# Skipmode; what's the incentive for public networks?



## Jack Mccarthy (Aug 24, 2012)

Got it on my TIVO here in the Boston area upon request. Love it! I was told that it only works between 4-12pm for those public/cable networks participating in it along with particular shows where a marker is put in so that TIVO can search for it on the Roamio. (according to TIVO support)

If this is true, why would a network like CBS, ABC, NBC or CW that also broadcast OTA decide to allow it and how long do you think it will it last? Don't wish to be a pessimist, but since I love the feature I'm not sure why public networks would agree to it since their revenue stream is from commercials.

Anyone have any theories? Are there any threads/posts that go into detail about the matter?


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## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

Jack Mccarthy said:


> Got it on my TIVO here in the Boston area upon request. Love it! I was told that it only works between 4-12pm for those public/cable networks participating in it along with particular shows where a marker is put in so that TIVO can search for it on the Roamio. (according to TIVO support)
> 
> If this is true, why would a network like CBS, ABC, NBC or CW that also broadcast OTA decide to allow it and how long do you think it will it last? Don't wish to be a pessimist, but since I love the feature I'm not sure why public networks would agree to it since their revenue stream is from commercials.
> 
> Anyone have any theories? Are there any threads/posts that go into detail about the matter?


I don't think the networks do anything. TiVo places the markers in it if I read correctly. Which is why it takes a few minutes after the show airs to show SKIP. I used it last night as I got it yesterday and love it!


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

Jack Mccarthy said:


> Got it on my TIVO here in the Boston area upon request. Love it! I was told that it only works between 4-12pm for those public/cable networks participating in it along with particular shows where a marker is put in so that TIVO can search for it on the Roamio. (according to TIVO support)
> 
> If this is true, why would a network like CBS, ABC, NBC or CW that also broadcast OTA decide to allow it and how long do you think it will it last? Don't wish to be a pessimist, but since I love the feature I'm not sure why public networks would agree to it since their revenue stream is from commercials.
> 
> Anyone have any theories? Are there any threads/posts that go into detail about the matter?


It could be that they don't "allow" it but they may have trouble finding good legal issues to stop it, although that rarely stops lawyers. 
The thing is that Tivo is recording the commercials and any DVR has had the option to fast forward through commercials since their inception. Tivo has just mechanized this process a bit but it is still not completely automatic and the commercials are still there.


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## Jack Mccarthy (Aug 24, 2012)

joewom said:


> I don't think the networks do anything. TiVo places the markers in it if I read correctly. Which is why it takes a few minutes after the show airs to show SKIP. I used it last night as I got it yesterday and love it!


Well if TIVO are actually putting in the markers, wouldn't they still require approval from the networks?

It certainly doesn't show up on every show. I didn't see it for the Oscars for example which was on a regular public network channel.



fcfc2 said:


> It could be that they don't "allow" it but they may have trouble finding good legal issues to stop it, although that rarely stops lawyers.
> The thing is that Tivo is recording the commercials and any DVR has had the option to fast forward through commercials since their inception. Tivo has just mechanized this process a bit but it is still not completely automatic and the commercials are still there.


Well, I hope that's the case as I certainly wouldn't want to see that option disappear if I decide to cut the cord and go strictly OTA.


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

Jack Mccarthy said:


> Well if TIVO are actually putting in the markers, wouldn't they still require approval from the networks?
> 
> It certainly doesn't show up on every show. I didn't see it for the Oscars for example which was on a regular public network channel.


 I believe that it doesn't get applied to live shows such as the Oscars.

I also don't believe they are putting those markers IN the recording. It's a secondary process (cc or something)


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Jack Mccarthy said:


> Well if TIVO are actually putting in the markers, wouldn't they still require approval from the networks?
> 
> It certainly doesn't show up on every show. I didn't see it for the Oscars for example which was on a regular public network channel.


No, they do not get approval from the networks. The networks are not involved at all. TiVo has a team that marks where the channels are and the list is updated constantly in My Shows soon after each recording is finished (withing a few minutes).

The Oscars were live. In general, skipmode will not be active for live programming.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

Jack Mccarthy said:


> Well if TIVO are actually putting in the markers, wouldn't they still require approval from the networks?


