# TiVo EPG fallback position



## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

In the event that the EPG support for Series 1 TiVo's in the UK ceases, I am looking into the possibility of re-establishing the service. I have no idea if this will be feasible or not. Technically a bit of a no-brainer but licensing-wise etc etc. Clearly depends on the go ahead from whoever etc.

However, I would be interested to hear from any of you as to whether you would be interested or not.

Any suggestions/pitfalls etc welcome. Preferably by PM


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

It's technically perfectly possible, for those who have TiVos with network cards. Legally, you'd be scraping the EPG from somewhere, but loads of PC based systems do that already, apparently without any problems.

Hopefully should TiVo stop the S1 service, they will give enough notice for someone to set something up.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

Agreed but I am looking for a solution that replaces what we already have with the minimum of fuss and bother.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

For dial-up users that's unlikely, and the phone number appears to be hard wired into the software.


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

Not a problem at all. The like of the Dutch, South African and Scandinavian TiVo users have done it. Compiling the listings isn't particularly difficult one you have good listing sources.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

sad_tivo_man said:


> a solution that replaces what we already have with the minimum of fuss and bother.


Having rummaged around other countries' Tivo sites it seems there has to be "fuss and bother" on one side or the other unfortunately - by which I mean you either 
- scrape the data from a listing service (F&B to the Tivo user)
or
- setup a replacement for the Tivo servers (F&B to the group of people who maintain the new "service")


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

spitfires said:


> .....
> - setup a replacement for the Tivo servers (F&B to the group of people who maintain the new "service")


Revenue generation sweetens the pill!

10,000 users ? Even at a 50% take up at a tenner month that's £600k a year. But who knows how many users are out there...


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

No other country charges. Its done by volunteers. Someone would volunteer or offer to share their existing listings service to another country. 

Cooking your own listings is fiddly initially, but then takes maybe 10 minutes a week. It's better than manual recording everything, believe me!


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

kitschcamp said:


> ....
> 
> Cooking your own listings is fiddly initially, but then takes maybe 10 minutes a week. It's better than manual recording everything, believe me!


That's fine for techy-types but there are many TiVo users who don't have to do anything at the moment. TiVo does it all for them.


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

Indeed. But other countries have managed a TiVo service for interested people without charging. I don't see why the UK members would pay. The hard work has already been done by other people FOC, and you'd be using *their* hard work and scripts which *they* give free.


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## djb2002 (May 1, 2006)

I'd definitely be interested in an getting the TiVo working with an alternative source for the EPG (if the worst happens).


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## jrg1 (Oct 22, 2002)

perhap we could persuade Digiguide to do it.
i'd sign up like a shot, since we live in a Virgin-free area [in the cabling sense, of course] and are unlikely to get cbales installed befoier the next ice-age.
mind, i'd need to get my network card sorted ...
john


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

kitschcamp said:


> ....and scripts which *they* give free.


You're still missing the point.

Not every TiVo user is a tech-head and wants to faff around with connecting up PCs, network cards, scraping data, running scripts etc. They do not want to do ANYTHING ...nothing...nada...apart from pay their sub...which they were perfectly happy to do.


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

And in other countries they don't have to either. You're missing the point. Holland. South africa. Australia. New Zealand. All have a 'normal' fan operated service which doesn't require you to be a techie at no cost. There is no need to charge. Scraping other peoples data for profit is going to be noticed. Using other peoples free scripts for profit is going to be noticed. All that will happen if you charge is the TiVo lawyers, radio times, etc will chase you down and potentially cause the loss of TV XML data for everyone. It's the charging that I think is dangerous, not because I object to paying.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

What is this 'script' you keep talking about?

Where have I suggested providing a dial-up subscription service without the necessary agreements/royalties/payments etc in place?


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

TCM2007 said:


> For dial-up users that's unlikely, and the phone number appears to be hard wired into the software.


No - the phone number is easily changed in the GUI (no hacking necessary) as standard - many people use alternative dialin numbers e.g local access numbers when in Spain etc


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

My bad, I meant the IP address of the TiVo server which supplies the listings. As I'm sure you know the dial up is to an old school Internet PoP not direct to TiVo.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

sad_tivo_man said:


> What is this 'script' you keep talking about?
> 
> Where have I suggested providing a dial-up subscription service without the necessary agreements/royalties/payments etc in place?


The existing solutions involve scripts which "scrape" TV listings from web or XML sources and translate them into TiVo compatible data slices.

No solutions use dial up.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

It's true the programs/scripts to run an alternative EPG already exist and it would be morally wrong to charge for using them. However it may be easier to (collectively) pay for an EPG data subscription from Digiguide/Tribune/whoever rather than faffing around with morally questionable site scraping, manual rolling etc.

The charge would then be for the provision of the EPG data rather than for the infrastructure to supply it.

Which is errr, kinda what Tivo Inc do at the moment with their 'subscription'


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Possibly, but as a"free" solution exists that's unlikely to be viable.

