# Comcast Seattle to move analogs to digital "It's Craptastic!!"



## Zimm (Apr 8, 2008)

I thought everyone here would appreciate this:

http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/brierdudley/2008/12/08/some_faqs_on_comcast_digital_s.html

Comcast Seattle will be moving the bulk of the extended basic service teir digital and ENCRYPTING THEM!! They will force anyone currently on this teir of service to get their digital cable box. I ran the numbers for my folks in Redmond (they have 9 TV's total) and they are looking at an additional $14 per month! This assumes that Crapcast won't tack on their stupid "additional digital outlet" fee to each of the additional cable boxes.

God I hate Comcast!!


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I'd really love to see our local Comcast cable system go all-digital. The bandwidth that'd free up for more programming, especially HD, would be extraordinary.


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## Zimm (Apr 8, 2008)

Yeah, the extra bandwidth is nice. The problem there is that Comcast has proven that they do not know how to manage it properly. The current HD channels are so overcompressed that the macroblocking makes it almost worse then SD in some cases. I would be all for this if they:

a. did not encrypt the digital versions of these channels so we can tune them with QAM

b. releived some of the compression on the current HD channels

We all know why a. will never happen. ($$$)

We also know b. is next to impossible. They will simply add more overcompressed HD channels instead.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I'd still take an overcompressed HD channel to its SD counterpart... at least we're digital simulcast here, so we're not enduring analog channel quality. Granted, we really do have most HD channels that I care about already. There might be at most 2 or 3 left that I'd like to have added to the system.


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## cditty (Jun 8, 2003)

You could always write the FCC and complain. Telling them that Comcast is going to be profiting off of the digital upgrade and how it places additional charges on families when comcast in other cities aren't doing this.

IIRC, the FCC busted Comcast in one town for doing this. It was posted here I think, but I am too lazy to search for it right now.


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

It's not funny that all the Ads I've read or watched about the Digital Transition say that 'If you have Cable - You will not need a STB !'

I now have neighbors, Friends and Family that swear they will not need an STB and they are on Comcast. Last I heard, all their systems will be fully Digital by next Summer.


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

Did the ads say "if you subscribe to Comcast you won't need to do anything - provide you only watch local Seattle TV"?

I don't remember them this way either.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

Zimm said:


> a. did not encrypt the digital versions of these channels so we can tune them with QAM


A good idea except the Tivo cannot do it without a cable card because they refuse to allow us to assign guide data to those channels without hacks.


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## Zimm (Apr 8, 2008)

They certainly could not encrypt the channels. The channels that they are moving into digital are channels that those with extended basic are already supposed to receive as part of their service. If they broadcast those in the clear we would still be able to tune them. Yes, we would not be able to get guide data for them but that is a whole separate issue (and thread).

The bottom line here is that Comcast is intentional shutting out a large portion of their subscriber base and forcing them to use their own proprietary equiptment (at a charge over the first two) to recieve the same level of service they are getting now. What happens when they decide that they don't want to give out free cable boxes any more?

They are effectively trying to eliminate the extended basic tier to force everyone to move into their digital packages. This makes more money for them as they will have more people using the guide (and seeing the ads on it) as well as the "On Demand" features. I remember an article (can't seem to find it) that said something like 80&#37; of Comcast's subscribers were on the extended basic service, Comcast makes very little supplimental income off these subscribers so they have come up with a way to force them into a potentially more profitable category.


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## jcaudle (Aug 16, 2004)

I wish my provider (Cox) would get rid of analogs and go digital. The analog quality sucks and it takes bandwidth better used for more HD channels. Nine televisions? Sounds like overkill....of course some people have 6 or 7 tivos. I had 3 and canceled the 3rd. Couldn't find enough stuff to to record on it that wasn't duplicating stuff already on the other 2 boxes.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Zimm: You could take it to the Supreme Court, on ground that it violates the Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing extended basic cable television.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

The issue isn't with subscribers being able to see them without a CC. It's that non-subscribers will be able to see them too. The great thing about digital cable is channels can be enabled and disabled individually without having to send someone out to change a line filter. In practice, however, the greedy, grubby little b*****ds tend to screw things up royally everytime someone walks past the equipment requiring a tech to come out and replace your CC (at $49.95 per hour.)

I've always been amazed at how lame and backwards cable systems still are in today's world. It's like someone has to go in the back room and move wires around to change anything. And I _know_ it's as simple as clicking a mouse. (I've run Cisco's CMTS software once -- just to see if sucks as badly as other cisco management apps -- it's on par, btw.) With DTV (and DISH), you can go to a web page to turn channels on and off nearly instantly without involving any human at all (beyond me.) And it's been like that for over a decade. (In fact, it works so well, DTV had to change the system because too many people were turning on HBO right before Soprano's and turning back off at the end -- pro-rated HBO by the hour which brings it from $12 per month to $0.07 per month.)


