# What next for non cable customers?



## spitfires

Time to start seriously thinking about what options we non-cable customers will have.

It should be obvious that Virgin have two aims:
1) Get all Tivo customers in cable areas onto the VM package
2) Do nothing for Tivo customers in non-cable areas

There's simply no profit for them in (2) and it's not 'core' business anyway. Don't forget, Virgin _weren't_ buying the customer base but the technology!

Equally there is no point in them letting Tivo users IN cabled areas stay on a non-VM package - therefore I can see it will be VM or nothing for those of you who can get cable. And I'm sure Virgin will have made Tivo sign an exclusivity contract ensuring Tivo can't offer any other Tivo service in Virgin cabled areas.

Speculation time... there's maybe what a thousand (at best) Tivo customers left in the UK? Take out those in cable areas leaves what... 100-200 perhaps? Say half of those are on lifetime subs which leaves maybe 50-100 on TAM. Would Tivo want to support such a small number of customers for such low income? And could they? - seeing as they have always outsourced the support of the service (and as noted I can't see Virgin taking on non-VM customers - it's just *not* what they do!).

Perhaps maybe possibly they could somehow offer support from the USA? Unlikely. Best we could hope for would be a sort of "guide data only" service - i.e. no support.

So what options do we have? It has been mentioned on here in the past about "alternative sources for guide data". 
Is that possible/practical? If Tivo drop all support could we get the data direct from Tribune/whoever?

And please don't say to wait and see what Tivo 'offer' in a few months time - I'm a Project Manager and we plan *in advance* for all possible outcomes. If you're rock climbing you don't 'wait and see' if the rope breaks before having a back-up plan!

(And before you flame me... Yes this is pure conjecture but it's no worse than what usually happens on here!  )


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## Trinitron

spitfires said:


> I'm sure Virgin will have made Tivo sign an exclusivity contract ensuring Tivo can't offer any other Tivo service in Virgin cabled areas.


I'm not. It will be exclusive in terms of the new service, but Virgin need have little input into the current S1 service, which is provided direct from TiVo in the US, using data from Tribune.

TiVo have probably written off lifetime subs now as life expired (there is a provision for this in their latest financial statements), and appear to be doing the same for S1 monthly subs until the Virgin situation is sorted out. TiVo need the VM and Studio Canal deals to grow their revenues, which are reducing again after good results in the last couple of years, largely due to a drop in direct subscriptions in the US.

I don't see there is much us mere subscribers can do until Virgin or TiVo decide to drop the S1 boxes. Supply and extraction of guide data can be done independently, as users in Australia, NZ and Canada have shown, but running it alongside official data is a potential minefield legally.


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## mikerr

Similar thread in the VM Tivo forum on here:
What about us NON cabled S1 owners??


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## spitfires

Trinitron said:


> Supply and extraction of guide data can be done independently, as users in Australia, NZ and Canada have shown,


So there _is_ hope then if/when Tivo pull the plug 



mikerr said:


> Similar thread in the VM Tivo forum


Ah yes - I don't bother looking there since I'm not interested in VM since I can't get it!


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## PhilG

spitfires said:


> So there _is_ hope then if/when Tivo pull the plug
> 
> Ah yes - I don't bother looking there since I'm not interested in VM since I can't get it!


BUT I posted the question "over there" just to make the point that there ARE happy Tivo customers who CANNOT migrate to the new VM Tivo, even if they wanted to

Phil G


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## Pete77

spitfires said:


> Speculation time... there's maybe what a thousand (at best) Tivo customers left in the UK? Take out those in cable areas leaves what... 100-200 perhaps? Say half of those are on lifetime subs which leaves maybe 50-100 on TAM.


I think you are way off the mark in terms of the number of Tivos still in use. There were 20,000 or more originally and I would think around 40% of those machines are still in use. Most of the retirees are Monthly subbed machines. The Lifetimes are normally kept going even if they are handed on to Aunty or the parents. Tivocentral seems to do a very brisk trade in replacement drives as far as I can tell.

So I would reckon at least 4,000 machines still in use outside Virgin cable land.


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## TCM2007

We're all guessing, but I would imagine there are maybe 2,000 TiVos in active use, most of which are lifetimed and networked. If there are 500 monthly subbed dial up TiVos in use I'd be surprised.


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> If there are 500 monthly subbed dial up TiVos in use I'd be surprised.


And I have already pointed out that the daily call is unlikely to cost more than 5p per day or £18.75 per year for the units that still dial up. So by my calculations the cost of the phone calls is under £10,000 per annum if we accept your remaining Tivo user figures. Only slightly more than the cost of a couple of two return Business class tickets across the Atlantic. Not to mention the cost of a few days hotel stay in a decent London hotel.

So a Tivo Inc marketing person might think it was cheaper to go on paying the bills than flying over to London to investigate whether or not they needed to continue S1 service in the UK.

I think the cost of the 0800 phone calls is a red herring. The cost of the EPG contract with Tribune for the UK S1 Tivos is probably the more significant factor in considering for how long S1 UK Tivo service carries on.


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## afrokiwi

So back to the original topic of this thread &#8220;What next for non cable customers?&#8221;


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## Pete77

afrokiwi said:


> So back to the original topic of this thread "What next for non cable customers?"


Continued use of the Tivo S1 units is what lies ahead for them until such time as new rules about the opening up of BT cable ducts etc to exchanges to other operators and or using BT poles to hang fibre overhead to homes come in to force and allow Virgin to expand their network at an affordable price.


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## katman

I think it would be in Tivo's best interests to keep the S1 units working even if it costs them a few thousand per year because without doubt, the existing users will only remain on S1 units if they CANT get the new Virgin service but they would still continue to tell everyone they meet how vastly superior even the first generation units are to the current Sky and Freeview alternatives.

Killing off our units would leave us with very bitter feelings about the company and would probably result in us not spreading the word as we have been for the last decade.

The only devices better than a Series 1 Tivo are Series 2,3 & 4 Tivos


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## PhilG

katman said:


> I think it would be in Tivo's best interests to keep the S1 units working even if it costs them a few thousand per year because without doubt, the existing users will only remain on S1 units if they CANT get the new Virgin service but they would still continue to tell everyone they meet how vastly superior even the first generation units are to the current Sky and Freeview alternatives.
> 
> Killing off our units would leave us with very bitter feelings about the company and would probably result in us not spreading the word as we have been for the last decade.
> 
> The only devices better than a Series 1 Tivo are Series 2,3 & 4 Tivos


As a monthly subbed user (and PLEASE don't do the maths of £10 per month for the last 10 years.....) I'd be quite happy to go BACK to paying £10 per month to keep things going


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## cwaring

PhilG said:


> As a monthly subbed user (and PLEASE don't do the maths of £10 per month for the last 10 years.....)


LOL! Yeah. Scary thought


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## spitfires

Trinitron said:


> spitfires said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure Virgin will have made Tivo sign an exclusivity contract ensuring Tivo can't offer any other Tivo service in Virgin cabled areas.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not. It will be exclusive in terms of the new service, but Virgin need have little input into the current S1 service
Click to expand...

I was working for a well known mobile phone company when Virgin were looking for an outsource for their mobile phone operation - I can assure you this is _exactly_ the sort of thing Virgin would insist upon!



katman said:


> Killing off our units would leave us with very bitter feelings about the company and would probably result in us not spreading the word as we have been for the last decade.


Not so relevant in the future though - the service will be a "Virgin Media" service and not a "Tivo" service. The network will be controlled by Virgin, the content will be controlled by Virgin, the EPG will be supplied by Virgin, cust support will be supplied by Virgin, the box will be supplied by ? (but not Tivo). All Tivo are providing is the user interface.

Saying how good is Tivo Inc. to potential Virgin Media customers isn't going to be worth much. It'd be like saying how great Bosch is as a company when you're looking to buy a Ford Escort.

Even a couple of thousand Tivo advocates are going to be swamped by 1m+ Virgin customers spreading the word on VM forums/Facebook/Twitter/blah/blah.


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## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> Continued use of the Tivo S1 units is what lies ahead for them [...]


So you think Tivo will _still_ keep the service going even though (as you seem to agree) it would probably be running at a loss?

Daily calls £10k, Tribune contract £50k(?), Virgin support for non-VM customers £100k(?), income from TAM customers post Virgin agreement say £60k

Tivo have subsidised the service for the last several years to keep their "foot in the door" - quite clearly the VM agreement means they now have no intention of providing any direct service in the future, so why keep a handful of S1 users at ever-increasing cost and ever-diminishing returns? Doesn't make business sense.


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## Pete77

spitfires said:


> Tivo have subsidised the service for the last several years to keep their "foot in the door" - quite clearly the VM agreement means they now have no intention of providing any direct service in the future, so why keep a handful of S1 users at ever-increasing cost and ever-diminishing returns? Doesn't make business sense.


But Tivo have never withdrawn service to any existing Tivo unit (Lifetime or pay monthly) that is still functioning and capable of obtaining the Guide Data from Tivo.

I think as long as they are still the original company that started it all in the USA that this is pretty much an article of faith that they are reluctant to see sullied for what is, as TCM himself has pointed out, such a tiny cost in the great scheme of things.

Of course if they are taken over by some larger more faceless corporate where the bean counters rule the roost and the original team are no longer in charge then all bets are off.

You need to remember that our relationship is with Tivo Inc and not with Virgin so nothing is changed by the launch of the Virgin product that uses a modfied Tivo operating system. And if I was a Tivo or a Virgin exec I would not want stories that Tivo has pulled the plug on all their original UK customers (especially those not living in a Virgin cabled area which Virgin does not want any attention drawn to because of the continued paucity of the extent of their network) circulating in just the same articles that might be writing up the Virgin Tivo.

Do you have any idea how much it costs for a company like Virgin or Tivo just to run a short advertising campaign on one of the main commercial channels to improve its brand and image. The cost of keeping the old Tivos going is absolute peanuts by comparison and as I have pointed out before the saving in one year would not even pay for the cost of a Tivo executive coming over to the UK to research the whole matter and write a report.


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## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> And if I was a Tivo or a Virgin exec I would not want stories that Tivo has pulled the plug on all their original UK customers (especially those not living in a Virgin cabled area which Virgin does not want any attention drawn to because of the continued paucity of the extent of their network) circulating in just the same articles that might be writing up the Virgin Tivo.


You think if TiVo stopped S1 guide data it would get a single column inch in mainstream media?


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> You think if TiVo stopped S1 guide data it would get a single column inch in mainstream media?


It would get column inches in any articles writing up the new Virgin Tivo service. However many of those articles appear in specialist magazine or on specialist website such as Techradar. I never said it would front page headlines in The Times or The Sun

But I hope you're surely not suggesting that what appears on websites like Techradar does not actually influence consumer purchasing decisions.


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## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> [...] nothing is changed by the launch of the Virgin product [...]


I wish I could be so bullish, but as I said above, knowing Virgin as I do it's highly likely they would insist on a "no competition" clause thereby leaving Tivo Inc with a tiny installed base for which they have no purpose any longer (now that they've achieved their objective of signing a "big player" and so don't need the UK direct consumer market).

I suppose one could read the VM Customer Support deal as a positive sign - I doubt VM would agree to take on non-cable customers for support without a good reason? Although their inability to re-activate old accounts (as described in other threads) is very worrying. Is it just a "6 months then bye bye" deal? The "good reason" could simply be that it gives VM the opportunity to legitimately outbound call cabled Tivo customers to upsell them onto the VM package, in exchange for answering the phones for 6 months. 

I can't help thinking that if it was Tivo Inc.'s long-term aim to keep the non-cable Tivo operation going they would have said so by now. There's no reason to keep quiet now the VM deal is public. We've had what 3 months and no word? The silence is very worrying.

p.s. I'm not being unduly pessimistic - I'd be totally lost without my Tivo! - but let's be pragmatic.


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## Pete77

spitfires said:


> I can't help thinking that if it was Tivo Inc.'s long-term aim to keep the non-cable Tivo operation going they would have said so by now. There's no reason to keep quiet now the VM deal is public. We've had what 3 months and no word? The silence is very worrying.
> 
> p.s. I'm not being unduly pessimistic - I'd be totally lost without my Tivo! - but let's be pragmatic.


I don't understand why you expect Tivo or for that matter Virgin to make so much noise about continuing to support an old product base.

Its not something that a company usually sings and dances about but just simply decides to do because it is the "right thing".

And oh by the way the more people like you say that you are surprised Tivo hasn't axed our S1 service yet the more you make it likely to actually happen.


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## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> It would get column inches in any articles writing up the new Virgin Tivo service. However many of those articles appear in specialist magazine or on specialist website such as Techradar. I never said it would front page headlines in The Times or The Sun
> 
> But I hope you're surely not suggesting that what appears on websites like Techradar does not actually influence consumer purchasing decisions.


Those articles have largely run. Full reviews in the next week or two and then that'll be that.


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## TCM2007

Spitfires - what Virgin Customer Support deal?

The VM deal is indeed exclusive, and was stated as such at the time.


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## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> And oh by the way the more people like you say that you are surprised Tivo hasn't axed our S1 service yet the more you make it likely to actually happen.


Exactly! So why don't Tivo Inc say something to put an end to the speculation? I'm not asking for a song and dance, just a simple system message to say "we are planning to continue your service forever".


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## spitfires

TCM2007 said:


> Spitfires - what Virgin Customer Support deal?


If you ring customer support do you not get put through to VM? Isn't it VM that are now doing customer support for Tivo UK?



TCM2007 said:


> The VM deal is indeed exclusive, and was stated as such at the time.


I'm not talking about the _technology supply_ (which was indeed stated to be exclusive) but the Tivo _customer base _ which VM have neither bought nor want.

I'm talking about the supply of PVRs in cabled areas - I am sure VM would make it a condition of the technology deal that Tivo do not supply competing product.

And before anyone says, "why would they - that has nothing to do it!" I suggest you investigate the purchase agreements between the big supermarkets and their suppliers; you can write anything you like into a contract!


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## mikerr

spitfires said:


> If you ring customer support do you not get put through to VM? Isn't it VM that are now doing customer support for Tivo UK?


0844 241 0703 ?
AFAIK it's still operated by Sky as it has been for the last 10 years.

If that had moved to VM it would be big news indeed.


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## spitfires

Ah right - sorry, my mistake there. I haven't rung cust support since once in 2002! 

That does change things for the better then. If the VM deal is totally ring-fenced (but I still don't rule out the "no competition" possibility) and Tivo are staying with Sky for existing customers then there is perhaps a better chance they (Tivo Inc) will continue the service.

Though it does still seem like an expensive business proposition for no good purpose (i.e. they no longer _need_ UK customers). It would be very altruistic of them. :up:


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## djqster

mikerr said:


> 0844 241 0703 ?
> AFAIK it's still operated by Sky as it has been for the last 10 years.
> 
> If that had moved to VM it would be big news indeed.


It's still the same old Sky 'We appreciate you' message you get whilst waiting on hold...

I've been ringing them trying to get mine reactivated.


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## TCM2007

spitfires said:


> I'm talking about the supply of PVRs in cabled areas - I am sure VM would make it a condition of the technology deal that Tivo do not supply competing product.
> 
> And before anyone says, "why would they - that has nothing to do it!" I suggest you investigate the purchase agreements between the big supermarkets and their suppliers; you can write anything you like into a contract!