We don't know how many people still use TiVo but it seems unlikely to be more than a few thousand, as it was little more than 20,000 at it's peak.


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

The listings data is minimal bandwidth. A full feed is about 5Mb to 10Mb max per week. I know. 

Dialup and ip settings are easy changed. But anyone who wants to use the new service would have to change it. 

Each user would need a deal with digiguide personally, even then its of questionable following of contracts.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Possibly, but as a"free" solution exists that's unlikely to be viable.
> 
> We don't know how many people still use TiVo but it seems unlikely to be more than a few thousand, as it was little more than 20,000 at it's peak.


Say 2,000 @ £10 p.m. = £240,000 p.a. Even if an EPG contract was £100,000 p.a. (unlikely - probably nearer £50k) it looks viable to me! 

The "free" solution isn't really free since it needs a group of people to rent server space and manage the generation of the EPG slices. Would people pay £10 for a hassle-free-no-input-required Tivo service? I'm sure most would (say 2,000 users of which there are maybe 200 on this forum leaves 1,800 who might be interested in a non-techy approach).



kitschcamp said:


> Each user would need a deal with digiguide personally, even then its of questionable following of contracts.


Not if we set up a company and contracted with Digiguide through that.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

IF Tivo withrew the EPG in the UK then it would be interesting to explore a replacement service. I'm fairly sure that a paid service would attract the attention of the copyright holders of the EPG data and possibly Tivo/Virgin.
AFAIK all the other territories that have rolled their own EPG were never officially provided with Tivo. I don't know if the Oz service was discontinued when they launched officially over there?

As there would be no official way to contact the user base your audience would be limited to the number of people you could contact on here/digital spy etc. which would only be a small proportion of the remaining customer base. That customer base will inevitably shrink as boxes die and more people move towards HD. As a business proposition I'm not sure that would make much sense but don't let me stand in anyones way.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

2,000 willing to pay sounds wildly optimistic. There are probably nor many more than 2,000 still in use as primary machines, and the vast majority of them will not have paid anything for the best part of 10 years. Ask them to pay now and most, IMHO will retire the TiVo and buy something more modern. Sky users will have an alternative right there.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

AMc said:


> ......
> 
> As there would be no official way to contact the user base your audience would be limited to the number of people you could contact on here/digital spy etc. which would only be a small proportion of the remaining customer base. ......


Yes there is...via the current TiVo messaging system. Obviously depends on agreements etc ..... before you all start pouring cold water on the idea.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Virgin have the exclusive license to provide & sell TiVo service in the UK. What you're talking about is selling TiVo service in the UK, so I'm sure TiVo could not co-operate even if they wanted to.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

TCM2007 said:


> Virgin have the exclusive license to provide & sell TiVo service in the UK. What you're talking about is selling TiVo service in the UK, so I'm sure TiVo could not co-operate even if they wanted to.


How do you know? Have you seen the agreement in detail?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Because that's what they've announced and put in TiVo's annual report. Look it up for yourself.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

It is very rare that 'exclusive' means 'exclusive'. Nor anything in reports/newspapers/etc where a simple soundbite or wordbite seems to suffice for some people.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

The note in the SEC filing (not usually a source of soundbites or less than precise words) was pretty clear. I posted it around here somewhere.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Here:



> On November 23, 2009, we entered into a mutually exclusive distribution relationship with Virgin Media in the United Kingdom. Virgin is also the exclusive licensee of certain TiVo technology and trademarks in the U.K.


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## einstein (Jul 19, 2001)

If this was a commerical option (by paying subscribers), my business could "offer/donate" some resources in our datacentre if required. But please note, that electricity, air conditioning, space, co-location, servers, internet bandwidth don't come free, to anyone. But we may be able to offer at a cost-neutral basis. 

If it's decided in the future, this is necessary, and there is enough interest to continue the EPG service. Although for lifetime subscribers, try them to get to part with a monthly subscription may be difficult. But if TiVo does pull the plug on them, their TiVos will also be doorsteps, like the monthly subbers as well.

Just offering my services to help out.


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## geekspeak (Oct 1, 2002)

sad_tivo_man said:


> In the event that the EPG support for Series 1 TiVo's in the UK ceases,


I would imagine it would take Tivo at least a year or two to establish their name in the UK industry. I very much doubt they would want to risk potential adverse publicity or ridicule by causing controversy, during that period, by turning off existing "lifetime" subscriptions. Especially whilst trying to get people to pay for a box they won't even own. I imagine Sky would have a field day, at the very least. :up:


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## ramtops (Sep 26, 2005)

einstein said:


> If this was a commerical option (by paying subscribers), my business could "offer/donate" some resources in our datacentre if required. But please note, that electricity, air conditioning, space, co-location, servers, internet bandwidth don't come free, to anyone. But we may be able to offer at a cost-neutral basis..


