# Can we get honest information/dialog from Tivo?



## sdzc (Sep 4, 2005)

I know that Tivo employees read this forum.

Can we please get some honest dialog and responses in regards to the Premiere and the issues it has from you? Jerry, Stephen (some names of Tivo employees that have posted on the boards in the past, I think), please respond.

I am trying to make a decision as to how to proceed with the Premiere (do I buy three or not) and all the negativity on this board is making me think I do not want to as I cannot trust they will work properly.

If I saw some official responses, answers and information from Tivo about the issues and any potential upcoming fixes, I would buy them tomorrow.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Follow her: http://twitter.com/tivodesign

Too many trolls in this forum anymore, so the TiVo team doesn't frequent here too often. And I don't blame them.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

sdzc said:


> I know that Tivo employees read this forum.
> 
> Can we please get some honest dialog and responses in regards to the Premiere and the issues it has from you? Jerry, Stephen (some names of Tivo employees that have posted on the boards in the past, I think), please respond.
> 
> ...


follow the quote in my signature to a thread where TiVo was interacting but then the rep was attacked over Mcard in the S3 - an old issue that was off topic - 
Sadly that means you will not get what you ask for here I think.


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## cranbers (Apr 2, 2010)

Why would tivo employees come to a third party tivo themed forum when they have their own company hosted forum?

forums.tivo.com

I seriously doubt it has anything to do with having feelings hurt but more a company policy. Tivo can't control what happens here, but they can control what hapens at forums.tivo.com

Makes sense to me.

21k posts in 6 1/2 years, thats 8.8 posts per day. Now that is what I call dedication.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cranbers said:


> Why would tivo employees come to a third party tivo themed forum when they have their own company hosted forum?
> 
> forums.tivo.com


that is strictly a support forum. It is not meant for general dialog like the OP asked for or happens here.


> I seriously doubt it has anything to do with having feelings hurt but more a company policy. Tivo can't control what happens here, but they can control what happens at forums.tivo.com


 You obviously did not follow the link (little arrow by name) in my quote to the thread I pointed out. It was not hurt feelings but direct accusation over verbal comments by a Tivo employee at a trade show. It was an obvious rant/attack and the only professional thing to do was to disengage from the conversation. At the start of that thread TiVoPony was doing exactly what the OP was asking for and recently, so TiVo reps have shown they want to do exactly what the OP asked for, within limits of public comments on internal roadmap of course. It was clearly the current hostile nature of some posters in this forum that ended it.



> Makes sense to me.
> 
> 21k posts in 6 1/2 years, thats 8.8 posts per day. Now that is what I call dedication.


which should indicate that I know what I am talking about in regards to what transpires in this forum.


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

@ZeoTivo: I am sure you mean well but I -personally- believe you are taking that issue way out of proportion. I thoroughly read the thread where the "accusations" took place, and I come to a very different conclusion than you do. You are totally entitled to your opinion, and feel free to share it as frequently as you like, just know that there are others, like me, who do not share your view. I actually think that both parties (Roy & Pony <edited>) handled it pretty well.

What the original poster is asking here is reasonable (I mean, don't we all like to hear from Tivo directly) but, unfortunately, Tivo revealing strategic information or admitting any suboptimal performance issues can only hurt them. Let's not forget that the people in this forum are better informed than the "general" public so our expectations are higher as is our hunger for more information. I, for one, was very unhappy when I acquired the S3 initially. Tivo fixed my issues in the months that followed. Currently it seems I am one of the few happy Premiere XL users (then again, most happy users don't reach out to Forums). So, my recommendation to you: buy one and see if you like it. Buy from a shop that has a flexible return policy in case you are disappointed.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mvnuenen said:


> I actually think that both parties (Roy & Jerry) handled it pretty well.


it was TiVoPony  and he handled it well by deciding to stop participating in a thread that was clearly on track to be a great premiere thread (with the limitations I mentioned and you detailed) until the threadcrap and hostile nature derailed it. Make of it what you will but the thread speaks for itself and I am not alone in this opinion and it speaks directly to the OP's question.

oh and in case you have doubts still


TiVoPony said:


> Roy, good job digging up that video from 2006.
> 
> <snipped the background info>
> Now that the full background is there...I'm not looking for an argument. But I will share that this type of 'welcome' is exactly the reason you don't see much of the old TiVo gang online here anymore. Since dropping back in here I've had some words of encouragement, but it's also been asserted that I don't tell the truth, am not to be trusted, that I'm a 'marketing puke'...
> ...


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

Again, I do not perceive it the same way you do. Let's just agree on that and both/all work towards a community where open dialogue is possible.

On a brighter note, if I am not mistaken, after Pony's last post, did we not see involvement from TivoMargarite (sp?) in a software release thread?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

mvnuenen said:


> ...On a brighter note, if I am not mistaken, after Pony's last post, did we not see involvement from TivoMargarite (sp?) in a software release thread?


Which kind of surprises me after reading this less than civil post: 


Thuye said:


> Hey Margaret, I have some feedback for ya. Tivo should be ashamed of duping their loyal customers into buying this piece of crap, and guess what; you got me to pop for two of these pieces of junk. NEVER AGAIN!!!


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

Yeah... that statement leaves little room for interpretation... Obviously I do not condone or agree (with the statement that is)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mvnuenen said:


> Again, I do not perceive it the same way you do.


how do you perceive TiVoPony's post then? Do you think that the posts attacking TiVoReps help open discussion? It looks to me like you could have a disagreement with them and present it in a way that promotes some dialog, I am fine with that - but the examples noted here are far from that and it is my contention that they make the forum less than it could be. Please help me understand how this could be perceived differently?

Note - back in the day I got caught in the pay for HMO, Nope it is free snarl. TiVoStephen was dealing with that and I had a complete disagreement over how it was handled. TiVoStephen and I had several back and forth posts over the issue and it was good, open discussion. We both kept it professional and realized it was only business and nothing personal. I am completely behind constructive criticism of TiVo and its products, that is clearly the most valuable thing we can give to TiVo reps here and make participation worthwhile. I have found any TiVo rep more than open to constructive criticism. I just think the attack nonsense is bad for the community and only meant to make the poster feel better.


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

My point, dear ZeoTivo, is that I think you should let it rest. Regarding the Roy/Pony discussion, I, and others, have a different perception that you, and others, have. No need to rehash it. It is what it is. Regarding the other flame, well, I regret it happened. At the end of the day we both/all want the same thing. It is also not between you and me. It is about being civilized in a Forum. Obviously some very disgruntled people like to vent and we must accept that it happens in one form or another. I feel like I'm preaching though I am not quite sure for what - ha ha


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mvnuenen said:


> My point, dear ZeoTivo, is that I think you should let it rest.


and I disagree. 
Roy declared TiVoPony was not telling the truth and pulled out 3 year old video - are you going to tell us how you perceive that as something different than an attack that TiVoPony would see as a reason to lessen his participation here?


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

I, like TivPony, am a marketing professional. Certain things you let blow over and may be that is exactly what Pony is currently doing. As I stated before, I think both Roy and TivoPony handled it well. As YOU kept bringing it up in different threads -heck, you even have it as your signature- I got it in my silly head to make you aware of the fact that not everybody sees it the same way you do. But, as you can't to seem let go of it, I will honor your TCF 21k+ posts and respectfully retreat from this discussion. Enjoy the last word on this


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I'll chime in that I agree with ZeoTivo, and with our combined post count that crushes the arguments of everyone else. Hope that settles it.


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

i agree with Zeo too, but my post count is pretty weak, not bad for a month though


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

What a second! You can't agree or disagree on perceptions. You share them or you don't... 

Mmm, this makes now 21K + 23K + 262 against 146. Ok, I know my place on TCF... back into my corner now... It's lonely here


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

On this issue, whatever disagreements we have, its actually Tivo's oppinion of what happened that matters. Some here want a promise and will not be satisfied by anything less than a promise, even if the promise would be unrealistic. Example: HD menus on S3's. Not an issue for me, but was was some. We now know (I think) that the S3 architecture probably couldn't support that without a performance hit, if at all.

Besides, some of your issues are probably with management and marketing, who control the purse strings, not with the developers who really, no foolin', want to fix every major and most minor bugs THAT THEY CAN.


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## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

mvnuenen said:


> I, like TivPony, am a marketing professional. Certain things you let blow over and may be that is exactly what Pony is currently doing. As I stated before, I think both Roy and TivoPony handled it well. As YOU kept bringing it up in different threads -heck, you even have it as your signature- I got it in my silly head to make you aware of the fact that not everybody sees it the same way you do. But, as you can't to seem let go of it, I will honor your TCF 21k+ posts and respectfully retreat from this discussion. Enjoy the last word on this


I think you don't quite realize that Roy is constantly derailing any and every thread he can remotely attach the same old complaints about the same old things.
He's become the type of poster you ignore even if you agree with him.
It detracts from the usefulness of TCF and just sours the mood... it is not a good thing for the TCF community.


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

Fair enough. I didn't realize that indeed but I also think it is better what you suggest: ignore/let rest...

On a different note: DID YOU SEE THE SATISFACTION POLL? Blew my mind to be honest. Totally contradicts the general sentiment I perceived <love that word> on the Premiere forum


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ferrumpneuma said:


> I think Tivo is taking the "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all" approach to this product release.


I think it is more like "If You can not say *it *nicely" and heck just say it objectively and professionally is all that is asked. TiVoPony was well aware of the Mcard issue and had posted here about it sometime back with a big mea culpa that it was a problem TiVo had with the firmware. In the thread he also stated he was aware of issues folks had around the premiere.

