# Game Of Thrones 6-7-2015 The Dance of Dragons



## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

Well I saw it coming and still could not believe it. But on the bright side all of the Stanis lovers on Reddit are now abandoning him in droves. I never understood why so many of them thought we was so great.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Davos was/is right. Nothing good comes from this witch! This will haunt Stannis for the rest of his life. I knew she was doomed once he made sure Davos wasn't around.

I thought when Dany closed her eyes, she was summoning Drogon, but it looked more like he sensed his mother was in danger.

Gotta love Tyrion giving it to that annoying "King". Glad he's gone. Maybe she'll marry Tyrion!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Stannis has burned any shred of sympathy he might have garnered. (pun intended).

Dany, however, really looked great on dragonback for the first time! Hooray!


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Whoa. I'm supposed to go to sleep after THAT?

And right on the heels of them telling us how excruciating death by fire is. Damn. Will his soldiers be disgusted and turn away from someone who would sacrifice his own daughter or will it prove his devotion?

I guess Jonah is back in Dany's good graces now.

Fun watching Jamie maintain his poker face with the talk about his daughter.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, I never liked Stannis, but I never fully despised him until tonight.

We all saw it coming, but until Ramsay's raid worked I hoped in the end he would do the right thing. Then again, this is a George R. R. Martin story, where the worst things often happen to the people who deserve it least...


Robin said:


> And right on the heels of them telling us how excruciating death by fire is. Damn. Will his soldiers be disgusted and turn away from someone who would sacrifice his own daughter or will it prove his devotion?


I suspect it won't be what they think of Stannis's actions that make up their minds, but rather what results he gets.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

And can Trant sink any lower?! I have no doubt that Jaqen knew she was lying about the gambler not being hungry. But man I hope Arya checks this dirtbag off her list.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Damn Game of Thrones .... Dad of the year award is soooo not going to Stannis


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I'm surprised some of the soldiers didn't help Shireen.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Is Trant the pedophile? (Or hebephile, I guess.) I expect Arya will be the fresh girl for tomorrow and it won't end well for him.

What's his story? (From the show, not asking for spoilers.)

And yes, her mentor definitely knew she was lying.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Trant's the one who killed Arya's "dance instructor."


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

It is funny that Jon Snow decided to land north of the wall instead of south, so that he had to rely on Thorne opening the gate.

Maybe he figured it would test Thorne's loyalty, and even if Thorne refused to open, it is such a poorly designed gate that Jon could still dismantle it and get in. 

In the scene where Stannis' tents got set on fire, I watched it twice but I could not find a single sign of people near where the flames were springing up. They just sprung up from nothing, like magic. I've seen no indication that Ramsay has access to magic, and there were no flaming arrows. So how did the fires start?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

The distance is shorter to land where he did, is my impression.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Trant's the one who killed Arya's "dance instructor."


Ahh, thank you.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

BeanMeScot said:


> The distance is shorter to land where he did, is my impression.


It is the same overland distance. Slightly shorter water distance to land north of the wall, obviously. But a negligible difference, unless there is some obstacle to sea navigation near the wall that is not shown on the maps.

Given how long the overland distance is, it would have been smarter to land south of the wall if at all possible. Much less danger from the White Walkers that way. Also, that way he avoids parading the Wildings past the disaffected Nights Watch members.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> It is the same overland distance. Slightly shorter water distance to land north of the wall, obviously. But a negligible difference, unless there is some obstacle to sea navigation near the wall that is not shown on the maps.
> 
> Given how long the overland distance is, it would have been smarter to land south of the wall if at all possible. Much less danger from the White Walkers that way. Also, that way he avoids parading the Wildings past the disaffected Nights Watch members.


Plus Stannis is going to need those ships. Seems better to get them to a better position further south, rather than north where the weather is worse and the white walkers are a concern (probably not a concern for the ships as long as the ice doesn't freeze, but who knows...why risk anything unnecessarily with them.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

john4200 said:


> It is the same overland distance. Slightly shorter water distance to land north of the wall, obviously. But a negligible difference, unless there is some obstacle to sea navigation near the wall that is not shown on the maps.
> 
> Given how long the overland distance is, it would have been smarter to land south of the wall if at all possible. Much less danger from the White Walkers that way. Also, that way he avoids parading the Wildings past the disaffected Nights Watch members.


Now in the original plan, with way more Wildings to move, it might have made sense to shuttle them a shorter distance so the boats could more quickly return for the next load. Trade-off the water distance moved for any one group against the total rate of advance for all of them.


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## Jim_TV (Mar 4, 2006)

The last two episodes have been crazy! Stannis sacrificing his daughter by burning her at the stake was brutal. Ser Davos is going to be furious if and when he returns from The Wall. And the scene in the arena was nuts. Drogon to the rescue!


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Once he hears what happened Davos is teh gon.

Was Drogon injured? His furnace got put out?


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> Once he hears what happened Davos is teh gon.
> 
> Was Drogon injured? His furnace got put out?





Spoiler



I don't think so, in the books the duration a dragon can spew fire increases as they get older. Dragons never stop growing and can live for centuries. I suspect he just needs a little rest before spewing more fire.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

In the "Previously On" segment, they showed Mellisandre using the leeches on Gendry. I was soooo hoping that's how Stannis would decide to access Shireen's kings blood. I still don't understand why that wasn't an option. Effing Stannis. :down:

Bet that Meereenese champion feels like a chump for saving Jorah only to then get killed by Jorah. 

If boats can simply sail from North of the Wall to South of the Wall without encountering any difficulty or resistance, then what's the point of the Wall at all? Are White Walkers magically confined to land? I've assumed that Jon took the Wildlings overland because there's something preventing them from sailing boats full of Wildings from North to South and bypassing the Wall.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

I couldn't watch. Shireen was the only character that was 100% positive and good in a world with lots of grey. Wow. Even the mother that hated her changed her mind in the end. Unbelievably cruel.

Jorah was touching Dany left and right. Is it possible she is immune? (rhetorical question - don't tell me anything from the books). Knew that it was the only way out of that scene - Drogon to the rescue!

tta


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Things are really heating up - this episode raised the stakes. Well done, Game of Thrones.


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## dagojr (Jan 9, 2004)

I've never been as turned on by a simple word before. "Fly" Oh my.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

Wow. Wow.

What an episode. GoT has done some brutal, sadistic stuff over the years, but I almost had to turn off the TV during the Shireen scene. That was almost unbearable.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

The thread title is incorrect. The episode is "The Dance *of* Dragons".


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Had to watch it again tonight - last two episodes have been so good.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> If boats can simply sail from North of the Wall to South of the Wall without encountering any difficulty or resistance, then what's the point of the Wall at all? Are White Walkers magically confined to land?


Magic certainly must be involved. Either the magic of the wall extends to sea somehow to block White Walkers, or else as you say, White Walkers might not be able to travel over water (maybe it freezes immediately and stops the boat? but in that case they could walk on the ice...hmmm)


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Sounds like the show is both leaving the books behind and going in a different direction.


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## dagojr (Jan 9, 2004)

David Platt said:


> Wow. Wow.
> 
> What an episode. GoT has done some brutal, sadistic stuff over the years, but I almost had to turn off the TV during the Shireen scene. That was almost unbearable.


I couldn't take it to be honest, I fast forwarded. on the other hand I did rewind the last five minutes several times. both included people being burned alive, but I was cheering the last five minutes.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

The Dorne story has been such a waste of time. Nine episodes in and not one interesting thing has come of it.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

dtivouser said:


> The Dorne story has been such a waste of time. Nine episodes in and not one interesting thing has come of it.


Well, I saw two interesting things there.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Trant's the one who killed Arya's "dance instructor."


Iirc he also beheaded Ned stark


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> The thread title is incorrect. The episode is "The Dance *of* Dragons".


And it's Dragons not Dragoons.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

danielhart said:


> Iirc he also beheaded Ned stark


No, the one who chopped off Ned's head was Ilyn Payne.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

danielhart said:


> Iirc he also beheaded Ned stark


No, that was Ilyn Payne.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> No, that was Ilyn Payne.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> In the "Previously On" segment, they showed Mellisandre using the leeches on Gendry. I was soooo hoping that's how Stannis would decide to access Shireen's kings blood. I still don't understand why that wasn't an option. Effing Stannis. :down:


And that's even if she had king's blood. Whether or not Stannis is a king is debatable.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Bet that Meereenese champion feels like a chump for saving Jorah only to then get killed by Jorah.


Heh. Seemed like a good idea at the time, though...he was going to have to take on the winner, so why not make sure the winner was the weaker fighter?


Shakhari said:


> And that's even if she had king's blood. Whether or not Stannis is a king is debatable.


I guess we'll see how well the magic works next week...


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Did they try to pull something sneaky by making us think for most of the show that there wouldn't be some hot Dragon action, and the title of the episode was referring to the book Shireen was reading?



-smak-


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## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

The very end shots were a little too Neverending Story for me. Drogon making his entrance and lighting people up was terrific though. I am also happy we seem to be leaving Dorne behind for good.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Eff you, Stannis. Not only are you boring but you're now the #1 seed in the "Most Despicable Person in Game Of Thrones" tournament.

I knew the dragon would appear when Danerys and friends were in danger. He needs a saddle, though. Those spikes looked sharp.

Bronn scenes are always good.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

dtivouser said:


> The Dorne story has been such a waste of time. Nine episodes in and not one interesting thing has come of it.


