# Proposal for a collaborative TiVoWeb module



## d33mb33 (May 13, 2004)

Hi all

In the Highlights thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=285228) there has been a bit of discussion about a collaborative recommendations system for us TiVo users. The system would allow us to flag up our favourite shows and recommend them to others. In turn, we would get other user's recommendations and benefit from being notified of shows that we would otherwise have missed.

The only attempt at this I've seen before is the TivoTokens module. But the TivoTokens module stopped short at being a fully collaborative system because you shared your recommendations with specific contacts, not the community as a whole.

I have been thinking that another way this could be approached is as an extension to the Highlights module..

The proposed extension would prompt you to submit all or part of your ToDo list. This data would be posted anonymously to a shared server. The server would issue each user with an anonymous id for tracking purposes (no personal or identifying info involved). By searching the data, we could share the obvious "Most recorded programmes" list. But the real value would come from using the anonymous id to provide personalised lists for each user. For example, it would be a reasonably straightforward to implement an Amazon style recommendations list e.g. "Users who record your shows also record these shows.." and provide functions to filter out shows you already record... e.g. "Most popular programmes that you don't already record".

This isn't actually too difficult a task as a lot of the framework to enable this already exists. However, collaborative systems usually support Metcalfe's law ("the more people who use something, the more valuable it becomes") so it is only really worth doing this if there are a number of you out there who would really use a system like this.

Let me know what you think.


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## BobBlueUK (Jan 4, 2002)

I've long been a fan of both TiVoTokens and your Highlights module, as discussed in the other thread. Whether the collaborative functionality was built into Highlights or a separate module in its own right I'd definitely be a keen participant!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

I quite like the idea of "Amazon style recommendations list e.g. Users who record your shows also record these shows" but I wonder how useful it will actually be in practice unless a very high percentage of the UK Tivocommunity members who use Highlights agree to participate. Amazon obviously has the advantage of just the odd million or two customers ordering from them.

One thing I do notice on here is that although we are all bound together by a common passion for watching certain television programs and our love of a high tech and modifiable gadget that actually works in amazing ways to get the job done we still do seem to have very different program viewing tastes.

For instance many members here frequently refer to various latest popular US hit series on Sky One that they think are fantastic but that I have no interest in at all. Instead I am keener on a variety of eclectic fare such as Bremner, Bird and Fortune, Formula One Racing, Doctor Who and also perhaps macabre but I find utterly gripping stuff like every episode of things like Air Crash Investigation, Seconds From Disaster and Crash Files which may well not be to the tastes of those who like to watch The Simpsons and Son of The Beach (an unbelievably weird show which my Tivo keeps picking up as a Suggestion if I happen not to be in bed around 4am).

So I think it could be fun to at least try but wonder whether the output of the reaearch will lead us to find new programs we might have missed or not? One problem I have is since your Highlights model I already find myself setting up Season Passes to all sorts of new BBC series like the new one on the Nazi trials at Nuremberg but which I then find I fall further and further behind on ever having the time to watch............................................

Although I think your Highlights module is utterly brilliant and now so good that you really could sell it commercially in conjunction with the Radio Times if Murdoch had backed Tivo and not Sky+/Sky HD I suspect that the new features for Highlights you suggest may be more of a minority taste that will inevitably appeal to a data geek like me but perhaps not to everyone else. And if only us data and stats minded geeks participate then will we pick up an entirely representative selection of UK Tivocommunity viewer choices?


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

As you say, for this sort of thing to work well, you need a large number of people to participate as, for it to work correctly it needs to be able to cross-reference different viewing tastes and habits. 

Interestingly, the recommendations system in the States does use this kind of system - the data is gathered during the daily calls and recommendations are then made based on past viewing and also on what other people with similar viewing habits have watched and are likely to want to see. 

Although the UK TiVo is capable of doing this, I don't believe it's ever been implemented. The UK model only uses the individual's past viewing/thumbs behaviour and nobody else's.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

I think the UK Tivo Suggestions algorithm might work better if one could exclude certain categories of programs like for instance News bulletin programs which Suggestions has a distressing habit of trying to record due to my interest in politics and current affairs programs which are closely correlated as a type.

At present the only way round this is to give most news bulletins one thumbs down but that wrongly gives Suggestions the impression I may be rather unkeen on current affairs as a program class. Having said that my two or three thumbs up for Formula One and motor sport programs do seem to cancel out my three thumbs down for various football programs so that the Tivo does pick up motor sport programs of various kinds as Suggestions but always avoids footbal. I notice though that it never spontaneously records any other sport with Suggestions but then I haven't given three or even two thumbs up to any other sports programs.