They don't, but my servers are in a facility which offers us unlimited bandwidth, etc, so I could quite possibly offer the service FOC.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

geekspeak said:


> I would imagine it would take Tivo at least a year or two to establish their name in the UK industry. I very much doubt they would want to risk potential adverse publicity or ridicule by causing controversy, during that period, by turning off existing "lifetime" subscriptions. Especially whilst trying to get people to pay for a box they won't even own. I imagine Sky would have a field day, at the very least. :up:


I agree with all of the above thoughts by geekspeak and think that the minimum period to keep the S1 Tivo going in order for both Virgin and/or Tivo to avoid loss of face or collateral brand damage is at least another three years to avoid any negative fallout.

They really need to keep S1 service going until such time as Virgin manages to start delivering its television services in non Virgin cabled areas. This should happen in due course via a BT Vision type Virgin product, even if the extra channels non Freeview channels in non Virgin cabled areas are only available on a Video on Demand basis and have to be downloaded to the box as video streaming in real time on slow 1Mbps/2Mbps connections in the countryside will not be fast enough for HD, let alone SD.

For as long as S1 service is still supported on the earliest boxes in the USA (even though owners there have a easy upgrade path available) then Tivo will not be able to justify a decision to pull S1 service to their UK customers. Pulling the plug on S1 service would have been far more likely in the next year to 18 months or so if Tivo had not re-entered the UK marketplace with a new version of the Tivo product.


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## einstein (Jul 19, 2001)

ramtops said:


> They don't, but my servers are in a facility which offers us unlimited bandwidth, etc, so I could quite possibly offer the service FOC.


We also have unlimited bandwidth. but we've have on-costs.

I hadn't seen anybody on the thread offer services.

If you can offer FOC, excellent! As a commercial business, we cannot beat that!

That makes the EPG service FREE! (maybe!)


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## Jolltax (Aug 4, 2003)

You guys are depressing me with all this doom and gloom.

Has anyone emailed or attempted to contact VM to ask if they have any intentions good or bad regarding the service for remaining S1 owners? Just curious.

I live in the boonies with no cable service of any kind, in a mischievous moment I phoned VM up and feigned ignorance (easy for me) and innocently asked about upgrading my Tivo.

Unfortunately the person I spoke to took it to another level of ignorance and didn't know there was any such thing as a S1 TiVo and tried politely to explain to me that unless I had cable I couldn't possibly have one already ..... sigh

Wife will kill me if the TiVo stops working, MAN THE BARRICADES AND FIGHT!

<cue dambusters music>

Jolltax

(lurking the forums since 2003)


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Jolltax said:


> Has anyone emailed or attempted to contact VM to ask if they have any intentions good or bad regarding the service for remaining S1 owners? Just curious.


Its really the directors of Tivo Inc that you need to put that question to in the short term, even though in the long run Virgin must have a commercial interest in finding a way to distribute its tv service to around 90% of the UK's population instead of only the current 50%. To my mind BT's new 50Mbs BT Infinity Fibre To The Cabinet network that is being rolled out to about 90% of UK homes within the next 18 months or so will provide such a mechanism. But for now its Tivo that's continuing to provide service to our S1 Tivos and it has nothing to do with Virgin (save that Virgin's commercial agreement with Tivo in the UK seems to have stopped them collecting the £10 per month subscription through Sky for the S1 units)

Of course if you live in the last 10% of the population on a rural exchange then fat chance of Virgin ever getting to your area sadly until fibre optic reaches the deep countryside (may be another 10 to 15 years away). The only option in the countryside is satellite and Virgin have no interest at all in using that distribution platform.

But there is no reason to think the S1 service won't continue for now just because Virgin are offering an upgraded new Tivo model to their customers.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

I'd like to think that our concerns are getting through as I see that the latest message on TiVo has a subtle shift in direction in that is says 'if you are in a cable coverage area then look at Virginmedia'...or words to that effect.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Expanding VM services over normal ADSL does not form any part of any stated VM strategy. Sadly Pete's living in cloud cuckoo land. There would be no damage to Virgin's TiVo rollout by stopping S1 services; even if it got any publicity (which it wouldn't), it hardly effects Virgin's credibility as an operator does it?

There is nothing stopping TiVo stopping the service at all. Of course that doesnt mean that they will imminently.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> But there is no reason to think the S1 service won't continue for now just because Virgin are offering an upgraded new Tivo model to their customers.


I would have thought that was a very good reason to switch off S1 coverage.

If TiVo are not accepting new S1 subscriptions and are waiving all fees, then you have a negative income stream (it must cost them for data services, however well established they are). Their financial reports clearly point to cable partnerships as their future business plan - US direct subs are declining, they seem to be pinning their hopes on Comcast, Virgin and Canal Studio.



sad_tivo_man said:


> I'd like to think that our concerns are getting through as I see that the latest message on TiVo has a subtle shift in direction in that is says 'if you are in a cable coverage area then look at Virginmedia'...or words to that effect.


I see that just as recognition that not all S1 users have (or can get) cable!


