, but I'm shocked that we've gone almost 7 hours without the L-SOAK kicking in with a definitive annotated answer!


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

MickeS said:


> Yeah, that was it. And yes, it was annoying, but, what do you do... they hadn't come up with the time travel angle by then, which otherwise would have been perfect in order to fit him into.


For practical reasons (the actor's growth spurt) they may have decided to drop Walt's story line, but I will be surprised (and disappointed) if the resolution of the show doesn't serve to put what was happening with him in context, in hindsight. It's too large of a loose end to just leave dangling, and I maintain that Walt's story is tied in with the larger story and so when the larger mystery is solved we'll be able to deduce an explanation for Walt even if it is not spoon-fed to us.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I'm trying to remember. In the alternate reality did they show Jack with his shirt off and having different tattoos?


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

jhowell said:


> Now that we know that the number assigned to each candidate corresponds to a compass heading of the lighthouse, one question that came to mind for me is who is choosing the candidates? If Jacob is choosing them then I suppose Jacob assigned each one a compass heading and then somehow tuned the lighthouse to them. But perhaps the island itself chooses the candidates and Jacob used the lighthouse to find out who the candidates were and wrote the names in based on who it showed him.


The candidates' numbers don't literally represent their heading in relation to the lighthouse, right? (In other words, Jack's childhood home isn't at a bearing of 23 degrees relative to the position of the lighthouse. It couldn't work that way, because the island (and therefore the lighthouse) moves. Rather, I see the number just as the frequency to which the lighthouse must be tuned in order to see that particular candidate's home/location. No matter where the island is, you would still turn the mirrors to 23 degrees to see Jack's home, right? Otherwise, are we to assume 360 candidates, one per degree, arrayed in a circle surrounding the location of the island (at least at the time the numbers initially were written?)


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

danterner said:


> The candidates' numbers don't literally represent their heading in relation to the lighthouse, right?


I don't think that's what he (or anybody else) was suggesting...


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think that's what he (or anybody else) was suggesting...


I know - I shouldn't have included the quote in my comment. I wasn't responding, just posting a thought on the same subject.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

New theory that totally contradicts some of my earlier speculation:

The reflection in the mirrors was not Jack's childhood home, but alternate timeline Jack's childhood home (i.e., it's a window into the other reality). The reason they never saw the lighthouse before is because the alternate reality didn't exist the last time they roamed the island.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I like that.

Earlier, I said that I wondered if "23 - Shepard" refers to Christian, not Jack, and that Christian was the candidate rather than Jack. Thinking more about it, I doubt that can be the case as the name was not crossed off and Christian seems to be out of contention (claimed?). However, the thought does occur to me that what the lighthouse is showing when turned to 23 is not only "Jack's childhood home" -- it's also Christian's home, too.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

danterner said:


> I like that.
> 
> Earlier, I said that I wondered if "23 - Shepard" refers to Christian, not Jack, and that Christian was the candidate rather than Jack. Thinking more about it, I doubt that can be the case as the name was not crossed off and Christian seems to be out of contention (claimed?). However, the thought does occur to me that what the lighthouse is showing when turned to 23 is not only "Jack's childhood home" -- it's also Christian's home, too.


Certainly is possible. Heck, it may even be that bloodlines come into play, and that Christian was a candidate at one time, and Jack took his place. But I think there can be no doubt at this point (or at least as little doubt as one can place in anything that happens in this show), due to Jacob's apparent interest in Jack, that Jack is the current "23-Shepherd".


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Maybe Jacob is his great great great great great great great great great grandfather!


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Isn't Jack the only remaining candidate who hasn't killed anyone? In fact, he's on quite the opposite end of the spectrum since he has healed many people on the island.

The only other one I could think of would be Sun, and it's still unclear if she is a candidate or not. I think it's been heavily implied that Jin has killed people. Also , Sun was on the beach when Jacob was killed an FakeLocke could not have cared less about her... you would think if she was a candidate, he would have talked to her then... though he did talk to her at new Otherton last year.. hmmm

Also interesting so far.. Jin and Sun are the only ones who are worse off in their flash sideways... no baby, Jin still seems to be an ass, and in trouble with the law...


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Did Jack kill the Marshall after Kate/Sawyer botched the job in one of the first episodes? My memory of some details from S1 is a little bit hazy. Also, he made the choice to let Shannon's dad die, IIRC.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> I like the idea of only seeing the lighthouse if you are looking for it. Also Jacob's cabin was kind of like that. It seemed to move or disappear.


Not only do we have, as you mention, another example of a building moving or disappearing, but the lighthouse itself is not normal, as evidenced by the magic mirror. So I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out that it is not as easily seen as it appeared to be in this episode. It's possible that Jacob was concealing its presence while he was alive in order to prevent random people from showing up and using it. In fact, destroying the mirror might have been one more motivation for sending Hurley and Jack on their quest.



danterner said:


> The candidates' numbers don't literally represent their heading in relation to the lighthouse, right? (In other words, Jack's childhood home isn't at a bearing of 23 degrees relative to the position of the lighthouse. It couldn't work that way, because the island (and therefore the lighthouse) moves. Rather, I see the number just as the frequency to which the lighthouse must be tuned in order to see that particular candidate's home/location. No matter where the island is, you would still turn the mirrors to 23 degrees to see Jack's home, right? Otherwise, are we to assume 360 candidates, one per degree, arrayed in a circle surrounding the location of the island (at least at the time the numbers initially were written?)


If the island could be pinpointed on a globe, I don't think it would make sense for each person's house to be relative to that location by his or her corresponding degree. However, I wouldn't be surprised if those numbers were somehow related to the space-time anomaly surrounding the island, and that perhaps there were some kind of wormholes leading to those locations.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

3D said:


> Did Jack kill the Marshall after Kate/Sawyer botched the job in one of the first episodes? My memory of some details from S1 is a little bit hazy. Also, he made the choice to let Shannon's dad die, IIRC.


He may have had a part in his death, but not "murder". And he did let Boone die, but again, it was to avoid further suffering.

Sawyer is a murderer (twice), Kate murdered her stepfather, Hurley ran over the guy with the car, and Jin was a mobster...


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Any followups will come from ABC (who owns the rights) and not from CC or DL. They have already said once the finale airs, they are done. Absolutely flat out done. That they will never make anything LOST related again. And in the next breath they said that ABC owns the rights to LOST and could do what they want, but they wouldn't be part of it.
> 
> Will they (kinda) relent and perhaps make a "Making of..." or something like that? Mebbe. But I doubt it.


So what would stop ABC from paying some talented people in the biz to put out the show?

99% of us (me included) watching don't know who CC or DL are or really care much.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

GDG76 said:


> He may have had a part in his death, but not "murder". And he did let Boone die, but again, it was to avoid further suffering.
> 
> Sawyer is a murderer (twice), Kate murdered her stepfather, Hurley ran over the guy with the car, and Jin was a mobster...


