# So what am I paying for???



## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

Hi,

I've only had tivo for a few months, but I just got a new Dell computer with a tv tuner and windows xp media center edition. 

The computer looks up my guide information. It allows me to search for programs. It also allows me to schedule "record all" with the options of repeats or not. It allows me to pause live tv, record etc. It really does every thing that tivo does except record things that it "thinks" I might like. Is that feature really worth 12.95/month? I can also connect the computer to my tv and for another 100 bucks or so I could have dual tv tuners and record one channel while watching another. 

So what am I really getting out of tivo? I won't get rid of it now, since I am using the computer in the office and not in the main living area. But if I had easy access I could connect to the tv and get almost all the benefits of tivo.


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## Okeemike (Apr 24, 2002)

I've got MCE as well, and when I think what you'll find is that the MCE 'experience' isn't seamless. The OS pokes its head through way too much. Granted, it does what Tivo does, except for Suggestions - and if that's not a big deal to you, then you're good to go. However, for the majority of consumers, having a PC in the Family Room is just still foreign to them. however, for kids in the bedrooms, college students, etc., MCE might be a very good solution.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

That's what I was thinking. Right now, it isn't in my living room and I do want to keep my tivo for that reason. But I can definitely see a future with integrated computer and a wireless networked house. I think that the fact that it is available via computer without the monthly fee makes tivo's future a bit shakey. They will definitely need to come up with more benefits to make it worth it.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

frayedend said:


> That's what I was thinking. Right now, it isn't in my living room and I do want to keep my tivo for that reason. But I can definitely see a future with integrated computer and a wireless networked house. I think that the fact that it is available via computer without the monthly fee makes tivo's future a bit shakey. They will definitely need to come up with more benefits to make it worth it.


That's what they're trying to do right now, with their expanded networking functionality and applications. Who knows if they'll succeed, but at least they're working on it.

I agree that a PC solution makes more sense in some cases, but the reality for me is that a PC has cost as its only advantage. A standalone solution, be it TiVo, dvd-burner, dvd-player, answering machine, fax... is normally much easier to deal with and much more reliable, at least in a multi-user household.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

I like TiVo a lot more than a PC, cause PC's are more of a pain to manage and all. Rather just have it setup and know it will work, one less aggravation. 

Rather have a TiVo box I can bring around and stick it in a spot by my TV and not have a computer there. 

The TiVo software is great, kinda a set it and forget it (infomercial ) kinda thing. 

Easy enough to transfer the shows to my computer to have as well. Very easy.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

While Microsoft doesn't _charge_ a recurring fee for guide data (and software updates and everything else that gets sent to your box/PC) ... it does _cost_ them to provide it. Some companies (Microsoft) are willing to absorb this cost ... some companies (Tivo) aren't.

Also, the Microsoft / LG LRM-519 (standalone DVR w/ DVD burner) which uses the Microsoft Program Guide and pulled guide data from the exact same place as MCE PCs ... when it was first introduced they did charge a subscription fee ($249 lifetime, $99.99 yearly, or $9.99 monthly). After a couple months they dropped the sub fees.

Anyway ... competition is good ... it'll be interesting to see where the market goes ... etc.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

It's interesting how MS and TiVo went different ways in trying to attract customers - MS dropping the sub fee, TiVo dropping the hardware fee. IMHO... I think TiVo made the wrong choice. We'll see, but I hope I'm wrong.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

MikeMar said:


> The TiVo software is great, kinda a set it and forget it (infomercial ) kinda thing.


But I didn't get my free set of steak knives or the hamburger rotisserie attachment. I'm kinda bummed out because if I decide to return the tivo, the steak knives and hamburger attachment were supposed to be mine to keep (just pay shipping and handling of $89.95).


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

For those that are satisfied with MCE, just wait 'til you can buy inexpensive Networked Digital Media Receivers that you can put anywhere in the house you have a TV or enterainment system to extend your playback from the MCE PC right to where you like to watch/listen.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MickeS said:


> It's interesting how MS and TiVo went different ways in trying to attract customers - MS dropping the sub fee, TiVo dropping the hardware fee. IMHO... I think TiVo made the wrong choice. We'll see, but I hope I'm wrong.


Looks like TiVo and MS have been going seperate ways in 'sub' acquistion too. MS is getting more buyers while TiVo's Net Sub Adds dropped from FY05 to FY06. 

TiVo did this with higher SAC, meaning their Sub acquisition became even less efficient than it was.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

I think the biggest thing hurting TiVo overall is simply this. Where they fall

There are basically 4 groups of people

-Tech people that would just build their own DVR cause they can/want to and enjoy it
-Regular people who want a DVR, and say, ooo look cable DVR is cheaper, let's get that.
-Tech/somewhat techy people who know what TiVo is about and want it (probably most of us here)
-People who get TiVo cause of the brand recognition and think it will work better for them (of course it will)

I think the MAJORITY of the people out there fall into the simple price issue, so of course TiVo will lose out on that (especially w/ no lifetime now)
And the next big roup is the tech people who will build there own.
Then probably the people here, who know what TiVo is about and spread the word, and probably got into it to start cause they are somewhat techy.

Those are just my 2 cents on this all.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

Well all I can say about the benefit of having both is I don't need to network my tivo to my computer now. I can just record and burn dvds of the things I want to keep on my computer and use Tivo for the shows I will watch and discard. Now if I can just figure out what program to buy to burn copies of protected movies...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

well you are paying for the computer and the MCE license.  

I jsut bought a new HP PC with Media Center on it. More for a new Kitchen PC than as a media center but the price was good. I had it find my music last night - MP3s - it found them all but the sound was not playing correctly at all, So at some point I will have to figure that out.

yet after installing TiVodesktop - the playing of MP3s worked just as before.


I still vote for TiVo as easier to use and thus worth the price, of course that would be a marketing message that has proven hard for TiVo to get across.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Umm.. pardon me if I'm being stupid.. but isn't an MCE capable computer a heck of a lot more cash than a TIVO? Like umm.. 6-10x more for the hardware?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Yes it is. But people accept that because it's a computer.

And even monthly, without a sub, it will probably cost more than $20/month. Let's say a computer, completely unchanged hardware wise except maybe HD upgrades, last for 4 years. That's easily $25/month right there. BUT they own it, can sell it (not for much, but still) or give it away, or use as a backup or for the kid or... whatever they want. It used to be that way with TiVo too... but alas, no more.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

MickeS said:


> BUT they own it, can sell it (not for much, but still) or give it away, or use as a backup or for the kid or... whatever they want. It used to be that way with TiVo too... but alas, no more.


Yeah, my father is using a hand me down (er up) PC that I originally built for myself in 1995. It was my mother's PC for about 6 years in between but she's since upgraded to my next hand me up. Since they are non-techy, have poor eyesight and don't enjoy reading manuals, they like computers that are well-tested and do things like they've been done for years.


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

The price difference is less and less a problem. As has been said, some people are now using their "old" computers to make their own DVR - which in essence, costs nothing. 3 years from now, when everyone has a newer computer, their old machines will be more than capable of ANY dvr functions. As technology increases, the idea of a monthly $13 for Tivo service will look laughable to nearly all consumers. Now, without the possibility of a lifetime service, Tivo has effectively proven their complete inability to gague future technology needs/wants of consumers. Microsoft, however, has done the opposite. Let's see which one is around in 3 years.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Atomike said:


> The price difference is less and less a problem. As has been said, some people are now using their "old" computers to make their own DVR - which in essence, costs nothing. 3 years from now, when everyone has a newer computer, their old machines will be more than capable of ANY dvr functions. As technology increases, the idea of a monthly $13 for Tivo service will look laughable to nearly all consumers. Now, without the possibility of a lifetime service, Tivo has effectively proven their complete inability to gague future technology needs/wants of consumers. Microsoft, however, has done the opposite. Let's see which one is around in 3 years.


Majority of the population will not be able to run their own DVR computer, and even if they are, if something minor happens, they will not know how to fix it.

TiVo is the simpliar solution, and majority of people either want a Tivo or a cable DVR at the very least.

And then you still have the issue of people not wanting a computer in their living room.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

MikeMar said:
 

> Majority of the population will not be able to run their own DVR computer, and even if they are, if something minor happens, they will not know how to fix it.


My Mom (who is 72) called me a couple of weeks ago because her "new" PC locked up. I reminded her about the reset button and all was well. She had forgotten about it because in 2 years of use on Windows XP, this was her first real problem. The old Windows 95 machine (now dad's) used to require resets once every month or so - enough to keep her familiar with the button. In case of massive failure, she backs up to an external USB drive but she's never had to use that. Companies depending in the fallibility of PCs to sell dedicated hardware are having less and less of a sales point as MS gets its act together.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

lajohn27 said:


> Umm.. pardon me if I'm being stupid.. but isn't an MCE capable computer a heck of a lot more cash than a TIVO? Like umm.. 6-10x more for the hardware?


I don't think it can really be put in those terms. What you can do is say that I paid 50 dollars extra for the tv tuner. Now if I wanted a basic tivo without the subscription (do they still sell them?) it would cost about 300-400 bucks (last time I looked. Windows media center edition was standard, the 160 GB hard drive I was getting anyhow, the dvd burner was something I wanted anyway. Basically I was getting a new computer. I had no idea about tv tuners in the computer until I started looking. I had no idea how much the computer was capable of (compared to tivo) until I actually started using Media Center. I assumed that I would have to just set a record time and channel. I was extremely happy when I realized I would have a guide (no cable box for the computer) and that I could get the equivilant of "season pass". In the long run Tivo would be cheaper, but doesn't come with a computer. I think the reality is that anyone that would even consider tivo most likely is tech savvy enough to have a computer. And these days, computers are disposable. Really, I paid less than $1000 for a 160GB HD, 1GB memory, dual dvd drives (one rom, on dvd rw), media center, tv tuner, 2 speakers with subwoofer, 19" Digital Flat Panel display). Can't be beat. They always try to sell you an extra warranty, but for what, next year I'll want something better anyhow.

Anyhow, like I said, I need Tivo now because of my tv location. But I am uncertain of their future. I could easily see setting up my computer, running s-video and audio cables to my tv (possible to do this now) and perhaps having a networked remote control receiver in the tv room to my computer. The networked remote and s-video (or some other connection) and audio to my tv would be all it would take for me to dump the tivo (after my year is up and my rebate is good). Realistically speaking the only thing stopping me from doing this now is running cables from one floor to another.

Like said in previous posts, I think that Tivo needs to really think about additional features if they expect to stay viable for very long. I like my Tivo, but I am definitely the type to look at price vs benefit.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

frayedend - what if you are an average family and your computer is no where near your TV?

I know my parents single computer is no where near a TV, and in their vaca home, they don't have a computer and wouldn't want one in the basement, but wouldn't mind a TiVo.

I think you are comparing apples to oranges.

I recently (6 months ago) bought a pretty good computer, and I wouldn't want to have that recording TV shows all the time. What if I have to reboot? What if I'm playing CPU intensive video games, I don't want my recordings to skip.

I could probably setup and run a media center pc no prob, but have no desire to simply because TiVo does it the best and it's a dedicated resource for it.


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## TomJHansen (Nov 6, 2000)

HDTiVo said:


> For those that are satisfied with MCE, just wait 'til you can buy inexpensive Networked Digital Media Receivers that you can put anywhere in the house you have a TV or enterainment system to extend your playback from the MCE PC right to where you like to watch/listen.


XBox360 has this Windows Media Extender software built in. It's very "version 1.0" in that it's buggy (MP3's skip)...but a big plus (for me) is that it uses the 802.11 G speed in the wireless - and you stream recorded shows directly from the MCE PC. But the ease of use isn't there yet - so I'll keep my network of 4 Tivos for now


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## xnevergiveinx (Apr 5, 2004)

i can use my pc as a media center. i dont. reason? because i love tivo. it's nice and easy to use. i'm hooked on it.
it's smaller and quieter than my pc.
i actually enjoy learning a little linux when installing drive space to my tivo.
i really like the remote control.

i just figured, if i wanted a media center, i would have used one. i had this computer before i had my tivos, i guess it didn't impress me as much as tivo did.

in the future i might build my own media center, hopefully something revolving around a mac mini. till then, i'm happy with my tivos


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

lajohn27 said:


> Umm.. pardon me if I'm being stupid.. but isn't an MCE capable computer a heck of a lot more cash than a TIVO? Like umm.. 6-10x more for the hardware?


1. Not anymore.
2. Bad analogy.
3. Try again.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

MikeMar said:


> frayedend - what if you are an average family and your computer is no where near your TV?
> 
> I know my parents single computer is no where near a TV, and in their vaca home, they don't have a computer and wouldn't want one in the basement, but wouldn't mind a TiVo.
> 
> ...


