# (Another) MOCA Question



## khaygart (Sep 7, 2016)

We just bought a new house and decided to go with TWC and a Tivo Bolt/Mini setup using MoCA (supplied by the bolt). The house is a mess of old splitters and an amplifier next to the cable drop. The amplifier is needed unfortunately to get a passable cable signal in the bedroom.

We will be using MoCA adapters in the bedroom and downstairs office so we can use both a computer and the mini. We have a SB6141 modem.

The setup looks to be:
TWC Cable Drop --> One-Way Powered Amplifier-4-Way Splitter --> to 1,2,3
1-->Cable to Family Room (Bolt)
2-->Cable to Downstairs Office (hardwired Computer)
3-->Cable to multiple splitters to other bedrooms (Mini and hardwired Computer)

The question is: Where do I put the modem so that all my computers can talk to each other and so that each room has the ability to hook to a mini?

I think the fact that the amplifier is a one direction only is killing the MoCA. If I put the modem between the TWC Cable Drop and the Amplifier, I don't think the MoCA signal can cross backwards across the amp. MoCA also wouldn't be able to pass from the Downstairs Office through the Amp to the Bedroom?

If I put a splitter after the TWC cable drop and ran one leg to the modem and the other to the Amp, I'd have the same problem?

Would an Amp with a cable internet pass-through work, or what about diplexers around the amp?

Help!


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

khaygart said:


> We just bought a new house and decided to go with TWC and a Tivo Bolt/Mini setup using MoCA (supplied by the bolt). The house is a mess of old splitters and an amplifier next to the cable drop. The amplifier is needed unfortunately to get a passable cable signal in the bedroom.
> 
> We will be using MoCA adapters in the bedroom and downstairs office so we can use both a computer and the mini. We have a SB6141 modem.
> 
> ...


Hi,
What is the make and model number of that amplifier? Some amps are MoCA friendly, older amps tend not to be. 
Have you read anything about a MoCA POE filter? TWC uses a Tuning Adapter for cable card devices, so, you are likely to need 2 filters. One will go on a splitter leg feeding the TA and the other leg will go to the Bolt. 
the other filter should go on the input of the first splitter/amp to enter your home.
If you require an amp to get adequate picture quality, there are MoCA friendly amps which have a filter builtin and others without the builtin filter.
Multiple "cascaded" splitters are often the source of both poor picture quality and MoCA problems. Some MoCA rated splitters from Verizon and Holland seem to perform the best on MoCA, but the usual recommendation is to try with what you have, and upgrade if problems are evident.
The cable modem will likely work fine wherever you decide to install it. The installer should have the modem working properly before he leaves, but try to do a hardwired speed test before he leaves, you should get pretty much whatever speed tier you ordered, but TWC will likely only provision the 6141 up to 100Mbps download. To use the Bolt to "create a MoCA network", you will also need to get an Ethernet cable to it from your router.
If you need additional MoCA adapters, consider Amazon as they are having a sale on their MoCA 2.0 units right now.
A sketch or diagram of your coax wiring would help if you can provide one.


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## kgus (Mar 14, 2016)

Amps don't work with TiVo My Boss and I talked to a Rep about it before and he said don't use them just take it out and you'll be fine. Moca is a Nightmare with TiVo because if the cable wires are old they won't work


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## khaygart (Sep 7, 2016)

The amplifier is an Antronix FRA8-0400.

Here is the setup.



http://imgur.com/m7GcQ


Edit - the tuning adapter is connected to the Tivo Bolt via a USB. The modem is connected to the router and then the Tivo Bolt via Ethernet.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

It looks like the bedrooms that needed the amp are getting Minis. The Mini doesn't need a cable signal and this might render the issue moot. The amp could be replaced with a plain splitter in that case.

(And place a POE filter on the input side of that splitter so moca can't escape the home.)


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## khaygart (Sep 7, 2016)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> It looks like the bedrooms that needed the amp are getting Minis. The Mini doesn't need a cable signal and this might render the issue moot. The amp could be replaced with a plain splitter in that case.
> 
> (And place a POE filter on the input side of that splitter so moca can't escape the home.)


