# Done with TiVo



## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Preface: I've had a TiVos since 2001. I had a couple of original TiVo. I had two or three DirecTiVos. I had a TiVo HD. And perhaps another couple in there over the years. The point is, I'm a long time and loyal TiVo customer. 

The other day my HD locked at the startup screen. Almost certainly a bad hard drive, or perhaps a bad power supply. I considered fixing it, then considered my time constraints, and decided to buy a Roamio. I figured I get the latest version and can fix my HD when I have more time. 

The Roamio got here with no issue. I was first a little surprised when I went to activate it and I had a wait a few hours. I thought previous TiVo activations were immediate. But perhaps not. I wasn't in a hurry to watch TV, I just prefer to have things done. No worries. 

A few hours later the TiVo was working just fine. I checked online and it said I activation was still pending. Again, no worries. I went to de-activate my old TiVO. I could not find a way to do so. I check the online help, which explains very clearly how to do so. But no, I could find it. Hmmmm....

The next day I started an online chat with TiVo. (Note that the chat instructions clearly state that you can't cancel your account via chat.) The nice person on chat would not help me. When I asked why, he told me that he can't de-activate via chat. He then told me is states this clearly. I told him it does not, and that de-activation is not the same as cancelling. He politely told me he could not help me and that I needed to call. 

Now I'm annoyed. Don't tell me the chat instructions say what they don't say. I'm neither blind nor hard of reading. So I call and get a very nice woman to help me. She starting to go down her "Oh no... I'm sorry to hear you're de-activating" speech when I cut her off and told her my HD was dead. 

She said "ok" and proceeded to help me. She informed me that I would be billed for the HD through the end of the month. I was calling on the 2nd of the month. She told me that's their policy. Hmmmm... 

So I explained to her that I've had TiVos for 13 years. I explained that as soon as I noticed my HD was dead I immediately bought and activated a new TiVo. I explained that I had no idea when my HD died, as I haven't used it in about 2 months. It could have been dead for most of this time. No matter - I'm not asking for anything back. The unit is dead. I have a new one that's already activated. 

She was completely unemphatic. She was polite, but really didn't care. When I told her this was likely going to result in me returning my Roamio, she seemed equally unconcerned. 

What the heck is going in with TiVO. It's not the money that's the issue for me. It could be $2 or it could be $50. What kind of idiotic company thinks it's reasonable to charge a customer for service they can't possibly use? If I hadn't activated a new TiVo I could almost, maybe, kinda see their point. And I told her this. 

The Roamio looks like a very nice device. I've enjoyed every TiVo I've ever had. I just don't think this is a company I want to do business with. I'll be exercising my 30-day return policy on the service and will return my device. 

MythTV or Windows Media Center won't be a TiVO, but it'll be good enough.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

I admit, my sympathy is entirely with the TiVo reps here, even just hearing one side of the story. You clearly want TiVo not to follow their policies, which are publicly stated in their user agreement with you - you must call to cancel (you deactivate hardware, you cancel service), you pay for the upcoming month, and you get no refunds (except for the initial 30 day period). 

Or do you feel that you don't have to obey the agreement - it's only TiVo that must obey?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> I admit, my sympathy is entirely with the TiVo reps here, even just hearing one side of the story. You clearly want TiVo not to follow their policies, which are publicly stated in their user agreement with you - you must call to cancel (you deactivate hardware, you cancel service), you pay for the upcoming month, and you get no refunds (except for the initial 30 day period).
> 
> Or do you feel that you don't have to obey the agreement - it's only TiVo that must obey?


Obey? Really? I made no agreement with TiVo that I would call them to cancel. And I did not cancel. I deactivated a dead device.

My issue has nothing to do with TiVos policy. My issue has everything to do with their business model. I'm sure many, like you, are fine with it. I'm voting with my wallet.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Really? It's in the user agreement that you agreed to when you run guided setup. You do admit that you agreed to the policy, don't you?



> Term and Termination
> 
> This agreement applies from the date when you accept it and continues until terminated by either of us. We may immediately suspend your account and/or terminate this agreement for your breach of this agreement. All sections of this agreement that by their nature should continue (such as the "Dispute Resolution" section) will survive termination.
> 
> You may cancel your account or a subscription to the TiVo service by calling customer service at 1-877-367-8486. Cancellation will not entitle you to any refund (including of any subscription fees), and may be subject to an early termination fee in some cases (see the "Early Termination Fee" section for more details).


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Yet another "loyal customer" that only embraces the stereotype that comes with people who call themselves "loyal customers".

Unless there are some other major mitigating factors involved here, that were not shared, I say I'm unsympathetic. I don't see any loyalty, just a sense of entitlement.

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Is this a joke or is the OP just trolling?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Is this a joke or is the OP just trolling?


I am not trying to make fun of your post, but what makes a post called *just trolling.*

I do agree the OP is way off base or left out something important, just saying he will go to WMC is the joke.
This is another case of monthly customers not paying attention to what their paying for, that's why Lifetime Service is so great, you never get charged for something your not using anymore, and don't have pay attention to any TiVo charges as there will be non for service. Done with the TiVo, sell it on E-Bay and get back some or all or your original Lifetime payment.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

lessd said:


> I am not trying to make fun of your post, but what makes a post called *just trolling.*
> 
> I do agree the OP is way off base or left out something important, just saying he will go to WMC is the joke.
> This is another case of monthly customers not paying attention to what their paying for, that's why Lifetime Service is so great, you never get charged for something your not using anymore, and don't have pay attention to any TiVo charges as there will be non for service. Done with the TiVo, sell it on E-Bay and get back some or all or your original Lifetime payment.


By trolling, I mean his entire story sounds unbelievable and therefore likely never happened. A 13-year TiVo customer who has had multiple TiVos over the years and has apparently been happy with them. He recently bought a brand new Roamio and also is happy with it, but he is going to send it back and give up on TiVo forever all because TiVo is following the terms of service he agreed to and won't prorate his cancelled monthly service fee of what, $10? The story makes no rational sense and hence it just feels fabricated to me.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

nooneuknow said:


> Yet another "loyal customer" that only embraces the stereotype that comes with people who call themselves "loyal customers".
> 
> Unless there are some other major mitigating factors involved here, that were not shared, I say I'm unsympathetic. I don't see any loyalty, just a sense of entitlement.
> 
> Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.


Please tell me where I demonstrate a sense of entitlement? I never said I was entitled to anything. I said I dislike the business model.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> By trolling, I mean his entire story sounds unbelievable and therefore likely never happened. A 13-year TiVo customer who has had multiple TiVos over the years and has apparently been happy with them. He recently bought a brand new Roamio and also is happy with it, but he is going to send it back and give up on TiVo forever all because TiVo is following the terms of service he agreed to and won't prorate his cancelled monthly service fee of what, $10? The story makes no rational sense and hence it just feels fabricated to me.


Ok. You can choose to not believe my story. The TiVo web site clearly states that I can de-activate online. There's nothing that says you can't de-activate via a chat. Based on the reaction from all of you I'm sure it does state in the terms of service that I'd be paying for partial months of use. The terms of service for my Roamio are irrelevant. I have no idea what the terms of service are for my HD since I signed up in 2008 (approx).

I have not said that TiVo violated any policy. I'm saying I don't want to do business with a company that operates this way.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Really? It's in the user agreement that you agreed to when you run guided setup. You do admit that you agreed to the policy, don't you?


Is that the agreement I got in 2008 when I activated my HD?


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

Here's what I take from the OP's story. That Tivo's customer service today is far different from what it's been over the years, and not in a good way. That more recently, Tivo's reps tend to be robotic in their answers or ability to in any way deviate from whatever rules are involved even in circumstances where it would make sense to do such both from the customer's viewpoint and Tivo's.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

Darichard said:


> Is that the agreement I got in 2008 when I activated my HD?


Yes.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

I can understand both sides of the story. But I wouldn't be sending the TiVo back in the case stated. I love TiVo too much to punish myself because I didn't agree on some minor policies. ( they are minor to me anyway. ) But I understand the poster deciding to send the TiVo back, I just think that they will be sorry that they didn't ignore the TiVo business model and continue to enjoy their TiVo instead.

I have done things in the past because I felt that I shouldn't encourage a certain behavior in a company, but was sorry later that I let my emotion deny me the use of their product.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

ohmark said:


> Here's what I take from the OP's story. That Tivo's customer service today is far different from what it's been over the years, and not in a good way. That more recently, Tivo's reps tend to be robotic in their answers or ability to in any way deviate from whatever rules are involved even in circumstances where it would make sense to do such both from the customer's viewpoint and Tivo's.


Agreed, and thanks. The Roamio appears to be a great product. I just don't want to support a company that does business this way.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

replaytv said:


> I have done things in the past because I felt that I shouldn't encourage a certain behavior in a company, but was sorry later that I let my emotion deny me the use of their product.


Completely agree. There's no question that WMC or MythTV (or whatever I use) won't be nearly as nice as the TiVo. So no question I'm losing something as well.

I won't shop at Wal-mart under any circumstances, for any product, at any price. I'm sure I spend more money by shopping elsewhere. There are several other companies with whom I refuse to do business. As I said above, I'm voting with my wallet.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

ohmark said:


> Here's what I take from the OP's story. That Tivo's customer service today is far different from what it's been over the years, and not in a good way. That more recently, Tivo's reps tend to be robotic in their answers or ability to in any way deviate from whatever rules are involved even in circumstances where it would make sense to do such both from the customer's viewpoint and Tivo's.


Yeah, that's my takeaway as well. When I fried a Series 1 or 2 years ago trying to upgrade it, I came clean on the phone with them and asked if there was anything they could do it help and they said no prob despite voiding the official warranty and sent me a replacement. That pretty much sealed the deal on several years of allegiance and I tried to return the favor when Crutchfield accidentally sent me two units and I sent one back. But, across the board, regardless of company, good support is hard to find these days.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Darichard said:


> Completely agree. There's no question that WMC or MythTV (or whatever I use) won't be nearly as nice as the TiVo. So no question I'm losing something as well.
> 
> I won't shop at Wal-mart under any circumstances, for any product, at any price. I'm sure I spend more money by shopping elsewhere. There are several other companies with whom I refuse to do business. As I said above, I'm voting with my wallet.


There is nothing you can purchase at Wal-Mart you can't get somewhere else with the same or better quality (and maybe a higher price), but that augment does not work well for TiVo, as there is no comparable product, the best DVR, next to TiVo, would be the MSOs' own DVR, at least you never have to be concerned about service on that DVR.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

The OP reminds me of this guy:

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-tesla-model-s-customer-smashes-windshield-with-wrench-2014-6


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Darichard said:


> Done with Tivo


Good bye and good luck, you'll need it.


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## capriz (Aug 4, 2003)

OP - there is life after Tivo. I was a huge fan for years until I cut the cord 3 years ago.
For me anyway MythTV has been more than up to the task. I still like to hang out at TC though


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

You know it's going to be a "fun" thread when the OP includes "loyal customer for X years" in a long rant.

Mediocre (at best) customer service for technically complex devices such as TiVo's is par for the course. I didn't start with TiVo until 2006 with a S2DT model. If there were "good old days" when their CSR's were above average, I missed them -- and customers who got that benefit should just count themselves as lucky.

Good CSR's are like good teachers -- there are only so many of them in the world, no matter what you're willing to invest in pay and training. And for a cost-sensitive product like TiVo's they can't afford to make that investment, even if the right people were available in the labor pool (because they would have to increase the product price too much).


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

SullyND said:


> The OP reminds me of this guy:
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-tesla-model-s-customer-smashes-windshield-with-wrench-2014-6


Wow that is funny, it is considered a protest in China to smash your own property? Even if that is somehow effective, I am going to choose something else.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> The TiVo web site clearly states that I can de-activate online.


link?


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> She said "ok" and proceeded to help me. She informed me that I would be billed for the HD through the end of the month. I was calling on the 2nd of the month. She told me that's their policy. Hmmmm...


Saying you called on the 2nd of the month is absolutely meaningless.
Tivo billing is according to activation date, what ever day of the month that is. It is not from the 1st to 30th/31st of each month.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I am a 14 year TiVo user and have no complaints about TiVo customer service, never have. In the last few years I have called three times when I purchased used unsubscribed TiVos hoping to get the $99 lifetime deals I see discussed here. Each time I got a very polite CSR and was informed the box didn't qualify. I gave up and purchased used TiVos with lifetime and called again, got very polite CSRs each time and service was quickly in my name and I was off the phone pronto, just the way I like it. 

Now I have unsubscribed back ups for parts and shouldn't have to call again for years, if ever. I can't recall a bad experience with TiVo customer service but I understood the terms of the agreements when I signed up. I even got to benefit from the single lifetime service transfer grandfathered in because some people somehow thought a single $200 lifetime purchase would apply to all TiVos for that person's lifetime. I knew better than that but I was happy to get the freebie because others somehow didn't know that was absurd and complained non-stop about it.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

davezatz said:


> But, across the board, regardless of company, good support is hard to find these days.





Chris Gerhard said:


> I knew better than that but I was happy to get the freebie because others somehow didn't know that was absurd and complained non-stop about it.


Been thinking more about this today... perhaps good customers are as rare as good support.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I am a 14 year TiVo user and have no complaints about TiVo customer service, never have. In the last few years I have called three times when I purchased used unsubscribed TiVos hoping to get the $99 lifetime deals I see discussed here. Each time I got a very polite CSR and was informed the box didn't qualify. I gave up and purchased used TiVos with lifetime and called again, got very polite CSRs each time and service was quickly in my name and I was off the phone pronto, just the way I like it.
> 
> Now I have unsubscribed back ups for parts and shouldn't have to call again for years, if ever. I can't recall a bad experience with TiVo customer service but I understood the terms of the agreements when I signed up. I even got to benefit from the single lifetime service transfer grandfathered in because some people somehow thought a single $200 lifetime purchase would apply to all TiVos for that person's lifetime. I knew better than that but I was happy to get the freebie because others somehow didn't know that was absurd and complained non-stop about it.


:up:


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

davezatz said:


> Been thinking more about this today... perhaps good customers are as rare as good support.


I'd say good customers are even more rare.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Darichard said:


> Preface: I've had a TiVos since 2001. I had a couple of original TiVo. I had two or three DirecTiVos. I had a TiVo HD. And perhaps another couple in there over the years. The point is, I'm a long time and loyal TiVo customer.
> 
> The other day my HD locked at the startup screen. Almost certainly a bad hard drive, or perhaps a bad power supply. I considered fixing it, then considered my time constraints, and decided to buy a Roamio. I figured I get the latest version and can fix my HD when I have more time.
> 
> ...


Please enlighten me as to the difference.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

unitron said:


> Please enlighten me as to the difference.


I don't know if the OP will be back to comment but I wondered about the claim:


> and that de-activation is not the same as cancelling


 You can cancel something that was never activated and de-activation is a specific form of cancellation, only applicable to services that were activated.

Assume you ordered a TiVo, changed your mind before it was shipped, you must cancel that, not de-activate the TiVo, it was never activated in the first place. A situation like the OP faced, a TiVo in service that he no longer wanted to use, he wanted that de-activated, something completely different.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I don't know if the OP will be back to comment but I wondered about the claim: You can cancel something that was never activated and de-activation is a specific form of cancellation, only applicable to services that were activated.
> 
> Assume you ordered a TiVo, changed your mind before it was shipped, you must cancel that, not de-activate the TiVo, it was never activated in the first place. A situation like the OP faced, a TiVo in service that he no longer wanted to use, he wanted that de-activated, something completely different.


Yes, but de-activating the hardware does not imply cancelling the service - they are separate things. For example, you can de-activate the old TiVo hardware and then transfer the monthly service to new TiVo hardware you are activating (and can do this transfer on-line, or at least you used to - I haven't checked lately).

I have several service contracts with TiVo, a couple dating back to 2001. The original hardware is long gone, sometimes transferred twice.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

CrispyCritter said:


> Yes, but de-activating the hardware does not imply cancelling the service - they are separate things. For example, you can de-activate the old TiVo hardware and then transfer the monthly service to new TiVo hardware you are activating (and can do this transfer on-line, or at least you used to - I haven't checked lately).
> 
> I have several service contracts with TiVo, a couple dating back to 2001. The original hardware is long gone, sometimes transferred twice.


With monthly TiVo service de-activation and cancel may be a good description, move the monthly to another TiVo you have de-activation a TiVo unit, cancel your monthly and you now are using one less TiVo. With Lifetime service non of this matters.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Yes, but de-activating the hardware does not imply cancelling the service - they are separate things. For example, you can de-activate the old TiVo hardware and then transfer the monthly service to new TiVo hardware you are activating (and can do this transfer on-line, or at least you used to - I haven't checked lately).
> 
> I have several service contracts with TiVo, a couple dating back to 2001. The original hardware is long gone, sometimes transferred twice.


Well, since all TiVo service is associated with the box, it could be said that "deactivating" a box is synonymous with "canceling" service on that box. The service contract on a box is not the same as the person's account.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Diana Collins said:


> Well, since all TiVo service is associated with the box, it could be said that "deactivating" a box is synonymous with "canceling" service on that box. The service contract on a box is not the same as the person's account.


It is the same but some people want to make a distinction between the two words, I canceled TiVo* A *so now I have one less TiVo, I de-activated TiVo* A* by moving the monthly to TiVo* B*, in both cases the TiVo* A* has no service, but you do get into people ideas about the pro-rate of the service cost (that TiVo does not do) as de-activated TiVo* A* has no pro-rate issue as the service goes directly to TiVo* B*.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> link?


http://support.mytivo.com.au/index.php?action=artikel&cat=15&id=77


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I don't know if the OP will be back to comment but I wondered about the claim: You can cancel something that was never activated and de-activation is a specific form of cancellation, only applicable to services that were activated.
> 
> Assume you ordered a TiVo, changed your mind before it was shipped, you must cancel that, not de-activate the TiVo, it was never activated in the first place. A situation like the OP faced, a TiVo in service that he no longer wanted to use, he wanted that de-activated, something completely different.


Wow, you guys must be really unhappy with me to be parsing my message down to the word. It's like you're going to make me defend every point. I'm getting crap for claiming I've been a loyal TiVo customer? All I expected was to not have to pay for service for a TiVo that was dead, and that could very well have been dead for over a month. It's not like they don't have a way to easily check this I don't think that's unreasonable. You guys clearly do. So be it.

De-activation vs. cancelling: the difference to me is "I'm done - cancel everything and stop billing me" vs. "I have a device for which I'd like to stop service."

If you have 3 cable boxes and return one, is that cancelling your service?

And assuming the "good customer" comment was targeted at me, why would you think I'm not a good customer? I buy the products, I pay my bill, and I never call them.


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## dbattaglia001 (Feb 9, 2003)

Darichard said:


> http://support.mytivo.com.au/index.php?action=artikel&cat=15&id=77


You posted a link relevant to Australia users. It is not uncommon for different procedures to apply to customers of different legal entities...so even though owned by TiVo, I would never assume that the same procedure applies in the states as it does to Australian customers.


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## spaldingclan (Aug 22, 2012)

don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Darichard said:


> Wow, you guys must be really unhappy with me to be parsing my message down to the word. It's like you're going to make me defend every point. I'm getting crap for claiming I've been a loyal TiVo customer? All I expected was to not have to pay for service for a TiVo that was dead, and that could very well have been dead for over a month. It's not like they don't have a way to easily check this I don't think that's unreasonable. You guys clearly do. So be it.
> 
> De-activation vs. cancelling: the difference to me is "I'm done - cancel everything and stop billing me" vs. "I have a device for which I'd like to stop service."
> 
> ...


You words are confusing because in TiVos case each TiVo unit stands on its own, you can't cancel all your TiVo boxes by calling TiVo and just telling them to cancel all your TiVos, it must be done one TiVo at a time, the TiVo CSR may do that for you on the single phone call, but you are talking about monthly service as you can't stop Lifetime Service on any TiVo (except within the first 30 days or an authorize TiVo exchange). All TiVo user are good TiVo customers, so the word loyal has no meaning when it comes to TiVo, all TiVo customers get what their are paying for, monthly or Lifetime, so again* loyal customer *means nothing. With cable it's a more total service that comes to your home via a cable, when one cancels their cable service the cable co comes and traps your cable line or if all the ch are scrambled they just turn off all your cable boxes (and or cable cards), TiVo is just a different type of service than cable, as most cable co will pro-rate your charges from the day you cancel, TiVo does not.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

spaldingclan said:


> don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya


Where have I heard that one before?......


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

lessd said:


> All TiVo user are good TiVo customers, so the word loyal has no meaning when it comes to TiVo, all TiVo customers get what their are paying for, monthly or Lifetime, so again* loyal customer *means nothing.


It means nothing? When DirecTV stopped supporting TiVo as their DVR guess what I did? I ditched DirecTV and got cable so I could still have a TiVO. The "loyal" work seems to be irksome to people for some reason. Perhaps the work "faithful" or "committed" would be better? Tell me what word you would use to describe somebody who stayed with TiVo for 13 years?

If I recall Tivo peaked at ~4M retail subscribers. Last year it was below 1M. (This could be US only - somebody pls correct me if needed.) For a company with shrinking market share in a a market that's growing like crazy (worldwide) I would expect retention to be a priority.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

dbattaglia001 said:


> You posted a link relevant to Australia users. It is not uncommon for different procedures to apply to customers of different legal entities...so even though owned by TiVo, I would never assume that the same procedure applies in the states as it does to Australian customers.


Amazing that I never noticed that it said Australia right there. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> Tell me what word you would use to describe somebody who stayed with TiVo for 13 years?


Such a person would be a "subscriber" - nothing more.

Australia


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

lessd said:


> .......... All TiVo user are good TiVo customers, so the word loyal has no meaning when it comes to TiVo, all TiVo customers get what their are paying for, monthly or Lifetime, so again* loyal customer *means nothing. With cable it's a more total service that comes to your home via a cable, when one cancels their cable service the cable co comes and traps your cable line or if all the ch are scrambled they just turn off all your cable boxes (and or cable cards), TiVo is just a different type of service than cable, as most cable co will pro-rate your charges from the day you cancel, TiVo does not.





Darichard said:


> It means nothing? When DirecTV stopped supporting TiVo as their DVR guess what I did? I ditched DirecTV and got cable so I could still have a TiVO. The "loyal" work seems to be irksome to people for some reason. Perhaps the work "faithful" or "committed" would be better? Tell me what word you would use to describe somebody who stayed with TiVo for 13 years?


I would use "satisfied for 13 years". Surely you didn't use TiVo all those years just as a favor did you? Do you have a relative who owns TiVo stock or is on the Board or in top management? Is TiVo a mom-and-pop operation just down the street so you wanted to support the local folks you know and love?

The concept of loyalty applied to business entities that we have no personal relationship with is ambiguous at best. To expect most businesses you deal with to value your loyalty is unrealistic although some of them may choose to do so for their own purposes.


Darichard said:


> If I recall Tivo peaked at ~4M retail subscribers. Last year it was below 1M. (This could be US only - somebody pls correct me if needed.) For a company with shrinking market share in a a market that's growing like crazy (worldwide) I would expect retention to be a priority.


The stand-alone DVR business is growing like crazy? No it's been stifled by CableCARD and Tuning Adapters combined with poor support for same by the Cable Cos. TiVo has been forced to look in other directions for business potential.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

TiVo makes no sense without Lifetime. And Lifetime units are far cheaper, and don't have problems with billing.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

dlfl said:


> The concept of loyalty applied to business entities that we have no personal relationship with is ambiguous at best. To expect most businesses you deal with to value your loyalty is unrealistic although some of them may choose to do so for their own purposes.


No idea why you think that. Cable, satellite companies, and many other subscription-based businesses value long term customers. So do some hardware companies. Apple is probably the best example of this. People wait in line overnight to get products that are not in short supply. Why is that?

Even if you keep your customer numbers flat, customer turnover costs money. I work for a large tech company that sells products (mostly to OEMs) and services to consumers. I suspect you guys want to think of me as somebody who is upset about losing $13 and doesn't understand business. I get business and understand the concept of customer affinity.

Short story: A couple of years ago two of my kids broke their iPod Touch devices. (Skipping that part to keep this short.) I went to the Apple store with the old devices to see what they could do. The damage wasn't covered by Apple Care (or whatever it's called). The guy decided to sell me a refurb one with something extra (don't recall what) and I newer upgraded iPod touch for the price of a refurb. Why? Because they wanted to keep my business and not have me replace them with other devices. I had no sense of entitlement and didn't demand anything. I didn't even ask for anything. They had no obligation to do anything for me.

I don't particularly like Apple products and don't use them myself. But that's a company I'll continue to do business with. That's an example of getting loyalty and affinity.



dlfl said:


> The stand-alone DVR business is growing like crazy? No it's been stifled by CableCARD and Tuning Adapters combined with poor support for same by the Cable Cos. TiVo has been forced to look in other directions for business potential.


I meant the cable market, not specifically the DVR market. I haven't checked those numbers. My point was that TV service is is a growth market globally.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Darichard said:


> Apple is probably the best example of this. People wait in line overnight to get products that are not in short supply. Why is that?
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Apple is sometimes really good. I have had extremely mixed experiences, and as a result of Apple flat out refusing to stand behind their defective Early 2011 Macbook Pro's, I am moving away from all Apple devices other than the iPad, although to be fair, I was thinking about doing that anyways due to the price premium over PCs getting a lot larger over the past 5 years, and the form factors available.

Apple flat-out refused to repair my Macbook Pro free of charge when it was their known defective logic board that caused it to fail. I should have sued them, but I had better things to do than to figure out how and spend a lot of time and money suing them for $300, even though it would have been the right and just thing to do.

Then, Apple refused to replace my MBP battery after it completely failed after 196 load cycles. Although normally I wouldn't expect the manufacturer to cover consumables like batteries, Apple specifically made the claim that the MBP batteries would retain 80% charge capacity at 1000 cycles. I believe that they made a stupid and erroneous statement, as I don't think any battery chemistry and controller in the world can guarantee performance like that over a wide variety of usage patterns, but they made a hard, factual statement, and refused to stand behind it. Here also, it was impractical to sue them for a $100 battery, although it would have been the right and just thing to do.

I am mostly done with Apple. I'm not paying a huge price premium for products that they aren't going to stand behind. If I'm going to have a computer that the manufacturer won't stand behind, then I'll get a cheaper Windows machine that has more features, or I'll build a desktop as my main machine and then I can replace parts myself.



> I meant the cable market, not specifically the DVR market. I haven't checked those numbers. My point was that TV service is is a growth market globally.


The DVR market has grown massively over the past 8-10 years. 10 years ago, it was a small niche, today it is a major differentiator between MSOs. It's just that relatively few of those DVRs are retail devices like TiVos.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Anybody else find it amusing that a thread titled "Done with TiVo", which begins with a post that clearly states the OP is done with the company, just keeps going, and going...

I don't see anybody saying "Please stay" or "Please reconsider", etc.

Heck, I don't even see much pointing out of the pro's of having a subscribed TiVo.

I spotted a few other posts in other threads about people bailing because TiVo wouldn't give them $99 lifetime on an old Premiere. Nobody is even saying anything to them, and <poof> there goes a TiVo sub.

It's like people who talk about suicide... The ones that really do it just do it and might leave a note. The ones that just keep talking about it just keep living to talk about it more, and bask in all the attention they are getting...