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## ramtops (Sep 26, 2005)

einstein said:


> We also have unlimited bandwidth. but we've have on-costs.
> 
> I hadn't seen anybody on the thread offer services.
> 
> ...


You should get a better deal! Our servers are fixed fee rental.

I can offer, possibly, server space. I don't think I have the time to offer an EPG service.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Expanding VM services over normal ADSL does not form any part of any stated VM strategy. Sadly Pete's living in cloud cuckoo land. There would be no damage to Virgin's TiVo rollout by stopping S1 services; even if it got any publicity (which it wouldn't), it hardly effects Virgin's credibility as an operator does it?
> 
> There is nothing stopping TiVo stopping the service at all. Of course that doesnt mean that they will imminently.


The last time I checked the product positioning and branding of Tivo was in the same bracket as Mercedes or Miele and not in the same market and branding position as Ryanair.

Bearing those things in mind and that Virgin is trying to build up the idea that Tivo is a great product in the UK the last thing the product needs is for stories to start circulating that Tivo has just dumped in the dirt half its old UK customer base and not offered them any form of replacement PVR service.

Of course I appreciate that the business ethics of the publishers of T3 magazine are possibly more like those of Ryanair.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I'd appreciate it if you could cut out the libellous statements about my employers.


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## Jolltax (Aug 4, 2003)

Trinitron said:


> If TiVo are not accepting new S1 subscriptions and are waiving all fees, then you have a negative income stream


Just to join with the doom and gloom I have to agree with this. The fact that we are small group being provided with a service which presumably costs money and no longer generating any income seems unsustainable.

Jolltax


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Jolltax said:


> Just to join with the doom and gloom I have to agree with this. The fact that we are small group being provided with a service which presumably costs money and no longer generating any income seems unsustainable.


Most companies in the IT sector have comparatively few assets but a large item on their balance sheets known as GoodWill. I would suggest that it would be very damaging to GoodWill towards the Tivo brand (not just here but back in the USA where this launch is being very actively followed) for the Tivo S1 service to be shut down at this point in time when there is clearly a substantial base of customers still reliant on that service and with no upgrade path available to them


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

That is your oft stated view. My oft stated view is that if they close it down now it would get no press coverage and therefore not damage goodwill (is GoodWill some legal document making software?) at all. It won't get any press coverage because it's not in the least unreasonable to end support for a product which hasn't been sold for 8 years, whose service has been provided FOC for six months, and whose users have been offered a cheap upgrade. Watchdog would not be interested.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

TCM2007 said:


> That is your oft stated view. My oft stated view is that if they close it down now it would get no press coverage and therefore not damage goodwill (is GoodWill some legal document making software?) at all. It won't get any press coverage because it's not in the least unreasonable to end support for a product which hasn't been sold for 8 years, whose service has been provided FOC for six months, and whose users have been offered a cheap upgrade. Watchdog would not be interested.


I don't agree with much of this. I think that Pete77 has it pretty well 'bang-to-rights'. The last thing that TiVo wants is bad press and they will get it if the service is stopped.

No-one asked for TiVo to pull out of the UK although I can understand why they might have done so....given the route that Sky took.

No-one asked that the service be provided FOC.

How many people are not on the cable footprint and so have no upgrade route?

Even if they are on the cable footprint, why should people be forced to waste money? On functionality that they may not want or need?

And what is all this about a 'cheap' upgrade?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

sad_tivo_man said:


> I don't agree with much of this. I think that Pete77 has it pretty well 'bang-to-rights'. The last thing that TiVo wants is bad press and they will get it if the service is stopped.


I did Ignore you for a while sad_tivo_man but as the Ignore function still tells you a post has been made by the person you have Ignored at the appropriate point in the thread and/or they can be quoted by someone else in the thread it seems pretty pointless. The main thing we probably disagreed over was my possible misinterpretation that you demanded Tivo carry on the S1 service forever even if there is a replacement service available from Tivo in your area.

My view is that if a replacement Tivo is available in your area it is not unreasonable to expect you to upgrade but they must make the cost of doing so attractive. Clearly the price being charged for those living in a cable area at the moment is not at all attractive unless they are on an expensive XL tv package. The least Tivo and Virgin could have done was to waive the now low £3 per month service charge to those Tivo customers with Lifetime subs. Also existing Tivo customers should be offered the new Virgin Tivo on their existing Virgin package level and not only on the XL package level.

Where I probably disagreed with you was in thinking you had said (I probably got it wrong) that the old S1 service should carry on forever even if a replacement was now available in your area.



> How many people are not on the cable footprint and so have no upgrade route?


More or less exactly 50% of UK households are not on the cable footprint. I expect the percentage of S1 machines now not on the cable footprint is even higher because of their suitability as high tech satellite recorders with no monthly Sky recording fee and the fact that they are still superior to Freeview + recorders



> Even if they are on the cable footprint, why should people be forced to waste money? On functionality that they may not want or need?


