# Thinking Outside the Box



## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

With my second lost terabyte of TV shows in under two years, I'm starting to wonder a LOT about Tivo's "bulletproof" file system. The one that's so good it doesn't need an on/off switch.

Here's the recap (both Tivos are always UPS-protected):
*Series 3, within about 6 months of upgrade to a 1 TB WD green drive, goes into a boot loop from which it won't recover. I have to reimage from the original drive.
*TivoHD, 11 months after an upgrade to a different model 1 TB WD green drive, goes into a boot loop from which it won't recover.

In each case, connecting the "bad" drive to a computer and running WD diagnostics and SpinRite 6 finds NOTHING wrong with the drives. No SMART issues recorded either. It seems to me that something has gone wrong in the file system.

Now, I've upgraded at least a dozen Tivos in the past decade, but these HD models are the ONLY ones to ever "fail" where I was unable to find any sign of hard drive problems. And this makes me question the whole "bulletproof" idea.

*So here's the idea:
*
*Could I swap the SATA connectors on the motherboard so that the "primary" disk connects to the eSATA port? Meaning *NO* disk inside the Tivo at all? Then I could connect my Tivo drive with an enclosure on the *outside* of the case.

Assuming this would work, what would this give me? Well, I could easily copy this drive to a backup drive on occasion with MFSTools or ddcopy or something. I say "easily" because I'd no longer have to disconnect and open up the box. I could even consider having a second separate disk with entirely different shows stored there. (Not that this latter idea is very appealing to me.)

OK, so could this work? Would Tivo recognize the drive differently if it's connected from an external enclosure (so long as it connects to the correct header on the motherboard)? Any drawbacks I'm not considering now? NOTE that I'm not interested in EVER having two drives working together (married).


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## robomeister (Feb 4, 2005)

I can't remember which model I did this to, but I did exactly what you are asking. I think it was the TiVoHD. The connectors can be switched and it will boot from the external drive, with no internal drive.. I just can't recall which model it was.

I'll look at a Series3 and update this post to give you a definitive answer.

robomeister


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## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

I believe it's possible to swap the two SATA ports on a TivoHD, but not on a Series 3. On the TivoHD, there are two SATA cables, one going to the internal drive and one going to the eSATA port, so you can just swap them at the motherboard. On the Series 3, the eSATA port is soldered on to the motherboard, so there is no cable to swap. You could still theoretically run the cable for the internal drive to the outside of the box, but you'd have to cut a new hole in the case to run that cable.


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## phdeez (Aug 21, 2003)

Having an external enclosure seems to me just another failure point. However, I have seen people do this (primarily to reduce heat inside the box). Yes, the only thing you need to do is switch the headers. But, why not just backup your shows via TivoDesktop or other archival tools (kmttg, etc)?

I'd also be interested when you 'switch' drives, how tivo.com would like it since it keeps a listing of your NPL (Find TV Shows -> My NPL).

Sorry you've had problems, but good luck and report back how it works!


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

It's my wife's Tivo, so I'm not sure if I'll go through with it or not. On it's own merits, I think the idea is sound. Sure, there's another point of failure, but it would be easier to fix any future issues with the drive outside.

As for how tivo.com would react with a vastly different NPL, my guess is it would be a non-event. Not much different from a device that has been off the network for a few weeks that has vastly different programs in NPL upon its next connection. If anybody cares to provide an alternate view....

OK, I'll post back here to let everyone know if I dared try this. If it were my device, I'd be much more likely. But mine is a Series 3, where the eSATA header is reportedly soldered to the motherboard.

I still find this an interesting discussion, but it could end up being entirely academic. Let's see once the new WD10EVDS drive arrives.... Thanks to all!


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

bmgoodman said:


> It's my wife's Tivo, so I'm not sure if I'll go through with it or not. On it's own merits, I think the idea is sound. Sure, there's another point of failure, but it would be easier to fix any future issues with the drive outside.
> 
> As for how tivo.com would react with a vastly different NPL, my guess is it would be a non-event. Not much different from a device that has been off the network for a few weeks that has vastly different programs in NPL upon its next connection. If anybody cares to provide an alternate view....
> 
> ...


When the Series 3 first came out somebody used (or put together) an extension cable to bring the internal hard drive outside the box, they had to cut a slot in the box but did not need external power for this drive as they used the same power that the internal drive was using, just put it in a box with a small 12v fan and your all set, no external power supply needed, just the room to put the extra hard drive box.
This will work but taking apart a TiVo and removing the hard drive only takes about 5 minutes, its backing up the drive outside the TiVo that takes the time, so i don't know what you will gain in time savings from all this work in making up an external drive unless removing the TiVo itself from its cabinet is a real pain compared to just removing the drive from its external box.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

lessd said:


> When the Series 3 first came out somebody used (or put together) an extension cable to bring the internal hard drive outside the box, they had to cut a slot in the box but did not need external power for this drive as they used the same power that the internal drive was using, just put it in a box with a small 12v fan and your all set, no external power supply needed, just the room to put the extra hard drive box.
> This will work but taking apart a TiVo and removing the hard drive only takes about 5 minutes, its backing up the drive outside the TiVo that takes the time, so i don't know what you will gain in time savings from all this work in making up an external drive unless removing the TiVo itself from its cabinet is a real pain compared to just removing the drive from its external box.


Yes, in my case, the cabinet is a big part of the pain. But your point is well taken. As I said previously, I think the Wife Acceptance Factor (WAF) of my idea will approach zero anyway. Just thought it was still worth bringing it up for discussion. While we're on the topic, I had been hoping the Series 4 would use a small internal SDD for the Tivo OS and have a bay-door where a hard drive could be inserted. Then users could add more hours at any time or replace a dying drive very simply. (In this configuration, I would NOT necessarily expect to be able to swap drives frequently as a way to "juggle" many disks.)


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

bmgoodman said:


> Yes, in my case, the cabinet is a big part of the pain. But your point is well taken. As I said previously, I think the Wife Acceptance Factor (WAF) of my idea will approach zero anyway. Just thought it was still worth bringing it up for discussion. While we're on the topic, I had been hoping the Series 4 would use a small internal SDD for the Tivo OS and have a bay-door where a hard drive could be inserted. Then users could add more hours at any time or replace a dying drive very simply. (In this configuration, I would NOT necessarily expect to be able to swap drives frequently as a way to "juggle" many disks.)


Great idea, not happening as this option does not even exist on almost any standard home computer.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

lessd said:


> Great idea, not happening as this option does not even exist on almost any standard home computer.


Thanks, though I'm not sure what the connection is between existing on a DVR and on a home computer? I'm just going to keep putting the idea out there in case somebody wants to steal it!


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

bmgoodman said:


> Thanks, though I'm not sure what the connection is between existing on a DVR and on a home computer? I'm just going to keep putting the idea out there in case somebody wants to steal it!


I meant that home computers (not used as DVRs) don't have the operating system (like Windows 7) on an internal SSD drive with a pull out drive for the program data.


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