# Microsoft Sues TiVo!



## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/20/microsoft-has-atandts-back-sues-tivo-for-patent-infringement/


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I don't see much coming out of this. Microsoft's first patent would likely be invalidated by prior art. The second patent (if valid) might apply, but one would think Microsoft should be suing Amazon, BlockBuster, Disney, etc since that's where the purchasing is actually taking place. TiVo just handles the delivery.

Assuming the patents do stand, most likely both sides will just agree to cross-license (since it's likely Microsoft violates a number of TiVo patents) and that will be that.


----------



## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

morac said:


> Assuming the patents do stand, most likely both sides will just agree to cross-license (since it's likely Microsoft violates a number of TiVo patents) and that will be that.


That potential cross-license could get AT&T out from under the TiVo lawsuit. I suspect this is really all about that since the infringing code in AT&T uVerse is said to be Microsoft Mediaroom.


----------



## ldconfig (Sep 7, 2004)

I hope Tivo kicks their butt.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

CuriousMark said:


> That potential cross-license could get AT&T out from under the TiVo lawsuit. I suspect this is really all about that since the infringing code in AT&T uVerse is said to be Microsoft Mediaroom.


Yup, I'm confident that you're correct about that.


----------



## kevinwill1 (Apr 18, 2004)

Have any of you seen TiVo's response? I just saw this on MSNBC.com, so I thought I would share...

"Microsoft's recent legal actions, including its decision to seek to intervene on behalf of its customer, AT&T, and its recent complaint against TiVo in U.S. District Court, Northern District of California do not bear on whether the AT&T products and services that are the subject of TiVo's complaint infringe the patents asserted by TiVo. Rather these actions are part of a legal strategy to defend AT&T. We remain confident in our position that AT&T will be found to infringe on the TiVo patents asserted."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34953968


----------



## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

ldconfig said:


> I hope Tivo kicks their butt.


Microsoft and ATT have LOTS more patents than Tivo. I'm quite sure that they can find 1 that Tivo violates. This will eventually settle out in a cross-license deal.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

JohnBrowning said:


> Microsoft and ATT have LOTS more patents than Tivo. I'm quite sure that they can find 1 that Tivo violates. This will eventually settle out in a cross-license deal.


I doubt MS and ATT have many more DVR patents than TiVo does. In fact, this patent seems to deal with purchasing VOD.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

The patents at issue:

6,008,803
6,055,314


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

JohnBrowning said:


> Microsoft and ATT have LOTS more patents than Tivo. I'm quite sure that they can find 1 that Tivo violates. This will eventually settle out in a cross-license deal.


I could go for that if it meant new Tivos going forward worked as Microsoft Extenders for Media Center also lol.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> The patents at issue:
> 
> 6,008,803
> 6,055,314


Patent 6,008,803 looks like it could cover TiVo's "Browse by time" and/or "Browse by channel" menus. TiVo could probably eliminate that feature or implement it differently.

_Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer._


----------



## pmiranda (Feb 12, 2003)

I guess that's why there's been no effort to get TiVo working on Uverse... TiVo is actively fighting them :-(

TiVo desperately needs to fix the MRV with copy protected shows problem or they're dead with everyone gunning for them.


----------



## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

TiVo and AppleTV should make a deal just to tick off Microsoft even more. iTiVo will be all the rage and work seamlessly with your other 'iproducts'


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

from original link said:


> Want to hear some of the legal verbiage in question? "A system that displays programmable information and a secure method for buying and delivering video programs." It's vague and all-encompassing, and that's just how we like our patent kerfuffles


this will likely blow by or else all PPV would fall under that language. Bigger question is indeed what else Microsoft might do to help AT&T as it seems it now wnats to.


----------



## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

bkdtv said:


> The patents at issue:
> 
> 6,008,803
> 6,055,314


So screen presentation and organization of VOD offerings using "tiles" for the first one and download of video using a cable card for the other one.

I suppose the high def interface of TiVo search and the HME screens of Amazon and BlockBuster VOD might be covered by this first one, but it looks specific enough that simple re-arrangements would be enough to get around it.

