# Game of Thrones S3E5 04/28/2013 'Kissed By Fire'



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Congratulations to Jon Snow! 

The scene with Jaime and Brienne was fantastic. His recount of why he killed the king was riveting. Not to mention how Bolton tricked him for as long as he could about Cersei!

Tywin continues his quest for father of the year. Loved how quickly he erased that smirk off Cersei's face!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Cersei may have screwed her brother, but Catelyn surely did screw her son!


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Things just keep getting worse for Robb.

Jaime becomes even more sympathetic.

And John, well he showed Ygritte that he did in fact know _something_. 

I loved Cersei's face when told she was to marry Loras. She obviously thought she was free from marriage for the rest of her life but then to be told she is to be wed to the underage homosexual Knight of Flowers and breed his children. Ouch!

Oh forgot one. Could someone say Lord Beric Dondarrion was only mostly dead?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> And John, well he showed Ygritte that he did in fact know _something_.


Apparently, it's not that he _knew _something. It's that he was pretty quick to figure it out.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

From her reaction (and what we know about life in that place), you can also add that this is something you don't expect men to do. So the surprise of it was part of the...well...surprise!

The Lord of Light is turning out to be pretty powerful indeed. Given that he lives in fire and Dany's dragons breath the stuff, it should be a very interesting clash when it does happen.

Robb should have beheaded his mother, eh? I hope he stays around long enough for Arya to reach him. They made it sound like some negotiation about her ransom was made; but then they never showed a scene where Robb and Cat were happy or waiting for her.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Robb should have beheaded his mother, eh? I hope he stays around long enough for Arya to reach him. They made it sound like some negotiation about her ransom was made; but then they never showed a scene where Robb and Cat were happy or waiting for her.


They know he is in Riverrun and were leaving to go there next day. They would give Arya to Robb in return for a "donation". We will see if she ever makes it that far, with this show there is always something that can happen to get them on a side quest.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Robb should have beheaded his mother, eh?


Basically, yes. That's what I meant when I said she screwed him...by letting Jaime go, she put him in the position of either executing Mom, or allowing a precedent for treason going unpunished. Regardless of the terrible decisions he's made since then (especially, marrying whatshername), that's the one thing that he couldn't really come back from...unless he executed her. Which, of course, he was never going to do. So then he was in the position of either executing Karstark (and losing half his army), or further weakening his authority (and possibly losing his ENTIRE army). And now he has to go to the petty little man that he screwed over by marrying whatshername, and beg him for help.

Thus, screwed.

(It amusing me that "whatshername" is in the BB spell-check!)


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I need to watch the show again tonight. How did Tywin learn of the Sansa/Loras plans?

And did I mention how much I loved it when the tables turned on Cersei? she was having such a great time with Tyrion's misery!


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I need to watch the show again tonight. How did Tywin learn of the Sansa/Loras plans?
> 
> And did I mention how much I loved it when the tables turned on Cersei? she was having such a great time with Tyrion's misery!


Tywin found out from Cersei. Cersei found out from Littlefinger, who found out from the guy who gave Loras the little finger.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Dagnabbit! Now I like Jaimie Lannister although I find it hard to believe that he kept his reason for killing the Mad King a secret for so long. Are they going to make me like Joffrey next by explaining that he's such a sh1t because Cercei wouldn't let him have Count Chocula every morning for breakfast?

It looked like Dany was going to cry when Rat Dick (or whatever his name was) explained why he preferred his slave name.

Robb should have forced his mom to marry Karstark. Just kidding.

So who did Jaimie and Brienne get turned over to? I swear, every week there's another group of scraggly, dirty white guys wearing black on this show.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> So who did Jaimie and Brienne get turned over to? I swear, every week there's another group of scraggly, dirty white guys wearing black on this show.


Roose Bolton at Harrenhal


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

His name was "Grey Worm". Not that I would be surprised if one of them was named Rat Dick.

I thought the guy Jamie was turned over to was called "Lord Bolton" at some point.

I made the same comment to my wife as the poster above: "I guess Jon Snow did know SOMETHING".


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> So who did Jaimie and Brienne get turned over to? I swear, every week there's another group of scraggly, dirty white guys wearing black on this show.


They called him Lord Bolton. I think he's the one who offered to have his bastard go get Winterfell back from Theon. Speaking of which, thank goodness we didn't have to see any of him this week.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robb attacking Castle Rock seems as desperate as Leon attacking Winterfell. What is to be gained? It's not like the Lannisters would give up the war in order to get their house back.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Oh well. Where to start. (I say that every week don't I?)

Okay now I'm really mad about Tyrion. Why won't someone just stab Tywin in the face already!? Hard to believe after last season there would be someone I wanted dead quicker than Joffrey. So Tyrion is just going to be force to marry a CHILD? I mean she just started to you know...... ugh. How old is Tyrion supposed to be?? That's just gross. No. And now I see why we had the scene with Shae and him discussing Sansa's looks. I see the writing on the wall with that one. UGH. Do not want.

Although I did very much love watching Cercei be so smug and condescending to Tyrion only to get slapped with the same. I don't see why they don't both just tell him to get bent. What would happen? I mean he's one person. Just give the old man a beat down and be done with it. heh

Jon Snow. Well. That cave must have been a dramatic difference in temperature. And if that's true, why wasn't more of them in there keeping warm?

