# Emergency Broadcast system stops me from using TIVO!



## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

So this past Sunday morning I'm watching a recorded show and all of a sudden, it goes to my cable systems GUIDE channel. The Tivo started to scroll across the screen that cablevision was running a test of the emergency broadcast system.

I couldn't do ANYTHING on my tivo. I just got the "negative" sound when you press a button that doesn't do anything in a given menu.

The screen said the test was going to go on for like 10 minutes, so I flipped over to my ReplayTV.

Has anyone else seen this on their series3??? I tried searching for emergency broadcast system, interruptions etc, but didn't see anything.

I find this rather annoying that it wouldn't let me use my OWN TIVO.


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## George Cifranci (Jan 30, 2003)

Yup I saw that via Time Warner the other day. I assume it is designed not to allow you to bypass it since it is an emergency message. It doesn't last very long.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

Standard behavior. Cable company DVRs do the same thing. The only big flaw in the Tivo is that it won't resume recording something after the alert is over.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

TexasAg said:


> Standard behavior. Cable company DVRs do the same thing. The only big flaw in the Tivo is that it won't resume recording something after the alert is over.


Agreed. It caused the only two partial recordings I've had since I got the S3.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

blacknoi said:


> ...Has anyone else seen this on their series3??? I tried searching for emergency broadcast system, interruptions etc, but didn't see anything....


You didn't look hard enough...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=334643&highlight=emergency
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=322560&highlight=emergency
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=320035&highlight=emergency
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=318432&highlight=emergency


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

A word please about the emergency interruptions. My God are we all so selfish that we can't allow the rest of the world in for an emergency? I say this because people say this is "annoying" and in another thread someone wanted to "op out" of these messages.

I don't have children but I still can understand the stress a parent feels if his/her child goes missing. So they cut in with the Amber alert. That parent is concerned about his/her child a *human being* that may be in trouble. We should be grateful for this technology because I guarantee that if it was one of your children you would want to get the word out any way possible.

The same thing should also apply to tornado warnings in your county. Someones house may be getting ready to get hit in another part of your county or even yours. These are things that I feel are more important then missing a piece of "24". (Oh my god, I can't believe I said that).

I won't say that I'm thrilled when these things happen, but I understand the necessity of it. Hopefully TiVo will get a fix so that the recordings will pick up again. In the meantime, try to be understanding.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

hookbill said:


> A word please about the emergency interruptions. My God are we all so selfish that we can't allow the rest of the world in for an emergency? I say this because people say this is "annoying" and in another thread someone wanted to "op out" of these messages.
> 
> I don't have children but I still can understand the stress a parent feels if his/her child goes missing. So they cut in with the Amber alert. That parent is concerned about his/her child a *human being* that may be in trouble. We should be grateful for this technology because I guarantee that if it was one of your children you would want to get the word out any way possible.
> 
> ...


What's so hard about allowing people to opt out? Nobody forces them to watch TV in the first place, so why can't someone opt out of being forced to watch something they don't want to watch?

Just because someone doesn't see an amber alert message that interrupts their television watching doesn't meant hey won't see the local news where they say the same thing.

The Emergency Alert System defines numerous classes of messages; providing a way to opt out at the message class level would be trivial. It would also allow for even more message types to be provided, allowing people to opt in to things that peolpe might feel otherwise aren't "important enough" to interrupt others with unconditionally.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

dswallow said:


> What's so hard about allowing people to opt out? Nobody forces them to watch TV in the first place, so why can't someone opt out of being forced to watch something they don't want to watch?
> 
> Just because someone doesn't see an amber alert message that interrupts their television watching doesn't meant hey won't see the local news where they say the same thing.
> 
> The Emergency Alert System defines numerous classes of messages; providing a way to opt out at the message class level would be trivial. It would also allow for even more message types to be provided, allowing people to opt in to things that peolpe might feel otherwise aren't "important enough" to interrupt others with unconditionally.


The idea is to get the word out immediately. If someone doesn't see their news that evening they have no idea. I mean if just the chance comes through that someone says, Hey I saw that little girl today, however remote I don't think there should be any time wasted.

On the other hand I would like to have the ability to "opt out" of things like listening to George Bush. That your likely to see on the news or hear about later.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

But the point of the EBS tests is to test the television station equipment, not the end-use equipment. It would be nice if TiVo ignored EBS broadcasts with the text "This is a test". There, problem solved. Now we'll only be interrupted for real emergencies (which I'm okay with).


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## Buran (Mar 29, 2005)

I have no problem with "getting the word out" but I do have a problem with overriding user desire to say "Okay I see the message, I reviewed the information, that tornado is in the next state over and can't possibly come this way, but just in case I'll listen for the sirens, now go away".

It is bad, bad UI design to force the user to sit and wait for anything that they do not need or want to sit and wait for. It is good UI design to pop up a message telling the user that there is an alert, press (x) for more information -- NOT to deliberately destroy any pending tasks that the user has set up. Not unless there is a good reason to halt any user-requested tasks.