Have you met GoT?  
It's all about the long game, I also disagree, while there hasn't been a ton of action pieces in Dorne there's a lot that's gone on there.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

danterner said:


> Things are really heating up - this episode raised the stakes. Well done, Game of Thrones.


/Sons of the Harpy

Not funny. Not funny at all.

/end Sons of the Harpy

I thought it was really good that the one that broke down was the mother, not Stannis.

The leeches didn't work, as far as I'm concerned (and Mellisandre said she needed more than leeches, I guess they work "slow"). Now let's see what this burning does.


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## chronatog7 (Aug 26, 2004)

I guess soup is in order?


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## Mike10 (Mar 1, 2006)

I was kind of annoyed with how the spears seemed to be hurting or at least distracting the dragon
Maybe they get tougher with age


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I liked the little bit of parallel with the Dance of Dragon's book, where it talks about the siblings warring over who should be king, sort of like Stannis and Renly back in season 2. Only rather than thousands dying, Stannis took the shortcut, killing Renly by magic, and nobody else died in their squabble.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

A ton of stories left and each deserve a full episode. How will they wrap it up?

1. Arya, Trant, and the Thin Man. Will she kill them? will her training continue?

2. Cersei, Margery, and Loras' trials.

3. Stannis, magic, and Winterfell. And let's not forget Davos or Sansa.

4. Jon Snow and Ollie + the Wildling.

5. All the Dorne stuff must lead to SOMETHING, right? and we need a sex scene with that Sand Snake and Bronn 

6. Repercussions in Mereen.

Did I miss anything? How will they do all this in one hour?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

tivotvaddict said:


> I couldn't watch. Shireen was the only character that was 100% positive and good in a world with lots of grey.


Technically, Shireen had some grey, too. 



> Jorah was touching Dany left and right. Is it possible she is immune?


Possibly, but I was thinking it was they affected area itself that is contagious, not your entire body.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Possibly, but I was thinking it was they affected area itself that is contagious, not your entire body.


But Shireen got infected from a doll. So the virus spreads through contact with clothes, not just the skin of the affected area. Jorah has touched the cloth covering the greyscale numerous times.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

The "lamb to the slaughter" way they filmed the Shireen walk out of her tent was horrifying. I could not fall asleep until 1:30 AM.

I could not even continue watching at the time and had to take a break for half an hour.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> The "lamb to the slaughter" way they filmed the Shireen walk out of her tent was horrifying. I could not fall asleep until 1:30 AM.
> 
> I could not even continue watching at the time and had to take a break for half an hour.


Usually watching something a second time is much less shocking. When the episode was finished, I went back and re-watched that one scene. My god, her screams were far worse than I remembered the first time.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

I can't believe anyone is _that_ surprised Stannis killed his daughter. He's willing to kill his brother, his brother-in-law, tried to kill his bastard nephew, has made numerous allusions to stomaching terrible acts because they are necessary...this was completely in character for him. I mean, yeah, it's pretty awful to kill your own daughter. But Stannis has had a pretty clear objective since the second season to retake the iron throne out of a sense of duty to the kingdom. I don't necessarily want to win in the end, but this isn't something that makes me go crazy. What did anyone expect? Him to become human?

Apart from that, I thought the end of this episode was as great as last week's.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

MikeAndrews said:


> Was Drogon injured? His furnace got put out?


Why do you say that?

He roared at Dany but he wasn't intending to use fire then. Was there something else I missed?



DevdogAZ said:


> In the "Previously On" segment, they showed Mellisandre using the leeches on Gendry. I was soooo hoping that's how Stannis would decide to access Shireen's kings blood. I still don't understand why that wasn't an option. Effing Stannis. :down:


When Melisandre first brought up using Shireen and said it would be a more significant sacrifice Stanis pushed for leeches and she said they wouldn't work this time but I don't know of she elaborated on why.



tivotvaddict said:


> Jorah was touching Dany left and right. Is it possible she is immune?


I think you have to touch infected flesh. The stone men were infected everywhere but Jorah only has a patch.



cheesesteak said:


> Eff you, Stannis. Not only are you boring but you're now the #1 seed in the "Most Despicable Person in Game Of Thrones" tournament.


And that was one hell of a contest.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

RegBarc said:


> I can't believe anyone is _that_ surprised Stannis killed his daughter.


I don't recall anyone here being surprised...We've all pretty much seen it coming since Mellisandre insisted that Shireen comes along...


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

RegBarc said:


> I can't believe anyone is that surprised Stannis killed his daughter.


You're mistaking horror for surprise.

Just like with Sansa & Ramsey. (Not you personally, at least not that I recall.)


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I don't recall anyone here being surprised...We've all pretty much seen it coming since Mellisandre insisted that Shireen comes along...


I was saying more in general people being surprised (someone brought up Reddit earlier in this thread).

Even then, it does seem that some here are surprised he went through with it. I'm not in the slightest.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Robin said:


> You're mistaking horror for surprise.
> 
> Just like with Sansa & Ramsey. (Not you personally, at least not that I recall.)


No, the "f*** Stannis" remarks are both horror and surprise. And I think this is the first GoT thread I participated in. For the record, though, none of that surprised me either, or horrified me in relation to the rest of the series. Ramsey Bolton pretty much called it a few seasons ago by saying you're in for a rude surprise if you think any of this has a happy ending. None of these acts particularly horrify me (at least, none since I saw Nedd get beheaded). So now it's just more interesting how each character develops or chooses their next move.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

GoT did an excellent job again of making us fall in love with a character then killing her. 
I cringed at that scene even more than Sansa's rape scene. 

Stannis better meet a fiery death.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Gunnyman said:


> Stannis better meet a fiery death.


This is purely speculation, but they have been setting up a battle between the Boltons and Stannis the whole season. That might be win-win.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

RegBarc said:


> I can't believe anyone is _that_ surprised Stannis killed his daughter. He's willing to kill his brother, his brother-in-law, tried to kill his bastard nephew, has made numerous allusions to stomaching terrible acts because they are necessary...


But those were all people who "deserved it." He clearly crossed a whole new line this time by murdering a complete innocent (who also happened to be his own daughter whom he loved).


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But those were all people who "deserved it." He clearly crossed a whole new line this time by murdering a complete innocent (who also happened to be his own daughter whom he loved).


Sure. But he's made it abundantly clear that the throne is something he is responsible for and will do anything to fulfill his obligation. I mean, it's tough to listen to her screams and whatnot, but I did not believe for a second that he was going to command his men to save her, or tell his witch to stop it.

It's pretty awful, but it's also not a surprise.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

The mother could've potentially saved her by announcing "she's not your daughter"


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

One thing that has bothered me for some time with Meereen. The Unsullied are supposed to be the most elite warriors in the world. Yet, time after time they're shown being beaten by civilians wearing masks.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Bob Coxner said:


> One thing that has bothered me for some time with Meereen. The Unsullied are supposed to be the most elite warriors in the world. Yet, time after time they're shown being beaten by civilians wearing masks.


Yes, they totally suck. Also, are there 12 of them left?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Bob Coxner said:


> One thing that has bothered me for some time with Meereen. The Unsullied are supposed to be the most elite warriors in the world. Yet, time after time they're shown being beaten by civilians wearing masks.


This bugged me also in this episode. I never read the books and didn't know the Unsullied were supposed to be the elite of the elite of the elite until a couple of episode threads ago. Now I roll my eyes when they get killed by some mask wearing schmoes.

Whenever they meet, I hope Roose Bolton, Stannis Baratheon and Ramsay Bolton all kill each other in a horrific manner, preferably with flaying, mutilations and fire.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Not to mention that they should out number any force against her. The Pit should have been surrounded by them.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

I can't say I'm surprised. We've seen a darker, creepy side of Melisandre and the Lord of Light for a long time, and I suspected that something more was going to happen than just the suggestion of sacrificing Shireen.

That said, I'm also wondering if we're going to end up seeing a conflict between the Red priest in Volantis (the one preaching about Dany) and Melisandre's followers.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Yay, dragons! But, yikes, not quite as invincible as I might have expected.

So, did Dany's "husband" conspire with the masked schmoes? Something was up with his late arrival at the games where he announced, "just making sure everything was in order." Though he did not survive the attack.



Anubys said:


> A ton of stories left and each deserve a full episode. How will they wrap it up?


And, yes far too many story lines to resolve - or not!


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Bob Coxner said:


> One thing that has bothered me for some time with Meereen. The Unsullied are supposed to be the most elite warriors in the world. Yet, time after time they're shown being beaten by civilians wearing masks.


They're supposed good at battlefield battle, not necessarily hand to hand combat or urban warfare. Their value comes from the fact that they are not afraid to die, they they can march their mass numbers onto the battlefield like the Roman Legions. As we've noticed, they're completely useless in the streets.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

It was good to see that Prince Dorn (Doran?) does indeed have a pair.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

markp99 said:


> Yay, dragons! But, yikes, not quite as invincible as I might have expected.


Everything I've heard about how the dragons are vulnerable is from the books, so I hesitate to post those details here. Suffice it to say, these dragons are still young and not fully grown.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

markp99 said:


> Yay, dragons! But, yikes, not quite as invincible as I might have expected.
> 
> So, did Dany's "husband" conspire with the masked schmoes?


