# Power consumption



## mhellman (Aug 19, 2009)

I recently bought two TiVo HD XL units and measured their energy consumption -- something I do on all new devices. While the old ReplayTV DVR's they replaced were no better, I'd hoped that TiVo would be more environmentally conscious and use a reduced power mode when the unit was not recording. No such luck.

Even though TiVo Suggestions (which I realize will be recording even when I haven't told the unit to do that) is turned off, the power consumption is almost constant. Is there a way to enable energy savings modes that I just haven't found, or does TiVo need to green its act? Which, incidentally would save me real money. At the prices I pay for energy, the lack of power management is costing me $10-15 a month in wasted power!

I know there are some arguments that set top boxes (and therefore TiVo's) cannot sleep due to the need to access the server for program guide updates, but that seems like a bogus argument both to me (an electrical engineer) and to a friend who runs DeviceGuru.com.

For those interested, here are the measurements I made:

Before installing a Multistream card: 30-35 watts, 33.6 watts average over 283 hours, only 2 watts less when put in standby mode (manually). After installing Multistream card: 35.4 watts average over 75 hours, 35-36 watts instantaneous, so only about 2 watts (1.8 average) for the card.

I came up with the $10-15 a month by assuming the two units are each recording about 8 hours of every day, and used the roughly $0.40 a kWh I pay, courtesy of Enron "screwing those California grandmas." They also snagged a California grandpa -- me.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Martin


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## etz (Sep 8, 2006)

the TiVo is always recording to the live TV buffer, not just when it's recording a todo list item or suggestions list item.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

mhellman said:


> I recently bought two TiVo HD XL units and measured their energy consumption -- something I do on all new devices. While the old ReplayTV DVR's they replaced were no better, I'd hoped that TiVo would be more environmentally conscious and use a reduced power mode when the unit was not recording. No such luck.


You would probably get a reduced power consumption if the unit was not recording. However, the unit is *never* not recording two streams from its tuners (except if tuned to a non-existent channel with no signal, where it's in an in-between state). If it is doing nothing else, it is recording the last 30 minutes of live tv - whatever the tuners happened to be tuned to. You turn on the TV, you're in a live TV buffer and can go 30 minutes back in it.

That's a design feature that a lot of people like and count on, and it's something tough to design around in that the TiVo has no idea whether there's a TV turned on that's receiving its output. The best energy savings we can hope for is an expansion of "stand-by mode", but that's too clumsy for many people as it is.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> ...That's a design feature that a lot of people like and count on, and it's something tough to design around in that the TiVo has no idea whether there's a TV turned on that's receiving its output. The best energy savings we can hope for is an expansion of "stand-by mode", but that's too clumsy for many people as it is.


Actually a typical Tivo setup does know if the TV is on. TiVo logs the TV power button presses the same as any other remote button.

I once was called to participate with a TV ratings company (guess!) and they specifically asked if I used the Tivo remote to control TV power.

NB, TV power is a toggle of the same signal for off & on. Can we guess that it wouldn't be real hard for Tivo to know which is which, i.e. "off" will be the last button pressed in a session and "on" will be followed by eleventy-seven other Tivo commands.

Complications are only such as using a universal remote, and stuff like Slingbox.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

netringer said:


> Actually a typical Tivo setup does know if the TV is on. TiVo logs the TV power button presses the same as any other remote button.
> 
> I once was called to participate with a TV ratings company (guess!) and they specifically asked if I used the Tivo remote to control TV power.
> 
> ...


No, it doesn't know. I agree it can guess, but I would venture on some of my TiVo's, its guess would be wrong 90% of the time. Once you start having multiple TiVos on one TV (as I do), or multiple TVs for one TiVo (as many folks here do with extenders), as well as the cases you mention, then all bets are off.


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## mhellman (Aug 19, 2009)

etz said:


> the TiVo is always recording to the live TV buffer, not just when it's recording a todo list item or suggestions list item.


But I ought to have the option of turning that off. Most of the time the tuner's output is going nowhere. The TiVo would not have to know if the TV is on or off. Something like the current "standby" mode (but with much lower power consumption) would work and there are other ways to do it as well.


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## cowboydren (Oct 7, 2009)

Isn't most of the power consumption from the disk? The disk never stops spinning on a DVR; takes too long to wake it back up to make a recording. The SoC operating system also has to stay awake to watch the clock waiting for a channel change event.

