# Game of Thrones - S5E10 "Mother's Mercy" *Spoilers*



## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Well then. That was fascinating.

I can't even comprehend what the implications are of all of these deaths, but I think that Jon Snow isn't fully done. The Lord of Light can resurrect some people. The fact the witch is there and has no friends may play into it next season.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

My, that was...eventful.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Quicker to list who is still alive!


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## chronatog7 (Aug 26, 2004)

OMG. Now I am cheering for the white walkers to kill All Crows.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I very much enjoyed the show, and if that's Lena Headly's body then congratulations to her. 

But I seriously doubt anyone would be so stupid as to publlicly humiliate her and then return her to her army, now with recently undead super soldier. 

Anybody know where Dany is? All of those horses would be useful in her army.

Arya was badass. 

Are we to suppose that Sansa fell into 20' of powdery snow? Or was that just suicide?


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Dany has to be on the same side as the Narrow Sea as Meereen but I don't even know if they will follow her initially (considering a lot left in revolt in the first season). 

The King's Guard is looking pretty unstoppable.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Last week's look from Ollie spelled trouble for Jon. But that is a good point about the witch being there. And the fact that she has a thing for him only tells me she may bring him back.

I'm assuming Stannis is dead or did Brienne took mercy on him?

Sansa and Reek's leap of faith hopefully pays out.

Arya is blind now for taking Trant's eyes out?! Man did I stood up and cheer when I saw that slimeball get his!

Are those Dothraki's that surrounded Dany?

Has season 6 started yet?!!


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Those were definitely Dothraki. I don't know if they'll recognize her position as Khaleesi.


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## TomK (May 22, 2001)

The after show 'recap' by the writers said that Dany met the Dothrakis again.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

I don't know. A lot of stuff happened, but somehow the episode wasn't very exciting. A lack of tension or something.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

And the Dorne plot line dies not with a bang but with a whimper. What a waste of hours spent on it this season.

I vote for powdery snow. There's an actual case of a flight attendant who survived falling 33,333 feet from a plane, without a parachute, when she landed in snow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesna_Vulović There are a couple of other incredible examples. http://www.popularmechanics.com/adventure/outdoors/a5045/4344036/


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

The first thing I thought was that the Lord of Light will not let Jon Snow die. It wasn't wishful thinking on my part, I don't think. I just think it makes sense story-wise.

What was the ring that Dany let fall out of her hand? and why?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

A lot of predictable things in this episode such as poisoning the Lanister girl and the like and a lot of things that weren't predictable. 

I'm wondering why they didn't burn John Snow's body. I was expecting him to rise as a wight. 

What was the significance of Dany removing her ring? Also isn't the dragon fairly close by?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Oh, and the poison on the lips was too obvious. I was very annoyed at that.


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## TomK (May 22, 2001)

As far as Dany's ring (explained in the post show 'recap'), she dropped it as a way to let herself be tracked by those hunting her.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Bob Coxner said:


> I vote for powdery snow. There's an actual case of a flight attendant who survived falling 33,333 feet from a plane, without a parachute, when she landed in snow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesna_Vulović There are a couple of other incredible examples. http://www.popularmechanics.com/adventure/outdoors/a5045/4344036/


There's this video of someone surviving a 400 foot fall into snow, breaking several bones. Falling from the castle would be similar.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-base-jump-after-parachute-fails-to-open.html

Though we were told the snow began to thaw, so it wouldn't be powder at that point.

Then again we were also told all the horses were take yet the lady in red managed to find a horse.


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## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

The finale was just as boring as this season has been. Good lord, that kiss poisoning was so freaking obvious it was pitiful


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

My guess is it was her wedding ring. She didn't want the Dothraki to know she'd remarried.

I'd viewed Snow as untouchable, both because he and Dany are the cover art for the season and the theory that the series would end with a showdown between them. I'm thinking y'all are right that Melisandre will bring him back.

I think Theon and Sansa are safe and sound. Loved Ramsey's girlfriend going splat.

I do not think Brienne spared Stannis.

Poor Jamie. He finally got to tell his daughter the truth and then... whoops. So much for poison being a useless weapon.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Robin said:


> I do not think Brienne spared Stannis.


They didn't actually SHOW Stannis die, but I have a feeling we are going to hear some people TALK about him being dead, so...


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Staff the wall with a bunch of criminals, idiots, and their ilk? Whatever could go wrong?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I don't see any of those killed in this episode coming back, at least not as themselves (maybe a wight). Would be nice if John got a tombstone. 

"Here lies John Snow. He knew nothing."


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## sneagle (Jun 12, 2002)

Forgive my ignorance, but _what_ is the Knight that picked up Cersei at the end?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

sneagle said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but what is the Knight that picked up Cersei at the end?


Franken-Mountain


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Is it possible that Daenerys ends up getting her Dothraki army after all? She could marry another Khal. That gave us a pretty good look at that lone Dothraki rider? Anyone recognize him from Khal Drogo's clan? A Dothraki army of 40k would certainly be more formidable than 8k Unsullies


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

sneagle said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but _what_ is the Knight that picked up Cersei at the end?


The fact that he was like 20 ft tall (ok, exaggeration, but not that much) can only lead to one conclusion....the Mountain.

If you don't recall, last season he was poisoned (and very badly wounded) in the battle with Oberyn. He was expected to die, but then Qyburn (the creepy ex-maester) did some sort of experiment to save him. We didnt hear about it for a while, and then sometime mid this season, we saw in Qyburn's lab something on a table under a blanket start convulsing, and Qyburn said something like "easy my friend". It was clear he was saved, but turned into some sort of monster. You could see his skin looked all black through the helmet eye holes.

So the Lord of Light can bring people back from the dead, as can the white walkers, and now Qyburn can do the same for the almost dead.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Bob Coxner said:


> I vote for powdery snow. There's an actual case of a flight attendant who survived falling 33,333 feet from a plane, without a parachute, when she landed in snow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesna_Vulović There are a couple of other incredible examples. http://www.popularmechanics.com/adventure/outdoors/a5045/4344036/


There are several videos on YouTube of crazy Russian's doing this off the top of buildings. Like 8-10 stories up. So it's feasible.

I wonder if Sansa is going to end up being pregnant from Ramsy?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

At first I was thinking Daenerys dropped her ring because she didnt want the Dothraki to know she was some sort of wealthy or royalty, but then the way they treat the poor women, she has little hope that way to. I think her only hope was that they recognize her, or at least recognize if she tells that who she is.



Robin said:


> My guess is it was her wedding ring. She didn't want the Dothraki to know she'd remarried.


This I could totally live with.



TomK said:


> As far as Dany's ring (explained in the post show 'recap'), she dropped it as a way to let herself be tracked by those hunting her.


Uggh...this not so much. I totally hate that "Im going to leave this one clue for my rescuers to find randomly hidden in thee middle of thousands of square miles of land" type of plot device.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I wonder if Sansa is going to end up being pregnant from Ramsy?


After that fall? Maybe not so much


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I thought the ring was to let them know she was there. I think Jon will be back and not as a Wight. I think Sansa and Theon are fine and Stannis is dead.

Jaime and the ship weren't far from shore. Why wouldn't he turn around and come back and kill the b$tch? 

I actually felt sorry for Cersei


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

The Dothraki khalasar that Drogo headed, and that Dany was khaleesi of, is completely destroyed/disbanded. She's not a khaleesi of anything, anymore. It's not like she's still their queen but they just lost track of her... I don't see how she has any power or influence with any Dothraki.

Well, except, you know, ... dragons.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Is season 6 here yet .... Hurry !

Man seeing Jon stabbed as described pretty much in the book sure makes it look more likely he's dead. Makes no sense to me if he is given I've completely bought into the R+L=J line but then again I had no idea Ned would stay dead either!

Stannis is toast - nice to see Breanne get her revenge and do her duty - no chance she didn't follow through and take his head

Loved loved loved the Arya scenes - so good !

And for those bored with the season I guess I just don't get how that's even remotely possible given how incredible the story lines have unfolded the last 3 episodes. 

Btw is season 6 here yet !


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I thought the Dothraki lived in the desert. I didn't realize there were any areas on Essos that looked like Northern Westeros. When I saw the setting, I was sure Drogon flew them across the Narrow Sea. 

I was very surprised at how prolonged Cersei's walk was. I figured they'd show her start and then cut away. Man, that was brutal. Took a lot of guts for Lena Heady to agree to film that. 

I sure hope serving intervenes to save Jon. I've really been hoping he and Dany would make it to the end. 

How ironic that Brienne stares at that tower for weeks/months and then 30 seconds after she turns her back, the candle gets lit.

I had totally bought into Melisandre's magic, so I was really surprised to see how easily and soundly Stannis' army was decimated.


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## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

Here's my lame theory after Et Tu Ollie


Jon is resurrected by Melisandra(sp). He is no longer a brother of the Night's Watch, so he's free to raise an army from the Free Folk to take back Winterfell. It was his army that Melisandra saw in her vision. Davos will go with Jon and Brienne/Sansa/Theon will join his forces also.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

It looks like there are no survivors to tell Davos what happened to Shireen and Stannis, maybe Varys' little birds. If Davos hears about Shireen he should roast Melisandre.


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## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

What about the half of the army that deserted ostensibly because they were disgusted by the human sacrifice?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

What about all the raven messages Jon was reading just before he was betrayed?


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

squint said:


> What about the half of the army that deserted ostensibly because they were disgusted by the human sacrifice?


Exactly plenty of people to share the horror that was Stannis. Nice to see him die so quickly after his stupidity. Really glad it was B and not Ramsey that killed him as well.


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## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

MikeAndrews said:


> It looks like there are no survivors to tell Davos what happened to Shireen and Stannis, maybe Varys' little birds. If Davos hears about Shireen he should roast Melisandre.


Davos already knew when Stannis sent him away, but at some point, I wouldn't doubt that Melisandre would tell him about it


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> What about all the raven messages Jon was reading just before he was betrayed?


Those were rejections from the prior requests sent for more men


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I thought the ring Dany dropped was from her wedding to Drogo. It would not have been a good idea to show which clan she belonged to when meeting a rival group.


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## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

DevdogAZ said:


> What about all the raven messages Jon was reading just before he was betrayed?


Spam mail sent by raven?


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Jon must've done something horrible with a watch.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

I may be mistaken (or just hopeful) that Jon's eyes looked a bit red as he was "dying".


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I definitely didn't see Jon's death coming.

As much as I admire the naked female body, Cercei's Walk Of Shame Tour 2015 took so long I ffwd'd through half of it. Since Tommen is such a pu**y, here's hoping Cercei has the religious fanatics wiped out in the first one or two episodes next season. There was nothing believable (at least to me) about this season's whole Sparrow subplot so I hope it's resolved early next season.

Ha ha, Stannis. The fact they didn't show Brienne killing him leaves some wiggle room, though.

As despicable as Ramsay is, the actor who plays him does it with such glee that his battlefield scene was kind of funny.

I have no idea how Brienne was supposed to help Sansa anyway.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> And for those bored with the season I guess I just don't get how that's even remotely possible given how incredible the story lines have unfolded the last 3 episodes.


I'm with you. Those comments have been baffling me for weeks...


DevdogAZ said:


> I thought the Dothraki lived in the desert.


They live on the plains (think Mongols). Presumably Dany is now just off the plains?


DevdogAZ said:


> What about all the raven messages Jon was reading just before he was betrayed?


News of what happened at Winterfell?


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

That walk of shame was painful. First fit what Ceresi was going through and then for his much time was spent in it when there was so much to cover.

I do think Sansa is pregnant. Not because of any clues dropped, just because it would make her life that much harder.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> How ironic that Brienne stares at that tower for weeks/months and then 30 seconds after she turns her back, the candle gets lit.


Although now she at least has something plausible to do. She goes back, sees the candle (which hopefully still burns) and gets to Sansa to aid her. Ramsey has proven he's a good hunter, and he was intending to see Sansa right away. So, she has about a 20 second head start after a 150 foot fall.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

pjenkins said:


> Exactly plenty of people to share the horror that was Stannis. Nice to see him die so quickly after his stupidity. Really glad it was B and not Ramsey that killed him as well.


Me too. But terribly unrealistic. "Time to go back, my wife must miss me" when the attacking "King" is unaccounted for? They'd want his head for display for sure. And also unrealistic that a 7' women can walk around undetected while they're mopping up the dead.

Yep, that Stannis is a medieval MacArthur. "Prepare for the siege". Um, boss?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Although now she at least has something plausible to do. She goes back, sees the candle (which hopefully still burns) and gets to Sansa to aid her. Ramsey has proven he's a good hunter, and he was intending to see Sansa right away. So, she has about a 20 second head start after a 150 foot fall.


Probably a lot longer than that...I think it would seem much more likely to Ramsay that she is hiding somewhere in the castle than that she jumped from that height.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Why did Melisandre return to the wall? (And where did she get a horse?) Did she figure Stannis had lost the faith and would have her killed? Or does she have more of a plan?


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

How come Ghost was on it when it came to Sam but absent when his master was being killed?

I bet when Sam hears he's going to be racked with guilt over leaving.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Robin said:


> Why did Melisandre return to the wall? (And where did she get a horse?) Did she figure Stannis had lost the faith and would have her killed? Or does she have more of a plan?


"Figure"? She talked him into murdering his daughter to guarantee a win against Winterfell, yet it became clear that he couldn't win. She didn't want to be anywhere near him when he failed!


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Robin said:


> Why did Melisandre return to the wall? (And where did she get a horse?) Did she figure Stannis had lost the faith and would have her killed? Or does she have more of a plan?


Melisandre was sure that Stannis was "chosen one" by the Lord of Light. She was convinced that if she (and he) did every thing that the LoL asked, Stannis would be king. But I think that, after 1/2 his army deserted, she realized that she was wrong. It looks like she was already having her doubts when she was at Castle Black originally. She saw something in Jon Snow. I think she thinks that Jon Snow is the true King. (Except for the little problem that he is DEAD!)


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Took a lot of guts for Lena Heady to agree to film that.


Actors live for that kind of stuff.
My bet is an Emmy nomination because of it.

Unfortunately for me that was a well publicized event some months back because they had trouble with filming permits or the steps belonged to a church and there was a big hubbub about allowing them to film it on location.


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## Trugoy (Jun 25, 2006)

Apparently it was Lena Headey's head digitally superimposed on a body double. Headey is pregnant, so she wasn't able to film the scene herself.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TriBruin said:


> I think she thinks that Jon Snow is the true King. (Except for the little problem that he is DEAD!)


If only there were something a Red Priest type could do about that...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

In some dark dungeon Margaery is wondering "Hey, what about me?"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> In some dark dungeon Margaery is wondering "Hey, what about me?"


Free the twins!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Only Game of Thrones can make me feel sorry for Cersei.

I need to rewatch. Did anyone see Tommen waiting for his mother? I saw her uncle and the maester there (who enjoyed the spectacle tremendously).


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> In some dark dungeon Margaery is wondering "Hey, what about me?"


So, now that we know how it works...how many people are suddenly rooting for Margaery to confess?


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> The fact that he was like 20 ft tall (ok, exaggeration, but not that much) can only lead to one conclusion....the Mountain.
> 
> If you don't recall, last season he was poisoned (and very badly wounded) in the battle with Oberyn. He was expected to die, but then Qyburn (the creepy ex-maester) did some sort of experiment to save him. We didnt hear about it for a while, and then sometime mid this season, we saw in Qyburn's lab something on a table under a blanket start convulsing, and Qyburn said something like "easy my friend". It was clear he was saved, but turned into some sort of monster. You could see his skin looked all black through the helmet eye holes.
> 
> So the Lord of Light can bring people back from the dead, as can the white walkers, and now Qyburn can do the same for the almost dead.


Also, there was a scene about Q appropriating a dwarf's head. I think somehow a head transplant helped cure that chest wound.



cheesesteak said:


> I definitely didn't see Jon's death coming.
> 
> As much as I admire the naked female body, Cercei's Walk Of Shame Tour 2015 took so long I ffwd'd through half of it. Since Tommen is such a pu**y, here's hoping Cercei has the religious fanatics wiped out in the first one or two episodes next season. There was nothing believable (at least to me) about this season's whole Sparrow subplot so I hope it's resolved early next season.


It seems like with the ex-Mountain, they're building towards another Trial by Combat. But I'd rather see Cercei go wild and try to wipe out the Sparrows now that she's back. Do they not have enough men at arms?

Also, was someone scattering glass on her path? I didn't see why a barefoot walk on some smooth-looking paths caused all that blood. It looked like a Die Hard scene.

And when she got inside, most of her "team" just stared at her. Only Q stepped in to cover her and help her.



TriBruin said:


> Melisandre was sure that Stannis was "chosen one" by the Lord of Light. She was convinced that if she (and he) did every thing that the LoL asked, Stannis would be king. But I think that, after 1/2 his army deserted, she realized that she was wrong. It looks like she was already having her doubts when she was at Castle Black originally. She saw something in Jon Snow. I think she thinks that Jon Snow is the true King. (Except for the little problem that he is DEAD!)


She did say some things like "I saw Bolton banners burning." She didn't say she saw Stannis cause it. But I think she got fooled too -- she believed Stannis was The One until the desertion. Her god can do miracles, but she didn't like the odds anymore.

