# Mad Men - "Dark Shadows" - 5/13/12



## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

It's a warm November in Gotham and loyalties are being betrayed right and left in this episode. Betty uses Sally against Don and Megan to betray Don's past to Sally. Don undermines Ginsburg's Sno-Ball campaign. Burt and Roger go behind Don's back by hiring Ginsburg to create a new campaign. Betty struggles not to betray her Weight Watcher's diet (she mostly succeeds). Henry begins to realize his loyalty to Lindsay might be costing him a career.

Lots of thing to digest. Discuss.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Keep going...

Roger betrays his soon to be ex's wish to have a 'clean' apartment with no memories, Campbell has erotic fantasies in the office about his train buddies wife, and Sally learns some more about the world of adults and the games they play.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

And Rory Gilmore sideboob!!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mwhip said:


> And Rory Gilmore sideboob!!


That was more than just sideboob. I was shocked there was no nipple showing in that scene.

I loved that Betty's plan backfired on her. She thought Megan wouldn't know about Anna, but instead Don had already told Megan, and then gladly told Sally as well. I wonder if that's going to lead to some holiday binge eating by Betty.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Interesting time with the whole Dark Shadows thing, considering the movie just came out ...


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> Interesting time with the whole Dark Shadows thing, considering the movie just came out ...


And Megan dealing with being in the 1%.

With the Sno-Ball campaign, I got the feeling Don had to prove to himself that he still had it in him. With the turmoil that will erupt in a couple years, ads with cops geting hit with snowballs could have backfired.

The scene in the elevator with Draper and Ginsberg seemed familiar, didn't a past season have a similar confrontation where Don said he didn't think about the other guy at all?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

vman41 said:


> And Megan dealing with being in the 1%.
> 
> With the Sno-Ball campaign, I got the feeling Don had to prove to himself that he still had it in him. With the turmoil that will erupt in a couple years, ads with cops geting hit with snowballs could have backfired.
> 
> The scene in the elevator with Draper and Ginsberg seemed familiar, didn't a past season have a similar confrontation where Don said he didn't think about the other guy at all?


Didn't he do that to Pete once?


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> .....I loved that Betty's plan backfired on her. She thought Megan wouldn't know about Anna, but instead Don had already told Megan, and then gladly told Sally as well......


I was waiting for the other shoe to drop when Sally asked Don if Anna was the one who called him Dick, but didn't ask anything else. Wow, Don dodged a 50 caliber identity bullet there! 

Anybody recall if Dick Whitman ever did a legal name change? If not, isn't Sally's real name Sally Whitman? That kind of takes the bark off the old family tree, eh?


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Didn't Sally get an A+, I was wondering if the previews were showing Don and Megan at a school function with a big chart showing Anna Draper.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

TiVo'Brien said:


> Anybody recall if Dick Whitman ever did a legal name change? If not, isn't Sally's real name Sally Whitman? That kind of takes the bark off the old family tree, eh?


I assume "Sally Draper" is what's written on her birth certificate -- as far as I know, that would be her legal, real name no matter whether or not her father was using an alias.

I'm interested to know whether or not there really was a feature on advertising agencies in the New York Times magazine on the Sunday before Thanksgiving 1966, and whether or not there actually was a smog alert in New York City on Thanksgiving Day 1966. (Didn't seem to affect the Macy's parade, though.)


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## DeDondeEs (Feb 20, 2004)

I liked Roger's question about how Jewish the client was. "Fiddler on the Roof, are we talking cast, or audience?"


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## Idearat (Nov 26, 2000)

trainman said:


> ...and whether or not there actually was a smog alert in New York City on Thanksgiving Day 1966. (Didn't seem to affect the Macy's parade, though.)


Actually, it looks like there was a smog alert.

