# Is Clear QAM support a dead issue?



## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

Has Tivo given up on trying to support Clear QAM recording? 

I've been setting up my parents new Tivo and the Tivo can tune all the locals in clear QAM, but since there is no guide data it's pretty useless. I hooked up an antenna, but I can only reliably get ABC and Fox (they are in an apt).

I really would have thought Tivo would implement this by now. Does anyone know why Tivo does not support this? It would seem that Clear QAM plus Internet content would be a pretty good solution for many people who can get some basic cable, but don't want to pay for a big package.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Tivo never supported and never intended to suport clear QAM. A cablecard (with no matter how low a cable package) should only be a couple bucks a month.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

Why does my HD TiVo DVR need a CableCARD to display Clear QAM channels?


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

> A cablecard (with no matter how low a cable package) should only be a couple bucks a month.


Moving to a cable card requires an upgrade to a digital package that will add another $60 to the bill. This is similar to the situation at my home.



> Why does my HD TiVo DVR need a CableCARD to display Clear QAM channels?


That's pretty much the same response from the beginning. I had hoped they would change their mind at some point. Tivo's response is technically true-- the frequencies could be re-assigned. But as a practical matter, I've never seen it done. I really wish Tivo would reconsider. All they would need to do is to allow manual channel re-mappings. After all, Tivo is a service-- right?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

dbtom said:


> Moving to a cable card requires an upgrade to a digital package that will add another $60 to the bill.


I'm not sure that requirement is legal.



> _Tivo's response is technically true-- the frequencies could be re-assigned. But as a practical matter, I've never seen it done._


I assure you, it is done. I had to rescan _every day_ when I briefly attempted to use clear QAM with my TV on Fios. Other providers do it, too, although I don't know if any others are as bad as that.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

dbtom said:


> But as a practical matter, I've never seen it done. I really wish Tivo would reconsider. All they would need to do is to allow manual channel re-mappings. After all, Tivo is a service-- right?


In Metro Detroit channels are remapped constantly and people complain constantly...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19529405#post19529405


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

> Moving to a cable card requires an upgrade to a digital package that will add another $60 to the bill.


I have Comcast basic cable for about $12 per month and 2 CableCARDs at no charge. I get all my locals in digital SD and HD.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

dbtom said:


> Has Tivo given up on trying to support Clear QAM recording?


Jesus, not again. Read this thread, then come back in a day or so and say I'm sorry I asked.


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Jesus, not again. Read this thread, then come back in a day or so and say I'm sorry I asked.


I saw that thread. Last post was 6 months ago. I was hoping maybe Tivo changed its mind. It seems to be a dead issue in that Tivo will not fix it. That is disappointing.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

dbtom said:


> Moving to a cable card requires an upgrade to a digital package that will add another $60 to the bill. This is similar to the situation at my home.


If the package has digital channels they are required to give them to you upon request. I would try CSR roulette until you find one that will provide them. Another option tried is to upgrade to the more expensive package for a month and downgrade, but keep the cablecard.



> That's pretty much the same response from the beginning. I had hoped they would change their mind at some point. Tivo's response is technically true-- the frequencies could be re-assigned. But as a practical matter, I've never seen it done. I really wish Tivo would reconsider. All they would need to do is to allow manual channel re-mappings. After all, Tivo is a service-- right?


Tivo could offer manual changes, but if they haven't yet, they are extremely unlikely to. Especially when one of their competitors offers that type of service (Moxi and Windows Media Center). The real issue is it shouldn't be so dang hard to get your cable company to provide the card in the first place.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

socrplyr said:


> If the package has digital channels they are required to give them to you upon request. I would try CSR roulette until you find one that will provide them. Another option tried is to upgrade to the more expensive package for a month and downgrade, but keep the cablecard.
> 
> Tivo could offer manual changes, but if they haven't yet, they are extremely unlikely to. Especially when one of their competitors offers that type of service (Moxi and Windows Media Center). The real issue is it shouldn't be so dang hard to get your cable company to provide the card in the first place.


Yeah Media Center offers it and mine constantly has issues since FiOS seems to change frequencies weekly if not daily sometimes. I never know if my recording will be what I want or some other random clearqam station. Right now it is just for backups though so it isn't a huge deal for me, but I would never rely on clearqam recordings without a CableCARD.


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

socrplyr said:


> Tivo could offer manual changes, but if they haven't yet, they are extremely unlikely to. Especially when one of their competitors offers that type of service (Moxi and Windows Media Center). The real issue is it shouldn't be so dang hard to get your cable company to provide the card in the first place.


The issue is that the existing cable is as part of the apartment maintenance at no additional cost. If they get cable cards, they essentially move off the apartment plan and need to upgrade. I don't know if there is FCC jurisdiction over this type of stuff, but I guess probably not.

I see that other areas have changing frequencies-- I just know that this one has not.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

dbtom said:


> Tivo's response is technically true-- the frequencies could be re-assigned. But as a practical matter, I've never seen it done.


My cable provider has reassigned channels a couple times but somehow the channel maps didn't update properly in time so for a couple days my channels showed up as no signal until they could download the new VCT.

Both S cards did the same thing. Weird.

As such I don't think they shuffle around frequencies that much.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

dbtom said:


> I saw that thread. Last post was 6 months ago. I was hoping maybe Tivo changed its mind. It seems to be a dead issue in that Tivo will not fix it. That is disappointing.


LOL, you made my day. Get in line behind the Premiere owners (including me now ).


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dbtom said:


> I saw that thread. Last post was 6 months ago. I was hoping maybe Tivo changed its mind. It seems to be a dead issue in that Tivo will not fix it. That is disappointing.


Using the word* FIX *is inappropriate for this issue as TiVo never said they would do it at any time, so nothing to fix, there was a hint once that the original Series 3 would make a change to use only one M cable card (and record two channels at the same time) and that never happened, maybe for good reason. I can think of all the mad TiVo users when their program(s) did not record because the cable co changed the mapping, the mapping is not public info and using the station ID as Windows does is far from foolproof and also TiVo does not have all that computer power as Windows Media Center has. You asking for something that may sell a few extra TiVos but not good enough money in it for TiVo to do anything. Remember KISS


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

lessd said:


> Using the word* FIX *is inappropriate for this issue as TiVo never said they would do it at any time, so nothing to fix, there was a hint once that the original Series 3 would make a change to use only one M cable card (and record two channels at the same time) and that never happened, maybe for good reason. I can think of all the mad TiVo users when their program(s) did not record because the cable co changed the mapping, the mapping is not public info and using the station ID as Windows does is far from foolproof and also TiVo does not have all that computer power as Windows Media Center has. You asking for something that may sell a few extra TiVos but not good enough money in it for TiVo to do anything. Remember KISS


Fair enough to criticize the word "fix". The first time I ran across the Tivo mapping issue was pre-cable card days in 2003. My brother-in-law's apartment building had channel mappings that were different than what Tivo showed. Tribune wouldn't correct the guide. Since there was no way to manually map channels he sold the Tivo on eBay. So when I think of the mapping issue I always think of it fixing that broken guide. The issues are different here but I still think of not being able to create custom maps as a problem. But perhaps you are right-- it's a feature!


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

dbtom said:


> I don't know if there is FCC jurisdiction over this type of stuff, but I guess probably not.


Of course there is.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dbtom said:


> Fair enough to criticize the word "fix". The first time I ran across the Tivo mapping issue was pre-cable card days in 2003. My brother-in-law's apartment building had channel mappings that were different than what Tivo showed. Tribune wouldn't correct the guide. Since there was no way to manually map channels he sold the Tivo on eBay. So when I think of the mapping issue I always think of it fixing that broken guide. The issues are different here but I still think of not being able to create custom maps as a problem. But perhaps you are right-- it's a feature!


