# Fee-less DTVPal HDTV DVR now shipping -- first competition for TiVo



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

_Last updated: December 4 @ 3pm_

The "DTVPal DVR" is now available and shipping from dtvpal.com. This dual-tuner, HDTV DVR is $249 after a $50 instant rebate. There are *no subscriptions*, *no monthly fees* and there are *no advertisements*.

The Dish Network DTVPal DVR is a dual-tuner HDTV DVR that supports SD and HD channels from an off-air antenna. Satellite and cable (QAM) are *not* supported. The DTVPal DVR allows you to watch one HD channel while you record another; it will record two different HD or SD shows while you watch a third, previously recorded show. You can also use pause (up to 1hr), instant replay, and rewind on live programming. Recording capacity is 30 HD hours and 150 SD hours with a 250GB hard drive. The bundled IR remote includes buttons for 30 sec skip, 10 second replay, and supports four speeds of fast forward and reverse, slow motion, and frame-by-frame advance.

The DTVPal DVR features an electronic program guide (EPG) with 8-days of program information from TV Guide On Screen (TVGOS), when available. TVGOS is distributed by CBS affiliates across the country, and should be available to 90-95% of the U.S. population by February. You can check here to determine whether TVGuide service is currently available in your area. If TVGuide service is not available, the DTVPal will display the more limited program information -- typically 24-72 hours worth -- offered by your local broadcasters via PSIP.

The DTVPal DVR supports keyword search and closed captions, but lacks many features found on more modern TiVo, DirecTV, and Dish Network satellite DVRs. Features absent from the product include dual channel buffers, saving from buffer, external storage expansion, multi-room viewing, remote scheduling via web and mobile phone, picture-in-picture, picture-in-guide, and guide filters / favorites. Most notably, the DTVPal DVR relies on time-based recording rather than name-based recording; *it lacks season passes and the ability to record only new episodes and ignore repeats*.

All recording on the DTVPal DVR is performed with VCR-like timers, created manually or set automatically through a program guide selection. When you select a show in the program guide, you are given the option to (1) create a reminder, or (2) schedule a recording in that time slot: once, daily, weekly, or M-F. You have the same options when selecting a show with keyword search. A list of all existing timers is shown on the DVR -> Daily Schedule screen, where you can cancel, edit, or add a new timer for a single or repeating (daily, weekly, M-F) recording in a specific time slot.

The DTVPal DVR has RF, composite (RCA), component, and HDMI video outputs; it has analog stereo and optical (S/PDIF) audio outputs. Output via component and HDMI is selectable 480p/720p/1080i through a menu. All outputs are active simultaneously and the box will downconvert HD channels through SD outputs for older televisions. There is no Firewire output, and no way to directly download recordings from the DVR.

Despite initial reports to the contrary, USB external drive expansion is *not* yet supported. Software updates to improve and expand functionality will be made available for download over the Internet using the DTVPal's ethernet connection -- in fact, the first software update with minor fixes is already available for download.

The DTVPal DVR has a 90-day warranty. *All sales are final**.* Dish Network does not give refunds on the DTVPal DVR, although it will replace defective units if you are within the 90-day warranty period.

Product Manual (PDF)

Detailed Specifications

_Here's an internal shot of the DTVPal DVR, courtesy of hignfy._


 STMicroelectronics STi7109 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC, and VC-1 decoders
 160MB DDR400 SDRAM (2x Elpida D5116AFTA, 2x Hynix HY5DU281622FTP-D43)
 16MB Spansion S99-50052 Flash IC (for system software)
 250GB Western Digital WD2500AAJS SATA hard drive
 2x MicroTune MT2131 tuners
 2x AMD Theater316 demodulators (218T316ZLA12GP)
 A/V Inputs: 1x coax (split internally for both tuners)
 A/V Outputs: HDMI, component, composite, coax; optical digital, stereo
 10/100Mbps Ethernet
 1x USB
 Dish IR remote

Frequently Asked Questions by TiVo Users


*How does the "time-based recording" used by the DTVPal DVR compare to the Season Passes on a TiVo?*

The DTVPal DVR uses time-based recording, which records by setting a single or repeating timer for a *specific day* at a *specific time*. When you create a recording for _House_ on the DTVPal DVR, it creates a repeating recording for Tuesday 8-9pm on FOX. It always records that same Tuesday 8-9pm slot regardless of whether _House_ is showing that week, regardless of whether it is a new or old episode, and regardless of whether it is a special extended episode that runs longer than an hour. If FOX decides to show an episode of _House_ on Wednesday, or at 9pm, then you'll miss that episode -- unless you modify your timer. If FOX decides to show a special extended length episode, such as a two-hour special on Tuesday from 8-10pm, then you'll only get the first hour -- unless you modify your timer.

