# MoCA, Charter & POEs



## agent (Jan 1, 2014)

after looking around the forum i have a few questions that i figured i'd consolidate here. hopefully they are easy for the grizzled TiVo vets out there.

quick info:
- 1 TiVo Roamio Plus
- 1 TiVo Mini
- cable provided by Charter in St. Louis
- Motorola CableCard w/ Tuning Adapter

1. i just got a Roamio Plus and a TiVo Mini with the idea of streaming them via MoCA. i am reading all over the place that a POE filter is pretty much a must-have (which leads me to wonder why it's not included with the TiVo Mini when that device does come with an HDMI cable, but i digress...). *first question is: where do they even sell these things?* 
i ended up ordering one from TiVo.com, but a trip to RadioShack resulted in nothing... as did amazon, or best buy or wal mart or monoprice. the lady at RadioShack said they probably stopped carrying them October 2013. the one entry that amazon carries says it is discontinued. a google search is bleak. one kinda shady site i found wanted $30 for one. no, i didnt check ebay because i dont have an ebay account and i dont want to mess with all that. it's 2014, this is supposed to be a major way cablecos and telcos are enabling networks in homes and yet this one little thing, that is essential, is almost impossible to find through normal channels. is this not odd?

1a. i've seen it mentioned around here that your cable company should be happy to provide you a POE filter for free as it ultimately helps them out. i called Charter to see if they offered this device. the lady, who claims she works in Cable TV tech Support, says she's never heard of a POE filter before. i had to explain to her: what "MoCA" stood for and what it was; what "POE" meant; what it did; what it attached to (coax); where it needed to be installed. 
.: crickets :.
so your mileage may vary.

2. Charter provides my cable TV, internet and phone. i havent seen it mentioned here, but *should i place the POE filter before the splitter that separates the TV cable from the phone line? or should i place it only before the TV cable gets split?*

3. i've also seen it mentioned around here that some cable companies require you to put the POE filter on the tuning adapter itself (Cox). *is this the case with Charter or am i fine with just putting the POE at the actual point of entry to my house?*

4. *what should the wiring diagram look like between the wall, tuning adapter and my TiVo Roamio Plus?* before the Charter tech came out it was:

Wall === split === TA
.....................=== TiVo

he "fixed" it by rewiring it to be:
Wall === TA === TiVo


----------



## lgnad (Feb 14, 2013)

You either can buy one from Tivo themselves, or you can get one on ebay, for like $8-9 delivered. Its not life and death that you get one, but its a good idea. 

As far as where you put it, it generally is put as the 1st thing on the wire so that it acts as a barrier between your whole house and the pole. In a few rare cases, cable modems have trouble with the moca signal and a different configuration is needed.


----------



## supasta (May 6, 2006)

POE Filter placement:
https://www.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/mytivo/POEFilterInstallation.pdf


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Another source for MOCA POE low-pass filters:

$9.99
http://www.pctstore.com/MoCA_Filter_Ethernet_to_coaxial_p/pctlpf1002.htm

$19.97 (Amazon Prime eligible):
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DC8IEE6


----------



## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

agent said:


> i am reading all over the place that a POE filter is pretty much a must-have (which leads me to wonder why it's not included with the TiVo Mini when that device does come with an HDMI cable, but i digress...).


We say it's a must have for security (and Moca signal strength) reasons but we don't sell Tivo equipment. We don't speak for Tivo. I added one to my cart when getting my Roamio Pro, Mini, & Moca Adapter because I knew I'd want one and it was just more convenient to add it to my order.



agent said:


> this is supposed to be a major way cablecos and telcos are enabling networks in homes and yet this one little thing, that is essential, is almost impossible to find through normal channels. is this not odd?


Not really. It's still a niche item. If I was looking for a supplier other than Tivo I'd probably start with vendors that sell Moca gear.


----------



## agent (Jan 1, 2014)

thanks everyone!
i just received the POE filter from TiVo and will install it before the splitter that splits the TV/Internet from the phone line.

the other main question i had was in getting the MoCA network itself running. the way the tech has my setup installed is this:

From the wall there is a two-way splitter: 
Line #1 goes into my cable modem.
Line #2 goes into the tuning adapter and then out from the TA into the TiVo (which is also connected via ethernet to my router).

i set the TiVo up to create a MoCA network, however in my network settings it says that MoCA is down. if i remove the ethernet cable, the MoCA network starts up but can't access the internet or anything outside of its little network (obviously).

in poking around on the net i've read that the line coming into the TiVo needs to come straight in, not bridged through the TA. is this correct?

and how would i do that if i need to split the line twice (once for the modem and once for the tuning adapter)?

note: i do have a tap splitter if that helps me in any way...


----------



## patrickosmith (Jan 7, 2014)

Update (as of 16 Jan 2014) ...
See attached picture. Everything seems to work well now ... No more picture tiling issues and MoCA net with Mini is good.

Original post ...
I'm still learning and researching all of this, but it sounds like you went through the same set up pains as I did over the 2013 Christmas/New Year Holiday. I have a Roamio Pro and a Mini with MoCA network connection. I have Charter in New England that provides my cable TV and internet but I do not have phone (instead I have "free" Ooma voip phone service). 

My MoCA connection to Mini is now working (no POE filters yet ... they are coming from Amazon in 2 days time). 

Your symptoms were exactly same as mine after I installed the Tuning Adaptor (TA) (no network or network down or something like that). I believe the problem is that you have no path from the Roamio to the Mini because that path is being blocked by the Tuning Adaptor. 