Bottom line the community as a whole suffered because a moderated forum has folks being jerks to company reps.



mvnuenen said:


> Fair enough. I didn't realize that indeed but I also think it is better what you suggest: ignore/let rest...
> 
> On a different note: DID YOU SEE THE SATISFACTION POLL? Blew my mind to be honest. Totally contradicts the general sentiment I perceived <love that word> on the Premiere forum


I only bring this up in threads that have a direct bearing on the matter. The OP specifically asked why TiVo reps did not participate here. Do you think my posts are off topic?
and yes - the poll points out how posters with an axe to grind can alter the perception of what the forum reflects if you just take the posts at face value versus an over time dynamic.

PS - if everyone saw this the same way as I did, then it would not have been an issue to begin with and we could be happily giving our positive and negative feedback on the premiere to TiVo reps in multiple threads.


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## 241705 (Mar 9, 2010)

mvnuenen said:


> On a different note: DID YOU SEE THE SATISFACTION POLL? Blew my mind to be honest. Totally contradicts the general sentiment I perceived <love that word> on the Premiere forum


As usual, those that are happy with the product aren't quite as vocal.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

turbobozz said:


> I think you don't quite realize that Roy is constantly derailing any and every thread he can remotely attach the same old complaints about the same old things.
> He's become the type of poster you ignore even if you agree with him.
> It detracts from the usefulness of TCF and just sours the mood... it is not a good thing for the TCF community.


And he will happily cease posting the same old complaints about the same old things when (if?) the same old problems are finally fixed.


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## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

RoyK said:


> And he will happily cease posting the same old complaints about the same old things when (if?) the same old problems are finally fixed.


I can sympathize about problems that never get fixed, but you're beating a dead horse.
TiVo knows about the gray screen problem and the S3's that will never be able to use a single Mcard for both tuners.
Any regular TCF lurker knows you are vocal about them.
You are at this point 'that guy' who just brings down a thread and makes it acerbic... with nothing to show for it.
It doesn't help, and it drives people away. (IMO)
Perhaps you could link old posts and direct discussion there instead of fully reintroducing your thoughts on the problems in every thread where it might apply?


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

+1.

the attitude absolutely turns people away. I have not visited in nearly a month due to his painful posts.

If he wishes to cause pain, I ask that he please stop causing it to us. We don't deserve such treatment.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jrtroo said:


> +1.
> 
> the attitude absolutely turns people away. I have not visited in nearly a month due to his painful posts.
> 
> If he wishes to cause pain, I ask that he please stop causing it to us. We don't deserve such treatment.


Forum owners and moderators should take note of this.
I would ask Roy to take note but that seems a lost cause.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

turbobozz said:


> I can sympathize about problems that never get fixed, but you're beating a dead horse.
> TiVo knows about the gray screen problem and the S3's that will never be able to use a single Mcard for both tuners.
> Any regular TCF lurker knows you are vocal about them.
> You are at this point 'that guy' who just brings down a thread and makes it acerbic... with nothing to show for it.
> ...


+1


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Forum owners and moderators should take note of this.
> I would ask Roy to take note but that seems a lost cause.


I've been a long time lurker here and I have to say, this place has become nothing but a 24 hour whine fest.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I've been here since 2006, and I've witnessed the decline of TiVo rep participation.
It really started long before the Roy/Pony fiasco, but I think that was the proverbial "nail in the coffin".
That, and when DaveZats posted an out of context comment from a TiVo rep on his blog.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

sdzc said:


> I am trying to make a decision as to how to proceed with the Premiere (do I buy three or not) and all the negativity on this board is making me think I do not want to as I cannot trust they will work properly.


What's the rush? Do you *have* to buy three boxes right now? Can you buy just one box now?



> If I saw some official responses, answers and information from Tivo about the issues and any potential upcoming fixes, I would buy them tomorrow.


Do you really need "official responses"? The threads in this forum keep people apprised of all bugs, updates, and workarounds. What would be different if you read a post by a user whose nom de plume started with "TiVo"?

Buy now and be a pioneer, possibly with a few arrows in your back, or wait a few months until most of the early bugs are worked out.

I have 4 TiVo HD boxes I'm happy with. I might never buy a Premiere. When is the Series 5 coming out? Maybe I'll need a replacement box by then.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

steve614 said:


> That, and when DaveZats posted an out of context comment from a TiVo rep on his blog.


Yeah, but that's straight out of some weird "co-dependent" relationship. E.g. Zatz just recently posted something about a wireless N adapter that TiVo sent him to give away. So there's plenty of "Oprah" or maybe "Maury" stuff doing on there. Maybe Zatz and Tivo should go on "Dr Phil" to work things out. I think if Zatz attacked Apple the same way he did TiVo, that SJ would send the Silicon Valley REACT people around to his house.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

steve614 said:


> I've been here since 2006, and I've witnessed the decline of TiVo rep participation.
> It really started long before the Roy/Pony fiasco, but I think that was the proverbial "nail in the coffin".
> That, and when DaveZats posted an out of context comment from a TiVo rep on his blog.


Yep, I think too it was cumulative. This huge thread crap in the TiVo Coffee House forum where Pony shared a "feel good story" about the beginnings of TiVo made me choke on my own rage.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Any attitude here about TiVo did not become "hostile" overnight.

And the crappy/half-implemented software in the TiVo Premiere is not going to help. Let alone how the company seems to have spent the last 2 or 3 years letting the world pass it by.

The one thing that actually will help is for the product to live up to the hype -- at least halfway. To actually function well... To actually have a consistent, well thought out, functional interface (again).

Any hostility here towards TiVo is well earned. And well deserved. And while I can still see them making a decision to participate here less and less due to their current state of affairs, they seriously need to ask themselves how it got so bad here. Because until they deal with those issues, going away isn't helping them. At all.

When the house is burning down, closing your eyes doesn't put out the fire.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Any attitude here about TiVo did not become "hostile" overnight.
> 
> And the crappy/half-implemented software in the TiVo Premiere is not going to help. Let alone how the company seems to have spent the last 2 or 3 years letting the world pass it by.
> 
> ...


 what? This is like the anger over health care - are you saying it is OK to throw bricks at windows becasue it is well earned?? at no point has anyone said you could/should not criticize TiVo inc. or statements made by TiVo reps. The message is simply that there is a right way to do that which is objective and not personal in nature. Do you think referring to "marketing/sales pukes" at TiVo which is the profession some of the TiVo reps here have is OK simply because you do not like the product or its direction?????
Sorry but *hostility* is simply not OK. period. This is not an official TiVo inc. place, no rep has any reason to have to be here. If you worked at a pizza place and someone started calling you foul names because you would not swing by and pick up something from the market what would you do? It happened to me back in the day and I hung up. Why reason with open hostility. 
 _So we the community then have no dialog with TiVo inc. here because of the decisions of a few hostile people_. 
I will say again that the bottom line is that is simply not right and the forum owner needs to start deciding what is really wanted here. People who can respectfully, objectively make their point or just an openly hostile whine fest.


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## Thuye (Mar 21, 2010)

So, Tivo has some unhappy customers. After the less than adequate Premiere, thats expected. Now the Tivo staffers have decided not to participate. Fine. How about a few messages on the device about the issues with the Premiere and what they are doing to resolve those issues. I received several messages about season passes, 30 second skip, etc. But nothing about the problems with the Premiere. Hey Tivo, two words... Circuit City!



dswallow said:


> Any attitude here about TiVo did not become "hostile" overnight.
> 
> And the crappy/half-implemented software in the TiVo Premiere is not going to help. Let alone how the company seems to have spent the last 2 or 3 years letting the world pass it by.
> 
> ...


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## raker (Jan 20, 2003)

dswallow said:


> Any attitude here about TiVo did not become "hostile" overnight.
> 
> And the crappy/half-implemented software in the TiVo Premiere is not going to help. Let alone how the company seems to have spent the last 2 or 3 years letting the world pass it by.
> 
> ...


:up:

Sorry, this is a forum. A blog with threads. Differing opinions. I have a right to express my opinion within reason. No threats. No verbal abusive language. If I want to say the software issued with the release Premiere was IMO a beta experiment, I will.

Tivo should be embarrassed. Really. This thing- if buying the XL, costs 800 bucks with lifetime. It's not a 125 dollar media player. If Tivo has to pay overtime to the engineer working on this "release", pay him/her.

Fix it. Now. What ever it takes.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> what? This is like the anger over health care - are you saying it is OK to throw bricks at windows becasue it is well earned?? at no point has anyone said you could/should not criticize TiVo inc. or statements made by TiVo reps. The message is simply that there is a right way to do that which is objective and not personal in nature. Do you think referring to "marketing/sales pukes" at TiVo which is the profession some of the TiVo reps here have is OK simply because you do not like the product or its direction?????
> 
> Sorry but *hostility* is simply not OK. period. This is not an official TiVo inc. place, no rep has any reason to have to be here. If you worked at a pizza place and someone started calling you foul names because you would not swing by and pick up something from the market what would you do? It happened to me back in the day and I hung up. Why reason with open hostility.
> 
> ...


The reason TiVo should be here is because their customers are gathered here, en masse.

If they're too sensitive to handle a few hecklers then they need to have some people in support who can deal with it better. And maybe that means they just have to learn to suck it up and ignore the hecklers, and only respond to those inquiries put out there respectfully. That's just life in a customer service business. And maybe they need to stop being totally silent; if there's something being asked and ignored, perhaps occasionally saying why they can't answer is a good idea -- (i.e., forward looking statements/disclosures, etc.)

If they really want to take their toys and go home... that works both ways. TiVo's not the only company out there, at least not in any way like they used to be. Now is not the time to be behaving like spoiled brats. 6 or 8 years ago, they could; they had no real competition. Nowadays -- there's a much bigger risk to them alienating their loyal customer base.

