# Game of Thrones - "Blackwater" - S02E09 5/27/12



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

OH HELL NO.
Someone better tell me right now that Tyrion isn't dead or I'm going to lose my mind. 
Of course he's not dead. They wouldn't do that. Would they? Would they? I'm freaking out right now!!!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think he is Just in shock. And I'm so glad that the hound has taken sensa out of the city.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Okay more rational thoughts now that the shock has wore off. I don't think that was a fatal slash. I rewound it a few times. It's nasty but I don't think it was deep enough to kill him. (fingers crossed) So to distract myself from searching online for the answer and finding out other stuff I don't want to know, my other thoughts on the tonight. 

So we see Davos and his son go boom. I hope that doesn't mean Davos is dead, as I think he was just blown from the boat. His son though, I fear is a goner. 

So I'm wondering how Tywin ends up saving the day with the troops from Renly's army no less. That was Loras Tyrell that took his helmet off before Tywin walked in to Cercei, right?

I was really scared for Shae there for a second. I thought for sure Cercei was going to figure it out and gut her right there. She's just that evil. 

So now that the Lannister's hold the crown, what's that say for the Hound? Is he really going to get Sansa out of town and back to Winterfell? Will they capture him and call him a traitor to the crown now? I did love that Bronn saved his ass though. Very nice. I actually kind of saw that coming when they were at their stand off before it all started. I said "watch Bronn have to save him during battle" and sure enough. 

Tyrion's rallying of the troops was pretty effing awesome. I loved that he used the tunnels for battle and not escaping. How does everyone else not realize he's the only one in that family worth a crap??


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

He's not dead, just napping 

So if Sansa got out with the Hound then that means that Mommy Stark has no traded their best bargaining chip for nothing at all 

I enjoyed the episode, but can't imagine how we get any sort of "lull" in the storylines to wrap up for a season break.

Tyrion chopping off that guys leg was great.

Z


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

The scene in the throne room was chilling. I wish GRRM could write all the episodes. Of course then it would be decades before he finishes the story.

Even knowing what was coming, I was on the edge of my seat throughout. It was every bit as great an episode as I hoped. I don't want the season to end now. At least next week is listed as 70 minutes.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> How does everyone else not realize he's the only one in that family worth a crap??


He better be careful because if the general population starts favoring him he might get killed "just in case"

Z


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Rickvz said:


> The scene in the throne room was chilling. I wish GRRM could write all the episodes. Of course then it would be decades before he finishes the story.


I was really hoping she would kill her child for nothing.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rickvz said:


> At least next week is listed as 70 minutes.


It is? Damnit, I won't be watching the season finale until sometime Monday afternoon. I have my one and only DMB show next Sunday night. 



zordude said:


> He better be careful because if the general population starts favoring him he might get killed "just in case"


Am I crazy or where they all chanting "half man" after their little victory??



zordude said:


> I was really hoping she would kill her child for nothing.


OH me too me too!!! Sadly not.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

zordude said:


> I was really hoping she would kill her child for nothing.


Same here!

The Hound being afraid of fire was really great. And the look on Sansa's face as she realized how he feels about her was nicely done.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> It is? Damnit, I won't be watching the season finale until sometime Monday afternoon. I have my one and only DMB show next Sunday night.
> 
> Am I crazy or where they all chanting "half man" after their little victory??
> 
> OH me too me too!!! Sadly not.


Yes, I heard half man as well.

DMB?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Yes, I heard half man as well.
> 
> DMB?


Sorry I forget not everyone knows what that means. Dave Matthews Band


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

zordude said:


> I was really hoping she would kill her child for nothing.


I have not read the books and obviously am not paying attention 'cause I thought Joffrey was her only son


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

gossamer88 said:


> I have not read the books and obviously am not paying attention 'cause I thought Joffrey was her only son


ummm she has 3 kids! Remember her entire beef with Tyrion is because he sent her daughter, Myrcella off to Dorne?


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> I have not read the books and obviously am not paying attention 'cause I thought Joffrey was her only son


That was the youngest, Tommen. Myrcella is the daughter that was sent off to Dorne. Tyrion told Cersei last week that she had produced two good children and only one monster.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> ummm she has 3 kids! Remember her entire beef with Tyrion is because he sent her daughter, Myrcella off to Dorne?





Rickvz said:


> That was the youngest, Tommen. Myrcella is the daughter that was sent off to Dorne. Tyrion told Cersei last week that she had produced two good children and only one monster.


I know now! I also been checking out the Wiki to get me up to speed.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

gossamer88 said:


> I know now! I also been checking out the Wiki to get me up to speed.


heee just giving you a hard time


----------



## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Now we will have to see Joffrey up there next week acting I like a tough guy when he really ran like wuss. I hope he gets slapped again for it. 

We will get a Stannis beheading? Or did he get out of the city?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mwhip said:


> Now we will have to see Joffrey up there next week acting I like a tough guy when he really ran like wuss. I hope he gets slapped again for it.
> 
> We will get a Stannis beheading? Or did he get out of the city?


it looked to me like his men dragged him away. He sure is fearless.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> it looked to me like his men dragged him away. He sure is fearless.


I thought he was captured. Will have to watch again in the morning.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

People keep saying that Sansa left with the Hound, but that is far from clear to me from what I saw. Did I miss a scene?

In her room, Sansa initially said she was staying. After listening to him for a minute, it seemed that maybe she considered going with the Hound after she decided he would not hurt her, but it was not at all clear to me that she changed her mind about staying. And the scene in her room did not show her following him out the door.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I thought he was captured. Will have to watch again in the morning.


watching it right now, it looks like his men dragging him away. He wasn't trying to kill them or fight them.

One continuity problem was the cousin getting shot in the right chest with an arrow but then the queen hit him on his left to cause him great pain and to fall down.

I don't get why the King's guard guy tried to kill Tyrion...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> People keep saying that Sansa left with the Hound, but that is far from clear to me from what I saw. Did I miss a scene?
> 
> In her room, Sansa initially said she was staying. After listening to him for a minute, it seemed that maybe she considered going with the Hound after she decided he would not hurt her, but it was not at all clear to me that she changed her mind about staying. And the scene in her room did not show her following him out the door.


She's been trying to escape for months. She might be killed if she stays. This is her chance and she now has the Hound protecting her. She realizes everything and he opens the door and start out. I would be shocked if she had not gone with him.

100% it's Stannis' men dragging him away. They were fighting with him and killing the guards wearing red uniforms.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I had to laugh at the look on Tyrion's face when the men were cheering him after his (initial) victory. "Half-man! Half-man!" Like he couldn't decide whether he was flattered or insulted. "Well, at least they're cheering!"


----------



## MegaHertz67 (Apr 18, 2005)

Tyrion: Those are brave men knocking on our door...Let's go kill them.

That was awesome.!!!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Wow, this was just incredible. I think this was by far the best episode of the series yet. After all we've seen so far and all I've read about GRRM's writing style, I was convinced we'd never see a battle directly. So glad I was wrong, and it was done spectacularly.

Bet Stannis wishes he hadn't left Mellisandre behind now. He could have used some magic. I'm fairly certain Stannis escapes, but wonder what he's going to do now that his army has been decimated. I don't see him sailing off and hiding in a cave, but he's tried the traditional attack and lost. I bet we see him desperate and turning to something dark next time.

Did we have any clue that Loras had teamed up with Tywin? Did we see any of his men consulting with Tywin before and I was just asleep?

So when someone first turned me onto this series, they said it was sort of Lord of the Rings like. In a very vague way it is, but I don't really see it for the most part. However (LotR spoilers below for anyone who's lived in a cave but still might want to see/read it):


Spoiler



First, Sean bean dies at the end (more or less) of season/part 1. Then season/part 2 ends with a huge battle for a fortress, where a magic explosive plays a huge role (though wielded by the opposite side here), and then the battle is saved by an unexpectedly arriving calvalry.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Did we have any clue that Loras had teamed up with Tywin? *Did we see any of his men consulting with Tywin before and I was just asleep?*


No, but we saw Littlefinger consulting with Margaery Tyrell.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

john4200 said:


> People keep saying that Sansa left with the Hound, but that is far from clear to me from what I saw. Did I miss a scene?


No you didn't. I didn't see her actually leave either, which is why I was speculating on if they'd make it or he'd be called a traitor.



Anubys said:


> I don't get why the King's guard guy tried to kill Tyrion...


This! WTF. I think it was the blonde looking guy they kept showing when he was giving his rally speech. I could be wrong. Must rewatch again in a bit.



cherry ghost said:


> No, but we saw Littlefinger consulting with Margaery Tyrell.


Ah yes! Of course. She wants to be queen and Loras wants to get Stannis. That would make perfect sense for them to team up.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Ah yes! Of course. She wants to be queen and Loras wants to get Stannis. That would make perfect sense for them to team up.


Yeah, I was just remembering that this morning. And I bet she gets it (her family having just saved the day), no matter whether Sansa runs away or not. Sansa offers nothing to Joffrey, and he seems to despise her.

Speeking of Loras, I think I got a few characters mixed up. Who was it that took the arrow to the chest, and then was trying to convince Cersie to send Joffrey back to the battle? I was thinking it was Loras at the time, but that obviously doesn't make sense. Was it the relative she started sleeping with after Jamie was captured? But this guy seemed to have a bit more spine than that guy.

Tywin is not going to be a happy man once he learns all that went on...Cersie pulling Joffrey from battle, Joffrey being a coward, Sansa presumable getting away (though I agree it's not clear that she actually left). The only thing he IS going to be happy about it Tyrion's performance. My guess is he now brings Tyrion in on the war vs Robb. Cersie deserves at least a little credit, for having been responsible for the manufacture of the "pig ****" (even if it's Tyrion that gets credit for that fantastic explosion), but I doubt she'll get it.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> > I don't get why the King's guard guy tried to kill Tyrion...
> 
> 
> This! WTF. I think it was the blonde looking guy they kept showing when he was giving his rally speech. I could be wrong. Must rewatch again in a bit.


Yeah, I'm going to have to watch it again to see. If it was, the only thing that comes to mind was something Cersie said about not being able to trust the Kings Guard to remain loyal once Stannis breaches the wall. Maybe he thought Stannis' win was inevitable at that point and decided to back the winning team.


----------



## steverm2 (May 10, 2005)

Why was the fire/explosion green?


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

steverm2 said:


> Why was the fire/explosion green?


Because they used the wildfire gel stuff that the pyromancers created a few weeks back.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

steverm2 said:


> Why was the fire/explosion green?


Wildfire. It burns on water. We saw jars of it previously, and it's green.



LordKronos said:


> Speeking of Loras, I think I got a few characters mixed up. Who was it that took the arrow to the chest, and then was trying to convince Cersie to send Joffrey back to the battle? I was thinking it was Loras at the time, but that obviously doesn't make sense.


Her cousin, Lancel.



> Was it the relative she started sleeping with after Jamie was captured?


Yes.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

steverm2 said:


> Why was the fire/explosion green?


It's supposed to be what the ancients called "Greek Fire," which burned green according to legend.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Agree with Ereth: Cousin took the arrow and yelled at Cersei to bring Joffrey to battle.

Loras then came in with Tywin to save the day.

You guys are crazy if you think Sansa stayed!

I wonder if Cersei is behind the assassination attempt on Tyrion.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Just watched it again. This time I'm certain that Sansa followed the Hound. First time through the ending of that scene seemed longer than it actually was, and it seemed like Sansa didn't follow. Watching again, it was only a split second after the hound opened the door before the scene ended. That scene didn't play out quite the way I thought it did last night either. I thought the hound vaguely threatened her, she told him "you won't hurt me", and he turned and left. Now that I heard it better, I realized the "you won't hurt me" was not an instruction but a realization. I'm 99% certain she followed him.

Also loved Stanis' partial-beheading. That guy is brave. Was at the front of the landing party, first to run to the walls, first up the ladder. As terrible as he may be, he is a king that inspires his troops.

Also, I'm fairly certain the guy that swung at Tyrion was the guard that Joffrey told to "represent the king on the battlefield" just before tucking his tail between his legs and running to see if his mother had "urgent matters" with him.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I loved the initial exchange between Tyrion and Joffrey. "Tell the hound to tell the king" and the quarter-man parts were great.

I also went back and checked last week. I thought Tywin was riding off to fight Robb, but I see now they were carefully misleading on that. The only thing he said was about leaving at night to get a days ride before Robb's men notice. I thought he was going after Robb. But I see now he was talking about being worried about leaving Casterly Rock undefended, and wanted make sure Robb had as little time as possible to capitalize on that fact.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)




----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Agree with Ereth: Cousin took the arrow and yelled at Cersei to bring Joffrey to battle.
> 
> Loras then came in with Tywin to save the day.


<shakes head>
You people really need to pay more attention.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> <shakes head>
> You people really need to pay more attention.


To be fair, these foppish blond noblemen do all kinda look alike...


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I loved the initial exchange between Tyrion and Joffrey. "Tell the hound to tell the king" and the quarter-man parts were great.
> 
> I also went back and checked last week. I thought Tywin was riding off to fight Robb, but I see now they were carefully misleading on that. The only thing he said was about leaving at night to get a days ride before Robb's men notice. I thought he was going after Robb. But I see now he was talking about being worried about leaving Casterly Rock undefended, and wanted make sure Robb had as little time as possible to capitalize on that fact.


They weren't at Casterly Rock, they were at Harrenhall (sp?), which wasn't in the credits this week actually.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> To be fair, these foppish blond noblemen do all kinda look alike...


Maybe it's a girl thing because I think they look nothing alike. I wasn't 1000% positive it was Loras who entered with Tywin until I went back and looked again but I knew who the weirdo Lannister boy, Lancel was. Loras is much better looking.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I thought he was captured. Will have to watch again in the morning.


Sorry. Who needs to pay more attention?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

NoThru22 said:


> They weren't at Casterly Rock, they were at Harrenhall (sp?), which wasn't in the credits this week actually.


I think he meant Tywin was worried about leaving Kings Landing undefended. 
We knew they were at Harrenhal, they've been there. And yes, it actually was in the credits.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> Sorry. Who needs to pay more attention?