Earlier, Dario has suggested that Hizdahr was leading the Harpies.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Okay, so why doesn't Dany, or some of her advisors, take the Harpy's masks off to identify them, and their clans?

To me, the next logical step would be to identify them, and take the proper retribution against them and those closest to them. Not just one, either. But rather, many, many, many.

Or maybe she could just turn her dragons loose, but that would be a bit indiscriminate.

Time to get serious....


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Also, why is Reek hiding and blending in with Stannis's army? What an episode!!!


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## debtoine (May 17, 2001)

nickels said:


> Also, why is Reek hiding and blending in with Stannis's army? What an episode!!!


What? I missed that... where did you see that?

T


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## rhuntington3 (May 1, 2001)

debtoine said:


> What? I missed that... where did you see that?
> 
> T


Just in case...



Spoiler



So is that who they did a closeup on after Stannis walked around as Davos told him about the aftermath of the fire? I didn't recognize him at first.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Trant's the one who killed Arya's "dance instructor."


I think we may see the "Needle" again some time soon


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

kaszeta said:


> Earlier, Dario has suggested that Hizdahr was leading the Harpies.


I still think he was part of them but they turned on him. The Harpys were killing some of the rich folk. There is more here left to be discovered.



nickels said:


> Also, why is Reek hiding and blending in with Stannis's army? What an episode!!!


WTF? is this a joke or are you serious?

I need to watch again if true. I totally did not see that.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

RegBarc said:


> I can't believe anyone is _that_ surprised Stannis killed his daughter. He's willing to kill his brother, his brother-in-law, tried to kill his bastard nephew, has made numerous allusions to stomaching terrible acts because they are necessary...this was completely in character for him. I mean, yeah, it's pretty awful to kill your own daughter. But Stannis has had a pretty clear objective since the second season to retake the iron throne out of a sense of duty to the kingdom. I don't necessarily want to win in the end, but this isn't something that makes me go crazy. What did anyone expect? Him to become human?


Actually, they spent a lot of time here establishing the really close bond between him and Shireen. She was the one thing that made him REALLY human. His mother loathed her, but he loved her. He practically moved heaven and earth to accomplish the unheard of task of curing her grayscale. His mother wanted to send her off and he'd have none of it. She was like the 1 unbreakable bond in his life. I actually thought she was where he'd draw the line. Now, whether Melisandre would go behind his back to do what he would not, or whether Ramsay's attack*** would result affect the outcome, that was a different story. But I actually thought Stannis would be firm there.

As for the people he's killed:

his brother - with this one there was no other way. He could just ignore renley, but sooner or later the two of them would have clashed. And beside, as Davos told him...Renly wronged him and it needed to be dealt with

his brother-in-law - was this the one he burned at the stake at dragonstone? Well, an in-law isn't really that close.

tried to kill his bastard nephew - and as Davos told Stannis, Gendry was innocent, and Stannis came there to talk to Davos because he knew killing Gendry wasn't right and was looking for Davos to advise him not to kill him. Whatever the explanation, Davos convinced him to spare Gendry and find another way. I figured Shireen would get at least as much consideration at that.

Now I'm actually wondering...back in season 3, how much did Stannis actually see in those flames. He said he saw a great battle in the snow, but now I wonder if he actually saw Shireen being burned, and I wonder if his wife knew too. Was that the reason she wanted to leave Shireen behind and he wanted her with him? Was he planning this all along, and just hoping it wouldn't come to that? It now puts his motivations for all of that into question.

***speaking of Ramsay's attack, that turned out WAY less dramatic than I thought. Knowing him, I thought something REALLY barbaric was about to happen. But a few tents set on fire (and a horse?)...a little demoralizing, but otherwise...meh


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I don't recall anyone here being surprised...We've all pretty much seen it coming since Mellisandre insisted that Shireen comes along...


As I just explained in my previous post, count me as the first then. I suspected she'd die (or maybe the grayscale would save her somehow), but I didn't suspect Stannis would condone it. I thought that was where he would draw the line. Apparently I was very wrong...the concept of "the line" doesn't exist for him.


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## Jim_TV (Mar 4, 2006)

Bob Coxner said:


> One thing that has bothered me for some time with Meereen. The Unsullied are supposed to be the most elite warriors in the world. Yet, time after time they're shown being beaten by civilians wearing masks.


The Unsullied were caught by surprise and outnumbered in the arena scene. Elite troops with rigid discipline do best in tight formation on an actual open field of battle where most ancient battles were fought. When they're fighting in one by one combats in the chaos of a city street or other close quarters combat with irregular troops much of their advantage is taken away.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Azlen said:


> And it's Dragons not Dragoons.


The current title makes me think of this:


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Anubys said:


> WTF? is this a joke or are you serious?
> 
> I need to watch again if true. I totally did not see that.


I know what he's talking about. There's a scene in the aftermath of the fires where they zoom in on a soldier's face and it looks a bit like Reek, but when I replayed, I'm not sure it was him.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shakhari said:


> And that's even if she had king's blood. Whether or not Stannis is a king is debatable.


Well, back in season 2, the magic worked for the shadow demon to kill Renley, and I think Stannis is every bit as much the rightful king now as he was the rightful king then, so if it worked for Renley I'm sure it has to work now.

But now I'm wondering...if having a baby with the king can make that shadow demon, and a few leaches on the former king's bastard son can kill (assuming you believe it's responsible) 2 of the 3 usurpers (I'm assuming Balon Greyjoy is still alive), then I have to wonder how powerful of magic you can create by sacrificing the life of the kings own child.

Though the kicker of it all would be if the magic doesn't actually work***, and he still manages to take Winterfell anyway. He makes the ultimate sacrifice for nothing.

***could that be the significance of the greyscale? We spent so much time talking about it, I thought it was going to go somewhere. Now it looks like it was just to show us how committed Stannis was to her, but that he's even more committed to his destiny. But maybe it still has a part to play.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> ***speaking of Ramsay's attack, that turned out WAY less dramatic than I thought. Knowing him, I thought something REALLY barbaric was about to happen. But a few tents set on fire (and a horse?)...a little demoralizing, but otherwise...meh


Ramsey only had 20 men. We knew he was going to have to do something sneaky. What he did caused a lot more damage than sneaking into a few tents and killing soldiers in their sleep. He did serious damage to Stannis' army. And it wasn't just one horse. Davos was giving a report of the damage, Stannis asked about the horses, and Davos replied, "We're still getting a count, but hundreds are dead."



morac said:


> I know what he's talking about. There's a scene in the aftermath of the fires where they zoom in on a soldier's face and it looks a bit like Reek, but when I replayed, I'm not sure it was him.


I just rewatched that scene. It's definitely not Reek.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Although the past two episodes have had some really good scenes, each one has reminded me how many strands are going on in the show and how much time seems to be "wasted" on just moving the pieces around. Perhaps that is why in almost every episode, they show us a board with various pieces on it. If this were a chess tournament, there'd be one or two games with a lot of incredible, compelling stuff going in and then the rest of the room would be people seemingly headed for a 50 move rule.

I'm sure the Dorne stuff will eventually pay off, but right now it felt like a complete waste of screen time between two really epic situations (White walker battle, Mereen arena). And, really, the Arya stuff has been pretty irritatingly slow as molasses as well.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

The middle of an epic like this is alway pretty boring. The writer has to get people to certain places and learn certain things before the end game.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> The middle of an epic like this is alway pretty boring. The writer has to get people to certain places and learn certain things before the end game.


I don't agree. The Two Towers was my favorite of the Tolkien novels (and, IMO, the best of the movies). I know that this is the excuse people use in a lot of fantasy works that are drawn out and suffer middling novels, but I don't think it is "required." I think the source material may be to blame here, but you also have to recognize what's worth filming and how best to develop plot arcs knowing that the source material is languishing a bit. They haven't done a good job of that. Mereen's arena and the white walker battle make me yearn for the early seasons when the writing was much tighter and you didn't feel like you were just waiting until George R R Martin stops stalling.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Sorry - I thought that was reek. Why the zoom in on some nobody for that scene? I need to rewatch it. My bad!


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> I don't agree. The Two Towers was my favorite of the Tolkien novels (and, IMO, the best of the movies). I know that this is the excuse people use in a lot of fantasy works that are drawn out and suffer middling novels, but I don't think it is "required." I think the source material may be to blame here, but you also have to recognize what's worth filming and how best to develop plot arcs knowing that the source material is languishing a bit. They haven't done a good job of that. Mereen's arena and the white walker battle make me yearn for the early seasons when the writing was much tighter and you didn't feel like you were just waiting until George R R Martin stops stalling.


That was 3 novels. The middle is much smaller there. Think Harry Potter (camping with Harry Potter) or Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> The mother could've potentially saved her by announcing "she's not your daughter"


I was hoping she'd turn out to be a Targaryen, and just walk out of the fire.


----------



## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

nickels said:


> Sorry - I thought that was reek. Why the zoom in on some nobody for that scene? I need to rewatch it. My bad!


I took it just to show the resigned nature of the people that were there.......


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> That was 3 novels. The middle is much smaller there. Think Harry Potter (camping with Harry Potter) or Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time.


You can't use the most famous example of languishing writing (Wheel of Time) to claim it's a rule or acceptable practice. It's still bad writing to basically give up on tight plotting because you "need certain people to be certain places." I would never have finished the Dune series if it did this, or many other series.