That's a good point ... I didn't think that the Mini's don't actually need a cable signal.


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

khaygart said:


> The amplifier is an Antronix FRA8-0400.
> 
> Here is the setup.
> 
> ...


Puzzled why someone would install an 8 way amp when only 2 ports are being used, but I would take Big Jim's advice and try simply replacing it with a 2 way plus a filter on the input. I believe you will need a second filter for feeding your TA also.
If you discover that your TV signals going to the Bolt are low or pixelated and/ or you have trouble with your internet/cable modem, you may have to try and get TWC out to see if they can clean up / boost your signal a bit. If all else fails, you may be able to use a single in and out bi-directional amp to feed that first splitter and it will likely get the job done.
If I understand your diagram, that 4 way that feeds the cable modem should have an open port, if so, you might try an unbalanced 3 way in it's place and use the lower 3.5dB port to feed the cable modem if that is problematic.
EDIT: Antronix shows 3 different models under that same description, but none of them mention MoCA compatibility, so unfortunately nothing is known for certain, as other models from that company will pass MoCA but don't mention it is their specs...so trial and error, but I still recommended getting rid of it for a simple 2 way splitter.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Jumping in to concur with most everything previously recommended, but with a couple twists to contemplate...

Full agreement:

Since the cable signal is only needed at the BOLT and cable modem, *replace the amplifier* with a MoCA-compatible splitter having only as many outputs as are needed -- which appears to be 2.

Install a "*PoE" MoCA filter* on the input to this main "drop" splitter.

You'll want to have a *2nd MoCA filter* installed on the input to your tuning adapter. Some people have reported getting away without one, but more people not. (see here for more info)

Generally, *right-size your splitters*; worst case, ensure that any unused coax ports are capped with a 75-ohm terminator.

Additional issues:

In Bedroom 2, it appears from your diagram that you had planned to connect the Mini's coax input from the RF/TV Out port of the MoCA adapter; however, this won't work as *MoCA signals are not passed through the RF/TV Out port of MoCA adapters*. For the Mini to connect to your coax/MoCA network, you'd need a (MoCA-compatible) splitter in front of the Mini and adapter so that each could be directly connected to your coax lines.

May want to *upgrade your WRT54G* wireless router.

The LAN ports of the WRT54G will limit the MoCA bridge to 100 Mbps maximum throughput;

Your WAN/Internet bandwidth may be restricted to 32 Mbps or less by the limited processing power of the WRT54G. (see here)


> From LAN to WAN - then NAT is the bottleneck, as it's handled by the CPU, you're looking at...
> - no better than 32Mbps when using alternative firmware Tomato
> - 21 to 30Mbps when using DD-WRT


Personally, I shelved my WRT54G many years ago, when my spec'd Internet speed surpassed the 25+Mbps maximum my model was capable of.

Wireless-G. 'nuff said. 


Bonus opportunities...

Regarding the TiVo Mini in Bedroom 2, rather than adding a coax splitter (and adding attenuation to your MoCA link), you could instead *connect the MoCA adapter to an Ethernet switch* (ideally Gigabit), and then connect the PC and the TiVo Mini to the switch.

Depending on your wants/needs, you could *relocate the cable modem and router to the Basement Office*, and use the Actiontec MoCA adapter to create your MoCA network.

Benefits:

Improves cable signal strength to the BOLT.

Using a MoCA adapter as the MoCA bridge reduces outages associated with reboots/restarts of the MoCA bridge, since a MoCA adapter typically requires far fewer reboots than a TiVo DVR.

As a corollary to this preference, I also like to connect my MoCA adapter and any Ethernet-connected TiVo devices through a standalone Gigabit Ethernet switch distinct from the switch built-in to your router. This ensures that my LAN networking, including TiVo Multi-Room Streaming (MRS) can continue uninterrupted during any router outages/reboots.

