# TiVo adding MPEG-4 support to TiVo HD



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It appears TiVo is doing a bit of a 180 on supporting TiVo HDs in areas converting to MPEG-4. (the original S3 is still SOL though) Check out the bottom of this TiVo support page...

https://support.tivo.com/articles/Features_Use/Comcast-Transitioning-to-MPEG4-in-Select-Markets



> *TiVo HD and TiVo HD XL:* TiVo is working on a software update which will bring MPEG4 capability to TiVo HD DVRs. Customers can expect this update sometime in the first half of 2016.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> It appears TiVo is doing a bit of a 180 on supporting TiVo HDs in areas converting to MPEG-4. (the original S3 is still SOL though) Check out the bottom of this TiVo support page...


Ha been noted and discussed here and in the other place and on Zatz.

But I think it's been fairly well established by the experts here that the antiquated hardware doesn't support it, so Tivo will fail in the effort. Also that the cheapskate deadbeat whining HD owners don't deserve it anyway.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Actually the hardware does support it. In fact they have a TiVo in the Australia/New Zealand market which is based on the TiVo HD platform that actually supports MPEG-4 right now. Which is likely why this update is only being released for the HD platform. They're probably just porting over that code. (IIRC they were using v14.xxx whereas the S3 units were on 11.xx)


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Actually the hardware does support it. In fact they have a TiVo in the Australia/New Zealand market which is based on the TiVo HD platform that actually supports MPEG-4 right now. Which is likely why this update is only being released for the HD platform. They're probably just porting over that code. (IIRC they were using v14.xxx whereas the S3 units were on 11.xx)


Is that right? Wow.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Wil said:


> Ha been noted and discussed here and in the other place and on Zatz.
> 
> But I think it's been fairly well established by the experts here that the antiquated hardware doesn't support it, so Tivo will fail in the effort. Also that the cheapskate deadbeat whining HD owners don't deserve it anyway.


Not sure where you got that since it is 180 degrees out of phase with reality.



Dan203 said:


> Actually the hardware does support it. In fact they have a TiVo in the Australia/New Zealand market which is based on the TiVo HD platform that actually supports MPEG-4 right now. Which is likely why this update is only being released for the HD platform. They're probably just porting over that code. (IIRC they were using v14.xxx whereas the S3 units were on 11.xx)


The downunder h/w is not the only indicator. See section 2.1.b in this post for one:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showpost.php?p=7097293...6


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Wil said:


> Ha been noted and discussed here and in the other place and on Zatz.
> 
> But I think it's been fairly well established by the experts here that the antiquated hardware doesn't support it, so Tivo will fail in the effort. Also that the cheapskate deadbeat whining HD owners don't deserve it anyway.


You forgot the sarcasm font tag.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

unitron said:


> You forgot the sarcasm font tag.


He's from the Trump school of public speaking.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Wil said:


> But I think it's been fairly well established by the experts here that the antiquated hardware doesn't support it, so Tivo will fail in the effort. Also that the cheapskate deadbeat whining HD owners don't deserve it anyway.


Even the original S3 OLED had a hardware MPEG4 decoder. Unfortunately no existing code to support it like the HD. 

Scott


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

unitron said:


> You forgot the sarcasm font tag.


Cheating. I take no responsibility for zooms.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

HerronScott said:


> Even the original S3 OLED had a hardware MPEG4 decoder. Unfortunately no existing code to support it like the HD.


It will play back pushed MP4s, and also stream them.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> It will play back pushed MP4s, and also stream them.


It is possible he meant there is existing software in the HD branch, that never made it into the s3-distributed version, that will allow recording of the mpeg4 channels. I believe there may be some truth to that. While patching mpeg4 channel recording into existing code for the HD may be trivial, from what I hear, for the s3 it might require a little actual effort.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

According to this CNET article: http://www.cnet.com/au/news/seven-to-launch-crippled-tivo/

"Unlike the US subscription model, no monthly fee is required to access TiVo's features, which include an eight-day electronic program guide (EPG), pausing live TV, a recommendation service and recording digital free-to-air channels to its 160GB hard disk."

Does this mean every Tivo HD will have lifetime service after this update?


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> Does this mean every Tivo HD will have lifetime service after this update?


Only if some poor (former) Tivo contractor makes a VERY bad mistake.