I think it's pretty clear that the writing and vision is suffering substantially, and since the novels aren't complete yet, we don't yet know if that's because he had a plan and had to get from point A to point B (as you claim) or if it's because he simply faded in quality. It's bled pretty noticeably into the TV series -- especially this season.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Actually, they spent a lot of time here establishing the really close bond between him and Shireen. She was the one thing that made him REALLY human. His mother loathed her, but he loved her. He practically moved heaven and earth to accomplish the unheard of task of curing her grayscale. His mother wanted to send her off and he'd have none of it. She was like the 1 unbreakable bond in his life. I actually thought she was where he'd draw the line.


Stannis has made it clear that, although she is his daughter, he has no qualms about killing a child if it means that he fulfills his obligation to protect the realm (he even mentioned this in the third book). And although it is his daughter, and he's tried to make his child feel better about her position, the viewer shouldn't doubt that he will do what he has to in order to win.

As far as what makes him human, I don't know if it means much considering his overriding sense of duty that he's been going on about since season two.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Harry Potter languished, too.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> Harry Potter languished, too.


Somewhat. Not this much. Also, many series did not. And the movies didn't suffer from it anywhere near as much as the novels did. Regardless, it's just an incredibly lame excuse that gives bad writing a pass. If you have plans for characters and can't execute those plans, it's inferior writing. It's not "ok because other series did it." Imagine if The Wire or Breaking Bad did this...


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

RegBarc said:


> Stannis has made it clear that, although she is his daughter, he has no qualms about killing a child if it means that he fulfills his obligation to protect the realm (he even mentioned this in the third book). And although it is his daughter, and he's tried to make his child feel better about her position, the viewer shouldn't doubt that he will do what he has to in order to win.
> 
> As far as what makes him human, I don't know if it means much considering his overriding sense of duty that he's been going on about since season two.


As I see it, if he can do that to his daughter, he wasn't really human to begin with. Duty is one thing, but this is way over the top!


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Somewhat. Not this much. Also, many series did not. And the movies didn't suffer from it anywhere near as much as the novels did. Regardless, it's just an incredibly lame excuse that gives bad writing a pass. If you have plans for characters and can't execute those plans, it's inferior writing. It's not "ok because other series did it." Imagine if The Wire or Breaking Bad did this...


Yes, the movie did it better. Here the TV show is doing it better. I have to presume that the first 7 episodes of the season were boring, at least in part, because GRRM told them that certain things needed to happen to get to the end point. They cut out a lot of stuff but it was still boring.

Harry Potter is also much smaller in scope. Wheel of Time is actually more comparable because the world building and character building is on a similar, immense scale. World building like that tends to be easier to get out of hand and we have seen examples of that.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

RegBarc said:


> Stannis has made it clear that, although she is his daughter, he has no qualms about killing a child if it means that he fulfills his obligation to protect the realm (he even mentioned this in the third book).


Well, this is the 5th season, not the 3rd book. I'm on the 0th book. I don't think there was anything that clear and explicit in the show. They certainly laid the entire groundwork for (apparently most) viewers to believe, but they also carefully planted that little bit of doubt that I apparently latched on to. Like I said, he was convinced to spare Gendry. I was sure he'd offer Shireen as much. Sure the leeches wouldn't work this time (for unknown reasons), but find SOMETHING.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> Yes, the movie did it better. Here the TV show is doing it better. I have to presume that the first 7 episodes of the season were boring, at least in part, because GRRM told them that certain things needed to happen to get to the end point. They cut out a lot of stuff but it was still boring.
> 
> Harry Potter is also much smaller in scope. Wheel of Time is actually more comparable because the world building and character building is on a similar, immense scale. World building like that tends to be easier to get out of hand and we have seen examples of that.


WoT was originally supposed to be < 7 novels, right? It should have stayed that many. I'm going to assume that this series could also have been trimmed sufficiently. Let us just hope that it redeems itself in a manner similar to HP and WoT. We don't yet know that and, to be honest, I'm not totally convinced it will happen based on some of the random, supremely stupid things I've seen George R R Martin quoted as saying.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Well, this is the 5th season, not the 3rd book. I'm on the 0th book. I don't think there was anything that clear and explicit in the show. They certainly laid the entire groundwork for (apparently most) viewers to believe, but they also carefully planted that little bit of doubt that I apparently latched on to. Like I said, he was convinced to spare Gendry. I was sure he'd offer Shireen as much. Sure the leeches wouldn't work this time (for unknown reasons), but find SOMETHING.


From what I remember, Gendry was going to be sacrificed in one shot, not preserved as a source of small offerings to lord of light. Davos freed him before that could happen. So it's not like Stannis was giving him a pass on that. He wasn't convinced to spare him, and he almost executed Davos over it.

And I only bring up the book version because that's what Stannis says in relation to sacrificing the (younger book version) of Gendry.


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## Jim_TV (Mar 4, 2006)

nickels said:


> Sorry - I thought that was reek. Why the zoom in on some nobody for that scene? I need to rewatch it. My bad!


I think they were just showing a freezing, starving, shivering soldier to show the desperate state of Stannis' army.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

RegBarc said:


> From what I remember, Gendry was going to be sacrificed in one shot, not preserved as a source of small offerings to lord of light. Davos freed him before that could happen.


You're right...Davos freeing him had slipped my mind (which was really odd, considering in my other comment I was talking about a conversation between Stannis and Davos while Davos was in jail...somehow I didn't even try to think WHY he was there).


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## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

Oysters, clams, and cockles!


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

LordKronos said:


> You're right...Davos freeing him had slipped my mind (which was really odd, considering in my other comment I was talking about a conversation between Stannis and Davos while Davos was in jail...somehow I didn't even try to think WHY he was there).


Davos was in jail because he tried to kill Melisandre. Nothing came of Davos freeing Gendry afterwards. Stannis was about to have Davos killed, but Melisandre told Stannis not to because he was needed "in the events to come".


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Edit: Disregard, wrong character. Forgot about Davos losing it.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

RegBarc said:


> This is purely speculation, but they have been setting up a battle between the Boltons and Stannis the whole season. That might be win-win.


Only if everyone dies.



LordKronos said:


> Now I'm actually wondering...back in season 3, how much did Stannis actually see in those flames. He said he saw a great battle in the snow, but now I wonder if he actually saw Shireen being burned, and I wonder if his wife knew too. Was that the reason she wanted to leave Shireen behind and he wanted her with him? Was he planning this all along, and just hoping it wouldn't come to that? It now puts his motivations for all of that into question.


Yep. He knew it would probably come to this so he kept his daughter with him to keep his options open. Then when it was time he sent his hand away so he couldn't interfere.

His wife knew what he was doing and was on board until the reality of it set in.


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

markp99 said:


> So, did Dany's "husband" conspire with the masked schmoes? Something was up with his late arrival at the games where he announced, "just making sure everything was in order." Though he did not survive the attack.


I believe this was intended to be a fake out by the writers. The tardiness hints that he might be responsible, and then he's killed by the Harpies, so he must not be responsible.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

markb said:


> I believe this was intended to be a fake out by the writers. The tardiness hints that he might be responsible, and then he's killed by the Harpies, so he must not be responsible.


It didn't appear anyone was working really hard to protect him.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

RegBarc said:


> Edit: Disregard, wrong character. Forgot about Davos losing it.


Damn you. You actually tricked me into messing up the timeline even further in my head:

Davos frees Gendry -> Stannis throws Davos in jail -> Stannis frees Davos -> Stannis uses Gendry for magic -> Davos jumps in time machine and frees Gendry in the past.

(edit: or maybe my time machine jump is in the wrong place of that loop...we can't free gendry and THEN use him for magic)


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Robin said:


> Only if everyone dies.


If only one of them dies, it's going to make a lot of people happy I gather.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

RegBarc said:


> If only one of them dies, it's going to make a lot of people happy I gather.


Then it's just a single win.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> Once he hears what happened Davos is teh gon.


I _hope_ he finally gives up on his One True King.



john4200 said:


> Magic certainly must be involved. Either the magic of the wall extends to sea somehow to block White Walkers, or else as you say, White Walkers might not be able to travel over water (maybe it freezes immediately and stops the boat? but in that case they could walk on the ice...hmmm)


I think very rough seas (on the short routes) were mentioned earlier as a reason regarding wildlings.

And maybe they wights aren't good at skilled things like sailing.



Odds Bodkins said:


> The very end shots were a little too Neverending Story for me. Drogon making his entrance and lighting people up was terrific though.


It looked like a back full of 8 inch spikes before Dany climbed on. And she kind of abandoned her friends. Some Harpies were toasted, but after the dragon was gone, the rest could've regrouped and overrun the good guys.



Bob Coxner said:


> One thing that has bothered me for some time with Meereen. The Unsullied are supposed to be the most elite warriors in the world. Yet, time after time they're shown being beaten by civilians wearing masks.


Yeah, there were so many shots of the Two and a Half Men fending off Harpies, it was like the Unsullied weren't there.



pendragn said:


> They're supposed good at battlefield battle, not necessarily hand to hand combat or urban warfare. Their value comes from the fact that they are not afraid to die, ...


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Yes! I'd meant to comment on that. HTF did Stannis think the Watch had enough supplies for his troops even without knowing about the Wildlings?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> Yes! I'd meant to comment on that. HTF did Stannis think the Watch had enough supplies for his troops even without knowing about the Wildlings?