Heee!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> They weren't at Casterly Rock, they were at Harrenhall


I know, but they were talking last week about whether or not Robb might march on Casterly Rock. Castlerly Rock isn't all that far from Harrenhall (I believe Robb is between the 2 in Riverrun), so I assume Harrenhall was serving partially as a defense for Casterly Rock. If Tywin abaondoned Harrenhall, then Robb doesn't have to worry about 2 fronts and can turn his attention directly to Casterly Rock.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NoThru22 said:


> They weren't at Casterly Rock, they were at Harrenhall (sp?), which wasn't in the credits this week actually.





photoshopgrl said:


> I think he meant Tywin was worried about leaving Kings Landing undefended.


But when Tywin was talking about stealing a march on Robb, it was in the context of Robb possibly marching on Casterly Rock. So they were tricking us unto thinking Tywin was going off in the middle of the night to protect Casterly Rock from Robb, when in fact he wanted to get to King's Landing and deal with the situation there before Robb had a chance to realize what was going on and interfere.

Can you imagine how Blackwater would have turned out had Robb launched a sneak attack on Tywin's sneak attack on Stannis's men's sneak attack on Tyrion's sneak attack on Stannis?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I think he meant Tywin was worried about leaving Kings Landing undefended.


No, I was talking about Casterly Rock. Last week was the whole discussion about Robb attacking Casterly Rock. Other guy said he'd never do it, and Tywin said Robb hadn't lost a fight and doesn't know enough to be afraid, thus he could be willing to make such a bold move. If Robb moved on Casterly Rock, then Tywin would surely be needed to help defend it. By Tywin moving to Kings Landing, he was leaving Casterly Rock more vulnerable.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> I know, but they were talking last week about whether or not Robb might march on Casterly Rock. Castlerly Rock isn't all that far from Harrenhall (I believe Robb is between the 2 in Riverrun), so I assume Harrenhall was serving partially as a defense for Casterly Rock. If Tywin abaondoned Harrenhall, then Robb doesn't have to worry about 2 fronts and can turn his attention directly to Casterly Rock.


Harrenhal isn't anywhere near Casterly Rock though. It's close to Kings Landing though.


----------



## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

It was Loras who came in with Tywin. Guess they made a deal after Renly was killed and she was widowed. 

If Sansa didn't leave she better leave quick because I am sure the deal Loras made with Tywin includes Margery marrying Joffrey. Then the Lannisters have no use for Sansa really unless Jamie shows up for the exchange.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> <shakes head>
> You people really need to pay more attention.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> To be fair, these foppish blond noblemen do all kinda look alike...


ok...I don't know what I'm missing still...can you tell me?

The blonde guy who showed up with Tywin is the rose knight. I thought his name was Loras, but I could be wrong. Am I right about who he is and just got the name wrong, or both?

I can see why he would align with the Lanisters; to avenge his lover's death at Stannis' hands and (as pointed out earlier here) to give Joffrey a queen (his sister).


----------



## steverm2 (May 10, 2005)

thanx. missed the making of wildfire.ill look for it on second series rewatch.

on most tv series you wonder what the cliffhanger will be.i wonder how many cliffhangers there will be


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Okay this is exactly what was said last week:

Kevan: Kings Landing will fall an hour after Stannis lands his forces. It's not too late for King Joffrey and Cercei and the forces to ride West to safety.
Tywin: Surrender the iron throne?
Kevan: Better than seeing their heads mounted on the iron gates! Stannis will execute them all. 
Tywin: No. A king who runs will not be king for long. He's a Lannister. He'll stand a fight. Stannis, 2 days from the capitol and the wolf at my door step.
Kevan: Scouts assure that Robb Stark remains north of Ashemark
Tywin: <laughs> The last time a scout assured us of Stark's movements, he lured us into a trap....which is why my son is his prisoner. Too close to Casterly Rock.
Kevan: He sent a splinter force to recapture Winterfell. The Greyjoys have done us a great favor. Stark won't risk marching on Casterly Rock until he's at full force.
Tywin: He's a boy and he's never lost a battle. He'll risk anything at anytime because he doesn't know enough to be afraid. <pause> We'll ride at night fall. I want a full night's march before he knows we're on the move.

Then he instructs Clegane to stay and track down the Brotherhood.

So yeah, major misdirection.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> ok...I don't know what I'm missing still...can you tell me?
> 
> The blonde guy who showed up with Tywin is the rose knight. I thought his name was Loras, but I could be wrong. Am I right about who he is and just got the name wrong, or both?
> 
> I can see why he would align with the Lanisters; to avenge his lover's death at Stannis' hands and (as pointed out earlier here) to give Joffrey a queen (his sister).


You are correct. Loras is the rose knight that was in love with Renly and so he's obviously aligned with Tywin. 
Lancel is the blonde Lannister that Cercei was sleeping with and that Tyrion was forcing to spy. He's also the one that kept reporting back to Cercei during the battle that she instructed to take Joffrey to safety.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> Also loved Stanis' partial-beheading. That guy is brave. Was at the front of the landing party, first to run to the walls, first up the ladder. As terrible as he may be, he is a king that inspires his troops.


Yeah, Stanis has a lot of the qualities you want in a king. He's just humorless and would never be well liked. Still you could have done a lot worse (Joffrey) until the Red Lady came along. Like Varys said, now he owes everything to the dark magic. He's probably never going to go anywhere without her again.



mwhip said:


> If Sansa didn't leave she better leave quick because I am sure the deal Loras made with Tywin includes Margery marrying Joffrey. Then the Lannisters have no use for Sansa really unless Jamie shows up for the exchange.


I think as long as Jamie is missing they will keep Sansa alive. Margery would be better able to handle Joffrey than Sansa, but still not sure the power would be worth it.

Funny how nobody gets the idea of the Hound being terrified of fire. You'd think they would just work around it--send him to the less flammable areas--if there are any....


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Harrenhal isn't anywhere near Casterly Rock though. It's close to Kings Landing though.


In terms ability to fight off Robb, Harrenhal is pretty close to Casterly Rock. It puts Robb right in the middle at Riverrun (though if the Ashemark comment is accurate, that puts Robb much closer to Casterly Rock), and makes Harrenhall effectively a defense for Casterly Rock. If Robb moves on Casterly Rock and Tywin has adequate notice, Tywin can move in behind fast enough to help defend.

But the main point was, it was a huge misdirection for the viewers. We thought Tywin was moving to fight Robb, but he was actually moving to fight Stannis.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Yeah, Stanis has a lot of the qualities you want in a king. He's just humorless and would never be well liked.


And perhaps more importantly, he's a religious fanatic...for a foreign religion.


stellie93 said:


> Funny how nobody gets the idea of the Hound being terrified of fire. You'd think they would just work around it--send him to the less flammable areas--if there are any....


But nobody knows...it's not exactly the kind of thing he would bring up, and I doubt anybody considers "things the Hound is afraid of" when deciding how to deploy him in combat.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> In terms ability to fight off Robb, Harrenhal is pretty close to Casterly Rock. It puts Robb right in the middle at Riverrun (though if the Ashemark comment is accurate, that puts Robb much closer to Casterly Rock), and makes Harrenhall effectively a defense for Casterly Rock. If Robb moves on Casterly Rock and Tywin has adequate notice, Tywin can move in behind fast enough to help defend.


Gotcha :up:


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Funny how nobody gets the idea of the Hound being terrified of fire. You'd think they would just work around it--send him to the less flammable areas--if there are any....


Oh crap, I didn't do the math on that one, even after a few other here mentioned it. His face was burned. He's terrified of the fire. Totally missed that. I was thinking he was just freaked out and overwhelmed by impending defeat. Whooosh.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Have we seen/heard what happened to the Hound? I don't recall but it may have been mentioned season 1 and I forgot.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> Have we seen/heard what happened to the Hound? I don't recall but it may have been mentioned season 1 and I forgot.


The Mountain shoved his face in a fire when they were kids.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

cherry ghost said:


> The Mountain shoved his face in a fire when they were kids.


The Mountain = Clegane, correct?


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And perhaps more importantly, he's a religious fanatic...for a foreign religion.
> 
> But nobody knows...it's not exactly the kind of thing he would bring up, and I doubt anybody considers "things the Hound is afraid of" when deciding how to deploy him in combat.


I guess I'm thinking of Stanis more as wanting the power so badly that he goes along with the religion than really being a believer. It's bad either way.

I'm assuming that people know that fire disfigured him. I guess it could be a birth defect or something. Since fire is everywhere in this world, you'd think it would have come up before this.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> The Mountain = Clegane, correct?


yes, they're brothers


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Have we seen/heard what happened to the Hound? I don't recall but it may have been mentioned season 1 and I forgot.


His brother, the Mountain, shoved his face into the fire. In the show this was told to Sansa by Littlefinger at the joust in the first season.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

stellie93 said:


> I guess I'm thinking of Stanis more as wanting the power so badly that he goes along with the religion than really being a believer. It's bad either way.
> 
> I'm assuming that people know that fire disfigured him. I guess it could be a birth defect or something. Since fire is everywhere in this world, you'd think it would have come up before this.


I'm sure they all know what happened. That doesn't necessarily mean they would assume he's afraid of it. He doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would allow anyone to see him fear anything.

I agree about Stannis. I think Davos is the same. Matthos, on the other hand, seemed to be a true believer.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rickvz said:


> His brother, the Mountain, shoved his face into the fire. In the show this was told to Sansa by Littlefinger at the joust in the first season.


Yup as soon as Cherry reminded me they were brothers I remembered this. He frightened her into thinking she couldn't look at him.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> The Mountain = Clegane, correct?


Yes. The Mountain (Ser Gregor Clegane) is the older brother and the hound (can't recall his first name) is the younger brother. During the tournament for the Kings Hand, Littlefinger was telling Sansa the story about how the hound got that way. Gregor shoved the hounds face into the fire because he caught the hound playing with one of Gregor's toys. It shows how brutal Gregor was even as a boy.

That story was what also added some drama to the part where, during the next part of the tournament when Gregor lost and went nuts attacking Knight of Flowers, the hound jumped down there and went to battle against his brother.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Thanks to the posters for explaining why Hound decided "Bleep this, I'm outta here." I had no idea why he turned tail.

That wild fire scene was awesome. All of the Lannister forces were in shock except Joffrey and the old dude who supplied the wild fire hot sauce.

Joffrey's a sissy.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> All of the Lannister forces were in shock except Joffrey and the old dude who supplied the wild fire hot sauce.


And Joffrey's look was just "oh my gosh...I'm NOT going to die"


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> And Joffrey's look was just "oh my gosh...I'm NOT going to die"


And then he went from whimpering like a whipped dog to blustering bravado...until he realized he still had a fight on his hands, which brought him back to whimpering like a whipped dog until Mommy saved him by calling him away from the battle.

Yeah, none of THAT will ever come back to haunt him!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> until Mommy saved him by calling him away from the battle.


"Did she have urgent business with me". Yeah, because, you know...I'm fighting this war right now, but I guess if something REALLY important has come up...

I just now noticed the real humor in that knight attacking Tyrion. His instruction from Joffrey were "stay with my uncle and represent the king on the field of battle". Well, I guess that was a pretty accurate representation of the king.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Okay watching this again for the third time now... heh... did we know that the Hound didn't like Bronn before this? Do we know why? I feel like I've missed something.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay watching this again for the third time now... heh... did we know that the Hound didn't like Bronn before this? Do we know why? I feel like I've missed something.


I don't recall anything of the sort. I assume it's a rivalry between alpha males.

so if I got the details right, why were you and Rob (ok, with Rob, it's just rivalry between a genius and a wanna be ) making fun of me?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> so if I got the details right, why were you and Rob (ok, with Rob, it's just rivalry between a genius and a wanna be ) making fun of me?


Sorry my post was quoting you but I was just making jabs in general. The wink was because I get confused over things too but was giving a hard time as if I don't.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Sorry my post was quoting you but I was just making jabs in general. The wink was because I get confused over things too but was giving a hard time as if I don't.


She was making fun of me for not realizing until the end that it wasn't Loras we were seing all along.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay watching this again for the third time now... heh... did we know that the Hound didn't like Bronn before this? Do we know why? I feel like I've missed something.


I got the impression the hound doesn't really like anyone (except maybe Sansa), but nothing particular against Bronn.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Yes. The Mountain (Ser Gregor Clegane) is the older brother and the hound (can't recall his first name) is the younger brother.


Sandor, but they rarely used it in the TV show, so there's no real reason to remember.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

So at the end, when the cavalry rides in and Tyrion is lying on the ground, what banner/sigil is it that they are carrying. When I watched it the first time, I thought it was the Lion and instantly assumed it was Tywin. Watching it today, it occurs at the same time that Cersie is telling the story about the Stags coming howling in the night and stuff, and it seems they're trying to build it up as if they are enemies. Then there is the delay between Loras busting in Tywin entering. Seems like they were trying to build it up to give the false impression they were with Stannis, but the Lion sigil (if I see it correct) sort of ruins that twist if you are paying attention.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay watching this again for the third time now


You know, I've got the day off work and nowhere to go. I'm really fighting the urge to just give up everything I wanted to accomplish today and instead just watch this episode like 10 times.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> You know, I've got the day off work and nowhere to go. I'm really fighting the urge to just give up everything I wanted to accomplish today and instead just watch this episode like 10 times.


Do it!

And the more I watch this, the more convinced I am that Cercei is behind the attempt on Tyrion's life.

I also just read something that I didn't mean to read and now I'm really really sad.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> So at the end, when the cavalry rides in and Tyrion is lying on the ground, what banner/sigil is it that they are carrying.


Pretty sure it was the flower sigil - which represents House Tyrell of Highgarden.

Btw - as a book reader - I'm really proud of you non book readers. You have things pretty well figured out.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> So at the end, when the cavalry rides in and Tyrion is lying on the ground, what banner/sigil is it that they are carrying. When I watched it the first time, I thought it was the Lion and instantly assumed it was Tywin. Watching it today, it occurs at the same time that Cersie is telling the story about the Stags coming howling in the night and stuff, and it seems they're trying to build it up as if they are enemies. Then there is the delay between Loras busting in Tywin entering. Seems like they were trying to build it up to give the false impression they were with Stannis, but the Lion sigil (if I see it correct) sort of ruins that twist if you are paying attention.