For that matter, why do I have to stop recording to get the signal strength meter to come onto the screen? Why can't I view the signal strength of whatever I am recording right now? That's bad UI design too.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Buran said:


> For that matter, why do I have to stop recording to get the signal strength meter to come onto the screen? Why can't I view the signal strength of whatever I am recording right now? That's bad UI design too.


That is something TiVo needs to fix. I think.


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

Buran said:


> I have no problem with "getting the word out" but I do have a problem with overriding user desire to say "Okay I see the message, I reviewed the information, that tornado is in the next state over and can't possibly come this way, but just in case I'll listen for the sirens, now go away".
> 
> It is bad, bad UI design to force the user to sit and wait for anything that they do not need or want to sit and wait for. It is good UI design to pop up a message telling the user that there is an alert, press (x) for more information


Unfortunately, Tivo's doesn't have the flexibility to improve the UI design of most of the way it handles emergency alerts. The EAS spec (which is required by cablecard certification) allows the cable operator to send an alert which blocks the user from doing anything else. Complaining to Tivo isn't going to get you anywhere. However, not all EAS messages require the user to be blocked - so it's up to your cable company to determine what kind of alert they want to send.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

What good are the emergency alerts on a DVR? So, I find out that there was a tornado alert or an Amber alert last week when my show was recorded.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

CharlesH said:


> What good are the emergency alerts on a DVR? So, I find out that there was a tornado alert or an Amber alert last week when my show was recorded.


They're not recorded; they're delivered when they happen. It just has to be on.

The problem with the Series3 is that when the alert happens, any recording in progress stops. And apparently doesn't even automatically restart when the alert is over.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Roderigo said:


> Unfortunately, Tivo's doesn't have the flexibility to improve the UI design of most of the way it handles emergency alerts. The EAS spec (which is required by cablecard certification) allows the cable operator to send an alert which blocks the user from doing anything else. Complaining to Tivo isn't going to get you anywhere. However, not all EAS messages require the user to be blocked - so it's up to your cable company to determine what kind of alert they want to send.


I wasn't aware of that. I just thought that was something TiVo could fix. That's a bummer, and I doubt we'd get anywhere complaining to the cable company.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

i get the same alerts on my comcast boxes. Cant do **** either but sit and watch it. Only like 5-10 seconds. Its an inconvenience, but tv recordings are pretty low on my priority list. If it gets interrupted, oh well.


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## BruceShultes (Oct 2, 2006)

If the show you want to record is one of the major networks, just record it OTA. 

When done that way, my recording doesn't stop. It just shows the message bar at the top of the screen and loses the sound during the EBS message. 

My only complaint is that the tests should be done early in the morning so they interrupt the fewest viewer's shows.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

BruceShultes said:


> If the show you want to record is one of the major networks, just record it OTA.
> .


That's assuming that we can even get OTA. I've said it once I'll say it a hundred times not everyone can get OTA.


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## Necro (Sep 26, 2006)

Why can't the S3 still record while it shows the EBS message?

Why can't it just keep that info over the screen as you change channels?

I understand why they are doing it... but it still sucks losing recordings.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

So is there a way to complain to the CableCard consortium?


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## JoN8282 (Feb 27, 2005)

Mike Farrington said:


> But the point of the EBS tests is to test the television station equipment, not the end-use equipment. It would be nice if TiVo ignored EBS broadcasts with the text "This is a test". There, problem solved. Now we'll only be interrupted for real emergencies (which I'm okay with).


please note: the EBS was not activated on 9/11 - if that is not the time, what is?


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

What would they have said? It was already on every channel.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

hookbill said:


> A word please about the emergency interruptions. My God are we all so selfish that we can't allow the rest of the world in for an emergency? I say this because people say this is "annoying" and in another thread someone wanted to "op out" of these messages.
> 
> I don't have children but I still can understand the stress a parent feels if his/her child goes missing. So they cut in with the Amber alert. That parent is concerned about his/her child a *human being* that may be in trouble. We should be grateful for this technology because I guarantee that if it was one of your children you would want to get the word out any way possible.
> 
> ...


Well said :up:


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

dswallow said:


> ... And apparently doesn't even automatically restart when the alert is over.


That's the only problem I see.


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

Necro said:


> Why can't the S3 still record while it shows the EBS message?


There are several options the cable company can use when they send their Emergency Alerts. The can send just the scrolling message, but they can also send a force tune. It's the force tune that causes the recordings to stop because the S3 is required to move a tuner over to the specified channel. I'm not sure what happens when the S3 receives a text only emergency alert.


