# Skip-mode doesn't work with MPEG-4 channels



## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

The title pretty much explains it. I thought I'd create this thread for my fellow Comcast MPEG-4 sufferers. Hopefully TiVo can get this fixed so we can use skip mode on our cable channels. Since Comcast is moving almost all of their markets to MPEG-4 by the end of the year this is kind of a big deal.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

I wonder if this is a bug TiVo can fix?


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## JZC (Jul 24, 2007)

I have Comcast MPEG-4 channels and I just had skip mode appear a few days ago. I don't know why it was slower to roll out but it is available for me now and works great.

Edit: I didn't realize that only some channels were migrated to MPEG-4. It may be that most of my channels are still MPEG-2.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Chevelleman said:


> The title pretty much explains it. I thought I'd create this thread for my fellow Comcast MPEG-4 sufferers. Hopefully TiVo can get this fixed so we can use skip mode on our cable channels. Since Comcast is moving almost all of their markets to MPEG-4 by the end of the year this is kind of a big deal.





JZC said:


> I have Comcast MPEG-4 channels and I just had skip mode appear a few days ago. I don't know why it was slower to roll out but it is available for me now and works great.


As you both have Comcast MPEG4, do you both have the same model Roamio?

Clearly there must be something different to get 2 different results.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

SkipMode uses the captions to sync. Try turning on the captions and watching a bit of the show. Do they look corrupt? Missing letters or words? There was another user who never got SkipMode on his CW recordings. I checked it out for him and it turns out the captions in his recordings were corrupt. He complained to the affiliate, they fixed the issue and SkipMode started working.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

JZC said:


> I have Comcast MPEG-4 channels and I just had skip mode appear a few days ago. I don't know why it was slower to roll out but it is available for me now and works great.


Are you sure your cable channels are MPEG-4 and you're not just seeing it on your local broadcast channels. My local broadcast channels are still MPEG-2 and those get skip mode just fine.

I have old records from when my cable channels were still MPEG 2 and those have skip mode but nothing after the change over to MPEG-4.

This would be the first time I've heard anyone one with MPEG-4 channels get skip mode on those channels.

Also the captions are fine on all my cable channels. It's differently not that. I'm 100% certain MPEG-4 encoded does something to stop skip mode from being added to the shows.

I've been told by TIVo Sarah that they are looking into the problem with MPEG-4.

That's my extended update.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Dan203 said:


> He complained to the affiliate, they fixed the issue and SkipMode started working.


No, they still have not fixed it, seems I am only one of two people that are able to see the errors. 

It is very strange, that the captions are correct before 7pm and after 9pm. It is only the 2 hour block of CW original programming where the captions are messed up.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

JZC said:


> I have Comcast MPEG-4 channels and I just had skip mode appear a few days ago. I don't know why it was slower to roll out but it is available for me now and works great.


It doesn't work on any of the mpeg4 channels here, so I'd be curious to know which networks you see it working on and whether they are actually mpeg4. You can go into DVR Diagnostics to see if they're listed as H.264.

Comcast did not convert all the channels to mpeg4, in other words - for example, all the sports channels here are still mpeg2.


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## meckel (Oct 25, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> SkipMode uses the captions to sync. Try turning on the captions and watching a bit of the show. Do they look corrupt? Missing letters or words? There was another user who never got SkipMode on his CW recordings. I checked it out for him and it turns out the captions in his recordings were corrupt. He complained to the affiliate, they fixed the issue and SkipMode started working.


The captions work fine for me. There is something with the MPEG-4 encoding. I have recorded a few shows on both TNT and USA on the HD and SD channels. The SD channel had SkipMode and the HD did not. The captions were the same.

I used my Bolt and Roamio 2 weeks ago I recorded SD on the Bolt and HD on the Roamio. Last week I did the reverse, in both cases the SD recordings had SkipMode and the HD recordings did not. There has been a few other issues with MPEG-4 channels like fast forward and 30 second skip. TiVo support said they are aware of the MPEG-4 issues and are working on them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> It doesn't work on any of the mpeg4 channels here, so I'd be curious to know which networks you see it working on and whether they are actually mpeg4. You can go into DVR Diagnostics to see if they're listed as H.264.
> 
> Comcast did not convert all the channels to mpeg4, in other words - for example, all the sports channels here are still mpeg2.


I believe all the local stations will be left as MPEG2 as well, at least, that's the plan out here. For how long they stay that way, I don't know, but with the initial transition they'll stay as they are at MPEG2.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

There is a known problem with skip mode and H.264 (Mpeg-4) recordings. Until I have confirmation of something different, I don't believe anyone has "Skip" enabled on any H.264 recording.

Comcast did not convert every HD channel to Mpeg4. Not even all of the non-locals.

The captions are fine on my H.264 recordings, just no skip. Even on programs where I did get Skip on the SD version. "Vikings" is an example.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

keenanSR said:


> I believe all the local stations will be left as MPEG2 as well, at least, that's the plan out here. For how long they stay that way, I don't know, but with the initial transition they'll stay as they are at MPEG2.


I'm pretty sure that Comcast has no plans to convert the locals to H.264.


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

lpwcomp said:


> I'm pretty sure that Comcast has no plans to convert the locals to H.264.


Right, that's been my assumption as well, and it's what they've done so far, but you never know with Comcast.


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## jeffshome (Jan 4, 2002)

I have Comcast in Atlanta and the MPEG-4 channels (HGTV, A&E, SYFY, USA, etc.) do not have Skip Mode - this is on a Bolt. Also FF is messed up - it's 2X or 3X the speed of non-MPEG-4 channels - being fast sounds great but it's not: it's too easy to overshoot the start of the program - and TiVo does not backup correctly for the speed increase.

