# New Moxi HD DVR is out - will this be a true competitor for the Tivo HD?



## slowbiscuit

Looks like the Moxi HD DVR is available for sale at Amazon now. At $800, it appears to compare favorably in price with a new Tivo HD + 500GB drive + lifetime service. Comparing features published for the Moxi, the specs appear to be very similar except for the network features available on the Tivo, such as MRV and PC transfer abilities. Not to mention Netflix streaming... 
One plus might be that Moxi says that it has commercial skip. Looking at the screen shot it might just be a programmable skip time, but if it really does mark breaks (and works correctly most of the time) it's a great feature that Tivo will never have.

Guess we'll see how these compare once folks get their hands on them and publish reviews. I'm very glad to see someone else pushing Tivo to make a good product even better.


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## Mindflux

799 with a lifetime? I guess it's not too far off TiVo right now.


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## bkdtv

slowbiscuit said:


> One big plus is that the Moxi has commercial skip! Doesn't appear to be automatic, but if it works correctly most of the time it's a great feature that Tivo will never have.


Moxi doesn't have commercial advance. It has 30s "commercial" skip. TiVo has the exact same feature.


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## Jerry_K

Without MRV it would be useless to me. Does anyone know if it really works. Sort of like the Ronco cooker. Set it and forget it. That is the power of TiVo.


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## mohanman

I agree MRV is essential, as is being able to download shows on the computer to put into itunes or ipod/iphone etc.
Mo


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## Playloud

I used to have an old 80GB Moxi box.










The interface wasn't bad, though at the time I wish they could have included a grid guide (I no longer care about that).

The remote was the best I had seen (I think I like it more than the Tivo Glo Remote).

I did like how I could access any menu while still watching what was playing. This is something I miss on the Tivo HD (though it has gotten better).

Also, the Moxi would buffer more than 30 minutes. This was nice. If I came home, turned on the TV, and found myself in the last 5 minutes of an hour show that would like to have seen (usually on the History channel), I could record the whole show, because it was ALL in the buffer. I did this many times.

---

The Moxi box did have a couple of problems though.

1. It was LOUD. The fan could be heard from clear across the room. My Tivo HD is silent by comparison.

2. It wanted to reboot itself virtually EVERY night. I would be watching TV at about 2am, and it kept asking me if it could reboot for maintenance. My Tivo HD never asks me this. Every six months or so, it will reboot with an update, but I can live with that.

3. 80GB for an HD box! It didn't really affect me, as I didn't have an HDTV at the time, but that was some rather poor planning on their part. That was enough room for about 10 hours of HD before the HDD was completely full.

---

Well, clearly the last problem has been fixed. 500GB is a decent sized HDD for a DVR. If the new Moxi box even wanted a chance to replace my Tivo HD, it would have to fix the first two problems I mentioned (which it might have, but I don't know).

It would also need to have the equivalent of TivoToGo, as I like to archive my shows for future viewing. Multiroom viewing is not important to me, but I can see how it would be for others. If it wants to compete with Tivo, it needs to outperform Tivo. The interface is more modern compared to Tivo, though some prefer the Tivo anyway.

Personally, I can't wait to see the Tivo Series 4!


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## moyekj

This seems a little disturbing/misleading:


> Record all of your shows in 1080p so you get the same crystal clear picture quality as the broadcast.


I'm assuming these are options for analog encodings only.

Based on Moxi's history of promises without delivering I would be very skeptical to jump on this early.
Some important features to me that seem to be missing (using Tivo terminology):
* MRV,TTG,TTCB
* Undelete
* Video downloads and/or streaming
* OTA support

EDIT: Also there is no mention of SDV TA support


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## RonDawg

Playloud said:


> 500GB is a decent sized HDD for a DVR.


Not for $800, when for roughly the same money the TiVoHD/My DVR Expander/Lifetime combo offers 1/3 more capacity, added features like MRV/TTG, and the familiar TiVo interface.

And that's assuming you pay the full $399 for Lifetime; for those of us who are already TiVo subscribers, we of course can get Lifetime for $100 less. Does Moxi offer any multi service discount, particularly if you already own an older box? And for those of us whose budgets aren't quite that generous, we can opt for monthly and prepaid plans and pay much less up front, an option not available (for now anyway) on the Moxi unit.

If Moxi wants to compete with TiVo, it will have to drop its price significantly, probably below $500. When Sony tried to get in the DVR game, sans TiVo, with its HDD-DGG250 and 500 units, it didn't do very well, and that was at a time when TiVo didn't have its own HD-capable units to compete with.


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## justintime

I rented a 80GB Moxi from Charter before I bought my TiVo HD. I wanted to like it, but just couldn't. Aside from 80GB being too small:


There was a significant boost in SD channel quality on the TiVo vs the Moxi.
The thing was unreliable -- it constantly missed programs, and locked up a lot.
I just couldn't get used to the menu structure. It looks cool, but didn't function well.
WAF - The wife refused to use the Moxi. She would rather watch the S1 tivo on our 27" SD TV than watch the Moxi in HD on our 62".

The Moxi did have a decent forum topic on avsforums.com, and there was an employee that posted quite often (Moxiguy, IIRC).

Might be worth checking out that forum if you're interested. Me, I'm sticking with TiVo.


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## lew

At that price point I'd expect built in wireless and a 1T drive. Moxi said they reserve the right to charge extra for new features (MRV, TTG?). May not be a big deal but it looks like the Moxi doesn't have OTA tuners or a modem (broadband only).

Cable and satellite companies are offering "bundle" pricing. I'm not sure there is a market for one premium priced DVR (tivo) I'd be surprised to see Moxi take off, at least at the current price.


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## ciper

moyekj said:


> This seems a little disturbing/misleading:





> Record all of your shows in 1080p so you get the same crystal clear picture quality as the broadcast.


What if the show is broadcast in 720p?


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## Playloud

Yeah. That is dumb. "Recording" in 1080p takes up a lot more space than recording in 480i. Just record it in SD, and up-rez it when needed.


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## Dmon4u

A more direct Link to the Product:

http://moxi.com/moxi/discover_moxi_hd.jsp

Product Facts: http://moxi.com/support/MC4R/MoxiHDDVR_FAQ.pdf

Quick Start: http://moxi.com/support/MC4R/QuickStartGuide.pdf

User Guide: http://moxi.com/support/MC4R/MoxiHDDVR_userguide.pdf


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## mattack

Thanks.. wow..


> Q. What signal sources does the Moxi HD DVR support?
> A. The Moxi HD DVR supports digital cable. You will need one (1) Multi-Stream CableCARD to receive premium channels from your cable provider. To receive analog cable channels (if digital simulcast is unavailable), you can request an external analog tuner provided by Digeo at www.moxi.com (Shipping and handling charges apply).


It has no internal analog tuner(s). So I guess that means it also doesn't get analog OTA (for the next 2.5 months...)


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## MickeS

Competition is good!

But no OTA is a no-go for me, although if it can be used to get the local channels in HD without a CableCARD that would go a long way towards making up for that.

I too wonder about SDV, I would imagine that just like with TiVo that would be a big problem for many cable subscribers if it doesn't work with that.

I use my TiVo everyday to play downloaded content from my PC. I don't think any stand-alone DVR in today's market will be able to sell without this ability in some form - without that ability (and something like TiVoToGo), I see little to differentiate it from the cable companies offerings (barring a superior UI and recording logic of course).

The UI seems really nice-looking, way better than TiVoHD in appearance. For example, ever since the Series 3 was released there has been discussion about how TiVo is wasting real estate. Look at the "Now Playing" list on this Moxi screenshot:








I have no idea whether it works better than TiVo or not, but that screenshot presents a lot more info on one screen than what the equivalent "Now Playing" on a TiVo does. That TiVo STILL does not take advantage of HD and 16:9 in its menus is disappointing.

The price seems to be very reasonable for what you get.


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## sinanju

Playloud said:


> Yeah. That is dumb. "Recording" in 1080p takes up a lot more space than recording in 480i. Just record it in SD, and up-rez it when needed.


Not to mention that there isn't any broadcast 1080p. I'm going to guess that they mean they scale everything to 1080p.


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## bkdtv

The hardware itself does appear to be good.

Based on their published "tech specs," Moxi appears to be using a variant of Broadcom's next-generation BCM7400B, with about twice the processing power of the BCM7401 in the TivoHD.

They also appear to be loading their software from flash ROM.


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## bkdtv

As a follow-up to the above, I'm told this box will boot in a fraction of the time of the TiVo.


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## cramer

mattack said:


> It has no internal analog tuner(s).


The cable labs standards (and maybe the FCC) require that it have analog tuning capability in addition to digital tuning. The sticky part is whether or not it can *record* an analog broadcast. Many cable companies still broadcast emergency alerts on an analog channel. (ch. 125 in every TW area I've been.)


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## ZeoTiVo

the MOXI has some features that would make my TiVo HD perform in ways that would be better for me.
- clear QAM mapping
- record only in this time slot
are two I know of already. I would like to see MOXI do well and put TiVo in a mode of feeling those added features do help sales. 
I, sadly though, predict that instead MOXI will not do well in the direct to conusmer market at the 800$ price range. Hopefully TiVo can find some unused resources to add some of the better parts of MOXI into their Series 4 design and implementation.


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## TexasGrillChef

I say *NO*... It *WON"T* compete with TiVo.

*Why?*

Because *IT* won't *EVER *do as *MUCH* as the TiVo can do...

If your talking straight DVR to DVR comparison. Maybe. If you don't care about getting Netflix, Amazon, Rhapsody, MRV, TTG, TTCB, etc..... Then it won't ever do as much as a TiVo could or *WILL* be able to do.

Nuff said... The Moxi is a box for the "Joe Six Pack" and not the upscale TV watchers that MOST TiVo are.

TGC


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## gweempose

ZeoTiVo said:


> I would like to see MOXI do well and put TiVo in a mode of feeling those added features do help sales ...


Absolutely! Competition is never a bad thing for the consumer.


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## TexasGrillChef

bkdtv said:


> As a follow-up to the above, I'm told this box will boot in a fraction of the time of the TiVo.


Keep in mind that the TiVo does more as well. So it has more to "LOAD".

My Quad Core computer boots Windows 3.1 really really fast....

XP and Vista on the other hand boot really slow....

Hmmmm Anyone want to go back to Windows 3.1???? I don't think so..

The Moxi Box has some good things... a few things better than the TiVo. On the other hand. The TiVo still does MORE than the Moxi box ever will.

TGC


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## jebbbz

A quick scan of the Moxi documents tells me that an external analog tuner is available (FAQ) but they mention it only in relation to analog cable so I assume no OTA. 

There appears to be only a single live buffer and it is of variable size but never less than 30 minutes for SD and 10 minutes (!) for HD. 

It looks like external HDD capability is rather more flexible than TiVos. The selection of external compatible eSATA HDDs is greater and you may swap drives without losing recordings -- at least there is no warning of that. They do warn that new HDDs plugged in will be formatted but it looks to me like you can have a shelf full of external eSATA drives that you may swap in and out as you wish.


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## lew

gweempose said:


> Absolutely! Competition is never a bad thing for the consumer.


Tivo already competes with cable and satellite provided DVRs. I'm not sure there is a market for even one "premium" DVR, I'd be shocked if there is a market for two premium products. Competition isn't good if it results in both tivo and Moxi leaving the market. Moxi could fail, but attract enough tivo customers to drag it down with it.


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## jeepguy_1980

lew said:


> Tivo already competes with cable and satellite provided DVRs. I'm not sure there is a market for even one "premium" DVR, I'd be shocked if there is a market for two premium products. Competition isn't good if it results in both tivo and Moxi leaving the market. Moxi could fail, but attract enough tivo customers to drag it down with it.


I don't think it's that the market isn't there. I think it's that the price is too high for such a market. Considering the hardware you actually get with a TiVo, it's significantly over priced. You can pretty much build an HTPC for the price of a TiVo with lifetime. Granted, that HTPC wouldn't have a lifetime subscription, but it has more options for guide data. That's not to say that HTPC's have a huge market, b/c of price and complexity (for most people). But I think that a lot of people seriously considering a TiVo probably think an HTPC is a better buy for the money or that a cable companies DVR is a better deal.

I'm sure 90% of the TiVo's cost has to be in the firmware, b/c the hardware doesn't really justify the price. I know I could go rent a dual tuner HD box from my cable company and never return it and the bill would be less than buying a TiVo. Granted, the box would be flagged as stolen and not work anywhere.


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## bkdtv

jeepguy_1980 said:


> I'm sure 90% of the TiVo's cost has to be in the firmware, b/c the hardware doesn't really justify the price. I know I could go rent a dual tuner HD box from my cable company and never return it and the bill would be less than buying a TiVo.


I wouldn't be sure. Last I heard, Comcast's charge for a lost Motorola HDTV DVR was approximately $400.

Verizon FiOS charges you over $475 if you lose their Motorola HDTV DVR.


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## rainwater

My big concern would be whether Moxi will be around in a year or two. Based on what I have seen, I wouldn't count on it. Plus, I don't see how they are going to do much damage in the standalone market for a box that is $800 and seems to offer less features than a TiVo (which is already available in many retail locations).


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## moyekj

jeepguy_1980 said:


> I don't think it's that the market isn't there. I think it's that the price is too high for such a market. Considering the hardware you actually get with a TiVo, it's significantly over priced. You can pretty much build an HTPC for the price of a TiVo with lifetime. Granted, that HTPC wouldn't have a lifetime subscription, but it has more options for guide data. That's not to say that HTPC's have a huge market, b/c of price and complexity (for most people). But I think that a lot of people seriously considering a TiVo probably think an HTPC is a better buy for the money or that a cable companies DVR is a better deal.


 HTPC doesn't really count since most setups don't support encrypted QAM channels. If you do want encrypted QAM channels then you are restricted to HTPC systems that support CableCard which there are very few of them and they are very expensive compared to Tivo since you have to buy the whole system, not just the tuner that supports CableCards.


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## ciper

moyekj said:


> HTPC doesn't really count since most setups don't support encrypted QAM channels.


This is a bigger problem than many realize. Even the "standard" channels included in your expanded basic programming are often encrypted. Food HD, Discovery HD Theater, National Geographic HD, SciFi HD, ESPN HD, and HGTV HD and about 60 music stations are examples of encrypted channels on my last two cable providers!


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## mattack

cramer said:


> The cable labs standards (and maybe the FCC) require that it have analog tuning capability in addition to digital tuning. The sticky part is whether or not it can *record* an analog broadcast.


Then why would their own document say you need an external analog tuner?


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## ZeoTiVo

mattack said:


> Then why would their own document say you need an external analog tuner?


t seems the standards can be met simply by making an external analog tuner avaialable to those few who would want it.


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## Brainiac 5

ciper said:


> This is a bigger problem than many realize. Even the "standard" channels included in your expanded basic programming are often encrypted. Food HD, Discovery HD Theater, National Geographic HD, SciFi HD, ESPN HD, and HGTV HD and about 60 music stations are examples of encrypted channels on my last two cable providers!


Yes, where I am every single channel that's not a local broadcast channel, both SD and HD, is encrypted. Even though the analog simulcasts of the same channels are not scrambled.


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## jeepguy_1980

Brainiac 5 said:


> Yes, where I am every single channel that's not a local broadcast channel, both SD and HD, is encrypted. Even though the analog simulcasts of the same channels are not scrambled.


If they weren't encrypted, the people that have the very basic plan (under $15/month) would be able to tune them in as well.

So, the cable company has to either encrypt those channels, or eliminate their very basic service. Either way, people are going to complain.


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## Brainiac 5

jeepguy_1980 said:


> If they weren't encrypted, the people that have the very basic plan (under $15/month) would be able to tune them in as well.
> 
> So, the cable company has to either encrypt those channels, or eliminate their very basic service. Either way, people are going to complain.


Sort of. They used to use a different way to handle this, but encrypting the channels is cheaper and more flexible. As I mentioned, the analog simulcasts of these channels aren't scrambled - you can just plug the cable into the TV and get them (and I do, in some rooms of my house). What they do to stop you from getting those channels if you don't pay for them is to put a "trap" on your line, which filters out those channels before the cable comes into your house. The main drawback to that is that someone has to come to your neighborhood and physically install the trap, whereas encrypting the channels means they can do everything remotely.


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## jeepguy_1980

Brainiac 5 said:


> Sort of. They used to use a different way to handle this, but encrypting the channels is cheaper and more flexible. As I mentioned, the analog simulcasts of these channels aren't scrambled - you can just plug the cable into the TV and get them (and I do, in some rooms of my house). What they do to stop you from getting those channels if you don't pay for them is to put a "trap" on your line, which filters out those channels before the cable comes into your house. The main drawback to that is that someone has to come to your neighborhood and physically install the trap, whereas encrypting the channels means they can do everything remotely.


That and people illegally remove traps and they have to constantly be verified. But my original statement was made with the assumption that there were no analog channels at all.


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## fergie8

mohanman said:


> I agree MRV is essential, as is being able to download shows on the computer to put into itunes or ipod/iphone etc.
> Mo


No wish lists with Moxi either? Or is it in their specs but I just didn't read well enough?


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## slowbiscuit

ciper said:


> This is a bigger problem than many realize. Even the "standard" channels included in your expanded basic programming are often encrypted. Food HD, Discovery HD Theater, National Geographic HD, SciFi HD, ESPN HD, and HGTV HD and about 60 music stations are examples of encrypted channels on my last two cable providers!


This could be changing soon if you're on Comcast. As part of their digital migration, they are putting all of the former expanded basic SD channels in clear QAM. No mention from anyone yet if the HD versions are also in the clear, but I doubt it. Anyway, this would make a cheap HTPC QAM setup a competitive offering vs. Tivo or Moxi, assuming you can live with just having the locals in HD. I can't, I love them sports in HD too much.


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## fallingwater

A pretty EPG but one that only shows upcoming programs for the next three hours for one channel at a time. Awkward to navigate and limited in concept. TiVo's Live Guide isn't nearly as pretty but is far more useful. Click on the image next to Moxi Menu to see the EPG. 
http://moxi.com/moxi/experience_features.jsp
Moxi's dark and overproduced website made me uneasy from first view. 
http://moxi.com/moxi/discover_moxi_hd.jsp

Here's one new user's opinion:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5777302#post5777302

Both Moxi and TiVo are specialty products but TiVo has a good chance of becoming financially viable. IMHO, Moxi never will.


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## fallingwater

slowbiscuit said:


> This could be changing soon if you're on Comcast. As part of their digital migration, they are putting all of the former expanded basic SD channels in clear QAM.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=413301


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## MickeS

fallingwater said:


> Here's one new user's opinion:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5777302#post5777302


A post from 2005 about a different product doesn't count.


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## RetentionSquadIN

All I have to say is that this box comes nowhere close to a TiVo XL with Product Lifetime Service. An XL box with Product Lifetime blows away what this box has to offer as well. Also the ticker that is built in takes away from screen viewing area.


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## rocko

It also only supports Multistream (M) cards. Not a big deal for most but Verizon FIOS might not have them deployed to all markets. Not sure about other providers either.


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## ciper

slowbiscuit said:


> This could be changing soon if you're on Comcast. As part of their digital migration, they are putting all of the former expanded basic SD channels in clear QAM. No mention from anyone yet if the HD versions are also in the clear, but I doubt it. Anyway, this would make a cheap HTPC QAM setup a competitive offering vs. Tivo or Moxi, assuming you can live with just having the locals in HD. I can't, I love them sports in HD too much.


Interesting. I hope that they do put all the Extended basic channels in clear QAM (including the HD versions). Maybe then enough people will move to the MOXI or HTPC for Tivo to notice that clear QAM mapping is a good thing.


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## socalseries3

TexasGrillChef said:


> I say *NO*... It *WON"T* compete with TiVo.
> 
> *Why?*
> 
> Because *IT* won't *EVER *do as *MUCH* as the TiVo can do...
> 
> If your talking straight DVR to DVR comparison. Maybe. If you don't care about getting Netflix, Amazon, Rhapsody, MRV, TTG, TTCB, etc..... Then it won't ever do as much as a TiVo could or *WILL* be able to do.
> 
> Nuff said... The Moxi is a box for the "Joe Six Pack" and not the upscale TV watchers that MOST TiVo are.
> 
> TGC


Why would you think that? How would you have any idea about their future product roadmap? If they have a better, faster UI, WITHOUT all the ADs that now sully my Tivo, I would seriously consider it. Frankly, the TiVo interface looks "Joe Six Pack" today compared to the new box.

FWIW, I have NO association with them in any way. Just was impressed with the demo - as I was with TiVo many years ago.


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## fallingwater

MickeS said:


> A post from 2005 about a different product doesn't count.


It's true that the post is old and refers to the Moxi cable box EPG:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5779502#post5779502

But the new Moxi HD DVR appears to utilize the same style EPG so the poster's complaint remains valid:
http://moxi.com/moxi/discover_moxi_cable.jsp
http://moxi.com/moxi/discover_moxi_hd.jsp

Both links go to the current Moxi website:
http://moxi.com/moxi/home.jsp


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## fallingwater

socalseries3 said:


> Why would you think that? How would you have any idea about their future product roadmap? If they have a better, faster UI, WITHOUT all the ADs that now sully my Tivo, I would seriously consider it. Frankly, the TiVo interface looks "Joe Six Pack" today compared to the new box.
> 
> FWIW, I have NO association with them in any way. Just was impressed with the demo - as I was with TiVo many years ago.


IMHO, neither Moxi nor TiVo attract many Joe Six Packs. Cable and Echostar DVR's appeal primarily to Joe Six Pack.

Moxi targets Home Theater enthusiasts while TiVo appeals to viewers captivated by digital technology.

Think Hyundai (or Kia or Ford F150), Lexus (or Mercedez-Benz), and BMW (or Corvette). YMMV!


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## DeathRider

Brainiac 5 said:


> Sort of. They used to use a different way to handle this, but encrypting the channels is cheaper and more flexible. As I mentioned, the analog simulcasts of these channels aren't scrambled - you can just plug the cable into the TV and get them (and I do, in some rooms of my house). What they do to stop you from getting those channels if you don't pay for them is to put a "trap" on your line, which filters out those channels before the cable comes into your house. The main drawback to that is that someone has to come to your neighborhood and physically install the trap, whereas encrypting the channels means they can do everything remotely.


RCN in Ma just went Digital Only...there is no analog simulcast...you now need a box for every TV...but they don't encrypt many channels - just need a QAM tuner (and to figure out where the channels are - they won't match the guide)


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## Dmon4u

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2338485,00.asp

"Digeo's Moxi HD DVR, launched Thursday "

I thought they were available on Amazon for at least two weeks now ?


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## slowbiscuit

Been available for about a month, but I think it was a soft launch (no pub) on Amazon.


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## wm2008

moyekj said:


> HTPC doesn't really count since most setups don't support encrypted QAM channels. If you do want encrypted QAM channels then you are restricted to HTPC systems that support CableCard which there are very few of them and they are very expensive compared to Tivo since you have to buy the whole system, not just the tuner that supports CableCards.


There are more and more systems being released supporting cablecards. Tivo should be considering them a threat. I tested one for a number of months. BTW, I have no PC systems (W2K through Vista) which boot as slow as the THD. Since somebody made the comparisoon, I'll also comment that the comparison between a Tivo and a PC is not relevant. Tivo controls (unless you mod it) absolutely all content and changes - hw and sw - to their devices. No 3rd party changes or modification. That has an incredible impact and should allow for unparallel reliability, speed and performance in a closed system.


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## slowbiscuit

IMO, Tivo doesn't consider HTPCs a threat because Cablecard PCs are way overpriced and there are few vendors with very little advertising of them. Not to mention that most folks don't want to fool with a PC attached to a TV.
If I could roll my own CC HTPC, preferably on Linux, I would probably not need a Tivo HD. But I can't, so I do.

PC Mag article on Moxi DVR unveiling at CES. Not much new here, but at least it's out there.


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## ZeoTiVo

wm2008 said:


> T BTW, I have no PC systems (W2K through Vista) which boot as slow as the THD.


 set that PC up to start recording 2 live buffers off of tuners just as soon in the boot cycle as possible and see how fast the PC is then.

The point I am still emphasizing here is that comparing a TiVo to a PC is apples to oranges and always will be.