TiVo gets ding on this form for not meeting their promises quickly, or sometimes not at all, so I was trying to give TiVo a break on this issue as there are many other issues I think TiVo is working on, like making more TP/TPXL menus in HD etc. The CSRs in tech support cost TiVo enough that I would guess they don't want to have a new feature that will cause more calls with little to show in return, as in more sales etc.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I can only get the locals on qam and there already mapped to there local ota channel number.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Tivo's original wording was something like cable cards may be required for digital stations. That certainly implies under some circumstances a cable card isn't required for digital stations.

Tivo "fixed" it by changing the wording to state cable cards are required for digital stations.



lessd said:


> Using the word* FIX *is inappropriate for this issue as TiVo never said they would do it at any time, so nothing to fix, there was a hint once that the original Series 3 would make a change to use only one M cable card (and record two channels at the same time) and that never happened, maybe for good reason. I can think of all the mad TiVo users when their program(s) did not record because the cable co changed the mapping, the mapping is not public info and using the station ID as Windows does is far from foolproof and also TiVo does not have all that computer power as Windows Media Center has. You asking for something that may sell a few extra TiVos but not good enough money in it for TiVo to do anything. Remember KISS


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dbtom said:


> I saw that thread. Last post was 6 months ago. I was hoping maybe Tivo changed its mind. It seems to be a dead issue in that Tivo will not fix it. That is disappointing.


there is nothing broken.  Give it a rest, please


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> Jesus, not again. Read this thread, then come back in a day or so and say I'm sorry I asked.


Hey! that was my thread! I fondly remember it from back before I decided to surrender to the cable companies, get cablecards, and ended up almost doubling the cost of my cable TV service, lol. Call it the hidden cost of Tivo ownership.

It seems to me the issue has become more and more irrelevant as the cablecos move toward encrypting everything. While it's true you can still get the local channels, and probably always will be able to due to legal requirements, the incentive probably isn't there for Tivo to accommodate that market. It's a niche feature and that niche is likely to decrease over time. It's unfortunate as I don't believe it's that much work involved, but Tivo does not show a desire to program niche features.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

smbaker said:


> It's a niche feature and that niche is likely to decrease over time. It's unfortunate as I don't believe it's that much work involved, but Tivo does not show a desire to program niche features.


you can believe that, but it simply is not true. For TiVo to put this out as a feature, TiVo would then need to support via CSR calls along with any maintenance in the code base. It simply would involve significant resources for TiVo.

So open source folks or companies as big as Microsoft or companies that do not expect to have to provide much support can throw in features like this but for TiVo it would be a drag on their bottom line for little benefit to their customer base


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you can believe that, but it simply is not true. For TiVo to put this out as a feature, TiVo would then need to support via CSR calls along with any maintenance in the code base. It simply would involve significant resources for TiVo.


I meant from a technical standpoint. The necessary data structures are probably already there. From a UI perspective, the UI already has a 'channels I receive' screen with checkboxes; it would be a natural extension to add an advanced button that allowed a customer to associate guide data to a channel that had no guide data associated with it. Channels that already had guide data (i.e. encrypted channels) would be disabled from this setting to prevent users from screwing them up. It's not like we're fundamentally changing the nature of the DVR here.

As I said before, it's a niche feature for what's likely a declining niche, and Tivo isn't going to implement it, so the discussion is rather moot.

Obviously any new feature requires CSR support and code maintenance. That's true regardless of what the feature is. I fail to see how that argument applies more to this feature than it would to any other feature. Tivo is in the business of producing DVRs and DVR software. Implementing new features is their business. It's what they do.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

smbaker said:


> Obviously any new feature requires CSR support and code maintenance. That's true regardless of what the feature is. I fail to see how that argument applies more to this feature than it would to any other feature. Tivo is in the business of producing DVRs and DVR software. Implementing new features is their business. It's what they do.


Letting people setup their channel maps manually can lead to nightmare of where to find this data. For instance, http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/lineup_web/US:98052#lineup_3752285 for my FiOS lineup is AWFUL and who knows where the other 90+% of the channels are? I tried using this data to tune w/temporarily watch and tune w/my TV when my TiVo HD's drive went belly up. I gave up pretty quickly.

When a channel changes. I'd suspect that people would have randomly missed recordings and those on the wrong channel.

The cost of the phone call to CSR could cost TiVo more than the monthly fee. I used to work in software and there was always the problem w/cheap software or hardware (say <$40 MSRP) and a single call to tech support blowing the entire profit for that unit of the product. It's wouldn't be sustainable to have this feature given the volume of calls TiVo could receive.

The random channel changes almost totally defeats the purpose of a TiVo, of just being able to set it (a season pass) and pretty much forget it.

There are people out there who think TiVo is "complicated" already. My parents who are horrible w/technology are one of them. They can barely rearrange their season passes via SPM. There are many more like them out there.

One my friends who is a programmer by trade and went to MIT (so she's no dummy) has asked me several times about her Series 2 TiVo and "inability" to use it on her cable provider because they are or recently went all digital. After looking up info about her provider, I've had to remind her 2x that she needs to use an IR blaster in conjunction with set top box or DTA from the cable co.

You expect Joe Average user who cheaped out by not renting a CableCARD to not overly burden TiVo w/support calls and not bellyache about not being able to find accurate, up to date and complete channel mappings? The media likes to sensationalize these things w/negative headlines and stories.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

cwerdna said:


> Letting people setup their channel maps manually can lead to nightmare of where to find this data. For instance, http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/lineup_web/US:98052#lineup_3752285 for my FiOS lineup is AWFUL and who knows where the other 90+% of the channels are? I tried using this data to tune w/temporarily watch and tune w/my TV when my TiVo HD's drive went belly up. I gave up pretty quickly.
> 
> When a channel changes. I'd suspect that people would have randomly missed recordings and those on the wrong channel.
> 
> ...


My point exactly on this issue.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

lew said:


> Tivo's original wording was something like cable cards may be required for digital stations. That certainly implies under some circumstances a cable card isn't required for digital stations.
> 
> Tivo "fixed" it by changing the wording to state cable cards are required for digital stations.


OTA are also "Digital Stations" and do NOT require any cable cards. So OTA, no card; cable, requires card. So some circumstance do not require cards.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

smbaker said:


> I meant from a technical standpoint.


hackers even tried to implement it and found they faced the hurdle of having to redo it completely as a hack every time the map needed a change. Different tech issues but they were still there.

Why you can not see this is about making changes to the core of the functionality - channel listings/guide data/scheduler is beyond me.

so like I said you can believe this was a simple thing - but it never was.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

cwerdna said:


> Letting people setup their channel maps manually can lead to nightmare of where to find this data.


We're only talking about four channels here (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX). Those four channels have obvious OTA counterparts in nearly every market. It wouldn't be 100% accurate as affiliates have some control over programming, but it would be sufficient for most users.

Anything beyond those four networks (and possibly PBS) will soon end up encrypted if it isn't already, so there's little point in a solution that goes beyond mapping OTA guide data to clear QAM channels.



ZeoTivo said:


> hackers even tried to implement it and found they faced the hurdle of having to redo it completely as a hack every time the map needed a change.


This makes very little sense. If it can be special-purposed, then a table-based general-purpose implementation can also be done.

Hacking is not the same as writing it in-house. Hackers have to maintain compatibility with Tivo data structures and unexpected future Tivo modifications. Tivo can engineer in support for whatever features they want.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

smbaker said:


> We're only talking about four channels here (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX). Those four channels have obvious OTA counterparts in nearly every market. It wouldn't be 100% accurate as affiliates have some control over programming, but it would be sufficient for most users.


I think I'm kind of confused. Are you saying that there are only those four channels available if you use an antenna only? Or those four channels plus however many PBS channels? If so, I must be doing something wrong then. I've got 57 local channels according to the TiVo/Tribune Broadcast (Antenna) channel lineup for my area.



smbaker said:


> Anything beyond those four networks (and possibly PBS) will soon end up encrypted if it isn't already, so there's little point in a solution that goes beyond mapping OTA guide data to clear QAM channels...


If the cable company encrypted _any_ those 57 local channels, I would think that cable company would be in BIG trouble!


