# The Flash - OAD 5/19/15 - "Fast Enough"



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I enjoyed this episode for the most part. It was a pretty good "finale" to the end of the season or as good as one that is a cliffhanger can be.

Wells plan to get his future back, by having Barry save his mom was interesting, though if Barry had saved his mom, then the timeline would have changed and Wells wouldn't be at the wormhole, if that even existed.

I didn't expect Eddy to shoot himself though that's probably because up until now I had assumed Eobard was on some distant branch of the Thong family tree, not a direct descendant based on what Wells said.

There was one thing that bugged me though. Basically Barry decides to put the Earth in danger to go back and save his mom. Not the best idea, but somewhat understandable. Instead though he puts the Earth in danger to go back and say goodbye. That makes no sense at all. The only thing that could possibly make sense there is that he changed his mind at the last second.

The other thing in this episode, was somethings that were actually discussed in the episode one thread based on the comics which ended up being spoilers after all. 


Spoiler



One of Barry's visions appears to be Kaitlin as Killer Frost and Wells talks about Cisco's future.


Both of these were mentioned by posters in the first or second episode thread., which lessened the impact slightly.

Oh and I don't care how fast one is, you can't reverse a black hole. A black hole is nothing like a tornado. Hopefully this isn't resolved by Barry simply running fast in circles.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Time travel stuff is always problematic, and most of what we got here was pretty silly. Nonetheless, this episode was a lot of fun. A good mix of genuinely thrilling moments, emotion (with Barry's mom; I continue not to care about him and Iris), and humor. I decided not to think about it too hard, and had a lot of fun watching it. Good way to wrap up the first season.



morac said:


> There was one thing that bugged me though. Basically Barry decides to put the Earth in danger to go back and save his mom. Not the best idea, but somewhat understandable. Instead though he puts the Earth in danger to go back and say goodbye. That makes no sense at all. The only thing that could possibly make sense there is that he changed his mind at the last second.


As Barry was watching through the doorway, waiting for his future self to take his younger past self and leave, his future self saw him, held up his hand in a "stop" gesture, and shook his head.

You are right that there's no way he should have attempted to go back given the expressed downsides. And what if he saved his mom and she got hit by a bus the next day? I wished someone had pointed out that there were no guarantees he'd end up with what he wanted. But as I said, I just committed to not thinking about it all too hard, and went with it.

The one thing that got through my block was Eddie's body being sucked into the singularity. This seems like an obvious ploy for more Thawne stories later, including possibly the return of Eobard. Which wouldn't bug me except that Barry has, in almost every episode this season, carried someone to safety from something. Now all of a sudden he has to leave Eddie's body behind? Obvious plot mechanics annoy me.


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## caslu (Jun 24, 2003)

Holy smoke!!!! Now that's what I call a season ending cliffhanger. 

Too many things I loved to mention but I almost lost it when that Golden Age helmet came flying out of the wormhole.

So, if Eobard is written out of existence by Eddie's sacrifice... doesn't that negate the entire series to date?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

cmontyburns said:


> As Barry was watching through the doorway, waiting for his future self to take his younger past self and leave, his future self saw him, held up his hand in a "stop" gesture, and shook his head.


I figured his future self was telling him not to come in yet. I didn't get the vibe that he was saying not to save his mom. Though really the scene didn't make a lot of sense since you think the "future" Flash would be at least a little surprised to see the "present" one.

Also I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure someone whose been stabbed through the heart can't have a several minute conversation. She'd have been unconscious in seconds.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

caslu said:


> So, if Eobard is written out of existence by Eddie's sacrifice... doesn't that negate the entire series to date?


Apparently not. Timey wimey. Also Eddie got sucked into the singularity, so it wouldn't surprise me if both him and Wells end up alive next season somehow.

I wonder why Eobard reverted back to his old self when being erased. It was a neat effect, but I'm not sure what the point was.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

morac said:


> I wonder why Eobard reverted back to his old self when being erased. It was a neat effect, but I'm not sure what the point was.


The point probably was that they only had Tom Cavanaugh under contract for this season.


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## rahnbo (Sep 12, 2010)

Personally I'm not going to worry about all the timeline issues as it is a pretty good show. Some answers and possible spoilers for next season from Andrew Kreisberg are here:

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/19/flash-season-1-finale-eddie-death-rick-cosnett-spoilers


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

I'm turning my 7 year old daughter into a comic book geek now too. She just learned what a season ending cliffhanger is though and she's not too happy about it.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

All in all, I think this was probably the weakest/worst episode of the season, and a dramatically stupid cliffhanger.

Oh well.

Maybe in his next life Eddie might realize he could accomplish what was needed by shooting off his balls. Of course, there was a benefit of killing himself -- no more Iris.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

rahnbo said:


> Personally I'm not going to worry about all the timeline issues as it is a pretty good show. Some answers and possible spoilers for next season from Andrew Kreisberg are here:
> 
> http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/19/flash-season-1-finale-eddie-death-rick-cosnett-spoilers


Not possible season 2 spoilers in there, some definite ones.

One thing in the article (I don't believe it's a spoiler because it was revealed this season but if someone does think it is let me know and I will tag it) was they knew that Eddie having the last name Thawne would cause many in the audience early on to think that he was the Reverse Flash. They did that purposefully to mess with the expectation of comic book fans. 
Messing with those type of expectations is something that I expect them to continue to do.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Another thing that the article confirms which I have more and more come to suspect is that they really don't think very much about what they're doing...


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

I loved it and I hate it!

I loved the action and drama and suspense. I hate that it's time travel and doesn't make sense. I especially hate cliff-hangers. I believe a season should be wrapped up and the most you should do is give a slight intro into what next season will hold. But I hate this whole thing of leaving in the middle of a black hole above the city.

Some nice things I liked was the helmet dropping through the wormhole (where Joe said "What the hell is that?"). All comic book Flash fans probably fist-pumped in delight right then.

I still don't understand how Wells/Thawne felt he could be redeemed by Barry saving his mom. And it's a mystery why future Barry decided that his mom shouldn't be saved.

Anyone notice that future Barry's costume was different?

So.... Cisco was affected by the explosion after all. That explains why he remembered the original timeline.

So Eddie is gone now? That doesn't make sense. If Eddie kills himself, then there's no Eobard going back in time to kill Barry's mom and the whole timeline should have effectively changed. That's what I hate about time travel stories. Harry Potter did it much better.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

bobcarn said:


> So Eddie is gone now? That doesn't make sense. If Eddie kills himself, then there's no Eobard going back in time to kill Barry's mom and the whole timeline should have effectively changed. That's what I hate about time travel stories. Harry Potter did it much better.


I love time travel stories, but they have to accept their own premises (whatever those may be). And here, they didn't...they established that the consequence of Eddie killing himself is that Eobard never existed, but they then had Eobard continue to have existed (because nothing he did was undone).

For a while, I thought that they were just going to close the loop...that our Barry IS Future Barry, and that everything would unfold exactly as it always did. But that thought never seems to have occurred either to the (allegedly smart) people on the show or to the writers.

It's like I said before...they just don't seem to think about things. Which isn't unusual in Hollywood, but I personally hold science fiction to a higher standard, because ideas are so important to it; and I hold stories about smart people to a higher standard, because, well, they ought to be smart.

I still like this show, but right around now I'm wondering if I ought to.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

This has got to be the worst written episode yet, and with this show, that is really saying something.

Rather than listing the numerous stupid things that happened this episode (a few have already been mentioned), I will just note the one that I think was the worst (from the perspective of how badly run this show is).

Barry used up more than 3 minutes from the time of the collision to the time they shut down the wormhole. If the writers are just going to make up a 1 minute 52 seconds number, why not make up a number that fits the time of what actually happened? Are the writers and directors really so bad at estimating the actual time a scripted scene is going to run?

I have to mention one more thing. Just last episode Joe was telling Barry how stupid he was for trusting Snart. And now Joe essentially tells Barry to trust Wells/Thawne, on a much bigger risk? WTF? Do the writers pay any attention at all to character development and consistency? (rhetorical question)


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## bryhamm (Jun 30, 2004)

There was an episode tonight?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

bobcarn said:


> I still don't understand how Wells/Thawne felt he could be redeemed by Barry saving his mom. And it's a mystery why future Barry decided that his mom shouldn't be saved.


I don't think Wells was trying to be redeemed at all. All he's wanted to do since getting stuck is return to "his time". In his time, Barry's mom didn't die (if you believe his story), so basically he was trying to reset time back to before he went back in time. When he made his plans, I assume that he assumed that Barry would save his mom, resetting the timeline. That's why he was shocked/angry that Barry didn't save his mom.

As for future Barry, no clue there. They never really did explain why Thawn was fighting Flash in 2024 to begin with when Thawn is from much farther in the future. I know the comics probably explain that, but the show didn't bother to do so.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

bobcarn said:


> Some nice things I liked was the helmet dropping through the wormhole (where Joe said "What the hell is that?"). All comic book Flash fans probably fist-pumped in delight right then.


I had to pause the show. Then I spent several minutes wondering how I was going to talk about it here, then I gave up and went back to watching the show.



> I still don't understand how Wells/Thawne felt he could be redeemed by Barry saving his mom.