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

I would like to point out one thing.

HOW the cable companies get their money is really a Moot Point.

Example... Does it make a difference *IF*:

1. I charge $60 for basic cable & provide 5 free cable boxes....

or..

2. They charge $20 for basic cable and then charge $10 for every box over the first one.
(5 boxes on this system would still cost $60)

Option 1 they get $60 from everyone. Option 2 They only get $60 for those who need that many boxes!

People who have 9 TV's are *NOT* the norm and should have to pay extra. You don't want to pay extra to have 9 TV's then don't buy extra TV's! Geez.

TWC in Dallas/Fort Worth will be dropping their ANALOG cable by the end of 2010. However they will provide 3 (THREE) cable converter boxes at *NO *charge. You want extra boxes they will cost $5 a peice. The First DVR will cost $14.95. Each addictional DVR will cost $9. Other than the cost of the boxes, there won't be any "Outlet" fee. You will just be required to have a box &/or DVR to get cable service.

TGC

However... if you really think about it. If you have TiVo's you won't have to pay anything extra to the Cable Company. Although... You do have to pay PER TiVo to TiVo... Example... Month to month for TiVo is $13 for first Tivo... $7 for each additional TiVo up to a total of 5. *So even TiVo has LIMITS!*


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## Slime (Apr 6, 2003)

Comcast Seattle are offering up to 5 free digital to analog 'free' conversion boxes per household - they are small cable boxes with only coax output, so you tune your current TV into channel 3 or 4 and then use the new digital free box to get all your channels between 30 and 99.

I talked to a Comcast service tech who was extremely helpful and even went and got one of the boxes so she could tell me what outputs it had. Not a great solution, but it is free.


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## Zimm (Apr 8, 2008)

That is interesting. The article I posted in the OP says that they are only going to provide the first 2 converters for free and the rest will be $1.99. If they are actually going to provide 5 free that would not be too bad.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

DTAs aren't going to help you with HD TiVos. They're rudimentary cable STBs with SD analog outputs and no guide.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I think folks are confusing DTAs with TAs.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Zimm said:


> Yeah, the extra bandwidth is nice. The problem there is that Comcast has proven that they do not know how to manage it properly. The current HD channels are so overcompressed that the macroblocking makes it almost worse then SD in some cases. I would be all for this if they:
> 
> a. did not encrypt the digital versions of these channels so we can tune them with QAM
> 
> ...


A and B are both going to happen, IMO. For A, they're going to put expanded basic SD channels in the clear (but not the HD versions, apparently). The DTA's they're providing do not have encryption enabled because they have to petition the FCC for a waiver on them, I think. So they're just doing a clear QAM to analog conversion, and a DTV with a QAM tuner should get the same channels without a box.
For B, they'll have plenty of bandwidth to divvy up HD channels after the migration.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

bicker said:


> I think folks are confusing DTAs with TAs.


No one is talking about tuning adapters in this thread, the discussion is about DTA's and STB's as part of Comcast's digital migration. Comcast is not going the SDV route, which is good for us.


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## oversight (Jan 7, 2008)

Good grief, get over it already. The world has been in a digital transition for a couple of decades now, it's long past time to accept the fact that even the archaic cable companies are going to do the same, just as Satellite and fios have done. Personally, I'm pleased b/c I want that bandwidth opened up for new HD content.


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

mikeyts said:


> DTAs aren't going to help you with HD TiVos. They're rudimentary cable STBs with SD analog outputs and no guide.


HD TiVos have QAM tuners and can use cable cards, so they are not affected by this at all.

My concerns are

1) My wife uses a Series I Tivo in her office, which she uses to record or watch live TV (in the buffer with pause, FF, etc) on channels 2-99. Will the IR dongle be able to change channels on the DTA?

2) If there is only a coaxal output that puts the selected channel on 3 or 4, is there a noticeble picture qaulity penalty over the straight cable feed going into a Tivo?

My wife called Comcast this morning about an outage and also discussed the digital conversion. They are sending us two DTAs now, and are not charging extra for them. I'll report back how well I think they work.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> No one is talking about tuning adapters in this thread


I believe that was Mike's point (which I was echoing), or actually, more specifically, no one *should* be talking about tuning adapters in this thread.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

Zimm said:


> I remember an article (can't seem to find it) that said something like 80% of Comcast's subscribers were on the extended basic service.


Not here:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/brierdudley/2008480563_brier08.html

Comcast's regional spokesman is Steve Kipp. Tony Perez is Seattle's director of cable communications.

_'Kipp said only about 10 percent of Comcast's Washington customers have expanded basic service.

