# Lost - The L&D of Jeremy Bentham - 2/25/09



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Great subtle explanation of why Richard Alpert never ages. 

Loved the fact that they made John Locke have to be in a wheelchair again during his return to 'real life'.

WALT!!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Great subtle explanation of why Richard Alpert never ages.
> 
> Loved the fact that they made John Locke have to be in a wheelchair again during his return to 'real life'.
> 
> WALT!!


I missed the subtle explanation.

That was a great episode. So for now, Ben is evil again and Widmore is good? 
Or maybe just less evil.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

When Widmore was with John in Tunisia, he asked John how long ago he saw him and John said it was 4 days ago (when Widmore was 17), and now he is in his 60's. Basically, Alpert is jumping around in time and he stays the same age while everyone else is aging.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

There's a war coming..

Makes me think of season 1 where Locke was explaining to Walt (on the surface, presumably about backgammon) "there are two sides.. One light, one dark" (not a direct quote, just from memory), along with the fact that Adam & Eve had a pouch with two stones, one white and one black.


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## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

Great episode... I think that's the first time I've ever felt any empathy for John. When Ben busted into the hotel room & stopped him from killing himself, I was surprised since hanging was the cause of death. I should have seen Ben's attack coming, but didn't. There must be even more to Eloise's story than we already know -- some reason for that to have set Ben off. He already knew that John was being aided by Widmore, so obviously Widmore & Eloise are known to each other.

Widmore left the island... and Ben tricked him... did he turn the wheel?

Suddenly it doesn't seem like Widmore is the enemy, but it doesn't seem like he's a friend either.

And I really am surprised that Damon & Carlton said the last two episodes could have been shown in either order. There would have been much less dramatic tension in John's story if this episode had been shown first.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Paperboy2003 said:


> When Widmore was with John in Tunisia, he asked John how long ago he saw him and John said it was 4 days ago (when Widmore was 17), and now he is in his 60's. Basically, Alpert is jumping around in time and he stays the same age while everyone else is aging.


Ehh, not to rain on your parade, but Alpert didn't even know about time travel in the 50s.. I'd bet serious money that Alpert isn't just time traveling around.. Hell, the writers had Juliette say that Richard is "always" there, and that he is very, very old.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I think they're being influenced by The Stand again.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Ehh, not to rain on your parade, but Alpert didn't even know about time travel in the 50s.. I'd bet serious money that Alpert isn't just time traveling around.. Hell, the writers had Juliette say that Richard is "always" there, and that he is very, very old.


I think he has 4 toes.


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## WinBear (Aug 24, 2000)

It was kind of shocking to see Lance Reddick reprising his role as Matthew Abbadon after he's become a regular on Fringe. I knew he had been in previous episodes, but couldn't remember the context. I'm glad they reminded us him visiting Hurley in the institute and Locke in the hospital.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Ehh, not to rain on your parade, but Alpert didn't even know about time travel in the 50s.. I'd bet serious money that Alpert isn't just time traveling around.. Hell, the writers had Juliette say that Richard is "always" there, and that he is very, very old.


Almost certainly. It's not like John is just casually jumping around in time; it requires a LOT for him to move just once, and Richard would have had to move many, many times to be all the times he's been without ever aging.

No, I think he does his time traveling the hard way...one day at a time.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Paperboy2003 said:
> 
> 
> > When Widmore was with John in Tunisia, he asked John how long ago he saw him and John said it was 4 days ago (when Widmore was 17), and now he is in his 60's. Basically, Alpert is jumping around in time and he stays the same age while everyone else is aging.
> ...


See, when Paperboy said "subtle explanation", I thought he was talking about Abbadon's discussion with Locke about whether or not dying was a choice (not that I think that's what's going on -- doesn't fit with all the other hints about fate/destiny.)


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, I think he does his time traveling the hard way...one day at a time.


You know, that would make a cool sci-fi-type motto for my desk.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I found it interesting that Ben seemed to want John on his team...until he heard Eloise's name, at which point he couldn't murder John fast enough!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok, got my laptop out instead of the iphone.. I can type much faster now. 

First, I called Widmore being their previous leader back when we saw the 1950 flash.

Second, glad they tied up Amadon's story.. I help people get to where they need to go.. Kind of felt like the angel of death..

Third, this season I haven't watched any previews for the next week.. Damn, I'm glad I chose to do that this season.. I just went back and watched the "next week" scenes at the end of the previous episodes (I did NOT watch the one for next week), and damn, they showed a hell of a lot! Last week's one for this week showed Locke talking to Widmore! I was surprised and delighted when I heard him speak and recognized his voice.. that'd have been ruined if I'd watched the previews. For those watching them, I suggest trying not to.

I liked that they acknowledged _in the show_ that Locke's name was the same as a philosopher's (as was Bentham).

I can't believe that at the start I still didn't know exactly where we were.. (inside a Dharma station). If we'd seen this episode first, instead of last week, we'd have heard them say that everyone disappeared, btw, and that would have ruined that surprise.. I'm very happy with the order.

Before figuring out that it was a Dharma station, when I saw the guy (Caesar) find a map of the island, I figured they were raiding Bentham's apartment or something (pre-flight), and when I saw that the woman escorting Sayid (Ilana) was there, for a second I thought "ok, so the two of them are in this together, and they're stealing stuff from Locke's place?", and it briiiiiiefly felt like they were similar to Nikki/Paulo..

Random data:
Life magazine cover: The Awesome Fireball
Color Pictures of Hydrogen Test
(April 19, 1954)
(it also says that Dave Beck, Former Boss of Goons, Emerges as Labor's New Strong Man)
Then when flipping through the magazine, it pretty prominently features the creature from the black lagoon carrying a woman out of the water.

After the map though he sees a picture that has Space Time, Real Time, Imaginary Time, Event A, Event B, Event C, MsomethingCsomething Space.. which I believe was a Daniel drawing, although this time it's not in his book. Maybe he's in Daniel's eventual Dharma office?

At 0:03 into the episode, when Caesar is going to talk to Locke, there's a guy standing just to the right of the fire (from our point of view) wearing a black jacket that looks an awful lot like Charlie Pace, but I could be wrong.

Nice shot of the beach, starting out on Christian's shoes. They certainly picked a damned good idea to film a show about an island with beautiful beaches.. it's gotta beat a show set in the desert or something.

So there were 3 outrigger canoes, and Frank and someone (Sun?) took one.. Sawyer/Juliette/Faraday/etc take another, and the third is probably used by some of these people to chase after them. So who built them? And when?

Watching Locke eat that Mango reminded me of watching him eat that orange in season 1.

So Christian's body is brought to the island (at the very least by Jack), and Chrstian is on the island but at least in the donkey-wheel room can't help Locke up.. but Locke's body is brought to the island, and he walks around alive, able to lift objects like the blanket he was wearing. Maybe Christian could carry things too, except he was only using "remote viewing" or "remote presence" to project himself into the donkey wheel room.. (though he did light and carry that lamp). We shouldn't just be so used to Lost that we don't at least pause to consider the fact that a dead body (that's been kept cold for at least a day or so) was just brought on a plane, landed on the island, and is now alive..
(unless Ben had some of those spiders in his pocket)

So it looks like it was just a filming artifact that when we saw the first shot of Ben lying in Tunesia last season that the sand looked different for the first shot, like it was colder or something, then became sand.. (I remember discussion about that in threads here). In Locke's version, it's regular old sand in every shot.

Nice touch with the camera. Ben's version of the story gets more weight than Widmore's from the presence of that camera now.. We didn't see any camera when Ben arrived, in 2005, so Widmore presumably set it up after Ben came to talk to him (or maybe it was after the O6 hit the news). If I remember Widmore's story though, for his story to be true he'd have wanted to have the cameras up way before that (as opposed to Ben's version, that he wanted to use Locke to get back to the island).

Ok, posting now so I can keep up.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Fleegle said:


> I think he has 4 toes.


Now I am expecting that.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I found it interesting that Ben seemed to want John on his team...until he heard Eloise's name, at which point he couldn't murder John fast enough!


Yeah I was a bit torn on which way to interpret that when I saw it.. As soon as Locke started talking about there being a woman, I knew he'd mention her name and Ben would kill him.. (he does end up dead).. So part of me thought "Well, that's the information *I* needed.. bye John".. But watching the look on Ben's face as he did it, another part of me thought that there must be story we're gonna see where we see that Ben knows that Widmore and Eloise are closely tied together (Widmore is Faraday's dad, maybe?), and that since SHE was involved, Widmore was, and Ben couldn't have Locke talking to her or Widmore or being controlled by anyone else, and he knew the island would bring John back because he knew John was destined to do something in his future that he hadn't done yet. I mean, Ben DOES take Locke along to the island.. that's not what a murder would do for his victim.

I wonder if when Ben goes to meet Hawking, if he says "Hi.. Jacob sent me.. I'm the leader", or "I'm John Locke", or something, hoping she didn't recognize him since she hadn't seen him since he was a kid or something.

I'm thinking back to Ben's look of putting-it-all-together when he heard Desmond say he was there to see Faraday's mom, now with the context of knowing that Ben didn't know she was the one to go see until John told her.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

So, now we know that the Oceanic 6 leaped off, while everyone else on the plane got to take rough way down. And that Ben didn't leap, and neither did Locke. And the pilot and a woman took one of kayaks and went away ... I know the pilot, didn't catch any clues about who the woman was. Not Sun, not Kate. Penny? Who else would Frank know?

So the plane crashed near the Hydra Station, did I see that correctly?

Hurley sees other dead people than Charlie and Eko, maybe? Seemed awfully casual about seeing Locke and thinking he was dead.

So the past happened the way we saw it happen, and Widmore remembers Locke. And Ben tricked Widmore off the island. And Tunisia is an exit from the island - which partially explains the Dharma polar bear but not fully. And when Locke reset/spun the Donkey Wheel he wound up 3 years into the future, whereas Ben only went 10 months ahead. Locke probably does better spinning on Wheel of Fortune, too. 

I liked it, but it seemed to move very quickly.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Fleegle said:


> I think he has 4 toes.


Of course you noticed that when they had a shot of Locke in his cast....he had four toes....


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Oooh, it just occurred to me that maybe Locke was fixing the wheel that wasn't broken by Ben, and not even by Widmore, but maybe by the polar bear ramming away at it!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Ehh, not to rain on your parade, but Alpert didn't even know about time travel in the 50s.. I'd bet serious money that Alpert isn't just time traveling around.. Hell, the writers had Juliette say that Richard is "always" there, and that he is very, very old.


Didn't Richard Alpert come back to the "real world" to recruit Juliette?


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Of course you noticed that when they had a shot of Locke in his cast....he had four toes....


Actually, I haven't seen this episode yet. I'm still at work


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Fleegle said:


> Actually, I haven't seen this episode yet. I'm still at work


So don't read these spoilers!!!

I would love to (just for kicks) see a pic of the statue leg and one of John's in the cast as a comparision.

I think they got it spot on with the scene of Ben and Locke in the motel room. The looks on their faces as they talk to each other and Ben's soothing voice as he gets Locke to come down....it was perfect. Great acting.

I had to cover my eyes and ears while Ben was killing Locke. I couldn't stand to see it.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> Didn't Richard Alpert come back to the "real world" to recruit Juliette?


Yes, he and Ben both.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

betts4 said:


> So don't read these spoilers!!!
> 
> I would love to (just for kicks) see a pic of the statue leg and one of John's in the cast as a comparision.
> 
> ...


Yeah, John looked like he was really getting strangled. A little tough to watch, no doubt. For a guy who always has a plan, Ben has a bit of an impulse control problem, no? I agree with Rob, he wasn't just acting with Locke - when he heard her name, he snapped.

Jeff, I doubt Ben tries to pull one on Eloise by claiming he's Locke. She quite clearly knows him, and knows him as a liar. But I repeat myself.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Loved the fact that they made John Locke have to be in a wheelchair again during his return to 'real life'.


I thought that was ridiculous, not that he was in a chair because that was a good idea, but that he was in a chair because he had a broken leg. I don't know of anyone that used a wheelchair with a broken leg if they were capable of getting around on crutches, including myself.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

It was sad that Helen died..

They did seem to try to wrap up the off-island stories though, because we're probably not coming back to any of that.. Amadon's path led there, story wise and in his story life, so wrap it up now. Helen wouldn't exactly have been a dangling thread, but it's good that Locke wanted to look her up.

The school that Sayid was building had written on the outside wall some math charts for kids it seems:

1x9=9
2x9=18
3x9=27
4x9=36

of course if it was tall enough to make it to 12x9, well that would be 108.

So.. There will be people on the beach all around John in his suite, wanting to hurt him.. (at least according to Taller Non-Ghost Walt's dream)

I loved that the idea of talking to John alive was far more startling to Hurley than if he were dead. His reaction to Suzie's confirmation that he's "talking to a dude in a wheelchair right now" was perfect.