The deal was exclusivity on the TiVo service.


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## spitfires

TCM2007 said:


> The deal was exclusivity on the TiVo service.


No it isn't. It is "mutually exclusive" in the sense that VM will only source their software from Tivo, and Tivo will supply the software only to VM. That's got nothing to do with the "Tivo service".


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## gazter

spitfires said:


> Speculation time... there's maybe what a thousand (at best) Tivo customers left in the UK? Take out those in cable areas leaves what... 100-200 perhaps? Say half of those are on lifetime subs which leaves maybe 50-100 on TAM. Would Tivo want to support such a small number of customers for such low income? And could they? - seeing as they have always outsourced the support of the service (and as noted I can't see Virgin taking on non-VM customers - it's just *not* what they do!).
> 
> Perhaps maybe possibly they could somehow offer support from the USA? Unlikely. Best we could hope for would be a sort of "guide data only" service - i.e. no support.
> )


Well, the alternatives out there have made the loss of Tivo more palatable. Windows 7 media centre with the necessary knowledge, allows multiple tuners and HD sky subscription to come through perfectly, with a digiguide data xml import you could swear that you have something that works as well as tivo.

WMC7 is wife friendly, can do hd, has season list management and decent data. It lacks the touch of elegance and class of Tivo, but season 1 tivos on big screens had become a serious embarrassment when compared to a wonderful hd picture through a skyhd box.


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## TCM2007

spitfires said:


> No it isn't. It is "mutually exclusive" in the sense that VM will only source their software from Tivo, and Tivo will supply the software only to VM. That's got nothing to do with the "Tivo service".


Ahem



> Virgin Media will become the exclusive distributor of TiVo services and technology in the United Kingdom.


http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1359073&highlight=


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## spitfires

Ah, well why didn't you say so 


> TiVo will become the exclusive provider of middleware and user interface software for Virgin Media's next generation set top boxes. Virgin Media will become the exclusive distributor of TiVo services and technology in the United Kingdom.


Well that's it then... we are royally scr*w*d. There is *no way* Virgin will take on Tivo customers on a box they know nothing about, have never sold and brings them no revenue. Quite apart from having different EPG suppliers, etc, etc.

Mind you, it does say "_distributor_" of Tivo services - doesn't mean to say they are taking over _management _(i.e. Customer Service). I mean if they were going to do that then they would have done it by now surely rather than leaving it in no-mans land with Sky?

(Yes I'm being picky with words but I've written a few of these type of press releases and, like legal contracts, the _actual _word used is important - not the word you _think _they mean  )


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## dot2dot

I'm interested to hear from tivo on this matter.

as others have said... and we know

tivo sold a few thousand fine machines in the uk.
tivo left uk
support passed to sky
tivo waive 10pcm fee
tivo signed up with virg (exclusive)
virgin sell and support new boxes.

that leaves a few customers with potentially no support - how this is managed could prove to be disaster for tivo if they fail to pull their wee finger out and simply state via message what the score is going to be.

perhaps I'm speaking out of turn and expect too much... given we , cough , rarely have problems with said boxes.

but - alas responsibility is ...responsibility @ the end of the day.


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## Pete77

My view is that we still have service from Tivo for our S1 machines so why rock the boat.

Those of you who demand some kind of positive statement from Tivo that Tivo S1 service will continue forever are just putting Tivo in an awkward position where they might have to set a termination date.


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## PhilG

Pete77 said:


> My view is that we still have service from Tivo for our S1 machines so why rock the boat.
> 
> Those of you who demand some kind of positive statement from Tivo that Tivo S1 service will continue forever are just putting Tivo in an awkward position where they might have to set a termination date.


and I know I will regret saying this but in 10 years I have NEVER needed to call anyones support line for Tivo! 

That's pretty good considering the technology was ground breaking when it was new


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## TCM2007

dot2dot said:


> I'm interested to hear from tivo on this matter.
> 
> as others have said... and we know
> 
> tivo sold a few thousand fine machines in the uk.
> tivo left uk
> support passed to sky
> tivo waive 10pcm fee
> tivo signed up with virg (exclusive)
> virgin sell and support new boxes.
> 
> that leaves a few customers with potentially no support - how this is managed could prove to be disaster for tivo if they fail to pull their wee finger out and simply state via message what the score is going to be.
> 
> perhaps I'm speaking out of turn and expect too much... given we , cough , rarely have problems with said boxes.
> 
> but - alas responsibility is ...responsibility @ the end of the day.


In terms of support nothing has changed since TiVo launched 10 years ago. As things stand, nothing is due to change. Why do you want a statement from TiVo?

Some have assumed that support will switch to Virgin. Nothing TiVo or Virgin have said supports that idea.


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## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> My view is that we still have service from Tivo for our S1 machines so why rock the boat.


That's a fair point, but it's easier to keep a service going that to try and reinstate one should Tivo (please noooooo) stop the service for any reason.

We need Tivo to understand our concerns and wishes.

They might not have been active on the UK forum for a while but our friends at Tivo Inc. are still around and might read this forum to gauge reaction before deciding what to do next.

For that reason if no other *we need people to speak up and support the continuance of the service!*


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Some have assumed that support will switch to Virgin. Nothing TiVo or Virgin have said supports that idea.


Uncertainty has however been created by the decision to only temporarily suspend collection for the time being of the payments of £10 per month from those without Lifetime subs.

Something must lie behind that decision but so far it has not been explained by Tivo.


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## TCM2007

Indeed. Personal guess: if they run it completely free for a year(?) then it lessens any comeback when they switch it off. ("We kept if going for 10 years after the device came off sale, and we even gave the service to them free at our own expense.")


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> "We kept if going for 10 years after the device came off sale, and we even gave the service to them free at our own expense."


Well that would mean service continuing at least until about April 2013 if they want to hit the 10 years on from last sales of the units in the shops mark. I bought mine in December 2002 from Currys but they were available for at least another quarter if not another 6 months after that as brand new products in some shops.

Personally I think guide data service will continue indefinitely as long as Tivo remains in its present form (i.e. is not take over and restructured) and as long as they cannot offer a replacement product for satellite and DTT viewers.

I suspect something has changed in their relationship with Sky (i.e. no new formal customer support contract signed when the last one expired) and that is why Sky are no longer willing to go on taking monthly payments for them. For the number of people still paying it was probably actually cheaper not to commit to a new customer support contract with Sky and lose the monthly revenue. As so few people actually ring the phone line for support these days Sky are probably prepared to still leave that in place on a goodwill basis to avoid any awkward questions being asked. However it would have been more professional to revert any remaining support to Aviso in my book.

Guide Data is different as that depends only on the payment of the required ongoing fees to Tribune plus whatever internal staff data reprocessing costs to support a UK S1 guide data set are involved (I suspect its mostly automated at the Tivo end and that most of the manual intervention is actually by Tribune staff). Also that Tribune bill may be hidden in Tivo's much larger payments to Tribune for their US EPG services.

I suspect the 0800 telephone call costs are a lot lower than anyone imagines as very cheap deals can be obtained on these things if large volumes of calls are involved. In any case I expect the 0800 number is probably supplied by Tivo's US comms supplier and the cost of it is again lost there as part of the Freephone cost for dial in calls on the US S1 Tivo units.

Hence the annual customer support contract with Sky was probably the only large headline number still coming to a Tivo accountant's attention.


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## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> Also that Tribune bill may be hidden in Tivo's much larger payments to Tribune for their US EPG services.


The cost of continuing to pay TMS for our EPG data was my main concern, but if as you say they use Tribune for US data then I'm sure either Tribune or Tivo Inc could absorb this in some other bag of beans.


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## Pete77

spitfires said:


> The cost of continuing to pay TMS for our EPG data was my main concern, but if as you say they use Tribune for US data then I'm sure either Tribune or Tivo Inc could absorb this in some other bag of beans.


I'm just speculating that the Sky support contract was the only thing obviously still showing up in the accounts as a direct obvious cost of supporting the old British Tivo S1 product. If Sky also collected the monthly subs revenue and the monthly subs revenue exceeded the cost of the annual Sky customer support contract then it was easier to not renew the Sky support contract. You will note anyone who calls UK Tivo customer support now effectively is given the impression that Sky no longer support the product even though the number has not been formally closed down (but these are only ordinary Sky customer support staff otherwise supporting Sky customers so there is no major cost in answering the very occasional calls, which in any case brings in a revenue stream of a few £ per hour)

Tivo probably left it open ended in terms of those who were still paying £10 per month in case there was a way for Virgin to start collecting the revenue again where the cost of collection was substantially lower than the revenue collected. That has probably yet to be resolved.

Of course assuming Tivo also use Tribune for US Guide Data then someone at Tivo must manage that contract with Tribune and only they will know whether the cost of data from Tribune for the British element of it is a significant number in terms of Tivo's overall operational costs. And that assumes that it is even separated out in their bill in the first place.

I also suspect it was probably a requirement of Virgin's contract with Tivo that Tivo should no longer have any ongoing contractual relationships in the UK with Sky.


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## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> I suspect the 0800 telephone call costs are a lot lower than anyone imagines as very cheap deals can be obtained on these things if large volumes of calls are involved. In any case I expect the 0800 number is probably supplied by Tivo's US comms supplier and the cost of it is again lost there as part of the Freephone cost for dial in calls on the US S1 Tivo units.


US units aren't on 0800 (or the US equivalent); that got changed years ago.


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## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> I'm just speculating that the Sky support contract was the only thing obviously still showing up in the accounts as a direct obvious cost of supporting the old British Tivo S1 product. If Sky also collected the monthly subs revenue and the monthly subs revenue exceeded the cost of the annual Sky customer support contract then it was easier to not renew the Sky support contract. You will note anyone who calls UK Tivo customer support now effectively is given the impression that Sky no longer support the product even though the number has not been formally closed down (but these are only ordinary Sky customer support staff otherwise supporting Sky customers so there is no major cost in answering the very occasional calls, which in any case brings in a revenue stream of a few £ per hour)
> 
> I also suspect it was probably a requirement of Virgin's contract with Tivo that Tivo should no longer have any ongoing contractual relationships in the UK with Sky.


If the Sky support contract is over the phone line would be shut down, and Sky CS would no longer have access to TiVo's computer systems. It would be illegal not to" (Data protection).


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## TCM2007

Just to confuse the issue, fom an old SEC filing:



> We amended our agreements with Thomson Multimedia and BSkyB in order to enable us to issue common stock to reduce or eliminate some of our cash payment obligations to them. As a result of these amendments, in July 2002, we issued 633,072 shares and 379,843 shares to BSkyB and Thomson Multimedia, respectively. Under our agreement with Thomson Multimedia, we can continue to satisfy future cash payment obligations, in part, in shares of common stock.


I wonder if that "eliminated" the cost of the support contract?

Those shares would have been worth around $1.7m at the time! If Sky still has them they'd be worth $6m.


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> If the Sky support contract is over the phone line would be shut down, and Sky CS would no longer have access to TiVo's computer systems. It would be illegal not to" (Data protection).


It has recently been reported on here by several members who have called the Sky run Tivo S1 support line that Sky staff are now claiming that they no longer have any access to Tivo's systems or any means to request the setting up of new accounts on closed account Tivos with Tivo staff at Tivo HQ.

That sounds suspiciously to me like they no longer have a support contract with Tivo.

The recent system message about monthly sub payments now being suspended wasn't sent by Sky but by Tivo.


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## djqster

Pete77 said:


> It has recently been reported on here by several members who have called the Sky run Tivo S1 support line that Sky staff are now claiming that they no longer have any access to Tivo's systems or any means to request the setting up of new accounts on closed account Tivos with Tivo staff at Tivo HQ.


Last time I rang a week or two ago it was business as usual. Except that their happy reassurance that my TiVo was now active didn't actually lead to it becoming active.

Bought a lifetime subbed unit off eBay in the end...


----------



## Pete77

djqster said:


> it was business as usual. Except that their happy reassurance that my TiVo was now active didn't actually lead to it becoming active.


So clearly not business as usual after all but just keeping up a front that it was.

Perhaps Sky are on some temporary short term retainer for a minimal amount of money from Tivo to carry on answering the calls before Tivo finally makes up its mind what to do about UK S1 support.

I expect they still hope to transfer it over to Virgin but don't want to muddy the waters with Virgin at this stage while they are still concentrating on their big Tivo product launch.


----------



## TCM2007

We know that upates from the UK are not going on to the master system. They haven't for ages.

Cant imagine why you'd think Virgin would want anything to do with it. They have no access to TiVo's systems nor do they know anything about S1 units. Getting them to take on CS would be a huge palaver for no benefit to them.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Cant imagine why you'd think Virgin would want anything to do with it. They have no access to TiVo's systems nor do they know anything about S1 units. Getting them to take on CS would be a huge palaver for no benefit to them.


But on the other hand why would Sky be prepared to have any continued association whatsoever with a PVR product now used as a key marketing weapon by their deadliest UK commercial enemy.


----------



## spitfires

Quite. So if neither Virgin nor Sky will do the support, who will?

Are Tivo obliged to even _offer_ support or do they just leave it to the unofficial well-known self-help providers we already have in the UK?


----------



## Pete77

spitfires said:


> Quite. So if neither Virgin nor Sky will do the support, who will?


Tivo direct from Aviso in California I would suggest. This seems by far the easiest and simplest arrangement to set up.

I would suggest that the subject of enquiries covered by support should be restricted to subscription payments and difficulties in downloading the Guide Data or apparent faults in the Guide Data and that questions about how to work or operate a UK S1 Tivo should not be supported at this stage.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> But on the other hand why would Sky be prepared to have any continued association whatsoever with a PVR product now used as a key marketing weapon by their deadliest UK commercial enemy.


Because there is a contract for them to do so, presumably. And it's completely invisible so it's not as if anyone would know.

I doubt you'll nee Virgin leading on "TiVo" with the new box; it's not a name with any UK traction.


----------



## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> ...


Sounds eminently sensible to me. (Both the _who_ and the _what_  )


----------



## spitfires

TCM2007 said:


> Because there is a contract for them to do so, presumably.


When does that run out though?

It was initially for 2 years then extended till 2003, but what happened after that? I can't see either BSkyB or Tivo wanting more than a 2 year at a time extension (...extension...extension...).


----------



## Pete77

spitfires said:


> When does that run out though?


I think it has run out in its original form which is why the current oddball temporary arrangements are in place while Tivo makes up its mind what to do.

I expect Sky charged a sizeable minimum flat fee for having access to their billing and charging systems that was no longer cost effective in relation to the revenue now being collected from Tivo subscribers.


----------



## TCM2007

spitfires said:


> When does that run out though?
> 
> It was initially for 2 years then extended till 2003, but what happened after that? I can't see either BSkyB or Tivo wanting more than a 2 year at a time extension (...extension...extension...).


In 2002 TiVo gave Sky $1.7m in shares in lieu of cash obligations. Presumably the cost of the support contract was one of those "cash obligations". I wonder, thinking about it if the cost of the 0800 number was too.

It would explain a lot about why the service is still going if it was all at zero cash cost!

Now, by 2002 TiVo knew it was pulling out of the UK, so I wonder what length of time that $1.7m was to cover. What would they have reckoned a maximum life to be; 10 years?


