# Account Status........ Closed



## babycakes (Oct 18, 2010)

When the account status is closed, will the Tivo still do manual recordings as if it was an unsubscribed model?


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## steveroe (Oct 29, 2002)

Yes.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Alternatively why not visit www.altepg.com then register the Tivo there and do Guided Setup to the AltEPG.

You now have a Tivo with Account Status 4:Tivo Internal Testing that to all intents and purposes is the same as a Lifetime Subbed Tivo but using a non Tivo provided EPG.

Of course any of the above is only possible because Tivo have announced the termination of their own official EPG service.


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## babycakes (Oct 18, 2010)

Thanks Pete77

So if it is possible to change the account status then if Tivo change the account status to closed then can it be changed to Internal Testing?

Where is the EPG data coming from? Does it originate from Tivo Inc?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

babycakes said:


> So if it is possible to change the account status then if Tivo change the account status to closed then can it be changed to Internal Testing?


Its probably best to ask more questions on this front over at the discussion forum at www.altepg.com but suffice it to say the AltEPG does not charge for subscriptions so hence any functionally operational UK Series One Tivo can use it. The Account Closed status on a Tivo only means that no subscription is currently in effect with Tivo Inc. Of course we would not have to be deserting Tivo Inc at all if they and their new UK Masters (think dalek or cybermen type masters given their bad behaviour towards UK Tivo S1 owners) had not demanded that we be unilaterally terminated by Tivo.



> Where is the EPG data coming from? Does it originate from Tivo Inc?


It does not originate from Tivo Inc but its best again to ask more about this over on the forums at http://www.tivoland.com/forum

Suffice it to say that the Tivo you mention should be able to work again as a fully functional Tivo with a proper EPG once the current temporary issue with the AltEPG not having enough dialup phone line capacity has been overcome.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> Of course we would not have to be deserting Tivo Inc at all if they and their new UK Masters (think dalek or cybermen type masters given their bad behaviour towards UK Tivo S1 owners) had not demanded that we be unilaterally terminated by Tivo.


Still waiting to see you produce some hard evidence to support these allegations.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Trinitron said:


> Still waiting to see you produce some hard evidence to support these allegations.


And I'm still waiting for you to produce any hard evidence whatsoever that the S1 UK Tivo service was not shut down at Virgin Media's specific insistence.

Can I take it that in a corporate environment you are one of those employees who can always be found rushing to protect the decisions of the management team no matter how bizarre or unfair? And if anyone dares to suggest what the motivations of the management team may have been some unjust action you can be heard saying "where is your evidence"?

Clearly Tivo aren't gong to freely volunteer evidence of having agreed to do something dastardly to their UK S1 customer base for the sake of a larger and more valuable contract with Virgin.

"No evidence" I hear you bleat again. I must say that if everyone was like you that the ruthless dictators of this world who always do everything to eliminate firm evidence of their misdeeds would really face a very easy time indeed.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

Trinitron said:


> Still waiting to see you produce some hard evidence to support these allegations.


I guess if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks you'd still assume it isn't a duck unless you see proof then.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Steve_K said:


> I guess if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks you'd still assume it isn't a duck unless you see proof then.


If Tivo were going to cut off service to S1 Tivo owners for cost related reasons they would have done it long ago.

The idea that if you don't live in a Virgin cabled area that you should no longer have access to Tivo Service and the constant avoidance of even talking about what happens to those of us living outside Virgin Cable land smacks all over of a Virgin inspired and controlled decision.

If this wasn't the case I would expect some public relations rep of Virgin Media to be only too eager to tell us that the closure of the S1 EPG service is entirely Tivo's own decision and had nothing whatsoever to do with Virgin Media.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> "No evidence" I hear you bleat again. I must say that if everyone was like you that the ruthless dictators of this world who always do everything to eliminate firm evidence of their misdeeds would really face a very easy time indeed.


I'll take that as a no then.


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## digital_S (May 15, 2002)

Not a good thread title! I thought at first that was TiVo getting round to closing our accounts!
Luckly another day with an active status  (not yet alt-epg)


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> If Tivo were going to cut off service to S1 Tivo owners for cost related reasons they would have done it long ago. . . .


Exactly

But seems most here are in denial on that.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> If Tivo were going to cut off service to S1 Tivo owners for cost related reasons they would have done it long ago.


Perhaps they have been wanting to for ages, but have held on because they knew that the VM deal was on the horizon and it would allow some of the loyal TiVo customers to keep a TiVo.

By that reading, VM was indirectly responsible for several additional years of TiVo service we wouldn't otherwise have got.