One thing I don't get is why when Jack shows Kate the newspaper clipping of Bentham's death at the end of season 3, she says "Why would *I* go to the funeral??!?", as if she had nothing but contempt for whomever was in the coffin.. In the scene with her and Locke, she talked to him rather calmly.. Their talk about Helen hardly left her in a state where she'd be repulsed by the idea of going to his funeral.

Helen died on 4/8. 

Hadn't noticed that we only see 4 toes through the cast, but you're right, there's one scene where all you can see is 4. When he's hanging himself though, there's one where you can clearly see all 5.

So yet another time when someone was about to commit suicide, but they were stopped right before doing it..


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

betts4 said:


> Yes, he and Ben both.


Both? Richard was at Mittelos labs with Ethan to get Juliette, but Ben wasn't there. We saw Ben born off of the island, we saw him leave via the donkey wheel and 2005-2008 scenes of him off the island, and we saw a picture that Miles had of him wearing a white vest. I don't think we've seen Ben off island (aside from his birth) pre-donkey-wheel.

He had a room on the island with lots of clothes and passports.. ..but we didn't see him off the island before the donkey wheel.. (at least not yet)


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

I gagged during the leg resetting scene... I have nightmares about that crap, haha... 

Some thoughts:

The "christian not helping Locke up" thing doesn't necessarily mean that he COULDN'T pick him up, just that he WOULDN'T. I've been speculating that Locke would be fine once he got back to the island, and once I realized that I figured CS really did "survive" the crash and while Jack did see apparations of him early on, he was actually still alive and well elsewhere (as confirmed when he approached claire). He could have been projecting himself in the scene with Locke but my guess is the lantern wasn't there by accident-they were say yes he's actually here... 

I also called that Widmore was the leader and that Ben exiled him, back when we saw Jughead. They're both crazy who knows which side is telling the truth of what happened. 

I'm also of the group that doesn't really get what Ben did. He convinced Locke not to kill himself because they had to fight Widmore, then once Locke mentioned Hawking, he wasted him. But then HE goes to Hawking and works with her to get back to the island anyway. I could see it if that wasn't the case, but why kill Locke if you're just gonna work with her anyway? Obviously there's a history there. 

Am I the only one totally underwhelmed by the Locke/Jack scene? Not only was it kind of anti-climactic, but it didn't seem to jive with Jack's recollection in the finale about how "it was all his fault" and "very bad things happened because he left"... This meeting with Locke was supposed to be part of the catalyst for his downfall, but I didn't see it from the actual scene. When Jack was drilling into him about not being special, I thought it was the perfect opportunity for him to reveal he was paralyzed, but not a mention. He hasn't told him still, I don't think... I don't know, considering they're the two opposing forces of the show, I would have expected much more from this scene. They don't even DISCUSS what happened since they left.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

OOh.. maybe Ben saw Eloise Hawking die, saw her body dead as a doornail.. Hearing that she's in town might have revealed to Ben that the island can even bring people back from death to keep destiny happy.. (or maybe we just skip the 'island' part and go straight to destiny).. so he figured that John was supposed to die, and that he just stopped it.

Oh.. Maybe earlier in his life Ben met older-than-now Eloise, and she told him about one of their leaders that had hung himself.. He realizes that Locke was SUPPOSED to hang himself, and that he just messed that up, so he kills him (not looking happy about doing it), re-stages it as the suicide that it would have been if he hadn't showed up, and leaves (even though he never changed anything.. he ALWAYS interrupted, and ALWAYS killed Locke - it was "never" a suicide)


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> It was sad that Helen died..


I had the weird sense that Widmore got a tombstone created for Helen just to make John think she was dead. The "driver" couldn't locate her, but found Sayid building houses in Santo Domingo?

Like if John knew she was alive he might not go back to the island. I picture her living in Bakersfield or something.

But John was determined to get back to the island, so it doesn't make a lot of sense. Just my initial reaction to the scene at the cemetary.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I took it as that he'd actually found her, saw she was dead, and figured that telling Locke he couldn't find her (maybe she'd married, moved, etc) would be less painful.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Angels Hardware.. Helping people commit suicide since 1954!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

"I'll miss you John. I really will."


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> I took it as that he'd actually found her, saw she was dead, and figured that telling Locke he couldn't find her (maybe she'd married, moved, etc) would be less painful.


That was my feeling, based on his reaction to Locke dressing him down about not being able to find her. He was trying to save Locke the pain. Interesting.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Ehh, not to rain on your parade, but Alpert didn't even know about time travel in the 50s.. I'd bet serious money that Alpert isn't just time traveling around.. Hell, the writers had Juliette say that Richard is "always" there, and that he is very, very old.


I'm telling you that Latin is his native tongue.

So who's telling the truth? 
Widmore?
Ben?
Neither?

That there was a power struggle between the two is apparent but the details seem to be awash amidst all of the falsehoods.

And where did Frank scoot off to?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Something unimportant, but interesting. A spoiler site is reporting that the opening scene in this episode (with the two people poking around, then the reveal of John Locke on the beach) was the original opening for S5E1, but they moved it around for some reason.

Also, jkeegan mentioned that Locke in Tunisia looked different, and it did, but it wasn't a "filming artifact". When Ben arrived, he had steam coming off his body because he'd been in the frozen room with the donkey wheel. It was also bits of ice a few inches around his body on the ground, which is likely why it looked different. When Locke was moving the donkey wheel it wasn't frozen, hence no ice when he arrived in Tunisia.

I will say that once again, the Locke episode is filled with emotion. Historically it's been that way going all the way back to Lockedown (I think that's the name, when we found out Locke was in the wheelchair).

The man's name is Matthew Abaddon, not Amadon.

Now I'll go to bed and sleep on this episode. See you guys in the morning. 

Greg


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

gchance said:


> Something unimportant, but interesting. A spoiler site is reporting that the opening scene in this episode (with the two people poking around, then the reveal of John Locke on the beach) was the original opening for S5E1, but they moved it around for some reason.
> 
> Also, jkeegan mentioned that Locke in Tunisia looked different, and it did, but it wasn't a "filming artifact". When Ben arrived, he had steam coming off his body because he'd been in the frozen room with the donkey wheel. It was also bits of ice a few inches around his body on the ground, which is likely why it looked different. When Locke was moving the donkey wheel it wasn't frozen, hence no ice when he arrived in Tunisia.
> 
> ...


I believe that episode was Walkabout.. and thank you on Abaddon's name, I knew it felt wrong when I typed it.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I like how the survivors from 316 seem to have people playing the same roles as the 815ers. Cesar seems like a Jack/Sayid composite and Illana reminds me of Kate and Ana Lucia. Illana mentioned that they'd have to talk to Susie for the manifest, so maybe Susie is like Sawyer.


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## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> I like how the survivors from 316 seem to have people playing the same roles as the 815ers. Cesar seems like a Jack/Sayid composite and Illana reminds me of Kate and Ana Lucia. Illana mentioned that they'd have to talk to Susie for the manifest, so maybe Susie is like Sawyer.


Interesting that Cesar hides the gun and lies about it. Sawyer-like?


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

GadgetFreak said:


> Interesting that Cesar hides the gun and lies about it. Sawyer-like?


Yep - and actually I heard wrong before, Illana said they'd have to check with Cesar for the passenger list, not "Susie" 

But then again, that's a habit everyone on the island seems to share - finding stuff and not sharing!


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## TiVoDan (Jun 2, 2002)

In the previous season, it appeared as if there was several months between when John contacted Jack to tell him he needed to go back, and when Jack showed up at Johns funeral. But in this episode it appears that john death was almost immediately after. Am I the only one bothered by this?


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

Why doesn't Walt have to go back to the island? Is it because he and his father left under different circumstances perhaps?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I don't think Locke and the crash is on the right island yet. They are on the "other" island that the others used, where the cages were.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> They did seem to try to wrap up the off-island stories though, because we're probably not coming back to any of that..


Except for all the dangling threads (the gaps) from last week. I still think there will be a co-episode for last week that tells the other half of thsoe stories.


jkeegan said:


> Both? Richard was at Mittelos labs with Ethan to get Juliette, but Ben wasn't there. We saw Ben born off of the island, we saw him leave via the donkey wheel and 2005-2008 scenes of him off the island, and we saw a picture that Miles had of him wearing a white vest. I don't think we've seen Ben off island (aside from his birth) pre-donkey-wheel.
> 
> He had a room on the island with lots of clothes and passports.. ..but we didn't see him off the island before the donkey wheel.. (at least not yet)


He had to leave for the last time (well, now we know maybe not the last time, but you know what I mean) via the donkey wheel because he no longer had a submarine. But there's no reason whatsoever to assume that he did not come and go on a regular basis before John blew up the sub.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Hurley seemed to be the only one really surprised to see Locke.

It probably doesn't matter but how did Locke 'spin the wheel' with a compound fracture of the leg so serious it tore through his pants leg?

Excerpt from Wikipedia:


> The symbolism of Revelation 9:11 leaves the exact identification of Abaddon open for interpretation. Some bible scholars believe him to be the antichrist[4] or Satan.[5][6][7]
> 
> Jehovah's witnesses believe that Abaddon is Jesus. [8](However, original Jehovah's Witness doctrine stated that Abaddon was Satan.)[9]
> 
> ...


According to Wikipedia, Apollion is the Greek name for Abaddon.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> Didn't Richard Alpert come back to the "real world" to recruit Juliette?


And don't forget that Richard went to visit a young John Locke. Richard might seem to Julliette to always be on the island, but I stand by my assumption that he can jump off the island at will and jump around in time as well


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Delta13 said:


> So, now we know that the Oceanic 6 leaped off, while everyone else on the plane got to take rough way down. ... And the pilot and a woman took one of kayaks and went away ... I know the pilot, didn't catch any clues about who the woman was. Not Sun, not Kate. Penny? Who else would Frank know?


I don't think we know where Sun went. She may not have *leapt* ofg with the Jack, etc; she could be who who went with Frank.

Penny was on the flight?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Hurley seemed to be the only one really surprised to see Locke.


I don't think it was that he was surprised to see Locke, per se, but that he was surprised that after all the ghosts he's seen, Locke turned out to be real. Locke shook his confidence in his insanity.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> One thing I don't get is why when Jack shows Kate the newspaper clipping of Bentham's death at the end of season 3, she says "Why would *I* go to the funeral??!?", as if she had nothing but contempt for whomever was in the coffin.. In the scene with her and Locke, she talked to him rather calmly.. Their talk about Helen hardly left her in a state where she'd be repulsed by the idea of going to his funeral.


I didn't take that as a statement of contempt at all, even before we knew who it was. In fact, the only way I thought it was possible for that to be Ben was if Ben had done something to redeem himself in her eyes enough so she would be ambivalent about his death.

I took it as her saying she had no connection to Locke other than that they had both been on the island together, and that didn't seem like reason enough to want to go to his funeral. I think she was more against the idea of being drawn back into "island business" than Locke himself.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I think Ben was getting information from Locke because he wanted to be the one to save the island, and prove he was still their true leader. The way he said "goodbye" makes me think he wasn't expecting Locke to ever be alive again. I don't think Ben tried to pretend he was John, but he most likely did try to convince Eloise that the island had sent him to save it.

Eloise, however, might have known something was up, perhaps because Charles Widmore had told her about John or because she suspected that someone else would have been chosen. At one point or another she found out about John's death, and knew she had to get John back to the island, but feared what Ben would do if he thought John could still be a threat. So she made up the idea that the events of the original crash had to be reproduced, which served as not only a reason to get the Oceanic 6 on the plane, but John as well. Maybe Christian's shoes were a means of annointing John to indicate that he was the Chosen One.

It could be that Ben was only protecting John's dead body because he thought it was his only way back to the island, and not because he thought the island would revive him.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Am I the only one totally underwhelmed by the Locke/Jack scene? Not only was it kind of anti-climactic, but it didn't seem to jive with Jack's recollection in the finale about how "it was all his fault" and "very bad things happened because he left"... This meeting with Locke was supposed to be part of the catalyst for his downfall, but I didn't see it from the actual scene. When Jack was drilling into him about not being special, I thought it was the perfect opportunity for him to reveal he was paralyzed, but not a mention. He hasn't told him still, I don't think... I don't know, considering they're the two opposing forces of the show, I would have expected much more from this scene. They don't even DISCUSS what happened since they left.


I think more discussion happened during Locke's stay at the hospital, but they didn't want to bore us with details that we already knew.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't think Locke and the crash is on the right island yet. They are on the "other" island that the others used, where the cages were.


OHHHH!!! Maybe that's why the others were building a "runway" on the 2nd island - so the eventual 316 crash delivering Locke back to the island could almost land ok and not kill everyone/him!!!


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't think Locke and the crash is on the right island yet.  They are on the "other" island that the others used, where the cages were.


