# Here is the official end dates of MPEG-2



## incog-neato

Check the screen crawls .... 3 channels going soon, the rest, who knows?


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## stevel

So now we know... Thanks.


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## shibby191

Pretty much what I had thought, most by year's end and NY locals later on because they need more time to get MDU's upgraded. Thanks for the info.


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## newsposter

my 119 is very sporadic since the neighbors tree grew and even 110 has issue so i'm really glad i have my hr20 and the new channels.

now can they make the 70s channels mpeg4 remaps too


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## incog-neato

There's going to be a LOT of unhappy mdu's come January.


shibby191 said:


> Pretty much what I had thought, most by year's end and NY locals later on because they need more time to get MDU's upgraded. Thanks for the info.


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## TyroneShoes

While that's useful in predicting the end of SOME MPEG-2 on DTV and, I guess, ALL HD MPEG-2 on DTV, speaking as a broadcaster I wish someone would sunset ALL MPEG-2, period, as the thread title alludes, even though that would be the actual date when the HR10 finally becomes obsolete (and not before). 

TV stations would love nothing more than to move to modern compression algorithms that would increase their capabilities. MPEG-2 is an albatross around their necks that might put them out of business at some point. Sure, it would obsolete every legacy ATSC tuner out there, but they really need to transition to a competitive future. Tall order. Outcome definitely in doubt.


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## incog-neato

Obviously I meant HD MPEG2! 


TyroneShoes said:


> While that's useful in predicting the end of SOME MPEG-2 on DTV and, I guess, ALL HD MPEG-2 on DTV, speaking as a broadcaster I wish someone would sunset ALL MPEG-2, period, as the thread title alludes, even though that would be the actual date when the HR10 finally becomes obsolete (and not before).
> 
> TV stations would love nothing more than to move to modern compression algorithms that would increase their capabilities. MPEG-2 is an albatross around their necks that might put them out of business at some point. Sure, it would obsolete every legacy ATSC tuner out there, but they really need to transition to a competitive future. Tall order. Outcome definitely in doubt.


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## TonyD79

newsposter said:


> my 119 is very sporadic since the neighbors tree grew and even 110 has issue so i'm really glad i have my hr20 and the new channels.
> 
> now can they make the 70s channels mpeg4 remaps too


I doubt the 70s channels will still exist. They will probably go the way of the 80s west coast HD networks...gone, baby, gone.


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## Cartrivision

TyroneShoes said:


> While that's useful in predicting the end of SOME MPEG-2 on DTV and, I guess, ALL HD MPEG-2 on DTV, speaking as a broadcaster I wish someone would sunset ALL MPEG-2, period, as the thread title alludes, even though that would be the actual date when the HR10 finally becomes obsolete (and not before).
> 
> TV stations would love nothing more than to move to modern compression algorithms that would increase their capabilities. MPEG-2 is an albatross around their necks that might put them out of business at some point. Sure, it would obsolete every legacy ATSC tuner out there, but they really need to transition to a competitive future. Tall order. Outcome definitely in doubt.


The TV stations compression method has nothing to do with whether DirecTV uses MPEG2 or MPEG4. That decision will be based solely on when DirecTV is willing to obsolete the MPEG2 only receivers that most of their customers use for the purpose of viewing the various MPEG2 DirecTV channels. DirecTV's transition to MPEG4 can happen even if the program originators continue encoding in MPEG2.


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## TyroneShoes

Cartrivision said:


> The TV stations compression method has nothing to do with whether DirecTV uses MPEG2 or MPEG4. That decision will be based solely on when DirecTV is willing to obsolete the MPEG2 only receivers that most of their customers use for the purpose of viewing the various MPEG2 DirecTV channels. DirecTV's transition to MPEG4 can happen even if the program originators continue encoding in MPEG2.


Ya think? Thanks for the corrective update, Captain Obvious, just where did I ever imply anything different?


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## Mike Lang

FYI, I have it on good authority that while these dates have been released, they are estimates and not by any means set in stone.


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## incog-neato

Of course NOTHING in the world is "set in stone" but it's accurate as of this moment and other info I have provided has been spot on. Everything is "subject to change" when it comes to changes like this as there are MANY variables which can have an affect on exact dates. This information has been highly discussed for months if not years but this is the first "official" information that is not based on pure speculation.

Guess you've been talking to DB eh?  I thank you for not deleting it as he did.



Mike Lang said:


> FYI, I have it on good authority that while these dates have been released, they are estimates and not by any means set in stone.


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## catfish john

While visiting my son over the weekend, he wanted to know:
Is there a way to determine if a show is MPEG 2 or 4?


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## incog-neato

It is not based on a "show." Currently if it is an HD channel (except for the channels listed in the original post) it is MPEG4. All the new HD channels are transmitted in MPEG4 and the "original" MPEG2 HD channels listed in the OP will be changing to MPEG4 as noted.



catfish john said:


> While visiting my son over the weekend, he wanted to know:
> Is there a way to determine if a show is MPEG 2 or 4?


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## incog-neato

Just to clarify what I assumed to be obvious ..... the title of this thread should be:

Here is the official end dates of *HD* MPEG-2 

It only applies to DirecTV channels: 72,73,75,76,79 for everyone, 70 & 74 for those also subscribed to SHO or HBO and 74 & 78 for those receiving the HD-Extra pack.

Basically legacy (MPEG2 only) HD receivers including the HR10-250, the H10 and any older HD receivers like Samsung & Sony will no longer receive any HD programming. All "standard" programming will continue to work as will OTA channels if you are geting your locals OTA.


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## Todd

Well, that's not too bad. I don't have to worry about it until January and then for only a few months until the new HDTiVos come out...


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## Castaa

Thanks for posting this. This helped me decide to upgrade instead of fix my HR10-250.


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## Cudahy

I wonder if the new Directv-Tivo agreement will make them continue to allow the 10-250 to get those remaining HD channels until next September when the new DirecTivo HD comes out? It would make sense.


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## stevel

No, it doesn't make sense, and they need to get rid of those MPEG2 HD channels to make room for the added HD channels they have promised. As for "September", who said that?


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## Cudahy

The release said between July and December of next year.


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## BOBCAT

Hey Directv, If you are coming out with your new TiVo powered HD box next summer, why not just leave the HD channels on MPEG 2 until then? Don't see why you can't leave them there for another 7 months. Pulling them off at the same time you release the new box will be a great way of influencing the die hard HR10-250 owners to make the jump to the new box! Would make a great marketing ploy! 

Can just see the crawler on Directv:

"Order your new TiVo powered MPEG4 DVR today as your HR10-250's will lose your HD channels when the new MPEG4 TiVo is released"

------------------->>>>>>>Think about it Directv<<<<<<----------------


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## SleepyBob

TyroneShoes said:


> TV stations would love nothing more than to move to modern compression algorithms that would increase their capabilities. MPEG-2 is an albatross around their necks that might put them out of business at some point. Sure, it would obsolete every legacy ATSC tuner out there, but they really need to transition to a competitive future. Tall order. Outcome definitely in doubt.


What's your reasoning on this? I would have thought that moving to a new compression algorithm and having to spend more money on hardware would be the last thing a lot of TV stations would want. And it's not like viewers will stop watching their local NBC because it's being broadcast OTA in an MPEG-2 format.


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## cdharris

A CSR from DirecTV called me a couple of weeks ago to try to get me to do the equipment swap. I asked her when my HR10-250 would no longer be able to receive HD from DirecTV and she said September 6. I didn't think she knew what she was talking about and now am even more certain of that. I declined their offer of a swap and am going to take my time in purchasing and installing new equipment. I hope to be able to hold out until the new Tivo comes out.


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## shibby191

Sorry guys, they need to take the MPEG2 HD down to get the bandwidth. They have to get the locals off 72.5 and onto 110 and 119 and guess where that bandwidth comes from? Where the MPEG2 HD is. Among other things they need to do with the bandwidth.

Besides, saving 9 or so HD channels when you have over 100 just doesn't make a whole lot of sense for less then 50K users.


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## Cudahy

They've already got over a 100 HD channels in mpeg4. Keeping the 7 mpeg2 channels an extra 9 months to help the transition to the new HDtivo is no big problem.


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## AbMagFab

TyroneShoes said:


> While that's useful in predicting the end of SOME MPEG-2 on DTV and, I guess, ALL HD MPEG-2 on DTV, speaking as a broadcaster I wish someone would sunset ALL MPEG-2, period, as the thread title alludes, even though that would be the actual date when the HR10 finally becomes obsolete (and not before).
> 
> TV stations would love nothing more than to move to modern compression algorithms that would increase their capabilities. MPEG-2 is an albatross around their necks that might put them out of business at some point. Sure, it would obsolete every legacy ATSC tuner out there, but they really need to transition to a competitive future. Tall order. Outcome definitely in doubt.


Why would television stations possibly care about compression algorithms? And even moreso, why would they want something that would require a massive investment?

I understand why cable/satellite operators want to convert, since it effectively gives them more bandwidth to play with. But TV stations shouldn't care at all about bandwidth. So what else about changing compression algorithms helps them in any way (other than costing them money)?


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## TyroneShoes

AbMagFab said:


> Why would television stations possibly care about compression algorithms? And even moreso, why would they want something that would require a massive investment?
> 
> I understand why cable/satellite operators want to convert, since it effectively gives them more bandwidth to play with. But TV stations shouldn't care at all about bandwidth. So what else about changing compression algorithms helps them in any way (other than costing them money)?


I think you may be missing two key points:

1) TV stations couldn't give a rat's hat about compression algorithms _per se,_ but they do care about how much money they can make. That is fundamentally linked to how many commercials they can sell, how much product placement they can muster, and how successful they are to herding folks to their internet presence. And that is limited by how much programming they can offer and how much quality they can provide in that programming.

TV stations would be interested in better compression algorithms for the very same exact reason that DBS and cable are. When bandwidth is limited, better compression = more programming at better quality = more commercials and more people viewing them. It's really just that simple. Right now TV stations are limited to 1 HD signal + 2 SD signals, or possibly 4 SD signals. If they could up those numbers (because they sure aren't about to be licensed for any extended bandwidth), they could better compete with all the other media out there, media that CAN extend bandwidth or buy more bandwidth or gain bandwidth due to technological improvements.

TV stations care more about bandwidth than anyone. And that is probably because they have no option to get more and are stuck with 6 Mhz while competing media can acquire as much as they want, up to a point. Cable has up to 1.5 G of bandwidth, and they have clever ways of reusing it such as switched delivery. Your Slimline is capable of pulling in 5 sats, each with 500 MHz of bandwidth. The world is moving to VOD, which at some point will make local broadcasters a dim memory. Any option to conserve or use their tiny amount of bandwidth in ways that can increase the bottom line is like gold to TV broadcasters. It's their holy grail.

2) The cost for a TV station to change compression to something newer could be as little as 50K, which is about what they might spend on a new HD character generator. A single new camera or production switcher costs many more times that, and they make those sorts of investments regularly. It probably cost each station on average about 10 million to upgrade to the free HD you watch every day, so 50K is like beer money to them.

And that's just to TRANSMIT it. It costs a couple mill to convert to HD news, and another half a mil to convert to HD syndication and commercials. The licensing alone (not the program costs, which can be even higher PER EPISODE AIRED) for HD delivery of syndicated content to stations is into the high 5 figures. A TV station is a 100-500 million dollar business, with an overhead to match. They'd buy something that cost 50K but could allow them to increase their commercial load significantly in a heartbeat.

The cost would be in the change to receivers. Current, legacy receivers could not be upgraded, and I don't know about you, but I'm not about to spend ANOTHER 4 grand on a HDTV when the one I have still works fine and I never use the ATSC tuner in it anway.


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## TyroneShoes

catfish john said:


> While visiting my son over the weekend, he wanted to know:
> Is there a way to determine if a show is MPEG 2 or 4?


There is a definitive way. Select a channel (on a HR2x, of course) and pause it for 15 seconds. Now FFWDx1. If playback is smooth (30 fps), it is MPEG-2. If it is choppy, it's MPEG-4. This works on recordings as well, and is due to the nature of one vs. the other, in that I frames occur every 15 frames or so in MPEG-2, while they can be as far apart as 200 frames in MPEG-4.


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## AbMagFab

TyroneShoes said:


> I think you may be missing two key points:
> 
> 1) TV stations couldn't give a rat's hat about compression algorithms _per se,_ but they do care about how much money they can make. That is fundamentally linked to how many commercials they can sell, how much product placement they can muster, and how successful they are to herding folks to their internet presence. And that is limited by how much programming they can offer and how much quality they can provide in that programming.
> 
> TV stations would be interested in better compression algorithms for the very same exact reason that DBS and cable are. When bandwidth is limited, better compression = more programming at better quality = more commercials and more people viewing them. It's really just that simple. Right now TV stations are limited to 1 HD signal + 2 SD signals, or possibly 4 SD signals. If they could up those numbers (because they sure aren't about to be licensed for any extended bandwidth), they could better compete with all the other media out there, media that CAN extend bandwidth or buy more bandwidth or gain bandwidth due to technological improvements.
> 
> TV stations care more about bandwidth than anyone. And that is probably because they have no option to get more and are stuck with 6 Mhz while competing media can acquire as much as they want, up to a point. Cable has up to 1.5 G of bandwidth, and they have clever ways of reusing it such as switched delivery. Your Slimline is capable of pulling in 5 sats, each with 500 MHz of bandwidth. The world is moving to VOD, which at some point will make local broadcasters a dim memory. Any option to conserve or use their tiny amount of bandwidth in ways that can increase the bottom line is like gold to TV broadcasters. It's their holy grail.
> 
> 2) The cost for a TV station to change compression to something newer could be as little as 50K, which is about what they might spend on a new HD character generator. A single new camera or production switcher costs many more times that, and they make those sorts of investments regularly. It probably cost each station on average about 10 million to upgrade to the free HD you watch every day, so 50K is like beer money to them.
> 
> And that's just to TRANSMIT it. It costs a couple mill to convert to HD news, and another half a mil to convert to HD syndication and commercials. The licensing alone (not the program costs, which can be even higher PER EPISODE AIRED) for HD delivery of syndicated content to stations is into the high 5 figures. A TV station is a 100-500 million dollar business, with an overhead to match. They'd buy something that cost 50K but could allow them to increase their commercial load significantly in a heartbeat.
> 
> The cost would be in the change to receivers. Current, legacy receivers could not be upgraded, and I don't know about you, but I'm not about to spend ANOTHER 4 grand on a HDTV when the one I have still works fine and I never use the ATSC tuner in it anway.


To simplify, you're argument is that they want more subchannels?

I don't buy it for a second.

First - It would obsolete all current receivers. No TV station wants to be on the cutting edge where only a small number of people can receive their channel. That guts the entire advertising model.

Second - The existing stations can't even come close to filling the primary channel with content. There's no conceivable way they could fill even one subchannel with advertiser-friendly content, let alone more than 2. The current set of subchannels consists almost entirely of... weather. The same weather on 4 (or more) subchannels.

I you seriously believe that stations have an abundance of content just looking for an advertiser friendly outlet, and are only hindered by the 2-sub channel limit, then you must live in a different world than me!

