# TiVo Bolt Vox and Mini Vox MoCA Issues



## spakov (Dec 25, 2017)

Hi,

I'm no expert when it comes to any of this, but I've spent a good part of the day trying to figure out how to establish a MoCA network in my dad's house without a lot of success. This is an older house with some pretty long cable runs and has been used with DirecTV and cable TV previously. Currently there is cable TV and Internet through Time Warner Cable.

I've got the router connected directly to the Bolt via Ethernet and it appears to be in MoCA bridge mode (says MoCA + Ethernet and the box has good network connectivity). The Mini is in another room and I'm trying to get it connected via MoCA to the Bolt.

Outside the house I have the incoming line from TWC with a MoCA filter that was previously connected to an amplifier/splitter (PPC EVO 1-5-U/U). I tried establishing the MoCA network and got no connectivity on the Mini. I spent some time trying various things and eventually tried to connect the cables running from the Bolt to the Mini with a coupler and I was able to establish a MoCA network with no problems. This isn't really a viable solution since that means no Internet in the house, though.

I read that amplifiers potentially cause issues, so I bought a 4-way unpowered splitter (rated 5 MHz to 2.4 GHz) and connected that instead of the amplifier/splitter. (I have exactly four connections plus the incoming line.) Cable TV and Internet still seem to work fine (at least for the time being). However, I still can't establish a MoCA network without directly coupling the two lines between the Bolt and the Mini.

Previously the house had at various times DirecTV or TWC multi-room DVR systems, so I found some MoCA filters scattered around various connectors throughout the house. I've verified that I've removed all of these except for the one at the input line outside. (I also briefly tried with no filters and had no success.)

Does anyone have any suggestions on what to try next? I've pretty well reached the limit of my ability to troubleshoot this problem with the tools I have. I'd appreciate any advice.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

That's not _actually_ an amplifier. Sometimes it's called a 'unity gain amp' or a 'powered splitter'. It's designed for MoCA.

Have you tried connecting everything to it without any (or as few as possible) splitters?

-KP


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

What router are you using?

-KP


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## spakov (Dec 25, 2017)

kpeters59 said:


> What router are you using?
> 
> -KP


I tried with as few splitters as possible, but will pick up again with direct cable connections when it's light out and give it another shot. The router is the cable modem device provided by TWC, a Ubee DVW32CB. I was poking around in the administrative interface earlier and it looks like MoCA is disabled on that device.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

If it were me, I'd turn the router MoCA on, reconfigure the TiVo for MoCA (only) and then the Mini(s).

HTH.

-KP


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Given you're a TWC customer, I have to ask if you have a tuning adapter at the BOLT and, if so, how are the BOLT and TA connected to your coax?

For a MoCA setup, the BOLT DVR must *NOT* be connected through the tuning adapter's RF/STB Out port, as MoCA signals are severely attenuated passing through the TA. You need to use a splitter (ideally MoCA-compatible) to connect each device (BOLT & TA) directly to the coax plant, and you may also need to install a "protective" MoCA filter on the tuning adapter's coax input, if you find the TA becoming unstable after the MoCA network becomes operational.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

PPC EVO 1-5-U/U


kpeters59 said:


> That's not _actually_ an amplifier. Sometimes it's called a 'unity gain amp' or a 'powered splitter'. It's designed for MoCA.


That amp is NOT designed for MoCA; it's advertised as "MoCA compatible," but that just means it's been tested to work with MoCA. That it lacks a built-in MoCA filter is the first indicator that it's not a "designed for MoCA" amp; and I expect there may be special installation instructions that must be followed to maximize the chance that it works with MoCA.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> PPC EVO 1-5-U/U
> 
> That amp is NOT designed for MoCA; it's advertised as "MoCA compatible," but that just means it's been tested to work with MoCA. That it lacks a built-in MoCA filter is the first indicator that it's not a "designed for MoCA" amp; and I expect there may be special installation instructions that must be followed to maximize the chance that it works with MoCA.


Then there's this:


fcfc2 said:


> Regarding amps, I discovered that the PPC Evolution EVO1-5-U/U or PPC Evolution EVO1-9-U/U are also MoCA compatible. They lack the builtin POE filter but otherwise are designed similar to the PCT version in features.... ... They are what are referred to as "Entry" series and are usually placed at the main feed coming into the home. Apparently Comcast uses them with their xfinity systems.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

Comcast uses that amp as a MoCA compatible device.

-KP


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## SalemCat (Apr 13, 2006)

You state you have a MoCA Filter.

I'd just suggest, if all else fails, buy this one https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011SIE5EE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

All I know is it solved my problem when I installed it outside, right where the cable enters the Comcast Splitter.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

If that Unity Gain Amp really doesn't have a MoCA filter function, then one should be added as it DOES increase the MoCA signal level back in to the system.

-KP


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

kpeters59 said:


> If that Unity Gain Amp really doesn't have a MoCA filter function, then one should be added as it DOES increase the MoCA signal level back in to the system.


They *had* a "PoE" MoCA filter installed, previously...


spakov said:


> Outside the house I have the incoming line from TWC with a MoCA filter that was previously connected to an amplifier/splitter (PPC EVO 1-5-U/U). ...
> 
> I read that amplifiers potentially cause issues, so I bought a 4-way unpowered splitter (rated 5 MHz to 2.4 GHz) and connected that instead of the amplifier/splitter. (I have exactly four connections plus the incoming line.)


... and, yeah, it needs to be on the input port of their main distribution device, whether it's the PPC amp or the simple (ideally MoCA-compatible) splitter.