Quick Google search for Thanksgiving 1966: It was on November 24th.
Quick search of NYT archive for "Smog Alert 1966" came up with this from November 27th:

SMOG SWEPT AWAY BY COOL AIR MASS; EMERGENCY ENDED; 3-State Alert Is Called Off as Fresh Winds Come In After a Night of Rain HELP BY PUBLIC PRAISED Most Followed Restrictions, Heller Says--No Illnesses Attributed to Pollution Citizens' Aid Lauded Smog Swept Out by Cold Front; 3-State Emergency Alert Ended The Call Goes Out Reporting System Speeded Weather to Continue Good Winds Fairly Gentle

By MURRAY SCHUMACHThe New York Times (by John Orris) (); 
November 27, 1966,

[ DISPLAYING ABSTRACT ]

The air-pollution emergency imposed here on Friday was ended yesterday after cool fresh air, rising Winds and a night of intemittent rain washed away the corrosive pall of smog.​
If Friday was bad enough to be called an emergency, it's not a stretch to think that Thursday was a high smog day also.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Idearat said:


> Actually, it looks like there was a smog alert.


All that smoking!


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

trainman said:


> ...I'm interested to know whether or not there really was a feature on advertising agencies in the New York Times magazine on the Sunday before Thanksgiving 1966,...


From Sepinwall's review of the episode:
"As happened with the protest from the season premiere, that was an actual New York Times Magazine feature on the ad game, including that photo of the partners from the agency Wells Rich Greene. (Full credit to Adam Bonin for finding that.)"


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

Betty is something terrible. I think she and Pete should get together somehow.


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## efilippi (Jul 24, 2001)

Did January Jones just naturally gain weight and then the writers wrote a story line to reflect it or did she gain weight just to stick to the script? The latter seems too much while the former doesn't seem right to me either. Just wondering.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

efilippi said:


> Did January Jones just naturally gain weight and then the writers wrote a story line to reflect it or did she gain weight just to stick to the script? The latter seems too much while the former doesn't seem right to me either. Just wondering.


Neither. The "weight" is just special effects. She was pregnant and had a baby during the show's hiatus, but by all accounts, she lost the baby weight quite quickly. I wonder if Weiner and Co. crafted the Fat Betty storyline while she was pregnant and weren't sure if she'd be able to quickly lose the weight (hello, Leah), and then decided to keep that storyline even when it became clear the weight would have to be added artificially.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

What was Betty's line...."I have everything I want and no one else has anything better?"... or something equally selfish? No wonder Sally's messed up. Even if you think that way, who says it at Thanksgiving dinner?

Good thing Meagan isn't still at the agency coming up with better ads than Don.


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

Betty Draper is wearing prosthetics  a fat suit! January Jones is still slender in real life.

The Weight Watchers/Betty storyline is kind of fun and very true to the mid-60s era. [WW was the the *new* thing when it came to dieting then... I remember my mother being on the program] For someone like Betty, with her modeling background and good looks, her internal torment must be unbearable. She's actually holding it together fairly well, considering.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Best dialogue/lines/retort of the night:

Ginsberg: "I feel bad for you"
Don Draper: "I don't think about you at all"


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> What was Betty's line...."I have everything I want and no one else has anything better?"... or something equally selfish? No wonder Sally's messed up. Even if you think that way, who says it at Thanksgiving dinner?


I think it was just a "high class" way of saying she couldn't imagine a better life than what she has, or that there's no one she's jealous of.

Completely false, of course, as she was dripping with jealousy for both Megan and Megan and Don's relationship, but I think that was the intent of the line.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Roger is as big a bastard as Pete, but at least he's funny. The scene with him and Ginsburg was awesome with all his Jewish stereotypes. It never occurred to me that Jane was Jewish either.

Insecure Don? More Megan barefoot, but she didn't look the slightest bit pregnant when Betty was watching her. And 73rd and Park? Nice!

And sweet fantasy, Pete!!


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I've never understood the betty hate until this episode. Wow.

And sally came into her own as a manipulative *****. I've never enjoyed her more!


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I think it's a show of how the characters have grown and changed. 

I would love for Don to come to work without all the hair stuff in his hair!


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Robin said:


> I've never understood the betty hate until this episode. Wow.
> 
> And sally came into her own as a manipulative *****. I've never enjoyed her more!


