# TiVo Inc dump 50% of their loyal UK users



## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Following the tie-up between TiVo Inc and Virgin Media to market the new VM Tivo in the UK, TiVo Inc are now casting adrift 50% of their loyal UK customers by closing their UK service on 31st May 2011.

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/318/kw/uk
http://blog.tivo.com/2011/02/1123/

They claim we can "upgrade" to the new Virgin Media offering but we cannot - VM are only offering the new service in areas with cable television (which covers only 51% of the UK households). This leaves 50% of existing TiVo users in the UK scr*w*d.

Virgin Media have NO alternative available for existing TiVo customers in areas which do not have Virgin cable. There is NO "upgrade" path available to us - there is no "special offer".

Sure we don't expect TiVo to maintain the service forever, but their handling of the way they are closing the service is causing serious anger and resentment amongst their extremely loyal UK customers. If they'd just come clean and said "sorry, we're closing it" then fine, but their arrogance in suggesting we should all switch to VM is galling, and shows a total lack of understanding of the UK market.

Why am I telling you this? Well since it seems that TiVo Inc.'s business strategy is to move out of the direct sales market (restricting themselves solely to sub-contracting with cable companies in future), then all of you in the US with S1/2/3 Tivos had better watch out - you are on borrowed time before TiVo dump YOU up the creek without a paddle.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Sounds like a bad situation -- my sympathies. Who knows whither goest TiVo in the future? It's possible many more of us will be in a similar situation at some time.

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "extremely loyal UK customers"?
Using this description implies to me that UK customers have "stuck by" TiVo purely out of loyalty when they have had better choices at hand. Is that the case? If so, why not just dump TiVo, take one of the better choices and be happy?


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

I think the majority of the US Tivo owners have, over the last year now, come to terms and accepted that they are on borrowed time. While I think it sucks that Tivo has decided to go this route, it is completely understandable from their viewpoint. I feel for you guys in the UK.. but you're not gonna be alone for long. Fact is, the days of a personal Tivo are limited.

My 1st hope is for Tivo to hold out for a few more years yet in the US market, maybe giving us a full year warning near the end of this year. 

My 2nd hope is some other company fills the void left by Tivo and offers an alternative DVR to the cable companies Tivos filled with everything Tivo couldn't be bothered with, like an app store, coverflow mp3 player, etc.. A high end 'this is not your cable companies DVR' DVR. Moxi?

Regardless.. it looks like you UK Tivo owners are just the canaries in the coal mine. On the bright side, I am sure you will find something Tivo-like is available to you.


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## MrSkippy53 (Jan 27, 2011)

I am a bit confused. What about the owners of Life Time subs? Are they SOL?


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

I'm guessing that what you are loosing in the UK is the program guide information and you are monthly subscribers (no lifetime). Is that correct?

Being that I am lifetime on two boxes, I would be more than upset if TiVo just said "that's it". I would at least want to be able to make manual recordings in the future. But who knows what will happen? I knew many years ago TiVo was a bit of a gamble.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Thanks guys. I say "loyal" because we have staunchly defended our beloved Tivos against all those who would say they were too complicated; too big; outdated (I think not!). We've set up self-support groups to help people out (customer support was contracted to BSkyB and they really didn't want to know since they had their own PVR which they wanted to promote - how's that for a conflict of interest!), and provide hard disc upgrades when the original (now 8-10 years old) disc has died. (No spares available from TiVo since 2002).

We don't really have anything else that comes even close to what the S1 can do! Most of the PVRs we have can't even do Season Passes let alone Suggestions.

Many of us have been paying £10 ($16) to TiVo every month for the last 8-10 years. Of course we knew it would come to an end one day but we can't believe just _how_ TiVo Inc are letting it happen. To say we can "upgrade" when we can't shows either callousness or ignorance - either of which is poor management.

We have offered officially to take the service off their hands, but... nothing. They have ignored all our e-mails and not returned any phone calls.

Probably half of us are on Lifetime Subscription but they are being cut off too (ok the small print in the Agreement says that even a Lifetime Sub actually only means a "rolling 30-day period" - TiVo can pull the plug for _no reason_ with 30 days notice, and they've given us 3.5 months, so I suppose we should at least be grateful for that!


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

While I sympathise with my fellow Brits and can understand your frustration. However TiVo stopped selling units in the UK in 2003 so they have actually provided 7+ years of service since the unit was discontinued.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> I think the majority of the US Tivo owners have, over the last year now, come to terms and accepted that they are on borrowed time. While I think it sucks that Tivo has decided to go this route, it is completely understandable from their viewpoint. I feel for you guys in the UK.. but you're not gonna be alone for long. Fact is, the days of a personal Tivo are limited.


The UK is a very different market from the US. these are essentially S1 TiVo DVRs and TiVo is dropping official support. The UK folks will figure out soon enough they can supply guide data on their own as a group, just like Canada and Australia did before they had official TiVo DVRs to buy. Important fact is that TiVo stopped selling these DVRs in 2003 so this would be more like an announcement that replay DVRs were no longer getting guide data.

So while I fully agree that the standalone market in the US is not making TiVo profits, here we are talking the same product that TiVo can sel lto tier 2 MSOs and we are a great test bed to develop on. So I think your timeline projections are way, way too early.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

petew said:


> However TiVo stopped selling units in the UK in 2003 so they have actually provided 7+ years of service since the unit was discontinued.


Agreed but it's not the fact they have stopped the service (we've been expecting that for 7 years), it's the _way_ they've done it.

At best, it shows a total lack of understanding about their customers. At worst, it show total _contempt_ for their customers.

.


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## davisa (Feb 19, 2002)

Also remember TiVo are just re-entering the UK market, not leaving it.

If this had happened any time in the last 5 years I wouldn't have been surprised, but to do so on the dawn of a new TiVo era in the UK is disappointing.


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## mas (Jan 12, 2002)

Can't they keep the data running in parallel with Virgin?

http://www.facebook.com/pages/SaveSeries1UKTiVo/154976811224055


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

They could if they wanted to, and we're trying to persuade them to do just that, but it seems they think we can all get the new "upgrade" offering so they don't want to play.


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## velocitysurfer1 (Sep 6, 2006)

mas said:


> Can't they keep the data running in parallel with Virgin?
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/SaveSeries1UKTiVo/154976811224055


I assume that it's in the virgin contract to migrate S1 user to the virgin media TiVo, especially as virgin has signed an "exclusive" agreement i.e. no one else can supply the TiVo service in the UK. Having a second TiVo guide data supplier (for S1 tivos) was probably always off the table.


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## pteronaut (Dec 26, 2009)

petew said:


> While I sympathise with my fellow Brits and can understand your frustration. However TiVo stopped selling units in the UK in 2003 so they have actually provided 7+ years of service since the unit was discontinued.


And now they continue to provide service, but only to those lucky 51% of the British Isles which Virgin Media provide service to.

Why not continue to supply the legacy TiVo owners with guide data? I am willing to believe that service exclusivity was part of the deal for TiVo software being installed of Virgin cable boxes.

BTW, If I was still in the UK, I would be in one of the unserved regions, a town of 30,000+ which in the late '90's was subject to major traffic chaos for six months as one of the cable companies purchased by VM, ripped up two major roads through the town to lay cable with no intent on serving the town itself.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

It's also likely that there just aren't enough S1 owners left in the UK to justify keeping the service active on antiquated units when they have a new deal in place.


