# "Inventing the DVR was just a warmup"



## dig_duggler

Already being discussed in the "Premiere" thread, but this invitation to an event March 2nd seems much more boastful than a reduced cost box. App store? New software? A new way forward for Tivo? Speculate away.

Just seemed worthy of it's own thread


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## kevinwill1

Oh my goodness, hopefully they will make some kind of grand announcement. If we've had to wait all this long just to have them officially show and announce the "slightly updated" looking box we've seen the set up manual for, TiVo is going to disappoint a great many people. Here's hoping for something that blows us all away...


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## DancnDude

A headline like that is bound to make a lot of people disappointed. I hope I'm wrong and the announcement is really exciting but I'm prepared to be a little let down.

Here's hoping for at least a new HD user interface.


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## innocentfreak

yeah I am trying to not get excited. It could be just the new directv dvr for all we know. I definitely agree with that wordage they need to come strong.


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## ZeoTiVo

TiVo will finally do my laundry 

other than that I hold comment until March 2nd


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## bschuler2007

March 2nd? I think they pulled the upgrade offer and stopped resupplying stock way to early.


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## lew

bschuler2007 said:


> March 2nd? I think they pulled the upgrade offer and stopped resupplying stock way to early.


Probably the only way to limit the number of returns under tivo's 30 day return policy. Likely the unit will have a larger hard drive.


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## wildcardd

Sling type functionality? Think that might be possible?


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## Krandor

wildcardd said:


> Sling type functionality? Think that might be possible?


They would have to be careful not to violate sling patents.


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## kas25

Hulu(and more internet based content) and ability to play your tivo content on mobile phones.


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## Sapphire

kas25 said:


> Hulu(and more internet based content) and *ability to play your tivo content on mobile phones.*


You can do that already with TiVo desktop or 3rd party utilities such as kmttg.

If it's streaming content from TiVo DVRs, I'm sure that wireless carriers will simply LOVE that...not.

As for Hulu, not likely to happen. It's not Hulu's decision, it's the content providers decision. Maybe if/when fee based Hulu becomes reality but not right now.


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## anthonymoody

Whatever it is, this does indeed set an _extremely _high bar. I have to hope that they're market-aware enough to know that:

1) Staying away from CES in order to preserve focus
2) Using language like this

...means that they can't simply roll out a directv box and a cheaper cc model.

LOVE the notion of slinging to mobiles (iPad anyone?)

I'm also interested in much more robust guts. The UI is slowish, and newer features don't have that snappy TiVo experience.

Beyond that, slip in a blu ray drive and call it a day


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## Philmatic

About freaking time...

MoCA, 4 Tuners, Tru2Way, Unified NP, Tuner Teaming, New Interface, Now Hardware (To power new software)...

or bust


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## nirisahn

Philmatic said:


> About freaking time...
> 
> MoCA, 4 Tuners, Tru2Way, Unified NP, Tuner Teaming, New Interface, Now Hardware (To power new software)...
> 
> or bust


This. And an offer to transfer lifetime subs for a reasonable fee (say $99). For that I would absolutely upgrade my S2DT.


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## MickeS

Yeah, this will end well... 

Maybe it's NOT a new DVR at all? Maybe it's some sort of online "on demand" video delivery service a la Hulu? That's the future anyway.


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## dig_duggler

Does anyone know the last time Tivo had an event like this (if ever)? Very apple-ish of them.


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## innocentfreak

I just hope Tivo doesnt make a mistake and not have product available immediately.


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## mec1991

dig_duggler said:


> Very apple-ish of them.


So true...

I just hope it's not going to disappoint me like Steve's "big ass iPod Touch" did recently. 

I still do not understand what the iPad is for and I have suffered from Apple lust for about 15 years now.


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## wmcbrine

It'll turn out to be just a scooter.


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## socrplyr

I actually expect to see at least 3 of the following (some of which might be the same).
1. 802.11n device - has been around for long enough to get released
2. Tivo Premier - One of three items: DirecTivo, S4, or Best Buy Tivo
3. DirecTivo - It has got to be done sometime soon, I would expect.
4. New software including GUI - ~1.5? years from last update, a big one should be coming.
5. Best Buy Tivo - How long does it take to create a new box?

Obviously, all of those are opinions. However, I feel that they are not pie in the sky, like a lot of suggestions. These are all based on things that Tivo has announced is coming or has let slip (FCC/Manual). The final one being the software update. I find it very hard to believe they are done with the TivoHD/XL when it comes to updating software. My bet is instead of incremental updates they put all those on hold for a large one. Maybe that one is wishful thinking, but hey I'm hoping for a little more responsive interface.


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## oosik77

No it will be ultra cool since I just got an XL box with lifetime subscription!


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## djwilso

It sounds exciting and all, but unless my original Series3 blows up and catches fire, I will not be an early adopter this time around. $800, screwed out of lifetime service, etc. No thanks.

I'll wait at least a year before even thinking about getting a new TiVo.


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## AbMagFab

1) Tivo software embedded into Best Buy Insignia TVs
2) New HD UI with video downloads more prominent, and easier to find
3) Integrated Find Programs that cuts across cable, internet, TivoCast, etc.

I wouldn't expect anything more. The "revolutionary" stuff is the direct integration into TVs and the continued expansion of IP-based TV.

Would be awesome if they added Tivo-to-Tivo streaming instead of/in addition to copying.

Don't expect any more media-from-PC streaming improvements/enhancements.


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## CuriousMark

AbMagFab said:


> Don't expect any more media-from-PC streaming mprovements/enhancements.


But wouldn't direct music playback from iTunes with cover-flow be the cat's meow?


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## kas25

CuriousMark said:


> But wouldn't direct music playback from iTunes with cover-flow be the cat's meow?


That's an apple tv so it wouldn't be very groundbreaking.


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## solutionsetc

mec1991 said:


> So true...
> 
> I just hope it's not going to disappoint me like Steve's "big ass iPod Touch" did recently.
> 
> I still do not understand what the iPad is for and I have suffered from Apple lust for about 15 years now.


Not meaning to thread-jack, but I am afraid you missed it; hard to believe you're an Apple aficionado. The iPad is for anyone needing a computing appliance and doesn't want/need to lug around a laptop. This could be sales folk, doctors, nurses, lawyers, delivery folks, service personnel anyone that needs a clipboard sized device to read, record, and communicate textual and graphical information.

Yes you can do most of this on an iPhone now, but it is slow and just a wee bit clumsy. The iPad experience is pretty amazing in comparison.


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## Lazlo123

AbMagFab said:


> 1)
> 3) Integrated Find Programs that cuts across cable, internet, TivoCast, etc.


Doesn't Tivo Search already do this?


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## MediaLivingRoom

be bold TiVo!!!!

Make it more than Series 4.


Do something others are not doing well. Make us believe again!!! Don't be a follower, break new ground. shake-up the DVR business.


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## johnny99

Access to free internet services like Hulu, Slacker, Pandora, Boxee

How about some internet services at the same time you are watching TV, like a split screen with your TV show on top and stock tickers or Twitter updates below.


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## aaronwt

A slimmer box with one CC slot and a larger hard drive. If they did this and added a third or fourth tuner I think a lot of people would be happy.


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## innocentfreak

has tivo put anything out there or has the only info come from the invite? if just the invite, I am curious how tivo will word the announcement. the wording may not mean much if it just an attempt to make sure the invited come out.


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## ellinj

Things I'd like to see, but will never happen.

1. Switch to Mpeg4
2. Ability to Stream rather then the slow MRV system we have now
3. Built in Moca networking
4. Fast CPU
5. Hulu and MLB
6. Manual QAM Mapping


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## aaronwt

With the current MRV I can already watch the HD content in faster than realtime when transferring. Although I wish you could start watching it with MRV before the programm finished recording.


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## SMWinnie

dig_duggler said:


> Already being discussed in the "Premiere" thread, but this invitation to an event March 2nd seems much more boastful than a reduced cost box. App store? New software? A new way forward for Tivo? Speculate away.
> 
> Just seemed worthy of it's own thread


Hmm...I wonder. Why Rockefeller Center for the announcement?

Announcement in NYC suggests content to me rather than hardware.


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## AbMagFab

SMWinnie said:


> Hmm...I wonder. Why Rockefeller Center for the announcement?
> 
> Announcement in NYC suggests content to me rather than hardware.


Yup... maybe all NBC content and/or Comcast content available and searchable on-demand?

It would be cool if Tivo could pioneer getting all major broadcast/cable nets to make their content searchable, season-passable, wishlistable, on-demand, on-line, and fully integrated with my Tivo.

I wonder if TivoShannon leaving/let go has some relation to this?


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## ZeoTiVo

solutionsetc said:


> Yes you can do most of this on an iPhone now, but it is slow and just a wee bit clumsy. The iPad experience is pretty amazing in comparison.


the iPad is not even out yet, so how can you know what the experience* will be. So I guess this is pretty much like all the speculation over what TiVo will say march 2nd.


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## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> A slimmer box with one CC slot and a larger hard drive. If they did this and added a third or fourth tuner I think a lot of people would be happy.


I would buy 2 immediately but would still like to see faster transfers also.


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## fatlard

http://tekgek.com/?p=11138


> A tipster writes in with knowledge of some of the improvements TiVo may be making to its devices. The most important: *a move to full HD menus, improved search, and the phasing out of Series 2 hardware*. Because the company stopped making improvements to the current software as of the middle of last year, our source believes that aside from minor add-ons like Blockbuster support the old UI and OS will be replaced by a fully HD version, available at first on Series 3 hardware.
> He describes the move as something akin to Microsoft's redesign of the Xbox Dashboard - a surface refresh that plays better with larger, HD TVs. *This could also include new methods for adding apps and content to existing boxes.*
> There is obviously some talk of the TiVo Premiere coming with ATSC and cable card support. This, also, is still a rumor.
> Our hope is this: new, cheaper hardware that supports HD recording and that can work without a cable card. (Tru2Way maybe?) Thanks to content providers, that may be a big fat pipe dream, but TiVo has a deep hole to climb out of, especially with the move towards cable-company DVRs even if those DVRs are far inferior to TiVo's interface. TiVo made it big in a world without competitors and now they have many. Unless they can outfox those competitors, they're sunk.


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## MickeS

I kinda wish they don't care about updating the Series 3 units anymore as far as functionality and software goes.

As nice as it has been for me to have a Series 2 now that does a LOT more than when I bought it 7 years ago, and a Series 3 that does plenty more than when I bought that 3 years ago, it has not really made much sense to me that TiVo keeps updating the existing units to the degree they do.

Where's the incentive for me to buy a "Series 4" if the majority of the functionality will be made available to me in my Series 3?


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## Kablemodem

I will not buy a TiVoPad.


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## janry

Kablemodem said:


> I will not buy a TiVoPad.


TiVoPad? That sounds cool.


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## socrplyr

MickeS said:


> I kinda wish they don't care about updating the Series 3 units anymore as far as functionality and software goes.
> 
> As nice as it has been for me to have a Series 2 now that does a LOT more than when I bought it 7 years ago, and a Series 3 that does plenty more than when I bought that 3 years ago, it has not really made much sense to me that TiVo keeps updating the existing units to the degree they do.
> 
> Where's the incentive for me to buy a "Series 4" if the majority of the functionality will be made available to me in my Series 3?


I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments, however, Tivo has chosen to make their money off subscriptions, not boxes. Thus, they don't give a crap what box you have, just as long as you are happy enough to keep paying the subscription cost. Obviously this falls off with PLS, but I don't really know what fraction of boxes have PLS.


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## solutionsetc

ZeoTiVo said:


> the iPad is not even out yet, so how can you know what the experience* will be.


Maybe because I have seen the SDK and know what is possible and of course it is not difficult to imagine the larger screen, 802.11n, and a significantly more robust CPU on top of an iPhone. Not to mention the best deal in the country on a mobile data plan.


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## lvthunder

My guess would be some sort of Media Server with enough horse power to stream to multiple TiVo's at the same time coupled with new software for the S3 boxes. That way when TiVo software gets integrated into a TV they don't need a spinning hard drive they just need some flash memory.


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## BigJimOutlaw

Ok, the pieces are coming together. An ambitious product name (Tivo Premiere), a very Apple-like invitation that's designed to hype, and a press event held at Rockefeller Plaza of all places.

This is a lot of noise for just a cost-cutting model. Whatever they're doing, they're doing it big for a reason. Wouldn't be surprising if there were a couple of different announcements (content and hardware).

Kudos to them for making people take notice today. I've been saying for a while Tivo should do something unexpected to disrupt the DVR market and make people take notice of them again. (Think other market disrupting products like ipod, iphone, Wii, etc.) People should WANT a Tivo, and they should finally change the perception that a cable DVR is "good enough." One can only hope.

As for the product itself... I think it's very likely to have an improved CPU. The question is whether it's 2009 new or 2010 new, because Broadcom is shipping 2010 CPUs that are total nerd porn, and significantly improve and advance the box's capabilities.


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## GoldenTiger

solutionsetc said:


> Not meaning to thread-jack, but I am afraid you missed it; hard to believe you're an Apple aficionado. The iPad is for anyone needing a computing appliance and doesn't want/need to lug around a laptop. This could be sales folk, doctors, nurses, lawyers, delivery folks, service personnel&#8230; anyone that needs a clipboard sized device to read, record, and communicate textual and graphical information.
> 
> Yes&#8230; you can do most of this on an iPhone now, but it is slow and just a wee bit clumsy. The iPad experience is pretty amazing in comparison.


That's what tablet pc's have been for, for many years. Or netbooks: they work even better. As far as the announcement, it would have to be insanely good for me to not just get a Ceton quad-tuner single-CableCARD adapter for my PC once they come out and sell off my Tivo... my 3-year subscription is ending in a couple of months, so it would be more economical and feature-rich to use Win7 MC with that card instead of my 1.5tb (1.25 usable) upgraded TivoHD in that case. A $99 lifetime offer might entice me to buy that and then give it to my mother, but Tivo has probably lost me after all these years as a customer.

My chief complaints with current tivo's that I wish they'd fix with the new ones:

Multiple hard drives officially supported, 2x internal at minimum.

Ability to stream to PC's or other rooms, not transfer/copy slowly.

Slow menu interface nowadays (just not very snappy).

Low-rez menu interface for my 84" projector setup.

Subscription fee ($13 a month, even $8 a month with the 3-year, is kind of up there considering Win7 MC being a strong offering now and a large investment for one unit) needs to be for a household, not just one tivo with multiroom discounts.

Triple-or-quad tuner capability would be a must


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## MediaLivingRoom

TiVo is going to built a Windows version themselves, that is why nero stopped selling there own in Dec 31, 2009. TiVo will build a new ecosystem with coop programming and gigabit networking.


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## innocentfreak

MediaLivingRoom said:


> TiVo is going to built a Windows version themselves, that is why nero stopped selling there own in Dec 31, 2009. TiVo will build a new ecosystem with coop programming and gigabit networking.


As much as I love Windows 7 MC, if Tivo did it correctly and also was able to support the Ceton tuners I might be convinced to go for it. It would have to have a lifetime service option though.


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## mec1991

solutionsetc said:


> Not meaning to thread-jack, but I am afraid you missed it; hard to believe you're an Apple aficionado.


No problem.

It's just that I already have an iPhone, an iPod Touch, and a Macbook Pro. To me it just seems redundant but hopefully others will need/want it.


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## defucius

mec1991 said:


> No problem.
> 
> It's just that I already have an iPhone, an iPod Touch, and a Macbook Pro. To me it just seems redundant but hopefully others will need/want it.


I totally agree. I have a mac pro, ipod touch, macbook pro. And I totally do not see the need for an iPad, especially that I am limited to the app store for anything I want to do. If it provided a general computing environment like the macbook air, it would be a different story.


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## aaronwt

I've avoided owning Apple products for decades. The iPad might be the first Apple product that I purchase.


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## dig_duggler

I'm derailing my own thread but - if you have an iPhone and a laptop (especially an apple one) I don't think you are Apple's target audience for an iPad (ignoring the people that will buy one just b/c it's apple or are genuinely intrigued by it. The book reader aspect has me interested, but the library is always free ). IMHO the device will take off for people like you (and me) when developers figure out how to make something uber compelling for it. I'm with you - I see no need. But I see where the market could be and think it is _foolish_ to underestimate Apple with regards to product launches. Been awhile since they had a stinker.

Think of it this way - someone could get an iPad and a 3G plan and have internet _everywhere_ for lightweight things (browsing, email. see: parents) for a very, very cheap price (this data plan is a great rate, nothing really compares). No more home internet. For many, this is all they want. Yes it's locked down, yes there's no flash, but there is a pretty good market for that. No tiny screen, no contract.


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## Johncv

solutionsetc said:


> Not meaning to thread-jack, but I am afraid you missed it; hard to believe you're an Apple aficionado. The iPad is for anyone needing a computing appliance and doesn't want/need to lug around a laptop. This could be sales folk, doctors, nurses, lawyers, delivery folks, service personnel&#8230; anyone that needs a clipboard sized device to read, record, and communicate textual and graphical information.
> 
> Yes&#8230; you can do most of this on an iPhone now, but it is slow and just a wee bit clumsy. The iPad experience is pretty amazing in comparison.


The SDK show iSight and handwriting support. Job did not demonstrate everything that the iPad could probably do.


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## Brainiac 5

dig_duggler said:


> ... think it is _foolish_ to underestimate Apple with regards to product launches. Been awhile since they had a stinker.


Well, it's been three years since Apple TV came out and didn't exactly set the world on fire. I guess it's in the eye of the beholder as to whether that was a "stinker" and whether three years is a while.

(I'm not saying the iPad won't do well - I think it's interesting and it's far too early to predict how it will do.)


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## qlafferty

Based on the language I am assuming they are bringing something new to the table. They mention 'Inventing the DVR' which makes me think that they are announcing something new that they have 'invented'. 

Personally, I would like to see a new form of interactive TV. Something we have never seen before. I mean really thinking outside of the box. 

I am multi-monitor user on the computer and I am starting to think that there should be more than one screen for my TV content. I hate PIP and split screens. I would rather have an additional screen for more content.

How about hooking an LCD monitor as a secondary screen that has a cool user interface showing active content related to the current program. You could do some pretty amazing stuff with sports using a setup like that. For non-sports content maybe some form of Wikipedia content for the show with actor info too. Social media content from your friends related to the show?

Of course I guess you could do all of that with an iPad like device, but then it would only be visible to a small number of people in the room.

Just a thought.


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## solutionsetc

Consider those not all that comfortable in putting their entire business on a laptop when traveling. When I am on the road, I need a VNC client, email, net access, and contact and schedule info (and perhaps some entertainment). A one and a half pound package with 10 hrs of battery life that fits in one hand sounds pretty attractive to me.

True&#8230; if you NEED a laptop this isn't for you. But there will be millions of people this will be the perfect traveler for, and millions more who need no more computer than this.


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## MickeS

Please, there are iPad threads in "Happy Hour" already.


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## innocentfreak

I am still wondering if the wording of the announcement is more to hook the people that got invites to try and get as much press there as possible. Since this wasn't TiVo putting it out there technically to the public, I think if their announcement isn't mind blowing or as impressive as "inventing the DVR" they get somewhat of a pass. It feels almost like your standard invite to try and get attendees. 

Now if TiVo had released a press release that on March 2nd, 2010 with this kind of wording, this would fall more on them like the previous reference to the Segway. 

It just feels like the opening line to the presentation.


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## johndix

socrplyr said:


> I actually expect to see at least 3 of the following (some of which might be the same).
> 1. 802.11n device - has been around for long enough to get released
> 2. Tivo Premier - One of three items: DirecTivo, S4, or Best Buy Tivo
> 3. DirecTivo - It has got to be done sometime soon, I would expect.
> 4. New software including GUI - ~1.5? years from last update, a big one should be coming.
> 5. Best Buy Tivo - How long does it take to create a new box?
> 
> Obviously, all of those are opinions. However, I feel that they are not pie in the sky, like a lot of suggestions. These are all based on things that Tivo has announced is coming or has let slip (FCC/Manual). The final one being the software update. I find it very hard to believe they are done with the TivoHD/XL when it comes to updating software. My bet is instead of incremental updates they put all those on hold for a large one. Maybe that one is wishful thinking, but hey I'm hoping for a little more responsive interface.


Whatever it is, I hope it has a better quality than the XL. I bought a new one last July, needed a replacement in January and am now waiting for a replacement to the replacement. Hard Disc problems in both cases.


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## nrc

I'm kind of surprised that TiVo would set the bar so high in the invite. The fact that the announcment is in NY is intriguing and I agree that sounds like content.

The funny thing is that many here already had it as a certain that there was nothing more than a cost reduced HD coming (never bought that myself). Anything more would have been a pleasant surprise. Now this invite is going to be hard to live up to.

Should we go ahead and start a "disappointed" thread now.


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## mattack

djwilso said:


> It sounds exciting and all, but unless my original Series3 blows up and catches fire, I will not be an early adopter this time around. $800, screwed out of lifetime service, etc. No thanks.


Sorry, but how were you "screwed" out of lifetime service?

Don't get me wrong, I feel somewhat the same way as you do after paying about $850 total for a S3 including lifetime. (I think the $450-ish I paid for a TivoHD including lifetime is perfectly reasonable.)

But since no lifetime was available at the S3's introduction, I didn't get one... I *did* bite the hook when the lifetime transfer offer came around (and that's where I feel suckered, since I should have waited for the TivoHD one so I could do TWO transfers and saved about $400).. Though like I always say, I *do* like the screen on front of the S3. It's not worth $400 though. (and of course the mandatory *two* cablecards rather than 1 M card is another ding against the S3)


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## mattack

AbMagFab said:


> Don't expect any more media-from-PC streaming improvements/enhancements.


Do you really mean downloading rather than streaming in this part?

Maybe we'll get the "muxed MPEG2" thing to speed up transfer times.. Like others (was it Australia?) already have.


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## DancnDude

innocentfreak said:


> I am still wondering if the wording of the announcement is more to hook the people that got invites to try and get as much press there as possible. Since this wasn't TiVo putting it out there technically to the public, I think if their announcement isn't mind blowing or as impressive as "inventing the DVR" they get somewhat of a pass. It feels almost like your standard invite to try and get attendees.
> 
> Now if TiVo had released a press release that on March 2nd, 2010 with this kind of wording, this would fall more on them like the previous reference to the Segway.
> 
> It just feels like the opening line to the presentation.


I somewhat disagree. The press are the ones invited to this event. Of course TiVo expects that the press will pass this on to their readers/viewers. The wording is meant to create a big pre-event buzz, to get everybody excited about the conference.

They get no passes. They just need to deliver on their strong wording and it will be a big success. Otherwise there will be a lot of disappointment.


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## innocentfreak

Yeah I agree. I am just trying to convince myself otherwise so when the announcement isn't mind blowing I won't be disappointed.


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## magnus

I think it's going to be a big partnership to bring a free Tivo to the masses. I think it's going to be more than inventing.... it's going to be revolutionizing the DVR by bringing the Tivo to every household in some for or fashion.

Either free service (full of ads) or paid service (no ads/maybe even commercial skip).


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## Generic

Although I don't think this is the announcement, I would like to see the implementation of the cable VOD with Seachange that was in a press release last year. I don't know how much I would use it but I would like that option.

http://www.schange.com/News/TiVo,-SeaChange-Team-Up-to-Integrate-Cable-VOD-Off.aspx


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## TWinbrook46636

DancnDude said:


> A headline like that is bound to make a lot of people disappointed. I hope I'm wrong and the announcement is really exciting but I'm prepared to be a little let down.
> 
> Here's hoping for at least a new HD user interface.


I sure hope it's not "Inventing the DVR was just the beginning... now we have invented a new way for you to track what advertisements your customers are watching!"

Hopefully it's new hardware with better performance, HD menu, triple tuners, etc. If they do that I'll buy at least two plus lifetime.


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## DocNo

ZeoTiVo said:


> the iPad is not even out yet, so how can you know what the experience* will be. So I guess this is pretty much like all the speculation over what TiVo will say march 2nd.


Unlike Tivo's faceless announcement, the iPad has been announced and there is hours of hands-on video of it in action on the 'net if you care to find it. Not that I think Apple has shown all they have up their sleeve - not by a long shot. In the end, all the speculation and prognostication won't amount to a hill of beans - it will be what it is when it does ship.

Tivo had better have something compelling or when my subs run out, I'm done. Moving on to Media center. The hardware will be about 30% more expensive, but I will be able to put as much storage as I want and media center extenders aren't restricted to stupid copy protection flags. Leave it to incompetent content providers to continually screw up the user experience 

If it is a new deal with DirecTV, I just hope the pricing is compatible with comcrap - I would love to drop them like a hot potato...


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## DocNo

fatlard said:


> http://tekgek.com/?p=11138


If they upgrade the S3 software and make it any slower than it is now, I'm also done. I was thrilled when I first got my S3, the UI was as responsive as the first Tivo I got with it's first software. Laggy UI bugs the hell out of me and will be my chief driver for leaving them - give me a way to opt out and stay where I am!


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## Chris Gerhard

I saw the teaser ad and came here to read speculation since I don't have a guess as to what is coming. I still don't but I agree whatever it is will be a disappointment to many. For me, I am happy with TiVoHD and OTA and hope for some new and better internet downloading options but know that can't be anything worthy of this hype by itself.

Chris


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## innocentfreak

According to this EngadgetHD post, the new UI is supposed to be as quick as the old Series 2. It is also rumored to have a Qwerty remote.



> Other fixes that should have the faithful drooling are a capacity meter for add-on drives and Tivo Desktop enhancements including "Sling-esque" features.


This also leads me to believe we may see a capacity meter for the new TiVo also for those who want it. Then again with TiVo you never know.


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## Ziggy86

New UI? Do you think the series 3 and Tivo HD will get this too if it is true?


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## schwinn

I saw that post too, and this one (linked from the Engadget post):

http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/02/1...ements-include-ui-revamp-and-full-hd-support/

Faster hardware? That would be nice...
More Plugins/Addons? Even better... Hulu would be wonderful!

These upgrades might make me return the TivoHD I just bought and get that device instead...


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## Flyinace2000

Question:
My current TivoHD is about to activate a lifetime activation on 2/17. If i want to get this new box can i transfer it to that hardware?


----------



## Flyinace2000

My Answer!

Click here to see the special conditions for transferring Product Lifetime Service.

You can transfer Product Lifetime Service to another DVR only if:

* You activated the DVR with Product Lifetime Service less than 30 days ago.
* The DVR was exchanged under warranty, either through the retailer or the manufacturer.
* The DVR was activated under an incorrect service number.


----------



## blacknoi

Flyinace2000 said:


> My Answer!
> 
> Click here to see the special conditions for transferring Product Lifetime Service.
> 
> You can transfer Product Lifetime Service to another DVR only if:
> 
> * You activated the DVR with Product Lifetime Service less than 30 days ago.
> * The DVR was exchanged under warranty, either through the retailer or the manufacturer.
> * The DVR was activated under an incorrect service number.


Or until they start a new promotion (like they did with the series 3) "transfer your existing lifetime to the new unit for the price of ONLY 199" ...or whatever they might decide to offer


----------



## gastrof

magnus said:


> I think it's going to be a big partnership to bring a free Tivo to the masses. I think it's going to be more than inventing.... it's going to be revolutionizing the DVR by bringing the Tivo to every household in some for or fashion.
> 
> Either free service (full of ads) or paid service (no ads/maybe even commercial skip).


And how would "paid service" be different from how things are now?

I don't quite get what you mean.


----------



## janry

magnus said:


> I think it's going to be a big partnership to bring a free Tivo to the masses. I think it's going to be more than inventing.... it's going to be revolutionizing the DVR by bringing the Tivo to every household in some for or fashion.
> 
> Either free service (full of ads) or paid service (no ads/maybe even commercial skip).


Maybe it's part of the stimulus package.


----------



## Revolutionary

This is going to be Hulu plus additional online content enhancements, plus the HD UI. And based on the Engadget piece, I'd guess that Tivo is going to leverage the zeitgeist obsession with "apps" to rebrand its Video-on-Demand and home network features as Apps. Which means we will officially be unable to escape the word.

I'd bet a hundy on Hulu -- when Tivo does NYC announcements, they are about content and software (like the KidZone announcement a few years back). Top of the Rock means NBC, and NBC means Hulu. Forget Comcast -- that deal hasn't been approved yet, so this won't be Comcast related. My guess is that Tivo scored Hulu on-device exclusivity for a time. The real question is whether Hulu will cost extra (like Rhapsody and One True Media), or will it be gratis with the Tivo subscription (remember, Hulu is moving to a subscription model).

Of course, I'd probably also take the downside and bet a hundy that I'm wrong...


----------



## MickeS

TWinbrook46636 said:


> I sure hope it's not "Inventing the DVR was just the beginning... now we have invented a new way for you to track what advertisements your customers are watching!"


This is actually more what I expect from TiVo... anything REALLY new or inventive is a bonus.


----------



## Brainiac 5

Revolutionary said:


> I'd bet a hundy on Hulu


If that's it, I just hope it doesn't have the problems that many people have seen with Rhapsody and Netflix.


----------



## AbMagFab

"Inventing the DVR was just the beginning.., perfecting is what comes next..."


----------



## innocentfreak

on my phone so csnt link, but engadgethd has a new article up about some new tivo patents.


----------



## myyours

I'll buy whatever they introduce as long as the words "no more cablecards" or "100&#37; fool-proof cablecard support" are included somewhere.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

1. TiVo will just have a TiVo server farm that will record every channel and every hour in the USA all converted to H.264 standard and HD.
2. Then the TiVo Series 4 (CableCard required) will just be a networked version only.
3. TiVo Series 4 can download any TV hour or hours based on your ZIP code and Cable Provider on your CableCard from TiVo.com as On-Demand, but with all the local commercials to keep the cable providers from complaining.
4. TiVo.com will play back all shows based on the same requirement from item 3.


----------



## MikeAndrews

kas25 said:


> Hulu(and more internet based content) and ability to play your tivo content on mobile phones.


Yeppers. This is gonna be it.

More (ALL!) online content.

And I will like!


----------



## AbMagFab

MediaLivingRoom said:


> 1. TiVo will just have a TiVo server farm that will record every channel and every hour in the USA all converted to H.264 standard and HD.
> 2. Then the TiVo Series 4 (CableCard required) will just be a networked version only.
> 3. TiVo Series 4 can download any TV hour or hours based on your ZIP code and Cable Provider on your CableCard from TiVo.com as On-Demand, but with all the local commercials to keep the cable providers from complaining.
> 4. TiVo.com will play back all shows based on the same requirement from item 3.


Awesome... except didn't Cablevision get prohibited from doing almost exactly this, a couple years ago?

And I don't trust any provider to do this well enough. I want my content in my house.


----------



## MikeAndrews

nrc said:


> ...Should we go ahead and start a "disappointed" thread now.


Yep. Per the usual "yeah-but-almost" disappointment we always get from TiVo.. it WILL be Hulu - and Hulu only - about 3 months before Comcast tears through Hulu like Godzilla tears through Tokyo to destroy Hulu forever.


----------



## bschuler2007

WebTV 2.0.. cuz WebTV 1.0 was such an astrounding success.


----------



## dylanemcgregor

Revolutionary said:


> I'd bet a hundy on Hulu -- when Tivo does NYC announcements, they are about content and software (like the KidZone announcement a few years back). Top of the Rock means NBC, and NBC means Hulu. Forget Comcast -- that deal hasn't been approved yet, so this won't be Comcast related. My guess is that Tivo scored Hulu on-device exclusivity for a time. The real question is whether Hulu will cost extra (like Rhapsody and One True Media), or will it be gratis with the Tivo subscription (remember, Hulu is moving to a subscription model).


Hulu's NY offices are about 15 blocks south of "The Rock" but not _quite_ as impressive.


----------



## janry

Breaking news: They will put a clock on the front of the box.


----------



## kas25

janry said:


> Breaking news: They will put a clock on the front of the box.


and caller ID!


----------



## janry

From the Engadget patent write-up:



> ...The basic idea of the patent is to use embedded meta data in TV broadcasts, primarily the closed caption text, to create "event identification data" that makes the DVR -- when synced up against related data online -- smarter about the content. Example uses include overlaying interactive ads from the content provider, creating "tagged" video files for viewing on a portable device, extracting tagged clips, or even "sharing" segments with other TiVo users.


Could this information be used to automatically adjust starting times when a program doesn't start on time due to a previous program running late, or to extend the recording time when a sporting event runs longer than the scheduled time?


----------



## SCSIRAID

kas25 said:


> and caller ID!


On Screen caller ID would be nice.


----------



## MikeAndrews

You don't suppose the word "Crackle" could have anything to do with it?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

janry said:


> From the Engadget patent write-up:
> 
> Could this information be used to automatically adjust starting times when a program doesn't start on time due to a previous program running late, or to extend the recording time when a sporting event runs longer than the scheduled time?


yes indeedy


----------



## magnus

There would be no advertisements whatsoever. I already said that so I'm not sure why you did not get the meaning. This would satisfy those that really hate the commercials.



gastrof said:


> And how would "paid service" be different from how things are now?
> 
> I don't quite get what you mean.


----------



## DancnDude

janry said:


> Breaking news: They will put a clock on the front of the box.


Ummm the Series 3 TiVos from 3 years ago did that. And displayed the shows that are currently recording. The HD models don't, but this would not really be all that new.


----------



## blacknoi

SCSIRAID said:


> On Screen caller ID would be nice.


But the tivo premier doesn't have a rj11 jack right?


----------



## janry

DancnDude said:


> Ummm the Series 3 TiVos from 3 years ago did that. And displayed the shows that are currently recording. The HD models don't, but this would not really be all that new.


I was just being sarcastic.


----------



## petew

janry said:


> From the Engadget patent write-up:
> 
> Could this information be used to automatically adjust starting times when a program doesn't start on time due to a previous program running late, or to extend the recording time when a sporting event runs longer than the scheduled time?


A system to transmit the ID of the currently airing program was implemented in the UK 10-15 years ago. At the time Tivo declined to support it. IIRC correctly it's easy to use if the program being recorded is extended, but the logic of how to handle conflicts when a scheduled program is delayed is more complex and in the UK system Tivo had to tune to the channel to be able to read the program data, so couldn't check other channels while a program was being recorded.


----------



## janry

AbMagFab said:


> Awesome... except didn't Cablevision get prohibited from doing almost exactly this, a couple years ago?


I believe that ruling was overturned late last year.


----------



## SCSIRAID

blacknoi said:


> But the tivo premier doesn't have a rj11 jack right?


Oops.... Details details...


----------



## PaulS

janry said:


> I believe that ruling was overturned late last year.


Yup. Cablevision is trying to roll out their RS-DVR stuff after the original ruling was overturned last year.


----------



## refried

janry said:


> Breaking news: They will put a clock on the front of the box.


That's the feature I miss most from my Series 2 Humax DVD recorder.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

blacknoi said:


> But the tivo premier doesn't have a rj11 jack right?


Maybe the TiVo Premiere XXL will.


----------



## angelobanjo

magnus said:


> There would be no advertisements whatsoever. I already said that so I'm not sure why you did not get the meaning. This would satisfy those that really hate the commercials.





> Originally Posted by gastrof View Post
> And how would "paid service" be different from how things are now?
> 
> I don't quite get what you mean.


The fact that they are ALREADY double-dipping might rule this out. You think they are really going to go for making _less_ money?! I can't imagine Tivo working something out with the content providers so that we can do away completely by paying a monthly subscription without any advertising whatsoever.

Nice to dream though...


----------



## walkingdogs

solutionsetc said:


> Not meaning to thread-jack, but I am afraid you missed it; hard to believe you're an Apple aficionado. The iPad is for anyone needing a computing appliance and doesn't want/need to lug around a laptop. This could be sales folk, doctors, nurses, lawyers, delivery folks, service personnel anyone that needs a clipboard sized device to read, record, and communicate textual and graphical information.
> 
> Yes you can do most of this on an iPhone now, but it is slow and just a wee bit clumsy. The iPad experience is pretty amazing in comparison.


The only way those people are going to be able to use the ipad for those purposes is if they get or have apps provided through the appstore since you can't install 3rd party apps any other way. The hospitals I've worked at all use windows based applications that wouldn't work on the OS api. The ipad also can't connect to printers which would be crucial for nurses or doctors to be able to do. Apple has/will never cater to the business world and don't begin to think that the ipad will change that. The business world is Microsoft's territory with some Linux/unix used for specialized purposes. The ipad is a big iphone and not a laptop replacement. It would need codec support, multitasking, flash support, external storage options, peripheral ability, and the ability to install your own purchased apps to be able to do half of the things a laptop, netbook, or tablet can.


----------



## solutionsetc

walkingdogs said:


> The only way those people are going to be able to use the ipad for those purposes is if they get or have apps provided through the appstore since you can't install 3rd party apps any other way.


Tell that to enterprise using their own custom applications on iPhone.



> Apple has/will never cater to the business world and don't begin to think that the ipad will change that.


Why not? The iPhone has... and there seems to be enough interest to warrant an enterprise tier for iPhone devs.


----------



## Wil

walkingdogs said:


> The ipad is a big iphone and not a laptop replacement. It would need codec support, multitasking, flash support, external storage options, peripheral ability, and the ability to install your own purchased apps to be able to do half of the things a laptop, netbook, or tablet can.


Nice walk down Memory Lane. The iPad is clearly not a 1980s/90s appliance.

Whether it well-serves any personal and/or business needs of the 2010's is something we'll know in a couple of years.


