# Returning HR20 after one day, so glad I still have HR10-250... but....



## Leila (Apr 28, 2006)

I finally got the HR20 from BestBuy this morning. I wasn't expecting it to show
up so soon, since the BestBuy website keeps saying "in process" on my order
status page...

After an hour or so, I had it up and running. (minus the local HDs, since I'm still
using the old dish)

It was the most painful DVR experience I've ever had... or perhaps I've been
too used to the 5 DirecTivo and HD DirecTivo I currently have. I'm not going to
get into HR20 bashing... *it worked exactly as advertised, no more and no less*
It is now boxed and ready to be returned. I also called DirecTV to cancel the
new 5LNB dish install...

I'm just glad my HR10-250 is still here.... but I'm worried... how much longer
can DirecTV continue to support it?


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

I'm afraid they don't want to. My opinion though. If they are going to issue out hardware, they HAVE to support it and that means upgrades from time to time. Especially their HD TiVo's.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Thankfully, Tivo is rolling out the Series3 in 1-2 weeks and Comcast/Cox are rolling out their own HDTV Tivos in upcoming months, so you have alternatives to DirecTV.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> Thankfully, Tivo is rolling out the Series3 in 1-2 weeks and Comcast/Cox are rolling out their own HDTV Tivos in upcoming months, so you have alternatives to DirecTV.


Comcast will NEVER be an alternative to me, had them in Cali, never again, and their current DVR isn't that nice, I can't stand using it when I go to visit family.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

I don't see how you could complete a true evaluation of the new HR20 DVR after only one hour. You wouldn't even have any Guide Data yet to really play around with it. Also, did you give it time to download the latest software?

I was also very pre-disposed to want to hate my HR20 DVR after several years with Tivo-style interfaces. The HR20 is certainly different, but not nearly as bad as I was expecting.

Those differences are thoroughly described in the HR20 DVR Forum at http://www.dbstalk.com


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Comcast will NEVER be an alternative to me, had them in Cali, never again, and their current DVR isn't that nice, I can't stand using it when I go to visit family.


Once again, Comcast has an agreement in place to use the actual Tivo software, not the cheap imitation junk they use now. Rollout is expected in one or two markets in November/December, with the rest to follow in 1Q 2007.

Yes, that's right folks, early next year, Comcast markets with Motorola DVRs will have a newer version of the Tivo software than DirecTV.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> Once again, Comcast has an agreement in place to use the actual Tivo software, not the cheap imitation junk they use now. Rollout is expected in one or two markets in November/December, with the rest to follow in 1Q 2007.
> 
> Yes, that's right folks, early next year, Comcast markets with Motorola DVRs will have a newer version of the Tivo software than DirecTV.


TiVoor not, it'll still be Comcast costomer (dis)service.


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## rrr22777 (Jul 31, 2002)

litzdog911 said:


> I don't see how you could complete a true evaluation of the new HR20 DVR after only one hour. You wouldn't even have any Guide Data yet to really play around with it. Also, did you give it time to download the latest software?
> 
> I was also very pre-disposed to want to hate my HR20 DVR after several years with Tivo-style interfaces. The HR20 is certainly different, but not nearly as bad as I was expecting.
> 
> Those differences are thoroughly described in the HR20 DVR Forum at http://www.dbstalk.com


Ask anyone how they felt after using the Tivo for 5 minutes the very first time and you have your answer.


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## Anopro (Jul 16, 2004)

I felt the same way when my UTV unit died last year, after 5 min with the TIVO interface wanted to send it back, but had no other option so count your blessings that TIVO is still a choice for now.


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## talbain (Jul 31, 2002)

i'm not real clear on what you were looking for from the hr20. you said it worked exactly as advertised, yet you're returning it. this doesn't make much sense...what the hell did you buy it for in the first place?


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## rrr22777 (Jul 31, 2002)

talbain said:


> i'm not real clear on what you were looking for from the hr20. you said it worked exactly as advertised, yet you're returning it. this doesn't make much sense...what the hell did you buy it for in the first place?


Sometimes you sing up for crap becuase that is the only option..(NFL & Tivo) like signing up for Directv.


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## Dan the TiVo Man (Dec 16, 2001)

Leila said:


> it worked exactly as advertised, no more and no less[/b]
> It is now boxed and ready to be returned. I also called DirecTV to cancel the
> new 5LNB dish install...


Huh?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

rrr22777 said:


> Ask anyone how they felt after using the Tivo for 5 minutes the very first time and you have your answer.


Talk to my neighboor.... He couldn't stand his TiVo the first weekend he had it.
I had to sit with him for about an hour to show him how to use all the features.

So in his case, he gave it an entire weekend.. and if it wasn't for me telling him NOT to throw it out the window like he wanted to...... He would not have 3 of them today.

I'll say it again:
If you are used to the TiVo interface... You are going to have a real hard time getting use to the DVR+ GUI


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## willardcpa (Feb 23, 2001)

'course everybody knows only a DTV shill would do that!   




Or, of course, a very good friend.


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## Flynn (Aug 18, 2006)

OK, checked with installer yesterday, they verified HR10-250. Today? They brought out the HR20-700, even though I called retention and they said 'Whaaa? You're not in LA'.

I'm in Portland, OR.

So I whined and they're supposedly sending me a HR10-250 to swap the HR20 out. We'll see....


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## rrr22777 (Jul 31, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Talk to my neighboor.... He couldn't stand his TiVo the first weekend he had it.
> I had to sit with him for about an hour to show him how to use all the features.
> 
> So in his case, he gave it an entire weekend.. and if it wasn't for me telling him NOT to throw it out the window like he wanted to...... He would not have 3 of them today.
> ...


I respect what you are saying but debating whether the Tivo interface is better compared to anything else out there is a tough. Like the ipod - most people who use the Tivo get hooked and while they can find some things to complain (folders) - they know that there is nothing else that comes even close.


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## Brewer4 (May 6, 2004)

Its strange to be one of the first folks to get this unit, see it works as it was described for only an hour and tested by Earl, then box it up and send it back. Why in the world would you do this? I get that its not a Tivo and opinions may be around its not as good but I just cant imagine doing this. I am getting one next week but I have my expectations. Its not gonna replace my Tivos and I have a pretty good idea how its gonna work (have H20 and the reviews) but I am gonna give it more than an hour. And I dont expect it to work like the Tivo. It just needs to work like a DVR.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Leila said:


> ...
> 
> I'm just glad my HR10-250 is still here.... but I'm worried... how much longer
> can DirecTV continue to support it?


They extended a service agreement (DTV and Tivo) that extends into 2010. That would at least _imply_ that the HR10 would be supported until then.