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## wondermouse (Nov 21, 2009)

velocitysurfer1 said:


> I assume that it's in the virgin contract to migrate S1 user to the virgin media TiVo, especially as virgin has signed an "exclusive" agreement i.e. no one else can supply the TiVo service in the UK.


But Virgin Media can not or will not provide cable services to at least half of all TiVo owners. I'd sign up tomorrow, but I can't!

I've been told I can't get cable by Virgin, and I live in London, so what chance can people outside cities and larger towns have?

It's not like the US, where most people have access to cable. Cable started in America as people could not recieve broadcast TV properly. In the UK we had/have a very good broadcast TV service, so there was no need for cable. What will I do in July with my large silver door stop?


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## velocitysurfer1 (Sep 6, 2006)

wondermouse said:


> But Virgin Media can not or will not provide cable services to at least half of all TiVo owners. I'd sign up tomorrow, but I can't!
> 
> I've been told I can't get cable by Virgin, and I live in London, so what chance can people outside cities and larger towns have?
> 
> It's not like the US, where most people have access to cable. Cable started in America as people could not recieve broadcast TV properly. In the UK we had/have a very good broadcast TV service, so there was no need for cable. What will I do in July with my large silver door stop?


I completely agree. I live in a medium sized town in the east midlands, and there is no cable and probably never will be.

As for what to do in June, I'm pretty sure that an unofficial solution will be up and running by then.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Important fact is that TiVo stopped selling these DVRs in 2003 so this would be more like an announcement that replay DVRs were no longer getting guide data.


Actually my lifetime ReplayTV from 2000 is still getting guide data, and even had a dial-in to update the Daylight Savings Time change a couple of years back. It's almost as surprising as the fact that the unit is still working.

It sucks for UK Tivo users.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

wondermouse said:


> But Virgin Media can not or will not provide cable services to at least half of all TiVo owners.


I keep seeing this but is it really accurate? Just because 50% of the overall population doesn't have access to VM doesn't mean that Tivo ownership is equally distributed among the country. For all we know, a vast majority of Tivo owners may have access to VM which is why they made the offer to 'upgrade'.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Keep in mind that the UK TiVo was originally a partnership with Sky. Since TiVo's deal with Virgin Media is exclusive I doubt that TiVo has the option of continuing to support those boxes even if they wanted to.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

nrc said:


> Keep in mind that the UK TiVo was originally a partnership with Sky. Since TiVo's deal with Virgin Media is exclusive I doubt that TiVo has the option of continuing to support those boxes even if they wanted to.


Too bad this is basically a result of a pissing contest with Virgin and Tivo's old deal with Sky. We're talking about only maybe 10's of thousands of user's guide data, maybe cost a few $ per user each month. So the whole thing may be on the order of $100K per month. This is peanuts for anyone in the cable/Sat business. Tivo could have tried to cut a deal with Virgin to at least allow a 3rd party to continue to supply guide data for users not in Virgin's area. It wouldn't even be a drop in Virgin's bucket.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

yunlin12 said:


> Actually my lifetime ReplayTV from 2000 is still getting guide data, and even had a dial-in to update the Daylight Savings Time change a couple of years back. It's almost as surprising as the fact that the unit is still working.
> 
> It sucks for UK Tivo users.


I know that replay boxes are still getting guide data - I siad it would be *like* replay owners getting the word that guide data was stopping. It would suck for replay owners but it is actually more surprising that the guide data is still flowing


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

wondermouse said:


> What will I do in July with my large silver door stop?


Can the UK TiVos be hacked, as the US S1 units can?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

MrSkippy53 said:


> I am a bit confused. What about the owners of Life Time subs? Are they SOL?


*S*uckers *O*wning *L*ifetime?

It would appear so.

edit:

My cynicism about TiVo should not be interpreted as a lack of affection or respect for UK TiVo users and owners.

I'm sure they're trying to figure out how to dump US Series 1 Lifetime'ers as well.


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## davidthornton (Feb 17, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "extremely loyal UK customers"?
> Using this description implies to me that UK customers have "stuck by" TiVo purely out of loyalty when they have had better choices at hand. Is that the case? If so, why not just dump TiVo, take one of the better choices and be happy?


There's no answer to that _because_ loyalty isn't really what it's about at all.  People have stuck with TiVo in the UK because for whatever reason they preferred it over alternatives. I'm sure many did jump to other products, but a remainder have become attached to the TiVo S1 because nothing else meets their criteria. I think this is particularly prevelant with this item because after a decade, it is going to be something that will be considered so useful and therefore will have become very integrated into many people's lives. So when access is finally about to be cut off, some of those that cannot or don't want to switch to the new "cable area only" TiVo are going to feel like one of their arms has been chopped off.

There's a convergence of platforms in the UK. If you want to pay for TV it's mainly satellite via Sky or cable from Virgin Media. We don't have twenty different cable companies, covering 98% of the population, that TiVo could potentially do business with and given TiVo Inc are naturally out to make money, there's no financial benefit to remain on good terms with any of their S1 owners after those that will switch to the new "cable area only" TiVo have done so. Afterall, TiVo Inc stopped taking further subscription charges from those that didn't purchase an S1 lifetime subscription a while ago.

I appreciate why those that will be cut off in a few months, and aren't going/able to switch to the new TiVo, are upset and I think it's largely to do with my first pararaph. I don't believe anyone can claim they haven't had value for money from whatever they paid TiVo Inc for S1 subscription data. I dont believe TiVo Inc owe any S1 owners any more of an explanation than they have given them. Besides, other than perhaps a bit more notice, what else could they really offer (other than to keep offering the data, which isn't what they want to do) other than a disconted upgrade to a new TiVo for those that can potentially receive service from the cable company?

I suspect a third party hack will be made available to allow the S1's to continue receiving schedule data.

I bought my TiVo S1 at the end of 2001 along with a lifetime sub. I knew that at some point it would eventually become unsupported but nobody knew when. I think ten years is very good for a piece of technology.


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## mas (Jan 12, 2002)

New Virgin Box is no good for me, Virgin stops a couple of miles up the road 

10+ Years is good service, but we really dont want to put our TiVo's in the skip.

Let's hope an unofficial EPG service can be started before June. Like in Oz, http://www.oztivo.net/twiki/bin/view

http://www.facebook.com/SaveSeries1UKTiVo


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> surprising that the guide data is still flowing


Why? 'Cause Tivo is too lazy to do it? When you purposely sell a device that is useless without service, I think you have a responsibility to provide that service even if it becomes inconvenient. Either that or push out an update to unbrick the device. Tivo is not interested in doing either of these and, sadly, I don't seem to be all that surprised.

Replay was a standup company. While their convictions got them into trouble with Hollywood, they did the right thing by their subscribers.

My feeling as a Tivo Subscriber over the last few years is that they are happy leaning in any direction the wind blows, and have little conviction about anything.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> Why? 'Cause Tivo is too lazy to do it?
> 
> Replay was a standup company. While their convictions got them into trouble with Hollywood, they did the right thing by their subscribers.
> 
> My feeling as a Tivo Subscriber over the last few years is that they are happy leaning in any direction the wind blows, and have little conviction about anything.


first - my comment about surprising was for Replay, do not take it out of context.

second - Replay folded - someone found the guide data business profitable enough to take it on. Sure replay negotiated selling their assets and were smart and included the guide data customers - but do not think for one second that replay would have kept sending out guide data if they had not found someone who saw a profit in continuing it.

