# Disappointed in TiVo - Lack of Support for Series 3



## zjoe (Nov 1, 2006)

I'm not sure where to address this or if I'm the only one who feels this way, but I figured I'd start here.

First and foremost - I love TiVo. Back in the day when it was between ReplayTV and TiVo...I chose TiVo (even waiting until Sony released their TiVo branded box to get in on the action...then had 2 of those boxes!). I was also one of the first people to buy the Series3 when it came out. It had everything I wanted and at the time, TiVo also gave me the option to transfer my lifetime subscription to that box. I was more than happy to make the switch!

But after paying a very high price to get in on the Series3, I feel TiVo stopped supporting it and instead, focused on the lesser TiVo products that came next (at much cheaper price points). I think in the (however many years - 6 maybe?) I've owned my TiVo Series3, there has been 1 (maybe 2) software upgrades I can think of for it while I've sat by watching new rollouts happen for the other boxes and bringing with it more technological advancements such as the compatibility of the TiVo app with those boxes, on demand (in certain areas), vastly more storage space, HD menus, etc. 

I wish TiVo would help those who have supported the company for such a long time (including early adopters) by supporting these devices more instead of leaving them behind. Technology changes all the time and I'm sure there must be a reason a Series3 can't have HD menus for instance, but it would be great to feel supported. 

Maybe I'll get the new XL4, but I'm definitely wary of purchasing something that's not more for the masses (at a lower price point) that I know will receive more updates than something that's more expensive and for a niche audience.

Just wondering if any other Series3 owners out there feel the same way (which is why I'm putting it in this forum). If I'm off base, please let me know 

Signed - current and loyal TiVo customer -

Zak


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Have you not been here is a while? The horse has been dead for several years now, ever since the premiere first came out. Most have understood the reality of it, but I'm sure you'll find an ear as its been a while since someone has started a new topic about it.

The S3 had lots of updates, though most recently it was for Pandora, I believe. It still gets guide data, so it is clearly still supported.

You know that that old hardware cannot run the new software, right? Just like smartphones, PCs, or anything. Its processor is from 2006. If you had HD menus on that box, it would truly blow. Did you ever checked out the HD search on it? OUCH. 

You can install a bigger HD on your own, what complaint could you have there? DIY, off the shelf, or third party.  

You qualify for MSD, so there is that. Hopefully you have lifetime service, and if you upgrade you can sell the S3 and make something of the older technology.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

Series 3's are old tech. It makes no sense for Tivo to upgrade them with the same features as the newer boxes. If they did, there would be no reason for anyone to upgrade. As for the cost, in case you haven't noticed, with the lower cost of the Tivo has come higher subscription costs. The cheapest Tivo is the Premier at $150. I'm not sure what you mean by "lesser Tivo products" because you then say how much better the new boxes are with added features. You want to talk about not being supported? Go chat with the Series 1 owners in the UK who had their service terminated altogether this year.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

As A TiVo HD owner I can sypathize with you but I think your expectations are unrealistic. I've heard that Apple isn't supporting 3 or 4 year old iPhones very well either, and they cost as much as TiVo's. TiVo sales volume is probably about 1/100th of Apple's. They can't absorb the cost of updating old product lines, especially considering they don't make a significant (or any?) profit on the boxes.

I do wish TiVo had a policy of automatically granting lifetime subscriptions on any box that had paid monthly or yearly for say four years. In a de facto way they do have that. After I had paid yearly for my HD for three years (this June) they let me pay just $99 for lifetime -- but I had to play a game of threatening to cancel my subscription and wait while the rep went to talk to his manager to get it. (The old car salesman schtick.)


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

dlfl said:


> I do wish TiVo had a policy of automatically granting lifetime subscriptions on any box that had paid monthly or yearly for say four years. In a de facto way they do have that. After I had paid yearly for my HD for three years (this June) they let me pay just $99 for lifetime -- but I had to play a game of threatening to cancel my subscription and wait while the rep went to talk to his manager to get it. (The old car salesman schtick.)


So you basically want a 4 year interest free loan. Yea, not gonna happen.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

WhiskeyTango said:


> So you basically want a 4 year interest free loan. Yea, not gonna happen.


Nah, let's not quibble about the interest. Four years of $129 subscriptions would be $516. That's reasonable enough for lifetime plus some interest.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Umm, pay lifetime in the first place, and if the Tivo lasts 4 years, you 'won'.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

zjoe said:


> I think in the (however many years - 6 maybe?) I've owned my TiVo Series3, there has been 1 (maybe 2) software upgrades I can think of for it<snip>


For the first few years of the S3 units (S3 & HD), they had at least two updates a year, if not more. It was supported as long as it was the lead dog. Once they came out with a newer product (S4), they basically only sent updates that were either mission-critical or easy to do across the product line. All their effort was on the newer units.

As it should be. This is a de facto way of life in technology.

How long has your cell phone provider updated your cell phone? One is lucky if you get a single upgrade during the two year typical lifespan. Kindle? I think I've had one or two updates in 3+ years.

Want newer features? Buy a newer TiVo.:up:


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

I have my day one S3 with PLS and it runs fine, it's easily expandable, and the best machine I've ever owned with my Elite being #2, I don't see any "lack of support" with it.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Zak,

I've had my Series 3's since December 2006 and January 2007 when I took advantage of upgrading from my original S1's and transferring lifetime service from each for $199. I'm afraid that I disagree with you on the support side as I certainly have received a number of upgrades/new features in the past 5 1/2 years. The ones that I use the most often have been the following:

- Ability to download HD content to our PCs (was not in the original feature set)
- Netflix
- Pandora

I for one do not have the expectation of new updates after newer models are released as is the case with most technology. The same thing occurred when the S2's were released and my S1's stopped getting updates, but they kept doing what I originally purchased them for and kept on working fine for almost 7 years before we upgraded to the S3's (and I still had one in my son's game room recording in manual mode until a couple months ago when Comcast went all digital so 10 years on that one).

Scott


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

zjoe said:


> But after paying a very high price to get in on the Series3, I feel TiVo stopped supporting it and instead, focused on the lesser TiVo products that came next (at much cheaper price points).


If any of that focus had produced anything of real note in the way of new features, you might have something of a point, albeit not much. As it is, I fail to discern one.



zjoe said:


> I think in the (however many years - 6 maybe?)


Not yet. If you received one of the very first ones off the line, it will be six years in a few weeks.



zjoe said:


> I've owned my TiVo Series3, there has been 1 (maybe 2) software upgrades I can think of for it


Try at least 14, and more if you include minor transient upgrades, from release 8.0.1a to the current release 11.0k. They have added native support for numerous USB devices, as well as adding support for MRV, TTG, external hard drives, and a number of HME enhancements. (I don't recall at the moment whether the original S3 initially had GoBack enabled, or not. If not, then add GoBack to the list, as well.) They have expanded the seach functions greatly, introducing Boolean functions and other capabilities. They have fixed numerous bugs ranging from playback issues of videos sent to the TiVo from a PC to issues with some FIOS customers.

In short, your perception just does not match reality.

Do you have any PCs running Windows? Did Microsoft offer a free upgrade from 2000 to XP to Vista to Win 7 on any of your machines?



zjoe said:


> while I've sat by watching new rollouts happen for the other boxes and bringing with it more technological advancements such as the compatibility of the TiVo app with those boxes


What boxes?



zjoe said:


> vastly more storage space


Not so much. It's true the 32 bit structure of the S3 limits the partition size to about 1.2 TB, but updating that structure to 64 bits (like the THD) would present a monumental support headache. More to the point, it just really is not wise to load the S3 (or any DVR, really) with much more than 2T of storage. In the case of the S3, merely managing that many shows is tedious and excessively time consuming, especially given the speed of its processor. In any DVR, loading up the machine with too many shows is a poor idea. Use an external server with RAID and backup capabilities, unless you want to eventually suddenly lose 300 or so recordings with no way to recover.



zjoe said:


> HD menus, etc.