Yes. The Hydra.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> OHHHH!!! Maybe that's why the others were building a "runway" on the 2nd island - so the eventual 316 crash delivering Locke back to the island could almost land ok and not kill everyone/him!!!


I heard that theory from someone last week and liked it.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Damn it I love this show


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Somebody mentioned earlier in the thread about Jack and Locke's conversation and how that wouldn't have set off Jack on his drinking binge. It was the last thing that John said:

"Your father says hello."

This disturbed Jack on so many level because he had seen his "living" dad on the island in season 1. I believe this is what set him off.

I'm guessing Lapedus and Sun took the boat to the main island to find Jin and the others. 

It seems that everybody is now accounted for except for Sayid. Neither Desmond nor Penny were on the plane (somebody mentioned this earlier).

Plus, my speculation is that Ben's loose end to tied up before boarding the plane was to take care of Penny. Something happened there and he got beat up...time will tell.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I'm telling you that Latin is his native tongue.


The four toed statue was wearing an Ancient Roman style sandal. I think Richard Alpert has 4 toes and that Latin is his native language also.

My take was that Ben did not intend to kill Locke until he mentioned Eloise. That seemed to set Ben off.

Still, we know from previous episodes that Ben felt that it was imperative that Locke's body be kept safe and brought back to the island.

Ben seemed to know that Locke would "resurrect" once he was brought back there.

Very mysterious....

Finally, I've thought for the last couple of seasons that essentially no-one on Lost is purely "Good" or "Evil.

This isn't a "Good vs. Evil" story.

There have always been multiple factions vying for control of the island. The two primary ones in "present day" are Ben Linus and Widmore. Both of them seem to be rather ruthless bastards, actually. More "evil" than "good", both of them.

At one time, the Darhma initiative was another factor vying for control of the island. They referred to Richard Alpert's people as "The Hostiles". Ben, as a teen, turned against the Darhma initiative and helped "The Hostiles" (Others) kill them all. It seems that the Darhma initiative was one of the more benevolent groups vying for control of the island, but we've seen glimpses of evidence that even their hands were not 100% clean.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Jeeters said:


> I don't think we know where Sun went. She may not have *leapt* ofg with the Jack, etc; she could be who who went with Frank.
> 
> Penny was on the flight?


Sun and Sayid are unaccounted for at the moment; based on what we've seen you would have to assume they "flashed" like the rest of the O6. I mention Penny because an unknown woman took off with Frank in a kayak, and I don't know of anyone else Frank would know. I suppose Charlotte is a remote possibility.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

The cruelest line of the night. "And look how far you've come." Poor Locke. I watched the first four eps of Season One for the first time in years this week. Walkabout (What an ending!) was fresh in my mind as I watched last night's ep . Such a pathetic figure. And I mean that in a loving way.

How good are O'Quinn and Emerson?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I heard that theory from someone last week and liked it.


I hope they hurried and finished it - Kate and Sawyer didn't get very far moving them rocks!


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## martylamb (Sep 29, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't think Locke and the crash is on the right island yet. They are on the "other" island that the others used, where the cages were.





Fool Me Twice said:


> Yes. The Hydra.


Well, that would seem to explain where the pilot and mystery woman took the boat.


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## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

Jeeters said:


> I don't think we know where Sun went. She may not have *leapt* ofg with the Jack, etc; she could be who who went with Frank.
> 
> Penny was on the flight?


Eloise Hawking?


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Fool Me Twice said:


> The cruelest line of the night. "And look how far you've come." Poor Locke. I watched the first four eps of Season One for the first time in years this week. Walkabout was fresh in my mind as I watched last night's ep (What an ending!). Such a pathetic figure. And I mean that in a loving way.
> 
> How good are O'Quinn and Emerson?


While I don't remember ever seeing Michael Emerson (Ben) before, Terry O'Quinn has been around a while (X-Files, Alias come to mind). Of the stuff I've seen before Lost, I was willing to dismiss him as a simple character actor. Bit parts and the like. But it seems to me that O'Quinn has immersed himself completely in the role. Very impressive. It's too bad that shows like Lost don't win acting Emmys because I think he deserves at the very least a nomination.

I still don't trust Widmore. I'd love to know why Ben decided to kill Locke.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

Fool Me Twice said:


> The cruelest line of the night. "And look how far you've come." Poor Locke. I watched the first four eps of Season One for the first time in years this week. Walkabout was fresh in my mind as I watched last night's ep (What an ending!). Such a pathetic figure. And I mean that in a loving way.
> 
> How good are O'Quinn and Emerson?


I was going to mention that line as well. This show is rocking right now. This will be a series that people will talk about for years to come.

I was so impressed with O'quinn this episode. He didn't feel comfortable off the island, heck he was a failure in everything of the island. But back on the beach, he was in command of himself again.


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## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> So Christian's body is brought to the island (at the very least by Jack), and Chrstian is on the island but at least in the donkey-wheel room can't help Locke up.. but Locke's body is brought to the island, and he walks around alive, able to lift objects like the blanket he was wearing. Maybe Christian could carry things too, except he was only using "remote viewing" or "remote presence" to project himself into the donkey wheel room.. (though he did light and carry that lamp). We shouldn't just be so used to Lost that we don't at least pause to consider the fact that a dead body (that's been kept cold for at least a day or so) was just brought on a plane, landed on the island, and is now alive..
> (unless Ben had some of those spiders in his pocket)


Could it be that Christian's body had been embalmed and Locke's wasn't?
That's why Ben needed to keep him in the meatlocker?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Ack! I hate when I have to fix a post that's been quoted. The quoted posts don't change... Oh well.

From a post above: Walkabout was fresh in my mind as I watched last night's ep (What an ending!)"

Changed to: Walkabout (What an ending!) was fresh in my mind as I watched last night's ep 

I matters to me anyway...


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## Unseen Llama (Nov 29, 2005)

Sirius Black said:


> While I don't remember ever seeing Michael Emerson (Ben) before, Terry O'Quinn has been around a while (X-Files, Alias come to mind). Of the stuff I've seen before Lost, I was willing to dismiss him as a simple character actor. Bit parts and the like. But it seems to me that O'Quinn has immersed himself completely in the role. Very impressive. It's too bad that shows like Lost don't win acting Emmys because I think he deserves at the very least a nomination.
> 
> I still don't trust Widmore. I'd love to know why Ben decided to kill Locke.


Don't forget O'Quinn was the father in The Cutting Edge...


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Sirius Black said:


> O'Quinn has immersed himself completely in the role. Very impressive. It's too bad that shows like Lost don't win acting Emmys because I think he deserves at the very least a nomination.


He won an Emmy for Locke a couple of years ago. :up:


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

TiVoDan said:


> In the previous season, it appeared as if there was several months between when John contacted Jack to tell him he needed to go back, and when Jack showed up at Johns funeral. But in this episode it appears that john death was almost immediately after. Am I the only one bothered by this?


Yes it bugs me, because wasn't Jack's beard longer the night he returned from the flight and saw the obituary, and tried to kill himself...? And his beard in the hospital room was shorter. And then Ben says, Jack booked a flight... isn't that the same flight we saw Jack take? 
I guess we don't know how much time it's been from when Locke was in the hospital and the night locke was killed. I guess Jack's beard is suppose to tell us.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

What if Ben had to stop Locke from committing suicide because taking his own life would be a sin (in the eyes of the island, Jacob, G-d, or whomever). Ben knew that John had to die, and knew he had to do it, he just wanted to get as much info out of John before he did it.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't think Locke and the crash is on the right island yet. They are on the "other" island that the others used, where the cages were.





Fool Me Twice said:


> Yes. The Hydra.


When Sawyer n' gang got back to their beach and found the airline water bottle... how many boats were there? 2? 
There were 3 total on the hydra island. 
So Lapidus (and presumably Sun) brought one back to the lostie beach, and then other people came along...and started shooting at Sawyer n' gang.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> OHHHH!!! Maybe that's why the others were building a "runway" on the 2nd island - so the eventual 316 crash delivering Locke back to the island could almost land ok and not kill everyone/him!!!


I have to toot my own horn here... (everyone else does it ) Because I brought up the runway in Little Prince discussion 


> I find it very curious that only Juliet knew about Ajira (which is Hindi for island or isle, thanks again lostpedia!)....Wasn't there something about the others building a runway, or was that on the other island nearby?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Cindy1230 said:


> I have to toot my own horn here... (everyone else does it ) Because I brought up the runway in Little Prince discussion


Ah! It was you! What a silly idea.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Abaddon sure wasn't a very effective protector - he reminded me of Fredo Corleone in that respect.


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## jschuman (Feb 20, 2001)

Let's assume that Sun flashed elsewhere with the rest of the O6 (not necessarily a good assumption, but I'll run with it). I think the woman that Frank sailed off with was the security woman that was escorting Sayid.

Here's how it might have gone down: Frank knew they were back, but needed someone else to help him row to wherever he wanted to go. He convinced the escort that he knew where Sayid "flashed to" and she went with him.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

jschuman said:


> Let's assume that Sun flashed elsewhere with the rest of the O6 (not necessarily a good assumption, but I'll run with it). I think the woman that Frank sailed off with was the security woman that was escorting Sayid.
> 
> Here's how it might have gone down: Frank knew they were back, but needed someone else to help him row to wherever he wanted to go. He convinced the escort that he knew where Sayid "flashed to" and she went with him.


Ilana was Sayid's escort, the one talking to Locke.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Damn it I love this show


You seem to, yes. 

Do you listen to Jay & Jack's Lost podcast? I did a few years ago and liked it.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't think Locke and the crash is on the right island yet. They are on the "other" island that the others used, where the cages were.


Good theory, but I don't think it is so.

First that would mean that there are 2 islands with special properties that bring people back to life (Locke). Unless it was the the time-traveling energy field that did it.

And didn't Sawyer, Locke and their group stumble across the 316 crash site on the "main" island while jumping around in time?

I think it's a station we've never seen before. The Temple perhaps?


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

Not directly related to this episode, but my wife had an opportunity to meet Kevin Tighe, who plays Locke's father. Dinner and drinks with a group, so she had a great opportunity to really visit with him. Funny thing- she kept calling him "the real Sawyer" and the other people at the table kept correcting her and saying "No, he's Locke's father". She had to get him to convince the rest of the group that he was, in fact, the "real Sawyer." No real Lost insight except that


Spoiler



he is pretty sure he won't be on the show anymore. guess he will stay dead.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

Cindy1230 said:


> Yes it bugs me, because wasn't Jack's beard longer the night he returned from the flight and saw the obituary, and tried to kill himself...? And his beard in the hospital room was shorter. And then Ben says, Jack booked a flight... isn't that the same flight we saw Jack take?
> I guess we don't know how much time it's been from when Locke was in the hospital and the night locke was killed. I guess Jack's beard is suppose to tell us.


Well, Jack said he had been taking many flights, so the one Ben mentioned was probably the first. Plus, Jack saw the obituary in the newspaper on a return flight, not necessarily the first return flight. It had probably been a short while later judging by the beard growth and time for someone to find Locke and to print the obituary.

Also, it was the fact that Jack read that Locke died, that really pushed him over the edge. He was already spiraling out of control with the drinking and random flights, but once he read the obituary, he almost immediately tried to commit suicide as well. I think this is when he starts really blaming himself.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Cindy1230 said:


> I have to toot my own horn here... (everyone else does it ) Because I brought up the runway in Little Prince discussion


(Tooting Cindy's horn for her, if that's socially acceptable to do.  )

Credit where credit's due, I did read that comment back then, and it apparently seeped into my subconscious..


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## golfnut-n-nh (Nov 30, 2004)

Great episode and I will have to watch again. My wife and I both commented that we found it strange that Walt did not ask about Vincent. Small point, doesn't add or subtract from the story.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Ah! It was you! What a silly idea.





jkeegan said:


> (Tooting Cindy's horn for her, if that's socially acceptable to do.  )
> 
> Credit where credit's due, I did read that comment back then, and it apparently seeped into my subconscious..


Yay! Thanks guys! I finally feel like I fit in


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> Abaddon sure wasn't a very effective protector - he reminded me of Fredo Corleone in that respect.


Well, he did get Locke where Locke needed to be...


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

Peter000 said:


> Good theory, but I don't think it is so.
> 
> First that would mean that there are 2 islands with special properties that bring people back to life (Locke). Unless it was the the time-traveling energy field that did it.
> 
> ...


No, it was definitely the Hydra station. Ceaser was in Ben's office that we saw in a couple scenes in early season 3. Also, the logo was the Hydra. Plus in a couple shots, they showed them on the smaller island with the big island in the distance.

I'm guessing Frank was able to crash land on the partially completed runway. Hmm, perhaps Ben had already known this series of events was going to occur.

Sawyer and team discovered a couple of the outriggers with an Ajira water bottle in it on the main island. However, it wasn't the 316 crash site, but rather the original 815 camp with evidence of new visitors (no beer, outriggers and water bottle).