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> The recent system message about monthly sub payments now being suspended wasn't sent by Sky but by Tivo.


I thought that was obvious from the start  When has anyone _but_ Tivo sent messages via that system?

(And yes, I still pop in here occsionally )


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Guys..guys..guys. I've been knocking around at a senior level in UK and US companies for years and years and I have seen this all happen before. And it is not good news.

Rule No 1...the bean counters call the shots

Rule No 2...if you are a US company with a teensy-weensy user base in the UK and this customer base isn't making any money, then you don't give a monkey for any 'bad press'

Rule No 3 ..when you decide to pull the plug on something, you send out a legal message telling this user base to read the new agreement. That covers your backside

Rule No 4 .. then you pull the plug after the time is up.

I am pretty hacked off about this as are/will many of you be....I can, however, guarantee that none of you will be quite as upset as my wife! Nor as upset as I will be after I have told her what I think is coming down the wire.

More power to the guy who did all the hardwork on the Digi-link for an alternative source. Downside is that, for her, defeats the sheer elegance of the user interface of TiVo.


----------



## Pete77

A point you should not forget is that Tivo people are undoubtedly reading but not posting in this thread. The sudden appearance of a post from TivoJerry in the VirginMedia Tivo thread in relation to whether the new Virgin Tivo has a remaining disk space available indicator proves that very point. Strangely enough my Tivo S1 has a space indicator hack that I have been running without hassle for many years now. Of course this would be unknown to Carl Waring who has worn his keyboard to a near pulp posting about Tivos over the last few years but who strangely enough never ever took the lid off his own Tivo S1 unit or ever installed a single hack.

So bearing in mind that Tivo people are reading I wish to make it clear that if Tivo S1 service is discontinued without a replacement product from Tivo for customers not living in Virgin Media cabled parts of the UK then I intend to form a group to bring a *CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT* suit against Tivo for the immense emotional distress, trauma, loss, pain suffering etc that I would undoubtedly be caused by being cruelly and unnecessarily deprived of the service which I had been led to believe at point of sale would continue for the Lifetime of the Unit. Since the Units are built like battle ships and are good for about 30 years+ life with suitable occasional replacement of the hard drive consumables (although I have a pair of those - Samsung HA250JC 250 Gb - that have been chuntering away for five and a half years now quite happily) then I think we have a very good case for winning our *CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT* (this is a phrase that bean counters usually pay great attention to) if we are forced to bring one.

I know that Tivo do not want me to have to bring that *CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT* so I am sure that even now they are working with Virgin Media on ways to bring Tivo service to non Tivo cabled areas via the new BT Infinity Fibre To The Cabinet 50Mbps network that will gradually be deployed by BT over the next few years.

As and when Tivo can provide a Virgin Tivo replacement for my Tivo S1 in my own local area then I shall of course be prepared to upgrade to remain loyal to Tivo so long as there is a suitably good deal for loyal long term UK Tivo customers.:up:

So let there be no more defeatist and wholly unAmerican talk (all too typical of some my lilly livered fellow countrymen) of service not being sustained to our trusty Tivo S1 units since I know that Tivo are aware we are a valuable customer group and this is why they are kindly allowing us to go on using our Tivo S1 units until the great day arrives when Virgin Media finds a way to deliver its service to every part of the UK. I have faith in Tivo and Virgin Media. We all need to keep that faith.:up::up::up:


----------



## TCM2007

I assume that was a joke, but if not



Pete77 said:


> I have a pair of those - Samsung HA250JC 250 Gb


Modified TiVo? Breach of contract. Just lost your case!


----------



## PhilG

sad_tivo_man said:


> More power to the guy who did all the hardwork on the Digi-link for an alternative source. Downside is that, for her, defeats the sheer elegance of the user interface of TiVo.


I thought there was the basis of a hack somewhere that could use third party listing information to provide Tivo with programme data?

I know we're not supposed to discuss that here, but if we ARE cut adrift I would hope that would become an UNbanned topic...


----------



## katman

PhilG said:


> I thought there was the basis of a hack somewhere that could use third party listing information to provide Tivo with programme data?
> 
> I know we're not supposed to discuss that here, but if we ARE cut adrift I would hope that would become an UNbanned topic...


It may not become unbanned here if the unthinkable happened but I am pretty certain that there would be somewhere pop up where it would be discussed.


----------



## PhilG

katman said:


> It may not become unbanned here if the unthinkable happened but I am pretty certain that there would be somewhere pop up where it would be discussed.


Fair enough


----------



## TCM2007

The Aussies and IIRC the Canadians figured out how to do it before TiVo was available there.

It's a bit of a procedure, and the SPs don't work as well, but it can be done.

Requires a networked TiVo of course.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Modified TiVo? Breach of contract. Just lost your case!


Not modified but merely maintained as with fitting a replacement tyre or putting new spark plugs in a car. One can fit a tyre or spark plugs of any make as long as they are to the OEM spec. That does not invalidate some of the very long warranties now provided by the car trade.

It came with two IDE hard drives. When the hard drives began to wear out they were replaced with two more IDE Tivo hard drives. If I had fitted SATA hard drives using an IDE to SATA adapater then perhaps you might have a point.

Anyhow we are talking about the Guide data here and the Lifetime aspect of its (the Guide Data's) provision. My Tivo can still receive and work with the Guide data in the original specified format. Hence my Tivo is not modified so far as its ability to retrieve and process the Guide data is concerned.

The Lifetime warranty was as you correctly say not on the hardware. If my power supply fails or my motherboard burns out after the first year's warranty and I expect Tivo to replace it then I will be out of luck as there is no lifetime warranty on the equipment. If on the other hand I obtain an OEM power supply and fit it myself then I am still entitled to receive EPG service.

You are obviously confusing the terms and conditions of the one year hardware warranty with the different terms and conditions of the Lifetime EPG service.



katman said:


> It may not become unbanned here if the unthinkable happened but I am pretty certain that there would be somewhere pop up where it would be discussed.


Perhaps you had in mind the well known Database of Deals?


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> A point you should not forget is that Tivo people are undoubtedly reading but not posting in this thread. The sudden appearance of a post from TivoJerry in the VirginMedia Tivo thread in relation to whether the new Virgin Tivo has a remaining disk space available indicator proves that very point. Strangely enough my Tivo S1 has a space indicator hack that I have been running without hassle for many years now. Of course this would be unknown to Carl Waring who has worn his keyboard to a near pulp posting about Tivos over the last few years but who strangely enough never ever took the lid off his own Tivo S1 unit or ever installed a single hack.


Really? You sure about that? Check out my posting history and you will see it riddled with posts about using and installing a TurboNet Card, Tivoweb, Endpad, Autospace and a load of other hacks as well as a couple or more hard drive upgrades over the years.

*ETA:* As the rest of your post was bordering on the abuse of sarcasm I am unsure as to whether or your your opening salvo wrt me was also not serious. I sure hope it wasn't as you'd look a right idiot it if was


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Not modified but merely maintained as with fitting a replacement tyre or putting new spark plugs in a car. One can fit a tyre or spark plugs of any make as long as they are to the OEM spec. That does not invalidate some of the very long warranties now provided by the car trade.


Nice try Pete, but the agreement is very specific. In the section on lifetime subs:



> if you upgrade your TiVo DVR to increase storage capacity (though such upgrades, if not performed by TiVo or a TiVo-authorized third party, will void the warranty on your TiVo DVR and constitute a breach of this Agreement)


Plus, by installing hacks you are in breach of



> you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify your TiVo DVR


Anyway, is all irrelevant as the clauses



> TiVo may at its discretion and from time to time change, add, or remove features and functionality of the TiVo service or the TiVo DVR without notice.





> TiVo reserves the right to terminate your account and this Agreement for any other reason or no reason if TiVo gives you at least 30 days advance notice of such termination.


are pretty damned clear; they can shut it down whether you are in breach or not.

Don't think you'll find anyone to take on that suit on a no win no fee basis!


----------



## Pete77

These all sound like "unfair contract terms" to me on Tivo's part under UK and EU law so I doubt that any of them are enforceable.


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## TCM2007

Nonsense, they sound like entirely normal and reasonable contract terms. Anyone who provides a service will have the right to stop providing it in their T&C's.

I'm still not clear if you really think you'd have the tiniest case, of if you're just on the wind-up for the hell of it.

But, going along with this daft idea for a moment, even if you won your case, the most any court would award would be your loss caused by the contract being ended. Which given the money you paid has long ago been amortised away to nothing on any kind of standard depreciation of hardware, would be zero.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> even if you won your case, the most any court would award would be your loss caused by the contract being ended. Which given the money you paid has long ago been amortised away to nothing on any kind of standard depreciation of hardware, would be zero.


I'm sure it might be worth Mike's (Tivocentral's) while to bring a case given that the withdrawal of UK Tivo service could at a stroke shut down what I imagine is currently rather a profitable business.

Of course Mike may too busy trying to set up a replacement UK Tivo EPG service that he can sell to us at say £5 per month to have time for such a legal case.


----------



## TCM2007

What an extraordinary perspective.

You set up business based on another persons business and you think that gives you legal rights over how that person runs their business?

Every time I think you couldn't show less understanding of how business and the law works you come back and prove me wrong!


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> What an extraordinary perspective.


It was Tivo and not me who decided to offer Lifetime subscriptions. If they hadn't done so they wouldn't have left themselves potentially open to the possibility of legal action if they are withdrawn.

And you by the way TCM2007 always sound like a stuck record in your views that it is perfectly ok that businesses should be allowed to construct one way contracts with consumers that they can change at any moment in any way they like while the customer's only right is to stop using the service. One might as well do away with long complicated contracts for supply of consumer goods and just have one for all consumer products saying "the company can supply the service in whatever form it wants at any price it wants at any quality it wants and the customer shall just pay up or otherwise stop using the service. The customer's only rights of redress are during the warranty period, after the end of the warranty period they have no rights whatsoever".

I suppose we could also say that "the company's accountants will always arrange a company's balance sheet to look as good as possible no matter how badly and poorly run a company's finances actually are and shall have no moral concern whatsoever other than obtaining their annual audit fee. If the company goes under and the accounts do not give a true portrayal of the actual state of the business the director's old boy club that runs the country will still ensure that the vastly overpaid accountancy partners of the auditing firm in question will walk away scot free but the shareholders will lose all their money".


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## TCM2007

Your view that the meaning of "lifetime" is well known, but incorrect. It is implicit and obvious that it means "so long as the service exists", and the right to end the service for any subscriber is made explicit in the agreement for good measure.

Can companies cease selling a service when they choose to? Of course they can! Provided they give reasonable notice and customers get their money back. Why on earth not?

If TiVo sold you a lifetime sub and cancelled the service six months later, you would have s reasonable claim for &#163;140 or so. Clearly after 7 years you have no such claim.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Your view that the meaning of "lifetime" is well known, but incorrect. It is implicit and obvious that it means "so long as the service exists"


I refer to the dictionary definition of the word, as I am sure any judge in a court room also would when compared with the shoddy TomTom attempt at redefining it.

Can I presume you are one of those loyal company men who also tries to wrongly suggest to your customers that an 0845 number is charged at "local rate".


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## TCM2007

If you think that judges base decisions on dictionaries rather than the law tha would explain some of your odd views on how contracts work.

Lifetime subscription means you pay no more fees for the lifetime of the unit, not that there is an obligation to contine the service foreve so long as one TiVo remainsin working order.


----------



## youddiph

Didnt virgin announce they would be launching an iptv network over adsl in 2010? Surely they could use this infrastructure to carry TiVo? I'd pay for that!


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## mikerr

youddiph said:


> Didnt virgin announce they would be launching an iptv network over adsl in 2010? Surely they could use this infrastructure to carry TiVo? I'd pay for that!


They trialled it a while back:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/08/vm_cornwall/

not to be confused with recent news covering the new Cisco IP kit which is just internal to the cable network.

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=181664&site=cdn&

They're investing in IPTV kit for their own on-demand TV over cable.


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## TCM2007

Doesnt TiVo (or any PVR) become irrelevant when you have IPTV? Making a local copy of a streamed programme makes little sense if you can just watch it direct from the server on demand?


----------



## mikerr

It would be if *everything* was available on IPTV/demand (and stayed there).
A lot isn't available on demand, and much of it disappears after a week.

Otherwise we could have this:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8153081#post8153081

In the meantime I'll settle for a new TiVo - if they'd hurry up and release it.


----------



## djqster

TCM2007 said:


> Doesnt TiVo (or any PVR) become irrelevant when you have IPTV? Making a local copy of a streamed programme makes little sense if you can just watch it direct from the server on demand?


Fine if you've got decent broadband, but otherwise you'll want to download to a cached copy in order to get smooth playback.

Bought a Boxee box the other day. It's still not a TiVo replacement just yet...


----------



## TCM2007

I see on a thread in the VM TiVo forum that a new service message is due to go out soon about the new TiVo. I guess it will be do-or-die at that point for the old service.


----------



## davisa

djqster said:


> Fine if you've got decent broadband, but otherwise you'll want to download to a cached copy in order to get smooth playback.
> 
> Bought a Boxee box the other day. It's still not a TiVo replacement just yet...


Even with 'decent' broadband, watch a few HD movies and you'll most likely fall foul of some STM policy (Yes Virgin, I'm talking about you here).


----------



## spitfires

C'mon Tivo Inc. - stop with all the teasers for Virgin; put those of us in non-cabled areas out of our misery!

All the FUD isn't doing anybody any good. Makes Virgin look like they really couldn't give a toss about non-cable customers (errr, true!) but makes Tivo Inc look like they don't care about us either.

Surely Tivo Inc know we can't get the VM package (i.e. they don't believe VM b.s. about suplying V+ over ADSL!) and never will?



> Subject:	TiVo's changing. Here's what you should know.
> From:	The TiVo Team
> Date:	Fri 28th Jan 2011
> Expire:	Fri 4th Feb 2011
> 
> TiVo's hooked up with Virgin Media. To celebrate you can get Virgin Media's top TV package and a brand new TiVo box at a very special price.
> Find out more and be one of the first to get this offer at virginmedia.com/tivoupgrade.


----------



## sad_tivo_man

C'mon...get real!! TiVo Inc probably don't even know we exist now.


----------



## cwaring

davisa said:


> Even with 'decent' broadband, watch a few HD movies and you'll most likely fall foul of some STM policy (Yes Virgin, I'm talking about you here).


Or an AUP or actual CAP limit. It's not _just_ VM you know 


spitfires said:


> Surely Tivo Inc know we can't get the VM package ...


Erm... how, exactly?


----------



## spitfires

Whadyamean? I said "can*'t*" - as in: those of us without cable can't get it.


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## cwaring

How do they know you can't? They know who _might_ still own a S1 unit; assuming their "users list" is up-to-date. (I'm still probably on it and I haven't used mine in over six months!). They have no idea who is in a VM-cabled area and who isn't. VM will only know you have a S1 Tivo if you have explicitly told them via Roy's site or this new site.

Tivo are working exclusively with VM. Tivo is a TV product. VM TV is only available in cable areas. QED 

Sorry if I'm mis-understanding your point


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Spitfires is making pragmatic point. There is a customer base of existing S1 users who regularly dial-up. I agree that none of the vendors will know whether any of these users can access cable and so use the new Virgin TiVo box. Probably some of these users don't even know..especially if they have not bothered to check via the Virgin site.