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## ZeoTiVo

slowbiscuit said:


> PC Mag article on Moxi DVR unveiling at CES. Not much new here, but at least it's out there.


gah, I stopped reading right at this point
"HDTV owners will no longer have to pay a monthly fee to get high-definition DVR capabilities: Digeo's Moxi HD DVR, launched Thursday at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES), costs $799 up front, with no subscription charges"

a reporter covering DVRs should know you could get a TiVo HD with lifetime for 699$ retail and first time buyer and have been able to do so for quite some time now. It should be embarrassing for any one writing an article on DVRs to either not know that and or not to wordsmith the sentence to have it reflect you actually know something about the types of DVRs available.


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## MickeS

Does it do SDV? The article mentions it doesn't do VOD, but that it is "being worked on". I would think SDV would be a higher priority (though they might be one and the same issue).


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## SugarBowl

It sounds like it would work with the tuning adapter. But they don't mention it by name.


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## wm2008

ZeoTiVo said:


> gah, I stopped reading right at this point
> "HDTV owners will no longer have to pay a monthly fee to get high-definition DVR capabilities: Digeo's Moxi HD DVR, launched Thursday at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES), costs $799 up front, with no subscription charges"
> 
> a reporter covering DVRs should know you could get a TiVo HD with lifetime for 699$ retail and first time buyer and have been able to do so for quite some time now. It should be embarrassing for any one writing an article on DVRs to either not know that and or not to wordsmith the sentence to have it reflect you actually know something about the types of DVRs available.


The article is accurate. No subscription is no subscription. If you pay for lifetime service you're still paying for a subscription.


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## wm2008

slowbiscuit said:


> IMO, Tivo doesn't consider HTPCs a threat because Cablecard PCs are way overpriced and there are few vendors with very little advertising of them. Not to mention that most folks don't want to fool with a PC attached to a TV.
> If I could roll my own CC HTPC, preferably on Linux, I would probably not need a Tivo HD. But I can't, so I do.
> 
> PC Mag article on Moxi DVR unveiling at CES. Not much new here, but at least it's out there.


Most folks also don't want to fool with attenuators, diplexors or replacing hard drives. But times are changing. Previously most folks didn't want to have ethernet to their DVRs. Now it's common. It wasn't that long ago that you couldn't watch a DVD on a PC. Cablecard PCs are not nearly as "overpriced" as either Tivos or this newly advertised Moxi. Consider that the Tivos and the Moxi are simply content devices - the cablecard equipped PCs do far far more.

Bottom line is that those who would ignore those devices really aren't seeing what may be coming down the line.


----------



## bkdtv

wm2008 said:


> Consider that the Tivos and the Moxi are simply content devices - the cablecard equipped PCs do far far more.
> 
> Bottom line is that those who would ignore those devices really aren't seeing what may be coming down the line.


Note the same issues that affect the TiVo also affect current PC CableCard devices to a greater degree.

If you thought signal issues could be troublesome with a TivoHD on FiOS, then you should see current CableCard PC tuners. If you follow AVS, you'll see that a number of FiOS users have switched from CableCard PCs to the TivoHD.


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## ZeoTiVo

wm2008 said:


> The article is accurate. No subscription is no subscription. If you pay for lifetime service you're still paying for a subscription.


oh so this line is completely accurate and well written then?
"HDTV owners will no longer have to pay a monthly fee to get high-definition DVR capabilities"


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## wm2008

bkdtv said:


> Note the same issues that affect the TiVo also affect current PC CableCard devices to a greater degree.
> 
> If you thought signal issues could be troublesome with a TivoHD on FiOS, then you should see current CableCard PC tuners. If you follow AVS, you'll see that a number of FiOS users have switched from CableCard PCs to the TivoHD.


I'm not saying that the the MPCs equipped with cablecards don't have their own issues. I ran one for a number of months as a test. Just that assumptions about what people do or do not want that seem to only favor Tivo may be shortsighted. My comment was NOT an insult to Tivos in any way. It was an illustration that times are changing and people want different things than they used to - including "joe six pack" who not long ago didn't even want a DVR to begin with.


----------



## wm2008

ZeoTiVo said:


> oh so this line is completely accurate and well written then?
> "HDTV owners will no longer have to pay a monthly fee to get high-definition DVR capabilities"


The part I'd take exception to is that there is still a monthly fee for the cablecards. Or actually, I guess not if you use it as OTA. Maybe they could have gone into a long description of what the fees really are, such as how the cablecos have no initial cost, less features, a monthly fee and no maintenance, how Tivo has an upfront cost, has monthly fees unless you buy lifetime (for that unit only) and you're responsible for your own maintenance after warranty (and sometimes within).

But the entire statement was "HDTV owners will no longer have to pay a monthly fee to get high-definition DVR capabilities: Digeo's Moxi HD DVR, launched Thursday at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES), costs $799 up front, with no subscription charges"

The first part could be better written but I don't think it was awful. The second is accurate except missing CC fees. The intent is OK.


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## ZeoTiVo

wm2008 said:


> Cablecard PCs are not nearly as "overpriced" as either Tivos or this newly advertised Moxi.


umm, just buying a *single tuner* card that can deal with cable card is still like 300$ for one tuner*. And you still have to buy an OEM PC certified by cable labs and then be very careful what you put on that PC and that all drivers are signed drivers, etc.. You can love on HTPC all you want cause they do indeed do cool things, but lets keep it all within the world of facts.

from engadget


> Our friend Chris Lanier discovered today that Cannon PC started selling both the external and internal versions of the ATI TV Wonder DCT separately, so that finally those with CableCARD ready Vista Media Center PCs -- you know the OEM only ones -- can either add additional tuner, or opt to swap out the external variety for the internal type the takes less space, all for about $300 each.


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## ZeoTiVo

wm2008 said:


> The first part could be better written but I don't think it was awful. The second is accurate except missing CC fees. The intent is OK.


no it is not - the writer acts as if Moxi was the first to ever do this for dual tuner HD. That is not the case and any after sale fees to cable companies would be the same for either Tivo or Moxi. It was not the writers intention to do a cost/benefit writeup. It clearly was the writers intention to make teh Moxi sound as good as the writer could. he blew that for me and anyone else who knows.

I think Moxi is a good company and I am glad to see another company enter the space - they can be a real contender to TiVo. Moxi needs to get a better level of hack writers for their PR though


----------



## wm2008

ZeoTiVo said:


> umm, just buying a *single tuner* card that can deal with cable card is still like 300$ for one tuner*. And you still have to buy an OEM PC certified by cable labs and then be very careful what you put on that PC and that all drivers are signed drivers, etc.. You can love on HTPC all you want cause they do indeed do cool things, but lets keep it all within the world of facts.
> 
> from engadget


It is the world of facts - don't know why the defensiveness. In the world of vista, like it or not signed drivers are important for more than just cablecards, and not that big of a deal. You certainly do need to be careful with the machine - no doubt. But the cost when considering all the other things the machine can easily do that the Tivo cannot should also be considered when making the statement that they are "overpriced". I know it's an opinion, but frankly I can't see how one can consider the HTPC "overpriced" and the Tivo not. There is a cost associated with both, and they each have advantages and disadvantages. At this point in time, the Tivo is certainly more mature.


----------



## wm2008

ZeoTiVo said:


> no it is not - the writer acts as if Moxi was the first to ever do this for dual tuner HD. That is not the case and any after sale fees to cable companies would be the same for either Tivo or Moxi. It was not the writers intention to do a cost/benefit writeup. It clearly was the writers intention to make teh Moxi sound as good as the writer could. he blew that for me and anyone else who knows.
> 
> I think Moxi is a good company and I am glad to see another company enter the space - they can be a real contender to TiVo. Moxi needs to get a better level of hack writers for their PR though


You have your opinion. No problem. The basis is that the Moxi has "no" charge (at any time) for the UI and DVR functionality. There is no "subscription" fee (except for the cablecards). There IS a subscription fee for the Tivo. You may pay lifetime (it was not always available) but it's still a "subscription fee". The "total cost" of the different units may turn out to be the same, but technically, the Moxi has no DVR subscription fee and the Tivo does.

JMHO - no big deal.


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## ZeoTiVo

wm2008 said:


> It is the world of facts - don't know why the defensiveness. In the world of vista, like it or not signed drivers are important for more than just cablecards, and not that big of a deal. You certainly do need to be careful with the machine - no doubt. But the cost when considering all the other things the machine can easily do that the Tivo cannot should also be considered when making the statement that they are "overpriced". I know it's an opinion, but frankly I can't see how one can consider the HTPC "overpriced" and the Tivo not. There is a cost associated with both, and they each have advantages and disadvantages. At this point in time, the Tivo is certainly more mature.


I can buy a full working TiVo for 650$ and then 100$ for a 1TB drive or I can spend that just to get two tuner cards and nothing else. I then have a TiVo appliance and can get a 500$ PC to do all the other stuff and not worry about messing up the cable card DVR part.

I am not being defensive just pointing out that your use of the word 'overpriced' when comparing a TiVo to a Cable Card enabled OEM HTPC is about as accurate as saying "Now with MOXI you finally no longer have to pay monthly."

Now had you siad that for OTA TiVo is overpriced compared to the DISH OTA DVR that just came out for 200$, Then you would get no rebuttal from me.


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## MickeS

ZeoTiVo said:


> Now had you siad that for OTA TiVo is overpriced compared to the DISH OTA DVR that just came out for 200$, Then you would get no rebuttal from me.


Really? No rebuttal even though it's $250?


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## jamesweber

I have been a long time TiVo fan (about 5 years now) and MRV is my number one priority, but I must say the Moxi box certainly looks like a contender. It certainly looks like they spent the time and money to develope a good alternative to a TiVo and certainly a cable box. It's not perfect, but rarely anything is. It has a beautiful UI and the price is in line. Where as I have no intention of leaving TiVo at this time I do hope that it lights a fire under TiVo to start making some improvements to their product line. 
ie. 
Interface is outdated (better than most but still needs to be better)
Interface is to slow
Connections are way to slow slow (amazon, pc, swivel, netflix, etc)
Wireless MRV is to slow (been made better, but 1MB a sec is to slow in todays world) 1 hour to transfer a 1 hour HD show. 
If their new TiVo Search is as slow as swivel search it's really gonna be a downer since that will be the only way to search for shows to record.
QAM mapping is needed so that people whom get free rebroadcasted channels can have guide info.
The fact that I can't lock in recordings so that they can not be changed by another person in the house without locking them out completely through kidzone or parental controls. (the simple "it's recording do you want to change the channel" warning is not enough). It would be nice if you had to enter a code to be able to change or cancel a recording. (it's a simple little thing to do to have the ability to toggle on/off recording lock out controls)
Most CC can tune in 4 channels and newer hard drives can record up to 12 streams so why haven't we seen a 4 tunner box yet? It would certainly be nice to have a TiVo server in the house rather than a bunch of individuals even if you need to purchase a small TiVo (sling like) player for your other sets. there is certainly plenty of ways to make money off of a 4 or 6 tunner box.

And I am sure if I sit here a few more minutes I could come up with a dozen more things.

I love my TiVo's, When TiVo came out it was a amazing, but in todays standards it is mearly just better then the alternative. If TiVo doesn't start improving performance and come up with new and improved features soon, I believe they will eventually fall behind the competitors that have and will eventually enter the marketplace.

Again I am like most of you out there and I am an avid TiVO fanatic, but there is always room for improvement.


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## slowbiscuit

wm2008 said:


> It is the world of facts - don't know why the defensiveness. In the world of vista, like it or not signed drivers are important for more than just cablecards, and not that big of a deal. You certainly do need to be careful with the machine - no doubt. But the cost when considering all the other things the machine can easily do that the Tivo cannot should also be considered when making the statement that they are "overpriced". I know it's an opinion, but frankly I can't see how one can consider the HTPC "overpriced" and the Tivo not. There is a cost associated with both, and they each have advantages and disadvantages. At this point in time, the Tivo is certainly more mature.


The cost of the tuners alone and the fact that you can't BYO make them overpriced. That's what I meant by the statement. I agree that the HTPC can do much more, but you're stuck with a limited supply of PC builds and Vista with all the endless patching and fiddling that can go with it.
In the end there's been no true competition for either until this Moxi came out, and I'm hoping that they end up having to lower the price and take the gloves off because I think $800 is too high. 
Of course, no one seems to have one yet (can't find any reviews on the net), so we'll see how well it actually works.


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## wm2008

slowbiscuit said:


> The cost of the tuners alone and the fact that you can't BYO make them overpriced. That's what I meant by the statement. I agree that the HTPC can do much more, but you're stuck with a limited supply of PC builds and Vista with all the endless patching and fiddling that can go with it.
> In the end there's been no true competition for either until this Moxi came out, and I'm hoping that they end up having to lower the price and take the gloves off because I think $800 is too high.
> Of course, no one seems to have one yet (can't find any reviews on the net), so we'll see how well it actually works.


I agree that the tuner cost is high, but my opinion is that the Tivo has far less functions at a similar price point. OTOH, it is more mature and hopefully more stable with a more narrowly focused optimization for DVR specific purposes. HTPC can do far more, though probably not the DVR functions as well. My issue with Tivo pricing and why I call it "overpriced" is that the actual hardware itself really isn't terribly complex or high end. But the price historically isn't cheap. You're paying for software. However, then you need to keep paying for software on a monthly basis unless you buy lifetime support for that unit. It's a strange model.

It will be very interesting to see how things progress. I honestly see a much brighter future for "HTPC-like" devices, which are probably better positioned for integration with other non-standard services, but it's honestly just a guess.


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## wm2008

ZeoTiVo said:


> I can buy a full working TiVo for 650$ and then 100$ for a 1TB drive or I can spend that just to get two tuner cards and nothing else. I then have a TiVo appliance and can get a 500$ PC to do all the other stuff and not worry about messing up the cable card DVR part.
> 
> I am not being defensive just pointing out that your use of the word 'overpriced' when comparing a TiVo to a Cable Card enabled OEM HTPC is about as accurate as saying "Now with MOXI you finally no longer have to pay monthly."
> 
> Now had you siad that for OTA TiVo is overpriced compared to the DISH OTA DVR that just came out for 200$, Then you would get no rebuttal from me.


See my last response. I simply don't agree. The Tivo hardware isn't all that high end or expensive to manufacture. While the device has some great features (when they work) it's still pretty narrowly focused. Processor speed is pretty slow, memory is pretty limited, and IO is pretty slow. If you actually compared it point for point, I think it's overpriced but a lack of competition keeps pricing high. HTPC is also overpriced - for similar reasons. Like I said, I tested HTPC with cablecards for some number of months and you don't see me using it permanently, but it's way to early to count it out.


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## lew

wm2008 said:


> .... I think it's overpriced but a lack of competition keeps pricing high. HTPC is also overpriced - for similar reasons. Like I said, I tested HTPC with cablecards for some number of months and you don't see me using it permanently, but it's way to early to count it out.


I think we underestimate the cost of support. The cost of converting Tribune guide data to tivo's format. I wonder if at least some of the OTA lineups may service a limited number customers. I think we have to consider how tivo has to allocate their fixed costs over the number of units sold. Cableco don't have any incremental cost for guide data. Cablecos can spread their fixed costs over an increasing user base.


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## killzone

wm2008 said:


> See my last response. I simply don't agree. The Tivo hardware isn't all that high end or expensive to manufacture. While the device has some great features (when they work) it's still pretty narrowly focused. Processor speed is pretty slow, memory is pretty limited, and IO is pretty slow. If you actually compared it point for point, I think it's overpriced but a lack of competition keeps pricing high. HTPC is also overpriced - for similar reasons. Like I said, I tested HTPC with cablecards for some number of months and you don't see me using it permanently, but it's way to early to count it out.


I agree. For the price they are charging, they shouldn't have skimpped on the processor and memory.

Soon enough they will have some competition from the new Cablevision RDVR where worrying about upgrading your hard drive or how many tuners you have will be a thing of the past. For those who arent familiar with this, you can record as many channels at once as you like and as keep as many shows as you like. They may impose some sort of storage restriction, but since the data resides on their servers, if 100+ people record the same show, they only need to store it once. You never need to worry about a drive crashing and losing all your shows. How good and fast the interface is remains to be seen.

Realistically they need to come out with a Tivo server that has 6-8 tuners and 2T of storage.


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## killzone

lew said:


> I think we underestimate the cost of support. The cost of converting Tribune guide data to tivo's format. I wonder if at least some of the OTA lineups may service a limited number customers. I think we have to consider how tivo has to allocate their fixed costs over the number of units sold. Cableco don't have any incremental cost for guide data. Cablecos can spread their fixed costs over an increasing user base.


Understandable, but they are competing with cable and satellite DVRs. It may cost Tivo more to maintain these lists and such, but if they pass this cost on to the users, they start to price themselves out of the market. For a Dish DVR i believe they charge $7 a month and you don't have to buy the DVR. In some packages you don't even have to pay for the DVRs. For Cablevision it's $9 and again you don't have to buy the DVR.

Unless they provide functionality that is way beyond the other offerings, they need to be cost competitive. Currently the Tivo interface is just too slow. If they want to promote themselves as a premium DVR worthy of the extra costs, then this is something that has to be fixed.


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## bkdtv

killzone said:


> I agree. For the price they are charging, they shouldn't have skimpped on the processor and memory.


The TivoHD uses the same BCM7401 DVR CPU found in the DirecTV HR21/HR22/HR23, Dish Network ViP612, and Motorola DCX64xx and QIP72xx DVRs.

About six months before the TivoHD became available in July of 2007, Broadcom announced a new [more expensive] DVR CPU (BCM7400) with about twice the performance of the BCM7401. Realistically though, I don't think TiVo had access to that solution during the design phase. The new Moxi is the first DVR based upon this CPU (or a variant).

Broadcom has now introduced several DVR CPUs with 2.0-3.3x the performance of the BCM7401 in the TivoHD. It's probably reasonable to expect a next-generation TiVo to use one of these.



killzone said:


> Soon enough they will have some competition from the new Cablevision RDVR where worrying about upgrading your hard drive or how many tuners you have will be a thing of the past.


I thought that solution was still in limbo? TV networks and movie studios claim that the service violates their copyrights. They filed suit and a court ruled that the service was a violation of copyright laws. Cablevision filed an appeal with the U.S. District Court and won. The networks appealed to the Supreme Court and they referred the case today to the Department of Justice.

One of the compromises being looked at by Cablevision is the inability to skip commercials on remote DVR content. Content could be played, paused, or rewound, but not fast forwarded.


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## lew

According to an updated thread the Supreme Court declined to hear the appeal.

edited to add the following paragraphs are nothing more then speculation.

The networks may require some concession from Cablevision as a condition for continuing giving Cablevision access to a direct feed, and maybe even for them to continue to allow re-transmission.

I wouldn't be shocked to see some time limit on how long a show could be stored. Large RDVR capacity may result in entire seasons being stored leading to reduced DVD sales.



bkdtv said:


> I thought that solution was still in limbo? TV networks and movie studios claim that the service violates their copyrights. They filed suit and a court ruled that the service was a violation of copyright laws. Cablevision filed an appeal with the U.S. District Court and won. The networks appealed to the Supreme Court and they referred the case today to the Department of Justice.
> 
> One of the compromises being looked at by Cablevision is the inability to skip commercials on remote DVR content. Content could be played, paused, or rewound, but not fast forwarded.


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## Playloud

lew said:


> According to an updated thread the Supreme Court declined to hear the appeal.
> 
> edited to add the following paragraphs are nothing more then speculation.
> 
> The networks may require some concession from Cablevision as a condition for continuing giving Cablevision access to a direct feed, and maybe even for them to continue to allow re-transmission.
> 
> I wouldn't be shocked to see some time limit on how long a show could be stored. Large RDVR capacity may result in entire seasons being stored leading to reduced DVD sales.


DVDs of show season should include many extras that are not available otherwise.


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## ZeoTiVo

wm2008 said:


> See my last response. I simply don't agree. The Tivo hardware isn't all that high end or expensive to manufacture.


do you have some actual data on what it costs to manufacture or is that another speculation you state as if it was fact?
Most TiVo HD DVRs hardware can be had for 250$ or less, not really sure where you are getting it costs so much compared to an HTPC hardware. Sure and HTPC is a PC and thus by definition multi-purpose but TiVo has no exclusive clause prohibiting someone from using a PC in the house along with TiVo.
I have a PC that I surf the web, play games and so forth on. It has a 1 TB drive in it that I rip DVDs to and then use PyTiVo to play via any TiVo in my house to 3 different TV watching areas. I can also pull shows from my TiVo DVRs and transcode them to watch on my smartphone or many other portable devices. I paid 500$ for the PC and another 150$ for the 1TB drive a year or so ago. So really anything I want to do Media wise is possible with my TiVos and one cheap PC.

now comparing to cable company DVR price is different and the cable company can hide the upfront cost of the DVR in the cable bill they already charge which makes things different for the consumer who would pay the bill anyway. cable company DVRs do not have the added features that Tivo and HTPCs bring with them however.

PS - bkdtv is correct that the Supreme Court has not refused to hear the networked DVR case, they have asked the dept. of Justice to gather some info on the case and get the legislative branches take on the laws involved and what new ground this tech may open up. After they get that report then the Court will decide if they will hear the case.


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## davezatz

FYI I finally got around to posting some thoughts and photos from the CES press conference and a private briefing here:
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-01/digeo-takes-on-tivo-with-moxi/

Regarding the cost debate, Comcast doesn't charge me for my 3 CableCARDs or any outlet fees. Of course, this varies franchise to franchise and by whomever takes your call or does your install. A TiVo HD ~$250 plus $400 Lifetime is less than the $800 for Moxi. My bigger concern is that Paul Allen continues to fund Digeo and provide ongoing service, given the steep initial investment.

Here's a slide of how they're trying to differentiate:


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## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> A TiVo HD ~$250 plus $400 Lifetime is less than the $800 for Moxi. My bigger concern is that Paul Allen continues to fund Digeo and provide ongoing service, given the steep initial investment.


so as you point out = MOXI lies right on that screen in saying TiVo is overall higher cost. Also TiVo can easily be a one time cost as well since cable cards are used by both, so no differentiator there 

TiVo HD was born in HD, though MOxi benefits from a more pwerful gen of broadcom chips than Tivo HD has.

Moxi marketing is not doing their company any good when they use such easily refuted points.


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## davezatz

ZeoTiVo said:


> so as you point out = MOXI lies right on that screen in saying TiVo is overall higher cost. Also TiVo can easily be a one time cost as well since cable cards are used by both, so no differentiator there
> 
> TiVo HD was born in HD, though MOxi benefits from a more pwerful gen of broadcom chips than Tivo HD has.


Marketing teams do what they always do, try to point out how they're better and different, presenting things in the most positive light. It is, what it is. And hopefully most of us attending these things are good at filtering the fluff.

I believe they were comparing TiVo monthly subscription fees and/or also additional units with additional costs for multi-room viewing, etc. And not a one to one comparison of a Lifetimed unit (with less storage) as I just did. The "born in HD" point is specific to the Moxi UI and guide, and I assume these slides were written prior to TiVo's new search.


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## moyekj

Go figure, Monster (infamous for ridiculously priced cables) is licensing this overpriced Moxi offering. This quote from davezatz link above:


> In addition to Digeo's Moxi cable products and the new retail DVR, Digeo has also licensed the Moxi experience to Monster. Who've attempted to expand beyond pricey cables and break into home media and automation for a couple of years now. Two Monster iTV PowerCenter configurations, "Powered by Moxi," are expected to ship this summer, starting at $900.


When I think of Monster I think "sucker", so a dubious affiliation at best, but then again maybe that's their target consumer for this product.


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## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> Marketing teams do what they always do, try to point out how they're better and different, presenting things in the most positive light. It is, what it is. And hopefully most of us attending these things are good at filtering the fluff.


 understood - but if Moxi wants to try and tell me things that I know are flat out wrong than I start to filter the company into the fluff category.


> I believe they were comparing TiVo monthly subscription fees and/or also additional units with additional costs for multi-room viewing, etc. And not a one to one comparison of a Lifetimed unit (with less storage) as I just did.


 so Moxi is doing streaming or extender then? They do not clearly show that on the one screen. Note that I started this 'rant' after seeing a writeup that obviously came from PR dept that stated "At last no monthly fees..." sure they imply subscription and monthly that TiVo offers but it is just very bad marketing to someone like me who KNOWS Tivo lifetime is easy to get and can get a TiVoHD at retail for less and not pay TiVo anything else. Moxi seriously degrades their message to me when they pull this kind of semantics nonsense.



