# Moca router dependency?



## mr19 (Dec 24, 2015)

Have Moca working in house with pretty simple setup. 

Both RG6 & CAT6 (from router) to Tivo Bolt. RG6 to Mini.

Tivo Bolt is set to establish Moca network. All works great. 

One thing that isn't clear to me is why when I turn off router does the Mini lose connection with the Bolt? They are both already assigned IPs (from router via DHCP) and should still be able to communicate on RG6.

Is the Bolt just acting as a passthrough wrt any ip traffic on the RG6? So traffic between Mini and Bolt would always pass through Bolt 2x (from Bolt to router back to Bolt then onto RG6 if necessary)?

TIA for any insight.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

Many TiVo operations require the box to access TiVo servers over the internet. However, I believe it should be possible for devices to communicate over a MoCA network that is disconnected from any LAN.

Here is an experiment for you to try. With everything working, use the Mini to stream a recorded show from the Bolt, then turn off the router (or just unplug the CAT6 cable from the Bolt) and see if the streaming continues. It may be possible for MoCA streaming to continue after the router shuts down, because the actual MoCA streaming data is all confined to the coax.

If it fails, what error message is displayed on the Mini?


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## mr19 (Dec 24, 2015)

When I reboot router (or unplug) the Mini almost immediately stops whatever show is on (so far it has been Live TV) and displays a dialog saying it has lost connection with the Tivo Bolt. Not at home right now so can't give exact wording. 

Mini resumes shortly after router comes back online. 

I'll try with a recorded show as well tonight but I was under the impression even the Live streaming (using a tuner from the Bolt) would be restricted to the Moca network as well.


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

mr19 said:


> Have Moca working in house with pretty simple setup.
> 
> Both RG6 & CAT6 (from router) to Tivo Bolt. RG6 to Mini.
> 
> ...


If I understand your setup properly, there wouldn't seem to be any need for traffic to go to or from your router when you are streaming live TV or recordings from Bolt to Mini.

The assigning of IP addresses to your Bolt and Mini from your router via DHCP ought to have nothing to do with Bolt-Mini streaming via MoCA, I would have thought. (You have checked to see whether each TiVo has a correct and unique IP address, right? See "Advanced Network Troubleshooting Tips.")

I'd really like to see a diagram of all your coaxial/MoCA and Ethernet cabling and devices, as there would seem to be a joker in this deck!


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## mr19 (Dec 24, 2015)

Pretty basic setup. Hopefully this makes sense.

Outside house:
RG6 => POE Filter => 1x2 splitter

Inside house:
First output of splitter to modem
Second output of splitter to another 1x2 splitter with 1 run to Bolt & other to Mini.

Bolt is connnected with CAT6 via router connected to modem.

Have looked at assigned addresses via router interface and they are assigned different addresses. Would think this would cause Mini to not work at all if they had dup addresses -- but everything works fine when router is up.


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

mr19 said:


> Pretty basic setup. Hopefully this makes sense.
> 
> Outside house:
> RG6 => POE Filter => 1x2 splitter
> ...


You might try moving the POE filter to just before the splitter whose outputs go to your TiVo units. That would, I believe, isolate your MoCA traffic from your cable modem, which does not need to be part of your MoCA network. Also, what make and model is your modem? Some modems are MoCA-capable, which might contribute to your problem if yours is, since your modem is Ethernet-connected to your router.

Do you know about this thread?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10744186

If you ask your question there, you might get a better answer ...


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## mr19 (Dec 24, 2015)

epstewart said:


> You might try moving the POE filter to just before the splitter whose outputs go to your TiVo units. That would, I believe, isolate your MoCA traffic from your cable modem, which does not need to be part of your MoCA network. Also, what make and model is your modem? Some modems are MoCA-capable, which might contribute to your problem if yours is, since your modem is Ethernet-connected to your router.
> 
> Do you know about this thread?
> 
> ...


Forgot to click submit earlier. Modem is a SB6141 which I believe has a MoCA filter but is not MoCA-capable.

I did see that thread prior to deciding to go Tivo/MoCA. Will head over and see what I can find out.

I appreciate you taking the time to help.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Why is the router being turned off or rebooted. That is not normal. The router should be able to run without needing to be rebooted except for a firmware update.


