# Lost "The Substitute" 2/16/2010



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

What a great episode!

Ok, it's only 18 minutes in, but I wanted to start the thread out cheerfully.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Looks like they can't get away from each other whether they are on the island or not! LOL


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Great! The numbers have a purpose. And that purpose is ...?


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

very interesting...



Spoiler



kate's name was not assigned to a number as a candidate, but she was visited by jacob


(spoiled cause i don't want to ruin it for anyone just browsing without seeing the episode yet)

great episode compared to last week


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

42-Kwan
8- Reyes
15-Ford
16-Jarrah
23-Shepard
4-Locke

So, maybe, just maybe, the numbers mean something after all.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

mqpickles said:


> 42-Kwan
> 8- Reyes
> 15-Ford
> 16-Jarrah
> ...


4- Locke
23- Shepherd


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

mqpickles said:


> 42-Kwan
> 8- Reyes
> 15-Ford
> 16-Jarrah
> ...


I think Shepherd was 23 ... 4 was Locke.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I have a hunch not-Locke's explanation for the numbers ("Jacob had a thing for numbers") was both an ironic commentary on, well, us, and the only explanation we're going to get.

But it does take us one tiny step closer to my theory that the show ends with Jack and Sawyer as the new Jacob and not-Locke.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> 42-Kwan
> 8- Reyes
> 15-Ford
> 16-Jarrah
> ...


4-Locke
23-Shephard


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

robbhimself said:


> very interesting...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



We didn't see her name associated with one of THE numbers, but that doesn't mean her name wasn't on the wall somewhere.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

sorry for the ninja edit, guys


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I have a hunch not-Locke's explanation for the numbers ("Jacob had a thing for numbers") was both an ironic commentary on, well, us, and the only explanation we're going to get.


Probably true. But it was a nice little touch.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Wow...that was a fun ride.

So Locke is going to try to get them all to leave one by one, of their own volition. If they disagree, or want to stay, does that mean he'll kill them??

Also, when Locke says there is nothing threatening the island, it made me wonder where Widmore was. Also what is his part in this whole thing? 

Loved the Locke back story and the inter - mingling of all the Oceanic passengers. Nice off island job for Ben Linus!


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Also liked the tossing of the white rock...it's an inside joke. 

Wonder what would've happened if Sawyer actually shot Locke.

Nice eulogy by Ben


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

robbhimself said:


> very interesting...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well we didn't see the full suite of numbers, so I'd say it's not fully answered yet, but I like where they're going with this..

Diane


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Nice eulogy by Ben


Interesting that he would admit to killing Locke, but wouldn't cop to killing Jacob.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But it does take us one tiny step closer to my theory that the show ends with Jack and Sawyer as the new Jacob and not-Locke.


I think you're getting very warm with this. One by one, episode by episode, Locke will give the numbered survivors a choice and most will chose to leave or not care about the island. Jack, in the end, and after causing so much death, will chose to stay on the island and it'll be him vs Locke (or Sawyer??).

Who was the little kid? Little Jacob?? And why did he have blood on his arms / hands when we first saw him?

Also, they still haven't really explained Richard in all of this...


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Great to see Ben as a European History teacher.

I was sure that Locke was going to walk again in timeline X, but was happily surprised at his embracing his lot in life (and being seemingly ok with being told what he can't do ~ it was amusing to see Fake-Locke use Locke's mantra).


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Shakhari said:


> Interesting that he would admit to killing Locke, but wouldn't cop to killing Jacob.


I think it's because the girl (forgot her name) was tasked with protecting Jacob and all of her friends were also killed at the same time, so if he admitted to killing Jacob, she might infer that he killed her friends as well


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

It was nice to see Hurley and Rose and Helen. 

"what kind of animal would you be?" I always hated when they asked that in interviews.

Were there any names on the ceiling that we would recognize other then those listed? Was Kate up there but crossed off? or Desmond? or Whidmore? Just wondering - it seemed like a lot of other names and numbers.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Funny to hear not-Locke taking on Jack's mantra that the island is nothing special and it will get along fine without anyone... that it's just an island.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Also liked the tossing of the white rock...it's an inside joke.


One could almost say it's a throwaway gag.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> What a great episode!
> 
> Ok, it's only 18 minutes in, but I wanted to start the thread out cheerfully.


It would be impossible to start the thread negatively.
Awesome episode! 


Paperboy2003 said:


> Who was the little kid? Little Jacob?? And why did he have blood on his arms / hands when we first saw him?


Thought it was little Jacob too. Who else would know the rules.


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Shepard is 23. Interesting choice. Psalms 23 is "The Lord is my Shepard..."

Coincidence?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Cindy1230 said:


> Thought it was little Jacob too. Who else would know the rules.


I also thought it was Jacob. But he found it interesting that Sawyer could see him too.

And it seems they are following the episode line from season one....first a Kate back story, then a Locke walkabout and next maybe Jack dealing with his father.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

I'm pretty still hung up about the last episode and the date on Claire's sonogram being October.

And in this episode, Locke and Helen's wedding is going to be in October.

I know this is nit-picky... but if the plane did land in Sept, did they mean their wedding was the next month,... And Randy said to Locke.. aren't you going to take the time off for your wedding in October.. he made it sound like it was far away. 

Or the plane did land in October and their wedding was the following year.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

whitson77 said:


> Shepard is 23. Interesting choice. Psalms 23 is "The Lord is my Shepard..."
> 
> Coincidence?


Not on this show!! Any other number/name connections?


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> Well we didn't see the full suite of numbers, so I'd say it's not fully answered yet, but I like where they're going with this..
> 
> Diane


True but it IS interesting to note that the did show all six of "the" numbers, and Kate wasn't one of them. I find it very odd that he went out of his way to specifically point out EVERY remaining member of 815 EXCEPT for Kate. Miles is also still alive but who knows if he counts. And I guess Rose and Bernard too. But Kate is the most suspicious because we know for a fact that Jacob visited her.

I looked but did anyone happen to catch if any dead characters were up there but crossed out, like Boone, Charlie, Michael, Shannon, Eko, Libby, Ana Lucia, etc. It would be kind of convenient if the ONLY names up there happen to be the people who are still alive (although Locke is now crossed off).

I like the fact that after six seasons we still have no idea who the good guys and bad guys are. I have a feeling they'll keep it ambiguous until the very end, and possibly forever. I kind of hope they clarify it. I really don't feel like "interpreting" the ending of this show (although I'm already prepared for the fact that I likely will have to).

Anyone else think Jack and Sawyer as the new Jacob and Non-Locke is too obvious, and they might take it another direction? It's just about 90% sure that that's where it's headed, but would be cool if they went somewhere completely different, like "ending" the island once and for all.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

betts4 said:


> It was nice to see Hurley and Rose and Helen.
> 
> "what kind of animal would you be?" I always hated when they asked that in interviews.
> 
> Were there any names on the ceiling that we would recognize other then those listed? Was Kate up there but crossed off? or Desmond? or Whidmore? Just wondering - it seemed like a lot of other names and numbers.


Faraday (7 or 27 or something with a 7)


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

I love that Flocke is the substitute for smokey (and he can no longer change, according to Ilana) and Locke is a substitute teacher.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

betts4 said:


> And it seems they are following the episode line from season one....first a Kate back story, then a Locke walkabout and next maybe Jack dealing with his father.


And using this logic.. makes me think Sun was 42-Kwon.
Since she had a flashback episode before Jin. 
But then Kate already had the flashsideways episode and we didn't see her name among the 6 numbers... humph, nevermind.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Cindy1230 said:


> I love that Flocke is the substitute for smokey (and he can no longer change, according to Ilana) and Locke is a substitute teacher.


And not only a substitute but also a Gym teacher! Watching the kids run while he can't.

I loved Helen saying "it is destiny!"


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

The woman asking Locke the questions at the temp agency...
I knew she looked familiar, especially since they did such a long close up of her.. 
She's Hurley's tarot card reader in the original timeline (S3, ep 10).
Thanks Lostpedia!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

The little boy is God.

Or at least the higher power that set up game for Jacob and his opponent to play. The boy told notLocke, You can't kill _him_, with him seeming to mean Jacob.

Jacob's not dead. Ilana will throw his ashes in temple pool or something.


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

A couple Locke-related things:
1. Helen mentioned inviting John's father to a smaller wedding. I didn't detect any sarcasm -- perhaps John knows his father and gets along with him in this reality?
2. If John does get along with his father, then why is he in a wheelchair in this reality? Is it his destiny to be crippled no matter the reality?

More "rules" -- FakeLocke _wasn't supposed_ to kill Jacob. Widmore _wasn't supposed_ to kill Alex. Ben said "He changed the rules!" after Alex was shot. There are rules and there are candidates. The game is starting to emerge.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Jacob's not dead. Ilana will throw his ashes in temple pool or something.


I bet he's dead.

Doesn't mean he won't get better, though...


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## JadeWolf07 (Jan 1, 2004)

mrdazzo7 said:


> True but it IS interesting to note that the did show all six of "the" numbers, and Kate wasn't one of them. I find it very odd that he went out of his way to specifically point out EVERY remaining member of 815 EXCEPT for Kate. Miles is also still alive but who knows if he counts. And I guess Rose and Bernard too. But Kate is the most suspicious because we know for a fact that Jacob visited her.
> 
> I looked but did anyone happen to catch if any dead characters were up there but crossed out, like Boone, Charlie, Michael, Shannon, Eko, Libby, Ana Lucia, etc. It would be kind of convenient if the ONLY names up there happen to be the people who are still alive (although Locke is now crossed off).
> 
> ...


Goodspeed (as in Horace & Ethan) was crossed out on the ceiling.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> 42-Kwan
> 8- Reyes
> 15-Ford
> 16-Jarrah
> ...


I am picturing them all wearing basketball jerseys with their numbers! Maybe this is building to a basketball game of the Losties vs the Globetrotters. The Globetrotters once played an away game on Gilligan's Island!


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

jking said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> We didn't see her name associated with one of THE numbers, but that doesn't mean her name wasn't on the wall somewhere.


I'm thinking that Kate is number 108. If the "replacement" MiB is Sawyer and the "replacement" Jacob is Jack, Kate had a relationship with both....She is the link between the two


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

whitson77 said:


> Shepard is 23. Interesting choice. Psalms 23 is "The Lord is my Shepard..."
> 
> Coincidence?


Thought this was interesting and coincidental. 


> Not only did we get a really cool shot from the perspective of the Monster (the cameramen call this the Evil Dead shot, as shown in the commentary for "The 23rd Psalm"). Link


Either way, I forgot there was an episode called 23rd Psalm (S2, Ep10). It was an Eko episode.


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## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

I love the lucky Hugo. And the unlucky one is coming into his own as well...


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Ilana scooped up Jacob's ashes. Could they end up being the same ashes that form the barrier Smokey can't cross? It might start all over, and Jacob's ashes form the barrier for the next smokey, ad infinitum.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

23 Was Michael Jordan's number.

There's probably something there.


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## eMarkM (Apr 28, 2003)

Wow, a lot to digest on this one. 

We can say now the numbers have been explained sufficiently and we have another Answer. Why Jacob used numbers, and these in particular, might not be explained, but we at least have the answer that they correspond to the "candidates". The theories of replacement Jacob/MiB look to be spot on. 

I think the real three choices Sawyer has are, "see how it plays out", become New Jacob or become new MiB. I think Flocke is feeding Sawyer the line that they can both go home to trick Sawyer into somehow taking Smokey's place as the New Nemesis or whatever his job entails as anti-Jacob so that Smokey can "go home" and leave Sawyer exiled in the role. 

I think Jack will be the one to accept the eventual role as New Jacob.

I'm sure we'll soon have shots of the ceiling and the crossed off names. I'm betting there's not just people from 815, but going back to the Black Rock. The search for a candidate has been going on for a long time.

Ben's eulogy was absolutely priceless!!


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

Wow, another great episode! I'm loving this season (not really surprised) so far. So much to digest and connect with things we've learned from previous episodes. Must rewatch!


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

astrohip said:


> Ilana scooped up Jacob's ashes. Could they end up being the same ashes that form the barrier Smokey can't cross? It might start all over, and Jacob's ashes form the barrier for the next smokey, ad infinitum.


Exactly what I thought.



> A couple Locke-related things:
> 1. Helen mentioned inviting John's father to a smaller wedding. I didn't detect any sarcasm -- perhaps John knows his father and gets along with him in this reality?
> 2. If John does get along with his father, then why is he in a wheelchair in this reality? Is it his destiny to be crippled no matter the reality?


That's what I'm thinking... Destiny. Hurley's win, Rose's cancer, Kate being a fugitive, Locke ending up in a wheelchair. The whole thing screams "course correction" in a way. They may have created a new time-line where the plane doesn't crash, but that doesn't mean key events in their lives won't still happen. I think the end game for this side story is to prove that no matter what you do, certain things will happen. Look at the fact that the plane landed, and even without the bonding event of the crash, they're still intertwining with each other. I keep thinking they will all end up on the island anyway but then I remember it's under water.

I also have to keep remembering that one storyline is in 2004 and one in 2007, so it's not COMPLETELY parallel. I keep waiting for something to happen to a character and then their other half reacts to it, but they're still 3 years apart. I wonder if the side story will flash-forward at some point to 2007? HAHAHAH I love this show. I remember the old days when they started doing 'flash forwards' and everyone joked "What's next, flash SIDEWAYS?!?!".... I don't think we thought it would actually happen.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

If there is any meaning to the numbers, I'd think it would be that the lower the number means the more likely the candidate. Locke was the lowest number that we saw, and of the group, he was the one who most believed in the island. I'd love to know who was 1, 2 and 3 on the list.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

jking said:


> If there is any meaning to the numbers, I'd think it would be that the lower the number means the more likely the candidate. Locke was the lowest number that we saw, and of the group, he was the one who most believed in the island. I'd love to know who was 1, 2 and 3 on the list.


I actually thought maybe that it would go in order of when he visited them. There is a huge disparity between when he visits them (Kate and Sawyer as kids, Jack as a young adult, Locke a grown adult, Sayid and Sawyer after they return from the island). Of course this is assuming that he ONLY visited them on those occasions, which is unlikely after Locke's speech to Sawyer. Seems like Jacob was in and out of all their lives.