*BTW: The Summer update is rolling for those who were first on the priority signup list.* I've never seen any TiVo operate so fast.

TiVo finally got something right: Instead of pumping everybody up for some big deal update, only to underwhelm us, they surprised most everybody I've seen report in so far.

Of course, still no android streaming, and no amazon prime. But, I don't want or need those things.

I'm still trying to find the first flaw, and I'm only finding more changes that I actually like, and many fixes and improvements.

I guess the OP wouldn't care, though. They are "done with TiVo", so I don;t know why we are wasting perfectly good keystrokes on a deserter.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Darichard said:


> It means nothing? When DirecTV stopped supporting TiVo as their DVR guess what I did? I ditched DirecTV and got cable so I could still have a TiVO. The "loyal" work seems to be irksome to people for some reason. Perhaps the work "faithful" or "committed" would be better? Tell me what word you would use to describe somebody who stayed with TiVo for 13 years?
> 
> If I recall Tivo peaked at ~4M retail subscribers. Last year it was below 1M. (This could be US only - somebody pls correct me if needed.) For a company with shrinking market share in a a market that's growing like crazy (worldwide) I would expect retention to be a priority.


I assume you stayed with TiVo for 13 years as I did because I though it was the best DVR solution for me and I assume you also, you might stay with you wife out of a sense of loyalty but you stayed with TiVo because you though is was the best DVR alternative for you. If you though the another DVR was much better, say from your cable co., and stayed with TiVo only because you wanted to be, as you said above faithful, loyal to TiVo I will take back what I said.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

Darichard said:


> If you have 3 cable boxes and return one, is that cancelling your service?


Yes, that would be cancelling your service on that cable box only or deactivating service on that cable box only, either would be fine with me. When I walk up to a cable company customer service rep window, handing a cable box to that person and getting a receipt for that return, I expect that particular box to no longer be on my bill. If it is on my bill, I am going to call and refer to the return receipt and cancel the service on that box a second time, retroactive to the return date.

I am assuming of course there is no contractual commitment on the box beyond the date of return. If there is, the cancellation may result in an early cancellation fee.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Darichard said:


> If you have 3 cable boxes and return one, is that cancelling your service?


Absolutely. You may notice in the user agreement that YOU agreed to, TiVo talks about both cancelling your account (all boxes) and cancelling service (one box).


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

lessd said:


> I assume you stayed with TiVo for 13 years as I did because I though it was the best DVR solution for me and I assume you also, you might stay with you wife out of a sense of loyalty but you stayed with TiVo because you though is was the best DVR alternative for you. If you though the another DVR was much better, say from your cable co., and stayed with TiVo only because you wanted to be, as you said above faithful, loyal to TiVo I will take back what I said.


No question I stayed with TiVo because I liked the product. As i said, the work "loyal" seems to be getting peoples panties in a knot. I wish I has used a different one.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

nooneuknow said:


> Anybody else find it amusing that a thread titled "Done with TiVo", which begins with a post that clearly states the OP is done with the company, just keeps going, and going...


I'm being criticized for engaging in a dialog(?). Ummm... ok. No doubt if I didn't you'd criticize me for flaming TiVo and then leaving. I'm listening, admitting when I made mistakes, and trying my best see all sides and be reasonable.

I'll point out that some of you seem to be taking this a little personally. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Apple flat-out refused to repair my Macbook Pro free of charge when it was their known defective logic board that caused it to fail.


Sorry to hear this. I too would be done with them given the condition. An editorial comment: I never understood the appeal of Apple PCs. Until recently I could see a MacBook, but now other laptops have more than caught up (imo). Their other PCs are way overpriced relative to others. And the ironic thing to me is that it seems like most people who run install Windows anyway. However they are generally much nicer looking boxes.



Bigg said:


> I like to think my company would have done the right thing in this situation.
> Then, Apple refused to replace my MBP battery after it completely failed after 196 load cycles. Although normally I wouldn't expect the manufacturer to cover consumables like batteries, Apple specifically made the claim that the MBP batteries would retain 80% charge capacity at 1000 cycles. I believe that they made a stupid and erroneous statement, as I don't think any battery chemistry and controller in the world can guarantee performance like that over a wide variety of usage patterns, but they made a hard, factual statement, and refused to stand behind it. Here also, it was impractical to sue them for a $100 battery, although it would have been the right and just thing to do.


Same thing - I'd be done. fwiw, Lenovo has taken really good care of me with warranty issues. Once that's gone, don't expect much help from them.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> ..........
> The concept of loyalty applied to business entities that we have no personal relationship with is ambiguous at best. To expect most businesses you deal with to value your loyalty is unrealistic although some of them may choose to do so for their own purposes.........





Darichard said:


> No idea why you think that. Cable, satellite companies, and many other subscription-based businesses value long term customers. So do some hardware companies. Apple is probably the best example of this. People wait in line overnight to get products that are not in short supply. Why is that?
> 
> Even if you keep your customer numbers flat, customer turnover costs money. I work for a large tech company that sells products (mostly to OEMs) and services to consumers. I suspect you guys want to think of me as somebody who is upset about losing $13 and doesn't understand business. I get business and understand the concept of customer affinity.
> 
> ...


Wanting to "keep your business" is not the same as valuing your loyalty. The iPhone is losing market share (to Android phones) despite the customer loyalty you claim exists, which I think is actually mostly sheep wanting to be part of the in crowd.

Good luck with your loyalty card. I'm still wondering why you thought it was important to play that card in your original post. It suggested to me and others here that you were making an emotional (and bogus) bid to get sympathy for your complaint. If you actually stuck with TiVo for 13 years out of loyalty (i.e., not because you thought it was the best choice for your DVR needs) then that was dumb.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Wanting to "keep your business" is not the same as valuing your loyalty. The iPhone is losing market share (to Android phones) despite the customer loyalty you claim exists, which I think is actually mostly sheep wanting to be part of the in crowd.
> 
> Good luck with your loyalty card. I'm still wondering why you thought it was important to play that card in your original post. It suggested to me and others here that you were making an emotional (and bogus) bid to get sympathy for your complaint. If you actually stuck with TiVo for 13 years out of loyalty (i.e., not because you thought it was the best choice for your DVR needs) then that was dumb.


Good point: worldwide Apple is losing market share. I believe it's gaining in the US. My point was about loyalty to a product or brand.

For the 3rd time, I wish I has used a different word than "loyal." It seems to be emotionally charged. I mentioned it because I thought (and think) it's relevant. It's clear that you don't.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

SullyND said:


> The OP reminds me of this guy:
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-tesla-model-s-customer-smashes-windshield-with-wrench-2014-6


Isn't that basically like a child having a temper tantrum?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

nooneuknow said:


> Anybody else find it amusing that a thread titled "Done with TiVo", which begins with a post that clearly states the OP is done with the company, just keeps going, and going...
> 
> I don't see anybody saying "Please stay" or "Please reconsider", etc.
> 
> ...


how are the transfer rates? Are they back to normal speeds?


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> how are the transfer rates? Are they back to normal speeds?


I've seen reports of speeds getting as high at 170Mb/s, on the gigabit models, using ethernet. I don't recall what the speed record for them is.

So far it seems the sluggish UI performance and corruption of recordings is fixed.

Although, as it happens with every update, I'm seeing the snappiness of the UI return back to what it was, on my Roamio basics. Initially I was blown-back by the latency-free UI. I'll make a declaration on the transfer related issues after allowing a couple more days for things to settle back in.

Posting something is "fixed" or "better", only to have to take it back is a mistake I'm learning not to repeat. But, I'm cautiously optimistic at the moment.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Darichard said:


> I'm being criticized for engaging in a dialog(?). Ummm... ok. No doubt if I didn't you'd criticize me for flaming TiVo and then leaving. I'm listening, admitting when I made mistakes, and trying my best see all sides and be reasonable.
> 
> I'll point out that some of you seem to be taking this a little personally. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.


As others have noticed, and noted, you seem to have started this thread looking for sympathy and attention. It would seem you were not "done with TiVo", but looking to find people that would fall-in and back your complaint, and make you feel better. I'd say that didn't work out as (apparently) planned.

Plenty of people post things to the effect that they are leaving TiVo (as in not keeping what they have, and never buying anything more), then leave, never to post here again. Some just vent their complaints, and are never heard from again, without playing the "loyal customer" card. I would not criticize you in your absence. You have it backwards.

That you continue engaging, rather than disappearing, suggests you are very invested in what people think of you, and how they feel about you. While some leave TiVo and remain active on TCF, most who do don't seek out approval, or an acknowledgement that their decision was justified.

Take a moment and realize that you aren't helping your case any, and are just digging a deeper hole, while standing in it.

I've had more than my fair share of problems with TiVo, and wish most of them were as minor as being billed for a full month of TiVo service for a unit not using that month. That's not even a TiVo problem, it's TiVo policy.

Nobody has ever made the argument that you used as the foundation for your declaration, and succeeded in swaying community opinion. If you think you'll be the first, you are delusional. If you think you will be some folk hero if you state you have decided to stay with TiVo, you are delusional.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

nooneuknow said:


> As others have noticed, and noted, you seem to have started this thread looking for sympathy and attention. It would seem you were not "done with TiVo", but looking to find people that would fall-in and back your complaint, and make you feel better. I'd say that didn't work out as (apparently) planned.


What the what? Thank you for your thoughtful analysis of my motivation. Curious as to why you think I would want people to fall-in and back me. I'm done either way, and am not going to change TiVo's policy either way.

I used to spend time here. I've had TiVo a long time. I was surprised by how my interaction with them went and I chose to share it. You can keep looking all you want for more motive. You're not going to find it.

Saying I'm in a hole and digging indicates that I'm trying to get something out of this. In a hole relative to what?

This feels a little like I've wandered into a political or religious discussion thread and lobbed in an opposing view. I've been called names. I've been told my story isn't believable. You're playing psycho-analyst and implying my mom didn't hug me enough.

If you guys only want to read positive comments about TiVo, maybe you should indicate that. If you think I'm full of crap or unreasonable, you're free to say so (and you have).

And believe it or not, my primary motivation for posting was to check my reaction. I got a lot of feedback that says my expectation was way out of line. I get it. You think my perspective is wrong.

I can hardly wait for the next accusation or insightful probing of my psyche.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

LOL Looks like the forum Nazis have come to TiVo's rescue to teach you a lesson. It's never TiVo's fault, it's yours and you should receive a serious beating for bringing this up. I think some just cant wait to pile on one of the "un-faithful".


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Darichard said:


> Sorry to hear this. I too would be done with them given the condition. An editorial comment: I never understood the appeal of Apple PCs. Until recently I could see a MacBook, but now other laptops have more than caught up (imo). Their other PCs are way overpriced relative to others. And the ironic thing to me is that it seems like most people who run install Windows anyway. However they are generally much nicer looking boxes.
> 
> Same thing - I'd be done. fwiw, Lenovo has taken really good care of me with warranty issues. Once that's gone, don't expect much help from them.


Windows and PCs have caught up in just about every way to what Apple is doing, and offer a lot more options. 5-10 years ago when I got my first Mac laptop, Mac was way ahead of PC in the laptop area, Mac OS was way ahead of Windows, and the price premium for Mac wasn't that big. Today, with Windows 7 and 8, Windows is pretty darn good, and the price premium has balooned out of control. However, I am now highly unlikely to ever buy another Mac again, and won't consider them purely based on merit like I used to after Apple treating me the way that they did.

Lenovo makes some really cool stuff. I like the Ideapad Yoga, although I'm hoping that they fix the boneheaded lack of 5ghz Wifi in the next version. Given the price of building a desktop, and how easy it is to sync things across machines with Dropbox and other cloud services, I think I'll go for a two machine setup next time around. The MBP will last another year or two though for what I do with it.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

mschnebly said:


> LOL Looks like the forum Nazis have come to TiVo's rescue to teach you a lesson. It's never TiVo's fault, it's yours and you should receive a serious beating for bringing this up. I think some just cant wait to pile on one of the "un-faithful".


What is a bit strange, is I'm usually one of the ones who get the attention of the TiVo Nazis, as I have had no shortage of issues and problems with TiVo.

I learned, soon enough, that voicing negativity about TiVo on TCF is a bit like walking into cop bar any yelling "cops suck!", just because you got a ticket for being 5 minutes late to move your car to the other side of the street.

If something came out that was equal to TiVo in features and cost (plus allows hard drive expansion), I'd want to have one ASAP. If it worked to my satisfaction, I'd be done with Tivo. Just not over something as trivial as being billed for a month more than I thought was right (regardless of official policy on that matter, which is clear).


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

mschnebly said:


> LOL It's never TiVo's fault,


It only looks that way because so many people come here whining about how they've been wronged, when the reality is they got exactly what they paid for and exactly what they should have expected but somehow feel entitled to more.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> She was completely unemphatic. She was polite, but really didn't care. When I told her this was likely going to result in me returning my Roamio, she seemed equally unconcerned.
> 
> I just don't think this is a company I want to do business with. I'll be exercising my 30-day return policy on the service and will return my device.


So exactly what does Tivo owe you?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Windows and PCs have caught up in just about every way to what Apple is doing, and offer a lot more options. 5-10 years ago when I got my first Mac laptop, Mac was way ahead of PC in the laptop area, Mac OS was way ahead of Windows, and the price premium for Mac wasn't that big. Today, with Windows 7 and 8, Windows is pretty darn good, and the price premium has balooned out of control. However, I am now highly unlikely to ever buy another Mac again, and won't consider them purely based on merit like I used to after Apple treating me the way that they did.


Agreed. My gf (now my wife) was looking for a laptop about 5 years ago. The Apples were way ahead, imo. They were ultra books before Lenovo/Dell/Toshiba/Intel (and others) coined that name. The design of their laptops is great. And a refurb MacBook Air for ~$750 looks like a bargain. Microsoft finally caught up with Windows 7. The Mac OS now looks dated (imo).


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> So exactly what does Tivo owe you?


Absolutely nothing. I just don't want to do business with a company that would have me pay for service on a device that can't be used. They have every right to do so. I have every right to not do business with them.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

nooneuknow said:


> What is a bit strange, is I'm usually one of the ones who get the attention of the TiVo Nazis, as I have had no shortage of issues and problems with TiVo.
> 
> I learned, soon enough, that voicing negativity about TiVo on TCF is a bit like walking into cop bar any yelling "cops suck!", just because you got a ticket for being 5 minutes late to move your car to the other side of the street.


You're welcome. If you have some less-than-positive comments to make I'd suggest you slip them in now which I've got them distracted and planning their next volley. (Darn it, I'm sure I just dug that hole a little deeper.)


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Darichard said:


> Absolutely nothing. I just don't want to do business with a company that would have me pay for service on a device that can't be used. They have every right to do so. I have every right to not do business with them.


You don't have to do business with TiVo for any reason, or no reason, but you have a bogus complaint as TiVo is clear about how they charge, if you owned two homes and spent 6 months in home 2 and unplugged your TiVo in home 1 for the six months you were in home 2 would expect TiVo to look at their logs and see that your TiVo in home 1 has not been calling in and than not charge you?. 
Comcast will put your service on hold for a nominal amount money, that keeps you phone number etc. but TiVo has no program like that.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> Absolutely nothing. I just don't want to do business with a company that would have me pay for service on a device that can't be used. They have every right to do so. I have every right to not do business with them.


If you don't want to do business with a company that does that, why did you do business with them to begin with? The policy on subscription cancellations was in effect long before you subscribed that TivoHD? Tivo's published policy has never been to refund money for unused subscription time. 
So that reasoning of yours is (borrowing from Lessd) bogus.
The claim that the service you were charged for couldn't be used is also bogus. It was a choice you made, you chose not to fix your TiVo.

Just to see how petty you're being...
What was the billing date on that Tivo? How much were you being charged each month? You said you cancelled on the 2nd, so it would be interesting to see just how much money you're whining about even though you're likely to say it's not the money, it's the principle.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Darichard said:


> Agreed. My gf (now my wife) was looking for a laptop about 5 years ago. The Apples were way ahead, imo. They were ultra books before Lenovo/Dell/Toshiba/Intel (and others) coined that name. The design of their laptops is great. And a refurb MacBook Air for ~$750 looks like a bargain. Microsoft finally caught up with Windows 7. The Mac OS now looks dated (imo).


Yup. I agree.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> Just to see how petty you're being...
> What was the billing date on that Tivo? How much were you being charged each month? You said you cancelled on the 2nd, so it would be interesting to see just how much money you're whining about even though you're likely to say it's not the money, it's the principle.


I don't know. It's not about the money.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Darichard said:


> I don't know. It's not about the money.


I would agree. It's about you not being willing to abide by the user agreement that you agreed to.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Darichard said:


> I don't know. It's not about the money.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> I don't know. It's not about the money.


You don't even know what the billing date was, so for all you know you could have paid for only 2 days of service that you didn't get to use.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

scandia101 said:


> You don't even know what the billing date was, so for all you know you could have paid for only 2 days of service that you didn't get to use.


Hay, that may be $3.00, you can get a Mickey-d's sandwich for that price.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> You don't even know what the billing date was, so for all you know you could have paid for only 2 days of service that you didn't get to use.


No, I don't even know what my billing date was. I'm clearly a terrible person who doesn't deserve a TiVo.

From my original post: 


Darichard said:


> She informed me that I would be billed for the HD through the end of the month.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Unless you set that TiVo up as a prayer shrine with pictures no one is going to side with you here. And don't forget the pictures or you wont be believed. Don't want your TiVo service anymore? Why do you hate America? LOL



Darichard said:


> No, I don't even know what my billing date was. I'm clearly a terrible person who doesn't deserve a TiVo.
> 
> From my original post:


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

My prediction back in post #22:


dlfl said:


> You know it's going to be a "fun" thread when the OP includes "loyal customer for X years" in a long rant...........


Has been fulfilled in spades.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> No, I don't even know what my billing date was. I'm clearly a terrible person who doesn't deserve a TiVo.
> 
> From my original post:
> 
> ...


Yes, that statement from the csr means that you were billed through the end of the billing month, not through the end of July. You've already been informed of this, so if this is any indication of your comprehension skills, what you say the csr told you could be very different from what the csr actually said to you.

Not knowing your billing date (and apparently refusing to look it up) does not make you a terrible person, it only makes what you're doing here uninformed whining.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

lessd said:


> Hay, that may be $3.00, you can get a Mickey-d's sandwich for that price.


Who pays $30/mo for a single tivo subscription?
A full price sub on an HD would be about $.86 for two days


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

The OP is just acting out. Tivo is his scapegoat.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

All I know is I sure wouldn't give up my TiVos because of anything a CSR did. If I operated on that premise I wouldn't have Comcast, a Phone, a Computer, or Electricity. Giving up his Tivo will do nothing to change anything except he'll be giving up the best DVR there is for something less. Who is he hurting other than himself?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

scandia101 said:


> Who pays $30/mo for a single tivo subscription?
> A full price sub on an HD would be about $.86 for two days


Maybe that why the OP is so upset, $30/month is a lot to pay for a TiVo.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Isn't the way TiVo wants this to work is that you move the sub to the new box, rather than de-activate a sub and active a new one?


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Grakthis said:


> Isn't the way TiVo wants this to work is that you move the sub to the new box, rather than de-activate a sub and active a new one?


No.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> so if this is any indication of your comprehension skills


I think my comprehension skills are above average. This doesn't mean I'm immune to making mistakes. Is this another personal attach? Kinda hard to tell.



scandia101 said:


> Not knowing your billing date (and apparently refusing to look it up) does not make you a terrible person, it only makes what you're doing here uninformed whining.


Why does it matter? From the beginning I've saying saying it's the principal, not the money. Or is my lack of comprehension getting in the way again?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

lessd said:


> Maybe that why the OP is so upset, $30/month is a lot to pay for a TiVo.


I probably forgot to mention that it's not about the money.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

bareyb said:


> Who is he hurting other than himself?


I appreciate your concern for my well being.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

mschnebly said:


> Unless you set that TiVo up as a prayer shrine with pictures no one is going to side with you here. And don't forget the pictures or you wont be believed. Don't want your TiVo service anymore? Why do you hate America? LOL


Are you sure? I think they're wavering.

I sincerely hope you're finding this entertaining.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Oh I am. I love the threads where someone has an issue and "The Crew" comes to the rescue to tell them how wrong they are and TiVo is the very bestest thing out there so stop trying to get sympathy.



Darichard said:


> Are you sure? I think they're wavering.
> 
> I sincerely hope you're finding this entertaining.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> I think my comprehension skills are above average. This doesn't mean I'm immune to making mistakes.


Not understanding the terms of your subscription for years on end is not a mistake.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> Not understanding the terms of your subscription for years on end is not a mistake.


Why would I care? I gave them a cc # and they billed it monthly. You guys (yes, I'm generalizing) seem to think I live and breath TiVo. I can't say that I ever read those terms, and if I did if was years ago. I wasn't buying a car.

You really expect that the average person knows the terms of their TiVo agreement and on what day of the month it ends? I will happily confess that TiVo doesn't play that big a role in my life.

And for the 5th time (or maybe the 6th), what difference does it make. You guys don't seem to get (or care) that it's about the principle, not the money.

At this point I'm pretty sure I'm just writing to myself. For all practical purposes this has become a religious argument.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

mschnebly said:


> Oh I am. I love the threads where someone has an issue and "The Crew" comes to the rescue to tell them how wrong they are and TiVo is the very bestest thing out there so stop trying to get sympathy.


My personal favorite are replies that state "I don't have that problem", and nothing more.

Other than to ascerbate (make worse) the way the person with the problem feels, such posts read as utterly snooty/snarky/snobby to somebody having a problem, even if that somehow was not the intent. Silence by others implies they do not have the problem, and it doesn't take a genius to know that.

OTOH, if somebody says "I don't have that problem, have you tried (suggestion)?", or "(Suggestion) may be why you have your problem", that post is an example of a "community", rather than a group of mean-spirited and/or TiVo fanboys of the "TiVo can do no wrong" lynch mob mentality.

I am not implying sympathy to the OP's perception of being wronged by TiVo. I'm only commenting on the quoted member's post.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Darichard said:


> You really expect that the average person knows the terms of their TiVo agreement and on what day of the month it ends?


the billing cycle, sure, i know for every service provider i have, or know where to find the info.

the terms of every service provider? heck no, they change at the drop of a hat, i would have wasted days just reading. the only time to i even bother reading the terms is when i sign up, when there's a problem, or before ending the service. i don't commit them to memory.

that said, after thinking about your rant, i had a realization - i can't think of another service provider to which i have ever subscribed, when i was required to pay in advance, that failed to refund partial charges for unused services at the end of the relationship. that makes tivo's terms an anomaly for me, too.

considering the dollar amount in question, it wouldn't have been a deal breaker for me. plus, i generally end service in the last few days of the billing cycle, so i don't have to haggle for refunds.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

NorthAlabama said:


> plus, i generally end service in the last few days of the billing cycle, so i don't have to haggle for refunds.


Thank you for getting my point. I don't usually need to ask. It never occurred to me I would need ask (or haggle) given the conditions.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

bareyb said:


> What is the principle? That most places will give you a partial refund and TiVo won't? Is that why you are done with TiVo?


I don't think there's any more I can write to explain it. Communication is not my forte.

There's a right way to do business and wrong way. There are agreements, and there is treating customers the right way.

And to those of you who think I'm acting entitled, you're wrong. I'm not saying I deserve this treatment for some special reason. I'm saying we all do.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> Why would I care?


So that you understand what will happen when you end the subscription.



> I gave them a cc # and they billed it monthly. You guys (yes, I'm generalizing) seem to think I live and breath TiVo. I can't say that I ever read those terms, and if I did if was years ago. I wasn't buying a car.
> 
> You really expect that the average person knows the terms of their TiVo agreement and on what day of the month it ends? I will happily confess that TiVo doesn't play that big a role in my life.


Nope, don't expect it at all from the average person until the issue actually comes up and they feel the need to whine about it. The information is easily obtained from two different sources.



> And for the 5th time (or maybe the 6th), what difference does it make. You guys don't seem to get (or care) that it's about the principle, not the money.


The problem is that you are wrong on that front too. You were negligent in not understanding the terms of a tivo subscription. It's really a simple contract issue. if you understood it when you entered into it, you'd have no reason to make the claim you're making now.



> At this point I'm pretty sure I'm just writing to myself. For all practical purposes this has become a religious argument.


No, it's become a logic (us) vs feelings (you) argument.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

NorthAlabama said:


> that said, after thinking about your rant, i had a realization - i can't think of another service provider to which i have ever subscribed, when i was required to pay in advance, that failed to refund partial charges for unused services at the end of the relationship. that makes tivo's terms an anomaly for me, too.
> 
> considering the dollar amount in question, it wouldn't have been a deal breaker for me. plus, i generally end service in the last few days of the billing cycle, so i don't have to haggle for refunds.


That's just plain wrong.

The reason Tivo doesn't offer a refund is because when you cancel, the subscription isn't actually canceled until the prepaid period ends. You can call and cancel the day after you get billed and use the service for 29 more days until the subscription ends. You can use every last penny of service you've paid for. The OP's problem is that he had a broken Tivo that he chose not to fix.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

scandia101 said:


> That's just plain wrong.


if your referring to the policy, i agree.


scandia101 said:


> The reason Tivo doesn't offer a refund is because when you cancel, the subscription isn't actually canceled until the prepaid period ends.


no matter how you word it, that is charging customers for unused services, by forcing the customer to subscribe past the date the customer requests to leave. since the customer pays in advance, this is a way for tivo to avoid refunds for unused services.

this leaves tivo standing alone in its policy compared to every other service provider with which i have done business.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> No, it's become a logic (us) vs feelings (you) argument.


Just to be clear: people saying my story is fabricated, calling me a troll, writing "don't let the door hit ya", accusing me of making an empty threat about cancelling, presuming to know my motives, and calling me entitled, accusing me of acting out... this all sounds logical to you? As well as you calling me a whiner? That's logic?

I think you may be confusing the words logical and legal. Many of you are saying I'm legally bound to pay for the remainder of the month of service for my HD. I've never disputed that. Many here keep telling me what I'm obligated to do. I'm well aware of this.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Darichard said:


> Many of you are saying I'm legally bound to pay for the remainder of the month of service for my HD. I've never disputed that.


that's an interesting question. i wonder if any judge or arbitor would agree with a customer being billed for service they asked to be discontinued? just because something's written into a customer agreement doesn't make it right or legal.

if i have 3 boxes with directv or comcast, and call to disconnect 1, they will issue a partial months credit for the 1 box through the end of the billing cycle if i paid in advance.

of course, finding the answer would cost more than the cost of the unused service, and that's probably what the writers of the agreement were counting on! i have said before, that in itself would not have prevented me from using the service.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> that's an interesting question. i wonder if any judge or arbitor would agree with a customer being billed for service they asked to be discontinued? just because something's written into a customer agreement doesn't make it right or legal.
> 
> if i have 3 boxes with directv or comcast, and call to disconnect 1, they will issue a partial months credit for the 1 box through the end of the billing cycle if i paid in advance.
> 
> of course, finding the answer would cost more than the cost of the unused service, and that's probably what the writers of the agreement were counting on! i have said before, that in itself would not have prevented me from using the service.