TiVo users do not have to worry about such things. The TiVo records programs by *name* rather than time; this is also referred to as "name-based recording." When you create a season pass for _House_ on a TivoHD, it doesn't matter what time or day of the week that program is showing. The season pass records _House_ whenever it shows, with the correct program length for that episode, even when the day, time, and/or program length changes. The DVR does this by continually searching the guide data for the show in the background, and adjusting its record schedule as needed.

TiVo gives you the option to record only new episodes and ignore repeats. The TiVo does this by looking at the program information to determine whether the episode's "original airdate" is the same as the current date, and whether the program carries a repeat flag. The TiVo also keeps a record of all programs and episodes recorded in the past 28 days, so as not to re-record the same episode in that time, even when it was watched and deleted weeks before. The TiVo neatly organizes multiple episodes of the same series into folders to minimize clutter.

*Can you download or transfer recordings from the DTVPal DVR to a computer?*

No. The DTVPal DVR has no Firewire output, and no way to download or transfer recordings via USB or ethernet, as on TiVo.

*Can the DTVPal DVR play video, pictures, or music stored on a network drive? How about a USB drive?*

No. The DTVPal DVR will not play anything except the off-air recordings stored on its internal drive.

*Can you transfer recordings between two DTVPal DVRs?*

No. The DTVPal DVR does not support any form of multi-room functionality.

*Can I upgrade the DTVPal DVR's hard drive to increase storage capacity?*

Based on early reports, you *can* upgrade (replace) the internal hard drive to increase capacity. On the DTVPal DVR, system software is stored on internal flash memory, separate from the hard drive. When you install a new hard drive, the DTVPal DVR boots from flash memory and automatically formats the new drive for use during the usual "Loading Please Wait" start-up screen. When boot up is complete, the full capacity of the new drive is available. Nothing else must be done to use a new hard drive or take advantage of the extra capacity.

Thus far, the Dish DTVPal DVR _appears_ to support a maximum of *500GB* internal storage. Users successfully replaced the stock drive with 160GB and 500GB drives, but were unable to use 750GB and 1TB drives. Upon boot up with the 750GB and 1TB drives, the DTVPal DVR displayed a message saying an error had occurred, and then rebooted; the same thing happened upon reboot.









DTVPal DVR with 500GB drive upgrade

Until more upgrade reports are in, users should be hesitant to perform an internal drive upgrade. If you insist on performing an upgrade now, you should probably stick with a maximum of 500GB until larger drives can be made to work. *Be aware that any drive upgrade will void your warranty. Dish Network does not provide technical support for upgraded DTVPal DVRs, and makes no guarantee about the reliability or operation of units with upgraded hard drives.*

Instructions to remove the cover, courtesy of AVS member otaviewer:

 Unplug the power cord.
 Remove the smart card from the front.
 Remove the visible screw on the case's bottom.
 Pry off the rubber pad on the case's bottom which is closest to the green and yellow RCA jack; remove the screw found underneath.
 Pry off the rubber pad on the case's bottom which is diagonal from the one just pried off; remove the screw found underneath.
 Carefully use a flat screwdriver to slightly release the two tabs on the back of the case.
 Use a flashlight to locate slots on the bottom of the case where an object can be stuck to unlatch the cover.
 Unbend a heavy duty 3" long cotter pin -- the kind obtainable from a hardware store.
 Insert one end of the cotter pin straightly into the four slots in the bottom of the case-- _excluding_ those where a green circuit board is visible -- to the point where they stop on their own, and bend slightly to unlatch. Be careful not to bend too far.
 Apply a slight force to manually separate the top of the case from the bottom.

*Where can I find an online version of the manual?*

The DTVPal DVR manual is available for download from the product's web site in PDF format. Direct PDF link here.

Pictures

_Credit to AVS member akbungle for the following three images._









Three guide settings determine how much information is displayed: medium text, large text, and small text (shown). Channels can be renamed and removed.



























Credit for this image to rustycruiser. More unboxing photos can be found in this post.









Credit for this image to Crave.









Credit for this image to navychop.

More pictures of the DVRPal DVR in-use can be found in this post. Note these screenshots were "washed out" by a camera flash.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Before people take issue with my "first competition for TiVo" comment, I mean that with regard to standalone HDTV DVRs that you can buy.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> Before people take issue with my "first competition for TiVo" comment, I mean that with regard to standalone HDTV DVRs that you can buy.


Given the limited (non-existent?) feature set this unit doesn't compete with Tivo or Moxi. I think this product is designed for VCR users who want the ability to record HDTV.

I understand the reason for not including a QAM tuner, any cablco DVR blows this away.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

lew said:


> Given the limited (non-existent?) feature set this unit doesn't compete with Tivo or Moxi. I think this product is designed for VCR users who want the ability to record HDTV.
> 
> I understand the reason for not including a QAM tuner, any cablco DVR blows this away.