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## JoN8282 (Feb 27, 2005)

kb7oeb said:


> What would they have said? It was already on every channel.


which proves the point that there is no need for the EBS - it is ancient.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

For those who may want to check for themselves, the latest EAS rules and regs as of March 7th, 2003:

http://www.nric.org/meetings/docs/meeting_20050329/7 3 FCC EAS Rules.pdf

Complaining to the cable co's, tv stations or even tivo will do no good. These requirements come straight from the government/fcc.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

jmoak said:


> For those who may want to check for themselves, the latest EAS rules and regs as of March 7th, 2003:
> 
> http://www.nric.org/meetings/docs/meeting_20050329/7 3 FCC EAS Rules.pdf
> 
> Complaining to the cable co's, tv stations or even tivo will do no good. These requirements come straight from the government/fcc.


Any idea where to find the other side of the regulations? The ones governing consumer reception equipment?


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## Higuchem (Jan 3, 2006)

I am glad to see others find this a pain when recording shows. EBS Test happen to me yesterday not only once but three times that stopped my tivo recordings. I do ask for Tivo to find a way to fix this so that the tivo will go back to recording my shows.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Higuchem said:


> I am glad to see others find this a pain when recording shows. EBS Test happen to me yesterday not only once but three times that stopped my tivo recordings. I do ask for Tivo to find a way to fix this so that the tivo will go back to recording my shows.


As mentioned previously in this thread TiVo has no control over the way these messages are sent out. It's the cable company that causes the stop recordings.

Having said that if there is a power outage and your in the middle of a recording as soon as power is returned TiVo starts recording again. Why not for these emergency things?


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

Does this only happen on s3's (sinc they have cablecards and the rules that go along with those)? Or are s2's/1's subject to it too?


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

blacknoi said:


> Does this only happen on s3's (sinc they have cablecards and the rules that go along with those)? Or are s2's/1's subject to it too?


I think this is due to cable cards. However I'm not sure if cable DVR's don't have this problem, I had so many partial recordings I was never sure of why they happened when I had the SA 8300.


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## sthor (Oct 1, 2006)

hookbill said:


> A word please about the emergency interruptions. My God are we all so selfish that we can't allow the rest of the world in for an emergency? I say this because people say this is "annoying" and in another thread someone wanted to "op out" of these messages.


The EBS system was originally designed to warn of impending nuclear attack. I don't think a tornado 2 counties away or a child taken by one of the parents in a child custody dispute is quite that serious and it is arrogant to interrupt my life with them.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

sthor said:


> The EBS system was originally designed to warn of impending nuclear attack. I don't think a tornado 2 counties away or a child taken by one of the parents in a child custody dispute is quite that serious and it is arrogant to interrupt my life with them.


Well, I don't like getting interrupted either about a tornado two counties away unless of course I'm one of the next two counties to get hit but since they cant do it county specific like weather radio I guess there is no choice. And quite frankly I agree that the Amber alert used in child disputes is disturbing. However for you to say it's arrogant to interrupt your life then again, I think your being a bit selfish. It's only television.

Now I wish it would continue recording after the interruption.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

dswallow said:


> Any idea where to find the other side of the regulations? The ones governing consumer reception equipment?


Gov regs simply say they must comply with CableLab's "OpenCable Set-Top Terminal CORE Functional Requirements for Bi-directional Cable", defined by SCTE-DVS208r6 (Society of Cable Telecommunications Engineers), superseded now by SCTE18_2002, "Emergency Alert Message for Cable", approved as a joint standard with CEA as ANSI-J-STD-042-2002.

...although "simply" may be the wrong term here.


and btw,

Cable dvr's _definitely_ have this "problem". By design, they have to.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

FWIW, satellite receivers will have this problem no later than May 1, 2007. Cable had a 12/31/2006 deadline.

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/eas.html


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

dswallow said:


> Any idea where to find the other side of the regulations? The ones governing consumer reception equipment?


This is the spec that's referenced in the cablecard requirements document:

http://www.scte.org/documents/pdf/SCTE182002ANSIJSTD042DVS208.pdf


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## dieman (Sep 21, 2006)

hookbill said:


> That parent is concerned about his/her child a *human being* that may be in trouble. We should be grateful for this technology because I guarantee that if it was one of your children you would want to get the word out any way possible.


Note: amber alerts are generally (depends on the state) only used where the child is considered in serious danger by law enforcement and there is enough information to identify a vehicle, person, etc. Its not used for every child abduction and is not a parents right. Overuse of the system will desensitize people to emergency alerts in general.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

hookbill said:


> Well, I don't like getting interrupted either about a tornado two counties away unless of course I'm one of the next two counties to get hit but since they cant do it county specific like weather radio I guess there is no choice. And quite frankly I agree that the Amber alert used in child disputes is disturbing. However for you to say it's arrogant to interrupt your life then again, I think your being a bit selfish. It's only television.
> 
> Now I wish it would continue recording after the interruption.


If the EAS messages are formatted and populated correctly by whoever originates them, they can define down to a geographic portion of an individual county.