I love Skip Mode on the non-MPEG-4 channels (ABC, NBC, CBS, CW, FOX) and would like to see it on all the channels it should be available on.

If TiVo can't fix this I bet Comcast rolls MPEG-4 encoding out to all the channels which will kill Skip Mode.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

jeffshome said:


> If TiVo can't fix this I bet Comcast rolls MPEG-4 encoding out to all the channels which will kill Skip Mode.


Extremely unlikely. Why should Comcast give a rodent's posterior about skip mode?

In any case, I fully expect TiVo to fix this.


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## jeffshome (Jan 4, 2002)

I checked the closed captions on the MPEG-4 channels and they are working correctly - so that doesn't seem to be the reason for no Skip on MPEG-4 channels.


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

Does the "trick" 30 sec skip still work right on these MPEG4 channels?


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## meckel (Oct 25, 2007)

keenanSR said:


> Does the "trick" 30 sec skip still work right on these MPEG4 channels?


Only if you hit it once. I find that hitting the 30 sec skip multiple time cause issues similar to fast forwarding. It will overshoot

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

meckel said:


> Only if you hit it once. I find that hitting the 30 sec skip multiple time cause issues similar to fast forwarding. It will overshoot


Not seeing this problem with 30 second skip. Are you using skip or scan?


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

lpwcomp said:


> Not seeing this problem with 30 second skip. Are you using skip or scan?


I'm also having the same problem with 30 second skip.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Chevelleman said:


> I'm also having the same problem with 30 second skip.


Same question - skip or scan?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

SkipMode not working on H.264 could be intentional, and directly related to FF and 30 second skip issues. It could be that the skip points are accurate enough on H.264 channels due to really long GOPs. Temporal compression, used by both MPEG-2 and H.264, is a little tricky. You can't just jump to any frame in a video. You have to jump to special entry points. In MPEG-2 every I frame is an entry point, and they typically insert an I frame every 1/2 second or so. So if you jump to a specific point in time the worse you're off is 1/4 of a second. With H.264 they use open GOPs, so not every I frame is a safe entry point. I've personally seen H.264 files with 10 second GOPs. Which means that jumping to a specific point in time could be off +/- 5 whole seconds. That makes it tricky to have precise skip points like those used by SkipMode. Especially since, based on my research, they always seem to jump forward to the next entry point and not back. Which means they could potentially jump almost a full 10 seconds into the program on a file encoded like I described. That's no good.

I see two possible solutions... 

1) They change the code to always scan backwards to the nearest entry point instead, which would result in the user seeing more commercial but at least they wouldn't skip content.

2) They actually do a buffered decode of the stream so that they skip back, just like option 1, but decode faster then realtime until they find the actual frame they want and then start playing. This might not even be possible depending on how exactly their hardware works.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> Not seeing this problem with 30 second skip. Are you using skip or scan?


Neither am I, using skip.


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## meckel (Oct 25, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> Not seeing this problem with 30 second skip. Are you using skip or scan?


Scan

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

So it seems that the legacy "30 sec skip trick" will still work with MPEG4 even if SkipMode won't, at least we'll still have that.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> SkipMode not working on H.264 could be intentional, and directly related to FF and 30 second skip issues. It could be that the skip points are accurate enough on H.264 channels due to really long GOPs. Temporal compression, used by both MPEG-2 and H.264, is a little tricky. You can't just jump to any frame in a video. You have to jump to special entry points. In MPEG-2 every I frame is an entry point, and they typically insert an I frame every 1/2 second or so. So if you jump to a specific point in time the worse you're off is 1/4 of a second. With H.264 they use open GOPs, so not every I frame is a safe entry point. I've personally seen H.264 files with 10 second GOPs. Which means that jumping to a specific point in time could be off +/- 5 whole seconds. That makes it tricky to have precise skip points like those used by SkipMode. Especially since, based on my research, they always seem to jump forward to the next entry point and not back. Which means they could potentially jump almost a full 10 seconds into the program on a file encoded like I described. That's no good.
> 
> I see two possible solutions...
> 
> ...


Actually, I had been meaning to ask you this for a week. Based on your analysis, does Skip Mode go to the start of the GOP or the nearest I frame?


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

lpwcomp said:


> Same question - skip or scan?


Skip


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> SkipMode not working on H.264 could be intentional, and directly related to FF and 30 second skip issues. It could be that the skip points are accurate enough on H.264 channels due to really long GOPs. Temporal compression, used by both MPEG-2 and H.264, is a little tricky. You can't just jump to any frame in a video. You have to jump to special entry points. In MPEG-2 every I frame is an entry point, and they typically insert an I frame every 1/2 second or so. So if you jump to a specific point in time the worse you're off is 1/4 of a second. With H.264 they use open GOPs, so not every I frame is a safe entry point. I've personally seen H.264 files with 10 second GOPs. Which means that jumping to a specific point in time could be off +/- 5 whole seconds. That makes it tricky to have precise skip points like those used by SkipMode. Especially since, based on my research, they always seem to jump forward to the next entry point and not back. Which means they could potentially jump almost a full 10 seconds into the program on a file encoded like I described. That's no good.
> 
> I see two possible solutions...
> 
> ...


Awesome info. Now we know what TiVo engineers have to deal with. Let's see if TiVo can come up with a good solution before most cable carriers move to MPEG-4.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

keenanSR said:


> So it seems that the legacy "30 sec skip trick" will still work with MPEG4 even if SkipMode won't, at least we'll still have that.


Yeah 30-sec skip (and skip back) still works great on mp4 channels. Scan is broken as is 2x/3x FF/REW.