Again, TiVo earned this treatment; it didn't happen overnight. They now have a PR job to do: fix the broken mess they've created (and I'm not talking just about the Premiere). And that includes dealing with people who might call them by various names other than their professionally selected nicknames.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

dswallow said:


> The reason TiVo should be here is because their customers are gathered here, en masse.
> 
> If they're too sensitive to handle a few hecklers then they need to have some people in support who can deal with it better. And maybe that means they just have to learn to suck it up and ignore the hecklers, and only respond to those inquiries put out there respectfully. That's just life in a customer service business. And maybe they need to stop being totally silent; if there's something being asked and ignored, perhaps occasionally saying why they can't answer is a good idea -- (i.e., forward looking statements/disclosures, etc.)
> 
> ...


 2150?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

raker said:


> :up:
> 
> Sorry, this is a forum. A blog with threads. Differing opinions. I have a right to express my opinion within reason. No threats. No verbal abusive language. If I want to say the software issued with the release Premiere was IMO a beta experiment, I will.


I haven't seen anyone suggest that you shouldn't be able to say that. But the fact is that some people here are sometimes uncivil and even downright abusive. They've been that way toward TiVo employees and there doesn't seem to be any effort from the management here to discourage it.

Given that, I can certainly understand why TiVo seems to have abandoned active participation in this forum. Whatever benefit they get is pretty much offset by the fact that they're constantly being assailed over one thing or another. If all they can say is "we're working on it" and that's not an acceptable answer for some people, then what's the point?

So instead they've chosen another tact. If you want updates, follow tivodesign on twitter. At least on twitter personal attacks are limited to 160 characters at a time.


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## sdzc (Sep 4, 2005)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> What's the rush? Do you *have* to buy three boxes right now? Can you buy just one box now?
> 
> Do you really need "official responses"? The threads in this forum keep people apprised of all bugs, updates, and workarounds. What would be different if you read a post by a user whose nom de plume started with "TiVo"?


Do I need three, kind of. One for each kid and one for the living room. All of those locations have S2's, which Comcast is forcing my hand with by going all digital.

We do have one TivoHD and like it.

As for official responses, yes, I would prefer to see the Tivo employees who have frequented here join in this conversation (although the thread is kind of off topic now).

My reasoning is this: This new box was supposed to be this awesome game changer (according to the marketing) and it obviously is not even close to this now and some would say there is no real reason to upgrade from an HD unit. Will there be updates which will make the Premiere shine? I hope so, but it would be reassuring before making this huge investment by hearing by those within Tivo.

I understand the pitfalls by Tivo doing this, but what about the benefits?

- How many people, like me, are leaning no because of all the bad press the Premiere is getting?
- How many people are returning Premiere units to Tivo and to stores because of the issues.

I think that if Tivo would get ahead of the issue a little that more people would jump and buy them knowing that Tivo is good at software upgrades and that people may hold off of returning them if they know something is in the works.

I am sure there are other viewpoints, but Tivo has to realize what $299 + service means to people in the current economy. I cannot be wrong about this and you can bet I will be fully checking each unit for 27 days to stay within the return period if I choose to buy. I will not hesitate to return them if I think they are what I hope they are not.

Thank you for asking the questions.


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## magnum68 (Aug 22, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Any attitude here about TiVo did not become "hostile" overnight.
> 
> And the crappy/half-implemented software in the TiVo Premiere is not going to help. Let alone how the company seems to have spent the last 2 or 3 years letting the world pass it by.
> 
> ...


Very well said!


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

mvnuenen said:


> What a second! You can't agree or disagree on perceptions. You share them or you don't...
> 
> Mmm, this makes now 21K + 23K + 262 against 146. Ok, I know my place on TCF... back into my corner now... It's lonely here


Add your 146 to Dswallow 44K and whatever I have and you are back in a game. 
Zeo and others just don't know better. People like me and dswallow who been here when this forum started remember that this forum wouldn't even exist if Richard AKA Tivolutionary was not actively participating every single day. It is an interaction between TiVo and fans what made this forum great. When he was let go, Pony tried to fill his shoes but could never do it and this forum turned into TiVo "fanboys" vs frustrated users bash.
Playing ostrich doesn't help neither TiVo or users. TiVo attitude has changed from being helpful and interactive with users to trying to use this forum as a marketing tool. And since it didn't work they walked away. So be it. They just shot themselves in a foot.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Well if you go by the current poll, almost 75% are either very satisified or somewhat satisfied. Yet there have been many negative posts. I would think the majority of people are fine with the Premiere. I have no issues. And the best thing is the Premiere will only get better.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> Well if you go by the current poll, almost 75% are either very satisified or somewhat satisfied. Yet there have been many negative posts. I would think the majority of people are fine with the Premiere. I have no issues. And the best thing is the Premiere will only get better.


Looking at the same numbers you can equally say that 60% of the users are either very dissatisfied or somewhat dissatisfied. Which only says that one can (usually) interpret poll results to agree with most any point she wants to make.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

I voted somewhat satisfied because it does work as a TiVo.

However, I have been critical of a poor performing and incomplete product. Between my family and friends, I have *12 active TiVo's* on my account, so I would like to see TiVo succeed.

Something is very wrong at TiVo. This is an extremely poorly executed launch. No attention was paid to the performance of the product. DVR's produced years ago display video windows and menus pop up and complete with sub-second performance.

I think the folks at TiVo just took what Broadloom was offering and did no early prototyping. This platform is optimized for flash. Really, what would it be like if it were not. I just hope that it can be fixed.

Apparently, there is no image caching. With only 512 meg of memory, can that be fixed? How is this a good idea to a system intended to be expanded with new applications?

The only new technology I have seen lately that performs worse is BD-Live.

If the customer base is underwhelmed, imagine new customers.
Are there new customers?

- Rich


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dswallow said:


> If they're too sensitive to handle a few hecklers then they need to have some people in support who can deal with it better. And maybe that means they just have to learn to suck it up and ignore the hecklers,


read the thread that my quote links to.
It was not heckling - it was 
"So TiVo never promised the S3 worked with Mcard"
"That is right"
"I have a 3 year old video taken impromptu on the floor of a trade show in which you state 'when Mcards copme out, the S3 will use them' so you are not telling the truth"

ok - first off the TiVo rep meant that no OFFICIAL word from TiVo ever promised Mcard in the S3. But here he is in another UNofficial setting and being told he lies becasue the poster dug up a 3 year old video that was also not an official communication. BTW the thread had nothing to do with the S3

So being caught up in a grilling over an issue that is old and dead horse,etc. and seeing that the poster has the time and agenda to twist any unofficial comments to his own end - the TiVo rep stops saying anything and leaves. very rational.

Did it get us answers on the premiere? Did it help the people that were actually being helped by the TiVo rep in the very way the OP and you asked for?
*NO *

So why on earth are you saying you want TiVo to come here and help and then glossing over the fact that with TiVo here doing the very thing you want some ONE poster decides to sidetrack and ambush the tivorep thus loosing us all the very thing we want. It works both ways, the posters in this forum need to suck it up and act with some respect and dignity as well.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Looking at the same numbers you can equally say that 60% of the users are either very dissatisfied or somewhat dissatisfied. Which only says that one can (usually) interpret poll results to agree with most any point she wants to make.


Huh? No you can't. The total number of not satisfied is just under 20%. Look again:


```
Very Satisfied			56	39.72%
Somewhat Satisfied		50	35.46%
Not sure / Undecided		8	5.67%
Somewhat Dissatisfied		16	11.35%
Very Dissatisfied		11	7.80%
```


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> Add your 146 to Dswallow 44K and whatever I have and you are back in a game.
> Zeo and others just don't know better. People like me and dswallow who been here when this forum started remember that this forum wouldn't even exist if Richard AKA Tivolutionary was not actively participating every single day. It is an interaction between TiVo and fans what made this forum great.


Did you all accuse Bullwinkle of lying? Did you call him a puke? Or did you all talk about the product and what you liked and did not like about it?

That is likely the real difference here. TCF is not the only forum suffering from this shift in online behavior either. Look at where sling community went after it was bought by DISH and reps left. Now capable is shutting it down. They should take a lesson from that and let this be a _moderated_ forum where people from TiVo inc. can expect to be treated in a businesslike, professional manner versus having their posts and words twisted to suit some basher's agenda.

I also want TiVo in here, I would love them telling us how the effort to get the second core is progressing.
Maybe get some ideas on what menus will be turned to HD next. What are the menu bottlenecks and is their a compromise the users and TiVo inc. could live with to get over the early slowness. etc... We were started down that path in that thread until Royk derailed it. That is right there in the thread and clear to read. Why is anyone condoning that?


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

RichB said:


> Apparently, there is no image caching. With only 512 meg of memory, can that be fixed? How is this a good idea to a system intended to be expanded with new applications?


Caching of the images that are (apparently) being downloaded over and over again doesn't need to be in RAM, it can be cached to disk and still speed up the system tremendously. 512MB of RAM for a Linux-running, single-program, single-user, embedded-type device should be plenty.



> If the customer base is underwhelmed, imagine new customers.


Well, the customer base of S3/HD owners is certainly underwhelmed, who gain almost no features except a larger default drive and faster networking (unless you count gaining a slow, buggy HDUI a feature).

Personally, I hoped the next TiVo would have had local backup of settings, a flash card reader/writer, hard drives in removable cartridges, maybe a switch to 2.5" drives, an alpha-numeric front display with controls, ability to play more video formats, firmware/OS stored in flash instead of the hard drive, keyboarded remote with pointer, web browser, etc.

Or at least offer some of those interesting options on a higher-end model. Instead, we can pay an additional $200 for $20 more hard drive space for an otherwise identical "XL".


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> Huh? No you can't. The total number of not satisfied is just under 20%. Look again:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


Which proves my point. If one is not completely satisfied then he is somewhat dissatisfied. RichB's post above illustrates that.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> read the thread that my quote links to.
> It was not heckling - it was
> "So TiVo never promised the S3 worked with Mcard"
> "That is right"
> "I have a 3 year old video taken impromptu on the floor of a trade show in which you state 'when Mcards copme out, the S3 will use them' so you are not telling the truth"


If you are going to quote something then please be accurate with your quote. No such thing was said.