And after a quick read through all the documents, I see nothing prohibiting having a feature to allow the customer to selectively disable processing alerts by whatever criteria they want. And on page 8 of http://www.scte.org/documents/pdf/SCTE182002ANSIJSTD042DVS208.pdf it specially states a user-defined priority can be implemented and compared to the message alert_priority code to determine whether to discard or process the message. Further, it appears the terminal device is supposed to discard test events and NOT process them unless the terminal device is explicitly meant for test events (has been configured to permit the lowest priority messages to be processed).

It also says the processing doesn't have to be done if the device isn't on; and has provisions for time shifted viewing (i.e., comparing the timestamp of the message to the current timestamp). TiVo does have knowledge of last user interaction time, and that coupled with knowledge of what's on the active output right now being a timed recording versus manually tuned channel could be used to determine whether to behave like the device isn't "on" (i.e.; no live viewer).

So there's plenty of room for TiVo to provide solutions to these complaints.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

The S3 has two tuners, why not tune the unused or lower priority tuner to the channel and prevent it from being changed while the other tuner records, unless the cable co is broadcasting on all channels. Even then why not record it along with the show up to the duration the show is listed for?


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## kjmcdonald (Sep 8, 2003)

Don't over the air broadcasters have to transmit EBS messages also?

When the Cable company sends the message, does it send a video signal containing the still shot of the text message on all channels ( I assume this is what happens on analog) ? or does it continue to send the normal programing, and an additional EBS signal somewhere else in the data stream leaving it to the set top or end-node device to render the text to the screen?

If the latter, then there is *technologically* quite a bit tivo can do. Leaglly maybe not so much.

I mean if the original signal is still there, it could actually record the show without recording the alert. If the text of the message is digitally somewhere else in the signal, then it could render it itself on the screen like it does the menus at the time of the alert, without affecting recordings, the tuners, or the live buffers. For live it could even *pause* your show for the duration of the alert and resume it after without you missing a thing...(Now if there was ever a good use for time shifting that would be it!!)

In a digital TV system, with the other data channels embedded already (PSIP, Channel Lineup) EBS alerts should be easily be able to be sent in a low bandwidth manner allowing the end-node device to display it with out interupting transmission of the content - without timeshifting you'll still miss the content, but at least the content is there to be recorded by those who can.

-Kyle


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> The only big flaw in the Tivo is that it won't resume recording something after the alert is over.


I saw that a couple of days ago, while suffing a bit of insomnia at 5:45 in the morning. There was a test of the EBS and when it was over the S3 was no longer recording the show it was previously.

The S3 should definitely pick up recordings again, and I wonder if this is the cause of some people's partial recordings. If I hadn't been watching at that hour I'd never have known that's why the recording was truncated.


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## dssdbs (May 18, 2001)

hookbill said:


> The idea is to get the word out immediately. If someone doesn't see their news that evening they have no idea. I mean if just the chance comes through that someone says, Hey I saw that little girl today, however remote I don't think there should be any time wasted.
> 
> On the other hand I would like to have the ability to "opt out" of things like listening to George Bush. That your likely to see on the news or hear about later.


Well, I don't ever watch "news", and I don't ever want to be forced to see one of these "emergency" broadcast messages.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

dssdbs said:


> Well, I don't ever watch "news", and I don't ever want to be forced to see one of these "emergency" broadcast messages.


Now that's just too bad cowboy. Everyonce in a while you may have to put up with somebody elses problems. If you can't handle it then perhaps the best words to describe you would be "self centered?"


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

dswallow said:


> And after a quick read through all the documents, I see nothing prohibiting having a feature to allow the customer to selectively disable processing alerts by whatever criteria they want. And on page 8 of http://www.scte.org/documents/pdf/SCTE182002ANSIJSTD042DVS208.pdf it specially states a user-defined priority can be implemented and compared to the message alert_priority code to determine whether to discard or process the message. Further, it appears the terminal device is supposed to discard test events and NOT process them unless the terminal device is explicitly meant for test events (has been configured to permit the lowest priority messages to be processed).


Tivo, are you listening? Please fix this.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

dssdbs said:


> Well, I don't ever watch "news", and I don't ever want to be forced to see one of these "emergency" broadcast messages.


You wouldn't want to be informed if there was an emergency? Seriously?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

DCIFRTHS said:


> You wouldn't want to be informed if there was an emergency? Seriously?


Obviously there's some areas where the system is actually used effectively (perhaps tornado-prone regions), but if it wasn't even used in NYC on 9/11, exactly what sort of emergency would it be used for, and would it really matter?

I sure am glad I also like reading real paper books; at least I'm spared someone else deciding I should be interrupted for something they consider "important." I just know one day some electronic book reader is gonna have to support EAS too. Just wait. Why can't some people wrap their heads around the idea that not everybody wants to be "connected" 24/7. And just because you can be connected 24/7 doesn't mean you (a) want to be, (b) should be, or (c) should be intruded upon by anyone or anything you don't give permission to do so.