And guess what, TiVo is the same way. They are a corporation trying to make a profit. They go in the direction of profits or end up like replay, not even a company anymore but some IP assets for DirectTV and a little profit for guide data.

This does not help UK folks who fell to Virgin Media wanting an exclusive deal and thus the end of the old S1 units in the UK from an official TiVo standpoint, but that is how the business went.

In the US I know of no 30 day and gone clause in the Lifetime service agreement. anyone see any kind of termination clause in the US Lifetime service?


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Replay folded - someone found the guide data business profitable enough to take it on. Sure replay negotiated selling their assets and were smart and included the guide data customers - but do not think for one second that replay would have kept sending out guide data if they had not found someone who saw a profit in continuing it.


The fact is they did. You and I have no knowledge of whether RTV made it a condition of sale or not, but whatever they did, they got it done as it continues to flow even after the D&M divestment. I assume there was some amount of effort made here as compared to simply pulling the plug.



> And guess what, TiVo is the same


I can't equate "getting it done" and "pulling the plug" as being the same.



> This does not help UK folks who fell to Virgin Media wanting an exclusive deal and thus the end of the old S1 units in the UK from an official TiVo standpoint, but that is how the business went.


Ahh the "cookie crumbles" clause. Ok let's assume (big stretch here not) that TiVo is incapable of negotiating a deal without bending over, and keeping the best interest of past customers in sight; so why not un-brick the devices with an update? I'll go on record here now that this won't happen. TiVo is simply not interested. After all, what have those customers done for TiVo lately?


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> In the US I know of no 30 day and gone clause in the Lifetime service agreement. anyone see any kind of termination clause in the US Lifetime service?


Clause 15:


> TiVo reserves the right to terminate your account and this Agreement for no reason if TiVo gives you at least 30 days advance notice of such termination.


http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/policies/tivoserviceagreement.html

30 days notice = game over.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> The fact is they did. You and I have no knowledge of whether RTV made it a condition of sale or not, but whatever they did, they got it done as it continues to flow even after the D&M divestment. I assume there was some amount of effort made here as compared to simply pulling the plug.


well you have an obvious TiVo can only do wrong agenda so trying to have a rational debate on this is hard

however you fail to see this as two distinct things
1. replay was folding as a company completely, they were not working out some deal with an MSO to use their DVR.

2. TiVo did make some deal with Virgin Media. Virgin Media says "You know those DVRs that you provide service to but DO NOT CHARGE for the guide data any longer? well we do not want to compete with that - so either drop official support for them or we will make a deal with someone else. That is not bending over but simple business dealings. VM seemed reasonable to me in not wanting to compete with free.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

spitfires said:


> Clause 15:
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/policies/tivoserviceagreement.html
> 
> 30 days notice = game over.


I see, in a different place from lifetime service section. Well then I would need a contract lawyer to decipher how the 2 sections interact.

This may be the first time a Class Action lawsuit makes sense in these forums.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I see, in a different place from lifetime service section. Well then I would need a contract lawyer to decipher how the 2 sections interact.


This is where everyone goes wrong - it is not called a Lifetime _Service_ - it is a Lifetime _Subscription_. All it gets you is freedom from paying a subscription. It is not at odds with Clause 15 in any way.

Any judge (even one in California  ) would recognise that Clause 15 takes precedence over Clauses 14 & 9 (which promise nothing by way of length of service).

It goes like this:
i) The Service requires an Account
ii) A Subscription buys you an Account
iii) TiVo can terminate your Account for no reason at 30 days notice.

It really is crystal clear


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well you have an obvious TiVo can only do wrong agenda so trying to have a rational debate on this is hard


That is unfair and untrue. Obviously TiVo does a number of things right or I would not be a subscriber.



> however you fail to see this as two distinct things
> 1. replay was folding as a company completely, they were not working out some deal with an MSO to use their DVR.


They clearly worked out a deal to divest their assets, and were certainly over bigger barrels at the time than TiVo. Point is they managed to do it without pulling the plug on legacy subscribers.



> 2. TiVo did make some deal with Virgin Media. Virgin Media says "You know those DVRs that you provide service to but DO NOT CHARGE for the guide data any longer? well we do not want to compete with that - so either drop official support for them or we will make a deal with someone else. That is not bending over but simple business dealings. VM seemed reasonable to me in not wanting to compete with free.


Not sure what I am failing to see here. VM sees competition from S1 devices in markets they do not even service?! Good Lord yeah, I'm the one with the vision problems. TiVo went after a nice shiny carrot, and to get it had no problem bricking legacy users' devices in the process. This solution was the easiest, laziest possible, and an excellent excuse to cut off legacy users that had done nothing for TiVo lately.

And if someone like Comcast/NBC steps up and says "Hey TiVo! We'll make you the exclusive device vendor for all Comcast households you just need to brick all standalone devices that are not paying us subscription fees (including lifetime subs)", that would be a simple business dealing, right? It is reasonable for Comcast not to want to compete with boxes that they receive no revenue from?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> That is unfair and untrue. Obviously TiVo does a number of things right or I would not be a subscriber.


 you routinely dump on management decisions by TiVo. At least own the opinions you express in your posts.


> They clearly worked out a deal to divest their assets, and were certainly over bigger barrels at the time than TiVo. Point is they managed to do it without pulling the plug on legacy subscribers.


TiVo EXITED the market In the UK, They went one step further and just gave the guide service for free to users. however TiVo is RE_ENTERING the market in the UK now. These are different things.


> Not sure what I am failing to see here. VM sees competition from S1 devices in markets they do not even service?! Good Lord&#8230; yeah, I'm the one with the vision problems.


to repeat - TiVo had already gone well above and beyond for the legacy users. TiVo had not collected any fees for over a year but still provided the service for Free even to those who had only been monthly subscribers. TiVo had exited the hardware market 7 years ago and the sub market 1 year ago. That is a very different scenario then the current Subscription service that TiVo is very much active in here in the US


> TiVo went after a nice shiny carrot, and to get it had no problem bricking legacy users' devices in the process. This solution was the easiest, laziest possible, and an excellent excuse to cut off legacy users that had done nothing for TiVo lately.


 yeah, you just post rationally about TiVo management


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## Bluefastcar (Nov 3, 2004)

Wrong.

Tivo exited the hardware market, but continued to supply guide data. They only stopped taking my monthly sub 4months ago. They stopped taking it, I didn't want them to. They re-entered the market by signing up with VM before they stopped the data supply.

All we want Tivo to do, is to continue supplying the data which we will willingly pay for. The product is slowly dying, as new technologhy arrives. Please let it die naturally, not kill it.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

Bluefastcar said:


> Please let it die naturally, not kill it.


Presumably the law of diminishing returns. TiVo must have a fixed overhead to prepare the guide data and a small per user cost to deliver the data. Eventually with a diminishing number of subscribers providing the service becomes un-economical.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you routinely dump on management decisions by TiVo. At least own the opinions you express in your posts.


