# Suggestion for Tivo - MRV receiver box?



## Hichhiker (Apr 21, 2002)

I am still running the good old S2 DirecTV SD Tivo's

I've been thinking of moving on to something that supports HD. I loved tivo since the early S1 days, but it really seems that Tivo pretty much is putting itself out of the market. I would like to have full HD access to tivo content in multiple rooms via MRV, but thats not really an option unless I buy a tivo for each room,which is pricey to start with and the monthly costs will be insane. And I do not even need to record that many shows at once. 

All of the competition (DirecTV, Comcast, AT&T) solves this issue simply by allowing their tuner boxes to be MRV clients. Of course Tivo does not have tuner boxes as they are not a cable company, so here is my suggestion - make one. Make a "client" set-top box. No tuner, no recording capabilities, but allow it to play content over the network from other Tivos in the house. Seems like it would be a relatively cheap box with no monthly fees and they will sell like hotcakes. If Roku can build a box they can sell for $99 - I am sure so can Tivo.

What do you think?

-HH


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

All of the so called competition charges alot of money for their MRV boxes. And their DVRs are still crap compared to TiVo.


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## Hichhiker (Apr 21, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> All of the so called competition charges alot of money for their MRV boxes. And their DVRs are still crap compared to TiVo.


Their "alot of money" is not in same league with Tivo's "alot of money" - most charge $5/mos (and some are free) and provide the boxes for free (not to mention their boxes also provide live TV)

And the quality of the DVR service is not the point - if it they provide something that works, where Tivo does not have a viable product at all, does not matter what the quality is.

My point is that this is a simple product to fill a gaping hole in Tivo's product line.

-HH


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Here is an alternative solution until TiVo developes your idea. Assuming of course they do. Either way... this is a solution that will work. Maybe not the most ideal, but it will still work.

1. Transfer all the shows you want to watch in another room to your computer.

2. Convert the .TiVo file to MPG format. Quick and easy to do using one of several programs.

3. Save that on your computers HD, &/or a* DLNA certified NAS system*. These can be had realtively inexpensively. All you need is one unit. Or you can just add more hard drives to your computer and run a "Server" software package as well that comes with Networked Media players.

4. Purchase a "Networked Media Player" (They include the software needed for #3 that can run on a computer.) The WD Media Player Live sells for as little as $99. Their are many other brans on the market as well ranging in price from $79 to $299 as well. This device will play most all "media" type content that is stored on a* DLNA *certified NAS &/or computer running their software.

So there you have it... a device that is in YOUR price range ($99). The only major drawback currently is that you would have to first TRANSFER the show to your computer and convert the .TiVo file to a .MPG, .MKV or other style file first.

TGC
Save it on a computer or even a DLNA certified NAS system.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> All of the so called competition charges alot of money for their MRV boxes. And their DVRs are still crap compared to TiVo.


That would make it a good idea 

For me, the device would have to be a tuner as well so I do not need to rent a box. So it needs a guide, streaming support, and a single tuner.

- Rich


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Hichhiker said:


> Their "alot of money" is not in same league with Tivo's "alot of money" - most charge $5/mos (and some are free) and provide the boxes for free (not to mention their boxes also provide live TV)
> 
> And the quality of the DVR service is not the point - if it they provide something that works, where Tivo does not have a viable product at all, does not matter what the quality is.
> 
> ...


Who provides MRV boxes for $5 a month? It certainly is not Comcast and not FiOS. FiOS is $20 a month. And with Comcast, I only know that their regular DVR is $16 a month around here. If they have an MRV box it will certainly cost more than the regular DVR.

If the product was so simple then everyone would have one and they would be decent boxes. But everyone doesn't have one, and the other DVRs are crap compared to TiVo.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I think he was referring to the basic set top box that is able to see the recordings on the DVR. The whole house DVR is $19.99 on FiOS but the HD STB is $9 though which can stream the recordings. In some markets it is even cheaper and I believe $6 for the HD STB.


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## Hichhiker (Apr 21, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> I think he was referring to the basic set top box that is able to see the recordings on the DVR. The whole house DVR is $19.99 on FiOS but the HD STB is $9 though which can stream the recordings. In some markets it is even cheaper and I believe $6 for the HD STB.


I was. Locally we have AT&T ($7/mos for extra STB) and DirecTV ($5/mos) - (I have no idea what Comcast offers)

And by the way, the other DVRs are a lot less crappy these days. They moved forward, while Tivo's been basically stuck in time. I would still rather have a Tivo, but I can't buy what they don't have and I am not going to waste money buying a bunch of full DVRs just to use them as MRV stations.



TexasGrillChef said:


> ...
> 
> So there you have it... a device that is in YOUR price range ($99). The only major drawback currently is that you would have to first TRANSFER the show to your computer and convert the .TiVo file to a .MPG, .MKV or other style file first.


Its kind of like, "here it is, the only drawback is that it is not here". This is a solution, but not a realistic one. Its a lot of manual work for something that will be of questionable quality and usability and still NOT be a Tivo. Why not just get a cheaper and simpler non-tivo solution? Besides, if your solution is to break the DRM on the Tivo, there are much more efficient ways to do it. (at least there are for SD Tivos)

I was suggesting that Tivo can head this off at the pass. Why not have Tivo make some money by selling essentially off-the-shelf hardware with already existing software as an add-on to the Premier. Think of it as a next-gen to Tivo Basic, or just Tivo Basic minus all recording and plus MRV.

As for not having a tuner - I was thinking it should be a simple box. Tuner pretty much makes it a full on Tivo.

-HH


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Hichhiker said:


> I was. Locally we have AT&T ($7/mos for extra STB) and DirecTV ($5/mos) - (I have no idea what Comcast offers)


Don't forget though I believe DirecTV is going to be charging a monthly fee last I read with a possible one time install fee. This may have changed but last I read it still applied just nothing was finalized.



Hichhiker said:


> I was suggesting that Tivo can head this off at the pass. Why not have Tivo make some money by selling essentially off-the-shelf hardware with already existing software as an add-on to the Premier. Think of it as a next-gen to Tivo Basic, or just Tivo Basic minus all recording and plus MRV.
> 
> As for not having a tuner - I was thinking it should be a simple box. Tuner pretty much makes it a full on Tivo.
> 
> -HH


I think the problem you run into is by the time you get the hardware where you need it and the cost where they make money you might as well buy a TiVo. Also without streaming implemented many people won't see the benefit and there is still no word on TiVo planning to implement streaming.

Now something you might be able to do is have KMTTG strip the TiVo container and then playback the files via a WDTV or Boxee box or some other network video streamer. Of course you are back to the issue without streaming it doesn't help most people.

Windows Media Center faces a similar issue. Everyone keeps asking for extenders which we may see eventually, but the issue is by the time you get everything you need in the box it may cost as much as a 360. At that point you might as well get the 360 though the extender might be quieter and you may lose the DVD drive also. Now as the technology drops in price it may make more sense if they can put out a $100 extender.

Of course Microsoft could solve their issue much easier since they would just have to enable live TV from one Win 7 PC to another which currently you can only do on an extender. This of course would be another issue with the TiVo extender. It would either need a tuner or the ability to stream live tv from the main TiVo unless you just plan on having it in rooms you only want to watch recordings.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

The only problem with using a 360 is power usage. It uses too much. Depeding on the version it can even draw more than my WHS. My WHS with twenty four hard drives draws between 150 and 220 watts. A TiVo Premiere only draws around 23 watts.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I definitely agree. Though with the 360 you are only powering it on when you need to use it which if it isn't your primary viewing location may only be an hour or two a day.


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## Hichhiker (Apr 21, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Don't forget though I believe DirecTV is going to be charging a monthly fee last I read with a possible one time install fee. This may have changed but last I read it still applied just nothing was finalized.


All the better reason to gain foothold in the market before its too late.



innocentfreak said:


> I think the problem you run into is by the time you get the hardware where you need it and the cost where they make money you might as well buy a TiVo. Also without streaming implemented many people won't see the benefit and there is still no word on TiVo planning to implement streaming.