But Perez said the percentage is higher in Seattle  about 50,000 of 166,000 homes.'_


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## Mikef5 (Jun 4, 2007)

fallingwater said:


> Not here:
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/brierdudley/2008480563_brier08.html
> 
> Comcast's regional spokesman is Steve Kipp. Tony Perez is Seattle's director of cable communications.
> ...


This link is more up to date on the subject and from what I've been able to find out is true for Comcast as well......Here's the link.... http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/12/1...e-to-freeze-analog-to-digital-moves-until-af/


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## rogercy (Apr 22, 2003)

Comcast is trying to align itself with the forward thinking clients and not with the lowest paying clients, as a TiVo user you should understand and applaud that. TiVo is and continues to be a leading edge product.

A company has to cater to the higher end clients and not make the marketing decisions only for the the lowest paying clients, or they will fail, there are two very good examples of that this Christmas. Walmart is making efforts to sell to upstream clients with Ads touting "The best Electronics at the best prices". The second example is K Mart advertising itself as a great Jewelry store, whether or not these will work is yet to be determined

TiVo itself went through this when it moved from only making Analog TiVo's to making Digital units that work with DirectV and Cable.

Comcast is giving at no cost, one digital box and two DTAs to each extended Basic client, and then give them additional DTAs at $1.99 each.

They are also leaving the limited Basic (channels 2-30) alone for those clients that refuse to have a digital box.

As for myself, I have one TV in my house that I will get a DTA for, but in reality, whenever I am traveling I really miss not having my TiVo or at least a guide on the TV in the hotel.

On the other side of the story, in the last two weeks, Comcast in the Seattle Market (in systems that can support it) *added up to 30 new HD Channels and doubled the speed of the basic High Speed internet, both at no additional cost. *There now is the ability to get speeds of up to 50 Mbps down, this is of course at additional cost if this type of speed is important to you.

*I call this a very positive step forward.*

I wish all of the companies I do business with came out one day and told me for the same price I am paying, that they were doubling the speed of one product and giving me 30 additional whatever of another product. I call that Service!

Roger (TiVo since December 2000)


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## Combat Medic (Sep 6, 2001)

rogercy said:


> Comcast is trying to align itself with the forward thinking clients and not with the lowest paying clients, as a TiVo user you should understand and applaud that. TiVo is and continues to be a leading edge product.
> 
> A company has to cater to the higher end clients and not make the marketing decisions only for the the lowest paying clients, or they will fail, there are two very good examples of that this Christmas. Walmart is making efforts to sell to upstream clients with Ads touting "The best Electronics at the best prices". The second example is K Mart advertising itself as a great Jewelry store, whether or not these will work is yet to be determined
> 
> ...


All of that is great, but don't take away from us while you are at it. The cable companies that are setting DRM on all of these channels while their own DVRs completely ignore the flag are not playing on a level field.

-Mike


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> For B, they'll have plenty of bandwidth to divvy up HD channels after the migration.


Let's talk turkey, here. Saying, "Plenty of bandwidth" doesn't really express the magnitude of the situation. Let's assume the franchise in question has 70 analog channels - pretty much on the low end of average for most municipalities. If they convert to fully packed HD linear QAMs with normal industry rate-shaping, that relates to 70 SD channels and 140 high quality HD channels. Every analog channel could be moved to a digital SD channel and still have room for an additional 140 new HD channels. Now, I don't think they have anywhere nearly 210 over-limited HD channels right now, but even if they did, they could take all 70 of the over-commited QAM, move 1 HD channel off each one, restore all 210 HD channels to industry norm rate-shaping, and *still* have room for 70 new HD channels.

That's just the beginning, however. I don't know how big Seattle's CATV system is, but I'm guessing they have at least 100 nodes - someone correct me if I am wrong. If so, they could take 30 of the 70 new QAMs and convert them to SDV instead of linear QAMs, placing the least watched of the 70 channels on the SDV QAMs. The remaining timeslots will be on the order of 6000 simultaneous HD streams and 2500 or so SD simultaneous streams. Given the statistical utilization of the streams in question, that amounts to an additional 20,000 to 50,000 channels - not that Comcast could actually come up with 50,000 additional channels, or even 20,000, at this point in time, but this is precisely what the potential gain is. So let's see... well over 6000 additional high quality HD channels and more than 3000 digital quality SD channels. What was the OP's objection again? Of course, Comcast may have a long way to go to come anywhere near fulfilling the potential of such a move, and quality issues must be addressed as a separate issue, but nonetheless, the gripe is pretty piddling in view of the potential benefits.

All that said, it is up to the consumer to hold Comcast liable for delivering on the promise.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Combat Medic said:


> All of that is great, but don't take away from us while you are at it.


For some things, there is a limited resource that is allocated between two interests, let's say "legacy" and "progress". In such cases, progress implies taking away from legacy.