I think Tivo could justify withdrawing S1 service to these customers if they offered them a good enough upgrade deal including allowing customers to take the free tv Virgin M package where they only pay for a Virgin phone line subject to paying enough to cover the real cost of the new Tivo hardware.

But anyhow for Virgin and Tivo to take an action (closing down all S1 Tivo service) that drew attention to their lack of coverage in 50% of UK homes at this point in time would be an act of utter commercial folly in my opinion.

Building up a positive image of a brand over time is very expensive to do. The cost of keeping Tivo S1 service going for the old machines for another five years or so is not a significant business cost in the context of the size and value of the new Tivo agreement with Virgin Media.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

Very well reasoned, Pete77, and I agree with you.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

sad_tivo_man said:


> Very well reasoned, Pete77, and I agree with you.


:up::up::up:


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

sad_tivo_man said:


> Very well reasoned, Pete77, and I agree with you.


Possibly the first time those words have been used on this board.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Possibly the first time those words have been used on this board.


I seem to remember you mainly agreeing with one of my own posts only a few posts ago.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> .
> 
> But anyhow for Virgin and Tivo to take an action (closing down all S1 Tivo service) that drew attention to their lack of coverage in 50% of UK homes at this point in time would be an act of utter commercial folly in my opinion.


Eh? It's not exactly a state secret that you can only get cable in cable areas.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Building up a positive image of a brand over time is very expensive to do. The cost of keeping Tivo S1 service going for the old machines for another five years or so is not a significant business cost in the context of the size and value of the new Tivo agreement with Virgin Media.


Alternatively, as you are going to close it down eventually, why not take any hit now, before that very expensive brand promotion has really started?

Whatever, I'm sure what happens to S1s was negotiated ages ago and we just don't know the outcome yet.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

sad_tivo_man said:


> The last thing that TiVo wants is bad press and they will get it if the service is stopped.


With the (relatively) small number of S1 units left in the UK I don't think the userbase could make enough noise to get anyone interested; especially given TCM's comments wrt the length of time that new units have not been available, the FOC (to monthly subs), etc.



> No-one asked for TiVo to pull out of the UK although I can understand why they might have done so....given the route that Sky took.


No-one generally asks for anything like that to happen 



> No-one asked that the service be provided FOC.


First time I've heard _anyone_ complain about getting something for nothing 



> How many people are not on the cable footprint and so have no upgrade route?


50%.



> Even if they are on the cable footprint, why should people be forced to waste money?


No-one's being "forced" to do anything they don't want to do 



> On functionality that they may not want or need?


It's a Tivo. It does everything your S1 did and possibly, if yours was an un-modded model, more. 



> And what is all this about a 'cheap' upgrade?


Standard Price: £199 + £40 + XLTV + £3 pm
Upgrade Price: £149 + 0 + XLTV + £3pm
Saving £90.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

So to summarise Carl's position:-



> "I'm alright jack and stuff the rest of you who don't have a Virgin XL package or don't live in cableland"


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> So to summarise Carl's position:-


Carl and TCM are really only stating the facts as known most of what else is being said by others is either suggestions or suppositions


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

cwaring said:


> > How many people are not on the cable footprint and so have no upgrade route?
> 
> 
> 50%.


Assuming an even distribution of S1 users between cable and non-cable areas.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

RichardJH said:


> Carl and TCM are really only stating the facts as known most of what else is being said by others is either suggestions or suppositions


There is an amount of fact and supposition on everybody's part. We simply just don't know enough of the details ...


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

Agreed


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> So to summarise Carl's position:-


1. Please don't put words in my mouth. It's not nice, clever or necessary as I am more than capable of speaking for myself.
2. You could not be more wrong if you tried.


spitfires said:


> Assuming an even distribution of S1 users between cable and non-cable areas.


No, this has nothing to do with Tivo. VM's cable service covers 50% of the UK.


sad_tivo_man said:


> There is an amount of fact and supposition on everybody's part. We simply just don't know enough of the details ...


There is no supposition on my part. Everything I have stated has been true to the best of my knowledge.


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## djb2002 (May 1, 2006)

Did I read correctly that there is already a system in place to obtain EPG information from another source to the TiVo Series 1 boxes ?? (Used in other countries ??).

If so, am I missing something, or wouldn't it just be a quick job to modify this for the UK ??

Thanks


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

cwaring said:


> .....
> There is no supposition on my part. Everything I have stated has been true to the best of my knowledge.


To quote an earlier post of yours ..

_How many people are not on the cable footprint and so have no upgrade route?_

50%.

That is supposition. Virgin cable coverage is 50% but without knowing the distribution of S1 TiVo users, you have no way of knowing if there is a one-to-one correlation and that the figure is 50%


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

^ yeah what he said. The original comment clearly referred to "people" in the context of S1 users rather than the public in general.