I was talking about Shannon's dad in the hospital, not Boone. I remember Jack essentially sacrificing Shannon's dad in order to help the girl he eventually married.

Also, did we ever see Jin actually murder anybody? I honestly don't remember, but would be kind of surprised as he went to all that trouble not to hurt the one guy while his little girl was watching (IIRC, this was the scene in Jin's flashback episode where Hurley was on TV in the background).


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

GDG76 said:


> He may have had a part in his death, but not "murder". And he did let Boone die, but again, it was to avoid further suffering.
> 
> Sawyer is a murderer (twice), Kate murdered her stepfather, Hurley ran over the guy with the car, and Jin was a mobster...


Jin was a mobster, but IIRC, most (if not all) of what we have seen in his flashbacks supports his attempts to prevent himself from becoming a murderer at the hands of his father-in-law. He was ordered on at least two occasions to go "take care of" a problem for Mr. Paik. He did so by beating up the individual and not murdering them, as he was basically ordered to do.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The actor was born in 1966. I don't know that they've ever said when Jack was born, but I'm shocked that we've gone almost 7 hours without the L-SOAK kicking in with a definitive annotated answer!


FWIW, Lostpedia shows that Sarah (Jack's ex-wife) was born in 1970. Not sure what the source is for that but assuming it's correct it suggests that Jack is probably roughly the same age. I think Jack would have to have turned 7 in 1977 or later for it to mean anything.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> So what would stop ABC from paying some talented people in the biz to put out the show?
> 
> 99% of us (me included) watching don't know who CC or DL are or really care much.


I'd strongly disagree with your 99% guess.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

GDG76 said:


> Also interesting so far.. Jin and Sun are the only ones who are worse off in their flash sideways... no baby, Jin still seems to be an ass, and in trouble with the law...


Sun wasn't pregnant yet on 9/22/04 in the original time line. She got pregnant on the island. IOW, she didn't have a baby as of 9/22/04 in either time line.


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

GDG76 said:


> Isn't Jack the only remaining candidate who hasn't killed anyone? In fact, he's on quite the opposite end of the spectrum since he has healed many people on the island.
> 
> The only other one I could think of would be Sun, and it's still unclear if she is a candidate or not. I think it's been heavily implied that Jin has killed people. Also , Sun was on the beach when Jacob was killed an FakeLocke could not have cared less about her... you would think if she was a candidate, he would have talked to her then... though he did talk to her at new Otherton last year.. hmmm
> 
> Also interesting so far.. Jin and Sun are the only ones who are worse off in their flash sideways... no baby, Jin still seems to be an ass, and in trouble with the law...


Sun shot and killed Colleen in Season 3 (I actually just watched the episode last night).


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

3D said:


> I was talking about Shannon's dad in the hospital, not Boone. I remember Jack essentially sacrificing Shannon's dad in order to help the girl he eventually married.


Yeah I'd forgotten the details surrounding that - he chose his future wife over Shannon's dad.

So what if one of the changes was that in the LA X version of history Jack chose Shannon's dad. Shannon's dad lives, she's not short on cash, she still ends up attracted to the same jerks but there's no money issue to make the jerk run off with Boon's cash, so she doesn't come on the 815 flight with Boon. Jack's future wife dies, so he ends up marrying the black haired woman referenced earlier here who brought her Dad to Jack so Jack could save him. Jack has his son David with her, but still ends up getting divorced.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

3D said:


> I was talking about Shannon's dad in the hospital, not Boone. I remember Jack essentially sacrificing Shannon's dad in order to help the girl he eventually married.


But it's still not killing somebody if you can only save one and have to choose.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But it's still not killing somebody if you can only save one and have to choose.


Exactly. Doctors have to make those kinds of choices.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Yeah I'd forgotten the details surrounding that - he chose his future wife over Shannon's dad.
> 
> So what if one of the changes was that in the LA X version of history Jack chose Shannon's dad. Shannon's dad lives, she's not short on cash, she still ends up attracted to the same jerks but there's no money issue to make the jerk run off with Boon's cash, so she doesn't come on the 815 flight with Boon. Jack's future wife dies, so he ends up marrying the black haired woman referenced earlier here who brought her Dad to Jack so Jack could save him. Jack has his son David with her, but still ends up getting divorced.


This only makes sense if that accident took place well before David was born (figure 1-2 years, or more). I think it's been established that the accident took place around 3 years before flight 815. If that's just an estimate it would have to be WAY off to allow for enough time for Jack to have had David AFTER Sarah dying instead of surviving that accident.

Obviously the accident still could have taken place, and Jack could have tried to save Adam Rutherford instead, but I sorta recall it being a fairly "easy" decision based on their conditions and chances of survival. I don't know why he'd make a different choice, but it's possible, and it could impact other things. I just think that he would have had David long before that.

In fact it seems highly likely that regardless of all that, Jack and Sarah would not have been married in the alternate timeline. At least, I can't see the circumstances being identical even if he had been split from David's mother by the time of the accident.

ETA: The timing of the accident actually is pretty well established. Shannon was 18 in that episode; she received an internship at a dance company. So Jack's dating, marriage, and divorce with Sarah all took place within that time.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> So what would stop ABC from paying some talented people in the biz to put out the show?


That's what I was saying (and perhaps I wasn't clear--I may have had an ambiguous "they"). ABC can do whatever they want. It's CC/DL who have clearly stated they are done when this season ends.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think that's what he (or anybody else) was suggesting...


The whole lighthouse/mirrors thing gave me a huge deja vu feeling of when I was originally playing Myst.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> This only makes sense if that accident took place well before David was born (figure 1-2 years, or more). I think it's been established that the accident took place around 3 years before flight 815. If that's just an estimate it would have to be WAY off to allow for enough time for Jack to have had David AFTER Sarah dying instead of surviving that accident.
> 
> Obviously the accident still could have taken place, and Jack could have tried to save Adam Rutherford instead, but I sorta recall it being a fairly "easy" decision based on their conditions and chances of survival. I don't know why he'd make a different choice, but it's possible, and it could impact other things. I just think that he would have had David long before that.
> 
> ...


yeah I didn't take age into account at all - you're right.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> So what would stop ABC from paying some talented people in the biz to put out the show?
> 
> 99% of us (me included) watching don't know who CC or DL are or really care much.


If CC and DL (Executive producers Carlton Cuse and Damon Linedlof...aka "Darlton") aren't involved, then it's not "canon," in my view. ABC could hire somebody to make up their own interpretation, but what's the point of that?


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

hefe said:


> If CC and DL (Executive producers Carlton Cuse and Damon Linedlof...aka "Darlton") aren't involved, then it's not "canon," in my view. ABC could hire somebody to make up their own interpretation, but what's the point of that?


