# New TiVo CS 'phone number



## OzSat

Please note that due to Sky changing all of its 'phone numbers, the 'phone number for TiVo CS is also changing to *0844 2 410 703*


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## cwaring

DAMN! 0844 is the one code that 18185 users can't call


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## TCM2007

I'm curious ozsat, you must be one of the last people in the country to put an apostrophe before "phone" - are you an ex- subeditor?


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## blindlemon

I do it too - but I'm just a pedant


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## Pete77

The 01506 421710 Livingston geographic phone number listed on the www.saynoto0870.com for reaching Sky's Tivo customer service desk was still working fine when I tested it tonight.

So I would suggest that anyone with an inclusive calls package for all calls of up to 60 minutes (either at all times or off peak or at the weekends) to numbers starting 01 and 02 has no truck at all with Sky's new ripoff revenue share number and instead keeps on calling 01506 421710. The IVR menus will sound the same as a regular call to Sky customer services but when you get through to a real live person you are greeted with "welcome to Tivo" or words to that effect.

So it seems to me that ozsat should in fact have titled this item "Sky changes ripoff CS Tivo number but 01506 421710 Still Working as Normal":up:

Also note that at the weekend 0844 actually represents a big increase over the old BT weekend call rate to 0870 of 1.5p per minute and that Sky's Tivo 0844 number now costs 5p per minute at all times plus 6p connection charge.

I'm interested to hear that Carl is a www.18185.co.uk user. So how come we never see him over on the www.saynoto0870.com discussion forum then? Unless of course like me he uses a completely different forum name over there.


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## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> I'm interested to hear that Carl is a www.18185.co.uk user. So how come we never see him over on the www.saynoto0870.com discussion forum then? Unless of course like me he uses a completely different forum name over there.


I don't see what one has to do with the other  I can still call 0870 numbers


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## Pete77

cwaring said:


> I don't see what one has to do with the other  I can still call 0870 numbers


18185 users normally dislike being ripped off by expensive phone calls and it is normally always much cheaper to find an 01/02 alternative to an 084 or 087 prefixed number on the www.saynoto0870.com website and then ring that 01/02 alternative prefixed number (at only 5p for the call however long) than to call the covert revenue share 084 or 087 prefixed phone number with 18185.

So hence the one thing and the other surely ought to be linked.

A 10 minute call to the Sky Tivo 0844 number will be 55p or so whereas a 10 minute call to their 01506 Livingston Tivo number with 18185 will only cost a grand total of 5p.


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## iankb

blindlemon said:


> I do it too - but I'm just a pedant


Me too.

Obviously, it's magazine editors who are responsible for reducing the quality of the English language.


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## TCM2007

How far do you take it; do you write 'bus? I've seen it done.


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## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> 18185 users normally dislike being ripped off by expensive phone calls...


Yep. VM's call charges are way too high for a low user like myself where an inclusive calls package is too expensive. Hence my use of 18185. I don't really care about 0870 numbers. I don't call them if I can help it, but I don't not call them


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## Pete77

cwaring said:


> I don't really care about 0870 numbers. I don't call them if I can help it, but I don't not call them


I found I did have to call 084/7 numbers more once upon a time but now www.saynoto0870.com has been such a success there is usually an 01/02 alternative available.

I would generally now try avoiding becoming a new customer of any organisations using 084/7 numbers who do not at least have an alternative number shown on the www.saynoto0870.com website or alternatively deal with them only by email or through their Contact Us form (unfortunately many such companies then fail to reply to their emails). Obviously Tivo used to be especially bad in that regard in there was no alternative for 0870 and Sky did not provide any ability to contact their Tivo CS desk by email or an online form. Happily there is now the 01506 number and I dare say if one used the online "contact us" form at www.sky.com and headed the communication "For The Attention of the Tivo Helpdesk" that it might well be passed on to the correct place at Sky HQ.


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## blindlemon

However did I guess that this thread would end up in a discussion of premium rate numbers? I must be psychic!


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## Pete77

blindlemon said:


> However did I guess that this thread would end up in a discussion of premium rate numbers? I must be psychic!


Surely that was pretty much guaranteed by the subject line of the thread given the type of new customer service number that Sky have chosen for Tivo in the UK.

Indeed from the number changing on precisely the same date as all other Sky contact phone numbers it would appear that Tivo failed to impose any form of control over the phone number used by Sky in their contract with them to provide a UK Tivo customer support desk.

Strange isn't it how these American companies always use 0800 back home (Microsoft for instance) but then have no problem with allowing the citizens of the old mother country to be telephonically ripped off.


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## chimaera

TCM2007 said:


> How far do you take it; do you write 'bus? I've seen it done.


Strictly speaking, both phone and bus are in the dictionary in their own right, therefore it can't be pedantry because they are equally correct without the apostrophe. Maybe it's just eccentricity


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## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> Surely that was pretty much guaranteed by the subject line of the thread


No - I think it was pretty much guaranteed by the fact that you are obsessed with pointing out the evils of 0870 numbers!

Oh, and just for the record, and because this thread can hardy go any further off topic - hehe  - I have one too now - 0870 383 4756 - "the hotline to TiVo Heaven" 

//waits for Pete to find a geographic alternative and add it to saynoto0870....


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## cwaring

[Pete77 mode]
You couldn't get an 03 number?
[/Pete77 mode]


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## blindlemon

cwaring said:


> [Pete77 mode]
> You couldn't get an 03 number?
> [/Pete77 mode]


But that would go against my monopolistic mega-capitalist philosophy


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## johala_reewi

blindlemon said:


> But that would go against my monopolistic mega-capitalist philosophy


You missed out. You should have gone for 0871


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## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> It appears that whoever originally allocated the UK's exchange codes was clearly not at all superstitious about the number of the devil/beast (666) although I am surprised there have not so far been successful protests that have forced the code for Malmesbury to be changed.


Maybe the residents of that area are actually quite sane and sensible and not at all worried about stupid things like that 


Pete77 said:


> As Carl so knowledeably points out (despite previously claiming not to frequent the saynoto0870.com discussion forum)


And I don't. I just know this stuff. It's not exactly a secret that only certain people know about 



Pete77 said:


> However for a small one man business I can see no reason whatsoever to use anything other than a traditional 01/02 geographic phone number.


Again without referencing any particular forums, I think it's probably because why incur the added expense of an extra phone-line when one can simply map a non-descript 087x/084x number onto one's own home phone.

I really am quite knowledgeable on a variety of subjects 



Pete77 said:


> In any case I have bad news for megacapitalist Tivoheaven


You do know he was taking the pee, right? 



Pete77 said:


> I cannot actually understand why any business thinks it is clever to make their valued customers pay premium rates to call them when the majority of the additional call cost to the customer actually goes in to the pocket of the greedy intermediate telco.


This all goes back to when these 08xx codes were introduced. I'm sure you're old enough to remember, Pete 

_At the time_ calls were still being charged either by the minute or in 3-minute chunks I can't quite recall. However, the point being that calling these 08xx number were (I think) cheaper and also - in the case of 084x - provided a 'local' number for national companies.

Of course, that was then... etc. Things are now changing; again.


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## Pete77

cwaring said:


> I just know this stuff (03 number range). It's not exactly a secret that only certain people know about


I think only a tiny percentage (less than 1%) of UK residents are actually currently aware of the new 03 number range or the fact that calls to these numbers are meant to be on the same basis as calls to numbers starting 01 and 02. Unfortunately neither Post Office Homephone or www.yourcalls.net yet seem to have chosen to become aware of Ofcom's new General Condition requiring this or the need to comply with it and instead are charging calls to numbers starting 03 at g6 multimedia rate.



> Again without referencing any particular forums, I think it's probably because why incur the added expense of an extra phone-line when one can simply map a non-descript 087x/084x number onto one's own home phone.


So if Tivoheaven wants to rely on outdated PSTN technology to do this then why not get an 03 number and let their business pay for the extra convenience of being able to redirect calls elsewhere. Also why didn't TivoHeaven get a somewhat cheaper than 0870 (but not cheaper at all from a mobile phone) 0845 number if they only wished for the convenience of hiding their normal home phone number and/or being able to redirect calls without any cost to them. I suggest only because they wanted to milk their customers for the extra 2p or 3p per minute revenue share.



> You do know he was taking the pee, right?


Wrong. If you check Contact Us on his website you will see he was in deadly earnest about ripping his customers off with an 0870 contact phone number.


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## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> I think only a tiny percentage (less than 1%) of UK residents are actually currently aware of the new 03 number range ...


Wow! I really am a smarty-pants 



Pete77 said:


> So if Tivoheaven wants to rely on outdated PSTN technology ...


Like the majority of us, I suspect. Of course, _you_ will have a VOIP number, don't you?



Pete77 said:


> ...why not get an 03 number and let their business pay for the extra convenience of being able to redirect calls elsewhere.


I don't think he's doing it as his main income, is he? Or am I confusing him with another forum member offering a similar service?  Either way, perhaps 03 numbers are more expensive? I _really_ don't know.


