# Revolution S01E02....9.24.12



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Haven't watched it yet...others too lazy to start thread...so here ya go...


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

Will be OD'n it tonight..will report back after we watch.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I watched it, but I'm too lazy to comment on it.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I've watched the pilot and the 2nd episode back to back. I do not like Charlie at all. Also, is she supposed to be a teenager? If so, she must have that aging disease since she looks closer to 30 than 20.

If I buy into the fact that there's no electricity, shouldn't there still be steam and coal powered transportation like trains?


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I've watched the pilot and the 2nd episode back to back. I do not like Charlie at all. Also, is she supposed to be a teenager? If so, she must have that aging disease since she looks closer to 30 than 20.
> 
> If I buy into the fact that there's no electricity, *shouldn't there still be steam and coal powered transportation like trains*?


That would be too logical and make for boring TV!! Come on!!


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

After my expectations were severely lowered by the premiere, I have to say that I found this episode to be decent. Unlike the premiere, I wasn't bothered by a million little things that seemed unbelievable. Archer boy still bugs me though. I cringed when I first saw C. Thomas Howell, but then laughed when they killed him off a few minutes later. The fact that Elizabeth Mitchell's character is alive is a huge plus in my opinion.

This episode definitely shows you where things are headed, though I guess I should have known based on the title of the show. That's great that the American flag is the rebel flag. I think I'm in for the ride if future episodes are at this level.

They gave away a big spoiler in the preview for next week's episode:


Spoiler



That the uncle was the founder of the militia. Given his relationship with Monroe, this was perhaps predictable, but I think this will give an interesting dynamic to the revolution that is coming.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> I've watched the pilot and the 2nd episode back to back. I do not like Charlie at all. Also, is she supposed to be a teenager? If so, she must have that aging disease since she looks closer to 30 than 20.
> 
> *If I buy into the fact that there's no electricity, shouldn't there still be steam and coal powered transportation like trains?*


At least Google-Guy addressed that, somewhat, in his "we should be able to fix these types of things, so the fact that we haven't been able to means The Event was man-made, and therefore can be man-unmade" speech.

Regarding the preview clip at the end of the episode, I was really glad to see that (casting spoiler)



Spoiler



Mark Pellegrino



will be making an appearance. Love him. No idea if he's on-board for a major role or just a one-and-done C. Thomas Howell type of guest spot, but I hope he sticks around.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I watched it, but I'm too lazy to comment on it.


:up: :up: :up:


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I killed the SP based on the Pilot. But when there's nothing on I'll check it out On Demand.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I watched it, it's ok. I guess my issue is I can't tell what they want their show to be. Do they want teen angst, or science hoopla, or overarching mystery, or a LOST-type "all the characters are intertwined" story, or what? You can't be everything to all viewers. It's early in the story and it's still interesting enough to keep me watching, as the writers attempt to figure out what they have on their hands.

[Ratings aside, from TVbytheNumbers: Revolution garnered a 3.5, down sharply from last week's 4.1 18-49 rating, though this is not an unexpected drop post premiere and NBC has to be pretty happy about it considering it faced original scripted competition on ABC & CBS this week.]

I agree with cheese about Charlie. We had a number of lingering closeups on her this week, and she ain't no kid. I'm not thrilled with her casting anyway, but then most writers make teens into idiots, so it's hard to differentiate between crappy teen writing and crappy teen acting.

And as if the mystery woman with the compuserve connection wasn't enough, now we have "Randall" after her. And of course she has no real protection from home invasion, just a couple of home depot deadbolts. [Seriously, if you're gonna have some super-secret home computer setup in a world with no computers, can't you at least protect/hide it better?]

I'll see where it goes. It doesn't appear to be the tightest written show on TV, but it's not as bad as some where the SP didn't survive the night (hello Terra Firma).

Oh, and enough with the incredibly cheesy sword fights. I feel like I'm watching a Monty Python parody.


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I watched it, it's ok. I guess my issue is I can't tell what they want their show to be. Do they want teen angst, or science hoopla, or overarching mystery, or a LOST-type "all the characters are intertwined" story, or what? You can't be everything to all viewers. It's early in the story and it's still interesting enough to keep me watching, as the writers attempt to figure out what they have on their hands.
> 
> [Ratings aside, from TVbytheNumbers: Revolution garnered a 3.5, down sharply from last week's 4.1 18-49 rating, though this is not an unexpected drop post premiere and NBC has to be pretty happy about it considering it faced original scripted competition on ABC & CBS this week.]
> 
> ...


Not to mention at least make it less conspicuous! I mean if there is one door in a house with 10 friggin locks on it, then yeah, I'd be thinkin' "What's behind THIS door lady!!??"


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

astrohip said:


> I watched it, it's ok. I guess my issue is I can't tell what they want their show to be. Do they want teen angst, or science hoopla, or overarching mystery, or a LOST-type "all the characters are intertwined" story, or what? You can't be everything to all viewers.


Wasn't Lost at the same time science hoopla, overarching mystery, and all characters intertwined? There may not have been teen angst, but there were love triangles which is fairly similar. A good show (and I'm not saying this is one) can be genre-bending. In fact, I prefer it to be.



astrohip said:


> [Ratings aside, from TVbytheNumbers: Revolution garnered a 3.5, down sharply from last week's 4.1 18-49 rating, though this is not an unexpected drop post premiere and NBC has to be pretty happy about it considering it faced original scripted competition on ABC & CBS this week.]


NBC has to be over the moon ecstatic about these numbers. 3.5 is a very solid number, and the fact that it rather easily won the key demo over the season premieres of Castle and H:5-0 makes it a solid win on the night for NBC.



astrohip said:


> I agree with cheese about Charlie. We had a number of lingering closeups on her this week, and she ain't no kid. I'm not thrilled with her casting anyway, but then most writers make teens into idiots, so it's hard to differentiate between crappy teen writing and crappy teen acting.


She's 24. I would guess that her age on the show is somewhere around 20 (she appears to be 5 or so in the flashbacks, and it's been 15 years since then). That's hardly out of the ordinary.


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## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

I liked it.. Im a sucker for these type shows and I agree its not the tightest written show around, but really want to see where it goes..


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Yes charlie is supposed to be 20 years old. Her brother is suppsoed to be 19 years old.

http://revolution.wikin.com/wiki/Charlie_Matheson


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Interview with Elizabeth Mitchell

http://tvline.com/2012/09/24/revolution-preview-elizabeth-mitchell/

only very broad spoilers, nothing really revealing


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

If find myself rooting for Charlie and her brother to die, never a good sign when I root for the demise of main characters.


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

About 20 minutes in, I decided sleep would be more interesting than watching this show. Against my better judgement, I watched the rest of it in the morning. Then I promptly deleted my season pass. 

It's a bunch of brainless violence with a little insipid dialog sprinkled in between. If I want to watch sword fighting I'll put on an Errol Flynn movie.


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## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

I thought this was going to be a grand adventure. If it's going to devolve into an episode of Power Rangers each week, I'm not gonna stick with it.

BTW, if they've had the means to turn the power back on for 15 years, WTH are they waiting for?


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

Overall, I liked this episode. I'm willing to give it some time.

But, I do have a couple of technical issues with the show:

1) Everyone has a purple lower lip. Enough with the lip makeup!

2) The opening clearly shows a shot of St. Louis with a chunk blasted out of the top of the arch. Now, that's physically impossible. When they were building the arch, they had to temporarily cross connect the two sides when they got about 2/3 of the way up with construction, because the foundations could not support the sideways forces that would exist until the tops were connected. After the arch was topped out, they removed the temporary cross connect. There's no way the arch could still be standing as shown in the opening. Another time they ignore the laws of physics. :down:

Dave


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mrdbdigital said:


> There's no way the arch could still be standing as shown in the opening. Another time they ignore the laws of physics.


See? Another example of how brilliant the writing is on this show!

They keep giving us subtle clues that the laws of physics have been rewritten!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Finally watched it...thought it dragged a bit. But I'm sticking with it....for now.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Alfer said:


> Not to mention at least make it less conspicuous! I mean if there is one door in a house with 10 friggin locks on it, then yeah, I'd be thinkin' "What's behind THIS door lady!!??"


I haven't seen the second episode yet, but in the first episode, she unlocks all four or five locks, then open the heavy door on creacky hinges and goes up the stairs, but never closes the door. If you are wanting to protect what's up there, at least close and lock the door behind you!



RGM1138 said:


> I thought this was going to be a grand adventure. If it's going to devolve into an episode of Power Rangers each week, I'm not gonna stick with it.
> .
> .
> .


There have only been two episodes, give it a chance. It isn't clear what it will DEVOLVE into yet.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

I'm only watching to spot the locally shot scenes.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

andyw715 said:


> I'm only watching to spot the locally shot scenes.


You live in the future?


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Yeah, not as many eye-rolls on this ep, but still not the greatest.

I think the thing with Charlie and not-Nate is meant to evoke the _Hunger Games_ mystique, but it ain't working for me. The rest of the time they want to be _The Postman_ with a bit of _Lost_ thrown in.

One thing I don't buy is the tattoo reveal on Nora. You're honestly going to tell me that those militia men took such an attractive (and inexplicably clean) young woman into their custody with out at least "searching" her a little? Heck, just the normal shifting of her tank top should have revealed enough of the tat to be noticed, given the position of it.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I know this is a weird thing to have a reaction to, but I started playing the 2nd episode and didn't immediately FF into the guts of the episode&#8230;

The little synopsis of the show that they put at the beginning is probably the best I've ever seen. It was concise and told you everything you needed to know about the show! (Plus, I didn't recognize all of the footage.) I mean what they showed BEFORE the "previously on" segment.

I must have totally zoned out.. I noticed C Thomas Howell in the credits, but never noticed him in the episode. (I see above someone said he was killed early.)


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

mattack said:


> The little synopsis of the show that they put at the beginning is probably the best I've ever seen. It was concise and told you everything you needed to know about the show!


I agree. I thought it was well done.

Dave


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

They must live in a circular country.

The kid runs away and ends up on power lady's farm.

Charlie and Google Guy have to get there but it way over in Indiana. Another long trek & quest.


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## TheDewAddict (Aug 21, 2002)

mrdbdigital said:


> 2) The opening clearly shows a shot of St. Louis with a chunk blasted out of the top of the arch. Now, that's physically impossible. When they were building the arch, they had to temporarily cross connect the two sides when they got about 2/3 of the way up with construction, because the foundations could not support the sideways forces that would exist until the tops were connected. After the arch was topped out, they removed the temporary cross connect. There's no way the arch could still be standing as shown in the opening. Another time they ignore the laws of physics. :down:
> 
> Dave


I know what you mean. I'm from STL so I'm happy to see it on TV, but every time they show that shot, I just get pissed for the reasons you mentioned above.

Not to mention that everyone has perfect hair, even after waking up in the morning in the middle of the forest.


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## StacieH (Jan 2, 2009)

I just LOLd at the previous comment about C. Thomas Howell. I recognized him instantly and pointed him out. My husband didn't know who he was until I mentioned a couple of 80s movies.

I did notice that Howell was dead by the time his name came up in credits.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

StacieH said:


> I just LOLd at the previous comment about C. Thomas Howell. I recognized him instantly and pointed him out. My husband didn't know who he was until I mentioned a couple of 80s movies.
> 
> I did notice that Howell was dead by the time his name came up in credits.


Every time I see him it gets me thinking about watching E.T. again.

He has not aged very well. Epescially considering that he is only 45 right now.


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## That Don Guy (Mar 13, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I watched it, it's ok. I guess my issue is I can't tell what they want their show to be. Do they want teen angst, or science hoopla, or overarching mystery, or a LOST-type "all the characters are intertwined" story, or what?


I wasn't quite sure myself, until they used the words "rebel flag". Now I have some idea why it's titled "Revolution" - it's a modern version of the American Revolution.

Another link between the two (besides the importance that Independence Hall seems to have):


Spoiler



Appaerntly, Miles was the original commander of the Militia; when I saw this, the first thing that came to mind was, George Washington was a high-level officer in the British Army at one point before he "joined the other side". Then again, you can say the same for Robert E. Lee.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

I was more shaking my head that there was that much looting and destruction after a week of blackout. Or that a guy would be stealing food after a week, you know the decency of humanity would prevail at least for a month. Also how would anyone know what was happening? Wouldn't the first week be figuring that out?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

That is an amazingly strong girl. She can push up against a man's weight while he is pushing down with all his muscles. She can do this for a minute or two and eventually have enough strength to push him away completely. Never mind that in one swift motion, she was able to then turn the gun around, presumably switch the safety off, and shoot him straight through the heart.

I'm going to go with "cylon" as my final answer.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

mwhip said:


> I was more shaking my head that there was that much looting and destruction after a week of blackout. Or that a guy would be stealing food after a week, you know the decency of humanity would prevail at least for a month. Also how would anyone know what was happening? Wouldn't the first week be figuring that out?


That's not at all far fetched as it's already happened in real life. Remember Hurricane Katrina? It only took 1 day for the city to completely fall apart with mass rioting and looting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_...ns_after_Hurricane_Katrina#Civil_disturbances


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

morac said:


> That's not at all far fetched as it's already happened in real life. Remember Hurricane Katrina? It only took 1 day for the city to completely fall apart with mass rioting and looting.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_...ns_after_Hurricane_Katrina#Civil_disturbances


Yeah, sadly that's the most realistic part of the whole show.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

My son (12) kept saying, "I don't like this show, everyone is so stupid". I tend to agree.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

morac said:


> That's not at all far fetched as it's already happened in real life. Remember Hurricane Katrina? It only took 1 day for the city to completely fall apart with mass rioting and looting.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_...ns_after_Hurricane_Katrina#Civil_disturbances


That is a natural disaster, I would not call a power outage a natural disaster. Maybe on that scale it could be because everything with power is out but I still think after a week people would still be trying to figure out what is going on.