Sorry Carl on this one you are wrong, although I'm sure you'll squirm your way out of it with your usual "ahh but if you take the sentence out of context and interpret it literally then I am factually correct. Actually" riposte.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

sad_tivo_man said:


> That is supposition.


No. I'm pretty sure it's an actual *fact*; though it is hard to find it quoted anywhere. I'll keep looking.

No, we don't know exactly how many "people" are covered by the 50% figure but that was the figure quoted to me by VM when I asked them.

However, and once again, it has _NO BEARING WHATSOEVER_ on Tivo.

They covered 50% of the UK _before_ announcing the new Tivo and they still cover 50% of the UK now.

I fail to see any problem with that statement of fact.


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## geekspeak (Oct 1, 2002)

cwaring said:


> With the (relatively) small number of S1 units left in the UK I don't think the userbase could make enough noise to get anyone interested;


Yes but aren't they attempting to use us (validly) existing S1 users by offering upgrade first in order to spread the word about how great tivo is. Hence they think we can make enough noise. Non-Tivo users still don't "get it". Describe Tivo to most people and we still get the "oh yes my Sky+/V+ (even freeview PVR's ) does that" and they cannot see why anyone would pay £100's extra for new user interface and maybe a few nice extra "fun" features. If we are put in a position where instead of spreading the news how good Tivo is, we tell people "I used to have one but they cancelled my lifetime subscription", people won't take it up.

Tivo flopped in the UK last time and they could flop again this time. I doubt it will and certainly hope not but they need to keep us sweet.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

The supposition Carl makes is that there is no particular concentration of S1 owners in cabled or non-cabled areas, and that as such if 50&#37; of the population live in cabled areas then 50% of S1 owners will.

While it IS a supposition, it seems an entirely reasonable one - I'm struggling to think of why it might not be true? It's certainly a working assumption you'd tend to start with in the absence of any reason to think the geographic distribution of S 1s wasnt basically random.

Seems you're being a trifle picky, spitfires and sad_TiVo - and I assure you when it comes to being pedantic in a web forum, I know what I'm talking about!


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

geekspeak said:


> Tivo flopped in the UK last time and they could flop again this time. I doubt it will and certainly hope not but they need to keep us sweet.


It's hard to see how it could flop, even if VM don't persuade many to upgrade for cash, it will still be the basis of VM boxes going forwards.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> The supposition Carl makes....


No offence, but I am not making *any* such suppositions. In fact, I'm not making any suppositions _at all, whatsoever_. I am simply stating a fact; which - now that I have double-checked - I am happy to clarify.

From my contact at VM:
"Our network coverage is now 12.7m homes, representing 51% of the UK's homes".

http://investors.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=135485&p=irol-reportsOtherVirginMedia

So it's 'homes' not 'people'.

And this was in an email I sent before this Tivo stuff exploded and therefore, as I have stated all along, it has absolutely *nothing* to do with distribution of S1 Tivos.



spitfires said:


> Sorry Carl on this one you are wrong...


You were saying?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> No offence, but I am not making *any* such suppositions. In fact, I'm not making any suppositions _at all, whatsoever_. I am simply stating a fact; which - now that I have double-checked - I am happy to clarify.


You misunderstand Carl, no-one's doubting that 50% of the country lives in a cabled area, your supposition (as I said an entirely reasonable one) is that S1 owners are spread evenly around the country so that 50% of them are in cabled areas too.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Except that I was not considering S1 owners _at all_ in making that statement.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Well you should have been, because sad_tivo_man was, and you replied to him!


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Seems you're being a trifle picky, spitfires


No no you've got me wrong - I was _helping_ Carl with my original comment that "50%" _does_ assume an even spread of S1 users across the UK. I wasn't saying this was wrong! 

I could see that a lot of people would take Carl's bland "50%" answer as fact (since that is mostly what Carl trades in) when it was actually a guess.

It was he who then retorted that, in fact, he was referring only to VM's cable network coverage (& had therefore misinterpreted what the OP meant.)

I agree it is a fair assumption - can't see any reason for there being any other distribution (unless it was only sold in certain branches of Comet, e.g. only those in "the south"?).

So:
- 50% of UK population is covered by Virgin cable (fact)
- 50% of S1 users can transition to VM (reasonable supposition)


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> Well you should have been, because sad_tivo_man was, and you replied to him!


He asked...


sad_tivo_man said:


> How many people are not on the cable footprint ....


The answer is 50%. The latter part of the question was not relevant. But yes, I should have been clearer in my response.


spitfires said:


> I could see that a lot of people would take Carl's bland "50%" answer as fact (since that is mostly what Carl trades in) when it was actually a guess.


If it was a guess, it was right on the money! (Damn! Perhaps I should have done the lottery this week ) No, it was (as already proved) a actual *fact*.



spitfires said:


> It was he who then retorted that, in fact, he was referring only to *VM's cable network coverage *(& had therefore misinterpreted what the OP meant.)


Well as _you_ were the P to which I O replied, and you asked "how many people were not on the CABLE footprint...." that's the question I answered.