----------



## rmsilver7

My needs are basic, I would like to see the ability to plugin any external eSATA hard drive into the unit without having to rip it apart to get it to work, or buy an "official" one unless I think I am going to need support. 

VOD would be nice, but whatever. I wouldn't mind seeing the quad recording option, but that I doubt is going to happen. I would like to see the price be under $299 for anything, I think the HD XL for $499 is insane.


----------



## Johncv

Revolutionary said:


> This is going to be Hulu plus additional online content enhancements, plus the HD UI. And based on the Engadget piece, I'd guess that Tivo is going to leverage the zeitgeist obsession with "apps" to rebrand its Video-on-Demand and home network features as Apps. Which means we will officially be unable to escape the word.
> 
> I'd bet a hundy on Hulu -- when Tivo does NYC announcements, they are about content and software (like the KidZone announcement a few years back). Top of the Rock means NBC, and NBC means Hulu. Forget Comcast -- that deal hasn't been approved yet, so this won't be Comcast related. My guess is that Tivo scored Hulu on-device exclusivity for a time. The real question is whether Hulu will cost extra (like Rhapsody and One True Media), or will it be gratis with the Tivo subscription (remember, Hulu is moving to a subscription model).
> 
> Of course, I'd probably also take the downside and bet a hundy that I'm wrong...


Top of the Rock means NBC?  Please explain. Why would this NOT involve Comcast, they are attempting to buy Universal/NBC (as you say pending approval). As long as were speculating how about a deal between TiVo and Comcast, where Comcast changes all their cable boxes to TiVo boxes.  Now that would be game changer.


----------



## MickeS

Johncv said:


> Top of the Rock means NBC?  Please explain.


"The Rock" = Rockefeller Center = NBC headquarters.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

NBC is buying TiVo, so by proxy Comcast will own TiVo. Then Jack Donaghy will run TiVo as CEO of East Coast Television and Microwave Oven Programming for TiVo. by the way, he worked the day shift at a graveyard, and the graveyard shift at a Days Inn during his youth.


----------



## stmckin

I saw a leak earlier today that said :
-HD interface update 
-qwerty device
-comcast rollout

if they dont get the first two out the door.... sometime soon someone is going to make a big dent like MS turning on HD internet TV in Media Center or something


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

TiVo HD-Pad


----------



## walkingdogs

Wil said:


> Nice walk down Memory Lane. The iPad is clearly not a 1980s/90s appliance.
> 
> Whether it well-serves any personal and/or business needs of the 2010's is something we'll know in a couple of years.


I didn't realize multitasking was something not expected in the 2010's. This isn't the era of windows 3.1. I also didn't realize that not supporting one of the web's most used multimedia standards was so yesterday. It sucks that I can't take the memory card out of my digital camera and import the pictures to the ipad and then email the pictures off to friends or upload them to an online service. Want to watch a DVD, oops, can't do that. Already own a piece of software for Mac, damn, again can't use it. Sorry if I expect to do what I want with a $500 minimum device and not what a company tells me. You apple supporters are irrational in your beliefs that whatever apple tells me is the way it's going to be and I should just march to the beat of that drum. This is why apple will NEVER have a majority market share in the business world. Businesses dictate what Microsoft does and not the other way around and this is why they are successful. And for integrating into any enterprise in any major fashion requires Active Directory integration, ability to access network resources and a multitude of other things that the ipad won't be able to do.


----------



## Wil

walkingdogs said:


> Sorry if I expect to do what I want with a $500 minimum device and not what a company tells me


Agreed. I think it sucks when you buy a refrigerator and it doesn't broil a turkey.


----------



## walkingdogs

Wil said:


> Agreed. I think it sucks when you buy a refrigerator and it doesn't broil a turkey.


No it would suck if I bought an oven and it ONLY broiled a turkey. At least come up with a good analogy.


----------



## stmckin

walkingdogs said:


> No it would suck if I bought an oven and it ONLY broiled a turkey. At least come up with a good analogy.


lol EXACTLY


----------



## Wil

walkingdogs said:


> Sorry if I expect to do what I want with a $500 minimum device and not what a company tells me.


sic


----------



## billboard_NE

oosik77 said:


> No it will be ultra cool since I just got an XL box with lifetime subscription!


Plus one, I upgraded my SII to a dual tuner SII, just in time for FIOS to kill clear broadcast channels on their cable turning my TIVO back to a single tuner. OK so I live with that for a couple of years and just about two months ago I upgraded to a HD and added a 1TB external drive.

So here comes the best Tivo ever that I will need to wait a few years before I upgrade again.


----------



## aaronwt

SCSIRAID said:


> On Screen caller ID would be nice.


Wouldn't you then need a phone line connected to the TiVo for CID? Why would I connect a phone line to a TiVo?


----------



## SCSIRAID

aaronwt said:


> Wouldn't you then need a phone line connected to the TiVo for CID? Why would I connect a phone line to a TiVo?


for onscreeen callerid?  Sounds like its moot anyway...


----------



## mattack

DocNo said:


> If they upgrade the S3 software and make it any slower than it is now, I'm also done. I was thrilled when I first got my S3, the UI was as responsive as the first Tivo I got with it's first software. Laggy UI bugs the hell out of me and will be my chief driver for leaving them - give me a way to opt out and stay where I am!


I only use my S3 & TivoHD for their TV recording/playback capabilities (i.e. none of the networked stuff, yet).

Could you explain what is laggy there?

I guess I'm comparing it to a S1, where in most cases the S3 & TivoHD are WAY FASTER.
(UNfortunately, in many specific ways, like folders populating while using them, that speed made the UI *much* less polished.. But in this case, I'm gladly giving up the polish for the speed.)


----------



## zalusky

SCSIRAID said:


> for onscreeen callerid?  Sounds like its moot anyway...


How about the iPhone transmitting it's callerID info via Wifi to the Tivo and displaying that for those people cutting the cord.


----------



## mattack

walkingdogs said:


> The ipad also can't connect to printers which would be crucial for nurses or doctors to be able to do.


Buzz wrong false.. (at least based upon the precedent of the iPhone)

I have printed from an iPhone to a networked printer. The free "Coupons" app does it, for one example.



walkingdogs said:


> and the ability to install your own purchased apps to be able to do half of the things a laptop, netbook, or tablet can.


You do realize the iPhone/iPod touch *ALREADY* have the capability for institutions to download apps FROM PLACES OTHER THAN THE APP STORE, right?


----------



## AllYourBase

blacknoi said:


> But the tivo premier doesn't have a rj11 jack right?


The premiere has an optional USB modem.


----------



## Brainiac 5

walkingdogs said:


> I didn't realize multitasking was something not expected in the 2010's. This isn't the era of windows 3.1.


In fact, Windows 3.1 _had_ multitasking...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

walkingdogs said:


> I didn't realize multitasking was something not expected in the 2010's. .


well yeah, I mean look at how there is a rehash of the Apple iPad anouncement while at the same time speculating on the TiVo march 2nd anouncement. Multitasking is the only way


----------



## tootal2

Brainiac 5 said:


> In fact, Windows 3.1 _had_ multitasking...


yep, and it also ran on top of dos. i miss dos


----------



## Leon WIlkinson

All TiVos will be tied into a master "to do list" so all tuners would be used when setting up a recording 

All your TiVos recording will be shown on all now playing lists the none native recordings would be highlight/marked, and would be streamed directly for viewing.

Plus, TiVo will be able to auto-transfer shows from a low space unit, to a unit 
with more space on it.


----------



## DBLClick

All in one media set top box replacement. Four tuners, MoCA with Tru2Way would be awesome box.


----------



## jcthorne

SMWinnie said:


> Hmm...I wonder. Why Rockefeller Center for the announcement?
> 
> Announcement in NYC suggests content to me rather than hardware.


Yep. Rockefeller center IS NBC. Comcast/NBC/Tivo and control of your tv....

Its going to be a large expansion of direct access content combining Comcast VOD services and NBC content presented on a new streamlined Tivo.

I think those that are looking for upgraded hardware are going to be dissapointed here.


----------



## MikeAndrews

walkingdogs said:


> ... I also didn't realize that not supporting one of the web's most used multimedia *standards* was so yesterday...












You keep using this word. 
I do not think it means what you think it means.


----------



## Revolutionary

For the love of God, can we *please* not inject an argument about the freaking iPad into every thread on this forum?


----------



## Revolutionary

jcthorne said:


> Yep. Rockefeller center IS NBC. Comcast/NBC/Tivo and control of your tv....
> 
> Its going to be a large expansion of direct access content combining Comcast VOD services and NBC content presented on a new streamlined Tivo.
> 
> I think those that are looking for upgraded hardware are going to be dissapointed here.


Comcast will not be involved if NBC is involved, and the location suggest NBC will (but we could just be wrong about that). That deal is pending anti-trust approval. It wouldn't look good to regulators for Comcast to be participating in content deals with NBC and a third party at this point.


----------



## dig_duggler

I agree that the placing of this makes the NBC thing look very possible, which makes me think a Hulu integration is highly possible. Something like that would bring Hulu to the TV for the average consumer (yes, you can hook up a computer but there is a small segment willing to do that) and that kind of would be game changing. Perhaps a nominal subscription fee, and you get access to all of Hulu's content. Hulu's head honchos have been wanting to charge for it's use, and this is a good way forward for them. OTA + Hulu? No cable required. I could see selling this as the next step in TV entertainment if you couple in a few other announcements. Nothing groundbreaking per se, but a realistic way forward. After all the headaches the cable companies have given them over cable cards, this would seem as good a workaround as any.


----------



## stmckin

dig_duggler said:


> I agree that the placing of this makes the NBC thing look very possible, which makes me think a Hulu integration is highly possible. Something like that would bring Hulu to the TV for the average consumer (yes, you can hook up a computer but there is a small segment willing to do that) and that kind of would be game changing. Perhaps a nominal subscription fee, and you get access to all of Hulu's content. Hulu's head honchos have been wanting to charge for it's use, and this is a good way forward for them. OTA + Hulu? No cable required. I could see selling this as the next step in TV entertainment if you couple in a few other announcements. Nothing groundbreaking per se, but a realistic way forward. After all the headaches the cable companies have given them over cable cards, this would seem as good a workaround as any.


I agree... but, OTA is slowly getting exterminated, so network / traditional cable content content will ultimately get delivered via a monetized pipe (like always) .... Tivo should be making the step to be a comprehensive pipe like Uverse if they were smart


----------



## generaltso

How do we know it's not on Alcatraz island. Isn't that also "The Rock"?


----------



## parzec

I didn't think it was "true" Multitasking, but rather task switching. But I could be confusing it with a previous version.... Nevertheless, my Amiga 1000 was true multitasking environment and out years before Microsoft stole the Windows idea from Mac and before Gates even gave multitasking a second thought. 

But this makes me think that Tivo is unfortunately analogous to Amiga in that both were better than anything else on the market and ahead of their time, but for some reason were not able to achieve widespread acceptance by the consumer. I just hope Tivo won't take the same path...


----------



## MikeAndrews

dig_duggler said:


> I agree that the placing of this makes the NBC thing look very possible, which makes me think a Hulu integration is highly possible. Something like that would bring Hulu to the TV for the average consumer (yes, you can hook up a computer but there is a small segment willing to do that) and that kind of would be game changing. Perhaps a nominal subscription fee, and you get access to all of Hulu's content. Hulu's head honchos have been wanting to charge for it's use, and this is a good way forward for them. OTA + Hulu? No cable required. I could see selling this as the next step in TV entertainment if you couple in a few other announcements. Nothing groundbreaking per se, but a realistic way forward. After all the headaches the cable companies have given them over cable cards, this would seem as good a workaround as any.


The cablecos are going to stomp their widdle feet about the end around that would be. Watch for them to threaten the carriage of NBC/Universal cable channels.

And I still say Comcast will put a pay/cable subscriber wall on Hulu.

There are and will be more streaming sites like Hulu (Crackle!), so that will limit the power of the cablecos, too, if TiVo signs with more than one.

*The long tail is coming!*

Think about the vast library. Crackle has the 10-20 year old narrow-cast Brilliant But Cancelled shows. There are a tons of those around that are too narrow interest for TV land or The U. And the BBC has already announced(made?) ALL old content to be available online, I guess for the UK only for now.

I'd have a ball discovering all the one season and gone series I missed, like, NBC did run "Brilliant But Cancelled" and I LOVED "Action." I watched and enjoyed all Journeyman on the TiVo after it was gone. How many poster have we had who are watching series on DVD a year later?

Gonna be great!


----------



## sdzc

All I gotta say is that it better be in the $99-$149 range for me to get excited. With the switch to all digital and Comcast's BS fees for cablecards or additional outlets or digital fees, there is no way I can either:

1) Pay too much to replace 4 SD Tivo's with new Tivo's
2) Pay too much to get Comcast's crap DVR's that no one seems to like.


----------



## Brainiac 5

parzec said:


> Nevertheless, my Amiga 1000 was true multitasking environment and out years before Microsoft stole the Windows idea from Mac and before Gates even gave multitasking a second thought.


Well, don't forget that before Microsoft stole the idea from Apple, Apple stole the idea from Xerox.



> But this makes me think that Tivo is unfortunately analogous to Amiga in that both were better than anything else on the market and ahead of their time, but for some reason were not able to achieve widespread acceptance by the consumer. I just hope Tivo won't take the same path...


Yes, the TiVo situation does seem to be a bit like the Amiga - I hope too that it won't share the same fate.


----------



## nrc

sdzc said:


> All I gotta say is that it better be in the $99-$149 range for me to get excited. With the switch to all digital and Comcast's BS fees for cablecards or additional outlets or digital fees, there is no way I can either:
> 
> 1) Pay too much to replace 4 SD Tivo's with new Tivo's
> 2) Pay too much to get Comcast's crap DVR's that no one seems to like.


You are very likely to be disappointed. There's just no profit in that price point for a piece of gear that needs a hard drive, multiple tuners, and enough horsepower to drive an HD interface smoothly. I expect that TiVo will keep their bottom end unit around the $200 mark and top end under $500. Maybe if TiVo offers some kind of extender that could come in under $150, otherwise I think you're out of luck.


----------



## reubanks

parzec said:


> Nevertheless, my Amiga 1000 was true multitasking environment and out years before Microsoft stole the Windows idea from Mac and before Gates even gave multitasking a second thought.


Microsoft first introduced Windows in November 1985
The Amiga 1000 was introduced on July 24, 1985 
The first Macintosh was introduced on January 24, 1984

Somehow I find it difficult to call four months "years", but to each his own.

(and of course this was because Commodore stole the Atari crew to design the new Commodores and Ol' Jack left Commodore and bought Atari.) The pedigree of these computers gets really muddy at times. Don't even get me started on the NeXT cube or BeOS... Hmm, maybe I'll go download Haiku.

Randy


----------



## TWinbrook46636

Brainiac 5 said:


> Well, don't forget that before Microsoft stole the idea from Apple, Apple stole the idea from Xerox.


Apple _bought_ it from Xerox in a stock deal. Xerox had no interest in what that division was working on and was glad to see it go. The thought that anyone would use something called a "mouse" was absurd to them. Their loss. Microsoft on the other hand actually _stole_ the Mac OS when Apple foolishly lent them prototype Macs to use in creating Microsoft applications for it. Of course these days Apple and Microsoft just buy up smaller companies and assimilate them.

I would love to see Flash die off. It is the most overused non-standard on the web. Any time I have problems with Firefox it's due to Flash. I wouldn't mind seeing it as an optional install with an on/off toggle on the iPhone and iPad but there are better ways to do a website. Multitasking? The more apps you run the slower it will be. A computer can handle it but you don't really want that on a smartphone. Maybe to a limited extent for things that are not processor intensive.

How did we get on the subject of the iPad? Oh yeah. Because of the hype leading up to its launch and the inevitable letdown. Creating a lot of hype can be a big mistake if you don't deliver. Sometimes that hype is created by the media or rumor sites as with the iPad. TiVo did not say anything about CES but we were all expecting new hardware thanks to the TiVo Premiere leak and seeing as how they went through the time and expense of actually being there. Look what that got us. An announcement on how advertisers can exploit the platform. Yippee! This time around they are actually creating hype with their "Inventing the DVR was only the beginning" invite. The more hype surrounding a new product the more people will assume it will fulfill _all_ their needs. Everyone seems to have a particular pet peeve with the iPad be it lack of Flash, screen resolution, etc. The same will be true for the next TiVo if that's even what the plan to announce. Inventing the DVR was only the beginning? This must be huge! Surely it will have at least 3 tuners maybe more. Tru2way is a definite. This is going to be incredible! Right?


----------



## jmemmott

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Apple _bought_ it from Xerox in a stock deal. Xerox had no interest in what that division was working on and was glad to see it go. The thought that anyone would use something called a "mouse" was absurd to them. Their loss. Microsoft on the other hand actually _stole_ the Mac OS when Apple foolishly lent them prototype Macs to use in creating Microsoft applications for it. Of course these days Apple and Microsoft just buy up smaller companies and assimilate them.


And Digital Research had GEM (Graphical Environment Manager) which was was demoed at the November 1983 COMDEX as an application environment and released as an OS in 1985. Since I was there, I know that it was written by engineers who had left Xerox PARC bringing the concept of a GUI/WIMP with them. Xerox did not patent the work and perhaps could not have done so since many of the innovations such as the mouse-driven cursors and multiple windows date back to earlier work at SRI under the "Augmenting Human Intellect" project.

GEM still made Apple so unhappy that it resulted in a lawsuit that only managed to remove the wastepaper basket and some other specific images leaving most of the MacOS like on-screen layout and functionality under the classification of preexisting public technology.

At that time there were at least a half dozen other WIMP environments in various stages of development I also examined as part of my job. The idea had already spread far and wide under Xerox's open and cooperative policies. There was never a need for stealth or theft on anyone's part.


----------



## Sapphire

aaronwt said:


> Wouldn't you then need a phone line connected to the TiVo for CID? Why would I connect a phone line to a TiVo?


I had onscreen Caller ID in my DirecTiVo Series 1 via the elseed/yac hack. It also allowed me to have CID popup on my PC with the TiVo receiving the CID data from the phone line and transmitting it over the LAN.


----------



## dig_duggler

generaltso said:


> How do we know it's not on Alcatraz island. Isn't that also "The Rock"?


Top of the Rock is at 30 Rockefeller Plaza, NYC


----------



## Brainiac 5

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Apple _bought_ it from Xerox in a stock deal.


No, they didn't. Apple gave Xerox stock in exchange for letting Apple's engineers visit Xerox and see what they were working on. They didn't sell any rights to Apple, probably because at the time it hadn't occurred to anyone to try to "own" something like the idea of a graphical user interface. In any case, after Apple sued Microsoft, Xerox sued Apple, but the suit was dismissed because Xerox was deemed to have waited too long to assert rights over the technology.



> I would love to see Flash die off. It is the most overused non-standard on the web. Any time I have problems with Firefox it's due to Flash.


I've always wondered when people talk about this, because I've never experienced any problems whatsoever with Flash. That doesn't mean other people don't, but I've never seen it myself.



> How did we get on the subject of the iPad? Oh yeah. Because of the hype leading up to its launch and the inevitable letdown... Inventing the DVR was only the beginning? This must be huge! Surely it will have at least 3 tuners maybe more. Tru2way is a definite. This is going to be incredible! Right?


Agreed - if they hype it too much, they'll set people's expectations so high that it won't be possible to live up to them, just like so many people complain about the iPad because it doesn't slice bread or take out the trash.


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## stmckin

win3.1 is coop multitask which is a fancy way of saying 'we arent really multitasking, just thread switching every little bit'.... the second kind of multitask is pre-emptive which is priority based and became available in win9x, but wasn't really usable till win2k...

The only shrinkwrap OS that was hot multitasking back then was OS2... in 1992 it behaved about like windows 2000 (8 years ahead!)... but again as someone pointed out... the best tech solution almost never wins


Flash is the number one performance problem Ive had in IE8 and FF3.x... it really really sucks... the new FF version + flash is the worst performing current browser. No flash= instantaneous rendering on either

I never thought I'd get there, but Silverlight + IE8 is gettin good... just check out the olympics website.... MS is gonna turn on HD Internet TV on Media Center with Silverlight and it's gonna be smoking hot.... 

which getting back to topic is a major strategic threat to Tivo


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## burdellgp

Windows 3.1 did have preemptive multitasking, just not for Windows apps (only DOS boxes were preemptively multitasked).


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## bspahn

Window NT 3.1 was the first OS from Microsoft that had preemptive multitasking. Windows 95 was the first 'consumer' OS that had preemptive multitasking. In DOS you could used a TSR to give the appearance of multitasking.


----------



## RayChuang88

Trying to avoid this issue again,







I have to ask this question: should I hold off getting a TiVo HD and wait for the Series 4 TiVo instead? Hopefully, the new TiVo box will have _Tru2Way_ support so the TiVo box can do everything with my Comcast cable connection, including On Demand and a true program guide.


----------



## reubanks

I don't think someone else should answer that for you until we KNOW what is being announced in March. 

Randy


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## Brainiac 5

RayChuang88 said:


> should I hold off getting a TiVo HD and wait for the Series 4 TiVo instead? Hopefully, the new TiVo box will have _Tru2Way_ support so the TiVo box can do everything with my Comcast cable connection, including On Demand and a true program guide.


If it was me, I'd at least wait until March 2nd to see what TiVo has to say. However, I wouldn't expect Tru2Way - I don't think the cable companies are ready for it except in a few test markets.


----------



## wmcbrine

Yeah, as I've said before, I don't even think the Premiere will be a Series 4. But it's got to be coming soon, and it may be worth waiting for. March 2nd is less than three weeks away.


----------



## bschuler2007

Depends, do you have less than 2 weeks to live? Your smart to wait.. not waiting is kinda dumb IMHO. Heck, I'd wait 2 weeks to see a new model of a can opener before buying one, but then again, I have something called patience.


----------



## nrc

TiVo may never create a "Series 4". I don't think they've been particularly thrilled with the nomenclature and they've been looking for new ways to name their products.

But if this box has a new generation SOC then it's what would have been called a "Series 4" whether or not if fits the fictional notion of what that should be that's been created on this forum. Particularly the notion that a "Series 4" would necessarily be a Tru2Way box. Tru2Way shows signs of being an even bigger flop than cable cards. I can't see TiVo pushing out a product at this point that supports just 3 or 4 markets.

Certainly a Tru2Way TiVo doesn't match the level of hype that they've created with their invitation. To do that they're going to need to have created a box that takes their idea of a converged content box further than anything we've seen to date. It's going to need to be greater than the sum of the all the parts they already have.

I'm hopeful, but I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## AbMagFab

It's all about social media integrated into TV watching... I can comment on a TV show (using the new keyboard remote), and then when my "friends" watch the TV show, they can see my comments at those particular parts of the show. while they watch it, at a totally different time.

Cool idea!


----------



## RayChuang88

Brainiac 5 said:


> If it was me, I'd at least wait until March 2nd to see what TiVo has to say. However, I wouldn't expect Tru2Way - I don't think the cable companies are ready for it except in a few test markets.


_Tru2way_ support was a bit of wishful thinking. 

But I will hold off until March 2, 2010, so let's see what TiVo rolls out then. Hopefully, the new DVR will have lower prices for the 500 GB or 1 TB model, since it will essentially replace my VCR.


----------



## Scyber

Just a note. "The Weather Room" in Rockefeller center is a venue that is available to rent for events to just about anyone (that can afford it). It is booked frequently for various corporate & private events. So just b/c the TiVo event is there, doesn't guarantee that there is going to be a Tie-in with NBC in this announcement.


----------



## tivohaydon

AbMagFab said:


> It's all about social media integrated into TV watching... I can comment on a TV show (using the new keyboard remote), and then when my "friends" watch the TV show, they can see my comments at those particular parts of the show. while they watch it, at a totally different time.
> 
> Cool idea!


I'm not sure whether that was sarcasm or not. In any case, the following is sarcasm.. 

They've got dogs that tweet and blog, why not TiVos? It'll be great. Your TiVo can tweet things like:

"I'm recording Stargate again. My owner is a real geek - he gave it three thumbs up."
"Right now we're watching Co-Ed Confidential, I guess the missus isn't home yet."
"I was just scheduled to record three hours of the shopping channel - WTF!?"
"This tweet was brought to you by Dominos. Got 30 minutes? I'll order one for you."

The best thing about this that the average blog has a readership of one (the author)... If we get enough TiVos, pets and other devices blogging and tweeting we can get that average readership down to zero!

An appeal to TiVo - please, please stay away from adding "features" such as social anything. Please improve the basic features of the device and deliver new ways to enjoy TV, movies and media.


----------



## dig_duggler

AbMagFab said:


> It's all about social media integrated into TV watching... I can comment on a TV show (using the new keyboard remote), and then when my "friends" watch the TV show, they can see my comments at those particular parts of the show. while they watch it, at a totally different time.
> 
> Cool idea!


I think you have something given all the info out there. Kind of cool, but not really a game changer.


----------



## MikeAndrews

Brainiac 5 said:


> No, they didn't. Apple gave Xerox stock in exchange for letting Apple's engineers visit Xerox and see what they were working on. They didn't sell any rights to Apple, probably because at the time it hadn't occurred to anyone to try to "own" something like the idea of a graphical user interface. In any case, after Apple sued Microsoft, Xerox sued Apple, but the suit was dismissed because Xerox was deemed to have waited too long to assert rights over the technology...


Right. I think in one of Cringley's documentaries they interview the actual Xerox engineer/facility head who was ordered by the suits to give Steve Jobs a tour and demo. She said she wouldn't do it, "Send me an order in writing." They did.

Steve was floored and went off to build the Macintosh with a small hand-selected team at Apple.

Xerox management was an amazing set of fools, Xerox PARC also invented Ethernet and Laser Printing but Xerox also did jack all with those because management said they were in the copier business and had no use for these toys. I hope they got nice bonuses.


----------



## vman41

reubanks said:


> I've always wondered when people talk about this, because I've never experienced any problems whatsoever with Flash. That doesn't mean other people don't, but I've never seen it myself.


My biggest problem with flash is the annoying things they do with it.


----------



## mfogarty5

AbMagFab said:


> It's all about social media integrated into TV watching... I can comment on a TV show (using the new keyboard remote), and then when my "friends" watch the TV show, they can see my comments at those particular parts of the show. while they watch it, at a totally different time.
> 
> Cool idea!


That's not a cool idea. Its an awful idea.

Tech companies have been trying for years to get "interactive tv" off the ground and time and time again consumers have shown that if they want interactivity they will use their computer and when they want to veg out they watch tv.

Here's what I think there is a realistic list of some of the things that will be announced.

Hardware

1. New lower cost 2 tuner model with 500GB hard drive based on Broadcom's newest chip.
2. Moca built-in so that neither ethernet nor wireless is required.

Software
1. New HD UI.
2. "Apps" for things like Netflix, Blockbuster, Hulu, etc.
3. Streaming TiVo to TiVo functionality(using the new built-in Moca) that avoids the TWC copy once issue.
4. Unified NPL and season passes if more than one TiVo is present.
5. Maybe VOD functionality. This would probably require MSO assistance.

It's also possible that TiVo will introduce a server client model like Moxi has done with their DVR. The problem with the Moxi is that the Cisco tuning adapter is limited to two tuners meaning that the 3 tuner Moxi loses a tuner in most TWC areas. This is why I think TiVo will opt to go with two tuner DVRs with some sort of software based unification.


----------



## AbMagFab

mfogarty5 said:


> That's not a cool idea. Its an awful idea.
> 
> Tech companies have been trying for years to get "interactive tv" off the ground and time and time again consumers have shown that if they want interactivity they will use their computer and when they want to veg out they watch tv.


And the world never changes.

And closed-minded old people stuck in the way-things-have-always-been are always replaced with young (minded) people who are open-minded and challenge the norm.


----------



## pdhenry

AbMagFab said:


> And the world never changes.
> 
> And closed-minded old people stuck in the way-things-have-always-been are always replaced with young (minded) people who are open-minded and challenge the norm.


Arrogant much?


----------



## DocNo

Revolutionary said:


> For the love of God, can we *please* not inject an argument about the freaking iPad into every thread on this forum?


hehe... give it up. You can't control other's actions - all you can do ignore that which annoys you. Ironically by bringing it up again, you will probably spawn off a whole 'nother sub-thread. Like this


----------



## AbMagFab

pdhenry said:


> Arrogant much?


The all-too-often cry of people left behind as the world changes in front of them...


----------



## DocNo

netringer said:


> Steve was floored and went off to build the Macintosh with a small hand-selected team at Apple.


Actually, the team had already been there and they took Steve there to get him on board. Remember, the Lisa was started and shipped before the Mac.

Some more details on why the visit was significant, but hardly critical in the creation of the Mac and not just a "copy" as the urban internet legends like to make it:

http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=On_Xerox,_Apple_and_Progress.txt

It's funny, reading back on the back and forth between Apple and Microsoft and how Tivo had similar issues with Dish/Echostar - except for Tivo, their way to create a cost effective DVR with inexpensive hardware was unique to them alone.

The more things change, the more they stay the same


----------



## DocNo

AbMagFab said:


> The all-too-often cry of people left behind as the world changes in front of them...


Meh - "social media" is overhyped and overblown, and I sincerely doubt it will cross over to TV viewing. Not because I'm being left behind or just not hip and with it, but because TV is a one-way experience - other than reaching for the Tivo remote to fast forward through commercials 

Interacting is _work_ and most people watching TV don't want to _work_ while watching TV. Hence the reference to "vegging out" - it's very appropriate...


----------



## innocentfreak

mfogarty5 said:


> That's not a cool idea. Its an awful idea.
> 
> Tech companies have been trying for years to get "interactive tv" off the ground and time and time again consumers have shown that if they want interactivity they will use their computer and when they want to veg out they watch tv.
> 
> Here's what I think there is a realistic list of some of the things that will be announced.
> 
> Hardware
> 
> 1. New lower cost 2 tuner model with 500GB hard drive based on Broadcom's newest chip.
> 2. Moca built-in so that neither ethernet nor wireless is required.
> 
> Software
> 1. New HD UI.
> 2. "Apps" for things like Netflix, Blockbuster, Hulu, etc.
> 3. Streaming TiVo to TiVo functionality(using the new built-in Moca) that avoids the TWC copy once issue.
> 4. Unified NPL and season passes if more than one TiVo is present.
> 5. Maybe VOD functionality. This would probably require MSO assistance.
> 
> It's also possible that TiVo will introduce a server client model like Moxi has done with their DVR. The problem with the Moxi is that the Cisco tuning adapter is limited to two tuners meaning that the 3 tuner Moxi loses a tuner in most TWC areas. This is why I think TiVo will opt to go with two tuner DVRs with some sort of software based unification.


I agree if they make a big deal about it, but if it is just a side benefit as a look what we can do similar to how Verizon Fios just added Twitter and Facebook to their DVRs or just to demonstrate the qwerty remote I don't see a problem.

While I would love a 500gb drive, I have a feeling the drive may only be 320gb based solely off the fact the RCN model is supposed to be 320gb and I believe some of the overseas models come stock with a 320gb drive. Now if they end up upgrading those I could see a 500gb making sense. From a cost POV, I just seeing them sticking with the same size drive since it allows them to increase orders to decrease cost per drive.

I don't necessarily see MOCA included since we know TiVo has a new wireless adapter in the works. For all we know this new adapter may have some built in MOCA support.

As long as you have enough USB slots, you can add as many TAs as you need. Some Ceton testers have 3 TAs on one machine to support the 6 tuners on one PC.


----------



## slowbiscuit

TWinbrook46636 said:


> I would love to see Flash die off. It is the most overused non-standard on the web. Any time I have problems with Firefox it's due to Flash.


FlashBlock is your friend. I don't leave home without it.


----------



## MickeS

DocNo said:


> Meh - "social media" is overhyped and overblown, and I sincerely doubt it will cross over to TV viewing. Not because I'm being left behind or just not hip and with it, but because TV is a one-way experience - other than reaching for the Tivo remote to fast forward through commercials
> 
> Interacting is _work_ and most people watching TV don't want to _work_ while watching TV. Hence the reference to "vegging out" - it's very appropriate...


Checked TWOP or our own little "Now Playing" section here in this forum? Talking about TV is definitely something people like to do. yes, it is not while watching, but that can change.

I don't think TiVo is doing much about this, but whoever will successfully tap into people's desire to communicate about TV and integrate that into the TV watching will be very well off. The keyword being, of course "successfully."


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

MickeS said:


> I don't think TiVo is doing much about this, but whoever will successfully tap into people's desire to communicate about TV and integrate that into the TV watching will be very well off. The keyword being, of course "successfully."


Yeah, and for those who downplay the potential of social networking combined with TV watching, I think they just haven't been paying attention to what "kids today" are up to. Me, I don't get it, but that's certainly the direction "they're" heading. Cellphones, text messaging, Facebook, they feel naked if they're not constantly plugged into whatever you call the expanded internet. Even my dad carries the internet in his pocket (iPhone). And whoever ties live TV into social networking first (or at least best) it will probably get rich.

(It probably won't be TiVo, since TiVo is still such a niche product. But they can at least stay relevant by giving another demographic a reason to sign up.)


----------



## murgatroyd

AbMagFab said:


> The all-too-often cry of people left behind as the world changes in front of them...


Sometimes us 'left behinders' are not *****ing because of the changes, we're *****ing because the implementations suck.

Some of us have lives. We don't have the time to endlessly tweak stuff just because we've been forced to change from the old sucky thing to a new sucky thing.

Jan


----------



## mfogarty5

AbMagFab said:


> And the world never changes.
> 
> And closed-minded old people stuck in the way-things-have-always-been are always replaced with young (minded) people who are open-minded and challenge the norm.


No its people like you who assume everything will converge.

People can already do exactly what you are talking about with their laptop or smartphone while they watch a show. In addition, they can surf the web. They certainly don't need a new TiVo to do so which is why if TiVo spent any time developing what you think is "cool" then it was a colossal waste of shareholder money.

This isn't about me being closed minded. It's about the consumer telling technology companies for a decade now that they don't want interactive tv.

Get over yourself.


----------



## classicsat

walkingdogs said:


> The only way those people are going to be able to use the ipad for those purposes is if they get or have apps provided through the appstore since you can't install 3rd party apps any other way.


There is a legitimate way for an enterprise to publish apps for their internal use, without publishing to the public store or having Apple approve the app. It involves something like buying an enterprise SDK or the like.


----------



## AbMagFab

mfogarty5 said:


> No its people like you who assume everything will converge.
> 
> People can already do exactly what you are talking about with their laptop or smartphone while they watch a show. In addition, they can surf the web. They certainly don't need a new TiVo to do so which is why if TiVo spent any time developing what you think is "cool" then it was a colossal waste of shareholder money.
> 
> This isn't about me being closed minded. It's about the consumer telling technology companies for a decade now that they don't want interactive tv.
> 
> Get over yourself.


Perhaps you're just being a little close minded (no offense) about new ways to mix social media and television viewing. You appear to be solely thinking about things available today (e.g. twitter and facebook) being available on the TV.

There are much more creative, new ways, to mix social media (the concept and practice, not the current products) with TV viewing.

And 10 years ago, social media was almost non-existent. To use that as a basis for what should be done today is being locked in historical thinking.

This has nothing to do with age-old debate on convergence. Not sure where that came from.

Things change, with or without everyone coming along for the ride. And often, people resistant to change express that as anger. But that does nothing to slow down the change.


----------



## MichaelK

aaronwt said:


> With the current MRV I can already watch the HD content in faster than realtime when transferring. Although I wish you could start watching it with MRV before the programm finished recording.


Tivo made a deal with the NFL way back when they announced MRV to keep the NFL from going all lawyer on them.

Basically the NFL demanded no real time transfers becasue they were afraid that people wouldn't buy NFL sunday ticket on directv if they could just get a friend in their home town allow them to send the game to another city.

Maybe tivo has proven that isn't an issue (people transferring content outside the home) and the NFL will relax but i wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## innocentfreak

Of course with Slingboxes now you can do exactly that if your friends are willing to setup slingboxes at their house.


----------



## MichaelK

innocentfreak said:


> Of course with Slingboxes now you can do exactly that if your friends are willing to setup slingboxes at their house.


yep- and somehow the NFL doesn't sue the pee out of them... who knows...


----------



## nrc

AbMagFab said:


> And closed-minded old people stuck in the way-things-have-always-been are always replaced with young (minded) people who are open-minded and challenge the norm.


In other words, "living with their parents."

If "these kids today" want to text while watching TV that's fine by me. I won't use it and it certainly doesn't rise to the level of hype TiVo created with their event announcement.


----------



## dig_duggler

I've forgotten how snarky these threads get.

How this could be cool is if a user could 'tag' his/her favorite scene in say the new episode of Modern Family and share it with someone on their user list (enter a Tivo service number to make a contact). Then you might get the whole 'Press Thumbs Up' icon to see what "Dad" said about this scene. I think this could work and create some interactivity that is fairly seamless. People always like to talk about their favorite scenes from shows with their friends and family, this gives you a chance to do it as soon as the user starts watching it. Something like this might be in the cards. If this idea has been really thought out and fleshed out it could be kind of cool.


----------



## MichaelK

nrc said:


> "these kids today" ....


made me laugh.

But i dont know that abmagfab is nutz.

I'm not big into social networking and all that. i do have a facebook account that i check in on every couple weeks. I have linked in becasue that seems to be the thing to do for work but honestly never log in unless someone else tries to 'frienderate' me or sends me a message. I dont know what twitter is- I've looked at their website a couple times to try and find some information that someone told me was fonud there, never found what i needed, and got a brain hurt.

so I could care less about social networking or real time twits popping up on my screen.