The canceling of service can be complicated, for some services you cancel from Comcast your pro rate is from the day you cancel, other services from Comcast you must return the equipment not needed anymore before the pro rate starts. Pro-rate is costly for any co. to do, so I think TiVo does not do pro-rate because of the monthly charge being so small. It is hard for me to believe that TiVo makes tons of money by not giving pro-rate money back, also we don't know if TiVo can pro-rate the service that provides the guide data to TiVo.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

lessd said:


> The canceling of service can be complicated, for some services you cancel from Comcast your pro rate is from the day you cancel, other services from Comcast you must return the equipment not needed anymore before the pro rate starts.


i wasn't talking about leased equipment charges, where the equipment needs to be returned for a partial month's refund.

i was only speaking to the services provided to owned equipment, which are switched on and off electronically by the provider through computers.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> i wasn't talking about leased equipment charges, where the equipment needs to be returned for a partial month's refund.
> 
> i was only speaking to the services provided to owned equipment, which are switched on and off electronically by the provider through computers.


Maybe in the analog days but now you do need some type of leased equipment to receive any cable, IE cable card(s) Comcast converter box. I just got another Mini so I did not need the "free" cable box that came with my Comcast package, but I could not get my free cable card billing until I returned the converter box even though Comcast could have cut off my converter box from receiving anything.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

lessd said:


> Maybe in the analog days but now you do need some type of leased equipment to receive any cable, IE cable card(s) Comcast converter box. I just got another Mini so I did not need the "free" cable box that came with my Comcast package, but I could not get my free cable card billing until I returned the converter box even though Comcast could have cut off my converter box from receiving anything.


comcast has no analog here, and equipment is billed separately. you can return the cable card (or modem, or box) to the local office to stop equipment charges. over the phone you can disconnect comcast package services receive a refund for partial month's unused services.

with directv (if you own your equipment), you can disconnect it over the phone and get a refund for partial month's unused services (nothing to return, not analog). it's the same with leased equipment with directv, the equipment is billed separately, and they charge you for unreturned equipment if it doesn't arrive soon after disconnect. even if it's leased, you receive a refund for partial month's unused services immediately when you call to disconnect a box.

with tivo, you own your equipment, you can disconnect over the phone (nothing to return) - no refund. tivo is different.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> comcast has no analog here, and equipment is billed separately. you can return the cable card (or modem, or box) to the local office to stop equipment charges. over the phone you can disconnect comcast package services receive a refund for partial month's unused services.
> 
> with directv (if you own your equipment), you can disconnect it over the phone and get a refund for partial month's unused services (nothing to return, not analog). it's the same with leased equipment with directv, the equipment is billed separately, and they charge you for unreturned equipment if it doesn't arrive soon after disconnect. even if it's leased, you receive a refund for partial month's unused services immediately when you call to disconnect a box.
> 
> with tivo, you own your equipment, you can disconnect over the phone (nothing to return) - no refund. tivo is different.


I agree.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Darichard said:


> Just to be clear: people saying my story is fabricated, calling me a troll, writing "don't let the door hit ya", accusing me of making an empty threat about cancelling, presuming to know my motives, and calling me entitled, accusing me of acting out... this all sounds logical to you? As well as you calling me a whiner? That's logic?
> ........


Well, it **could** be. One can make a logical decision or take a position based strictly on logic, and still get very emotional when talking about it. If the posters in all the instances you mentioned logically believe your position is wrong, then their use of emotional or informal language isn't necessarily illogical. Of course it's possible at least some of them are using the situation to beat up on you just because they enjoy doing that. One can't be sure about such things and it does seem to happen frequently on anonymous forums.

And making unjustifiable assumptions about the motivations of others happens a lot too.


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## randyb359 (Jan 3, 2009)

Virgin mobile does not give you a pro rated refund if you cancel mid month


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

randyb359 said:


> Virgin mobile does not give you a pro rated refund if you cancel mid month


no pre-paid wireless phone service does, including att, verizon, & t-mobile.

but, when you have month to month service, even under contract, when you cancel with att, verizon, & t-mobile, you get a credit for the unused service to the end of the billing cycle. if there's a termination fee, it's charged, too, but the service is refunded from the day you cancel.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

NorthAlabama said:


> that's an interesting question. i wonder if any judge or arbitor would agree with a customer being billed for service they asked to be discontinued? just because something's written into a customer agreement doesn't make it right or legal.


Right. I should have said "contractual" rather than legal. I have no idea if it's legal or not, but I suspect it is.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Darichard said:


> Right. I should have said "contractual" rather than legal. I have no idea if it's legal or not, but I suspect it is.


If the "contractual terms" are reasonable they will hold, if TiVo "contractual terms" are unreasonable they will not hold up. IE: anyone canceling monthly service with TiVo will pay a cancellation fee of $1000 (that was said on page 45 in the contract.)


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Well, it **could** be. One can make a logical decision or take a position based strictly on logic, and still get very emotional when talking about it.


It could be. But I believe I was accused of being emotional vs. the forum being "logical." I don't see where I've been overtly emotional about this and I believe I'm using logic. I think TiVo is wrong for the reasons I've already stated. I made my argument. Other have reacted with accusations and name calling. The point is, I don't the point made by somebody else about emotion vs. logic is correct.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

NorthAlabama said:


> that said, after thinking about your rant, i had a realization - i can't think of another service provider to which i have ever subscribed, when i was required to pay in advance, that failed to refund partial charges for unused services at the end of the relationship. that makes tivo's terms an anomaly for me, too.


Must have never been a Netflix subscriber or Gamefly subscriber. I know Netflix still does this with DVDs and did it before they split DVD and streaming. If you cancel your service so it doesn't autorenew, it doesn't matter when your month is over they won't ship you another DVD. You are just given until the end of your month to return any outstanding DVDs.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Darichard said:


> It could be. But I believe I was accused of being emotional vs. the forum being "logical." I don't see where I've been overtly emotional about this and I believe I'm using logic. I think TiVo is wrong for the reasons I've already stated. I made my argument. Other have reacted with accusations and name calling. The point is, I don't the point made by somebody else about emotion vs. logic is correct.


I, at least, have no idea what "principle" is involved here that you keep on claiming is driving you, and thus I don't understand your logical position.

You've made it very clear that it is not TiVo's policy itself that is at stake - you were very willing to accept the $10 (my guess as to the money) if they were willing pay it and continue to do business with TiVo even if they had a policy you didn't like.

It's not the principle that TiVo is not upholding their end of the user agreement - you've stated that contractwise TiVo is completely in the right and you have no legitimate claim according to the contract.

That leaves the principle that you feel it is right to extort $10 from any company you do business with if you feel they should be doing something different from what they are, irrespective of contract or your obligations. (You're the one using the argument to TiVo "If you don't give me $10 I think I'm owed on this contract with you (even if I admit our agreement says you don't owe it to me), I'm going to cost you money on this other separate contract, so you'd better pay up".)

As far as I can tell from the information you've given, and I agree that's only one side of the story, TiVo has behaved perfectly properly and politely throughout all of this, and you have not.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> I, at least, have no idea what "principle" is involved here that you keep on claiming is driving you, and thus I don't understand your logical position.


Ok. I don't know how to explain it differently. A couple of other people on this thread seem to understand my position and have given examples of why it could seem reasonable to them. Maybe you want to read those posts(?).



CrispyCritter said:


> That leaves the principle that you feel it is right to extort $10 from any company you do business with if you feel they should be doing something different from what they are, irrespective of contract or your obligations. (You're the one using the argument to TiVo "If you don't give me $10 I think I'm owed on this contract with you (even if I admit our agreement says you don't owe it to me), I'm going to cost you money on this other separate contract, so you'd better pay up".)


More accusations. Do you know what the word "extort" means? I made no demands on TiVo. I am choosing not to do business with them any longer. How is exercising my rights as a customer extortion?

I never said TiVo needed to pay up. I asked for nothing.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Darichard said:


> More accusations. Do you know what the word "extort" means? I made no demands on TiVo. I am choosing not to do business with them any longer. How is exercising my rights as a customer extortion?
> 
> I never said TiVo needed to pay up. I asked for nothing.


I'm sympathetic to your complaints here, as I do think TiVo should (in cases where there is a new box being sub'd) pro-rate or otherwise not make you pay for the old broken box.

That said, he's right about his usage of 'extort.' You are demanding X (to which you are not legally or morally entitled) or else you will destroy Y (in this case, an existing relationship with TiVo on the new box). You explained this consequence to the rep, per your own story.

This is extortion. Of course, extortion is a legal term, right? So we don't apply it to non-legal matters except as an illustration of the principal, not as the actual crime. But as an illustration of the idea, what you did was extortion.

We all do it though, in some form. It's just usually implied or implicit, whereas you explicitly stated it. Which is kinda breaking our established social contract.

Imagine walking into best buy and saying "give me $5 off this DVD or I'm going to return the TV i just bought from you last week." We'd all call you a ****** bag for that, right? But saying "give me money back on this month of service I bought that I don't want anymore, or else I'm going to return this DVR I bought from you" well, you think that's just because you paid for something you can't use, and you want TiVo to accept that cost, not you.

*shrug*

It's an ethos. It's fine to have that ethos. But don't pretend you don't have that ethos. Embrace it.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> That said, he's right about his usage of 'extort.' You are demanding X (to which you are not legally or morally entitled) or else you will destroy Y (in this case, an existing relationship with TiVo on the new box). You explained this consequence to the rep, per your own story.


But he's not. I never said "pro-rate me or else." I never asked for anything. She told me her actions. I told her the likely result. That is in no way extortion.

Your neighbor says he's going to cut down a tree that is on the property line between your houses. You reply that when he does, you will report it to the HOA. Is that extortion?

The OED defines extort as: "Obtain (something) by force, threats, or other unfair means." I obtained nothing, I did not threaten, and I did nothing unfair.

Extortion has to do with a wrongful use of force or power, not exercising your rights and informing. If I had given her an ultimatum that will still have not been extortion. But I didn't, so it most certainly was not.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

LOL Wonder how many conflicts have resulted when what was claimed to be just a "warning" was taken as a "threat". The laughable thing about this particular case is the assumption that anything a customer says could taken as a threat by a TiVo rep. As long as they stick to their scripts and policies there is nothing that would threaten them, including threatening to return a TiVo.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

The OP is saying I'm going to financially harm you unless you take back the financial harm I perceived you did to me.


extortion is defined as 

"the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threat."

What is the OP doing but trying to obtain money through a threat? He's trying to obtain his $10 through threat of a cancellation. 



Threaten is defined as "(of a situation ) seem likely to produce an unpleasant or unwelcome result." or "express one's intention to harm."

In this case he expressed his intention to financially harm Tivo by returning a Tivo and this is an unwelcome result for Tivo.


Obviously not unlawful and it is his right to return his Tivo. 

And extort and threaten are harsh words to use as they are usually or frequently associated with serious crimes or transgressions. But the framework of "do this or else" is there.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

wow, i see it differently, altogether. 

the op perceives the cancellation policy as overbilling for unused services. tivo refused to negotiate, choosing to blindly follow policy, and escalate a small customer billing dispute to a point where the customer would rather cancel altogether than continue to do any business with tivo.

tivo has the right to blindly follow their own policy. the customer has the right to leave at any time, within the same policy.

however; if tivo believes this is a smart business decision, they need look no further than their own independent subscription numbers, and the continued decline in those numbers. it should be a hint to tivo that it's worth $10 to save a good customer, than spend hundreds to try and find a new one.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> The OP is saying I'm going to financially harm you unless you take back the financial harm I perceived you did to me.
> 
> extortion is defined as
> 
> ...


You guys are really trying hard here, aren't you? I'm going to suggest that you are not comprehending what I'm saying. I never said "I'm leaving unless you <insert your imagined threat here>" That still would not have been extortion under any accepted usage of the word. But even if I give you the semantics (which I'm not), from a purely logical perspective I never made a threat to do anything. How can there be extortion with no threat?

Once again: I never asked for anything. I never made a threat. They told me what they were doing. I told them what I was (likely) doing. It was a way of letting them know I did not care for their business practices. It was not a negotiation. We can go at this all night if you want. Your point about me extorting something is just flat wrong.

Let's say you or Grakthis go to a grocery store. You have an unpleasant experience with the checkout person. Case 1: you say "I'm going to fill out a complaint card." and you do so. Case 2: you say nothing and fill out a complaint card.

Are both, one, or neither of those extortion by your definition?

Is your argument supporting the use of the word "extort" in my case a semantic one or a legal one? Just curious as to where you're coming from.

(Edit: fixed typos)


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

This discussion is getting us nowhere, let end it. At 125 posts I don't care who has the moral right to get the $10, TiVo or the OP.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

lessd said:


> This discussion is getting us nowhere, let end it. At 125 posts I don't care who has the moral right to get the $10, TiVo or the OP.


How 'bout if we take up a collection for the OP?


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

unitron said:


> How 'bout if we take up a collection for the OP?


I'm in. You can put me down for ten bucks.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

lessd said:


> This discussion is getting us nowhere, let end it. At 125 posts I don't care who has the moral right to get the $10, TiVo or the OP.


For the Nth time, it's not about the money.

You guys want to keep making it about the money. It has nothing to do with the money for me. It has to do with how TiVo runs their business. It's about doing the right think and treating customers fairly and reasonably.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

How about a collection to bribe the forum admins to obliterate this thread.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

I have to say, I admire Darichard's persistence! 

My $0.02: As several others have said, Darichard has a point about the TiVo "no refund" policy. If you are billing for a service a month in advance of the user actually making use of the service, and the user cancels before that month is up, the only fair and reasonable thing to do is to issue a pro-rated credit for the unused service.

However, there is no obligation for a company to have fair and reasonable policies. TiVo has always had this policy, and it is clearly disclosed in the user agreement. It is the customer's decision as to whether he or she chooses to do business under those terms. Darichard has stated that they choose not to do business with TiVo under these terms, which they are completely free to do.

No one is threatening or extorting anyone. This really all started over the confusion between "cancelling" and "deactivating" a TiVo. From TiVo's point of view, these two words are synonymous - when you stop service on a TiVo you are "cancelling" service for that device. Asking to "deactivate" a device does not change TiVo's POV...they still see it as cancelling service for that device and they do not allow you to do that online, and nor do they issue any prorated refunds.

So many aspersions have been cast on Darichard's character and motives in this thread I can't help but comment that if I were a newcomer to this site, I would likely have to think twice about visiting again, and I sure wouldn't want to post anything. Hmm...I guess TiVo may not be the only organization that has characteristics that drive people away.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> You guys are really trying hard here, aren't you? I'm going to suggest that you are not comprehending what I'm saying. I never said "I'm leaving unless you <insert your imagined threat here>" That still would not have been extortion under any accepted usage of the word. But even if I give you the semantics (which I'm not), from a purely logical perspective I never made a threat to do anything. How can there be extortion with no threat?
> 
> Once again: I never asked for anything. I never made a threat. They told me what they were doing. I told them what I was (likely) doing. It was a way of letting them know I did not care for their business practices. It was not a negotiation. We can go at this all night if you want. Your point about me extorting something is just flat wrong.
> 
> ...


Did you not tell her that you were returning your new Tivo if they don't give you a pro-rated refund on the last monthly fee for your old one?

That's how I read it and I think that's how many others read it. That's where the use of the words "extortion and threat" come from. Obviously used with a little hyperbole but it roughly fits the interaction.

YOu complaint analogy doesn't work because you aren't demanding anything from the checkout person. With Tivo you wanted $10 back.

I already said you did nothing unlawful at all. I don't think anyone here thinks you did anything illegal in the slightest. Never crossed my mind. But I don't think extortion is only about unlawful acts. People emotionally extort all the time. And as I said obviously a little hyperbole is being used because this is a sort of a Seinfeld discussion at the local diner type of issue.

You seem to have made a mountain out of it. I'd probably make you George then.  I think most of us would be Jerry or Elaine on this and think it's a molehill and would say, "Shame on you Tivo," but that's about it or at least I would. We wouldn't cut off the kid's hand because he stole a pack of gum. Nor throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Personally I think you're just acting out. Something else is going on there. Nothing major but something else. You weren't really using your Tivo anyway so I don't buy that it's all about the principle of the ~$10. Probably just the straw that broke the camel's back or a convenient cover.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Diana Collins said:


> If you are billing for a service a month in advance of the user actually making use of the service, and the user cancels before that month is up, the only fair and reasonable thing to do is to issue a pro-rated credit for the unused service.


I disagree there.

First they aren't exactly billing a month in advance are they? Aren't they billing a day in advance or a few days in advance of the beginning of the month?

Minor point, but it pertains to fairness and reasonableness of how they bill a customer.

Second and more to the point, I don't think the only fair and reasonable thing to do is issue a pro-rated credit. Yes it is more fair and reasonable to issue a pro-rated refund. But hardly unfair and not reasonable to have a clear policy where the customer pays for the rest of the month they cancel in. Anyone that has been around awhile knows all about canceling before the next period starts or else you might be paying for the next period. Fairly common straightforward practice.

Judge Judy never pro-rates rent for tentants that move out before the end of the month.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

dlfl said:


> How about a collection to bribe the forum admins to obliterate this thread.


You know that it's possible to just stop reading it, right?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Did you not tell her that you were returning your new Tivo if they don't give you a pro-rated refund on the last monthly fee for your old one?


I did not. It does not fit the interaction. I have to question whether or not you've really read what I've written.



trip1eX said:


> YOu complaint analogy doesn't work because you aren't demanding anything from the checkout person. With Tivo you wanted $10 back.


I didn't ask for anything back. I didn't say "refund it or I'm leaving." Where did the $10 amount come from?



trip1eX said:


> I already said you did nothing unlawful at all. I don't think anyone here thinks you did anything illegal in the slightest. Never crossed my mind. But I don't think extortion is only about unlawful acts. People emotionally extort all the time. And as I said obviously a little hyperbole is being used because this is a sort of a Seinfeld discussion at the local diner type of issue.


Okee dokee. Extortion always involves a threat and coercion. I made no threats and didn't coerce anybody. You seem to want to my actions extortion for some reason in the absence of any evidence that this is accurate, even semantically. So be it.



trip1eX said:


> You seem to have made a mountain out of it. I'd probably make you George then.  I think most of us would be Jerry or Elaine on this and think it's a molehill and would say, "Shame on you Tivo," but that's about it or at least I would. We wouldn't cut off the kid's hand because he stole a pack of gum. Nor throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Ok. Thanks for your input.



trip1eX said:


> Personally I think you're just acting out. Something else is going on there. Nothing major but something else. You weren't really using your Tivo anyway so I don't buy that it's all about the principle of the ~$10. Probably just the straw that broke the camel's back or a convenient cover.


Another probing into my "true" motives. You seem to be unwilling to accpet things as I described them. To be clear, your contention is that I had pretty much already decided to stop using TiVo before before I went out a bought a Roamio?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Darichard said:


> You know that it's possible to just stop reading it, right?


Actually, no, it's not.



I refer you to the threads where people keep talking about how utterly stupid "Under The Dome" is, and yet they keep watching and commenting on how utterly stupid it is.

(those threads are actually far more entertaining than the show, with more logic and fewer plot holes, and lots and lots of snark)


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Darichard said:


> You know that it's possible to just stop reading it, right?


Yeah, I guess I should join the 99.999+% of forum readers who have already done that. Thanks for a totally worthless thread.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

unitron said:


> Actually, no, it's not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:up: Finally someone with a good opinion, * "Under The Dome" * has gotten stupid and I have taken it off my SP list.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Yeah, I guess I should join the 99.999+% of forum readers who have already done that. Thanks for a totally worthless thread.


So I post something I think is relevant to TiVo as a service provider. I got the web site thing wrong (Australia only) but I stand by my post and decision to stop doing business with TiVo. You disagree with me. That's fine. After all the noise and personal attacks, I'm now blamed for the thread being "worthless?" Did I deprive you of some value you expected to get out of reading this?

To paraphrase trip1eX, something else seems to be going on here. I can't get my head around it.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> I disagree there.
> 
> First they aren't exactly billing a month in advance are they? Aren't they billing a day in advance or a few days in advance of the beginning of the month?
> 
> ...


I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole. The "fair and reasonable" description is clearly my opinion. Opinions are thick on the ground...everyone has (at least) one.

I admit I don't have a great deal of visibility into how TiVo does monthly service billing (I'd never do monthly if I could avoid it...lifetime is just a much better deal IMHO), so I'm going by what others have posted. As I understand it, if I were paying monthly, and activated my TiVo on 5/26, I would have paid the monthly fee for the next month's (i.e. through 6/25) service at that time. On 6/26 my credit card would be have been billed for service through 7/25. If I cancelled service on a box today (7/16) I would effectively be "giving up" 9 days worth of service as TiVo will not issue a prorated refund. If that's not how it works, then I stand corrected.

By contrast, I cancelled my DirecTV service on 7/11, and my billing date was 7/9. If DirecTV worked like TiVo, I would be giving up 29 days of service. However, DirecTV issued a prorated refund for 29/31 of my monthly service fee.

Sure, there are plenty of other examples of businesses that have the exact same policy as TiVo. *IMO*, if the payment is for a service (as opposed to a lease payment for a physical thing like an apartment or car) it is unfair to not issue prorated refunds. In my experience the standard practice is to issue prorated refunds for services and TiVo is an exception rather than the rule. YMMV.

MY point was that Darichard did not deserve some of the abuse he got in this thread - but that is, again, just my opinion.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> I did not. It does not fit the interaction. I have to question whether or not you've really read what I've written.
> 
> I didn't ask for anything back. I didn't say "refund it or I'm leaving." Where did the $10 amount come from?
> 
> ...


The gist of what you wrote is I didn't get my pro-rated refund back for the last month of service on my old tivo so I'm returning the new one I bought.

Some people spun it as threat (I'm returning my new tivo) unless I can obtain(the pro-rated refund I think I deserve) which fits a definition of extortion....the practice of obtaining something through a threat.

You can say well I didn't say it directly. I was exercising my rights. I didn't threaten. etc. But I think everyone knows that already.

Extortion didn't cross my mind until I read it in other posts, but after a deep breath I could see the parallels. It's just a creative way to use the words extortion and threat. Also I can see how it could be perceived as harsh and make someone defensive.

And yes I think you already had one foot out the Tivo door from what I read. I mean you say hadn't used your Tivo is months. Yet were still paying it. Then suddenly ...you are so concerned with Tivo not pro-rating your refund for the month in which you cancel?

Overall it just seems like a foolish behavior if you were fine with Tivo otherwise. All the cliches apply here. Mountain of a molehill. Baby and bathwater. Grass ain't greener. .....

All for what? To punish Tivo? To stick it to them? over part of a monthly fee? That's the $10 I'm talking about. Isn't it $10 or so? It's not like you haven't heard of not canceling something before a period ends and then getting charged for the next period. That has been a fairly common practice from various businesses.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Diana Collins said:


> ...if the payment is for a service (as opposed to a lease payment for a physical thing like an apartment or car) it is unfair to not issue prorated refunds. In my experience the standard practice is to issue prorated refunds for services and TiVo is an exception rather than the rule.


this.


> ...Darichard did not deserve some of the abuse he got in this thread...


and definitely this.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Darichard said:


> But he's not. I never said "pro-rate me or else." I never asked for anything. She told me her actions. I told her the likely result. That is in no way extortion.


"Hey, I just said 'it would be a shame if something happened to your pretty wife.' I didn't say I was going to hurt her!"



> Your neighbor says he's going to cut down a tree that is on the property line between your houses. You reply that when he does, you will report it to the HOA. Is that extortion?


It is certainly a threat of retaliation intended to stop your neighbor from cutting down the tree. Absolutely, without question. The main reason it is not extortion is because there is no monetary gain for it, on your part.



> The OED defines extort as: "Obtain (something) by force, threats, or other unfair means." I obtained nothing, I did not threaten, and I did nothing unfair.


Look man, it's OK to threaten a business with not doing business with them anymore. I have no idea why you're being so defensive about this. But you absolutely DID threaten them with termination of your current commercial contract! Absolutely, without question, you did. Pretending you didn't makes me doubt your honesty about everything involving this story. Why are you denying this obvious thing that you obviously did!



> Extortion has to do with a wrongful use of force or power, not exercising your rights and informing. If I had given her an ultimatum that will still have not been extortion. But I didn't, so it most certainly was not.


"Wrongful" is a really fuzzy word here. It is, somewhat, wrongful to hinge something totally unrelated (the new TiVo box) on termination of the old one. I mean, per your own words, it's not a meaningful amount of money. It's principle to you. Fine. But i think there's clearly a case that it's wrongful to leverage a monetary exchange on an outside matter.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> All for what? To punish Tivo? To stick it to them? over part of a monthly fee? That's the $10 I'm talking about. Isn't it $10 or so? It's not like you haven't heard of not canceling something before a period ends and then getting charged for the next period. That has been a fairly common practice from various businesses.


I really don't know how else to say it. Based on this practice and my experience with this transaction they are not a company with whom I want to do business. It had never occurred to me to get rid of my TiVo. I've had one so long it's just how I watch TV. Not that I watch much TV, particularly in the last few months.

I already mentioned Wal-mart. There are many other businesses I won't patronize. It's about principle. Does it inconvenience me to now have TiVo? Probably. Does it inconvenience me and cost me more to not shop at Wal-mart? Absolutely. We all make choices.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Also, I am not sure if SOP is to offer prorated refunds? I know some companies do, and I imagine some companies do not. Cable companies do. ISPs usually do. My cell phone company does. But pre-paid phone companies do not ("My phone broke so I can't use my minutes." "Tough luck! Want a new phone?"). Many service providers will not, if you sign a service contract. Cleaning people, for example, will keep a prepaid appointment you cancel. Apartments will partially refund (well, refund? "Not demand you pay") if you break your lease early. Dentists will charge you a cancellation fee sometimes. Amazon won't refund you a digital movie if you don't watch it, or can't watch it, for whatever reason.

So, no, I do not think there's a SOP here. I think different companies work differently.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

please stop the "extortion" and "threat" comparisons and accusations.

this is an interaction between a paying customer and a service provider, with differences of opinion over policy, during a billing dispute. quit the drama, already.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Darichard said:


> I really don't know how else to say it. Based on this practice and my experience with this transaction they are not a company with whom I want to do business. It had never occurred to me to get rid of my TiVo. I've had one so long it's just how I watch TV. Not that I watch much TV, particularly in the last few months.
> 
> I already mentioned Wal-mart. There are many other businesses I won't patronize. It's about principle. Does it inconvenience me to now have TiVo? Probably. Does it inconvenience me and cost me more to not shop at Wal-mart? Absolutely. We all make choices.


I think we question why this principle is so important? I mean, there are principles that will make me stop doing business with a company... but they have to REALLY make me mad. I don't think "refusing to refund a pre-paid digital service that I am now unable to use" is one of those things. I think it might be the last straw if I was already mad at a company... but if it were a company I already liked, I would just shrug and move on. They have earned too much good will for me to scrap it all over that.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

NorthAlabama said:


> please stop the "extortion" and "threat" comparisons and accusations.
> 
> this is an interaction between a paying customer and a service provider, with differences of opinion over policy, during a billing dispute. quit the drama, already.