That scene presented them as having flashed to a future time (the original 815 camp existed but was all in shambles) so that means 316 probably crashed in present time (early 2008). The only ones that time traveled were those that flashed off the plane.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, he did get Locke where Locke needed to be...


Yeah, but he could have just drove him to hospital to visit Jack - heck, that was probably their next stop, anyway.

But I guess Adaddon had to die, since he wasn't going to let Locke die while he was alive...


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

golfnut-n-nh said:


> Great episode and I will have to watch again. My wife and I both commented that we found it strange that Walt did not ask about Vincent. Small point, doesn't add or subtract from the story.


Not too surprising, considering he's been back for several years.

With all the attention to details on the show, I was bothered that the noose was very visibly hanging loose when Ben was leaving John's apt.
(even more amplified in the shadow scene)


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> I think they're being influenced by The Stand again.


I'd lean more towards "The Gunslinger."



latrobe7 said:


> I like how the survivors from 316 seem to have people playing the same roles as the 815ers. Cesar seems like a Jack/Sayid composite and Illana reminds me of Kate and Ana Lucia. Illana mentioned that they'd have to talk to Susie for the manifest, so maybe Susie is like Sawyer.


This plays into my thought from last week. These new 316'ers are playing the roles of the 815'ers we came to know. So was someone playing the role on 815 that the 815'ers were playing on 316?



Paperboy2003 said:


> What if Ben had to stop Locke from committing suicide because taking his own life would be a sin (in the eyes of the island, Jacob, G-d, or whomever). Ben knew that John had to die, and knew he had to do it, he just wanted to get as much info out of John before he did it.


My wife threw this out, too. There's no evidence to dismiss it, that's for sure.



Peter000 said:


> Good theory, but I don't think it is so.
> 
> First that would mean that there are 2 islands with special properties that bring people back to life (Locke). Unless it was the the time-traveling energy field that did it.
> 
> ...


I noticed another post answered this, but I'll just chime in with: They didn't come across the Ajira crash site, they came across, if I remember correctly, water bottles and debris that could have floated there easily.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> With all the attention to details on the show, I was bothered that the noose was very visibly hanging loose when Ben was leaving John's apt.
> (even more amplified in the shadow scene)


Loose how? Empty? I remember that shadow scene as John hanging from the noose.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

the cable was forming a J shape before meeting the neck, as in zero tension.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Don't know if this sheds any light but the people in the boat behind Sawyer, Juliette et al, had to have a rifle to shoot at them. Couldn't be the new people from the plane (Caesar, Iliana) b/c they had a shotgun. Iliana, being a marshall, might've had a pistol, but couldn't shoot that well from that distance with a handgun on a moving ocean(I wouldn't think)


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> I thought that was ridiculous, not that he was in a chair because that was a good idea, but that he was in a chair because he had a broken leg. I don't know of anyone that used a wheelchair with a broken leg if they were capable of getting around on crutches, including myself.


Although the wheelchair was great symbolism, I agree that it was silly. I immediately thought it was ridiculous when Abaddon got it out of the Range Rover in order to transport John ten feet across sand from the table to the car.


TiVoDan said:


> In the previous season, it appeared as if there was several months between when John contacted Jack to tell him he needed to go back, and when Jack showed up at Johns funeral. But in this episode it appears that john death was almost immediately after. Am I the only one bothered by this?


Someone else also mentioned the length of Jack's beard and the many flights Jack had been taking. I think Jack spent the next month or so flying across the Pacific and spiraling out of control. The only thing that doesn't make sense is why Ben's obit and funeral would be happening after all that time. Perhaps much more time passed between Jack and Locke meeting in the hospital and the Locke and Ben scene in the hotel room.


jradford said:


> I noticed another post answered this, but I'll just chime in with: They didn't come across the Ajira crash site, they came across, if I remember correctly, water bottles and debris that could have floated there easily.


There was no debris or wreckage that Sawyer and Juliet's group found. They only found the two outriggers and an Ajira Air water bottle. It was later in that episode when they stumbled upon debris, but that was after a flash and turned out to be the wreckage from Danielle's boat.

In last week's thread, someone posted a spoiler that these two episodes (316 and L&D of Bentham) could have been shown in any order. I totally disagree. First, by seeing Cesar and Ilana in 316, we knew what was going on in the opening scene of this episode. Second, we would have known that flight 316 crashed on the Island. Third, we would have known that Locke was resurrected when he returned to the Island. All of those things would have ruined 316. Also, the fact that we saw Ben at the end of this episode with a beat up face had much more meaning due to the fact that we know he was on the plane and already had the beat up face then.

Widmore mentioned that he was the leader of The Others (although they weren't the Others to him) and that they had protected the Island for three decades. He then said that Ben had tricked him into leaving. So are we to assume that Widmore was on the Island from the mid 50s to the mid 80s? And that Ben tricked Widmore into leaving the Island after the Purge? If that's the case, then is Penny not his biological daughter, or was she born on the Island? Because if Widmore was on the Island until Ben tricked him off, which couldn't have been any earlier than the mid 80s, there's no way Penny is only 20 years old in the show (and even younger when she and Desmond were first dating, before he left on the solo boat race).


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Don't know if this sheds any light but the people in the boat behind Sawyer, Juliette et al, had to have a rifle to shoot at them. Couldn't be the new people from the plane (Caesar, Iliana) b/c they had a shotgun. Iliana, being a marshall, might've had a pistol, but couldn't shoot that well from that distance with a handgun on a moving ocean(I wouldn't think)


No reason it couldn't have been the new people from the plane. People can bring rifles on planes, as long as they're in the cargo hold. Now that the 316 passengers had access to the cargo hold of their plane, there's no reason to think there wasn't a rifle in there. And considering that they were ransacking the Hydra station, I'm sure there were rifles in there too. Weren't the people that were guarding Jack, Kate, Sawyer, etc. in S3 carrying rifles?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

atrac said:


> Why doesn't Walt have to go back to the island? Is it because he and his father left under different circumstances perhaps?


Because we don't want the ghost of Michael running around the Island going "WWWAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLTTTTTTTT!!!!!!"



latrobe7 said:


> Yeah, but he could have just drove him to hospital to visit Jack - heck, that was probably their next stop, anyway.
> 
> But I guess Adaddon had to die, since he wasn't going to let Locke die while he was alive...


Well, he was only a Fringe character.


----------



## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Although the wheelchair was great symbolism, I agree that it was silly. I immediately thought it was ridiculous when Abaddon got it out of the Range Rover in order to transport John ten feet across sand from the table to the car.
> ...
> Someone else also mentioned the length of Jack's beard and the many flights Jack had been taking. I think Jack spent the next month or so flying across the Pacific and spiraling out of control. The only thing that doesn't make sense is why _Locke's_ obit and funeral would be happening after all that time. Perhaps much more time passed between Jack and Locke meeting in the hospital and the Locke and Ben scene in the hotel room.


I thought the same thing about them first showing the wheelchair, but let it go as more symbolic than anything else. About that second part, maybe they goofed. I think you (or whoever mentioned it before) is right about Jacks beard length being the time marker and they meant for it to be at least a few weeks in between Locke and Jacks meeting, but in the suicide/murder scene Ben tells Locke that Jack booked a flight to Sydney. So that wouldn't make sense, unless Jack as a fast growing beard or they held on to Lockes funeral process till Jack got back. Soooo either they goofed the beard or Bens line?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> In last week's thread, someone posted a spoiler that these two episodes (316 and L&D of Bentham) could have been shown in any order. I totally disagree. First, by seeing Cesar and Ilana in 316, we knew what was going on in the opening scene of this episode. Second, we would have known that flight 316 crashed on the Island. Third, we would have known that Locke was resurrected when he returned to the Island. All of those things would have ruined 316. Also, the fact that we saw Ben at the end of this episode with a beat up face had much more meaning due to the fact that we know he was on the plane and already had the beat up face then.


I guess the writers/producers disagree, since they wrote and shot this to be the first of the two, and only switched them after they were both in the can.

But I do agree with you and them that in the end, this order works better.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

atrac said:


> Why doesn't Walt have to go back to the island? Is it because he and his father left under different circumstances perhaps?


Who said Walt doesn't have to go back? Locke said he's "been through enough". Locke made the decision. Honestly, I think it's just Locke making another stupid move.



Sirius Black said:


> Of the stuff I've seen before Lost, I was willing to dismiss him as a simple character actor. Bit parts and the like.


Back in the 80s, The Stepfather was a fairly big slasher movie. Not big as in Friday the 13th or Nightmare On Elm Street, but big enough. It got two sequels (only one of which had O'Quinn), and is even being considered right now for a remake. The opening scene is extremely memorable, could even be a Lost flashback... a twisted one with a naked Terry O'Quinn, but you get the idea. 








Honora said:


> Could it be that Christian's body had been embalmed and Locke's wasn't?
> That's why Ben needed to keep him in the meatlocker?


Can we PLEASE put to rest the notion that Locke wasn't really dead? We saw Ben choke him out with a power cord pretty nastily! There's no way Locke survived that, spider or not.



DevdogAZ said:


> In last week's thread, someone posted a spoiler that these two episodes (316 and L&D of Bentham) could have been shown in any order. I totally disagree. First, by seeing Cesar and Ilana in 316, we knew what was going on in the opening scene of this episode. Second, we would have known that flight 316 crashed on the Island. Third, we would have known that Locke was resurrected when he returned to the Island. All of those things would have ruined 316. Also, the fact that we saw Ben at the end of this episode with a beat up face had much more meaning due to the fact that we know he was on the plane and already had the beat up face then.


It was Lindelof & Cuse who said they could be seen in either order, but in the end they decided to flip/flop.

Anyway, when I got to work I talked about this episode a bit with a guy here who loves Lost. He said it was a boring episode and he fell asleep during it! He just kept going on about how slow it was moving. I don't understand why he felt that way.

Greg


----------



## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

JYoung said:


> Because we don't want the ghost of Michael running around the Island going "WWWAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLTTTTTTTT!!!!!!"
> 
> Well, he was only a Fringe character.


.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> OOh.. maybe Ben saw Eloise Hawking die, saw her body dead as a doornail.. Hearing that she's in town might have revealed to Ben that the island can even bring people back from death to keep destiny happy.. (or maybe we just skip the 'island' part and go straight to destiny).. so he figured that John was supposed to die, and that he just stopped it.
> 
> Oh.. Maybe earlier in his life Ben met older-than-now Eloise, and she told him about one of their leaders that had hung himself.. He realizes that Locke was SUPPOSED to hang himself, and that he just messed that up, so he kills him (not looking happy about doing it), re-stages it as the suicide that it would have been if he hadn't showed up, and leaves (even though he never changed anything.. he ALWAYS interrupted, and ALWAYS killed Locke - it was "never" a suicide)


It seemed to me that, at least at the time he killed Locke, Ben thought that it was for good. Hence...



jkeegan said:


> "I'll miss you John. I really will."


My guess is that Ben subsequently spoke with Mrs. Hawking, and that whatever she told him convinced him that Locke's body needed to be brought to the island.



DevdogAZ said:


> No reason it couldn't have been the new people from the plane. People can bring rifles on planes, as long as they're in the cargo hold. Now that the 316 passengers had access to the cargo hold of their plane, there's no reason to think there wasn't a rifle in there. And considering that they were ransacking the Hydra station, I'm sure there were rifles in there too. Weren't the people that were guarding Jack, Kate, Sawyer, etc. in S3 carrying rifles?


Also, there are probably other weapons hidden at the station. Who better to find them than Ben, once he regains consciousness?


----------



## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

JYoung said:


> So who's telling the truth?
> Widmore?
> Ben?
> Neither?


The partial truth? Both.

The whole truth? Neither.



JYoung said:


> And where did Frank scoot off to?


The main Island?



TiVoDan said:


> But in this episode it appears that john death was almost immediately after. Am I the only one bothered by this?


We don't know how much time passed between John's visit to Jack and his failed suicide and successful murder.



3D said:


> My guess is that Ben subsequently spoke with Mrs. Hawking, and that whatever she told him convinced him that Locke's body needed to be brought to the island.


I thought that Eloise's name was the one piece of information that Ben didn't have. He already knew that Locke had to die to get back to the Island, but couldn't let him die until he knew exactly *how* to get back.


----------



## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Here's how I see it. Ben did not want to leave the island. He was fairly sure that he couldn't go back and that he was giving control over to John.Once he saw that John had left as well and was trying to go back he wanted to be in league so maybe he could go back. Once John told him who he needed to see to get back he no longer needed John and killed him so there would be no competition once back on the island.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

aintnosin said:


> I thought that Eloise's name was the one piece of information that Ben didn't have. He already knew that Locke had to die to get back to the Island, but couldn't let him die until he knew exactly *how* to get back.


