# Tivo Mini 2-tuner loophole? Post info here



## mr_smits

It's been reported that you can buy a 4 tuner Tivo, connect a Mini to it, then disconnect the 4 tuner Tivo to gain the capability of using the Mini in a household of 2 tuner Premieres. I'm soon to be OTA only, and I have two 2-tuner Premieres and an TivoHD lifetimed. Using the Mini for streaming from 2 tuner boxes is of interest to me.


Have you tried it?
If you did, how long have you had the 4 tuner Tivo disconnected?
Besides not being able to hijack a tuner to watch live tv, have you noticed any issues?


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## teklock

mr_smits said:


> It's been reported that you can buy a 4 tuner Tivo, connect a Mini to it, then disconnect the 4 tuner Tivo to gain the capability of using the Mini in a household of 2 tuner Premieres. I'm soon to be OTA only, and I have two 2-tuner Premieres and an TivoHD lifetimed. Using the Mini for streaming from 2 tuner boxes is of interest to me.
> 
> 
> Have you tried it?
> If you did, how long have you had the 4 tuner Tivo disconnected?
> Besides not being able to hijack a tuner to watch live tv, have you noticed any issues?


omg, not another lets see how we can **** Tivo/BB until they change their 2 tuner policy thread.


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## mr_smits

teklock said:


> omg, not another lets see how we can **** Tivo/BB until they change their 2 tuner policy thread.


If you can't be helpful, don't post.


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## lessd

mr_smits said:


> It's been reported that you can buy a 4 tuner Tivo, connect a Mini to it, then disconnect the 4 tuner Tivo to gain the capability of using the Mini in a household of 2 tuner Premieres. I'm soon to be OTA only, and I have two 2-tuner Premieres and an TivoHD lifetimed. Using the Mini for streaming from 2 tuner boxes is of interest to me.
> 
> 
> Have you tried it?
> If you did, how long have you had the 4 tuner Tivo disconnected?
> Besides not being able to hijack a tuner to watch live tv, have you noticed any issues?


The problem is that just disconnection the 4 tuner TiVo from your network may not show what you want, you would have to remove the 4 tuner TiVo from your TiVo account before one would know if this so called loophole worked.


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## bradleys

I agree with Less - I also want to add another thought.

For this to work, we would have to assume that their is no parent child relationship between the DVR and the Mini. 

I suspect that the TiVo paired with the Mini also provides some level of control / information sharing with the Mini. Disconnecting the paired TiVo might work for a specific period of time, but eventually the Mini is going to want to poll the parent for some type of information.

This is when you would start to see error messages.


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## mr_smits

bradleys said:


> I suspect that the TiVo paired with the Mini also provides some level of control / information sharing with the Mini. Disconnecting the paired TiVo might work for a specific period of time, but eventually the Mini is going to want to poll the parent for some type of information.


This is THE big question. Does anyone know? Would official Tivo folks be willing to state definitively that this will only work for X amount of time?


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## NotNowChief

This is the song that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends.
Some people started singing it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue singing it forever just because . . .

This is the song that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends.
Some people started singing it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue singing it forever just because . . .

This is the song that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends.
Some people started singing it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue singing it forever just because . . .


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## overFEDEXed

mr_smits said:


> This is THE big question. Does anyone know? Would official Tivo folks be willing to state definitively that this will only work for X amount of time?


I know that when I disconnect my four tuner, I get the nag screen, EACH time that I access my two tuner, with my Mini. It's not that big of a deal for me, but....maybe others.

I posted the screens, in another thread. Also, I had my boxes "phone home" and I could still access the two tuner.

I have had my four tuner for some time, so it has been attached to my account for a while, if that matters.


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## steve614

mr_smits said:


> *Would* official *Tivo* folks *be willing* to state definitively that this will only work for X amount of time?












.


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## lessd

If somebody wants to invest in this non supported TiVo Mini use, the so call called loophole, be my guest and report back, but continuing speculation will get us nowhere.


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## HarperVision

bradleys said:


> I agree with Less - I also want to add another thought.
> 
> For this to work, we would have to assume that their is no parent child relationship between the DVR and the Mini.
> 
> I suspect that the TiVo paired with the Mini also provides some level of control / information sharing with the Mini. Disconnecting the paired TiVo might work for a specific period of time, but eventually the Mini is going to want to poll the parent for some type of information.
> 
> This is when you would start to see error messages.


See this post I made earlier.................

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9582557#post9582557


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## mr_smits

HarperVision said:


> See this post I made earlier.................
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9582557#post9582557


The nag screens don't bother me, and the guide data, while interesting, isn't needed for my scenario. I understand that the Mini cannot use live tv on a 2 tuner box. I'm just looking for a box to stream recorded content from my 2 tuner Premiere boxes.