> The "born in HD" point is specific to the Moxi UI and guide, and I assume these slides were written prior to TiVo's new search.


We do have Moxi to thank for TiVo getting around to HD screens I think  I do want Moxi to get some traction and watch TiVo and Moxi get into a feature comparison world and give us DVR consumers some real choice. Moxi does not even mention manual mapping for QAM channels that is a real world differentiator. I just hope the execs talk to marketing and get them to hone their message to one of real world differences versus easily rebutted stuff that just seems like mean, dirty marketing.


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## davezatz

ZeoTiVo said:


> so Moxi is doing streaming or extender then? They do not clearly show that on the one screen.
> 
> Moxi does not even mention manual mapping for QAM channels that is a real world differentiator.


The QAM mapping stuff is pretty niche, and only came up in questioning. Not sure how many units that feature might move. They did introduce another "MoxiMate" extender solution which will be available later in the year - no fee, other than the hardware cost which we don't know yet. Keep in mind, there were a few dozen slides and an hour of commentary - so don't judge the entire message based the one I posted in this thread. Of course, the marketing materials on their website are fair game.


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## MickeS

The accompanying "media extender" is interesting, and something that many have been wondering if TiVo will do. The direction TiVo is currently going, it makes sense to have media extenders, the question is if it's feasible financially for them.



zatznotfunny said:


> Gudorf pretty much began his talk by proclaiming the Moxi HD DVR is "not a mass market product" - rather, it's a "premium" offering targeted at 12-15 million digital cable customers.


Hmm... where have I heard that before...


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## slowbiscuit

Agreed, marketing it as a 'premium' product will get them nowhere just as the S3 showed (and the expensive ReplayTVs with subs included showed earlier this decade). There's just not enough demand for an $800 DVR.

Now, if they really want to differentiate themselves and make a Tivo-killer, here's what I'd add:

- support for all popular video codecs, including H264, DivX, MKV, DVD rips. Have it be able to network directly to a PC, network-attached storage, etc. and play anything you throw at it. Make this thing the equivalent of a Popcorn Hour + DVR.

- multi-room DVR support with cooperative scheduling across all tuners. I know they announced an extender to be available later this year, but why stop there? I want to be able to seamlessly stream (not download) shows on any TV from any DVR. I also want to be able to see a master ToDo list across all boxes and have recording conflicts resolved automatically with coop scheduling.

- lower the price by a couple hundred, minimum - this is going to happen anyway as seen with the S3 so we'll just have to be patient.

- bring back the decent auto commercial skip that Replays had (I know, dream on, but what a great feature that's available on every HTPC solution).

- notably missing is access that Tivo takes for granted, such as Netflix, Youtube, etc. I don't count the mostly worthless Unbox but I know some use it. In addition to these, why stop there? Give us hulu, TV.com, etc. with more as they come out on the net. Don't make us wait forever for it like Tivo, it's just a website. Put flash support and a poor-man's browser in the damn thing if you have to.

Just my two cents, big thanks to Dave for the Moxi interview and writeup!!!! Would love to see a hands-on review, hope someone beats on it a bit then gives us a real-life comparo with the Tivo HD.


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## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> The QAM mapping stuff is pretty niche, and only came up in questioning. Not sure how many units that feature might move. They did introduce another "MoxiMate" extender solution which will be available later in the year - no fee, other than the hardware cost which we don't know yet. Keep in mind, there were a few dozen slides and an hour of commentary - so don't judge the entire message based the one I posted in this thread. Of course, the marketing materials on their website are fair game.


Fair enough, please keep in mind it is the Moxi material I am disparaging and not your reporting of it. 

and yes, hopefully TiVo will be looking at these Moximates as well as a great streaming add on. TiVo can setup something that Streams from partners like netflix or from the initial DVR. No tuners, no guide data, no cable cards, not a single luxury .


----------



## lrhorer

TexasGrillChef said:


> I say *NO*... It *WON"T* compete with TiVo.
> 
> *Why?*
> 
> Because *IT* won't *EVER *do as *MUCH* as the TiVo can do...


I don't know that's true. I don't know that it is not true, either. Truly, any DVR has a pretty tough row to hoe to match TiVo's capabilities, but while a difficult feat, it's certainly not impossible. Of course, one thing making the battle really tough is the fact TiVo holds a number of critical patents, and any DVR is going to have a hard time replacing those functions without risking infringing on Tivo's patents. Nonethelss, if Moxi truly has the moxi, then they might make a pretty good run at it. I've heard some good things about the box.
Tive is a really great product, but it's not sacred.


----------



## lrhorer

wm2008 said:


> There are more and more systems being released supporting cablecards. Tivo should be considering them a threat. I tested one for a number of months. BTW, I have no PC systems (W2K through Vista) which boot as slow as the THD.


I am going to challenge that, partially. First of all, despite Microsoft's clever ploy of partially booting the PC and then breaking off to allow the user to log in, in reality Windows does not boot all that quickly. I just ran a test on this PC, a 3.2 GHz, 64 bit, Dual core AMD Athlon processor system with 8G of RAM. Roughly speaking, that's something like 10 times the horsepower of a TiVo Series III. Booting this PC fully to the point of loading and starting a video application takes 3 minutes 34 seconds. Now, yes, that is faster than the 6 - 1/2 minutes it takes a Release 11 TiVoHD to boot or even the 5 - 1/2 minutes it takes an S3 to boot, but again the S3 has a much slower processor with much less memory. In addition, a booting TiVo spawns nearly 6000 threads, while the booting Windows machine spawns just over 4000 threads. That's quite a bit of extra work, yet if the TiVo's processing system were anywhere in the league of the PC's, it is possible it might boot much, much faster - maybe.

I truly don't want to be offensive, wm2008, but you have a penchant for hand waving in these threads. The fact is, a major part of the boot time may be absorbed by various timings having relatively little to do with processor speed. It's also quite possible the bottlenecks are somewhere other than the processor and memory. Certainly once the boot is finished the system resources are mostly adequate, and that's what is important. Looking at the memory utilization, the fact 20% or real memory is free and only 1.6M of swap space is in use suggests the admittedly small amount of real memory (128M on the THD) is sufficient. Of course it is entirely possible there are some memory intensive processes during boot which eat up the real memory and then release it. All things considered, however, I feel the Tivo would be worth the extra $10 or so it would cost to bump its memory to 256M or 512M. At the very least, the guide database could then be moved entirely into memory (which the Turbonet adapter on the S1 does), speeding up database operations and lessening the impact of indexing on the system.

Similarly, the CPU is anything but a racehorse, although being RISC it is very efficient, and much faster for most operations than a comparable CISC processor. The system is capable of simultaneously recording two best quality SD recordings, uploading or downloading a high bandwidth HD video on the LAN, and displaying a high bandwidth HD video onscreen while indexing download information. This is the maximum operational load with which the system is faced during normal operation, so clearly the CPU is fast enough, although the fact the download speeds and system responsiveness suffer measurably under such a load strongly suggests the CPU is not much more high powered than it absolutely must be. Once againm a faster CPU would be nice, but here we might be talking about an extra $40 or $50 or more. How many people would be willing to pay this premium? I would, but then I make extensive use of LAN features most common TiVo users do not. Actually, the better answer to the CPU limitations might be an intelligent NIC, rather than a CPU upgrade. This might not only be less expensive, but it would potentially offload a great deal of processing off the CPU to move the layer 2 - 4 processing off the CPU and onto an external processor. Of course, this would require different kernel modules than the ones currently compiled or modded into the kernel, but that's no big deal.



wm2008 said:


> Since somebody made the comparisoon, I'll also comment that the comparison between a Tivo and a PC is not relevant.


Then why did you compare boot times of the TiVo with your PCs?



wm2008 said:


> Tivo controls (unless you mod it) absolutely all content and changes - hw and sw - to their devices. No 3rd party changes or modification. That has an incredible impact and should allow for unparallel reliability, speed and performance in a closed system.


It does, qualified by the fact some processes are locked into the code parameters required by the chip manufacturers of various peripheral devices, such as the CableCards, tuners, and video chips employed by the TiVo. Nonetheless, it's true. Try this on your PC:

1. Enable hard drive compression and encryption on your data partition. There are quite a few 3rd party drive encryption utilities available.

2. Fire up two instances of your favorite ripping software and start ripping two DVDs to your encrypted drive.

3. Initiate a file copy of a very large file (like a video file) from another machine on your LAN to the encrypted drive.

4. Initiate some database searches on a large scale database hosted on the machine.

5. Fire up your favorite video player app (Power DVD, Roxio, etc.) and start watching a high bandwidth 1080i HD program off the encrypted drive.

See what happens. The machine on which I am typing this message, as mentioned above, is a pretty fast one. It's not a Ferrari, but then it's price tag is only about 6 times what the TiVo's is. Yet depending on what else is going on, it sometimes has problems just delivering a full bandwidth HD video from an unencrypted drive.


----------



## wm2008

ZeoTiVo said:


> do you have some actual data on what it costs to manufacture or is that another speculation you state as if it was fact?
> Most TiVo HD DVRs hardware can be had for 250$ or less, not really sure where you are getting it costs so much compared to an HTPC hardware. Sure and HTPC is a PC and thus by definition multi-purpose but TiVo has no exclusive clause prohibiting someone from using a PC in the house along with TiVo.


Would you please actually read the post? My comment about the cost proposition of the Tivo and that it's actually "overpriced" (from a hardware pespective) stems from the FACT that the processor is factually relatively slow, and the overall capabilities are relatively very narrow and limited. I was not comparing the cost to HTPC - I was comparing the cost to a "computer" considering that so many others here have erroneously tried to insist that for example having to relatively frequently reboot the Tivo is fine because you should have to do that for a PC. I was pointing to the fact that the TivoHD has minimal memory, and that the hard drive is frankly a relatively low cost HD. I also agreed that the "tuners" with cablecard support are ALSO overpriced right now. And, that the software of the Tivo is obviously more mature than that of HTPC, therefore the TivoHD for example is more user friendly for its purpose at this time.


----------



## lew

Moxi has a long way to go. I put in my zip code and Cablevision isn't listed as a suported cable system (FiOS is).


----------



## wm2008

lrhorer said:


> I am going to challenge that, partially. First of all, despite Microsoft's clever ploy of partially booting the PC and then breaking off to allow the user to log in, in reality Windows does not boot all that quickly. I just ran a test on this PC, a 3.2 GHz, 64 bit, Dual core AMD Athlon processor system with 8G of RAM. Roughly speaking, that's something like 10 times the horsepower of a TiVo Series III. Booting this PC fully to the point of loading and starting a video application takes 3 minutes 34 seconds. Now, yes, that is faster than the 6 - 1/2 minutes it takes a Release 11 TiVoHD to boot or even the 5 - 1/2 minutes it takes an S3 to boot, but again the S3 has a much slower processor with much less memory. In addition, a booting TiVo spawns nearly 6000 threads, while the booting Windows machine spawns just over 4000 threads. That's quite a bit of extra work, yet if the TiVo's processing system were anywhere in the league of the PC's, it is possible it might boot much, much faster - maybe..


Well, no surprise that we disagree. The extremely large difference is this.

The MS based PC cannot and will not be a closed system whereby all changes, interfaces, etc are completely controlled by MS and are not able to be modified in any way unless MS directly makes that modification. This even includes not only SW changes, but also hw changes. As a result,you might expect that code cannot be optimized for performance, but also must include considerations for compliance and compatibility that frankly Tivo has never had to remotely consider. Furthermore, your comparison and notation of MS's "clever" ploy is actually a REQUIREMENT because of authentication requirements and because the PC is a multipurpose device which requires individual identity information. Using the term "cleverly" is frankly disengenuous. It's a requirement.



lrhorer said:


> I truly don't want to be offensive, wm2008, but you have a penchant for hand waving in these threads.


And I truly don't want to be offensive, but my "hand waving" is simply dissatisfaction for a product that is not working acceptibly or properly, and because Tivo has done absolutely nothing to remediate it. You yourself to me have a penchant for complete disregard for anything that might remotely be considered a problem for Tivo. One might think you're employed by them. "Hand waving"? I suppose it's hand waving to expect a unit to function.



lrhorer said:


> The fact is, a major part of the boot time may be absorbed by various timings having relatively little to do with processor speed. It's also quite possible the bottlenecks are somewhere other than the processor and memory. Certainly once the boot is finished the system resources are mostly adequate, and that's what is important. Looking at the memory utilization, the fact 20% or real memory is free and only 1.6M of swap space is in use suggests the admittedly small amount of real memory (128M on the THD) is sufficient. Of course it is entirely possible there are some memory intensive processes during boot which eat up the real memory and then release it. All things considered, however, I feel the Tivo would be worth the extra $10 or so it would cost to bump its memory to 256M or 512M. At the very least, the guide database could then be moved entirely into memory (which the Turbonet adapter on the S1 does), speeding up database operations and lessening the impact of indexing on the system.


And we disagree. The fact that memory utilization (according to you - I really haven't cared enough to check because frankly I can't do anything with the info anyway) is only 20% is not indicative that there is enough or that it wouldn't benefit from more. More accurately, the existing SW is written such that it uses 20% and perhaps by adding more physical memory more could be cached increasing performance. But I don't know, and I did NOT say that the Tivo didn't have enough memory. I simply said that the COST of the unit is unnecessarily high considering how much memory there is. Please don't try to take comments and twist them.



lrhorer said:


> Similarly, the CPU is anything but a racehorse, although being RISC it is very efficient, and much faster for most operations than a comparable CISC processor. The system is capable of simultaneously recording two best quality SD recordings, uploading or downloading a high bandwidth HD video on the LAN, and displaying a high bandwidth HD video onscreen while indexing download information. This is the maximum operational load with which the system is faced during normal operation, so clearly the CPU is fast enough, although the fact the download speeds and system responsiveness suffer measurably under such a load strongly suggests the CPU is not much more high powered than it absolutely must be. Once againm a faster CPU would be nice, but here we might be talking about an extra $40 or $50 or more. How many people would be willing to pay this premium? I would, but then I make extensive use of LAN features most common TiVo users do not. Actually, the better answer to the CPU limitations might be an intelligent NIC, rather than a CPU upgrade. This might not only be less expensive, but it would potentially offload a great deal of processing off the CPU to move the layer 2 - 4 processing off the CPU and onto an external processor. Of course, this would require different kernel modules than the ones currently compiled or modded into the kernel, but that's no big deal.


And similarly you take the conversation out of context again. Please read more carefully, OK? My comment was about the cost of the Tivo when considering the actual hw being sold. NOT whether or not the Tivo needs a faster processor or more memory. That being said, considering that I've already seen where the statistics in terms of signal, utilization, etc are not "accurate" (ie, sunrise meter shows completely different signal related stats than Tivo does) I would not be willing to say that the Tivo would not benefit from faster processing and/or memory.

The attempted comparison of loading times, etc between a Tivo and PC are inherently flawed for the very reason that you yourself admit. The PC is optimized to do an entire almost limitless range of functions. It must equally consider compatibility, etc - which the Tivo can completely disregard. However, as the Tivo attempts to expand its marketplace it encroaches on that "non-tivo" area, and will need to similarly expand its code set. It will - by necessity - become more and more bloated. That's not a criticism of Tivo - that's just reality, for example demonstrated by the Netflix on demand (which is currently causing lockups and reboots in many cases - a clear SW issue).

The issue - and the comment I made - was simply about how when taking the actual hardware components at face value, the Tivo is kind of an overpriced PC with a limited code set. The UI and service value cannot be considered, as they are really part of the service fee which is either Monthly or another $300 or so. It was not a condemnation of the Tivo - just a reality check.

Further, please recognize that over time, the Tivo patents will expire - just as patents for the use of DVD technology, CD formatting, and all kinds of other patents, eventually expire as their typical use becomes more mainstream and ubiquitous. Different subject, but related to the idea that nobody can EVER equal a Tivo.


----------



## wm2008

lew said:


> Moxi has a long way to go. I put in my zip code and Cablevision isn't listed as a suported cable system (FiOS is).


You may want to check further. For almost a year Fios didn't list my zip code as supported - while I was watching Fios. An adjacent zip code was, and they treated all of us in this area as being part of that one zip code.


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## lew

wm2008 said:


> You may want to check further. For almost a year Fios didn't list my zip code as supported - while I was watching Fios. An adjacent zip code was, and they treated all of us in this area as being part of that one zip code.


I'm not looking to buy a Mox, just curious. Not good for business if they can't get the zip code database current.


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## fallingwater

Moxi's GUI is pretty compared with TiVo, but...


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## bareyb

The only value I see in the Moxi box is that it provides competition for TiVo and some ideas that they may incorporate in future TiVo boxes. I see no compelling reason to buy one over the Series 3 that I have now. It has the same basic functionality with a different interface and is missing many of the features that I use frequently. If it had four tuners it might be interesting, but as it stands, I don't see how it's any better than what I have now. I agree with everyone else though, it's nice that it's out there as it will help keep TiVo on their toes. I have a feeling we'll be seeing a new interface from TiVo before too long anyway.


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## fallingwater

> "HDTV owners will no longer have to pay a monthly fee to get high-definition DVR capabilities: Digeo's Moxi HD DVR, launched Thursday at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES), costs $799 up front, with no subscription charges"





wm2008 said:


> The article is accurate. No subscription is no subscription. If you pay for lifetime service you're still paying for a subscription.


The article is as meaningless as it is accurate. TiVo owners no longer have to pay a monthly fee to get high definition DVR capabilities.

TiVo by any comparison is a better value than Moxi. It offers a variety of payment options and its hi-def DVRs provide two simultaneous channels from cable and OTA analog and digital sources. Moxi offers two simultaneous digital cable channels plus, with a separately shipped tuner dongle, one analog channel from cable but no OTA at all. Moxi doesn't have TiVo's track record with regards to stability/reliability issues, yet doesn't offer a 30 day money back guarantee to a new buyer as TiVo does.

Moxi offers a pretty GUI, a FSI, and unscrambled QAM mapping. How much these features are worth is for the market to decide, but TiVo has already taken steps toward a more attractive GUI with their new TiVo Search. Moxi's most useful 'feature' for DVR users is that it gives TiVo much needed competition!


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## wierdo

If it weren't $800, I'd be interested in at least trying out a Moxi box, but it is, so I won't.

As far as 'extenders' go, at&t's U-Verse total home DVR offering has left me more than a little jaded on that. I consider it essentially useless. Viewing the recorded content is laggy and the non-DVR boxes can't trick play live tv or manage the DVR's recordings. So if you see something you want to record..too bad.

And TiVo booting slow? That's not a function of the CPU so much, it's entirely down to disk bandwidth and TiVo's purposeful choice to checksum most of the files on the system partitions to thwart hacking. The OS itself only takes a short while to boot once that process is complete.

One thing that does really really annoy me about TiVo's newfound fascination with HME is the ridiculous latency in any of the HME apps, even on a very fast connection. If TiVo keeps moving in that direction, it'll end up far slower than its competitors.


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## fallingwater

fallingwater said:


> ...TiVo by any comparison is a better value than Moxie. It offers a variety of payment options and its hi-def DVRs provide two simultaneous channels from cable and OTA analog and digital sources. Moxie offers two simultaneous digital cable channels plus, with a separately shipped tuner dongle, one analog channel from cable but no OTA at all. Moxie doesn't have TiVo's track record with regards to stability/reliability issues, yet doesn't offer a 30 day money back guarantee to a new buyer as TiVo does.
> 
> Moxie offers a pretty GUI, a FSI, and unscrambled QAM mapping. How much these features are worth is for the market to decide, but TiVo has already taken steps toward a more attractive GUI with their new TiVo Search. Moxie's most useful 'feature' for DVR users is that it gives TiVo much needed competition!


Spurred by a question in the QAM mapping thread I downloaded the Moxi User Guide:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7005603#post7005603
http://moxi.com/support/MC4R/MoxiHDDVR_userguide.pdf

Besides the Moxi QAM mapping info, I ran across the following (on page 87). Apparently multiple External Hard Drives can be swapped in/out one at a time ala Echostar without an additional fee:

*External Storage Device

To expand the space you have for recorded programs, you can connect one external hard drive at a time to the rear eSATA port on the Moxi HD DVR.
When selecting an external drive, keep in mind that the Moxi HD DVR only supports eSATA storage devices marketed or certified for DVR use. We recommend using an external hard drive with a minimum rotation speed of 7,200 rpms, a minimum 160 GB (maximum 2 TB) storage capacity, and an 8 MB cache.

To set one up:
1. Plug the eSATA connector into the eSATA port on the rear of the Moxi system.
2. Wait for the confirmation that Moxi recognizes the external hard drive.
3. If this is the first time this hard drive has been connected to this Moxi system, or if the hard drive is not properly formatted for any reason, the Moxi system will ask if you want to reformat the external hard drive. . (Reformatting deletes all data on the hard drive). Select yes to confirm to reformat the external hard drive.
4. Once the external hard drive is recognized and properly formatted, the Moxi scheduler will include the additional space in scheduling decisions.

To disconnect one:

Disconnecting an external hard drive while it is in use (playing a recording or recording a show), can result in corrupting stored data.

1. Manually stop all recordings in progress by selecting the program card in the Moxi Menu, and then choosing stop recording.
2. In the Settings category, select the External Hard Drive card.
3. Select disconnect, and then press OK.
4. You may be presented with a message that the drive is still busy. Please repeat the disconnted process at a later time.*

Click on *External Hard Drive* to see Moxi's absurdly simple FSI!
http://moxi.com/moxi/experience_features.jsp

While Moxi apparently is only available from Amazon.com at present Amazon does have a 30 day return policy on electronics:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?ie=UTF8&nodeId=901908

TiVo may be feeling some heat! Moxi still has to show it's a worthy competitor to TiVo with regards to reliability/stability issues, and can, as a niche product, maintain a course through the current rough financial seas.


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## TexasGrillChef

May or may not be a competitor.... Although I have no desire to switch. I am staying with TiVo. I am happy where I am at. My TiVo's work just fine. Knock on wood! LOL

TGC


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## Mindflux

lew said:


> Moxi has a long way to go. I put in my zip code and Cablevision isn't listed as a suported cable system (FiOS is).


Some would argue that they are doing it right then. CV = :down:


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## fallingwater

I just tried to send the following message to Digeo using this link, the only means their website offers. It stalled out and wasn't sent. That's a bigger put-off than Moxi's price. A technology company which isn't accessible! Moxi may need some work before being ready for Primetime. 
http://www.digeo.com/culture_contact.jsp

_Hi;

I'm considering buying your new Moxi HD DVR. Before doing so I need answers to some questions:

1. Can I get Moxi's analog tuning dongle without having to prove that I can't receive programming without it?

2. Can more than one external HDD be used as long as only one is connected at a time?

3. Will Moxi be available from other sellers besides Amazon.com? Will Digeo.com continue to offer a 30 day return policy for brand-new Moxis, as TiVo does for its DVRs?

Thanks for any info._


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## lardoggydogg

fallingwater said:


> I just tried to send the following message to Digeo using this link, the only means their website offers. It stalled out and wasn't sent. That's a bigger put-off than Moxi's price. A technology company which isn't accessible! Moxi may need some work before being ready for Primetime.