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

orangeboy said:


> I think I'm kind of confused. Are you saying that there are only those four channels available if you use an antenna only? Or those four channels plus however many PBS channels? If so, I must be doing something wrong then. I've got 57 local channels according to the TiVo/Tribune Broadcast (Antenna) channel lineup for my area.
> 
> If the cable company encrypted _any_ those 57 local channels, I would think that cable company would be in BIG trouble!


I believe only CBS, NBC, ABC, CW, FOX, WB and PBS are the only one's considered local by the FCC. Any any other can be encrypted


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

smbaker said:


> This makes very little sense. If it can be special-purposed, then a table-based general-purpose implementation can also be done.
> 
> Hacking is not the same as writing it in-house. Hackers have to maintain compatibility with Tivo data structures and unexpected future Tivo modifications. Tivo can engineer in support for whatever features they want.


the point is that since it is a change at the very core of what a TiVo DVR does that hackers found this was not an *easy* change. It is simply not a small or easy change because of where it falls in the functionality.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

caddyroger said:


> I believe only CBS, NBC, ABC, CW, FOX, MB and PBS are the only one's considered local by the FCC. Any any other can be encrypted


That's what I meant as well when I said 4 networks + PBS. I wasn't counting CW as I wasn't sure it was a "real" broadcast network. What the heck is MB though?

The trend I've seen is toward the direction of as much encryption as is permitted by law. Thus, any clear-QAM solution would be based on the long term assumption that only those channels required by law to be clear-QAM would be clear-QAM. That's why I refer to it as a niche feature for a declining niche. Someone might have 57 clear-QAM channels today, but they might not have them next month.



ZeoTivo said:


> the point is that since it is a change at the very core of what a TiVo DVR does that hackers found this was not an easy change. It is simply not a small or easy change because of where it falls in the functionality.


'small' and 'easy' depend on the assumption of what party is doing the work and what practical ability they have to modify the system. You seem to be focused on the location (the 'core' of the system) as the sole indicator of the difficulty of the change. That's not necessarily true. For example, adding an integer field to a core data structure may be immensely difficult for a hacker, but trivial for a developer who is able to get his changes integrated into the mainstream system.


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

It doesn't look like Tivo has a means to manually correct wrong Tribune data so it ma be harder than I thought.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

caddyroger said:


> I believe only CBS, NBC, ABC, CW, FOX, WB and PBS are the only one's considered local by the FCC.


There are certain rules that only apply to recognized networks, but I'm pretty sure this isn't one of them. It's any broadcast station -- network affiliation is irrelevant. So in addition to your list, you have MyTV and Ion affiliates, and various independents.

Oh, and The WB doesn't exist anymore.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> Of course there is.


Yeah, but why would they actively support an idea that essentially gives them the finger?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> There are certain rules that only apply to recognized networks, but I'm pretty sure this isn't one of them. It's any broadcast station -- network affiliation is irrelevant. So in addition to your list, you have MyTV and Ion affiliates, and various independents.


The rule is, it has to be locally broadcast OTA. It's being local somewhere else ( i.e. Superstations like WTBS and WGN) doesn't count.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

socrplyr said:


> Tivo never supported and never intended to suport clear QAM. A cablecard (with no matter how low a cable package) should only be a couple bucks a month.


Nor should they. It's a very bad idea.

It really should not even be a couple of bucks a month, although on many CATV systems it is. What the FCC *should* do is limit the amount of money a CATV system can extract from the consumer. Say, no more than $30 over the life of the outlet subscription. The CableCards were never meant to be a revenue strream for the CATV companies.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

caddyroger said:


> I believe only CBS, NBC, ABC, CW, FOX, WB and PBS are the only one's considered local by the FCC. Any any other can be encrypted


So can the local channels, but *ONLY* if the CATV system supplies STBs to all subscribers. The only hard and fast rule AFAIK, is no CCI byte > 0 on local channels, if they are carried at all. If current trends continue, I fully expect most CATV systems to be 100% SDV within the next 10 years.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

socrplyr said:


> Tivo never supported and never intended to suport clear QAM. A cablecard (with no matter how low a cable package) should only be a couple bucks a month.


Yes, but TWC at least requires that you subscribe to a digital tier to get a cable card.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Then subscribe to the digital tier, get the cable cards, and cancel the digital tier. How are they going to 'force' you to return the cable cards, as long as you keep paying the rental fee?


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

In the last two years, I've only ever had one of the six clear QAM channels I receive change locations. Once. All the other five have been the same the whole time. I'm another that would love to be able to map the channels to guide data. As it is, I set up repeated manual recordings.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

smbaker said:


> For example, adding an integer field to a core data structure may be immensely difficult for a hacker, but trivial for a developer who is able to get his changes integrated into the mainstream system.


yes, but when that field will be acted upon by the core functionality of the system then testing the change is not trivial.
When that filed will be visible to end users than figuring out the best way to present that and preparing for support issues is not trivial
when a third party will be supplying the data for that field and change to the data means the end user than will need to redo their part, then documentation is not trivial.
in short even hackers found the feature to be a PITA and they did not have to do all the above.

You present something as trivial but do not provide much detail to back up that assertion.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Is it really necessary to keep beating this dead horse again? It's not going to happen, ever.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)




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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Is it really necessary to keep beating this dead horse again? It's not going to happen, ever.


yep. I just got my System Engineer hackles raised by yet another pronouncement of "It's easy, just add a table"


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## cogx (Sep 23, 2006)

dbtom said:


> It doesn't look like Tivo has a means to manually correct wrong Tribune data so it ma be harder than I thought.


DING DING DING.

The issue of QAM mapping, as many have said, is a _*long*_ dead issue.

However, the far larger problem, which still happens on weekly basis for someone, somewhere, is the issue of TMS not being able to keep up with the changes the cable companies make to their lineups; or in many cases I've had myself and also read about on this site over the past year, the problem of the cable companies not correcting their own printed (in office/bill insert) and/or on-line channel lineups and thus TMS is introducing errors based on that faulty information.

Many of us consider it a major design flaw that TiVo does not have a mechanism to quickly correct the TMS guide data station-to-channel mapping, *in-house*, but clearly after all these years they aren't going to do anything about addressing this problem. One might suppose had TiVo foreseen how problematic it was going to be to solely rely on TMS to have error-free station-to-channel lineup data, maybe they would have come up with a different solution which perhaps would have also led to the customer being able to modify the mapping ourselves, but that ship apparently sailed many years ago.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cogx said:


> is the issue of TMS not being able to keep up with the changes the cable companies make to their lineups
> 
> Many of us consider it a major design flaw that TiVo does not have a mechanism to quickly correct the TMS guide data station-to-channel mapping, *in-house*, but clearly after all these years they aren't going to do anything about addressing this problem.


So TMS with its core business of providing accurate guide data can not keep up - how is TiVo supposed to staff to do that in house and not have that be a massive expense?


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## cogx (Sep 23, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So TMS with its core business of providing accurate guide data can not keep up - how is TiVo supposed to staff to do that in house and not have that be a massive expense?


By believing the customers, as we fill out TiVo's lineup error web form.
Instead, TiVo just takes our information and passes it along to TMS and from there it can take anywhere from two business days (it sometimes happens) to, well, weeks or even months (as documented in dozens of posts on this site, including my own).

I'm not even laying all the blame on TMS either. Given the fact my own cable company can't keep their own lineup documentation current and error-free, that's why my position is that ultimately TiVo _should_ have designed their system so that each of us had some mechanism (I say via our TiVo web accounts, because I do agree in-hardware was never a good idea) to correct our station-to-channel mapping on our own. I still don't fully know why they couldn't still implement such a system, unless their licensing with TMS legally prevents them from doing so, other than as many people *constantly* point out that TiVo just doesn't have the resources.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cogx said:


> By believing the customers, as we fill out TiVo's lineup error web form.


that would cut out a lot of the resources if TiVo did not do much to verify things BUT of course that would affect other folks using the same guide - likely mostly for good though 

Then they just need the resources that can massage the guide data correctly

Interesting idea - you listening TiVo


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes, but when that field will be acted upon by the core functionality of the system then testing the change is not trivial.