I did not realize Tivo is that behind. But it does not need streaming (would be nice though), just transfer would work too with a small amount of space. 8GB of microsd is under $15 (though is it fast enough?) - and how much space you need to store a few hours worth max? As for the cost, if Roku can build a box for under $99 to do this, why can't Tivo? Its exact same hardware needs - network in, HDMI out.



innocentfreak said:


> Now something you might be able to do is have KMTTG strip the TiVo container and then playback the files via a WDTV or Boxee box or some other network video streamer. Of course you are back to the issue without streaming it doesn't help most people.


Having DTivos for past 9 years, I never played with TTG (there is MRV, but not TTG in DTivos) - but it is nice to see a viable automatable alternatives to Tivo Desktop. That does make things a lot easier, considering I already have XBMC running on all tv's. Of course XBox can't handle HD, but there are a lot of options out there that can - I believe you can hack AppleTV to run XBMC or Boxee (not sure about HD support there though) and I wonder what is the state of hacking the Roku box.

But again, my point in starting this thread was to point out that it would be nice to have a hack-free alternative to all of this and to gage the level of support for it (which so far does not seem like there is much of)



innocentfreak said:


> Windows Media Center faces a similar issue. Everyone keeps asking for extenders which we may see eventually, but the issue is by the time you get everything you need in the box it may cost as much as a 360. At that point you might as well get the 360 though the extender might be quieter and you may lose the DVD drive also. Now as the technology drops in price it may make more sense if they can put out a $100 extender.


Again, Roku box and a number of other boxes coming on their heels seems to indicate that the hardware price is already low enough. Building the technology into DVD/BlueRay players ala Tivo Basic would also work.



innocentfreak said:


> Of course Microsoft could solve their issue much easier since they would just have to enable live TV from one Win 7 PC to another which currently you can only do on an extender. This of course would be another issue with the TiVo extender. It would either need a tuner or the ability to stream live tv from the main TiVo unless you just plan on having it in rooms you only want to watch recordings.


Hehe, I am not a sports fan nor news junkie - so I cannot remember last time I watched live TV. Just watching recorded (or recording, if tivo allows that) content is good enough for me. Through in a unified scheduler for all tivos/extrenders so that you can request a recording from any box, and you have a great home setup. That said, I have streamed live TV from Tivo before (via hacks) - so its not like its rocket since to enable that (its a bit more difficult with HD as the stream bandwidth may exceed the wire bandwidth, but still)

The true solution to my needs is pure HDMI distribution through the house, but its just so expensive at the moment (3-4k for the most basic complete system + wiring upgrade in the house to run the extra cat5's)

-HH


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

That seems pretty high. The transcoders to twisted pair have come down alot in price from a couple of years ago.


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## Hichhiker (Apr 21, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> That seems pretty high. The transcoders to twisted pair have come down alot in price from a couple of years ago.


Yeah, hdmi-cat5 baluns are cheaper these days, but a matrix switch alone is still 2-3k. I suppose I could just distribute a single Tivo and use MRV on it to get contents from the other one, but our current distribution system allows us to watch different things on different TVs, and I would love to keep that :-/


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Hichhiker said:


> Its kind of like, "here it is, the only drawback is that it is not here". This is a solution, but not a realistic one. Its a lot of manual work for something that will be of questionable quality and usability and still NOT be a Tivo. Why not just get a cheaper and simpler non-tivo solution? Besides, if your solution is to break the DRM on the Tivo, there are much more efficient ways to do it. (at least there are for SD Tivos)


You *don't* have to break the DRM. Using Tivo Desktop + 2.8 &/or pyTiVo you can transfer the shows to your computer. No DRM to break or anything. Of coruse you can't transfer the "Copy Protected" shows. But even the "Copy Protected" shows you can't even transfer from TiVo to TiVo either so it's a moot point. Even if you had a MRV only box. The "Copy Protected" shows would not be able to play on that box either. (At least currently).

As far as it being manual. It doesn't have to be. TD+ can AUTOMATICALLY transfer shows as you see fit. You can setup the conversion from .TiVo to .MPG automatically too.

In regards to quality. There is *NO* quality loss. The WD Media Player Live can play content in it's full 1080p/24 or 60fps quality along with DD5.1 audio as well. Many of the others can even play DTS. Something that the TiVo can't currently do either.

I *DON'T* disagree with you that it would be nice for TiVo to have "JUST" an MRV box to watch shows on your TiVo. I would love to have an MRV box.

The problem is, the marketability of a device isn't as good as you think it is. See I would want my MRV box to have dual tuners, & be able to set recordings on the "Mother Ship (TiVO)" that it is viewing from. Keep in mind though. Being it a TiVo device EVEN if it were a MRV box. TiVo would *STILL* want a monthly subscription fee for it. Probably around $5 a month as well.

Here's an idea... set up a poll find out how many people would be willing to buy a MRV box with & without a single/dual tuner & pay $99 for it as well as a $5 subscription per month. I don't beleive that you will find very many people who would be willing to buy a MRV box for $99 and pay $5 a month subscription for it either.



Hichhiker said:


> I was suggesting that Tivo can head this off at the pass. Why not have Tivo make some money by selling essentially off-the-shelf hardware with already existing software as an add-on to the Premier. Think of it as a next-gen to Tivo Basic, or just Tivo Basic minus all recording and plus MRV.
> 
> As for not having a tuner - I was thinking it should be a simple box. Tuner pretty much makes it a full on Tivo.
> 
> -HH


I agree though, once you have a tuner, or even dual tuner it almost makes it a full on TiVo again. Requiring Cable cards & additional fees from your cable company to make the tuners work. The subscription fees from TiVo would also have to be even higher as well.

While you think TiVo shouldn't have a subscription fee for an MRV box. They would. Thats the way TiVo opperates. You may not like it. But they would anyways.

However, without the tuners I *wouldn't* buy an MRV box. I allready have a WD Media Player Live. So I can play Blu-ray rips as well as other content that the TiVO can NOT currently play very well. (Example DTS audio)

I allready have a DLNA NAS device as well. So any content my TiVo's record that I wish to keep I have TD+ automatically transfer to my DLNA NAS device.

A Tunerless, MRV only TiVo would have *LESS* capability than the WD Media Player Live or many of the other stand alone media player devices available on the market.

I DO like your idea. It would be nice for some people. However I honestly don't believe that the "mass market" consumer would spend the money on this device. Not enough people would buy it to make it a profitable device for TiVo.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> The only problem with using a 360 is power usage. It uses too much. Depeding on the version it can even draw more than my WHS. My WHS with twenty four hard drives draws between 150 and 220 watts. A TiVo Premiere only draws around 23 watts.


IF your worried about power consumption. Invest in wind power/solar power generation for your home. Then you don't have to worry about an electric bill.

I would have added wind/solar power to my home. However my HOA won't allow the wind tower to be installed. I could install solar power only, however the area I am in would need both to provide enough power for me & my home.

A 6kw system which is twice the power most homes need only run's about $15k. Lasts for more than 25 years & at least in Texas can pay for itself in as little as 2-3 years depending on your electric usage and what you currently pay for electricity each month.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Just thought of something else...

I have a WD Media player Live, so I will agree there have been times I WISHED that it could stream directly from the TiVo without first having to wait for my computer to download the show to my DLNA NAS device. This if of course required before I can watch the show on my WD media player live.

However let me point out a few other things.

1. TiVo doesn't currently support streaming. When it transfers a show, it copies it to the local system on the hard drive. Thus an MRV only box would still need some type of storage solution. Of at least 50gb. As some shows could be that big. I did a 6hr recording in HD of the olympics and it was 48gb. Not saying that YOU would do that. But it would need that capability for the mass consumer.

2. Many people would want Tuners, if not even dual tuners to get rid of having to have a cable box on that TV as well. Consumers want as few boxes hooked to their TV as possible. So by the time you add the Tuners your back to a full blown TiVo.