All very good points, for the time being. I think my point is that I could easily see computer companies capitalizing on this with Windows Media Center. What if Dell just made a CPU with a tv tuner, media center, and maybe a dvd burner. I can get a computer with all of this and much more for about 700 right now. If they cut it down to just being a dvr using windows media center they could take a lot away from tivo. My view is that...I didn't get tivo basic, or my cable company dvr because of what tivo can do (season pass, search for titles). But I also hate monthly fees. If dell sold something like this and it worked with media center the way my computer works now and I could put it under my tv, just like my other components, then I wouldn't need tivo. As hardware prices come down I just think it will be hard for tivo to stay ahead of the competition. The only thing they have extra now is the convenience of location (at the tv) and "suggestions" which I am not a fan of. Hey, just because I watch Rachel Ray doesn't mean I want to see Mario Battali 

Of course, I just realized that Media Center can get everyone hooked and then start charging a monthly fee also...ya never know.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Looks like TiVo and MS have been going seperate ways in 'sub' acquistion too. MS is getting more buyers while TiVo's Net Sub Adds dropped from FY05 to FY06.
> 
> TiVo did this with higher SAC, meaning their Sub acquisition became even less efficient than it was.


I wonder how many of those MCE buyers actually use those recording features?

Dell and HP are including MCD as the default OS and in Dell's case, no TV tuner in the default configuration.
(Dell includes one as an $83 option)

I know people who have gotten MCE as their OS and they have no intention of using it to record TV.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

JYoung said:


> I wonder how many of those MCE buyers actually use those recording features?
> 
> Dell and HP are including MCD as the default OS and in Dell's case, no TV tuner in the default configuration.
> (Dell includes one as an $83 option)
> ...


That is an interesting question. I think as people realize the potential they will use it more. I didn't know anything about it until I was looking for a new computer for the office. I realized then that I could get rid of the 19" tv that was in their taking up space and just use the computer as a tv when I wanted. Kinda killed 2 birds with one stone. I still was thinking about recording things until I got it and realized that I could set up to record every episode. Just for kicks I set it to record power rangers for my kids. Then I made a dvd easy as pie (if not a bit time consuming). Now the kids have dvds of their favorite show. I know I could have done this with tivo by networking to my computer. But this is much simpler, I didn't have to buy a network adapter for my tivo and I don't have to spend time transferring.

I think the computer companies should be marketing this feature more vigorously. When I looked at "entertainment pcs" on dells site I was thinking of gaming and internet stuff. I was not thinking of television and movies. I think as people become more aware of what they can do, it will become more popular.


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## xnevergiveinx (Apr 5, 2004)

i'd rather get a refurb box with lifetime for $300 and then spend $80 and drop in a 300 gig seagate...oh wait already did that.
no more bills. and was much cheaper than a media center.

i have a pc for pc stuff. i have a tivo for media stuff.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

xnevergiveinx said:


> i'd rather get a refurb box with lifetime for $300 and then spend $80 and drop in a 300 gig seagate...oh wait already did that.
> no more bills. and was much cheaper than a media center.


That works till Friday.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> frayedend - what if you are an average family and your computer is no where near your TV?


...


> Originally Posted by HDTiVo
> For those that are satisfied with MCE, just wait 'til you can buy inexpensive Networked Digital Media Receivers that you can put anywhere in the house you have a TV or enterainment system to extend your playback from the MCE PC right to where you like to watch/listen.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I wonder how many of those MCE buyers actually use those recording features?


Multiples of the number of people buying TiVoes.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

dgh said:


> That works till Friday.


 :up: :up: :up:


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

I hope folks posting in this thread realize that there are going to be wireless g/100mbps ethernet capable Media Extenders for $69 soon.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> I hope folks posting in this thread realize that there are going to be wireless g/100mbps ethernet capable Media Extenders for $69 soon.


Don't really care, not going to use a computer for media (if it is also my main PC i use for everything else)

And I'm not going to drop a grand for one either.

So for me at least, in the next 5 years at least, it ain't gonna happen.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

HD :

Your reply makes no sense.

To avoid spending 12.95 a month.. I'm going to spend ~600$ to 1000$ for an MCE computer ?

Ridiculous. If Joe consumer couldn't afford lifetime, what makes us think he can afford to put a computer in its place.

J


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

lajohn27 said:


> HD :
> 
> Your reply makes no sense.
> 
> ...


$12.95/month adds up to your claimed minimum MCE computer in only 46 months. And people who are strapped for cash are usually buying computers for other reasons already - such as preparing their kids for a future workforce that takes computer skills as a given. People on a tight budget are likely to buy one box for both purposes though that may mean some compromises in usability.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Seems like a huge apples and oranges comparison to me.. But hey.. what the h*** do I know.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> I hope folks posting in this thread realize that there are going to be wireless g/100mbps ethernet capable Media Extenders for $69 soon.


So it seems that my idea will be more easily done in the near future. I have seen a lot of posts about why people use tivo over media center (primarily location and worried about computer crashes), but I still haven't seen anything telling me what I am paying for with my 13 bucks a month that I can't get with media center for free. My point still being that I get everything tivo does, minus the suggestions, for free on my pc. Sure their are benefits to tivo, but as technology catches up those benefits will be lost. My only guess at this point is that I am on a payment plan for my tivo box. Sort of like buying the lifetime thing...you don't really pay for a lifetime subscription so much as pay full price for a tivo box. So in the end, I will certainly lose money if I keep doing the subscription on the same box for a few years. Did I read that they aren't doing the lifetime thing anymore???

I think that as the hardware prices come down, to say $100 for a good tivo box, the subscription thing will be obsolete. This will be Tivo's downfall. I think they need to start working with computer companies and cable providers very soon or they won't be around for long. (I'm not downing Tivo, I do love having it. I just see problems for them in the future).

Example--- Netscape: We make a great web browser. Buy it now for only $XX.XX. But here comes Microsoft: We have a great web browser, and it's free with your computer. Where is netscape now??


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

unless it is sold and marketed as a plug it in, connect up a phone line or network and go type of box, Average housholds will not buy a PC for DVR use.

and lets be real folks - unless you only record CNN overnight or soaps during the day - you are going to want a dedicated box for a DVR.

The irony to me is I did what you desribe early on - I had an old early pentium PC I did not use much. So I bought an ATI TV card - used the just released windows 98 and ATI's scheduling software to record about 6 or 7 shows - then watched them through Composite to my TV.

guess what I called it - a Poor Man's TiVo  Since TiVo DVRs cost 300$ for 40 hour hardware at that point.


and yes today's PCs with Windows Media Center smoke that old PC setup and can do dual tuners but you do not have - HD.

nothing will happen with PC based DVRs until HD becomes easily doable in a dedicated box. TEch types will have a blast with PC based DVRs adn extenders and the like becasue it is cool and can do a lot, but I am looking at troubleshooting mu just bought PC taht came with Media center just to play MP3s on the PC through media center  
TiVo will be right there though with a series 3 that has dual tuners and HD and with cable cards you just hook up the cable, hook up phone or network and plug it in. Aside from cable companu DVRs - I am not seeing much real direct compettion in this arena for at least two years.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

I see our troll is back. Same guy, new sheep's clothing.

Why spend the money on MCE? A Linux box will always be about $100 cheaper on OS alone, but you can also go with cheaper hardware because of Linux's relative performance advantages. So get MythTV and knock yourself out. If you are a hobbyist you'll have tons of fun. Most people don't want the aggrevation.

But Myth will likely never get CableLabs certification for CableCARD, so you're stuck with analog. MCE will get certified on some platforms, so that becomes an option again for digital subs. But you're still stuck with the fact that there are a lot of people who think TiVo is too complicated to set up -- how many people are going to want to install and maintain a PC-based solution? (Q: How many Americans does it take to change a light bulb?*)

The bottom line is that TiVo and cable and satellite providers have established the pattern of monthly payments for DVR service. That's unlikely to change. So what will you get for your money? People will have to judge for themselves.



*A: Two. One to call for help, and one to mix the drinks.


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## tmesser (Apr 12, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> The bottom line is that TiVo and cable and satellite providers have established the pattern of monthly payments for DVR service. That's unlikely to change. So what will you get for your money? People will have to judge for themselves.


Personally, I have no problem with a monthly payment because it means I don't have to manage Yet Another Computer in my house. I tell TiVo what to record and it just _works_. I'm sure plenty of people take the same view I do.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

lajohn27 said:


> HD :
> 
> Your reply makes no sense.
> 
> ...


No, you make no sense. Did you even read the earlier comments to get a context?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I have no problem seeing the PCs as TiVO competitors - but not for recording TV, only for downloading. That's where the future is, and that's where TiVo is trying to get its foot in the door, so it can offer an easy-to-use box for both downloading and recording. I already use both, I download shows on the PC, and stream them to the TiVo so I can watch it on the TV. That's a much better solution than recording shows. No conflicts, no schedules, no season passes. If I could download directly to the TiVo, I'd ditch the PC in a heartbeat.

I am convinced that the PC will NEVER take off as a recording device. Cable DVRs will crush the PC solutions.

I mean, come on... does anyone REALLY prefer a PC-based solution, if there is a standalone solution available, and if cost is not important? That's what it always comes down to it seems to me.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> unless it is sold and marketed as a plug it in, connect up a phone line or network and go type of box, Average housholds will not buy a PC for DVR use.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Average households are not exactly buying many TiVoes either.

Within a few short months, PCs will be coming with Cable Card slots; probably before the S3 ships.

The S3 with Lifetime has a 'retail value' of $1500, according to TiVo's Idol contest. Even after discount to $999 or whatever, S3 is going to make the MCE not look so expensive.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

frayedend: Since ChuckyBox accused you of being a troll, I looked at your past posts and saw that you aren't, buy I also saw where in your very first thread, I suggested that you could save money by going with lifetime. You've only got one day left to make that choice. I suggest you make tomorrow the day to buy lifetime or plan on the MCE (or something else) as your future solution.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

dgh said:


> frayedend: Since ChuckyBox accused you of being a troll, I looked at your past posts and saw that you aren't, buy I also saw where in your very first thread, I suggested that you could save money by going with lifetime. You've only got one day left to make that choice. I suggest you make tomorrow the day to buy lifetime or plan on the MCE (or something else) as your future solution.


And the rules have changed yet again. 

He now has until 4/15/06 to buy Lifetime on his "old" TiVo. :up: :up:


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

HDTiVo said:


> And the rules have changed yet again.
> 
> He now has until 4/15/06 to buy Lifetime on his "old" TiVo. :up: :up:


Aw man, this is getting so confusing. But you're right - I think - I'm almost certain. 

I thought that only applied to Humax models, but it looks like that applies to TiVo Inc. models and there's another new (and even stranger) rule for Humax DVD recorder models. 

But I wouldn't wait too long. Anything could change again.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

dgh said:


> Aw man, this is getting so confusing. But you're right - I think - I'm almost certain.
> 
> I thought that only applied to Humax models, but it looks like that applies to TiVo Inc. models and there's another new (and even stranger) rule for Humax DVD recorder models.
> 
> But I wouldn't wait too long. Anything could change again.


Yeah!! The Humax's are keeping the Lifetime option.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Multiples of the number of people buying TiVoes.


You have the figures on that?


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

HDTiVo said:


> Yeah!! The Humax's are keeping the Lifetime option.


But only some of them and only if they don't have an "activation history". There must have been lawyers involved in that rule.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

dgh said:


> But only some of them and only if they don't have an "activation history". There must have been lawyers involved in that rule.


The Humaxes sold "in the future" also keep the Lifetime option.

I think we finally caught up now to today's latest rules.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

A single S3 in the house, if it integrates with the MS Media Center architecture, could make an excellent Non-PC MC PC.


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> A single S3 in the house, if it integrates with the MS Media Center architecture, could make an excellent Non-PC MC PC.


EXCEPT - since you will not be able to buy one with a lifetime sub, there's little point. S3's are the wave of the past.

Within the next few weeks, every reason to purchase a new Tivo will disappear. 
I predict that some company will begin selling dedicated boxes which run MCE in the sub-$500 range in the next few years. Tivo will become a name everyone knows, which belonged to product which no longer exists.
This CEO is probably the best example of incompetence you will ever find.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

JYoung said:


> I wonder how many of those MCE buyers actually use those recording features?
> 
> Dell and HP are including MCD as the default OS and in Dell's case, no TV tuner in the default configuration.
> (Dell includes one as an $83 option)
> ...


Yup. I know someone who bought a HP machine from Circuit City that also came w/MCE but no tuners at all. I haven't been able to convince them to join the TiVolution either...


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

dgh said:


> frayedend: Since ChuckyBox accused you of being a troll, I looked at your past posts and saw that you aren't, buy I also saw where in your very first thread, I suggested that you could save money by going with lifetime. You've only got one day left to make that choice. I suggest you make tomorrow the day to buy lifetime or plan on the MCE (or something else) as your future solution.


Ya know, I read that comment and figured it was talking about someone else. I am definitely not a troll. I love my Tivo, as I said. I was really just curious as to why I have to pay for monthly sub when the service can be had for free. Again, in my posts I just think Tivo needs to watch the business plan carefully in the case that computer companies decide to try and compete directly with a non-subscription, fairly cheap windows based dvr in the future. To tell you the truth I was expecting something like "tivo does this and your pc can't" and that would be the end of it. I've never started a thread that had so many posts. Obviously this means that I at least have some validity to my posts. As for the lifetime, it is a good idea but I don't have the cash right now and the way my luck usually runs is that the machine will break 2 weeks after I get the lifetime  Perhaps that alone is the answer to my first post. I think they will eventually just give the box out for free with a paid subscription. It works for cable companies, cell phone companies etc. And I guess the points about working with a pc and all the troubles with them make sense. Time will tell what happens. As for now, I am happy with my Tivo on my tv and my media center on my pc to make dvds.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

frayedend said:


> Ya know, I read that comment and figured it was talking about someone else. I am definitely not a troll. I love my Tivo, as I said. ... To tell you the truth I was expecting something like "tivo does this and your pc can't" and that would be the end of it.