He wasn't trying to be redeemed. He was trying to get home. To a home that no longer existed because the timeline was fractured. Barry fixing it would allow him to return to his actual timeline, not an alternate one.



> And it's a mystery why future Barry decided that his mom shouldn't be saved.


Not couldn't. Shouldn't. There's a difference.



> Anyone notice that future Barry's costume was different?


Yes, same as in the newspaper from the future.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Okay, Barry wants to go back in time. Thawne tells him how. But then he tells him his conditions: He wants Cisco et al to put together a TIME MACHINE so he can return to the future.

Why didn't Barry just use the TIME MACHINE to go back instead of creating a Earth eating black hole? Did the time machine rely on the black hole as well?

As to the other big question: Why didn't the timeline change when Detective Thawne shot himself and Eobard Thawne disappeared?

I have a theory: It did. Eddie shoots himself, then the other Eobard disappears. BUT, since there is no Reverse Flash, He didn't come back to kill Flash's mom who is still alive. And the ORIGINAL Wells is still alive as well, who proceeded to build the reactor, and inadvertently create all the meta-humans. Eddie Thawne is still alive to sire the Thawne bloodline, since he didn't have to shoot himself in this new timeline. Leaving the door open for Eobard to come back at some point to try to kill Barry as a kid. And again kill Flash's mom, and recreate the timeline we've all been witnessing. BOOM! Time loop. Actually dual-timeline time loop

Why didn't the group get reset as well? Cisco's emerging powers (whatever they are) made them retain memory of the previous timeline.

The only problem with this is that the sigularity shouldn't be in this timeline, unless by it's very nature, allowing travel between timelines, means that it's in every timeline.

But I guess we'll find out what the excuse is next season.

Basically I loved the season finale. I wanted them to go bold and do a total reset of the series to be radically different. But, obviously they had to play it as safely as possible.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

caslu said:


> So, if Eobard is written out of existence by Eddie's sacrifice... doesn't that negate the entire series to date?


That was my first thought as well. If Eobard doesn't exist, Nora Allen doesn't die, Henry doesn't go to jail, and the particle accelerator accident doesn't happen.

This may be an instance where you have just shrug your shoulders and go with the flow.



bobcarn said:


> I loved it and I hate it!
> 
> Some nice things I liked was the helmet dropping through the wormhole (where Joe said "What the hell is that?"). All comic book Flash fans probably fist-pumped in delight right then.


I had to pause because I started laughing.



bobcarn said:


> I still don't understand how Wells/Thawne felt he could be redeemed by Barry saving his mom. And it's a mystery why future Barry decided that his mom shouldn't be saved.


I'm guessing Future Barry had a reason.
I hope that the writers know what it is and decide to share it with use.



bobcarn said:


> Anyone notice that future Barry's costume was different?


I actually paused the fight in the beginning of the episode and went back because I thought that was the case. I noticed that the chest insignia background was white.



bobcarn said:


> So.... Cisco was affected by the explosion after all. That explains why he remembered the original timeline.


Uh huh. He can see vibrations.

Geez, Eddie. Don't you think it would have been less painful to get a vasectomy?

So this is an altered timeline, something I suspected all along.

Interesting line Eobard made about finally learning Barry's name.

And mentioning Rip Hunter.

One thing I did like was Barry has acknowledged that Joe was a second father to him.
Those scenes with Jesse Martin are always good.

Grant Gustin posted this nice thank you on Facebook today.

I was amused that the first person that Facebook showed me who liked it was Robbie Amell.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Peter000 said:


> Why didn't Barry just use the TIME MACHINE to go back instead of creating a Earth eating black hole? Did the time machine rely on the black hole as well?


They made a point of saying that Eobard/Wells' speed was still unreliable so I'm extrapolating that Eobard needed it to ensure he got back while Barry didn't need it.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Ereth said:


> I had to pause the show. Then I spent several minutes wondering how I was going to talk about it here, then I gave up and went back to watching the show.


Yeah. We know _who_ it's from, but no clue at all as to why or how. It's a teaser for sure, but how it'll play out is anyone's guess. I wondered how to bring that up, but couldn't think of anything worthwhile to say.



> He wasn't trying to be redeemed. He was trying to get home. To a home that no longer existed because the timeline was fractured. Barry fixing it would allow him to return to his actual timeline, not an alternate one.


That was his ultimate goal, but he also was clear that Barry could undo the "evil" he did. He hates Barry, but also over time, in a way, learned to like him too (and Cisco and Caitlin).


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

One thing to keep in mind is that according to Eobard, the Flash normally would have gotten his powers anyway. He implied that after killing Nora, the timeline was changed and Barry didn't get his powers, forcing him to recreate the accident that does that.

I do find it a huge stretch that a one in a quadrillion gazillion accident can be "recreated".


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## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

I _loved_ that finale. Lots of comic book fun and drama. Time paradoxes are annoying but whatchagonnado?

I laughed out loud when the helmet popped out. Best part was Eobard's reaction. "That means it's time for me to go." Love it!


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## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

I have to say, I was hoping we'd get a complete reset on the show. Have Barry save his mom, then Barry returns to the future and, just like in Back To The Future, runs into completely different versions on the same characters.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

bobcarn said:


> I do find it a huge stretch that a one in a quadrillion gazillion accident can be "recreated".


And yet,


Spoiler



it did for Wally West


.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

bobcarn said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that according to Eobard, the Flash normally would have gotten his powers anyway. He implied that after killing Nora, the timeline was changed and Barry didn't get his powers, forcing him to recreate the accident that does that.
> 
> I do find it a huge stretch that a one in a quadrillion gazillion accident can be "recreated".


Actually I think he just moved the time line up so that he could get home sooner.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Time travel did/does/will give me a headache! I've got very mixed feelings about this ep, and I still hate season-cliffhangers.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I enjoyed it a lot.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Here's my guess:

Barry was always going to become The Flash. Eobard just made it happened earlier, by taking over Harrison Well's body. Now that Eobard no longer exists, maybe the real Harrison Wells can reproduce everything that Eobard did, at the same pace, with the help of some other Time Traveler (Rick Hunter?)?

Is Tom Cavanaugh coming back next season?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

dtle said:


> Here's my guess:
> 
> Barry was always going to become The Flash. Eobard just made it happened earlier, by taking over Harrison Well's body. Now that Eobard no longer exists, maybe the real Harrison Wells can reproduce everything that Eobard did, at the same pace, with the help of some other Time Traveler (Rick Hunter?)?
> 
> Is Tom Cavanaugh coming back next season?


Yes, Tom Cavanaugh is returning, but as you point out, he could technically return as Wells, not Eobard. We shall see.

Also we have the other Eobard actor that they can use as well.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Did I hear wrong or did they say Barry had to go "at least Mach 2"? Um, that's not that fast...


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> Did I hear wrong or did they say Barry had to go "at least Mach 2"? Um, that's not that fast...


That's what they said, but he broke that like almost instantly and kept accelerating. They never mentioned how fast he eventually was going, but they knew the time was right when the coffee started levitating.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

The entire thing with him colliding with a particle in the accelerator really had me shaking my head - but it was a fun episode overall, I just find I need to turn my brain off when watching it now, the "science fiction" parts are so bad I almost think they are trying to be stupid when having the characters talk about it.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> Yes, Tom Cavanaugh is returning, but as you point out, he could technically return as Wells, not Eobard. We shall see.
> 
> Also we have the other Eobard actor that they can use as well.


Yes, they could technically do something where the timeline is reset and everyone works for Wells, who is just a regular scientist.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

JYoung said:


> And yet,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Yeah, which was always a stretch even back then when we were fast and loose with the "science".


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

When it comes to the part where Future Barry motioned for Present Barry to _not_ do anything, I wonder (comic book info here)....


Spoiler



if it's in some way because of Flashpoint? There, he had gone back in time to save his mom, messed everything up, then went back again to stop himself.



I'm not going to keep comic book talk out of the thread. It feels too unnatural to move out of the conversation to separate threads since the comics are the inspiration and/or source for the show, but I'll try tagging those things more clearly if it looks like there may be a chance it'll be a plot point, and we'll see how that works.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Was anyone else annoyed that they had to rush to shut down the wormhole? They knew they were going to have to shut it down at the beginning, why wouldn't they have been ready to do that? Why the mad rush in the final seconds?


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## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

Not to get all teknikul, but if the hydrogen atom with its tiny bit of mass, traveling at near C hits Barry, isn't it going to punch through him like $#it through a goose?

I guess they've established the Flash's top speed is about Mach 2, (1522 mph at sea level). His trails in overhead shots make it look much faster.

BTW, Cisco, here's some wire, sketches from Eobard, a toaster, a couple of D batteries and an old flux capacitor we had lying around. Go build a time machine.

They're gonna need more help in the fall. There is no way that the Flash's 160 pound-dripping-wet weight is a match for the mass of a forming black hole, I don't care how fast he runs. 

Doc Snow doesn't know what a singularity is? Don't most fourth graders know that?


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## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

bobcarn said:


> I'm not going to keep comic book talk out of the thread. It feels too unnatural to move out of the conversation to separate threads since the comics are the inspiration and/or source for the show, but I'll try tagging those things more clearly if it looks like there may be a chance it'll be a plot point, and we'll see how that works.