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## mr19 (Dec 24, 2015)

aaronwt said:


> Why is the router being turned off or rebooted. That is not normal. The router should be able to run without needing to be rebooted except for a firmware update.


I have scheduled 3:30am reboots but otherwise it is on 24x7.

I have been flashing different firmware, also with some settings the router reboots when you apply the changes.

Regardless, it doesn't make sense to me that the Mini would lose cxn with the Bolt with router goes down (for whatever reason).


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

mr19 said:


> Forgot to click submit earlier. Modem is a SB6141 which I believe has a MoCA filter but is not MoCA-capable.
> 
> I did see that thread prior to deciding to go Tivo/MoCA. Will head over and see what I can find out.
> 
> I appreciate you taking the time to help.


Yes, the Arris/Motorola SB6141 modem has a MoCA or POE filter, according to what I read online, and is otherwise not MoCA-enabled. So I don't see how it could be implicated in your problem, after all.


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

mr19 said:


> I have scheduled 3:30am reboots but otherwise it is on 24x7.
> 
> I have been flashing different firmware, also with some settings the router reboots when you apply the changes.
> 
> Regardless, it doesn't make sense to me that the Mini would lose cxn with the Bolt with router goes down (for whatever reason).


More information needed ... Do you have your router set to reboot at 3:30am every night? Are you actively watching your Mini when that takes place, so that you witness the connection to the Bolt dropping, or is it rather that you discover the dropped connection later on somehow? Does the Mini-Bolt connection re-establish itself automatically at some point, and if so at what point does that occur? And if you have to do something manually to re-establish the connection, what do you have to do?

I'm wondering if the timing of your router reboots isn't interfering with the times at which the TiVo units want to "phone home" to get new guide info, new software updates, etc. Under Network Settings you can see when the last network connection was attempted and whether it succeeded. The information shown there is admittedly sketchy, but you might be able to find out if my hypothesis is right if you look at the info at 3:30 or so in the morning.


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## mr19 (Dec 24, 2015)

epstewart said:


> More information needed ... Do you have your router set to reboot at 3:30am every night? Are you actively watching your Mini when that takes place, so that you witness the connection to the Bolt dropping, or is it rather that you discover the dropped connection later on somehow? Does the Mini-Bolt connection re-establish itself automatically at some point, and if so at what point does that occur? And if you have to do something manually to re-establish the connection, what do you have to do?
> 
> I'm wondering if the timing of your router reboots isn't interfering with the times at which the TiVo units want to "phone home" to get new guide info, new software updates, etc. Under Network Settings you can see when the last network connection was attempted and whether it succeeded. The information shown there is admittedly sketchy, but you might be able to find out if my hypothesis is right if you look at the info at 3:30 or so in the morning.


Guess I should have been more clear. The router reboots were just recently added when I decided to tryout a different firmware on my AC68R (Tomato Shibby instead of Merlin). The new firmware has been more stable/consistent and I may turn off that reboot in next few days. Didn't think of checking if the timing conflicts with the Tivo schedule downloads though, will see what I can find there.

The firmware change was done for reasons completely unrelated to the Tivo/MoCA stuff and the Mini issues were seen prior to that when I would change a setting on the router requiring a reboot.

Right now if I pull the power plug on the router the Mini will immediately pop a dialog saying it lost connection with the Bolt. Plug it back in and it will recover.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

mr19 said:


> Right now if I pull the power plug on the router the Mini will immediately pop a dialog saying it lost connection with the Bolt. Plug it back in and it will recover.


I can understand how power-cycling the router could interfere with tivo stuff, since they would get some sort of reset messages from the router as it powers up.

Have you tried unplugging the CAT6, rather than power-cycling the router?


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## mr19 (Dec 24, 2015)

snerd said:


> I can understand how power-cycling the router could interfere with tivo stuff, since they would get some sort of reset messages from the router as it powers up.
> 
> Have you tried unplugging the CAT6, rather than power-cycling the router?


I'll try the CAT6 tonight. But Mini loses connection when I turn off / unplug the router. Recover when I plug it back in.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mr19 said:


> Right now if I pull the power plug on the router the Mini will immediately pop a dialog saying it lost connection with the Bolt. Plug it back in and it will recover.