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## magnus

mr_smits said:


> It's been reported that you can buy a 4 tuner Tivo, connect a Mini to it, then disconnect the 4 tuner Tivo to gain the capability of using the Mini in a household of 2 tuner Premieres. I'm soon to be OTA only, and I have two 2-tuner Premieres and an TivoHD lifetimed. Using the Mini for streaming from 2 tuner boxes is of interest to me.
> 
> 
> Have you tried it?
> If you did, how long have you had the 4 tuner Tivo disconnected?
> Besides not being able to hijack a tuner to watch live tv, have you noticed any issues?


While I agree that Tivo not allowing the 2 tuner Premiere is complete BS.... I don't see the reason to do something that is not supported... even if it did work you have the potential to throw $250 out the door eventually. That's not something that I'm interested in.


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## mr_smits

magnus said:


> While I agree that Tivo not allowing the 2 tuner Premiere is complete BS.... I don't see the reason to do something that is not supported... even if it did work you have the potential to throw $250 out the door eventually. That's not something that I'm interested in.


I have a need for a Mini in a room that I don't require live TV. Streaming from 2 tuner boxes is enough for me.

If I have a lifetimed Mini, I can always sell it if it stops working as a 2 tuner box extender. The value doesn't go to zero if Tivo closes the loophole.


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## magnus

mr_smits said:


> I have a need for a Mini in a room that I don't require live TV. Streaming from 2 tuner boxes is enough for me.
> 
> If I have a lifetimed Mini, I can always sell it if it stops working as a 2 tuner box extender. The value doesn't go to zero if Tivo closes the loophole.


Yep but it's not $250 either.


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## mr_smits

magnus said:


> Yep but it's not $250 either.


You're right. It's probably at least $260 since it is a new product.


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## Saxion

This is a very interesting thread, thanks for starting it. There is a lot of interest in only streaming prerecorded shows from a 2-tuner Premiere.


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## mr_smits

Saxion said:


> This is a very interesting thread, thanks for starting it. There is a lot of interest in only streaming prerecorded shows from a 2-tuner Premiere.


This is really a temporary solution for me until Tivo releases their next >2 tuner box that supports OTA and hopefully streaming to tablets.


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## magnus

mr_smits said:


> You're right. It's probably at least $260 since it is a new product.


doubtful. unless you are meaning that it will cost you more than $250 for it to begin with.


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## mr_smits

magnus said:


> doubtful. unless you are meaning that it will cost you more than $250 for it to begin with.


Probably worth at least $270 (paid $250).


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## SugarBowl

Saxion said:


> This is a very interesting thread, thanks for starting it. There is a lot of interest in only streaming prerecorded shows from a 2-tuner Premiere.


This is exactly what the TiVo Stream does. Too bad the mini can't work the same.


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## h2oskierc

SugarBowl said:


> This is exactly what the TiVo Stream does. Too bad the mini can't work the same.


Also doesn't work with Android. Rules that one out for me too.


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## Bigg

Somebody should just set up a Premiere 4 on here, and give people a day or two of Sling and VPN access to it for a small fee, and then it can just go from account to account activating TiVo Mini's. I wonder how long until TiVo notices the thing has switched accounts a zillion times and hundreds of different TiVos have "been" at that one "location".


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## steve614

mr_smits said:


> Probably worth at least $270 (paid $250).


How do you figure? Why would someone pay you $270 when they could get brand new for $250?


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## magnus

steve614 said:


> How do you figure? Why would someone pay you $270 when they could get brand new for $250?


+1


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## Dan203

Unless they are in short supply that's never going to happen.

But you probably wouldn't lose much if you had to sell. Short term it will likely retain much of it's new value, so it's not a huge risk.


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## HarperVision

steve614 said:


> How do you figure? Why would someone pay you $270 when they could get brand new for $250?


methinks he was being a bit sarcastic  

I do have to say it's a bit fitting that he said that today because I replied to a person selling a used XBox360 slim 4GB on Craigslist for $225 and I asked him why he's selling it for $26 MORE than I can buy a new one at my local Target which is factory sealed new in box. His answer was "I got two so selling one..it is in good condition" to which I replied "but I can buy new factory sealed in box for $26 LESS!" and he replied back "OK" WTF?!?!?!


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## aaronwt

Plenty of auctions on Ebay end up at a price that is higher than getting the product from Amazon and other online retailers.


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## Saxion

At any rate, it's safe to say that a used Mini could be easily resold to recover a good portion of the cost, even a long time from now (if this loophole were closed by Tivo someday in the future), making the risk of trying this pretty small. The question is...who will try it first?


