# EBAY &, lifetime subs



## microbe (Nov 23, 2002)

Hi all,
The big white haired bloke in a red suit being imminantly due, I was wondering about the numerous Tivos beinlg sold on Ebay with a lifetime sub. I've had mine for 5 years now, on £10 a month sub (yes, yes, I know already!). Ive upgraded HD, Cachecard, mode 0 and so on and was wondering if I bought one of the lifetimers, basic and un-modded, or even faulty, could I just swap my HD and Cachecard into the lifetimer and have the lifetime sub that way? Or would I need to involve Tivo Cust services to transfer the sub if, for the sake of arguement, the Ebay purchase with lifetime sub happened to suffer some form of terminal error forcing a non-existant replacement option on CS?
I could then sell on the miraculously cured old (my original) Tivo.

Any coherent and justified thoughts or helpful advice on the subject?


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Not a good idea to deliberately purchase a faulty machine IMHO 

However, as long as what you buy has a genuine lifetime sub (ask the seller to tell you the TiVo Service number, then ring TiVo CS yourself to check before bidding) and is the same software version as your machine you will have no problem at all swapping the drives. If the software version is different then you will have some fun & games 

You should indeed ask the seller to inform TiVo he/she has sold the box and you can then call to register yourself as the new owner. This will be important if the box later fails and you want to beg TiVo CS to transfer the lifetime sub to your old 'spare' machine.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

Remember the subscription goes with the machine and not the discs etc.

The lifetime sub is the lifetime of the machine - and TiVo CS do not have to transfer it.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

blindlemon said:


> However, as long as what you buy has a genuine lifetime sub (ask the seller to tell you the TiVo Service number, then ring TiVo CS yourself to check before bidding)


I'd really advise sellers NOT to disclose the service number before bidding. 
These things can be cloned...

Best just to ask if he is the registered owner of the tivo,
so any transfer could go smoothly.

Even if he isn't the registered owner (lifrtime tivos change hands often without the details being updated) - all that means is you can't transfer it to another tivo - it will still work fine for getting guide data from that box.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

If he's selling it why would he care if it got cloned? 

I would not buy a TiVo advertised as having a lifetime sub unless the seller gave me the information I need to check it with TiVo CS.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

blindlemon said:


> If he's selling it why would he care if it got cloned?


Cloned sub = 2 (or more) tivos dialling in with the same serial.
Tivo at any point will kill that serial's sub and hence kill both/all including the original.

You might not think that's a risk.. I do.


> I would not buy a TiVo advertised as having a lifetime sub unless the seller gave me the information I need to check it with TiVo CS.


In practice as I said above, many lifetime subs have passed through different people without the contact details being updated anyway. It doesn't make the sub worth any less IMO.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Cloned sub = 2 (or more) tivos dialling in with the same serial.
> Tivo at any point will kill that serial's sub and hence kill both/all including the original.


He's sold it by then though - so what does he care?


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

My point exactly.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> He's sold it by then though - so what does he care?


A guy who doesn't end up buying your Tivo but is given the Tivo Service Number to check it is legitimate can still clone it and then the legitimate buyer is potentially screwed if Tivo then ends their Lifetime sub due to two Tivos dialling up. The only safe way is to only disclose a Service Number to a winning bidder after the auction closes but before they pay. Even then make sure they are someone with quite a few good feedbacks so don't want to have their record tarnished by bad feedback.

In practice rumour has it there there are quite a few cloned Series 1 machines now out there due to the insecure technology used in the S1 and that Tivo may not care as it is longer selling Series 1's in the UK or USA. However this is not the kind of thing that can possibly be either encouraged or condoned in this forum.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> A guy who doesn't end up buying your Tivo but is given the Tivo Service Number to check it is legitimate can still clone it and then the legitimate buyer is potentially screwed


I'd rather take the (very remote) risk of that happening than not check that the lifetime sub is genuine before bidding.

After all, even if it did happen, you would have purchased the TiVo from the legitimate previous owner, who would have phoned TiVo CS to cancel his/her account and you would have the machine (normally with the right TSN on the while label at the back) and your evidence of purchase (ie. your eBay and payment transaction details).