I can understand why you are question this. The way you have it wired it doesn't appear you connection between your Bolt and Mini runs through your Router.

In my Ethernet setup I have a Roamio, Bolt and Premiere all connect to the same switch if the router goes down they all still see each other and can stream between each other (least that is how I remember it working).

I am assuming the same thing happens if you pull the Ethernet plug out of the Bolt? This would seem to indicate a router in necessary for a MoCA network to stay up - or that either your Bolt or Mini drops it's IP address as soon as the router goes down - both of which sound funny to me.

Perhaps other people could test and report back.

*Edit:* I just pulled the plug on my router and as I remembered had no issues streaming content between my Bolt, Roamio and Premiere which are all plugged into the same switch.


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> I am assuming the same thing happens if you pull the Ethernet plug out of the Bolt? This would seem to indicate a router in necessary for a MoCA network to stay up - or that either your Bolt or Mini drops it's IP address as soon as the router goes down - both of which sound funny to me.
> 
> Perhaps other people could test and report back.


Good idea, to try pulling the Ethernet plug out of the Bolt as it's streaming a recording to the Mini. I would not want to bet one way or another whether that would interrupt the streaming session.

I would like to be able to test and report back, but my Verizon FiOS setup does not involve having my Bolt or Roamio Plus create a MoCA network via an Ethernet cable to my Verizon-provided router, which is MoCA-enabled and itself creates the MoCA network.


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

mr19 said:


> I'll try the CAT6 tonight. But Mini loses connection when I turn off / unplug the router. Recover when I plug it back in.


So the recovery is automatic when the router comes back online. it's beginning to look like this is standard operating procedure for a Mini-TiVo MoCA connection, at least when the Mini is being fed by a Bolt. We don't know whether the same thing happens with a Roamio as the driver of the Mini. But it looks like maybe the Bolt is exquisitely sensitive to whether the router, to which it is Ethernet-wired and with which it creates the MoCA network, goes down. Perhaps no one has ever noticed this because few have ever had someone in the household watching the Mini during a router power cycle, which is usually something that happens pretty rarely.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

I've done some experiments. I have a Roamio Plus that sits right next to my cable modem and WiFi/router, so I use the Roamio to create a MoCA network that attaches to a Mini, and an Actiontec ECB2500C tied to an old 2-tuner Premiere. The Mini is set to borrow tuners from the Roamio.

I started live TV on the Mini and disconnected the CAT6 at the Roamio. Mini halted with "can't find Roamio".

Started streaming a recorded program from the Roamio to the Mini and repeated the experiment. Same result.

Started streaming a recorded program from the *Premiere,* then disconnected CAT6 at the Roamio, with no interruption of the Mini. Stopped the Mini with the TiVo button to return to TiVo Central, and the Mini had a message on the TiVo Central screen indicating that it can't connect to the Roamio. I could still use "My Shows" to access the Premiere and stream recorded shows.

This proves that a MoCA network can stream from a TiVo to a Mini without internet access to TiVo servers. It also proves that a MoCA network does not require a connection to a LAN/router in order to function.

I think it is odd that the Mini can't see the Roamio, since both are still attached on the MoCA network. For whatever reason, it appears that a TiVo which *was* acting as a MoCA bridge, but loses the LAN connection, will not stream on MoCA even though the MoCA network is fully functional.

Unfortunately, a Mini can't borrow a tuner from a 2-tuner Premiere. It would be interesting to see if a Mini can still do live TV on a MoCA network that can't reach the internet.


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

snerd said:


> I've done some experiments. I have a Roamio Plus that sits right next to my cable modem and WiFi/router, so I use the Roamio to create a MoCA network that attaches to a Mini, and an Actiontec ECB2500C tied to an old 2-tuner Premiere. The Mini is set to borrow tuners from the Roamio.
> 
> I started live TV on the Mini and disconnected the CAT6 at the Roamio. Mini halted with "can't find Roamio".
> 
> ...


Nice work, snerd! This confirms that mr19's original post is not a fluke. When a Mini is streaming live TV or a recording from a TiVo that is creating a MoCA network, and the router goes down, so does the streaming session. But when a different TiVo is feeding a recording to the Mini, the streaming is uninterrupted when the router goes down.