Fits the facts as well as your theory.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> And I'm still waiting for you to produce any hard evidence whatsoever that the S1 UK Tivo service was not shut down at Virgin Media's specific insistence.


Two points:-

1. A negative can not be proven.
2. You made the allegation: you need to provide the proof.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ericd121 said:


> 1. A negative can not be proven.
> 2. You made the allegation: you need to provide the proof.


I made a credible assumption. I never stated it was definite fact either way.

If Tivo and/or Virgin don't like these assumptions being made and these assumptions are in fact incorrect then it is up to them to show that there is no basis for the assumptions.

The fact that they don't (given that Tivo have posted in these forums before through TivoPony and TivoJerry when it has suited them to do so) tends to speak volumes in my opinion.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

You assume they give a toss what you think...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> You assume they give a toss what you think...


I suspect that Virgin don't give a t**s and sadly cared only about making as many sales a as possible of their new Virgin Tivo model.

However I think Tivo do care and are really somewhat embarrassed about what they have agreed to with Virgin (which probably includes signing a clause that does not allow them to talk to customers about the reasons for the withdrawal of the official UK S1 service). It is for this reason that they have signed am NDA with healeydave giving him critical assurances that have allowed him to become the business coordinator and main website for the AltEPG project. Without those assurances (eg that they will not send out a kill download to non networked unmodified Tivos) I doubt that healeydave would have invested all the time and effort that he has done on the AltEPG project.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

I think TiVo and Virgin do care about their reputation and I suspect they wish they could rewrite some of the last 6 months.

Maintaining a few servers isn't costing them a lot but their problem is they signed an exclusive deal. You have to believe it was Virgin who insisted on it being an exclusive agreement as the last thing they wanted was to see Sky get their hands on the TiVo label and UI.

At some point someone at TiVo legal must have realised that the exclusive phrase meant per sethey could no longer deliver to S1 owners. Virgin probably assumed TiVo had a legal way of ending those agreements and TiVo USA probably thought everyone could sign up to Virgin You can almost hear someone say "Gee Walt, Virgin is just like another Sky, they can all move platform"

So as often happens in life we probably have a **** up rather than a conspiracy. But also what often defines people is more how they react to the unplanned than what they actually plan. Virgin and TiVo have had plenty of time to phone each other and agree a side letter to say the exclusive refers to new contracts so TiVo can continue to provide the S1 service. Again it's not like it costs much after you've already had to pay Tribune for the Virgin EPG service.

But they haven't done that right thing have they.

And if either get the plug pulled without getting the agreement of the S1 lifers then both their reputations are going to suffer and both are going to run a risk of legal action for conspiracy. So both might just be contemplating right now quietly buying themselves some time


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

Steve_K said:


> And if either get the plug pulled without getting the agreement of the S1 lifers then both their reputations are going to suffer and both are going to run a risk of legal action for conspiracy. So both might just be contemplating right now quietly buying themselves some time


Do you seriously think that many people care outside of the Tivo user community?

Well I suppose from recent posts, at least three people do.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Steve_K said:


> And if either get the plug pulled without getting the agreement of the S1 lifers then both their reputations are going to suffer and both are going to run a risk of legal action for conspiracy. So both might just be contemplating right now quietly buying themselves some time


The perverse side of corporate power politics is that the development of a credible self help AltEPG that actually works (leaving aside the capacity teething issues for dialup users) is that it will have made certain people at Tivo and Virgin much more twitchy about turning off the official UK S1 service. And whilst the original S1 service close down campaign clearly ran as planned with all those "we're going to cut you off soon, buy a Virgin Tivo now before its too late" type messages on the planned dates this has been followed by a wholly unexpected continuation of S1 EPG service after June 1st.

The original corporate bull***t between Virgin and Tivo executives was clearly that the S1 Tivos were old, old, old, and out of date and were only to do with the tv platform of the deadly enemy (aka Sky) and that as the deadly enemy (aka Sky) also ran the customer support the only thing to do was to kill it off.

Then via all those complaints on their blog the folks in Alviso become aware that 50% of their S1 customers cannot actually upgrade to the Virgin Media Tivo and many are Freeview or Freesat and not Sky customers and are so upset about the closure of S1 service that they threaten to embarrass Tivo by creating their own AltEPG that will even be able to support S1 Tivos in the Virgin Media tv area. Worse than that a whole lot of Status 8 Account Closed boxes may come back in to use because the EPG is now free and so there may even become an active market in selling refurbished S1 Tivos as a result (including HealeyDave's previous scrapheap of never sold and returned under warranty Account Closed Tivos).