Functionality on this product is very similar to the old TiVo Basic service, except you get seven days of guide data instead of three, provided TVGOS is available in your area.


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

From the order page:

https://customersupport.dishnetwork.com/builddish/dtvpal/dtvPalLand.do

"Orders placed after December 6th, 2008 have an expected ship date of January 12th, 2009. "

* (Last I heard the Moxi DVR is $799.00)


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> Functionality on this product is very similar to the old TiVo Basic service, except you get seven days of guide data instead of three, provided TVGOS is available in your area.


I thought tivo basic service was only offered to the models with integrated DVD.

Sorry but I don't think you "compete" with a version of a product that's not currently being marketed.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lew said:


> Given the limited (non-existent?) feature set this unit doesn't compete with Tivo or Moxi. I think this product is designed for VCR users who want the ability to record HDTV.
> 
> I understand the reason for not including a QAM tuner, any cablco DVR blows this away.


actually I have a friend who was almost enticed by a TiVo HD for OTA. He wants no cable TV but his family likes to watch OTA. So a low priced unit like this is perfect for them. I do not see this as direct competition for TiVo but instead a good product that shows why DVRs in general should be used by more people. I see this a a good thing for all DVR companies.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

lew said:


> I thought tivo basic service was only offered to the models with integrated DVD.
> 
> Sorry but I don't think you "compete" with a version of a product that's not currently being marketed.


The fact that the DTVPal DVR has far fewer features doesn't change the fact that it is a dual-tuner HDTV DVR. The TivoHD is a dual-tuner HDTV DVR. When people look to see what standalone HDTV DVR they can buy for off-air signals from an antenna, they've got two choices: the DTVPal DVR and the TivoHD. Both cost $250 online.

The TivoHD offers superior recording and search functionality with reliable guide information available to all users, but it also requires a subscription. The Dish DVR has far fewer features, and full guide information is not available in all areas, but it requires no subscription. Both involve trade offs, and I think it is a bit delusional to think that these products don't or won't compete for many of the same customers.

We've already seen members on the AVSForum that planned to buy TivoHD, but who opted instead to order the DTVPal DVR when they learned they could get the same core functionality -- a program guide, trickplay on liveTV, with the ability to record two different HD channels at the same time -- for the same price, but with no monthly fees or advertising. Users with past TiVo experience may not be so easily swayed, but for those that have never used a TiVo, the full benefits of the subscription service are not quite so obvious.


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## johnny99 (Nov 10, 2008)

I think there is a demand for products like this. Many (most?) cities are now getting 50+ digital OTA channels. Many people are reluctant to buy Tivo because of the monthly fee. If you're just recording a half dozen of your favorite shows every week, you don't need any more than basic features.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

If I were looking for OTA only then HTPC would be a better option for me, though I can understand the convenience of a standalone unit for a lot of people.


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

I think this will appeal to those that want something simple, like the VCR. With the digital transition, this may be a good product, depending on its performance. It is a viable competitor for TiVo in its niche. Are there any other OTA-capable DVRs on the market?


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

This has potential as a VCR replacement and the lack of a subscription would be a huge advantage to many. Sure, it's not a TiVo or a sat/cableco replacement, but it has a place in the market for non-technicaly minded people who want a little better quality and convenience over video tape - and there are still a lot of those people out there.

I would expect most on this board to slam it, but they are TiVo/techno-minded and this is not the box for them.


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> The fact that the DTVPal DVR has far fewer features doesn't change the fact that it is a dual-tuner HDTV DVR. The TivoHD is a dual-tuner HDTV DVR. When people look to see what standalone HDTV DVR they can buy for off-air signals from an antenna, they've got two choices: the DTVPal DVR and the TivoHD. Both cost $250 online.


The TiVoHD is more like an HDTV DMR and this is an HDTV DVR. Does this even connect to the internet or have ethernet?

And where is the S-video out. Man forget it


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

TonyTheTiger said:


> ...it has a place in the market for non-technicaly minded people who want a little better quality and convenience over video tape - and there are still a lot of those people out there.


I agree, this is a perfect product for a market that is a lot bigger than most people realize.

Problem is, how to get it in front of those people so they buy them. Retail placement will be key I think.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

berkshires said:


> The TiVoHD is more like an HDTV DMR and this is an HDTV DVR. Does this even connect to the internet or have ethernet?


Yes, it connects to the ethernet. Software updates are available via the Internet (using ethernet), just like the TiVo.

In the past, Dish Network indicated plans to make its IP VOD service available to the DTVPal DVR using ethernet, but nothing has been said about that recently.



mahermusic said:


> Isn't this a lot like how VCR plus is (used to be??? Is VCR Plus still around?)