Environmentalism and gizmo addiction are mutually exclusive concepts anyway. Anything that you do not need (clean water, shelter) is a luxury which creates waste and consumes resources, and a TiVo is clearly a luxury. You can't be a true greenie and a TV junkie at the same time. How much is it worth to _you_?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

cowboydren said:


> Isn't most of the power consumption from the disk? The disk never stops spinning on a DVR; takes too long to wake it back up to make a recording. The SoC operating system also has to stay awake to watch the clock waiting for a channel change event.
> 
> Environmentalism and gizmo addiction are mutually exclusive concepts anyway. Anything that you do not need (clean water, shelter) is a luxury which creates waste and consumes resources, and a TiVo is clearly a luxury. You can't be a true greenie and a TV junkie at the same time. How much is it worth to _you_?


FWIW my media center PC sleeps between recordings unless I'm specifically using it. It wakes up just fine, makes it's scheduled recording(s) and goes back to sleep using very little power.

So it IS possible and works very well.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> FWIW my media center PC sleeps between recordings unless I'm specifically using it. It wakes up just fine, makes it's scheduled recording(s) and goes back to sleep using very little power.
> 
> So it IS possible and works very well.


In my best Seinfeld "Soup Nazi" voice: "No buffer for you!"


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

mhellman said:


> I know there are some arguments that set top boxes (and therefore TiVo's) cannot sleep due to the need to access the server for program guide updates, but that seems like a bogus argument both to me (an electrical engineer) and to a friend who runs DeviceGuru.com.


Most cable, satellite, and TiVo DVRs are based on Broadcom DVR SoCs. Broadcom supports virtually no power management functions on these chips. As a result, every Broadcom-based DVR would still require 25+ watts even if the drive were to spin down.

As far as cable and satellite DVRs go, the TiVo uses less power than most. Dish Network's popular ViP622 and ViP722 DVRs use 55 watts, 24/7.

Broadcom announced its first DVR SoCs with power management functions earlier this year, so we should see those in DVRs (maybe a TiVo?) in 2010.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

mhellman said:


> I came up with the $10-15 a month by assuming the two units are each recording about 8 hours of every day, and used the roughly $0.40 a kWh I pay, courtesy of Enron "screwing those California grandmas." They also snagged a California grandpa -- me.


According to the DOE the average rate in California (the third highest state) is 16 cents per kwh. Where are you that it is 40 cents?


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## mhellman (Aug 19, 2009)

jrm01 said:


> According to the DOE the average rate in California (the third highest state) is 16 cents per kwh. Where are you that it is 40 cents?


It depends on what tier you're in. My most recent PG&E bill, for example, started out at roughly 12c/kWh for the first 207 kWh, but moved up to 37c for the last tier. During the summer it is over 40c/kWh. Since the savings that I'd obtain if TiVo had power management come from the last tier, that's what I base it on. If one has more modest power consumption, then the cost would be less, but either a swimming pool or A/C (at least in the summer) will push most homes into the top tier.

It's a real travesty how, when others are paying for the power, many companies turn a blind eye to the issue. I can't post URL's here, but if you Google "hellman energy star deviceguru.com" (without the quotes) you'll find a discussion about a related issue that saved America consumers millions, and possibly billions, of dollars. (How much depends on how long the problem would have festered if I hadn't gotten involved, and how widespread it was.) The articles are entitled "Energy Star or black hole?" and "HDTV's DAM pops Energy Star's bubble."


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> In my best Seinfeld "Soup Nazi" voice: "No buffer for you!"


I can count on one hand the number of times I've come in on the middle of a program and wanted to record it or watch it from the beginning so don't miss the buffer.

Of course when I'm watching Live TV on either the HTPC or my TiVos (seldom) I do have the buffer so can pause, rewind, etc.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

cowboydren said:


> Isn't most of the power consumption from the disk?


Nope. The disks used in Tivos are low power, generally rated at about 5 watts. Most of the power consumption comes from the other electronics.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

CrispyCritter said:


> No, it doesn't know. I agree it can guess, but I would venture on some of my TiVo's, its guess would be wrong 90% of the time. Once you start having multiple TiVos on one TV (as I do), or multiple TVs for one TiVo (as many folks here do with extenders), as well as the cases you mention, then all bets are off.


Sometimes, I will turn off my TV using the power switch (you know -- the one on the TV itself), if Tivo was really registering "TV power" button presses, it could get "out of phase" ie recording "off" as "on", which would really screw their stats.



RoyK said:


> I can count on one hand the number of times I've come in on the middle of a program and wanted to record it or watch it from the beginning so don't miss the buffer.
> 
> Of course when I'm watching Live TV on either the HTPC or my TiVos (seldom) I do have the buffer so can pause, rewind, etc.


I do it almost daily. I'll leave the tivo on ESPN when I go to bed at night, and when I get up in the morning, I put on the TV and can watch SportsCenter without commercials (the same Sportscenter is repeated from 1:00 am to 9:00 am, so it doesn't matter when I pick it up).