No _skip_ markers are ever put into anything that is broadcast or sent out over cable, and they're not even inserted by the TiVo into the data recorded onto the hard drive. I think when you start to play a recording that has SkipMode enabled, the TiVo downloads a small table that has the location (relative to CC info already in the data) and length of each commercial, then during playback the TiVo watches for the embedded CC info to let you skip when desired. It should work pretty well as long as local stations or cable companies don't corrupt the parts of the data stream containing the CC info.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

Don't much care how or why it is allowed or how it works.
And, don't get me wrong, I like it; but you still have to manage a remote.
Then remember to press the skip button; I find that, in and of itself, distracting.

I still prefer to download programs of one hour or longer, edit the file, then play it through my HTPC for completely uninterrupted viewing.
Yes, this is clunky and takes (more) time; but IMO it's worth the trouble for the end result.


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## belfert (Nov 15, 2007)

You would rather take the time to edit the commercials out of each recording than to just press a button at each commercial break? To each his own I guess.


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## Jack Mccarthy (Aug 24, 2012)

L David Matheny said:


> No markers are ever put into anything that is broadcast or sent out over cable, and they're not even inserted by the TiVo into the data recorded onto the hard drive. I think when you start to play a recording that has SkipMode enabled, the TiVo downloads a small table that has the location (relative to CC info already in the data) and length of each commercial, then during playback the TiVo watches for the embedded CC markers to let you skip when desired. It should work pretty well as long as local stations or cable companies don't corrupt the parts of the data stream containing the CC markers.


I'm not sure of the relevance of the CC markers. How would you differentiate the CC markers in commercials from the ones in a show?

After reading some online articles on it, it seems the "markers" are inserted manually from TIVO representatives themselves after a show is recorded. Hopefully, it's not some labor intensive practice that would/could be discontinued in the future.

Dish network already has the "AutoHop" feature to skip commercials. I wonder if it's a similar methodology.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Teeps said:


> Don't much care how or why it is allowed or how it works.
> And, don't get me wrong, I like it; but you still have to manage a remote.
> Then remember to press the skip button; I find that, in and of itself, distracting.
> 
> ...


I used to start watching a show 15 to 20 minutes after it started so I could FF though it. Now I find myself waiting until it has finished and the SKIP mode is enabled.

Very few programs would motivate me to download / decrypt / remove commercials / upload. Maybe if I were going to archive the show, but I do that A LOT less than I used too. No, I pretty much routinely watch and delete - the process you suggest wouldn't be worth my time (and from my experience, not as reliable)


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## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

below is from the verge. It tells me someone is marking it and that would be TiVo. As I doubt it is the networks and it says its manual tagging process.

Well, for one thing it only works on recorded shows, even though after a day I was dying to use it on live TV as well. For another, it only works with shows where the start and end points of the commercial blocks have been tagged, a process TiVo says is done by actual people. So far, only 20 channels are included, but they include popular ones like the four major broadcast networks, USA, TNT and Comedy Central.

It also doesnt work with sports or local programming  even when they are recorded. And it only works for other shows between 4pm and midnight, because TiVo figures thats when most viewing occurs, and it wanted to put some limits on its manual tagging process to start with. Also, it can take a few minutes for a show to become commercial-skippable and gain a tag in its listing that says "Skip."


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

It will last as long as Tivo is solvent and the network affiliates are solvent. 

The networks have nothing to do with the feature, but their OTA business can't exist if everyone is skipping commercials. 

So you gotta hope that the skipping of commercials in OTA remains a niche affair.

And who knows how long Tivo will be around. If they go then the autoskip goes.

Nothing imminent.


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## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

trip1eX said:


> It will last as long as Tivo is solvent and the network affiliates are solvent.
> 
> The networks have nothing to do with the feature, but their OTA business can't exist if everyone is skipping commercials.
> 
> ...


Everyone is skipping commercials with a DVR. FF or skip doesn't matter.

And TiVo has allot of cash and partnerships with cable companies. They are going nowhere soon.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

joewom said:


> Everyone is skipping commercials with a DVR. FF or skip doesn't matter.
> 
> And TiVo has allot of cash and partnerships with cable companies. They are going nowhere soon.


YOu're missing the pt.