Combat Medic said:


> The cable companies that are setting DRM on all of these channels while their own DVRs completely ignore the flag are not playing on a level field.


Comcast doesn't do that _here_. I suspect wherever they put (specifically) "DRM" on "all" of some set of channels, it is a mistake. It just needs to be fixed. An error is not a reflection of deliberate policy.


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## Combat Medic (Sep 6, 2001)

bicker said:


> Comcast doesn't do that _here_. I suspect wherever they put (specifically) "DRM" on "all" of some set of channels, it is a mistake. It just needs to be fixed. An error is not a reflection of deliberate policy.


I know that I shouldn't attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. But when it is brought to the attention of people at the very top, the middle, and the bottom without correction it can only be malice.

-Mike


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Combat Medic said:


> All of that is great, but don't take away from us while you are at it. The cable companies that are setting DRM on all of these channels while their own DVRs completely ignore the flag are not playing on a level field.


In what way do their DVRs "ignore" the DRM flags? The highest level of DRM they're allowed to set on anything other than Pay-Per-View (and Pay-Per-Viewing-Period VOD) is Copy One Generation and the only problem that TiVo has with that is in doing TTG and MRV, since it's not allowed to make copies of the recording. The licensing for the DRM would allow TiVo to do those things, as long as they did it over an approved secure connection, encrypted and marked the copy Copy One Gen and deleted the original after the copy was done. They could also do streaming for MRV, but their MRV is based on copying the recording into a permanent file.

As I recall, someone in one of the threads that I monitor claimed to have complained to Comcast about their excessive use of Copy One Gen protection (which was actually allowed by FCC regs) and Comcast supposedly enacted a corporate policy against protecting content unless requested by their content provider.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> In what way do their DVRs "ignore" the DRM flags?





> The licensing for the DRM would allow TiVo to do those things, as long as they did it over an approved secure connection, encrypted and marked the copy Copy One Gen and deleted the original after the copy was done. They could also do streaming for MRV, but their MRV is based on copying the recording into a permanent file.


Many cable company DVRs let you copy programs marked "copy one generation" over firewire from the DVR to (for instance) a D-VHS recorder, WITHOUT deleting the original copy. (So you can actually make multiple copies.) The new copy is marked "no more copies." Basically, they don't count the copy on the DVR as the "one generation" - they consider copying from the DVR to the D-VHS as the "one generation" that is allowed.

If TiVo was able to use this interpretation, they could allow us to MRV "copy one generation" programs from one TiVo to another. We just wouldn't be able to then MRV the program from the TiVo we copied it to onto a third TiVo. (But you could still MRV the same program from the original TiVo directly to the third TiVo.)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Combat Medic said:


> I know that I shouldn't attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. But when it is brought to the attention of people at the very top, the middle, and the bottom without correction it can only be malice.


I suspect you simply need to try again.


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## dylanemcgregor (Jan 31, 2003)

I no longer have cable, but if I did I'd definitely consider this a step backward (although one I know has been coming for a long time). It is probably a matter of opinion, but I find the quality of digital channels to generally be far worse than analog ones on the same system. The digital channels I've seen all suffer from at least occasional digital artifacting which I find to be _really_ annoying. The analog stations might occasionally get a little snowy, but that is far preferable to me at least than the digital issues.

Then of course there is all the extra hassle and hardware needed. It seems that the days of having a $30 TV for use in the kitchen or bedroom is pretty much a thing of the past.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Brainiac 5 said:


> Many cable company DVRs let you copy programs marked "copy one generation" over firewire from the DVR to (for instance) a D-VHS recorder, WITHOUT deleting the original copy. (So you can actually make multiple copies.) The new copy is marked "no more copies." Basically, they don't count the copy on the DVR as the "one generation" - they consider copying from the DVR to the D-VHS as the "one generation" that is allowed.
> 
> If TiVo was able to use this interpretation, they could allow us to MRV "copy one generation" programs from one TiVo to another.


Do any of these "many" DVRs use CableCARDs? (I hadn't heard of any, and very few cable DVRs have actual working firewire--AFAIK, none in use by either of the cable companies in San Diego, despite apparent FCC requirements to the contrary ). Any model that takes decrypted data marked Copy One Gen from a CableCARD and makes further copies wof it are in direct violation of DFAST licensing. If they're models that don't use CableCARDs, the choice of placing copy protection flags on DTCP or not is up to the cable providers.

The real solution to TiVo's MRV is to use some form of streaming, which they could protect with the equivalent of Copy No More; they could buffer that however they needed to (in memory, on HDD, etc), so long as no permanent copy remained after the user stopped playing it. (The 90 minute total lifetime restriction of Copy Never buffering might apply).


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> Do any of these "many" DVRs use CableCARDs? (I hadn't heard of any, and very few cable DVRs have actual working firewire--AFAIK, none in use by either of the cable companies in San Diego, despite apparent FCC requirements to the contrary ).


