# Bye Bye Tivo



## chrisd (Oct 24, 2003)

Last night I finally pulled the power lead out of my lovely TiVo. 
Since getting SKY HD it just wasn't worth sticking with both formats, and so with a heavy heart I decided that unfortunately TiVo had to go....no matter how bad the SKY+ is, I need the dual tuners and high def.

Gonna miss you buddy. <cry> <cry> <cry>.


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## RWILTS (Apr 21, 2006)

We will now hold a minute of silence....


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Can I stop being silent now? Has the hooter gone and I didn't hear it?


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## chrisd (Oct 24, 2003)

No, it is a very sad day, so I expect you all to honor my Tivo with some respect.

That damn SKY and their pesky HD.


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## SJC (Mar 21, 2004)

So how much do you want for it Chrisd?


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## RWILTS (Apr 21, 2006)

RWILTS said:


> We will now hold a minute of silence....


The minute silence normal lasts 60 seconds


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Ah - but I'm not wearing a watch. You know what happens when you ASSUME...


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## CarlWalters (Oct 17, 2001)

ColinYounger said:


> Ah - but I'm not wearing a watch. You know what happens when you ASSUME...


one hippopotamus
two hippopotamus...


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## chrisd (Oct 24, 2003)

SJC said:


> So how much do you want for it Chrisd?


I don't think I can let it go. It would feel like selling part of the family. No, I think a home in the attic is much more suitable


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## RWILTS (Apr 21, 2006)

What other members of your family have you stored in the attic?


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## philipcosson (Dec 15, 2002)

How many tivos in the attic? My cuckoo goes by the name of "Virgin Media V+" and It is absolute junk.

I can't bring myself to get rid of the tivo

Philip


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Sorry, but I think "absolute junk" is an overstatement. Yes, it's not as good as Tivo but then nothing ever will be. The V+ is a very good, albeit not Tivo, system.

Should my Tivo ever die on me, and I mean completely and irrecoverably (and assuming I couldn't get another Tivo) I'd certainly be happy to get a V+.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Yes, it's not as good as Tivo but then nothing ever will be.


How about a version of Windows Media Player that can handle encrypted channels without the current Dragon CAM messing around.

Of course that would necessitate Ofcom taking acting to stop Sky's currently restricted practices in terms of its failure to provide a CAM that can be used by other manufacturers.

So Ofcom being as useless as it is this is about as likely as hell freezing over.......   :down:


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

chrisd said:


> I don't think I can let it go. It would feel like selling part of the family. No, I think a home in the attic is much more suitable


Hmmm this sounds rather like having a dead family member stuffed and put in a glass cabinet.

Surely it would give you more joy to think or your little Tivo still giving pleasure in another home than sitting there moribund, dead and cold in the loft.

Can I take it that your Tivo probably did not have a Lifetime Sub as surely otherwise giving it to your mother or brother or using it with Freeview in another room or whatever would make more sense.


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## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

Sounds more likely he doesn't have complete confidence in his Sky HD solution


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

alextegg said:


> Sounds more likely he doesn't have complete confidence in his Sky HD solution


That's not the impression I gained.

He seems to have been parallel running Tivo and Sky HD as a result of which he has finally taken a decision to consign Tivo to history.

I think it goes without saying me must be paying a monthly sub on his Tivo rather than having a Lifetime Sub.


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## chrisd (Oct 24, 2003)

Well Pete, you're wrong again. 

My TiVo *does * have lifetime subscription, and as alex says I really don't like the SKY+, but as TiVo can't handle HD then I have no choice but to use the SKY+.

In a perfect world (well, not even a perfect world, hell they have it in the States) all I need is a HD TiVo and I'd be happy. I love my little TiVo box but it cannot fully work with the SKY input so it has to go.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

chrisd said:


> In a perfect world (well, not even a perfect world, hell they have it in the States) all I need is a HD TiVo and I'd be happy. I love my little TiVo box but it cannot fully work with the SKY input so it has to go.


OK but that being so then why not sell the Tivo with the Lifetime Sub on Ebay for £130 upwards and give someone else the pleasure of the Tivo experience rather than leaving your Lifetime Subbed Tivo in the loft until the moment when Tivo finally end the UK Tivo service and your loft based Tivo is then worth nothing.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> when Tivo finally end the UK Tivo service


Will never happen


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> Will never happen


It definitely will if Tivo Inc is ever bought out by Newscorp (Sky)


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## johala_reewi (Oct 30, 2002)

chrisd said:


> In a perfect world all I need is a HD TiVo and I'd be happy. I love my little TiVo box but it cannot fully work with the SKY input so it has to go.


That would be a great hack. A series 1 HD UK tivo.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

My TiVo became fairly redundant when I got my first Vista machine up and running and, as a side-effect, it happened to run MCE. However, when the Vista-based hardware gave up the ghost (CPU fan not running, and CPU smoking), the TiVo came back into use for several months; until I had time to build a new, dedicated MCE box.

I can't see any reason why I shouldn't keep the TiVo in reserve, rather than flog it and regret it later. It can still be used to buffer live TV, and that leaves both of the twin Freeview tuners in my MCE-based machine to be dedicated to recording. I also use it to record the last two daily episodes of the Breakfast programme, and to record any films it can find on my FTA Sky box that match my wishlists. Maybe a humble ending for something that was once the most significant addition to my household, but still the most trusted member of my family.


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## Verne (Nov 21, 2000)

Pete77 said:


> OK but that being so then why not sell the Tivo with the Lifetime Sub on Ebay for £130 upwards and give someone else the pleasure of the Tivo experience rather than leaving your Lifetime Subbed Tivo in the loft until the moment when Tivo finally end the UK Tivo service and your loft based Tivo is then worth nothing.


