# TiVo Whole Home



## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

TiVo Whole Home Advertisement

I just saw an advertisement from TiVo representing their TiVo Whole Home. I actually find this rather funny; one of my biggest complaints about TiVo is that it isn't whole home or even really whole home friendly. Want to watch on a second TV? Purchase another TiVo!!!!! 

A six tuner Premier and distributed TiVo Minis that do not permanently co-op a tuner, then we are getting closer to a whole home solution, but today?

I just do not think adding the TiVo stream and the 10 year old TiVo desktop constitutes a Whole Home Solution.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

bradleys said:


> TiVo Whole Home Advertisement
> 
> I just saw an advertisement from TiVo representing their TiVo Whole Home. I actually find this rather funny; one of my biggest complaints about TiVo is that it isn't whole home or even really whole home friendly. Want to watch on a second TV? Purchase another TiVo!!!!!
> 
> ...


Ya not really there yet as you can not stream to android, windows, or apple PCs. So lots of screens that still can not access content.

But all a whole home system has to do to actually be a true whole home solution is be able to play any of your DVR's content on any screen you want to use. That does not require a single DVR with extenders.

Multiple Premiere DVRs with a Stream that had ios, android, windows & apple clients would certainly be a whole home system as it would allow you to view any of your DVR's content on any screen you wanted to.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I'm not buying it til they make clients for Apple II, Commodore 64 and Atari 800.


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## malayphred (Jan 29, 2007)

Arcady said:


> I'm not buying it til they make clients for Apple II, Commodore 64 and Atari 800.


HaHa


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Awesome!


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## Bulldawg9908 (Feb 19, 2011)

From that page, they are counting the ability to download to a PC as a whole home solution.

If that's the case, then the ReplayTVs I retired 4 years ago were a whole home solution because I downloaded from those all the time.

Whole home to me means the ability to play on any screen in the house, on demand from any TiVo in the house. TiVo is probably still 3-4 years away from that reality, if ever.

I love this quote:


> TiVo Desktop enables Dad to transfer his shows to his laptop and enjoy them in his command center-sometimes called the home office.


Notice how they use the word "command" in there to imply that the watching is on demand, not after waiting for hours for the football game to download over a flakey wireless connection. Who the heck calls a home office a "command center?" Only sneaky marketing types who want to imply something that isn't true.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Bulldawg9908 said:


> Whole home to me means the ability to play on any screen in the house, on demand from any TiVo in the house. TiVo is probably still 3-4 years away from that reality, if ever.


TiVo Premiere XL4/XL6(my guess this is next in the pipeline), TiVo Minis as extenders, and TiVo Stream to give you on demand content on Android and iOS devices sounds like a whole home solution to me. And we should see all of that this year.


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## Bulldawg9908 (Feb 19, 2011)

rainwater said:


> TiVo Premiere XL4/XL6(my guess this is next in the pipeline), TiVo Minis as extenders, and TiVo Stream to give you on demand content on Android and iOS devices sounds like a whole home solution to me. And we should see all of that this year.


We're still missing streaming to computers--and that has to include copy protected content.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Bulldawg9908 said:


> We're still missing streaming to computers--and that has to include copy protected content.


That is possible with the Stream. My guess is Android is next for the stream then PC viewing.


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## Bulldawg9908 (Feb 19, 2011)

rainwater said:


> That is possible with the Stream. My guess is Android is next for the stream then PC viewing.


It was my understanding the Stream could only stream to iOS 5.1 and later devices.

If you know differently, you should head over to http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=499184 and let them know how to do it.

Downloading to computers doesn't count because that automatically rules out copy protected content and it requires you to wait for the download to complete and requires space on the computer for storage.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Bulldawg9908 said:


> It was my understanding the Stream could only stream to iOS 5.1 and later devices.
> 
> If you know differently, you should head over to http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=499184 and let them know how to do it.


TiVo has said Android support is coming. I never said it was available now. But for the Stream, after iOS and Android support, PC support is the obvious choice.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Bulldawg9908 said:


> We're still missing streaming to computers--and that has to include copy protected content.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9491259#post9491259

A solution to stream to the PC has been community developed, however it doesn't work with copy protected content...

Luckily, I don't have any!


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

bradleys said:


> TiVo Whole Home Advertisement


That's pretty funny that they show an Apple screen and a Mac Pro.. but when you go to the next page, they show *Windows* UI screenshots and it's fairly darn hidden that you need(*) to buy EXPENSIVE EXTRA SOFTWARE to actually do this on a Mac. That's semi deceptive advertising, IMHO.

(*) Yeah yeah yeah, we have kmttg, pyTivo, StreamBaby. I like those, but those are all fairly "hokey" and wish there were an official solution (that didn't cost $79 -- and that's a discounted price). I still can't tell if Roxio can download _without_ converting, so I could edit recordings. (I use MPEG Streamclip, but it doesn't work for all downloads, and VLC doesn't have a usable editing UI.)


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I have Roxio Toast on my Mac (mostly because I want to burn Blu-Ray discs on my Mac - the TiVo stuff is just a bonus) and it transfers the same .tivo files that the PC TiVo Desktop transfers.


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

rainwater said:


> TiVo has said Android support is coming. I never said it was available now. But for the Stream, after iOS and Android support, PC support is the obvious choice.


TiVo also said the Mini is coming, look how good that worked out.

You'd think they would've held off on their "whole home" marketing gimmick until they actually had it.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

bradleys said:


> TiVo Whole Home Advertisement
> 
> I just saw an advertisement from TiVo representing their "TiVo Whole Home". I actually find this rather funny; one of my biggest complaints about TiVo is that it isn't whole home or even really whole home friendly. Want to watch on a second TV? Purchase another TiVo!!!!!
> 
> ...