I wouldn't be surprised if there are no such models that use CableCARD. All the ones I know of are older models from before the integration ban.



> If they're models that don't use CableCARDs, the choice of placing copy protection flags on DTCP or not is up to the cable providers.


That may be, but if so, it means exactly what Combat Medic said, that the cable DVRs (at least the old ones) don't have to respect the copy protection flags.



> The real solution to TiVo's MRV is to use some form of streaming, which they could protect with the equivalent of Copy No More; they could buffer that however they needed to (in memory, on HDD, etc), so long as no permanent copy remained after the user stopped playing it. (The 90 minute total lifetime restriction of Copy Never buffering might apply).


Yes, that would be great, it would sidestep a lot of problems.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Brainiac 5 said:


> That may be, but if so, it means exactly what Combat Medic said, that the cable DVRs (at least the old ones) don't have to respect the copy protection flags.


Maybe, but it's not as though it's a broad injustice. Some few older legacy DVRs are outputting Copy One Gen stuff from 1394/DTCP marked Copy One Gen. No BFD.


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## Combat Medic (Sep 6, 2001)

mikeyts said:


> Maybe, but it's not as though it's a broad injustice. Some few older legacy DVRs are outputting Copy One Gen stuff from 1394/DTCP marked Copy One Gen. No BFD.


You are right. We should feel honored that these cable companies are willing to take our money.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> Maybe, but it's not as though it's a broad injustice. Some few older legacy DVRs are outputting Copy One Gen stuff from 1394/DTCP marked Copy One Gen. No BFD.


It's probably true that there aren't too many people with these DVRs out there, mainly because it was, and is, so much trouble to get a box from a cable company that even _has_ an active firewire port. However, it should be noted that before the advent of the TiVo S3 and things like it, these cable boxes were the only things that had to recognize these flags and do anything about them. As far as I know all Motorola boxes worked this way; so another way to consider it is that of the devices that cable companies have distributed up to this point that need to respect the flags, a very large percentage of them interpreted the flags in this more "liberal" way.

As for new boxes, my guess is that they probably don't support firewire at all, since cable companies have learned that they can get away with that. If that's the case, then "copy one generation" vs. "copy freely" have no meaning to such boxes, since they don't offer any way to copy programs off of them anyway.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Brainiac 5 said:


> It's probably true that there aren't too many people with these DVRs out there, mainly because it was, and is, so much trouble to get a box from a cable company that even _has_ an active firewire port. However, it should be noted that before the advent of the TiVo S3 and things like it, these cable boxes were the only things that had to recognize these flags and do anything about them. As far as I know all Motorola boxes worked this way; so another way to consider it is that of the devices that cable companies have distributed up to this point that need to respect the flags, a very large percentage of them interpreted the flags in this more "liberal" way.
> 
> As for new boxes, my guess is that they probably don't support firewire at all, since cable companies have learned that they can get away with that. If that's the case, then "copy one generation" vs. "copy freely" have no meaning to such boxes, since they don't offer any way to copy programs off of them anyway.


AFAIK, none of these boxes had any legal or contractual requirement to "respect the flags". In most cable systems, they get inserted in the content by the cable providers themselves. TiVo's requirement stems from being signatory the DFAST licensing agreement, as is necessary to implement a CableCARD interface, so it'd also be a requirement on the new CableCARD-compliant boxes that the cable providers have been forced to move to as of 1 July 2007 by FCC fiat. As those legacy boxes that are capable of copying stuff off die and are replaced, the small number of boxes that can do it will gradually disappear.

At least one service provider is using an IPG with an ability to copy stuff off their DVRs, but they're not standard cable--AT&T U-verse DVRs can do it. I don't know what they're use of embedded copy protection flags is.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> AFAIK, none of these boxes had any legal or contractual requirement to "respect the flags".


I suppose that's true; the FCC rules were about what they _couldn't_ restrict using copy protection flags.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Brainiac 5 said:


> I suppose that's true; the FCC rules were about what they _couldn't_ restrict using copy protection flags.


It's not the flags in the content that impose the restrictions per se; it's the licensing for using the secure transports. In the case of the legacy leased STBs, the content flows into them protected by some proprietary system (Cisco/SA's PowerKey, Motorola's DigiCipher, etc) and the box directly decrypts it. In the case of TiVo and the newer CableCARD-using leased cable STBs, stuff flows in protected by the same proprietary authentication-and-encryption systems, but it then flows into the CableCARD which decrypts the proprietary stuff and re-encrypts it with the DFAST standard for transport back into the STB. To use DFAST, you have to sign a license which stipulates that your device will obey any copy protection flags on content received via DFAST; licensing for DTCP (the authentication-and-encryption system for AV Firewire and a few other transports like USB and IP) has the same sort of stipulations. I'd expect that licensing to use the proprietary stuff is totally commercial and has no such restrictions. What does Cisco/SA or Moto care what their licensees do with content once they decrypt it?