If we assume that this behavior by the TiVo box that creates the MoCA network was intended by TiVo Inc., it would be interesting to know why. Or, it just may be a bug or an unintended feature of the way the MoCA functionality has been implemented ...


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

epstewart said:


> If we assume that this behavior by the TiVo box that creates the MoCA network was intended by TiVo Inc., it would be interesting to know why. Or, it just may be a bug or an unintended feature of the way the MoCA functionality has been implemented ...


We know from other threads that a MoCA connected TiVo with nothing connected to the ethernet port will automatically convert to "MoCA + ethernet" simply by connecting a device (or a switch with multiple devices) to the ethernet port. This suggests to me that TiVo is trying to make their hardware as useful as possible, as opposed to locking it down so that users can only do things The Approved Way (tm). Another example is their ongoing support for backdoor codes like SPS30S thaat enables instant 30-second skips.

Based on that, I'm guessing this is a bug rather than intended behavior.

One other possibility: TiVo servers are a little flaky at the moment (N18 errors), so it is possible that this is a side-effect. I think this is low probability, but worth doing more experiments when their servers are better behaved.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

snerd said:


> I've done some experiments. I have a Roamio Plus that sits right next to my cable modem and WiFi/router, so I use the Roamio to create a MoCA network that attaches to a Mini, and an Actiontec ECB2500C tied to an old 2-tuner Premiere. The Mini is set to borrow tuners from the Roamio.
> 
> I started live TV on the Mini and disconnected the CAT6 at the Roamio. Mini halted with "can't find Roamio".
> 
> ...


Interesting results. Would you mind do a few more tests?


Once you have pulled the Network cable from your Roamio can you see if the Roamio can see & stream from your Premiere. 
If the Roamio can not see or stream from the Premiere can you see if the Roamio still has an IP address.


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

snerd said:


> We know from other threads that a MoCA connected TiVo with nothing connected to the ethernet port will automatically convert to "MoCA + ethernet" simply by connecting a device (or a switch with multiple devices) to the ethernet port. This suggests to me that TiVo is trying to make their hardware as useful as possible, as opposed to locking it down so that users can only do things The Approved Way (tm). Another example is their ongoing support for backdoor codes like SPS30S thaat enables instant 30-second skips.
> 
> Based on that, I'm guessing this is a bug rather than intended behavior.
> 
> One other possibility: TiVo servers are a little flaky at the moment (N18 errors), so it is possible that this is a side-effect. I think this is low probability, but worth doing more experiments when their servers are better behaved.


I think it's a bug, too, and I doubt it's a side-effect of problems with TiVo servers, as I don't think the instantaneous termination of a TiVo-to-Mini streaming session when the router goes down, as described by those posting here, would be likely to happen if a distant TiVo server were involved.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

epstewart said:


> I think it's a bug, too, and I doubt it's a side-effect of problems with TiVo servers, as I don't think the instantaneous termination of a TiVo-to-Mini streaming session when the router goes down, as described by those posting here, would be likely to happen if a distant TiVo server were involved.


Should be able to test this by unplugging incoming cable to router. Home network would still be up but Internet would be down.


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> Should be able to test this by unplugging incoming cable to router. Home network would still be up but Internet would be down.


Do you mean the incoming Ethernet cable to the router from the TiVo, or do you mean the incoming coax cable to the cable modem?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

epstewart said:


> Do you mean the incoming Ethernet cable to the router from the TiVo, or do you mean the incoming coax cable to the cable modem?


In coming coax cable to cable modem. Or if you have DSL like I do incoming telephone line to DSL modem. Or if you have a stand alone Router incoming WAN cable (from Modem). What ever line hooks your router to the Internet. By pulling that cable your LAN (Local Area Network) stays up, but there is no access to the Internet.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

atmuscarella said:


> Interesting results. Would you mind do a few more tests?
> 
> 
> Once you have pulled the Network cable from your Roamio can you see if the Roamio can see & stream from your Premiere.
> If the Roamio can not see or stream from the Premiere can you see if the Roamio still has an IP address.