BTW, I don't find anything frivilous or wrong about someone being so underwhelmed by a hands-on with a new product that they box it up and take it back after an hour. Maybe that's not a fair test drive, but then maybe it is. I think only the person directly involved with that experience is in a position to pass judgment. You're certainly within your rights, either way. I see that more as a testament to the Tivo UI than questionable behavior. Just my 2c, but I would just brush off the negative comments.


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## Archangel00 (Aug 25, 2006)

TyroneShoes said:


> They extended a service agreement (DTV and Tivo) that extends into 2010. That would at least _imply_ that the HR10 would be supported until then.


The implication is for TiVo support in general and not so much only for the HR10. Seriously, when most if not all additions of new HD content is to be mpeg4 only, coupled with the inevitable conversion of the pitiful handful of current channels, what good is the HR10 really going to be?

I love my HR10 as much as anyone here, but sadly it's days are truly numbered. That is if you really wish to be able to receive any future HD programming additions from DirecTV as most of us surely do.


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

talbain said:


> i'm not real clear on what you were looking for from the hr20. you said it worked exactly as advertised, yet you're returning it. this doesn't make much sense...what the hell did you buy it for in the first place?


I was wondering that too. If you have 5 DIRECTIVOs and 1 HD DIRECTIVO why did you even bother getting the HR20 ?

It sure seems like you bought it just so you could hook it up for an hour and then ***** about how sh*tty it is.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

Archangel00 said:


> The implication is for TiVo support in general and not so much only for the HR10.


That statement does not make any sense to me at all. The HR10-250 is a TiVo.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

I too don't see anything wrong with this. Actually the longer I hold on to something the more I'll start to feel obligated to put up with whatever shortcomings I perceive exist. 

Life is short. Yes, OK, the UI might be different. But really, a properly constructed consumer device should be masterable in an hour. Earl, I hear what you're saying, but really, an entire weekend to get the hang of a Tivo? Really? My family was moving full steam ahead in fifteen minutes.

The iPod comparison someone else made is valid, because the iPod continues to sell in large volume despite a price premium. Now, I'm not an Apple fanatic; I don't own a Mac and don't worship Jobs. A few years ago I bought an Archos 20gb MP3 player as it was significantly cheaper than others, and seemed to work fine.

Then last year I finally tried an iPod. Within 15 minutes I was wondering how I ever used the Archos. Seriously, it makes me wonder if other companies ever bother to have UIs tested by, you know, non-engineers. The iPod UI behaves exactly the way one expects it to, and frankly, so does the Tivo's. It wouldn't take me two weeks to analyze some other UI if it didn't "click" right away.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

rminsk said:


> That statement does not make any sense to me at all. The HR10-250 is a TiVo.


It makes plenty of sense. There is the set { DirecTivos } and then there is the set { HR10-250 }. { HR10-250 } is a subset of { DirecTivos }. So, "DirecTivos in general" means all DirecTivos, including but not limited to the HR10-250.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Archangel00 said:


> The implication is for TiVo support in general and not so much only for the HR10. Seriously, when most if not all additions of new HD content is to be mpeg4 only, coupled with the inevitable conversion of the pitiful handful of current channels, what good is the HR10 really going to be?


OTA, baby. OTA. It's significantly superior to the stuff coming down from the sat anyway.


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## Archangel00 (Aug 25, 2006)

cheer said:


> OTA, baby. OTA. It's significantly superior to the stuff coming down from the sat anyway.


Yeah that is a good point.

Although in my specific case, as in the case of being on the fringe of every OTA network, I'm hoping the reportedly vastly superior ATSC tuner of HR20 is going to be one thing to help cushion the blow of inevitably having to make the transition to the new box.

My previous statement also makes perfect sense in the fact that WAAAY before 2010 we by god better have a HELLUVA lot more HD channels to need a MPEG4 capable HD DVR. LOL


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

It only took me an hour tops to find out that Tivo was superior to my Dish DVR when I switched to Directv last year. I imagine I'll know enough about the HR20 within the first hour as well to know whether it's superior to the Tivo or not. Of course it really doesn't matter because for better or worse I'll be stuck with the HR20 once Directv turns off the MPEG2 feeds. If the HR20 really sucks though I'll switch to Comcast. I really hope I don't have to do that!


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## davegood (Feb 13, 2003)

My apologies for asking what is really probably a stupid question. I promise that I have read through a number of forums prior to asking this. If you feel nesc, flame away.

That being said - did I read that right - The HR10-250 from D* is made by Tivo, with the Tivo interface? 

I just had the new gigantic dish installed on monday, because I can't give up the ticket. I understand that the HR20 can record Mpeg4, and the HR10 cannot, but if the HR10 is Tivo, that is my answer, as wife would divorce me if I got rid of this.

Thanks in advance for your response.


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## Archangel00 (Aug 25, 2006)

Not made by TiVo, But yes "powered by TiVo"


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## willardcpa (Feb 23, 2001)

cheer said:


> ....But really, a properly constructed consumer device should be masterable in an hour.....


Well, guess my wife is not a "properly constructed consumer device".  
I've been trying to master her for over 37 years.


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## davegood (Feb 13, 2003)

OK, so I just have 2 other questions:

1. I am not using a OTA antenna - I get the local in non HD over the dish, and now the locals in HD (mpeg4) - other than not being able to record the mpeg4 HD locals, what is the downside to the HR10?

2. What does waiting for the series3 buy me?


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## lordbah (Apr 19, 2003)

Flynn said:


> OK, checked with installer yesterday, they verified HR10-250. Today? They brought out the HR20-700, even though I called retention and they said 'Whaaa? You're not in LA'.
> 
> I'm in Portland, OR.
> 
> So I whined and they're supposedly sending me a HR10-250 to swap the HR20 out. We'll see....


Same deal here, after repeatedly checking and being told it was specifically the model HR10-250 that would be installed - even by the installer in the driveway just before he did it! - they installed the HR20. When I pointed it out he said they didn't have any HR10-250s any more. A 90 minute phone call got DirecTv to agree to send out an HR10-250, and 6 days later it actually did arrive. I had a scare early on as it rebooted itself for no apparent reason twice within the first 15 minutes, but it has been fine since then. So, they may in fact actually send you one. Hang in there.

I had 6 days with the HR20. It hung multiple times per day. I don't even know how many recordings it missed because of that. When it was actually operating, the user interface was far inferior to TiVo. Further, they haven't turned on OTA for the HR20 yet.

Even though it's an older version of TiVo software than what I'm used to, I am happy again. (pending the continued absence of spontaneous reboots)


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## steady teddy (May 15, 2004)

Is the HR20 really that bad?  

I just ordered it online for pickup at a local BB. I have the HR10-250 and I love it but I'm trying the HR20 for two main reasons: 

1)I just bought a new Sony KDL-40XBR3 and can't get a signal via HDMI. I already knew about this issue but wasn't concerened about it till now since I was always using component. And I don't have faith that any software update will indeed fix this issue. I also have an H20 receiver and there's no problem with the HDMI feed. 