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

For the last two years + I have had my TiVo on a AC timer, turning it off at 4AM and back on at 4PM, as I never record anything in that time period, at between 5:30pm and 7pm the TiVo will call in for the guide data update and any software updates will be done by 4am (The TiVo will install new software updates starting at 2 AM). This operation cuts the power use in half and extends the life of my 1Tb hard drive.
As I said this has worked for me without any problems with the cable cards or missed recordings.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

tiassa said:


> I'll leave the tivo on ESPN when I go to bed at night, and when I get up in the morning, I put on the TV and can watch SportsCenter without commercials


Of course you could also just record SportsCenter, in which case you wouldn't be depending on the buffer.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

lessd said:


> This operation cuts the power use in half and extends the life of my 1Tb hard drive.


Yes this reduces power consumption, but I wouldn't be so sure about how it affects the life of your drive. Turning it on/off each day could actually reduce the life of the drive due to the spin up/down cycles and the heating/cooling cycles.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

mhellman said:


> It depends on what tier you're in. My most recent PG&E bill, for example, started out at roughly 12c/kWh for the first 207 kWh, but moved up to 37c for the last tier. During the summer it is over 40c/kWh. Since the savings that I'd obtain if TiVo had power management come from the last tier, that's what I base it on. If one has more modest power consumption, then the cost would be less, but either a swimming pool or A/C (at least in the summer) will push most homes into the top tier.
> "


A few months ago I figured my four TiVos are costing me about $12/month each for power due to the highest PR&E tier which is almost unavoidable for another grandpa with a swimming pool and air conditioning in the San Francisco area. It makes the TiVo $6.95 service charge a minor cost issue and over time exceeds the purchase charge as well as the cost of buying lifetime. I remember from my computer sales days how we used to sell new machines with a large part of the justification being savings on the cost of power; I hope TiVo will recognize the opportunity to do so also.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

spocko said:


> Yes this reduces power consumption, but I wouldn't be so sure about how it affects the life of your drive. Turning it on/off each day could actually reduce the life of the drive due to the spin up/down cycles and the heating/cooling cycles.


The drive in my computer has been it that computer for four years and using Drive Tune software I can read out the drive information and the the power on hours is about 8,000 hours with over 6,000 on/off cycles and i never had a problem, the new drives can be turn off and on without problems.


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## kettledrum (Nov 17, 2003)

mhellman said:


> It depends on what tier you're in. My most recent PG&E bill, for example, started out at roughly 12c/kWh for the first 207 kWh, but moved up to 37c for the last tier. During the summer it is over 40c/kWh. Since the savings that I'd obtain if TiVo had power management come from the last tier, that's what I base it on. If one has more modest power consumption, then the cost would be less, but either a swimming pool or A/C (at least in the summer) will push most homes into the top tier.
> 
> It's a real travesty how, when others are paying for the power, many companies turn a blind eye to the issue. I can't post URL's here, but if you Google "hellman energy star deviceguru.com" (without the quotes) you'll find a discussion about a related issue that saved America consumers millions, and possibly billions, of dollars. (How much depends on how long the problem would have festered if I hadn't gotten involved, and how widespread it was.) The articles are entitled "Energy Star or black hole?" and "HDTV's DAM pops Energy Star's bubble."


Thanks for your analysis on power consumption of your TiVo. I've been wondering about how they run, but had never tried to search for that info here. I wonder if different models consume different amounts (Series1, Series2, Series2 DT, Series 3, HD, HDXL) I've got to get me one of those Kill-A-Watt meters.

A couple of asides...

Interesting read on your issues with your Sony HDTV. I wonder if all Sonys behave in this manner.

My electric company's rates work in the exact opposite. I pay a base rate of $0.093 for the first 300kWh and then $0.054 for the next 700 kWh, and then $0.044 for some unknown amount above that. (I've never exceed 1,850 kWh in one biling cycle).


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

mhellman said:


> I came up with the $10-15 a month by assuming the two units are each recording about 8 hours of every day, and used the roughly $0.40 a kWh I pay, courtesy of Enron "screwing those California grandmas." They also snagged a California grandpa -- me.
> 
> Thanks for any help you can provide.


You can always try the advice you got from someone else about powering the box down with a manual timer, but I don't like that idea. Yes the filesystem TiVo uses is supposedly resilient to being powered down abruptly, but I certainly wouldn't tempt fate by doing that every day.

As to your electricity rates, "screwing grandma" doesn't seem adequate as a characterization. Paying $0.40/kWh seems more like gang rape in prison (pardon my French). Hmmm. Any way to play that for an investment? Who is generating that expensive power in California? Where is the money going?