(Come back and make this argument when we see many sub channels with actual content and real advertising, and then we can talk. I'm not sure even one fits that criteria right now, at least in my top-10 DMA.)


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## shibby191

TyroneShoes said:


> There is a definitive way. Select a channel (on a HR2x, of course) and pause it for 15 seconds. Now FFWDx1. If playback is smooth (30 fps), it is MPEG-2. If it is choppy, it's MPEG-4. This works on recordings as well, and is due to the nature of one vs. the other, in that I frames occur every 15 frames or so in MPEG-2, while they can be as far apart as 200 frames in MPEG-4.


Actually it's all by channel number. If it's in HD and it's not in the 70-90 range it's in MPEG4. Simple as that.


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## newsposter

shibby191 said:


> Actually it's all by channel number. If it's in HD and it's not in the 70-90 range it's in MPEG4. Simple as that.


are you sure that's a 100% true statement?


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## stevel

I think that statement is correct, though the "it's in HD" is critical. For example, if you view 501 (HBOE) on an HR10, it's MPEG2 SD, but on an HR2x it's MPEG4 HD. I don't know of any MPEG2 HD channels that aren't in the 70-90 range.


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## shibby191

newsposter said:


> are you sure that's a 100% true statement?


100% true. They converted the MPEG2 HD channels to MPEG4 over a month ago up at their "true" numbers. Tons of info on DBSTalk on it.

The 70-90 are still MPEG2 for those with HR10's and they will be shut down soon enough as posted in the first post.


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## newsposter

k well i turned off my premiums but was kinda shocked that no 500s were HD on the hdtivo as of this moment


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## stevel

No, and they won't be. The 500s HD channels are all MPEG4.


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## TyroneShoes

AbMagFab said:


> To simplify, you're argument is that they want more subchannels?
> 
> I don't buy it for a second.
> 
> First - It would obsolete all current receivers. No TV station wants to be on the cutting edge where only a small number of people can receive their channel. That guts the entire advertising model.
> 
> Second - The existing stations can't even come close to filling the primary channel with content. There's no conceivable way they could fill even one subchannel with advertiser-friendly content, let alone more than 2. The current set of subchannels consists almost entirely of... weather. The same weather on 4 (or more) subchannels.
> 
> I you seriously believe that stations have an abundance of content just looking for an advertiser friendly outlet, and are only hindered by the 2-sub channel limit, then you must live in a different world than me!
> 
> (Come back and make this argument when we see many sub channels with actual content and real advertising, and then we can talk. I'm not sure even one fits that criteria right now, at least in my top-10 DMA.)


You don't have to buy it for a nanosecond, but for you to armchair-quarterback imply that someone who goes to work everyday and eats, sleeps, lives, and breathes that environment 24/7 could be so far off base as to have a fantasy about what the real desires of broadcasters are is nothing less than insulting.

I guess it comes under the "no good deed goes unpunished" category, but I was only trying to respond to your question and give you an inside look that would actually answer your question. You're welcome.

If broadcasters were automatically allowed to switch to a new system that doubled their ability to carry content and distribute on an equal basis to what they do today, tomorrow, I can assure you that the programs to fill those channels would be available by the end of the month. Paramount and 20th TV and everybody else sells to the highest bidder or to multiple bidders, and if there was a vacuum, they would be knocking on broadcasters' doors fervently.

Its a chicken-egg thing. Subs have no content because they have no viewers because they have no content because they have no viewers. And they are on nobody's radar. Ask 100 people on the street and maybe 8 of them could even tell you what a subchannel is. If every station could double their ability and everyone understood it and had the capability of receiving it, content would be the least of their problems. DBS has 250 core channels and another 500 niche channels. Each and every one of them have PLENTY of content. The content is there if BOTH the infrastructure and the audience is there.

The question about legacy equipment has already been answered, and yes, that is WHY this is not going to happen and your saying so adds absolutely nothing new to the discussion. Been there, already discussed that.

But you are also completely wrong about it gutting the business model. Were it possible, it would be IN ADDITION to the current business model, which would remain intact. As an example, do you really think that companies that own duopolies (two or more stations in the same market) really worry about those stations competing with each other? Of course they don't. There are plenty of eyeballs, and the trick is to get as big a share of them as possible. If you own two slices of the pie, that can mean as much as twice the profit that a one-slicer gets.

I do live in a different world. The real world. It's quite obvious that you have a primitive and infantile understanding of the issues, so don't expect me to feel like I should defend my point of view beyond this to an audience totally unequipped to "get it". I just looked in the mirror, and it appears that I look like I really don't care if you accept the explanation or not. I'm out.


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## AbMagFab

TyroneShoes said:


> If broadcasters were automatically allowed to switch to a new system that doubled their ability to carry content and distribute on an equal basis to what they do today, tomorrow, I can assure you that the programs to fill those channels would be available by the end of the month. Paramount and 20th TV and everybody else sells to the highest bidder or to multiple bidders, and if there was a vacuum, they would be knocking on broadcasters' doors fervently.
> 
> Its a chicken-egg thing. Subs have no content because they have no viewers because they have no content because they have no viewers. And they are on nobody's radar. Ask 100 people on the street and maybe 8 of them could even tell you what a subchannel is. If every station could double their ability and everyone understood it and had the capability of receiving it, content would be the least of their problems. DBS has 250 core channels and another 500 niche channels. Each and every one of them have PLENTY of content. The content is there if BOTH the infrastructure and the audience is there.


You do realize you're contradicting yourself?

The broadcasters, right now, have two subchannels they can use for content. They generally aren't using them at all, and you agree.

So changing from MPEG-2 will do absolutely nothing to solve the "chicken and egg" issue you mention, it will just provide more space that won't be used.

Compression isn't the issue. It's:
a) Having content to fill the space; and 
b) Getting viewers

If you want to argue that the content will just appear, I completely disagree. They can't even come up with enough content to keep the main subchannels populated and alive. And again, there's nothing on the subchannels today. Saying there isn't any content because there are no viewers is fine, but neither issue has anything to do with bandwidth.

Again, if you're trying to say something else, you're not communicating it effectively. Can you try again?


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## kb7oeb

TV Stations need to only provide 1 SD mpeg2 feed to be legal, they can fill the rest of the datastream with whatever they want including mpeg4. Modern MPEG2 encoders allow KXII to run CBS and FOX in HD and MNTV in SD. TV stations won't go mpeg4 unless required and can you imagine the backlash from the people who bought new TVs and converters for the digital transition only to be told they are obsolete and need to upgrade again? 

DirecTV is converting to MPEG4 because they need the bandwidth and have no other options . Cable will probably be mpeg2 for a long time because they can free up much bandwidth with SDV and by removing analog without replacing receivers.


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## cat1v

AbMagFab said:


> To simplify, you're argument is that they want more subchannels?
> 
> I don't buy it for a second.
> 
> First - It would obsolete all current receivers. No TV station wants to be on the cutting edge where only a small number of people can receive their channel. That guts the entire advertising model.
> 
> Second - The existing stations can't even come close to filling the primary channel with content. There's no conceivable way they could fill even one subchannel with advertiser-friendly content, let alone more than 2. The current set of subchannels consists almost entirely of... weather. The same weather on 4 (or more) subchannels.
> 
> I you seriously believe that stations have an abundance of content just looking for an advertiser friendly outlet, and are only hindered by the 2-sub channel limit, then you must live in a different world than me!
> 
> (Come back and make this argument when we see many sub channels with actual content and real advertising, and then we can talk. I'm not sure even one fits that criteria right now, at least in my top-10 DMA.)


Here's an example of bandwidth use and making money with it. Before OTA digital Meridian, Ms. had ABC, CBS and NBC. All three are now HD(network programing not local), Channel 11, ABC, is meg4 HD OTA, but they added 11.2 FOX(SD) and 11.3 CW(SD) and they have stated that they have no plans to broadcast either FOX or CW in HD in the near or long term future. The up side is that there is FOX and CW in the area now but they have it locked up and may be a long time before we can get FOX or CW in HD. 
I won't say this is misuse of digital and the bandwidth it provides but it is a way to make money and not give the consumer what most want or will want, HD


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## RS4

TyroneShoes said:


> You don't have to buy it for a nanosecond, but for you to armchair-quarterback imply that someone who goes to work everyday and eats, sleeps, lives, and breathes that environment 24/7 could be so far off base as to have a fantasy about what the real desires of broadcasters are is nothing less than insulting.
> 
> I guess it comes under the "no good deed goes unpunished" category, but I was only trying to respond to your question and give you an inside look that would actually answer your question. You're welcome.
> 
> If broadcasters were automatically allowed to switch to a new system that doubled their ability to carry content and distribute on an equal basis to what they do today, tomorrow, I can assure you that the programs to fill those channels would be available by the end of the month. Paramount and 20th TV and everybody else sells to the highest bidder or to multiple bidders, and if there was a vacuum, they would be knocking on broadcasters' doors fervently.
> 
> Its a chicken-egg thing. Subs have no content because they have no viewers because they have no content because they have no viewers. And they are on nobody's radar. Ask 100 people on the street and maybe 8 of them could even tell you what a subchannel is. If every station could double their ability and everyone understood it and had the capability of receiving it, content would be the least of their problems. DBS has 250 core channels and another 500 niche channels. Each and every one of them have PLENTY of content. The content is there if BOTH the infrastructure and the audience is there.
> 
> The question about legacy equipment has already been answered, and yes, that is WHY this is not going to happen and your saying so adds absolutely nothing new to the discussion. Been there, already discussed that.
> 
> But you are also completely wrong about it gutting the business model. Were it possible, it would be IN ADDITION to the current business model, which would remain intact. As an example, do you really think that companies that own duopolies (two or more stations in the same market) really worry about those stations competing with each other? Of course they don't. There are plenty of eyeballs, and the trick is to get as big a share of them as possible. If you own two slices of the pie, that can mean as much as twice the profit that a one-slicer gets.
> 
> I do live in a different world. The real world. It's quite obvious that you have a primitive and infantile understanding of the issues, so don't expect me to feel like I should defend my point of view beyond this to an audience totally unequipped to "get it". I just looked in the mirror, and it appears that I look like I really don't care if you accept the explanation or not. I'm out.


I know I'm completely thrilled to see 4 sub channels of the local weather. :down: These broadcasters can sure find some exciting content - not!!

As far as I'm concerned local stations are a joke - the only actual programing most of them due are the news, and how much of that has any value to it - maybe 5 minutes out of the hour. The government (we the taxpayers) gave all of this stuff free to these folks, and most of them haven't any idea of what a local program is anymore - the proof is in the junk they put on these sub channels. Even the PBS stations all look a like.

Thank goodness for the cable and satellite video suppliers. If it weren't for these services, the viewing public would be in sad shape


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## TyroneShoes

AbMagFab said:


> You do realize you're contradicting yourself?
> 
> The broadcasters, right now, have two subchannels they can use for content. They generally aren't using them at all, and you agree.
> 
> So changing from MPEG-2 will do absolutely nothing to solve the "chicken and egg" issue you mention, it will just provide more space that won't be used.
> 
> Compression isn't the issue. It's:
> a) Having content to fill the space; and
> b) Getting viewers
> 
> If you want to argue that the content will just appear, I completely disagree. They can't even come up with enough content to keep the main subchannels populated and alive. And again, there's nothing on the subchannels today. Saying there isn't any content because there are no viewers is fine, but neither issue has anything to do with bandwidth.
> 
> Again, if you're trying to say something else, you're not communicating it effectively. Can you try again?


Maybe the problem is in the reading and comprehending. I can't apologize that it isn't a simple concept. I can only spell it out so much, you must take resposibility for understanding it. If you don't want to expend that minimal effort, that's fine, but that would also somewhat disqualify you from railing against my opinion.

And if you _would _read carefully, you would see that stating that broadcasters generally don't use subs and that content isn't readily available under the current status are not contradictory concepts. In fact, each condition perpetuates the other.

I agree that changing from MPEG-2 by itself is not the answer. Broadcasting is a closed system, and so is DTV. DTV had to change both the transmit (encode) protocol as well as the receive (decode) protocol to make the new system work, as well as mount a huge public relations effort to educate folks and put "150 HD channels" on their radar as a reality. Broadcasters can't change away from MPEG-2 in a vacuum and expect to have any viewers at all if they don't provide the STBs and the awareness that these channels exist. Currently, subs are more of a rumor to 95% of the public than they are a reality. Tnat says a lot less about bandwidth or compression algorithms than it does about ignorance, apathy, and lack of focus by the industry. But without a critical mass of ATSC STBs out there, you can hardly blame either broadcasters or viewers at this point.

But the limits of MPEG-2 compression are indeed the precise issues that physically prevents them from adding content, or creating a content vacuum, that I believe would be filled. Take away that limitation and (a very important point that I made that you somehow glossed over, provide a system to support increased bandwith and increased content end to end) and there would soon be more content, more viewers, more revenue.

You can hardly expect to compare the current sub situation, where there are not enough STBs out there to support them and the viewer mindset is such that they don't even know they even exist for the most part, to be a valid example of why a system with more availability for content that DID have a critical mass of STBs and DID have good viewer cognizance might not work. And NOT having that is indeed due to limited bandwidth, or more precisely, limited places to air content. And you can hardly assume that simply changing one aspect by itself, bandwidth, could have any chance of success without changing other aspects, such as the ability to receive MPEG-4 channels and the awareness that they are there by viewers. It would all have to fall into place together, or it would not work at all. But build it, and the content will come.

The addition of hundreds of cable/sat channels since the 1980's definitely created a content vacuum, and guess what? It's now completely filled, and had no problem staying completely filled as it grew. The creation of a system that could support 100-250 HD channels by DTV is exactly what caused most of those channels to launch in the first place, which is just one more example that nature abhors a vacuum. Done properly, a broadcasting system that had more ability to increase content, something now technically impossible or at the very least impractical, would work just fine, without a doubt.

But I've grown weary of arguing hypotheticals. We could just agree to disagree, but that seems like it just won't be enough for you, even though I have an inside view that might imply a certain amount of validity, and you don't.


----------



## TolloNodre

TyroneShoes said:


> Maybe the problem is in the reading and comprehending. I can't apologize that it isn't a simple concept. I can only spell it out so much, you must take resposibility for understanding it. If you don't want to expend that minimal effort, that's fine, but that would also somewhat disqualify you from railing against my opinion.


Wow.

That's a lot of verbiage (and vitriol) over a compression scheme.

You must be a lobbyist. If not, you should change careers.


----------



## TyroneShoes

TolloNodre said:


> Wow.
> 
> That's a lot of verbiage (and vitriol) over a compression scheme.
> 
> You must be a lobbyist. If not, you should change careers.


OK, let's take another approach. Let's say for the sake of a completely hypothetical example that you are a housepainter who has had a long and successful career and you innocently post on a website within an ongoing discussion about the subject your professional _opinion _that using an alkyd enamel for painting a front door entrance seems like a reasonable strategy. And then the next thing you know someone whose last adventure with paint of any sort or kind was eating fingerpaint in Kindergarten comes out and says "Alkyd enamel? You've got to be kidding! There is no way an alkyd enamel is appropriate for that job! What bizarre world are you living in, and just what kind of lousy housepainter are you, anyway?"