This was badass


Spoiler














And I loved The Hound's face right after. I think he even took a step back like "oh crap". Poor Arya back to naming off the ones she wants dead. And asking about bringing her father back was just sad.

And I'm not sure how much bare arse we saw but it was more than a couple right? Ygritte, Brienne, Jon, Jaime, Loras, his squire..... is that it? 
On a mighty superficial note, I have to say I quite enjoyed both Jaime and the squire shots. 

And wow was the story about the mad King Jaime told true!?! If so then he's gotten this horrible reputation for nothing. He's a hero not a traitor. Well he WAS until he shoved a child to his supposed death and other things we saw after. But yeah back then... Also I continue to feel for him.

I did not at all get wtf was going on with Stanis and his wife? and child? What's wrong with her face? I feel like I should know this but I'm drawing a blank. And his wife is uh... off. That entire thing creeped me out. I did think it was sweet his daughter went to see Davos to give him books.

The only thing I have to say about Dany this week is Jorah. Sigh.


Spoiler





















Sigh. I guess we have to talk about Robb now. He's losing it. Fast. So because he didn't kill him mother for treason he pretty much HAD to make an example out of Karstark right? I mean even though Cat and Talisa gave logical reasons for to not do so I knew he would. If not he's a joke of a King. And he's too much like Ned. Unfortunately now he's got to go to Frey and that's making me SUPER nervous. "hey Walder, sorry about going back on my word of marrying your daughter but can ya help a guy out anyhow?" I mean what does he have to offer now? He's going to lose this war. There's no way around it. Ugh.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> What's wrong with her face? I feel like I should know this but I'm drawing a blank..


They haven't mentioned it before, I don't think. I'll put the explanation in spoiler tags since it hasn't been mentioned before although it isn't a big deal.



Spoiler



It's called greyscale. From one of the wikis:
Greyscale is a disease that can leave flesh stiff and dead and the skin cracked and flaking, mottled black and grey and stone-like to the touch. The tongue and lips turn to stone.[1] It generally affects children especially in cold damp climates. The victims are disfigured but could not be touched by the rarer mortal form of the affliction or the grey plague. The wildlings consider people who survive Greyscale unclean.


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Robb attacking Castle Rock seems as desperate as Leon attacking Winterfell. What is to be gained? It's not like the Lannisters would give up the war in order to get their house back.


I wondered if that's where they keep all of their gold.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

I too am becoming more sympathetic for Jaime. However, as someone pointed out in a previous episode thread, he is the guy who started a continent-spanning civil war by pushing a kid out a window...

I expected more from Tyrion's meeting with the Tyrell matriarch. He seemed outwitted by her. Tyrion isn't yet living up to my expectations as master of coin. (yet)

I wish Littlefinger would just get on that boat be gone already. 

I expect that by the time Arya reaches Riverrun, that Robb will already be at either the Frey or on march to Casaterly Rock. It just feels like she's not fated to meet back up with him and will continue these side quests with interesting people (last season a faceless man, this season a man who can't die). 

Attacking Casterly Rock isn't a brilliant move, but it's really the only move Robb has left. Maybe he can get lucky and something will turn to his favor. 

I miss the Theon story. I still want to figure out what's going on this. I also miss his sister, who I figured would have a bigger role this season.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

smbaker said:


> I expected more from Tyrion's meeting with the Tyrell matriarch. He seemed outwitted by her. Tyrion isn't yet living up to my expectations as master of coin. (yet)


I think he was surprised as well!


Spoiler


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Cersei may have screwed her brother, but Catelyn surely did screw her son!


And he compounds his mother's poor decisions with his own even worser decisions. Marrying that girl doomed his revolt, as (I think) Karstark said a couple eps ago. And then executing Karstark seemed even dumberer. Why not hold him hostage? Any downside to it? At least the Karstark army would remain with him.



Anubys said:


> Robb should have beheaded his mother, eh? I hope he stays around long enough for Arya to reach him. They made it sound like some negotiation about her ransom was made; but then they never showed a scene where Robb and Cat were happy or waiting for her.


I think the Brotherhood just assumes there will be a reward for returning the sister of the King of the North.



photoshopgrl said:


> On a mighty superficial note, I have to say I quite enjoyed both Jaime and the squire shots.


Well, if we're going to be superficial, I quite enjoyed both Ygritte and Brienne.

BTW, do we think that was really Gwendoline Christie? The... ahem, rear view we were given seemed nicer than the _lumpiness _that Brienne always projects on-screen.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Sigh. I guess we have to talk about Robb now. He's losing it. Fast... He's going to lose this war. There's no way around it. Ugh.


I don't know what anybody else thinks but I hope the hot chick with the dragons and the disciplined, well tailored army kicks everybody's asses. I bet that army has an awesome marching band.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> And I loved The Hound's face right after. I think he even took a step back like "oh crap".


Don't forget that he is deathly afraid of fire. So much so that he ran away from the battle at King's Landing rather than face it.

Considering which, he did surprisingly well against a guy fighting with a frikkin' FLAMING SWORD!

(And then the two guys overseas rolling their eyes at flaming-sword-guy. )


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

smbaker said:


> Attacking Casterly Rock isn't a brilliant move, but it's really the only move Robb has left. Maybe he can get lucky and something will turn to his favor.