I absolutely agree. What struck me, though, was Damon Lindelof's understanding that LOST might be re-made down the road and he can't say anything against that because he was one of the team that rebooted "Star Trek." I can't find the link now, but I'll post it once I do.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

I'm a frequent reader of Mo Ryan (The Watcher over at Chicago Tribune) and one of the commentators made an intriguing comment.

"I know everyone is laughing about the Adam and Eve meta/self reference, but no one is mentioning the more obvious meta. Freeze frame on the music in David's room. It reads PICK UP THE PACE! I don't think they're talking about the music."


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

JYoung said:


> Why did Samurai leader appear at David's recital?


I thought that was just another "oh look they are all connected on and off the island" moment. Was his son the one that told Jack that David was really good? Figured they were father and son.



Fool Me Twice said:


> I loved that part. We think we know that Jacob is the good guy and he's trying to help our castaways, and we have a lot more information than Jack to suggest that, but from Jack's perspective all these powerful groups and individuals that inhabit the Island have been using him and his friends for their own strange and secret purposes, and now he sees through the mirror that they've been meddling in their lives for years before they even got to the island. Now Hurley has been given instructions and they are both expected to follow them blindly, without being told the consequences. Jack's not in the mood to be anyone's *****. If this invisible guy Jacob wants something from Jack, he's going to have to show him the respect of meeting Jack face to face. I'm loving Jack right now.


I agree with Jack's reasoning almost always but not in the way he handles most situations. So this didn't surprise me that I got his frustration but still rolled my eyes at him smashing the mirrors. And I too think it's exactly what Jacob wanted/planned/knew would happen.



Fool Me Twice said:


> Alternate world Jack and Kate both had moments of recognition (no, not recognition, what word am I looking for?)


I think it's more deja vu with them in the alt timeline.



caslu said:


> I'm wondering if Jack smashing the mirrors wasn't exactly what Jacob wanted to happen. He knows Jack's personality and temperament, and he certainly didn't seem the least bit upset that Jack destroyed the mirrors. So, basically I think Jack is still being Jacob's *****... he just doesn't realize it yet.


This. Exactly my thoughts. 



goMO said:


> If Ben isn't/wasn't aligned with Jacob, why did Richard take him and "heal" him when he was a boy? Doesn't Richard work on Jacob's behalf?





Fish Man said:


> My take is that both Jacob and Smokey "courted" Ben, as they both courted Locke, and several other people. Perhaps all the "candidates", to various degrees.
> 
> Ben was never completely aligned. It's strange how Jacob never showed himself to Ben, as he apparently did to most/all previous leaders of the "others". Perhaps he knew, or maybe only suspected, that Ben was destined to kill him.


I hadn't thought of this but now that you say it I totally agree. I think Ben was always wavering between the two and finally caved due to FLocke's suggestions.



Turtleboy said:


> I'm trying to remember. In the alternate reality did they show Jack with his shirt off and having different tattoos?


I saw this too and thought either they were different or I just never noticed them. I'm guessing they are different.



3D said:


> New theory that totally contradicts some of my earlier speculation:
> 
> The reflection in the mirrors was not Jack's childhood home, but alternate timeline Jack's childhood home (i.e., it's a window into the other reality). The reason they never saw the lighthouse before is because the alternate reality didn't exist the last time they roamed the island.


Now this would be fantastic. Love the idea!!



3D said:


> Did Jack kill the Marshall after Kate/Sawyer botched the job in one of the first episodes? My memory of some details from S1 is a little bit hazy. Also, he made the choice to let Shannon's dad die, IIRC.


Sawyer killed him with the gun in the tent that night because nobody else had the balls to do it. I specifically remember that scene.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I wouldn't be surprised if UnLocke/Smokey was planning to use the Lighthouse in order to "go home" or get off the Island. Therefore, I believe that Jacob wanted Jack to smash the mirrors to prevent UnLocke from being able to use the Lighthouse against Jacob. However, what I don't understand is why Jacob didn't just tell Hurley to do it. If smashing the mirrors was his goal, why manipulate Jack into doing it?


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if UnLocke/Smokey was planning to use the Lighthouse in order to "go home" or get off the Island. Therefore, I believe that Jacob wanted Jack to smash the mirrors to prevent UnLocke from being able to use the Lighthouse against Jacob. However, what I don't understand is why Jacob didn't just tell Hurley to do it. If smashing the mirrors was his goal, why manipulate Jack into doing it?


To get both of them away from the temple


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if UnLocke/Smokey was planning to use the Lighthouse in order to "go home" or get off the Island. Therefore, I believe that Jacob wanted Jack to smash the mirrors to prevent UnLocke from being able to use the Lighthouse against Jacob. However, what I don't understand is why Jacob didn't just tell Hurley to do it. If smashing the mirrors was his goal, why manipulate Jack into doing it?


I think it was *exactly* like he said to Hurley -- he needed Jack to understand what his role was.

He didn't say he needed _us_ to understand; just Jack. Although, frankly, while Jack might need to sit and stare at the ocean for a while, I was OK with learning about it right then and there.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> What's with all these piano prodigies? The other kid we saw who was unusually talented was Faraday as a child. Does this connect somehow? Is Faraday related to either Jack's son or Dogen's son?


FWIW, the song David played in this episode was the same one we saw Faraday playing as a boy in "The Variable." I doubt that it means anything, since they frequently feature certain songs in multiple episodes, such as "Make Your Own Kind of Music", etc.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> I doubt that it means anything, since they frequently feature certain songs in multiple episodes, such as "Make Your Own Kind of Music", etc.


You don't think that means something?!?


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Sawyer killed him with the gun in the tent that night because nobody else had the balls to do it. I specifically remember that scene.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> But it's still not killing somebody if you can only save one and have to choose.


Well, at least I was right that my memories of the details from S1 were somewhat hazy. I vaguely remembered Jack taking part in the Marshall's death, but had the feeling that it was actually simply Sawyer who pulled the trigger. As for Shannon's dad, I don't know why, but I thought that the decision over who Jack would save was not so cut and dry. Was his future wife the one who caused the crash or something? I thought they were both in equally bad shape, he could only save one, and he chose the one who was younger, even though the accident reports indicated that it was her fault. If so, still not murder, but arguably a morally questionable choice. Of course, I also don't remember the scene being nearly long enough for me to be able to come up with all that, so I probably am getting it wrong.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

hefe said:


> If CC and DL (Executive producers Carlton Cuse and Damon Linedlof...aka "Darlton") aren't involved, then it's not "canon," in my view. ABC could hire somebody to make up their own interpretation, but what's the point of that?


Hell, I don't even enjoy watching the popup videos because they're not canon!

I'm not even going to spoiler tag this next one, because it was shown to be flat out _wrong_: in the popup video for the episode two weeks ago, when Locke was in the cave with Sawyer and asked him if he'd basically join him, Sawyer said yes and the caption poped up saying "Sawyer is Locke's first recruit".