<Yawn>



zjoe said:


> I wish TiVo would help those who have supported the company for such a long time (including early adopters) by supporting these devices more instead of leaving them behind.


So your machines are all on month-month plans? If not, you haven't supported diddly. If you have PLS, then you paid them once, some six years ago, for a device they provided you and upgraded regualrly throughout its expected life. In the mean time, you've done nothing for them.



zjoe said:


> Signed - current and loyal TiVo customer -


Loyal in what way? How much revenue have you sent TiVo's way in tyhe last five years or so? Technically, how do you even rate as a customer? A customer is someone who purchases a current product from a company. Again, unless you are still paying MTM, or have bought a TiVo product from TiVo or a reseller lately, then in reality you aren't even a customer, the fact TiVo chooses to continue to treat you like one notwithstanding.

You paid a premium to be an early adopter of an admittedly wonderful technology. You have gotten more use of that product than the manufacturer expected, and continue to rely on resources they provide on an obsolete - if nonetheless superior - product. So what's your beef?


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

lrhorer said:


> Loyal in what way? How much revenue have you sent TiVo's way in tyhe last five years or so? Technically, how do you even rate as a customer? A customer is someone who purchases a current product from a company. Again, unless you are still paying MTM, or have bought a TiVo product from TiVo or a reseller lately, then in reality you aren't even a customer, the fact TiVo chooses to continue to treat you like one notwithstanding.


I agree with much of your post, but not this last point. If TiVo doesn't consider product-lifetime subscribers to be customers, then they shouldn't be offering lifetime service. I paid big bucks to TiVo in advance for PLS, trusting that they would stay in business and continue to support the product. They've had the use of my money for all that time. So don't try to accuse product-lifetime customers of being some kind of freeloaders. If TiVo decides that old customers aren't worth supporting, they may have trouble finding new customers.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

L David Matheny said:


> I agree with much of your post, but not this last point. If TiVo doesn't consider product-lifetime subscribers to be customers, then they shouldn't be offering lifetime service. I paid big bucks to TiVo in advance for PLS, trusting that they would stay in business and continue to support the product. They've had the use of my money for all that time. So don't try to accuse product-lifetime customers of being some kind of freeloaders. If TiVo decides that old customers aren't worth supporting, they may have trouble finding new customers.


But the point is made and seconded, many features were added to the S3 and it's still supported, it still operates, and does far more than when you bought it, there's no question that it's "supported"

It's long been known that break even for an end user on PLS being a better deal than monthly or yearly is the 3 year mark, most of us are long past that. PLS is not the money maker for Tivo, and since they're still not in the black it's a show of faith on our side that they'll stay in business, but we want them to be profitable, and they do not make money on us after year 3.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

A true loyal customer would buy each new Tivo as it is released along with all the accessories (TiVo wireless adapter, TiVo Preview, the streaming box, etc.). 
Just like some people do with iPhones.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

It is indeed disappointing. There are many Premiere features that couldn't be ported to the Series 3, but many others that could (and some I'm not sure about).


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

dianebrat said:


> But the point is made and seconded, many features were added to the S3 and it's still supported, it still operates, and does far more than when you bought it, there's no question that it's "supported"
> 
> It's long been known that break even for an end user on PLS being a better deal than monthly or yearly is the 3 year mark, most of us are long past that. PLS is not the money maker for Tivo, and since they're still not in the black it's a show of faith on our side that they'll stay in business, but we want them to be profitable, and they do not make money on us after year 3.


Actually I was just disagreeing with the assertion that PLS owners are not really customers. I think TiVo _does_ consider us customers, and they generally give us about as much support as we can reasonably expect.


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## zjoe (Nov 1, 2006)

Thanks to all who responded to the thread (even those who vehemently disagreed with my post) 

It's hard to believe the S3 came out nearly 6 years ago (and yes, I got one of the first ones - which I then had to replace early on as there was an issue with the hard drive). The points in all the replies have been noted and I do consider myself a TiVo customer even though I purchased the lifetime subscription ages ago (and then took advantage of their promotion to port - for a fee - my lifetime subscription from the Sony SVR-2000 to the S3. Yes, I keep my technology for a long time when I consider it good - which is why I continue to keep and love the S3).

I hope TiVo has a promotion to port (yes, for a fee [lest anyone get upset thinking I'm complaining too much]) the lifetime subscription again soon to a newer box, but it's been harder and harder to sell the purchase of a TiVo box to others when there are other, cheaper, solutions out there.

I continue to maintain my love for TiVo as a company and product and thank those who have taken an interest in this thread.

And sorry this topic had already been brought up (as was pointed out to me at first). I didn't search the archive and yes, it has been a very long time since I've visited this forum.

Thanks


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I've never had any problem selling a TiVo box with lifetime service. A TiVo with lifetime service has a high resale value. The original S3 boxes with lifetime service are still selliing for $300. Even more if the hard drive has been upgraded. That is a good deal for a box that is almost six years aold.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

L David Matheny said:


> I agree with much of your post, but not this last point. If TiVo doesn't consider product-lifetime subscribers to be customers, then they shouldn't be offering lifetime service.


Why not? Their business plan offers the consumer two options: pay up front for the cost of the unit or defer a part of the purchase price by paying it off monthly. A customer obtains full value for his outlay of cash for PLS after somewhere between 2 - 3 years. Anything beyond that and he is extracting greater value than for which he paid. He is not doing so illegally, immorally, or unethically, but he still is getting better value than which he could otherwise expect.



L David Matheny said:


> I paid big bucks to TiVo in advance for PLS, trusting that they would stay in business and continue to support the product.


For how long? 10 years? 100 years? 1000 years? There has to be a point where one reasonably accepts they have gotten their money's worth, and more. I have a friend who owns a working TV (after being restored) built in the early 1930s. Should anyone else who bught a TV later than that and had to replace it in a mere 40 or 50 years feel cheated?

Perhaps more to the point, virtually every person - including probably you - who purchases PLS does so because they feel it will cost them less in the long run than MTM. Most people who went with MTM on an S3 and are still paying that have dumped a whole heck of a lot more money into their S3 than one who bellied up for PLS. Why would those people be less deserving of upgrades?



L David Matheny said:


> They've had the use of my money for all that time.


That is irrelevant. First of all, they have not had use of most of that money for any time whatsoever. After accounting for the cost of producing and shipping the unit, and after discounting any profit by a retail outlet, if any, TiVo only made a small profit from you. Yet now they continue to absorb the cost of providing the guide and software updates without any additional renumeration. It's a fairly safe bet you probably purchased an automobile within a year or two of buying your TiVo, and payed a great deal more for it, to boot. How many free upgrades have you received on that vehicle in the same time period? What maintenance items (gas, oil, lube, washer fluid, brake fluid, etc.) does the manufacturer continue to prrovide free of charge?



L David Matheny said:


> So don't try to accuse product-lifetime customers of being some kind of freeloaders.


I never did. There is a big difference between being a freeloader and having unrealistic expectations. Paying for something, even an extravagant amount, only entitles the individual to a certain amount of exchanged value. Feeling entitled does not mean one actually is.



L David Matheny said:


> If TiVo decides that old customers aren't worth supporting, they may have trouble finding new customers.