I know that a lot of theories have Jon in the series' end game, but I'm not sure if I want him revived. Too convenient. We've seen other major characters die. But this one gets revived by magic?


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I didn't see that coming. I guess I knew nothing.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tlc said:


> Also, was someone scattering glass on her path? I didn't see why a barefoot walk on some smooth-looking paths caused all that blood. It looked like a Die Hard scene.


Well, she walked what looked like about a mile on stone, and some of it through what looked like some pretty bad neighborhoods. Considering she normally probably doesn't go more than about 500 feet without being carried, and that in luxurious shoes, I'm not surprised her feet took a beating!


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

I thought most of the season was a slow build, but the last three weeks contained some of the best scenes on TV. I don't know how much more could have happened in that time? I am still processing all of the events in the finale.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> In some dark dungeon Margaery is wondering "Hey, what about me?"


I kept waiting for an update on her. Is she still there, did she get released?

It's hard to believe how wimpy Tommen is. After his mother AND his wife get imprisoned, wouldn't it be pretty easy to simply order your warriors to raid the Sept, and kill everyone who isn't those two? I don't care how milquetoast one is, surely you would do _something_?



Anubys said:


> I need to rewatch. Did anyone see Tommen waiting for his mother? I saw her uncle and the maester there (who enjoyed the spectacle tremendously).


Yeah, my comment above. Where the eff is Tommen?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

tlc said:


> And when she got inside, most of her "team" just stared at her. Only Q stepped in to cover her and help her.


Tommen was probably in his room watching cartoons or something. If I'm about 15 and the freakin' king and some mostly unarmed religious fanatics captured my mother and the hot woman who introduced me to sex, there'd be a lot of dead religious fanatics.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

astrohip said:


> It's hard to believe how wimpy Tommen is. After his mother AND his wife get imprisoned, wouldn't it be pretty easy to simply order your warriors to raid the Sept, and kill everyone who isn't those two? I don't care how milquetoast one is, surely you would do _something_?


Probably nobody told him he _could _do something...


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

Didn't his mother say there isn't anything he could/should do? This was when his brother in-law was imprisoned and then his wife.

Of course that was all part of her plan and before she got locked up herself


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Test said:


> Didn't his mother say there isn't anything he could/should do? This was when his brother in-law was imprisoned and then his wife.
> 
> Of course that was all part of her plan and before she got locked up herself


She did say that. I bet she was kicking herself later.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Cersei said that so he would do nothing. Of course it ended up biting her in the butt.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Thought the last few episodes were fantastic, but would liked to have seen more from Littlefinger. It seemed like the first part of the season was setting him up for a larger role.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

3D said:


> Thought the last few episodes were fantastic, but would liked to have seen more from Littlefinger. It seemed like the first part of the season was setting him up for a larger role.


Well, according to his plan that we heard, he is waiting for the battle between Stannis and the Boltons to end before he swoops in and defeats the victor. That battle just ended. We didn't really get a sense of Stannis's army doing any real damage to a much bigger than expected Bolton army. Not sure Littlefinger can just march in and take over as he planned.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

*I cut my index finger pretty bad last night chopping onions and it is all bandaged up and very hard to type. I apologize in advance for mistakes.

These last 3 episodes have been great!!

Cersei's scene was so hard to watch!! I never thought I could have sympathy for her but that was just brutal. The lady chanting "shame" just added extra creepieness. 

I literally raised my arms in celebration and shouted "Yes!" when Theon shoved Miss Creepy to her death and I admit to enjoying watching her literally go "splat" way, way more than I shoudl have.  This show sometimes makes me question my own morality. 

When theon and sansa jumped, I immediately assumed they were jumping into a nice, soft snow drift. Hopefully they will run across Brienne and Pod out there somewhere? 

Arya....LOVE HER!!! I know she was bad and didn't follow the rules, but wow, it was nice to see her finally get that guy! I hope her punishment isn't permanent.

Melisandre looked defeated to me. I was under the impression she was truly surprised that things had gone they way they did. I still can't figure out what Stannis thought he was going to do marching up to Winterfell with that pitiful remnant of an army. Did he truly think he had a chance of winning? Was he still thinking the Lord of Light was going to save him?

I was strangely unaffected by Jon's death/non-death. I feel like I should have been crying and upset, but to be honest....I found taht I really didn't care as much as I felt I was supposed to. Maybe when I rewatch teh second time it will hit me more?


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

God there is a lot of Facebook rage this morning. "I'm done with this show, Jon Snow was the best!"

Did they not see The Pointy End? And every episode after that?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

ONe other quick thought......if Jon didn't "die" then he woudl have been bound to the Night's Watch forever. I dont' think that it is a conicidence that Melisandre happene to show up at Castle Black. How convenient that she's there when Jon dies.

I think he's coming back. Maybe not as Jon Snow, but he's not gone for good. And if/when he does come back, I can't wait to see that little sh*t Ollie's face.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Arya....LOVE HER!!! I know she was bad and didn't follow the rules, but wow, it was nice to see her finally get that guy! I hope her punishment isn't permanent.


Oh, yeah. So what's the theory on a faceless guy taking himself out. Besides the fact that he took himself out instead of Arya -- hey, we're all _nobodies_ anyway.

But why did someone have to pay at all? Back when she saved Ja'quar, it was 3 lived, so 3 die. This time, did someone have to die because Trant died or because the insurance guy didn't?

If it's because Trant died, it doesn't follow the live/die "balance" equation.
If it's because insurance guy didn't. Just kill him tomorrow. Is there a time limit?


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> ONe other quick thought......if Jon didn't "die" then he woudl have been bound to the Night's Watch forever. I dont' think that it is a conicidence that Melisandre happene to show up at Castle Black. How convenient that she's there when Jon dies.
> 
> I think he's coming back. Maybe not as Jon Snow, but he's not gone for good. And if/when he does come back, I can't wait to see that little sh*t Ollie's face.


Jon is honor bound to stay with the Watch, even if they keep killing him. "I swore a vow."


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> Melisandre looked defeated to me. I was under the impression she was truly surprised that things had gone they way they did. I still can't figure out what Stannis thought he was going to do marching up to Winterfell with that pitiful remnant of an army. Did he truly think he had a chance of winning? Was he still thinking the Lord of Light was going to save him?


He kind of had to. Otherwise, he had to accept that he had murdered his own daughter for nothing.


----------



## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

Can someone do a quick breakdown on where the book/TV line up as of this season finale? (for each story thread)

For example: I believe the TV STANNIS story line is past the book. Etc...


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

nickels said:


> Well, according to his plan that we heard, he is waiting for the battle between Stannis and the Boltons to end before he swoops in and defeats the victor. That battle just ended. We didn't really get a sense of Stannis's army doing any real damage to a much bigger than expected Bolton army. Not sure Littlefinger can just march in and take over as he planned.


 I agree this didn't work out as Littlefinger wanted, but I don't think the Bolton army was much bigger than expected. It's just that Stannis's army was less than half as big as the one he started with, plus all his equipment (horses, etc.) were gone.

I think the wildlings are going to be pretty sorry they didn't help defeat the Boltons... I know I wouldn't want Boltons coming after me...

I'm not sure about the Melisandre saves Jon angle. I mean, she has zero allies in Castle Black right now. How is she going to manage to revive Jon with getting killed, or having him re-killed (burning one assumes)?



tlc said:


> Jon is honor bound to stay with the Watch, even if they keep killing him. "I swore a vow."


 No, the Night's Watch vow is "until my death". When he dies he's released from the vow. I don't think Jon is so honorable that he'd feel the need to stay even after his vow is complete.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jon has to come back somehow. His story just isn't done yet.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Stannis did the GoT version of taking a knife to a gunfight. I watched this episode with headphones on. When it became apparent how big the Bolton army was, I could hear one of Stannis' soldiers yell "We don't stand a chance!" in the background audio.

Now that Cercei is free, I'd start packing my things and skedaddle out of town if I were that nun who tortured her and kept saying "Shame!" Cercei is going to kill the crap out of her.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Jon has to come back somehow. His story just isn't done yet.


Maybe they can mount Stannis' head onto Jon's body and then you can get someone who knows more than nothing and also can actually win a battle once in a while.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Jon has to come back somehow. His story just isn't done yet.


I sure hope you are right. And GRRM has hinted at that so I'm not completely devastated at his 'death'. I can use quotes around death right, that way he's not dead 

If Snow dies, I literally have like two characters I'm rooting for (Arya and Tyrian), ok maybe Bronn and Bran too... Otherwise I may have to switch my rooting for the White Walkers


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I hope he stays dead. I'm not interested in another zombie story line.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I hope he stays dead. I'm not interested in another zombie story line.


The main reason I think he has to still be around is Martin (and the show) have made a big enough deal over who he is that who he is has to matter...and I don't see how it can matter if he's dead.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tlc said:


> Oh, yeah. So what's the theory on a faceless guy taking himself out. Besides the fact that he took himself out instead of Arya -- hey, we're all nobodies anyway. But why did someone have to pay at all?


He didn't take himself out. That was just a Faceless Man trick. When Arya took all the faces off, she ended up looking at her own face, at which point she started to go blind from whatever substance was drunk.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Speaking of Arya and the faces, last week I asked if she was wearing a face while being the oyster girl. After seeing this week's scene, I guess it's safe to say she was not. 

Another thing. Arya, sweetie. Did you really think you were going to take that face, use it to kill a man and then return it and nobody would know?


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The main reason I think he has to still be around is Martin (and the show) have made a big enough deal over who he is that who he is has to matter...and I don't see how it can matter if he's dead.


Well, Ned was a big deal and I thought the major character of book 1, and we know what the end result of him was....

Just re-watched the Arya scene with Trant, man that was good


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

nickels said:


> Well, according to his plan that we heard, he is waiting for the battle between Stannis and the Boltons to end before he swoops in and defeats the victor. That battle just ended. We didn't really get a sense of Stannis's army doing any real damage to a much bigger than expected Bolton army.


I thought Stannis would get demolished. He had 2 strikes against him. 1 - he was massively outnumbered. 2 - they all had horses, and he had none. Being infantry fighting against cavalry is a huge disadvantage in itself. So I thought he'd get wiped out easily. Yet, in that scene where Stannis is in the woods, there's only a few guys here and there alive (which he promptly kills). Then we see Ramsey with (I think) 1 other guy alive. That almost made it look like they mostly wiped each other out. What I dont' recall (if they even showed it) was how many actually returned to Winterfell.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The main reason I think he has to still be around is Martin (and the show) have made a big enough deal over who he is that who he is has to matter...and I don't see how it can matter if he's dead.


He's made a big deal about a lot of stuff that didn't end up mattering in the show.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

nickels said:


> Well, according to his plan that we heard, he is waiting for the battle between Stannis and the Boltons to end before he swoops in and defeats the victor. That battle just ended. We didn't really get a sense of Stannis's army doing any real damage to a much bigger than expected Bolton army. Not sure Littlefinger can just march in and take over as he planned.


True, but it's hard to believe that he wouldn't be scheming in some form or another with Cersei locked away.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> Well, Ned was a big deal and I thought the major character of book 1, and we know what the end result of him was....


Except there weren't any major plotlines left dangling by his demise. Jon really has to be alive for the mystery of who he is to matter.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except there weren't any major plotlines left dangling by his demise. Jon really has to be alive for the mystery of who he is to matter.


I don't see why it would matter other than from the aspect of character development. Even if he has royal blood, this world is one where royal blood means very little given how many times the throne has been usurped and how many people claim to have royal blood in the first place.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except there weren't any major plotlines left dangling by his demise. Jon really has to be alive for the mystery of who he is to matter.


We don't know where the show is going. Perhaps his entire contribution to the timeline is getting all those wildlings south of the wall. Perhaps they will be pivotal in the near future.

Edit: or his contribution could be that Valyrian steel can kill white walkers. He got that info to Sam, and they talked briefly about how many of those weapons exist.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> I thought Stannis would get demolished. He had 2 strikes against him. 1 - he was massively outnumbered. 2 - they all had horses, and he had none. Being infantry fighting against cavalry is a huge disadvantage in itself. So I thought he'd get wiped out easily. Yet, in that scene where Stannis is in the woods, there's only a few guys here and there alive (which he promptly kills). Then we see Ramsey with (I think) 1 other guy alive. That almost made it look like they mostly wiped each other out. What I dont' recall (if they even showed it) was how many actually returned to Winterfell.


That was my take on it as well - the battlefield was littered with bodies and there wasn't much in the way of people milling around - and this was before Sansa and Theon saw them returning. I don't think there are a ton of Boltons left.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> News of what happened at Winterfell?


Exactly. I posted that in response to someone speculating that because Stannis' army was wiped out, the people at Castle Black would never know what happened.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> I still can't figure out what Stannis thought he was going to do marching up to Winterfell with that pitiful remnant of an army. Did he truly think he had a chance of winning? Was he still thinking the Lord of Light was going to save him?


There were 2 possible outcomes:

1) The visions were true, and he was destined to win no matter what, so lets go for it.
2) The visions were false, in which case, he killed Renly and Shireen (and caused his wife to commit suicide) for nothing. Also, as he said before...he lost at Blackwater already and if he retreated from Winterfell he would be a joke and nobody would ever fight for him again. So he lost his family for nothing, and has nothing more to accomplish in his life, so he might as well die.

So he's really in a "Winterfell or bust" situation.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Stannis also believed the Red Witch. He had other reasons, too, but she promised him what would happen many times and was right. She promised he would win at Winterfell.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Bob Coxner said:


> And the Dorne plot line dies not with a bang but with a whimper. What a waste of hours spent on it this season.


I'm wondering if whats-his-name, Jamie's companion, has any more of that antidote on hand.

IOW is Myrcella _actually_ dead from poison?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Jon must've done something horrible with a watch.


:up:


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

A decent interview with Lena Headey on the Walk of Shame ...
While the article has no spoilers that I can see, additional story links at the bottom of the article may have casting/story spoilers, so be warned.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-walk-shame


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Now that I think of it, if the Nights Watch were willing to kill Jon, they really picked the wrong time to do it. They should have done it BEFORE letting all the wildings through


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

astrohip said:


> I kept waiting for an update on her. Is she still there, did she get released?
> 
> It's hard to believe how wimpy Tommen is. After his mother AND his wife get imprisoned, wouldn't it be pretty easy to simply order your warriors to raid the Sept, and kill everyone who isn't those two? I don't care how milquetoast one is, surely you would do something?
> 
> Yeah, my comment above. Where the eff is Tommen?


Cersei kept him completely sheltered from any decision making so he has no clue who to command or how to do it.

Oops.



LordKronos said:


> I thought Stannis would get demolished. He had 2 strikes against him. 1 - he was massively outnumbered. 2 - they all had horses, and he had none. Being infantry fighting against cavalry is a huge disadvantage in itself. So I thought he'd get wiped out easily. Yet, in that scene where Stannis is in the woods, there's only a few guys here and there alive (which he promptly kills). Then we see Ramsey with (I think) 1 other guy alive. That almost made it look like they mostly wiped each other out. What I dont' recall (if they even showed it) was how many actually returned to Winterfell.


I assumed the Bolton army was relatively untouched and Ramsey was just surveying his accomplishments.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I thought this paragraph from a Deadspin article was pretty funny:



> I'll tell you who really sucks: the Unsullied. The Unsullied are the Atlanta Hawks of Game of Thrones: nameless, cheerless drones with no sex appeal in an alarmingly visceral sense who're nonetheless tirelessly hailed for their grittiness and adherence to fundamentals and team-first attitude, at least until they all get iced in a back alley by a ragtag troupe of Katy Perry backup dancers. Daenerys would've been better off with the dwarf-clown troupe from Joffrey's wedding. Re: the Dull part of the Dull/Awful equation, this show spends a lotta time building up the fighting/strategizing acumen of peripheral characters who all turn out to be total chumps. Even Drogon the Dragon nearly got murked by half a dozen Katy Perry backup dancers throwing spears.


There are numerous bad words in this linked article: http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/game-of-thrones-needs-to-put-us-out-of-its-misery-1711317572


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Truth!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Robin said:


> I assumed the Bottom army was relatively untouched and Ramsey was just surveying his accomplishments.


Are you saying the Boltons are just a bunch of asses?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm with Rob in that I don't think they invested all this time in Jon Snow's story to just kill it off. The entire Brotherhood without banners arc must have been there to set up Jon coming back to life. I remind you of how Mellisandre interrogated the priest about how he brought his friend back from the dead.

Now, many promising lives are snuffed and left without resolution. I can see that point as well. I just don't think this is one of them.

Of course, I also believed that Stannis would sit on the iron throne...so WTF do I know!


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Of course, I also believed that Stannis would sit on the iron throne...so WTF do I know!


You know nothing.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

There is too much going on for Jon Snow to be dead dead. We still have to learn about his parents, there is a huge fight against the undead and he is top candidate as being the chosen one from the prophesies, and there are too many options are still open:
Some LOL followers can resurrect the dead
Jon Snow could be a warg - we have seen in the past that killing the body of a warg still allows their mind to live in the animal. I have to watch him die again, but something clearly happens in Jon Snows eyes while the blood is draining from his body.

I know we lose major characters all the time, but this time I just feel like there is too much involved for Jon Snow to be gone.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

What prophecies?