Here's my current set up (without MoCA filters):
My initial 3-way splitter (important: 2 GHz bandwidth) is at Cable Entry Point to my basement. It has 4 ports as follows:
1) "IN" from outside-the-house cable (this is where one of my 2 POEs will go)
2) To Living Rm with Roamio, TA, Router, Cable Modem, E-switch, etc.
3) To Master Bed Room
4) To Guest Bed Room/Game Room

At the Living Room outlet, it is more involved. I have a 3-way splitter (4 ports) and a 2-way splitter (3 ports). The splitters are actually resistive "splitter/combiners." I tie-wrapped them together so that I have all 7 ports in one place.

At the Living Room out I have the 3-way splitter with the 4 ports as follows:
1) "IN" from wall (which came from port 2 from basement) -- 4 foot coax.
2) To Cable Modem -- 1 foot coax
3) To TA Input -- 1 foot coax
4) To the 2-way splitter connected to Roamio -- 1 foot coax

At the Roamio I have a 2-way splitter with 3 ports as follows:
1) "IN" from Roamio coax connection -- 4 foot coax
2) To TA Output -- 1 foot coax
3) To port 4 on the 3-way splitter -- 1 foot coax. This port is the connection that should allow your MoCA network from Roamio to hook up to the Mini.

In my case -- tracing just the MoCA path from Roamio to the Mini -- I have the following. Out of the Roamio, 4-foot coax to 2-way splitter, then 1-foot coax to 3-way splitter (in the living room), then long run coax to the 3-way splitter (in the basement), then long run coax to my Master Bedroom where my Mini resides. Be sure that all splitters/combiners in the path from the Roamio Pro to the Mini have a 2 GHz bandwidth rating (not the 1 GHz rating of the typical cable TV splitters) because the MoCA RF frequencies are between 1.125 GHz and 1.550 GHz.

This is now working for my setup, except I seem to have unresolved "tiling" issues with the picture (glitches in the picture and sound).

Having said all of that, I plan to reconfigure the Living Room to have (3) 2-way splitters instead of (1) 3-way and (1) 2-way. When I incorporate the to-be-delivered POE filters, I will place them to optimize my MoCA network performance and to minimize interference to cable TV, TA, and cable modem.

Let me know if this helps you.

I will do an update when I reconfigure the splitters and incorporate the POE filters. I am hoping these filters will resolve my "tiling" issues by removing potential interference from my in-house-MoCA signals into the TA's input.


----------



## agent (Jan 1, 2014)

the fact that you have it working helps me. at least i could mimic your setup and know that i should be able to get MoCA up and running. however that would mean i'd need to update from my 1GHz splitters to 2GHz+, which i'm not entirely sure is needed. don't get me wrong, it is working for you and thats great, but i've read that you need at least 1GHz (yes, despite MoCA running at higher frequencies). so before i drop the money and wait for them to be delivered, i'd like for someone to clarify if 2GHz splitters are really needed...

as for the tuning adapter... i've been reading around in this thread (i guess i am not allowed to link to anything yet??? just replace everything after tivo-vb/ in your URL with this: showthread.php?t=501722) which gives a detailed graphic on the proper way to hook up your Roamio/tuning adapter/MoCA combo. basically: 
1) main line to two-way splitter
2) line 1 out goes to TiVo RF In
3) line 2 out goes to tuning adapter RF In
(Note: nothing gets hooked up to the tuning adapter's RF Out).

this is actually how my TiVo was hooked up for years until it died on me last month. when the tech came out last week to troubleshoot cablecard problems on my new Roamio he reconfigured the connections to be *main === ta rf in === ta rf out === tivo rf in* (similar to how you have yours set up now). the problem with this, or so i've read, is that the tuning adapter is not the best part of town for MoCA signals to travel through and you are better off splitting the line directly into both the TiVo and the TA than using the TA as a bridge or whatever.

anyway, i just came from about an hour of messing with different configurations of connections to try and get my setup working to no avail. if i follow that thread i linked to above my setup would have to look like this:
1) main from wall
>=2-way split (Antronics 1GHz)=<
2) out to cable modem
3) out to tap (i dont have another 1GHz splitter)
>=1GHz tap (in/out/tap)=<
4) tap to tivo
5) out to tuning adapter
-------- coax done ---------
6) ethernet from modem to router
7) ethernet from router to tivo

i tell my tivo to be used to create a MoCA network. it says it does. but then when i check the network settings it always says MoCA is down.

i've tried different combinations of the above: switching the splitter and tap positions; forgoing the tap and just connecting the tivo directly to out#2 from the wall splitter (not even connecting the ta)... it all results in the same thing: network down.


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

agent, I don't see that you've described your full coax network. Earlier you mention a TiVo mini, but what is it connected to that ultimately is also connected to the cabling that goes to your TiVo Roamio?

When I was setting up a MOCA network for my parents (who do not yet use a Roamio), I noticed that until there were two devices attached to the coax cabling and could see eachother, a device would not indicate the MOCA network was up (LEDs on the MNOCA adapters in this case). Maybe the Roamio is the same -- if it's the only device, configured to create the MOCA network, it may be reporting it's down until there's another active MOCA device on the cable.

Have you tried connecting your mini to the cable that presently goes to your TA and see if then you see the MOCA network show it's up (and/or the Mini works)?

BTW, a tap does have a rating on the tap segment identifying the signal loss associated, and then the other output will have the "rest" of the signal (usually a minor loss -- the higher the signal loss on the main tap leg, the lower the signal loss on the other). You can think of the tap as an unbalanced splitter. A 2-way splitter will have equal signal loss on each output (3.5db or thereabouts). So while any tap you might have laying around that had previously been used probably isn't going to reduce the signal on either leg enough to matter, just be aware that if you're using it behind what may already be a number of splitters/signal loss, you could then ultimately have too little signal to be useful on the tap output. (I see you tried it both ways so you're probably OK... but one other aspect is taps seem to come in a variety of layouts and what you think might be the tap and output aren't always on the same side as each other.