VCR Plus relied on TVGOS information supplied by analog PBS stations. Now that information (and more of it) is supplied by CBS via digital broadcast. This information is downloaded by the DTVPal DVR and integrated into a guide of Dish Network's own design.

Dish Network either pays a license fee to use this program information, or they received a license as part of their previous settlement with Gemstar. This information is not as comprehensive as what you get with TiVo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> We've already seen people on the AVSForum who were planning (or thinking about) getting a TivoHD, but opted to order the DTVPal DVR when they learned they could get the same core functionality -- trickplay on liveTV, with the ability to record two different HD channels at the same time -- for the same price, but with no monthly fees or advertising.


well duh - if you do not want to record cable and only care about OTA, then you very likely do not see 300$ of value in TTG/MRV. For OTA only users this is well in the no brainer camp. I again highly doubt that ads have much play in the decision and wonder why you keep including that. Your whole post seems disingenuous and is fairly out of character for you??


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Tivo should really offer a watered down version of their service. A Tivo HD (or even a S2 single tuner - the recycle plan) with season pass and all the commercials you could want. This would be the lowest level of Tivo support (better than basic but not as good as plus). The service would allow for a greater amount of ads (because the ads would be paying for this service). They could even keep these boxes confined to OTA only. 

All of the premium service boxes (lifetime boxes included) would have no ads (or limited ads). Or they could give these customers the option to opt out of the ads.

I really think there is a way for Tivo to leverage this.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well duh - if you do not want to record cable and only care about OTA, then you very likely do not see 300$ of value in TTG/MRV. For OTA only users this is well in the no brainer camp. I again highly doubt that ads have much play in the decision and wonder why you keep including that. Your whole post seems disingenuous and is fairly out of character for you??


I could care less about the ads. I also think the _overwhelming majority_ of those that have used a TivoHD could care less about the ads.

The issue of ads is relevant here because past HD DVRs, like the discontinued lines from Sony, used TVGOS and were _chock full_ of advertisements. As far as I am aware, the DTVPal DVR is the first product of any kind to use the TVGOS program information without the [ad-filled] TVGuide interface. For years, TVGOS has been associated with advertising, which I why I emphasize their absence on the DTVPal DVR.

Reading the AVSForum, the issue of advertising also gets some 'play' from those who have never used a TiVo. They've seen the advertisements on their Comcast DVR or an old VCRPlus! VCR, so they have a certain image in their mind of what advertisements are like on a VCR or DVR. They hear mention of ads on the TiVo, and that factors into their decision because they make certain assumptions about the implementation, and they may find that incompatible with their view of a pay service. I do agree completely that if these same people actually saw what ads were on a TiVo, most would not find them offensive. It's the perception that hurts TiVo -- and others like Moxi try to take advantage of it.


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

Between the Moxi, the TiVo HD, and the Dish products, users have some choices other than the cable boxes. If the market shows interest, others will likely compete. 

I always hated VCR+. I never kept the guide handy to enter the darned numbers.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

If this unit has anything close to VIP-XXX line interface, it will blow TiVo out of the water for OTA market. The assumption that this DVR is just a glorified replacement for VCR couldn't be more wrong. Actually VIP interface is much cleaner and more user friendly then TiVo. And most people believe it or not do not care about TiVo "premium" features, they need DVR to timeshift and trickplay.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

samo said:


> If this unit has anything close to VIP-XXX line interface, it will blow TiVo out of the water for OTA market. The assumption that this DVR is just a glorified replacement for VCR couldn't be more wrong. Actually VIP interface is much cleaner and more user friendly then TiVo. And most people believe it or not do not care about TiVo "premium" features, they need DVR to timeshift and trickplay.


Is the Kool-Aid sugar-free, too?


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

It would be good choice if you only wanted the basic local programing but for me no way it would work for me. I would have use the Seattle which consists of 16 channels. It don't have Espn Espn2, discovery Sci-fie.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> The issue of ads is relevant here because past HD DVRs, like the discontinued lines from Sony, used TVGOS and were _chock full_ of advertisements. As far as I am aware, the DTVPal DVR is the first product of any kind to use the TVGOS program information without the [ad-filled] TVGuide interface. For years, TVGOS has been associated with advertising, which I why I emphasize their absence on the DTVPal DVR.


AH. Thanks, that explains where you were coming from. I have never looked much at those DVRs with the TVguide interface. I see what you are saying now. A fresh look at who someone with a lot of DVR experience might misconstrue how TiVo interface looks as well. Guess they do not get the idea that TiVo is working hard to put a whole new balance on presenting ads versus user experience.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> And most people believe it or not do not care about TiVo "premium" features, they need DVR to timeshift and trickplay.