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> He didn't take himself out. That was just a Faceless Man trick. When Arya took all the faces off, she ended up looking at her own face, at which point she started to go blind from whatever substance was drunk.


 Well, it wasn't Arya that drank the substance, it was whomever fell to the floor. Why would Arya go blind? Apparently the blindness was a side-effect of wearing a face before she was actually faceless: _You are still someone. And to someone, the faces are as good as poison._ That scene was pretty odd, for sure.



BeanMeScot said:


> Truth!


 Without starting a big argument again, I'll just point out that in the books the Unsullied definitely _are_, and are shown to be, exceptionally formidable. It's just the TV show that does such a pitiful job of making this clear.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I'm going with Arya's blindness is payback for taking Trant's eyes.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

nickels said:


> There is too much going on for Jon Snow to be dead dead. We still have to learn about his parents, there is a huge fight against the undead and he is top candidate as being the chosen one from the prophesies, and there are too many options are still open:
> Some LOL followers can resurrect the dead
> Jon Snow could be a warg - we have seen in the past that killing the body of a warg still allows their mind to live in the animal. I have to watch him die again, but something clearly happens in Jon Snows eyes while the blood is draining from his body.
> 
> I know we lose major characters all the time, but this time I just feel like there is too much involved for Jon Snow to be gone.


I agree. Also, perhaps it's not a coincidence that his direwolf's name is "Ghost".


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Melisandre tells Thorne that the Lord of light demands a sacrifice so has to burn the kid, Olly. Then it turns out that she really is just a sadist that likes to watch people burn and hear them scream.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> I'm going with Arya's blindness is payback for taking Trant's eyes.


Not looking forward to the chest and throat retribution scenes.


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## sneagle (Jun 12, 2002)

nickels said:


> ...I have to watch him die again, *but something clearly happens in Jon Snows eyes while the blood is draining from his body*...


His pupils dilated. That is what happens in real life when you die. I thought it was a nice touch.

Sadly, Jon Snow is dead. Valar morghulis

My thoughts for the ruler at the end (I have not read the books)...

Daenerys: She has the dragons, if she can learn to use them. She has the advisors--Tyrion and Jorah. Maybe even a Dothrakian Army.
Bran: We have no idea where he is and what he is learning
Ramsay Bolton: It would suck but GOT is not a feel good story (Though I did enjoy Iwan Rheon in The Misfits)
I am not sure who is else is "eligible" unless it's a character we have not met.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Dany is like a lucky army spendthrift - just when she's out of fighters she lucks into a new battalion.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Robin said:


> I assumed the Bottom army was relatively untouched and Ramsey was just surveying his accomplishments.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

sneagle said:


> His pupils dilated. That is what happens in real life when you die. I thought it was a nice touch.
> 
> Sadly, Jon Snow is dead. Valar morghulis
> 
> ...


The only satisfactory ending for this show would be if the Night's King ends up on the throne because all of the humans are too caught up in their trivial personal squabbles for a meaningless title.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

nickels said:


> There is too much going on for Jon Snow to be dead dead. We still have to learn about his parents, there is a huge fight against the undead and he is top candidate as being the chosen one from the prophesies, and there are too many options are still open:
> Some LOL followers can resurrect the dead
> Jon Snow could be a warg - we have seen in the past that killing the body of a warg still allows their mind to live in the animal. I have to watch him die again, but something clearly happens in Jon Snows eyes while the blood is draining from his body.
> 
> I know we lose major characters all the time, but this time I just feel like there is too much involved for Jon Snow to be gone.


From the article on Cersi.



Spoiler



Cersei's future-along with other Thrones characters-is now a mystery since the showrunners have reached the end of Martin's published material...


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> There were 2 possible outcomes:
> 
> 1) The visions were true, and he was destined to win no matter what, so lets go for it.
> 2) The visions were false, in which case, he killed Renly and Shireen (and caused his wife to commit suicide) for nothing. Also, as he said before...he lost at Blackwater already and if he retreated from Winterfell he would be a joke and nobody would ever fight for him again. So he lost his family for nothing, and has nothing more to accomplish in his life, so he might as well die.
> ...


2b) _"And the peasants marching with me don't matter."_



Robin said:


> Cersei kept him completely sheltered from any decision making so he has no clue who to command or how to do it.


He should be able to talk to his Hand (his uncle?). Tell the Hand what he wants and let him worry about how. (The uncle might work harder on the Queen then Cercei, but...)



TAsunder said:


> The only satisfactory ending for this show would be if the Night's King ends up on the throne because all of the humans are too caught up in their trivial personal squabbles for a meaningless title.


I think Sam should win The Game. He's going off to get the knowledge that will help defeat the WW. Maybe he becomes a badass hero!

I think the "Jon gets revived" theory will be correct. I just don't like it. Saved by magic is too easy. _"Wow, thanks! Can you bring back my dad and brother, too? Maybe a couple of armies worth of men?"_


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Careful, the linked articles answer pretty definitively whether the resurrection theory is correct.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Careful, the linked articles answer pretty definitively whether the resurrection theory is correct.


If it's to be believed. At this point, I'm not sure I would believe anything they say. I'm taking a wait and see stance.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

3D said:


> I agree. Also, perhaps it's not a coincidence that his direwolf's name is "Ghost".


I believe he was called Ghost because he was the only white one. GRRM might have another motive, but...



DUDE_NJX said:


> Careful, the linked articles answer pretty definitively whether the resurrection theory is correct.


Unless one has read Book Six, or talked directly to one of the three people who know for a fact, it's just conjecture and rumor and guesses.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

It's the words of the show's producer, George, and the actor that played Jon. I'd say those are not rumors.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Book related, so spoilerized ...



Spoiler



GRRM has hinted pretty strongly that Jon is not dead. Considering that the question the producers successfully answered before he would tell them how the story is supposed to end up was "Who is Jon's mother?" I doubt Jon's part of the story is over.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

sneagle said:


> His pupils dilated. That is what happens in real life when you die. I thought it was a nice touch.
> 
> Sadly, Jon Snow is dead. Valar morghulis


You're not allowing for the possibility at all that Jon could somehow be revived? Especially given all the hints about why his true parentage is very important to the story?



Stormspace said:


> From the article on Cersi.
> 
> * SPOILER *


How is that a spoiler? Isn't it common knowledge that the show has pretty much reached the end of the books (and even gone beyond in a couple spots)?


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> Exactly. I posted that in response to someone speculating that because Stannis' army was wiped out, the people at Castle Black would never know what happened.


I believe that the letters Jon was reading were from the families he sent letters to prior (that Sam helped him write) that were requesting men be sent to the wall. Those were responses telling Jon, nope, sorry. His dejected look was because of that, not because of the Stannis/Bolton conflict. But I didn't see any of the letters, so I could be wrong. Wonder if someone has a screen capture / blow up of what was sent to him.

People would know what happened because the Boltons were still alive along with their army and would tell people. The defeat of Stannis is not something that will be hidden by them, it's a great win for House Bolton.

In the books


Spoiler



Ramsey had sent a letter directly to Jon because the events in the book were a lot more complicated than on the show and Jon was killed because of those events, not because of a trick by the NW about his uncle..


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> I believe that the letters Jon was reading were from the families he sent letters to prior (that Sam helped him write) that were requesting men be sent to the wall. Those were responses telling Jon, nope, sorry. His dejected look was because of that, not because of the Stannis/Bolton conflict. But I didn't see any of the letters, so I could be wrong. Wonder if someone has a screen capture / blow up of what was sent to him.
> 
> People would know what happened because the Boltons were still alive along with their army and would tell people. The defeat of Stannis is not something that will be hidden by them, it's a great win for House Bolton.
> 
> In the books * SPOILER *


Regarding your spoiler,


Spoiler



isn't there a fairly well-regarded fan theory that the "Ramsey Letter" was actually written by Stannis, with the help of Theon, to trick Jon into sending reinforcements?


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> Regarding your spoiler,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



Perhaps, but I didn't see/read that in the book passages myself so not sure how that would hold up.



Much has changed between the book and show details so it's hard to say in any case!


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

TAsunder said:


> What prophecies?


There is folklore that keeps coming up, not sure if the shows have covered it enough (I think this is mentioned here and there) but it is important Westoros history.

I will hide this stuff but I don't consider it a spoiler as it is all lore and speculation:


Spoiler



http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Azor_Ahai

The Red Queen often refers to "him", and she mistook Stannis for the Warrior of Light. This seems like the key to the whole series as this figure is supposed to come back/be reborn and save the world from the White Walkers.


----------



## markbox (May 3, 2004)

Damn what an ending. Wish we didn't have to wait a year for season six!

I've been holding off reading books 4 and 5 for fear that the books would spoil the show content. I don't want to read any of the other thread that discusses the show and books together to find the answer to this question as I don't want to spoil the books. Is it now safe to read books 4 and 5? Will season six be based on unpublished material? I suppose the answer should be spoilerized just in case.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

markbox said:


> Damn what an ending. Wish we didn't have to wait a year for season six!
> 
> I've been holding off reading books 4 and 5 for fear that the books would spoil the show content. I don't want to read any of the other thread that discusses the show and books together to find the answer to this question as I don't want to spoil the books. Is it now safe to read books 4 and 5? Will season six be based on unpublished material? I suppose the answer should be spoilerized just in case.


I don't think the answer needs a spoiler. You can now read the books and be pretty much caught up - some places in the show are beyond the book, as indicated. Many storylines are different as well, so be prepared for that.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

markbox said:


> Damn what an ending. Wish we didn't have to wait a year for season six!
> 
> I've been holding off reading books 4 and 5 for fear that the books would spoil the show content. I don't want to read any of the other thread that discusses the show and books together to find the answer to this question as I don't want to spoil the books. Is it now safe to read books 4 and 5? Will season six be based on unpublished material? I suppose the answer should be spoilerized just in case.


I believe you might learn some things not yet addressed in this season if you read them now, based on discussions I had with coworkers today.

I believe GRRM has said that the next book will come out some time before the next season, but ultimately it doesn't matter because they will have finished most or all of the filming before the book comes out, I believe.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

The books have so far departed from the show at this point, there is a tenuous relationship between them, at best.

I have to imagine that GRRM will give them notes to base the season on and he'll write the book, or be in the process of writing the book when it is filmed. It will be a weird dynamic.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I think it's interesting that they took two seasons to cover the events in Book 3, but managed to condense Books 4 and 5 down to one season. Amazing what you can do when you throw out the whole Iron Islands story line ...


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

The show is even with or beyond the books now. There is some stuff in the books that hasn't been covered but no one knows if the writers are ignoring that stuff or haven't included it yet so it's hard to say with 100% certainty whether you will find out something that hasn't been brought up yet or not. I would feel pretty safe in reading the books now even if you don't want to be spoiled.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> I think it's interesting that they took two seasons to cover the events in Book 3, but managed to condense Books 4 and 5 down to one season. Amazing what you can do when you throw out the whole Iron Islands story line ...


It was smart. 4 and 5 meander and aren't very good. It tells you how much they were able to distill down what GRRM has written. And even then, the first 7 episodes were just plain boring. But apparently the writers felt the events shown were necessary.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

I don't agree that 4 and 5 "aren't very good". I don't think they are as good as 1-3, but they are not bad by any stretch of the imagination.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

Did Dany actually marry that guy? I thought they were just engaged.

After each episode, I have been reading the Wired Game of Thrones recaps. They cover each story as it happened in the episode and then compare it to the books. I haven't read the books, but find it very interesting to see where the show is compared to the books and where the show has veered off. Nothing I read felt spoilerish, and often explains stuff for me. For example, when Arya first saw the man coming off the boat and followed him, I didn't know who it was or why she cared. So many characters to keep track of.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

pjenkins said:


> I don't agree that 4 and 5 "aren't very good". I don't think they are as good as 1-3, but they are not bad by any stretch of the imagination.


They are slow and boring. I still read them.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

markbox said:


> Damn what an ending. Wish we didn't have to wait a year for season six!
> 
> I've been holding off reading books 4 and 5 for fear that the books would spoil the show content. I don't want to read any of the other thread that discusses the show and books together to find the answer to this question as I don't want to spoil the books. Is it now safe to read books 4 and 5? Will season six be based on unpublished material? I suppose the answer should be spoilerized just in case.


I'd go ahead and read them, but not one after the other. Search online for a reading order that has you go back and forth between both books.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

pjenkins said:


> I don't agree that 4 and 5 "aren't very good". I don't think they are as good as 1-3, but they are not bad by any stretch of the imagination.





cherry ghost said:


> I'd go ahead and read them, but not one after the other. Search online for a reading order that has you go back and forth between both books.


:up:


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

MonsterJoe said:


> The books have so far departed from the show at this point, there is a tenuous relationship between them, at best.


 I think "tenuous" is overstating it. The show has greatly simplified some things, and tossed away big chunks of plot. But of the main plotlines that exist in the TV show, most of them are not that far from the books in their major beats. The Winterfell plotline is really the one that's diverged the most.



BeanMeScot said:


> The show is even with or beyond the books now. There is some stuff in the books that hasn't been covered but no one knows if the writers are ignoring that stuff or haven't included it yet so it's hard to say with 100% certainty whether you will find out something that hasn't been brought up yet or not. I would feel pretty safe in reading the books now even if you don't want to be spoiled.


 I think the only TV show character that's not as far along (or maybe better said, a bit out of order) as the books is Arya, just based on where she ends up at the end of this season. But nothing major: it could be caught up in just a few minutes in the next season. As I mention above, Winterfell is a bit tricky because they've diverged the most from the books.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Shakhari said:


> Book related, so spoilerized ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unless:



Spoiler



The answer to the question was "it doesn't matter. The hints about Jon's lineage is a red herring." Hard to imagine that's the case given the episode from earlier this year that had otherwise irrelevant mentions of facts related to that very subject by Littlefinger to Sansa, Stannis to either his wife or Melisandre, and the ex head of the kingsguard to Danerys (his name is slipping my mind at the moment). Of course, that could have just been servicing a popular fan theory.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> I don't agree that 4 and 5 "aren't very good". I don't think they are as good as 1-3, but they are not bad by any stretch of the imagination.


I enjoyed 4 quite a bit. It was 5 that I slogged through.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm confused about why Daario and Jorah thought it was a good idea to go look for Dany. She flew away on a dragon and could be anywhere in the world by now. And the dragon is friendly (sort of) to her, so it's not like she was kidnapped or is in danger. Presumably, the dragon knows the way back to Meereen, as he's left and returned many times. So if I'm them, I'm figuring that Dany and Drogon will find their way back to Meereen in due time and it won't do any good for them to go out on some aimless quest. For all they know, they'll ride out of the city in one direction and Dany and Drogon will return from another direction and they'll be out hunting for nothing.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Maybe they read the script, and know she's not coming back on her own...


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Are you saying the Boltons are just a bunch of asses?


I was right even when I was wrong!


tlc said:


> He should be able to talk to his Hand (his uncle?). Tell the Hand what he wants and let him worry about how. (The uncle might work harder on the Queen then Cercei, but...)


Have we seen him interacting with him? It did everything go through cereci?


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Somehow, after this season, I find myself secretly rooting for the white walkers....they seem better than the humans in this show...


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

The possible fate of Jon Snow...

He'll recuperate somehow. Arrow did it, why not him.
Melisandra will bring him back to life, either because she believes he's Azor Ahai or some other reason.
They'll burn his body, fires will heal him. Melisandre will call him Azor Ahai.
They'll burn his body, fires will heal him and he'll have silver hair and some will call him a Targaryon, Melisandre will still call him Azor Ahai.
They'll burn his body, he turns to ashes. Cuz he's dead.
He worgs into Ghost before he dies. The rest of the series Jon will be the dire wolf, unless Ghost dies. It also makes Ghost a fitting name.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Robin said:


> Have we seen him interacting with him? It did everything go through cereci?


When Qyburn visited, he told her Kevan had been asked to come back to be the Hand. We haven't seen him.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

BeanMeScot said:


> When Qyburn visited, he told her Kevan had been asked to come back to be the Hand. We haven't seen him.


He was in the group that watched her come into the keep wasn't he?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

pjenkins said:


> He was in the group that watched her come into the keep wasn't he?


I didn't notice him there. Of course, I was paying more attention to the Franken Mountain.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

robojerk said:


> He worgs into Ghost before he dies. The rest of the series Jon will be the dire wolf, unless Ghost dies. It also makes Ghost a fitting name.


But what good would that be? The show has shown Direwolves to be not all that great - easily killed and locked up. They can't speak and are pretty useless in the grand scheme of things.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

pjenkins said:


> But what good would that be? The show has shown Direwolves to be not all that great - easily killed and locked up. They can't speak and are pretty useless in the grand scheme of things.


I agree it would be bad television. Who knows what will happen in the books.


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

I think the writer is an Idiot. He starts the show with the Starks so we get to know and like them then he kills them off before the show is over. I know everyone is bad or evil but you need to like someone on a show to keep the audience interested. Most of my friends said they are threw with the show since everyone they liked is dead. lol


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I think the writer is an Idiot. He starts the show with the Starks so we get to know and like them then he kills them off before the show is over. I know everyone is bad or evil but you need to like someone on a show to keep the audience interested. *Most of my friends said they are threw with the show since everyone they liked is dead.* lol


And yet next season will have more viewers than ever!