At home I have a Roamio Pro, configured to create a MOCA network. I have no other MOCA devices. It reports the MOCA network is down. So you may just be facing some other issue between where you currently have the TiVo mini and the TiVo Roamio.

Oh, and you definitely do not need 2GHz splitters. There's no magic cutoff at 1 GHz (or 1002 MHz when the splitter is labeled in a post-MOCA world and the manufacturer wants to appear relevant). The rating of a splitter is just the point at which they're saying the specs for signal loss are valid. Above that point the splitter is still splitting, but generally with an increasing signal loss as the frequency gets higher. I'd avoid any splitters from the VHF/UHF-only era, though. And there's the chance that is the issue with your connectivity between the Mini and your Roamio -- as I mentioned above.

The MOCA network I set up for my parents is described here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9947349#post9947349

I took some care to keep the signal loss approximately the same across all the coax endpoints, as I was distributing using an 8-way splitter and then in several cases wanted to be able to survive at least a further 2-way split in each room.


----------



## agent (Jan 1, 2014)

you know what?! since i was having problems, and my wife still wanted to watch tv, i unhooked the tivo mini and put its coax straight back into the tv. i was unaware that this could cause the network to appear down. i will hook it back up and try again tonight. fingers crossed...

here is my full wiring diagram:

outside === [poe filter]===>2-way splitter A<

from 2-way splitter A:
1) telephone line
2) cable/internet line

CATV/INT===>2-way splitter B<

from 2-way splitter B:
1) goes to master bedroom
2) goes to living room

master bedroom===TiVo Mini

living room===>2-way splitter C<

from 2-way splitter C
1) goes to cable modem
2) goes to TiVo Roamio/tuning adapter*

-------------------------------------------------------------------
*currently this is set up to go straight into the tuning adapter RF IN, then out its RF OUT and into the Roamio's RF IN. however, if i have read things correctly, i believe i need to split this line again so it looks like this:

TiVo/TA line===>2-way splitter D<

from 2-way splitter D
1) goes directly into the TiVo's RF IN
2) goes directly into the tuning adapter's RF IN (nothing gets hooked up to the ta's RF OUT)


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

agent said:


> you know what?! since i was having problems, and my wife still wanted to watch tv, i unhooked the tivo mini and put its coax straight back into the tv. i was unaware that this could cause the network to appear down. i will hook it back up and try again tonight. fingers crossed...
> 
> here is my full wiring diagram:
> 
> ...


Let's balance this out...

1) Can you make a guess about cable lengths. Room-to-room is most important, but just guess on every individual connection length. For purposes of what I write next, I'm just going to use 30 feet from splitter A to splitter B, 45 feet from splitter B to MBR and 45 feet from splitter B to LR. I'll use 2 feet for everything else. I;'m estimating signal loss through the cabling in addition to your splitters to identify the signal level at each of your devices.

2) Right now:
Telephone: -5.6db loss
TiVo Mini: -12.2db loss
Cable Modem: -16.1db loss
Tuning Adapter: -20db loss
TiVo Roamio: -20db loss

Ideally we'd like to keep every individual device having somewhere near a 12db loss, based on your need for 5 devices.

3) Do this:
Replace 2-way splitter A with a 12db Tap, where the 12db output goes to the telephone device.
Replace 2-way splitter B with a 6db tap, where the 6db output goes to the MBR/TiVo Mini
Replace 2-way splitter C with a 3-way balanced splitter, where outputs go to Cable Modem, Tuning Adapter, and Roamio

This will give you:
Telephone: -13.9db loss
TiVo Mini: -12.1db loss
Cable Modem: -12.1db loss
Tuning Adapter: -12.1db loss
TiVo Roamio: -12.1db loss

(and possibly utilize a POE filter in front of the cable modem or tuning adapter if that's what's recommended for your equipment)

Your cable lengths might vary a lot from what I'm guessing here, so that could change what I'd suggest you do. But the jist here is to try to balance your outputs better because your current wiring is very deep through a leg of a splitter several times, which means at the end of that path the signal is significantly weaker than what the earlier connected devices are going to get.

12db tap: http://www.3starinc.com/holland_12_db_directional_coupler_5-1000_mhz_.html
6db tap: http://www.3starinc.com/holland_6_db_directional_coupler_5-1000_mhz_.html
3-way balanced splitter: http://www.pctstore.com/3_way_splitter_RF_splitters_PCTNGNII3TB_p/pctngnii3tb.htm


----------



## webcrawlr (Mar 4, 2004)

agent said:


> the fact that you have it working helps me. at least i could mimic your setup and know that i should be able to get MoCA up and running. however that would mean i'd need to update from my 1GHz splitters to 2GHz+, which i'm not entirely sure is needed. don't get me wrong, it is working for you and thats great, but i've read that you need at least 1GHz (yes, despite MoCA running at higher frequencies). so before i drop the money and wait for them to be delivered, i'd like for someone to clarify if 2GHz splitters are really needed...


A lot of it I think depends on the length of your runs and how many times you are splitting your connection. MoCA transmits around 55db so it's quite powerful but if you are using a splitter that's starting to filter that band off and has high isolation your connection can go south fast.

I bought both 1Ghz "cable" and 2150MHz "satellite" Holland splitters to do some testing myself. From what I read the 2150Mhz splitters aren't suited well for cable internet due to the high output return loss but the low isolation, and the fact that the frequency range MoCA uses isn't getting clipped, should help MoCA. My environment is pretty simple though so I'm not sure I'll see much difference. I do plan to report my findings though.