All Tivo HDs can become lifetime by changing, as I recall from the old days, about six bytes of tivoapp. But nobody who knows how to do that will ever tell anyone else, and as far as I know nobody ever actually did it except briefly for proof of concept. I don't think any tech company ever had as loyal and respectful a group of customers as Tivo hackers in the day.

No, the OZ spigot will most certainly be turned off in this process. Maybe that's what the beta test is for!


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> According to this CNET article: http://www.cnet.com/au/news/seven-to-launch-crippled-tivo/
> 
> "Unlike the US subscription model, no monthly fee is required to access TiVo's features, which include an eight-day electronic program guide (EPG), pausing live TV, a recommendation service and recording digital free-to-air channels to its 160GB hard disk."
> 
> Does this mean every Tivo HD will have lifetime service after this update?


No? Was there supposed to be a smiley face there?

Scott


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

shwru980r said:


> According to this CNET article: http://www.cnet.com/au/news/seven-to-launch-crippled-tivo/
> 
> "Unlike the US subscription model, no monthly fee is required to access TiVo's features, which include an eight-day electronic program guide (EPG), pausing live TV, a recommendation service and recording digital free-to-air channels to its 160GB hard disk."
> 
> Does this mean every Tivo HD will have lifetime service after this update?


Only if you accept exclusively Australian guide data


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> According to this CNET article: http://www.cnet.com/au/news/seven-to-launch-crippled-tivo/
> 
> "Unlike the US subscription model, no monthly fee is required to access TiVo's features, which include an eight-day electronic program guide (EPG), pausing live TV, a recommendation service and recording digital free-to-air channels to its 160GB hard disk."
> 
> Does this mean every Tivo HD will have lifetime service after this update?


I thought the Aussie HD had a 320GB drive stock?


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

unitron said:


> I thought the Aussie HD had a 320GB drive stock?


Looks like there is both a 160GB and a 320GB model.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiVo_digital_video_recorders#Series3_TiVo_HD


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

HerronScott said:


> No? Was there supposed to be a smiley face there?
> 
> Scott


No. I seem to remember board wisdom that stated there weren't many programmers left at Tivo who could work on the S3 code to make a change to keep youtube. Maybe they could give us youtube back when they fix the mpeg 4 issue.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

All of the apps on the S3 used a protocol called HME, which basically worked like remote desktop. The app itself ran on a server and only fed you the UI to interact with. TiVo seems to be in the process of shutting down all HME support, even on the newer boxes. So it's unlikely they would put any effort into creating a new HME based YouTube app. And the hardware in the S3 is not capable of running HTML5 apps like the newer boxes. (the Premiere barely can and it's like 5x faster then the S3 hardware)


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

https://support.tivo.com/articles/Features_Use/Comcast-Transitioning-to-MPEG4-in-Select-Markets now says


> TiVo HD and TiVo HD XL: TiVo has implemented a software update which will bring MPEG-4 capability to TiVo HD DVRs. Active HD/HDXL customers can expect this update sometime during the week of 1/17/16.


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## RayChuang88 (Sep 5, 2002)

Why didn't they do this like last summer?  Could have kept my old TiVo HDXL still active even now.

Mind you, I do like my TiVo Roamio Pro with its six-tuner capability. I wonder could I "unretire" my TiVo HDXL so it becomes my kitchen DVR (yeah, I'll have to get a second CableCARD, but still....).


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Yeah, I bought a Roamio on the last round of deals because of the upcoming switch to MPEG4, only to discover that they're upgrading the TiVoHDs.

On the bright side, though -- before I got a cablecard for the Roamio, I set it up on the antenna, and discovered some OTA channels that aren't in my cable lineup. 

So now that we finally got a cablecard for the Roamio, I've set the TiVoHD up to receive both cable and OTA again to pick up those couple of channels. If I hadn't had the new Roamio to play with, I would never have found them. 

And if we have to replace the caps in the TiVoHD, at least we won't be without a TiVo while it is being fixed.

So it's not all bad.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

RayChuang88 said:


> Mind you, I do like my TiVo Roamio Pro with its six-tuner capability. I wonder could I "unretire" my TiVo HDXL so it becomes my kitchen DVR (yeah, I'll have to get a second CableCARD, but still....).


As long as you have lifetime service on it!

Scott


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

RayChuang88 said:


> Why didn't they do this like last summer?  Could have kept my old TiVo HDXL still active even now.
> 
> Mind you, I do like my TiVo Roamio Pro with its six-tuner capability. I wonder could I "unretire" my TiVo HDXL so it becomes my kitchen DVR (yeah, I'll have to get a second CableCARD, but still....).