Dan203 said:


> SkipMode not working on H.264 could be intentional, and directly related to FF and 30 second skip issues.


I'm not following how SM wouldn't be doable given that the Tivo code already knows about how to skip around an H.264 video using time. I get your explanation and you are the man when it comes to this stuff, but it doesn't jive with what I see.

FF/REW is indeed not working well, but skip for some reason works fine which to me means that SM should also work.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Actually, I had been meaning to ask you this for a week. Based on your analysis, does Skip Mode go to the start of the GOP or the nearest I frame?


Based on what I've seen the skip points are in milliseconds. So the TiVo jumps to that point in ms and then starts playing at the next I frame. With H.264 the "I frames" can be really far apart, so if they do that same thing the next "I frame" could be seconds from where they wanted to be.

Note: I put "I frame" in quotes beause with H.264 not every I frame is a safe entry point. You need an IDR frame or an I frame with the SEI entry point flag set.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> I'm not following how SM wouldn't be doable given that the Tivo code already knows about how to skip around an H.264 video using time. I get your explanation and you are the man when it comes to this stuff, but it doesn't jive with what I see.
> 
> FF/REW is indeed not working well, but skip for some reason works fine which to me means that SM should also work.


You should enable the clock on your TiVo and then use 30 second skip, does it actually jump 30 seconds? Or is it more/less then you expect? If the GOPs in your H.264 recordings are short enough then it shouldn't be a problem, but as I said above I've see H.264 broadcasts with 10 second GOPs, so in that case a 30 second skip could be off by +/- 9 seconds depending on how close to the start of the next GOP your 30 second jump lands.

Although to be fair most of the H.264 recording I've seen are from Europe. They might be using smaller GOPs here in the US. We tend to standardize more here then they do over there. Although recently I,ve seen some pretty funky MPEG-2 encoding from US cable systems, presumably to reduce the bitrate, so who knows what they'll do with H.264 in the future to squeeze the bitrate even more.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Chevelleman said:


> Skip


Just so we're clear - you hit the "Skip" button say 4 times in quick succession and it jumps 4 times and you are more than 2 minutes ahead?


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

lpwcomp said:


> Just so we're clear - you hit the "Skip" button say 4 times in quick succession and it jumps 4 times and you are more than 2 minutes ahead?


Yes it does that then quickly goes back to where it should be. So it still works but just does it very weird like that.


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## bobdec01 (Jan 20, 2011)

Just an update on roll out here.. In the Atlanta Comcast (Xfinity) area Skip Mode showed up on my Roamio and 3 - mini's on 3/12. The mini's required a reset to show the green SM icon, the Roamio did not. Most recorded shows now have SM icon with a couple of exceptions, TNHD (841 in Atl) Major Crimes is one of them... Looks like subject of this thread has been resolved..


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

bobdec01 said:


> Just an update on roll out here.. In the Atlanta Comcast (Xfinity) area Skip Mode showed up on my Roamio and 3 - mini's on 3/12. The mini's required a reset to show the green SM icon, the Roamio did not. Most recorded shows now have SM icon with a couple of exceptions, TNHD (841 in Atl) Major Crimes is one of them... Looks like subject of this thread has been resolved..


Not even Comcast has converted all channels to mpeg4 (yet). On what mpeg4 channels and programs have you seen SkipMode recordings appear?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

lpwcomp said:


> I'm pretty sure that Comcast has no plans to convert the locals to H.264.


Bummer, I was actually hoping they would, since a huge portion of what I record is the broadcast channels... As long as I can't tell the difference (or if the difference is acceptable to me -- heck, I would probably record even more SD channels if they were simply 16:9, even though I can tell the difference -- and no, ZOOM doesn't really fix it since it cuts off a significant portion), I'd rather have smaller recordings -- though I'm about to upgrade one of my drives, so hopefully won't care for a year or so until I fill that one up..

Oh, and is there a way to tell _ON THE TIVO_ whether a recording is MPEG 2 or MPEG 4? Even if "indirectly"? (I presume I can via kmttg..)


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

bobdec01 said:


> Just an update on roll out here.. In the Atlanta Comcast (Xfinity) area Skip Mode showed up on my Roamio and 3 - mini's on 3/12. The mini's required a reset to show the green SM icon, the Roamio did not. Most recorded shows now have SM icon with a couple of exceptions, TNHD (841 in Atl) Major Crimes is one of them... Looks like subject of this thread has been resolved..


What? Resolved? I don't don't know if you're joking or not but skip mode still doesn't work on MPEG-4 channels.

Note for future post: Just because you have Comcast doesn't mean your channels are MPEG-4. Make sure the channel is MPEG-4 by checking the TiVo diagnostics.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

mattack said:


> Oh, and is there a way to tell _ON THE TIVO_ whether a recording is MPEG 2 or MPEG 4? Even if "indirectly"? (I presume I can via kmttg..)


You're best bet is to go the the channel is was recoded on then go to TiVo diagnostics and look for the h.264 on Video PID for the channel number.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

It's totally not resolved for mp4 channels on Comcast in the ATL, don't know what that poster is talking about. SM doesn't work on any mp4 channels.


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## bluemcduff (Sep 8, 2007)

Agreed. No Skipmode on MPEG4 channels at all.


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## bobdec01 (Jan 20, 2011)

Guess I jumped the gun, last Sat. 97% of my 125+ shows showed up with skip enabled only 4 out of the 125+ did not have SM icon. Never realized almost everything I watch is not MPEG-4. FWIW I'm happy, got what I needed from Tivo on 3/12, must have been tail end of roll out..... backing out of this thread... tough crowd here..