So Robb is going to do to the Lannisters the same thing that Theon did to him?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> So Robb is going to do to the Lannisters the same thing that Theon did to him?


One hopes with a little more class...

But yes, that's the general idea. And unlike Theon he should have a big enough army (even without the Karstarks) to hold it once he has it. It would be a MASSIVE humiliation to Tywin if Robb can pull it off.


astrohip said:


> And he compounds his mother's poor decisions with his own even worser decisions. Marrying that girl doomed his revolt, as (I think) Karstark said a couple eps ago. And then executing Karstark seemed even dumberer. Why not hold him hostage? Any downside to it? At least the Karstark army would remain with him.


I think he could have gotten away with marrying the girl if it hadn't been for Mommy Dearest. He already had what he needed from Frey (passage); sure, he'd made a very powerful enemy, but that would have been a problem for the future. Say, at a time when he needed something from Frey. Oh, look!

What not executing Karstark would have done was completely wipe away any discipline among his followers. Two examples of people getting away with treason. Of course, saying treason's OK as long as you're my Moms isn't much better. I think everything could have been fixed if Cat hadn't "freed" Jaime. But that was the problem that made it impossible for Robb to deal with the problems that have come up since then (and yes, some of them of his own making).


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Robb attacking Castle Rock seems as desperate as Leon attacking Winterfell. What is to be gained? It's not like the Lannisters would give up the war in order to get their house back.


But they're unlikely to calmly let someone else occupy it (even if that might be the militarily smart thing to do).

And unlike Theon, Robb's bringing enough men to fight. So hopefully he forces the Lannisters to send part of their army (can't exactly leave King's Landing uncovered) to avenge this insult. Which lets Robb fight a defensive battle from behind Castile Rock's defenses, giving him a chance to whittle down the Lannister forces superior numbers.

Of course some counter moves could be to ignore him and strike north (on the theory that his men will abandon him if you start sacking their undefended homesteads), or simply use enough forces to seal him in and settle down to consolidating your rule of the country (now that the only effective opposition in trapped and unable to intervene).


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

For people who don't bathe a lot, there were a lot of smooth legs and butts.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

What the heck was up with the dead babies in the jars? Now THAT was unexpected.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Shaunnick said:


> For people who don't bathe a lot, there were a lot of smooth legs and butts.


Its the great loufa.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

cheesesteak said:


> What the heck was up with the dead babies in the jars? Now THAT was unexpected.


Pickled baby! Guess GOT doesn't have cremation urns.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> So Robb is going to do to the Lannisters the same thing that Theon did to him?


Yes, but where Theon had about a dozen guys and no practical ability to hold Winterfell, Robb will have thousands or tens of thousands of troops and can hold and fortify Casterly Rock.

Considering that the Lannisters are wealthy, I have to wonder if there's some wealth at Casterly Rock that Robb can exploit.

ETA: Come to think of it, this might be a really smart move. The Lannisters rule through their wealth. How many Lannister allies could be "bought" by Robb if he manages to control that wealth? The point was made a few eps ago that King's landing is broke and borrowing money (presumably from the Lannisters). So Tywin controls a bankrupt kingdom while Robb controls the bank. This could also make Tyrion's position more important if money pressures do start to affect King's Landing.

"A Lannister always pays his debts" .... with what? borrowed money?



Cheesesteak said:


> What the heck was up with the dead babies in the jars? Now THAT was unexpected.


I believe they had previously mentioned Stannis' wife's inability to provide an heir. While the visual itself I found unexpected, it was consistent with what I expected. Her loyalty to the Lord of Light and acceptance of Stannis' affair was a surprise to me though.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

astrohip said:


> ...Well, if we're going to be superficial, I quite enjoyed both Ygritte and Brienne.
> 
> BTW, do we think that was really Gwendoline Christie? The... ahem, rear view we were given seemed nicer than the _lumpiness _that Brienne always projects on-screen.


I'm thinking is was the real rears. They would have had quite a search finding another 6' 4" blonde to do Brienne.

I also thought, "You know something Jon Snow."

At least once Cersi married Loras, she won't have to make a special effort again to avoid having _his_ kid.

Tywin: "Put to rest all of these rumors..." You think _he_ doesn't believe that Jeffy is an incest bastard?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> For people who don't bathe a lot, there were a lot of smooth legs and butts.





Ment said:


> Its the great loufa.


Not to mention sexy underwear. Gotta be prepared, ya know.

Greg


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

Why does Cersi have to marry Loras? If Joffrey is marrying Margaery that joins the two families. Isn't Loras Margaery's sister and since Cersi is Joffrey's mother then Cersi marring Loras joins the same two families. Does it accomplish something else?

Gerry


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I got another laff when I noticed that some actors like Littlefinger, Jorah and Stannis get to keep their modern haircuts...and neatly-trimmed beards.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Gerryex said:


> Why does Cersi have to marry Loras? If Joffrey is marrying Margaery that joins the two families. Isn't Loras Margaery's sister and since Cersi is Joffrey's mother then Cersi marring Loras joins the same two families. Does it accomplish something else?
> 
> Gerry


Its to take Loras out of the equation of marrying Sansa who stands to be the heir to House Stark/The North. The joining would make House Tyrell too powerful.