----------



## agent (Jan 1, 2014)

ok, first let me preface this by saying that when the tech was out here last week, he noticed a poor signal where it terminated at my TiVo. he took it upon himself to upgrade the signal quality which according to him was being caused mostly by an unneeded 3-way splitter at point B, rather than a 2-way. he also took off my tap at point C and replaced it with a 2-way.

all three splitters he is using at points A, B and C are Antronix 2-ways rated up to 1002Hz with -3.5DB outs. i am assuming they are new. they look like it.

also i just took some rough measurements and they are as follows:

Splitter A to B: ~30 feet
Splitter A to phone: ~5 feet
Splitter B to C: ~35 feet
Splitter B to Mini: ~24 feet
Splitter C to modem: ~6 feet
Splitter C to Roamio: ~6 feet

with all that said, i have a couple quick questions:

1.) for testing if the MoCA network is working, i hooked the Mini back up to the coax, and then hooked the Roamio up directly to splitter C (taking the tuning adapter out of the picture completely). the network still displays as 'Down', however if i remove ethernet from the Roamio the network pops up and runs. it even says its been running for over a day. obviously this isnt a solution as the Roamio doesn't have a connection to the router. but is that any sort of indication as to what is going on?

2.) even if i have low signal strength at my Roamio, shouldn't i see the MoCA network running if i have everything set up right?



thanks for all your help, everyone


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

agent said:


> ok, first let me preface this by saying that when the tech was out here last week, he noticed a poor signal where it terminated at my TiVo. he took it upon himself to upgrade the signal quality which according to him was being caused mostly by an unneeded 3-way splitter at point B, rather than a 2-way. he also took off my tap at point C and replaced it with a 2-way.
> 
> all three splitters he is using at points A, B and C are Antronix 2-ways rated up to 1002Hz with -3.5DB outs. i am assuming they are new. they look like it.
> 
> ...


To check this out best you need to have the Mini and the Roamio connected directly. Either just connect them to each other with a separate coax, or at least hang them off the same splitter from the cable service feed (temporarily disconnect the TA and connect it to the Mini).

In other words, confirm MOCA works at all on both of these devices. If they don't work, I'd probably prefer to have a third device like a normal MOCA adapter to experiment with to see if it'd work with the Roamio or with the Mini, at least.


----------



## agent (Jan 1, 2014)

alright,
brought the Mini in and hooked it straight into the back of the Roamio, coax to coax. 

network is down.

then i grabbed the 3-way splitter the tech left behind and used it where splitter-C is. (it is rated up to 1000Hz and it's 3 outs are 3.5db, 7db and 7db.)

the Roamio is hooked up to the 3.5db
internet is hooked up to the 7db
Mini is hooked up to the other 7db

network is down.

(for the record, each time i try a new configuration i first check Network Status to see if the network just pops up like it does when i pull out the ethernet cable. if it's not i go back through Network Settings and go through the steps of turning MoCA on, even though it already says my network type is Ethernet+MoCA. after going through the steps it says that MoCA is set up and ready to go, but then when i go back to Network Status it says it is down. if i need to do something differently here please let me know.)


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

agent said:


> alright,
> brought the Mini in and hooked it straight into the back of the Roamio, coax to coax.
> 
> network is down.
> ...


Other than the possibility there's a need to reboot the devices for some reason, one or both of your MOCA devices is not working, or one of them isn't configured properly.

At this point, if it were me, I'd reboot them both from full power off. If they still aren't connected after they came back up then I'd disable MOCA on the Roamio, reboot it, reconfigure MOCA on it, and try again, and similarly do the same on the Mini (I don't really know what config choices exist there, but presuming there is something to configure). And if that didn't do it, I'd be calling TiVo for repair/replacement. Knowing just how obtuse CSR's can be on the phone, I might even have bought an Actiontec MOCA adapter pair and check them out with the Roamio on the network both as the Roamio being the provider and as one of the Actiontec adapters being the provider, before bothering with calling TiVo... but that's a $90 option there. (You can run the Action tec adapter in a diagnostic mode and they'll report on all the identified MOCA devices on your network -- but supposedly the Roamio should be doing that as well). 

Anyway, I think at this point it's not your wiring.


----------



## agent (Jan 1, 2014)

here's the weird thing. when i initially hooked up the Mini last week it connected to the TiVo Service before stalling at the MoCA screen (saying there was no MoCA network available). so how was it able to connect to the TiVO Service if it didnt have a network connection? seems odd.

anyway, i did some more tests since my last post. this time with the Mini hooked up to another of the same tv's hdmi ports.

first test was TiVo-to-TiVo again, although this time i went back and did the guided setup on the Mini. to my surprise it went all the way through, setting the machine up to run on the MoCA network. i was able to get to the MyTiVo screen and see all the recorded shows on the Roamio. however, when i switched tv inputs to view my Roamio's screen it continually said the MoCA network was down.

undeterred, i did a second test bringing back the 3-way splitter at point C. i checked in on the Mini and it said there was no network connection. damn. and the Roamio wouldn't even let me see the Network pane. it just kept timing out and giving me an error. at this point i restarted the Roamio, figuring whatever was going on with it's Network pane was causing the Mini to not have a network connection either.

now that it's restarted the Mini has a network connection again! i can see my shows and even watch live tv -- verified by both taking the Roamio's HDMI out of the tv as well as hitting info on the Roamio and seeing that one of the tuners was being used by another TiVo (at this point i need double-100% proof that something is working, lol).

the only weird thing is that despite this connection obviously working, the Roamio still show's it's MoCA Network Status as being 'down' (the Mini happily shows it up and running...)


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I suppose calling TiVo and asking if it should be showing something other than Down yet be working is where to start. 