Increasing the number of customers upon which a company loses money is the worst thing any company can do.



dianebrat said:


> But the point is made and seconded, many features were added to the S3 and it's still supported, it still operates, and does far more than when you bought it, there's no question that it's "supported"


Yeah, exactly. How many other consumer devices can one purchase whose capabilities are upgraded over time free of charge? Bug fixes, sometimes, but actual, incremental positive changes in functionality? I can't think of any. I challenge anyone here to list three of them.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

L David Matheny said:


> Actually I was just disagreeing with the assertion that PLS owners are not really customers.


By any reasonable definition, a customer is someone who offers renumeration - usually money - to a company in exchange for items sold by the company. Certainly the connotation would normally be considered to extend a little while beyond the moment of purchase - perhaps to the end of the warranty, but generally speaking calling anyone who hasn't paid a cent to a company in almost six years a "customer" is stretching it, especially if the company has come out with some number of newer models of significantly different design in the interim. Again, if you walked up to a car dealer who sold you a car six years ago and said, "I bought this car six years ago, and I don't intend to buy a new one any time soon, but I demand you upgrade the vehicle with all the new standard feeatures without charging me a penny", the dealer would toss you out on your ear.

Consider this: Suppose every single person who owns a Series III or above TiVo today had purchassed that TiVo with PLS the day the S3 was introduced, and not one had purchased a single TiVo since. Obvously, TiVo would have had a terrific 2006 profit, but do you think they would still be in business after six years without a single cent of revenue since then?



L David Matheny said:


> I think TiVo _does_ consider us customers, and they generally give us about as much support as we can reasonably expect.


And I said precisely that:



lrhorer said:


> then in reality you aren't even a customer, the fact TiVo chooses to continue to treat you like one notwithstanding.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> It is indeed disappointing.


Well, of course it is.* It is also disappointing that despite paying a rather high price for dinner out at a restaurant last night, I am going to have to pay for dinner again tonight. The realization I am going to have to cook it myself tonight makes it even more disappointing, the fact it will actually cost less than I paid last night notwithstanding.

* - actually, not so much. I have a Premier, provided in the bundle I am getting from my CATV company. It's a hunk of junk. It is missing a number of important key features the S3 has, and has little or nothing of any interest over and above the S3s features, other than network speed. The S3s and even the THD get a lot more use, and I certainly would not pay $100 for a Premier as long as I can get an S3 or THD for $200. (Service excluded on both.)


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Once they came out with a newer product (S4), they basically only sent updates that were either mission-critical or easy to do across the product line.


Yes, but they *DID* send them, didn't they? The most notable is probably the slide remote. That was released with the S4, but works fine with the S3. They could just as easily have coded the slide remote drivers in such a way the S3 could not use it, as an incentive to upgrade to a Premier. They chose not to do so.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

zjoe said:


> I hope TiVo has a promotion to port (yes, for a fee [lest anyone get upset thinking I'm complaining too much]) the lifetime subscription again soon to a newer box...


I'm with you right there. I have an unactivated Premiere just waiting for an S2 PLS transfer promotion.
If it never happens, oh well. I'll just continue to use my 2 TivoHDs.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

lrhorer said:


> Perhaps more to the point, virtually every person - including probably you - who purchases PLS does so because they feel it will cost them less in the long run than MTM. Most people who went with MTM on an S3 and are still paying that have dumped a whole heck of a lot more money into their S3 than one who bellied up for PLS. Why would those people be less deserving of upgrades?


Of course I purchased PLS because I believed that the TiVo would have a long enough useful life for it to be the better deal. Maybe people who went with MTM payments didn't believe that, or maybe they just didn't want to pay in advance. TiVo offers various contract options, and anyone who accepts their terms is equally deserving of continuing support and maybe occasional upgrades. I deserve support, and so does every MTM customer. And TiVo understands that, which is the point I was trying to make. We're all customers.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Tivo is nothing more than a computer and how long do computers last people these such that they stop getting upgrades or if they can get the upgrade the software grinds to a halt. I would guess about 4 years.

It's not a dishwasher or a TV that might go 10 years.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> Yes, but they *DID* send them, didn't they? The most notable is probably the slide remote. That was released with the S4, but works fine with the S3. They could just as easily have coded the slide remote drivers in such a way the S3 could not use it, as an incentive to upgrade to a Premier. They chose not to do so.


If you are going to quote me, then at least take a minute to understand my point, and not twist it. My very next line was "As it should be".

We are both making the same point. Yes, rare that we agree, but we both are posting about our satisfaction and understanding of TiVo and its upgrade process. Yet the way you took my post out of context makes it seem like you are debating against me.

Not appreciated.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

astrohip said:


> If you are going to quote me, then at least take a minute to understand my point, and not twist it. My very next line was "As it should be".
> ..........


You just don't get it. When you and lrhorer say essentially the same thing, he is the one that is correct.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> Yes, but they *DID* send them, didn't they?


That was clearly his point.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> [The Premiere] is missing a number of important key features the S3 has


Nonsense.

- Hackability (your fixation) is accidental, not a feature.
- The OLED display is a minor feature, not key.
- S-video is also minor.

There are no other differences between the units that break in the S3's favor. And don't say solid construction, that's BS -- it just means the S3 is bigger and heavier.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> ....- Hackability (your fixation) is accidental, not a feature.
> .........


"Fixation" -- Finally, the perfect adjective for lrhorer's state of mind on hacking!  (I'm just envious, of course.)


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Actually, the one thing I miss on my Elite that my S3 has is FF1X with captions. Updates on the S4 have removed that, and the lack of updating the S3 has preserved it.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I'd call the OLED display a "semi-major" feature.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

dlfl said:


> ...I've heard that Apple isn't supporting 3 or 4 year old iPhones very well either, and they cost as much as TiVo's....


BS....I paid full retail for my S3 when it came out in Sept. of 2006 -- $799 -- then added a larger HD for another couple hundred. So I have WAY more invested in it than an iPhone (which I just paid $300 for).

I'm not arguing that TiVo should do anything more than they have with it. I've been VERY fortunate that my S3 has run virtually flawlessly (except for the audio problem where I have to hit the skip back button to get it to work sometimes)....


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Here's MY thought on "support". If my monthly fee paid to Tivo is NOT just for guide data (as many advocates will clearly state), then why SHOULDN'T I expect new features and continued development for my money? I would propose Tivo give a monthly service fee reduction for all devices that are no longer actively being updated. Really, why should I pay the same amount each month for a box that is dead, updates-wise?

I'm not sure how much of a discount is fair, but I've maintained for years that a big enough discount could lure many old Tivos out of closets and yardsales and become an extra source of income. Clearly, they must recoup their costs of providing guide data, but how much could that cost? I know many Series 2 units that would be in kids' and guest rooms if the monthly fee were something closer to $8 (think Netflix streaming fee).


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

The monthly costs also subsidize the below cost nature of retail boxes. Its never been just for guide data provision and maintenance.

As stated numerous times, the old hardware cannot support the new software. Just like how the old series 2s cannot support digital tuners. They just cannot do it.

There is an indirect fee reduction going on- the many lifetime offers for $99. Take advantage of it.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> ...... I've heard that Apple isn't supporting 3 or 4 year old iPhones very well either, and they cost as much as TiVo's. .....





Bierboy said:


> BS....I paid full retail for my S3 when it came out in Sept. of 2006 -- $799 ........