----------



## spitfires

Surely Tivo Inc are not naive enough to believe that _all_ S1 customers _have the option_ to "upgrade" (sic!) to VM?

The point I am trying to make is that surely Tivo Inc know there will be some S1 customers who _cannot_ upgrade to VM (simply because we ain't got no cable) and never will be able to. Not this side of 2050 and probably not even then!

The exact numbers aren't important - there will be _some_. Tivo Inc. should be communicating to them (us!) what is going to happen next month - even if the message is 'so long and thanks for all the fish'.

Are they going to assume that people who _don't_ register on the VM site aren't interested in Tivo any more? 

Tivo Inc need to realise that *some of us aren't registering with Virgin because there is no point in doing so - that doesn't mean we don't want our beloved Tivos any more!!!* :


----------



## Muttley1900

spitfires said:


> Tivo Inc. should be communicating to them (us!) what is going to happen next month - even if the message is 'so long and thanks for all the fish'.:


Why do they need to if there is no change in the existing Tivo service? What do you think is going to happen next month?

So far I have not seen any evidence that Tivo are going to shut up shop and leave it all to VM (least of all by next month). But, if they do decide to shut up shop, then my guess is we will be told about it then.

J.


----------



## Pete77

spitfires said:


> Surely Tivo Inc are not naive enough to believe that _all_ S1 customers _have the option_ to "upgrade" (sic!) to VM?


No of course they aren't. They can easily reconcile all the postcodes for their list of currently active UK Tivo S1 subscribers (i.e. those who downloaded any data on to their S1 Tivo in the last month) with a list of all postcodes currently served by Virgin Media cable and see that there is a yawning gap between the two.



> The point I am trying to make is that surely Tivo Inc know there will be some S1 customers who _cannot_ upgrade to VM (simply because we ain't got no cable) and never will be able to. Not this side of 2050 and probably not even then!


I think you are very wrong on Virgin Media never being available across the UK in the next 40 years. Even with most small rural exchanges will have fibre to the cabinet and 50Mbps speeds within 10 years and BT are also going to be required to share ducts, poles and/or even fibre from the exchange to the cabinet in areas where the exchange is too small for competitors to afford install their own equipment throughout. When that happens Virgin Media will be able to massively extend their service delivery area and it is one of the reasons they are not laying any more of their own cables in new areas because they know that ultimately it will be a waste of money.


----------



## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> Even with most small rural exchanges will have fibre to the cabinet and 50Mbps speeds within 10 years


You've been believing too much of the rhetoric promulgated by BT and OFCOM!

BT's shareholders will never let it happen.


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## Pete77

spitfires said:


> You've been believing too much of the rhetoric promulgated by BT and OFCOM!
> 
> BT's shareholders will never let it happen.


If Virgin didn't believe they were going to be able to get cheaper access to areas with lower population densities then they would still be expanding their network. They aren't doing so because they know that cheaper ways of getting to those homes will soon become available.

If you think that rural exchanges aren't going to get higher speed upgrades within the next 10 years then you are mistaken. It will happen but just some years behind the big town exchanges because eventually the country exchanges will be left so far behind that the pressure to bring them up to scratch will become too great for the government to resist.

And this Conservative government will not believe in giving BT a stranglehold in rural parts of the UK but will want to see other competition brought in.

We have competition in gas and electricity providers even though you only have one actual physical connection to your home that cannot be changed.

See www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/broa...BT-lines-to-deliver-super-fast-broadband.html

and

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e8271750-d243-11df-8fbe-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1CQrzzk85

And I wish you would stop harping on and on about Tivo making an announcement about our UK S1 service because by doing so you only put them under pressure to announce a potential termination date. Its far better to let things drift on as they currently are flying below the high level management radar with no bean counters at Tivo actively reviewing the situation.


----------



## sad_tivo_man

All this talk about whether or not fast broadband is going to be rolled out is irrelevant for the moment since it isn't going to happen anytime soon to make any sort of difference to those of us without it.


----------



## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> And I wish you would stop harping on and on about Tivo making an announcement [...] Its far better to let things drift on as they currently are


Oh yeah - that'll surely work... bury your head in the sand and wait for the good news that will surely then happen.

You must be one of those people who never complains in restaurants but just grumbles about it all the way home (when it's too late to do anything about it).

The bean counters have already 'done the math' and given their view - we need to convince Senior Management that there _is_ a loyal following for S1 in the UK and persuade them to override the bean counters. If you do nothing, then the bean counters _will_ win.


----------



## Pete77

sad_tivo_man said:


> All this talk about whether or not fast broadband is going to be rolled out is irrelevant for the moment since it isn't going to happen anytime soon to make any sort of difference to those of us without it.


Actually I happen to know that BT Infinity 50Mbps Fibre To The Cabinet broadband will be installed in my local village exchange that currently has no LLU offerings and only has 1900 lines by January next year.

But then that is because we were one of a very small number of exchanges to top the charts in a competition that BT was running to get the highest possible percentage of lines on your exchange registered as wanting this service on their website by a certain date. You may be right that in most other rural village areas that higher speed broadband is still a number of years away.


----------



## Pete77

spitfires said:


> You must be one of those people who never complains in restaurants but just grumbles about it all the way home (when it's too late to do anything about it).


Wrong. I'm one of the first to complain loudest and longest about bad service in a restaurant.

But there is no point in complaining loudly about something that Tivo are clearly unable to do anything about at the present time. They have outsourced their product in the UK to Virgin and given them an exclusive deal. Therefore our only hope is that if Tivo proves to be a big hit for Virgin they will then launch a Freeview box that can also download Virgin media video on demand content over a few hours (since it won't be able to live stream it on a typical non LLU ADSL1 only exchange) that you have to pay to download whilst also being able to access the BBC IPlayer, 4OD etc as well on the same box.

But the place to make such suggestions would be to the senior management of Virgin Media UK (who already appeared to have listened once to our campaign that they needed a better operating system for their boxes) and not to Tivo Inc, who will only supply whatever their customer wants them to supply. Complaining loudly to Tivo Inc about the uncertainty regarding the future of our S1 Tivos is only likely to hasten their demise in my opinion.


----------



## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> But then that is because we were one of a very small number of exchanges to top the charts in a competition that BT was running to get the highest possible percentage of lines on your exchange registered as wanting this service on their website by a certain date. You may be right that in most other rural village areas that higher speed broadband is still a number of years away.


yes the small print stated that at least 1,000 customers had to register for the village to qualify for the draw - how many villages don't have 1,000 houses let alone 1,000 people who will want Pay On-Demand TV?

For "most other" read "90%" of other rural villages.



Pete77 said:


> But there is no point in complaining loudly about something that Tivo are clearly unable to do anything about at the present time. They have outsourced their product in the UK to Virgin and given them an exclusive deal.


No you are misreading the deal - the Virgin tie-up has nothing to do with the existing Tivo customer base. (Which is why VM will call outbound to persuade you to sign up to _their_ TV deal).

The exclusive deal is for _new sales_ - it has nothing to do with the existing Tivo Inc customers and in no way prevents Tivo Inc from looking after S1 customers.


----------



## Pete77

spitfires said:


> No you are misreading the deal - the Virgin tie-up has nothing to do with the existing Tivo customer base. (Which is why VM will call outbound to persuade you to sign up to _their_ TV deal).
> 
> The exclusive deal is for _new sales_ - it has nothing to do with the existing Tivo Inc customers and in no way prevents Tivo Inc from looking after S1 customers.


But the remaining UK S1 customer base of no more than 10,000 units and perhaps only 7,000 units is not regarded as being a cost effective proposition for the launch of a bespoke new piece of hardware by Tivo.

Hence they allow the customer base to continue to wither away to a level and to a length of time following the last sales of UK S1 units where they feel they can probably eventually justify closure of UK S1 EPG service.

We have had the discussion on here before that the Tivo revenue model does not appear to be compatible with the Freeview or Freesat services and/or video on demand free services like the BBC Iplayer and Channel 4OD.


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Pete77 said:


> .....
> We have had the discussion on here before that the Tivo revenue model does not appear to be compatible with the Freeview or Freesat services and/or video on demand free services like the BBC Iplayer and Channel 4OD.


I do not understand this statement. To receive iPlayer or 4OD requires you to be set-up with good internet broadband and connection to your TV etc....a pretty technically savvy household. True, some of the existing customer base might just be able to or want to go down this route. Equally I think that there are probably many thousands who do not.

It comes down to the cost of licensing the EPG guide from whoever currently supplies it and providing the infrastructure to download it on demand (not rocket science).


----------



## Pete77

sad_tivo_man said:


> I do not understand this statement. To receive iPlayer or 4OD requires you to be set-up with good internet broadband and connection to your TV etc....a pretty technically savvy household


Not if you have a latest generation PVR/Video On Demand box with a wireless connection to your router that can pull down the programs that way. There is no technical savvy of any note at all required to get that working for the average customer. OK the old ladies might need their groundson to do it for them but then the old ladies always had a tv installer tune their channels on a new UHF tv.


----------



## sad_tivo_man

'IF'. If you have the latest generation etc etc. And not everyone has a broadband connection still....nor necessarily even a good one...


----------



## Pete77

sad_tivo_man said:


> 'IF'. If you have the latest generation etc etc. And not everyone has a broadband connection still....nor necessarily even a good one...


Anyone without a broadband connection is very unlikely to be a UK Tivo owner. Of course there are people who don't have broadband at home but they are mainly technology illiterate and/or elderly. Such people would not want to use a computer like device such as a Tivo to watch television.

Anyone who won't shell out for broadband definitely won't be willing to pay a monthly sub to Tivo so I fear you have just shot yourself in the foot there.


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Pete77 said:


> Anyone without a broadband connection is very unlikely to be a UK Tivo owner.


Sweeping generalisation. You have no evidence at all to back this statement up. Pure garbage.



Pete77 said:


> Of course there are people who don't have broadband at home but they are mainly technology illiterate and/or elderly.


Another sweeping generalisation. You have no evidence at all to back this statement up.



Pete77 said:


> Such people would not want to use a computer like device such as a Tivo to watch television.


That has to be about the stupidest statement I have read for a long time. The user interface of TiVo is about as uncomputer-like as you can get.



Pete77 said:


> Anyone who won't shell out for broadband definitely won't be willing to pay a monthly sub to Tivo so I fear you have just shot yourself in the foot there.


And again. Hello? hello? We are talking about existing TiVo users so they are already/were quite happy paying their sub.

Clearly you are a techy.....but your viewpoint is rather skewed.


----------



## Pete77

sad_tivo_man said:


> And again. Hello? hello? We are talking about existing TiVo users so they are already/were quite happy paying their sub.


And there aren't anywhere near enough of those to constitute a viable user base, which is why Tivo ceased marketing the original service.

As to your nonsense that someone with no broadband at home is likely to pay out £300 for a new Tivo and £120 year for subs well I will leave to continue to wallow in your own clearly deluded fantasy word. These people buy £9.99 Freeview boxes at Asda or Tesco - face reality.

You are clearly totally unwilling to see any point of view other than that Tivo will re-enter the UK marketplace with a new freesat/freeview capable machine especially for you but sadly it isn't going to happen unless there is a Freeview and video on demand spinoff of the Virgin cable Tivo.

I see little point in continuing the debate with someone who is so clearly determined to live up to their forum name although strangley your views in your last couple of posts almost completely contradict those you expressed back in post #59 of this thread when you declared our cause to be hopeless. From your last couple of posts I also do not detect at all the views of someone who has been kicking around at senior level in large UK companies but only those of a Grumpy Old Man. Has your Tivocommunity account by any chance been hacked.


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> Anyone without a broadband connection is very unlikely to be a UK Tivo owner.


I honestly don't remember which I got first; my Broadband (from Telewest) or my Tivo. I do have a sneaky feeling it was the former though


----------



## martink0646

Oh Pete, where do I start



Pete77 said:


> I think you are very wrong on Virgin Media never being available across the UK in the next 40 years. Even with most small rural exchanges will have fibre to the cabinet and 50Mbps speeds within 10 years


BT will roll out fibre to major towns....thats it. Funnily enough it will mirror where Virgin have their cable....because thats where the money is & more importantly where business users are who provide the majority of revenue for high speed access. Laying cable is one of THE most expensive things that a company can do. I worked for a company that provided BT with ODF (Optical Distribution Frame) & patching technology equipment for their initial fibre network (21CN) back in 1998/9. The plan then was to roll out all over the UK (& Europe & Asia). What happened to that?

By the time BT (or anyone else for that matter) get round to justifying the spend WiMAX, LTE or 4G (5G, 6G?) will be covering the country hugely more cost effectively than the archaic method of laying cables in trenches.



Pete77 said:


> BT are also going to be required to share ducts, poles and/or even fibre from the exchange to the cabinet in areas where the exchange is too small for competitors to afford install their own equipment throughout.


I think your belief in the power of our regulators, specifically OFCOM, is quaint & quite touching. BT have been nagged for years about sharing due to the legacy monopoly issue, they have always dragged their heels & it will not fly for much longer. BT will NEVER share fibre they have laid new. Competitor access is about access to the exchanges (the equipment) & the legacy cable i.e. copper cable that was laid whilst BT (the GPO) was a monopoly. There is no requirement for them to invest staggering amounts of money in laying fibre then give FREE access to competitors. 10 years ago fibre cost £1m a mile to lay. Thats not to break it out to homes, just to lay!!!!



Pete77 said:


> When that happens Virgin Media will be able to massively extend their service delivery area and it is one of the reasons they are not laying any more of their own cables in new areas because they know that ultimately it will be a waste of money.


The reason they are not laying cable is that it is too expensive. Don't forget, Virgin is the pheonix from the ashes of NTL/Telewest who very nearly went under and probably still do not make a profit.

Martin


----------



## cwaring

martink0646 said:


> ... and probably still do not make a profit.


I think they _are_ making money but I do seem to remember reading that they are still something like £5bn in the red. Though if I also remember correctly, they do hope to be debt-free within the next few years. 2015 rings a bell. Might be the wrong one though 

The exact figures are probably in their last Quarterly results  but I can never de-cypher them


----------



## martink0646

Pete77 said:


> If Virgin didn't believe they were going to be able to get cheaper access to areas with lower population densities then they would still be expanding their network. They aren't doing so because they know that cheaper ways of getting to those homes will soon become available.


They are not doing so because of cost, plain & simple!



Pete77 said:


> We have competition in gas and electricity providers even though you only have one actual physical connection to your home that cannot be changed.


You're comparing apples & pears. The only reason telecom services are classed as a utility harps back to the days when they were all govt owned. Water, gas & electricity are essentials for life whereas telecoms aren't.

Martin


----------



## martink0646

Pete77 said:


> Therefore our only hope is that if Tivo proves to be a big hit for Virgin they will then launch a Freeview box that can also download Virgin media video on demand content over a few hours (since it won't be able to live stream it on a typical non LLU ADSL1 only exchange) that you have to pay to download whilst also being able to access the BBC IPlayer, 4OD etc as well on the same box.


That's so far in the future as to be almost Sci-Fi.