This would also clarify one thing that's buggnig me, which is the fact that he visited Sayid and Hurley after the crash, so from the looks of it, he could not have influenced them to be on the plane so it makes their presense pointless. This is why it would make more sense if he had visited them each many times instead of just the ones we've seen.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I also have to keep remembering that one storyline is in 2004 and one in 2007, so it's not COMPLETELY parallel.


 I had to stop and do that too. So now I want a flashforward during the 2004 timeline to see where they are now.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

I remember one of the names on the wall was O'Toole. Have we seen or heard about anyone on Lost named O'Toole?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

It seemed like there were a lot of names on the ceiling. Jacob has been looking a long time.


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

When will the "_they didn't explain the whole story and gave us more questions than answers, whine whine_" people appear? 

Favorite part, Smoke Flying around the Island to the tune of Iggy Pop's Search and Destroy - only on Lost could they work it in - in context.
*
I'm a street walking cheetah with a heart full of napalm
I'm a runaway son of the nuclear a-bomb
I am a world's forgotten boy
The one who searches and destroys*


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Johnny Dancing said:


> When will the "_they didn't explain the whole story and gave us more questions than answers, whine whine_" people appear?
> [/I][/B]


Probably won't, since this episode had some answers and now it feels like we're getting somewhere... the show was just spinning its wheels last week.. which is fine, but some people don't like that...


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Also, I thought the coolest thing about this episode was that we saw concern/a puzzled look on FakeLocke's face for the first time ever when he saw the boy. Also interesting that he didn't know that Sawyer would be able to see him.

Thinking back, I can't remember if anyone other than those who have been touched were the only ones who saw apparitions (kate's black horse, walt, etc.) but Claire did see Christian.

I think that all the names on the wall are male - that is why Kate, Claire and Sun aren't on there (Jin is..) also interesting that everyone except Kate are the ones who were on the wall are all the ones who were all far away from the hatch implosion.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/70a3be7c3fc72fed13b15301cf1a59cf
Isn't Claire "Littleton?"


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Bryanmc said:


> 23 Was Michael Jordan's number.
> 
> There's probably something there.


and there are 23 flavors in Dr Pepper. I think you're onto something. If Jack drinks a DP, he'll turn into Michael Jordan!


Johnny Dancing said:


> Favorite part, Smoke Flying around the Island to the tune of Iggy Pop's Search and Destroy - only on Lost could they work it in - in context.
> *
> I'm a street walking cheetah with a heart full of napalm
> I'm a runaway son of the nuclear a-bomb
> ...


It wasn't really flying around to that tune. It was searching the Island and happened into New Otherton, where it heard Sawyer playing that music from inside his house. If you noticed, as soon as it left New Otherton, the music stopped, although it continued flying around.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

A few other names I could pick out...

Mattingley - Army guy from 1954
Sullivan - The guy with the rash that Jack treated in S1
Jones - The name on Widmore's stolen Army uniform in 1954.


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## fliptheflop (Sep 20, 2005)

hefe said:


> http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/70a3be7c3fc72fed13b15301cf1a59cf
> Isn't Claire "Littleton?"


If they are all guys it could be Aaron.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

fliptheflop said:


> If they are all guys it could be Aaron.


Yeah, that's true...


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

If it was guys only on the wall wouldn't Flocke have known that? But then, maybe he's lying again, I guess...

The cave was awesome... names interestingly absent in addition to Austin:

-Linus
-Hawking
-Widmore
-Lapidus

Is Frank Lapidus really a "candidate"? What made Illana and Brahm think he was?


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

markz said:


> I am picturing them all wearing basketball jerseys with their numbers! Maybe this is building to a basketball game of the Losties vs the Globetrotters. The Globetrotters once played an away game on Gilligan's Island!


I am envisioning something more like the football game in M*A*S*H. With the payoff for the whole series being that it's all been John Shuck's suicidal drug-induced dream. Multiplexed to maybe Bobby coming out of the shower asking "Who are you? I'm Mark Harris." It all ties together with Atlantis and the Cold War.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I bet he's dead.
> 
> Doesn't mean he won't get better, though...


He's only MOSTLY dead.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Candidates

Names on the ceiling. Not a spoiler, just big.


Spoiler


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So in the new reality, how was Locke injured? Helen is still with him, and says that they should elope with Locke's dad being there.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> So in the new reality, how was Locke injured? Helen is still with him, and says that they should elope with Locke's dad being there.


and how did he meet Helen?


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

Wasn't (little) Ben on the Island when the nuke went off? Is this an alternate timeline that diverges even earlier?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Candidates
> 
> Names on the ceiling. Not a spoiler, just big.
> 
> ...


Thank you!

Can we define Others and other Others and maybe the new Others? Are there new nicknames for each group that I am not getting? It seems everyone is called Others now.

I mean, originally we had the Losties, that was the guys from the 815 plane that crashed - locke, shepard, sawyer, kate, hurley, etc,
Then there were the Others. Those were ben and juliet and goodspeed and such that lived in dharmaville.
then there were the Other Others...the ones that lived in the jungle and looked raggedly and we see in season one, jin watching the feet of them with the little teddy bear dragging....
Are these the same Others that kidnap Walt and live in huts on the edge of the water.....or were those dharmaville others.....
Then, is richard counted as a dharmaville Other since he works with them or a temple other or a jungle other? 
now there are the temple Others - the asian guy, the lennon looking guy and ....is richard counted as one of them?
And there is also the Others from the new plane crash with Sun and pilot guy and dead Locke....we didn't know they were Temple Others till they crashed. But how did they know the plane would crash where it did - the island. 
The Tailies were never Others.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Rosincrans said:


> Wasn't (little) Ben on the Island when the nuke went off? Is this an alternate timeline that diverges even earlier?


We know that there was a submarine that took some Dharma folk off the island prior to the incident (we can assume that Ethan made it off). Was Ben returned to the Dharma folk in time to make the departure?

Did we ever figure out how Ethan came to join the others in the original timeline? He was born to members of the Dharma initiative. He seems to have been doing double duty with the Others and the Dharma initiative along with Ben in '89.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rosincrans said:


> Wasn't (little) Ben on the Island when the nuke went off? Is this an alternate timeline that diverges even earlier?


Best catch so far. Unless we find out that the temple people took him off of the island around the time that they healed him (or while it was sinking, if it didn't just jump directly to the ocean floor), this is the best evidence yet that the split is sometime before the bomb.

I seriously think the bomb is a red herring.

I want to see one change that has a long string of consequences, leading to Horace not being off the island on the day that Ben was born (or at least not driving by).

Ben never goes to island, dharmaville still exists, maybe Dharma folks aren't murdered, they do something that sinks the island?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

When Sawyer fell down the cliff, I was half expecting NotLocke to turn into Smokey and reach out and grab him.


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

My favorite line of the show was when Flocke confronted the little boy and was told that he wasn't allowed to kill Jacob.

He replies: "You can't tell me what I can't do!". Sound familiar to anyone?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

ronsch said:


> My favorite line of the show was when Flocke confronted the little boy and was told that he wasn't allowed to kill Jacob.
> 
> He replies: "You can't tell me what I can't do!". Sound familiar to anyone?


Yes, I picked up on that too.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Best catch so far. Unless we find out that the temple people took him off of the island around the time that they healed him (or while it was sinking, if it didn't just jump directly to the ocean floor), this is the best evidence yet that the split is sometime before the bomb.
> 
> I seriously think the bomb is a red herring.
> 
> ...


It's not a red herring at all. If the bomb doesn't go off, Sayid never goes to the past, never shoots Ben, everything's different. The effects of the bomb going off, and the plane never crashing, go back long before the moment the bomb went off. I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of the Losties' actions in the past indirectly led to Ben going to the island in the first place. Occam's Razor suggests that the bomb itself is the event you're looking for.

(Did you see how I did that? Implied that Occam's Razor applies to Lost? )


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Who was the little kid? Little Jacob?? And why did he have blood on his arms / hands when we first saw him?


Initially I thought it was Aaron since we saw Claire at the end of the last episode but that wouldn't make sense. He wouldn't be that old/big yet either unless he had Walt's disease. I'm going with young Jacob.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's not a red herring at all. If the bomb doesn't go off, Sayid never goes to the past, never shoots Ben, everything's different. The effects of the bomb going off, and the plane never crashing, go back long before the moment the bomb went off. I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of the Losties' actions in the past indirectly led to Ben going to the island in the first place. Occam's Razor suggests that the bomb itself is the event you're looking for.
> 
> (Did you see how I did that? Implied that Occam's Razor applies to Lost? )


But the bomb wouldn't have gone off if it weren't for Sayid et al going back to the past. Occam's Razor still works though.

I wonder how Richard made it off the island to see John as a kid.


----------



## buckeyenut (Apr 1, 2004)

My mind is still trying to get wrapped around this season.


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

Sayid must be really still be alive since his name was not scratched off the board, I mean wall, yet Claire was scratched off the wall and we saw her alive - unless Aaron is dead... or being off the Island or born on the Island means they are out of the the game.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But it does take us one tiny step closer to my theory that the show ends with Jack and Sawyer as the new Jacob and not-Locke.


Wasn't Jack supposed to be killed off early in the first season though? Would that mean the ending wasn't decided on until after they decided to keep Jack around?


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

hefe said:


> A few other names I could pick out...
> 
> Mattingley - Army guy from 1954
> Sullivan - The guy with the rash that Jack treated in S1
> Jones - The name on Widmore's stolen Army uniform in 1954.


I saw Troup (as in Gary, the author of the Bad Twin). Hurley found his manuscript I think.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

goblue97 said:


> Wasn't Jack supposed to be killed off early in the first season though? Would that mean the ending wasn't decided on until after they decided to keep Jack around?


Jack was going to die at the end of the pilot episode (Seth Norris the Oceanic pilot was killed instead); but that was early on when Jack was going to be played by Michael Keaton and Kate was supposed to be the 'hero' of the show.

I believe they decided to keep Jack around before they filmed anything.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Quick post - I don't think when the kid said "you can't kill him" that he meant Jacob (I think the kid might actually be Jacob, or Aaron). I think he meant Ford/Sawyer.

The rules must say you can't directly kill someone "touched" by the other side.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

goblue97 said:


> Wasn't Jack supposed to be killed off early in the first season though? Would that mean the ending wasn't decided on until after they decided to keep Jack around?


When they first came up with the concept, they thought of that. He was going to be killed at the end of the pilot. I'm not sure at what point they knew the ending, just that it was relatively early. And I'm not sure what they mean by "the ending"...is it Sawyer telling Jack "Do you know how much I want to kill you" on the beach of the new island? Or is it two guys on a beach getting ready to start a new cycle? (Not that I know or even firmly believe that's the ending, just an example.)


----------



## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

ronsch said:


> My favorite line of the show was when Flocke confronted the little boy and was told that he wasn't allowed to kill Jacob.


Was it that blatant they were referring to Jacob? I thought there was some ambiguity, as the boy might have been referring to Sawyer.

It looked to me like he was pointing with his eyes to Sawyer when you say "You know you can't kill him".


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I think an interesting twist would be that Jacob is the bad guy. When choosing between the one who disrupts people's lives and brings them to an island that they can't leave and where bad things happen, and one who lets people off the island be, who is the bad guy?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

mmilton80 said:


> I wonder how Richard made it off the island to see John as a kid.


Did Jacob see all of them and only Richard saw John? Well, wait, Richard saw Juliet too. And poor Richard getting punched in the throat by the Not Locke.

I was sad to see Locke actually buried.

I loved in the sideways flash that Locke couldn't get his wheelchair lift all the way down and he tried to jump off of it - it would have been great if he made it. The house that he and Helen shared seemed very suburban and normal. Better than the one room hole he was in in the first season flashback. Things were changed. What was bad for the Losties is now at least for some of them, a better world.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I think an interesting twist would be that Jacob is the bad guy. When choosing between the one who disrupts people's lives and brings them to an island that they can't leave and where bad things happen, and one who lets people off the island be, who is the bad guy?


Even more interesting would be if there were no good guy and bad guy, just two different philosophies. At least, it was an interesting concept when Babylon 5 did it, and if Lost does it, they'll probably pull it off a lot better.


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

betts4 said:


> Did Jacob see all of them and only Richard saw John?


Richard saw Juliet but that was after they took over the Dharma barracks and more importantly the submarine. I am just trying to figure out if there is yet another way off the island.


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I'm still wondering who Adam and Eve are??!!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> Great! The numbers have a purpose. And that purpose is ...?


:up:

I was really, really attached to those damned numbers the first few seasons. I really want to have some closure there and can't wait to see wh...



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I have a hunch not-Locke's explanation for the numbers ("Jacob had a thing for numbers") was both an ironic commentary on, well, us, and the only explanation we're going to get.


NOOOOOOOOoooooooo!!!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Wonder what would've happened if Sawyer actually shot Locke.


Didn't we see that a few weeks ago? It would go right through him (or bounce off, can't remember which).


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Quick post - I don't think when the kid said "you can't kill him" that he meant Jacob (I think the kid might actually be Jacob, or Aaron). I think he meant Ford/Sawyer.
> 
> The rules must say you can't directly kill someone "touched" by the other side.


I certainly thought the kid meant "You can't kill Sawyer".

But I'm the type that would think that since Sawyer was with him and it was the closest leap to make.


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> Didn't we see that a few weeks ago? It would go right through him (or bounce off, can't remember which).


Huh?? Did we?? Did I miss an episode or something? Please refresh my memory, as I don't remember anything like that


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I think it's not Sun or Jin, but their kid.

I think Claire's kid isn't done here either. I see both kids playing a big role.

I think Locke now fully believes his wife-to-be does love him for who he is now, and thus he will call Jack and get surgery and walk again.


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## mchasal (Jun 6, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Didn't we see that a few weeks ago? It would go right through him (or bounce off, can't remember which).


Yeah, we did. My impression of that was that the bullet hit Flocke as it would normally hit a person. It's just that when he turned into Smokey, it "fell out". I wonder if a "head shot" or something instantly fatal to a human might actually have an affect on Smokey when in Flocke mode? How human is his human form? When he said "let's find out" did that mean, "you'll find out" or really "let's find out"?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Huh?? Did we?? Did I miss an episode or something? Please refresh my memory, as I don't remember anything like that


When the people carrying Locke's body in the coffin entered Jacob's crib at the foot of the statue, they took a shot at Locke. They later found the bullet and wondered what happened.

I think.