WRONG! Claire is! And if that's not true (if it turns out that somehow Claire isn't actually a recruit), there's nothing to base that on at all from what we've seen! The popups aren't canon, so why watch them, especially when they're sometimes wrong!?

Yeah, Damon and Carlton ARE the show, and anything from anyone else is no better than our guesses here (including even JJ Abrams at this point, I'd say!)

(for that >1% of you that don't yet know the joy of listening to them, the official Lost podcast is highly recommended (even if you have to keep yourself to week-old episodes because you don't want any preview of upcoming episodes). It's extremely entertaining and interesting.

http://abc.go.com/shows/lost/podcasts

(or search on the iTunes app on your iPhone, or in iTunes on your computer). It's free.

[Edited to change Jacob's first recruit to Locke's first recruit.. fingers not typing what brain thinks to type]


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Hell, I don't even enjoy watching the popup videos because they're not canon!
> 
> I'm not even going to spoiler tag this next one, because it was shown to be flat out _wrong_: in the popup video for the episode two weeks ago, when Locke was in the cave with Sawyer and asked him if he'd basically join him, Sawyer said yes and the caption poped up saying "Sawyer is Jacob's first recruit".
> 
> ...


Isn't Claire ANTI-Jacob's recruit?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

3D said:


> Did Jack kill the Marshall after Kate/Sawyer botched the job in one of the first episodes? My memory of some details from S1 is a little bit hazy. Also, he made the choice to let Shannon's dad die, IIRC.





photoshopgrl said:


> Sawyer killed him with the gun in the tent that night because nobody else had the balls to do it. I specifically remember that scene.


But you're not remembering enough of it!

Sawyer went in and shot him. Jack screamed something like "WHAT DID YOU DO?!?!" and Sawyer said something like "what you couldn't do".. Then we hear a horrible gasp/wheeze from the tent, and Sawyer looked all nervous/scared.. Jack asked "you shot him in the chest?" and Sawyer said he was shooting at his heart, and Jack said "You missed! You perforated his lung". He said it'd now take hours of agony for the guy to slowly die.

I THINK, if I remember right, Jack then killed him to put him out of that misery. But that's the best I can remember without searching transcripts.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> But you're not remembering enough of it!
> 
> Sawyer went in and shot him. Jack screamed something like "WHAT DID YOU DO?!?!" and Sawyer said something like "what you couldn't do".. Then we hear a horrible gasp/wheeze from the tent, and Sawyer looked all nervous/scared.. Jack asked "you shot him in the chest?" and Sawyer said he was shooting at his heart, and Jack said "You missed! You perforated his lung". He said it'd now take hours of agony for the guy to slowly die.
> 
> I THINK, if I remember right, Jack then killed him to put him out of that misery. But that's the best I can remember without searching transcripts.


I had forgotten that part but your post was enough to jog my memory. You're absolutely right, Jack did go back and finish the job.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> I'd strongly disagree with your 99% guess.


Really?

In your world of viewers, perhaps it's 50%.

In all the people I know who watch LOST (work people, friends not on this forum, etc.) exactly zero know who those people are.

The average American just doesn't know who produces TV shows. The LOST viewership may be slightly above that, but it's still very low.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Isn't Claire ANTI-Jacob's recruit?


Sorry, mistake (I edited my previous post). I meant to say that it said "Sawyer is Locke's first recruit".

(but that's all from memory.. not sure what the exact words were)

I'd argue that Claire was actually Locke's first recruit.
(and by Locke in this post, I mean smokey)


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

hefe said:


> If CC and DL (Executive producers Carlton Cuse and Damon Linedlof...aka "Darlton") aren't involved, then it's not "canon," in my view. ABC could hire somebody to make up their own interpretation, but what's the point of that?


Because there are many people so hooked on LOST that they'd completely devour a show that explained things after the fact.

It's easy to get "lost" in the conversations we're having on this message board and others like it. But so many LOST watchers have no idea about the producers and as long as it says LOST in the same font and on the same channel, they'll tune in.

Certainly not everybody, but still tons of us.

...and you might too, just to see how different it is without those producers.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

danterner said:


> Just noticed that 09 is "Friendly" -- Mr. Friendly was a candidate?  I can't remember if that was a knickname viewers gave the character, or if that was the character's actual name in the show...


I noticed this, too. He was in the credits as Mr. Friendly but was never addressed as such.



Turtleboy said:


> I'm trying to remember. In the alternate reality did they show Jack with his shirt off and having different tattoos?


I was wondering that at the time. They might do this in a later episode, because they were purposely showing him wearing an unbuttoned, long sleeve shirt. We saw his upper body, but not his arms.

Greg


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Really?
> 
> In your world of viewers, perhaps it's 50%.
> 
> ...


Lost is actually cited as an example of where a network decided to go with a show which won't appeal to everyone (and therefore didn't need to lower itself to the lowest common denominator of audience members which enjoy Budwiser commercials) because the people who DO watch buy DVDs of the show (even though they've seen it), talk about it online, etc. This show is known for that.

I'm not saying it's 50%. But you're saying 99 out of 100 people don't know who the producers of the show are. On THIS forum, that's probably demonstrably not true (we could start a poll). Overall, of people who actually WATCH Lost, I'd say there's still - for this show - at least 10% of the watching audience that know about the producers.

Hell, even fair weather fans that don't know what's going on have seen and heard them talk - they feature them in many of the recap shows specifically targetted at people who don't know what's going on!


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Lost is actually cited as an example of where a network decided to go with a show which won't appeal to everyone (and therefore didn't need to lower itself to the lowest common denominator of audience members which enjoy Budwiser commercials) because the people who DO watch buy DVDs of the show (even though they've seen it), talk about it online, etc. This show is known for that.
> 
> I'm not saying it's 50%. But you're saying 99 out of 100 people don't know who the producers of the show are. On THIS forum, that's probably demonstrably not true (we could start a poll). Overall, of people who actually WATCH Lost, I'd say there's still - for this show - at least 10% of the watching audience that know about the producers.
> 
> Hell, even fair weather fans that don't know what's going on have seen and heard them talk - they feature them in many of the recap shows specifically targetted at people who don't know what's going on!


Yeah, 99% was probably too strong.

I wonder what the percentage of podcast listeners to viewers is. Pretty clearly the podcast you reference is people who know the producers.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> But you're not remembering enough of it!
> 
> Sawyer went in and shot him. Jack screamed something like "WHAT DID YOU DO?!?!" and Sawyer said something like "what you couldn't do".. Then we hear a horrible gasp/wheeze from the tent, and Sawyer looked all nervous/scared.. Jack asked "you shot him in the chest?" and Sawyer said he was shooting at his heart, and Jack said "You missed! You perforated his lung". He said it'd now take hours of agony for the guy to slowly die.
> 
> I THINK, if I remember right, Jack then killed him to put him out of that misery. But that's the best I can remember without searching transcripts.