I would suggest getting a Mini.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

RayChuang88 said:


> Why didn't they do this like last summer?  Could have kept my old TiVo HDXL still active even now.
> 
> Mind you, I do like my TiVo Roamio Pro with its six-tuner capability. I wonder could I "unretire" my TiVo HDXL so it becomes my kitchen DVR (yeah, I'll have to get a second CableCARD, but still....).


If it's lifetime it will work, if not then it's garbage. They will no longer allow S3 and older units to be activated on monthly/yearly service contracts.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> If it's lifetime it will work, if not then it's garbage. They will no longer allow S3 and older units to be activated on monthly/yearly service contracts.


If he called up and said he only de-activated the S3 because of the MP4 thing, he might be able to escalate up to someone who could re-instate the sub.

Or better yet, give him lifetime on it for $99.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

Any idea what the software version will be when the update arrives? I'm currently at 11.0m-01-2 on my HD.

Does this mean transfers from the HD to PC (via TD or kmttg) might now use transport stream format? How about from HD to S4+? It might go from painfully slow to mere annoyingly slow.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

justen_m said:


> Does this mean transfers from the HD to PC (via TD or kmttg) might now use transport stream format?


As an option (same as S4+), yeah -- and hopefully the other way, too.



> _How about from HD to S4+?_


TiVo-to-TiVo transfers have always used a different method, that's neither transport nor program stream. Expect no change there. (It should already be about as fast as a transport stream transfer anyway.)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

H.264 doesn't work well in a Program Stream, which is why they created the TiVo-TS format in the first place. So if they upgrade the software to include H.264 video then they will also have to add support for TiVo-TS files. (plus the Aus/NZ TiVos were actually the first to support TiVo-TS, so if they're using that code base then it would be automatic)


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> So if they upgrade the software to include H.264 video then they will also have to add support for TiVo-TS files.


To meet the standard of "supporting" cable companies' MPEG-4 channels, TiVo doesn't really _have_ to support transfer of H.264 recordings to/from the TiVo HD at all -- only recording and playback. But it would seem simpler to include that support (that already exists on other models), rather than going out of their way to cripple the THD. However, I can imagine someone seeing it differently -- i.e., it's another thing to have to test, another support burden, so just turn it off instead. We know that they'd really prefer not to do _anything_ for the THD, given that they'd already stopped development on it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That's true. They could just disable it so they don't have to test or support it. Although it's not like TiVoToGo is really an advertised feature any more, so they could just say "use at your own risk".


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## Mike Richardson (Sep 24, 2012)

Any updates on this? I don't think my TiVo was upgraded.

Do you have to be active on Comcast right now? I have a lifetime 652 TiVo that is on OTA.

Our apartment complex has been without a cable TV provider since last year (the old one went bankrupt after the FCC apparently fined them into oblivion).

However, Comcast is now wiring the place up. They have been working on the utility poles, and under the street. I'm told that they will be running all new wiring to every apartment (even though there's at least two previous systems in the wall, but one may have been some kind of master antenna from the 70's, and even the newer one was a crap job).


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Mike Richardson said:


> Any updates on this? I don't think my TiVo was upgraded.
> 
> Do you have to be active on Comcast right now? I have a lifetime 652 TiVo that is on OTA.


No news yet although the article indicated updates should start this week. Even when they do start updates, they usually start with a smaller subset of boxes before enabling it for all of them. Hopefully by the end of the month if they really start this week?

Are you in a Comcast area that's switched to MPEG4?

Scott


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> No news yet although the article indicated updates should start this week. Even when they do start updates, they usually start with a smaller subset of boxes before enabling it for all of them. Hopefully by the end of the month if they really start this week?
> 
> Are you in a Comcast area that's switched to MPEG4?
> 
> Scott


It said we'd receive the update this vweek. It didn't say they'd start the updates this week. Historically updates where staged over weeks to balance the demand on tivo servers. Think back to the dial up days. There can't be that many units being updated. I don't think tivo will need to stage the update.

Updates use the alternate partions. Historically this exposes some failing drives. Many of the units are over 5 years old. I wonder how many customers are going to think the new software broke their tivo.

I'd expect the update Wednesday or Thursday, reducing possible phone calls over the weekend.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I agree....Given I just subscribe to locals anyways, I'd almost rather NOT get the update as everything is working fine right now......