It appears the entire Moxi site was down, at least for a moment . . . back now


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## ZeoTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> gah, I stopped reading right at this point
> "HDTV owners will no longer have to pay a monthly fee to get high-definition DVR capabilities: Digeo's Moxi HD DVR, launched Thursday at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES), costs $799 up front, with no subscription charges"
> 
> a reporter covering DVRs should know you could get a TiVo HD with lifetime for 699$ retail and first time buyer and have been able to do so for quite some time now. It should be embarrassing for any one writing an article on DVRs to either not know that and or not to wordsmith the sentence to have it reflect you actually know something about the types of DVRs available.





fallingwater said:


> The article is as meaningless as it is accurate. TiVo owners no longer have to pay a monthly fee to get high definition DVR capabilities.
> 
> TiVo by any comparison is a better value than Moxie. It offers a variety of payment options and its hi-def DVRs provide two simultaneous channels from cable and OTA analog and digital sources. Moxie offers two simultaneous digital cable channels plus, with a separately shipped tuner dongle, one analog channel from cable but no OTA at all. Moxie doesn't have TiVo's track record with regards to stability/reliability issues, yet doesn't offer a 30 day money back guarantee to a new buyer as TiVo does.
> 
> Moxie offers a pretty GUI, a FSI, and unscrambled QAM mapping. How much these features are worth is for the market to decide, but TiVo has already taken steps toward a more attractive GUI with their new TiVo Search. Moxie's most useful 'feature' for DVR users is that it gives TiVo much needed competition!


why did you quote me as if I was saying the PR crap from MOXI. clearly I was saying the same thing as you say when my full post is looked at and you see that I had simply put the MOXI PR misstatement in quotes to show what i was referring to. In subsequent posts in this thread I also addressed the outright lies of Moxi


> TiVo higher total cost


on the PowerPoint presentation they did at CES. It does not bode well for the management at Diego, which is sad as I would like to see a legitimate competitor to TiVo to broaden the standalone market

please fix your post so it does not attribute me as saying the MOXI PR nonsense


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## fallingwater

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7004142#post7004142


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## ZeoTiVo

fallingwater said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7004142#post7004142


thanks :up:


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## fallingwater

_Moxi received a rather lightweight revue in the current (April/May) Sound & Vision Magazine, not yet online. The reviewer, John Sciacca, made an obvious error when he confused CableCARDS with tuners. He then went on to say that if Moxi is used with its optional analog tuning dongle it can record three programs at the same time.

He stated that the Switched Digital Video resolver currently available only works with HDTiVo but that Digeo expects 'a Cable Labs approved solution to be available for the Moxi in mid 2009'. He was able to receive only 120 of his Time Warner cable system's 274 channels, including only 13 out of 48 hi-def channels. Comcast Cable in my area doesn't utilize SDV.

Sciacca reported having to deal with a defective CableCARD during installation which resulted in Moxi's clock at first losing 6 to 10 minutes an hour making recordings impossible until the card was replaced. His review also stated that Moxi's PC Link feature didn't work at all, even after a Digeo tech came out to troubleshoot it, and that 'Digeo...says that an upgrade to 'full DNLA compliance this spring should eliminate the problem'.
http://www.dlna.org/industry/why_dlna/overview

I'll be getting Moxi next month to evaluate it along with the analog tuner dongle, taking advantage of Digeo's 30 day money back guarantee. Sciacca's review states that Digeo charges $25 shipping and handling for the dongle so Moxi's price is closer to $825 than $800. Amazon.com, Moxi's only retail source, currently is offering free shipping for both Moxi and HDTiVo.

If there's interest I'll post about Moxi after getting familiar with it. Moxi's reliability is most important to me along with whether it's intuitive and fun to use. I won't be evaluating all the computer related features, acknowledgedly important to many TCF posters, because they're not important to me.

Overall, it will be interesting to see how Moxi's approach works compared with TiVo and cable's (Moto) hi-def DVR._
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7167543#post7167543

---

_I've been exchanging emails with Digeo, and will order a Moxi tomorrow when my CC billing period rolls over.

Three things worth noting so far:

Digeo confirms that when used with the analog tuning dongle Moxi can record three programs simultaneously, one of course from a standard-def analog source.

Digeo, without my requesting it, has stated they'll waive the shipping and handling fee for the dongle.

Digeo stated that the price for out-of-warrantee service after Moxi's 90 day labor/1 yr. parts warrantee expires is a flat $75 for labor and $55 for a 500GB replacement HDD which is competitive with TiVo's (unofficial, I believe) $150 flat rate out-of-warrantee service for TiVo brand DVRs._
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7176112#post7176112


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## davezatz

> Digeo stated that the price for out-of-warrantee service after Moxi's 90 day labor/1 yr. parts warrantee expires is a flat $75 for labor and $55 for a 500GB replacement HDD which is competitive with TiVo's (unofficial, I believe) $150 flat rate out-of-warrantee service for TiVo brand DVRs.


Wonder if they'll be around in a year for servicing. Or to provide a guide. :/


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## qz3fwd

Not at the out of pocket price point they are asking for considering many people cannot perform simple algebra and compare the TCO for the Moxi compared to a Tivo!


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## mattack

Interesting.. 3 analog recordings at the same time. So what *is* the analog adapter? Is it separate tuners???


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## clark_kent

I posted this in another thread, but seems appropriate to post in here: I'm finding myself more and more interested in what MOXI has to offer. I don't have a MOXI (yet) but I found this to be interesting reading in the MOXI user guide regarding channel mapping:

(http://moxi6-px.rtrk.com/us/support/..._userguide.pdf)

Quote:

In the Moxi Menu, navigate to Settings, and then select the Channel List option If there are unmapped tunable channels, the Channel Mapping card appears. When you select it, the vertical list will display all tunable channels that were not associated with an EPG channel at the time of your channel scan. You can select Map All to map all of the channels at once. To map an individual channel:
1. Navigate an unmapped channel into center focus. Press the right arrow and then use the up/down arrows to review the list of available unassociated EPG channels.
2. Determine which unmapped EPG channel applies to an unmapped scanned tunable channel by reviewing the current programming information presented or by watching the channel. When you find a match, press OK on the EPG channel and respond to the Map This Channel? confirmation. The channel will not display in the list as a mapped channel.
3. If you determine that you mapped an EPG channel to a tunable channel in error, from the Channel Mapping card, navigate to the mapped channel, press OK, and respond to the confirmation, Un-map this channel? Follow procedures in the steps above to map the channel correctly.

End Quote.

It doesn't look like channel mapping is rocket science after all.

Another Quote:

Purchase your MOXI HD DVR today and put it to work for 30 days. At the end of 30 days, if you dont agree its the best HD DVR on the market, send it back, no questions asked. Go-ahead, Buy Now (Edit inserted link: http://moxi6-px.rtrk.com/us/buy_now.html).

End Quote.

Here's a MOXI vs TiVo comparison (by MOXI):

http://moxi6-px.rtrk.com/us/tivo_vs_moxi.html

I like TiVo and have ever since I got the Series 1 when it first came out. I now have a TiVoHD (and still use the S1), but I have been very frustrated (and annoyed) as to how TiVo has treated the hole cable card issue, the guide data issue as well as the clearQAM mapping issue. I hope TiVo gets on the stick and fixes the mapping and guide data issue in light of some (apparently) real competition, otherwise I'm moving on.


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## BigJimOutlaw

I'd like to hear what people think about the Moxi if they try it out. They may be a viable option thanks to the QAM mapping.

It'd cost me about $400 in the first year to get the most out of Tivo (HD package fee, cable card fee, security deposit fee on cards, plus tivo service fee). Even with a premium cost, Moxi could offset itself in about 2 years and would save me manual recording annoyances all the while = HUGE PLUS.

So if the product does what it should, it'll be interesting and tempting.


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## fallingwater

mattack said:


> Interesting.. 3 analog recordings at the same time. So what *is* the analog adapter? Is it separate tuners???


Actually Moxi can simultaneously record two digital recordings, either hi-def or standard, plus one analog standard-def recording from an optional outboard analog tuner offered at no extra cost (except S & H, which Moxi waived).


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## fallingwater

davezatz said:


> Wonder if they'll be around in a year for servicing. Or to provide a guide. :/


Seriously, anything's possible but I'm betting they/it will, regardless of the success of their standalone cable DVR.


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## rainwater

fallingwater said:


> Seriously, anything's possible but I'm betting they/it will, regardless of the success of their standalone cable DVR.


What do you base this on? Over the past year, they have failed to release so many promised devices, it is clear there is major trouble at the company.


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## davezatz

rainwater said:


> What do you base this on? Over the past year, they have failed to release so many promised devices, it is clear there is major trouble at the company.


I spoke to a pair of reps at The Cable Show on Wednesday. They don't seem concerned, said they're shipping "millions" of their cable (not retail) units. That business could surely sustain the company. Their number one customer (Charter) is in bankruptcy right now - depends how things play out and who's in control after all's said and done I suppose.

Also, post show, I heard from one of my Digeo contacts that they're closer to getting me a review unit. I sure hope they make it happen soon... this device was released in December and there's yet to be a review. I heard from a mainstream tech web site they have a unit in house, but last I checked with Eng and Giz a couple of weeks ago they hadn't received anything either. No idea why - is it that they don't know how to run a review program? Is it that the software hasn't been fully baked? None of the above, something else? Hm.


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## fallingwater

Today I received two packages from Moxi/Digeo; both the Moxi DVR and the analog tuning dongle.

The gameplan is to use Moxi without a CableCARD to test how well its manual channel mapping works (about which I'll post in the QAM mapping thread) and connect the tuning dongle to coax (ch. 3) from a standard-def digital STB to enable setting manual recordings from premium channels and VOD.

Will post ongoing reports as info becomes available. Requests or questions are welcome. Hopefully I'll be able to provide useful info.


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## fallingwater

fallingwater said:


> Seriously, anything's possible but I'm betting they/it will, regardless of the success of their standalone cable DVR.





rainwater said:


> What do you base this on? Over the past year, they have failed to release so many promised devices, it is clear there is major trouble at the company.


As stated it's a gamble I'm willing to make. Do you know of any discontinued DVRs which lost their EPGs other than ones utilizing free TVGOS? Even LG's MS based LRM-519 DVR/DVD recorder still receives free EPG data from a broadband connection.

TVGOS is in a state of flux based on the digital transition. I get digital OTA TVGOS from CITV-DT Vancouver, BC and from Comcast on KIRO 7 Seattle, and still get analog TVGOS from Comcast KCTS 9, Seattle. There's a possible workaround for getting analog TVGOS data from an OTA digital source by using Dish's (non-DVR) DTV Pal+.


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## lrhorer

wm2008 said:


> The MS based PC cannot and will not be a closed system whereby all changes, interfaces, etc are completely controlled by MS and are not able to be modified in any way unless MS directly makes that modification. This even includes not only SW changes, but also hw changes. As a result,you might expect that code cannot be optimized for performance, but also must include considerations for compliance and compatibility that frankly Tivo has never had to remotely consider.


So do desktop based Linux distros, and on a comparable machine, Linux beats Windows thirty ways from zero. If my Tivos performed anyhwere nearly as poorly as Windows based machines, they would find themselves on a trash heap.



wm2008 said:


> Furthermore, your comparison and notation of MS's "clever" ploy is actually a REQUIREMENT because of authentication requirements and because the PC is a multipurpose device which requires individual identity information.


That's specious. Linux is not only multi-tasking, it is multi-user, and the authentication requirements only take a fraction of a second, even in a very large enterprise system. Yes, there are some tasks which absoulutely require user authentication, but Linux handles these quite expeditiously. What's more, with the exception of ACL lists, Linux authentication is considerably more sophisticated than that employed by Windows. Most of what Windows loads after authentication does not require any authentication. Now, I am not going to sit here and claim - as may others do - to know the motivations behind a company's practices. It's entirely possible Window's poor booting performce post authentication is due to lazy or incompetent programming (lord knows there is enough of that at MS) rather than intent, and that the comparativley quick (but not that quick) loading of the pre-authentication screen is merely a byproduct of the process about which MS crows loudly as if it were intent, but the fact is it is a sham, either way. MS does not boot quickly, and if a Windows machine spawned 6000 threads similar to those spawned by the Tivo prior to flashing the pre-authentication screen, you would find it took very much longer than the Tivo, even on a machine which is inherently more than 10 times faster, as is the case with an average desktop machines.



wm2008 said:


> Using the term "cleverly" is frankly disengenuous. It's a requirement.


Horse pookey. One has the ability to bypass the authentication in a Windows machine. Do so and you will find it takes just as long to load the processes, including all those which it *SHOULD* be loading prior to authentication. More to the point, it would take Windows a huge amount of time to load all the processes after authentication that the Tivo is loading prior to splashing the screen with Tivo Central. You are arguing Windows is faster by comparing its handling of a fraction as much code and hardware initialization as the TiVo. It's apples and oranges. Only by comparing a Windows boot all the way through authentication up to and including the total disappearance of the hourglass after loading a couple of video routies does one approach comparing apples and apples. When one does, guess what? On a machine which is ten times faster, Windows is only a little faster.



wm2008 said:


> And I truly don't want to be offensive, but my "hand waving" is simply dissatisfaction for a product that is not working acceptibly or properly


The two are unrelated and irrelevant to each other. Expressing discontent with a product is appropriate in every respect and needs no justification other than your own prefernces and personal experiences. Hand waving involves facile interpretations of situations based upon - or at least involving - a high degree of ignorace of the underlying fact. "I like ice cream and hate broccoli" is a valid opinion. "Ice cream is more nutritious than broccoli" is hand waving.



wm2008 said:


> and because Tivo has done absolutely nothing to remediate it.


... and there is an example. It is hand waving to imperiously suggest there is something trivial and costing nothing which TiVo can or should do to remediate what you believe to be a deficiency. It is hand waving to compare the amount of time it taskes the TiVo to spawn more than twice the number of threads to a Windows machine which does almost no hardware initialization (other than the network and the hard drives) and a fraction of the computing, and then suggest it is justification for the notion a TiVo is slow to boot up.



wm2008 said:


> You yourself to me have a penchant for complete disregard for anything that might remotely be considered a problem for Tivo. One might think you're employed by them. "Hand waving"? I suppose it's hand waving to expect a unit to function.


It is hand waving to claim a unit should function in a particular way when one has no idea of the requirements pursuant to such functionality. For my purposes, the TiVo is underpowered, has too little RAM, needs a Gigabit Ethernet interface, and far, far too small a hard drive. Bringing these items to where they need to be would only cost about $500 more than current units, which I would gladly be willing to pay for the additional functionality. How much are you willing to pay for the enhancements you demand? My Tivos function. Since yours clearly do not, obviously you would be happy to send them to me free of charge if I offer to pay the shipping, yes?



wm2008 said:


> And we disagree. The fact that memory utilization (according to you - I really haven't cared enough to check because frankly I can't do anything with the info anyway) is only 20% is not indicative that there is enough or that it wouldn't benefit from more.


You really should teach a class in hand waving: "I haven't botherred to check the facts because I wouldn't know what they mean and since I have no idea how things work I can claim the facts are meaningless."



wm2008 said:


> More accurately, the existing SW is written such that it uses 20% and perhaps by adding more physical memory more could be cached increasing performance.


Adding a half gig or so would allow the unit to cache the guide data, which can have a reasonable impact on how snappy the searches are. Other than that, there is no data set or process on the TiVo requiring a large amount of memory. Inline subroutines can bloat a program's memory image to a significant extent, but not that much. Other than that, smaller, tighter code is going to be faster in almost every situation.



wm2008 said:


> But I don't know, and I did NOT say that the Tivo didn't have enough memory. I simply said that the COST of the unit is unnecessarily high considering how much memory there is. Please don't try to take comments and twist them.


First of all, all statements to that effect were made by you AFTER the post to which I replied, not before. Secondly, your hand waving lost you sight of the fact the suggestion there is an inexpensive and simple remedy which Tivo should implement implies a simple and readily implementable upgrade, such as adding memory or using a faster processor - of which there was not a faster one when the S3 line was developed - would solve the issue. My point, which you seem to have missed altogether, is that adding more memory or implementing a faster processor won't do much at all to aleviate the problems you perceive it to have, since the system is not starved for either in most of its daily operations. For my purposes it needs a faster processor and more memory, but most people won't be using the Tivo the way I want.



wm2008 said:


> And similarly you take the conversation out of context again. Please read more carefully, OK? My comment was about the cost of the Tivo when considering the actual hw being sold.


The comments to which I responded said nothing whatsoever about cost, one way or the other. They just prattled along about what the Tivo unit should be or what TiVo, Inc. should do, without any consideration (or apparently understanding) of the costs and implications thereof. In short: hand waving.



wm2008 said:


> NOT whether or not the Tivo needs a faster processor or more memory. That being said, considering that I've already seen where the statistics in terms of signal, utilization, etc are not "accurate" (ie, sunrise meter shows completely different signal related stats than Tivo does) I would not be willing to say that the Tivo would not benefit from faster processing and/or memory.


Well, there's what you say - or are willing to say, and there are accurate statements based upon factual data and an understanding of the systems themselves. I fear the two bear little resemblence to each other.



wm2008 said:


> The issue - and the comment I made - was simply about how when taking the actual hardware components at face value, the Tivo is kind of an overpriced PC with a limited code set.


Once again, statements to that effect were not made prior to the post to which I replied. Please do not expect us respond to statements you will make in the future, as opposed to those already made.



wm2008 said:


> Different subject, but related to the idea that nobody can EVER equal a Tivo.


Please show me where I ever made this statement, or anything close to the effect. Quite the contrary, IMO, the Series II TiVo sucked compared to the Series I, yet the Series III is fact superior in most important respects than either. That's why I bought 3 Series III TiVos but never a series II. Clearly, Tivo itself was able to make a DVR which equalled a TiVo and one which didn't. If something better comes along (and I can afford it), I'll get it.


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## lrhorer

wm2008 said:


> There is no "subscription" fee (except for the cablecards). There IS a subscription fee for the Tivo. You may pay lifetime (it was not always available) but it's still a "subscription fee". The "total cost" of the different units may turn out to be the same, but technically, the Moxi has no DVR subscription fee and the Tivo does.


What swamp gas! That's pure media marketing bull pookey! How it is itemized or what it is labeled is completely irrelevant. I'll happily sell you a brand new Mazarati for $1 as long as you agree in writing to also buy an auto air freshener for $380,000. The Moxi charges subscription fees, no matter what they choose to call them or where they load the fees. To suggest they do not is an out-and-out lie. There are, however, two fairly important differences. TiVo offers the option of payng the fees monthly, rather than up front, which may be more attractive to some buyers. The fact they do not always offer the option to pay subscription fees in a lump sum, which is the only option with the Moxi, does not alter the fact. The second important difference is TiVo offers to discount the subscription fees if one purchases two or more TiVos, no matter when one buys them. So far as I know, Moxi does not offer a second or third unit discount at any time.


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## lrhorer

wierdo said:


> And TiVo booting slow? That's not a function of the CPU so much, it's entirely down to disk bandwidth and TiVo's purposeful choice to checksum most of the files on the system partitions to thwart hacking. The OS itself only takes a short while to boot once that process is complete.


Um, not so much, really. The checksum doesn't take long, and disabling the checksum doesn't speed up the unit very much at all. It still takes over 6 minutes for a THD to boot.


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## rritterson

I recently compared MOXI and TiVo side by side and ended up going with TiVo, because:

-Being compelled to pay $800 for lifetime service is not a plus, in my opinion. It takes ~3 years to breakeven on lifetime service, and I'm not sure what cable TV is going to look like in 3 years. With the dawn of services like Hulu, it's entirely possible that all of my TV program watching will actually become internet watching. Right now I am on an annual plan from Tivo, in case I decide to stop using it within the next 3 years.

-Netflix streaming and Amazon Unbox. The goal is to eventually have one box that can get me all of the video content I want, whether that be live TV, recorded TV, streaming TV, movies in HD, etc. Tivo is much closer to this than Moxi is. If the market shifts and TV no longer becomes the way people watch shows, I think Tivo will be more likely to have a solution than Moxi.

That said, I find the Tivo interface janky. The comcast DVR guide is much better, in that I can see multiple channels' worth of multiple-hour programming in one view, instead of 10 hours of one channel. Tivo also requires an unnecessary number of remote presses to get to where I want. There should be a VoD button on the remote, for example.

One knock on both Moxi and Tivo is the closed system they create requires you to rely on the companies for continued support. Even if you buy a lifetime subscription to Tivo, you still have to have tivo servers up and running in order to get guide updates. 

If some company built DVRs based entirely on open source plans, including software and hardware, and used open source sources of data and then also sold them at a profit I would use them. They could also sell support contracts. That way, I could hack it which ever way I pleased and use whatever external HDDs I wanted without interference, but if I also wanted the peace of mind of someone to support it I could buy the 'approved drive' and a support contract. If the company ever went belly up, the guide data would still come from a third party, and the community could still provide ad-hoc support for them. 

However, something unencumbered like that is unlikely to ever happen, due to the protection content creators want to put on what they create. It would get sued out of existence.

On a barely related side note, I wish I could pay a small monthly fee directly to content creators for a stream of their content. That way I could pay $4 to ESPN, $4 to comedy central, etc, and get just the channels I want. They could also offer a premium stream with extra cost but also no commercials.


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## bkdtv

rritterson said:


> That said, I find the Tivo interface janky. The comcast DVR guide is much better, in that I can see multiple channels' worth of multiple-hour programming in one view, instead of 10 hours of one channel. Tivo also requires an unnecessary number of remote presses to get to where I want. There should be a VoD button on the remote, for example.


You can always switch to the grid guide if you want. Press ENTER from the guide.

There are also a number of TiVo shortcuts. I'd recommend you go through the _Using TiVo_ and _TiVo Tips_ sections of the TivoHD Overview, Q&A, Setup, Tips sticky.



rritterson said:


> One knock on both Moxi and Tivo is the closed system they create requires you to rely on the companies for continued support. Even if you buy a lifetime subscription to Tivo, you still have to have tivo servers up and running in order to get guide updates.


While that's true, there is no open system for comprehensive guide data. Aside from the 8-24 hours (typical) of guide data available via PSIP from an antenna, there are no "free" sources of guide data. There are two major guide data providers --TVGuide and Tribune-- and they do not allow any commercial product or service to incorporate their data without paying license fees. [CE manufacturers can pay to use TVGOS, but this too is a proprietary data feed.]

Tribune and TVGuide both make free guide data available from their web site, but the license expressly prohibits the use of that data in commercial products. Most other web sites purchase guide data from these two companies, and the license prohibits redistribution, much like a piece of software.



rritterson said:


> If some company built DVRs based entirely on open source plans, including software and hardware, and used open source sources of data and then also sold them at a profit I would use them. They could also sell support contracts.


As alluded to above, no "open sources of guide data" exist beyond 8-24 hours (typical) available from broadcasters, whom themselves pay for that guide data. CE manufacturers that want to support digital cable must agree to a licensing agreement that effectively prohibits the use of open source. _Yes, most DVR platforms run on top of an open-source OS, but the drivers and STB/DVR software are not._



rritterson said:


> If the company ever went belly up, the guide data would still come from a third party, and the community could still provide ad-hoc support for them.


If TiVo did ever go out of business, say, eight years from now, there would undoubtedly be some company to continue the guide data service. This very thing happened when ReplayTV went out of business some years ago. ReplayTV owners continue to receive guide data, years later, regardless of whether they pay monthly/yearly or have lifetime.

It costs TiVo no more than $2/mo to provide the guide data. The rest of your subscription pays for a small part of the hardware (which is sold at a loss), support, warranty service, and all of the software, which is not figured at all into the purchase price. TiVo just barely turned a profit in FY2009, so they their cost for the hardware, software, support, and guide data is effectively your cost.

Any one of a dozen companies would jump at the chance to provide $2 worth of guide data for $12.99/mo, without any support or software updates. A company could reduce costs further if they discontinued support for phone line connections (TiVo pays for dialup Internet access) and required the use of ethernet connections. One knock on Moxi is that companies have no incentive to do the same for that service, because every customer receives a lifetime subscription as part of the $800 purchase price.


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## lrhorer

rritterson said:


> -Being compelled to pay $800 for lifetime service is not a plus, in my opinion.


The operative word there is "compelled", if you ask me. I do prefer lifetime service, but there is real value in a company providing a choice. All else bing equal, I am willing to pay a modest premium to a company which offers alternatives in pricing as well as other aspects of their products.



rritterson said:


> It takes ~3 years to breakeven on lifetime service, and I'm not sure what cable TV is going to look like in 3 years.


True, but I'm already coming up on 2 1/2 years on my first S3. What can I say? Life is a craps shoot.



rritterson said:


> With the dawn of services like Hulu, it's entirely possible that all of my TV program watching will actually become internet watching.


No, thanks. Aside from the fact the quality is unaceptable, and the selection too limited, the cost is way too high and it is far too much trouble to select content.



rritterson said:


> Right now I am on an annual plan from Tivo, in case I decide to stop using it within the next 3 years.


That's your preogative. I consider the risk too low and the resale value of the TiVo too high to not take the chance.



rritterson said:


> Netflix streaming and Amazon Unbox. The goal is to eventually have one box that can get me all of the video content I want, whether that be live TV, recorded TV, streaming TV, movies in HD, etc.