ZeoTiVo said:


> ok - first off the TiVo rep meant that no OFFICIAL word from TiVo ever promised Mcard in the S3. But here he is in another UNofficial setting and being told he lies becasue the poster dug up a 3 year old video that was also not an official communication. BTW the thread had nothing to do with the S3


Again, for the umpteenth time, the individual was NEVER told he lied.

The person was the Director of Marketing for TiVo. How "OFFICIAL" can you get?



ZeoTiVo said:


> ...


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> The person was the Director of Marketing for TiVo. How "OFFICIAL" can you get?


this is not an official forum
verbal comments at a trade show about a device from some other company (Mcard) that is not even specced out yet is always taken with a grain of salt and clearly NOT the same as a released press statement or product spec.

though clearly paraphrasing the exchange you did indeed state to TiVoPony that he was not telling the truth and it is clear that your interaction did indeed derail the thread from its helpful back and forth on premiere.

here is your post for completeness - I left in the part you snipped since it saves reading the other thread


RoyK said:


> TiVoPony said:
> 
> 
> > Roy, good job digging up that video from 2006. Ahh, we were all so much younger then.
> ...


----------



## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

I think at the end of the day "satisfaction" is in the eye of the beholder. I am very satisfied with the PXL as it works so much better with SDV compared to the S3 I had till now. For those of you where the S3 worked already perfect you are expecting much more in the Premiere. I also don't suffer from lagging menus or lock-ups. I have none of that. Hence, how satisfied one is depends on where you're coming from.

I will say that it is somewhat unusual for firms to actively participate in open forums. If a firm decides to do so, usually to either market their new offerings (which is virtually always prohibited by the Forum rules) or to provide technical support (which is much more common) and get user feedback, of course they are going to be exposed to criticism. Even while it seems in this thread that there are two parties, at the end of the day we will all agree that criticism needs to be expressed in a civilized way. But hey, what is civilized? That is also personal. We like Tivo to be involved in this Forum because that is what they always did and the oldtimers here cherish those wonderful memories. But seriously, I didn't come to this forum in the first place to seek company involvement. For that I will contact them directly. I came to seek help/advice/tips&tricks from users, and over the years I have received this greatly. 

At face value I do not see anything wrong with the comments made by the accused parties (I will even admit that I find Thuye's rant getting funnier and funnier the more I read it). If the verbiage gets out of control, I agree, the moderators must put a stop to it. All in all, I can live with or without Tivo's involvement. For me, it is just business and the Tivo is just a product. I think dswallow summarized it excellently to describe the state of affairs. How hard the criticims might be, Tivo employees should never take it personal. Heck, I wish there was a Forum for the business I am in; it is free market research and customer feedback. Instead, my firm has to pay dearly for that...


----------



## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

TiVo would benefit greatly by some statements indicating that performance issues will be addressed. However, they are a litigious company so I expect them to clam up (and that is understandable).

I just hope the message is making it into the ivory tower. Those walls came be very difficult to penetrate. 

- Rich


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So why on earth are you saying you want TiVo to come here and help and then glossing over the fact that with TiVo here doing the very thing you want some ONE poster decides to sidetrack and ambush the tivorep thus loosing us all the very thing we want. It works both ways, the posters in this forum need to suck it up and act with some respect and dignity as well.


If a rep for a company that is selling and supporting a product is bothered by one user repeatedly asking the same question, the rep should learn about the ignore feature of forum software. Why is that so difficult to understand? At least 99% of the active users here are respectful when dealing with TiVo reps, and with each other. Yet you seem intent on focusing on the idea that even 1 "bad person" is sufficient reason for someone to not participate int he forum at all. Frankly, you sound like an elementary school teacher intent on punishing the whole class for the behavior of one person. That may work with 6 year olds, but not with adults.

Personally, I'm pissed about the multicard debacle on the S3, too. And while I can accept that TiVo, for some reason, cannot or will not support them on the S3 as, if not outright claimed, was certainly implied when first introduced. But what I've never heard from TiVo is actually an explanation as to why it cannot or will not be supported. You know, something like: "well, at the time the hardware was designed it was expected to work, but unfortunately the designers didn't take into account XYZ and that needs a whoozit chip installed on pins 4, 5, and 12 of the CableCARD connector, so there's no way we we can enable multiple streams with an M card on the S3."

You know. Communications.

People will, strangely enough, accept answers they don't like, but still at least want the answers provided to their questions and concerns. And in their absence, people complain. Loudly, sometimes. And that pent-up frustration spills out when, finally, an outlet for it comes along.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

mvnuenen said:


> ...at the end of the day we will all agree that criticism needs to be expressed in a civilized way. But hey, what is civilized? That is also personal. We like Tivo to be involved in this Forum because that is what they always did and the oldtimers here cherish those wonderful memories...


It would seem that the level of (acceptable) civilized communication is gauged by TiVo, and because of a few participants in this forum that fall (sometimes FAR) below that level, the remainder of TCF is penalized.

So who's next? Will the level of civil discussions drop so low to drive away active, helpful non-TiVo corp. members like bkdtv, moyekj, wmcbrine, richsadams, ggieseke, etc.? What's left? A quagmire (giggity) of negativity, where that help/advice/tips&tricks can no longer be found. I'm pretty sure that will not happen, but why take the chance? Ban the users that blatantly break the forum rules by posting "false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing" material, and _maybe_ the folks at TiVo will again come back around...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dswallow said:


> If a rep for a company that is selling and supporting a product is bothered by one user repeatedly asking the same question, the rep should learn about the ignore feature of forum software.


RoyK did not ask the same question of TiVoPony over and over he said TiVoPony did not tell the truth and pulled out a 3 year old video to bring his spin to it. 
If you are a marketing employee and it is related to your company that is not a light accusation. Again TiVoPony clearly indicated RoyK's behavior as why he is not here speaking about the premiere. You can spin that all kinds of ways for whatever reasons you have but that is the result and bottom line and no debate can change that FACT. Though RoyK may spin that into some 60% fact only 



dswallow said:


> You know. Communications.


you mean like this

you damn him for things he has already tried to do until the hostile, whiny nature of this forum made it clear that participation was not worth the risk.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

turbobozz said:


> I can sympathize about problems that never get fixed, but you're beating a dead horse.
> TiVo knows about the gray screen problem and the S3's that will never be able to use a single Mcard for both tuners.
> Any regular TCF lurker knows you are vocal about them.
> You are at this point 'that guy' who just brings down a thread and makes it acerbic... with nothing to show for it.
> ...


I'd like to add my 2 cents here. Letting an issue lie fallow can many times give the impression that it isn't serious. Keeping the issue current applies urgency to the issue and keeps it in peoples(TiVo's) mind. I don't have a problem with Roy's bringing up a current and deal breaking issue, when the thread turns in that direction.

Also, think of how many problems that don't get attention here and elsewhere that continue to be problems because people don't comment on them. For instance, except for TiVo owners how many people are affected by the CCI byte? Nothing is being done about it because the cable companies know it's a small percentage of people and their voices aren't going to be heard. The CCI issue is bigger than TiVo and out of their control(mostly) and as long as most people don't complain it's never going to be fixed.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> RoyK did not ask the same question of TiVoPony over and over he said TiVoPony did not tell the truth and pulled out a 3 year old video to bring his spin to it.
> 
> If you are a marketing employee and it is related to your company that is not a light accusation. Again TiVoPony clearly indicated RoyK's behavior as why he is not here speaking about the premiere. You can spin that all kinds of ways for whatever reasons you have but that is the result and bottom line and no debate can change that FACT. Though RoyK may spin that into some 60% fact only


Sounds like TiVoPony is the one with a problem. He's so mean-spirited that he'll walk away from hundreds or thousands of customers because one person mentions something that is even partially true, if perhaps stretched to make his point?

I don't care how useful or important you are. If you're that petty, go away.

There'll be people you don't like in life that you occasionally have to come across; the forum lets you deal with them in a pretty darn graceful way -- something unavailable in real life. Ignore them via the forum if you are incapable of ignoring them yourself.

Nobody in a marketing capacity for any company that actually wanted to market their product would behave like that. "Oh gee, I just won't say anything because maybe I'll be called on it later." Well, duh. And there's the real problem: TiVo management's attitude.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> I don't have a problem with Roy's bringing up a current and deal breaking issue, when the thread turns in that direction.


this is how RoyK brought it up - the S3 was not even being discussed at all. Part of the behavior I think should be addressed here is finding a vaugue link to take a thread off topic. We all do it but usually it is to discuss something of peripheral interest versus a way to whine yet again about an old, dead horse issue.


RoyK said:


> brasscat said:
> 
> 
> > I agree the second core is probably being used at the os/hardware level.
> ...


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> RoyK did not ask the same question of TiVoPony over and over he said TiVoPony did not tell the truth and pulled out a 3 year old video to bring his spin to it.
> If you are a marketing employee and it is related to your company that is not a light accusation. Again TiVoPony clearly indicated RoyK's behavior as why he is not here speaking about the premiere. You can spin that all kinds of ways for whatever reasons you have but that is the result and bottom line and no debate can change that FACT. Though RoyK may spin that into some 60% fact only


Pony said what Roy said he said and it was very clear to anyone watching the video. If there was a retraction the next day, month, quarter, or year is where the debate started. I don't recall any retractions and haven't seen any references to any either.

I think Roy was completely justified in calling out Pony on that. As a representative of a publicly traded company he should be aware of claims he makes about a product and the impact those might have if they aren't correct.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> this is how RoyK brought it up - the S3 was not even being discussed at all. Part of the behavior I think should be addressed here is fiding a small link to take a thread off topic. We all do it but usually it is to discuss something of peripheral interets versus a way to whine yet again about an old, dead horse issue.