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

lew said:


> It said we'd receive the update this vweek. It didn't say they'd start the updates this week. Historically updates where staged over weeks to balance the demand on tivo servers. Think back to the dial up days. There can't be that many units being updated. I don't think tivo will need to stage the update.
> 
> Updates use the alternate partions. Historically this exposes some failing drives. Many of the units are over 5 years old. I wonder how many customers are going to think the new software broke their tivo.
> .


I think your second paragraph would be a valid reason for them to want to stage it to see what/if any kind of call volume they get.

Scott


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> I think your second paragraph would be a valid reason for them to want to stage it to see what/if any kind of call volume they get.
> 
> Scott


Tivo said we'll get the upgrade this week. Maybe they'll stage it over a few days. The historic reason for staging rollouts no longer exists. The latest Roamio rollout was less then a week, excluding customers on the early list.

The software was used in Australia for years. Projected release date went from first half of the year to the middle of the first month. Tivo is rarely (ever?) that far ahead of an announced date. That suggests no issue with beta users.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

11.0n.B1-01-2-652 just arrived on our HD this morning. We don't have MPEG4 here so can't test. 

Scott


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> 11.0n.B1-01-2-652 just arrived on our HD this morning.


Have you by any chance looked at tivoapp and some of the important addresses?


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Wil said:


> Have you by any chance looked at tivoapp and some of the important addresses?


Not sure what you are asking about?

Scott


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Wil said:


> Have you by any chance looked at tivoapp and some of the important addresses?


Wrong board for your question.


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## kemcg (Mar 13, 2002)

Just got the software update here in California and we have our missing HD channels back! Thank you, TIVO!!


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

I took and reformatted the Tivo files that I sent to my computer into MP4 files a long time ago, so that I could put them on my tablet. I can pull them off the hard drive of the PC and send them to the TivoHD I have and it plays them. Not sure if an upgrade is needed. Unless by doing it my way having stripped the Tivo wrap makes it work.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

This update allows the unis to record H.264 channels. That's not currently possible.


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## Mike Richardson (Sep 24, 2012)

HerronScott said:


> No news yet although the article indicated updates should start this week. Even when they do start updates, they usually start with a smaller subset of boxes before enabling it for all of them. Hopefully by the end of the month if they really start this week?
> 
> Are you in a Comcast area that's switched to MPEG4?
> 
> Scott


I'm in Houston, so it's not an area that they are switching right now - but I expect it will happen eventually, similar to the analog reclamation.

I think Houston is 750 MHz but don't quote me on that.

I do think it's outstanding that they have (now) released the 11.0n software. It looks like it will eventually go to everyone.

I might even consider getting a new TiVo when I get Comcast, so I can keep the 652 going in the bedroom. Or I might take X1 for a year, if they offer it, but afterwards I would probably get another TiVo.

Obviously the 652 and 658 have hardware decoding of H.264. It's quite forward thinking actually. It is still a useful box.


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## caughey (May 26, 2007)

I expect this is being rolled out to all HDs (just because that is easier than picking and choosing), but I don't have it here yet.

I did get a message on the Roamio today saying it received the Fall 2015 update.  I still have the identical message from two months ago.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Mike Richardson said:


> Obviously the 652 and 658 have hardware decoding of H.264. It's quite forward thinking actually. It is still a useful box.


Even the original S3 OLED (648) had an MPEG4 hardware decoder. Just not pre-existing code that used it unlike the HD models.

Scott


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> To meet the standard of "supporting" cable companies' MPEG-4 channels, TiVo doesn't really _have_ to support transfer of H.264 recordings to/from the TiVo HD at all -- only recording and playback. But it would seem simpler to include that support (that already exists on other models), rather than going out of their way to cripple the THD. However, I can imagine someone seeing it differently -- i.e., it's another thing to have to test, another support burden, so just turn it off instead. We know that they'd really prefer not to do _anything_ for the THD, given that they'd already stopped development on it.