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> When the people carrying Locke's body in the coffin entered Jacob's crib at the foot of the statue, they took a shot at Locke. They later found the bullet and wondered what happened.
> 
> I think.


Ahh...ok....THAT was what they picked up off the floor....I thought people in that thread referred to it as some kind of bug or something and that didn't make ANY sense to me. Thanks!


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Cindy1230 said:


> I love that Flocke is the substitute for smokey (and he can no longer change, according to Ilana) and Locke is a substitute teacher.


Also, he was the substitute for Jack's dad on the Ajira flight.



Cindy1230 said:


> And using this logic.. makes me think Sun was 42-Kwon.
> Since she had a flashback episode before Jin.
> But then Kate already had the flashsideways episode and we didn't see her name among the 6 numbers... humph, nevermind.


I'm guessing it's Jin, because all of the ones we do know were fellow time travellers, whereas Sun stayed in the original timeline (at least original as far as we were shown).



Turtleboy said:


> I think an interesting twist would be that Jacob is the bad guy. When choosing between the one who disrupts people's lives and brings them to an island that they can't leave and where bad things happen, and one who lets people off the island be, who is the bad guy?


My new theory is that the island is the Garden of Eden. Be wary of the one offering knowledge and trust the one asking you to have faith.



Paperboy2003 said:


> I'm still wondering who Adam and Eve are??!!


Adam and Eve are Adam and Eve. See above.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I love the lucky Hugo. And the unlucky one is coming into his own as well...


Me too. How many people would hire their previous, "d**che"y boss?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mmilton80 said:


> But the bomb wouldn't have gone off if it weren't for Sayid et al going back to the past.


And that's the problem when time travel stories aren't "What happened, happened."

Last season I theorized that having something that didn't happen, happen would break the universe, and that the rest of the series would be repairing it. At the time, I was thinking the death of Little Ben would be the event, and of course that didn't pan out. But now I wonder if I wasn't just premature, and the bomb was the event that broke the universe...


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And that's the problem when time travel stories aren't "What happened, happened."
> 
> Last season I theorized that having something that didn't happen, happen would break the universe, and that the rest of the series would be repairing it. At the time, I was thinking the death of Little Ben would be the event, and of course that didn't pan out. But now I wonder if I wasn't just premature, and the bomb was the event that broke the universe...


Paradoxes tend to give me headaches.


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And that's the problem when time travel stories aren't "What happened, happened."
> 
> Last season I theorized that having something that didn't happen, happen would break the universe, and that the rest of the series would be repairing it. At the time, I was thinking the death of Little Ben would be the event, and of course that didn't pan out. But now I wonder if I wasn't just premature, and the bomb was the event that broke the universe...


I just went cross-eyed reading that...


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

3D said:


> I'm guessing it's Jin, because all of the ones we do know were fellow time travellers, whereas Sun stayed in the original timeline (at least original as far as we were shown).


Except Kate's name wasn't up there and she time travelled.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> I think an interesting twist would be that Jacob is the bad guy. When choosing between the one who disrupts people's lives and brings them to an island that they can't leave and where bad things happen, and one who lets people off the island be, who is the bad guy?


One thing they're taking great pains with is to keep it ambiguous. Who's the good guy, who's the bad guy? It could be one, the other, swapped, or...



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Even more interesting would be if there were no good guy and bad guy, just two different philosophies. At least, it was an interesting concept when Babylon 5 did it, and if Lost does it, they'll probably pull it off a lot better.


Right. It could be neither one is good or bad from the point of view of everyone but them. And I disagree with you Rob, I don't think Lost could pull it off much better than Babylon 5 already did. Equal, perhaps.



Paperboy2003 said:


> I'm still wondering who Adam and Eve are??!!


I'm still wondering what the names of the girls' soccer team with the numbers on their backs were in the airport during Locke's vision of Boone (when Boone pushed him in the chair). This show never explains anything!!!



Cindy1230 said:


> Me too. How many people would hire their previous, "d**che"y boss?


Mmm, Hurley would. What we've seen of Hurley over the course of the show is he's one of the few honestly good people who, despite being wronged, still treats the same people well.

Greg


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Curious that Walt's name wasn't up there. I thought he was special...


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Crap, I keep forgetting that Lost is on Tuesdays now...

Hopefully my SP caught it. Just wish I would have seen it already.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

mmilton80 said:


> Curious that Walt's name wasn't up there. I thought he was special...


I think Walt is beyond that because of his specialness. What with the Walt's Disease though, I doubt we'll see him on the show again without some sort of plot twist to make him look 40 years old. I'm also thinking that the kid we saw here was supposed to be Walt when it was originally conceived.

Greg


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

betts4 said:


> Except Kate's name wasn't up there and she time travelled.


Apples and oranges. Of the five we've been told of whose numbers correspond to "THE NUMBERS", all five were time travelers. I therefore speculate that, when choosing between two possibilities for who would represent the last of the six numbers, the one who was also a time traveler fits the bill. Kate not being on the list even though she jumped through time is a whole other issue. Juliet, Rose, and Bernard also traveled through time. They are likewise not relevant to the Sun/Jin discussion.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gchance said:


> Right. It could be neither one is good or bad from the point of view of everyone but them. And I disagree with you Rob, I don't think Lost could pull it off much better than Babylon 5 already did. Equal, perhaps.


I thought the actual execution on B5 was pretty awful. Having Bruce Boxleitner, not the best actor in the world (cough), just make a big pompous speech about it...I very much liked the concept, but as usual JMS did a lot better job on the set-up and the Big Picture than on the details and the execution.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Thanks to whoever posted the full breakdown of names on the wall from Lostipedia--I knew it was only a matter of hours before someone analyzed every single inch of rock in that cavern. I'm not sure how I feel about all this "candidate" business but so far it's ok. I like the idea that all these seemingly random characters seen and mentioned throughout the series are on that list, in addition to some of the fallen Losties.

Do you guys really think that the show will end with Jack and Sawyer on the beach repeating the opener from last season's finale? I think it thematically makes sense, but I really can't imagine that they'd end it in such a predictable way. If Lost has been one thing over it's run, it's unpredictable, and you can see that ending from a mile away. I hope they take it somewhere else.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I'm still wondering who Adam and Eve are??!!


I still don't have a theory on who they are, but am wondering if they are either former candidates, or the two prior keepers of the island before Jacob and MiB took over?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Johnny Dancing said:


> Sayid must be really still be alive since his name was not scratched off the board, I mean wall, yet Claire was scratched off the wall and we saw her alive - unless Aaron is dead... or being off the Island or born on the Island means they are out of the the game.


Not like Jacob had a lot of time to scratch out Sayid's name since he was killed before Sayid "died".

I have to say that even though alternate-Locke was still in the wheelchair, his life wasn't all bad and he still had Helen.
Very interesting.
BTW, does this mean Helen is still fated to die?


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Do you guys really think that the show will end with Jack and Sawyer on the beach repeating the opener from last season's finale? I think it thematically makes sense, but I really can't imagine that they'd end it in such a predictable way. If Lost has been one thing over it's run, it's unpredictable, and you can see that ending from a mile away. I hope they take it somewhere else.


No, I don't think it will end that way; and as you note, I think the biggest evidence against it is that people think they see it coming already...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Two things:

1) I felt physically struck back in my seat with an "oohhhhh!!!!" almost cry-worthy happiness when I saw Helen. I'm so happy for that Locke. I disagree that he'll see Jack and get his back fixed (I'd have thought that before last night) - now I think they very effectively showed that he's come to terms with his limitations and has accepted them. He looks happy. That's the end of Locke's story (and, it would seem, of Ben's).

2) Another thing we should have figured out - the idea that Locke could be a teacher. With all of his chants of "DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO!!!", we should have realized that eventually he might get past that anger, and then we should have remembered that common phrase "Those that can't do, teach."

BTW, I absolutely loved that episode. VERY much enjoyed seeing smokey's point of view, including the reflection in the mirror.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I'll bet you a cheeseburger Locke has a consult with Jack.

Any time a show rips up a piece of paper into 4 big chunks that piece of paper gets put back together and used.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I thought the actual execution on B5 was pretty awful. Having Bruce Boxleitner, not the best actor in the world (cough), just make a big pompous speech about it...I very much liked the concept, but as usual JMS did a lot better job on the set-up and the Big Picture than on the details and the execution.


Agreed about Bruce, but I believe the explanation was mostly given by Justin Exposition. We'll see how Lost does it. 



jkeegan said:


> BTW, I absolutely loved that episode. VERY much enjoyed seeing smokey's point of view, including the reflection in the mirror.


YES! I also love how Smokeycam was very similar to The Evil Dead.

Greg


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> I'll bet you a cheeseburger Locke has a consult with Jack.


I bet you're right. These characters are 'supposed' to interact, whether there's an Island or not, and I don't believe they accomplished whatever they are 'supposed' to during their brief encounter at the airport.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> VERY much enjoyed seeing smokey's point of view, including the *reflection in the mirror*.


I missed that. Any screencaps?


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I'll bet you a cheeseburger Locke has a consult with Jack.
> 
> Any time a show rips up a piece of paper into 4 big chunks that piece of paper gets put back together and used.


Also, using the redial function, viewing itemized cell phone bill, looking Jack up in the yellow pages, etc. etc.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

astrohip said:


> I missed that. Any screencaps?


Sorry, not mirror.. window.. He was flying over Dharmaville, came up to one of the yellow houses, and you could see his reflection (as smoke) in the window. There must be screen captures somewhere.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)




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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Hotlinking not allowed, gchance.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Oh, and I forgot to mention how cool it was that Sawyer assessed within minutes (even drunk) that Locke wasn't Locke.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I think Locke will consult with Jack and Jack will fix him, and I think that's why Locke's legs worked on the island, because in the sideways reality Jack fixed him. 

ie, Locke's legs were destined to be fixed and when the plane crashed Jack obviously couldn't do the surgery on the island, so the island fixed his legs.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

The other interesting is that MIB/Fake Locke has now seemed to have glommed on to Ford.
Is this because Ford is probably the easiest to push to his side morally?

(Sayid would be the other candidate but he may be already claimed by Jacob.)


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

It has not been confirmed that all five names were time travelers: Sun did not time travel and it has not been revealed who "Kwon" is.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

That's an interesting point.. If Jacob touched these people and "pushed" them towards coming to the island (Ford's case is a great example - the pen allowed James to solidify his anger towards Sawyer and brought him to Australia to kill who he _thought_ was Sawyer, leading him to the island on the return flight), then the "original" timeline before Jacob touched/pushed anyone might be what we're seeing with the 815-lands-safely story line..


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> That's an interesting point.. If Jacob touched these people and "pushed" them towards coming to the island (Ford's case is a great example - the pen allowed James to solidify his anger towards Sawyer and brought him to Australia to kill who he _thought_ was Sawyer, leading him to the island on the return flight), then the "original" timeline before Jacob touched/pushed anyone might be what we're seeing with the 815-lands-safely story line..


Well maybe, but we found out that James still went to Austrailia anyhow, and he was still on the plane, so part of that doesn't make any sense.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Hotlinking not allowed, gchance.


Interesting, it showed on my screen.  Age-old problem I guess.

http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2010/02/episode-6x04-substitute-smokey-hq.html

Greg


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Also, I think it's interesting that with all of the temple people's worry about "WE NEED TO KEEP YOU HERE IN THE TEMPLE TO KEEP YOU SAFE FROM SMOKEY!", it's probably against the rules for smokey to hurt them directly anyway! What they REALLY want to do is keep people in the dark (ok, maybe bad choice of words.. ok, keep them ignorant) about what choice they actually have in front of them. It seems Sawyer needed to _choose_ to go with smokey.. Smokey wouldn't have even been able to approach Sawyer to make his case if Sawyer had been locked up in the temple behind a circle of ash.

He already convinced Claire, and now he convinced Sawyer/James. He's pulling them to the dark side.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> Well maybe, but we found out that James still went to Austrailia anyhow, and he was still on the plane, so part of that doesn't make any sense.


Hmm.. good point.


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Some people have theorized that something happened before the bomb event to cause the island to sink, but we saw the Dharma shark and Dharmaville under water. (We saw the statute didn't we? But did we see the remains of the statue or the full thing? In 2004 the statue had the base and feet only).

So it couldn't have been too terribly long ago that the island sank.


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

I'm basing this on nothing solid, but the MiB represents darkness (maybe) and he wears dark colors, Sayid is now infected and is wearing black. Rousseau was always dressed in black so I'm curious if that's a hint that she actually was infected. She heard whispering in the jungle which makes me think the Others knew about her but she was infected so they couldn't bring her to the temple.

Or maybe they did bring her to the temple and she failed the test and they put her in the jungle because they couldn't harm her because of the rules. That's how she knew how to test Sayid with electrocution.

And going back to them not being able to hurt Rousseau because of the rules, maybe that's why Jack had to give Sayid the poison. Jack hasn't made his choice yet while the temple others had so they couldn't harm Sayid.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

DarkUFO has been making some jokes in their banner this season, the one this morning made me chuckle; I cut out the center of the banner and just left the joke part:


----------



## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> I certainly thought the kid meant "You can't kill Sawyer"....


You guys are right -- I went back and re-watched that scene. For whatever reason, I assumed the kid was chastising FakeLocke for killing Jacob, but now I see it is more likely he was warning him that he couldn't kill Sawyer.


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

I noticed one of the numbers next to someone's name was 313. (This is probably so reaching..) but if you break that into 3 & 13 that adds up to 16! (Which is one of the Numbers).


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> I certainly thought the kid meant "You can't kill Sawyer".
> 
> But I'm the type that would think that since Sawyer was with him and it was the closest leap to make.


I saw the scene at the same point you did, and I took from it that they were referring to Jacob, I love how we can all come to different conclusions, it's one of my favorite parts of the show.

Diane


----------



## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Two things:
> 1) I felt physically struck back in my seat with an "oohhhhh!!!!" almost cry-worthy happiness when I saw Helen. I'm so happy for that Locke. I disagree that he'll see Jack and get his back fixed (I'd have thought that before last night) - now I think they very effectively showed that he's come to terms with his limitations and has accepted them. He looks happy. That's the end of Locke's story (and, it would seem, of Ben's)....


I'm not sure it's the end for Locke. If I remember correctly, Helen has a brain aneurysm in 2006, so Locke's got about 2 more years with her if her destiny holds. I could see Locke going off the deep end after Helen dies.