I just don't get why folks continue to say that the current distributed architecture whole home solution is any less valid than the centralized client/server architecture?

We have 3 Tivo premieres and a NAS on the network and its every bit a whole home solution complete with great back end management software from the development community.

Sure, a Tivo 4XL and a couple minis MIGHT save a few bucks (less than you think with the current offers) but its also less capable.

OK, so folks always want a lower cost option but Tivo really does have a whole home solution RIGHT NOW that works VERY WELL. Could add a few features but that's always the case.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Bulldawg9908 said:


> Whole home to me means the ability to play on any screen in the house, on demand from any TiVo in the house. TiVo is probably still 3-4 years away from that reality, if ever.


No, tivo has that capability RIGHT NOW and has for over a year.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> No, tivo has that capability RIGHT NOW and has for over a year.


Well technically TiVo has had a whole home system since the release of Multi-Room Viewing (MRV).

However the add is similar to their "One Box to rule them all" campaign in that it stretches the truth at best. While the add is careful to be technically correct it would lead any uninformed person to believe you can easily watch all of your TiVo DVR's content on any TV, computer, or tablet in your home all you need are multiple TiVo DVRs, a Stream, and some computer software.

We all know the reality is somewhat different. As I stated in one in my earlier posts; protected content is excluded from computers, and the only tablets that can be used are ios devices. This leaves lots of screens out of TiVo's current whole home solution.

They are moving in the write direction just allot slower than some of us had hoped for.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

This is MARKETING. Any single claim for anything needs to be reviewed before jumping in. Anyone looking to buy into hype is buying into hype. Caveat emptor. 

There is no defined term for "whole home", so it can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jrtroo said:


> This is MARKETING. Any single claim for anything needs to be reviewed before jumping in. Anyone looking to buy into hype is buying into hype. Caveat emptor.
> 
> There is no defined term for "whole home", so it can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean.


Absolutely - however TiVo's add itself defined whole home as being able to view on TV, Computer, & Tablet Screens. It sounded about right to me so that is what I have been using in this thread.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

jrtroo said:


> This is MARKETING. Any single claim for anything needs to be reviewed before jumping in. Anyone looking to buy into hype is buying into hype. Caveat emptor.
> 
> There is no defined term for "whole home", so it can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean.


That is true, but if I were TiVo, I would have waited for the Mini before claiming the whole home solution a victory. Today, if you purchase a separate TiVo for every TV in your home you have a whole home solution! I am not really sure how much has changed in this "whole home soution" definition since the S2 days but I suppose MARKETING can stretch it till it breaks!

And I personally do have a TiVo on all of my TV's... But I still think it is a bit premature. Now I want to put a TV on my back patio of course this will be a minimal use TV and I really do not want to pay for a full TiVo solution.

Today, what are my options??? Let me answer that - very limited.

Short of either buying a new TiVo or hacking together an HDMI splitter from another TiVo I have no solution. That is why an extender solution is so important.

But even that solution is wonky - do I really want the extender to permanantly coop a tuner? If I want an extender (live TV) in the game room and an extender on the back patio and an extender in the kitchen - Now I only have one tuner available per device? Blech...

I am a huge TiVo advocate - I really want them to get this working well!

Give me a decent price: $150 for the unit and $100 for lifetime service on the Mini - and I will sell me S3, purchase a new Premier 4 and two extenders. Oh... And don't Coop my tuner!


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

bradleys said:


> That is true, but if I were TiVo, I would have waited for the Mini before claiming the whole home solution a victory. Today, if you purchase a separate TiVo for every TV in your home you have a whole home solution! I am not really sure how much has changed in this "whole home soution" definition since the S2 days but I suppose MARKETING can stretch it till it breaks!
> 
> And I personally do have a TiVo on all of my TV's... But I still think it is a bit premature. Now I want to put a TV on my back patio of course this will be a minimal use TV and I really do not want to pay for a full TiVo solution.
> 
> ...


Well what each of us want as individuals in a whole home system and how much we think it should cost is a completely different matter versus if TiVo has a whole home system or not.

I tend to think the mini is an important part as it should make a system more affordable. But I also think there are lots of other things that would be nice to have as options. Not the least of them being the actually ability to easily use any screen one wants to.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

They didn't wait because others are touting it as well. Cannot afford to not show up in a google search.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

To me, they will never be whole home until they have an integrated now playing list and cooperative scheduling. You should not have to know which tivo a show is on or will be recorded on. 

I know someone will say that's not their direction and no one else is doing. They're all doing one main box and having others that can display the content. However, for me that's just not going to work because I have OTA only.


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## scole250 (Nov 8, 2005)

magnus said:


> To me, they will never be whole home until they have an integrated now playing list and cooperative scheduling. You should not have to know which tivo a show is on or will be recorded on.
> 
> I know someone will say that's not their direction and no one else is doing. They're all doing one main box and having others that can display the content. However, for me that's just not going to work because I have OTA only.


+100 on this. That was the one and only thing I liked about TWC's whole house DVR system. We had 2 DVRs with a consolidated recordings list. Tivo needs that now. I don't buy the strategy of one box that does all the recording.
1. I have 6TB on my Tivos which may be more than I need but I know that 2TB on a single Tivo isn't enough and I don't want to have to push them off on a server.
2. I want more than 4 tuners. I might replace all my 2 tuner Tivo for 4 tuners so I can record 12 shows at a time (could happen)
3. I want at least 2 Tivos in case one goes on the frizt.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

magnus said:


> To me, they will never be whole home until they have an integrated now playing list and cooperative scheduling. You should not have to know which tivo a show is on or will be recorded on.
> 
> I know someone will say that's not their direction and no one else is doing. They're all doing one main box and having others that can display the content. However, for me that's just not going to work because I have OTA only.