I was thinking a "Perpetual Comics Background for The Flash (TV Series)" thread might work.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

It's very important not to think too hard about the black hole.

Even if you don't know enough physics to realize that Barry would be torn apart by tidal forces as he approached it, you should wonder "What the heck is he running on?" and also "how does running fast alter gravity?".

Informed speculation about a character we saw briefly but who was not named in the finale:


Spoiler



Nice brief glance at a girl with "past life issues" in the singularity sequence. I don't know if she's Thanagarian in this incarnation or not, but maybe she is, and maybe Thanagarian science knows something about shutting down wormholes?


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

how come they havent hooked up that wheelchair "battery" to Barry and see what it does to him?


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

pmyers said:


> how come they havent hooked up that wheelchair "battery" to Barry and see what it does to him?


Wrong polarity


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> Wrong polarity


Just reverse it!

(Although Star Trek techno-babble is probably too rigorously scientific for The Flash... )


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Just reverse it!
> 
> (Although Star Trek techno-babble is probably too rigorously scientific for The Flash... )


:up:


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

One thing about reverse flash, if he has "limited" access to the speed force, why does he seem to waste his speed force by vibrating himself when he is RF, especially since everyone already knows who he is!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Habit?


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

vertigo235 said:


> One thing about reverse flash, if he has "limited" access to the speed force, why does he seem to waste his speed force by vibrating himself when he is RF, especially since everyone already knows who he is!


He drank too much coffee at CC Jitters?


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

SeanC said:


> Was anyone else annoyed that they had to rush to shut down the wormhole? They knew they were going to have to shut it down at the beginning, why wouldn't they have been ready to do that? Why the mad rush in the final seconds?


I thought they did shut it down as expected, but it reappeared. That's when Snow and Ronnie started yanking at access panels trying to cut the power.


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## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

pmyers said:


> how come they havent hooked up that wheelchair "battery" to Barry and see what it does to him?


When the "battery" was revealed I expected them to discover that Wells/Thawne had been harvesting Barry's speed energy via the treadmill, then storing and recharging from it.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Ereth said:


> you should wonder "What the heck is he running on?"


They showed him jumping from debris to debris. Not that this resolves the larger issues at play!


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

scooterboy said:


> I thought they did shut it down as expected, but it reappeared. That's when Snow and Ronnie started yanking at access panels trying to cut the power.


Oh, that would definitely explain that.


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## thewebgal (Aug 10, 2007)

Drewster said:


> I have to say, I was hoping we'd get a complete reset on the show. Have Barry save his mom, then Barry returns to the future and, just like in Back To The Future, runs into completely different versions on the same characters.


They did that on the show Witchblade and it didn't play well - 
the 2nd season was kind of a replay of the first season ...


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I usually prefer the "what happened always happened" time travel stories, where you can't really change it and it will always turn out the same way, but they have already kind of disproved that when Barry altered the past earlier this season.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Drewster said:


> I was thinking a "Perpetual Comics Background for The Flash (TV Series)" thread might work.


I thought about it, but sometimes something comes up in a show, and then likewise in that thread.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> I usually prefer the "what happened always happened" time travel stories, where you can't really change it and it will always turn out the same way, but they have already kind of disproved that when Barry altered the past earlier this season.


I read a book once that was based on time travel. They had a novel approach to it. A tour company made jumps into the past, bringing along tourists with them so those people could witness historic events, and one woman who wanted to disappear into the past slipped away from them, removing the monitoring the device. The catch though was that the past can't be changed. Minor changes get ironed out in the time stream, and history flows along the same as it always did. But the longer someone stays in the past, the harder it is for them to _not_ change history, and the better the chance something will happen to them. Stay long enough and you'll have a heart attack or get hit by lightning or killed by a stray bullet from a mugger. Something _will_ happen to you because it's impossible for you to stay in that time too long. The tour guide had to go back and try to find her before she died, or before he did. It was one of the few time travel stories I got a kick out of because it had an interesting twist based on the "time cannot be changed" premise.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Grant Gustin did an interview with TV Guide and spoiled something that they will be doing going forward. I don't have much faith that they are going to do it well but we'll see. 
Putting the link in spoiler tags as the url contains the spoiler



Spoiler



http://www.tvguide.com/news/mega-buzz-the-flash-multiple-universes/


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## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

bobcarn said:


> I read a book once that was based on time travel. They had a novel approach to it. A tour company made jumps into the past, bringing along tourists with them so those people could witness historic events, and one woman who wanted to disappear into the past slipped away from them, removing the monitoring the device. The catch though was that the past can't be changed. Minor changes get ironed out in the time stream, and history flows along the same as it always did. But the longer someone stays in the past, the harder it is for them to _not_ change history, and the better the chance something will happen to them. Stay long enough and you'll have a heart attack or get hit by lightning or killed by a stray bullet from a mugger. Something _will_ happen to you because it's impossible for you to stay in that time too long. The tour guide had to go back and try to find her before she died, or before he did. It was one of the few time travel stories I got a kick out of because it had an interesting twist based on the "time cannot be changed" premise.


That sounds interesting. Do you remember the title/author?


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

Azlen said:


> Grant Gustin did an interview with TV Guide and spoiled something that they will be doing going forward. I don't have much faith that they are going to do it well but we'll see.
> Putting the link in spoiler tags as the url contains the spoiler
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



That would certainly explain where the winged helmet came from.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Azlen said:


> Grant Gustin did an interview with TV Guide and spoiled something that they will be doing going forward. I don't have much faith that they are going to do it well but we'll see.
> Putting the link in spoiler tags as the url contains the spoiler
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Sounds way too complicated for TV.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Maybe I missed it, but why did Wells have to be released for the plan to work? He had already given them all the information that they needed. Why allow him to go back?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Azlen said:


> Grant Gustin did an interview with TV Guide and spoiled something that they will be doing going forward. I don't have much faith that they are going to do it well but we'll see.
> Putting the link in spoiler tags as the url contains the spoiler
> 
> 
> ...


"But the writers have their stuff together. If I were to trust anyone, it would be them."

Cue Joe: "How could you be so stupid as to trust the Flash writers?"


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

pmyers said:


> Maybe I missed it, but why did Wells have to be released for the plan to work? He had already given them all the information that they needed. Why allow him to go back?


I assume because Barry promised.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> I usually prefer the "what happened always happened" time travel stories, where you can't really change it and it will always turn out the same way, but they have already kind of disproved that when Barry altered the past earlier this season.


Not to mention that the entire season was already an alternate timeline, if you believe Eobard's version of future history, which based on his reaction to Barry not saving his mom, appears to be accurate.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Just reverse it!
> 
> (Although Star Trek techno-babble is probably too rigorously scientific for The Flash... )


Just reverse the polarity of the neutron flow.



vertigo235 said:


> I usually prefer the "what happened always happened" time travel stories, where you can't really change it and it will always turn out the same way, but they have already kind of disproved that when Barry altered the past earlier this season.





morac said:


> Not to mention that the entire season was already an alternate timeline, if you believe Eobard's version of future history, which based on his reaction to Barry not saving his mom, appears to be accurate.


Unless of course, it was always supposed to happen this way in the end.


----------



## jgickler (Apr 7, 2000)

My theory is that somehow being sucked up into the wormhole is going to save Eddie, and in the process save Eobard/Wells and the timeline where his mother dies, Barry gets powers, etc. Basically, timey wimey wibbly wobbly stuff, but in the end, Eddie doesn't stay dead, so Eobard exists, and the past remains intact. 

The problem I had with the episode is why would they give Wells a functioning time machine, or even let him out of his cell? Once they knew how to send Barry back, why not just renege on the deal with Wells, and leave him in the cage or at the very least, do something that would make his time machine not function properly. Or why did Barry insist on going back to the day his Mom was killed. Wouldn't it have made more sense to go back a few days earlier and warn them to be somewhere else during the night in question? Or once Eddie realized that Eobard was a direct decedent, why not just have a vasectomy while everyone else is building the time machine or shoot off his junk instead of killing himself. Finally, did Barry have any kind of watch or timer on him? Would seem like that would be an important thing to have if he was planning on returning from the past, the countdown clock in the present is worthless to him when he is in the past.

But generally, I was able to suspend reality, it is a superhero show, and found the episode enjoyable. I especially liked the scene between Barry and his Dad, as well as Cisco's HHGTTG reference.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

This was cool:



Spoiler


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> This was cool:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler





Spoiler



I'm wondering if that is going to happen to the Caitlin in the current world or if it will be the Caitlin in a parallel world


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

jgickler said:


> ...The problem I had with the episode is why would they give Wells a functioning time machine, or even let him out of his cell? Once they knew how to send Barry back, why not just renege on the deal with Wells, and leave him in the cage or at the very least, do something that would make his time machine not function properly...


Agreed.


----------



## Mike Lang (Nov 17, 1999)

Title fixed.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Mike Lang said:


> Title fixed.


Thanks.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

jgickler said:


> The problem I had with the episode is why would they give Wells a functioning time machine, or even let him out of his cell? Once they knew how to send Barry back, why not just renege on the deal with Wells, and leave him in the cage or at the very least, do something that would make his time machine not function properly.


For all we know Wells planned to get caught and could have vibrated through the cell any time he wanted to and was just staying there long enough to get Barry to change the time-stream.