Martin


----------



## martink0646

Pete77 said:


> But the remaining UK S1 customer base of no more than 10,000 units and perhaps only 7,000 units is not regarded as being a cost effective proposition for the launch of a bespoke new piece of hardware by Tivo.


Pure speculation!!

Pete, I'm not attacking you personally but you have outdone yourself even by your own high standards of speculation & passing off your opinion as fact.

Martin


----------



## Pete77

martink0646 said:


> Pure speculation!!


Rubbish. No one launches a brand new PVR with a sophisticated EPG if they expect to get only 5,000 customers. 500,000 is a possibility.


----------



## Pete77

martink0646 said:


> That's so far in the future as to be almost Sci-Fi.
> 
> Martin


No it isn't. It could easily make sense for Virgin to launch their own equivalent to BT Vision within the next year or two. The technology is already tried and tested. All that is different is the operating system software with a Tivo variant. This product can work perfectly well with existing broadband speeds.


----------



## martink0646

Pete77 said:


> Rubbish. No one launches a brand new PVR with a sophisticated EPG if they expect to get only 5,000 customers. 500,000 is a possibility.


Pete the speculation I was talking about was you pulling figures for the numbers of S1 units out of your a**e

You said "the remaining UK S1 customer base of no more than 10,000 units and perhaps only 7,000 units".

You've just made those figures up or if I'm being charitable you have 'deduced' them. My point being you haven't got a clue as shown by the wide spread in what you yourself quote!!

Martin


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Pete77 said:


> .....
> 
> As to your nonsense that someone with no broadband at home is likely to pay out £300 for a new Tivo and £120 year for subs well I will leave to continue to wallow in your own clearly deluded fantasy word. These people buy £9.99 Freeview boxes at Asda or Tesco - face reality.


Do you actually understand English or read posts? Please show me in which post I have said this?



Pete77 said:


> You are clearly totally unwilling to see any point of view other than that Tivo will re-enter the UK marketplace with a new freesat/freeview capable machine especially for you but sadly it isn't going to happen unless there is a Freeview and video on demand spinoff of the Virgin cable Tivo.


And again. Where have I said this ?

You seem to be living in your own little fantasy world ...as others have already commented on.


----------



## martink0646

Pete77 said:


> No it isn't. It could easily make sense for Virgin to launch their own equivalent to BT Vision within the next year or two. The technology is already tried and tested. All that is different is the operating system software with a Tivo variant. This product can perfectly well with existing broadband speeds.


Pete, there is a huge differencce between a catch up/OD service which will happily run on a 2mb connection & a box that will not only run the aforementioned services but also run x number of channels over IP. Think about it, having to make available, lets say 50 channels, that anyone can switch to at anytime with minimum cueing (& queueing) up time all over a broadband connection.

The only way it would work is if it was a freeview box but I can't see how that helps Virgin. Maybe it would.

Martin


----------



## Pete77

martink0646 said:


> I think your belief in the power of our regulators, specifically OFCOM, is quaint & quite touching. BT have been nagged for years about sharing due to the legacy monopoly issue, they have always dragged their heels & it will not fly for much longer. BT will NEVER share fibre they have laid new. Competitor access is about access to the exchanges (the equipment) & the legacy cable i.e. copper cable that was laid whilst BT (the GPO) was a monopoly. There is no requirement for them to invest staggering amounts of money in laying fibre then give FREE access to competitors. 10 years ago fibre cost £1m a mile to lay. Thats not to break it out to homes, just to lay!!!!


You ignore the fact that BT will always have a monopoly on the underlying infrastructure in the most rural places and that the government and the voters don't like BT having a monopoly with no competitors.

If you invest in fibre to the cabinet (all but a handful of small exchanges that were conned in to paying themselves for Exchange Activate now have a fibre connection to the BT trunk network) it actually makes sense to maximise the return on that investment by making as much use of it it as possible. It is widely reported that profits on the high prices BT is still allowed to charge at a wholesale level to other providers in the countryside is one of the main saviours of the BT balance sheet. They do nearly as well out of BT Wholesale selling the ADSL access at the exchange to a competitor as if the ADSL customer connection is sold by BT Retail. The same will be true of Fibre To The Cabinet.

We will never again be in a situation where nearly everyone is a customer of BT Retail so if you do fibre to the cabinet in a rural area you need as much use of it as possible. Therefore BT selling access to the fibre to others at a wholesale level makes perfect sense. The same Market 1, 2 and 3 concept as for ADSL at the exchange will clearly also be applied to prices that can be charged by BT on different exchanges for Fibre To The Cabinet.

As to your contention that telecoms is not a service required to sustain basic living and so on your contention might have been plausible in the 1970s but it definitely isn't in the 2010s and you will definitely be laughed at as mad by the early 2020s. The current teenage generation will regard not having access to high speed data as something akin to a living death in a few years time. It will therefore not be socially acceptable for that to happen.

You quote big numbers for telecoms infrastructure rollout but its all peanuts compared to the long term benefits and what we tip down the drain in Afghanistan and also to a large extent in the schools and the NHS. As to your contention that WiMax or 4G will make cable unnecessary experience shows that wireless connections are just not reliable for sustained high speed data download by a lot of people in one area and you soon run out of transmission bandwidth. As to WiMax do me a favour as that has been mentioned as about to change the landscape since about 2003 but has never made any progress either because it has been sabotaged by commercial interests in the mobile phone industry or because it isn't technologically viable if there are a large number of connections in one area all running at the same time. It certainly won't be viable if everyone wants to stream IPTV over it whereas that will be possible via cabled fibre (and no doubt in due course many people will willingly pay the £1,000 or so to run a fibre cable from the cabinet to their own home).


----------



## martink0646

cwaring said:


> I think they _are_ making money but I do seem to remember reading that they are still something like £5bn in the red. Though if I also remember correctly, they do hope to be debt-free within the next few years. 2015 rings a bell. Might be the wrong one though
> 
> The exact figures are probably in their last Quarterly results  but I can never de-cypher them


Hi Carl,

You are right, they are £5.76bn in the red. On the plus side they actually made a profit in that qtr, £27.6m on t/o of £978.4m although that included income tax benefit of £17.7m & it includes (I think) £105m from the sale of VMTV which is a one off event. Realistically it's a £95m loss compared to the corresponding qtr of 2009 when they lost £63m.

For me the interesting thing is how tiny their non cable revenues are, just £20.1m & the ARPU which is up to £46. TiVo's gonna push that higher!!

Martin


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Pete77 said:


> ........ (and no doubt in due course *many people will willingly pay the £1,000 *or so to run a fibre cable from the cabinet to their own home).


----------



## Pete77

They may not pay &#163;1,000 up front for fibre to the home but will probably have to sign a 5 year tv and telecoms package contract with big penalties for early termination. It comes to the same thing but what they are paying is just disguised in the latter model as fortunately for BT, Sky and Virgin many members of the UK population seem to have serious difficulties in multiplying by 12, 18 or 60 etc.


----------



## martink0646

Pete77 said:


> You ignore the fact that BT will always have a monopoly on the underlying infrastructure in the most rural places and that the government and the voters don't like BT having a monopoly with no competitors.
> 
> If you invest in fibre to the cabinet (all but a handful of small exchanges that were conned in to paying themselves for Exchange Activate now have a fibre connection to the BT trunk network) it actually makes sense to maximise the return on that investment by making as much use of it it as possible. It is widely reported that profits on the high prices BT is still allowed to charge at a wholesale level to other providers in the countryside is one of the main saviours of the BT balance sheet. They do nearly as well out of BT Wholesale selling the ADSL access at the exchange to a competitor as if the ADSL customer connection is sold by BT Retail. The same will be true of Fibre To The Cabinet.
> 
> We will never again be in a situation where nearly everyone is a customer of BT Retail so if you do fibre to the cabinet in a rural area you need as much use of it as possible. Therefore BT selling access to the fibre to others at a wholesale level makes perfect sense. The same Market 1, 2 and 3 concept as for ADSL at the exchange will clearly also be applied to prices that can be charged by BT on different exchanges for Fibre To The Cabinet.
> 
> As to your contention that telecoms is not a service required to sustain basic living and so on your contention might have been plausible in the 1970s but it definitely isn't in the 2010s and you will definitely be laughed at as mad by the early 2020s. The current teenage generation will regard not having access to high speed data as something akin to a living death in a few years time. It will therefore not be socially acceptable for that to happen.
> 
> You quote big numbers for telecoms infrastructure rollout but its all peanuts compared to the long term benefits and what we tip down the drain in Afghanistan and also to a large extent in the schools and the NHS. As to your contention that WiMax or 4G will make cable unnecessary experience shows that wireless connections are just not reliable for sustained high speed data download by a lot of people in one area and you soon run out of transmission bandwidth. As to WiMax do me a favour as that has been mentioned as about to change the landscape since about 2003 but has never made any progress either because it has been sabotaged by commercial interests in the mobile phone industry or because it isn't technologically viable if there are a large number of connections in one area all running at the same time. It certainly won't be viable if everyone wants to stream IPTV over it whereas that will be possible via cabled fibre (and no doubt in due course many people will willingly pay the £1,000 or so to run a fibre cable from the cabinet to their own home).


Pete,

You have contradicted yourself so many times in this single post it beggars belief, as well as agreeing with my earlier post whilst trying to make a cohesive argument. I am looking forward to replying to this but as I need to leave work now I will wait to reply to give your response the thought it deserves.

Martin


----------



## TCM2007

Wow, turn my back for a minute and Pete gets into a huge argument. That's my job guys!

Trouble is, with a number of specific exceptions, I think I tend to agree with Pete.

I think I'll go fo a lie down now....


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Pete77 said:


> They may not pay £1,000 up front for fibre to the home but will probably have to sign a 5 year tv and telecoms package contract with big penalties for early termination. .....


That is possible but not what you originally said. Careless English - not good.

Still waiting for the reference to the posts that you think I made.


----------



## Pete77

sad_tivo_man said:


> That is possible but not what you originally said. Careless English - not good.
> 
> Still waiting for the reference to the posts that you think I made.


This is a quite pointless argument.

Reality is that the Tivo product model is reliant on high cost EPG data and more expensive hardware than basic PVRs.

However the average FTA customer is very subscription adverse hence why they don't subscribe to Sky (even though they may well invest in a one off widescreen telly and Freeview or Freesat - the BBC/ITV variety of Freesat - PVR with no further ongoing running cost) so the idea of paying a subscription to Tivo is anathema to them.

Whilst to us technically sophisticated types the advantages of a Tivo are obvious to Mr and Mrs Average its just another sort of high tech video recorder that can store more and navigate the programs more quickly than 3 hour tapes.

If you are going to sell something expensive marketing and branding are very important and as Sky and Virgin Media have already established that branding it is very hard for Tivo to break in without their support as they discovered previously. Therefore regardless of what you and I want to happen with a new standalone UK Tivo that works with cable, satellite and DTT it ain's going to happen because Tivo doesn't it believe it will work financially and they call all the shots on who they licence their software to and/or whether they build any of their own machines in conjunction with a UK hardware partner.

You acknowledged all those issues in your original post in this thread on this subject but now seem to be playing devil's advocate just for the sake of it.

Since you originally claimed to be such a realist about how large companies dealt with declining product sales you can surely see that Tivo isn't going to take the risk of re-entering the UK with their own equipment and marketing operation and in so doing queer the pitch for Virgin, especially when they almost certainly have a contractual agreement with Virgin that prevents them from doing so for the next several years.


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> Whilst to us technically sophisticated types the advantages of a Tivo are obvious to Mr and Mrs Average its just another sort of high tech video recorder that can store more and navigate the programs more quickly than 3 hour tapes.


Only until it's actually _explained_ to them. Not sure if the rest of my family knew what it was all about when I bought one, but both my parents _and_ brother eventually got one. I think my brother still uses his


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> Only until it's actually _explained_ to them. Not sure if the rest of my family knew what it was all about when I bought one, but both my parents _and_ brother eventually got one. I think my brother still uses his


So that means that to establish the product they needed to do a deal with a company like Sky or Virgin that could afford to suport the no charge for the box at point of install because its cost is paid for out of the large subs that then come in model. The average dumb Brit just thinks its a DVD or video recorder so he doesn't think he needs to pay more than £100 for one these days.

Only in a market where a company like Sky is not so dominant can Tivo hope to establish itself at a low cost because to go it on its own in the UK it would need massive borrowing power to give away loads of free hardware up front (to compete with the "free" Sky and Virgin PVRs) and then try and recoup the marketing and supply cost over the next year or two. Don't forget how stupid the majority of the public are and that the dumbed down Sky model still wants to send an installer round even if you already have an empty communal satellite point on a shared Sky satellite dish system or if you have an existing satellite dish on the side of the house from the previous owner.

Marketing and fashion accounts for a great deal with electronics products as the sad predilection of people to rush out and buy Ipads clearly shows. Surely we all remember the sad case of the Video 2000 system that failed because it didn't have the marketing behind it that the VCR system had. Same thing with Microsoft's horrible PC operating systems come to that compared to Linux and earlier rival operating system predecessors.

In this world the good guys usually don't win but the guys with lots of commercial muscle and the right business connections tend to more often than not.


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Pete77 said:


> ......regardless of what you and I want to happen with a new standalone UK Tivo that works with cable, satellite and DTT .....


I have never ever said in any of my posts that I want one of these. I am very happy with our S1 TiVo.

I have no idea how much it costs to 'buy' an EPG for subscription sales. Do you?
Even if the current cost is high, if I was the seller of said EPG and faced with the loss of revenue due to an unsupported user base and then someone came along and offered me a little bit of money to carry on using it then I would have thought that that was a good thing.

Apart from the above, I do agree with your sentiments re the great British public. They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. And also sadly the vast majority are pretty thick. Ever see the film Idiocracy? That's such a depressing film but probably an accurate prediction of the future.


----------



## spitfires

And so returning to the original topic...



Pete77 said:


> Hence they allow the customer base to continue to wither away to a level [...] where they feel they can probably eventually justify closure of UK S1 EPG service.


Which you are only expediting by burying your head in the sand and not letting Tivo Inc management know how we feel.

By saying nothing then Tivo Inc can only assume that you are happy for the existing S1 service to close.

--

Mind you it wouldn't surprise me if Tivo Inc were subject to a gagging order from Virgin to prevent them from even suggesting the S1 service will continue thereby stopping some people from signing up to the 3x-the-price VM service.

Nah on second thoughts the number of Tivo "upgrades" is going to be negligible compared to the number of existing V+ upgrades and new VM sales.


----------



## Pete77

sad_tivo_man said:


> And also sadly the vast majority are pretty thick. Ever see the film Idiocracy? That's such a depressing film but probably an accurate prediction of the future.


I didn't find it depressing to watch because it was such a brilliant and witty satire on all that is wrong with modern western "let me have it now" consumerism and the world of reality tv.

However despite being a brilliantly written and acted film (which the Murdoch corporation then usuccessfully tried to bury because its message was too bleakly critical of the operating methods of their own and other multinational corporations - see www.cartoonbrew.com/old-brew/why-did-fox-bury-mike-judges-idiocracy.html) I fear that in Britain it will be a close run thing between Idiocracy and Islamocracy. Indeed I also fear there could end up being a civil war between the two groups in 50 years time because the Idiocrats whilst stupid are not quite as lacking in energy or pugnacious nature as the film suggested.