Then who's the Troll? 

MCE can't do KidZone.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

frayedend said:


> As for the lifetime, it is a good idea but I don't have the cash right now and the way my luck usually runs is that the machine will break 2 weeks after I get the lifetime  Perhaps that alone is the answer to my first post.


Yes, that's just what I was about to say. When you can't afford to pay for something and/or don't want to take any risk, someone will be very happy to rent it to you for the rest of your life - that's a very profitable business model. So, that's what you're paying for.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

I wonder if a comany like Weaknees will offer a TiVo exchange service; for $XX you swap your "dead" TiVo box for a Weaknees refurb. At the same time they can upsell you a big HD.

Would such a box swap be allowed under the multi-year commitment?


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> Then who's the Troll?
> 
> MCE can't do KidZone.


I'm not really sure. I assume that post was referring to someone who was always down on tivo and then changed names. I don't really have a need to do that. If I have something to say I'll say it with the same log on name. After all the boards are for info and discussion. Sometimes if there is disagreement it makes for good conversation during a crappy work day. I am not down on tivo. I was just curious about the future. Anyhow, I only have one logon name that I use for everything. You can check it out at "thesmokering.com (fairly new)" and "bbqsource.com (member for about a year)", oh and also, "disboards.com" These are all boards that I have posted to, some for a long time. As a matter of fact, I was frayedend on AOL version 1.0 and the name stuck (wish I was smart enough to know about buying stock back then).


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> Would such a box swap be allowed under the multi-year commitment?


Yes. This came up in another thread and Stephen Mack said it was handled as a "service number change" (or something like that). You can do it now under the 12-month contract, as well.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

frayedend said:


> I love my Tivo, as I said.


That's what "joe" said, too.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> That's what "joe" said, too.


If you really think I am a troll, can you tell me the logon name of "joe" so I can look at the past posts and see what I am being accused of?


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

You aren't paying TiVo strickly for the guide data, you are paying for the software, the software updates, the stability, and all the bells and whistles.

I love the multi room viewing thing first off, so that's a big plus. Ease of use. Being able to just fit the box somewhere where I could not put a PC. That is what I am paying for, and have no problem paying for it.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> That's what "joe" said, too.


Aw come on. The guy correctly answered his own question. Trolls don't clear their threads up like that.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

dgh said:


> Aw come on. The guy correctly answered his own question. Trolls don't clear their threads up like that.


And he's more subtle, too. So he's learning. But I'll stick with my original assessment.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> And he's more subtle, too. So he's learning. But I'll stick with my original assessment.


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## PhillyGuy (Mar 12, 2006)

You are paying for the convenience and service. Think of this way: why do people stay at a 5* hotel when when they can get a room for a fraction of the cost? Why do people buy a BMW when they can get a Ford? 

There are cheaper alternatives available, but you are paying a premium for what Tivo offers.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

Come on, can't you give me the log on name that you think I 'was"? I just want to see what I supposedly was posting. Or is it against board policy to give a name or something? Anyhow, I don't really care if you think I'm a troll, but it would bother me if the other posts you are talking about are totally against what I may think about things.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

frayedend said:


> Come on, can't you give me the log on name that you think I 'was"? I just want to see what I supposedly was posting. Or is it against board policy to give a name or something? Anyhow, I don't really care if you think I'm a troll, but it would bother me if the other posts you are talking about are totally against what I may think about things.


I don't think you are that other guy. He started a thread on (edit - Sage) TV being cheaper and better but then went off to a bunch of FUD about TiVo to try and prove his point. Turns out he was a member of (edit - SageTV) board and was trying to make some Myth to TiVo comparison to put (edit - SageTV) in the best light. He was a very transparent troll and not subtle at all in my opinion.

If you are a troll  you are much better at it


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> You aren't paying TiVo strickly for the guide data, you are paying for the software, the software updates, the stability, and all the bells and whistles.
> 
> I love the multi room viewing thing first off, so that's a big plus. Ease of use. Being able to just fit the box somewhere where I could not put a PC. That is what I am paying for, and have no problem paying for it.


The numbers break down like this:

In FY06 ARPU was $8.83/mo. ACPU was $2.25/mo - that's guide data and other costs related to providing service.

So $6.58/mo went to software updates and other intangibles, including operating profits on services which help fund other parts of the company.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I don't think you are that other guy. He started a thread on Myth TV being cheaper and better but then went off to a bunch of FUD about TiVo to try and prove his point. Turns out he was a member of some Myth board and was trying to make some Myth to TiVo comparison to put MythTV in the best light. He was a very transparent troll and not subtle at all in my opinion.
> 
> If you are a troll  you are much better at it


Not that I could prove it, but I don't even know what Myth TV is. I'll check it out though. Thanks.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

frayedend said:


> Come on, can't you give me the log on name that you think I 'was"?


Here he is in all his glory:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/search.php?searchid=5491

Joe123(j) is a huge SageTV booster and is still posting in the SageTV forum about his delightful 5 TVs connected to some old PC that he put SageTV on. If he's you, he's doing a lot of work over on that other forum (218 posts so far), that most of us over here don't read, to make him look unlike you


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

joe123j spelled tuner "tunner" consistently. That's how I knew frayedend was not him.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> Average households are not exactly buying many TiVoes either.
> 
> Within a few short months, PCs will be coming with Cable Card slots; probably before the S3 ships.
> 
> The S3 with Lifetime has a 'retail value' of $1500, according to TiVo's Idol contest. Even after discount to $999 or whatever, S3 is going to make the MCE not look so expensive.


that was a lawyer's price that TiVoOpsMgr has already discounted as the lawyer making them put a value on the prize and TiVo went high end. It most likely uses TiVo's much higher estimate of what a lifetime would cost to make sense for TiVo to still offer lifetime. That price will not be the price of an S3 due to the competition that is already out there anyway, not including the PC based solutions coming.

now as to those PC based solutions - notice how a few high end designs (1800$) from the likes of Dell have come out as a DVR based MCE to put beside the TV. No one has come out with a 500$ one that I have seen. Add in cable card and HD recorders and the power to handle mutiple streams of it along with PC stuff like browsing and multimedia playback adn DVD burning - you are not seeing a sub 500$ MCE based DVR solution for at least two years.

Someone else in the thread nailed it with download ability. Teh series 3 will handle mpeg4 (which is a real lack in Series 2) that will chnage the download picture considerably and the real battle will be there. Apple is basing the Mac mini around downloads as a good media center. Apple could care less about DVR functionality as adding in unneeded expense in a download world.

It is when downloads become a prevelant content source that MCE based soltions without much DVR capability will be real competition and a way to have one box serve many needs for a family.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MickeS said:


> joe123j spelled tuner "tunner" consistently. That's how I knew frayedend was not him.


Didn't he demand a DUEL TUNNER?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> that was a lawyer's price that TiVoOpsMgr has already discounted as the lawyer making them put a value on the prize and TiVo went high end. It most likely uses TiVo's much higher estimate of what a lifetime would cost to make sense for TiVo to still offer lifetime. That price will not be the price of an S3 due to the competition that is already out there anyway, not including the PC based solutions coming.


So you agree my discount to $999 is in the ballpark.



> now as to those PC based solutions - notice how a few high end designs (1800$) from the likes of Dell have come out as a DVR based MCE to put beside the TV. No one has come out with a 500$ one that I have seen. Add in cable card and HD recorders and the power to handle mutiple streams of it along with PC stuff like browsing and multimedia playback adn DVD burning - you are not seeing a sub 500$ MCE based DVR solution for at least two years.


A Bundled S2 costs $469 for 3 years. Lifetime Bundle - if TiVo offered it - couldn't be less than $649. So a full PC w/ MCE DVR won't be available for 77% of the price of an S2 for awhile? Who cares, that's no comparison.

Using a single MCE - which no one is going to 'force' you to connect to your TV directly - you will be able to extend your MCE DVR experience all over the house with cheap Digital Media Receivers. A bunch of S2s or S3s is going to cost alot more.



> Someone else in the thread nailed it with download ability. Teh series 3 will handle mpeg4 (which is a real lack in Series 2) that will chnage the download picture considerably and the real battle will be there. Apple is basing the Mac mini around downloads as a good media center. Apple could care less about DVR functionality as adding in unneeded expense in a download world.
> 
> It is when downloads become a prevelant content source that MCE based soltions without much DVR capability will be real competition and a way to have one box serve many needs for a family.


Then on the MPEG-4 front, TiVo has no advantage. By the end of this year there will be lots of content available to download/stream on demand to MCE PCs and play on DMRs. MS's Networked Digital Media architecture is being adopted by many content providers and is looking like a favorite to dominate the market.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> So you agree my discount to $999 is in the ballpark.


maybe as a 3 year bundle - but not for just the hardware alone.



> A Bundled S2 costs $469 for 3 years. Lifetime Bundle - if TiVo offered it - couldn't be less than $649. So a full PC w/ MCE DVR won't be available for 77% of the price of an S2 for awhile? Who cares, that's no comparison.
> 
> Using a single MCE - which no one is going to 'force' you to connect to your TV directly - you will be able to extend your MCE DVR experience all over the house with cheap Digital Media Receivers. A bunch of S2s or S3s is going to cost alot more.


 How many consumers are looking for that, though. Most are still waiting to be convinced they need a DVR at all. PC makers are not seeing a big market in DVRs comapred to the regular PC market they already dominate. they just add MCE as the OS to make their PC offering better than someone elses PC offering. I stick to there will be no direct DVR competitor to a TiVo for at least two years. and that assumes a market emerges with enough demand to draw in PC makers.



> Then on the MPEG-4 front, TiVo has no advantage. By the end of this year there will be lots of content available to download/stream on demand to MCE PCs and play on DMRs. MS's Networked Digital Media architecture is being adopted by many content providers and is looking like a favorite to dominate the market.


 yup, series 3 is where TiVo will be competing next year. hence my opionion that the series 3 will not be priced at a premium but will come down in price to stay competitive


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

Well I looked at a couple of Joes posts (the link above didn't work, said couldn't find it or something). I also looked at Myth tv and Sage tv. Both too complicated for me. I'm not real technical. I like tech toys, but I want "plug and play" type things. If my windows media center came with something that just hooked (with computer in another room) to the tv and worked then I would maybe use it and consider losing tivo. That's not possible yet. But I am definitely not Joe.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

The other reason I know you're not Joe, is that he'd be absolutely ecstatic over the TiVo announcement, telling us what fools we all are and parsing the comments from TiVo employees about how they decided to be nice to us and let current lifetime subs continue. He'd be ripping us apart and we'd be pretty defenseless right now.

However, the basic question of "What am I paying for" has been going on here for 6 years in various forms: why am I paying for information that my cable/satellite guide has? why am I paying for information on the web? why am I paying for information that the broadcasters want me to have? why am I paying when ReplayTV (1999) and MythTV (now) don't make me pay... etc. Various people have various answers - mine has always been a variation of the one you found for yourself - yes, why are *you* choosing to pay when lifetime service and [whatever option the poster mentioned] are available?


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

dgh said:


> The other reason I know you're not Joe, is that he'd be absolutely ecstatic over the TiVo announcement, telling us what fools we all are and parsing the comments from TiVo employees about how they decided to be nice to us and let current lifetime subs continue. He'd be ripping us apart and we'd be pretty defenseless right now.
> 
> However, the basic question of "What am I paying for" has been going on here for 6 years in various forms: why am I paying for information that my cable/satellite guide has? why am I paying for information on the web? why am I paying for information that the broadcasters want me to have? why am I paying when ReplayTV (1999) and MythTV (now) don't make me pay... etc. Various people have various answers - mine has always been a variation of the one you found for yourself - yes, why are *you* choosing to pay when lifetime service and [whatever option the poster mentioned] are available?


No ripping apart here. It doesn't surprise me that they ended the lifetime sub. I actually didn't know about it until I read it here. I guess it could be a losing battle to keep the lifetime subscription. If everyone did it and their hardware lasts too long they would lose money in the long run. The simple answer to my question is "your tivo box retail value is $350, so you could have gotten a lifetime subscription and the box for that amount without paying monthly, but you chose to get the tivo box for almost nothing so you have to pay monthly". Oh well, I chose monthly and that is what I will live with. My question has been more than answered. I am completely surprised with the amount of posts this thread generated. I will look at my choice in the positive way. I can justify buying a tivo 3 when they come out because I didn't just pay $350 for the version 2. After all I do want duel tunners  ...just kidding, I'm not Joe, believe me. Did he really say duel tunners, and did he actually think that was correct or was he just trying to irk people?