A quote from the wikipedia article on iPhone:


> Apple reduced the price several times since the iPhone's release in 2007, at which time an 8 GB iPhone sold for $599


OK not the "same" but in the ball park, and the difference doesn't undermine the basic point of my post, which is that it's unrealistic to expect TiVo to upgrade 4-year old products when even Apple doesn't do so.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Well if you go by the price in 2007 for the iphone of $599. That was more than the Series 3 TiVoHD that was released in Summer 2007.
Well I guess if you add lifetime service to the price. It was one dollar less than the iPhone. The TiVoHD retailed for $299 and the lifetime service with MSD was $299.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

dlfl said:


> ... it's unrealistic to expect TiVo to upgrade 4-year old products when even Apple doesn't do so.


That's STILL BS....Apple updates system software that runs on machines WAY more than four years old. I have the hardware as proof....


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

jrtroo said:


> The monthly costs also subsidize the below cost nature of retail boxes. Its never been just for guide data provision and maintenance.


Yes, but for how long? I think bmgoodman's point is very valid - at some point the monthly sub price should be cut in half (ballpark) to reflect that the full value of the sub has been realized, and that no more updates are being made for older boxes. And as he said, to get those older boxes back on the dole for Tivo.

But then you risk cannibalizing sales of current-gen stuff by making the older subs cheaper. Tivo is their own worst enemy here by not making the S4 a compelling enough upgrade over the S3 (at least until the 4-tuner boxes were released).


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Of course, Tivo is in business to get profitable. Their pricing seems to indicate that they are better off getting new premieres out the door than having extra cheap monthly S3s come back into service. They have shown they are willing to provide extremely cheap service- the $99 lifetime offers. Tell me, what is better than that offer?



> Apple updates system software that runs on machines WAY more than four years old.


This is mostly irrelevant- they also STOP offering updates to systems much younger than that. In addition, their decisions are based, primarily, on if the hardware can run the new software. Clearly, that is a big part of what has happened to the S3, as that hardware cannot keep up with any HD menus (among other things). Have you tried the search "Beta"? OUCH.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

zjoe said:


> I hope TiVo has a promotion to port (yes, for a fee [lest anyone get upset thinking I'm complaining too much]) the lifetime subscription again soon to a newer box


My mom has called them asking to transfer theirs from their S1 that I bought them in 2000, and they did offer to do it for a discount. I want to say that they told her $299.

As for us, we did take advantage of the free transfer from S1 to S3 when it came out, for two of our S1's (and have a third just collecting dust), so we have been stretching that $199 out for 12 years now!

We'd like to upgrade, but our S3's are still fine, so we can't really bring ourselves to spend the money. I do hope there is a promotion again, too, although now that there is a 4 tuner box, we could just go from two to one box, which is a little less to take than having to buy two all new PLS's.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> That's STILL BS....Apple updates system software that runs on machines WAY more than four years old. I have the hardware as proof....


I was talking about 4-year old iPhones, as I made clear. I don't have one but (as I originally said) I've HEARD they are not updated now. If that is incorrect, please feel free to correct it, throwing in as many "BS" 'es as you find theraputic.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I went to windows media center becouse tivo would not fix the gc file problem. I also wanted 4 tuner and ota tuners. The only way i could do that was make it myself

My tivo is still running in my bedroom.



jrtroo said:


> Of course, Tivo is in business to get profitable. Their pricing seems to indicate that they are better off getting new premieres out the door than having extra cheap monthly S3s come back into service. They have shown they are willing to provide extremely cheap service- the $99 lifetime offers. Tell me, what is better than that offer?
> 
> This is mostly irrelevant- they also STOP offering updates to systems much younger than that. In addition, their decisions are based, primarily, on if the hardware can run the new software. Clearly, that is a big part of what has happened to the S3, as that hardware cannot keep up with any HD menus (among other things). Have you tried the search "Beta"? OUCH.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

tootal2 said:


> I went to windows media center becouse tivo would not fix the gc file problem.


The what?


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

wmcbrine said:


> The what?


Gc is the garbage colletion file. It wont delete itself when theres a tuning adaptor on a tivo hd.

If the gc does not delete itself for more then a week you get false warnings about the guide info running out. it also cause s03 errors.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

dlfl said:


> I was talking about 4-year old iPhones, as I made clear....


I used your exact quote, unedited, so I don't believe you (BS) made yourself (BS) "clear".....


----------



## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> ....... I've heard that Apple isn't supporting 3 or 4 year old iPhones very well either .......





Bierboy said:


> I used your exact quote, unedited, so I don't believe you (BS) made yourself (BS) "clear".....


I believe I did, mr. BS man. You just jumped in later and didn't bother to notice it. Here's a place where you can go BS yourself silly, and get all that immature bombast out of your system: 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=23


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> That's STILL BS....Apple updates system software that runs on machines WAY more than four years old. I have the hardware as proof....


I can't wait to install iOS6 on my Gen 1 iPad I bought 18 months ago.


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## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

Someone ementioned in this thread that older boxes at least get updates for some things like remote codes. I can verify that even my S2 boxes have been updated because I never could find a code for my orphan Olevia TV. Now it's in there.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

SullyND said:


> I can't wait to install iOS6 on my Gen 1 iPad I bought 18 months ago.


I can't even install iOS5 on my iPhone 3G... Apple Sucks!


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

L David Matheny said:


> Of course I purchased PLS because I believed that the TiVo would have a long enough useful life for it to be the better deal.[//quote]
> Well, that's the point. At best, purchasing PLS has nothing to do with loyalty, but in fact usually is the opposite of being loyal, since doing so seeks to pay less for the product than would otherwise be the case. The fact one purchased a unit many years ago in no way implies loyalty.
> 
> 
> ...


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

tootal2 said:


> Gc is the garbage colletion file. It wont delete itself when theres a tuning adaptor on a tivo hd.


That is inaccurate. Some systems have problems with the gc not deleting with a TA attached. Definitely not all, and I think not most.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

astrohip said:


> If you are going to quote me, then at least take a minute to understand my point, and not twist it. My very next line was "As it should be".


I understood your point, agreed with it, and emphasized it.



astrohip said:


> We are both making the same point.


Yes, I know. What about my response suggested to you I did not know?



astrohip said:


> Yes, rare that we agree


'Irrelevant, and in fact I take no notice of whether or how often someone agrees or disagrees with me. One's individual points are either valid or not (in context, of course) and must be addressed correspondingly. Keeping score would be childish.



astrohip said:


> but we both are posting about our satisfaction and understanding of TiVo and its upgrade process. Yet the way you took my post out of context makes it seem like you are debating against me.


I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, especially since the very first work of my response was "Yes". I felt that some of what you implied would be better expressed and in fact emphasized. That is hardly debating against you.



astrohip said:


> Not appreciated.


I'm not sure how to respond. Nothing in my post in any way contradicted anything you said, but instead reinforced it. I'm having trouble understanding why you would actively not appreciate support.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> That was clearly his point.


Yes, it was. It was also a point clearly missed by others in the thread. I then supported his position and provided examples.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> - Hackability (your fixation) is accidental, not a feature.


'Irrelevant. The bottom line for any product is its actual capabilities, completely irrespective of what the designer's intent might have been. The Premier is simply 100% incapable of providing a very large array of features the S3 and THD can. There are quite a few threads right now on this website referring to problems people have encountered with Premiers that would not be show stoppers with an S3 or THD, ranging from a recording of an Olympic game that will not fully transfer to an external device to someone who wants to purchase a new TiVo for his parents but won't be able to transfer the videos from the old one, and a whole plethora in between.

In this case it is even less nonsensical than otherwise might have been the case, because TiVo incrementally augmented their security for only one reason: CableLabs demanded it. It is anathema that any organization, especially one like CableLabs exert any sort of control over a product owned by someone else. In short, it is none of their QW#%^@ business what someone attempts to copy or where. It would be just as objectionable if the government exercised such control, but they aren't even the government.