I'd think that you'd want to get rid of someone that dangerous. Since they weren't going to kill him, sending him to the future would be the next best thing.

I'm pretty sure Barry didn't mean to destroy the time machine when he came back through the wormhole. I think that was an accident.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

morac said:


> I'm pretty sure Barry didn't mean to destroy the time machine when he came back through the wormhole. I think that was an accident.


I don't know. It looked pretty intentional to me. Barry was coming through the wormhole with his full-on Flash Speed Punch, like he tried with Grodd.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Peter000 said:


> I don't know. It looked pretty intentional to me. Barry was coming through the wormhole with his full-on Flash Speed Punch, like he tried with Grodd.


It looked like it, but i don't think Barry could see what was on the other side of the wormhole when he entered. He may have just been running fast and the time machine was in the way. He also knocked down his friends.


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

morac said:


> ...I'd think that you'd want to get rid of someone that dangerous...


Of course, we could say the same thing for everybody else they stuck in there



morac said:


> ...I'm pretty sure Barry didn't mean to destroy the time machine when he came back through the wormhole. I think that was an accident.


Totally disagree.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jgickler said:


> The problem I had with the episode is why would they give Wells a functioning time machine, or even let him out of his cell? Once they knew how to send Barry back, why not just renege on the deal with Wells, and leave him in the cage or at the very least, do something that would make his time machine not function properly.





pmyers said:


> Agreed.


Heroes like Barry don't renege on deals.

Also, one could argue that having Eobard in the past where he could do more damage to the time stream is more dangerous than letting him return to the future.

In the comics


Spoiler



at one point, Eobard Thawne was killed while in our (Barry's and the readers') present. His death occurring before he was born did cause a disruption in the time stream although nothing to the scale of what we saw in this episode.



Oh and about the singularity,


Spoiler



you don't think it's going to tie into Legends of Tomorrow? It may be the catalyst for Rip Hunter's entrance.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

morac said:


> It looked like it, but i don't think Barry could see what was on the other side of the wormhole when he entered. He may have just been running fast and the time machine was in the way. He also knocked down his friends.


Sure he could. The whole point of being in the wormhole was that he could see everything, and had to focus on where he wanted to go.


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

morac said:


> For all we know Wells planned to get caught and could have vibrated through the cell any time he wanted to and was just staying there long enough to get Barry to change the time-stream.


Then again, if he really wanted the timeline changed, why not just build the time machine himself when he had plenty of time, go back in time, and stop himself?


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Heroes like Barry don't renege on deals.
> 
> Also, one could argue that having Eobard in the past where he could do more damage to the time stream is more dangerous than letting him return to the future.
> 
> ...


Well, my thought would be....

never mind. I'm going to start a different thread.

--edit---
Or should I bother creating a thread for just time-travel discussion?

I'm curious as to what _should_ have happened if Eddie killed himself? Eobard would never have been born. But also, Nora shouldn't have died, so wouldn't the effects of Eddie killing himself be felt as far back as Nora's death? Wouldn't she be alive? And then, wouldn't Eddie himself still be alive? And by virtue, Eobard?


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Can someone please explain the significance of the helmet that came out of the wormhole? I know it's a version of the flash, but I don't remember it.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

I'm torn over this episode, it seems to have been both terrible and awesome at the same time.

The terrible parts were time travel not making any sense (especially the death of Eddy not undoing the entire series to date), no obvious procedure in place to shutdown the world-ending wormhole-of-doom, Eobard's time machine and turning an obvious supervillain lose on society, and Barry risking an entire planet just to got back in time to _not_ save his mother.

Now what were the awesome parts again? I can't put my finger on it, but I just continue to love this show despite its flaws. The finale delivered on an exciting, pleasant experience.

I really expected Barry to save his mom, the new timeline to be some kind of terrible disaster, and Cisco be the one who had to explain to an alternate Barry that he would have to go back and kill his mom to save the world. I know Cisco's memory-across-timelines superpower is going to be important. Maybe in next season's opener.


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Can someone please explain the significance of the helmet that came out of the wormhole? I know it's a version of the flash, but I don't remember it.


That's the helmet worn by the Flash character from the Golden Age of comics, created in 1940.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Drewster said:


> That's the helmet worn by the Flash character from the Golden Age of comics, created in 1940.


 so what was the significance for the show?


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> so what was the significance for the show?


Currently there is no significance. In the future, who knows?


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Drewster said:


> That's the helmet worn by the Flash character from the Golden Age of comics, created in 1940.


Also the Roman God Mercury.

What I think it means for the show is pure speculation, but given it involves comic knowledge can't be discussed openly here.



Spoiler



I think that we get other Flashs next year, from other universes, now that we know Cisco can see them; and that Jay Garrick will be one of them. I think it would be WAY AWESOME if John Wesley Shipp was one of them, too, but I don't really hold out a lot of hope for that.


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

DavidTigerFan said:


> so what was the significance for the show?


I took it simply to be fan service, with the creators drawing on the Flash's many incarnations and iterations in the comics. I *loved* Thawn's reaction, "That means it's time for me to go." Given that they've introduced the notion of alternate timelines and multiple realities, I also took it that Thawn has knowledge of such things.

Whether they hang a dramatic element off it? We'll see!


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

bobcarn said:


> Then again, if he really wanted the timeline changed, why not just build the time machine himself when he had plenty of time, go back in time, and stop himself?


Because Eobard needed a speedster to power the particle accelerator.



DavidTigerFan said:


> so what was the significance for the show?


It means
(drops voice low)



Spoiler



_Parallel Worlds_.


----------



## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

SeanC said:


> Was anyone else annoyed that they had to rush to shut down the wormhole? They knew they were going to have to shut it down at the beginning, why wouldn't they have been ready to do that? Why the mad rush in the final seconds?





scooterboy said:


> I thought they did shut it down as expected, but it reappeared. That's when Snow and Ronnie started yanking at access panels trying to cut the power.





SeanC said:


> Oh, that would definitely explain that.


SeanC was correct about the order of events in his first response.
When time was running out, they rushed to shut down the singularity as if they weren't expecting that they'd have to do it even though it was the plan. Then the singularity re-emerged and they had no way of shutting it down.


----------



## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

bobcarn said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that according to Eobard, the Flash normally would have gotten his powers anyway. He implied that after killing Nora, the timeline was changed and Barry didn't get his powers, forcing him to recreate the accident that does that.


It was never implied that Barry was ever not going to become The Flash. Thawne pretty much straight out stated that he just made it happen a few years earlier than it was supposed to happen.


----------



## TeddS (Sep 21, 2000)

Apparently Eddie was also affected by the explosion - it gave him the very specific meta-human power to be able to shoot himself in the chest and kill any nearby time traveling ancestors in such a way that they dissolve, but their previous actions in the current timeline are not undone. And also be able to die slowly after shooting himself in order to talk about it for a couple of minutes.


----------



## TeddS (Sep 21, 2000)

Plot holes aside, I thought it was an excellent episode and shows that the writers are focused on emotional beats and tying together the inner/outer storylines symbolically much more than making sure that things like time travel issues are completely worked out.

Barry and Eobard had parallel stories - both were stuck in timelines that they were not happy with. This episode culminated with Barry finally sacrificing his selfish desires for a perfect life and finally accepting the life he's been given, and Eobard failing to bring his selfish desires and manipulations to fruition. Barry's acceptance of his mother's death, and his chance to literally go back to reconcile with the event and comfort her as she died, cinched up the series very nicely.

Given how well that was handled, I forgive the writers for their failures when it came to consistent plot development.


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

scandia101 said:


> It was never implied that Barry was ever not going to become The Flash. Thawne pretty much straight out stated that he just made it happen a few years earlier than it was supposed to happen.


There's a bit of ambiguity. In the past, we know that Eobard took over the Wells identity because he wanted to speed up the construction of the particle accelerator. We assumed it was because he wanted the Flash to be created sooner rather than later. But in "Fast Enough", it opened with Eobard stating that after he killed Barry's mom, he became stranded because "The Flash was gone", and that's why he had to create the Flash.

Which bugs me because if he was successful in killing Barry-as-a-child, then there'd definitely be no Flash. He doesn't seem like he's stupid enough to not realize the implications. Maybe he just has serious anger-management issues and becomes blinded to logic when he's pissed.


----------



## TeddS (Sep 21, 2000)

bobcarn said:


> There's a bit of ambiguity. In the past, we know that Eobard took over the Wells identity because he wanted to speed up the construction of the particle accelerator. We assumed it was because he wanted the Flash to be created sooner rather than later. But in "Fast Enough", it opened with Eobard stating that after he killed Barry's mom, he became stranded because "The Flash was gone", and that's why he had to create the Flash.
> 
> Which bugs me because if he was successful in killing Barry-as-a-child, then there'd definitely be no Flash. He doesn't seem like he's stupid enough to not realize the implications. Maybe he just has serious anger-management issues and becomes blinded to logic when he's pissed.


IIRC, Eobard didn't expect to have to fight future Flash when he went back to kill child Barry, thus he used up more Flash Force magic power than he thought he would have to, stranding him in the past with no power source to recharge after he ran out.


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Ereth said:


> Also the Roman God Mercury.
> 
> What I think it means for the show is pure speculation, but given it involves comic knowledge can't be discussed openly here.
> 
> ...