Most people would be somewhat motivated to defend themselves against such arrogantly-hostile ignorance. They might even try to carefully explain why they hold that opinion and attempt to bring Mr. d0uchebag into their thought pattern so he could benefit from their professional point of view regarding the subject, since he might seem to have not even an imbecilic understanding of why and seems to be in search of reasons, and also might seem to have a competing theory based on nothing. And if that approach fails to work at winning them over and the hostility continues, there might just be an understandable tendency for you to take an "F you, you're now on your own" attitude.

Case closed.


----------



## TolloNodre

TyroneShoes said:


> Most people would be somewhat motivated to defend themselves against such arrogantly-hostile ignorance.


"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides

You're better off ignoring them then - you're not going to change their mind and you just waste your own energy better spent on other things.


----------



## newsposter

hey i stopped reading the paragraphs a long time ago

can someone tell me who won and what it was about in one 100 character sentence or less


----------



## RS4

newsposter said:


> hey i stopped reading the paragraphs a long time ago
> 
> can someone tell me who won and what it was about in one 100 character sentence or less


Yup - we had the usual BS from a member who enjoys carrying on with an arrogant attitude, but got all bent out of shape when someone asks for clarification on one of his pontifications.


----------



## easy-e

Are we sure it is not today? I'm not getting 70-79 today.


----------



## AbMagFab

TyroneShoes said:


> I agree that changing from MPEG-2 by itself is not the answer.


Good, then you should have stopped there, as you agree with me! Would have been a lot shorter that way.



> But the limits of MPEG-2 compression are indeed the precise issues that physically prevents them from adding content, or creating a content vacuum, *that I believe would be filled.*


Ahh, the truth comes out - it's just your opinion, not some super-informed network truth (you should check out who you're talking with before making massive assumptions, my friend). So you must be some back-room engineer, the ones we all laugh at in the front office? Now it all makes sense. Are you also a furstrated actor?



> ...but that seems like it just won't be enough for you, even though I have an inside view that might imply a certain amount of validity, and you don't.


I think you might be too far inside. Come out of the basement and talk to some of us with windows once in a while, it might calm you down a little!


----------



## tucsonbill

incog-neato said:


> Just to clarify what I assumed to be obvious ..... the title of this thread should be:
> 
> Here is the official end dates of *HD* MPEG-2


Or perhaps more correctly: Here ARE the official end dates....


----------



## CrashHD

wow. your grammar are more gooder than his.


----------



## fasTLane

Good for another month. My latest bill says so.


----------



## incog-neato

You're more worser then my wife. 


tucsonbill said:


> Or perhaps more correctly: Here ARE the official end dates....


----------



## tucsonbill

incog-neato said:


> You're more worser then my wife.


a: Could be
b: Not worse than mine
c:Yes, but my grammar is more better
d: Could be the word you searched for was "than"


----------



## Nugget

RS4 said:


> Yup - we had the usual BS from a member who enjoys carrying on with an arrogant attitude, but got all bent out of shape when someone asks for clarification on one of his pontifications.


The best part about this summary is that both parties can walk away feeling as if they've been vindicated by it.


----------



## incog-neato

UPDATES: Check the screen crawls


----------



## Rich Peterson

Are these dates still pretty accurate? I'm especially interested in HBO. I want to use my HR10-250 for HBO HD as long as possible. Are we still looking at mid January cutoff?

Thanks.


----------



## stevel

There's been nothing announced to the contrary. I would assume that the date is as specified.


----------



## Cudahy

Since the new HDtivo could come as soon as July I wouldn't be surprised if they extended a few of them till then.


----------



## RBerryman

I have had a HR10-250 for a while and never added the HD package but was getting HBO and a couple of other channels in HD until I had an issue one day and had to call in and have them reset my TiVo function on another unit and they cut off all my HD. I recently added one of their HD units and got the new oval dish and am getting HD content on the new unit, but should I be getting any HD content on my HR10-250?


----------



## shibby191

Cudahy said:


> Since the new HDtivo could come as soon as July I wouldn't be surprised if they extended a few of them till then.


Tivo really has nothing to do with the MPEG2 HD shutdown. It has everything to do with reclaiming bandwidth which they need to badly do since their lease on 72.5 is up really soon and they need to get those SD locals off and on to the main sat fleet. It will also free up space to add more MPEG4 HD. I highly doubt they are all that concerned about less then 50K HR10 users, many of which have MPEG4 equipment already, which they have been offering free upgrades to forever.


----------



## TyroneShoes

shibby191 said:


> Tivo really has nothing to do with the MPEG2 HD shutdown. It has everything to do with reclaiming bandwidth which they need to badly do since their lease on 72.5 is up really soon and they need to get those SD locals off and on to the main sat fleet. It will also free up space to add more MPEG4 HD...


This may then explain why in a lot of markets they are abandoning the local SD stations and centercutting the HD feeds at 480, something they really don't need to do until 2-17-09. Even if they keep them at MPEG-2, the original quality of the HD is better than the NTSC and allows them to compress a bit more with equivalent results.


----------



## codespy

If they drop them before the new mpeg4 HDTiVo comes out, my wife and many others will divorce us. Is this enough to keep them going you at DTV????

In other words, if you drop the mpeg2HD, I will be forced to drop DTV, go back to rabbit ears, and not pay you $180 a month plus sports subscriptions.

Please don't inflict any more pain than necessary.


----------



## sjberra

Cudahy said:


> Since the new HDtivo could come as soon as July I wouldn't be surprised if they extended a few of them till then.


What year?


----------



## shibby191

codespy said:


> If they drop them before the new mpeg4 HDTiVo comes out, my wife and many others will divorce us. Is this enough to keep them going you at DTV????
> 
> In other words, if you drop the mpeg2HD, I will be forced to drop DTV, go back to rabbit ears, and not pay you $180 a month plus sports subscriptions.
> 
> Please don't inflict any more pain than necessary.


Perhaps you don't realize that the plan was to shut them down *months* ago but they had to delay because the MDU's (apartments) hadn't gotten all their dish upgrades done in time.

Understand this: There are very, very few HD subs left that don't have an MPEG4 receiver by now. This has been coming for years and it's finally here. It's not a surprise, and a new Tivo is just a very recent development, still vaporware. 

Besides, why are you paying $180 a month to get only 9 HD channels and none of those sports subscriptions in HD? Seems like you should have left a couple years ago, you've been wasting your money in my eyes.

Good luck.


----------



## dwynne

codespy said:


> If they drop them before the new mpeg4 HDTiVo comes out, my wife and many others will divorce us. Is this enough to keep them going you at DTV????
> 
> In other words, if you drop the mpeg2HD, I will be forced to drop DTV, go back to rabbit ears, and not pay you $180 a month plus sports subscriptions.


I am not going to go that far, but I will drop the HD package, HBO, and Showtime and just live with OTA HD and the basic stuff (for the non-HD Tivos in the house). By the time the new movies come out on the "premium channels" I have already seen them via Netflix - which costs less than the premiums and give me 12 or more new movies every month.

I have an HD cable Tivo as well and I would probably just pay the cable company for ESPN HD (and a few other channels) rather than give up my HD DTivos for the D* DVRs. Of course, I own mine and not just leasing or renting them and I and out of commitment as well so I could do whatever I wanted with them. I was an early series 1 Tivo adopter and an early 10-250 buyer as well and I do not plan on having a non-Tivo HD DVR if I can help it  .

It would be nice to know the exact numbers of the folks still using 10-250s, but I would bet it is more than some here would have you believe.

Dennis


----------



## shibby191

dwynne said:


> It would be nice to know the exact numbers of the folks still using 10-250s, but I would bet it is more than some here would have you believe.
> 
> Dennis


Last number I saw was around 100K and that was nearly a year ago. Probably less then 50K now if that. Remember, there were only 250K HR10-250 in use at their peak a few years ago. Contrast that to 4 million plus HR2x's in use (I know that number doesn't matter, but just some perspective). Other numbers: 18 million total subs, 9 million have HD and/or DVRs. The number of HR10-250s left is service is almost a rounding error.  But seriously, there just aren't that many left and never were all that many to begin with.


----------



## cramer

Given DTV has 16mil+ subscribers, and there were (far) less than 1mil HR10's ever built, the number of MPEG2 HD subscribers has always been small. However, they are/were all what DTV calls "class 4/5" customers -- meaning they pay DTV a lot of money and thus more valuable.

Bottom line... MPEG2 HD *will* go away. They don't want to continue leasing transponders on other sats. (esp. the 3 transponders on 110.)


----------



## dwynne

shibby191 said:


> The number of HR10-250s left is service is almost a rounding error.


As long as they let me keep my HDTivos in service recording OTA I would probably be OK for a while. I would miss ESPN in HD (NFL season only) and the NASA launches on HDNet, but not that much else. I would save a lot of money each month not having the extra channels as well - though the impact on D* may seem like a rounding error to THEM  . At some point, it might more sense to just hack the boxes and use them for OTA only and quit paying D* anything, but I would think that would be a long way down the road, if ever. Others in the family like a little more (SD) diversity in their programming so would prefer if I kept the basic programming for them.

Loving the Tivos and having upgraded them to larger drives makes me want to keep them. Having to potentially PAY to get a newer DVR and having to have it delivered and installed by someone I do not trust is another point against upgrading. If they shipped me free DVRs and a new dish and let me hook it up myself, then I might be willing to move off the Tivos and onto the new non-Tivo DVR. But to pay them and have to put up with their quality installers means it is not going to happen, I don't think.

Dennis


----------



## shibby191

dwynne said:


> As long as they let me keep my HDTivos in service recording OTA I would probably be OK for a while.


Certainly isn't going to be a problem with that. There is nothing "wrong" with the HDTivo's, they just simply can't decode MPEG4 nor see the new satellites. They will continue to function just fine for OTA and SD recording for years to come. After all, you can still use the old Ultimate TV DVRs and they haven't been sold for over 5 years and in fact you could still use receivers from the 90s if you want. If the receiver does what you want it to do, it will still keep on working just fine if you keep it activated.

There are many people that keep their HR10's in service after they get an HR2x upgrade and use the HR2x for the new HD and the HR10 for everything else.


----------



## shibby191

dwynne said:


> Loving the Tivos and having upgraded them to larger drives makes me want to keep them. Having to potentially PAY to get a newer DVR and having to have it delivered and installed by someone I do not trust is another point against upgrading. If they shipped me free DVRs and a new dish and let me hook it up myself, then I might be willing to move off the Tivos and onto the new non-Tivo DVR. But to pay them and have to put up with their quality installers means it is not going to happen, I don't think.
> 
> Dennis


Well, if you have an HR10 right now you can easily get a free upgrade (which includes the new dish and multiswitch if you need one). As for the installers, I don't let any touch my stuff, but then they don't need to. When I had my upgrade 2 years ago I let the guy do the dish while I did any extra cabling and took care of the switch upgrade and hooked up the receiver. Then all he needed to do was make sure we got a good signal, make sure the receiver was working and just needed me to sign the paperwork and sent him on his way. He basically did nothing with my setup other then replace the dish.


----------



## TyroneShoes

shibby191 said:


> Last number I saw was around 100K and that was nearly a year ago. Probably less then 50K now if that. Remember, there were only 250K HR10-250 in use at their peak a few years ago. Contrast that to 4 million plus HR2x's in use (I know that number doesn't matter, but just some perspective). Other numbers: 18 million total subs, 9 million have HD and/or DVRs. The number of HR10-250s left is service is almost a rounding error.  But seriously, there just aren't that many left and never were all that many to begin with.


All of your numbers sound about right. But the only number that means anything to DTV is how many phone calls they would get all at once should they pull the plug. If there are only 5000 HR10s out there and they all turn into boat anchors, that is still a very bad day for customer service. If they send a bullet each day to a group of only 50, that they could handle. I expect a ramped-up push to extinct the HR10 and other SD DirecTivos well before any plugs get pulled, and by that I mean a concentrated awareness program including channel crawls, emails, phone calls, etc.


----------



## shibby191

TyroneShoes said:


> All of your numbers sound about right. But the only number that means anything to DTV is how many phone calls they would get all at once should they pull the plug. If there are only 5000 HR10s out there and they all turn into boat anchors, that is still a very bad day for customer service. If they send a bullet each day to a group of only 50, that they could handle. I expect a ramped-up push to extinct the HR10 and other SD DirecTivos well before any plugs get pulled, and by that I mean a concentrated awareness program including channel crawls, emails, phone calls, etc.


All true but they aren't being turned into boat anchors. They will still work just fine, other then not getting those 7 or so HD channels. And DirecTV has been calling and begging the HR10 owners for over a year now letting them know about the change and offering free upgrades so this should be little surprise to anyone. I would also expect once the day comes you'll see crawls on the MPEG2 channels the month or two before shut down once again telling people they need a new receiver and to call for a free upgrade, just as they did on the LA DNS channels before they got converted to MPEG4.

Sure, some people may fall thru the cracks, won't understand or just plain ignore it and of course there will be people that will complain no matter what, but I doubt it'll be all that big of a number or that big of a deal. Shut down just a couple channels at at time and ramp up the CSRs for a week or two after that date to handle any extra calls. No biggy.


----------



## codespy

shibby191 said:


> ......Besides, why are you paying $180 a month to get only 9 HD channels and none of those sports subscriptions in HD? Seems like you should have left a couple years ago, you've been wasting your money in my eyes.
> 
> Good luck.


There was a little satire in my post, the wife HATES the HR20 line more than she hates me. If you look at my sig, I do get more than 7 HD channels.


----------



## TyroneShoes

shibby191 said:


> All true but they aren't being turned into boat anchors. They will still work just fine, other then not getting those 7 or so HD channels...


Ya think? 

I thought that it was obvious that we were speaking of the 7 HD channels. If those go missing it will light the phones up nearly as quickly as if the DVRs stop working all together. Have you never heard of a metaphor?


----------



## shibby191

TyroneShoes said:


> Ya think?
> 
> I thought that it was obvious that we were speaking of the 7 HD channels. If those go missing it will light the phones up nearly as quickly as if the DVRs stop working all together. Have you never heard of a metaphor?


Just making a clarification as there are plenty of people that are confused that their HR10 will no longer work at all, which of course is not the case.


----------



## BBURNES

incog-neato said:


> UPDATES:


Has there been an update to this mid-January schedule for the mpeg2 shutdown?


----------



## stevel

No updates. Assume schedule as stated.


----------



## incog-neato

Check the screen crawls.


BBURNES said:


> Has there been an update to this mid-January schedule for the mpeg2 shutdown?


----------



## HiDefGator

When counting the number of active HR10's you have to also keep in mind that many of them also have an HR20 active at the same time. Many of the active HR10's may already be assumed to be nothing more than a SD DVR with a really big hard drive.


----------



## restino

Just curious and confusing for me to understand after reading...

Are the HR10-250 HD channels 70+ going away on some 'given' date yet or no?