2) I want to be able to get the spot beamed RSN FSN HD channel. 

And it's better to purchase HR20 from BB instead of "upgrading"-and I use that term loosely-through D*. If I send them back my HR10-250 in exchange for the HR20, I'll probably never see my Tivo again (accoring to D*) if I decide I want to switch back. I'll take my chances on the 15% restocking fee at BB.

Judging from this thread, I may not be happy but I should be able to form my own opinion sometime later today...


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

davegood said:


> OK, so I just have 2 other questions:
> 
> 1. I am not using a OTA antenna - I get the local in non HD over the dish, and now the locals in HD (mpeg4) - other than not being able to record the mpeg4 HD locals, what is the downside to the HR10?


You won't be able to WATCH them -- at least, not through the HR10-250. You'd need a separate receiver to do that.


> 2. What does waiting for the series3 buy me?


Nothing at all -- the S3 won't work with satellite.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

> I love my HR10 as much as anyone here, but sadly it's days are truly numbered. That is if you really wish to be able to receive any future HD programming additions from DirecTV as most of us surely do.


I use my HDTivos primarily for recording OTA HD locals. I will be able to continue recording my OTA locals long after DTV switches all of the HD channels over to mpeg4. The number of days left in my HDTivos all depend on how long I can keep them alive and nothing more. I'll still be able to record non-HD channels from DTV.

I recently placed an order with beachaudio.com for the HR20-700. I have no intention of replacing my HDTivos, but rather supplementing them. Eventually, all DTV HD programming will be in mpeg4 so I'm just getting prepared for it. It all really boils down to curiosity on my part. Earl's review of the HR20 on dbstalk.com has me intrigued so I thought I'd check it out. Besides, I'm anxious to see if there's any improvement with mpeg4 vs. mpeg2. I expect there to be a significant improvement but what I really want to do is compare it with OTA broadcasts. If the picture quality is comparable and DTV beefs up their lineup then I wouldn't mind getting rid of the two huge UHF antennas on my roof.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

At this point I'm still not really considering the HR20 -- I get nearly all of my locals OTA as well. And to be honest, there are two things that keep me with D*: price, and Tivo. If I'm going to start considering non-Tivo DVRs, then I'm going to consider other alternatives as well. Cable is too $$$ but U-Verse may not be.

I'm also thisclose to building a mythtv box to take over OTA recording.


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## davegood (Feb 13, 2003)

> You won't be able to WATCH them -- at least, not through the HR10-250. You'd need a separate receiver to do that


does this mean that i would not be able to watch the regular, no HD locals via the HR10, or the HD mpeg4 ones.

As long as I can record locals off of the dish in non HD, I would be cool - please let me know, and thanks!


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

davegood said:


> does this mean that i would not be able to watch the regular, no HD locals via the HR10, or the HD mpeg4 ones.
> 
> As long as I can record locals off of the dish in non HD, I would be cool - please let me know, and thanks!


You would not be able to either watch or record the HD MPEG4 locals. Non-HD stuff (along with satellite MPEG2 HD and, of course, OTA HD) will work just fine.


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## convbcuda (Apr 21, 2004)

To this day, I would rather use the UltimateTV interface over the HR10-250. It took a while to get used to the pathetically slow HR10, but I can live with it. 

I have an HR20 on order, so for a while, I'll have both receivers at the same time. I have a hard time getting our local Fox affiliate's HD signal OTA for some reason, so I hope the HR20 will help.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

As much as I'm irritated that DirecTV has gotten rid of tivo, I agree with others. You can't get used to a DVR in one day. You need to give it at least a month...


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Adam1115 said:


> As much as I'm irritated that DirecTV has gotten rid of tivo, I agree with others. You can't get used to a DVR in one day. You need to give it at least a month...


True, but the very _first_ time I tried a TiVo, I found it very intuitive and easy to use many of the features w/o having to consult the manual. I learned how to use the basics within minutes.

It was fun....I remember how exciting it was to be able to just 'pause live TV!'

Perhaps being so used to that interface makes it more difficult to get used to something new and accept it, but in the first hour of using my first TiVo, I thought the thing was perfect.


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## thebarge (May 3, 2005)

Sir_whinealot said:


> True, but the very _first_ time I tried a TiVo, I found it very intuitive and easy to use many of the features w/o having to consult the manual. I learned how to use the basics within minutes.
> 
> It was fun....I remember how exciting it was to be able to just 'pause live TV!'
> 
> Perhaps being so used to that interface makes it more difficult to get used to something new and accept it, but in the first hour of using my first TiVo, I thought the thing was perfect.


I agree. When I first bought my Series 1 in early 2000 my wife rolled her eyes, complaining that she couldnt just "watch TV" anymore and now she'd have to deal with yet another remote control. Later that night, she was completely amazed. I didn't have to sit with her showing her exactly what buttons to use, or how to do certain things. She easily figured out the features herself in a very short period of time.

When I told her the new HR20 wasn't a Tivo and showed her screenshots of the interface, well, let's just say she wasn't happy and doesn't want to get rid of the Tivo.


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## Flynn (Aug 18, 2006)

lordbah said:


> Same deal here, after repeatedly checking and being told it was specifically the model HR10-250 that would be installed - even by the installer in the driveway just before he did it! - they installed the HR20. When I pointed it out he said they didn't have any HR10-250s any more. A 90 minute phone call got DirecTv to agree to send out an HR10-250, and 6 days later it actually did arrive. I had a scare early on as it rebooted itself for no apparent reason twice within the first 15 minutes, but it has been fine since then. So, they may in fact actually send you one. Hang in there.


Well, the installer had not activated the HR20 yet when he was keying in the receiver swap, so he was forced to key in my old GXCEBOT as the receiver I'm to return. So there stands an outside chance I'll receive a HR10-250 and be able to keep the HR20. I might as well get used to it cuz I'll want one when they enable OTA and dial up the MPEG4 content.

My first impressions of the HR20 are that it's ok, but the interface rapidly becomes tedious.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

lordbah said:


> Same deal here, after repeatedly checking and being told it was specifically the model HR10-250 that would be installed - even by the installer in the driveway just before he did it! - they installed the HR20. When I pointed it out he said they didn't have any HR10-250s any more. A 90 minute phone call got DirecTv to agree to send out an HR10-250, and 6 days later it actually did arrive. I had a scare early on as it rebooted itself for no apparent reason twice within the first 15 minutes, but it has been fine since then. So, they may in fact actually send you one. Hang in there.
> 
> I had 6 days with the HR20. It hung multiple times per day. I don't even know how many recordings it missed because of that. When it was actually operating, the user interface was far inferior to TiVo. Further, they haven't turned on OTA for the HR20 yet.
> 
> Even though it's an older version of TiVo software than what I'm used to, I am happy again. (pending the continued absence of spontaneous reboots)


Funny that your profile says you are in New York and the HR20 has only been available in L.A. until just this week you can order it from Best Buy.  National rollout is on the 13th.