Mainly because of reason #1 is why you won't see a TiVo MRV only box. It would be nice if TiVo LICENSED their technology to allow 3rd party media players such as the Boxee, PCH, WD Live players to play directly from a TiVo DVR. Yet again, this would still require TiVo to implement STREAMING.

Currently TiVo doesn't do Streaming & personally I believe it is going to be quite a long time before they ever do. If they ever do.

You can ***** about it all you want. It isn't going to happen anytime soon. I was simply offering a SOLUTION that WOULD work in most instances. I NEVER said it was the BEST solution. Just that it was A solution.

Just curious... What solution are you going to use, since currently they don't have a TiVo MRV only box, and it might be a few years before they do, if they ever do?

TGC


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## Hichhiker (Apr 21, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> You *don't* have to break the DRM. Using Tivo Desktop + 2.8 &/or pyTiVo you can transfer the shows to your computer. No DRM to break or anything. Of coruse you can't transfer the "Copy Protected" shows. But even the "Copy Protected" shows you can't even transfer from TiVo to TiVo either so it's a moot point. Even if you had a MRV only box. The "Copy Protected" shows would not be able to play on that box either. (At least currently).


Interesting. Not having TTG myself (DTivos) my experience with TTG is a bit dated. I know you can get the .tivo file to your PC and play it, but it is still under DRM. As far as I know, re-encoding it to a non-DRM format while pretty easy, is not in any form or shape supported by Tivo and should theoretically be illegal under DMCA. This may have changed, but I doubt it since if Tivo does support un-DRM-ing of their content - then what is the point of having DRM in the first place?



TexasGrillChef said:


> As far as it being manual. It doesn't have to be. TD+ can AUTOMATICALLY transfer shows as you see fit. You can setup the conversion from .TiVo to .MPG automatically too.


I started looking it up and there are in fact some automation processes for using TTG - that makes it a lot more realistic choice than I thought.



TexasGrillChef said:


> In regards to quality. There is *NO* quality loss. The WD Media Player Live can play content in it's full 1080p/24 or 60fps quality along with DD5.1 audio as well. Many of the others can even play DTS. Something that the TiVo can't currently do either.


I was referring to the quality/usability of the interface. I am yet to see a half-way usable UP&P device - most have horrible problems with exact kinds of files they play and ff/rew issues - not to mention some of the most horrific UI's. (My Samsung TV's UP&P client is nearly useless). I do not have much experience with WD Media Player Live - will check it out. That said, given a file on a network share, playback is not really an issue. There are always XBMC/Boxee/etc solutions that work great.



TexasGrillChef said:


> I *DON'T* disagree with you that it would be nice for TiVo to have "JUST" an MRV box to watch shows on your TiVo. I would love to have an MRV box.
> 
> The problem is, the marketability of a device isn't as good as you think it is. See I would want my MRV box to have dual tuners, & be able to set recordings on the "Mother Ship (TiVO)" that it is viewing from. Keep in mind though. Being it a TiVo device EVEN if it were a MRV box. TiVo would *STILL* want a monthly subscription fee for it. Probably around $5 a month as well.


I think the market may be larger than you'd think. But it would be limited to Tivo owners (small market to begin with). I think most people do not realise the potential of something like this - people always get completely amazed at my home setup because I have a simple distribution system that lets me watch either of my Tivos or XBMC on any TV in house. For most people, this is not even in a realm of possibility - but it does not mean they do not want it.

I think tuner is not really the right thing here. If you want a tuner, you can always get a stb from your TV provider - I see no reason to blend the two devices unless you ARE the TV provider - just makes the device more complicated - while not really providing any benefit. But I am totally in sync with you on being able to use it to set recordings. If you can do it using a web browser, there is no reason some software cannot be added to let you do same from the extender.

As for monthly fee, I am afraid you are right, and I would think that would kill this product in its infancy. It would also expose the dirty little lie Tivo kept telling us, in that the reasoning for the monthly fees is so that you get the service such as TVGuide info, etc -- since THEY have to pay for it for you. This device will need no TVGuide data nor any other service as it would be completely driven by contents of the full Tivo's in the household. You dont have to pay monthly fees on DVD players - this is not any different. So charging fees for this would just underscore the fact that Tivo is not selling as much hardware as it needs to survive and is leeching of its subscribers to survive.



TexasGrillChef said:


> Here's an idea... set up a poll find out how many people would be willing to buy a MRV box with & without a single/dual tuner & pay $99 for it as well as a $5 subscription per month. I don't beleive that you will find very many people who would be willing to buy a MRV box for $99 and pay $5 a month subscription for it either.
> 
> I agree though, once you have a tuner, or even dual tuner it almost makes it a full on TiVo again. Requiring Cable cards & additional fees from your cable company to make the tuners work. The subscription fees from TiVo would also have to be even higher as well.
> 
> ...


I like the idea of the poll and I fear you may be right on the results. For one, *I* would not be willing to pay monthly fees of any sort for this to Tivo on general principle. I understand the fees for STB boxes from cable company - but this is different as they are not providing me any content (box WITH a tuner is a bit different, but as you said, it would invariably ALSO incur costs from cable company for the same box and same content)



TexasGrillChef said:


> I DO like your idea. It would be nice for some people. However I honestly don't believe that the "mass market" consumer would spend the money on this device. Not enough people would buy it to make it a profitable device for TiVo.


So the conclusion seems to be that, as it stands, Tivo simply cannot compete in this market. Of course there is a more radical solution to this for Tivo - stick to your core business and let go of some of the control on the periphery. There is no reason why Tivo could not just include a UP&P server so that devices like WD Media Player Live (and many TVs that now come with UP&P clients built in) would just work with it without 20 hoops to jump through. It would not be an ideal solution , but it may put them back on the map as a viable option for people. Mind you, I know this will never happen, but it is unfortunate for consumers AND for Tivo. Right now my real options are to buy two Tivos and invest thousands and thousands in HDMI distribution system, or just buy a truckload of tivos, or get all of this functionality, albeit with not-as-good-but-passable DVR, from someone else for next to nothing. Does not look good for tivo, does it?

-HH


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Moxi sells a 3 room solution like you want for 999$. Look it up.


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## Hichhiker (Apr 21, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Moxi sells a 3 room solution like you want for 999$. Look it up.


Wow, thanks. I have not looked at Moxi, but Moxi Mate looks like exactly what I am looking for. At $299 for the box its a bit pricey, but still cheaper than tivo, and without monthly costs on the DVRs - it'll even out quickly.

The only thing I need to find is some reviews of Moxi interface/usability. What does Tivo have on it?

-HH


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

But remember that you can't transfer any content with the Moxi to a PC like you can with the TiVo.


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## Hichhiker (Apr 21, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> But remember that you can't transfer any content with the Moxi to a PC like you can with the TiVo.


Neither can my current Tivo (at least not legally). Its a nice feature, but I can't find that I miss not having it. I did set up the hacked version - but never use it. And with this setup I really won't need to, would I? One DVR in LR for HD there, one in closet for additional tuners and a bridge to my current SD distribution setup, and then an the "Moxi Mate" (basically the device I described in this thread) in other rooms. Cool thing is that it even supports live TV via "Mate" - not something I expected.

My main concern is the usability. From what I see so far, it seems like its a pretty solid UI. It has 30-sec skip - which is essential, IMHO - and it does all the standard season passes, new only, priorities, and other stuff.

I am guessing "wishlists" and "suggestions" are not as good, but I have no idea and I am not so sure how much I care. Internal drives are not upgradable, but at least they start large and provide eSATA port. Anything else I am missing?

-HH


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Comparing anything to a Directv Tivo though isn't exactly a balanced comparison since it doesn't even have some of the features the series 2 has.

If you go the Premiere/HD route you might be able to transfer depending on your provider since it sounds like you would be dumping Directv for whatever new DVR you choose.