But that said I dont think it's insane that tivo COULD say "inventing the dvr was just a warmup, we changed WHEN you watch TV, *now we're going to change the way you watch tv*, including all your friends and family. TV Your way, blah blah blah."

just look at the facebook numbers:
http://www.facebook.com/press/info.php?statistics

and I think twitter is the "new big thing" - right? So maybe that's more important then facebook's numbers.

ABC- replays Lost episodes with popups throughout the epidsode.

and google thinks social networking is so big a deal they just lunched their buzz thing the other day on the web and on smartphones and they are working on an 'enterprise version' from what i see in the news blurbs. AND it's not their usual "beta" nonsense but a real actual product from them from day 1.

So, while us "old", "close minded", folks who sit around muttering "these kids" might think there's ZERO value to us in such a thing, I'm not so sure that TiVo wouldn't do it.

I hope it's not that and there is something that does benefit me, but it wouldn't shock me with there was tivo-twitterbookedinbuzz announced at such a news conference.


----------



## mfogarty5

Again, I must be missing something.

The whole point of a DVR is to time shift your viewing so you can watch what you want to watch on your schedule.

Now you think people are all going to sit around and watch in real time so they can chat about it with their friends?!? You don't need a DVR to do that!

Or better yet you can see a conversation about a show that you haven't seen yet which spoils the episode!

Either option defeats the whole point of a DVR!!

Like I said if TiVo spent any time or money on this "social networking" concept, then it was a colossal waste of shareholder money.

The DVR by its very definition is incompatible with social networking.


----------



## nrc

MichaelK said:


> So, while us "old", "close minded", folks who sit around muttering "these kids" might think there's ZERO value to us in such a thing, I'm not so sure that TiVo wouldn't do it.


I'm certainly not dismissing that idea. Something like that seems likely given TiVo's recent patent applications. I'm just saying that there'd better be a lot more to it than that given the bar that TiVo has set for themselves.


----------



## samo

nrc said:


> I'm certainly not dismissing that idea. Something like that seems likely given TiVo's recent patent applications. I'm just saying that there'd better be a lot more to it than that given the bar that TiVo has set for themselves.


What bar are you talking about? Tivo hasn't released any statements suggesting anything yet. For what we know "Inventing the DVR was just a warmup" could be followed by "today we figured how to insert targeted non-skippable ads in every program"
My point is that "invitation only" imply that meeting is geared toward investors, not consumers. If there is any bar set, it doesn't mean that it has anything to do with technical innovation for consumers.


----------



## b_scott

all i want is a sleeker faster interface, and one that looks great for my 50" Pioneer.


----------



## MickeS

mfogarty5 said:


> Again, I must be missing something.
> 
> The whole point of a DVR is to time shift your viewing so you can watch what you want to watch on your schedule.
> 
> Now you think people are all going to sit around and watch in real time so they can chat about it with their friends?!?


Yeah, you are missing something. 

I don't think live TV is the way to go at all with this. Something like what dig_duggler mentioned above is way more likely for anyone wanting to do something with this concept.

If all people wanted was real-time chat, IRC would be the hottest thing around...


----------



## johnm4

This better be good... Looking forward for a box that really does what I want.


----------



## nrc

samo said:


> What bar are you talking about? Tivo hasn't released any statements suggesting anything yet. For what we know "Inventing the DVR was just a warmup" could be followed by "today we figured how to insert targeted non-skippable ads in every program"


When they relate their announcement to the invention of the DVR it's reasonable to infer that they have something very significant to announce. Pretty much all the tech press has expressed that sentiment so if that wasn't TiVo's intent with this announcement then their PR people blundered.



> My point is that "invitation only" imply that meeting is geared toward investors, not consumers. If there is any bar set, it doesn't mean that it has anything to do with technical innovation for consumers.


It's invitation only for the tech press. This is something TiVo talked about in invitation only meetings at CES. Handling investor information that way would get them a big fine from the SEC.


----------



## magnus

I like this idea but would hope that if they ever did it that they would allow for OTA.

I am out of power since Friday morning. All the snow on the trees brought down power lines and no telling when it will be back up. 

Edit: Finally, power is restored!!!



MediaLivingRoom said:


> 1. TiVo will just have a TiVo server farm that will record every channel and every hour in the USA all converted to H.264 standard and HD.
> 2. Then the TiVo Series 4 (CableCard required) will just be a networked version only.
> 3. TiVo Series 4 can download any TV hour or hours based on your ZIP code and Cable Provider on your CableCard from TiVo.com as On-Demand, but with all the local commercials to keep the cable providers from complaining.
> 4. TiVo.com will play back all shows based on the same requirement from item 3.


----------



## lew

I suspect we'll either see Hulu or something similar with NBC only shows. I wonder if we'll pay per showing, pay a monthly subscription fee or if it will be "paid for" with ads.


----------



## magnus

I'd only pay for items that I can't get over OTA. I'm not willing to pay for something that I can already get.


----------



## timstack8969

Should I buy a TIVO HD XL today or wait for March 2nd annoucement?


----------



## shady

timstack8969 said:


> Should I buy a TIVO HD XL today or wait for March 2nd annoucement?


Buy it now, otherwise you'll miss the Olympics!


----------



## Scyber

timstack8969 said:


> Should I buy a TIVO HD XL today or wait for March 2nd annoucement?


At this point I'd wait. It is only 2 weeks away and if you don't like what they are offering, you can simply pick up an HDXL at that point.


----------



## innocentfreak

I would only if you find one on clearance where you have an easy return policy within 30 days.


----------



## janry

My brother-in-law's mechanic's step-son's girlfriend's Father just broke the news to us that via a USB port of the new Tivo, the Tivo software will be able to control multiple tuners installed in a PC, and that will also allow the recorded programs to be stored on the PC rather than on the TiVo's internal drive. The PC connection will allow for the TiVo's broadband connection rather than a separate network adapter or modem dedicated to the TiVo. This will also allow other internet content accessible to the PC to be shared directly to the TiVo. Yay! Internet porn on the TiVo!

Take it to the bank folks. You just can't get more reliable information.


----------



## MikeAndrews

janry said:


> My brother-in-law's mechanic's step-son's girlfriend's Father just broke the news to us that via a USB port of the new Tivo, the Tivo software will be able to control multiple tuners installed in a PC, and that will also allow the recorded programs to be stored on the PC rather than on the TiVo's internal drive. The PC connection will allow for the TiVo's broadband connection rather than a separate network adapter or modem dedicated to the TiVo. This will also allow other internet content accessible to the PC to be shared directly to the TiVo. Yay! Internet porn on the TiVo!
> 
> Take it to the bank folks. You just can't get more reliable information.


Yeah! It would just be one more easy direct computer-computer connection over USB! Oh......wait.


----------



## janry

netringer said:


> Yeah! It would just be one more easy direct computer-computer connection over USB! Oh......wait.


But, it won't be Mac compatible.


----------



## MikeAndrews

janry said:


> But, it won't be Mac compatible.


Ahbut, with Macs you CAN do it with a Firewire cable or any Ethernet cable. You can even make a Mac be a disk drive.


----------



## Kablemodem

janry said:


> Yay! Internet porn on the TiVo!


All you have to do is download torrents and transfer the files to your TiVo via TiVo to Go Back. Or so I've been told.


----------



## Mikeyis4dcats

Kablemodem said:


> All you have to do is download torrents and transfer the files to your TiVo via TiVo to Go Back. Or so I've been told.


or use Vuze to do it all in one window!


----------



## snash22

reubanks said:


> Microsoft first introduced Windows in November 1985
> The Amiga 1000 was introduced on July 24, 1985
> The first Macintosh was introduced on January 24, 1984
> 
> Somehow I find it difficult to call four months "years", but to each his own.
> 
> (and of course this was because Commodore stole the Atari crew to design the new Commodores and Ol' Jack left Commodore and bought Atari.) The pedigree of these computers gets really muddy at times. Don't even get me started on the NeXT cube or BeOS... Hmm, maybe I'll go download Haiku.
> 
> Randy


IBM & MS were developing OS/2 together. I thought that Windows was stolen by MS from the partnership MS and IBM had.


----------



## AbMagFab

snash22 said:


> IBM & MS were developing OS/2 together. I thought that Windows was stolen by MS from the partnership MS and IBM had.


NT was.


----------



## innocentfreak

Does anyone know how long after an announcement, it usually takes before TiVo has product for sale? Or is this really the first time they have done it this way where they have pretty much gotten rid of old stock before the new launch?


----------



## AbMagFab

innocentfreak said:


> Does anyone know how long after an announcement, it usually takes before TiVo has product for sale? Or is this really the first time they have done it this way where they have pretty much gotten rid of old stock before the new launch?


There is no "usually". In this case, the signs of dumping old stock 30+ days before would indicate it will be available on March 2nd, or very near then. But who knows...


----------



## schwinn

Mikeyis4dcats said:


> or use Vuze to do it all in one window!


Agreed... Vuze is a nice alternative. I will note that my TivoHD choked on a Vuze-delivered video at one point, and completely crashed and rebooted the machine in the process. I ended up watching it on the PS3 instead with no issues...

I presume you're having better luck than I did with Vuze to TivoHD?


----------



## innocentfreak

AbMagFab said:


> There is no "usually". In this case, the signs of dumping old stock 30+ days before would indicate it will be available on March 2nd, or very near then. But who knows...


Cool I figured the same thing, but I see it available from Tivo first. I doubt anyone else will get them before the 2nd otherwise I would expect some photo leaks like we saw with the ps3 slim.


----------



## lew

Scyber said:


> Just a note. "The Weather Room" in Rockefeller center is a venue that is available to rent for events to just about anyone (that can afford it). It is booked frequently for various corporate & private events. So just b/c the TiVo event is there, doesn't guarantee that there is going to be a Tie-in with NBC in this announcement.


Tivo is a CA company. The fact that the event is being held in NY, in the NBC "complex" suggests the announcement may include NBC. I agree there isn't a guarantee. Tivo could be holding the event in NY to make it more available to financial publications but I'm pretty sure publications like WSJ have reporters available in CA.

Tivo is using the same broadcom chipsets Moxi is using. I'd hope we'll see more then just updated hardware.


----------



## MikeAndrews

snash22 said:


> IBM & MS were developing OS/2 together. I thought that Windows was stolen by MS from the partnership MS and IBM had.


Not necessarily. I was at a meeting at the time where Bill Gates said there would be two OSs going forward, OS/2 and Windows, although of course he already knew he was going to throw IBM under the bus.


----------



## Ziggy86

If there is a new UI do you think Series 3 and TivoHD useres will be getting it too?


----------



## MichaelK

Ziggy86 said:


> If there is a new UI do you think Series 3 and TivoHD useres will be getting it too?


thats the magic question I want answered.


----------



## MichaelK

netringer said:


> Not necessarily. I was at a meeting at the time where Bill Gates said there would be two OSs going forward, OS/2 and Windows, although of course he already knew he was going to throw IBM under the bus.


do you frequently take Beelzebub at his word?


----------



## janry

Ziggy86 said:


> If there is a new UI do you think Series 3 and TivoHD useres will be getting it too?


No, I don't think so. If they did, it would remove the incentive some would have to jump on the new box.

However, some new feature might compell them to. For example, cooperative scheduling might dictate the old boxes have an update to the UI and then it might be easiest to put that interface in the Series 3 boxes.


----------



## Scyber

Ziggy86 said:


> If there is a new UI do you think Series 3 and TivoHD useres will be getting it too?


Well its all rumor at this point, but some of the sites seem to indicate they might:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/11/new-ui-tweaked-hardware-in-store-for-tivos-march-reveal/



> but an anonymous tipster claiming knowledge of recent developments in the beta program let us know what may be coming. Although it began as simple bug fixes for the Series 3 now an all new user experience is on the way that the company expects to perfect the DVR.


Since it began on the S3, it might be something that is still designed to run on the older hardware. But as I said, everything is rumors at this point, so who knows for sure.


----------



## uncdrew

lew said:


> Tivo is a CA company. The fact that the event is being held in NY, in the NBC "complex" suggests the announcement may include NBC. I agree there isn't a guarantee. Tivo could be holding the event in NY to make it more available to financial publications but I'm pretty sure publications like WSJ have reporters available in CA.
> 
> Tivo is using the same broadcom chipsets Moxi is using. I'd hope we'll see more then just updated hardware.


Of course the investment community is largely based in NY, so that's another reason to be there. Our company execs often report news from Manhattan.


----------



## solutionsetc

janry said:


> No, I don't think so. If they did, it would remove the incentive some would have to jump on the new box.


Not sure what TiVo wants most, new box sales or subscribers, but if I feel TiVo is purposely not updating series 3 unit software solely to provide incentive for me to buy new hardware I can assure them my purchase will NOT be another TiVo.


----------



## morac

uncdrew said:


> Of course the investment community is largely based in NY, so that's another reason to be there. Our company execs often report news from Manhattan.


For what it's worth, TiVo's advertising division is based out of their NY office. Investor relations is in CA.


----------



## janry

solutionsetc said:


> Not sure what TiVo wants most, new box sales or subscribers, but if I feel TiVo is purposely not updating series 3 unit software solely to provide incentive for me to buy new hardware I can assure them my purchase will NOT be another TiVo.


Really!

I think most companies know they can depend upon the public wanting the lastest. Car companies have made a fortune over the years by making design changes and feature enhancements in the new models. They don't retrofit the old cars to make them look like the new cars and to have the same features.


----------



## solutionsetc

janry said:


> Really!
> 
> I think most companies know they can depend upon the public wanting the lastest. Car companies have made a fortune over the years by making design changes and feature enhancements in the new models. They don't retrofit the old cars to make them look like the new cars and to have the same features.


Yes, really. I don't pay "Car companies" a monthly subscription fee. Your business model analogy is fatally flawed. TiVo profits are primarily generated by subscription revenue. Pissing off your subscriber base by intentionally holding back features for the sole purpose of driving them to new hardware (which is in turn subsidized by that subscription revenue) would be the stupidest possible move.


----------



## MichaelK

janry said:


> No, I don't think so. If they did, it would remove the incentive some would have to jump on the new box.
> 
> However, some new feature might compell them to. For example, cooperative scheduling might dictate the old boxes have an update to the UI and then it might be easiest to put that interface in the Series 3 boxes.


why would tivo want anyone to buy a new box? they lose money on every box they sell.

to them making us buy new boxes is a bad idea- it will make them lose even more money.

Now if they can't get something to work on the old hardware then they have no choice. But if they can get something to run it is better for them to let old boxes have it.

Say Joe bought a box 1 year ago and put the mandatory one year sub on it. it's not clear that if Joe tosses that tomorrow to buy the new box if TiVo has even broke even on the original box after a year of service fees. But lets say they do break even- then next month they get to make a profit on Joe. If he has to go buy a new box it takes them a year again to eat the subsidy and they don't make a profit on Joe until 2011.

that said- the fact there seems to be hardware shortages does make me think something new is in the pipe because the new whatever needs new hardware and can't run on the old.


----------



## janry

MichaelK said:


> why would tivo want anyone to buy a new box? they lose money on every box they sell.
> 
> to them making us buy new boxes is a bad idea- it will make them lose even more money.
> 
> .


If you buy a new box, you stay a subscriber longer. Evenually, they costs more to continue to support multiple models. They evenually quit updating software on the old Series 1 except in emergency situations.


----------



## dswallow

janry said:


> No, I don't think so. If they did, it would remove the incentive some would have to jump on the new box.


TiVo doesn't want you to buy a new box. They don't make money on the box. While they certainly want you to have access to services you would pay more for, a new box for the sake of a new box would not be something TiVo would want to require.

As much as they may be actually meaningful, the "rumors" on the various in-the-know gadget sights all include info that the HD UI changes would first become available on existing Series 3 units through a software update.


----------



## MichaelK

janry said:


> If you buy a new box, you stay a subscriber longer.


yes and no

yes you are locked in for a year (another year of break even for tivo)

no- you are not a profitable subscriber for any longer. Even if joe only stays with his old box one more month- that's one month of profit. If he gets a new box and only stays a year than it's zero months of profit.

I would hope, and believe they see, that the way to keep subs longer is to have a compelling service that gets better over time.


----------



## TriBruin

janry said:


> Really!
> 
> I think most companies know they can depend upon the public wanting the lastest. Car companies have made a fortune over the years by making design changes and feature enhancements in the new models. They don't retrofit the old cars to make them look like the new cars and to have the same features.





solutionsetc said:


> Yes, really. I don't pay "Car companies" a monthly subscription fee. Your business model analogy is fatally flawed. TiVo profits are primarily generated by subscription revenue. Pissing off your subscriber base by intentionally holding back features for the sole purpose of driving them to new hardware (which is in turn subsidized by that subscription revenue) would be the stupidest possible move.


Actually, Tivo is probably better off if their users DON'T buy the latest hardware all the time. Tivo loses money on the hardware. They would rater keep a subscriber on an existing platform for as long as they can. Only when the platform no longer offers new features (that makes Tivo money) do they try and get people to upgrade.


----------



## bwld123

solutionsetc said:


> Not sure what TiVo wants most, new box sales or subscribers, but if I feel TiVo is purposely not updating series 3 unit software solely to provide incentive for me to buy new hardware I can assure them my purchase will NOT be another TiVo.


solutionsetc.. think of it this way instead just for a moment. Lets say that they will offer whatever new features they come out with for your series 3 unit via a download. Now, these new features are best when utilized on their new box, which has a faster processor, and is more or less built for the new unit. Let say you decide not to get the new box, but take the download so that you too have the new features. At this time, your new features are very slow, your series 3 box is sluggish, and simply becomes un-useable... for an analogy lets say its almost like someone taking your great new MacBook and instead of haveing high speed internet , you get dial up internet access instead. Would this be a better user experience for you?

Point being, at times it does seem like companies "force" you into buying their latest products, at to an extent they do. Based on the length of time it has taken for the new TiVo to come out, it will probably be an entire re-working from the ground up. Could you "retro-fit" the new software? sure. Will you want to? Probably not.

Let me now ask you this. If you are running Windows on your home computer, are you still running Windows 95 with an Intel 386 processor, or have you upgraded both??


----------



## dswallow

bwld123 said:


> solutionsetc.. think of it this way instead just for a moment. Lets say that they will offer whatever new features they come out with for your series 3 unit via a download. Now, these new features are best when utilized on their new box, which has a faster processor, and is more or less built for the new unit. Let say you decide not to get the new box, but take the download so that you too have the new features. At this time, your new features are very slow, your series 3 box is sluggish, and simply becomes un-useable... for an analogy lets say its almost like someone taking your great new MacBook and instead of haveing high speed internet , you get dial up internet access instead. Would this be a better user experience for you?
> 
> Point being, at times it does seem like companies "force" you into buying their latest products, at to an extent they do. Based on the length of time it has taken for the new TiVo to come out, it will probably be an entire re-working from the ground up. Could you "retro-fit" the new software? sure. Will you want to? Probably not.
> 
> Let me now ask you this. If you are running Windows on your home computer, are you still running Windows 95 with an Intel 386 processor, or have you upgraded both??


Of course "those people" who talked about the "rumors" also said how much faster/snappier the new UI is on the existing hardware...


----------



## solutionsetc

bwld123 said:


> solutionsetc.. think of it this way instead just for a moment...


With all due respect bwld123, it seems you didn't read my posts very carefully. I specifically mentioned in both of them the "holding back" of new features "solely" for the purpose of forcing one to upgrade.

I specifically phrased it this way as I am well aware that new hardware brings with it things not possible with older models. And the original post I responded to was entirely within this context; with someone suggesting we won't see any missing/new feature upgrades on series three due to them wanting to only pimp new boxes.

But many of the things I would like to see in an update would require no additional horsepower just implementation. And while it would be a shame for TiVo to make the decision that a new interface requires a bunch of meaningless wiz bang bobbles that would waste countless processor cycles, that seems to be the flashy trend in interface design now-a-days so I don't think I would fault them (too much) for that.


----------



## bwld123

solutionsetc said:


> With all due respect bwld123, it seems you didn't read my posts very carefully. I specifically mentioned in both of them the "holding back" of new features "solely" for the purpose of forcing one to upgrade.
> 
> I specifically phrased it this way as I am well aware that new hardware brings with it things not possible with older models. And the original post I responded to was entirely within this context; with someone suggesting we won't see any missing/new feature upgrades on series three due to them wanting to only pimp new boxes.
> 
> But many of the things I would like to see in an update would require no additional horsepower just implementation. And while it would be a shame for TiVo to make the decision that a new interface requires a bunch of meaningless wiz bang bobbles that would waste countless processor cycles, that seems to be the flashy trend in interface design now-a-days so I don't think I would fault them (too much) for that.


point well taken... i did miss the "holding back" part.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

TriBruin said:


> Actually, Tivo is probably better off if their users DON'T buy the latest hardware all the time. Tivo loses money on the hardware. They would rater keep a subscriber on an existing platform for as long as they can. Only when the platform no longer offers new features (that makes Tivo money) do they try and get people to upgrade.


and just we see happening here - S3 models that had a 3 year prepay are getting a nice lifetime offer. 
Series 2 models are not getting new features
series 1 models are an anchor around TiVo inc.'s bottom line.

Clearly TiVo would like to see series 1 and series 2 models go out of use as users have upgraded to a series 3 model. This fits right in line with newer features only on series 3 that makes TiVo money.


----------



## innocentfreak

MichaelK said:


> that said- the fact there seems to be hardware shortages does make me think something new is in the pipe because the new whatever needs new hardware and can't run on the old.


Then again if there is a UI update and it is backwords compatible they could just be updating the stock before re-rolling it out. This way all units for the most part in the retail channels are running the new UI.

Tthere is also the fact that Best Buy seems to be their last B&M retail chain and with their deal they definitely want to make and keep them happy. I don't see leaving them with old stock that they have to clearance out at a potential loss would be a good move on TiVo's part if we are instead getting new hardware.

With all the new broadcom chips out there, I would be surprised if TiVo stuck with the old hardware though even if it can run it. They may not go with the greatest and latest, but I definitely see them going newer than what we have in the Tivo HD.

So do we think the next TiVo will be predominantly silver or predominately black or a combination of both?


----------



## MichaelK

innocentfreak said:


> Then again if there is a UI update and it is backwords compatible they could just be updating the stock before re-rolling it out. This way all units for the most part in the retail channels are running the new UI. ...


interesting guess. Not sure what I think of it though considering a tivo can update itself in place.

It's been so long since I got a new box- do they now upgrade themselves to the latest and greatest software on the first call- or is it after the first day? I know there is some difference now where it downloads a smaller amount of inital guide data to 'get things going'- I wonder what the OS deal is? Anyone who's bought recently recall?


----------



## wmcbrine

innocentfreak said:


> So do we think the next TiVo will be predominantly silver or predominately black or a combination of both?


Black is the new silver and black.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

MichaelK said:


> interesting guess. Not sure what I think of it though considering a tivo can update itself in place.
> 
> It's been so long since I got a new box- do they now upgrade themselves to the latest and greatest software on the first call- or is it after the first day? I know there is some difference now where it downloads a smaller amount of inital guide data to 'get things going'- I wonder what the OS deal is? Anyone who's bought recently recall?


assuming the OS has been out a while they upgrade right away. If it is a new OS still on a roll out they get in line like everyone else.

If TiVo can put out a new box in the Series 2 DT price range then I can easily see the series 2 just not being sold new anymore. The market for people wanting to control a cable or sat or ota convertor box is shrinking and likely not much of a draw to TiVo in the form of selling new boxes for it.

PS - if their is a deal then you cna bet Best Buy is directly involved in the product release date.


----------



## innocentfreak

MichaelK said:


> interesting guess. Not sure what I think of it though considering a tivo can update itself in place.
> 
> It's been so long since I got a new box- do they now upgrade themselves to the latest and greatest software on the first call- or is it after the first day? I know there is some difference now where it downloads a smaller amount of inital guide data to 'get things going'- I wonder what the OS deal is? Anyone who's bought recently recall?


I truly don't see it happening unless they are possibly also upgrading the drive, but you never know with TiVo.

It usually takes a couple of tries and then you have the pending restart unless you manually restart it between each update. I know mine didn't update until they were activated also and even then it still took a week or so with forced daily calls.


----------



## innocentfreak

ZeoTiVo said:


> PS - if their is a deal then you cna bet Best Buy is directly involved in the product release date.


If this turns out to be the Best Buy TiVo, I could see it being launched around the 7th of March. They can't put it in the ad for the week of February 28th since it would be before the announcement. If they wait a week they could have it in the ad for the next week after the launch allowing TiVo to say it will be available at Best Buy on March 7th. Even with a March 7th launch I would expect to see the flyer before then since they usually leak a week or two before.

I also don't think they want to hold out much past that just to get units moving again, but what do I know.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

innocentfreak said:


> I also don't think they want to hold out much past that just to get units moving again, but what do I know.


for whatever reasons - info on this anouncement has been hard to come by. I think TiVo and Best Buy are holding their cards extremely close to their chest this time.
Whetehr that results in some really great news or only some good news on some nice advances we all saw coming is still to be seen come March 2nd.


----------



## AbMagFab

I gotta say, Best Buy pretty much sucks to date at promoting Tivo. It's usually a few boxes, way up on top of some shelves, maybe a few down on a shelf, and that's it. Maybe they have some run-down looking opened Tivo HD on display.

You'd think they would have tested this relationship a little before now? If the current promotion is any indication, this will fail miserably no matter if it has an Insignia logo or not.


----------



## innocentfreak

ZeoTiVo said:


> for whatever reasons - info on this anouncement has been hard to come by. I think TiVo and Best Buy are holding their cards extremely close to their chest this time.
> Whetehr that results in some really great news or only some good news on some nice advances we all saw coming is still to be seen come March 2nd.


I definitely agree. I almost wish TiVo would tease more. They could even show a couple shots of just the corner of a new box similar to how car companies tease new models with just shots of the bumper. I keep thinking I am missing little tidbits out there but nope nothing.



AbMagFab said:


> I gotta say, Best Buy pretty much sucks to date at promoting Tivo. It's usually a few boxes, way up on top of some shelves, maybe a few down on a shelf, and that's it. Maybe they have some run-down looking opened Tivo HD on display.
> 
> You'd think they would have tested this relationship a little before now? If the current promotion is any indication, this will fail miserably no matter if it has an Insignia logo or not.


Yeah but previously it wasn't a Best Buy branded model. They don't do well at promoting much of anything lol. With the future Best Buy TiVo, they would have more of an interest in pushing it especially if they get some type of kick back off subscriptions on units sold in store.


----------



## sdzc

If it is just a Best Buy box, why would overall TivoHD inventory levels be down at other retailers?


----------



## innocentfreak

It doesn't mean it couldn't also be a new model. Who else is down besides Best Buy and Tivo? Amazon has cut prices but still has stock and I don't know of anyway to see how many they actually have.

Also I know at one point it was thought that the Best Buy model might be the same as the regular model but might have a different pricing structure due to extra advertising and tie-ins with Best Buy. This was all before the rumors and the new of an announcement though.


----------



## TerpBE

I have a feeling we're going to be disappointed with something like ""Inventing the DVR was just a warmup...now we're making it affordable for everyone! The new Tivo Premiere, only $99 (with 2-year agreement)."


----------



## MickeS

TerpBE said:


> I have a feeling we're going to be disappointed with something like ""Inventing the DVR was just a warmup...now we're making it affordable for everyone! The new Tivo Premiere, only $99 (with 2-year agreement)."


Yeah, I think this and/or some sort of on-demand Internet video streaming service are the most likely things to happen. Basically, a WDTV Live/Vudu or similar, with recording capability. I think that's where TiVo needs to be positioning themselves.


----------



## wmcbrine

TerpBE said:


> I have a feeling we're going to be disappointed with something like ""Inventing the DVR was just a warmup...now we're making it affordable for everyone! The new Tivo Premiere, only $99 (with 2-year agreement)."


Actually that sounds pretty good. Not worthy of the hype, but good. I'm expecting the Premiere to be more like $199.


----------



## innocentfreak

I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement is disappointing. Listening to the latest EngadgetHD podcast where they spent 10 minutes on the subject also I found myself agreeing with them that TiVo just needs to do too many things that are very unlikely to happen for people to not be disappointed. This is especially true with how slow they are to move forward with new offerings. 

While a new UI could potentially be exciting and the potential for faster transfers/streaming could be also, it wouldn't renew my faith in TiVo and stop me from looking elsewhere for better solutions for recording TV.


----------



## jvandecar

Blockbuster and TiVo merge.


----------



## bwld123

jvandecar said:


> Blockbuster and TiVo merge.


never


----------



## keirgrey

jvandecar said:


> Blockbuster and TiVo merge.


*hums the chorus to a Billy Joel tune* "And we will all go down together."


----------



## Mikeyis4dcats

schwinn said:


> Agreed... Vuze is a nice alternative. I will note that my TivoHD choked on a Vuze-delivered video at one point, and completely crashed and rebooted the machine in the process. I ended up watching it on the PS3 instead with no issues...
> 
> I presume you're having better luck than I did with Vuze to TivoHD?


I've watched a dozen or so files....works great.


----------



## ozdoc

jvandecar said:


> Blockbuster and TiVo merge.


They've just announced an annulment of their relationship here in Australia. 
Blockbuster is formally moving out on March 5th and going their own way.


----------



## innocentfreak

hmm wonder if that is due to the March 2nd announcement.


----------



## MikeAndrews

ozdoc said:


> They've just announced an annulment of their relationship here in Australia.
> Blockbuster is formally moving out on March 5th and going their own way.


I thought Blockbuster already had the direct-to-PC streaming service as NetFlix did. TiVo just made it compatible.


----------



## ozdoc

netringer said:


> I thought Blockbuster already had the direct-to-PC streaming service as NetFlix did.


Not on our side of the planet..


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

innocentfreak said:


> Amazon has cut prices but still has stock and I don't know of anyway to see how many they actually have.


Minor update... FWIW, as of this post Amazon's listing shows "Only 5 left in stock--order soon" on the regular THDs. Plenty of other merchants are still listed, but I guess their own stock is dwindling.

Stock sometimes re-appears, but that's the story at the moment.


----------



## hoyty

I am wondering if it might be something like a home DVR server with lower cost streaming extenders for MRV. This would allow for lower cable costs since you could have a single Cable Card. Also if the extenders streamed instead of copied it would get around the Copy Never flag problem that some have. If it were something like this the question would be would TiVo try to profit of the hardware of extenders or a monthly fee per extender?

I am waiting for the new cable card tuners to be released to make a Windows 7 version of this with XBox 360.


----------



## bschuler2007

I get a cookie if I guess right.. but I am guessing it is gonna be a new RCN, Bestbuy, Tivo box all in one with just different badging and logo on menu screens based on a hardware id. It will have some new addons integrating Facebook, Tweets, etc..

It will run faster but....
The main new "feature" will be that it reads closed captioning for hashes that spring up flash based ads on the Tivo during tv programs product placements and ads during skip forward, etc.

Used TivoHD and Series 3 prices will skyrocket in the short term.


----------



## Southcross

innocentfreak said:


> I *wish* TiVo would tease more.


fixed

I keep checking, at least weekly, for something... anything 

*pleads to the TiVo gods* please let it be an inexpensive box with 320-500gb of recording space


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Amazon is OOS. Funny next in-stock date.


----------



## Southcross

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Amazon is OOS. Funny next in-stock date.


not sure if its the same one I'm seeing... but it appears that its been "de-inventoried" and only shows for sale from "alternative" sellers like Tiger Direct:
http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD65216...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1266532985&sr=8-1


----------



## AbMagFab

Southcross said:


> not sure if its the same one I'm seeing... but it appears that its been "de-inventoried" and only shows for sale from "alternative" sellers like Tiger Direct:
> http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD65216...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1266532985&sr=8-1


Look at the lower right - it lists Amazon as 3/4.


----------



## Southcross

AbMagFab said:


> Look at the lower right - it lists Amazon as 3/4.


ahhh... nm


----------



## treaty

I keep seeing people say here that TiVo loses money on every box they sell - that they're taking a loss on the hardware in order to get subscribers.

Can someone substantiate this? At $12 a month for service - how many months do they need to keep a customer to re-coup their hardware loss?

The original price of the TiVo HD was $299. I mean what's inside the thing that adds up to more than that cost (from a hardware perspective)? You can get a DELL Zino HD box for $50 less than that - and it seems to me the Zino has a faster processor and more ram than a TiVo HD would have... not to mention there's the cost of a DVD drive and a Windows license rolled in there too (which would not be part of the TiVo HD overhead cost). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to compare the two - I'm just wondering what's in the TiVo HD that would make it's production cost so high?


----------



## innocentfreak

One of the costs which isn't inside the box is getting cable labs certification. Then there is the cost of the broadcom chipset. There is the cost of the hardware which TiVo most likely gets nowhere near the discount Dell does since they don't order in as large of bulk. 

I don't believe anyone has a true breakdown on what the box actually costs TiVo and I want to say the loss on hardware was taken from some of the conference calls.

My guess would be they probably turn a profit under a year just based off the contract time. Don't forget they also have to pay for the guide data. Previously had to maintain the phonelines and everything else for daily calls for guide data though I would imagine some of this is cheaper now with broadband.


----------



## bkdtv

treaty said:


> Can someone substantiate this? At $12 a month for service - how many months do they need to keep a customer to re-coup their hardware loss?


Sure. Just look at TiVo's balance sheet. In the quarter ending October 31, TiVo sold $14.4 million in hardware for $9.8 million. For every dollar in hardware sold, they spent $1.46.



treaty said:


> The original price of the TiVo HD was $299.


Keep in mind that the bulk of sales come at retail and through online vendors like Amazon.com. TiVo does not receive anything close to $299 on those sales. When the TiVo was released in 2007, Best Buy paid around $215 per unit, and they are surely paying less now. Amazon might pay $170 and TiVo would receive somewhat less after accounting for distribution costs.

If Amazon is paying $170 per box, that puts TiVo's cost at around $250.



treaty said:


> I mean what's inside the thing that adds up to more than that cost (from a hardware perspective)?


TiVo specifications from stickied FAQ:


> Broadcom BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-1 decoders _(Same CPU as the DirecTV HR21/22/23 and Dish ViP612 DVRs)_
> 256MB DDR400 SDRAM (4x NANYA NT5DS32M16BS-5U)
> 160GB Western Digital WD1600AVBS (standard TivoHD); 1TB Western Digital WD10EVVS (TivoHD XL)
> 2x MicroTune MT2131 tuners
> 2x AMD Theater 314 QAM/VSB demodulators
> 2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs
> 1x VIXS XCode 2115 IC w/ dedicated 32MB DDR400 SDRAM (2x NANYA NT5DS8M16FS-5T)
> CableCard interface
> 2x [email protected] encoders
> 
> Silicon Image SiI5723 Dual SATA controller
> Xilinx Spartan-3 XC3S200 FPGA
> 2x CableCard slots
> A/V Inputs: 1x antenna coax, 1x cable coax (both split internally)
> A/V Outputs: HDMI, component, s-video, composite, optical digital, stereo
> 10/100Mbps Ethernet
> RJ45 phone jack
> eSATA
> 2x USB
> TiVo IR remote
> 16.5"W x 12.625"D x 3.375"H
> 9.0 lbs


----------



## daveak

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Amazon is OOS. Funny next in-stock date.


Look who is teasing us now...  Coincidence? Would not be the first time Amazon has let something slip about something. So the release date for hardware is March 4th?


----------



## innocentfreak

That would definitely work for me.

It kind of bothers me though that they are reusing the same info so far almost like it is a re-release of the same model.


----------



## Luckyp79

I am not so sure that is a slip up. I mean it may just be coincidental or something. It looks like my TiVo HD and hat is what the product description says so I am not so sure of a slip up. I mean they are announcing something on the 2nd but does it have to be a new box? Most likely is but it doesn't have to be.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Some had suggested that March 2nd might bring only content or software announcements. I posted the Amazon listing just to show that the evidence of new hardware is slowly trickling in. (Amazon marked the XL as OOS briefly last week as well.) I think most of us already agree there will likely be new hardware. But for the few holdouts, the doubt should be fading.

The March 4th date could just be an innocent 2-week placeholder until their system gets the newest information (retire this model, new SKU on date xx/yy/zz). Can't read into it too closely yet, although a 3/4 shipment wouldn't draw complaints from me.


----------



## Luckyp79

I am really pumped for this announcement. I am hoping big. I don't usually get excited for this type of stuff but for whatever reason this time I am.

I love the speculation around this one. This could change TV once again, or it could be the same run of the mill releases.

March 2nd here we come. TiVo announcement plus a video game release all on the same day.


----------



## MikeAndrews

treaty said:


> I keep seeing people say here that TiVo loses money on every box they sell - that they're taking a loss on the hardware in order to get subscribers.
> 
> Can someone substantiate this? At $12 a month for service - how many months do they need to keep a customer to re-coup their hardware loss?
> 
> The original price of the TiVo HD was $299. I mean what's inside the thing that adds up to more than that cost (from a hardware perspective)? ...


For one thing Dell sells several million of each model just by having it. TiVo sells a few hundred thousand. So the economies of scale aren't the same. For another, Dell uses off the shelf components for the most part where TiVo only has a handful that aren't special made.

We can guess that TiVo gets a few bucks more than the subscriber fee, from advertising and more than that, any clicks the user makes to the special ad content and more than that, when they order. They also get paid for the stats by such as Nielsen. My guess is the ads and stats are a few cents per sub, but clicks are a few bucks per and orders are a lot more.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The March 4th date could just be an innocent 2-week placeholder...