I guess I caved too soon. Should have stuck to my guns. Well then, it's arguably murder depending on how Jacob comes down on euthanasia


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Sorry, mistake (I edited my previous post). I meant to say that it said "Sawyer is Locke's first recruit".
> 
> (but that's all from memory.. not sure what the exact words were)
> 
> ...


Perhaps Sawyer is smokey's first recruit that was made while smokey was in the form of John Locke.

I'd imagine that smokey has centuries of recruits.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

We still also don't know what the term "recruit" actually means. If a recruit is simply a person, then yeah, Claire was on his side before Sawyer. Heck, Ben may be on his side for all we know. But if a recruit has to come from the list of active candidates, then maybe Sawyer is truly his first recruit.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Because there are many people so hooked on LOST that they'd completely devour a show that explained things after the fact.
> 
> It's easy to get "lost" in the conversations we're having on this message board and others like it. But so many LOST watchers have no idea about the producers and as long as it says LOST in the same font and on the same channel, they'll tune in.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I might. But I'd still view it with much skepticism, and it wouldn't add anything to my experience of enjoying the story of Lost. It would be a separate thing, more of a curiosity than any real value add.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

It could also simply mean that was the first time we saw not-Locke recruiting somebody on the show. Or, for that matter, the first recruit by anti-Jacob as Locke.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It could also simply mean that was the first time we saw not-Locke recruiting somebody on the show. Or, for that matter, the first recruit by anti-Jacob as Locke.


Yes, at the time, from our perspective, Sawyer was AJ's first recruit.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> But you're not remembering enough of it!
> 
> Sawyer went in and shot him. Jack screamed something like "WHAT DID YOU DO?!?!" and Sawyer said something like "what you couldn't do".. Then we hear a horrible gasp/wheeze from the tent, and Sawyer looked all nervous/scared.. Jack asked "you shot him in the chest?" and Sawyer said he was shooting at his heart, and Jack said "You missed! You perforated his lung". He said it'd now take hours of agony for the guy to slowly die.
> 
> I THINK, if I remember right, Jack then killed him to put him out of that misery. But that's the best I can remember without searching transcripts.


Here ya' go... (your remembory is amazingly accurate)


> [They hear a gun shot. Kate walks away. Sawyer comes walking out with the gun.]
> 
> JACK: What did you do?
> 
> ...


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

astrohip said:


> Here ya' go... (your remembory is amazingly accurate)


/me pats himself on the shoulder.


----------



## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> /me pats himself on the shoulder.


shouldn't that be /me pats meself?


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

milo99 said:


> shouldn't that be /me pats meself?


I believe the correct spellery is _me*ss*elf_.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> I believe the correct spellery is _me*ss*elf_.


Shouldn't that be "spellification"?


----------



## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

wprager said:


> The whole lighthouse/mirrors thing gave me a huge deja vu feeling of when I was originally playing Myst.


That is exactly how I felt!


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

This is a great article, IMHO. It's not spoilery - just does a lot of analysis of the show's themes and extrapolates where they may lead.


----------



## eMarkM (Apr 28, 2003)

So far we've seen flash-sideways briefly with all the characters in the season premiere and then Kate, Locke and finally Jack. This is how the first season started, too. So does that mean we have a Sun/Jin flash-sideways next week? Jin and Sun both appear headed for the temple, so perhaps we'll have the long awaited reunion with "someone bad" in the person of Locke Dressed Monster tagging along while seeing how they fare in the alt-universe.

After that it would be Charlie's turn, but I doubt we'll see that.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

jkeegan said:


> But you're not remembering enough of it!
> 
> Sawyer went in and shot him. Jack screamed something like "WHAT DID YOU DO?!?!" and Sawyer said something like "what you couldn't do".. Then we hear a horrible gasp/wheeze from the tent, and Sawyer looked all nervous/scared.. Jack asked "you shot him in the chest?" and Sawyer said he was shooting at his heart, and Jack said "You missed! You perforated his lung". He said it'd now take hours of agony for the guy to slowly die.
> 
> I THINK, if I remember right, Jack then killed him to put him out of that misery. But that's the best I can remember without searching transcripts.





jeff125va said:


> I had forgotten that part but your post was enough to jog my memory. You're absolutely right, Jack did go back and finish the job.





3D said:


> I guess I caved too soon. Should have stuck to my guns. Well then, it's arguably murder depending on how Jacob comes down on euthanasia


Ah crap. You're right. I had this video in my head of the look on Sawyer's face as he exited the tent after the gunshot. My memory failed on the rest.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Shouldn't that be "spellification"?


I stand correlated.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

FYI, I posted a poll asking how many people know who Darlton are. Someone spoiled the poll and gave it away on the 2nd page, unfortunately.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=443704

Greg


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gchance said:


> FYI, I posted a poll asking how many people know who Darlton are. Someone spoiled the poll and gave it away on the 2nd page, unfortunately.
> 
> Greg


But that wasn't spoiling the poll. The debate was about how many LOST viewers know who they are, so your poll question should have at least asked whether the respondent watches LOST. It doesn't do any good to ask the general population if they've ever heard of DL/CC without any reference, because that's not what the debate was about.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Alrighty then.

Greg


----------



## lodica1967 (Aug 5, 2003)

How come no one is talking about the other scenes reflected in the mirror? One looked like a white church and the other a Japanese tea house(sort of). Have we seen them before and I just missed it?


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

lodica1967 said:


> How come no one is talking about the other scenes reflected in the mirror? One looked like a white church and the other a Japanese tea house(sort of). Have we seen them before and I just missed it?


I didn't pay close enough attention, but the White Church was probably where Sawyer was when Jacob touched him (his parent's funeral) and the tea house where Jin & Sun got married.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

3D said:


> New theory that totally contradicts some of my earlier speculation:
> 
> The reflection in the mirrors was not Jack's childhood home, but alternate timeline Jack's childhood home (i.e., it's a window into the other reality). The reason they never saw the lighthouse before is because the alternate reality didn't exist the last time they roamed the island.


What the hell?

We had lunch together and didn't talk about Lost??


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> What the hell?
> 
> We had lunch together and didn't talk about Lost??


Sure you did. Don't you remember next Thursday?

(That joke never gets old.)

(OK, maybe a little.)


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> What the hell?
> 
> We had lunch together and didn't talk about Lost??