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## stark (Dec 31, 2003)

If Loras and Cersi would have children, it would also make another Lannister grandchild the Lord of the Tyrell family.


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

Ment said:


> Its to take Loras out of the equation of marrying Sansa who stands to be the heir to House Stark/The North. The joining would make House Tyrell too powerful.





stark said:


> If Loras and Cersi would have children, it would also make another Lannister grandchild the Lord of the Tyrell family.


Ah, thanks! GOT is a great show but very confusing at times (well actually most of the time!).

Gerry


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Gerryex said:


> Why does Cersi have to marry Loras? If Joffrey is marrying Margaery that joins the two families. Isn't Loras Margaery's sister and since Cersi is Joffrey's mother then Cersi marring Loras joins the same two families. Does it accomplish something else?
> 
> Gerry


Margery will be producing the heir for a Baratheon and a throne. It would be an heir for a Lannister also, but remember that Joffrey will always be a Baratheon first as will his heirs.

Cersei will not only produce an heir for the Tyrells, but the future lord of the Tyrells. The Tyrells are a very powerful family so locking them down to the Lannisters means the Lannisters have more influence with them. It also takes away the influence the Tyrells would have had over the North and instead gives it to the Lannisters. So with three marriages The Lannisters control the North, The Reach of Highgarden, and the Storm Lands of the Baratheons. Oh, a and little piece of land called Casterly Rock.

Tywin also believes that he has Littlefinger under his control so that gives him power over the Vale. And I can bet you (this is non book knowledge but my own speculation) that because Tywin is set on Jaime being his heir he also means to wed Jaime to someone. A Dornish princess perhaps?

Tywin is one sharp leader.


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> Margery will be producing the heir for a Baratheon and a throne. It would be an heir for a Lannister also, but remember that Joffrey will always be a Baratheon first as will his heirs.
> . . .


Thanks to you also!

Gerry


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

So Cersei is going to be Margaery's mother-in-law and sister-in-law.   

We are back to that being your own grandpa thing again.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Jstkiddn said:


> So Cersei is going to be Margaery's mother-in-law and sister-in-law.
> 
> We are back to that being your own grandpa thing again.


Well that part doesn't phase her, its the anyone but Jaime part that gives her pause.  Might be good for her tho, her new husband won't be clamoring for her attentions aside from producing an heir, and if Jaime comes back everything can be on the DL again without arising so much suspicion.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Anubys said:


> The Lord of Light is turning out to be pretty powerful indeed. Given that he lives in fire and Dany's dragons breath the stuff, it should be a very interesting clash when it does happen.


Or will they be on the same team? It's so hard to figure out which religion is the good guys in this world. The Red Woman doesn't seem nearly as "good" as the priest does, but the Lord of Light seems to answer both of their prayers. 



Anubys said:


> I need to watch the show again tonight. How did Tywin learn of the Sansa/Loras plans?


I love how Littlefinger operates. He wants to kill the engagement, he gets the info, and then he passes it on so that his fingerprints are nowhere near it. 



cheesesteak said:


> Dagnabbit! Now I like Jaimie Lannister although I find it hard to believe that he kept his reason for killing the Mad King a secret for so long.


I guess all the witnesses are dead, and communications being what they are, he can't just post it on his facebook page. I wonder if he tried to tell his dad, who probably didn't believe him, or Cercei?



astrohip said:


> And then executing Karstark seemed even dumberer. Why not hold him hostage? Any downside to it? At least the Karstark army would remain with him.


If he's holding their Lord, they might just revolt or try to free him and destroy the whole camp in the process. Not good if a big chunk of your army may not be on your side.



cheesesteak said:


> So Robb is going to do to the Lannisters the same thing that Theon did to him?


But Rob is at war with the Lannisters--Theon was his ally, supposedly.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I guess all the witnesses are dead, and communications being what they are, he can't just post it on his facebook page. I wonder if he tried to tell his dad, who probably didn't believe him, or Cercei?


His fathers army was sacking the city. That means he was a traitor too. Killing the Mad King puts Jamie and Tywin on the same side. Tywin has no reason to even care why Jamie did it, as long as the deed is done.

Tywin never wanted Jamie to wear that white cloak in the first place.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ment said:


> Well that part doesn't phase her, its the anyone but Jaime part that gives her pause.  Might be good for her tho, her new husband won't be clamoring for her attentions aside from producing an heir, and if Jaime comes back everything can be on the DL again without arising so much suspicion.


Except that eventually Loras and his wife should go back to Highgarden, far away from Kings Landing.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

stellie93 said:


> It's so hard to figure out which religion is the good guys in this world.


Ditto for the real world.


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## Mr. Merkin (May 6, 2005)

"Now I like Jaimie Lannister although I find it hard to believe that he kept his reason for killing the Mad King a secret for so long."