You and I aren't going to agree on this, so I'm not sure what the point of continued arguing is other than to feed your desire to argue. You can state that I have no evidence that it's easy, but you also have no evidence that it's difficult (aside from this argument about 'hackers', which does not apply for reasons I've already specified). How you and I define 'easy' seems to be at the root of the problem. I've made invasive changes to Linux kernels that I would describe as 'easy'. Location of the change does not directly correlate with difficulty.



ZeoTivo said:


> You present something as trivial but do not provide much detail to back up that assertion.


If you can quote me where I said making this change was 'trivial', then please do. I said I didn't think there was much work involved, and I stand by that.

Sometimes I think you pick threads to argue in solely for the sake of argument.

EDIT: Now that I go back and look, I can't even find a place in this thread where I described it as 'easy', let alone 'trivial' or 'simple'.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

mattack said:


> Then subscribe to the digital tier, get the cable cards, and cancel the digital tier. How are they going to 'force' you to return the cable cards, as long as you keep paying the rental fee?


What they do is force you to continue paying until the cards are returned.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

cogx said:


> By believing the customers, as we fill out TiVo's lineup error web form.
> Instead, TiVo just takes our information and passes it along to TMS and from there it can take anywhere from two business days (it sometimes happens) to, well, weeks or even months (as documented in dozens of posts on this site, including my own).
> 
> I'm not even laying all the blame on TMS either. Given the fact my own cable company can't keep their own lineup documentation current and error-free, that's why my position is that ultimately TiVo _should_ have designed their system so that each of us had some mechanism (I say via our TiVo web accounts, because I do agree in-hardware was never a good idea) to correct our station-to-channel mapping on our own. I still don't fully know why they couldn't still implement such a system, unless their licensing with TMS legally prevents them from doing so, other than as many people *constantly* point out that TiVo just doesn't have the resources.


Still think it would be easier to just tell the TiVo that the guide data on channel X is identical to channel Y, but that it contains HD content.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

smbaker said:


> You and I aren't going to agree on this, so I'm not sure what the point of continued arguing is other than to feed your desire to argue. You can state that I have no evidence that it's easy, but you also have no evidence that it's difficult (aside from this argument about 'hackers', which does not apply for reasons I've already specified). How you and I define 'easy' seems to be at the root of the problem. I've made invasive changes to Linux kernels that I would describe as 'easy'. Location of the change does not directly correlate with difficulty.
> .


You're missing the point. Examples posted in this thread, and the experience of hackers, suggest at least some cable systems change the channel assignments without notice and often enough to be an issue.

What's difficult is doing it in a way that minimizes the support issues when shows are missed due to changes. A system that lets the user manually map channels will inherently lead to support issues.



Stormspace said:


> What they do is force you to continue paying until the cards are returned.


The cable system can de-activate the cable card. The customer isn't paying for a digital tier? The customer shouldn't be receiving digital stations.

OTA stations may be the exception.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

lew said:


> You're missing the point. Examples posted in this thread, and the experience of hackers, suggest at least some cable systems change the channel assignments without notice and often enough to be an issue.
> 
> What's difficult is doing it in a way that minimizes the support issues when shows are missed due to changes. A system that lets the user manually map channels will inherently lead to support issues.
> 
> ...


I believe the OTA stations were the issue. Having the cable card allows you to map the OTA HD channels, but you must pay for the digital tier to do that, otherwise you end up with channels that can't be recorded short of using a manual recording.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

smbaker said:


> It's a niche feature and that niche is likely to decrease over time. It's unfortunate as I don't believe it's that much work involved, but Tivo does not show a desire to program niche features.





smbaker said:


> You and I aren't going to agree on this, so I'm not sure what the point of continued arguing
> 
> If you can quote me where I said making this change was 'trivial', then please do. I said I didn't think there was much work involved, and I stand by that.
> 
> EDIT: Now that I go back and look, I can't even find a place in this thread where I described it as 'easy', let alone 'trivial' or 'simple'.


- not that much work - easy - trivial 
they actually amount to the same thing. I am not arguing with you per se - I am disagreeing with the few folks in this thread who feel the change is not much work based on the idea it is just a table change. I simply wanted folks to think about all that would be involved which is far more than adding some table.

And the core functionality here is the use of guide data, channel listing and season passes wishlist to schedule and then do recordings. This is the heart of what the DVR does and even a 2% drop in reliability would be monumentally bad for TiVo who has a reputation for very reliable scheduling(assuming correct Guide data). That is why this is the kind of change that would have to be done with much thought and work on TiVo inc.'s part and why it was something that hackers could not easily expose for end users to change themselves. In other words there is no API being used here - this is integrated code.

anyhow, I have said what I wanted to say.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

There are a small number of posters who subscribe to a cable system which neither supplies cable cards nor encrypt any channels. Typically private cable systems in an apartment. Tivo loses those customers. It's a shame Tribune/tivo can't create a lineup for those potential customers which maps the channel assignments. Probably not enough potential customers to bother with.

There is another group of people who don't want to use a cable card because they're getting "bonus" channels. Channels they're not entitled to view but which aren't being encrypted. Support issues when the cable system encrypts more channels.

The other group is only asking to be able to map channels they should be able to receive without a cable card (OTA stations). I don't know how many people are willing to pay for a tivo who:
can't get OTA stations with an antenna.
Who are only subscribing to cable for basic OTA stations. 
Probably customers on a budget.

Doesn't sound like a big enough market.

TO answer the OPs question--It's an issue that's 100&#37; DEAD.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> - not that much work - easy - trivial
> they actually amount to the same thing. I am not arguing with you per se - I am disagreeing with the few folks in this thread who feel the change is not much work based on the idea it is just a table change. I simply wanted folks to think about all that would be involved which is far more than adding some table.
> 
> And the core functionality here is the use of guide data, channel listing and season passes wishlist to schedule and then do recordings. This is the heart of what the DVR does and even a 2% drop in reliability would be monumentally bad for TiVo who has a reputation for very reliable scheduling(assuming correct Guide data). That is why this is the kind of change that would have to be done with much thought and work on TiVo inc.'s part and why it was something that hackers could not easily expose for end users to change themselves. In other words there is no API being used here - this is integrated code.
> ...


Post processing for mapped channels would be trivial. Everytime the TiVo downloads guide data it processes it in some way. Adding mapped guide data would only be as complex as TiVo has made the database. In it simplest form TiVo would add a line in the database for the new channel and append the data from the mapped channel to that line. I'm certain that there may be a few issues regarding normalization, but this isn't rocket science.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> - not that much work - easy - trivial
> they actually amount to the same thing.


Well, trivial is a synonym of "insignificant", and was not the claim I was making. "not much work" and "easy" are both very relative terms. I consider something to be not much work if it takes a week or less of dedicated developer time, not including whatever quality-control testing it needs to go as part of integration.



ZeoTivo said:


> I am not arguing with you per se - I am disagreeing with the few folks in this thread who feel the change is not much work based on the idea it is just a table change.


Ok, I think we do have some common ground then. 

Certainly it would need a place in the UI that felt natural to the user and didn't turn into a CSR nightmare of trying to explain it. It would need protections to make it difficult for the user to do something stupid.

In the end, it comes down to a cost/benefit analysis, as do all features. There just aren't enough users who need it to justify spending the money implementing this feature, and to spend the money to advertise to make that pool of users aware the feature existed, and to educate the users on how to use the feature.

Personally though, I would dearly love to ditch these miserable cablecards. I just don't see it as practical. There only needs to be one cablecard-only channel that I watch to require me to use them.

EDIT: What I really wish we had was a "power user" menu. Put a disclaimer on it that you get no assistance, flag the box as power-used so CSRs can disavow assistance, and let us do the things we want to do.