FYI, with your estimated cabling lengths and use of 2-way splitters, this is the signal levels you basically will have everywhere now (I am assuming you run another 2-way splitter to feed the tuning adapter and Roamio separately rather than one feeding the other):

Telephone: -4.2db loss
TiVo Mini: -11db loss
Cable Modem: -15.8db loss
Tuning Adapter: -19.7db loss
TiVo Roamio: -19.7db loss


The best balance I can get using taps and splitters with your current cabling is by doing this:

Replace 2-way splitter A with a 16db Tap, where the 16db output goes to the telephone device.
Replace 2-way splitter B with a 9db tap, where the 9db output goes to the MBR/TiVo Mini
Replace 2-way splitter C with a 3-way balanced splitter, where outputs go to Cable Modem, Tuning Adapter, and Roamio

Which will basically give you:

Telephone: -16.4db loss
TiVo Mini: -13.5db loss
Cable Modem: -14.1db loss
Tuning Adapter: -14.1db loss
TiVo Roamio: -14.1db loss



It's more important to resolve your equipment issues first; I really wouldn't expect an issue with your current estimated signal losses anyway.


----------



## agent (Jan 1, 2014)

oh yeah, i meant to ask. i've read up on what the tuning adapter is supposed to do (and the whole concept of switched digital video in general). however, while i've been running these tests all week i haven't had coax going into the tuning adapter at all (the only thing connected is it's usb to the Roamio). aren't i supposed to lose channels or something if the tuning adapter isn't part of the system? i am still able to access my HD and premium channels which i would have thought would be the first to go without it.

another thing: i understand what taps do, but why don't the cable techs use them instead of splitters around the house?

i am looking at taps from where you linked to earlier. you mention, for instance, that on a 16db tap to run the 16db output to the phone. when i look at the tap, the out port is -1.2db and the tap is -16db. just so i'm clear, you'd want me to run the tap output to the phone, correct? and then further down the line, the 9db tap output to the mini.

as for my setup, i moved the Mini back into the bedroom, plugged everything in and it all works. i can stream and record from the Roamio just fine (and this is with the 3-way unbalanced splitter still hooked up at point-C with one of it's ports unused -- yes i still havent hooked the tuning adapter back up).

i think i'm almost to the point where i can finally install this POE filter.


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

agent said:


> oh yeah, i meant to ask. i've read up on what the tuning adapter is supposed to do (and the whole concept of switched digital video in general). however, while i've been running these tests all week i haven't had coax going into the tuning adapter at all (the only thing connected is it's usb to the Roamio). aren't i supposed to lose channels or something if the tuning adapter isn't part of the system? i am still able to access my HD and premium channels which i would have thought would be the first to go without it.
> 
> another thing: i understand what taps do, but why don't the cable techs use them instead of splitters around the house?
> 
> ...


The tuning adapter is needed only to get at channels which are provided as switched digital video signals; where the headend needs to be told to begin delivering it when you are tuning it, and your TiVo needs to be told what frequency it can be found. There's little value to using switched digital video for channels that are most always in use (i.e., popular channels). So it's usually the niche sorts of channels that don't have wide audiences such that there'd be extended periods where bandwidth need not be used up providing that signal if nobody is tuned to it in the area serviced by your headend.

Yes, the tap output which has the rated signal loss is the one I expected to be hooked up to the device at the point of the tap and the regular output which has much lower signal loss is the output to connect on to the next splitter or tap in your path.

I think the biggest reasons most cable installers don't use taps is twofold: minimizing the inventory they have to carry around, and the need to use math skills to figure out when it's appropriate to use them. And it's probably the rare installation that really needs them because of how the wiring has been done... in other words, the signal levels distributed through using just splitters, even in poorly designed situations, is still usually good enough, especially nowadays with digital tuners involved instead of analog.

Often the installer will use taps in one particular instance... cable modem connections. It seems pretty common for them to address potential signal issues by using a tap at the main input and connecting the cable modem to the tap output and letting the rest of the coax wiring get what's left from the tap's main output.

The 3-way unbalanced splitter is almost identical in performance to using 2 2-way splitters in series. Two of the outputs of the unbalanced splitter will be about a 7.5db signal loss and one will only be able 3.5db. A balanced splitter 3-way splitter will have a signal loss of about 5.5db on each of the 3 outputs. THe unbalanced 3-way splitters is ever-so-slightly better than using 2 2-way splitters in series because of the small amounts of insertion loss at each connection between the two splitters that is all internal to the 3-way splitter.

The POE filter can only help your MOCA signal make it through your coax, especially through multiple splitters; no reason not to install it at the main line entering your home even before you started playing around to get things working.


----------



## agent (Jan 1, 2014)

awesome, thank you for all your help and clarifying that bit about the tuning adapter.


----------



## webcrawlr (Mar 4, 2004)

agent said:


> oh yeah, i meant to ask. i've read up on what the tuning adapter is supposed to do (and the whole concept of switched digital video in general). however, while i've been running these tests all week i haven't had coax going into the tuning adapter at all (the only thing connected is it's usb to the Roamio). aren't i supposed to lose channels or something if the tuning adapter isn't part of the system? i am still able to access my HD and premium channels which i would have thought would be the first to go without it.
> 
> another thing: i understand what taps do, but why don't the cable techs use them instead of splitters around the house?
> 
> ...


Taps are used when wiring is done in a trunk fashion (one wire going around the structure with branches off it feeding outlets). Most homes today have all the locations home run back to a central spot. Think of it like this, taps are used when the RF path continues on and splitters are used when it's the end of the path.

Is there any way you can rearrange what location your modem sits in? If you could get the modem to be at the same location as the mini you could use a diplexer there and get rid of the C splitter.