Maybe he doesn't need the money? The time and effort involved might not be worth it for only £130 or whatever he got for it.

Also, if TiVo ever stop the UK service hasn't it already been established that we could supply our own listings? Like they do in Australia?

I don't go on there myself but as I understand it there are quite a few TiVos on sale on eBay so putting it in the loft would not be depriving anyone else the pleasure of owning one.


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

6022tivo said:


> Will never happen


Of course it will. Nothing lasts forever for a start, and I can easily see it having only a couple of years to run now. More so if subscriptions dry up as people move to HD platforms (and come the new year I can see Sky dropping the £10 a month on SkyHD and frankly you'll see loads of people signing up. It's what's happened with Sky+. Plus BBC and others are due to confirm full HD channel launches pretty soon with full roll out starting next year).

It won't take long for someone at the top of TiVo looking at the books to see some obscure entry on the accounts for UK suscriptions and listings and just say "hey bud, what's this we're wasting money on? Get rid of it".

More so if (as suggested earlier), Murdoch buys TiVo Inc (which he's promptly close down). And never say never


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Tivo have a commitment to the Lifetime owners, also they are still getting a fair amount of £10 PCM subs, and the data is compiled by Tribune who also compile the data for Windows Media Center (Who don't charge users).


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> Tivo have a commitment to the Lifetime owners, also they are still getting a fair amount of £10 PCM subs, and the data is compiled by Tribune who also compile the data for Windows Media Center (Who don't charge users).


But you can bet your bottom dollar that Tribune do bill Microsoft for providing the service.


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

Commitments are fairly meaningless anyway. The Labour gov declare commitments in all kinds of ways and yet repeatedly break them.

Not sure what their legal responsibility is with a lifetime sub, but as a lifetime owner myself I'm expecting nothing when it goes. If the company is bought up though you have little come back.

Monthly subs? How much is "a fair amount"? There can't be all that many UK TiVo owners anyway. Hardly talking millions here. Only figure I've seen is of around 35,000 units being sold, and how many are monthly subs? Lifetime subs is dead money so they're only providing the service based on what monthly subs they're getting, and surely those must be decreasing as either people move to Sky+/HD/V+ or just realise how much money they are spending a year on the thing!


And as I say, nothing lasts forever. Commitment or not, you can't expect them to be still providing the service 100 years from now


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

DeadKenny said:


> And as I say, nothing lasts forever. Commitment or not, you can't expect them to be still providing the service 100 years from now


Forever is obviously an unreasonable expectation. Apart from anything else I highly doubt that in say 30 years from now the existing Sky, Cable or Freeview channel structures as we now know them will exist. Whereas its just possible that the Neff fridge and freezer in my kitchen might be chugging away in another 30 years time if some fashion conscious housewife hasn't spent her husbands money by throwing them in the nearest skip.

Tivos were sold in the UK in a meaningful way between Autumn 2000 and late 2002.

So long as Tivo as we know it now continues to exist and as long as the founder of Tivo Bill Ramsay, who is very loyal to the UK and his Scottish roots, continues to have a connection with the company then I think it is probably quite likely that they would want to provide at least a 10 year service life for all original Tivo purchasers as long as the number of subscribers still collecting data is a reasonable quantity and as long as the costs vs the continuing monthly subs aren't totally horrendous.

Based on all that I see every chance of the current service continuing for around another 5 years but not a great deal more than that.

Whilst the hackability of Tivo is very appealing in the end a Windows MCE Vista type system with more functions and multiple tuners and HD compatibility will sadly one day render our Tivos obsolete. Also down the road I can see even getting hold of replacement IDE drives becoming an issue.

I am hopeful we will get at least another 5 years though and the way things look now it will probably be least another 5 years before anything as good as a Tivo for recording Freeview or Freesat programs finally becomes available.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

It depends if TiVo continues as an independent entity. It loses over $10m every quarter (with on recent exception), just as it has since 1999. It has a negative cash generation.

That can't continue forever.

It's market cap is around $600m; I'd have thought it would be a buy-out target at some point. Then all best are off re: UK service.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> It depends if TiVo continues as an independent entity. It loses over $10m every quarter (with on recent exception), just as it has since 1999. It has a negative cash generation.
> 
> That can't continue forever.
> 
> It's market cap is around $600m; I'd have thought it would be a buy-out target at some point. Then all best are off re: UK service.


Are you just back from an overseas trip TCM or have you just completed some major commercial deal that has been occupying all your time for the last few days.

But yes my view would be that as long as Tivo continues as it is the UK service will continue as although there probably is a net negative total cost it is probably not a massive cost in the great scheme of things and in relation to total losses by Tivo. Apart from anything else closing service in the UK would be bad for customer confidence in relation to fresh Tivo launches in new overseas markets like Australia.

On the other hand if the company was taken over then any new owner would view the whole business in an entirely different manner and mainly only be interested in integrating the software in to their own product lines while reducing costs on continuing to operate the US product lines to a point at which they were hopefully profitable.

One point about businesses that continue to run at a loss but that constantly increase customer numbers is surely that the shareholders often do that with an eventual total sale of the business in mind. This has time and again been a classic strategy amongst internet service providers............


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Rugby Pete, rugby.

TIVo isn't really growing. In the three months last posted, TiVo lost 145,000 subscribers; mainly from DirecTV but "normal" TiVos lost almost 20,000 subscribers and gross additions were half what they were the year before. The number of paying subscribers is probably worse still, as 180,000 lifetimes are now over 4 years old and not contributing to the accounts anymore.

Worse, in the last quarter acquisition costs were an amzine $750 per subscriber (normal TIvo rate is $200-odd) but revenues were $9 a month per subscriber. Do, as they say over there, the math!

I also see they've written off over $10m worth of old series 2 machines they couldn't sell.


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