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Well, if this is the end of the series, it's a decent place to end.

Daenerys killed by those Dothroki.
Sansa and Theon dead from the fall.
Arya poisoned to death.
The White Walkers will over run Westeros because Jon Snow is dead.

Do I believe this for a second?
No.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

We'll see Cersei have Frankenstone level every last citizen of King's Landing as he works his way to and through the High Septon's joint.

Will she have to answer for lying to the gods about the incest rumors not being true?


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

Jonathan_S said:


> I'm wondering if whats-his-name, Jamie's companion, has any more of that antidote on hand.
> 
> IOW is Myrcella _actually_ dead from poison?


When Ellaria drank the antidote, I was wondering the same thing. They made a point of showing Bronn drinking the same antidote in an earlier episode.

Doran is portrayed as a calculating strategist, and he wants to avoid all out war with the Lannisters. He learned of Ellaria's plan, and somehow managed to get Tyene to be his inside girl. I don't think her flirtatious love bite on Bronn was for fun. I think she slipped the antidote into his pocket, which he will find at the last moment.

Of course, this is GoT, so I see very little chance of that actually happening.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Fixer said:


> When Ellaria drank the antidote, I was wondering the same thing. They made a point of showing Bronn drinking the same antidote in an earlier episode.
> 
> Doran is portrayed as a calculating strategist, and he wants to avoid all out war with the Lannisters. He learned of Ellaria's plan, and somehow managed to get Tyene to be his inside girl. I don't think her flirtatious love bite on Bronn was for fun. I think she slipped the antidote into his pocket, which he will find at the last moment.
> 
> Of course, this is GoT, so I see very little chance of that actually happening.


They showed the antidote to convey that Ellaria had poisoned her own lips and had the antidote ready.

Bronn is on that boat, so if Jamie has any doubt on what killed Mycella, Bronn will tell him. War will be coming.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I think the writer is an Idiot. He starts the show with the Starks so we get to know and like them then he kills them off before the show is over. I know everyone is bad or evil but you need to like someone on a show to keep the audience interested. Most of my friends said they are threw with the show since everyone they liked is dead. lol


Maybe this is not the show for you and your friends.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

All I have to say is if they used a body double for Cersei's naked walk then kudos to them and film making technology cause I never would have known for a second it wasn't Lena Headley OR her head on someone else's body.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Cainebj said:


> All I have to say is if they used a body double for Cersei's naked walk then kudos to them and film making technology cause I never would have known for a second it wasn't Lena Headley OR her head on someone else's body.


Wait there was a head in those scenes? 

But yea that is pretty sweet technology!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I think the writer is an Idiot. He starts the show with the Starks so we get to know and like them then he kills them off before the show is over. I know everyone is bad or evil but you need to like someone on a show to keep the audience interested. Most of my friends said they are threw with the show since everyone they liked is dead. lol


Would it help you to know that the reason GRRM wrote it that way was that he was a bit tired of limitations of writing for TV, and he wanted to write something that (he thought) couldn't possibly be turned into a successful TV show?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

What is even more annoying about the poisoned kiss is how stupid of a move it was. Trystane is on that boat. She as good as killed the prince; which I assume she loves very much.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pjenkins said:


> He was in the group that watched her come into the keep wasn't he?





BeanMeScot said:


> I didn't notice him there. Of course, I was paying more attention to the Franken Mountain.


Yes, he was absolutely standing there.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> What is even more annoying about the poisoned kiss is how stupid of a move it was. Trystane is on that boat. She as good as killed the prince; which I assume she loves very much.


Why do you assume that? We know she has nothing but withering contempt for his father...


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Cainebj said:


> All I have to say is if they used a body double for Cersei's naked walk then kudos to them and film making technology cause I never would have known for a second it wasn't Lena Headley OR her head on someone else's body.


They've been pretty clear there was various digital and camera assistance to her since she was pregnant at the time it was filmed.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I think the writer is an Idiot. He starts the show with the Starks so we get to know and like them then he kills them off before the show is over. I know everyone is bad or evil but you need to like someone on a show to keep the audience interested. Most of my friends said they are threw with the show since everyone they liked is dead. lol


Well. I don't think the writer is an idiot, but you have a point about keeping key characters to hold the viewers interest and the list of those characters is dwindling quickly.

So, how many of those people introduced in the first season are still around? Dany, Jorah, Tyrion, Varys, Balish, Arya, Sansa, Theon, Cersi, Tommen, Jaime, and maybe (Cersi's Daughter?) and Jon Snow?

Did I miss any? Also, out of those who could get the crown of Westeros in the end, assuming it's not going to be a newcomer that swoops in in the last season?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

fl_gulfer said:


> i think the writer is an *idiot*. He starts the show with the starks so we get to know and like them then he kills them off before the show is over. I know everyone is bad or evil but you need to like someone on a show to keep the audience interested. Most of my friends said they are *threw* with the show since everyone they liked is dead. Lol


:d


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

robojerk said:


> The possible fate of Jon Snow...
> 
> He'll recuperate somehow. Arrow did it, why not him.
> Melisandra will bring him back to life, either because she believes he's Azor Ahai or some other reason.
> ...


I give up. What the heck is Azor Ahai? if it was mentioned on the show, I didn't catch it. If it's a book thing, I don't want to know (you can just say it's a book thing).



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Why do you assume that? We know she has nothing but withering contempt for his father...


She is mad at his father because he won't start a war. By all indications, they are a loving family and Oberyn was tight with his brother. I see no reason why she would not have anything but love for her "nephew".


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> So, how many of those people introduced in the first season are still around? Dany, Jorah, Tyrion, Varys, Balish, Arya, Sansa, Theon, Cersi, Tommen, Jaime, and maybe (Cersi's Daughter?) and Jon Snow?


You forgot Bran. In fact, the entire reason he


> is not going to be cast this entire season


 is so that they don't accidentally kill him off too.

There's also Rickon and Sam. And then some characters you probably care about less: Loras, Alliser Throne, The Mountain, Bronn, Pycelle, Jaqen, Gendry. And of course, there's the animal cast...The Dragons, Ghost, [edit: Nymeria, not Lady] (we assume she's alive and running wild somewhere), and Bran and Rickon's wolves.

And of course Hodor...let's not forget him. Maybe well end with him on the Iron Throne.

And speaking of characters that are or may be alive...I wonder if we are now through with Benjen Stark. I figured there was a reason for his mysterious disappearance, and I figured the reason was that he would turn up (in one form or another) later. Was his only remaining role to be the part he played in Jon's death (which seemed sort of silly to me...why didn't they all just barge into Jon's quarters and kill him there.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I give up. What the heck is Azor Ahai? if it was mentioned on the show, I didn't catch it. If it's a book thing, I don't want to know (you can just say it's a book thing).


It's a book thing. Not only do I have a pretty great memory of the show, but I've also read a lot online of the back story of Westeros and the various houses, and even then I still hadn't heard about Azor Ahai until 2 or 3 weeks ago.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> She is mad at his father because he won't start a war. By all indications, they are a loving family and Oberyn was tight with his brother. I see no reason why she would not have anything but love for her "nephew".


I've seen not the slightest hint that she has any warm feelings whatsoever for her nephew, and plenty of strong hints that she loathes and despises her brother.

Maybe she really does love Trystane, although as I said, we have no way of knowing that. But you'll never convince me she loves Doran! She rebelled against him, and you could see her rage and frustration when she was forced to submit. She thinks he's less than a man and doesn't deserve to rule.


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## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I think the writer is an Idiot. He starts the show with the Starks so we get to know and like them then he kills them off before the show is over. I know everyone is bad or evil but you need to like someone on a show to keep the audience interested. Most of my friends said they are threw with the show since everyone they liked is dead. lol


You are a victim of the GOT cycle....


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Maybe she really does love Trystane, although as I said, we have no way of knowing that. But you'll never convince me she loves Doran! She rebelled against him, and you could see her rage and frustration when she was forced to submit. She thinks he's less than a man and doesn't deserve to rule.


She should be dead 14 seconds after the news arrives by Raven Express.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

So assuming Myrcella dies (and I see no reason the writers would save her with the antidote next season), that's another death Cersei will blame on Tyrion (since he was the one who sent her off to Dorne)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> So assuming Myrcella dies (and I see no reason the writers would save her with the antidote next season), that's another death Cersei will blame on Tyrion (since he was the one who sent her off to Dorne)


If Tyrion really does return to Westeros in the company of a Targaryen, an army, and dragons, I suspect that will be the least that people will hold against him...


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I give up. What the heck is Azor Ahai? if it was mentioned on the show, I didn't catch it. If it's a book thing, I don't want to know (you can just say it's a book thing).


That's who Stannis was supposed to be. The pet of the Lord of Light.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Anubys said:


> I give up. What the heck is Azor Ahai? if it was mentioned on the show, I didn't catch it. If it's a book thing, I don't want to know (you can just say it's a book thing).
> .


I put the answer in spoilers in my thread a day or two ago about this prophet. Without spoiling the future he is known in the past to be the savior that defeated the White Walkers the first time around thousands of years ago. He is prophesied to return, so The Red Queen thought Stannis was him reborn. They do talk about him in the show, but they refer to him as The Prince that Was Promised, The Son of Fire, or the Warrior of Light. If you listen to the Lord of Light followers his story is told in pieces and brought up here and there throughout the show.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> That's who Stannis was supposed to be. The pet of the Lord of Light.


Although in Anubys's defense, I'm not sure we've ever heard the name Azor Ahai in an actual episode (he did get mention in one of the Blu-ray season add-ons, I think Season 3)


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> So assuming Myrcella dies (and I see no reason the writers would save her with the antidote next season), that's another death Cersei will blame on Tyrion (since he was the one who sent her off to Dorne)


None of this would have happened if Oberyn had just skipped doing the Ali Shuffle and killed the Mountain like he should have.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

nickels said:


> I put the answer in spoilers in my thread a day or two ago about this prophet. Without spoiling the future he is known in the past to be the savior that defeated the White Walkers the first time around thousands of years ago. He is prophesied to return, so The Red Queen thought Stannis was him reborn. They do talk about him in the show, but they refer to him as The Prince that Was Promised, The Son of Fire, or the Warrior of Light. If you listen to the Lord of Light followers his story is told in pieces and brought up here and there throughout the show.


In that case, I predict the Lord of Light who defeats the White Walkers will be Samwell with the dragon glass.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> The Dragons, Ghost, *Lady* (we assume she's alive and running wild somewhere), and Bran and Rickon's wolves.


Nymeria, Lady is dead.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> And speaking of characters that are or may be alive...I wonder if we are now through with Benjen Stark. I figured there was a reason for his mysterious disappearance, and I figured the reason was that he would turn up (in one form or another) later. Was his only remaining role to be the part he played in Jon's death (which seemed sort of silly to me...why didn't they all just barge into Jon's quarters and kill him there.


I'm not convinced he's gone.

The fact that beloved characters keep dying is what I like about this show. It still kills me to see them go, but it's like avoiding spoilers: I have no idea what's going to happen. On a "normal" show it doesn't matter how much trouble the main characters get into, you know they're safe. Here the sky's the limit.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

getreal said:


> In that case, I predict the Lord of Light who defeats the White Walkers will be Samwell with the dragon glass.


For some reason this sentence sounded like Clue to me.

No! It'll be.... Tyrion. With Longclaw. At the Twins!


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

A lengthy, and pretty convincing, criticism of this season in the NYT. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/a...rones-finale-a-breakdown-in-storytelling.html Could it be becoming Lost 2?

"And Game of Thrones has been defined by that stretching  a lot happened in Season 5, but when you look at the overall framework, nearly all the characters are where they were when the season began. The usurping Boltons are still in Winterfell; Sansa is still on the run; Arya is still hiding in Braavos; the dragon queen Daenerys Targaryen and the sly dwarf, Tyrion, are still marooned in Essos; the Lannisters still occupy the castle in Kings Landing. This can be blamed on the shows semidependent relationship with Mr. Martins novels, but viewers (like me) who havent read the books dont care about that. The question is how much longer well care at all."


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Robin said:


> I'm not convinced he's gone.
> 
> The fact that beloved characters keep dying is what I like about this show. It still kills me to see them go, but it's like avoiding spoilers: I have no idea what's going to happen. On a "normal" show it doesn't matter how much trouble the main characters get into, you know they're safe. Here the sky's the limit.





Spoiler


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Anubys said:


> I give up. What the heck is Azor Ahai? if it was mentioned on the show, I didn't catch it. If it's a book thing, I don't want to know (you can just say it's a book thing).





LordKronos said:


> It's a book thing. Not only do I have a pretty great memory of the show, but I've also read a lot online of the back story of Westeros and the various houses, and even then I still hadn't heard about Azor Ahai until 2 or 3 weeks ago.





kaszeta said:


> Although in Anubys's defense, I'm not sure we've ever heard the name Azor Ahai in an actual episode (he did get mention in one of the Blu-ray season add-ons, I think Season 3)


Sorry guys.. My memory is not good enough to distinguish show from books, which is why I don't post in these threads too often. I know on the show Melisandre called Stannis a bunch of names so I believed Azor Ahai was one of them. However if the name has never been mentioned on the show it just makes that idea even weaker, so it's _probably_ a moot spoiler. Kind of like a lot of other things that happened in books but never happened or will happen in the show.
Once again sorry.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> Nymeria, Lady is dead.


oops. got the names mixed up. I corrected it. thanks.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I was thinking last night, Cersai has lost 2 out of 3 of her children, what would happen if Tommen bit it.

I mean who would have a rightful claim to the throne then? All the Baratheon's would be gone, and considering how little rights and privileges women have I could see the three queens Margeary, Cersai, and Daenerys all having equal claims. Starting a war between the Tyrell's and Lannisters.

Now who would kill Tommen and why, I started thinking and Littlefinger came to mind. He excels in chaos. I think his plan would be named warden of the north by Tommen after he defeats the Boltons, and he is already warden of the vale (until Robin Arryn comes of age). Two of the seven kingdoms would be under his control. After he is named Warden, Tommen would be of no use to him and be an obstacle for his quest for the Iron Throne.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Bob Coxner said:


> A lengthy, and pretty convincing, criticism of this season in the NYT. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/a...rones-finale-a-breakdown-in-storytelling.html Could it be becoming Lost 2?
> 
> "And Game of Thrones has been defined by that stretching  a lot happened in Season 5, but when you look at the overall framework, nearly all the characters are where they were when the season began. The usurping Boltons are still in Winterfell; Sansa is still on the run; Arya is still hiding in Braavos; the dragon queen Daenerys Targaryen and the sly dwarf, Tyrion, are still marooned in Essos; the Lannisters still occupy the castle in Kings Landing. This can be blamed on the shows semidependent relationship with Mr. Martins novels, but viewers (like me) who havent read the books dont care about that. The question is how much longer well care at all."


Couldn't you say the same thing about season 2? Joffrey is still in power. Dany still wandering in Essos. Robb still battling with Tywin. Stannis still after the Iron Throne.

You don't judge a story by what didn't happen. You judge it by what did happen. And I think one of the main themes this season has been accompishments leading to failure. Jon got the wildlings south of the wall and discovered a lot about the White Walkers, and he died for it all. Cersei advanced in her vandetta against the Tyrells, and it backfired on her. Stannis built his army up, only to have it all fall apart on him piece by piece. Dany learned a lot about how to rule people, only to have them turn on her and try to kill her. Jamie is off to save his daughter, gets there in the nick of time, only to have her wind up dead anyway.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Couldn't you say the same thing about season 2? Joffrey is still in power. Dany still wandering in Essos. Robb still battling with Tywin. Stannis still after the Iron Throne.
> 
> You don't judge a story by what didn't happen. You judge it by what did happen. And I think one of the main themes this season has been accompishments leading to failure. Jon got the wildlings south of the wall and discovered a lot about the White Walkers, and he died for it all. Cersei advanced in her vandetta against the Tyrells, and it backfired on her. Stannis built his army up, only to have it all fall apart on him piece by piece. Dany learned a lot about how to rule people, only to have them turn on her and try to kill her. Jamie is off to save his daughter, gets there in the nick of time, only to have her wind up dead anyway.


Or, to rephrase it, this season was full of failure.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

robojerk said:


> I mean who would have a rightful claim to the throne then? All the Baratheon's would be gone, and considering how little rights and privileges women have I could see the three queens Margeary, Cersai, and Daenerys all having equal claims. Starting a war between the Tyrell's and Lannisters.


??? Margaery and Cersei have zero claim. Daenerys probably has the best of anybody at this point (since Tommen technically has no claim either, although that hasn't come into play...yet).

You don't get a claim to the throne by marrying a king. You get it by having royal blood (or by conquering the kingdom, as Robert did).


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Bob Coxner said:


> A lengthy, and pretty convincing, criticism of this season in the NYT. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/a...rones-finale-a-breakdown-in-storytelling.html Could it be becoming Lost 2?


Not a chance.