I can see a lot of analog cable folks moving over to this as sure the ydo not care about digital cable premium or fancy DVR premium. They do however care about the channels they get now and would still wnat to get. An OTA only box will only go so far in delivering that as only high density areas will compete well, and I am talking channels like Disney, nicktoons, ESPN, Sci-Fi and not niche stuff.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

samo said:


> If this unit has anything close to VIP-XXX line interface, it will blow TiVo out of the water for OTA market. The assumption that this DVR is just a glorified replacement for VCR couldn't be more wrong. Actually VIP interface is much cleaner and more user friendly then TiVo. And most people believe it or not do not care about TiVo "premium" features, they need DVR to timeshift and trickplay.


It uses pretty much the same interface as the DTVPal (non-DVR model) so it is very, very, *very* primitive. It is quite a step down from a cable company DVR let alone a TiVo. I think it is safer to think of it as a digital VCR than a full blown DVR. If that's all you need then this is the product for you. Otherwise you are in for a big disappointment. It is simple timeshifting with a simple guide. Features are what makes a TiVo worth the subscription costs.

Although the DTVPalDVR uses TVGOS data (if available) it does not use the TVGOS interface. If you schedule it to record "Two and a Half Men" at 8:00 PM it will record whatever is on at 8:00 PM whether it is "Two and a Half Men" or not. In other words it will not follow the show around due to scheduling changes nor can you tell it to record "Two and a Half Men" whenever it happens to be on.

Hopefully we will see some real DVRs with TVGOS in the future.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I can see a lot of analog cable folks moving over to this as sure the ydo not care about digital cable premium or fancy DVR premium. They do however care about the channels they get now and would still wnat to get. An OTA only box will only go so far in delivering that as only high density areas will compete well, and I am talking channels like Disney, nicktoons, ESPN, Sci-Fi and not niche stuff.


I do not disagree with what you say. For me personally programming is the king. I subscribe to both DBS providers just because I can not get all the programming I want from either one. But I'm talking about people who use OTA only and are happy with that. Granted, these people are in a minority.
I don't know how big of the market it is. But judging from some of the posts here where people say that they are saving money by canceling the cable and using HD Tivo for OTA only, this market still exist. These are people who want and/or need to pinch pennies and are looking for the most economical solution.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> It uses pretty much the same interface as the DTVPal (non-DVR model) so it is very, very, *very* primitive. It is quite a step down from a cable company DVR let alone a TiVo. I think it is safer to think of it as a digital VCR than a full blown DVR. If that's all you need then this is the product for you. Otherwise you are in for a big disappointment. It is simple timeshifting with a simple guide. Features are what makes a TiVo worth the subscription costs.
> 
> Although the DTVPalDVR uses TVGOS data (if available) it does not use the TVGOS interface. If you schedule it to record "Two and a Half Men" at 8:00 PM it will record whatever is on at 8:00 PM whether it is "Two and a Half Men" or not. In other words it will not follow the show around due to scheduling changes nor can you tell it to record "Two and a Half Men" whenever it happens to be on.
> 
> Hopefully we will see some real DVRs with TVGOS in the future.


That is a shame. Looks like Dish stepped back to yearly 50x software (it used to record by time slot instead of the show description). This will still work and for the most part soap operas don't move around, but Dish could do much better job if they ported VIP software to it.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

TonyTheTiger said:


> This has potential as a VCR replacement and the lack of a subscription would be a huge advantage to many. Sure, it's not a TiVo or a sat/cableco replacement, but it has a place in the market for non-technicaly minded people who want a little better quality and convenience over video tape - and there are still a lot of those people out there.


Considering that most VCR buyers hardly ever used their VCR to record, how big is that market really?



lafos said:


> I always hated VCR+. I never kept the guide handy to enter the darned numbers.


I never knew anyone else who used one.
I did have the original unit years ago. As I recall, the initial set up was a tad tricky.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> ...I think it is safer to think of (the DTVPalDVR) as a digital VCR than a full blown DVR...It is simple timeshifting with a simple guide. Features are what makes a TiVo worth the subscription costs...
> 
> If you schedule (the DTVPalDVR) to record "Two and a Half Men" at 8:00 PM it will record whatever is on at 8:00 PM whether it is "Two and a Half Men" or not. In other words it will not follow the show around due to scheduling changes...
> 
> Hopefully we will see some real DVRs with TVGOS in the future.


A 'real DVR' doesn't need a program guide, just a hard drive, and doesn't need an EPG or search capabilities. Most DVR's add simple to sophisticated features to HDD recording, but the paradigm shift that a DVR offers via HDD recording is the ability to play back at (almost) the same instant that a program is recorded. Nothing more; nothing less!

TiVo's is 'more than a DVR'. DTVPal is a simple DVR. Neither is anything like a VCR.