In this case, it may actually be a spoiler, because....


Spoiler



from interviews, they do want to introduce more speedsters in the 2nd season.

If Barry was dressing up for Halloween as Mercury and wore the helmet, we'd likely be able to say "nice easter egg!" and explain it openly that it's a nod to the original Flash character from the '40s. But seeing that it's likely to be a plot device, we have to treat it differently.



On that line of discussion, and in response to some things mentioned here (this is a definite spoiler from outside interviews)...


Spoiler



I've seen talk of Barry traveling to alternate realities, one of which is the Smallville universe, with Tom Welling reprising his role as Superman. It's a shame he had such an aversion to wearing the suit and flying. He really played the character well. He was one of the very few characters on the show who was consistently in touch with his morality. In any case, there's been strong evidence from interviews that they really want to explore different universes.


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

TeddS said:


> IIRC, Eobard didn't expect to have to fight future Flash when he went back to kill child Barry, thus he used up more Flash Force magic power than he thought he would have to, stranding him in the past with no power source to recharge after he ran out.


That's a logical deduction though, not something that was openly stated. Another premise could be that if there was going to be a Flash, he wouldn't have to go to any extra lengths, he could just hang out and wait for him to be created, letting history unfold until there was enough speed force to return home.


----------



## TeddS (Sep 21, 2000)

bobcarn said:


> That's a logical deduction though, not something that was openly stated. Another premise could be that if there was going to be a Flash, he wouldn't have to go to any extra lengths, he could just hang out and wait for him to be created, letting history unfold until there was enough speed force to return home.


My memory is hazy, but I thought that was explicitly stated. Or maybe I'm remembering an alternate timeline.


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

TeddS said:


> My memory is hazy, but I thought that was explicitly stated. Or maybe I'm remembering an alternate timeline.


I'd have to watch that scene again. I seem to remember Gideon telling Eobard that he was depleted of energy and couldn't get back, the reason why being conjecture on our part.

Grrrr! He can't tap into the speed force because there was no Flash, but then again, we just saw that there _was_ another Flash in that house watching the fight.


----------



## TeddS (Sep 21, 2000)

bobcarn said:


> Grrrr! He can't tap into the speed force because there was no Flash, but then again, we just saw that there _was_ another Flash in that house watching the fight.


Easy enough to explain - there was a even-more-in-the-future version of Cisco in the upstairs bedroom, zapping the house with a speed force dampening device. That will be explained in S02E17.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tedds said:


> easy enough to explain - there was a even-more-in-the-future version of cisco in the upstairs bedroom, zapping the house with a speed force dampening device. That will be was explained in s02e17.


fyp.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Cisco built a time machine in about 15 minutes. I'm used to tv shows having geniuses do extraordinary things but that tops them all.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Cisco built a time machine in about 15 minutes. I'm used to tv shows having geniuses do extraordinary things but that tops them all.


To be fair, apparently the time machine only works if you have someone who can run fast enough to strike a proton partical in a large partical accelerator to open a wormhole in the fabric of time.

I mean, the time machine was just a vessel to navigate the wormhole right?


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> To be fair, apparently the time machine only works if you have someone who can run fast enough to strike a proton partical in a large partical accelerator to open a wormhole in the fabric of time.
> 
> I mean, the time machine was just a vessel to navigate the wormhole right?


yeah...it looked like those "pods" in the new Jurassic Park movie. My thought was the "pod" was just protection for the traveller.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Plus, Wells/Thawne had been squirreling away the parts for a while.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

bobcarn said:


> I'd have to watch that scene again. I seem to remember Gideon telling Eobard that he was depleted of energy and couldn't get back, the reason why being conjecture on our part.
> 
> Grrrr! He can't tap into the speed force because there was no Flash, but then again, we just saw that there _was_ another Flash in that house watching the fight.


But if he doesn't stay in the past, he doesn't create the Flash that was watching the fight in the first place.


----------



## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

JYoung said:


> But if he doesn't stay in the past, he doesn't create the Flash that was watching the fight in the first place.


Is anyone else getting a headache?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

"I hate temporal mechanics..." &#8211; Miles O'Brien


----------



## inaka (Nov 26, 2001)

Plot holes aside, I really liked the finale. Was it far-fetched and dumb to risk the entire extinction of the planet based on trusting a bad guy and just to see your mom? Of course, but hey, it's a comic book show. 

I actually wasn't expecting Barry to go back for just that emotional few moments with his mom. That was a nice touch. And I personally don't mind ending the season on a massive cliff hanger.

This show has been pure fun in most cases. I really liked the dark side of Arrow S1, and to me, Daredevil is so dark that I enjoy it, but don't really look forward to seeing it...if that makes sense. I really look forward to The Flash, and the often light-hearted nature of the show has been a pleasant surprise.

One question: I totally forgot the second-to-last episode (because I hated it) but HOW DID THEY CAPTURE WELLS? For the finale, it started without any "previously on The Flash" and my mind must be going, but Wells was behind glass in the Star Labs prison with no explanation. Was this explained in the previous episode? I totally am drawing a blank here.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Plus, Wells/Thawne had been squirreling away the parts for a while.


And he had the plans. It's not that Cisco had to INVENT the thing, only assemble it. It had already been invented, and all the parts and plans were there. No more difficult than new furniture from Ikea. In fact, maybe less difficult.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

inaka said:


> One question: I totally forgot the second-to-last episode (because I hated it) but HOW DID THEY CAPTURE WELLS? For the finale, it started without any "previously on The Flash" and my mind must be going, but Wells was behind glass in the Star Labs prison with no explanation. Was this explained in the previous episode? I totally am drawing a blank here.


Flash, Arrow and Firestorm defeated Wells in a fight and knocked him out.

I think this article summed up the finale pretty well, a few comic book easter eggs are mentioned for those who want to avoid that.

http://io9.com/hey-other-comic-book-shows-the-flash-finale-just-kicke-1705776185


----------



## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

inaka said:


> Plot holes aside, I really liked the finale. Was it far-fetched and dumb to risk the entire extinction of the planet based on trusting a bad guy and just to see your mom? Of course, but hey, it's a comic book show.
> 
> I actually wasn't expecting Barry to go back for just that emotional few moments with his mom.


He didn't. He went back to save her. Then his future self signaled him not to do it.


----------



## inaka (Nov 26, 2001)

scooterboy said:


> He didn't. * He went back to save her.* Then his future self signaled him not to do it.


Debatable.



morac said:


> Flash, Arrow and Firestorm defeated Wells in a fight and knocked him out.
> 
> I think this article summed up the finale pretty well, a few comic book easter eggs are mentioned for those who want to avoid that.
> 
> http://io9.com/hey-other-comic-book-shows-the-flash-finale-just-kicke-1705776185


Ahhh...gotcha, thanks.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

inaka said:


> Debatable.


Not really...it's all he's talked about all season. There's never been a hint otherwise.


----------



## inaka (Nov 26, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not really...it's all he's talked about all season. There's never been a hint otherwise.


He was conflicted, up until the very moment he went back in.
Again, it was debatable because he was conflicted as to what he should do.


----------



## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> so what was the significance for the show?


The FTD Flower delivery guy got swept up in the wormhole and Thawne is deathly allergic to roses.

That's why he knew had had to get out of there.


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

Langree said:


> The FTD Flower delivery guy got swept up in the wormhole and Thawne is deathly allergic to roses.
> 
> That's why he knew had had to get out of there.


:up: :up:


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

So what's the over/under on Cisco working on a costume ring in Season 2?


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Haven't read the thread yet, but this apparently wasn't mentioned already (unless by episode name)..

As many pop culture references as Cisco makes, I totally can't believe he didn't refer to Edith Keeler in the beginning when they were talking about the time continuum and causality.

Possibly mentioned -- if the guy from "Ed" coming back is what made him be The Flash, how did the FIRST iteration of The Flash happen?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mattack said:


> As many pop culture references as Cisco makes, I totally can't believe he didn't refer to Edith Keeler in the beginning when they were talking about the time continuum and causality.


Bear in mind that not only was Cisco not born yet, it's possible his parents weren't born when that episode aired...


mattack said:


> Possibly mentioned -- if the guy from "Ed" coming back is what made him be The Flash, how did the FIRST iteration of The Flash happen?


Yes, it was mentioned.

Barry always became the Flash. All Eobard did was make it happen faster (because he was in a hurry to get back to his own time). He re-created (pre-created?) the accident that history told him had created the Flash.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Bear in mind that not only was Cisco not born yet, it's possible his parents weren't born when that episode aired...


You really think Cisco hasn't watched every episode of Trek? It's not like they're hard to find. Netflix for goodness sake.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Peter000 said:


> You really think Cisco hasn't watched every episode of Trek? It's not like they're hard to find. Netflix for goodness sake.


Exactly. I would bet that more people have viewed it years after it aired rather than on the original air date.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> You really think Cisco hasn't watched every episode of Trek? It's not like they're hard to find. Netflix for goodness sake.


I think it's entirely plausible. There is far, far too much geek culture for somebody of his age to have seen it all, and it's conceivable that he's more interested in his geek culture, or his parents' geek culture, than his grandparents' geek culture.

And perhaps he falls on the Star War side of the divide! 