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## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

andyw715 said:


> I'm only watching to spot the locally shot scenes.


Me too. The only thing I've noticed so far is the (now vacant) Sticky Fingers building. (Was that in the previews?) Did you recognize any others?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

mwhip said:


> I was more shaking my head that there was that much looting and destruction after a week of blackout. Or that a guy would be stealing food after a week, you know the decency of humanity would prevail at least for a month. Also how would anyone know what was happening? Wouldn't the first week be figuring that out?


YEAH! That's one of the planet-sized plot holes. The East coast power fialiure. Katrina. Andrew. People survived many, many weeks, but of course, they had working communication.

How about going in search of food with guns after ONE WEEK. I go several weeks living off what's in the fridge and pantry. Food in the fridge is OK for several days without power.

These guys tore down society in no time. Who knew the government need electricity to operate? That would have been news to Lincoln, John Adams and Andrew Jackson.

The other recurring one is the 15 years of Alzheimer's. Rachel has been with Monroe - on somehow in change - for 15 years but once again Monroe just now decided it would be a good idea to look up Ben and Miles.

What are the odds that "Randall" also just decided to make his Zombie walk after 15 years.

They should call the show Rip Van Lution.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

StacieH said:


> I just LOLd at the previous comment about C. Thomas Howell. I recognized him instantly and pointed him out. My husband didn't know who he was until I mentioned a couple of 80s movies.
> 
> I did notice that Howell was dead by the time his name came up in credits.


I saw him, thought it was him, looked him up on IMDB, but it does not list Revolution under his credits, so I thought it wasn't him.

Are we 100% sure that was C. Thomas Howell?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

SeanC said:


> I saw him, thought it was him, looked him up on IMDB, but it does not list Revolution under his credits, so I thought it wasn't him.
> 
> Are we 100% sure that was C. Thomas Howell?


Call me quirky, but I'd say the credits on the show trump the credits on IMDb...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

mwhip said:


> I was more shaking my head that there was that much looting and destruction after a week of blackout. Or that a guy would be stealing food after a week, you know the decency of humanity would prevail at least for a month. Also how would anyone know what was happening? Wouldn't the first week be figuring that out?


One week without any electricity and I'll be one rioting mf'er simply out of boredom.


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> One week without any electricity and I'll be one rioting mf'er simply out of boredom.


Yeah - I was thinking all of the dark smart phones would drive people to violence.


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## StacieH (Jan 2, 2009)

SeanC said:


> I saw him, thought it was him, looked him up on IMDB, but it does not list Revolution under his credits, so I thought it wasn't him.
> 
> Are we 100% sure that was C. Thomas Howell?


IMDB is often updated after the fact, and sometimes not at all. But yes, it was him. He was listed in opening credits, and I recognized him with just a split second glance.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Ah, I didn't doubt that the show's credits were correct, I just missed the previous comment that said you guys had seen the name in the credits.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jehma said:


> My son (12) kept saying, "I don't like this show, everyone is so stupid". I tend to agree.


That describes pretty much every TV show. It's not reality.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mwhip said:


> That is a natural disaster, I would not call a power outage a natural disaster. Maybe on that scale it could be because everything with power is out but I still think after a week people would still be trying to figure out what is going on.


But you have to remember everything is out. No generators no battery backups. People would know something weird is going on. Some of my UPSs will keep my LAN and internet connection up for 18 hours. As soon as everything went down, cars, planes, battery powered devices,etc. people would know that something weird is happening. There would be mass panic right away. I would freakout and panic right away if all those things went down because that is not possible with what we know today about science.

It is much, much more than just a blackout.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> One week without any electricity and I'll be one rioting mf'er simply out of boredom.


You are in Philly, Philly people riot out of boredom weekly.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

mwhip said:


> That is a natural disaster, I would not call a power outage a natural disaster. Maybe on that scale it could be because everything with power is out but I still think after a week people would still be trying to figure out what is going on.


Except it's not just a power outage. *Nothing* works - even things (like cars) that should work. That's bound to freak people out much more than even a natural disaster would.

I find the looting completely believable.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> But you have to remember everything is out. No generators no battery backups. People would know something weird is going on. Some of my UPSs will keep my LAN and internet connection up for 18 hours. As soon as everything went down, cars, planes, battery powered devices,etc. people would know that something weird is happening. There would be mass panic right away. I would freakout and panic right away if all those things went down because that is not possible with what we know today about science.
> 
> It is much, much more than just a blackout.


Not to mention, no telephone service, and probably no printing services either, since I can't imagine that any of the newspapers still have hand-crank mimeographs.

Think about it. You would have *no* idea what was going, and no real way to find out. That's going to cause a widespread panic in a pretty short amount of time.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Looting I can see and everyone would try to get out of the city, but it was weird that there was only 1 looter there--I would expect crowds, and I wouldn't leave my wife and kids alone.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

mwhip said:


> That is a natural disaster, I would not call a power outage a natural disaster. Maybe on that scale it could be because everything with power is out but I still think after a week people would still be trying to figure out what is going on.


Permanent loss of electricity on a global scale would be a natural disaster in this day and age. Worse actually since there would be no National Guard as all their trucks and the like wouldn't work. So no delivered food and water.

Think about it this way. Your power goes out and you have no idea why since your batteries no longer work either. It wouldn't matter since there would be no Internet, TV, radio, newspapers (all printed electrically these days). No information. You can't go anywhere as your car doesn't work. Supermarkets would be cleared of food in a few hours, a day at most. The world would literally be thrown back into the dark ages. You give people as a whole too much credit. I believe once people figured out that nothing works, most would freak out.

Sure people lived fine back in the days before electricity, but that's because that's all they ever knew and were used to it. Most food is shipped from far away as local farms close up and get turned into housing and most people don't store weeks of non-perishable food and water. Even disaster guides only recommend storing a week's worth or two.

Take someone who buys mostly frozen food and cooks in a microwave or oven (the pilot light is usually started electrically) (or worse someone who eats mostly takeout). This person would have no idea on how to survive without all those modern "conveniences". The person could possibly learn to survive, but he or she would have to live long enough to do so.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> ...Think about it. You would have *no* idea what was going, and no real way to find out. That's going to cause a widespread panic in a pretty short amount of time.


Poeple would still gather with the neighbors. Some would travel to carry the word, which would, yes, leave them open to all kinds of false rumors, but no way would DC and other government just close up shop. They can send troops on foot (remembering that somehow everybody forgot how to ride bicycles.)

Another howler here is that in 15 years the loyal soldiers went from worshiping the flag to viewing it as the sign of the enemy. Never!


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Very obvious in this episode that the laws of physics changed enough to alter the weather to a point where, after 15 years, the landscape of Illinois looks exactly like eastern North Carolina.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Those poor slaves (who were very color coordinated by the way, all yellow tops and khaki pants) wouldn't need to pull a helicopter to the militia base camp if they could get it on a train.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

netringer said:


> Poeple would still gather with the neighbors. Some would travel to carry the word, which would, yes, leave them open to all kinds of false rumors, but no way would DC and other government just close up shop. They can send troops on foot (remembering that somehow everybody forgot how to ride bicycles.)
> 
> Another howler here is that in 15 years the loyal soldiers went from worshiping the flag to viewing it as the sign of the enemy. Never!


How long would it take to travel? Our ancestors took months to go from the east to west coasts. We'd do it faster because of paved roads, but it would still be slow. Troops from DC couldn't get to Illinois in time to do much, and they couldn't even communicate except by pony express or carrier pigeon.

I agree that the flag is hard to swallow.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

I guess but I have to think that even after just a week that I would still be in my house trying to figure out what is going on.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

netringer said:


> Poeple would still gather with the neighbors. Some would travel to carry the word, which would, yes, leave them open to all kinds of false rumors, but no way would DC and other government just close up shop. They can send troops on foot (remembering that somehow everybody forgot how to ride bicycles.)


I think you're dramatically underestimating the effects.

For instance, I live in SoCal. How, exactly, is the government going to get word out to me? Google estimates that it's a 252 hour bike ride from the White House to my hometown (it's an estimated 2,937 mile trip, so apparently that's about 11 mph on the bike). Assuming you can bike 8 hours a day (which is probably all that is realistic since you would run out of food pretty quick and would have to forage/scavenge for it along the way), that's going to take 31 days to get to me.

I have a hard time imagining that the entire West Coast would not devolve into chaos in less than half that time. Any command decision is going to have to be relayed by foot/bicycle/horse traffic, which means that any delay is going to massive ripple effects. What about messengers who die on the way? And what kind of message would they deliver? "The President is still in charge. Stay calm. We don't know why this happened, but we're working on it"? Once people realize the government isn't going to help out and can't save them, they're going to start to fend for themselves - it's the American way. 

Now, I live in a pretty safe area, and unlike many areas I'm sure, we are good friends with multiple families in my little neighborhood. We could probably band together and create a little community. But after all the local grocery stores were ransacked, where would we get food? There's no real farm land anywhere. We have a small garden, but that's not going to support us for long. We'd be in fairly desperate straits inside of 3 weeks probably, and that's assuming that there is not widespread looting nearby that causes violence to break out. Because once that happens, it's hard to go back.

Now multiply that by every city in every state.



netringer said:


> Another howler here is that in 15 years the loyal soldiers went from worshiping the flag to viewing it as the sign of the enemy. Never!


Maybe, maybe not. But if society collapses in a year or so, and some militia arises out of the ashes and gives people structure, and then declares itself the new government and demands total allegience, who knows what would happen.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

allan said:


> How long would it take to travel? Our ancestors took months to go from the east to west coasts. We'd do it faster because of paved roads, but it would still be slow. Troops from DC couldn't get to Illinois in time to do much, and they couldn't even communicate except by pony express or carrier pigeon...


Yeah, Carrier pigeon!

Watch "John Adams." You get the idea that the trip from (Boston) Mass to Philadelphia took 3-4 days on horseback or by carriage.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Episode titles for the first 5 episodes, plus some speculation.


Spoiler




"Pilot"
"Chained Heat"
"No Quarter"
"The Plague Dogs"
"Soul Train"
If the name for Episode 5 isn't about dancing, it looks like we might get an answer on whether choo choo's work or not.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Looting I can see and everyone would try to get out of the city, but it was weird that there was only 1 looter there--I would expect crowds, and I wouldn't leave my wife and kids alone.


They waited one week before they left their house. I would think to wait for the chaos to subside. Although I'm not sure that one week would really have been enough time.

Sent from my HTC ReZound using Forum Runner


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

netringer said:


> Yeah, Carrier pigeon!
> 
> Watch "John Adams." You get the idea that the trip from (Boston) Mass to Philadelphia took 3-4 days on horseback or by carriage.


I don't know about you, but I don't own a horse and I don't know anyone else who does either.

I doubt most people who live in cities or suburbs do either. Hence the opening statement from the show "people who stayed in cities died".


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

netringer said:


> Yeah, Carrier pigeon!
> 
> Watch "John Adams." You get the idea that the trip from (Boston) Mass to Philadelphia took 3-4 days on horseback or by carriage.


Average person walks at around 3 mph. Horses are only a bit faster: 4mph. (Yeah, a horse can be made to trot while traveling, but for how long?). I'd bet in reality it would take at least a week.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> That describes pretty much every TV show. It's not reality.


Yeah, I don't understand why everybody is picking this one apart. You could do this with 90% of the shows on teevee...


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Yeah, I don't understand why everybody is picking this one apart. You could do this with 90% of the shows on teevee...


90% of the shows aren't 90% nonsense like this one.

The audience can buy in to the premise of the show, provided it keeps to it's own canon. This one's canon apparently is "it/they can't because it would make this cool scene we wrote unnecessary."


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

> Yeah, I don't understand why everybody is picking this one apart. You could do this with 90% of the shows on teevee...


These characters continually make stupid decisions simply because they need the plot to move that way.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

I'm loving the debate here on what would happen. 

I'm a sucker for "post apocolyptic" shows.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

StacieH said:


> I did notice that Howell was dead by the time his name came up in credits.


Oh, I guess that's why I didn't notice him after that!! heh heh.

I have to go reread the imdb list for the uncle again. He looks REALLY familiar, but when I looked last week, I didn't recognize him obviously as "oh, the guy from THAT show".


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

morac said:


> newspapers (all printed electrically these days).


What does that mean? How are newspapers printed nowadays?

It's not like a big 'computer printer' is it? I presume for the vast quantities (despite "nobody buying papers anymore"), you still need the big giant printing presses.

Plus, you still see things like the color pictures having the colors offset, or some pages printed on partially folded pages (GRR).. Which seems to me like it wouldn't happen with something more akin to a computer printer.

I guess I imagined it was something vaguely like a giant dot matrix printer, but the "dot matrix" actually made the big printing wheel totally made up idea, I guess.


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## DougF (Mar 18, 2003)

mattack said:


> Oh, I guess that's why I didn't notice him after that!! heh heh.
> 
> I have to go reread the imdb list for the uncle again. He looks REALLY familiar, but when I looked last week, I didn't recognize him obviously as "oh, the guy from THAT show".