That was completely on topic and goes to TiVo's ability to follow through on a commitment. Saying the second core would be enabled later and pointing out the same claim was made with regard to M-Cards is valid.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

dswallow said:


> Nobody in a marketing capacity for any company that actually wanted to market their product would behave like that. "Oh gee, I just won't say anything because maybe I'll be called on it later." Well, duh. And there's the real problem: TiVo management's attitude.


Apparently, Marketing is completely unaffected by this idea.
Given the technical state of the Premiere, who in their right mind would have done that event and this ad campaign?

If you think they do not know, just look at the video ad's on your Premiere. They are slide shows. We are playing videos of slide shows for a video product. Hello. 

There is something wrong at the highest levels of TiVo Management.

- Rich


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dswallow said:


> I don't care how useful or important you are. If you're that petty, go away.


yet you just made the case for TiVo employees to not post here much. You think RoyK was anything else other than petty in sticking it to TiVoPony about an issue that TiVoPony had already clearly communicated on here and was for all accounts a dead horse issue.

Oh and way to add petty to the list of unprofessional adjectives heaped on TiVoPony. You say you do not see the problem here. hmmmm............


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

samo said:


> When he was let go, Pony tried to fill his shoes but could never do it and this forum turned into TiVo "fanboys" vs frustrated users bash.
> Playing ostrich doesn't help neither TiVo or users. TiVo attitude has changed from being helpful and interactive with users to trying to use this forum as a marketing tool. And since it didn't work they walked away. So be it. They just shot themselves in a foot.


And again, the notion that people are arguing that we should ignore problems or that people shouldn't complain is a strawman.

Claiming that the only thing that has changed in this equation is TiVo and their participation here is nonsense. TiVolutionary served a forum of "TiVo fanboys." When someone was being a jerk he would say so and the general forum response would be, "Yes, that guy's being a jerk."

Today there is an army of jerks backing up every jerk's right to be a jerk. Jerks are "frustrated users" and anyone arguing for civility or defending TiVo's right to try to pursue a profitable business model is a "fan boy". Even TiVoShanan wasn't immune to the jerk horde.

If TiVo wants to rebuild its customer relationship they're better off doing it elsewhere. They have their own forums now and that would avoid all the problems we see here. A relationship has to be mutual and there's no basis for rebuilding that here.


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## ilkevinli (Jan 6, 2001)

Who decided it was a "dead horse" ? You ? If there is a Tivo customer that has an issue with it, its not a "dead horse".



ZeoTiVo said:


> yet you just made the case for TiVo employees to not post here much. You think RoyK was anything else other than petty in sticking it to TiVoPony about an issue that TiVoPony had already clearly communicated on here and was for all accounts a dead horse issue.
> 
> Oh and way to add petty to the list of unprofessional adjectives heaped on TiVoPony. You say you do not see the problem here. hmmmm............


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Rude behavior is rude behavior. Nothing to be gained from being an ******* with a group of people.

This thread is great as it is allowing me to greatly enhance my ignore list. Thanks!


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ilkevinli said:


> Who decided it was a "dead horse" ? You ? If there is a Tivo customer that has an issue with it, its not a "dead horse".


Whether or not it's a "dead horse" it's certainly thick with irony that anyone would defend RoyK's behavior in a thread where the OP is calling for "honest information/dialog from TiVo."

It's a perfect example of why we don't get that kind of dialog any more. TiVoPony said something at a trade show before a product was released based on his best knowledge and understanding of the product and TiVo's plans at the time. He was honest.

Technical problems arose. Business circumstances changed. Plans changed with them. And now that instance of being open and honest is held up as an example of being dishonest and used as the basis for personal attacks.

In this environment TiVo is foolish to talk about anything until they're absolutely certain about it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ilkevinli said:


> Who decided it was a "dead horse" ? You ? If there is a Tivo customer that has an issue with it, its not a "dead horse".


TiVoPony gave us an honest answer on the issue back in 2008 - that is linked in a prior post of mine in this thread. He told us quite honestly that TiVo had a design of hardware/firmware they put together in anticipation of the mcard but that the design could not be made to support the Mcard and keep the S3 stable. In effect he let us know how TiVo screwed up on that one.

Did the honest communication help? For some yes, but as NRC points out - that honest communication did not stop TiVoPony from being jerked around with his own honest communication. The fact that others do not see a problem with it and feel lectured instead when the jerky behavior is pointed out just goes to show how ingrained into the forum the problem is. Users alone can not solve this problem as it seems unlikely the behavior will stop on its own - thus the quote in my signature that I think says it all.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ferrumpneuma said:


> That is what royk should have quoted. A statement made by TiVoPony about m-cards in the S3 after m-cards were in the wild. S3 lack of m-card support was a business decision not a technical limitation.
> 
> Grain of salt?


yeah, something along the lines of 
- it looks from this post as if I will have to pay an extra x$ a month because of a TiVo error. IS there anything TiVo can do to make that right by me?
Now there is a dialog that is business like but gets to the heart of the matter at the same time.

Grain of salt is an expression to not take the words at complete face value but use your own info to decide the veracity of the comment. In this specific case - noting that the S3 was a prototype, that the Mcard was not fully specced and thus could not be tested on the prototype and then later seeing that the manual and product specs did not mention an Mcard(I think, do not have those materials to hand to check).

a "barring technical difficulties" is implied when speaking of prototypes but does not make it into marketing speak very often.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ferrumpneuma said:


> Zeo, I agree it's nice to be nice and you get more flies with honey and all that but you want to cut TiVo a BUNCH of slack.
> 
> I just thought I'd post the quote to remove all doubt for other reading this thread.


umm - you missed the rest after the bold
", but also technically very complex. We've learned that there is a lot of risk inherent in that development"

the FULL statement implies they technically screwed up the design and did not want to go brick a bunch of S3 DVRs already in customers' hands.

and since this is like the 5th time I have said TiVo screwed up the tech design on the S3 in regards to Mcard - how am I cutting them slack?


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVoPony gave us an honest answer on the issue back in 2008


He's supposed to. But whether TiVo was able to follow up on the claim or not they've demonstrated that if a feature is too difficult or problematic they will abandon it, regardless of promises. Pointing that fact out is hardly an irresponsible move.

I'm glad you posted the retraction though. It was good to see Pony's exact response at the time. I wonder if RoyK missed that as well....


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> ...
> I'm glad you posted the retraction though. It was good to see Pony's exact response at the time. I wonder if RoyK missed that as well....


I didn't miss it. It was made in April 2008 - about a year and a half after the Series 3 was released.....


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

RoyK said:


> I didn't miss it. It was made in April 2008 - about a year and a half after the Series 3 was released.....


Doh!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ferrumpneuma said:


> I read the whole post. To me it's marketing speak to say there are to few S3 in the wild to matter to TiVo's bottom line and they are not going to invest in the S3 further.
> 
> I would speculate very little was invested on m-cards in an S3.
> 
> ...


specualte all you want, does not make it true.
You have no idea how much they worked on testing this in the wild and how many resources they had working it.

It also is off the topic anyhow. RoyK had his answer in 2008 yet he had to jerk TiVoPony around about it still. What useful purpose did that serve? It actually led the thread away from getting follow up answers on the dual core issue that was what people wanted to talk about. But no RoyK making the topic mCard in the S3 was soo much better and then jerking TiVoPony to the point that the thread lost his presence - that was brilliant, I could not agree more. 

A few people with S3 that could not get 2 Scards is not the same as base performance on a premiere

sp grain of salt is - there was no timetable given and TiVo admitted to needing to do more work so did not have an answer to hand. Buy the premiere based on how it now works and how much store you put in TiVo making it better over time. YMMV


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> That was completely on topic and goes to TiVo's ability to follow through on a commitment. Saying the second core would be enabled later and pointing out the same claim was made with regard to M-Cards is valid.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


>


you use the word commitment and thus have failed to realize what is being debated here, no surprise to anyone. 
TiVo did not in fact commit to Mcard on the S3. What was presented was TiVoPony making some verbal statements at a trade show with only a prototype and no Mcard to test with. Please try and keep your facts at least 60% accurate.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

It will obviously never be valid to Zeo. I don't intend to rehash it with him any further. Unless he brings it up, yet again, in another thread like he did in this one.


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## raker (Jan 20, 2003)

> People will, strangely enough, accept answers they don't like, but still at least want the answers provided to their questions and concerns. And in their absence, people complain. Loudly, sometimes. And that pent-up frustration spills out when, finally, an outlet for it comes along.


+1 :up:


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> It will obviously never be valid to Zeo. I don't intend to rehash it with him any further. Unless he brings it up, yet again, in another thread like he did in this one.


Wow - I am completely on topic in this thread and you are CONSTANTLY threadcrapping many threads to the point earlier in this thread someone said they stopped coming to the forum as much because of your threadcrap. And let us not forget the main point I am making that _your threadcrap on a dead horse issue lost the community a resource more valueable than any poster here - dialog with TiVo representatives_.

I note the same 3 or 4 posters here all backing up your jerk post as they do in other threads.

We watched you try and claim 60% are "somewhat dissatisfied" based on an obvious biased reading of factual poll results.

You have no credibility at all outside your little group and sadly seem to have no idea that this is so.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ...
> We watched you try and claim 60% are "somewhat dissatisfied" based on an obvious biased reading of factual poll results.
> 
> You have no credibility at all outside your little group and sadly seem to have no idea that this is so.


For goodness sake ease off Zeo. I claimed only that one can interpret the same poll numbers in different ways to prove most any point one wishes to. In that poll and in most other polls that are not designed by experts and based on a valid statistical sample.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> For goodness sake ease off Zeo. I claimed only that one can interpret the same poll numbers in different ways to prove most any point one wishes to. In that poll and in most other polls that are not based on a valid statistical sample.


 go buy a Moxi


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you use the word commitment and thus have failed to realize what is being debated here, no surprise to anyone.
> TiVo did not in fact commit to Mcard on the S3. What was presented was TiVoPony making some verbal statements at a trade show with only a prototype and no Mcard to test with. Please try and keep your facts at least 60% accurate.