If he knew that Locke had to die, why did he talk him out of hanging himself? I took it that Ben did not want Locke and Hawking to speak with each other, so he killed Locke before they got the chance. I suspect that when Ben first approaches Hawking, he tells her that he had been trying to help Locke get back to the island, but then Locke went ahead and killed himself. Hawking then says something like "good, where's the body, we'll be needing it."


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Test said:


> I thought the same thing about them first showing the wheelchair, but let it go as more symbolic than anything else. About that second part, maybe they goofed. I think you (or whoever mentioned it before) is right about Jacks beard length being the time marker and they meant for it to be at least a few weeks in between Locke and Jacks meeting, but in the suicide/murder scene Ben tells Locke that Jack booked a flight to Sydney. So that wouldn't make sense, unless Jack as a fast growing beard or they held on to Lockes funeral process till Jack got back. Soooo either they goofed the beard or Bens line?


Ben said that Jack had booked a flight to Sydney, leaving tonight, with a return trip first thing in the morning. I think we're supposed to believe that this was the first of Jack's many flights across the Pacific in the month or two after meeting with Locke and before seeing the obituary. The only mystery is whether Locke had been dead that entire time and the obit/funeral were postponed for some reason (nobody found the body for a long time?) or whether the scene where Ben killed Locke was actually several weeks after the meeting between Locke and Jack in the hospital.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BrandonRe said:


>


Apparently, they don't like hot linking.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

danplaysbass said:


> Here's how I see it. Ben did not want to leave the island. He was fairly sure that he couldn't go back and that he was giving control over to John.Once he saw that John had left as well and was trying to go back he wanted to be in league so maybe he could go back. Once John told him who he needed to see to get back he no longer needed John and killed him so there would be no competition once back on the island.


There's no way that Ben was simply trying to get information out of Locke and once he knew Eloise Hawkings name, that was all he needed. If that were the case, he'd have let Locke continue talking and give as much information as he had. Rather, Ben snapped when he heard Hawking's name, because he knew that Locke hooking up with her would be detrimental to his plan, whatever that may be.


----------



## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

Sirius Black said:


> Terry O'Quinn has been around a while (X-Files, Alias come to mind). Of the stuff I've seen before Lost, I was willing to dismiss him as a simple character actor. Bit parts and the like. But it seems to me that O'Quinn has immersed himself completely in the role. Very impressive. It's too bad that shows like Lost don't win acting Emmys because I think he deserves at the very least a nomination.


Terry O'Quinn was the first person on Lost I recognized as seeing before and, for me, gave the show instant credibility. He was definitely one of the reasons I continued to watch early on because he has a knack for appearing in tv shows I like.

He seems to excel in Sci Fi roles - Chris Carter also seems to like him. He had a large parts in two of my favorite Sci Fi TV shows - Millennium and Harsh Realm.

He plays a good tough guy, and on Lost he has shown vulnerability and self doubt missing from other roles he has taken. Anyway, he definitely has made a nice career for himself even if mostly character actor.

BTW - O'Quinn won an Emmy in 2007 for his role as John Locke


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Sirius Black said:


> While I don't remember ever seeing Michael Emerson (Ben) before...


Emerson won an Emmy for playing a particularly chilling serial killer over the span of two seasons on _The Practice_, and he was also a main character in the original _Saw_ movie, so I knew he was a baddie when he first appeared on _Lost_, despite the whole Henry Gale charade. He's simply too good at it to waste him as a bit player or minor character.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Someone else also mentioned the length of Jack's beard and the many flights Jack had been taking. I think Jack spent the next month or so flying across the Pacific and spiraling out of control. The only thing that doesn't make sense is why Ben's obit and funeral would be happening after all that time. Perhaps much more time passed between Jack and Locke meeting in the hospital and the Locke and Ben scene in the hotel room.


That's exactly how I took it as well - the parting comment by Locke that Jack's father was alive sent Jack on a downward spiral of drinking/taking painkillers and trying to get back to the island by taking airline flights back and forth across the South Pacific. Based on the length of his beard in this scene and from the flash-forward last year, I would agree that it's likely a month or so.

As for the time gap, maybe it took Jack a few weeks after the hospital meeting with Locke to summon up the courage (liquid or otherwise) to try and go back to the island. So even if what Ben was referring to was Jack's first flight, it could still fit.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Fool Me Twice said:


> He won an Emmy for Locke a couple of years ago. :up:


Well, that's news to me. Good for him. Well deserved. Now, let's get one for Emerson too.

I don't know what ABC is going to do when this show ends... They have nothing else even remotely this interesting right now. Not even the remake of _Life on Mars_ is this good.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So I'm Jewish and all, and might mess this up, but is Locke Jesus? You know, with the whole dying for his friends and being resurrected sort of thing. Not literally Jesus, but more like Aslan, in allegory.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

That would make Ben Jewish


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Cindy1230 said:


> Yes it bugs me, because wasn't Jack's beard longer the night he returned from the flight and saw the obituary, and tried to kill himself...? And his beard in the hospital room was shorter. And then Ben says, Jack booked a flight... isn't that the same flight we saw Jack take?
> I guess we don't know how much time it's been from when Locke was in the hospital and the night locke was killed. I guess Jack's beard is suppose to tell us.





DevdogAZ said:


> Ben said that Jack had booked a flight to Sydney, leaving tonight, with a return trip first thing in the morning. I think we're supposed to believe that this was the first of Jack's many flights across the Pacific in the month or two after meeting with Locke and before seeing the obituary. The only mystery is whether Locke had been dead that entire time and the obit/funeral were postponed for some reason (nobody found the body for a long time?) or whether the scene where Ben killed Locke was actually several weeks after the meeting between Locke and Jack in the hospital.


This. When Ben mentioned Jack's plane trip, I immediately went to "oh, that's his first plane trip before he spirals into madness." There's still A LOT of gaps still missing in the off-island story that need to be filled in, but so far, so good.

I don't know any show that's managed to keep itself fresh for five years, each season changing organically and answering questions after question while slyly having the answers bring up more questions.

I think Season Six will be the Season of War (as mentioned in this episode) when everything comes to a head and all those allusions in Season One will pay off - the black and white, the eyes, and Charlie's vision of Claire.


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

Fool Me Twice said:


> How good are O'Quinn and Emerson?





Fool Me Twice said:


> He won an Emmy for Locke a couple of years ago. :up:


this episode deserves an emmy for o'quinn



Unseen Llama said:


> Don't forget O'Quinn was the father in The Cutting Edge...


toe pick?



Test said:


> I thought the same thing about them first showing the wheelchair, but let it go as more symbolic than anything else. About that second part, maybe they goofed.


these guys don't goof... haven't yet...


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Ben said that Jack had booked a flight to Sydney, leaving tonight, with a return trip first thing in the morning. I think we're supposed to believe that this was the first of Jack's many flights across the Pacific in the month or two after meeting with Locke and before seeing the obituary. The only mystery is whether Locke had been dead that entire time and the obit/funeral were postponed for some reason (nobody found the body for a long time?) or whether the scene where Ben killed Locke was actually several weeks after the meeting between Locke and Jack in the hospital.


I don't think Locke was dead the entire time. I think we're to believe a few weeks went by before Locke's death...at least some significant period of time. Locke had to recover from the car crash. Yeah, his leg was still broke, but that was a major injury anyway. So he probably spend at least a few more days in the hospital...probably spent a good x amount of time feeling down on himself. Maybe he was waiting to see if anybody would show up to meet him at the hotel room...when he realized no one was coming, then he made the decision to off himself.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Not too surprising, considering he's been back for several years.
> 
> The Dude is obviously not a pet lover.  He wouldn't have forgotten Vincent.
> 
> ...


----------



## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

JYoung said:


> Apparently, they don't like hot linking.


Did it not show up for you?


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Where did Eloise get Locke's suicide letter from? Wasn't it her who gave it to Jack? We didn't see Ben find it, did we?


I thought it was Ben that gave the envelope to Jack. I could be remembering wrong though (my head is spinning).


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> So I'm Jewish and all, and might mess this up, but is Locke Jesus? You know, with the whole dying for his friends and being resurrected sort of thing. Not literally Jesus, but more like Aslan, in allegory.


A couple of hours ago, I had the strange thought that Richard might be Jesus but man, would that piss people off.



BrandonRe said:


> Did it not show up for you?


Nope.
Just got a banner for emotty.com


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

JYoung said:


> Nope.
> Just got a banner for emotty.com


Weird. Showing up for me. And not everything does here at work.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

BrandonRe said:


> Weird. Showing up for me. And not everything does here at work.


Let me guess. You work at emotty.com


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

BrandonRe said:


> Weird. Showing up for me. And not everything does here at work.


FYI didn't show up for me either.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BrandonRe said:


> Weird. Showing up for me. And not everything does here at work.


It's in your cache.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

TiVoDan said:


> In the previous season, it appeared as if there was several months between when John contacted Jack to tell him he needed to go back, and when Jack showed up at Johns funeral. But in this episode it appears that john death was almost immediately after. Am I the only one bothered by this?


Is it possible that it takes several months before Locke's/Bentham's body is found? He doesn't know anybody in town that would come visit him, so until the smell got overbearing to the neighbors, he might just languish there swinging in the air.

So Locke's death would have occurred soon after, but the funeral not for several months.

(I haven't thought how this would fit in the time frame of anything else.)


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's in your cache.


Thanks for letting me know. For the record, it was a rimshot smiley. And I removed the link.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

goblue97 said:


> I thought it was Ben that gave the envelope to Jack. I could be remembering wrong though (my head is spinning).


No, Eloise definitely gave it to Jack. It was when she called him into that office by himself, presumably so that Ben wouldn't be able to hear what they were talking about.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> No, Eloise definitely gave it to Jack. It was when she called him into that office by himself, presumably so that Ben wouldn't be able to hear what they were talking about.


This is proof that I need to go back and watch the last two episodes over again. There is just way too much going on right now and it seems like forever between episodes.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Bananfish said:


> Is it possible that it takes several months before Locke's/Bentham's body is found? He doesn't know anybody in town that would come visit him, so until the smell got overbearing to the neighbors, he might just languish there swinging in the air.
> 
> So Locke's death would have occurred soon after, but the funeral not for several months.
> 
> (I haven't thought how this would fit in the time frame of anything else.)


I don't think Locke would have had an open casket after a few weeks of decomposing...


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> Is it possible that it takes several months before Locke's/Bentham's body is found? He doesn't know anybody in town that would come visit him, so until the smell got overbearing to the neighbors, he might just languish there swinging in the air.
> 
> So Locke's death would have occurred soon after, but the funeral not for several months.
> 
> (I haven't thought how this would fit in the time frame of anything else.)


I considered that, but wouldn't his body have decomposed pretty severely if it had been alone in that room for more than a few days?


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

They did add some stubble on his face from the coffin shots at the end of last season to the this season.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BrandonRe said:


> Thanks for letting me know. For the record, it was a rimshot smiley. And I removed the link.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So the guy playing Caeser, his name really is Said.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0846548/


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

I think Ben and Widmare are the Vorlons and Shadows. They only appear to be on one side or another. In reality, they are only on their own side.

If Nadia met Said as soon as he was discovered, and he said that they had nine months together, and Ben arrived ten months later (time shifting after turning the donkey wheel) then there is simply no possible way Ben could have had anything to do with Nadia's murder. It must have been Widmore, or a third party.

If Widmore really wanted to get back to the island, why wasn't he on the freighter? It got there, so he could have gotten there. It was his, wasn't it? AND, if he knew Eloise, then she, using the lamp post, could have gotten him to the island? If he knew Eloise, why would Ben tell Widmore that he would never find the island?

The pendulum in the Lamp Post room wasn't a Foucault pendulum, so there is no reason for it to be extremely tall. It was divining the probable position of the island, not telling time based on the Earth's rotation.

For someone who has been given a "holy mission" of getting everyone back to the island, he was not being very convincing. "We have to go back or everone left behind will die." NO!" "Oh, okay. bye." He could have tried a little harder. He could have gone to everyone more than once.

I think this finally proves that Ben's story to Locke that "whoever turns the wheel can never come back to the island" was a lie.

In the opening scene I really though that they were looking throuogh Faraday's old lab in London. It just had THAT look.

Someone mentioned Nikki and Paulo. I too get that vibe from Caeser and Ilana.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Church AV Guy said:


> If Nadia met Said as soon as he was discovered, and he said that they had nine months together, and Ben arrived ten months later (time shifting after turning the donkey wheel) then there is simply no possible way Ben could have had anything to do with Nadia's murder. It must have been Widmore, or a third party.


I may not be remembering correctly, but I thought that Ben saw something about Sayid on TV when he first appeared in Tunisia in October 2005. I think his wife had been murdered and Ben tracked him down by going to Baghdad for the funeral procession. Then Ben showed him a picture of certain people that Ben claims were responsible for Nadia's murder.