I thought about that as well. Considering that the Lost threads contain about 95% of my posts on this forum (or any forums in general for that matter), I guess that's pretty surprising.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

The "Keys to Lost" podcast is a podcast by two musicians. Part of each podcast is a "Giacchino Moment" that analyzes a piece of the score from the show. I've yet to listen to the regular podcast before (but I have subscribed), but found the three compilations of these "Giacchino Moments" on http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/keys-to-lost/id318286799, downloaded and listened to them, and liked them so much that I thought I'd pass the word. Highly recommended.

http://keystolost.blogspot.com/
http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/keys-to-lost/id318286799


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I hadn't heard about this until just now, but producer Gregg Nations says the changing picture frames in "Confirmed Dead" was simply a continuity error caused by reshoots due to the destruction of film by the airport x-ray machine (remember that?) .

http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=120380

If that's true, why did they take so freaking long to announce it? It makes me think he's lying--but, why? The alternate timeline has already been introduced--just incorporate it. Makes me wonder if Miles' alternate life is quite different, and that the difference was not anticipated by the writers way back when.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I hadn't heard about this until just now, but producer Gregg Nations says the changing picture frames in "Confirmed Dead" was simply a continuity error caused by reshoots due to the destruction of film by the airport x-ray machine (remember that?) .
> 
> http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=120380
> 
> If that's true, why did they take so freaking long to announce it? It makes me think he's lying--but, why? The alternate timeline has already been introduced--just incorporate it. Makes me wonder if Miles' alternate life is quite different, and that the difference was not anticipated by the writers way back when.


IIRC they sure focused long enough on those pictures on the wall. If they really wanted to avoid a continuity error, that seems like a strange thing to do.

Maybe they just use that excuse to dig themselves out of a plot hole.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

That doesn't really make much sense. Having never been involved in television production, I wouldn't know for sure, but would it really have been that difficult to reshoot Miles going up and down the stairs? They were using the same actor and location after all.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I hadn't heard about this until just now, but producer Gregg Nations says the changing picture frames in "Confirmed Dead" was simply a continuity error caused by reshoots due to the destruction of film by the airport x-ray machine (remember that?) .
> 
> http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=120380
> 
> If that's true, why did they take so freaking long to announce it? It makes me think he's lying--but, why? The alternate timeline has already been introduced--just incorporate it. Makes me wonder if Miles' alternate life is quite different, and that the difference was not anticipated by the writers way back when.


Unless they came back and filmed Miles' reaction to the changing frames AFTER the fact (which is possible), then that's a bunch of crap. It may have been unintentional, but they made it intentional by having the character react to it.

Greg


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

eMarkM said:


> So far we've seen flash-sideways briefly with all the characters in the season premiere and then Kate, Locke and finally Jack. This is how the first season started, too. So does that mean we have a Sun/Jin flash-sideways next week? Jin and Sun both appear headed for the temple, so perhaps we'll have the long awaited reunion with "someone bad" in the person of Locke Dressed Monster tagging along while seeing how they fare in the alt-universe.
> 
> After that it would be Charlie's turn, but I doubt we'll see that.


Could this be my very first smeeked post! I think it is! 



tewcewl said:


> Once again, parallels to Season One's episode list continues. If it continues to hold up, next week will be a Sun/Jin story, which will be great. Since Jin 2007 is now with Claire and UnLocke, we'll probably get to see more of that story unfold, most likely on their way back to the Temple.
> 
> - What I'm interested in, though, is what they'll do two weeks from now as Season One had a Charlie story. Who will be the focal character then? Someone new, perhaps, I'm guessing, like Dogen.


Unfortunately we're both wrong if you look up the synopsis for next week.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

gchance said:


> Unless they came back and filmed Miles' reaction to the changing frames AFTER the fact (which is possible), then that's a bunch of crap. It may have been unintentional, but they made it intentional by having the character react to it.
> 
> Greg


Was there even a reaction by Miles?


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> Was there even a reaction by Miles?


Miles comes down the stairs, has a few words with the woman, then looks up at the pictures. They're different, he looks down, then looks at them again. His face doesn't change, but he looks up and takes note of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdFMYuBOKsk#t=5m06s

That link takes you to the beginning of the scene, as he knocks at the door. The end of the video is where he does the double take.

Greg


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

gchance said:


> Miles comes down the stairs, has a few words with the woman, then looks up at the pictures. They're different, he looks down, then looks at them again. His face doesn't change, but he looks up and takes note of it.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdFMYuBOKsk#t=5m06s
> 
> ...


That just does NOT seem like a continuity error.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Yeah I'm so torn. When I read that text saying it was a continuity error, I became pretty damned sad because they hadn't said anything for SO LONG that I was convinced it's because it was significant. But every time I watch that, I think "screw that they could have done all of that with editing.. Hell, the 2nd view doesn't even have him turning his head - it's just a still shot, which they already had one of.. Even if they went back to reshoot, during editing they'd notice that difference - how could they not?

They deliberately focus on it, before and after.

(I'm not convinced he reacts, but frankly I don't want him to notice it.. It all just changed out beneath him).

So, my resolve is weakened, but I still claim ******** on that statement from whomever it was from that this was a continuity error. Until I hear it on the podcast from Damcar, I ain't believin it.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

MickeS said:


> That just does NOT seem like a continuity error.


I agree. If nothing else they know the fans of this show dwell on the smallest details. Hell, they trained us to do that.


----------



## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

My only thought when I re-watch that scene is he has some remorse at the last second and gives mom the money...nothing else.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

What's really weird about that sequence is how was Miles able to communicate with the dead son to find out where the money was? Every other time we see him use his 'power' he needs to be near the body...


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> What's really weird about that sequence is how was Miles able to communicate with the dead son to find out where the money was? Every other time we see him use his 'power' he needs to be near the body...


..and he seems to be talking to him.. having a conversation with him.. which is exactly what he told Hurley it's NOT like.

(and then something drops, making a sound, showing him where the money/drugs are.. what's up with that?)

THAT feels like a story that wasn't fleshed out yet, and they went another path.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

jking said:


> We still also don't know what the term "recruit" actually means. If a recruit is simply a person, then yeah, Claire was on his side before Sawyer. Heck, Ben may be on his side for all we know. But if a recruit has to come from the list of active candidates, then maybe Sawyer is truly his first recruit.


I wonder if the recruits have a specific job to do or if there's a big battle coming of your recruits against mine, (who knows what the weapons might be), or if it's just whoever gets the most recruits automatically wins? Maybe Smock really wants to take his recruits with him and go like he promised Sawyer, but where is he going?


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> I wonder if the recruits have a specific job to do or if there's a big battle coming of your recruits against mine, (who knows what the weapons might be), or if it's just whoever gets the most recruits automatically wins? Maybe Smock really wants to take his recruits with him and go like he promised Sawyer, but where is he going?


As I mention in one of my posts on last week's episode thread, I believe the candidates have a control over the island's power that they are not aware of. If that's true, then if you control the candidates, you control the fate of the island. Jacob wants to continue pushing the button and keep the power of the island under control. He has to have the candidates (or the numbers) to do that. MiB knows as long as Jacob has the numbers, he will continue to push the button, and MiB will stay trapped on the island. Cause apparently it's a two man job.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Alfer said:


> My only thought when I re-watch that scene is he has some remorse at the last second and gives mom the money...nothing else.


Me too. I think that was just a "wrestle with your conscience" moment he had when looking at the kid's face.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jking said:


> As I mention in one of my posts on last week's episode thread, I believe the candidates have a control over the island's power that they are not aware of...