Admittedly my desires are somewhat different (I don't have goals - ever). My desire is to provide a means of providing a very wide assortment of carefully chosen content filtered from the media at my disposal without having to spend a huge amount of time wading through a massive bunch of garbage to get to it. I don't care how many boxes it requires, although a uniform means of displaying the content is a plus.



rritterson said:


> That said, I find the Tivo interface janky. The comcast DVR guide is much better, in that I can see multiple channels' worth of multiple-hour programming in one view, instead of 10 hours of one channel.


The best solution to this is not to use it all. Nothing is simpler or quicker than doing nothing at all. The guide - any giude in a decent video system - is completely unnecessary. I haven't used it even once (except for testing puproses) in nearly ten years.



rritterson said:


> Tivo also requires an unnecessary number of remote presses to get to where I want. There should be a VoD button on the remote, for example.


It's a compromise. I never, ever use VOD or the guide, and I could do for the most part without the numbers (except 0, whcih I use once every two weeks or so), the Aspect Ratio, the Tivo button, the Enter (other than for rebooting and the like), and the button (I can't recall its name at the moment) which attempts to control an external device menu, so my vote would be to remove them all. The point is, however, that adding a button for this and a button for that does make "canned" features more quickly available, but it can very quickly get out of hand, winding up with a 100 button remote.



rritterson said:


> One knock on both Moxi and Tivo is the closed system they create requires you to rely on the companies for continued support. Even if you buy a lifetime subscription to Tivo, you still have to have tivo servers up and running in order to get guide updates.


'Another compromise. It is the inevitable price of having an intelligent scheduling mechanism with program data. It has to come from somewhere, and no matter where that somewhere is, there is always the possibility it will go away completely.



rritterson said:


> On a barely related side note, I wish I could pay a small monthly fee directly to content creators for a stream of their content. That way I could pay $4 to ESPN, $4 to comedy central, etc, and get just the channels I want. They could also offer a premium stream with extra cost but also no commercials.


It's called a-la-carte subscriptions, and there is (or was, anyway) buzz in congress about forcing CATV companies to provide it. Most people won't actually benefit from a cost perspective. I do like the idea of not paying content providers when I don't care to receive their content, however, even if it does cost me more.


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## lrhorer

bkdtv said:


> It costs TiVo no more than $2/mo to provide the guide data.


Do you have a source for this? I would be rather surprised if it is the case. The rest of wht you have to say is true, but I am skeptical the cost is only $2 a month per sub, wholesale.


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## Mars Rocket

lrhorer said:


> Do you have a source for this? I would be rather surprised if it is the case. The rest of wht you have to say is true, but I am skeptical the cost is only $2 a month per sub, wholesale.


Individuals can buy licensed schedule data from Tribune Media Services via Schedules Direct for $20/year, which is only $1.67/month. This is where people using MythTV and some other DVRs get their guide data from. I'd be really surprised if TiVo were paying anywhere near that much.


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## bkdtv

lrhorer said:


> Do you have a source for this? I would be rather surprised if it is the case. The rest of wht you have to say is true, but I am skeptical the cost is only $2 a month per sub, wholesale.


The cost of Tribune guide data is definitely less than $2/mo per sub, as alluded to above. Scheduled Direct (a non-profit entity) says they offer the Tribune guide data at wholesale cost, and they charge $20/yr or $1.67/mo.

Scheduled Direct got their data hosted free, by individuals interested in their non-profit project. TiVo pay for its own servers, as well as for nationwide dial-up ISP access to support those that use a phone line.

For FY2009, TiVo's service revenues were $188.4 million and the cost of those revenues was $44.6 million (source). If you assume the average service revenue per customer is $10/mo, then TiVo's cost to provide that service is $2.36/mo.

Note the figures above do not account for TiVo's software costs.  TiVo's R&D has averaged ~$60 million per year, over the past two years.


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## hillstones

The Moxi box is a true piece of garbage. My sister has one through her cable company and it is a joke. The software and interface sucks. Trying to set a Season Pass is a PITA. Here is the where the Moxi proves how worthless it is: She can't set a season pass for any HD broadcasts. When she does, the Moxi box alleges there is a conflict with another show that is not even on the same day, the same time, or the same channel! No matter what time she chose, it always alleged a conflict and would not set the season pass.


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## teeitup

I recently emailed Moxi asking about clear QAM channel mapping, future "video on demand" services, and Moxi mate. This was the reply:

*Dear --------,

Thanks for your interest in Moxi. We received your email with your question and are happy to help.

The Moxi HD DVR is the best HD DVR on the planet because of its Emmy award-winning interface and its suite of online networking and multimedia home entertainment capabilities. Its also the only HD DVR with no monthly fees. (check out our website  moxi.com  for full details).

The Moxi is optimized for use with a Digital Cable subscription and doesnt support an over-the-air antenna. But if I understand your configuration, you will have a combination of analog channels via your basic cable subscription and HD channels which are transmitted without encryption that dont require a CableCard to access. The Moxi will work in this configuration. However, for the support of analog cable channels, you would need to an accessory that we provide at no charge except for the shipping which is an analog dongle that plugs into the USB port on the Moxi HD DVR. Using this, you will have full DVR support, as well as the other features that the Moxi HD DVR provides, but would only be able to record a single show at time. The HD channels that are sent in the clear, would be discovered by the Moxi automatically and be available at any time and you would have the capability to record two shows at a time.

Regarding your question as to supporting Netflix streaming on the Moxi, we expect to add this type of feature in the VERY near future. And heres some really great news: when we do add features like this, your unit will update automatically, without your having to actually do anything. You can expect to turn on your TV from time to time and find new features waiting for you, at no additional charge or upgrade fee. Please stay tuned  and don't hesitate to check back with us or on Moxi.com for the "latest and greatest" updates and features.

We plan to introduce multi-room HD DVR functionality this year; soon you will be able to use your Moxi for multi-room viewing. While your Moxi HD DVR does not yet have the multi-room functionality, the great news is that when we release this new product, the corresponding software upgrade to your main DVR will occur automatically and at no cost!

In other words, if you decide to purchase a Moxi HD DVR today, you can start enjoying the optimized HD features  including integration with your entertainment system and internet NOW  and your Moxi will automatically receive multi-room capability (and lots of other cool new upcoming features) at NO EXTRA CHARGE. Enjoy the Moxi experience now and get the upgrades as soon as theyre available, automatically, without paying a dime more. Combine this with the stunning Emmy award winning user interface, and its an amazing value. Oh and by the way, there are NO monthly fees!

We are available to answer any additional questions you might have and please remember that the Moxi HD DVR has a 30 day money back guarantee.

Again, thanks for your interest and we look forward to you joining the Moxi family.

Best regards,

The Moxi team

*


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## ZeoTiVo

teeitup said:


> It's also the only HD DVR with no monthly fees. (check out our website - moxi.com - for full details).


 and this is still a big fat lie TiVo HD for 700$ at retail with lifetime or 800$ with the Moxi. hmmm...



> The Moxi is optimized for use with a Digital Cable subscription and doesn't support an over-the-air antenna.
> 
> However, for the support of analog cable channels, you would need to an accessory that we provide at no charge except for the shipping which is an analog dongle that plugs into the USB port on the Moxi HD DVR. Using this, you will have full DVR support, as well as the other features that the Moxi HD DVR provides, but would only be able to record a single show at time.


 more money and no OTA and just one analog at a time. So either your cable is all digital or multicast or the not having to use cable cards is not that big a break.



> Regarding your question as to supporting Netflix streaming on the Moxi, we expect to add this *type of* feature in the VERY near future.


 watch the fine choice of words. TiVo is barely in a spot to get Netflix or Blockbuster interested. How will Moxi fare at getting good content.



> interface, and it's an amazing value. Oh and by the way, there are NO monthly fees!


 You know if they got off that nonsense I would probably just pass threads on them by. But they have no MRV yet along with everything above, lifetime with them is 100$ more than lifetime on a TiVo HD and they still tout this great value and no monthly fees. 

the standalone DVR market needs some good competitive action to generate interest and better product for consumers. how sad is it that we need to rely on DISH for better, more honest marketing.


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## teeitup

ZeoTiVo said:


> and this is still a big fat lie TiVo HD for 700$ at retail with lifetime or 800$ with the Moxi. hmmm...


$700 for 180GB Tivo HD, or $800 for 500GB Moxi. Personally I pay the extra $100 and go with the Moxi.

Moxi may not be for everyone, but the *number one* reason I will probably buy a Moxi is clear QAM channel mapping which Tivo does not seem interested in supporting. I have limited cable which passes a number of digital SD and HD channels unecrypted.....many more than the analog channels included with limited cable. This will save me $$$ (-$30/month digital package, -$15/month HD DVR) by not using the cable co's DVR. Renting a cable card ties me into subscribing to a digital cable package. So the ability to manually map all those digital channels in the EPG is a must. The Moxi is perfect for my situation, and I believe it will be a competitor to Tivo for cable users requiring channel mapping.:up:


----------



## davezatz

teeitup said:


> Renting a cable card ties me into subscribing to a digital cable package.


That is not universally true. For a year or so, I had two CableCARDs and did NOT pay for a higher tier 'digital package'. But I had the benefit of a guide and channels placed where their should be. In fact, I think I only pay $45/mo now for television services and zero to rent my 3 cards. (Comcast, Montgomery County, MD)

Update: Just checked my bill (well, it's all in Melissa's name) and we pay $45 for basic and preferred, plus $0 for the CableCARDs. No QAM mapping, no 'digital tier', but we get the digital channels.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Not to mention that on many providers the entry-level digital tier costs the same as the old analog expanded basic tier anyway, so it's not like it costs you more money to get a CC.

Other than the must-carry local channels, all of those 'in the clear' QAM channels are never guaranteed to be there with a limited sub.


----------



## fallingwater

First impressions:

Most interestingly the analog tuning dongle is a WinTV-HVR-1950 without a remote, IR blaster, or installation CD. I'm not sure how Moxi controls it; it's connected only by a USB cable. Perhaps the Moxi version is restricted to analog reception. I picked up a WinTV remote cheap on eBay to see if the HVR-1950 has unrealized capabilities with Moxi. As of yet I haven't been able to test anything.
http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hvr1950.html

Moxi shipped fast; I received both the DVR and dongle last Friday. The Moxi box was nicely packed using recyclable paper, not styrofoam, for box filler.

Moxi doesn't provide a paper User Guide; only a Quick Start Guide; the User Guide is only available as a download from their website. I printed it out but as it's almost 100 pages, 17 of which are solid color covers and Section Intro pages, it almost used up a whole ink cartriage. Moxi should have included a nice glossy Guide ala TiVo or at least cut down the color ink waste. :down::down::down:
http://moxi.com/support_docs.jsp

Out of the box the first problem I encountered was that connecting via HDMI through a DMI Adapter consistently brings up an 'Invalid Mode' screen regardless of resolution selected. I haven't yet explored if there's a workaround; instead have Moxi connected using a Component cable with a Composite connection to a DVD recorder.

Navigating Moxi's Menu's was strange at first and wasn't intuitive. Now that I'm getting the hang of it it's OK. Setup was straightforward and took about an hour. Channel mapping is set up from the user's account on the Moxi website. Manual channel mapping for unscrambled QAM isn't a big hassle but a QAM channel can only be mapped to an analog channel's EPG info in the specific lineup, unlike TVGOS which offers more options. More on channel mapping later.

Moxi doesn't appear glitchy but it's way too soon to know. It utilizes some remote control commands similiar to Moto's cable box, not as simply intuitive as other DVRs; TiVo, ReplayTV and even Sony. The remote itself is OK; it's black, reminescent of TiVo's P-nut, but different. It's backlit (which can be turned off) and had codes to control both my TV and outboard sound.

Moxi's box is relatively featureless and black, somewhat reminescent of 240 S2. It's about the size of a standard Moto STB, a couple of inches less deep (front to back) than most DVRs. It has small rudimentary navigation buttons on the right and a front USB port in the lower middle and reset button on the left. Until I learned how to turn it off it 'featured' a big blue LED *MOXI* in the middle. I also turned off Moxi's bings, same as I've turned off TiVo's bongs.

That's it so far. Later...


----------



## mattack

slowbiscuit said:


> Not to mention that on many providers the entry-level digital tier costs the same as the old analog expanded basic tier anyway, so it's not like it costs you more money to get a CC.


Unless you have multiple Tivos (extra CC(s) plus likely 'extra outlet' fee).

The (analog) 'cable ready tuner' is/was a great thing..


----------



## mattack

fallingwater said:


> Moxi doesn't provide a paper User Guide; only a Quick Start Guide; the User Guide is only available as a download from their website. I printed it out but as it's almost 100 pages, 17 of which are solid color covers and Section Intro pages, it almost used up a whole ink cartriage. Moxi should have included a nice glossy Guide ala TiVo or at least cut down the color ink waste. :down::down::down:
> http://moxi.com/support_docs.jsp


It's not like you *had* to print it out... or even at normal size.. If you printed it 2:1 or 4:1, you'd use that many fewer pages/less ink.


----------



## Scyber

Moxi just announced there latest update:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/04/09/moxis-spring-updates-brings-playon-dlna-and-a-little-home-auto/

DLNA support and bundled PlayOn software are just some of the nice updates.


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## slowbiscuit

Nice. Adding PlayOn means access to Hulu, Netflix, YouTube and lots of other internet video sites. Basically this can replace OnDemand with one box (and a PC). C'mon Tivo, step up to the competition! I want Hulu on the TivoHD. 

Now if Digeo could just lower the price a couple of hundred...


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## davezatz

slowbiscuit said:


> Nice. Adding PlayOn means access to Hulu, Netflix, YouTube and lots of other internet video sites. Basically this can replace OnDemand with one box (and a PC). C'mon Tivo, step up to the competition! I want Hulu on the TivoHD.
> 
> Now if Digeo could just lower the price a couple of hundred...


This will only hasten Hulu blocking PlayOn. And if you've ever used PlayOn, I would say the experience does NOT replace OnDemand. It's a kludge. And requires a running PC.

FYI Neither Engadget nor I have yet to receive review units. Supposedly we're closer. No idea what they're waiting on.


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## davezatz

Finally got myself a review unit... Unfortunately, I'm leaving Tuesday for an 8 day work trip so it may be a little while before I do anything comprehensive. But let me know what you want to know. 15 pics here: http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-04/moxi-hd-dvr-in-the-flesh/


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## ZeoTiVo

Good to see Digeo back to coming up with a DVR that competes based on features.  Here is hoping it gets TiVo to figure out how to add HULU.

When you get a chance Dave - have the MOXI record two high resolution HD channels at the same time and see how it handles dealing with some serious bits being thrown at it.


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## bkdtv

dave,

Do you know whether the Moxi interface is still based on Flash? I know the original Moxi UI was built on Flash, and they had to use PC-based hardware to run it. The latest Broadcom BCM7400 and BCM7405 SoCs support Adobe Flash natively.


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## davezatz

bkdtv said:


> Do you know whether the Moxi interface is still based on Flash? I know the original Moxi UI was built on Flash, and they had to use PC-based hardware to run it. The latest Broadcom BCM7400 and BCM7405 SoCs support Adobe Flash natively.


I'll check with my contacts, we're supposed to sync up the middle of next week. Do we already know what chip this uses? If not, maybe I'll pop it open this weekend and take pics for you. Tell me what you need.



ZeoTiVo said:


> When you get a chance Dave - have the MOXI record two high resolution HD channels at the same time and see how it handles dealing with some serious bits being thrown at it.


Will do. Most of my testing will be after my work trip which is when I'll move the Moxi to the bedroom where we actually watch most of our timeshifted TV.


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## clark_kent

@davezatz

I like keeping the number of external boxes at a minimum. Which is why I have a 1TB inside my TiVoHD. With 1.5TB and 2TB coming to market, I'd be interested in knowing if we're going to be able to mod the disk size in the MOXI on our own.

Thanks.


----------



## bkdtv

davezatz said:


> I'll check with my contacts, we're supposed to sync up the middle of next week. Do we already know what chip this uses? If not, maybe I'll pop it open this weekend and take pics for you. Tell me what you need.


According to the previous version of their web site, the Moxi is "powered by a Broadcom 930 DMIPS dual-threaded MIPS32 processor." There are no Broadcom SoCs that match this spec exactly, but it most closely resembles the BCM7400, which Broadcom claims to provide 1000 DMIPS @ 350MHz. If you can easily open the unit, you may want to confirm.

If the unit does use a BCM7400, you might ask Moxi whether it plans to use the dual-decoder functionality of that chip to support PIP with a future software update. This is one of the advertised benefits of that SoC.

Before it was changed, the Moxi web site also specified 256MB RAM and 32MB flash. That suggests the software is stored on flash, much like the DirecTV and Dish Network receivers. If you have a 1.0-1.5 TB drive lying around, you might consider swapping the drives to see whether the Moxi will accept the larger drive and recognize that capacity.

_Edit: As an aside, I'm curious whether the new Moxi supports dual-buffers like the TiVo. The last Moxi I used did not._


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## fallingwater

fallingwater said:


> Moxi doesn't provide a paper User Guide; only a Quick Start Guide; the User Guide is only available as a download from their website. I printed it out but as it's almost 100 pages, 17 of which are solid color covers and Section Intro pages, it almost used up a whole ink cartriage. Moxi should have included a nice glossy Guide ala TiVo or at least cut down the color ink waste. :down::down::down:
> http://moxi.com/support_docs.jsp
> 
> Out of the box the first problem I encountered was that connecting via HDMI through a DMI Adapter consistently brings up an 'Invalid Mode' screen regardless of resolution selected. I haven't yet explored if there's a workaround; instead have Moxi connected using a Component cable with a Composite connection to a DVD recorder.





mattack said:


> It's not like you *had* to print it out... or even at normal size.. If you printed it 2:1 or 4:1, you'd use that many fewer pages/less ink.


I don't know about printing at 2:1 or 4:1; I don't want a tiny _User Guide_, I want an easy to read one. TiVo's _Viewer's Guides_ are well written and classy looking; Moxi's _User Guide_ needs improvement both in presentation and information.

I posted more about Moxi at AVS HDTV recorders Forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16250339#post16250339

An exchange of emails with Moxi:

Re: Follow-up to Trouble Ticket Number 1668 email
Saturday, April 11, 2009 11:55 AM
From: (fallingwater) 
To: "CustomerCare" <[email protected]>

_Hi Moxi team;

FYI, after reviewing the resolution settings for Moxi, both 1080i and non-HD (480i) were enabled. Even though the actual signal being sent to the monitor was hi-def the 480i setting apparently caused the 'Invalid Mode' display which blocked using the HDMI/DVI connection. I disabled 480i which allowed using the HDMI/DVI connection.

I have a DVD recorder connected to Moxi. Apparently the only way to provide a signal the DVD recorder recognizes is to switch Moxi's output to 480i which of course disables HDMI/DVI. I ended up staying with a Component connection for the monitor, as it allows hi-def to the monitor or standard-def to the DVD recorder without switching, depending on Moxi's input signal.---

*If settings of a recording from the analog dongle are changed while the recording is ongoing Moxi consistently freezes and reboots. At first I thought this glitch was going to be a deal-breaker, but as the workaround is not to modify the settings until the recording is over the only thing apparently lost is the ability to extend a recording on the fly. 'Keep until' can be extended after a recording is finished. The problem doesn't exist when recording from the digital tuners.

Hopefully you'll be able to duplicate the problem (it's consistent and repeatable) and make a software revision. It may be a deal-breaker for some and in any case is a significant flaw.*
---

Moxi's User Manual states "...you can connect one external hard drive at a time..." for increasing storage capacity. What happens to completed recordings when an external hard drive is removed? Are some still available? If the hard drive is reconnected are missing recordings available again? Can multiple external hard drives be used one at a time to create a growing library of recordings instead of using DVDs? When swapping hard drives what, if anything, is lost?

FYI, the remote code used by Moxi is extremely difficult to capture on a learning universal remote. I suceeded in transferring all of Moxi's commands to a URC MX-500 only by using an old Marantz RC-2000MKII as intermediary to learn commands which were then resent to MX-500.

After a brief steep learning curve I'm enjoying Moxi. The User Manual could stand some expansion and clarifications. (For instance 'back' and 'next's 15 min. jump capabilities in the buffer and recordings aren't mentioned.)

I hope my comments and questions are useful for you.

Regards, fallingwater _

--- On Wed, 4/8/09, CustomerCare <[email protected]> wrote:

From: CustomerCare <[email protected]>
Subject: Unable to View Picture Using HDMI to DVI Video Cable (Trouble Ticket Number 1668)
To: fallingwater
Cc: "CustomerCare" <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 6:04 PM

_Hello (fallingwater),

In regards to our discussion we had earlier today regarding your Moxi box being unable to display channels via a HDMI to DVI video cable, the problem is due to the TV itself. The best thing we suggest is just to continue using the component video cable youre currently using. I sincerely wish I could tell you that we have a fix, but that would only make me a liar. J

Were currently in the works of implementing within Moxi.com a much more functional and user friendly Moxi Support Request webpage. Please look forward to this change happening very soon.

I escalated your feedback regarding the User Guide to my manager. She let me know that there have been on-going discussions regarding whether or not to include copies of the User Guide in the packaging, and will be providing your feedback to the product team for consideration. She will also be passing on your suggestion of having a black and white copy available for printing off the website as well.

Thank you for your feedback, and we hope you are enjoying your Moxi experience.

Regards,

Moxi Customer Support_


----------



## fallingwater

bkdtv said:


> _Edit: As an aside, I'm curious whether the new Moxi supports dual-buffers like the TiVo. The last Moxi I used did not._


I finally got back and replied to bkdtv's PM:

_Originally Posted by bkdtv 
Can you tell me whether the Moxi buffers both tuners? Said differently, If you pause one channel, switch to another, and then switch back...will the first channel still be paused?

I know older Moxis did not buffer both tuners, but I'm curious whether that has changed with the latest hardware/software._

---

Sorry for the delay in replying; I've been away from TiVo Forums for a few days.

The answer to your question is interesting; literally, yes and no!

Moxi buffers both tuners but a tuner doesn't stay paused when Moxi switches to the other tuner; it returns to live. Either tuner when playing can be rewound to the beginning of its buffer. Of course the beginning of a buffer moves forward at realtime whenever it's full.

Buffer lengths vary with program material; I've not yet had time to explore buffer length based on hi-def vs. standard-def or variations between different programs within each format but a standard-def buffer appears to roughly extend about an hour.


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## fallingwater

ZeoTiVo said:


> Good to see Digeo back to coming up with a DVR that competes based on features.  Here is hoping it gets TiVo to figure out how to add HULU.
> 
> When you get a chance Dave - have the MOXI record two high resolution HD channels at the same time and see how it handles dealing with some serious bits being thrown at it.


Here's Moxi's current offer, pretty neat! Unfortunately neither of my old PCs has the bits to handle it.

*PlayOn License Key Promotion*
Hurry! Moxi is currently offering its existing and new Moxi HD DVR customers a FREE, full-use, non-trial license key for PlayOn software from MediaMall Technologies (MMT)a $39.99 value!
http://moxi.com/us/play_on.html


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## fallingwater

fallingwater said:


> Here's Moxi's current offer, pretty neat! Unfortunately neither of my old PCs has the bits to handle it.
> 
> *PlayOn License Key Promotion*
> Hurry! Moxi is currently offering its existing and new Moxi HD DVR customers a FREE, full-use, non-trial license key for PlayOn software from MediaMall Technologies (MMT)a $39.99 value!
> http://moxi.com/us/play_on.html


I discovered my PC's' RAM shortcomings after downloading the PlayOn software. Today I received an email from Moxi with the license key. I called Moxi support and asked how long the license key would be good for. I just received the following email:

_*PlayOn license question (ticket 001703)
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:59 AM
From: "CustomerCare" <[email protected]> 
To: (fallingwater)

Thank you for your inquiry. The PlayOn licenses we provide have no expiration date.

Please let us know if there is anything else we can do for you regarding this particular issue.

Thanks for choosing Moxi,

Moxi Customer Care*_

---
While on the phone I checked to see that they received the email quoted in post #147, to which I haven't yet received a reply. (They did and promised I will!) I asked how their system for linking an external HDD works; whether it is more like TiVo's 'HDD marriage until divorce' or Echostar's 'HDD serial partnership'.