Or not. Amazon's listing is completely removed now. Showing only other merchants.


----------



## innocentfreak

I wonder if Tivo clued them in since they do supposedly monitor this forum still even though they no longer post.


----------



## CrispyCritter

treaty said:


> I keep seeing people say here that TiVo loses money on every box they sell - that they're taking a loss on the hardware in order to get subscribers.
> 
> Can someone substantiate this? At $12 a month for service - how many months do they need to keep a customer to re-coup their hardware loss?


They have custom chips on a custom motherboard, and they don't have their own assembling factories - manufacturing is contracted out. They don't have the volume to get cheap prices.

Just guessing from overall accounting figures, the cost of manufacture is about 30% more than revenue from manufacture. That's wholesale revenue which guessing at margins is probably a bit under $200. So that's about $50-$60 in extra costs. They report between $7-$8 in net revenue (above their costs for services) per sub per month, thus it takes 8 months of service to break even on the hardware cost (and start paying for overhead, research, and things like that).

My numbers could be way off; there's all kinds of things we don't know, like mixture of sales between retail and direct, and mixture of sales of types of TiVo (they make a profit on the HDXL), and what the wholesale price is.

Edit: whoops: I didn't see the posts on a new page and now see that bkdtv did the same analysis! Good to know that we ended up in the same ballpark, although he substantiated his figures much more thoroughly than I did. I do think there's a slight overestimation of costs - third quarter manufacturing costs are a bit higher than normal as they ramp up inventory for the holiday season.


----------



## lew

A couple of posters provided good information. You can also look at it from the commitment side. Tivo is sold with a 12 month commitment, cell phones generally have a 2 year commitment. That suggests tivo re-coups their hardware loss in under a year.



treaty said:


> I keep seeing people say here that TiVo loses money on every box they sell - that they're taking a loss on the hardware in order to get subscribers.
> 
> Can someone substantiate this? At $12 a month for service - how many months do they need to keep a customer to re-coup their hardware loss?


----------



## rainwater

lew said:


> That suggests tivo re-coups their hardware loss in under a year.


It's really funny when people say things like this. It's like the break down of the iPad hardware cost. The cost of the hardware is only a portion of the entire operating costs. A lot of development and resources go into developing hardware and software. You can't just put out a date when TiVo recoups the hardware costs on a user because frankly, that isn't the value TiVo puts to it.


----------



## MikeAndrews

lew said:


> ... That suggests tivo re-coups their hardware loss in under a year.


Although it applies less and less now, I like to point out that the network doesn't cost $0. In the days when every TiVo was dialing in, UUNet and others were getting something like $5 a month per sub from such as AOL and other ISPs _and TiVo_. Now that they connect more with broadband it's mostly the same IP infrastructure costs as having web sites.


----------



## daveak

On the Amazon March 4th date, could it be possible that it will be the same hardware released with a new UI and well updated software? I think this is less likely, but still within the realm of possibility. Many of us seem to think that the current S3 architecture could handle a full HD interface without much fuss. And other software teaks and changes could happen all at once.

Even less likely, but I would think still possible, would be just a 'new' software release on this date. Windows comes out with 'new' (don't want to argue how 'new' or just tweaked they really are) software every few years. Older comps can certainly run windows 7, just not as fast or maybe without every possible feature. I love speculating, but I can't believe it would be beyond the realm of possible offerings from TiVo.

Or maybe 'new' software for all series 3 type boxes, which would still be sold (at least for a little while), and also a newer faster model which has hardware that can make full use of the new software features. TiVo is really just a Linux based computer that saves media content to (a) hard drive(s).

I am starting to lean strongly towards some great new software, that may not work fully or certainly at its best, on the series 3 models. I think it is more likely TiVo will only sell new 'premier' type boxes though, I think they really need to offer as few models as possible to keep production costs down so selling more than two box types seems rather unlikely.

Either way, it is certainly fun to speculate.


----------



## turbobozz

I would rather have a simple, responsive UI than an HD UI with bells and whistles that is slow like TiVo Search.
I really don't want to see my S3 slow down anymore than it already is... I'd be seriously upset if TiVo forced a slower UI onto my S3.


----------



## innocentfreak

According to the tipsters the new ui started out as fixes for the series 3. Also it is supposed to be much faster similar to the series 2.


----------



## dswallow

rainwater said:


> It's really funny when people say things like this. It's like the break down of the iPad hardware cost. The cost of the hardware is only a portion of the entire operating costs. A lot of development and resources go into developing hardware and software. You can't just put out a date when TiVo recoups the hardware costs on a user because frankly, that isn't the value TiVo puts to it.


You can certainly put a date on when the average direct hardware costs per subscribed unit are recouped. It may not represent accounting for R&D, overhead and other development costs, but it's still a reasonably good thing to know. But it may have no direct relationship to any minimum commitment.


----------



## DocNo

mfogarty5 said:


> The whole point of a DVR is to time shift your viewing so you can watch what you want to watch on your schedule.
> 
> Now you think people are all going to sit around and watch in real time so they can chat about it with their friends?!? You don't need a DVR to do that!


Hehe - yup!

Now I will admit the ability with Netflix on the Xbox 360 to hold MST3K style parties while everyone in a group watches the same film is cool - but I've only done it once - because it is very inconvenient to get everyone synced up to watch something, esp. something long like a movie, at the same time.

I can see people commenting on what they watch - but they can do that now without some fancy new paradigm


----------



## DocNo

snash22 said:


> IBM & MS were developing OS/2 together. I thought that Windows was stolen by MS from the partnership MS and IBM had.


No, MS was developing Windows while also partnering with IBM on OS/2 - they then left IBM high and dry. Not that IBM is blameless - they made their own share of mistakes that prevented OS/2 from taking off.


----------



## reubanks

DocNo said:


> No, MS was developing Windows while also partnering with IBM on OS/2 - they then left IBM high and dry. Not that IBM is blameless - they made their own share of mistakes that prevented OS/2 from taking off.


While this is technically correct, Windows was in the works for years before the MS/IBM partnership and Windows 1.0 shipped just a couple of months after the partnership was signed. (It was announced about 2 years before the partnership.)

Randy


----------



## AbMagFab

DocNo said:


> Hehe - yup!
> 
> Now I will admit the ability with Netflix on the Xbox 360 to hold MST3K style parties while everyone in a group watches the same film is cool - but I've only done it once - because it is very inconvenient to get everyone synced up to watch something, esp. something long like a movie, at the same time.
> 
> I can see people commenting on what they watch - but they can do that now without some fancy new paradigm


You're not reading what's being written here, and you're not understanding. It's not at all real-time viewing/chatting.


----------



## Wil

snash22 said:


> I thought that Windows was stolen by MS from the partnership MS and IBM had.


Apple had given Microsoft, long pre-release, code for the GUI, and crates of Macintosh computers. They did not give the same to IBM.


----------



## brewman

All the hypothetical new features sound fantastic, but how about a DVR that doesn't lockup on a weekly basis for unknown (not hard drive related) issues.


----------



## T1V0

brewman said:


> All the hypothetical new features sound fantastic, but how about a DVR that doesn't lockup on a weekly basis for unknown (not hard drive related) issues.


i've got a few of those


----------



## T1V0

AbMagFab said:


> You're not reading what's being written here, and you're not understanding. It's not at all real-time viewing/chatting.


it's still dumb though


----------



## aaronwt

brewman said:


> All the hypothetical new features sound fantastic, but how about a DVR that doesn't lockup on a weekly basis for unknown (not hard drive related) issues.


I've got nine of those. It's called TiVo. I have three Series 3 and six TiVoHD boxes. No lockups here.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

aaronwt said:


> I've got nine of those. It's called TiVo. I have three Series 3 and six TiVoHD boxes. No lockups here.


But what do you do when there are more than 18 shows on that you want to record?!?


----------



## AbMagFab

T1V0 said:


> it's still dumb though


Said the old man, as everything passed him by...


----------



## innocentfreak

Looking around online, I am thinking we are getting a version of Caspa which is supposed to go to the ad supported version in April 2010 for Australia with an updated Tivo with a 320gb drive. The reason behind the new Tivo hardware will also be cost cutting, but to improve the streaming to better implement this new VOD service.



> But starting April next year, HybridTV plans on introducing an advertising module, which will allow you to download favorite TV shows for free, in return for watching three 30 second ads  one at the start, one in the middle, and one at the end of each episode. Youll be able to choose between paying $1.95 or getting the ep with ads for free. Whats more, the ads will be interactive, allowing you to enter competitions or receive free stuff, depending on the advertisers wishes. You dont have to interact, but you can if you want  itll just pause your show while you do.


Then again I may be completely off and just guessing based off boredom.


----------



## aaronwt

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But what do you do when there are more than 18 shows on that you want to record?!?


I use my USB PC tuners


----------



## larrs

I would think the new hardware will be announced as faster, with 1080p/24 support and a new HD UI. Then, the sky's the limit for new aps, among them I am hoping for Vudu and other 1080p services as well as some killer tie ins with networks, film studios, etc.

I would love on the fly conversion to mpeg4 as it records in order to effectively double capacity as well as make file sizes smaller to move around the house, but you tech experts can correct me if that is a real pipe dream on my part.


----------



## DocNo

AbMagFab said:


> You're not reading what's being written here, and you're not understanding. It's not at all real-time viewing/chatting.


Ok, but if you are talking within the confines of time-shifting, now you have major spoiler possibilities! Either way it's just not as feasible as I think some of you are imagining.

I just don't see it being that much of a special need over existing social media solutions that are already out there, and certainly not a compelling enough feature set to woo someone to Tivo vs. some other solution.


----------



## wmcbrine

larrs said:


> I would love on the fly conversion to mpeg4 as it records in order to effectively double capacity as well as make file sizes smaller to move around the house, but you tech experts can correct me if that is a real pipe dream on my part.


It's theoretically possible, but they're not going to do it.


----------



## Luckyp79

larrs said:


> 1080p/24 support.


I have never looked but I heard that if took a flashlight and looked at the display of the HD box that you would infact see 1080p as an option. Not that it is activated but it is in there. Like I said I never looked but I heard it is there. So if it is in there then its just a SW update away, right?


----------



## BlackBetty

9 more days!! I can't wait.


----------



## lessd

Luckyp79 said:


> I have never looked but I heard that if took a flashlight and looked at the display of the HD box that you would infact see 1080p as an option. Not that it is activated but it is in there. Like I said I never looked but I heard it is there. So if it is in there then its just a SW update away, right?


I don't think its just software as I don't know where the TiVo is going to get 1080P material from at a bit rate that is equal to Blue Ray, 1080I can go as high as 19K bits/sec (about 8.5G/hour record space). Blue ray quality must be higher (only a guess on my part)


----------



## Luckyp79

lessd said:


> I don't think its just software as I don't know where the TiVo is going to get 1080P material from at a bit rate that is equal to Blue Ray, 1080I can go as high as 19K bits/sec (about 8.5G/hour record space). Blue ray quality must be higher (only a guess on my part)


Even with a normal HD box from my cable company I would only get 1080i. I can see a HDUI being displayed in 1080p. Not necessary though. So I am not sure either where they would find content in 1080p.


----------



## Brainiac 5

Luckyp79 said:


> Even with a normal HD box from my cable company I would only get 1080i. I can see a HDUI being displayed in 1080p. Not necessary though. So I am not sure either where they would find content in 1080p.


Probably downloadable content (from something like Netflix, Blockbuster, Amazon, etc.).


----------



## MichaelK

1080p 24fps probably isn't going to be a vastly different bitrate than 1080i 60fps.

could be downloaded content. Could be that some cable movie channel at some point goes to 1080p 24fps (or they encode such that 'pulldown' correction would make 1080p 24fps looks good to match the original film)


----------



## aaronwt

lessd said:


> I don't think its just software as I don't know where the TiVo is going to get 1080P material from at a bit rate that is equal to Blue Ray, 1080I can go as high as 19K bits/sec (about 8.5G/hour record space). Blue ray quality must be higher (only a guess on my part)


VUDU HDX titles look superb. the only thing better out there has been from a BD.

The VUDU HDX titles are 1080P24 MPEG4 encoded at a 9 to 10mbs bitrate.


----------



## mfogarty5

DocNo said:


> Ok, but if you are talking within the confines of time-shifting, now you have major spoiler possibilities! Either way it's just not as feasible as I think some of you are imagining.
> 
> I just don't see it being that much of a special need over existing social media solutions that are already out there, and certainly not a compelling enough feature set to woo someone to Tivo vs. some other solution.


DocNo,

I tried reasoning with AbMagFab, but it seems that after 3,400 posts he has forgotten the primary purpose of a DVR which is to time shift programming so that users can watch a program when they want to. He has gotten bored with watching recorded programming so he is searching for something "cool" and "magical".

By its very definition, time shifting of programming is incompatible with social networking no matter how many times he calls the group of us that disagrees with him a bunch of dinosaurs and relics of the past.

How many people on this board have had to tell friends and family NOT TO COMMUNICATE with them until at least 2 hours after games so that they don't ruin the suspense?!? That's anti-social networking!!

If TiVo spent anytime on social networking, then it was a colossal waste of shareholder resources.

I remember when people like AbMagFab said in 1999 that anyone who wasn't fully invested in tech stocks was a dinosaur too. 

TiVo needs to give people a reason to buy their product over renitng the cable company DVR which they can do on both the hardware and software fronts.

On the hardware front, they need to release a box that uses the latest broadcom chips that can upsacle all content to 1080p60 and has Moca built-in so that no additional wiring or wireless adapters are needed.

On the software front they need to revamp their dated GUI so that it is truly HD.

If they want something "cool" then they could have "apps" like recorded tv, Hulu, Amazon and Netflix. They also need to work with cable companies to let them use the SeaChange software to implement VOD on a TiVo without tru2way.

They also need to have multi-room streaming and scheduling.

What I listed are true features that will get people to buy a 3rd party DVR unlike this social networking nonsense which people can already do with their laptops and cell phones.


----------



## nrc

mfogarty5 said:


> DocNo,
> 
> I tried reasoning with AbMagFab, but it seems that after 3,400 posts he has forgotten the primary purpose of a DVR which is to time shift programming so that users can watch a program when they want to. He has gotten bored with watching recorded programming so he is searching for something "cool" and "magical".
> 
> By its very definition, time shifting of programming is incompatible with social networking no matter how many times he calls the group of us that disagrees with him a bunch of dinosaurs and relics of the past.


For a feature like this to be compatible with time shifting that they would have to tag comments with a time code so that you would only see them at that time code. Of course that removes the interactivity of it if you're not watching at the same time. Trying to deal with comments from friends who are both ahead of and behind you while watching a show would be a mess even if it's made to avoid spoilers.

One use that I could see for this, assuming that it could be activated after the fact, would be the equivalent of director's commentary from people involved in the production, critics, etc.


----------



## Wil

nrc said:


> the equivalent of director's commentary


From everybody who watched. That would be fun.


----------



## Riverdome

mfogarty5 said:


> DocNo,
> 
> If TiVo spent anytime on social networking, then it was a colossal waste of shareholder resources.


I will disagree with this comment to an extent. I would like a way, through existing social networking tools OR otherwise, to recomend shows to friends and family. To me this is social networking. I don't need to be able to 'chat' other than to maybe include a line or two explaining why I'm recomending the show.

I suppose I'll even go a step further. If we can stream from Hulu or other non-network sources why not allow a friend to stream from my Tivo? Yes it uses my upload pipe (my problem) but would be a way to get that missed episode to a friend. I know, I know [/PIPE DREAM]


----------



## innocentfreak

Riverdome said:


> I suppose I'll even go a step further. If we can stream from Hulu or other non-network sources why not allow a friend to stream from my Tivo? Yes it uses my upload pipe (my problem) but would be a way to get that missed episode to a friend. I know, I know [/PIPE DREAM]


The problem being then is your friend subscribed to that channel? If not should they still be able to see it? If so how do you handle commercials?


----------



## mbalgeman

innocentfreak said:


> The problem being then is your friend subscribed to that channel? If not should they still be able to see it? If so how do you handle commercials?


I actually think it's a fairly interesting idea and I think they would be able to do things to get the networks to agree.

For example, the TiVo knows what you are subscribed to at any given time because it's got the cable card in there, right? So TiVo could limit it to people that are authorized to watch the same channel as the show was recorded on. They could also limit the shows that can be transferred to shows that were recorded in the last 7 days, for instance. Then, they can put a auto-delete after 7 days flag on that program. And they could, additionally, make it so commercials couldn't be skipped for that show that was transferred out of the house.

For example, I missed the season opener of Survivor. I wanted to record it but forgot. I'm too lazy to find someone to get a copy from, so I just skip it and maybe just skip watching the whole season because I missed the opening episode. Instead, I would think that CBS would like it if I could get a copy of it from my brother, who didn't forget to record it. TiVo could make sure that I am able to watch the same CBS affiliate, thus allowing me to transfer the show the next day when I realize I missed recording it.

I would think that networks would generally agree to something like that. The problem is that they would probably need to get every network to agree to something like that and would probably need to get an agreement per show. For instance, I don't think the NFL would take too kindly to their shows being transferred around, even if the person receiving the game could have recorded it when it was on. So it would probably need to be on a series by series basis.

As far as the social networking stuff goes... There are lots of devices and services that "tweet" these days. Slacker can be setup to tweet when you "heart" a song or "ban" a song. I could see similar functionality from the TiVo. Tweet (or post to Facebook/whatever) when I setup a new season pass. Tweet when I give something a thumbs up/down. Tweet when I delete a season pass. That type of stuff. I wouldn't be into it, but I can see that being a pretty popular feature.

What I would see more useful, however, is more of the Netflix-like style of social "networking". If I could somehow setup some people as friends and when I'm looking at the details of a show/series see what those friends think of that series/movie etc, I think that would be useful. Allow me to look at my friend's ratings for shows. Maybe allow me to take a look at my friends queue, I mean, season pass list. That seems like a much more interesting route to me.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

mbalgeman said:


> I actually think it's a fairly interesting idea and I think they would be able to do things to get the networks to agree.


TiVo tried this with MRV when it was out - even limited to 10 friends setup in a list so it could not be used in a widespread way. 
The NFL filed with the FCC as strongly opposed based on game blackouts and so forth. Content owners filed as strongly opposed based on their own stubborness to loosen the grip on content.

This would be a waste of TiVo resources as they would have a long, protracted legal battle no matter how many controls they put on the idea.


----------



## solutionsetc

mbalgeman said:


> For example, I missed the season opener of Survivor. I wanted to record it but forgot. I'm too lazy to find someone to get a copy from, so I just skip it and maybe just skip watching the whole season because I missed the opening episode. Instead, I would think that CBS would like it if I could get a copy of it from my brother, who didn't forget to record it. TiVo could make sure that I am able to watch the same CBS affiliate, thus allowing me to transfer the show the next day when I realize I missed recording it.
> 
> I would think that networks would generally agree to something like that it would probably need to be on a series by series basis.


I think you give the networks too much credit. Replay TV did this a number of years ago and were sued out of existence for it. Of course Replay didn't bother to get the network's approval, but I find it difficult to believe the networks are interested in spending resources to make timeshifting their shows more convenient for DVR owners.

It used to be all about market share, and how it relates to advertising revenue. If that was the case now, I am truly puzzled why networks charge a fee for programming to cable companies. Now, it seems it is about squeezing money from any avenue they can get away with.

I would be willing to bet that if the networks did come up with a plan for sharing shows, there would be a per show fee involved, so why not just buy the show from iTunes or a similar service.


----------



## MikeAndrews

BigJimOutlaw said:


> ...The March 4th date could just be an innocent 2-week placeholder until their system gets the newest information (retire this model, new SKU on date xx/yy/zz). Can't read into it too closely yet, although a 3/4 shipment wouldn't draw complaints from me.





BigJimOutlaw said:


> Or not. Amazon's listing is completely removed now. Showing only other merchants.


Amazon and Amazon in other countries have been known to let the cat of the bag on new products until the listing is pulled - even invoking the wrath of His Steveness hisself. Amazon is so deeply automated they probably have a hard time marking listings for go live dates.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

solutionsetc said:


> It used to be all about market share, and how it relates to advertising revenue. If that was the case now, I am truly puzzled why networks charge a fee for programming to cable companies. Now, it seems it is about squeezing money from any avenue they can get away with.
> 
> so why not just buy the show from iTunes or a similar service.


you give the exact answer the cable companies are thinking of except tha tfrom their perspective it would be "why not just *sell* the show from iTunes or their own service.

I think we will see content anouncements(though TiVo has closely guarded what if anything it is) but it will be about _getting_ more content options - not about trading content away


----------



## mbalgeman

ZeoTiVo said:


> This would be a waste of TiVo resources as they would have a long, protracted legal battle no matter how many controls they put on the idea.


Correct. I covered most of this in my initial post. TiVo would need to ask permission instead of forgiveness to make anything like this work.



solutionsetc said:


> I think you give the networks too much credit. Replay TV did this a number of years ago and were sued out of existence for it. Of course Replay didn't bother to get the network's approval, but I find it difficult to believe the networks are interested in spending resources to make timeshifting their shows more convenient for DVR owners.


Well, more and more networks are making their shows available in full on the internet with forced advertising. I think that we are close to networks realizing that they could force advertising on someone like a TiVo user to watch a show that they forgot to time-shift on their own TiVo. Perhaps the "fee" for allowing a transfer of this nature isn't a fee per show, but a instead a downloaded force advertisement from the network. Of coarse, this all become moot if something like Hulu on TiVo becomes reality or the networks create their own content delivery service that TiVo can tap into.

BTW, I doubt the announcement will have anything to do with anything like this...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

mbalgeman said:


> Correct. I covered most of this in my initial post. TiVo would need to ask permission instead of forgiveness to make anything like this work.


I saw that, but even asking would be a waste of time.

Now getting feeds from abc.com or nbc.com straight to the TiVo - that would be a win-win assuming TiVo and the content owner could come to workable terms for both sides


----------



## solutionsetc

ZeoTiVo said:


> you give the exact answer the cable companies are thinking of except tha tfrom their perspective it would be "why not just *sell* the show from iTunes or their own service.


Except for the fact that I am looking to purchase as little as possible from my cable company due to their lousy service and the way their pricing structure is designed to nickel and dime you to death. I pay for four outlets, but live alone. What is the sense in that?

In fact, nothing would give me greater satisfaction than giving Comcast the entire heave ho but unfortunately, I am married to them for my Internet pipe because there is no other provider in my area.


----------



## AbMagFab

mfogarty5 said:


> By its very definition, time shifting of programming is incompatible with social networking no matter how many times he calls the group of us that disagrees with him a bunch of dinosaurs and relics of the past.


No it's not. There is nothing that says "social networking is real time". I have no idea where you are getting your frame of reference, but it sounds like either being stuck in time, or a lack of understanding of the medium.



> I remember when people like AbMagFab said in 1999 that anyone who wasn't fully invested in tech stocks was a dinosaur too.


I think a more relevent example was 4 years ago when people said "a cell phone should be just for making phone calls - no one wants applications on them! People can just use their laptop for that!"



> What I listed are true features that will get people to buy a 3rd party DVR unlike this social networking nonsense which people can already do with their laptops and cell phones.


Thanks for making my point.

The reason you sound like a "relic" (your term, not mine) is that you are making statements saying that the current state of social networking is the end state. That Facebook and Twitter is "it". That it will never change, never adapt, and as a result, Tivo should stay away from it.

I've tried multiple times to help you open your mind a little, but that seems an impossible task. A few people here who posted responses seem to get it, which is great.

But there's also a big reason why <1% of the population is capable of being leaders and instituting real change...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

solutionsetc said:


> Except for the fact that I am looking to purchase as little as possible from my cable company due to their lousy service and the way their pricing structure is designed to nickel and dime you to death. I pay for four outlets, but live alone. What is the sense in that?
> 
> In fact, nothing would give me greater satisfaction than giving Comcast the entire heave ho but unfortunately, I am married to them for my Internet pipe because there is no other provider in my area.


except that your complaint, which is legitimate to you, is not a reason for Comcast to stop trying to get revenue from any source of content they provide.

It is a bummer, but there it is.


----------



## solutionsetc

ZeoTiVo said:


> except that your complaint, which is legitimate to you, is not a reason for Comcast to stop trying to get revenue from any source of content they provide.


Granted, but the key word here is "provide". Which doesn't always mean the same thing as pass along. I don't mind paying for the pipe, what bugs me is having to be forced into tiers of service in which I'm paying for a lot of services I don't use.

I live in hope that the FTC will eventually remove the stranglehold that cable companies have on customers who have literally no other alternative and be able to purchase only the services that I actually use preferably from the "providers" themselves.


----------



## MichaelK

solutionsetc said:


> Granted, but the key word here is "provide". Which doesn't always mean the same thing as pass along. I don't mind paying for the pipe, what bugs me is having to be forced into tiers of service in which I'm paying for a lot of services I don't use.
> 
> I live in hope that the FTC will eventually remove the stranglehold that cable companies have on customers who have literally no other alternative and be able to purchase only the services that I actually use preferably from the "providers" themselves.


Its not clear to me that such a thing would for sure be better.
Who knows what prices channels would need to charge if only the people that actually cared about that channel where to pay for it? It might mean scores of channels going out of business because the price they would HAVE to charge to stay in business wouldnt be borne by the consumers. (it may not just be the knitting channel that folds- people might love their RSNs but instead of 2 bucks for every cable household they might need to charge $10 bucks for the ones that actually want it- if it was 10 bucks would that drive demand down and then the price would be 15 bucks a month? And the death spiral would begin)

So in the end rather than watching 15 of 300 channels for 60 bucks we might wind up with only 10 channels we watch surviving for 50 bucks.

Of course it might up that the 15 channels my family wants survive and we only way 15 bucks for them all, but who knows what such a huge change might bring.

I guess the limited a la carte offered by Sirius/xm might be some kind of an indicator of how things might work out.

all that said- I think I could get by with just my RSN (even if it was say 20 bucks) and OTA. But who knows what the broadband price would be without a triple play package...


----------



## rainwater

MichaelK said:


> Who knows what prices channels would need to charge if only the people that actually cared about that channel where to pay for it? It might mean scores of channels going out of business because the price they would HAVE to charge to stay in business wouldnt be borne by the consumers.


This is the most likely scenario. There are lots of cable channels who rely on cable company fees to stay afloat and not ad revenue alone. So the smaller cable channels would end up getting pushed out of ala carte pricing because I doubt they would be able to charge a premium fee.


----------



## MickeS

mfogarty5 said:


> *What I listed are true features that will get people to buy a 3rd party DVR *unlike this social networking nonsense which people can already do with their laptops and cell phones.


They can get ALL of what you list by using the "free" cable DVR. What you listed are features that wouldn't even get the CEO of Comcast to buy TiVo, and I bet he has enough money to do it.  OK, the networking part maybe, but they have that NOW and it's not enough. Better tech simply is not enough to get people to buy.

If there's ANYTHING that the last 10 years have shown us when it comes tech it's... I'll let you answer. What would you say has been the major revolution in how people use technology over the last decade?


----------



## solutionsetc

rainwater said:


> This is the most likely scenario. There are lots of cable channels who rely on cable company fees to stay afloat and not ad revenue alone. So the smaller cable channels would end up getting pushed out of ala carte pricing because I doubt they would be able to charge a premium fee.





MichaelK said:


> Its not clear to me that such a thing would for sure be better.
> Who knows what prices channels would need to charge if only the people that actually cared about that channel where to pay for it? It might mean scores of channels going out of business because the price they would HAVE to charge to stay in business wouldnt be borne by the consumers.


Well guys I guess that's kind of my point. I'm not interested in subsidizing a bunch of crappy cable channels, whose sole purpose is to continually run reruns of lousy TV shows that didn't make it past one or two seasons in the first place. For people that want all this junk, let them pay for it. I don't need it or want it, and I'm certainly not interested in paying for any of it.

I may be in the minority here, not wanting 100 different channels to surf through, but I'm guessing a lot of DVR users feel similarly.


----------



## MickeS

solutionsetc said:


> Well guys&#8230; I guess that's kind of my point. I'm not interested in subsidizing a bunch of crappy cable channels, whose sole purpose is to continually run reruns of lousy TV shows that didn't make it past one or two seasons in the first place. For people that want all this junk, let them pay for it. I don't need it or want it, and I'm certainly not interested in paying for any of it.
> 
> I may be in the minority here, not wanting 100 different channels to surf through, but I'm guessing a lot of DVR users feel similarly.


I'm with you 100%. The vast majority of cable channels don't deserve to be propped up by package pricing.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

solutionsetc said:


> I live in hope that the FTC will eventually remove the stranglehold that cable companies have on customers who have literally no other alternative and be able to purchase only the services that I actually use&#8230; preferably from the "providers" themselves.


there is no stranglehold, the NFL could decide to not do another contract when the current one expires and instead just provide all football content via the web. It is their content after all.

Same with cooking channel
same with golf, etc..

cable provides the most households and ease for people viewing the content, that is the true strnaglehold. Hopefully TiVo can continue its work on making broadband content just as easy to view as a cable channel.

if you choose to continue to pay for the upper tiers then why should the cable company choose to do anything different?


----------



## MichaelK

solutionsetc said:


> Well guys I guess that's kind of my point. I'm not interested in subsidizing a bunch of crappy cable channels, whose sole purpose is to continually run reruns of lousy TV shows that didn't make it past one or two seasons in the first place. For people that want all this junk, let them pay for it. I don't need it or want it, and I'm certainly not interested in paying for any of it.
> 
> I may be in the minority here, not wanting 100 different channels to surf through, but I'm guessing a lot of DVR users feel similarly.


I would imagine that just about every last one of us doesn't give a crap about 100 channels. We all probably want 10-20 channels. I'm pretty sure thjere are polls/.studies that show that most people dont watch more than a handful or 2 of channels.

The problem is it's so fragmented so who knows what 10 channels should survive.

you have your 10, I have my 10, and everyone else has their own 10 and they generally dont overlap too much.


----------



## MichaelK

MickeS said:


> I'm with you 100%. The vast majority of cable channels don't deserve to be propped up by package pricing.


unless it's a channel you happen to enjoy of course...


----------



## solutionsetc

ZeoTiVo said:


> if you choose to continue to pay for the upper tiers then why should the cable company choose to do anything different?


That is the whole point. I don't have a choice if I want ESPN; I have to subscribe to a tier with a 150 other crap channels that I don't even want in my guide (which is one of the reasons I chose TiVo).

AFAIAC no choice = stranglehold. How would you feel if the only place you could buy groceries only sold pineapple in a big fruit basket that was loaded with pomegranates, kiwi, and dates and of all of that you only like pineapple.

Of course I can go to another grocery store. But if I tell ComCast to go pound sand I can watch nothing or just get internet and pay an extra $20/month for it because that is what they charge if you aren't also a cable subscriber. To me that sounds an awful lot like if you were buying electricity and gas from PG&E and decided to invest in solar and discontinue the electrical, that you would be charged half again as much for the gas you would continue to purchase.

The PUC wouldn't let them get away with that and I think the PUC needs to take another long look at cable operators in markets where they are the ONLY game in town. Actually, the whole Cable Cos are not utilities thing has always escaped me as they have the exact same market advantages as a utility at least in my market they do.


----------



## solutionsetc

MichaelK said:


> unless it's a channel you happen to enjoy of course...


But majority rules. If there is a great show you love, but the majority of J6P TV watchers don't "get it", you're show is gonna be going away soon. Why should it be any different with cable channels?

Economics 101: supply and demand. But with cable packages demand is artificial and arbitrary.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

solutionsetc said:


> That is the whole point. I don't have a choice if I want ESPN; I have to subscribe to a tier with a 150 other crap channels that I don't even want in my guide (which is one of the reasons I chose TiVo).


it is ESPN that chose to make a deal with cable companies versus some other means of delivery (and is a bad example since it comes on extended basic cable)

The Government agencies really need to do little here. Market forces will prevail and the content owners are finding broadband available enough now to explore other avenues of delivery that cut out the middleman in the form of cable channels. Still it is important to note that it is ESPN that wants to be in the cable package as they see revenue in being placed that way.

anyway this is enough off topic that I am done posting about it here.


----------



## MichaelK

solutionsetc said:


> But majority rules. If there is a great show you love, but the majority of J6P TV watchers don't "get it", you're show is gonna be going away soon. Why should it be any different with cable channels?
> 
> Economics 101: supply and demand. But with cable packages demand is artificial and arbitrary.


if all you watch is the same as joe six pack- then why do you even have "cable TV"? The majority of what people watch is on the broadcast networks.

I'm all about the market working, but cable has developed into something totally different at this point. It's not at all market based and becasue of that a bunch of niche things have developed that people seem to enjoy.

There's like 10 news channels- so even if fox gets 50% of the market- that means half the people done want to watch that but rather would want something else. If we got rid of the current system- maybe 50% of the news watchers would be unhappy becasue only fox might survice.

The reasons why this happened dont really matter- the system we have is the system we have. So if there were some wholesale change things would be vastly different- and I'm not sure that people would like it any better- that's all.

as I said above- I think i could "get by" with just OTA and tivo's streaming partners, and then paying a la carte for my RSN.

But If my RSN costs 20 bucks, and my cable bill only goes down 30 bucks (becasue I dont have triple play so I loose that bundle price), I'm not sure I'm vastly better off to save 10 dollars a month but wind up giving up 500 channels of drivel that I might pick up a show a day between 'em.

and in the end I think that the internet and streaming is going to kill off the whole cable tier nonsense anyway- so it's really only a matter of time in my head. I guess the question at that point is if Disney sells in "bundles" still or do they let people buy JUST ESPN or JUST Disney channel?


----------



## lessd

TiVo is now packing the TiVo premiere Cable Card sheet in most of the newer TiVo-HD TiVos. From this sheet TiVo is going to introduce the TiVo Premiere and the TiVo Premiere XL (There is now only one manual for both the TiVo-HD and TiVo-HDXL). This new TiVo MUST use the M type CableCard, and as reported before no phone jack, visible fan, SVHS jack, and only a back single Cable Card slot. The pictures on this sheet of the UI looks the same as we have now. The height of the box is about 1/2 inch less than the TiVo-HDs 3 inches.
I guess we will know for sure in a week


----------



## brewman

aaronwt said:


> I've got nine of those. It's called TiVo. I have three Series 3 and six TiVoHD boxes. No lockups here.


I've got one. Unfortunately, that's only a 33% success rate since I have 2 TiVo HD's and one Series 3. The Series 3 is the one that doesn't lock up.

This is a longtime problem that for whatever reason TiVo hasn't addressed. Here's one of many threads relating to the problem: TiVo HD Lockups


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## innocentfreak

Per engadgethd new tivo premiere will be 299 and xl will be 499 per best buy computers and they are showing march 27th as the day. I am on my phone so I cant link the post.


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## janry

http://www.engadget.com/photos/best-buy-tivo-premiere-info/#2742404

1080P support

only a 90 day warranty (parts & labour). that doesn't sound right.


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## fatlard

Does on-demand indicate some type of Tru2Way?


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## Scyber

janry said:


> http://www.engadget.com/photos/best-buy-tivo-premiere-info/#2742404
> 
> 1080P support
> 
> only a 90 day warranty (parts & labour). that doesn't sound right.


Also looks like a 320GB harddrive on the Premiere. The Premiere XL appears to be 1TB just like the TivoHDXL.


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## dig_duggler

Ugh. Bigger hard drive, new UI and 1080p support (which no one broadcasts in)? Not many game changers there....


----------



## janry

dig_duggler said:


> Ugh. Bigger hard drive, new UI and 1080p support (which no one broadcasts in)? Not many game changers there....


and, apparently on-demand capability.

I'll stick with my HD.


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## dig_duggler

They've already got on-demand capability don't they (Amazon, youtube, etc)? So far the new stuff seems to be physical and a new UI.....


----------



## janry

dig_duggler said:


> They've already got on-demand capability don't they (Amazon, youtube, etc)?


Maybe that is what they mean. I was thinking more of cable TV on-demand.

EDIT: Yeah, it says "connects to your cable service and replaces your cable box" as a bullet point and right below that bullet says "To provide you access to a large selection on on-demand movies..."

Might be not what I'm thinking but this also might be a British box.


----------



## lew

You're (we're) not the subscribers getting screwed with the present system. The 150 crap channels we don't want cost the cable system little (or nothing) Some shopping and religious channels pay the cable company. Other channels charge so little cable inserted advertising offsets all (or almost all) of the costs.

A customer who has no interest in sports is getting screwed. ESPN and regional sport channels cost real money.



solutionsetc said:


> That is the whole point. I don't have a choice if I want ESPN; I have to subscribe to a tier with a 150 other crap channels that I don't even want in my guide (which is one of the reasons I chose TiVo).
> 
> AFAIAC no choice = stranglehold. How would you feel if the only place you could buy groceries only sold pineapple in a big fruit basket that was loaded with pomegranates, kiwi, and dates and of all of that you only like pineapple.
> 
> Of course I can go to another grocery store. But if I tell ComCast to go pound sand I can watch nothing or just get internet and pay an extra $20/month for it because that is what they charge if you aren't also a cable subscriber. To me that sounds an awful lot like if you were buying electricity and gas from PG&E and decided to invest in solar and discontinue the electrical, that you would be charged half again as much for the gas you would continue to purchase.
> 
> The PUC wouldn't let them get away with that and I think the PUC needs to take another long look at cable operators in markets where they are the ONLY game in town. Actually, the whole Cable Cos are not utilities thing has always escaped me as they have the exact same market advantages as a utility at least in my market they do.