Well, he was just there. He didn't send Davos to find out if they have enough supplies, he sent him there to get the supplies


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

True, and like I just said, half the reason was to get Davos out of the camp!


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Odds Bodkins said:


> I am also happy we seem to be leaving Dorne behind for good.


I doubt if that's happening. If this was all we were going to do with Dorne, I doubt if we would ever have gone there.

If Stannis's big sacrifice doesn't work, The Red Lady will be the next one in the fire. :up:


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Well, we'll see Prince Whatshisface on the Small Council, which should be interesting.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Good ep


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

GoHokies! said:


> Well, we'll see Prince Whatshisface on the Small Council, which should be interesting.


Tristan


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> Tristan


Note: It's apparently spelled Trystane


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Robin said:


> True, and like I just said, half the reason was to get Davos out of the camp!


I felt that was the only reason.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> In the "Previously On" segment, they showed Mellisandre using the leeches on Gendry. I was soooo hoping that's how Stannis would decide to access Shireen's kings blood. I still don't understand why that wasn't an option. Effing Stannis. :down:


Stannis should have watched the "Previously On" segment before he decided what to do.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Robin said:


> Why do you say that?
> 
> He roared at Dany but he wasn't intending to use fire then. Was there something else I missed?


Drogon looked ragged and beaten with the spears in him at the end and he wasn't having anymore Harpy BBQ.

The gods want King's blood but Stannis's blood has be contained in his daughter?

I hope that Davros determines that the Gods of light need one more sacrifice in fire - Melisandre.

If Arya goes after Trant, doesn't that mean she fails in being faceless and giving up being Arya Stark?


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

It seemed like Trant recognized Arya. Would he? I'm not all that attentive a viewer, so the killing of the dancing instructor is something I never would have remembered. I count on TCF to keep me on track! But Arya Stark should be pretty recognizable anyway, one would think.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

markp99 said:


> Yay, dragons! But, yikes, not quite as invincible as I might have expected.
> 
> So, did Dany's "husband" conspire with the masked schmoes? Something was up with his late arrival at the games where he announced, "just making sure everything was in order." Though he did not survive the attack.


'zactly. I would guess that he didn't expect that the Harpy would take him out, too, but it has to mean that he expected the Queen to be assassinated.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> It seemed like Trant recognized Arya. Would he? I'm not all that attentive a viewer, so the killing of the dancing instructor is something I never would have remembered. I count on TCF to keep me on track! But Arya Stark should be pretty recognizable anyway, one would think.


Not many girls have the Charlie Brown round face.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

MikeAndrews said:


> If Arya goes after Trant, doesn't that mean she fails in being faceless and giving up being Arya Stark?


Maybe this is what her teacher meant in that he said a girl isn't ready to become no one.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Once he hears what happened Davos is teh gon.





tlc said:


> I _hope_ he finally gives up on his One True King.


Actually, I don't think Davos will be particularly upset...at least not any more so than when he left. I'm pretty sure he knew what was going on. At the beginning, after he urges Stannis to return to Castle Black, Davos says "If we can't march forward and we wont go back...." and then just sort of pauses as he looks over at Melisandre.

Then in the next scene, when Stannis gives him his orders, he tries to take Shireen and her mom (I can never remember her name), and when Stannis says no, he asks again to at least take Shireen.

Then next we see Davos saying goodbye to her, giving her a gift, and thanking her for all she's done for him. That was a pretty elaborate goodbye for a "I'll see you in a few days". I'm pretty certain he knew what was happening.

Question: what was Shireen holding in the bag when walking to her death? (edit: nevermind...it was the horse Davos carved. for some reason it looked like a bag at first)


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

tlc said:


> It looked like a back full of 8 inch spikes before Dany climbed on. And she kind of abandoned her friends. Some Harpies were toasted, but after the dragon was gone, the rest could've regrouped and overrun the good guys.


She didn't abandon her friends, she saved her child. Drogon was being killed by a thousand nicks, she needed to get him out of there. And how else do you get a dragon out of an arena? _Valahd_!

I think the reality of having dragons may finally be sinking in. We can only hope she frees Viserion and Rhaegal, and gets her queenly act together.



mooseAndSquirrel said:


> It seemed like Trant recognized Arya. Would he? I'm not all that attentive a viewer, so the killing of the dancing instructor is something I never would have remembered. I count on TCF to keep me on track! But Arya Stark should be pretty recognizable anyway, one would think.


I don't think he outright recognized her, or he would have taken action. I think it was more along the lines of "I know I know that girl, who is she...?"


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

A stag, not a horse, LK.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

astrohip said:


> We can only hope she frees Viserion and Rhaegal, and gets her queenly act together


She would be foolish not to. Unleash them on the Harpy.

Still not sure whether Hizdahr zo Loraq was involved with the Harpy, sure seemed to be that way then he takes daggers and (I assume) dies. So not real sure there...


----------



## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

pjenkins said:


> She would be foolish not to. Unleash them on the Harpy.


It's hard to do that you don't know who is a Harpy.



> Still not sure whether Hizdahr zo Loraq was involved with the Harpy, sure seemed to be that way then he takes daggers and (I assume) dies. So not real sure there...


It seemed the opposite way to me. He was killed by a Harpy, therefore, not a Harpy!


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

astrohip said:


> I don't think he outright recognized her, or he would have taken action. I think it was more along the lines of "I know I know that girl, who is she...?"


I don't think he recognized her - I think the look was a lecherous "She's young enough."


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> A stag, not a horse, LK.


I know that (family sigil) . No idea why I typed horse. must've been still thinking about that flaming horse.


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Technically, Shireen had some grey, too.
> .


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

danterner said:


> I don't think he recognized her - I think the look was a lecherous "She's young enough."


I do think he knew he knew her from somewhere. He gave her a long look several times, not just in the whore house.

It could go either way, he might have just been lusting after her every time, but I think it was a glimmer of recognition.

My name is Anya Stark! You killed my dancing teacher! Prepare to die!


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Well, don't forget, it's been years since Arya left Kings Landing. She's grown quite a bit. And Meryn Trent doesn't strike me as that much of an observer that he'd immediately recognize a little girl he paid little attention to several years ago.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

markb said:


> It's hard to do that you don't know who is a Harpy.


Kill them all and let the gods sort them out.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Wasn't that Dario's suggestion just recently? I wonder if Dany will be more amenable to that idea now, after this disaster.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

kaszeta said:


> That said, I'm also wondering if we're going to end up seeing a conflict between the Red priest in Volantis (the one preaching about Dany) and Melisandre's followers.


I wondered that myself earlier.
Is there an upcoming religious schism?



LordKronos said:


> his brother - with this one there was no other way. He could just ignore renley, but sooner or later the two of them would have clashed. And beside, as Davos told him...Renly wronged him and it needed to be dealt with


Speaking of, why exactly was Renly pursuing the crown?
Stannis has a far better claim than he did.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Renly thought he'd be a better king and the people would love him.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Speaking of, why exactly was Renly pursuing the crown?
> Stannis has a far better claim than he did.





JETarpon said:


> Renly thought he'd be a better king and the people would love him.


Perhaps more to the point, he was told he'd be a better king and the people would love him, and eventually he let himself be convinced. It wasn't his idea to begin with...


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Loras convincend Renly that he'd be a great leader. Renly laughed at the idea at first, but Loras told him he was best because he cared about the people and didn't lust after power and killing. Loras told him his family could be his bankroll. That set everything into motion.

It also helped that Renly was suffering a bit from the youngest child syndrome, upset that his older brothers always teased him about how he'd never been in a war and doesn't like killing and blood.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think Loras just wanted to be queen...


----------



## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

Like the man said.. There are no good people in GOT. We may come to like certain people but .....
I have one question: What the heck happened to the young children that went to find the Ice People? You know The Stark kid that fell from the window and got paralyzed.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I have one question: What the heck happened to the young children that went to find the Ice People? You know The Stark kid that fell from the window and got paralyzed.


They're on vacation this season.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> They're on vacation this season.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> Like the man said.. There are no good people in GOT. We may come to like certain people but .....
> I have one question: What the heck happened to the young children that went to find the Ice People? You know The Stark kid that fell from the window and got paralyzed.


Stannis's daughter was good...

We haven't seen the other two Stark children this season.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Last we saw, Brand was living under a tree. We haven't seen anything about Rickon. We know where he was headed in the company of a Wildling but that's the last we heard.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Somebody else mentioned it, but I was a little surprised that Dany seemed to abandon all of her friends and they could have easily been killed.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pmyers said:


> Somebody else mentioned it, but I was a little surprised that Dany seemed to abandon all of her friends and they could have easily been killed.


I got the impression that the bad guys were all dead or fled by the time Dani flew off. And of course we have no knowledge yet of how far she flew...maybe a quick circle around the city to scare the crap out of everybody and then back to the stadium before the Harpies have a chance to regroup (if they are even so inclined)?


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I got the impression that the bad guys were all dead or fled by the time Dani flew off. And of course we have no knowledge yet of how far she flew...maybe a quick circle around the city to scare the crap out of everybody and then back to the stadium before the Harpies have a chance to regroup (if they are even so inclined)?


That's not how I remember that scene. I remember they were still surounded and severly out numbered and could have been overran at anytime, especially with no dragon around to fight.


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think Loras just wanted to be *THE* queen...


Bolded word added for my own amusement. 

(Remember what Margary told Littlefinger.)