Thanks for all the replies everyone!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

frayedend said:


> No ripping apart here. It doesn't surprise me that they ended the lifetime sub. I actually didn't know about it until I read it here. I guess it could be a losing battle to keep the lifetime subscription. If everyone did it and their hardware lasts too long they would lose money in the long run. The simple answer to my question is "your tivo box retail value is $350, so you could have gotten a lifetime subscription and the box for that amount without paying monthly, but you chose to get the tivo box for almost nothing so you have to pay monthly". Oh well, I chose monthly and that is what I will live with. My question has been more than answered. I am completely surprised with the amount of posts this thread generated. I will look at my choice in the positive way. I can justify buying a tivo 3 when they come out because I didn't just pay $350 for the version 2. After all I do want duel tunners  ...just kidding, I'm not Joe, believe me. Did he really say duel tunners, and did he actually think that was correct or was he just trying to irk people?
> 
> Thanks for all the replies everyone!


it was someone else that had a duel tuner thread where he typoed the dual.

but Joe definitely had tunner all over the place. never bothered to change it but then trolls are not about reading other posts and amending their viewpoint based on feedback. - anotehr strike against you being a troll


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## Xab (May 21, 2004)

I just built a Media Center PC and I really love it. I put a 320GB hard drive in there, and have it up and running really fast. Love the interface, much nicer than TiVo and much, much, much, much, much, much faster. No more lag/delay navigating my program guide! And no more monthly fees. Plus, when Blu-Ray or HD-DVD come around, it's a simple matter of changing the drive.

That said, it was a pain to get everything set up, and of course I had to build it myself. Much more than the average Joe is willing to go through, but if you have the means, it's a much better deal/solution than TiVo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Xab said:


> I just built a Media Center PC and I really love it. I put a 320GB hard drive in there, and have it up and running really fast. Love the interface, much nicer than TiVo and much, much, much, much, much, much faster. No more lag/delay navigating my program guide! And no more monthly fees. Plus, when Blu-Ray or HD-DVD come around, it's a simple matter of changing the drive.
> 
> That said, it was a pain to get everything set up, and of course I had to build it myself. Much more than the average Joe is willing to go through, but if you have the means, it's a much better deal/solution than TiVo.


so how much in total did you pay for everything and how many hours did you spend getting it all working. Need that data to backup the much betetr deal/solution than TiVo.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Xab said:


> That said, it was a pain to get everything set up, and of course I had to build it myself. Much more than the average Joe is willing to go through, but if you have the means, it's a much better deal/solution than TiVo.


Our average "Joe" had five TVs and five "tunners" running off of SageTV and had a whole big IP Media-something system that he set up in three minutes and it only cost a nickel.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> That said, it was a pain to get everything set up, and of course I had to build it myself. Much more than the average Joe is willing to go through, but if you have the means, it's a much better deal/solution than TiVo.


Well duh.  Although "better" is highly subjective, most people would agree that spending a bunch of dough on a PC can get it customized and set up in different ways than a TiVo, and thus serve a different market.

Once again, "no monhtly fees" had to be included as a plus.... after spending untold hundreds of dollars more than anyone paying monthly fees for TiVo will ever spend.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> Our average "Joe" had five TVs and five "tunners" running off of SageTV and had a whole big IP Media-something system that he set up in three minutes and it only cost a nickel.




And yet, the SageTV forum seems to be full of people, including Joe, who can't get the darn thing to work properly...


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

MickeS said:


> And yet, the SageTV forum seems to be full of people, including Joe, who can't get the darn thing to work properly...


Go figure. The tivocommunity is full of people who hate TiVo and complain about everything the company does.


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## Malibyte (Jun 12, 2005)

Someone brought up MythTV. I run Linux on everything. I wouldn't give up myTiVos, but I could see setting up a compact MythTV box to replace the DishDVR I have downstairs on the HDTV set....but I'm waiting until Myth does HDTV via satellite well.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

It's kind of funny now reading posts in favor of media center over tivo since I have changed my mind through the course of reading all the posts and thinking about it. 

Overall I think that this is what I would recommend...

If you are buying a new computer, consider the cost of getting a tv tuner pre-installed, with windows xp media center addition. It is a great tool for recording television, especially if you want to save them to dvd (you will also need to consider the added cost of a dvd burner, but just about everything I've read says that a pc with dvd burner is easier to control than a stand alone). 

But if you want all of the functionality on your television set (say you don't want to pay big bucks for a tv screen for your computer, I think Dell had TV Monitor screens but the cheapest 23" was $850) you will need Tivo. MCE is a great thing to have for a tv in your office/computer area for when you want to kick back and watch tv for a short time but it isn't gonna replace your living room television.

As for Sage, Myth and things like that, well I guess if your a tech nut who wants to spend a lot of time configuring things and troubleshooting then maybe you should look into them. I didn't get very far just reading the web sites for them.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

There is another issue - desktop sales are down, laptop sales are up. More and more people are buying laptops *instead of* desktop systems. Laptops make poor MCE systems because they tend to be untethered and move around with the user. Anything that will be used as a DVR you want to be fixed, tethered to the input at all times so it can always record.

TiVo is less expensive than commerical MCE PCs, simpler to use, and goes better in an entertainment system. It is becoming something of an accessory for a PC.


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## PhillyGuy (Mar 12, 2006)

megazone said:


> There is another issue - desktop sales are down, laptop sales are up. More and more people are buying laptops *instead of* desktop systems. Laptops make poor MCE systems because they tend to be untethered and move around with the user. Anything that will be used as a DVR you want to be fixed, tethered to the input at all times so it can always record.
> 
> TiVo is less expensive than commerical MCE PCs, simpler to use, and goes better in an entertainment system. It is becoming something of an accessory for a PC.


I totally agree. I've been thinking about getting a MCE PC, but I think I'll wait until the end of this year when Vista comes out. I will continue to use my Tivo in the meantime.

I think the reason why so many people have mentioned MCE is because as Tivo tries to increase the total cost of ownership, it becomes more sensible to consider its alternatives. A homegrown MCE computer (with MythTV) may not have the same mass appeal that Tivo has, but there are several more polished options available. You can get a PC with Windows MCE and added multiple wireless MCE extenders. So essentially you are streaming live video from a PC that's in another room. I think the option to stream HDTV is available already. Granted, it's not any cheaper than Tivo now, but it offers far more flexibility. It is also a one time investment and you can upgrade a component one at a time. I value my Tivo and I'm willing to pay a premium to use it, but only up to a certain point. I have a feeling that series 3 will cost more than I'm willing to pay for a DVR. If that is the case, I will make the switch.


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## Xab (May 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so how much in total did you pay for everything and how many hours did you spend getting it all working. Need that data to backup the much betetr deal/solution than TiVo.


The case cost me $45, the motherboard $72, CPU $185 (although I had Micro Center store credit that covered this, it would have cost me $150 at Newegg), 1GB RAM cost me $40 after rebate, DVD/RW drive was $39, HD cost me $129, the dual tuner card cost $129, and the Microsoft Remote & Tuner was $39.

Video & Sound are integrated on the nVidia board (and its a Geforce 6150, not GMA), and I'm not including the cost of the OS, because that's easy enough to find for free.

So you're talking about $680, for a dual tuner setup, with a 320G hard drive, and it is also a full PC should you need to use it as such. Retail price on the RS-TX20 is about $600, and I'm going to be paying a whopping $0/month in service.

Edit: Please note I'm definitely not intending to troll or anything similar, I've been a TiVo user for years, I just always kept telling myself that Media Center PCs are so expensive that it just isn't practical, but when I actually ran the numbers, it really wasn't that much, and it performs so much better than TiVo did.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

I just played a few episodes of power rangers for my kids on mce and found one thing that Tivo definitely has over it. When I fast forward the commercials it is either too slow or way too fast. When I caught the show and hit play, it was already into it and doesn't "back up" the way tivo does. It was an annoyance. I am constantly amazed at how well tivo does with the backing up thing.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Xab said:


> Video & Sound are integrated on the nVidia board (and its a Geforce 6150, not GMA), and I'm not including the cost of the OS, because that's easy enough to find for free.


Where can you legally get MCE for free?


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## PhillyGuy (Mar 12, 2006)

JYoung said:


> Where can you legally get MCE for free?


I think he means a pirated version of MCE that can be downloaded off the internet. There are actually several free softwares that can have DVR functions.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

So add another $120 or so for the MCE OS, and you're looking at $800. Not sure what the point was, other than that it costs more to build a MCE PC (with the new prices, a TiVo would be subscribed for 5 years for that cost) than it costs to buy a Tivo, and you get more flexibility and options.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

$800 for dual tuner 320GB PVR with no monthly costs that has a DVD burner and also happens to be a PC if you need it* is kind of interesting. It looks like it breaks even with a Humax DVD recorder (upgraded to the same drive but still single tuner) in a little over 2 years. (About the same as the traditional TiVo lifetime breakeven - all ignoring resale/remaining values of course - which reduce the breakeven time.) It's definitely a much tighter race than it used to be.

* for example you could run DVD editing software to trim those videos on the same box - kind of handy.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

dgh said:


> It's definitely a much tighter race than it used to be.


The DIY market has always offered fairly compelling price/performance arguments for a variety of products. (Assuming you are a DIY kind of person.) Look at what you can get if you build your own speakers. But I still think the Linux/Myth combo is a cheaper and potentially more powerful solution than MCE or Vista.

I think the MCE/Vista case will only really be interesting to the average consumer when it is complete and prepackaged as an appliance, like the LG box. But when you compare $600 to $19.95/month, it is hard sell. Especially when you are new to the product and aren't completely sure you need it or will use it.

In his presentation today, Stuart West was asked about this competition specifically, and he said they only saw it as competitive at the high end, but not a volume threat. (Though, IIRC, he did admit that PC-based solutions could take the lead in performance and features.)


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

MickeS said:


> So add another $120 or so for the MCE OS, and you're looking at $800. Not sure what the point was, other than that it costs more to build a MCE PC (with the new prices, a TiVo would be subscribed for 5 years for that cost) than it costs to buy a Tivo, and you get more flexibility and options.


And since he spent $45 on a case, it's hard to know whether the power supply is a crappy one and cause system stability problems. A lot of cheap cases come w/crappy/marginal power supplies that cause all sorts of weird probs. You end up having to spring for one from a quality maker like FSP Group (Sparkle Power, Fortron Source, etc.), Antec, or Enermax. Since OS pirated, good luck getting any updates other than sercurity fixes (at least MS is charitable enough to provide that for non-genuine copies, I believe). Also, where's the monitor or LCD? Is his TV (whatever it is) high enough res to be usable w/more than just MCE's 10-ft UI?

Oh yeah, besides the price of all the parts, how much time did he spend picking out and shopping for the components, assembling everything, looking for the pirated OS, installing it w/his drivers and apps, DVD burner software and then security fixes?

I've put together my last bunch of PCs (including the Athlon 64 3200+ I'm typing on now) and it took me quite a bit of research instead of buying random (potentially crappy) parts.

Xab: Care to tell me what your uptime is so far on that MCE? You can find it via http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/PsInfo.html. It doubt you'll ever get much beyond 30 days since security patches get released at least once a month and most require reboots. How many recordings have you missed due to EPG probs, bugs, crashes, machine not waking up, etc.?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> In his presentation today, Stuart West was asked about this competition specifically, and he said they only saw it as competitive at the high end, but not a volume threat. (Though, IIRC, he did admit that PC-based solutions could take the lead in performance and features.)


That's an interesting statement, because its sounding like the S3 will only be uncompetitive on price - even in the high end; and TiVo has never been a volume threat itself, and doesn't look to be any time soon.


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## Xab (May 21, 2004)

cwerdna said:


> And since he spent $45 on a case, it's hard to know whether the power supply is a crappy one and cause system stability problems. A lot of cheap cases come w/crappy/marginal power supplies that cause all sorts of weird probs. You end up having to spring for one from a quality maker like FSP Group (Sparkle Power, Fortron Source, etc.), Antec, or Enermax. Since OS pirated, good luck getting any updates other than sercurity fixes (at least MS is charitable enough to provide that for non-genuine copies, I believe). Also, where's the monitor or LCD? Is his TV (whatever it is) high enough res to be usable w/more than just MCE's 10-ft UI?
> 
> Oh yeah, besides the price of all the parts, how much time did he spend picking out and shopping for the components, assembling everything, looking for the pirated OS, installing it w/his drivers and apps, DVD burner software and then security fixes?
> 
> ...


I too was skeptical about the $45 case w/power supply, but this case was actually quite a nice surprise. It was great to work with, and has a lot of smart little details.

As for uptime, so far I haven't missed a single recording due to any issue. Let's not forget MCE is based off of the WinXP SP2 core, which is pretty stable these days. This isn't Win98. Also, there's an option in the latest update of MCE called "Optimization", which you can schedule once a day at any given time, and reportedly it reboots the OS back-end and makes sure everything stays running smoothly each day. I have this set to occur at 6AM, and it's pretty invisible when I wake up and check it.

I had an alarm set this morning, and even through the "Optimization" it woke me up on time, so it really doesn't seem to affect operations.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> That's an interesting statement, because its sounding like the S3 will only be uncompetitive on price - even in the high end;


Price isn't really an issue in that market, it is all about features and performance and reputation. People in this market work in price ranges. The difference between $700 and $900 isn't significant to someone who has a $6K TV, $5K speakers, a $4K receiver, $1K speaker cables, etc. And that's the low end of that market. I do think TiVo may need to reintroduce the lifetime contract for this market, but we'll see.