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## blindlemon

**** you Pete. You have gone too far this time. Take that number down immediately.


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## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> I cannot actually understand why any business thinks it is clever to make their valued customers pay premium rates to call them when the majority of the additional call cost to the customer actually goes in to the pocket of the greedy intermediate telco.


I used to use an 0709 personal number which costs something like 30p per minute, so I changed it to an 0870 number because that doesn't cost me anything and yet is moderately priced compared to some of the alternatives. *I make absolutely no money from that number* - any profit goes to the teleco I obtained it from.

Both the 0709 and the 0870 numbers can be automatically routed to either my home phone or my mobile so that customers can contact me wherever I am. I don't think that an 0870 number is that much of an imposition and I am happy to give a landline number to any customer who requests one - I did so just yeterday in fact 

If anybody can find me a provider who offers a cheaper-to-call redirectable number that doesn't cost me anything then I will happily make that available to my customers too.


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## Pete77

blindlemon said:


> **** you Pete. You have gone too far this time. Take that number down immediately.


I didn't even know you were using an 0870 number under Contact Us on your website until you chose to waive the proverbial red rag at the bull.

What exactly did you think would be the likely outcome of doing so given that you already know the strength of my views about businesses who misuse 0870 numbers and then relying on hoodwinking the public in to thinking that they are National Rate when they are not and they are in fact disguised premium rate (check the dictionary definition of premium).

You even challenged me to list the geographic alternative number on the www.saynoto0870.com website!

I suppose you thought that as your home phone number was listed against another member of your household I would not be able to trace it, even though the number is not even ex directory. You clearly reckoned without websites like www.192.com and www.tracesmart.co.uk who link people up who are at the same address on the publicly available version of the electoral register.

By the way my PM Inbox now has empty space free if you wish to PM me on this subject. I take it from your outraged tones that I have successfully managed to list a number that arrives at your residence. However if there is a number that is more suitable for Tivoheaven then please do list it so that I can remove the originally listed number and list the more suitable geographic alternative number on the www.saynoto0870.com website.:up:


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## blindlemon

You are obsessed with 0870 numbers and have no comprehension of when you are overstepping the mark. I've had it with you Pete.

As I posted above, I made the 0870 number available because the previous number was very expensive indeed. So I was actually trying to make it cheaper for my customers to call me!

Not every business is in quite the same league as Sky or some of your other hate targets Pete, and we can't all afford to provide 0800 numbers (or 03 or whatever the latest version is) for people to ring us up and make lengthy enquiries at *our *expense that might not (often don't actually) result in a sale.

Please direct your ire at a more deserving target in future. Posting my private phone number in this thread is just a step too far. Sorry.

ps. Apologies to anybody else reading this thread. Pete is an idiot and while I manage to tolerate him most of the time, this was just too much.


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## OzSat

Any further cases of publishing individuals telephone numbers without prior consent will result in a ban!

It is against forum rules!


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## blindlemon

Thanks Ozsat. Nice to see order restored.


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## Pete77

You can get a free of charge (no set up or ongoing fee) 0845 phone number at:-

www.nktelecom.co.uk/numsel.php

The BT weekday daytime call rate to 0845 is now 2p per minute rather than 6p per minute for 0870 but still the same high cost from mobiles unfortunately. However I doubt you will get an 0845 number that will redirect for free to your mobile phone. A free 0845 number will only redirect to a normal 01/02 landline number for free because the call cost is not enough to provide the free onward mobile phone forwarding.

However your best bet would be to get an 01666 Malmesbury voip number from www.sipgate.co.uk

These numbers have a nil allocation, setup and running cost and all you need to receive phone calls is a voip telephone handset plugged in to a USB port on your computer. These handsets cost as little as £5, although a decent one may cost £20.

You can then receive calls on this number anywhere in the world as long as you have a computer device that can receive voip phone calls that use the SIP protocol with you.

Regarding your 0870 number there are several companies that would have given you up to 3p per minute revenue share for a number than only redirects to a landline but if you want free redirection to a mobile on your 0870 and the 0870 to be free then I doubt anyone will pay a revenue share on that.

I am still shocked to think that you ever used an 070 so called personal number for customers to contact you as these are nothing other than a complete and utter ripoff. £18 to £21 per hour call cost. Ultimately of course its your business and you can run it how you want but I can only note that your main competitor lets people call him for the price of a normal 01 UK phone call.:up:

If you really want to do the right thing for your customers then you get an 0800 number for £4.95 set up cost from http://0800.uk2numbers.co.uk with incoming call charges at 2.19p per minute to a landline.


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## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> I am still shocked to think that you ever used an 070 so called personal number for customers to contact you as these are nothing other than a complete and utter ripoff. £18 to £21 per hour call cost.


Yes, they are expensive, but very useful as they can be redirected to any number (including international) at no cost to the person being called. However, as I don't need that functionality any longer I changed to an alternative that is cheaper for people calling me.



Pete77 said:


> If you really want to do the right thing for your customers then you get an 0800 number for £4.95 set up cost from http://0800.uk2numbers.co.uk with incoming call charges at 2.19p per minute to a landline.


A lot of people who call me about their TiVos are not my customers and never become my customers and - believe it or not - I also get quite a few calls from people who find my site when they are looking for the UK TiVo site! I cannot afford to pay for people to call me or to get a second landline just for TiVo related calls, and as I'm not prepared to give out my private landline I think that the 0870 number (or an 0845 if I can get one that redirects to mobiles) is a reasonable compromise, especially as I'm not making any money from the calls.

Believe it or not Pete, not everybody is as paranoid about paying 6p per minute as you are


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## Pete77

blindlemon said:


> Believe it or not Pete, not everybody is as paranoid about paying 6p per minute as you are


One call of 20 minutes at 6p per minute +6p connection on a weekday to a number that should have been in my 01/02 calls package (at £3.50 per month for all 01/02 calls at all times of up to 60 minutes) will cost me £1.26 per call.

£1.26 x 260 days per year = £315

OK some calls are to 0845 numbers, which are a bit less but still outside my calls package, and some are to 0844 at 5p per minute. But given how many businesses use them it is not very hard to need to make 20 minutes of calls a day to 084/7 numbers is it.

I don't suppose you will find Mike calling 084/7 numbers with abandon as you seem willing to do. Perhaps that is why he is able to offer many of his services at a lower price than Tivoheaven.


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## SPR

Does anybody know if the new TiVo CS number will also be free to Sky Talk customers as the other Sky numbers are?


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## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> I don't suppose you will find Mike calling 084/7 numbers with abandon as you seem willing to do.


Why don't you let Mike speak for himself if he can be bothered to respond to your tedious rants?

Your habit of making assumptions about people's actions and motives, and implying that people agree with your rabid assertions _when they have never actually said any such thing_ is one of the most irritating things about you.



Pete77 said:


> Perhaps that is why he is able to offer many of his services at a lower price than Tivoheaven.


Oh, apart from the fact that you seem totally unable to appreciate the value of anything unless it also happens to be the _very cheapest_ available regardless of quality, level of customer service, or whatever. I bet if somebody started offering 'Chinomax' drives for TiVo use at a fiver including shipping from Timbuktu with zero support, zero warranty and zero customer service you'd immediately start recommending them as the next best thing since sliced bread too and begin digging at both Mike and myself for "ripping off" our customers with our outrageous monopolistic prices! Really, I do.

Before you start misquoting me I want to make it clear that I'm not making *any* dig at Mike here, but the fact that he currently _happens _to be offering a couple of drives for a few £ less than me seems to _automatically_ cause you to recommend his service (even though you have never bought anything from _either_ of us!) and to make continual digs at me for my "high" prices.

At the end of the day, not everybody bases their buying decisions 100% on price - if that were the case then many very well-known retailers (eg. Harrods, Waitrose, M&S) would have gone out of business decades ago.


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## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> But given how many businesses use them it is not very hard to need to make 20 minutes of calls a day to 084/7 numbers is it.


I think you've just given us a peek into the private world of Pete.

For the record Pete, to be spending_ 20 minutes a day_ calling helplines/customer services departments is not just unusual, it's way into the realms of obsessive behaviour. That is not typical, or indeed normal. Maybe you should seek professional help.

I guess we shouldn't be surprised.


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## Pete77

Actually I rarely buy Value or Basics lines at supermarkets because product quality is usually unacceptably low. I generally buy the best value for money intermediate range. Same thing with electronic goods where the bottom spec in a model range is usually inadequate but the very top model normally commands an unreasonable premium price disproportionate to the additional features provided. I actually have a Miele washer/dryer that I purchased (admittedly in better paid days) that surely should undermine some of the assumptions you have clearly made about myself.

I do not need to make any assumptions to know that for me as a consumer 084/7 numbers are a ripoff where I pay more to call precisely the same retailer as if I use their 01/02 geographic alternative. That is simply a fact of mathematics.

You have also previously strongly criticised Mike for his use of Maxtor drives but Mike has justified his choice by pointing out that drive quality is often model and not manufacturer specific and that this Maxtor model is up to the required specification for Tivo use.

I shop at Waitrose sometimes but stick to the 50% or so of their product lines that are much the same price as at Tesco or Sainsbury. The other 50% of theri product lines cost around 100% more than Tesco or Sainsbury for what, in 8 out of 10 cases, is actually a product of precisely the same quality.