Can you imagine having Michael Emerson as your teacher? Scary!


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

NoThru22 said:


> It has not been confirmed that all five names were time travelers: Sun did not time travel and it has not been revealed who "Kwon" is.


Not sure if this is in response to my earlier posts, but that's precisely why I was speculating who Kwon is. I'm not saying that we know that all six are time travelers, I'm saying that the five we can positively identify were, so therefore the sixth probably is too.

At the risk of beating a dead horse: There are six numbers. Five of those are taken by people we know to be time travelers. The sixth could either be either someone who was a time traveler (Jin) or someone who wasn't (Sun). Based on the other five, my guess is that the other one is Jin because he too was a time traveler.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I also think the boy was referring to Sawyer when he said "You know the rules; you can't kill him". I think the candidates can't be killed by the players. I think they (Jacob & Flocke) must influence them to make certain choices. I suspect Flocke is going to try to manipulate the candidates into killing each other and everyone else on the Island.

But then, if candidates can't be killed by the players; what about Eko. It seemed like Smokey was trying to recruit him - or maybe not. Maybe he wasn't a candidate; we didn't see his name on the wall... I wonder if we've seen all the relevant names on the wall...


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Crazy theory, but I'm thinking maybe the candidates have a power over the island (or power when in vicinity of the island) of which they are obviously not aware. Would explain their ability to flash off planes when they are crashing and back/forward in time. Perhaps it's not the island doing it to them, but them doing it subconsciously to themselves as a survival instinct. The island has the power, but they are somehow able to control it (maybe because they are descendants of the original inhabitants?). If Flocke can get enough of them to come over to his side, he can get them to "choose" to get off the island... or maybe even to sink the thing once and for all.


----------



## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> I also think the boy was referring to Sawyer when he said "You know the rules; you can't kill him". I think the candidates can't be killed by the players. I think they (Jacob & Flocke) must influence them to make certain choices. I suspect Flocke is going to try to manipulate the candidates into killing each other and everyone else on the Island.
> 
> But then, if candidates can't be killed by the players; what about Eko. It seemed like Smokey was trying to recruit him - or maybe not. Maybe he wasn't a candidate; we didn't see his name on the wall... I wonder if we've seen all the relevant names on the wall...


I think it is a game, has specific rules ...and will continue until they get a result they had agreed upon....which is when it ends. This is obvious from the following quotes:

MiB: They come, fight, destroy, corrupt, it always ends the same.
Jacob: It only ends once, anything before that is just progress.

And the most recent:
FLock: (After tossing the rock off the scale) It's an inside joke
Boy Jacob(?): You know the rules; you can't kill him

I think that they have to have certain things happen for the game to end...it is like Chess....you have to get Check-Mate..and everytime they get new chess pieces to play with, they fight, destroy corrupt and kill each other and no one wins. Sort of like getting Stale Mates in Chess over and over.

Jacob says it only ends once...that is when instead of a Stale Mate, either MiB or Jacob wins. Every time it ties, it is progress because each of the two players (MiB and Jacob) learn something more about their opponent, and more about how to manipulate and control the Chess pieces in the game.


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

OK, just got done reading 5 pages to make sure somebody hadn't already posted this.

FakeLocke takes Sawyer into a dark cave in the side of a cliff and tells him that Jacob wrote all these names and numbers there.

Isn't it more likely that FakeLocke/MIB is the guy who wrote the names/numbers, and it is some kind of a "hit list?" I mean we already saw where Jacob "lived,'' and I always assumed that MIB lived somewhere dark and hidden. The cave with all the names fits that bill perfectly. 

I think FakeLocke/MIB lived in that cave, not Jacob.


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## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> I think an interesting twist would be that Jacob is the bad guy. When choosing between the one who disrupts people's lives and brings them to an island that they can't leave and where bad things happen, and one who lets people off the island be, who is the bad guy?


I also am stating to think that Jacob is the bad guy. And doesn't this work better with the Sayid storyline? If we believe the Temple Others that Sayid is infected with a bad sickness (a big if, I know) and if, as some people have speculated, it's because he was reincarnated as Jacob, wouldn't that make Jacob and Sayid both bad?

On the list of candidates: I also found Kate's absense very startling, especially since they made such a huge point about linking the candidate names to the people Jacob visited. They emphasized that _so much _with the flashbacks to Jacob touching everyone -- flashbacks that were extremely un-Lost-y, I thought, because normally they let people make the connections themselves instead of shoving them at you, and this time NotLocke not only explained the connection (which honestly I thought was pretty obvious) but they ALSO included the unncessary visuals along with the explanation. Just seemed really over the top to me and I am left wondering why. Is it an explanation that's a misdirection somehow?

Glad to see the numbers referenced again. That seems like one of the biggest issues that hasn't been tied into the last couple seasons at all. I hope we learn more about how they fit in.

I also enjoyed seeing real-Locke happy. Can someone remind me what happened to Helen before?

Ben as a history teacher with his coffeepot rant was hilarious.

The Jack-and-Sawyer-on-the-beach as new Jacob and new not-Jacob ending does have a surface appeal to it and seem to fit a lot of what we are learning now. But, it's also easy to telegraph from a mile away. And I've never once seen a Lost season finale that was in any way what I've predicted, or even imagined. So I'm thinking that's not it.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> But then, if candidates can't be killed by the players; what about Eko. It seemed like Smokey was trying to recruit him - or maybe not. Maybe he wasn't a candidate; we didn't see his name on the wall... I wonder if we've seen all the relevant names on the wall...


Remember back to the episode with the Tallies. Didn't the Others think that Mr. Eko was a candidate, until he killed two of the Others? So, you could be onto something...


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

T-Wolves said:


> OK, just got done reading 5 pages to make sure somebody hadn't already posted this.
> 
> FakeLocke takes Sawyer into a dark cave in the side of a cliff and tells him that Jacob wrote all these names and numbers there.
> 
> ...


I didn't take it as a place that either of them lived. Looked like more of a clubhouse to me.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Oh, another thing I just thought of...

Iliana (sp?) last night said that FakeLocke is now stuck in his current form. So, does this mean we won't see Christian again?

I think some people thought that Smokey might be appearing as both Claire and Christian at the end of Season 4. I think we can say that isn't the case now.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

T-Wolves said:


> OK, just got done reading 5 pages to make sure somebody hadn't already posted this.
> 
> FakeLocke takes Sawyer into a dark cave in the side of a cliff and tells him that Jacob wrote all these names and numbers there.
> 
> ...


I think that explanation doesn't work for the following reason: the black and white rocks on the scale. This is the first time FLocke/MiB visits the cave since Jacob's death. The first thing he does is grab the white rock and throw it into the ocean. If this were merely the MiB lair and Jacob had never been there, I don't think there would have been a white rock on the scale and MiB wouldn't have felt the need to get rid of it so quickly.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

T-Wolves said:


> OK, just got done reading 5 pages to make sure somebody hadn't already posted this.
> 
> FakeLocke takes Sawyer into a dark cave in the side of a cliff and tells him that Jacob wrote all these names and numbers there.
> 
> ...


Completely viable. But I feel like he's had infinite opportunites to waste everyone on there, but hasn't, so I'm not sure about the theory that it's a hitlist. I would say maybe he didn't kill Sawyer right then was because he wants to use him to draw the others out, but that wouldn't explain why he hadn't killed them during the first 100 days on the island (where it made many appearances, including to Locke). If it was hitlist, it could have killed them all.

We know that he chose Locke as his Loophole (probably on that same day when they came face to face), but hasn't killed anyone else. Plus it would be coincidental that his hit list includes all the people Jacob "touched". And he has't been able to leave the island in who knows how long so where would he even get the names? I do think you're onto something about it not being jacob's lair, so we'll see.

One other thing I didn't notice was regarding the numbers. Jacob coincidentally assigned those specific numbers to the main castaways, which is fine, but it's odd that that specific series of numbers also ended up being the serial number for the hatch, which was built by Dharma, an entitiy seemingly disconnected from Jacob

Coincidence, or fate? HAHAHA.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

T-Wolves said:


> OK, just got done reading 5 pages to make sure somebody hadn't already posted this.
> 
> FakeLocke takes Sawyer into a dark cave in the side of a cliff and tells him that Jacob wrote all these names and numbers there.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's FakeLocke/MIB's cave. He is the smoke monster so he would just fly into the cave and wouldn't need the ladders to climb down. Jacob on the other hand would need to be able to climb down to the cave, hence the ladders.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I'm just curious how Flocke and Sawyer are going to get out of those caves now that the ladders are broken!!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

unixadm said:


> I think it is a game, has specific rules ...and will continue until they get a result they had agreed upon....which is when it ends. This is *obvious* from the following quotes:


I don't find anything obvious about this show.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I'm just curious how Flocke and Sawyer are going to get out of those caves now that the ladders are broken!!


Go go Smokey time.

Sawyer, not so much.


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## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

Flocke's speech to Sawyer about maybe it's just an island reminded me of a speech that Jack once gave. Can't remember the details, but I think he said it to Locke one time when they were arguing about leaving the island.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

One thing that's never been answered, and we haven't wondered about too much, is: how does Dharma fit into all this? How did Dharma discover the Island? How could they go back and forth so easily, when Widmore and Farraday's mom have so much problem in locating the Island?


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

"Hit list" was a bad choice of words -- more a list (of the players) for his own purposes. For me it comes down to deciding if you can picture Jacob heading into a dark cave to scrawl names on the walls. Given what we've seen so far, it seems more like a MIB-type activity to me.

You are right about the scale with the light and black rocks -- that probably isn't something MIB would choose to keep around. Maybe "clubhouse" makes more sense?

Not sure why the ladders would be there at all. Since MIB can travel around as Smokey, one would think that Jacob might have a similar mode of transportion. I'm guessing he didn't fly coach or take the submarine on his trips off the Island.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> One thing that's never been answered, and we haven't wondered about too much, is: how does Dharma fit into all this? How did Dharma discover the Island? How could they go back and forth so easily, when Widmore and Farraday's mom have so much problem in locating the Island?


Fine point.

For a while there it seemed like a simple little boat ride. Back when Richard was recruiting Juliette.


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## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

Okay... time for some bold predictions .. I think the Jack/Sawyer replacing Jacob/MiB is too obvious ... I believe (if any sort of replacement thing happens) .. that it will be Hurley and Sawyer.

Why? Both have had a scene where someone has said "You can see him?" .. Sawyer just recently saw what was most likely a form of Jacob .. and Hurley saw *someone* in the cabin that Ben couldn't .. Someone would have go back and check, but I'd guess at that point the ash had been disturbed and it could have been MiB in the cabin ..otherwise it was a Jacob who didn't want to be too friendly to Hurley for some reason. I think their ability to see "people" of that realm is what is choosing them.

As for Adam and Eve that someone asked about earlier in the thread .. I'll spoiler tag this one 'cuz I think its even more likely than the above thing.. and I'd hate to ruin someone's thinking with my idea if they didn't want it ruined...



Spoiler



Bernard and Rose



I also think that Adam and Eve will turn out to be a lot more important to this story than it has originally seemed ...


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Philosofy said:


> One thing that's never been answered, and we haven't wondered about too much, is: how does Dharma fit into all this? How did Dharma discover the Island? How could they go back and forth so easily, when Widmore and Farraday's mom have so much problem in locating the Island?


This is the only hesitation I've had in loving this season. This whole angle of Jacob vs. MIB as the entire point of Lost seems a bit scary for everything we've invested into Widmore and Dharma and The Others, etc.... I have faith I won't be disappointed, but something feels a bit off for me right now.


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## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

Did Faraday's mother (in 2007 LA) last season have blackened eyes? 

Smokey influenced Ben, so it seemed that Faraday's mother was working for MiB's interests (needing a body on the plane).


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

jradford said:


> This is the only hesitation I've had in loving this season. This whole angle of Jacob vs. MIB as the entire point of Lost seems a bit scary for everything we've invested into Widmore and Dharma and The Others, etc.... I have faith I won't be disappointed, but something feels a bit off for me right now.


Jacob has a history of bringing people to the Island... perhaps he is the master string puller for the Dharma Initiative just like Oceanic 815.

Maybe we'll get an episode where we see him touching DeGroot, Hanso, Widmore, etc.

I'm also more and more being convinced that Jacob could be the bad (or not good) guy in all of this. Maybe that's just wishful thinking since I think Pellegrino can play a pretty good bad-ass and I think that would be cool to see..


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jradford said:


> This is the only hesitation I've had in loving this season. This whole angle of Jacob vs. MIB as the entire point of Lost seems a bit scary for everything we've invested into Widmore and Dharma and The Others, etc.... I have faith I won't be disappointed, but something feels a bit off for me right now.


Honestly, I'm tiring of Jacob vs. MIB.

I like the Widmore and Dharma storyline more. The staged plane at the bottom of the ocean, the Dharma movies, the hatch. I liked that more than two men sitting on an island locked in some mental dual with weird rules that takes centuries to play out.


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## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Honestly, I'm tiring of Jacob vs. MIB.
> 
> I like the Widmore and Dharma storyline more. The staged plane at the bottom of the ocean, the Dharma movies, the hatch. I liked that more than two men sitting on an island locked in some mental dual with weird rules that takes centuries to play out.


I liked Dharma the best too. The weird commune, the unusual scientific experiments, the fertility problems and weird properties of the island, the numbers, the hatches, the glowy map to all the stations. I want more of that!!


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

It could be possible that "the Others" vs Dharma was just Jacob vs FakeLocke all along... why would FakeLocke show up as Ben's mother and try to get him to switch sides..

However, Richard was with the Others, and he's clearly been against FakeLocke the whole time... or maybe he was tricked.. 

I still don't see how they are going to wrap all of this up in the limited time left...


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I'm also a little concerned that much of seasons 2-5 seems to be getting tossed aside. I will be very disappointed if large chunks of the story go unexplained and unresolved.

For example, Ben, in season 4 especially, seemed to know there was a game at work and knew of the 'rules'; but he seems clueless since he got back to the Island. What game was he playing?


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

My theory on the game being played by MIB and Jacob:

1) Whoever is touched by Jacob cannot die at the hands of the island, which would include the natural elements of the island as well as the smoke monster. When the smoke monster is looking into people, he is often times doing so to determine if they are fair game or if they've been touched/chosen. 