At this point I was informally told that any number of external HDDs, while registered to only one Moxi recorder, can be swapped in-and-out one-at-a-time to enable unlimited storage on that Moxi. As stated above, I was promised a definitive follow-up email.


----------



## xboard07

The demo videos on the Moxi site are very nice. The GUI has it all over Tivo. Being able to pretty much do anything while still watching a program is nice. Tivo needs a major GUI refresh and let me schedule a Season Pass or view my Recorded Programs list while still watching something.


----------



## bareyb

xboard07 said:


> The demo videos on the Moxi site are very nice. The GUI has it all over Tivo. Being able to pretty much do anything while still watching a program is nice. Tivo needs a major GUI refresh and let me schedule a Season Pass or view my Recorded Programs list while still watching something.


Yeah, I didn't think I cared about that, but now that TiVo has made it possible to bring up the guide without leaving the show, I use it constantly to check my SP's and make sure things are going to record as planned. It's wonderful. I can't wait to be able to do all the rest of it without leaving the shows too.

I "think" TiVo has a new GUI coming out that allows for more of that, and it will be quite cool when they do.


----------



## ciper

bareyb said:


> I "think" TiVo has a new GUI coming out that allows for more of that, and it will be quite cool when they do.


You should post a link to those videos. I'm sure some of the people here would be interested to see the new layout. I can't remember which blog I saw it on (perhaps engadget?)


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## bareyb

ciper said:


> You should post a link to those videos. I'm sure some of the people here would be interested to see the new layout. I can't remember which blog I saw it on (perhaps engadget?)


I think we must have seen the same post with the pics in it. I don't remember where it was either, but I bet someone will come along who does. It looked pretty slick.


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## teeitup

ciper said:


> You should post a link to those videos. I'm sure some of the people here would be interested to see the new layout. I can't remember which blog I saw it on (perhaps engadget?)


MOXI's website has the videos:

moxi.com/us/features.html


----------



## bareyb

teeitup said:


> MOXI's website has the videos:


We were talking about the pics of TiVo's proposed new interface. It's amazing. If you like MOXI you will LOVE this. You should check it out. They are around here somewhere.


----------



## mattack

bareyb said:


> Yeah, I didn't think I cared about that, but now that TiVo has made it possible to bring up the guide without leaving the show, I use it constantly to check my SP's and make sure things are going to record as planned.


I admit I use the guide now once in a while (still far more than I used to).. but do you mean you:

1) hit guide button while watching a recorded show
2) scroll around a bunch to find a specific show
3) go into season pass or other options
4) view upcoming
5) confirm that the episodes are recording
6) back out
????

If not, I'm not sure what you mean. That's *sort* of what I do, but from the To Do list or possibly the "not to do" (recording history in the future) list.. which seems to me a bit more convenient than finding things in the guide.


----------



## bareyb

mattack said:


> I admit I use the guide now once in a while (still far more than I used to).. but do you mean you:
> 
> 1) hit guide button while watching a recorded show
> 2) scroll around a bunch to find a specific show
> 3) go into season pass or other options
> 4) view upcoming
> 5) confirm that the episodes are recording
> 6) back out
> ????
> 
> If not, I'm not sure what you mean. That's *sort* of what I do, but from the To Do list or possibly the "not to do" (recording history in the future) list.. which seems to me a bit more convenient than finding things in the guide.


 Not sure what you are asking me...

Are you asking me how I use the live guide to check my SP's and make sure they are going to record?

If so, then all I do is click over to the guide while I'm watching something else and simply click on the shows I want to see that night. Most of my stuff is on the major networks so they are all grouped together. If they are set to record it will bring up a message that says "record as planned". Then I go onto the next network etc. It's a way to check out your To-Do's without having to to hit "TiVo-2" (Todo list) which takes you out of the program you are watching. If I'm not sure of anything then I can always use the To-Do list (and history), but I don't like to bother with that when I'm watching something. When TiVo comes out with the new GUI this won't be necessary, but it's a work around for now.


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## johnny99

Moxi initial impressions on Engadget:
http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/04/21/moxi-hd-dvr-initial-impressions/


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## mattack

bareyb said:


> Not sure what you are asking me...


oh ok, I didn't realize you meant you did it daily for 'that night'. (Seems like checking the to do list is easier/more convenient to me..)


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## bareyb

mattack said:


> oh ok, I didn't realize you meant you did it daily for 'that night'. (Seems like checking the to do list is easier/more convenient to me..)


Ah gotcha. I use the TDL too. The guide is so handy now, it makes it easy to just do a quickie check on my favorite shows to make sure they are going to be recorded that night without having to leave the show I'm watching.


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## johnny99

If the $800 up front cost of Moxi is too much for you, they now have a $40/month plan (for 20 months). That's like a no-interest loan, and it also protects you if the company goes out of business before the 20 months is up.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-04/digeo-to-unveil-moxi-payment-plans/


----------



## bareyb

johnny99 said:


> Moxi initial impressions on Engadget:
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/04/21/moxi-hd-dvr-initial-impressions/


That thing sounds like it's a mess at this stage. Way too many features missing. It has a lot of _good_ about it too though. Anyone know when TiVo will release the much rumored GUI overhaul?


----------



## solutionsetc

bareyb said:


> That thing sounds like it's a mess at this stage. Way too many features missing. It has a lot of _good_ about it too though. Anyone know when TiVo will release the much rumored GUI overhaul?


Good question! I am new to my Tivo Hds and was a bit surprised to see the same low def interface of 6-7 years ago for a product with "HD" in its name. Where can these "rumors" be found?


----------



## lrhorer

bareyb said:


> That thing sounds like it's a mess at this stage. Way too many features missing. It has a lot of _good_ about it too though. Anyone know when TiVo will release the much rumored GUI overhaul?


'Hopefully never. From what I have seen of the proposed interfaces, they are stupid in the extreme. Making something far worse isn't a positive thing just because it is new. 'Not that I ever use the UI, but if they come up with a 50 line, 80 character wide display thst doesn't pop up over any video, I'm all there. Anything popping up over the video is almost completely useless. If any program is so boring as to be accessible to doing something else while watching it, then I'm not going to watch it in the first place. There are too many good things available to watch anything whihc I woud consider interrupting. While I am watching a program, I want nothing, *NOTHING* to interfere with it, either audio or video. I am even annoyed by the station IDs some channels insist on overlaying the video. When I want to do something else, like select recordings (although this is rather rare), then I'll do that. When I want to listen to music, I listen to music. When I want to watch a program, I watch a program. Trying to do two things at once merely increases stress and degrades the quality of both experiences. The absolute worst and most annoying feature of my Hitachi 62" DLP is Picture in Picture. When I was constrained to use the Hirtachi's remote, I frequently accidentally brought up the PIP, whereupon I had a sudden violent urge to torture the idiot engineer who incorported this vomitous feature into the TV slowly to death. After getting up (much more difficult for a partial quadruplegic than an average guy), turning on the light, and fiddling with the remote for 30 seconds or more, I would finally be able to dismiss the odious interuption, turn off the light, and sit back down. Thank gawd the Series III remote can't accidentally trigger this feature on the set, but the "Guide" button is quite annoying. I would be deliriously happy if Tivo would disable it, or at least move it somewhere where it can't be accidentally pressed when trying to hit the "Info" key. I haven't deliberately used the "Guide" key even once in over 9 years, but I use the "Info" key several times a sitting.


----------



## riz

johnny99 said:


> If the $800 up front cost of Moxi is too much for you, they now have a $40/month plan (for 20 months). That's like a no-interest loan, and it also protects you if the company goes out of business before the 20 months is up.
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-04/digeo-to-unveil-moxi-payment-plans/


Interesting! I just bought my first Tivo in Jan of this year, paid the $129 so I am good to go with Tivo for at least 9 months but all bets are off in Jan 2010 it would seem!

I do want Tivo to make a true hd interface and something like the beta ui that we have all seen. They really need to get this out (for me) by Jan 2010 or I may likely like to check out moxi for the 40 a month plan. I find that to be a pretty good deal considering the no interest and as as eluded to, if they go under, my payments will cease and desist!

I really like Tivo's functionality but Tivo overall certainly isn't all that *next gen* feeling (to me) so as far as I'm concerned, Tivo has 9 months debut their new UI or Moxi may have a shot at my dvr dollar!


----------



## daveak

Amazing, how only in the last 6-7 months, TiVo has added so many online features. Now it looks like the smaller capacity TiVo HD is being unloaded (at least it is now an even better deal). And wasn't this the year for a Series 4?

Maybe we should be looking for it by the end of summer, have to have it by the next TV season, eh? All this new stuff added in the last several months, a new (official) drive, the new Tivo Search, etc... All 'tested' on our boxes, all the kinks (albeit slowly in some cases) being worked out. Could it be the stage is being set for a new TiVo box?

I think the Series 4 (or whatever they will call it) will be quite the box. Moxi just might be able to compete (my opinion is Tivo wins) with the Series 3 architecture, but I think they will not have a chance against the much rumored Series 4.

TiVo seems to be the top end when it comes to DVRs, and I do not expect they will lose this position.


----------



## solutionsetc

riz said:


> Tivo overall certainly isn't all that *next gen* feeling (to me)


Agreed, but a shiny new interface on a new platform is not much of an enticement to me if the features are not there. I mainly went with Tivo for MRV and the ability to archive/burn with computer. Plus, I like the fact that it is a mature platform with lots of options other than what is just put out by TiVo.

And the Moxi track record doesn't have me feeling confident this stuff will be coming (and actually work) anytime soon if at all.


----------



## xboard07

daveak said:


> Amazing, how only in the last 6-7 months, TiVo has added so many online features. Now it looks like the smaller capacity TiVo HD is being unloaded (at least it is now an even better deal). And wasn't this the year for a Series 4?
> 
> Maybe we should be looking for it by the end of summer, have to have it by the next TV season, eh? All this new stuff added in the last several months, a new (official) drive, the new Tivo Search, etc... All 'tested' on our boxes, all the kinks (albeit slowly in some cases) being worked out. Could it be the stage is being set for a new TiVo box?
> 
> I think the Series 4 (or whatever they will call it) will be quite the box. Moxi just might be able to compete (my opinion is Tivo wins) with the Series 3 architecture, but I think they will not have a chance against the much rumored Series 4.
> 
> TiVo seems to be the top end when it comes to DVRs, and I do not expect they will lose this position.


then they better update their tired old GUI, looks like crap compared to Moxi


----------



## daveak

I am sure they will update their tired old GUI... But maybe only on the Series 4? They have had a couple of years to do this, maybe someone can guess a reason they have not? Slow Processor? Do not want to spend the money? Waiting to put it on the next new box?


----------



## AbMagFab

daveak said:


> I am sure they will update their tired old GUI... But maybe only on the Series 4? They have had a couple of years to do this, maybe someone can guess a reason they have not? Slow Processor? Do not want to spend the money? Waiting to put it on the next new box?


Because it's incredibly usable and simply works?

Usability trumps everything. Looks don't matter much at all (beyond a certain point).


----------



## solutionsetc

AbMagFab said:


> Because it's incredibly usable and simply works?
> 
> Usability trumps everything.


Agreed, but I don't find the current interface "incredibly usable" (far too many button presses and heirarchies required for simple things).

A new GUI isn't just about building it. While the current interface is far from perfect, it is clear a lot of thought went into it. Changing things risks pissing a lot of users off, so they need a lot of testing and feedback to decide what folks will like and dislike. Much of this has been done in the last Tivo search beta cycle.

And I don't think it is about processor power as the current GUI uses a lot of cycles for pretty senseless glitz. It already has the power to do overlays over HD video with little to no performance issues.

Plus, having to pump out (and maintain) two sets of interfaces to different boxes is certainly not in their best interest from a resources standpoint.

I think we will see something soon... and I think it be available for most, if not all, hardware.


----------



## bkdtv

solutionsetc said:


> Agreed, but I don't find the current interface "incredibly usable" (far too many button presses and heirarchies required for simple things).


There are a number of shortcuts to speed navigation and/or avoid heirarchies altogether, as noted in my signature links. As an example, you can just press "play" to play a recording from the recorded list. You can press "clear" to delete a recording or remove it from the To Do List. You can press -->| to jump to the top/bottom of a list.

Personally, I like the TiVo navigation just as it is, except I would like to see higher-resolution text and images, with the extra screen real estate used to present relevant information on the screen. I shouldn't need to press INFO to see the guest actors, for example. When searching on a program, or selecting it from Season Pass Manager, I would also like to see an extra frame that lists upcoming new episodes and/or a list of upcoming episodes that will be recorded.

I would also like to see the *option* of a picture window in the menus that shows the current liveTV channel *if and only if* I am watching liveTV and/or the current recorded program *if and only if* I am watching a recording.


----------



## solutionsetc

I believe I am familiar with all of the shortcuts, but most of them require returning to Tivo central. And as you already mention, not seeing episode info in the todo and now playing lists (like you do in the guide) is an oversight.

Having to OK a recording confirmation is also silly... as it is already confirmed. Just tell me so for a second or two and dismiss it. Why have me push yet another button.

Why not subscribe to the cell phone way of entering characters (A=2 C=2,2,2) in addition to having to make all those button pushes to move the cursor around a character grid?

Let me skip ahead 3 minutes by pushing 3-advance, and 7 minutes by pushing 7-advance.

There are many places navigation can be made less button pushy.


----------



## bareyb

Personally, I'm pretty happy with the current GUI too. All I need to be "happier" would be to be 

1. The ability to do most functions (To-do list, Season Pass setup, etc.) while watching a program as they have with the Guide.

2. Four Tuners

3. A useable way to organize Season Passes that doesn't tie up the TV for so long. 

Beyond that, I'm pretty happy. MRV works well, Amazon Unbox works well, and the "Online Features" in general are decent for the amount I use them. If they could come up with an easier to way to view my Home Movies and Photos on TiVo without having to use 3rd party software solutions and websites, I could say it would be just about perfect for my needs.


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## mattack

lrhorer said:


> The absolute worst and most annoying feature of my Hitachi 62" DLP is Picture in Picture.


Says you. I originally thought PIP would be a 'useless' feature, but now I wouldn't buy a TV without it. I use it *all the time*. (OK, admittedly, I think nowadays mostly I use the PIP built into my XS32 recorder, not the TV's PIP.. but I still use the TV's PIP once in a while.. and the general feeling is the same.)


----------



## mattack

Hmm, on s3/tivohd, reorganizing season passes is *fast*. (I'm comparing it to the s1).


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## bareyb

mattack said:


> Hmm, on s3/tivohd, reorganizing season passes is *fast*. (I'm comparing it to the s1).


I have an Series 3 and it is NOT fast. Fast would be a few seconds, like everything else takes. I have over 100 SP's and to change priorities takes a good 5 minutes for each change. Granted not the TEN it used to take, but it still makes it a hassle to organize things the way I'd like to.


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## ciper

bareyb said:


> We were talking about the pics of TiVo's proposed new interface. It's amazing. If you like MOXI you will LOVE this. You should check it out. They are around here somewhere.


He is right. The *TiVo* interface we saw was rumored to be what the current 11.x software update was.


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## bareyb

ciper said:


> He is right. The *TiVo* interface we saw was rumored to be what the current 11.x software update was.


Huh?


----------



## ciper

bareyb said:


> Huh?


So the recent beta, which was testing the current version 11 software, had a goofy name. I can't remember the name at the moment but lets say it was "RedHawk"

Most of the stories that showed those videos said they were "RedHawk" and our TiVo's would be running that interface right now.


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## bareyb

ciper said:


> So the recent beta, which was testing the current version 11 software, had a goofy name. I can't remember the name at the moment but lets say it was "RedHawk"
> 
> Most of the stories that showed those videos said they were "RedHawk" and our TiVo's would be running that interface right now.


Oh got it. Yeah. I think I remember hearing that too. I wish...


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

bareyb said:


> 2. Four Tuners


You have this already. It just takes two boxes.

I have 2x DirecTiVos in the family room. Helps preserve peace in the household.


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## fallingwater

fallingwater said:


> (From an email to Moxi):
> 
> *If settings of a recording from the analog dongle are changed while the recording is ongoing Moxi consistently freezes and reboots. At first I thought this glitch was going to be a deal-breaker, but as the workaround is not to modify the settings until the recording is over the only thing apparently lost is the ability to extend a recording on the fly. 'Keep until' can be extended after a recording is finished. The problem doesn't exist when recording from the digital tuners.
> 
> Hopefully you'll be able to duplicate the problem (it's consistent and repeatable) and make a software revision. It may be a deal-breaker for some and in any case is a significant flaw.*


Within the past week-and-a-half Moxi released a software update that eliminated the freeze/reboot problem when recording from the dongle.


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## fallingwater

fallingwater said:


> While on the phone (to Moxi Support)...I asked how their system for linking an external HDD works; whether it is more like TiVo's 'HDD marriage until divorce' or Echostar's 'HDD serial partnership'.
> 
> At this point I was informally told that any number of external HDDs, while registered to only one Moxi recorder, can be swapped in-and-out one-at-a-time to enable unlimited storage on that Moxi. As stated above, I was promised a definitive follow-up email.


I received this email from Moxi Support:

Re: Follow-up to Trouble Ticket Number 1705 resolution
Monday, April 20, 2009 10:50 AM
From: "CustomerCare" <[email protected]> 
To: (fallingwater)

We did confirm that you can use as many External Hard Drives as you want to, however of course you can only use one at a time. Be sure you always disconnect by going into the Moxi menu -> settings -> external hard drive and disconnect the drive properly.

Regards,

Moxi Customer Care


----------



## bkdtv

_Repost from Things that Moxi has that TiVoi DVR should pick up and do thread..._

*Moxi Advantages*


Being a newer product, the hardware is based on newer technology (i.e. faster DVR CPU)

In of itself, this means little. But Moxi developers have more CPU cycles and memory bandwidth to work with when adding new features.

16:9 HD menus (as opposed to a 4:3 menus on a 16:9 HD background)

The Moxi UI has crisper, sharper text and graphics in the menus. In some cases, it takes advantage of the 16:9 aspect ratio to show more information on the screen.

No advertising whatsoever in the UI.

 *Fast* guide scrolling / scanning.

1.5 hour HD buffer *per tuner* (compared to 30 minutes for TiVo)

Can record *three* cable channels at the same time (two digital, one analog) when the free WinTV-HVR-1950 USB tuner is connected.

Moxi is looking into the possibility of supporting triple-tuner functionality on digital channels using the WinTV-HVR-1950 USB tuner.

Clear QAM channel mapping through a web interface to fully support HD locals on cable -- with program information-- *without* the need for a CableCard.

DLNA 1.0 client support allows access to music. photos, and videos on computers, network attached storage, mobile phones, and other devices *without* proprietary software.

Moxi includes a free license to "PlayOn" DLNA software for Windows, which allows you to watch Netflix, Hulu, CBS, YouTube, CNN, and ESPN Internet feeds through the Moxi;

Windows 7 has integrated DLNA server functionality, so you'll be able to right-click on a music or video file , select "Play to Moxi" from the pop-up menu, and that music or video file will begin playing on the Moxi.

Moxi is currently working to add DLNA 2.0 capability with DTCP-IP encryption. This will allow the Moxi to stream recordings throughout the home to other DLNA 2.0 compliant devices that support DTCP-IP encryption.

Conflict management allows you to choose which of the two conflicting programs you would like to skip. You aren't limited to skipping the lower priority program.

Storage expansion works with any external eSATA drive up to *2.0TB*, not just the My DVR Expander (500GB, 1TB).

External drives can be added and removed at will to archive recordings; recordings are not split across internal and external drives, so recordings are not lost when a drive is removed.

Adjustable duration on skip button (30 seconds, 3 minutes, etc).

Ability to display a small guide at bottom of the screen.

Picture window on every menu screen that shows the current liveTV channel and/or current recording.

On-screen widgets for weather, sports scores, stock quotes, etc, updated in real time.

Online scheduling with real time conflict resolution.

You can edit / delete recordings online.

Includes backlit remote (included with TivoHD XL, but a $50 option on TivoHD)

*Moxi Disadvantages*


$799 @ Amazon.com with lifetime service and 500GB drive; there is no option to purchase for less with monthly or yearly fees

No ATSC (OTA) support; the Moxi is *cable only*;

No support for SDV channels on cable _-- Moxi expects to add that capability this summer_;

No built-in support for analog channels; customers must request a free USB device to add a *single* analog tuner to the box;

Cannot download or transfer recordings to a computer; cannot view DVR recordings on a computer;

No support for multi-room viewing;

Later this year, Moxi plans to add multi-room viewing between Moxi DVRs and MoxiMate extenders. Unlike the current implementation of MRV on the TiVo, there will be *no restrictions* on what recordings can be streamed from one room to another, thanks to the use of DTCP-IP encryption.

No wishlists or comparable functionality (can't record based on search);

You cannot setup a single recording to record all new games with your favorite team, regardless of date, time, and channel. You cannot create a single recording to record all new pilots and season premieres. You cannot create a single recording for all new HD movies in a particular genre. You cannot create a recording for a future program not yet listed in the guide, whenever and wherever it shows.

No overlap protection, so 1-2 minute program overlaps cause conflicts that can result in missed recordings;

Many networks run their programs 1-2 minutes past the hour, and this creates conflicts with programs on other networks. TiVo clips off 1-2 minutes from the lowest-priority conflicting program so it still gets recorded, whereas Moxi cancels the recording for the conflicting program.

Does not keep a record of recorded programs to prevent re-recording the same programs after they are deleted from the DVR;

Does not remember the position on the inactive tuner. You can't pause one tuner, switch to a different tuner, and then resume where you left off; the inactive tuner always switches to liveTV;

Lacks "traditional" grid-based program guide.

Moxi's guide is similar to the default "TiVo-style" guide in that it only shows upcoming programs for the currently selected channel. Moxi presents this information in much more graphical way, with quick access to content filters, but they actually show less upcoming program information on the screen (three upcoming timeslots, compared to *eight* timeslots on TiVo).
There is no option to use a traditional grid-based guide instead, as you can on the TiVo.

No manual recording screen. You can only create recordings from the program guide or by selecting a search result.

When you stop or finish a recording, the Moxi always displays a liveTV window, even when that is a recording-in-progress (such as a sporting event); there is no way to exit a recording without seeing the liveTV window;

If the user is recording a sports event to watch later, or to watch on a delay to skip commercials, the viewing experience is "spoiled" because the user sees the score before they've started to watch the recording. This behavior is detrimental to sports viewing, but sporting events aren't the only programs affected; key plot developments in movies and series may be revealed before the user has the opportunity to watch the recording. That is not the desired behavior -- it acts as a built-in spoiler.
When you finish watching a recorded program, the liveTV video window should always default to whatever channel is not recording. If two programs are recording, then display a black video window with a message, "Two recordings in progress. Press the LiveTV button to display the picture." If Moxi wishes to preserve the existing behavior for some users, then it should add this as an option in global settings.

No option to use a phone line for guide downloads; a network connection is required, using a direct run of ethernet cable, a wireless bridge, a powerline adapter, or a MoCA adapter.

Has only one CableCard slot, so a M-CARD is *required* for both tuners to function with digital cable. If your cable provider doesn't have M-CARDs available, then you won't get dual-tuner functionality.

No support for Netflix's HD; only supports Netflix SD, and only does so when a Windows PC is on and running the PlayOn software;

No support for Amazon Unbox's HDTV VOD service with series and movies downloads in 1080p24 with DD5.1 ($4.99 per HD movie, $2.99 per HD episode).

Auto-correction on FF / REW not as accurate as TiVo (subjective)

Moxi assumes that the user has faster reflexes, so it provides less auto-correction than TiVo.

Interface not as intuitive (subjective)


----------



## clark_kent

Phantom Gremlin said:


> You have this already. It just takes two boxes.


That is not a very good (or elegant) solution. Especially for households that have more then one person "running" a TiVo.

I believe a single M-Card is capable of supporting up to 6 simultaneous steams. If that's correct, in theory, you could record up to 6 concurrent programs all at once with a single box and manage all the recordings within that one box. No chuck and jive between 2 boxes and remembering which box manages which recordings.

TiVo should have come out with a 4 tuner box as soon as M-Cards become readily available. Or, at least introduced an option for 4 tuners along with the TiVoHDXL for $799. Moxi could have leap frogged TiVo by coming out the gate with a 4 tuner box and gained a significant "wow" factor. Moxi missed an opportunity to clearly position itself head and shoulder above a TiVo.