Calling an 0845 or 0870 number does not give me a better quality phone connection it merely costs me more money.


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Maybe you should seek professional help.


You clearly seem to feel free to ignore the very forum rules that everyone expects that I should abide by. I'm sure there is a rule against any comments deliberately intended to be derisive of other forum members.

You wrongly assume 084/7 numbers are to customer service departments but they are not and in fact they now cover almost all aspects of day to day interaction with companies on the telephone.


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## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> You wrongly assume 084/7 numbers are to customer service departments but they are not and in fact they now cover almost all aspects of day to day interaction with companies on the telephone.


My comment stands. That's more time "interacting with companies on the phone" than is healthy.


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> My comment stands. That's more time "interacting with companies on the phone" than is healthy.


Only because you are one of those corporatist profit focused types who thinks the only role of a customer is to buy things and that they should not be allowed to raise any issues with a company about defective products or services.

No doubt that is why you like 0870 numbers in the hope that you will be able to prevent them from doing so.


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## TCM2007

No, my comment was from the perspective of a customer, who would be surprised if he spent 20 minutes a month talking to companies on the phone.

I've just moved house, which is probably the most phone call generating activity there is, and I doubt it totalled more than an hour or two.

Spending that amount of time on the phone to companies every day is just weird.

Spending that amount of time on the phone each day because of "defective products or services" is either someone suffering the most appalling bad luck, or someone who looks for problems because they enjoy complaining. I know which I think it is.

The amount you quote 0871 costing is more than my annual phone bill including line rental. Like I said, not normal.


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## TCM2007

I just checked my phone bill online. This calendar year up until last Friday I made 10 calls to 0870 numbers for a total of 10 mins and a cost of under a pound. Anyone else care to contribute their figures?


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## cwaring

Not really. Got far better (and more productive) things to do with my time


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> I just checked my phone bill online. This calendar year up until last Friday I made 10 calls to 0870 numbers for a total of 10 mins and a cost of under a pound. Anyone else care to contribute their figures?


That would be impossible since a 1 minute call to an 0870 number is now 12p and BT have a 6p connection charge and round up to the nearest whole minute. So 10 calls would have to cost you £1.20, even if they all lasted less than 60 seconds each.

And when did anyone else in this forum have a call to an 0870 number that lasted than at least 10 minutes because there is usually a 5 minute queue and then a long security identification procedure and so on and so forth.

Your view about 0870 call centres is so rose tinted as to be beyond belief.

Or did you mean less than £1 per call x 10. To be honest that is the only thing I think you can mean as your suggestion that ten 0870 calls cost less than £1 in total simply cannot be true.


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## Pete77

cwaring said:


> Not really. Got far better (and more productive) things to do with my time


Such as watching 4 hours of television per night perhaps.

No doubt this would again qualify as "not normal" in TCM's dictatorial view of what is "normal" and what is "not normal" in the world.


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## Pete77

Oh and by the way could TCM give us a total for all calls starting 084 or 087 and not just 0870.

Also when he says the calendar year does he mean since the 1st of January or looking back over a full 12 calendar months?


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## Pete77

Of course some of us have to use our residential phone line for all our calls.

I think an inspection of TCM's total phone bill from work to numbers starting 084/7 and especially the cost of such calls also no doubt made on his company provided mobile phone would be especially instructive.

Typically busy company people do not make 084/7 calls from home and make them all from work and then spend their modest amounts of leisure time away from home hurtling around spending large amounts of money on things like weekend jaunts abroad.

Hence home is not where their 084/7 calls are made from..........


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## mikerr

Well I wasn't going to post in this thread since it degenerated somewhat, but...


Pete77 said:


> I don't suppose you will find Mike calling 084/7 numbers with abandon as you seem willing to do.


TBH they don't bother me at all when I have to ring one 
and often don't bother looking for a saynoto0870 alternative.. guess I'm lazy

I doubt it would impact sales if I did change to an 0870 - apart from giving certain people a heart attack 

Generally everyone that rings is just happy that their 7 year old tivo can still be repaired / upgraded without much fuss....


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## blindlemon

mikerr said:


> it degenerated somewhat


Now there's a surprise... 



mikerr said:


> I doubt it would impact sales if I did change to an 0870 - apart from giving certain people a heart attack


Hey Mike, let's both get 09xx numbers and get rid of him once and for all 



mikerr said:


> Generally everyone that rings is just happy that their 7 year old tivo can still be repaired / upgraded without much fuss....


Exactly - and that's what it's all about. Whether they're paying 2p, 6p or even 30p per minute is not normally important to somebody whose TiVo has just gone into a GSOD for the first time in 7 years!

FWIW, I haven't noticed _any _difference in the amount or duration of calls since I swapped from the 30p/min 0709 number to the 0870 one I have now, and I sincerely doubt if I would see any difference if I went over to an 0800 number either, although if you'd like to foot the bill for it Pete then I would be happy to test it out for you


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## Pete77

blindlemon said:


> Hey Mike, let's both get 09xx numbers and get rid of him once and for all


When did I ever telephone either of you?

Still is you want to get rid of all your other actual customers by switching to an 09 number then don't let me try and stop you.


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## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> When did I ever telephone either of you?
> 
> Still is you want to get rid of all your other actual customers by switching to an 09 number then don't let me try and stop you.


It was a joke. Duh!

Mike suggested that him switching to an 0870 number would give you a heart attack, so I proposed a *tongue-in-cheek* quick and easy solution to your continual ranting and sniping.

If you actually think either of us would be asinine enough to switch to 09 numbers then you are clearly even further out of touch with reality than most of us already think.

Oh yes, and I believe *I am* speaking for the rest of the forum members here too, unlike you.


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## Pete77

blindlemon said:


> Mike suggested that him switching to an 0870 number would give you a heart attack, so I proposed a *tongue-in-cheek* quick and easy solution to your continual ranting and sniping.


Many people consider businesses who use 0870 numbers to be asinine. It seems you arrange the facts to fit in with your own point of view.


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## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> Your view about 0870 call centres is so rose tinted as to be beyond belief.


And yours, of course, are exactly the opposite. That suggests, to me at least, that the truth must lie somewhere in the middle 



Pete77 said:


> Such as watching 4 hours of television per night perhaps.


Well, in a day maybe; but not per night 


Pete77 said:


> No doubt this would again qualify as "not normal" in TCM's dictatorial view of what is "normal" and what is "not normal" in the world.


There you go again, speaking for other people. I think you'd get along a lot better in here if you didn't do that, you know 



Pete77 said:


> Many people consider businesses who use 0870 numbers to be asinine.


Actually, I think many people never actually give it much thought. I know I don't.


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## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> That would be impossible since a 1 minute call to an 0870 number is now 12p and BT have a 6p connection charge and round up to the nearest whole minute. So 10 calls would have to cost you £1.20, even if they all lasted less than 60 seconds each.


Really Pete?

Here are ALL of my 0870 calls this calendar year:

03 MAY 16:00 08705 8454xx 00:03:21 0.230
09 MAY 12:20 08700 6675xx 00:02:57 0.210
12 MAY 09:47	08706 0703xx 00:01:15 0.120
23 MAY 14:52 08704 6045xx 00:00:07 0.060
29 Feb 11:36 08707 0496x 0000:00:25 0.075
01 Mar 08:49 08707 0496xx 0000:01:06 0.110
01 Mar 08:50 08700 9794xx 0000:01:03 0.070

12p minimum? Seems not...

Seems your knowledge of how 0870 works is not as exhaustive as you think...


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Really Pete?
> 
> Here are ALL of my 0870 calls this calendar year:
> 
> 03 MAY 16:00 08705 8454xx 00:03:21 0.230
> 09 MAY 12:20 08700 6675xx 00:02:57 0.210
> 12 MAY 09:47	08706 0703xx 00:01:15 0.120
> 23 MAY 14:52 08704 6045xx 00:00:07 0.060
> 29 Feb 11:36 08707 0496x 0000:00:25 0.075
> 01 Mar 08:49 08707 0496xx 0000:01:06 0.110
> 01 Mar 08:50 08700 9794xx 0000:01:03 0.070
> 
> 12p minimum? Seems not...
> 
> Seems your knowledge of how 0870 works is not as exhaustive as you think...


Looks like a quarter's worth of calls to me and not a calendar year's worth then. Also like I said I bet your mobile phone bill or the bill for calls at your office to 084/7 numbers would make for interesting reading. You also haven't disclosed all calls to numbers beginning 084 and 087 as I requested.

BT now charges 6p connection and 6p per minute (rounded up to the nearest minute) to 0870, other phone companies (including those where you use the BT line but pay your line rental and/or calls elsewhere) have their own rates, many with a lower connection fee but a higher rate per minute.

I still fail to see how your average call duration to these call centres is around 1 minute and your maximum call length only just over 3 minutes when most of these call centres have a queue that is longer than that to even reach a person on the other end of the line.


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> Actually, I think many people never actually give it much thought. I know I don't.


Which is what the scammers who run these lines rely on and why they make so much money out of these call centres.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Looks like a quarter's worth of calls to me and not a calendar year's worth then.