The BOLT, now connecting as a client to the MoCA network, can have its now otherwise-unused Ethernet port used to extend wired networking to other co-located Ethernet devices (either a single device or multiple devices by connecting the BOLT's Gigabit Ethernet port to a network switch).

Maximizes bonded MoCA 2.0 throughput to Ethernet LAN, where use of BOLT as the MoCA bridge would restrict MoCA 2.0 throughput to 400+ Mbps.

Leverage your coax/MoCA network, as needed, to link any additional wireless access points, to improve your wireless network coverage.


That's all I've got, or that I can think of, ATM.

edit: p.s. Added a diagram, to facilitate visualization of the above recommendations & optional tweaks.

.


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## khaygart (Sep 7, 2016)

krkaufman said:


> Full agreement:
> 
> Since the cable signal is only needed at the BOLT and cable modem, *replace the amplifier* with a MoCA-compatible splitter having only as many outputs as are needed -- which appears to be 2.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of the above. I didn't include the POE Filters on my diagram because I was lazy/knew I needed them anyway. I've had a hell of a time finding POE MoCA filters at a brick & mortar location around the Charlotte area. Only a few years ago I could have walked into a RadioShack and picked one up. Today, the guys selling cell phones just look at me like I'm crazy. I'll probably just order them online.



krkaufman said:


> Additional issues:
> 
> In Bedroom 2, it appears from your diagram that you had planned to connect the Mini's coax input from the RF/TV Out port of the MoCA adapter; however, this won't work as *MoCA signals are not passed through the RF/TV Out port of MoCA adapters*. For the Mini to connect to your coax/MoCA network, you'd need a (MoCA-compatible) splitter in front of the Mini and adapter so that each could be directly connected to your coax lines.


I haven't purchased the MoCA adapters yet, but I believe the "bonded" adapters have a passthrough for the MoCA (one MoCA inlet, one MoCA passthrough outlet, one Ethernet outlet.) My post was sort of feeling things out before I purchased the equipment.



krkaufman said:


> [*]May want to *upgrade your WRT54G* wireless router.
> 
> 
> The LAN ports of the WRT54G will limit the MoCA bridge to 100 Mbps maximum throughput;
> ...


It's on my "to do list". I can sneak/justify a purchase here and there by the wife, but I'd have a hard time justifying a large modem/router/adapter/etc. purchase. The main Tivo works, so unfortunately she doesn't care about the work needed to wire the rest of the house.



krkaufman said:


> Bonus opportunities...
> 
> Regarding the TiVo Mini in Bedroom 2, rather than adding a coax splitter (and adding attenuation to your MoCA link), you could instead *connect the MoCA adapter to an Ethernet switch* (ideally Gigabit), and then connect the PC and the TiVo Mini to the switch.
> 
> ...


Interesting suggestions, and thanks for the diagram. There are other issues with the wiring right now. For instance, the splitter that feeds bedroom 1 and 2 seems to be a very old one that only appears one way and not MoCA compatible (I've confirmed this with a long temporary coax run down the hallway). I'm going to need to get up under the floor through the utility room and swap it out. I also need to run either a coax or Ethernet (or preferably both) to the kitchen for a Mini. Right now it's a long temporary Ethernet, but I'll need to drill a hole through the subfloor. Luckily it's by the basement closet so I can just tap off the initial splitter.

Additionally, there's some strange connector between the basement closet and the family room. It looks like a plate secured to the floor to make things look neat. Cords come up from the basement->connector->house floor->connector->cord to family room. I'm not sure if there's a splitter in there or just a connector. I'm going to look into it further this weekend.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

khaygart said:


> I haven't purchased the MoCA adapters yet, but I believe the "bonded" adapters have a passthrough for the MoCA (one MoCA inlet, *one MoCA passthrough outlet*, one Ethernet outlet.)


That's specifically what I'm talking about; that 2nd port only passes TV frequencies, not MoCA. (Well, to be accurate, MoCA frequencies *may* pass, but at a severe cost, if at all.)