I didn't understand this part at all. In previous exchanges it was widely disclosed that the Mad King had gone crazy and was burning and executing people arbitrarily. Why would Ned be judging Jaime, the Mad King already had killed Ned's father and brother. This part left me confused, it's not like Jaime went to jail because nobody knew why he did what he did. Did I miss something?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Mr. Merkin said:


> "Now I like Jaimie Lannister although I find it hard to believe that he kept his reason for killing the Mad King a secret for so long."
> 
> I didn't understand this part at all. In previous exchanges it was widely disclosed that the Mad King had gone crazy and was burning and executing people arbitrarily. Why would Ned be judging Jaime, the Mad King already had killed Ned's father and brother. This part left me confused, it's not like Jaime went to jail because nobody knew why he did what he did. Did I miss something?


Because Jaime was part of the Kingsguard, which means that he had foresworn marriage and his House to be a permanent bodyguard for the King and had vowed to give up his life for the King if need be. For someone like Ned Stark, for whom honor is everything, breaking that vow to protect the King with your life and then stabbing that King literally in the back - no matter how crazy that King was - is unacceptable and would make you forever suspect in his eyes. Now, maybe Jaime misread Ned, but I don't think so. He knew that Ned would always look down on him for breaking that oath.

It's no coincidence that the show contrasted Jaime's story with that of Barristan Selmy, who was also part of the Kingsguard. Selmy told Jorah that he served under terrible kings his entire life and was looking forward to serving one that he believed in. For Selmy, it seems, killing the King and breaking his sworn oath was never a consideration.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I loved his "my name is Jaime!"


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Mr. Merkin said:


> I didn't understand this part at all. In previous exchanges it was widely disclosed that the Mad King had gone crazy and was burning and executing people arbitrarily. Why would Ned be judging Jaime, the Mad King already had killed Ned's father and brother. This part left me confused, it's not like Jaime went to jail because nobody knew why he did what he did. Did I miss something?


Ned is a stickler for the rules. Take as an example his insistence on handing the kingdom over to Stannis. Had that happened, things would be at least as bad as when the mad king was in charge. Littlefinger advised Ned to name Renli as king instead, a much wiser move*, but a violation of the absolute law that Ned chose to apply.

I really liked Ned Stark in S1 and couldn't believe it when he was killed. Looking back now though, Ned was kind of an idiot.

* probably would have ended up with Ned dead, Renli dead, and Littlefinger in charge in the end. Still not a bad outcome all things considered.

ETA: While vacuuming, I made a mental list of Ned Starkisms:

1) Tipped off Cersei that he knew Joffrey wasn't the heir and that she had an affair.

2) Failed to tell Robert Barathian on his death bed of Cersei's betrayal, allowing the kingdom to pass to a child he knew was illegitimate, son of a woman who hates him.

3) Decided the only rightful heir was a lunatic who burns people alive, after the Kingdom had just been liberated from the previous lunatic who burned people alive.

4) Used money to buy loyalty without realizing his rivals have far more money

5) Put Littlefinger in a position to protect his life, without realizing the numerous obvious signs that Littlefinger was hot for his wife.

6) Confessed to a crime he didn't commit,

Did I miss anything important?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

jehma said:


> I loved his "my name is Jaime!"


Did anyone else wish she would have taken a brief moment and dunked his head under the water just long enough to wash some of that gunk off his face and out of his hair and beard?


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Did anyone else wish she would have taken a brief moment and dunked his head under the water just long enough to wash some of that gunk off his face and out of his hair and beard?


OMG, yes!


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I gotta say, I did not get Tyrion's joke at the end 'til I saw it a second time. It was pretty funny.

And the actor who plays Tywin is truly amazing. He scares the heck out of me! And I don't scare that easily


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Because Jaime was part of the Kingsguard, which means that he had foresworn marriage and his House to be a permanent bodyguard for the King and had vowed to give up his life for the King if need be. For someone like Ned Stark, for whom honor is everything, breaking that vow to protect the King with your life and then stabbing that King literally in the back - no matter how crazy that King was - is unacceptable and would make you forever suspect in his eyes. Now, maybe Jaime misread Ned, but I don't think so. He knew that Ned would always look down on him for breaking that oath.
> 
> It's no coincidence that the show contrasted Jaime's story with that of Barristan Selmy, who was also part of the Kingsguard. Selmy told Jorah that he served under terrible kings his entire life and was looking forward to serving one that he believed in. For Selmy, it seems, killing the King and breaking his sworn oath was never a consideration.


This is exactly it. Add to it the one tiny detail that he also killed the king from behind. A cowardly thing in Ned's eyes.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Details...details...

So Lady Oleena tells Tyrion that figs help her with constipation. Recall that Tyrion suffered from that in season 2 and Maester Tyrcell gave him something for it. So it was a nice touch to have Tyrion grab a fig from Pod as soon as Oleena left 



Question: Just before he is set free, the Hound argues with the Brotherhood about not getting his gold (they gave him an IOU). What gold is he talking about?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Just the gold he had been carrying while traveling. It was not likely to be much, but it still feel like someone taking your last $20 when there was nothing to your name.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Details...details...
> 
> So Lady Oleena tells Tyrion that figs help her with constipation. Recall that Tyrion suffered from that in season 2 and Maester Tyrcell gave him something for it. So it was a nice touch to have Tyrion grab a fig from Pod as soon as Oleena left


How the heck do people remember stuff like this?