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

smbaker said:


> EDIT: What I really wish we had was a "power user" menu. Put a disclaimer on it that you get no assistance, flag the box as power-used so CSRs can disavow assistance, and let us do the things we want to do.


Exactly. I don't think Tivo should not implement features because it would confuse the average user. Heck, I've walked into a number of Tivo homes who didn't realize they could power-on their TV and control the volume with the Tivo remote. I don't think most people even configure their "channels I receive" properly. I've never called Tivo customer support and don't plan on it in the future.


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

lew said:


> The other group is only asking to be able to map channels they should be able to receive without a cable card (OTA stations). I don't know how many people are willing to pay for a tivo who:
> can't get OTA stations with an antenna.
> Who are only subscribing to cable for basic OTA stations.
> Probably customers on a budget.


For a while Tivo was advertising the S2 as the only analog cable DVR and you could save money. This is a similar analogy-- an HD DVR that does not require you to upgrade to a digital package. It's actually more ideal now since you can supplement your basic cable with Netflix and other Internet-based content. It's kind of a partial cord cut for those of us in apartment buildings who can't really cut the cord.

But you are right... it seems dead


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> that would cut out a lot of the resources if TiVo did not do much to verify things BUT of course that would affect other folks using the same guide - likely mostly for good though
> 
> Interesting idea - you listening TiVo


I would imagine the mischief that someone could cause by changing the guide data (incorrectly) for everybody in a given zip. At best it could be only for your TiVo(s) in your home, then that can have a lot of problems also. It would be hard to implement a manual and automatic guide service that adds and removes and changes ch numbers some by the user some by the TiVo service. IE say CBS moves from ch 233 to 733, I find this out two days before TiVo does and manual move the TiVo guide that was on 233 to 733, now TiVo finds out about the change and puts in new info for ch 233 on 233 but on my TiVo that info now goes to 733 because I set that ch 733 to manual, I can't go on as my mind is going to explode.


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## cogx (Sep 23, 2006)

lessd said:


> I would imagine the mischief that someone could cause by changing the guide data (incorrectly) for everybody in a given zip.


You mean like a TMS employee who makes an erroneous change seemingly out-of-the-blue (regardless of what percentage blame lies with that person versus the provider) that adversely affects not just all TiVo owners in that particular zip code (for a specific provider/build), but SchedulesDirect subscribers (many with HTPCs) as well?

Indeed.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> Yes, but TWC at least requires that you subscribe to a digital tier to get a cable card.


You're right, they do. Hmmm. You know, someone at the FCC might well consider that to be antithetical to the wide deployment of CableCards, a position the FCC has publicly stated it does not wish to tolerate. A letter to the FCC pointing this out might well have very positive results. I might even go so far as to consider they might demand CableCards be available to all tiers, even basic. Of course, come 2012, it might become a moot question.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lew said:


> There are a small number of posters who subscribe to a cable system which neither supplies cable cards nor encrypt any channels. Typically private cable systems in an apartment. Tivo loses those customers.


True. Very few systems are not required by the FCC to support CableCards. Apartment complexes and hotels are the main examples.



lew said:


> It's a shame Tribune/tivo can't create a lineup for those potential customers which maps the channel assignments. Probably not enough potential customers to bother with.


Well, I wouldn't put it that way. They do fall though the cracks, though.



lew said:


> The other group is only asking to be able to map channels they should be able to receive without a cable card (OTA stations). I don't know how many people are willing to pay for a tivo who:
> can't get OTA stations with an antenna.
> Who are only subscribing to cable for basic OTA stations.
> Probably customers on a budget.
> ...


The main point, really, is that separable security was a positive goal of the FCC, the CATV providers, and Consumer Equipment manufacturers, with a lot of input from CATV subscribers who for several reasons did not want an STB. The entire idea behind CableCards was essentially that eventually every customer would have a security device installed. When the three groups got together, though, and started slicing and dicing over what each wanted, all sorts of exceptions and special considerations popped up.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

smbaker said:


> EDIT: What I really wish we had was a "power user" menu. Put a disclaimer on it that you get no assistance, flag the box as power-used so CSRs can disavow assistance, and let us do the things we want to do.


Just make sure the "Power User Menu" has a "reset to factory" (but I guess it already does - "CDE") then the customer assistance it to have the CDE.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

lessd said:


> I would imagine the *mischief* that someone could cause by changing the guide data (incorrectly) for everybody in a given zip.





cogx said:


> You mean like a TMS employee who makes an *erroneous* change...


mischievous < > erroneous


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

dbtom said:


> It doesn't look like Tivo has a means to manually correct wrong Tribune data so it ma be harder than I thought.


I know TMS has come up multiple times but the problem is made worse by


> *Tribune Media Services*, which provides program guide data to TiVo, *does not collect tuning frequency data from cable providers*.


 from http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/298.

Agreed w/the other people not understanding where the "four channels" business came from. In the Silicon Dust link I brought up earlier (http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/lineup_web/US:98052#lineup_3772011), it lists "60 programs" for FiOS w/numerous "unknown" channels. Hundreds of other channels are missing. Encrypted? At unknown locations? Who knows?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> What they do is force you to continue paying until the cards are returned.


I presume you mean paying for the digital tier.

Are you being hypothetical, or is that an actual thing that happens in various areas?

The opposite -- getting then cancelling digital cable and still paying for just the cable cards -- IS something that people here have described as actually working, in various areas.

I'm not saying that's a good solution, but it's a workaround for some.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

mattack said:


> I presume you mean paying for the digital tier.
> 
> Are you being hypothetical, or is that an actual thing that happens in various areas?
> 
> ...


Here at least you cant have CC's without paying for digital.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> The main point, really, is that separable security was a positive goal of the FCC, the CATV providers, and Consumer Equipment manufacturers, with a lot of input from CATV subscribers who for several reasons did not want an STB. The entire idea behind CableCards was essentially that eventually every customer would have a security device installed. When the three groups got together, though, and started slicing and dicing over what each wanted, all sorts of exceptions and special considerations popped up.


You're missing the point, or I'm misreading your post. The issue is tivo won't work with a cable system which doesn't use any security on some or all digital channels. At least for a customer who doesn't subscribe to any encrypted channels. I don't think the FCC is requiring cable systems use any security, only that any security being used is separable. TV sets work fine with unencrypted channels, tivo doesn't. Tivo works with cable cards. TV sets equipped with a cable card slot don't work in cable systems that require tuning adapters.

TV sets have a QAM tuner. Tivo has a QAM tuner. Tivo decided not to use the QAM tuner (without using a cable card even for channels not encrypted.)


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## cogx (Sep 23, 2006)

Jeeters said:


> mischievous < > erroneous


Correct. Hence, my use of the word 'like' to compare an actual scenario, which has been happening for years, to the hypothetical scenario offered up without any details as to how it would actually come about.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lew said:


> TV sets work fine with unencrypted channels, tivo doesn't. Tivo works with cable cards.
> 
> TV sets have a QAM tuner. Tivo has a QAM tuner. Tivo decided not to use the QAM tuner (without using a cable card even for channels not encrypted.)


actually a TiVo will do exactly as a TV does and display the channel with no problem using the QAM tuner.

for a TV set - if the gudiee data is wrong it is no big deal - for a TiVo the problem is no guide data mapped to the channel so the real DVR functionality of the TiVo indeed has no ability to work for that channel. If the guide data is inaccurate for the TiVo then that is almost worse than no guide data since recordings are no longer reliable.
The one reliable mapping is in the cable card and TiVo chose to keep things simple.


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## cogx (Sep 23, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> .
> The one reliable mapping is in the cable card and TiVo chose to keep things simple.