2) We are not aware of everyone who has been touched. I suspect that both Ben and his daughter Alex were previously touched. When Ben said "he broke the rules" in response to Alex's death, I propose that it was because he misunderstood the rule. As he's not had much experience with off the island threats, he simply assumed that nobody who was touched by Jacob could die when, in fact, those who have been touched by Jacob are merely protected from dying by certain means (see number 1). 

3) The loophole is that although Jacob always appeared invulnerable, he can be killed, but only by someone he touched. It doesn't make sense for the loophole to be that Jacob cannot die at MIB's hands, but all MIB has to do is convince someone else to do it. Surely, he would have thought of that a long time ago. Jacob being murdered by the hand of someone he's touched/chosen/claimed seems more like a loophole to me. 

I had more thoughts than this when I started, but they escape me just now.


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> I'm also a little concerned that much of seasons 2-5 seems to be getting tossed aside....


On the plus side, maybe those $40 Dharma hoodies will go on sale soon. 
http://abctvstore.seenon.com/detail.php?p=255039&v=abctvstore_lost_apparel


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

eMarkM said:


> I think Flocke is feeding Sawyer the line that they can both go home to trick Sawyer into somehow taking Smokey's place as the New Nemesis or whatever his job entails as anti-Jacob so that Smokey can "go home" and leave Sawyer exiled in the role.


I was thinking that maybe Jacob and Black Smoke guy are both 'trapped' on the island unless they both willingly leave together. If sawyer can become the new jacob, without understanding what that entails, and then he and BS guy leave the island together, that might be BS guy's way off the island. He did complain of being 'trapped' earlier in the episode...


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Yeah, but Jacob had travelled a LOT off the island, so I think only anti-J is "trapped".


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Thoughts on smokey appearing as Ben's mother (sparked by an earlier comment):

First, one big problem with smokey being Ben's mother outside Ben's window is that Ben's window is INSIDE the sonic fence..

..but if it turns out we find there's a way around that, then maybe it went like this:

smokey needs someone in his plan to actually do the killing of Jacob. So he needs someone to HATE Jacob. So he needs someone that Jacob will find uninteresting to be in the vicinity of Jacob.

So he goes to Ben's house, reads his mind, finds out about his mother, and takes on her form outside his window. Ben sees this, and follows. (If I remember right it was split up over two times).. The second time, Ben gets the code to the fence, goes up to the fence, turns it off, and follows smokey-looking-like-his-mother into the island. smokey orchestrates this to happen just when Richard is out in the woods.

Richard runs into Ben, and as smokey hoped, Ben reveals that he saw his dead mother. Maybe seeing dead people is a HUGE indicator to Richard (normally) that someone is special, or Other material, or maybe even a candidate, etc. So smokey has tricked Richard into thinking this ordinary kid is special.

Ben then spends years waiting to hear from Jacob, with Richard believing he's special but Jacob doesn't. Ben gets upset, Ben gets angry and jealous and bitter.

smokey also needs to be someone who can convince Ben to do what he wants, so he finds Locke and orchestrates Locke leaving the island so he can impersonate him. He makes Ben jealous of Locke by appearing to Locke in the cabin, also having the benefit of making Ben think Locke is special.

smokey becomes fakeLocke, and tells Ben he needs to be judged (or at least edges him on). Ben goes to the temple, falls through the floor, and smokey becomes smokey and forgives him, to pull Ben in. He then becomes Alex to warn him to do exactly what (fake)Locke says to do. Then he becomes (fake)Locke again and helps him out of the pit.

He tells Ben to kill Jacob, and then when Ben asks why, he explains that Ben did EVERYTHING Jacob said but still never heard from him.. why WOULDN'T you want to kill Jacob?

(Sorry, I know we already think most of that, but once I got into describing that path I had to finish)


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Ruth said:


> ...normally they let people make the connections themselves instead of shoving them at you, and this time NotLocke not only explained the connection (which honestly I thought was pretty obvious) but they ALSO included the unncessary visuals along with the explanation. Just seemed really over the top to me and I am left wondering why. Is it an explanation that's a misdirection somehow?


I agree - it was very unusual for Lost to do something like this - much more expository than normal. The other scene where that was done in this episode was with the recounting of Jacob's dead body being rolled over into the fire. I don't think that was misdirection - it was just an unnecessary visual recap. I just chalk it up to the style of the director of the episode. Also, it could be that with the show wrapping up, they're taking great pains to spell everything out more clearly, recapping for people who have returned to the show after an absence.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> He makes Ben jealous of Locke by appearing to Locke in the cabin, also having the benefit of making Ben think Locke is special.


But he makes him so jealous that he actually tries to kill Locke, which would most certainly not have been in keeping with his plan.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

danterner said:


> I agree - it was very unusual for Lost to do something like this - much more expository than normal. The other scene where that was done in this episode was with the recounting of Jacob's dead body being rolled over into the fire. I don't think that was misdirection - it was just an unnecessary visual recap. I just chalk it up to the style of the director of the episode. Also, it could be that with the show wrapping up, they're taking great pains to spell everything out more clearly, recapping for people who have returned to the show after an absence.


Well that chick did pick up Jacob's ashes, which I imagine come into play later...


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

danterner said:


> I agree - it was very unusual for Lost to do something like this - much more expository than normal.


I took it as a network maneuver. "Put clips into the show so people will remember what happened."

Greg


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

gchance said:


> I took it as a network maneuver. "Put clips into the show so people will remember what happened."
> 
> Greg


But when has LOST ever done anything like that? The whole point of the flashbacks originally was to give us an idea of what happened pre-Flight 815 crash. But anything that happened after we saw the initial flashback, we never get re-flashbacks on. We always have to dig back into our memory to recall something that happened in a previous flashback. It was definately out of place for an episode of LOST. And then to leave out Kate...it has to mean something.

Watching the flash-sideways things are getting easier for me though. For the most part, it's because I kind of treat those scenes as a different episode in my head. I focus more on the island storyline and then when the repeats hit the following week, I pay closer attention to the sideway scenes.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

3D said:


> But he makes him so jealous that he actually tries to kill Locke, which would most certainly not have been in keeping with his plan.


Ben actually tried to kill Locke twice.. Once at the Dharma grave - and what happened? A vision of Walt told him to get up, he's got work to do (I think that was smokey, since he needed Locke alive longer).

When Ben tried to kill him the second time, that WAS part of the plan.. Locke dies off island. Originally it would have been because smokey told Richard to tell Locke that Locke needed to die to bring the others back.. but then Ben came along and accomplished the same goal (and in fact if Ben hadn't shown up, that goal would have been met anyway - Locke was already committing suicide).


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> I want to see one change that has a long string of consequences, leading to Horace not being off the island on the day that Ben was born (or at least not driving by).
> 
> Ben never goes to island, dharmaville still exists, maybe Dharma folks aren't murdered, they do something that sinks the island?


I like this! It was really the slimmest of coincidences that Roger met Horace. Maybe they didn't hike that day, or the baby didn't come, or maybe they did meet Horace, but he saved Ben's mother--all leading to Ben never going to the island. Or it was destiny and had to happen.....



Queue said:


> Rousseau was always dressed in black so I'm curious if that's a hint that she actually was infected. She heard whispering in the jungle which makes me think the Others knew about her but she was infected so they couldn't bring her to the temple.


Maybe that's why they took the baby--because they knew she was infected and couldn't care for it. So they gave it to Ben? 



Alpinemaps said:


> Remember back to the episode with the Tallies. Didn't the Others think that Mr. Eko was a candidate, until he killed two of the Others? So, you could be onto something...


Is Eko really his last name? If not, we probably don't know it, so maybe he's on there.

Disappointing that Richard seems to know so little.

It would be almost unfair to have a good guy and a bad guy and to represent the good guy with black and the bad guy with white. Not being racial here, but that's just the established symbolism. And Smokey himself considers Jacob to be the white rock.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

This is now my favorite character nickname: the Locke Dressed Monster.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Did MiB need Locke's body back on the island? Ben thinks Locke is now alive, but would that have worked if Locke's body was buried in the US? Is Faraday's Mom (Eloise?) alligned with MiB? Remember, Ben killed Locke only after he heard Locke say he was going to Eloise? Maybe Ben didn't want Locke under the sway of a MiB agent.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> *Did MiB need Locke's body back on the island?* Ben thinks Locke is now alive, but would that have worked if Locke's body was buried in the US? Is Faraday's Mom (Eloise?) alligned with MiB? Remember, Ben killed Locke only after he heard Locke say he was going to Eloise? Maybe Ben didn't want Locke under the sway of a MiB agent.


I don't think we know the answer to that. There have been indications that Smokey uses the likenesses of dead bodies that are on the Island (Locke, Christian) but then there have been other mysterious appearances of people that were either not dead or whose bodies were not on the Island (Walt, Claire, Ben's Mom). So we don't yet know what Smokey's powers are and whether he requires the presence of a corpse on the Island.


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

If smokey has been taking the form of Christian I wonder to what end smokey appeared as Christian to Jack.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Queue said:


> If smokey has been taking the form of Christian I wonder to what end smokey appeared as Christian to Jack.


Interesting...can Smokey leave the island? I wonder what are Smokey's limitations...

I do hope they create a LOST Board Game!


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

I find it hilarious that there are complains about the level of expository dialouge... Really?? On a show that never explains or answers ANYTHING, I'd think we would all be glad to get some solid explanation. I love the cryptic stuff and the mysteries, but there is also a point where just want information, especially at this stage in the game. I don't understand why it was so bad, it at least moved the story forward and made us more curious about the survivors. 

I agree with everyone sentiments about Dharma/Widmore/etc... I sincerely hope that this entire season is built only around Jacob and MiB and their quests for domination over the island--I want that other stuff to come into play also. I'm hoping Hawking tells Widmore where the island is now and he goes there (with Penny and Desmond preferably). Even if they're tricked onto a plane that ends up there... something.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

balboa dave said:


> This is now my favorite character nickname: the Locke Dressed Monster.


 :up:

LDM for short.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

mrdazzo7 said:


> We know that he chose Locke as his Loophole


Ben is the loophole. Locke is just a handy smoke vessel. Do we think Jacob touched Ben? I don't remember that ever happening and I'd be a bit surprised if it did... Ben doesn't seem like the type of person Jacob would touch.

However, we do know that Ben was healed in the pool. Maybe that's what's required to become a loophole?


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

I think Jacob is playing his own long term con.

Why does MiB want Jacob dead? Personal hatred? Is Jacob dying a requirement for MiB getting off the island?

Jacob didn't seem concerned when Ben and MiB showed up in the statue. He also didn't try to calm Ben down, he almost egged Ben on.

So I think Jacob is up to something himself outside "the game".


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## UTV2TiVo (Feb 2, 2005)

T-Wolves said:


> You guys are right -- I went back and re-watched that scene. For whatever reason, I assumed the kid was chastising FakeLocke for killing Jacob, but now I see it is more likely he was warning him that he couldn't kill Sawyer.


I also assumed that the kid was telling FLocke he couldn't kill Sawyer because right after that he leads Sawyer down a treacherous cliff on ladders that are about to give way. I saw that cliff scene as a way for Sawyer to die without FLocke actually killing him. After they got to the bottom Sawyer gave FLocke a look that I interpreted as "Are you trying to kill me? did you know that ladder was going to break?"


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

UTV2TiVo said:


> I also assumed that the kid was telling FLocke he couldn't kill Sawyer because right after that he leads Sawyer down a treacherous cliff on ladders that are about to give way. I saw that cliff scene as a way for Sawyer to die without FLocke actually killing him. After they got to the bottom Sawyer gave FLocke a look that I interpreted as "Are you trying to kill me? did you know that ladder was going to break?"


Except for he saved Sawyer when he didn't really have to (well maybe he did).

If anything, him saving Sawyer supports that the little kid was talking about Jacob.

I also think Jacob was ready to die because he knew someone was coming to take his place and was ready to "switch".


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

GDG76 said:


> I also think Jacob was ready to die because he knew someone was coming to take his place and was ready to "switch".


Nah, I think Jacob was ready to die because it's part of his plan. He's been setting something up all along, and he's not done yet.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

&#8213;Obi-Wan Kenobi


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
> 
> ―Obi-Wan Kenobi


ohh well played indeed...:up:


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

When Richard gets back to the Temple, who's in charge, him or Dogen?


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

mmilton80 said:


> Paradoxes tend to give me headaches.


These LOST threads give me a headache.


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## Eight47 (Feb 22, 2003)

In the episode "Dead is Dead" Ben summoned the smoke monster to avenge the death of his daughter.

Wasn't Locke present when this happened? I think Locke even said "Ben, What did you do?"

But Locke was already killed by Ben. So when did the fake Locke become the MIB/smoke monster?

I'm confused!


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Eight47 said:


> In the episode "Dead is Dead" Ben summoned the smoke monster to avenge the death of his daughter.
> 
> Wasn't Locke present when this happened? I think Locke even said "Ben, What did you do?"
> 
> ...


That was before the Oceanic 6 left the island, and before it moved through time, so it was before Ben killed Locke. Ben killed Locke after he (Locke) left the island to get everyone to come back.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jking said:


> Oh, and I forgot to mention how cool it was that Sawyer assessed within minutes (even drunk) that Locke wasn't Locke.


Perhaps that also explains why he saw young Jacob. He's very perceptive.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Good episode. Nothing new for me to add to the discussion.

Did we learn anything significant from the season of the Tailies? If that disc was omitted from the entire series dvd package, would we be missing anything important? Just asking. I have a crappy memory.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

hefe said:


> A few other names I could pick out...
> 
> Mattingley - Army guy from 1954
> Sullivan - The guy with the rash that Jack treated in S1
> Jones - The name on Widmore's stolen Army uniform in 1954.


Oh, and Mattingly...wore No. 23 for the Yankees....more links


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Did we learn anything significant from the season of the Tailies? If that disc was omitted from the entire series dvd package, would we be missing anything important? Just asking. I have a crappy memory.


That was season two, which was awesomely awesome (down the hatch!), but not because of the Tailies, whose only purpose was to stretch the storyline and provide canon fodder (except for Rose's Bernard, of course).


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

madscientist said:


> Ben is the loophole. Locke is just a handy smoke vessel. Do we think Jacob touched Ben? I don't remember that ever happening and I'd be a bit surprised if it did... Ben doesn't seem like the type of person Jacob would touch.
> 
> However, we do know that Ben was healed in the pool. Maybe that's what's required to become a loophole?