But the AltEPG only has effective permission to keep itself going if Tivo withdraw the official S1 service. So some senior execs at Tivo and Virgin might now think the lesser of two evils is to keep the official S1 service going and to stop a whole bunch more Account Closed Tivos now being sold with free Lifetime EPG at cheap prices that undercut the Virgin Media Tivo in Virgin's own service area.

Such an outcome would be bad news in PR terms when some journalist gets round to writing about it or when they comment on the AltEPG S1 service in the same breath as they comment on the Virgin Media Tivo. Perhaps its better therefore after all to keep official S1 Tivo service going thereby pulling the rug from the AltEPG and letting the S1 boxes wither away by natural attrition.

Meanwhile the remaining S1 Tivo owners in Virgin land can all be offered an S4 Tivo Premiere at minimal upgrade cost (lowering their resistance to upgrading) as the Virgin Media Tivo rollout moves on from the early adopter XL only marketing stage and consequently Tivo and Virgin avoids the bad publicity of a rival guerilla self run Tivo service now being actively developed and marketed by the two main Tivo upgrading firms. On further reflection the corporate powers that be at Virgin and Tivo have perhaps begun to realise that once digital switchover is finished in April 2012 and HD Freeview is available everywhere that use of the old S1 Tivo will naturally wither on the vine. Unless that is that user anger at being cut off by Tivo Inc causes the guerrilla AltEPG group to keep their AltEPG Tivos running long term as a protest movement.

On the other hand healeydave of Tivoland seems to be a party to an NDA with Tivo that tells him that won't happen and that S1 service will definitely be killed off as planned even if it is delayed for a few more weeks while a backlog of Virgin Media Tivo orders that were placed in the last couple of weeks of May by S1 Tivo owners are installed.

It is really possible to believe that either of the above outcomes are true and that even if the original plan was to definitely kill the S1 Tivo service that various parties at Tivo and Virgin Media will by now be wobbly about the idea. And due to the other issues it faces such as the loss of free 0808 dialup and the AltEPG only having one week of advance data rather than two to three and also losing all the old thumbs data and SPs and Wishlists when you change EPGs they know that if they don't after all pull the official S1 Service that the AltEPG is then in reality dead in the water.

So perhaps better on reflection to pull back on the termination of official S1 service and continue it as normal whilst reintroducing the £10 per month Service Charge on non Lifetimed units. This ensures the S1 Tivos will slowly wither away on the vine without all the public embarrassment to Virgin and Tivo that the existence of a guerilla AltEPG movement may potentially cause them. On the other hand perhaps the AltEPG movement has come so far that it will now carry on anyway even if Tivo don't pull the official S1 Service and just take the risk of Tivo suing it for infringement of its various patented and propietary aspects of the Tivo service and in particular the loss of all those £10 per month revenue payments.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Wow. All that from the fact the switch off is a week late. Holmsian levels of deduction there.

Talk about over complicating things. Old TiVos being put back into service. Yeah, right.

FWIW, my guess is that no-one in VM management has given the S1s a second's thought since they agreed to TiVo's request to include S1 owners in the first wave of VM TiVos. Why would they? Utterly off their radar.

I doubt anyone in TiVo has given UK S1 owners any real thought since the decision was made that they at last could stop throwing money away on providing the service to the UK. 

The service will end whenever the Tribune and/or phone line deals end. There will doubtless be a few loose ends to tie up when they get round to it, and just maybe they agreed to keep it running until AltEPG is stable.

The idea that VM or TiVos reputation has been harmed by half a dozen people on a bulletin board with delusions about their importance getting in a huff about their "Lifetime" subscriptions being cut short is ridiculous. (The irony that their machines' Lifetime has been artificially extended by replacing failed hardware components being lost, apparently. )

Wake up guys - there was no backlash, no bad publicity, no class actions. Outside of a handful of people on this site, no one even noticed.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I doubt anyone in TiVo has given UK S1 owners any real thought since the decision was made that they at last could stop throwing money away on providing the service to the UK.


I'm sure they have and that various people there are not happy about the adverse corporate image it has created.



> The service will end whenever the Tribune and/or phone line deals end. There will doubtless be a few loose ends to tie up when they get round to it, and just maybe they agreed to keep it running until AltEPG is stable.


Wasn't it you who pointed out that the UK S1 service collects its data from a different server with a different IP address from the main US Tivo service. So all they needed to do was to switch that server off on June 2nd. This is a bit like suggesting that your bank might accidentally let you open an ISA for the last tax year a week on in to the next one. Come on pull the other one there clearly has been a rethink about the timing of the switch off.