No, that's all calls from Jan 1st to yesterday.



> Also like I said I bet your mobile phone bill or the bill for calls at your office to 084/7 numbers would make for interesting reading. You also haven't disclosed all calls to numbers beginning 084 and 087 as I requested.


Maybe a few, but I'm sure our office manager would be down on me like a tonne of brinks if it was significant!

I think there were a couple of calls to 0844 and none to any other 087x number.



> BT now charges 6p connection and 6p per minute (rounded up to the nearest minute) to 0870, other phone companies (including those where you use the BT line but pay your line rental and/or calls elsewhere) have their own rates, many with a lower connection fee but a higher rate per minute.


I've listed several calls above which are under 12p. Are you calling me a liar or saying BT have got my bill wrong?



> I still fail to see how your average call duration to these call centres is around 1 minute and your maximum call length only just over 3 minutes when most of these call centres have a queue that is longer than that to even reach a person on the other end of the line.


Maybe they know you number so well by now they just don't answer it....


----------



## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> Which is what the scammers who run these lines rely on and why they make so much money out of these call centres.


I get maybe 2 or 3 calls a day, averaging between 2 and 10 minutes duration.

Even if I was getting the maximum of 3p per minute (which I don't as I don't have a revenue share agreement with the teleco) I would be making a maximum of 90p per day from calls....

*Doh! That's where I've been going wrong *

I'm gonna change my teleco in the morning, start scamming my customers out of 3p per minute and retire to the Cayman Islands on the profits within a year! :up::up::up: 

Thanks Pete - I was wondering how I was going to make it rich - now I know....


----------



## PaulWilkinsUK

*loody hell fire !! 

Pete77 for heavens sake give it up will ya !

I think we've got the point. Sky CS have changed their number. We've now got that piece of information. 

ITS NO BIG DEAL OK!!! GET A GRIP!!!


----------



## Pete77

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> Sky CS have changed their number. We've now got that piece of information.


We are now discussing the nature of the number they used to use and the one they have now changed to and the cost of calling this type of number (Non Geographic Special Rate Services according to BT).

If you aren't interested in this subject then you don't have to read this thread.


----------



## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> Also note that at the weekend 0844 actually represents a big increase over the old BT weekend call rate to 0870 of 1.5p per minute and that Sky's Tivo 0844 number now costs 5p per minute at all times plus 6p connection charge.


Why on earth does it matter?

Everybody knows that big corporations, retailers and government make money from NGNs - so what's the big deal?

At least TiVo still _has_ a Customer Service Number...! 



Pete77 said:


> The 01506 421710 Livingston geographic phone number listed on the www.saynoto0870.com for reaching Sky's Tivo customer service desk was still working fine when I tested it tonight.


Great. So anybody who is that bothered about it, and who reads this thread, can use the Livingston number instead. Thanks.


----------



## Pete77

blindlemon said:


> At least TiVo still _has_ a Customer Service Number...!


We would all be a lot better off if Tivo finally cut the Apron Strings with Sky and supported their remaining UK customers directly from Aviso with either a normal USA or alternatively an international Freephone number (00 800).

I would have little problem calling a normal USA number (00 1) as I can do that for only 1p per minute. I'm sure Sky heavily overcharge for running a UK Tivo call centre where they frequently fail to remedy more complex customer problems on Tivos because they do not really understand the nature of the technical fault.

I know there is the time difference but 9am to 5am in Aviso is 5pm to 1am in the UK. I think most remaining UK Tivo customers would be perfectly happy if 5pm to 1am were the only hours during which they could call Tivo for support. After all this is when most customers are actually likely to be using their Tivos.



> Everybody knows that big corporations, retailers and government make money from NGNs - so what's the big deal?


I prefer to deal with those companies who do not abuse their customers with NGNs or at least only with those companies where there is an alternative available. Unfortunately Sky is one of a small number of companies who have been known to regularly close down any geographic numbers on which they start to get a substantial number of incoming calls. Fortunately the number of calls they now receive about Tivo are not very large (so this alternative number may not get closed down).

If it didn't matter to quite a lot of people then presumably there wouldn't be a rather active website exclusively dedicated to discussing and providing the geographic alternatives to these 084/7 numbers.


----------



## PaulWilkinsUK

Pete77 said:


> We are now discussing the nature of the number they used to use and the one they have now changed to and the cost of calling this type of number (Non Geographic Special Rate Services according to BT).
> 
> If you aren't interested in this subject then you don't have to read this thread.


Why dont you create a new thread then? Moaning about 0870 numbers.
Quite frankly I've called CS probably equal to the number of fingers on my hand (thats four) therefore I really don't give a flying f**k how much they charge for it. 
If you spend your entire life calling CS then I expect it costs a fair bit. 
To be honest Pete, I think you're just a bit obsessed.


----------



## cwaring

Everyone needs a hobby


----------



## SPR

Way back in post #31 I asked if anybody knew if Sky Talk subscribers get TiVo CS free the same as the sky support numbers.

No responses but guessed that was likely to be because it got lost in the for/against premium rates stream.

Anybody know?


----------



## Pete77

SPR said:


> Way back in post #31 I asked if anybody knew if Sky Talk subscribers get TiVo CS free the same as the sky support numbers.
> 
> No responses but guessed that was likely to be because it got lost in the for/against premium rates stream.
> 
> Anybody know?


I guess you won't know for sure unless you try calling it and see what happens on your phone bill. However as its clearly another Sky number from their point of view it seems highly improbable it will not also be covered by the free calls to Sky deal.

But why take the chance. Why not call the 01506 alternative number instead as you know that definitely will be covered by your inclusive calling plan.

However I believe TalkTalk have not always honour their promises that calls to their own 0870 customer support centre number will be free of charge when called from a TalkTalk landline so its possible you might still get charged.


----------



## SPR

True - will use the geographic number just in case. Although probably fairly academic as I can't remember the last time I called them...

Can't imagine they get many calls. Perhaps I'm wrong - what do people still call them for? I've noticed a few account issues on the forum, and the odd teletext fix code but they must be fairly few and far between now?


----------



## worm

cwaring said:


> Maybe the residents of that area are actually quite sane and sensible and not at all worried about stupid things like that


As a former resident of the Malmesbury area, I can honestly say that in approx. 20 years I never once heard someone comment on the '666' thing other than in the way it was raised here - as a throwaway comment. Really, who cares?


----------



## worm

Pete77 said:


> And when did anyone else in this forum have a call to an 0870 number that lasted than at least 10 minutes because there is usually a 5 minute queue and then a long security identification procedure and so on and so forth.
> 
> Your view about 0870 call centres is so rose tinted as to be beyond belief.


Not to continue the argument...perhaps a new thread somwhere? but anyway...

I've had plenty of calls to 0870 numbers that lasted less than 10 minutes. Not all call centres are incomeptant customer-hating nests of iniquity you know, some are actually there to provide a service you know. I used to work in a Customer Support role, right next to the call centre staff, and a more dedicated, knowledgeable and helpful set of people you would be very hard-pushed to find. Of course, they didn't work for Sky or TiVo, but I think the point stands.

This is not rose-tinting, this is reality. It is easy to remember those horrible calls that left you frustrated and tearing your hair out - it is less easy to recall those that went as planned - that's just human nature.

I have in fact, on a couple of occasions, taken the time to contact companies who have impressed me with their clear, concise, timely and helpful input.


----------



## cwaring

A very good, sane and sensible post which, I'm sure will be completely lost on Pete 



SPR said:


> Can't imagine they get many calls. Perhaps I'm wrong - what do people still call them for? I've noticed a few account issues on the forum, and the odd teletext fix code but they must be fairly few and far between now?


Mainly EPG errors that need correcting.


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> Mainly EPG errors that need correcting.


Plus also of course calls from those poor unfortunate Tivo owners still paying monthly and therefore needing to update card details such as a new card's expiry date and/or a new card number or new CVV (3 digit security code on the signature strip) number.


----------



## cwaring

Except those who, more sensibly, pay by Direct Debit


----------



## TCM2007

I expect the volume is pretty low by now. I guess there are under 5,000 TiVos still in operation, based on the sub-20k start point some six or seven years ago now.


----------



## ColinYounger

> Once upon a time there were three billy goats, who were to go up to the hillside to make themselves fat, and the name of all three was "Gruff."
> 
> On the way up was a bridge over a cascading stream they had to cross; and under the bridge lived a great ugly troll , with eyes as big as saucers, and a nose as long as a poker....


Be aware of those under bridges.


----------



## Pugwash

This thread is ACE!

I have an 08701 and an 08703 number for my company. Bring it on!


----------



## PaulWilkinsUK

Pugwash said:


> This thread is ACE!
> 
> I have an 08701 and an 08703 number for my company. Bring it on!


HOOORAY !!!!


----------



## blindlemon

Pugwash said:


> Bring it on!


Capitalist!


----------



## afrokiwi

Well i just cancelled my Tivo subscription .... interestingly you cant phone the 0844 2 410 703 number (adding the international dialling code) from here in the Netherlands ... the 01506 421710 number still works. Happy days ....