However, the TMS station-to-channel mapping still has to be correct, _regardless_ of having CableCARDs installed, otherwise one still can't make use of the non-manual recording features which are pretty much the whole point of having a TiVo. That's why I keep harping on how I can't understand why TiVo allows such a critical, single point of failure to rest _solely_ in the hands of a 3rd party company. Especially, when TMS can't rely at all on the cable providers to provide them accurate data about their own services.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cogx said:


> However, the TMS station-to-channel mapping still has to be correct, _regardless_ of having CableCARDs installed, otherwise one still can't make use of the non-manual recording features which are pretty much the whole point of having a TiVo. That's why I keep harping on how I can't understand why TiVo allows such a critical, single point of failure to rest _solely_ in the hands of a 3rd party company. Especially, when TMS can't rely at all on the cable providers to provide them accurate data about their own services.


can not speak for everyone but TWC in NC has been accurate and reliable* since the day I got my TiVo.

aside from the common issues like comedy central not pegging daily show repeats as repeats. That is the kind of guide data massage I would want from TiVo but it has little to do with guide to channel mapping and then a cable card would tell the TiVo how to tune channel 110 say.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

San Jose CA (SF Bay Area) here. Comcast here is very cool with giving you cable cards with just their $16/month basic package. No trickery needed, just tell them that you just want basic but want cable cards so you can get local channels in HD, and they will give it to you, for $1.70/month for a multi-stream card. I don't think they roll single stream cards any more.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

cogx said:


> However, the TMS station-to-channel mapping still has to be correct, _regardless_ of having CableCARDs installed, otherwise one still can't make use of the non-manual recording features which are pretty much the whole point of having a TiVo. That's why I keep harping on how I can't understand why TiVo allows such a critical, single point of failure to rest _solely_ in the hands of a 3rd party company. Especially, when TMS can't rely at all on the cable providers to provide them accurate data about their own services.





ZeoTiVo said:


> can not speak for everyone but TWC in NC has been accurate and reliable* since the day I got my TiVo.
> 
> aside from the common issues like comedy central not pegging daily show repeats as repeats. That is the kind of guide data massage I would want from TiVo but it has little to do with guide to channel mapping and then a cable card would tell the TiVo how to tune channel 110 say.


Got to agree with Zeo here. Channel mapping from TMS has been dead on since day one for me (BHN Cocoa, FL). I'm sure someone somewhere has had a problem, but it I haven't seen a ton of complaints about it. Plus it is easier to have to deal with a single (or few) possible points of failure and a single place to correct it, rather than the raving public that just wants it to work.

You got to keep in mind here that Tivo is still a niche device. and the number of people that would use manual channel mapping is a very small number. So what you have is a niche device that is less useful to a small population and you get a very small number of indeed. figure in the cost of the inevitable support calls and complaints because Oprah didn't record and I can see why it is a very low priority (maybe no priority).


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you can believe that, but it simply is not true. For TiVo to put this out as a feature, TiVo would then need to support via CSR calls along with any maintenance in the code base. It simply would involve significant resources for TiVo.


Bullcrap. They've implemented several unsupported features before, some requiring a code to activate.

Call support on a non-TiVo wireless adapter or a generic eSATA drive on a series 3. You'll be told "We're sorry, that's not supported." In fact, esata was first enabled via a backdoor code and was totally unsupported.

They could easily implement this with a code to activate. As you pointed out it has been done with a simple hack, the reason the simple hack isn't simple is because of TiVo's chain of trust preventing hacks. A prom modded TiVo can do this with no problems...

I'm not arguing that they should implement it, but it wouldn't be that difficult.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

In my market, Comcast passes PSIP data and my TiVo HD has properly mapped the channels to the correct OTA channel since day one. Since the guide data is already there for OTA, I'm a whisker away from having this work without having to place an undue burden on TiVo support.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> Bullcrap. They've implemented several unsupported features before, some requiring a code to activate.


not one of those features came anywhere close to the core functionality of scheduling and doing recordings. The ones you listed TiVo actually would rather not have happened at all. eg it was not an actual business decision to release those as unsupported features. Smart folks figured out the codes the developers had left behind.

as to the hack - even after the chain of trust was stopped by the PROM hack - hackers did not have an easy way to let end users change the mapping, this was obviously more than a table but a new function for a user interface to the mapping.

ETA - lots of talk in AVS forum on inconsistent PSIP data across the country


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

sbourgeo said:


> In my market, Comcast passes PSIP data and my TiVo HD has properly mapped the channels to the correct OTA channel since day one. Since the guide data is already there for OTA, I'm a whisker away from having this work without having to place an undue burden on TiVo support.


I'm in the exact same situation, and that's why I created the original QAM-mapping thread years ago. It just seemed so outrageously silly -- my QAM Fox channel is 34-1, it's been this way since day 1 without change, the Tivo knows it's 34-1, the Tivo knows the guide data for OTA 34-1, the guide data for OTA 34-1 is identical to QAM 34-1, and yet the missing link is not there and QAM 34-1 is guideless.

However, I realize that this isn't the case for all markets. Some of them don't have the right PSIP data and that would be a significant impediment for those users. It would also lead to CSR issues for those users, and Tivo getting the blame for cablecos with bad PSIP.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

smbaker said:


> However, I realize that this isn't the case for all markets. Some of them don't have the right PSIP data and that would be a significant impediment for those users. It would also lead to CSR issues for those users, and Tivo getting the blame for cablecos with bad PSIP.


My local TWC had bad PSIP data. And the channels changed once every two weeks. Imagine the nightmare that Tivo would have just from the users in my city. And some cities have good data, some have bad data, and some USUALLY have good data.

Look, if you can't afford the cable card fee and the digital package, why on Earth did you buy an expensive HD Tivo for? You can't afford it!


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

BobCamp1 said:


> Look, if you can't afford the cable card fee and the digital package, why on Earth did you buy an expensive HD Tivo for? You can't afford it!


I've been burned enough times by Comcast and don't want to deal with them unless I'm desperate. I would rather stare at a stone tablet instead of a TV then have them screw something up here again.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

BobCamp1 said:


> Look, if you can't afford the cable card fee and the digital package, why on Earth did you buy an expensive HD Tivo for? You can't afford it!


Well, I can only speak to my own situation... It wasn't a matter of cost but of convenience. At the time (3 years ago? 4?) the only HD channels I wanted were local networks. To require a technician to install a cablecard solely to watch an unencrypted channel is a great annoyance for the customer. Not to mention having a truck roll every time I upgrade to a new Tivo. It even serves as a deterrent to upgrading to a new Tivo.

Times have changed, and I now use a few more digital and HD channels, and the cablecard is a necessity, so for me the whole argument is now moot.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

sbourgeo said:


> I've been burned enough times by Comcast and don't want to deal with them unless I'm desperate. I would rather stare at a stone tablet instead of a TV then have them screw something up here again.


Wow sounds like Comcast New England is really incompetent. Comcast here in San Jose is very easy to work with, they allow cable card with basic service, and let you do self-installation. Too bad Comcast also picked New England as the initial release for Comcast Tivo, no wonder that thing never worked right.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

yunlin12 said:


> Wow sounds like Comcast New England is really incompetent. Comcast here in San Jose is very easy to work with, they allow cable card with basic service, and let you do self-installation. Too bad Comcast also picked New England as the initial release for Comcast Tivo, no wonder that thing never worked right.


It was fun when I had to hand hold the tech when he installed my cable modem many years ago. At least when my parents got one a couple of years ago they finally allowed HSI self-installs.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Tivo never intended to permit generic eSATA drives. Tivo closed the loophole. Generic eSATA drives don't work with the TivoHD (without hacking). Tivo decided to "grandfather" S3 customers using generic drives.

Tivo stopped supplying drivers for generic wireless ethernet at least 5 years ago. Are any of the generic devices that work with tivo even available retail? Tivo decided the support issues weren't worth it and introduced a tivo branded adapter.

Your points support the opposite conclusion. Tivo found unsupported features are trouble.

QAM mapping of clear channels would inevitably lead to missed recordings. Support issues. Bad worth of mouth when those customers who missed recordings complain to their friends. You want to come over and watch XXX. My cablevsion DVR recorded the show. I said you wasted your money on tivo.