But Idiocracy does explain why the idiots cannot be relied on to always seek out the best PVR in the market but instead will generally use the one that is most aggressively marketed to them


----------



## hokkers999

Pete77 said:


> So that means that to establish the product they needed to do a deal with a company like Sky or Virgin that could afford to suport the no charge for the box at point of install


Free?? Did you miss the £199 UP FRONT cost of the new Tivo??


----------



## cwaring

^ Sounds like one for the Wishlist; if the product ever actually materialises


----------



## Pete77

hokkers999 said:


> Free?? Did you miss the £199 UP FRONT cost of the new Tivo??


That's a short term early adopter price like with Sky+ or Sky HD. Once they have enough units available in relation to demand they will be giving them away before long provided you agree to sign up for another 12 months or perhaps if you ask to cancel your Virgin tv subscription (on a non Tivo box).


----------



## AENG

sad_tivo_man said:


> There is a customer base of existing S1 users who regularly dial-up..


Yes. I am one of them but since 28 Jan the call-in no. (08081050005) seems to be permanently busied out. What gives?


----------



## AENG

Wrong again! I've just tried it (the 6th attempt or so) using a handset and it's now returning what sound like the expected tones.


----------



## ramtops

However, the fact is that none of us _know_ what's going to happen with S1 Tivos. I now live in the marooned internet land of Kingston-upon-Hull - no cable, no BT, crappy monopolistic broadband which is shaped to buggery. Very hard to stream anything here after 5 p.m., and with a 100Gb limit per month, on demand IP television is a no no here.

I don't subscribe to Sky because I loathe Murdoch and all his works, and to be honest, I find quite enough to watch on Freeview with the addition of a Blockbuster sub.

Having said all that, I wouldn't *want* a new Tivo. Locked down, no hacks, just giving you what Virgin Media let you have. I wonder if you'll be able to even skip the ads.

It's been a great, fantastic run with our Tivo and they will have to prise it from my cold fingers if it doesn't give up the ghost first, or the service doesn't run out. I shall switch to an Elgato Eye TV for the Mac Mini when it does, but - 40 quid a month for television? No thanks.

p.s. I'm old (57) and female, but I can still manage to install a home entertainment system, hack the Tivo, drive it from across a network etc. We're not all decrepit yet


----------



## OzSat

ramtops said:


> p.s. I'm old (57) and female, but I can still manage to install a home entertainment system, hack the Tivo, drive it from across a network etc. We're not all decrepit yet


But do you know the offside rule?


----------



## spitfires

ozsat said:


> But do you know the offside rule?


Uncalled for sir! ............but very very funny!


----------



## cwaring

ramtops said:


> Having said all that, I wouldn't *want* a new Tivo. Locked down, just giving you what Virgin Media let you have. I wonder if you'll be able to even skip the ads.


*Locked down* 
uh? 

*no hacks*
Well, given that most of the best 'hacks' are now available built-in (ie part of the core functionality) being able to hack it isn't really necessary now.

*just giving you what Virgin Media let you have*
Again, huh?  "Don't you just hate Sky/Freeview. You don't get a choice. Only what Sky/Freeview gives you." Makes about as much sense.

*I wonder if you'll be able to even skip the ads* 
I really can't decide if you are you being serious or just bating? _Of course_ you can skip the ads


----------



## TCM2007

Carl, you are stating to get a trifle over- defensive!

There are many popular hacks - TivoWeb, EndPad, Daily Mail - for which there are no equivalents in the new TiVo.

Sky+ has the ability to block FFing through the ads, but it's not turned on. It's entirely possible that current TiVo software also has that ability.


----------



## cwaring

TCM2007 said:


> Carl, you are stating to get a trifle over- defensive!


Not meant that way. Just pointing out the obvious flaws in peoples opinions.



> There are many popular hacks - TivoWeb, EndPad, Daily Mail - for which there are no equivalents in the new TiVo.


Well it can be certainly programmed over the web, which is pretty-much what TW did. I think there is a general "pad if possible" option. I'll give you DM though 



> Sky+ has the ability to block FFing through the ads, but it's not turned on. It's entirely possible that current TiVo software also has that ability.


True. Anything is possible. However, it's not mentioned anywhere that it (Tivo) even has this functionality built-in. But, even assuming it has, it's not turned on so it _will_ skip the ads.


----------



## TCM2007

cwaring said:


> Well it can be certainly programmed over the web, which is pretty-much what TW did. I think there is a general "pad if possible" option. I'll give you DM though
> 
> .


TivoWeb did a lot more than just allowing remote settings of recordings. It was an interface into the TiVo's innards for which many modules we created that were nothing to do with remote recording.

The current iteration of TiVo software does not support EndPad-like sift padding, although with multiple tuners it's less of an issue.


----------



## cwaring

TCM2007 said:


> TivoWeb did a lot more than just allowing remote settings of recordings. It was an interface into the TiVo's innards for which many modules we created that were nothing to do with remote recording.


True enough. I had almost forgotten


----------



## hokkers999

TCM2007 said:


> TivoWeb did a lot more than just allowing remote settings of recordings. It was an interface into the TiVo's innards for which many modules we created that were nothing to do with remote recording.
> 
> The current iteration of TiVo software does not support EndPad-like sift padding, although with multiple tuners it's less of an issue.


Like downloading recordings to the pc for one 

Uploading stuff for another.

Even just running the web server for another.

There's tons of stuff the new LOCKED DOWN unit can't do, so let's not pretend that it is as useful as the 10 year old boxes shall we?

and before anybody bleats on about the following

HD - only 3 million users, and 85% of those are on Sky. Most of us don't give a stuff.

Multiple tuners - that's what the +1 channels and season passes are for, so again most of us don't give a stuff.

"Walled Garden" (highly sanitised & censored pretend internet) - who gives a stuff, that's what your pc is for.

"Other Apps" - facebook et al - without being able to connect up a real keyboard about as much use as a chocolate teapot. Most of us don't give a stuff.

1TB of storage - ho hum, wake me up with news, had this on the old S1 for over a year now.


----------



## spitfires

hokkers999 said:


> "Other Apps" - facebook et al - without being able to connect up a real keyboard about as much use as a chocolate teapot.


Yeah - remember the proper (i.e. non-tivoweb) way of searching for a programme. Y-a-w-n! And accidentally press "left" once too often and you lost the lot and had to start again!

Now, when we get touch-screen tellies... and so can have on-screen keyboards like my poser-phone, then we'll be getting somewhere!


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> Like downloading recordings to the pc for one


Which may well be possible on the new VM model at some point. Plus it was something that I never did. Not useful at all. I watch TV on my TV. In fact, I doubt more than a few real techies on here used that feature at all.



> Uploading stuff for another.


Meh!



> Even just running the web server for another.


If I want to run a web server, I have a PC.



> There's tons of stuff the new LOCKED DOWN unit can't do, so let's not pretend that it is as useful as the 10 year old boxes shall we?


It is _just_ as useful.



> and before anybody bleats on about the following


Ahh... so there _is_ stuff, but you're just going to dismiss it. Who knew?!


----------



## mikerr

hokkers999 said:


> Like downloading recordings to the pc for one
> Uploading stuff for another.


Why bother watching TV on a PC ? 

But Tivo Desktop does what you want, we maybe see that later on (the material on VM site mentions media access key which is used fro tivo desktop...)



> HD
> Multiple tuners
> 
> most of us don't give a stuff.


I think you'll find those are the two of the basic features people want from a new PVR nowadays. 


> "Other Apps" - facebook et al - without being able to connect up a real keyboard .


You can connect a wireless keyboard up to a tivo premiere without issue
- on which this tivo is based.


----------



## katman

spitfires said:


> Now, when we get touch-screen tellies... and so can have on-screen keyboards like my poser-phone, then we'll be getting somewhere!


We will be getting really annoyed that the TV screen is completely covered in finger prints, plus, I dont know about you but my arms arent long enough to touch the screen when I am sitting on the sofa.... thats why the remote control was invented LOL


----------



## hokkers999

mikerr said:


> Why bother watching TV on a PC ?
> 
> But Tivo Desktop does what you want, we maybe see that later on (the material on VM site mentions media access key which is used fro tivo desktop...)
> 
> I think you'll find those are the two of the basic features people want from a new PVR nowadays.
> 
> You can connect a wireless keyboard up to a tivo premiere without issue
> - on which this tivo is based.


Tivo desktop would be interesting but nothing has even been hinted at

Multi tuners? Still stand my ground. I don't even personally know *anyone* who watches tv in HD. Let alone need to watch 3 thngs at the same time. Perhaps you have all heard of something called "real life"? You know, going outside and doing things 

This unit is NOT a rebadged premiere, it is brand new hardware designed and built by Cisco. I agree though to get the maximum benefit from it a remote keyboard is needed.

Then again though if you are going to hook up a keyboard to use the "interweb" on it - meaning you can't watch tv at the same time - surely you'd just use the pc wouldn't you?


----------



## TCM2007

hokkers999 said:


> HD - only 3 million users, and 85% of those are on Sky. Most of us don't give a stuff.
> 
> Multiple tuners - that's what the +1 channels and season passes are for, so again most of us don't give a stuff..


People without HD or multiple tuners can be good at persuading themselves that they don't care about not having them. I did for years.

Once you've watched one of the big BBC documentaries in HD, watching it in SD is like having Vaseline smeared on your glasses. With Freeview HD finally rolling out, that number watching broadcast HD is about to explode. If you really don't know anyone with HD TV then statistically you can't have many friends (3m is ~15% of all households).

And the BBC, bless them, don't have +1 channels, and if you rely on the SP you'll get flappy hands lady. Frequently see all three tuners in use on my setup.


----------



## cwaring

mikerr said:


> You can connect a wireless keyboard up to a tivo premiere without issue - on which this tivo is based.


Yep. First thing I'll be trying 


hokkers999 said:


> Let alone need to watch 3 thngs at the same time.


More complete BS from you. I'm sure that no-one can watch more than one thing at a time but it's about being able to _record_ more than one thing at a time.

I do agree that with only one tuner the +1 channels make this not strictly necessary, but it does help on the main channels which don't repeat everything as much.



> Perhaps you have all heard of something called "real life"? You know, going outside and doing things


Which is, of course, nothing to do with anything that is relevant to this thread.



> This unit is NOT a rebadged premiere...


No-one ever said it was.



> ...it is brand new hardware designed and built by Cisco.


Correct. And?


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> And the BBC, bless them, don't have +1 channels


The BBC's management would obviously like to have them. Ofcom won't allow them to on the grounds of excessive market dominance.


----------



## cwaring

Nothing to do with OFCOM. More to do with DCMS who have to give the go-ahead on any new channels; which also have to pass the 'value' test, etc. Which I'm sure +1s would not do


----------



## mikerr

hokkers999 said:


> This unit is NOT a rebadged premiere, it is brand new hardware designed and built by Cisco.


The software matters more than the hardware.
It shares the same codebase as the premiere - which is of course tivo's latest greatest
- so you can expect the exact same features, plus on demand.



> It's based on the main TiVo software code tree," Virgin's digital entertainment executive director Cindy Rose told paidContent:UK during a product demo "We've branched slightly to adapt it to the UK market. The U.S. doesn't have catch-up, Red Button or a watershed - we had to make certain minmal changes to make it relevant for the UK. We also painted it red and corrected the spelling! "Other than that, we've stayed true to the core TiVo product.


http://paidcontent.org/article/419-virgin-media-puts-its-connected-tv-future-in-tivos-hands/


----------



## spitfires

TCM2007 said:


> flappy hands lady


 
Aw I like watching her - I think it's fun just to see how she's going to translate some of the more abstruse dialogue!


----------



## cwaring

spitfires said:


> I think it's fun just to see how she's going to translate some of the more abstruse dialogue!


Like the word 'abstruse' for example?


----------



## ramtops

ozsat said:


> But do you know the offside rule?


Of course. I'm a well-rounded woman (in all senses).


----------



## Benedict

ramtops said:


> I now live in the marooned internet land of Kingston-upon-Hull


Fogive me for asking, but how long has Kingston-upon-Hull been "near Bristol"?


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Here's another thought.

When we first bought our TiVo, it needed to be 'activated'. Was that something done on the box or just a flag set in the back-end system that said we'd paid our subs and were OK to download the data?

If the former, then if our TiVo's were de-activated, are there any known hacks to circumvent this so at least those with the will and technical nous can continue to get their EPG data from elsewhere?


----------



## spitfires

The flag is set in the Tivo server in the USA, so you won't be able to get guide data from there.


----------



## mikerr

"fixup" was the script to remove the nag screens and allow manual recordings,
Not sure if it still works in v255 though.


----------



## TCM2007

It's a test done on each dialup, so any replacement service would be fine.


----------



## ramtops

Benedict said:


> Fogive me for asking, but how long has Kingston-upon-Hull been "near Bristol"?


I *now* live in Hull. I *did* live near Bristol. Where I have Virgin Media cable [sob]. But I still wouldn't be getting a new Tivo - can't afford 40 quid a month.


----------



## sad_tivo_man

I urge ANYONE who is not on the Virgin cable network or who does not have access to it or who does not want it or those who do not want to be forced to buy the new box or any other PVR to lobby TiVo Inc. Their contact details are here

http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/contactus/index.html

And you can either email them (requires setting up a contact account) or go into chat. And especially if you have a Lifetime Subscription.


----------



## spitfires

I second that. The vibe coming from Tivo Towers is that they *will pull the plug* on the S1 service within the next couple of months.

If you do nothing to stop that then you only have yourself to blame.


----------



## Pete77

spitfires said:


> I second that. The vibe coming from Tivo Towers is that they *will pull the plug* on the S1 service within the next couple of months.
> 
> If you do nothing to stop that then you only have yourself to blame.


Where do you allege to have detected that Vibe from?

Since the new Virgin Tivo does not constitute a replacement product in a non Virgin cabled area (that is in 50% or more of the UK's homes) there is no reason to stop service to the S1 Thomson UK Tivo. Also S1 boxes in the USA still receive service even though there is no impediment there to any S1 Tivo customer upgrading to a newer Tivo model and even though some US S1 machines are up to two years older than our oldest Tivos.

Further expansion of the Virgin Media television service will not be under the control of Tivo but under the control of Neil Berkett (the CEO) and the other board directors of Virgin Media. So there would be far point in writing to them saying that people in non Virgin Media cabled areas are desperate to see Virgin Media tv service delivered so they can upgrade their Tivo to the latest Virgin Tivo model.


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Pete77 said:


> ....
> 
> Since the new Virgin Tivo does not constitute a replacement product in a non Virgin cabled area (that is in 50% or more of the UK's homes) there is no reason to stop service to the S1 Thomson UK Tivo.


Well that really depends on the spin that VirginMedia may/may not have put on their cable coverage when pitching for the agreement. If TiVo Inc have been spun a story that most, if not all, existing S1 TiVo's are going to or can upgrade then that will definitely sway the thinking over at TiVo Inc.



Pete77 said:


> Also S1 boxes in the USA still receive service


Are they paying for this service? Reason for asking is that, as you know, we are not at the moment. Now TiVo Inc is not a charity and so if they were intending for the service to continue then why are we not being charged?