Bob Coxner said:


> "And "Game of Thrones" has been defined by that stretching - a lot happened in Season 5, but when you look at the overall framework, nearly all the characters are where they were when the season began. The usurping Boltons are still in Winterfell; Sansa is still on the run; Arya is still hiding in Braavos; the dragon queen Daenerys Targaryen and the sly dwarf, Tyrion, are still marooned in Essos; the Lannisters still occupy the castle in King's Landing. This can be blamed on the show's semidependent relationship with Mr. Martin's novels, but viewers (like me) who haven't read the books don't care about that. The question is how much longer we'll care at all."


The Boltons are Wardens of the North by Royal Decree. They just faced their first test and won pretty handily.

Sansa is in Winterfell, not "on the run". She's home. Her jump from the castle walls will enable her to sync up with Brienne and kick Bolton ass.

Arya isn't in hiding, she's in training.

Tyrion isn't marooned in Essos, he's found the queen and starting down the path to take back Westeros which was his plan along with Varys after his escape.

I question whether the article writer really understands what is going on, it doesn't seem like it.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

allan said:


> Or, to rephrase it, this season was full of failure.


Yes, it was indeed. But that doesn't mean the season itself was a failure. If everything stayed where it was, and we were starting season 6 in the same place, then maybe. But we have brought many stories to a close, and have a host of new stories setup for next year.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ??? Margaery and Cersei have zero claim.


Well, if Margaery can quickly get herself knocked up....

Or for that matter, if Cersei can do the same: "look, another of King Robert's kids....looks just like the rest. It's a miracle."


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

This season was like season 1 for me. Started off slow but redeemed itself in the second half


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I've had an earworm since Sunday.

My daddy knows I'm a good girl...


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I really am curious to hear more people's opinions on book storylines likely to still be covered by future episodes. I've been holding off on reading ANY of the book threads for fear of spoiling anything. If we now know pretty much the same as book readers, I'm interested in going back and reading all 5 seasons' book-related companion threads.

Personally, I don't care much about spoiling backstory, so if I read some history that happened hundreds or thousands of years ago, and then next season they reveal that history in some dialog, I won't be bothered. On the other hand, if the book is further ahead on Bran's or Littlefinger's or whoever's story, that's not something I'l want to spoil


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I read the books to get a better understanding of the characters, relationships, and history. I'd recommend it for that alone. At this point, I don't think there's much spoilery stuff to worry about


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> I've had an earworm since Sunday.
> 
> My daddy knows I'm a good girl...


More confusing than the Ahi zari/whatever discussion...


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> More confusing than the Ahi zari/whatever discussion...


OK, so I'm not the only one. good to know


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Who cares who has a "rightful" claim to the throne? That doesn't matter. If it did, this show would be pretty boring.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

robojerk said:


> I mean who would have a rightful claim to the throne then?


Gendry and Dany are the two best claims I could see.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Who cares who has a "rightful" claim to the throne? That doesn't matter. If it did, this show would be pretty boring.


Well, it does matter who can make a claim to the throne without everybody bursting out in laughter.

Which is what would happen if Cersei or Margaery gave it a try. Putting their claims in the same class as Daenerys is just plain silly.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

kaszeta said:


> Gendry and Dany are the two best claims I could see.


Gendry is a bastard. No rights unless granted full inheritance by the king.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

You should really tell the various Kingdoms in the world that nobody cares who belongs on the throne. It's been a rather important matter for much of human history.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, it does matter who can make a claim to the throne without everybody bursting out in laughter.
> 
> Which is what would happen if Cersei or Margaery gave it a try. Putting their claims in the same class as Daenerys is just plain silly.


If they have an army to back it up, anyone can make a claim. We already saw this. Who has any army anymore in this show, by the way? I am not even clear. Is there any army at King's Landing that could actually defend anything anymore? Aside from Tommen, it seems like the people of Dorne, The White Walkers, and maybe Daenerys are the only people whose "claim" is worth anything at this point because they could actually do anything to take the throne.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, it does matter who can make a claim to the throne without everybody bursting out in laughter.
> 
> Which is what would happen if Cersei or Margaery gave it a try. Putting their claims in the same class as Daenerys is just plain silly.


I'm not so sure a deposed family has any better claim. At that point, it really is just who has the power to persuade the people. If anyone chooses to support Dany, I doubt many of them will do so simply because she's a Targaryen.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

If I understand it, Stannis, as the ranking Baratheon, was the only truly legitimate King. With him and Renley gone, Dany's probably next in line, though I don't know the status of ex-royal families, especially since Dany's female.

At this point, there probably is no "legitimate" anymore, other than who has the biggest army.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Cersei keeps saying that _she's_ the queen, which is like Nancy Reagan saying that she's the First Lady.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

robojerk said:


> Now who would kill Tommen and why, I started thinking and Littlefinger came to mind. He excels in chaos. I think his plan would be named warden of the north by Tommen after he defeats the Boltons, and he is already warden of the vale (until Robin Arryn comes of age). Two of the seven kingdoms would be under his control. After he is named Warden, Tommen would be of no use to him and be an obstacle for his quest for the Iron Throne.


Cercei ought to kill the little bastid for leaving her imprisoned for so long.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> I'm not so sure a deposed family has any better claim. At that point, it really is just who has the power to persuade the people. If anyone chooses to support Dany, I doubt many of them will do so simply because she's a Targaryen.


But she has _a_ claim...she's the daughter of a king. Who else can say that?

Yes, armies are great for ruling by conquest. But for ruling by right, you have Dany and...well, I think you have Dany. I can't think of anybody else who has royal blood, unless I'm forgetting somebody. And having a claim is pretty dang important, if you don't have a madman on the throne who's trying to kill everybody and thus can unite everybody against him.

If Dany has her royal blood, her dragons, and an army (with bonus points for Tyrion ), then she has the potential for both right and conquest. It's hard to see how anybody else wins, assuming she doesn't screw things up (which of course she will, repeatedly, but who will screw up last?).


allan said:


> If I understand it, Stannis, as the ranking Baratheon, was the only truly legitimate King. With him and Renley gone, Dany's probably next in line, though I don't know the status of ex-royal families, especially since Dany's female.


The only ex-royal family is the Targaryens, who were massacred with the Mad King was deposed. The only (known) survivor is Dany.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> Who has any army anymore in this show, by the way? I am not even clear. Is there any army at King's Landing that could actually defend anything anymore? Aside from Tommen, it seems like the people of Dorne, The White Walkers, and maybe Daenerys are the only people whose "claim" is worth anything at this point because they could actually do anything to take the throne.


Army wise, the Tyrell's still massively outnumber anyone else (living). They were well over 50k at the time of blackwater. Lannisters were under 20k. I'm not aware of any Baratheon army specifically, other than the Kings Guard, which numbered under 10k. When the North united under Robb, they had something like 20k men combined (and many of them died).

The wildcard here is Dorne. I dont believe we've heard a single peep about the size of their Army. And the Dothraki. There were something like 40k men under Drogo. Whether they fractured after his death, or reunited under a new Kahl, I don't know. The only thing I think we knew is that Jorah said they'd fight for the role of new Kahl as soon as Drogo died, and then they were all just gone. If they are united, and Dany somehow regains that army, then that could be the 2nd largest (or possibly 3rd to Dorne)


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> Gendry is a bastard. No rights unless granted full inheritance by the king.


Cersei was concerned enough about his possible claims that she attempted to have him hunted down and killed.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> Cersei was concerned enough about his possible claims that she attempted to have him hunted down and killed.


Was that because of his claim or because he is living evidence of the strong Baratheon gene thing?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

The only other true claims to the throne would be Robert's bastards of whom Gendry is the eldest and male. As far as any non-bastards with best claim, we only have Dany, now.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

TAsunder said:


> Was that because of his claim or because he is living evidence of the strong Baratheon gene thing?


I think the latter which would call into question Tommen and Joffrey's dad and give credence to the 'rumors' about her and Jamie.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> Cersei was concerned enough about his possible claims that she attempted to have him hunted down and killed.


I believe that was true in the books, but in the TV show it was Joffrey who did that.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> The only other true claims to the throne would be Robert's bastards of whom Gendry is the eldest and male. As far as any non-bastards with best claim, we only have Dany, now.


In this universe, can a bastard have a claim if there is no one around to officially give them the family name? Seems like they place heavy significance on that aspect.


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> Was that because of his claim or because he is living evidence of the strong Baratheon gene thing?


That was my memory*, as well. Not that they had a claim on the throne, but that they were a possible threat to the secret of Joffrey's true parentage.

*My memory admittedly being much less reliable than it once was.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

A guy at work said he felt like the season didn't really go anywhere, and everyone was still in basically the same state as the start of the season. Others chimed in and said they felt the same way in the earlier seasons, and quit watching because of it.

That was a real head-scratcher for me.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> In this universe, can a bastard have a claim if there is no one around to officially give them the family name? Seems like they place heavy significance on that aspect.


Tommen would have to legitimize him and, of course, he never would as he would then supercede Tommen's claim. Plus, I doubt Gendry has any interest in the throne. He wasn't raised to rule. He was raised as a blacksmith.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

robojerk said:


> Sorry guys.. My memory is not good enough to distinguish show from books, which is why I don't post in these threads too often. *I know on the show Melisandre called Stannis a bunch of names so I believed Azor Ahai was one of them.* However if the name has never been mentioned on the show it just makes that idea even weaker, so it's _probably_ a moot spoiler. Kind of like a lot of other things that happened in books but never happened or will happen in the show.
> Once again sorry.


Azor Ahai is really the key to the entire show. They refer to him as many names over the past 5 seasons, they just never sat and discussed the lore in detail. With the White Walkers having the biggest army and being the most dangerous, finding the reborn "Warrior of Light" has got to be where the remainder of the show is heading. Who cares who controls any of the areas of Westeros once Winter and the long night arrive with the White Walkers? Who sits on the Iron Throne will soon be pointless. Melisandre mistook Stannis for Azor Ahai, and I thought she was going back to the Wall realizing it was really Jon Snow. So much for that...

This is worth the read no spoilers just clarification:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/The_Prince_That_Was_Promised



> "The Prince That Was Promised", also known as the Son of Fire and Warrior of Light, is a mythic figure in the religion of the Lord of Light. According to prophecy, the Prince That Was Promised would be reborn "amidst salt and smoke" and pull a flaming sword from the flames, Lightbringer, to combat the coming darkness.
> 
> According to Lady Melisandre, priestess of the Lord of Light, Stannis Baratheon is the prophesied Prince.
> 
> Another Red Priestess, this one in Volantis, preaches to a group of slaves that Daenerys Targaryen is their prophesied savior.


They don't say his name, but Azor Ahai is considered to be the one referred to by all of those names and titles.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Army wise, the Tyrell's still massively outnumber anyone else (living). They were well over 50k at the time of blackwater. Lannisters were under 20k. I'm not aware of any Baratheon army specifically, other than the Kings Guard, which numbered under 10k. When the North united under Robb, they had something like 20k men combined (and many of them died).
> 
> The wildcard here is Dorne. I dont believe we've heard a single peep about the size of their Army. And the Dothraki. There were something like 40k men under Drogo. Whether they fractured after his death, or reunited under a new Kahl, I don't know. The only thing I think we knew is that Jorah said they'd fight for the role of new Kahl as soon as Drogo died, and then they were all just gone. If they are united, and Dany somehow regains that army, then that could be the 2nd largest (or possibly 3rd to Dorne)


So the Tyrells have the biggest army and control the food supply and their queen was imprisoned, and their only response was to make sure Cersei was imprisoned and then seemingly do nothing of note for weeks/months while their queen remained imprisoned?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

nickels said:


> Azor Ahai is really the key to the entire show. They refer to him as many names over the past 5 seasons, they just never sat and discussed the lore in detail. With the White Walkers having the biggest army and being the most dangerous, finding the reborn "Warrior of Light" has got to be where the remainder of the show is heading. Who cares who controls any of the areas of Westeros once Winter and the long night arrive with the White Walkers? Who sits on the Iron Throne will soon be pointless. Melisandre mistook Stannis for Azor Ahai, and I thought she was going back to the Wall realizing it was really Jon Snow. So much for that...
> 
> This is worth the read no spoilers just clarification:
> http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/The_Prince_That_Was_Promised
> ...


Dany actually could pull a sword from the flames, if she wanted to.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

BeanMeScot said:


> The only other true claims to the throne would be Robert's bastards of whom Gendry is the eldest and male. As far as any non-bastards with best claim, we only have Dany, now.


Bastards have no claim.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

TAsunder said:


> So the Tyrells have the biggest army and control the food supply and their queen was imprisoned, and their only response was to make sure Cersei was imprisoned and then seemingly do nothing of note for weeks/months while their queen remained imprisoned?


The head of the Tyrells has been shown to be a complete buffoon and isn't even in the country having gone to the Iron Bank. While Olenna holds power and influence, she doesn't actually control the armies, so that might help explain their inactions. They do, also, report to the King and Tommen has (at Cersei's suggestion) ordered them to do nothing.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> Bastards have no claim.


To be fair here, what we've been told are general rules that apply most of the time. What we haven't been told are what rules exist (and how the rules are interpreted) in very special circumstances like we currently have. You have a king who deposed the previous royal family (and it's been like 20 years since then), who has no rightful heirs. At this point, do you return to the previous monarchy, who has only a female descendent? Do you trace the Baratheon family tree up before Robert to find any blood relative, even though Robert was the initial claimant in their family? Do you consider bastards of the King? Wipe the slate clean and start from scratch?

I honestly wouldn't presume to say which of those is the right or accepted answer for westeros.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> Bastards have no claim.


They do if they are legitimized. See Ramsay Bolton (Snow).


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

LordKronos said:


> To be fair here, what we've been told are general rules that apply most of the time. What we haven't been told are what rules exist (and how the rules are interpreted) in very special circumstances like we currently have. You have a king who deposed the previous royal family (and it's been like 20 years since then), who has no rightful heirs. At this point, do you return to the previous monarchy, who has only a female descendent? Do you trace the Baratheon family tree up before Robert to find any blood relative, even though Robert was the initial claimant in their family? Do you consider bastards of the King? Wipe the slate clean and start from scratch?
> 
> I honestly wouldn't presume to say which of those is the right or accepted answer for westeros.


I guess anything is possible, but everything the show has said is, bastards have no claims unless royally decreed to have the family name.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> The head of the Tyrells has been shown to be a complete buffoon and isn't even in the country having gone to the Iron Bank. While Olenna holds power and influence, she doesn't actually control the armies, so that might help explain their inactions. They do, also, report to the King and Tommen has (at Cersei's suggestion) ordered them to do nothing.


Also, how exactly do you think Kings Landing would respond if they saw even a smallish army marching towards them? They'd close the gates, and the Tyrell's would have to fight their way in. And then they'd have to fight their way to Margaery and Loras, all the while hoping that the sparrows don't kill them first.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

brianp6621 said:


> I guess anything is possible, but everything the show has said is, bastards have no claims unless royally decreed to have the family name.


Wouldn't have to be a King's decree if enough of the lords got behind the candidate.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> They've been pretty clear there was various digital and camera assistance to her since she was pregnant at the time it was filmed.


Is Jamie or Lancel the father?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> To be fair here, what we've been told are general rules that apply most of the time. What we haven't been told are what rules exist (and how the rules are interpreted) in very special circumstances like we currently have. You have a king who deposed the previous royal family (and it's been like 20 years since then), who has no rightful heirs. At this point, do you return to the previous monarchy, who has only a female descendent? Do you trace the Baratheon family tree up before Robert to find any blood relative, even though Robert was the initial claimant in their family? Do you consider bastards of the King? Wipe the slate clean and start from scratch?
> 
> I honestly wouldn't presume to say which of those is the right or accepted answer for westeros.


If you trace the Baratheon tree up you'll find Aegon V Targaryen(Egg), Maester Aemon's brother and Dany's great-grandfather.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> More confusing than the Ahi zari/whatever discussion...


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Love Maise Williams' Twitter feed about the finale

Maisie Williams ✔@Maisie_Williams
@geeemma_vale @GameOfThrones 
I DNT CARE ABUT UR SILLY FEKIN NIGHTS WATCH OMG STAHP STABBIN JON SNOOOO

http://mashable.com/2015/06/16/maisie-williams-game-of-thrones-finale/?utm_cid=mash-com-fb-main-link


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> If you trace the Baratheon tree up you'll find Aegon V Targaryen(Egg), Maester Aemon's brother and Dany's great-grandfather.


???? The Baratheon family is descended from the Targaryen family?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> ???? The Baratheon family is descended from the Targaryen family?





Spoiler



Robert's grandmother is Rhaelle Targaryen, sister to Jaehaerys II, Dany's grandfather. Aegon V(Egg) is their father.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> ???? The Baratheon family is descended from the Targaryen family?


Interesting...just looked it up (spoilered because it's history not covered by the show)


Spoiler



You have to trace back 280 years to find the trees POSSIBLY merge.

"House Baratheon was founded by Orys Baratheon, a general in the army of King Aegon I Targaryen, the Conqueror. Orys Baratheon was also rumored to be Aegon's bastard half-brother."

Also

"It was decided that Robert, as the military leader of the rebellion and also the one with the best blood-claim to the Iron Throne, would become King"

Note that the "best blood claim" was the fact that he is descended from someone RUMORED to be a bastard.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

kaszeta said:


> Cersei was concerned enough about his possible claims that she attempted to have him hunted down and killed.