----------



## BlackBetty

dig_duggler said:


> Ugh. Bigger hard drive, new UI and 1080p support (which no one broadcasts in)? Not many game changers there....


Lets wait till March 2nd before we decide.


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## dig_duggler

BlackBetty said:


> Lets wait till March 2nd before we decide.


Totally. This is just a speculation thread  But if that's the extent of the new, ugh.


----------



## That Don Guy

solutionsetc said:


> That is the whole point. I don't have a choice if I want ESPN; I have to subscribe to a tier with a 150 other crap channels that I don't even want in my guide (which is one of the reasons I chose TiVo).
> 
> AFAIAC no choice = stranglehold. How would you feel if the only place you could buy groceries only sold pineapple in a big fruit basket that was loaded with pomegranates, kiwi, and dates and of all of that you only like pineapple.


How would you like it if you liked pomegranates, kiwis, dates, and pineapples, but each one was "home delivery only" from separate companies and each had a separate delivery charge?

If you want a cable company to provide "pay by the channel" service, I can pretty much guarantee there will be an "overhead charge" that, coincidentally, happens to equal what you are paying for the "150 channels" now - and then you have to pay for the channels you want on top of that.

-- Don


----------



## dswallow

I love how one model is 19 5/8" wide and 12 5/8" deep and the other model is 19.6" wide and 12.6" deep.


----------



## daveak

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...p-box-that-combines-web-fare-tv-listings.html

Rumors of extended search capabilities.



> The product may let subscribers locate programs at sites including Google Inc.s YouTube and Amazon.com Inc., and on streaming services such as Netflix Inc., said Wible, who is based in Philadelphia. The results would be displayed with broadcast, cable TV and pay-per-view listings, he said.
> 
> You will see us talk about a stunning new way to make the process of finding and selecting video a truly wonderful experience for the consumer, Chief Executive Officer Tom Rogers said yesterday in an interview. He declined to elaborate.
> 
> TiVo plans to announce significant news at an event on March 2 in New York, Mike Boccio, a spokesman, said in an e-mail this week. Comcast Corp. and DirecTV are beginning to offer high-definition DVR service from the company, which also sells recorders in stores. TiVo already sells devices that can access Web sites.


----------



## That Don Guy

fatlard said:


> Does on-demand indicate some type of Tru2Way?


Doubtful - if you go to the TiVo main website, one of the things they advertise is "Amazon On Demand".

Does anybody even know if Tru2Way on a TiVo would work with most of the existing cable systems?

(Meanwhile, Comcast appears to be getting its own OnDemand system closer to TiVo; there's still just the one rewind and one FF speed, and no frame advance, but reportedly they are adding five-minute interval skipping, which is good when you are interrupted 90 minutes into watching something, can't get back to it within 24 hours (so the "resume" feature is no longer available), and don't want to wait 9-10 minutes for the FF to reach the spot.)

-- Don


----------



## jmpage2

Expectations are so high at this point that it's inevitable there are going to be people let down.

It's just a question of how many are let down and how far they fall.

TiVo doesn't help when they put out a press invite in which they are basically thumping their chest and telling us all how bad ass they think they are.

The reality is that they've been coasting on patents and work done a decade ago for a long time now. I say this as someone who genuinely loves his TiVos but has been getting increasingly frustrated with TiVos failure to embrace new technologies such as place-shifting (streaming!), more internet content delivery, better integration with media on home servers, integration with 3rd party devices for related content display (iPad, android, etc!) and so on.

The future of TV distribution is not going to be via a cable card. It's going to be subscription to specific channels or media companies that package internet delivered programs together for a fee. Pay a higher fee and get your favorite shows without advertising.

Unfortunately there is no indicator whatsoever that TiVo "gets" this or is prepared for the shift from the content package from a single provider model to a model in which the content is all over the place.

Let's hope I'm wrong and that the best they can do isn't to show us that we can get Hulu on the Tivo now.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

jmpage2 said:


> The reality is that they've been coasting on patents and work done a decade ago for a long time now. I say this as someone who genuinely loves his TiVos but has been getting increasingly frustrated with TiVos failure to embrace new technologies such as place-shifting (streaming!), more internet content delivery, better integration with media on home servers, integration with 3rd party devices for related content display (iPad, android, etc!) and so on.


 not sure what reality you have been living in but here on earth TiVo has Netflix and Amazon delivered in HD right to the box. Also other internet content and You tube as its own app. Alos they are the only DVR that can move content to a PC or pull it back from a PC with an open SDK involved that let 3rd parties write their own app. Heck you could pull bitorrents to the TiVo via a PC. I was watching shows from the TiVo on my smartphone 3 years ago. The only knock on TiVo is no DLNA support to include more devices and the copy protection that cable labs made them honor. These issues are about their business/legal environment and not there innovation. In short TiVo is ahead in IPTV delivery and made it so simple my 11 year old can pick up the remote and watch a Movie from my PC or Netflix on the TiVo in the playroom without the slightest issue and while staying in the now playing menu.



> Unfortunately there is no indicator whatsoever that TiVo "gets" this or is prepared for the shift from the content package from a single provider model to a model in which the content is all over the place.


 seriously? Have you not seen TiVo search - I can go in there right now today and lookup "Lost" - I can record from cable, I can buy or rent from Amazon as a download or I can stream it right away from Netflix. Also I can check out some You Tube stuff about Lost. Sounds like ease of finding content from all over the place to me. And that is the Beta - they sound ready to announce an interface even better than TiVCo Search. :up:

PS - I would love Hulu on TiVo - tons of good media that is all free - nice.


----------



## morac

That Don Guy said:


> (Meanwhile, Comcast appears to be getting its own OnDemand system closer to TiVo; there's still just the one rewind and one FF speed, and no frame advance, but reportedly they are adding five-minute interval skipping, which is good when you are interrupted 90 minutes into watching something, can't get back to it within 24 hours (so the "resume" feature is no longer available), and don't want to wait 9-10 minutes for the FF to reach the spot.)


Comcast added that in my area already. Supposedly it also works on their DVR recordings, but I don't have one of those. Actually all of Comcast's "new" DVR features (Wish Lists, auto-correction, recording history, folders and skip ahead/back) are blatant copies of TiVo features. I'm assuming this was allowed because of Comcast's partnership with TiVo.

The one things that Comcast does better than TiVo is online DVR management.


----------



## morac

jmpage2 said:


> Let's hope I'm wrong and that the best they can do isn't to show us that we can get Hulu on the Tivo now.


That's never going to happen in Hulu's current form. TPTB don't want people watching Hulu on their TV. If they did, they wouldn't have blocked Hulu on the PS3.

That may change when Comcast takes over NBC, since Comcast and TiVo are "buddies", but even then Comcast isn't going to give TiVo something without getting something in return (see my post above).


----------



## jmpage2

ZeoTiVo said:


> not sure what reality you have been living in but here on earth TiVo has Netflix and Amazon delivered in HD right to the box. Also other internet content and You tube as its own app. Alos they are the only DVR that can move content to a PC or pull it back from a PC with an open SDK involved that let 3rd parties write their own app. Heck you could pull bitorrents to the TiVo via a PC. I was watching shows from the TiVo on my smartphone 3 years ago. The only knock on TiVo is no DLNA support to include more devices and the copy protection that cable labs made them honor. These issues are about their business/legal environment and not there innovation. In short TiVo is ahead in IPTV delivery and made it so simple my 11 year old can pick up the remote and watch a Movie from my PC or Netflix on the TiVo in the playroom without the slightest issue and while staying in the now playing menu.
> 
> seriously? Have you not seen TiVo search - I can go in there right now today and lookup "Lost" - I can record from cable, I can buy or rent from Amazon as a download or I can stream it right away from Netflix. Also I can check out some You Tube stuff about Lost. Sounds like ease of finding content from all over the place to me. And that is the Beta - they sound ready to announce an interface even better than TiVCo Search. :up:
> 
> PS - I would love Hulu on TiVo - tons of good media that is all free - nice.


You can talk about the wonderful features that the TiVo has all you want. Personally I don't have the five minutes it takes to go into TiVo Search and try to type a few characters in and have something meaningful happen.

The hardware and UI are so slow and unresponsive at this point that we find it easier to get something on Netflix through the mail than deal with TiVo slowness.

Faster hardware will help. A better UI will help. But what will really help is TiVo making some real major strides in this area to dramatically shift the DVR landscape.

Playing the "me too" game with Boxee features like Hulu, etc, aren't going to cut it. We need some dramatic announcement such as a partnership with Comcast, TWC, etc, in which we can get a Tru-2-Way type delivery of service for on demand, not just from one provider but from MULTIPLE providers or better yet, from the networks themselves.

I would love to pay $29.99 for a season subscription to True Blood for example without having to pay $120 a year for the rest of the crap that HBO is shoveling.

In 20 years people are going to look back at tiered service subscriptions and laugh about it, because in all likelihood people will be paying the same money they are paying today, but for just the shows/stations/content they want, delivered with minimal ads. They won't have 90 channels of garbage that they are subsidizing just so that they can watch one or two 2nd tier channels that they can't get a la carte.

The tweeners and Gen XYs are already doing this, as they will simply torrent their shows into a media server and then watch them commercial free on a media extender. Obviously this is thievery and should be condemned, but the largest reason that it's being done is for CONVENIENCE over the 30 year old monopoly way of doing things.

The only ones that haven't caught on to this are content providers, distributors and the cable cos.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

jmpage2 said:


> You can talk about the wonderful features that the TiVo has all you want..


right, and that begs the question - how can you say TiVo does not have those features. They don't work the way you want - then get a PC.

For myself I can pull up lost Season 5 any show via TiVo search and be watching it in the space of 5 minutes at a leisurley pace. Heck, there are nights we take longer just to decide what we want to watch from out of all the options. 5 minutes is more than reasonable - if your TiVo takes longer than something is wrong with your setup or the TiVo.

Also if the networks would be willing to let their content download or stream to TiVo then TiVo would do it. You need to bark up the content provider's tree if you want their content.

Oh and can you please point out the company that you think is doing all you wnat now? Someone must be doing it if TiVo is behind and just not getting it, right?


----------



## jmpage2

ZeoTiVo said:


> right, and that begs the question - how can you say TiVo does not have those features. They don't work the way you want - then get a PC.
> 
> For myself I can pull up lost Season 5 any show via TiVo search and be watching it in the space of 5 minutes at a leisurley pace. Heck, there are nights we take longer just to decide what we want to watch from out of all the options. 5 minutes is more than reasonable - if your TiVo takes longer than something is wrong with your setup or the TiVo.


Ah yes, it couldn't be some other problem. It couldn't be throttle and buffer issues in the TiVo (with wired ethernet and a 30mb DOCSIS 3 modem) that result in Netflix HD content pausing once every few minutes for 30 seconds because TiVo has too small of a buffer to handle enough of the program to watch it from beginning to end. Note that this same Netflix HD content works perfectly on a PC or Mac (even over wireless). Must be my setup, right?  I have multiple TiVos and they all have slowness and buffering issues with Netflix ,slow show to show transfer over wired ethernet, etc... but hey, ya my boxes are all bad, that must be it! Operator error, that must be it! 

You apparently are living in some sort of alternate reality in which the series-3 is perfect, in which case I have to question your presence in a series-4 thread since you are so pleased as punch in series-3 land.

Stop being an apologist and realize that the issues with the Series-3 are issues that are affecting real consumers.

I highly doubt that you are streaming HD netflix content, etc, and not seeing the issues that have been reported by lots of people.... but, as I said, maybe you live in some alternate universe or something.

Maybe we should just look at FACTS and you can see that TiVo subscription base is continuing to shrink notably every year. This is because people are not seeing the value proposition of a TiVo over the crap-o box from their local Cable Co. Even if *you* are happy, obviously many consumers are not. You should be interested in what would make those consumers happy, as it will mean TiVo survives and you can continue your love fest with TiVo.


----------



## Wil

jmpage2 said:


> Netflix HD content pausing once every few minutes for 30 seconds because TiVo has too small of a buffer to handle enough of the program to watch it from beginning to end.


With a slow internet connection I suppose that would happen. None of us in our local group have seen that problem, but most of us have decent cable internet service (though we all complain about it).


----------



## jmpage2

Wil said:


> With a slow internet connection I suppose that would happen. None of us in our local group have seen that problem, but most of us have decent cable internet service (though we all complain about it).


I have 30MB/s DOCSIS 3.0. I have this problem on all of my TiVo series-3 boxes.


----------



## morac

jmpage2 said:


> Note that this same Netflix HD content works perfectly on a PC or Mac (even over wireless). Must be my setup, right?


I'll point out that Netflix does not stream HD to PC's or Mac, only SD.


----------



## lvthunder

jmpage2 said:


> I would love to pay $29.99 for a season subscription to True Blood for example without having to pay $120 a year for the rest of the crap that HBO is shoveling.


So do what I do and get HBO when True Blood starts and turn it off when it ends a couple months later.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

jmpage2 said:


> Stop being an apologist and realize that the issues with the Series-3 are issues that are affecting real consumers.


not being an apologist - you are just not making any cogent arguments. 
First you say TiVo does not get it - pointed out that umm - Tivo has tons of 3rd party content all availble one place from their BETA TiVo search already.

then you say - yeah but 20 years from now we will all laugh at having to subscribe to the tier for HBO to watch one series from it. Umm ok - TiVo does not have features yet from 20 years in the future and Netflix can not provide content that HBO has not released to DVD yet. Somehow that is a TiVo failing though?

then after you seem to realize your earlier arguments are no good you come out with - yeah but none of it works.
maybe it does not work at your house and I have idea why nor do I care to troubleshoot it - but at my house and many other houses Netflix works on TiVo - 
Just 2 days ago I watched some Lost streaming from Netflix in HD and had no problems. Watched some Farscape before that, again with no problem.
I have downlaoded Amazon with little wait and I have a PC server full of Movies I can pull onto any TiVo in the house in way faster than real time on any TiVo/TV.

so sorry it does not work at your house with your magnificent setup but that is hardly a logical point in your argument that TiVo inc is behind in 3rd party content and does not get it


----------



## Wil

jmpage2 said:


> I have 30MB/s DOCSIS 3.0. I have this problem on all of my TiVo series-3 boxes.


Then you do indeed have a problem. This is not normal. I have nowhere near that, plus I have jitter and momentary signal dropouts; it never shows up on the Tivos.


----------



## daveak

TiVo + NetFlix = Happiness.

Though I have heard of some issues, my experience has been very good. Though I think this comment really belongs in another thread. 

What I've never understood is how people can have (near) identical TiVo setups and have such a different Netflix experience.


----------



## lvthunder

daveak said:


> TiVo + NetFlix = Happiness.
> 
> Though I have heard of some issues, my experience has been very good. Though I think this comment really belongs in another thread.
> 
> What I've never understood is how people can have (near) identical TiVo setups and have such a different Netflix experience.


Not every internet connection is created equal. Speed isn't the only issue.


----------



## jmpage2

ZeoTiVo said:


> not being an apologist - you are just not making any cogent arguments.
> First you say TiVo does not get it - pointed out that umm - Tivo has tons of 3rd party content all availble one place from their BETA TiVo search already.
> 
> then you say - yeah but 20 years from now we will all laugh at having to subscribe to the tier for HBO to watch one series from it. Umm ok - TiVo does not have features yet from 20 years in the future and Netflix can not provide content that HBO has not released to DVD yet. Somehow that is a TiVo failing though?
> 
> then after you seem to realize your earlier arguments are no good you come out with - yeah but none of it works.
> maybe it does not work at your house and I have idea why nor do I care to troubleshoot it - but at my house and many other houses Netflix works on TiVo -
> Just 2 days ago I watched some Lost streaming from Netflix in HD and had no problems. Watched some Farscape before that, again with no problem.
> I have downlaoded Amazon with little wait and I have a PC server full of Movies I can pull onto any TiVo in the house in way faster than real time on any TiVo/TV.
> 
> so sorry it does not work at your house with your magnificent setup but that is hardly a logical point in your argument that TiVo inc is behind in 3rd party content and does not get it


My original argument that TiVo needs to do something truly innovative still holds.

The proof is in them continuing to shed subscribers.

What good is it going to do for you to give TiVo a pass on weakness in so many areas if they continue losing subscribers and the only way to get TiVo service is on an ad-infested hobbled box provided by your local cableco?


----------



## MichaelK

lvthunder said:


> Not every internet connection is created equal. Speed isn't the only issue.


I too have nothing but perfect experience with netflix HD streaming.

I wonder if it's not throttling from the ISP. Since comcast isn't allowed to slaw torrents anymore, I think i read their new plan is if an area is having issues they throttle the biggist users/apps in the area. Certainly someone HD streaming would look like a larger constant hit on their bandwidth.

I wonder if maybe if in jmpage's case they didn't upgrade the rest of the system enough when they started hading out docsis 3 modems on his system and so they are forced to throttle at times and netflix HD streaming gets 'attacked'?


----------



## SCSIRAID

That Don Guy said:


> Doubtful - if you go to the TiVo main website, one of the things they advertise is "Amazon On Demand".
> 
> Does anybody even know if Tru2Way on a TiVo would work with most of the existing cable systems?
> 
> (Meanwhile, Comcast appears to be getting its own OnDemand system closer to TiVo; there's still just the one rewind and one FF speed, and no frame advance, but reportedly they are adding five-minute interval skipping, which is good when you are interrupted 90 minutes into watching something, can't get back to it within 24 hours (so the "resume" feature is no longer available), and don't want to wait 9-10 minutes for the FF to reach the spot.)
> 
> -- Don


tru2way is not available in very many areas (afaik)... I spoke with my TWC contact recently and asked where our area stood with tru2way. The response was that they intended to support it eventually and were beginning to install some of the infrastructure but no idea as to when it would be available.


----------



## Luckyp79

With my 10mb connection I have no problems streaming Netflix on my TiVo. Even when I had a 5mb connection I had no problems with HD streaming through Netflix.


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## ZeoTiVo

jmpage2 said:


> My original argument that TiVo needs to do something truly innovative still holds.


and if you had actually just said that instead of listing things that TiVo had already innovated on as if they did not exist then I would have passed your post by, likely without comment.
TiVo will always need to innovate, they are not exactly selling in a market that has buyers lining up for limited supplies.


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## ZeoTiVo

SCSIRAID said:


> tru2way is not available in very many areas (afaik)... I spoke with my TWC contact recently and asked where our area stood with tru2way. The response was that they intended to support it eventually and were beginning to install some of the infrastructure but no idea as to when it would be available.


tru2way stalled out when more companies got involved. There is currently still disagreemnt of the full standard. Comcast and TiVo spent time working on it but TiVo now seems to have sidelined tru2way in favor of some things they do not have to wait on the cable companies to agree on.


----------



## CuriousMark

jmpage2 said:


> The proof is in them continuing to shed subscribers.


Are you aware that somewhere around 90% of the subscribers being lost are those with DirecTV subscriptions and DirecTV is pushing them to switch to the DirecTV DVR because there is currently not a DirecTV DVR with TiVo service that can receive the HD content that DirecTV moved to MP4 to free up bandwidth.

Yes, TiVo is behind with that unit. The new DirecTV DVR with TiVo service should have been out late last year, but is not here yet. We don't know if that delay is TiVo's fault, DirecTV's fault, or a combination of both.

It is rumored that the new DirecTV DVR with TiVo was help up to allow TiVo to get their new Premiere units on the market first, but I am not sure I believe that.

I am hoping TiVo will have a DirecTV device very soon now. Having it of course will not instantly win back all the subscribers they have already lost, but it should stop the bleeding. The new features and anything cool that comes out March 2, might start subscriber growth again, we will have to wait and see.


----------



## jmpage2

MichaelK said:


> I too have nothing but perfect experience with netflix HD streaming.
> 
> I wonder if it's not throttling from the ISP. Since comcast isn't allowed to slaw torrents anymore, I think i read their new plan is if an area is having issues they throttle the biggist users/apps in the area. Certainly someone HD streaming would look like a larger constant hit on their bandwidth.
> 
> I wonder if maybe if in jmpage's case they didn't upgrade the rest of the system enough when they started hading out docsis 3 modems on his system and so they are forced to throttle at times and netflix HD streaming gets 'attacked'?


This is absolutely a possibility, however as previously mentioned I don't run into the same buffering issues with other non TiVo devices accessing the same content.

It could be a combination of ISP throttling as well as TiVo buffer size/handling at play here.

Either way, it doesn't work, and as I don't have the issue with other devices I believe TiVo has at least some role in it.


----------



## jmpage2

CuriousMark said:


> Are you aware that somewhere around 90% of the subscribers being lost are those with DirecTV subscriptions and DirecTV is pushing them to switch to the DirecTV DVR because there is currently not a DirecTV DVR with TiVo service that can receive the HD content that DirecTV moved to MP4 to free up bandwidth.
> 
> Yes, TiVo is behind with that unit. The new DirecTV DVR with TiVo service should have been out late last year, but is not here yet. We don't know if that delay is TiVo's fault, DirecTV's fault, or a combination of both.
> 
> It is rumored that the new DirecTV DVR with TiVo was help up to allow TiVo to get their new Premiere units on the market first, but I am not sure I believe that.
> 
> I am hoping TiVo will have a DirecTV device very soon now. Having it of course will not instantly win back all the subscribers they have already lost, but it should stop the bleeding. The new features and anything cool that comes out March 2, might start subscriber growth again, we will have to wait and see.


That might be true but I've never seen numbers on loss of TiVo subscribers that breaks it out this way, so that you know whether subscribers abandoning TiVo are DirecTV customers or not.

Either way, TiVo has lost a lot of subscribers, and as I said earlier, they need to do something VERY bold and innovative to turn that around.


----------



## Brainiac 5

jmpage2 said:


> You can talk about the wonderful features that the TiVo has all you want. Personally I don't have the five minutes it takes to go into TiVo Search and try to type a few characters in and have something meaningful happen.
> 
> The hardware and UI are so slow and unresponsive at this point that we find it easier to get something on Netflix through the mail than deal with TiVo slowness.


I agree about TiVo Search - it's great in theory, but for me it's unusably slow. The thing is, it doesn't have anything to do with the hardware or software on the unit being slow; it's because it's an HME application. Every button press has to go to a server somewhere and instructions on how the UI should respond have to come back. Apparently some people are lucky enough to have a great path through the network to the server, and the UI works. But for many such as myself, any HME application is simply too slow and unresponsive to use on a regular basis. I really, really wish that TiVo would do away with HME completely and go to something where the UI for these applications is handled on the box itself.


----------



## Brainiac 5

jmpage2 said:


> This is absolutely a possibility, however as previously mentioned I don't run into the same buffering issues with other non TiVo devices accessing the same content.
> 
> It could be a combination of ISP throttling as well as TiVo buffer size/handling at play here.
> 
> Either way, it doesn't work, and as I don't have the issue with other devices I believe TiVo has at least some role in it.


Yes, the bottom line is that whatever causes the problems for TiVos, other devices can handle it just fine. For whatever reason, the TiVo software is not as robust as the software on other devices.


----------



## nrc

Brainiac 5 said:


> I really, really wish that TiVo would do away with HME completely and go to something where the UI for these applications is handled on the box itself.


Indications are that TiVo will use Flash light in their new box. That will likely mean either a new framework or a major rework of HME to allow a more autonomous UI.


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## jmpage2

nrc said:


> Indications are that TiVo will use Flash light in their new box. That will likely mean either a new framework or a major rework of HME to allow a more autonomous UI.


Steve Jobs better not find out they are using Flash. It'll be all like, "Hulk Steve SMASH!!!!".


----------



## Brainiac 5

nrc said:


> Indications are that TiVo will use Flash light in their new box. That will likely mean either a new framework or a major rework of HME to allow a more autonomous UI.


That would get a :up: from me.



jmpage2 said:


> Steve Jobs better not find out they are using Flash. It'll be all like, "Hulk Steve SMASH!!!!".


You know that's right!


----------



## jmpage2

Brainiac 5 said:


> That would get a :up: from me.
> 
> You know that's right!


He'll probably just buy TiVo and make them re-write it for Apple TV. Apple has $25B for "acquisitions" right now.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Brainiac 5 said:


> I agree about TiVo Search - it's great in theory, but for me it's unusably slow. The thing is, it doesn't have anything to do with the hardware or software on the unit being slow; it's because it's an HME application.
> 
> . I really, really wish that TiVo would do away with HME completely and go to something where the UI for these applications is handled on the box itself.


TiVo search as it is currently is a BETA. It was noted as such and they have a whole forum here denoting that fact. TiVo search as an HME app was never meant to be the end product.
The UI is currently handled on the box though. What goes back and forth is the data based on the search. For good or bad the broadband connection on the box will just be getting as important as hardware powerful enough to hold up its end of the performace bargain.


----------



## Brainiac 5

ZeoTiVo said:


> The UI is currently handled on the box though. What goes back and forth is the data based on the search.


Are you sure about that? In my understanding, the way HME works is that button presses go to the server and the server sends back what to draw in response.



> For good or bad the broadband connection on the box will just be getting as important as hardware powerful enough to hold up its end of the performace bargain.


But it will never be a good idea to have every individual keypress go to a server for it to decide what to do.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Brainiac 5 said:


> Are you sure about that? In my understanding, the way HME works is that button presses go to the server and the server sends back what to draw in response.
> 
> But it will never be a good idea to have every individual keypress go to a server for it to decide what to do.


yes in the public version of HME- TiVo search though does not have to use the public APIs for HME so the developers can put more UI functionality on the server running in the TiVo - that is just a kludge though as a full blown app server in the TiVo box is not a good idea for stability either.

And that is where Flash comes in to try and take care of both those issues.


----------



## innocentfreak

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo search as it is currently is a BETA. It was noted as such and they have a whole forum here denoting that fact. TiVo search as an HME app was never meant to be the end product.


I almost wonder now if TiVo search was also a test to see how well the series 3 could handle the UI since some of the tipsters to engadgethd did say the new ui started as fixes for the series 3.


----------



## ddreese

I've been a loyal TiVo owner and subscriber since I got my first Philips 312 for Christmas in 2001. I upgraded the drive and added the ethernet card in the first unit, then bought a series2 and then a DT and upgraded the drives in both of those as well. I was a little perturbed at the lockdown that prevented the series2 boxes from being easily user-upgradeable. Still, I continued to be a TiVo evangelist. Until last year, when I finally ditched my local cable company over their poor customer service and went back to DirecTV for the first time in 11 years.
The older DirecTiVo boxes don't work with the newer DirecTV LNB systems. The newer TiVo boxes don't work with DirecTV at all. So I've been stuck using the two TiVo's on my sub in hobbled, one hand tied behind its back mode. I've been patiently waiting for the new DirecTiVo 'coming soon'.
I'm not going to wait much longer.
The TiVo Premiere holds no benefit to me. My little Seagate FreeAgent Theater+ provides me most of the functionality I need, allowing me to not only hook up an external USB drive with movies, but to also stream them from my PC or pretty much anywhere on the internet and display them all at 1080p. Not only that, but there is an active community generating their own firmware for the box to extend capabilities we used to have, like FTP, telnet, SSH, web server, etc.
So unless TiVo gets their act together, I'm going to replace both my remaining units with HR23's and maybe a few more FAT+'s.
TiVo hasn't responded to this long-term subscribers needs. The Premiere dog won't hunt.


----------



## MichaelK

jmpage2 said:


> This is absolutely a possibility, however as previously mentioned I don't run into the same buffering issues with other non TiVo devices accessing the same content.
> 
> It could be a combination of ISP throttling as well as TiVo buffer size/handling at play here.
> 
> Either way, it doesn't work, and as I don't have the issue with other devices I believe TiVo has at least some role in it.


I honestly dont know- but someone above wrote you can't stream HD to a PC- only to a Tivo. So is it possible the pc only has much lower SD bitrates?


----------



## MichaelK

Brainiac 5 said:


> I agree about TiVo Search - it's great in theory, but for me it's unusably slow. The thing is, it doesn't have anything to do with the hardware or software on the unit being slow; it's because it's an HME application. Every button press has to go to a server somewhere and instructions on how the UI should respond have to come back. Apparently some people are lucky enough to have a great path through the network to the server, and the UI works. But for many such as myself, any HME application is simply too slow and unresponsive to use on a regular basis. _*I really, really wish that TiVo would do away with HME completely and go to something where the UI for these applications is handled on the box itself*_.


I wonder if the announcement isnt eactly that the "beta search" is leacing HME and becoming native somehow? That could be the "new HD UI".


----------



## Brainiac 5

MichaelK said:


> I honestly dont know- but someone above wrote you can't stream HD to a PC- only to a Tivo. So is it possible the pc only has much lower SD bitrates?


I believe that's true about the PC. However, other devices (for example, the Roku) do get HD, and I've seen posts where people said their Roku worked fine when TiVo didn't.


----------



## MichaelK

Brainiac 5 said:


> I believe that's true about the PC. However, other devices (for example, the Roku) do get HD, and I've seen posts where people said their Roku worked fine when TiVo didn't.


interesting- I guess the tivo does buffer less for some reason. If I recall the reserved space is huge- so maybe they should take some more of that for the streaming buffer.


----------



## samo

jmpage2 said:


> That might be true but I've never seen numbers on loss of TiVo subscribers that breaks it out this way, so that you know whether subscribers abandoning TiVo are DirecTV customers or not.
> 
> Either way, TiVo has lost a lot of subscribers, and as I said earlier, they need to do something VERY bold and innovative to turn that around.


It is all public information. Accordig to SEC filings for the last reported quarter they lost 45,000 TiVo owned subs and 269,000 DirecTV subs.


----------



## DocNo

AbMagFab said:


> But there's also a big reason why <1% of the population is capable of being leaders and instituting real change...


Slapping a new label like Web 2.0 on an existing concept isn't "real change" but hey, knock yourself out. Me, I'd just be happy if Tivo could let me watch my Netflix without rebooting or would let me move through menus without long delays and pauses in the UI. Silly me for wishing for base functionality - by all means, layer on more features that a minority of users will use that will probably slow the @^&@! box down more and drive off more of the core users that have kept Tivo going all these years. I sincerely hope the upcoming announcement has more substance than fluff like this.


----------



## DocNo

solutionsetc said:


> That is the whole point. I don't have a choice if I want ESPN; I have to subscribe to a tier with a 150 other crap channels that I don't even want in my guide


While I'm glad I'm not that into sports, I think you are going to see this change. Look at the MLB iPhone app - you can stream games and other content. I think many of the exclusive agreements with cable co's are gong to start to change, or you will see new alternatives start to spring up. With technology and web production what it is today, it's not unfeasible to expect an alternative or alternatives to ESPN or parts of ESPN start to emerge. Or ESPN themselves start offering more content online. It's just the beginning - for the US anyway, IPTV is pretty established in many European countries.

Want to speed things up? Get your local government to get involved with Google: http://www.google.com/appserve/fiberrfi/


----------



## DCIFRTHS

DocNo said:


> Slapping a new label like Web 2.0 on an existing concept isn't "real change" but hey, knock yourself out. Me, I'd just be happy if Tivo could let me watch my Netflix without rebooting or would let me move through menus without long delays and pauses in the UI. Silly me for wishing for base functionality - by all means, layer on more features that a minority of users will use that will probably slow the @^&@! box down more and drive off more of the core users that have kept Tivo going all these years. I sincerely hope the upcoming announcement has more substance than fluff like this.


One of the more sensible posts I have read in a while. I would like to see a true HD interface too.


----------



## DocNo

morac said:


> I'll point out that Netflix does not stream HD to PC's or Mac, only SD.


It does, however, to my Xbox 360 and PS3 - and it works fine on those.


----------



## Bierboy

ddreese said:


> I've been a loyal TiVo owner and subscriber since I got my first Philips 312 for Christmas in 2001. I upgraded the drive and added the ethernet card in the first unit, then bought a series2 and then a DT and upgraded the drives in both of those as well. I was a little perturbed at the lockdown that prevented the series2 boxes from being easily user-upgradeable. Still, I continued to be a TiVo evangelist. Until last year, when I finally ditched my local cable company over their poor customer service and went back to DirecTV for the first time in 11 years.
> The older DirecTiVo boxes don't work with the newer DirecTV LNB systems. The newer TiVo boxes don't work with DirecTV at all. So I've been stuck using the two TiVo's on my sub in hobbled, one hand tied behind its back mode. I've been patiently waiting for the new DirecTiVo 'coming soon'.
> I'm not going to wait much longer.
> The TiVo Premiere holds no benefit to me. My little Seagate FreeAgent Theater+ provides me most of the functionality I need, allowing me to not only hook up an external USB drive with movies, but to also stream them from my PC or pretty much anywhere on the internet and display them all at 1080p. Not only that, but there is an active community generating their own firmware for the box to extend capabilities we used to have, like FTP, telnet, SSH, web server, etc.
> So unless TiVo gets their act together, I'm going to replace both my remaining units with HR23's and maybe a few more FAT+'s.
> TiVo hasn't responded to this long-term subscribers needs. The Premiere dog won't hunt.


Interesting post....and fairly uneducated...since the "Premiere" isn't even out yet


----------



## ZeoTiVo

ddreese said:


> TiVo hasn't responded to this long-term subscribers needs. The Premiere dog won't hunt.


umm yeah - you have DirectTV and hate cable. IF something like cable card had been made to happen for DirectTV and DISH then the premiere might have worked with those broadcasters. Really odd of you to talk about TiVo issues when you made the choice to do things as DirecTTV will do them.

As to the rumors that the premiere held up work on the DirectTiVo unit - does anyone think DirectTV would be saying "Oh no prob, just deliver the unit when you have some time?"


----------



## schwinn

An interesting article I ran into through Slashdot this morning: http://www.gadgetopolis.com/posts/7462

(Warning, site is running slow due to the slashdotting...)

Not sure if there's much new info there, but an interesting read with lots of history, at least...


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## ZeoTiVo

DocNo said:


> Me, I'd just be happy if Tivo could let me watch my Netflix without rebooting or would let me move through menus without long delays and pauses in the UI. Silly me for wishing for base functionality


again - not every box, heck not even a significnat minority of the boxes have these problems. If that was the case then the press that cared about such would be reporting on such.

So silly you for just continuing to use a box that does not work and then complaining about it in forums as if that will somehow make the box work. I know it can cost money and might even mean you just have to scrap that TiVo box as a lemon but if I had a ford truck that stalled every cold morning and even if I knew 20 other Ford Truck owners with the same problem I would not be thinking that Ford needs to redesign their trucks or that all Ford trucks even suffered from some design flaw.


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## xcrunner

As much as I love to complain about my TiVo (I came home yesterday to a green screen and loud noise. my recordings that evening didn't happen), netflix is one of the things that appears to work great. It's not *as* fast as I'd like, but I literally can start playing something in 30 secs or so.

The only time I had issues was a year ago when I was in a dorm and so there were probably port issues. Are the people with the issues using a good router that supports nat/upnp and/or opening ports for the tivo?


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## DocNo

ZeoTiVo said:


> again - not every box, heck not even a significnat minority of the boxes have these problems. If that was the case then the press that cared about such would be reporting on such.


1) For the people who have only streamed netflix through Tivo, they probably don't realize how good netflix streaming can be, or how much better it can look on more capable hardware.

2) Even if there was a significant problem with netflix on Tivo, Netflix streaming is niche enough on it's own, never mind the even smaller niche of Tivo users that to pin success/fail of a feature by it's lack of an appearance in "press" is laughable. And if you are including blogs as "press" that's even more laughable given the biases that such blogs inherently have in covering such a niche product.

I've been a Tivo proponent since 2001, and for most people I'm still a Tivo proponent, but Tivo is still a niche product - and as others have pointed out it's becoming more of a niche product. It's not growing, it's shrinking. DirecTV vs. CableCard in the end really doesn't matter - their subscriber base is shrinking 



> So silly you for just continuing to use a box that does not work


It works, it just works poorly. Not poorly enough that I'm willing to totally abandon them just yet, but if they don't have something significantly improved by the time I am ready for an upgrade - I will switch. I will only wait so long. If my S3 performed the same as the day I bought it, I wouldn't even be posting - but the experience on it has _degraded_ over time as they have piled on more crap - the majority of which I neither want nor care about. I wish I had the option to request "Tivo Light" that just sticks to the @^^[email protected]! basics!!!



> and then complaining about it in forums as if that will somehow make the box work.


Maybe someone from Tivo (they used to browse these forums, I dunno if they still care what their customers think) will see the trends in comments like these and do something about it. Maybe they are already to the point where they can't if they wanted to 

In the end, I don't expect anything - that's your projection of motive where none exists. I'm simply expressing my opinion. For someone who does it as often as you do, I figured you would be familiar with the concept 



> I know it can cost money and might even mean you just have to scrap that TiVo box as a lemon


My Tivo box is not a lemon, functionality it was never designed to do was crammed into it in the incessant compulsion companies have to try to outdo their competitors feature list.

Wanna know why Apple is kicking everyones butt in the personal music/video/smartphone and soon to be tablet space? Slavish devotion to the user experience - which includes often leaving out features that "experts" insist they must have if the features will impact the user experience. Tivo, on the other hand, is falling into the trap of every other tech company who seems to feel they have to expand features and if the user experience suffers, oh well. It's a bunch of crap and extremely annoying since for it's core functionality, a DVR with really good scheduling and use of guide data, is getting steamrolled by all this other fluff they keep trying to stuff in a box that was near it's limit with it's base functionality.

Instead of netflix and HMA how about coordinated scheduling and conflict resolution among multiple networked Tivo's?



> but if I had a ford truck that stalled every cold morning and even if I knew 20 other Ford Truck owners with the same problem I would not be thinking that Ford needs to redesign their trucks or that all Ford trucks even suffered from some design flaw.