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## StriderWA (Aug 13, 2007)

Dancar said:


> Did the ads say "if you subscribe to Comcast you won't need to do anything - provide you only watch local Seattle TV"?
> 
> I don't remember them this way either.


They have been saying 'If you are currently a Comcast customer, you already are set for the DTV conversion'

According to the customer service rep I spoke with today, each household is entitled to two 'DTA' boxes which allow a standard def/non-ATSC tuner TV to receive channels above 30something, and I *THINK* a more advanced cable box and a digital one for the cost of only one digital box(the latter being the only ones capable of on demand). I'll assume my m-card counts as my 'cable box' fee, not sure what else I'm entitled to for free, but I'm going to swing by the comcast retail store in Lynnwood to check tomorrow.


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## StriderWA (Aug 13, 2007)

Zimm said:


> They certainly could not encrypt the channels. The channels that they are moving into digital are channels that those with extended basic are already supposed to receive as part of their service. If they broadcast those in the clear we would still be able to tune them. Yes, we would not be able to get guide data for them but that is a whole separate issue (and thread).
> 
> The bottom line here is that Comcast is intentional shutting out a large portion of their subscriber base and forcing them to use their own proprietary equiptment (at a charge over the first two) to recieve the same level of service they are getting now. What happens when they decide that they don't want to give out free cable boxes any more?
> 
> They are effectively trying to eliminate the extended basic tier to force everyone to move into their digital packages. This makes more money for them as they will have more people using the guide (and seeing the ads on it) as well as the "On Demand" features. I remember an article (can't seem to find it) that said something like 80% of Comcast's subscribers were on the extended basic service, Comcast makes very little supplimental income off these subscribers so they have come up with a way to force them into a potentially more profitable category.


I believe there WAS another story in the Seattle P-I/Seattle Times that indicated that the FCC was looking into Comcast (and 11 other cable companies) 'pricing' to see if they were indeed adjusting their packages to force people into digital tiers by moving channels that were previously 'standard' into the 'digital' tier. Search the P-I web site for the story titled 'FCC opens inquiry into pricing policies at cable tv providers' dated 11/4/08 (in case I can't post links)

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/386398_cablepricing05.html


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## mblloyd (Feb 11, 2007)

On January 6, 2009, I was told on the phone by Comcast that this switch in 
Seattle could take place as early as February 17, but they won't provide a specific date.


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## TiVo Steve (Nov 8, 2005)

mikeyts said:


> DTAs aren't going to help you with HD TiVos. They're rudimentary cable STBs with SD analog outputs and no guide.


A side note... I use both a TiVo HD (with a MS CC) for my "encrypted" HD content, and a Vista Media Center (HDHomerun) for my local HD (clear QAM).

Comcast just added (for now) the digital channels (that used to be 30-70 analog) to clear QAM digital! So on my VMC computer, I can record the SD versions of channels I could not otherwise record. How long will they remain "unencrypted"? Who knows... but a thread over at the AVS forum gets into this discussion.
Here is a quote:
"Comcast intends to encrypt them, but first they need a waiver from the FCC to enable encryption on these cheap little DTA devices - the ones they're giving people to make up for these analog channels going away. These are ultra-cheap cable boxes that don't have separate cablecards (as required by current FCC regulations). Until they get this exemption, expect these channels to remain in the clear."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=253006&page=430

So for now, I'm enjoying the extra channels on my HTPC!


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## pdxsam (Mar 3, 2002)

mblloyd said:


> On January 6, 2009, I was told on the phone by Comcast that this switch in
> Seattle could take place as early as February 17, but they won't provide a specific date.


I would doubt Feb 17th would be the timeframe they would make the switch complete. It'll be complicated enough with the analog shutdown to confuse people with this also.

Comcast has done some dumb things in the past. I've got to think they're smarter with this switchover than they would normally be.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

If they haven't announced a date, already, the date will be after *March* 17.


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## michael new (Jan 13, 2006)

so wait I,m confused.. I have Comcast HD on one tv and Comcast basic on 4 others and even though the add says Im good togo I still need a converter box now? If so that sucks my inlaws have a box and I could never get Tivo to work right.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

michael new said:


> so wait I,m confused.. I have Comcast HD on one tv and Comcast basic on 4 others and even though the add says Im good togo I still need a converter box now?