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

How can you tell if we have mpeg 4? I just got skip mode the last week, does that mean I'm on mpeg 4?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

schatham said:


> How can you tell if we have mpeg 4? I just got skip mode the last week, does that mean I'm on mpeg 4?


The best way to tell is to look at the diagnostics in settings. It will tell you if it is mpeg-2 or not. When you got SkipMode has no effect on what type of channels you have.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

rainwater said:


> The best way to tell is to look at the diagnostics in settings. It will tell you if it is mpeg-2 or not. When you got SkipMode has no effect on what type of channels you have.


I see it, thanks., I'm still mpeg2.


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## cmaquilino16 (Jul 7, 2009)

I live in ATL and I got skip mode on some of the locals, very weird I got a roamio pro. I just hope TiVo gets a fix for this. When it works I miss it on the other channels.


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## bluemcduff (Sep 8, 2007)

Our locals are MPEG2 and will stay that way for now. A good number of the national HD channels are MPEG4.

You'll get SkipMode on ABC, NBC, CBS, CW and FOX only of the locals which is why you'll only see it on those channels since those are among the 20 that TiVo supports for now.

That's why you're not seeing SkipMode issues on the local channels.

Update: I did some checking and of the 20 HD versions of those channels TBS HD is still MPEG2 as are the locals. The other 14 are in MPEG4.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

On Comcast here all the locals and sports channels are mpeg2, most of the cable channels are mpeg4. Kind of odd that they didn't bother with sports, I've seen no picture diff between mpeg2 and 4 even though others have said that mpeg4 is worse for action stuff.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> On Comcast here all the locals and sports channels are mpeg2, most of the cable channels are mpeg4. Kind of odd that they didn't bother with sports, I've seen no picture diff between mpeg2 and 4 even though others have said that mpeg4 is worse for action stuff.


Not inherently. Directv has been mpeg4 for years and the action stuff is excellent. And since some channels are delivering in mpeg4 now, the point is moot.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yeah sorry I meant on Comcast some folks are saying the mp4s are worse. It should be a no-brainer to go mp4 for all channels now IMO, but they have their reasons not to I guess. Perhaps it's a staged migration thing.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

bluemcduff said:


> Update: I did some checking and of the 20 HD versions of those channels TBS HD is still MPEG2 as are the locals. The other 14 are in MPEG4.


TBS HD is H.264 here.



slowbiscuit said:


> Yeah sorry I meant on Comcast some folks are saying the mp4s are worse. It should be a no-brainer to go mp4 for all channels now IMO, but they have their reasons not to I guess. Perhaps it's a staged migration thing.


I think it is likely that they have access to H.264 feeds of the converted channels. For locals, they would have to do the compression on the fly.


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## bluemcduff (Sep 8, 2007)

Interesting. I thought the conversion would be uniform across Atlanta. My area was one of the later ones to transfer over.

So that's good news in that it will be coming.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

bluemcduff said:


> Interesting. I thought the conversion would be uniform across Atlanta. My area was one of the later ones to transfer over.
> 
> So that's good news in that it will be coming.


Not if you want skip mode on that channel.

MPEG-4 is the enemy right now.


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## jpwbikes (Feb 19, 2014)

Skipmode is not working for me on AMC. Bummer, TWD is one of the few shows that I watch.

I compared TWD file size of 1.8GB to an episode of Gotham at 4GB to confirm that AMC is mpeg-4.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

jpwbikes said:


> Skipmode is not working for me on AMC. Bummer, TWD is one of the few shows that I watch.
> 
> I compared TWD file size of 1.8GB to an episode of Gotham at 4GB to confirm that AMC is mpeg-4.


Cable channels will almost always have a smaller file size then broadcast channels no matter if their mpeg-2 or 4.

The best way to tell if AMC is a MPEG-4 channel in your area is to go the TiVo diagnosis screen while your on that channel and look for h.264 on the Video PID category.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Chevelleman said:


> Cable channels will almost always have a smaller file size then broadcast channels no matter if their mpeg-2 or 4.
> 
> The best way to tell if AMC is a MPEG-4 channel in your area is to go the TiVo diagnosis screen while your on that channel and look for h.264 on the Video PID category.


While it is true that is the best way, there's no way that a 1 hour HD Mpeg2 recording is going to be only 1.8GB.


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## randian (Jan 15, 2014)

I noticed that both of the "SkipMode doesn't work with MP4" threads are in the Roamio subforum. Does this problem plague the Roamio but not the Bolt?


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

lpwcomp said:


> While it is true that is the best way, there's no way that a 1 hour HD Mpeg2 recording is going to be only 1.8GB.


I don't know AMC is known to compress there signal a ton.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

randian said:


> I noticed that both of the "SkipMode doesn't work with MP4" threads are in the Roamio subforum. Does this problem plague the Roamio but not the Bolt?


1. There's another Skipmode doesn't work with MPEG-4 thread in this subforum?

2. I don't know for sure but I'm guessing it's the same for the Bolt.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Chevelleman said:


> I don't know AMC is known to compress there signal a ton.


Not _*that*_ much. I have both MPEG-2 and H.264 recordings of "Better Call Saul". Smallest MPEG-2 is 2.97MB.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> While it is true that is the best way, there's no way that a 1 hour HD Mpeg2 recording is going to be only 1.8GB.


Sure it can. Over the last fifteen years of recording HD content, I've even seen hour long SD MPEG2 recordings exceed the size of hour long HD MPEG2 recordings. Of course that it not the norm. But it can happen.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> Sure it can. Over the last fifteen years of recording HD content, I've even seen hour long SD MPEG2 recordings exceed the size of hour long HD MPEG2 recordings. Of course that it not the norm. But it can happen.