When I watched a second time, the flag was really flapping in the wind and I could not tell whose it was. OTOH, it was clear that the cavalry was there attacking and thwarting the rush from Stannis' men.

One thing I learned from Cercei is that the "fox" is in the south. Is that Loras?

Stags are the Baratheons
Wolf: Starks
Lion: Lannisters
Dragons: Targarians
Fish: Cat's people (ha ha!), Tully?

Not sure what the sigil is for the Greyjoys.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> When I watched a second time, the flag was really flapping in the wind and I could not tell whose it was. OTOH, it was clear that the cavalry was there attacking and thwarting the rush from Stannis' men.
> 
> One thing I learned from Cercei is that the "fox" is in the south. Is that Loras?
> 
> Not sure what the sigil is for the Greyjoys.


Loras is of house Highgarden and their sigil is a rose.

Greyjoys sigil is the kraken.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Anubys said:


> When I watched a second time, the flag was really flapping in the wind and I could not tell whose it was. OTOH, it was clear that the cavalry was there attacking and thwarting the rush from Stannis' men.
> 
> One thing I learned from Cercei is that the "fox" is in the south. Is that Loras?
> 
> ...


All correct. The Fox is house Florent - a "minor" house under the Tyrells. The sigil for the Greyjoy is the Kraken.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> So at the end, when the cavalry rides in and Tyrion is lying on the ground, what banner/sigil is it that they are carrying. When I watched it the first time, I thought it was the Lion and instantly assumed it was Tywin. Watching it today, it occurs at the same time that Cersie is telling the story about the Stags coming howling in the night and stuff, and it seems they're trying to build it up as if they are enemies. Then there is theil delay between Loras busting in Tywin entering. Seems like they were trying to build it up to give the false impression they were with Stannis, but the Lion sigil (if I see it correct) sort of ruins that twist if you are paying attention.


I froze and replayed to see. I say the sigil was a cheat. It was a composite of the lion, wolf, and stag shapes.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I also just read something that I didn't mean to read and now I'm really really sad.


That's what you get for reading. But since you said "really really sad", and I know how you feel about Tyrion...you better not have just spoiled that. That would just be too lame of an ending for him...a relatively minor slice to the face. He would deserve to go out much more spectacularly. Maybe like barber Stannis' "a little off the top" cut.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> That's what you get for reading. But since you said "really really sad", and I know how you feel about Tyrion...you better not have just spoiled that. That would just be too lame of an ending for him...a relatively minor slice to the face. He would deserve to go out much more spectacularly. Maybe like barber Stannis' "a little off the top" cut.


I wouldn't do that. No it wasn't about Tyrion.
EDIT: To clarify I was searching for images of the house sigils and accidentally saw something that happens in the books that I did not want to know.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I think since "the history is written by the survivors" Tywin will hear from Cersie that Jeffy was the gallant hero and Tyrion was a stooge.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

netringer said:


> I think since "the history is written by the survivors" Tywin will hear from Cersie that Jeffy was the gallant hero and Tyrion was a stooge.


And thus will justify the guard attempting to kill him during battle. They'll probably call him the coward or say he was doing something to warrant it. Argh. Will Tyrion never get any respect?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> When I watched a second time, the flag was really flapping in the wind and I could not tell whose it was.


Here's a screencap:









Looks most like the lion, but not really exactly like any of them. If it would have been clearly the flower that might have made it a bit more dramatic for me.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> One thing I learned from Cercei is that the "fox" is in the south. Is that Loras?


She wasn't really clear on what she was talking about, because I think at one point she said "the bears in the north", but Starks are a wolf, and I don't know anyone who is a bear.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> She wasn't really clear on what she was talking about, because I think at one point she said "the bears in the north", but Starks are a wolf, and I don't know anyone who is a bear.


Here's all the houses and their sigils. It's on spoilertv but if you just view the page I am linking there are no spoilers just the images of the houses sigils.
http://www.spoilertv.co.uk/images/game-of-thrones/Misc/Thomas Gateley House Posters

So the Fox would be House Clegane
Bear would be House Mormont


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> And the more I watch this, the more convinced I am that Cercei is behind the attempt on Tyrion's life.


I thought Tyrion was attacked by one of Stannis' guys and got knocked out as usual. I need a version of this show with those popup balloons that tell me what the hell's going on.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

cheesesteak said:


> I thought Tyrion was attacked by one of Stannis' guys and got knocked out as usual. I need a version of this show with those popup balloons that tell me what the hell's going on.


Whoever the guy in the helmet was that Joffrey instructed to stay and help Tryion. He initially saves Tyrion from one of Stannis' men. Then Tyrion turns to smile at this guy, still wearing his helmet, and the guy just strikes down on him. Would have killed him if not for Tyrion's little guy... damnit, name escaping me, starts with a P I think. Anyhow, he spears the guy and runs to catch a falling Tyrion.

EDIT: It's not him that saves Tryion from Stannis' men either, watched again just now. Someone runs it and tackles the guy fighting with Tyrion. Then you see this big helmet dude and Tryion smiles at him then dude strikes him.


----------



## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

mostman said:


> Btw - as a book reader -
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Stop this. Please. Every single episode thread... sheesh.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Would have killed him if not for Tyrion's little guy... damnit, name escaping me, starts with a P I think. Anyhow, he spears the guy and runs to catch a falling Tyrion.


Didn't know his name but when Varys says it, it sounds like "podrake" That was close enough to google it and find out his name is (spoilered, becuase I'm not sure if we've learned his full name yet)


Spoiler



Podrick Payne


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Tyrions squire is named Podrick.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Stannis still has the witch up his sleeve, correct? They'd better kill him soon.

What happened to the rest of the Lannister fleet?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

cheesesteak said:


> Stannis still has the witch up his sleeve, correct? They'd better kill him soon.


Well he _did _until he left her behind. Not sure if she'll welcome him with open arms now!


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

mostman said:


> Btw - as a book reader - I'm really proud of you non book readers. You have things pretty well figured out.





dtivouser said:


> Stop this. Please. Every single episode thread... sheesh.


Er, what? There's no spoiler in that comment. Mostman is just saying he's impressed with how well the TV show watchers are following along with the intricate plot and large number of characters, and keeping it all straight. He's not commenting on whether speculation about the future is accurate or not (at least that's not how I read it).

I actually haven't read much future speculation yet in this thread. C'mon folks, that's the best part of these threads! Get speculatin'!


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Nobody mentioned! We now know that the GoT theme song is the Lannister hymn and we heard the lyrics to it. TWICE!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> What happened to the rest of the
> Lannister fleet?


Good question. The point of a fleet is for ship vs ship warfare. I assume they figured there would be no need after the green explosion, so they probably just left everything else in dock, and instead of manning all those ships for a fight at sea that likely wouldn't happen, they figured it best to keep the men in Kings Landing to fight were they'd be more useful.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

netringer said:


> Nobody mentioned! We now know that the GoT theme song is the Lannister hymn and we heard the lyrics to it. TWICE!


Huh? I don't hear that. I can't seem to relate it to the theme song, neither when Bronn is singing it, nor in the credits.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay watching this again for the third time now... heh... did we know that the Hound didn't like Bronn before this? Do we know why? I feel like I've missed something.


As said before, the Hound (Sandor Clegane) hates everyone. At the moment Bronn was in a happy mood, Sandor probably just wanted to spoil it.



LordKronos said:


> She wasn't really clear on what she was talking about, because I think at one point she said "the bears in the north", but Starks are a wolf, and I don't know anyone who is a bear.


Mormonts are the bear sigil. Both the head of the Night's watch (The guy Jon Show serves), and his son Ser Jorah (with Danny Targaryn in Qarth) are both Mormonts. Also when the Senior Mormont gave Jon Snow the fancy *Valyrian Steel* sword "Long Claw" he said he had the smith change the hilt from a bear to a wolf.



cheesesteak said:


> I thought Tyrion was attacked by one of Stannis' guys and got knocked out as usual. I need a version of this show with those popup balloons that tell me what the hell's going on.


When I bought the season 1 discs I was kind of hoping for a pop up video playback. Would make introducing new people to the show easier. 



LordKronos said:


> Didn't know his name but when Varys says it, it sounds like "podrake" That was close enough to google it and find out his name is (spoilered, becuase I'm not sure if we've learned his full name yet)
> [I removed the spoiler]
> Podrick Payne


They have said his name. It was just mentioned off hand in an earlier episode.

Loved the episode..... Unfortunately any comments I have correlate to how it's different from the book. So I can't really comment...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

netringer said:


> Nobody mentioned! We now know that the GoT theme song is the Lannister hymn and we heard the lyrics to it. TWICE!





LordKronos said:


> Huh? I don't hear that. I can't seem to relate it to the theme song, neither when Bronn is singing it, nor in the credits.


I love the theme song and I certainly did not notice that it was the same as the song they were singing.

Better watch the episode a third time just to make sure!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

(Thank you, io9)


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I was actually surprised to get "The Rains of Castamere" in the TV Show. It's so much more about background and TV time is so short. But it was great to hear it!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Varys: "I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting"
Tyrion: "I'm entirely sure that you're entirely sure what I'm suggesting"


Bron: "Do you know how to use that?"
Tyrion: "I chopped wood once. No. I watched my brother chopping wood"
Bron: "I saw you kill a man with a shield. You'll be unstoppable with an ax"

Back to watching!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

What does it say about me that I agree with everything Cersei is telling Sansa?

Also, the flaming arrows look cool; but totally not necessary. You can fire twice as many arrows if you don't need to set them on fire first.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Here's a screencap:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was able to freeze frame at the right moment (I don't know how to do a screen cap) and it was clearly the Lion sigil. No rose there.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Also, the flaming arrows look cool; but totally not necessary. You can fire twice as many arrows if you don't need to set them on fire first.


But you can scare ten times as many people s#!%less by setting them on fire.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Ereth said:


> I was actually surprised to get "The Rains of Castamere" in the TV Show. It's so much more about background and TV time is so short. But it was great to hear it!


That's it. I'm never ever googling anything GoT related again. Was looking up this Rains of Castamere and learned something else I didn't want to know! GAH!



Anubys said:


> Varys: "I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting"
> Tyrion: "I'm entirely sure that you're entirely sure what I'm suggesting"


I loved this exchange! And then Varys just goes on about whatever he was saying.



Anubys said:


> What does it say about me that I agree with everything Cersei is telling Sansa?


She wasn't wrong, especially about having a more powerful weapon than tears.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But you can scare ten times as many people s#!%less by setting them on fire.


Unfortunately, including their own Hound!

If Arya can figure out how to make H'gkar (whatever a man's name is) loyal to her, all the Stark women would have a fearless warrior as a protector. Kat has the big woman, Sansa has the Hound. That's on top of the wolves for each Stark kid (minus Lady, of course).



photoshopgrl said:


> That's it. I'm never ever googling anything GoT related again. Was looking up this Rains of Castamere and learned something else I didn't want to know! GAH!


Photoshopgrl: "fool me 10 times about the same thing, shame on you. But that 11th time is the last straw, darn it!"


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> If Arya can figure out how to make H'gkar (whatever a man's name is) loyal to her, all the Stark women would have a fearless warrior as a protector. Kat has the big woman, Sansa has the Hound. That's on top of the wolves for each Stark kid (minus Lady, of course).


Jaqen H'ghar although I still cannot say first or last name. I need it spelled phonetically.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> What does it say about me that I agree with everything Cersei is telling Sansa?


True mostly, but she doesn't have to be a ***** about it "fitting...the men will bleed out there and you'll bleed in here". Belittling her for praying, for the way she drinks her wine, referring to them all as frightened hens.

I didn't quite get the part about yielding to stannis at the walls. What did she mean by that vs "a private audience" (ie: offering herself)?



> Also, the flaming arrows look cool; but totally not necessary. You can fire twice as many arrows if you don't need to set them on fire first.


Actually, quite necessary. It's night. It's difficult to see who or what is on the beach. Each flaming arrow adds a little bit of light so you can see whats going on. Also, I think proper training is that you always ready your bow with it aimed towards the ground and then aim up to your target. If you do that, there's no extra work in having a fire sitting there.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> I didn't quite get the part about yielding to stannis at the walls. What did she mean by that vs "a private audience" (ie: offering herself)?


Yes and then she said she'd have better chance seducing his horse. Ha!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> That's it. I'm never ever googling anything GoT related again. Was looking up this Rains of Castamere and learned something else I didn't want to know! GAH!


Dang, not your day. I too was curios about "Rains of Castamere". I don't remember hearing that in any episode so far. What did I miss? What does it refer to that we've already seen (without spoiling anything we didn't)?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> So the Fox would be House Clegane
> Bear would be House Mormont


Clegane is Three Dogs



photoshopgrl said:


> That's it. I'm never ever googling anything GoT related again. Was looking up this Rains of Castamere and learned something else I didn't want to know! GAH!


Might as well read the books now.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Yes and then she said she'd have better chance seducing his horse. Ha!


Horse? Oh, I thought she said whores. Now I'm having a Viserys flashback.

But no, obviously when she said "a private audience" she was talking about seducing him. But since that wouldn't work with him, she said she would go to the walls and yield to him in person. That's the part I didn't get. What, just begging for the lives of all the women or something?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> Dang, not your day. I too was curios about "Rains of Castamere". I don't remember hearing that in any episode so far. What did I miss? What does it refer to that we've already seen (without spoiling anything we didn't)?


I just went to see if I could find the lyrics or where it came from because I didn't know what he meant. Don't google it! 
And never ever _ever _go to the wiki for awoiaf.westeros.org unless you want spoilers.



cherry ghost said:


> Clegane is Three Dogs
> Might as well read the books now.


Oh well then I don't know which would be the fox. None that I saw. 
And no I'm just going to stick to HBO site from now on. I know a couple of things and I don't want to know more!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> Horse? Oh, I thought she said whores. Now I'm having a Viserys flashback.
> 
> But no, obviously when she said "a private audience" she was talking about seducing him. But since that wouldn't work with him, she said she would go to the walls and yield to him in person. That's the part I didn't get. What, just begging for the lives of all the women or something?


Oh I guess she could have said whores.... maybe she did considering they came on boats and not horses. hmmm


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> That's it. I'm never ever googling anything GoT related again. Was looking up this Rains of Castamere and learned something else I didn't want to know! GAH!