Commitment in this sense is a statement made to the public. I believe you could equate the forums both statements were made in to be somewhat equal, however I would think statements made at a trade show would hold more weight than a random post in a forum but what do I know.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> Commitment in this sense is a statement made to the public.


OK, that is what TiVoPony did but commitment implies something more than verbal statements to a general public.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I have no problems accepting TiVoPony's answer to the M-Card/S3 issue; I don't like it, and I think it demonstrates how poorly their development group is with regard to their own products. But we knew that based on how the state of the Premiere release, didn't we. 

The point is, if it was asked/answered, then if RoyK kept dragging it out as an example, all TiVoPony need do is ignore him, or post two sentences pointing to the old post where it was actually answered. It's real easy to do. It's one person. It's no big deal. And it's hardly even worthy of an entire thread like this one making ridiculous claims that a single person's behavior is any sort of valid excuse for someone who has been representing the company whose product this forum is all about and thousands of users are here discussing, to leave.

RoyK (or anyone) can just as easily go over to whatever other forums he participates in and ask him there.

TiVoPony needs to have an answer to that query, just like he has answers to many other queries. It's not a burden. It's simply answering a query, like any other. I'm sure he's had more cases of people asking for a free space indicator than RoyK could possibly mention the S3 M-Card issue.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> OK, that is what TiVoPony did but commitment implies something more than verbal statements to a general public.


This is where my problem lies. What constitutes a commitment? Does it have to be a notarized statement signed in blood, an announcement at a trade show, or listed in a SEC filing? Who is authorized to make statements that would be commitments? Pony is a TiVo rep and if he says they are working on something, it's a commitment. Following through however is a totally different matter.


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## Rebate_King (Nov 10, 2004)

I wonder how many threads RoyK has ruined? Its a real shame that the new owners of this forum just don't seem to care enough.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> This is where my problem lies. What constitutes a commitment? Does it have to be a notarized statement signed in blood, an announcement at a trade show, or listed in a SEC filing? Who is authorized to make statements that would be commitments? Pony is a TiVo rep and if he says they are working on something, it's a commitment. Following through however is a totally different matter.


I think official press release or product specs or product manual. See it there, then it should be in product or TiVo did not fulfill its part.

They did work on Mcard support, they could not make it work and feel the S3 would remain stable. IS that a amrk against the product whether they promised/comitted to it or not? Absolutely. anyone who asks about an S3 should be told in the first reply that the S3 will not support Mcard. It is a big miss on TiVo incs. part, no question


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Rebate_King said:


> I wonder how many threads RoyK has ruined? Its a real shame that the new owners of this forum just don't seem to care enough.


New owners?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

magnum68 said:


> ZeoTivo, why don't you shut up. You complain so much. Does your wife know you spend so much time on the computer?


If I have an opinion on something I have the where with-all to state it cogently and will debate those who disagree.

You offer flame bait and attempts to irk me through references to my direct family. A clear violation of forum rules as your post is ridiculous flame bait and is the very thing that a moderator should expunge and either warn you or ban you over. I have given up on reporting such posts though. Have fun with yourself.


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## magnum68 (Aug 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> If I have an opinion on something I have the where with-all to state it cogently and will debate those who disagree.
> 
> You offer flame bait and attempts to irk me through references to my direct family. A clear violation of forum rules as your post is ridiculous flame bait and is the very thing that a moderator should expunge and either warn you or ban you over. I have given up on reporting such posts though. Have fun with yourself.


It wouldn't be any fun without you sweet cheeks


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

Ok ok. Even while I personally find singling out a poster pretty childish, at the end of the day, the argument is all about why/if TivoPony has left the Forum or not. My money is on that he has not. He probably is reading every post here and is just waiting for this to pass over. A lot of these issues come & go. So, Zeo, I really appreciate and admire your dedication, passion and commitment, but yes, also you partake in setting the mood on this Forum. If we all give you the "yes, you are right" vote, can we settle it then?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> If I have an opinion on something I have the where with-all to state it cogently and will debate those who disagree.


Well, imagine if some vendor left because of your attitude -- you're certainly a bit in-your-face on the subject here in this thread, right?... would you appreciate being banned in order to get them to return? Or would you argue that if the vendor can't handle your requests, they should just ignore you...



Not everyone is good at putting their thoughts into words and sentences, or separating them from their passion. That doesn't make their questions or concerns any less valid.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mvnuenen said:


> If we all give you the "yes, you are right" vote, can we settle it then?


How about when people agree to act professionally and objectively. I can be right or wrong all day long and it wont matter one whit if the next time TiVoPony tries and have some dialog the same thing happens again. The only reason I 'singled' out anyone was to speak to what is going on and then to speak directly to RoyK. Others have done the same or worse as him. This to me is not about any one person, it is about the forum and its community.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> New owners?


When Capable Networks took over.


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> How about when people agree to act professionally and objectively... ...it is about the forum and its community.


AMEN! And I fully agree


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Not everyone is good at putting their thoughts into words and sentences, or separating them from their passion. That doesn't make their questions or concerns any less valid.


I would always be more professional with someone representing a company, unofficially or not, because they have the extra burden of not being able to tell me everything they may know due to strategic concerns within the company. I certainly would appreciate their public involvement and would not derail a thread they were participating with many others in. 
Trying to make it about me is simply not getting the basic problem this forum faces in keeping TiVo involvement active.


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

I think it is time for TivoPony to make a showing... <drum roll....>


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

mvnuenen said:


> ...the argument is all about why/if TivoPony has left the Forum or not. My money is on that he has not...


And you would be correct:

```
Last Activity: 04-27-2010 01:58 PM
```
Source


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Well this is a lot of noise.

OP: I think the answer is no.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Well this is a lot of noise.
> 
> OP: I think the answer is no.


WOW!! this thread is really helping people with their TP/TPXL, let change the subject to say the *health care bill *just signed into law.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Yeah, if I was a TiVo employee, I would certainly think twice about posting in a forum or thread with personal insults and jabbing back and forth. There is no benefit to TiVo to participate in such an environment where people are told to just shut up and bring up things from 4 years ago on prototype boxes. The last thing a retail corporation wants to do is being perceived as taking a side - and who can blame them.

My instructions (if I was a TiVo manager) would be read, but never speak for TiVo. You have a right to be silent, anything you say may be used against you and/ or TiVo.


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## sdzc (Sep 4, 2005)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Well this is a lot of noise.
> 
> OP: I think the answer is no.


Unfortunately, I think you are right. It is too bad that Pony or anyone else would leave due to one person.

Even just a little bit of info on something to make the Premiere more stable and user friendly would make me bite on it.


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## sdzc (Sep 4, 2005)

lessd said:


> WOW!! this thread is really helping people with their TP/TPXL, let change the subject to say the *health care bill *just signed into law.


No, as the OP, I forbid that!!  *I expressly forbid talking about how our country is spending our way to third world status.*


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## Thuye (Mar 21, 2010)

If Tivo does not want to participate in this forum, that&#8217;s their choice (although I think it&#8217;s a bad choice). The BEST way for Tivo to communicate with their Premiere customers is through their message service on every Premiere box. Yet, they choose not to address these problems in that forum either. In my opinion, that&#8217;s arrogance and/or greed on the part of Tivo. I spent 400 on the XL and another 200 on the lifetime for a device that does not function as advertised and Tivo (for all intent and purpose) ignores these issues? If Tivo really wanted to communicate with their Premiere customer base they would send a message to every Tivo Premiere. I&#8217;m not holding my breath. Remember the demise of Circuit City? I think Tivo is well down that path.


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## SafariKC (Mar 6, 2000)

At the head of this thread it mentioned that the place that TiVo is talking to customers right now in an open dialog is twitter. I decided to ask @tivodesign on Twitter directly what they are working on right now as their highest priorities.

@tivodesign I think we deserve to know what's important, how you are doing, and priorities to improve the Premiere. What can you share?

She quickly responded, unsurprisingly:

@SafariKC The team is very focused on stability and performance.

I'm awaiting a reply to my follow up which I just sent:

@tivodesign it's great to hear that the focus is stability and performance. Can you estimate when we might see the next milestone?

I would highly suggest folks that want a dialog with TiVo go to where they are currently talking in the wide open.. Twitter @tivodesign and report back here with any findings if you like.

I believe the best way to ask TiVo to participate here again in an open and regular way is to communicate with them where they are and show we can have a dialog without sniping. We don't have to agree with what folks say... But if we show no respect for each other when we do disagree, why would they want to participate here?

Thoughts? Anyone else have dialogs with them in Twitter or other forums that talk more to their open dialog about their priorities with regard to the Premiere platform?

KC


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

SafariKC said:


> At the head of this thread it mentioned that the place that TiVo is talking to customers right now in an open dialog is twitter. I decided to ask @tivodesign on Twitter directly what they are working on right now as their highest priorities.
> 
> @tivodesign I think we deserve to know what's important, how you are doing, and priorities to improve the Premiere. What can you share?
> 
> ...


I would not be surprised if the follow-up question was answered without a specific (or even general) date. A bug is a programming error that is not expected (obviously), so remedying such an error could mean a potential major rewrite of code, which in turn could cause a problem (and another rewrite) in another area. All of these changes have to be tested and retested. I think at best you may get an answer similar to "The goal is <insert time frame here>." Even that may cause backlash by some if the goal is not reached.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

We need a forum where every Tweet is like a first post in a new thread. Because some of them are just too good to pass up. Like this one:

wait. my new @tivo premiere has TWO cable tuners? zomg that is SO COOL! i keep discovering awesome new things about it.

April 28, 2010 8:47:29 PM
by lindsay


That's the level of user TiVo likes most.


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## sdzc (Sep 4, 2005)

You mean I can record TV with this new Tivo?

That is SO COOL, but where do I put the tape in?