----------



## Pete77

afrokiwi said:


> Well i just cancelled my Tivo subscription .... interestingly you cant phone the 0844 2 410 703 number (adding the international dialling code) from here in the Netherlands ... the 01506 421710 number still works. Happy days ....


Which is why it is so disgusting that so many GP Surgeries have now switched to using 0844 numbers missold them to by Patientline and other eager beaver capitalist ripoff merchants who put profit and a freebie for the doctor ahead of patients' lives.

What happens if you have a major medical problem while abroad and the hospital wants to contact your GP to discuss your medical history.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete makes a reasonable point about 0844 numbers. I'm going to lie down...


----------



## afrokiwi

Not sure what that has to do with Tivo CS though  ....



TCM2007 said:


> Pete makes a reasonable point about 0844 numbers. I'm going to lie down...


----------



## Pete77

afrokiwi said:


> Not sure what that has to do with Tivo CS though  ....


It was triggered I believe by your comments about the non connectability of 0844 numbers from overseas. Ofcom have acknowledged the issue caused but as usual are not diverting themselves from more important missions such as taking their 6 weeks annual leave and paying themselves large bonuses in order to hurry any changes through.

And let us not forget our UK Thomson Series 1 Tivo using friends in Germany, Sweden and elsewhere who may indeed be prevented from calling Sky Tivo customer services were they to be unaware of the existence of the unofficial 01506 alternative number. You will recall that phone is the only method for contacting Sky Tivo Customer Services in the UK.


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> You will recall that phone is the only method for contacting Sky Tivo Customer Services *in the UK*.


And that's the point. UK Tivo S1 users _should be_ in the UK. Sky and/or Tivo themselves cannot be held responsible for not being contactable from outside the UK.


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> And that's the point. UK Tivo S1 users _should be_ in the UK. Sky and/or Tivo themselves cannot be held responsible for not being contactable from outside the UK.


Have you been taking lessons in justifying the ripoff use of 0844 numbers from Network Europe Group (one of the main sellers of 0844 doctor's surgery systems) by any chance Carl.

With respect I would suggest it is actually none of Tivo's business where the units are being used to receive Tivo service as long as the customer only uses UK Tivo Guide data, pays any monthly subscription on a UK credit card or bank account and only uses a valid phone number or IP address supported by Tivo for the supply of UK EPG data.


----------



## cwaring

Naturally, you've managed to miss my point completely  Of course it shouldn't matter to Tivo; and it probably doesn't.

The point is that 084x/087x are, as far as I know, supposed to be "UK only" numbers that may, or may not, be accesible from outside the UK but, if they are, then it's a bonus, not a requirment.


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> The point is that 084x/087x are, as far as I know, supposed to be "UK only" numbers that may, or may not, be accesible from outside the UK but, if they are, then it's a bonus, not a requirment.


Your above comments are clearly not based on any proper research in to this matter.

You may therefore be interested to know that Network Europe Group (NEG) actually suggests that GPs list 0870 numbers as the alternative for calling the doctors surgeries using their service from overseas. They will not provide 01/02 numbers because of the loss of revenue they might suffer from patients based in the UK then calling them.

0870 numbers while violently expensive to call from overseas and charged at around one hundred times the rate of 01/02 numbers by a tariff like Vodafone Passport can be called from overseas most of the time, although not always. However 0844 numbers being only recently introduced are hardly diallable from overseas at all.

The only reason for the access problems is because overseas telecoms operators have learnt the hard way that if they connect calls to these numbers at normal rates and they are then violently overcharged for connecting to them so they find it easier just not to take the risk at all.

But all of this is quite unlike say Eurovision song voting lines where the premium rate numbers in question can quite deliberately only be dialled within each individual country and not from abroad to stop any nationals of any one country voting for their own country by ringing an overseas voting line.

Some true premium rate services (PRS) like Eurovision song contest lines and sex chat lines are meant to only be callable in the country of origin but this is not meant to be true of NTS numbers. Unfortunately it has become so only due to the incompetence of the UK telecoms regulator.


----------



## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> 0870 numbers while violently expensive to call from overseas and charged at around one hundred times the rate of 01/02 numbers by a tariff like Vodafone Passport can be called from overseas most of the time, although not always. However 0844 numbers being only recently introduced are hardly diallable from overseas at all.


So does this mean I'm doing the right thing for continental European TiVo owners by having an 0870 rather than an 0844 number then Pete? I've had quite a few customers from outside the UK.


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> Your above comments are clearly not based on any proper research in to this matter.


Fair enough.


----------



## Pete77

blindlemon said:


> So does this mean I'm doing the right thing for continental European TiVo owners by having an 0870 rather than an 0844 number then Pete? I've had quite a few customers from outside the UK.


You would be doing your overseas customers a much bigger favour still by quoting an 01666 number.

Still I'm sure that you would much rather that the penny pinching Tivo upgrading customer found their way to your competitor at LidlCentral while you clearly differentiate your marketing proposition by establishing yourself as WaitroseHeaven.


----------



## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> You would be doing your overseas customers a much bigger favour still by quoting an 01666 number.
> 
> Still I'm sure that you would much rather that the penny pinching Tivo upgrading customer found their way to your competitor at LidlCentral while you clearly differentiate your marketing proposition by establishing yourself as WaitroseHeaven.


As I've said before I see no reason to publish my personal phone number on the internet and I don't make nearly enough from TiVo upgrades (despite your repeated jibes about my 'monopolistic' prices) to afford a separate line.

As it is I usually get a couple of calls a day on my 0870 number, but since I introduced it only *one* customer has asked for an geographical alternative which I was happy to give him. Was he a friend of yours, Pete, or maybe your good self? I seem to remember he never actually _bought _anything from me...


----------



## Pete77

blindlemon said:


> As it is I usually get a couple of calls a day on my 0870 number, but since I introduced it only *one* customer has asked for an geographical alternative which I was happy to give him. Was he a friend of yours, Pete, or maybe your good self? I seem to remember he never actually _bought _anything from me...


No it wasn't me who called.

I did think of asking your advice about my second Tivo that I foolishly managed to alter the IP address on to 192.168.1.257 before realising too late that any number over 255 is not allowed in an IP number.

But I think I know the answer there is that I have to pull the drive and run the Silicon Dust CD attached to a PC. I can't see any other way round it. Anyhow I thought you would enjoy a good laugh at my expense knowing that I had made such an elementary mistake that would never be made by a master of Tivos such as your good self.


----------



## TCM2007

You might try 192.168.1.1 - it's possible that it "clocks" over.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> You might try 192.168.1.1 - it's possible that it "clocks" over.


Thanks for your helpful suggestion TCM.

I'm away from home for a couple of days at present but fingers crossed that this may work when I try this out upon my return later in the week.


----------



## blindlemon

TCM2007 said:


> You might try 192.168.1.1 - it's possible that it "clocks" over.


My hex math is a little rusty, but wouldn't that make it 192.168.1.2?


----------



## TCM2007

255 + 1 = 0
255 + 2 = 1


----------



## Pete77

I will try both suggestions. Thank you both for your assistance.


----------



## blindlemon

tcm2007 said:


> 255 + 1 = 0
> 255 + 2 = 1


257 Mod 255 = 2


----------



## TCM2007

IP addresses run 0-255 not 1-256

Probably won't work anyway!


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> IP addresses run 0-255 not 1-256
> 
> Probably won't work anyway!


I have just tried to telnet to the Tivo with 192.168.1.1, 192.168.1.2, 192.168.2.1 and 192.168.2.2 without any success. Does anyone have any other suggestions using Angry IP Scanner or a similar utility?

Or is the likelihood that the Tivo now just has no allocated IP address of any kind through which it can be accessed?


----------



## TCM2007

That's most likely, yes.


----------



## johnnye

Have you tried the old IP address or 192.168.1.255? I would have thought that the software could ignore the change completely, limit the segment to 255 max, apply a binary filter (which would give the 192.168.1.1 - but you say you've tried that) or set an invalid IP address in which case you're stuffed.


----------



## Pete77

johnnye said:


> Have you tried the old IP address or 192.168.1.255? I would have thought that the software could ignore the change completely, limit the segment to 255 max, apply a binary filter (which would give the 192.168.1.1 - but you say you've tried that) or set an invalid IP address in which case you're stuffed.


doh. It turns out it was still set to the old IP address of 192.168.0.7 like you suggested. Why didn't I think of that. It was just that after it accepted and let me save the new IP address I thought that it had to have changed it to that. Then I found 192.168.1.257 does not exist as an IP address.............

Thank you very much for your help in spotting my elementary mistake.


----------



## Pete77

Drat, drat and double drat.

I tried changing the network gateway or whatever its called to 192.168.1.254 that is also the address of the router at my mum's house and now I can't access the Tivo at all on 192.168.0.7

I have tried setting up another dhcp pool from 192.168.0.1 to 192.168.0.63 etc on the same subnet as the the existing "lan private" on the Speedtouch 680 (BeBox firmware) but no luck. I now have no access to the Tivo via Telnet or FTP on 192.168.0.7.

I suspect I am a victim of the dreaded nic_config_tivo double key bounce syndrome and the subnet on the Tivo has now changed to something quite ridiculous that is not compatible with the router. I have tried Angry IP Scanner scanning between 192.168.0.1 and 192.168.1.255 but no joy there.