The song refers to an event that occurs long before the books/show. As such I don't think it's a spoiler, the common refrain of the song itself is sung in the show and again in the credits, but because people are so touchy, I will spoilerize this. I refer here to nothing that will occur in the future, only a brief explanation of the words of the song, that refer to an event that has passed. 


Spoiler



The words in the song refer to Tywin Lannister destroying completely a minor house that dared to stand up to him. The rains fall on Castamere but nobody is there to hear, because they don't exist any more. The song is used to remind people of the price of angering the Lannisters. It goes hand in foot with "A Lannister always pays his debts", which is a double-edged mantra.


It's only important in that it gives you background and insight into the Lannisters (it is referred to as the Lannisters song in the show). It is not about anything that happens in the series, though it informs the actions of people we are dealing with, much like Greyjoys Rebellion or even Roberts Rebellion does. Todays events are shaped by history, and there is simply more time to explore that history in the pages of a book than there is in a TV show.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Dang, not your day. I too was curios about "Rains of Castamere". I don't remember hearing that in any episode so far. What did I miss? What does it refer to that we've already seen (without spoiling anything we didn't)?


Think of it as the Lannister anthem. It's about Tywin squashing a rebellion when he was younger and the Hand of the king.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Thanks. I didn't realize that was the lannister song Bronn was singing with the guards.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> I just went to see if I could find the lyrics or where it came from because I didn't know what he meant. Don't google it!
> And never ever _ever _go to the wiki for awoiaf.westeros.org unless you want spoilers.


Pro tip. Use towerofthehand.com. It lets you set scope - meaning it will block future spoilers. Set your scope to the first book. Once the season is over - then set it to the second.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

madscientist said:


> Er, what? There's no spoiler in that comment. Mostman is just saying he's impressed with how well the TV show watchers are following along with the intricate plot and large number of characters, and keeping it all straight. He's not commenting on whether speculation about the future is accurate or not (at least that's not how I read it).


Thank you. Yes - this was EXACTLY my point. You people are over sensitive. I would never spoil the plot to this series. It's just too awesome to ruin it for people. Like the end of season one - why on earth would we spoil that?!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

mostman said:


> Pro tip. Use towerofthehand.com. It lets you set scope - meaning it will block future spoilers. Set your scope to the first book. Once the season is over - then set it to the second.


Thank you! Set it and bookmarked!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

mostman said:


> Pro tip. Use towerofthehand.com. It lets you set scope - meaning it will block future spoilers. Set your scope to the first book. Once the season is over - then set it to the second.


The danger there is that the show doesn't exactly follow the book. As has been pointed out, some of the events we've seen this season won't happen until book 3 or 4. Likewise, I suppose there's the possibility that some of the stuff that happened in book 2 might not show up until season 3 or 4 (don't know, haven't read the books, but just guessing).


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh I guess she could have said whores.... maybe she did considering they came on boats and not horses. hmmm


nah, you got it right. She said Horse. I don't think Stannis had sex with anyone but his wife until Mellisandre.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mostman said:


> Think of it as the Lannister anthem. It's about Tywin squashing a rebellion when he was younger and the Hand of the king.


I think it was mentioned as "a" Lannister song, not "the", right?



LordKronos said:


> Thanks. I didn't realize that was the lannister song Bronn was singing with the guards.


IIRC, one of the guards asked Bronn how he learned "a" Lannister song and Bronn said from being around drunk Lannisters.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I think it was mentioned as "a" Lannister song, not "the", right?
> 
> IIRC, one of the guards asked Bronn how he learned "a" Lannister song and Bronn said from being around drunk Lannisters.


Yeah. But it's the one they use when they feel like being arrogant bastards 

The lyrics could basically just be "don't f with us".


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Sorry about the multiple posts.

I figure now Robb is in real trouble. Tywin has beaten back Stannis and gained extra soldiers from his alliance with Loras. And the Greyjoys, with or without Theon, are attacking him from his flank. Not good.

Shae: "some of those boys will never come back"
Sansa: "Joffrey will. The worst ones always live"


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> I think it was mentioned as "a" Lannister song, not "the", right?
> IIRC, one of the guards asked Bronn how he learned "a" Lannister song and Bronn said from being around drunk Lannisters.


Nope just watched again. "Where'd you learn THE Lannister song?"


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> The danger there is that the show doesn't exactly follow the book. As has been pointed out, some of the events we've seen this season won't happen until book 3 or 4. Likewise, I suppose there's the possibility that some of the stuff that happened in book 2 might not show up until season 3 or 4 (don't know, haven't read the books, but just guessing).


Indeed. But that hasn't happened yet. All major events are happening on time or before, so far. Setting scope a book behind isn't going to come close to getting you in danger.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I figure now Robb is in real trouble. Tywin has beaten back Stannis and gained extra soldiers from his alliance with Loras. And the Greyjoys, with or without Theon, are attacking him from his flank. Not good.


Except Theon is the only Greyjoy who has any interest in attacking Robb...the rest only care about the sea (and coast). The other Greyjoys only have contempt for Theon's plans for land war. In Asia or otherwise.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I figure now Robb is in real trouble. Tywin has beaten back Stannis and gained extra soldiers from his alliance with Loras. And the Greyjoys, with or without Theon, are attacking him from his flank. Not good.


I've been trying to figure out what will happen next week and next season. Last season they used the last few episodes to reset the story. We thought the show was about Ned and then they sort of rebooted. Now this season, the show was sort of about Robbs victories, with Stannis on the horizon. I thought Stannis was somehow going to win this one and beat back the Lannisters (though not wipe them out). I was thinking next season would be more of a 3 way battle between the Starks, Lannisters, and Baratheons (I believe Stannis told Cat that Robb would not be King of the North when Stannis takes the throne), with Dany still not being much threat for at least another season.

Now that's obviously not going to happen. So yeah, I think next season the tables will be flipped. Instead of the Lannisters being attacked from all directions, it's not the Starks taking on that problem. However, like I said earlier, I don't think Stannis is done. He's going to turn back to dark magic and be back with a vengence. And I don't know that the Tyrells are going to be happy to be attacking the Starks. Seems they would want to at least honor Renley's allegiance with them, and more importantly, want to continue to seek revenge on Stannis.

This episode would have made a hell of a season finale, so I'm wondering what will be the actual finale. Mellisandra unveiling something even bigger then the Renley slaying shadow monster could be interesting, much the same as the reveal of the dragons were in season 1. However, I'm thinking it will be something that bodes poorly for the Starks. Just can't think of what it would be.

I don't suspect Tyrion is going to get the short end of the credit stick for this battle. Too many people know of Tyrions accomplishments, and too many know of Joffrey's cowardice. There's no way they can spin this without Tywin learning the truth. I suspect Tyrion is going to be given some greater responsibility against the Starks, possibly directing Jamie's battles (Tyrion had his chance to torment Cercie, so now maybe he can do the same with Jamie).


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Huh? I don't hear that. I can't seem to relate it to the theme song, neither when Bronn is singing it, nor in the credits.





Anubys said:


> I love the theme song and I certainly did not notice that it was the same as the song they were singing.
> 
> Better watch the episode a third time just to make sure!


It's the Game of Thrones theme song. The Lannister anthem. I win. The opening theme starts on the chorus.

Better yet, it sounds like the singer over the credits is the same guy who sang the "Nettles and ..." theme for "Luck."


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

mostman said:


> Think of it as the Lannister anthem. It's about Tywin squashing a rebellion when he was younger and the Hand of the king.


I figured "the rain falls..with not a soul to hear" is about Harrenhall, but the Targaryon dragons melted that.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

can't disagree with you about anything.

But Jaime is coming home. Sansa and Arya should be home soon. So we could have a happy reunion as everyone braces for Maycen (the king beyond the wall, whatever his name is) and the white walkers!

how about that for an angle?! 

Also, the ramification of (what I believe to be) Cercei's attempt on Tyrion's life and how he is really the one who saved the city.

btw: didn't King's Landing once fall to the Baratheons/Starks? so how come they said the city had never been taken?


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I watched a second and half time to see what's mentioned here, about the Hound fearing fire and who hits Tyrion.

The Hound flinched when they hand a torch near him. There's a reaction shot of him when the greenfire blows, and he quits when he sees a guy burning with all kinds of flame in the battle behind that guy.

For a guy who up until now hasn't said much...
"If you die without blood on your sword, I'll rape your f-ing corpse!"
"If any flaming arrow gets near me, I'll strangle you with your guts!"
He does say, " I will not hurt you, Little Bird."

It is Ser Borris who smashes Tyrion.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> So we could have...happy...


Do you even WATCH this show?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

One more?

Varys: "I've always hated the bells. They ring for horror. A dead king. A city under siege..."

Tyrion (interrupting): "a wedding?"

Varys: "exactly"


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

netringer said:


> It is Ser Boris(?) who smashes Tyrion.


I thought so but on the third watch, I'm not sure. Boris has a beard when Joffrey tells him to take his place. The guy who tried to kill Tyrion did not seem to have a beard. But it is very dark so I'm not sure.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Do you even WATCH this show?


I do! Everyone gets a moment of happiness to make the pain even worse later!


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

netringer said:


> I figured "the rain falls..with not a soul to hear" is about Harrenhall, but the Targaryon dragons melted that.


Same idea though. Tywin wiped the house out - so, as mentioned above, there is no one left to hear".

By the way, the credit version was done by The National and is on the sound track. It's good. Haunting in a way you expected it to be when sung in the book. Little touches like that are the reason this show, while it deviates a bit, does such a good retaining the tone and spirit of the books.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Well, at least with Tywin back in charge in King's Landing things should go a little smoother. He's not a nice guy at all, but he should be able to control Cercei and Joffrey......I hope.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Well, at least with Tywin back in charge in King's Landing things should go a little smoother. He's not a nice guy at all, but he should be able to control Cercei and Joffrey......I hope.


Control Cercei? That would be something.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Actually, quite necessary. It's night. It's difficult to see who or what is on the beach. Each flaming arrow adds a little bit of light so you can see whats going on. Also, I think proper training is that you always ready your bow with it aimed towards the ground and then aim up to your target. If you do that, there's no extra work in having a fire sitting there.


Also (and perhaps more so), when shooting the arrows in the large arc, the flames make the arrows work like "tracer bullets" and let the archers know if the arrows are landing where they're supposed to or not. They can adjust subsequent shots accordingly.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> So we could have a happy reunion as everyone braces for Maycen (the king beyond the wall, whatever his name is) and the white walkers!


I'm NOT a book reader, but my guess about the white walkers:



Spoiler



Based on the book titles, I don't think that will happen until we get to book 6, which is titled "The Winds of Winter".


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I just watched it again, and one thing that struck me the first time, and I forgot to mention, but was reminded of during the rewatch is Sansas little bit of backbone in her early exchange with both Tyrion and Joffrey. "My brother always fights in the Vanguard.." and my favorite, "I will pray for your safe return". "Will you?" "As I pray for the Kings". Yes, exactly as hard as I pray for the Kings return. What a nice touch.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I thought so but on the third watch, I'm not sure. Boris has a beard when Joffrey tells him to take his place. The guy who tried to kill Tyrion did not seem to have a beard. But it is very dark so I'm not sure.


I'm certain it's Borris. Here are some screenshots enhanced (sorry, I've only got Photoshop CS, not Photoshop CSI)


















He doesn't have a beard, but has some leather tassels hanging out from under his helmet.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Anubys said:


> btw: didn't King's Landing once fall to the Baratheons/Starks? so how come they said the city had never been taken?


I'll put this in spoilers just in case, I can't remember if this came to light on the show, if someone who has read the books could confirm or deny it I'll unspoilerize it or delete the post all together. However none of this has to do with anything currently going on in the show.


Spoiler



I think they mentioned somewhere that someone (I won't say who) had opened the gates to Kings landing about the same time Jaime, the king's body guard, killed the mad king. The city wasn't really taken by force but someone had opened the doors wide open for the armies to enter.


----------



## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

How much time has passed since the beginning of the show? Do they keep time different in GoT world? 

Oh and public to notice to any women I know...from now I am referring to it as "the red flower"


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I've been wondering why Cersie and Jeffy have kept with the plan to make Sansa his queen. King Robert arranged that to merge the Baratheon and Stark houses.

Since they offed Ned Stark they've had no pretense of an alliance with the Starks so they should have just treated Sansa as a hostage - not the future queen.


----------



## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

Am I the only one who saw the Hound close the door behind him as he left Sansa's room? I think Sansa is staying in King's Landing.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

markb said:


> Am I the only one who saw the Hound close the door behind him as he left Sansa's room? I think Sansa is staying in King's Landing.


Crap. I watched that scene carefully and came to the opposite conclusion. Apparently I wasn't careful enough, because when the camera focuses in on the doll, you can just barely see the door start to close behind him.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

netringer said:


> Since they offed Ned Stark they've had no pretense of an alliance with the Starks so they should have just treated Sansa as a hostage - not the future queen.


I believe in this world, breaking off a betrothal would be considered dishonorable. Even though the 2 houses are at war, it was public knowledge that the two would be married and the Lannisters would appear to be breaking a contract.

I know it's confusing with the war and all. In season 1 Cersai has said that the warden of the north would be needed to keep the peace since the kingdom is too large. If the Lannisters win the war and kill Robb, Sansa would be a key piece to keep the north under control. Even though her first son would be heir to the throne, if she has another boy it could be groomed to be a warden of the north.

I sometimes wonder why too...


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

netringer said:


> It's the Game of Thrones theme song. The Lannister anthem. I win. The opening theme starts on the chorus.


Before just declaring you win (not sure it was a contest), do you have something to back you up? No matter how many times I listen, I don't hear it.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Interesting. Earlier, I had noticed that Loras was not wearing his usual armor (silver with flower markings). Looking back at previous episodes to see when he changed his armor, he never did until now (except that he added some extra plates for the joust). However, I noticed the armor he was wearing this week appeared to be the same as Renly's armor.

Looking now on HBO's viewers guide ( http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season2/#!/map/special/battleground-westeros/5/ ) it says:

"Tyrion then took up the charge to keep the rebel forces at bay until the "ghost of Renly Baratheon" (Loras Tyrell) terrified the rest of Stannis' men into dispersing."