How exactly have you been recording HD content for "15 years"?

In any case, you have seen 720P or better content have a 1 hour recording be < 2GB?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> How exactly have you been recording HD content for "15 years"?
> 
> In any case, you have seen 720P or better content have a 1 hour recording be < 2GB?


Since 2001 when I got a couple of HiPix cards(Telemann DTV-200) to record OTA HD content. Then in 2004 the first HD TiVos arrived with DirecTv so I had stopped using my HiPix cards by the time the S3 TiVos came out in 2006.(I sold them for $200 each in 2005 to a company that was using them for testing some application)


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> Since 2001 when I got a couple of HiPix cards(Telemann DTV-200) to record OTA HD content. Then in 2004 the first HD TiVos arrived with DirecTv so I had stopped using my HiPix cards by the time the S3 TiVos came out in 2006.


The more important question was the second one.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> The more important question was the second one.


Yes I've seen a hour of 720P/1080i use under 2GB at some point. It looked like crap. Something was messed up with the channel at that point.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> Yes I've seen a hour of 720P/1080i use under 2GB at some point. It looked like crap. Something was messed up with the channel at that point.


So I need to modify my statement to read - Unless there's something screwed up on the channel, there's no way that an hour of HD MPEG-2 content is going to be only 1.8GB.

Edit: received OTA or via cable/satellite.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

lpwcomp said:


> So I need to modify my statement to read - Unless there's something screwed up on the channel, there's no way that an hour of HD MPEG-2 content is going to be only 1.8GB.
> 
> Edit: received OTA or via cable/satellite.


Well, it is possible. When I had TWC, there were a few channels that would be close to 2GBs for an hour recording because of the massive compression.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> So I need to modify my statement to read - Unless there's something screwed up on the channel, there's no way that an hour of HD MPEG-2 content is going to be only 1.8GB.
> 
> Edit: received OTA or via cable/satellite.


I think the OTA channels were messed up. While the cable channels I've seen like that were not by accident.

I rarely check the size any more. Like I used to years ago. If the recording looks like crap I'll just switch to a streaming service to watch the episode from. There are so many options now.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

Sooooo how about that MPEG-4 screwing up Skip mode.


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## rgreenpc (Mar 10, 2004)

My wife is in love with the skip functionality, I really hope they can deal with this. I know Comcast in my area is making the mpeg-4 move early Q2. 

This was the one thing I missed when we left WMC for Tivo.


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## jpwbikes (Feb 19, 2014)

Any word from TiVo on this?


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

jpwbikes said:


> Any word from TiVo on this?


Not yet. I'll bug them again.


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## RFEngineer (Oct 30, 2006)

Comcast moved their channel line-up to MPEG-4 about a month after skip-mode became available on my Roamio Pro. Just enough time for my wife to become thoroughly enamored with the functionality that we no longer have. Thank you Comcast / Tivo for making this happen.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I don't have MPEG-4, but just poor SM. I was looking around and found this:

Encoding.com strives to integrate our closed captioning software seamlessly with your existing workflow. You can fully specify your closed caption workflow in the instructions you send to our system, so you have complete flexibility. Other software packages and services make assumptions about closed caption workflows. The problem with this approach is you run the risk of making inaccurate assumptions. For example, one cloud-based service currently on the market will automatically copy analog captions (if present in the source video) into an MP4 output file. This output is useless in the real world for several reasons:

Most mobile devices (laptops, tablets and phones) dont have the decoder all flat screens use to display closed caption tracks.
MPEG-4 standard specifies subtitles instead of closed captions. Thats why iOS devices expect the standard MPEG-4 Part 17 subtitles in an MP4 file.
Video players in Android devices require sidecars (SRT files, mostly).
Browser-based players generally require sidecar files to display closed captions for the same reason. It is possible to add analog closed captions to an MP4, but it is also pointless.
HTML5 video requires the use of the WebVTT format with use of the track element and can also use text descriptions, chapters for content navigation, and time-aligned metadata for with audio or video content.

Automating such an irregular workflow wastes resources, confuses customers, slows things down and can upset project managers. Thats why we decided to enable customers to specify how to process their closed captions workflow with our API.

http://www.encoding.com/closed-captioning/


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

JoeKustra said:


> I don't have MPEG-4, but just poor SM. I was looking around and found this:
> 
> MPEG-4 standard specifies subtitles instead of closed captions. Thats why iOS devices expect the standard MPEG-4 Part 17 subtitles in an MP4 file.


I wonder if that's why SM doesn't work on MPEG4. Seems like it would be rather short-sighted of TiVo not to know this information though.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

keenanSR said:


> I wonder if that's why SM doesn't work on MPEG4. Seems like it would be rather short-sighted of TiVo not to know this information though.


I don't know. I was just curious about closed captions and found that stuff by accident.


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

JoeKustra said:


> I don't know. I was just curious about closed captions and found that stuff by accident.