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## kettledrum

HarperVision said:


> methinks he was being a bit sarcastic
> 
> I do have to say it's a bit fitting that he said that today because I replied to a person selling a used XBox360 slim 4GB on Craigslist for $225 and I asked him why he's selling it for $26 MORE than I can buy a new one at my local Target which is factory sealed new in box. His answer was "I got two so selling one..it is in good condition" to which I replied "but I can buy new factory sealed in box for $26 LESS!" and he replied back "OK" WTF?!?!?!


Sounds like a typical CL email exchange to me.


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## Davisadm

Back to the topic on hand:

So, a question for the people who take advantage of this loophole, set up the Mini, and then return return the 4 tuner TiVo: What happens when down the road the Mini stops working? Are you going to buy another 4 tuner TiVo to get the Mini working again, and then return the 4 tuner TiVo, again?


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## aaronwt

Has anyone even said they would try it? I really don't see the point because at some point it will not work.

Sent from my HTC ReZound using Forum Runner


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## lessd

Davisadm said:


> Back to the topic on hand:
> 
> So, a question for the people who take advantage of this loophole, set up the Mini, and then return return the 4 tuner TiVo: What happens when down the road the Mini stops working? Are you going to buy another 4 tuner TiVo to get the Mini working again, and then return the 4 tuner TiVo, again?


If you have two Lifetime TPs you can sell them on E-Bay, purchase a TP-4 and a Mini + a 2Tb drive, purchase cost with some sales tax under $1100, I just sold my 2 TPs today on E-Bay for $1090 for both, my net after shipping was about $990, my cash outlay is now about $100 or so + I can sell my two "N" TiVo adapters for a net of $80 for both, so the cost is very little. I know this is not for everybody but if you are going to go into this odd ball way of getting a Mini to work, you should be able to do what I just did so you know the job is done correctly.


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## mr_smits

aaronwt said:


> I really don't see the point because at some point it will not work.


You don't know that unless you've tried it or a Tivo official has stated that this is the case. That's the entire point of this thread.

I may give this a try in the next month or two.


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## SugarBowl

lessd said:


> If you have two Lifetime TPs you can sell them on E-Bay, purchase a TP-4 and a Mini + a 2Tb drive, purchase cost with some sales tax under $1100, I just sold my 2 TPs today on E-Bay for $1090 for both, my net after shipping was about $990, my cash outlay is now about $100 or so + I can sell my two "N" TiVo adapters for a net of $80 for both, so the cost is very little. I know this is not for everybody but if you are going to go into this odd ball way of getting a Mini to work, you should be able to do what I just did so you know the job is done correctly.


If you have cable this is fine, but not for OTA only.


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## aaronwt

mr_smits said:


> You don't know that unless you've tried it or a Tivo official has stated that this is the case. That's the entire point of this thread.
> 
> I may give this a try in the next month or two.


The only way to know for sure is to set it up for the long term. But I would be shocked if it could be set up that way indefinitely. I figure at some point it would need to recheck to see if the P4 is still on the account.


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## mr_smits

aaronwt said:


> The only way to know for sure is to set it up for the long term. But I would be shocked if it could be set up that way indefinitely. I figure at some point it would need to recheck to see if the P4 is still on the account.


How long is long term? 30 days? 60?

I actually think it is more likely to be set up that way. From a programming perspective, what checks would Tivo build in and what purpose would those serve *after* the initial set up? It seems like a waste of initial and ongoing resources to keep checking without a specific purpose.


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## lessd

mr_smits said:


> How long is long term? 30 days? 60?
> 
> I actually think it is more likely to be set up that way. From a programming perspective, what checks would Tivo build in and what purpose would those serve *after* the initial set up? It seems like a waste of initial and ongoing resources to keep checking without a specific purpose.


We don't know what the system is that the Mini uses, I could not get my Mini to mate to my new TiVo Q4 (before I put a cable card in the unit), the TiVo CSR told me to try and pull the cable card out of another Q4 and see if the Mini would mate, and it would still mate to that Q4 so I did not think is was the cable card, so much for that assumption, as I put a cable card into the new Q4 (from one of my TPs) and after a call home it mated great !!. So if your OTA you can't get the Mini to mate to any Q4 as you don't have any cable cards.


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## steve614

In order to know for sure, someone is going to have to be the guinea pig.

I don't think it will work long term. TiVo could easily add code (if it doesn't already exist) to shut down the Mini if the host it was paired with fails to call in within X number of days.


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## mr_smits

steve614 said:


> In order to know for sure, someone is going to have to be the guinea pig.
> 
> I don't think it will work long term. TiVo could easily add code (if it doesn't already exist) to shut down the Mini if the host it was paired with fails to call in within X number of days.