How significant is DTVPal as an unsophisticated DVR competitor to TiVo? Time will tell.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> *the DTVPal DVR lacks season passes and the ability to record only new episodes and ignore repeats*; all recording is performed with timers, created manually or set automatically through a program guide selection.


I really think that for most people, setting recordings automatically through a program guide selection is "good enough". I'm not sure if you mean you can have *repeating* timers or not.. (e.g. a 'pretend' season pass -- say record all episodes of "How I Met your Mother", but it really just creates a Mon 8PM-8:30PM CBS repeating recording.. so if the show moves, you still get that time recorded).

*I* see the benefits of Tivo and paid for them... and though I don't use any of the 'extra' features now (and in fact record all analog), at least the netflix streaming may get me to more seriously consider going OTA only. (Though this box + Roku would fit those needs.)



mahermusic said:


> Isn't this a lot like how VCR plus is (used to be??? Is VCR Plus still around?)


No, with VCR+ you enter a many-digit number for recordings. It always seemed very illogical to me -- MUCH more confusing than just timing VCR slots.



JYoung said:


> Considering that most VCR buyers hardly ever used their VCR to record, how big is that market really?


I think that people _want_ to be able to record, many just don't have the ambition to learn how to program VCR-like timers. (See above for 'pick from a program guide' is better even if it really is just a timeslot recording.)

Heck, check out avsforum's DVD recorder section. Sure, most are really geeky, but many wanted recording WITHOUT a subscription fee, and most if not all of the ones newer than the non-Tivo recorder I have (Toshiba XS32) support TV Guide On Screen.. though there are many reports of people in certain areas having problems with it.

Basically -- this is no Tivo, ESPECIALLY because it doesn't support cable. But, even for JUST clear-QAM recording (_EASILY_, even if via user-generated program titles), I could imagine getting a recorder with similar functionality, if it allowed editing of recordings.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

mattack said:


> I really think that for most people, setting recordings automatically through a program guide selection is "good enough".
> 
> I'm not sure if you mean you can have *repeating* timers or not.. (e.g. a 'pretend' season pass -- say record all episodes of "How I Met your Mother", but it really just creates a Mon 8PM-8:30PM CBS repeating recording.. so if the show moves, you still get that time recorded).


From what I understand, that is exactly how it works.

If FOX decides to show House on a Wednesday instead of Tuesday, as they did last month, your repeating timer for House on Tues @ 8pm (scheduled through the guide) misses that episode. In the recorded list, the DTVPal DVR displays the name of whatever program was recorded in that timeslot.

It's been a few years since I have used TiVo Basic, but my recollection is that it works the same way.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

mattack said:


> I really think that for most people, setting recordings automatically through a program guide selection is "good enough". I'm not sure if you mean you can have *repeating* timers or not.. (e.g. a 'pretend' season pass -- say record all episodes of "How I Met your Mother", but it really just creates a Mon 8PM-8:30PM CBS repeating recording.. so if the show moves, you still get that time recorded).


If it works like DishPVR 50X series, then it is very easy to select individual and repeat recordings. You select the show by either search or clicking on a show in a grid type guide. After you selected a show you have a choice of one time, weekly, daily or M-F. That works fine for most repeat recordings. You end up with extra recordings once in a while if a show is M-T like Daily Show, but in general you very seldom lose recordings because show moves. I used to set everything I wanted to record and make corrections as needed once a week Not too big of the chore. I can't think of the single series on network TV that moves a time slot often.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I think it is interesting that the first two serious contenders to be introduced into this space in a while, i.e., developed in light of _recent_ market intelligence, are not going directly up against TiVo; one aiming at OTA only, the other aiming at cable only. The former makes sense to me; a low-end device for the low-end of the market. But does Digeo think that has prompted them to put out a device that is more expensive than TiVo but less feature-packed.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

FWIW, you can buy ATSC tuners for your PC and turn it into an OTA or in-the-clear QAM DVR with no monthly fees. Home Theater PC users have been doing this for years (mine has six HD tuners). There are several freeware DVR apps as well as numerous commercial ones and guide data is free for all of them. I see this product being used by those that are less than technically minded and just want an inexpensive way to record OTA programming.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

I updated the first post with technical specifications.

It is interesting to note that the DTVPal DVR stores its system software on internal flash memory. Even if you remove the hard drive, the box still boots normally. If you remove the built-in hard drive and install another, the DTVPal DVR automatically formats and prepares the new drive for use.

Over on the AVS forum, a user swapped out the built-in 250GB drive with a 500GB drive. The DTVPal DVR booted normally, formatted the new 500GB drive, and then began recording to the new drive with its full capacity. TiVo could learn something from that, I think.