----------



## newsposter

yes the mpeg2 HD channels will go away..at some point, like you said.


----------



## shibby191

Yes, they are going away in January according the latest info (there is a thread in this forum with the dates). Could change of course but if it gets delayed due to MDU delays it would just be a few months at most.


----------



## stevel

shibby191 said:


> Yes, they are going away in January according the latest info (there is a thread in this forum with the dates).


That would be *this *very thread.


----------



## restino

So when they do end it, whever that is - which may not be until end of next year or later when they get the new DTV/Tivos out ? - can the HR10-250 units still record HD from OTA ?


----------



## BigBearf

> So when they do end it, whever that is - which may not be until end of next year or later when they get the new DTV/Tivos out ? - can the HR10-250 units still record HD from OTA ?


restino,
Yes, the HR10 will continue to record OTA HD and MPEG2 which will eventually be all SD.

I will keep my HR10s running OTA and MPEG2 along with some HR22s until the D* TivoHD receiver replaces my HR10s.

Hope this helps,
BigBearf


----------



## newsposter

keep in mind on days like today when I have ice issues, you cannot watch any new receiver's recorded shows but HDtivo will still get in OTA and you can watch all your recorded stuff.


----------



## restino

newsposter said:


> keep in mind on days like today when I have ice issues, you cannot watch any new receiver's recorded shows but HDtivo will still get in OTA and you can watch all your recorded stuff.


What does Ice have to do with recorded shows?


----------



## bpratt

newsposter said:


> keep in mind on days like today when I have ice issues, you cannot watch any new receiver's recorded shows but HDtivo will still get in OTA and you can watch all your recorded stuff.


This should solve your ice issues:

http://www.cyberestore.com/satellit...-kit-for-24-to-30-inch-elliptical-dishes.html


----------



## Dssturbo1

bpratt said:


> This should solve your ice issues:
> 
> http://www.cyberestore.com/satellit...-kit-for-24-to-30-inch-elliptical-dishes.html


damn, $130 bucks?? even if it worked thats some high profit rip off. and how does it improve rain fade by 75%??


----------



## newsposter

restino said:


> What does Ice have to do with recorded shows?


if ice/snow blocks your dish, you cannot watch prerecorded shows on the new directv dvrs. :down: (ie if you ONLY have them, you are out of luck regarding watching anything..which i think is utterly ridiculous)

on the HDtivos you can watch tv even with no signal :up:


----------



## restino

Directv HD DVRS such as HR20, 21, 22, 23 you cant watch recording programs if the sat has no view?

Are you kidding?


----------



## shibby191

restino said:


> Directv HD DVRS such as HR20, 21, 22, 23 you cant watch recording programs if the sat has no view?
> 
> Are you kidding?


Should be able to, they made that possible in a release over 2 years ago. Unless it's broke...

If it's rebooted though and has no signal then it might not be possible, I've never tried that.

As for ice: Warm water...super soaker...no problem.


----------



## catfish john

I received this email from DTv this morning. This should be the official cut off date January 16, 2009!

"As one of our most valued customers, we hope that you are now enjoying your local high-definition channels from DIRECTV. 

As you know, until recently, the only way you could receive HD feeds of ABC, NBC, CBS and/or FOX was to add our Distant Network Services (DNS) broadcast from Los Angeles or New York.

Now that we are rolling out local HD channels to more and more cities across the country, our network agreements require that we disconnect the HD DNS feeds from customers in cities where we offer local HD channels. 

What This Means to You: 
&#8226; Because your market area now receives local HD channels from DIRECTV, on January 16 we must remove the duplicate HD DNS feeds of ABC, NBC, CBS and/or FOX. These channels are found in the 80s or 390s ranges. 
&#8226; There is nothing you need to do. 
&#8226; There is no impact to your monthly bill. 

We wanted to let you know of this change in advance because you are one of our most important customers. Thank you for being a valued member of the DIRECTV family."

Sincerely,
DIRECTV Customer Service


----------



## newsposter

no signal means no pic..i guarantee it..i lived it


----------



## Crow159

newsposter said:


> no signal means no pic..i guarantee it..i lived it


I have an HR21-700 and when I lose signal, during the rare monsoon , I have NO PROBLEM watching previously recorded content. The problem was fixed many moons ago.


----------



## newsposter

Crow159 said:


> I have an HR21-700 and when I lose signal, during the rare monsoon , I have NO PROBLEM watching previously recorded content. The problem was fixed many moons ago.


so how do i get my machine fixed? i would have been happy if could watch prev programs when mine went out but couldnt!


----------



## Crow159

newsposter said:


> so how do i get my machine fixed? i would have been happy if could watch prev programs when mine went out but couldnt!


How long ago was this? With mine if I turn on the TV and I'm getting the 771 error that shows you're not receiving sat info, I can go to my playlist and select a show to watch. I know it used to be a problem but they have had software updates that fixed it.

I've done it within the last few weeks. I was watching a football game live and the downpour began. I lose the signal and I'm staring at a blank screen with just the error code on it. I watched something recorded and after about 15 minutes I switched back to the game.

Only thing I could suggest would be to go to DBSTalk and ask about the problem. I would be frustrated if mine worked like that too.


----------



## HiDefGator

Is it possible it doesn't work if you boot the box with no signal? I can see where it would work if you lost signal but not if the box had never seen a valid signal...

Just a guess. I've never tried this myself.


----------



## newsposter

Crow159 said:


> How long ago was this? With mine if I turn on the TV and I'm getting the 771 error that shows you're not receiving sat info, I can go to my playlist and select a show to watch. I know it used to be a problem but they have had software updates that fixed it.
> 
> I've done it within the last few weeks. I was watching a football game live and the downpour began. I lose the signal and I'm staring at a blank screen with just the error code on it. I watched something recorded and after about 15 minutes I switched back to the game.
> 
> Only thing I could suggest would be to go to DBSTalk and ask about the problem. I would be frustrated if mine worked like that too.


woke up a week ago to ice ..blocked signal happened overnight...couldnt get to the list at all or even setup to see what signals were? What's up with that? at least they should let you see you have zero signals!

i know the ultimate test is unplug the cables and see if i can watch but i never remember to do that when i'm home. I did post over there and no one has a definitive answer as to why mine behaved like that. But i must have rebooted over 10 times trying to get it work before a bit of signal was found and i got in to watch something.


----------



## ClubrhythmEnt

HiDefGator said:


> Is it possible it doesn't work if you boot the box with no signal? I can see where it would work if you lost signal but not if the box had never seen a valid signal...
> 
> Just a guess. I've never tried this myself.


When the Tivo software is working correctly the HR10-250 will eventually give up and say something along the lines of that it will continue to try to download satellite information and in the mean time you can access Now Playing if you re-start the recorder with no satellite connected. When the HR10 first came out there was a bug that caused the stupid "acquiring information from the satellite" text box to keep appearing at the bottom of all menus even if it had aquired a signal but they fixed that ages ago.

Not sure about this on any other DirecTivo...


----------



## incog-neato

This is not true.

If you lose all signal you can still watch what has been recorded as long as the sat cables remain connected to the IRD. If you remove the sat cables (and then reboot the receiver) you are correct, you can't even watch recorded programs. Even if you remove the cables you can still watch recorded programs as long as you don't reboot.



newsposter said:


> if ice/snow blocks your dish, you cannot watch prerecorded shows on the new directv dvrs. :down: (ie if you ONLY have them, you are out of luck regarding watching anything..which i think is utterly ridiculous)
> 
> on the HDtivos you can watch tv even with no signal :up:


----------



## newsposter

no one can tell me why i was unable to watch my stuff while there was ice on the dish then. UNLESS maybe i/it did reboot while was iced up. thats the only way i can think of it

and since everyone agrees a reboot with no signal will make you not be able to watch your shows, i can still call that a stupid function too


----------



## dwynne

Not to be rude, but I subscribed to this thread for MPEG-2 news. If you want to endlessly debate if you can watch records w/o a sat signal can you start a new thread to argue about it?

Thanks,
Dennis


----------



## codespy

dwynne said:


> Not to be rude, but I subscribed to this thread for MPEG-2 news. If you want to endlessly debate if you can watch records w/o a sat signal can you start a new thread to argue about it?
> 
> Thanks,
> Dennis


Thanks for Hi-jacking newsposter....you just got us all in trouble.


----------



## newsposter

codespy said:


> Thanks for Hi-jacking newsposter....you just got us all in trouble.


Oh it's ok. We can serve detention together. I never had it in school so it will be a new thing in life for me. I'm always looking for new experiences


----------



## smak

So I can still get HBO HD on my HR10-250 for the next few weeks?

-smak-


----------



## Todd

incog-neato said:


> ESPN, ESPN2, TNT, HD Net, HD Television
> 1/14/2009


So what's the latest on this since these channels didn't die last week?


----------



## shibby191

The only thing official is on channel 77 and many in the 70-80 range have scrollers on them telling people they are going away. April is the last unofficial date I've read for total shutdown.


----------



## incog-neato

Last I heard HDNET Movies, Universal HD & (I think) Showtime supposedly end of Feb. The rest still up in the air (no pun intended). They keep pushing it back but this is the info we get (all subject to change of course). I've heard absolutely nothing on the remaining 3 or 4 other then "sooner rather then later."


Todd said:


> So what's the latest on this since these channels didn't die last week?


----------



## dwynne

incog-neato said:


> Last I heard HDNET Movies, Universal HD & (I think) Showtime supposedly end of Feb. The rest still up in the air (no pun intended). They keep pushing it back but this is the info we get (all subject to change of course). I've heard absolutely nothing on the remaining 3 or 4 other then "sooner rather then later."


Sho HD and the others went dark on my HDTivos yesterday. Still have ESPN and 2, HBO, and a couple of more - for now. I will call in and drop Sho since I am not watching it in SD. There you go DirecTV - less money from me each month  .

Dennis


----------



## WaldorfSalad

dwynne said:


> Sho HD and the others went dark on my HDTivos yesterday. Still have ESPN and 2, HBO, and a couple of more - for now. I will call in and drop Sho since I am not watching it in SD. There you go DirecTV - less money from me each month  .
> 
> Dennis


I also cancelled Showtime yesterday, still have HBO though. When its HD version goes I'll likely cancel HBO and the HD package as well.

However, although it sucks to lose these HD channels, its not like DirecTV hasn't been warning us for a long time and offering to upgrade us to the new dish and DVR for free (though with a 2-year commitment). Its just a shame that the HR10-250 wouldn't carry through to MPEG4.


----------



## fasTLane

WaldorfSalad said:


> ...Its just a shame that the HR10-250 wouldn't carry through to MPEG4.


You said it. Totally stupid. :down:

I will hang in there until the new Tivo is offered and keep the Tivo I have until that day.


----------



## shibby191

fasTLane said:


> You said it. Totally stupid. :down:


It's not stupid. It just technically can't do MPEG4. It was produced and made long before MPEG4 was thought of being used for transmission. Now everyone is switching to MPEG4 (Dish and DirecTV) and even cable is looking at going MPEG4. Technology changes and old stuff gets left behind all the time.


----------



## dwynne

WaldorfSalad said:


> I also cancelled Showtime yesterday, still have HBO though. When its HD version goes I'll likely cancel HBO and the HD package as well.


I tried to drop SHO online but it would not do it - I am "grandfathered" in on the Total Choice Plus package and the online system will not let me make any changes without choosing a current package. Of course, the current packages have the same channels for more money (what a shock). I guess I will call in and see if some helpful CSR can drop SHO without changing anything else on my service.

Dennis


----------



## fasTLane

shibby191 said:


> It's not stupid. It just technically can't do MPEG4. It was produced and made long before MPEG4 was thought of being used for transmission. Now everyone is switching to MPEG4 (Dish and DirecTV) and even cable is looking at going MPEG4. Technology changes and old stuff gets left behind all the time.


Let me try again.

DirecTV pulling HD content from the current Tivo in the interim...*that *is stupid.


----------



## joed32

dwynne said:


> I tried to drop SHO online but it would not do it - I am "grandfathered" in on the Total Choice Plus package and the online system will not let me make any changes without choosing a current package. Of course, the current packages have the same channels for more money (what a shock). I guess I will call in and see if some helpful CSR can drop SHO without changing anything else on my service.
> 
> Dennis


Should be no problem at all.


----------



## newsposter

dwynne said:


> Sho HD and the others went dark on my HDTivos yesterday. Still have ESPN and 2, HBO, and a couple of more - for now. I will call in and drop Sho since I am not watching it in SD. There you go DirecTV - less money from me each month  .
> 
> Dennis


and for 'some people' this will lead them to torrents


----------



## shibby191

fasTLane said:


> Let me try again.
> 
> DirecTV pulling HD content from the current Tivo in the interim...*that *is stupid.


Ummm, shutting down MPEG2 has been the plan *long* before there was any announcement of a new Tivo (which is still very much up in the air and just vaporware at this point).

The plan was to shut down all the MPEG2 HD channels over a year ago but they got delayed due to MDU's not being on the ball and getting their dishes and switches updated. So if things had gone as planned they would have all been shut down end of 2007 while the new Tivo deal was announced just 6 months ago.


----------



## fasTLane

shibby191 said:


> which is still very much up in the air and just vaporware at this point.


Vaporware eh? If that be the case I shall certainly return the favor.


----------



## shibby191

fasTLane said:


> Vaporware eh? If that be the case I shall certainly return the favor.


It's vaporware since it doesn't exist. Once it's in public beta then people will believe. 

Tivo conference call next Monday, we'll see if they say anything other then "no comment" which is all they said at CES.


----------



## TyroneShoes

fasTLane said:


> Let me try again.
> 
> DirecTV pulling HD content from the current Tivo in the interim...*that *is stupid.


Is it stupid or does it just not fit your personal DVR timeline? DTV waited until there were very few HR10's left before making this change, which is anything but stupid, and might even be considered a wise business plan, even clever. In their universe of DVRs, the HR10 is probably now down to a low single-digit percentage. You can't change proprietary systems without pissing at least one person off. You might be that person.

Those who refuse to embrace the HR2x are only hurting themselves. They are the functional equivalent of the stubborn old man who sat on his porch with a shotgun rather than be removed from the path of Mt. St. Helens, which turned into a live volcano in 1980 and ended up burying him a mile deep in ash. He made an ash of himself. Adapt or die.


----------



## oversight

TyroneShoes said:


> TV stations would love nothing more than to move to modern compression algorithms that would increase their capabilities. MPEG-2 is an albatross around their necks that might put them out of business at some point. Sure, it would obsolete every legacy ATSC tuner out there, but they really need to transition to a competitive future. Tall order. Outcome definitely in doubt.


Interesting point about MPEG-2. Considering that NTSC was with us for 50 years, It is difficult to see OTA broadcasters being saddled with MPEG-2 for several decades.

I would guess at some point the FCC will modify the ATSC standard to allow other compression schemes, then requiring CE companies to incorporate in their gear on a go forward basis. I doubt it would take them long, or cost huge somes of money to to come up with the silicon.