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> As to your electricity rates, "screwing grandma" doesn't seem adequate as a characterization. Paying $0.40/kWh seems more like gang rape in prison (pardon my French). Hmmm. Any way to play that for an investment? Who is generating that expensive power in California? Where is the money going?


It's actually worse than $.40/ Kwh for me; for October, I paid a marginal rate of $.61 during peak periods and $.40 during off peak. It's a bit better for November with $.42 during peak hours and still $.40 for off peak. Around 60% of the cost went for "generation" and about 30% for "distribution". Things like transmission, public purpose programs, nuclear decommissioning, DWR bond charge, ongoing CTC and energy cost recovery program are relatively minor costs, whatever they really mean. Baseline users pay only $.09 in November--in other words, in California, electric charges are structured to subsidize costs for users of small amounts of electricity by large residential electricity users. That kind of philosophy is widespread in California, particularly in the income tax where around 145,000 taxpayers pay over 40% of the state income tax in a state with 38 million people.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

cowboydren said:


> Isn't most of the power consumption from the disk? The disk never stops spinning on a DVR; takes too long to wake it back up to make a recording. The SoC operating system also has to stay awake to watch the clock waiting for a channel change event._you_?


I believe a typical disk draws 8-12 watts, less than half the observed power consumption.

I never added a second disk to my Series 3 because I didn't feel the extra storage was worth the extra power cost. There weren't that many shows I wanted to keep around for more than a week or 2. I likewise retired my Series 2 box rather than keep it online as an extra tuner (subscription cost also played into that).


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

spocko said:


> Of course you could also just record SportsCenter, in which case you wouldn't be depending on the buffer.


True, but I don't watch Sportscenter every morning, so it isn't that big a deal. I could set up a season pass and "keep only 1 episode", but this works for me.


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## Dunbar (Dec 4, 2001)

retired_guy said:


> Baseline users pay only $.09 in November--in other words, in California, electric charges are structured to subsidize costs for users of small amounts of electricity by large residential electricity users. That kind of philosophy is widespread in California, particularly in the income tax where around 145,000 taxpayers pay over 40% of the state income tax in a state with 38 million people.


Not really true when you factor in property taxes which are highly regressive in CA. Proposition 13 is particularly beneficial for people who stay in same home for a long time (ie., most retirees.) IMO it inflates house prices, raises rents, and contributes to a very regressive cost of living situation. Even if I earned the median income in CA I'd pay higher taxes, not to mention higher rent, compared to IL where I moved from.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

$10-15 a month for 2 tivos? Your cost for power must be very high. I have 3 tivos and my power is 70.00 a month for every thing in my house. I would hate to know how much it costs to power your air condtioner and water heater.



mhellman said:


> I recently bought two TiVo HD XL units and measured their energy consumption -- something I do on all new devices. While the old ReplayTV DVR's they replaced were no better, I'd hoped that TiVo would be more environmentally conscious and use a reduced power mode when the unit was not recording. No such luck.
> 
> Even though TiVo Suggestions (which I realize will be recording even when I haven't told the unit to do that) is turned off, the power consumption is almost constant. Is there a way to enable energy savings modes that I just haven't found, or does TiVo need to green its act? Which, incidentally would save me real money. At the prices I pay for energy, the lack of power management is costing me $10-15 a month in wasted power!
> 
> ...


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

retired_guy said:


> It's actually worse than $.40/ Kwh for me; for October, I paid a marginal rate of $.61 during peak periods and $.40 during off peak. It's a bit better for November with $.42 during peak hours and still $.40 for off peak. Around 60% of the cost went for "generation" and about 30% for "distribution". Things like transmission, public purpose programs, nuclear decommissioning, DWR bond charge, ongoing CTC and energy cost recovery program are relatively minor costs, whatever they really mean. Baseline users pay only $.09 in November--in other words, in California, electric charges are structured to subsidize costs for users of small amounts of electricity by large residential electricity users.





mhellman said:


> the roughly $0.40 a kWh I pay, courtesy of Enron "screwing those California grandmas." They also snagged a California grandpa -- me.


I lived in San Jose, CA until recently and my PG&E rates were nowhere near $0.40 per kWh and neither were that of my friends in Sunnyvale (they were on a different electricity provider/biller). http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html is the DOE page we're talking about.

You and retired_guy must be using WAY over your baseline. Retired_guy, is there a good reason why you're on TOU metering? Maybe there should be a new thread in the happy hour section to discuss how many kwh you're using each month.



tootal2 said:


> $10-15 a month for 2 tivos? Your cost for power must be very high. I have 3 tivos and my power is 70.00 a month for every thing in my house. I would hate to know how much it costs to power your air condtioner and water heater.


If they're paying $0.40-$0.61 per kWH, that is insane. tootal2, what state do you live in? It's be interesting to see where it falls in the table I referenced.