My testing of Holland cable (5-1002MHz) and satellite (5-2150MHz) splitters showed no difference in terms of MoCA performance using the D channel (1125Mhz) at my house. My runs are all home run back to a central location using a single splitter with the longest run being about 40 feet. In more complex environments I'm sure the results would vary.

And in my signal testing using a POE filter at the headend vs not I saw no difference in MoCA or cable signal at the end devices.


----------



## patrickosmith (Jan 7, 2014)

It's great that you got your set up working!

I was having similar issues (MoCA down; no Mini connectivity). And after much worrying about 2 GHz splitters/connectivity/losses, etc, all it took was to unplug power from the Roamio, disconnect coax and ethernet from Roamio, power up the Roamio, reconnect ethernet and coax to Roamio. After that, the Mini connected to the Roamio's MoCA network.

I'm still waiting for my POE filters, but everything is currently working.

You seem to have a lot of splitters and chained splitters as well. I was getting some "picture tiling" and sound glitches on some of my channels, especially my HD channels.

So I decided to feed the TA and cable modem after a single 2-way split (1 GHz splitter) from the street. I also completely separate my internal MoCA signals from the CATV/CableModem signals. Since then, no issues.

My setup is working *without any POE filters* however I plan to add when I get them (still waiting).


----------



## jntc (Dec 5, 2013)

patrickosmith said:


> ...*without any POE filters*...when I get them...


You only need one.


----------



## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

jntc said:


> You only need one.


You might need two, depending on your modem. MoCA causes problems with some modems.


----------



## patrickosmith (Jan 7, 2014)

Since things are working I hesitate to touch anything, but I'd like to be immune from external interference and I'd like to optimize my MoCA performance. So, at some point I plan to:

a) put 1 MoCA POE filter at cable feed into my home. This keeps my MoCA "in" and keeps other potential MoCA interference from the street "out".

b) put 1 High Pass Filter in the chain that feeds my internal MoCA network (Roamio Pro to multiple Mini's over my coax). This isolates my internal MoCA network from potential interference from cable modem and/or TA.


----------



## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

patrickosmith said:


> Since things are working I hesitate to touch anything, but I'd like to be immune from external interference and I'd like to optimize my MoCA performance. So, at some point I plan to:
> 
> a) put 1 MoCA POE filter at cable feed into my home. This keeps my MoCA "in" and keeps other potential MoCA interference from the street "out".
> 
> b) put 1 High Pass Filter in the chain that feeds my internal MoCA network (Roamio Pro to multiple Mini's over my coax). This isolates my internal MoCA network from potential interference from cable modem and/or TA.


In situation b) where do you plan to put it? If you are looking to isolate your modem, just put it on your modem. Your TA isn't going to cause any issues. Are both your TiVo and the Mini on the same splitter? I'm confused on why you'd need two if you're isolating just the MoCA devices. If they're on the same splitter and you isolate that splitter, you don't need one at the point of entry into your home


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

The MOCA POE filter does two things:

1) Filters (not blocks so much as significantly attenuates) the signal that is above 1002MHz, which will include the frequency range used by retail MOCA devices so that your MOCA signal doe snot make it outside of the boundaries of your home coax network.

2) The nature of RF signals is such that when blocked by such a filter, the signals reflect. This has the advantage of distributing your MOCA signal back into your coax network through your splitters/taps which provides a more robust signal path to all your MOCA devices, including those on segments not directly upstream or downstream (i.e., "side to side" through your splitters, and in other cases where taps may be attenuating more of the signal in the "reverse" direction).

And placing the filter between your cable and the input to your cable modem or terminal adapter is simply attenuating any of the MOCA signal out so that it doesn't present any chance of causing issues to those devices. Not that it should be expected to cause issues... it really shouldn't be. But as long as your cable modem or terminal adapter is not intentionally using signals about 1002MHz, it is not going to do any harm, and if in the future it makes some CSR happy on support a phone call, so be it.


----------



## patrickosmith (Jan 7, 2014)

After much learning (Thank You all for posting great info) I have a final configuration that I believe is optimal for my situation:
1) Provides highest signal strength and SNR to CATV signals and Cable Internet Modem.
2) Isolates and optimizes MoCA network. If there are issues with your cable provider, this isolation makes trouble shooting (and potential finger pointing) much easier. 

See attached pdf ... a picture is worth a thousand words. I hope this helps others get their set ups working in less time than it took me! 

My configuration includes the following elements:

Cable Feed with MoCA POE filter
Cable Modem for internet
Router
E-switch (TV, Blu-Ray, Playstation, Western Digital Server, etc.)
TiVo Roamio Pro configured to provide MoCA network over coax
TiVo Mini connected via a MoCA network over coax
Tuning Adaptor (TA)
One 2-way (1 GHz) splitter for CATV and cable modem
One 2-way (2 GHz) splitter (connects TA, Roamio, and Mini's via coax)
One 3-way (2 GHz) splitter for up to 3 Mini's via coax MoCA network
An additional MoCA POE filter to optimize MoCA network


----------



## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

patrickosmith said:


> After much learning (Thank You all for posting great info) I have a final configuration that I believe is optimal for my situation:
> 1) Provides highest signal strength and SNR to CATV signals and Cable Internet Modem.
> 2) Isolates and optimizes MoCA network. If there are issues with your cable provider, this isolation makes trouble shooting (and potential finger pointing) much easier.
> 
> ...


I see now. You actually only need one POE, the one you have between your Tuning Adapter and your TiVo. There's no MoCA on the rest of your coax at that point.


----------



## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

JosephB said:


> I see now. You actually only need one POE, the one you have between your Tuning Adapter and your TiVo. There's no MoCA on the rest of your coax at that point.