The last time we see Stannis, his men are running away and he's screaming "stand and fight". I figured they just knew it was over, but I guess they thought Loras was actually Renly's ghost.

That said, I'm not sure what Stannis hoped to accomplish by standing and fighting. According to Littlefinger's conversation with Tywin a few weeks ago, the Tyrells have the 3rd largest army (after the Starks and Lannisters). I don't think Stannis had a chance at that point.

Speaking of Littlefinger's conversion with Tywin, I forget that they had discussed getting the Tyrells to join. Littlefinger said he'd ride to see the Tyrell's immediately if Tywin wanted. Tywin said he'd have an answer that night, but we didn't hear the answer.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Before just declaring you win (not sure it was a contest), do you have something to back you up? No matter how many times I listen, I don't hear it.


I hear it. Every time. Not from the intro of the sung version. The theme matches at the second, chorus part.


----------



## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Great dialog... "Sir Hansel(?), tell the hound to tell the King that the Hand of the King is extremely busy."


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh I guess she could have said whores.... maybe she did considering they came on boats and not horses. hmmm


She definitely said "horse". I watch this show with closed captions on because of all the strange names.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Interesting. Earlier, I had noticed that Loras was not wearing his usual armor (silver with flower markings). Looking back at previous episodes to see when he changed his armor, he never did until now (except that he added some extra plates for the joust). However, I noticed the armor he was wearing this week appeared to be the same as Renly's armor.
> 
> Looking now on HBO's viewers guide ( http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season2/#!/map/special/battleground-westeros/5/ ) it says:
> 
> ...


Thanks for researching all this. Things make a lot more sense now.

I will add that once Renly died, they did mention that many of his bannermen went over to Stannis and swore their loyalty to him. So, at the very least, Loras' huge army was cut in size (to what size, I don't know. But the conversation made it seem like by a significant margin).


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Thanks for researching all this. Things make a lot more sense now.
> 
> I will add that once Renly died, they did mention that many of his bannermen went over to Stannis and swore their loyalty to him. So, at the very least, Loras' huge army was cut in size (to what size, I don't know. But the conversation made it seem like by a significant margin).


You know, my initial recollection (before yesterday) was that Loras was left with a small force, too. But this conversation betwen Tywin and Littlefinger happened after Renly died and the men left. I figured they would have known that and taken it into account. In fact, Littlefinger was there just before Renley died. I don't recall if he said anything about leaving or if he might have stuck around to see firsthand that everyone left.

I'll have to go back and check the dialog after Renly's death and see if I can find anything


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

OK I just checked, and yes Littlefinger was there after. He's the one that told Loras that Renly's bannermen were flocking to Stannis.

And yeah, the more I think about it, these numbers aren't adding up for me. Littlefinger says the Tyrells have the 3rd largest army. We know from earlier that the starks have about 20k men (from the conversation with the Lannister spy, who they used to trick Tywin and thus capture Jamie). But I also recall that we heard sometime that Renly had 100k men. I'm not sure how the Tyrells can have less than 20k men and Stannis have even fewer men than that, unless the vast majority of Renlys men didn't join Stannis nor Loras, and just decided to go home instead.

Do we know how big King's Landing's army is? I know Matthos said Stannis' army outnumbered them 5 to 1, but I don't know anything more specific than that. I don't recall any other references to a specific size of Stannis' army.


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Anubys said:


> btw: didn't King's Landing once fall to the Baratheons/Starks? so how come they said the city had never been taken?





robojerk said:


> I'll put this in spoilers just in case, I can't remember if this came to light on the show, if someone who has read the books could confirm or deny it I'll unspoilerize it or delete the post all together. However none of this has to do with anything currently going on in the show.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


You both have the gist of it. Not spoilerized because it's something that has already happened and they've talked about it on the show (there are just lots of details that are hard to retain, I know):

King's Landing was taken when the Mad King, Aerys Targaryan sat the throne (the king before Robert Baratheon). Tywin Lannister was formerly Aerys' Hand and Aerys still cautiously considered him an ally. Tywin feigned loyalty to Aerys and gained entrance to King's Landing with his force. Once inside, the force took King's Landing. Jamie killed the Mad King (hence the name Kingslayer) and Lannister men killed the other Targaryans. Gregor "The Mountain" Clegane raped and killed Princess Elia, Prince Rhaegar's wife, and killed their infant son, Aegon.

So in a sense they did not storm the castle and "take" the city, but they waltzed in under false pretenses.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> But Jaime is coming home. Sansa and Arya should be home soon. So we could have a happy reunion as everyone braces for Maycen (the king beyond the wall, whatever his name is) and the white walkers!


The King Beyond the Wall is Mance Ryder.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

madscientist said:


> The King Beyond the Wall is Mance Ryder.


Rayder actually unless they changed his name from the book. It is sometimes hard to understand what they are saying so I'm not sure.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Wow! Tyrion is even more awesome than I thought! I hope he survives to slap Joffrey again.

The bad part was those dreaded two words for next weeks ep: "Season Finale". :down:


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

They ought to just keep doing the show weekly until they catch up to the books.

[runs and hides from cast]


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I cannot believe we are almost through the season. This is most depressing! 10 episodes is. just. not. enough. I'm going to go cry now.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I cannot believe we are almost through the season. This is most depressing! 10 episodes is. just. not. enough. I'm going to go cry now.


I was surprised how quickly season 2 started after 1 ended (and even then Sansa had time to grow about a foot). I wonder how long till season 3. If it is similar to last time then in about 3 years the series will have caught up to the books and we can all ***** about how slowly he writes new book.

Then again maybe the series will keep going and the books will start being "As seen on HBO"...


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

jakerock said:


> I was surprised how quickly season 2 started after 1 ended (and even then Sansa had time to grow about a foot). I wonder how long till season 3. If it is similar to last time then in about 3 years the series will have caught up to the books and we can all ***** about how slowly he writes new book.


Season 1 - Started in April: Ended in June 
Season 2 - Started in April: Ending in June

so yeah.... long long long long wait.


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

jakerock said:


> I was surprised how quickly season 2 started after 1 ended (and even then Sansa had time to grow about a foot). I wonder how long till season 3. If it is similar to last time then in about 3 years the series will have caught up to the books and we can all ***** about how slowly he writes new book.
> 
> Then again maybe the series will keep going and the books will start being "As seen on HBO"...


I can imagine the forum posts complaining about how the latest book changes what happened in the show. (And then the complaints from the folks without HBO about not using spoiler tags since they are reading the book first.)


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Don't have time to comment a lot atm, but all I can say is you guys all rock! I missed a lot of key stuff in my first viewing last night, most of all that it was a Lannister who got Tyrion and that the "cavalry" was Tywin's troops. I did catch that Tywin was there at the very end though.

I KNOW Cierce was involved in trying to get Tyrion. I think that was part of her recall of Joffrey so that he's not at all implicated in Tyrion's "death"

I do also think that Tywin will see which way the wind is blowing before he backs either Cierce/Joffrey or Tyrion as "hero". He's nothing but a practical man.

I'm also curious to see if Tywin brought Arya with him, which could reunite the sisters (assuming that Sansa didn't leave with Dog (I love that Joffrey calls him that).

I'm assuming that next week will wrap up the Greyjoy story and the Jon Snow story (well maybe not wrap up in a neat little bow...but advance it so we know what happened and what to look for next season)

Oh, and Season Finale = depression until next April.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

audioscience said:


> You both have the gist of it. Not spoilerized because it's something that has already happened and they've talked about it on the show (there are just lots of details that are hard to retain, I know):
> 
> King's Landing was taken when the Mad King, Aerys Targaryan sat the throne (the king before Robert Baratheon). Tywin Lannister was formerly Aerys' Hand and Aerys still cautiously considered him an ally. Tywin feigned loyalty to Aerys and gained entrance to King's Landing with his force. Once inside, the force took King's Landing. Jamie killed the Mad King (hence the name Kingslayer) and Lannister men killed the other Targaryans. Gregor "The Mountain" Clegane raped and killed Princess Elia, Prince Rhaegar's wife, and killed their infant son, Aegon.
> 
> So in a sense they did not storm the castle and "take" the city, but they waltzed in under false pretenses.


Huh...nothing in your narrative discusses Ned or Robert; who seem to have had the option of sitting on the throne (Ned didn't want it so Robert took it). By this account, I would think Tywin would have had first dibs and I doubt very much he would have turned it down!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Season 1 - Started in April: Ended in June
> Season 2 - Started in April: Ending in June
> 
> so yeah.... long long long long wait.


At least you've already made it through your first break. For me, I just learned about this show. So my schedule has been

Season 1 - Started in March 2012: Ended in March 2012
Season 2 - Started in April: Ending in June

I've essentially had 20 episodes with only about a 1 month break (during which I watched all of season 1 again for good measure). It's gonna be twice as hard for me.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Huh...nothing in your narrative discusses Ned or Robert; who seem to have had the option of sitting on the throne (Ned didn't want it so Robert took it). By this account, I would think Tywin would have had first dibs and I doubt very much he would have turned it down!


I think Tywin is the Dick Chaney of Westeros


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Season 1 - Started in April: Ended in June
> Season 2 - Started in April: Ending in June
> 
> so yeah.... long long long long wait.


Was it really April to April? I thought it was less than a year. Having gotten used to years and years between hits, maybe it just seemed shorter. That and it always seems like HBO takes longer than a year between seasons of things.

Not looking forward to waiting a year for season 3 then. Now I'm sad too.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> I'm also curious to see if Tywin brought Arya with him, which could reunite the sisters (assuming that Sansa didn't leave with Dog (I love that Joffrey calls him that).


He did not. He left her at Harrenhall. Then she escaped with the 2 boys. So I see no way Arya can be with him.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> the "cavalry" was Tywin's troops


Actually, a combination of Tywin's and Loras Tyrell's (the knight of flowers, and Renlys lover).



> I'm also curious to see if Tywin brought Arya with him


Nope, last episode, he said Arya would stay at Harrenhall and take care of The Mountain (make sure he doesn't get too drunk). Then after Tywin left, Arya snuck out with the help of....I'm not even going to try and remember his name


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Huh...nothing in your narrative discusses Ned or Robert; who seem to have had the option of sitting on the throne (Ned didn't want it so Robert took it). By this account, I would think Tywin would have had first dibs and I doubt very much he would have turned it down!


I know photoshopgrl said to NEVER visit awoiaf.westeros.org, but with some careful googling I was able to find http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aerys_II_Targaryen#Death without spoiling anything for myself:



Spoiler



Mere hours before the lead elements of the rebel host led by Eddard Stark arrived, 12,000 Westerland forces under Lord Tywin Lannister reached the city and pledged themselves to the Targaryen cause. Aerys ignored Varys' plea that he not admit Tywin's forces to the city. Instead, he acted on the advice of Grand Maester Pycelle and made the mistake of opening the city gates. However, the Lannisters were lying about their faith from the beginning, and once inside, the Lannister army proceeded to sack the city.

Aerys, aware that it was the end, ordered his pyromancers to ignite the wildfire beneath the city and burn King's Landing to the ground with all its people rather than let the rebels take the city. Jaime Lannister stated that Aerys, in his madness, did not believe he would die, but like Aerion Targaryen believed the fire would allow him to be reborn as a dragon so he could crush his enemies. However, before the orders could be carried out, Ser Jaime slew the pyromancers. He then betrayed his Kingsguard oath and slew King Aerys at the foot of the Iron Throne, so he could not give the orders to burn the city to someone else. Jaime's actions prevented the genocide of the city's population.[5]


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> He did not. He left her at Harrenhall. Then she escaped with the 2 boys. So I see no way Arya can be with him.


You're right....duh!!! I had completely forgotten. Nevermind


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jakerock said:


> I was surprised how quickly season 2 started after 1 ended (and even then Sansa had time to grow about a foot).


Yeah, the two complications are that the seasons are short with almost a year between them, and that a fair amount of time passes within each season (probably more than most people realize)...characters travel vast distances that get glossed over, during which weeks or months pass. Remember that the area of Westeros where most of this takes place is about 3,000 miles long and as much as 1,000 miles wide...and these people are at best riding horses, and often walking. Since the show began, people have gone back and forth between Winterfell and King's Landing, about 1500 miles, several times. So Sansa's growth is probably in line with the overall amount of time that has passed...it just happened all at once in real-world terms.


----------



## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Just for the record I could care less about spoilers I am journey over destination guy.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I think Tywin is the Dick Chaney of Westeros


:up:


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

I have 2 questions that I haven't seen discussed here:

Why was Sansa allowed to leave the room of women? If the plan was for the guy to kill them if they were overrun, why would any of them be allowed to leave?

I'm still confused about the gold guard fighting tyrion. Part of me thought the guard just wanted to give him a "battle wound" because it seemed like he delibrately missed him...but maybe I saw it wrong.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Huh...nothing in your narrative discusses Ned or Robert; who seem to have had the option of sitting on the throne (Ned didn't want it so Robert took it). By this account, I would think Tywin would have had first dibs and I doubt very much he would have turned it down!


I think the deal between Tywin and Robert was "You get the throne, but my daughter is your queen".


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

pmyers said:


> I have 2 questions that I haven't seen discussed here:
> 
> Why was Sansa allowed to leave the room of women? If the plan was for the guy to kill them if they were overrun, why would any of them be allowed to leave?
> 
> I'm still confused about the gold guard fighting tyrion. Part of me thought the guard just wanted to give him a "battle wound" because it seemed like he delibrately missed him...but maybe I saw it wrong.


As I understood it, the idea is that the women would rather be dead than raped, which is why the guy was there. If Sansa would rather leave and risk rape, that wasn't his problem.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

pmyers said:


> I have 2 questions that I haven't seen discussed here:
> 
> Why was Sansa allowed to leave the room of women? If the plan was for the guy to kill them if they were overrun, why would any of them be allowed to leave?
> 
> I'm still confused about the gold guard fighting tyrion. Part of me thought the guard just wanted to give him a "battle wound" because it seemed like he delibrately missed him...but maybe I saw it wrong.