As people have pointed out, the fact that TiVo is always recording (or buffering) and always playing back is very helpful. There have been many times that I've turned on the TV to find something that I like that fortunately I have the latest 30 minutes of. I just hit Record and it includes the buffered portion in my recording.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I used 1073 kwh last month for 66.46. Im in st. louis mo



cwerdna said:


> I lived in San Jose, CA until recently and my PG&E rates were nowhere near $0.40 per kWh and neither were that of my friends in Sunnyvale (they were on a different electricity provider/biller). http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html is the DOE page we're talking about.
> 
> You and retired_guy must be using WAY over your baseline. Retired_guy, is there a good reason why you're on TOU metering? Maybe there should be a new thread in the happy hour section to discuss how many kwh you're using each month.
> 
> ...


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## vectorcatch (Nov 21, 2008)

Just a thought, but I would think that with HDMI the TiVo could absolutely know when the TV was on or not. When the TV is off the link is broken and a new handshake will need to occur to get it going again. This should even be true if there is a receiver in the middle.

They could have a mode to idle unscheduled recordings when there is no link.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

tootal2 said:


> I used 1073 kwh last month for 66.46. Im in st. louis mo


You do have cheap electricity.

For 11/18/09 thru 12/17/09, I used 741 kwh and it cost me $71.78 w/taxes and fees w/Puget Sound Energy. We had almost a week of very cold temps during that period (highs not barely breaking freezing and lows at night between 14 and 19 F).


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

In the Hartford CT area we pay about $0.20/KWH with all taxes etc. I use a 3rd pty power provider so i am saving about $0.015 per KWR (big deal I know but I made one phone call once a few years ago and check up each year or so and it's a savings of 5% to 12% on the generator cost of my bill).


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

From 11/22/09 to 12/23/09 I used 1,364 Kwh and was billed $311.74 for those 32 days. Would love to have those St. Louis rates. Over 80% of my usage was at off-peak rates, although peak and off-peak rates aren't all that different in the winter.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

retired_guy said:


> From 11/22/09 to 12/23/09 I used 1,364 Kwh and was billed $311.74 for those 32 days. Would love to have those St. Louis rates. Over 80% of my usage was at off-peak rates, although peak and off-peak rates aren't all that different in the winter.


311.74 for only 1,364 kwh? I think i would be moving. I guess when cap and trade start my power bill will be over 300.00


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

retired_guy said:


> It's actually worse than $.40/ Kwh for me; for October, I paid a marginal rate of $.61 during peak periods and $.40 during off peak. It's a bit better for November with $.42 during peak hours and still $.40 for off peak...





retired_guy said:


> From 11/22/09 to 12/23/09 I used 1,364 Kwh and was billed $311.74 for those 32 days. Would love to have those St. Louis rates. Over 80% of my usage was at off-peak rates, although peak and off-peak rates aren't all that different in the winter.


Yes, $311.74 is quite expensive but that comes out to ~$0.229 per kwh. If it were $0.40 per kwh, your bill would be $545.60.

Why are you on time-of-use metering? Was it by choice? If so, does it save money?

Also, out of curiosity, what's the "baseline" they define? IIRC, PG&E's baseline is VERY low and everything above it can get quite spendy.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

Note that the $.40/Kwh is my lowest marginal rate, not the average rate. Any savings in power provides benefit to me at the marginal rate unless the power savings are very large. I've done several analysis with PG&E in the past regarding whether I save money with time of use metering and the studies all indicated that I do. The baseline amount for on-peak is 62.9Kwh @ $.115/Kwh. The off-peak baseline is 340 Kwh @ $.09/Kwh. the worse rate is at over 300&#37; of baseline during peak which costs $.429/Kwh at the winter rates (higher in the summer). The peak marginal rate at off-peak hours is "only" $.40/hour.

I should also say that we use gas for home and water heating. The drier is probably our largest electricity consumer although the stove and oven are probably high also. 

Remember I'm in California, the land of renewable (and very expensive) energy. Where income taxes are at 10% and sales taxes at 8.5% even though our spending in public schools per pupil is next to the lowest in the coutry while the state teeters on the verge of bankruptcy. Even the terminator can't fix this state.


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## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

While your power rates are high, the power consumed by Tivo is still relatively small. I'd look at other appliances to cut your power bill, or consider giving up the Tivo.

Ideally, it would be nice to have Tivo consume less power and have the options that you request, but Tivo is battling keeping the prices low on the hardware as well, so I'm guessing that is why a "super standby" feature isn't available. Turning the Tivo off with a timer probably isn't the best thing to do either, since you have no idea what the OS or hard drive is doing at the time of shutdown. With that said, if you shut down Tivo for 12 hours a day, you would be saving .4kwh per day, or 12kwh per month. Not small, but again in comparison to other appliances, not big either. 