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

But the point was to kill the queen. Once she's no longer in danger, the fight is irrelevant. The tactical thing would be to leave to fight another day, not stay and fight unsullied for no good gain.

(There's another theory that says you kill her advisors, but if they believed that, they'd ambush them when they were alone. It's the queen that's difficult to get to.)


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

pmyers said:


> Somebody else mentioned it, but I was a little surprised that Dany seemed to abandon all of her friends and they could have easily been killed.


The Sons of the Harpy conveniently fled as Drogon was taking flight.

At least they didn't have Drogon only attacking/burning Sons of the Harpy as if he knew the bad guys from the good guys.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

To talk about the Unsullied for a moment...

Killing them, by surprise, one at a time, in the stands of an arena, isolated, in close quarters, is EXACTLY the kind of attack I would expect to work. That part of the attack I accept wholeheartedly and without question. (Remember the lesson of the Red Viper? A sword is a poor choice of weapon in close quarters. Too slow to bring to bear compared to a dagger. A spear is even worse. Trying to fight, in a stadium filled with chairs and people, with a spear, against an enemy with a shorter weapon and the advantage of surprise, is a recipe for failure.)

However, once they regroup in the fighting pit, forming a unit, in an open area with room to work together, they should have been far more formidable. It appears that Dany doesn't have anybody doing practice with them, and they don't have any unit commanders. This is certainly a mistake a novice would make, but it's unacceptable that Selmy or Mormont didn't see to their continued training, especially in smaller units than the large armies. They lack discipline and structure. 

Perhaps the Unsullied, who had to give up their names, lack the concept of leadership from within, and require not just field commanders, but unit commanders at the platoon level? Grey Worm is, apparently, not up to the task. There's a reason militaries have complex command structures, and that particular breakdown illustrates it wonderfully.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I think the show just sucks at translating the Unsullied from the book to the screen in a believable way. I'm not going to justify that suckitude by envisioning an problem with command structure in the show when they've given us no reason to suggest this. So far no one even blinks an eye at yet another lame fighting performance and says "I thought you guys were supposed to be the best?"

It's just poor execution on the part of the show writers/runners/directors.


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## Cereal_Killer (Jan 5, 2007)

markb said:


> It's hard to do that you don't know who is a Harpy.
> 
> It seemed the opposite way to me. He was killed by a Harpy, therefore, not a Harpy!


Exactly. That's how i saw too. why would they kill a member of their own group?


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## Cereal_Killer (Jan 5, 2007)

madscientist said:


> I think the show just sucks at translating the Unsullied from the book to the screen in a believable way. I'm not going to justify that suckitude by envisioning an problem with command structure in the show when they've given us no reason to suggest this. So far no one even blinks an eye at yet another lame fighting performance and says "I thought you guys were supposed to be the best?"
> 
> It's just poor execution on the part of the show writers/runners/directors.


You said it!

They performed worst than an untrained mob. It's seems like a bad job from the writers making them look ineffective and weak.

Dany should ask for her money back, because those guys suck! They need to grow a pair!


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## Cereal_Killer (Jan 5, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But those were all people who "deserved it." He clearly crossed a whole new line this time by murdering a complete innocent (who also happened to be his own daughter* whom he loved)*.


Whom he loved? No way in hell in loved her!

You don't burn someone to a crisp, that you love, just to sit on some stupid throne!

All those soldiers there and no one did a damn thing. And that so-called mother of hers, too little too late. Disgusting.

I hope they all burn along with Melisandre very soon.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Ereth said:


> To talk about the Unsullied for a moment...
> 
> Killing them, by surprise, one at a time, in the stands of an arena, isolated, in close quarters, is EXACTLY the kind of attack I would expect to work. That part of the attack I accept wholeheartedly and without question. (Remember the lesson of the Red Viper? A sword is a poor choice of weapon in close quarters. Too slow to bring to bear compared to a dagger. A spear is even worse. Trying to fight, in a stadium filled with chairs and people, with a spear, against an enemy with a shorter weapon and the advantage of surprise, is a recipe for failure.)
> 
> ...


Agreed, for the most part. In the stands the Unsullied were at a distinct disadvantage, and it showed. But on the open ground, they should have been able to form up into a phalanx and protect Dany more or less indefinitely. Their shields and spears would be a significant advantage over the SoH and their shorter swords.

I just chalk this up to the showrunners either not understanding the realities of ancient fighting techniques, or (more likely) being willing to sacrifice accuracy in the name of drama.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

A good critique in Grantland's Ask the Maester: http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/ask-the-maester-dragons-human-sacrifice-and-more-dragons/

What bothers me about the scene is that it's based on a character acting in a way that's counter to how he's been depicted all series. Stannis has been depicted as one of the greatest generals in the realm. He held the Storm's End against a one-year siege by eating rats. So if the device that gets Stannis to the place where he's desperate enough to burn his only daughter and heir alive is (1) some snow and (2) a sudden and convenient ineptitude at doing war stuff, that feels off to me. Stannis, "the greatest military commander in Westeros" per Davos, is in enemy territory, on the march toward a belligerent castle, and for some reason (i.e., to make this scene happen) he doesn't have scouts out or watchmen guarding the camp or have his army - made up largely of professional mercenaries who themselves should know better - in the state of alertness necessary in a war. Also: Ramsay is now a ninja. I don't buy it.

Of course bad things happen on Game of Thrones. But when you arrive at those things through contrivances, it cheapens the shock. It's about consistent storytelling.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

To me, it seems like a bit of timeline compression. I could see things getting progressively worse for Stannis and him eventually going "bad" as he got desperate. He seemed to go very quickly from "no way" to "let's burn her!"


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

I was so waiting for Ser Davos to show up at the last minute and save the day. 

Dragooooooooooooooooooons!!!!!


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Gotta love Tyrion giving it to that annoying "King". Glad he's gone. Maybe she'll marry Tyrion!


 If you mean Dany's fiance, it wasn't Tyrion that killed him.



Bob Coxner said:


> he doesnt have scouts out or watchmen guarding the camp or have his army  made up largely of professional mercenaries who themselves should know better  in the state of alertness necessary in a war.


 He did have those things. He said "find the men on guard duty, interrogate them, and hang them". Clearly the guards were not doing their jobs.

Here's something I would have considered, if the show hadn't made it so blatantly obvious that this didn't happen this way: maybe Melisandre did it herself, to force Stannis into a position where he would be willing to sacrifice his daughter. She's a devotee of the fire god, no one saw anything and stuff just started on fire. That would be interesting... but it was completely clear from the way things were presented that it was Ramsay's sneak attack.


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

Can we get the thread title fixed? This is a dragoon:


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Perhaps more to the point, he was told he'd be a better king and the people would love him, and eventually he let himself be convinced. It wasn't his idea to begin with...





LordKronos said:


> Loras convincend Renly that he'd be a great leader. Renly laughed at the idea at first, but Loras told him he was best because he cared about the people and didn't lust after power and killing. Loras told him his family could be his bankroll. That set everything into motion.
> 
> It also helped that Renly was suffering a bit from the youngest child syndrome, upset that his older brothers always teased him about how he'd never been in a war and doesn't like killing and blood.


Now it comes back to me.
I always had the impression that Renly had more vanity than smarts.
Loras apparently shares that trait.

I am a tad surprised that in retrospect, Lady Olenna didn't nix all that "foolishness".



Ereth said:


> Perhaps the Unsullied, who had to give up their names, lack the concept of leadership from within, and require not just field commanders, but unit commanders at the platoon level? Grey Worm is, apparently, not up to the task. There's a reason militaries have complex command structures, and that particular breakdown illustrates it wonderfully.


Isn't Grey Worm still sidelined from his previous injuries?



madscientist said:


> Here's something I would have considered, if the show hadn't made it so blatantly obvious that this didn't happen this way: maybe Melisandre did it herself, to force Stannis into a position where he would be willing to sacrifice his daughter. She's a devotee of the fire god, no one saw anything and stuff just started on fire. That would be interesting... but it was completely clear from the way things were presented that it was Ramsay's sneak attack.


So you're saying that Ramsay caused it?
So in other words, Shireen's death is really Ramsay's fault.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Marco said:


> Can we get the thread title fixed? This is a dragoon:


Or this:


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

madscientist said:


> Here's something I would have considered, if the show hadn't made it so blatantly obvious that this didn't happen this way: maybe Melisandre did it herself, to force Stannis into a position where he would be willing to sacrifice his daughter. She's a devotee of the fire god, no one saw anything and stuff just started on fire. That would be interesting... but it was completely clear from the way things were presented that it was Ramsay's sneak attack.


I had a similar thought based on how quickly and spread out the fires popped up as shown on the overhead shot. Maybe Melisandre knew about Ramsay's attack and "aided him" to make sure the attack was devastating to force Stannis' hand.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

madscientist said:


> If you mean Dany's fiance, it wasn't Tyrion that killed him.


I know. I meant verbally "assaulting" him. 



Marco said:


> Can we get the thread title fixed? This is a dragoon:


The Dance *of* Dragons


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> The Dance *of* Dragons


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

The sellswords that Stannis hired deserted in the last episode--at least one group of them did. I think his plan depended on having a few more weeks of "winter is coming" and instead winter was here. They had enough supplies to get to Winterfel, but not enough to sit in a blizzard for a month. There are plenty of smart generals who had the same problem in our world trying to attack Russia.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Marco said:


>


That is the actual episode name. Dance of dragons. Not Dance with dragons. Not Dance with dragoons.