It took me a bit but I finally remembered him from an early season of 24.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

mattack said:


> What does that mean? How are newspapers printed nowadays?
> 
> It's not like a big 'computer printer' is it? I presume for the vast quantities (despite "nobody buying papers anymore"), you still need the big giant printing presses.
> 
> ...


http://people.howstuffworks.com/newspaper4.htm

My main point was that newspapers are not hand cranked out these days though. There probably is no way to print by hand either. I know when my local newspaper has printing issues, they simply send email me a PDF version.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I've watched the pilot and the 2nd episode back to back. I do not like Charlie at all. Also, is she supposed to be a teenager? If so, she must have that aging disease since she looks closer to 30 than 20.
> 
> If I buy into the fact that there's no electricity, shouldn't there still be steam and coal powered transportation like trains?


I think there probably is supposed to be, but after seeing them dragging that helicopter through the forest, my guess is that there isn't the non-electrical infrastructure to transport the coal to the trains and likely not a lot of coal-powered trains on the track and no good way to move them there.

One thing we keep handwaving away is that there had to have been a MASSIVE population drop shortly after the power went out as infrastructure for transporting food (and growing it) promptly collapsed in on itself, leading to mass starvation. Anyways, without a lot of able bodies handy, getting pre-electric technology up and running is going to be problematic.

Los Angeles has "Travel Town" which is a park within Griffith Park that is home to about half a dozen steam engines. They were given to the children of the city by Union Pacific (I think) when they switched their fleet over to being entirely diesel. These trains are nowhere near a train track and I don't know what state of repair they are in, but as they've been sitting outside with full exposure to the elements for the past 30-40 years, I don't think you could just plunk them on the track, load them up with coal, and steam away.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

ElJay said:


> If I want to watch sword fighting I'll put on an Errol Flynn movie.


:up:


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> But you have to remember everything is out. No generators no battery backups. People would know something weird is going on. Some of my UPSs will keep my LAN and internet connection up for 18 hours. As soon as everything went down, cars, planes, battery powered devices,etc. people would know that something weird is happening. There would be mass panic right away. I would freakout and panic right away if all those things went down because that is not possible with what we know today about science.
> 
> It is much, much more than just a blackout.


We were on the beach during the huge blackout on the west coast a few years (gee---probably more than a decade ago now?) back. That blackout was several hours long, but obviously cars (and boats and telephone lines) continued working. We went for a bike ride and went to lunch at a local burger joint. I think we didn't know the power was out until at least an hour into it.

Nobody rioted or looted.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

Church AV Guy said:


> I haven't seen the second episode yet, but in the first episode, she unlocks all four or five locks, then open the heavy door on creacky hinges and goes up the stairs, but never closes the door. If you are wanting to protect what's up there, at least close and lock the door behind you!


As I'm sure you've noticed, television characters have a bad habit of not closing doors when they should and closing doors when they shouldn't. It like they live in an alternate universe with _very_ different customs on how doors should be left.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

morac said:


> Sure people lived fine back in the days before electricity, but that's because that's all they ever knew and were used to it. Most food is shipped from far away as local farms close up and get turned into housing and most people don't store weeks of non-perishable food and water. Even disaster guides only recommend storing a week's worth or two.


Not to be a cynic, but after two weeks ONE of the following would have happened:

1) order and supply infrastructure restored making water available again
2) people will be evacuated to a place that has available water and food
3) people who have used their two week supply will have outlived everyone who had no water and died of thirst and those surviving can begin to capture/purify the available water to drink without having to fight with others for the supply


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

Okay.....so my thoughts on the show.

There were a LOT of sad-eyed closeups of the girl (Clarice? Claire? Christine?) regarding the fate of the bounty hunter. Really? I mean....REALLY?? She's lived the last 15 years in a fairly dog-eat-dog society and she doesn't know that the easiest way to dispose of someone who is threatening you is to kill them? She talks her uncle out of killing the guy outright so he locks him up in a boxcar instead. Putting aside the fact that he clearly did a crappy job of it (as the bounty hunter seemed to be maybe ten minutes behind them by the time they reached the city du jour), she's traded a quick and fairly painless death for a slow and miserable death by dehydration/starvation trapped in the boxcar. Gee....THAT'S more merciful. 

The other thing was the odd little scene where the militia took the guy's guns. What jumped out at me was the head guy saying "It is unlawful to buy, sell, own, or transport a gun." Hmmm....what's missing from this list? USING a gun, which therefore must be legal.....so what's the point in tracking down the person with the gun every time you hear a gunshot if your little gov't forgot to make using a gun illegal.

I also found it kinda weird that there seem to be a lot of markets in the cities they go into. I'm a little curious what people are using for a currency since most of the shoppers didn't seem to be carrying anything to barter with (then again, most of the sellers seemed to be selling flea market knicknacks, not food). The uncle buy something with a nugget of gold. How aluable is gold really going to be in a society that still appears to have almost no production outside of some basic agriculture?


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

So all this stuff to get "the sniper rifle", like it was some strange, rare and coveted artifact. Didn't Monroe take over an military installation? There should be plenty of those rifles around, no?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Polcamilla said:


> Not to be a cynic, but after two weeks ONE of the following would have happened:
> 
> 1) order and supply infrastructure restored making water available again
> 2) people will be evacuated to a place that has available water and food
> 3) people who have used their two week supply will have outlived everyone who had no water and died of thirst and those surviving can begin to capture/purify the available water to drink without having to fight with others for the supply


1) How? Unless you live near a stream or river there is no fresh water. You could collect rain, assuming it rained (it didn't rain the entire month of July this year in my area).
2) Again how? You think the Government is somehow going to round up several hundred thousand horses for people to ride on? Remember the normal evacuation methods and food distribution methods won't work.
3) Again, that assumes you live near a natural source of food and water. Many people these days do not. Most people in Las Vegas for example would probably be dead within the course of a week.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

eddyj said:


> So all this stuff to get "the sniper rifle", like it was some strange, rare and coveted artifact. Didn't Monroe take over an military installation? There should be plenty of those rifles around, no?


I thought that entire scene was too convoluted. There was no need to use the jury rigged gun. Just shoot the warden with the crossbow.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

netringer said:


> 90% of the shows aren't 90% nonsense like this one.....


Really?! REALLY?!?!? I prefer to disagree....

Plus....I wouldn't say this show is 90 percent nonsense. A large part of it is about human reaction and interaction following the event...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mattack said:


> Oh, I guess that's why I didn't notice him after that!! heh heh.
> 
> I have to go reread the imdb list for the uncle again. He looks REALLY familiar, but when I looked last week, I didn't recognize him obviously as "oh, the guy from THAT show".


He was in E.T.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

morac said:


> I thought that entire scene was too convoluted. There was no need to use the jury rigged gun. Just shoot the warden with the crossbow.


The point of getting close was to gain access to the rifle. If they fired an arrow from a distance, then one of the other guards could have grabbed the rife and started shooting. And they made that point pretty clear that the rifle gave them a big advantage against swords and arrows.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Polcamilla said:


> Okay.....so my thoughts on the show.
> 
> There were a LOT of sad-eyed closeups of the girl (Clarice? Claire? Christine?) regarding the fate of the bounty hunter. Really? I mean....REALLY?? She's lived the last 15 years in a fairly dog-eat-dog society and she doesn't know that the easiest way to dispose of someone who is threatening you is to kill them? She talks her uncle out of killing the guy outright so he locks him up in a boxcar instead. Putting aside the fact that he clearly did a crappy job of it (as the bounty hunter seemed to be maybe ten minutes behind them by the time they reached the city du jour), she's traded a quick and fairly painless death for a slow and miserable death by dehydration/starvation trapped in the boxcar. Gee....THAT'S more merciful.
> 
> ...


The penalty for having a gun was death. So what would the law be for using a gun, death again?? Those laws covered everything. If you used a gun you were already in possession of a gun which is punishable by death. Having a law against firing a gun would be redundant with those other laws in effect.

Now it would be different if the penalty for the other laws was incarceration. Then it would make sense to have a law against firing a gun and that penalty could be death. But with the penalty for the other laws being death, there is zero reason to have a law for firing a gun.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> The point of getting close was to gain access to the rifle. If they fired an arrow from a distance, then one of the other guards could have grabbed the rife and started shooting. And they made that point pretty clear that the rifle gave them a big advantage against swords and arrows.


They mentioned swords. They said nothing about arrows. Also the warden was off by himself on horseback. It wasn't until the other officers brought Charlie to the warden, that he was near the other officers.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

eddyj said:


> So all this stuff to get "the sniper rifle", like it was some strange, rare and coveted artifact. Didn't Monroe take over an military installation? There should be plenty of those rifles around, no?


The plot requires it.

Now they'll lead into the long-term Hail Mary plot of saga the brave motley band of patriots fighting the REVOLUTION, silly!

How about the militia squad that has a dozen of guys with only swords maybe 4 guys with guns heading to the song of the gunshot and getting a guy shot?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> The penalty for having a gun was death. So what would the law be for using a gun, death again?? Those laws covered everything. If you used a gun you were already in possession of a gun which is punishable by death. Having a law against firing a gun would be redundant with those other laws in effect. ...


How do they get the word out to populace what the law is when the actual government "collapsed?" in days?


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

eddyj said:


> So all this stuff to get "the sniper rifle", like it was some strange, rare and coveted artifact. Didn't Monroe take over an military installation? There should be plenty of those rifles around, no?


I would think Monroe taking over a military installation would make sniper rifles pretty rare for everybody besides Monroe and his people. 



morac said:


> I thought that entire scene was too convoluted. There was no need to use the jury rigged gun. Just shoot the warden with the crossbow.


Have we ever even seen Charlie use that bow she carries around?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Jeeters said:


> Have we ever even seen Charlie use that bow she carries around?


In the pilot, her uncle Miles is battling 4 dudes, she shoots one in the back, which happened to be the only moment when Miles was seriously in danger of getting hit with a sword. Good thing she was there. whew.

We don't actually see her use it, we see the arrow appear in the guys back, then cut to her holding the crossbow.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

netringer said:


> How do they get the word out to populace what the law is when the actual government "collapsed?" in days?


It's been 15 years since the collapse of civilization. Although I don't knwo how long the Militia government has been around. But they made it clear that the people knew that having a gun is illegal. Plus they mentioned that people come around to collect taxes as well. So the people know. And if they didn't, ignorance is no excuse. The penalty would be the same, just like it is now.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Jeeters said:


> I would think Monroe taking over a military installation would make sniper rifles pretty rare for everybody besides Monroe and his people.


The impression I got was that the sniper rifle was rare/unique even for them. As in no one else has one. Which matches the whole thing that the militia seems to have only antique guns, for the most part. They should be flush with modern weapons.

Not to mention that a sniper rifle seems like the wrong weapon to have for guard duty in the first place.

I guess I'll just ignore one more inconsistent thing, if I am to watch this.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

I'll preface this by saying, yes I know it's a show and they can do whatever they want, but so can I, which includes turning off the show because it is stupid.

This plot device they are using with the power being out and physics being "broken" is really getting on my nerves.

I can suspend my disbelief that all electric power being out is related to a man made event, implausible as that may seem. However I cannot understand the complete lack of steam powered technology.

Are we to believe that steam power doesn't work either? That's just crazy.

I know the show is just starting and they haven't had a lot of time to go over exactly what works and doesn't work in the world, but I would expect that steam power would work, and that the new militia governments would go to great lengths to project their power through control of the railways, but steam power's complete absence from the show is a big problem for me.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

SeanC said:


> .............
> 
> Are we to believe that steam power doesn't work either? That's just crazy.
> 
> ..........


That is no more crazy than the other things not working. It's a Tv show and Tv shows have never followed reality. It was true when I watched TV forty years ago and it's true today, as well as fifty , sixty years ago. Even shows that appear to be realistic still take many liberties that don't occur in the real world. This is nothing new. If I pointed out every time something was unrealistic in a show, I would never be watching anything. It's just entertainment. Pointing out all the unrealistic things defeats the purpose.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I think we need to treat this as a Fantasy show, where there is magic that makes some things conveniently stop working, while others work. The amulets are clearly magical devices that not only allow electrical devices to work locally (like the computer and the light) but also make whole networks now work (since the computers are connecting somehow). So yes, this is just a Fantasy, with essentially no rules other than "magic".


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> That is no more crazy than the other things not working.


I disagree, it's WAY more crazy, and hence barring a decent fictional explanation, stupid.

Look an EMP, which this event definitely was not, will take out most electronic equipment, and take it out with finality, never to work again. But you would still be able to generate electricity if you hooked up a car alternator to a steam engine.

To me it appears that they have their plot device, electricity does not work, and they are writing the story to fit that, but ultimately they need to go someplace that makes sense. The physics is broken idea is extremely weak. Hell if physics were that broken, then anything would be in play. All the atoms of our galaxy could lose cohesion at any second scattering every piece of matter in it out into the infinity of the universe. How would that be for a series finale?


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Polcamilla said:


> Not to be a cynic, but after two weeks ONE of the following would have happened:
> 
> 1) order and supply infrastructure restored making water available again
> 2) people will be evacuated to a place that has available water and food
> 3) people who have used their two week supply will have outlived everyone who had no water and died of thirst and those surviving can begin to capture/purify the available water to drink without having to fight with others for the supply


I love your rose colored glasses and positive outlook but I don't think there is any reality in what you are saying if this really happened.