----------



## fasTLane

TyroneShoes said:


> Is it stupid or does it just not fit your personal DVR timeline? DTV waited until there were very few HR10's left before making this change, which is anything but stupid, and might even be considered a wise business plan, even clever. In their universe of DVRs, the HR10 is probably now down to a low single-digit percentage. You can't change proprietary systems without pissing at least one person off. You might be that person.
> 
> Those who refuse to embrace the HR2x are only hurting themselves. They are the functional equivalent of the stubborn old man who sat on his porch with a shotgun rather than be removed from the path of Mt. St. Helens, which turned into a live volcano in 1980 and ended up burying him a mile deep in ash. He made an ash of himself. Adapt or die.


What a load. You can take your HR2x and stick it where the sun don't shine.


----------



## cramer

fasTLane said:


> DirecTV pulling HD content from the current Tivo in the interim...*that *is stupid.


Not at all. Ultimately, *we* aren't worth what they're paying ECHOSTAR for those 3 transponders. (we never were.)


----------



## TyroneShoes

oversight said:


> Interesting point about MPEG-2. Considering that NTSC was with us for 50 years, It is difficult to see OTA broadcasters being saddled with MPEG-2 for several decades.
> 
> I would guess at some point the FCC will modify the ATSC standard to allow other compression schemes, then requiring CE companies to incorporate in their gear on a go forward basis. I doubt it would take them long, or cost huge somes of money to to come up with the silicon.


There is a critical factor, and that is compatibility. When NTSC was approved, it was backward-compatible with monochrome TV of the era. This meant old B&W TVs were still viable. But NTSC was a far-inferior system to the system CBS was touting. There is a reason NBC had color early and CBS had it late (pride).

For a new algorithm to rise to the fore, it has to be backward-compatible, just like all HDTVs are backward-compatible with NTSC, and will be for some time. Figure 5 years before HDTVs can be made without such compatibility at a minimum, maybe never. MPEG-2 currently takes up more than half if not the lion's share of the 19.34 Mb/s that TV stations are allotted. Something new that incorporates compatibility with ATSC as it exists today is almost an impossibility, a thousand times harder than adding color to analog TV ever was. Regardless what they can do with the rest of the bandwidth, they will be required to use MPEG-2 for their main HD channel for decades, very likely.

The reason, you guessed it, compatibility. We just went through a conversion to a new system and the letting-go of NTSC is proving very painful. Look at how painful it has been for DTV and their customers to let go of MPEG-2, and that is a situation where the STB/tuner is proprietary and controlled completely by the vendor, not to mention that the government is not involved.

It will not be soon that TV stations can reclaim the bandwidth dedicated to MPEG-2 and replace it with something else. TV will be limited to one channel of HD for the foreseable future, which could destroy OTA broadcasting altogether.


----------



## TyroneShoes

:down:


fasTLane said:


> What a load. You can take your HR2x and stick it where the sun don't shine.


As spoken by the old guy with the shotgun on Mt. St. Helens who is about to be sucking volcanic ash for eternity.

I just looked in the mirror, and guess what, I look nothing like someone who gives two $#!+s what you might do. Just try to not let the doorknob hit you in....Oh never mind--it already has, apparently. Why should I expect a mature response to the situation or a measured evaluation of the options when being offered advice? Your true colors are shining though. The truth hurts, but most of us can endure the pain.

Wake up and smell the propane--as far as DTV is concerned, MPEG-2 is dead. It will be soon for all but OTA. Have fun with your 20 boring HD channels over there on cable, and don't forget to take a deep breath for FIOS, as you'll be holding it forever. We'll be pitying you over here while watching/recording 130+ HD channels (not).


----------



## fasTLane

TyroneShoes said:


> :down:As spoken by the old guy with the shotgun on Mt. St. Helens who is about to be sucking volcanic ash for eternity.
> 
> I just looked in the mirror, and guess what, I look nothing like someone who gives two $#!+s what you might do. Just try to not let the doorknob hit you in....Oh never mind--it already has, apparently. Why should I expect a mature response to the situation or a measured evaluation of the options when being offered advice? Your true colors are shining though. The truth hurts, but most of us can endure the pain.
> 
> Wake up and smell the propane--as far as DTV is concerned, MPEG-2 is dead. It will be soon for all but OTA. Have fun with your 20 boring HD channels over there on cable, and don't forget to take a deep breath for FIOS, as you'll be holding it forever. We'll be pitying you over here while watching/recording 130+ HD channels (not).


Astonishing....


----------



## fasTLane

shibby191 said:


> Ummm, shutting down MPEG2 has been the plan *long* before there was any announcement of a new Tivo (which is still very much up in the air and just vaporware at this point).


From Mr. Tom Rogers, President and CEO of TiVo;


> ..."Additionally, we continue to work on our new DIRECTV HD DVR. The new HD DVR will include popular TiVo broadband features, and will be immediately accessible to DIRECTVs entire national customer base on day-one of the launch. We have had a very successful history with DIRECTV and those subscribers are some of our most loyal customers. Now, as these customers look to upgrade from standard definition programming, they will have the option to choose the TiVo experience to help them truly get the most out of their high definition viewing experience."...


----------



## bigpuma

fasTLane said:


> From Mr. Tom Rogers, President and CEO of TiVo;


How does that quote from Tom Rogers in any way dispute what shibby191 said?


----------



## HiDefGator

bigpuma said:


> How does that quote from Tom Rogers in any way dispute what shibby191 said?


it sort of implies it isn't vaporware. although I guess until someone has actually seen one you could still call it that.


----------



## bigpuma

HiDefGator said:


> it sort of implies it isn't vaporware. although I guess until someone has actually seen one you could still call it that.


I would say it is vaporware until it starts beta testing.

That said I am glad that TiVo officially commented on the project. I look forward to seeing this new HD TiVo.


----------



## sjberra

HiDefGator said:


> it sort of implies it isn't vaporware. although I guess until someone has actually seen one you could still call it that.


Sorry it is vaporware until it actually hits the streets in a gold production release in quantity.

There are way to many documented cases of devices that was played up by the marketing and financial weasels of a company, a breadboarded together demo box shown, a few "beta tester" boxes let out and the project was terminated with absence of malace.

From missouri, until it is in the hands of actual paying customers in quantity then it is a actual product, until then it is vaporware.


----------



## fasTLane

More like vapor*hard*ware.

Besides, the real vapor of this long and drawn out story lies between the ears of one Rupert Murdoch. :down:


----------



## sjberra

fasTLane said:


> More like vapor*hard*ware.
> 
> Besides, the real vapor of this long and drawn out story lies between the ears of one Rupert Murdoch. :down:


hardware/software, who cares, is it still all blue smoke and mirrors until it is actually out in quantity and in joe sixpack end users hands

Different opinions are the life blood of debates as to whois at fault or not at fault, you have yours, I have mine.


----------



## shibby191

Yea, still vaporware. And all Tom said about it during the conference call was they hoped to focus on DirecTV by the end of the year. No idea what that means but sounds like they aren't working much on it now and hope to put more resources on it by the end of the year. I always said 1st Q 2010 and that appears to be on track because at this point it doesn't look good for end of the year. But hey, who knows.

Good news for Tivo lovers is that it's not canceled.


----------



## sluciani

Hardware's not an issue. It's likely gonna run on the same HR21/22/23 box design the DirecTV HR2x software runs on, very similar in design to the TiVoHD (and using the same CPU). 

If I'm right and it's a software port with no new hardware required, I'm guessing TiVO will throw enough bodies on it so that it really does ship in 2009. There are too many future revenues at stake for them not to make it their #1 priority.

Whether later part of this year is too little, too late to keep the remaining DirecTiVo subs from migrating to HR2x's or leaving DirecTV remains to be seen.

Just my .02. /steve


----------



## JimSpence

TyroneShoes said:


> There is a critical factor, and that is compatibility. When NTSC was approved, it was backward-compatible with monochrome TV of the era. This meant old B&W TVs were still viable. But NTSC was a far-inferior system to the system CBS was touting. There is a reason NBC had color early and CBS had it late (pride)....


NTSC had nothing to do with the advent of color TV. NTSC was established in 1941 for B/W TV. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ntsc. The standard was modified in 1953 for color. The CBS method was not compatible with the then NTSC standard, thus was not implemented. The CBS method may have been a better method but it was decided to not obsolete many thousand of B/W receivers still in use (many of which are still in use).

The fault I have with the current ATSC is that too many HD resolutions have been okayed. Why didn't they just say 1920 x 1080 is the standard?


----------



## stevel

There was a lot of push for 720p from the networks, ABC in particular. What we got was a compromise, though the multiple resolutions aren't really a big deal and only a few of them are actually used.


----------



## baggsey

As of this morning, the channel listings for the MPEG-2 HD channels TNTH (ch 75) and HDN (ch 79) only extend until 5pm on Tuesday 16th Feb 2010.

Does anyone have listings for these channels that extend further, or is this the shutdown of MPEG-2 versions of these channels?


----------



## codespy

In the past they've done the crawl on the bottom of the screen indicating the death of the channel.

I have not seen it yet.


----------



## Wil

baggsey said:


> As of this morning, the channel listings for the MPEG-2 HD channels TNTH (ch 75) and HDN (ch 79) only extend until 5pm on Tuesday 16th Feb 2010.
> 
> Does anyone have listings for these channels that extend further


No.

Once they're all gone, and DirecTV has officially abandoned the HR10-250, will discussion of hacking it for OTA digital recording be allowed here?


----------



## sluciani

Wil said:


> No.
> 
> Once they're all gone, and DirecTV has officially abandoned the HR10-250, will discussion of hacking it for OTA digital recording be allowed here?


Not sure what you mean by "abandoned". It will still be authorized and able to receive SD channels, so won't OTA continue to function?


----------



## stevel

Yes, OTA will continue to function along with SD channels. If you're suggesting that there is a method of bypassing the requirement for active DirecTV DVR service, then no, you won't find that discussed here. Indeed, I've yet to hear that it is possible or that it is discussed anywhere.


----------



## T1V0

Don't quote Dickens in my apartment!


----------



## BOBCAT

My HR20 guide on HDN stops on Tuesday, the 16th also. not sure why though. At the end of the listing it states "To Be Announced" for 4pm.


----------



## codespy

There is a problem with guide data going on even with other channels as we speak.

It's being discussed on other sites as well.

75 and 79 are not going away.....just yet.


----------



## BOBCAT

I hope that they will be able to leave the few HD channels that are left on the HR10-250 until the new TiVo box comes out. (PLEASE DIRECTV)! Then I will retire my HR10's and upgrade to the new TiVo box.


----------



## Wil

[deletion]
People bought HR10-250s to serve the particular purpose advertised. DirecTV has abandoned (or is soon to) fitness for the particular purpose they advertised.
[deletion]
No question they did a legal, reasonable business thing. But here we are. Is it ethically defensible to take this piece of salvage and get some small value out of it, namely OTA HighDef recording?

I don't know the answer, for sure.

In any case, as has been pointed out, it shouldn't be discussed here. It can't be done. It's not discussed anywhere else. The End.


----------



## BOBCAT

D* still hasn't updated the guide for HDN or TNTH. 
codespy, where are they discussing the problem? Can you post a link?


----------



## TyroneShoes

Wil said:


> ...they've offered a free replacement, of sorts (and some are happy with it and some correctly think it sucks) for the first unit, but many of us have multiple HR10-250s...


Not so. DTV regularly offers good customers free replacement of all HR10's. I heard it from them in January, and I heard it from them in March of 2009 and December of 2007. I declined all three times, as there still are a couple of features that make the HR10's combined with the HR2x's better than just HR10's or just HR2x's.

But if you are wrong once (and you were), it is highly likely that you can be wrong again (and you are). It appears that you have convinced yourself that your opinion is the only "correct" one and the only one that matters, which implies that anyone with a different opinion is "incorrect". I assure you, your opinion is only important to one person, and whether you think others' opinions are "correct" or not matters not to anyone other than you.

While not perfect (and neither has been any flavor of Tivo) the HR2x has been an unqualified resounding ginormous undeniable success, and there are tons of satisfied customers that can support that. It turns out that abandoning Tivo was the smart business decision for DTV. Of course there are some who will never let them out of the penalty box, but I think DTV really doesn't care that human nature has such a dark side, and are laughing all the way to the bank.


----------



## bigpuma

Wil said:


> People bought HR10-250s to serve the particular purpose advertised. DirecTV has abandoned (or is soon to) fitness for the particular purpose they advertised. If you want to substitute the word "crippled" for "abandoned" I have no problem. Yes, they've offered a free replacement, of sorts (and some are happy with it and some correctly think it sucks) for the first unit, but many of us have multiple HR10-250s.


I have gotten 2 free HD DVRs to replace my HR10s. The first one over 3 years ago. I am glad you have elected yourself the arbiter of correct opinions but I have been very happy with the DirecTV DVR. Both the TiVo and HR20 have their pros and cons.


----------



## codespy

BOBCAT said:


> D* still hasn't updated the guide for HDN or TNTH.
> codespy, where are they discussing the problem? Can you post a link?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=172759

I just checked at 10:12pm CST, all guide data on 72, 73, 75 and 79 up and running again.....whew.


----------



## BOBCAT

Thank You codespy.
Yes, guide data is back!


----------



## Wil

TyroneShoes said:


> you have convinced yourself that your opinion is the only "correct" one


I would like to apologize profusely if I indicated I believe the HR2x not to be a worthy successor to the HR10-250. I did not mean to offend.

That I might have given the impression I am intolerant to other opinions is so terrible I am ashamed for anything I might have said.

In our extended open household of family/friends of family, we respect all viewpoints over a wide spectrum. We have birthers, deniers, creationism-as-sciencers, former communists (they _claim_ former), even a few who shamefully admit to being Democrats.

Many are from mixed homes, HR10s and HR2xs (only for the HighDef content, obviously).

We have all tried very hard to come to some kind of understanding and acceptance of those strange people whom we've heard stories of, who apparently find some merit in the HR2x. We have held mock debates where we've tried to support the given that an HR2x aficionado might possibly have an IQ higher than 27.

But we can't make it work. The world may be flat, we're willing to grant that as a faint possibility. There may be exactly 317 angels dancing on the head of a pin; we have no problem at all with that as a possibility. But the notion that an organism minimally-qualified-as-a-human-being might find the HR2x to be a tolerable piece of gear? No; it does not compute.

But I am committed to try to become more tolerant of such idiocy. Sensitivity training is underway as we speak. If it has not quite taken hold, and I have offended you, again I apologize.


----------



## samo

Wil said:


> I would like to apologize profusely if I indicated I believe the HR2x not to be a worthy successor to the HR10-250. I did not mean to offend.
> 
> That I might have given the impression I am intolerant to other opinions is so terrible I am ashamed for anything I might have said.
> 
> In our extended open household of family/friends of family, we respect all viewpoints over a wide spectrum. We have birthers, deniers, creationism-as-sciencers, former communists (they _claim_ former), even a few who shamefully admit to being Democrats.
> 
> Many are from mixed homes, HR10s and HR2xs (only for the HighDef content, obviously).
> 
> We have all tried very hard to come to some kind of understanding and acceptance of those strange people whom we've heard stories of, who apparently find some merit in the HR2x. We have held mock debates where we've tried to support the given that an HR2x aficionado might possibly have an IQ higher than 27.
> 
> But we can't make it work. The world may be flat, we're willing to grant that as a faint possibility. There may be exactly 317 angels dancing on the head of a pin; we have no problem at all with that as a possibility. But the notion that an organism minimally-qualified-as-a-human-being might find the HR2x to be a tolerable piece of gear? No; it does not compute.
> 
> But I am committed to try to become more tolerant of such idiocy. Sensitivity training is underway as we speak. If it has not quite taken hold, and I have offended you, again I apologize.