There are a number of reasons for making this product, and brand prestige is one of them. Chevy doesn't make the Corvette because the return from selling the car justifies the investment, they do it to get people into the showroom. But they also develop technology that will eventually find its way into mainstream products. TiVo is in a similar situation.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Xab said:


> Also, there's an option in the latest update of MCE called "Optimization", which you can schedule once a day at any given time, and reportedly it reboots the OS back-end and makes sure everything stays running smoothly each day.


Wow. If ever there was an admission that an OS was fundamentally flawed, this is Microsoft's. In software development having a process that periodically restarts itself for stability reasons is a sure sign of developers throwing in the towel and admitting they can't fix it.*

*Sometimes you have to -- if there is a memory leak in a third-party package on which you depend, for instance. But since Microsoft is the source of all the packages in Windows, this doesn't really apply...


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Nobody's mentioned here but I'm sure you're all aware anyway.. you can still buy lifetime on the HUMAX DVD recording TIVO units.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

cwerdna said:


> And since he spent $45 on a case, it's hard to know whether the power supply is a crappy one and cause system stability problems. A lot of cheap cases come w/crappy/marginal power supplies that cause all sorts of weird probs.


You really want to mention power supplies given all the S2 power supply problems we've seen lately? In addition, many in the help forum are convinced that many disk failures in TiVos are due to the very small power supplies in the TiVos not protecting them from power problems. The "we had a power failure and all the PCs are fine but the TiVo hard disk died" is awfully common.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> Chevy doesn't make the Corvette because the return from selling the car justifies the investment, they do it to get people into the showroom. But they also develop technology that will eventually find its way into mainstream products. TiVo is in a similar situation.


I must be having a bad day. I just can't get my mind around analogies between TiVo and Chevrolette.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> The DIY market has always offered fairly compelling price/performance arguments for a variety of products. (Assuming you are a DIY kind of person.)


Generally not so much in PCs. While I've always built my own (since 1976), I've rarely beaten ready to run prices like Dell's. But I do like having lots of choices of putting in exactly what I want.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

dgh said:


> Generally not so much in PCs. While I've always built my own (since 1976), I've rarely beaten ready to run prices like Dell's.


You must not have a Fry's near you.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

I first went to Frys around 1990 and it was impressive - groceries, oscilloscopes, and $1k matrix AV switches in the same store. It's not my favorite these days though.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

megazone said:


> TiVo is less expensive than commerical MCE PCs, simpler to use, and goes better in an entertainment system. It is becoming something of an accessory for a PC.


that old PC with the TV tuner card I used to use as a poor man's TiVo - 
I have it in the bedroom now and have my 240 TiVo hooked up to it so I can watch TV or TiVo via the PC.  I have the 240 there beciuse it is best at pulling MRV from the other TiVo DVRs in the house.


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## Xab (May 21, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> Wow. If ever there was an admission that an OS was fundamentally flawed, this is Microsoft's. In software development having a process that periodically restarts itself for stability reasons is a sure sign of developers throwing in the towel and admitting they can't fix it.*
> 
> *Sometimes you have to -- if there is a memory leak in a third-party package on which you depend, for instance. But since Microsoft is the source of all the packages in Windows, this doesn't really apply...


Well..if you want to have a programmer's discussion I guess your point is valid, but when it comes to the usability of the thing for the end user, and the overall experience, this doesn't matter at all. The fact that it does whatever it does at 6 in the morning has no effects whatsoever on my recordings, alarms, etc., and the box continues to perform quickly and well.

If you just wanted to make a point for the sake of doing so, then granted, but in the real world it just isn't too pertinent.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Xab said:


> If you just wanted to make a point for the sake of doing so, then granted, but in the real world it just isn't too pertinent.


Yeah, that was what I was doing. I should have made that more clear. Most real-world systems ship with plenty of known bugs that don't have a huge impact on usability. As an end-user, as you say, this solution is better than having the thing crash once a week or so. My comment was more about Microsoft's ever-more-burdened OS showing its age.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

dgh said:


> Generally not so much in PCs. While I've always built my own (since 1976), I've rarely beaten ready to run prices like Dell's. But I do like having lots of choices of putting in exactly what I want.


I was thinking this as I saw the $800 dollar price for build your own. My Dell was only 958 and while it only had a 160 gig HD, and one tv tuner, it did have a 19" digital lcd monitor and speakers with sub woofer. Probably an even trade. If you like building them, fine. But the cost savings doesn't seem to be the motivating factor.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Dell has really pushed the prices down on ready-to-run PC systems. Before them it was normally cheaper and better to build your own.

I built an AOpen XCCube PC recently (model 482 IIRC), and it cost me around $1300 for the barebones case + Athlon XP 64 3800+ CPU, 2 Gig memory, 300GB HD, wireless mouse and keyboard, XP Pro SP2 and a 19" LCD monitor. This was one with built in 7.1 sound and component out video on the motherboard.

I'm pretty sure I could've gotten something fancier from Dell for about the same price, but I wanted the small form factor PC. Otherwise, I would probably stick with Dell.

By the way, if anyone is looking to build a HTPC, I can heartily recommend the above barebones system.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

For all the reliability of a TiVo S3 (speculation based on extrapolating the S2 to the S3) and ease of use, there are a few things an S3 TiVo can't do as far as we know...

You can't connect multiple commonly available, competitively priced USB drives for extra storage.

You can't edit video(s)

You can't transcode videos to other formats

You can't store your own DVDs or personal videos for home netwrok access without the help of a(nother) PC.

You can't store or edit your music or photos.

You can't email videos to friends.

You may not be able to connect an S3 to several low cost DMRs for viewing/listening to your content around the house.

You can't surf the web, compose/send/receive email.

You can't access many sources of video downloads, or many other content sources.

You can't balance your checkbook, write a book, play complex video games, run your business, store your data...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> For all the reliability of a TiVo S3 (speculation based on extrapolating the S2 to the S3) and ease of use, there are a few things an S3 TiVo can't do as far as we know...
> 
> You can't connect multiple commonly available, competitively priced USB drives for extra storage.
> 
> ...


and how much of that will you do while the PC is recording two HD streams - or one HD one analog or two analog and streaming a third feed off to a TV upstairs


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> ...compose/send/receive email....


All of the other bullet-points in your list may be true(or not, as we don't actually have shipping S3 units to refer to), but this should be quite possible on an S3. Galleon already supports email reading on S2 units, and it would be trivial (even for me) to write a composition screen to complement the reading screens. It would be slightly less trivial, but still entirely within the realm of reality, to host an email-to-tivo server that people could set their units to connect to over the internet, thus freeing us of the extra PC requirement.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Xab said:


> Well..if you want to have a programmer's discussion I guess your point is valid, but when it comes to the usability of the thing for the end user, and the overall experience, this doesn't matter at all. The fact that it does whatever it does at 6 in the morning has no effects whatsoever on my recordings, alarms, etc., and the box continues to perform quickly and well.
> 
> If you just wanted to make a point for the sake of doing so, then granted, but in the real world it just isn't too pertinent.


Well, when Replay instituted their 48-72 hour reboot protocol (I forget the specific time), many Replay owners were very unhappy.
Now admittedly, it sounds like the MS approach does give the user more control over the process but still.....


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and how much of that will you do while the PC is recording two HD streams - or one HD one analog or two analog and streaming a third feed off to a TV upstairs


Most if not all. Especially with the dual cores.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

what are we paying for? 
Ive been thinking the same thing ever since I heard Tivo was dropping their lifetime subscription.

Ive been drooling over Windows Media Center Edition for a while now. Its easily upgradeable to as much hard drive space as I want (much easier and cheaper than doing it on a Tivo). Dual tuners (HUGE thing to me), and all around faster and more powerful-I could transfer shows off of it WAY faster than from my Tivo. Plus I could even use it to convert video for my Palm or things like that overnight, which obviously Tivo cant do.

So I was already interested in MCE even before this. Now that the Tivo S3 wont have lifetime, Im going to be looking at a computer running Vista as my first choice for a new DVR (though Ill still look at S3s features, and how much it would end up costing, etc.).

Some possible drawbacks to MCE (and Vista later this year):
-Lower quality video out? I havent hooked a PC up to a TV in years, but the last time I did, the image quality was terrible. No where near a dedicated device designed for it, like a Tivo or Gamecube, etc. Not sure if thats been fixed or not.
-Draws more power-my understanding is MCE units have to be running 24/7, just like Tivo. If thats so, then to be a fair comparison, you have to factor in the extra power its drawing-maybe 100-200 watts all the time versus what, 30ish for a Tivo? So SOME of the $12.95 would get paid for just by the power savings on Tivo.

Another annoyance is that I havent really seen a cheapish well designed PC specifically for use as with MCE. HP has one that looks like a stereo component, but its more expensive than comparable PCs (plus Im not sure if you can work inside it like a normal PC). Still, Im more willing to have a standard Dell sitting by my TV if it gets me a cheaper price and more features (more features I WANT that is).


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Most if not all. Especially with the dual cores.


$649 at Dell isn't going to get you dual cores. 

Assuming Joe Sixpack remembers to get the TV Tuner option and hooks it up, I wonder how well it will work when little Johnny cancels the recording of the Sopranos in order to download Cowboy Bebop.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> You must not have a Fry's near you.


Fry's ... one the things I miss most about no longer living in California.


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## TheSlyBear (Dec 26, 2002)

Xab said:


> If you just wanted to make a point for the sake of doing so, then granted, but in the real world it just isn't too pertinent.


Incorrect. It means that you are unable to leave anything open overnight without having to save everything and then set everything up again the next day.

Having to reboot an OS frequently to keep it stable is a sure sign that the OS is a toy.


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## rlc1 (Sep 15, 2003)

I was originally thinking of *possibly* using my Media Center PC as a second Tivo when I bought it about a year-and-a-half ago. It just got to be too much of a pain, though. Since my PC was upstairs and I really didn't want it to go downstairs near the TV, I would have had to buy a $299 access point device (can't remember the name now but you know what I mean). Then I worried what would happen if other people in my house were using the PC while I was watching a recording that was sent through to the TV. Would any other thing that they were doing bog the whole thing down (probably) and affect my viewing of the recording? And what about the times that Windows XP locks up and has to be rebooted, that would certainly interrupt my viewing experience. In the end I decided it just wasn't worth the hassle so I bought a second Tivo, and I haven't regretted the decision.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bootedbear said:


> Incorrect. It means that you are unable to leave anything open overnight without having to save everything and then set everything up again the next day.
> 
> Having to reboot an OS frequently to keep it stable is a sure sign that the OS is a toy.


nice jab bootedbear :up: I always look forward to your Mac related posts


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

rlc1 said:


> I was originally thinking of *possibly* using my Media Center PC as a second Tivo when I bought it about a year-and-a-half ago. It just got to be too much of a pain, though. Since my PC was upstairs and I really didn't want it to go downstanirs near the TV, I would have had to buy a $299 access point device (can't remember the name now but you know what I mean). Then I worried what would happen if other people in my house were using the PC while I was watching a recording that was sent through to the TV. Would any other thing that they were doing bog the whole thing dow (probably) and affect my viewing of the recording? And what about the times that Windows XP locks up and has to be rebooted, that would certainly interrupt my viewing experience. In the end I decided it just wasn't worth the hassle so I bought a second Tivo, and I haven't regretted the decision.


When does XP lock up? I've never once had a crash in 4.5 years of use, except ones caused by hardware issues. I'm hoping the MCE software is as stable as the OS-especially since I would only be using the system as a DVR and for related stuff (possibly as a media server, to download podcasts, encode shows for my Palm, etc.)


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## TheSlyBear (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> nice jab bootedbear :up: I always look forward to your Mac related posts


Wasn't a jab -- just refuting the assertion that having to reboot daily has no effect on the general consumer.

And yes, I use a Mac as well as XP. How does that disqualify my statement?


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

I think what you guys are forgetting is that all of these things cost money. Microsoft is the largest non-oil, company in the US. They can afford to give this to you for free. There purpose is to pull as many customers as they can to them, drive and Tivo out of business. Once Tivo is out of business they can charge you whatever they want because you will less options. So congratulations you are participating in the destruction of a competitive marketplace.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

JYoung said:


> $649 at Dell isn't going to get you dual cores.
> 
> Assuming Joe Sixpack remembers to get the TV Tuner option and hooks it up, I wonder how well it will work when little Johnny cancels the recording of the Sopranos in order to download Cowboy Bebop.


Not sure what kind of S3 $649 will get me. 



seattlewendell said:


> So congratulations you are participating in the destruction of a competitive marketplace.


At least I wish TiVo, Inc. wasn't making it so easy.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

bootedbear said:


> Wasn't a jab -- just refuting the assertion that having to reboot daily has no effect on the general consumer.


If I understood him correctly, it was some kind of background "reboot" that didn't affect running processes. I've got an XP machine holding up one of my monitors, but you'll forgive me if I don't boot it up to investigate further.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

seattlewendell said:


> I think what you guys are forgetting is that all of these things cost money. Microsoft is the largest non-oil, company in the US. They can afford to give this to you for free. There purpose is to pull as many customers as they can to them, drive and Tivo out of business. Once Tivo is out of business they can charge you whatever they want because you will less options. So congratulations you are participating in the destruction of a competitive marketplace.