It was Jeffy who sent the killers, which surprised Cersei. What entered into the risk was the existence of Robert's bastards all having black hair would expose Jeffy as not being his son.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Interesting...just looked it up (spoilered because it's history not covered by the show)
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegon_V

Scroll down to " Descendants"


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

robojerk said:


> The possible fate of Jon Snow...
> He worgs into Ghost before he dies. The rest of the series Jon will be the dire wolf, unless Ghost dies. It also makes Ghost a fitting name.[/LIST]


How about Drogon flies across the Narrow Sea and Jon wargs into him. 

Seriously, I like the idea that he walks out of the fire like Dany because he's Targarian. But Dany wasn't dead when she went into the fire.....



LordKronos said:


> I'm not so sure a deposed family has any better claim. At that point, it really is just who has the power to persuade the people. If anyone chooses to support Dany, I doubt many of them will do so simply because she's a Targaryen.


I wonder how much news from across the Narrow Sea is actually heard by the common people? If people hear about Dany freeing slaves and what a good ruler she is, they may welcome her with open arms like her brother always said.



LordKronos said:


> The wildcard here is Dorne. I dont believe we've heard a single peep about the size of their Army. And the Dothraki. There were something like 40k men under Drogo. Whether they fractured after his death, or reunited under a new Kahl, I don't know. The only thing I think we knew is that Jorah said they'd fight for the role of new Kahl as soon as Drogo died, and then they were all just gone. If they are united, and Dany somehow regains that army, then that could be the 2nd largest (or possibly 3rd to Dorne)


I thought the Dothraki had numerous tribes and Khal Drogo was just one of them. I think there are others wandering around, but remember that the Dothraki are dead set against putting their horses on ships. Plus, not a good idea to take on an army of wildmen that you can't control. What would happen if they won?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I wonder how much news from across the Narrow Sea is actually heard by the common people? If people hear about Dany freeing slaves and what a good ruler she is, they may welcome her with open arms like her brother always said.


As somebody said earlier in the show (Bron?), "the people" couldn't care less. It's the nobility that cares who sits at the top.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

JYoung said:


> Is Jamie or Lancel the father?


If you're joking, then ha! Good one.

If not, it's the actress that was pregnant, not the character. Although now that you bring it up, that would be an interesting situation for Cersei, wouldn't it?


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Fixer said:


> Doran is portrayed as a calculating strategist, and he wants to avoid all out war with the Lannisters. He learned of Ellaria's plan, and somehow managed to get Tyene to be his inside girl. I don't think her flirtatious love bite on Bronn was for fun. I think she slipped the antidote into his pocket, which he will find at the last moment.


Doran is in charge. If he learned of Ellaria's plan he would have stopped it before it happened and had her killed.



cheesesteak said:


> None of this would have happened if Oberyn had just skipped doing the Ali Shuffle and killed the Mountain like he should have.


And Ellaria has no business blaming the Lannisters. _Oberyn chose to be in a fight to the death. He lost._


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

ej42137 said:


> If you're joking, then ha! Good one.
> 
> If not, it's the actress that was pregnant, not the character. Although now that you bring it up, that would be an interesting situation for Cersei, wouldn't it?


Of course I was joking.

However, if GRMM decided to write in the pregnancy (which I doubt he would), I could see Cersi publicly claiming it's a miracle child from Robert.

(Truth be told, I think that too much time has passed for it to be either.)


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> They've been pretty clear there was various digital and camera assistance to her since she was pregnant at the time it was filmed.


By all accounts, that scene was filmed last November. Her baby is due in about two weeks. That means Lena Headey was less than two months along at that time that scene was filmed. Most women aren't showing at all that early in their pregnancy. Sounds to me like she just didn't want to do the nudity (can't blame her) and used the pregnancy as an excuse.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Of course I was joking.
> 
> However, if GRMM decided to write in the pregnancy (which I doubt he would), I could see Cersi publicly claiming it's a miracle child from Robert.
> 
> (Truth be told, I think that too much time has passed for it to be either.)


Right - it's been years at this point.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

MonsterJoe said:


> Right - it's been years at this point.


It's just been fall. Winter hasn't even started!


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> By all accounts, that scene was filmed last November. Her baby is due in about two weeks. That means Lena Headey was less than two months along at that time that scene was filmed. Most women aren't showing at all that early in their pregnancy. Sounds to me like she just didn't want to do the nudity (can't blame her) and used the pregnancy as an excuse.


She's showing.
















Guess why are her hands are folded there?

BTW, the Walk of Shame was telegraphed. Remember two episodes back when the High Septon asked the visiting Cersei how regal she would be if she was stripped of her fine clothes and golden hair?

Wasn't she supposed be shaved bald? I guess there was no way to special effects a bald cap.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Sounds to me like she just didn't want to do the nudity (can't blame her) and used the pregnancy as an excuse.


*SHAME!*


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)




----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Aside from the fact that he is a bastard, lack of support or any military to fight for him, Gendry has one other major obstacle: he can't prove who his father is.

Any bastard can stand up and say his father was the king. Nobody will believe him.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

nickels said:


> Azor Ahai is really the key to the entire show. They refer to him as many names over the past 5 seasons, they just never sat and discussed the lore in detail. With the White Walkers having the biggest army and being the most dangerous, finding the reborn "Warrior of Light" has got to be where the remainder of the show is heading. Who cares who controls any of the areas of Westeros once Winter and the long night arrive with the White Walkers? Who sits on the Iron Throne will soon be pointless. Melisandre mistook Stannis for Azor Ahai, and I thought she was going back to the Wall realizing it was really Jon Snow. So much for that...
> 
> This is worth the read no spoilers just clarification:
> http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/The_Prince_That_Was_Promised
> ...


This all makes sense now. I do recall a scene where Stannis had to perform some sort of ceremony with a flaming sword. It all looked "forced". Stannis was going through the motions to satisfy Mellisandre.

Now it's clear that she was trying to force the prophecy to fit Stannis.

Thanks for this. This clears up all my confusion!


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Anubys said:


> Aside from the fact that he is a bastard, lack of support or any military to fight for him, Gendry has one other major obstacle: he can't prove who his father is.
> 
> Any bastard can stand up and say his father was the king. Nobody will believe him.


I don't get all the Gendry talk, he is a very minor character with little screen time (or book time).

He is a non issue.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> I don't get all the Gendry talk, he is a very minor character with little screen time (or book time).
> 
> He is a non issue.


Yeah, he was important in the intrigue surrounding Cersei's kids' paternity. And in that context, he served his purpose...Ned found out.

He could never be king, because nobody is ever going to legitimize him.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

But he's full of the refreshing King's Blood!


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

They were only interested to see what vision they would get at the stake.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Since now we know that Stannis was not the savior king for the Lord of Light, we should conclude that the leeches did nothing (just like we thought), Gendry's sacrifice would have done nothing, and Shireen's death was also for naught.

btw, Headey is quoted as saying that Cersei did not deserve to be humiliated like this. Seriously? she deserved this and much more. She deserved Ramsay-style punishment. Has Headey watched the show?!


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Since now we know that Stannis was not the savior king for the Lord of Light, we should conclude that the leeches did nothing (just like we thought), Gendry's sacrifice would have done nothing, and Shireen's death was also for naught.


Gendry has king's blood. That doesn't change whether Stannis is Lord of Light or not. Joffrey and the others stood in the way of the true king getting to the Throne of Swords. That's why they died. Not because Stannis was anything. Shireen also had King's Blood since Stannis was of the royal line.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Since now we know that Stannis was not the savior king for the Lord of Light, we should conclude that the leeches did nothing (just like we thought), Gendry's sacrifice would have done nothing, and Shireen's death was also for naught.
> 
> btw, Headey is quoted as saying that Cersei did not deserve to be humiliated like this. Seriously? she deserved this and much more. She deserved Ramsay-style punishment. Has Headey watched the show?!


I wouldn't say her death was necessarily for naught... they might never have made it to the battlefield or would have done not nearly as well. The Boltons are weakened now...


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> The Boltons are weakened now...


Huh. It was my impression they made a cakewalk of that ~battle.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Anubys said:


> btw, Headey is quoted as saying that Cersei did not deserve to be humiliated like this. Seriously? she deserved this and much more. She deserved Ramsay-style punishment. Has Headey watched the show?!


I'd would say the punishment was excessive for her admitted/confessed crime. 
But for all her actual crimes...


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Since now we know that Stannis was not the savior king for the Lord of Light, we should conclude that the leeches did nothing (just like we thought), Gendry's sacrifice would have done nothing, and Shireen's death was also for naught.


Should we also assume that Renley died of a random heart attack at the same time both Davos and Brienne suffered matching hallucinations?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

markp99 said:


> Huh. It was my impression they made a cakewalk of that ~battle.


We already sort of talked about this.
When Ramsay returned to winterfell, we only got to see about 20 horses before they cut away, so we really don't know how many returned. But based on the the 2 battle scenes we did see, Stannis was nearly alone in a forest of bodies, and Ramsay and one other guy were in that field of bodies. If the boltons didn't suffer heavy losses, it seems like there would have been a LOT more people in those scenes.

On the other hand, as I also mentioned earlier, the Boltons were nearly all cavilry, and Stannis nearly all infantry. In a normal matchup like that, you'd expect Stannis to have been slaughtered with negligible loss on Ramsay's part

So it really is sort of confusing when you consider what we saw vs what you'd expect. As a result, I really don't know what sort of conclusion to draw about how many of Bolton's soldiers died.

Perhaps looking up info on the book battle between Stannis & Ramsay would help (assuming the books got that far).

Edit: looks like the books in fact did not get this far in Stannis' story.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Should we also assume that Renley died of a random heart attack at the same time both Davos and Brienne suffered matching hallucinations?


And Stannis admitted it.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Should we also assume that Renley died of a random heart attack at the same time both Davos and Brienne suffered matching hallucinations?


I made no such declaration, though!

So, no, you can't assume that


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Since now we know that Stannis was not the savior king for the Lord of Light, we should conclude that the leeches did nothing (just like we thought), Gendry's sacrifice would have done nothing, and Shireen's death was also for naught.


Not necessarily. Let's assume, for example, that Dany is Azor Ahai reborn:

1. The leeches still worked for "The usurper Robb Stark, the usurper Balon Greyjoy, the usurper Joffrey Baratheon". Each of these *was* a nominally usurper to the true Iron Throne.
2. Shireen's sacrifice just took out another would-be usurper to the throne: Stannis

Just because the sacrifices didn't work for Stannis didn't mean that they didn't work for the real Azor Ahai reborn...

In the GoT Universe, we do know that R'hllor and the Red Priest have some actual, demonstrated powers (shadow figures, resurrection, etc), so it's not completely out of the question that the sacrifices actually do something.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Balon Grayjoy is still alive, as far as we know.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I thought they showed something with him falling off one of those rope bridges in the Iron Islands.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> I thought they showed something with him falling off one of those rope bridges in the Iron Islands.


To the best of my recollection, that has not been shown in the show.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Book spoiler

I will note that balon spoiler was mentioned in one of he recent threads, though possibly in spoiler tags


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Melisandre no doubt has powers. Either her or one of the other characters mentioned that she sometimes misinterprets the visions. So, I expect that the Bolton banners will still be burning at Winterfell soon, but it will obviously not be Stannis who defeats them. Someone else is going to do it, so Melisandre got the end right but the means wrong (if that is how it plays out).


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

I am guessing we haven't seen the last of Drogon. He didn't look good though.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mr. Soze said:


> I am guessing we haven't seen the last of Drogon. He didn't look good though.


A few days rest, some tasty children, and he'll be good as new!


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> A few days rest, some tasty children, and he'll be good as new!


So do they taste like chicken?

We're assuming that Stannis is dead (and I see no reason not to believe it), so what happens to House Baratheon and all it's assets?

I'm guessing that since Stannis had no heirs and neither did Renly, all of it would revert to Tommen.

But if Tommen is officially declared a bastard, what happens then?
What happens to Storm's End and Dragonstone?

And who pays off the Iron Bank of Braavos?


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

There isn't anyone with the authority to dethrone Tommen I don't think, other than by the sword - in which case the person that kills him would get all of the baratheon assets (if they can hold them) I would think.


----------



## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

JYoung said:


> So do they taste like chicken?


Like pork hence the term "long pig."


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

JYoung said:


> what happens to House Baratheon and all it's assets?


What ever the king wants to do with them.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> We already sort of talked about this.
> When Ramsay returned to winterfell, we only got to see about 20 horses before they cut away, so we really don't know how many returned. But based on the the 2 battle scenes we did see, Stannis was nearly alone in a forest of bodies, and Ramsay and one other guy were in that field of bodies. If the boltons didn't suffer heavy losses, it seems like there would have been a LOT more people in those scenes.
> 
> On the other hand, as I also mentioned earlier, the Boltons were nearly all cavilry, and Stannis nearly all infantry. In a normal matchup like that, you'd expect Stannis to have been slaughtered with negligible loss on Ramsay's part


Unless Stannis had pikes and crossbowmen. Then (if his troops held) you'd expect the horsemen to withdraw (either before or after taking heavy losses). Cavalry is almost incapable of breaking a pike formation by force (but if the soldiers are poorly trained, or have low moral, the cavalry charge can panic them into breaking; and _then_ they get slaughtered)

However Stannis didn't appear to have pikes. Infantry with just swords is pretty much dead meat for cavalry; especially after they break formation (which we saw his troops begin to do almost immediately)


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Jonathan_S said:


> Unless Stannis had pikes and crossbowmen. Then (if his troops held) you'd expect the horsemen to withdraw (either before or after taking heavy losses). Cavalry is almost incapable of breaking a pike formation by force (but if the soldiers are poorly trained, or have low moral, the cavalry charge can panic them into breaking; and _then_ they get slaughtered)
> 
> However Stannis didn't appear to have pikes. Infantry with just swords is pretty much dead meat for cavalry; especially after they break formation (which we saw his troops begin to do almost immediately)


The scene really made no sense to me from a battle perspective, especially if Stannis is this "great military commander". He basically draws his sword and charges the horses coming at him. Yeah, that's smart...

And yet, somehow he survives and is in the woods fighting? They were attacked on an open field and Stannis manages to somehow avoid dying by trampling horses and make it to the woods.

Sorry, not buying that but for the lazy writing and directing to setup the death by Brienne...


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> The scene really made no sense to me from a battle perspective, especially if Stannis is this "great military commander". He basically draws his sword and charges the horses coming at him. Yeah, that's smart...
> 
> And yet, somehow he survives and is in the woods fighting? They were attacked on an open field and Stannis manages to somehow avoid dying by trampling horses and make it to the woods.
> 
> Sorry, not buying that but for the lazy writing and directing to setup the death by Brienne...


He used some fancy military commanding moves after the cut. It only looked like he and his men were blindly charging forward. The military maneuvering afterwards was amazing and a spectacle to behold, full of proof that he is the greatest military mind the world has ever seen. Obviously.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> He used some fancy military commanding moves after the cut. It only looked like he and his men were blindly charging forward. The military maneuvering afterwards was amazing and a spectacle to behold, full of proof that he is the greatest military mind the world has ever seen. Obviously.


Or more likely, he didn't bother coming up with a winning strategy this time (there wasn't one to be had anyway) because he knew he was going to win regardless, since God had told him so.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or more likely, he didn't bother coming up with a winning strategy this time (there wasn't one to be had anyway) because he knew he was going to win regardless, since God had told him so.


Or perhaps at that point he knew they were going to die. He'd burned his daughter at the stake, his wife committed suicide, his witch had left him, and he'd finally figured out that he was a complete idiot. He deserved to die and took his men with him.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

The way the armies looked at the outset, the best military strategy was to hope the smell from soiling his trousers would drive the Boltons army away.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Stannis is a great military commander. Everyone says so. 

We didn't get to see the actual battle. We saw the beginning and aftermath and the dead on the field looked like it was way more than just Stannis' men laying there. It was obviously a rout, but given Stannis is this "Great Military Leader" it's possible the victory may have been a pyrrhic one. We only know Ramsey won, not at what cost. Ramsey is also crazy enough that he doesn't value his men enough to care how many he lost in the battle since all he cares about is that he won, so he might not have reacted if the cost was too great.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

zordude said:


> There isn't anyone with the authority to dethrone Tommen I don't think, other than by the sword - in which case the person that kills him would get all of the baratheon assets (if they can hold them) I would think.





robojerk said:


> What ever the king wants to do with them.


So the Iron Bank gets stiffed on it's loan(s)?


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> The scene really made no sense to me from a battle perspective, especially if Stannis is this "great military commander". He basically draws his sword and charges the horses coming at him. Yeah, that's smart...


It looked like he had about 6 minutes from the time he arrived on the field and started directing people to start the siege, until the Bolton cavalry was riding into them. At that point there's not much you can do. You can't even communicate with your men effectively in that amount of time; any attempt to devise some grand tactic is just going to confuse everyone and make more of a mess.

I do wish the draw-back shot had shown Stannis's archers standing back a bit and doing some damage. We'll just have to assume they were there


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

JYoung said:


> So the Iron Bank gets stiffed on it's loan(s)?