It's not drama, it's semantics. If semantics don't matter to you, then by all means, don't engage in the discussion.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Grakthis said:


> It's not drama, it's semantics. If semantics don't matter to you, then by all means, don't engage in the discussion.


no, it's not semantics, not by a long shot, it's an abuse of the english language. any claim that the op is resorting to "extortion" or "threats" is false on its face.

to describe the op's interaction as such, if not an outright lie, is a total disregard of any common sense or the meanings of those words.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

NorthAlabama said:


> no, it's not semantics, not by a long shot, it's an abuse of the english language. any claim that the op is resorting to "extortion" or "threats" is false on its face.
> 
> to describe the op's interaction as such, if not an outright lie, is a total disregard of any common sense and meanings of those words.


"the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. There are a number of branches and subbranches of semantics, including formal semantics, which studies the logical aspects of meaning, such as sense, reference, implication, and logical form, lexical semantics, which studies word meanings and word relations, and conceptual semantics, which studies the cognitive structure of meaning."

I don't know what else to say to you here. It's kind of hilarious that you're wrong about how word meanings is not semantics, which means your wrong about what semantics means, which produces this infinite loop of you being wrong.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> I really don't know how else to say it. Based on this practice and my experience with this transaction they are not a company with whom I want to do business. It had never occurred to me to get rid of my TiVo. I've had one so long it's just how I watch TV. Not that I watch much TV, particularly in the last few months.
> 
> I already mentioned Wal-mart. There are many other businesses I won't patronize. It's about principle. Does it inconvenience me to now have TiVo? Probably. Does it inconvenience me and cost me more to not shop at Wal-mart? Absolutely. We all make choices.


But it doesn't smell like it's about principle because it seems like a pretty petty disagreement to draw your "principle" line over. It's like saying well my friend didn't want to go with me to the new Planet of the Apes movie so he's not my friend any more. I didn't threaten him. He made his choice. And I made mine. We all make choices.

..to me that person isn't very wise or already had an issue with the friend who wouldn't go to the movie with him. It smells like there is a bit more to the story than the person wants to admit. That's how I see you and Tivo.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Grakthis said:


> I don't know what else to say to you here. It's kind of hilarious that you're wrong about how word meanings is not semantics, which means your wrong about what semantics means, which produces this infinite loop of you being wrong.


no, quite the contrary. i'm saying that the original post is being misrepresented by the accusers in its entirety, in an effort to forward some agenda.

the facts don't legitimately support "extortion" or "threats", so there can be no semantics over those characterizations.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> I think we question why this principle is so important?....


Forgive me (and this may get me blasted) but...

Who the heck are you, or the other members of this forum, to question why someone holds a principle as important or not?


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## randyb359 (Jan 3, 2009)

Most of the companies that refund partial months don't really. They pro rate the last month when they send you the bill because they have you pay after you use it. Those companies where you pay in advance don't pro rate and give refunds. For example Netflix, Amazon Prime, prepaid carriers and Tivo.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

btw did anyone see Germany just kill Brazil in the semi-finals last week? If not you missed a bloodbath.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

randyb359 said:


> Most of the companies that refund partial months don't really. They pro rate the last month when they send you the bill because they have you pay after you use it. Those companies where you pay in advance don't pro rate and give refunds. For example Netflix, Amazon Prime, prepaid carriers and Tivo.


good examples. Plus doesn't Tivo load guide data a few weeks in advance? I would think your Tivo could then still record for another 2 weeks after you cancel. I haven't had Tivo in years but they don't have to phone home on a daily or even weekly basis as far as I remember.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

randyb359 said:


> Most of the companies that refund partial months don't really. They pro rate the last month when they send you the bill because they have you pay after you use it.


other than the local electric and water companies, would you please name?

eta: this thread reminds me of an american news channel arguing a u.s. president is secretly from a foreign country and a member of a different religion than he claims.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

Darichard said:


> I went to de-activate my old TiVO. [...] The nice person on chat would not help me. [...] He politely told me he could not help me and that I needed to call.


@Darichard,

TiVo wants you to call on the phone to verify you are the actual user before deactivating a device. It's a security thing. Do you *really* want TiVo (or any other company) to trust a "chat" via the internet?



Darichard said:


> So I call and get a very nice woman to help me.
> *She *starting [...]
> 
> *She *said "ok" and proceeded to help me.
> ...


@Darichard,

I reformatted for emphasis. The customer service rep above *she works* for TiVo but just because she says something doesn't mean it's TiVo policy. Ever notice customer service reps and sales reps always have an answer for any and all questions? Even ones they are clearly not qualified to answer? And because of this they are very often wrong. Have you ever been wrong at work? Of course. So might she.

So you say "Thank you." hang up and call back and get another customer service rep. Be polite and explain in as few words as possible what you want them to do for you and why. I may call back the next day and even ask for a manager if I'm getting nowhere..

Sooner or later someone in customer service will give you what you want as long as it's reasonable. You just have to explain that you wanted to replace your TiVO HD with the new Roamio and instead of one transaction you did it in two transactions. I'm assuming the monthly fee you were paying on the HD is being moved to the Roamio.

*One service rep does not a company make.* If that were true no company would be worth your business.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Diana Collins said:


> ........
> So many aspersions have been cast on Darichard's character and motives in this thread I can't help but comment that if I were a newcomer to this site, I would likely have to think twice about visiting again, and I sure wouldn't want to post anything. Hmm...I guess TiVo may not be the only organization that has characteristics that drive people away.


But hopefully a newcomer would view some of the other threads here, the vast majority of which are, for the most part, constructive and helpful.

Then the question arises: What was different about **this** thread that led to the casting of aspersions you mention? Think about it ......

Are you aware of other significant forums where there **never** is any flaming or casting of aspersions, at least by a few of the members?

Let's suppose a forum member thinks that what another member posts is stupid and illogical. So in a post they say "what you said is stupid and illogical" (and presumably they say why they believe that). Is that casting an aspersion? Or is it just talking frankly? Keep in mind they have not said "you are stupid and illogical", just "what you said is stupid and illogical".


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CloudAtlas said:


> You just have to explain that you wanted to replace your TiVO HD with the new Roamio and instead of one transaction you did it in two transactions. I'm assuming the monthly fee you were paying on the HD is being moved to the Roamio.


Not sure why would would assume that. I'm paying for service on my Roamio and my dead HD for a month.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CloudAtlas said:


> TiVo wants you to call on the phone to verify you are the actual user before deactivating a device. It's a security thing. Do you *really* want TiVo (or any other company) to trust a "chat" via the internet?


How does talking to me help to verify my identity vs. collecting the same information online? I suspect TiVo wants to talk to people who are cancelling so they can try to talk them out of doing so. I could be wrong.

I moved recently. I set up and cancelled my electric and water service without talking to anybody. I moved a huge amount of money between two bank accounts without talking to anybody. I do most of my transactions electronically. TiVo having you call them has nothing to do with security.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

dlfl said:


> But hopefully a newcomer would view some of the other threads here, the vast majority of which are, for the most part, constructive and helpful...


Perhaps...I hope so.

This probably doesn't belong in this thread, but you asked a question, and I feel compelled to answer it. As you can see by my profile, I have been a member here a very long time. I first joined when we got our first DirecTiVo (a series 1) after having had a standalone TiVo attached to a DirecTV STB for about a year. When we upgraded to HD, there was no HD option from TiVo yet so we converted to DirecTV DVRs. So, I have not been active here for several years (since we deactivated our last DirecTiVo about 3 or 4 years ago). Recently we switched to Verizon FiOS and so are back to being a TiVo family. I have been active here again for about a month.

Now, to your question regarding what was different about this post...

Unfortunately, I have, in the month I have been back, seen several cases of posts getting EXACTLY the same results we have seen here. If someone dares to criticize TiVo in almost anyway, they are attacked. The only difference is that Darichard has come back, time and again, to defend himself. Most others simple walk away. I myself have been blasted in a thread. IMO the "TiVo Community" has shrunk to the point that it is dominated by the fanboys. In other forums I have participated in (such as DBSTalk) there are, of course, the same sorts of ardent supporters that defend their favored provider, as well as a core of equally ardent critics. The difference is that at those other sites there are a sizable group of impartial members that will productively engage in conversation, try to understand and help the original poster, rather than constantly tell him or her that they are wrong. IMO, TiVo Community is no longer the place I remember.

Do I agree that Darichard should get a refund? No, I don't. The terms of TiVo monthly service are clearly spelled out, and TiVo has every right to run their company as they see fit. Do I understand his frustration and his feeling ill treated? Yes, I do. I stayed out of this discussion up until the last day or so because I expected it to peter out on its own. But Darichard has not walked away, and I just couldn't stand by any longer watching people tell him he was wrong for voicing his opinion that TiVo's policy, and apparent inflexibility for a long time customer, in a word, stinks. I think it stinks too. IMO it is yet another reason to shun monthly service like the plague.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Darichard said:


> ...I suspect TiVo wants to talk to people who are cancelling so they can try to talk them out of doing so...


This.

They don't worry about security when you are spending money, only when you want to stop spending it.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

Diana Collins said:


> Unfortunately, I have, in the month I have been back, seen several cases of posts getting EXACTLY the same results we have seen here. If someone dares to criticize TiVo in almost anyway, they are attacked. The only difference is that Darichard has come back, time and again, to defend himself. Most others simple walk away. I myself have been blasted in a thread. IMO the "TiVo Community" has shrunk to the point that it is dominated by the fanboys. In other forums I have participated in (such as DBSTalk) there are, of course, the same sorts of ardent supporters that defend their favored provider, as well as a core of equally ardent critics. The difference is that at those other sites there are a sizable group of impartial members that will productively engage in conversation, try to understand and help the original poster, rather than constantly tell him or her that they are wrong. IMO, TiVo Community is no longer the place I remember.


When I subscribed to Dish, I used to visit DBSTalk. The Tivo forums do have one advantage over them. And that is, some of the biggest fanboys are also forum moderators. If you were in the Dish forum and had a complaint about Dish, some moderators would "lead the charge" against you. Same thing in the DirecTV forums. You could never win an argument against some of the diehards because you would get moderated for going too far. At least here the moderators exhibit non-bias behavior.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Darichard said:


> ........ It's not the money that's the issue for me. It could be $2 or it could be $50. What kind of idiotic company thinks it's reasonable to charge a customer for service they can't possibly use? If I hadn't activated a new TiVo I could almost, maybe, kinda see their point. And I told her this.
> 
> The Roamio looks like a very nice device. I've enjoyed every TiVo I've ever had. I just don't think this is a company I want to do business with. I'll be exercising my 30-day return policy on the service and will return my device.





Diana Collins said:


> .......
> Unfortunately, I have, in the month I have been back, seen several cases of posts getting EXACTLY the same results we have seen here. If someone dares to criticize TiVo in almost anyway, they are attacked. The only difference is that Darichard has come back, time and again, to defend himself. Most others simple walk away. I myself have been blasted in a thread. IMO the "TiVo Community" has shrunk to the point that it is dominated by the fanboys. In other forums I have participated in (such as DBSTalk) there are, of course, the same sorts of ardent supporters that defend their favored provider, as well as a core of equally ardent critics. The difference is that at those other sites there are a sizable group of impartial members that will productively engage in conversation, try to understand and help the original poster, rather than constantly tell him or her that they are wrong. IMO, TiVo Community is no longer the place I remember.
> ........


I'm not sure what your definition of a "sizable group" is but there is a lot of help being provided on this forum, particularly when a poster asks for help rather than just complains and (IMO) whines like this OP did.

Although many of us (who provide help on many occasions) might agree that Tivo's billing policies and support are flawed, I think we were mainly reacting to the OP cutting off his nose to spite his face, i.e., denying himself the benefits of owning a Roamio because of what seems to us like a minor complaint. He's entitled to have that principle and let it dominate his decisions but I think our disapproval of that is not an unreasonable reaction, and is not an example of a generally deplorable behavior on this forum. There may be other threads that do comprise such examples but as I pointed out before they are small in number compared to good threads.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

randyb359 said:


> Most of the companies that refund partial months don't really. They pro rate the last month when they send you the bill because they have you pay after you use it. Those companies where you pay in advance don't pro rate and give refunds. For example Netflix, Amazon Prime, prepaid carriers and Tivo.


I know Netflix does not give refunds, but if you do cancel you do get till the end of your pre-pay to use the service, each co has their own set of T&C so if one wants to use any co. and cares about what T&C that co. is using,* read them.* For me, if the money amount is small I don't take the time to read the T&C, I just find out what they are when I have to make a change, but if was leasing a car I sure would do the reading of the T&C on the lease.

As to extortion, in no way did the OP try to extort TiVo into giving him what he wanted, if I told Best Buy that I will not purchase this HDTV unless they gave my this great video camera for free, it would Best Buy decision as to what they wanted to do, no extortion, just me negotiating with Best Buy.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

dlfl said:


> I'm not sure what your definition of a "sizable group" is but there is a lot of help being provided on this forum, particularly when a poster asks for help rather than just complains and (IMO) whines like this OP did.
> 
> Although many of us (who provide help on many occasions) might agree that Tivo's billing policies and support are flawed, I think we were mainly reacting to the OP cutting off his nose to spite his face, i.e., denying himself the benefits of owning a Roamio because of what seems to us like a minor complaint. He's entitled to have that principle and let it dominate his decisions but I think our disapproval of that is not an unreasonable reaction, and is not an example of a generally deplorable behavior on this forum. There may be other threads that do comprise such examples but as I pointed out before they are small in number compared to good threads.


This. And I don't own a Tivo.

It's nothing to do with dumping Tivo. It's the reason. It comes across as petty.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

moedaman said:


> When I subscribed to Dish, I used to visit DBSTalk. The Tivo forums do have one advantage over them. And that is, some of the biggest fanboys are also forum moderators. If you were in the Dish forum and had a complaint about Dish, some moderators would "lead the charge" against you. Same thing in the DirecTV forums. You could never win an argument against some of the diehards because you would get moderated for going too far. At least here the moderators exhibit non-bias behavior.


I haven't been a Dish customer since 2001 and so had no real reason to visit the Dish Network part of DBSTalk. There are about 3 or 4 DirecTV customers for every Dish customer on that forum, so if I wanted Dish info, I'd go to SatelliteGuys (where the Dish/DirecTv ratio is the inverse of DBSTalk). In any event, my experience has been that the DBSTalk moderators (in the DirecTV forums at least) are very proactive in reminding people that they should discuss the topic, not each other. This is, IMO, where this thread went wrong...too many posts were focused on the OP's opinions and actions rather than on the policy he was bringing up.

I was a moderator on the original satellite TV forum (DBSDish) and the owner of DBSForums for several years. I understand the tightrope moderators walk in trying to balance the need to keep threads on topic, and not wanted to stifle discussion. It is never easy. But I will say that I have never, in the 17 years I have been involved with Internet forums, been blasted the way I was here for a innocuous comment (it was so extreme I got a couple of PMs from other users apologizing for the member that blasted me - really the only reason I am still here).

There is no question that there is an abundance of information here...when the Verizon installer couldn't get my Cablecards paired to my Roamios it was information I found through a search here that allowed me to give him input that got them paired. But honestly, I have to say that in the short space of a month I have seen several cases of fanboys slamming people who criticize TiVo, members dismissing suggestions for new features or modifications of existing ones for no other reason than that they wouldn't use it (see the HDMI-CEC thread for example) and generally treating this place like a private club.

Maybe I'm just being sensitive, and perhaps most visitors here think everything is just fine. But my experience so far is such that I think twice or even thrice before posting anything here, and reread and edit every post so as to be careful not to raise the ire of the Fanboys. Many times I have written responses and then decided not to post, because I know the result will be unproductive.

In any event, I have said my piece about this thread and TC in general, so I'll be on my way.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

I'm done with this thread. I can't even figure out why I followed it this far...


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

nooneuknow said:


> I'm done with this thread. I can't even figure out why I followed it this far...


Masochism?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

dlfl said:


> ...particularly when a poster asks for help rather than just complains and (IMO) whines like this OP did.
> 
> snip
> 
> the OP cutting off his nose to spite his face, i.e., denying himself the benefits of owning a Roamio because of what seems to us like a minor complaint. He's entitled to have that principle and let it dominate his decisions but I think our disapproval of that is not an unreasonable reaction


So to be clear, the reaction here is because most of you think I'm a whiner or because I'm doing myself a disservice? Another person who is concerned for my well being and doesn't want me to be without a TiVo.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Grakthis said:


> It's not drama, it's semantics. If semantics don't matter to you, then by all means, don't engage in the discussion.


You must have been beaten a lot in your high school debate team. Do you badger everyone in your life like this or only on the TiVo forum? I bet you're a real blast at parties.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

No. You claim to have told the CSR that you will return your new box considering the policy to charge you according to the agreement. Later, you claim to not have demanded $10 in a service refund. But, the appearance is that IF the CSR were to have waived the charge you would have kept the box. Is that not the case? OR, you were "done" with Tivo just because the policy in the agreement existed at all?

So, to me and others, your arguments appear on both sides of the fence.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

jrtroo said:


> No. You claim to have told the CSR that you will return your new box considering the policy to charge you according to the agreement. Later, you claim to not have demanded $10 in a service refund. But, the appearance is that IF the CSR were to have waived the charge you would have kept the box. Is that not the case? OR, you were "done" with Tivo just because the policy in the agreement existed at all?
> 
> So, to me and others, your arguments appear on both sides of the fence.


Both are true. I did tell her I was likely returning the box. I never said nor implied "unless you refund my money." It's a policy and/or customer service issue for me.

I could be wrong here, but you and others seem to be having a hard time with me putting principles first. The "cutting off your nose..." comments are effectively saying "but you're losing something!" I'm well aware of that. TiVo has always been a awesome product. Not perfect, but way ahead of everybody else. As a tech guy and a software engineer I marvel at how they make the complex look so simple. It's a role-model product for usability.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

NorthAlabama said:


> no, quite the contrary. i'm saying that the original post is being misrepresented by the accusers in its entirety, in an effort to forward some agenda.
> 
> the facts don't legitimately support "extortion" or "threats", so there can be no semantics over those characterizations.


What agenda do I have? I've already supported the OPs right to his position, I'm sympathetic to his complaint, I've agreed it's not an ideal business practice... so what is my agenda? My only agenda is "be honest to the English language and what words mean."

The facts absolutely, unquestionably, support the actual definition of threats and extortion. Extortion carries a lot of baggage, but that baggage is connotational, not denotational. And the correct thing to do when confronted with those denotations is go "Ok, well, I guess technically it is, but you and I both know that doesn't make it wrong." And then we'd all go "sure." And that would be the end of it.

But you can't argue against the definitions of those words. That's the wrong way to approach a semantic problem where connotation and denotation don't line up the way you want to. Arguing the meanings of the words just makes you wrong AGAIN.

Also, denying what 'semantics' means does too. So don't do that either.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Diana Collins said:


> Forgive me (and this may get me blasted) but...
> 
> Who the heck are you, or the other members of this forum, to question why someone holds a principle as important or not?


If you come into a thread to discuss how mad you are about a principle, you have opened the door to people asking you about your principle.

This notion that people have a "right" to their opinions and views and we are all wrong to question those opinions and views is probably the most asinine thing to come out of the internet era. I usually hear it from old people. So I'm going to assume you're old.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> good examples. Plus doesn't Tivo load guide data a few weeks in advance? I would think your Tivo could then still record for another 2 weeks after you cancel. I haven't had Tivo in years but they don't have to phone home on a daily or even weekly basis as far as I remember.


Yeah, you can unplug your TiVo and it keeps running for a few weeks. I don't remember how long.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

lessd said:


> As to extortion, in no way did the OP try to extort TiVo into giving him what he wanted, if I told Best Buy that I will not purchase this HDTV unless they gave my this great video camera for free, it would Best Buy decision as to what they wanted to do, no extortion, just me negotiating with Best Buy.


You're right. That's not extortion, because you haven't bought the Camera yet.

If you bought the camera, then demanded they give you a refund on the price of the camera as part of the purchase of the TV, or else you're going to return the camera, then that is. The key difference is the RETURN of an already completed exchange.

"It would be a shame if something happened to this purchase I already made."


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

mschnebly said:


> You must have been beaten a lot in your high school debate team. Do you badger everyone in your life like this or only on the TiVo forum? I bet you're a real blast at parties.


"Oh yeah, well, I bet you were a nerd in high school, snort snort snort"

Look how cowed I am! You've shamed me with your brilliant insults!

edit: man, this is too many posts in a row, but what are you gonna do? People responded to me.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Grakthis said:


> What agenda do I have? I've already supported the OPs right to his position, I'm sympathetic to his complaint, I've agreed it's not an ideal business practice... so what is my agenda? My only agenda is "be honest to the English language and what words mean."
> 
> The facts absolutely, unquestionably, support the actual definition of threats and extortion. Extortion carries a lot of baggage, but that baggage is connotational, not denotational. And the correct thing to do when confronted with those denotations is go "Ok, well, I guess technically it is, but you and I both know that doesn't make it wrong." And then we'd all go "sure." And that would be the end of it.
> 
> ...


is that a threat?  oh, and semantics...


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Darichard said:


> Both are true.


You are still not being clear here. Which "both" do you mean? My question was an either/or, "both" does not make sense on the surface, thus your statements still straddle both sides of the fence. So, you were going to keep the new box with a waived fee AND were "done" with Tivo due to the existence of the billing policy in the T&Cs?

I don't care, really, and did not put any such valuation in my message. You seem confused of what the others are saying. I'm simply explaining why your discussion points are confusing and are being interpreted in so many different ways by others.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> You're right. That's not extortion, because you haven't bought the Camera yet.
> 
> If you bought the camera, then demanded they give you a refund on the price of the camera as part of the purchase of the TV, or else you're going to return the camera, then that is. The key difference is the RETURN of an already completed exchange.
> 
> "It would be a shame if something happened to this purchase I already made."


Is extortion itself illegal, when does any action become extortion, I know* I will kill your (you name it) if you don't do as I want *is illegal extortion, but to just return something,  could be your are correct as I never though about it before this Thread.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> Both are true. I did tell her I was likely returning the box. I never said nor implied "unless you refund my money." It's a policy and/or customer service issue for me.


lol. I am not sure it is possible to mention you are likely to return your new tivo after asking for (and not getting) a pro-rated refund of your monthly fee from your old tivo without anything being "implied."



Darichard said:


> I could be wrong here, but you and others seem to be having a hard time with me putting principles first. The "cutting off your nose..." comments are effectively saying "but you're losing something!" I'm well aware of that. TiVo has always been a awesome product. Not perfect, but way ahead of everybody else. As a tech guy and a software engineer I marvel at how they make the complex look so simple. It's a role-model product for usability.


"Cutting off the nose to spite the face is an expression used to describe a needlessly self-destructive over-reaction to a problem."

""Don't cut off your nose to spite your face" is a warning against acting out of pique, or against pursuing revenge in a way that would damage oneself more than the object of one's anger."


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

NorthAlabama said:


> is that a threat?  oh, and semantics...


Do you even speak english or are you just stringing words together and hoping for the best?


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

lessd said:


> Is extortion itself illegal, when does any action become extortion, I know* I will kill your (you name it) if you don't do as I want *is illegal extortion, but to just return something,  could be your are correct as I never though about it before this Thread.


Yeah, there's definitely an issue when a dictionary word becomes a legal word.

Like, "person." You and I think of person meaning human being, right? But in the law, because of how congress works, person includes business entities too! Including companies. This clouds common usage and dictionary usage.

I addressed this and the difficulties it causes way back in my first post...



> Of course, extortion is a legal term, right? So we don't apply it to non-legal matters except as an illustration of the principal, not as the actual crime. But as an illustration of the idea, what you did was extortion.


Sort of like how "conspiracy" is a crime, right? But it requires specific rules... you can't be conspiring to trick you friend into eating a bug. You have to be conspiring to commit a crime. But if I accused you of conspiring when you were just pulling a prank, you might get defensive, and say "we weren't doing anything wrong!" Because the legal conspiracy has altered our connotation of the word conspiracy, which does not require criminal activity.

Word usage is hard. And sometimes things fit definitions that don't make sense or surprise us.

But in a nut shell, if you threaten an existing THING in order to obtain a benefit that is unrelated to that thing, this is a form of extortion. After that, you're just debating the morality and legality of this example.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Grakthis said:


> Do you even speak english or are you just stringing words together and hoping for the best?


i speak the language much better than you comprehend the language.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> lol. I am not sure it is possible to mention you are likely to return your new tivo after asking for (and not getting) a pro-rated refund of your monthly fee from your old tivo without anything being "implied."


For about the 10th time, I never asked for a refund. I don't know why you're insisting this happened. I have little doubt I could have gotten her to give me credit for the month of HD, or that I could have asked for a supervisor and gotten it. I'm not afraid to ask and I know how to negotiate. But I didn't. Say it with me now... it's not about the money. If it were about the money I would have asked for it.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Darichard said:


> For about the 10th time, I never asked for a refund.


exactly. this is why the claims and arguments accusing you of "extortion" and "threats" are baseless, and any argument over over semantics is erroneous.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

Darichard said:


> Not sure why would would assume that. I'm paying for service on my Roamio and my dead HD for a month.


I assumed that because your HD is broken and is an old piece of crap compared to the new Roamio. And that the monthly fee on the HD would be cheaper than a new monthly fee on the Roamio so you'd want to move it. There are some people paying real low monthly fees on their Roamios this way,

I also thought you wanted to get out of paying the last months monthly fee on the HD and that's how you would do it.

At this point it seems you just want to argue and vent. And honestly I have a feeling you had the same annoying confrontational attitude on the phone and the customer service rep said F this guy. And then you responded in the way male control freaks do when they get frustrated by lack of control. They childishly lash out at the unfair world.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

*Boy*; does this Thread have legs


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> For about the 10th time, I never asked for a refund. I don't know why you're insisting this happened. I have little doubt I could have gotten her to give me credit for the month of HD, or that I could have asked for a supervisor and gotten it. I'm not afraid to ask and I know how to negotiate. But I didn't. Say it with me now... it's not about the money. If it were about the money I would have asked for it.


You're splitting hairs. You wrote the following....

"_She said "ok" and proceeded to help me. *She informed me that I would be billed for the HD through the end of the month.* I was calling on the 2nd of the month. She told me that's their policy. Hmmmm...

*So I explained to her* that I've had TiVos for 13 years. I explained that as soon as I noticed my HD was dead I immediately bought and activated a new TiVo. I explained that I had no idea when my HD died, as I haven't used it in about 2 months. It could have been dead for most of this time. No matter - I'm not asking for anything back. The unit is dead. I have a new one that's already activated.

*She was completely unemphatic.* She was polite, but really didn't care. *When I told her this was likely going to result in me returning my Roamio, she seemed equally unconcerned. "*_

If that isn't asking for a pro-rated refund of your last months' fee and then threatening to cancel if you don't get it then I don't know what is. IT's just a passive-aggressive way of doing it.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CloudAtlas said:


> I assumed that because your HD is broken and is an old piece of crap compared to the new Roamio. And that the monthly fee on the HD would be cheaper than a new monthly fee on the Roamio so you'd want to move it. There are some people paying real low monthly fees on their Roamios this way,


Of course I would have preferred to move it. I saw no way to do this online. They TiVo rep never suggested it. I asked and was told it wasn't possible. I don't think I asked specifically to move it, but I questioned the overall process when moving to a new TiVo. Could be the option is there and I missed it. It was certainly not mentioned to me.