I can't answer your second question since I don't understand what happened there either but in the first case, the guy was there to kill them to save them from being raped. They weren't being held prisoner. That's my understanding of it. Better to die a clean death than to be raped and tortured by the victors. That is why Shae thought Sansa would be alright. Her identity in theory would provide some protection. That assumes that someone bothers to identify who she is, report it to Stannis, and he protects her as someone not aligned with the Lannisters and a potentially valuable person to 'save'.


----------



## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Also there was a brief discussion about the 50 miles of tunnels under King's Landing. Was that the setup for Tywin's flanking move on the ground forces, or I wonder is there some deeper, future purpose intended for those tunnels.


----------



## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

markb said:


> Am I the only one who saw the Hound close the door behind him as he left Sansa's room? I think Sansa is staying in King's Landing.


I specifically watched that part again, and I believe it was done in a way to make it a cliff hanger. The Hound definitely leaves and is closing the door as the camera focuses on the doll. And at that point Sensa has not moved. However what's to say that after a few seconds of thought she runs out the door to follow. Whether the door was totally closed or not is irrevalent. Frankly it would be the wise choice to go with the Hound, but we will either find out during the season finale or if not we'll have to wait until then next season starts.

But the point is that she may or may not be going with the Hound. We just don't know yet!!

Gerry


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

dtivouser said:


> Also there was a brief discussion about the 50 miles of tunnels under King's Landing. Was that the setup for Tywin's flanking move on the ground forces, or I wonder is there some deeper, future purpose intended for those tunnels.


One of the tunnels was how Tyrion led his troops outside the walls to attack from behind the group battering the gate.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Gerryex said:


> I specifically watched that part again, and I believe it was done in a way to make it a cliff hanger. The Hound definitely leaves and is closing the door as the camera focuses on the doll. And at that point Sensa has not moved. However what's to say that after a few seconds of thought she runs out the door to follow. Whether the door was totally closed or not is irrevalent. Frankly it would be the wise choice to go with the Hound, but we will either find out during the season finale or if not we'll have to wait until then next season starts.
> 
> But the point is that she may or may not be going with the Hound. We just don't know yet!!
> 
> Gerry


That's how I see it. IMO, Sansa would be an idiot if she didn't go with the Hound. But I haven't ruled that out.


----------



## AlphaDelta (Jan 9, 2007)

allan said:


> That's how I see it. IMO, Sansa would be an idiot if she didn't go with the Hound. But I haven't ruled that out.


I see Sansa and Jon Snow locked in a race of who's the dumbest of the Stark offspring, with Sansa ahead by a nose.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

allan said:


> As I understood it, the idea is that the women would rather be dead than raped, which is why the guy was there. If Sansa would rather leave and risk rape, that wasn't his problem.


I haven't read the books, but I've been reading a website that discusses scene by scene for each episode how it is both similar and different from the portrayal in the book.



Spoiler



http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Episodes/Entry/Blackwater/Book_Spoilers/#Book_to_Screen

In this scene, it says it is mostly the same as the book, though one of Cersei's lines was left out:
The Starks will have no joy from the fall of House Lannister, I promise you.

That tells me it wasn't voluntary, at least for Sansa. If the city falls, Sansa dies. Now, how she got out of there, I don't know. Maybe Cersei hadn't given Payne or anyone else the orders to keep her there (might make her look bad later if the city didn't fall)


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

AlphaDelta said:


> I see Sansa and Jon Snow locked in a race of who's the dumbest of the Stark offspring, with Sansa ahead by a nose.


I think Jon Snow still wins, because he still have more of a choice in his actions.

If you think about Sansa's dilemma, it's a tough choice. On one hand, she can stay where she is, hope that having her red flower or whatever they are calling it, will prevent her from being raped, and hope that Stannis could see the value in keeping her alive if he wins (or conversely, she still could potentially be the queen with Joffrey). OR...go with The Hound, who has a wierd infatuation with her (sorry, but I'm not sure what to make of it, and if I'm a young girl, I might be creeped out by it) and try and escape with him in the middle of a war with LOTS of people wanting to kill him. We are watching from the outside, but put yourself in her shoes and see what you think (and remember, she's what 14?)

Snow, on the other hand, just does stupid impulsive things at ever turn, and risks getting people killed with every dumb decision. I think Snow wins by a wide margin.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

AlphaDelta said:


> I see Sansa and Jon Snow locked in a race of who's the dumbest of the Stark offspring, with Sansa ahead by a nose.


Sansa has been very smart lately. Jon Snow? not so much.

If you were a girl who has been through what she has been through, I would forgive you a moment of hesitation about spending the next 2 months on the run with the Hound as your only company (even if she realized that he would never hurt her).

as far as the tunnels: we've seen how Varys uses them. Arya used them to get out (once even by accident). Tyrion used them to out-flank Stannis. I figure that as long as King's Landing is around, the tunnels will always have a role.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> when the camera focuses in on the doll, you can just barely see the door start to close behind him.


I probably missed something again--what was the meaning of the doll? Have we seen it before?



photoshopgrl said:


> Season 1 - Started in April: Ended in June
> Season 2 - Started in April: Ending in June
> 
> so yeah.... long long long long wait.


That time will go so much faster if you just read 5 huge books over the summer. 



tiassa said:


> I think the deal between Tywin and Robert was "You get the throne, but my daughter is your queen".


If Tywin knew about Jamie and Cersie maybe he figured that would guarantee a Lannister on the throne in the future. It's worked out pretty well for him. And Robert never really seemed like someone who would live a long life. Especially surrounded by Lannisters. 



allan said:


> That's how I see it. IMO, Sansa would be an idiot if she didn't go with the Hound. But I haven't ruled that out.


Does Sansa know that Theon has taken Winterfell? I wouldn't go with the Hound unless I knew for sure he could take me home.....even then.....


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> I probably missed something again--what was the meaning of the doll? Have we seen it before?


I may be wrong, but I think that's the doll Ned gave Sansa as a present when they first got to King's Landing, to try and pacify her. She threw it down and told him she has not played with dolls since she was 10 (or something rude like that).


----------



## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> I probably missed something again--what was the meaning of the doll? Have we seen it before?


It's just a very unsubtle way to show her becoming a woman and loss of innocence.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Aniketos said:


> It's just a very unsubtle way to show her becoming a woman and loss of innocence.




Came from the e-mail notification to say "more like loss of innocence" but you beat me to it with a quick edit!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

stellie93 said:


> That time will go so much faster if you just read 5 huge books over the summer.


Have you lost your mind? Don't you see how upset I get when I accidentally find something out?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I may be wrong, but I think that's the doll Ned gave Sansa as a present when they first got to King's Landing, to try and pacify her. She threw it down and told him she has not played with dolls since she was 10 (or something rude like that).


I don't think that's quite right. I vaguely remember that scene, but wasn't that Arya? Sansa wanted to be in Kings Landing (she wants nothing more to be queen). Arya was the one who didn't like being there.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm thinking I will stop watching the show. It's just full of spoilers!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> I don't think that's quite right. I vaguely remember that scene, but wasn't that Arya? Sansa wanted to be in Kings Landing (she wants nothing more to be queen). Arya was the one who didn't like being there.


But by then, they had the altercation with the Butcher's boy and Ned had killed Lady.

You may be right. But I just don't see Ned thinking that Arya would even consider playing with dolls!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> You may be right. But I just don't see Ned thinking that Arya would even consider playing with dolls!


Just checked it. It was episode 3 of season 1, it is the exact same doll Sansa is holding this week. My mistake, you are right, it was Sansa that was given the doll


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> On one hand, she can stay where she is, hope that having her red flower or whatever they are calling it, will prevent her from being raped


I didn't think Cersei was saying it would keep her from being raped, but that it would keep her from getting pregnant. She said something like "half these girls will be raped and have bastards in their bellies and you'll be glad of your red flower then".

ETA: Found it here http://tosubtitles.com/game-of-thrones-blackwater-2012-english-english/24303:

"If the city falls, these fine women should be in for a bit of a rape. Half of them will have bastards in their bellies come the morning. You'll be glad of your red flower then."


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Just checked it. It was episode 3 of season 1, it is the exact same doll Sansa is holding this week. My mistake, you are right, it was Sansa that was given the doll


How do you do that?! but thanks for checking 

Wow, Ned was even more clueless than I remember 

Now the only thing to wonder about is if the doll was always there (I doubt it, Sansa looked surprised to see it) or if The Hound put it there.

If the Hound put it there, that's a whole new layer of creepy; as if you needed more layers!


----------



## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Came from the e-mail notification to say "more like loss of innocence" but you beat me to it with a quick edit!


Shh


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

The doll (innocence) stays behind. Sansa runs away.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Have you lost your mind? Don't you see how upset I get when I accidentally find something out?


See, that's why you need to read the books toot sweet. Then, you won't have to worry about spoilers any more!


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I pretty much read the books because during season 1 someone put a spoiler I carelessly opened (my fault) regarding how Ned Stark looses his head. There are a lot of fan sites out there and I came to the conclusion that unless you bubble yourself up, running into spoilers is near impossible if you like to discuss the show online. Google is not your friend, and will make you cry even if you do simple search that you would think wouldn't mean anything.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Yeah, in season 1 when I hadn't read the books, I would have been lost without opening a spoiler or 2 and finding out backstory. However I did open one that mentioned Robert's death, and then,even being more careful, one that mentioned Ned's death. Totally my fault, but I gave up on being unspoiled. 

Everything I read in books 2-5 was unspoiled, though.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

You mean like googling "Rains of Castamere" and finding out stuff like I did? Yeah. 
Shockingly I've been really really lucky about this until the past week or so. I think during season 1 since I watched it after it aired, it was easier for me. I just read threads here and asked questions or visited the HBO site keeping characters straight. 
But I've learned my lesson now. I shan't be tricked again!


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> You mean like googling "Rains of Castamere" and finding out stuff like I did? Yeah.
> Shockingly I've been really really lucky about this until the past week or so. I think during season 1 since I watched it after it aired, it was easier for me. I just read threads here and asked questions or visited the HBO site keeping characters straight.
> But I've learned my lesson now. I shan't be tricked again!


I've read the books, so I googled it to see if I could figure out exactly what you saw that you shouldn't. What was it? (you can PM me if you don't want to put it in spoiler tags)


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I google'd it too, and saw a list of scenes that the song is played in the books. Some are VERY revealing.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

robojerk said:


> I google'd it too, and saw a list of scenes that the song is played in the books. Some are VERY revealing.


Yup that be it.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

jehma said:


> I've read the books, so I googled it to see if I could figure out exactly what you saw that you shouldn't. What was it? (you can PM me if you don't want to put it in spoiler tags)


PM me, too. I am curious to see how bad the spoiler was. I have a couple of guess but want confirmation.


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

boy....some guys will do anything to have a private converstation with a girl... LOL


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I guessed what it must have been immediately when she said she had googled Rains of Castamere.

Link to big spoiler from the books:



Spoiler



http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Red_Wedding


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Ha! Well it worked! 

I was thinking about this show today (instead of working, as per usual) and I'm really wanting to know about Davos. He went flying off the ship but I don't think he took a direct hit. His son, I say is gone. But him, not so much... which begs the question, where was Stannis during that explosion? And why, if Davos is indeed still alive, would Stannis not get him from the water? That's his right hand man! I need to rewatch that scene again and not be mesmerized by the cool explosion and pay more attention to where everyone is.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Ha! Well it worked!
> 
> I was thinking about this show today (instead of working, as per usual) and I'm really wanting to know about Davos. He went flying off the ship but I don't think he took a direct hit. His son, I say is gone. But him, not so much... which begs the question, where was Stannis during that explosion? And why, if Davos is indeed still alive, would Stannis not get him from the water? That's his right hand man! I need to rewatch that scene again and not be mesmerized by the cool explosion and pay more attention to where everyone is.


Stannis was on a ship further out. Captain Davos lead the fleet on the first ship...and saw the wildfire. Davos called "steer clear!" and "Manos! Get down!"


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pmyers said:


> boy....some guys will do anything to have a private converstation with a girl... LOL


this puts a damper on "please remember this conversation and let me know about the big spoiler after it happens" post 

it did seem strange that Davos and Stannis have been on the same ship talking to each other for 1 or 2 episodes but then got on different ships just before the battle.

I do agree that the kid is dead. Davos can go either way and his fate was left ambiguous on purpose so far. If he lives, he will be mighty upset about his son.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Anubys said:


> it did seem strange that Davos and Stannis have been on the same ship talking to each other for 1 or 2 episodes but then got on different ships just before the battle.


I thought it was because Stannis was in position to lead the ground attack, and Davos's role was to lead the naval battle, given his history.

Z


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

zordude said:


> I thought it was because Stannis was in position to lead the ground attack, and Davos's role was to lead the naval battle, given his history.
> Z


This is probably correct. I just wish they had shown Stannis at least seem like he might be concerned about his whereabouts. I guess Stannis was just tunnel vision on a mission. Wow is that one brave, determined man, I will give him that.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Speaking of alive or dead, did we see Bron after the battle?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

stellie93 said:


> Speaking of alive or dead, did we see Bron after the battle?


I don't think so. Last we saw him was battling with various Lannister troops after saving the Hound's ass.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I do also think that Tywin will see which way the wind is blowing before he backs either Cierce/Joffrey or Tyrion as "hero". He's nothing but a practical man.


I'm not sure about that: Tywin has been very clear in the past about his complete disgust at Tyrion due to his physique. Not sure that he will be willing to get over it and prefer him over Cersie/Joffrey and their clear claim to the throne, regardless of circumstances.



pmyers said:


> Why was Sansa allowed to leave the room of women? If the plan was for the guy to kill them if they were overrun, why would any of them be allowed to leave?


My opinion is that the queen left without explicit instructions and after she left, isn't Sansa the most senior lady left in the room, as princess of Winterfell and fiance of the king? Maybe she could do what she likes.



john4200 said:


> I guessed what it must have been immediately when she said she had googled Rains of Castamere.