No, the Ford fanbois would continue to buy them, and if Ford didn't fix the problem people who actually watch things like reliability ratings would buy other products, Ford sales would drop and that would force them to redesign.

The core problem is, for whatever reasons, Tivo never got close to anything like Ford market share. Tivo is closer to Tucker - a plucky design with lots of innovative features that never caught on. They either come up with a significant increase in their value proposition or I am moving on. Not because I want to, but I'm just tired of being frustrated by the device that is supposed to make my leisure time more enjoyable, not more stressful.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

DocNo said:


> 2) Even if there was a significant problem with netflix on Tivo, Netflix streaming is niche enough on it's own, never mind the even smaller niche of Tivo users that to pin success/fail of a feature by it's lack of an appearance in "press" is laughable. And if you are including blogs as "press" that's even more laughable given the biases that such blogs inherently have in covering such a niche product.


 I had no idea the conspiracy was that deep and wide on hushing up TiVo problems. Whoa - am I working on the side of evil by pointing out the reality here. 

again you may have your own user expectations and you may have your own approach to putting up with less than you expect, that however does not translate directly to some company having to adjust to your specific situation.

PS - I pointed out that if Netflix on TiVo had *problems* that showed on all units trying to use Netflix - then that would show up in reviews or mentions in engadget and so forth. This very thread shows the problems to not be on everyone's' TiVo. Your reality heard me say success instead - which I never said.

So state your opinions all you want - just be ready for others to knock them down when they are not accurate.


----------



## ddreese

ZeoTiVo said:


> umm yeah - you have DirectTV and hate cable. IF something like cable card had been made to happen for DirectTV and DISH then the premiere might have worked with those broadcasters. Really odd of you to talk about TiVo issues when you made the choice to do things as DirecTTV will do them.
> 
> As to the rumors that the premiere held up work on the DirectTiVo unit - does anyone think DirectTV would be saying "Oh no prob, just deliver the unit when you have some time?"


No, I don't hate cable, I hated my cable provider who lost half a dozen channels (A&E, History, HI and a few others) for nine months in a dispute over contract terms. The final straw was when they lost Showtime right in the middle of The Tudors.

With cable, my DT worked like a champ. The broadband internet was fast. I just couldn't get the channels I wanted, and they couldn't tell me when I would be getting them back. So they lost a customer due to poor customer service.

Likewise, TiVo will be losing yet another long-term subscriber because they haven't met my needs. UNLESS they get the new DirecTiVo out PDQ.

TiVo should have worked harder to keep their relationship with DirecTV. I can't even use my OLD DirecTiVo's on the new system.

I really enjoy the ease of use of the TiVo UI. I miss it not being on the HR23, which has it's own issues, but at least DTV seems to be slowly addressing issues and adding features. Had my cable operater not been so phenominally screwed up, I would have plunked down for a couple of shiny new TiVo HD XL's (and suitably upgraded the HDD's).

Alas, now I'm 'stuck' with using my DT on DirecTV with one tuner non-functional. As I upgrade my older SD TV's, I'll also be upgrading the STB. TiVo doesn't have an option for me at the moment, hence, 'the Premiere dog won't hunt'.

I fervently hope that changes soon.


----------



## morac

MichaelK said:


> I wonder if it's not throttling from the ISP. Since comcast isn't allowed to slaw torrents anymore, I think i read their new plan is if an area is having issues they throttle the biggist users/apps in the area. Certainly someone HD streaming would look like a larger constant hit on their bandwidth.


Comcast's throttling mechanism has been in place for a while now, but for the vast majority of people it's a not an issue since it only takes affect if there is congestion on your node and you are using 70% or more of your provisioned download and/or upload speeds for more than 15 minutes. If that happens than the download and/or upload packets (managed separately) are given a lower priority than the packets of other users.

The average Comcast customer has a 12 mbps connection and Netflix uses 3.8 mbps for HD streaming which is less than 70% so the throttling mechanism shouldn't affect Netflix unless you are streaming multiple movies at once.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

ddreese said:


> TiVo should have worked harder to keep their relationship with DirecTV. I can't even use my OLD DirecTiVo's on the new system.
> 
> TiVo doesn't have an option for me at the moment, hence, 'the Premiere dog won't hunt'.


if you followed what happened, Rupert Murdoch acquired Direct TV via parent company and decided he would have everything under control of HIS companies - there was no 'work harder' for TiVo. They would have had to lose money as the only thing tha twould appeal to Murdoch. Direct TV shareholders had enough of Murdoch eventually and the new ownership opened up talks with TiVo before the ink on the change of ownership was dry.

and yes again, you need a Direct TV unit so obviously you yourself would rather TiVo do nothing but make the next DirectTiVo. It is just not that simple though.


----------



## LoadStar

schwinn said:


> An interesting article I ran into through Slashdot this morning: http://www.gadgetopolis.com/posts/7462
> 
> (Warning, site is running slow due to the slashdotting...)
> 
> Not sure if there's much new info there, but an interesting read with lots of history, at least...


From that article: "For starters, TiVo has scheduled an announcement  a big announcement to be held at nothing less than the top of the Empire State Building 30 Rockefeller Center." Wow. Major geography failure. Those are two entirely separate buildings.


----------



## jmpage2

ZeoTiVo said:


> again - not every box, heck not even a significnat minority of the boxes have these problems. If that was the case then the press that cared about such would be reporting on such.
> 
> So silly you for just continuing to use a box that does not work and then complaining about it in forums as if that will somehow make the box work. I know it can cost money and might even mean you just have to scrap that TiVo box as a lemon but if I had a ford truck that stalled every cold morning and even if I knew 20 other Ford Truck owners with the same problem I would not be thinking that Ford needs to redesign their trucks or that all Ford trucks even suffered from some design flaw.


Ya, I'm sure Toyota owners who weren't having acceleration problems were saying the same thing on their forums.

Well MY Toyota doesn't have those issues so you must just not know how to drive the car properly.


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## CrispyCritter

jmpage2 said:


> Ya, I'm sure Toyota owners who weren't having acceleration problems were saying the same thing on their forums.
> 
> Well MY Toyota doesn't have those issues so you must just not know how to drive the car properly.


And when did anybody blame you personally for the fact that your network has throughput problems?


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## jmpage2

CrispyCritter said:


> And when did anybody blame you personally for the fact that your network has throughput problems?


Funny, Netflix movies don't stutter when I play them on the PC, or the PS3, or the Mac.

Yes, my network must have throughput issues when the TiVo is the only box that constantly freezes and has to re-buffer during movie playback.

Your logic=fail.


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## daveak

Sometime I think it is a matter of hardware. TiVo is like using a computer that is at least 4-5 years old and may lack the robustness to deal with streaming issues on an internet connection. There could be a software issue as well or simply a lack of buffering space. Certainly the Xbox and PS3 are way ahead of TiVo with much more robust hardware, designed for some rather intense gaming. And the Roku is a newer dedicated streaming box, its core functionality.

Using the old Ford example, they all may start and run great - but try using them at 40 below zero and less than ideal operating conditions and you may find your great older truck operates poorly and is not robust enough to handle those conditions. 

I think Netflix streaming may have exposed the limits of the hardware and/ or software for some users who may not have an ideal internet connection or network, or their service provider may not be offering the best service. Newer and better hardware and more powerful chipsets (as found in some other devices) handle the issues well - and NetFlix will work great.

If it is a software issue, maybe it can be fixed with a new UI in the series 3 type box, but if it is a hardware limitation there may be nothing TiVo can do for users who may not have an ideal network setting. I know you can sometimes adjust for hardware limitations with software patches, but that is not usually an easy or optimum solution.


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## xander777

Can we stop the bickering about Netflix and other TiVo issues and get back to the point of this thread?

Is anyone else excited that they may be getting a new HD interface for their existing Tivo HD or Series 3? If they can give me a fast HD interface, a guide that shows what I'm watching in the corner, apps etc... without me having to buy new hardware, that would be fantastic. I'm guessing the Premiere is probably similiar to the PS3 slim idea, does all the same stuff but at a cheaper cost for them to produce. I doubt it would be drastically different from the existing models since they have that whole user base to continue supporting. Just my $.02


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## CrispyCritter

jmpage2 said:


> Funny, Netflix movies don't stutter when I play them on the PC, or the PS3, or the Mac.
> 
> Yes, my network must have throughput issues when the TiVo is the only box that constantly freezes and has to re-buffer during movie playback.
> 
> Your logic=fail.


Sorry, that makes no sense at all. Lots of people have no problems with Netflix. There must be something different for them than for you. It's not the software and its not the hardware design, since those are the same in both cases. Please tell me what the difference is!

As others have pointed out, it absolutely can be the case that the TiVo is not handling your network problems as well as the other devices. But that doesn't mean that you don't have network problems; it means you do have them!

And you keep on repeating nonsense about how playing things on the PC proves it's the TiVo, despite knowing that those are completely different streams coming from completely different servers at completely different bit rates.


----------



## morac

jmpage2 said:


> Funny, Netflix movies don't stutter when I play them on the PC, or the PS3, or the Mac.
> 
> Yes, my network must have throughput issues when the TiVo is the only box that constantly freezes and has to re-buffer during movie playback.
> 
> Your logic=fail.


I don't know how your network is set up, but you can't blame the TiVo until you've eliminated all possible problems on your end. This could be plugging the TiVo directly into the modem or clocking streaming speeds for YouTube and the free podcast videos. There might be a problem with the TiVo or it could be as simple as a nicked network cable or malfunctioning router port.


----------



## innocentfreak

xander777 said:


> Is anyone else excited that they may be getting a new HD interface for their existing Tivo HD or Series 3? If they can give me a fast HD interface, a guide that shows what I'm watching in the corner, apps etc... without me having to buy new hardware, that would be fantastic. I'm guessing the Premiere is probably similiar to the PS3 slim idea, does all the same stuff but at a cheaper cost for them to produce. I doubt it would be drastically different from the existing models since they have that whole user base to continue supporting. Just my $.02


Personally for me while a new UI would be nice if done correctly there is always a huge chance people will hate it. I know some people are already dreading it will look like TiVo Search just on every screen.

I think it would be smart if feasible to include a "Classic" option also that supports HD if there is a new UI. Also there might be issues if the UI is designed for HD and you try to use it on a SD set similar to some games on the PS3 and 360 where the text can't be read.

Overall new hardware especially with more tuners would excite me more than just a new UI. Then again it depends on what it can do with the UI.


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## ZeoTiVo

LoadStar said:


> From that article: "For starters, TiVo has scheduled an announcement  a big announcement to be held at nothing less than the top of the Empire State Building 30 Rockefeller Center." Wow. Major geography failure. Those are two entirely separate buildings.


well the fact those two buildings are now one is certainly some new news.


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## ZeoTiVo

daveak said:


> Using the old Ford example, they all may start and run great - but try using them at 40 below zero and less than ideal operating conditions and you may find your great older truck operates poorly and is not robust enough to handle those conditions.


exactly, and while Ford may build lessons learned into newer models - or just use better material by default of being designed built later - it is not going back to the older models - unless the problem rises to the level of what Toyota has.

So I look forward to the new model(s) while happily using my current ones reliably at my nice balmy meadow. C'mon March 2nd.


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## ZeoTiVo

innocentfreak said:


> I think it would be smart if feasible to include a "Classic" option also that supports HD if there is a new UI. Also there might be issues if the UI is designed for HD and you try to use it on a SD set similar to some games on the PS3 and 360 where the text can't be read.


TiVo gave that very reason of hard to support on all TV sets for why they did not just update what they had to HD format.

So having the classic menu in SD and a new HD UI as options would be great. Just means more support work for TiVo but it would be extra work that has a pretty good payoff in overall customer satisfaction.


----------



## stmckin

unexciting to mediocre:
- HD refresh of the same interface
- qwerty remote
- new hardware platform with fundamentally the same function

exciting:
- new speedy hd interface with Dinovo mini kinda remote that will run on current hardware... even if I have to pay a one time upcharge 
- new guide that incorporates "mutli source" search (amazon/netflix/youtube/hulu/ota/cable in one jump)
- new top menu paradigm that reflects tech changes since 2001 (lol)

disasterous:
- new premier with new performance and function that leaves current users out in the cold


as an aside.... everyone is talking Netflix all the time, when Amazon playback totally rocks (exactly like tivo recording) in comparison... I don't get that... rent a movie Netflix, then rent the same movie amazon and you'll se what I mean....


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## DancnDude

stmckin said:


> as an aside.... everyone is talking Netflix all the time, when Amazon playback totally rocks (exactly like tivo recording) in comparison... I don't get that... rent a movie Netflix, then rent the same movie amazon and you'll se what I mean....


Netflix is streaming and Amazon just downloads it. Pretty big difference. Amazon is basically just downloading the recording and then treating the recording like any other recorded TV show (except it may expire after a certain period and auto-delete itself).


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## stmckin

DancnDude said:


> Netflix is streaming and Amazon just downloads it. Pretty big difference. Amazon is basically just downloading the recording and then treating the recording like any other recorded TV show (except it may expire after a certain period and auto-delete itself).


you can begin playback of Amazon content after a few minutes, so the streaming vs DL thing is simply splitting buffering hairs .... I can wait a couple of minutes (make a sandwich... go to the john... whatever) to get much enhanced playback and quality... Netflix stinks


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## Brainiac 5

ZeoTiVo said:


> So silly you for just continuing to use a box that does not work and then complaining about it in forums as if that will somehow make the box work. I know it can cost money and might even mean you just have to scrap that TiVo box as a lemon


The problem is, I don't think the people having problems have "lemons." From what people have posted, I doubt very much it is something that's different about their particular box; I think what's different is their network connection. While this could be something in their setup, it could also be something outside their own network, on the path from their house to the server; from what I've read on these forums, I suspect this is often the case. In any event, having some network errors is completely expected and normal, that's why the protocols are designed to work in the presence of errors. Other devices are able to handle these people's network connections just fine - it really, really seems that it is something in the TiVo that's not as robust as it should be.



> but if I had a ford truck that stalled every cold morning and even if I knew 20 other Ford Truck owners with the same problem I would not be thinking that Ford needs to redesign their trucks or that all Ford trucks even suffered from some design flaw.


Your Ford analogy isn't quite right. The situation is more like this: For most people, Ford trucks work great. However, they won't start for anyone who has red hair and blue eyes. Since such people are relatively rare, the problem doesn't affect that many customers. In this case, yes, all Ford trucks suffer from the same design flaw - it's just that most drivers don't have the characteristics that trigger the problem. For those customers that do have those characteristics, it's a dependably repeatable problem - so if I was in charge of Ford, yes, they'd redesign the trucks.

In fact, there was a real-world situation that was remarkably similar to this: airbags. As you may recall, there were cases where airbags hurt or killed people instead of protecting them. Many people made the argument that they protect most of the time, and it's rare that they cause harm instead, so on the whole it's better to have them. The problem with that argument was that it assumed that each time anyone crashes, they had a (say) 99% chance of being helped by the airbag vs. a 1% chance of being hurt by it. But that wasn't true - it actually depended on the size of the person. If you're short enough that you sit within 12" of the steering wheel, in a crash you had a much greater chance of being hurt than helped; if you are taller than that, you had a greater chance of being helped than hurt. The fact that the airbags helped most of the time was because most people are tall enough that they sit more than 12" from the steering wheel. If you are short, this is not is not exactly ideal. What did the car manufacturers do? They redesigned the cars so that the airbags would not deploy if the person was less than 12" away from the steering wheel, solving the problem.


----------



## Brainiac 5

daveak said:


> Sometime I think it is a matter of hardware. TiVo is like using a computer that is at least 4-5 years old and may lack the robustness to deal with streaming issues on an internet connection.


While that's possible, as a computer scientist I don't know what part of the hardware would be lacking to make this happen. If the hardware was too slow to keep with the stream, it would seem like that would happen to everyone, and in fact more to people who had good internet connections because it would use a higher bitrate stream. As for handling connection errors, that would happen in the software and is not taxing on the hardware in any way.


----------



## stmckin

the ultimate, but unlikely, announcement would be subscription service for download that emulates cable TV... in other words, a Uverse like offering... on the Tivo platform that would be ultra hot


----------



## Brainiac 5

CrispyCritter said:


> Sorry, that makes no sense at all. Lots of people have no problems with Netflix. There must be something different for them than for you. It's not the software and its not the hardware design, since those are the same in both cases. Please tell me what the difference is!


I'm almost certain it's the network, but that doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with the TiVo. A certain number of network problems are expected; if TiVo cannot handle a network connection that is not perfect but is within "normal tolerances," then the problem is in the TiVo. It will never be the case that everyone has a connection better than the worst that's considered "normal."



> As others have pointed out, it absolutely can be the case that the TiVo is not handling your network problems as well as the other devices. But that doesn't mean that you don't have network problems; it means you do have them!


It does, but again, there will always be _some_ network problems; it would be astounding if even the people who've had no problems with Netflix never had a single dropped packet. The issue seems to be that the software has to tolerate errors better, like other devices do.


----------



## Brainiac 5

stmckin said:


> the ultimate, but unlikely, announcement would be subscription service for download that emulates cable TV... in other words, a Uverse like offering... on the Tivo platform that would be ultra hot


Yes, please, I'd take that! (If the price made sense.)


----------



## daveak

Brainiac 5 said:


> While that's possible, as a computer scientist I don't know what part of the hardware would be lacking to make this happen. If the hardware was too slow to keep with the stream, it would seem like that would happen to everyone, and in fact more to people who had good internet connections because it would use a higher bitrate stream. As for handling connection errors, that would happen in the software and is not taxing on the hardware in any way.


I am certainly not a computer scientist...  but maybe people have different quality streams and some may be dealing with issues beyond the ability of the current device setup to deal with - as compared to other devices on the same network and connection that appear to operate flawlessly.

The majority do not have an issue, which leads credence to the thought of it not being a TiVo caused problem. However, even in that case, a software or hardware deficiency may not be showing show up with those who have better network connections (if that indeed is what is causing the issue with NetFlix for some users). And I think we all know that network speed is certainly not the only issue important to quality streaming.


----------



## daveak

Brainiac 5 said:


> The issue seems to be that the software has to tolerate errors better, like other devices do.


And could there be limits on the software because of the TiVo hardware (I just do not know, so I have to ask)?

I am thinking that in March Series 3 platform users will see quite an update to the software on their boxes. As it seems to work better for TiVo to keep users subscribing with their current boxes, assuming not to many of them have lifetime. If they can speed up the software and use less system resources for performing core functions, then ideally the box can perform better - and maybe that will include streaming on NetFlix.

I think a few users certainly hope their NetFlix experience will improve.


----------



## rainwater

DancnDude said:


> Netflix is streaming and Amazon just downloads it.


Amazon does support streaming, but TiVo does not support it. The Roku box does streaming from Amazon.


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## Brainiac 5

daveak said:


> The majority do not have an issue, which leads credence to the thought of it not being a TiVo caused problem. However, even in that case, a software or hardware deficiency may not be showing show up with those who have better network connections (if that indeed is what is causing the issue with NetFlix for some users).


Yes, if the network is the problem, I think that what you suggest is exactly what's happening. I think it's more likely a software issue than hardware, but of course none of us can say for certain.



> And I think we all know that network speed is certainly not the only issue important to quality streaming.


True.


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## Brainiac 5

daveak said:


> And could there be limits on the software because of the TiVo hardware (I just do not know, so I have to ask)?


There could, but I don't think that's a likely situation (unless there are actually major bugs in the hardware). Handling network errors doesn't seem like something that would strain the capabilities of the machine (for example, a packet doesn't come through, you ask for it to be resent - that doesn't take a lot of horsepower).



> I am thinking that in March Series 3 platform users will see quite an update to the software on their boxes. As it seems to work better for TiVo to keep users subscribing with their current boxes, assuming not to many of them have lifetime. If they can speed up the software and use less system resources for performing core functions, then ideally the box can perform better - and maybe that will include streaming on NetFlix.


Let's hope, that would be great!


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Brainiac 5 said:


> it really, really seems that it is something in the TiVo that's not as robust as it should be.


it certainly could be some specific error handling in the TiVo that is not there but would overcome the issue if it was there. I am not saying TiVo has made a bullet proof box. They have in fact considered cost as prioroity in the design of the TiVo HD. My point was simply that TiVo may not spend any resources on correcting that for specific cases and certainly wont if they are not made aware and be able to replicate it though that of ocurse would take some extensive testing in the person's home to find root cause.

A new hardware model or next years truck if you will, likely would oversomce some of these outliers as witnessed by the more extensive hardware of the PS3 or Xbox not displaying the same issue.

so I say again - C'mon new hardware.


----------



## steve614

innocentfreak said:


> I know some people are already dreading it will look like TiVo Search just on every screen.


Really? I haven't read much opinion one way or another, but I think Tivo Search looks okay. If they manage to make the rest of the UI match the style of Tivo Search, I'll be OK with that.



innocentfreak said:


> Also there might be issues if the UI is designed for HD and you try to use it on a SD set similar to some games on the PS3 and 360 where the text can't be read.
> 
> 
> ZeoTiVo said:
> 
> 
> 
> TiVo gave that very reason of hard to support on all TV sets for why they did not just update what they had to HD format.
Click to expand...

I have no problem reading the Tivo Search BETA on my SD TV. Sure, the edges are cut off, but not so much I can't tell what's supposed to be there. That may be an issue with some people, but I understand the limited capability of my TV.



stmckin said:


> you can begin playback of Amazon content after a few minutes, so the streaming vs DL thing is simply splitting buffering hairs .... I can wait a couple of minutes (make a sandwich... go to the john... whatever) to get much enhanced playback and quality... Netflix stinks


Even thought the quality may not be that great, it was a bonus for me as I already had a Netflix subscription. 
My options: use Netflix for free or pay Amazon? I chose Netflix as content is more important than quality for me. YMMV.


----------



## innocentfreak

steve614 said:


> Really? I haven't read much opinion one way or another, but I think Tivo Search looks okay. If they manage to make the rest of the UI match the style of Tivo Search, I'll be OK with that.
> 
> I have no problem reading the Tivo Search BETA on my SD TV. Sure, the edges are cut off, but not so much I can't tell what's supposed to be there. That may be an issue with some people, but I understand the limited capability of my TV.


It hasn't been a ton, but there have been some on other forums who didn't care for the Search UI. I have never really messed with Search, but I would say it is more the fact you can't guarantee every SD set will handle it the same way. My 36" JVC SD set has a horrible time with some 360 games, but my friends 32" Sony never has problems. Another issue also would be if the font was a little smaller if it was designed to be on larger HD sets where it would be tiny on regular SD sets.


----------



## DocNo

jmpage2 said:


> Yes, my network must have throughput issues when the TiVo is the only box that constantly freezes and has to re-buffer during movie playback.


Your not going to get anywhere with them - were the idiots and there is nothing wrong with the box 

Never mind other devices on the exact same network connection have no issues 

They (and Tivo) can keep their head in the sand, but the sub trends are speaking for themselves


----------



## dolcevita

lessd said:


> TiVo is now packing the TiVo premiere Cable Card sheet in most of the newer TiVo-HD TiVos. From this sheet TiVo is going to introduce the TiVo Premiere and the TiVo Premiere XL (There is now only one manual for both the TiVo-HD and TiVo-HDXL). This new TiVo MUST use the M type CableCard,


This could pose a problem. I recently received a notice from Tivo that Comcast in my area is going all digital, so I need to finally install cable card(s). (I've been using OTA for HD). Local Comcast emphatically states they do not have the M cards, only the standard cablecards.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

DocNo said:


> Never mind other devices on the exact same network connection have no issues


you have not yet grasped that the other devices pull an entirely different file from an entirely different server at Netflix? rolleyes indeed.
People who jump on the first little pattern as the root casue just do not last long in my industry so I have no plans to take your pattern as root cause.


----------



## DocNo

xander777 said:


> Is anyone else excited that they may be getting a new HD interface for their existing Tivo HD or Series 3? If they can give me a fast HD interface, a guide that shows what I'm watching in the corner, apps etc... without me having to buy new hardware, that would be fantastic.


I'd be happy if the current interface was snappy. I don't see how on the existing hardware can handle it.



> I'm guessing the Premiere is probably similiar to the PS3 slim idea, does all the same stuff but at a cheaper cost for them to produce. I doubt it would be drastically different from the existing models since they have that whole user base to continue supporting. Just my $.02


Sigh - I hope not. I would happily pay more for a new box with more functionality if I had a reasonable assurance that the performance would at least stay the same. But I watched my S1 grind down over time, my S2s grind down over time and astonishingly my S3s grind down with each update 

And to add insult to injury there is no way to reject a software update or upgrade the box (by, say, adding more RAM) to try to address the root issues.

So you pay premium for hardware, and premium for a subscription, that eventually devalues into a crap experience. That's why as much as it pains me to even think about it, if I do any new hardware I fear it will be a Windows Media center PC. Yes, I will spend more - but not really that much more - than a Tivo box. Factor in not having to pay a sub or lifetime, and the balance shifts in favor of the Media Center PC. I can add multiple tuners and a huge chunk of storage easily. I can use my Xbox as an extender and not worry about copy protection flags...

Each one of these issues is, of itself, relatively minor but together they just add insult to injury. I realize some of it Tivo is hamstrung by industry, but some of the things like transfers companies like Microsoft seem to have it figured out.

Anyway, I'll be very interested to see what Tivo has under wraps. I certainly hope it's something compelling that addresses some of the basics above or things like social media integration aren't going to make a difference at all.


----------



## jmpage2

ZeoTiVo said:


> you have not yet grasped that the other devices pull an entirely different file from an entirely different server at Netflix? rolleyes indeed.
> People who jump on the first little pattern as the root casue just do not last long in my industry so I have no plans to take your pattern as root cause.


It doesn't matter where the problem is, there's a problem. Do you think that if Youtube videos stuttered on iPhones for 10% of users that Apple would tell them "tough, it must be the network or your wi-fi or something other than us"?

Of course not, because functionality of the core features is crucial to Apple so that the perception of the product is solid. They have put huge resources into debugging signal connections and other aspects EXTERNAL to their device to improve performance for their users.

If TiVo really cared about the issue they could contact users having the problem and set up some debugging in the box to figure out what was happening.

I have two TiVos that both do this. Both are on modern Cat5e wired networks. Other devices, on the same network, using the same cable-modem functionality are fine... yet, you and other TiVo apologists continue to insist that it's either;

1. Not an issue since you don't experience it.
2. Not TiVo's problem since it could be something external to the TiVo that is getting hosed up.

The thing you don't seem to understand (or stick your head in the sand about) is that we are paying a *monthly subscription* to TiVo for these services. This isn't a blu-ray player that I bought, paid one fee for and they are off the hook for helping debug issues. Come to think of it, my blu-ray players have all gotten firmware updates more frequently than TiVo has pushed software updates.

With your attitudes about customer service I'm sure glad you don't manage such things at a company with products I care about.

TiVo lost 21% of their subscribers from a year ago.

*TWENTY ONE PERCENT*.

That is a huge number. You'd think that they would be doing everything they could to not only improve the TiVo experience but also to innovate.

From the way that some of the TiVo love fest goes on around here you'd think they could continue to p!ss their customers off and that all will still be fine and dandy in the world of TiVo.

The reality is that if they don't do something they are going to be screwed... and you, as a lifetime subscriber of their services will also be screwed.


----------



## DocNo

ZeoTiVo said:


> you have not yet grasped that the other devices pull an entirely different file from an entirely different server at Netflix?


maybe you can't grasp that in the end it doesn't matter?

Compared to three other devices that share the exact same network connection the experience on Tivo is sub-par.



> rolleyes indeed.


Indeed


----------



## wmcbrine

dolcevita said:


> Local Comcast emphatically states they do not have the M cards, only the standard cablecards.


M cards _are_ standard CableCards. Single-stream cards are no longer produced, and haven't been for a while. Besides which, nobody you talk to at Comcast is likely to have a clue about this. Just ask for CableCards, and be pleasantly surprised when you receive multi-stream cards.


----------



## Luckyp79

I might not be grasping what everyone is trying to say but if it is not your network like you are saying then what is happening is that each device your PC, your PS3, your TiVo all pull the same movie from three different servers at Netflix.

So lets say that your network is perfect as it seems to be the most perfect network around and I would love to know the secret that you hold because I know that mine isn't.

So you are sitting at your three devices on your perfect network and you watch the same movie streamed to all three of your devises. Each device is connecting to a different server to watch that movie.

So if your network is perfect then it is on the Netflix side and you should maybe tell Netflix your secret for your perfect network skills.

I don't have any problems watching Netflix. Its as flawless as streaming can be. If I am having issues I just move my wireless adapter to a new spot. I try to find the best location for signal strength.

I love Netflix on my TiVo and that is the reason I bought my TiVo.


----------



## Brainiac 5

ZeoTiVo said:


> I am not saying TiVo has made a bullet proof box. They have in fact considered cost as prioroity in the design of the TiVo HD.


Granted. This seems most likely to be a software problem, though, which would not really have a per-box cost to fix.



> My point was simply that TiVo may not spend any resources on correcting that for specific cases and certainly wont if they are not made aware and be able to replicate it though that of ocurse would take some extensive testing in the person's home to find root cause.


Yes, agreed.



> A new hardware model or next years truck if you will, likely would oversomce some of these outliers as witnessed by the more extensive hardware of the PS3 or Xbox not displaying the same issue.


Well, I'm not sure that just faster hardware will fix the issue. I suspect that the PS3 and XBox don't have the issue not because they're faster, but because they don't have some software bug that the TiVo does. Unfortunately a new TiVo will probably have the same code for streaming from Netflix, so the bug may still be there. Although if they've significantly rewritten the Netflix application then maybe that won't be the case - one can hope...



> so I say again - C'mon new hardware.


Absolutely! 

I like getting new toys, whether the new hardware fixes everything or not.


----------



## Brainiac 5

ZeoTiVo said:


> you have not yet grasped that the other devices pull an entirely different file from an entirely different server at Netflix? rolleyes indeed.


If that's the case (I know it uses a different file from the PC), and TiVo is the only device that uses the particular files and servers that it uses, then TiVo and Netflix need to get together to find out why sending those files from those servers doesn't work for some people.

It certainly doesn't mean that there's not a problem, it just expands the possibilities for where the problem is to the servers.


----------



## johnm4

DocNo said:


> And to add insult to injury there is no way to reject a software update or upgrade the box (by, say, adding more RAM) to try to address the root issues.


It would be interesting if they could update the software to enable a ReadyBoost-like ability to the S3/HD.

ie. you plug a 4gb flash drive into a usb port and the TiVo uses it as a high-speed cache


----------



## dig_duggler

Does every thread turn into a Netflix thread? 

4 Days out, some leaked specs, what's a final prediction?


----------



## stmckin

dig_duggler said:


> Does every thread turn into a Netflix thread?
> 
> 4 Days out, some leaked specs, what's a final prediction?


again,,, netflix stinks.... I suppose it's worth the $9 a month, but amazon is the way to go if you aren't on welfare.

final prediction:
- There will be a new HD interface that might or might not come to S3/tivoHD, they dont know yet
- there will be a qwerty remote, but they dont have it worked out quite yet
- in 1 year (maybe 2) they will have a live Comcast streaming agreement to become a Uverse competitor and the Premier will support that when it happens (very likely cause Tivo must do something like this to survive and Comcast cant do it on crappy Moto boxes)


----------



## aaronwt

stmckin said:


> again,,, netflix stinks.... I suppose it's worth the $9 a month, but amazon is the way to go if you aren't on welfare.
> 
> final prediction:
> - There will be a new HD interface that might or might not come to S3/tivoHD, they dont know yet
> - there will be a qwerty remote, but they dont have it worked out quite yet
> - in 1 year (maybe 2) they will have a live Comcast streaming agreement to become a Uverse competitor and the Premier will support that when it happens (very likely cause Tivo must do something like this to survive and Comcast cant do it on crappy Moto boxes)


I'll choose Netflix over Amazon. Of course nothing comes close to VUDU except for a BD. So VUDU is my first choice. Netflix doesn't cost any extra which makes it a good value. Amazon has a cost and also looks like crap which puts it near the bottom.


----------



## lessd

stmckin said:


> final prediction:
> - There will be a new HD interface that might or might not come to S3/tivoHD, they dont know yet
> -


The Cable Card insert now packed with some new TiVo-HD units is for the Premier /Premier-XL boxes and has two screens shots of the Cable card setup menu, and both are not in HD, they are the same as the TiVo-HD but only show one Cable Card slot. This may mean nothing as TiVo may have updated the UI after this picture was taken..or not.


----------



## MichaelK

DocNo said:


> ...by all means, layer on more features that a minority of users will use that will probably slow the @^&@! box down more and drive off more of the core users that have kept Tivo going all these years. ....





DocNo said:


> ...
> 
> I've been a Tivo proponent since 2001, and for most people I'm still a Tivo proponent, but Tivo is still a niche product - and as others have pointed out it's becoming more of a niche product. It's not growing, it's shrinking. DirecTV vs. CableCard in the end really doesn't matter - their subscriber base is shrinking
> 
> ....


this is sort of an interesting delimma for company's selling a product that aren't profitable. Clearly us "core users" dont get them enough revenue to stay in business- we're all some "niche". So they have to add other stuff (that plenty of us will think is "crap"- just see the negetive posts about adding netflix, amaxon, blockbuster, youtube, etc) to try and get other demographics to buy in.

But by adding the other 'crap' they potentially chase us away.

not a good situation to be in for tivo....


----------



## MichaelK

innocentfreak said:


> ... Also there might be issues if the UI is designed for HD and you try to use it on a SD set similar to some games on the PS3 and 360 where the text can't be read....


as an option I'm fine with alternative SD support. But i can't wait for the day when Tivo, the networks, and everyone else bails on 'protecting' sd. I'd prefer SD users get inconvenienced every now and again rather than HD users.

I'm sick of fuzzy text on the tivo UI.

I'm sick of network bugs in the middle of the screen.

i can't stand when I watch sports and they jam the 'scorebar' into the middle 2/3rds of the screen so I have to wait for them to flip back and forth between different info instead of them just including it all accross the entire width of the screen.

at some point we need to move on and go to 16:9 HD format for things.

I'm not sure of the mix in the real world so I wont demand it today- but i really can't wait for the death of 4:3 and SD formating.

I'd assume that in general the large majority of people plunking down the cash upfront to buy an HD Tivo and then pay monthly fees typically have it connected to an HD set (although obviously there are some folks who dont). So hopefully tivo gets there before the networks.


----------



## MichaelK

johnm4 said:


> It would be interesting if they could update the software to enable a ReadyBoost-like ability to the S3/HD.
> 
> ie. you plug a 4gb flash drive into a usb port and the TiVo uses it as a high-speed cache


thats an Awesome idea!!!


----------



## nrc

aaronwt said:


> I'll choose Netflix over Amazon. Of course nothing comes close to VUDU except for a BD. So VUDU is my first choice. Netflix doesn't cost any extra which makes it a good value. Amazon has a cost and also looks like crap which puts it near the bottom.


Nothing I've ever downloaded from Amazon in HD has looked like crap. They've all played flawlessly at 1080i and looked about as good as most of my subscription HD movie channels.


----------



## solutionsetc

MichaelK said:


> I'm sick of network bugs in the middle of the screen.
> 
> i can't stand when I watch sports and they jam the 'scorebar' into the middle 2/3rds of the screen so I have to wait for them to flip back and forth between different info instead of them just including it all accross the entire width of the screen.


And you don't even mention that the majority of shows broadcast in HD are still framed for 4:3 because it is the same feed used for SD (just cropped). Even the Super Bowl very annoying!

Now we're talking about 3-D, but we really don't even have HD content yet (from the standpoint that cameramen and directors are not composing for the format).

As far as backward compatibility goes my feeling is that few will go out in 2010 and pay a couple of hundred bucks (and service) for a TiVo with plans to hook it up to their dusty old SD set.


----------



## memzinla

I just want a fast UI.


----------



## innocentfreak

solutionsetc said:


> As far as backward compatibility goes my feeling is that few will go out in 2010 and pay a couple of hundred bucks (and service) for a TiVo with plans to hook it up to their dusty old SD set.


Well I would be one of them. I still haven't upgraded since I haven't convinced myself to make the investment. I am just too cheap to drop the cash to upgrade from my 36" SD CRT.

Then again I only record HD since I can't stand centercut and this is one of the reasons I jumped from DTV to Fios. Fios doesn't charge extra for HD.


----------



## Sapphire

MichaelK said:


> thats an Awesome idea!!!


Didn't SiliconDust develop something like that years ago for the S1?


----------



## Sapphire

nrc said:


> Nothing I've ever downloaded from Amazon in HD has looked like crap. They've all played flawlessly at 1080i and looked about as good as most of my subscription HD movie channels.


That's not saying much. Even FiOS has (or had anyway) HBO HD at less than 10Mbps.


----------



## nrc

Raj said:


> That's not saying much. Even FiOS has (or had anyway) HBO HD at less than 10Mbps.


It's still a higher bitrate than most people can stream.


----------



## David Platt

Raj said:


> Didn't SiliconDust develop something like that years ago for the S1?


Yeah, the CacheCard. It wasn't USB storage, but an adapter that plugged into a free slot on the motherboard that let you add extra RAM to the TiVo. It worked beautifully.


----------



## codog24

Amen.



memzinla said:


> I just want a fast UI.


----------



## ItsRounder

I have to say I'll be shocked and amazed if this announcement is actually about anything I've been wanting them to change for quite a while now. I have the feeling that this will be a huge letdown. I really, really hope I'm wrong though.