I believe my monthly is the same. I'd have to double check.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

I see it now. I clearly extorted them. I can be done with the debate about the E word.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Darichard said:


> I see it now. I clearly extorted them. I can be done with the debate about the E word.


You will be back!!!!!!!!


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends. Some people started reading it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue posting here forever, just because this is the thread that never ends ...


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Darichard said:


> I see it now. I clearly extorted them. I can be done with the debate about the E word.


yes, your disconnect "threat" to tivo was obviously a failed "extortion" attempt - at minimum, unsuccessful coercion of a company with over $400 million in annual revenue. you should feel ashamed.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> It's a policy and/or customer service issue for me.


If you have a problem with the policy, why did you ever subscribe to Tivo service in the first place knowing what happens upon cancellation?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> I see it now. I clearly extorted them. I can be done with the debate about the E word.


YOu're killing us. ....Oh whoops. I mean not literally. I mean you didn't stab me or shoot me. I'm still here. I'm breathing. Everyone else is too I think.

And in no way did you just do anything illegal. I didn't mean that. ....


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

scandia101 said:


> If you have a problem with the policy, why did you ever subscribe to Tivo service in the first place knowing what happens upon cancellation?


He didn't know the specific details. Who reads those long service agreements word for word?


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> He didn't know the specific details. Who reads those long service agreements word for word?


And that's his problem, not Tivos.
Ignorance is no excuse.

But I do want him to answer the question.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

NorthAlabama said:


> i speak the language much better than you comprehend the language.


So, there's a rule in communication. If you say something, and your audience doesn't understand it, it's your fault for not framing the message in a way the audience understands.

So take another swing at it. What were you TRYING to say?


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Darichard said:


> I see it now. I clearly extorted them. I can be done with the debate about the E word.


See? Easy.

It doesn't change anything, of course. What you did is not right or wrong based on the word extortion.

It's right or wrong because, well, the principle of what TiVo did matters to you. If it matters to you, what you did was right. If it doesn't, what you did was wrong.

So we're back to my original question... why does this principle matter so much? I'm not saying it shouldn't, I'm just trying to understand why.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

scandia101 said:


> And that's his problem, not Tivos.
> Ignorance is no excuse.
> 
> But I do want him to answer the question.


He answered it earlier in the thread. I remembered so I replied.

There probably isn't much that hasn't been covered at this point. lol.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I hope this thread is renewed for a second season. I need another 1st world problem and overreaction to dissect.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> I hope this thread is renewed for a second season. I need another 1st world problem and overreaction to dissect.


Well, they missed their chance to kill it by putting the posts up out of order, so maybe it'll be back.

Unless they move it to a different time slot, then there's no telling what might happen.

Although I suppose it could continue as a podcast.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

randyb359 said:


> Most of the companies that refund partial months don't really. They pro rate the last month when they send you the bill because they have you pay after you use it. Those companies where you pay in advance don't pro rate and give refunds. For example Netflix, Amazon Prime, prepaid carriers and Tivo.





trip1eX said:


> He answered it earlier in the thread. I remembered so I replied.
> 
> There probably isn't much that hasn't been covered at this point. lol.



That's not the answer to the question


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> That's not the answer to the question


You want the answer to what? Why I subscribed in the first place? Because I wanted a TiVo.

As others have mentioned, I really didn't read the fine print. But that's irrelevant to my argument. Let's assume I had read it and fully understood it. It's still bad form on TiVo's part and just terrible customer service. They have every right to enforce the policy. I have every right to say I don't want to do business with them.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Darichard said:


> You want the answer to what? Why I subscribed in the first place? Because I wanted a TiVo.
> 
> As others have mentioned, I really didn't read the fine print. But that's irrelevant to my argument. Let's assume I had read it and fully understood it. It's still bad form on TiVo's part and just terrible customer service. They have every right to enforce the policy. I have every right to say I don't want to do business with them.


OK! * Let's assume I had read it and fully understood it.* now answer the question; would you the OP have purchased a TiVo in the first place having that knowledge about how TiVo does business???.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

lessd said:


> OK! * Let's assume I had read it and fully understood it.* now answer the question; would you have purchased a TiVo in the first place having that knowledge about how TiVo does business???.


I would either purchase a used TiVo that can record without TiVo service or no TiVo at all.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> You want the answer to what? Why I subscribed in the first place? Because I wanted a TiVo.
> 
> As others have mentioned, I really didn't read the fine print. But that's irrelevant to my argument. Let's assume I had read it and fully understood it. It's still bad form on TiVo's part and just terrible customer service. They have every right to enforce the policy. I have every right to say I don't want to do business with them.


Why you subscribed w/o knowing what happens at the back end considering that it's so damn important to you that you don't lose 89 cents.

Yes, it is relevant, very relevant. You have no room to complain when it's your own fault that you didn't know and understand the terms of your contract. It makes no sense to blame Tivo for your ignorance.

Even worse is that you admit that you've done nothing to get the refund you think you're entitled to.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

lessd said:


> OK! * Let's assume I had read it and fully understood it.* now answer the question; would you have purchased a TiVo in the first place having that knowledge about how TiVo does business???.


If *you* had read and understood it has no bearing on what *I* would do.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> Why you subscribed w/o knowing what happens at the back end considering that it's so damn important to you that you don't lose 89 cents.
> 
> Yes, it is relevant, very relevant. You have no room to complain when it's your own fault that you didn't know and understand the terms of your contract. It makes no sense to blame Tivo for your ignorance.
> 
> Even worse is that you admit that you've done nothing to get the refund you think you're entitled to.


Regardless of what I agreed to, TiVo charging me for unit that's dead when I have a replacement up and running makes no sense. Because they can do it doesn't mean they should. I understand that you don't believe TiVo has done anything wrong.

Years ago I had a T-mobile phone. The terms of the contract said they could charge me $200 for terminating my contract early. I was paying ~$30 per month for service. With about 3 months left to I upgraded my phone and stayed with T-mobile. Could they have charged me $200? Yes. Did they? Of course not. It would have been bad business and just silly.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> Regardless of what I agreed to,


Now you say that you shouldn't be obligated to your contracts? What makes you special?



> TiVo charging me for unit that's dead when I have a replacement up and running makes no sense. Because they can do it doesn't mean they should. I understand that you don't believe TiVo has done anything wrong.


Because they haven't done anything wrong and as you've stated, you've never even asked for any compensation yet Tivo is a terrible monster for not doing what you didn't ask for.



> Years ago I had a T-mobile phone. The terms of the contract said they could charge me $200 for terminating my contract early. I was paying ~$30 per month for service. With about 3 months left to I upgraded my phone and stayed with T-mobile. Could they have charged me $200? Yes. Did they? Of course not. It would have been bad business and just silly.


An ETF is an entirely different thing.
This is just another entitlement argument. Other companies give to me therefore I'm entitled to be given to by Tivo.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Darichard said:


> Regardless of what I agreed to, TiVo charging me for unit that's dead when I have a replacement up and running makes no sense. Because they can do it doesn't mean they should. I understand that you don't believe TiVo has done anything wrong.
> 
> Years ago I had a T-mobile phone. The terms of the contract said they could charge me $200 for terminating my contract early. I was paying ~$30 per month for service. With about 3 months left to I upgraded my phone and stayed with T-mobile. Could they have charged me $200? Yes. Did they? Of course not. It would have been bad business and just silly.


Actually, TMobile had a policy that they would allow you to re-up a contract with 3 months left. Sprint's policy was 1. They have both since dropped those policies, FYI.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

Just leave. This whole thing reminds me of a disgruntled Dish user leaving for Directv or vica versa. They start a thread and never leave.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> Now you say that you shouldn't be obligated to your contracts? What makes you special?


I don't think I'm entitled. If I did, I would have asked for it. Already had the entitlement discussion - don't want to rehash it. You can see these further up the thread.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> Actually, TMobile had a policy that they would allow you to re-up a contract with 3 months left. Sprint's policy was 1. They have both since dropped those policies, FYI.


I don't believe they did when I changed phones (2006 or so). I recall asking if I needed to keep paying on the old phone to avoid the $200 change and they told me it wasn't necessary.

I get the point made by many that TiVo didn't do anything wrong. My opinion is that they didn't do what was right. Those two are not the same.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Darichard said:


> I don't think I'm entitled. If I did, I would have asked for it. Already had the entitlement discussion - don't want to rehash it. You can see these further up the thread.


You still haven't explained your attachment to this principle of not paying for service for broken hardware and why this principle is so important.

Like, if your cell phone breaks, should t-mobile cancel your service free of charge?


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Grakthis said:


> Like, if your cell phone breaks, should t-mobile cancel your service free of charge?


if your cell phone breaks, you don't have to cancel service, you get a new phone, and the existing service continues with the new phone, pre-paid or contract. this is what should have happened with tivo service.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

NorthAlabama said:


> if your cell phone breaks, you don't have to cancel service, you get a new phone, and the existing service continues with the new phone, pre-paid or contract. this is what should have happened with tivo service.


And does happen with TiVo service. Why do you think it doesn't? It doesn't apply to the OP because he chose not to go that route.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

CrispyCritter said:


> And does happen with TiVo service. Why do you think it doesn't? It doesn't apply to the OP because he chose not to go that route.


then why can't it be corrected by tivo?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

scandia101 said:


> If *you* had read and understood it has no bearing on what *I* would do.


The part in the black was a quote from the OP, I was asking the OP if in advance he had known how TiVo did business would he have purchased a TiVo, had nothing to do with you or me. See post #207 before you answer, if you answer.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> then why can't it be corrected by tivo?


It can be. The OP even states he could call them back up and get it corrected.

It isn't about the money.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

NorthAlabama said:


> then why can't it be corrected by tivo?


Because he didn't want to transfer service, he wanted the money from canceling service. If you read his first post (at a time where he had no idea of TiVo policy), it was all about the money. He's changed his mind about things several times since, as he discovered the multiple ways he was wrong, but he wanted a refund.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

All these panties twisted all up in a wad is just plain AWESOME! This place is more fun that almost any other place on the web! 
Watching folks get all keyed up over semantics is almost as much fun as
a forum full of spelling Nazis.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

glad you're enjoying, and thanks for the contribution?


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Darichard said:


> Regardless of what I agreed to, TiVo charging me for unit that's dead when I have a replacement up and running makes no sense. Because they can do it doesn't mean they should. I understand that you don't believe TiVo has done anything wrong.


I'd call TiVo back and ask to speak to a supervisor. You may be passing judgement on TiVo as a whole based on what one CSR did. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they may give you exactly what you asked for, if you ask the right person.

Can you take a few minutes and try it and report back? You might be surprised at what people will do if you ask them nicely.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> You still haven't explained your attachment to this principle of not paying for service for broken hardware and why this principle is so important.
> 
> Like, if your cell phone breaks, should t-mobile cancel your service free of charge?


Let me ask you a similar question: your phone breaks and you get a new T-mobile one to replace it. Is is reasonable for T-mobile to charge you for both?


----------



## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> It can be. The OP even states he could call them back up and get it corrected.
> 
> It isn't about the money.


I wouldn't say corrected. I'm guessing I could call and badger them into giving me a refund on service for the dead TiVo.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Because he didn't want to transfer service, he wanted the money from canceling service. If you read his first post (at a time where he had no idea of TiVo policy), it was all about the money. He's changed his mind about things several times since, as he discovered the multiple ways he was wrong, but he wanted a refund.


Just to clarify, despite me saying it's not about the money multiple times, you're sure it's about the money for me. Is that right?


----------



## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

bareyb said:


> I'd call TiVo back and ask to speak to a supervisor. You may be passing judgement on TiVo as a whole based on what one CSR did. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they may give you exactly what you asked for, if you ask the right person.
> 
> Can you take a few minutes and try it and report back? You might be surprised at what people will do if you ask them nicely.





Darichard said:


> I wouldn't say corrected. I'm guessing I could call and badger them into giving me a refund on service for the dead TiVo.


Again. You are basing all of this on the actions of one CSR. You know how that goes... There are good ones and bad ones. How about instead of badgering them, you call back, ask to speak to a supervisor and simply explain the situation, how you feel about it, and ask them if they can waive the fees since you have already purchased a new Roamio? The people I've talked to at TiVo have been extremely accommodating.


----------



## DancyMunchkin (Jul 7, 2014)

Darichard said:


> I just don't think this is a company I want to do business with. I'll be exercising my 30-day return policy on the service and will return my device.
> 
> MythTV or Windows Media Center won't be a TiVO, but it'll be good enough.


You've made it clear you're already done with Tivo.

Have you set a date when you will be done with this forum?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

A few days ago in Post #186:



Darichard said:


> I have little doubt I could have gotten her to give me credit for the month of HD, or that I could have asked for a supervisor and gotten it. I'm not afraid to ask and I know how to negotiate.


Me, today, paraphrasing you:



trip1eX said:


> It can be. The OP even states he could call them back up and get it corrected.


You today in response



Darichard said:


> I wouldn't say corrected. I'm guessing I could call and badger them into giving me a refund on service for the dead TiVo.


Your Indian name is SplitHairs right?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Your Indian name is SplitHairs right?


Overlooking the offensive aspect of your reply, no.

By corrected I assume you mean resolved. It's a policy issue, not a money issue. What I meant was that I could probably solve the money problem. I don't imagine I could solve the policy problem. That's what I was trying to say.

In case you haven't noticed, you guys are all over me about my intent. I'm being accused of being all of over the place and am trying to be clear and concise.

My concern was that if I'd agreed with you I would have gotten a bunch of "ah ha! It was about the money" replies. So no, I don't think I'm splitting hairs, especially given the context. Does that help?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> Overlooking the offense aspect of your, reply, no.
> By corrected I assume you mean resolved. It's a policy issue, not a money issue. What I meant was that I could probably solve the money problem. I don't imagine I could solve the policy problem. That's what I was trying to say.
> 
> In case you haven't noticed, you guys are all over me about my intent. I'm being accused of being all of over the place and am trying to be clear and concise.
> ...


If you follow the conversation I merely said that you said you could get your money back if you wanted to, but that it isn't about the money (according to you.) No one was thinking you could wave a wand and change their policy with a phone call.

I don't think you are picking up on the gist of what people are saying. You can't see the forest for the trees sort of problem.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I thought the OP was done with TiVo? This thread is 235 posts long now.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> And my post ended with "It isn't about the money" and yet you thought if you agreed with my post that someone might get the impression that you think "it's about the money???"


I'm apparently not following and don't want to debate you. I'm sure you are correct.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> I'm apparently not following and don't want to debate you. I'm sure you are correct.


I wouldn't use the word correct, but ...

I have to know...

where does your principle begin and end here? If you had called on the 28th of July would you still have returned your new Tivo? How about the 30th of July?

Or what if the monthly fee was $1/month? And you called on the same day you originally did on July 2nd? Do you still hold to your principle and return your new Tivo?

IT's not about the money right? So in each case you would return your new Tivo right?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> where does your principle begin and end here? If you had called on the 28th of July would you still have returned your new Tivo? How about the 30th of July?
> 
> Or what if the monthly fee was $1/month? And you called on the same day you originally did on July 2nd? Do you still hold to your principle and return your new Tivo?
> 
> IT's not about the money right? So in each case you would return your new Tivo right?


I honestly don't know if you're being intentionally argumentative, but it's starting to seem so. The money doesn't matter. Charging people for service on a product that was replaced with a newer one that's getting the same service is wrong. It's not a company I want to patronize.

I really don't know what I can do to make it any more clear.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Darichard said:


> I honestly don't know if you're being intentionally argumentative, but it's starting to seem so. The money doesn't matter. Charging people for service on a product that was replaced with a newer one that's getting the same service is wrong. It's not a company I want to patronize.
> 
> I really don't know what I can do to make it any more clear.


I will ask you (the OP) again, if you had read TiVo T&C before you purchased your first TiVo and understood TiVo does not give pro rated service would you have still purchased your first TiVo??? Just answer that one question for me.


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## DancyMunchkin (Jul 7, 2014)

Darichard said:


> I really don't know what I can do to make it any more clear.


My previous question was clear, since you no longer have a *Tivo*, When are you leaving this *Tivo* Community forum?

It's been over 2 weeks since you started this 'Goodbye Tivo' thread. How long does it take you to find the door?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

lessd said:


> I will ask you (the OP) again, if you had read TiVo T&C before you purchased your first TiVo and understood TiVo does not give pro rated service would you have still purchased your first TiVo??? Just answer that one question for me.


I believe I've already answered. I'm sure I would have.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> I honestly don't know if you're being intentionally argumentative, but it's starting to seem so. The money doesn't matter. Charging people for service on a product that was replaced with a newer one that's getting the same service is wrong. It's not a company I want to patronize.
> 
> I really don't know what I can do to make it any more clear.


It's an easy question. You say it is about principle so I ask, what if you happened to call towards the end of the month instead of the beginning and were only double-charged for 1-2 days of service instead of 29 days. Would you still be returning your new Tivo? Yes or no?

..unless you plead the fifth.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> I wouldn't say corrected. I'm guessing I could call and badger them into giving me a refund on service for the dead TiVo.


Or you could start by just simply asking for what you want rather than expecting them to automatically change the terms of your service agreement.


----------



## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> I honestly don't know if you're being intentionally argumentative, but it's starting to seem so. The money doesn't matter. Charging people for service on a product that was replaced with a newer one that's getting the same service is wrong. It's not a company I want to patronize.
> 
> I really don't know what I can do to make it any more clear.


Bull crap. If you knowingly called to cancel on day 29 of your billing period, you would not have any issue with not getting a $0.45 refund or the policy that says they get to keep the $0.45.

It's also bullcrap that you expect tivo to apply a partial month of service that you simply chose not to use, to an existing subscription that is billed at a higher rate.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> It's an easy question. You say it is about principle so I ask, what if you happened to call towards the end of the month instead of the beginning and were only double-charged for 1-2 days of service instead of 29 days. Would you still be returning your new Tivo? Yes or no?
> 
> ..unless you plead the fifth.


I believe I already answered this multiple times. It's a principle issue, not an monetary one. It would not have mattered.

I've asked similar questions to rest of you about similar situations and none of you have answered. You're demanding of answers from me (except the person who just wants me to leave).

I'm doing my best to answer direct questions. I believe they've all been answered. Many of them them more than once.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

I just did an online chat with TiVo. I explained the situation and asked if I could have transferred service. The answer was no. "A new requires a new subscription..." to the TiVo Service." When I asked why I would need to continue paying for another TiVo that was dead, the answer was essentially because that's how it works. "The TiVo is cancelled at the end of the billing cycle, we cannot close service in the middle of the billing." 

Once again, I'm sure if I made enough of an issue about it I could get a refund. My issue is the policy, not the money.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Darichard said:


> Just to clarify, despite me saying it's not about the money multiple times, you're sure it's about the money for me. Is that right?


I accept your claim it's about the principle of the policy now, but it wasn't at the beginning, according to your original post. You've said a lot of things in this thread that weren't true; most through ignorance. You've changed what you're upset about several times, as you discovered you were incorrect. You would have been content to continue with a current TiVo sub if TiVo had caved to your demands and given you $10 before your first message here.

All evidence is you continue to feel entitled to the money even now, despite your denials. I think very few readers of the thread think otherwise. That's the base cause of your disagreement with TiVo's policy.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> I believe I already answered this multiple times. It's a principle issue, not an monetary one. It would not have mattered.
> 
> I've asked similar questions to rest of you about similar situations and none of you have answered. You're demanding of answers from me (except the person who just wants me to leave).
> 
> I'm doing my best to answer direct questions. I believe they've all been answered. Many of them them more than once.


So your answer is yes?


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Darichard said:


> I'm doing my best to answer direct questions. I believe they've all been answered. Many of them them more than once.


I've directly asked questions that you've ducked and haven't answered. I still don't have a clear notion of what you think your principle is here. You claim it's not the money, you claim it has nothing to do with TiVo's policy.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> I've directly asked questions that you've ducked and haven't answered. I still don't have a clear notion of what you think your principle is here. You claim it's not the money, you claim it has nothing to do with TiVo's policy.


Several of you seem to be hard to communicate with. Please tell me where I've ducked your questions and I'll try to give a more direct answer.

I don't know how else to say it. I've been direct and used example. I've asked how some of you would feel in similar situations (ex: mobile phone) and haven't gotten answers.

I don't see any point in restating what I've already said multiple times. A had a device that died. I replaced it with a new device. I am having to pay for service on both devices for a period of time. This makes absolutely no sense. A company that does this is not one with whom I want to do business. It's not about me getting the money back. It's about the policy.

I don't know how to state this any more clearly, and there's nothing new in what I just wrote.

You guys are wearing me out. If you don't agree with my disagreement of TiVo's policy, that's fine. I don't see the point in continuing to badger me.


----------



## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> I accept your claim it's about the principle of the policy now, but it wasn't at the beginning, according to your original post. You've said a lot of things in this thread that weren't true; most through ignorance. You've changed what you're upset about several times, as you discovered you were incorrect. You would have been content to continue with a current TiVo sub if TiVo had caved to your demands and given you $10 before your first message here.
> 
> All evidence is you continue to feel entitled to the money even now, despite your denials. I think very few readers of the thread think otherwise. That's the base cause of your disagreement with TiVo's policy.


You're really not getting it. I made no demands. How could they have "caved" to them? I never asked for any money.

Please tell me where and how I've changed what I'm upset about (excepting the Australia site item). In my very first post I said the issue was the policy, not the money. In every post where it's come up since I've said the same thing.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Darichard said:


> You're really not getting it. I made no demands. How could they have "caved" to them? I never asked for any money.
> 
> Please tell me where and how I've changed what I'm upset about (excepting the Australia site item). In my very first post I said the issue was the policy, not the money. In every post where it's come up since I've said the same thing.


But when you answered my question that if you did understand TiVo's T&C before your first TiVo purchase you still most likely would have purchased your first TiVo (post 239 and post 241), just saying.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Darichard said:


> You're really not getting it. I made no demands. How could they have "caved" to them? I never asked for any money.
> 
> Please tell me where and how I've changed what I'm upset about (excepting the Australia site item). In my very first post I said the issue was the policy, not the money. In every post where it's come up since I've said the same thing.


Really? 3rd post in the thread.



Darichard said:


> My issue has nothing to do with TiVos policy..


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> A had a device that died. I replaced it with a new device.


That's not entirely true. Initially you said you bought the new Tivo and that you'd fix the old one when you had more time so you bought the Roamio as a second tivo, not a replacement.



> I am having to pay for service on both devices for a period of time. This makes absolutely no sense.


Only because you chose not to fix the old Tivo.



> A company that does this is not one with whom I want to do business. It's not about me getting the money back. It's about the policy.


Again, the no refund policy has been in existence since before you ever subscribed your TivoHD. In fact it was in effect for every Tivo you've ever subscribed. If what happens at the tail end of the subscription is so damn important to you, you should have been paying attention to what you were agreeing to so that you could have puffed out your chest then and not subscribed at all. It's your own damn fault. You were too self important to be bothered with the terms and when you could have used the service that was already paid for you chose not to fix the Tivo.

and again - you never even asked for any kind of compensation so you don't know how willing they'd be to make things right for you or for anyone else that simply asks. Instead of actually acting on the issue, you just blow up on a public forum.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> You're really not getting it. I made no demands. How could they have "caved" to them? I never asked for any money.
> 
> Please tell me where and how I've changed what I'm upset about (excepting the Australia site item). In my very first post I said the issue was the policy, not the money. In every post where it's come up since I've said the same thing.
> 
> ...


:up:


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Really? 3rd post in the thread.


Good catch. And poor choice of words on my part. There I was talking about policy meaning contract. Later I used the same word regarding their policy of not giving back any part of a month for an unsubscribed TiVo. Same word which meant different things in my head.

Note that their policy is completely consistent with their contractual language. I'm not debating that. I am saying it's bad business and have given example of where other companies do the right thing despite having contracts that allow them to do otherwise. This is my issue.

Thanks for pointing out my discrepancy with the facts only and without name calling or hostility. I appreciate it.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> :up:


Please see my reply to Crispy...


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Ah well I'm bored now. OP is ducking too many questions.

I'm concluding he already had one foot out the door with Tivo because he hadn't used his old HD in months and that's why him minor beef with the CSR was enough to make him return his new Tivo. 

It's pretty easy to return something when you hadn't been using your old one for months.

The principle thing is just how he wants to rationalize it all in his mind. The reality is he was no longer invested enough in it to care whether he has a Tivo or not. So a slight breeze was enough to push him away.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Ah well I'm bored now. OP is ducking too many questions.
> 
> I'm concluding he already had one foot out the door with Tivo because he hadn't used his old HD in months and that's why him minor beef with the CSR was enough to make him return his new Tivo.
> 
> ...


Please tell me what questions I have "ducked?" I believe I've answered every question, excepting the "when are you leaving" question which I'm ignoring. I get that you're bored with this topic. I am too. Don't put your leaving on me not answering questions. I'm here and responding to questions as well as I can.

Once again, you're playing psychologist and trying to ferret out my motives and intent. They are exactly as I've described them here.


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## DancyMunchkin (Jul 7, 2014)

You've ducked my question about when you're leaving this forum since you no longer own a Tivo.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Darichard said:


> Good catch. And poor choice of words on my part. There I was talking about policy meaning contract. Later I used the same word regarding their policy of not giving back any part of a month for an unsubscribed TiVo. Same word which meant different things in my head.
> 
> Note that their policy is completely consistent with their contractual language. I'm not debating that. I am saying it's bad business and have given example of where other companies do the right thing despite having contracts that allow them to do otherwise. This is my issue.
> 
> Thanks for pointing out my discrepancy with the facts only and without name calling or hostility. I appreciate it.


I have no problem with a "poor choice of words"; that can happen to anybody. I have a problem with the meaning - substituting in, it would now read "My issue has nothing to do with TiVo's terms and conditions". That still seems wrong to me.

I've asked you this before and you ducked. I really don't know. What is the explicit principle that caused you to leave TiVo? (Your statement above just says it bad business).

We've established that 
1. You claim your issue has nothing to do with TiVo's terms and conditions.
2. You claim if you had read TiVo's terms and conditions, and thus knew their policy, you still would have gotten your TiVo.

Thus I conclude that the principle involved is not just that TiVo has the policy, since if it was, you wouldn't have gotten a TiVo. Question 2: Do you agree so far?

The only principle remaining that I see is one that states "if a customer thinks they are right in a disagreement, then a business absolutely must give into the customer, even if it goes against their policy"

Question 3: Do you agree that this is your principle causing you to leave TiVo? If not, could you tell me how it differs from your answer to Question 1?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

DancyMunchkin said:


> You've ducked my question about when you're leaving this forum since you no longer own a Tivo.


I addressed this right above your post - perhaps you missed it. "I believe I've answered every question, excepting the "when are you leaving" question which I'm ignoring."


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> I have no problem with a "poor choice of words"; that can happen to anybody. I have a problem with the meaning - substituting in, it would now read "My issue has nothing to do with TiVo's terms and conditions". That still seems wrong to me.
> 
> I've asked you this before and you ducked. I really don't know. What is the explicit principle that caused you to leave TiVo? (Your statement above just says it bad business).
> 
> ...