Seriously, though, I would never bet on what anybody his age has or hasn't seen from over four decades ago. It's a different world.


----------



## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think it's entirely plausible. There is far, far too much geek culture for somebody of his age to have seen it all, and it's conceivable that he's more interested in his geek culture, or his parents' geek culture, than his grandparents' geek culture.
> 
> And perhaps he falls on the Star War side of the divide!
> 
> Seriously, though, I would never bet on what anybody his age has or hasn't seen from over four decades ago. It's a different world.


The show is 4 decades old, but the movies, including the reboots have stopped it from fading into obscurity.

When anyone new to it ask about watching the series "City on the Edge of Forever" is considered a must see.


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

yeah....I'm in the camp that Flash went back to save his mom and THEN decided not to. I think the idea that he went back just to say "Hi" is silly.


----------



## inaka (Nov 26, 2001)

pmyers said:


> yeah....I'm in the camp that Flash went back to save his mom and THEN decided not to. I think the idea that he went back just to say "Hi" is silly.


More like "Goodbye"...not "hi".


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Barry always became the Flash. All Eobard did was make it happen faster (because he was in a hurry to get back to his own time). He re-created (pre-created?) the accident that history told him had created the Flash.


Not according to Eobard.

A Barry Allen (for argument's sake we'll call him version #1 and not version 1956) got hit by lighting and chemicals and became the Flash.
That Flash eventually becomes the sworn enemy of one Eobard Thawne from the 22nd or 23rd century (did anyone catch that one?).

Somewhere along the line, Eobard discovers Barry Allen is the Flash (maybe by finding Gideon?) and eventually gets so ticked off at him, he decides to kill Barry #1 as a kid.
He goes back in time but a future (to us) Barry (with the white chest insignia) stops him by whisking his younger self out of the area.

Thawne then decides to kill Barry's mother because he's that kind of guy and does so.
The resulting trauma somehow prevents young Barry or Barry #2 from becoming the Flash or at least being in the accident that gives birth to the Flash.

This results in Thawne losing his connection to the Speed Force (well, how can there be a Reverse Flash without the Flash) and he's stuck hundreds of years in the past.
The only way he knows how to time travel involves the Speed Force so he starts planning. (I'm guessing suspended animation wasn't an option.) He kills the real Harrison Wells and assumes his identity so he can move up construction of the particle accelerator.

The accelerator serves two functions.:

1. To help recreate the accident that gave Barry Allen his super speed. (And I don't see any indication that the accident was moved up a number of years.)

2. To aid in the creation of a stable wormhole in which he can ride through in a time sphere to return home.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Not according to Eobard.
> 
> A Barry Allen (for argument's sake we'll call him version #1 and not version 1956) got hit by lighting and chemicals and became the Flash.


When did he say this?

I thought Eobard came back to kill Barry; was foiled and stranded; and became Wells in order to trigger the accident that caused Barry to become the Flash sooner than in his timeline, so he would have Barry and the accelerator to send him back to the future.

I.e., it was always the accelerator that caused the accident, but in this new timeline Eobard created, it happened sooner.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> When did he say this?
> 
> I thought Eobard came back to kill Barry; was foiled and stranded; and became Wells in order to trigger the accident that caused Barry to become the Flash sooner than in his timeline, so he would have Barry and the accelerator to send him back to the future.
> 
> I.e., it was always the accelerator that caused the accident, but in this new timeline Eobard created, it happened sooner.


This was my understanding as well...

And I still don't get the Speed Force thing fully, if Eobard can't access the speed force how is he so fast and able to easily defeat Barry?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> When did he say this?
> 
> I thought Eobard came back to kill Barry; was foiled and stranded; and became Wells in order to trigger the accident that caused Barry to become the Flash sooner than in his timeline, so he would have Barry and the accelerator to send him back to the future.
> 
> I.e., it was always the accelerator that caused the accident, but in this new timeline Eobard created, it happened sooner.


Sorry, I was disagreeing with your statement that Barry always became the Flash. He didn't after Thawne killed Nora so Thawne/Wells had to recreate the accident that created the Flash.
(Assuming of course, that ole Eobard was telling the truth.)

That said, it's my belief that Eobard didn't move up the actual timeline of the lightning accident (or if he did the universe self corrected by keeping Barry in a coma for nine months).

IIRC, Eobard told the real Wells that the particle accelerator was built circa 2020.
If that was what caused the lightning accident originally, Thawne would have moved up the Flash's origin six or seven years.

What causes me to hesitate is the belief that Barry and Oliver were always contemporaries and started crime fighting at about same time (ok, two years apart here but Oliver only really went public with the Arrow persona the previous year).

That would mean that in the original timeline, Oliver would have started out seven or eight years or so before Barry became the Flash.
That's too large of a time separation for me unless you want to say that Eobard also caused the Queen's Gambit to go down years ahead of schedule as well.

Nothing Thawne said indicates that he definitely moved up the lightning accident.
Nothing he said indicates he didn't either though.


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

JYoung said:


> 1. To help recreate the accident that gave Barry Allen his super speed. (And I don't see any indication that the accident was moved up a number of years.)


Eobard said as much when he killed the real Wells.

*Eobard:* In the year 2020, you and your wife, Tess Morgan, successfully launched a particle accelerator that changed the course of history. I need it to happen a _bit_ sooner if I'm going to get back. Much sooner.






--Carlos V.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Sorry, I was disagreeing with your statement that Barry always became the Flash. He didn't after Thawne killed Nora so Thawne/Wells had to recreate the accident that created the Flash.
> (Assuming of course, that ole Eobard was telling the truth.)


Where are you getting this? All Wells wanted to do was step up the timetable under which the accelerator explosion would turn Barry into the Flash.


JYoung said:


> What causes me to hesitate is the belief that Barry and Oliver were always contemporaries and started crime fighting at about same time (ok, two years apart here but Oliver only really went public with the Arrow persona the previous year).


Again, where are you getting this?

Arrow and The Flash take place entirely in the revised timeline that is the result of Eobard's failed attempt on Barry. We don't know what Ollie and Barry's relationship was in Eobard's original past.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Unbeliever said:


> Eobard said as much when he killed the real Wells.
> 
> *Eobard:* In the year 2020, you and your wife, Tess Morgan, successfully launched a particle accelerator that changed the course of history. I need it to happen a _bit_ sooner if I'm going to get back. Much sooner.


"Changed the course of history" is a little vague.
That could equally mean that it caused the explosion of Krypton.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Where are you getting this? All Wells wanted to do was step up the timetable under which the accelerator explosion would turn Barry into the Flash.


From Eobard's own words:


> But then I thought what if you were to suffer a tragedy?
> What if you were to suffer something so horrible, so traumatic that your child self could never recover?
> *Then you would not become The Flash*.
> 
> ...





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Again, where are you getting this?
> 
> Arrow and The Flash take place entirely in the revised timeline that is the result of Eobard's failed attempt on Barry. We don't know what Ollie and Barry's relationship was in Eobard's original past.


I stated that it was my belief.
We do know that they had enough of a relationship that "Green Arrow" came to help the Flash in 2024.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

So here is how the time flow seems to be (someone can obviously correct me if I'm wrong)

Original timeline. Barry becomes Flash, mom is alive, Dad is not in jail. Flash meets RF sometime in the future. RF initially doesn't know the Flash is Barry.

Initial altered timeline. RF kills Barry's mom, No Flash. RF is stuck in the past though and doesn't want to be.

Second alteration: RF kills Harrison Wells, speeds up timeline of Flash creation and creates Flash. (this is the timeline in which the show seems to reside)

Third alteration: Eddie kills himself erasing RF from existence. This should set things back to the original timeline. That doesn't seem to be the case, but we won't know for sure what's changed until next season. 

Is that right?


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I think you have it wrong. Eobard went back in time to kill a young Barry Allen. But the (future) Flash showed up and thwarted him. Since he couldn't kill Barry, he killed his mother, just because he was PO'd. The Flash then travels back to his own time, with Eobard in the past. Its only then that Eobard realizes there is no speed force back in that time: that the speed force may have been created, if not by Barry, then by the particle accellerator that created the Flash. He can't access the speed force and return to his time until Barry becomes the Flash, and there is a speed force to tap into. He gets impatient, kills Wells, and moves up the timetable for the accelerator explosion.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Azlen said:


> So here is how the time flow seems to be (someone can obviously correct me if I'm wrong)
> 
> Original timeline. Barry becomes Flash, mom is alive, Dad is not in jail. Flash meets RF sometime in the future. RF initially doesn't know the Flash is Barry.
> 
> ...


I thought:

Original timeline. Barry becomes Flash, mom is alive, Dad is not in jail. Flash meets RF sometime in the future. RF initially doesn't know the Flash is Barry but finds out and decides to come back and kill Barry or his Mom or something to make it so Flash never existed.

Initial altered timeline. Flash shows up and thwarts RF plans - RF kills Barry's mom. RF realizes that he is stuck in the past though and doesn't want to be so he kills Harrison Wells, speeds up timeline of Flash creation and creates Flash. Fast forward to the time Flash goes back to try to change it but decides otherwise, timeline unaltered. Upon return Eddie kills himself and appears that is erasing RF from existence.

This is the timeline in which the show seems to reside - not sure why you have this as two altered timelines?