Also Moxi doesn't do OTA if you need it. Suggestions is purely a TiVo feature so you won't find that at all and I don't know if Moxi has a wishlist type feature. Here is the Moxi discussion

While your at it you might as well look at a Windows 7 HTPC with a Ceton tuner, which is supposed to be out May 31st.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Hichhiker said:


> Interesting. Not having TTG myself (DTivos) my experience with TTG is a bit dated. I know you can get the .tivo file to your PC and play it, but it is still under DRM. As far as I know, re-encoding it to a non-DRM format while pretty easy, is not in any form or shape supported by Tivo and should theoretically be illegal under DMCA. This may have changed, but I doubt it since if Tivo does support un-DRM-ing of their content - then what is the point of having DRM in the first place?


TiVo's have TTG. Using TD+ &/or pyTiVo you can transfer & transcode the file to play on multiple devices. It does remove it from the .TiVo container and change it to the appropriate container type or even transcode it. It is allowed because of the licensing.

If you read the DMCA closely you will see various "loop holes" also jsut about anything is legal if it is authorized and licensed. DVD's Blu-rays all DRM but have to be decoded just to be playable and viewable on your TV set.



Hichhiker said:


> I was referring to the quality/usability of the interface. I am yet to see a half-way usable UP&P device - most have horrible problems with exact kinds of files they play and ff/rew issues - not to mention some of the most horrific UI's. (My Samsung TV's UP&P client is nearly useless). I do not have much experience with WD Media Player Live - will check it out. That said, given a file on a network share, playback is not really an issue. There are always XBMC/Boxee/etc solutions that work great.


Everyone has their preferences. Example. The UI for Netflix. I LOVE the Netflix UI that is implemented on the XBox 360. Absolutely HATE the Netflix UI that is used on the TiVo's. Thet Netflix UI that is used on my LG BD590 Blu-ray player is ok... not nearly as bad as TiVo, but not near is nice as the Xbox 360. Every UI is different. Some love the Boxee interface. Personally I don't like it. The WD Live UI is ok... I could see it being alot better. It isn't perfect, but there are other devices that are ALOT worse.

Personally... I don't really like the old TiVo UI when it comes to the NPL. One of the MAIN reasons I have a DLNA NAS. You can't create your own folders or organize your recorded shows the way I would like on a TiVo. You can do that on a NAS & using pyTiVo the organization is wonderful.

Simply put... When it comes to UI's for ANY device. We all have some complaints about every device we use! I can't stand the UI of current vehicles either? Why are we still using Steering wheels? Gas Pedals? Brake Pedals? and most of all why the hell are we still using *KEYS*!



Hichhiker said:


> I think the market may be larger than you'd think. But it would be limited to Tivo owners (small market to begin with). I think most people do not realise the potential of something like this - people always get completely amazed at my home setup because I have a simple distribution system that lets me watch either of my Tivos or XBMC on any TV in house. For most people, this is not even in a realm of possibility - but it does not mean they do not want it.


95% of the time I talk to anyone about home theater systems, most it seems don't even have the slightest idea what a DVR is or even a TiVo. Those that do haven't even conceived of all the possibilities. The majority of american mass consumers, (Not early adopters, geeks, nerds, or techies) are "SLOW" when it comes to using electronc devices. I will give you an example of this.

GPS. I have been using GPS in my car in some form or another since early *1990*. All the things that are *NOW* coming out that are making use of GPS, such as phones, cameras, etc I thought of back in the early 1990's. I wished that when I traveled and took pics that I had some form of GPS tracking on my camera. I dreamed of being able to have a portable GPS device in my phone that could tell me where I was without haveing to carry a suitcase sized GPS system. It has been 20 years, & yet GPS Navigation is *STILL* yet to be available (even as an option) in vehicles currently on the market today.

Think of TiVo. How long has TiVo been selling DVR's? Yet TiVo still doesn't have the market share of DVR's. Most DVR's in consumers homes are still provided by Dish/DirecTV or your cable provider. Most mass consumers don't want to pay up front for a box. They would prefer to just pay monthly for the box from their cable provider. There are advantages to this. Your DVR dies, the cable company will replace it for no extra fee. One of the reasons I never bought a cable modem. Esepcailly since a cable modem rental fee for my area is only a $1 a month.



Hichhiker said:


> As for monthly fee, I am afraid you are right, and I would think that would kill this product in its infancy. It would also expose the dirty little lie Tivo kept telling us, in that the reasoning for the monthly fees is so that you get the service such as TVGuide info, etc -- since THEY have to pay for it for you. This device will need no TVGuide data nor any other service as it would be completely driven by contents of the full Tivo's in the household. You dont have to pay monthly fees on DVD players - this is not any different. So charging fees for this would just underscore the fact that Tivo is not selling as much hardware as it needs to survive and is leeching of its subscribers to survive.


Today it's all about subscription fees. Why? because in general while we all complain about them. We still pay them. Think about all the number of things we pay "monthly" for. What most don't realize is that a company wants a single user to generate a certain amount of revenue. Example.

You but a TiVo for $499, & then pay $299 for a lifetime subscription. They generated $798. Now look at the moxi. No subscription fee. But then again it's around $798 as well. (lets not discuss the differences between the two boxes). My point being is that while moxi doesn't charge a subscription fee, they charge more for the box.

TiVo WOULD do the same thing as well. However... After many many years of market research. (I have taken one of those surveys myself a few years back) They have found that MORE people would rather spend $499 for the box, and $299 for a lifetime subscription then spend $798 and the box not need a subscription. It's called PERCEIVED value. We feel like we are getting MORE with by paying a small amount for TWO items instead of a LARGE amount for ONE item.

I am in the restaurant/food business. Look at candy bars. They don't raise the price they keep the same price but make the candy bar smaller.

Another example... In my restaurant. Rather than charge $9.99 for one large chicken fried steak meal with all the sides. I charge $14.99 and you get two smaller chicken fried steaks... with all the same sides. Your actually still getting the same amount of chicken fried steak in both meals. (The two smaller ones are half the size of the big one). Yet when I did that. People PERCEIVE & FEEL like they are getting more food, when in fact they aren't. When I made the change My Chicken fried steak meals sales increased by a whopping 80% in just one month alone! My profit margin on the chicken fried steak meals increased by a factor of 15% as well.

You have to remember TiVo is in buisness to make money. So it's all about the bottom line. What do people actually really do? Believe it or not, Most consumers don't really do the wisest thing when it comes to spending money. Especially in electronics AND the restaurant buisness!



Hichhiker said:


> I like the idea of the poll and I fear you may be right on the results. For one, *I* would not be willing to pay monthly fees of any sort for this to Tivo on general principle. I understand the fees for STB boxes from cable company - but this is different as they are not providing me any content (box WITH a tuner is a bit different, but as you said, it would invariably ALSO incur costs from cable company for the same box and same content)


Yep... as much as we may hate it. They would have some form of subscription fees I am sure. Oh... one other note. Some people look at subscription fees as a form of payment for all the so called "Free" software updates your TiVo's get. I am sure if TiVo did away with subscription fees, they would start charging for *MAJOR* software updates that includes *NEW* features. So the MRV only box would have a subscription fee to cover the cost of providing "Free" software UPGRADES.



Hichhiker said:


> So the conclusion seems to be that, as it stands, Tivo simply cannot compete in this market. Of course there is a more radical solution to this for Tivo - stick to your core business and let go of some of the control on the periphery. There is no reason why Tivo could not just include a UP&P server so that devices like WD Media Player Live (and many TVs that now come with UP&P clients built in) would just work with it without 20 hoops to jump through. It would not be an ideal solution , but it may put them back on the map as a viable option for people. Mind you, I know this will never happen, but it is unfortunate for consumers AND for Tivo. Right now my real options are to buy two Tivos and invest thousands and thousands in HDMI distribution system, or just buy a truckload of tivos, or get all of this functionality, albeit with not-as-good-but-passable DVR, from someone else for next to nothing. Does not look good for tivo, does it?
> 
> -HH


Well I do believe TiVo does need to do more with what they have to work with. There are many reasons why they don't &/or can't do some of the things that they really should be doing.