I consider this the perfect combination of functionality and business strategy. Full TiVo's with Cooperative scheduling / Integrated NPL - and TiVo Mini extenders. If you want to add to your tuner pool you add a whole new TiVo, if you have enough tuners and just need an extender add a TiVo Mini...

Just as the Mini's are slaved to a TiVo, it should be possible to slave Full TiVo's to a single master TiVo to do all the work.

Solid business cases for both items.


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## jadziedzic (Apr 20, 2009)

jcthorne said:


> Sure, a Tivo 4XL and a couple minis MIGHT save a few bucks (less than you think with the current offers) but its also less capable.


Let's say I have a TiVo Premiere at my primary viewing location, a CableCARD-equipped TV (I know, a rarity) in the bedroom, and a TiVo HD (also with CableCARD) in the exercise room. I have the privilege of paying Comcast $16/month in "additional digital outlet" fees for the two secondary locations; that's just shy of $200 per year. If I could replace the two secondary devices with minis and return the two CableCARDs that would pay for itself in a bit more than two years*, and save me money on my cable bill from that point onward. In my view that's that's a LOT more than "a few bucks".

The ability to watch ANY of my current Comcast lineup plus any recorded material stored on the single "master" TiVo at the secondary locations is more than capable in my situation.

* Presuming I can buy the minis for about $200 each with lifetime service.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

magnus said:


> To me, they will never be whole home until they have an integrated now playing list and cooperative scheduling. You should not have to know which tivo a show is on or will be recorded on.
> 
> I know someone will say that's not their direction and no one else is doing. They're all doing one main box and having others that can display the content. However, for me that's just not going to work because I have OTA only.





scole250 said:


> +100 on this. That was the one and only thing I liked about TWC's whole house DVR system. We had 2 DVRs with a consolidated recordings list. Tivo needs that now. I don't buy the strategy of one box that does all the recording.
> 1. I have 6TB on my Tivos which may be more than I need but I know that 2TB on a single Tivo isn't enough and I don't want to have to push them off on a server.
> 2. I want more than 4 tuners. I might replace all my 2 tuner Tivo for 4 tuners so I can record 12 shows at a time (could happen)
> 3. I want at least 2 Tivos in case one goes on the frizt.





bradleys said:


> I consider this the perfect combination of functionality and business strategy. Full TiVo's with Coorperative scheduling / Integrated NPL - and TiVo Mini extenders. If you want to add to your tuner pool you add a whole new TiVo, if you have enough tuners and just need an extender add a TiVo Mini...
> 
> Just as the Mini's are slaved to a TiVo, it should be possible to slave Full TiVo's to a single master TiVo to do all the work.
> 
> Solid business cases for both items.


I am 100% with you guys on this and have posted it in other threads.



jadziedzic said:


> Let's say I have a TiVo Premiere at my primary viewing location, a CableCARD-equipped TV (I know, a rarity) in the bedroom, and a TiVo HD (also with CableCARD) in the exercise room. I have the privilege of paying Comcast $16/month in "additional digital outlet" fees for the two secondary locations; that's just shy of $200 per year. If I could replace the two secondary devices with minis and return the two CableCARDs that would pay for itself in a bit more than two years*, and save me money on my cable bill from that point onward. In my view that's that's a LOT more than "a few bucks".
> 
> The ability to watch ANY of my current Comcast lineup plus any recorded material stored on the single "master" TiVo at the secondary locations is more than capable in my situation.
> 
> * Presuming I can buy the minis for about $200 each with lifetime service.


or consider this how about only needing 1 cable card even if you have 3 dual tuner TiVos (one M card will work with up to 6 tuners)? If you could link the TiVos together why couldn't the controlling Tivo provide cable card data to the other 2.

There is so much that could be done that never will, it is really sad.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Anyone with Comcast is eagerly awaiting the mini due to these much higher than average "outlet" fees. 

You failed to include in your analysis the sale of your Tivo HD, which I assume is lifetime (based upon the * footnote).

My only concern is that the mini be able to handle the netflix app as well. I use it through my tivo's without issue and a lack of it would be a hit against revamping my setup.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> Absolutely - however TiVo's add itself defined whole home as being able to view on TV, Computer, & Tablet Screens. It sounded about right to me so that is what I have been using in this thread.


Tivo content is available on every screen in our home and some outside the home. All tvs, all computers and all tablets and phones. And we use android (and kindle).

Just because your programming provider has decided you are not allowed to view some content on some devices does not mean the 'whole home' solution does not work. Quite the contrary, tivo is farther along on this front than any other DVR provider. Much further.

The solutions exist for material that allows it. If your provider does not allow you to use the programming the way you want, get the material elsewhere or complain to the provider.

Other than for computers and tablets streaming, the whole house solution currently works VERY WELL for ALL content, even protected.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

bradleys said:


> Give me a decent price: $150 for the unit and $100 for lifetime service on the Mini - and I will sell me S3, purchase a new Premier 4 and two extenders. Oh... And don't Coop my tuner!


So you are ok with paying $250 for each mini but not ok with paying $400 for a low end Tivo Premiere?

Personally I think the additional capabilities the Premiere offers over the mini are worth $150 per unit but at least we know what you are complaining about.

Tivo has a fully working whole home solution, you just do not like the price point. All this complaining over $150? Really?


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

scole250 said:


> +100 on this. That was the one and only thing I liked about TWC's whole house DVR system. We had 2 DVRs with a consolidated recordings list. Tivo needs that now. I don't buy the strategy of one box that does all the recording.
> 1. I have 6TB on my Tivos which may be more than I need but I know that 2TB on a single Tivo isn't enough and I don't want to have to push them off on a server.
> 2. I want more than 4 tuners. I might replace all my 2 tuner Tivo for 4 tuners so I can record 12 shows at a time (could happen)
> 3. I want at least 2 Tivos in case one goes on the frizt.