I simply call them as I see them and I own all of it. Let me see now, what are my direct experiences with TiVo management and policy since becoming their customer:

1.) My second TiVo HD - dead out of the box. My call to TiVo was endless, mind numbing exercises before they finally concluded what I was telling them all along. Their solution? was to send me a refurb for a brand new unit dead out of the box. Who does business like that? No one else that I have ever received a new DOA unit from, including Apple, APC, Dell, and Plantronics (all of which shipped another new unit along with a paid return label).

2.) A bit disappointed that an item labeled "HD" in its model designation had an "SD" interface. Was told by TiVo rep they were working on HD interface and to look at "TiVo Search" for a preview of what was coming. Think we all know they decided to punt on that one.

3.) When subscribing box 2 for a year, I asked the Rep if after that year could I revert to monthly if I wish, and was told yes. Come to find out that meant another year's commitment anyway.

4.) And of course there is the whole 90 day warranty issue as well worst in the CE industry.

5.) As a QA engineer, I took the time to report, in detail, a number of nagging bugs since day one. These were all regarding core DVR features, and not the mess that is the add on features like Amazon, and internet access. Through several updates over several years they are ALL still there, but we do have popup ads now.

6.) Software updates and other content are pushed to my devices without choice, and without changeLogs. Who does this in this day and age?

These are just my direct experiences since becoming a TiVo subscriber. Comparing the TiVo experience to a considerable number (an admitted A/V/gadget-a-holic) of other consumer electronic vendors TiVo is at the absolute bottom. No one else seems to have this slimy outer skin that TiVo does and this almost distinct aroma of indifference to their customers (even brand new ones purchasing multiple devices and subscriptions). No One!



> yeah, you just post rationally about TiVo management


On the other hand I have seen you extoll the virtue of TiVo just working better and more simply than anything else at one moment, while suggest utterly heinous work arounds for its shortcomings in the next.

While I agree with you that TiVo series 3 is still better than other DVR's at the moment, I am looking forward to the day when it is not as the have clearly demonstrated to me that they don't give a crap. Even the TiVo advisor surveys are so far off target it is laughable.

So while TiVo struggles to ink deals to survive, without the best interest of their customers at heart they will ultimately fail. I don't share your loyalty here because they have not earned it from me. Many go on here about how the standalone DVR business is not viable. I think it is more that TiVo's standalone DVR business is not viable. If the experience was exemplary, I know I would be having everyone I know (and many I just met) switching out their cable box for a TiVo. Sadly, a stagnant feature set, buggy software, and customer indifference is not something I can get excited about even if the device is noticeably better. I have given it a number of years to improve. It simply hasn't.

So while you may think I have an agenda (certainly no agenda on your end) or that I am irrational this is how one customer genuinely feels. Interestingly, he does not feel this way about any other product/service he owns/uses (but comcast comes close). I think it is pretty clear there are many here who feel the same way. That is the reality TiVo has to address and regardless of your never ending rationalizations, I don't think they're interested.

Enough of this the sun is out and I have to go plow the driveway.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

petew said:


> Presumably the law of diminishing returns. TiVo must have a fixed overhead to prepare the guide data and a small per user cost to deliver the data. Eventually with a diminishing number of subscribers providing the service becomes un-economical.


Agreed, but only TiVo know where that break point is. Our best estimate is that at least 2,000 people were on "tenner a month" right up till Tivo stopped taking the subs. last November. That's 2000 * £10 * 12 = £240,000 a year ($384k). Hardly uneconomic even allowing for the cost of paying Tribune for the guide data.

Multiply that by 8 years and you can see that Tivo have NOT been running the UK service as a charity for the last 8 years.

Obviously the VM deal is worth many millions (and increasing rather than diminishing) each year so it was a no brainer to dump the UK S1 customer base.


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## DavidTJones (Jun 26, 2008)

I have contacted BBC Watchdog to try to raise some media pressure on both VM and Tivo Inc. If everybody who posts on this site also contacted Watchdog we may get some positive feedback. Write to National Newspapers are get some awareness to the general public.


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## Sharkietour (Oct 22, 2002)

All this is interesting stuff but I, like Spitfires, feel Tivo is missing an opportunity to see some form of return and in part bring their original model of 1999 to partial fruition. I too live in a non VM area (Isle of Man, will never see VM) and dont have the upgrade route being offered. 

The assumption is that if Tivo contined to provide the data at the existing monthly charge of &#163;10 per month that there may be a bob or two in it for them, but I have a lifetime sub so have essentially had a free service for the last 10 years and would gladly pay double that to keep my TiVo: maybe more than that.

I would even commit to annual billing in advance!

What we need to do, because we are of course dealing with buiseness boffos here, is spell out to them what the market is and what it (we) will stand.

We HAVE to make it make sense to someone to take this task on, and we do that by publically putting our money where our mouth is. I Recommend we all go here: blog.tivo.com/2011/02/1123/ and also tell Tribune you want to give them a tenner a month: tribunemediaservices.com/contact-us/product-request-form/


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

spitfires said:


> Clause 15:
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/policies/tivoserviceagreement.html
> 
> 30 days notice = game over.


If you have lifetime service on your TiVo your agreement is the one in force at the time you purchased the Lifetime Service, I doubt any court would let any co change an agreement in such a fixed situation as lifetime. The 30 days is, IMHO, for monthly service TiVos. Unless TiVo went bankrupt they can't legally enforce any future agreement after purchase of Lifetime Service, TiVo could try but it would not fly, IMHO. My bet is only bankruptcy would let TiVo out of any Lifetime Service TiVos that had not been modified unless such modification was done by an authorized TiVo dealer. (Trying to cancel a modified Lifetime TiVo may give TiVo a problem as the old AT&T found out in court when people started adding non AT&T authorized things to phone lines, like the first phone answering units etc.)
Some things co.s just can't control all the time, the way thay may want.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

spitfires said:


> Clause 15:
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/policies/tivoserviceagreement.html
> 
> 30 days notice = game over.


It's actually this agreement that matters, not that it says anything different regarding termination:

http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/policies/BSKYB-tivoserviceagreement.html


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> I simply call them as I see them and I own all of it.


then when I say you will regularly post that management at TiVo is wrong (which you did at length again) it is not unfair or inaccurate.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

spitfires said:


> Agreed, but only TiVo know where that break point is. Our best estimate is that at least 2,000 people were on "tenner a month" right up till Tivo stopped taking the subs. last November. That's 2000 * £10 * 12 = £240,000 a year ($384k). Hardly uneconomic even allowing for the cost of paying Tribune for the guide data.
> 
> Multiply that by 8 years and you can see that Tivo have NOT been running the UK service as a charity for the last 8 years.
> 
> Obviously the VM deal is worth many millions (and increasing rather than diminishing) each year so it was a no brainer to dump the UK S1 customer base.


right up until some months ago, TiVo had a business model around the guide data. As you note the VM deal is a much better business model. It is no coincidence that the dropping of fees and then service coincides with the VM deal.

the only 2 courses that look possible are get a court make TiVo supply Guide data to lifetime at least, this is a long shot
or find some group that can supply the hack that lets guide data come form some other source


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## DavidTJones (Jun 26, 2008)

Write to BBC Watchdog, National Press, lobby your MP.
I've done all 3 if everyone who posts on this forum does likewise we will embarrass the hell out of Virgin Media and Tivo Inc.
Don't be misled its a corporate bullying ploy to get as many existing Tivo users to sign up for VM's offering and to pay for premium rate program package.
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT and lets the the media asking questions eventually the service will be restored. Neither VM nor Tivo Inc can afford bad publicity up to the VM Tivo launch.
Get emailing, writing,twittering spread the word and act now


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> then when I say you will regularly post that management at TiVo is wrong (which you did at length again) it is not unfair or inaccurate.