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## khaygart (Sep 7, 2016)

Thanks ... that's good info to have. I keep mistakenly thinking the Tivo Mini needs a cable signal, when it actually needs a MoCA.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

khaygart said:


> I keep mistakenly thinking the Tivo Mini needs a cable signal, when it actually needs a MoCA.


Well, just a networking connection of sufficient bandwidth and latency, broadly speaking, with wired Ethernet or MoCA being the only technologies officially supported by TiVo.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

khaygart said:


> There are other issues with the wiring right now. For instance, the splitter that feeds bedroom 1 and 2 seems to be a very old one that only appears one way and not MoCA compatible (I've confirmed this with a long temporary coax run down the hallway). I'm going to need to get up under the floor through the utility room and swap it out. I also need to run either a coax or Ethernet (or preferably both) to the kitchen for a Mini. Right now it's a long temporary Ethernet, but I'll need to drill a hole through the subfloor. Luckily it's by the basement closet so *I can just tap off the initial splitter*.


Upgrading coax cables and components to MoCA-compatible specs can only help, potentially allowing MoCA where it's currently blocked or just making it easier for MoCA signals to get through, enabling your MoCA network to run at a lower power level.

I'm mildly concerned about the suggested tap off the main splitter, as doing so would affect the cable signal strength hitting your BOLT and cable modem. If the line is only intended for MoCA, it would be ideal if the line could attach to your coax tree in such a way as to maintain maximum signal strength to the BOLT & modem.



khaygart said:


> Additionally, there's some strange connector between the basement closet and the family room. It looks like a plate secured to the floor to make things look neat. Cords come up from the basement->connector->house floor->connector->cord to family room. I'm not sure if there's a splitter in there or just a connector. I'm going to look into it further this weekend.


That does sound strange. I'd be interested in seeing a pic, if you have a smartphone that would make it easy.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

krkaufman said:


> That's specifically what I'm talking about; that 2nd port only passes TV frequencies, not MoCA. (Well, to be accurate, MoCA frequencies *may* pass, but at a severe cost, if at all.)


Nitpick: RF filters never block 100% of the signal, they merely add enough attenuation so that whatever leaks through may be too small to care about. The attenuation from MoCA filters can range from about 35dB to 70dB depending on the quality of the filter and on the specific frequency. Many of the MoCA filters from Amazon or Ebay are in the 40dB range, which means that 0.01% of the RF power leaks through. MoCA networks are supposed to work at full speed with as much as 51dB of attenuation, so if you connect two MoCA devices directly to the two sides of a 40dB MoCA filter, they still should be able to communicate at full speed. In practice, the splitters and coax in a home MoCA network typically add another 10dB to 20dB loss. However, if some unnamed federal agency wanted to spy on your MoCA network and could sneek in a connection to the coax feeding into your home, there is a good chance that they could monitor your MoCA network despite having a PoE filter in place.

But don't lose any sleep over that


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

snerd said:


> Nitpick: RF filters never block 100% of the signal, they merely add enough attenuation so that whatever leaks through may be too small to care about.


Heh, that *is* why I edited my previous post to mention that the RF/TV Out port of the tuning adapter didn't actually block all MoCA signals.

Your comment also underscores, I expect, why TiVo states a 70dB requirement for OTA antenna MoCA setups...


> IMPORTANT: If you are using a TiVo BOLT with MoCA and you have an antenna connect-ed to your home's coax network, you MUST also install a 70 dB POE filter. (link)


... though I *don't* understand why they're qualifying the requirement as being specific to the BOLT. It would seemingly be a requirement related to any MoCA setup where the MoCA signal could hit an OTA antenna.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> ...
> 
> ... though I *don't* understand why they're qualifying the requirement as being specific to the BOLT. It would seemingly be a requirement related to any MoCA setup where the MoCA signal could hit an OTA antenna.


The Bolt is the only TiVo that can do OTA that has MoCA built in.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> The Bolt is the only TiVo that can do OTA that has MoCA built in.


Understood, but the issue applies to any OTA antenna setup where MoCA is present on the OTA antenna coax. That the Roamios can't do anything with the MoCA signal doesn't change the risk on the antenna end of the line.