> The idea that VM or TiVos reputation has been harmed by half a dozen people on a bulletin board with delusions about their importance getting in a huff about their "Lifetime" subscriptions being cut short is ridiculous. (The irony that their machines' Lifetime has been artificially extended by replacing failed hardware components being lost, apparently. )


So 205 objectors at http://blog.tivo.com/2011/02/1123/ is now only half a dozen is it. Talk about altering the facts to support your own heavily prejudiced view that all current S1 Tivo users are luddites.



> Wake up guys - there was no backlash, no bad publicity, no class actions. Outside of a handful of people on this site, no one even noticed.


The backlash and the press articles will mainly happen once service has been discontinued and the AltEPG is in place.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Pete77 said:


> The backlash and the press articles will mainly happen once service has been discontinued and the AltEPG is in place.


Give it a break Pete, you will be forecasting the end of the world next (oops that was already done a couple of weeks back). Nobody cares unfortunately and, speaking as a self-made capitalist entrepreneur, I can tell you if it is not going to alter the share price it is not going to matter. We call it the 'Marmite' effect - some people love 'em, some people hate 'em but they remain in business because there is no such thing as bad publicity. The more you stir the pot the stronger they become.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> . .So 205 objectors at http://blog.tivo.com/2011/02/1123/ is now only half a dozen is it. . . .


Well subject to moderation it'll soon be 206. They won't like mine one little bit



> Hi Joshua
> 
> Thank you for your assurance that "Our goal is to provide customers enough time to upgrade." As I understand it Virgin will be providing service to my house just before hell freezes over. So hopefully you can be patient.
> 
> ...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Steve_K well done on the blog post and let us hope they publish it.

But are you aware of the thread discussing plans to submit legal claims against Tivo by certain members if the Lifetime Service is ceased.

See www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=469325

In fact one member has already done that even before it happened, which with hindsight does look a rather hasty course of action although it may of course well have had the desired effect (i.e. Tivo deciding it is less hassle not to shut down the UK S1 service).


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

Yep am aware

My plan A remains to (1) win the lottery big time then (2) sue TiVo and then (3) have them declared bankrupt here. Unsurprisingly step (1) is the tricky bit.


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## velocitysurfer1 (Sep 6, 2006)

Didn't TiVo use to replace failed hard disks for customer way back in the early days? But for some reason (I assume it wasn't profit making enough) they stopped doing so.

Obviously having your hdd replaced by TiVo would not invalidate the T&Cs.

I wonder how they would source 40Gb disks if they still did this today!

The point of mentioning the above is that TiVo inc could artificially extend the life of a TiVo way pass the original intent of the Lifetime sub, and they did choose do this, but then stopped.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> So 205 objectors at http://blog.tivo.com/2011/02/1123/ is now only half a dozen is it. Talk about altering the facts to support your own heavily prejudiced view that all current S1 Tivo users are luddites.


I thought you were claiming there were thousands in your campaign? 205 _comments_ on a blog is hardly world-changing, especially when a fair proportion probably come from the same people (I notice two from the same person on page 1 for starters).


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

velocitysurfer1 said:


> Didn't TiVo use to replace failed hard disks for customer way back in the early days? But for some reason (I assume it wasn't profit making enough) they stopped doing so.
> 
> Obviously having your hdd replaced by TiVo would not invalidate the T&Cs.


After they stopped offering their own hard drive replacement service the Sky customer service unit for Tivo actively pointed people to Tivoland and Tivoheaven to buy pre-prepared replacement hard drives.

In doing so they in my opinion amended their terms and conditions by also allowing Tivo owners who replaced their hard drives from those sources to still be entitled to Lifetime Service.

The reality is that if Tivo had wanted to deny Lifetime Service to people who upgraded their hard drives beyond the original Tivo spec they could have updated the Tivo firmware to report if that took place and then denied Lifetime Service to anyone installing larger hard drives.

As they didn't then in my opinion they quite willingly accepted a variation to their terms and conditions where replacing hard drives did not invalidate Lifetime Service. Same thing with customers who installed a network card being able to collect daily downloads directly over the web instead of having to use the Tivo 0808 dialup number. Tivo could have blocked the Lifetime Service of those customers if they actually objected to such hardware modification.

The only real argument likely to place in court therefore is whether Lifetime does not in fact mean Lifetime or something shorter like 10 years from purchase or similar. Its a similar legal or ASA argument to the ones that took place over "Unlimited Broadband". So an easier way to make a complaint against Tivo about Lifetime Service is actually to log a complaint with the Advertising Standards Authority if and when Tivo UK cut off official Tivo Lifetime Service.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Yes, and the ASA will then insist they don't run that ad ever again. I imagine TiVo would be very worried about that.