Having said that the HR10-250 hasn't been made for months and when stock runs out that's it, it won't be available anymore except perhaps as a referb unit.


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## Flynn (Aug 18, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Funny that your profile says you are in New York and the HR20 has only been available in L.A. until just this week you can order it from Best Buy.  National rollout is on the 13th.
> 
> Having said that the HR10-250 hasn't been made for months and when stock runs out that's it, it won't be available anymore except perhaps as a referb unit.


There seems to be a weird disconnect between D* and the subcontractors. When I called retention yesterday about the HR20, they did NOT seem happy that I had received it. I think the install base in many areas has run out of HR10s and is jumping the gun on putting the HR20s in.

I can see why. Putting the HR20 in a service area without satellite locals in HD using a tuner that has OTA disabled? That will piss some folks off.

Also noteworthy was that the installer and two layers of mgmt above him were absolutely convinced the OTA worked on the HR20, right out of the box, despite my insistence. All the way up to the point where he reached the greyed out Antenna setup box.


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> Funny that your profile says you are in New York and the HR20 has only been available in L.A. until just this week you can order it from Best Buy.  National rollout is on the 13th.


As of this morning, they're available for pickup in BB stores all over Long Island and CT.


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## steady teddy (May 15, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> the HR20 has only been available in L.A. until just this week you can order it from Best Buy.  National rollout is on the 13th.


I was told by tech support that the rollout date is the 11th. I just picked up a HR20 today at my local BB in the northern burbs of Detroit. It was the only store in the area that had them.

The tech rep was very surprised I had once since these units are not street date ready yet.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

BestBuy has an exclusive till late next week.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

thebarge said:


> I agree. When I first bought my Series 1 in early 2000 my wife rolled her eyes, complaining that she couldnt just "watch TV" anymore and now she'd have to deal with yet another remote control. Later that night, she was completely amazed. I didn't have to sit with her showing her exactly what buttons to use, or how to do certain things. She easily figured out the features herself in a very short period of time.
> 
> When I told her the new HR20 wasn't a Tivo and showed her screenshots of the interface, well, let's just say she wasn't happy and doesn't want to get rid of the Tivo.


Not us. We were VERY used to the Echostar 501. It was a difficult transition, due to things like favorites, slow guide, breaking bad habits, not knowing how much space was free. Took us a month or two.


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## thebarge (May 3, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> Not us. We were VERY used to the Echostar 501. It was a difficult transition, due to things like favorites, slow guide, breaking bad habits, not knowing how much space was free. Took us a month or two.


Well we went from absolutely no DVR (just used a regular old DTV receiver) to a DVR, so it was a pretty easy transition.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> ...I recently placed an order...for the HR20-700. I have no intention of replacing my HDTivos, but rather supplementing them...


I was willing to entertain that idea myself, until I spent an ugly afternoon with one. It is not even sufficient to do that.



mr.unnatural said:


> ...I'm anxious to see if there's any improvement with mpeg4 vs. mpeg2. I expect there to be a significant improvement...


Why would you expect any improvement at all? MPEG4 actually is less faithful to the original digitized signal than MPEG2 is, as it discards a lot more of the original information. DTV gets about a 40% improved efficiency with it, which means they are not using the efficiency to relax their severe compression, but to make room for more channels.

MPEG4 is better in the area of transport efficiency and file size efficiency, but not in the area of PQ. The only way it could be is if the compression were less, not the same or even more severe. You could get better PQ than MPEG2 if you compressed more gently and kept the file size about the same as MPEG2, but DTV is not going to do that, apparently. That was never their intent in making this difficult transition. Bandwidth efficiency was the only reason.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> As much as I'm irritated that DirecTV has gotten rid of tivo, I agree with others. You can't get used to a DVR in one day. You need to give it at least a month...


If a DVR takes a month to get used to, it's a flop and a failure. Period. That's inexcusable and if I was an executive in charge of such a product, I'd start firing people.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

cheer said:


> If a DVR takes a month to get used to, it's a flop and a failure. Period. That's inexcusable and if I was an executive in charge of such a product, I'd start firing people.


In all honesty.... It could take you a month or so to get used to the new GUI.
After using the TiVo interface for 5 years, it did take me 3+ weeks to get as comfortable with the new GUI...

Simply because in my head and repetition of TiVo commands took a while to get use to the new remote (and where each button was), and where to get to the different areas on the new GUI

It's not like I worked 24/7 on it... maybe like ~2 hours a night at best... and that wasn't really button mashing either.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> In all honesty.... It could take you a month or so to get used to the new GUI.
> After using the TiVo interface for 5 years, it did take me 3+ weeks to get as comfortable with the new GUI...
> 
> Simply because in my head and repetition of TiVo commands took a while to get use to the new remote (and where each button was), and where to get to the different areas on the new GUI
> ...


I remember switching from the Dishplayer 7200 (ah, the days of dropping in a new HD and having the system take it from there) to DirecTivo and hating it at first. I thought after the first hour, this really sucks. I'm glad I kept with it.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

cheer said:


> If a DVR takes a month to get used to, it's a flop and a failure. Period. That's inexcusable and if I was an executive in charge of such a product, I'd start firing people.


How can you make such a blanket statement? Look, I'm not defending the HR20, I'm fairly loyal to TiVo.

But to say EVERY user should adjust easily to it, is crazy. What about an 85 year old lady that can't even remember how to use her VCR?? (I know one!!)

Various people have various levels of technical ability. Some people understand technology, some people struggle with it. Some people handle change with ease, some people HATE change.

I'm sure I could get used to the product quickly. My wife would take longer. My parents got two R15's, even though I recommended TiVo. They struggled. I insisted that they read the manual. Unfortunately the manual wasn't very good. They took the time to learn and more importantly understand how the thing works. Now they don't have MAJOR complaints. I mean, I know that the TiVo is better, but they've adjusted and are perfectly happy with their R15's.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> How can you make such a blanket statement? Look, I'm not defending the HR20, I'm fairly loyal to TiVo.
> 
> But to say EVERY user should adjust easily to it, is crazy. What about an 85 year old lady that can't even remember how to use her VCR?? (I know one!!)


Well, a VCR IMO is tougher to use than a Tivo -- I know people whose VCRs always flashed 12:00 that use a Tivo without a problem. But OK, let's qualify this.

If an average home user (not a senior citizen, not a geek, not a genius, not a moron) cannot figure out how to use the base functionality (set up a recording, do a simple search, set up a season pass) and be comfortable with the process in about an hour, it's a badly-designed product.