Oh no! I'm so sorry photoshopgrl. What a drag


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

madscientist said:


> I'm not sure about that: Tywin has been very clear in the past about his complete disgust at Tyrion due to his physique. Not sure that he will be willing to get over it and prefer him over Cersie/Joffrey and their clear claim to the throne, regardless of circumstances.
> 
> My opinion is that the queen left without explicit instructions and after she left, isn't Sansa the most senior lady left in the room, as princess of Winterfell and fiance of the king? Maybe she could do what she likes.
> 
> Oh no! I'm so sorry photoshopgrl. What a drag


I agree with both your comments about Tywin and why Sansa was able to leave. 
As for the other, yeah well my own fault, I suppose. I'll live. And you guys can stop calling me photoshopgrl now. It's Cristina


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

madscientist said:


> I'm not sure about that: Tywin has been very clear in the past about his complete disgust at Tyrion due to his physique. Not sure that he will be willing to get over it and prefer him over Cersie/Joffrey and their clear claim to the throne, regardless of circumstances.


But he changed his mind about him when he saw how clever he really was. So much so, in fact, that he made him serve as the Hand in his stead.

Tyrion has zero claim over the throne; so that's not even an issue. But Tywin is not likely to blindly take Cersei's side over Tyrion anymore.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Tyrion has zero claim over the throne; so that's not even an issue. But Tywin is not likely to blindly take Cersei's side over Tyrion anymore.


Yeah, for Tywin at this point, it's gotta be about who can hold onto power. Tyrion has been doing, frankly, a magnificent job every step of the way. And the reason he's HAD to do such a magnificent job is because Cersei and Joffrey have been screwing up so, ahem, royally.

If Tywin has half a brain, Lannister family dynamics are about due for some updating. And Tywin definitely has well over half a brain.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

madscientist said:


> I'm not sure about that: Tywin has been very clear in the past about his complete disgust at Tyrion due to his physique. Not sure that he will be willing to get over it and prefer him over Cersie/Joffrey and their clear claim to the throne, regardless of circumstances.


Tywin's wife, Joanna, also died giving birth to Tyrion. Besides his grotesque physique I think both Cersai and Tywin never got over the lost of her and in some ways blame him.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

robojerk said:


> Tywin's wife, Joanna, also died giving birth to Tyrion. Besides his grotesque physique I think both Cersai and Tywin never got over the lost of her and in some ways blame him.


But there was that scene where Tywin was explaining to Tyrion why he was sending him to King's Landing, and he revealed that he takes him much more seriously than he did before (in part because he's run out of candidates for Competent Child). And since then, Tyrion has done nothing but justify Tywin's decision and earn respect. As opposed to, say, his various siblings, who have not exactly coated themselves and the family name in glory.

As I said, if Tywin has half a brain in his head, once Tywin sees what's been going on at King's Landing Tyrion will be his new golden-haired child. So to speak.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> This is probably correct. I just wish they had shown Stannis at least seem like he might be concerned about his whereabouts. I guess Stannis was just tunnel vision on a mission. Wow is that one brave, determined man, I will give him that.


Remember when Stannis was told that "hundreds will die" and he responded with "thousands"? Stannis is humorless and serious. If it took killing every last one of his men to get the Iron Throne, he'd take that as acceptable losses. He'd be an absolutely horrible king. It's hard to imagine how he has the followers he does, to be honest.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> I guessed what it must have been immediately when she said she had googled Rains of Castamere.
> 
> Link to big spoiler from the books:
> 
> ...


Aww, hell. THAT was the one thing I was hoping wouldn't be spoiled because I was looking forward to her reaction.

It's also the event I'm most looking forward to seeing on screen now that The Battle of Blackwater Bay has been shown. Even more so considering how well they depicted Blackwater.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

tiassa said:


> I think the deal between Tywin and Robert was "You get the throne, but my daughter is your queen".


Tywin doesn't want to be King. When things go wrong, The King gets the blame, and possbly assassinated. by placing his daughter as the Queen, he puts himself in a position to influence Royal policy to his benefit.

All the benefits, none of the risk.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Remember when Stannis was told that "hundreds will die" and he responded with "thousands"? Stannis is humorless and serious. If it took killing every last one of his men to get the Iron Throne, he'd take that as acceptable losses. He'd be an absolutely horrible king. It's hard to imagine how he has the followers he does, to be honest.


I've always assumed that Stannis's large group of supporters was due to him offically the next in line for the throne after Robert died. Robert has no legitimate sons, so the King's next oldest brother is the next in the line of succession. They likely thought his intensity could be tempered in a time of peace with more level headed advisers or a decent man as Hand of the King. (Pure speculation, I don't think this was directly addressed anywhere)

The bannermen that supported Renly shared your opinion of Stannis. They chose to align with teh NEXT in the line of succession after Stannis since Renly had charisma and was well liked.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Ereth said:


> Remember when Stannis was told that "hundreds will die" and he responded with "thousands"? Stannis is humorless and serious. If it took killing every last one of his men to get the Iron Throne, he'd take that as acceptable losses.


Oh well I guess that makes sense from what we've been shown of him.



Fleegle said:


> Aww, hell. THAT was the one thing I was hoping wouldn't be spoiled because I was looking forward to her reaction.
> 
> It's also the event I'm most looking forward to seeing on screen now that The Battle of Blackwater Bay has been shown. Even more so considering how well they depicted Blackwater.


For the record, I never read the link they just posted. I read just what's on this page here:


Spoiler



http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Rains_of_Castamere
The "Major Performances" at the bottom is where I learned what I learned.... then got the F off that site





Fleegle said:


> I've always assumed that Stannis's large group of supporters was due to him offically the next in line for the throne after Robert died. Robert has no legitimate sons, so the King's next oldest brother is the next in the line of succession. *They likely thought his intensity could be tempered in a time of peace with more level headed advisers or a decent man as Hand of the King. *(Pure speculation, I don't think this was directly addressed anywhere)


And would that be likely at all with Davos as his hand?


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

pmyers said:


> boy....some guys will do anything to have a private converstation with a girl... LOL


Actually, I'm a girl )


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I guessed what it must have been immediately when she said she had googled Rains of Castamere.
> 
> Link to big spoiler from the books:
> 
> ...


More spoilers, don't read them:


Spoiler



I figured it had to be, but I was wondering how bad it was. From her PM to me, it doesn't sound like she's completely spoiled. She said that "Robb dies in a battle with Tywin and something about a red wedding." I made sure to not give her ANYTHING in my PM response.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I think we should stop talking about Cristina's link to avoid spoiling her or anyone else any further. Even talking about how big a spoiler it is or how much she's been spoiled may be a further spoiler for her or any of the other non book readers!


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> But he changed his mind about him when he saw how clever he really was. So much so, in fact, that he made him serve as the Hand in his stead.
> 
> Tyrion has zero claim over the throne; so that's not even an issue. But Tywin is not likely to blindly take Cersei's side over Tyrion anymore.


This is how I see it. Tywin is a behind the scenes chess player and puppeteer. He's going to use whatever it takes to consolidate his power. If he thinks that the powers that be in King's Landing are backing Tyrion, he's going to back him (not as King obviously, but as his "power broker" in Westeros). If he feels that backing Joffrey/Ceirce is his best move, that's what he'll do. One thing to consider is that now that Tywin IS in King's Landing, he might not NEED Tyrion to be his hand any longer and might feel he can control Joffrey/Ceirce by himself. But that's what he needs to determine once the smoke clears.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But there was that scene where Tywin was explaining to Tyrion why he was sending him to King's Landing, and he revealed that he takes him much more seriously than he did before (in part because he's run out of candidates for Competent Child). And since then, Tyrion has done nothing but justify Tywin's decision and earn respect. As opposed to, say, his various siblings, who have not exactly coated themselves and the family name in glory.
> 
> As I said, if Tywin has half a brain in his head, once Tywin sees what's been going on at King's Landing Tyrion will be his new golden-haired child. So to speak.


Of course, there's another factor heading toward KL and that's Jamie. He's going to side with his sister and we know Tywin has a lot of respect for him. So that's another thing for Tywin to consider, should Jamie make it to KL.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Fleegle said:


> Tywin doesn't want to be King. When things go wrong, The King gets the blame, and possbly assassinated. by placing his daughter as the Queen, he puts himself in a position to influence Royal policy to his benefit.
> 
> All the benefits, none of the risk.


Which is why I say, he's the Dick Chaney of Westeros


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> And would that be likely at all with Davos as his hand?


I see Davos as a pretty calm, smart, and cautios guy. His past might be a little different, but he seems like someone who would have matured well.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Which is why I say, he's the Dick Chaney of Westeros


Cheney.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> I see Davos as a pretty calm, smart, and cautios guy. His past might be a little different, but he seems like someone who would have matured well.


I agree. And he's the reason I can't hate the idea of Stannis as King. At least he could not possibly be worse than Joffrey with Cercei in his ear!


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> I agree. And he's the reason I can't hate the idea of Stannis as King. At least he could not possibly be worse than Joffrey with Cercei in his ear!


Ah. But do not forget the Red Priestess. Do you really want an evil sorcerer near the king?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

mostman said:


> Ah. But do not forget the Red Priestess. Do you really want an evil sorcerer near the king?


I do not but he left her behind so I have to assume had he been successful in taking KL that she would not have factored in.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Of course, there's another factor heading toward KL and that's Jamie. He's going to side with his sister and we know Tywin has a lot of respect for him. So that's another thing for Tywin to consider, should Jamie make it to KL.


But again, Jamie hasn't exactly done the family proud lately. He terribly botched a battle with Robb, got captured, and had to cut a deal with his enemy to slink away under guard with his tail between his legs.

Meanwhile, Tyrion saved the kingdom.


photoshopgrl said:


> I do not but he left her behind so I have to assume had he been successful in taking KL that she would not have factored in.


Do you really think that if Stannis had won, Melisandre wouldn't have been a huge influence over his reign?

Seriously?!?

By the way, for those who like to know such things, the producers have announced many of the characters that will be introduced in Season Three. http://blastr.com/2012/05/which-new-characters-will.php


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Do you really think that if Stannis had won, Melisandre wouldn't have been a huge influence over his reign?
> Seriously?!?


I don't know! Maybe he didn't plan to ever bring her over. It's not like Davos would mind her being out of the picture.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

mostman said:


> Ah. But do not forget the Red Priestess. Do you really want an evil sorcerer near the king?


Evil? I don't know that I would call her that. Driven. Convinced that she is right. Willing to do questionable things in pursuit of the common good.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

A question asked pages ago was about Cersei's comment 'the bears in the north, the fox in the south'.

House Florent's sigil is a fox, so I would assume that is what the story references.

House Florent is a Southern house, connected to House Tyrell by location but to Stannis by marraige. Stannis' wife is a Florent.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I was hoping for some interesting conflict during the battle, when Tyrion tries to burn Stannis's forces, who have been "blessed" at some point by the fire witch. Oh well. Great episode anyway.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

A question asked pages ago was about Cersei's comment 'the bears in the north, the fox in the south'.

House Florent's sigil is a fox, so I would assume that is what the story references.

House Florent is a Southern house, connected to House Tyrell by location but to Stannis by marraige. Stannis' wife is a Florent.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

billypritchard said:


> Evil? I don't know that I would call her that. Driven. Convinced that she is right. Willing to do questionable things in pursuit of the common good.


I don't want this to devolve into a discussion about religion and politics, but Melissandre is - at the very least - a religious zealot who wants power. Why do you think that is? to spread harmony and love?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pmyers said:


> boy....some guys will do anything to have a private converstation with a girl... LOL





jehma said:


> Actually, I'm a girl )


How very interesting...go on...tell us more...


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I don't want this to devolve into a discussion about religion and politics, but Melissandre is - at the very least - a religious zealot who wants power. Why do you think that is? to spread harmony and love?


Is it her reason for wanting power that makes her evil then? There are a lot of people on this show who want power, are they all evil?

And how can we have this discussion without touching religion and politics? The night is dark and full of terrors, Anubys.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> By the way, for those who like to know such things, the producers have announced many of the characters that will be introduced in Season Three. http://blastr.com/2012/05/which-new-characters-will.php


Some of those names make me very happy.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

billypritchard said:


> Is it her reason for wanting power that makes her evil then? There are a lot of people on this show who want power, are they all evil?
> 
> And how can we have this discussion without touching religion and politics? The night is dark and full of terrors, Anubys.


Actually, yes, they are evil. At least from the POV of the other people who want power, but aren't with the "evil" ones.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> By the way, for those who like to know such things, the producers have announced many of the characters that will be introduced in Season Three. http://blastr.com/2012/05/which-new-characters-will.php


My favorite that is not there is



Spoiler



Oberon Martell. I enjoyed his cockiness. I guess he will be in Season 4.





Ereth said:


> Some of those names make me very happy.


But I agree with this. There are some names there I thought we might not see.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

billypritchard said:


> Evil? I don't know that I would call her that. Driven. Convinced that she is right. Willing to do questionable things in pursuit of the common good.


I usually draw the line for evil when a woman births a crawling shadow monster. Your standards may differ


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

mostman said:


> I usually draw the line for evil when a woman births a crawling shadow monster. Your standards may differ


LOL!


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Remember when Stannis was told that "hundreds will die" and he responded with "thousands"? Stannis is humorless and serious. If it took killing every last one of his men to get the Iron Throne, he'd take that as acceptable losses. He'd be an absolutely horrible king. It's hard to imagine how he has the followers he does, to be honest.


Some of Stannis's followers are due to the Red Preistess annointing him as the messiah of the Lord of Light.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

netringer said:


> Some of Stannis's followers are due to the Red Preistess annointing him as the messiah of the Lords of Light.


_Lord_ of Light. it's a monotheistic religion.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

billypritchard said:


> Is it her reason for wanting power that makes her evil then? There are a lot of people on this show who want power, are they all evil?
> 
> And how can we have this discussion without touching religion and politics? The night is dark and full of terrors, Anubys.


as others have said, most of them want power and, as the hound states, they are all killers.

But I get the feeling she wants to either convert you or kill you.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Fleegle said:


> Lord of Light. it's a monotheistic religion.


Fixed. I knew that.

You don't realize what a miracle it is that I accomplish these posts. I'M monodextrous using the non-dominant arm with my fat fingertips on a on screen touch keyboard.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Fleegle said:


> _Lord_ of Light. it's a monotheistic religion.


Ahhh, appearantly Matthos did NOT die in the wildfire explosion, and is now posting on tivocommunity.com


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I have some thoughts on the series as a whole so far. I'm gonna watch it all over again when the finale ends and maybe start a new thread to discuss. Anyone object?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I have some thoughts on the series as a whole so far. I'm gonna watch it all over again when the finale ends and maybe start a new thread to discuss. Anyone object?