TiVo is a pretty conservative company. While they will go after and sue others for various reasons. They work very very hard as not to even come close to any gray areas to possibly get sued. They can't afford to BE sued & even lose. I beleive that is one of the reasons why they have shyed away from TiVo to TiVo streaming capability. Especially for those recordings that have the "Copy Protection" flag set.

I don't know how your house is setup, or your "Systems" are set up. But I have 3 TV's and 3 TiVo's. I have one blu-ray player, one XBox 360, 3 Sling boxs (2 classic and one HD-PRo), and one WD Media Player Live.

Every TV has a TiVo, & every tivo has a slingbox. The Home theater TV has a Blu-ray player and a XBox 360. one of the other TV's has the WD live hooked to it besides the TiVo.

I have a dedicated Computer running TD+, Playon & pyTiVo. I have DLNA NAS server. The computer server automatically copies and converts my favorite series from ANY of the TiVo's and copies them to the DLNA server.

All the TiVo's, the Blu-ray player which has a networked media player built in, the XBox 360, as well as the WD media player Liver can ALL see the video/music/pics on the DLNA server. When I want to watch them I can, on any set. The show is transfered via my wired network cable.

I also RIP Blu-ray movies (That I own) and save them to my DLNA NAS server as well. That way I can watch them on ANY TV ANY time ANYONE wants too.

Investment costs...
First TiVo $800 (The S3 when first released) 2 HD units $300 a piece. 2 DLNA NAS servers in Raid 5 configuartion each with 4 - 2TB drives. (Gives me a total of 12TB of space) $2000. Computer $199, TD+ $29. pyTiVo free. Playon software $19. Wired the house in network cable myself for $350. (Cat 6). WD Live $99, LG BD590 Blu-ray player $379.

The system works just fine for me. I can watch anything I have on any TV I wish too. The only ones I can't are those shows that have the "Copy Protected" flag set. I can watch most shows almost immediately. Albeit there are some speed issues transfering HD between TiVo's sometimes.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Hichhiker said:


> Neither can my current Tivo (at least not legally). Its a nice feature, but I can't find that I miss not having it. I did set up the hacked version - but never use it. And with this setup I really won't need to, would I? One DVR in LR for HD there, one in closet for additional tuners and a bridge to my current SD distribution setup, and then an the "Moxi Mate" (basically the device I described in this thread) in other rooms. Cool thing is that it even supports live TV via "Mate" - not something I expected.
> 
> My main concern is the usability. From what I see so far, it seems like its a pretty solid UI. It has 30-sec skip - which is essential, IMHO - and it does all the standard season passes, new only, priorities, and other stuff.
> 
> ...


I think I missed something though. *IF* your on_ DirecTV_. A Moxi isn't going to work for you. Moxi's are setup for Cable / FIOS use only.

Your pretty much "Stuck" with what you have and getting additional DirecTV TiVo's /DVR's.

TTG is perfectly legal with TiVo's on a cable/FiOS system. It isn't with DirecTV because DirecTV doesn't provide the licensing for TTG.

TGC


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> .................I also RIP Blu-ray movies (That I own) and save them to my DLNA NAS server as well. That way I can watch them on ANY TV ANY time ANYONE wants too.
> 
> ....


Whether you rip BDs that you own or rent, it doesn't matter. it's just as illegal.



TexasGrillChef said:


> .................2 DLNA NAS servers in Raid 5 configuartion each with 4 - 2TB drives. (Gives me a total of 12TB of space) $2000....


That's rather expensive for only 12TB of storage. I have over fifty Terabytes of storage on my network for around 2.5x that cost.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> That's rather expensive for only 12TB of storage. I have over fifty Terabytes of storage on my network for around 2.5x that cost.


Really how?

8 - 2TB drives at $200 each total $1600. Each NAS box bare was $200 for a total of $400.

Street price of 2TB drives is still around $200. Although you could find them for a bit less online from some questionable dealers as well.

TGC


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## Hichhiker (Apr 21, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> TiVo's have TTG. Using TD+ &/or pyTiVo you can transfer & transcode the file to play on multiple devices. It does remove it from the .TiVo container and change it to the appropriate container type or even transcode it. It is allowed because of the licensing.
> 
> If you read the DMCA closely you will see various "loop holes" also jsut about anything is legal if it is authorized and licensed. DVD's Blu-rays all DRM but have to be decoded just to be playable and viewable on your TV set.


You missed the point - if Tivo allows you to store a decrypted version - what was the point of encrypting it in the first place?



TexasGrillChef said:


> Everyone has their preferences. Example. The UI for Netflix. I LOVE the Netflix UI that is implemented on the XBox 360. Absolutely HATE the Netflix UI that is used on the TiVo's. Thet Netflix UI that is used on my LG BD590 Blu-ray player is ok... not nearly as bad as TiVo, but not near is nice as the Xbox 360. Every UI is different. Some love the Boxee interface. Personally I don't like it. The WD Live UI is ok... I could see it being alot better. It isn't perfect, but there are other devices that are ALOT worse.


Most UP&P clients that I have seen do not really allow you to see more than two or three items at a time, which, combined with lack of sorting control, makes it impossible to navigate. But it is purely the fault of the client and I only saw some of them - there are bound to be decent ones.



TexasGrillChef said:


> Personally... I don't really like the old TiVo UI when it comes to the NPL. One of the MAIN reasons I have a DLNA NAS. You can't create your own folders or organize your recorded shows the way I would like on a TiVo. You can do that on a NAS & using pyTiVo the organization is wonderful.
> 
> Simply put... When it comes to UI's for ANY device. We all have some complaints about every device we use! I can't stand the UI of current vehicles either? Why are we still using Steering wheels? Gas Pedals? Brake Pedals? and most of all why the hell are we still using *KEYS*!


Erm, many cars these days use keys as a backup mechanism only - and you need that backup, cause when you battery is dead, good luck using that fancy proximity remote ;-) As for steering wheels/pedals/etc - this is mostly to keep manufacturers from doing stupid things like "suicide shifters".



TexasGrillChef said:


> 95% of the time I talk to anyone about home theater systems, most it seems don't even have the slightest idea what a DVR is or even a TiVo. Those that do haven't even conceived of all the possibilities. The majority of american mass consumers, (Not early adopters, geeks, nerds, or techies) are "SLOW" when it comes to using electronc devices. I will give you an example of this.


Maybe I just live in a different part of the world, but around here most people are familiar with DVRs (even though many do not have them)



TexasGrillChef said:


> GPS. I have been using GPS in my car in some form or another since early *1990*. All the things that are *NOW* coming out that are making use of GPS, such as phones, cameras, etc I thought of back in the early 1990's. I wished that when I traveled and took pics that I had some form of GPS tracking on my camera. I dreamed of being able to have a portable GPS device in my phone that could tell me where I was without haveing to carry a suitcase sized GPS system. It has been 20 years, & yet GPS Navigation is *STILL* yet to be available (even as an option) in vehicles currently on the market today.


Ok, now I just think you are exaggerating a bit here. For one, as I recall, unless you were in the military, GPS was not available to public until mid 90's. And for two, GPS option has been offered in cars for over a decade now, and from what I hear, these days its starting to appear as a standard option on some models.



TexasGrillChef said:


> Think of TiVo. How long has TiVo been selling DVR's? Yet TiVo still doesn't have the market share of DVR's. Most DVR's in consumers homes are still provided by Dish/DirecTV or your cable provider. Most mass consumers don't want to pay up front for a box. They would prefer to just pay monthly for the box from their cable provider. There are advantages to this. Your DVR dies, the cable company will replace it for no extra fee. One of the reasons I never bought a cable modem. Esepcailly since a cable modem rental fee for my area is only a $1 a month.


I think this has more to do with Tivo not being able to market properly. The cable/sat companies already were in the space but instead of working with them, they worked against them. Resulting market share is not a surprise.