With so much programming available, I think there are plenty of customers that would like to be able to record, or time-shift more then just 2 programs at a time and telling those folks to get a "second" box is not the answer, IMHO.

I for one, can only hope to see a 4 tuner TiVo as a Series 4 in the not to distant future. I'm tiered of telling my wife that she can only pick 2 programs at a time. And, I'm tired of not being able to record something that I'd like to record because my wife already pick her 2 programs to record.


----------



## bareyb

Phantom Gremlin said:


> You have this already. It just takes two boxes.
> 
> I have 2x DirecTiVos in the family room. Helps preserve peace in the household.


Well I already have two boxes, so four tuners total. It's still not enough and I don't really want to add a 3rd TiVo box. If they can get it up to 3 HD tuners per box, I think that would probably do it for me. As it is, I have to put some of "my" shows on the "kids" TiVo in order to resolve the conflicts. If I had even one more tuner per box, I'd be fine. I think... 4 tuners per box would be even better...


----------



## bareyb

clark_kent said:


> TiVo should have come out with a 4 tuner box as soon as M-Cards become readily available. Or, at least introduced an option for 4 tuners along with the TiVoHDXL for $799. Moxi could have leap frogged TiVo by coming out the gate with a 4 tuner box and gained a significant "wow" factor. Moxi missed an opportunity to clearly position itself head and shoulder above a TiVo.
> 
> .


If the Moxi box could record 4 HD Channels at once and they got their MRV thing working, I think I'd probably buy one now... It's _that_ great a feature to me. I'm sick and tired of having to check both TiVos every day to make sure everything I want to see is getting recorded. Most days I have to manually shift things from one TiVo to the other and back again. Four tuners would be a huge convenience for me.


----------



## clark_kent

bareyb said:


> If the Moxi box could record 4 HD Channels at once and they got their MRV thing working, I think I'd probably buy one now... It's _that_ great a feature to me. I'm sick and tired of having to check both TiVos every day to make sure everything I want to see is getting recorded. Most days I have to manually shift things from one TiVo to the other and back again. Four tuners would be a huge convenience for me.


+1 for me.

I encourage you to send your sentiment to [email protected] they actually reply.

I'm a TiVo fan, but I think TiVo has been sitting on their thumbs way too long on some important features. They've had no competition. The market has been ready for a single, 4 tuner box for some time now (IMHO). And, since a single M-Card can support up to 6 streams at once, the technology has been there for some time. Don't know what a 4 tuner box would cost to manufacture, but can't imagine that a retail price of $799 would not be profitable. It would be interesting to see a manufacturing cost estimate report on a TiVoHD and a TiVoHDXL from the likes of iSuppli like they do on Apple stuff:

http://www.macrumors.com/2009/04/13/new-ipod-shuffle-contains-22-worth-of-parts/


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## ZeoTiVo

clark_kent said:


> TiVo should have come out with a 4 tuner box as soon as M-Cards become readily available. Or, at least introduced an option for 4 tuners along with the TiVoHDXL for $799.


you would need PC power to deal with 4 HD streams at once. 799$ would likely not cover it and TiVo nor MOXI is exactly flying off the shelves at the current price point. I have 4 tuners recording things now on 2 TiVo DVRs so get that need - however aside from figuring out where to put something when first setting up the season pass I have no ongoing need to check that the DVRs will record what was setup. How often are you setting up new things to record? Perhaps you do need a media center PC for your needs?


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## MickeS

solutionsetc said:


> Why not subscribe to the cell phone way of entering characters (A=2 C=2,2,2) in addition to having to make all those button pushes to move the cursor around a character grid?


I have mentioned this many times here in the forum. It's probably my biggest gripe right now with TiVo when it comes to the additional functionality, that there is no cell-phone style text entering. I really hope this is implemented somehow.

However, I have to say that the new TiVo Search took care of a lot of those issues by re-arranging the search result in a vastly smarter way than simply returning alphabetical hits. Now it seems to go by search results popularity or something because whenever I search for something it always comes back near the top of the search results. :up:


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## Phantom Gremlin

ZeoTiVo said:


> you would need PC power to deal with 4 HD streams at once. 799$ would likely not cover it and TiVo nor MOXI is exactly flying off the shelves at the current price point. I have 4 tuners recording things now on 2 TiVo DVRs so get that need - however aside from figuring out where to put something when first setting up the season pass I have no ongoing need to check that the DVRs will record what was setup. How often are you setting up new things to record? Perhaps you do need a media center PC for your needs?


I think another alternative to a media center PC would be if multiple TiVos could cooperatively "smart schedule" programs. This couldn't be that hard to write!

And the implementation might be as simple as asking something like: "Your new season pass can't be scheduled because you are already recording two programs. However, I see that the "bedroom TiVo" has a tuner open. Should I schedule on that TiVo?"

I think some competing products had that capability a long time ago (maybe Replay?).

The advantage to Tivo of smart scheduling across boxes is that it preserves their recurring revenue stream because they could still charge 2x the dollars monthly for two boxes.

The main disadvantage I can think of is that transferring files across TiVos is (often) slower than real-time. But that's probably something that could be remedied with better programming (except where wireless is too slow).


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## bkdtv

ZeoTiVo said:


> you would need PC power to deal with 4 HD streams at once. 799$ would likely not cover it and TiVo nor MOXI is exactly flying off the shelves at the current price point.


The newest Broadcom DVR SoC handles 6 HD streams at once (4 record + 2 playback). The first DVR to use this solution is the new Dish ViP722k -- it can record four HDTV channels at once (2 satellite, 2 OTA), with simultaneous playback of one HD recording through the HD outputs and a second HD recording through the SD outputs.



Phantom Gremlin said:


> I think another alternative to a media center PC would be if multiple TiVos could cooperatively "smart schedule" programs. This couldn't be that hard to write!
> 
> And the implementation might be as simple as asking something like: "Your new season pass can't be scheduled because you are already recording two programs. However, I see that the "bedroom TiVo" has a tuner open. Should I schedule on that TiVo?"
> 
> I think some competing products had that capability a long time ago (maybe Replay?).


Cooperative scheduling is of limited use if you can't remotely access the recordings on other TiVos in your home. Any implementation of CS must be accompanied by an implementation of restriction-free [streaming] MRV.

ReplayTV only recorded analog channels, so they never had to worry about what could and could not be transferred. To support streaming MRV with protected digital content, TiVo needs to get their own encryption method approved by CableLabs...or do like Moxi and implement one of the already approved methods (DTCP-IP). The [email protected] folks are saying that they'll have it done this summer; it would be quite a coup if Moxi is able to accomplish in several months what TiVo was unable to do in two years.

It is possible to build DTCP-IP capable STBs (for remote viewing) in quantity for under $40 using Sigma SMP864x SoCs. From what I understand, that is exactly what Moxi is doing with the MoxiMate. The last version of the MoxiMate was $79 and the new and improved DTCP-IP based model is expected to sell for $100 or less. Moxi becomes much more compelling as a solution when you can add *fee-less* $79-$99 extenders throughout your home that do streaming MRV.


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## ZeoTiVo

bkdtv said:


> Moxi becomes much more compelling as a solution when you can add *fee-less* $79-$99 extenders throughout your home that do streaming MRV.


if they could do this then they can start to legitimately claim lower price than TiVo  though that is dependent on what they charge for the MRV itself. It seems to me their business model is charge a set fee up front and then charge to get certain updates after that to keep the cash flow going. Time will tell us what they can pull off.


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## slowbiscuit

First posted review of a Moxi (that I've seen). Not much meat there but it's better than nothing. Quick summary: don't give up on Tivo yet.

http://gizmodo.com/5231626/moxi-hd-review-beats-cable-but-it-aint-tivo


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## mattack

I thought of another few questions about the Moxi. I think the answer to this MUST be yes, but just to ask it to make sure..

People have said you can have unlimited additional drives..

So does that mean the UI allows you to move individual recordings between drives?

Do you choose which drive to record to when initially scheduling a drive (IMHO that should be unnecessary, and unfortunately could cause you to miss a recording due to one of the drives being full... but manual moving afterwards is useful).

Is there any sort of user-created folder hierarchy available on internal/external drives?

I realize it sounds like I just want more of a computer than a PVR.. but as much of a fan of Tivo as I am, and though I'm unlikely to get one of these... I would be the kind of person who would likely have external drives (to store related programs on for later watching for example).


----------



## bkdtv

mattack,

As far as I know, the answer is "no" to all of those questions.

From what I can gather from [email protected], the primary difference between external expansion on the TiVo and Moxi is that the Moxi does not split recordings across both drives. Recordings are simply made to one drive or another, depending on available space. It's not like the Dish Network ViP722 which allows you to move recordings from one drive to another.


----------



## mattack

Bummer.. then that makes having external drives *slightly* less useful, IMHO.

I'd want to gather similar recordings on a specific drive (e.g. a whole season that I didn't intend to watch until the summer or something). But it sounds like you'd have to do that ahead of time.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

mattack said:


> Bummer.. then that makes having external drives *slightly* less useful, IMHO.
> 
> I'd want to gather similar recordings on a specific drive (e.g. a whole season that I didn't intend to watch until the summer or something). But it sounds like you'd have to do that ahead of time.


this is where the ability to copy a show to the TiVo pays off big time. I can rip a DVD as straight mpeg2 with no compression and save it on my hard drive organized by folders on the drive - then later use pyTiVo to see a listing organized by those same folders in now playing on the Tivo and copy over the one I want to watch and not loose any DVD picture quality. I assume I could do the same for Blu-Ray but have not gotten into that yet as I know the copy would not likely be real time. I could go streaming as well but have large drives in the Tivo DVRs so have not worried about that so much. We did a movie night outside in the play fort (I made a big one of my own design) and rather than worry about DVDs in the dark I load up a TiVo with movies and attach it and thus even have a good selection of movies to watch. I might look into wireless and see what range I have outside and skip the load it up stage.

So Moxi will have a distinct advantage in streaming any show no matter the copy protection - but how does it work with getting shows to it. Playon is a very good add on and smart quick hit for Moxi but long term I need to store shows on a PC server and be able to watch them via any DVR in the house without loss of DVD quality. HD is a bonus


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## fallingwater

bkdtv said:


> ...From what I can gather from [email protected], the primary difference between external expansion on the TiVo and Moxi is that the Moxi does not split recordings across both drives. Recordings are simply made to one drive or another, depending on available space. It's not like the Dish Network ViP722 which allows you to move recordings from one drive to another.


I didn't realize that Dish's drive expander worked that way. So Moxi offers a third alternative to TiVo and Dish. Moxi's system is compatibile with larger drives than Dish's and is both simpler and free of extra cost (except the price of the drives of course). 
http://www.dishnetwork.com/receivers/expandYourDVR/default.aspx
http://www.dishnetwork.com/receivers/expandYourDVR/document/1LDVRStorage.pdf

In your opinion would it require a major software revision for TiVo to change its system to something similiar to Moxi's? If TiVo could offer such functionality at a sufficiently low developmental cost, it sounds like a winner!


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## bkdtv

fallingwater said:


> In your opinion would it require a major software revision for TiVo to change its system to something similiar to Moxi's? If TiVo could offer such functionality at a sufficiently low developmental cost, it sounds like a winner!


I think the ship has probably sailed with the TivoHD and Series3.

If the TiVo folks are competent, they'll implement eSATA differently in the next-generation TiVo. Splitting recordings across two drives is not a reliable, long-term solution. It causes unnecessary wear and tear on the external drive, and the TiVo becomes unstable when the external drive starts to go bad. The Moxi and Scientific Atlanta (IIRC) approach is to make an entire recording on one drive or the other, depending on available space. If space exists on the internal drive, the box records using that; otherwise, it records to the external drive. Such minimizes wear and tear on the external drive and minimizes the effect of external drive problems on DVR stability.

The existing eSATA implementation on the TivoHD was a mistake. I just hope that TiVo learned from that mistake.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

bkdtv said:


> The existing eSATA implementation on the TivoHD was a mistake. I just hope that TiVo learned from that mistake.


I agree with your points on wear and tear and overall stability
however for TiVo and its space management algorithm it is not as simple as if space on internal drive especially if it is a stock drive that is pretty small to start with.

Still I do agree TiVo needs to roll up its sleeves and make the external drive more useful. As for myself I will stick with upgrading my internal drives to 1 TB and leaving it as a non issue in my house.


----------



## solutionsetc

I don't think it will require new hardware to redo the external drive configuration as the OS supports multiple volumes. I am guessing TiVo went with the implementation they did because a.) it was easier to code as the decision making process of what to delete when and from where is simpler on a single striped array than across multiple volumes, or b.) they wanted to make it impossible to transfer DRM material (or maybe both).

In any event, my experience over the years is that wear and tear and "stability" don't have to be tradeoffs necessary in using disc arrays. I am guessing TiVo's seemingly high degree of failure with the externals is software related.

Of course changing the status quo would piss off a bunch of folks who already have an external as it would mean deleting their shows to implement support for multiple volumes... unless of course they support both ways via a preference setting (meaning even more code to implement and support).

I would prefer them just getting the bugs out of the code they have now as allowing plug 'n play drives like the moxi would most likely require a complete rethink of the program indexing algorithms that are currently being used. New code = new bugs.

Now if they would be willing to scrap eSATA for a 1394b controller with multi-volume support, that would be worth all the work as it would one up all of the competition and truly give us versatile and almost unlimited storage. But to redo everything as it stands just to prevent lost programs due to an external HD failure seems like a lotta work for comparatively little gain (IMHO).


----------



## pilotbob

bkdtv said:


> Splitting recordings across two drives is not a reliable, long-term solution. It causes unnecessary wear and tear on the external drive, and the TiVo becomes unstable when the external drive starts to go bad.


That I don't care about, nor think is important. The big problem I have is that I can NOT update my DVR expander to the new 1TB version from the 500GB version without loosing all/most of my recordings. If they only kept full shows on it, I could unplug it... plug the old and new to my PC, move all the files then hook up the new one. Now I have all my recordings and my extra 500Gb.

Alas... I can't do that. Bummer.

BOb


----------



## solutionsetc

pilotbob said:


> That I don't care about, nor think is important. The big problem I have is that I can NOT update my DVR expander to the new 1TB version from the 500GB version without loosing all/most of my recordings. If they only kept full shows on it, I could unplug it... plug the old and new to my PC, move all the files then hook up the new one. Now I have all my recordings and my extra 500Gb.
> 
> Alas... I can't do that. Bummer.
> 
> BOb


Actually you can. One of my new THD's was behaving badly and after several talks with TiVo, I decided to have Amazon replace it. While I was waiting for the new unit I simply transferred all my shows to my Mac. Now that the new unit is here I will transfer them back.


----------



## pilotbob

solutionsetc said:


> Actually you can. One of my new THD's was behaving badly and after several talks with TiVo, I decided to have Amazon replace it. While I was waiting for the new unit I simply transferred all my shows to my Mac. Now that the new unit is here I will transfer them back.


Not exactly the same. Transferring shows over the network is probably magnitudes slower than eSata. That said, what tool did you use on your Mac? I may have to take this approach.

BOb


----------



## solutionsetc

Certainly not the same (it takes forever), but I just queue up a bunch of transfers before going to work (or bed).

I use Toast because I have it, but iTivo works fine and I think it is freeware.


----------



## bkdtv

pilotbob said:


> That I don't care about, nor think is important. The big problem I have is that I can NOT update my DVR expander to the new 1TB version from the 500GB version without loosing all/most of my recordings. If they only kept full shows on it, I could unplug it... plug the old and new to my PC, move all the files then hook up the new one. Now I have all my recordings and my extra 500Gb.


No cable DVR is going to allow you to do that. CableLabs forbids that as part of their CableCard licensing agreement.

TiVo is the only cable DVR that allows you to offload non-protected recordings to another TiVo (MRV) or your computer (TTG). If you had to sit by and wait for each recording, this would be a major hassle; thankfully, MRV and TTG (TiVo Desktop, iTiVo, kmttg, etc) allow you to queue up dozens of recordings, so they transfer during the day and during the night.


----------



## dwarner

lrhorer said:


> Um, not so much, really. The checksum doesn't take long, and disabling the checksum doesn't speed up the unit very much at all. It still takes over 6 minutes for a THD to boot.


Why all this talk about boot times? The only time you're going to restart a Tivo is during initial setup, Before messing with my recent cablecard install, I don't think I've seen my S3 restart in over 2 years.


----------



## bmgoodman

dwarner said:


> Why all this talk about boot times? The only time you're going to restart a Tivo is during initial setup, Before messing with my recent cablecard install, I don't think I've seen my S3 restart in over 2 years.


Well, I've seen some folks who were getting frequent reboots after connecting their tuning adapters. I've also had a number of Tivo applets (that use the network) lock up and reboot the Tivo. I've seen this behavior on both my units. And I have checked each hard disk a number of times, so I do not believe that is the cause.... Then there are those with Tivos that reboot for an update during the recording of a show.

So, for all those reasons and I'm sure a few more, boot time is more important today than it was in past years.


----------



## morac

bmgoodman said:


> I've also had a number of Tivo applets (that use the network) lock up and reboot the Tivo. I've seen this behavior on both my units. And I have checked each hard disk a number of times, so I do not believe that is the cause....


I've had the same thing happen recently as well. I've also had the TiVo lock up when downloading HD content from Amazon. All in all, the TiVo seems less stable since the Netflix functionality was added. This only applies when using network features as it's rock solid otherwise.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

dwarner said:


> Why all this talk about boot times? The only time you're going to restart a Tivo is during initial setup, Before messing with my recent cablecard install, I don't think I've seen my S3 restart in over 2 years.


Maybe it's my imagination, but I feel that my TiVo HD runs "better" if I reboot it every month or two. Plus it locks up or acts flaky every so often and a reboot seems to cure it. Also TiVo pushes out occasional software updates (the last just a month or so ago) and those also require a reboot (and in my case the most recent update required about 3 reboots for one of my boxes).


----------



## spocko

bmgoodman said:


> Then there are those with Tivos that reboot for an update during the recording of a show.


Does that really happen? Intuitively I would expect the box to be specifically programmed to NOT reboot to apply updates if a recording is in progress or is scheduled to start soon.


----------



## morac

spocko said:


> Does that really happen? Intuitively I would expect the box to be specifically programmed to NOT reboot to apply updates if a recording is in progress or is scheduled to start soon.


It's not supposed to do that, unless you record 24/7 in which case it has no choice.


----------



## mattack

dwarner said:


> Why all this talk about boot times? The only time you're going to restart a Tivo is during initial setup, Before messing with my recent cablecard install, I don't think I've seen my S3 restart in over 2 years.


I have only skimmed this thread, but I *do* have a beef about huge boot times....

Even if simply due to a power outage(*), less time to reboot means less time to get back to recording the show(s) you were currently recording, or simply to *USING* the Tivo to watch shows previously recorded.

(*) Yes, I have my Tivos on a UPS, but really I have it mostly due to my non-Tivo recorder, which could corrupt if it loses power during recording. My S1 boots VERY VERY quickly. It's nuts how long it takes both my S3 & TivoHD to reboot, then "acquiring channels" or whatever it does for a few more minutes.

Plus, unfortunately due to bugs, people have to reboot for other reasons (suggestions not recording, etc.)


----------



## bicker

So when can we expect a price reduction on the Moxi? It is still running $100 more expensive than TiVo.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Agreed. I think that this box is essentially DOA as long as it remains more expensive than an equivalent Tivo. Considering Tivo's brand dominance and the limited market for DVRs anyway, it should perhaps be made $100 cheaper.


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## fallingwater

HDTiVo costs $250 or less when storage capacity isn't considered and service is paid monthly.

Moxi is expensive. HDTiVo XL with Lifetime Service is expensive. Style, functionality and perceived risk factor, IMHO, are more important than price when Moxi is considered as a DVR option.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16475865#post16475865


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## fallingwater

_Home Theater_'s review gets it wrong about Moxi and CableCARDS. Moxi encourages CableCARDS, as does TiVo, but its workaround went totally over the reviewer's head. 
http://www.hometheatermag.com/pvr/digeo_moxi_hd_dvr/

I wouldn't buy Moxi (or TiVo either, if I'd never used one) without taking advantage of their 30 day money back guarantee. I also wouldn't consider Moxi without its analog tuning dongle.


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## slowbiscuit

Smelled like a paid review to me. How the hell can they give Moxi 4 stars for 'value'? Please.


----------



## slowbiscuit

fallingwater said:


> HDTiVo costs $250 or less when storage capacity isn't considered and service is paid monthly.
> 
> Moxi is expensive. HDTiVo XL with Lifetime Service is expensive. Style, functionality and perceived risk factor, IMHO, are more important than price when Moxi is considered as a DVR option.
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16475865#post16475865


The problem is that the Moxi costs $800 at Amazon, with no retail competition.

Tivo HD's have recently been available for $200 or less at Sears, and a lifetime sub is $330 from a fleabay seller (assuming no MSD, which would make it $299). Throw in a 500GB drive for $60 (comparing apples to apples) and a Tivo equivalent to the Moxi can be had for over $200 less. What a difference an open market makes.


----------



## fallingwater

More typical, for most prospective new buyers HDTiVo costs $240 from Amazon with free shipping and thus would cost $300 with a 500GB replacement HDD. But most new buyers won't open their brand new TiVos to replace their internal HDDs and instead would buy TiVo's authorized DVR Expander for $150 for a total of $390. 

Most new TiVo users would probably avoid eBay for TiVo Lifetime Service and wouldn't have a MSD option and likely would sub monthly with a one year commitment @ 12.95 for a total of $545.40 for the first year. As an alternative some would buy Lifetime Service for $399 for a total of $790 for &#8531; more storage than a stock Moxi. A 500GB eSata external HDD for Moxi typically runs $120 so Moxi would cost ± $950 if expanded to 1 TB storage. 

TiVo does offer a price advantage but typically less than your $200 which is arrived at by combining the lowest possible prices with an atypical level of savvy and/or expertise from a new buyer.


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## MickeS

fallingwater said:


> TiVo does offer a price advantage but typically less than your $200 which is arrived at by combining the lowest possible prices with an atypical level of savvy and/or expertise from a new buyer.


Unsavvy buyers simply don't buy TiVo or Moxi these days. They get whatever crap their TV service provider sends out a flyer about.


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## orangeboy

I wanted to see how the Moxi UI looked, and found this on YouTube:


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## bkdtv

orangeboy said:


> I wanted to see how the Moxi UI looked, and found this on YouTube:


Thanks, bookmarked.


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## morac

slowbiscuit said:


> The problem is that the Moxi costs $800 at Amazon, with no retail competition.


People seem to be forgetting that when the TiVo S3 first came out it retailed for $800 and that was before any subscription costs. Within a few months it could be found for as little as $550.


----------



## bicker

A "few months", eh? Which of the plethora of intro dates they had for the Moxi HD DVR is that to be counted from? Regardless, even from the latest of them, that means you're implying that we'll see a significant price drop next month. Let's wait and see eh?


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## bkdtv

morac said:


> People seem to be forgetting that when the TiVo S3 first came out it retailed for $800 and that was before any subscription costs. Within a few months it could be found for as little as $550.


Moxi is using the direct sales model. Any reduction in price directly hits their bottom line.

That was not the case with the TiVo. TiVo sells at retail, so they factor in large margins for retailers. On average, the price paid by retailers for TiVo was 30-40% less than MSRP. At release, Best Buy's price for the $299 TivoHD was $208. At release, their price on the $799 Series3 was under $500.

TiVo has lowered their price on their boxes over time, but not nearly as much as the reduction in mail order pricing would suggest. Retailers and mail order vendors opted to accept lower margins on the product, once they'd taken advantage of early adopters.


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## slowbiscuit

At the new $500 price point for a Moxi HD DVR, Tivo better step up if they want to compete. If you need multi-room, the 3-tuner bundle with 2 Moxi Mate extenders is WAY cheaper than 3 Tivos as well.

Also see discussion here.

For me the jury is still out on Arris and how willing they'll be to sell a product almost no one knows about in a niche market, but we'll see.


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## KungFuCow

At $499 Im probably going to pick up a Moxi and see if I can get a refund from Tivo on the service I havent used. Im really disappointed with my Tivo and even moreso with the lack of support from Tivo over the issues Ive been having.