I've been wondering why no one has sued them over this. They claimed that Explorer was part of the OS, and lost. How can they possibly justify adding DVR capabilities to a computer OS? It seems like a clear case of them using their monopoly power to extend their monopoly into other areas. Which is a no-no. Why aren't the BeyondTV/SageTV set suing their pants off?


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> I've been wondering why no one has sued them over this.


Trouble is, outside of some people who lost their jobs at utility companies, and some anti-monopolists, most people think this stuff is great. You used to have to pay extra to various utility companies for: disk caching, disk optimization, backup, terminal emulation, editing your DOS command lines, extending DOS to 32 bit software, multitasking, a GUI, ... email, browsing... the list goes on and on. Back in the 80s before MS started sucking everything into the OS, any one of the things I mentioned could cost you $50 to $250 (before inflation.) Now it's all built in for about a hundred bucks. You can say monopoly all you want, but most folks are thinking: just give me more stuff for less money and I can ignore the M word. One guy I was talking to just kept saying: "Please monopolize more Miscrosoft."


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Puppy76 said:


> When does XP lock up? I've never once had a crash in 4.5 years of use, except ones caused by hardware issues.


So, what's your longest uptime per http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/PsInfo.html?

WinXP for me is reasonably stable at home (on an Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe based Athlon 64 3200+ at home) and work (old Dell Precision 350 3 ghz P4), but my work machine used to hit BSODs on shutdown randomly. It turned out to be a corrupted registry key related to keyboard layouts.

About a year later, the machine was unbootable after a seemingly succesful install WinXP SP2 went awry so I ended up having to reinstall. It's been otherwise stable other than recently, I notiecd that running CPU-Z (http://www.cpuid.com/cpuz.php) would totally hard hang the machine 100% consistently. I hadn't changed the version of CPU-Z (used to run great) or made any significant changes to the machine other than adding an ancient Matrox Milennium video card to run a 2nd monitor and picking up all the critical updates. So, I don't run CPU-Z anymore.

I also have it running on a laptop (ancient Dell Inspiron 4000 Celeron 800) but it occasionally hits BSODs or has problems waking up from hibernate. It also sometimes has some flakiness w/my associated w/my wireless access point. A reboot fixes that.

I'd hate to see these how these machines would do recording video while I'm surfing the net or doing real work.

None of the machines are overclocked. The Athlon has quality RAM from Corsair and is running off an Antec SmartPower 450 watt PSU. The extra RAM in my Dell laptop is from Crucial.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> frayedend - what if you are an average family and your computer is no where near your TV?
> 
> I know my parents single computer is no where near a TV, and in their vaca home, they don't have a computer and wouldn't want one in the basement, but wouldn't mind a TiVo.


All wireless. You have remote devices that feed signals to the tv that are much smaller than any TiVo. You can stick your pc in a closet hooked up to a satellite box. It is actually a potentially much neater solution upfront for those that want to limit what is in their tv room.

Computers are common place now. Sure setting up an MCE as a DVR is not going to be everyone's cup of tea today or tomorrow. Eventually though, the devices will work together seamlessly and everything will be connected in some way. It is just how things will be. And people will not be paying $13 a month to TiVo for guide data.

I honestly don't know how TiVo gets away with it. I have always chaffed at their fee for what the provide, even when it was $10. I realize a lot of it subsidized the hardware, but I don't like that model. I paid ridiculous sums for my first TiVo and equally ridiculous sums for monthly fees. Now I think I have two lifetime units and 5 directivos active. My monthly fee is what i pay to D* for the DVR and extra rooms. Even with the multi-room discount, I would be looking at $35 a month for essentially guide data. That is insane. I would never do it again. There is just no market for it. TiVo is not going to be able to get away selling something for a very high price that everyone else gives away for essentially nothing. That is why these new pricing options don't strike me as getting the job done. They do not deal with a core problem TiVo has and that is there service fee is too high and not readily justifiable.

I am not sure some people understand the flexibility you can have with an MCE. If you wanted to, you could run 4 or more tuners in the box, and then set up cheap satellites on every tv in your house and they could all watch different programs at the same time or even the same program at the same time at different rates. When you get beyond the 1 tv, 1 TiVo model the MCE foundation is significantly more appealing. Some of us don't just have 1 TiVo. I currently have 12 tuners on TiVos in my house. I would much rather set up a central location where all programs are stored and then distribute them throughout the house with the functionality that each location has its own PVR. That is what an MCE set up will allow you to do.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> You aren't paying TiVo strickly for the guide data, you are paying for the software, the software updates, the stability, and all the bells and whistles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

The longest uptime on any of the computers I manage has probably been a couple of months-because you have to reboot for most patches  

I did have a work XP system, an i815 chipset with a 1Ghz P3 that was HORRENDOUSLY unstable. With 98 it would crash maybe 6 times a day. With XP about once-but it was some piece of hardware-probably a flaky motherboard (it burned out its first CPU even)

I do have Explorer die on my from time to time. Probably at least a couple of times a month (with HEAVY usage) but 99% of the time it just pops back up, and the rest of the time I can just manually reload it. (Plus some flash heavy web pages tend to crash the browser, etc.)

Other than that though, I cant remember having a true crash on XP that wasnt hardware related.

If/when I switch to Vista as my primary DVR, Id plan on using it exclusively for a DVR and related functions. Im not going to be recording two streams, watching another, streaming off a fourth, and then also run Quake 4 on the system or anything silly like that 

Actually thoughfor some of my family members who really dont use computers right (ie they run one program at a time and nothing intense), they probably could just use my theoretical Vista system as their PC, while its doing all the DVR stuff. Kind of toying with converting one of my primary systems into DVR duty and getting a new one if/when the time comes.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Actually, the MCEs work surprising well when mutiltasking. My neighbor has one, and I was skeptical at first, but it seems to work pretty well. Remember that the Tivos are a little under-powered themselves. My Series 1 locks up during menu navigation for 10 seconds once in a while. It remembers all your remote presses during this period, then executes them all in a second. But the video recording seems unaffected during that time. Series 2 was horrible at simple menu navigation until recently -- but that's fixed for now. 

As far as long-term stability, Series 2 Tivos do need to be rebooted occasionally with the latest s/w version, as they don't always record every minute of your scheduled shows. My Series 1 did have to be rebooted once last year as it simply failed to populate the To Do List with anything. Not to mention the hardware reboots needed once in a while because the modem loses its marbles and refuses to make a daily call. Not sure on MCE, but my neighbor leaves it on 24/7 and doesn't have major issues.

Tivo is now trying to aim in BETWEEN the cable DVR and the MCE PC. Offer a little more than basic DVR functionality (i.e. pictures, transfer recordings, limited Internet, etc.), but not as much as a full-blown PC. The price point is tricky. It should be in the middle, maybe leaning a little towards the MCE side. 

Whether or not Tivo will succeed is another issue. As MCE prices drop, Tivo will feel the squeeze. Hence the need to lock people into 3-year contracts. Also, I'm not sure how big the market in the middle is. But we will simply have to wait and see.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

MickeS said:


> So add another $120 or so for the MCE OS, and you're looking at $800. Not sure what the point was, other than that it costs more to build a MCE PC (with the new prices, a TiVo would be subscribed for 5 years for that cost) than it costs to buy a Tivo, and you get more flexibility and options.


How much would it cost for you to add TiVo functionality to a second room?

With his set up it would be $70-$80 forever. Third room same thing. Some how I don't think you are getting a second and third tivo with lifetime service for $70 each.

What if he wants to add a new tuner to his set-up? He can add two more for another $129.00. How much does it cost to add two new tuners to your TiVo set up that is accessible all over the house?

The MCE option is not for everyone, but for those that are capable of setting it up, it is a pretty interesting alternative. It is significantly more flexible than any kind of total house TiVo Solution you could implement, and potentially less expensive.

If you are not PC savvy, or have no interest beyond your TiVo box in your living room, then it is probably not a solution for you right now, but it is a viable alternative for some people now.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Are there any media extenders (besides the X-Box 360) for MCE that are WIRED, not wireless? I could use two or three of those, with my hypothetical Vista-based DVR.

I'm glad to hear people have had success with MCE as a DVR. Glad to know it's an option worth investigating when the time comes.

I agree about Tivo getting kind of squeezed between the cable companies and Microsoft and other PC DVR solutions. Tivo has the advantage of being simpler to set up, but I think most people who would find a PC too complicated would also opt for whatever the cable company gives them, and wouldn't be getting Tivo either. (And I'm probably rare-someone who needs a DVR and dosen't want to pay for cable!)
I'm really not sure where that leaves Tivo, because it seems like PC stuff will only get better and cheaper, so Tivo's space in between those two solutions is only going to shrink.

Back to my hypothetical Vista DVR...I'm thinking of having it replace a family iMac that's in the kitchen now. Could be used for simple stuff there, while it's performing DVR duty. Then, if there's a WIRED media extender, I'd pipe it to the living room and bedrooms (or possibly I could just get a REEEEEALLY long cable  )


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

marksman said:


> How much would it cost for you to add TiVo functionality to a second room?
> 
> With his set up it would be $70-$80 forever. Third room same thing. Some how I don't think you are getting a second and third tivo with lifetime service for $70 each.
> 
> What if he wants to add a new tuner to his set-up? He can add two more for another $129.00. How much does it cost to add two new tuners to your TiVo set up that is accessible all over the house?


I think the new pricing is $224 for each, the first year, and then $6.95/month after that. And they include tuners, so you essentially get a multi-tuner setup. So if you had 1 TiVo and added two more, it would cost you over, say 4 years, $950. That gives you three tuners and multi-room capability (both viewing and recording).

The PC version would cost, with the prices you state, only about $270, and that would be good "forever".

So once again... not sure what the point is. I already wrote that "no monthly fees" is ALWAYS part of the PC argument. In fact, it's normally the only argument.

I'd honestly hate to be the one managing that PC system though. I'm willing to pay more for TiVo, if the system is to be used by anyone else than me.

And about the argument that XP is more stable than other windows, I agree with that. I have hade, I think, one BSOD in the 4.5 years I've used XP. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the applications themselves are anymore stable, just that the OS handles the crashes a lot better. I have applications crash daily, but since I'm sitting right there, no big deal. And when they crash when I'm away, I'm not using them, or they're not critical anyway, so it's not a big deal, because at least the OS doesn't crash.

But if my recorder crashed while I was gone I'd be pissed. And I really have a feeling that it would. No doubt XP would handle the crash OK, and not have to reboot, but what good is that when the application isn't running anymore.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Good point-so how stable IS the MCE stuff? (And does it recover if it did crash.) Obviously the reliability needs to be basically 100%, like Tivo.


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## PhillyGuy (Mar 12, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> I've been wondering why no one has sued them over this. They claimed that Explorer was part of the OS, and lost. How can they possibly justify adding DVR capabilities to a computer OS? It seems like a clear case of them using their monopoly power to extend their monopoly into other areas. Which is a no-no. Why aren't the BeyondTV/SageTV set suing their pants off?


DVR capability is not built into the standard verison of Windows. You have to get a MCE. You pay extra for an additional feature. Microsoft is not forcing anyone to use it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bootedbear said:


> Wasn't a jab -- just refuting the assertion that having to reboot daily has no effect on the general consumer.
> 
> And yes, I use a Mac as well as XP. How does that disqualify my statement?


sorry - you read me all worng. Tried to use the emoticons so you would see I meant the post in a good way. I always find your posts on the mark and was saying so in a half fun way.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

PhillyGuy said:


> DVR capability is not built into the standard verison of Windows. You have to get a MCE. You pay extra for an additional feature. Microsoft is not forcing anyone to use it.


Yes but a lot of the computer makers are including it in a number of home systems. 
(Dell and HP in particular)

While the guide data may not cost $10-12 a month, it does cost MS something. 
I'm assuming that MS has to pay Tribune (or whoever) for the guide data and they have to set up and maintain the infrastructure for the delivery system to your pc. 
And while MS does have deep pockets, I'm not convinced that they would provide it for free indefinitely. 
Be it a monthly fee or annual software update charges.....


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

About that...why wouldn't the data be free? I mean why wouldn't the industry want that data out there as much as possible-create some kind of trade group to kind of subsidize it. It would still cost Microsoft infastructure, but the data SHOULD be free, since presumably companies want you to watch their shows, after investing millions on them...

It would be easy to recoup costs with minimal advertising, I'd think.


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## TheSlyBear (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> sorry - you read me all worng. Tried to use the emoticons so you would see I meant the post in a good way. I always find your posts on the mark and was saying so in a half fun way.


You're right, I did! I'm glad you clarified. Apologoies.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Puppy76 said:


> About that...why wouldn't the data be free? I mean why wouldn't the industry want that data out there as much as possible-create some kind of trade group to kind of subsidize it. It would still cost Microsoft infastructure, but the data SHOULD be free, since presumably companies want you to watch their shows, after investing millions on them...
> 
> It would be easy to recoup costs with minimal advertising, I'd think.


And that's a very good question.. But Tribune has made a pretty good business out of the data NOT being free, and I suspect they would be very protective of that data into the future.