We definitely never saw whether or not he was touched, but based on my earlier post speculating about the rules, I guessed that he was.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Nah, I think Jacob was ready to die because it's part of his plan. He's been setting something up all along, and he's not done yet.


Perhaps his whole plan depended on MIB finally figuring out the loophole, whatever it may be?


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## Rinkdog (Dec 21, 2005)

3D said:


> Also, he was the substitute for Jack's dad on the Ajira flight.


Does this also mean that when we saw Jack's dad "helping" he was actually the smoke monster playing his side of the game. I would think so. Evidently he needs a corpse to assume the persona.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

3D said:


> Perhaps his whole plan depended on MIB finally figuring out the loophole, whatever it may be?


I think he saw it coming, and planned accordingly.

Maybe I'm tainted by seeing the same actor as Lucifer in Supernatural, but I see Jacob as being a lot sneakier and more devious than he initially seems.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think he saw it coming, and planned accordingly.
> 
> Maybe I'm tainted by seeing the same actor as Lucifer in Supernatural, but I see Jacob as being a lot sneakier and more devious than he initially seems.


Mo Ryan has a whole column on Lost and Supernatural similarities. http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2010/02/lost-supernatural.html


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

They actually made a mistake. The name was "Mattingley", not "Mattingly".


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Major suckage....sick of the alternate timeline...what a cop out. I'll stick with it to the end, but this episode couldn't have crawled any slower. Ending was horrible. Names, numbers, protection from nothing....what a bunch of crap. This show is a shell of what it was in season one....sad, sad ending to, what could have been a great series.


Oh, and this is the last post I'll ever make in any of the Lost threads, so save your venom.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Oh, and this is the last post I'll ever make in any of the Lost threads, so save your venom.


Wow! Nice!


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rinkdog said:


> Does this also mean that when we saw Jack's dad "helping" he was actually the smoke monster playing his side of the game. I would think so. Evidently he needs a corpse to assume the persona.


Actually, Flocke is not using old Locke's body. I was just talking about how the Ajira flight was supposed to be as close to the original Oceanic flight as possible (at least according to Faraday's mom, whose name is slipping my mind right now). I do think the smoke monster might very well have been Jack's dad, at least some of the time. I don't however, think a corpse is necessary. We've seen tall Walt, and he's not dead. Then again, maybe that's why he was tall. The smoke monster can take the form of someone who's alive, but it might not be a perfect recreation.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> Major suckage....sick of the alternate timeline...what a cop out. I'll stick with it to the end, but this episode couldn't have crawled any slower. Ending was horrible. Names, numbers, protection from nothing....what a bunch of crap. This show is a shell of what it was in season one....sad, sad ending to, what could have been a great series.
> 
> Oh, and this is the last post I'll ever make in any of the Lost threads, so save your venom.


Why would you post this? I'm never one to claim that someone who doesn't like a show is thread crapping just because they come into a thread about an episode to complain that it wasn't very good. I don't see it as rude or anything, because if someone wants to engage in a discussion of what they didn't like, it's just as valid as those who want to discuss what they did like. But when you come into a thread to say you didn't like something, and then announce that you're not going to ever say another word on the topic, what exactly is the point other than to thread crap? I'd go so far as to say it's a textbook example of a thread crap.

Do you really think that everyone cares that much about your opinion that it needs to be shared, even if you don't want to engage in any back and forth dialogue? Is it that you think you're doing a public service by being the lone voice in the wilderness, on the off chance that we're all so dense that we don't recognize that some people don't like what Lost has become. I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly didn't need to you to tell me that the path this show has gone down is not everyone's cup of tea.

I can come across as more argumentative than I intend when I write, so let me clarify that, per your request, I am not writing this with any venom. By that, I mean that I am not taking a critical stance towards your opinion itself, or even your desire to share it. I take issue, however, with your need to leave your opinion and run for the hills. I just don't see the point.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

If Locke and his dad are (apparently) on good terms in the alt-verse, how'd he get paralyzed there? 

I found it interesting that Jacob brought Locke's body back to life after his fall while Locke's body was partially responsible for killing Jacob. At least it seemed to me that Jacob brought Locke back to life.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

My end game theory:

(paraphrasing exchange between MIB and Jacob)

MIB: It always ends the same, people come, destroy and corrupt. 
Jacob: It only ends once...everything else is just progress.

I believe that Jack and the gang will somehow end the cycle and "progress" proving Jacob (with his idealistic view of humanity) victorious in the game. As a result, the player who win the game for Jacob will be rewarded in a life without the island (i.e. Timeline X).


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

Queue said:


> I think Jacob is playing his own long term con.
> 
> Why does MiB want Jacob dead? Personal hatred? Is Jacob dying a requirement for MiB getting off the island?
> 
> ...


And what better way to play the long con on the MiB than to have Jacob become Sawyer. Consider this flimsy speculation. Sawyer drinks himself to death in grief over Juliet. Soils his shorts (could have done without that visual). Jacob inhabits Sawyer's body and is now enlisted as MiB's minion. Jacob has MiB exactly where he wants him for the double long con.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

mmilton80 said:


> My end game theory:
> 
> (paraphrasing exchange between MIB and Jacob)
> 
> ...


I may be alone in this thought, but...

If this does turn out to just be some cosmic game between two God-like figures (Jacob vs. MIB) I'm going to be disappointed.

*
Possible Lame Endings (in order of lameness -- lamest first)*
1. No explanation
2. Hurley ate too many tacos one night and it was a bad dream
3. Aliens
4. Game between Jacob vs. MIB
5. Everyone on the island was dead and this was purgatory (or heaven)
6. ...
7. ...
8. ...
9. Something really cool that I can't think of now
10. Something even cooler that I can't think of now


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

reneg said:


> Soils his shorts...


So I wasn't the only one who noticed that! I was like "Ewww!!"

The audio was a couple milliseconds behind the video for the entire episode for me. Anyone else?

I think it'll be kind of depressing if Jack and Sawyer end up being the Jacob and Locke "replacements".


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

So whose body was anti-Jacob in prior to having Jacob killed and why did he abandon it? (especially since he doesn't pretend to be real Locke anyway)


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Added a couple more to your list:


uncdrew said:


> *
> Possible Lame Endings (in order of lameness -- lamest first)*
> 1. No explanation
> 2. Hurley ate too many tacos one night and it was a bad dream
> ...


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> I may be alone in this thought, but...
> 
> If this does turn out to just be some cosmic game between two God-like figures (Jacob vs. MIB) I'm going to be disappointed.
> 
> ...


"Aliens" would be my most disappointing. And "No explanation" would be better than a poor one.

We know it is a game, but that's not the ultimate explanation because there is something powerful enough to define the rules and insist that they are minded. It's "The Island". Now, whatever "The Island" is will be a lasting mystery because I doubt will get that explanation. It's something powerful and ancient and ineffable.

The series will end when the game between Jacob and MIB ends which can only end when the stories of our castaways end, and really the last part is the story we're being told, not the story of Jacob or the island. Every mystery won't be solved, but the stories of our characters will reach a resolution.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Add me to the list of people who will be disappointed if the series ends up being really about characters introduced in the last episode of Season 5, and the characters introduced in Seasons 1, 2 and 3 end up being irrelevant pawns in some cosmic game.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

aindik: Actually, Smokey was introduced in the first episode. We just only now learned that he/it is also MIB. Also, Jacob has been mentioned for several seasons, though prior to the last episode of season five, we had only been given quick glimpses of something that was purportedly Jacob.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

wprager said:


> Perhaps that also explains why he saw young Jacob. He's very perceptive.


It's a good skill for a con man to have.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

aindik said:


> Add me to the list of people who will be disappointed if the series ends up being really about characters introduced in the last episode of Season 5, and the characters introduced in Seasons 1, 2 and 3 end up being irrelevant pawns in some cosmic game.


Usually the King does little during much of the game (with the exception of "castling" early on).


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

mmilton80 said:


> Usually the King does little during much of the game (with the exception of "castling" early on).


A chess match isn't about the king. It's about the human beings (or computers) on each side of the board. In the unlikely event that I'm watching a chess match, I know who those entities are the entire time.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

3D said:


> aindik: Actually, Smokey was introduced in the first episode. We just only now learned that he/it is also MIB. Also, Jacob has been mentioned for several seasons, though prior to the last episode of season five, we had only been given quick glimpses of something that was purportedly Jacob.


And MiB has also been around for a while, although it's hard to say how long (i.e., which weird manifestations across the years have been him).


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Also don't forget, the first mention of Jacob was in Room 23 when Karl was getting the Clockwork Orange treatment. The episode was "Not in Portland" from Season 3. That was quite a while ago.

http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/02/brainwashing-scene-text.html

At the time, everyone thought of it as "oh it's just a biblical reference". Looking back now, that makes me smile. 

Greg


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And MiB has also been around for a while, although it's hard to say how long (i.e., which weird manifestations across the years have been him).


This is not really the point. The point is that if the show isn't really about the survivors of Oceanic 815 (or, at least, about the Oceanic 6), but is instead really about something and/or someone else and those folks are marginalized, I'll be disappointed. I'm not really going to be happy with a story where nobody tells the audience who the main characters are until close to the end.

People get annoyed on 24 (which I haven't watched in two seasons) when they keep introducing bigger and bigger bad guys throughout the "day," which makes the stuff at the beginning of the day look tame and irrelevant by the end. I'm getting that kind of feeling here.

I had the same thought when I thought the show might really be about Hawking and Widmore last year.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

aindik said:


> This is not really the point. The point is that if the show isn't really about the survivors of Oceanic 815 (or, at least, about the Oceanic 6), but is instead really about something and/or someone else and those folks are marginalized, I'll be disappointed. I'm not really going to be happy with a story where nobody tells the audience who the main characters are until close to the end.


Well, I think it's always been the Losties' story. It's just that over time, they (and we) have come to a deeper understanding of what exactly that story entails. I think it would have been a long, boring six years if everything that was going to be a part of their story was introduced in the pilot...

And whatever game Jacob and not-Locke are up to, I bet the Losties have played and will continue to play a central role in it.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

aindik said:


> This is not really the point. The point is that if the show isn't really about the survivors of Oceanic 815 (or, at least, about the Oceanic 6), but is instead really about something and/or someone else and those folks are marginalized, I'll be disappointed. I'm not really going to be happy with a story where nobody tells the audience who the main characters are until close to the end.


The main characters haven't changed, nor have they been marginalized. The story is not about Jacob and MIB, nor about the DI or the Others. It's still about the Oceanic survivors and how they fit into the overall mythos. The show isn't about the mythos, but the mythos is being revealed through our character's part in it. We've only had one scene with Jacob and MIB without one of the main characters in it, and that was just a piece of exposition.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

gchance said:


> Also don't forget, the first mention of Jacob was in Room 23 when Karl was getting the Clockwork Orange treatment. The episode was "Not in Portland" from Season 3. That was quite a while ago.
> 
> http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/02/brainwashing-scene-text.html
> 
> ...


Very interesting that the quote says "God loves you as he LOVED Jacob" ... why wouldn't he love Jacob anymore...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

aindik said:


> A chess match isn't about the king. It's about the human beings (or computers) on each side of the board. In the unlikely event that I'm watching a chess match, I know who those entities are the entire time.


You just reminded me that Patchy had an Apple II that he was playing chess with, and he told Locke that he thought the computer cheats.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

gchance said:


> Also don't forget, the first mention of Jacob was in Room 23 when Karl was getting the Clockwork Orange treatment. The episode was "Not in Portland" from Season 3. That was quite a while ago.
> 
> http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/02/brainwashing-scene-text.html
> 
> ...


I'd forgotten the rest of those frames..

Everything Changes

Is that a Rook in one of them?


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Fool Me Twice said:


> The main characters haven't changed, nor have they been marginalized. The story is not about Jacob and MIB, nor about the DI or the Others. It's still about the Oceanic survivors and how they fit into the overall mythos. The show isn't about the mythos, but the mythos is being revealed through our character's part in it. We've only had one scene with Jacob and MIB without one of the main characters in it, and that was just a piece of exposition.


That's a good summation. That's why I think we won't get more answers about the DI or some of the other stuff - if it doesn't matter to our main characters, why should it matter to us?

Nice to know this stuff? Of course. But we may have to look to a different medium to get those answers sometime in the future. Our narrative is about these characters, and the role they play.


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## HIHZia (Nov 3, 2004)

Does anyone else have trouble with the losteastereggs link? That site lock my browser up hard.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

aindik said:


> This is not really the point. The point is that if the show isn't really about the survivors of Oceanic 815 (or, at least, about the Oceanic 6), but is instead really about something and/or someone else and those folks are marginalized, I'll be disappointed. I'm not really going to be happy with a story where nobody tells the audience who the main characters are until close to the end.


I'm with ya.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Jack was going to die at the end of the pilot episode (Seth Norris the Oceanic pilot was killed instead); but that was early on when Jack was going to be played by Michael Keaton and Kate was supposed to be the 'hero' of the show.
> 
> I believe they decided to keep Jack around before they filmed anything.


Just as Hurley was not originally a character at all until Jorge Garcia auditioned, and they decided to create the Hurley character specifically for him.

That doesn't mean that they had the beginning and ending of the story already planned. But for the pilot episode, there was no guarantee that it would continue for 6 seasons.

It's reasonable to let the writers continue to flesh out the story as it moves along.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

getreal said:


> Just as Hurley was not originally a character at all until Jorge Garcia auditioned, and they decided to create the Hurley character specifically for him.
> 
> That doesn't mean that they had the beginning and ending of the story already planned. But for the pilot episode, there was no guarantee that it would continue for 6 seasons.
> 
> It's reasonable to let the writers continue to flesh out the story as it moves along.


Also Yunjin Kim - supposedly she auditioned for Kate and the producers liked her so much they created Sun.

But I do think they had the beginning, middle and end sketched out in some general way, like an outline; and, of course, a lot has been added to flesh out the skeletal framework of the story.

I do not believe that they got a couple of seasons in and then said, "OK we're in for the long-haul, let's have it end like this..."; I think it was more like: "We're in for the long haul, we can start to bring the underlying back-story to the surface, since we'll be able to tell it completely"


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I'm still wondering who Adam and Eve are??!!