I initially thought the same thing, but then it occurred to me that I guess you could rationalize the one at the entry point is to keep errant MoCA signals from the neighborhood out of his house.


----------



## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

tatergator1 said:


> I initially thought the same thing, but then it occurred to me that I guess you could rationalize the one at the entry point is to keep errant MoCA signals from the neighborhood out of his house.


The POE filter at the TiVo still isolates every MoCA node inside his house, though.


----------



## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

JosephB said:


> The POE filter at the TiVo still isolates every MoCA node inside his house, though.


But then some people have mentioned that their cable companies recommend protecting a Tuning Adapter or older Cable Modem from MoCA, which in this case would be the unlikely situation where another neighbor is using a MoCA network, without a POE filter, and the MoCA signal from your neighbor is still strong enough to interfere with normal operation of a TA or Cable Modem by the time it reaches your home's coax.

Bottom line, yes, the POE at entry is redundant, but you could argue it's not if they really wanted to.


----------



## webcrawlr (Mar 4, 2004)

patrickosmith said:


> After much learning (Thank You all for posting great info) I have a final configuration that I believe is optimal for my situation:
> 1) Provides highest signal strength and SNR to CATV signals and Cable Internet Modem.
> 2) Isolates and optimizes MoCA network. If there are issues with your cable provider, this isolation makes trouble shooting (and potential finger pointing) much easier.
> 
> ...


If you don't need MoCA on the cable modem leg, and it appears you don't, I'd move the POE filter from the in of the first 2 way splitter to the out leg of the same splitter that feeds your MoCA side. The filter has about 1db loss with it and there's no benefit of having it at the head compared to where I mentioned in this case.

I'd also drop the second filter, it's not needed.


----------



## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

tatergator1 said:


> But then some people have mentioned that their cable companies recommend protecting a Tuning Adapter or older Cable Modem from MoCA, which in this case would be the unlikely situation where another neighbor is using a MoCA network, without a POE filter, and the MoCA signal from your neighbor is still strong enough to interfere with normal operation of a TA or Cable Modem by the time it reaches your home's coax.
> 
> Bottom line, yes, the POE at entry is redundant, but you could argue it's not if they really wanted to.


If someone in your neighborhood was injecting enough MoCA interference then the cable company would notice, and it would be affecting many people in the neighborhood.



webcrawlr said:


> If you don't need MoCA on the cable modem leg, and it appears you don't, I'd move the POE filter from the in of the first 2 way splitter to the out leg of the same splitter that feeds your MoCA side. The filter has about 1db loss with it and there's no benefit of having it at the head compared to where I mentioned in this case.
> 
> I'd also drop the second filter, it's not needed.


I believe that would isolate the Roamio from the Minis.

If everything is working fine, including your internet, then I'd just leave it alone. However the most efficient things to do from a signal loss perspective would be lose the filter at the entry to the house. Replace the 2-way at the Roamio and the 3 way to the minis with a single four way coming out of the tuning adapter, and put the filter between the tuning adapter and the splitter. Of course, your wiring may be such that you don't have all three runs back to the Roamio, and if so I understand why you did it that way.


----------



## webcrawlr (Mar 4, 2004)

JosephB said:


> I believe that would isolate the Roamio from the Minis.
> 
> If everything is working fine, including your internet, then I'd just leave it alone. However the most efficient things to do from a signal loss perspective would be lose the filter at the entry to the house. Replace the 2-way at the Roamio and the 3 way to the minis with a single four way coming out of the tuning adapter, and put the filter between the tuning adapter and the splitter. Of course, your wiring may be such that you don't have all three runs back to the Roamio, and if so I understand why you did it that way.


I think you are thinking I'm talking about the 2nd 2-way and I'm talking about the 1st 2-way, the one at the head end. That splitter has two out legs. One goes to the cable modem and the other to the TA. Put the POE filter on the leg going to the TA. Then remove the POE filter after the TA. It's not needed. Again this is assuming there's no need for MoCA at the router which it doesn't appear there is.

The Roamio Pro is acting as the MoCA to Ethernet bridge in this setup as you can see from the Ethernet cable going from the Roamio to the router.

Someone else mentioned issues using the TA out to feed your TiVo, which I've also read. If you run in to issues you are going to want to split the single before the TA and run one to the TA, one to the Roamio and the other to the 3-way for the mini's.


----------



## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

webcrawlr said:


> Someone else mentioned issues using the TA out to feed your TiVo, which I've also read. If you run in to issues you are going to want to split the single before the TA and run one to the TA, one to the Roamio and the other to the 3-way for the mini's.


The issues here are two-fold, at least with Cisco TAs: 1, the TA blocks MoCA, so if you need to feed MoCA back out the line feeding the TA you will definitely need to split. 2, the Cisco TAs have an internal amp feeding the 'cable out' connection and those are prone to failure. If that amp dies the TA will still get signal but no signal will be sent to downstream devices.


----------



## patrickosmith (Jan 7, 2014)

My (final?) configuration is attached in Adobe. (How does one insert graphic directly into a post?).

Although my POEs have yet to arrive, things seem to be working well.

When I get the POE's I might add them.

The POE at the Roamio splitter/combiner will:

1) keep my MoCA signal from feeding back into the Tuning Adaptor's output (this probably doesn't matter)

2) prevent out-of-band emissions of the Tuning Adaptor from entering my MoCA network

3) reflect my MoCA signals back into the splitter (perhaps optimizing my MoCA network performance). 

The POE at CATV feed entry is questionable. It adds insertion loss without any benefit given that I already have a POE between the Roamio and the Tuning Adaptor.