Tivo could do that -- but why would they go out of their way to close a loophole that only a small percentage of users will use? Right now, the loophole is the only way OTA users can use the Mini.

If the loophole is planned to be closed, I hope it is after the next Tivo box with OTA support is released. That is really the only reason why I will be testing this out.


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## Saxion

mr_smits said:


> Tivo could do that -- but why would they go out of their way to close a loophole that only a small percentage of users will use?


I agree. TiVo has a history of leaving backdoor features alone that are only known by "in-the-know" power users (like 30-sec skip). I believe the reasons the Mini is tied to a 4-tuner TiVo are 1) fear of support costs and 2) fear of not meeting user expectations: TiVo wants to ensure MOCA is available (to discourage streaming over WiFi) and wants to minimize the disruption of stealing a tuner for live TV. In particular, I don't believe their primary motivation is to encourage folks to upgrade to a 4-tuner host; if that were the case why not just delay the Mini and have it only work with the next gen TiVo HW shipping in the fall?

For power users who understand the limitations of using a 2-tuner TiVo, I don't think TiVo would actively block their use by closing such a loophole. It's not worth their time, and they gain almost nothing from ticking off their power users.


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## aaronwt

Saxion said:


> I agree. TiVo has a history of leaving backdoor features alone that are only known by "in-the-know" power users (like 30-sec skip). I believe the reasons the Mini is tied to a 4-tuner TiVo are 1) fear of support costs and 2) fear of not meeting user expectations: TiVo wants to ensure MOCA is available (to discourage streaming over WiFi) and wants to minimize the disruption of stealing a tuner for live TV. In particular, I don't believe their primary motivation is to encourage folks to upgrade to a 4-tuner host; if that were the case why not just delay the Mini and have it only work with the next gen TiVo HW shipping in the fall?
> 
> For power users who understand the limitations of using a 2-tuner TiVo, I don't think TiVo would actively block their use by closing such a loophole. It's not worth their time, and they gain almost nothing from ticking off their power users.


The problem is that to use this, a person needs to buy a P4, add it to the account and then remove it and get a refund. That right there should be a big incentive for TiVo to prevent it.


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## Saxion

aaronwt said:


> The problem is that to use this, a person needs to buy a P4, add it to the account and then remove it and get a refund. That right there should be a big incentive for TiVo to prevent it.


If this worked for a small number of people now, but TiVo decided later to discourage it going forward (for the above reason), would it be in TiVo's best interest to break existing working systems in use by some of their power users? One could argue that at that point it would be in TiVo's best interest to create a new backdoor (SPS code, whatever) that would allow such users to continue to use their existing HW but without needing to buy/return a 4-tuner host.

It comes down to probabilities, but there is a good chance that either this loophole (if it currently exists) won't be actively shut down, or if it is then an alternative loophole might be opened.


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## mr_smits

Saxion said:


> It comes down to probabilities, but there is a good chance that either this loophole (if it currently exists) won't be actively shut down, or if it is then an alternative loophole might be opened.


I agree.


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## Bigg

Saxion said:


> If this worked for a small number of people now, but TiVo decided later to discourage it going forward (for the above reason), would it be in TiVo's best interest to break existing working systems in use by some of their power users? One could argue that at that point it would be in TiVo's best interest to create a new backdoor (SPS code, whatever) that would allow such users to continue to use their existing HW but without needing to buy/return a 4-tuner host.
> 
> It comes down to probabilities, but there is a good chance that either this loophole (if it currently exists) won't be actively shut down, or if it is then an alternative loophole might be opened.


It'll take them 5 years to fix it and by then, everyone will have newer hardware that supports the Mini anyways.


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## lessd

Bigg said:


> It'll take them 5 years to fix it and by then, everyone will have newer hardware that supports the Mini anyways.


Why would TiVo fix something that they don't support, if people want to purchase a Mini for a non supported use, that does not harm TiVo in any way I can think of.


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## tivoboy

aaronwt said:


> Plenty of auctions on Ebay end up at a price that is higher than getting the product from Amazon and other online retailers.


yes, but tivo owners aren't that stupid. ;-)


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## Arcady

tivoboy said:


> yes, but tivo owners aren't that stupid. ;-)


The new ones who paid $375 for a 6 year old TiVo might be.


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## Bigg

lessd said:


> Why would TiVo fix something that they don't support, if people want to purchase a Mini for a non supported use, that does not harm TiVo in any way I can think of.


I don't know. That timescale is just something TiVo would do.


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## Saxion

So, who's going to try this first?


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## Austin Bike

lessd said:


> Why would TiVo fix something that they don't support, if people want to purchase a Mini for a non supported use, that does not harm TiVo in any way I can think of.