They were the island's first gay couple: Adam & Yves.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I re-watched today and noticed a couple things. Why did Locke's boss call him Colonel? Also, since he couldn't go on the walkabout anyway, why not at least check in at the seminar? Locke says the walkabout is man vs nature. Since MiB says he started out as a man, maybe Jacob is nature? (or the island). Probably not....

When Sawyer poured him a drink, Locke licked off his fingers, but didn't drink. When Jacob offered him fish he refused. Can he eat or drink? 

Richard says Locke wants everyone dead. Is he free if Jacob can't chose any more candidates and all the ones on the wall are dead? But he can't kill them. I bet Sawyer can. 

When Locke comes back from chasing the boy, he says, "what boy." Sawyer assumes he's just not going to talk about it, but what if he didn't see him as a boy? If the boy was Jacob and Locke recognized him as Jacob, does that mean they came there as kids?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> At the time, I was thinking the death of Little Ben would be the event, and of course that didn't pan out.


That bit about Ben as a kid who was shot reminded me that he was delivered to Others who took him to the Temple, right? And the TempleMaster told Jack that when you are "claimed", that darkness takes over everything in your soul, or something to that effect. And that is when Ben lost his innocence and grew to become the soul-less adult he is today.

Just an observation. Not written very well, but hopefully understandable.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

getreal: I posted a similar thought in last week's thread, most likely not written any better than you  Great minds...

stellie: In the Walkabout episode from season 1, Locke played some type of game with another co-worker and he was referred to as the Colonel.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Queue said:


> Or maybe they did bring her to the temple and she failed the test and they put her in the jungle because they couldn't harm her because of the rules. That's how she knew how to test Sayid with electrocution.
> 
> And going back to them not being able to hurt Rousseau because of the rules, maybe that's why Jack had to give Sayid the poison. Jack hasn't made his choice yet while the temple others had so they couldn't harm Sayid.


Templetons should know that you put "the pellet with the poison in the vessel with the pestle, while the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true." Unless, of course, something happens to the chalice from the palace, in which case "the pellet with the poison will be in the flagon with the dragon, and vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true."

Or they could have learned from Jonestown and just put the poison in the Kool-Aid.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jking said:


> Crazy theory, but I'm thinking maybe the candidates have a power over the island (or power when in vicinity of the island) of which they are obviously not aware. Would explain their ability to flash off planes when they are crashing and back/forward in time.


Almost every numbered person has been seriously injured and healed quickly on the island. Locke even recovered from a Ben-inflicted bullet wound to the gut! Yet Ben was able to squeeze the life out of Locke when they were both off-island. Yet other original crash survivors had no healing capability on-island (e.g., Boone, Shannon, Libby, Ana-Lucia, etc.). I wonder if that is somehow relevant?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

T-Wolves said:


> OK, just got done reading 5 pages to make sure somebody hadn't already posted this.
> 
> FakeLocke takes Sawyer into a dark cave in the side of a cliff and tells him that Jacob wrote all these names and numbers there.
> 
> ...


I like your thinking. Flocke lives in the dark, and Jacob lives in the light. Black stone, white stone.

What if Flocke is actually the shark, and when he gets to go home, the island relocates to the bottom of the ocean?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Ruth said:


> On the list of candidates: I also found Kate's absense very startling, especially since they made such a huge point about linking the candidate names to the people Jacob visited. ... Is it an explanation that's a misdirection somehow?


Great point! Maybe Kate is not numbered because she will out-survive the rest and turn out to be the ultimate Hero/Savior/Goddess?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

getreal, do you not know about the "Multiquote" feature of this forum?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Ben actually tried to kill Locke twice.. Once at the Dharma grave - and what happened? A vision of Walt told him to get up, he's got work to do (I think that was smokey, since he needed Locke alive longer).


That reminded me of the Lost mobisode #13: "So It Begins"


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> I'd forgotten the rest of those frames..
> 
> Everything Changes
> 
> Is that a Rook in one of them?


It looked like the Bomb to me.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> When Sawyer poured him a drink, Locke licked off his fingers, but didn't drink. When Jacob offered him fish he refused. Can he eat or drink?


Being smokey, everything he consumes gives him gas.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> getreal, do you not know about the "Multiquote" feature of this forum?


Guess not.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> getreal, do you not know about the "Multiquote" feature of this forum?





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Guess not.


LOL! Thanks, guys. I had learned to use that feature just a couple of months ago, but I was just getting finally caught up on this thread and was posting as I was thinking. I was afraid I would forget my thoughts if I didn't post right away, and didn't realize that everybody else had stopped posting. 
D'Oh!


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

The show is still about the passengers of Flight 851.

We're getting to see what's happening to them when they're being manipulated (on the island), and when they're not (side-flashes).


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

dtle said:


> The show is still about the passengers of Flight 851.
> 
> We're getting to see what's happening to them when they're being manipulated (on the island), and when they're not (side-flashes).


Oceanic 815, actually. And the Ajira Flight (I forget the number).


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

getreal said:


> Oceanic 815, actually. And the Ajira Flight (I forget the number).


Ajira 316.


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## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Even more interesting would be if there were no good guy and bad guy, just two different philosophies. At least, it was an interesting concept when Babylon 5 did it, and if Lost does it, they'll probably pull it off a lot better.


Not too far into the thread yet, but I have been thinking it may be a Babylon 5 sort of concept as well. With it being more a Chaos vs Control sort of thing.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Charon2 said:


> Not too far into the thread yet, but I have been thinking it may be a Babylon 5 sort of concept as well. With it being more a Chaos vs Control sort of thing.


Kaos vs. Control is from "Get Smart".


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

The 'loophole' is clearly based on the fact that players on one team can not kill players on the other. However, that does not mean that a player can not kill his or her own teammate. So, Ben is on Jacob's team, he is allowed to kill him. MIB just needs to convince him to do that. That's pretty easy to do if he shows up as Locke (probably the only man Ben truly admires besides himself), and whispers in his ear. 

The thing that will REALLY need to be explained to make me satisfied with this setup is the time traveling. There must be a tie-in with the overall 'game' story for this to work. Things like Desmond being able to skip through time, can't just be ignored.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

I have a question. If Fake Locke is locked into that body, how did he appear to Ben as Ben's daughter?


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

CuriousMark said:


> I have a question. If Fake Locke is locked into that body, how did he appear to Ben as Ben's daughter?


I assume that he didn't get "locke-d" in until Jacob died. Maybe whoever last died gets to switch bodies or something....

Either that or bounty hunter lady was wrong.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

hapdrastic said:


> I assume that he didn't get "locke-d" in until Jacob died. Maybe whoever last died gets to switch bodies or something....
> 
> Either that or bounty hunter lady was wrong.


I forget, did Illana say that MIB was permanently in Locke's body before or after he had been buried?

If after, then my theory is that MIB can appear as anyone as long as they haven't yet been buried. Once buried, he's stuck in that body.

Evidence of this: Christian, Dharma people, Alex. None were buried.

Of course, if Illana said that before Locke had been buried, my theory goes _up in smoke._


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

TheMerk said:


> I forget, did Illana say that MIB was permanently in Locke's body before or after he had been buried?
> 
> If after, then my theory is that MIB can appear as anyone as long as they haven't yet been buried. Once buried, he's stuck in that body.
> 
> ...


I THINK she said it while they were carrying him TO be buried.

She definitely said it after Jacob was dead.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> I THINK she said it while they were carrying him TO be buried.
> 
> She definitely said it after Jacob was dead.


You're right, as Ben and Illana were carrying Locke's corpse, Illana explained that MIB is now stuck looking the way that he does. D'oh!


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

TheMerk said:


> You're right, as Ben and Illana were carrying Locke's corpse, Illana explained that MIB is now stuck looking the way that he does. D'oh!


I think they just needed a mechanism to keep Terry O'Quinn.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

TheMerk said:


> I forget, did Illana say that MIB was permanently in Locke's body before or after he had been buried?
> 
> If after, then my theory is that MIB can appear as anyone as long as they haven't yet been buried. Once buried, he's stuck in that body.
> 
> ...


Maybe _Jacon's death_ has something to do with it. Maybe their various powers are somehow shared.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

mostman said:


> The 'loophole' is clearly based on the fact that players on one team can not kill players on the other. However, that does not mean that a player can not kill his or her own teammate. So, Ben is on Jacob's team, he is allowed to kill him. MIB just needs to convince him to do that. That's pretty easy to do if he shows up as Locke (probably the only man Ben truly admires besides himself), and whispers in his ear.
> 
> The thing that will REALLY need to be explained to make me satisfied with this setup is the time traveling. There must be a tie-in with the overall 'game' story for this to work. Things like Desmond being able to skip through time, can't just be ignored.


I don§t think you§re allowed to write the word !clearly! in a Lost thread.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

mostman said:


> *The thing that will REALLY need to be explained to make me satisfied with this setup is the time traveling.* There must be a tie-in with the overall 'game' story for this to work. Things like Desmond being able to skip through time, can't just be ignored.


Why is that so important from the "game" perspective?


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> getreal, do you not know about the "Multiquote" feature of this forum?


YES is that how people do that?? I never really thought about it but I alwasy thought people just copy/pasted all the quotes, and then the other day I thought "how do they get the user name on each one?".. It didn't occur to me that there was a button for it. VERY handy.

As for Kate missing on the list, knowing the show like I do, it's an obvious clue to SOMETHING.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> As for Kate missing on the list, knowing the show like I do, it's an obvious clue to SOMETHING.


It would be interesting if the reason she was on the original List wasn't because she was a candidate, but because she was needed to be in the cage so Sawyer could have his little encounter, get emotionally closer to her, and decide to jump off the helicopter.

Now, _that _would be micromanaging on Jacob's part!

And maybe not-Locke arranged to have it videotaped so Jack would see it, fall deeper into despair, and be willing to leave the island at any cost.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It would be interesting if the reason she was on the original List wasn't because she was a candidate, but because she was needed to be in the cage so Sawyer could have his little encounter, get emotionally closer to her, and decide to jump off the helicopter.
> 
> Now, _that _would be micromanaging on Jacob's part!
> 
> And maybe not-Locke arranged to have it videotaped so Jack would see it, fall deeper into despair, and be willing to leave the island at any cost.


Prior to being stabbed, Jacob was all about free will (when talking to Ben). Although, Faker-Locke did claim to Sawyer that Jacob was quite the opposite.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mmilton80 said:


> Prior to being stabbed, Jacob was all about free will (when talking to Ben).


Yeah, but I've gotten the impression he's all about people freely choosing to do what he wants them to do.


mmilton80 said:


> Although, Faker-Locke did claim to Sawyer that Jacob was quite the opposite.


But is manipulation destiny?


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

mrdazzo7 said:


> It's just about 90% sure that that's where it's headed, but would be cool if they went somewhere completely different, like "ending" the island once and for all.


Like with it sunk and underwater, you mean?



latrobe7 said:


> For example, Ben, in season 4 especially, seemed to know there was a game at work and knew of the 'rules'; but he seems clueless since he got back to the Island. What game was he playing?


Ben is very sympathetic now because he realizes that all his scheming, thinking himself master of the game, he was completely wrong and completely being used. He lost his daughter and now he realizes it was all so he could be played like a pawn. The life has been sucked out of him. Kudos to the actor.


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## Big Albowski (Feb 21, 2010)

New to the forum but just adding my 2 cents!
Loving this new season with the flash-sideways (or alternate universe) or whatever they call it! Always good to see Hurley and know that he is a good guy no matter what!


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Big Albowski said:


> New to the forum


Welcome


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Big Albowski said:


> New to the forum but just adding my 2 cents!
> Loving this new season with the flash-sideways (or alternate universe) or whatever they call it! Always good to see Hurley and know that he is a good guy no matter what!


Welcome and glad you found your way here!!!


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I never thought of that--so many good people with a bad spot, or bad people who occasionally do something good. Hurley has really never purposely done anything to hurt anyone, has he?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

He stole food. That's about it I think.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

MickeS said:


> Why is that so important from the "game" perspective?


Only because they spent the ENTIRE last season going over it. The Game setup is clearly the final "reveal" of the series. It's the plot element that drives all others. If the time traveling doesn't tie into it - the narrative will be a failure. It will show that the writers were always just winging it. I want a complete tie-in. Not some "the island is just mysterious" cop-out.

I could say the same thing about all the other island elements they have spent time telling us about. I'm picking on the time traveling because it was the most recent.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Big Albowski said:


> Always good to see Hurley and know that he is a good guy no matter what!


You know, that REALLY made me happy too. When I first saw that it was his Hummer, I thought for a moment they were gonna make him into some yuppie jerk... so relieved that they didn't.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

mostman said:


> Only because they spent the ENTIRE last season going over it. The Game setup is clearly the final "reveal" of the series. It's the plot element that drives all others. If the time traveling doesn't tie into it - the narrative will be a failure. It will show that the writers were always just winging it. I want a complete tie-in. Not some "the island is just mysterious" cop-out.
> 
> I could say the same thing about all the other island elements they have spent time telling us about. I'm picking on the time traveling because it was the most recent.


It's entirely possible that the time traveling part (which really ties into the very earthly concept of Dharma etc) is separate from the "game" aspect. I don't have a problem with that. I mean, I don't really see how can we tie Dharma and their experiments with time travel into the game...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MickeS said:


> It's entirely possible that the time traveling part (which really ties into the very earthly concept of Dharma etc) is separate from the "game" aspect. I don't have a problem with that. I mean, I don't really see how can we tie Dharma and their experiments with time travel into the game...


It's entirely possible that Jacob and/or not-Locke was using (or manipulating) the time travel to further his agenda...


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> He stole food. That's about it I think.


That and ran down an Other in the Dharma bus.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's entirely possible that one or the other party was using (or manipulating) the time travel to further his agenda...


Sure. I just don't think it's necessary to explicitly tie in every important element of the show to "the game".


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> That and ran down an Other in the Dharma bus.


Heh. I guess that kinda hurt the bad guy. But , it was a good thing to do.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

MickeS said:


> Sure. I just don't think it's necessary to explicitly tie in every important element of the show to "the game".


It may not be possible to do otherwise though. For example, would Dharma be there if Jacob* didn't want them to be there?

*I have watched every episode so far, but I know that others pay WAY more attention to the details than I do, so if MiB has also brought folks to the island, than my above statement should read "would Dharma be there if Jacob or MiB didn't want them to be there?".