The only other altered timeline was Flash accidentally resetting the one where he get Iris/Cisco is killed by RF, etc.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Ereth said:


> It's very important not to think too hard about the black hole. Even if you don't know enough physics to realize that Barry would be torn apart by tidal forces as he approached it, you should wonder "What the heck is he running on?" and also "how does running fast alter gravity?". Informed speculation about a character we saw briefly but who was not named in the finale: * SPOILER *





Spoiler



nth metal


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Where are you getting this? All Wells wanted to do was step up the timetable under which the accelerator explosion would turn Barry into the Flash. Again, where are you getting this? Arrow and The Flash take place entirely in the revised timeline that is the result of Eobard's failed attempt on Barry. We don't know what Ollie and Barry's relationship was in Eobard's original past.


Actually. Three minutes in, Wells says "the Flash was gone and so I created him." Not delayed or too late but gone. That's where they are getting it.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> I think you have it wrong. Eobard went back in time to kill a young Barry Allen. But the (future) Flash showed up and thwarted him. Since he couldn't kill Barry, he killed his mother, just because he was PO'd. The Flash then travels back to his own time, with Eobard in the past. Its only then that Eobard realizes there is no speed force back in that time: that the speed force may have been created, if not by Barry, then by the particle accellerator that created the Flash. He can't access the speed force and return to his time until Barry becomes the Flash, and there is a speed force to tap into. He gets impatient, kills Wells, and moves up the timetable for the accelerator explosion.


He didnt kill her just because he was po'd. He said it would be a trauma that would result in Barry not becoming the flash.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Actually. Three minutes in, Wells says "the Flash was gone and so I created him." Not delayed or too late but gone. That's where they are getting it.


Yeah, but if he's stuck in the past, is he basing that off of the future newspaper, I guess?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> Yeah, but if he's stuck in the past, is he basing that off of the future newspaper, I guess?


I think he was basing it on the speed force not existing. He couldn't get back.

It wasn't that the speed force didn't exist in the past. Two Flashes and a Reverse Flash were running around just fine. After he killed Mom and Barry no longer becomes the Flash, the speed force doesn't get created.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BTW, I think the time paradox of Eddie killing himself yet everything else seems the same is why the singularity opens.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

pjenkins said:


> I thought:
> 
> Original timeline. Barry becomes Flash, mom is alive, Dad is not in jail. Flash meets RF sometime in the future. RF initially doesn't know the Flash is Barry but finds out and decides to come back and kill Barry or his Mom or something to make it so Flash never existed.
> 
> ...


Basically what Tony said. The first thing he changed caused the Flash to not exist. The second alteration had to bring the Flash back into existence. I'm assuming that the paper didn't mention the Flash until he made the second alteration which is why he checked it in the pilot episode to make sure he recreated the Flash.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> He didnt kill her just because he was po'd. He said it would be a trauma that would result in Barry not becoming the flash.


That was just a hastily prepared plan B since he didn't kill young Barry.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> That was just a hastily prepared plan B since he didn't kill young Barry.


But he didn't kill her because he was angry. He killed her for a purpose.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I think the first mistake is that you guys are trying to make sense of it


----------



## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

I'm wondering if the writers agonize over it this much.


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Azlen said:


> Basically what Tony said. The first thing he changed caused the Flash to not exist. The second alteration had to bring the Flash back into existence. I'm assuming that the paper didn't mention the Flash until he made the second alteration which is why he checked it in the pilot episode to make sure he recreated the Flash.


It could have been MUCH worse you know. if they had done in The Flash what was done in the movie Looper when dealing with temporal paradoxes, imagine the discussions in this thread?   By comparison, this was pretty well thought-out.


----------



## DouglasPHill (Feb 10, 2005)

I apologize if this was covered earlier in the thread, the second time Barry went back, his other self told him not to save his mother. That other self was actually an older Barry, correct? Was there any explanation as to why the other self signaled him not to save his mother?


----------



## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

DouglasPHill said:


> I apologize if this was covered earlier in the thread, the second time Barry went back, his other self told him not to save his mother. That other self was actually an older Barry, correct? Was there any explanation as to why the other self signaled him not to save his mother?


Not yet.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> I think the first mistake is that you guys are trying to make sense of it


Yes. Although I think we may get some "adjustments" to the timeline next season. All we saw so far was the main cast that went through the whole thing and a couple others in single shots.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

LOL
You guys are way over thinking a TV show based on a comic book.


----------



## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

robojerk said:


> LOL
> You guys are way over thinking a TV show based on a comic book.


Welcome to TCF, where disputes over meaningless minutia in a make-believe TV world is a way of life.

Just be glad we don't spill our _spoiler _debate into this thread...!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MikeCC said:


> Just be glad we don't spill our _spoiler _debate into this thread...!


Since your knowledge of the spoiler debate comes from outside this thread, shouldn't it be tagged?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Since your knowledge of the spoiler debate comes from outside this thread, shouldn't it be tagged?





Spoiler



Nah


----------



## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Since your knowledge of the spoiler debate comes from outside this thread, shouldn't it be tagged?





Spoiler



Oops. Should we debate _THAT_?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

MikeCC said:


> * SPOILER *


Find the closest Big Bang thread and do it there.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Pretty good article on the comic book Flash and how he is (debatably) the most important superhero in the DC universe.

There are comic book spoilers so be warned. No show spoilers, but it does mention the show.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/most-important-character-dc-universe-193800680.html

It's kinda weird that the article is in the Yahoo Finance section.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

That article skipped possibly the most important thing...


Spoiler



that The Flash triggered the New 52 reboot of the entire DC comics universe!


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That article skipped possibly the most important thing...* SPOILER *


In a story line that the TV show came close to but dodged.


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Sorry, I was disagreeing with your statement that Barry always became the Flash. He didn't after Thawne killed Nora so Thawne/Wells had to recreate the accident that created the Flash.
> (Assuming of course, that ole Eobard was telling the truth.)
> 
> That said, it's my belief that Eobard didn't move up the actual timeline of the lightning accident (or if he did the universe self corrected by keeping Barry in a coma for nine months).
> ...


That's what I'm thinking. I lean towards thinking he didn't sped up the accident. I think he did something that prevented it from happening when it was supposed to, so he sped up building the particle accelerator to ensure the accident happened when it should have.


----------



## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

robojerk said:


> LOL
> You guys are way over thinking a TV show based on a comic book.


Sad, isn't it?


----------



## classicX (May 10, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> BTW, I think the time paradox of Eddie killing himself yet everything else seems the same is why the singularity opens.


I was thinking the same thing - the second singularity showed up to reset the time line.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

classicX said:


> I was thinking the same thing - the second singularity showed up to reset the time line.


Mother nature hates it when you rearrange the furniture ...


----------



## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> Find the closest Big Bang thread and do it there.


And here I was thinking we were staying remarkably on topic for a TCF Now playing thread.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> That was just a hastily prepared plan B since he didn't kill young Barry.





TonyD79 said:


> But he didn't kill her because he was angry. He killed her for a purpose.


It was both.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

JYoung said:


> It was both.


My point was he was already angry with Barry. He killed mom because he was angry but not angry at not killing Barry. It was a plan, not just a moment of passion.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Or, it's a a TV show


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> My point was he was already angry with Barry. He killed mom because he was angry but not angry at not killing Barry. It was a plan, not just a moment of passion.


It came across as a moment of passion to me. He went back in time to kill the young Barry. _That_ was the plan. When it was thwarted, he became pissed and decided to kill the mom.

Though I would think he didn't think the whole thing through. He should have realized that killing Barry would have ramifications as to his own future and ability to return to it.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

bobcarn said:


> It came across as a moment of passion to me. He went back in time to kill the young Barry. _That_ was the plan. When it was thwarted, he became pissed and decided to kill the mom.
> 
> Though I would think he didn't think the whole thing through. He should have realized that killing Barry would have ramifications as to his own future and ability to return to it.


That shows that the good guys don't have a monopoly on stupid.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

allan said:


> That shows that the good guys don't have a monopoly on stupid.


On this show, there's plenty to go around!


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

bobcarn said:


> It came across as a moment of passion to me. He went back in time to kill the young Barry. _That_ was the plan. When it was thwarted, he became pissed and decided to kill the mom.
> 
> Though I would think he didn't think the whole thing through. He should have realized that killing Barry would have ramifications as to his own future and ability to return to it.


Because he missed a point does not mean it is a moment of passion. It was actually a pretty complex theory. If he said, "I just wanted to make you pay and your mother was near by" then it was a moment of passion. He actually thought that killing Barry's mom would be the solution. Hell, killing Barry would have mean the same; the speed force wouldn't exist and he would be trapped in that time period. Was it all passion or did he plan it? If you agree he planned the killing of Barry in the first place, then killing the mom is pretty much the same plan with the same flaw. Perhaps he didn't know that the speed force would disappear without Barry?


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

I think a lot of what he does is out of passion. When Barry came back and busted up his time machine, he flipped out and was ready to kill everyone. That wasn't planned, he was just pissed. He's got serious anger management issues.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

bobcarn said:


> I think a lot of what he does is out of passion. When Barry came back and busted up his time machine, he flipped out and was ready to kill everyone. That wasn't planned, he was just pissed. He's got serious anger management issues.