----------



## ort (Jan 5, 2004)

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but agent, I see you are in St. Louis and using Charter. Any issues getting all 6 tuners working?

I'm also in St. Louis and have been trouble getting a straight answer on this. Thanks.


----------



## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

ort said:


> This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but agent, I see you are in St. Louis and using Charter. Any issues getting all 6 tuners working?
> 
> I'm also in St. Louis and have been trouble getting a straight answer on this. Thanks.


I had an issue at the initial purchase timeframe of my Roamio Pro that the Charter phone reps couldn't get either CableCard I had in my S3 to pair with my Roamio. I ended up escalating the issue to corporate customer care when I couldn't go to my local Charter satellite office to pick up a new CableCard with upgraded firmware to try and fix the issue. They sent out a tech last Tuesday with a new CableCard and a new tuning adapter (didn't need the TA as I later find out) and after a couple of phone calls while on-site, they managed to get the new CC to work with all six tuners.

It's been a little less than a week and I should find out tonight if I run into additional issues or not as I think I'm supposed to be recording across 4-5 tuners at one time.

I just had a Premiere XL crap out due to its tuner going brain-dead and its replacement will likely be a Roamio Plus. Charter was on-site on Saturday swapping out the CC and TA as I thought the CC was the issue and the replacement CC has the same firmware as the one I received on my prior appointment. I should expect that one to work without issue once I get my replacement Roamio Plus.


----------



## ort (Jan 5, 2004)

Thanks. I hate dealing with cablecard/tuning adaptor issues.

Can't I just use the Cablecard and Tuning adaptor I have in my Premiere now or will I have to get new ones?

Shouldn't I just be able to pop them in myself and call support? In theory?


----------



## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

ort said:


> Thanks. I hate dealing with cablecard/tuning adaptor issues.
> 
> Can't I just use the Cablecard and Tuning adaptor I have in my Premiere now or will I have to get new ones?
> 
> Shouldn't I just be able to pop them in myself and call support? In theory?


In theory, yes, you should. I tried that on the cable cards I had in my S3 (which the Pro was replacing) and spent more time on the phone trying to do it without success. I think it was partly getting the wrong reps at Charter and partly the CableCards being the issue.

I know when the tech came out the following, the firmware in the new CableCard was newer (3.25 vs 2.65, I think) and I've had no issues since.

I would try on your own first and if you have issues with it, schedule a truck roll for them to come out with at least 2 CableCards, in case the first one they bring with is old. If you go through it on your own and have no success, then that should get the tech out there for free.


----------



## TuneGuy! (Jul 19, 2002)

I only read the first few posts, so forgive me if this has been pointed out. My Mini and MoCA adapter are on the way so I've been doing a lot of research and planning for my MoCA network-to-be. I had Charter cable Fort Worth, TX (Cisco card) installed a month ago, my first experience with cable in many years. Yesterday, I went up into the attic and took a good look at the equipment they had installed and found it included an expensive looking powered amp/splitter with 8 video ports, a VoIP port - the purpose of which I cannot figure since the cable modem which produces my VoIP service gets its signal from a splitter connected to the same cable that supplies the TV - and excellent labels.

When I searched for the brand and model I was very pleasantly surprised to find it is "MoCA ready," the ports are bidirectional and it incorporates a POE filter; everything I need. Although I did not order Charter's DVR, they offer one, also by Cisco. Researching the manual for it, I found that it can stream to set top boxes using a MoCA network, and that if you order it, you get different, MoCA-capable set top boxes, also by Cisco. So it looks like Charter makes sure on initial setup that your house is configured for a MoCA setup so only box substitution is required if/when their DVR is ordered. They would also make sure that all their splitters are compatible. This is a really good thing for TiVo users who want to install a MoCA network.

I was pretty impressed with the quality of the equipment and their work; neat and careful. I've heard plenty of complaints about Charter's service, but my experience has been great.

So the upshot is that if you have a recent Charter installation, with or without a DVR, or any other cable provider that offers a streaming DVR, you may be all set for a MoCa network; no POE filter necessary and all equipment compatible.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

takeshi said:


> Not really. It's still a niche item. If I was looking for a supplier other than Tivo I'd probably start with vendors that sell Moca gear.


There are some on Amazon, but yeah, most PoE filters are installed by the MSO, so they buy them in massive bulk, whereas few consumers ever buy one or know what it is.

I just don't have one. Any of my neighbors, if they have Comcast, and if they have a MoCA network are 99% likely to have it with X1, in which case they would have the filter, so I don't care, as it will get blocked on their end anyways.



dswallow said:


> Oh, and you definitely do not need 2GHz splitters. There's no magic cutoff at 1 GHz (or 1002 MHz when the splitter is labeled in a post-MOCA world and the manufacturer wants to appear relevant). The rating of a splitter is just the point at which they're saying the specs for signal loss are valid. Above that point the splitter is still splitting, but generally with an increasing signal loss as the frequency gets higher. I'd avoid any splitters from the VHF/UHF-only era, though. And there's the chance that is the issue with your connectivity between the Mini and your Roamio -- as I mentioned above.
> 
> I took some care to keep the signal loss approximately the same across all the coax endpoints, as I was distributing using an 8-way splitter and then in several cases wanted to be able to survive at least a further 2-way split in each room.


My splitters are all 860mhz or unlabeled, and they work fine with MoCA. At one point, I had MoCA blasting up a 2-way, across a 3-way and back down through a 4-way, with one run being probably 150'+, then through another 25' of RG-59, and it all worked fine. Now I have the 2-way gone, so it's just a 3-way, which goes to the XL4, the cable modem, and the splitter for the Mini's, which don't need QAM, so I don't care about the high QAM loss on that splitter.


----------