I'd say a more probable outcome is that looters would have overrun your house and killed you and anybody inside.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

I think you'd be surprised what things still require something electronic in it, to work....and in this TV world, that means it wouldn't work.

Plus...I'm sure there aren't a lot of steam/coal engines just sitting on tracks ready to roll at a moments notice. More probable that they are stuck in museums or in display status. 

plus....who the hell is still around that would know how to actually run them?


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

eddyj said:


> I think we need to treat this as a Fantasy show, where there is magic that makes some things conveniently stop working, while others work. The amulets are clearly magical devices that not only allow electrical devices to work locally (like the computer and the light) but also make whole networks now work (since the computers are connecting somehow). So yes, this is just a Fantasy, with essentially no rules other than *"plot device"*.


FYP


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

pmyers said:


> I think you'd be surprised what things still require something electronic in it, to work....and in this TV world, that means it wouldn't work.
> 
> Plus...I'm sure there aren't a lot of steam/coal engines just sitting on tracks ready to roll at a moments notice. More probable that they are stuck in museums or in display status.
> 
> plus....who the hell is still around that would know how to actually run them?


They haven't been without electricity for a week, it's been 15 years. There are many working steam engines, they are all over the place, and not all of them are outside. In the space of 15 years I would expect that steam technology would be all the rage, unless it is not working as well which I expect them to say at some point, and then I can be done with this show.

Hell it's not even just about steam, a water wheel and an alternator would get you electricity very quickly and could be setup with some wood and duct tape.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

My wife says I'm a hater, we no longer discuss this show.

She did bring up one good point regarding why maybe we haven't seen any trains. We don't know how large of an area this militia covers, and perhaps there are steam locomotives out there, but moving them out of Monroe Land (yes I'm coining the phrase) into another militia/resistance controlled area means you risk losing that locomotive and the cargo on it. They may be using them but only in some areas to move food and supplies from within Monroe Land.

I think we need to stop thinking that the U.S. as a whole exists, and the country is now made up of many, many smaller countries where counties and or small states are now controlled by smaller governments ran by republics or dictatorships, like Monroe Land.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

And another thing, why are the rebels so incredibly stupid as to have a readily found flag (took the guy 3 seconds to find it), or a tattoo of the flag? Are they trying to be caught and killed?


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

robojerk said:


> My wife says I'm a hater, we no longer discuss this show.
> 
> She did bring up one good point regarding why maybe we haven't seen any trains. We don't know how large of an area this militia covers, and perhaps there are steam locomotives out there, but moving them out of Monroe Land (yes I'm coining the phrase) into another militia/resistance controlled area means you risk losing that locomotive and the cargo on it. They may be using them but only in some areas to move food and supplies from within Monroe Land.
> 
> I think we need to stop thinking that the U.S. as a whole exists, and the country is now made up of many, many smaller countries where counties and or small states are now controlled by smaller governments ran by republics or dictatorships, like Monroe Land.


I think that is a good point and very probable. We haven't seen but a little sliver of the country.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

eddyj said:


> And another thing, why are the rebels so incredibly stupid as to have a readily found flag (took the guy 3 seconds to find it), or a tattoo of the flag? Are they trying to be caught and killed?


See, everyone in this show is exceptionally stupid.


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## voripteth (Apr 9, 2003)

A serious injection of Steam Punk is required for this show to survive!


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

morac said:


> 1) How? Unless you live near a stream or river there is no fresh water. You could collect rain, assuming it rained (it didn't rain the entire month of July this year in my area).
> 2) Again how? You think the Government is somehow going to round up several hundred thousand horses for people to ride on? Remember the normal evacuation methods and food distribution methods won't work.
> 3) Again, that assumes you live near a natural source of food and water. Many people these days do not. Most people in Las Vegas for example would probably be dead within the course of a week.


All of the above was an either/or to explain why the disaster preparedness recommandation is a 2 week supply. Obviously if #1 and #2 AREN'T viable options (like in the scenario in the show), then #3 is the most likely outcome. In that case, 2 weeks is enough of a supply to outlive the rest of the competition.

In all the previous natural disasters in the US, #1 or #2 happened within two weeks so people didn't die of thirst.

Most people DO live near a source of water, or they'd be living in a place with no vegetation and no animal life. We happen to live on the banks of a creek. It's small, but there is water in it year round. Look at the geography of your area and there SHOULD be a water source within walking distance, unless you're in an actual desert (in which case, you're going to have some difficulty). Even in places like Arizona, most of the year there is a brief rainstorm every day or two. You just have to be prepared to collect the water and to purify it by some means.

If there is NO rainfall and you're not near a source of running water, then you can use other methods to collect dew. This is a good short term solution but long term, you're going to want to move so that you're within easy access of water. If the water is completely contaminated for some reason (think nuclear holocaust), well....you're screwed. Hope you enjoyed your life!


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

SeanC said:


> Hell it's not even just about steam, a water wheel and an alternator would get you electricity very quickly and could be setup with some wood and duct tape.


Electricity itself doesn't work, so you couldn't generate it with a waterwheel and alternator. If you could, they'd still have power from all the hydroelectric dams.

Dave


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

robojerk said:


> We don't know how large of an area this militia covers, and perhaps there are steam locomotives out there, but moving them out of Monroe Land (yes I'm coining the phrase) into another militia/resistance controlled area means you risk losing that locomotive and the cargo on it. They may be using them but only in some areas to move food and supplies from within Monroe Land.


Getting around with steam locomotives is going to be pretty difficult until someone figures out a way to remove all the dead diesel locomotives and freight cars from all the thousands of trains that are stalled on the tracks all over the country. You'd need a pretty large, steam powered portable rail crane to do that, and they no longer exist.

Dave


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

pmyers said:


> I love your rose colored glasses and positive outlook but I don't think there is any reality in what you are saying if this really happened.
> 
> I'd say a more probable outcome is that looters would have overrun your house and killed you and anybody inside.


I'm sorry. I wasn't clear. What I was addressing is the common two week's supply of water recommendation and NOT correct survival for this specific situation. The reason why a two week supply is ample in an ACTUAL emergency is that the vast majority of the time, either the infrastructure will be restored or the victims of the disaster will be evacuated to a place that has the infrastructure to support them.

In the actual collapse of civilization, I expect that the third option (use your water to outlive the competition, then get more) is going to be the most viable option. I DO expect looting and fighting for resources and I DO expect that a large number of people who were prepared will die. It's just, 100% of people who are not prepared will also die.

One of our neighbors is a local CERT member. We've talked about stockpiling medication in case of emergency and about how defensible our little corner of the neighborhood is should anyone attack us trying to get our emergency supplies.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

mrdbdigital said:


> Getting around with steam locomotives is going to be pretty difficult until someone figures out a way to remove all the dead diesel locomotives and freight cars from all the thousands of trains that are stalled on the tracks all over the country. You'd need a pretty large, steam powered portable rail crane to do that, and they no longer exist.
> 
> Dave


I made this point upthread. Apparently nobody wants to talk about it.

Later I'll post my pics from Travel Town so people can see the scale we're talking about when we mention getting a steam engine back on the tracks and transporting goods by rail.

It took 20+ people to move a helicopter, right? Though, actually, they seemed to be just dragging it. You'd think they'd at LEAST rig up the rolling log bed setup the Egyptians used to move the giant rocks for the pyramids. So maybe they are technological morons.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

mrdbdigital said:


> Getting around with steam locomotives is going to be pretty difficult until someone figures out a way to remove all the dead diesel locomotives and freight cars from all the thousands of trains that are stalled on the tracks all over the country. You'd need a pretty large, steam powered portable rail crane to do that, and they no longer exist.
> 
> Dave


Couldn't you push\pull them off the main tracks with the steam engine?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Jeeters said:


> I would think Monroe taking over a military installation would make sniper rifles pretty rare for everybody besides Monroe and his people.
> 
> Have we ever even seen Charlie use that bow she carries around?





robojerk said:


> In the pilot, her uncle Miles is battling 4 dudes, she shoots one in the back, which happened to be the only moment when Miles was seriously in danger of getting hit with a sword. Good thing she was there. whew.


I think it was a closing ring of 3 dudes, who are chivalrous enough to pause the swinging of their swords while Miles figures out who shot the 3rd guy.



robojerk said:


> We don't actually see her use it, we see the arrow appear in the guys back, then cut to her holding the crossbow.


Another piece of evidence that they musta added "The Hunger Games" hook to the pilot at the last minute. She didn't use the crossbow in episode 2.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Polcamilla said:


> It took 20+ people to move a helicopter, right? Though, actually, they seemed to be just dragging it. You'd think they'd at LEAST rig up the rolling log bed setup the Egyptians used to move the giant rocks for the pyramids. So maybe they are technological morons.


Physics is broken, things can't "roll" anymore, duh.


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Polcamilla said:


> It took 20+ people to move a helicopter, right? Though, actually, they seemed to be just dragging it. You'd think they'd at LEAST rig up the rolling log bed setup the Egyptians used to move the giant rocks for the pyramids. So maybe they are technological morons.


Or, since the people dragging it were prisoners, that's their idea of punishment. If you commit a misdemeanor, you at least get wheels, but felony criminals have to drag things.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Polcamilla said:


> It took 20+ people to move a helicopter, right? Though, actually, they seemed to be just dragging it. You'd think they'd at LEAST rig up the rolling log bed setup the Egyptians used to move the giant rocks for the pyramids. So maybe they are technological morons.


It was actually on a wheeled trailer.


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Polcamilla said:


> I'm sorry. I wasn't clear. What I was addressing is the common two week's supply of water recommendation and NOT correct survival for this specific situation. The reason why a two week supply is ample in an ACTUAL emergency is that the vast majority of the time, either the infrastructure will be restored or the victims of the disaster will be evacuated to a place that has the infrastructure to support them.
> 
> In the actual collapse of civilization, I expect that the third option (use your water to outlive the competition, then get more) is going to be the most viable option. I DO expect looting and fighting for resources and I DO expect that a large number of people who were prepared will die. It's just, 100% of people who are not prepared will also die.
> 
> One of our neighbors is a local CERT member. We've talked about stockpiling medication in case of emergency and about how defensible our little corner of the neighborhood is should anyone attack us trying to get our emergency supplies.


Ok Gotcha. I understand what you are saying now and that you do realize there is a difference between a temporary loss of power scenario and this show where NOTHING electrical is working. The outcomes of those 2 scenarios would be very different.


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

robojerk said:


> Couldn't you push\pull them off the main tracks with the steam engine?


There's limited siding storage capacity on most mainlines, except near the major railroad yards. You've got to remember that some trains, like coal trains, are usually over a mile long. It would take a long time to clear the tracks. There are around 6,000 trains in motion on your typical day. That's a lot of tonnage to move around with a few, old steam locomotives.

At least you could burn the coal in the steam locomotives as you moved the cars off the mainline, but you have to have massive quantities of water as well. Steam locomotives don't recycle water. Not convenient when you don't have electric pumps to fill up the boilers, and you no longer have water tanks alongside the tracks. Back when I used to ride steam excursions, the engine's water needs were frequently met by the local fire department pumper trucks when it needed water. Those wouldn't be working in this scenario.

Could be done, but it would take forever. And, we're talking grimy, back breaking work. Who are you going to get to do it?

Dave


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

This thread is hilarious.......

Anyway, I'm into the show so far. Some of the comments are kind of ridiculous to me ("first we have computer lady talking to god knows who, and now we have Randall to worry about??? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?!1/1?" lol, it's a mystery show... these are MYSTERIES. I'm not comparing the show to Lost but I gotta think that if someone watched that with the same attitude, theyw ouldn't have made it through the two hour pilot... "But who is that? Why is that guy doing that? what is that in the trees? I hate this show...". 

This show juuuuust started... if you don't like certain aspects that's one thing, but complaining because there are "too many" mysteries and "the plot sucks", when we don't even know where it's going, seems premature. Things get revealed over time (as on every other serialized show). There are a lot of questions at this point, but I'm surprised people are so quick to dismiss the show because of that. You're claiming things are due to bad, thoughtless writing, but we haven't seen enough to know one way or another. 

I don't know, I'm starting to agree with the idea that people have ZERO patience. There's no such thing as giving a show time to tell it's story. Not saying this show is incredible but at the same time, some of the complaints about it are dumb given it's only been on for two weeks.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

mrdazzo7 said:


> lol, it's a mystery show... these are MYSTERIES. I'm not comparing the show to Lost but I gotta think that if someone watched that with the same attitude, theyw ouldn't have made it through the two hour pilot... "But who is that? Why is that guy doing that? what is that in the trees? I hate this show...".


Battlestar Galactica was a mystery show too. The opening credits promised there was a plan, but it turned out there really wasn't and we wasted a lot of time trying to make a coherent picture out of something they were just making up haphazardly as they went along.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Not saying this show is incredible but at the same time, some of the complaints about it are dumb given it's only been on for two weeks.


That's true.

But a lot of the complaints are dead-on. The ones having to do with how stupid everybody is, the ones having to do with how utterly devoid of a basic understanding of human society the show is in how this event unfolded, and while the jury is still out, probably the ones having to do with the show's apparent complete and invincible ignorance of basic scientific principles.