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

dswallow said:


> And after a quick read through all the documents, I see nothing prohibiting having a feature to allow the customer to selectively disable processing alerts by whatever criteria they want. And on page 8 of http://www.scte.org/documents/pdf/SCTE182002ANSIJSTD042DVS208.pdf it specially states a user-defined priority can be implemented and compared to the message alert_priority code to determine whether to discard or process the message.


Are you referring to the following?

| NOTE A terminal device may process any alert in a way consistent 
| with a higher value of alert_priority, at its discretion. For example, a user 
| option could cause text display for alert_priority 1 events, even though such
| display is not required.

This is actually saying the opposite of what you want. This is saying a device can display a lower priority alert even if it's not required. It does general permission to allow the user to specify what alert priority they're willing to accept.



dswallow said:


> Further, it appears the terminal device is supposed to discard test events and NOT process them unless the terminal device is explicitly meant for test events (has been configured to permit the lowest priority messages to be processed).


However, you don't know what priority the actual alerts are being sent out by the headend. Just because they're calling it a Test EAM doesn't mean the message has alert priority 0.



dswallow said:


> It also says the processing doesn't have to be done if the device isn't on; and has provisions for time shifted viewing (i.e., comparing the timestamp of the message to the current timestamp).


The Time shifted section is informative (in standards speak - it's explaining something, but not a requirement of the spec). My reading of this, is that a time-shifting device doesn't have to show the Emergency Alert when the content is played back. The issues is what happens at the time of the alert - not at the time of playback.



dswallow said:


> TiVo does have knowledge of last user interaction time, and that coupled with knowledge of what's on the active output right now being a timed recording versus manually tuned channel could be used to determine whether to behave like the device isn't "on" (i.e.; no live viewer).


Tivo can't define what's meant by the "device isn't on" It's hard to change this definition, and still say they're following a standard.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

dswallow said:


> Obviously there's some areas where the system is actually used effectively (perhaps tornado-prone regions), but if it wasn't even used in NYC on 9/11, exactly what sort of emergency would it be used for, and would it really matter?


How would the EBS have helped on 9/11?

Where exactly do you go to hide from jet airlines crashing in to you?

-smak-


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

smak said:


> How would the EBS have helped on 9/11?
> 
> Where exactly do you go to hide from jet airlines crashing in to you?


Exactly.

But nonetheless, it went unused. It wasn't used in NYC; it wasn't used while they thought there were other planes under terrorist control; it wasn't used in DC; it wasn't used while they thought the White House or Capitol was a target. It wasn't used in NYC for anything; to warn people not to go outside; to warn people to seal windows to minimize breathing in dust. Even to help calm them with an equivalent of an all-clear. Nothing.

Some seem to want to use it for just about any sort of notification; probably thinking that it's being "underused" otherwise. I'd say a really simple way to decide if a EAS message should be forced upon someone is if that message has a high probability of saving the life of the person watching/hearing it versus if they didn't watch or hear it. And that's all it should be used for. Now if they want to provide other capabilities and allow people to opt in to them; great. Go ahead. But don't make anything intrusive but that first category.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

dswallow said:
 

> Exactly.
> 
> Some seem to want to use it for just about any sort of notification; probably thinking that it's being "underused" otherwise. I'd say a really simple way to decide if a EAS message should be forced upon someone is if that message has a high probability of saving the life of the person watching/hearing it versus if they didn't watch or hear it. And that's all it should be used for. Now if they want to provide other capabilities and allow people to opt in to them; great. Go ahead. But don't make anything intrusive but that first category.


I think it may even be overused. And that's not right either. Still, I stand by my original thought that some things in life are more important then thinking about one's own inconvenience.


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## DamnedEyez (Oct 30, 2006)

I don't mind it so much when it is being used for something...but I've seen so many tests that it's irritating and I tend not to even look at it anymore. (Probably related to being a nightowl/work overnights)


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## dansevush (Sep 25, 2006)

hookbill said:


> That's assuming that we can even get OTA. I've said it once I'll say it a hundred times not everyone can get OTA.


I do all my recording using OTA and have the cablecards and a Comcast DVR for comparison and backups.

I never saw this message until the other night. It stopped a show I had previously recorded, but most annoyingly, with a test message.

The next night the same thing.

Then the next night.

This could be the end of my "experiment" and I'll disconnect my cablecards.

I understand the logic behind the spec, but Tivo could do a better job handling this interruption.

The first and most obvious feature is to note where you were when the interruption occurred and then return you to that point. If you were recording, continue recording with the insertion of a message that explains the time slice that's missing.

If you were playing back, bring you back to where you were watching.

Second, ignore test messages.


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## entropy (Apr 1, 2002)

hookbill said:


> A word please about the emergency interruptions. My God are we all so selfish that we can't allow the rest of the world in for an emergency? I say this because people say this is "annoying" and in another thread someone wanted to "op out" of these messages.