Pete77 said:


> Further expansion of the Virgin Media television service will not be under the control of Tivo but under the control of Neil Berkett (the CEO) and the other board directors of Virgin Media. So there would be far point in writing to them saying that people in non Virgin Media cabled areas are desperate to see Virgin Media tv service delivered so they can upgrade their Tivo to the latest Virgin Tivo model.


Definitely not 'desperate'. Very happy with S1 TiVo.


----------



## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> Where do you allege to have detected that Vibe from?


Yes I was waiting for that comment. It seems _everything_ in this forum has to be preceded with "I think..." or "ISTM..." or some other spurious disclaimer. When did people start assuming that every- oops I mean _any-_thing written on an interweb forum had any basis in fact?!  Can't we just have personal opinions any more? Does every personal opinion have to be justified, dissected, destroyed?

Boy I _am_ in rant mode today... must be the high baro pressure. Must lie down for a bit.



Pete77 said:


> So there would be far point in writing to them saying that people in non Virgin Media cabled areas are desperate to see Virgin Media tv service delivered so they can upgrade their Tivo to the latest Virgin Tivo model.


*NO WE ARE NOT*. Even if Virgin cable was available in my village (and it _never_ will be) I am not "desperate to see it" - I effin well don't want it.

I _want_ Tivo, *not* Virgin Media!!!!!!!


----------



## cwaring

spitfires said:


> Yes I was waiting for that comment. It seems _everything_ in this forum has to be preceded with "I think..." or "ISTM..." or some other spurious disclaimer. When did people start assuming that every- oops I mean _any-_thing written on an interweb forum had any basis in fact?!  Can't we just have personal opinions any more? Does every personal opinion have to be justified, dissected, destroyed?


I assume that your opinion was made using some sort of deductive reasoning and/or after reading/hearing something which helped you form said opinion.

All Pete was saying is, on what have you based your opinion that "The vibe coming from Tivo Towers is that they will pull the plug on the S1 service within the next couple of months."

Opinions can be wrong if they are based on incorrect information.


----------



## spitfires

Actually, opinions can never be "wrong" since they are by definition 'opinions'. They are therefore based on the values and beliefs of the beholder.

Therefore I do not have to justify an opinion since it is merely that. However in order to humour you and to avoid doing any productive work today  ....

Put 2 and 2 together and make 27 (which seems to be par for the course around here  )

Cancelled all the subs in Oct. No reason given. No real reason why they can't continue to take subs for people in non-cable areas. No income for 5 months. Pointedly telling us all to read the Service Agreement. No word at all from Tivo on the future for S1 (Saturday's system message was clearly written by Virgin - it uses their style of prose).

Therefore in my opinion, the vibe that I personally get, in my personal opinion, using no factual information whatsoever (other than the facts heretofore stated), is that I personally think that Tivo will pull the plug. That is my opinion.

If you have an alternative vibe then please feel free to state - _including evidence_ (such as a definitive statement from Tivo Inc) - that they _will_ keep the service running. "Gut feelings" and "I'm sure they won't do that" not acceptable as proofs. Anything else is merely _your_ opinion to which you are of course entitled and which is equally (not more, not less) as valid as mine.


----------



## TCM2007

Only two things have come from "TiVo Towers" - stopping taking cash, and updating the service agreement.

The first one looks odd. Two possible explanations I can think of a) the Virgin contract says only they can sell TiVo service in the UK, so Sky can't carry on taking the cash (is it Sky who the 310 went to?) or b) they are softening up for a closure.

Second one could be administrative tidying, splitting the UK S1 service contract from the US one. or it could eb drawing out attention to the rules so we know that thay have the right to turn off the service when they do.

So you could read it neutral, or you could read it negative - up to you.

Either way I fail to see what good lobbying them would do at this stage. They are keeping the service going at the moment as a freebie. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (or demand more gift horses).


----------



## cwaring

spitfires said:


> If you have an alternative vibe then please feel free to state - _including evidence_ (such as a definitive statement from Tivo Inc) - that they _will_ keep the service running.


Of course there has been no such definitive statement, but that is what I will need before I believe it. I tend to take things at face value and not read things in that aren't there.

I don't get any "vibes" from Tivo about anything. They'll do what they want to do and that's that.


----------



## sad_tivo_man

cwaring said:


> ....
> Yet you wanted us to accept your 'gut feeling' without proof.


No he didn't. He simply voiced his opinion.

TCM2007....we are not asking for more gift horses. We are more than happy to continue to pay the monthly sub.

My OPINION is that I cannot see the point of all the 'extras' on the VM box. And certainly nothing to justify the usurious monthly sub. Don't forget, we are not all bankers or footballers. Some of us have a very limited fixed income.

Everything the VM TiVo seems to offer is already available either with iPlayer or TiVo (OK..maybe it has a second tuner).


----------



## spitfires

cwaring said:


> I don't get any "vibes" from Tivo about anything. They'll do what they want to do and that's that.


True, but do you have an _opinion_ on what Tivo Towers will do?


----------



## Pete77

So thinking like a marketing person for a change it would seem that if you wish to write to Tivo and/or Virgin about the continuation of UK Tivo S1 service and/or the subsequent distribution at a later date by Virgin of Freeview/Virgin Video on demand model of their Tivo in non Virgin cabled areas you should be stressing your long and happy experiences as a Tivo customer and your wish to be able to convey those many happy and positive experiences to any friends or relatives you have who live in Virgin cable land to encourage them to get a Tivo.

You should then mention that you really do want to go on being able to talk about Tivo to your friends in Virgin cable land only in the most positive of lights but you are concerned that you might not be able to do this if those of us who live outside Virgin cable land were left in the lurch without any access to the Tivo service if the Virgin S1 Tivo was discontinued without a replacement being available outside Virgin cable land.

You should therefore emphasise the need to keep the S1 Tivo service going both so that you will then be positively disposed towards a Virgin Tivo model (presumably one with a Freeview tuner) for customers outside Virgin cable land if and when that is eventually released and so that you will be positively disposed towards talking positively about the new Virgin Tivo service to your friends and family in Virgin Cable land.

Those who expect the old Tivo S1 service to go on forever simply because a few non lifetime customers are willing to pay &#163;10 per month are not going to get very far because in reality the number of those &#163;10 per month customers will go and on declining every month as more and more people stop using their Tivo due to wanting to get HD television and/or a box that can watch video on demand services like BBC IPlayer and 4OD. That may not include grumpy old men like sad_tivo_man or spitfires who just demand that everything stays as it is with the Tivo S1 service for their own personal benefit but that is why they are so completely unrepresentative of the Tivo using public at large.


----------



## PhilG

sad_tivo_man said:


> I urge ANYONE who is not on the Virgin cable network or who does not have access to it or who does not want it or those who do not want to be forced to buy the new box or any other PVR to lobby TiVo Inc. Their contact details are here
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/contactus/index.html
> 
> And you can either email them (requires setting up a contact account) or go into chat. And especially if you have a Lifetime Subscription.


Snag is, to set up an account you need a US zipcode AND a MATCHING Tivo serial number

And when I tried chat, it was suggested I talk to Virgin

But I suppose enough of us did it, they might notice us

Oh, and it strikes me that if Tivo do keep an eye on this forum the juvenile bickering I have been reading of late really does NOTHING to help


----------



## spitfires

To grossly misrepresent Carl, although not unfairly in the light of recent replies to my posts...

That's a _fact_ is it - where's your evidence that


Pete77 said:


> [S1] customers will go and on declining every month as more and more people stop using their Tivo due to wanting to get HD television and/or a box that can watch video on demand services like BBC IPlayer and 4OD"


There is none - you just made that up.  Total conjecture.


----------



## spitfires

PhilG said:


> the juvenile bickering I have been reading of late really does NOTHING to help


According to Carl it doesn't matter since 


cwaring said:


> They'll do what they want to do and that's that.


Therefore we shouldn't be so presumptious to think that _anything_ that we say or do will make a difference.

Obviously we should just roll over and wait for our tummy to be tickled, or we get taken to the canal; whichever, we should just do nothing.



Pete77 said:


> grumpy old men like sad_tivo_man or spitfires who just demand that everything stays as it is with the Tivo S1 service for their own personal benefit are so completely unrepresentative of the Tivo using public at large.


So the general Tivo-using-public want the S1 Tivo service to stop do they? Is that right?


----------



## Pete77

spitfires said:


> There is none - you just made that up.  Total conjecture.


Please don't make up false and malicious accusations that you have not properly researched.

It seems to be you who needs to check your facts rather than carrying on with your head so firmly stuck in the sand.

www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/news/a301229/virgins-tivo-platform-the-future-of-tv.html



> *Virgin's TiVo platform: The Future of TV?*
> 
> Catch-Up & On-Demand is presented in pretty much the same was as Virgin's legacy system, including sections for BBC iPlayer, ITV Player and so on, along with a library of films and movies.


www.virginmedia.com/customers/bbc-iplayer.php



> *BBC iPlayer on Virgin TV just got even better!*
> 
> You can now catch up on selected TV series for longer than 7 days. With series catch up, once an episode has been shown on TV you can watch it and up to 13 of the previous episodes again on BBC iPlayer. Some of the series you can catch up right now are: Merlin, Little Dorrit, Top Gear and Spooks. To catch up on these series and loads more:
> 
> Press red on any BBC TV channel and select BBC iPlayer and then Series Catch Up or
> 
> Press Home or On Demand, go to Catch Up TV - any TV series that has series catch up will have all the available shows listed together with the date they were shown on TV.


www.freesat.co.uk/what-you-get/on-demand-tv



> Now you can catch up on the last week of BBC programmes with BBC iPlayer on your TV. Find it at Channel 901 in the new On Demand genre.
> 
> It's easy to get set up - watch our step-by-step video to see how.
> 
> The best of the past week ITV1, ITV2, ITV3 and ITV4, direct to your TV. You can also discover whole series on ITV Player, up to 30 days after the last episode is broadcast.
> 
> ITV Player is coming soon to the On Demand genre.


www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2010/11_november/11/btvision.shtml



> *This is a joint BBC and BT press release Date 11.11.2010*
> 
> Today the BBC and BT announced plans to bring the popular video-on-demand service, BBC iPlayer, to BT Vision.
> 
> *BT Vision will introduce BBC iPlayer over the next five months, in a phased release starting in early December. All BT Vision customers will be able to access the service by April 2011. Once complete, the service can be accessed by selecting BBC iPlayer from BT Vision's programme menu.*
> 
> This will be the full BBC iPlayer package, offering almost all of the TV and radio programmes available online through a simple and intuitive BBC iPlayer-branded application, *eventually replacing the BBC content on BT Vision's existing 50-hour "TV Replay" package, which offers a small selection of BBC TV programmes.*


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Pete77 said:


> .....the Virgin S1 Tivo ......


Point of information. It is not the Virgin S1 TiVo. Nothing to do with Virgin.

Your arguments sound like those of the pro-DAB lobby.

"Look! Wunderbar! You can get all those extra channels".

"But I only listen to Radio 3".

"Yes, but you could listen to all those extra channels".

"But I don't want to. I am quite happy with my FM radio, thank you very much".


----------



## mikerr

Luddite 

We pretty much got everything we hoped for - a return to the UK with a new HD TiVo, 
which is probably slightly better than TiVo's latest greatest US model (if you include on-demand).


----------



## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> Please don't make up false and malicious accusations that you have not properly researched.
> [snip lots of press releases]


Those press releases have nothing to do with your assertion as fact that


> [S1] customers will go and on declining every month as more and more people stop using their Tivo due to wanting to get HD television and/or a box that can watch video on demand services like BBC IPlayer and 4OD"


That's a non sequitur and totally your _opinion_ with no factual backup.

You simply have no evidence for that. Stop expressing opinions as facts.

If you are trying to say that wasn't _your_ opinion but you were merely quoting someone else then you should have done that. But you didn't - you wrote it as though it was (a) _your_ premise, and (b) a fact. It isn't.

Those of us in non-cable areas already have the option for HD with our S1 Tivo. It's called Sky (and/or Freesat). If I want BBC iPlayer I watch it on the computer. To say that I will do away with Tivo simply to get HD and iPlayer is just plain silly. Tivo has nothing to do with it. And even if I got a VM Tivo I couldn't watch iPlayer anyway since _I am not on cable_.

p.s. If you think that accusing someone of 'making something up' is "malicious" you really shouldn't be hanging around interweb forums


----------



## Pete77

mikerr said:


> We pretty much got everything we hoped for - a return to the UK with a new HD TiVo,
> which is probably slightly better than TiVo's latest greatest US model (if you include on-demand).


Is that pretty much everything we hoped for apart from the following apparently seemingly trivial problems to those living in Virgin Tivoland:-

(a) Virgin will not sell or provide the new UK Tivo to those not living in a Virgin cable area.:down::down::down:

(b) Even if they would the boxes do not seem to have been designed to accept DTT/Freeview or Freesat tuners instead of cable tv tuners

(c) Even if (b) could be taken care of a suitable source of Guide Data would need to be found.

Come to think of it aren't those of us in non Virgin cabled areas of the UK in much the same position as the OzTivo brigade were at one stage and shouldn't we therefore proceed with making the new Virgin Tivo equipment work in our areas on the same basis?

Potential problems with this are (a) Virgin rent and do not sell the boxes so where could any boxes to convert to DTT or Freesat use be found and (b) I believe the current generation of box firmware is totally locked down against being hacked?

I will ignore people like sad_tivo_man and spitfires who are clearly just luddites who expect an old form of technology to be maintained forever for just their benefit. I presume that in theory sad_tivo_man would actually still be watching black and white 405 line television if it was still available because he simply refused to keep up with the times. Ditto I presume he will be camping out in the door of Downing St shortly when his area converts to DTT only and the analogue tuner on his television set can no longer be used.


----------



## Pete77

spitfires said:


> Those of us in non-cable areas already have the option for HD with our S1 Tivo. It's called Sky (and/or Freesat). If I want BBC iPlayer I watch it on the computer.


So when all programs are broadcast in HD or upscaled SD why will anyone any longer use their Tivo.

I have never put anyone on my Ignore list in this forum as I haven't found the need up to now. However your petty and belittling form of posting is extremely tiresome and I may soon be tempted to use this function for the first time.


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Pete77 said:


> ....
> I have never put anyone on my Ignore list in this forum as I haven't found the need up to now. However your petty and belittling form of posting is extremely tiresome and I may soon be tempted to use this function for the first time.


You're already on mine. Your postulating is tedious.


----------



## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> [...] apart from the following apparently seemingly trivial problems to those living in Virgin Tivoland:-


Absolutely. In all the excitement, the divide between the haves and the have nots seems to have been forgotten. I suppose that's only natural.


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## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> I have never put anyone on my Ignore list in this forum as I haven't found the need up to now. However your petty and belittling form of posting is extremely tiresome and I may soon be tempted to use this function for the first time.


That is your prerogative - why don't you just do it instead of feeling the need to talk about it?

Is it ok for you to deride me but I can't do the same to you?

Does asking you to justify your opinions upset you? Is it too hard to do?

p.s. just because you're losing....


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## hokkers999

sad_tivo_man said:


> You're already on mine. Your postulating is tedious.


?? still replying though


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## Pete77

spitfires said:


> Does asking you to justify your opinions upset you? Is it too hard to do?