In the scene where Don was telling her about Anna, she actually looked like a mini-Betty, again reinforcing the Betty-as-a-child theme.


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

betts4 said:


> I think it's a show of how the characters have grown and changed.
> 
> I would love for Don to come to work without all the hair stuff in his hair!


In a few years "the wet head is dead" campaign will change all that.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

This show would be Mad Men:CSI if Sally had called any of the grown women I grew up with in the 60s a liar.

Jeez. Roger can buy his ex-wife a new apartment on her whim but he can't defile her in it? Doesn't seem fair. It wasn't all his fault. She could have said no.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

TiVo'Brien said:


> I was waiting for the other shoe to drop when Sally asked Don if Anna was the one who called him Dick, but didn't ask anything else.


I was wondering if this would come up, since I remember being a bit surprised that Don took the kids to meet Anna, and everyone called him "Dick Whitman" while he was there.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Jeez. Roger can buy his ex-wife a new apartment on her whim but he can't defile her in it? Doesn't seem fair. It wasn't all his fault. She could have said no.


I wondered about this. I guess that little pause just after they started making out where she said, "Wait," was supposed to be her way of letting him know she didn't want to continue, but then when he kept going, she did not protest. I wonder if that was supposed to be some kind of indicator of the times and culture, where a woman was expected to "be available" for her man, even if she didn't want to be.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> ... I wonder if that was supposed to be some kind of indicator of the times and culture, where a woman was expected to "be available" for her man, even if she didn't want to be.


 "her man"? I don't believe he's been "her man" for awhile now....(nor has she been "his woman")


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

He takes care of her. pays for her apartment. Even today I could imagine it hard to say no someone your livelihood depends on.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

kaszeta said:


> I was wondering if this would come up, since I remember being a bit surprised that Don took the kids to meet Anna, and everyone called him "Dick Whitman" while he was there.


He grossly underestimated how much kids pick up. He's not the first!


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> This show would be Mad Men:CSI if Sally had called any of the grown women I grew up with in the 60s a liar.


I don't understand what this means.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

I couldn't help but notice that Bobby drew a whale being harpooned and his b-day present to Don was a shaving cream brush made from a real beaver tail. Things that are unthinkable nowadays. Or should be.


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## DeDondeEs (Feb 20, 2004)

tiams said:


> I don't understand what this means.


I think it was touching on how kids weren't able to be that disrespectful back in those times.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

DeDondeEs said:


> I think it was touching on how kids weren't able to be that disrespectful back in those times.


So they would be murdered? I hope he didn't mean the children would be physically harmed.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

tiams said:


> I couldn't help but notice that Bobby drew a whale being harpooned and his b-day present to Don was a shaving cream brush made from a real beaver tail. Things that are unthinkable nowadays. Or should be.


I thought at first that the Whale represented Mom/Fat Betty in some way.


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## Idearat (Nov 26, 2000)

Not sure this needs it's own thread, but the current _Inside the Actors Studio_ has several of the cast of _Mad Men_ as well as Matthew Weiner It's not the best episode of the show, but not the worst.

The actress who plays Sally comes off as very bright and very talented. I have a better appreciation for her performance now that I've seen her not being creepy.


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## BK89 (Oct 11, 2005)

tiams said:


> So they would be murdered? I hope he didn't mean the children would be physically harmed.


Yes, they were murdered.


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## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

Robin said:


> I've never understood the betty hate until this episode. Wow.
> 
> And sally came into her own as a manipulative *****. I've never enjoyed her more!


Loved Sally! When she was hating on Megan, then said to her, "What are you going to do, go make yourself cry?"  Awesome!


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I did not care for the nasty Sally. For me this was the first time she really crossed from just misbehavior to outright cruelty.

I thought that the snowball in the face campaign was much better than the devil. Interestingly although Don is supposed to be a god of advertising, I don't think we've ever seen him come up with a really good campaign. Not that I can recall anyway. Or at least, not enough for me to buy into his genius status. He does a lot of drinking and yelling at the creative team, then using their ideas to build himself up.

So, typical management.