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Because Jaime was part of the Kingsguard, which means that he had foresworn marriage and his House to be a permanent bodyguard for the King and had vowed to give up his life for the King if need be. For someone like Ned Stark, for whom honor is everything, breaking that vow to protect the King with your life and then stabbing that King literally in the back - no matter how crazy that King was - is unacceptable and would make you forever suspect in his eyes. Now, maybe Jaime misread Ned, but I don't think so. He knew that Ned would always look down on him for breaking that oath.
> 
> It's no coincidence that the show contrasted Jaime's story with that of Barristan Selmy, who was also part of the Kingsguard. Selmy told Jorah that he served under terrible kings his entire life and was looking forward to serving one that he believed in. For Selmy, it seems, killing the King and breaking his sworn oath was never a consideration.


Thanks, I was gonna write all this and you saved me the time.


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## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

Anubys said:


> Details...details...
> 
> So Lady Oleena tells Tyrion that figs help her with constipation. Recall that Tyrion suffered from that in season 2 and Maester Tyrcell gave him something for it. So it was a nice touch to have Tyrion grab a fig from Pod as soon as Oleena left


I don't think Tyrion was actually suffering from constipation when he visited Pycelle last season. He went to Pycelle's room using his "medical condition" as an excuse, so that he could confide in Pycelle and Pycelle would not suspect anything.

He actually went to Pycelle's room to flush out his sister's spy by telling Pycell and only Pycell Myrcella was to be married to House Martell. He told Varys he was marrying Myrcella to Theon and he told Littlefinger it was Robyn Arryn. He caught Pycelle in his lie when Cersie came back to him ranting about Myrcella being shipped off to Martell. That's when Tyrion sent Pycelle down to the dungeons and why they loathe each other now.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

smbaker said:


> I too am becoming more sympathetic for Jaime. However, as someone pointed out in a previous episode thread, he is the guy who started a continent-spanning civil war by pushing a kid out a window...


Pushing the child out the window didn't start the civil war. It was but one event on the path to the inevitable that began when Cersei gave birth to Joffrey. Then Jon Arryn discovered it. Then Jon Arryn was killed. Then Robert chose Ned as his Hand, etc. etc.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

grey ghost said:


> I don't think Tyrion was actually suffering from constipation when he visited Pycelle last season. He went to Pycelle's room using his "medical condition" as an excuse, so that he could confide in Pycelle and Pycelle would not suspect anything.
> 
> He actually went to Pycelle's room to flush out his sister's spy by telling Pycell and only Pycell Myrcella was to be married to House Martell. He told Varys he was marrying Myrcella to Theon and he told Littlefinger it was Robyn Arryn. He caught Pycelle in his lie when Cersie came back to him ranting about Myrcella being shipped off to Martell. That's when Tyrion sent Pycelle down to the dungeons and why they loathe each other now.


There is no reason why he couldn't be both (constipated and out to find the mole). IIRC, those were 2 different scenes. And it's not like he made up an excuse to meet with LittleFinger or Varys!


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I can't remember the exact quote or the exact circumstances, but he said something along the lines of not having "a good sh*& in days"


ETA: I found it I think. It was in the episode "What is Dead May Never Die" and the quote was ""Oh, thank the gods! I haven't had a proper sh** in six days!"


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Did anyone else wish she would have taken a brief moment and dunked his head under the water just long enough to wash some of that gunk off his face and out of his hair and beard?


Yes, but I also liked how he was down to his lowest point when he finally insisted on his identity apart from "Kingslayer".



gossamer88 said:


> I gotta say, I did not get Tyrion's joke at the end 'til I saw it a second time. It was pretty funny.
> 
> And the actor who plays Tywin is truly amazing. He scares the heck out of me! And I don't scare that easily


What was the joke? I don't remember. I agree about Tywin. He's one of the best actors in the show.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

JETarpon said:


> Pushing the child out the window didn't start the civil war. It was but one event on the path to the inevitable that began when Cersei gave birth to Joffrey. Then Jon Arryn discovered it. Then Jon Arryn was killed. Then Robert chose Ned as his Hand, etc. etc.


I guess you can akin to the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand as one of the causes to the Great War (WWI).


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

jehma said:


> What was the joke? I don't remember. I agree about Tywin. He's one of the best actors in the show.


It was about Loras' sexuality. I don't remember it exactly though.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

dtle said:


> I guess you can akin to the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand as one of the causes to the Great War (WWI).


A lot of the events in GoT can parallel back to events in world history.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

In particular, the War of the Roses, though with more dragons.


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

Ereth said:


> In particular, the War of the Roses, though with more dragons.


Just a few more. Hardly enough for a mention.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

gossamer88 said:


> It was about Loras' sexuality. I don't remember it exactly though.


Was it this:
Shes a lovely girl. Missing some of Ser Loras favorite bits, but Im sure theyll make do.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

This was discussed in last week's thread, but comes to mind with the discussion of Ned's feelings towards Jamie based on Jamie breaking his oath, regardless of whether he was justified. It seems to me that, strictly from the events in the TV show, it can be argued that Ned would never break an oath, regardless of the justification, but _is_ willing to lie if the justification is sufficient (e.g. to spare his daughters from seeing him killed). Taking this a step further, a pretty compelling argument can be made that Ned would never break his vow to Catelyn but, under the right circumstances (i.e., sufficient justification), _would_ lie about being Jon's father. Thus, Ned is not Jon's father but has reason to lie about it that we have not been made privy to. Pure speculation, but that's where I stand on that issue, at least for now.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

moved


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Interesting theory.
> 
> (spoilerized because I mention the book)


Even spoilered, this post is totally inappropriate for this thread. You should at least have worded it as I did in the modified quote above.