It's my understanding that SkipMode works by keying off the closed captions so if MPEG4 data doesn't use those then that might explain the lack of SM on MPEG4. Dan would probably know the answer. Comcast in the SF bay area is switching over to MPEG4 delivery right now but so far it looks like only 1 channel has been switched, a channel that doesn't get SM anyway.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

H.264 recordings do have closed captions:



Spoiler



File: Name : C:\kmttgmpegs\The Magicians.S01E13.Have You Brought Me Little Cakes.ts
Size : 1.827 GB
Duration : 01:09:47.02
Mux type : TS Stream
TS mux rate : 12.330 Mbps
Video: Encoding : H.264
VideoStreamID : x1020
Frame rate : 29.97 fps
Encoding size : 1920 x 1080
Aspect ratio : 16:9
Header bit rate : 20.000 Mbps
VBV buffer : 380 KBytes
Profile : High/4.0
 Progressive : Interlaced
Chroma : 4:2:0
Entropy mode : CABAC
Bit rate : 2.983 Mbps
*Captioning : EIA 608/708*
Audio Stream: 1 (Primary) Codec : AC3
Format : AC3 stream
Channels : 5.1
Language : eng
PID : x1021
PES Stream Id : xBD
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Sampling rate : 48000
Sample size : 16 bits



Lest you think it is due to it being in a ts container:


Spoiler



File: Name : D:\Video\To NAS\The Magicians.S01E13.Have You Brought Me Little Cakes.mp4
Size : 1.057 GB
Duration : 00:43:39.21
Mux type : MP4
Video: Encoding : H.264
VideoStreamID : x201
Frame rate : 29.97 fps
Encoding size : 1920 x 1080
Aspect ratio : 16:9
Header bit rate : 20.000 Mbps
VBV buffer : 380 KBytes
Profile : High/4.0
Progressive : Interlaced
Chroma : 4:2:0
Entropy mode : CABAC
Bit rate : 2.731 Mbps
*Captioning : EIA 608/708*
Audio Stream: 1 (Primary) Codec : AC3
Format : AC3 stream
Channels : 5.1
Language : eng
PID : x202
PES Stream Id : xBD
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Sampling rate : 48000
Sample size : 16 bits


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

That must not be the problem then.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

H.264 can carry captions, so I don't think that's the issue. I think seeking is probably the biggest issue with H.264. Although here in the US they don't seem to get to crazy with the GOP structure. I've seen some insane files come from Europe.


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## MeStinkBAD (Jul 16, 2003)

jeffshome said:


> I have Comcast in Atlanta and the MPEG-4 channels (HGTV, A&E, SYFY, USA, etc.) do not have Skip Mode.


Those are basic cable and thus are most likely MPEG-2 not MPEG-4. They are where I live. I have a Series 3 TiVo which does not support MPEG-4 at all and I still see those. I'd say the more obscure networks Most MPEG-4 channels appear to be stations like GVCHD and some of the premium channels (Showtime-Extreme, Starz-Kids).

Skip Mode requires information fetched from TiVo to function properly right? I'd suspect the issue is the data needed to allow skip mode on these stations is for whatever reason unavailable.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

TiVo Sarah replied back that they are still working on the issue after asking for an update.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

MeStinkBAD said:


> Those are basic cable and thus are most likely MPEG-2 not MPEG-4. They are where I live. I have a Series 3 TiVo which does not support MPEG-4 at all and I still see those. I'd say the more obscure networks Most MPEG-4 channels appear to be stations like GVCHD and some of the premium channels (Showtime-Extreme, Starz-Kids).
> 
> Skip Mode requires information fetched from TiVo to function properly right? I'd suspect the issue is the data needed to allow skip mode on these stations is for whatever reason unavailable.


You're wrong. Comcast moved most non-local HD channels in Atlanta and other locales to MPEG-4.


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## MeStinkBAD (Jul 16, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> You're wrong. Comcast moved most non-local HD channels in Atlanta and other locales to MPEG-4.


Maybe I am wrong. I do not live in Atlanta. But how can you you be sure which channels are encoded with MPEG-2 vs. MPEG-4? Is there a list somewhere that tells you? Does your unit tell you?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

MeStinkBAD said:


> Maybe I am wrong. I do not live in Atlanta. But how can you you be sure which channels are encoded with MPEG-2 vs. MPEG-4? Is there a list somewhere that tells you? Does your unit tell you?


Settings, TiVo box Diagnostics. The VID indicates MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 while on a channel for each tuner. I don't know if those are the only options or if they are correct or what it indicates when it's not something in the table of possible values.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> Settings, TiVo box Diagnostics. The VID indicates MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 while on a channel for each tuner. I don't know if those are the only options or if they are correct or what it indicates when it's not something in the table of possible values.


Close. It's actually either MPEG2 or H.264.

There's also the fact that when I transfer a recording to my computer that was recorded from an H.264 channel, it is indeed H.264.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

lpwcomp said:


> You're wrong. Comcast moved most non-local HD channels in Atlanta and other locales to MPEG-4.


Correct - all non-sports, non-local HD channels are now mpeg4. I am curious as to why they didn't do the sports channels given that I see no pic difference on any of the cable channels they did convert, even with action shows.

This means that for me, SM appears on very few shows since most of what we watch is on non-local channels.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Correct - all non-sports, non-local HD channels are now mpeg4. I am curious as to why they didn't do the sports channels given that I see no pic difference on any of the cable channels they did convert, even with action shows. This means that for me, SM appears on very few shows since most of what we watch is on non-local channels.


Even odder considering ESPN is delivering mpeg4 these days.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Even odder considering ESPN is delivering mpeg4 these days.


Really odd in that the last time I checked, ESPN is still MPEG2 on Atlanta Comcast.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

lpwcomp said:


> Really odd in that the last time I checked, ESPN is still MPEG2 on Atlanta Comcast.


ESPN switched to MPEG-4 almost 5 years ago on their end. Obviously Comcast is only providing mpeg-2 for now. It is strange they didn't at least switch the ESPN channels as they can get a direct MPEG-4 feed from ESPN.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

OH MAN! Comcast just switched my local CBS station to MPEG-4. Well Skip mode was fun while it lasted. Back to 30 second skip for me.  

If a TiVo programmer is reading this please get on fixing the MPEG-4 problem.