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## FlWingNut (Mar 4, 2005)

convbcuda said:


> To this day, I would rather use the UltimateTV interface over the HR10-250. It took a while to get used to the pathetically slow HR10, but I can live with it /QUOTE]
> 
> Amen, brother. When we first switched from UTV to the D*Tivo my first thoughts were "what a giant step backward." Where's my PIP? Where's my on-screen caller ID? Why is the damn guide so sloooww...? Where are my groups? (this was before 6.2). Why can't I watch TV while I'm doing things in the menus? What's all this cartoony stuff in the menus? Where's the "stop" button? My wife hated the interface.
> 
> ...


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

cheer said:


> Well, a VCR IMO is tougher to use than a Tivo -- I know people whose VCRs always flashed 12:00 that use a Tivo without a problem. But OK, let's qualify this.
> 
> If an average home user (not a senior citizen, not a geek, not a genius, not a moron) cannot figure out how to use the base functionality (set up a recording, do a simple search, set up a season pass) and be comfortable with the process in about an hour, it's a badly-designed product.


The flaw with that is that in one hour the guide and other info it needs to aquire just isn't in place yet, so it's not fully functional, and can appear slow and such.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Oops.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Langree said:


> The flaw with that is that in one hour the guide and other info it needs to aquire just isn't in place yet, so it's not fully functional, and can appear slow and such.


OK. Amend my previous statement to "in about an hour once there is sufficient guide data" then.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

FlWingNut said:


> ...Point is, you just can't decide in an hour that something like a DVR is a POS...Have an open mind.


It will take more than an open mind in this case. Sure, that is necessary to give something a fair tryout, but the product has to meet you half way.

And my experience yesterday with a HR20 is living proof that an hour is enough to decide if something is a POS or not.

Cheer's analogy is once again, spot on. Some companies, like Apple and Tivo, seem to have a unique ability to produce products with a really great UI.

I bought a new Mac mini yesterday as well. Along with the 8 hours I spent being frustrated by the worst PVR UI imaginable, I had the mini completely partitioned, OS customized, OS reinstalled, and set up for wireless networking and for automated daily recording of the Howard Stern Show inside an hour. It now does everything you could ask of a home computer for a price significantly less than what DTV wants to sell me an HR10 for. The HR20 can't even record "The Daily Show" without recording either each ep individually, or all 30 eps each week, including the 25 repeats. That alone, makes it a POS.

The iPod is also a really great user experience. For me to hear on my way to work the radio show I just recorded segmented into 15 minute chunks each bookmarked automatically, all I have to do is unplug it from the mini and walk out the door. The next iPod will be Bluetooth-capable, and all I'll have to do is pick it up. These people know how to provide a good user experience.

On the other hand, we bought a Toshiba DVD-R at work that is a close second to the HR20 in the user-hostile department. It didn't take an hour, it took mere minutes to see that it was a POS. I gave the HR20 a full day, but it's going back in the box tonight. These people DO NOT know how to provide a good user experience.

Bottom line, if it's a good product, the user experience will reveal that within the first hour, or maybe the first few minutes. If it isn't, a week will not reveal secrets that eventually make the UI better, or the product itself better. On the other hand, I learn new cool tricks to do with the iPod and Mac OS and iTunes smart playlisting nearly every day. They started out great and just keep getting better the more you learn.

People who never experienced the current Mac OS are happy to settle for Windows, but how ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen OS X? If I never knew Tivo, I would grudgingly accept that the HR20 was as good as it gets, and let it screw with me every day for as long as I owned it. Luckilly, I know better.

There are no products that aren't getting a fair shake here, that are really great but the greatness is hidden from view until you eventually get used to it. Things just don't work that way. It's just like speed dating. You know, by the time the buzzer goes off, if you want that phone number or not.


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## RunnerFL (May 10, 2005)

Think of it like this... You've been a Windows user for years and years and finally decide to give Linux a try. Very different GUI. Are you going to give up after an hour? A week? A month? No... 

Is it going to pay off to take the time to learn the Linux GUI over giving up and going back to Windows? Hell Yes!!!

Now why on earth would you give up on the HR20 after an hour? 

Makes no sense.


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## gb33 (Jul 23, 2005)

Leila said:


> It was the most painful DVR experience I've ever had... or perhaps I've been
> too used to the 5 DirecTivo and HD DirecTivo I currently have. I'm not going to
> get into HR20 bashing... *it worked exactly as advertised, no more and no less*
> It is now boxed and ready to be returned. I


 After my first couple of hours with it on Thurs. night I felt the EXACT same. But I got some help on boards and am getting a bit more used to it. I will still say, I am a bit bummed since I SPECIFICALLY told CSR rep I wanted 10-250 to which she said "oh yes, I lhave it and love it, it's much better than our new box in my opinion". So I plan on giving it a good go over the weekend and a fair shake. Now that some of the Tivo-like features have been found it is going a bit better for me. A bit, not leaps and bounds, but a bit. 
I will say though I have to go into using this thing with the mentality " This will not be a smooth operating enjoyment like my Dtivo, it is just a DVR." Unfortunately that is, for now, the attitude you must have. I am sure hoping for improvements along the way. But we shall see. Again, it takes patience.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

cheer said:


> OK. Amend my previous statement to "in about an hour once there is sufficient guide data" then.


Ok, that's a fair assesment since it can take at least a day or 2 to fully acquire it's data. I remember how painfully slow my dtivo was acting when I first hooked it up.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

RunnerFL said:


> Think of it like this... You've been a Windows user for years and years and finally decide to give Linux a try. Very different GUI. Are you going to give up after an hour? A week? A month? No...
> 
> Is it going to pay off to take the time to learn the Linux GUI over giving up and going back to Windows? Hell Yes!!!
> 
> ...


This is exactly what is wrong. Are you honestly telling me that the Linux GUI is superior (from a usability standpoint) to WinXP or, even more unbelievably, OS/X? Please. There are all sorts of reasons to use Linux, but the GUI ain't one of 'em.

I'm an engineer, and a techie, and all that. I use Linux a lot. It has all sorts of advantages to someone like me...but the UI is, at best, mediocre. WinXP has a much better UI, and OS/X is that much better still.

The HR20 is not -- or should not be -- a product designed for techies who will put up with a poor UI because of the under-the-hood stuff. It should be something that an AVERAGE, NON-TECHNICAL user can be comfortable with IN AN HOUR OF USE.

I had a lot more to say but TyroneShoes did it better than I would have.


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## RunnerFL (May 10, 2005)

cheer said:


> This is exactly what is wrong. Are you honestly telling me that the Linux GUI is superior (from a usability standpoint) to WinXP or, even more unbelievably, OS/X? Please. There are all sorts of reasons to use Linux, but the GUI ain't one of 'em.