Sayid has no way to know that Ben "skipped" everything between Jan. and Oct. 2005. Until the "flash" on Flight 316 and winding up in the 1970s, Sayid has had no exposure to the time-shifting properties of the Island. Because he now believes that Ben manipulated him into killing all those people, he probably believes that Ben is also responsible for Nadia's murder.


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

Ok, I did a quick scan of all the posts so far and no mention of this (I don't think I am smeeking, if I am please let me know!)
Widmore told Locke to dial 23 on the cell phone to call him! KEWL! :up::up:

Love seeing those numbers!
And RIGHT ON Locke for throwing the cell in the garbage! And I loved seeing "creepy fake lawyer dude" (as I called him after he visited Hurley) again off of "Fringe!"


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

A note about Ben's reaction to Locke's mentioning of Eloise Hawking. He also had a very curious reaction to Desmond's mentioning Daniel Farraday's mother. Very near the same reaction he had to Locke. But he moved on.

edit: It was in the episode "This Place Is Death".


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)




----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> It would be totally inconsistent if Sun didn't flash with the others. I can't see that happening. And Penny wouldn't be there without Desmond. Unless they were both there and Desmond did flash because he's "special." Otherwise, I don't think he should have as a non-815 guy. The only other women I can even think of from the real world are Eloise and the time traveling coma girl. If Eloise went with Lapidus, it would explain the coincidence of him being the pilot--she arranged it.


The mental image of Eloise and Frank paddling a kayak ... hmmm. My prediction is that Frank knew all along what was going to happen to Flight 316, and that funny scene outside the cockpit will turn out to be just for show. I'm not saying he's evil or anything like that - he knew a lot about the freighter too.



danplaysbass said:


> I don't think Locke would have had an open casket after a few weeks of decomposing...


It would explain the low attendance!



DevdogAZ said:


> I may not be remembering correctly, but I thought that Ben saw something about Sayid on TV when he first appeared in Tunisia in October 2005. I think his wife had been murdered and Ben tracked him down by going to Baghdad for the funeral procession. Then Ben showed him a picture of certain people that Ben claims were responsible for Nadia's murder.


Winner, winner, chicken dinner!



Church AV Guy said:


> I think this finally proves that Ben's story to Locke that "whoever turns the wheel can never come back to the island" was a lie.


To be fair, neither one have made it back to THE island just yet.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Regina said:


> Ok, I did a quick scan of all the posts so far and no mention of this (I don't think I am smeeking, if I am please let me know!)
> Widmore told Locke to dial 23 on the cell phone to call him! KEWL! :up::up:
> 
> Love seeing those numbers!


Weren't the numbers on the Tunisian license plate?


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

What was with the photo of Sayid on the roof being exactly the same as how Locke found him? I figure that Sayid is working on alot of houses and has been working on alot of roofs.. but seemed way too similar. 

And how did Walt know Locke was going by Jeremy Bentham?
When Walt went to go see Hurley he said Jeremy Bentham came to see him, but Locke made no mention of his alias to Walt.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

Cindy1230 said:


> What was with the photo of Sayid on the roof being exactly the same as how Locke found him? I figure that Sayid is working on alot of houses and has been working on alot of roofs.. but seemed way too similar.


Reminded me of 'Running Man', all the promos for the Chasers were from later points in the movie.

That was a good catch.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

How is it that Caesar could see the flash of light when the O6 disappeared? Up until this point, only those jumping could see the flash, right? But, he told Locke that he heard a "big noise" and saw a "bright light" just before Hurley disappeared. So, did Caesar and co. jump too? Or are the rules different for Caesar for some reason?


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

anyone else think that it was kind of odd the way they showed flight 316 as if it was just sitting on top of the trees all in one piece???


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Found a great screencap of Ceasar going through the Hydra notebook and it shows Daniel's notes!!!

It says very clearly: "Set machine to 2.342, oscillating at ....."

Here is a link to the page... couldn't figure out how to link to the actual picture.

Scroll down and you'll see they did a blow up of the notebook.

One of the maps definitely looks like Danielle's but haven't found a side by side comparison.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Paperboy2003 said:


> anyone else think that it was kind of odd the way they showed flight 316 as if it was just sitting on top of the trees all in one piece???


Since i'm on a screencap roll. Here is a link.

Maybe Lapidus actually landed the plane.


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## jami (Dec 18, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> While I don't remember ever seeing Michael Emerson (Ben) before,


This:



DreadPirateRob said:


> Emerson won an Emmy for playing a particularly chilling serial killer over the span of two seasons on _The Practice_, .


He was amazingly creepy in The Practice. The minute I saw him on Lost, I knew he wouldn't be a good guy.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Cindy1230 said:


> Since i'm on a screencap roll. Here is a link.
> 
> Maybe Lapidus actually landed the plane.


How? Straight down, vertically like a helicopter?? He might be good but not THAT good. He's no Sully!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Fool Me Twice said:


> How is it that Caesar could see the flash of light when the O6 disappeared? Up until this point, only those jumping could see the flash, right? But, he told Locke that he heard a "big noise" and saw a "bright light" just before Hurley disappeared. So, did Caesar and co. jump too? Or are the rules different for Caesar for some reason?


That's a _very_ good observation.. One thing to ponder: why are the 815 people any more special than the 316 people.. both just crashed on the island (unless we know the island really wanted them, but I'm betting any 'want' is based on backward time travel from the wheel)..

In other words, why shouldn't they jump?

..but they didn't. He saw the light and didn't jump..

Maybe a mistake (but I doubt it), or maybe he's just talking about a different light (lightning, light in the plane, etc), so the writers can escape.

Hmmmmm..


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> In other words, why shouldn't they jump?
> 
> ..but they didn't. He saw the light and didn't jump..
> 
> ...


I think they did jump, they jumped to whatever "present" the island is in and won't be in "sync" with the O6 (minus Locke). Their own perception is that they saw a white light, but they were on the plane. They wouldn't have known anything happened other than that.

Also, remember that the O6 are different than anyone else onboard the 315. Everyone was on the island (including Ben) when whatever happened when Desmond turned the key. Here's one way that Locke is different than the other O6: he was also there when the island and its inhabitants started leaping around in time. How this will affect him after going through a few of the shifts, breaking out of the loop, dying and returning, I have no idea.

The O6 are on the island in the 70s, which I think happened because they had already been exposed to the effects of the hatch key/implosion, while the Ajira people are in some other as yet undetermined time (whatever time the survivors who remained on the island are in). Also, note that Lapidus is with the 315 survivors, not the O6. He wasn't there for the hatch implosion.

Of course this could all be bunk. Ben was on the island for the implosion, yet is there with the 315 survivors. We also don't have an account for Sayid or Sun.

Greg


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gchance said:


> I think they did jump, they jumped to whatever "present" the island is in and won't be in "sync" with the O6 (minus Locke). Their own perception is that they saw a white light, but they were on the plane. They wouldn't have known anything happened other than that.
> 
> Also, remember that the O6 are different than anyone else onboard the 315. Everyone was on the island (including Ben) when whatever happened when Desmond turned the key. Here's one way that Locke is different than the other O6: he was also there when the island and its inhabitants started leaping around in time. How this will affect him after going through a few of the shifts, breaking out of the loop, dying and returning, I have no idea.
> 
> ...


What makes you think the survivors who remained on the Island (I'm assuming you mean Rose, Bernard, etc.) are not in the same time period as Sawyer, Juliet, Faraday, etc.? I can't see any reason why they wouldn't be.

And considering that Jin seems to have been in the 70s long enough to infiltrate and become part of Dharma, can we assume that Locke's turning of the wheel stabilized the flashes and all of the 815 people are now in the 70s? If they've been there long enough, does that mean Juliet and Sawyer have also become part of Dharma?


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Over at DarkUFO there is a list of errors in this episode, including Sayid working on the same house in the photo as when Locke visits him. Some of them seem like like minor things or easter eggs; but some seem to be pretty glaring errors. I can't imagine that the writers would have missed this stuff, so I'm going to assume there is something we don't know yet that will explain this stuff;


Spoiler



I would particularly like an explanation to the Jack/Locke conversation:





Spoiler



* Widmore's surveillance photo of Sayid shows Sayid working on the exact same house in the exact same spot he is still working on when Locke comes to see him. Considering the time it takes Locke to travel from Tunisia to Santo Domingo, Sayid should have at least made some progress.

* When Abaddon is driving Locke to the airport, the passing traffic includes the truck that rescued Locke from the desert.

* In "There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 & 3" Walt tells Hurley that he was visited by Jeremy Bentham. However, when Locke meets Walt in New York City, he never mentions that he is travelling under the name Jeremy Bentham. Unless there was another off-Island meeting between Walt and Locke, this is a continuity error. Jack and Kate also refer to Bentham, despite the fact that we never see Locke introduce himself this way, nor would he need to.

* When Locke and Walt meet in New York City, they are standing on the corner of "W 67th St." and "8th Ave" but these streets do not intersect. Above W59th street, all avenues are renamed and are no longer referred to by their numbers. The 8th Ave street sign should have read "Central Park West", and it borders entirely on Central Park along the south east side with no buildings. 9th Ave is "Columbus Avenue". Also, the subway sign at least in part reads "Columbus" - the closest subway is the Lincoln Center subway on Broadway which is half a block away from W67th and Columbus (9th Ave) - the Columbus Circle subway is 8 blocks south on "W 59th St." aka "Central Park West".

* In "There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 & 3", Jack stated that Locke had a) told him Ben was off the island, b) that "some very bad things happened" after Jack left the island, c) that those bad things were Jack's fault because he left, d) that the only way he could protect Kate and Aaron was by returning to the island, and e) that if Jack and the rest of the Oceanic Six didn't return to the island, the people they left behind would die. Locke said none of those things. Unless there was another off-island meeting between Jack and Locke, this is a continuity error.

* Locke doesn't recognize Charles Widmore at the beginning of the episode, but in The Other Woman, Ben showed Locke a video of a modern Charles Widmore.

* When Walt asks Locke why he came to see him, shot changes from Locke's face, to Walt and then back to Locke's face before he responds. When camera changes to Walt, we can clearly see Locke turn his head. But when camera goes back to Locke's face, he is still facing exactly in same direction as he was before he turned head.

* As Hurley is being led away by the two orderlies at Santa Rosa, they both instantly switch places on either side of him between shots.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> How? Straight down, vertically like a helicopter?? He might be good but not THAT good. He's no Sully!


Considering that the nose appears to be under foliage, I'm going to guess that Frank managed to get it leveled off just in time.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Over at DarkUFO there is a list of errors in this episode, including Sayid working on the same house in the photo as when Locke visits him. Some of them seem like like minor things or easter eggs; but some seem to be pretty glaring errors. I can't imagine that the writers would have missed this stuff, so I'm going to assume there is something we don't know yet that will explain this stuff;
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


The NYC street signs is interesting. You'd think someone on the cast or crew would have enough knowledge of NYC to figure that out. Or you'd think they would have at least looked at a map to make sure the place they're trying to depict actually exists. Google StreetView would be able to tell you exactly what the street signs in that location actually say without ever leaving your desk.

As for the stuff about conversations between Locke and others, we have no reason to believe that this episode showed us the entire conversations. I'm sure there would be plenty of social stuff in those conversations that didn't need to be shown. In addition, Jack already told us (as pointed out) much of what Locke said when he visited, so there's no reason to show it again. We already know.

Some of those others are simply continuity things that are so minor they're not really even worth noticing.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> As for the stuff about conversations between Locke and others, we have no reason to believe that this episode showed us the entire conversations. I'm sure there would be plenty of social stuff in those conversations that didn't need to be shown. In addition, Jack already told us (as pointed out) much of what Locke said when he visited, so there's no reason to show it again. We already know.


I think the problem is that we are unsure from this episode how long it was after Locke's car accident that he decided to off himself. It looked a lot like it was very soon after, which would have made these other conversations impossible.

The thing about Walt is a good point. Did Locke change his mind after the conversation he had with Walt the first time, and later go back and beg him to come back to the island? If so, what was the point of showing the conversation they showed?

As a general question, WTF is Kate's problem? With Locke, with Jack, what's her deal?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> I think the problem is that we are unsure from this episode how long it was after Locke's car accident that he decided to off himself. It looked a lot like it was very soon after, which would have made these other conversations impossible.
> 
> The thing about Walt is a good point. Did Locke change his mind after the conversation he had with Walt the first time, and later go back and beg him to come back to the island? If so, what was the point of showing the conversation they showed?
> 
> As a general question, WTF is Kate's problem? With Locke, with Jack, what's her deal?