I will agree that an integrated NPL and functional schedule managment are two features Tivo's whole home solution really needs. I think the NPL may happen the cooperative schedule, not so much. I would be estatic just to get the NPL.

Still, while it needs a few more features, the current solution does work and it works better than any of Tivo's competitors. I trust they will continue improvements even if they are not what I would want.....slowly.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

jcthorne said:


> So you are ok with paying $250 for each mini but not ok with paying $400 for a low end Tivo Premiere?
> 
> Personally I think the additional capabilities the Premiere offers over the mini are worth $150 per unit but at least we know what you are complaining about.
> 
> Tivo has a fully working whole home solution, you just do not like the price point. All this complaining over $150? Really?


I just browsed the TiVo web site and with their _Big Game Sale_ the cheapest TiVo you can purchase is a 500GB 2 tuner Premier @ $99 + $399 lifetime service (with multi unit discount) so $500 not $400. Yes, I am ok paying $500 for an additional Premier, heck I paid $1000 for my S3 with lifetime. What I am saying is that it is a real stretch to say you have a whole home solution when your only option is to purchase a full DVR for each TV...

As for the dollars? I actually think $200 is the sweet spot for a mini - all in. And they should not offer a separate option for a service fee, frankly for an extender it is just confusing. Just one reasonable price - all in

But yes, half price for half a TiVo makes sense to me. And I would be far more inclined to drop $200 - $250 on an an extender for a tv on my back porch then for a full unit - especially if it is small enough to hang off the back of the TV. Without tuner pooling - a full unit would bring me very little value.

Really!


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

jcthorne said:


> I will agree that an integrated NPL and functional schedule managment are two features Tivo's whole home solution really needs. I think the NPL may happen the cooperative schedule, not so much. I would be estatic just to get the NPL.
> 
> Still, while it needs a few more features, the current solution does work and it works better than any of Tivo's competitors. I trust they will continue improvements even if they are not what I would want.....slowly.


With the new HD screens that allow you to view content on a remote premier, they have really improved the experience quite a bit. It isn't an integrated NPL, but the usability has improved in my opinion. I just wish my pytivo shares used the same HD screens.

A lot of people complain about speed already, and what I don't want is a huge delay populating the NPL as the TiVo polls two or three remote TiVo's to build and display it's NPL list.

I am positive this is why TiVo has avoided adding this functionality. Maybe in the S5 models!


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

If they ever release the mini, I will sell my S3, replace it with a 4 tuner Premier and an extender...

So the budget:

$600 for a P4 TiVo + service
$250 for an extender (high price)
-$300 for resale on the S3
Total $550

I really do not want to put a full TiVo in my back yard and in the end I save $50 on the p4 upgrade I have been putting off! 

And currently to run the TV in my game room, I have an hdmi splitter @ the media room TiVo - so another extender for that room would be great to get rid of that wonky solution.

But the thought of co-opting a tuner for both rarely used TV's really annoys me. Not only are we not pooling tuners - we are doing just the opposite!

Is that really a whole home solution?


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## Digital Man (Jan 2, 2013)

bradleys said:


> But the thought of co-opting a tuner for both rarely used TV's really annoys me. Not only are we not pooling tuners - we are doing just the opposite!


The rumor mill seems to think that you will have the option of allocating or NOT-allocating a tuner for the Mini to provide live TV. I plan to not allocate a tuner on my XL4 for the Mini since we rarely would want to watch live TV on the Mini. On the rare occasion where I want to watch Live TV on the Mini I can temporarily assign it a tuner, or just record the show I want to watch on the XL4 and immediately start playing the recording back in the Mini.

DM


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I have seen that, but If you don't allocate a tuner then you don't have the option for live TV. I suspect your idea of "temporarily allocating a tuner" is going to be pretty inconvenient, requiring you to re-pair from the host device each time. It would be easier to initiate a recording on the host TiVo and MRS real time with a small buffer.

At least for me, the need for live content on a rarely used TV is very important. If I only wanted recorded content, I could easily do that with a little python magic and a DNLA extender. No need to purchase a TiVo extender

But I started this thread to discuss TiVo's claim of a whole home solution... 

From my point of view the only whole home option available is to purchase separate TiVo's for each TV. With that, I am not really sure how anything has changed since they introduced MRV with the S2.

And the extender option sounds like a great step in the right direction - however, co-opting of a tuner is a pretty limiting and wonky solution. We have begged for tuner pooling for years and this is completely the opposite direction!

I am not upset, and I still really love my tivo's - but yeah, I call BS on the whole home claim.

At least for now...


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Is this less "whole home" that D*TV's "whole home"?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Never had their service, and I don't necessarily think it is best to compare - but from their advertisement:



> Genie, only from @@@@@, serves your entire home. So now you can enjoy a full HD DVR experience on every TV in your home, without seeing a box in every room. Genie also avoids recording conflicts by letting you record any five shows at the same time, all in HD.
> 
> Your main TV is connected to the HD DVR, and each of your additional TV's is connected to Genie using a small box called genie Mini Client


Sounds similar to the TiVo / Mini Relationship - not sure about the shared tuner / tuner co-op issues. But there is one big difference... It is available today!

I wouldn't change services over this, but it was rather eye opening to do the research...

Bottom line - yes, I am being critical of an advertisement that I feel is more than a little optimistic and rather misleading. And yes, I am also being a little critical at some of the limitations planned for the solution that has been promised, (still waiting on it).

Other then that, I am pretty happy with what my TiVo's currently do. But this proves the competition (armed with TiVo patent permission) is moving ahead very quickly.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Tivo was offering refurb Premieres for free with purchase of lifetime at $400 last week. This was about $50 better than previous deals of $49 that run pretty consistantly.