Linux UI superior to XP? Yes, absolutely. KDE is SO much better than XP it's not funny. Since I've never used OS/X I cannot, and did not, compare it to Linux.



cheer said:


> I'm an engineer, and a techie, and all that. I use Linux a lot. It has all sorts of advantages to someone like me...but the UI is, at best, mediocre. WinXP has a much better UI, and OS/X is that much better still.


Sounds like the only UI you tried for Linux is Gnome or ICE. They both suck and are hard to use. KDE blows them away.



cheer said:


> The HR20 is not -- or should not be -- a product designed for techies who will put up with a poor UI because of the under-the-hood stuff. It should be something that an AVERAGE, NON-TECHNICAL user can be comfortable with IN AN HOUR OF USE.


Poor UI? I find the UI for the R15/HR20 better than TiVo. I can still watch TV while I navigate thru the menus. Also the UI isn't as "cartoonish" as TiVo. Cartoons are for kids.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Which I guess is why "The Simpsons" is going into its 16th year in prime time, with no end in sight, and a continuosly strong 18-49 demo.



RunnerFL said:


> Think of it like this... You've been a Windows user for years and years and finally decide to give Linux a try. Very different GUI. Are you going to give up after an hour? A week? A month? No...
> 
> Is it going to pay off to take the time to learn the Linux GUI over giving up and going back to Windows? Hell Yes!!!
> 
> ...


If your example held any more water than the "cartoon" analogy, I might agree. But both are bad examples. So, it still makes plenty of sense to anyone who has ever owned a Tivo.

Windows and Linux both have arcane UIs, and Linux provides significant options over Windows for some users. That makes taking the time worth it.

DRV+ is an arcane interface while Tivo is an amazingly user-friendly interface. DVR+ is not expandable and probably won't be, while Tivo is as easy to expand as a PC or Mac. Tivo is remarkably stable, while the DVR+ is an unknown quantity in that area. But then few PVRs can reach the bar Tivo has set in that area, so it would be surprising at best if it lasts like a Tivo lasts. DVR+ has a couple of tiny insignificant features that Tivo does not have, but will probably have by next month. Does that make beating one's head against the wall for a losing cause worth it?

So the example doesn't hold, because there is no payoff in this case to putting up with learning an arcane new interface. At the end of the day you're left with a PVR that is a joke compared to what you are leaving behind. I can learn everything about how to drive a Yugo, eventually, but is it worth it just so I can drive it every day while my Mercedes stays in the garage? Think of it like THAT.

Apples and oranges.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

RunnerFL said:


> Linux UI superior to XP? Yes, absolutely. KDE is SO much better than XP it's not funny. Since I've never used OS/X I cannot, and did not, compare it to Linux.


Now we need to differentiate between "better as in more powerful" and "better as in easier for a non-techie to pick up." If you think KDE is easier for a non-techie than a Mac (or even XP)...well then I don't think there's much point in continuing this conversation.

And again, it's a poor analogy anyway, as there's nothing about the NDS boxes that, under the hood, makes them so superior (MPEG4 notwithstanding).


> Poor UI? I find the UI for the R15/HR20 better than TiVo. I can still watch TV while I navigate thru the menus. Also the UI isn't as "cartoonish" as TiVo. Cartoons are for kids.


You're not even remotely talking about what I am anymore. The fact that you can still watch TV doesn't make it easier for a non-techie to use, and the "cartoonishness" doesn't make it harder.


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## Leila (Apr 28, 2006)

how many people can operate their Tivo(HD or SD) while blindefolded?

just curious....


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

cheer said:


> ...The fact that you can still watch TV doesn't make it easier for a non-techie to use...


Or, IMHO, any better. PIP in all flavors is over-rated. Besides, Tivo owners eventually stop watching live TV altogether, as a rule. They have Tivo to filter out what's worth watching FOR them, automatically. At some point it usually dawns on them that they don't NEED live TV at all. Those who still think they do need live TV, just simply haven't evolved to that point yet, and probably still just don't "get" why Tivo is as good as it is. Or, they are using something other than Tivo.

When I had DISH PVRs I had PIP, and it was more an annoyance than a "feature".

If you think of it from a user interface standpoint, when you go to the menus, most of the time the big reason you are doing that is to see what is coming up, see if a program is listed, set a one-off recording, start a SP, see why there might be a tuner conflict, etc. Rarely do people go to the menus to "watch TV". That makes about as much sense as going to the "Start" menu to "Stop" your computer, if you want to mix good metaphors about bad UIs.

Most of the time when I go to the NPL or TDL or other menus, there are two reasons: 1., I want to see what's coming up or one of the other reasons listed above, and 2., I want to, for that very moment at least, STOP WATCHING TV, or at least stop watching (and especially hearing) the now useless program that is displayed. Going to the menus just as a safety zone to figure out what I want to do next should not be accompanied by the sound (and picture) of EXACTLY WHAT I WANT TO STOP WATCHING AND HEARING. IOW, going to the menu acts both as an interface, and as a mute switch, which is the most powerful, useful button on the remote. I certainly don't want to hear the babling of the program I just decided NOT to watch. I also don't want to have 8 lines of the EPG reduced to 6 lines, just to make room for some worthless PIP that I never watch.

Just one more thing the HR20 DOES NOT do.

In a similar manner, I find myself using the "pause" button, not because I want to scrutinize a particular frame of video, but because I really want to stop the intrusive and unnecessary (at that moment) audio. IOW it also serves as a handy mute switch. To make a good UI, you have to examine how people want to use the tools you give them, and to not arrogantly assume that what might on the surface have the glimmer of being a good idea, actually is. More often than not these days it seems like new features are not really improvements. Just because you CAN do something doesn't make it a good idea. A good UI empowers people. A bad UI limits what the user can do, sometimes ironically by adding "new and better" features.

Sometimes adding a new feature can be a very bad idea, because it undoes how people use other features. Adding a PIP that can't allow going to the menus to double as a mute function is a perfect example of that. For another example, DISH divided their rudimentary search feature into two sections, in order to make it target stuff "better". The end result was you had to search twice, once in each mode, to make sure you found all instances. Google, it wasn't.

My suspicion is that while they certainly _could_ have included it in the UI, Tivo does NOT have PIP, COMPLETELY ON PURPOSE. Just like it doesn't have a capacity meter, completely on purpose. Both just get in the way, and both are mostly unnecessary.

(edited for better clarity)


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## FlWingNut (Mar 4, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> Or, IMHO, any better. PIP in all flavors is over-rated. Besides, Tivo owners eventually stop watching live TV altogether, as a rule. They have Tivo to filter out what's worth watching FOR them, automatically. At some point it usually dawns on them that they don't NEED live TV at all. Those who still think they do need live TV, just simply haven't evolved to that point yet, and probably still just don't "get" why Tivo is as good as it is. Or, they are using something other than Tivo.
> 
> When I had DISH PVRs I had PIP, and it was more an annoyance than a "feature".
> 
> ...