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## markbox (May 3, 2004)

I wonder how badly Sir Davos will feel when he realizes the consequence of setting Gendry free is the burning of Stanis' daughter? If Gendry were still with Stanis he would be the one burned.

I had a feeling that the high stress induced by the threat of loss of life might cause an emergence of an ability in Dany to connect with Drogon. Whether that connection is telepathy or something else remains to be seen. That sequence was incredible. Gave me the goose bumps.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> That is the actual episode name. Dance of dragons. Not Dance with dragons. Not Dance with dragoons.


A Dance WITH Dragons is the name of one of the books, which may have been the source of his confusion on the with/of part.

Speaking of which, that was the name of one of the 2 books being covered this season, the other being "A Feast for Crows", which was also a line last week's episode. They also managed to work "A Game of Thrones" into season 1's dialog, but for seasons 2/3 I believe they neglected to work the titles ("A Clash of Kings" and "A Storm of Swords") into the dialog.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

markbox said:


> I wonder how badly Sir Davos will feel when he realizes the consequence of setting Gendry free is the burning of Stanis' daughter? If Gendry were still with Stanis he would be the one burned.
> 
> I had a feeling that the high stress induced by the threat of loss of life might cause an emergence of an ability in Dany to connect with Drogon. Whether that connection is telepathy or something else remains to be seen. That sequence was incredible. Gave me the goose bumps.


Don't forget also Jon mercy-killing of Mance - who may have been that sacrifice to R'hllor they needed.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

madscientist said:


> I'm not going to justify that suckitude by envisioning an problem with command structure in the show when they've given us no reason to suggest this.


Well, to my eye, they have. Dany made Grey Worm the leader. He had no experience at the time. He had no training. We've seen no indication that they have any subcommanders of any sort. Where are the 10-commands? The platoon, the squad, the division? You don't send 8000 men into battle with one commander, you need a chain, where the top commanders send messages to those beneath and so on, down to (roughly) 5-man units.

We've been shown absolutely nobody in an Unsullied unit who gives commands, who organizes the Unsullied into any role other than large masses on large battlefields. Each of those Phalanx units MUST have a commander.

Now, it very well may be that it's just directors using untrained extras to fill in scenes where CGI Unsullied don't fit, and these untrained extras do a lousy job of replicating their CGI equivalents. And, yes, that's someones fault. But I can't in any way imagine Daenerys Targaeryn saying "These extras aren't any good, can't we get the CGI soldiers to protect me?" so since we can't have an in-story explanation that involves horrible production issues or lousy military understanding by directors, I have to look elsewhere.



JYoung said:


> Isn't Grey Worm still sidelined from his previous injuries?


And who is second-in-command? As bodyguard, the Unsullied have failed every time they've been tested. The Second Sons would do a better job.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Bob Coxner said:


> A good critique in Grantland's Ask the Maester: http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/ask-the-maester-dragons-human-sacrifice-and-more-dragons/
> 
> What bothers me about the scene is that its based on a character acting in a way thats counter to how hes been depicted all series. Stannis has been depicted as one of the greatest generals in the realm. He held the Storms End against a one-year siege by eating rats. So if the device that gets Stannis to the place where hes desperate enough to burn his only daughter and heir alive is (1) some snow and (2) a sudden and convenient ineptitude at doing war stuff, that feels off to me. Stannis, the greatest military commander in Westeros per Davos, is in enemy territory, on the march toward a belligerent castle, and for some reason (i.e., to make this scene happen) he doesnt have scouts out or watchmen guarding the camp or have his army  made up largely of professional mercenaries who themselves should know better  in the state of alertness necessary in a war. Also: Ramsay is now a ninja. I dont buy it.
> 
> Of course bad things happen on Game of Thrones. But when you arrive at those things through contrivances, it cheapens the shock. Its about consistent storytelling.


Huh. I never really got the sense that Stannis was particularly good at anything military. I maybe missed that this was supposed to be something we think. I just thought that he had a decently sized army and the covert-ops-like Melisandre guiding / doing bad things for him.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

JYoung said:


> So you're saying that Ramsay caused it?
> So in other words, Shireen's death is really Ramsay's fault.


 Why not? 



brianp6621 said:


> I had a similar thought based on how quickly and spread out the fires popped up as shown on the overhead shot. Maybe Melisandre knew about Ramsay's attack and "aided him" to make sure the attack was devastating to force Stannis' hand.


 Maybe, but it looked like she was really shocked at the beginning of the raid: she senses something odd, walks outside, and is surprised at what she sees.



secondclaw said:


> Don't forget also Jon mercy-killing of Mance - who may have been that sacrifice to R'hllor they needed.


 Well, it has to be King's blood and I don't think a self-styled "King beyond the wall" would count


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

madscientist said:


> Well, it has to be King's blood and I don't think a self-styled "King beyond the wall" would count


That is an odd view to take. Kings are not named by the gods in their world. Kings take the throne by force and/or skullduggery (with perhaps some persuasion thrown in the mix). The Baratheons are no more (or less) special than the king of the wildings.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

madscientist said:


> Why not?
> 
> Maybe, but it looked like she was really shocked at the beginning of the raid: she senses something odd, walks outside, and is surprised at what she sees.


Possibly/probably, but maybe she sensed it and then capitalized on it real time?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Huh. I never really got the sense that Stannis was particularly good at anything military. I maybe missed that this was supposed to be something we think. I just thought that he had a decently sized army and the covert-ops-like Melisandre guiding / doing bad things for him.


Really? They've kind of hit us over the head numerous times with Stannis' apparent military prowess, although it's mainly been people just talking about it.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

It sounded like he had guards - they were either bribed or fell asleep.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Really? They've kind of hit us over the head numerous times with Stannis' apparent military prowess, although it's mainly been people just talking about it.


I think The Blackwater dispelled any argument on how great Stannis' military prowess is, regardless of what people may say.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> I think The Blackwater dispelled any argument on how great Stannis' military prowess is, regardless of what people may say.


Well, all the military prowess in the world isn't going to help if the other side secretly has weapons of mass destruction and is willing to use them...


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, all the military prowess in the world isn't going to help if the other side secretly has weapons of mass destruction and is willing to use them...


I call that bad scouting 



> Originally Posted by brianp6621 View Post
> That is the actual episode name. Dance of dragons. Not Dance with dragons. Not Dance with dragoons.


Mike fixed us up!


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Now, it very well may be that it's just directors using untrained extras to fill in scenes where CGI Unsullied don't fit, and these untrained extras do a lousy job of replicating their CGI equivalents. And, yes, that's someones fault. But I can't in any way imagine Daenerys Targaeryn saying "These extras aren't any good, can't we get the CGI soldiers to protect me?" so since we can't have an in-story explanation that involves horrible production issues or lousy military understanding by directors, I have to look elsewhere.


I can't imagine Daenerys knowing what CGI is.




Ereth said:


> And who is second-in-command? As bodyguard, the Unsullied have failed every time they've been tested. The Second Sons would do a better job.


Yellow Worm? 
Cyan Worm?
Fuchsia Worm?

To be fair, of all the Unsullied, only Grey Worm has had any character development. The rest are all redshirts.

I agree that The Unsullied haven't been portrayed well as of late.
I'm not sure what the issue is, whether it's Martin, the rest of the producers, or the director.

I know that during the arena sequence, the thought that the Unsullied were sucking was in the back of my mind.

I realize that things in the arena had to look dire to set up for the big "Deus Ex Dragonina" moment, but in the result is that since taking Meereen, the Unsullied have been portrayed less as "a elite fighting force feared throughout the Seven Realms" and more "Keystone Cops".


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> I think The Blackwater dispelled any argument on how great Stannis' military prowess is, regardless of what people may say.


Seriously? Stannis attacked, was surprised by a pretty unprecedented attack that decimated his navy, and even then he still nearly won the battle. The only reason he lost was that Loras came to the rescue at the last minute. Highgarden had THE largest army in Westeros. Even after Renley's death and a bunch of Renly's soldiers joined up with Stannis, the majority of that army remained with Loras and returned to Highgarden.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Really? They've kind of hit us over the head numerous times with Stannis' apparent military prowess, although it's mainly been people just talking about it.


Yes. Ned talked about how great of a commander he was. So did Renly. Davos and Stannis talked extensively about the siege at Storms End and how Stannis held it against all odds. Davos told the Iron Bank how great he was. If you went back and counted, there's probably 8 or 10 difference times we've been told how great he is as a military leader.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Seriously? Stannis attacked, was surprised by a pretty unprecedented attack that decimated his navy, and even then he still nearly won the battle. The only reason he lost was that Loras came to the rescue at the last minute. Highgarden had THE largest army in Westeros. Even after Renley's death and a bunch of Renly's soldiers joined up with Stannis, the majority of that army remained with Loras and returned to Highgarden.


Yeah, this. Even after his navy was decimated by wildfire - like anyone was going to anticipate that - he would have taken King's Landing had not the Lannisters *and* the Tyrells shown up at the last minute.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Yes. Ned talked about how great of a commander he was. So did Renly. Davos and Stannis talked extensively about the siege at Storms End and how Stannis held it against all odds. Davos told the Iron Bank how great he was. If you went back and counted, there's probably 8 or 10 difference times we've been told how great he is as a military leader.