I waited for the mini for some time but finally decided when they announced that the mini will not support OTA tv that I needed to consider the full tivo option. For approx 150 more you get two more tuners, one for the local tv if nothing else and more recording capacity. There is also a good chance that the mini will not support amazon and perhaps not netflix. Just too many restrictions for the small savings.


I thought adding one to our not often used kitchen tv was a waste as well....until I added it. With kmttg, managing the set of 3 tivos (one with a 2TB drive) has been child's play and mostly a non issue.

All shows and recordings move to the main unit, with the others taking overflow recordings and the show being transferred to the main unit just after being recorded. Essentially providing an integrated NPL. The moving of recordings when conflicts arise is a manual task but kmttg finds them and allows me to move them to another box in very short order. A task that only needs to be done about once a week as the conficts pop up when new guide data is downloaded at about 2 weeks out. Would be nice if kmttg could automate the task, I should ask the developer...

My point of all this is that a distributed set of tivos along with the available software and a NAS provides a very robust whole home solution that none of the competitors come close to. One that should not be dismissed so easily. The 'tivo at every tv' as you call it, may be a better choice than you think.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

INPL is supposed to be coming in the spring update... Not sure if it is related to the Mini release


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## HeatherA (Jan 10, 2002)

mattack said:


> (*) Yeah yeah yeah, we have kmttg, pyTivo, StreamBaby. I like those, but those are all fairly "hokey" and wish there were an official solution (that didn't cost $79 -- and that's a discounted price).


Hokey? I couldn't live without pyTivo and kmttg. The latter especially. I use it daily. It has made my life much easier when it comes to managing 4 TiVos and 10 tuners. No more running from room to room. Sit at my computer and tweak until my heart is content. Not to mention kmttg has made it very easy for me to build my home TV show library. The features are amazing when you take the time to realize what this little program can do. I don't think hokey is the right term.

<--- stepping off soap box now.


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## HeatherA (Jan 10, 2002)

magnus said:


> To me, they will never be whole home until they have an integrated now playing list and cooperative scheduling. You should not have to know which tivo a show is on or will be recorded on.
> 
> I know someone will say that's not their direction and no one else is doing. They're all doing one main box and having others that can display the content. However, for me that's just not going to work because I have OTA only.


+1

I'd kill for these features.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

compnurd said:


> INPL is supposed to be coming in the spring update... Not sure if it is related to the Mini release


I haven't seen this.... Do you have a reference - I would be very interested.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

jcthorne said:


> Tivo was offering refurb Premieres for free with purchase of lifetime at $400 last week. This was about $50 better than previous deals of $49 that run pretty consistantly.
> 
> I waited for the mini for some time but finally decided when they announced that the mini will not support OTA tv that I needed to consider the full tivo option. For approx 150 more you get two more tuners .


How do you know it's going to be $200 for a mini. Where have they said that? Is this speculation or has pricing been announced?

I really think that anything over $149 is too high. And even that is too high for what it is.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

bradleys said:


> I haven't seen this.... Do you have a reference - I would be very interested.


Margret confirmed it on Twitter right before the fall update


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

magnus said:


> How do you know it's going to be $200 for a mini. Where have they said that? Is this speculation or has pricing been announced?
> 
> I really think that anything over $149 is too high. And even that is too high for what it is.


It was me who said it would be between $200 and $250... How did i come to that price point? Well, it places the cost at half that of a 2 tuner TiVo ($250). 1/2 price for 1/2 a TiVo...

A pricing model with service (as they have indicated) would minimally have a two year pay off - so lets just assume a nominal $5 service fee and say an $80 unit price... $200!

I can guarantee it will not be less then $200... The Moxi mate was $300 after price cuts!

Let me ask you - since they have said it would have both a monthly service fee option and a lifetime service option - how would $150 even fit into that model? Just with that knowledge, how does a service fee option fit into a model with a price point that low?

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/

As long as it co-ops a tuner - I will probably pass, but that has nothing to do with the cost.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

jcthorne said:


> Tivo was offering refurb Premieres for free with purchase of lifetime at $400 last week. This was about $50 better than previous deals of $49 that run pretty consistently.


I am sure that eventually they will sell the mini as a refurb item as well - but $500 is a more realistic price point for a two tuner TiVo with multi unit discount - on sale...



> My point of all this is that a distributed set of tivos along with the available software and a NAS provides a very robust whole home solution that none of the competitors come close to. One that should not be dismissed so easily. The 'tivo at every tv' as you call it, may be a better choice than you think


And I have 3 active TiVo's - but I am still not sure what has changed since the S2 was released with MRV in 2007


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

bradleys said:


> And I have 3 active TiVo's - but I am still not sure what has changed since the S2 was released with MRV in 2007


 You're kidding right? MRS is a HUGE advantage over MRV. Not only for the copy protection angle, but the fact that you can MRS a show that is still recording, and now you can delete and schedule recordings and/or season passes on remote TiVos. Also the addition of RPC functionality (used by iPad & Android apps and 3rd party implementations) is a huge step forwards in co-operative functionality of multiple TiVos. From 1 program I can now easily manage all recordings and conflicts for all my series 4 TiVos without having to do that in front of each TiVo. I would hate to go back to series 3 or earlier units now that I'm used to all that.
So I think TiVo has the best multi-room implementation available if you're willing to pay for it (multiple units), and addition of Mini will make it a little cheaper.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

bradleys said:


> It was me who said it would be between $200 and $250... How did i come to that price point? Well, it places the cost at half that of a 2 tuner TiVo ($250). 1/2 price for 1/2 a TiVo...
> 
> A pricing model with service (as they have indicated) would minimally have a two year pay off - so lets just assume a nominal $5 service fee and say an $80 unit price... $200!
> 
> ...