I'm 100% in support of that as a core concept in the end that I could approve of and still feel satisfied with where the show goes.

Diane


----------



## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I hadn't heard about this until just now, but producer Gregg Nations says the changing picture frames in "Confirmed Dead" was simply a continuity error caused by reshoots due to the destruction of film by the airport x-ray machine (remember that?) .
> 
> http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=120380
> 
> If that's true, why did they take so freaking long to announce it? It makes me think he's lying--but, why? The alternate timeline has already been introduced--just incorporate it. Makes me wonder if Miles' alternate life is quite different, and that the difference was not anticipated by the writers way back when.


I think he's lying too. Isn't he the same producer that was trying to make a game out of the date on the sonogram? And said that it *wasn't* a prop error?

Darlton clarified that it was a prop error on this week's podcast. So, personally, I don't believe a word of it.


----------



## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

Alpinemaps said:


> I think he's lying too. Isn't he the same producer that was trying to make a game out of the date on the sonogram? And said that it *wasn't* a prop error?
> 
> Darlton clarified that it was a prop error on this week's podcast. So, personally, I don't believe a word of it.


No, he said


> Ah, it's a little combination of both. Two numbers are correct, and one number is a mistake. Can you guess which is which?


Fact is you guys can believe whatever you want about the picture frames, because it will most likely never be referenced again. Especially since it was a prop error caused by reshoots.


----------



## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

nrrhgreg said:


> No, he said
> Fact is you guys can believe whatever you want about the picture frames, because it will most likely never be referenced again. Especially since it was a prop error caused by reshoots.


Okay, thanks for setting me straight.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

3D said:


> That doesn't really make much sense. Having never been involved in television production, I wouldn't know for sure, but would it really have been that difficult to reshoot Miles going up and down the stairs? They were using the same actor and location after all.


This is what makes me think that Gregg is either lying or was lied to. Now, whether the lie is being promoted to cover up a thread that they decided they didn't want to resolve or one that they are trying to keep a surprise is another question.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I wonder if the recruits have a specific job to do or if there's a big battle coming of your recruits against mine ...





jking said:


> ... I believe the candidates have a control over the island's power ...


I see it breaking down to unLocke's "recruits" vs. Jacob's "candidates".

unLocke attempts to corrupt each candidate to recruit them to his side. As with the scale with the black and white stones, the imbalance will determine the winner.

Personally, I think Kate will be there to save the day, as she is under the radar of the whole candidate backgammon game.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Since the scales we saw is now unbalanced in Locke's favor, does Jacob need way more candidates to balance the fact that he's dead? 

Jacob told Hurley that Jack needs to do something but he can't tell him what it is--he has to figure it out for himself. Do all the recruits or candidates have to figure out their job after they pick a side?


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

getreal said:


> Personally, I think Kate will be there to save the day, as she is under the radar of the whole candidate backgammon game.


If it comes down to Kate (or any one person for that matter) being the one to save the day, it will ruin the entire series for me.


----------



## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> I didn't pay close enough attention, but the White Church was probably where Sawyer was when Jacob touched him (his parent's funeral) and the tea house where Jin & Sun got married.


That's what I assumed too, but I can't figure this out.
1) Pointer near 110 degrees
2) Jack sees the asian style buildings
3) Pointer continues moving to lower numbers
4) Jack sees white church steeple
5) Jack notices his name at 23 degrees
5) Jack takes over on the chains, pointer is shown in the mid-30s.
6) Jack stops at 23 degrees & sees his house

If the pointer is moving down from 110 degrees to 23 degrees, how do we see Sawyer's White church when Ford is at 15 degrees?


----------



## calitivo (Dec 6, 2002)

Went to the Paley Center festival for Lost. Locke, Ben, Richard, Ilana, five writers, including Carlton and Damon, and the lead director. Paul Scheer was the moderator. It was interesting, but similar to every other one of those I have watched on youtube. A little much with that many writers there, especially one of the guys who wanted the spotlight too much. Hadn't heard before that Tom Sawyer island at Disney might become Lost island.

They showed a couple of minutes from this weeks episode involving Claire.


Spoiler



in the temple courtyard


They just finished shooting Episode 14 and have started 15 (of 18). The writers are jointly writing the finale this upcoming week.

Some general spoilerish things they mentioned. Nothing major.


Spoiler



We'll get to see Charlie, Bernard, Sarah (Jack's wife) and Vincent at some point again; Richard and Ilana have some sort of history


At the end they were asked for a one word spoiler and they said


Spoiler



Water


----------



## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

calitivo said:


> Hadn't heard before that Tom Sawyer island at Disney might become Lost island.


Hey, that was my idea! 



calitivo said:


> They just finished shooting Episode 14 and have started 15 (of 18). The writers are jointly writing the finale this upcoming week.
> 
> Some general spoilerish things they mentioned. Nothing major.
> 
> ...


Ha ha. Other than the obvious nod to the Brandy Bunch, that also explains why...



Spoiler



...the family (families?) of Modern Family is (are?) taking a Hawaiian vacation. The show is being shot in Maui this week..


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

3D said:


> It would not necessarily suck all the drama out of the show.


In fact, it would build it up. If the storyline goes like this:

stuff happens on the island
the Faraday experiment to reset the timeline finally succeeds
the reset timeline now plays out, since we're all going to wonder what happened as a result of the reset
and if we were to *see it in that order*, seeing the reset timeline play out would be boringly anticlimactic. You couldn't leave it out: the story wouldn't be complete without knowing what happened to our characters without their visit to the island, without knowing what the effect was of the big climax of completing the experiment and resetting the timeline. But if you showed it in that order, it'd be such a letdown. The big climax would have to happen in mid-season, and then we'd spend half a season watching its aftereffects.

The best way to *sustain* the suspense while still letting us see both the build-up to the climax of the "timeline reset event", _and_ its effects, is to show them in parallel, just like we're seeing it now.

And Lost has done that kind of thing before. We knew that there was going to be an Oceanic 6 for a long time before they actually got off the island, and it didn't ruin the suspense at all of watching how they would end up there. In fact, it created plenty of just the kinds of mysteries Lost thrives on.

But you can't argue with Rob about this. The bad thing is, if it turns out this isn't the direction they're going, Rob will conclude it's because, as he argues, _it can't be done_, even though it will only mean _that's not how they happened to choose to go_. It won't prove it couldn't be done, but he'll insist that it does prove that, and be extra unsufferable. So we all better hope that they are going this way, just because that's the only outcome that'll prove what it purports to prove.



danterner said:


> There was another another similar "throwaway" line in this episode: Claire, while tending to Jinn's wounded leg, makes a comment to the effect of "infection is the most dangerous thing on this island."


Good catch.



jkeegan said:


> They deliberately focus on [...Miles looking at the photo frames...], before and after.