What it would need to maybe overcome all that is compelling characters and gripping stories, which at least got me through a couple seasons of Battlestar (I know it got some people all the way through), and Lost almost to the very end. But so far, I haven't seen much of anything here.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

I wonder if compressed air guns don't work too, or if they just ran out of compressed air.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Hunter Green said:


> I wonder if compressed air guns don't work too, or if they just ran out of compressed air.


Well, when DC fell, that eliminated a major source of compressed air. Or was that hot air?


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Hunter Green said:


> I wonder if compressed air guns don't work too, or if they just ran out of compressed air.


 How can they produce compressed air without a power for the compressor?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jeeters said:


> How can they produce compressed air without a power for the compressor?


You keep blowing air in and never let it out, silly!

Sure, you'll pass out a few times, but it will be well worth it.


----------



## GAViewer (Oct 18, 2007)

Jeeters said:


> How can they produce compressed air without a power for the compressor?


Any of the following: steam engine, water wheel, or plan old muscle power on a pump.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

A foot pump works quite well for compressing air - and bonus, it's not considered a firearm.

I agree with many of the posters here - they need to stop with the stupid sword fights.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

classicX said:


> A foot pump works quite well for compressing air - and bonus, it's not considered a firearm.
> 
> I agree with many of the posters here - they need to stop with the stupid sword fights.


But with no firearms allowed, wouldn't people resort back to swords and knifes? I sure would!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pmyers said:


> But with no firearms allowed, wouldn't people resort back to swords and knifes? I sure would!


The Guy in "No Country for Old Men" would disagree (and shoot you in the head as well)!


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

pmyers said:


> But with no firearms allowed, wouldn't people resort back to swords and knifes? I sure would!


Then I'd shoot you with my crossbow from a safe distance of 100 feet or so. Bringing a sword to a projectile fight, for shame. 

Are air guns outlawed? .25 or .50 cal airguns pack some serious punch.


----------



## classicX (May 10, 2006)

pmyers said:


> But with no firearms allowed, wouldn't people resort back to swords and knifes? I sure would!


Except no one would engage in the long drawn out sword fights that they seem to have every 15 minutes.

This show is teetering the edge for me. I'll keep the SP just to find out what the explanation for the power being off finally is, although that won't happen until the end of the season.

I sure hope it will explain why he had to download some sort of information to his little electricity-working-field-thingy to get it work, and why he wouldn't have had that downloaded already, since he obviously knew what was coming.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I could post a longer message but I'll untagged spoiler it for you, because Revolution is so damned cliche'd and predictable.

Weak guess: I'm guessing that Randall is the guy who tried to steal the food, because nobody is ever really dead. At that, the guy heads out the first week to violently steal food from a family but makes sure to put on his suit and tie first.

Aaron the required token fat nerd will puzzle and puzzle and then finally accidently discover that if he PRESSES ON THE BIG FRICKIN BLUE JEWEL on the amulet, the dingus will eject the USB key. This will also magically power up stuff nearby just as it makes whasernames ragged PC parts (no chance she should have a nice iMac) and light bulb work. The sign of power surge for Aaron will be when English broad's iPhone comes to life. 

Aaron will them pull out his old Macbook Air which will light up, and he'll plug the USB key into it. The key will download all of the top secret plans for the power robbing nanobots or whatever that Ben was working on in his UI lab, which Ben copied at the last moment. Now we have the long plot shlog of "will Aaron figure out how to undo the (power robbing.) And then Monroe hears that Aaron is close to figuring it out so he sends his goons to capture poor Aaron.

Consider who dumb it is that SHE has her own amulet but Ben told Aaron to take his to her in another action that could have happened anytime during the past 15 plus years.

In the meantime Nora and Miles meet up with her patriot buddies and mounts the rebel army against Monroe. Battle, Battle, sword play. Crossbow girl fires an arrow.

Giancarlo is not totally a bad guy.

Yada yada. Cliffhanger Cliffhanger. Twist. Rising music.

I just saved you 11 hours of your life wasted.

You're welcome.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I dunno if I can take much more of this.


Still too slow to develop the story of what's going on with computer lady. Are we gonna see the person she is talking to anytime soon?


----------



## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

I was just watching the re-feed tonight. I didn't notice before, but during the opening montage, the Golden Gate is sinking right into the bay. Imagine that.

Man, fizzics is a biotch.


----------



## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

RGM1138 said:


> I was just watching the re-feed tonight. I didn't notice before, but during the opening montage, the Golden Gate is sinking right into the bay. Imagine that.


At least that's more realistic than the St. Louis Arch standing with part of its' top blown out.

Dave


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Another predcition:

JJ and the usual gang of idiot wirters will read all of the criticisms and insert magical hand waiving in the show to address them.

Watch for:

"Coal and oil stopped burning..."
"...remember that the nuclear reactors went cold because fission wouldn't work."
"That was before the gun powder factories exploded." (Thus a shortage leading to banning guns.)
"We still haven't figured out why water won't boil." (Thus no steam engines.)
 "Hot air stopped rising." (No hot air ballons.)
"We were so lucky that it had that side effect of making vegetation grow 10x faster." (Weeds overgrowing everything.)
"....when the Monroe militia confiscated all of the bicycles to make weapons."
"All of the pigeons died from bird flu."


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

I got bored halfway through this episode but the ending picked up for me. I don't understand they they don't have steam locomotives.


----------



## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

Has this show explicitly said none of those things work or just that electricity is gone? I don't really want to defend the show, but thinking about it I could see no steam/coal powered engines or hot air balloons being mentioned in the first two episodes. If this really happened, how many people out there would actually have the knowledge to make that work (not just how it works) as well as the resources? Now, how many of those people with the knowledge have survived the immediate effects (looting/rioting/disease) let alone the long term effects. 

I imagine if this show lasts, we would eventually meet small pockets of people that have this tech working. We only met a small group of people and after 15 years that's an entire generation that has grown up with little to no knowledge of electricity and how things were.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

You steam loco people are hilarious. How many operational steam locos that are on existing working tracks, do you think there are in the real world...or how many people that would be left (remember mass population loss) would have the knowledge to work them...? And let's not forget that the various militas seem to control everything.

Not to mention the fact that we have only seen a sliver of the population so there very might be some trains out there.


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## That Don Guy (Mar 13, 2003)

pmyers said:


> You steam loco people are hilarious. How many operational steam locos that are on existing working tracks, do you think there are in the real world...or how many people that would be left (remember mass population loss) would have the knowledge to work them...? And let's not forget that the various militas seem to control everything.
> 
> Not to mention the fact that we have only seen a sliver of the population so there very might be some trains out there.


Also, everything else seems to have deteriorated, so how much of the existing tracks is still capable of carrying trains? Don't forget that pretty much every bridge is now out, so getting trains across rivers is impossible.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

RGM1138 said:


> I was just watching the re-feed tonight. I didn't notice before, but during the opening montage, the Golden Gate is sinking right into the bay. Imagine that.
> 
> Man, fizzics is a biotch.


You should rewatch it again, then. That wasn't the bridge, it was the airplane that crashed *into* the bridge.


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## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

JETarpon said:


> You should rewatch it again, then. That wasn't the bridge, it was the airplane that crashed *into* the bridge.


Yeah, I guess that is a plane. I don't have either of those eps anymore, except on NBC.com and they won't play past the prologue.

When did that scene actually happen?


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I'm sure after all this talk a Steam Train will suddenly pop up in one of the future episodes. Although it will have probably been planned before anyone was talking about it on the forums. We've only seen two episodes and a very tiny part of this fictional world.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

RGM1138 said:


> Yeah, I guess that is a plane. I don't have either of those eps anymore, except on NBC.com and they won't play past the prologue.
> 
> When did that scene actually happen?


It didn't. The opening montage talks about the fall of civilization, and shows scenes with time lapse plant growing to convey time. All we ever saw in the first episode was the lights going out around the characters, and the view from space.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

JETarpon said:


> It didn't. The opening montage talks about the fall of civilization, and shows scenes with time lapse plant growing to convey time. All we ever saw in the first episode was the lights going out around the characters, and the view from space.


They did also show multiple planes just falling from the sky and then exploding when they hit the ground.


----------



## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> I'm sure after all this talk a Steam Train will suddenly pop up in one of the future episodes. Although it will have probably been planned before anyone was talking about it on the forums. We've only seen two episodes and a very tiny part of this fictional world.


Maybe it will be driver by Doc Brown too.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

pmyers said:


> They did also show multiple planes just falling from the sky and then exploding when they hit the ground.


Yes, but weren't they all local? We didn't have any west coast shots (daylight, before sunset, since it was already dark in Chicago).


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## kettledrum (Nov 17, 2003)

pmyers said:


> You steam loco people are hilarious. How many operational steam locos that are on existing working tracks, do you think there are in the real world...or how many people that would be left (remember mass population loss) would have the knowledge to work them...? And let's not forget that the various militas seem to control everything.
> 
> Not to mention the fact that we have only seen a sliver of the population so there very might be some trains out there.


I've ridden on this one going to the Indiana State Fair. I'm sure there are a bunch of others out there in various conditions. From reading the wiki page though, I need to be sending in donations so this one can be completely restored and be ready for the apocalypse.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Steam engines? Diesel engines don't require electricity to run.


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> Steam engines? Diesel engines don't require electricity to run.


True, but when was the last time you saw one of those you could actually hand crank?


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

It would have to be an older diesel. Most modern auto/truck engines use EFI. No electricity to run the injectors, no dieseling.

--Carlos V.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

I've ridden on a working steam engine train too, but generally speaking they are on separate, isolated track systems. Moving one of them to the continent-straddling rail network would be quite an interesting challenge.

The water supply issue mentioned upthread is also a pretty big challenge. Those things require a lot of water and it has to be in a lot of tanks along the route. You can't use another train to carry the water there because what's going to carry its water? This is not insurmountable, just takes a lot of manpower. It's just bigger than people realize.

Let's not even get started on the different rail gauges (widths).


----------



## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

vman41 said:


> Battlestar Galactica was a mystery show too. The opening credits promised there was a plan, but it turned out there really wasn't and we wasted a lot of time trying to make a coherent picture out of something they were just making up haphazardly as they went along.


At least that was compelling and interesting for more than the first 2 minutes of the first show...............

This is just terrible, not even the first episode gelled with itself, terrible acting, complete predictability, same old cliches.

When are the networks going to learn that you can't use the exact same formula of angst and "don't kill him" (ep 2) and sloppy crap that they use in sit coms?


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Beating the dead horse...

There are hundreds of stationary steam engines in the collection at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI and Jay Leno has a few and several WORKING STEAM CARS including some Stanley Steamers. He has a steam mechanic on his staff in his garage.

It's not like once we stopped using steam or diesel or water wheels we had a brain delete to forget how they work and destroyed the designs. 

You could bootstrap: Use stationary steam engines to power metal lathes and mills to make more steam engines...and weapons, of course.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Unbeliever said:


> It would have to be an older diesel. Most modern auto/truck engines use EFI. No electricity to run the injectors, no dieseling.
> 
> --Carlos V.


Sure, but we're talking about firing up steam locomotives, right?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Polcamilla said:


> All of the above was an either/or to explain why the disaster preparedness recommandation is a 2 week supply. Obviously if #1 and #2 AREN'T viable options (like in the scenario in the show), then #3 is the most likely outcome. In that case, 2 weeks is enough of a supply to outlive the rest of the competition.
> 
> In all the previous natural disasters in the US, #1 or #2 happened within two weeks so people didn't die of thirst.
> 
> ...


BZZZZZZZT. Here in the Phoenix area, it's not uncommon at all to go 90+ days without any rain. And often, you'll get a small rainstorm and then go another 90+ days without any. We get lots of rain during the "monsoon" season of mid-July to late August, but outside of that, rain is pretty scarce.


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## GAViewer (Oct 18, 2007)

Adam1115 said:


> Steam engines? Diesel engines don't require electricity to run.


Almost all modern trains are pulled by Diesel-electric locomotives. A diesel engine powers a generator and the electricity powers electric motors tied to the wheels. How Diesel Locomotives Work.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

netringer said:


> Beating the dead horse...
> 
> There are hundreds of stationary steam engines in the collection at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI and Jay Leno has a few and several WORKING STEAM CARS including some Stanley Steamers. He has a steam mechanic on his staff in his garage.
> 
> ...


And beating it even further....how do you get those HUGE trains on to real working tracks and out of a museum...and with a MASSIVE population loss, what's the chances of Leno's train guy or any of the other handfull of people still being alive or have any interests in trains?


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> BZZZZZZZT. Here in the Phoenix area, it's not uncommon at all to go 90+ days without any rain. And often, you'll get a small rainstorm and then go another 90+ days without any. We get lots of rain during the "monsoon" season of mid-July to late August, but outside of that, rain is pretty scarce.


^This! We're not Phoenix, and we normally get quite a bit of rain (excluding this summer's Great Drought), but we can also get stretches with little or no rain. We do live reasonably close to a river, but it's not remotely drinkable, and I doubt many people would have the means or knowhow to make it drinkable, especially without electricity.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Hunter Green said:


> Let's not even get started on the different rail gauges (widths).


Half-way through your post I was thinking just this. From what I've heard, east and west coast rail systems used a different gauge. I don't recall if one or the other was made the standard, or a new gauge was made the standard. What I do know is the railway museum in SC has a steam engine that uses neither. They also bring in a steam engine for special occasions, so I'm thinking there is at least some connection to the main railways for some of the museums.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

pmyers said:


> And beating it even further....how do you get those HUGE trains on to real working tracks and out of a museum...and with a MASSIVE population loss, what's the chances of Leno's train guy or any of the other handfull of people still being alive or have any interests in trains?