Once again, you're implying I demanded something from TiVo. You and others are asking loaded questions and then wondering why you don't get a yes or no answer. Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?

Asking if I think TiVo must "give into" a customer implies I demanded something. I did not. I'm not ducking the question. I'm saying it doesn't apply in my case. So no, I don't think TiVO needs to give every customer everything they want.

For about the 10th time now, it has to do with how TiVo handles cancellations of one TiVO and activation of another one. I asked this forum if it would be reasonable for a mobile phone company to charge you for service on two phones when you replaced a broken one. I got no response. It's just not reasonable.

My response to the comment that I may rebuild my old TiVo - that's also irrelevant. I'm not doing so now. I may do it in 2 months, I may do it in year. For now it's dead. I cancelled it as soon as I got a new one. For all practical purposes the Roamio is a replacement. And certainly from TiVos perspective it's a replacement for a dead TiVo.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Darichard said:


> Please tell me what questions I have "ducked?" I believe I've answered every question, excepting the "when are you leaving" question which I'm ignoring. I get that you're bored with this topic. I am too. Don't put your leaving on me not answering questions. I'm here and responding to questions as well as I can.
> 
> Once again, you're playing psychologist and trying to ferret out my motives and intent. They are exactly as I've described them here.


You've wasted lots of money paying a monthly subscription for 13 years and now a refusal to prorate one month of service is a deal breaker. I think you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. There isn't any other DVR appliance that compares to Tivo.

You could have worked the system and gotten a great deal from tivo

I think you could have gotten $99 lifetime on the HD fixed and returned the Roamio within the 30 day return period for a full refund. Or you could have kept the Roamio and sold the HD for a profit.

You could have looked for a cheap HD on line and swapped it for the broken HD and kept your current plan.


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## randyb359 (Jan 3, 2009)

can anyone name a prepaid service that offers a refund for partial months. Tivo's policy is the same as most prepaid services. So the op has no real complaint.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Darichard said:


> Once again, you're implying I demanded something from TiVo. You and others are asking loaded questions and then wondering why you don't get a yes or no answer. Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?
> 
> Asking if I think TiVo must "give into" a customer implies I demanded something. I did not. I'm not ducking the question. I'm saying it doesn't apply in my case. So no, I don't think TiVO needs to give every customer everything they want.
> 
> ...


Please tell me which question is loaded?
Is it question 1, a question that you've claimed to have answered several times, but actually haven't?
Is it question 2, which is just a straight-forward summarization of your claims, and the obvious conclusion?
Is it question 3, which is a biased question, but is an attempt to give you an opportunity to explain?

None of these are loaded. All are designed to give you a chance to present your view and distinguish your view from those who are arguing with you.

You are ducking questions again.


----------



## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Please tell me which question is loaded?
> Is it question 1, a question that you've claimed to have answered several times, but actually haven't?
> Is it question 2, which is just a straight-forward summarization of your claims, and the obvious conclusion?
> Is it question 3, which is a biased question, but is an attempt to give you an opportunity to explain?
> ...


For Pete's sake... I quoted the part of your post that was a loaded question and responded to it. I can't expect TiVo to "give into" customer claims since I never asked them for anything. How is this ducking anything?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> You've wasted lots of money paying a monthly subscription for 13 years and now a refusal to prorate one month of service is a deal breaker. I think you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. There isn't any other DVR appliance that compares to Tivo.
> 
> You could have worked the system and gotten a great deal from tivo
> 
> ...


Who said I've paid monthly for 13 years?

Maybe all true. I was not aware of these options and nothing was offered to me by TiVo. Apparently I didn't know the secret handshake. I could have bought Tesla stock 18 months ago and made 5x on my money.

I don't see why I should have to work the system. I'll be happy to call and see if they'll give me lifetime on my HD for $99.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Darichard said:


> For Pete's sake... I quoted the part of your post that was a loaded question and responded to it. I can't expect TiVo to "give into" customer claims since I never asked them for anything. How is this ducking anything?


Then the answer to Question 3 is "No". That's not a loaded question at all. If you ever answer Question 1, I would hope and expect your answer to Question 3 to be "No". The important part of Question 3 is how YOU distinguish your Question 1 answer from the Question 3 supposition.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

randyb359 said:


> can anyone name a prepaid service that offers a refund for partial months. Tivo's policy is the same as most prepaid services. So the op has no real complaint.


this has been addressed earlier in the thread - most service providers (except local electric and water), especially when under contract, require payment in advance. tivo monthly is a contract service, not a pre-paid service - there's a difference.


----------



## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Then the answer to Question 3 is "No". That's not a loaded question at all. If you ever answer Question 1, I would hope and expect your answer to Question 3 to be "No". The important part of Question 3 is how YOU distinguish your Question 1 answer from the Question 3 supposition.


So you seem to want to try to have a logical rather than policy (or opinion of policy) debate with me. Let's try that.

You're referring to 3 questions. You wrote:


CrispyCritter said:


> I've asked you this before and you ducked. I really don't know. What is the explicit principle that caused you to leave TiVo? (Your statement above just says it bad business).
> This is question 1, correct? I've answered this over and over. I answered it directly in my reply to this post. Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean I haven't answered.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Darichard said:


> So you seem to want to try to have a logical rather than policy (or opinion of policy) debate with me. Let's try that.
> 
> You're referring to 3 questions. You wrote:
> 
> ...


And you still haven't answered it. I asked for principles, not reasons. So apparently there are no principles involved here, despite your claims. How disappointing. (Principles are things that would apply to any company; reasons are what TiVo did this time).



Darichard said:


> Sure. I've already answered this over and over. When I say TiVo has the right to charge me contractually, how is that not logically the same thing? I've said it doesn't matter if I read the terms or not, that my issue is not with the contract. I answered this long before you asked it, and you're now giving me a hard time for not answering it again. It's irrelevant to my argument.


This is the first time you've said the terms and whether you've read them is irrelevant to your argument. It's only the second time you've said you would have agreed to the contract knowing the terms, so I thought I'd better check. You've been wrong in some of your statements a good number of times (including multiple claims of giving answers over and over, like this one).



Darichard said:


> I never said nor implied this. For the 2nd time, this is loaded question. You're implying that I think TiVo should give any customer whatever they want, any time, under any conditions.


Where did I imply that? I asked you if it was true, that does not imply you think it. It was not a loaded question. I expected a "No" answer and an explanation why your principles were different. It appears I won't get that, since you have no principles you are willing to state.


----------



## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> And you still haven't answered it. I asked for principles, not reasons. So apparently there are no principles involved here, despite your claims. How disappointing. (Principles are things that would apply to any company; reasons are what TiVo did this time).


Do I need to use the word "principle" every time I make my point. I've given examples of companies I won't do business with based on principle, and I've given examples where those I will do business with despite personally not preferring their products. I've been consist and have mentioned this over and over. I really don't know what more I can say to illustrate it for you. Below are several quotes - not all them. These are all about principle. You wrote a couple of days ago that you accepted that it was about principle for me. This really feels like your arguing for the sake of it.



Darichard said:


> I just don't want to do business with a company that would have me pay for service on a device that can't be used.





Darichard said:


> There's a right way to do business and wrong way. There are agreements, and there is treating customers the right way.





Darichard said:


> It's about doing the right think and treating customers fairly and reasonably.





Darichard said:


> Based on this practice and my experience with this transaction they are not a company with whom I want to do business.





Darichard said:


> Regardless of what I agreed to, TiVo charging me for unit that's dead when I have a replacement up and running makes no sense.


This is the first time you've said the terms and whether you've read them is irrelevant to your argument. It's only the second time you've said you would have agreed to the contract knowing the terms, so I thought I'd better check. You've been wrong in some of your statements a good number of times (including multiple claims of giving answers over and over, like this one). 


Darichard said:


> As others have mentioned, I really didn't read the fine print. But that's irrelevant to my argument.





CrispyCritter said:


> Where did I imply that? I asked you if it was true, that does not imply you think it. It was not a loaded question. I expected a "No" answer and an explanation why your principles were different. It appears I won't get that, since you have no principles you are willing to state.


I've stated that this is not my position multiple times. Yet your asking anyway and saying it's the only remaining principle, essentially saying "we're down to this one." How is that not an implication.

I see that you're watching Game of Thrones and I know you don't have HBO. The only option remaining is that you're pirating the content. Of course, this isn't am implication, right?


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## DancyMunchkin (Jul 7, 2014)

Darichard said:


> I addressed this right above your post - perhaps you missed it. "I believe I've answered every question, excepting the "when are you leaving" question which I'm ignoring."


Given your other posts, this isn't a surprise.


----------



## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Darichard said:


> Who said I've paid monthly for 13 years?
> 
> Maybe all true. I was not aware of these options and nothing was offered to me by TiVo. Apparently I didn't know the secret handshake. I could have bought Tesla stock 18 months ago and made 5x on my money.
> 
> I don't see why I should have to work the system. I'll be happy to call and see if they'll give me lifetime on my HD for $99.


If you had come in and said your Hard Drive was failing and can anyone help me, you would have gotten lots of advice and help. Coming in to say TiVo sucks and you are leaving, not so much. As you found out.

It's still not too late to fix the old box. There's a huge thread on how to do that very thing here on the forum. Replacing a hard drive is trivial if you can use basic tools and read directions. If that's too much trouble, there are services like Weaknees that will do it for you for a fee or send you a pre formatted hard drive that you can pop in yourself and you avoid having to use any software. There are lots of options. I've done it twice (three times?) myself. Maybe it's not too late to keep you in the fold after all.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> Please tell me what questions I have "ducked?" I believe I've answered every question, excepting the "when are you leaving" question which I'm ignoring. I get that you're bored with this topic. I am too. Don't put your leaving on me not answering questions. I'm here and responding to questions as well as I can.
> 
> Once again, you're playing psychologist and trying to ferret out my motives and intent. They are exactly as I've described them here.


I (twice) asked you yes or no if you would have canceled your Tivo if happened to call July 28th instead of July 2nd. YOu didn't answer either time and then said you have directly answered all questions. lol. That was a good laugh I guess. I also asked if you would have quit if the service was $1/month and they didn't give you a pro-rated refund. You didn't answer that either. The list goes on.

so yes I'm putting my boredom with this thread on you. You help make the thread. If you're not going to play along it is no fun at least for me. lol.

And I'm just one of the latest to go in circles a few times and get my fill. I hope a Season 2 is coming. But we need a new 1st world problem and over-reaction.

Anyway case closed (for me.) No reasonable person that really wants a Tivo is going to quit over a trivial billing/policy issue.


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## DancyMunchkin (Jul 7, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> No reasonable person that really wants a Tivo is going to quit over a trivial billing/policy issue.


'Trivial' is one of the 2 two 't' words that apply to this thread.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

shwru980r said:


> You've wasted lots of money paying a monthly subscription for 13 years and now a refusal to prorate one month of service is a deal breaker. I think you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. There isn't any other DVR appliance that compares to Tivo.
> 
> You could have worked the system and gotten a great deal from tivo
> 
> ...





Darichard said:


> *Maybe all true. I was not aware of these options* and nothing was offered to me by TiVo. Apparently I didn't know the secret handshake. I could have bought Tesla stock 18 months ago and made 5x on my money.
> 
> I don't see why I should have to work the system. I'll be happy to call and see if they'll give me lifetime on my HD for $99.


How about instead, we help the OP fix his TiVo HD? Sounds like he wasn't aware of some of the options. Are you open to that Darichard? Do you still want it, if you can fix it? Maybe we can turn this thread from something negative into something positive. 

If it's really just a bad drive, that's _very_ fixable and there are many options. You could even upgrade and put in a larger drive than you originally had. TiVo will most likely give you a 99 dollar lifetime sub for it too as stated above. They tend to do that on older boxes. I just did it with my old Series 3 last week when i got my Roamio, and all I had to do was ask.

Here's one resource if you prefer to buy a pre-formatted "drop in" drive. They even supply the Tools: http://www.dvrupgrade.com/tivo/product.php?productid=338&cat=16&page=1


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

randyb359 said:


> can anyone name a prepaid service that offers a refund for partial months. Tivo's policy is the same as most prepaid services. So the op has no real complaint.


Define what you call a prepaid service, I know a prepaid service cell phone has no pro-rate, but my prepaid cable service does have a prorate, Netflix has no pro-rate if you cancel but your service is not cut off till the end of your prepaid time (pay Netflix on the 25th of each month, cancel on the 15th of a month and your service will not stop until the 25th of that month).


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## randyb359 (Jan 3, 2009)

lessd said:


> Define what you call a prepaid service, I know a prepaid service cell phone has no pro-rate, but my prepaid cable service does have a prorate, Netflix has no pro-rate if you cancel but your service is not cut off till the end of your prepaid time (pay Netflix on the 25th of each month, cancel on the 15th of a month and your service will not stop until the 25th of that month).


Tivo keeps your service active till the end of the month also


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

All that should factor into when someone cancels service. I typically wait until the end of the term to cancel a service like TV, phone etc.,. And if not I don't expect a pro-rated refund. I will be cancelling my Netflix Disc Service at the end of this term after being with Netflix since early 1999. The Disc service has gone down the crapper for the last few month so they are basically forcing me to cancel. I had no idea what their policy is but I will cancel with in the last three days of my current term. I would do the same thing with TiVo if I ever canceled the service on my $6.95 monthly Roamio Basic.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

randyb359 said:


> Tivo keeps your service active till the end of the month also


I did not know that, so TiVo is giving you what you paid for. I never had monthly TiVo service that why I did not know.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

bareyb said:


> It's still not too late to fix the old box. There's a huge thread on how to do that very thing here on the forum. Replacing a hard drive is trivial if you can use basic tools and read directions. If that's too much trouble, there are services like Weaknees that will do it for you for a fee or send you a pre formatted hard drive that you can pop in yourself and you avoid having to use any software. There are lots of options. I've done it twice (three times?) myself. Maybe it's not too late to keep you in the fold after all.


Thanks for that. I've rebuilt a couple of TiVo and am quite handy around PCs and other electronics. I may fix it - not sure it's worth my time.


----------



## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> I (twice) asked you yes or no if you would have canceled your Tivo if happened to call July 28th instead of July 2nd. YOu didn't answer either time and then said you have directly answered all questions. lol. That was a good laugh I guess. I also asked if you would have quit if the service was $1/month and they didn't give you a pro-rated refund. You didn't answer that either. The list goes on.


The list does not go on. I have answered this numerous times. It's called logic. If it's not about the money, then the amount of money is irrelevant. It's the principle. And please don't ask me to tell you (again) what I'm talking about. It's like I say "I'll take anything less than 5" and you then ask me if I'll take 4. It's already been answered. But I suspect you already know that I've answered.



trip1eX said:


> Anyway case closed (for me.) No reasonable person that really wants a Tivo is going to quit over a trivial billing/policy issue.


Don't care. I went mountain biking with my kids and got most of a cedar planter box build. Had a great day. You clearly are being antagonistic for sport. My bad for not choosing to tune you out earlier.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> The list does not go on. I have answered this numerous times. It's called logic. If it's not about the money, then the amount of money is irrelevant. It's the principle. And please don't ask me to tell you (again) what I'm talking about. It's like I say "I'll take anything less than 5" and you then ask me if I'll take 4. It's already been answered. But I suspect you already know that I've answered.
> 
> Don't care. I went mountain biking with my kids and got most of a cedar planter box build. Had a great day. You clearly are being antagonistic for sport. My bad for not choosing to tune you out earlier.


I am just concluding the obvious. No reasonable person who really wants a Tivo is going to return it over a trivial billing/policy issue.

Nothing wrong with spending all day outdoors. It does sound great. But the fact you mentioned it in this context only furthers bolsters my conclusion.

And you clearly haven't answered all direct questions.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> I am just concluding the obvious. No reasonable person who really wants a Tivo is going to return it over a trivial billing/policy issue.
> 
> Nothing wrong with spending all day outdoors. It does sound great. But the fact you mentioned it in this context only furthers bolsters my conclusion.
> 
> And you clearly haven't answered all direct questions.


How about re-naming this Thread (OP) as *Done with this Thread*


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

lessd said:


> How about re-naming this Thread (OP) as *Done with this Thread*


 Indisputable fact: A person determined to have the last word (post) on a thread can most certainly do so, as long as they live longer than any other person desiring the same thing!


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Darichard said:


> Who said I've paid monthly for 13 years?
> 
> Maybe all true. I was not aware of these options and nothing was offered to me by TiVo. Apparently I didn't know the secret handshake. I could have bought Tesla stock 18 months ago and made 5x on my money.
> 
> I don't see why I should have to work the system. I'll be happy to call and see if they'll give me lifetime on my HD for $99.


You never called tivo to find out the options. You just ran off half cocked and bought a Roamio. Tivo has no way of knowing your Tivo HD was broken. Why should they take your word for it. Everyone would call in and claim their old Tivo broke and demand a prorated refund.

I find it hard to believe that you didn't know you could just get another working Tivo HD and replace your existing Tivo HD.

Had you called Tivo you likely would have been informed of the $99 lifetime on the Tivo HD when you purchased the Roamio and tried to cancel the Tivo HD.

You could probably still get the $99 lifetime on the HD and sell it to make up for the prorated monthly fee refund you didn't get.

Your claim of a secret handshake is preposterous. All that is required is common sense and business acumen.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

This is still going on?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

lessd said:


> How about re-naming this Thread (OP) as *Done with this Thread*


You know you could just stop reading it, right?


----------



## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> You never called tivo to find out the options. You just ran off half cocked and bought a Roamio.


More insults. You guys are really putting your best foot forward. Given the conditions at the time (the wife wanted to record) and other stuff going on, and what I read about a Roamio, it's the choice I made. I'm guessing if I told what wine I had last night with dinner that would be wrong too.



shwru980r said:


> Tivo has no way of
> knowing your Tivo HD was broken. Why should they take your word for it. Everyone would call in and claim their old Tivo broke and demand a prorated refund.


I never demand nor asked for a refund. (Are we at 10 times that I've written this yet?) Let's say it wasn't broken and I replaced my HD with a Roamio. I still don't see why I should be charger for service on both.



shwru980r said:


> I find it hard to believe that you didn't know you could just get another working Tivo HD and replace your existing Tivo HD.


Ok. You can find it hard to believe. I didn't want another HD. I wanted a Roamio. And based on what they told via online chat it wouldn't have mattered. The person indicated that the would move service to another TiVo.



shwru980r said:


> Had you called Tivo you likely would have been informed of the $99 lifetime on the Tivo HD when you purchased the Roamio and tried to cancel the Tivo HD. You could probably still get the $99 lifetime on the HD and sell it to make up for the prorated monthly fee refund you didn't get.


I did call. I was not informed about this option. If I get a chance I will call and ask about the $99 deal. I'll try to brush up on my common sense beforehand.



shwru980r said:


> Your claim of a secret handshake is preposterous. All that is required is common sense and business acumen.


Preposterous! Knowing about a $99 deal they didn't mention or that I could have swapped service with another TiVo (which I can't) is business acumen?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Darichard said:


> You know you could just stop reading it, right?


And I could stop taking my heroin fix, I guess both are hard to do.


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## DancyMunchkin (Jul 7, 2014)

If you ignore drama queens, they go away.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Darichard said:


> Thanks for that. I've rebuilt a couple of TiVo and am quite handy around PCs and other electronics. I may fix it - not sure it's worth my time.


But your 75 posts in this thread **are** worth your time? As far as I can see you have accomplished nothing here. You probably could have fixed the HD in the time you've spent here.

What record are you going for in this thread? Most posts? Most views? Most posts beating a dead horse?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

dlfl said:


> But your 75 posts in this thread **are** worth your time? As far as I can see you have accomplished nothing here. You probably could have fixed the HD in the time you've spent here.
> 
> What record are you going for in this thread? Most posts? Most views? Most posts beating a dead horse?


You guys are hysterical. You keep asking questions, criticize me for not answering all them, and criticize me for so many posts. I'm drinking a cappuccino. Would you care to criticize that. ("Any idiot with some business acumen knows that a latte is the better way to go. Did you even ask?")

Most of my posts are made from the train while commuting or from the airport (or airplane). I can't really work on a TiVo at those times. My time at home is extremely valuable and limited. Kids, a bunch of on going projects, practice, games, reading time, family dinner... generally having a life. Getting a TiVo rebuilt is way down the list. If it happens it will be this winter.


----------



## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

daveak said:


> This is still going on?


Yep....


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Darichard said:


> You guys are hysterical. You keep asking questions, criticize me for not answering all them, and criticize me for so many posts. I'm drinking a cappuccino. Would you care to criticize that. ("Any idiot with some business acumen knows that a latte is the better way to go. Did you even ask?")
> 
> Most of my posts are made from the train while commuting or from the airport (or airplane). I can't really work on a TiVo at those times. My time at home is extremely valuable and limited. Kids, a bunch of on going projects, practice, games, reading time, family dinner... generally having a life. Getting a TiVo rebuilt is way down the list. If it happens it will be this winter.


Har Har! My what a great life you lead! The Carly Simon song "You're So Vain" comes to mind. You probably think this thread is about you .... don't you?


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Darichard said:


> More insults. You guys are really putting your best foot forward. Given the conditions at the time (the wife wanted to record) and other stuff going on, and what I read about a Roamio, it's the choice I made. I'm guessing if I told what wine I had last night with dinner that would be wrong too.


I'm sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities. Please forgive me.



Darichard said:


> I never demand nor asked for a refund. (Are we at 10 times that I've written this yet?) Let's say it wasn't broken and I replaced my HD with a Roamio. I still don't see why I should be charger for service on both.


You told the CSR that the failure to provide the prorated refund could result in your returning the Roamio for a refund.



Darichard said:


> Ok. You can find it hard to believe. I didn't want another HD. I wanted a Roamio. And based on what they told via online chat it wouldn't have mattered. The person indicated that the would move service to another TiVo.


Right, but at that point you hadn't purchased a new Tivo so a move was impossible at that point. Then you went off half cocked and purchased a new Roamio and some how expected the service to automatically transfer. Did you really expect Tivo to keep a record of that conversation and automatically transfer your service when you purchased the new Tivo? Again, I find it hard to believe that was your expectation.



Darichard said:


> I did call. I was not informed about this option. If I get a chance I will call and ask about the $99 deal. I'll try to brush up on my common sense beforehand.


You probably weren't offered the deal because of your position on the prorated refund. They will probably offer it to you if you call again.



Darichard said:


> Preposterous! Knowing about a $99 deal they didn't mention or that I could have swapped service with another TiVo (which I can't) is business acumen?


Again, I find this hard to believe. It most certainly is possible to transfer service from one Tivo to another. You are making a flat out false assertion here. You can easily find numerous threads where folks transferred service, but you will probably claim they knew the secret handshake, but in reality they just used common sense and had a shred of business acumen.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

shwru980r said:


> ...It most certainly is possible to transfer service from one Tivo to another...You can easily find numerous threads where folks transferred service...


only if the caller knows the correct procedure before calling, and only if the phone rep makes the appropriate offer by asking questions and reviewing the account. otherwise, this thread.

i'm still wondering why tivo still won't fix this after the fact, with the involvement of someone who has the authority.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

shwru980r said:


> Again, I find this hard to believe. It most certainly is possible to transfer service from one Tivo to another. You are making a flat out false assertion here. You can easily find numerous threads where folks transferred service, but you will probably claim they knew the secret handshake, but in reality they just used common sense and had a shred of business acumen.


Only month to month can be easily xfered, some people have the $6.95/month rate, keeping that rate does take some business acumen. But any month to month rate against a $99 lifetime makes no sense, even at $6.95 it only takes about 15 months to come out even.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> I'm sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities. Please forgive me.


I'm not that delicate. Very internet of you guys to be insulting and result to personal attacks rather than having a dialog.



shwru980r said:


> You told the CSR that the failure to provide the prorated refund could result in your returning the Roamio for a refund.


I did not. I never asked for refund. I said so in my first post. You're either not reading what I wrote or are ignoring. Either way, I'm wasting my time.



shwru980r said:


> Right, but at that point you hadn't purchased a new Tivo so a move was impossible at that point.


You again appear to not be reading my posts. It was requested (or suggested) that a transfer was possible. I contacted TiVO and asked. They told me it's not possible to do so.



shwru980r said:


> Then you went off half cocked and purchased a new Roamio and some how expected the service to automatically transfer.


I believe I was fully cocked. I really don't get why you're critical of my choice to get a Roamio. At that time it was the right choice for me. I had no expectation that it would automatically transfer. Not sure why you think that.



shwru980r said:


> You probably weren't offered the deal because of your position on the prorated refund. They will probably offer it to you if you call again.


Ok. But I need to ask for it, right?



shwru980r said:


> Again, I find this hard to believe. It most certainly is possible to transfer service from one Tivo to another.


Perhaps you should contact them. I have been told otherwise by TiVo.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Har Har! My what a great life you lead! The Carly Simon song "You're So Vain" comes to mind. You probably think this thread is about you .... don't you?


My life is pretty good. You apparently think I was bragging. Riding the train and traveling makes me vain? It actually makes me tired. My point was being stuck commuting is about the only downtime I get. FYI, it's not a good way to get it. The train is filthy and packed during rush hour. I don't leave early or late I end up standing for 40 minutes, often far to close to people with far too little hygiene.

My flying usually consists of getting up at 4:00am, flying somewhere, working all day, and then returning at the end of they day to get home by 9:00pm or so.

I would prefer to drive a comfortable car to work and to never have to do same-day or one-day trips. There's nothing fun or glamorous about it.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Darichard said:


> My life is pretty good. You apparently think I was bragging. Riding the train and traveling makes me vain? It actually makes me tired. My point was being stuck commuting is about the only downtime I get. FYI, it's not a good way to get it. The train is filthy and packed during rush hour. I don't leave early or late I end up standing for 40 minutes, often far to close to people with far too little hygiene.
> 
> My flying usually consists of getting up at 4:00am, flying somewhere, working all day, and then returning at the end of they day to get home by 9:00pm or so.
> 
> I would prefer to drive a comfortable car to work and to never have to do same-day or one-day trips. There's nothing fun or glamorous about it.


Arrrghh! Please stop the soap opera! I surrender! And I apologize to the few members who may still be reading this thread for provoking such posts from you.

Ignoring this thread. What a waste of TCF server space!


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Arrrghh! Please stop the soap opera! I surrender! And I apologize to the few members who may still be reading this thread for provoking such posts from you.
> 
> Ignoring this thread. What a waste of TCF server space!


You guys are at me from every angle. You're on for not replying, reply too much, not using my time replying to work on my TiVo, for bragging when I explain that it's essentially time I can't use for anything else, and then of drama when I explain why it wasn't bragging.

I'm sure the last post was an over-reaction. I don't need or want sympathy for my travel situation. I was really just trying to explain and to perhaps educate as to why people who travel rarely brag about it.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

NorthAlabama said:


> if your cell phone breaks, you don't have to cancel service, you get a new phone, and the existing service continues with the new phone, pre-paid or contract. this is what should have happened with tivo service.


IAWTP.

I seriously thought that was how this worked. That your service contract could be transferred. Because, remember, they at one point had this whole thing about "new lines of service" and how those were different from buying a new TiVo and transferring service. And to get the special price, it had to be a NEW service contract.

IDK, are we sure this isn't how it works and the service rep wasn't just misinformed or wrong?