It's all going to depend on what it does. If it just plays show from your Tivo and no Netflix, Amazon, Vudu then it's really not going to be worth it. Then you might as well just use your Tivo Stream and an iPad.

I'm really not sure why they even have a service fee option for this. It's really going to be too high if it's $200 or more.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

moyekj said:


> You're kidding right? MRS is a HUGE advantage over MRV. Not only for the copy protection angle, but the fact that you can MRS a show that is still recording, and now you can delete and schedule recordings and/or season passes on remote TiVos. Also the addition of RPC functionality (used by iPad & Android apps and 3rd party implementations) is a huge step forwards in co-operative functionality of multiple TiVos. From 1 program I can now easily manage all recordings and conflicts for all my series 4 TiVos without having to do that in front of each TiVo. I would hate to go back to series 3 or earlier units now that I'm used to all that.
> So I think TiVo has the best multi-room implementation available if you're willing to pay for it (multiple units), and addition of Mini will make it a little cheaper.


Yes, TiVo has improved its offering nicely over the years.

But I stand by my opinion that the general architecture really hasn't changed. Yes, you can have a connected solution if you add a full TiVo to each TV but you are still missing pooled tuners and a consolidated NPL...

A large 6 tuner TiVo with extenders would provide that unified experience at an overall lower price.

Down side? Single point of failure in the single TiVo unit...

I am not bashing TiVo, pooled tuners and consolidated NPL has been requested since before I purchased my first TiVo.

But yes, I do think the marketing campaign is a tad premature...


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

magnus said:


> It's all going to depend on what it does. If it just plays show from your Tivo and no Netflix, Amazon, Vudu then it's really not going to be worth it. Then you might as well just use your Tivo Stream and an iPad.
> 
> I'm really not sure why they even have a service fee option for this. It's really going to be too high if it's $200 or more.


In the video, they discuss over the top content similar to a full TiVo. For all intents an purposes the experience appears to be very similar to a full TiVo: watch live TV, initiate a recording, watch a recording, browse the guide, Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etc...

I do agree that a service fee is silly - I can only assume with the unit price of a base model TiVo @ $99, they are struggling with the contradiction of an extender priced higher than a full TiVo. Thus my prediction of the unit @ $80 and your choice of a $5 service fee or lifetime fee of $120ish - something like that...

As i said in my previous post, the upside to the Mini vs. TiVo is the appearance of a consolidated NPL - unfortunately, with the co-oped tuner you loose the advantage of pooled tuners.

Kind of ruins it for me...


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

You could buy a used premiere for $50 and pay $13 per month to do everything a mini does except allocate a tuner. You could mitigate the live TV issue by running cable directly to the premiere and watching local and unencrypted channels live or even use an antenna. The up side is that you have 2 extra tuners to record from. The question is how long would it take before the mini is cheaper than just using a used premiere in this manner?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

shwru980r said:


> You could buy a used premiere for $50 and pay $13 per month to do everything a mini does except allocate a tuner. You could mitigate the live TV issue by running cable directly to the premiere and watching local and unencrypted channels live or even use an antenna. The up side is that you have 2 extra tuners to record from. The question is how long would it take before the mini is cheaper than just using a used premiere in this manner?


My complaint isn't the cost of the TiVo - or even the effectiveness of multiple TiVo's in the home to create an enjoyable complimentary environment...

I just saw the advertisement for TiVo's Whole Home solution and frankly I think the claim is a stretch. They do not have a *Whole Home Solution* today, they have independent units that work together pretty well. And they have a fantastic mobile streaming solution that streams to only one make of mobile device. And they have a desktop utility that hasn't been updated in - hell, feels like a decade!

I love my TiVo's and I think the Mini is moving in the right direction for what I personally would call a Whole Home Solution - other may have a more liberal definition then I do - TiVo apparently does.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

bradleys said:


> My complaint isn't the cost of the TiVo - or even the effectiveness of multiple TiVo's in the home to create an enjoyable complimentary environment...
> 
> I just saw the advertisement for TiVo's Whole Home solution and frankly I think the claim is a stretch. They do not have a *Whole Home Solution* today, they have independent units that work together pretty well. And they have a fantastic mobile streaming solution that streams to only one make of mobile device. And they have a desktop utility that hasn't been updated in - hell, feels like a decade!
> 
> I love my TiVo's and I think the Mini is moving in the right direction for what I personally would call a Whole Home Solution - other may have a more liberal definition then I do - TiVo apparently does.


Sorry, but I completely disagree.

Distributed archetecture vs client/server archetecture has been two different implementation means of multi user applications for decades. They both have advantages and disadvantages but both can be full solutions. Distributed is usually more expensive but offers a better user interface, less dependancy on network issues and more robust protection against complete failure. This applies to far more than Tivo.

When I can be watching a show in the living room, pause it, go to the bed room and resume watching where I left off...thats whole home integration.

When I can see every show available on every tivo and server in the home form any screen in the home using a single consistant user interface....thats whole home integration.

When I can manage all recordings, all future jobs and move recordings at will among the units and the server....thats whole home integration.

You continue to dismiss the parts of the solution from our developer community. This is one of Tivo biggest strengths and is very much a part of what Tivo offers over its competition.

Sorry but the lack of an integrated NPL rather than folders in the NPL is a desired feature, but its not a demonstration that whole home integration does not exist. It does. It just does not meet ALL of your desires. Neither does any of the competition. They offer far less.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

jcthorne said:


> Sorry, but I completely disagree.