There is no getting around that the OTA business is completely built-around ad revenue. And, without ad revenue, the business goes away.

Obviously people are skipping commercials now on cable/satellite. And OTA too. And that Autoskip is only fwd-ing or 30-second skip simplified.

I don't know how many consumers or the percentage that watch OTA have a dvr and skip commercials.

I do know the dvr has only 50% penetration amongst cable/satellite subscribers. And that a substantial percentage of dvr owners still either don't skip commercials and/or watch live tv.

So you still have to hope it remains niche enough to enjoy in the long run. And that the simplifying of skipping commercials doesn't lead to the niche growing too much.

And I don't think Tivo is going away tomorrow, but they aren't in a super strong financial/market position at all. And the vast majority of their business is overseas. Their patents are due to expire in 2 years. Not to mention they have some relatively new competition in the OTA dvr space.


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## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

trip1eX said:


> YOu're missing the pt.
> 
> There is no getting around that the OTA business is completely built-around ad revenue. And, without ad revenue, the business goes away.
> 
> ...


Deleted I was wrong on ads. But OTA is only 10% of all network viewership.

But networks will not go away just adjust their business to be more like cable channels or offer a online streaming option. Bad for OTA users. So that may go away but the network I doubt will.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

joewom said:


> Deleted I was wrong on ads. But OTA is only 10% of all network viewership.
> 
> But networks will not go away just adjust their business to be more like cable channels or offer a online streaming option. Bad for OTA users. So that may go away but the network I doubt will.


You're preaching to the choir.

I don't really disagree with anything you've said. It just isn't addressing any of the points made in my posts.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

belfert said:


> You would rather take the time to edit the commercials out of each recording than to just press a button at each commercial break?
> 
> To each his own I guess.


Yes, operating the skip button is a distraction.
I use skip mode for 30 minute comedies, but it's still a distraction.
I only edit hour long drama type shows I.E. NCIS, Elementary; that way there is no distraction or anticipation of when to, or which of the skip button(s) to hit.

And finally you are correct to each his own; but then, I wouldn't expect you to understand MY madness...

Oh, you're in my spot!


bradleys said:


> I used to start watching a show 15 to 20 minutes after it started so I could FF though it. Now I find myself waiting until it has finished and the SKIP mode is enabled.
> 
> Very few programs would motivate me to download / decrypt / remove commercials / upload. Maybe if I were going to archive the show, but I do that A LOT less than I used too. No, I pretty much routinely watch and delete - the process you suggest wouldn't be worth my time (and from my experience, not as reliable)


You make very good points, that I too practice in addition to making dramas more enjoyable by hard editing.
It's not about the time it takes to download/decrypt/edit a program. 
It's about the enjoyment of watching a program completely uninterrupted.


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## lmacmil (Oct 26, 2015)

trip1eX said:


> I don't know how many consumers or the percentage that watch OTA have a dvr and skip commercials.


I suspect this number is in the low single digits, percentage-wise. I don't know a single person who owns a Tivo and know only one other person who doesn't have cable or satellite TV. The only reason I bought a Tivo was so I could cut the cord and DVR OTA programs. I just wish I'd done it years, instead of months, ago.

Until skip-mode came along (just last week for me), I used the 30 second skip to FF thru the ads. Skip-mode is nice but it's only saving me a couple minutes per 1 hour show.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Teeps said:


> Yes, operating the skip button is a distraction. I use skip mode for 30 minute comedies, but it's still a distraction. I only edit hour long drama type shows I.E. NCIS, Elementary; that way there is no distraction or anticipation of when to, or which of the skip button(s) to hit. And finally you are correct to each his own; but then, I wouldn't expect you to understand MY madness... Oh, you're in my spot! You make very good points, that I too practice in addition to making dramas more enjoyable by hard editing. It's not about the time it takes to download/decrypt/edit a program. It's about the enjoyment of watching a program completely uninterrupted.


Is the work automated?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Teeps said:


> Then remember to press the skip button; I find that, in and of itself, distracting.


?!?!?! Umm, you were ALREADY hitting the FF or 30 second skip button, weren't you?!?!?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Teeps said:


> Yes, operating the skip button is a distraction.
> I use skip mode for 30 minute comedies, but it's still a distraction.
> I only edit hour long drama type shows I.E. NCIS, Elementary; that way there is no distraction or anticipation of when to, or which of the skip button(s) to hit.
> 
> ...