Whatever dude.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

petew said:


> Presumably the law of diminishing returns. TiVo must have a fixed overhead to prepare the guide data and a small per user cost to deliver the data. Eventually with a diminishing number of subscribers providing the service becomes un-economical.


I don't think that has anything to do with it. If the cost for TiVo of getting a mutually exclusive deal with Virgin was disappointing a few thousand SKY subscribers with 10 year old TiVos then that's simply a no-brainer.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

lessd said:


> If you have lifetime service on your TiVo your agreement is the one in force at the time you purchased the Lifetime Service, I doubt any court would let any co change an agreement in such a fixed situation as lifetime.


Afraid not- you are making the classic mistake: it is _not_ "Lifetime Service", it is "Lifetime Subscription". You get a free _subscription_ to the service but that gives absolutely no guarantees about how long that service need last. (A rolling 30-day period)

Your original Agreement included the clause (see Clause 1) allowing TiVo to change the terms at any time if they gave you notice. Which they have done. It's the same as your credit card company changing the terms of your credit card Agreement over time - if you got your credit card 20 years you are bound by the _current_ terms not those in force when you first got the card. All perfectly legal and you agreed to it when you first took up the service.

Tivo can cut you off on a whim simply by giving you 30 days notice. Doesn't matter whether you have a Lifetime Subscription or not.

.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

petew said:


> Presumably the law of diminishing returns. TiVo must have a fixed overhead to prepare the guide data and a small per user cost to deliver the data. Eventually with a diminishing number of subscribers providing the service becomes un-economical.


But there were many overtures made to TiVo to take and run this service from the UK at negligible cost to them. They never responded.


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## PeterYoung (Feb 17, 2011)

Hi

My name is Peter Young and I'm a freelance journalist in the UK. I've been following this story with interest and am in the process of writing an article for one of the UK media magazines. Originally it was themed around TiVo dumping Series 1 users but now I think that there is a more interesting story as to how much VirginMedia are behind this.

If you have any information that you would like to pass onto me then please email me at peteryoung1952 at gmail.com.

My partner, Claire, is also a freelance journalist and is interested in writing a separate piece for some women's magazines on the human aspects about this. Again, feel free to email her (use my account).

Thanks 

Peter


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Peter, why don't you see if you can get any Huffington Post "ink" on this story while you're at it. Maybe not a better readership than Slashdot or El Reg, but a broader one.

I'd like to see the U.S. public made more aware of this.


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## steveroe (Oct 29, 2002)

PeterYoung said:


> Hi
> 
> My name is Peter Young and I'm a freelance journalist in the UK. I've been following this story with interest and am in the process of writing an article for one of the UK media magazines. Originally it was themed around TiVo dumping Series 1 users but now I think that there is a more interesting story as to how much VirginMedia are behind this.
> 
> ...


Peter, you may want to come and introduce yourself on the UK Forum as well


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## ac3dd (Mar 2, 2002)

If TiVo tries to dump the lifetime service customers of S1 (or S2 or S3) in the US, they'll have a class action lawsuit on their hands.

They might be able to prevail with expensive lawyers, but if they do, they're still being short-sighted by dumping those users. After a long absence from this forum I came back because I was considering buying a second TiVo and wanted to learn more about the latest TiVo models out there.

But then I find out about this discontinuation of service in the UK, which has me worried that they'll do the same in the US. So now I'm definitely not buying another TiVo box anytime soon, and my efforts will be dedicated to exploring the alternatives.

Whatever little they save by dumping those users, they're probably going to lose more from the bad PR.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ac3dd said:


> If TiVo tries to dump the lifetime service customers of S1 (or S2 or S3) in the US, they'll have a class action lawsuit on their hands.
> 
> They might be able to prevail with expensive lawyers, but if they do, they're still being short-sighted by dumping those users. After a long absence from this forum I came back because I was considering buying a second TiVo and wanted to learn more about the latest TiVo models out there.
> 
> But then I find out about this discontinuation of service in the UK, which has me worried that they'll do the same in the US. .


again these are two very different things. TiVo never sold a standalone beyond S1 in the UK. They stopped selling any model of standalone 7 years ago.
so in the US - you would never see them turn off lifetime for just some models while other modles were in service. I think lawyers could stop that pretty easily.
Now if TiVo announces that they are are going to stop selling hardware - then you have 7 years to worry


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

You are mixing up the selling of the hardware with the selling of the service. Half of UK customers have been paying £120 a year, *every* year since TiVo stopped selling hardware.



> so in the US - you would never see them turn off lifetime for just some models while other modles were in service. I think lawyers could stop that pretty easily.


Seriously... please read your Agreement.

TiVo could turn off *any* US user (be it S1,S2,S3 or S4) with just 30 days notice, and no lawyer anywhere would be able to stop them.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

What is *funny* is that the agreement in its current form doesn't really mean a thing as it is initially declared that they can change it at any time for any reason. It also states that if you don't like the changes your only recourse is to stop using the service.

What is _*scary*_ is that this sets a precedent no one ever figured Tivo would set as "service" is their business model. Not any more... If there is a better deal elsewhere, TiVo can and may pull the plug on you.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Exactly, that's my point... be afraid, be very afraid. 

They've done it in the UK, and there's nothing to stop them doing it in the US too.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

spitfires said:


> You are mixing up the selling of the hardware with the selling of the service. Half of UK customers have been paying £120 a year, *every* year since TiVo stopped selling hardware..


I am merely stating that not selling standalone hardware of any kind is a very good indication that the service will indeed stop at some point. This really is not some 30 day shocker and the writing has been on the wall. The hard part in the UK is that many simply have no decent alternative at all even if they fretted about this for years.

so is TiVo going to stop say just S1 subscriptions in the US. Not likely.

What is more likely and slowly happening is that 800 numbers for dial in service dry up. So you need to find a local number or badger TiVo to get the 3rd party handling dial in access to set a local number up.

also always a possibility given the economics is that TiVo would announce they are exiting the standalone hardware market. If they did that, then likely they would continue guide data for some length of time that would cover the 'usable' life of the latest hardware sales. either 4 or 5 years and thus satisfy to courts they 'honored' the lifetime subs. Or - pretty much what they did in the UK.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Tivo cannot unilaterally discontinue lifetime service under the terms of the old agreement - any court will find them liable on this and I think this is a perfect case for a class action. As someone else said, the only way they can get out of this (IMO) is bankruptcy.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> Tivo cannot unilaterally discontinue lifetime service under the terms of the old agreement - any court will find them liable on this and I think this is a perfect case for a class action. As someone else said, the only way they can get out of this (IMO) is bankruptcy.


In the worst case for TiVo, they could probably just refund the lifetime fee paid and have no further obligation whatsoever, except for the possibility of a court imposing some sort of punishment -- if the UK courts lean towards doing such things.