Copying copy protected videos is only the tip of the iceberg, however. The number of features available to TiVos other than S4s is quite large. Most involve modifying the TiVo, but some do not.



wmcbrine said:


> - The OLED display is a minor feature, not key.


Agreed, which is why, apart from performance, I don't disdain the purchase of a THD. Certainly in my case I cannot read the OLED display anyway. The front panel buttons can be significant, however, although also admittedly fairly minor.



wmcbrine said:


> - S-video is also minor.


That depends on what sort of monitor one has. I definitely don't want to have to spring $200 - $300 for a new TV in the guest room. In the theater, the living room, or my roommate's room, the question is moot.

Those are not the only missing features, however. At the very top of the list is the badly crippled search functions, particularly the title search, on the Premier. It knocks down the capabilities of the Premier by well over 30%. Indeed, even the S3's title search is not really good enough, which is why I use the search in TiVoWebPlus, but the Premier has access to neither, making it about half way to useless. As I pointed out, I have a Premier given to me without additional cost, and I would not be willing to pay even $100 for it with PLS, despite the fact most of the channels on my CATV provider's system are not copy protected, with HBO and Cinemax being the exceptions.



wmcbrine said:


> There are no other differences between the units that break in the S3's favor.


'Sorry, but apparently you haven't bothered to look very hard. I found at least six the very first day of full use. At least one of them is a deal breaker, even if one discounts the Premier's inability under any circumstances to handle copy protected material in a reasonable fashion and its inability to handle situations like pause adds, NCID, MFS_FTP, enhanced schedule conflict handling, enhanced channel lineup handling, enhanced software upgrade handling, NTP, telnet, and a host of other options allowed by hacking. Even with all that aside, however, the Premier is junk, except for its network performance.

Discounting those capabilities is completely specious, however. The simple fact and the bottom line if it all is if I replaced my S3 and THD units with any version of Premier, I would not be able to do those things, and that is completely unacceptable, no matter how one looks at it. What's more, if I were still on Time Warner Cable, the premier would be very nearly 100% useless. It could not do *ANYTHNG* I demand of my TiVos, except play back the videos that the other TiVos record.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Exactly what features that do not involve modifying the TiVo are available on the S3 that are not available on the S4? You mention a couple of things in your first paragraph, one of which (the problem with the Olympics recording) may or may not have anything to do with the Premiere. The other one involving the Christmas gift and the inability to transfer files I know *for a fact* has nothing to to with the new TiVo being a Premiere. It's because the new TiVo and the existing TiVo wouldn't be on the same account.


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## MHunter1 (Oct 11, 2007)

astrohip said:


> one thing I miss on my Elite that my S3 has is FF1X with captions


I miss that feature desperately! The purpose of TiVo is to save time watching TV. Watching talk shows at double-speed with captions was like reading a transcript -- very efficient. Now the captions scroll by at such a grueling pace it's not enjoyable anymore. And captions no longer show up at all when transferring a program from TiVo to PC and back to TiVo.

TiVo, how can we recommend you to generic DVR users when the features we've been using for years are suddenly taken away?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> Exactly what features that do not involve modifying the TiVo are available on the S3 that are not available on the S4?


As I mentioned, they have badly crippled what TiVo termed the "Title Search". Actually, the new feature actually is a tile search, which is almost completely useless, while the old one was an index search of filtered titles. By a wide margin, the three most important core recording features of the S3 and previous models are the Title Search, Wishlists, and TiVo Suggestions. If both guides and all other search utilities were removed from the S3, almost every recording scenario could be covered by use of those three utilities, and most of the other recording features could be emulated reasonably well by them. TiVo has gutted the Title Search to unusability.



lpwcomp said:


> You mention a couple of things in your first paragraph, one of which (the problem with the Olympics recording) may or may not have anything to do with the Premiere.


'Not relevant to the point at hand. Whether the cause of the issue is directly related to the Premier or not, the owner is stuck because there are no other options for alleviating the issue on the Premier than those he has already tried. If it were an S3, he could potentially employ no fewer than 3 other options. Of course, there is no guarantee these would work, either, but when in a similar situation to his, on over a dozen files one or the other of these three has worked in every single case except one, when all the options available to the Premier except for PS transfer failed.



lpwcomp said:


> The other one involving the Christmas gift and the inability to transfer files I know *for a fact* has nothing to to with the new TiVo being a Premiere. It's because the new TiVo and the existing TiVo wouldn't be on the same account.


Yes, but since hacked TiVos can be induced to transfer to a TiVo on another account via intermediary...

Actually, the same is true of a Premier, but only if the CCI byte is not set and only by first transferring to a server and decrypting the file. If the CCI byte is set, and it is a Premier, one is hosed.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I havent had any problem the the gc file since i moved my tivo to my bedroom. and my tivo suggestions started working again. I dont know why its working. Its cable only now with no antenna. I use to have a antenna on it.



lrhorer said:


> That is inaccurate. Some systems have problems with the gc not deleting with a TA attached. Definitely not all, and I think not most.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> As I mentioned, they have badly crippled what TiVo termed the "Title Search". Actually, the new feature actually is a tile search, which is almost completely useless, while the old one was an index search of filtered titles. By a wide margin, the three most important core recording features of the S3 and previous models are the Title Search, Wishlists, and TiVo Suggestions. If both guides and all other search utilities were removed from the S3, almost every recording scenario could be covered by use of those three utilities, and most of the other recording features could be emulated reasonably well by them. TiVo has gutted the Title Search to unusability.
> 
> 'Not relevant to the point at hand. Whether the cause of the issue is directly related to the Premier or not, the owner is stuck because there are no other options for alleviating the issue on the Premier than those he has already tried. If it were an S3, he could potentially employ no fewer than 3 other options. Of course, there is no guarantee these would work, either, but when in a similar situation to his, on over a dozen files one or the other of these three has worked in every single case except one, when all the options available to the Premier except for PS transfer failed.
> 
> ...


Since the CC1 byte is enforced by the source TiVo, and in the case at hand, the source TiVo is a THD, your use of it as an example of the superiority of the TiVo 3 to the Premiere was bogus, particularly considering the fact you were at the time talking about unmodified TiVos.


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## brentil (Sep 9, 2011)

The true nail in the coffin for the S3 is the lack of CPU power. The Premiere has a more advanced CPU plus now the 2nd core to work with. The S3's CPU is just not capable of any more real advancements.

Everyone keeps throwing around the iPhone comparison as well. You have to also realize that even the original iPhone was still more powerful than the CPU in the S3 unit. You start talking about the 3S/4/4S and those are generations beyond it or even the Premiere. Products are supported for as long as they can continue to make innovations on it, otherwise it gets set aside to make room for new ones.

However as an S3 owner I would appreciate more bug fixes and corrections...


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## S3-2501 (Jun 2, 2007)

FWIW, the only thing that I could say has disappointed me about Tivo's support of the Series 3 platform was that they never managed to make a true 16:9 interface. I'm not talking about an HD interface, just one that fills a modern 16:9 TV without stretching/distorting things to fit. Considering the whole platform was designed to be used with modern HDTVs, it just seems odd that they never found a way to get the menus to be the correct ratio. If I'm not mistaken, the SD menus on the Premiere are also still 4:3, so there must be some technical limitation I'm not aware of that prevents Tivo from making SD menus that display properly at 16:9 ratio.


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## DougJohnson (Dec 12, 2006)

tootal2 said:


> I havent had any problem the the gc file since i moved my tivo to my bedroom. and my tivo suggestions started working again. I dont know why its working. Its cable only now with no antenna. I use to have a antenna on it.