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## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

tiams said:


> So they would be murdered? I hope he didn't mean the children would be physically harmed.


Of course he did. Not murdered, but definitely physically harmed.

It was a different time. I got the crap beat out of me for less. With belts and hangers and hands. And my mouth literally washed out with soap.

Sally gets away with WAY more than most kids at that time would have, IMO.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

nyny523 said:


> Of course he did. Not murdered, but definitely physically harmed.
> 
> It was a different time. I got the crap beat out of me for less. With belts and hangers and hands. And my mouth literally washed out with soap.
> 
> Sally gets away with WAY more than most kids at that time would have, IMO.


Exactly. Those of us who grew up in the 50s and 60s know exactly what nyny23 is talking about...and we turned out pretty good.


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## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Exactly. Those of us who grew up in the 50s and 60s know exactly what nyny23 is talking about...and we turned out pretty good.


I turned out excellent. :up:


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Zevida said:


> I did not care for the nasty Sally. For me this was the first time she really crossed from just misbehavior to outright cruelty.
> 
> I thought that the snowball in the face campaign was much better than the devil. Interestingly although Don is supposed to be a god of advertising, I don't think we've ever seen him come up with a really good campaign. Not that I can recall anyway. Or at least, not enough for me to buy into his genius status. He does a lot of drinking and yelling at the creative team, then using their ideas to build himself up.
> 
> So, typical management.


Don used to deserve his reputation... the Kodak carousel being the reference example. But the idea is that over the last couple of seasons, he's gotten lazy, the world has started to pass him by, and he's losing his mojo. I think the idea in this ep is that Ginsberg's campaign is _supposed_ to be better. Don's isn't bad, but pretty much everyone acknowledged it was a runner-up to Ginsberg's -- and that's with Don having _tried_ to do better. He's struggling.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I was surprised to learn Weight Watchers has been around that long. I somehow thought they started in the 80s.


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

kaszeta said:


> I was wondering if this would come up, since I remember being a bit surprised that Don took the kids to meet Anna, and everyone called him "Dick Whitman" while he was there.


I think in front of the kids they only called him Dick, without the last name.

IIRC, Don said Dick was just a nickname.

And let's all not forget Don's award for the Glo-Coat floor wax campaign - the little buckaroo behind "bars" waiting for the kitchen floor to dry. It would seem, though, that Don's best work days are behind him.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

nyny523 said:


> Of course he did. Not murdered, but definitely physically harmed.
> 
> It was a different time. I got the crap beat out of me for less. With belts and hangers and hands. And my mouth literally washed out with soap.
> 
> Sally gets away with WAY more than most kids at that time would have, IMO.


QFT. At home AND at school.


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

TiVo'Brien said:


> I think in front of the kids they only called him Dick, without the last name.
> 
> IIRC, Don said Dick was just a nickname.
> 
> And let's all not forget Don's award for the Glo-Coat floor wax campaign - the little buckaroo behind "bars" waiting for the kitchen floor to dry. It would seem, though, that Don's best work days are behind him.


Wasn't that Peggy's idea?


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Queue said:


> Wasn't that Peggy's idea?


Yes, once again it was someone else's idea that he just refined. But he did not come up with the concept.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

gossamer88 said:


> I was surprised to learn Weight Watchers has been around that long. I somehow thought they started in the 80s.


I remember Mom measuring stuff out, just like Betty did. That was in the 60's.


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## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

Betty and Weight Watchers doesn't ring quite true for me. Why wouldn't she just get diet pills and go the shortcut route? Betty doesn't seem the type to go in for the "hard work" approach on anything. Although, Weight Watchers makes for better TV scripts and drama opportunities.


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## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

Mad Men Style:

http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/2012/05/mad-style-dark-shadows.html

Enjoy!


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

lpamelaa said:


> Betty and Weight Watchers doesn't ring quite true for me. Why wouldn't she just get diet pills and go the shortcut route? Betty doesn't seem the type to go in for the "hard work" approach on anything. Although, Weight Watchers makes for better TV scripts and drama opportunities.