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Pete77 said:


> A guy who doesn't end up buying your Tivo but is given the Tivo Service Number to check it is legitimate can still clone it and then the legitimate buyer is potentially screwed if Tivo then ends their Lifetime sub due to two Tivos dialling up. The only safe way is to only disclose a Service Number to a winning bidder after the auction closes but before they pay. Even then make sure they are someone with quite a few good feedbacks so don't want to have their record tarnished by bad feedback.
> 
> In practice rumour has it there there are quite a few cloned Series 1 machines now out there due to the insecure technology used in the S1 and that Tivo may not care as it is longer selling Series 1's in the UK or USA. However this is not the kind of thing that can possibly be either encouraged or condoned in this forum.


I think TCM and blindlemon are saying that, once the tivo is sold, it ceases to be the seller's problem. Not that it can't be done.

The seller no longer has any interest in the tivo, so giving the SN is not "unsafe"


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## cleudo (Apr 7, 2002)

unsafe - no, unscrupulous - possibly.

no way would i give that info out to any tom dick or harry - it wouldn't be fair to the (eventual) buyer.

Have to agree with Pete on this one...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

And also what if you change your mind about selling the Tivo because it doesn't reach your Reserve price?

Then you could find that you are the one who directly suffers the consequences of disclosing the Service Number.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

cleudo said:


> no way would i give that info out to any tom dick or harry - it wouldn't be fair to the (eventual) buyer.


OK, so how would you convince me (as a potential buyer) that your TiVo truly does have a genuine lifetime sub then?

Screenshots are worthless. Electronic copies of the "welcome" letter can be faked in 30 seconds in photoshop.... TiVo CS won't talk to anybody except the "account holder" unless that person has the TSN - and then they will only say "yes" or "no" to whether it has a lifetime sub, nothing else.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree the risk is there (albeit very small). But unless one party takes a risk there is a stalemate and no sale. As the person who would be parting with my money I for one wouldn't take that risk, so unless the seller tells me the TSN I won't bid.


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## cleudo (Apr 7, 2002)

Well, it's no different to describing any other electronic device that you're selling. 

eg. amount of memory in an ipod, innards of a pc, engine under the bonnet of a car etc etc. 

There's always a fundamental risk in an online sale for anything that you can't physically inspect before you buy.

But disclosing the service number (I think) is akin to giving the inherent value away for free.

I bet (for instance) you wouldn't be too keen to reply to this with a .jpg of your service number for us all to inspect and verify ;-)


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> OK, so how would you convince me (as a potential buyer) that your TiVo truly does have a genuine lifetime sub then?
> 
> Screenshots are worthless. Electronic copies of the "welcome" letter can be faked in 30 seconds in photoshop.... TiVo CS won't talk to anybody except the "account holder" unless that person has the TSN - and then they will only say "yes" or "no" to whether it has a lifetime sub, nothing else.


But what is to stop the seller giving you a Service Number of some other Tivo they know of that has a Lifetime Sub and not the one they are selling?

If a seller wants to defraud you on Ebay they can but if you only use sellers who use Paypal and with a good amount of positive feedback over a long time span and do not bid over the Paypal protection level for that seller then you still have come back if things go wrong. I can vouch for this because I disputed a purchase and got a refund because the seller was too busy to go through all the form filling required to continue arguing his case.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

mikerr said:


> Cloned sub = 2 (or more) tivos dialling in with the same serial.
> Tivo at any point will kill that serial's sub and hence kill both/all including the original.
> 
> You might not think that's a risk.. I do.
> ...


I know of someone using 3 tivo's on the same service number, they have been doing this for about 2 years and all still ok.

Also I think after a PM on here someone has been selling lifetime Tivo's on ebay as lifetime and the service number on the board and viewed via system info does not match the rear...

It is very very wrong, but happens with no issue..

If I was selling a lifetime, I would not give the service number until after the auction has finished, to both protect myself, and the buyer,.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

cleudo said:


> I bet (for instance) you wouldn't be too keen to reply to this with a .jpg of your service number for us all to inspect and verify ;-)


But I'm not _selling_ my TiVo...