Because to make this work you buy a 4-tuner system, then return it for a refund. This will become expensive for TiVo and if it becomes a problem they would take steps to keep it from happening.


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## mr_smits

Saxion said:


> So, who's going to try this first?


I said I would, but I am holding off for the time being. I just cut the cord and made the switchover for the entire house yesterday. I'm returning my 3 cable cards and tuning adapter this afternoon.

If OTA only doesn't work or isn't satisfactory for our needs, then I will try out this loophole by (1) buying a 4 tuner Elite (2) buying 2 minis (3) activating and using the Elite for a few days (4) disconnecting the Elite and waiting to return it for a refund before the return window has closed. If the loophole works, I'll keep the Minis. If the loophole doesn't work, I'll return the 2 Minis as well.


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## lessd

Austin Bike said:


> Because to make this work you buy a 4-tuner system, then return it for a refund. This will become expensive for TiVo and if it becomes a problem they would take steps to keep it from happening.


I can't see many people doing this return stuff, too much of a pain for not much gain, you can sell a Lifetime TP on E-Bay and upgrade to a new TP-4 for under $200.


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## Austin Bike

eBay is easier than walking back to best buy for 100% cash back? You have to place the item, pay eBay, get paid by the seller, then ship it to him. I can't see a world where you can do all that and not lose money. And time. 

The implication from the original post is that you just need a 4 tuner for a day to get the mini activated.


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## lessd

Austin Bike said:


> eBay is easier than walking back to best buy for 100% cash back? You have to place the item, pay eBay, get paid by the seller, then ship it to him. I can't see a world where you can do all that and not lose money. And time.
> 
> The implication from the original post is that you just need a 4 tuner for a day to get the mini activated.


What I was trying to say is trading up from a TP to a TP-4 but I forgot about OTA missing on the TP-4, my Mini would not connect to my TP-4 until I put an active cable card into the TP-4, that may be a problem as one would also have to get and return a cable card.


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## Arcady

You guys sound like a bunch of people putting Ferrari body kits on a Fiero.

Just buy the real thing. Guess what? It costs less than the Fiero.


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## slowbiscuit

Totally missed the point, which is that if you're OTA only and you want a Mini you have to do dumb stuff like this. Dumb because of Tivo's limitations, that is.


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## farmermac

aaronwt said:


> The problem is that to use this, a person needs to buy a P4, add it to the account and then remove it and get a refund. That right there should be a big incentive for TiVo to prevent it.


Except TiVo is so used to having tivos returned because of out of the box problems they'll never notice


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## Saxion

Arcady said:


> You guys sound like a bunch of people putting Ferrari body kits on a Fiero. Just buy the real thing.


Snarky remarks aren't helpful. What, exactly, are OTA-only people supposed to buy?


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## atmuscarella

Saxion said:


> Snarky remarks aren't helpful.


:up:


Saxion said:


> What, exactly, are OTA-only people supposed to buy?


Another Premiere or used Series 3 unit is the only option right now.

Hopefully TiVo will release a new unit that supports OTA that will support the Mini for those who do not want multiple DVRs but until then whole home for OTA = multiple DVRs.


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## Saxion

atmuscarella said:


> Hopefully TiVo will release a new unit that supports OTA that will support the Mini for those who do not want multiple DVRs


I truly wish TiVo would offer that; I would buy such a product immediately, along with 2 Minis. I am on cable now but planning to go OTA-only in the near future, so I don't want to invest in a system (XL4) that prevents me from going that route. Buying 2 more Premiere's just for Mini-esq functionality means higher HW costs, higher TiVo service costs, higher Cable costs (2xCableCARDs), and higher power consumption costs. TiVo has not provided me any attractive roadmap. Thus the interest in this workaround solution, which I hope will get me by until TiVo releases such a DVR.


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## Arcady

Saxion said:


> Snarky remarks aren't helpful. What, exactly, are OTA-only people supposed to buy?


A second Premiere. It's only like $100 more and you get a whole DVR with it. You can choose to ignore that it is a DVR if you want, and it does the same thing as a Mini, without killing a tuner on your main box.


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## Davisadm

Arcady said:


> A second Premiere. It's only like $100 more and you get a whole DVR with it. You can choose to ignore that it is a DVR if you want, and it does the same thing as a Mini, without killing a tuner on your main box.


And $13 monthly or $400-500 lifetime vs $$6 monthly or $149 lifetime
Plus cable company outlet and cablecard fees. So a second Premiere is considerably more.


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## slowbiscuit

Arcady said:


> A second Premiere. It's only like $100 more and you get a whole DVR with it. You can choose to ignore that it is a DVR if you want, and it does the same thing as a Mini, without killing a tuner on your main box.