I believe that some of the GC problems are transient.

I had the problem last October, put my OLED S3 on a timer for a month, and decided to see what happened if I took it off the timer on Thanksgiving.

It has been working flawlessly since. -- Doug


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

Holy cow, the S3 is slow enough with the "imrovements" Tivo made to it over the years, I shudder to think how poor the experience would get if they tried to shoehorn your wants into the box.

Nothing lasts forever. "Lifetime" does not mean your lifetime, but the products lifetime - and five years is more than reasonable. Buck up, get a new box or enjoy what you have. Sheesh....


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

S3-2501 said:


> If I'm not mistaken, the SD menus on the Premiere are also still 4:3, so there must be some technical limitation I'm not aware of that prevents Tivo from making SD menus that display properly at 16:9 ratio.


They didn't want to. They have been riding on the same 4:3 menus since the original Tivo in 2000. Their original menu system must really suck since they avoid making any changes to it like the plauge  Hard to believe for how simple it is. I've written more complicated screens in quickbasic...

Then for the premiere some genius got the "brilliant" insight to bet the farm on Flash. We know that worked so well for mobile devices that are very similar in processing to our Tivo's that Flash is standard on all mobile devices today (as others pointed out, most mobile devices are way more powerful than Tivo but let's not quibble - and yes, this sentence is extremely sarcastic).

Ugh. I love the concept of Tivo. I love that Tivo provides the best DVR experience. But Tivo's execution? I'm shocked they are still in business.

IP TV with channels on demand can't come fast enough. Then I don't need to screw with DVRs and scraping content - just watch what I want when I want it. Recording on a DVR, streaming, carrier pigeon - I'm not hung up on the delivery method, but the content. And their HAS to be a better way...


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

DocNo said:


> Holy cow, the S3 is slow enough with the "imrovements" Tivo made to it over the years, I shudder to think how poor the experience would get if they tried to shoehorn your wants into the box.
> 
> Nothing lasts forever. "Lifetime" does not mean your lifetime, but the products lifetime - and five years is more than reasonable. Buck up, get a new box or enjoy what you have. Sheesh....


And yet they still charge the same price for a sub on the 'unsupported' S3 that they do on the S4s....


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> And yet they still charge the same price for a sub on the 'unsupported' S3 that they do on the S4s....


Not to me, they don't. $9.95/mo for the THD and $12.99/mo for each of the 2 Premieres.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> And yet they still charge the same price for a sub on the 'unsupported' S3 that they do on the S4s....


It's not unsupported. They provide guide listings, plus any channel lineup changes are passed along. Unsupported would mean SOL on all these things.

This has been beat to death. What do you expect a tech company to provide for a 5+ year old product? These aren't cars, they're a relatively inexpensive electronic box. While I'm sure one can find a rare example or two of some company providing huge updates/upgrades on end-of-life equipment, the vast vast majority of electronic products are lucky to get a single upgrade during their life. Two?--consider yourself blessed.

Get over it.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

slowbiscuit said:


> And yet they still charge the same price for a sub on the 'unsupported' S3 that they do on the S4s....


Not completely true- you can push for $99 lifetime. An awesome deal.

As always, if you don't want to pay for it, then don't pay for it. The price supports the market.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

astrohip said:


> It's not unsupported. They provide guide listings, plus any channel lineup changes are passed along. Unsupported would mean SOL on all these things.
> 
> This has been beat to death. What do you expect a tech company to provide for a 5+ year old product? These aren't cars, they're a relatively inexpensive electronic box. While I'm sure one can find a rare example or two of some company providing huge updates/upgrades on end-of-life equipment, the vast vast majority of electronic products are lucky to get a single upgrade during their life. Two?--consider yourself blessed.
> 
> Get over it.


It's not the support itself, it's the cost for what you get - when I said 'unsupported' I meant for any new updates, and I get that they would not want to do them anymore at some point. And I know that you can still get cheaper subs if you're grandfathered in.

I don't care personally, I always get lifetime on new boxes. Just taking the other side here that wonders why they would have to pay the same amount for a new sub on an S3 that they'd pay on an S4.


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## ltxi (Feb 14, 2010)

Ahhhh.....don't understand all the fuss. My two Series three units are chugging away just fine. But then, I'm also one of those folk who still stick to SDUI on my Premieres.


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## bruceko (Oct 29, 2002)

I am also becoming very disenchanted with tivo I have been a customer since 1996.
My first pillips tivo had life time SERVICE. In the beginning it was life time service not life time of the box. By the time I upgraded it became lifetime of the box. they did do a one time life time upgrade.
Then I added a second box. Just after they changed the MSD monthly charge from $6.95 a mont to $9.95 a month. then they raised the monthly Msd price to $12.95 or annual of $99. I added a Premier at the annual price.
Now two of my units will not play most programming on the other tivo due to flagging.
If I want to upgrade now there is no annual price and my monthly service will be $12.95 a month or $399 for life time. No deals for a 16 year customer.
Also the program guides are showing incorrect program information on some channels
I also have directv and I only pay $5 per month per box and no cable card fees and no streaming problems


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

bruceko said:


> I have been a customer since 1996.


What? 3 years before the first one came out?!


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's not the support itself, it's the cost for what you get - when I said 'unsupported' I meant for any new updates, and I get that they would not want to do them anymore at some point. And I know that you can still get cheaper subs if you're grandfathered in.
> 
> I don't care personally, I always get lifetime on new boxes. Just taking the other side here that wonders why they would have to pay the same amount for a new sub on an S3 that they'd pay on an S4.


I think that if you look at the features added to the Series 2 TiVos you will agree that the Series 3 got very little improvements by comparison. As I recall shortly after the Series 3 was released TiVo introduced the HD TiVo which was essentially the same box, but without an OLED display. I haven't seen anything major on my THD other than the addition of Netflix since I bought it compared to :

HME Applications
Multi Room Viewing
TiVo to Go back (TTGB)
Amazon Unbox
Photos, Music, and More

If someone purchased a Series 3 or THD with those features in mind, and I know they did. I was here when that box came out and I remember many people talking about all the features that would be added after the S3 was released. Where are they? I can certainly see how someone could have expected more, but as I told people then. Don't buy the box for what it might become, buy it based on what it does now. I didn't buy the S3 as a result because I felt it wasn't a good value for the money.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

These are the only features I can think of that were added during the Series 3 era:


Add ext. hard drive for additional storage
Netflix
YouTube
Online scheduling/management via computer or mobile device
TiVo Search (beta)


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## bruceko (Oct 29, 2002)

laria said:


> What? 3 years before the first one came out?!


That's what my account information says on the tivo web site.
All tivo's info on my account seems to be screwed up. Can't look at my billing history, can't update my credit card information.
Talked to customer service yesterday and they can't see it either on the web based page. They gave me a reference # and turned it over to engineering but said i would NOT get a response back if it was resolved or not resolved. Great customer service.
I just adds to my disenchantment with Tivo.
I used to be one of their advocates.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

S3-2501 said:


> FWIW, the only thing that I could say has disappointed me about Tivo's support of the Series 3 platform was that they never managed to make a true 16:9 interface. I'm not talking about an HD interface, just one that fills a modern 16:9 TV without stretching/distorting things to fit. Considering the whole platform was designed to be used with modern HDTVs, it just seems odd that they never found a way to get the menus to be the correct ratio....


I am constantly befuddled as to why people see this as an "issue". It's such a minor thing...I couldn't care less about whether menus are stretched or not as long as they give me the information I want and need.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

steve614 said:


> These are the only features I can think of that were added during the Series 3 era:
> 
> 
> Add ext. hard drive for additional storage
> ...