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> And does happen with TiVo service. Why do you think it doesn't? It doesn't apply to the OP because he chose not to go that route.


Right! Ok, I am not crazy. That is what I thought.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Darichard said:


> Let me ask you a similar question: your phone breaks and you get a new T-mobile one to replace it. Is is reasonable for T-mobile to charge you for both?


Maybe. Did I buy the new phone and activate it online before I called T-Mobile? If so, T-Mobile may try to fix it after the fact, but it would certainly take more effort and I might be out my activation fee and a month of service.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Guys, the OP seems like a reasonable, polite and non-trolly poster. And there's a handful of people on here who are being dicks to him for no reason.

The OP just has a different priority set than we do. I would like to understand his priority set, but criticizing him for it is garbage. Stop.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> Guys, the OP seems like a reasonable, polite and non-trolly poster. And there's a handful of people on here who are being dicks to him for no reason.
> 
> The OP just has a different priority set than we do. I would like to understand his priority set, but criticizing him for it is garbage. Stop.


If the original post seemed reasonable this thread would be a lot shorter.

Instead the OP's OP always begged the question of is he a crazy old coot or did he already have one foot out the Tivo door?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> If the original post seemed reasonable this thread would be a lot shorter.
> 
> Instead the OP's OP always begged the question of is he a crazy old coot or did he already have one foot out the Tivo door?


I don't think he started with one foot out the TiVo door, he just tried something (I am sure not on purpose) that is not the standard way TiVo xfers service, so he though that TiVo should change their standard way of doing business and give him the prorate for the rest of the pre-paid month he was not going to use, the CSR can't do that, but they can, if you ask nicely, give you a credit on your credit card and not call it a prorate, but the OP was dealing with his principles on how a business should work without asking for any favors, like the way most cable co operate, an automatic prorate for the part of the month not used.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> IAWTP.
> 
> I seriously thought that was how this worked. That your service contract could be transferred. Because, remember, they at one point had this whole thing about "new lines of service" and how those were different from buying a new TiVo and transferring service. And to get the special price, it had to be a NEW service contract.
> 
> IDK, are we sure this isn't how it works and the service rep wasn't just misinformed or wrong?


Two service reps have told me this isn't possible. Why don't one of you call and ask about transferring service from an HD to a Roamio and tell us how it goes?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> Maybe. Did I buy the new phone and activate it online before I called T-Mobile? If so, T-Mobile may try to fix it after the fact, but it would certainly take more effort and I might be out my activation fee and a month of service.


Fair point.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Instead the OP's OP always begged the question of is he a crazy old coot or did he already have one foot out the Tivo door?


Are those the only two options? Way too busy to argue with you, and just don't care that you think either of these about me.

You know what strikes the most odd? That most of you can't get your heads around the idea that this isn't about the money for me. That seems to be incomprehensible for you. (That you think I'm wrong and/or took the wrong approach on this I understand.)

May check in tomorrow. Am taking another run at TiVo to see if this is really a policy or just people being misinformed. Will report back if learn anything.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> Guys, the OP seems like a reasonable, polite and non-trolly poster. And there's a handful of people on here who are being dicks to him for no reason.


Thanks much for the support. I appreciate you being the voice of reason, but it's not necessary. It's the internet - enough said. It brings out hostility that just doesn't appear in person. (Read a study about it a while back - Scientific American maybe? You can Google it.) I spend time on Reddit and see far worse behavior than this. I deal with butt-nozzles all day at work. I'm fairly think skinned.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> Are those the only two options? Way too busy to argue with you, and just don't care that you think either of these about me.
> 
> You know what strikes the most odd? That most of you can't get your heads around the idea that this isn't about the money for me. That seems to be incomprehensible for you. (That you think I'm wrong and/or took the wrong approach on this I understand.)
> 
> May check in tomorrow. Am taking another run at TiVo to see if this is really a policy or just people being misinformed. Will report back if learn anything.


Yeah those are the only two options.

Most of us can't see the show stopper in your OP. That's why most think you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.


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## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

Darichard said:


> You know what strikes the most odd? That most of you can't get your heads around the idea that this isn't about the money for me.


In your shoes, I'd probably argue my point about pro-rating also, but if I learned it wasn't possible, not policy, or they wouldn't/couldn't do it, I doubt I'd return my Roamio or be finished with Tivo. That's the point of principle I'm having trouble grasping, though accept it's how you feel.

There are so many egregious ways companies do business, that if I were to boycott every one with which I had a point of difference, I'd need to live in the forest and gather my own fruits and nuts. There are companies I won't do business with (Walmart), so I'm not without boycotts.

For me, Tivo serves a function I can't get in the same way anywhere else, and in spite of frequent complaints about phone reps in assorted threads, it's about the only company from which I've purchased consumer electronics which offers phone support for free (not that it's always right on the first try!) I could call about issues with one of my life-timed S2s if I was still using one, and they'd hang with me if I was having problems with my life-timed S3s - none of which have generated revenue for Tivo for a very long time.

So since I find Tivo's policies more consumer-friendly than most, the pro-rating issue seems like too small a gnat to toss the product overboard for.

But hey, my gnat your elephant.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> If the original post seemed reasonable this thread would be a lot shorter.
> 
> Instead the OP's OP always begged the question of is he a crazy old coot or did he already have one foot out the Tivo door?


Even if his original post was imprecise, he has since clarified REPEATEDLY such that his current position is a reasonable one. Continuing to attack him at this point is just being a dick for no reason.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Darichard said:


> Two service reps have told me this isn't possible. Why don't one of you call and ask about transferring service from an HD to a Roamio and tell us how it goes?


Ah ha! I think you have found it!

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/20

The TiVoHD service plan cannot be transferred to a Roamio or Premiere!

I wonder why? It has to be a technology reason, and not a business reason, right? Because there is no business reason to make this distinction between a TiVoHD and older and a Premiere and newer.

If i were guessing, I would guess that the two operate on entirely different servers, with entirely different front and back-ends. And as a result, it's not technologically feasible to transfer service between these two systems. So they just policy it out.

Given this, you are correct, that the PROPER course of action for TiVo would have been to deactivate the old box, issue a partial refund on the service (or, really, for customer retention purposes, a full refund) and then let you keep service on the new box.

So all we're wondering now is, even given that what TiVo did was not good customer service, why was one bad customer service moment so important? I tend to give companies a few minor screw ups. Maybe I am more forgiving of people?

My general policy is, first level support is populated by idiots. That's not fair, but you know what I mean. People who are not giving me the best support they can give me. So I usually escalate one level before I care about the responses I get.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Grakthis said:


> Even if his original post was imprecise, he has since clarified REPEATEDLY such that his current position is a reasonable one. Continuing to attack him at this point is just being a dick for no reason.


Really? If he had known about TiVo's policy in advance, he would still have become a TiVo customer. There is not a principled reaction to TiVo's policy here. The reason he's complaining is that TiVo is sticking by its policy. No principles here.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> Even if his original post was imprecise, he has since clarified REPEATEDLY such that his current position is a reasonable one. Continuing to attack him at this point is just being a dick for no reason.


? I don't think you understand my position or the position of many others.

Everyone understands his beef. We just think he's cutting off his nose to spite his face.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

With 7 pages and over 300 hundred posts I don't know who is cutting off who nose, this Thread has become like a** holes, everybody has one.

A quick look and I have found only 5 or 6 other Threads that have more posts than this one.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

lessd said:


> With 7 pages and over 300 hundred posts I don't know who is cutting off who nose, this Thread has become like a** holes, everybody has one.
> 
> A quick look and I have found only 5 or 6 other Threads that have more posts than this one.


I totally forgot what was being argued.about, I'm just sitting back with popcorn and watching.... It helps me forget that TiVo hasn't released Android streaming yet.

On a side note, I picked up couple nice Vizio smart tv's off a Woot offer a couple weeks ago, meant to bring it but forgot but anyhow the tv's are awesome. While they were refurbished and the shipping packing was terrible, I like them! Now if my cable co didn't have such terrible compression on their HD content, I would be tickled pink.

Did see these, I'm tempted to Woot one of these.....

http://electronics.woot.com/plus/tuff-mount-1?ref=cnt_wp_9


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I transferred my $6.95 a month service from my Premiere to a ROamio BAsic last November(That $6.95 service had been transferred from a TiVoHD to a Premiere in MArch 2010 when the Premiere launched). Although I did have to buy the Roamio Basic from TiVo. But they also gave me lifetime for $99 on the Premiere.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

This is still going on?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

I sent an email to the CEO's office. Got a very quick reply that the customer service rep could have given me a refund and that they have now done so. 

I replied and told them I was not asking for a refund, but for a clarification on their policy. Got an answer today that it is not TiVo policy for people to pay for service after the date they cancel. They also confirmed (again) that I could not have transferred service from my HD to the Roamio.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends. Some people started reading it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue posting here forever, just because this is the thread that never ends ...


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

unitron said:


> This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends. Some people started reading it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue posting here forever, just because this is the thread that never ends ...


Post !! let keep it going, maybe a record in the making.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

lessd said:


> Post !! let keep it going, maybe a record in the making.


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GdQTf3CDCY&feature=youtu.be[/media]


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> I sent an email to the CEO's office. Got a very quick reply that the customer service rep could have given me a refund and that they have now done so.
> 
> I replied and told them I was not asking for a refund, but for a clarification on their policy. Got an answer today that it is not TiVo policy for people to pay for service after the date they cancel. They also confirmed (again) that I could not have transferred service from my HD to the Roamio.


Comedy gold.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

> What the heck is going in with TiVO. It's not the money that's the issue for me. It could be $2 or it could be $50. *What kind of idiotic company thinks it's reasonable to charge a customer for service they can't possibly use?* If I hadn't activated a new TiVo I could almost, maybe, kinda see their point.





Darichard said:


> I sent an email to the CEO's office. *Got a very quick reply that the customer service rep could have given me a refund and that they have now done so. *
> 
> I replied and told them I was not asking for a refund, but for a clarification on their policy. *Got an answer today that it is not TiVo policy for people to pay for service after the date they cancel.* They also confirmed (again) that I could not have transferred service from my HD to the Roamio.


So it sounds like the CSR was mistaken after all and should have prorated your payment and that has now been done for you. So that's good. Are you still upset because they can't transfer service from an HD to a Roamio or did this solve all your grievances?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Comedy gold.


So glad you are amused.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

bareyb said:


> So it sounds like the CSR was mistaken and should have prorated your payment and that has now been done for you. So that's good. Are you still upset because they can't transfer service from an HD to a Roamio or did this solve all your grievances?


TiVo is being a little bit coy. The first reply said "could have" refunded. Second reply said based on when I made my payment, they should have refunded. I got three consistent CSR answers that they don't refund.

Something isn't consistent here. I'm not going to speculate beyond that (well, not here).


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Darichard said:


> TiVo is being a little bit coy. The first reply said "could have" refunded. Second reply said based on when I made my payment, they should have refunded. I got three consistent CSR answers that they don't refund.
> 
> Something isn't consistent here. I'm not going to speculate beyond that (well, not here).


If the CSR had given you the Prorated refund in the first place would that have avoided all this or is there still something that you wanted that you aren't getting?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

bareyb said:


> If the CSR had given you the Prorated refund in the first place would that have avoided all this or is there still something that you wanted that you aren't getting?


I really don't know what it is about this you guys aren't getting. It's not about my refund. It's about how they conduct business.

Most of you and I are clearly not able to discuss the same issue. I clearly haven't communicated it well.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

bareyb said:


> So it sounds like the CSR was mistaken after all and should have prorated your payment and that has now been done for you. So that's good. Are you still upset because they can't transfer service from an HD to a Roamio or did this solve all your grievances?





Darichard said:


> I really don't know what it is about this you guys aren't getting. It's not about my refund. It's about how they conduct business.
> 
> Most of you and I are clearly not able to discuss the same issue. I clearly haven't communicated it well.


I'm actually trying to help you if you read my posts... and no you have not communicated it very well at all. I read your OP and even quoted the parts I thought were relevant, and I'm still not clear if you were mad about them not pro-rating, or because they couldn't transfer service. Or was it something else?

Can you clarify exactly what they should have done to make you happy?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

bareyb said:


> Can you clarify exactly what they should have done to make you happy?


Or *what they should have been doing as a business to have not made you unhappy?

*


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

lessd said:


> Or *what they should have been doing as a business to have not made you unhappy?
> 
> *


NOt selling him a Tivo in the first place?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

bareyb said:


> Can you clarify exactly what they should have done to make you happy?


I don't want to do business with a company that charges people for service they can't use. I could care less about the $12 of mine they kept and then refunded. It's just a weaselly business practice.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Darichard said:


> I don't want to do business with a company that charges people for service they can't use. I could care less about the $12 of mine they kept and then refunded. It's just a weaselly business practice.


Didn't you just post (above) that the CEO of the company told you the CSR had made a mistake about that? That indeed they do NOT charge for service you aren't using and she should have given you a pro-rated refund at the time of your call? Why are you still saying they charge for service you aren't using?


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

bareyb said:


> Didn't you just post (above) that the CEO of the company told you the CSR had made a mistake about that? That indeed they do NOT charge for service you aren't using and she should have given you a pro-rated refund at the time of your call? Why are you still saying they charge for service you aren't using?


since darichard dealt with more than one rep (and multiple posters) that acknowledged the official policy is "no partial month refunds", i'd say tivo's policy is a little more complicated than "yes" or "no" to refunding a partial month, as is being suggested.

i suspect the written policy allows them to charge the full month, and the enforced policy is to issue refunds when it's rightfully questioned (like equipment issues), so they continue to receive the extra revenue as often as possible when it isn't questioned, or when it isn't an equipment issue.

eta: tivo could have easily built an automatic refund for partial month charges into the billing system, and chose not to do so for some reason.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

So it's _officially_ their Policy, but unofficially, they can waive it if the circumstances warrant? Okay then. Thank you for the clarification. I guess if that's enough to give up TiVo for Darichard, then that is certainly his prerogative. I guess there's really nothing left to say. 

/unsubscribe


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

bareyb said:


> If the CSR had given you the Prorated refund in the first place would that have avoided all this or is there still something that you wanted that you aren't getting?





Darichard said:


> I really don't know what it is about this you guys aren't getting. It's not about my refund. It's about how they conduct business.
> 
> Most of you and I are clearly not able to discuss the same issue. I clearly haven't communicated it well.


So even if they had offered to not make you pay for service you couldn't use, you'd still have a problem with how they conduct business?



Darichard said:


> I don't want to do business with a company that charges people for service they can't use. *I could care less about the $12* of mine they kept and then refunded. It's just a weaselly business practice.


So you do care about the refund?

When did you return the Roamio?


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

This is still going on?


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

daveak said:


> This is still going on?


 Welcome to the train wreck in a time loop thread


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Come on guys/gals almost 10,000 views and 344 posts, not many Threads get to that point, and some of the comments are funny.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> I don't want to do business with a company that charges people for service they can't use. I could care less about the $12 of mine they kept and then refunded. It's just a weaselly business practice.


Yes because all of us are just constantly getting charged for Tivo service we don't use.

Luckily you uncovered this horrible abuse of the consumer. I'm sure legions of consumers will be boycotting Tivo. Welcome to NoTivocommunity.com.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

lessd said:


> Come on guys/gals almost 10,000 views and 344 posts, not many Threads get to that point, and some of the comments are funny.


It took that many posts to figure out what the OP was actually upset about. I'm still not entirely sure... but I *think* it's because they wouldn't give him a refund.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

bareyb said:


> It took that many posts to figure out what the OP was actually upset about. I'm still not entirely sure... but I *think* it's because they wouldn't give him a refund.


You still care after over 300 posts


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> So even if they had offered to not make you pay for service you couldn't use, you'd still have a problem with how they conduct business?
> 
> So you do care about the refund?


When did you return the Roamio?[/QUOTE]
You are just determined to make this be about what you want it to be about, aren't you? I never asked for a refund and could care less. Getting the money back or not makes no difference to me.



scandia101 said:


> Seems to me you (and others) can't get your head around the fact that it's about how they do business, not what was done to me. I really don't care about the $12.


What possible difference could that make? Currently using Windows Media Center, which is not nearly as nice as the Roamio. But quite usable.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> You are just determined to make this be about what you want it to be about, aren't you? I never asked for a refund and could care less. Getting the money back or not makes no difference to me.
> 
> What possible difference could that make? Currently using Windows Media Center, which is not nearly as nice as the Roamio. But quite usable.


The problem is that you keep saying it's not about the refund, but it clearly is. We know you don't care about the money, but they only thing that tivo seems to have done wrong is not offer to prorate your service at the time you cancelled. That means they didn't offer you a refund. *This is absolutely about a refund* so stop saying it's not.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Darichard said:


> scandia101 said:
> 
> 
> > Seems to me you (and others) can't get your head around the fact that it's about how they do business, not what was done to me. I really don't care about the $12.
> ...


and why are you quoting yourself and putting my name on it with a link to a post of mine that does not contain any form of the quoted text?


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> The problem is that you keep saying it's not about the refund, but it clearly is. We know you don't care about the money, but they only thing that tivo seems to have done wrong is not offer to prorate your service at the time you cancelled. That means they didn't offer you a refund. *This is absolutely about a refund* so stop saying it's not.


It's not. It's about their practice of charging people after the box has been shut off. You know, you keep wanting to tell me what it's about. I see no evidence that you're trying to understand what I'm saying. No offense intended, but I don't see the point in conversing (virtually) with you any longer.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> and why are you quoting yourself and putting my name on it with a link to a post of mine that does not contain any form of the quoted text?


Obviously was trying to multiple quotes from you a messed it up.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> It's not. It's about their practice of charging people after the box has been shut off. You know, you keep wanting to tell me what it's about. I see no evidence that you're trying to understand what I'm saying. No offense intended, but I don't see the point in conversing (virtually) with you any longer.


They charged you before the box was shut off though.

You just think that they should charge per day instead instead of per month.

I bet they probably never bothered to change from an automatic per month billing/refund system because there just was never a need given the relatively small monthly charge, the fact that your Tivo downloads guide data ahead of time and the fact that any cancellations are a very rare affair in the lifecyle of any Tivo user. I wouldn't doubt if they are running the same backend billing system as 10+ years ago. They haven't exactly been rolling in the money over those 10 years.

And so if you want something outside of what they do you have to ask for it. Policies and really procedures, as this is more of a procedure, aren't always up to date in any corporation.

Billing by the month is nothing egregious though. Not getting a pro-rated refund of a billing month is a trivial rounding issue given the amount, context and very rare frequency in which it would occur.

Never mind that once this happened once you would know to cancel before the beginning of the month. Never mind that then you could get one back over on Tivo by enjoying guide data for a week or two free of charge.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Darichard said:


> I sent an email to the CEO's office. Got a very quick reply [...] I replied and told them I was not asking for a refund, but for a clarification on their policy. Got an answer today


Who did the reply come from? Think it was senior support team folks? I can't imagine Tom Rogers gets in the weeds.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

davezatz said:


> Who did the reply come from? Think it was senior support team folks? I can't imagine Tom Rogers gets in the weeds.


No, of course not. I assumed this was fairly common knowledge - perhaps not. When you go through the CEO's office you saying one of several things: It could be a policy issue. It could be you're angry and frustrated with customer service. It could you want to avoid red tape. Or it could be you're just a nut job. (See below for an explanation of how I know this.)

I'm in #1 (policy issue). I don't know of any company (at least not TiVo sized or larger where the CEO could would read all the customer complaints that come to them.) Could they do it occasionally? Sure. Regularly. No way. Their assistant (or one of their assistants) will read them. Some will go to the CEO. It would be very, very rare for a CEO to reply. It typically gets handed off to customer support or another department as appropriate. (Read an article a while back about Bezos at Amazon doing this.)

I heard back from a customer support person both times. Not surprising, and I have no issue with that whatsoever. I had no expectation of hearing from the CEO.

I think I mentioned previously that I work for a fortune 100 company. To the observant, that should (maybe) mean something. I've been there ~20 years, and have worked all over the company, including customer support. I never worked the phones - my role was to help manage and drive an support org. I get how it works, and I get how they are limited and how policy drives how they respond. Of course, I have no business acumen, so I could be completely wrong.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Darichard said:


> No, of course not. I assumed this was fairly common knowledge - perhaps not. When you go through the CEO's office you saying one of several things: It could be a policy issue. It could be you're angry and frustrated with customer service. It could you want to avoid red tape. Or it could be you're just a nut job.


Not necessarily. TiVo's not a very large company so they may very well respond to an agitated customer from a high level. While maybe not commonplace, I wouldn't say executive communication is exactly rare. But Tom Rogers doesn't strike me as that type. For comparison, my buddy emailed Jon Rubinstein while he was CEO at Palm and he responded directly. And I do know of at least four TiVo employees, VP or higher but who are not Tom Rogers, that chit chat with customers/members of the forum.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

davezatz said:


> Not necessarily. TiVo's not a very large company so they may very well respond to an agitated customer from a high level. While maybe not commonplace, I wouldn't say executive communication is exactly rare. But Tom Rogers doesn't strike me as that type. For comparison, my buddy emailed Jon Rubinstein while he was CEO at Palm and he responded directly. And I do know of at least four TiVo employees, VP or higher but who are not Tom Rogers, that chit chat with customers/members of the forum.


Good point, and I get that TiVo is relatively small. I still would not have expected to hear from the CEO, especially on this issue, which is not an issue at all. I wrote it as a question and was seeking clarification.

I get your Palm example, and it could be Jon R replied himself. It's typical that these comms from a CEO are written by somebody else for a variety of reasons, but largely due to time constraints.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

So did you ever leave TiVo? or are you still using a TiVo DVR?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> So did you ever leave TiVo? or are you still using a TiVo DVR?


Do you really want that question answered ??


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

lessd said:


> Do you really want that question answered ??


At this point I have no idea what happened.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> At this point I have no idea what happened.


Does anyone?


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

NorthAlabama said:


> *I suspect the written policy allows them to charge the full month, and the enforced policy is to issue refunds when it's rightfully questioned (like equipment issues)*, so they continue to receive the extra revenue as often as possible when it isn't questioned, or when it isn't an equipment issue.
> 
> *eta: tivo could have easily built an automatic refund for partial month charges into the billing system, and chose not to do so for some reason.*


Is this correct? TiVo's _official_ policy is not to prorate, but will do so on a case by case basis? If so, THAT is Darichard's problem. He would prefer that it be done automatically as in NA's eta. For better or worse, THAT is why he says he will be leaving TiVo. I think that pretty much wraps it up unless Darichard has a further clarification.

*In a nutshell: Darichard feels that an automatic refund should be given for partial month usage and that it should not have to be asked for or escalated in order to obtain it.*


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

bareyb said:


> Is this correct? TiVo's _official_ policy is not to prorate, but will do so on a case by case basis? If so, THAT is Darichard's problem. He would prefer that it be done automatically as in NA's eta. For better or worse, THAT is why he says he will be leaving TiVo. I think that pretty much wraps it up unless Darichard has a further clarification.
> 
> *In a nutshell: Darichard feels that an automatic refund should be given for partial month usage and that it should not have to be asked for or escalated in order to obtain it.*


Well yeah but he said that in the original post and it went on 13 pages. 

Obviously the issue isn't why HE says he quit.

The issue was always why quit over that.


----------



## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Darichard said:


> Preface: I've had a TiVos since 2001. I had a couple of original TiVo. I had two or three DirecTiVos. I had a TiVo HD. And perhaps another couple in there over the years. The point is, I'm a long time and loyal TiVo customer.
> 
> The other day my HD locked at the startup screen. Almost certainly a bad hard drive, or perhaps a bad power supply. I considered fixing it, then considered my time constraints, and decided to buy a Roamio. I figured I get the latest version and can fix my HD when I have more time.
> 
> ...





trip1eX said:


> W*ell yeah but he said that in the original post* and it went on 13 pages.
> 
> Obviously the issue isn't why HE says he quit.
> 
> The issue was always why quit over that.


Not really... Go back and read it. He rambles on for quite a while and towards the end, was kind of contradicting himself by saying he "didn't want anything back" and then convolutes it further by saying he could almost understand the policy if he hadn't bought an activated a new Roamio... Which really has no bearing on anything... I think if he'd just said what I said (that TiVo needs to change their written policy for him to stay), in the OP, this thread wouldn't be as long.

But I agree. It's a silly reason to give up TiVo over this, especially considering they have already given him everything he originally wanted. I guess for him to stay they need to change their written Policy. Which has about as much chance of happening as him getting another brand of DVR. I'm guessing he was just venting and will eventually go back to using his TiVo or will use no DVR at all.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

bareyb said:


> Not really... Go back and read it. He rambles on for quite a while and towards the end, was kind of contradicting himself by saying he "didn't want anything back" and then convolutes it further by saying he could almost understand the policy if he hadn't bought an activated a new Roamio... Which really has no bearing on anything... I think if he'd just said what I said (that TiVo needs to change their written policy for him to stay), in the OP, this thread wouldn't be as long.


Not sure why this is so hard to get. I don't care about the money. I don't want to do business with a company that charges for service that can't be used. No contradiction.

To be blunt, I have to wonder if most of are struggling with the fact that my issue is based on a principle and not how I was harmed personally. This seems to be elusive to many of you. Perhaps I'm wrong.



bareyb said:


> But I agree. It's a silly reason to give up TiVo over this, especially considering they have already given him everything he originally wanted. I guess for him to stay they need to change their written Policy. Which has about as much chance of happening as him getting another brand of DVR. I'm guessing he was just venting and will eventually go back to using his TiVo or will use no DVR at all.


The chance of them changing their policy is irrelevant. I can only change what is in my control.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Darichard said:


> Not sure why this is so hard to get. I don't care about the money. I don't want to do business with a company that charges for service that can't be used. No contradiction.
> 
> To be blunt, I have to wonder if most of are struggling with the fact that my issue is based on a principle and not how I was harmed personally. This seems to be elusive to many of you. Perhaps I'm wrong.
> 
> *The chance of them changing their policy is irrelevant. I can only change what is in my control.*


You see? It's statements like that one that invite argument and have kept this ridiculous thread going for so long. You do a very poor job of conveying any type of clear message of where you are coming from. There's a contradiction within that very statement you just made. Of _course_ you care if they change their Policy... Are you saying you only care because it happened to YOU and to hell with anyone else they have ever screwed or will ever screw again? Is that really the pillion of principle you want to hang your hat on? Seems rather petty when you frame it that way. But whatever... I'm done with this discussion. The only question I have left is if you have returned your Roamio and what brand of DVR are you planning to get instead?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

bareyb said:


> Not really... Go back and read it. He rambles on for quite a while and towards the end, was kind of contradicting himself by saying he "didn't want anything back" and then convolutes it further by saying he could almost understand the policy if he hadn't bought an activated a new Roamio... Which really has no bearing on anything... I think if he'd just said what I said (that TiVo needs to change their written policy for him to stay), in the OP, this thread wouldn't be as long.


The new Tivo just means he wasn't canceling service. He was continuing service just on a new box. Even more reason he shouldn't be charged for the whole month on the old box that he's canceling.

He said he "wasn't asking for anything back." You said he thought "a refund shouldn't have to be asked for." Same thing.

The issue is no big deal on its own. It's the quitting over it that makes everyone pause and say, "huh?"