 We are using different interpretations of passion. I'm using it like a "crime of passion" which is a reaction and no planning, no reason at all. Same as with "out of anger." That is reaction. He can be angry and not do something blindly. It still suited his plan to eradicate the Flash. If she was just in the way when he failed and killed her in the same way someone would throw a glass against the wall, that is a crime of passion. That is blind rage. That isn't what happened.

I think you are saying he is mad at Barry and it wasn't his original plan so it is out of anger. That wouldn't hold up as a defense. What he saw was Plan B and he was in full use of his faculties. The plan was wrong from the start. He just didn't see it.

But, yes, he had anger management issues. Although he is not in blind rage when he tells Barry he is going to kill everyone. That was a threat in battle because they could not beat each other. He even says so.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> But, yes, he had anger management issues. Although he is not in blind rage when he tells Barry he is going to kill everyone. That was a threat in battle because they could not beat each other. He even says so.


Huh?
What are you talking about?

Eobard had the upper hand and said that he was going to kill everyone else (the rest of Team Flash) after he had killed Barry.
That's why Eddie shot himself.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Cisco saying "May the speed force be with you" was pretty awesome, but it would have been even better had that line been used in the episode with the Trickster.

I chortled at Martin Stein's comment about saying "Eureka, or maybe Excelsior" - nice DC tip of the hat to Marvel.


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> We are using different interpretations of passion. I'm using it like a "crime of passion" which is a reaction and no planning, no reason at all. Same as with "out of anger." That is reaction. He can be angry and not do something blindly. It still suited his plan to eradicate the Flash. If she was just in the way when he failed and killed her in the same way someone would throw a glass against the wall, that is a crime of passion. That is blind rage. That isn't what happened.
> 
> I think you are saying he is mad at Barry and it wasn't his original plan so it is out of anger. That wouldn't hold up as a defense. What he saw was Plan B and he was in full use of his faculties. The plan was wrong from the start. He just didn't see it.
> 
> But, yes, he had anger management issues. Although he is not in blind rage when he tells Barry he is going to kill everyone. That was a threat in battle because they could not beat each other. He even says so.


I just don't recall anything where he says killing his mom was _planned_. He said he went back in time to kill Barry, couldn't, and decided that he would make Barry suffer by killing his mom. That doesn't sound at all like something he had planned before he started his plan.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I had the same impression, Bob. I don't think he had "Plan B" in mind before he left, but he came up with it once he was there. Not that it's not a good "Plan B", I just didn't get the impression it was something he had worked out prior to the time trip.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I never said it was ore planned. Plan B does not mean it was pre planned. It was still a plan. Not a violent reaction but a plan. 

It wasn't a good one but neither was Plan A. He would be stuck (moreso) if he had killed Barry.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Plan B does not mean it was pre planned. It was still a plan. Not a violent reaction but a plan.


Wait, what? How is it a plan if it's not pre-planned?


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

He travelled back to the future to work on plan B.


----------



## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

Let's try to keep the politics out of this.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Plan B isn't needed for those who can time travel.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I'm not even sure what people are arguing about anymore.


----------



## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

I think it was about if The Flash has rockets on his skates to propel him.


----------



## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

DING! Good morning. I'm sorry the five minutes is up.


----------



## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

RGM1138 said:


> I think it was about if The Flash has rockets on his skates to propel him.


Ah, but what if he was on his treadmill?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

scooterboy said:


> Ah, but what if he was on his treadmill?


He'd still become airborne.


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> I never said it was ore planned. Plan B does not mean it was pre planned. It was still a plan. Not a violent reaction but a plan.
> 
> It wasn't a good one but neither was Plan A. He would be stuck (moreso) if he had killed Barry.


I think you're expanding on the definition of "plan". It was a _decision_ (as opposed to an accident), but it was a decision he made in what amounted to a few seconds. "Plans" require forethought (hence the word "planning"). In a remote sense of the word, he did use forethought, but it was only for a couple seconds while he was enraged.

I think we all agree with the same concept though. He wasn't planning on doing that _before_ he went back to kill Barry.


----------



## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

scooterboy said:


> Ah, but what if he was on his treadmill?


He'd be going nowhere, rapidly.


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

RGM1138 said:


> He'd be going nowhere, rapidly.


Ah, but if he used it as a time machine, then he'd move through time.


----------



## rjay717 (Nov 18, 2005)

robojerk said:


> LOL
> You guys are way over thinking a TV show based on a comic book.


Actually it's perfectly appropriate for this show. This is exactly what comic book fans do with the actual comics books.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Comic book fans make Big Bang Theory fans look like, er, robojerk.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Comic book fans make Big Bang Theory fans look like, er, robojerk.


:|


----------



## classicX (May 10, 2006)

robojerk said:


> :|


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Soooooo, remember that helmet that popped out of the wormhole?

The CW teased this image on Twitter for the upcoming season 2:
(Potential spoiler for those who don't know what the helmet means)



Spoiler














__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/631212947713318912
Interesting that Barry'e emblem is white in that.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Soooooo, remember that helmet that popped out of the wormhole?
> 
> The CW teased this image on Twitter for the upcoming season 2:
> (Potential spoiler for those who don't know what the helmet means)
> ...


I LOVED this tweet it's perfect, as much as TPTB have a complete inability to understand movies the way Marvel does it's clear that The Flash team "gets it"


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> I LOVED this tweet it's perfect, as much as TPTB have a complete inability to understand movies the way Marvel does it's clear that The Flash team "gets it"


Well, it helps that DC Chief Creative Officer Geoff Johns is good buddies with Greg Berlanti and crew.

Marvel though, has a clear advantage with them overseeing their own productions and studio (division).

By putting Kevin Feige in charge of the MCU and having him report the heads of Marvel helps ensure that the movies and TV shows made are the types of movies that the people at Marvel want to see.

You can see the difference with the way the the Spider-Man and Fantastic Four movies are, which are helmed by Sony and Fox, not Marvel.
(Even the X-Men movies suffer some due to them not being under Marvel control.)
Because those franchises aren't under Marvel control and Fox and Sony are really concerned with making the next box office blockbuster, not a good Spider-Man/FF(/X-Men) movie.

DC has the same issue with their movie properties as their sister company Warner Brothers Studio basically views them as "creative fodder" for the next blockbuster movie and also aren't really concerned with making a good "DC Comics" movie.

It's really dependent on who the director is and if the studio is willing to let them run with it, which is why I'm not happy to see Zach Snyder with the keys to the DC Movies.

(I also know that the studio ran roughshod over Martin Campbell on Green Lantern, to the point where Campbell didn't have final casting approval or final cut approval.)

The "DC TV division" seems to be getting handled a little differently though.
I've been told that all the TV series scripts are getting run by Geoff Johns.

So not only does Johns read and make notes on the scripts for the Flash, he also does it on Arrow, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow, and Gotham as well, helping to ensure a more cohesive Universe.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> (I also know that the studio ran roughshod over Martin Campbell on Green Lantern, to the point where Campbell didn't have final casting approval or final cut approval.)


To be fair, the same thing happens at Marvel (e.g., Edgar Wright on [and off] Ant-Man). Even Joss Whedon didn't have free reign. The difference is, Marvel seems to be a lot smarter about running roughshod over its talent.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> To be fair, the same thing happens at Marvel (e.g., Edgar Wright on [and off] Ant-Man). Even Joss Whedon didn't have free reign. The difference is, Marvel seems to be a lot smarter about running roughshod over its talent.


Well yes, and the key difference is that it's _Marvel_ that's calling the shots and not the Fox/Sony/Warner Studio executives.

I think by now, any director that goes to work on a Marvel project realizes that it's Marvel's Universe and they have to ultimately abide by Marvel's wishes.

And from what I've read about Wright, he had a good script but his vision didn't fit with Feige and Marvel's overall plan for the MCU.

(In fact, Evangeline Lilly went on record about that. She nearly walked after Wright's departure.)

From what I've been able to glean from multiple sources, there was a lot of conflict on Green Lantern, to the point where Geoff Johns lost a lot of credibility on the Warner side. (I suspect Guggenheim and Berlanti didn't fair a lot better).

(I was invited to a screening of Green Lantern hosted by Johns opening night or the night before the movie opening. Before the film Johns got up to introduce the film. He thanked everyone for coming and then said, "Mark Strong's performance, totally worth it" and sat down.
That's when I knew he had no faith in the film.)


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## bryhamm (Jun 30, 2004)

If anyone sees a rerun of this ep and bumps this thread indicating it, I will be extremely grateful. Been keeping my eyes open, but haven't seen anything yet.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

bryhamm said:


> If anyone sees a rerun of this ep and bumps this thread indicating it, I will be extremely grateful. Been keeping my eyes open, but haven't seen anything yet.


I'm guessing it won't air again until a week before the season 2 premiere.


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## bryhamm (Jun 30, 2004)

Peter000 said:


> I'm guessing it won't air again until a week before the season 2 premiere.


This is what I am hoping for.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Soooooo, remember that helmet that popped out of the wormhole?
> 
> The CW teased this image on Twitter for the upcoming season 2:
> (Potential spoiler for those who don't know what the helmet means)
> ...


So there is hope we might see Chloe from Smallville...


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Interesting video feature about the CGI used to create the Flash's speed and Central City.

They're using more CGI than I realized.


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