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

mostman said:


> clipped- ...The Game setup is clearly the final "reveal" of the series.


I sure hope not. We spent 5 seasons of The Others telling the Survivors of 815, "We'll answer all your questions about the island, just follow me/do this/go there, etc..." Now we find out they never had any of the answers, only Jacob and MIB did. I'm sure there's more to this island than it being a game with two puppet masters. If not, I hate to say it, but I feel a little bit like The Long Con was on the viewer.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jradford said:


> I sure hope not. We spent 5 seasons of The Others telling the Survivors of 815, "We'll answer all your questions about the island, just follow me/do this/go there, etc..." Now we find out they never had any of the answers, only Jacob and MIB did. I'm sure there's more to this island than it being a game with two puppet masters. If not, I hate to say it, but I feel a little bit like The Long Con was on the viewer.


Well, WE may have had 5 seasons of it, but outside of the short 3-year jaunt to 1977, the survivors have only had about 5 months of it, maybe 6.

Greg


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jradford said:


> I sure hope not. We spent 5 seasons of The Others telling the Survivors of 815, "We'll answer all your questions about the island, just follow me/do this/go there, etc..." Now we find out they never had any of the answers, only Jacob and MIB did. I'm sure there's more to this island than it being a game with two puppet masters. If not, I hate to say it, but I feel a little bit like The Long Con was on the viewer.


Not the Others.

Ben.

Big fat liar Ben.

And I think it's ironic that Ben never had the answers, but he did indeed help lead the Losties to them, probably unwittingly.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> When Sawyer fell down the cliff, I was half expecting NotLocke to turn into Smokey and reach out and grab him.


Not that this show is realistic by any stretch, but I don't think Sawyer could have survived that fall (off the ladder) as well as he did, much less even hang on as he did. I, too, expected Flocke to turn in to Smokey and save him.

So, if we're guessing Flocke can no longer inhabit any other bodies now that Locke is buried, does that also mean he can't turn into Smokey? Or is Smokey above all else?

The only bad thing about these flash-sideways for me (which was really apparent) last night was that I really had forgotten about Helen, and how they got together, and why they split up... to know what the differences were in the timeline, if any. I also wondered about the dad thing, wondering how the heck Locke was in the chair if he had a good relationship with him.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

sushikitten said:


> So, if we're guessing Flocke can no longer inhabit any other bodies now that Locke is buried, does that also mean he can't turn into Smokey? Or is Smokey above all else?


In the most recent episode we saw him as smokey flying around (we actually saw smokey's point of view), then saw smokey's reflection in the window of a Dharmaville yellow building, then saw it look down at Locke's knife, and saw Locke's hand pick it up (i.e. we were there for a change between smokey and fake Locke). He can still become smokey.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> In the most recent episode we saw him as smokey flying around (we actually saw smokey's point of view), then saw smokey's reflection in the window of a Dharmaville yellow building, then saw it look down at Locke's knife, and saw Locke's hand pick it up (i.e. we were there for a change between smokey and fake Locke). He can still become smokey.


But wasn't that BEFORE they buried the real Locke?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I don't like the term "Flocke". I saw that EW used the term "Un-Locke". I like that.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> In the most recent episode we saw him as smokey flying around (we actually saw smokey's point of view), then saw smokey's reflection in the window of a Dharmaville yellow building, then saw it look down at Locke's knife, and saw Locke's hand pick it up (i.e. we were there for a change between smokey and fake Locke). He can still become smokey.





sushikitten said:


> But wasn't that BEFORE they buried the real Locke?


Even if it was (don't remember), it's not Locke being buried that keeps smokey from changing to other faces, because Illana told Ben that smokey couldn't change his face anymore _before_ buring Locke. It's probably Jacob dying that 'locked' the smoke monster into "Locke"s form (as well as being able to be a pillar of black smoke).


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Then I am lost.  I swear that's what was being discussed in the thread - that the actual burial of Locke was the necessary piece preventing MiB from taking another form.

But this is a Lost thread so I'm always lost.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

So recently (even before replying to the last post) I was thinking about why smokey wouldn't be able to look like someone else anymore. I keep going back to Jacob being dead as what seems like the most obvious change to me.

Then I was remembering that when someone asked Richard why he never seemed to age (deja vu - did I already post this?), he replied that "Jacob made me this way".

Did Jacob give Richard the ability to not age, give Hurley great luck, keep the falling 815 passengers alive, and make someone's dead body that was burned into black ash the ability to float around and think and mimic people, resulting in smokey? Maybe Jacob's death _ends_ these gifts somehow, and smokey can't read people's dna blueprints anymore to mimic them, and now maybe Richard will start aging, and other things change?

Eh, half thought out thought.

I wanna see more that backs up the picture frame changing.

As for the time travel and game story lines, I don't think it will take much to link them (for me anyway) - but I think we'll see at least something (like time travel being an unfortunate but unavoidable part of moving the island, since moving the island is done by briefly turning on the warp drive in the island, which is in fact a space ship, which necessarily warps time to travel faster than light.. Jacob and smokey argue about humanity during or as part of the game they're playing, smokey realizes he can take advantage of the Dharma people experimenting with time (or a regular island move with a dislodged donkey wheel) to cheat at the game, Jacob sees him making the move but can't do much (like someone seeing an inevitable consequence of moves in a chess game), but plans something even further down the line after this piece sacrifice (which happens to be himself), etc).

Ok, maybe it will take much.  But yeah, something like that would be nice. And if it was just hastily introduced like I just did, the idea of space aliens would feel abrupt and cause lots of people to say things like "I'll be disappointed if it's that", but I'd argue that those same people would have said the same thing if during episode 2 of season 1 they said "by the way there's a wooden wheel that when turned makes the island disappear and possibly jump people or itself around in time" - yet they made that very interesting. If it ends up that smokey is either an alien or has copied an alien's form (or just copied someone from the far far future from some extreme island time flash), I feel confident based on what we've seen that they'd present that well and bring us all happily along for the ride.

28.5 hours left (give or take a few minutes).


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

sushikitten said:


> Then I am lost.  I swear that's what was being discussed in the thread - that the actual burial of Locke was the necessary piece preventing MiB from taking another form.


I had floated that idea, but then jkeegan corrected me. Illana said that MIB could no longer take a different form before they had buried Locke. The two are unrelated.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

sushikitten said:


> Then I am lost.  I swear that's what was being discussed in the thread - that the actual burial of Locke was the necessary piece preventing MiB from taking another form.
> 
> But this is a Lost thread so I'm always lost.


Yeah someone suggested that but I think they were mistaken about the order of things, and that was pointed out in a later post.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

TheMerk said:


> I had floated that idea, but then jkeegan corrected me. Illana said that MIB could no longer take a different form before they had buried Locke. The two are unrelated.


there ya go.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

The one thing that bugged me about the burial of Locke - they made it seem like it was a short walk from the statue to the castaway's beach. Remember, Sun saw the statue at the end of Season 2, from the boat. And Sayid was shocked to see it, as he had hiked in that same direction (Season 1, to the point that he met Danielle), and never ran into the statue either.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

in the alternate timeline, hurley is married to libby

still hope they resolve why libby was in the looney bin.

that's all i have


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## danschn (Apr 22, 2004)

MiB/UnLocke tells Sawyer, "It's just an island; it doesn't need saving." He obviously wants Sawyer to go with him, supposedly to leave the island. Are we able to judge whether all these explanations from the cave are true? 

When the bomb went off, in the resulting flash sideways, the island is underwater. The plane never crash-landed, and all Jacob's manipulation was thwarted to bring the passengers onto the island. So apparently, the island without Jacob's successful manipulation is destroyed. It does need saving. 

Therefore, we know UnLocke is lying to Sawyer. They're both manipulators.

Also, after Sawyer and UnLocke see the boy in the woods - this time not bloody - UnLocke takes off after him ("You can't kill him"), and Richard pops out to try to get Sawyer to return to the temple. He scurries away when UnLocke comes back, who then asks Sawyer who he's talking to. Sawyer obviously lies and says no one. It seems a little odd for UnLocke to just let that go, but then he just returns the lie when Sawyer asks about the boy. They both know and accept that they lied to each other's face.

There's a lot that UnLocke knows, but like the old brain-teasers, we can't trust anything he says. We can't sort out the truth.

Finally, in the season opener, UnLocke, clearly angry after disposing of Richard with a quick attack announces to everyone there that he's "disappointed" in them. What on earth for? That's something one would say when he had different expectations, but this was a collection of Jacob's protectors, Others that he was leading (when they thought he was Locke and special) and some survivors along for the walk. What does he have to be disappointed about?


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## jhowell (Sep 19, 2006)

bruinfan said:


> in the alternate timeline, hurley is married to libby


How about, in the new timeline Hurley gets together with Kate? Any *haters* out there?


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## BK89 (Oct 11, 2005)

mostman said:


> Things like Desmond being able to skip through time, can't just be ignored.


Maybe Desmond is the referee.


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## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

MickeS said:


> I don't like the term "Flocke". I saw that EW used the term "Un-Locke". I like that.


And the "real" locke would then of course be Dead-Locke!


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

so, 
fake locke enters the cave, goes to the scale, and takes the white rock and throws it away, leaving behind what symbolizes him winning:

THE BLACK ROCK

hmmmmm....


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

I was listening to the Black Rock podcast on the way home from work today, and someone brought up a scene in Walkabout, offering up an interesting theory. I watched it while working out tonight...

At one point, Locke, Michael, & Kate are charged by a boar. Michael's leg is cut, while Locke is thrown onto his back. As he tries to get up, Kate asks if he's ok, at which point he responds, "I'm okay, Helen, I just got the wind knocked out of me."

At the time, we didn't know there had been a real Helen in his life, and we were led to believe he was referring to the phone sex operator. Could it be possible, though, that he had moved between realities?

He's in his van, pulls into his driveway, and the lift doesn't work. So he tries to ride off, but falls flat on his face on the grass, where the sprinklers turn on:

"I'm okay, Helen, I just got the wind knocked out of me."

Something to think about.

Greg


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

gchance: At the risk of sounding like Forrest Gump, I like that alot.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

gchance said:


> I was listening to the Black Rock podcast on the way home from work today, and someone brought up a scene in Walkabout, offering up an interesting theory. I watched it while working out tonight...
> 
> At one point, Locke, Michael, & Kate are charged by a boar. Michael's leg is cut, while Locke is thrown onto his back. As he tries to get up, Kate asks if he's ok, at which point he responds, "I'm okay, Helen, I just got the wind knocked out of me."
> 
> ...


That's interesting!

I've been enjoying listening to Jorge Garcia's podcast - thanks for pointing it out. It's a bit disjointed, but it's amusing to see how much he's like (and not like) the character he plays. In the most recent podcast, he made a comment about the scene you describe above (re: the sprinklers). I'm going to spoilerize it out of courtesy since it's from a third-party source, but I don't think it's particularly "spoilery":



Spoiler



In the script for the episode, the sprinklers are described as making the same sound (TIKKA-TIKKA-TIKKA) that the smoke monster makes, and the same sound effect was used. I didn't pick up on that while watching the episode.

The other thing they discussed which I found interesting was the fact that in an earlier season, when Jack was brought in to do surgery on Ben, one of the Others complained about Jack saying "but he's not even on Jacob's list!" yet in this episode we saw in the cave that Jack's name WAS on the list as a candidate.

Or was it -- I recall the name on the wall being "23 - Shepard" and this could be referring to Christian rather than Jack. Maybe Christian was Jacob's candidate, not Jack, but Christian was "claimed" by the MIB and so Jacob wound up looking to the son, instead. The show was so heavy into father/son issues, thematically, early in its run. I'd love to see that tied back in some meaningful way as the show concludes.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

danterner said:


> That's interesting!
> 
> I've been enjoying listening to Jorge Garcia's podcast - thanks for pointing it out. It's a bit disjointed, but it's amusing to see how much he's like (and not like) the character he plays. In the most recent podcast, he made a comment about the scene you describe above (re: the sprinklers). I'm going to spoilerize it out of courtesy since it's from a third-party source, but I don't think it's particularly "spoilery":
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I heard the same podcast, and actually just rewatched that episode. As Jorge said, it could simply be that Pickett isn't privy to Jacob's actual list. My thought was that perhaps the list they were referring to at the time wasn't necessarily THE list... as in the list of candidates. Maybe it was just the list of people Jacob wanted brought to the other side of the island at that particular point in time. Ben decided to add Jack to the list on his own because he needed him. But at any rate, in the next scene he was on the verge of killing Sawyer and most likely Kate... two people who (according to the dialog in that episode anyway) WERE on Jacob's list. So Pickett wasn't exactly playing with a full deck. Not sure Jacob would have liked it if he had killed them.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

3D said:


> gchance: At the risk of sounding like Forrest Gump, I like that alot.


I'm also willing to bet that throughout this season there will be little moments like that that may or may not be connected, but that will happen simply because we were watching differently back then.

As some of us pointed out about Babylon 5 (sorry to keep bringing up that show) where things early on that were seemingly throwaway lines were references to later in the series that when viewed later, make you view the scene differently.

I'll also say this about Walkabout: although I expected the ending, Terry O'Quinn's acting was amazing, and the quality of the episode that early on in the series is a rarity. It did get bogged down by Shannon though. 

Greg


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Answers from Damon and Carlton, via the podcast, about the ultrasound photo and the date of death of the historical Dogen.



Spoiler



The ultrasound photo is a prop error. 815 lands on 9/22/04 in the flash sideways world, same day it was supposed to land in the world in which it crashed.

The fact that the Budhist philosopher Dogen from the thirteenth century died on September 22, 1253 is not something they knew about when creating the Dogen from the temple character.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Five hours, fifteen minutes left! (woohoo east coast!)


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

gchance said:


> I was listening to the Black Rock podcast on the way home from work today, and someone brought up a scene in Walkabout, offering up an interesting theory. I watched it while working out tonight...
> 
> At one point, Locke, Michael, & Kate are charged by a boar. Michael's leg is cut, while Locke is thrown onto his back. As he tries to get up, Kate asks if he's ok, at which point he responds, "I'm okay, Helen, I just got the wind knocked out of me."
> 
> ...


I just rewatched the scene in The Substitute, and the line is not in it repeated as described, John simply says "I'm fine" no "I just got the wind knocked out of me" in the scene.

Diane


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