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## okonski_uk (Dec 28, 2000)

As I recall, the final act of TiVo pulling out of the UK (back in 2004+ was a new software drop that permitted the tuners to work like a VCR with no requirement for EPG data.

However, in 2010-2012 we've had the analogue switch off, so the Tivo tuners will also be redundant - yet nobody's complaining to the Govt about this... only TiVo have had the good sense to realise the market has moved on and with the VM deal, keeps the light burning bright for those fortunate to be in serviced areas.

I've now got my TiVo Premiere, and the £600 (around US$1000) I paid for my S1 and a Lifetime sub has been well compensated. It's a shame everyone isn't looked after, but you have to just roll with the breaks that you get.

I also don't believe the balance of 50% being unable to get TiVo service. As cable covers geographically intense urban areas, there is a loaw of diminishing returns on areas away from the core, as is costs more to serve less customers per mile of cable laid. I have neighbours on Sky who could be Virgin cable customers, but are not. That's their choice. But if they want TiVo, they've only one option. 

VM aren't stupid - and as Tivo Inc were effectively misled by Sky (who dumped TiVo to run with their own box) I'm not in the least concerned. What goes around comes around.


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## okonski_uk (Dec 28, 2000)

dswallow said:


> In the worst case for TiVo, they could probably just refund the lifetime fee paid and have no further obligation whatsoever, except for the possibility of a court imposing some sort of punishment -- if the UK courts lean towards doing such things.


This wouldn;t happen, as for most users, the TiVo tuner would be inoperative as analogue signals will have (or are about to) cease forever. There's little point in providing EPG data for a tuner that cannot recieve transmissions.


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## velocitysurfer1 (Sep 6, 2006)

okonski_uk said:


> This wouldn;t happen, as for most users, the TiVo tuner would be inoperative as analogue signals will have (or are about to) cease forever. There's little point in providing EPG data for a tuner that cannot recieve transmissions.


But you don't need to use the analogue tuner. The UK S1 TiVos are quite happy controlling an external digital tuner box (sky digital, freeview, freesat and cable) and using SCART as it's input (from the external box). I'm assuming that this is how most uk TiVos are used


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## Bluefastcar (Nov 3, 2004)

velocitysurfer1 said:


> But you don't need to use the analogue tuner. The UK S1 TiVos are quite happy controlling an external digital tuner box (sky digital, freeview, freesat and cable) and using SCART as it's input (from the external box). I'm assuming that this is how most uk TiVos are used


Correct. Thats how I've always used mine. Never recorded via the internal tuner.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

okonski_uk said:


> I also don't believe the balance of 50% being unable to get TiVo service.


Why not?

When they were first sold in the UK the main options were terrestrial or Sky. Both of these had c.98% geographical coverage. There was no restriction placed on the sales locations for the TiVo boxes (other than they were hard to find in Scotland  ) so there is no reason to assume there was anything other than an even geographic spread of TiVo buyers across the UK.

However Virgin television only covers 51% of the UK households and so it is perfectly reasonable to assume that 49% of existing TiVo customers cannot get the new VM TiVo. 
(and these numbers are borne out by the (admittedly imprecise) poll running in the UK forum).


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> Tivo cannot unilaterally discontinue lifetime service under the terms of the old agreement - any court will find them liable on this


You are wrong. _Read_ the Agreement.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I've read this thread which quotes the sections you are referring to, and I don't think it applies here because it is clearly stated to be lifetime service. Lifetime directly contradicts service termination, in other words, and I think any reasonable court would find the same. It would apply to monthly.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Well good luck with that, but you are going to lose. Wishful thinking on your part. There is nothing in your Agreement supporting your theory. Any court (reasonable or not) will ask you to close the door on your way out.


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## melmatic (Nov 24, 2009)

spitfires said:


> Why not?
> 
> When they were first sold in the UK the main options were terrestrial or Sky. Both of these had c.98% geographical coverage. There was no restriction placed on the sales locations for the TiVo boxes (other than they were hard to find in Scotland  ) so there is no reason to assume there was anything other than an even geographic spread of TiVo buyers across the UK.


Except for the fact that TiVo wasn't selling in huge numbers, Sky gave up caring when it launched Sky+ in Sept 2001 and TiVo then struck a deal with NTL (now Virgin Media) to sell directly to cable customers. While its true that initial sales may have enjoyed an even geographic spread, towards the end the only significant marketing for TiVo S1 boxes was coming from cable.

http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=934716


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

spitfires said:


> Afraid not- you are making the classic mistake: it is _not_ "Lifetime Service", it is "Lifetime Subscription". You get a free _subscription_ to the service but that gives absolutely no guarantees about how long that service need last. (A rolling 30-day period)
> 
> Your original Agreement included the clause (see Clause 1) allowing TiVo to change the terms at any time if they gave you notice. Which they have done. It's the same as your credit card company changing the terms of your credit card Agreement over time - if you got your credit card 20 years you are bound by the _current_ terms not those in force when you first got the card. All perfectly legal and you agreed to it when you first took up the service.
> 
> ...


*Not so*; as you can't say in one part of the contract that you will get a Lifetime Subscription for the life of your TiVo and in a 2nd part say we can cancel you with a 30 day notice, the 2nd part would not be enforceable for any lifetime TiVos. Only bankruptcy could change the lifetime Subscription part of the contract. CC are monthly by nature and so is a monthly service Subscription TiVo, both can be changed with notice. A statement in a contract does not make the statement automatically enforceable.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Agreed.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lessd said:


> *Not so*; as you can't say in one part of the contract that you will get a Lifetime Subscription for the life of your TiVo and in a 2nd part say we can cancel you with a 30 day notice, the 2nd part would not be enforceable for any lifetime TiVos. Only bankruptcy could change the lifetime Subscription part of the contract. CC are monthly by nature and so is a monthly service Subscription TiVo, both can be changed with notice. A statement in a contract does not make the statement automatically enforceable.


and yet TiVo is cutting off service to boxes with Lifetime in the UK


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Sounds like an opportunity to start a business in the UK to provide limited (as in Guide Data and scheduling functions) service to the Series 1. This of course require working with TiVo to get the in's-n-out's of TiVo's mind servers. The TiVo Service agreements only affect the TiVo Service, not the service provided by a third party.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> This of course require working with TiVo to get the in's-n-out's of TiVo's mind servers.


And you think Tivo would willingly part with that information? 
If so, let me talk to you about some land I've got...


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

melmatic said:


> Except for the fact that TiVo wasn't selling in huge numbers, Sky gave up caring when it launched Sky+ in Sept 2001 and TiVo then struck a deal with NTL (now Virgin Media) to sell directly to cable customers. While its true that initial sales may have enjoyed an even geographic spread, towards the end the only significant marketing for TiVo S1 boxes was coming from cable.


Rubbish. Tivo was selling in huuuge numbers. Sky were not responsible for selling it - only for the customer support. The NTL deal was too little too late and very few sales were made to cable customers before Tivo pulled out of the UK. It was almost impossible to buy a new TiVo box in the UK after Sept 2002 - the shops didn't have any stock left. (Therefore very few *could* have been sold to cable customers even if the latter had wanted one).