Actually I was wrong. The answer is 49%; because it is a fact that 51% are


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Well as _you_ were the P to which I O replied, and you asked "how many people were not on the CABLE footprint...." that's the question I answered.


Actually no. Seems you're wrong again.

(Hint: see post #48 above).

Shan't bother to try and help you in future.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Thanks. Really. Might actually help


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## ptruman (Jan 8, 2003)

TCM2007 said:


> For dial-up users that's unlikely, and the phone number appears to be hard wired into the software.


This intrigues me no-end - not just for the phone but ALSO the wired users.

a) Who owns the IP that currently serves the 'hacked' TiVos with EPG data?
Sky? Tribune?

b) Who owns the telephone numbers that support ALL S1s, and where does it forward to?

It's unclear who (if anyone) will cease support. If the 'service' continues, with no dial-in number in the UK, then IP users may still get service.

If the service is cut completely, then both IP and dial-up users are 'temporarily' screwed (see below).

As mentioned by the OP, providing data is not a problem, although sourcing it maybe, and obviously you have to know the EPG format (which I believe is known, due to the Digiguide hacks etc).

Now, using jiggery pokery, it should be possible to 
a) Change the IP address used for connection
AND/OR
b) Use router tweaking to 're-route' any connections for the address in (a) to a(nother) destination - granted this is for techies only)
AND/OR 
c) Use an ATA (Analogue Telephone Adapter) like a Linksys/Cisco SPA3102 to hijack calls to number X and route them to number Y instead.

All are fairly simply in terms of tech, although (c) carries a £50 h/w cost. The fun bit is ensuring you know the EPG format AND the phone request format that TiVo makes/receives. But this is what WireShark is for, although getting it inbetween a phone system is more 'challenging'.

I'm up for the discussion though


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

ptruman said:


> This intrigues me no-end - not just for the phone but ALSO the wired users.
> 
> a) Who owns the IP that currently serves the 'hacked' TiVos with EPG data?
> Sky? Tribune?
> ...


TiVo; networked machines contact it directly over the net; dial up machines dial an old style ISP PoP and from there to the TiVo IP address.



> . The fun bit is ensuring you know the EPG format AND the phone request format that TiVo makes/receives. But this is what WireShark is for, although getting it inbetween a phone system is more 'challenging'.
> 
> I'm up for the discussion though


All been figured out long ago by our Australian cousins, who imported S1s, rolled their own guide data from public sources, and hacked it in to their boxes. The procedures are well documented.


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## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

As entertaining as it is reading lots of posts written in a manner that suggest that Carl is slowly morphing into Pete I think the main point here is that there's nothing to worry about.

My view is that no one has said for sure the S1 EPG will disappear, and if it does, there will very quickly be an alternative solution available based on all the good work done by OzTiVo and others.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

alextegg said:


> As entertaining as it is reading lots of posts written in a manner that suggest that Carl is slowly morphing into Pete ...


No need for insults


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## steford (Oct 9, 2002)

To get back on topic - wouldn't the simplest thing for roll your own TV data be to grab XMLTV feeds (or similar), parse them and then reconfigure for Tivo in a simple automated script? Would seem like the least fuss built on a relatively solid platform already in place. Additional Tivo functionality could be scripted if required eg suggestions.

I'd happily donate for server space which wouldn't need to be much I wouldn't have thought.


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## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

Yes absolutely, and that's the point, this has already been done down under.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

The Oz system requires a complete re-image of your Tivo disc. Basically they replace the TiVo supplied software with a reprogramed version (that is specific to the Oz/NZ setup). I don't think we want that here.


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## martink0646 (Feb 8, 2005)

spitfires said:


> The Oz system requires a complete re-image of your Tivo disc. Basically they replace the TiVo supplied software with a reprogramed version (that is specific to the Oz/NZ setup). I don't think we want that here.


Hi Spitfires,

What we want is for the EPG data to continue, but if it doesn't I'm prepared to do (or pay for) the work.

Surely you will too rather than brick your TiVo?

Martin


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

spitfires said:


> The Oz system requires a complete re-image of your Tivo disc. Basically they replace the TiVo supplied software with a reprogramed version (that is specific to the Oz/NZ setup). I don't think we want that here.


You have to hack the system software to talk to the right server. Doesn't necessarily need to be done as a whole re-image, but that's probably easiest.


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## Leif_Davidsen (Jun 5, 2002)

If we are forced to move off Tivo EPG data to an Oz type solution - does this mean we could use more recent hardware? Was the Oz hardware better than our S1 units?


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

*sigh*

Of course I want my Tivo to continue - what I was saying is that the Oz system _requires _you to replace the existing image with their hacked version. If you want to use the Oz system then you _have_ to re-image (yes, you do). I think that is over-complicated for what _we_ need (hence "I don't think we want that here" - with emphasis on the word "that").



> Was the Oz hardware better than our S1 units?


No - they used S1 units imported from the US or our own trusty S1 Thompsons! 