It's at least $200 more per box (gets expensive fast for whole home), draws more power, takes longer to boot. The Mini is the answer, not more DVRs if you don't need them.


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## lessd

slowbiscuit said:


> It's at least $200 more per box (gets expensive fast for whole home), draws more power, takes longer to boot. The Mini is the answer, not more DVRs if you don't need them.


To test your idea you will have to get a TP-4, activate it, order cable service, order a cable card, active the cable card, at that point your idea will work, than cancel the TiVo activation, cancel your cable service, return the cable card, return the TP-4, and now see if the Mini will work over a long period of time. My Mini would not pair with my active TP-4 until I got a cable card into the TP-4 and activated the card.


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## mr_smits

lessd said:


> My Mini would not pair with my active TP-4 until I got a cable card into the TP-4 and activated the card.


The unanswered question is: after pairing with the TP-4 and then removing the TP-4 from the system, will the Mini still function properly or will it stop functioning after 2 weeks/30 days/60 days, etc?


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## Saxion

lessd said:


> My Mini would not pair with my active TP-4 until I got a cable card into the TP-4 and activated the card.


Thanks lessd, that is very useful information. For those folks (myself included) already on cable, it should be easy to have the cable company reprovision our existing CableCARD over the phone in order to get the new TP4 box working. But folks with OTA-only setups would have significantly more hoops to jump through because of this, to the point it's probably infeasible for them.


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## mr_smits

I really wish someone from Tivo would answer this question once and for all.


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## Arcady

slowbiscuit said:


> It's at least $200 more per box (gets expensive fast for whole home), draws more power, takes longer to boot. The Mini is the answer, not more DVRs if you don't need them.


The price difference I can understand. Power use? Okay.

Boot time? That's a really silly argument. Are you booting your TiVo a lot?

Someone asked what to use for OTA. I gave the only answer. If you are using it for OTA, then there are no cable outlet fees or CableCard fees, so those excuses are moot. Even if you have cable, you don't need to use the second TiVo as a DVR on cable.


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## lessd

mr_smits said:


> The unanswered question is: after pairing with the TP-4 and then removing the TP-4 from the system, will the Mini still function properly or will it stop functioning after 2 weeks/30 days/60 days, etc?


I does keep functioning for about 10 min.


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## Saxion

lessd said:


> I does keep functioning for about 10 min.


Can you elaborate? What exactly happens after 10 min?


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## lessd

Saxion said:


> Can you elaborate? What exactly happens after 10 min?


*I put the TP-4 back on line*, at the time I just wanted to know if I took the TP-4 off line would the Mini not work with the other TPs I had at that time, the Mini keep working at least for 10 minutes, a few weeks later I changed all my TPs for one less TiVo as I had 4 TPs with cable cards, now I have 3 TP-4s and a Mini, the TiVo home system now using only 3 Cable cards and I have more tuners to record (11 tuners vs 8 before). I also sold all my TPs and wifi adapters, as I now can use the built in Moca. 
This most likely does not help much in your OTC/Mini work-around.


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## Arcady

lessd said:


> This most likely does not help much in your OTC/Mini work-around.


It has nothing to do with anything.


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## moedaman

Saxion said:


> Snarky remarks aren't helpful. What, exactly, are OTA-only people supposed to buy?


Microcenter sells refurbished Dell Core2Duo pc's (with Win 7) for under $175. Buy an external hdd for $60, install your favorite transfer software and use that on your second tv. At least you'll be able to stream Netflix, Hulu and Amazon without any problems using the pc.

Is it the perfect solution? For some it is, for most no. But it is an option.


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## jmpage2

moedaman said:


> Microcenter sells refurbished Dell Core2Duo pc's (with Win 7) for under $175. Buy an external hdd for $60, install your favorite transfer software and use that on your second tv. At least you'll be able to stream Netflix, Hulu and Amazon without any problems using the pc.
> 
> Is it the perfect solution? For some it is, for most no. But it is an option.


I doubt even 1% of users would contemplate using something like a PC running windows to replace a DVR like TiVo.


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## moedaman

jmpage2 said:


> I doubt even 1% of users would contemplate using something like a PC running windows to replace a DVR like TiVo.


This is why I mentioned it. Most people are so concerned about using a mini, they've forgotten that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Besides I didn't say replace a Tivo. I said to use it a substitute for a mini. Plenty of people on this site use Tivo Desktop or the third party apps on their pc. Why not connect that pc to a tv?

Of course, I've had a pc connected to my basement hdtv since 2006. Whenever I see a question about home entertainment, my answer usually has the letters h t p & c in it.