I said steam engines, not steam locomotives. 
http://www.thehenryford.org/museum/america.aspx

The Ford museam has steam locomotives, too. They ran tracks and removed a wall to add the biggest locomotive ever. http://www.thehenryford.org/museum/transportation.aspx

Somehow they managed to move these things at the turn of the 20th century. Hard to imagine that they built the pyramids and Gothic churches long before there were construction cranes.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Man, you must be a lot of fun at parties.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

pmyers said:


> how do you get those HUGE trains on to real working tracks and out of a museum...


Take apart some unneeded track and use the pieces to lay sections of track between the desired track and the museum.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

netringer said:


> I said steam engines, not steam locomotives.
> http://www.thehenryford.org/museum/america.aspx
> 
> The Ford museam has steam locomotives, too. They ran tracks and removed a wall to add the biggest locomotive ever. http://www.thehenryford.org/museum/transportation.aspx
> ...


With enough slaves or slave wages you can do alot when you don't need to worry about the health of the worker.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

netringer said:


> Beating the dead horse...
> 
> There are hundreds of stationary steam engines in the collection at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI and Jay Leno has a few and several WORKING STEAM CARS including some Stanley Steamers. He has a steam mechanic on his staff in his garage.
> ...


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LKyZf52geQ[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g1fBt1e-tI#t=5m13s[/media]


----------



## omnibus (Sep 25, 2001)

If this show is broadly characterized as science fiction. IIRC some articles have branded it that way, then why not suspend the laws of physics like Star Trek and all the rest do


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> Sure, but we're talking about firing up steam locomotives, right?


I was responding to this sentence:



Adam1115 said:


> Steam engines? *Diesel engines don't require electricity to run.*


--Carlos V.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

omnibus said:


> If this show is broadly characterized as science fiction. IIRC some articles have branded it that way, then why not suspend the laws of physics like Star Trek and all the rest do


Good science fiction does not "suspend the laws of physics". Good science fiction makes one or two small changes or assumptions, and then everything else follows logically from that.

Now Fantasy does usually make drastic changes to the laws of physics. But even Fantasy should have a set of rules and logic to the way the world works. Inconsistencies in the "laws of magic" are just as bad to a fantasy story as inconsistencies in science are to a science fiction story.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

omnibus said:


> If this show is broadly characterized as science fiction. IIRC some articles have branded it that way, then why not suspend the laws of physics like Star Trek and all the rest do


Star Trek is centuries in the future where technologies are much more advanced and the setting lends itself to less scrutiny as a result since we are less familiar with it. Revolution is set closer to present day so we are much more familiar with the capabilities of the society that is affected, so the explanations have to be more feasible due to the relative familiarity of the setting.


----------



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

sean67854 said:


> True, but when was the last time you saw one of those you could actually hand crank?


There's always a manual transmission and a large hill...


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

pmyers said:


> And beating it even further....how do you get those HUGE trains on to real working tracks and out of a museum...and with a MASSIVE population loss, what's the chances of Leno's train guy or any of the other handfull of people still being alive or have any interests in trains?


Jay Leno and his train guy were killed in the first week by angry Conan fans who blamed him for the Apocalypse.


----------



## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

So if the laws of physics have changed with regard to electricity, what other laws have changed?
It's gotta be something, because for the life of me i can't figure out how that backwards crossbow can possibly work.


----------



## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

sean67854 said:


> So if the laws of physics have changed with regard to electricity, what other laws have changed?
> It's gotta be something, because for the life of me i can't figure out how that backwards crossbow can possibly work.












http://www.scorpyd.com/


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> With enough slaves or slave wages you can do alot when you don't need to worry about the health of the worker.


You think there would be a labor shortage? "I won't do manual work for food. I'm in management."

In my Mom's tiny home town they raised the church steeple and clock at the top of the steep hill in the late 1800s by using teams of horses and long, long ropes. Stuff that we used to know how to do.


----------



## aaronw (Apr 13, 2001)

As far as gauge (spacing between rails) goes, this is 98% of the time not an issue because the places where they use different gauges are generally geographically isolated from one another. Anyways, anything in the USA (with the exception of non-functional or isolated railways (coal mountains, etc) is "standard" gauge.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Even if they found an old locomotive with wheels for a different gauge, couldn't they dismantle a locomotive with the correct wheels and put those onto the steam locomotive?

Obviously the ability to lift the stuff off the tracks and reassemble things would be very difficult, but as pointed out several times in this thread, people built all kinds of huge structures before the industrial age so it should be able to be accomplished without electricity.

Having said that, I'm guessing we'll find out there's a reason steam power and hydro power and all these alternate sources of energy won't work either, and all this discussion will have been moot.


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> ...Obviously the ability to lift the stuff off the tracks and reassemble things would be very difficult, but as pointed out several times in this thread, people built all kinds of huge structures before the industrial age so it should be able to be accomplished without electricity...


I think it's more about people are just struggling to survive and/or are hiding from the militia....In your examples they were either slaves or hired workers.


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

squint said:


> http://www.scorpyd.com/


 Okay so it's real. I was going to say that I still don't get it, but now that I can look at it and see how it's set up, i think i do get it now.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Hey. The critics get it.



> One might point out as well that humankind led a relatively civilized and technologically complicated existence before electric power and that the Industrial Revolution ran not on electricity but steam. There may be an answer to that embedded in some future episode, of course. And again, it will be a magic answer.
> 
> Ben, daughter Charlie (Tracy Spiridakos) and son Danny (Graham Rogers), an asthmatic hothead  not the best combination  are now living outside Chicago in a suburban cul-de-sac that seems to have wandered away from whatever tract it was a cul-de-sac in and settled itself far out in the country.
> ...
> ...


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

netringer said:


> I could post a longer message but I'll untagged spoiler it for you, because Revolution is so damned cliche'd and predictable.
> 
> Weak guess: I'm guessing that Randall is the guy who tried to steal the food, because nobody is ever really dead. At that, the guy heads out the first week to violently steal food from a family but makes sure to put on his suit and tie first.
> 
> ...


The only thing I don't like about the show is the crazy nitpicking by the viewers. I reply to you as only by example.

You actually took issue with a guy wearing a suit without having any idea where he was when the blackout occurred. That is beyond reaching for something to complain about. I would say that 70% of the issues raised here are in that same group of just reaching for something to complain about.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

netringer said:


> You think there would be a labor shortage? "I won't do manual work for food. I'm in management."


There is a labor shortage, but it's not people, it's draft animals. The horse and ox population is a lot smaller than it was in 1900, mechanization having eliminated the need for them, and most of those left would have died of dehydration in their stalls. I'm not sure that a task requiring teams of horses (the steeple example you gave) are possible, it's not clear if they have enough people left to form pull teams of sufficient size. You will note that only a few of the soldiers have horses, so it seems they're a scarce (as they should be) commodity.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

aaronw said:


> As far as gauge (spacing between rails) goes, this is 98% of the time not an issue because the places where they use different gauges are generally geographically isolated from one another. Anyways, anything in the USA (with the exception of non-functional or isolated railways (coal mountains, etc) is "standard" gauge.


Though wait, I thought I read in the newspaper that Caltrain and BART use different gauges, which put a wrench into any shared use for rails..


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

mattack said:


> Though wait, I thought I read in the newspaper that Caltrain and BART use different gauges, which put a wrench into any shared use for rails..


Caltrain and BART were deliberately designed to prevent interoperation with other rail systems.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> BZZZZZZZT. Here in the Phoenix area, it's not uncommon at all to go 90+ days without any rain. And often, you'll get a small rainstorm and then go another 90+ days without any. We get lots of rain during the "monsoon" season of mid-July to late August, but outside of that, rain is pretty scarce.


Well, also, Arizona/Nevada is the least viable part of the country to live in geographically. Phoenix wouldn't be a major city without electricity.

I guess when I visited, it was July/August and I thought the rainfall was the norm.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

allan said:


> ...and I doubt many people would have the means or knowhow to make it drinkable, especially without electricity.


Really? Boil and cool is beyond their abilities?


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

netringer said:


> Hard to imagine that they built the pyramids and Gothic churches long before there were construction cranes.


Not if you consider their timelines. These projects took decades, if not centuries. I don't have a LOT of examples, but off the top of my head:

St. Wenceslas Cathedral was started in the 1100s and finished around the turn of the 20th century. 

Westminster Abbey was (more or less) started in 1245 and finished around 1517.

...and for a post Industrial Revolution example, the Salt Lake Temple took exactly 40 years to build, starting in 1853 and finishing in 1893.

In THIS scenario, we have 15 years and, oh, 2% of the pre-Apocalypse population.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Even if they found an old locomotive with wheels for a different gauge, couldn't they dismantle a locomotive with the correct wheels and put those onto the steam locomotive?


Okay, I went and dug out my steam train pictures:










The boys in the picture are about 3 yrs. old.

Here's another picture with one of the smallest engines in the park. You can see the same boys plus one of the moms (in the black top right beside the engine) to give you a sense of the sizes.










When you're in the cab of engine, you're basically two stories up. Looking out the window, it's quite a long way down. One wheel on the topmost engine is approximately the same height as an adult male and solid steel. You don't just jack the engine up, pop off the wheels and slip different gauge wheels on.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Polcamilla said:


> In THIS scenario, we have 15 years and, oh, 2% of the pre-Apocalypse population.


Plus almost nobody trained in pre-modern building techniques, plus almost no infrastructure for pre-modern building materials acquisition Plus that population is, shall we say, generally not suited to pre-modern working conditions, both physically and psychologically.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

aaronw said:


> As far as gauge (spacing between rails) goes, this is 98% of the time not an issue because the places where they use different gauges are generally geographically isolated from one another. Anyways, anything in the USA (with the exception of non-functional or isolated railways (coal mountains, etc) is "standard" gauge.


The point is that some of the working steam engines we have today are, indeed, on those "non-functional or isolated railways", where they are used primarily to shuttle tourists around. Some of those are, in fact, different gauges, because they're preserved in working order specifically because they're so old and historic that they predate the standardization of rail gauge. If you subtract those out, the number of possibly working steam engines we have available drops off sharply. But as I noted, the water supply issue is a much, much bigger issue than gauge, or even than the isolation of tracks. (I also wonder if there's much of a stockpile of coal suitable for them, but I don't know enough about that to even begin to speculate.)


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

tivogurl said:


> Caltrain and BART were deliberately designed to prevent interoperation with other rail systems.


Why would they do that? I can see having a different gauge for trains with specific requirements (like the narrow-gauge trains in the mountains). But why do it for a modern train?


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

eddyj said:


> Why would they do that? I can see having a different gauge for trains with specific requirements (like the narrow-gauge trains in the mountains). But why do it for a modern train?


I really don't think you want to go there, but if you sincerely and truly do, I'd recommend starting a new thread in a non-television show related portion of the community.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I just wanted the one-sentence Cliff Notes, not a treatise.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

eddyj said:


> I just wanted the one-sentence Cliff Notes, not a treatise.


Steam makes choo choo go bye bye!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Steam makes choo choo go bye bye!


See...now even a knucklehead like me can understand that....


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

eddyj said:


> Why would they do that? I can see having a different gauge for trains with specific requirements (like the narrow-gauge trains in the mountains). But why do it for a modern train?


Wider gauge equals smoother ride, wider cars, more stable in higher winds (golden gate bridge), etc.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> Wider gauge equals smoother ride, wider cars, more stable in higher winds (golden gate bridge), etc.


The impression I got from tivogurl was that these specific agencies designed their trains on different standards not so they would be better, but so they wouldn't be able to work with other agencies' trains/tracks, and Eddy was asking why they would do this.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The impression I got from tivogurl was that these specific agencies designed their trains on different standards not so they would be better, but so they wouldn't be able to work with other agencies' trains/tracks, and Eddy was asking why they would do this.


From Here



> A more instructive example of standards battles involves the history of railroad gauges in the United States during the nineteenth century.
> As railroads began to be built in the early nineteenth century, tracks of varying widths (gauges) were employed. Somewhat arbitrary early choices had major, lasting impacts. One of the first railroads in the South, for example, the South Carolina, picked 5-foot gauge tracks. Over time, other railroads all over the South followed suit. In the North, by contrast, the Standard gauge of 48½, popular in England for mining, was common. Evidently, this was about the width of cart track in Roman times, being the most efficient width of a loaded vehicle that could be pulled by a flesh-and-blood (not iron) horse. The persistence of the 48½ gauge, which now is standard in the United States, is a good reminder that inertia is a powerful and durable force when standards are involved and that seemingly insignificant historical events can lead to lasting technological lock-in.
> By 1860, seven different gauges were in use in America. Just over half of the total mileage was of the 48½ standard. The next most popular was the 5-foot gauge concentrated in the South. As things turned out, having different gauges was advantageous to the South, since the North could not easily use railroad to move its troops to battle in southern territory during the Civil War. Noting this example, the Finns were careful to ensure that their railroads used a gauge different from the Russian railroads! The rest of Europe adopted a standard gauge, which made things easy for Hitler during World War II: a significant fraction of German troop movements in Europe were accomplished by rail.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

People may complain about those of us whoe are nitpicking, but I am learning a whole lot about trains, and rail gauges. I hope the show producers had half the info I know now.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Stormspace, I did find that very interesting!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> From Here


Which is interesting, but doesn't address tivogurl's apparent assertion that two Bay-area agencies deliberately used different standards specifically so that their trains couldn't run on each other's tracks. Which is, I think, what Eddy was asking about.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Which is interesting, but doesn't address tivogurl's apparent assertion that two Bay-area agencies deliberately used different standards specifically so that their trains couldn't run on each other's tracks. Which is, I think, what Eddy was asking about.