Therefore I think we should look for something else. Especially if we want a solution that will work for the non-techy, joe public.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

spitfires said:


> what I was saying is that the Oz system _requires _you to replace the existing image with their hacked version. If you want to use the Oz system then you _have_ to re-image (yes, you do). I think that is over-complicated for what _we_ need (hence "I don't think we want that here" - with emphasis on the word "that").


You need to add the software which gets the guide data and loads it into the TiVo database. That requires hacking your TiVo. In theory you could do it without a complete re-image, but in practice why would you?

The Aussies also often imported US TiVos which also needed to be hacked for PAL.

I see someone's having a tinker, as there are headend slices dates Feb 7th on the Aussie server!



> Especially if we want a solution that will work for the non-techy, joe public.


Not an option as far as I can see; there's no "just change the phone number" type solution. At least rudimentary hacking skills required.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Ah yes the PAL thing - they had to unsolder the NTSC tuner and solder on a PAL one 

/etc/tclientUK.conf contains the dial-up numbers and subsequent IP address of the TiVo mothership 

Agree that some hacking will be required but I think we need to keep it as simple as poss, if poss


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

... of course an alternative would be that TiVo Inc _officially_ let us take over support and service for the UK S1 TiVos  - then _they_ could create a version just for us (2.5.5b) with all the necessary changes in it. Might be good for PR? (allows them to wash their hands of us while still being seen as 'nice')

Nah, I'm off in cuckoo land again...


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

You'd have to build a server which emulated the TiVo server as far as the box is concerned. I don't think the Aussies or Safas have managed that; I think they directly copy and then load slice files with a script running as a hack. Emulating the TiVo server is a lot harder. As you'd need to hack your Tivo to change that file (hadn't realised it was in a cleartext file, handy), you might as well install the Aussie-style system while you're at it.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

spitfires said:


> ... of course an alternative would be that TiVo Inc _officially_ let us take over support and service for the UK S1 TiVos  - then _they_ could create a version just for us (2.5.5b) with all the necessary changes in it. Might be good for PR? (allows them to wash their hands of us while still being seen as 'nice')
> 
> Nah, I'm off in cuckoo land again...


Well it would be worth asking if that day comes!


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## ramtops (Sep 26, 2005)

TCM2007 said:


> You'd have to build a server which emulated the TiVo server as far as the box is concerned. I don't think the Aussies or Safas have managed that; I think they directly copy and then load slice files with a script running as a hack. Emulating the TiVo server is a lot harder. As you'd need to hack your Tivo to change that file (hadn't realised it was in a cleartext file, handy), you might as well install the Aussie-style system while you're at it.


I doubt I'd have to build a *whole server* - and if that was necessary, I could bung a VM on one of my web servers.

I don't want to reimage - I have stacks of unwatched stuff!


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

You'd have to build something which emulated the TiVo server in terms of responding to the requests the TiVo box sends. That's complicated.

You can pull any unwatched video onto your PC and then re-insert it. Time consuming but possible.


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## einstein (Jul 19, 2001)

don't want to sound smug here, with the previous posts, of 12-18 months, but looks like we've been dumped!

I wondered why there were so many TiVos appearing on ebay!


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## STEPG (Feb 17, 2011)

Good (UK) evening TIVo people,

We're in the process of developing an open EPG pilot for Linux based satellite receivers. 

I am sure we could extend the scope of the pilot to support the time slice data required to populate TIVo's. 

If there are any NETWORK connected TIVo's that would be interested, let me know and we'll feed the response into the dev team

Kind Regards

Jon Brooks
SimplyTheEPG


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

I'd be interested and would like to hear more about your EPG.


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## djb2002 (May 1, 2006)

I'd certainly be interested in this too !

Thanks
Daniel


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## Fred Smith (Oct 5, 2002)

Another very interested TiVo user. Please keep us informed.


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## jessbert (May 20, 2005)

Defo interested! Count me in.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Well that's a huge show of support then - four of us! We are doomed.


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

Heuer said:


> Well that's a huge show of support then - four of us! We are doomed.


I drew this post to the attention of the tech guys, the ones who are actively seeking an alternative epg source, they are the ones that need to get involved with John and his team.

There is no point in a lot of individuals wasting his time.

Alek


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## Holmwood (Sep 2, 2006)

Would be very interested in further details of EPG Pilot.


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

Because the rules say that this discussion isn't really allowed, we've moved to Tivoland to continue planning. Yes, we're interested. Pop over and we can discuss it.


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

STEPG said:


> Good (UK) evening TIVo people,
> 
> We're in the process of developing an open EPG pilot for Linux based satellite receivers.
> 
> ...


If you would like to call at http://www.tivoland.com. Thats where the tec team is based. Thanks for your offer.

Alek


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## Paul_J (Jan 9, 2001)

Hi I have looked at both TivoLand and Tivocentral and I was wondering is everyone looking at the same solution or not.


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