That is probably *not* the case, at least not in the blanket manner in which you stated it. You still probably can tune in all the local broadcast channels on your additional televisions. There might be a few other limited basic channels that you would need a box for, but not many. Expanded basic is another story. Comcast has already stopped offering analog expanded basic service to new customers, in some areas. If you have expanded basic service, eventually you do need a box on every television, *just like every other competitor in most areas already require*. In Seattle, apparently this affects what was channels 39 through 74.

See: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15444242#post15444242

Note that there are a lot of discussions, going on here and on avsforum, where posters are complaining that this conversion that you're complaining about *isn't happening quick enough* for them. They care more about the additional services that Comcast will be able to provide them if they go all-digital. So what we see Comcast doing is balancing your desires and their desires, heading in the all-digital direction, but very slowly.


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## michael new (Jan 13, 2006)

I thought that Tivo had a built in decoder so nothing would change. Boy am I in trouble Ive been telling everyone I knew if you have cable your ok. So for each tv in the house I now need a cable box to support channels 13+?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TiVo does not have any built in decryption. TiVo S3 and TiVo HD DVRs can support CableCARD -- the CableCARD provides decryption service.

I updated my earlier message in response to some Seattle-specific research. This only applies to channels 30-74. Channel 13-29 and 75-99 are unaffected.


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## michael new (Jan 13, 2006)

what does this mean (from Tivo.com)

WARNING: Your cable provider may offer you a Digital Adapter (DTA). Please request a digital cable box instead. Digital Adapters are not currently supported for use with TiVo DVRs.


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

michael new said:


> what does this mean (from Tivo.com)
> 
> WARNING: Your cable provider may offer you a Digital Adapter (DTA). Please request a digital cable box instead. Digital Adapters are not currently supported for use with TiVo DVRs.


Can you please give the link where you saw that?


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## michael new (Jan 13, 2006)

http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport..._the_Series1_or_Series2_Single_Tuner_DVR.html


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## michael new (Jan 13, 2006)

Im still confused, I went ahead and called Comcast today and the rep I spoke to said I would be fine atleast untul summer, which I guess is when they will be full digital then I would need a converter box?


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## StriderWA (Aug 13, 2007)

michael new said:


> what does this mean (from Tivo.com)
> 
> WARNING: Your cable provider may offer you a Digital Adapter (DTA). Please request a digital cable box instead. Digital Adapters are not currently supported for use with TiVo DVRs.


I think this is in relation to using a TiVo series 2 with a digital cable box either via IR blaster or serial cable. TiVo HDs require cablecards which is, in essence, a digital cable box.

The DTAs are to receive channels above 30something on an old analog TV that is currently connected directly into the wall using the built in NTSC (analog) tuner. Those will still continue after the switchover, but only for the first 30 channels, which are analog from comcast. You WILL need a DTV converter for any antenna connected analog TV, though.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

michael new said:


> what does this mean (from Tivo.com)
> 
> WARNING: Your cable provider may offer you a Digital Adapter (DTA). Please request a digital cable box instead. Digital Adapters are not currently supported for use with TiVo DVRs.


No matter how you twist this around, it doesn't make any sense. With this pronouncement, TiVo is pissing on everyone with a Series2 TiVo and only lifeline- or extended-basic service on a system that's going fully digital. These people are not paying for a box today, and the only boxes that they're going to get for free are DTAs.

There's no possible difference between supporting a DTA and a full-blown digital cable STB--DTAs are just rudimentary digital cable STBs. No matter how many or few analog outputs there are on a DTA (coax, S-video or composite), TiVo S2 can handle whatever's there, and TiVo IR blaster could handle sending remote codes to it.


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## michael new (Jan 13, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> No one is talking about tuning adapters in this thread, the discussion is about DTA's and STB's as part of Comcast's digital migration. Comcast is not going the SDV route, which is good for us.


What is SDV?

All I want to know is the 3 tv's I have now with basic extendded no cable box and Tivo, what will happen with them? If Everett area goes full digital will I need a converter?


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

michael new said:


> What is SDV?


SDV is an acronym for "Switched Digital Video"--you can see the forum's SDV FAQ for more information.

It seems doubtful that all-digital systems are going to put lifeline-basic/extended-basic channels in SDV--being able to support that would complicate the design of DTAs and increase the cost.


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## michael new (Jan 13, 2006)

so I spoke to another Comcast rep this evening and was told this:

By the end of the year (Seattle Area) will be all digital and any Tivo user will be required to have an DCT box for an additional 5.10 a month to use your Tivo and yes your dual tuners will be absolute. Any tv not connected with a Tivo will require 2free per household DTA boxes to view local and extended digital cable.

That SUCK'S

I will be investigating some more options, maybe a third party converter, Id rather pay 40$ once than 5.10 a month. If anyone has recommedations on a cheap converter let me know.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

michael new said:


> so I spoke to another Comcast rep this evening and was told this:
> 
> By the end of the year (Seattle Area) will be all digital and any Tivo user will be required to have an DCT box for an additional 5.10 a month to use your Tivo and yes your dual tuners will be absolute. Any tv not connected with a Tivo will require 2free per household DTA boxes to view local and extended digital cable.
> 
> ...