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

Chevelleman said:


> OH MAN! Comcast just switched my local CBS station to MPEG-4. Well Skip mode was fun while it lasted. Back to 30 second skip for me.
> 
> If a TiVo programmer is reading this please get on fixing the MPEG-4 problem.


What market? Adding a location by your username is often very helpful.


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

keenanSR said:


> What market? Adding a location by your username is often very helpful.


Chevelleman: Portland, OR


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Chevelleman said:


> OH MAN! Comcast just switched my local CBS station to MPEG-4. Well Skip mode was fun while it lasted. Back to 30 second skip for me.
> 
> If a TiVo programmer is reading this please get on fixing the MPEG-4 problem.


Where are you located? This is the first I've heard of them switching a local broadcast channel to H.264.


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> Where are you located? This is the first I've heard of them switching a local broadcast channel to H.264.


Chevelleman: Portland, OR


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

kokishin said:


> Chevelleman: Portland, OR


Sorry! Correct I'm in the Portland region. So far only cbs switched but I'm watching carefully.


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

lpwcomp said:


> Where are you located? This is the first I've heard of them switching a local broadcast channel to H.264.


Yes, that's why I was wondering about the location. I thought they were going to leave the local channels at MPEG2.


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

keenanSR said:


> Yes, that's why I was wondering about the location. I thought they were going to leave the local channels at MPEG2.


Separately, I thought Comcast was going to change more than one or two non-local channels to H.264 in the SF Bay Area. So far, the only one I can see in H.264 is "OWN". Apparently Oprah carries more weight or eats more bandwidth than most.  I guess HSC (www.halted.com/) ran out of H.264 encoders.


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

kokishin said:


> Separately, I thought Comcast was going to change more than one or two non-local channels to H.264 in the SF Bay Area. So far, the only one I can see in H.264 is "OWN". Apparently Oprah carries more weight or eats more bandwidth than most.  I guess HSC (www.halted.com/) ran out of H.264 encoders.


Yes, it seems to be rather slow going, and I'm sure the folks at HSC can cobble something together for Comcast to use!


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

keenanSR said:


> Yes, that's why I was wondering about the location. I thought they were going to leave the local channels at MPEG2.


Unless it was a mistake, it doesn't look that way now.


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## alleybj (Dec 6, 2000)

I just noticed that most MPEG-4 channels are now showing skip mode available on most recorded shows, apparently just within the last couple of weeks. Im in Atlanta and almost all non-local channels are now MPEG-4


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

alleybj said:


> I just noticed that most MPEG-4 channels are now showing skip mode available on most recorded shows, apparently just within the last couple of weeks. Im in Atlanta and almost all non-local channels are now MPEG-4


Do you have a specific example because I'm not seeing it here? And slight correction - only HD channels were moved to H.264. Relevant to this, I record "Vikings" from both an SD (52) channel and the HD channel (852). The most recent episode had "SKIP" on the SD recording but not on the HD recording.


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## alleybj (Dec 6, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> Do you have a specific example because I'm not seeing it here? And slight correction - only HD channels were moved to H.264. Relevant to this, I record "Vikings" from both an SD (52) channel and the HD channel (852). The most recent episode had "SKIP" on the SD recording but not on the HD recording.


 It looks like everything that's been recorded on those 20 channels since approximately the beginning of April, with the exception of unreal on lifetime so for example I've got stitchers and shadow hunters on freeform, I've got the Americans and the people against OJ on FX, I've got better call Saul on AMC and I've got the magicians on sci-fi. Each one has the last one to three episodes, depending on the date, but everything in April so far has the skip sign and I've checked a couple and it works.


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## alleybj (Dec 6, 2000)

alleybj said:


> It looks like everything that's been recorded on those 20 channels since approximately the beginning of April, with the exception of unreal on lifetime so for example I've got stitchers and shadow hunters on freeform, I've got the Americans and the people against OJ on FX, I've got better call Saul on AMC and I've got the magicians on sci-fi. Each one has the last one to three episodes, depending on the date, but everything in April so far has the skip sign and I've checked a couple and it works.


 I forgot to reiterate that all of those channels have been switched to MPEG-4, and I double checked a couple of them just to make sure that they are still MPEG-4, and they are.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

alleybj said:


> I forgot to reiterate that all of those channels have been switched to MPEG-4, and I double checked a couple of them just to make sure that they are still MPEG-4, and they are.


Can you take a picture and post it of the TiVo diagnostics showing both the channel # and video PID.

I hope you understand my skepticism I just don't see how you're the only one who has skip mode working on mpeg-4 channels unless TiVo pushed in update only to your region fixing it.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

MPEG-4 update: looks like all my ESPN channels have all switched to MPEG-4. My local CBS is still MPEG-4 but the rest of my locals are still MPEG-2.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

I have yet to get skip mode on anything recorded from an H.264 channel. That includes SYFYHD, USAHD, TNTHD, AMCHD, HSTRYHD, LifetimeHD, BravoHD and FreeformHD.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Chevelleman said:


> Can you take a picture and post it of the TiVo diagnostics showing both the channel # and video PID.
> 
> I hope you understand my skepticism I just don't see how you're the only one who has skip mode working on mpeg-4 channels unless TiVo pushed in update only to your region fixing it.


And the info for the recording showing they were recorded on those channels and have the "SKIP" flag.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

lpwcomp said:


> Do you have a specific example because I'm not seeing it here? And slight correction - only HD channels were moved to H.264. Relevant to this, I record "Vikings" from both an SD (52) channel and the HD channel (852). The most recent episode had "SKIP" on the SD recording but not on the HD recording.


This morning I recorded both the SD and HD recordings of S4 E5 of Vikings. The HD channel has SM, the SD channel did not. Just file away for the future. I guess it doesn't prove anything. Both are MPEG2.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Chevelleman said:


> OH MAN! Comcast just switched my local CBS station to MPEG-4.