I'll respond in the show and book thread.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JETarpon said:


> Even spoilered, this post is totally inappropriate for this thread. [/url]


So don't quote it!


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> So who did Jaimie and Brienne get turned over to? I swear, every week there's another group of scraggly, dirty white guys wearing black on this show.


That is my biggest problem with this show, too many damn people who all look similar. The only way to know whats going on is to come hear and read the episode thread. :up:


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

He took out one word. But next time he comes through this thread maybe he can delete the quote.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

I just love that Cersei has lost so much power with the arrival of Tywin


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> Was it this:
> Shes a lovely girl. Missing some of Ser Loras favorite bits, but Im sure theyll make do.


I believe that's it...thanks!


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

grey ghost said:


> I don't think Tyrion was actually suffering from constipation when he visited Pycelle last season. He went to Pycelle's room using his "medical condition" as an excuse, so that he could confide in Pycelle and Pycelle would not suspect anything.


I think Pycelle went off to get him something for the problem, and Tyrion stole a drug from his place--which he used to keep Cercei out of the way while he sent Marcella to Dorn and Pycelle to the dungeon. But I could be thinking about another time.



smbaker said:


> 3) Decided the only rightful heir was a lunatic who burns people alive, after the Kingdom had just been liberated from the previous lunatic who burned people alive.


I always thought that Stannis had just recently taken up with the Red Lady--after Robert died and he needed to raise an army and become king. Before that I don't think he was that bad of a guy. At least not in Targarian tradition. He doesn't enjoy burning people alive. Davos seems devoted to him, and he's a pretty good guy. I figured he turned to her in desperation, and Ned would have known nothing about that.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I always thought that Stannis had just recently taken up with the Red Lady--after Robert died and he needed to raise an army and become king. Before that I don't think he was that bad of a guy.


It's been a while so I can't be sure, but I thought Littlefinger mentioned to Ned Stark something about Stannis' zealotry and that he would be unsuitable as a king. I don't see any mention of it in the episode guide, so maybe I'm remembering it wrong.

Anyhow, with the babies in jars in the Stannis camp, it's clear that something has been amiss there for a while.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Why do the opening credits still show Winterfell? The show hasn't been there in a long time.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

dtivouser said:


> Why do the opening credits still show Winterfell? The show hasn't been there in a long time.


Because the Starks are the central family to the story, and Winterfell is their familial home. I've not read the books, but I still expect Winterfell to play a large part in the ongoing story, whereas other cities that once appeared and don't appear any longer (Pyke, Dragonstone, Qarth, etc.) don't seem like they're going to be part of the ongoing story.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

smbaker said:


> I too am becoming more sympathetic for Jaime. However, as someone pointed out in a previous episode thread, he is the guy who started a continent-spanning civil war by pushing a kid out a window...


I don't agree with this. That had very little effect on the war. Yes, Caitlin kidnapped Tyrion because of it but even that didn't get it done.

IMO it is Joffrey who is most directly responsible for the war, by beheading Ned Stark. Up until that point things were just tense, and could possibly have been salvaged without open war. Most likely by holding Ned hostage against action by Winterfell.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Both Stannis and Renly were planning war after Robert died. Ned was planning to back Renly Stannis. Jeoffrey brought Winterfell and Riverun into it by beheading Ned.

Of Ned had somehow gotten out of Kings Landing (his stubbornness makes it unlikely), maybe Winterfell would be backing Renly Stannis.

The drama with Jaime throwing Bran out the window _probably_ wouldn't have led to a war, especially if Robert had had lived longer.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

robojerk said:


> ...The drama with Jaime throwing Bran out the window _probably_ wouldn't have led to a war, especially if Robert had had lived longer.


Interesting thought. You think if Ned had told King Robert that Jamie pushed Bran...and that was because he was boinking Cersie...he would have had Jamie (and Cersie) executed?

I'd bet that he would still suck it up because he owed so much to the Lannisters.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

smbaker said:


> It's been a while so I can't be sure, but I thought Littlefinger mentioned to Ned Stark something about Stannis' zealotry and that he would be unsuitable as a king. I don't see any mention of it in the episode guide, so maybe I'm remembering it wrong.
> 
> Anyhow, with the babies in jars in the Stannis camp, it's clear that something has been amiss there for a while.


Stannis is very rigid in his beliefs and moral code, even if you leave his dalliance with Mellisandre/The Lord of Light aside. Take his treatment of Davos:


Spoiler



during Robert's Rebellion, Davos was a smuggler who saved the lives of Stannis and his men who were under siege in Storm's End by sneaking past the naval blockade and bringing food to Stannis' forces. After the war was over, Stannis repaid his bravery by knighting him and giving him land, but also cut off the first knuckle of each finger on his left hand as punishment for being a smuggler.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

robojerk said:


> Both Stannis and Renly were planning war after Robert died. Ned was planning to back Renly. Jeoffrey brought Winterfell and Riverun into it by beheading Ned.
> 
> Of Ned had somehow gotten out of Kings Landing (his stubbornness makes it unlikely), maybe Winterfell would be backing Renly.