I suppose what is proposed here may well be worth trying because unlike Suggestions it won't actually record the programs unnecessarily but only give us a background list of other programs we might be interested in and act on if we choose to.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

aerialplug said:


> The UK model only uses the individual's past viewing/thumbs behaviour and nobody else's.


I believe that the UK suggestions were also seeded by US-based data.

Personally, I don't think that the 'also watched' model will work, since people's tastes are so diverse. I hate soaps and football, but probably share tastes for thrillers and action films that are shared by lovers of soaps and football. Not only would preferences for genres need to be included, but they would need to be more definitive and accurate.

For music, I like the approach used by Pandora and Moodlogic. The time will come when TV programmes and films will be categorised to the extent that you will be able to request an on-demand showing of something to suit your mood. e.g. Show me some films like 'Ronin' to select from.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

I like the look of the Pandora approach too - but the first 5 artist names I typed in were unrecognised 

I ended up having to play safe and entered "Norah Jones" to see what it is capable of, and on the whole I'm impressed. Needs more diverse artists added though...

Maybe a TiVoweb module that extends the genres model to include user-suggested attributes like "fast paced", "tense", "costume drama" etc. etc. could be a possibility?


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## wonderboy (May 27, 2003)

My taste differ a fair bit from my Girlfriends, hence Tivo thinks I'm a bit of a madman - giving thums up and down for similar programmes - they need to make the UI a bit more multi-user friendly to be completely brilliant.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

wonderboy said:


> My taste differ a fair bit from my Girlfriends, hence Tivo thinks I'm a bit of a madman - giving thums up and down for similar programmes - they need to make the UI a bit more multi-user friendly to be completely brilliant.


Obviously this would only work if a Tivo could have more than one User Profile with ideally different Season Passes, Wishlists, Thumbs Ratings and Suggestions possible for each User and each User then only able to look at and watch their recordings.

But since this isn't likely to happen any time soon on our frozen development Tivo S1 why not get the girlfriend to get her own Thomson Tivo off Ebay on which she can record her own thumbs preferences and programs. After all if your tastes are so different from each other it sounds like you and your girlfriend don't do all your television viewing together anyway?


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

blindlemon said:


> I like the look of the Pandora approach too ...


If anybody is put off registering by having to enter a US postcode, then any five-digit number will probably do. I just entered one from a US hotel website.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

iankb said:


> If anybody is put off registering by having to enter a US postcode, then any five-digit number will probably do. I just entered one from a US hotel website.


You can always use Zip code 20515 which is the code for the US Congress on Capitol Hill in Washington DC including the House of Representatives and US Senate.

Or if you want somewhere lower profile 22101 is for the Washington DC commuter settlement of McLean out in Fairfax County, Virginia


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

or 90210


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> or 90210


Beverly Hills, Los Angeles it would appear. I have a feeling there is some TV series that relates that I really should know more about.

I actually worked in the US Congress and lived in McLean in a gap year between school and university quite a few years ago.

See www.melissadata.com/lookups/mapzip.asp


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Great Idea. I would love for the info box on a show to display at least say the IMDB rating of a show. But the ability to get sort of a collective thumbs up/down from a community would be really neat.

As you can see from Digg, and the individual ratings on the idol clone shows, the ratings can be manipulated via campaigns. The difference hear is there is no incentive.

However collecting all the thumbs up and display aggregate values along with say a link to amazon for textual feedback would be cool. Gee If Tivo had a relationship with Amazon for downloads maybe they would ...

Also you could go to you Tivo-Online site and program in all sorts of metadata search keys that Tivo could use to feed show suggestions. IE beyond wishlists and such.

This would put the work on the server and your Tivo could then just periodically query your account for suggestions.

Its the network after all in collaberation.


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## wonderboy (May 27, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> Obviously this would only work if a Tivo could have more than one User Profile with ideally different Season Passes, Wishlists, Thumbs Ratings and Suggestions possible for each User and each User then only able to look at and watch their recordings.
> 
> But since this isn't likely to happen any time soon on our frozen development Tivo S1 why not get the girlfriend to get her own Thomson Tivo off Ebay on which she can record her own thumbs preferences and programs. After all if your tastes are so different from each other it sounds like you and your girlfriend don't do all your television viewing together anyway?