J


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Puppy76 said:


> About that...why wouldn't the data be free? I mean why wouldn't the industry want that data out there as much as possible-create some kind of trade group to kind of subsidize it. It would still cost Microsoft infastructure, but the data SHOULD be free, since presumably companies want you to watch their shows, after investing millions on them...
> 
> It would be easy to recoup costs with minimal advertising, I'd think.


Except that most of the cases I'm aware that would use this type of data are DVRs and the like.
Which people use to skip commercials.
I can't see the broadcasters supporting that any time soon.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lajohn27 said:


> And that's a very good question.. But Tribune has made a pretty good business out of the data NOT being free, and I suspect they would be very protective of that data into the future.
> 
> J


I thought Sage and Myth had a free source of guide data?


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Puppy76 said:


> I mean why wouldn't the industry want that data out there as much as possible-create some kind of trade group to kind of subsidize it. It would still cost Microsoft infastructure, but the data SHOULD be free, since presumably companies want you to watch their shows, after investing millions on them...


Well, the industry is generally pretty afraid of PVRs so far. Right now, they'd probably rather have you turn on CBS at 8:00 and just leave it there all night, commercials and all, so maybe getting the data to your PVR so you can pick and choose and skip the commercials isn't that valuable to them.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I thought Sage and Myth had a free source of guide data?


I thought they scraped it off a web page like Zap2it but I haven't been keeping up.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

dgh said:


> I thought they scraped it off a web page like Zap2it but I haven't been keeping up.


I thought that was the case as well. 
I also believe that every now and then, the formatting of their source will change and the developers will scramble to update the software.


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

I have a question about the Zap2it and other guide data - how does Zap2it make money? What does it cost them to gather & provide the data? It seems to me that they are staying afloat, and are not receiving $12.95 per month. It also seems to me that if they received $300 for a lifetime sub from somebody (or considerably less than that), they would still be okay. 
When I hear about Tivo's subscption/money woes, this is the issue I think about. How is it that Zap2it can basically provide for free what costs Tivo an arm and a leg to get? I understand that Zap2it has no hardware or r&d costs, but I guess I still don't see why Tivo has problems.
Especially since Microsoft now has a very Tivo-esqe box with NO subscription fees at all.

I'm sure others know much more about Zap2it than me, and I'd like to hear about their business model.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Atomike said:


> I have a question about the Zap2it and other guide data - how does Zap2it make money? What does it cost them to gather & provide the data? It seems to me that they are staying afloat, and are not receiving $12.95 per month. It also seems to me that if they received $300 for a lifetime sub from somebody (or considerably less than that), they would still be okay.
> When I hear about Tivo's subscption/money woes, this is the issue I think about. How is it that Zap2it can basically provide for free what costs Tivo an arm and a leg to get? I understand that Zap2it has no hardware or r&d costs, but I guess I still don't see why Tivo has problems.
> Especially since Microsoft now has a very Tivo-esqe box with NO subscription fees at all.
> 
> I'm sure others know much more about Zap2it than me, and I'd like to hear about their business model.


TiVo doesn't have a problem. Their subscription business is highly profitable. The money paid to Tribune per subscriber is almost certainly less than $1.50/mo and may be under $1.00/mo out of a total cost of services of $2.25/mo for FY06.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Atomike said:


> I'm sure others know much more about Zap2it than me, and I'd like to hear about their business model.


Well, after one click on the "about us" link on their main page, I see that they are owned by Tribune Media Services and would be happy to license their data to you just like they do to TiVo.



Zap2It.com said:


> Our clients include: The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, USA Today, Yahoo!, Warner Brothers Entertaindom, Time Warner Cable, DirecTV, DishTV, MovieFone, *TiVo*, WebTV and hundreds of other partners online and in print


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> TiVo doesn't have a problem. Their subscription business is highly profitable. The money paid to Tribune per subscriber is almost certainly less than $1.50/mo and may be under $1.00/mo out of a total cost of services of $2.25/mo for FY06.


Except that once TiVo gets the data from Tribune, they have to crunch and translate it to the format that our TiVos require.
I would assume that there is cost associated with that as well.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Except that once TiVo gets the data from Tribune, they have to crunch and translate it to the format that our TiVos require.
> I would assume that there is cost associated with that as well.


Then I would take a further discount on my estimates of what TiVo pays Tribune to account for costs of reprocessing data.

$1.50 to Tribune & reprocessing costs only leaves $.75 for everything else...servers, calls to customer support/billing, costs for CC billing, bad debts, calls from DTiVo subs who mistakenly call TiVo about some problem, sending Mildred to the bank once a month to deposit the DTV check, and on and on...


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## mec1991 (Nov 5, 2004)

Atomike said:


> I but I guess I still don't see why Tivo has problems.
> Especially since Microsoft now has a very Tivo-esqe box with NO subscription fees at all.


Believe it or not, Microsoft is just a tad larger company than TiVo.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Then I would take a further discount on my estimates of what TiVo pays Tribune to account for costs of reprocessing data.
> 
> $1.50 to Tribune & reprocessing costs only leaves $.75 for everything else...servers, calls to customer support/billing, costs for CC billing, bad debts, calls from DTiVo subs who mistakenly call TiVo about some problem, sending Mildred to the bank once a month to deposit the DTV check, and on and on...


I'm sorry. Where are you getting your numbers and why does that cause TiVo to pay less the data.

BTW, have you factored in the cost of the dial up numbers?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I'm sorry. Where are you getting your numbers and why does that cause TiVo to pay less the data.
> 
> BTW, have you factored in the cost of the dial up numbers?


The numbers come from analyzing TiVo's reported financial data.

With your point, I'd take a reduction because you are adding another cost. Since the total cost is what I can calculate, my guess about Tribune payments can only be a portion of that total. If you bring up other costs, I have to take more from Tribune to keep the whole constant as reported by TiVo.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

BobCamp1 said:


> As far as long-term stability, Series 2 Tivos do need to be rebooted occasionally with the latest s/w version, as they don't always record every minute of your scheduled shows. My Series 1 did have to be rebooted once last year as it simply failed to populate the To Do List with anything. Not to mention the hardware reboots needed once in a while because the modem loses its marbles and refuses to make a daily call. Not sure on MCE, but my neighbor leaves it on 24/7 and doesn't have major issues.


Have him run psuptime and report his results.


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> Believe it or not, Microsoft is just a tad larger company than TiVo.


Duh. Losing money is losing money no matter how big you are. So microsoft is bigger. So what? Is Microsoft's mediacenter division losing money every quarter? Does each LG box sold represent a huge loss to microsoft? If so, why are they selling them. There's no incentive to lose money like with the X-box for which they can sell games.

Did your post have a point?


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

dt_dc said:


> While Microsoft doesn't _charge_ a recurring fee for guide data (and software updates and everything else that gets sent to your box/PC) ... it does _cost_ them to provide it. Some companies (Microsoft) are willing to absorb this cost ... some companies (Tivo) aren't.
> 
> Also, the Microsoft / LG LRM-519 (standalone DVR w/ DVD burner) which uses the Microsoft Program Guide and pulled guide data from the exact same place as MCE PCs ... when it was first introduced they did charge a subscription fee ($249 lifetime, $99.99 yearly, or $9.99 monthly). After a couple months they dropped the sub fees.
> 
> Anyway ... competition is good ... it'll be interesting to see where the market goes ... etc.


That LG LRM-519 *looks* interesting even though it only has a single analog tuner. Does any other DVR/DVD recorder offer a connection through USB for external HD's?


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## russwong (Sep 17, 2002)

I just posted why I turned off my Series 1 and now only have a Series 2 with lifetime and 2 MCE boxes... I didn't go into details about my setups, but this thread looks like a good place to do it.

One of the posts was talking about not being able to get a dual core for $650 bucks. At Dell, you can get a Dual Core with 160G SATA AND a 20" LCD panel for $650 bucks, basically making the PC cost about $250 - $300...

My MCE setup was built on the Dell 400SC, which was only $250 bucks at the time about 2 years ago for a P4 3Ghz HT processor. I added a 6600GT so I can do HD for $150 and 2 - 200G HD for $50 each. Then I purchased a capture card for $50 and an HD card for $150. Oh and some more memory for $50 bucks. So about $750 for 400 gigs analog and HD capable system.

My Xbox360 streams from it with no problem (I'm using wired) and since the xbox is a media extender, I can stream, while the system is recording other things and someone is using the computer still. So you can put the computer in an office and put the xbox next to your TV, if you don't like having a computer next to your TV.

All in all, with the way PC parts continue to decrease in price, it's becoming more and more cost effective to build your own media center. (This includes using products like Sage, BeyondTV, Myth, etc...) Like I said in my other post, I really liked my Tivo, but in the past 5 years, it hasn't grown with me at all.

I'm still keeping my Series 2 with lifetime, but I don't see spending anymore time with it, other then when my 2 other MCE's fail to record something, which (knock on wood) hasn't happened yet.....

I really think if you haven't tried it, you should give it a try, it's not as unstable, and unusable as people may say it is. Is it as good as a Tivo? Not in all aspects, but it's pretty darn close and it does a lot of things my tivo can't do.

Edit: Someone was asking how long it took to build, so they could compare. I don't remember, but I just built a new one for my friend yesterday and it took 2-3 hours, with a majority of the time spent formating the hard drive, letting MCE install itself, and downloading 148 megs of initial updates on DSL.


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## HeatherA (Jan 10, 2002)

Last fall we moved into a new house and have yet to have DTV installed which renders our 3 DTiVos useless at the moment. Our hesitation to have it installed stems from our use of MCE machines.

Both my DH and I have MCE computers with dual tuners and over 200gb devoted to recordings. I also have a laptop with BeyondTV installed as a back up recorder, but that I use mostly to watch shows recorded on my main PC while I work on that PC. I just transfer them across the network and it's ideal for me while I'm working. My PC is also wired across the house, using really long composite cables, to my bedroom TV so that I can watch my MCE recordings in there at night with the kids. That bedroom TV also has an Insight DVR hooked up to it that we use as back up space but hardly watch because it's the worst DVR in the house. Downstairs DH has his MCE system hooked to the big screen in the family room via XBOX 360. The big screen also has our series 2 TiVo attached. That TiVo has almost 300 hours of space so it's kind of our catch all box. Lots of suggestions and fun shows that we don't watch regularly and it's also able to catch shows on digital cable channels we don't pick up on the MCE machines. This is the box the kids (teens) use the most. In the basement we have an ancient series 1 TiVo with no subscription that my son uses to catch his anime shows on the weekends.

It sounds confusing, but it's not really. We only pay fees for the series 2 Tivo and for the cable DVR. I love my TiVo and would be hard pressed to give it up and not have at least one running here. All of our systems offer different features and melding them together has worked for us. My only regret about MCE is that it doesn't do suggestions.  I love being able to easily move, burn, trf, convert the files on my computer and do so daily. I'm never without something to watch on my Ipod  However, the newer features of Tivo are great and the only thing I wish I could do is hard wire that to my network instead of going wireless.

Yes, we're TV obsessed! Once upon a time we had 5 Tivos running in our house!


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## HeatherA (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and lets be real folks - unless you only record CNN overnight or soaps during the day - you are going to want a dedicated box for a DVR


Not true... I currently have 126 shows recorded on my MCE PC and another 34 that I've already transferred to my laptop...and this PC is used for my business as well. I give it a workout 10+ hours a day and it records seamlessly in the background while I multi-task my heart out.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MikeMar said:


> There are basically 4 groups of people
> 
> -Tech people that would just build their own DVR cause they can/want to and enjoy it
> -Regular people who want a DVR, and say, ooo look cable DVR is cheaper, let's get that.
> ...


There is a 5th
-Tech people that would just build their own DVR cause they can/want to but they get TiVo so they don't have another device in the house to maintain when friends and family have trouble with it.

Some issues with MCE machines. 
-Lack of support for cable/satellite boxes. (I don't think the bargain MCE machines have ir blasters.) 
-Some MCE PC's do not come with a remote, so you have to use a mouse. Same goes for MCE upgrades. 
-MCE PC's are vulnerable to common viri. 
-Like any Windows PC it will crash at some point, likely cause is Direct X. (It's the source of many crashes in my household and at work it's usually a system resources issue.
-Did I mention Virus's?
-Expense-Although many people are getting the MCE capabilities as an add-on, for the PC to be a true replacement for a TiVo it has to run stand-alone. I'd never be able to multitask an MCE device and have to wait to reboot it when installing apps because Battlestar Galactica was recording.

For me if I had a PC solution It'd be just a toy for me, to get serious recording done I'll use my TiVo.


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## russwong (Sep 17, 2002)

Your issues with MCE are just false and misguided.
- MCE can work with cable and satellite boxes, just like Tivo does with an IR blaster. If it's the full MCE with capture card, it should have the IR blasters.
- All MCE PC's that have the tuner card come with the remote. I think that's a requirement of Microsoft. If it doesn't have the tuner card, then just the OS is installed, so when you buy the tuner card you would by the MCE package which includes the remote. Or you can just get one for 30 bucks.
- MCE PCs are only vunerable to virus if you want them to be. If you don't download stuff, don't execute files, and if you don't want to use it as a PC, then it wont get a virus. OR you can install antivirus software.... But the difference is, you have the choice. If you want it to be just a dedicated DVR box, you can. If you want to do more, you can. It only needs to get guide data, which you can do with out exposing it to a virus.
- If you don't want to reboot, then don't install apps, but at least you have the options to install apps.