Yes, we are. And I'm even more selfish--I don't want my shows interrupted for stupid announcements about some politician dying or some equally pointless and transient crap. I don't want my shows interrupted for _anything_ except maybe impending nuclear attack.



> I still can understand the stress a parent feels if his/her child goes missing. So they cut in with the Amber alert. That parent is concerned about his/her child a human being that may be in trouble.


Asking ME for MY help is a favor. If they can't be bothered to wait until I'm ready to listen to them, I certainly won't care much about helping them, at least not until I've downloaded and watched the show they so rudely interrupted.



> Someones house may be getting ready to get hit in another part of your county or even yours. These are things that I feel are more important then missing a piece of "24


Exactly. These are things that YOU feel are more important. Many of the rest of us do not feel they are so important that they can't wait a few hours.



DCIFRTHS said:


> You wouldn't want to be informed if there was an emergency? Seriously?


One person's "emergency" is another person's "yawn" and someone else's "good riddance".

You might think that everyone should care about something that some particular person cares about, or as hookbill put it, that I or anyone else should be forced to "put up with somebody else's problems". I don't.

I care about many things that other people don't care about, but I don't expect them to put up with my interrupting things *they* care about so I can whine about things *I* care about. That should be a matter of choice.



dswallow said:


> I'd say a really simple way to decide if a EAS message should be forced upon someone is if that message has a high probability of saving the life *of the person watching/hearing it* versus if they didn't watch or hear it.


Exactly. But I should still be able to opt out.

~ Kiran <[email protected]>


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

dansevush said:


> Second, ignore test messages.


I won't disagree with most of what you're saying, but there's no wiggle room for Tivo on this one - it's completely up to the cable company. If a cablecard host gets an emergency alert of a high enough level, it must display it, as per the spec. There is a "test" level that hosts are allowed to ignore. So, if your cable company isn't using the test level, the host must display it.


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

Thread back from the dead.... wow.


Anyhow, knock on wood, I haven't gotten another EBS interruption that I know of since I originally posted here.


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

mattack said:


> So is there a way to complain to the CableCard consortium?


No use it required by the fed goverment to run the test. Your complains has to go Tivo


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

caddyroger said:


> No use it required by the fed goverment to run the test. Your complains has to go Tivo


The tests that are required are actually indicated as tests in the datastream. I don't think anyone at TiVo or elsewhere has confirmed that the TiVo units are ignoring the tests like they should or if they're being triggered by a test, or if the "test" is actually going out erroneously as a non-test signal (the station or cable company being at fault).

The standard defines specific messages and levels, and the standard permits the receiving device to have user-configured control over which messages cause interruptions and which are ignored.

At a minimum, I'd like to see TiVo modify their software to identify the raw data behind the signaling, so at least it can be determined if the station/cable company is sending out erroneous tests. And, at a minimum, TiVo should allow that level for interruption to be configured... even if in no other way than to permit tests to be ignored (presuming tests are not already ignored as they should be).


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## davidmin (Dec 3, 1999)

I just got one last night, luckily I wasn't recording anything. We don't have much use for them in California, I vaguely remember maybe a flooding warning a long time ago (which only affected the hinterlands). I think weekly tests sounds a bit excessive, monthly should do. And not during primetime!


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

dswallow said:


> The tests that are required are actually indicated as tests in the datastream. I don't think anyone at TiVo or elsewhere has confirmed that the TiVo units are ignoring the tests like they should


In Section 2.2.13 OOB EAS Tests of the "Unidirectional Receiving Device Acceptance Test Plan" Uni-Dir-ATP-I05-040629 step 21, exactly this behaviour is tested. So, any cablecard verified device MUST do this.



dswallow said:


> The standard defines specific messages and levels, and the standard permits the receiving device to have user-configured control over which messages cause interruptions and which are ignored.


You never replied to my comment above. Where in the specs does it allow a device to do what you're asking?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

davidmin said:


> I think weekly tests sounds a bit excessive, monthly should do.


Try daily.


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## sriggins (Feb 21, 2005)

I'm late to this thread, but this EAS stuff would actually CRASH my Comcast 6412 DVR so I not only lost TV, I never got to see the test message LOL (it just said EAS on the display)

It would be nice if there was a way to test the client hardware without changing the video. Its not like most people are up to SEE the tests anyway.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

entropy said:


> One person's "emergency" is another person's "yawn" and someone else's "good riddance".
> 
> You might think that everyone should care about something that some particular person cares about, or as hookbill put it, that I or anyone else should be forced to "put up with somebody else's problems". I don't.
> 
> I care about many things that other people don't care about, but I don't expect them to put up with my interrupting things *they* care about so I can whine about things *I* care about. That should be a matter of choice.


This is the perfect example of why the alert system should be optional (and also why the alert system is flawed).

Unless you are watching live, the alerts are useless any way. My S2 gets weather alerts in my recordings for storms that happened days ago. Not much use to me by the time I see them.