Pure conjecture on my part: I would guess the Iron Bank would approach the new king and expect him/her to honor the old debts. And make it clear if they don't honor it, the IB will back a challenger to the throne who would.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> We only know Ramsey won, not at what cost. Ramsey is also crazy enough that he doesn't value his men enough to care how many he lost in the battle since all he cares about is that he won, so he might not have reacted if the cost was too great.


Even if he had the numbers advantage, I found it odd that they rode out at all. We heard Roose Bolton in episode 8 saying "A smart commander does not
abandon a defensive advantage." So what happened? Did Roose leave Winterfell before Stannis arrived? Was he convinved Stannis would win and was trying to save his own life (and to hell with Ramsay...he now has a fully legitimate replacement on the way)?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Even if he had the numbers advantage, I found it odd that they rode out at all. We heard Roose Bolton in episode 8 saying "A smart commander does not
> abandon a defensive advantage." So what happened? Did Roose leave Winterfell before Stannis arrived? Was he convinved Stannis would win and was trying to save his own life (and to hell with Ramsay...he now has a fully legitimate replacement on the way)?


He saw the chance to end it once and for all. Stannis lost "half" his men more than once; I think it's fair to say he was down to less than a fourth of his men. He had lost all the sellswords (who are presumably the best fighters), his entire cavalry, and all his siege hardware. He was down to a handful of hungry, freezing soldiers on foot.

At that point, the best time to strike is before they settle down and gather their strength. The snow had melted and Bolton took the chance to strike at max advantage when his enemy was at his absolute weakest.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

While I'm 100% on the side of "Jon Snow will come back in some form", I'd like to point out that - at this point - there is nobody on the show that knows who Jon's mother is. 

So even if he comes back, how will the mystery be solved?


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

If you think snow can come back, what makes you think no one else can


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

And who knows who knows (is it possible that this is the one thing Varys _doesn't_ know? ), or how that knowledge can be otherwise gained (e.g., we know royal blood has magical properties; we know Targaryens have magical properties).


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

MonsterJoe said:


> If you think snow can come back, what makes you think no one else can


They could. But only those the Lord of Light wants brought back will be brought back. That apparently doesn't include most of Westeros.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> They could. But only those the Lord of Light wants brought back will be brought back. That apparently doesn't include most of Westeros.


We have a few examples of people not being dead for different reasons that don't involve LoL


----------



## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

Stannis's last words: OMG. LOL.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Cercei's nude body double speaks: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...ude-double-walk-shame-scene-article-1.2263734


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> While I'm 100% on the side of "Jon Snow will come back in some form", I'd like to point out that - at this point - there is nobody on the show that knows who Jon's mother is.
> 
> So even if he comes back, how will the mystery be solved?


Littlefinger sure sounded like he knew when he was telling Sansa about Lyanna and Rhaegar earlier this season.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Littlefinger sure sounded like he knew when he was telling Sansa about Lyanna and Rhaegar earlier this season.


I originally posted that if anyone left that would know, it would be him. I don't know why I decided to take that out, but I agree with you that if anyone knows, it would be him.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

MonsterJoe said:


> We have a few examples of people not being dead for different reasons that don't involve LoL


Who?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I originally posted that if anyone left that would know, it would be him. I don't know why I decided to take that out, but I agree with you that if anyone knows, it would be him.


Well, I still think if anybody knows anything, it's Varys.  But yes, Littlefinger is also a good suspect for knowing...


BeanMeScot said:


> Who?


Lord of Light? As quoted from you?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> Who?


The Doctor?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Once again, I have completed my collection of reviews and interviews for this season of GoT.

For each episode, I have reviews from Alan Sepinwall, EW, and Andy Greenwald from Grantland.

I also have the "Ask the Maester" column from Grantland as well as interviews with actors and producers when something major happens. It's a word document that is 206 pages long. If you want a copy, PM me your e-mail address.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Anubys said:


> He saw the chance to end it once and for all. Stannis lost "half" his men more than once; I think it's fair to say he was down to less than a fourth of his men. He had lost all the sellswords (who are presumably the best fighters), his entire cavalry, and all his siege hardware. He was down to a handful of hungry, freezing soldiers on foot.
> 
> At that point, the best time to strike is before they settle down and gather their strength. The snow had melted and Bolton took the chance to strike at max advantage when his enemy was at his absolute weakest.


As opposed to letting Stannis did into siege lines; which gives _him_ back a big defensive advantage against cavalry; if the folks at Winterfell ever have to break out. And it yields the initiative to Stannis - he can work on acquiring more troops to reenforce his siege lines and Roose pretty much just has to sit there and ration food to keep from starving or hope his father send forces to raise the siege.

(I'm assuming Stannis still had enough men to actually encircle and cut off Winterfell. The situation is pretty different if he can't and the siege is just one fortified encampment glaring at Winterfell and trying to interdict any foraging parties)


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

There are wights and the mountain and <spoiler maybe>

Theres magic in them that hills.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MonsterJoe said:


> Theres magic in them that hills.


Are you talking about Margaery?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

MonsterJoe said:


> There are wights and the mountain and <spoiler maybe>
> 
> Theres magic in them that hills.


The Wights are like zombies. They don't seem to actually be human anymore. They can't speak and only want to kill others to make more Wights. Hard to tell for sure with the Mountain (yet), but he seemed a lot like a Wight for the brief time we saw him. He can't speak. He can only seem to obey. Dondarrion has apparently changed (from what was said) but he still seems to be mostly human, making his own decisions and leading a group of people. Part of his problem seems to be that he keeps getting killed and resurrected. The people with him noted he seemed less himself with each one. Jon will only have been resurrected once (if that's what happens). At any rate, the LoL seems to do a better job of resurrecting people than anyone else.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Also was the Mountain truly dead or mostly dead?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Also was the Mountain truly dead or mostly dead?


One thing we know....it wasn't true love that brought him back.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> One thing we know....it wasn't true love that brought him back.


Yeah, he's probably back to blathe.


----------



## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Also was the Mountain truly dead or mostly dead?


Mostly. I think he was just wounded when he was examined after the fight.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

He was poisoned, most probably. That's the MO of Dorne.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I thought he was declared dead and then Quiburn (sp?) asked to have the body to play with. But I have no idea why I think that.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> I thought he was declared dead and then Quiburn (sp?) asked to have the body to play with. But I have no idea why I think that.


The other Maester (forget his name) said there was nothing that could be done and that they should just let him die. Quyburn said there was a way to maybe save him but that he would never be the same.

Cersei asked if he would still be able to fight and Q (might as well be Q from the Bond movies!) said that he would be. So Cersei approved the procedure.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> The other Maester (forget his name) said there was nothing that could be done and that they should just let him die. Quyburn said there was a way to maybe save him but that he would never be the same.


I wondered if it was something akin to what "saved" Khal Drogo.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Quyburn also asked for the head of the dwarf that was killed as being Tyrion.
Maybe Frankenstone has a dwarf's head.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

MikeAndrews said:


> Quyburn also asked for the head of the dwarf that was killed as being Tyrion.
> Maybe Frankenstone has a dwarf's head.


OMG I remember that. That would be hilarious!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> Quyburn also asked for the head of the dwarf that was killed as being Tyrion.
> Maybe Frankenstone has a dwarf's head.


I don't think it's related. The guy just likes to experiment and this was just another thing he can take apart and play with.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Cainebj said:


> All I have to say is if they used a body double for Cersei's naked walk then kudos to them and film making technology cause I never would have known for a second it wasn't Lena Headley OR her head on someone else's body.


She's been nekkid in other things, so it was pretty clear to me that wasn't her naked body (she's not that busty). But yeah, it was really seamlessly done.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Cercei's nude body double speaks: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...ude-double-walk-shame-scene-article-1.2263734


So this woman beat out 1,000 other women to be Cersei's body double. That has to be one of the greatest casting calls ever. Would have loved to have been assigned to make the decision on that one.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

ClutchBrake said:


> So this woman beat out 1,000 other women to be Cersei's body double. That has to be one of the greatest casting calls ever. Would have loved to have been assigned to make the decision on that one.


"OK, take off your clothes." 
 *I THOUGHT THIS WAS A LEGIT HBO PRODUCTION!*


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

TV.com ran a piece on the Five Worst Moments in Season 5.

And they hit the obvious things like the rape of Sansa and the Sand Snakes.
But I had to smile a bit at this one:


> The Unsullied are worthless, the Sons of the Harpy are a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude:
> 
> As much as I liked the old dude, I wasn't opposed to Ser Barristan dying in Season 5. What I am opposed to is the manner in which he died, which was basically sweeping up the incompetence of the Unsullied. They were supposed to be some of the most feared fighters in the universe, trained at a young age in the arts of sharp poles and killing people with them. They worked as a unit, feared nothing, and could withstand pain (remember when that guy had his nipple sliced off and he was like, "Whatevs"?). OR SO WE THOUGHT. Because they got their asses kicked by a bunch of hoodrats wearing heavy golden Jabberwocky masks every time they clashed. What the hell, Unsullied?


I also couldn't help but notice that in the poll, The Inept Unsullied was the leading choice.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> "OK, take off your clothes."
> *I THOUGHT THIS WAS A LEGIT HBO PRODUCTION!*


Wait is this Cinemax?


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

"It's not porn, it's HBO"

That's the title of a Spoof Video where actors describe the part that they got to their friends and parents.

The video itself is NSFW, but funny.

--Carlos V.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> The first thing I thought was that the Lord of Light will not let Jon Snow die. It wasn't wishful thinking on my part, I don't think. I just think it makes sense story-wise.


Jon Snow is fine. Just a few flesh wounds.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TomK said:


> As far as Dany's ring (explained in the post show 'recap'), she dropped it as a way to let herself be tracked by those hunting her.


Stolen from LoTR when Pippin does the same with the cloak clasp. It's done so often in this genre that Dany probably got it from a Terry Brooks novel or some such.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

uncdrew said:


> Stolen from LoTR when Pippin does the same with the cloak clasp. It's done so often in this genre that Dany probably got it from a Terry Brooks novel or some such.


Pretty sure she didn't get it from a GRRM book.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I just finished rewatching the whole season. A few notes

1) In this episode, with regard to what happens to Arya in her last scene, there was some talk here about whether that happened to her because of she took the face, because of what she did to Meryn F'ing Trant, or whether it was related to the poison Jaqen H'ghar took. I didn't catch Jaqen H'ghar's words the first time, but he says "the faces are for noone...you are still someone...and to someone the faces are as good as poison". So it was clearly the fact that she used the face.

2) I'm a little confused about the requirements of the many faced god. From season 2, I thought we learned that the many faced god demanded a balance of life and death. Arya spared the lifes of Jaqen and the other 2 guys, so he was owed 3 lives in return. Yet her, Arya takes a life she wasn't supposed to, so I would figure the tradeoff would be that, because of her actions, someone else's life would have to be spared...someone who deserved to die gets to live on. Thus it was a bit confusing to have a death repaid by another death. So maybe the many faced god doesn't like balance, but just death?

3) Just an amusing note about the talk of Jon's possible resurrection next season. A few episodes back when Sam was talking to Ollie, he tells him "I've been worrying about Jon for years....he always comes back"


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

It seemed to me that every death of a major character in this episode was questionable in different degrees. *Stannis Barathian* was killed by Brienne; but we didn't actually see the head roll as did poor Ned's. *Sansa* and *Reek* leapt to their deaths, but into a snowbank. *Jon Snow* got stabbed to a glassy-eyed death like Julius Caesar, but nearby lurks a witch of the Red God who has been known to revive mutilated corpses. *Arya* has been poisoned by using a face too soon, but she is probably just blind.

I'm going to have to avoid all my friends who have read the books until the series returns!


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

In most of those cases, the show has caught up to, or surpassed the books. With a single exception, we don't know more about the future than you do (and I won't tell you which one).


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> In most of those cases, the show has caught up to, or surpassed the books. With a single exception, we don't know more about the future than you do (and I won't tell you which one).


I'm not even a book reader, but I'll tell you that it wasn't A*n*ya


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

ej42137 said:


> It seemed to me that every death of a major character in this episode was questionable in different degrees. *Stannis Barathian* was killed by Brienne; but we didn't actually see the head roll as did poor Ned's. *Sansa* and *Reek* leapt to their deaths, but into a snowbank. *Jon Snow* got stabbed to a glassy-eyed death like Julius Caesar, but nearby lurks a witch of the Red God who has been known to revive mutilated corpses. *Arya* has been poisoned by using a face too soon, but she is probably just blind.
> 
> I'm going to have to avoid all my friends who have read the books until the series returns!


If, like me, your friends have read the books but not watched the show, you'd probably confuse them considerably, considering how much the show has diverged from the books, and there's some stuff that's happened in the show that's sort of spoiler-ish for them.


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

--Carlos V.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

unitron said:


> If, like me, your friends have read the books but not watched the show, you'd probably confuse them considerably, considering how much the show has diverged from the books, and there's some stuff that's happened in the show that's sort of spoiler-ish for them.


Yeah, exactly that did happen to me; my dental hygienist turned out to be a great fan of the books who hadn't seen the show at all; while she had her fingers in my mouth and couldn't stop her she went on about the fates of John Snow and Arya in more detail than I really wanted to know. So I bit her fingers and proceeded to spoil her up to date.

Now I'm looking for a hygienist who has HBO.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Did anyone do any more scientific research on the Reek Leap? I think they get up and walk away. Looked like a pretty easy jump to me.

But why didn't they just go out the gate?


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

uncdrew said:


> Did anyone do any more scientific research on the Reek Leap? I think they get up and walk away. Looked like a pretty easy jump to me.
> 
> But why didn't they just go out the gate?


Pretty sure that the guards would be aware of who they are and know not to let them just walk away.


















Are you kidding me about that looking easy?


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Did anyone do any more scientific research on the Reek Leap? I think they get up and walk away. Looked like a pretty easy jump to me.
> 
> But why didn't they just go out the gate?


Because they were just ahead of Ramsay's triumphant return from battle.


----------



## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

nickels said:


> Are you kidding me about that looking easy?


The leaping is easy. The landing... not so much.


----------



## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

Possible spoiler for next season regarding Jon Snow:



Spoiler



http://www.independent.ie/entertain...es-character-may-still-be-alive-31352740.html





Spoiler



The actor is forbidden from cutting his hair while contracted to the show, which might make the eye colour/direwolf reincarnation discussion entirely irrelevant. He could be same old Jon Snow as we've always known him. Or "deader than dead" as show director David Nutter already said.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I saw Dany doing a promo for the new Terminator movie--I didn't even recognize her in the clip. Then when she started using her own accent, it was more obvious. Good reason to check out that movie. :up:


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Jagman_sl said:


> The leaping is easy. The landing... not so much.


The key is to throw yourself at the ground, and miss.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Bob Coxner said:


> Possible spoiler for next season regarding Jon Snow:


I totally understand spoiler tagging that one, but the truth is it doesn't really spoil much. They make the most basic observation, one which could have multiple possible explanations



Spoiler



The most obvious ones:
1) his character is still alive
2) his character is dead, but they haven't filmed the post death scenes yet, and it would be really odd if he suddenly has different hair. And yes, they could use a wig, but if they wrote that into his contract, obviously for some reason they'd rather go with his actual hair, so that may still apply here.

And some other possibilities (assuming his character is dead)

3) he's grown accustomed to and likes the hair style, so he's keeping it for now
4) until he has a reason otherwise, he's keeping the style to make him more recognizable to people
5) he's already got another gig lined up and they want him to keep the same hair style for that role
6) since nobody knows his fate, maybe the producers paid him to keep it that way to prolong the mystery, sort of like a severance package.
7) they plan on filming some additional scenes with him...either some sort of flashback or Bran vision or something.


and in the end, they essentially concluded the equivalent of "this could mean something, or it could mean nothing".


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

yeah, that's not a spoiler as it's completely speculation, which is allowed in threads! my speculation is that Kit Harington isn't done yet with GoT!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> yeah, that's not a spoiler as it's completely speculation, which is allowed in threads! my speculation is that Kit Harington isn't done yet with GoT!


Or GoT isn't done yet with Kit Harrington. "Just when I thought I was out..."


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

If Jon is dead they sure left a lot of loose ends. Who was his mother? Who is going to defend against the White Walkers? Who is going to know nothing? 

Jon may be dead, but he is coming back to life somehow. Bank on it!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

If only there was some invention where people can change what their hair looks like. Or make it a different color, even.

I think this is why they picked this particular actress to play Dany. Her hair color and length was just right.

The guy who invents something where someone with short hair can appear to have long hair will make billions...billions, I say!


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

nickels said:


> If Jon is dead they sure left a lot of loose ends. Who was his mother? Who is going to defend against the White Walkers? Who is going to know nothing?












(I saw it on someone's t-shirt last week.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

JYoung said:


> (I saw it on someone's t-shirt last week.


wow that is brilliant


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

nickels said:


> Pretty sure that the guards would be aware of who they are and know not to let them just walk away.
> 
> Are you kidding me about that looking easy?


I got the sense that with the battle raging (fairly far from the castle) escaping one way or another would have been relatively easy. I guess I'm wrong.