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## jmpage2

moedaman said:


> This is why I mentioned it. Most people are so concerned about using a mini, they've forgotten that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Besides I didn't say replace a Tivo. I said to use it a substitute for a mini. Plenty of people on this site use Tivo Desktop or the third party apps on their pc. Why not connect that pc to a tv?
> 
> Of course, I've had a pc connected to my basement hdtv since 2006. Whenever I see a question about home entertainment, my answer usually has the letters h t p & c in it.


I do have an HTPC that runs XBMC and serves up my BD and DVD rips. It is also good at playing music, etc. It also doesn't run Windows.

A Mini extends the functions of a central TiVo, is relatively inexpensive ($250 including lifetime service) and is an "appliance" that requires no real setup or maintenance. It also uses a fraction of the electricity of even a low end PC.

I wouldn't even contemplate replacing it with a PC, and I am more knowledgeable about PCs then most people.


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## moedaman

jmpage2 said:


> It also doesn't run Windows.


I mentioned Windows because most people are familiar with it. I take it you don't like Windows, otherwise there is no real need to even mention it in this context. 


> A Mini extends the functions of a central TiVo, is relatively inexpensive ($250 including lifetime service) and is an "appliance" that requires no real setup or maintenance. It also uses a fraction of the electricity of even a low end PC.
> 
> I wouldn't even contemplate replacing it with a PC, and I am more knowledgeable about PCs then most people.


Like I said I was giving options. Most people are myopic when discussing a subject. Look, the mini isn't for an ota user. Instead of *****ing about it, people should look at their options.


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## Saxion

moedaman said:


> Like I said I was giving options.


Moedaman, thanks for pointing out this option. It is good to consider all possibilities. An HTPC isn't an attractive option for me, but it might work for other folks.

Mr_smits, do you still think you might give the Mini loophole a try in the next month?


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## mr_smits

Saxion said:


> Mr_smits, do you still think you might give the Mini loophole a try in the next month?


I just switched to OTA, but if OTA doesn't cut it then I will bring back the cablecards and test out the Mini loophole.


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## SeaFractor

mr_smits said:


> You don't know that unless you've tried it or a Tivo official has stated that this is the case. That's the entire point of this thread.
> 
> I may give this a try in the next month or two.


Tivo need not answer this question, ever. Why? They've already stated what is "supported". Why would they need to clarify what end-user attempted solutions, like temporarily matching to someone elses 4 tuner Tivo might do?

That's like a hospital that says "we don't do this surgery period" and someone asking what the complications would be.


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## mr_smits

SeaFractor said:


> Tivo need not answer this question, ever. Why? They've already stated what is "supported". Why would they need to clarify what end-user attempted solutions, like temporarily matching to someone elses 4 tuner Tivo might do?
> 
> That's like a hospital that says "we don't do this surgery period" and someone asking what the complications would be.


This isn't for what is "supported"; it is for what is possible. If I tried this and it works I know Tivo won't support any issues that come up from it. Just like they won't support wifi on Mini connections, they wouldn't support this loophole. However, if it works then I can start reaping the benefits of the Mini immediately instead of waiting for the next, possible but not guaranteed Tivo box that supports OTA.

If it's not possible, an official Tivo person could end the speculation.


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## Austin Bike

mr_smits said:


> This isn't for what is "supported"; it is for what is possible. If I tried this and it works I know Tivo won't support any issues that come up from it. Just like they won't support wifi on Mini connections, they wouldn't support this loophole. However, if it works then I can start reaping the benefits of the Mini immediately instead of waiting for the next, possible but not guaranteed Tivo box that supports OTA.
> 
> If it's not possible, an official Tivo person could end the speculation.


Having been on the other side I can tell you why this is a bad thing. They have made their position known. Any discussion outside of what is officially supported can lead to support issues down the road. The official line is "this is what is supported" and they can't deviate.

We always had people trying to use our products for applications they were not tested or qualified for. I knew they worked that way, that is how I used them at home, but I could not ever discuss that in public. Because of cost/support issues you need to stick to the company line.


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## SeaFractor

mr_smits said:


> If it's not possible, an official Tivo person could end the speculation.


Not likely to happen. As stated in the posting above, it opens up new support headaches and potential liabilities. Also might impact any license negotiations for "streaming" that is included into the premium purchase of a 4 tuner appliance.

So who's willing to shell out the price and have it fail within some range of time, if a "re-key/refresh" occurs between the Mini and the Premiere?

Will the 4 tuner owner who was willing to help out get stuck with a monthly Mini fee on their billing as well? Will some kind of billing error occur for the 2 tuner owner, as the Mini shouldn't be able to be activated on their account?

Fun stuff.