You may think that you are smart and articulate. You may even think that you have a sense of humor. But you are incorrect again.


----------



## Wil

samo said:


> You may think that you are smart


No. I used to aspire to average, but that was many lost brain cells ago.


samo said:


> and articulate


I can spell reasonably well; otherwise, not so much.


samo said:


> and that you have a sense of humor


Yes, I do.


----------



## fasTLane

I did not want the Tivo workaround either. Plain and simple.


----------



## TyroneShoes

Oh no, you _di-n't_



Won't said:


> I would like to apologize profusely...
> 
> ...even a few who shamefully admit to being Democrats...
> 
> ...We have held mock debates where we've tried to support the given that an HR2x aficionado might possibly have an IQ higher than 27...
> 
> ...But the notion that an organism minimally-qualified-as-a-human-being might find the HR2x to be a tolerable piece of gear?...
> 
> ...But I am committed to try to become more tolerant of such idiocy...
> 
> ...If it has not quite taken hold, and I have offended you, again I apologize.


Isn't it always sad when cousins marry?

Apologizing twice doesn't add up to once if it is drenched in cheap, smelly sarcasm, which is the lowest form of humor (meaning you probably have the lowest form of a cheap, smelly sense of humor), especially since you use that as an excuse to re-offend serially and with intent (and apparent extreme prejudice).

And congrats, not only for your priceless contribution to the Tivo Community and for visionary deep thinkers everywhere, but I think you may have offended more niche groups in one small post than I have in a lifetime of posting (and that's really saying something ). Bravo! Lucky for you, you get to hide behind your keyboard. Very, very lucky for you, not to mention supremely courageous for someone so ethically and morally challenged. If this is how you blunder though life I hope for your sake that you are over-paying someone with double-indemnity life insurance to start your car for you.

Expect no problem from me, of course; I'm _never _offended (well, hardly ever) when a battler in a battle of wits starts said battle completely out of ammunition _(but if Samo could reach through his monitor...)._

And, BTW, I know of at least one "afficionado" in my household _(Ahem!) _who's measured IQ is actually 134 points _*higher than *_the number you tossed off (which is actually one point higher than Albert Einstein). In the words of Governor Spitzer, "bite me".


----------



## T1V0

TyroneShoes said:


> And, BTW, I know of at least one "afficionado" in my household _(Ahem!) _*who's* measured IQ is actually 134 points _*higher than *_the number you tossed off (which is actually one point higher than Albert Einstein.


you typo'd in a post bragging of your iq (higher than einstein no less)

rotflmfao


----------



## Wil

TyroneShoes said:


> cheap, smelly sarcasm, which is the lowest form of humor


Some would say puns, but I would agree with you. Where would you place satire on the scale? Personally, I would rate intentional use of irony pretty close to the bottom, though unintentional irony is about the funniest thing on the planet.



TyroneShoes said:


> And, BTW, I know of at least one "afficionado" in my household _(Ahem!) _who's measured IQ is actually 134 points _*higher than *_the number you tossed off (which is actually one point higher than Albert Einstein). In the words of Governor Spitzer, "bite me".


I'm surprised that such a bright aficionado would put up with you being in the same household.

At least two people have remarked here that they have gotten multiple free HR2x's to replace their HR10-250s. Our local experience has been that only one per account is free, but I accept the correction gratefully.


----------



## BOBCAT

Just an FYI to anyone that had a season pass on any of the channels that were missing the guide info, you will need to reset the season pass. All of my programs didn't record today on those channels.
I checked the upcoming programs, and none were set to record. I deleted the season pass then put the season pass back on my program's and they are all checked to record now.


----------



## jsarich

So, I just got a call from DTV that beginning march 1st, they will have completed the conversion of their HD channels to the new system. They said that all channels in the 70's will be turned off at this time, and for me to either press "1" or call back to talk to someone and reference a "Free HDDVR Upgrade".

Looks like no more HD ESPN anymore for my HR10-250.

What the heck is the hold up on the new Tivo receiver. I don't want to lock into a 2 year thing with the DTV DVR when the new Tivo is right around the corner.

Anyone else get the same call?


----------



## parzec

shibby191 said:


> Sorry guys, they need to take the MPEG2 HD down to get the bandwidth. They have to get the locals off 72.5 and onto 110 and 119 and guess where that bandwidth comes from? Where the MPEG2 HD is. Among other things they need to do with the bandwidth.
> 
> Besides, saving 9 or so HD channels when you have over 100 just doesn't make a whole lot of sense for less then 50K users.


Wow! I didn't know DirecTV was so bit-starved...when is the next satellite launch ?


----------



## fasTLane

jsarich said:


> So, I just got a call from DTV that beginning march 1st, they will have completed the conversion of their HD channels to the new system. They said that all channels in the 70's will be turned off at this time, and for me to either press "1" or call back to talk to someone and reference a "Free HDDVR Upgrade".
> 
> Looks like no more HD ESPN anymore for my HR10-250.
> 
> What the heck is the hold up on the new Tivo receiver. I don't want to lock into a 2 year thing with the DTV DVR when the new Tivo is right around the corner.


If this were true, then why does next months bill show a charge for the HD package?

UPDATE: Just found out that the correct date is March 31 and not March 1.

I will save 10 bucks a month after that happens.


----------



## stevel

parzec said:


> Wow! I didn't know DirecTV was so bit-starved...when is the next satellite launch ?


DirecTV 12 launched in January, is doing in-orbit testing now. Should go live in March or April.


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## jsarich

Yup, sorry about that. March 31st, not the 1st. the voicemail was garbled and I heard first.

But regardless...it is true.


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## codespy

Time to load up as much programming as possible on the HR10's before deactivation. Good thing is you can watch them after receiver deactivated unlike the DirecTV DVR's.


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## KDX

WHAT?!?! They are shutting down the 70's at the end of next month? Does anyone have a link to an official mention of it on the DirtecTV site? I am curious to see how they worded it.

codespy, which DirecTV DVR will not display shows after it is deactivated??

Boy, this morning is starting off bad. :-(


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## stevel

KDX, the non-TiVo DirecTV DVRs, such as the HR23, will not let you play recordings if you don't have service, but the deactivation of the 70s has no direct effect on this, unless you decide to cancel your service.

The EOL of the 70s has been announced many times, and it still hasn't happened. I am sure it will, eventually, but I'm not putting money on any specific date.


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## BOBCAT

Some time ago, I was told that the 70's channels would be up until the new TiVo box came out. but this was before all of the delays in releasing it. 
If D* cuts off the 70's and leaves me "high and Dry" with my HR10, will see what att Uverse has to offer and make the move. 
I have lost faith in D* intent to release the new TiVo box. When I call D* CSA's and retention, they act like Sergeant Schultz of Hogans Heroes and say "I know nothing!"


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## fasTLane

BOBCAT said:


> I have lost faith in D* intent to release the new TiVo box. When I call D* CSA's and retention, they act like Sergeant Schultz of Hogans Heroes and say "I know nothing!"


Same here. The expert that answered my call seemed oblivious to the fact that Direct *ever *offered a Tivo.


----------



## codespy

KDX said:


> WHAT?!?! They are shutting down the 70's at the end of next month? Does anyone have a link to an official mention of it on the DirtecTV site? I am curious to see how they worded it.
> 
> codespy, which DirecTV DVR will not display shows after it is deactivated??
> 
> Boy, this morning is starting off bad. :-(


Not on the website yet, but I found it out here:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2367791&postcount=10

Also, none of the DirecTV branded DVR's (not only HR23) let you playback recordings after deactivation. Only the DirecTiVo's allow this.


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## stevel

Ok - if satelliteracer says it, I believe it. You won't get notified if you have an HD MPEG4 box on your account.


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## shibby191

BOBCAT said:


> Some time ago, I was told that the 70's channels would be up until the new TiVo box came out. but this was before all of the delays in releasing it.
> If D* cuts off the 70's and leaves me "high and Dry" with my HR10, will see what att Uverse has to offer and make the move.
> I have lost faith in D* intent to release the new TiVo box. When I call D* CSA's and retention, they act like Sergeant Schultz of Hogans Heroes and say "I know nothing!"


Funny, you've waited all this time to avoid the DirecTV DVRs denying yourself 100+ HD channels for going on 4 years so instead you'll go to Uverse and their crappy DVR and only 2 HD streams max at a time? LOL. Good luck!

Not sure why people torture themselves like this. It records and plays back. Wow. I don't need the Tivo guy to do that.


----------



## Wil

shibby191 said:


> denying yourself 100+ HD channels for going on 4 years


I still can't get anyone in our household to use the HR20 consistently, for anything really, except occasional live sporting events. Oh, lots of football, in season, we all use the hell out of it then. I had hoped that at some point it might replace a Tivo Series 3, but that's apparently not going to happen. Hundreds of HiDef channels? I've never counted, but in terms of interest there doesn't seem to be much there.

The preferences, in order, moving down the list depending on the availability of content, seem to be:

The HR10-250 (including all OTA HiDef, most SD, and the household old movie ty library).
Tivo Series 3 (including Netflix OD,the household mpeg2/4/.tivo libraries)
VLC through the mini computer.
PLEX through the mini computer (Hulu and all the other onlines)
DVD PLayer through the mini computer (both actual disks and media files).
The BR/VHS combo (hardly ever).
The HR20/700 (sports only).

You can try to push the HR2x; I have because I'd like to simplify; but it's just a kludgey, awkward piece of gear when they've got smoother alternatives at hand.


----------



## fasTLane

shibby191 said:


> ..100+ HD channels for going on 4 years...


*LOL*


----------



## codespy

shibby191 said:


> Wow. I don't need the Tivo guy to do that.


No disrespect, but I don't know why you stay on a TiVo forum with your position on DirecTV vs. TiVo DVR's.


----------



## shibby191

codespy said:


> No disrespect, but I don't know why you stay on a TiVo forum with your position on DirecTV vs. TiVo DVR's.


LOL. When was the last time I posted? 2-3 months ago?


----------



## KDX

stevel said:


> KDX, the non-TiVo DirecTV DVRs, such as the HR23, will not let you play recordings if you don't have service, but the deactivation of the 70s has no direct effect on this, unless you decide to cancel your service.
> 
> The EOL of the 70s has been announced many times, and it still hasn't happened. I am sure it will, eventually, but I'm not putting money on any specific date.


stevel, thanks for this and your many other helpful posts.

I wasn't thinking that the status of the 70's would effect the HRxx DVR's. No problem on that. I have a couple of HR10-250's. One has been connected to an SD TV until a few weeks ago. I just bought a 2nd HD TV. I was just starting to enjoy the 70's HD and OTA HD in the second room. I was surprised to hear they were doing away with the 70's. I have one leased HR20-100S on one TV and have recently purchased an owned HR20-100S to go on the 2nd TV (one HR10-250 and one HR20-100S per TV). I am just waiting on the access card to come in the mail. If the 70's are shut down, it makes me wonder if the HR10-250's would really be needed any more.

On the HR20-100S I just bought, I was thinking I could watch the shows if I ever didn't have DirecTV service, or went to the hopefully forthcoming HD DirecTV Tivo and deactivated it. I have a couple of deactivated Samsung Series 2 DirecTivo's that I sometimes watch old recorded shows on. I had blindly assumed I would be able to do the same if I ever deactivated this new HR20-100S. I was planning on buying a 2TB hard drive next week for it, but now I am not so sure.

Thank you again for the reply.


----------



## sjberra

BOBCAT said:


> Some time ago, I was told that the 70's channels would be up until the new TiVo box came out. but this was before all of the delays in releasing it.
> If D* cuts off the 70's and leaves me "high and Dry" with my HR10, will see what att Uverse has to offer and make the move.
> I have lost faith in D* intent to release the new TiVo box. When I call D* CSA's and retention, they act like Sergeant Schultz of Hogans Heroes and say "I know nothing!"


words of caution with uverse - tried it for 60 days to get the rebates and came right back to Directv

1. 2HD/2SD streams if you are lucky enough to be within range of that profile (3HD/2SD) is being tested but the range limitations are stricter. If yoiu are watching/recording 2 HD live streams the 3rd set will only get a SD stream
2. One DVR for the whole house - depending on your region you will get a 250GB drive Motorola or a 320 GB Cisco unit
3. Not ability to add additional disk space, no plans to add it in the forseeable future
3. The additional recievers on the TV's do not have the ability to pause live TV
4. at least for my familty, the learning curve on the DVR's was fairly steep and conter intuitive.
5. No TIVO at all


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## shibby191

KDX said:


> I was surprised to hear they were doing away with the 70's. I have one leased HR20-100S on one TV and have recently purchased an owned HR20-100S to go on the 2nd TV (one HR10-250 and one HR20-100S per TV). I am just waiting on the access card to come in the mail. If the 70's are shut down, it makes me wonder if the HR10-250's would really be needed any more.


Actually it's nothing new. The 70s (they are the legacy MPEG2 HD channels) were supposed to be shut down over 2 years ago. Half of them already have gone dark. The only thing that has really delayed it is the fact that the MDU's (apartment buildings and condos) hadn't gotten their dishes upgraded for MPEG4 and the latest thing is a delay in getting the newer switches needed. The delay has nothing to do with the HR10-250s, there are so few of them left and very few households that don't have at least one HR2x that it's not an issue. The number of people that "suffer" along with just 4-5 HD channels vs. dozens is so small that DirecTV certainly doesn't care.

They shut down LA DNS and about half the 70s over a year ago. The delay on the rest has been mostly getting New York MDU's on board and probably just waiting until D12 goes live in a couple months and then shut it all down at once.

But yea, shoulda lost the 70's 2-3 years ago if not for the MDU delays. 

As for your HR10-250s, even when the 70s are gone they still make great OTA HD DVRs. So if all you need on a particular TV is the locals and you can get OTA then they will still work just fine for that as well as SD recording. No reason to get rid of them unless they no longer fill your needs. The only reason why the HR10's can't get the HD from DirecTV anymore is simply the fact it can't decode MPEG4 and it can't see the new satellite slots. Back when the HR10 was first coming out I knew about MPEG4 coming down the pike so I never plopped down $1000 for one and just waited. I wasn't about to pay that much for something that was only good for a couple years at best.


----------



## codespy

KDX said:


> .............On the HR20-100S I just bought, I was thinking I could watch the shows if I ever didn't have DirecTV service, or went to the hopefully forthcoming HD DirecTV Tivo and deactivated it. I have a couple of deactivated Samsung Series 2 DirecTivo's that I sometimes watch old recorded shows on. I had blindly assumed I would be able to do the same if I ever deactivated this new HR20-100S. I was planning on buying a 2TB hard drive next week for it, but now I am not so sure.
> Thank you again for the reply.