Your making the fact that an MCE is a PCs out to be a short coming, when in fact it's actually a benefit, because these aren't even options on Tivo. You want to compare apples to apples, then compare standalone MCE that you don't use as a PC to standalone Tivo. Then add the fact that you have the option to do more IF you want, but you don't have to.

And like I said, if it's for my parents who don't know how to use a computer, then I'd still go with Tivo, but my parents are even getting savy enough to use a PC.



Stormspace said:


> Some issues with MCE machines.
> -Lack of support for cable/satellite boxes. (I don't think the bargain MCE machines have ir blasters.)
> -Some MCE PC's do not come with a remote, so you have to use a mouse. Same goes for MCE upgrades.
> -MCE PC's are vulnerable to common viri.
> ...


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Stormspace said:


> Some issues with MCE machines.
> [ ... ]


They also consume more power. Running an Intel or AMD CPU (that can run MCE), more memory (again, to run MCE), a PCI bus, tuner card, etc. uses more power than the equivalent TiVo. Depending on the machine, probably at least two to four times more power. It's been shown that a TiVo uses about $8 to $10 of electricity per month, so the idea that an MCE machine saves you money over TiVo is just plain false. You can pay TiVo or you can pay the power company. Since the TiVo service isn't particularly destructive to the environment, I'm giving TiVo the edge on this one.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Tivo is an appliance that records tv. MCE is Windows no matter who makes the computer. MCE is not at nor will ever be at appliance reliability level. Not that is couldn't be but I don't think Microsoft is interested. Something like a future version of a Moxi box will be serious competition to Tivo and have appliance like reliability. ( They are pretty close to that now) Remember appliances are devices that anyone can use.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> They also consume more power. Running an Intel or AMD CPU (that can run MCE), more memory (again, to run MCE), a PCI bus, tuner card, etc. uses more power than the equivalent TiVo. Depending on the machine, probably at least two to four times more power. It's been shown that a TiVo uses about $8 to $10 of electricity per month, so the idea that an MCE machine saves you money over TiVo is just plain false. You can pay TiVo or you can pay the power company. Since the TiVo service isn't particularly destructive to the environment, I'm giving TiVo the edge on this one.


Good point. That's scary that an S2 uses that much power-and it's only drawing what, 26 watts? What's Series 3 going to use? Presumably it'll still be cheaper to run than most PCs though.


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## Scarpad (Dec 7, 2000)

But you cannot record HD Stuff with MCE if it's 5C enabled, so no Sub movie channels recording


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

What does "5c" mean? Some kind of digital rights restriction?


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## russwong (Sep 17, 2002)

But that's where your logic is flawed. There is no "equivalent" Tivo. If you really wanted to cripple a PC down to Tivo's hardware levels (and in case you didn't know, Tivo is a PC, it has a CPU, memory, hard drive, a bus, and OS...) then compare apples to apples, these PC based DVR products can run on as low as 600Mhz with 256 megs of ram. Which are low powered machines. As a matter of fact, lots of people are using laptops as their media center.

People seem to forget that you have options and I consider having those options as pluses not negatives. If you want a single tuner, analog only, 80gig device that only did recordings, you could do that with these software DVR products. But the plus side is, if you want to do more, you can!



ChuckyBox said:


> They also consume more power. Running an Intel or AMD CPU (that can run MCE), more memory (again, to run MCE), a PCI bus, tuner card, etc. uses more power than the equivalent TiVo.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

russwong said:


> But that's where your logic is flawed. There is no "equivalent" Tivo.


You're the one that suggested the "either/or" scenario mentioned above. Either use the PC as a dedicated DVR device, or use additional PC features and accept that there will be more downtime. If it is a dedicated device, then the "equivalent" to a TiVo is a Wintel box with a single analog tuner card.



> If you really wanted to cripple a PC down to Tivo's hardware levels (and in case you didn't know, Tivo is a PC, it has a CPU, memory, hard drive, a bus, and OS...) then compare apples to apples, these PC based DVR products can run on as low as 600Mhz with 256 megs of ram. Which are low powered machines.


And yet they still consume more power than a TiVo.



> As a matter of fact, lots of people are using laptops as their media center.


That makes no sense at all. Why pay the laptop premium for a box that's going to sit in the media cabinet it's whole life? And laptops notoriously run hot, once you stick a tuner in the thing and leave it closed -- yet always running -- it's lifetime is going to be very short. And if you use it for other functions, you're always dragging a coax cable around behind it, and you have to make sure the frickin' thing never goes to sleep. A laptop seems like the worst possible solution for doing a DVR.


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## russwong (Sep 17, 2002)

If you aren't willing to openly think about these capabilities, you will never understand. Very similar to the debate I had over 5 years ago about how great Tivo is to people who would say, why would I use that instead of a VCR. They had the same closed minded attitude about Tivo then. A VCR only uses $2 a year in power, why would I use a Tivo that uses so much more, requires a phone line, and I can't change tapes when I want to, blah blah blah...

For those of you who are interested, IF you want, you can use a low end desktop or even a laptop to do such things. Even a brand new laptop from Dell with media center on it for around $700 or $800. Or a desktop for under $400 can do it as well. It's all about options and having choices. If you are too caught up on the fact that it's a laptop, so you can't connect a cable to it, well then get a desktop. But it's clear you are too close minded.... just like the nay-sayers of Tivo 5 years ago....

As a side note, I never said there is more downtime when using additional PC features. Instead, I said my media center is also my webserver, email server, and kitchen computer. It's up 24x7 and I have had no stability issues with it so far. I did say that your arguement of a PC being exposed to virus isn't valid, because getting a virus is a user issue and a matter of safe computing, but that concept seems to have confused you.

While your mindset is stuck, I've been recording HD for over a year now, have virtually unlimited storage capacity, have multi-tuners, can EASILY move files around my network, can burn the files to dvd, can stream to my xbox and xbox360 anywhere in my house. Oh yeah, it's a computer to, so I can do computer stuff if I wanted to...

Don't get me wrong, I've always liked Tivo, I just wish they would have progressed with my needs. I got tired of waiting for a dual tuner tivo, then I got tired of waiting for an HD Tivo, so I found an alternative and it's pretty damn good. Yes MCE 2004 was crappy, but MCE 2005 with xbox360 is pretty damn good. I can't wait to see what the next version has to offer and I know it's coming out at the end of the year/early 2007. We can all talk **** about Microsoft and how we hate them, but I'd have to say, they eventually get it right.

Anyways, I'm done trying to help you see there are options. Some people just don't want to hear it or accept it.... (flash back to me talking about Tivo 5 years ago).



ChuckyBox said:


> You're the one that suggested the "either/or" scenario mentioned above. Either use the PC as a dedicated DVR device, or use additional PC features and accept that there will be more downtime. If it is a dedicated device, then the "equivalent" to a TiVo is a Wintel box with a single analog tuner card.
> 
> And yet they still consume more power than a TiVo.
> 
> That makes no sense at all. Why pay the laptop premium for a box that's going to sit in the media cabinet it's whole life? And laptops notoriously run hot, once you stick a tuner in the thing and leave it closed -- yet always running -- it's lifetime is going to be very short. And if you use it for other functions, you're always dragging a coax cable around behind it, and you have to make sure the frickin' thing never goes to sleep. A laptop seems like the worst possible solution for doing a DVR.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

russwong said:


> Your issues with MCE are just false and misguided.
> .


My knowledge of MCE is admittedly from secondhand sources like trade publications and the news, but I believe I covered myself in my statements when I wasn't certain about something.



russwong said:


> - MCE can work with cable and satellite boxes, just like Tivo does with an IR blaster. If it's the full MCE with capture card, it should have the IR blasters.
> - All MCE PC's that have the tuner card come with the remote. I think that's a requirement of Microsoft. If it doesn't have the tuner card, then just the OS is installed, so when you buy the tuner card you would by the MCE package which includes the remote. Or you can just get one for 30 bucks.


Yes, but what if it isn't a full MCE with capture card? Why would you buy a remote for 30 dollars if it was included. Seems to be a contradiction. 



russwong said:


> - MCE PCs are only vunerable to virus if you want them to be. If you don't download stuff, don't execute files, and if you don't want to use it as a PC, then it wont get a virus.


This is simply not true. There are many well documented exploits that do not require the PC to do anything to become infected. In fact there are virus' that will attack any PC on the local network, so even if you have an MCE PC as a stand alone box, it still has the potential for being exposed to a virus if other machines are being used on the network. Any mistake in usage could result in an exposure and it only takes one time. Perhaps one or two people in a household could manage this well, but to expect everyone with a DVR to maintain that kinda of vigilence just to record TV is a little extreme. MCE devices ARE NOT as reliable overall, even if one person working real hard and being careful can make ONE as stable as a stand-alone DVR.



russwong said:


> OR you can install antivirus software.... But the difference is, you have the choice. If you want it to be just a dedicated DVR box, you can. If you want to do more, you can. It only needs to get guide data, which you can do with out exposing it to a virus.
> - If you don't want to reboot, then don't install apps, but at least you have the options to install apps.


Windows PC's crash, reboot during automated updates, and reboot spontaneously when an application crashes or resources run low.



russwong said:


> Your making the fact that an MCE is a PCs out to be a short coming, when in fact it's actually a benefit, because these aren't even options on Tivo. You want to compare apples to apples, then compare standalone MCE that you don't use as a PC to standalone Tivo. Then add the fact that you have the option to do more IF you want, but you don't have to.


That's because an MCE PC has those shortcomings. Sure it also has benefits, but the fact remains that for recording TV, MCE can't beat a stand-alone DVR in reliability.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

russwong said:


> If you aren't willing to openly think about these capabilities, you will never understand. Very similar to the debate I had over 5 years ago about how great Tivo is to people who would say, why would I use that instead of a VCR. They had the same closed minded attitude about Tivo then. A VCR only uses $2 a year in power, why would I use a Tivo that uses so much more, requires a phone line, and I can't change tapes when I want to, blah blah blah...
> 
> For those of you who are interested, IF you want, you can use a low end desktop or even a laptop to do such things. Even a brand new laptop from Dell with media center on it for around $700 or $800. Or a desktop for under $400 can do it as well. It's all about options and having choices. If you are too caught up on the fact that it's a laptop, so you can't connect a cable to it, well then get a desktop. But it's clear you are too close minded.... just like the nay-sayers of Tivo 5 years ago....
> 
> ...


Russ, 
All that people are saying is that while MCE has some obvious advantages over TiVo and other DVRs, it can also have some disadvantages that can make the solution, as a whole, undesirable for certain needs of certain users. That's not being close-minded, it's being rational. You yourself admit that your S2 TiVo is still the last-resort backup for your setup. It's great that you haven't missed anything yet with the MCE rigs, but you've acknowledged that you know you can count on the TiVo while you're still knocking on wood about the MCE boxes.

I personally can see situations where I'd love to have a MCE machine, but I already have two TiVos, and to get the fullest use of a MCE box(and if I'm going that route, _I want_ it all), I'd need to invest in all the hardware, software, and accessories necessary for HD, Multi-room viewing, etc (as well as an HD tv). For me, it'll be a few years before I can justify all those expenses for entertainment, especially when there _still_ isn't enough HD I'm interested in watching to make me interested in a new tv(my projected largest expense). Hopefully a few more years will change that as well.


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## russwong (Sep 17, 2002)

Absolutely fair. It's just frustrating to see people dismiss something because they don't understand or have misguided information. I seriously feel like I've time warped back to over 5 years ago when I was so thrilled about my new fangled tivo and people were dismissing it so easily. 

Stormspace: Yes you are correct a dedicated DVR box is more stable then a PC and I understand that and accept that. But, the magnitude of the proporated instability, risk, inconvenience is greatly exaggereated in my eyes. Your Tivo updates it self and reboots itself when it needs to. My tivo has crashed when I used it. Tivo hard drives fail, components fail. 

I have 2 Tivos - Series 1 and Series 2 and 2 MCEs. I've used the MCEs long enough that I turned off the Series 1 for good. I'm keeping the Series 2 because it's got lifetime and it's another analog tuner.

So for you early adopters of Tivo, like me, you might want to take a look for yourself and not get sucked into this jaded hype.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

russwong said:


> Stormspace: Yes you are correct a dedicated DVR box is more stable then a PC and I understand that and accept that. But, the magnitude of the proporated instability, risk, inconvenience is greatly exaggereated in my eyes. Your Tivo updates it self and reboots itself when it needs to. My tivo has crashed when I used it. Tivo hard drives fail, components fail.


Cool. One thing to note though. When my TiVo reboots it does so when nothing is recording. ONly on two occasions in the past year has my TiVo rebooted unexpectedly, while my other PC's have rebooted at least once a month as MS drops updates onto the OS. In the latter case the reboot comes at any time, even when the PC is in use but with an option to stop it if a user is present to cancel the restart.

OTOH. I love the idea that MCE represents, I really do. But it's a solution for me and me only. My family would never go for it as it would require more knowledge to use, even if that meant knowing to press the reset button when the machine freezes.


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