I think we've established that there are many arguments that could be used in court, should someone be so extraordinarily selfish as to try to claim back the money they paid for a decade's excellent service on the basis of some semantics.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Trinitron said:


> I thought you were claiming there were thousands in your campaign? 205 _comments_ on a blog is hardly world-changing, especially when a fair proportion probably come from the same people (I notice two from the same person on page 1 for starters).


I count about 30 complaints about the lifetime not meaning Lifetime aspect.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

"extraordinarily selfish"

You still just don't get this "a deal is a deal" thing do you? I wonder if you also throw insults at pensioners who outlive their actuarial average life. And you must be such a real delight when someone wins a raffle.

It's about a matter of principle. Something TiVo seems not to have. They made a bet, they lost. No one deceived them, pay up.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

Steve_K said:


> It's about a matter of principle. Something TiVo seems not to have. They made a bet, they lost. No one deceived them, pay up.


<Insert witty metaphor here>

Surely you are the one who has lost (or looks like losing, as the service hasn't ended yet)? Unless you are prepared to put your money where your mouth is and sue them for, errm, not very much other than principle.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I think we've established that there are many arguments that could be used in court, should someone be so extraordinarily selfish as to try to claim back the money they paid for a decade's excellent service on the basis of some semantics.


Many later buyers of S1 Tivos have only had just over eight years Lifetime service (Tivos were on sale in retailers until early 2003). If Tivo had carried on Service for another two years they might have had a better case.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Steve_K said:


> Well subject to moderation it'll soon be 206. They won't like mine one little bit


We prefer the term "When Satan straps on his ice skates"


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Wake up guys - there was no backlash, no bad publicity, no class actions. Outside of a handful of people on this site, no one even noticed.


Well said.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Steve_K said:


> "extraordinarily selfish"
> 
> You still just don't get this "a deal is a deal" thing do you?


I understand it very well. I paid £199 each in order to never pay TiVo any more for the service on the two TiVos I had. that was the choice - £10 a month, or £199 up front. TiVo kept that deal.

Those who are asking for their money back in full - and that seems to be what people want - are in effect asking to have had the last decade's service for free by virtue of a technicality. That's just greedy, wanting something for nothing because they think the small print allows it.

If they were asking for a proportion back based on an estimate of remaining lifetime - say 10-20% - then that would be a stronger case, at least on the greed front.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

And as you full well know I have always said I am not looking for the full £598 back - unless I have to go to court to get it


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

You will.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

TCM2007 said:


> ...in effect asking to have had the last decade's service for free by virtue of a technicality...


Unfortunately, the "waybackmachine" site only goes back to July 6, 2007 for the TiVo Policies page. At that time, TiVo provided these terms and conditions (some highlighting added by me):



> *6. Changes to Your TiVo Service.* TiVo may at its discretion and from time to time change, add, or remove features and functionality of the TiVo service or the TiVo DVR without notice. If you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo service, you may immediately cancel your use of the TiVo service as provided in Section 15 ("Termination of Service"). *TiVo reserves the right to discontinue one, some, or all of the features of the TiVo service you receive at any time at its discretion.* TiVo may at its discretion discontinue the provision of software updates to certain TiVo DVRs. This means that while other TiVo DVRs may receive continued software updates and functionality; TiVo is not required to provide such updates to your TiVo DVR. Additionally, the level of service TiVo provides may not be the same on each TiVo DVR; a given TiVo DVR may support different features and functionality, and TiVo is under no obligation to provide all features and functionality to your TiVo DVR.


If anyone has a copy of the Service Agreement for years prior, it would be interesting to see if the same clause is present. As it is, I'm not sure how sound the "technicality" argument is...


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

There have been a number of threads thrashing out the finer points of the service agreements and whether they are legal in the UK - we have some very consumer-friendly unfair contract legislation in Europe, making certain provisions unenforceable (e.g. moving the legal jurisdiction for the contract after inception from England and Wales to California).

One such thread is here: You CAN submit a claim against TiVo (UK) Ltd for loss of service

The earliest Wayback version of the original UK service agreement is this one from 11 Dec 2000 (CSS is broken, it's presenting black text on a black background which you can read by highlighting it)


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Both sides of the argument can point to parts of the service agreement that support their argument, and both sides have to ignore other parts which directly contradict it.