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

lessd said:


> you can't say in one part of the contract that you will get a Lifetime Subscription for the life of your TiVo and in a 2nd part say we can cancel you with a 30 day notice, the 2nd part would not be enforceable for any lifetime TiVos.


Why do you think the 2nd part is the one that wouldn't be enforceabele - why wouldn't the *1st* part be deemed unenforceable? Oh wait... because you _want_ it to be so.


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## Sharkietour (Oct 22, 2002)

Well I've just done this: watchdog @ bbc . co . uk - a few spaces entered to get around the link/posts issue


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I don't see any lawyers here, so we're all just speculating. But lifetime service means lifetime to me, and it's clear that Tivo was worried about this when they modified the agreement to add 'useable' lifetime instead. Not sure if anyone cares enough to contact a lawyer in the UK, but I think it warrants a look if they do.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

petew said:


> ........TiVo stopped selling units in the UK in 2003........





slowbiscuit said:


> I don't see any lawyers here, so we're all just speculating. But lifetime service means lifetime to me, and it's clear that Tivo was worried about this when they modified the agreement to add 'useable' lifetime instead. Not sure if anyone cares enough to contact a lawyer in the UK, but I think it warrants a look if they do.


I have to suspect the majority of UK TiVo's have had a hard drive replacement. (If not, we need to find out what kind of drive they use that lasts 7+ years. ) Doesn't TiVo have a valid legal argument that HDD replacement is a modification that invalidates the lifetime service terms?

Yes, it is well known that TiVo hasn't used this argument against US owners, but that doesn't prove the legal argument doesn't exist.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

dlfl said:


> I have to suspect the majority of UK TiVo's have had a hard drive replacement. (If not, we need to find out what kind of drive they use that lasts 7+ years. ) Doesn't TiVo have a valid legal argument that HDD replacement is a modification that invalidates the lifetime service terms?
> 
> Yes, it is well known that TiVo hasn't used this argument against US owners, but that doesn't prove the legal argument doesn't exist.


I agree with that point. Artificially extending the usability by modifying the original hardware provided would put the DVR owner in breech of the Service Agreement:


> You may access and use the TiVo service only with a TiVo DVR that is authorized to receive the TiVo service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify your TiVo DVR.


But indeed if there are (working) unmodified units out there, the usability remains intact.

Edit: Another question just came to mind. Is Weaknees/DVRUpgrade _authorized_ TiVo Service centers? Would sending in a DVR to be fixed keep the DVR "unmodified" in terms of the Service Agreement?


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## steveroe (Oct 29, 2002)

dlfl said:


> I have to suspect the majority of UK TiVo's have had a hard drive replacement. (If not, we need to find out what kind of drive they use that lasts 7+ years. ) Doesn't TiVo have a valid legal argument that HDD replacement is a modification that invalidates the lifetime service terms?


I personally have two still running original drives


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

dlfl said:


> I have to suspect the majority of UK TiVo's have had a hard drive replacement. (If not, we need to find out what kind of drive they use that lasts 7+ years. )


Original Sony Series 1 30GB drive (2000) was working fine at 7 years when we replaced it with a Series 3. Upgraded Philips Series 1 Maxtor 120GB drive (2002) is still working at 9 years in my son's game room.

Scott


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

orangeboy said:


> I agree with that point. Artificially extending the usability by modifying the original hardware provided would put the DVR owner in breech of the Service Agreement:
> 
> The UK agreement says:
> 
> ...


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

> They can cancel at any time. No company can promise service forever.


I think all reasonable people know this. Obviously there are reasonable people and then there are some who live by their own rules and cannot be reasoned with, but ya gotta love 'em.

My favorite example is the, if the ad showed it.. they have to give it to me law. As classically shown in the Pepsi Harrier case.
http://www.snopes.com/business/deals/pepsijet.asp

Then you have the Florida lottery misprints, etc.. Some really funny stuff.

Fact is, everything in life has fine print allowing a company to get out of it, refuse to sell it, etc.. Why would any company limit it's options in the future?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

spitfires said:


> Why do you think the 2nd part is the one that wouldn't be enforceabele - why wouldn't the *1st* part be deemed unenforceable? Oh wait... because you _want_ it to be so.


If you know contract law you would know that any court will allow the person reading the contract to interpret the contract any way that does not conflict directly with the language used, thus two conflicting statements will almost always be found in favor of the consumer. This has nothing to do with me as TiVo not doing anything to me on my Lifetime TiVos, many parts of TiVos contract would not stand up in court, but i will also say that there is some time limit on how long TiVo would have to provide service on any Lifetime unit and i don't know what that time is but i know it would be more than 5 years and most likely not 20 years. A contract has to have reasonable interpretation by the person who has to read it not by the people that wrote it. That why i said that in most cases when two statements conflict the writer can't press for their statement *A* when statement *B* is more in the interest of the customer.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and yet TiVo is cutting off service to boxes with Lifetime in the UK


*Yes after 7 years*; as i have said more than 5 years is needed 20 years of service is most likely more that TiVo would legally have to supply.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I thought the profit center for Tivo was the subscription fees. Why not just let the non Virgin Media users continue to retrieve guide data? The Virgin Media DVRs will have to retrieve guide data. The only difference is maintaining non Virgin Media guide information.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lessd said:


> *Yes after 7 years*; as i have said more than 5 years is needed 20 years of service is most likely more that TiVo would legally have to supply.


and if you read the thread I have also stated more or less what you just said. I was simply saying the other point that the 30 days gives TiVo some leeway is also true.



shwru980r said:


> I thought the profit center for Tivo was the subscription fees. Why not just let the non Virgin Media users continue to retrieve guide data? The Virgin Media DVRs will have to retrieve guide data. The only difference is maintaining non Virgin Media guide information.


I think you have to ask VM that question


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

lessd said:


> If you know contract law you would know that any court will allow the person reading the contract to interpret the contract any way that does not conflict directly with the language used, thus two conflicting statements will almost always be found in favor of the consumer. This has nothing to do with me as TiVo not doing anything to me on my Lifetime TiVos, many parts of TiVos contract would not stand up in court, ...


Golly, if only TiVo had bothered to run this thing by someone who knows contract law.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

nrc said:


> Golly, if only TiVo had bothered to run this thing by someone who knows contract law.


Like Campbell soup co. did, OH you may not remember that case as it was a long time ago, and if lawyers were so smart they would not add to most contracts that* if any part of this contract is found not enforceable the rest will still will be enforceable * or words to that effect. You or any co. can write what they want in a contract but until or unless it is challenged in court you or I or anybody else can't give a definite answer as to what is really enforceable in any given contract. TiVos so called smart lawyers already had a problem with their first contract and it was challenged in court and a settlement was made about what Lifetime Service meant.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

dlfl said:


> I have to suspect the majority of UK TiVo's have had a hard drive replacement. (If not, we need to find out what kind of drive they use that lasts 7+ years. ) Doesn't TiVo have a valid legal argument that HDD replacement is a modification that invalidates the lifetime service terms?
> 
> Yes, it is well known that TiVo hasn't used this argument against US owners, but that doesn't prove the legal argument doesn't exist.


Our hard disk is still original.