You asked for evidence that there were tv boxes that did video on demand services like the Iplayer without needing to be a computer expert and I provided it but then you say what evidence do I have that Tivo S1 numbers are declining because users are going elsewhere. The evidence is the numerous posts by former Tivo users in this forum to that effect.

Basically your demand for evidence is just a childish trick you regularly use to shoot down any post here you don't like. With your liking for evidence I would also recommend that you do not ever buy any newspapers and only spend your time going along to watch court hearings.


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## Pete77

sad_tivo_man said:


> You're already on mine. Your postulating is tedious.


What a relief. It will save me the trouble of having to add you to my Ignore list.


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## hokkers999

mikerr said:


> Luddite
> 
> We pretty much got everything we hoped for - a return to the UK with a new HD TiVo,
> which is probably slightly better than TiVo's latest greatest US model (if you include on-demand).


That'll be on demand that you aren't allowed to record and only contains a tiny fraction of what was actually broadcast then


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## Pete77

hokkers999 said:


> That'll be on demand that you aren't allowed to record and only contains a tiny fraction of what was actually broadcast then


As its a Tivo with a large hard drive and Suggestions I don't suppose you will need to use On Demand very often though.


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## mikerr

Relying more on on-demand would free up tuners for other stuff.

E.g. On demand always has the last 5 eps of Coronation St(!) stored, 
So there's no point recording it.
That effectively means you have an extra tuner free that you otherwise wouldn't have at 7:30 when that's on.

Unfortunately on current VM boxes it's a bit tedious to repeatedly search OD as it doesn't save your previous searches, that has probably changed with the VM TiVo


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## ramtops

mikerr said:


> Luddite
> 
> We pretty much got everything we hoped for - a return to the UK with a new HD TiVo,
> which is probably slightly better than TiVo's latest greatest US model (if you include on-demand).


Actually, some of hoped for a lot more, such a service that was available all over the UK.


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## Pete77

ramtops said:


> Actually, some of hoped for a lot more, such a service that was available all over the UK.


Quite right ramtops. Especially when Virgin has previously made promises to make their tv services available all over the UK by methods such as IPTV over ADSL broadband but has then failed to deliver on those promises.:down::down::down:

It must be all the more frustrating for you personally having managed to relocate yourself out of a Virgin tv cabled area at just the wrong point in time.

One cannot also help but note that mikerr of Tivoheaven must actually be secretly pleased that those in non Virgin cabled parts of the UK will still have no option but to keep their S1 Tivos in service and hence are still likely to be buying the Tivo S1 upgrading products that he sells at www.tivocentral.co.uk


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## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> That'll be on demand that you aren't allowed to record and only contains a tiny fraction of what was actually broadcast then


It's _on demand_ so why would you even _need_ to record it?  Plus, it has the CU services from all five main broadcasters. All it doesn't have is OD content from those providers who don't offer any sort of 'catch up again' service.



Pete77 said:


> As its a Tivo with a large hard drive and Suggestions I don't suppose you will need to use On Demand very often though.


Indeed. I rarely use the catch-up which, of course, is only a small part of their overall OD service. I use the 'TV Choice' service a lot more than I use the 'catch-up'.


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## TCM2007

Projecting that TiVo S1 use will decline is of course not something you can demonstrate with facts because IT'S IN THE FUTURE!

Is it a reasonable prediction given the age of TiVos, the new TV technology in terms of HD, 3D, streaming, interactive TV with TiVo does not support, not to say simply that modern large TVs make the picture quality of TiVo look a bit sad and TiVos are naturally breaking with age - of course it is.

Put the other way, is it reasonable to assume that S1 use will remain constant, or increase, in the coming years? Of course it isn't.

So I think you're arguing entirely pointlessly.

Tactically, my OPINION is that if you harass TiVo to maintain the service, you make it more likely, by calling it to management attention, that the opposite will happen.

They are clearly not fussed about the revenue or they would still be collecting it; unless there's a contractual reason why they can't. Either way, they either don't want or can't take your money, which makes your negotiating position for demanding maintainance of the service a trifle weak.


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## sad_tivo_man

TCM2007 said:


> Projecting that TiVo S1 use will decline is of course not something you can demonstrate with facts because IT'S IN THE FUTURE!
> 
> Is it a reasonable prediction given the age of TiVos, the new TV technology in terms of HD, 3D, streaming, interactive TV with TiVo does not support, not to say simply that modern large TVs make the picture quality of TiVo look a bit sad and TiVos are naturally breaking with age - of course it is.
> 
> Put the other way, is it reasonable to assume that S1 use will remain constant, or increase, in the coming years? Of course it isn't.
> 
> So I think you're arguing entirely pointlessly.


What weird logic that is. Just because something will decrease in numbers is no reason not to try and prolong a service for as long as possible. Otherwise it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.



TCM2007 said:


> Tactically, my OPINION is that if you harass TiVo to maintain the service, you make it more likely, by calling it to management attention, that the opposite will happen.


That is so naive. Do you really think that TiVo management are not on top of these issues? If we followed your line of reasoning - I hesitate to call it that - then we would all stick our heads in the sand and hope things continue as normal. Then, because, no-one had bothered to say 'hang on...what about non-cabled S1 TiVo users', TiVo management could say 'oh well, no-one is bothered. Let's switch it off'.



TCM2007 said:


> They are clearly not fussed about the revenue or they would still be collecting it; unless there's a contractual reason why they can't.


True and we probably won't know. Can't quite see your point.



TCM2007 said:


> Either way, they either don't want or can't take your money, which makes your negotiating position for demanding maintainance of the service a trifle weak.


How does that work then? This sentence is not logical.


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## TCM2007

sad_tivo_man said:


> What weird logic that is. Just because something will decrease in numbers is no reason not to try and prolong a service for as long as possible. Otherwise it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.


You're missing the point; Pete77 was being criticised for not backing up with facts his proposition that S1 TiVo use was going to decline.



> That is so naive. Do you really think that TiVo management are not on top of these issues? If we followed your line of reasoning - I hesitate to call it that - then we would all stick our heads in the sand and hope things continue as normal. Then, because, no-one had bothered to say 'hang on...what about non-cabled S1 TiVo users', TiVo management could say 'oh well, no-one is bothered. Let's switch it off'.


Your view, mine differs,



> True and we probably won't know. Can't quite see your point.
> 
> How does that work then? This sentence is not logical.


My point was the second sentence, that you split off. seems 100% logical to me; you're talking to a commercial company; if you don't have money on your side you have nothing to argue with.


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## sad_tivo_man

Understand, TCM2007..


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## spitfires

TCM2007 said:


> You're missing the point; Pete77 was being criticised for not backing up with facts his proposition that S1 TiVo use was going to decline.


Of course one can't back it up with facts. That wasn't the point. *I* was being lambasted and derided with personal insults because I didn't have evidence for my _opinions_.

Despite me never stating they were facts nor attempting to pass them off as factual (_vibe_ n. fm. vibration: an instinctive feeling; a characteristic atmosphere). Apparently I alone have to state why I 'feel' something in order that others can then dissect it, refute it, and disparage me further.

It seemed unfair to me that others on this forum are able to state whatever they like _as though it were fact_ (when of course it is not; it is merely one person's opinion) with impunity, and yet *I* have to justify or provide evidence for every opinion that I make.


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> They are clearly not fussed about the revenue or they would still be collecting it; unless there's a contractual reason why they can't. Either way, they either don't want or can't take your money, which makes your negotiating position for demanding maintainance of the service a trifle weak.


Given the date on which collection of the UK S1 subs ceased and the likely anticipated original date for the commercial launch of the Virgin Tivo service I am inclined to think that it was a contractual restriction that prevented Tivo from continuing to take payment for the S1 Tivo service sold through Sky and not through Virgin. Were Virgin to have taken over that task that contractual problem could clearly have been overcome and subs collection continued but I suspect Virgin has declined to do so.

As the remaining costs of the UK S1 service are the Sky call centres costs (probably very small now having been negotiated down with each renewal), the 0800 phone call costs (again probably very small in the great scheme of things) and the Tribune data costs (a larger number but possibly still small compared to the total value of Tivo contracts with Tribune) my view coincides with TCM2007 that we should not push the issue because management at Tivo are probably not actively thinking about it and the total costs of continuing to run the UK service may be obscured from the bean counters by being part of larger US contractual pots with Tribune and with telecoms suppliers.

Also Tivo management in the USA will in my opinion be very unenthusiastic about closing the UK S1 service at this precise point in time since it would cause lots of negative vibes about Tivo to be issued in general in the UK and also in particular by S1 customers in non Virgin cabled areas to potential Virgin Tivo customers.

If on the other hand there is a demand by certain unreasonable people here (which seems to consist solely of sad_tivo_man and spitfires despite the large amount of noise they are making here and the fact that they have historically not been active participants in this forum with only 61 and 134 posts respectively - most of those posts having been made in the last month or so) to preserve the UK S1 Tivo service forever then this may very well achieve the exact opposite of what is sought as accountants do not like to have large unforecastable future commitments on their balance sheet that are not offset by any incoming product revenue.

If Tivo is to be written to at all it should only be to thank them for their unstinting commitment to supporting their UK S1 customer base while they were no longer actively marketing the product in the UK and to tell them how much this has been valued and that as an S1 customer you are looking forward to also one day enjoying the new Virgin Tivo service as and when Virgin finds ways to roll out their cabled service more widely in the UK and/or perhaps supplements their cabled Tivo box with a Freeview and Video On Demand box similar to BT Vision at some later point in Virgin's UK deployment of the Tivo product. This message about a possible non cable Freeview/ADSL version of the product extending Tivo's reach should also be communicated in a positive manner to the senior management of Virgin by those minded to go down this path.


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## martink0646

Pete,

You do make me laugh You have just been lambasting people about the use of facts & bang, you are up to your usual tricks of making a statement with no background whatsoever -



Pete77 said:


> As the remaining costs of the UK S1 service are the Sky call centres costs (probably very small now _*having been negotiated down with each renewal*_)


Martin


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## martink0646

Pete77 said:


> I will ignore people like sad_tivo_man and spitfires who are clearly just luddites who expect an old form of technology to be maintained forever for just their benefit. I presume that in theory sad_tivo_man would actually still be watching black and white 405 line television if it was still available because he simply refused to keep up with the times. Ditto I presume he will be camping out in the door of Downing St shortly when his area converts to DTT only and the analogue tuner on his television set can no longer be used.


Pete,

Another classic!!! This statement coming from a man who for the last 6 or 7 years has been avoiding Widescreen, Flat Screen & HD, prefering to stick to your 27", 4:3, CRT set.

You are funny.

Martin


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## Pete77

martink0646 said:


> Pete,
> 
> You do make me laugh You have just been lambasting people about the use of facts & bang, you are up to your usual tricks of making a statement with no background whatsoever -


Most call centre support contracts are based on the volume of calls being received. By any logical process of deduction the number of those calls will now be tiny compared to 2000 to 2003 as nearly all Tivo owners have had their owners for many years so have few remaining question about how to operate them. The elimination of subscription payments gets rid of the main remaining reason for some customers having to engage with Tivo customer services.

I wonder if those you who accuse other people of making up a statement that they can quite clearly justify through a process of rational deduction perhaps lack the basic common sense that most of the rest of us fortunately seem to possess.


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## Pete77

martink0646 said:


> Another classic!!! This statement coming from a man who for the last 6 or 7 years has been avoiding Widescreen, Flat Screen & HD, prefering to stick to your 27", 4:3, CRT set.


But at least I do not demand that an old technology is maintained forever regardless of the economics of doing so of for my sole benefit as spitfires (perhaps there is a clue in his choice of forum name) and sad_tivo_man do.

I merely caution against the financial ripoff of becoming too early an adopter for new technology of very marginal viewing benefit (as is the case with both 16:9 television and HD or 3D television as the programs you can watch are still just the same as before). I would like to point out I was a day one adopter of DTT in the UK in 1998 because it delivered another 25 or so channels to me at a location where up to that point in time I had only had four and had no option for satellite due to covenants forbidding me from erecting my own dish for my flat.

I was also a very early adopter of DAB and Internet Radio because the extra choice of what I could listen to greatly appealed to me. Minor technological improvements in the format of what I can watch or listen to on existing channels are less important to me if that upgrade is also going to cost a lot of money only to be superseded by a subsequent equally questionable upgrade in transmission format (eg first widescreen, then HD, then 3D all of which are essentially marketing devices for the sale of new televisions rather than significant technological changes).


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## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> It's _on demand_ so why would you even _need_ to record it?  Plus, it has the CU services from all five main broadcasters. All it doesn't have is OD content from those providers who don't offer any sort of 'catch up again' service.


Because on demand is only available for 7 days and then disappears for ever?

Taking your argument to it's logical conclusion, when everything (literally, never not found a show I wanted yet) is available on the internet either as a stream or a torrent...

...why bother with vm tv at all


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## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> But at least I do not demand that an old technology is maintained forever regardless of the economics of doing so of for my sole benefit as spitfires [does].


I have never said any such thing. You are just a liar and a bully.


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## Pete77

spitfires said:


> I have never said any such thing. You are just a liar and a bully.


That is the clear implication of everything you have said about not wanting a new Virgin Tivo and being happy with the old one you have got but when faced with reality you turn round and deny it.


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## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> That is the clear implication of everything you have said about not wanting a new Virgin Tivo and being happy with the old one you have got but when faced with reality you turn round and deny it.


Rubbish. The only thing I've "denied" are your lies.

Here are three facts:

1) I don't want a Virgin Tivo (not that I can have one anyway because as you well know I don't have cable) because I do not wish to pay for a VM TV package. That has nothing to do with the new Tivo box which seems excellent and I'm pleased for people who are lucky enough to get one.

2) I have never said whether either HD or SD is crap or which I prefer (check my posts).

3) I have never demanded that Tivo keep the service running - if you actually _read_ my posts rather than imagining what they might contain you will see that I've said nothing of the sort.

Yes I'm happy with the Tivo I've got - aren't _you_? I will be lost without it but will revert to using Hauppauge if the S1 stops working.

You are a troll and a liar who makes up stories to give you something to do in your otherwise sad and pathetic existence. FOAD.


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## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> Because on demand is only available for 7 days and then disappears for ever?


Until it [well, a lot of it if not all] is repeated again.

If you were *that* desperate to watch it you'd've recorded it when it was shown. Unless, of course, you couldn't because your Tivo only records one channel at one 



> Taking your argument to it's logical conclusion, when everything (literally, never not found a show I wanted yet) is available on the internet either as a stream or a torrent.....why bother with vm tv at all


Because VMTV is legal and I'm willing to bet that the straming and torrenting you refer to aren't.


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## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> But at least I do not demand that an old technology is maintained forever regardless of the economics of doing so of for my sole benefit as spitfires (perhaps there is a clue in his choice of forum name) and sad_tivo_man do.


Hang on a minute, weren't you trying to rustle up a class action lawsuit a minute ago?


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Hang on a minute, weren't you trying to rustle up a class action lawsuit a minute ago?


That was only a joke based on the notion that this is often the only thing that American MBA corporate types ever seem to take any notice of.

However surely you would agree that the posts made by spitfires and sad_tivo_man have been needlessly obsessive, aggressive and personally insulting in a manner that surely does not serve their own original purpose of getting other forum members to support their cause.


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