Well, we must then agree to disagree. Tivo, the company, does NOT have a whole home solution. You cobbled one together yourself combining Tivo units, an additional storage device, and third party software. While I'm happy that you're so pleased with your solution and I'm happy that you're proof it can be done, Tivo itself does NOT have a whole home solution.  At least not in the way I think most people would define it.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I really think this conversation has run it's course. 

But let me say, I do not discount the community developed tools at all. If the conversation was about; "hey, let us help you get the most out of your TiVo using these great community developed tools", then I completely agree with you.

But that is not the conversation. TiVo has a whole home advertisement. If I go to them and say - yeah! I want your whole home solution! Their answer is to have me purchase a TiVo - and repeat, and repeat, and repeat... The TiVo works great but that isn't a whole home solution that is a single solution repeated x number of times.

I never said TiVo's didn't communicate together and I never said the user experience of multiple TiVo's wasn't an acceptable experience.

Another problem with multiple individual TiVo's is the life span of the devices. I have a Premier, an HD, an S3 and a deactivated S2. These units work together pretty well - but to get the most out of the architecture I would need to upgrade all of my units to the most modern version. It can be done and I am on schedule to replace my S3 - soon. But it is a very committed (and well healed) TiVo lover that purchases 3 to 4 brand new TiVo's at the same time!

And when the S5 comes out, I would need to do the same thing all over again. 

A true whole home solution would be designed to be upgraded as a unit - far easier and far less expensive to keep your entire ecosystem on the same platform.

Anyway, I think I have made my point. And I certainly concede that if you are willing to purchase a full TiVo for each TV in you home and willing to upgrade all of those TiVo's en mas when TiVo releases a new platform - then what they have today works just as well.

And while it may be a whole home experience, it certainly isn't what I would call a Whole Home Solution...


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

bmgoodman said:


> Well, we must then agree to disagree. Tivo, the company, does NOT have a whole home solution. You cobbled one together yourself combining Tivo units, an additional storage device, and third party software. While I'm happy that you're so pleased with your solution and I'm happy that you're proof it can be done, Tivo itself does NOT have a whole home solution. At least not in the way I think most people would define it.


Well I don't think any of us know what most people think. If you would like to define what you would like to see in a whole home system feel free, but saying TiVo's current system isn't a whole home system just because it doesn't meet your definition is pretty weak.

Just for reference TWC's whole home system requires multiple DVRs if you want more than 2 tuners. If you look at what multiple Premiere DVRs can do versus what we expect a single Premiere 4 and a mini will do there isn't much difference.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

HeatherA said:


> Hokey? I couldn't live without pyTivo and kmttg. The latter especially. I use it daily. It has made my life much easier when it comes to managing 4 TiVos and 10 tuners. No more running from room to room. Sit at my computer and tweak until my heart is content. Not to mention kmttg has made it very easy for me to build my home TV show library. The features are amazing when you take the time to realize what this little program can do. I don't think hokey is the right term.
> 
> <--- stepping off soap box now.


Hokey -- they're programs with "lowest common denominator" UIs.

I love that there are any of these programs, so I don't have to pay $79 or whatever for Toast.. But in some ways, I have also thought at least if there were problems with Toast, I'd have an official place to complain, file bug reports, etc.

(BTW, the author of kmttg HAS added a few features at my request, so I am very grateful.)


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

mattack said:


> Hokey -- they're programs with "lowest common denominator" UIs.
> 
> I love that there are any of these programs, so I don't have to pay $79 or whatever for Toast.. But in some ways, I have also thought at least if there were problems with Toast, I'd have an official place to complain, file bug reports, etc.
> 
> (BTW, the author of kmttg HAS added a few features at my request, so I am very grateful.)


Yeah, i guess if that level of support is 'hokey' I'll take it. Try getting ANY support out of Roxio, much less add a feature you would like to see.

Personally I think kmttg's UI is straight forward and efficient. It may not be 'pretty' but once you understand the work flow it makes alot of sense.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

bradleys said:


> Never had their service, and I don't necessarily think it is best to compare - but from their advertisement:
> 
> Sounds similar to the TiVo / Mini Relationship - not sure about the shared tuner / tuner co-op issues. But there is one big difference... It is available today!
> 
> ...


Agreed. TiVo spent years patent trolling instead of innovating. They could have been the first to do a whole-home DVR, and instead they are the last. However, I just built a Media Center PC, and the interface is pretty bad, and I want to eventually go back to TiVo. TiVo has the interface down, and no one else does.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I wouldn't call what they did patent trolling... 

Patent Trolling is when a shell company runs around purchasing patents and then tries to generate revenue from that portfolio. Patent Trolls do not build anything, they do not innovate or even simply produce a product. They purchase patents and then broadly sue anyone they think they can make a buck off of.

TiVo did innovate and TiVo had every right in the world to protect it's intellectual property. What TiVo did in aggressively protecting it's intellectual property is exactly what the patent laws were designed to do.

Now - I can and will be critical of TiVo for allowing themselves to fall behind and not focusing on buiding on their ecosystem earlier. Is that a fault of leadership? Is that a fault of funding? Is that a lack of technical tallent? Is it a lack of vision? All of the above?

I am not sure - but it has nothing to do with patent trolling...


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

bradleys said:


> Now - I can and will be critical of TiVo for allowing themselves to fall behind and not focusing on buiding on their ecosystem earlier. Is that a fault of leadership? Is that a fault of funding? Is that a lack of technical tallent? Is it a lack of vision? All of the above?


Perhaps lack of vision. But honestly, lack of maturity in the market. TiVo was really hamstrung by the new CableCard standard and loosing Directv. I think these two are what hurt TiVo the most. Now, they've found a way to distribute to MSOs and developing for cablecards is no longer as terrible as it once was.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

"Whole home" is opinion. In mine, Tivo has had whole home for quite a few years. They did not give it that title, as it was not yet popular to do so. But, the abilities are there.