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## Hogues92 (Jan 8, 2006)

spitfires said:


> Well good luck with that, but you are going to lose. Wishful thinking on your part. There is nothing in your Agreement supporting your theory. Any court (reasonable or not) will ask you to close the door on your way out.


That is absolutely untrue. Courts void provisions of contracts all the time. Just because it's written down, doesn't mean that it's necessarily enforceable, or that it's set in stone. The courts will look to a contract provision to see is it is valid or if it is void (or voidable, illegal, etc...). Examples of this would be the ISP who put a provision in the contract prohibiting class action law suits. That was found to be void (or voidable, I can never remember which is which). Or the race track that made drivers sign a waiver but created conditions that allowed that provision to be void.

In other words, just because Tivo put something in their contract, doesn't mean it's set in stone.


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## Hogues92 (Jan 8, 2006)

nrc said:


> Golly, if only TiVo had bothered to run this thing by someone who knows contract law.


Contracts that are run by cooperate lawyers are tossed out all the time.


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## GWR71 (Feb 22, 2011)

spitfires said:


> Rubbish. Tivo was selling in huuuge numbers


Seriously? The estimate I've seen is a total of 35,000 units sold by the time Thomson dropped the UK S1. Set against Sky+ sales of millions, I'm not sure how TiVo's UK sales ever counted as "huge".

And let's face it, if TiVo sales *had* been "huge", wouldn't it be much better known in the UK than it is? Almost nobody had heard of it in 2003 when TiVo pulled out of the UK, and even fewer people have ever heard of it nowadays.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Hogues92 said:


> Contracts that are run by cooperate lawyers are tossed out all the time.


+1


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

spitfires said:


> This is where everyone goes wrong - it is not called a Lifetime _Service_ - it is a Lifetime _Subscription_. All it gets you is freedom from paying a subscription. It is not at odds with Clause 15 in any way.
> 
> Any judge (even one in California  ) would recognise that Clause 15 takes precedence over Clauses 14 & 9 (which promise nothing by way of length of service).
> 
> ...


For Lifetime (don't care what words you put after the word Lifetime) is for the life of the TiVo, not your life and not subject to a random 30 day no reason cancellation, at least for a going company. All contracts can be read to the advantage on the customer in almost all cases, many court cases have confirmed this, so if a conflict statement is used in a contract you the customer can use the statement that has most advantage to you. If you upgrade your TiVo yourself than another part of the contract comes into play and any cancellation would be for a reason that is stated in the contract. I would bet that less than 30% of TiVo owners take their TiVo apart, as you can upgrade any TiVo from the Series 3 on with a TiVo approved external hard disk.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

IAAL, but I am not your lawyer, I am not specifically advising anyone on anything here, just want to clear the air a bit purely for USA-based folks.

With respect to the "continually self-updating agreement" and lifetime subscriptions: the agreement originally entered into almost certainly controls. That's not just opinion or layperson guesswork - that's fact. See Douglas v. US Dist. Ct. for Central District of CA, ex rel Talk America - 495 F.3d 1062. The Supreme Court denied cert on the issue, meaning that it still controls in the 9th Circuit, where Tivo is based, at least as far as I can see via two minutes of quick poking around Westlaw, which is all I'm going to invest. Sure, if it gets to court you can TRY to distinguish it, but that's an uphill battle I think. The bottom line is, unilateral updates to an agreement that are merely posted on the internet are unlikely to be effective.

(Yes, Tivo's lawyers undoubtedly know this, but they also know that they can essentially draft the agreement however they want and reap the benefits until someone spends lots of money and time to force the issue - it's a common corporate legal strategy. Ask me how I know (don't actually ask, but you get the idea.))
Note that there's at least some argument that this only applies to *lifetime* subscribers - there's a possibility that each subsequent monthly payment provides occasion to renew the agreement and make changes thereto. Not going to look into that issue, since frankly it's more involved and depends on things I don't care to look into - but suffice to say the lifetime argument is a stronger one.

Finally, as a purely practical matter, all the worrying about this is kind of pointless. If Tivo goes bust, yeah, that's going to suck and no legal argument is going to help. Otherwise, even if the original terms included a unilateral termination clause similar to that at issue here, if Tivo actually exercised it short of winding up/buyout/etc, they would certainly spend lots of time and money defending the inevitable lawsuits and conducting PR damage control lest their business partners get scared off. In other words, it's not something they would undertake lightly, even if truly on death's door. Just pointing that out in an effort to maybe avoid anyone getting worked up needlessly.

Or maybe I have too much faith in the ability of Tivo management for rational thought.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

My guess is the UK TiVo users do not have the critical mass to get a class action off the ground.
Add in that there is work on the hack to send out guide data and that likely will be free then the time is best spent hacking the TiVo anyway.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep, I'd take a good hack over a mostly worthless (except to lawyers) class action anyway.


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

Only six days till Tivo pull the plug out of the life support machine 

Automan.


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## gtrogue (Jun 18, 2001)

bschuler2007 said:


> I think the majority of the US Tivo owners have, over the last year now, come to terms and accepted that they are on borrowed time...


People have been saying that since 2000. Tivo has been on the verge of collapse since the day they opened their doors but have somehow continued to survive. There is a place for Tivo but they still haven't really found where that is.
They were the king of the DVR's when they launched. The time shifting features (what us old timers bought Tivo's for in the first place) were way ahead of everyone else and stayed that way for many years. The old UI was better than anyone else's and, HD or SD, still better than most cable provider's DVR's.
The problem they face now is that other DVR's have caught up in usability and features and other devices like Roku, Boxee Box, GoogleTV, & AppleTV are passing it by in online features and capabilities.
I think part of the reason they lag in online features is that they have a need to placate cable operators and others don't.
Ultimately Tivo is stuck in the middle right now. I still think they are towards the top in DVR features but mediocre in online and streaming. They would be much better off if they just picked a direction and went there full tilt. They don't seem to be able to do both.
I own a Boxee Box, Roku HD, and Tivo Premiere. Last night while watching HBOGo on my Boxee Box I commented to my wife that if we could get college and pro football online we wouldn't need cable TV at all. This type of cord cutting is exactly what cable companies don't want and as long as Tivo is trying to strike deals with cable operators they can't move too far in the direction that can hurt them.

I've said before that if you took the online and codec support of the Boxee Box and combined them with Tivo's integrated search and DVR you would have the ultimate STB. Unfortunately, what I just described will most likely end up being a future edition of the Google TV rather than Tivo.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

In this case, TiVo is not going away altogether, just service for Standalone UK series 1s, because Virgin Cable now has exclusive TiVo rights, and they at least do not want to service the Stadaloe customers.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> I think the majority of the US Tivo owners have, over the last year now, come to terms and accepted that they are on borrowed time.


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## martink0646 (Feb 8, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> My guess is the UK TiVo users do not have the critical mass to get a class action off the ground.


The UK legal system doesn't support class action lawsuits. AIUI bearing in mind IANAL, Solicitors (Lawyers) will gather the plaintiffs together & try one example case. The idea is that the *settlement* will be applied to everyone rather than the judgement. To get a judgement, every single plaintiff has to go before the court as the judgement can only apply to each individually to each plaintiff/case. Obviously, if the settlement is a favourable one then everyone with a case can apply to participate in the settlement, not only the original plaintiff group.

This means that the UK users don't need 'a critical mass'.

Martin


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