TexasGrillChef said:


> Today it's all about subscription fees. Why? because in general while we all complain about them. We still pay them. Think about all the number of things we pay "monthly" for. What most don't realize is that a company wants a single user to generate a certain amount of revenue. Example.


Of all the things I pay monthly for, all are for things providing some sort of external service to me. This is not the case with the box described here. And no, software updates do not count. I'd rather pay once in a while to get feature upgrades than to pay in a blind hope that one day they may deem me worthy of a software upgrade. (and given Tivo's track record in this department, its probably going to break something anyway) I pay for my cell phone service because it provides me with a communication channel. I do not pay monthly for my GPS or for my toaster - as there is nothing the company that manufactures these other than warranty and support that is part of its cost. I assume you would object paying monthly fees for your WD live or your hard drives?



TexasGrillChef said:


> You but a TiVo for $499, & then pay $299 for a lifetime subscription. They generated $798. Now look at the moxi. No subscription fee. But then again it's around $798 as well. (lets not discuss the differences between the two boxes). My point being is that while moxi doesn't charge a subscription fee, they charge more for the box.
> 
> TiVo WOULD do the same thing as well. However... After many many years of market research. (I have taken one of those surveys myself a few years back) They have found that MORE people would rather spend $499 for the box, and $299 for a lifetime subscription then spend $798 and the box not need a subscription. It's called PERCEIVED value. We feel like we are getting MORE with by paying a small amount for TWO items instead of a LARGE amount for ONE item.


I think your numbers are a bit off, Tivo lifetime these days is $399 (though the unit is cheaper - $299 - so $698) - which is still a hefty 40% premium over Moxy's $499. And its double that when you have to choose between full blown Tivo vs Moxi Mate ($299) - at $400 savings per TV, that adds up to a huge difference once you get a few of them.



TexasGrillChef said:


> I am in the restaurant/food business. Look at candy bars. They don't raise the price they keep the same price but make the candy bar smaller.
> 
> Another example... In my restaurant. Rather than charge $9.99 for one large chicken fried steak meal with all the sides. I charge $14.99 and you get two smaller chicken fried steaks... with all the same sides. Your actually still getting the same amount of chicken fried steak in both meals. (The two smaller ones are half the size of the big one). Yet when I did that. People PERCEIVE & FEEL like they are getting more food, when in fact they aren't. When I made the change My Chicken fried steak meals sales increased by a whopping 80% in just one month alone! My profit margin on the chicken fried steak meals increased by a factor of 15% as well.


I am not arguing that sometime perceived value is not same as actual. And sometimes people perceive more expensive items as more valuable even thought they are identical in every other respect. But that only works sometimes and most of the time it just puts you out of business. It does not excuse overcharging for things.

As for your example, its completely off-topic but I really think your math is a bit off again. I am not sure what "factor of 15%" actually means, ...[deleted - I realized you probably meant 150% - that makes more sense]



TexasGrillChef said:


> You have to remember TiVo is in buisness to make money. So it's all about the bottom line. What do people actually really do? Believe it or not, Most consumers don't really do the wisest thing when it comes to spending money. Especially in electronics AND the restaurant buisness!


You have to also remember that loss of half of the subscriber base, including, it looks like, myself who's been a Tivo advocate since 2000, does not make good business. People forget that just charging more money does not make a good business. You have to provide value to the consumer for that money.



TexasGrillChef said:


> Yep... as much as we may hate it. They would have some form of subscription fees I am sure. Oh... one other note. Some people look at subscription fees as a form of payment for all the so called "Free" software updates your TiVo's get. I am sure if TiVo did away with subscription fees, they would start charging for *MAJOR* software updates that includes *NEW* features. So the MRV only box would have a subscription fee to cover the cost of providing "Free" software UPGRADES.
> 
> Well I do believe TiVo does need to do more with what they have to work with. There are many reasons why they don't &/or can't do some of the things that they really should be doing.


I am not against the subscription fees - but you got to provide me something for it. In this case, they would already be charging me money for the first one (or more likely two) DVR boxes - as they provide the tribune data (costing them $20/year/box + servers+bandwidth). I can understand that - well, at least until they try cramming ads down my throat. But I do not see the reason for charging me for other boxes that they will NOT be providing service to. The box I am describing will have as much service from Tivo as your WD Live device does from WD. Its a playback device - thats all. Given the $200 netbooks, $99 Roku, and soon to be $200 Boxee box, the hardware is cheap enough and they have a solid software base already - it will not cost much to develop and can make a reasonable profit margin without monthly fees. Plus it may segway Tivo out of the dead end they currently find themselves in.

In 2001 I was working with a company developing what is now the basis for all those FiOS and other telco based video delivery services (TV streams over uber-high speed vDSL). At that time the DVR death was clearly written on the wall. Once they have a direct unicast access to your home, they simply can provide all shows/content on-demand without storing anything at home at all. There was time back then for Tivo to morph into something else, become the front-end for the content delivery or become their own content provider or aggregator. Now that time is running out - comcast, at&t, verizon, apple, amazon, boxee, etc are all eating Tivo's lunch and laughing.

Tivo got stuck in time and failed to make inroads with cable, lost DTV, and barely moved forward on hardware. They spend so much time making things more convoluted, they forgot to bring the value.



TexasGrillChef said:


> TiVo is a pretty conservative company. While they will go after and sue others for various reasons. They work very very hard as not to even come close to any gray areas to possibly get sued. They can't afford to BE sued & even lose. I beleive that is one of the reasons why they have shyed away from TiVo to TiVo streaming capability. Especially for those recordings that have the "Copy Protection" flag set.


Well, on one hand they are still here. On the other hand they are barely so. Being conservative can keep a company from going under, but it rarely makes a company grow. As always, the path is somewhere in between.



TexasGrillChef said:


> I don't know how your house is setup, or your "Systems" are set up. But I have 3 TV's and 3 TiVo's. I have one blu-ray player, one XBox 360, 3 Sling boxs (2 classic and one HD-PRo), and one WD Media Player Live.
> 
> Every TV has a TiVo, & every tivo has a slingbox. The Home theater TV has a Blu-ray player and a XBox 360. one of the other TV's has the WD live hooked to it besides the TiVo.
> 
> ...


My current system is setup as such:

Closet:
=====
2x S2 DTivos 
1x XBOX running xbmc 
1x SVideo distribution system (going out to 5(up to 8) TVs via coax w/IR controls.)

Living Room
========
1x S2 DTivo - mostly for MRV use
1x Mac Mini - mostly a toy, XBMC, Boxee, etc - not really a part of this

All TVs:
=========
IR target
TV
Universal remote

On any tv you can press a button and control anything in the closet. Identical remotes in every room which work exactly the same for the wife factor.

There are a number of NASes in the garage, but those change and migrate too often to count. I can just as well share out a drive from my desktop.

Total costs: 
$300 - about $99 per S2 DTivo (much cheaper these days I am sure)
$125 - Xbox + modchip
$900 - Distribution system with distribution splitter and IR targets ( I think it was cheaper actually, but its been a while)
~$200 - for 6 remotes 1 harmony, rest are $20 JP1's
I did all my own wiring and I already had cables.

This setup is amazingly simple and works wonders. As someone once said - "marital bliss is 'his' and 'hers' Tivos". We each have our own box to program and watch but can always switch to the other one if need be. We can also watch same thing on multiple TVs in the house or each watch our own thing. The big problem here is complete lack of HD. There are no cheap household ATSC modulators (although ZeeVee now has one, but component or VGA only and not cheap) There is an alternative in using HDMI distribution systems (send HDMI to TV via a HDMI matrix switch but a reasonable matrix switch (4x8) alone is $2-$3k minimum, and with HDMI being 2-way - this can cause all sorts of weirdness in connection negotiating.