I'm sorry to say that apparently, I called it on this -- there are no transport stream transfers in 11.0n, only recording H.264 -- recordings that can't be extracted except by first transferring them to a Series 4+ TiVo, or as audio-only. This is based on others' reports (I have no TiVo HDs), and I'd still like more feedback (before I reverse this), but it seems to be true. I'm beyond disappointed, but not entirely surprised. (I'd have been more surprised before they failed to deliver H.265 or 4K transfers for the Bolt. Might as well undo that patch too, I guess.)  :down::down::down:


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Interesting. I guess that's why it's just 11.0n and not 14.x like the Aus/NZ units.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> I'm sorry to say that apparently, I called it on this -- there are no transport stream transfers in 11.0n, only recording H.264 -- recordings that can't be extracted except by first transferring them to a Series 4+ TiVo, or as audio-only. This is based on others' reports (I have no TiVo HDs), and I'd still like more feedback (before I reverse this), but it seems to be true. I'm beyond disappointed, but not entirely surprised. (I'd have been more surprised before they failed to deliver H.265 or 4K transfers for the Bolt. Might as well undo that patch too, I guess.)  :down::down::down:


So now that I have 11.0n, how will I know that a recording is in H.264 or not? The transfer will just fail?

I use kmttg. I still have TiVo Desktop Plus installed but all I use it for is to set what directories I want to share with the TiVos.

At least I can send recordings to the Roamio if I have to.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I believe that it will still transfer it but it will just be audio only.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Oh, right. I had read that elsewhere on TCF and had forgotten it already.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

murgatroyd said:


> At least I can send recordings to the Roamio if I have to.


So there's no reason yet to fear that a show recorded on an HD from an mpeg4 channel can't be transferred to a Roamio via normal tivo-tivo? And once on the Roamio, then from the Roamio via kmttg to wherever? And, having done that, from wherever back to any s3+ Tivo via pyTivo?

Has anyone tried that flow?


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## buccobruce (Aug 25, 2007)

i have had success transferring mp4 from my tivo hd to my roamio, then using ctivo to download to my computer.

i haven't tried returning the program to the tivo hd with pytivo yet, but i would imagine it would work as it has worked with mp4 file is the past.

bb


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

buccobruce said:


> i have had success transferring mp4 from my tivo hd to my roamio, then using ctivo to download to my computer.


Did you try a ctivo download directly from the Tivo HD?

EDITED TO ADD: OK, right, you said in another thread that didn't work. Audio only?



buccobruce said:


> i haven't tried returning the program to the tivo hd with pytivo yet, but i would imagine it would work as it has worked with mp4 file is the past.


It should, but it would be nice to have that confirmed.


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## andrewc2 (Sep 27, 2011)

The transferring as just audio may just be a codec issue, where converting it with something like FFmpeg might correct that issue.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

There is no standard way to store H.264 in a program stream. I haven't seen one of these files myself, but I'm betting there is no video at all.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> There is no standard way to store H.264 in a program stream. I haven't seen one of these files myself, but I'm betting there is no video at all.


 Yes, you get a very small file with just audio stream and no video stream.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

had a chat with TiVo tech support today about this. they want people who DON'T live in Comcast areas to send in requests to be added to a list to have their HD's updated with 11.0n.
I guess they're targeting Comcast first, and if enough people request it, then they'll start sending updates out in blankets - and the way they put it, if it gets approved, the people who sent in requests to be on the list will be updated first.
I asked - and will believe it when I see it


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

tvmaster2 said:


> had a chat with TiVo tech support today about this. they want people who DON'T live in Comcast areas to send in requests to be added to a list to have their HD's updated with 11.0n.
> I guess their targeting Comcast first, and if enough people request it, then they'll start sending updates out in blankets - and the way they put it, if it gets approved, the people who sent in requests to be on the list will be updated first.
> I asked - and will believe it when I see it


I think upgrades are first going to requesting customers who are currently are unable to view channels which are encoded as mpeg4.

I suggest specifically indicating that's the reason for your request. Consider supplying the name of one or more.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

lew said:


> I think upgrades are first going to requesting customers who are currently are unable to view channels which are encoded as mpeg4.
> 
> I suggest specifically indicating that's the reason for your request. Consider supplying the name of one or more.


one or more channels?


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

lew said:


> Wrong board for your question.


There was, at the time, very little activity on the subject there and at least some attention here.

Since, activity has picked up at the "right" board, thanks in particular to at least two members here who are sharing good information.

Yes, you are correct. That is the place to go.