Adam1115 said:


> Bullcrap. They've implemented several unsupported features before, some requiring a code to activate.
> 
> Call support on a non-TiVo wireless adapter or a generic eSATA drive on a series 3. You'll be told "We're sorry, that's not supported." In fact, esata was first enabled via a backdoor code and was totally unsupported.
> 
> ...


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

smbaker said:


> Well, I can only speak to my own situation... It wasn't a matter of cost but of convenience. At the time (3 years ago? 4?) the only HD channels I wanted were local networks. To require a technician to install a cablecard solely to watch an unencrypted channel is a great annoyance for the customer. Not to mention having a truck roll every time I upgrade to a new Tivo. It even serves as a deterrent to upgrading to a new Tivo.
> 
> Times have changed, and I now use a few more digital and HD channels, and the cablecard is a necessity, so for me the whole argument is now moot.


Cablecards are a one-time one-day annoyance. Seriously, how many Tivos do sane people buy every year?

If you don't like cable, buy an antenna. You get the same channels there as you do with clear QAM, and it is cheaper.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

*This Thread should become a dead issue*


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

BobCamp1 said:


> Cablecards are a one-time one-day annoyance. Seriously, how many Tivos do sane people buy every year?


As cablecards are generally paired to the device, it's a significant impediment to product upgrades.

If you read through some of the stories here, you'll see that they're often more than a 1-time 1-day annoyance. Aside from preventing upgrades, this also leads to hesitation in first-time buyers.


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## cogx (Sep 23, 2006)

I maintain that the clear QAM mapping issue - which I agree now was always DOA, in spite of those who have been in the past (*raises hand*) and continue to be passionately for it (*lowers hand*) - has always actually been a minor subset of the real issue that TiVo doesn't appear to have an in-house mechanism to make changes to the station-to-channel mapping embedded within the licensed TMS guide data they upload into our TiVo hardware.

Now, _had_ TiVo designed their system in a way which allowed the embedded station-to-channel mapping to be dynamically updated, before being uploaded to our TiVo hardware, the flexibility would have been there.
Many people have argued that even with the capability to allow for clear QAM mapping, it was still an awful idea, for various business reasons, and those arguments actually wore me down a year or two year ago and I conceded.

However, having had 45 documented days in 2010 to where there were errors in the station-to-channel mapping for my cable provider:zip:build, I still believe it is a major design flaw that TiVo didn't design a system to where they have some override control over the station-to-channel mapping data TMS provides.

Of course, it could be that I am biased. For those who still think there's nothing wrong with the way TiVo has implemented their guide data system, feel free to jump into this thread and tell those poor souls what you think about their woes.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cogx said:


> has always actually been a minor subset of the real issue that TiVo doesn't appear to have an in-house mechanism to make changes to the station-to-channel mapping embedded within the licensed TMS guide data they upload into our TiVo hardware.


that is a different approach that, as you point out, would have added benefit in TiVo providing better service overall. I pointed out the idea that TiVo could have massaged the daily show data and pegged the repeats so first run season pass would not get them. Earlier in the thread I expressed that I wondered how TiVo could economically staff such a capability and someone replied with an interesting ID of the TiVo staff could simply respond to customer issues versus trying to find out on their own. That does seem like a gap, though I have no idea what the agreement from TMS is on the data or if TiVo even has a chance to touch the data via its own internal systems


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

lessd said:


> *This Thread should become a dead issue*


Operative word is SHOULD.
People should learn what Genghis Kahn taught the Chinese.


> When the horse dies,... Get off.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lew said:


> You're missing the point, or I'm misreading your post. The issue is tivo won't work with a cable system which doesn't use any security on some or all digital channels.


No, neither one, I think. The vast majorioty of CATV systems are required to support CableCards. If it is a digital channel, then it is serviced by a CableCard, with only a very few exceptions.



lew said:


> At least for a customer who doesn't subscribe to any encrypted channels.


While it is true any clear channel, non-switched digital channel can be tuned by a set without a CableCard, the original intent was for everyone to have a card, regardless of their lineup.



lew said:


> I don't think the FCC is requiring cable systems use any security, only that any security being used is separable. TV sets work fine with unencrypted channels, tivo doesn't.


TiVo works precisely the same way a TV does with unencrypted channels. Manually tune the channel, and it will be received. The difference is the TVs are not trying to record events based upon an out-of-band database.



lew said:


> Tivo works with cable cards.


So do many TVs. I have one, and have had for well over four years.



lew said:


> TV sets equipped with a cable card slot don't work in cable systems that require tuning adapters.


They don't work on SDV channels. They work fine on linear channels.



lew said:


> TV sets have a QAM tuner. Tivo has a QAM tuner. Tivo decided not to use the QAM tuner (without using a cable card even for channels not encrypted.)


TiVo's QAM tuners work just fine without a CableCard. It's the guide that doesn't work without the CableCard. Among other things, employing the CableCard allows the CATV provider to quickly and easily make line-up changes. For some reason I could never really understand when I worked for them, they love to do this. A very distinct advantage, however, is that making room for new channel deployments is easy. More importantly, in the event of a QAM failure - or a whole bank of them - the headend can simply move the channel over to a diferent QAM with a different frequency at the figurative push of a button, so the failure of a modulator will have minimal impact on customers. Without a dynamic channel map, this isn't possible.

What TiVo decided to do was follow both the letter and intent of the CableCard standard.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

cogx said:


> I maintain that the clear QAM mapping issue - which I agree now was always DOA, in spite of those who have been in the past (*raises hand*) and continue to be passionately for it (*lowers hand*) - has always actually been a minor subset of the real issue that TiVo doesn't appear to have an in-house mechanism to make changes to the station-to-channel mapping embedded within the licensed TMS guide data they upload into our TiVo hardware.


How is TiVo supposed to know that a QAM modulator serving 450 homes has failed in a New Jersey suburb, and that the technicians have moved 11 channels off that QAM to one 60 MHz higher in frequency for 2 days until a replacement arrives?



cogx said:


> Many people have argued that even with the capability to allow for clear QAM mapping, it was still an awful idea, for various business reasons, and those arguments actually wore me down a year or two year ago and I conceded.


'Not just for business reasons. Ther are very real technical and engineering reasons why it's a bad idea.



cogx said:


> However, having had 45 documented days in 2010 to where there were errors in the station-to-channel mapping for my cable provider:zip:build, I still believe it is a major design flaw that TiVo didn't design a system to where they have some override control over the station-to-channel mapping data TMS provides.


Within 2 years, more than 95% of all broadcast channels will be SDV on some systems. Within 5, a signifcant number of systems are liable to be 100% SDV. Even today, only a very limited number of chanels on most CATV systems have any fixed mapping.



cogx said:


> Of course, it could be that I am biased. For those who still think there's nothing wrong with the way TiVo has implemented their guide data system, feel free to jump into this thread and tell those poor souls what you think about their woes.


I didn't say there is nothing wrong with it. I said the proposed methods by which people want the situation addressed are bad ideas. Nothing is perfect, and any dynamic environment is going to wind up displacing some people's needs. Forcing the implementation of a limited system, or forcing the limitation of a very much more flexible system is not the answer.


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

> Within 2 years, more than 95% of all broadcast channels will be SDV on some systems. Within 5, a signifcant number of systems are liable to be 100% SDV. Even today, only a very limited number of chanels on most CATV systems have any fixed mapping.


Why do you say this? My understanding is that SDV works by not sending channels that are unwatched. Since the big networks are likely the most watched I would expect that they would not be put on SDV unless there is some big change in viewing behavior. In my area, the SDV channels are the more obscure channels. As a result, I have opted to not use a tuning adapter.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

Its all about network efficiency. While to me it wouldn't make sense to move certain channels to SDV, just so they are always available, I can see some bean counter saying why not put all channels on SDV. If the channel isn't being used we can use the bandwidth for something else.