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## AgentSmith (Dec 22, 2001)

It doesn't matter. It's an FCC mandate that it work how it works, and it's in the brains of the CableCard. It's very unlikely that it'll change, and TiVo certainly can't do anything about it.



morac said:


> Unless you are watching live, the alerts are useless any way.


Not exactly. If a real-time EAS alert comes in while you're watching recorded content, the recorded content viewing is interrupted as well.

I for one want the functionality. Here in tornado alley, it's handy to have some mechanism notify me if I'm about to be vacuumed up to Oz.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

morac said:


> This is the perfect example of why the alert system should be optional (and also why the alert system is flawed).
> 
> Unless you are watching live, the alerts are useless any way. My S2 gets weather alerts in my recordings for storms that happened days ago. Not much use to me by the time I see them.


That's exactly the point of the S3 and cablecard regulations. As AgentSmith said, you will see the alerts when they happen if the TV is turned on. I've been listening to music through "Music, Photos, and more" and been interrupted for an alert.

The problem is that the S3 could handle the alert much more gracefully IF the regulations allowed them to (eg, at least continue recording on one tuner). But the regulations were not written with the S3 in mind; dual DVR tuners with 2 cablecards were evidently not on the lawmakers' radar!

Yes, the alert system can certainly be abused. I'm not in favor of the Amber Alert system; that doesn't pass my threshold for acceptability as presently used. But there needs to be some sort of emergency system that will interrupt your viewing of a recorded show. I'm glad they're doing it; it just needs to be fine-tuned some!


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## drcos (Jul 20, 2001)

I have seen these messages, and the S3 handles them poorly compared to the SA 8300. With the SA box, I could change channels and such with the message on the screen (and it displayed a lot quicker), or I could hit REW a couple times and the message would speed up and then go away.

With the S3, the message scrolls...across...the...screen...so...slowly...that...a...
two...year...old...could...learn...to...read...it...in...english...and...then...spanish...

This is poor implementation on Tivo's part, and could very well be a deal breaker for me. I don't need to take a five minute (yes, five minutes) break when one of these messages pops up. And NO I cannot get out of it by hitting CLEAR or any other button.

I see the message, I have decided it is unimportant to me, now **I** should be able to get it off my screen. And the box should be smart enough to keep recording stuff while it shows me the message!

Don't give me **** about requirements, this is poor implementation in the box.

This is pushing me back towards the Comcast boxes. Is Tivo working on fixing this problem, or are they going to hide behind the 'it's a requirement' thing?


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

I just read these requirements. There are three different priority levels. One is ignored, one has scrolling text (on the bottom) while allowing the user to view the current channel, and one forces the channel change. The channel change one is required to block user input for just 20 seconds, after which the box automatically switches back to the previous channel and reenables user input.

If you were playing something back or recording something and got interrupted, there's no requirement on what has to happen next. With the scrolling text one, nothing says you can't change channels or perform other functions.

Also, if the alert is high-prioirty, the standard doesn't state that the other tuner can't continue recording. It seems silly for both tuners to tune to the EAS channel -- the one NOT recording should tune to it. Tivo could have asked for clarification here.


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## visionary (May 31, 2006)

All this is the fault of stupid people in managment, just a question of who's company. The alerts have a class and tests have a class and if it is a test the TEST code should be used and the Tivo should ignore that. Now is the test being done properly? If not, it is the providers fault. Also, the provider can always do the test at 5am or something too. If the test code is interrupting the Tivo then it is Tivo to blame. However, since several say they see these on other DVR's too, I will bet it is the cable provider's dumb managers doing the test with the wrong codes. We already know they are stupidly doing them at wrong times, so that bolsters the dumb cable manager as the culprit.


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## drcos (Jul 20, 2001)

BobCamp1 said:


> The channel change one is required to block user input for just 20 seconds, after which the box automatically switches back to the previous channel and reenables user input.


Doesn't happen. You are stuck until the message scrolls across (twice in english, once in espanol).


BobCamp1 said:


> With the scrolling text one, nothing says you can't change channels or perform other functions.


Then it's how it's implemented in the TiVo. So this is TiVo's problem.


BobCamp1 said:


> Also, if the alert is high-prioirty, the standard doesn't state that the other tuner can't continue recording. It seems silly for both tuners to tune to the EAS channel -- the one NOT recording should tune to it. Tivo could have asked for clarification here.


But there is no 'channel' for the EBS/EAS info. Now, with 8.3xx, I don't know if it interrupts recordings (it did not stop buffering both channels I had tuned when it happened last night, just locked me out of ALL functions), so if it does not interrupt recordings, I can live with it. It is still poor implementation that I am locked out of any operations for 4-5 minutes while the message is repeated.