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## Bighouse (Sep 3, 2004)

So, I contacted someone at TiVo via their chat tonight to ask about the "special offer" available to current S3 owners who will soon have units that are not capable of handling MPEG4. And, I'm disappointed. TiVo may have lost me as a future customer and I may just jump ship after having been with them as a loyal TiVo customer for over a decade and a half of time...am I wrong for feeling disappointed? I've bought every series release, except for the Bolt. And now I'm considering to take a vow to myself to never buy that unit or any other TiVo product because they seem to really dislike their customer base and don't ever do much to keep us happy.

The "special offer" is a refurbished Roamio 4 Tuner model for $24.99 with a monthly $14.99 service or a lifetime subscription for $349.99.

What irritates me is that it feels like I should NOT have to pay for a lifetime subscription when it's not like my unit was damaged or died from too wear and tear. In short, it's not may fault the S3 TiVo unit is soon to be a brick.

Makes me wonder if there really needs to be a class action lawsuit over this...


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Bighouse said:


> Makes me wonder if there really needs to be a class action lawsuit over this...


I'd certainly join a class action suit and I think it would win. I'd love to get a check in the mail for 3 cents in about 5 years! Sign me up.

The suit would focus on what "lifetime" meant at the time of the contract. How much upfront was that lifetime meant artificially imposed obsolescence? So, the judge will ask, how hard would it be for Tivo to provide mpeg4 capability to the s3? "Impossible" Tivo would say. Our side would say, and prove, "the capability is there, pretty much just a question of throwing a software switch." (true of the HD and only a minor exaggeration in the case of the s3.) Find for the plaintiffs; one hundred and seventy-five million kajillion dollars. Of which we get the aforementioned three cents each.


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## Bighouse (Sep 3, 2004)

Wil said:


> I'd certainly join a class action suit and I think it would win. I'd love to get a check in the mail for 3 cents in about 5 years! Sign me up.
> 
> The suit would focus on what "lifetime" meant at the time of the contract. How much upfront was that lifetime meant artificially imposed obsolescence? So, the judge will ask, how hard would it be for Tivo to provide mpeg4 capability to the s3? "Impossible" Tivo would say. Our side would say, and prove, "the capability is there, pretty much just a question of throwing a software switch." (true of the HD and only a minor exaggeration in the case of the s3.) Find for the plaintiffs; one hundred and seventy-five million kajillion dollars. Of which we get the aforementioned three cents each.


Yeah, I know how those work- but the possibility of losing one hundred and seventy-five million kajillion dollars might make TiVo thing harder about ways they can make a real offer to the users that seem fair to both parties.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Bighouse said:


> The "special offer" is a refurbished Roamio 4 Tuner model for $24.99 with a monthly $14.99 service or a lifetime subscription for $349.99.
> 
> What irritates me is that it feels like I should NOT have to pay for a lifetime subscription when it's not like my unit was damaged or died from too wear and tear. In short, it's not may fault the S3 TiVo unit is soon to be a brick.


Seems like a good deal to me given the current prices of lifetime service (and even when you compare it to the lifetime price before the increase last fall). I'm still glad I took advantage of the loyalty deal for the Roamio Pro for $600 though to replace our 2 S3 OLEDs.

I don't see a problem having to pay lifetime again in this case as it's not TiVo's fault either that there's been a technology change at least for some cable vendors. I was glad to see that they at least released the MPEG4 update for the HD model. I would think that most of the S3 OLED owners who have lifetime were $199 transfers from earlier models as they were not providing lifetime when the original S3 OLED came out and I don't believe they started selling it again until after the HD was released.

Scott


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Bighouse said:


> So, I contacted someone at TiVo via their chat tonight to ask about the "special offer" available to current S3 owners who will soon have units that are not capable of handling MPEG4. And, I'm disappointed. TiVo may have lost me as a future customer and I may just jump ship after having been with them as a loyal TiVo customer for over a decade and a half of time...am I wrong for feeling disappointed? I've bought every series release, except for the Bolt. And now I'm considering to take a vow to myself to never buy that unit or any other TiVo product because they seem to really dislike their customer base and don't ever do much to keep us happy.
> 
> The "special offer" is a refurbished Roamio 4 Tuner model for $24.99 with a monthly $14.99 service or a lifetime subscription for $349.99.
> 
> ...


A poster in a different thread, with a broken TivoHD (nonworking HDMI port after software upgrade, was offered a Premier4 for free (free shipping) paying only $200 for LS. Tivo would cancel the LS on his TivoHD.

You might see if that offer is available to you. Alternately see if you can get a 6 tuner unit.