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## JimDog14

I'm really struggling with what to do. Long story short, I've had a Series 2 (that has been nothing but flawless and rock solid for years) in the bedroom. My main HDTV had a DVR built in. Well that TV went belly up. So now I'm in the market for a new DVR.

I've looked at Tivo HD, Dish Pal, Moxi, TVix, MythTv, PauseLiveTv, MonolithMC, you name it. My issue is none of the DVRs seem to meet my needs. Moxi comes the closest. But not having an OTA tuner is bothering me because if Comcast decides to stop sending down the locals via QAM I'm screwed.

I'd have no problem getting a Tivo HD, if it weren't for the fact that I've been reading lots of complaints about it losing the basic cable channels almost daily.

So it's either:
1. Go Tivo HD, knowing it has issues...but I'll have OTA HD.
2. Go Moxi knowing that if Clear QAM disappears I'll be stuck with nothing and have to upgrade to Digital Cable (or sell it and get a Tivo at that time....hmmm, just thought of that) 

As much as I love Tivo, I'm thinking Moxi at this point.


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## KungFuCow

JimDog14 said:


> As much as I love Tivo, I'm thinking Moxi at this point.


Ive already ordered mine from Amazon. If you decide Moxi, Id get it there to avoid the sales tax Moxi charges you even tho youre not in their home state.

If you decide you want a TivoHD, I have a slightly used one Id part with at a good deal


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## Phantom Gremlin

JimDog14 said:


> But not having an OTA tuner is bothering me because if Comcast decides to stop sending down the locals via QAM I'm screwed.


I don't think that's very likely to happen. I believe they are *required* by the FCC to carry the HD locals in clear QAM. Search the forums, this has been discussed many times. Comcast even sends me SD versions of the locals in clear QAM, but I don't think they're required to do that. I never use the SD versions but it could be useful to for some people. E.g. if you record Oprah, do you really need to see her fat ass in HD?



> I'd have no problem getting a Tivo HD, if it weren't for the fact that I've been reading lots of complaints about it losing the basic cable channels almost daily.


I use a TiVo HD every day to record clear QAM locals, I've been using it for years, and it works just fine. But it does require CableCARDs to be useful. I've *never* had a problem with the box "losing" clear QAM channels. I think perhaps some people have reported problems with the box not recording analogs correctly.


----------



## bicker

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I don't think that's very likely to happen. I believe they are *required* by the FCC to carry the HD locals in clear QAM. Search the forums, this has been discussed many times. Comcast even sends me SD versions of the locals in clear QAM, but I don't think they're required to do that. I never use the SD versions but it could be useful to for some people.


MSOs are required to provide, in-the-clear, *one *signal from each broadcast station (selecting Must Carry). The specific signal is the decision of the broadcaster. It has not yet been decided by the courts or regulators whether the SD downconverts qualify as satisfying the requirement. There are regulations that limit material degradation, but court decisions that hold that downconversion is not material degradation for regulatory purposes.

Of course, the broadcaster could choose to withhold all their signals, requiring payment instead (called Retransmission Consent), if the broadcaster chooses. In that case, of course, the MSO isn't required to carry any of those channels in-the-clear, but the broadcaster will likely insist on that as a condition of Retransmission Consent, should the MSO elect to pay for the channel.


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## JimDog14

What bicker said.

My concerns are basically that Comcast will decide one day to continue to send down the locals via Clear QAM, but the SD signal, not the HD signal. I could see Comcast saying to the FCC, "Hey, we're still providing the locals like you said we should. Just not in HD." At that point a Moxi would only be an SD DVR. Whereas with a Tivo, I could slap on an antenna and continue to get the locals in HD.

Also that whole "payment" vs "no-payment" being a loophole for Comcast and saying, hey we don't have to retransmit these at all bugs me too.

Still leaning towards a Moxi at this point though.


----------



## bicker

JimDog14 said:


> Also that whole "payment" vs "no-payment" being a loophole for Comcast and saying, hey we don't have to retransmit these at all bugs me too.


That's really *on the broadcasters*. Comcast has no control over whether the broadcaster is going to make them pay for stuff or not. The broadcaster can even charge different prices for different subscribers for HD versions of their channels versus SD versions.

So your objection is to the whole idea of Retransmission Consent, i.e., that broadcasters should never have been allowed to charge MSOs for providing their over-the-air broadcast channels to subscribers, since they're supposed to be provided to folks in the DMA for free. Essentially, everything would have been mandated as Must-Carry, no retransmission fee. That would have been fair to the MSOs, sure, but smacks a bit of anti-broadcaster sentiment. I'm personally torn regarding that -- there are good arguments either way, and neither way is definitively more fair, overall, than the other.


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## fatlard

Is the Moxi 3 room bundle $999 offered on Amazon?


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## ZeoTiVo

JimDog14 said:


> I'd have no problem getting a Tivo HD, if it weren't for the fact that I've been reading lots of complaints about it losing the basic cable channels almost daily.


that is with only some TiVo HD boxes and only if they do not have a cable card. if you get a cable card and use the digital channels then this is NOT an issue at all.

The Moxi is set to only record digital channels and requires a cable card - unless you get the optional analog tuner dongle - and I think that is only 1 tuner.

The fact that Moxi chose to ignore analog and OTA broadcast and record only digital with their boxes is why they can do a cheap 3 "tuner" box. With digital it is all just a set of inexpensive chips.


----------



## JimDog14

ZeoTiVo said:


> that is with only some TiVo HD boxes and only if they do not have a cable card. if you get a cable card and use the digital channels then this is NOT an issue at all.


Sorry, I should have clarified. I only have Basic (analog) cable, whatever is sent over ClearQAM and OTA. Comcast won't give me a cable card unless I upgrade to digital cable (at least last time I checked).



> The Moxi is set to only record digital channels and requires a cable card - unless you get the optional analog tuner dongle - and I think that is only 1 tuner.


I was planning on getting the analog dongle anyway (since I don't have digital cable). My understanding though is that it will find all the analog channels via the dongle and all of the ClearQAM via the digital tuner and be able to record two shows at once. That's what it sounds like in the Moxi FAQ on their website at least. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## bkdtv

JimDog14 said:


> I was planning on getting the analog dongle anyway (since I don't have digital cable). My understanding though is that it will find all the analog channels via the dongle and all of the ClearQAM via the digital tuner and be able to record two shows at once. That's what it sounds like in the Moxi FAQ on their website at least. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Actually, Moxi will record three channels at once when the analog dongle is added (1 analog, 2 qam).

If you get the updated triple tuner model with the dongle, then you are still limited to recording three channels at a time (3 qam or 2 qam + 1 analog).


----------



## ZeoTiVo

JimDog14 said:


> Sorry, I should have clarified. I only have Basic (analog) cable, whatever is sent over ClearQAM and OTA. Comcast won't give me a cable card unless I upgrade to digital cable (at least last time I checked).


 Ok - I have one TiVo HD that records analog cable with no porblem whatso ever - I had one upstairs (slightly weaker signal) that some months back would loose the analog tuning once every couple of weeks and need a reboot to get back on track. That behavior has not been seen in some months though. Bear in mind that this is a forum people come to for help so the problems are magnified here. I think having that analog problem is much lower chance then it might seem. Of course it is your money and thus your bet, 



> I was planning on getting the analog dongle anyway (since I don't have digital cable). My understanding though is that it will find all the analog channels via the dongle and all of the ClearQAM via the digital tuner and be able to record two shows at once. That's what it sounds like in the Moxi FAQ on their website at least. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


yes I think that is how the Moxi will work but you will need to map the clear QAM channels manually.

so to sum up some for your specific scenario of analog
TiVo HD - record 2 analog at once. record 2 OTA at once.
record 2 QAM at once but you have to manually set the recordings and have no guide info.

Moxi - record 1 analog at once, no OTA at all. record 2 digital QAM at once if they come through unencrypted but with full scheduler and guide data after manual mapping.

since you really just want basic cable and OTA - you may well be better off with a Windows 7 Media Center PC and how ever many tuner cards you want to put in


----------



## JimDog14

ZeoTiVo said:


> since you really just want basic cable and OTA - you may well be better off with a Windows 7 Media Center PC and how ever many tuner cards you want to put in


Funny thing is, I've got an XBox 360 that can stream TV etc from the wifey's Vista box, but it's not the same having to always turn on the 360 whenever we want to watch TV. And I'm pretty sure she'd object to having a PC in the family room. I did look at building a small / quiet box but at that point I was looking at the same price for a Moxi or Tivo which is why I've decided to get one of those.

Still thinking Moxi, BUT I'm glad to hear that you have the basic analog channels just fine with Tivo. Was there a software update perhaps that has resolved this? I really do love Tivo, but I hesitate to buy one with the "hopes" that they'll fix this issue in the future.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

JimDog14 said:


> Funny thing is, I've got an XBox 360 that can stream TV etc from the wifey's Vista box, but it's not the same having to always turn on the 360 whenever we want to watch TV. And I'm pretty sure she'd object to having a PC in the family room. I did look at building a small / quiet box but at that point I was looking at the same price for a Moxi or Tivo which is why I've decided to get one of those.
> 
> Still thinking Moxi, BUT I'm glad to hear that you have the basic analog channels just fine with Tivo. Was there a software update perhaps that has resolved this? I really do love Tivo, but I hesitate to buy one with the "hopes" that they'll fix this issue in the future.


Yes - 2 TiVo HDs and both with no cable cards and recording just fine, aside from the hiccups a while back. I do think an update improved my upstairs Tivo HD but for others it did not. Best guess it is something between the cable signal and the analog tuner and some boxes just tip over into the problem while most do not.


----------



## KungFuCow

Just so you dont think its all roses and butterflys with the analog issue, mine loses analog channels about once a day. I constantly miss recordings because the tuner takes a crap. I come home to a grey screen.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

JimDog14 said:


> Sorry, I should have clarified. I only have Basic (analog) cable, whatever is sent over ClearQAM and OTA. Comcast won't give me a cable card unless I upgrade to digital cable (at least last time I checked).


IMO a TiVo HD is *useless* for clear QAM without CableCARDs. There is no program guide, so you must schedule manual recordings. That throws the concept of season passes out the window, especially with shows like Nova that move around in the schedule. Also, which of the following would you rather see in your Now Playing List?


Dallas Cowboys at Philadelphia Eagles
or

Rec: 8-1 KGW-HD 5:15 pm

The TiVo HD doesn't even group these manual recordings in folders. So if you record some daily programs, you see this:


Rec: 6-1 KOIN-HD 11:00 pm Wed 11/11

Rec: 12-1 KPTV-DT 10:00 pm Wed 11/11

Rec: 6-1 KOIN-HD 11:00 pm Tue 11/10

Rec: 12-1 KPTV-DT 10:00 pm Tue 11/10

You should check your local HD thread at AVS Forum. Maybe people in your area were able to get Cablecards w/o a premium package. I only have the $10/mo basic cable and get 1 free CableCARD, pay $2/mo for the second.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

KungFuCow said:


> Just so you dont think its all roses and butterflys with the analog issue, mine loses analog channels about once a day. I constantly miss recordings because the tuner takes a crap. I come home to a grey screen.


Like I said some boxes do have the problem and some have it bad. Have you contacted TiVo about the box not working correctly?


----------



## JimDog14

Phantom Gremlin said:


> IMO a TiVo HD is *useless* for clear QAM without CableCARDs.


Oh believe me I realize that. That's why I am leaning towards the Moxi.

Since Comcast won't give me a CableCard for basic cable (again, I need to recheck this) I'd be using only "basic analog" (not QAM) and OTA *if* I got a Tivo HD. I wouldn't even bother with QAM since I don't have a cable card.

BUT since Tivo HD seems to have this problem floating around with basic analog (for over a year is my understanding), that's just one more reason I'm thinking Moxi (lets you remap ClearQAM and also works with basic analog cable without a CableCard).


----------



## KungFuCow

ZeoTiVo said:


> Like I said some boxes do have the problem and some have it bad. Have you contacted TiVo about the box not working correctly?


Yes.. in the first week I owned it. They basically told me they knew about the problem and didnt know when or if a fix would be forthcoming.

FWIW, my Moxi is now up and running. So far it seems to be a very capable device. Its got some interface oddness but nothing Im sure I wont get used to.


----------



## KungFuCow

Some thoughts on the Moxi after a few days of use.

Setup was pretty straightforward. Took about 45 minutes to update the software right out of the box. While it was updating, I was activating the unit online. Once the software finished updating, I keyed in the online pin and the unit activated itself.

The SDV adapter from the Tivo was mostly painless in moving it to the Moxi. I had to unplug the adapter, unplug the USB cable, power the SDV adapter back up and wait for it to resync. That took about 10 minutes. Once I resynched, it, I plugged it into the Moxi and all the SDV channels automatically got added to the guide,.

I had a cable DVR at one point and one of the things that I absolutely hated about it that Tivo didnt do was that it picked up all the rebroadcast episodes on USA as new episodes. Like Burn Notice, Psych, etc. So if they ran a marathon, they'd all get recorded. I suspect the Moxi is going to have this same problem. The Tivo doesnt do it. Maybe they use guide data from a different place, I dont know but this was my biggest pet peeve with the cable DVR so I wanted to bring that up right out of the gate.

The interface on the Moxi is.... different. It seems to require a lot more steps to do things that really should be simpler. Could be that Im not used to it yet and there are shortcuts I dont know about. Along that train of thought, the Moxi doesnt come with a printed users manual, just a quick start guide. I know that downloadable manuals are the thing these days but I think this thing needs a printed manual. Since its a bazzlion pages, I probably dont print it.

An example of this is when setting up a "season pass" on the Moxi, you select the series to record and at that point, its set. If you want to set it up for just first runs or stop/start buffering, you have to go to a completely different menu and edit it. Under normal circumstances, not really a deal breaker but when I was moving all my season passes over, it was a huge PITA.

The guide is also funky. Thankfully I guess in the last software update they added a grid guide. Im sure in time Ill get used to the regular guide but its really kind of odd. 

Media streaming works really well, even tho you have to use PlayOn. I had already bought PlayOn for my PS3 so I guess Ill get another key in a few days. Hulu streaming is fantastic. The picture looks great. Media streaming from my PC also works well and that was something I used all the time on my Tivo. It takes a few more steps to get to the media but it works well.

The ticker is also really cool. You can stream weather, news, sports scores, etc at the bottom of the screen. 

My general feeling on the unit is positive. But, even tho Ive owned multiple Tivos, Ive also had Showstoppers and ReplayTVs so Im used to working with different interfaces and like most people mention, the Moxi's interface is stunning. It kicks the crap out of Tivo appearance wise. I do think that Tivo is slicker operation wise but appearance wise, Moxi owns Tivo.

So far Im not regretting the switch. Im glad that Moxi works with PlayOn. Having Hulu handy like that is awesome. I havent played with the YouTube interface via Playon and it wasnt something I really used on Tivo either but the Hulu stuff will definitely get used. I know Hulu support on PlayOn is a tad spotty so we'll see how well their support holds up.

Im also not sold on the Moxi remote. Its not terrible but the Moxi seems to be a little laggy in responding to remote commands. The layout is a little wierd and I do hit the wrong button from time to time but Im sure that will stop as I get used to it. I also couldnt make it work with the Vizio Sound Bar but other than the Tivo back lit peanut remote, I havent been able to get anything to work with the Vizo Sound Bar.


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## bareyb

Thanks for the review KungFuCow. Interesting to hear first hand impressions. :up:


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## JimDog14

bareyb said:


> Thanks for the review KungFuCow. Interesting to hear first hand impressions. :up:


x2 :up:


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## lew

Tivo and Moxi both (currently) use Tribune guide data.

Is there a screen to set your default options for SPs?



KungFuCow said:


> I had a cable DVR at one point and one of the things that I absolutely hated about it that Tivo didnt do was that it picked up all the rebroadcast episodes on USA as new episodes. Like Burn Notice, Psych, etc. So if they ran a marathon, they'd all get recorded. I suspect the Moxi is going to have this same problem. The Tivo doesnt do it. Maybe they use guide data from a different place, I dont know but this was my biggest pet peeve with the cable DVR so I wanted to bring that up right out of the gate.
> 
> The interface on the Moxi is.... different. It seems to require a lot more steps to do things that really should be simpler. Could be that Im not used to it yet and there are shortcuts I dont know about. Along that train of thought, the Moxi doesnt come with a printed users manual, just a quick start guide. I know that downloadable manuals are the thing these days but I think this thing needs a printed manual. Since its a bazzlion pages, I probably dont print it.
> 
> An example of this is when setting up a "season pass" on the Moxi, you select the series to record and at that point, its set. If you want to set it up for just first runs or stop/start buffering, you have to go to a completely different menu and edit it. Under normal circumstances, not really a deal breaker but when I was moving all my season passes over, it was a huge PITA.
> 
> The guide is also funky. Thankfully I guess in the last software update they added a grid guide. Im sure in time Ill get used to the regular guide but its really kind of odd.
> 
> Media streaming works really well, even tho you have to use PlayOn. I had already bought PlayOn for my PS3 so I guess Ill get another key in a few days. Hulu streaming is fantastic. The picture looks great. Media streaming from my PC also works well and that was something I used all the time on my Tivo. It takes a few more steps to get to the media but it works well.
> 
> The ticker is also really cool. You can stream weather, news, sports scores, etc at the bottom of the screen.
> 
> My general feeling on the unit is positive. But, even tho Ive owned multiple Tivos, Ive also had Showstoppers and ReplayTVs so Im used to working with different interfaces and like most people mention, the Moxi's interface is stunning. It kicks the crap out of Tivo appearance wise. I do think that Tivo is slicker operation wise but appearance wise, Moxi owns Tivo.
> 
> So far Im not regretting the switch. Im glad that Moxi works with PlayOn. Having Hulu handy like that is awesome. I havent played with the YouTube interface via Playon and it wasnt something I really used on Tivo either but the Hulu stuff will definitely get used. I know Hulu support on PlayOn is a tad spotty so we'll see how well their support holds up.
> 
> Im also not sold on the Moxi remote. Its not terrible but the Moxi seems to be a little laggy in responding to remote commands. The layout is a little wierd and I do hit the wrong button from time to time but Im sure that will stop as I get used to it. I also couldnt make it work with the Vizio Sound Bar but other than the Tivo back lit peanut remote, I havent been able to get anything to work with the Vizo Sound Bar.


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## KungFuCow

lew said:


> Tivo and Moxi both (currently) use Tribune guide data.
> 
> Is there a screen to set your default options for SPs?


There doesnt appear to be. Supposedly thats one of the things thats supposed to be coming in the fall update.

Unfortunately, unlike Tivo, there isnt a whole forum for the Moxi. Heck, the only thread I can even find on the thing is on the AVS Forum and its huge and I havent read through much of it.

I suspect that the Moxi is driven by remote shortcuts and I just havent figured a lot of them out.

I do like the unit.. Im going to relocate it tonight to a different place in my cabinet to where I hope it will get a more consistent remove signal. I think my coffee table is interfering with the remote signal.


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## bkdtv

lew said:


> Is there a screen to set your default options for SPs?


No, but Moxi recently announced that default options could be set with the next software update, coming before fall's end.

If you haven't seen it already, I updated the AVS HDTV DVR Feature Comparison table to reflect the new developments. TCF does not support tables so I can't post it here.

According to Arris (Moxi's new owners), the Moxi spends about $5 million per year on DVR R&D. TiVo spends $60 million on who knows what. I suspect TiVo's older architecture makes development rather inefficient.


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## KungFuCow

bkdtv said:


> No, but Moxi recently announced that default options could be set with the next software update, coming before fall's end.


Where does one follow along with Moxi's communications with the public?


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## JimDog14

bkdtv said:


> If you haven't seen it already, I updated the AVS HDTV DVR Feature Comparison table to reflect the new developments. TCF does not support tables so I can't post it here.


Why does it say the analog dongle for Moxi "adds $129"? I thought Moxi said it was free, just pay for shipping?


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## ZeoTiVo

bkdtv said:


> According to Arris (Moxi's new owners), the Moxi spends about $5 million per year on DVR R&D. TiVo spends $60 million on who knows what. I suspect TiVo's older architecture makes development rather inefficient.


in a nutshell - TiVo DVRs support analog recording via internal tuners while the Moxi is only digital internally. I think that makes things significantly easier to develop on and also much cheaper to build.


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## ZeoTiVo

JimDog14 said:


> Why does it say the analog dongle for Moxi "adds $129"? I thought Moxi said it was free, just pay for shipping?


also you are missing some X's. for instance the TiVo and Moxi can also
"Record one channel as SD while you watch a previously recorded show in SD"
and the TiVo can record with "VCR like timer"

that is just not a distinguishing trait for them perhaps


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## bkdtv

ZeoTiVo said:


> also you are missing some X's. for instance the TiVo and Moxi can also
> "Record one channel as SD while you watch a previously recorded show in SD"
> and the TiVo can record with "VCR like timer"


Moxi doesn't offer manual timers, as far as I know. Instead, they offer the "only record in [this] timeslot" option as part of every season pass. TiVo does offer manual recording, so I will add that as "optional."

The "Record one channel as SD" was actually referring to downconversion of HD to SD. I'll clarify that.


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## fatlard

KungFuCow said:


> Where does one follow along with Moxi's communications with the public?


http://twitter.com/moxi_hd

I think even my grand mother twitters....


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## KungFuCow

fatlard said:


> http://twitter.com/moxi_hd
> 
> I think even my grand mother twitters....


LOL.. I dont.. who cares about what I think?


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## rocko

Hey KFC,

Can you comment how your Moxi is performing with the Tuning Adapter? Given all the problems folks have had with some TAs I'm wondering if the MOxI handles them the same, better, or worse than the TiVo? If you haven't had any TA problems then I guess there's nothing to compare but ...

In a roundabout way I guess I'm wondering if the problems with TA's are just poor TA implementations in general or a poor TiVo TA implementation ... ???


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## KungFuCow

rocko said:


> Hey KFC,
> 
> Can you comment how your Moxi is performing with the Tuning Adapter? Given all the problems folks have had with some TAs I'm wondering if the MOxI handles them the same, better, or worse than the TiVo? If you haven't had any TA problems then I guess there's nothing to compare but ...
> 
> In a roundabout way I guess I'm wondering if the problems with TA's are just poor TA implementations in general or a poor TiVo TA implementation ... ???


Its been painless for me. Ive had no issues whatsoever with the TA other than initially getting the Moxi to sync with it. That did take an online chat with Moxi tech support but they were really helpful and after they explained to me how to get it going, it was a snap.

The only thing I can comment on from a Tivo Vs Moxi TA standpoint is the Moxi doesnt seem to have as many dropouts as the Tivo did. I havent had the TA long tho. I had held off hoping the analog bug would be fixed but since it didnt appear a fix was forthcoming, I went ahead and got one.

I had talked also about the poor remote performance. I moved the Moxi to a better location and that helped a lot with the remote signal. I think I had it actually angled away from me where it was at before.


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## Grumock

KungFuCow said:


> I had talked also about the poor remote performance. I moved the Moxi to a better location and that helped a lot with the remote signal. I think I had it actually angled away from me where it was at before.


Here i thought it was just my remote LOL. Even changed out the batteries. Mine is at a funky angle though too.


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## elgibby

KungFuCow said:


> I had talked also about the poor remote performance. I moved the Moxi to a better location and that helped a lot with the remote signal. I think I had it actually angled away from me where it was at before.


FWIW: Lighting of various kinds can interfere with remotes. I had 3-way lamp with a curly CF bulb in it next to my AV cabinet and discovered if the lamp was on "3," my Harmony remote wouldn't work! I've also read that the light emittted from some TVs also can interfere.


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## mattack

lew said:


> Tivo and Moxi both (currently) use Tribune guide data.
> 
> Is there a screen to set your default options for SPs?


Please, there's no reason to quote the entire article, especially top-postingly, when responding to it!!


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## bkdtv

JimDog14 said:


> Why does it say the analog dongle for Moxi "adds $129"? I thought Moxi said it was free, just pay for shipping?


Moxi made the dongle a $129 option when they dropped the price to $499.


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## lew

mattack said:


> Please, there's no reason to quote the entire article, especially top-postingly, when responding to it!!


Just add me to your ignore list.


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## KungFuCow

Id love to find a better replacement remote for the Moxi but with all the odd buttons on it, Id be afraid to try. The remote is "okay", it just wont work with my soundbar and that really disturbs me. LOL


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