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## khaygart (Sep 7, 2016)

krkaufman said:


> .
> 
> edit: p.s. Added a diagram, to facilitate visualization of the above recommendations & optional tweaks.
> 
> .


I'm not sure if the having the wireless router in the Basement Office will give me the signal strength where it's needed (on the main floor). I think it'll have to be upstairs in the Family room. This is under the assumption that I won't have a WAP (with switch).

The router can be anywhere, and I can hardwire (through coax or Ethernet) anything between the Basement Closet and the Family Room. I also like the idea of using the adapter to create the MoCA bridge and not being reliant on the Bolt. However if I move the modem/router to the Family Room, I'd need a 3rd MoCA adapter (I in Family Room, 1 in Bedroom 2 and 1 in the Basement Office).

Any suggestions (diagram)?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> Understood, but the issue applies to any OTA antenna setup where MoCA is present on the OTA antenna coax. That the Roamios can't do anything with the MoCA signal doesn't change the risk on the antenna end of the line.


Went back and looked at the page you linked too and I see what you mean. Makes some sense in the section talking about using the Bolt to create the MoCA network but no sense in the section talking about using the TiVo MoCA bridge to create the MoCA network. But then the page also refers to a 2 tuner Roamio - which I assume is actually the 2 tuner Premiere. So pretty clear that TiVo didn't check the page very well.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

khaygart said:


> I'm not sure if the having the wireless router in the Basement Office will give me the signal strength where it's needed (on the main floor). I think it'll have to be upstairs in the Family room. This is under the assumption that I won't have a WAP (with switch).


I'm quite certain that having your only wireless access point in the basement would provide generally inferior coverage relative to having an access point on a higher floor; and that lone WAP being a WRT54G would only make matters worse. (That was one of the bullets I could have included in my earlier post, had I tried to balance the "Benefits" bullets list -- but I tried to imply it by putting the WAP up in the Family Room, hung off the BOLT.) A more powerful wireless router in the basement could likely provide superior coverage over the WRT54G -- though you'd still/always be better off with the WAP on the 1st floor.



khaygart said:


> The router can be anywhere, and I can hardwire (through coax or Ethernet) anything between the Basement Closet and the Family Room. I also like the idea of using the adapter to create the MoCA bridge and not being reliant on the Bolt. However if I move the modem/router to the Family Room, I'd need a 3rd MoCA adapter (I in Family Room, 1 in Bedroom 2 and 1 in the Basement Office).


I'm certainly leaving some out, but I see several alternatives ...

Go with the modem/router in the Basement Office, but upgrade the wireless router to one with sufficient wireless capability to overcome the deficits associated with being located in the basement. (Also netting you Gigabit Ethernet LAN ports on the router.)

Go with the modem/router in the Basement Office, keeping the WRT54G as your router*... but disabling its wireless antenna in favor of a newly-purchased WAP-only device (or router configured as WAP) hung off the Ethernet port of the MoCA-connected BOLT in the Family Room.

Both of the above, upgrading the wireless router in the basement *and* putting a WAP w/ matching wireless spec in the Family Room, off the BOLT, to maximize your wireless coverage and overall LAN bandwidth.

Go with the modem/router in the Basement Office, keeping the WRT54G as your router*... but disabling its wireless antenna in favor of using an Actiontec WCB6200Q bonded MoCA 2.0 Wireless Extender in Bedroom 2, rather than a simple MoCA adapter. (Assumes locating the WCB6200Q Wireless-AC WAP in Bedroom 2 would provide better wireless coverage than the WRT54G currently provides in the Family Room.)

Stick with your original plan of the WRT54G & modem in the Family Room, along with the BOLT, until such time as doing one of the above is considered needed, rather than simply "better" -- or your lottery luck renders financial limitations moot.

* NOTE: In the plans retaining the WRT54G as your router, if needed, you could optionally purchase a Gigabit network switch with sufficient number of ports to provide a Gigabit alternative to the WRT54G's built-in Fast Ethernet switch. The WRT54G would then only be an impediment to Internet speeds.​


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