Can anyone suggest any way I may now get out of this nightmare without buying another desktop PC (old one is broken) pulling the drive and running the Silicon Dust CD? Or does anyone have an old desktop PC they no longer need and want to donate to me?


----------



## 6022tivo

Pete77 said:


> Can anyone suggest any way I may now get out of this nightmare without buying another desktop PC (old one is broken) pulling the drive and running the Silicon Dust CD? Or does anyone have an old desktop PC they no longer need and want to donate to me?


----------



## RichardJH

Or this http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/05/14/free_pcs_for_the_poor/


----------



## RichardJH

I suppose you could send the hard drive to a well known Tivo person and ask them to only charge you an hourly rate


----------



## OzSat

Perhaps there was a change of heart - as the old number still works but the new number does not!


----------



## a_tivo_noob

we all still happy that *01506 421710 * is a valid number to use?


----------



## blindlemon

a_tivo_noob said:


> we all still happy that *01506 421710 * is a valid number to use?


You tell us: have you tried it? Did it work?


----------



## a_tivo_noob

haha, i'll get back to you - i need to clean up my 'new' box first, and check it works before ringing them with a good ol' sob story to try to get my lifetime sub transferred over to it


----------



## Pete77

a_tivo_noob said:


> we all still happy that *01506 421710 * is a valid number to use?


Well as I have unlimited calls to 01/02 numbers I called this number and found that it has a message on it saying "this service is no longer available" or words to that effect.

This is in line with Sky's general mean spirited policy of closing down all geographic alternatives for their ripoff covert premium rate numbers that are published on the www.saynoto0870.com website as this number was.

See www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1060112694/765#765

Of course as www.tivoheaven.co.uk (aka blindlemon) use an 0870 number for their phone calls from their customers I expect they have no problem with Sky's ripoff 0844 phone number policy:down:ripoff


----------



## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> Of course as www.tivoheaven.co.uk (aka blindlemon) use an 0870 number for their phone calls from their customers I expect they have no problem with Sky's ripoff 0844 phone number policy:down:ripoff


Any particular reason for that mean-spirited dig Pete? Apart from just general mean-spiritedness, of course 

Personally, as my 0870 number was a cheapie from some web-based teleco, I don't make a cent from the calls - I expect the *huge profit* from the couple of people who call me per day goes to the teleco instead, or maybe to BT... I have no idea.

No doubt Sky have negotiated a deal whereby they retain the profits from the 1000s of calls per day they get and I agree that this is a ripoff, but to compare my business practices to theirs just because I happen to have an 0870 number is a bit disingenuous I feel.

But then, the majority of your posts on this board tend to follow the same pattern so I'm not really that surprised.

Cheers
Steve


----------



## Pete77

blindlemon said:


> Personally, as my 0870 number was a cheapie from some web-based teleco, I don't make a cent from the calls - I expect the *huge profit* from the couple of people who call me per day goes to the teleco instead, or maybe to BT... I have no idea.


The profit goes to the telco who own the number and redirect the call to you but you also profit from not paying for call redirection at your expense as an operating cost of your business as you would have to do if you had an 03 prefixed number that costs callers no extra to call but that you can redirect wherever you want to. Or you could get a Voip 01/02 geographic number on the Malmesbury exchange from www.sipgate.co.uk for free and redirect that to a Voip handset on whatever computer you happen to be using at the time for free.

You seem to use your own lack of due diligence in investigating the most cost effective telephone number arrangements for you and your customers as an excuse. I find this rather concerning when you always market your services on the basis of your own technical excellence and superiority and indeed have sent me several PMs actively knocking your competitors as not knowing what they are doing or using inferior makes of hard drives compared to you.

You clearly are profiting from using this 0870 number by transferring what should be an operating cost of your business (that should be reflected in your prices) on to customers who need to call you.


----------



## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> You clearly are profiting from using this 0870 number by transferring what should be an operating cost of your business (that should be reflected in your prices) on to customers who need to call you.


Pete, you're an idiot.

If I bought a 'free' number and added the running costs to my prices (Hmm, maybe 10p per upgrade drive?) I would be passing on the costs to _only actual customers_, most of whom don't ring me at all, as opposed to the few customers who do ring me plus the considerably larger number of random people who ring me up asking daft questions about their TiVos and then don't buy anything!

Thank God you don't run a business because I'd hate to be one of your customers! I can just imagine how that first tech support call would go.... 

Cheers
Steve


----------



## cwaring

Was going to comment but your post sums it up so nicely you saved me the bother


----------



## verses

If they choose the right time of day to do it, BT, Virgin and Talk Talk customers can all chat to Blindlemon for free;
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/phones/0870-say-no#free

Sorry BL, your call volumes might fly up now...


----------



## Pete77

verses said:


> If they choose the right time of day to do it, BT, Virgin and Talk Talk customers can all chat to Blindlemon for free;
> http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/phones/0870-say-no#free
> 
> Sorry BL, your call volumes might fly up now...


Not for long as when Ofcom shortly requires all telcos to charge 0870 numbers at 01/02 rate unless they give extra special prominence to it not being a standard rate call on all phone bills and in all call tariff sheets then most telecoms companies providing 0870 numbers will be encouraging their customers to switch to 5p per minute 0844 where no such announcements or clear indications of extra cost will be given. If they don't then they will probably start to be charged per minute for receiving calls on the 0870 number as the old revenue share deal they (the telco) enjoyed will no longer apply.

If my views are nonsense then how come there's a whole very active website and discussion forum (www.saynoto0870.com) devoted to this topic and how come the petition on the www.number10.gov.uk website for doctors and the NHS in general to stop using 084/7 numbers at http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Healthtelephone/ now has nearly 20,000 signatures (and is the 7th largest petition in terms of numbers).

blindlemon is clearly one of those people who regards any customers or potential customers who call him as a damn nuisance and so seeks to punish them by charging them a penal rate (especially from mobiles) for calling him. Of course his main competitor does not use a covert premium rate number for contacting him so market forces being what they are I assume that Tivo upgrade customers will make the choice that is most appropriate to their own financial needs and phone call package.

One of the main characteristics I have always discovered in hardened 084/7 number misusers is that they will never ever accept that they are in the wrong. If they did accept that fact they would never have selected such a ripoff phone number in the first place.


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> If my views are nonsense ..


It is your comments about - or more accurately personal attacks on the character of - blindlemon that are are completely out of order.



Pete77 said:


> blindlemon is clearly one of those people who regards any customers or potential customers who call him as a damn nuisance and so seeks to punish them by charging them a penal rate (especially from mobiles) for calling him.


Or, more accurately, he does not want to give out his personal home number and, as this is only a side-line for him and not his main business (as far as I know anyway), has made the choice to use another number. Yes, he could have opted for an 0800 number but that would probably have cost him more than he makes which, I'm sure you'll agree, is not a brilliant plan.

So he chose an option that was best for him, as it cost him nothing and meant he didn't have to give out his private home number.



Pete77 said:


> Of course his main competitor does not use a covert premium rate number for contacting him ...


It can't be that "covert" if so many people know about them there's a website dedicated to them. Make your mind up 



Pete77 said:


> .. so market forces being what they are I assume that Tivo upgrade customers will make the choice that is most appropriate to their own financial needs and phone call package.


And I'm sure BL and "his competitors" will take whatever custom comes their way and be happy with it.



Pete77 said:


> One of the main characteristics I have always discovered in hardened 084/7 number misusers is that they will never ever accept that they are in the wrong. If they did accept that fact they would never have selected such a ripoff phone number in the first place.


Given the history of 084/7 numbers (ie when they were introduced BT still had the monopoly and there was no alternative) then they didn't really have a choice. With any company starting up, you may have a point.


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## Pete77

cwaring said:


> Given the history of 084/7 numbers (ie when they were introduced BT still had the monopoly and there was no alternative) then *they didn't really have a choice*. With any company starting up, you may have a point.


They had lots of choices including 0800 numbers and also could have reviewed their choice of 0870 in the light of technological developments such as voip geographic phone numbers (eg www.sipgate.co.uk) and the launch of 03 non geographic numbers that cost the same as an 01/02 number for callers to telephone.


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## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> a whole very active website and discussion forum (www.saynoto0870.com) devoted to this topic


Wow, who knew there we so many obsessive compulsives.

That site has a section, and I'm not making this up,



> Geographical Numbers Chat
> Discuss geographical telephone numbers in general.


Still, at least sites like that round them up so they don't mostly get on to other forums. I guess they let Pete out for good behaviour.

Maybe they had a bad experience pressing button B as a child, or something else that would explain an unhealthy obsession with tiny amounts of money spent on phone calls?


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Wow, who knew there we so many obsessive compulsives.


"Obsessive compulsive" - what like those people on tivocommunity.com who spend hundreds of hours of their free time a year working out how to waste further hundreds of hours of their free time watching television programs that they could otherwise easily have skipped in favour of something far more rewarding in life. Or those particular obsessive compulsives who spents hours perfecting a hack to add a few minutes to the start and end of a recording of a program that their life would have been better off not watching in the first place.