Oh. Right. I think someone here or some place I read that narrow gauge tracks cost less and allow for a tighter turning radius. That could be a couple of reasons.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> Oh. Right. I think someone here or some place I read that narrow gauge tracks cost less and allow for a tighter turning radius. That could be a couple of reasons.


OK, tivogurl, please come back to us. Because what I thought you were saying, and what nobody seems willing or able to address, is that some people use different standards for the specific purpose of preventing other people from using their tracks. Not that this is a side effect of their choice, but the exact reason for it. Is that the case?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> OK, tivogurl, please come back to us. Because what I thought you were saying, and what nobody seems willing or able to address, is that some people use different standards for the specific purpose of preventing other people from using their tracks. Not that this is a side effect of their choice, but the exact reason for it. Is that the case?


Are verizon and at&t in the railroad game now??


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> OK, tivogurl, please come back to us. Because what I thought you were saying, and what nobody seems willing or able to address, is that some people use different standards for the specific purpose of preventing other people from using their tracks. Not that this is a side effect of their choice, but the exact reason for it. Is that the case?


I believe it was done to prevent freight trains from coopting their right of way, in addition to any other supposed benefits (like resistance to wind and ride quality, which have pretty much been solved in standard gauge by modern suspension systems). The nonstandard gauge also makes BART stupendously expensive because all new railcars must be custom built.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> OK, tivogurl, please come back to us. Because what I thought you were saying, and what nobody seems willing or able to address, is that some people use different standards for the specific purpose of preventing other people from using their tracks. Not that this is a side effect of their choice, but the exact reason for it. Is that the case?


honestly, I don't think anybody cares and that's why you haven't seen a direct response to your repeated questions regarding this


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

> The nonstandard gauge also makes BART stupendously expensive because all new railcars must be custom built.


Ah, now I see. A true California project. We don't play well with others. The engine control module in my wife's car comes in two varities. one for the 49 states air quality standards, and a special one only for California requirements.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

tivogurl said:


> The nonstandard gauge also makes BART stupendously expensive because all new railcars must be custom built.


There are few enough railcars being built in the world, and enough different requirements/specifications required for them, that, basically, all new rail cars are custom-designed and built, even if they're standard gauge. If BART's cars are more expensive than cars of other transit systems, it would mainly be because of the various electronic circuitry needed for BART's automatic operation.

A couple of previous posts may have given the impression that Caltrain is a nonstandard gauge, too, but they are standard gauge. (In fact, there have long been plans to have Amtrak service from L.A. that runs into the Caltrain terminal instead of Oakland/Emeryville.)

There are a few other transit systems in the U.S. that use a nonstandard gauge: Pittsburgh, New Orleans, and the trolley lines and one of the subway lines in Philadelphia are 5'2-1/2". (MUNI in San Francisco, which is standard gauge, inherited some trolleys from Philadelphia and New Orleans -- they had to have the wheels changed out, but otherwise didn't need any modifications.)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pmyers said:


> honestly, I don't think anybody cares and that's why you haven't seen a direct response to your repeated questions regarding this


Which is fine...but why did people keep answering with answers that didn't answer the question? If they don't care, why don't they just ignore it?

No, I think something much deeper is going on here. I think there's a conspiracy afoot. I think people RIGHT HERE ON TIVOCOMMUNITY are participating in a cover-up of different rail standards. Obviously, they're on somebody's payroll...probably CalTrans.

It's the only possible explanation.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Hey! The first rule of Rail club is...


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

SeanC said:


> Hey! The first rule of Rail club is...


Coincedentally, the first rule of Date Club is ALSO do not talk about Rail (/Chess/Math/D&D) Club.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

trainman said:


> There are a few other transit systems in the U.S. that use a nonstandard gauge: Pittsburgh, New Orleans, and the trolley lines and one of the subway lines in Philadelphia are 5'2-1/2". (MUNI in San Francisco, which is standard gauge, inherited some trolleys from Philadelphia and New Orleans -- they had to have the wheels changed out, but otherwise didn't need any modifications.)


(Dying a little bit inside as I type this....)

Trainman---am I remembering correctly that the Los Angeles MTA chose to make the Red Line to Hollywood a different gauge than the Blue and Green lines it had already put in? I seem to remember quite a lot of ranting in our house over that decison.


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

This whole discussion about track gauge is pointless in context to the original discussion re steam locomotives. *IF* they got any of the old steam locomotives working again (like the ones at the Tennessee Valley Rail Museum), they aren't going to waste time running around on Bart tracks or commuter rail, or tourist scenic rail; They are going to get out on the standard mainlines across the country, so the whole issue of track gauge standards is moot. The old steam locomotives formerly used for rail excursions could be put back to work, *IF* you could find someone to work on them, *IF* you could figure out the logistics of supplying water (a major problem), *IF* you could find enough coal to run them, and *IF* someone knows how to safely operate them. (It ain't like driving a car).

Of course, you could use the coal sitting in all the stalled trains across the US that were on their way from the coal mines to power plants. Gotta get them off the mainlines anyway, so there's a large source of coal that's already mined.

Dave


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

tivogurl said:


> I believe it was done to prevent freight trains from coopting their right of way, in addition to any other supposed benefits (like resistance to wind and ride quality, which have pretty much been solved in standard gauge by modern suspension systems). The nonstandard gauge also makes BART stupendously expensive because all new railcars must be custom built.


I care.
Very interesting to this lurker. Thanks for the information.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...No, I think something much deeper is going on here. I think there's a conspiracy afoot. I think people RIGHT HERE ON TIVOCOMMUNITY are participating in a cover-up of different rail standards. Obviously, they're on somebody's payroll...probably CalTrans.
> 
> It's the only possible explanation.


It's part of the auto industry's conspiracy to cripple public transportation in California, of course.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

mrdbdigital said:


> This whole discussion about track gauge is pointless in context to the original discussion re steam locomotives. *IF* they got any of the old steam locomotives working again (like the ones at the Tennessee Valley Rail Museum), they aren't going to waste time running around on Bart tracks or commuter rail, or tourist scenic rail; They are going to get out on the standard mainlines across the country, so the whole issue of track gauge standards is moot.


No, that's exactly the point because many of the working steam locomotives *are* on the 'tourist scenic rail' or other specialized, and non-standard gauge, track; so they're already to the wrong gauge for being on the standard main lines.

Why it's moot is because this is not the hardest challenge to overcome for them by far.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

OK, who started this whole rail discussion? 

 

Actually, I am finding it more interesting that picking nits about the Revolution episode.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Another place where the gauge is not standardized is in Spain, which differs from the rest of Europe. I guess different standards developed since they Pyrenees were in the way. When I was visiting France and Spain, I wanted to take the train from one to the other. But that was expensive and took a lot longer, since the trains all had to be switched when you got to the mountain pass, so I ended up flying.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Must be nice to live in a state where they actually care about rail-based transportation and don't forfeit billions of dollars and have to repay the federal government when they outright reject a new rail infrastructure project.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

They were recently talking about building a commuter rail line from Phoenix to Vegas and then somewhere in CA (making a rough triangle)...no idea whatever happened to that.


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## kettledrum (Nov 17, 2003)

Hunter Green said:


> No, that's exactly the point because many of the working steam locomotives *are* on the 'tourist scenic rail' or other specialized, and non-standard gauge, track; so they're already to the wrong gauge for being on the standard main lines.
> 
> Why it's moot is because this is not the hardest challenge to overcome for them by far.


The Nickel Plate 587 near me that I mentioned in my previous post is standard gauge. Guess that gives me a leg up on my rail competitors... As long as I can fend off the militia, that is!


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

For all the people who want steam trains? How far away is the nearest steam train from you? Could you walk there without any directions and once you did what would you do?

Also how would you handle food, water and security while you do this?

I know if the end of the world comes I am going to go to the nearest steam engine and rob all the people who want to get the train going. Steam train will be a target rich environment.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

marksman said:


> For all the people who want steam trains? How far away is the nearest steam train from you? Could you walk there without any directions and once you did what would you do?
> 
> Also how would you handle food, water and security while you do this?
> 
> I know if the end of the world comes I am going to go to the nearest steam engine and rob all the people who want to get the train going. Steam train will be a target rich environment.


I work in a railroad town and Steam engines are on display in and around the local train yard. It wouldn't take but about 70 feet of track to get at least one of them on the main tracks. As for how long to get there? I live 45 minutes away by car, prolly a day's walk otherwise, but there are tracks in my home town that a train could use to come to me. Distance to the nearest track? 200 yards as the crow flies.


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

trainman said:


> There are few enough railcars being built in the world, and enough different requirements/specifications required for them, that, basically, all new rail cars are custom-designed and built, even if they're standard gauge. If BART's cars are more expensive than cars of other transit systems, it would mainly be because of the various electronic circuitry needed for BART's automatic operation.
> 
> A couple of previous posts may have given the impression that Caltrain is a nonstandard gauge, too, but they are standard gauge. (In fact, there have long been plans to have Amtrak service from L.A. that runs into the Caltrain terminal instead of Oakland/Emeryville.)
> 
> There are a few other transit systems in the U.S. that use a nonstandard gauge: Pittsburgh, New Orleans, and the trolley lines and one of the subway lines in Philadelphia are 5'2-1/2". (MUNI in San Francisco, which is standard gauge, inherited some trolleys from Philadelphia and New Orleans -- they had to have the wheels changed out, but otherwise didn't need any modifications.)


And what makes you think you know so much about it, trainm...

...oh.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

The California State Railroad Museum has lots of steam trains, and if my memory serves, has tracks leading to the museum so I think the trains (assuming they work) could be put into use fairly quickly. On my visit 15 years ago I remember tracks going into the building where the exhibits are so it appeared to my younger self they were rolled in there from the main track..

I had more stuff written, but.....


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

I don't want steam trains, I don't care about steam trains at all, this is just about common sense.

In a world without electrical power, what would be the best way to take and maintain political, military, and economic power? Steam power. It's a simple, logical conclusion. And the world in which this show resides they've had 15 years to do something about it.

I dunno if the show talks about how many people died between the night the power went out to now, but let us assume that 99% of the population kicked it, so there are only about 3 million people in the US now. In 15 years there is no doubt in my mind that people would organize, some as collectives, some as brutal dictatorships, regardless, people would put energy into reviving what they could of steam technology because without electricity it's their best way to provide for themselves.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Plus, this show would be way cooler if it were further in the future and the world was massively steampunk.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

SeanC said:


> I don't want steam trains, I don't care about steam trains at all, this is just about common sense.
> 
> In a world without electrical power, what would be the best way to take and maintain political, military, and economic power? Steam power. It's a simple, logical conclusion. And the world in which this show resides they've had 15 years to do something about it.
> 
> I dunno if the show talks about how many people died between the night the power went out to now, but let us assume that 99% of the population kicked it, so there are only about 3 million people in the US now. In 15 years there is no doubt in my mind that people would organize, some as collectives, some as brutal dictatorships, regardless, people would put energy into reviving what they could of steam technology because without electricity it's their best way to provide for themselves.


I would think that those in power at the time of the event would quickly realize that steam power is the only viable alternative and mobilize the national guard or military to get the steam engines into service. Guns apparently still work, so as long as trust in a supreme commander was in place it would have happened.

In this particular reality apparently it became every man for himself.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

SeanC said:


> I don't want steam trains, I don't care about steam trains at all, this is just about common sense.
> 
> In a world without electrical power, what would be the best way to take and maintain political, military, and economic power? Steam power. It's a simple, logical conclusion. And the world in which this show resides they've had 15 years to do something about it.
> 
> I dunno if the show talks about how many people died between the night the power went out to now, but let us assume that 99% of the population kicked it, so there are only about 3 million people in the US now. In 15 years there is no doubt in my mind that people would organize, some as collectives, some as brutal dictatorships, regardless, people would put energy into reviving what they could of steam technology because without electricity it's their best way to provide for themselves.


I think that's the obvious conclusion. Since it doesn't appear steam power is in use in this world, we have to assume there is a reason. Instead of nitpicking the show or the characters for not using steam, let's wait and see if the lack of steam is explained. If it's not explained in several episodes, then we'll have to wonder what's up. But in the meantime, I think we have to assume the writers thought about it and it will be addressed when they decide to address it.


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

Maybe the writers are getting their ideas from this forum, and others like it where Revolution is being discussed?

Dave


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I'm not looking forward to the 4 part story arc about railroad gauges.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

It would be pretty cool if they came upon a community/territory where steam power and bicycles were being used extensively, and the vegetation hadn't crawled up all of the walls of buildings. Maybe it's just the Chicago area that is so behind the times.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Polcamilla said:


> Trainman---am I remembering correctly that the Los Angeles MTA chose to make the Red Line to Hollywood a different gauge than the Blue and Green lines it had already put in? I seem to remember quite a lot of ranting in our house over that decison.


They're both standard gauge, but they operate differently -- the Blue and Green (and now Expo and Gold) lines get their power from overhead wires, and the Red Line gets its power from a third rail.



TAsunder said:


> I'm not looking forward to the 4 part story arc about railroad gauges.