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## SafariKC (Mar 6, 2000)

orangeboy said:


> I would not be surprised if the follow-up question was answered without a specific (or even general) date. A bug is a programming error that is not expected (obviously), so remedying such an error could mean a potential major rewrite of code, which in turn could cause a problem (and another rewrite) in another area. All of these changes have to be tested and retested. I think at best you may get an answer similar to "The goal is <insert time frame here>." Even that may cause backlash by some if the goal is not reached.


The realities of complicated or even hairy code getting in the way of the best of intentions are very true. In my experience, open dialog is the best way around that issue. It's our responsibility to understand that a goal is a goal... And might be missed... It's their responsibility (cuz we paid for it to live up to their expectations) to keep chugging on the code and work toward a solution for their platform as honestly and quickly as possible... And I believe they will. Their future depends on it.

Trust is a two way street... I trust they will do the right thing and get this right at some point, and hopefully soon... In return, they need to trust that we will be open to any unexpected changes if they are going to be transparent about updates. They certainly have had their lack of transparency here... But @tivodesign seems to want to help fix that.

If the c update is any indication, if they give a milestone goal... They will probably drop code to us around the timeframe mentioned... I'm cool with wiggle room, I just want to know they are chugging along with getting this puppy humming they way our previous years experiences prove they can.

I own this thing now... So maybe im crazy but I'm thinking positive thoughts . Hopefully the cautiously positive vibes will help move it along. A little good will never hurts right?


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## SafariKC (Mar 6, 2000)

dswallow said:


> That's the level of user TiVo likes most.


Lol... Probably very true the "magic" one card two tuner trick is probably proving to be a pleaser for the uninitiated. *wink*


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think official press release or product specs or product manual. See it there, then it should be in product or TiVo did not fulfill its part.


Very ironic. So you are in agreement with main beef RoyK has with TiVo and has posted in zilion threads? If I recall it right (without actually scanning the forum for RoyK postings) his main complaint is that his TiVo does not reliably record from analog channels as promised in product specs and product manual.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

nrc said:


> TiVolutionary served a forum of "TiVo fanboys." When someone was being a jerk he would say so and the general forum response would be, "Yes, that guy's being a jerk."
> 
> Today there is an army of jerks backing up every jerk's right to be a jerk. Jerks are "frustrated users" and anyone arguing for civility or defending TiVo's right to try to pursue a profitable business model is a "fan boy". Even TiVoShanan wasn't immune to the jerk horde.


Very true, percentage of "fan boys" dropped dramatically from 99.9% in early days to perhaps less than 10% today. But as dswallow mentioned before, TiVo is at least partially responsible for that. Regardless how you cut it, churn rate changed from less than 0.5% in early days to staggering 1.7% today. And in early days there was no commitment to hold you over for at least a year. There must be a reason why "fan boys" are jumping the ship, don't care or even turn into "jerks.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> Very ironic. So you are in agreement with main beef RoyK has with TiVo and has posted in zilion threads? If I recall it right (without actually scanning the forum for RoyK postings) his main complaint is that his TiVo does not reliably record from analog channels as promised in product specs and product manual.


 Not ironic at all. I am in agreement even that not having Mcard support on the S3 is a big miss - do 
you read the posts in a thread. However my contention has never been that TiVo can do no wrong and should always be fanned by us; my contention is that posters should not act like jerks and derail threads. 


samo said:


> There must be a reason why "fan boys" are jumping the ship, don't care or even turn into "jerks.


 maybe because TiVo grew up and lives in a more complicated place now, while some of the posters never grew up. Also we all know your bias toward DBS and especially DISH though you have never been a jerk and your bias does add diversity to the forum which is good.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dswallow said:


> wait. my new @tivo premiere has TWO cable tuners? zomg that is SO COOL! i keep discovering awesome new things about it.
> 
> That's the level of user TiVo likes most.


actually that is exactly the customer TiVo wants to get with the premiere. *new* customers is what is needed for profitability.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Also we all know your bias toward DBS and especially DISH though you have never been a jerk and your bias does add diversity to the forum which is good.


Only partially true now. I'm still biased toward DBS, but I actually dropped Dish. The last international channel I needed has moved to DirecTV so I actually pissed at Dish for not letting me know in advance that channel will disappear. Also, as far as my favorite DVR - it is hands down DirecTV HR2X. They improved so much that they are second to none. The new model HR24 even has DECA. And my bias toward DBS may change soon depending how 
this annoncement  will be implemented.


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## Thuye (Mar 21, 2010)

I understand that I could go to twitter (or wherever else Tivo is). I do not have to go to twitter or anywhere else to get messages about season passes, or lineup changes, etc. However, I should go there to find out what they are doing about a $400.00 device I bought from them does not work as advertised. That is preposterous, ridiculous and disrespectful. Tivo could communicate regarding the Premiere via their messaging service on every Tivo box. Tivo chooses not to. I would like to know why, but since Tivo will not communicate, I guess I will never know. I believe it is arrogance and greed. My biggest disappointment is that I bought lifetime service. I am not so sure Tivo will be around long enough for me to recoup the cost of lifetime&#8230;


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Thuye said:


> I understand that I could go to twitter (or wherever else Tivo is). I do not have to go to twitter or anywhere else to get messages about season passes, or lineup changes, etc. However, I should go there to find out what they are doing about a $400.00 device I bought from them does not work as advertised. That is preposterous, ridiculous and disrespectful. Tivo could communicate regarding the Premiere via their messaging service on every Tivo box. Tivo chooses not to. I would like to know why, but since Tivo will not communicate, I guess I will never know. I believe it is arrogance and greed. My biggest disappointment is that I bought lifetime service. I am not so sure Tivo will be around long enough for me to recoup the cost of lifetime


What is preposterous and ridiculous is that if you feel that strongly about how poorly your purchase is, that you have not returned it for your money back. Quit whining and do something about it or STFU.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> What is preposterous and ridiculous is that if you feel that strongly about how poorly your purchase is, that you have not returned it for your money back. Quit whining and do something about it or STFU.


If this had been directed at a TiVo rep it would fit my pattern of not being objective and being disrespectful. Aimed at a fellow forum member I ma of two minds. On one hand it just fosters the hostile nature of the forum, but on the other hand some folks in the thread feel it is alright to be this way.

Overall I think I fall on the side of it just fosters a hostile nature and the same message could be delivered more objectively, including the STFU.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

Thuye said:


> My biggest disappointment is that I bought lifetime service. I am not so sure Tivo will be around long enough for me to recoup the cost of lifetime


I bought my first lifetime back in 2000, and that one has definitely paid for itself many times over.

I think you're more than safe buying lifetime now. I've bought more lifetimes over the years as I've moved to the TiVo HD, and I'm sure they will also pay for themselves.

The reason I say "more than safe" is because TiVo has lots of cash in the bank from their patent win over DISH.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> If this had been directed at a TiVo rep it would fit my pattern of not being objective and being disrespectful. Aimed at a fellow forum member I ma of two minds. On one hand it just fosters the hostile nature of the forum, but on the other hand some folks in the thread feel it is alright to be this way.
> 
> Overall I think I fall on the side of it just fosters a hostile nature and the same message could be delivered more objectively, including the STFU.


Perhaps I have just momentarily succumbed to hostility and disrespect that surrounds me - As they say, when in Rome...

Or perhaps I don't want to be looked upon as hypocritical - I inferred to make oneself enjoy life more, one must do something to make it better, whether it return a device that one feels unsatisfactory about, or attempt to quell demonstrated ignorance in a forum one visits, hence my inclusion of "STFU" (which admittedly could have been put differently, but it sure felt good stating it!)...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> Perhaps I have just momentarily succumbed to hostility and disrespect that surrounds me - As they say, when in Rome...
> 
> Or perhaps I don't want to be looked upon as hypocritical - I inferred to make oneself enjoy life more, one must do something to make it better, whether it return a device that one feels unsatisfactory about, or attempt to quell demonstrated ignorance in a forum one visits, hence my inclusion of "STFU" (which admittedly could have been put differently, but it sure felt good stating it!)...


I had no problem with the basic message


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## Thuye (Mar 21, 2010)

orangeboy said:


> What is preposterous and ridiculous is that if you feel that strongly about how poorly your purchase is, that you have not returned it for your money back. Quit whining and do something about it or STFU.


Oh my, you seem upset. Calgon, take him away! BTW, I never indicated I am so dissatisfied that I intended to return the product. That however, does not excuse the poor almost non-existent communication on TiVo's part. Besides, if I had returned it I would have missed your charming post.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Don't worry about it, this is the usual response from the Tivo defenders - return it and get something else, STFU, go away. But we have to have some balance here without the personal attacks (for or against). Critical feedback should be part of that as long as it is respectful and not spammed across a bunch of threads.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Thuye said:


> I understand that I could go to twitter (or wherever else Tivo is). I do not have to go to twitter or anywhere else to get messages about season passes, or lineup changes, etc. However, I should go there to find out what they are doing about a $400.00 device I bought from them does not work as advertised. That is preposterous, ridiculous and disrespectful.


So they're providing information but you choose to be outraged because you don't want to bother taking advantage of it unless it's served up in the form of your choice?

It's already been demonstrated that TiVo can't afford to talk about anything here until it's a certainty. If they were here more regularly they wouldn't be telling us anything that they haven't already told us. Which would cause people to start attacking them. Which brings us back to doe.

They're working on speed and stability.

Send crash information to Margret.

They'll be retooling the rest of the interface in HD in coming releases.

What else do you want to know?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

slowbiscuit said:


> Don't worry about it, this is the usual response from the Tivo defenders - return it and get something else, STFU, go away. But we have to have some balance here without the personal attacks (for or against). Critical feedback should be part of that as long as it is respectful and not spammed across a bunch of threads.


Do you disagree that people who are dissatisfied should return the product? That's the clearest way to express your dissatisfaction to TiVo.