I was a little surprised to hear things didn't work with the 4-way splitter replacing the amp, but then we'd need to know the specs of the 4-way splitter to gauge whether it might be sub-optimal for MoCA (e.g. If it was a DirecTV SWM splitter), and the OP's problem description didn't explicitly state that the "PoE" MoCA filter was installed on the input of the 4-way during that test.

I'm still keeping my money on a tuning adapter in the setup, as that might help explain why the direct coupler works but the 4-way or amp push the losses beyond the MoCA limit.


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## spakov (Dec 25, 2017)

Thanks to all for your assistance with this. I got everything working and you all helped make my dad's Christmas. 

That is in fact the very MoCA filter I have on the outside. I did run the TA box through a splitter with a second MoCA filter to (hopefully) reduce the number of things that could be contributing to the issue. I ended up not reconnecting the amp and using the 4-way splitter since things seem to still be working fine with it. After eliminating a rat's nest of splitters throughout the house (after tracing every cable run) and getting all connections as clean as possible, I finally got a stable MoCA link going. I wish I could point to a specific single thing that made everything work as expected, but I think it was probably a variety of things that had been installed for historical reasons that were never quite kept up to date or removed when no longer necessary.

Any questions about the final setup, feel free to let me know.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

spakov said:


> I did run the TA box through a splitter with a second MoCA filter to (hopefully) reduce the number of things that could be contributing to the issue.


Did you _previously _have the BOLT connected via the tuning adapter's pass-through RF/STB Out port (i.e. as of when you posted the OP)?

Note that you can check the health of the current MoCA setup by viewing the MoCA stats via the Network Status dialog on either the BOLT or Mini. See here for more info (though the info hasn't yet been updated to address the Hydra/gen4 UI).

p.s. Glad to hear it's working, and especially that you did so before the close of Christmas. Nice work!


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## spakov (Dec 25, 2017)

krkaufman said:


> Did you _previously _have the BOLT connected via the tuning adapter's pass-through RF/STB Out port (i.e. as of when you posted the OP)?
> 
> Note that you can check the health of the current MoCA setup by viewing the MoCA stats via the Network Status dialog on either the BOLT or Mini. See here for more info (though the info hasn't yet been updated to address the Hydra/gen4 UI).
> 
> p.s. Glad to hear it's working, and especially that you did so before the close of Christmas. Nice work!


Great, thanks for that. Looks like both the TX and RX PHY rate are between 600 and 700, assuming I'm interpreting that number correctly. It was previously connected through the TA's pass-through port.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

spakov said:


> Great, thanks for that. Looks like both the TX and RX PHY rate are between 600 and 700, assuming I'm interpreting that number correctly. It was previously connected through the TA's pass-through port.


Ok, the TA pass-through was probably a BIG part of what was blocking the MoCA connection, though every bit of unnecessary or MoCA-hostile gear removed helps.

Those MoCA numbers threw me off for a moment, until I realized that you had a Mini VOX, so it's a standard MoCA 2.0 connection between the devices... capable of a data rate up to 400 Mbps. The 600-700 Mbps for PHY rate is in spec.

What are you seeing for *TX power estimate*?


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## spakov (Dec 25, 2017)

krkaufman said:


> What are you seeing for *TX power estimate*?


The TX power estimate looks to be 3 dBm on both ends.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

spakov said:


> The TX power estimate looks to be* 3 dBm* on both ends.


Just to be clear, *+ or - *3 dBm.. ? 

If +3 dBm, this is the max power amplification for the MoCA signal, so, curiously, the gear is having to boost the signal to make the connection. (The power estimate range is -30 dBm to +3.) So it wouldn't be surprising for the TA pass-through to add sufficient loss to break the connection.

If you get bored some time, and your dad isn't using the system, you can connect the Mini VOX directly via coax to the BOLT and then see what the MoCA stats report, to understand the best stats possible. As far as what to do to improve the situation (i.e. lower the power required by the MoCA gear), you could upgrade splitters to MoCA-compatible models, right-size splitters to just the number of ports needed for active equipment, etc.

But if things are working, probably best to get out of the way and let pop enjoy the show.

edit: p.s. Note that as you move from MoCA 1.1 to MoCA 2.0 (and hopefully someday MoCA 2.5), it becomes more important to use MoCA 2.0-compatible splitters (such as the Holland GHS-PRO-M models), since each associated increase in speed is accomplished by utilizing more bandwidth (a wider frequency range), so splitters that are adequate for the 50 MHz needed for MoCA 1.1 may be problematic for the 100 MHz needed for standard MoCA 2.0, and 200+ MHz for bonded/extended MoCA 2.0.


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## jeffl.ors (Oct 14, 2017)

spakov said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm no expert when it comes to any of this, but I've spent a good part of the day trying to figure out how to establish a MoCA network in my dad's house without a lot of success. This is an older house with some pretty long cable runs and has been used with DirecTV and cable TV previously. Currently there is cable TV and Internet through Time Warner Cable.
> 
> ...


First you need to make sure you have the tuning adapter provided by TWC. Next, an amplifier is not necessary because the minis do not have cable cards unlike cable company cable boxes that work off the cable system signals and can work alone as a stand alone cable box so signal is important. MoCa amplification is null with TiVo Mini's because they don't work that way, they only work with a TiVo DVR and they work 100% as a networked device and will work on a cable line up to 250ft so cable length is not your issue but the connectors could be if they are not quality connectors. Also you cannot use satellite splitters, only cable.
Be sure you do a network test on your minis and reboot your network as well. I don't recommend ever using a providers all-in-one modem/router either. Buy your own modem, I recommend Arris, and a separate router and WiFi system such as Eero, Google WiFi or such, NOT just a wireless router. I'm the largest TiVo dealer in Chicago and use MoCa 99% of the time and I use all of these steps for a reason. Best of luck.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Already solved by the OP, though there may be room for improvement.


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