Have you considered replacing incadescent bulbs with flourescent ones? 12 watts vs 60 watts per bulb would sure help make up the difference. Or turn up the fridge a bit, or consider using gas stove vs electric, etc.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

Almost all of my bulbs are fluorescent and appliances are energy star compliant. Windows are double paned. The gas bill isn't cheap either. $241 last month for 206 therms. Marginal rate is $1.24/therm when using over 18.5 therms plus a $.065 surcharge/therm. I think PG&E can buy gas at around a nickel/therm in bulk so there're some funny costs here too. But as I said, it's California, where my neighbor has a house 2/3 the size of mine and worth about 2/3 as much but pays a property tax six times as much, thanks to Prop 13, the primary reason for the impoverishment of California public schools.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

mhellman said:


> I came up with the $10-15 a month by assuming the two units are each recording about 8 hours of every day, and used the roughly $0.40 a kWh I pay, courtesy of Enron "screwing those California grandmas."





retired_guy said:


> It's actually worse than $.40/ Kwh for me; for October, I paid a marginal rate of $.61 during peak periods and $.40 during off peak.





retired_guy said:


> Note that the $.40/Kwh is my lowest marginal rate, not the average rate.


Sorry, neither of you guys are paying "$0.40" or more per kwH. I never got mhellman's stats but retired_guy's last bill had him paying ~$0.229 per kwh on average.

To claim your costs are $0.40 per kwH or more is an exaggeration, at best.

Griping about California aside and the renewable energy bit, I picked a Saratoga zip code of 95070 and put it in http://www.epa.gov/cleanenergy/energy-and-you/how-clean.html. It looks like only 27.1% of electricity in that area comes from renewables.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

retired_guy said:


> Remember I'm in California, the land of renewable (and very expensive) energy. Where income taxes are at 10% and sales taxes at 8.5% even though our spending in public schools per pupil is *next to the lowest in the coutry* while the state teeters on the verge of bankruptcy.


In 2007, CA was 22nd in per-pupil spending, 95% of the U.S. average. AZ was near the bottom at 75% of the U.S. average. This is from a census bureau report.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

cwerdna said:


> To claim your costs are $0.40 per kwH or more is an exaggeration, at best.


He didn't say that. He said his *marginal* rate was $0.40.

If you don't understand what that word means, you should refrain from commenting.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

cowboydren said:


> Isn't most of the power consumption from the disk? The disk never stops spinning on a DVR; takes too long to wake it back up to make a recording. The SoC operating system also has to stay awake to watch the clock waiting for a channel change event.
> 
> Environmentalism and gizmo addiction are mutually exclusive concepts anyway. Anything that you do not need (clean water, shelter) is a luxury which creates waste and consumes resources, and a TiVo is clearly a luxury. You can't be a true greenie and a TV junkie at the same time. How much is it worth to _you_?


Replay had that as a feature and still works, and has never missed a recording. Tivo still hasnt caught up to replaytv in terms of features in my book.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> Replay had that as a feature and still works, and has never missed a recording. Tivo still hasnt caught up to replaytv in terms of features in my book.


Replay is a dual tuner HD DVR?


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> Replay is a dual tuner HD DVR?


Tivo can record a single time a program is on , without repeats of the same program?

Tivo can sleep , if the customers desires ?

Tivo can display without harsh or slow screen transitions ?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> Tivo can record a single time a program is on , without repeats of the same program?


Yes.



Videodrome said:


> Tivo can sleep , if the customers desires ?


No.



Videodrome said:


> Tivo can display without harsh or slow screen transitions ?


Yes.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

vman41 said:


> In 2007, CA was 22nd in per-pupil spending, 95% of the U.S. average. AZ was near the bottom at 75% of the U.S. average. This is from a census bureau report.


Here's a 2009 study which puts California at 47th place when spending is adjusted by cost of living factors. I did see a study once which had it in 49th place, just above Mississippi, but can't find a link. In any case, when one looks at the tax and income levels in California relative to the rest of the United States, it isn't doing well in spending on K-12 education.

http://www.csea.com/content/FieldOffices/90/uploads/Per_Pupil_Spending_2009.pdf


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

What level of power consumption would satisfy those that feel this is an issue?

It looks like the current TivoHD DVR would have to average 18 watts to qualify for "tier2" Energy Star compliance. Would that satisfy you? Would you buy a new TiVo just to get that reduced consumption?


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> He didn't say that. He said his *marginal* rate was $0.40.
> 
> If you don't understand what that word means, you should refrain from commenting.