Hard work? She lost a whole half-pound the first week, and zippo the second. She would have better success horse-riding.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

lpamelaa said:


> Betty and Weight Watchers doesn't ring quite true for me. Why wouldn't she just get diet pills and go the shortcut route? Betty doesn't seem the type to go in for the "hard work" approach on anything. Although, Weight Watchers makes for better TV scripts and drama opportunities.


Remember, she tried to get diet pills.


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## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

tiams said:


> Remember, she tried to get diet pills.


 And found out she might have cancer but now apparently does not. Why wouldn't the Dr. now prescribe the pills that were so often provided to stout housewives of the time?


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

lpamelaa said:


> And found out she might have cancer but now apparently does not. Why wouldn't the Dr. now prescribe the pills that were so often provided to stout housewives of the time?


Because she has an unspecified health problem. He found a problem, did tests that ruled out cancer, but the problem still exists.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

tiams said:


> Because she has an unspecified health problem. He found a problem, did tests that ruled out cancer, but the problem still exists.


I believe the problem is blasting whipped cream directly into her mouth.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Mr. Soze said:


> Hard work? She lost a whole half-pound the first week, and zippo the second. She would have better success horse-riding.


Cracks me up that they were taking these measurements and being proud of a half pound loss over a week. But they were weighing themselves in full clothing, so there's no way to know whether the outfit they were wearing was half a pound lighter than the one from the week before.


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## Idearat (Nov 26, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Cracks me up that they were taking these measurements and being proud of a half pound loss over a week. But they were weighing themselves in full clothing, so there's no way to know whether the outfit they were wearing was half a pound lighter than the one from the week before.


WW gets paid by the week, not the pound.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

tiams said:


> Because she has an unspecified health problem. He found a problem, did tests that ruled out cancer, but the problem still exists.





Bryanmc said:


> I believe the problem is blasting whipped cream directly into her mouth.


I was referring to the health problem the Dr. discovered which led him to test for cancer. You are giving a reason for her weight problem.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

I thought the sequence went:

1. Betty goes to doctor to try and get diet pills.
2. Doctor suggests weight gain may be cause by something larger, finds lump.
3. Lump is tested, turns out to be benign.
4. Betty is fat because she blasts whipped cream into her mouth.

There isn't a "health problem" other than the lump that was found, is there? I don't think they're still trying to find something.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> I believe the problem is blasting whipped cream directly into her mouth.


Yes, but she spit it out!


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Cracks me up that they were taking these measurements and being proud of a half pound loss over a week. But they were weighing themselves in full clothing, so there's no way to know whether the outfit they were wearing was half a pound lighter than the one from the week before.


Nobody in my weight watcher group wore that many clothes to weigh in, either. At least not after your first week.  Taking your shoes off was illegal when I went, so people took light weight slippers to be weighed in. All stupid, I know. .....


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Mr. Soze said:


> Yes, but she spit it out!


THAT time.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Megan is awesome.

Betty is a miserable mess. Unhappy with Henry. Jealous of Megan. 


I like Sally. Even with the attitude. It must have been tough to grow up in the Draper house.

The costume designer for this show deserve and award for giving us maximum Rory Gilmore boobage without having a wardrobe malfunction. I don't think it could have been executed better.

I liked the snowball to the face thing better than the devil. The devil is a bit too dark for kids. Especially in 1966.


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> .......I liked the snowball to the face thing better than the devil. The devil is a bit too dark for kids. Especially in 1966.


Agreed, but then again, a snowball to a cop's face was definitely disturbing by today's standards. How times have changed.

Regarding Bobby's picture of the whale, two interesting facts: 

The whale's color *exactly* matched Betty's dress color, dead on. 
There were three harpoons in 'Betty'. One for Sally, one for Bobby, and one for Henry? Suggesting nobody in the household is happy with Betty?


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

TiVo'Brien said:


> Agreed, but then again, a snowball to a cop's face was definitely disturbing by today's standards. How times have changed.
> 
> Regarding Bobby's picture of the whale, two interesting facts:
> 
> ...


I thought the third was Gene.


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