So what's the average size of an hour long HD recording now?


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

mattack said:


> So what's the average size of an hour long HD recording now?


It went from 6.6 GB to 4.26 GB on CBS.


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## TiVoSupport_Sarah (Mar 30, 2015)

Good Morning TiVo Community,
I apologize for the issues everyone is having with Skipmode & MPEG4 channels.
We are aware of the issues and we are investigating why it is happening and working on getting it resolved asap.
Can I get those of you who are having the issue to PM me your TSN of the box being affected as well as a detailed description of the core issue,your cable provider & some of the channels affected.
Thank You.


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

TiVoSupport_Sarah said:


> Good Morning TiVo Community,
> I apologize for the issues everyone is having with Skipmode & MPEG4 channels.
> We are aware of the issues and we are investigating why it is happening and working on getting it resolved asap.
> Can I get those of you who are having the issue to PM me your TSN of the box being affected as well as a detailed description of the core issue,your cable provider & some of the channels affected.
> Thank You.


It's off-topic for this thread, but any update on the audio dropout issue many of us have been having?

Thanks


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

TiVoSupport_Sarah said:


> Good Morning TiVo Community,
> I apologize for the issues everyone is having with Skipmode & MPEG4 channels.
> We are aware of the issues and we are investigating why it is happening and working on getting it resolved asap.
> Can I get those of you who are having the issue to PM me your TSN of the box being affected as well as a detailed description of the core issue,your cable provider & some of the channels affected.
> Thank You.


Thanks!


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

TiVoSupport_Sarah said:


> Good Morning TiVo Community,
> I apologize for the issues everyone is having with Skipmode & MPEG4 channels.
> We are aware of the issues and we are investigating why it is happening and working on getting it resolved asap.
> Can I get those of you who are having the issue to PM me your TSN of the box being affected as well as a detailed description of the core issue,your cable provider & some of the channels affected.
> Thank You.


Sarah,

Your avatar is old, the new one is the flat one where MR. Tivo is no longer facing you, he's facing the other way from you with his feet 180 degress (looks like he's peeing)


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## jpwbikes (Feb 19, 2014)

Anyone know if 20.6.1 has a fix for this?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Supposed to.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

slowbiscuit said:


> Supposed to.


Really?!? Don't tease me.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Chevelleman said:


> Really?!? Don't tease me.


Semi confirmed rumor.

Read the comments.

http://zatznotfunny.com/2016-04/tivo-bolt-ooh-streaming/


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

https://support.tivo.com/articles/Essential_Summary/TiVo-Software-Version-Information

Supposed to be fixed in 20.6.1.RC4


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

JoeKustra said:


> https://support.tivo.com/articles/Essential_Summary/TiVo-Software-Version-Information
> 
> Supposed to be fixed in 20.6.1.RC4


And nothing about the audio dropout problem, and it's been 2(3?) releases now and nothing. It starting to seem that it's something that's just never going to be fixed, or it's something that will be fixed in newer hardware, if there even is any new hardware.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

keenanSR said:


> And nothing about the audio dropout problem, and it's been 2(3?) releases now and nothing. It starting to seem that it's something that's just never going to be fixed, or it's something that will be fixed in newer hardware, if there even is any new hardware.


I noticed. I'm not happy.


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

JoeKustra said:


> I noticed. I'm not happy.


Yeah, I'm not either, to the point that I'll never buy another TiVo unless I hear conclusive evidence that the problem has been fixed.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> https://support.tivo.com/articles/Essential_Summary/TiVo-Software-Version-Information
> 
> Supposed to be fixed in 20.6.1.RC4


I may know tonight. If "Stitchers" has SKIP, then it is fixed. It's absence of course doesn't mean it hasn't been.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

lpwcomp said:


> I may know tonight. If "Stitchers" has SKIP, then it is fixed. It's absence of course doesn't mean it hasn't been.


As a control, I've set it to record also.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

Good news folks!!!! I recorded House Hunters on HGTV HD last night and it did have the Skip mode icon next to it for the first time ever for me. I have not tested yet if it actually works yet but as soon as I get home I'll update you all.

The bad news: Old MPEG-4 stuff(before the update) didn't get skip mode.


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## jeffshome (Jan 4, 2002)

This is on the Bolt  I received software version 20.6.1 and now I'm receiving skip mode on the MPEG-4 channels  example HGTV and AMC. Looks like TiVo may have found a solution.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

"Stitchers" has SKIP, so they appear to have fixed it.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

Yep! Totally confirmed TiVo has totally fixed the problem. 

Thanks TiVo engineers!!!


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## wco81 (Dec 28, 2001)

Why do some recordings have skip while others don't?

For instance Agents of SHIELD did not have skip but Night Manager does, both recorded Tuesday night on Comcast.

Local ABC is not MPEG4 but AMC HD is?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

lpwcomp said:


> "Stitchers" has SKIP, so they appear to have fixed it.


Worked on MPEG-2 also.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

wco81 said:


> Why do some recordings have skip while others don't?
> 
> For instance Agents of SHIELD did not have skip but Night Manager does, both recorded Tuesday night on Comcast.
> 
> Local ABC is not MPEG4 but AMC HD is?


In some regions caption issues can cause a program to not get skip mode. Agents had skip mode for me.


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## wco81 (Dec 28, 2001)

That's annoying that it's so inconsistent.


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## elborak (Jul 15, 2014)

Blame your local affiliate. If they do something that cuts out some of the CC info (e.g. run a local commercial too long and miss a few seconds after a break), TiVo won't match for Skip Mode to work.


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