Sorry, I have to completely disagree. Picture-in-guide is very useful and a serious shortcoming on the D*Tivos. I'm getting a little weary of the Tivo-snobs with their "you're never supposed to watch live tv anyway" mantra. Yes, I watch all my favorite shows, and sports from the NPL, but there are times (particularly during the summer) when there's nothing much in my NPL -- all the season passes are on hiatus. There are times I want to watch SOME tv but I don't want to invest in any of the hour- or two-hour shows I have recorded, whether it's mood or because of time constraints. Sometimes I want to check scores and highlights on ESPN news and would like to do some Tivo housecleaning, searching, checking the TDL, etc, while I'm listeing to ESPN news for the scores I want. If Tivo had Picture-in-guide (a basic feature IMHO), I could do this. I could get out of the menu and watch my highlights. Yes, I could pause ESPN news, do my housecleaning then go back and find what I want, but why should I have to do all that?

Point is, I think most of us watch live tv sometimes, and the Tivo interface has some shortcomings in that area. For some, that's OK because they "never" watch live TV. But don't dismiss those of us that do as somehow inferior TV consumers.

That said, the D*Tivo does a fantastic job of searching for, and recording the stuff I want to watch, and watching pre-recorded shows is a breeze. I own two, plus and R15, and I like features of both.

Ain't choice grand?


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Some of you Tivo fanatics crack me up. All of this talk about the UI. 99% of the time I am watching a show and not navigating the UI. From all of the truly *unbiased* reviews I've read the unit does not suck nearly as bad as the Tivo lemmings would like everyone to believe. The HD DirecTV Tivo is history. Either get over it or switch to cable. <shrug>


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

> Ain't choice grand?


'Choice' _is_ grand ...therein lies the rub; in the coming months the choice to purchase the HR10/250 will no longer exist, so folks will be forced to endure an inferior product.

Of course, there's the 'choice' to leave D* for cable or dish, but I personally prefer D*.

I'm not a "snob," or a "fanatic..." I just don't understand upgrading to a unit that has less features than the original, and necessitates my coming to forums to research how to use it.



> Some of you Tivo fanatics crack me up. All of this talk about the UI. 99% of the time I am watching a show and not navigating the UI. From all of the truly unbiased reviews I've read the unit does not suck nearly as bad as the Tivo lemmings would like everyone to believe. The HD DirecTV Tivo is history. Either get over it or switch to cable. <shrug>


Curious, can you provide a link to these unbiased reviews from people that think this unit is great? Or is it not that it's great ...just that it doesn't _suck _ all that much?


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

FlWingNut said:


> Sorry, I have to completely disagree. Picture-in-guide is very useful and a serious shortcoming on the D*Tivos. I'm getting a little weary of the Tivo-snobs with their "you're never supposed to watch live tv anyway" mantra.


That's OK; I'm a bit tired of people calling me a snob because I disagree.

You like PIP? Fine. It's a perfectly valid thing to like. I don't -- I've had it in a few different scenarios, and while I used it briefly when I first got it (mostly to show off) I quickly abandoned it. Maybe I'm getting old, but focusing on one program or activity is about all I'm prepared to do.

This still doesn't address the basic usability debate, of course. But personally I'd never trade wishlists for PIP.


> Yes, I watch all my favorite shows, and sports from the NPL, but there are times (particularly during the summer) when there's nothing much in my NPL -- all the season passes are on hiatus. There are times I want to watch SOME tv but I don't want to invest in any of the hour- or two-hour shows I have recorded, whether it's mood or because of time constraints. Sometimes I want to check scores and highlights on ESPN news and would like to do some Tivo housecleaning, searching, checking the TDL, etc, while I'm listeing to ESPN news for the scores I want. If Tivo had Picture-in-guide (a basic feature IMHO), I could do this. I could get out of the menu and watch my highlights. Yes, I could pause ESPN news, do my housecleaning then go back and find what I want, but why should I have to do all that?


Well I certainly do still watch live TV from time to time. Sometimes, like you, it's summer and I'm just looking for something to zone out on. Or news. Or sports. But I have to say...I can't imagine checking scores AND checking the to-do list or whatever at the same time.

And if I really want to, I just use TivoWebPlus.  But that's not germane.


> Point is, I think most of us watch live tv sometimes, and the Tivo interface has some shortcomings in that area. For some, that's OK because they "never" watch live TV. But don't dismiss those of us that do as somehow inferior TV consumers.


You find it a shortcoming. I do not. Please don't dismiss me as a snob just because I find PIP useless.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Mark Lopez said:


> Some of you Tivo fanatics crack me up. All of this talk about the UI. 99% of the time I am watching a show and not navigating the UI. From all of the truly *unbiased* reviews I've read the unit does not suck nearly as bad as the Tivo lemmings would like everyone to believe. The HD DirecTV Tivo is history. Either get over it or switch to cable. <shrug>


We disagree with you, therefore we are snobs and lemmings. I see.

Took a long time to complete that thorough analysis, did it?


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## RunnerFL (May 10, 2005)

cheer said:


> Now we need to differentiate between "better as in more powerful" and "better as in easier for a non-techie to pick up." If you think KDE is easier for a non-techie than a Mac (or even XP)...well then I don't think there's much point in continuing this conversation.


IMO it's better in both areas... If you can navigate the XP UI then you would have absolutely no problem with KDE.



cheer said:


> And again, it's a poor analogy anyway, as there's nothing about the NDS boxes that, under the hood, makes them so superior (MPEG4 notwithstanding).


Oh yes there is... Native Passthru being one and PIP on menus being another. These both make the NDS box superior as far as I'm concerned.



cheer said:


> You're not even remotely talking about what I am anymore. The fact that you can still watch TV doesn't make it easier for a non-techie to use, and the "cartoonishness" doesn't make it harder.


I didn't say the cartoonishness made it harder, just dumber.


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## RunnerFL (May 10, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> Or, IMHO, any better. PIP in all flavors is over-rated. Besides, Tivo owners eventually stop watching live TV altogether, as a rule.


Who said anything about the PIP only being for Live TV? When you're watching a recording and enter the menus your recording is what is being shown in the window. This alone makes the feature very valuable.

Say you think of something you meant to record while you're watching a recording and, like me, you realize you had better set it up right now before you forget again...

With the HR10 you have to stop what you're watching and setup the recording.

With the HR20 you can set up your new recording while still watching the one you were already watching.

That to me is probably the 2nd biggest reason to move to the HR20.

I am in no way bashing TiVo or the TiVo Faithful. I respect your opinon and would hope you respect mine. That being said I feel the HR20 has a better feature set than the HR10 which includes a better UI than TiVo's 3rd Grade look.


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## Leila (Apr 28, 2006)

I should add that I do think the HR20 is vastly superior to the old HR10/HDTivo.
However, that only applies to the technology aspect of it.