I'm drooling already!


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> I'm not looking forward to the 4 part story arc about railroad gauges.


LOL...well played, sir.

Now back to steam engine:
Perhaps anything steam related is also prohibited, like firearms?

What I have found strange is the Militia camp. Why does it look so temporary with the white tents? Why not take over something and run out of there?


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

pmyers said:


> What I have found strange is the Militia camp. Why does it look so temporary with the white tents? Why not take over something and run out of there?


For the same reason they wear those goofy outfits and sometimes fire their guns while in line formation. Because the show creators think it's cool and fits the look they are going for with the show.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Hopefully we will see a need for high mobility. It would be weird if he remained in one spot.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Face it. The 12 year old crowd they're writing for, and the writers who are not far behind, think that just not being able to text is the end of the world. They'd think that having just broadcast TV (IN BLACK AND WHITE!) and no Internet would be the same as having to go without fire.

They have no idea what still could work.

My point is, having lived through some power failures, and us having seen how NYC survived 9/11 and the east coast power blackout and most of the South outside of NOLA survived Katrina, there wouldn't be immediate crime, mayhem, riots, murders and the collapse of government. Most folks will cope, cooperate and get along. If Noo Yawkers can do it, anybody in the rest of the country can.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

netringer said:


> ...My point is, having lived through some power failures, and us having seen how NYC survived 9/11 and the east coast power blackout and most of the South outside of NOLA survived Katrina, there wouldn't be immediate crime, mayhem, riots, murders and the collapse of government. Most folks will cope, cooperate and get along. If Noo Yawkers can do it, anybody in the rest of the country can.


Apples and oranges. There was still trasportation AND communication in all of those events. I think NOLA would a more realistic scenario and outcome.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

pmyers said:


> Apples and oranges. There was still trasportation AND communication in all of those events. I think NOLA would a more realistic scenario and outcome.


Even NOLA was both local and short-term. Nowhere near a total, global outage with no end in sight. That could make Katrina look like a dip in the pool.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

netringer said:


> Face it. The 12 year old crowd they're writing for, and the writers who are not far behind, think that just not being able to text is the end of the world. They'd think that having just broadcast TV (IN BLACK AND WHITE!) and no Internet would be the same as having to go without fire.
> 
> They have no idea what still could work.
> 
> My point is, having lived through some power failures, and us having seen how NYC survived 9/11 and the east coast power blackout and most of the South outside of NOLA survived Katrina, there wouldn't be immediate crime, mayhem, riots, murders and the collapse of government. Most folks will cope, cooperate and get along. If Noo Yawkers can do it, anybody in the rest of the country can.


Completely invalid comparison. Radios and batteries work, cars and vehicles still move. Comparing a black out to what they have actually experienced just doesn't match up. And it won't take long For things to reach total chaos especially with zero information about what is happening. People would be killing each other over resources within a week.

Realize when the blackout event happened could mean a lot too. If it was during the day then families will be split up and finding their family members become a priority.

People who think the world will be smooth and chill when all electricity stops working better hope nothing like that actually happens.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Not that I wouldn't have major complications beyond transportation, but given that I bike to and from work most of the time, I like to think that I'd be ok as far as finding my family and obtaining supplies. Of course, bicycles don't exist and/or don't work in this world as far as we can tell...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Of course, bicycles don't exist and/or don't work in this world as far as we can tell...


That's actually realistic...bicycle tires rot out within a few years, even if they're not used (as I found out when I got a bike out of storage recently).


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

TAsunder said:


> Not that I wouldn't have major complications beyond transportation, but given that I bike to and from work most of the time, I like to think that I'd be ok as far as finding my family and obtaining supplies. Of course, bicycles don't exist and/or don't work in this world as far as we can tell...


Well, Madison is a relatively small city. If I recall, you don't have to go far to get to rural areas, farms, etc.

The real carnage would happen in the big cities. Without efficient transportation to move the food in from all across the country, and without piped drinking water, anyone staying in the cities wouldn't last long.

So, I agree with the people saying that a large fraction of Americans would die soon after the event.

But the people who are saying that all of civilization would collapse just don't understand human nature and human ingenuity. The most likely thing that would happen is that people with weapons (military, police, hunters, etc.) would band together in rural areas where there is food and water (farms, large woodland areas, etc.). With those areas (all over the country) as bases, order would be maintained and some sort of civilization, probably similar to the mid-to-late 1800s, would arise, except with better medicine, guns, etc. since there would be plenty of things to be scavenged.

And as you say, everything should really be steam powered. That would actually be interesting to watch, unlike the crap that this show has presented us with.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

netringer said:


> My point is, having lived through some power failures, and us having seen how NYC survived 9/11 and the east coast power blackout and most of the South outside of NOLA survived Katrina, there wouldn't be immediate crime, mayhem, riots, murders and the collapse of government. Most folks will cope, cooperate and get along. If Noo Yawkers can do it, anybody in the rest of the country can.


Those were temporary events with an end in sight, and caused by something that everybody understood and could comprehend. Things with batteries still worked. Corded phones still worked. Cars still worked. Mass transit still worked. Generators still worked. Planes still worked.

In other words, completely different to the world that has been set up in this show.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's actually realistic...bicycle tires rot out within a few years, even if they're not used (as I found out when I got a bike out of storage recently).


Not all rubber tires rot that easily. And hardly at all if they are kept dry. So it should not be difficult to find usable rubber tires. But even if it were, it wouldn't be hard to rig up something yourself that would be rideable.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

DLiquid said:


> For the same reason they wear those goofy outfits and sometimes fire their guns while in line formation. Because the show creators think it's cool and fits the look they are going for with the show.


:up:

The militia camp looks like something from a civil war movie. I would expect to see some Coleman tents or something. Tents can last a long time if taken care of properly. So far the only modern tent I have seen is from the Miles/Monroe flashback.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

eddyj said:


> OK, who started this whole rail discussion?


Not to say "I told you so!" but....I told you so!


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> Plus, this show would be way cooler if it were further in the future and the world was massively steampunk.


I already addressed this point. While it would be WAY cooler, no network is going to want to spend the kind of money it would take to have an on-going, hour-long drama series with a steampunk aesthetic. How many period shows have lasted more than one season? Mad Men, but that's because they shoot it all on the same sets and just have to dress people in suits. I can't think of any others off the top of my head that aren't westerns (and most of those were decades ago).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Is it safe to say this discussion has gone off the...

Nope. Can't do it. Almost did. But didn't.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

marksman said:


> Completely invalid comparison. Radios and batteries work, cars and vehicles still move.


Ah...I still remember back 15 or so years ago when, going into hour 4 or so of a power outage in London, I sent off an email complaint to the electric company. Four hours later the power came back on and a week or so after that I got a nice, long email that apologized three times for not getting back to me sooner and mentioning that in the event of another power outage, I would probably get a faster response from the power company if I telephoned as they were not equipped to check emails during an outtage.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

tivogurl said:


> Caltrain and BART were deliberately designed to prevent interoperation with other rail systems.


Can you give more details? That's pretty stupid.

Oh, and I brought it up because of reading about it in *recent* discussion about electrifying Caltrain (which seems to me sort of "turning it into BART").


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Church AV Guy said:


> Ah, now I see. A true California project. We don't play well with others. The engine control module in my wife's car comes in two varities. one for the 49 states air quality standards, and a special one only for California requirements.


That part is good. California leads the nation in terms of environmental laws, and we have separate rules from (I believe all) of the rest of the states as far as clean air laws.. Though our rules are often used voluntarily by other states.

(I say this as mostly conservative, BTW.)


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

I'm pretty sure I can be blamed for bringing up the bit about rail *gauges*, though not the whole steam trains issue. But in my defense, I did bring it up specifically by *not* talking about it -- precisely because it's too big a mess and not that germane.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

The train discussion was better than the episode discussion!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Polcamilla said:


> I already addressed this point. While it would be WAY cooler, no network is going to want to spend the kind of money it would take to have an on-going, hour-long drama series with a steampunk aesthetic. How many period shows have lasted more than one season? Mad Men, but that's because they shoot it all on the same sets and just have to dress people in suits. I can't think of any others off the top of my head that aren't westerns (and most of those were decades ago).


Mad Men doesn't even really count since it's on AMC and not a broadcast network where the plug is almost fully pulled on a show before it even airs. Does MASH count?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

eddyj said:


> The train discussion was better than the episode discussion!


True!


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

Hunter Green said:


> I'm pretty sure I can be blamed for bringing up the bit about rail *gauges*, though not the whole steam trains issue. But in my defense, I did bring it up specifically by *not* talking about it -- precisely because it's too big a mess and not that germane.


The damn Germans ain't got nothing to do with it! 

Dave


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Hunter Green said:


> I'm pretty sure I can be blamed for bringing up the bit about rail *gauges*, though not the whole steam trains issue. But in my defense, I did bring it up specifically by *not* talking about it -- precisely because it's too big a mess and not that germane.


I believe I'm the guilty party here.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

eddyj said:


> The train discussion was better than the episode discussion!


Then you might consider cancelling your Revolution SP and replacing it with an SP for this. 

Or buy tickets to a revival of Starlight Express.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I disagree; we should all keep watching this show and each week have a lengthy, technical discussion about something the writers are probably completely unaware of (like steam power). Much more entertaining.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Polcamilla said:


> Then you might consider cancelling your Revolution SP and replacing it with an SP for this.
> 
> Or buy tickets to a revival of Starlight Express.


And get back to work on my train setup!


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> I disagree; we should all keep watching this show and each week have a lengthy, technical discussion about something the writers are probably completely unaware of (like steam power). Much more entertaining.


I haven't finished watching E03 yet. What technical discussion is happening in that thread?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Polcamilla said:


> I haven't finished watching E03 yet. What technical discussion is happening in that thread?


Nothing as exciting. Most of it was me arguing with another guy over whether civilization would decay by default if the power went out.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

That would be me. 

And no, not nearly as exciting as Train Talk.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> Nothing as exciting. Most of it was me arguing with another guy over whether civilization would decay by default if the power went out.


At this point I think the reason civilization has failed is more a function of the lack of transportation. The entire non electric infrastructure prior to the industrial revolution is gone for the most part, along with the knowledge to build those vehicles. It's going to take more than 15 years to recover from that, however putting old vehicles back in use shouldn't be that difficult if they are still around and have been maintained.

Some things they desperately need.

1) Trains
2) The Pony Express
3) Wind powered naval vessels
4) Mail

Without transportation and the ability to move information from one part of the world to another, advances in technology will remain isolated to the area in which they are developed. In this show it appears that the world or at least the area around Chicago has reverted to a feudal society similar to the dark ages in that people 30 to 50 miles distant are essentially in different worlds.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Given the existence of amulets, I would think someone with one could just hang out in a factory that makes bullets and rule the world.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> Given the existence of amulets, I would think someone with one could just hang out in a factory that makes bullets and rule the world.


Based on the light bulb functioning it certainly suggests that the electric infrastructure is still working, just dampened somehow. I didn't see a generator anywhere, so maybe one of those 4 nuclear plants is still pumping out electricity that no one can use.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Just had a thought. What if all of this is the result of a failed attempt at using some sort of broadcast power? When the broadcast plant went online it disrupted the existing infrastructure. Whatcha think?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> Just had a thought. What if all of this is the result of a failed attempt at using some sort of broadcast power? When the broadcast plant went online it disrupted the existing infrastructure. Whatcha think?


I would enjoy it a lot if it turns out Google's use of their purchased wireless frequency rights turns out to be the culprit and the real guy who knows what's what is the guy who used to work at Google.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Not that I wouldn't have major complications beyond transportation, but given that I bike to and from work most of the time, I like to think that I'd be ok as far as finding my family and obtaining supplies. Of course, bicycles don't exist and/or don't work in this world as far as we can tell...


Okay so you bike home to be with your family. I assume everyone else is already at home all day or else also managed to bike home.

How long before you run out of food or water so you have to go out looking for some? Maybe you have a good supply which means when you run out the stores will all be empty. So now you can pedal around on your bike going from house to house looking for food. Perhaps you pick the wrong house and get killed or perhaps your bike makes you a massive target and someone takes your bike.

Congrats on biking to work and having your significant other and kids at home waiting for you. (Hope they did not go to the mall or somewhere else when this event happened). Yet that is only the beginning of your ordeal.

Unfortunately most people will not have their entire family at home or in bicycle range with bikes when this event happens, and things get tougher.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> 1) Trains
> 2) The Pony Express
> 3) Wind powered naval vessels
> 4) Mail


1. Discussed extensively 
2. I think the biggest problem here is the inherent risk of going from Point A to Point B, even on horseback. Because there are clearly groups marauding that will attack any stranger either to get his resources or because they view him as a threat, it's going to be almost impossible to establish a reliable network of routes. Plus, nobody's gonna want the job if the pay is generally getting killed en route.
3. ....and this show is set in the Midwest, smack in the middle of the continent. I think the need for these is completely valid, but it could very well be that the writers of the show set it far away from any major bodies of water because they didn't want to have to deal with sailing ships.
4. With the above three methods of transportation limited, this is going to be exceeding difficult. Certainly there isn't going to be a mail system. At best there will be a hodgepodge of messangers for hire, but the pay is going to have to be crazy good to offset the risk of travel.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

eddyj said:


> And get back to work on my train setup!





DreadPirateRob said:


> ...And no, not nearly as exciting as Train Talk.


Sheldon needs to pipe in here...


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