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## Thuye (Mar 21, 2010)

nrc said:


> So they're providing information but you choose to be outraged because you don't want to bother taking advantage of it unless it's served up in the form of your choice?
> 
> It's already been demonstrated that TiVo can't afford to talk about anything here until it's a certainty. If they were here more regularly they wouldn't be telling us anything that they haven't already told us. Which would cause people to start attacking them. Which brings us back to doe.
> 
> ...


I never said I was outraged. I am simply pointing out the poor customer service on the part of TiVo. As I have said before, yes, I could go twitter, or wherever else TiVo deems appropriate for them to communicate with their customers, but I should not have to seek out information on a product that fails to deliver as TiVo stated it would. If TiVo were interested in attempting to satisfy their Premiere customer base, they would communicate with us in the most effective manner. TiVo could send every Premiere owner a message. I do not need a dissertation on the problems the Premiere is having, just something saying we are working the issues or in the least acknowledging there is a problem. Instead, unless I go and SEEK out the information, they are mute. That is arrogant and unacceptable in my opinion.
One more point. You wrote, If they were here more regularly they wouldn't be telling us anything that they haven't already told us. Which would cause people to start attacking them. Last time I looked, when I receive a message on my TiVo, it is a one way communication vehicle, there is no option to reply. You are correct, they would not need to be on this forum because they would be communicating directly with each and every Premiere customer.


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## Thuye (Mar 21, 2010)

nrc said:


> Do you disagree that people who are dissatisfied should return the product? That's the clearest way to express your dissatisfaction to TiVo.


Absolutely I disagree I am extremely dissatisfied (at this point) with both my Premieres and I do not intend to return either of them.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Thuye said:


> Absolutely I disagree I am extremely dissatisfied (at this point) with both my Premieres and I do not intend to return either of them.


But are you going to recommend them to your friends ?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> If this had been directed at a TiVo rep it would fit my pattern of not being objective and being disrespectful. Aimed at a fellow forum member I ma of two minds. On one hand it just fosters the hostile nature of the forum, but on the other hand some folks in the thread feel it is alright to be this way.
> 
> Overall I think I fall on the side of it just fosters a hostile nature and the same message could be delivered more objectively, including the STFU.


Maybe you need to follow your own advice.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> Maybe you need to follow your own advice.


Really? - you want to be specific?


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## magnum68 (Aug 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Really? - you want to be specific?


Good night ZeoTivo. Don't let the bed bugs bite you.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

nrc said:


> Do you disagree that people who are dissatisfied should return the product? That's the clearest way to express your dissatisfaction to TiVo.


I think the Premiere is a piece of crap right now. But only in the sense of what it has been touted to be. It's certainly not worse than the TiVo HD model it replaces; and if you just turn off the HD menus, there's little wrong with it. It's actually even more stylish and compact than the TiVo HD (though the original Series 3 still has it beat).

I fully expect that eventually they'll fix the HD menu implementation. In other words, I consider the full crappiness of the Premiere to be the software right now.

I own a Premiere myself. And I don't intend to return it. I intend to keep it connected and continue trying to use it, mostly so I'll know when it's finally more "better" than it is "worse." I replaced a Series 2DT that I had around just for HME development; and the Premiere is currently located where I used to have an original Series 3, and that original Series 3 is presently just not connected to anything, but is still subscribed. I'll probably hook it up someplace, just because it may as well be connected than not, since I'm paying for it anyway. It's just not a big priority for me to worry about right now.

My main viewing still occurs with two original Series 3 units.

In the meantime, TiVo can be as aware of my opinion as they want to be... and I'm certain they're aware, as I'm certain they still visit and read this forum, even if they don't post much anymore.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

Thuye said:


> Absolutely I disagree I am extremely dissatisfied (at this point) with both my Premieres and I do not intend to return either of them.


Reminds me of a cartoon I saw many decades ago. Someone was carrying a campaign sign that said, more or less: "Vote for Joe Smith. The best of a bad lot."


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ferrumpneuma said:


> See what I mean by "lots of slack"?


 No I do not.
"needing to do more work"
"did not have an answer"
I would say that this is indeed a bad thing at product release and call that stating the situation without the use of drama and hyperbole. 


> Just don't base the decision on ANYTHING the company says publicly.:up::up::up:


 strawman argument. Specifically the statement I have made is "Do not base it on anything an employee says in an unofficial way. If *the company* says something publicly that is very different and likely in the form of a press release or other official form. Please do not change what I was saying.


> Just for being complete I think Tivo will fix the most egregious problems of the premiere because the problems are effecting 100% of boxes and they HAVE to make the premiere work.


so you agree with me but still want to argue with me. hmmm......


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Reminds me of a cartoon I saw many decades ago. Someone was carrying a campaign sign that said, more or less: "Vote for Joe Smith. The best of a bad lot."


But the Premiere is excellent. AT least all of mine are. I have no desire to use the SD menus any more and I hate using the S3 models now.
My Premieres are all my primary units now. And the more I use them the more I like them.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Reminds me of a cartoon I saw many decades ago ...


"many decades ago"??? And all this time I thought you were 16.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ferrumpneuma said:


> Zeo,
> 
> I'm not arguing in anger.


Neither am I, in fact I actually am not arguing with you at all but you keep bringing up stuff that was not even in my main point in this thread.


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## Thuye (Mar 21, 2010)

lessd said:


> But are you going to recommend them to your friends ?


At this point no. I do believe TiVo will get this all straightened out at some point. My concern in recommending the device to anyone is the viability of the company going forward. I believe TiVo has done some significant damage to the company and their name. In addition, I have to question their customer service from here on out as well. In my opinion, TiVo has demonstrated their desire for sales first leaving customer satisfaction and service considerably down toward the bottom of their concerns. So, I cant recommend purchasing a device that costs 2-4 hundred dollars from a company that Im not sure will be around


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## SafariKC (Mar 6, 2000)

Latest from Twitter by @tivodesign: 

@SafariKC There is a release in final testing stages right now, but i don't have a release date yet. Week or two?

Sounds like they are trucking along. 

KC


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## jmr50 (Dec 27, 2003)

This forum used to be a great point of customer engagement. But, over the years it moved from a group of people who engaged in constructive and productive criticism to one with a small but vocal minority of rude, entitled, and bitter posters who make it possible to discuss anything but whatever they're pissed about. It doesn't matter if you hate or love the product anymore, you have to wade through so much garbage just to participate, that TCF has become considerably less useful. Bad behavior of this type seem to be common online, but that doesn't make it acceptable and if we as a community tolerate it, it becomes the norm. It's unclear what people think they are accomplishing, but if their entire agenda in life is to tell Tivo Inc their source of frustration, they've probably failed since Tivo employees are discounting everything that comes from this place any more. Perhaps more to the point, this isn't a place where people who aren't Tivo employees can come and get useful assistance, build ideas, and share experiences in a community of enthusiasts. In all honesty, I rarely come here anymore -- the site is pretty much ruined. Thankfully, this is the internet, and it's easy for any of us to route around garbage if we find it. Still, it would be nice to see active, engaged moderation to make the tone here constructive instead of caustic. I know if I were Tivo, I'd be irritated with my brand and trademark being damaged by irresponsible forum ownership.


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## cranbers (Apr 2, 2010)

nrc said:


> Do you disagree that people who are dissatisfied should return the product? That's the clearest way to express your dissatisfaction to TiVo.


While the premiere is a buggy mess, and needs a lot of work. Taking money from tivo seems more logical (think service credit). Returning the product deprives you of what does work, and it doesn't give tivo the chance to fix it. Which one would certainly hope does happen.

Another service update is due around mid May according to the Tivo vp on Twitter.

So I got a few months of free service so I think they deserve some patients, if you are extremely upset by the quality of this product, call them up and let them know, they will do their best to make it right, at least they did for me


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## sdzc (Sep 4, 2005)

Well, I have to say I did not think this thread would go as far as it has but I do like the dialog and in the end I hope it helps Tivo too if they have been following it.

I did buy a Premiere as the Lifetime upgrade offer was pretty good, although I wish there would have been a double discount on both the unit and the service, but you cannot win them all. I am holding off on another unit and will bite the bullet on another truck roll from Comcast (if I order another one) to ensure that Tivo follows through on some sort of fix for the Premiere.

One of the last posts above this one seemed to indicate that there was something coming (via Twitter through the Tivo contact there).

At a very basic level, I think we all want the Premiere to be what it was suggested it was. A great, multi-tasking unit that enhances your multi-media experience. As this thread shows, some people have different levels of expectations and different levels of patience with a new product. 

In my personal opinion, I do think this sums it up:

- I cannot fault Tivo for the way they advertised the Premiere. Why not get the buzz going on a new model.
- I think their failure lies at the next level, which was either testing the unit before release to ensure it would be a smooth product launch or responding quickly to issues as they surfaced. I am not a computer programmer by any sense of the word, but I realize that one change can have cascading problems elsewhere and finding/fixing the issues can take a little time. 
- Do I trust that Tivo is working on and will fix the problem = yes. They are basically on a 4th Gen box now and I have to think they know what they are doing from this aspect. 

I hope that Tivo comes through and that my family thinks the Premiere is awesome. 

Please keep the conversation going and if we get lucky and a Tivo employee jumps into the fray, please be nice. 

Remember, we all want the same thing.

Us = Cool new Premiere unit doing everything it says it can do quickly.
Tivo = Happy customers, which potentially equals new happier customers.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I really like how it shows different options for me to get shows from. I forgot to setup a Season PAss for the show Mercy. So the Premiere popped up with the episode guide and where I could get the episode I missed from. A few clicks later and I'm downloading a 1080P24 version of the episode we missed. And with the $10 Amazon credit from TiVo, it didn't cost me anything.
Everyday I'm liking the Premiere more and more.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

gweempose said:


> "many decades ago"??? And all this time I thought you were 16.


You never know who you're interacting with. "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog."

Woof!


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