Most of the folks here want more out of whole home, which is fine. But it cannot be denied that the ability to tranfer content around the home has been available for quite some time. (notwithstanding the limits sometimes placed by others on this ability)


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

bradleys said:


> I wouldn't call what they did patent trolling...
> 
> Patent Trolling is when a shell company runs around purchasing patents and then tries to generate revenue from that portfolio. Patent Trolls do not build anything, they do not innovate or even simply produce a product. They purchase patents and then broadly sue anyone they think they can make a buck off of.
> 
> ...


There's a distinction is that yes, TiVo actually does ship a product, so they are not only patent trolling, but they are still patent trolls in the sense that they've been extorting companies for a lot of money for ridiculous patents.

I would argue that the company has been so busy patent trolling that they haven't innovated their products, at least in the ecosystem sense. They got desperate, and started trolling instead of competing because they saw other companies also implementing DVRs.



jrtroo said:


> "Whole home" is opinion. In mine, Tivo has had whole home for quite a few years. They did not give it that title, as it was not yet popular to do so. But, the abilities are there.
> 
> Most of the folks here want more out of whole home, which is fine. But it cannot be denied that the ability to tranfer content around the home has been available for quite some time. (notwithstanding the limits sometimes placed by others on this ability)


Whole Home in today's model means server/client, or at least the ability to have clients (like DirecTV where you can have multiple servers).

TiVo invented the concept of MRV, but it's been obvious for years that WHDVR is the future, and MRV is the past, yet TiVo is the last big player to embrace it. Cable, U-Verse, FIOS, MCE, DirecTV and Dish have all now embraced WHDVR and TiVo hasn't.



rainwater said:


> Perhaps lack of vision. But honestly, lack of maturity in the market. TiVo was really hamstrung by the new CableCard standard and loosing Directv. I think these two are what hurt TiVo the most. Now, they've found a way to distribute to MSOs and developing for cablecards is no longer as terrible as it once was.


CableCard was a gift from god. If they didn't have CableCard, they would have been gone years ago. Unfortunately tru-2-way didn't pan out too well, but Comcast at least has given them proprietary access to their VOD platform. Although it's a small segment of the market, especially for a premium product, it's too bad AT&T hasn't been willing to give TiVo access to their system, as a Premiere would work fine on U-Verse with a simple software update, and could support at least 4 tuners, even on the 2-tuner Premieres.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I will quote myself:



> What TiVo did in aggressively protecting it's intellectual property is exactly what the patent laws were designed to do.


You may not like it - neither I nor TiVo care.... But patent laws were designed for a purpose. Specifically to protect the intellectual property of companies - especially small companies that would otherwise have all their ideas stolen by large predatory entities.

These are TiVo's ideas, and they rightfully get a period of exclusivity to bring their products to market. Once their exclusivity period is over, the patents will become public domain and anyone can use them.

General consensus believes that the patent system is ripe of an overhaul. But even if the laws are narrowed to a draconian level making it impossible for Patent trolls to operate - it will only be redefined more clearly to protect companies like TiVo and their intellectual property.

Yes, it is that Apples to Oranges...

For most "patent troll" cases brought by these clearing houses against small companies - the litigant simply couldn't win if the defendant could afford to take it to trial. It is a nasty and predatory practice and killing startups before they can even get any traction.

TiVo (David) beat the Cable Co's (Goliath) - that is the difference.


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> Although it's a small segment of the market, especially for a premium product, it's too bad AT&T hasn't been willing to give TiVo access to their system, as a Premiere would work fine on U-Verse with a simple software update, and could support at least 4 tuners, even on the 2-tuner Premieres.


Really? TiVo can support Microsoft Mediaroom 2.0 IPTV with a "simple software update"?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Bigg said:


> TiVo invented the concept of MRV...


 I don't think so. ReplayTV had what TiVo now calls MRS now very early on which was one of the attractive things about ReplayTV and multiple units.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

compnurd said:


> INPL is supposed to be coming in the spring update... Not sure if it is related to the Mini release


really!?!?!?!

where did you see that?

(or are you not allowed to say?)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

compnurd said:


> Margret confirmed it on Twitter right before the fall update


I don't believe that's what she said- I think she said something about "its not there now" and than that was it.

I think elsewhere she may have even said her personal opinion was she would like to see it work that way.

It wasn't exactly a definitive bunch of quotes.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

bradleys said:


> I will quote myself:
> 
> You may not like it - neither I nor TiVo care.... But patent laws were designed for a purpose. Specifically to protect the intellectual property of companies - especially small companies that would otherwise have all their ideas stolen by large predatory entities.


It's still trolling in a way, even if you want to see the big guys get stung. It's not as flagrant as companies that actually don't have a product though.

The patent was ridiculous that they had, something about the exact implementation of how they wrote video to a hard drive and pulled it back, which just shows how broken our patent system is, as that's just such a simple and obvious thing to do. It's not like TiVo invented it either, they just took off the shelf technology and repackaged it with a really good GUI in a consumer application.

If the system is legitimately reformed, and not just "reformed" the vast majority of patents will be invalidated, software and process patents will go away completely, and the few patents that are remaining will have very short and very narrow usage period.

Copyright is even tougher, given the special interests that benefit for the status quo of absurdly long copyrights. If they were reduced to 10 or maybe 15 years, maybe with some non-commercial free use for a while after that, you mostly fix the orphan works problem, and make it a fair system, while also giving back to the public domain.



Philmatic said:


> Really? TiVo can support Microsoft Mediaroom 2.0 IPTV with a "simple software update"?


All it is is IPTV. It's not rocket science. TiVo Premiere can do MPEG-4. The reality is, however, few users who have good taste in DVRs would have such poor taste in a service provider.


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