So ultimately I don't think it will come down to the niceties of the legal phrasing who is right, but rather a more common sense argument.

I believe that "lifetime" is simply the opposite of "pay by month", and means that no further money is due for the lifetime of the box.

Others think that "lifetime" is a guarantee of continued service forever.

I believe that we've had more benefit from those lifetime subs than any of us would possibly have guessed back in 2000 when we thought £199 was good value, so to claim to have been hard done by is just churlish.

Others take a more literal view based on the "loss" they perceive to have incurred from not having the TiVo service available any more.

Glass half full, glass half empty. Being happy to have had a decade of great service from a great product vs the culture of litigation.

You choose!


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

Not a bad summary and I really think we should move on.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Agreed! Especially as the alternative EPG is here, free and open to all. Difficult to claim 'loss' when you haven't actually suffered any.


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

Trinitron said:


> The earliest Wayback version of the original UK service agreement is this one from 11 Dec 2000 (CSS is broken, it's presenting black text on a black background which you can read by highlighting it)


Extract from that T & C you link to pretty well sums it all up re claims etc for loss of service, unless you happen to have a lifetime unmodded complete with security tags intact 40GB Tivo then I reckon it is no chance.

TiVo Service Agreement  "TiVo Recorders"

Welcome to TiVo! This agreement explains the terms and conditions that will apply to your use of the TiVo service and constitutes a legally binding agreement between you and TiVo Inc. ("TiVo"). By using the TiVo service, you agree to all the terms and conditions in this agreement.
General Information

Definition of Lifetime Service. If you paid a Lifetime Service fee for your Recorder, the TiVo service is guaranteed for the lifetime of that Recorder, even if you give it to a friend of family member. The TiVo service will be provided only to that particular Recorder and therefore, cannot be transferred to any others you may purchase. If you opt to pay as you go, you will be billed monthly for your TiVo service.

Using the TiVo Service. You may access and use the TiVo service only with equipment authorised to receive the TiVo service and you *agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the Recorder*. The TiVo service is provided for your personal use and may not be resold, in whole or in part, or otherwise commercially exploited. Except as expressly provided in this agreement, you may not transfer the TiVo service (See above "Definition of Lifetime Service.")


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

RichardJH said:


> Extract from that T & C you link to pretty well sums it all up re claims etc for loss of service, unless you happen to have a lifetime unmodded complete with security tags intact 40GB Tivo then I reckon it is no chance. . .


And guess what is sitting in front of me right now. That very thing.


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## michael401 (May 20, 2011)

There's always one!  :up:


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

I was going to mod it but kept putting it off as it's more work than modding Sky+ and I didn't want to lose some of the recordings. Days grew into weeks, weeks grew into years and there it is. "Ain't broke don't fix " may also have played a part.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

michael401 said:


> There's always one!  :up:


Another one here! (Though not currently in use)


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Steve_K said:


> And guess what is sitting in front of me right now. That very thing.


And are you more annoyed, if at all, with TiVo for any perceived financial loss, breach of contract, et cetera, or because of their whole "So Long, Suckers, don't call us, we're not going to call you or admit we've ever even heard of you" way of going about the discontinuance?


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

It's not the financial loss per se but they put us into a money can't buy position.

TiVo's arrogance is a major issue to me. Actually it's their total stupidity and arrogance.

What they could easily have done was to announce that after 10 years they were discontinuing UK service and announce a consultation period to determine a fair way to do this. Then they could have elements like 

- offering to look to provide TiVo UI on another platform (ie Virgin) and
- a compensation package for those that could or would not take that option

The latter should have been ~£100 (ie effectively what it costs to transfer to AltEPG) and a commitment to work with information and assistance to set up an AltEPG provider

That would have been a morally and likely legal way forward and very unlikely anyone would have objected.

But no they went for the idiot and arrogant route.


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

I've commented in these threads before and it always turns out to be a mistake, but here we go.

When I was arranging my TiVo from VM I had a few issues and ended up talking to someone from Neil Berkett's office who claimed to be Neil's 'TiVo Champion' and also later someone who claimed to be the 'Head of' the TiVo team.

Both told me that TiVo killing the S1 service had come as a complete surprise to them and the TiVo team head said he was actually quite annoyed as they'd been getting a lot of flack for it and it wasn't their fault.

They could quite easily both have been lying, but there you have it.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Karnak said:


> I've commented in these threads before and it always turns out to be a mistake, but here we go.
> 
> When I was arranging my TiVo from VM I had a few issues and ended up talking to someone from Neil Berkett's office who claimed to be Neil's 'TiVo Champion' and also later someone who claimed to be the 'Head of' the TiVo team.
> 
> ...