Pandora (great addition, IMO).
Amazon Video
Live365
Rhapsody (since abandoned)
Blockbuster (ditto)
FrameChannel (worthless)


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## S3-2501 (Jun 2, 2007)

Bierboy said:


> I am constantly befuddled as to why people see this as an "issue". It's such a minor thing...I couldn't care less about whether menus are stretched or not as long as they give me the information I want and need.


 When I got my first Series 3 I was using a CRT rear-projection set. Anyone who's used one knows they had inherent geometry issues that often took some work to minimize. Since I had told the Tivo that it was connected to a 16:9 TV and the menus were output as an upscaled 16:9 HD signal, I originally thought the oval "please wait" clock and oval dots in the menus were an indication that something was wrong with my set's geometry settings.

Once I learned that the menus were actually stretched 4:3 content, it just seemed like such an odd technological loose end on such a modern product. Yes it gets the job done, but so would rendering the menus in 8-bit color, grayscale or even simple black and white. I wrongly assumed that that the menu aspect ratio was something they would eventually update to make the "Series 3 HD" fully matched for HDTVs, even if it was only done to ensure that their corporate logo wouldn't appear distorted on the menus of their flagship product.

It's not any big "issue," but it's a last bit of polish that I really thought they'd have implemented before the product line was discontinued.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Personally, I think it would have been totally idiotic to devote any resources to converting the SDUI to 16x9. I just wish they had made a better technology choice for the HDUI, one less CPU intensive than Flash. Then maybe there would have been some slight chance of implementing it on a Series3.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

steve614 said:


> These are the only features I can think of that were added during the Series 3 era:
> 
> 
> Add ext. hard drive for additional storage
> ...





slowbiscuit said:


> Pandora (great addition, IMO).
> Amazon Video
> Live365
> Rhapsody (since abandoned)
> ...


Expanded support for USB devices such as the TA and the slide remote.
Support for the TA itself
Boolean expressions in search criteria
MRV and TTG (originally introduced with the S2, but not available in the release version of the S3)

There are several others I can't remember in detail at the moment.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

DocNo said:


> Holy cow, the S3 is slow enough with the "imrovements" Tivo made to it over the years, I shudder to think how poor the experience would get if they tried to shoehorn your wants into the box.


Yes, but a more responsive system would have added more cost to a platform that already was prohibitively expensive for many people. The only thing I wish were faster is the networking, and note the networking on the THD is slower than the older S3. In great measure that is because the THD is less expensive. I certainly was not and am not willing to pay extra for most of the silliness I see people requesting.



DocNo said:


> Nothing lasts forever. "Lifetime" does not mean your lifetime, but the products lifetime - and five years is more than reasonable. Buck up, get a new box or enjoy what you have. Sheesh....


:up::up:


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

TiVo has met my expectations, I am happy with my TiVoHDs and hope they continue to run the same way for many more years. I look elsewhere for features unrelated to the TiVo's core function of a DVR and think it would be unrealistic to expect anything more than was promised when I bought them.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> I think that if you look at the features added to the Series 2 TiVos you will agree that the Series 3 got very little improvements by comparison.


I absolutely disagree. The S2 was a dog turd, which is why I never purchased one. I held on to my S1 until the S3 was released, and then in fairly short order I purchased three of them.



Stormspace said:


> As I recall shortly after the Series 3 was released TiVo introduced the HD TiVo which was essentially the same box, but without an OLED display.


'Not even close. If one opens the box, even a casual inspection by an inexperienced individual will make it obvious the two are completely different pieces of hardware. What is less apparent from inexperienced visual inspection is the THD hardware is slower and less expensive to build. Some things are a bit nicer, such as the ability to easily swap the internal and external drives simply by moving the drive cables. Doing this on the S3 (and indeed I have on one of my S3s) requires some extensive case modification and some kludgy plumbing. The HD also employs a 64 bit MFS file system, instead of the 32 bit system on the S3.



Stormspace said:


> I haven't seen anything major on my THD other than the addition of Netflix since I bought it compared to :


See above. Many of those were developed after the release of the THD. What's more, the release of the THD is not a good milestone. The THD was an inexpensive baby brother to the S3, not an advancement. It was still very much part of the Series III platform, and effectively everything developed for it was also developed for the S3.



Stormspace said:


> If someone purchased a Series 3 or THD with those features in mind, and I know they did. I was here when that box came out and I remember many people talking about all the features that would be added after the S3 was released.


With the exception of support for M-cards, I certainly did not. Indeed, my only frustration with the S3 was TiVo never developed support for the M-card, which they at least verbally promised, and that failure has cost me well over $400. That said, I certainly would not have declined to purchase my S3 TiVos had I known this to be the case... Let me amend that a bit. I certainly would not have declined to purchase my first S3. The purchase of the second S3 is a little more "iffy". I might possibly have waited a few months and bought a THD instead, had I known when the THD was going to be released, as well as knowing M-card support was not forthcoming. Perhaps not, however.



Stormspace said:


> I didn't buy the S3 as a result because I felt it wasn't a good value for the money.


I never bought an S2 because it was not a good value for the money. Slow as molasses, no HD support, no CableCard support, no Ethernet port... no thanks. I remember looking at the specs for the S2 when it was released. I could not believe it.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Chris Gerhard said:


> TiVo has met my expectations, I am happy with my TiVoHDs and hope they continue to run the same way for many more years.


Well, there are expectations and then there are desires. The Premier, for example, pretty much fully met my expectations when it was released, which is why I am unlikely ever to purchase one. One's expectations can be high or low. In the latter case, meeting or somewhat exceeding them is neither difficult nor desirable.



Chris Gerhard said:


> I look elsewhere for features unrelated to the TiVo's core function of a DVR and think it would be unrealistic to expect anything more than was promised when I bought them.


Well, see above concerning what was promised with the S3, but that aside, I have no desire to seek most features not related to the core function of a DVR, depending on what one deems the core functions to be.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> So I have WAY more invested in it than an iPhone (which I just paid $300 for).


You "paid" far more than $300 for you iPhone. A good chunk of your monthly stipend to your cell phone carrier of choice covered the remaining 60% or so of your iPhone's cost.

Tivo provided updates for a good four years for my S3 - and aside from adding new features (which the platform can't support, it can barely support the crap they added since it first launched) what do you want them to do? It's stable and does exactly what they promised. Some would say it even does more that when it was first released with a few things they added post release, I would say less since the UI performance took a major and negative hit (just like the S2 and S1's before  ) and I'm not that enamored with the new crap they added.

I was hoping the Premiere would be a big step forward, but UI performance is just as horrible as the previous generation Tivo's. I came into the Premiere after they had "upgraded" it a few times with new software releases so it may have been zippy when initially released; it's moot since there is no way to opt out of their upgrades and today the box is a sloggish quagmire the same as previous generation Tivo's.

I've learned my lesson - unless I SEE the S5 or whatever the next box is, and the see that the UI speed is greatly improved, I'm done - I'll tough it out until streaming negates the need for a DVR. At least with the premiere you can turn the HD menus off - that's probably going to be the next "improvement" - taking a page from Microsoft/Windows 8 and just forcing it whether you want it or not


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> I absolutely disagree. The S2 was a dog turd, which is why I never purchased one. I held on to my S1 until the S3 was released, and then in fairly short order I purchased three of them.