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

bareyb said:


> You see? It's statements like that one that invite argument and have kept this ridiculous thread going for so long.


It helps the thread to have an OP so earnest and unaware he's overeacting.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I cancelled my Netflix disc service recently . They did not prorate my charges. They only said that it would end at the end of my billing cycle. I had no choice . The only option I had was to stop them from sending me any more discs. But nothing about giving me a prorated refund.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

bareyb said:


> You see? It's statements like that one that invite argument and have kept this ridiculous thread going for so long. You do a very poor job of conveying any type of clear message of where you are coming from. There's a contradiction within that very statement you just made. Of _course_ you care if they change their Policy... Are you saying you only care because it happened to YOU and to hell with anyone else they have ever screwed or will ever screw again? Is that really the pillion of principle you want to hang your hat on? Seems rather petty when you frame it that way. But whatever... I'm done with this discussion. The only question I have left is if you have returned your Roamio and what brand of DVR are you planning to get instead?


The really weird part is why this bothers you so much. Why do you really care why he wants to drop service?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mschnebly said:


> The really weird part is why this bothers you so much. Why do you really care why he wants to drop service?


Ah come on, what would you do to keep this Thread going, we could try to solve the Israel Gaza conflict, that would keep this Thread going for the next few 100 years.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

aaronwt said:


> I cancelled my Netflix disc service recently . They did not prorate my charges. They only said that it would end at the end of my billing cycle. I had no choice . The only option I had was to stop them from sending me any more discs. But nothing about giving me a prorated refund.


already discussed a few hundred posts ago, and not an accurate comparison. if you were moving, changed your address, and netflix charged you for the rest of the month for your old address, plus started new charges for your new address, you'd come closer to what happened to the op.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

This is still going on?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

daveak said:


> This is still going on?


YES


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

bareyb said:


> You see? It's statements like that one that invite argument and have kept this ridiculous thread going for so long. You do a very poor job of conveying any type of clear message of where you are coming from. There's a contradiction within that very statement you just made. Of _course_ you care if they change their Policy... Are you saying you only care because it happened to YOU and to hell with anyone else they have ever screwed or will ever screw again? Is that really the pillion of principle you want to hang your hat on? Seems rather petty when you frame it that way. But whatever... I'm done with this discussion. The only question I have left is if you have returned your Roamio and what brand of DVR are you planning to get instead?


I didn't say changing their policy was irrelevant. I said the CHANCE of them doing so was irreverent, which was point made by somebody else that I was addressing. It's not about me getting $12 back. It's about how the run their business and treat customers. Is there a 10% chance they'll change their behavior or policy based on my actions? Is there a 0.00001% chance? I don't care - it's irrelevant. Where is the contradiction?

I know you said you're done, and I respect that. But I'd really like to understand where I'm being contradictory.

There are two things that are keeping this thread going: people asking me for clarification on the same points that have have already been clarified many times. And the second is people asking "is this still going on?" I can only hope they are doing so sardonically.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

NorthAlabama said:


> already discussed a few hundred posts ago, and not an accurate comparison. if you were moving, changed your address, and netflix charged you for the rest of the month for your old address, plus started new charges for your new address, you'd come closer to what happened to the op.


I see no difference. The OP cancelled and wanted a prorated refund. I cancelled Netflix and did not get a prorated refund. I see zero difference. That is if someone wants their service to end on the day they cancel. And the Netflix Service was $15 a month, more than TiVo. I don't see a big deal personally. But the OP had an issue with it for some strange reason.

Besides, anyone keeping track of things they pay for would just cancel near the end of their billing cycle. Which is what I did with Netflix. And would be the same thing I would do if I cancelled TiVo sevice on a monthly subscription.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

NorthAlabama said:


> already discussed a few hundred posts ago, and not an accurate comparison. if you were moving, changed your address, and netflix charged you for the rest of the month for your old address, plus started new charges for your new address, you'd come closer to what happened to the op.


If I moved, opened a new Netflix account at the new address, and then went back and wanted them to cancel the old one and pro-rate it or transfer it to the new address...

Let's not forget the order he did things in. It is relevant to the discussion, and continuously glossing over it is muddying things.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> I see no difference. The OP cancelled and wanted a prorated refund. I cancelled Netflix and did not get a prorated refund. I see zero difference.


The difference is that I wasn't cancelling service. One machine was dead and I got a new one. There is no equivalent in the Netflix model. Imagine that you moved and when you changed your address you were told you needed to pay for a month of service on the old address and a month on the new one.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> Let's not forget the order he did things in. It is relevant to the discussion, and continuously glossing over it is muddying things.


I know, right? He's such an idiotic moron!

And you (and others) are continuously making personal attacks and suggesting I should have known better. Most of us don't live on this site and don't know there are alternate ways to get things done. I read the information available and I did what I could on the web site. Please show me where I'm muddying things (your implication is that I'm doing so intentionally) and I'll clear it up.

And had I known then what I know now, I would have done it differently. I went to the web site and tried my best to get a TiVo going online. As I mentioned, I work long hours and I travel. Making a call during during the day is sometimes just not possible. "Why didn't you just call." It may be hard for you to imagine, but often I just can't make a call during they day.

Could I have done it differently? Sure. Could TiVo's instructions, direction, and intent be more clear? Absolutely.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> Most of us don't live on this site and don't know there are alternate ways to get things done.


Were you born yesterday?

Because, unless you were, you knew the alternate way to get things done was to actually ask for the refund you wanted. OR ask to talk with a manager to resolve your issue.

But instead you ask for nothing. You play the passive aggressive game with the minimum wage CSR. And then quit over ~$10.

Then profess how much you loved Tivo and think they are the best and it wasn't about the money.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

daveak said:


> This is still going on?


Yes !! But almost 12,000 views and getting close to 400 posts, only 20 more to go to get to the 400 mark, over a $10 to $12 dispute.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Were you born yesterday?
> 
> Because, unless you were, you knew the alternate way to get things done was to actually ask for the refund you wanted. OR ask to talk with a manager to resolve your issue.
> 
> ...


Have you ever seen the Abbot and Costello bit called "Who's on First?" I feel like we're having the conversation. It's not about the $10. I could care less about the $10. If I cared about the $10 and really wanted it back I of course would have talked to a manager.

My issue is not about me being charged. It's about how TiVo does business. I get that you don't get it (and won't).


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> Have you ever seen the Abbot and Costello bit called "Who's on First?" I feel like we're having the conversation. It's not about the $10. I could care less about the $10. If I cared about the $10 and really wanted it back I of course would have talked to a manager.
> 
> My issue is not about me being charged. It's about how TiVo does business. I get that you don't get it (and won't).


 Talk about having conversations over and over. You just told me it isn't about the $10 in response to me saying that's your position.

But if there was no money involved there wouldn't be an issue now would there be? No.

Have you heard of the river in Egypt that's the longest river in the world? You're in that river.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Talk about having conversations over and over. You just told me it isn't about the $10 in response to me saying that's your position.
> 
> But if there was no money involved there wouldn't be an issue now would there be? No.
> 
> Have you heard of the river in Egypt that's the longest river in the world? You're in that river.


What are you blathering about (again). It's not about me getting charged $10. It's about their business model and they fact that the charge people for two TiVos when they're using only one. If this didn't happen to I'd still have an issue with it. What about this do you not get?

Already mentioned this, but will do so again to try and make a point (not sure why, since you're clearly incapable of getting it): I refused to ever shop at Walmart based on their treatment of Vlassic as a supplier. I don't even eat Vlassic pickles. Based on your responses here you would seemingly argue that I have some some of pickle issue, or some other nonsense. It's not about Vlassic or the pickles I eat. It's about their business practices.

Last word can be yours. Done trying to communicate with you.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Darichard said:


> What are you blathering about (again). It's not about me getting charged $10. It's about their business model and they fact that the charge people for two TiVos when they're using only one. If this didn't happen to I'd still have an issue with it. What about this do you not get?
> 
> Already mentioned this, but will do so again to try and make a point (not sure why, since you're clearly incapable of getting it): I refused to ever shop at Walmart based on their treatment of Vlassic as a supplier. I don't even eat Vlassic pickles. Based on your responses here you would seemingly argue that I have some some of pickle issue, or some other nonsense. It's not about Vlassic or the pickles I eat. It's about their business practices.
> 
> Last word can be yours. Done trying to communicate with you.


I'm sure an issue could be found with a very large percentage of businesses. I'm personally not going to stop doing business at every one because of it. Especailly for a large company like Walmart. Walmart saves me too much money to stop doing business with them because of how they treat one company. Besides doing that will make absolutely no difference in the big picture. And in the end it would only hurt me. It certainly would not hurt Walmart.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> I'm sure an issue could be found with a very large percentage of businesses. I'm personally not going to stop doing business at every one because of it. Especailly for a large company like Walmart. Walmart saves me too much money to stop doing business with them because of how they treat one company. Besides doing that will make absolutely no difference in the big picture. And in the end it would only hurt me. It certainly would not hurt Walmart.


The issue is sometimes called economic warfare and it usually does not work if done by individuals, sometimes it does not work even if done by countries, but if it makes someone feel better the extra money it may cost them may be OK.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> What are you blathering about (again). It's not about me getting charged $10. It's about their business model and they fact that the charge people for two TiVos when they're using only one. If this didn't happen to I'd still have an issue with it. What about this do you not get?


If there wasn't money involved there wouldn't be an issue.

Your issue is the amt of money they billed you for your last month of service. You thought it should have been about $10 less.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

If I broke my cellphone, I wouldn't go buy a new one, set up new service on it, and then complain that I was paying for service on two phones a couple months later.

I would transfer the service to the new phone when I bought it, and be done.

Why would a monthly subscription on another device like a TiVo be any different?

And you claim you don't want to do business with a company that would do something you agreed to in 2008. So you did do business with them.

Whatever.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Arcady said:


> If I broke my cellphone, I wouldn't go buy a new one, set up new service on it, and then complain that I was paying for service on two phones a couple months later.
> 
> I would transfer the service to the new phone when I bought it, and be done.
> 
> ...


Another person who apparently has not read my posts. You really expect me to have anticipated that TiVo would charge me for a month of service on a device that was disconnected (and dead)? And you expect to me to have remembered the details of that from 2008?

I don't get your cell phone analogy at all. Last year I broke my cell phone. I bought a new one on Amazon. When it got here, I went online and transferred the service to my new phone. So no, I would not have expected to be charger for both phones.

The only exception to this would be if I was getting service from two different companies and I didn't inform the first one.

If you're implying that you would pay for service for two phones on the same account when one was dead and you had replaced it, that's an absurd assertion.


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## Krandor (Jun 10, 2004)

Just found this thread. geeze. Since this is such an epic thread need to throw in my 2 cents.

So based on what I've head the basic policy of TiVo is to not pro-rate refund after cancellation but the customer still gets the use of the subscription for the time they have paid for. However, the CSRs can override that policy on a case-by-case basis and I think a dead TiVo that can't use the service for the rest of the billing period would certainly be a case where that should be applied. IMO, The OP got a bad CSR who didn't override the normal policy in a situation where they should have due to the TiVo being bad. I personally wouldn't blame the whole company for that, but the bad CSR who had the power to do something in a special case and didn't.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

Darichard said:


> Another person who apparently has not read my posts. You really expect me to have anticipated that TiVo would charge me for a month of service on a device that was disconnected (and dead)? And you expect to me to have remembered the details of that from 2008?
> 
> I don't get your cell phone analogy at all. Last year I broke my cell phone. I bought a new one on Amazon. When it got here, I went online and transferred the service to my new phone. So no, I would not have expected to be charger for both phones.
> 
> ...


After spending WAY more time than I care to admit reading this thread, let me be the first to say you ae NOT going to make anyone understand or agree with your principles.

I get it, I really do, I too have left for greener pastures, just don't expect to get any sympathy from the regulars here. It should be obvious by now.

Flame away!


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

And yet another page.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

daveak said:


> This is still going on?


AH *yes!!*


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> let me be the first to say you ae NOT going to make anyone understand or agree with your principles.


You're not the first to say this, and I get it. This is a mob mentality and I'll keep answering questions and responding to comments as long as they keep asking.

Thanks for the note, and I get that they don't get it or just disagree. That's fine. I am somewhat amused with the lack of logic demonstrated and the red herring arguments being used to disprove my point (most recently the mobile phone example).


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## timchi29 (Feb 26, 2005)

Is there really 395 posts on this topic!


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Darichard said:


> You really expect me to have anticipated that TiVo would charge me for a month of service on a device that was disconnected (and dead)? And you expect to me to have remembered the details of that from 2008?


There are many reasons other than hardware failure for a tivo be disconnected. Tivo had no way of knowing that your Tivo died, unless you notified them and cancelled your service.



Darichard said:


> I don't get your cell phone analogy at all. Last year I broke my cell phone. I bought a new one on Amazon. When it got here, I went online and transferred the service to my new phone. So no, I would not have expected to be charger for both phones.


Had you followed the same process with tivo you would have had the same result. I'm sure the phone company would not have resolved this issue any differently if you left your broken phone active and activated your new phone.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

This Thread is like the *energizer bunny*, but it has to run out of power sometime as we get to the 398th post.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Well Stream is finally coming to Android so that will be one less reason to be "Done with TiVo".


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## caughey (May 26, 2007)

Guinness World Records called and said this thread has beat the world record--both in duration and number of posts--for a "don't let your ass hit the door on your way out" thread.

Also, PETA is protesting that we are still beating this dead horse.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Maybe there should be a "done with this thread" thread.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Brand new to this forum, and reading this thread is very entertaining. I can't believe, over a *few dollars, *someone would have spent what must have been hours and hours of posting on a forum devoted to a product that he no longer has or uses, to try and prove some non-sensical point. It's like watching someone leaving a party because he felt he wasn't welcomed, and at the door, he keeps yelling " I'm going, that's it , I'm leaving" over and over again. And all the rest of the guests at the party are totally ignoring him..


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> Brand new to this forum, and reading this thread is very entertaining. I can't believe, over a *few dollars, *someone would have spent what must have been hours and hours of posting on a forum devoted to a product that he no longer has or uses, to try and prove some non-sensical point. It's like watching someone leaving a party because he felt he wasn't welcomed, and at the door, he keeps yelling " I'm going, that's it , I'm leaving" over and over again. And all the rest of the guests at the party are totally ignoring him..


You did not ignore him and now when I though this Thread was done its head is raised once more.


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## HenryFarpolo (Dec 1, 2008)

People keep feeding the bear and wondering why it won't go away!!


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## flashedbios (Dec 7, 2012)

Darichard said:


> Preface: I've had a TiVos since 2001. I had a couple of original TiVo. I had two or three DirecTiVos. I had a TiVo HD. And perhaps another couple in there over the years. The point is, I'm a long time and loyal TiVo customer.
> 
> The other day my HD locked at the startup screen. Almost certainly a bad hard drive, or perhaps a bad power supply. I considered fixing it, then considered my time constraints, and decided to buy a Roamio. I figured I get the latest version and can fix my HD when I have more time.
> 
> ...


Oh no! Poor little rich guy who can afford to instantly replace his broken TiVo had to make a phone call to cancel his old box. You know, you should consider yourself lucky that you can afford to buy a TiVo instantly like that. I have two premieres ONLY because of the zero down offer. Never in my life have I had or will I have a paycheck large enough to cover my living expenses AND the cost of a TiVo. The only time of the year I could do that is tax refund time. If my TiVo broke, and I didn't posess the knowledge to fix it (which I do), then I would just have to go without watching TV until some extra money came my way (christmas gifts, tax refund, illegal money making scheme, etc). So maybe you should come down off your horse and realize that what happened is policy, pretty standard in the industry of monthly services really, and enjoy your TiVo. Or yes, you could take all that hoity toity rich money of yours and waste it on WMC..


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Boy, that was a useful post that really contributed to the discussion. I am super glad flashedbios came here to make it. Post of the year.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> Boy, that was a useful post that really contributed to the discussion. I am super glad flashedbios came here to make it. Post of the year.


And keep this Thread going


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Wow! 408 posts now! I don't plan to be done with TiVo anytime soon though.


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## christheman (Feb 21, 2013)

409 posts. I would still be using a Tivo if I were still using cable. I liked it for as long as I was using it. My parents enjoy the Romio at their place. My changeover from cable to satellite mandated different DVR equipment. The choice with Directv was between an older implementation of Tivo, or the Directv brand Genie, which is their latest model and comparable to the Romio in different ways.

So I keep up with these threads as there is still common ground.

I think if I were to start a thread over a business question or issue, I would maybe limit it to 2 or 3 posts on my part and exit after I got the answer to my question or made my point. But every forum on the internet has its organic home-grown pet peeves so to speak. I have seen some good ones.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Can we just be done with this thread?


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Can we just be done with this thread?


Not till I spend some more time mocking flashedbios for maybe the worst post I've ever had the misfortune of reading.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> Not till I spend some more time mocking flashedbios for maybe the worst post I've ever had the misfortune of reading.


And when may that be ??


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

just to dig up the horse, flog it and then rebury it


I just recently got a Roamio with the lifetime deal so I am back. 

When looking at roamio I had a dead DVR that still had the old monthly rate of 6.95 on it. Talked to TiVo that I might put a Roamio on that once that got android streaming out - they agreed to suspend billing on that DVR tillOctober. 3 month grace - 10 minute call.

I just now called TiVo to cancel that dead one and the old series 2 the roamio was pushing off the shelf. That is right I was cancelling two TiVo DVRs - one at 12.95 a month. The call took 10 minutes, the guy noted I had been with TiVo for 9 years and processed my request without a bit of problem.


so yes, either de-activate or cancel (it is the same thing really, the OP is the one parsing a little too closely) you call in and as the customer it is on you to get what you want. I can see being annoyed at the billing mistake but I bet another 10 minute call and all is well again.

so the whole idea of "loyal customer" but some minor billing snafu and I throw TiVo out and deal with whatever second tier option I can get -- makes me laugh like I had never left this forum a couple years ago.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> .......... makes me laugh like I had never left this forum a couple years ago.


Actually almost exactly **three** years ago! (Your last post before today was 9/8/2011.) I remember sparring with you on various issues -- I think. Welcome back!

I like the "cat in the hat".

Geez, I just realized that by posting this I'm exposed as still looking at this stupid thread! I skipped it for a month or more ... honest!


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dlfl said:


> Actually almost exactly **three** years ago! (Your last post before today was 9/8/2011.) I remember sparring with you on various issues -- I think. Welcome back!
> 
> I like the "cat in the hat".
> 
> Geez, I just realized that by posting this I'm exposed as still looking at this stupid thread! I skipped it for a month or more ... honest!


The energizer bunny is alive and well, it will never die


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I just recently got a Roamio with the lifetime deal so I am back.


And just to derail this thread, why did you leave? 

Scott


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dlfl said:


> Actually almost exactly **three** years ago! (Your last post before today was 9/8/2011.) I remember sparring with you on various issues -- I think. Welcome back!
> 
> I like the "cat in the hat".
> 
> Geez, I just realized that by posting this I'm exposed as still looking at this stupid thread! I skipped it for a month or more ... honest!


right back to my old tricks of messing with folks 



HerronScott said:


> And just to derail this thread, why did you leave?
> 
> Scott


because of people like dlfl 

no actually, TiVo was standing still for a while and I had no need to be in the forum -- now I have a roamio, did the priority list and waiting for news of getting offical android streaming app update -- and this weekend will add DLNA/Plex to my roamio - thanks to the useful stuff found in this forum


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Welcome back.

You can be done with TiVo, but you should never leave.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

daveak said:


> Welcome back.
> 
> You can be done with TiVo, but you should never leave.


Oh I have had 5 TiVo DVRs recording away and giving me great value while I was gone. The tech was stagnant for a bit though, so no real need to post or read about it. Now the Roamio has finally brought out some new tech. :up:


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Oh I have had 5 TiVo DVRs recording away and giving me great value while I was gone. The tech was stagnant for a bit though, so no real need to post or read about it. Now the Roamio has finally brought out some new tech. :up:


That was over a year ago. The Roamio came out in August 2013


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> That was over a year ago. The Roamio came out in August 2013


waited for a good deal - took the 200$ off of lifetime deal so I had one I could talk about.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

flashedbios said:


> Oh no! Poor little rich guy who can afford to instantly replace his broken TiVo had to make a phone call to cancel his old box. <snipped>


Oh my. I really thought I'd gotten it from all sides. Now I'm accused of being rich. I do make a good living, and I can afford a TiVo and other stuff I want.

Nobody handed me a job or a career. f you are unhappy with how you make a living, I suggest you work on changing it rather than hurling insults at me.

FYI, I don't take anything I have for granted. I am one layoff away from being in trouble. Like many people, I have to worry about the future and consider my options carefully. A good friend of mine at the same company got laid off a few months ago. Very bright, very talented guy. It's not going well for him.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

I just wanted to be a part of this important thread.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

What the hell. I'm back in! What's the latest?


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Darichard said:


> Oh my. I really thought I'd gotten it from all sides. Now I'm accused of being rich. I do make a good living, and I can afford a TiVo and other stuff I want.
> 
> Nobody handed me a job or a career. f you are unhappy with how you make a living, I suggest you work on changing it rather than hurling insults at me.
> 
> FYI, I don't take anything I have for granted. I am one layoff away from being in trouble. Like many people, I have to worry about the future and consider my options carefully. A good friend of mine at the same company got laid off a few months ago. Very bright, very talented guy. It's not going well for him.





Darichard said:


> The next day I started an online chat with TiVo. (Note that the chat instructions clearly state that you can't cancel your account via chat.) The nice person on chat would not help me. When I asked why, he told me that he can't de-activate via chat. He then told me is states this clearly. I told him it does not, and that de-activation is not the same as cancelling. He politely told me he could not help me and that I needed to call.
> 
> Now I'm annoyed. Don't tell me the chat instructions say what they don't say. I'm neither blind nor hard of reading.


Tivo had no way of knowing that you were buying a new Tivo as a replacement for your old Tivo and the new Tivo is not eligible for the same subscription pricing as your old Tivo. Tivo had no way of knowing that your old Tivo was dead. Everyone would claim retroactive death of their Tivo to save money, if Tivo changed their policy, because there is no way to verify the death of a Tivo remotely.

As for your claim that you can cancel a Tivo online, the Tivo website states the exact opposite.

https://www.tivo.com/my-account/cancel

We currently don't offer the ability to cancel service online. To cancel your service, please call our 
customer service department between 7am-7pm PT M-F and 8am-6pm PT Sat & Sun at 
1-877-367-8486, and select option 2.

I think if you behaved this way at your high paying job, then you might find yourself unemployed very quickly.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Will this Thread ever die??? I don't think anybody can post anything useful that has not already been posted about this subject.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

lessd said:


> Will this Thread ever die??? I don't think anybody can post anything useful that has not already been posted about this subject.


+1


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Exactly what was ever posted in this thread that was useful? The rants of a self-absorbed obsessive, or pointless responses of those of us who were so self-deluded as to placate or reason with him? No, as it says on the box, this is for amusement purposes only!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> Exactly what was ever posted in this thread that was useful?


that cancel and de-activate are the same thing essentially and in any case you have to call the phone number to stop paying TiVo for a sub


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Okay, that is useful information, although anyone who ever tried to quit a cable company should be familiar with the easy-in/hard-out principle.

Is it worth fifteen pages to find out?


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

It's been days now. Is everyone else missing this thread as much as I am?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> It's been days now. Is everyone else missing this thread as much as I am?


Can't people leave this Thread, I guess not

Do I have the last post ??? that would be great with my name on the last post for this Thread, but I don't think others can resist as nobody will leave me with the last word.

PS I only posted because somebody posted today.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Number 433!!!!

No I'm not done with my Tivos! Although I did clean house in preparation for the new Season of TV shows. I got my Roamio Pro down from 95% to 40%.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I AM DONE WITH TIVO















on analog at least 
my roamio is chugging along now and recording all in digital and with 6 tuners what a joy to just fire up a season pass for a new show without consulting some spreadsheet on which TiVo has an open recording slot 

So I dropped some monthly subs on old series 2 TiVo DVRs to the tune of 20$ a month and my lifetime roamio is just making me happy


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

How did I ever miss this super-important thread? I feel left out.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

ncted said:


> How did I ever miss this super-important thread? I feel left out.


But now you have found it and become part of history. Your parents will be so proud!


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

I like cheese.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends. Some people started reading it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue posting here forever, just because this is the thread that never ends ...


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## HenryFarpolo (Dec 1, 2008)

I think we should start a new thread;

"I'm done with the I'm done with TIVO thread"


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

unitron said:


> This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends. Some people started reading it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue posting here forever, just because this is the thread that never ends ...


This reminds me of another thread that just won't die, has been going on for eleven years, and has 1049 posts right now:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=116633
However even that thread doesn't have as much bickering as this one and contains much more constructive discussion.

As for the longevity record, this thread has a long way to go!


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dlfl said:


> This reminds me of another thread that just won't die, has been going on for eleven years, and has 1049 posts right now:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=116633
> However even that thread doesn't have as much bickering as this one and contains much more constructive discussion.
> 
> As for the longevity record, this thread has a long way to go!


Let keep chugging on, only 609 more posts to go.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

I far prefer this thread. Although younger and thinner, this thread is completely without any redeeming significance. I hereby pledge to continue my policy of making no contribution to it which is either useful, interesting or significant.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I like cheese.


Swiss, provolone, havarti, toe, Frumunda? Anything with it like a good wine, crackers, strawberries?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

I think we need to start making plans for 

Done with TiVo--The Musical!


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

HarperVision said:


> Swiss, provolone, havarti, toe, Frumunda? Anything with it like a good wine, crackers, strawberries?


Sweet dreams are made of cheese. Who am I to diss a brie? I cheddar the world and the feta cheese. Everybody's looking for Stilton.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

ej42137 said:


> I far prefer this thread. Although younger and thinner, this thread is completely without any redeeming significance. I hereby pledge to continue my policy of making no contribution to it which is either useful, interesting or significant.


I support the esteemed member from Los Angeles


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Sweet dreams are made of cheese. Who am I to diss a brie? I cheddar the world and the feta cheese. Everybody's looking for Stilton.


Big loud groan!!! 

Scott


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

lessd said:


> Let keep chugging on, only 609 more posts to go.


And 10+ years. But we can do it, although given my age I might not be here to see it. (BTW, that's a cheesy sympathy ploy -- I considered mentioning I have terminal cancer but some lies are beyond even me.)


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Sweet dreams are made of cheese. Who am I to diss a brie? I cheddar the world and the feta cheese. Everybody's looking for Stilton.


Nice! You do realize I'm going to be singing that every time I hear the real song now, right? 

I guess that should be the theme song for unitron's musical?


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

This thread is Grate. It makes me feel Gouda 'bout myself.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

HarperVision said:


> Nice! You do realize I'm going to be singing that every time I hear the real song now, right?
> 
> I guess that should be the theme song for unitron's musical?


I thought we'd go with the one from Shari Lewis for theme, but that could be the big production number.


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

nrc said:


> I just wanted to be a part of this important thread.


Me to as well as up my post count.


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

kokishin said:


> Me to as well as up my post count.


Oops! I had a typo. I know I could edit my prior post but this way I get another post in.

Meant to type:
Me too as well as up my post count.


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