Neither Amazon or Blockbuster VOD use a cablecard for decryption so it sounds to me like they are not covered by the second one. I suppose paid VOD from the cable company directly would be, but the TiVo doesn't do that, while the cable company cable box does. It sounsd like M/S is suing the wrong company.

Of course, I am not a lawyer and could be way wrong, but to my untrained eye TiVo probably does not have anything to worry about here.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

The patent refers to a specific method of addressing the need for copy protection.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

CuriousMark said:


> So screen presentation and organization of VOD offerings using "tiles" for the first one and download of video using a cable card for the other one.


Look at claims 22 and 24 (among others). That describes browse by time/channel.


----------



## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

bkdtv said:


> Look at claims 22 and 24 (among others). That describes browse by time/channel.


I didn't dive that deep, thanks for the pointer.


----------



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

rainwater said:


> I doubt MS and ATT have many more DVR patents than TiVo does. In fact, this patent seems to deal with purchasing VOD.


How do you figure?

Microsoft was developing a DVR at the same time Dish was (1998, DishPlayer) and while Microsoft didn't launch there's until after TiVo, they were still a key player in inventing the DVR.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> The patents at issue:
> 
> 6,008,803
> 6,055,314


6,055,314 requires using an integrated circuit card (smart card) to complete purchases. TiVo doesn't use that, TiVo uses web site authentication with passwords, so that patent shouldn't apply to TiVO.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> How do you figure?
> 
> Microsoft was developing a DVR at the same time Dish was (1998, DishPlayer) and while Microsoft didn't launch there's until after TiVo, they were still a key player in inventing the DVR.


Microsoft wasn't investing in DVR technology as early as some think. History is a bit misleading, because Microsoft was able to bring a product to market within a relatively short time by devoting substantial resources to the effort. That was after they knew what to do, and after they saw what features TiVo/Replay were going to offer.

Microsoft responded to the ReplayTV/Moxi demos at CES 1999 with a press release, but did not have functional DVR hardware to show. Microsoft shipped the Dishplayer in June 1999, but it lacked record capability. Timer-based record capability entered beta a few months after the hardware shipped, and was released to end users as a [buggy] software update in December, 1999. It took another 18 months for the software to stabilize.

Microsoft holds a number of DVR related patents, but virtually all were filed after May, 2002, or roughly four years after TiVo started filing patents.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> .... Bigger question is indeed what else Microsoft might do to help AT&T as it seems it now wnats to.


buy tivo


----------



## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

daveak said:


> TiVo and AppleTV should make a deal just to tick off Microsoft even more. iTiVo will be all the rage and work seamlessly with your other 'iproducts'


iTiVo  A product name for our times! It has to happen, regardless of what it actually is.


----------



## etvv (Dec 20, 2009)

Apparently so!


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> The patent refers to a specific method of addressing the need for copy protection.





morac said:


> 6,055,314 requires using an integrated circuit card (smart card) to complete purchases. TiVo doesn't use that, TiVo uses web site authentication with passwords, so that patent shouldn't apply to TiVO.


a method TiVo does not use for its IPTV stuff and that the FCC and cable companies mandate for digital broadcasts.

I still vote smokescreen and frivilous


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

You mean the lawsuit, right? Not the patent.... (My point was that the patent was not vague...)


----------



## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

rainwater said:


> I doubt MS and ATT have many more DVR patents than TiVo does. In fact, this patent seems to deal with purchasing VOD.


Perhaps not more DVR patents, but, lots more technology patents. I'm sure they can find SOMETHING Tivo violates if they want to. If you've never been in the middle of one of these scrums, you'd be amazed...


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> You mean the lawsuit, right? Not the patent.... (My point was that the patent was not vague...)


correct - lawsuit is smokescreen and frivilous
but I would not be surprised to see a cross settlement -fighting Microsoft over something frivilous to TiVo is not in TiVo incs. best interest.


----------



## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

All these lawsuits are stupid, a VCR did all this stuff years ago.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Not, actually, a VCR did not do "all this stuff years ago".


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> All these lawsuits are stupid, a VCR did all this stuff years ago.


really - you could download videos from the ineternet onto your VCR?


----------



## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> really - you could download videos from the ineternet onto your VCR?