My point was that I don't think there were multiple conversations between Locke and Jack/Walt. I simply think that the writers decided that there was no need to show us the entirety of those conversations because we'd already been given clues as to their contents. Therefore, in this episode they simply showed us what we needed to see.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> My point was that I don't think there were multiple conversations between Locke and Jack/Walt. I simply think that the writers decided that there was no need to show us the entirety of those conversations because we'd already been given clues as to their contents. Therefore, in this episode they simply showed us what we needed to see.


We saw clear beginnings and ends to the conversations Locke had with Sayid, Jack, Hurley and Walt (though not with Kate). Are you saying there were parts in the middle that were "edited out"? Do they do that? I can see them doing a scene where we miss the beginning or the end of a conversation. But showing us the beginning and the end and cutting out pieces in the middle, without a cut, a commercial break, or an interspersed scene? I don't think they do that.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> What makes you think the survivors who remained on the Island (I'm assuming you mean Rose, Bernard, etc.) are not in the same time period as Sawyer, Juliet, Faraday, etc.? I can't see any reason why they wouldn't be.
> 
> And considering that Jin seems to have been in the 70s long enough to infiltrate and become part of Dharma, can we assume that Locke's turning of the wheel stabilized the flashes and all of the 815 people are now in the 70s? If they've been there long enough, does that mean Juliet and Sawyer have also become part of Dharma?


You're right about the other survivors being in the same time. Yes, they would be where Jin is. 

Greg


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Loved the fact that they made John Locke have to be in a wheelchair again during his return to 'real life'.


It reminded me of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. (Obligatory caveats: This is a complimentary comparison, and I'm not suggesting it's an allusion, theft, or tribute.)


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Hey.. wait a minute.. I just realized a whole personal angle that Locke must have had when he went to see Walt..

Shouldn't Locke be thinking "Hey, ya know, when Ben shot me and left me for dead, Taller Ghost Walt showed up and told me I had work to do.. I wonder if he remembers any of that?? What's he gonna say to me?"..

Then he talks to Walt, who seems to have no knowledge of any of that - at least he doesn't say "hey.. good being in touch with you via that remote presence thing I seem to do.. How's the gunshot wound? How's Shannon?".

Why doesn't Walt remember any of that stuff? Has he not experienced it yet? Are they from his dreams? Did Locke just get disappointed (or maybe the opposite.. satisfied) that Walt didn't remember any of it, and he just left him alone?

If there's anyone from the Oceanic flight that we knew still needed to do things we've seen, it'd have been Walt (unless we haven't been watching Walt in those scenes).


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

in general, walt is a storyline that's waiting to be completed...

A: the significance of walt and his weird powers (killing birds and such)
B: why is he the one all the survivors were seeing in apparitions the first 2 seasons
C: i forget exactly, but on the island, he always seemed special... i don't remember if it's locke thought he was special, or if walt sensed something strange in locke...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Why doesn't Walt remember any of that stuff?


It never occurred to me that that was actually Walt. I have always assumed that it's the Island Spirit that keeps appearing to various people in various guises (lately, mostly, Christian).


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It never occurred to me that that was actually Walt. I have always assumed that it's the Island Spirit that keeps appearing to various people in various guises (lately, mostly, Christian).


So if that's the case (which we thought about Yemi, at least), then this is at least a case where a living person is being impersonated.. (maybe Juliette's shrink was too, if that woman is alive)


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It never occurred to me that that was actually Walt. I have always assumed that it's the Island Spirit that keeps appearing to various people in various guises (lately, mostly, Christian).


..and, I was really looking at it from Locke's point of view.. What did LOCKE expect when he saw Walt? We might have guesses as to people being impersonated by some entity, but Locke hasn't seen all that we've seen..


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> ..and, I was really looking at it from Locke's point of view.. What did LOCKE expect when he saw Walt? We might have guesses as to people being impersonated by some entity, but Locke hasn't seen all that we've seen..


Locke has seen dead people. He saw Boone and Christian.

Though, this is different because Walt is not dead.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> The NYC street signs is interesting. You'd think someone on the cast or crew would have enough knowledge of NYC to figure that out. Or you'd think they would have at least looked at a map to make sure the place they're trying to depict actually exists. Google StreetView would be able to tell you exactly what the street signs in that location actually say without ever leaving your desk.
> 
> As for the stuff about conversations between Locke and others, we have no reason to believe that this episode showed us the entire conversations. I'm sure there would be plenty of social stuff in those conversations that didn't need to be shown. In addition, Jack already told us (as pointed out) much of what Locke said when he visited, so there's no reason to show it again. We already know.
> 
> Some of those others are simply continuity things that are so minor they're not really even worth noticing.


I don't think it's that interesting. It's not a documentary. Who cares if the details are geographically accurate. I don't get people who point out real life inconsistencies in a work of FICTION.


----------



## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

aindik said:


> Locke has seen dead people. He saw Boone and Christian.
> 
> Though, this is different because Walt is not dead.


But maybe dead to the island...


----------



## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I don't think it's that interesting. It's not a documentary. Who cares if the details are geographically accurate. I don't get people who point out real life inconsistencies in a work of FICTION.


But, if they don't represent the known intersections right, how can we trust that they are showing us the real coordinates of the island???
They could just be making it all up!!!

I'm really frustrated now! That's it, I'm not watching LOST again... until next Wednesday.


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It never occurred to me that that was actually Walt. I have always assumed that it's the Island Spirit that keeps appearing to various people in various guises (lately, mostly, Christian).


I always thought that was the smoke monster / security system taking the form of someone else. I guess it could be like in Ghost Busters...If John had been close with the Stay Puft marshmallow man, perhaps he would've appeared instead of Walt


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I don't think it's that interesting. It's not a documentary. Who cares if the details are geographically accurate. I don't get people who point out real life inconsistencies in a work of FICTION.


I agree that it's kind of pointless to point it out. But if they're going to the trouble to portray a real city (NYC) and put up street signs and other identifying information that are clearly visible on film, I find it interesting that they'd make that kind of a goof to portray a location that doesn't exist. Just seems like poor research that could have been done in 5 minutes online.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I agree that it's kind of pointless to point it out. But if they're going to the trouble to portray a real city (NYC) and put up street signs and other identifying information that are clearly visible on film, I find it interesting that they'd make that kind of a goof to portray a location that doesn't exist. Just seems like poor research that could have been done in 5 minutes online.


Locations in television are often fake.
There used to be a liability issue if a real location was cited which is why Adam 12 was always sent to addresses that didn't exist in real life.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> My point was that I don't think there were multiple conversations between Locke and Jack/Walt. I simply think that the writers decided that there was no need to show us the entirety of those conversations because we'd already been given clues as to their contents. Therefore, in this episode they simply showed us what we needed to see.


Locke told Sayid that he was staying under the name of Jeremy Bentham. He would've needed to tell them that if he thought there was any chance they might try to contact him. I would assume that he stuck that in somewhere in all his conversations, even though it didnt' seem likely they were going to change their minds. No reason to show it.



Paperboy2003 said:


> I always thought that was the smoke monster / security system taking the form of someone else.


Some of the appearances like Demi I thought were the smoke monster, but somehow I always thought Walt was really warning them through telepathy or something. I guess because I thought Walt understood more of what was really going on. I wonder if Walt's role was intended to be different, but then they changed their minds when he grew so much. If I were Locke, I would've asked some questions. 

No one has mentioned the picture Hurley was drawing (I don't think). It looked like a desert scene to me--camels and sand. Maybe he dreamed about Locke being in Tunisia.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I agree that it's kind of pointless to point it out. But if they're going to the trouble to portray a real city (NYC) and put up street signs and other identifying information that are clearly visible on film, I find it interesting that they'd make that kind of a goof to portray a location that doesn't exist. Just seems like poor research that could have been done in 5 minutes online.


Well, I'm going to Tunisia in 2 months. I'll check if that camera is there


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

jami said:


> This:
> 
> He was amazingly creepy in The Practice. The minute I saw him on Lost, I knew he wouldn't be a good guy.


He was very creepy in Law & Order SVU. He played a pedophile.


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> How is it that Caesar could see the flash of light when the O6 disappeared? Up until this point, only those jumping could see the flash, right?


Not necessarily.  This is the first time we have heard from somebody who stayed behind. For all we know, everybody who is left behind/doesn't jump sees the flash of light.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

verdugan said:


> Not necessarily. This is the first time we have heard from somebody who stayed behind. For all we know, everybody who is left behind/doesn't jump sees the flash of light.


We heard from Danielle, who watched Jin jump. I don't remember what she said about it exactly, but I think she said he just disappeared.

When Locke was disappearing when he was with Richard, I think he was the only one flinching when the flash started.

Also, Sawyer jumped in the middle of Claire giving birth. We didn't see them afterwards, but I didn't get the impression that they would have asked each other WTF that was after it happened. I don't think they would have noticed it.

Somewhat of a spoiler from the most recent podcast. Damon referred to the Ajira airline people (Caesar and Ilana, I assume) as


Spoiler



the Ajira people, who I don't necessarily trust.



Make of that what you will.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

aindik said:


> When Locke was disappearing when he was with Richard, I think he was the only one flinching when the flash started.


In January 2005, maybe, but in 1950 I don't think Richard saw anything.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It never occurred to me that that was actually Walt. I have always assumed that it's the Island Spirit that keeps appearing to various people in various guises (lately, mostly, Christian).


Third quote of mine from this same post of yours.. I remember something (maybe it was outside the show, like on the hanso foundation site or something, or maybe in the initial orientation video on the show in the swan hatch) where they mentioned remote presence or remote viewing.

And I explicitly remember Ms. Clue asking Michael if Walt ever appeared somewhere he wasn't supposed to be..


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> In January 2005, maybe, but in 1950 I don't think Richard saw anything.


My post was ambiguous. By "he" I meant Locke. I don't think Richard saw anything when Locke jumped. "He" (Locke) was the only one who flinched.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

verdugan said:


> He was very creepy in Law & Order SVU. He played a pedophile.


Poor guy--Ben is a killer and a liar, but he's probably the most likeable character he's ever played.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Magister said:


> This show is rocking right now. This will be a series that people will talk about for years to come.


You think we'll have Lost rewatching threads in our future like Babylon 5?


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Some of the appearances like Demi I thought were the smoke monster, but somehow I always thought Walt was really warning them through telepathy or something.


Demi Moore IS a smoke monster. Ask Ashton Kucher.



> Somewhat of a spoiler from the most recent podcast. Damon referred to the Ajira airline people (Caesar and Ilana, I assume) as
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


He also confirmed the entire series is just a Vincent flashback, didn't he?

Greg


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gchance said:


> He also confirmed the entire series is just a Vincent flashback, didn't he?
> 
> Greg


SPOILER TAGS, DUDE!!!!


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> SPOILER TAGS, DUDE!!!!


D'oh! Sorry. I guess this wouldn't be a good time to bring up



Spoiler



THE ZOMBIE SEASON?



Greg


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

gchance said:


> He also confirmed the entire series is just a Vincent flashback, didn't he?
> 
> Greg


I thought the entire series is the imagination of an autistic child


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> I thought the entire series is the imagination of an autistic child


Nah, Vincent wakes up next to Bob Newhart.

Greg


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

gchance said:


> Nah, Vincent wakes up next to Bob Newhart.
> 
> Greg


No, no, no./.. They'll all go their separate ways and a new series will start called AfterLOST that follows Vincent and Hurley.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

No, you're all wrong.

Kate, Jack, Sawyer and Sayid all get sentenced to a year in jail after laughing at Hurley instead of helping him when Widmore tries to rob him. Interestingly, this all happens in a small town where their plane has to make an emergency landing.

In a madcap courtroom scene, Des, Pen, Juliette, Walt, Ben, Mr. & Mrs. Reyes, the Paiks, Eloise Hawking, Daniel Farady, Rose, Bernard, and Aaron all testify for the prosecution. The defense lawyer is played by Billy Dee Williams.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

mqpickles, would that small town be near Wichita by any chance? You know, in area code 316?


----------



## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

Fleegle said:


> No, no, no./.. They'll all go their separate ways and a new series will start called AfterLOST that follows Vincent and Hurley.


Puh-leez. The real ending has Libby waking up, seeing Anna Lucia in the shower and saying, "I just had the strangest dream."


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Libby doesn't sound like the only one having a dream ...


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

aindik said:


> We heard from Danielle, who watched Jin jump. I don't remember what she said about it exactly, but I think she said he just disappeared.
> 
> When Locke was disappearing when he was with Richard, I think he was the only one flinching when the flash started.
> 
> ...


If Caesar is telling the truth - and there's not much reason for him to lie - then he's only the 2nd non-O6 person to see the time flashes. The other one was Desmond, when Faraday visited him at the Swan. Makes one wonder about that. I also wonder if Ilana and Caesar told the coach passengers about the Magic Disappearing First Class People.

So, is it fate or coincidence that on an island of Latin-speaking Others a Caesar has landed?


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Delta13 said:


> mqpickles, would that small town be near Wichita by any chance? You know, in area code 316?