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## demon (Nov 15, 2006)

My S3 has the 8.3 software, and it does seem to correctly resume recording of shows after an Emergency Alert. I don't even so much mind the fact that if I'm watching something when one hits, I get booted out of what I'm watching - I could live with that. But the fact that the TiVo doesn't seem to be saving a resume point for what I was watching when it came on (try going through a 4.5 hour recording of (most of) the Indy 500 and getting booted out 4-5 times for EAS alerts) is really my main annoyance. If we could get that fixed, I'd be pretty much okay with it.


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## drcos (Jul 20, 2001)

I still am pretty sure there is no 'channel' to tune to for these messages, they are in the data stream (the same place as the authorization 'hits' and such). So they could be displayed overtop of whatever you are watching (live or recorded), and recordings need not be stopped.

And the suggestions on forums.Tivo.com of stopping this problem by putting the unit in Standby are just stupid. If I can't reliably record while I am actually using the Tivo...I might as well go back to the SA box.

I would suspect the lack of saving a resume point points (heh) towards this being a last minute bit of coding (kind of an ohs--- moment) when the fine programmers at Tivo were checking over all the nitpicky stuff in the spec.

Any insight from TiVo on when we might expect this to be addressed??


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

drcos said:


> I still am pretty sure there is no 'channel' to tune to for these messages, they are in the data stream (the same place as the authorization 'hits' and such). So they could be displayed overtop of whatever you are watching (live or recorded), and recordings need not be stopped.


There is a concept of a message indicating to tune to a specific channel for details, and that tuning to the designated channel being something the tuner is supposed to obey.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

The EAS channel for high-prioirty messages is otherwise hidden, so you can't tune to it yourself. There's a test for this as well.

Looks like Tivo took the easy route in implementing EAS, but forgot that test messages would be sent all the time. I'd complain to Tivo.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I've had two EBS tests in the last two weeks. The first time I was recording one program, the second time, yesterday, I was recording two programs. EAch time my recordings continued and weren't affected. Although I was locked out of changing to the other tuner or going into the menus until the test was finished. This seemed to work like it should. The info was overlayed on the screen, not recorded,and it didn't affect my recordings.


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## jjamezz (Jul 19, 2005)

hookbill said:


> A word please about the emergency interruptions. My God are we all so selfish that we can't allow the rest of the world in for an emergency? I say this because people say this is "annoying" and in another thread someone wanted to "op out" of these messages.
> 
> I don't have children but I still can understand the stress a parent feels if his/her child goes missing. So they cut in with the Amber alert. That parent is concerned about his/her child a *human being* that may be in trouble. We should be grateful for this technology because I guarantee that if it was one of your children you would want to get the word out any way possible.
> 
> ...


OMG!!!

First off... I could not agree more... IF THE ALERT WAS A SINGLE EVENT

Instead, our most recent event (Amber Alert I learned later...) recurred for 10-12 minutes every half hour for 10 hours (as confirmed by the cable operator).

AND THE WORST PART??? (why I learned it was an Amber Alert LATER!!!)
... each emergency notification came with a black screen that had absolutely NO MESSAGE. Tivo reps worked diligently with me to track down the problem for hours... and now I have an FCC rep working with me to address the utter lack of effectiveness of an alert system that somewhere along the way turned into an interrupt and do not share an ounce of information, don't provide the customer the product that is paid for 'SYSTEM'.

Final rant... IF THE GOV / CABLE SYSTEM / 'MAN' MUST TAKE CONTROL OF MY SERVICES AND EQUIPMENT, I SHOULD BE ABLE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE EVENT AND CEASE RECURRING NOTICES OF THAT VERY SAME EVENT. ANY little girl or boy would be worth me reading a message once and taking note/contributing if I have something to contribute.... BUT PLEASE ... At Least Give Me SOMETHING on that black screen when you shut off all the reason I pay for a service in the first place.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

Higuchem said:


> I am glad to see others find this a pain when recording shows. EBS Test happen to me yesterday not only once but three times that stopped my tivo recordings. I do ask for Tivo to find a way to fix this so that the tivo will go back to recording my shows.


It doesn't interrupt recordings when it's in standby, so be sure to turn it off when you're not using it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Why didn't it interrupt my recordings while I was watching them?


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## drcos (Jul 20, 2001)

I *still* think that most of the EBS stuff comes in on the OOB channels where the authorization data (and TVG for the SA boxes) resides. So, I will be paying attention this summer along with aaronwt, but my hope would be that it would NOT affect recordings.

Meanwhile, 'Message will Clear automatically'


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

It probably depends on what kind of EBS it is. If it's just a scrolling text message then I would say it shouldn't affect recordings at all.

If it is an all out alert where it forces a channel change and makes you watch that channel then at least one of the recordings will be interrupted. Fortunately these don't happen very often, if ever. This type of alert was designed to allow the president to break in to whatever you are watching and address the nation, but I don't think it's ever been used. If it was I think having your recordings resume would be the least of your worries as you'd be more worried about the rioting going on outside. 

And I really hope the cable companies wouldn't do a test with a priority one alert.


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