So, I wanted to see if switching to a network based distribution (MRV) is worth while - but its not an option with Tivo (too much per tv to get MRV boxes). Moxi is an option, but its 3x the cost per "Mate" I was thinking and adds up too quickly too. Its an option for AT&T and new DirecTV - and its relatively cheap (something like $99 + $5/mos per box)

With boxee box on horizon, I am also wondering if TTG route is worthwhile. If automation is reliable it may be worth it, just use tivo for recording and watch through Boxee or UP&P boxes - but who knows. I have also been mulling dumping DVR and TV providers altogether and go through Netfix/Amazon route. May cut down on amount of TV I watch, which would be a plus.

In any case, we really gotten off-topic here. I was wondering what people thought of an MRV-only box - and now there is a poll to find out exactly that.

-HH


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## Hichhiker (Apr 21, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> I think I missed something though. *IF* your on_ DirecTV_. A Moxi isn't going to work for you. Moxi's are setup for Cable / FIOS use only.
> 
> Your pretty much "Stuck" with what you have and getting additional DirecTV TiVo's /DVR's.
> 
> ...


I am not attached to DirecTV - 10 years ago a DirecTivo had no rivals, today everyone caught up and surpassed. I assumed that with Tivo I would have to dump DTV as well.

As for TTG - the question is not if TTG is legal - the question is - is it legal to decode .tivo files.

-HH


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Hichhiker said:


> You missed the point - if Tivo allows you to store a decrypted version - what was the point of encrypting it in the first place?


the decrypted version is of significantly less quality than the original. It is meant for portable screens like a laptop or smartphone. and would look awful on a large screen. Content owners have not been worried about lower quality rips for some time.
I stopped reading your post after the above quote because you are just the kind of poster I have decided to lighten up on versus go point by point, simply not worth it anymore. have fun.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Hichhiker said:


> TexasGrillChef said:
> 
> 
> > GPS. I have been using GPS in my car in some form or another since early 1990. All the things that are NOW coming out that are making use of GPS, such as phones, cameras, etc I thought of back in the early 1990's. I wished that when I traveled and took pics that I had some form of GPS tracking on my camera. I dreamed of being able to have a portable GPS device in my phone that could tell me where I was without haveing to carry a suitcase sized GPS system. It has been 20 years, & yet GPS Navigation is STILL yet to be available (even as an option) in vehicles currently on the market today.
> ...


Civilian versions were around earlier than that (although I'm not aware of any with integrated maps).

I remember during the 1st gulf war that GPS selective avalibility got turned off over Iraq because the DoD didn't have enough military GPS units (not affected by selective avalibility) so a lot of troops were using civilian versions.

And I believe TexasGrillChef's point wasn't that no cars offer GPS, it's that some new cars _don't_ offer it; even as an option. 
IOW that there currently exist new cars for which you cannot order built in GPS. (That 20 years after it became avalible and years after it became a common feature it isn't yet a ubiquitously avalible option)


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## Hichhiker (Apr 21, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the decrypted version is of significantly less quality than the original. It is meant for portable screens like a laptop or smartphone. and would look awful on a large screen. Content owners have not been worried about lower quality rips for some time.


Ok, that actually makes sense. I was replying to this orignialy - claiming just the opposite



> You don't have to break the DRM. Using Tivo Desktop + 2.8 &/or pyTiVo you can transfer the shows to your computer. No DRM to break or anything. Of coruse you can't transfer the "Copy Protected" shows. But even the "Copy Protected" shows you can't even transfer from TiVo to TiVo either so it's a moot point. Even if you had a MRV only box. The "Copy Protected" shows would not be able to play on that box either. (At least currently).
> 
> As far as it being manual. It doesn't have to be. TD+ can AUTOMATICALLY transfer shows as you see fit. You can setup the conversion from .TiVo to .MPG automatically too.
> 
> In regards to quality. There is NO quality loss. The WD Media Player Live can play content in it's full 1080p/24 or 60fps quality along with DD5.1 audio as well. Many of the others can even play DTS. Something that the TiVo can't currently do either.





ZeoTiVo said:


> I stopped reading your post after the above quote because you are just the kind of poster I have decided to lighten up on versus go point by point, simply not worth it anymore. have fun.


Fair enough, considering my entire post was a point-by-point reply to TGS - (which was also, probably not worth my time writing, let alone your time reading, let alone your time replying). I am not sure why we got into all of this side discussions, but the real question I had was about chances of Tivo having an inexpensive MRV-only box and the general interest in such a device. (Larger question being, what are my options if I want to join 21st century and move to HD)

BTW, Your Moxi suggestion was just on the nose, as "Moxi Mate" is exactly that kind of a device I was talking about.

-HH


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Really how?
> 
> 8 - 2TB drives at $200 each total $1600. Each NAS box bare was $200 for a total of $400.
> 
> ...


Not sure where you are shopping. 1tb are down to 69, 1.5tb to 99 and 2tb to 139 and lower.


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## Hichhiker (Apr 21, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> Civilian versions were around earlier than that (although I'm not away of any with integrated maps).
> 
> I remember during the 1st gulf war that GPS selective avalibility got turned off over Iraq because the DoD didn't have enough military GPS units (not affected by selective avalibility) so a lot of troops were using civilian versions.


I stand corrected. I could have sworn I remember announcement of opening of GPS to civilians right around time Internet was opened to businesses - i.e. 1993 - but I guess I am wrong.



Jonathan_S said:


> And I believe TexasGrillChef's point wasn't that no cars offer GPS, it's that some new cars _don't_ offer it; even as an option.
> IOW that there currently exist new cars for which you cannot order built in GPS. (That 20 years after it became avalible and years after it became a common feature it isn't yet a ubiquitously avalible option)


In that case I misunderstood that. I recall reading an article a while back about car companies backing away from or rethinking the built-in GPS systems because they lowed resale value. The argument was that the system was expensive (often extra $2k+) yet very quickly became outdated in maps AND in looks and features. They compared it to cars with built in phones. I am not sure how much I buy that argument, but it would certainly make it a good argument for making car entertainment system run an OS of some sort (Android?) and let people sell apps for it instead of having it be a dedicated closed hardware. Even if the app would be a hardware device that plugs in under the hood or in the trunk, I would much rather have a TomTom app in my car than either a TomTom device or most of the OEM Navs. And it would be nice to have options.

-HH


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Really how?
> 
> 8 - 2TB drives at $200 each total $1600. Each NAS box bare was $200 for a total of $400.
> 
> ...


That's why it's so expensive. $200 for a 2TB drive is high. The last ten 2TB drives I purchased were around $140 each including shipping. Purchased from Newegg and Amazon. The last ten 1.5TB drives I purchased where around $100 shipped, again from Amazon and Newegg.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Hichhiker

Aha... I see your system now.

Ok... well it looks like your NOT getting HD on your system now. Deffinately not with S2 DirecTiVo units & for sure NOT with Svideo.

CNet's Molly Wood did an interview with TiVo's CEO and DirecTV will have a NEW TiVo unit coming out later this year that will fully support HD, and all the new capabilities that the S2 is not capable of at this time.

When those new DirecTV TiVo's are released you will be able to get TTG, & MRV capability between TWO (or more) DirecTV TiVo's. All will be perfectly legal. Provided you don't try to resell your recordings & transfers.

The new Series 3, Series 4 units don't really truly fully support working with the older S2 units. Sadly therefore even *if* TiVo did release an MRV only box. It *PROBABLY* would *NOT* work with your *OLDER* S2 units anyways.

Keep in mind though. That the Moxi's *WON'T* work with DirecTV. Moxi *AND *TiVO *won't* work with AT&T UVERSE either.

When the new DirecTV TiVO is released later this year, it will have MRV & TTG capability. Keep in mind though that some channels will be "COPY PROTECTED" and you WON'T be able to MRV or TTG any of the shows on that channel. Example HBO, Showtime, ESPN, etc...

I would say that in your case, based on your system your upgrade path isn't going to be an inexpensive one. However the time is coming. Most of your equipment is still using the older SD standards.

My recomendation. Wait for the new DirecTV HD TiVo (Series 3 DirecTV TiVo) to be released later this year & purchase 2 of those units. Sell your current DirecTV TiVo's on Ebay, then run Cat 6 cable around your house, or check on wireless N networking.