The HR20, 21, and 23's (along with R15, 16 and other non TiVo DVR's) once deactivated do not let you play back recordings period. The HR20-100 will be useful for years to come, and gets all the updates like the current HR23. The launch of the HR24 looks near, but have no information on that unit's features yet.


----------



## BOBCAT

Hi sbjerra,
Ok, fine. Haven't looked into what att had to offer yet. They say in their adds that you can record 4 programs at the same time. maybe they have a new DVR out. 
Comcast is another option. They have come a long way sense I subscribed to them many years ago, but they seem to raise their rates every time you turn around.
My third option is to reactivate my "C" band satellite system that has sat dormant for many years. my 13' dish sits there catching leaves and bird droppings. Will have to get the pressure cleaner out, clean it up and pick up a S3 TiVo.

My post was made in the heat of the moment. D* lack of responsibility to it's customers to release it's replacement TiVo based DVR in a timely manor before they turned down the last few HD channels that the HR10 owners had just got me mad.
I'm beginning to think that D* announced the TiVo box just to keep the HR10 owners hanging on. After all its all about $$ and another 2 years of revenue from the die hard HR10 owners is a good chunk of change.
I hate the thought of having to plug in the HR20's for the few programs that I watch. Was looking forward to just pulling them out and dumping them at the locial "Ewaste" station when the new TiVo DVR came out.
Maybe D* will offer a standard def version of HDN and HDTH for the HR10..... NOT! They are not that sensitive to their customers to think of something like that.
Oh well


----------



## litzdog911

BOBCAT said:


> ...
> 
> My post was made in the heat of the moment. D* lack of responsibility to it's customers to release it's replacement TiVo based DVR in a timely manor before they turned down the last few HD channels that the HR10 owners had just got me mad.
> I'm beginning to think that D* announced the TiVo box just to keep the HR10 owners hanging on. ...


It's really Tivo's announcement, and their product. I don't think it's fair to heap all of the "responsibility" on DirecTV. Tivo has been notoriously late with just about every product they've ever announced. Had Tivo's original announcement timeframe been met, we would have that new product by now.


----------



## bigpuma

codespy said:


> No disrespect, but I don't know why you stay on a TiVo forum with your position on DirecTV vs. TiVo DVR's.


So the only people who should post here are those that think TiVos are better? How is that useful to people trying to choose what product to buy. It's not like this site is owned by TiVo. You already get a heavily biased opinion here, it is good IMO to have some individuals balance that out.


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## bigpuma

Wil said:


> I still can't get anyone in our household to use the HR20 consistently, for anything really, except occasional live sporting events.


My wife, who may be one of the least technology inclined individuals, picked up the HR20 immediately when we got it over 3 1/2 years ago. She picked it up faster than our original DirecTiVo, granted that was her first DVR ever.


----------



## bigpuma

BOBCAT said:


> Hi sbjerra,
> Ok, fine. Haven't looked into what att had to offer yet. They say in their adds that you can record 4 programs at the same time.


Yes, 4 programs, 2 in HD and 2 in SD. That is what he meant.


----------



## BOBCAT

Thanks Litzdog911, I stand corrected.
Still, D* could have applied pressure on TiVo to meet their commitment instead of delays on top of delays.


----------



## stevel

It's really DirecTV's product and is theirs to announce, though perhaps they may allow TiVo to show it. I know in the past TiVoPony said that he got his wrist slapped for saying ANYTHING about DirecTV TiVos.


----------



## BOBCAT

One other thing....
Whats the big deal about redesigning the electronics to change the basic design of the HR10 from mpeg2 to mpeg4? all of the block components are there. The series 3 records the mpeg 4 stream now, just a mater of putting a D* front end receiver on and upgrading the TiVo software. I wouldn't think that it would take 2 years for all of that. Yes I know that there are production issues, like designing and laying out the PC board, designing the VLSI chips if any custom chips are made, but would think with the S3, off the shelf chips would be compatible. Then building the prototype, testing. But by now, you would think that they would have them ready to release a limited number for beta testing.


----------



## sjberra

BOBCAT said:


> Hi sbjerra,
> Ok, fine. Haven't looked into what att had to offer yet. They say in their adds that you can record 4 programs at the same time. maybe they have a new DVR out.
> Comcast is another option. They have come a long way sense I subscribed to them many years ago, but they seem to raise their rates every time you turn around.
> My third option is to reactivate my "C" band satellite system that has sat dormant for many years. my 13' dish sits there catching leaves and bird droppings. Will have to get the pressure cleaner out, clean it up and pick up a S3 TiVo.
> 
> My post was made in the heat of the moment. D* lack of responsibility to it's customers to release it's replacement TiVo based DVR in a timely manor before they turned down the last few HD channels that the HR10 owners had just got me mad.
> I'm beginning to think that D* announced the TiVo box just to keep the HR10 owners hanging on. After all its all about $$ and another 2 years of revenue from the die hard HR10 owners is a good chunk of change.
> I hate the thought of having to plug in the HR20's for the few programs that I watch. Was looking forward to just pulling them out and dumping them at the locial "Ewaste" station when the new TiVo DVR came out.
> Maybe D* will offer a standard def version of HDN and HDTH for the HR10..... NOT! They are not that sensitive to their customers to think of something like that.
> Oh well


I can only go by personal expierence, just jave the TV portion of it disconnected 5 days ago, and I had the 32/5 profile which would allow for 3HD/2SD when the service was rolled out.

You may be able to record 4 hows at once (if you have the correct profile) but 2 will be HD and 2 will be SD and no one else can watch anything outside of hat was being recorded. Definately DO NOT believe what their sales weasels tell you, 90 percent of it is wrong. Would suggest you hit DSLReports, the Uverse users forums and the ATT Uverse forum sites to get the truth


----------



## shibby191

BOBCAT said:


> One other thing....
> Whats the big deal about redesigning the electronics to change the basic design of the HR10 from mpeg2 to mpeg4? all of the block components are there. The series 3 records the mpeg 4 stream now, just a mater of putting a D* front end receiver on and upgrading the TiVo software. I wouldn't think that it would take 2 years for all of that. Yes I know that there are production issues, like designing and laying out the PC board, designing the VLSI chips if any custom chips are made, but would think with the S3, off the shelf chips would be compatible. Then building the prototype, testing. But by now, you would think that they would have them ready to release a limited number for beta testing.


Nobody really knows why Tivo is having such a hard time with this. Especially since the chips in the HR20 are the same as in the Tivo HD stand alone box. But then people forget that Tivo has never delivered a product on time. Remember the delays around the HR10-250 release? And people back then were saying "all they got to do is take the SD DirecTivo and add in HD tuners". Obviously none of this is as simple as we make it appear. Either that or Tivo is just plain incompetent in managing projects like this. Couple that with the 2 year delay on the Comcast Tivo box and the Cox Tivo box still isn't released and it's been what, 4 years now since it was announced?

Counting on Tivo getting anything out on time is frankly a bad bet.

On top of that Tivo has to integrate the DirecTV on demand feature, the interactive apps and the DirecTV way of doing networking and MRV. Tivo may be having trouble doing that which may also be leading to more delay's.

In the end it's all speculation.


----------



## shibby191

BOBCAT said:


> My post was made in the heat of the moment. D* lack of responsibility to it's customers to release it's replacement TiVo based DVR in a timely manor before they turned down the last few HD channels that the HR10 owners had just got me mad.
> I'm beginning to think that D* announced the TiVo box just to keep the HR10 owners hanging on. After all its all about $$ and another 2 years of revenue from the die hard HR10 owners is a good chunk of change.
> I hate the thought of having to plug in the HR20's for the few programs that I watch. Was looking forward to just pulling them out and dumping them at the locial "Ewaste" station when the new TiVo DVR came out.
> Maybe D* will offer a standard def version of HDN and HDTH for the HR10..... NOT! They are not that sensitive to their customers to think of something like that.
> Oh well


Why is this DirecTV's fault? DirecTV is doing nothing more then providing the basic hardware platform (which is the nearly the same as Tivo's stand alone products) and some R&D money. It's all in Tivo's court after that. If you want to blame anyone it's Tivo for the delays. And what do you want D* to tell you? All they can tell you is whatever the latest press release says and the CSRs certainly don't know anything. No idea why anyone tries to get any real info from a CSR. You're much better off going to DBSTalk or similar forum for an actual real information.

But anyway your theory of trying to "hang on" to HR10-250 owners really doesn't fly. Why? First the number of HR10-250 only customers if very small. Second, they announced the product right after Tivo did. Obviously they have to announce it if it's public knowledge based on regulatory filings and such. So they announced it when Tivo did. Since they they haven't said a word because it's in Tivo's court now to build and deliver it. DirecTV could really care less either way if Tivo ever gets it out the door. If Tivo does then DirecTV can capture a few hardcore users that want Tivo. But when compared to 9 million+ of their own DVR users it's a drop in the bucket frankly so if Tivo never delivers sure, they may lose a few thousand customers, if that. They'll never notice it. And yes, every customer is valuable, but spending millions to save 25,000 customers isn't a smart way to spend your money. 

DirecTV got a better deal this time around and will pass on the costs to the customer so the die hard Tivo users can have their Tivo and they will pay for it. DirecTV has said as much in their press releases and conference calls. So it will be a money maker for DirecTV if Tivo delivers. However if Tivo doesn't, DirecTV's sub growth will not suffer and they are just out a few million of R&D money. It's a win-win for DirecTV no matter what happens. Tivo is the one that can lose big on this if they keep delaying the product.

I for one hope that Tivo can get it out the door and soon. Competition is good and it's what will keep DirecTV innovating their own product let alone Dish, FIOS and the cable companies.


----------



## KDX

shibby191, thank you for the reply. I will have one HR10-250 and one HR20-100S for each TV (two total).

When they lose the 70's, they won't be able to get 281 (76 - HD Theater) or 306 (79 - HD Net), though the SD equivalents of 72, 73 and 75 will still be there.

I think OTA will be their new #1 use.


----------



## shibby191

KDX said:


> shibby191, thank you for the reply. I will have one HR10-250 and one HR20-100S for each TV (two total).
> 
> When they lose the 70's, they won't be able to get 281 (76 - HD Theater) or 306 (79 - HD Net), though the SD equivalents of 72, 73 and 75 will still be there.
> 
> I think OTA will be their new #1 use.


No problem. They will work just fine until they die as long as they fill your need of OTA HD only and SD stuff.


----------



## fasTLane

Directv can go ahead and shut off the few remaining HD channels now as it has become so compressed as to be unwatchable anyway. Most of our HD locals look light years better than Directv at this point.


----------



## shibby191

fasTLane said:


> Directv can go ahead and shut off the few remaining HD channels now as it has become so compressed as to be unwatchable anyway. Most of our HD locals look light years better than Directv at this point.


FYI that yes, the old MPEG2 HD channels that are being shut off look terrible and are compressed. But the MPEG4 HD channels are not and are near if not the tops in HD quality available (FIOS is usually ranked as the best PQ, DirecTV right behind).


----------



## parzec

shibby191 said:


> FYI that yes, the old MPEG2 HD channels that are being shut off look terrible and are compressed. But the MPEG4 HD channels are not and are near if not the tops in HD quality available (FIOS is usually ranked as the best PQ, DirecTV right behind).


Actually, OTA is the best picture quality especially when compared to DirecTV's compression of local channels to MPEG4. Nothing beats an antenna, especially a satellite provider trying to squeeze so many local feeds onto Sats with limited space.


----------



## shibby191

parzec said:


> Actually, OTA is the best picture quality especially when compared to DirecTV's compression of local channels to MPEG4. Nothing beats an antenna, especially a satellite provider trying to squeeze so many local feeds onto Sats with limited space.


OTA is best (usually, depends on the market) of all. In most markets, mine at least, the HD locals on DirecTV are just as good (can't really tell the difference) and is better for one of my locals due to reception issues. I am OTA only now but when I had DirecTV about 6 months ago it was that way. Consensus on the major sat forums agree that the MPEG4 HD locals are almost the same PQ as directly OTA, to the point that most people couldn't tell the difference. But technically yes, OTA is best, nothing can beat it.


----------



## Wil

shibby191 said:


> technically yes, OTA is best, nothing can beat it


This is incredibly honest of you. I'm really impressed!

Next thing we know, you'll be dropping that "technically" and we won't know who you are any more.


----------



## fasTLane

*LOL*


----------



## stevel

OTA is great - if you're in a location with a good signal on all channels. For the rest of us, not so great...


----------



## shibby191

Wil said:


> This is incredibly honest of you. I'm really impressed!
> 
> Next thing we know, you'll be dropping that "technically" and we won't know who you are any more.


Nothing to be honest about. It's true. OTA HD, when unmolested by the station and not compressed to crap because they have 2-3 subchannels going, is the best there is. In my market Fox and ABC are fantastic. NBC sucks (2 subchannels and NBC is bad anyway) and CBS is pretty bad as well (subchannels and just substandard equipment/cheap management).

FIOS is probably considered the tops in pay TV in terms of local HD quality and DirecTV HD locals are not far behind in quality (most people can't tell the diff anyway). I also read (have no personal experience) that the Dish's HD locals are very good too, but not as good as DirecTV or FIOS. What all 3 (and even cable) can do better then OTA is give perfect reception which some people can't get OTA.

Just stating what is common knowledge on the various sat and home theater forums.


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## Wil

shibby191 said:


> Nothing to be honest about. It's true.


OK, I see. Do you understand what you have just just said?


shibby191 said:


> OTA HD, when unmolested by the station and not compressed to crap because they have 2-3 subchannels going


There you go again. OTA digital, even slice and diced into subchannels as some are doing, is still going to be better than the same slice and diced video further processed and compressed, particularly in DirecTV's delightful way. FIOS and many local cable operators further degrade the picture but much less than does DirecTV. It can never be as good as the original OTA.

As far as perfect reception, OTA digital (HiDef or not) is pretty much either or. If you get a signal to the point you can see it without breakup/pixelization, it's perfect. There is no gradual degradation to coarsening picture to snow over distance as there was in analog.

In my case, with no great terrain but a little over $100 in investment (I'm in an allied business so this is wholesale, say $150 or so retail, carefully shopped) and some elbow grease, I get a couple of dozen OTA channels from two major markets. And while I share the dismay about the bandwidth stolen by subchannels, some of them are rich in content (movie channels, classic TV, cooking, DIY, etc.). Again, in my situation I have the beauty of getting the same network "pure" (full bandwidth) and the same network from another market with the greater variety of programming.

Many people, with a little upfront effort, have found that OTA supplemented with other sources like Netfix, RedBox, online sources, etc. makes cable and satellite a wasteful and unneeded expense.


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## shibby191

Wil said:


> As far as perfect reception, OTA digital (HiDef or not) is pretty much either or. If you get a signal to the point you can see it without breakup/pixelization, it's perfect. There is no gradual degradation to coarsening picture to snow over distance as there was in analog.