Lifetime service refers to the unit, not the purchaser. The lifetime of the unit ends when the unit physically stops working (beyond repair) or technology changes to the extent the unit is past its lifetime (product is end of life). The unit as been out for almost 10 years. That is a lifetime, for a computer type product.

Class action lawsuit In what world can you even think tivo owes you more then you were offered?

Will your unit keep ls if you take the deal? A person looking for an OTA unit might buy it. Check ebay. You might get $150 (or even a little more)


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Bighouse said:


> So, I contacted someone at TiVo via their chat tonight to ask about the "special offer" available to current S3 owners who will soon have units that are not capable of handling MPEG4. And, I'm disappointed. TiVo may have lost me as a future customer and I may just jump ship after having been with them as a loyal TiVo customer for over a decade and a half of time...am I wrong for feeling disappointed? I've bought every series release, except for the Bolt. And now I'm considering to take a vow to myself to never buy that unit or any other TiVo product because they seem to really dislike their customer base and don't ever do much to keep us happy.
> 
> The "special offer" is a refurbished Roamio 4 Tuner model for $24.99 with a monthly $14.99 service or a lifetime subscription for $349.99.
> 
> ...


Lots of luck

TiVo gave you the services available as per the specs when you purchased the unit.

The fact that they update older units when possible is good customer service they are not obligated to do.

Furthermore, government depreciation tables show the "lifetime" of consumer electronics like this at 7 years, which means you got your use out of it.

Giant fail. Good luck finding a lawyer who will take it on for you.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> TiVo gave you the services available as per the specs when you purchased the unit.


Tivo essentially turned off (in the U.S. version) the capability of their software to continue to record all Cable channels, in order to create more demand for a new model. That would have been the argument with the series3 HD, if it came to it, which it won't.

The original series 3 would have be a tougher argument.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Wil said:


> Tivo essentially turned off (in the U.S. version) the capability of their software to continue to record all Cable channels, in order to create more demand for a new model. That would have been the argument with the series3 HD, if it came to it, which it won't.
> 
> The original series 3 would have be a tougher argument.


Again, 7 years is key in court cases on so many levels.

That metric is past...as the Series 3 And TiVo HD were last built in 2008 (notice how nicely that fits in using 7 years).


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Bighouse said:


> Makes me wonder if there really needs to be a class action lawsuit over this...





Wil said:


> I'd certainly join a class action suit and I think it would win. I'd love to get a check in the mail for 3 cents in about 5 years! Sign me up.
> 
> The suit would focus on what "lifetime" meant at the time of the contract. How much upfront was that lifetime meant artificially imposed obsolescence? So, the judge will ask, how hard would it be for Tivo to provide mpeg4 capability to the s3? "Impossible" Tivo would say. Our side would say, and prove, "the capability is there, pretty much just a question of throwing a software switch." (true of the HD and only a minor exaggeration in the case of the s3.) Find for the plaintiffs; one hundred and seventy-five million kajillion dollars. Of which we get the aforementioned three cents each.





Bighouse said:


> Yeah, I know how those work- but the possibility of losing one hundred and seventy-five million kajillion dollars might make TiVo thing harder about ways they can make a real offer to the users that seem fair to both parties.


Please refer to the arbitration clause in your TiVo customer agreement. I don't think a arbitrator who is paid for by TiVo, is going to award a customer kajillions of dollars. And I don't think the Supremes are going to restore (the currently defunct) Article IX of the Bill of Rights, at least not before the next president replaces Scalia.

Not that I don't agree with y'all that this is a crappy thing all around.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I thought it was acknowledged that the original S3 has a hardware limitation preventing it from being upgraded to MPEG-4. And the S3-HD can be upgraded.

So if they are rolling out the HD upgrade now, and your unit (an S3) is physically unable to be upgraded, what's the basis of your lawsuit?

BTW, if it's the "lifetime" clause, that's a non-starter. No court in this country will entertain a suit based on that. If it's some other reason, I'd like to hear it.



ej42137 said:


> And I don't think the Supremes are going to restore (the currently defunct) Article IX of the Bill of Rights,


Are you referring to the Ninth Amendment? It's not called Article IX.

The constitution does have articles, but the amendments (including the original 10 Bill of Rights) are simply called amendments.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

astrohip said:


> I thought it was acknowledged that the original S3 has a hardware limitation preventing it from being upgraded to MPEG-4. And the S3-HD can be upgraded


Where is this acknowledgement? This could possibly be important news.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I thought it was acknowledged that the original S3 has a hardware limitation preventing it from being upgraded to MPEG-4.