Mhellman, the OP, didn't use the word marginal anywhere in his post (see post #1).

retired_guy then says:


> *It's actually worse than $.40/ Kwh for me*; for October, I paid a *marginal *rate of $.61 during peak periods and $.40 during off peak. It's a bit better for November with $.42 during peak hours and still $.40 for off peak.


Reread the above response. No use of the word marginal in the first part and the OP never used the term. The word marginal only occurs once in his post. I then find out retired_guy is only paying $0.229/kwh on average.

IMHO, their usage of marginal rates + whining without more context is just an exaggeration. Neither's paying their marginal rates for their entire bill, only a portion of it.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

The reason marginal rate (other way to indicate marginal rate in California is "highest tier rate")is important is that's the rate I use in calculating the value of any savings in power from a more efficient DVR (or any other device, for that matter) and also the rate I use when calculating the power cost for purchase of a new TiVo. Note that for me the power cost of a new TiVo at $12/month roughly equals the total of the purchase cost, service cost, cable card cost and expanded disk cost over a five year life and hence is an important component of any decision I may make on a new TiVo. 

Should TiVo announce a new TiVo with four tuners but energy usage roughly equal to today's HD units, the savings in power by replacing two HDs plus one cable card would go quite a ways in justifying an upgrade.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

now that you have integrated the Tivo into your home, I would no longer consider it marginal since it is now the same baseline energy equivalent as running your refrigerator.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

If I'm considering replacing my refrigerator, I'll use the marginal rates to calculate the value of any energy savings with a new, more efficient refrigerator. Perhaps from a budgeting point of view, using averages has value for some but from the standpoint of making a decision on replacing or adding/deleting equipment, the marginal costs are the only ones that are meaningful to me because they'll let me calculate the actual changes that would show up in my monthly electricity bill.

This entire discussion reminds me of the old story regarding the man who drowned in a river whose average depth was six inches.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

This discussion reminds me of the book Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and its Consequences.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

So if Tivo implemented the change in software to spin down the drive when 'not in use' how ever we define that, the net change in power consumption would be a loss of approx 5 continuous watts. If the idle time is 50&#37; it could save 1.8 kwh a month. Approx 72 cents using the cali marginal rate above.....

We are expending energy and thought arguing over something on the order of 72 cents a month?


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> This discussion reminds me of the book Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and its Consequences.


I was reminded of the phrase, "drawing blood from a stone."

As if the heating and cooling weren't the main contributors to the electric bill. Not to mention the refrigerator, lights, and the HDTV the Tivo is connected to.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

BobCamp1 said:


> As if the heating and cooling weren't the main contributors to the electric bill. Not to mention the refrigerator, lights, and the HDTV the Tivo is connected to.


Your argument would lead me to think that since the costs of running my car are very heavily dominated by the car purchase price and the cost of gas, I don't have to be concerned about what I pay for tires. For some reason my brain doesn't seem to work that way.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

jcthorne said:


> So if Tivo implemented the change in software to spin down the drive when 'not in use' how ever we define that, the net change in power consumption would be a loss of approx 5 continuous watts. If the idle time is 50% it could save 1.8 kwh a month. Approx 72 cents using the cali marginal rate above.....
> 
> We are expending energy and thought arguing over something on the order of 72 cents a month?


How much is there for those efficient light bulbs ? I would imagine a hd would use more power then a 50 watt bulb.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

jcthorne said:


> So if Tivo implemented the change in software to spin down the drive when 'not in use' how ever we define that, the net change in power consumption would be a loss of approx 5 continuous watts. If the idle time is 50% it could save 1.8 kwh a month. Approx 72 cents using the cali marginal rate above.....
> 
> We are expending energy and thought arguing over something on the order of 72 cents a month?


$.72 would imply to me the best TiVo can do in producing an energy efficient DVR is to reduce energy by about 6% of the $12/month I'm now paying. I would agree that since the present box was not built to be highly energy efficient and yet is still competitive in today's DVR marketplace and probably very competitive energy-wise relative to using PCs as a DVR, there may not be reasonable changes which can be made at this point to significantly reduce energy costs in the current HD box.

But I would think TiVo could do a lot better than save 6% in a new box by using more energy efficient components, including wake-up timers so as to ready the box for scheduled recordings or updates and permit low energy usage states which would allow detecting remote key presses and then "wake up" rapidly. If TiVo does a good job in the future with energy efficiency, it should allow some very competitive marketing of such a new "green" box by TiVo, particularly when the rest of the U.S. realizes the impact on electricity costs resultant from renewable energy efforts by the government.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Typical hard drives draw about 5W when actively seeking, 2.5W or less when idling. If the hard drive spun down, you'd lose buffering as well as background indexing activities.