From an IT person point of view "downloading" , could be from any type, whether it be a vcr cassette, dvd, usb stick. Downloading is the most incorrect used term these days. So technically it could be done to a dvd from a the internet , it would just be 2 steps.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

However, legal patents are applied differently than what is implied by that "point-of-view".


----------



## convergent (Jan 4, 2007)

Typical Microsoft ridiculousness. They are becoming more and more of a dinosaur under Ballmer. Instead of looking to open things up and plug everything in (something Tivo seems to be doing on this topic... Netflix, Blockbuster, Amazon, etc., with federated search to span all of them), they are trying to close things down and keep people from exploiting technology. Or, I guess they could be just trying to shake down Tivo for some money or access to technology. I really hate it when technology companies decide its more beneficial to sue everyone over something vague that they came up with, rather than continuing to innovate.


----------



## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

morac said:


> 6,055,314 requires using an integrated circuit card (smart card) to complete purchases. TiVo doesn't use that, TiVo uses web site authentication with passwords, so that patent shouldn't apply to TiVO.


Agreed,

Interestingly it probably does apply to Dish, DirecTV, Comcast, Cox, Time Warner, Verizon, RCN, etc, and etc.


----------



## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

CuriousMark said:


> Agreed,
> 
> Interestingly it probably does apply to Dish, DirecTV, Comcast, Cox, Time Warner, Verizon, RCN, etc, and etc.


I think its wrong too, i am all for home gateway.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Maybe I knew this before and have since forgot it, but I didn't realize MS did both Dish & DirecTV products.. I had to google (heh) to realize that "DishPlayer" *wasn't* just another name for UltimateTV, which is what I thought of when people were talking about MS & PVRs.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> From an IT person point of view "downloading" , could be from any type, whether it be a vcr cassette, dvd, usb stick. Downloading is the most incorrect used term these days. So technically it could be done to a dvd from a the internet , it would just be 2 steps.


well you are lecturing another IT person  and of course downloading is not narrowly defined but the context here is your claim that a DVR is not much different from a VCR of old - 
so could you with a VCR and internet connection download a movie to watch on the VCR? The hard drive and OS in the DVR allows for a definte levle of functionality beyond a VCR even if you ignore the lack of hassle over tape swapping and watching things while the device is recoding the show x minutes ahead of where you are watching.


----------



## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-20029406-75.html

Microsoft files ITC complaint to prevent importing and sales of TiVo STBs.

Related to this?

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2005-11/microsofts-stand-alone-dvr-drops/

A Microsoft Powered DVR? I know it's old, but maybe there is something up Microsoft's sleeve.

Oh Microsoft, leave my TiVo alone. If only as reliable as MC box, I would likely never own one.


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

rainwater said:


> In fact, this patent seems to deal with purchasing VOD.





Adam1115 said:


> How do you figure?
> 
> Microsoft was developing a DVR at the same time Dish was (1998, DishPlayer) and while Microsoft didn't launch there's until after TiVo, they were still a key player in inventing the DVR.


I can't speak to these patents or the suit, but do keep in mind that prior to DishPlayer launching, Microsoft did a bunch of work on interactive TV. http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/mbj/papers/mitv/tr-97-18.html is a paper on it.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JohnBrowning said:


> Microsoft and ATT have LOTS more patents than Tivo. I'm quite sure that they can find 1 that Tivo violates. This will eventually settle out in a cross-license deal.


Microsoft obviously did a search of patents they can hang over TiVo and looks like they only found these two weak ones.


----------



## jayn_j (Oct 29, 2010)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Microsoft obviously did a search of patents they can hang over TiVo and looks like they only found these two weak ones.


You don't show all your trick plays in the first quarter. You can be sure they have more in reserve.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jayn_j said:


> You don't show all your trick plays in the first quarter. You can be sure they have more in reserve.


Not a trick play in patent wars. This is standard run offense to open up the passing lanes. You tend to start with your best runners.


----------



## arentol (Jan 24, 2011)

Is a patent like 6,008,803 that has been violated on an ongoing basis for 10+ years by multiple companies with the full knowledge of the patent holder even still enforceable?


----------



## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I'm so tired of Microsoft and their crap.