But when I watched the show, they didn't seem that far up. 20 feet or so.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> But when I watched the show, they didn't seem that far up. 20 feet or so.[/


High enough that when Miranda was thrown over the rail toward the inside, she splatted on the ground and was obviously dead. The only difference between the jump they did and the fall that killed Miranda is there might be a decent amount of snow built up where Sansa and Theon landed.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> High enough that when Miranda was thrown over the rail toward the inside, she splatted on the ground and was obviously dead. The only difference between the jump they did and the fall that killed Miranda is there might be a decent amount of snow built up where Sansa and Theon landed.


Also, landing on your feet is less likely to be fatal than landing on your head, back, or front.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Finally got to watch the episode yesterday. My bets:

Stanis: Dead
Sansa: Not dead
Theon: Probably dead
Arya: Temporarily blind
Jon: Mostly dead, will get better

Looking forward to next season. No more book readers, we are all show watchers now!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> High enough that when Miranda was thrown over the rail toward the inside, she splatted on the ground and was obviously dead. The only difference between the jump they did and the fall that killed Miranda is there might be a decent amount of snow built up where Sansa and Theon landed.


This is Winterfell, jumping off into the snow is probably the same thing as jumping off a cliff into the water in some tropical island. Probably all the kids have done that many times!


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> Finally got to watch the episode yesterday. My bets:
> 
> Stanis: Dead
> Sansa: Not dead
> ...


Jon: I'm not dead!
Dead Collector: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.
Olly: Yes he is. 
Jon: I'm not.
Dead Collector: He isn't.
Olly: Well, he will be soon, he's very ill.
Jon: I'm getting better.
Olly: No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.

Maisie Williams: "We saw him get stabbed a lot in the chest, like, I think that's pretty clear"


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

heySkippy said:


> Finally got to watch the episode yesterday. My bets:
> 
> Stanis: Dead
> Sansa: Not dead
> ...


Don't see how Sansa and Theon are different in the dead/not dead bets, how's that work?

Jon is dead, the question is does he rise from the dead, warg, or remain dead. My bet is Lord of Light magic and Jon rising up, finding out L+R=J is true, and teaming up with Dany in Season 7 at some point.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Keep in mind that the last guy to die at the wall turned into a wight. I look forward to zombie Jon Snow


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

My character checklist (No spoilers, not a book reader, all speculation)

Stannis: dead. No reason remains for him to be alive. His family is gone and he has no army left. 
Sansa: not dead, ever the victim. Will surely suffer some more next season.
Theon: not dead, will be soon. His crimes are too great to be forgiven and he has repented. His character has come full circle making him disposable. 
Reek: dead. Theon is no longer Reek and will not answer to that name any longer.
Arya: in training to be faceless. Vision will return - maybe has to kill thin man without sight to pass next test? I seriously doubt her blindness is permanent.
Jon: DEAD. _temporarily_. Will be back in some form. Having him stay dead would be the biggest surprise ever.
Myrcella Baratheon: dead. Poisoned at sea. Only hope is someone on board with antidote but it appears to be too late. More drama possibilities with her gone.

Dany: in grave danger. Dragons and/or Jorah will somehow save her. I doubt the Dothraki are going to welcome her with open arms.
Jorah: next main character to die - probably in some grand moment saving Dany.

Bran: hanging out with some tree dude. Should have an active season 6 after no-show this year. Can't even remember what was the entire point of his storyline anymore.
Rickon: who? what is this kid up to again? Since he is all but forgotten he is probably key to the story.

Ramsay Snow/Bolton: we all want him killed so badly, so he will probably live most of next season. Top choices for killer: Theon or Sansa
Roose Bolton: the north remembers. Roose is my second pick for next character likely to get killed. Hopefully when Littlefinger attacks Winterfell according to his plan.

The Hound: not dead. He was severely wounded but he didn't die. Is a battle with his brother going to happen? Too many people want it so unlikely, but I do expect him to return.

The Mountain(stein): can ya feel it? This guy has an epic fight scene coming and it is going to be glorious!!!

Syrio Forel: we expect to see him again, therefor he is not coming back. Death will never be confirmed. Theories will continue about him forever.

White Walkers: my guess is that by the end of next season they attack the wall and kill the remaining members of the night's watch. For this to be truly jaw dropping, the wall should be destroyed in the process.

Wildlings: not sure of their fate now that Jon is gone and they are inside the wall? Having a giant will sure help their odds if they have to fight. I'd like to see the night's watch going to hunt them down, but their battle is interrupted by the white walkers breaching the wall.

Season 6 can't get here fast enough!!!


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

pjenkins said:


> Don't see how Sansa and Theon are different in the dead/not dead bets, how's that work?


Two people jumping together from a height aren't guaranteed to land the same way. One could limp away while the other has a broken <something> and doesn't survive. Theon has redeemed himself, this would be a good time for him to croak.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

nickels said:


> Syrio Forel: we expect to see him again, therefor he is not coming back. Death will never be confirmed. Theories will continue about him forever.


I've never understood why/how people expect Syrio might have survived while covering for Arya's escape. He's dead. I would bet big against him showing up again.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Keep in mind that the last guy to die at the wall turned into a wight. I look forward to zombie Jon Snow


He didn't die at the wall. He died beyond the wall, was found mysteriously outside the wall, and blue eyed inside the wall.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

David Nutter, who directed this episode, discusses Stannis Baratheon. Spoilered for obvious reasons...



Spoiler



Also dead? Stannis Baratheon, despite the ambiguous way things were left off with him at the end of the finale.

From the very beginning, and [through] the script process, that was the intent  hes dead, Nutter said.



http://www.ew.com/article/2015/07/10/game-of-thrones-audition-reel


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I don't think Stannis was particularly ambiguous. I see no reason why Brienne wouldn't do what she sat out to do. She is VERY determined in that way. He needed to die, he was going to die if she got her hands on him, and she did. Just because this wasn't the graphic head rolling on the ground normal way of GoT doesn't change that.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

pjenkins said:


> Don't see how Sansa and Theon are different in the dead/not dead bets, how's that work?


Just watched it two nights ago. My initial reaction when Reek/Sansa were faced with the jump, was that Reek would try to fall backwards while holding onto Sansa, sacrificing himself to save her. I know he's mostly skin and bones and wouldn't really do much to break her fall, but that was my initial thought. But then they didn't jump that way, so I still know nothing.

I also thought that, maybe, the ground was higher on the other side, but in re-watching a YouTube clip, they actually go up a small staircase (3-4 steps) from where they were when Reek pushed Miranda to a somewhat higher walkway, and then they climb up on the wall itself that is even higher. In the end, they were probably fell from a greater height. Good luck with that.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

@nickels, regarding the Wildlings, wasn't the Night's Watch brotherhood numbering something like 50 or 150? Jon wasn't able to get reinforcements, and Stannis left. The Wildlings outnumber the Crows 100 to 1 if not more. They didn't need Jon to ensure their safety. Jon, on the other hand ...


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

pjenkins said:


> Don't see how Sansa and Theon are different in the dead/not dead bets, how's that work?


She's knocked unconscious by the fall, awakens to discover him dead beside her. Impaled on something, bent in an unnatural position, the possibilities are endless.

She sobs over his lifeless body, then trudges off for more misery.

I wouldn't put money on it (I think they'll both survive, probably with him more injured and her having to carry most of his weight) but it's a possibility.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Robin said:


> She's knocked unconscious by the fall, awakens to discover him dead beside her. Impaled on something, bent in an unnatural position, the possibilities are endless.
> 
> She sobs over his lifeless body, then trudges off for more misery.


Sobs over him? ITYM "kicks his lifeless body in the face, spits on it, then trudges off for more misery."


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Apparently these are available for purchase at the SDCC (and will be available online shortly after it finishes).


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

madscientist said:


> kicks his lifeless body in the face, spits on it, then trudges off for more misery.





Robin said:


> She sobs over his lifeless body, then trudges off for more misery.


At least y'all agree on one thing!


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> High enough that when Miranda was thrown over the rail toward the inside, she splatted on the ground and was obviously dead. The only difference between the jump they did and the fall that killed Miranda is there might be a decent amount of snow built up where Sansa and Theon landed.


Good point. I forgot about Miranda's fall.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> High enough that when Miranda was thrown over the rail toward the inside, she splatted on the ground and was obviously dead. The only difference between the jump they did and the fall that killed Miranda is there might be a decent amount of snow built up where Sansa and Theon landed.


Or a thatch roof, hay bails, water, etc.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

it's strange that nobody here is mourning the loss of Miranda!


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

wprager said:


> Apparently these are available for purchase at the SDCC (and will be available online shortly after it finishes).


Oh my god this is the best shirt ever! If you find them available online please post the link. MUST HAVE!!!!


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Who or what are Bluths?


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

http://arresteddevelopment.wikia.com/wiki/Bluth_family


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

nickels said:


> Oh my god this is the best shirt ever! If you find them available online please post the link. MUST HAVE!!!!


http://arrestedwesteros.com/post/60467266634/arrested-westeros-t-shirts-available-for


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

heySkippy said:


> Who or what are Bluths?


You could be banned for that.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Ron Howard Voice Over:

HeySkippy's comment in the Game of Thrones thread revealed to its participants that he apparently had never seen Arrested Development. Everyone waited to see how HeySkippy would respond.

/Ron Howard Voice Over


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

You have a very interesting view of the show.

My inputs.



nickels said:


> The Hound: not dead. He was severely wounded but he didn't die. Is a battle with his brother going to happen? Too many people want it so unlikely, but I do expect him to return.


Clearly dead, has been for some time, no need for him to return


> Syrio Forel: we expect to see him again, therefor he is not coming back. Death will never be confirmed. Theories will continue about him forever.


 No one expects to see him again and you are right, he is not coming back. In general GoT is pretty straight forward. You may not see it coming when someone dies, but once they do, they pretty much stay dead.

Have we seen anyone die and then unexpectedly come back?

The only people that even seem to relate to this topic are
Drogo - which was immediately and obviously dealt with in Dany's attempt to bring him back, it wasn't hidden/a surprise later
Mountain - he never actually died and much foreshadowing made it clear that something was going to happen with him and that he would be back

Even Jon is likely to fit with these cases. He is dead and seeming to be very likely to be quickly brought back in some form. They just decided to so it at a season end cliffhanger.

So in my opinion, so far GoT has been pretty straight forward, if a person dies (even off camera like Stannis) they pretty much stay dead. At the very least it isn't a cheap surprise that they pop-up again later not dead and then have a backstory to explain how they didn't actually die.

I'm sure I'm probably forgetting someone that completely invalidates my take on it


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

danterner said:


> Ron Howard Voice Over:
> 
> HeySkippy's comment in the Game of Thrones thread revealed to its participants that he apparently had never seen Arrested Development. Everyone waited to see how HeySkippy would respond.
> 
> /Ron Howard Voice Over


I have never seen it either. Or HIMYM, or Big Bang Theory.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

It's worth watching. I haven't seen HIMYM or BBT, either. (Just an isolated episode here and there).


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I've seen Arrested Development, but didn't grok the shirt. I though you could get it with any name


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I've seen Arrested Development, but didn't grok the shirt. I though you could get it with any name


The shirt is based on the popular blog Arrested Westeros where they use pictures from GoT and dialogue from Arrested Development to create some funny memes.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

brianp6621 said:


> You have a very interesting view of the show.
> 
> My inputs.
> 
> ...


Well there's also 'what's his name'. The guy the Lord of Light keeps resurrecting. (Wasn't he last seen in the cave where there was a fight and someone lit a sword on fire?)

Hmm, apparently I already need to rewatch because the details are going.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Jonathan_S said:


> Well there's also 'what's his name'. The guy the Lord of Light keeps resurrecting. (Wasn't he last seen in the cave where there was a fight and someone lit a sword on fire?)
> 
> Hmm, apparently I already need to rewatch because the details are going.


Ok, but again, that guys story is that he can't die and keeps being resurrected. Hardly a, WOW that guy from 3 seasons ago is actually alive? How did he NOT die?


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

brianp6621 said:


> Clearly dead, has been for some time


How is the Hound "clearly dead"? He wasn't dead when Arya left, and he's been very resilient in the past.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

pjenkins said:


> How is the Hound "clearly dead"? He wasn't dead when Arya left, and he's been very resilient in the past.


He was extremely critically injured in the middle of nowhere. Of course it is possible, but the show has shown us no indications of bringing back long thought dead characters. I think of this show very Joss Wheedon-esque. Don't be afraid to kill off major characters and when you do, keep them dead.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

brianp6621 said:


> He was extremely critically injured in the middle of nowhere. Of course it is possible, but the show has shown us no indications of bringing back long thought dead characters. I think of this show very Joss Wheedon-esque. Don't be afraid to kill off major characters and when you do, keep them dead.


Yes, but IMO that isn't "clearly dead" - Eddard Stark - that's "clearly dead"


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

pjenkins said:


> Yes, but IMO that isn't "clearly dead" - Eddard Stark - that's "clearly dead"


OK, not clearly dead without doubt but clearly dead by my read on the show.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

brianp6621 said:


> OK, not clearly dead without doubt but clearly dead by my read on the show.


I can "live" with that


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> I can "live" with that


Clearly.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Of all the "dead" characters, The Hound is the one I'm most skeptical about his demise. He was critically wounded, but only in his estimation. Even he thought it would take him a while to die. The problem was that he could not go anywhere, help had to come to him.

But they were close to the Eyrie. If a non-miracle were to happen (i.e. not a Lord of Light save), it would be for the Hound.

I give the Hound a 20% chance of coming back.

Jon Snow? 99% he is back.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

brianp6621 said:


> Have we seen anyone die and then unexpectedly come back?


I assume you mean other than the wights, all of whose resurrections were unexpected.

Beric Dondarion was originally killed off camera and came back. Then he was killed on camera and came back immediately. I suspect those don't count for your theory because there was no long delay in their resurrection.

There is one other, but that particular plot did not/will not get shown on TV. It does, however, fit exactly your requirements. Someone clearly dead, dead for a long time, and returns unexpectedly later, and we have to learn how after the fact.

There are several possible reasons it could have been excised from the show - they didn't think it necessary as it didn't advance the story; it foreshadowed something they didn't want to foreshadow; or (my personal theory) since the point of the story was surprise - something easy to do in a book - but the surprise would be immediately ruined by the appearance of the actor on screen, they felt it wouldn't work well on the TV show.

Note that the latter has another example in Barriston Selmy who originally travelled with Daenarys under another name before revealing himself, but the audience would immediately recognize him on TV, and so that entire plotline was excised and Barriston Selmy identified himself right away.

Having said all of that, I think that the Hound is dead, too.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Gwendoline Christie (Brienne) comments on her scene with Stannis:



Spoiler



... even though we didn't see Brienne kill Stannis onscreen during the finale, she kept her promise to get revenge on him.

"I can't offer you any insight whatsoever [why his death wasn't shown onscreen] because I don't write the show and I don't direct the showyet!," Christie tells E! News with a laugh. "No, but how could you ever doubt Brienne? What did you think I was doing, giving him a haircut?"


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## markbox (May 3, 2004)

Regarding Sansa and Theon's jump from the wall... perhaps as children growing up in Winterfell they knew of this spot on the wall from which they could jump and not be hurt. Perhaps the wall slopes out a bit like a water slide or there is some other soft spot for landing purposes. An escape route of sorts for those inside the castle that they were taught of as children.


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## sneagle (Jun 12, 2002)

markbox said:


> Regarding Sansa and Theon's jump from the wall... perhaps as children growing up in Winterfell they knew of this spot on the wall from which they could jump and not be hurt. Perhaps the wall slopes out a bit like a water slide or there is some other soft spot for landing purposes. An escape route of sorts for those inside the castle that they were taught of as children.


 Best idea I've heard. Thumbs up


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Anubys said:


> This is Winterfell, jumping off into the snow is probably the same thing as jumping off a cliff into the water in some tropical island. Probably all the kids have done that many times!





markbox said:


> Regarding Sansa and Theon's jump from the wall... perhaps as children growing up in Winterfell they knew of this spot on the wall from which they could jump and not be hurt. Perhaps the wall slopes out a bit like a water slide or there is some other soft spot for landing purposes. An escape route of sorts for those inside the castle that they were taught of as children.





sneagle said:


> Best idea I've heard. Thumbs up


Yes. If only someone had posted that idea earlier!


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

wprager said:


> You could be banned for that.


Should be rewarded and cherished for not watching that extremely overrated show.


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## DavidJL (Feb 21, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> Should be rewarded and cherished for not watching that extremely overrated show.


Time to call J. Walter Weatherman


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

TonyD79 said:


> Should be rewarded and cherished for not watching that extremely overrated show.


I am pretty sure you can't call AD overrated when it was moved around, cancelled, and the final TV episodes were shown in a different time-slot all at once. That show was never given the respect it deserved, and I am thrilled that Netflix brought it back. Overrated, nope - under-appreciated 100%.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

The 3rd season of AD just wasn't nearly as good as the first two, IMO. And I didn't think that 4th season on Netflix was all that great either.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> The 3rd season of AD just wasn't nearly as good as the first two, IMO. And I didn't think that 4th season on Netflix was all that great either.


The Netflix season was awful. I pretend it doesn't exist.

One of my all-time favorite comedies but I completely understand why it wasn't a ratings success.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I almost posted my opinion on AD but then I realized it's a GoT thread!


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

It's just a thread divergence.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Arrested Divergence?

How about The Walking Development?


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