Dunno where you got that. Although the "S3" (648) hardware differs from that of the "HD" (652/658), they both are capable of playing back H.264 video, in the form of pushed or streamed MP4s. Playing back QAM-delivered H.264 transport streams shouldn't require anything more, hardware-wise.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Wil said:


> Tivo essentially turned off (in the U.S. version) the capability of their software to continue to record all Cable channels, in order to create more demand for a new model.


What the heck are you talking about? It's the CABLE companies that changed to MPEG 4..


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Wil said:


> Tivo HDs were capable of receiving and playing back mpeg4 just fine pre-11.0n. That capability was software-switched off, in the U.S.


Where any cable systems encoding any channels h.264 when the TivoHD was designed? The ability to record such stations wasn't software switched off. It was never turned on in the first place, prior to 11.0n


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> Dunno where you got that. Although the "S3" (648) hardware differs from that of the "HD" (652/658), they both are capable of playing back H.264 video, in the form of pushed or streamed MP4s. Playing back QAM-delivered H.264 transport streams shouldn't require anything more, hardware-wise.


I'm either wrong or confused (or both). I remember hearing that the reason the S3 wasn't getting the same treatment as the HD was some difference in the hardware.

/nevermind/


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I'm either wrong or confused (or both). I remember hearing that the reason the S3 wasn't getting the same treatment as the HD was some difference in the hardware.


That's a subtly different point. It can be simultaneously true that the S3 _is_ capable of being upgraded to MPEG-4 support, and yet, is not getting the same treatment because of a difference in hardware. Meaning: They wrote the necessary code for the HD. They _could_ also write it for the S3, _but_ it would require additional development (and more importantly, support) effort beyond what they've already put into the HD. A very small effort, probably, but non-zero.

This is almost certainly the true situation. It's not a technical decision, but a business one.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

astrohip said:


> I thought it was acknowledged that the original S3 has a hardware limitation preventing it from being upgraded to MPEG-4. And the S3-HD can be upgraded.
> 
> So if they are rolling out the HD upgrade now, and your unit (an S3) is physically unable to be upgraded, what's the basis of your lawsuit?
> 
> ...


The ninth article of the final twelve articles of the Bill of Rights became the seventh amendment after successful ratification. You are correct, I should have used the more common and more precise term "seventh amendment".

I still don't expect to see it revived in that I don't see our right to a jury trial for matters involving $20 or more to be restored any time soon.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

ej42137 said:


> Please refer to the arbitration clause in your TiVo customer agreement. I don't think a arbitrator who is paid for by TiVo, is going to award a customer kajillions of dollars. And I don't think the Supremes are going to restore (the currently defunct) Article IX of the Bill of Rights, at least not before the next president replaces Scalia.
> 
> Not that I don't agree with y'all that this is a crappy thing all around.


What relevant power has the feral government usurped?


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## pL86 (Oct 11, 2009)

tvmaster2 said:


> had a chat with TiVo tech support today about this. they want people who DON'T live in Comcast areas to send in requests to be added to a list to have their HD's updated with 11.0n.
> I guess they're targeting Comcast first, and if enough people request it, then they'll start sending updates out in blankets - and the way they put it, if it gets approved, the people who sent in requests to be on the list will be updated first.
> I asked - and will believe it when I see it


This works - I contacted Tivo support on Feb 16 after reading your post, explained that my provider Verizon had already already moved a number of channels to MPEG4 and asked that the 11.0n update be pushed to my Tivo HD. Today, only three days after I contacted them, my Tivo received the 11.0n software and the MPEG4 channels are now visible. Thanks for letting us know.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> That's a subtly different point. It can be simultaneously true that the S3 _is_ capable of being upgraded to MPEG-4 support, and yet, is not getting the same treatment because of a difference in hardware. Meaning: They wrote the necessary code for the HD. They _could_ also write it for the S3, _but_ it would require additional development (and more importantly, support) effort beyond what they've already put into the HD. A very small effort, probably, but non-zero.
> 
> This is almost certainly the true situation. It's not a technical decision, but a business one.


As I understand it, the MPEG-4 software for the HD was written for the Australian TiVo HD variant, so TiVo could just pull the existing code into the American variant, with little effort. The code for the original S3 was never written. It _could _be written, but it would be a development effort TiVo chose not to do.


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