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> If a seller wants to defraud you on Ebay they can but if you only use sellers who use Paypal and with a good amount of positive feedback over a long time span and do not bid over the Paypal protection level for that seller then you still have come back if things go wrong.


True, but having experienced PayPal's dispute procedure on a couple of occasions, I'd rather just bid on machines where I can verify the sub first!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> True, but having experienced PayPal's dispute procedure on a couple of occasions, I'd rather just bid on machines where I can verify the sub first!


You can still only verify if that Tivo Service Number has a Lifetime Sub and not if the seller you are buying it from didn't previously buy it from someone else but then failed to have it transferred in to their name by Tivo customer services (as has frequently happened due to ignorance and poor communication).

If it is not in their name then even though it is a legitimate Lifetime Sub you may still not be able to get it transferred in to your name so that you can then talk directly to Tivo customer services as a supported Tivo customer.

Unless the seller can also show documentation to prove they are the only and original owner or that the sub was legitimately transferred to them by the original owner then you are still taking a risk.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

You have to be careful as a seller because there are buyers out there who will cheerfully lie about whether the goods work or not... oh hang on, wrong thread.


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Can CS verify the legitimacy from other means - I'm away from home at the moment and can't check, but ISTR a second number (S/N) on the label.

Might be going mad, however.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Yes - the account number, but they will only disclose information derived from the account number to the account holder! The TSN can be used to look up the service status on a separate system not related to the account.


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## PPJ (Jun 26, 2002)

cleudo said:


> There's always a fundamental risk in an online sale for anything that you can't physically inspect before you buy.


Spot on! How do you know for sure that the seller even has a TiVO and isn't simply going to take your money and disappear. Come to think of it, wouldn't that be a much easier way of scamming a buyer? In my opinion, getting hung up on the particular issue of whether the TiVO has a genuine lifetime sub is pointless.

There is an inherent risk in buying anything on Ebay. All you can do is exercise the usual caution. Is the seller's feedback good (and does it look genuine)? Can you pay by Paypal? Could you possibly pick it up in person?

By all means ask for the service number, but it would be quite reasonable for a genuine seller to refuse to disclose this, for the reasons already stated. I certainly would.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PPJ said:


> . Is the seller's feedback good (and does it look genuine)? Can you pay by Paypal?


Indeed if the seller's feedback is generally good and 100 or more and this is over a good long period (a couple of years or more) and PayPal protection covers the value of the transaction then it is very unlikely he is going to rip you off. If feedback is zero and he will only accept payment by cheque or postal order then Buyer Beware!.



> By all means ask for the service number, but it would be quite reasonable for a genuine seller to refuse to disclose this, for the reasons already stated. I certainly would.


Even if they give you a Service Number that reveals the machine has a Lifetime Sub it will still won't cover the issue that if they are a second or subsequent owner the machine may still not be registered in their name and so the sub may not be able to be transferred in to your name. The sub will still work but life would be more difficult if you ever directly needed the support of Tivo Customer Services over a data download failure or upgrading the software to Version 2.5.5a required with some more modern tvs. Also the sub could even have been cloned and if Tivo has a purge on cloned subs might suddenly stop working. As you could not give the name or the address of the original sub owner you would then have no rights.

So actually not only do you need the Tivo Service Number but also a copy of the original Lifetime Sub letter to that owner at the Paypal address you are paying after winning the auction but before paying them if you want to be near to 100% sure of there being no problem.


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> if you want to be near to 100% sure of there being no problem.


But I think that's what's being discussed - 100% isn't likely, so what level of risk are people prepared to take?

In your case, plenty.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> So actually not only do you need the Tivo Service Number but also a copy of the original Lifetime Sub letter to that owner at the Paypal address you are paying after winning the auction but before paying them if you want to be near to 100% sure of there being no problem.


 Not sure I could lay my hands on that much information and the address wouldn't match as I've moved since then.
The only way to be absolutely sure is to buy an unsubbed machine and buy your own lifetime subscription from Tivo. Not sure that the risk/reward wraps up there 

Tivos used to sell through on www.avforums.com and there is a greater expectation of honesty there than other online market places. I've bought and sold high value items which I would never have done at the bay including a £1500 projector.


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