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## cogx (Sep 23, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> How is TiVo supposed to know that a QAM modulator serving 450 homes has failed in a New Jersey suburb, and that the technicians have moved 11 channels off that QAM to one 60 MHz higher in frequency for 2 days until a replacement arrives?
> 
> 'Not just for business reasons. Ther are very real technical and engineering reasons why it's a bad idea.
> 
> Within 2 years, more than 95% of all broadcast channels will be SDV on some systems. Within 5, a signifcant number of systems are liable to be 100% SDV. Even today, only a very limited number of chanels on most CATV systems have any fixed mapping.


My last post you picked apart clearly stated that, although I've been posting in this thread, I'm not at all promoting clear QAM mapping and so I have no idea what SDV has to do with anything I've personally been writing about.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

lessd said:


> *This Thread should become a dead issue*


Apparently they're intent on rehashing the same tired stuff, knowing full well that nothing will come of it.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

Is it fair to assume that all the readers of this thread know that there are (at least) two sets of channel numbers being discussed here? (1) The logical channel numbers that are (relatively) fixed and are what appears in guides such as from Tribune Media, and (2) the physical channel on the cable, which can be changed on a whim by the cable provider. As mentioned in a earlier post, reasons for on-they-fly changes include optimizing how channels are packed together and temporary hardware failures effecting customers in a certain neighborhood. Tribune does not know anything about the physical channels. And there is the cable card or Tuning Adapter, which provides the logical-physical channel map, on a real-time basis.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

CharlesH said:


> Is it fair to assume that all the readers of this thread know that there are (at least) two sets of channel numbers being discussed here? (1) The logical channel numbers that are (relatively) fixed and are what appears in guides such as from Tribune Media, and (2) the physical channel on the cable, which can be changed on a whim by the cable provider. As mentioned in a earlier post, reasons for on-they-fly changes include optimizing how channels are packed together and temporary hardware failures effecting customers in a certain neighborhood. Tribune does not know anything about the physical channels. And there is the cable card or Tuning Adapter, which provides the logical-physical channel map, on a real-time basis.


And people reading your post should put this issue and Thread to bed as IMHO it would not be in TiVos interest to get involve in this.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

CharlesH said:


> As mentioned in a earlier post, reasons for on-they-fly changes include optimizing how channels are packed together and temporary hardware failures effecting customers in a certain neighborhood.


Another reason is to intentionally screw with clear QAM users.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Another reason is to intentionally screw with clear QAM users.


That may just be a convenient (for them) side effect. If there was never any requirement for them to maintain a stable logical-physical channel mapping, why (from their perspective) shouldn't they tweak the mapping whenever they see some, no matter how trivial, technical reason to do so?


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

Sorry, but I'm still in the camp that believes that TiVo could provide some form of clear-QAM channel suport. It wouldn't be 100&#37; and it wouldn't be guaratnteed, but it should at least comprehend whenever local HD channels are carried on OTA-equivalent channel numbers.

Two years ago I filed a complaint with the FCC since my local Comcast was "hiding" these local HD channels with numbers like 73-2304. I also filed with the local Franchise Authority. Comcast met with the Authority (to whom I provided some ammunition) and they agreed to move them to OTA-equivalent numbers. They've been that way now for 18 months.

It can't happen everywhere, but it can happen.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

jrm01 said:


> Sorry, but I'm still in the camp that believes that TiVo could provide some form of clear-QAM channel suport. It wouldn't be 100% and it wouldn't be guaratnteed, but it should at least comprehend whenever local HD channels are carried on OTA-equivalent channel numbers.
> 
> Two years ago I filed a complaint with the FCC since my local Comcast was "hiding" these local HD channels with numbers like 73-2304. I also filed with the local Franchise Authority. Comcast met with the Authority (to whom I provided some ammunition) and they agreed to move them to OTA-equivalent numbers. They've been that way now for 18 months.
> 
> It can't happen everywhere, but it can happen.


I think its trivial to make this happen, however I can't see a way that it wouldn't feel tacked on to the current menus(kinda like all the video on demand stuff). I also think that TiVo has dragged it's feet on this so long now that if they were to create a solution it wouldn't last long before something else broke it.


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> I think its trivial to make this happen, however I can't see a way that it wouldn't feel tacked on to the current menus(kinda like all the video on demand stuff).


All the settings menus in the Premiere seem tacked on


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dbtom said:


> All the settings menus in the Premiere seem tacked on


Doh!

Now all the fan boi's will be gunning for you.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> I think its trivial to make this happen, however I can't see a way that it wouldn't feel tacked on to the current menus(kinda like all the video on demand stuff).


I'm all for making such an option a bit hard to find. I've always thought power-user level features deserve a bit of an intelligence test to activate them.



Stormspace said:


> I also think that TiVo has dragged it's feet on this so long now that if they were to create a solution it wouldn't last long before something else broke it.


Given that the pool of unencrypted channels is shrinking and will eventually be equal to only the set of local channels for most people, the incentive for Tivo to do this is declining. If they didn't do it four years ago, they certainly wouldn't do it now.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

It's a shame. For the past two years all my local HD channels have scanned in via ClearQAM with the correct channel numbers _and_ the correct channel identification/call letters. They can even be added to the guide but will forever display "to be announced" in the listings. I cannot receive all of these via Antenna so it's an extra $10+ a month (two CableCARDs and an extra outlet fee) if I want to watch them.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

It's a shame that folks keep posting about this dead horse.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> It's a shame. For the past two years all my local HD channels have scanned in via ClearQAM with the correct channel numbers _and_ the correct channel identification/call letters. They can even be added to the guide but will forever display "to be announced" in the listings. I cannot receive all of these via Antenna so it's an extra $10+ a month (two CableCARDs and an extra outlet fee) if I want to watch them.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's a shame that folks keep posting about this dead horse.


It's almost as bad as the folks that keep posting about beating this dead horse.


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## sgip2000 (Jun 19, 2009)

dbtom said:


> The issue is that the existing cable is as part of the apartment maintenance at no additional cost. If they get cable cards, they essentially move off the apartment plan and need to upgrade. I don't know if there is FCC jurisdiction over this type of stuff, but I guess probably not.
> 
> I see that other areas have changing frequencies-- I just know that this one has not.


My apartment complex pays for my basic cable package. I just had to add the cable card.

Just call and tell them that the landlord pays for the cable, they should know how to add the cable card.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

sbourgeo said:


> I've been burned enough times by Comcast and don't want to deal with them unless I'm desperate. I would rather stare at a stone tablet instead of a TV then have them screw something up here again.


Well, it appears that I was finally desperate enough.  I got a letter from Comcast warning of an impending digital migration, so I went to the local Comcast office and picked up a cable card self-install kit. Other than having difficulty understanding the off-shore CSR on the phone, the cable card pairing seemed to work OK.

Of course, my Windows 7 Media Center pc continues to work very well with the Comcast clear QAM channels (thank you PSIP data) as it has from day one.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

sbourgeo said:


> Other than having difficulty understanding the off-shore CSR on the phone, the cable card pairing seemed to work OK.


I just went thru a self-install migration from Frontier FiOS to Comcast myself. Just a few notes that may help others:

1st CableCARD installed required escalation to 2nd level tech support; local channels worked but none of the other channels (e.g. like CNBC) I was paying for. The tech wound up sending an "initialization" signal that got everything functional.

I did my subsequent cards the next day. They wouldn't even show locals, even though the Conditional Access screen changed from "Con: No" to "Con: Yes" after Comcast tried to pair the cards. They were going to escalate me to 2nd level tech support but they said their procedure was to ask for a reboot of the TiVos first. So I hung up and *rebooted my TiVo HDs* and everything started working.

*TiVo has excellent CableCARD troubleshooting info* on their site. I don't have the URL handy, but I found it on another thread here (perhaps in the Series3 forum). Using TiVo's site I was able to tell the Comcast 2nd level tech that my authorization said "Auth: MP" instead of "Auth: S" (and TiVo's site mentions this as a problem). I'd like to think that actually helped Comcast, but in reality what the tech probably did was send a series of various "hits" and "initializations", one of which did the trick. All the Comcast CableCARDs are previously used, so of course they are always suspect in my estimation.


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