You missed out then. I was enjoying MRV and HME apps while you were in single device land with the S1. 



lrhorer said:


> 'Not even close. If one opens the box, even a casual inspection by an inexperienced individual will make it obvious the two are completely different pieces of hardware. What is less apparent from inexperienced visual inspection is the THD hardware is slower and less expensive to build. Some things are a bit nicer, such as the ability to easily swap the internal and external drives simply by moving the drive cables. Doing this on the S3 (and indeed I have on one of my S3s) requires some extensive case modification and some kludgy plumbing. The HD also employs a 64 bit MFS file system, instead of the 32 bit system on the S3.


Functionally they were the same except for the OLED screen. Whether one was slow or not is immaterial to the discussion. We are talking about features added to the S3 in comparison to the S2.



lrhorer said:


> I never bought an S2 because it was not a good value for the money. Slow as molasses, no HD support, no CableCard support, no Ethernet port... no thanks. I remember looking at the specs for the S2 when it was released. I could not believe it.


No DVR had HD support at the time the S2 was released, so what's your point? Same for Cablecard. As for Ethernet, the Dual Tuner S2 did have ethernet, but that was at the end of the run for the S2's.

I stand by what I said. The S3 got fewer features added than the S2. I also consider all the streaming functions (Netflix, Pandora, etc.) to be essentially the same thing. People who paid 800 dollars for the S3 were insane and with the cable companies working against the implementation of cable card ( either deliberately or by incompetence) purchase of a cable card DVR is a questionable thing entirely.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> .........and with the cable companies working against the implementation of cable card ( either deliberately or by incompetence) purchase of a cable card DVR is a questionable thing entirely.


+1 and don't forget the CableCARD's evil sidekick, the tuning adapter!

Unfortunately the only current way to get digital cable TV without using cable co equipment requires the CableCARD and frequently the TA. We need something like AllVid but the Cable cos are fighting that and, unless we make AllVid the ONLY way to deliver digital cable, they will sabotage it the same way they have done CableCARD (and TA).


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Well I guess I might as well add my 2 cents. I have an original Series 3 & a TiVo HD (along with a Premiere). 

Frist the Premiere has been out for 2.5 years and it's hardware appears to be showing signs of stress so the old Series 3 or TiVo HD hardware has to be significantly out dated. 

From my point of view as an owner of a Series 3 & TiVo HD, I don't want TiVo to tough the software. They both work great and do exactly what I want them too. 

From my point of view as a Premiere owner I think TiVo should spend time on adding features to the Premiere and not waist time and resources on past products. 

And if I were still a TiVo stock holder my point of view would certainly be that I want TiVo to be working on the future not wasting time in the past.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> Well I guess I might as well add my 2 cents. I have an original Series 3 & a TiVo HD (along with a Premiere).
> 
> Frist the Premiere has been out for 2.5 years and it's hardware appears to be showing signs of stress so the old Series 3 or TiVo HD hardware has to be significantly out dated.
> 
> ...


I agree with you completely. I was only stating that for the life of the S2 it got more updates than later versions. (S3 and THD). I haven't followed the later releases closely enough to say the same about them.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> And yet they still charge the same price for a sub on the 'unsupported' S3 that they do on the S4s....


Then sell it or upgrade. No one's twisting your arm. And others pointed out they are far from "unsupported"

Heck, partly because of this thread and partly because I literally ran into it while looking for something else, I plugged in my S1 from 2001. It fired right up, "dialed" into Tivo (TurboNet FTW), got guide data and is probably still merrily crunching away on it. What's sad is I think the UI is quicker than my S3 

The world would be a happier place if people would stop looking for ways to be miserable. The great thing about misery is if you go looking for it you'll probably find it!


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> I am constantly befuddled as to why people see this as an "issue". It's such a minor thing...I couldn't care less about whether menus are stretched or not as long as they give me the information I want and need.


I agree. I'm amused at people who obsess over hotel rooms too. Why? As long as it's clean, a comfortable temperature and quite who cares about the rest? When I travel I don't go to stay in the hotel room. Same thing with the menus. I just want them to do the job and then get the @#^!*% out of my way - which is why the damn HD menus are off on my premiere and the SD menus are on - and the box still wallows like pig stuck in mud


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## MeStinkBAD (Jul 16, 2003)

For the price I paid for my S3, I think it should be able to do my dishes as well as record two shows at once. So why hasn't TiVo fixed this? I want it to do my dishes! I hate doing the dishes! PLEASE TIVO FIX THIS PROBLEM!


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Stop trolling.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

MeStinkBAD said:


> For the price I paid for my S3, I think it should be able to do my dishes as well as record two shows at once. So why hasn't TiVo fixed this? I want it to do my dishes! I hate doing the dishes! PLEASE TIVO FIX THIS PROBLEM!


Hey, that dishes thing can wait until they finish the code for it mix drinks and give backrubs.


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## DougJohnson (Dec 12, 2006)

MeStinkBAD said:


> For the price I paid for my S3, I think it should be able to do my dishes as well as record two shows at once. So why hasn't TiVo fixed this? I want it to do my dishes! I hate doing the dishes! PLEASE TIVO FIX THIS PROBLEM!


You bought the wrong TiVo. It is the HR10-250 that does dishes.
-- Doug


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

DougJohnson said:


> You bought the wrong TiVo. It is the HR10-250 that does dishes.
> -- Doug


Never mind that, which one does backrubs?

Oh, and which one is it that lets you hack into NORAD?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

unitron said:


> ......Oh, and which one is it that lets you hack into NORAD?


For that you need to go to that "other" forum. I understand lrhorer says it's quite straightforward! 

I think they even have a thread on hacking into Iranian centrifuge controllers with your TiVo.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

dlfl said:


> For that you need to go to that "other" forum. I understand lrhorer says it's quite straightforward!
> 
> I think they even have a thread on hacking into Iranian centrifuge controllers with your TiVo.


But for that you have to get Omikron to install a hacked PROM.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

unitron said:


> But for that you have to get Omikron to install a hacked PROM.


You mean like this one?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

lpwcomp said:


> You mean like this one?


No, man, go with  the classics.


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## Blahman (Mar 4, 2002)

I'd just be happy if they put in some of the features they put on the Premiere/S4 that were originally demonstrated on the S3.

Perfect example the Free Space Indicator was supposed to be on the Series 3 but got pulled. Heck, you can still find images of the Free Space Indicator displayed right on the OLED of the first S3.

Attached one just for giggles.

That lack of support is disheartening. To remove a feature they could easily have left in and then use that feature as a selling point on a newer model is almost dishonest. I say almost because at least they removed it before they started selling the units. Still there is 0 reason for them not to have put it back in later updates.

EDIT: redacting the part about the image as I thought the image was related to the discussed Free Space Indicator but it is as S3-2501 states. My mistake on that account.


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## S3-2501 (Jun 2, 2007)

Blahman said:


> Perfect example the Free Space Indicator was supposed to be on the Series 3 but got pulled. Heck, you can still find images of the Free Space Indicator displayed right on the OLED of the first S3.
> 
> Attached one just for giggles.


 If you're referring to the gauge-like indicator to the right of the displayed show titles on the Tivo in the left side of the image, that's not a free space indicator. It's the output resolution indicator, displayed by pressing a physical button along the S3's front bezel (you can see the button below the indicator on the OLED in the image.)


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## Blahman (Mar 4, 2002)

S3-2501 said:


> If you're referring to the gauge-like indicator to the right of the displayed show titles on the Tivo in the left side of the image, that's not a free space indicator. It's the output resolution indicator, displayed by pressing a physical button along the S3's front bezel (you can see the button below the indicator on the OLED in the image.)


Ah, thanks. Did not even realize that. My bad.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

Be glad they are not putting out new 'updates' for your Series 3, my 3 Premieres were automatically updated last month, and now all of them have weird things happening, and all of the new features of no interest to me.


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