_Edit: Users tried to upgrade with 750GB and 1TB drives, but were unsuccessful. As of this posting, 500GB is the largest drive size confirmed to work as an upgrade for this product._


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

> Fee-less DTVPal HDTV DVR now shipping -- first competition for TiVo


I thought I'd have seen this comment earlier in the thread, but this isn't the first, wouldn't you consider Sony's now long dead DHG-HDD250 and HDD500 units the first? They did OTA and CableCARD, not dual tuner, but still, a valiant attempt.

Diane


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> If you remove the built-in hard drive and install another, the DTVPal DVR automatically formats and prepares the new drive for use.


Can you put back an already-formatted-for-this-device drive without it erasing it again?
(i.e. have 'removable media' in terms of hard drives!)


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## shady (May 31, 2002)

I think this would be an excellent alternative for many people that are buying digital decoder boxes for the Feb switchover. This product really needed to be available a few months ago


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

mattack said:


> Can you put back an already-formatted-for-this-device drive without it erasing it again?
> (i.e. have 'removable media' in terms of hard drives!)


Yes.

Dish Network appears to have completely separated its system software from the hard drive. Not a bad idea, as far as reliability goes.



dianebrat said:


> I thought I'd have seen this comment earlier in the thread, but this isn't the first, wouldn't you consider Sony's now long dead DHG-HDD250 and HDD500 units the first? They did OTA and CableCARD, not dual tuner, but still, a valiant attempt.


Upon release, the single-tuner Sony DHG-HDD250 and DHG-HDD500 sold for $799 and $999. This was at a time when the dual-tuner TiVo Series3 sold for about $700 online. _Edit: This can't be right. The Sony was discontinued about nine months before the TiVo Series3 was released. Perhaps I was thinking of the DirecTV HD TiVo released in early 2004._

The Sony also relied on analog TVGOS for its guide information, which, at the time, was not available in many areas. When it was available, you got a guide that was chock full of advertisements and banners.

If the Sony was competition, it was short-lived, because they discontinued it less than a year after release.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> If the Sony was competition, it was short-lived, because they discontinued it less than a year after release.


Oh I never said it was a worthy competitor, just that it get the credit for being first 

Diane


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

FYI - ReplayTV was the first serious competitor to Tivo. It recorded from both OTA and cable with no monthly fees (lifetime service was included with the price). Since then there have been numerous attempts by manufacturers to introduce DVRs that have all failed miserably (RCA Scenium, LG, Sony, and probably others). ReplayTV eventually when to a fee based subscription service but with all of the legal problems they had the company eventually went under, even after changing hands several times.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Disregard-duplicate post


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> FYI - ReplayTV was the first serious competitor to Tivo. It recorded from both OTA and cable with no monthly fees (lifetime service was included with the price). Since then there have been numerous attempts by manufacturers to introduce DVRs that have all failed miserably (RCA Scenium, LG, Sony, and probably others). ReplayTV eventually when to a fee based subscription service but with all of the legal problems they had the company eventually went under, even after changing hands several times.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6940729#post6940729


bkdtv said:


> Before people take issue with my "first competition for TiVo" comment, I mean that with regard to *standalone HDTV DVRs that you can buy*.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Another competitor expected to enter this space soon:
http://www.xstreamhd.com/
NOTE: The main purpose of that solution is for 1080p movies on demand, however it also has 3 built in ATSC tuners for OTA recording which is why I mention it here as a future competitor to this product.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Before people take issue with my "first competition for TiVo" comment, I mean that with regard to standalone HDTV DVRs that you can buy.


The Moxi has been available at Amazon before this DVR shipped (I know you saw my post about it here and at AVS), and this box is in no way a direct competitor to the Tivo since it is solely OTA and the Tivo is marketed as a cable box replacement. Apples and oranges except for that small slice of OTA-only users that might consider the much more expensive Tivo.

You know all this (and the info in this thread is useful to know), but the premise is incorrect.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> Upon release, the single-tuner Sony DHG-HDD250 and DHG-HDD500 sold for $799 and $999. This was at a time when the dual-tuner TiVo Series3 sold for about $700 online.
> 
> The Sony also relied on analog TVGOS for its guide information, which, at the time, was not available in many areas. When it was available, you got a guide that was chock full of advertisements and banners.
> 
> If the Sony was competition, it was short-lived, because they discontinued it less than a year after release.


Today in the secondary market such as eBay used Sony DVRs in excellent condition sell for around $400 for 250GB and $600 for 500GB.

Sony's TVGOS is a highly advanced version (although there is a newer one used by TVs) which is much easier to set parameters for. Its EPG data is now supplied from CBS digital stations.