> That site has a section, and I'm not making this up,
> 
> "Geographical Numbers Chat"


Must be their equivalent of "RSS Feed for TiVo Search Feedback - Beta Release TiVo Search Feedback - Beta Release" I would assume.

As an active member of the commercial 084/7 scam using faternity I presume you are one of those who finds it compulsory to join the conspiracy to pretend that there is nothing wrong with transforming normal phone numbers in to 084/7 numbers that are excluded from bundled minutes on mobile phones and cost up to 50p per minute to call.

Of course to a £100k+ per year man like you it may seem like only a few pence per call but to others it will see like rather more than this. Perhaps you may even be able to charge most of these calls as a business expense.


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## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> As an active member of the commercial 084/7 scam using faternity I presume you are one of those who finds it compulsory to join the conspiracy to pretend that there is nothing wrong with transforming normal phone numbers in to 084/7 numbers that are excluded from bundled minutes on mobile phones and cost up to 50p per minute to call.


You cannot blame the pricing on mobile phones on anyone except the mobile phone companies. You know... the one's who charge for calls to 0800 numbers.

Here's an idea. Don't use your mobile for calling 084/7 numbers. If you _only have_ a mobile then, again, that's your problem and no-one elses.

Incidently, I use 18185.co.uk who charge me .5ppm for 0845 calls. Not really enough to worry too much about. 



Pete77 said:


> Of course to a £100k+ per year man like you it may seem like only a few pence per call but to others it will see like rather more than this. Perhaps you may even be able to charge most of these calls as a business expense.


Firstly, where did you get his salary from? That's more than a TV Newsreader, you know  Secondly, I'm on significantly less than that (benefits) and I don't worry about calling 084/7 numbers in the slightest as I have better things to worry about.


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## ColinYounger

So let me get this straight - *01506 421710 * is not valid anymore.


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## RichardJH

Pete why don't you give out your phone number then people who want to hear your ramblings can phone you. You could even set up an answerphone with it all pre-recorded.
Then the Tivo forum could get back to its real purpose of discussing TIVO issues.


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## verses

Pete77 said:


> how come the petition on the www.number10.gov.uk website for doctors and the NHS in general to stop using 084/7 numbers at http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Healthtelephone/ now has nearly 20,000 signatures (and is the 7th largest petition in terms of numbers).


You're seriously comparing the actions of someone who provides support for a video recorder with delusions of grandeur with people who care for the general public's health and well being?!



Pete77 said:


> blindlemon is clearly one of those people who regards any customers or potential customers who call him as a damn nuisance and so seeks to punish them by charging them a penal rate (especially from mobiles) for calling him.


He doesn't *have* to provide any form of phone support, and anyone who wants free support from him only has to post here, his own forum or via email!

I too dislike 0870 numbers in general, but there's clearly a difference to someone using them in support of a part time business as a premium level of support over multinational corporations and public health bodies who keep you on hold to profiteer from them.


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## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> blindlemon is clearly one of those people who regards any customers or potential customers who call him as a damn nuisance and so seeks to punish them by charging them a penal rate (especially from mobiles) for calling him.


ROFL - your hyperbole and paranoia has really reached a new high here Pete 

And yes, people who call me up and blather for 20 minutes about something to do with their TiVo and then never buy anything from me should indeed be penalized 

Cheers
Steve


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## blindlemon

verses said:


> anyone who wants free support from him only has to post here, his own forum or via email!


True that 



verses said:


> a premium level of support.


I like that phrase and I think I'll refer to it as such in future 

So... all of you plebs on here who get it for free just became second class citizens, thanks to Pete 

Cheers
Steve


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## Johnbyte

At the risk of getting back on topic, has anyone called CS lately and can give me an up to date number? I've tried: 

01506 421710: "this service is no longer available"
08702 418486: "this number is no longer in service"
0844 2410703: "this service is no longer available"


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## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> As an active member of the commercial 084/7 scam using faternity I presume you are one of those who finds it compulsory to join the conspiracy to pretend that there is nothing wrong with transforming normal phone numbers in to 084/7 numbers that are excluded from bundled minutes on mobile phones and cost up to 50p per minute to call.


We use 0844 numbers, I'm not sure what rate we set on them, but it's no more than 5p a minute and we do list a geographic alternative for overseas customers. As has been said above, running these as 0800 or even "normal" numbers would lead to higher costs, so we'd have to pass that on in higher prices for everyone, whether they called or not. You obviously think that's fair. I don't.

If you're daft enough to call 08x numbers from a mobile phone you are plainly, well, daft.



> Of course to a £100k+ per year man like you it may seem like only a few pence per call but to others it will see like rather more than this. Perhaps you may even be able to charge most of these calls as a business expense.


I've never said how much I earn, but you're right, I don't care - because I'm with BT and 0870/0845 numbers are free!


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## cwaring

TCM2007 said:


> We use 0844 numbers..


Those I do object to as I can't use 18185 to call them and VN charge a lot  I insist you change immediately; despite the fact that I've never _actually_ called you and aren't likely to


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## a_tivo_noob

Johnbyte said:


> At the risk of getting back on topic, has anyone called CS lately and can give me an up to date number? I've tried:
> 
> 01506 421710: "this service is no longer available"
> 08702 418486: "this number is no longer in service"
> 0844 2410703: "this service is no longer available"


 i think this thread needs pruning a bit... is that all the numbers that are mentioned in this thread? is there no phone number anymore then?


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## Pete77

ColinYounger said:


> So let me get this straight - *01506 421710 * is not valid anymore.


Correct.

There are other geographic (01/02) numbers for Sky that are still working if you follow the link for the www.saynoto0870.com thread above but these are subject to regular change and/or sudden cessation by Sky. But none of them will get you through to the Sky Tivo customer service team.


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## a_tivo_noob

Pete, it seems from what John Byte posted that there are no numbers that get you through to the Sky Tivo customer service team either :s


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## DogmaLoki

I'm in the same boat. Old number gives you a new number to dial. And I can't get through on the new number (my phone says user busy, but I don't believe that... just can't get through at all, not even to a queue).

I wish to cancel my Tivo (I know I know... I've enjoyed Tivo for five years, but am finally moving on). But I can't!


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## cwaring

Just cancel the Direct Debit. They'll contact you quickly enough then


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## Pete77

DogmaLoki said:


> I'm in the same boat. Old number gives you a new number to dial. And I can't get through on the new number (my phone says user busy, but I don't believe that... just can't get through at all, not even to a queue).


Are we saying that 08702 418486 listed as the official number to call at http://uk.tivo.com/3.0.asp is also not working? Sky have replaced most of their 0870 numbers with 0844 numbers but surely Sky Tivo customer services would have noticed if they are no longer receiving any calls.

The previous discussions in this thread have all been about an unofficial 01506 alternative number listed on the www.sayonoto0870.com website

Try 01506 831609 and don't enter your number when they ask for it and that will get through to Sky's ordinary customer services. You could then ask about the non working official Tivo 0870 customer services number and there must be some way in which they can escalate the issue internally.


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## Johnbyte

Pete77 said:


> Are we saying that 08702 418486 listed as the official number to call at http://uk.tivo.com/3.0.asp is also not working? Sky have replaced most of their 0870 numbers with 0844 numbers but surely Sky Tivo customer services would have noticed if they are no longer receiving any calls.


Correct. 08702 418486 points you to the 0844 number, which, on a standard phone line, is permanently engaged. If you call via Skype, there's a message which says service not available on this number.



Pete77 said:


> The previous discussions in this thread have all been about an unofficial 01506 alternative number listed on the www.sayonoto0870.com website.


This number no longer listed on saynoto, but I did try it and it doesn't work any more either.

I've sorted out my own issue, so will leave it to DogmaLoki to try Pete's suggestion.


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## DogmaLoki

I don't have a direct debit to cancel, it's credit card. I'd rather not resort to chargebacks on that.

I don't think they have a dedicated Tivo department... just Sky people that are told to go into Tivo mode. I imagine the calls they get are infrequent.

I should probably contact Tivo US, who can kick Sky.

I called a general Sky number hoping to be patched through, but the people I spoke to didn't even know Sky provided Tivo support. One even said "Wow, Tivo is in the UK? I've only ever seen it mentioned on US TV programmes".


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## ncjok

I also want to cancel my monthly subscription to the TiVo service and am pretty annoyed none of the three numbers given in Johnbyte's earlier post (#125) are answered - especially considering one of them is printed on every bill I receive to my credit card.

As mentioned, Sky customer services don't have the foggiest who TiVo are, despite [previously] hosting TiVo CS's telephone numbers.

Questions over whether any of the information on the uk.tivo.com website is accurate - does anyone know if we can successfully contact TiVo at their PO Box in Livingston?


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## cwaring

DogmaLoki said:


> I don't have a direct debit to cancel, it's credit card. I'd rather not resort to chargebacks on that.


D'oh! I did have that thought as I typed my message 

I would call the CC company and simply explain that you cannot get in touch with the company and need to stop the payments. I'm sure they could do something.