Not totally. There are multipath issues and signals can pixelize and go in and out. My CBS is a prime example of this. At times it's great, at others it pixelizes and drops out. And it's located in the same antenna farm as all the others. Just a bad station all around.



> Many people, with a little upfront effort, have found that OTA supplemented with other sources like Netfix, RedBox, online sources, etc. makes cable and satellite a wasteful and unneeded expense.


That would be me. I dumped all pay TV over 6 months ago and haven't looked back. Don't miss it at all.


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## Wil

shibby191 said:


> That would be me. I dumped all pay TV over 6 months ago and haven't looked back. Don't miss it at all.


Alas that would not be me. As a group we have too much need of a range of live sports events, and certain specific specialty shows (House Hunters, some home design and gardening shows) that are of too-limited interest to be available much on-line.


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## shibby191

Wil said:


> Alas that would not be me. As a group we have too much need of a range of live sports events, and certain specific specialty shows (House Hunters, some home design and gardening shows) that are of too-limited interest to be available much on-line.


Yep, it's not for everyone to be sure. Sports is the big thing. FYI that new seasons of House Hunters and many of those type of shows are available on Hulu or Boxee.

But we had to decide this....is $120 a month worth a few shows not on network TV and some sports? Nope, not close. Heck, I can hit the bar every Sunday for NFL if I wanted and still save a ton of money.

But again, not for everyone, most in fact. But it is a growing segment, those dropping all pay TV.


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## jsarich

Just so we're clear.

When DirecTV disconnects the "HD" package from our HR10-250, we will still be able to record OTA HD feeds? Is it only the DVR feature that needs to be activated for the OTA HD recordability to function?

If that is the case, this is good news all around. The ONLY channel I watch in the 70's was ESPN. If I don't get that anymore...big deal, so I lose MNF in HD...but that isn't until September. If I can still record HD OTA, everything is good. The way I look at it, I get a $10/month discount to continue to get 99.5% of the channels that I care about. I 

Woo hoo!


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## LI-SVT

Yes, the OTA HD works without the $10/month add on. When all the MPEG-2 HD is gone you can still use the HR10 for sat SD and OTA HD.


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## Wil

jsarich said:


> The way I look at it, I get a $10/month discount to continue to get 99.5% of the channels that I care about.


Where is there any indication that DirecTV will remove the $10 monthly charge on the HR10-250?


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## codespy

jsarich said:


> Just so we're clear. When DirecTV disconnects the "HD" package from our HR10-250, we will still be able to record OTA HD feeds? Is it only the DVR feature that needs to be activated for the OTA HD recordability to function?...........


Yes, you must keep DVR service to record OTA.


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## codespy

Wil said:


> Where is there any indication that DirecTV will remove the $10 monthly charge on the HR10-250?


If you don't have any DirecTV Mpeg4 HD receivers or DVR's on your account, call a competent CSR and they should remove the $10 charge per month for the legacy equipment you have. Do a search as others have benefitted from this also.


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## Wil

codespy said:


> If you don't have any DirecTV Mpeg4 HD receivers or DVR's on your account, call a competent CSR and they should remove the $10 charge per month for the legacy equipment you have. Do a search as others have benefitted from this also.


I have called, several times as the channels dwindled. Each time I was told the $10 stays with the box, regardless.


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## whitepelican

Wil said:


> I have called, several times as the channels dwindled. Each time I was told the $10 stays with the box, regardless.


I've removed the HD access and re-added it a couple of times (based on whether or not I wanted ESPN/ESPN2-HD) on my HR10-250s over the years. It was no problem whatsoever to convince them that I shouldn't have to pay the $10/month to get a handful of HD channels.


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## TyroneShoes

shibby191 said:


> ...FIOS is probably considered the tops in pay TV in terms of local HD quality and DirecTV HD locals are not far behind in quality (most people can't tell the diff anyway). I also read (have no personal experience) that the Dish's HD locals are very good too, but not as good as DirecTV or FIOS...


It may be _considered _the best, but "technically" (don't tase me, dude) it can't possibly be. FIOS just like everyone else gets the OTA signal after the local station has compressed it to SMPTE310 standards, which essentially is what reduces it down to the 19.38 Mb stream (about the most that can fit into 6 MHz).

So for OTA signals, nothing can be better, or even as good as the original OTA. There is a law of physics that is pretty difficult to break that makes this so. Any time you chain two dissimilar compression algorithms, you increase the rounding errors, which translates to a lowering of fidelity to the original signal that can manifest as artifacts.

DTV has done a remarkable job doing just that, which is why their MPEG4 is visually indistinguishable from the original OTA. DISH has a little less bandwidth to play with, and may be doing a version of "HD Lite" where the H rez is reduced from 1920 to 1440, at least on some channels.



shibby191 said:


> ...the old MPEG2 HD channels that are being shut off look terrible and are compressed. But the MPEG4 HD channels are not and are near if not the tops in HD quality available...


Aside from the fact that all consumer HD is compressed (unless you count that flowing over HDMI and component cables), MPEG2 channels on DTV are actually _less _compressed that MPEG4 channels. They (MPEG4) look better, tho, because MPEG4 has fewer artifacts for a given compression level, meaning it can be compressed more and still look better.


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## shibby191

TyroneShoes said:


> It may be _considered _the best, but "technically" (don't tase me, dude) it can't possibly be. FIOS just like everyone else gets the OTA signal after the local station has compressed it to SMPTE310 standards, which essentially is what reduces it down to the 19.38 Mb stream (about the most that can fit into 6 MHz).
> 
> So for OTA signals, nothing can be better, or even as good as the original OTA. There is a law of physics that is pretty difficult to break that makes this so. Any time you chain two dissimilar compression algorithms, you increase the rounding errors, which translates to a lowering of fidelity to the original signal that can manifest as artifacts.
> 
> DTV has done a remarkable job doing just that, which is why their MPEG4 is visually indistinguishable from the original OTA. DISH has a little less bandwidth to play with, and may be doing a version of "HD Lite" where the H rez is reduced from 1920 to 1440, at least on some channels.


Just to be clear, I wasn't saying FIOS was better then OTA. If you ranked HD quality you might go like this:

1) OTA
2) FIOS
3) DirecTV
4) Cable/Dish
5) Uverse

And of course there are many variables with the cable companies and such.


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## fasTLane

shibby191 said:


> 1) OTA
> 2) FIOS
> 3) DirecTV
> 4) Cable/Dish
> 5) Uverse


However, OTA quality will be compromised when subchannels are in the stream.


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## Wil

fasTLane said:


> However, OTA quality will be compromised when subchannels are in the stream.


And, therefore, further compression by other providers will be compromised down from that point, with OTA still on top.

Which is what you're saying, just to clarify.


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## Wil

shibby191 said:


> Just to be clear, I wasn't saying FIOS was better then OTA. If you ranked HD quality you might go like this:
> 
> 1) OTA
> 2) FIOS
> 3) DirecTV
> 4) Cable/Dish
> 5) Uverse
> 
> And of course there are many variables with the cable companies and such.


Cable can be very good these days, but quite variable from system (company and location) to system as you indicate. At its best, definitely better than DirecTV.


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## shibby191

fasTLane said:


> However, OTA quality will be compromised when subchannels are in the stream.


Yep. And as Wil says then anyone else down the line picking up the station will be even less quality. Thus OTA for that station is still the best quality, even if they have 4 subchannels going.

There are 2 variables where this may not be the case:

1) Local station provides a direct fiber feed to pay TV providers of the main station before it further compresses it down for their OTA feed with subchannels. I think this is very rare but I have read on AVS where there are some stations that do this. In this case that local would have better quality via cable/sat/etc since it's a "better" feed then what's going out OTA. In theory anyway. I think where I read this was in a smaller market where the local Fox station is just a subchannel of the ABC station. Thus Fox isn't even HD OTA. But the local cable system is provided an HD feed of the Fox station which the station can't do OTA. So in that case the best PQ for Fox is actually with cable.

2) There are of course local and individual reception issues with OTA which may make pay TV the better way for that individual. But all things equal and great reception OTA should be the best quality you can get.


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## TyroneShoes

fasTLane said:


> However, OTA quality will be compromised when subchannels are in the stream.


But OTA is the source, so if it is compromised by subs (which does not have to be the case, BTW) unless in the extremely rare laboratory curiosity situation shibby is talking about, everything else will be compromised as much, and if they re-encode, even more, meaning even when there are subs, OTA still has the best PQ.


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## stevel

Again, not necessarily. OTA is MPEG2 compressed - albeit not very much. As mentioned above, many TV stations provide a direct feed BEFORE the compression so, theoretically, it could be better than OTA.


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## TyroneShoes

stevel said:


> Again, not necessarily. OTA is MPEG2 compressed - albeit not very much. As mentioned above, many TV stations provide a direct feed BEFORE the compression so, theoretically, it could be better than OTA.


Well that is exactly what I said; there is a small exception. But it is a much smaller exception than you make it out to be. Many stations are fed the signal from the network already compressed to SMPTE310 standards (including all FOX and most PBS stations), so they don't even have the opportunity to feed it out locally at a less-compressed rate.

Those who even would have that opportunity would have to employ a secondary encoder that could secondarily compress the original decoded HDSDI to a mezzanine level, which speaking as a TV broadcast engineer in a top market working for two network owned and operated stations in the very disciplines we are discussing, I can assure you is extremely, extremely rare.

Not only would all of this significantly increase the complexity of maintenance in a mission-critical path, the equipment is in the $30K range, so there would have to be a burning need for the station to want to have a marginal increase in quality for a fraction of their viewers, and that could be wiped out by tertiary compression by the local vendor, so it hardly makes economic or technical sense to do anything like that, which is why it is rarely if ever done. The only way to get that past a corporate budget engineering panel that has responsibility to a board of directors would be to lie to them about what the equipment was actually for.

And the potential for increased PQ is minimal; to compress it to a level that could be economically fibered to and handled by vendors would also mean significant compression, probably to a 45 Mb stream, which is a 33:1 compression ratio. That would also imply that those vendors would have to compress it once again, for a third time before they could redistribute, which is something that stations would rather have control over instead of being at the whim of the secondary vendor. Once you start using significant compression, the product of further compression algorithms can start to really degrade things, so a third time at those rates would not preserve much beyond a single SMPTE310 pass done by the station.

Send it in a format they can use (SMPTE310 over ASI, for instance) and they can extract it and remodulate it to QAM pretty easily; if it arrives as a larger bit stream, that implies that they will have to deal with it further to reduce it to a bit rate that they are comfortable with distributing. It also increases the secondary vendors' maintenance and equipment costs, which they normally insist that the station pay for, meaning 30K just became 60K (just to feed one cable company; add another 30K for every other vendor). That does not include the increase in monthly rate for fiber fees, which are based on the bandwidth used.

So the station has an option, one option which is inexpensive and reliable and provides PQ equal to (or nearly equal to) what they put OTA, and another option which is less reliable and significantly expensive, and which provides a marginal potential for increased quality to a fraction of their viewing audience, which pays them nothing and gets it for free (if you don't count what cable and sat charge for the privilege of bringing it to them).

Again, _technically_, you can send them a marginally-better product. _Theoretically_, it might even be something customers could tell the difference between (although the odds are stacked well in favor of any increase in quality being even _slightly_ noticeably better; and then _theoretically_, if my Aunt Alice had a moustache, she might actually be my Uncle Earl).

As far as economic business sense goes, the decision _not_ to do that is an absolute no-brainer, which is pretty much why that is about all you can find in the real world.


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## tivoboy

I'm starting to see a floating sign on the 70's 80's channels, saying on 3/31/10 THIS WILL GO AWAY.


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## litzdog911

tivoboy said:


> I'm starting to see a floating sign on the 70's 80's channels, saying on 3/31/10 THIS WILL GO AWAY.


Yep. Being discussed here ....
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=444597


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## codespy

Ahhh.....some guide data in the 70's HD channels extends well into April.....knock on wood maybe there is hope. But then again probably not. I like TiVo but am 50/50 invested with both DVR's. Just getting tired of waiting for the new TiVo's....and probably won't jump now that I still pay $0.00 for DVR service, especially while still on Premier programming.


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## codespy

Well I got my last 4 HR10's with the 750gig drives filled up with programming and now that mpeg2 HD is gone, I just called DTV for my "Free HD Swap". They are sending me 4 HD DVR's and 4 AM21's at no charge and are giving me Free Superfan because they botched the order at first. No cost for shipping either.

No complaints from this department. Sorry TiVo- I held out as long as I could. I still have my HDVR2's to tinker with and update programming on from time to time.

Oh and by the way TiVo, IF or when the new unit comes out and if you increase the DVR service fee, I will probably say no since I am still at $0.00 grandfathered premier. Sorry.


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## Wil

codespy said:


> Well I got my last 4 HR10's with the 750gig drives filled up with programming


As you empty them out, if you'd be willing to sell to me for shipping ($17-$21), I'll find them good homes.


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## HiDefGator

codespy said:


> They are sending me 4 HD DVR's and 4 AM21's at no charge and are giving me Free Superfan because they botched the order at first. No cost for shipping either.


That is an amazing deal. Frankly I can't believe they agreed to send you 4 HD DVR's for free.


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## tivoboy

Did you have to do a renewal? I just need ONE in order to get it all working, but don't want to renew/reup since we'll be going out of the country for a while in about nine months.


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## bigpuma

tivoboy said:


> Did you have to do a renewal? I just need ONE in order to get it all working, but don't want to renew/reup since we'll be going out of the country for a while in about nine months.


There is definitely a 2 year commitment if you get a new HD DVR. That said if you are going to be gone for less than 6 months you can suspend your account without incurring a charge as long as you re-activate your account when you get back.


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## codespy

HiDefGator said:


> That is an amazing deal. Frankly I can't believe they agreed to send you 4 HD DVR's for free.


I told them my account is flagged OTA since my old receivers had it.

Here's a c/p from both orders:

Item Description Price	Quantity	Total 
Swap Replace HR20 IRD Free 1 Free 
Swap Replace HR20 IRD Free 1 Free 
Swap Replace HR20 IRD Free 1 Free 
Swap Replace HR20 IRD Free 1 Free 
Professional Installation Free 1 Free 
Use Tax Adjustment $7.70 1 $7.70 
Use Tax Credit ($7.70) 1 ($7.70) 
Handling Free
Standard Professional Install Free
Tax $0.00
Order Total $0.00

Item Description Price	Quantity	Total
NFL SUNDAY TICKET™ SuperFan® Special Free Offer 1 
Off-Air Tuner Free 1 Free 
Off-Air Tuner Free 1 Free 
Off-Air Tuner Free 1 Free 
Off-Air Tuner Free 1 Free 
Delivery and Handling Fee Free
Tax $0.00
Order Total $0.00

I don't have any complaints. Very Happy with DirecTV service.


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## TyroneShoes

bigpuma said:


> There is definitely a 2 year commitment if you get a new HD DVR...


There wasn't for me, so you may want to redefine "definitely".


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## bigpuma

TyroneShoes said:


> There wasn't for me, so you may want to redefine "definitely".


You got a free upgrade with no commitment? If so I guess I should change that to almost always.


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