I'm sure it's quite possible that they're too far down the org chart to have been let in on the skullduggery afoot.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Steve_K said:


> - a compensation package for those that could or would not take that option
> 
> The latter should have been ~£100 (ie effectively what it costs to transfer to AltEPG) and a commitment to work with information and assistance to set up an AltEPG provider.


How does it cost £100 to transfer to AltEPG?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Karnak said:


> I've commented in these threads before and it always turns out to be a mistake, but here we go.
> 
> When I was arranging my TiVo from VM I had a few issues and ended up talking to someone from Neil Berkett's office who claimed to be Neil's 'TiVo Champion' and also later someone who claimed to be the 'Head of' the TiVo team.
> 
> ...


Be interested to read Pete77's reaction to that!


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> How does it cost £100 to transfer to AltEPG?


Presumably a cachecard with memory? As you can use dialup - £0 cost I don't think that's a sensible comparison myself.

I would imagine that if you were to value a replacement in a legal dispute then the cost of a single tuner Freeview PVR would be about the same and might be considered a viable?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

If you could find a ten year old one to be a fair comparison.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

TCM2007 said:


> How does it cost £100 to transfer to AltEPG?


Cost of network card + someone's time to fit it

Can't see how AltEPG can be expected to run a modem farm to match the current dial up


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Steve_K said:


> It's not the financial loss per se but they put us into a money can't buy position.
> 
> TiVo's arrogance is a major issue to me. Actually it's their total stupidity and arrogance.
> 
> ...


Crikey! - a fair consultation period with users. Takes me back to talking to the Union's when I was working for BT. So as far as I can see your legal argument looks like this:

1. I have an old TiVo which I have not used for 5 years sitting at the back of a cupboard.

2. If I could be bothered to pull it out and connect it up it would not be able to get programme data.

3. I am not prepared to waste a few minutes of my time changing the dial code because that is clearly not fair.

4. I want compensation for loss of err, something. £100 would buy my silence on this matter, and that of other owners.

5. TiVo Inc are arrogant and stupid.

Yes, just like talking to the UCW of old.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

Steve_K said:


> Can't see how AltEPG can be expected to run a modem farm to match the current dial up


Well, they are doing! It's under pressure now from guided setup calls but that should reduce going forward. Also, Mikerr has got it to work off any dial-up provider so it will cost no more than an 0845 call.


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## mutant_matt2 (Dec 16, 2008)

unitron said:


> I'm sure it's quite possible that they're too far down the org chart to have been let in on the skullduggery afoot.


Or, TiVo Inc thought this was the perfect opportunity to let Virgin take the blame for something they've been trying to figure out how to get away with, for a long time....

Pete certainly is convinced!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

unitron said:


> And are you more annoyed, if at all, with TiVo for any perceived financial loss, breach of contract, et cetera, or because of their whole "So Long, Suckers, don't call us, we're not going to call you or admit we've ever even heard of you" way of going about the discontinuance?


The latter is the most deplorable aspect of all of Tivo's behaviour. Especially their continued pretence that all existing Tivo S1 customers can get a Virgin Tivo as a replacement when they can't

Also Lifetime S1 owners should not have to pay the monthly Virgin Media Tivo service fee (3GBP per month) if there is to be any meaning to the idea of Lifetime Service.


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> Also Lifetime S1 owners should not have to pay the monthly Virgin Media Tivo service fee (3GBP per month) if there is to be any meaning to the idea of Lifetime Service.


I don't believe if you go from a S1 to a Premier in the states you get to keep your lifetime service.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Steve_K said:


> Cost of network card + someone's time to fit it
> 
> Can't see how AltEPG can be expected to run a modem farm to match the current dial up


There shouldn't be any problem with using dial up, more lines are being provisioned as we speak.

The number of people using dial up will be measured in hundreds.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> The latter is the most deplorable aspect of all of Tivo's behaviour.


I agree their lack of engagement beyond a blog post and some marketing messages is very poor.

I wouldn't expect dialogue - they have nothing to gain from that. But an acknowledgement that it is the end of the line for loyal customers, thanks and an apology would have been nice.


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## DX30 (May 22, 2005)

Karnak said:


> I don't believe if you go from a S1 to a Premier in the states you get to keep your lifetime service.


Have TiVo stopped honouring the grandfather clause for Series 1 units activated prior to Feb 2000?