The best things about the Sony DVR are a wide range of user adjustable options, as opposed to TiVo's typical 'one size fits all'. Sony's DVR can use a CableCARD but provides EPG data without one. It can manually map unscrambled QAM channels and ATSC channels too.

http://www.docs.sony.com/release/DHGHDD250-500rev2.pdf


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> ...there have been numerous attempts by manufacturers to introduce DVRs that have all failed miserably (RCA Scenium, LG, Sony, and probably others).


LG produced the earliest hi-def DVR but it wasn't quite ready for prime time. It is the only hi-def DVR with (2) analog line inputs. Its TVGOS could manually map unscrambled QAM channels. It may be the only DVR made without a continuous recording buffer.

LG's most notable flaw was that it required TVGOS to set its clock but required an accurate clock to access TVGOS once it had been set-up. There was a workaround but it was still a nasty CATCH-22 problem. LG's older version of TVGOS can't access digital EPG data now so, perhaps fortunately, is no longer functional. It's a cult machine at best, which, once its limitations are known, is useful as a back-up recorder which can switch between an analog and digital tuner and analog inputs.

RCA's Scenium is an 80GB DVR without EPG, supplied by Firewire from designated RCA TV's. (I've got one brand-new in its sealed box that anybody who can use it can have for $10 shipping. It became apparent that it wouldn't work for my intended application. The LG DVR described above has a Firewire output jack.)


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> In the past, Dish Network indicated plans to make its IP VOD service available to the DTVPal DVR using ethernet, but nothing has been said about that recently.


If sales are solid, it's inevitable. The current IP VOD catalog is provided via CinemaNow, who they've previously invested in.



moyekj said:


> Another competitor expected to enter this space soon:http://www.xstreamhd.com/


I saw these guys at CES last year, and looks like they'll be displaying again. But I don't know about "soon" or even "ever" - we'll see.


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

JYoung said:


> I never knew anyone else who used VCR+.
> I did have the original unit years ago. As I recall, the initial set up was a tad tricky.


It was really easy to use later on, when it was built in to many VCRs. Just push the VCR+ button on your remote control, enter the numeric code from TV Guide or your newspaper listings and the recording was set up. I didn't find it worthwhile - I don't believe you got the options (one-time, daily, weekly, etc.) you got with the normal VCR interface, but I could see how it would appeal to people less technologically inclined.

I once started trying to reverse-engineer the encoding, but got nowhere.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

bkdtv said:


> Upon release, the single-tuner Sony DHG-HDD250 and DHG-HDD500 sold for $799 and $999. This was at a time when the dual-tuner TiVo Series3 sold for about $700 online.


No. The TiVo Series 3 was definitely not available when the Sony models were introduced. You can go back and look at all the old posts in the Sony forum speculating as to when or if TiVo would come out with an HD recorder to compete. They eventually did but it was after the Sony models were discontinued.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> No. The TiVo Series 3 was definitely not available when the Sony models were introduced. You can go back and look at all the old posts in the Sony forum speculating as to when or if TiVo would come out with an HD recorder to compete. They eventually did but it was after the Sony models were discontinued.


You're absolutely right. I was thinking of the DirecTV HD TiVo released in early 2004.

The Sony was released 12/2004 and discontinued less than one year later. The TiVo Series3 wasn't released until Sept, 2006.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Looks cool, what's the price?



moyekj said:


> Another competitor expected to enter this space soon:
> http://www.xstreamhd.com/
> NOTE: The main purpose of that solution is for 1080p movies on demand, however it also has 3 built in ATSC tuners for OTA recording which is why I mention it here as a future competitor to this product.


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## chris401 (Dec 15, 2008)

For the naysayers, I'm in this particular market-- OTA-only. Would prefer for this to have Tivo type functionality, however, and am strongly considering an Tivo HD with lifetime instead.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

chris401 said:


> For the naysayers, I'm in this particular market-- OTA-only. Would prefer for this to have Tivo type functionality, however, and am strongly considering an Tivo HD with lifetime instead.


one difference to note then is that you can hook up the cable to the TiVo HD and if you get lifeline or basic cable then the TiVo HD can record from it.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> It was really easy to use later on, when it was built in to many VCRs. Just push the VCR+ button on your remote control, enter the numeric code from TV Guide or your newspaper listings and the recording was set up. I didn't find it worthwhile - I don't believe you got the options (one-time, daily, weekly, etc.) you got with the normal VCR interface, but I could see how it would appeal to people less technologically inclined.
> 
> I once started trying to reverse-engineer the encoding, but got nowhere.


Truth be told, I got it so I could record multiple events on different channels via the cable box unattended.
The IR blaster on there could drive both the VCR and the Cable box.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

interesting- i think the more options the better.

but one thing- i have to take issue with "no advertisements"- looks like theres a huge DISH advertisment staring you in the face every second you look at the guide- no? (check that- looks like it's all over the menu?)

that's worth something to the dish satellite tv people for sure.


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