This really only applies to the TiVo Series 1/2/2DT units. Get a TiVo HD, HD XL or Series 3 unit and CableCARDs from your cable company and you'll be good to go.

(And this is the Series 3/HD/HD XL forum, so complaining about Series 1/2/2DT limitations really is off topic here.)


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## markus2 (Sep 16, 2003)

rogercy said:


> On the other side of the story, in the last two weeks, Comcast in the Seattle Market (in systems that can support it) *added up to 30 new HD Channels and doubled the speed of the basic High Speed internet, both at no additional cost. *There now is the ability to get speeds of up to 50 Mbps down, this is of course at additional cost if this type of speed is important to you.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

markus2 said:


> Is anyone else having guide issues with these new channels? I manually entered the new channels, and the guide identifies the channel correctly, for instance it's calling channel 517 EncoreHD. The channel plays just fine, but under program information in the guide: it says Not available. No show names at all on any of these 30 new channels. All the others channels are fine. And the video and audio plays just fine on these channels, I just can't see titles of what's playing! I've manually connected to the Tivo service... doen't fix it.
> Tivo claims it's Comcast's problem. Comcast says it could possibly be a bad cable card, although it's working fine for all the other channels.
> 
> Is it that Tribune Media has not been informed by Comcast of the channel lineup change? If so, then there should be many others with this same problem.


If you can tune the channel, the CableCARD is working.

Guide data comes from TiVo; if you have no guide data for a channel you can tune and see listed in the guide, it's just a guide data issue and TiVo has to deal with it.


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## michael new (Jan 13, 2006)

dswallow said:


> This really only applies to the TiVo Series 1/2/2DT units. Get a TiVo HD, HD XL or Series 3 unit and CableCARDs from your cable company and you'll be good to go.
> 
> (And this is the Series 3/HD/HD XL forum, so complaining about Series 1/2/2DT limitations really is off topic here.)


I releaze this but I cant afford to replace 4 3 Tivos to upgrade to a HDTivo.
Sorry I didnt relize this was the S# thread I was just going along with the rest of the posts.


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## Elttaes (Jan 7, 2009)

I too spoke with a rep today after they knocked on my door to tell me about my "gift from comcast, a free upgrade!". 

The rep was fairly nice. He stated that if I so chose I didnt had until 2010 and there would be no issues with my extended basic cable till then. Im dubious.

I also brought up my Series2DT, he relayed it would be no issue and all I would need to do is feed it signal from the STB and tell it to tune for digital. He said the lower analogs would not be affected. Same remote and all. Am I being mislead?

I had a cablecard ordered just in case....really cant afford a new Tivo right now.


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## crazi4tv (Nov 1, 2008)

markus2 said:


> rogercy said:
> 
> 
> > On the other side of the story, in the last two weeks, Comcast in the Seattle Market (in systems that can support it) *added up to 30 new HD Channels and doubled the speed of the basic High Speed internet, both at no additional cost. *There now is the ability to get speeds of up to 50 Mbps down, this is of course at additional cost if this type of speed is important to you.
> ...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Elttaes said:


> The rep was fairly nice. He stated that if I so chose I didnt had until 2010 and there would be no issues with my extended basic cable till then. Im dubious.


If they won't put it in writing, then don't count on it -- in either direction.



Elttaes said:


> I also brought up my Series2DT...


Don't. 

Again, this is the TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs forum. If you have any issues that pertain to older units, they go elsewhere. Thanks!


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## markus2 (Sep 16, 2003)

crazi4tv said:


> markus2 said:
> 
> 
> > Per TiVo: "You see video, but the channel banner says "To be announced"
> ...


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

Isn't there a page on TiVo.com where you can report lineup changes that the cable companies haven't told them about so they can update the guide?


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

mikeyts said:


> There's no possible difference between supporting a DTA and a full-blown digital cable STB--DTAs are just rudimentary digital cable STBs. No matter how many or few analog outputs there are on a DTA (coax, S-video or composite), TiVo S2 can handle whatever's there, and TiVo IR blaster could handle sending remote codes to it.


That assumes your TiVo knows the codes to use. Can the software in older TiVos be udated with codes for new devices?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Dancar said:


> Isn't there a page on TiVo.com where you can report lineup changes that the cable companies haven't told them about so they can update the guide?


The quick URL is http://www.tivo.com/lineup

Which redirects to http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/contactsupport/lineup_tool.html

Unfortunately it's been broken for a little while and there's been no word when or if it'll be fixed. And apparently mention of the page throughout support sections is no longer there, so the lineup tool might simply be gone for good.


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