I remember when TiVo first launched in the States there was confusion over whether a lifetime service applied to the lifetime of the owner or the hardware. TiVo eventually said it was for the lifetime of the hardware but as compensation for the confusion added a grandfather clause saying existing customers would be able to do a one-off transfer of the lifetime service to a new TiVo.

Some details here -

http://www.tivopedia.com/lifetime-service.php


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

Heuer said:


> . .So as far as I can see your legal argument looks like this:
> 
> 1. I have an old TiVo which I have not used for 5 years sitting at the back of a cupboard. . . .


Well lets stop there shall we as you got that completely wrong. Watched something on it last night

Here's a tip: if you're going to slag someone off try starting with what they actually posted than what you imagined they posted.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Fair enough - here is the amended version:

1. I have a TiVo which I use regularly, have done for years

2. I am not prepared to waste a few minutes of my time changing the dial code because that is clearly not fair.

3. I need additional equipment and skills to continue using TiVo amounting to an outlay of £100 on my part, and even though this is a completely arrogant assertion and totally unfounded I will use it to press my case

4. I want compensation for loss of err, something. £100 would buy my silence on this matter, and that of other owners.

5. TiVo Inc are arrogant and stupid.

Yes, just like talking to the UCW of old - except they, with hindsight, were more reasonable.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

So the word "apologies" doesn't exist in your dictionary then Heuer? Nor does caring to correct the original insulting and false post.

And you compound it by going on the attack again without thinking it through



> 2. I am not prepared to waste a few minutes of my time changing the dial code because that is clearly not fair.


You offering to pay the delta phone bill cost then? Didn't think so.

And as has been posted several times, for the forseeable future dial up is very much not a preferred method of AltEPG.



> 3. I need additional equipment and skills to continue using TiVo amounting to an outlay of £100 on my part, and even though this is a completely arrogant assertion and totally unfounded I will use it to press my case


There you go again.

Unless you are offering to pay the dial up calls cost then the cost of network card is £89. If you care to read the various threads, you will see that most new users of a network card have difficulties so it's reasonable to prefer to use the services of an expert. Won't get that for £11 so maybe £100 is light.

But then "reasonable" is another word not in your increasingly small dictionary. "completely arrogant assertion and totally unfounded " would be though, you wrote the book on that one.

I could go further but I'm fed up pointing out your lies.

If TiVo want to get legally novate a contract they have to offer the other party an incentive or reasonable offer to give up one contract for another (not that AltEPG are offering any contractual commitment whatsoever - why should they). Or TiVo could just act like arrogant gits.


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## laurence (Jun 17, 2007)

Trinitron said:


> Well, they are doing! It's under pressure now from guided setup calls but that should reduce going forward. Also, Mikerr has got it to work off any dial-up provider so it will cost no more than an 0845 call.


Presumably, it must be possible to restrict the daily call to a (say) weekly (daily) call to save some pennies for those that use dial up.
Or set weekendly calls for people with free weekend calls.
No such setting on my wife, sadly.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Steve_K said:


> So the word "apologies" doesn't exist in your dictionary then Heuer? Nor does caring to correct the original insulting and false post.


Nope!



Steve_K said:


> And you compound it by going on the attack again without thinking it through


Yes - what is your point?



Steve_K said:


> You offering to pay the delta phone bill cost then? Didn't think so.


I was going to offer, but not now as you are being argumentative.



Steve_K said:


> And as has been posted several times, for the forseeable future dial up is very much not a preferred method of AltEPG.


Not according to TiVoland who are working very hard not to disenfranchise those without a network card



Steve_K said:


> If you care to read the various threads, you will see that most new users of a network card have difficulties so it's reasonable to prefer to use the services of an expert. Won't get that for £11 so maybe £100 is light.


They should stick to dial-up then - it is an easy and free option.



Steve_K said:


> But then "reasonable" is another word not in your increasingly small dictionary. "completely arrogant assertion and totally unfounded " would be though, you wrote the book on that one.


Available in all good bookshops. You should buy a copy but I get the impression you want everything for free.



Steve_K said:


> I could go further but I'm fed up pointing out your lies.


C'mon, don't give up on me so quickly



Steve_K said:


> If TiVo want to get legally novate a contract they have to offer the other party an incentive or reasonable offer to give up one contract for another (not that AltEPG are offering any contractual commitment whatsoever - why should they). Or TiVo could just act like arrogant gits.


TiVo Inc don't have to offer any "incentives or reasonable offer" as you have not proved they are in breach of contract (especially since the service is still there). And calling them names is unlikely to work either.

Go on, bite the bullet and swap over to AltEPG, you know it makes sense. And whilst you are at it don't forget to send them a donation.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

Dnftt


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