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## lessd

SeaFractor said:


> Not likely to happen. As stated in the posting above, it opens up new support headaches and potential liabilities. Also might impact any license negotiations for "streaming" that is included into the premium purchase of a 4 tuner appliance.
> 
> So who's willing to shell out the price and have it fail within some range of time, if a "re-key/refresh" occurs between the Mini and the Premiere?
> 
> Will the 4 tuner owner who was willing to help out get stuck with a monthly Mini fee on their billing as well? Will some kind of billing error occur for the 2 tuner owner, as the Mini shouldn't be able to be activated on their account?
> 
> Fun stuff.


That part of the problem, if it did work the next software update may kill the system, after some period of time (days months etc) the system may stop working, no way to know in advance on a non supported TiVo system.


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## Arcady

lessd said:


> That part of the problem, if it did work the next software update may kill the system, after some period of time (days months etc) the system may stop working, no way to know in advance on a non supported TiVo system.


I remember people talking like this about hard drive upgrades 10 years ago.


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## lessd

Arcady said:


> I remember people talking like this about hard drive upgrades 10 years ago.


Yes but the investment in an upgraded hard drive was not that much money and you could keep your original drive, if TiVo had ever disabled upgraded drives, the drive could be use in your computer. TiVo does not care about drive upgrades as they can and do stop support for some people with upgraded drives, but TiVo could disable all TiVos with upgraded drives, that would not be to their advantage. At some point, way in the past, TiVo even asked if you had an upgraded drive and wanted to know the size.


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## mr_smits

SeaFractor said:


> Not likely to happen. As stated in the posting above, it opens up new support headaches and potential liabilities. Also might impact any license negotiations for "streaming" that is included into the premium purchase of a 4 tuner appliance.


How is Tivo saying "this isn't possible" going to open them up to support headaches? It would do the exact opposite.

I suppose we could read into Tivo's silence to mean that they cannot acknowledge that it DOES work or is possible since that would result in the support headaches. However, if it simply does not work they could state that and end the speculation.

Round and round we go.


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## lessd

mr_smits said:


> How is Tivo saying "this isn't possible" going to open them up to support headaches? It would do the exact opposite.
> 
> I suppose we could read into Tivo's silence to mean that they cannot acknowledge that it DOES work or is possible since that would result in the support headaches. However, if it simply does not work they could state that and end the speculation.
> 
> Round and round we go.


Most co.s do not tell what their product does *not* do ! TiVo never said that I can't make my morning toast using just a TiVo, they also never said that I can upgrade the hard drive, like most co.s TiVo tells you what the produce can do, one goes to user forums to find out other things one can do with some products.


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## Arcady

What the hell is a co.s?


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## slowbiscuit

lessd said:


> like most co.s TiVo tells you what the produce can do,


Make salad?


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## lessd

Arcady said:


> What the hell is a co.s?


Short for* companies*


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## SeaFractor

mr_smits said:


> How is Tivo saying "this isn't possible" going to open them up to support headaches? It would do the exact opposite.
> 
> I suppose we could read into Tivo's silence to mean that they cannot acknowledge that it DOES work or is possible since that would result in the support headaches. However, if it simply does not work they could state that and end the speculation.
> 
> Round and round we go.


What if the answer was "it's possible but it's not supported?" Then a number of users, following the trend of the forum purchase the Mini based on a feature not "supported" by Tivo. Then a future update stops them from functioning.

Does that benefit the customers? Benefit Tivo? What are the support lines like at that point? Over-saturated for demands that a feature that is not "supported" be reinstated?

So it's far more simple and less of an issue legally to simply say "not supported" and keep us with no indication of if it's possible.

As for the benefit, I'd sure like to have the Mini work. I've a two tuner unit as I'm OTA only. So purchasing an XL4 would only be of benefit if I subscribe to cable. Not happening. I purchased the Premiere for OTA specifically, so it does seem unfortunate that the Mini is not available.

I suspect that this could change if enough customers voice their desire for it.

The other solution? A 4 tuner Premiere that also supports OTA. I'd really be for that.


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## mr_smits

SeaFractor said:


> What if the answer was "it's possible but it's not supported?" Then a number of users, following the trend of the forum purchase the Mini based on a feature not "supported" by Tivo. Then a future update stops them from functioning.


The only answer I would expect is "it is not possible" and that would end the discussion. Tivo doesn't support upgraded hard drives either, but they do not actively discourage people from doing so or prohibit companies like Weak Knees from doing so. Tivo doesn't support the Mini using a wireless bridge, but there are a number of people using that method. I don't think Tivo is punitive to power users that want to explore its products' capabilities, so I doubt they would disable the loophole if it indeed exists.

As it is, I will likely buy the rumored 4 tuner OTA/cable box with upgraded hardware and hopefully Stream capabilities if it is released this year. I will then buy 2 Minis for the other TVs so I can finally have a central box for all shows.


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