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## JP2000

I'm in the same situation. I've just talked to my card provider and they can't stop it right now, but have raised a dispute on my last charge. Then they say that if it keeps on being charged (which it will, obviously) they can do something more about it.

One problem I can see is that I'm no longer at the address TiVo thinks I'm at.


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## Pete77

People need to PM forum member TivoPony who will have direct contacts with the relevant people at Sky UK that he needs to email or speak to in order to get a working 0844 Tivo UK CS number once again in place and/or suitably amended on the Tivo UK website.

Or you could try emailing [email protected] with cc to [email protected] asking why one of their 0844 numbers to a dedicated Sky CS Tivo team is not currently in service.

I am sure they have a telecoms manager who can investigate and rectify this as it is clearly a **** up rather than a deliberate act by Sky.


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## BrianHughes

Pete77 said:


> ...
> 
> I am sure they have a telecoms manager who can investigate and rectify this as it is clearly a **** up rather than a deliberate act by Sky.


It's not like you, Pete, to ascribe to human error something that can adequately be explained by malice.


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## hoopoe

Johnbyte said:


> At the risk of getting back on topic, has anyone called CS lately and can give me an up to date number? I've tried:
> 
> 01506 421710: "this service is no longer available"
> 08702 418486: "this number is no longer in service"
> 0844 2410703: "this service is no longer available"


For me the final 0844 number is just permanently engaged. Have lifetime subscription so can't "hurt" Sky that way.

Have Sky quietly pulled the plug on us?

So called Sky general number 01506 831609 (thanks Pete77), taking care not to enter any numbers, so got to speak to a real person, then asked for TiVo Customer Services.

On hold for 5 minutes, then told "can't find any information on, what did you call it? Is it another brand of set top box?"

On hold again after explaining Sky contractually obliged to provide support for TiVo. Then said was re-contacting colleague "to see if there's anything we can do for you". Hmmm. Not very reassuring...

On hold again, for a few more minutes, then tried to sort my problem (no programme data after 25th May) using a script he said he'd been given (repeat Guided Set Up, if no change try System Reset).

Asked general question (from all of us here, I guess) - is this the right number to call? "not really, this is for Sky Customer Services". What number should we TiVo subscribers call?

On hold again. Then put through to Jerry "who knows something about this". Then suddenly while he's talking I get put back on hold unexpectedly.
On hold for another 10 minutes, no-one gets back to me. Strange, that.

So I give up. Total call time 41 minutes.

Have we been ditched by Sky then?

Do we have any Customer Service support for our TiVos at all in the UK?


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## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> ...it is clearly a **** up rather than a deliberate act by Sky.





BrianHughes said:


> It's not like you, Pete, to ascribe to human error something that can adequately be explained by malice.


Indeed. I was just about to post something similar


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## djb2002

01506 421710 doesn't work, and the original 0870 241TIVO number, gives out the 0844 one.

Just tried the 0844 number and got connected straight through to TiVo Customer Services.

Thanks


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## cwaring

Okay. That's odd. Perhaps it was just a glitch


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## OzSat

I reported the problem to TiVo US yesterday afternoon who were looking into into.

I guess it was a glitch somewhere if its now working.


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## DogmaLoki

I can also confirm the 0844 number is working again now... I am in a queue as I type with the obnoxious "thanks for holding" message every 5 seconds drilling my brain!

I do feel very sad pulling the plug on Tivo.  An end of an era for me.


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## hoopoe

Thanks for help - glad to hear only a glitch and 0844 number working now.
Had TiVo since '01 and only just discovered this place.... Doh!
Great to feel I'm not alone


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## Pete77

The old redundant 0870 number is still being shown at http://uk.tivo.com/3.0.asp

As the website is maintained by Tivo Inc when do we expect them to get round to updating this simple but crucial item of text on on just one web page?


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## TiVoJerry

The website has been updated with the proper number.


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## djb2002

TiVoJerry said:


> The website has been updated with the proper number.


Thanks Jerry! - That must be the first update the website has had in about 5 years


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## Pete77

djb2002 said:


> Thanks Jerry! - That must be the first update the website has had in about 5 years


I'm sure that the five minutes it no doubt took to change the number on the Tivo website was a lot less trouble for TivoJerry to get by their accountants than the many man hours that TivoDataGuy and his colleagues spent on restoring Suggestions functionality.

Not of course that this prevented Tivo Inc from previously failing to invest the necessary 5 minutes and 30 US Dollars or so that was required to renew the domain name www.tivo.co.uk:(

None the less its very reassuring to see that in 2009 we UK Tivo users are now once again still being properly supported by the guys across the pond.:up:

If only the same could be said of Sky's Tivo customer service line where the couple of main remaining Tivo advisers there should surely have begun to chase up this problem internally immediately after they stopped taking any more Tivo related phone calls.:down:


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## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> I'm sure that the five minutes it no doubt took to change the number on the Tivo website was a lot less trouble for TivoJerry to get by their accountants than the many man hours that TivoDataGuy and his colleagues spent on restoring Suggestions functionality.
> 
> Not of course that this prevented Tivo Inc from previously failing to invest the necessary 5 minutes and 30 US Dollars or so that was required to renew the domain name www.tivo.co.uk:(


Oh for your own sake (pete's sake, geddit!) let it go man. It really isn't worth worrying that much about 



Pete77 said:


> None the less its very reassuring to see that in 2009 we UK Tivo users are now once again still being properly supported by the guys across the pond.:up:


Yes. They changed a number on a web-site. I feel _so_ much better now


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## Pete77

cwaring said:


> Yes. They changed a number on a web-site. I feel _so_ much better now


Actually despite being rather a small act in terms of the work required its still rather a big deal in perception terms when Tivo have changed nothing on that website (for instance they have never changed it to say that units for new customers are not available and that it is only a legacy site to support existing owners of old UK Tivo S1 units) for over six years.

On the other hand I honestly feel they had no alternative here as to fail to update the phone number that allowed paying customers to continue paying them and/or to stop paying them would have been blatantly negligent, especially when Tivo have never sent out any postal communications to customers other than the original confirmation of lifetime subscription letter.


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## OzSat

I'm glad Pete's happy now


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## Pete77

ozsat said:


> I'm glad Pete's happy now


And I'm pleased to hear that our esteemed forum moderator is also happy that I'm now happy.

The main thing is that the broken 0844 number has now been fixed by Sky and the incorrect 0870 number on the Tivo website replaced with the 0844 number so UK Tivo users (especially those still paying a monthly sub who often have good practical reason to contact Tivo to do with changing payment card details) will still know how to contact them.

I'm also pleased that TivoPony, TivoJerry and TivoDataGuy have also gone to so much personal trouble to help sort out issues affecting UK S1 Tivo users in recent months.:up::up::up:


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## OzSat

Time for a group hug


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## TiVoJerry

Pete77 said:


> I'm also pleased that TivoPony, TivoJerry and TivoDataGuy have also gone to so much personal trouble to help sort out issues affecting UK S1 Tivo users in recent months.:up::up::up:


In the spirit of recent postings, I'm pleased that you're pleased.


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## cwaring

So you should be. He's not easy to please isn't Pete


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## Davyburns

Pete, When I first bought a Tivo, and didn't really know what I bought, I searched the net, and came up with this forum. You answered my queries, in a very off handed way, and I really thought that this was the way the " Hoi Polloi" treated newbies. I perservered, but I really wonder how many new users were intimidated by your brash manner. I honestly believe that you are detrimental to this forum, but in a country were we have free speach, carry on.


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## einstein

cwaring said:


> Oh for your own sake (pete's sake, geddit!) let it go man. It really isn't worth worrying that much about
> 
> Yes. They changed a number on a web-site. I feel _so_ much better now


Interesting thread, because I've been trying to find a number for my father to cancel a dead TiVo.

They obviously don't use a Global Find and Replace or Grep the website, because the old number is still present on the STB Matrix page!

At least when you call it, you get a nice message tell you want the new number is!


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## incognito56

Couldn't care less about the number if they would just answer it. Just spent 15min on a premium line waiting for an answer.


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## incognito56

Couldn't care less about the number if they would just answer it. Just spent 15min on a premium line waiting for an answer. Gave up.


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## aidanblake

Always probs bro with sky .....


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## blindlemon

And speaking of number changes....

Much to Pete's delight (I'm sure) the support number for TiVoHeaven has now changed to *08452 696 204*

And just so that Pete can't claim all the credit, this is mainly due to the changes to 087x numbers forced by OFCOM from August 1st  - although he did helpfully give me the name of a company who could supply an 0845 number at reasonable cost. Thanks Pete!

Cheers
Steve


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## Pete77

blindlemon said:


> And just so that Pete can't claim all the credit, this is mainly due to the changes to 087x numbers forced by OFCOM from August 1st  - although he did helpfully give me the name of a company who could supply an 0845 number at reasonable cost. Thanks Pete!


Congratulations to blindlemon on changing to a number which is now free for most BT and TalkTalk customers to call at the weekend for up to an hour and actually cheaper to call than an 01/02 number for those on the BT Weekend Calls Plan if calling in the weekday daytime

I trust you will all take advantage of this new lower cost method of contacting the myopic citrus as we all know how much he enjoys hearing from his actual or potential customers.


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