The way they designed the UI in the HR20 is what turned me off. I am sure I
can learn to live with the new HR20 in a few days, but I won't like it. It is missing
so many essential features that my "old" HR10 HDTivo has. 

I do not chain myself to Tivo. If a better DVR comes along, I'll jump ship faster
than anyone else... Sadly, the HR20 isn't it...


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Sir_whinealot said:


> Curious, can you provide a link to these unbiased reviews from people that think this unit is great? Or is it not that it's great ...just that it doesn't _suck _ all that much?


Umm... Have you even read *this* thread? Several people have said it's not bad at all.

Plenty of people here seem to think it's fine too. <shrug>

And given it's been out for about a month and they are doing updates would lead me to believe the bugs will be worked out much sooner than Tivo ever fixed things. I've had every flavor of Tivo since they forst rolled off the assembly line (7 years ago) and it still has bugs.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> Umm... Have you even read *this* thread? Several people have said it's not bad at all.
> 
> Plenty of people here seem to think it's fine too. <shrug>
> 
> And given it's been out for about a month and they are doing updates would lead me to believe the bugs will be worked out much sooner than Tivo ever fixed things. I've had every flavor of Tivo since they forst rolled off the assembly line (7 years ago) and it still has bugs.


Umm ....no, I skipped the entire thread and only read your post, and then responded to it. 

As far as the responses here, and the thread you linked ....kinda like exactly what I said; 'it doesn't suck too bad' seems to be the flavor of the day <shrug>.

Nobody was really talking about 'bugs' ...have you even read *this* thread?

;D


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## rickaren (Oct 30, 2002)

Mark Lopez said:


> Some of you Tivo fanatics crack me up. All of this talk about the UI. 99% of the time I am watching a show and not navigating the UI. From all of the truly *unbiased* reviews I've read the unit does not suck nearly as bad as the Tivo lemmings would like everyone to believe. The HD DirecTV Tivo is history. Either get over it or switch to cable. <shrug>


*They would really be surprised if the try DISH HD and the VIP 622 DVR. Just a fact and I have both D* and E* HD so I know. Still a big shock what D* has done (or not has done) to their HD customers this past year or so.*


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

rickaren said:


> *They would really be surprised if the try DISH HD and the VIP 622 DVR. Just a fact and I have both D* and E* HD so I know. Still a big shock what D* has done (or not has done) to their HD customers this past year or so.*


Not sure why you are yelling...

But Dish pulled off a major deal by snagging those Voom SATs and programming...
If VOOM didn't go "under" and was still their own independent company....

Dish would be in nearlly the same boat as DirecTV.

It's not like they can just throw new SATs up there in a blink of an eye.
Things will improve.... the questions is.... are you willing to wait, or do you switch now.


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## JoeSchueller (Jun 16, 2004)

This thread is frighteningly similar to the dbstalk one.

Calling one of these devices superior/inferior is dependent on a set of *personal, subjective* requirements. It drives me insane that some people find the features they value somehow more noble than someone else's. The poor UTV guys who keep popping up and pointing out that they prefer the HR20's GUI over the HR10's keep getting completely blown away by people who have only known TiVo and only want to know TiVo.

The truth is, there are 2 choices that matter in this equation:
1) D*'s choice to go this direction to maximize their value to their shareholders
and
2) What you choose to do with your hard-earned dollars when it comes to home entertainment media and devices

As far as I know, there will be no Taliban forces out there requiring anyone to get an HR20 at gunpoint.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> Now we need to differentiate between "better as in more powerful" and "better as in easier for a non-techie to pick up." If you think KDE is easier for a non-techie than a Mac (or even XP)...well then I don't think there's much point in continuing this conversation.


hehe, im going to have to agree 100% on that one. Sorry, windows is MUCH easier to pick up. Theres a reason Bill gates and Paul allen are loaded. I assure you it wasnt their good looks. 

As for the hr20-700, ive read great and bad reviews on it. I currently have comcast and directv. my directv just came off its "suspension" after 6 months. I called to cancel them today and they are offering me 2 of the dvr's for 99 bucks if i dont leave. Im still on the fence. I like the looks of the TIVO3, but, no way i can afford to buy 2 of them. So tivo's not an option. At least until their prices drop in half for the HD ones. Them giving me 7-800 bucks in hardware is hard to say no. I like directv a little better than comcast. Im just not sure i want to sign a 2 year lease with them and end up getting pissed off again like last time.


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## lancelot (Jul 8, 2006)

I was a Dish Network subscriber for 9 years. I switched to Directv this spring. My impressions are as follows: When I want equipment, with Directv, it's just a Bestbuy, Walmart, or Compusa away. No waisting time waiting for installers who don't show up, and no being limited to just one of a new receiver. 

More importantly though, the HR10-250, in my opinion, is a far better DVR than the Dish 921 or 942. I had both, and both of these receivers where headaches to me. Constant resets, daily freezes, etc., that made daily viewing a pain. The customer service at Directv seems much more interested in customer service than my experiences with Dish. 

Also, Dish charges $20 for its HD pack, while Directv charges $10. Some may argue that Dish ahs more channels, but for the extra $10, I can easily live without the endless loop Voom channels or the Food Channel in HD. 

I do think, however, Directv is making a huge mistake with its high end customers by abandoning the TIVO platform. Not being a TIVO user until this year, I can state, not being used to TIVO, right away I could tell it was a superior interface. My HR10-250 is signficantly better than my experience with Dish. The guide may be slower, but not one freeze up or reset. Also, we have an R10 Directivo and a R15 Directv Plus. The whole family prefers the tivo platform, and we love the suggestions. There's always something we like to watch on the hard drives. We are disappointed that the new equipment wont be TIVO. Perhaps we like TIVO more than Directv, who knows. But, the TIVO is great. If we lost it, I'd give serious consideration to going to cable with a Series 3. Anyway, these are my thoughts and we won"t be upgrading to the HR20-700 unless there are significant national channles that can only be viewed on the new receiver. 

Directv would be well served to offer TIVO.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

JoeSchueller said:


> Calling one of these devices superior/inferior is dependent on a set of *personal, subjective* requirements. It drives me insane that some people find the features they value somehow more noble than someone else's. The poor UTV guys who keep popping up and pointing out that they prefer the HR20's GUI over the HR10's keep getting completely blown away by people who have only known TiVo and only want to know TiVo.


Can't speak for what everyone else is trying to say...but I haven't been arguing that the HR10 is better, or worse. I've never seen an HR20.

The point I've been trying to make is that it's perfectly valid for someone to try the HR20 for an hour and then decide it's (in his or her opinion) inferior. It's the people who keep saying you have to give it days or weeks that I disagreer with; a properly designed piece of consumer electronics should be learnable in an hour, period.


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