----------



## Andyistic (Sep 25, 2009)

generaltso said:


> http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/20/microsoft-has-atandts-back-sues-tivo-for-patent-infringement/


Mediaroom? XBox-360?
I don't even have that!

These lawsuits are ridiculous.
And besides, Microsoft has more than enough money already.
They can spend their time doing other things.


----------



## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well you are lecturing another IT person  and of course downloading is not narrowly defined but the context here is your claim that a DVR is not much different from a VCR of old -
> so could you with a VCR and internet connection download a movie to watch on the VCR? The hard drive and OS in the DVR allows for a definte levle of functionality beyond a VCR even if you ignore the lack of hassle over tape swapping and watching things while the device is recoding the show x minutes ahead of where you are watching.


I remember with a TI/99-4a , you could record data to cassette. Now if a regular VCR had the proper interface, yes it could happen. It would be slow, but yes.


----------



## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Videodrome said:


> I remember with a TI/99-4a , you could record data to cassette. Now if a regular VCR had the proper interface, yes it could happen. It would be slow, but yes.


A TiVo VCR - Holds two tapes and has two tuners, automatically goes to the right point on the tape to watch your show when selected. An External Tape Device (ETD) is available to hold an additional two tapes, however, your show will be 'striped' across the internal and external tapes and removal of the ETD will result in the loss of programming. You can upgrade the internal video cassettes, through vendors such as Weaknees, up to 100hrs total recording time on the internal cassettes. Please note you can only be recording one program at a time when watching a saved program. You will also need to know that all recorded programming is encrypted and and the tapes will only play in your TiVo.


----------



## Royster (May 24, 2002)

jayn_j said:


> You don't show all your trick plays in the first quarter. You can be sure they have more in reserve.


Actually, no. In a lawsuit, if you do not list all of your claims at the beginning, you have to have permission of the court to amend and need to explain why these claims weren't known at the time of the filing of the suit. You certainly can't sue someone, lose and then go back with similar claims.


----------



## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

Royster said:


> Actually, no. In a lawsuit, if you do not list all of your claims at the beginning, you have to have permission of the court to amend and need to explain why these claims weren't known at the time of the filing of the suit. You certainly can't sue someone, lose and then go back with similar claims.


It isn't Microsoft's responsibility to know how TiVo implements its features. If the disclosure process in this case indicates an infringement claim Micorosoft is not aware of, of course it can be added, either in this suit or by a second legal action. It is TiVo's responsibility to avoid patent infringement and there could theoretically be dozens of additional claims Microsoft could make before the legal proceedings are final. I haven't read the Microsoft suit but if it is specific to just these two patents and not broad and would not allow for an amended filing to include additional patent infringement claims discovered, that won't be something Microsoft isn't capable of handling. Another lawsuit will be filed.

Because I found you were selling my dogs without my permission and filed suit for the value of my dogs isn't a reason I can't also sue you for selling my cats.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

daveak said:


> A TiVo VCR - Holds two tapes and has two tuners, automatically goes to the right point on the tape to watch your show when selected. An External Tape Device (ETD) is available to hold an additional two tapes, however, your show will be 'striped' across the internal and external tapes and removal of the ETD will result in the loss of programming. You can upgrade the internal video cassettes, through vendors such as Weaknees, up to 100hrs total recording time on the internal cassettes. Please note you can only be recording one program at a time when watching a saved program. You will also need to know that all recorded programming is encrypted and and the tapes will only play in your TiVo.


watch one show while recording another and watch with some specific trick play ability to precisely move around in show being watched due to the specific way the show was recorded in the first place. That is a big difference and also the heart of the TiVo win against DISH infringement.


----------



## Royster (May 24, 2002)

Yes, if discovery discloses additional infringement, that is a valid reason to amend the complaint. But if the infringement is something the plaintiff knew or should have known before the suit is filed, that's a reason to deny the motion to amend.

That said, a motion to amend filed early on is almost certain to be granted. The more time the suit has been live, the less likely a motion to amend is to succeed.

So, MSFT has likely filed its best charges up front.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Even as MS stated in the lawsuit, this whole thing is about MS wanting a patent licensing deal with TiVo. I'm sure in the end there will be a cross patent license deal (since both companies have several patent claims on each other). But the lawyers have to make their money first.


----------