I would just buy the shows off iTunes/Amazon before I went to the trouble of editing out the commercials


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

Teeps said:


> Yes, operating the skip button is a distraction.
> I use skip mode for 30 minute comedies, but it's still a distraction.
> I only edit hour long drama type shows I.E. NCIS, Elementary; that way there is no distraction or anticipation of when to, or which of the skip button(s) to hit.
> 
> ...


That sounds insane when you can just press one button per commercial break (or even multiple buttons). You must have a lot of free time.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NYHeel said:


> That sounds insane when you can just press one button per commercial break (or even multiple buttons). You must have a lot of free time.


Unless it is 100% automated. I didn't get an answer on that.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> Unless it is 100% automated. I didn't get an answer on that.


No.
I spend less time doing it than most spend on this forum.

I have time, it's a by product of being retired.

Like I said before, I don't expect any of you to understand my madness...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Teeps said:


> No. I spend less time doing it than most spend on this forum. I have time, it's a by product of being retired. Like I said before, I don't expect any of you to understand my madness...


Can't blame us for trying! 😀

And if younger something easy and cool, we may have wanted in.


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## JBDragon (Jan 4, 2004)

Jack Mccarthy said:


> Got it on my TIVO here in the Boston area upon request. Love it! I was told that it only works between 4-12pm for those public/cable networks participating in it along with particular shows where a marker is put in so that TIVO can search for it on the Roamio. (according to TIVO support)
> 
> If this is true, why would a network like CBS, ABC, NBC or CW that also broadcast OTA decide to allow it and how long do you think it will it last? Don't wish to be a pessimist, but since I love the feature I'm not sure why public networks would agree to it since their revenue stream is from commercials.
> 
> Anyone have any theories? Are there any threads/posts that go into detail about the matter?


As far as I know TIVO gets around the commercial Skips because it's not automated by a computer but real people that mark the skip area's, and that data doesn't come in until the program is over with. This is why it's only during so many hours and so many channels. Since it's real people marking, this is how Tivo is getting around it when others like Dish Network and it's hopper has to wait a number of days before you're allowed to skip the commercials automatically. It's also why Tivo makes to hit a button after each commerial break. All a part in following the laws!!!


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## MHunter1 (Oct 11, 2007)

NYHeel said:


> That sounds insane when you can just press one button per commercial break


I consider manually editing programs to be a hobby rather than a chore, just part of the TiVo experience for me. I get a certain satisfaction out of watching my favorite shows commercial-free with no user input.



Teeps said:


> I only edit hour long drama type shows; that way there is no distraction or anticipation of which skip button to hit


Teeps described the madness of us VideoReDo users perfectly. It's the anticipation of a commercial break that ruins our enjoyment of the show and motivates us to spend some of our free time each day editing out the adverts. The benefits include a smaller file size, the option to see new episode previews SkipMode otherwise hides, and not worrying about greasing up the remote's FF and skip buttons with popcorn butter.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

JBDragon said:


> As far as I know TIVO gets around the commercial Skips because it's not automated by a computer but real people that mark the skip area's, and that data doesn't come in until the program is over with. This is why it's only during so many hours and so many channels. Since it's real people marking, this is how Tivo is getting around it when others like Dish Network and it's hopper has to wait a number of days before you're allowed to skip the commercials automatically. It's also why Tivo makes to hit a button after each commerial break. All a part in following the laws!!!


Incorrect.

TiVo has no agreement with the content holders to retransmit their programming for profit, as Dish and others do. Dish only put on the skip mode as leverage for retransmission fees - and leverage for getting Sling TV up and operating.

TiVo could easily turn on Automatic Skip mode and win ANY legal battle (eventually), but in reality, as they are moving away from Retail and towards MSO (and MSOs sell spots on cable channels), TiVo might not be inclined to fund any potential SM lawsuit (or further advancement), as frivolous and winnable as it might be.

As for the process, it is semi-automated - then fine tuned by a human.

If it were 100% human, you would not see some of the commercials/promos with the show's cast and a sponsor left in place, which is happening now.


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