Again the problem is that Sky want more money to have a 2nd digibox in the house, which IMHO is a rip off. Does anyone know if I can split the Co-ax feed and use a box with a freview-only sky viewing card? (which I happen to have as I bought a new didgibox off ebay with one)

Thanks


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

wonderboy said:


> Again the problem is that Sky want more money to have a 2nd digibox in the house, which IMHO is a rip off. Does anyone know if I can split the Co-ax feed and use a box with a freview-only sky viewing card? (which I happen to have as I bought a new didgibox off ebay with one)


I don't have enough technical knowledge on this to know for certain although I'm sure any satellite tv installation firm in Yellow pages could tell you if you called. I think you probably have to have a dual LNB and cable feed from the dish to support a second box watching a different channel from the main box - that after all is the way Sky+ is configured for its second tuner..

An alternative though would be to feed the second Tivo using a Freeview box from your conventional tv aerial which only costs £30 or upwards for the Freeview box if you have a good enough tv signal in your area. Obviously you can't watch some of the pay Sky tv channels with that but you can get a lot of the main channels like E4 and Film4 free on Freeview now.

There is also www.freesatfromsky.co.uk where you could get a second Sky box and dish and viewing card installed for £150 for all the Free to Air channels on Sky. Normally getting a standard Sky minimum sub for only £180 for 1st year and then getting £50 cashback if you order via www.quidco.co.uk would be a better bet (they have been offering sports and movies free for 6 months) but if Sky have already put in one subsidised box I don't believe they will do another one at the same property and instead they will only offer you a Multiroom deal or Freesatfromsky which pay sky tv treat as nothing to do with them.


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## 10203 (Nov 11, 2001)

Sounds like a cool idea, d33mb33 - quite a few times I've caught a trailer for a programme and thought "that sounds great", but the programme I'm watching is several weeks old, so the advertised series has already started. Maybe I just need to catch up on my viewing... Sounds like a great idea, but sounds like quite a bit of work too.

The thumb data area of TiVo's database is divided into users, but only one user area is used...

IIRC the UK thumbs data was seeded from the US and is not updated in any way from our daily calls.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Interestingly this morning I have just received the below email from Sky asking me to participate in a survey they are doing on the views of their Sky News Panel on Remote Recording and in fact also about a Sky+ equivalent of Suggestions.

As I've now completed the survey unfortunately you won't be able to see the questions but basically they asked firstly if I had Sky+ and had ever used remote recording and if I hadn't done yet if I thought I might use it if I ever got Sky+

Then they asked about a proposal they had to let me know of great programs that matched existing types of programs that I might tend to record on a Sky+ box and then asked if I would be interested in Sky recording these additional programs to my box without me having to lift a finger. They allowed me to choose whether I wanted them to record between 1-2, 2-4, 4-6, 6-8 or 8-10 progams a week to my box without me having to set anything!

OK so we can seen where money making Sky is possibly going here. It seems its another Dosser & Jo type effort where Sky hope they can get various broadcasters to outbid each other to define what will be declared a "great program" to be recorded compulsorily to your box. Unless of course it really is a Sky+ version of the Tivo Suggestions system with the box recording your own top 10 each week matched to your previous recordings pattern.

So anyhow it seems Sky is planning to further evolve Sky+ possibly along the lines suggested here, although no doubt without in any way improving the crap Sky+ interface. See below for more info.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sky News Panel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 14 October 2006 04:39
Subject: Sky News Panel - Remote Recording Survey

Dear Panel Member,

In this survey we would like to know your views on Remote Recording.

This survey should take no more than a few minutes to complete. To participate in this survey, please click on the link below:

http://www.skynewspanel.com/index/760468696/waJqCDIvcCLZyTA/

(if the address is not clickable or it has wrapped onto two lines, please Copy and Paste the full link into the Location or Address bar of your web browser).

Kind Regards
Becky Green
Sky News Panel

If you want to invite friends and family to join the Sky News Panel, ask them to sign up at www.skynewspanel.com


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## 10203 (Nov 11, 2001)

Ignoring the original subject completely, I like Sky's "It doesn't cost anything to join" - all the other polling organisations I belong to pay me for my opinion!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

LJ said:


> Ignoring the original subject completely, I like Sky's "It doesn't cost anything to join" - all the other polling organisations I belong to pay me for my opinion!


Yes but at least this survey only asked about 6 pretty relevant questions.

The consumer household surveys you are talking about often ask 101 different graded versions of the same question and take a half hour or so to complete.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

I'm not sure a personal recommendations system could work for many of the reasons given above. 

However a much simpler system which collated data from everyone's Tivos and publishes a continuously updated "Top 20 New Season Passes set up" and a "Top 20 single recordings set up" for the last few days might give some clues for interesting new series, along the lines of the threads on here.


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