TGC

P.S.... In regards to the GPS... yes I had one back in 1990. It was very big, it was a prototype. I was a Field Beta Tester for Garmin & the Search & Rescue team I worked for back then.

As far as GPS in cars. Yes they have been available as factory installs for about 10 years now. My point I was trying to make is that their are STILL NEW car models that you can go buy today that still DON'T have a factory GPS installed as an OPTION. However automakers usually though are very slow to adopt new "Tech" for their ENTIRE line of cars. It took about 8 years for MP3 capability to make it to EVERY car model as well.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Hichhiker said:


> I am not attached to DirecTV - 10 years ago a DirecTivo had no rivals, today everyone caught up and surpassed. I assumed that with Tivo I would have to dump DTV as well.
> 
> As for TTG - the question is not if TTG is legal - the question is - is it legal to decode .tivo files.
> 
> -HH


TD+ (TiVo Desktop +) software which is provided by TiVo does the decoding. So if it wasn't legal to decode a .TiVo file, I doubt TiVo would provide software that would decode it.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> Not sure where you are shopping. 1tb are down to 69, 1.5tb to 99 and 2tb to 139 and lower.


They are now... but not at the time I bought them. I bought those 8 drives the *FIRST* day they were released for *RETAIL* sale. Thus the higher price.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> That's why it's so expensive. $200 for a 2TB drive is high. The last ten 2TB drives I purchased were around $140 each including shipping. Purchased from Newegg and Amazon. The last ten 1.5TB drives I purchased where around $100 shipped, again from Amazon and Newegg.


Well heres the thing. At the time I bought them I needed them "yesterday". So the reason I paid $200 for them, is because I bought them on the very FIRST day Seagate had them available for RETAIL sales. I didn't buy the "oem" version either. I purchased 8 retail drives on the very FIRST day they were released for sale.

At that time Amazon & Newegg did not have them in stock yet. I bought them from CDW. Because they were the first retail outlet to receive them in stock.

Now of course TODAY you can get the better prices. At the time I bought them, they were still around $200 a pop.

TGC


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

My first five 2TB drives were $140 in November. But I was not going to buy them when they were first released. I did that back when the 250GB drives first came out for around $300 each and swore I would never do that again.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Hichhiker said:


> Fair enough, considering my entire post was a point-by-point reply to TGS - (which was also, probably not worth my time writing, let alone your time reading, let alone your time replying).





> (Larger question being, what are my options if I want to join 21st century and move to HD)
> 
> BTW, Your Moxi suggestion was just on the nose, as "Moxi Mate" is exactly that kind of a device I was talking about.
> 
> -HH


TGC answered your question on moving to HD pretty thoroughly. In regards to his speaking of S2 models - TiVo has legacy to deal with. Streaming is the way to go forward but TiVo S2 records only analog and S3 can record analog signals as well. Being able to stream that older analog stuff is likely a big PITA and requires more processor power than an S2 has. Likely the S3 would have issues streaming recordings from analog cable as well.
The new S4 is likely the first box that can really handle streaming - so TiVo could put out a mate for them but that leaves S3 and S2 users possibly in the dust. TiVo legacy issues on analog cause them a lot of issues other DVR makers do not have to face.

Moxi basically records only Digital out of the box and you have to ask for a USB Analog tuner if you want to record analog.

DirecTV owns the whole signal and DVR box so they have always just recorded digital only.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

Will this work for you?

http://www.bocsco.com/free_tivo_subscription.php


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## Hichhiker (Apr 21, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Hichhiker
> 
> Aha... I see your system now.
> 
> ...


I am fully aware of lack of HD in S2's and that I will need to scrap all of them for any upgrade path. This is why I am posting here, in Premiere forum, because thats the obvious first choice I made.

I am also aware that I will most likely need to dump DTV - I have no attachment to them. 10 years ago DTivo was king, today a premiere with cable is so much better .

The reason nothing will work with UVerse is that its a completely different animal from all the other systems. I do not know this for sure, but from what I've seen, it is very much like (or maybe it is) the stuff I saw at Next Level (now Motorola) when I did some consulting work for them 10 years back. Their setup, I think, is basically ALL MRV(to oversimplify it) - your "DVR" "records" at the CO and you can stream it to any TV with a STB. Basically its an on-demand system that pretends to be a DVR. I suppose you can create a cable card for that, but a DVR with a hard drive in this case is very much redundant.

As for new HD Dtivo - part of me hopes that DTV is smart and will make the MRV on this unit compatible with their own unit's MRV - meaning that the box I am describing here IS the DTV STB. That would be awesome, but I would guess unlikely. I am also not holding my breath for this thing to actually appear - as its been "coming this year" since 2008 - I'll believe it when I see it.

As for the GPS - as per earlier post, I stand corrected.



ZeeTivo said:


> The new S4 is likely the first box that can really handle streaming - so TiVo could put out a mate for them but that leaves S3 and S2 users possibly in the dust. TiVo legacy issues on analog cause them a lot of issues other DVR makers do not have to face.


I have assumed that would be the case, thus posting this idea in Premiere forum. I suppose with some disk space you can do transfers instead of streaming, but either way I have no illusions that my S2 boxes will have to go and if there is a "mate" I would be buying an S4 box of some sort.



Scott D said:


> Will this work for you?
> 
> http://www.bocsco.com/free_tivo_subscription.php


Thanks. Their SD product seems like a consumer friendly version of what I already have but I am curious about their upcoming HD product and what it can handle. I doubt it would handle HDMI, but even component+optical audio may be good enough for my needs. All I want to know is the price. I actually ordered a ZeeVee box to play with QAM modulation, but thats analog only (VGA). if "Bocs HD" is cheap enough, I could totally live with component limitation on most TVs (I can run HDMI baluns for a few key TVs) and this will actually work. Anyone know if Premiere can output both HDMI and Component (and Composite??) at same time? If I can get all three at same time, I could have a perfect system - 2 Premiere's, 2 HDMI baluns, Bocs HD + my existing SVideo system will cover everything I need and then some. 2 locations will have HDMI Premiere connections. Every digital TV can tune into QAM signal from either TIVO via BOCS, and all analog TVs (I still have a few) can still see content in SD. This would be perfect. (I'll have to run extra CAT6's for HDMI drops, but thats easy)

-HH


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> My first five 2TB drives were $140 in November. But I was not going to buy them when they were first released. I did that back when the 250GB drives first came out for around $300 each and swore I would never do that again.


Normally I wait for drives to come down in price a bit before I go out and get them.

My problem was I had 1.5tb drives in my two DLNA NAS systems and both were completely MAXED out at the time. I was dying for more space. So I couldn't wait.

However, since then to give me even more breathing room, I purchased another NAS device. Although this one isn't DLNA certified. That has allowed me to move some of my "Non-Media" stuff off the DLNA NAS devices and put it on this new one. Leaving my DLNA NAS devices to store & serve nothing but meda. (Music, Photos, Video). Now when the 3TB or 4TB drives come out I won't be so rushed to get those drives! LOL

TGC


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

Read through the thread.

The Moxi should be prefect for you. Using internal drive and eSATA you can get quite a bit of storage space.


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## puckettcg (Feb 10, 2006)

Apple TV works as a media extender for me; I have two of them and they don't get a lot of airtime but they are pretty nifty, and relatively cheap little boxes. I have a Mac, but presumably it would work on a PC. I just used iTivo to transfer the show from the Tivo to my Mac and automatically convert to Apple TV format - as soon as its in my iTunes library I can instantly stream to either Apple TV. Streaming actually works very well - even HD streaming. I have transfers scheduled to happen in the middle of the night. The only real complaint I have is that the transfer/convert speed is a little slower than I'd like for HD recordings but it isn't any slower than MRV. 

I thought about the Slingbox option, but after costing it out and realizing it didn't work on wireless it wasn't really a viable solution by the time you buy everything you'd need.


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