If one was seriously interested in reducing overall power consumption, you'd want to improve the efficiency of other components in the DVR as they contribute much more to the overall draw (25-40W). But at some point it starts costing more to get that bit of added efficiency - how much are you willing to pay for, say, a more efficient power supply?

I know that DTiVos stop adding to the buffer when in standby, I'm not sure if the current standalones do this. But I was unable to measure any meaningful power draw difference between standby and active.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

BobCamp1 said:


> As if the heating and cooling weren't the main contributors to the electric bill. Not to mention the refrigerator, lights, and the HDTV the Tivo is connected to.


As an aside, my 65" HDTV only takes 135 watts when it's on which is around 20% of the time. Hence, each of my four TiVos consumes considerably more energy than my HDTV (a Mits LaserVue).


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

The one thing I have noticed is that people who have never made a serious effort to control their power consumption always point to the big loads as the place to start cutting. The AC\Heat\etc. While people that have gone through this realize you can only do so much with those big loads and its everything else that returns the best reduction. Either way after you replace the big loads with the most energy efficient units you can buy you are right back to looking at the Tivo's and asking yourself if it could use less?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Look at my post #16 in this thread, I cut the power by 1/2, and I only save about $3.50/month (at $0.20/KWH), I guess that better than $0.72/month. (but I will almost double the life on the hard drive, may be another $1.60/month savings)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lessd said:


> Look at my post #16 in this thread, I cut the power by 1/2, and I only save about $3.50/month (at $0.20/KWH), I guess that better than $0.72/month. (but I will almost double the life on the hard drive, may be another $1.60/month savings)


Google did an extensive study on actual life of hard drives (they use a few) and they found that heavy use or light use made no difference. I would think that actually having that little surge of initial power each day could actually shorten the life the circuits in the drive.
But hey if it goes for 30 months then you saved up the 100$ for a new drive


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Google did an extensive study on actual life of hard drives (they use a few) and they found that heavy use or light use made no difference. I would think that actually having that little surge of initial power each day could actually shorten the life the circuits in the drive.
> But hey if it goes for 30 months then you saved up the 100$ for a new drive


I turn my computer on and off about 10 times a day (I use sleep mode, that turns off the drives) and I never had a drive go bad, using HD Tune I have about 12,000 on/off cycles without problems. (I did have two ATI display boards go bad so I keep a spare until ATI does a RMA replacement) I just put a new computer in service after 7 years using the old one with a 20" NEC CRT, that system used about 500 watts, my new I7 975 system with 25" LCD uses less than 300 watts, that is one reason I use sleep mode because at even at 300 watts it would cost me about $40/month if i left the computer on 24/7.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Videodrome said:


> How much is there for those efficient light bulbs ? I would imagine a hd would use more power then a 50 watt bulb.


No. Average HD use 5W or less continuous. The 160 I pulled out of the tivo claims 7 so a bit high by today's standards. The WD Green drive I replaced it with uses 4.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

lessd said:


> I turn my computer on and off about 10 times a day (I use sleep mode, that turns off the drives) and I never had a drive go bad, using HD Tune I have about 12,000 on/off cycles without problems. (I did have two ATI display boards go bad so I keep a spare until ATI does a RMA replacement) I just put a new computer in service after 7 years using the old one with a 20" NEC CRT, that system used about 500 watts, my new I7 975 system with 25" LCD uses less than 300 watts, that is one reason I use sleep mode because at even at 300 watts it would cost me about $40/month if i left the computer on 24/7.


This is one of the major reasons our company has almost completely stopped buying desktop computers. In general, laptops of similar performance are engineered to use far less power. Its not that energy efficient desktops could not be designed, they are just not mainstream in the market.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

The computer video system (graphics card + monitor) uses a surprising amount of the power on a normal desktop - that's what using a laptop optimizes. The disks are not all that bad.

I run a 12-disk, 15 TByte server 24x7 for my home office, and under normal use Kill-a-watt says the entire system (no monitor normally, and very cheap graphics card, but lots of fans!) is using 142 watts. It goes up to 180 watts under intense use (that seems to be mostly extra power for the overclocked CPU, not disks). One state-of-the-art graphics card itself uses about that when not being used and twice that under load!


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

stevel said:


> Typical hard drives draw about 5W when actively seeking, 2.5W or less when idling. If the hard drive spun down, you'd lose buffering as well as background indexing activities.


Those sound like numbers for 2.5 inch drives, older 3.5 inch drives are at least twice that.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

vman41 said:


> Those sound like numbers for 2.5 inch drives, older 3.5 inch drives are at least twice that.


Not really, but current "AV" rated power-saving drives are about that. Non-"green" drives do use more power. Looking at WD's web site, I see that the "Green Power" drives are 5.9W read/write, 4.9W idle. The non-GP drives are in the 8-9W range.


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