----------



## MickeS

ItsRounder said:


> I have to say I'll be shocked and amazed if this announcement is actually about anything I've been wanting them to change for quite a while now. I have the feeling that this will be a huge letdown. I really, really hope I'm wrong though.


If what you have been wanting them to change is related to recording TV, I think you're right.


----------



## jmpage2

stmckin said:


> again,,, netflix stinks.... I suppose it's worth the $9 a month, but amazon is the way to go if you aren't on welfare.
> 
> final prediction:
> - There will be a new HD interface that might or might not come to S3/tivoHD, they dont know yet
> - there will be a qwerty remote, but they dont have it worked out quite yet
> - in 1 year (maybe 2) they will have a live Comcast streaming agreement to become a Uverse competitor and the Premier will support that when it happens (very likely cause Tivo must do something like this to survive and Comcast cant do it on crappy Moto boxes)


What an incredibly insulting comment. Some of us use Netflix as our primary mechanism for movie watching, not because we are on welfare, but because we have very high end home theater setups and would prefer the bulk of our material to be delivered in Blu-ray format.

While instant downloads do offer some convenience, until they match the quality of a 25 or 50GB BD disc they will still be vastly inferior for the stuff we actually care about watching.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

jmpage2 said:


> What an incredibly insulting comment. Some of us use Netflix as our primary mechanism for movie watching, not because we are on welfare, but because we have very high end home theater setups and would prefer the bulk of our material to be delivered in Blu-ray format.


I think he meant the instant view streaming stuff.
Ironically the thought that came to my mind when reading his post was - well if money or convience is not an issue and I care about getting the best quality then I would skip all the broadband stuff entirely and use Blu-ray


----------



## ZeoTiVo

David Platt said:


> Yeah, the CacheCard. It wasn't USB storage, but an adapter that plugged into a free slot on the motherboard that let you add extra RAM to the TiVo. It worked beautifully.


Just for clarity's sake-
the way to attach that card is not present in Series 2 or beyond so there is nothing for them


----------



## innocentfreak

In regards to your post in the final prediction thread.



ZeoTiVo said:


> they will likely leave the SD menus as classic for those that want to keep using them and for SD sets


I will be curious especially since I am still using SD sets even though I record HD only. It would also be somewhat disappointing if a new HD UI doesn't work in SD or have a SD option. Then again maybe it will make me buy a new HD TV or two.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

innocentfreak said:


> In regards to your post in the final prediction thread.
> 
> I will be curious especially since I am still using SD sets even though I record HD only. It would also be somewhat disappointing if a new HD UI doesn't work in SD or have a SD option. Then again maybe it will make me buy a new HD TV or two.


The new HD menu will likely 'work' on SD sets the same way TiVo search does now. I think it would be more work than it is worth for TiVo to try and recreate something like TiVo search in SD or more specifically 4:3 format. If it was me I would let the current SD menus suffice (with changes for new features) and watch the 4:3 format sets fade over time. I mean this is on an HD capable TiVo DVR after all.


----------



## innocentfreak

ZeoTiVo said:


> The new HD menu will likely 'work' on SD sets the same way TiVo search does now. I think it would be more work than it is worth for TiVo to try and recreate something like TiVo search in SD or more specifically 4:3 format. If it was me I would let the current SD menus suffice (with changes for new features) and watch the 4:3 format sets fade over time. I mean this is on an HD capable TiVo DVR after all.


I guess I should look at TiVo Search. It always popped something up when I went into it about not being on HD so I never tried playing with it.

Yeah it makes sense lol.


----------



## walkingdogs

aaronwt said:


> I'll choose Netflix over Amazon. Of course nothing comes close to VUDU except for a BD. So VUDU is my first choice. Netflix doesn't cost any extra which makes it a good value. Amazon has a cost and also looks like crap which puts it near the bottom.


If we could somehow get VUDU, Slingesque functionality and Boxee integration in to TiVo hardware they would rule the home entertainment world. There would be no need for any other device, which I would gladly welcome. I do have to disagree that Amazon looks like crap though. I'm actually quite happy with the Videos I have rented thus far but would gladly abandon it for VUDU.


----------



## innocentfreak

Well I caught just the last few seconds of the engadget HD live podcast comments on the Tivo Premiere. Apparently Ben and I don't think Richard was either are under embargo so if they know they didn't hear it from TiVo. It will be curious to see what if any coverage engadgethd has tomorrow or if someone from engadget is covering it. 

They did say the people who were under embargo that they saw at CES were kind of meh about what they saw. They just didn't get the impression they were missing anything by not seeing what was by appointment only.

They started early so I missed all the TiVo talk and the podcast won't be out till after the announcement.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Sorry if this has been posted already...

What time is this event supposed to take place?

Edit: I think I found it: 6:00 PM. Please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## Enrique

DCIFRTHS said:


> Sorry if this has been posted already...
> 
> What time is this event supposed to take place?


6PM is what the invite says.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/tivo-event-nyc.jpg


----------



## innocentfreak

Also I think he said the embargo is lifted around 7 PM EST so we should know around then.


----------



## LoREvanescence

I'm looking forward to see what comes out of this announcment.

I haven't been following it closely so I'm not sure what to expect. Are we looking at just a new box from Best Buy or something that will come to existing Series3's too? I guess I'll have to wait until tonight after work to check back and see what comes out of this=)


----------



## BlackBetty

I wonder if some time tonight the TCF will create a new forum called: *TiVo Series4 HDTV DVRs*


----------



## Mike Lang

BlackBetty said:


> I wonder if some time tonight the TCF will create a new forum called: *TiVo Series4 HDTV DVRs*


Not exactly


----------



## LoREvanescence

Mike Lang said:


> Not exactly


haha, take out Series 4 then and replace it with Premier:up:

Looking forward to see what comes out tonight, to bad I don't get home from work until 10:00pm tonight


----------



## TerpBE

I think anybody who expects any type of sling capability is fooling themselves. It seems like somebody said, "hey it would be cool if Tivo had an integrated slingbox", and people just ran with it so that it's now considered to be a legitimate part of the conversation. It reminds me of when "Project Ginger" was projected to be a new cold fusion power generator/water purifier, and it turned out to just be a scooter.

I'd be happy if I was wrong though.


----------



## adessmith

TerpBE said:


> I think anybody who expects any type of sling capability is fooling themselves. It seems like somebody said, "hey it would be cool if Tivo had an integrated slingbox", and people just ran with it so that it's now considered to be a legitimate part of the conversation. It reminds me of when "Project Ginger" was projected to be a new cold fusion power generator/water purifier, and it turned out to just be a scooter.
> 
> I'd be happy if I was wrong though.


As much as I hope you are wrong, I totally agree!
I dont think there has been any legitimate hint that tivo might be even discovering this posibility. I do believe that it would be a KILLER addition, one that I've been dying to see for some time.
However, with that said, I've just noticed that the sling box is no longer offered on the shopping page of tivos website... Does anyone know how long this has been the case? I remember that I came very close to purchasing one on the order with my last Tivo HD, so I know it was there in the past.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

LoREvanescence said:


> haha, take out Series 4 then and replace it with Premier:up:
> 
> Looking forward to see what comes out tonight, to bad I don't get home from work until 10:00pm tonight


there really is no reason to make a new forum IMHO until a tru2way DVR is out - I doubt we will see one in 2010 due to the cable and CE companies still dithering about all the final pieces of the open standard.


----------



## magnus

Yep, would just need to need to remove the word Series3 from the current one.


----------



## innocentfreak

adessmith said:


> As much as I hope you are wrong, I totally agree!
> I dont think there has been any legitimate hint that tivo might be even discovering this posibility. I do believe that it would be a KILLER addition, one that I've been dying to see for some time.
> However, with that said, I've just noticed that the sling box is no longer offered on the shopping page of tivos website... Does anyone know how long this has been the case? I remember that I came very close to purchasing one on the order with my last Tivo HD, so I know it was there in the past.


Most of the people referring to sling capabilities got the info from the various tech blogs where a tipster sent them info that TiVo would also announce.

engadget


> Other fixes that should have the faithful drooling are a capacity meter for add-on drives and Tivo Desktop enhancements including "Sling-esque" features.


Thinking about this now makes some sense that it would now be possible especially on Windows 7. This is supposed to already work for 7MC with a remote connection through a laptop also running Windows 7.


----------



## innocentfreak

ZeoTiVo said:


> there really is no reason to make a new forum IMHO until a tru2way DVR is out - I doubt we will see one in 2010 due to the cable and CE companies still dithering about all the final pieces of the open standard.


Well if they have a different UI then I would say they need to make a separate forum for the Premieres. Of course this could also mean the older models will also have the new UI. Then again he could be referring to the fact they won't need to make one tonight since according to the BB leak we won't see them until the 27th.


----------



## MickeS

Is the UI speed problem limited to certain models? I have a 648-series 3 model with a 750GB HD (full), and I don't notice any problems with speed in the UI. There were some issues a few software revisions ago, but I haven't seen any problems for a long time.


----------



## schwinn

ferrumpneuma said:


> A USB flash memory could be used in the way the cache card worked in the S1. I think its a great idea to boost the UI speed.


FlashRAM is way too slow compared to system RAM. The Cache Card used RAM (not flash) to do its job, which is why it works so well. USB sticks are too slow (flash-ram).

More RAM would be nice, in general... upgradable RAM would be nice, but I doubt that will ever happen.


----------



## b_scott

I think in order to really compete with Moxi and Windows Media Center PC's, Tivo is going to have to evolve into more of a media center than it already is. They need a sleek interface, and good search/easy recording, plus being able to stream media (not transfer to .tivo format).


----------



## b_scott

any way to get rid of the stupid redundant useless "HD Recordings" folder?

also, I want a way to save your season passes to their site online same as you can see your To Do Lists, etc. In case your box dies or you upgrade, then you don't have to re-do them all (and ones that aren't in the guide yet won't even be searchable anyway)


----------



## shady

b_scott said:


> also, I want a way to save your season passes to their site online same as you can see your To Do Lists, etc. In case your box dies or you upgrade, then you don't have to re-do them all (and ones that aren't in the guide yet won't even be searchable anyway)


I believe someone discovered that season passes are preserved when you upgrade your box. Something to do with a side benefit of kidzone?


----------



## b_scott

shady said:


> I believe someone discovered that season passes are preserved when you upgrade your box. Something to do with a side benefit of kidzone?


how?


----------



## daveak

shady said:


> I believe someone discovered that season passes are preserved when you upgrade your box. Something to do with a side benefit of kidzone?


Just turn Kid Zone on and you have the side benefit, nothing else you need to do. TiVo, of course, does not garuntee this benefit - nor do they advertise it, but it is there.


----------



## MichaelK

schwinn said:


> FlashRAM is way too slow compared to system RAM. The Cache Card used RAM (not flash) to do its job, which is why it works so well. USB sticks are too slow (flash-ram).
> 
> More RAM would be nice, in general... upgradable RAM would be nice, but I doubt that will ever happen.


but isn't the basic problem that tivo just needs to access the database on the drive at times and so it has to mix that in with recording and playback? So caching the database completely on the USB drive would help- no?

not really relevant to the premier but since we're stalling for 6 o'clock anyway...


----------



## MichaelK

daveak said:


> Just turn Kid Zone on and you have the side benefit, nothing else you need to do. TiVo, of course, does not garuntee this benefit - nor do they advertise it, but it is there.


I thought you had to subscribe to one of the guru guides to get that to work?


----------



## kevinwill1

daveak said:


> Just turn Kid Zone on and you have the side benefit, nothing else you need to do. TiVo, of course, does not garuntee this benefit - nor do they advertise it, but it is there.


Does this work for all versions of the TiVo? Or is this something restricted to only Series 3 or HD? All of my current boxes are Series 2, and I would love to upgrade as seemlessly as possible when the time comes.


----------



## MichaelK

kevinwill1 said:


> Does this work for all versions of the TiVo? Or is this something restricted to only Series 3 or HD? All of my current boxes are Series 2, and I would love to upgrade as seemlessly as possible when the time comes.


I beleive you need to 'order' a guru guide. It causes the tivo service (eg the website or more specifically the tivo servers) to see what is on your box already so that it can figure out when you have open space to tell the box to record guru ghuide stuff too.

But it's box specific - so you could pull your drive and put a new on in and it will repopulate- but you can't someone get your S2' season passes onto an S3 (or something newer).


----------



## b_scott

MichaelK said:


> I beleive you need to 'order' a guru guide. It causes the tivo service (eg the website or more specifically the tivo servers) to see what is on your box already so that it can figure out when you have open space to tell the box to record guru ghuide stuff too.
> 
> But it's box specific - so you could pull your drive and put a new on in and it will repopulate- *but you can't someone get your S2' season passes onto an S3 (or something newer)*.


yeah, that last line is what I'm talking about. Like if I upgraded to whatever new Tivo is coming out.


----------



## daveak

daveak said:


> Just turn Kid Zone on and you have the side benefit, nothing else you need to do. TiVo, of course, does not garuntee this benefit - nor do they advertise it, but it is there.


As stated above, I think you will need a Guru guide as well. I have both so I know I'm good. It's not like you can find the instructions on the TiVo website...


----------



## timstack8969

Will the TIVO Annoucement be on any TV channel at 6:00PM (G4 TV Maybe?) or on the internet?


----------



## turbobozz

MickeS said:


> Is the UI speed problem limited to certain models? I have a 648-series 3 model with a 750GB HD (full), and I don't notice any problems with speed in the UI. There were some issues a few software revisions ago, but I haven't seen any problems for a long time.


TiVo Search is painfully slow as it is now, but it's an HME.

The native S3 platform UI response is roughly the same as S2 platform and other reasonably well tuned cable co DVRs (which use similar ~CPUs).

The native S3 UI isn't particularly slow **in general**, but it is noticeably slower than a computer UI or xbox 360 or PS3.


----------



## innocentfreak

I don't think anyone is livestreaming the event. It would be nice, but come 7 we should have everything online assuming some people finished writing.


----------



## kevinwill1

innocentfreak said:


> I don't think anyone is livestreaming the event. It would be nice, but come 7 we should have everything online assuming some people finished writing.


Oh yes, a livestream would be awesome. I have seen/read of a few tech writers and bloggers say they would provide blow-by-blow blogs, but that is about it.


----------



## gymbo731

where are these blogs???

If anyone can find a live stream, please post!!!!


----------



## LoadStar

timstack8969 said:


> Will the TIVO Annoucement be on any TV channel at 6:00PM (G4 TV Maybe?) or on the internet?


Naah. Apple doesn't even get live TV coverage, and the press goes nuts about their stuff.

Besides, G4 wouldn't be any more likely to carry it than anyone else; their focus has completely changed since they were either "TechTV" or "G4 - TV for Gamers." They're basically a SpikeTV knockoff now.


----------



## b_scott

http://newshopper.sulekha.com/tivo-redo_photo_1196004.htm


----------



## dswallow

http://www.apimages.com/Search.aspx...e=and&adte=1267558365&pagez=60&cfasstyle=AND&


----------



## orangeboy

It's 6:00!!!


----------



## Enrique

I guess someone forgot to read.

* HOLD FOR RELEASE TUESDAY, MARCH 2, 7:01 P.M., E.S.T **


----------



## shorties

I like the look of that new OS, I hope it comes to current TiVo HD's and runs smoothly. Oh and someone at AP needs to learn their time zone math... haha 

Oh and is anyone liveblogging the event? I assume it would of already been posted here if so, plus since it looks like TiVo let some of the press see this early, I assume probably some are just waiting till 7 EST to post everything.


----------



## SafariKC

http://www.apimages.com/OneUp.aspx?...age=1&xslt=1&dispname=100302120611, TiVo Redo


----------



## Enrique

dswallow said:


> http://www.apimages.com/Search.aspx...e=and&adte=1267558365&pagez=60&cfasstyle=AND&





SafariKC said:


> http://www.apimages.com/OneUp.aspx?...age=1&xslt=1&dispname=100302120611, TiVo Redo


Smeek.


----------



## SafariKC

http://www.apimages.com/OneUp.aspx?...age=1&xslt=1&dispname=100302120520, TiVo Redo


----------



## SafariKC

doh! totally missed the fact that it was already posted.


----------



## dswallow

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10462438-1.html

NEW YORK--TiVo on Tuesday officially announced two new DVRs that offer an updated user interface and enhanced integration and search capabilities for online video. [...]


----------



## I WANT MORE

Whoopie. Big Deal.


----------



## Jasoco

I still have an $800 TiVo Series 3 I bought in 2006 that works fine. All I'm interested in are UI improvements. As long as they center on recorded content like a TiVo should, and not downloaded pay content like Netflix and such like the AppleTV ended up as. That store-centric UI for AppleTV 2.0 is why I sold my AppleTV. Don't make me sell my TiVo. I don't want no pay content being shoved in my face. 

That's really my big concern. And sadly the way many companies are going these days.

What I would like is for whatever software they push to older devices to allow internet remotes to play a show by its ID. Right now all they can do is display a list of the shows on your TiVo. But they can't send a command to actually play that show. You can perform any other command the remote has, but can't tell the TiVo to "play recording_id4124". Weird.

Will Series 3's and TiVo HD's be getting this new updated UI? I'd be pretty mad if it didn't. Especially after paying $800 for this thing.


----------



## mchief

Same old crap - now in HD


----------



## anthonymoody

Wow seriously? This is it? Yikes. Even if it's much more responsive...which it better be...ummm....wow.


----------



## Airhead315

Jasoco said:


> I still have an $800 TiVo Series 3 I bought in 2006 that works fine. All I'm interested in are UI improvements. As long as they center on recorded content like a TiVo should, and not downloaded pay content like Netflix and such like the AppleTV ended up as. That store-centric UI for AppleTV 2.0 is why I sold my AppleTV. Don't make me sell my TiVo. I don't want no pay content being shoved in my face.
> 
> That's really my big concern. And sadly the way many companies are going these days.
> 
> What I would like is for whatever software they push to older devices to allow internet remotes to play a show by its ID. Right now all they can do is display a list of the shows on your TiVo. But they can't send a command to actually play that show. You can perform any other command the remote has, but can't tell the TiVo to "play recording_id4124". Weird.
> 
> Will Series 3's and TiVo HD's be getting this new updated UI? I'd be pretty mad if it didn't. Especially after paying $800 for this thing.


I am fairly concerned that the series 3 will not get this interface...the article mentioned specifically the addition of content providers to the series 3 models but seemed to specifically omit saying it when discussing the new HD UI...


----------



## b_scott

we'd better get the updated interface. These systems should be fine running Windows 7 if they can run Vista.


----------



## dig_duggler

"Inventing the DVR was just a warmup..."

To a HD UI with integrated search! And a new (optional) qwerty remote!

Seriously? I knew I'd be disappointed and all, but jeez....


----------



## steve614

> TiVo Series 3 and HD owners will never see the new UI and are out of luck. I assume its mostly due to prior generation processing power and architecture.


http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-03/the-tivo-premiere-is-here/


----------



## dig_duggler

This software will not come to Series 3 models (or earlier)


----------



## donnoh

It looks like from the screen shot that this UI won't be pushed down to the series 3. Notice the A B C selections that are on the screen shot, how would they implement that on the old remotes?


----------



## dswallow

Jasoco said:


> Will Series 3's and TiVo HD's be getting this new updated UI? I'd be pretty mad if it didn't. Especially after paying $800 for this thing.


No apparently it won't.

I'm not mad. I'm disappointed, though.

But they chose Flash. I sure hope they got paid by Adobe to use that piece of crap concept, though.

From the info out so far, I see little real reason to upgrade; but then I'm what they call a DVR user... I don't really care about the rest of the stuff as long as it reliably records what I tell it to record and plays back reliably what it records.

We'll see how the street pricing works out, especially with incentive deals to existing subscribers. A couple hundred dollars is really no big deal anyway; but $500 and $200 discounted lifetime on top of it isn't really attractive for the benefits identified so far.


----------



## innocentfreak

A couple things I am really curious about. They say you can pause the program in the corner, but can you disable it. Also how much faster are transfer times from the HD?


----------



## Undertakernv

Not happy with the new TiVo. I was hoping to be stunned but they've confirmed my plans to build an HTPC.


----------



## dig_duggler

"Inventing the DVR was just a warmup"

Okay, whoever has drank the most koolaid tell me how this lives up to that tagline? This is not a game changer.


----------



## Jasoco

Airhead315 said:


> I am fairly concerned that the series 3 will not get this interface...the article mentioned specifically the addition of content providers to the series 3 models but seemed to specifically omit saying it when discussing the new HD UI...


If they do that, that's bullcrap. We've lived with this old stretched outdated UI for years. The resolution got higher but the UI stayed the same. We deserve the new UI at least.

I'd buy a new TiVo Premier, (150 hours of HD is dreamy) but my $800 S3 still works fine. There's no reason to, especially since I paid 800 freaking dollars for it!

Come on, TiVo. Don't let me down! I don't care about content providers! The only content I want on my TiVo is TV that I recorded! Not rented movies. Not video web sites, pay or free. Nothing. Just whatever happens to come over my cable line. Don't pull an Apple on us, TiVo.



dig_duggler said:


> "Inventing the DVR was just a warmup"
> 
> Okay, whoever has drank the most koolaid tell me how this lives up to that tagline? This is not a game changer.


Sounds like they wanted to be more like Apple. So I guess a new design and new UI counts. But does it have unibody construction and ambient light sensors?


----------



## bigpatky

still only 2 tuners?


----------



## hurl03

dswallow said:


> http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10462438-1.html
> 
> NEW YORK--TiVo on Tuesday officially announced two new DVRs that offer an updated user interface and enhanced integration and search capabilities for online video. [...]


this is going to require a bluetooth dongle.... why no internal bluetooth?


----------



## DCIFRTHS

hurl03 said:


> this is going to require a bluetooth dongle.... why no internal bluetooth?


I saw confirmation of no internal wireless networking, but has it been confirmed that there is no internal Bluetooth?


----------



## fatlard

To all you thinking about jumping ship, current Moxi users will welcome you with open arms.
Live Streaming, 3 tuners, DLNA, No ads, no fees 

So long Tivo


----------



## samo

LOL! The two major changes to UI are PIP and free space indicator. They have been discussed here for years with many people arguing that nobody wants them, nobody needs them and that PIP is the worst thing ever.
Should we start bashing TiVo for including these two features that have been missing for years?


----------



## xboard07

fatlard said:


> To all you thinking about jumping ship, Moxi will welcome you with open arms.
> Live Streaming, 3 tuners, DLNA, No ads
> 
> So long Tivo


that's what I'm starting to think


----------



## audioscience

bigpatky said:


> still only 2 tuners?


Seriously, how many tuners does anyone need?

Maybe more hobbies are what you should be looking for?


----------



## daveak

They still need to get rid of the HD XL units on TiVo.com, still showing available. Special deals?


----------



## TWinbrook46636

hurl03 said:


> this is going to require a bluetooth dongle.... why no internal bluetooth?


And the new wifi adapter needs to be plugged into a power outlet...


----------



## innocentfreak

audioscience said:


> Seriously, how many tuners does anyone need?
> 
> Maybe more hobbies are what you should be looking for?


I need enough that I don't have to deal with conflicts or padding issues for those networks that can't tell time.


----------



## Enrique

audioscience said:


> Seriously, how many tuners does anyone need?
> 
> Maybe more hobbies are what you should be looking for?


More the two I could tell you right now.


----------



## magnus

Ok, I have to say that I am underwhelmed. 

1) no extra tuners
2) no DLNA
3) no cooperative scheduling
4) no virtual tuners
5) no Hulu

It seems like a nice box but does not seem like it warranted the hype.


----------



## hurl03

DCIFRTHS said:


> I saw confirmation of no internal wireless networking, but has it been confirmed that there is no internal Bluetooth?


However, when it's available later this year for an undisclosed price, there's a big catch: It will come with a USB dongle. The Premiere doesn't have Bluetooth for reasons we don't really understand (it's not expensive at all to stick a Bluetooth chip into even small devices like cellphones now). So, somewhat anticlimactically, TiVo's flagship remote will require a Bluetooth dongle (on top of the Wi-Fi dongle you'll probably need). I wouldn't call this a dealbreaker, but for a company that designs a very small ecosystem of hardware, it's not the best thought-out plan, is it?


----------



## TivoQueensDad

My old Tivo box died a while back. I've been waiting for Tivo's new announcement for about a year. Are they serious?

No built-in WiFi - $90 to add!
"Upgraded" remote another expensive extra!
No way of sharing programming throughout the house without paying fees for every TV in the house!

Moxi or Cablevision's upcoming RS-DVR here I come.

What a shame.


----------



## lvthunder

dig_duggler said:


> "Inventing the DVR was just a warmup"
> 
> Okay, whoever has drank the most koolaid tell me how this lives up to that tagline? This is not a game changer.


I'll take a swing at this. All these CE device makers are seeing TV over the internet as the thing that's going to take cable down. TiVo is creating a device that can harness all these different sites. They needed to upgrade the hardware to do all the processing that internet TV requires. So they created a new box and a new UI (heck it may even be a new OS too) so they can proceed to be the leader in internet TV. Again this is just the start to this and it will expand as time moves on just like the Series 1 did. It will be interesting to see what all has changed under the hood when the hackers get their hands on this.


----------



## magnus

Will I be able to use my current bluetooth keyboard with my Tivo?



hurl03 said:


> However, when it's available later this year for an undisclosed price, there's a big catch: It will come with a USB dongle. The Premiere doesn't have Bluetooth for reasons we don't really understand (it's not expensive at all to stick a Bluetooth chip into even small devices like cellphones now). So, somewhat anticlimactically, TiVo's flagship remote will require a Bluetooth dongle (on top of the Wi-Fi dongle you'll probably need). I wouldn't call this a dealbreaker, but for a company that designs a very small ecosystem of hardware, it's not the best thought-out plan, is it?


----------



## Flyinace2000

I just paid for the $299 lifetime on my TiVoHD that is a year old. I am thinking of buying a Series4 tomorrow and transferring.


----------



## innocentfreak

Probably worth it, but then there is also according to Zatz deals they will have for existing lifetime users. Might not be a bad deal depending on what it is if you need 2.


----------



## lvthunder

magnus said:


> Ok, I have to say that I am underwhelmed.
> 
> 1) no extra tuners
> 2) no DLNA
> 3) no cooperative scheduling
> 4) no virtual tuners
> 5) no Hulu
> 
> It seems like a nice box but does not seem like it warranted the hype.


Numbers 2,3, and 5 can be taken care of with a software update just like TiVo software in the past they add new features later (Netflix, 2nd D* tuner, etc). This just looks like a new foundation they can build on.

What is a virtual tuner?


----------



## TWinbrook46636

fatlard said:


> To all you thinking about jumping ship, current Moxi users will welcome you with open arms.
> Live Streaming, 3 tuners, DLNA, No ads, no fees
> 
> So long Tivo


I've been thinking about it for a while and this clinches it. At least now I don't have to wait any longer.


----------



## magnus

I like the idea of Tivo being able to record Lost for me (for example). I had a power outage for 4 days and it would have been nice to be able to download TV shows that I missed while I had no power.

So, Tivo could store certain shows on their servers for an on demand feature. And maybe each user can download x amount of shows for free and then the rest would have to be purchased elsewhere.



lvthunder said:


> Numbers 2,3, and 5 can be taken care of with a software update just like TiVo software in the past they add new features later (Netflix, 2nd D* tuner, etc). This just looks like a new foundation they can build on.
> 
> What is a virtual tuner?


----------



## fatlard

magnus said:


> Ok, I have to say that I am underwhelmed.
> 
> 1) no extra tuners
> 2) no DLNA
> 3) no cooperative scheduling
> 4) no virtual tuners
> 5) no Hulu
> 
> It seems like a nice box but does not seem like it warranted the hype.


1. Moxi
2. Moxi
5. Moxi

3 tuner Moxi with no fees for $599
http://moxi.com/us/moxi_dvr.html


----------



## dig_duggler

lvthunder said:


> I'll take a swing at this. All these CE device makers are seeing TV over the internet as the thing that's going to take cable down. TiVo is creating a device that can harness all these different sites. They needed to upgrade the hardware to do all the processing that internet TV requires. So they created a new box and a new UI (heck it may even be a new OS too) so they can proceed to be the leader in internet TV. Again this is just the start to this and it will expand as time moves on just like the Series 1 did. It will be interesting to see what all has changed under the hood when the hackers get their hands on this.


C'mon. The DVR changed everything. There was nothing like it. It blew people's minds.

What kills me is that this doesn't actually add anything new in terms of capabilities. Youtube, Amazon, it was all already there. There isn't anything new but an UI and the way you use it.

And I know you are trying with what you got, but all of the things you listed as game changing are potentials, not in the delivered product.

This is not going to fix the floodgate of lost subscribers.


----------



## magnus

Will the new box search my other Tivos on the network to see if they have the show? I see the convergence of the other media as a good idea but what about your own network.


----------



## JimboG

fatlard said:


> 1. Moxi
> 2. Moxi
> 5. Moxi


Over the air HDTV tuners and the ability to tell the cable company to go to hell? Not with Moxi.

I think a $60 Avermedia Duet card and Windows 7 Media Center with no subscription fees offers a better alternative to Tivo Premiere than Moxi.


----------



## djwilso

Wow, what a complete letdown.

I was really, really hoping for 3 or 4 tuners and perhaps an extender to be able to stream from a main TiVo to another TV...

The Moxi guys must be thrilled at this news.


----------



## b_scott

I see Cable Video on Demand in the screenshots. Does that mean you can now do VOD on Comcast finally for instance?


----------



## lvthunder

dig_duggler said:


> C'mon. The DVR changed everything. There was nothing like it. It blew people's minds.
> 
> What kills me is that this doesn't actually add anything new in terms of capabilities. Youtube, Amazon, it was all already there. There isn't anything new but an UI and the way you use it.
> 
> And I know you are trying with what you got, but all of the things you listed as game changing are potentials, not in the delivered product.
> 
> This is not going to fix the floodgate of lost subscribers.


If most people are correct and everything is going internet based and you can tell {insert expensive TV provider here} to go pound sand you wouldn't classify that as changing everything?

If that happens someone is going to have to aggregate it all together. TiVo is trying to be that someone.

But mostly I think this is a new platform then the old stuff. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a lot on the OS level that has changed with the new UI. Why else would they switch the technology the UI was written in.


----------



## SnakeEyes

Flash will be dead in a couple years.


----------



## fatlard

djwilso said:


> Wow, what a complete letdown.
> 
> I was really, really hoping for 3 or 4 tuners and perhaps an extender to be able to stream from a main TiVo to another TV...
> 
> The Moxi guys must be thrilled at this news.


I would not say that we are thrilled with this news. I would be more thrilled if Tivo actually delivered on what most people here wanted. That way there would be more competition.

I am thrilled that some Tivo defenders here can finally eat some crow regarding how they think Tivo is best DVR out there... which I think is no longer the case.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

samo said:


> LOL! The two major changes to UI are PIP and free space indicator. They have been discussed here for years with many people arguing that nobody wants them, nobody needs them and that PIP is the worst thing ever.
> Should we start bashing TiVo for including these two features that have been missing for years?


they are indeed two things I have never worried much about at all. My wife will like PIP so it will let me do some menu things without her getting irritated quite so fast 

All in all it was an odd tagline for simply introducing the new hardware and its flash UI. The real potential will not be seen for a year or more on this new hardware. *sigh*


----------



## ewines

djwilso said:


> Wow, what a complete letdown.
> 
> I was really, really hoping for 3 or 4 tuners and perhaps an extender to be able to stream from a main TiVo to another TV...
> 
> The Moxi guys must be thrilled at this news.


This.

Also, for all TiVo HD XL purchasers, the underlying message in all of this is: TiVo to Existing Customers, Drop Dead. That a product that is only a year and half old is now effectively obsolete is unacceptable.


----------



## b_scott

ewines said:


> This.
> 
> Also, for all TiVo HD XL purchasers, the underlying message in all of this is: TiVo to Existing Customers, Drop Dead. That a product that is only a year and half old is now effectively obsolete is unacceptable.


agreed. they are going to lose a lot of faithfuls with this, and those are their core audience now that the consumers are so fractured.


----------



## sdzc

Swing and a Miss


----------



## uw69

sdzc said:


> Swing and a Miss


Tivo really is apparently unaware how upset it's exsiting client base is/will be.


----------



## Mike-Mike

it seems like they are trying to compete with items like Roku


----------



## Wil

Mike-Mike said:


> it seems like they are trying to compete with itmes like Roku


I think they must be aiming at the 12" B&W TV owners thinking about maybe upgrading someday.


----------



## generaltso

I understand their reasons for not making the new UI available for S3 hardware. I would gladly upgrade to the new hardware if there were compelling reasons to do so. But I just can't justify the expense when the new hardware/software combo really doesn't add any functionality. If they added a tuner or made an extender box, I'd be all over it. I want to give TiVo my money for cool new products. But I can't do that if they don't give us cool new products to buy. 

I love the Moxi model of a single DVR with 3 tuners and multiple extenders for the other TVs in the house. This would get around the issue of MRV with copy protected channels and eliminate the need to pay the cable company for extra cable cards and additional outlet fees. Why can't TiVo do that? I was really hoping they would.


----------



## audioscience

I've been anxiously awaiting more news on RCN's Tivo branded box. It looks like it's going to be a Premiere box according to the Engadget blog:



> Converged cable and VoD on the TiVo box. Will be rolling out in 2nd quarter to all of RCN's markets.


That's right in line with an April-May release of the box from what I've been told by RCN reps. I'm looking forward to renting one and then I can decide how much I like it and see if it's worth a purchase.

I'd love to see some upgrade pricing from my S2 like they were offering for the TivoHD.


----------



## MickeS

Moxi can do Hulu?


----------



## bdraw

MickeS said:


> Moxi can do Hulu?


Not exactly, but Moxi can do DLNA and with PlayOn it can do Hulu.


----------



## bdraw

SnakeEyes said:


> Flash will be dead in a couple years.


People have said that about Java and yet tru2way uses it.


----------



## b_scott

and bluray


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Basically what we have is a $300 UI update.

Fun fact, Tivo spends $60 million a year -- A YEAR -- on research and development.


----------



## Airkat

fatlard said:


> To all you thinking about jumping ship, current Moxi users will welcome you with open arms.
> Live Streaming, 3 tuners, DLNA, No ads, no fees
> 
> So long Tivo


I'd never heard of Moxi until today (ironic a Tivo announcement opened my eyes), but as a BIG Tivo fan, I'm disappointed enough in this announcement to jump ship.

I saw a video where moxi had an amazon unbox menu. Can I send my purchases to moxi just like I do to my Tivo HD?

*edit* just read all your additional posts in this thread... OK we get it.. try moxi.


----------



## bkdtv

Flash and OpenGL are the two basic options available to cable and satellite providers for the creation and delivery of compelling, high-definition UIs.

Many of the the Internet-based video services are Flash-based or have Flash-based portals. From what I recall, both Youtube and Vudu offer Flash-based portals, and I believe that is what you see when you access those services on Blu-ray players and other set-top devices.



Airkat said:


> I'd never heard of Moxi until today (ironic a Tivo announcement opened my eyes), but as a BIG Tivo fan, I'm disappointed enough in this announcement to jump ship.
> 
> I saw a video where moxi had an amazon unbox menu. Can I send my purchases to moxi just like I do to my Tivo HD?


Moxi doesn't directly support any Internet services. But it does implement DLNA, which allows you to stream content from a number of services to the DVR using PC software.


----------



## Airkat

bkdtv said:


> Moxi doesn't directly support any Internet services. But it does implement DLNA, which allows you to stream content from a number of services to the DVR using PC software.


Ah ok, gotcha. Thanks. So I suppose my next hope is that Kaleidescape begins integrating this stuff.


----------



## yunlin12

bdraw said:


> Not exactly, but Moxi can do DLNA and with PlayOn it can do Hulu.


Have you used PlayOn for Hulu much lately? I tried it in 2009, using PS3 with PlayOn on my PC (quad core, 8G memory), and the experience is pretty poor, more often then not if I tried to FF or RW through a show, PlayOn gets stuck, or gets totally lost. I ended up using Hulu Desktop on my laptop hooked to my TV. DLNA + Hulu may sound nice, but the implementation leaves much to be desired.


----------



## shoeboo

Just noticed there teaser was telling us it only had two tuners this whole time. Only two red hoops...


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

fatlard said:


> 1. Moxi
> 2. Moxi
> 5. Moxi
> 
> 3 tuner Moxi with no fees for $599
> http://moxi.com/us/moxi_dvr.html


Oh cool, you don't need to buy a mate with the 3-tuner model anymore.


----------



## notting

yunlin12 said:


> I ended up using Hulu Desktop on my laptop hooked to my TV. DLNA + Hulu may sound nice, but the implementation leaves much to be desired.


Yeah, I'm not exactly thrilled about what they've done with the Premiere, but as a somewhat frequent user of Netflix on my HD, native Netflix (and others) support is far preferable to having to stream it through another (Windows!) box - it's one reason I'm not considering the Moxi yet.


----------



## fatlard

yunlin12 said:


> Have you used PlayOn for Hulu much lately? I tried it in 2009, using PS3 with PlayOn on my PC (quad core, 8G memory), and the experience is pretty poor, more often then not if I tried to FF or RW through a show, PlayOn gets stuck, or gets totally lost. I ended up using Hulu Desktop on my laptop hooked to my TV. DLNA + Hulu may sound nice, but the implementation leaves much to be desired.


Yes I tried Moxi with Playon and Hulu. I use it all the time. Pretty easy to do.