Hey, could be!

Okay, so did you just happen to know the Wichita area code, or did you look up 316 because of Lost?


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I just rewatched the scene where Illana talks to Locke on the beach. When she tells him that the pilot and a woman took one of the boats during the middle of the night Locke asks "The pilot who brought you here?" She says "That's right." What I didn't notice the first time was that she nearly starts to cry at that point. I wonder what that's all about?


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

rondotcom said:


> Puh-leez. The real ending has Libby waking up, seeing Anna Lucia in the shower and saying, "I just had the strangest dream."


*snort* I love it.. thanks for making my morning!

Diane


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> I missed the subtle explanation.
> 
> That was a great episode. So for now, Ben is evil again and Widmore is good?
> Or maybe just less evil.


I am the camp that Ben still may not be evil. Maybe for some cosmic reason Locke really did have to die. Of course, if that were the case, Ben would have let John kill himself.



Turtleboy said:


> I don't think Locke and the crash is on the right island yet. They are on the "other" island that the others used, where the cages were.


You know, the way John was looking out at the other landmass....you could be right on.

The whole car crash scene was very eerie to me.....


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jlb said:


> I am the camp that Ben still may not be evil. Maybe for some cosmic reason Locke really did have to die. Of course, if that were the case, Ben would have let John kill himself.


He may turn out being the good guy he claims, you never know with this show, but (1) he was instrumental in mass murdering an entire community on the island, (2) he didn't care that he caused the destruction of a freighter full of people, (3) and he obviously didn't care what happened to everyone else on 316.

Killing Locke is not the only bad thing Ben has done.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

jlb said:


> You know, the way John was looking out at the other landmass....you could be right on.


I think that's pretty confirmed that they are on the other island because the Hydra logo was all around the office.

I'm so surprised no one has responded to my post about the screen cap of Daniel's notes.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jlb said:


> You know, the way John was looking out at the other landmass....you could be right on.


More from the podcast.



Spoiler



I don't think this is supposed to be a mystery. Damon said they were "obviously on Hydra island."


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I think jlb is still on page one.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Cindy1230 said:


> I'm so surprised no one has responded to my post about the screen cap of Daniel's notes.


OK, well, did you notice that Rouseau's maps were also there? And, it appears that Daniels circle-and-line diagram may be related to the blast-door-map.

So I wonder, does Daniel know Radzinsky? Do his notes inspire the blast door map or vice-versa? Or maybe they're unrelated. Also, if Daniel's notes are in a folder at the Hydra, it appears they've been there since Dharma was active. Then, when Daniel arrives on the island in 2004 with his notebook, that means that there are two identical copies of his notes on the island(s). SO if Daniel had gone to the Hydra in 2004, and found his notes, could he have put the Hydra copy side-by-side with his copy from his backpack? Could he change his copy and effect the Hydra copy?


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Cindy1230 said:


> I'm so surprised no one has responded to my post about the screen cap of Daniel's notes.


This is me responding to your post.











I kid! Yes. It does look like Daniel's notes and Rousseau's map. Both of those things jumped out at me while watching the first time through. Very interesting, but I have no idea what it means


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

steve614 said:


> You think we'll have Lost rewatching threads in our future like Babylon 5?


We already have. You just haven't remembered yet.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Cindy1230 said:


> Found a great screencap of Ceasar going through the Hydra notebook and it shows Daniel's notes!!!
> 
> It says very clearly: "Set machine to 2.342, oscillating at ....."
> 
> ...





Cindy1230 said:


> Since i'm on a screencap roll. Here is a link.
> 
> Maybe Lapidus actually landed the plane.


I knew there was something from this thread I wanted to go back and look at, but the whole Vincent thing distracted me.  What's interesting is that Daniel's notes appear here to be on regular paper, not the actual note paper from his notebook. If that's true, then they don't exist in 2 places at once - just the words do. And are they Daniel's words? Hmm.

That one folded map may be Danielle's, but the main map Caesar looks at has a location of the Tempest Station on it. It says "Plant a kilometer north of coast, and couple hundred meters ..." Further to the right and down there are the letters C and H, and the words written there include "satellite location" but it's hard to read the rest. I like the little fisherman out at sea the best, though.

Frank may have landed the plane, but it didn't just drop right there. The right wing appears mostly tore away, and there is jungle debris all along the top of the fuselage. It appears to have somehow done a regular landing, though why it's still in one piece is a complete mystery. If no one died and the only badly hurt folks were in the room they showed Locke, then Frank is a freaking Sully.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Delta13 said:


> What's interesting is that Daniel's notes appear here to be on regular paper, not the actual note paper from his notebook. If that's true, then they don't exist in 2 places at once - just the words do. And are they Daniel's words? Hmm.


Upon further review, it appears to be a photo-copy...


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I think jlb is still on page one.


yes I was ..... now that you mention it......

BTW, don't know if anyone in here watches NCIS but the recent episode where they go looking for this woman in a cabin in Arizona in the middle of nowhere.....the woman was played by the same woman who plays Rousseau. And there was a scene where she pulls a rifle on the NCIS guys....it was just like the first time we see her on the Island and she has the rifle.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Cindy1230 said:


> I think that's pretty confirmed that they are on the other island because the Hydra logo was all around the office.


I'm also beginning to have the feeling that the 2 islands are linked, so when they "moved the island" both the big and hydra islands move.
That resolves a lot of the questions and inconsistencies.

Diane


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Here's an interesting point we missed that I just saw while rewatching..

Locke and Matthew are across the street from Walt.
Matthew asks "So that's Michael Dawson's son, huh?"
Locke says yeah.
Matthew says "Boy's gotten big."

Did they just hint that Matthew saw Michael before? That he saw Walt as a kid?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

(plus, he then leaves to give them some privacy, which he didn't exactly do at Hurley's institution.. Maybe he doesn't want Walt to recognize him?)


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Locke's line "The boy's been through enough" and his decision to leave Walt alone seems SO damned familiar.. Was it from Lost? Maybe Star Wars? Tired, can't think.


----------



## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> I'm also beginning to have the feeling that the 2 islands are linked, so when they "moved the island" both the big and hydra islands move.
> That resolves a lot of the questions and inconsistencies.
> 
> Diane


Both islands moved together. In the Season 4 Finale when the island disappears, Jack tells Lapidas to look for the other island. Lapidas responds that they are both gone.


----------



## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> The NYC street signs is interesting. You'd think someone on the cast or crew would have enough knowledge of NYC to figure that out. Or you'd think they would have at least looked at a map to make sure the place they're trying to depict actually exists. Google StreetView would be able to tell you exactly what the street signs in that location actually say without ever leaving your desk.


Let's say you get the correct street signs. Then someone who is familiar with 12th and Q (just to throw an address out) will say "I work and 12th and Q and it looks nothing like that". Without filming everything on location, there's no way to really get it exactly right.

Considering they film everything on Oahu I think they do a damn good job of portraying all the other parts of the world. One fun rewatch game is to notice the buses. Korea, New York, LA etc. all have the same bus line. (Including the one that mows down Juliette's ex)


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## lodica1967 (Aug 5, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Locke's line "The boy's been through enough" and his decision to leave Walt alone seems SO damned familiar.. Was it from Lost? Maybe Star Wars? Tired, can't think.


Field of Dreams?

Reminded me of when Ray told the author (James Earl Jones?) that the voice said, "leave the man alone, he's been through enough."


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

I just have to say I love this show.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

Tonight I finally got around to watching last week's Lost episode and then spent an hour reading through this thread. Then I watched last weeks 24 and read that thread. What a difference. I enjoy both shows, buy my how they are so different in quality.

The Lost Thread consists of constant interpretations, theories and conclusions. The 24 Thread concentrates on the actors/actresses and general discussion. I think it just shows how thin and shallow the plots are on 24 anymore, and how convoluted and twisted the Lost plots are.

Like I said, I enjoy both Series and like reading the comments on both threads, but they are really different.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> (plus, he then leaves to give them some privacy, which he didn't exactly do at Hurley's institution.. Maybe he doesn't want Walt to recognize him?)


I've seen crackpot speculation that Abadon is future Walt who came back in time, but that makes no sense.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I've seen crackpot speculation that Abadon is future Walt who came back in time, but that makes no sense.


My theory is that back in the days when we didn't have much evidence to go by, people would come up with wild-ass theories because, well, there wasn't much evidence to contradict them. And they got so much into the habit of coming up with wild-ass theories that now, even though there's a growing amount of evidence in the show to constrict reasonable theories, they're still coming up with the wild-ass ones--and then trying to explain away or ignore the evidence.

Typical conspiracy-theory thinking--and I guess it should come as no surprise that Lost would include conspiracy-theory buffs in its audience!


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> I've seen crackpot speculation that Abadon is future Walt who came back in time, but that makes no sense.


No... Agent Broyles of Homeland Security is Future Walt come back in time.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

42 minutes left

See you in the next life..


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

I was trying to figure out why hearing Locke say Eloise's name made Ben Kill him and it occurred to me that this was the second time Ben had tried to kill Locke. The first time was when he shot him on the island and left him for dead amid the Dharma corpses. The reason he shot him the first time was because he thought Locke had communicated with Jacob in the cabin. So when Locke said Eloise Hawking, Ben might have thought he got that information from Jacob (it was really Christian). For some reason, it is unacceptable in Ben's mind for Locke to communicate with Jacob/Christian. Thoughts?


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

I know this is late, but I just got around to listening to last week's Podcast with Damon & Carlton and Damon (I think it was him) made an off-handed comment but I don't know if it was just a mistake or a slip of the tongue that revealed another secret:

(Potential spoiler from Podcast)



Spoiler



He said that Richard Alpert was standing next John when John turned the wheel. We know that Christian Shepard was there. Are they one and the same?


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Christian was with Locke when he turned the wheel. He was not with Ben when he did it. I wonder if that means something? Ben jumpped ten months, but Locke jumpped three years, and if you take where he had started from, before the Dharma Initiative was even on the island, he jumpped a lot further. I think we need a chart.

It was pretty clear to me after a second watching that we were only shown small parts of the total conversations that Locke was having with the O6. 

Technically, Walt was not a part of the O6, so did he really need to return?


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> Christian was with Locke when he turned the wheel. He was not with Ben when he did it. I wonder if that means something? Ben jumpped ten months, but Locke jumpped three years, and if you take where he had started from, before the Dharma Initiative was even on the island, he jumpped a lot further. I think we need a chart.
> 
> It was pretty clear to me after a second watching that we were only shown small parts of the total conversations that Locke was having with the O6.
> 
> Technically, Walt was not a part of the O6, so did he really need to return?


"All of your friends who left the island" were the people who were supposed to return. That's not just the O6.


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## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

Delta13 said:


> Yeah, John looked like he was really getting strangled. A little tough to watch, no doubt. For a guy who always has a plan, Ben has a bit of an impulse control problem, no? I agree with Rob, he wasn't just acting with Locke - when he heard her name, he snapped.
> 
> Jeff, I doubt Ben tries to pull one on Eloise by claiming he's Locke. She quite clearly knows him, and knows him as a liar. But I repeat myself.


The one thing I've always thought about Ben is that he always knows exactly what he's doing and plans everything out, even if the plans don't always work out, he always seems to quickly think of another one. Of all the things I'd call Ben, impulsive isn't one of them.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BriGuy20 said:


> Of all the things I'd call Ben, impulsive isn't one of them.


But like most tightly-wound control freaks, when he DOES lose control it tends to be big-time. And I think that's exactly what happened when John said Eloise's name.


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## barbeedoll (Sep 26, 2005)

gchance said:


> Nah, Vincent wakes up next to Bob Newhart.
> 
> Greg


Now THAT's funny.

Barbeedoll


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

BriGuy20 said:


> The one thing I've always thought about Ben is that he always knows exactly what he's doing and plans everything out, even if the plans don't always work out, he always seems to quickly think of another one. Of all the things I'd call Ben, impulsive isn't one of them.


 Ben would disagree with you:

LOCKE: Why?

BEN: "Why" what?

LOCKE: Why did you kill him when you knew it would destroy the boat?

BEN: Well, John, I really wasn't thinking straight. Sometimes... good command decisions get compromised by bad emotional responses.

[Loud clatter]

BEN: I'm sure you're gonna do a much better job of separating the two than I ever did.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Well, to be fair, his daughter had just been murdered right before his eyes by that guy only hours before. In that instance, he wanted revenge and very well might not care about the consequences. So if I could mod what BriGuy20 said:


> The one thing I've always thought about Ben is that he _nearly_ always almost knows exactly what he's doing and plans everything out. Even if the plans don't always work out, he _usually_ thinks of another one. Of all the _things_ about Ben, he is _rarely_ impulsive.


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## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

Delta13 said:


> Ben would disagree with you:
> 
> LOCKE: Why?
> 
> ...


And we know in THIS case, Ben is being completely honest.


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