The Premiere errors out when trying to access the Roamio when the Roamio has the CAT6 cable removed.

The Roamio says "MoCA connection" and still has an IP address.

After plugging the CAT6 back in, the connection changes to "MoCA + Ethernet" and the IP address *changed*, and everything worked again. My original configuration used DHCP to get IP addresses.

I switched to a fixed IP address on the Roamio, using the one that works. This "failed" with an N18 error due to TiVo server flakiness, but now the IP address doesn't change when the CAT6 cable is disconnected from the Roamio, and *everything works completely over MoCA*. The Mini can borrow tuners from the Roamio and stream recordings, and the Premiere can see the Roamio and access everything that it should.

*Important finding:* the auto-switch between "MoCA connection" and "MoCA + Ethernet" can cause the IP address to change, if the TiVo is configured to use DHCP. Using a fixed IP address will prevent this from happening.

Before setting the fixed IP address, I also verified that everything works fine when breaking the WAN link between the cable modem and router. Kind of moot now that we know a workaround that keeps everything working with only MoCA.

I suspect that a working system with fixed IP addresses would continue to work after replacing the main router with a simple switch, but I can't test that easily on my system.


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> In coming coax cable to cable modem. Or if you have DSL like I do incoming telephone line to DSL modem. Or if you have a stand alone Router incoming WAN cable (from Modem). What ever line hooks your router to the Internet. By pulling that cable your LAN (Local Area Network) stays up, but there is no access to the Internet.


I can't test this because my Verizon FiOS router creates my MoCA network, and if I disconnected the coax from it, my result would say little about what the OP's result would be.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

snerd said:


> ...
> *Important finding:* the auto-switch between "MoCA connection" and "MoCA + Ethernet" can cause the IP address to change, if the TiVo is configured to use DHCP. Using a fixed IP address will prevent this from happening.


I suspected it would have something to do with the Roamio Pro/Plus's IP - I would consider this a bug no reason for the IP to change that quickly when the router goes off line. At least you guys have a pretty straight forward work around as setting a fixed IP isn't difficult if the person knows the IP range their router is set to use for DHCP.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

atmuscarella said:


> I suspected it would have something to do with the Roamio Pro/Plus's IP


Thanks for the tip, nice catch.



> I would consider this a bug no reason for the IP to change that quickly when the router goes off line. At least you guys have a pretty straight forward work around as setting a fixed IP isn't difficult if the person knows the IP range their router is set to use for DHCP.


Agreed. I think this also explains why a TiVo has to "phone home" before Minis can set the TiVo as a host -- I suspect they've programmed it so that any TiVo/Mini must know the IP address of any other box that it will interact with, and this data is ultimately stored on TiVo servers.

They should alter the software so that there is only ever a single IP address associated with a TiVo, without regard to MoCA/Ethernet connectivity.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

snerd said:


> Thanks for the tip, nice catch.
> 
> Agreed. I think this also explains why a TiVo has to "phone home" before Minis can set the TiVo as a host -- I suspect they've programmed it so that any TiVo/Mini must know the IP address of any other box that it will interact with, and this data is ultimately stored on TiVo servers.
> .


I changed the IP address of my 3 TiVos and all (4) Minis, the Minis pick up the TiVo they should have without any call home, when you first set up a Mini both your TiVo and Mini must make 1 to 2 home calls.


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## mr19 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks for all the digging. So the theory is setting static IP addresses should take care of this? Right now I have them using DHCP MAC-assigned addresses. 

Will switch to static tonight once everyone is asleep and I can't get in trouble for breaking things and see how things work out.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

mr19 said:


> Thanks for all the digging. So the theory is setting static IP addresses should take care of this? Right now I have them using DHCP MAC-assigned addresses.
> 
> Will switch to static tonight once everyone is asleep and I can't get in trouble for breaking things and see how things work out.


You could just see which IP addresses are currently being used, and set the fixed IP address to match. Very little risk of anything breaking.


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## mr19 (Dec 24, 2015)

snerd said:


> You could just see which IP addresses are currently being used, and set the fixed IP address to match. Very little risk of anything breaking.


Good point. Then again I also didn't expect to break anything before so while I"ll follow that route, I'll wait until the TVs are all mine.


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