Why would anyone object? I've been moping around TCF for a day now just dying for someone to post in this thread 

Heck, I was even thinking of further entertaining the book readers of another "guess what's going to happen next" post


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Why would anyone object? I've been moping around TCF for a day now just dying for someone to post in this thread
> 
> Heck, I was even thinking of further entertaining the book readers of another "guess what's going to happen next" post


Oh, I love those posts, I'm just scared to respond


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Yay! Thread coming shortly then!


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

We have Brienne escorting Jamie Lannister, the loudmouth who keeps saying he's dying to take her on. I say he goes for her sword and she makes it so he can't sire any more Lannisters.

Which, BTW, what if Brienne shows up at Kings Landing with Ser Flowers thinking she killed Renly?

What about Gendry and J'? with Arya? 

And why don't these knights wear their helmets? The Hound had that hound helmet on da road with King Robert. Breienne doesn't need to show off her blondness. Even Tyrion wasn't wearing his helmet in battle when he was hit. 

Ignore the director wanting the camera to show who you are. Cover that melon!


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

photoshopgrl said:


> I have some thoughts on the series as a whole so far. I'm gonna watch it all over again when the finale ends and maybe start a new thread to discuss. Anyone object?


Just thought you all should know; HBO is re-broadcasting all of season 2 this Saturday. Also, for those of you who have Comcast and have Premieres, all of season 1 and almost all of season 2 are available now via Xfinity On Demand (I don't know for sure whether you need an HBO sub to see the On Demand stuff or not - not sure about that).

For SD on Comcast: Channel 555 (HBOSIGP), For HD on Comcast: Channel 807 (HBOHDP).

I hadn't been watching, as I didn't have an HBO subscription, but now with my Premiere, I was able to use the new Xfinity On Demand capability of the Premiere to catch up (it doesn't display quite as nice as recording it live off of an HBO channel).

But, it's better still to record it live, so I broke down and purchased an HBO sub, and I will be recording all of season 2 and viewing it again.

It is quite addicting, I'll say that. Sad that there's only one more episode this season.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

netringer said:


> And why don't these knights wear their helmets? The Hound had that hound helmet on da road with King Robert. Breienne doesn't need to show off her blondness. Even Tyrion wasn't wearing his helmet in battle when he was hit.


Actually Tyrion wasn't wearing his when he got hit. He has taken it off after they snuck out and thought they won...then he turns and sees the rush of men running and says "oh F" and then starts fighting, never putting it back on.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

mm2margaret said:


> I hadn't been watching, as I didn't have an HBO subscription, but now with my Premiere, I was able to use the new Xfinity On Demand capability of the Premiere to catch up (it doesn't display quite as nice as recording it live off of an HBO channel).


I like how you make it sound like all of us can access Xfinity on Demand if we have a Premiere.  Sure rub it in Mz California.

(As far as I know it is only available to Permiere owners that live in certain areas of CA. Someone correct me if I am wrong.)


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

netringer said:


> Which, BTW, what if Brienne shows up at Kings Landing with Ser Flowers thinking she killed Renly?


I don't think that's an issue. If I remember correctly, Loras believed all along it was Stannis that was responsible. I seem to recall that initially when it was Loras, his sister (Margery, I think?) and Littlefinger in the room/tent together, Margery said something about Brienne being responsible and Loras quickly defended her say it was Stannis.

About not wearing a helmet, there's something to be said for that, but then there's also the limited visibility and additional restricted mobility.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

MegaHertz67 said:


> Tyrion: Those are brave men knocking on our door...Let's go kill them.
> 
> That was awesome.!!!


Loved the dialog, but the combat around King's Landing bugged me.

I'm enough of a nerd that the poor tactics and strategy depicted bothered me. (A lot of that is probably the contraints of the TV show, but it still annoyed me.) Loved the rest of the episode though.

A roman legion would shred that defense; or really anyone who was training and disciplened in formation fighting. General melees right in front of the open gates are a good way to both rack up losses among the defenders and let the attackers sieze the gate with one lucky push.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> Loved the dialog, but the combat around King's Landing bugged me.
> 
> I'm enough of a nerd that the poor tactics and strategy depicted bothered me. (A lot of that is probably the contraints of the TV show, but it still annoyed me.) Loved the rest of the episode though.
> 
> A roman legion would shred that defense; or really anyone who was training and disciplened in formation fighting. General melees right in front of the open gates are a good way to both rack up losses among the defenders and let the attackers sieze the gate with one lucky push.


Yes it seemed like it would have been simpler and safer to just continue to drop stuff on their heads (why was there no burning oil?) and why didn't anyone bother to push the dang ladders off the wall?


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

jakerock said:


> Yes it seemed like it would have been simpler and safer to just continue to drop stuff on their heads (why was there no burning oil?) and why didn't anyone bother to push the dang ladders off the wall?


Well the initial charge made sense. _*If*_ Tyrion could have pushed Stannis's men back to the water's edge it'd be worth the losses. Bunch them up to deny them room to fight, complicate or prevent the unloading of reenforcements (hard to scramble out of a boat while people are stabbing you).

But when that failed they should have withdrawn inside the walls. Again, a specific raid to put the battering ram out of commision make sense; (assuming you aren't willing to drop a flask of wyldfire on it) but then you'd want to withdraw again to conserve your troops.

The whole reason you build big walls is to let you hold possitions with fewer men. Fighting for prolonged periods outside them just gives your enemies a fair fight by eliminating the multiplicative effect of the defenses.

(Heck if you _know_ a large relieving force is coming don't bother going outside at all. Just collapse a couple buildings behind the gates to render them battering ram proof and bleed your opponent with fire, arrows, and dropped items, or fun variations like boiling lead. Wait for the relieving force to pin the enemy against your anvil. Of if the enemy forms a defensive line away from the city _then_ sorte so he's being hit from in front and behind)


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I hope the book does a better job describing the battle. I agree, the TV interpretation seemed like a pretty weak defense. "Light the water and hope it works" with nearly no other strategy.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

mm2margaret said:


> Just thought you all should know; HBO is re-broadcasting all of season 2 this Saturday. Also, for those of you who have Comcast and have Premieres, all of season 1 and almost all of season 2 are available now via Xfinity On Demand (I don't know for sure whether you need an HBO sub to see the On Demand stuff or not - not sure about that).
> 
> For SD on Comcast: Channel 555 (HBOSIGP), For HD on Comcast: Channel 807 (HBOHDP).


Thanks for the head's up. As an FYI, your info is good for your area only, which I believe is the SF Bay Area. That's the only region getting Comcast VOD thru Tivo so far (as jakerock noted). Same with your channel #s--your area only.

The best route--simply record the marathon on Saturday! I've got all 19 eps recorded, so I'm good! Gotta love those 2TB Elites.:up:


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I hope the book does a better job describing the battle. I agree, the TV interpretation seemed like a pretty weak defense. "Light the water and hope it works" with nearly no other strategy.


Or even just glossed over it. That can often work at least as well as a good description.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I hope the book does a better job describing the battle. I agree, the TV interpretation seemed like a pretty weak defense. "Light the water and hope it works" with nearly no other strategy.


I'm sure it does. I was reading a comparison of book vs show for this episode and it described so much more going on.

However, to be fair, there wasn't much they could do in Kings Landing. First they were outnumbered 5 to 1 in troops, and 10 to 1 in ships. Second, I think Stannis is well known for his military leadership. Their only real shot was to hope the wildfire won the battle for them. Even doing as much damage as it did, they were still in terrible trouble (and probably would have lost) until Renly/Tywin showed up.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

When Tywin and Kevan were discussing it they expected them to lose--that's why Kevan wanted Cercei and Joffrey to run. I imagine Tywin was overjoyed to see how well they were doing when he got there. 

I did wonder why they couldn't have reinforced the mud gate with a couple weeks of notice.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

jakerock said:


> I like how you make it sound like all of us can access Xfinity on Demand if we have a Premiere.  Sure rub it in Mz California.
> 
> (As far as I know it is only available to Permiere owners that live in certain areas of CA. Someone correct me if I am wrong.)


Oops! Sorry..........


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jonathan_S said:


> A roman legion would shred that defense; or really anyone who was training and disciplened in formation fighting. General melees right in front of the open gates are a good way to both rack up losses among the defenders and let the attackers sieze the gate with one lucky push.


One issue is that GoT is based on a historical era (the Middle Ages) when there were no professional, standing, well-trained armies. Most of the "soldiers" were farmers, whose training generally consisted of (if they were lucky) being handed a sword or (more likely) carrying their own farm tools, being pointed at the enemy, and told "kill as many of those guys as you can."

Which mostly didn't happen, because medieval warfare only rarely resorted to battle. It was more often a case of sieges, capturing key towns and castles, destroying the enemies' lands, and generally trying to convince the enemy's men that they'd be better off on your side.

I have worked on a war that lasted nine years, and resulted in the conquest of Normandy, over the course of which the two sides' armies never once met in battle. Nine years of warfare, the conquest of a major state, not one single battle.

Martin's problem, such that it is, is that he has a fairly romantic view of medieval warfare that doesn't make a whole lot of sense (taken in part from romantic views the medieval people had about their warfare, from which we get lots of fun but largely mythical notions about knights), and doesn't seem to really understand the realities of how warfare with those kinds of troops and that level of technology worked.

Then again, his stories are much cooler than the real thing, so there's that.


----------



## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

Wish Rob had attacked right after daddy Lannister rode in to save the day and the season had ended right there with Joffry's head on a stick.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

vurbano said:


> Wish Rob had attacked right after daddy Lannister rode in to save the day and the season had ended right there with Joffry's head on a stick.


Sansa: "Joffrey will. The worst ones always live"


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Sansa: "Joffrey will. The worst ones always live"


Of course in this show, it really doesn't matter. Good, bad, same difference...you either die horribly, or suffer so terribly you'd almost prefer a horrible death.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I just rewatched. I love that Tyrion had to chop the guys leg off with his axe in order to get his head down where he could reach it.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course in this show, it really doesn't matter. Good, bad, same difference...you either die horribly, or suffer so terribly you'd almost prefer a horrible death.


/daydreaming of watching Joffrey suffering so terribly that he'd almost prefer a horrible death

ahhhh...nice...


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> One issue is that GoT is based on a historical era (the Middle Ages) when there were no professional, standing, well-trained armies. Most of the "soldiers" were farmers, whose training generally consisted of (if they were lucky) being handed a sword or (more likely) carrying their own farm tools, being pointed at the enemy, and told "kill as many of those guys as you can."
> 
> Which mostly didn't happen, because medieval warfare only rarely resorted to battle. It was more often a case of sieges, capturing key towns and castles, destroying the enemies' lands, and generally trying to convince the enemy's men that they'd be better off on your side.
> 
> ...


I think a lot of us have that romantic view of medieval battles. Of a bunch of armored soldiers duking it out over an open field with swords and battle axes. Of catapults of rocks and fire arrows. That's the legendary version of the story. Since these books (and TV series) is a work of fiction, I have no problem with the historical inaccuracies. Not to mention, Westeros is a fictional place in a supposedly fiction timeline. So really, we shouldn't be complaining about historical inaccuracies. Maybe that's just how things were in that place in that timeline, and it was different from what we know of as Middle Ages Europe.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

jehma said:


> I think we should stop talking about Cristina's link to avoid spoiling her or anyone else any further. Even talking about how big a spoiler it is or how much she's been spoiled may be a further spoiler for her or any of the other non book readers!


Definitely this! Reading the comments about the spoilers are almost as bad as reading the spoilers themselves. I already know more about what that spoiler could be than I wanted to. Why is it so hard to keep these threads about the television show that has aired up to this point?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

goblue97 said:


> Definitely this! Reading the comments about the spoilers are almost as bad as reading the spoilers themselves. I already know more about what that spoiler could be than I wanted to. Why is it so hard to keep these threads about the television show that has aired up to this point?


I'm pretty sure posts like this are just asking for it to continue considering everyone had already switched topics back to the episode long before you complained. But thanks for all the input on the episode!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I'm pretty sure posts like this are just asking for it to continue considering everyone had already switched topics back to the episode long before you complained. But thanks for all the input on the episode!


:up:


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I watched the episode 10 trailer on HBO GO. Along with the TV guide description, it has a couple of spoilers.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

netringer said:


> I watched the episode 10 trailer on HBO GO. Along with the TV guide description, it has a couple of spoilers.


If I can make it until Monday afternoon without spoilers it might be a miracle.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> If I can make it until Monday afternoon without spoilers it might be a miracle.


Monday afternoon? Heh...you better have a good excuse. What, is the extra 10 minutes going to put it past your bedtime? 

But about the previews, for most shows I don't mind watching them. However, for some reason with this show I don't want to know anything about whats going to happen, so I don't watch them. Maybe it's because I got started without them...I didn't learn about this show until this year, so by then there was no reason to watch a preview when I could just watch the next episode. I did check out the season 2 preview, but other than that, I haven't watched any of the week to week previews.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> Monday afternoon? Heh...you better have a good excuse. What, is the extra 10 minutes going to put it past your bedtime?


Nope, tonight is my Dave Matthews Show so I won't be watching this until I get home tomorrow.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

What? No HBO GO on your iPad so you can do both at once?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Nope, tonight is my Dave Matthews Show so I won't be watching this until I get home tomorrow.


real fans just call them DMB


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Nope, tonight is my Dave Matthews Show so I won't be watching this until I get home tomorrow.


Oh, that's right. I forgot you mentioned it before. Well, have fun.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> real fans just call them DMB


Actually, she did last time, and then some of us had no clue what she was talking about so she had to spell it out anyway.

Edit: Nevermind. Now I got the joke


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Fraknly you should record DMB and watch it time delayed...


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

jakerock said:


> Fraknly you should record DMB and watch it time delayed...


I believe she was going to a live concert.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Rickvz said:


> I believe she was going to a live concert.


Your point being..?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Ha! This thread is fun now. I won't get into my OCD 4 DMB (yes, that's my actual plate) but suffice to say, it was soooo worth the delay of seeing the finale. Yes, even GoT finale!


----------