----------



## b_scott

notting said:


> Yeah, I'm not exactly thrilled about what they've done with the Premiere, but as a somewhat frequent user of Netflix on my HD, native Netflix (and others) support is far preferable to having to stream it through another (Windows!) box - it's one reason I'm not considering the Moxi yet.


Netflix is nice, but I have two 360's and a PS3 that stream NF too. So it's not an issue for me.


----------



## steve614

innocentfreak said:


> Probably worth it, but then there is also according to Zatz deals they will have for existing lifetime users. Might not be a bad deal depending on what it is if you need 2.





generaltso said:


> I would gladly upgrade to the new hardware if there were compelling reasons to do so.


I hope they do a deal for a free lifetime transfer option from ANY series 2 machine.
I know I'm setting myself up to be disappointed, but at this point, that's the only thing that would make me jump.


----------



## dswallow

audioscience said:


> Seriously, how many tuners does anyone need?


4.


----------



## b_scott

audioscience said:


> Seriously, how many tuners does anyone need?
> 
> Maybe more hobbies are what you should be looking for?


people with only one box and three shows on at once? at least three. That happens more often than you'd think. Scheduling has nothing to do with amount of TV you watch. It's possible you only watch three shows a week and all are on at the same time - then what?


----------



## innocentfreak

steve614 said:


> I hope they do a deal for a free lifetime transfer option from ANY series 2 machine.
> I know I'm setting myself up to be disappointed, but at this point, that's the only thing that would make me jump.


The deals are supposed to be non transfer deals. In essence you just get to keep what you have and they are going to offer some type of discount off service or hardware for existing users. Apparently this was very last minute so Zatz said he didn't get much info.

I believe he said he thought it may go live tomorrow with the ordering and should be on http://www.tivo.com/upgrade.


----------



## orangeboy

fatlard said:


> 1. Moxi
> 2. Moxi
> 5. Moxi
> 
> 3 tuner Moxi with no fees for $599
> http://moxi.com/us/moxi_dvr.html


Does this mean you'll be joining the Moxi forum and leaving this one?


----------



## rtmoore4

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Basically what we have is a $300 UI update.
> 
> Fun fact, Tivo spends $60 million a year -- A YEAR -- on research and development.


Thank you, Jim. That's EXACTLY it. A $300 UI update. Fantastic. I see where that $120MM went over the past two years. Makes perfect sense to me. NOT!


----------



## innocentfreak

TiVo hands on with Video at engadget - just in case people aren't reading the other threads


----------



## Virgil

JimboG said:


> Over the air HDTV tuners and the ability to tell the cable company to go to hell? Not with Moxi.
> 
> I think a $60 Avermedia Duet card and Windows 7 Media Center with no subscription fees offers a better alternative to Tivo Premiere than Moxi.


No OTA antenna input is a dealbreaker for me for Moxi. OTA HD is the best quality of any, and you have freedom from the cable and satellite companies.

It will be MythTV for me.


----------



## wesbc

So now they are selling ad space on the Tivo menu... If so they better be dropping the sub fee as I'm not paying to have ads shoved into my face. Guess I'll find out tomorrow as I'm looking for an upgrade. 

Also I'm curious how long it'll take for someone to develop the tools to upgrade the drives on these new unit.


----------



## MichaelK

magnus said:


> I like the idea of Tivo being able to record Lost for me (for example). I had a power outage for 4 days and it would have been nice to be able to download TV shows that I missed while I had no power.
> 
> So, Tivo could store certain shows on their servers for an on demand feature. And maybe each user can download x amount of shows for free and then the rest would have to be purchased elsewhere.


See a judge. do not pass go. go directly to court.

Tivo can't do anything like that without buy in from the networks AND the local affiliates. Considering Hulu actively combats any attempt to watch on a TV, dont hold your breath on that anytime soo.

Although there is a widget floating around on the engadget screen captures of a comcast video on demand icon. So if comcast has it on demand than maybe you could get it that way. (assuming that ever shows up in the real world)


----------



## MichaelK

magnus said:


> Will the new box search my other Tivos on the network to see if they have the show? I see the convergence of the other media as a good idea but what about your own network.


THAT- is a great idea. :up:


----------



## MichaelK

SnakeEyes said:


> Flash will be dead in a couple years.


the original environment tivo used on the s1 and s2/s3 probably aint been exactly "alive" in the real world. The S1- tivo can't even program anymore.


----------



## Sapphire

dswallow said:


> 4.


I have 8 across 2 media center boxes and I've had occasions where all were running.

4 might be enough but I want 6 or 8 to be comfortable. 2-4 of those can be Clear QAM so I have the big 4 at primetime covered.


----------



## Sapphire

Virgil said:


> No OTA antenna input is a dealbreaker for me for Moxi. OTA HD is the best quality of any, and you have freedom from the cable and satellite companies.
> 
> It will be MythTV for me.


OTA used to be the best but now some OTA is extremely horrible, especially ABC with their TWO HD channels plus one SD. I havent measured bitrates but I actually think my cable provider is better than OTA on some channels.


----------



## Unseen Llama

innocentfreak said:


> TiVo hands on with Video at engadget - just in case people aren't reading the other threads


Is it me, or did the menu switching still seem slow? I really hope it's just the congestion of the network in that place as everyone is playing with the new boxes.


----------



## skelm

Underwhelmed, Tivo isn't going anywhere with this after 3 years..


----------



## Ken7

Unseen Llama said:


> Is it me, or did the menu switching still seem slow? I really hope it's just the congestion of the network in that place as everyone is playing with the new boxes.


Yup, still slow. Why is it with all the video and all the screen grabs, not one shot of the guide?


----------



## b_scott

Unseen Llama said:


> Is it me, or did the menu switching still seem slow? I really hope it's just the congestion of the network in that place as everyone is playing with the new boxes.


it looked slower than my current TivoHD's. ugh :down:


----------



## innocentfreak

Ken7 said:


> Yup, still slow. Why is it with all the video and all the screen grabs, not one shot of the guide?


I think TiVo was walking them through it. No shots of the guide or the to do list to see if they changed anything there.

Maybe over the next few days some TiVo employees will post full screenshots here and answer questions. Otherwise we just have to wait until people get them in hand. I think Dave Zatz said he was expecting a review model in 2 weeks or so.


----------



## gonefishin

With the roll out of this Premiere box and basically no improvements what's next? Ok...Ok...it has a new search interface.

 I love my Tivo HD...I really do!


But what happens with my guide service if Tivo goes belly up? 


I didn't really have any worries about my Tivo machine until the roll out of the Premiere...now I'm wondering how long until they go out of business.

UGH!
dan


----------



## MickeS

Jasoco said:


> I still have an $800 TiVo Series 3 I bought in 2006 that works fine.
> 
> ---
> 
> Will Series 3's and TiVo HD's be getting this new updated UI? I'd be pretty mad if it didn't. Especially after paying $800 for this thing.





Jasoco said:


> I'd buy a new TiVo Premier, (150 hours of HD is dreamy) but my $800 S3 still works fine. There's no reason to, especially since I paid 800 freaking dollars for it!


You paid $800 for a piece of electronics 4 years ago, that today does more than it did when you bought it. You need to let that go... or stop buying electronics. Hell, my TV cost 2 grand 4 years ago and you can get better and bigger ones for $600 today. It's just how these things work, I don't expect them to come out and upgrade it.


----------



## MickeS

gonefishin said:


> With the roll out of this Premiere box and basically no improvements what's next? Ok...Ok...it has a new search interface.
> 
> I love my Tivo HD...I really do!
> 
> But what happens with my guide service if Tivo goes belly up?
> 
> I didn't really have any worries about my Tivo machine until the roll out of the Premiere...now I'm wondering how long until they go out of business.
> 
> UGH!
> dan


Don't worry, guide data won't go away no matter what.


----------



## b_scott

MickeS said:


> You paid $800 for a piece of electronics 4 years ago, that today does more than it did when you bought it. You need to let that go... or stop buying electronics. Hell, my TV cost 2 grand 4 years ago and you can get better and bigger ones for $600 today. It's just how these things work, I don't expect them to come out and upgrade it.


My Kuro cost 3 grand two years ago and it's still the best PQ out there


----------



## MickeS

Unseen Llama said:


> Is it me, or did the menu switching still seem slow? I really hope it's just the congestion of the network in that place as everyone is playing with the new boxes.


Yeah, I'm kinda shocked how slow everything seemed. It looked no better than the TiVo Search today (actually slower).


----------



## SnakeEyes

There is zero innovation here.


----------



## MickeS

SnakeEyes said:


> There is zero innovation here.


The optional remote is pretty cool though. 

I like the new UI a lot from what I've seen so far, but yeah, it's a stretch to call it innovation.


----------



## wmcbrine

It looked slow (or at least, no faster), but I'm hoping that was just because it was a new unit doing indexing in the background, like they do. We'll see.


----------



## SnakeEyes

MickeS said:


> The optional remote is pretty cool though.
> 
> I like the new UI a lot from what I've seen so far, but yeah, it's a stretch to call it innovation.


The remote is nice. I will give you that.


----------



## Johncv

steve614 said:


> I hope they do a deal for a free lifetime transfer option from ANY series 2 machine.
> I know I'm setting myself up to be disappointed, but at this point, that's the only thing that would make me jump.


Wait till Christmas after the warehouse is full then TiVo will begging you to buy one.


----------



## nrc

MickeS said:


> Yeah, I'm kinda shocked how slow everything seemed. It looked no better than the TiVo Search today (actually slower).


Basic navigation seemed faster, but it looked like pieces are still being pulled over the network and those pieces were slow. Possibly an overtaxed network at the event.


----------



## b_scott

want to know if the new UI will do season pass changes and removal in the background or if you still get the "PLEASE WAIT.."


----------



## jscozz

I anxiously checked in here tonight to see what the news was I have waited a few weeks for... and am very disappointed to read about it. I guess this is where all their development time has gone, instead of fixing GLARING, SERIOUS issues with the current S3 software that keep advertised and critical features from working at all and have existed for over a year (like parental controls).

Seems like Tivo has their own agenda and it did not include listening to what their customers want.

I think it's a shame that Tivo Marketing did not sell this as the platform of the future (if it were architected that way), with a forecast plan to enable or enhance it with the functionality that over the course of a year or two would make it the "killer" media box. It seems like that is not the plan and the hardware was not designed to support many of the features that people want and need. Oh well...


----------



## Wil

jscozz said:


> very disappointed to read about it. I guess this is where all their development time has gone, instead of fixing GLARING, SERIOUS issues with the current S3 software that keep advertised and critical features from working


I think Bill Gates (in his computer users as "Luddites" interview) said it very accurately: people won't pay for bug fixes; they want new features. The best we can hope for is that a few engineers are allowed to plug away in a back room somewhere, between budget cuts.


----------



## bkdtv

SnakeEyes said:


> There is zero innovation here.


The Premiere has a completely new 16:9 HD Flash interface with dozens of other improvements to improve usability.


----------



## carlson

Wow - not good.

Like others on this thread, I hadn't heard of Moxi until today. Looks like that's where the future lies. One question - it appears there's not a supported way to get shows off the dvr and onto a computer. Is there an unsupported way?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

bkdtv said:


> The Premiere has a completely new 16:9 HD Flash interface with dozens of other improvements to improve usability.


Is there a list somewhere detailing the dozens of improvements?


----------



## nrc

The funny thing is that if they had left people with the expectations that were formed based on the TiVo Premiere leak that this would be a cost reduced box with nothing new or worthwhile (something I always disagreed with), people would have been pleasantly surprised by this announcement. 

But by setting huge expectations with the "Inventing the DVR was just a warmup" tease they've created a big disappointment for a lot of folks. The thing is that message wasn't really intended for us. TiVo is trying to get the word out that they're not just a DVR anymore. We already knew that so it's not news to us. 

I'm a little disappointed by what has been announced, but just like TiVo has added a lot of capability to my S3 since I bought it, I expect that they'll do the same thing with this new series.


----------



## MickeS

jscozz said:


> I think it's a shame that Tivo Marketing did not sell this as the platform of the future (if it were architected that way), with a forecast plan to enable or enhance it with the functionality that over the course of a year or two would make it the "killer" media box. *It seems like that is not the plan and the hardware was not designed to support many of the features that people want and need.* Oh well...


I'll give you wifi and docsis 3.0, but judging by TiVo history, I'd say you're wrong. Few other companies have increased and updated the functionality of the installed hardware base like TiVo has, I don't expect this product to be any different in this respect.


----------



## nrc

carlson said:


> Wow - not good.
> 
> Like others on this thread, I hadn't heard of Moxi until today. Looks like that's where the future lies. One question - it appears there's not a supported way to get shows off the dvr and onto a computer. Is there an unsupported way?


You should probably go ask someone from the future.


----------



## tootal2

TiVo Wireless N and G Network Adapter support
* ENERGY STAR® certified
* 320 Gigabytes


----------



## rtmoore4

nrc said:


> But by setting huge expectations with the "Inventing the DVR was just a warmup" tease they've created a big disappointment for a lot of folks.


EXACTLY. One of the biggest Marketing screw-ups in history, IMO. The bar was set WAY too high with this advertising, I don't care who it was aimed at.


----------



## bkdtv

carlson said:


> One question - it appears there's not a supported way to get shows off the dvr and onto a computer. Is there an unsupported way?


No, there is not. That's not a feature Moxi intends to offer.


----------



## Ken7

b_scott said:


> My Kuro cost 3 grand two years ago and it's still the best PQ out there


Aint that the truth! My Kuro remains my best electronics purchase ever!


----------



## jlb

There is nothing about this box that makes me want to run out and get one. Not when my HD sits pleasantly at $6.95/mo. There is nothing that the box does that mine can't do well enough to keep me happy.

I think I know what happened here.....I think TiVoShanan was telling them that this is not a box to make the current customers go gaga and then they asked her to leave. No, I doubt it.

But it's one big ol' meh for me.

Abd to get those "existing subscriber" discounts, would I have to buy from TiVo? If so, no way in hell I buy and sacrifice my current sub rate.

I think TiVo R&D is just real slow and this box is meant to be a stop gap and platlform for future dev.

Had the box natively supported Hulu (not that they could have worked that out with the providers) or Sling functionality, I would be lining up right now.

Heck, I'll get more use from my unsubbed manual record original (to me) AT&Tivo on an emergency tuner basis than I would replacing my HD with a premiere.

Though I do like that remote. Oh well.


----------



## innocentfreak

Well the upgrade offers appear to be live. It looks like they are cheating again with their verbage.

I have 3 Tivo HDs with lifetime. My offer on each one was unit at 299 or 499 for XL and lifetime at 50% for a savings of $200 which means they aren't giving you the discount off MSD. It shows lifetime still costs 399 even though it wouldn't be my first TiVo.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Is our shorthand going to be "TP"? 

It is what it is, and I think it's a fine box if you're a new customer or have an S2 and ready to upgrade to HD. Especially if you can get the discount offer. $240 is not bad, as long as the UI isn't as sluggish as it appears in the video.

As an existing S3/HD user, it's a massive yawn. It's a cross-grade. It doesn't do anything new. It's horsepower doesn't DO anything new, it's just there as a necessity for the UI. It doesn't stream, "sling", do mobile, tune a 3rd channel, etc. As of now the unit only seems to satisfy 1 primary customer request -- an HD UI... An HD UI is merely the cost of entry in a 2010 piece of video equipment.

With current equipment turning 3-4 years old this year and getting long in the tooth, that's just unfortunate. It would have been nice if they had at least used the XL to cater to S3/HD users a little more. Two tuners doesn't cut it in this house anymore, and buying 2 units, monthly fees (or lifetimes), and cablecards is asking too much. I hoped they'd be more competitive. Oh well.


----------



## fatlard

orangeboy said:


> Does this mean you'll be joining the Moxi forum and leaving this one?


_Well, don't worry! I'm not going to do what you think I'm going to do, which is FLIP OUT! But let me just say, as I ease out of the office I helped build -- sorry, but it's a fact -- that there is such a thing as manners. A way of treating people... These fish have manners! They have manners. In fact. They're coming with me! I'm starting a new company, and the fish will come with me and... you can call me sentimental. But if anybody else wants to come with me, this moment will be the ground floor of something real and fun and inspiring and true in this godforsaken business and we will do it together! Who's coming with me besides..."Flipper" here?~
_

Who is coming with me? 

BTW.. Moxi does not have a forum yet but they are going to put out one soon..


----------



## LoREvanescence

I like the concept of the new box. And if I had cable I would consider upgrading to it when I had some spare money.

But for me, there is no reason for me to upgrade from my S3 box, it will have no benefit to me except a new UI. Where I live now, cable does not exist in the entire town. I am currently using my S3 for OTA only and have a R10 for Direct TV.

In addition, all the home media features are useless to me. With out cable there is no such thing as Cable Internet, and DSL does not exist here either. I have to use Hughes Net Satellite internet service, which limits you to 150MB per 24 hour consecutive period, and if you go over you are turned off for the next 24 hours. This makes streaming video, tivocasts, netflix and amazon unbox impossible to use. 

I hope when they announce the new direct tv tivo it will be much the same as the Premiere, that would be something I would upgrade too.


----------



## rfryar

I do not think this was metnioned .. If you have a box with lifetime you will get $200 off the lifetime with a new premier.. So lifetime for 199. A no brainer.

Too bad there was not more solid information about what is coming in the future with this same hardware.. More tuners can be done via software with the hard ware used, tru-2-way SHOULD just be a cable card change. As long as this hard ware is beefy enough it is possible for TiVo to upgrade these.

If I had some information with a roadmap on what is coming I would be tempted, not from what is currently being offered, but by the options down the road.

Rick


----------



## slowbiscuit

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Is our shorthand going to be "TP"?
> 
> It is what it is, and I think it's a fine box if you're a new customer or have an S2 and ready to upgrade to HD. Especially if you can get the discount offer. $240 is not bad, as long as the UI isn't as sluggish as it appears in the video.
> 
> As an existing S3/HD user, it's a massive yawn. It's a cross-grade. It doesn't do anything new. It's horsepower doesn't DO anything new, it's just there as a necessity for the UI. It doesn't stream, "sling", do mobile, tune a 3rd channel, etc. As of now the unit only seems to satisfy 1 primary customer request -- an HD UI... An HD UI is merely the cost of entry in a 2010 piece of video equipment.
> 
> With current equipment turning 3-4 years old this year and getting long in the tooth, that's just unfortunate. It would have been nice if they had at least used the XL to cater to S3/HD users a little more. Two tuners doesn't cut it in this house anymore, and buying 2 units, monthly fees (or lifetimes), and cablecards is asking too much. I hoped they'd be more competitive. Oh well.


+1. BigJim hit the nail on the head for me here. Will now strongly consider 7MC cablecard tuners on HTPCs w/extenders for future upgrades.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

innocentfreak said:


> I have 3 Tivo HDs with lifetime. My offer on each one was unit at 299 or 499 for XL and lifetime at 50% for a savings of $200 which means they aren't giving you the discount off MSD. It shows lifetime still costs 399 even though it wouldn't be my first TiVo.


I wondered about that but then realized I never paid 399$ for any of my lifetimes so their system may see all my lifetimes as 'MSD' already and thus no qualifying lifetime at the full 399 yet. Is that the same for you or did you pay 399 for any of your lifetimes?


----------



## Sapphire

rfryar said:


> tru-2-way SHOULD just be a cable card change.


How? You need 2 way RF capability for tru2way. TiVo doesn't have it which is why, among other things you need the tuning adapters for SDV.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

rfryar said:


> More tuners can be done via software with the hard ware used, tru-2-way SHOULD just be a cable card change. As long as this hard ware is beefy enough it is possible for TiVo to upgrade these.


more digital tuners can be done via software. I would not count on that unless very spefiically promised by TiVo which TiVo has not promised or even talked about.

tru2way would need a DocCis modem which the hardware deos not include. The cable card would likely not change at all. Now they could hang a doccis modem off the usb port and then have the needed hardware for tru2way I suppose. The Tuning adapter is actually already that docis modem so it can send the info back to cable head end to send the right SDV channel. Still I would not count on that in my buying decision either even if directly promised as it means cable company involvement. I would count this in after I read the forum threads on people using it and get a feel for how well it worked


----------



## innocentfreak

ZeoTiVo said:


> I wondered about that but then realized I never paid 399$ for any of my lifetimes so their system may see all my lifetimes as 'MSD' already and thus no qualifying lifetime at the full 399 yet. Is that the same for you or did you pay 399 for any of your lifetimes?


No but I have yet to hear of anyone getting $200 off a MSD lifetime.


----------



## MickeS

ZeoTiVo said:


> I wondered about that but then realized I never paid 399$ for any of my lifetimes so their system may see all my lifetimes as 'MSD' already and thus no qualifying lifetime at the full 399 yet. Is that the same for you or did you pay 399 for any of your lifetimes?


Well, I paid $249 for lifetime for my Series 2, and got the offer... but that was the full LT price at the time, so maybe that's not what you meant.


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## ZeoTiVo

MickeS said:


> Well, I paid $249 for lifetime for my Series 2, and got the offer... but that was the full LT price at the time, so maybe that's not what you meant.


when you say got the offer - you mean 50% off the full 399$ lifetime.

I ma looking for a case where someone did pay 399$ for a previous lifetime still on their account and what kind of 50% off offer they received.


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## Brainiac 5

MickeS said:


> Well, I paid $249 for lifetime for my Series 2, and got the offer... but that was the full LT price at the time, so maybe that's not what you meant.


What offer is that? So far it seems that everyone is getting $200 off of the full $399 price, for a final price of $199.

I think people are wondering if TiVo is giving anyone a discount that comes off of the "existing customer" price for lifetime, $299. So maybe $200 off to make it $99, or 50% off to make it $149...


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## Joe3

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Is our shorthand going to be "TP"?
> 
> It is what it is, and I think it's a fine box if you're a new customer or have an S2 and ready to upgrade to HD. Especially if you can get the discount offer. $240 is not bad, as long as the UI isn't as sluggish as it appears in the video.
> 
> As an existing S3/HD user, it's a massive yawn. It's a cross-grade. It doesn't do anything new. It's horsepower doesn't DO anything new, it's just there as a necessity for the UI. It doesn't stream, "sling", do mobile, tune a 3rd channel, etc. As of now the unit only seems to satisfy 1 primary customer request -- an HD UI... An HD UI is merely the cost of entry in a 2010 piece of video equipment.
> 
> With current equipment turning 3-4 years old this year and getting long in the tooth, that's just unfortunate. It would have been nice if they had at least used the XL to cater to S3/HD users a little more. Two tuners doesn't cut it in this house anymore, and buying 2 units, monthly fees (or lifetimes), and cablecards is asking too much. I hoped they'd be more competitive. Oh well.


As I stated in another thread:

TiVo, we have a problem, maybe!

I have been trying to get my head around this tech company's big deal announcement, but couldnt quiet put my finger on what is going on until now.

TiVo is no longer a leading edge tech company and the economic rescission we are in is covering up for what otherwise would be obvious.

Correct me if Im wrong, but the CPU capacity existed for an HD IU at the introduction of the Series 3. The capacity should have been built into the Series 3 when it came not now in the Series 4. The Series 4 is using a duel core processor that just about covers the HD IU.

Why is TiVo not building its box to the edge of todays high tech processors and technology? I believe that they have abandoned not so much their customers but their status as being cutting edge high tech for a Marketing plan that is more IBM than Apple. This is the uninspired, not turned on, disappointed hole they leave in everyone's gut when introduce their product.

Instead letting the technology set the limit of their box, they are allowing their marketing people to artificially set tech limits that they can control by holding back some of the latest tech. They blame Hollywood and their content restriction which have nothing to with the tech that always leap frogs over what Hollywood is complaining about. They blame the consumer as not being able to afford the cutting edge stuff that should be in their boxes anyway by over charging for last years tech, keeping the TiVo faithful on their marketing meat hook. So you will see todays latest tech in tomorrows Series 5 and it will again be disappointing but not enough for most to be knocked off the marketing hook. They disappoint because they are purposefully behind the tech curve in an outdated and old adoptive marketing model.

My theory is that they are always going to disappoint because they are now more a marketing company than tech. However, this may be the beginning of the end for TiVo because the high tech gap they are willing to give up for a manipulative marketing strategy makes them extremely vulnerable for a smaller high tech company to take their dominance away.

Just a thought!


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## wmcbrine

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Is our shorthand going to be "TP"?


Perhaps "Premie".


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## ZeoTiVo

Joe3 said:


> They blame Hollywood and their content restriction which have nothing to with the tech that always leap frogs over what Hollywood is complaining about.


 what does this even mean???



> They blame the consumer as not being able to afford the cutting edge stuff that should be in their boxes anyway by over charging for last years tech, keeping the TiVo faithful on their marketing meat hook.


 what does this mean again?? Still if people do not buy 800$ DVRs they do not buy them - there is no blame, there also is no business model. Point me to the 800$ DVR that is selling well. Have you heard of Moxi and its current sales issues?



> because they are now more a marketing company than tech.


man, I laughed really hard at this. TiVo throws up a tagline that way overhypes expectations for what could have been a really sucessful anouncement of an exceptional HD UI and you say TiVo is a marketing company?


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## MediaLivingRoom

It's really TiVo Series 3.1 with Search out of beta.


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## solutionsetc

Joe3 said:


> TiVo, we have a problem, maybe!


I think your entire post was pretty well said. I have listened to countless rebuttal by the TiVo defender crowd as to why we don't have this and why we haven't yet got that with the status quo of their arguments that TiVo is working on something big for the next series.

Instead what we get is a flashy wrapper on top of a stale feature set, with not a single usability issue, that many have been asking for for years, addressed.

I wonder how many man hours it took to script the new interface in Flash? This is what we've been waiting years for!

Rest in Peace, TiVo.


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## solutionsetc

wmcbrine said:


> Perhaps "Premie".


Very cute, and surprisingly poignant.


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## MickeS

ZeoTiVo said:


> when you say got the offer - you mean 50% off the full 399$ lifetime.
> 
> I ma looking for a case where someone did pay 399$ for a previous lifetime still on their account and what kind of 50% off offer they received.


Yes, I get 50% off of LT on a Premiere when I select to show the offers based on my LT Series 2.

Not sure if that answers any question though.


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## ZeoTiVo

solutionsetc said:


> with not a single usability issue, that many have been asking for for years, addressed.


there you go with many again. Is it not time for you to dicth TiVo then and move on to whatever company is making a better DVR for you?


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## audioscience

Yeah, I don't think I have any usability issues with Tivo.


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## Joe3

ZeoTiVo said:


> there you go with many again. Is it not time for you to dicth TiVo then and move on to whatever company is making a better DVR for you?


Because today TiVo shows the world its just about marketing and has left the tech behind that company you allude to may be right around the corner for many people!

Don't you get it? TiVo just jumped the "Tech Shark"


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## Brainiac 5

MickeS said:


> Yes, I get 50% off of LT on a Premiere when I select to show the offers based on my LT Series 2.


I think the question really is, does it offer you 50% off of $399, or 50% off of $299?


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## aindik

Brainiac 5 said:


> I think the question really is, does it offer you 50% off of $399, or 50% off of $299?


50% off $399 (minus 50 cents). When I logged in to check my upgrade offer, the offer was lifetime for $199.


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## solutionsetc

ZeoTiVo said:


> there you go with many again. Is it not time for you to dicth TiVo then and move on to whatever company is making a better DVR for you?


Probably. But I have a contract to wait out.

So how's that "TiVo innovation" you speak so frequently of working for you? All those inferences in your 20,000 plus posts about what we were gonna see in series 4.

I have to say I find it pretty amusing. Kind of like your ship finally came in only to find its cargo bay empty. (c;


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## aus1ander

innocentfreak said:


> No but I have yet to hear of anyone getting $200 off a MSD lifetime.


I paid $299 for an MSD discount on my TiVoHD and got (and purchased) lifetime on a new Premiere for $200 off.


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## aindik

aus1ander said:


> I paid $299 for an MSD discount on my TiVoHD and got (and purchased) lifetime on a new Premiere for $200 off.


Was your lifetime $199 or $99?


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## dswallow

Well, it might be slightly tempting to dump the Series 2DT I bought back when I was making the Amazon Unbox HME app, which goes out of contract on 4/10 this year, and take advantage of the $239.99 offer on a Premiere HD.

So that leaves me with just the should-I-just-get-Product-Lifetime-for-$200 and be done with it? Probably... hmmm...

It just kinda grates me wrong to not buy the HD XL since everything else I have is THX. And I'd probably want the 1TB drive in there anyway. Ahh, this whole thing would be SIGNIFICANTLY easier if I could just go pick one up in person right now someplace. Impulse buys, and all that.


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## aindik

dswallow said:


> Well, it might be slightly tempting to dump the Series 2DT I bought back when I was making the Amazon Unbox HME app, which goes out of contract on 4/10 this year, and take advantage of the $239.99 offer on a Premiere HD.
> 
> So that leaves me with just the should-I-just-get-Product-Lifetime-for-$200 and be done with it? Probably... hmmm...


Product lifetime at $199 or one year at $99? That's a no-brainer.


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## morac

aindik said:


> Was your lifetime $199 or $99?


No one's lifetime upgrade offer is going to be $99.

My S3 got it's lifetime from a transfer from my S2 back when that offer was offered. For a while I then used the S3 to get a MSD on my S2 until I canceled my S2's subscription. I checked the TiVo web site a number of times recently (prior to today) and was offered the ability to buy lifetime service for $299. So I could still get a MSD using my S3.

Logging in today, I'm offered a premiere with lifetime for $199. So the MSD does not apply in the upgrade offer. Basically the offer is giving me $100 off what I'd normally pay. The 50% off offer is off the full price, not the MSD price.


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## jscozz

Well.. if the 50&#37; of llifetime for a new S4 is true, that will piss me off a bit... just added 2 HDs before Christmas and paid lifetime on both... so, I just wasted a few hundred dollars and got old hardware already... there should at least be a free lifetime transfer to S4 for anyone who just bought it in the last few months...


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## lvthunder

jscozz said:


> Well.. if the 50% of llifetime for a new S4 is true, that will piss me off a bit... just added 2 HDs before Christmas and paid lifetime on both... so, I just wasted a few hundred dollars and got old hardware already... there should at least be a free lifetime transfer to S4 for anyone who just bought it in the last few months...


Do you think you wasted money when a few months after you buy a car a new model comes out? This is technology here. It all gets replaced in short order. Just sit back and enjoy your 2 HD's and worry about the new stuff when you are ready to replace them. No one says that now that the new one is out the people who don't immediately upgrade are losers or anything.


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## Ziggy86

lvthunder said:


> Do you think you wasted money when a few months after you buy a car a new model comes out? This is technology here. It all gets replaced in short order. Just sit back and enjoy your 2 HD's and worry about the new stuff when you are ready to replace them. No one says that now that the new one is out the people who don't immediately upgrade are losers or anything.


Well with a new car you know they will be having a new model come out the next year, with Tivo they never tell you in advance.


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## lvthunder

Ziggy86 said:


> Well with a new car you know they will be having a new model come out the next year, with Tivo they never tell you in advance.


If you thought the S3 was the end of the line hardware wise I don't know what to tell you. TiVo gave what a 3 week notice something new was coming. How much time should they give?


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## rfryar

jscozz said:


> Well.. if the 50% of llifetime for a new S4 is true, that will piss me off a bit... just added 2 HDs before Christmas and paid lifetime on both... so, I just wasted a few hundred dollars and got old hardware already... there should at least be a free lifetime transfer to S4 for anyone who just bought it in the last few months...


I would just try calling a few of their call center agents and speak to them. I know that in some cases they have moved lifetime licenses for free or for a cheap one time fee in extreme cases similar to this. You have nothing to lose to call them and complain.

Rick


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## b_scott

jscozz said:


> Well.. if the 50% of llifetime for a new S4 is true, that will piss me off a bit... just added 2 HDs before Christmas and paid lifetime on both... so, I just wasted a few hundred dollars and got old hardware already... there should at least be a free lifetime transfer to S4 for anyone who just bought it in the last few months...


you know they delayed this just a bit to get all the old hardware sold for Xmas. :sigh:


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## AbMagFab

b_scott said:


> you know they delayed this just a bit to get all the old hardware sold for Xmas. :sigh:


It's more about the 30-day returns out of the way.


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## MichaelK

b_scott said:


> you know they delayed this just a bit to get all the old hardware sold for Xmas. :sigh:


yeah it has nothing to do with the fact that the new box isn't ready or anything...

They had a giant annonucment and can't do anything but take pre-orders.


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## nrc

MichaelK said:


> yeah it has nothing to do with the fact that the new box isn't ready or anything...
> 
> They had a giant annonucment and can't do anything but take pre-orders.


Yeah! Stupid Apple. Oh wait. Wrong forum.


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## MichaelK

nrc said:


> Yeah! Stupid Apple. Oh wait. Wrong forum.


The premier has no compelling updates!

TiVo sucks that they wont upgrade my S3 with this great new software!

I want a Pony!


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## aus1ander

aindik said:


> Was your lifetime $199 or $99?


sorry, i realized my post was vague. i bought an MSD discounted lifetime subscription from my TiVo HD last year and i was eligible for the discounted lifetime on Premiere.


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## SnakeEyes

MichaelK said:


> The premier has no compelling updates!
> 
> TiVo sucks that they wont upgrade my S3 with this great new software!
> 
> I want a Pony!


You missed your chance for a Pony.


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## MediaLivingRoom

Where is TiVoPony?


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## innocentfreak

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Where is TiVoPony?


Where is any TiVo employee for that matter? I think we have only seen the guy from the TiVocast department lately.


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## lvthunder

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Where is TiVoPony?


According to his profile he was on the forums yesterday at 10:00.


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## MichaelK

innocentfreak said:


> Where is any TiVo employee for that matter? I think we have only seen the guy from the TiVocast department lately.


judging by the general reaction to the premiere- i wouldn't post here either if i worked at the tivo mothership.

TivoStephen (sp?) posted a couple quickies that i saw the night of the event and wasn't exactly given a warm and fuzzy set of replies.


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## innocentfreak

I can understand that, but it would be nice if there was some type of interaction here like they used to. Instead it feels more like they kind of wish we would all just go away.

To me it is sort of saying something when we had to go to other sources to get the news instead of a TiVo employee posting the news here as the embargo was lifted.

Then again I guess I am just getting more spoiled by companies that interact with their customers.


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## MichaelK

I think we just got to big for them to deal with. There's millions of tivo users / former users/ potential users now with 200k+ memebers here. 

when things were a little smaller - they would post and maybe 5 people would abuse them and 10 would have a pleasant converstation. Now they post and 46 people slam them non-stop. (made up numbers of course- but i'm sure you get the gist)

So they spend their time elsewhere. Figuring that the info they pass along to Dave Zatz will be good enough for us. 

I also have a Vera home automation controller- similar to tivo in a company trying to make a cheaper priced consumer electronic device that does what computers do based on lean hardware running linux. They interact a lot more on their forums. But my serial number is under 10,000. So There's a lot less people on giving them the business.

I do miss the days when Tivo interacted with us more for sure. Sadly I just think it's a little too far along to get much "fun" interaction anymore.


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## orangeboy

innocentfreak said:


> Where is any TiVo employee for that matter? I think we have only seen the guy from the TiVocast department lately.


If they released mockups, and didn't show Grid Guide/TiVo Guide at the announcement on 3/2, my guess would be they're still working on the UI, and are still bound by NDAs, and really wouldn't be able to share much anyway. Even if not under NDA, I don't think it's encouraged by TiVo to share too much anyway. So why show up to a forum just to get beat up?


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## innocentfreak

I am not asking for them to share anything except what they released to the invites that isn't under embargo assuming there might still be.

Look at the effort bkdtv has put together as usual with his prerelease FAQ. As much as I am thankful to him for doing it, part of me feels this should have been something TiVo posted at 7:00 PM the night of the announcement. It could have even been closed so you couldn't reply, and they would just update it as they release more info over the next month.


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## MichaelK

innocentfreak said:


> I am not asking for them to share anything except what they released to the invites that isn't under embargo assuming there might still be.
> 
> Look at the effort bkdtv has put together as usual with his prerelease FAQ. As much as I am thankful to him for doing it, part of me feels this should have been something TiVo posted at 7:00 PM the night of the announcement. It could have even been closed so you couldn't reply, and they would just update it as they release more info over the next month.


good point- they could at least drop locked posts .

they could have just copied the FAQ from their website and stuck it up here.


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## dswallow

MichaelK said:


> good point- they could at least drop locked posts .
> 
> they could have just copied the FAQ from their website and stuck it up here.


Frankly I prefer a FAQ with real technical info and comparisons, not marketing. That doesn't mean TiVo couldn't feed somebody that real technical info and let them manage it, but I think they would likely shy away from providing it in any official manner.


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## innocentfreak

dswallow said:


> Frankly I prefer a FAQ with real technical info and comparisons, not marketing. That doesn't mean TiVo couldn't feed somebody that real technical info and let them manage it, but I think they would likely shy away from providing it in any official manner.


And maybe this is how they do it now. For all we know bkdtv gets some of his info straight from Tivo or TiVo insiders.

I just think it would be nice if TiVo still had an official presence on the board. I have so gotten used to other forums that I come here sometimes and look for the devtracker option to see if anything official has been posted until I remember we don't have one. Then again I guess technically we aren't official.


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## DCIFRTHS

innocentfreak said:


> And maybe this is how they do it now. For all we know bkdtv gets some of his info straight from Tivo or TiVo insiders.


He has always been a great source of technical information. I always thought he worked at / for Broadcom


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