Ned would have supported Stannis, not Renly.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> I think Pycelle went off to get him something for the problem, and Tyrion stole a drug from his place--which he used to keep Cercei out of the way while he sent Marcella to Dorn and Pycelle to the dungeon. But I could be thinking about another time.


I don't recall any of this. Maybe it happened in the book that way, but it did not happen on the show. In fact, Cersei was present as Marcella was shipped off to Dorn. That is when Cersei promised Tyrion that she will one day find what he loves the most and take it away from him (so he would know how she felt).

Pycell was taken away while with a whore. Something that could have been done at any time. No need for Cersei to be asleep as she would have been in a totally different part of the palace.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

dtivouser said:


> Why do the opening credits still show Winterfell? The show hasn't been there in a long time.


Speaking of credits, (possible mild spoilers)


Spoiler



is it me or was the credits changed to include a new place that Dany will visit? It seems to skip over Astopor to the new place.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

dtle said:


> Speaking of credits, (possible mild spoilers)
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


No spoiler there. The opening credits flew over Astapor and highlighted Yunkai (I think) instead.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

netringer said:


> Interesting thought. You think if Ned had told King Robert that Jamie pushed Bran...and that was because he was boinking Cersie...he would have had Jamie (and Cersie) executed?


I think he would have had them banished and the marriage nullified.



robojerk said:


> The drama with Jaime throwing Bran out the window probably wouldn't have led to a war, especially if Robert had had lived longer.


The situation escalated when Tyrion was captured by Catelyn Stark as justice/retaliation for the the attempt on Bran's life. Had there been no pushing of Bran out the window, there would have been no attempt on Bran's life, no capture of Tyrion, no sword fight between Jaime and Ned, no escalation between Starks and Lannisters.

There's still the business of Joffrey being illegitimate. Would that have played out differently? Perhaps.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

netringer said:


> Interesting thought. You think if Ned had told King Robert that Jamie pushed Bran...and that was because he was boinking Cersie...he would have had Jamie (and Cersie) executed?
> 
> I'd bet that he would still suck it up because he owed so much to the Lannisters.





smbaker said:


> I think he would have had them banished and the marriage nullified.


Ned appeared to be concerned that Robert might have them executed, which is why he told Cersei what he knew.....to give her a chance to take her children and get the he** out of dodge before he told Robert. He was giving her a chance to save herself. Why would he give her a warning if not worried for her life and the life of her children? If annulment and banishment were going to be the outcome, I don't see why he would have felt the need to warn her.

What was the line someone said later? I can't remember if it was Ned or maybe Viserys, but it was something about Ned being in the position he was in (the dungeon) because he tried to save her and her children...trying to do the right thing by giving her a chance? That is a huge paraphrase, but it was something along those lines.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

heySkippy said:


> Ned would have supported Stannis, not Renly.


Fixed it.. I have a newborn at home, and posted just before bed.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

robojerk said:


> Fixed it.. I have a newborn at home, and posted just before bed.


You have a newborn and made it to bed? I didn't think that was possible!


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> You have a newborn and made it to bed? I didn't think that was possible!


He made it to bed. The wife, not so much.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Ned appeared to be concerned that Robert might have them executed, which is why he told Cersei what he knew.....to give her a chance to take her children and get the he** out of dodge before he told Robert. He was giving her a chance to save herself.


Yeahbut, remember that Robert had no qualms about giving in and ordering that the butcher boy be run down and killed as well as ordering Sansa's wolf to be killed just to shut up Cersei.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

That was kind of the point. Robert was a great warrior, but a lousy king. He hated the reality of being King, all the politics and so on. If you couldn't just smash it with a hammer, it was more complex than it needed to be.

The plot to get rid of Robert Baratheon was inevitable. It's just that everybody wanted to get the pieces into place so they'd benefit the most when it happened.


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## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

netringer said:


> Yeahbut, remember that Robert had no qualms about giving in and ordering that the butcher boy be run down and killed as well as ordering Sansa's wolf to be killed just to shut up Cersei.


Robert orders Sansa's direwolf killed when they couldn't find Arya's direwolf(who actually bit Joffrey_, BUT he DID NOT tell the Hound to murder the Butcher's Boy. That was done off-screen presumably by either Cersei or Joffrey.

Robert orders the direwolf killed.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Anubys said:


> I don't recall any of this. Maybe it happened in the book that way, but it did not happen on the show. In fact, Cersei was present as Marcella was shipped off to Dorn. That is when Cersei promised Tyrion that she will one day find what he loves the most and take it away from him (so he would know how she felt).
> 
> Pycell was taken away while with a whore. Something that could have been done at any time. No need for Cersei to be asleep as she would have been in a totally different part of the palace.


What I'm thinking of was Tyrion getting Cersei out of the way during a meeting of the small council so he could get this stuff in the works without her. By the time she recovered it would be too late. It may have been from the books--sorry--I guess I play the scenes in my head as I read, and then I think I saw them.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Another Game of Thrones Facebook Page for this episode.

There is a joke in there for the book readers. Not a spoiler, just a complaint some of the book readers had over in the other thread.

http://www.happyplace.com/23526/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-5


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