Rewatching the clip, I don't see any focusing on it that isn't explicable as just Miles focusing on the picture of the person he's supposed to be contacting. I'm afraid, as much as I love the theories that have come up around this, the prop error possibility seems viable to me.


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

NatasNJ said:


> Am I the only one that thinks once they "Answer the questions" I will still have no F'in idea what the answers mean and how everything connects?
> 
> I almost feel they need to have a post-finale wrapup show that goes over the whole storyline and shows mini-scenes from each season and how it all relates and connects. Otherwise I am guessing it is going to go over my head.


Sadly, this.

I am eagerly awaiting and anticipating the finale, but at the same time I am dreading it because I am 99.9% sure I won't know what the hell actually happened.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Ausiello has a nice summary of the Paley Fest 'Lost' panel:
http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2010/02/28/lost-spoilers-paley-fest

Definitely spoilers in there (including a few not in calitivo's post).


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Alfer said:


> My only thought when I re-watch that scene is he has some remorse at the last second and gives mom the money...nothing else.


This is exactly what I was thinking. I didn't even know about this controversy until recently and now that I've seen the clip, I don't know. It's not even a different photograph--its the exact same shot, just a different amount of zoom. Miles didn't even look at the picture on the way up so I don't see how he was reacting to the difference in the end. I think he just saw the kid "looking back at him" and felt guilty, which is why he gave some money back.

I think it's totally plausible that it could be a continuity error. This show has an EXTREMELY tough job because there are so many thing based in the story that LOOK like errors but aren't, so when they make the same mistakes that every single production makes, it spins off websites and conventions based around the idea of what it means. You have to remember that it takes about 8-10 16 hours days to shoot the 42 minutes of footage we end up seeing each week. That is countless angles, takes, re-shoots, etc. Continuity errors WILL happen, even on this show. I'm shocked it doesn't happen more.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

mrdazzo7 said:


> This is exactly what I was thinking. I didn't even know about this controversy until recently and now that I've seen the clip, I don't know. It's not even a different photograph--its the exact same shot, just a different amount of zoom. Miles didn't even look at the picture on the way up so I don't see how he was reacting to the difference in the end. I think he just saw the kid "looking back at him" and felt guilty, which is why he gave some money back.
> 
> I think it's totally plausible that it could be a continuity error. This show has an EXTREMELY tough job because there are so many thing based in the story that LOOK like errors but aren't, so when they make the same mistakes that every single production makes, it spins off websites and conventions based around the idea of what it means. You have to remember that it takes about 8-10 16 hours days to shoot the 42 minutes of footage we end up seeing each week. That is countless angles, takes, re-shoots, etc. Continuity errors WILL happen, even on this show. I'm shocked it doesn't happen more.


I agree. But then why not announce that it WAS a mistake, like they've done with Rebecca Mader's age and a couple of other things, like Claire-X's sonogram? I'm betting it's a production error too, but I'm really confused as to why they didn't just announce it was a mistake instead of letting people get frothed up over it.


----------



## calitivo (Dec 6, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> I agree. But then why not announce that it WAS a mistake, like they've done with Rebecca Mader's age and a couple of other things, like Claire-X's sonogram? I'm betting it's a production error too, but I'm really confused as to why they didn't just announce it was a mistake instead of letting people get frothed up over it.


At the Paley Fest, Damon said that after they announced it was a production mistake, the props people told them that date was supposed to signify the baby's due date.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

calitivo said:


> At the Paley Fest, Damon said that after they announced it was a production mistake, the props people told them that date was supposed to signify the baby's due date.


Interesting. I worked as a "continuity director" on my friend's student film and just from that short experience I have a lot of respect for people who do it on shows like this--ESPECIALLY this show, where psycho fans will create websites around trying to figure out the mystery behind something on the wall in the background, or if a watch was on Jack's left arm in one take, and the right in another. People watch every aspect of every scene like hawks (not me, I usually only pay attention to the story) and will have screen shots and frame-by-frame video up with 10 minutes of the episode airing.

This show and in my opinion 24 have the hardest continuity jobs. This show because of how insane the fans are at spotting *everything* (some of which are actually important/on purpose), and 24 because of how hard it has to be to keep continuity in a show that spans only one day, but shoots for 9/10 months. My friend's movie took place in one night so for every take in every scene shot over the three days had to match all the others, and they were shot out-of-sequence. It got so bad I started looking for continuity errors in real life. That is when I decided I respect people who do it full time.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Now that we have flash-sidewayses and mirror image alternate "twins" for our main characters, I'm trying to see how the Gary Troup novel "Bad Twin" may tie in to all of this. I read it when it came out, but can hardly recall anything about it. Guess it wasn't so memorable. Any one else read it and care to speculate if there may be anything there? I believe TPTB were generally unhappy with the book, saying that it didn't turn out the way they had wanted.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

danterner said:


> Now that we have flash-sidewayses and mirror image alternate "twins" for our main characters, I'm trying to see how the Gary Troup novel "Bad Twin" may tie in to all of this. I read it when it came out, but can hardly recall anything about it. Guess it wasn't so memorable. Any one else read it and care to speculate if there may be anything there? I believe TPTB were generally unhappy with the book, saying that it didn't turn out the way they had wanted.


I read it, and can remember the basic premise of the book, but can't remember any details, especially not anything that would tie in with the LOST story as we now know it.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

danterner said:


> Now that we have flash-sidewayses and mirror image alternate "twins" for our main characters, I'm trying to see how the Gary Troup novel "Bad Twin" may tie in to all of this. I read it when it came out, but can hardly recall anything about it. Guess it wasn't so memorable. Any one else read it and care to speculate if there may be anything there? I believe TPTB were generally unhappy with the book, saying that it didn't turn out the way they had wanted.


I was actually thinking about this last night. I never read the book, but thought it was interesting that Flocke may turn out to be a Bad Twin.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

danterner said:


> Now that we have flash-sidewayses and mirror image alternate "twins" for our main characters, I'm trying to see how the Gary Troup novel "Bad Twin" may tie in to all of this. I read it when it came out, but can hardly recall anything about it. Guess it wasn't so memorable. Any one else read it and care to speculate if there may be anything there? I believe TPTB were generally unhappy with the book, saying that it didn't turn out the way they had wanted.


One thing I remember was that the flight attendant Cindy (who we have seen at the temple this season) was somehow important in the novel.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I remember the novel being one of the worst books I had ever read. Just terrible. I also remember Damon and Carlton making a joke long after the book had come out that they had finally gotten around to reading it and more or less made a joke about it being a nothing more than a cash generator with no canonical authority or producer input.


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I remember the novel being one of the worst books I had ever read. Just terrible.


And I thought he was supposed to be the master of quiet irony. Hate Gary Troup.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Agh! 5 minutes to Lost and I'm 50 minutes away from home!!!


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Agh! 5 minutes to Lost and I'm 50 minutes away from home!!!


You should get a TiVo.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Yeah I've been meaning to do that.


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