And then Littlefinger talked about it this season as well.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Well, to my eye, they have. Dany made Grey Worm the leader. He had no experience at the time. He had no training. We've seen no indication that they have any subcommanders of any sort.
> 
> Now, it very well may be that it's just directors using untrained extras to fill in scenes where CGI Unsullied don't fit, and these untrained extras do a lousy job of replicating their CGI equivalents. And, yes, that's someones fault. But I can't in any way imagine Daenerys Targaeryn saying "These extras aren't any good, can't we get the CGI soldiers to protect me?" so since we can't have an in-story explanation that involves horrible production issues or lousy military understanding by directors, I have to look elsewhere.


I _don't_ have to look elsewhere, that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm blaming the production team, squarely. It's just bad TV.

If it were really the case that, in the show, all these problems existed then someone would surely say something about it. Your position is we haven't seen anyone take on these roles so they're going unfilled and the army is a mess. My position is that because we haven't had any discussion of anyone taking on these roles AND because no one, not even people who know a lot about military tactics such as Daario or Barristan, has ever raised this as a problem, that we must assume there are no issues here: in fact the roles _are_ being filled and people with lots of experience have no complaints about the quality of the command structure.

Since the characters in the show seem to feel the Unsullied are doing a fine job, but we can see that they suck, that means the production is poor. Personally I don't want to spend a lot of mental energy trying to figure out an in-show justification for poor production quality .


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

madscientist said:


> Personally I don't want to spend a lot of mental energy trying to figure out an in-show justification for poor production quality .


Then how do you expect to win a No-Prize?

(as for how much mental energy it took - less than 2 minutes of thinking? Mostly in the back of my head where I wasn't paying attention to it? I've been playing military board games since I was -11? 12? somewhere in there. These things are obvious to me, not something I have to spend any time doing analysis on. My own military service had no land-based troop component whatsoever, so I do not claim expertise in how it is done, only knowledge that it must be done. Failures in discipline lose battles. The Unsullied, we are told, don't lose battles. They must have incredible discipline. That I can believe from what we've seen, but we've seen absolutely nothing of their command structure. Dany knows nothing of commanding an army. Selmy was a Kingsguard, a unit that consists of roughly 12 people. Mormont - well, the old Bear could command, surely, but was Jorah a singular Knight with no command before being chased across the Narrow Sea? We don't know. Daario is the lone advisor who we know actually knows how an army works, even if it's sellswords, and he has specifically advised Dany that the Unsullied do a poor job of patrolling the streets. He asked that the task be given to the Second Sons. That was on camera. Dany denied him. She thinks an army can be a police force. She's wrong. It's the wrong tool for the job. (We saw the same problem in Baghdad, you may recall.). Armies and Police Forces have different goals and different training. Neither is good at the others job.)


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Where are the 10-commands? The platoon, the squad, the division? You don't send 8000 men into battle with one commander, you need a chain, where the top commanders send messages to those beneath and so on, down to (roughly) 5-man units.
> 
> We've been shown absolutely nobody in an Unsullied unit who gives commands, who organizes the Unsullied into any role other than large masses on large battlefields. Each of those Phalanx units MUST have a commander.


We have been shown that there is at least SOME organization. When Dany first got the Unsullied, they showed a small group of the officers, from which Grey Worm was chosen as their superior. So it's at least a 3 level organization (Grey Worm -> officers -> soldiers)


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

pjenkins said:


> I think The Blackwater dispelled any argument on how great Stannis' military prowess is, regardless of what people may say.


Stannis got beat by wildfire that no one anticipated and an army reinforcement led by another great strategist and with one of the greatest swordsmen in the realm leading it.

He would have won otherwise. Tyrion knew it, which is why he went for the unorthodox approach.

ETA: I can see the above points were brought up by many users. Sorry for the pile on.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> If Arya goes after Trant, doesn't that mean she fails in being faceless and giving up being Arya Stark?





mooseAndSquirrel said:


> It seemed like Trant recognized Arya. Would he? I'm not all that attentive a viewer, so the killing of the dancing instructor is something I never would have remembered. I count on TCF to keep me on track! But Arya Stark should be pretty recognizable anyway, one would think.





astrohip said:


> I don't think he outright recognized her, or he would have taken action. I think it was more along the lines of "I know I know that girl, who is she...?"


I've been wondering something about Arya since she took on the oyster girl persona, and seeing her with Trant made me wonder again.

Probably a stupid question, but does everyone see her with Arya's face? Or do others see her with the oyster girl's face?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> I've been wondering something about Arya since she took on the oyster girl persona, and seeing her with Trant made me wonder again.
> 
> Probably a stupid question, but does everyone see her with Arya's face? Or do others see her with the oyster girl's face?


I had not considered that she would be wearing a face!

But I would think that they would have shown us that had it been the case. Also, the guy told her she would not become a faceless one, but that she could still be "something else".


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> *But I would think that they would have shown us that had it been the case.* Also, the guy told her she would not become a faceless one, but that she could still be "something else".


I would think so. That's why I've hesitated asking, because I would have thought they would make it obvious, but then again I was wondering if I had missed something. They surely wouldn't want to change actresses....or at least I hope not!

Him telling her she would not be faceless but could be "something else" is probably what I missed. Thanks!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Really? They've kind of hit us over the head numerous times with Stannis' apparent military prowess, although it's mainly been people just talking about it.


Right. People talk about it but we've never seen it. I thought it was more of a situation where people think he has great military prowess but in fact he just has the supernatural edge and the occasional surprise attack. Have we ever seen him win a battle in the show? I guess the one at The Wall. Contrast that to Robb Stark who was repeatedly shown to actually win battles. In the show, all we see is him floundering for the most part.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Isn't Grey Worm still sidelined from his previous injuries?


When Dany and friends were being attacked by the Harpies, I hoped someone would yell "They're playing Grey Worm's music! They're playing Grey Worm's music!" and he'd come limping from the tunnel laying waste to all the Sons of the Harpy in his path. Yes, I watched too much pro wrestling in my youth.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> Right. People talk about it but we've never seen it. I thought it was more of a situation where people think he has great military prowess but in fact he just has the supernatural edge and the occasional surprise attack. Have we ever seen him win a battle in the show? I guess the one at The Wall. Contrast that to Robb Stark who was repeatedly shown to actually win battles. In the show, all we see is him floundering for the most part.


I don't agree. People talk about him that way because he's won many (all?) battles. They happened before the show started so we don't have to see it to make it true. He didn't align with Mellissandre until recently; so his victories to date have been fairly won (sans magic).

So, basically, IMO, everything in your post is not correct


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Stannis won against Renly because of the magic - we have no evidence that he would have won otherwise - in fact he likely would have lost as Renly had a stronger force.

Stannis won against the Free Folk because he was a real army and they aren't.

Stannis holed up at Dragonstone which is hardly a great military victory.

Stannis lost against The Tyrells and Lannisters. His approach to the attack on Kings Landing enabled the use of the wildfire to the navy and was well known before he attacked that he would be doing so. His attack on the walls of the city failed to protect his flanks and back and was routed by the superior positioning of the Tyrell and Lannister forces. Great general? Not in my view.

Other than people claiming he is great, where is any evidence in the show (or books) that he is a great battlefield commander? I don't see it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Stannis didn't materialize out of thin air. By the time we first saw him, he had already established a reputation as an excellent military commander by winning wars and being a fearless fighter.

IIRC, he led Robert's army to one victory after another. He wasn't sitting around farting in his bathtub until Robert died and then rose up and said "I'm going to be a military leader now".

If this is hard to understand, I can't help you!


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Stannis didn't materialize out of thin air. By the time we first saw him, he had already established a reputation as an excellent military commander by winning wars and being a fearless fighter.
> 
> IIRC, he led Robert's army to one victory after another. He wasn't sitting around farting in his bathtub until Robert died and then rose up and said "I'm going to be a military leader now".
> 
> If this is hard to understand, I can't help you!


I think we can agree that whatever class of general he has been in the past, his current record is a little lacking. I blame the Red Woman. In fact I bet one of her deities portfolios includes Strife. By starting a war she is gaining the favor of her god.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I'm now hoping that episode 10 shows us the kings blood magic completely failing to do anything, and yet Stannis still overwhelms the easy-to-defend Winterfell, just so we can put this to rest


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

LordKronos said:


> I'm now hoping that episode 10 shows us the kings blood magic completely failing to do anything, and yet Stannis still overwhelms the easy-to-defend Winterfell, just so we can put this to rest


Watch the finale trailer. 


Spoiler



It shows Melisandre standing behind melting icicles saying that the Lord of Light has made good on his promise. The blood magic isn't going away.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Stannis didn't materialize out of thin air. By the time we first saw him, he had already established a reputation as an excellent military commander by winning wars and being a fearless fighter.
> 
> IIRC, he led Robert's army to one victory after another. He wasn't sitting around farting in his bathtub until Robert died and then rose up and said "I'm going to be a military leader now".
> 
> If this is hard to understand, I can't help you!


I'm not sure what battles you are speaking of, but I don't recall them being expressly shown or even really stated in any meaningful way. Maybe it's from the books, maybe not. If their intent is for us to, despite the instances pjenkins named, believe him to be a great military leader, then they are failing pretty miserably at it. If it is things from the book then, much like the rape scene in the tomb, I suspect the show has done a poor job of conveying this.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

nickels said:


> Watch the finale trailer.


I wouldn't dare spoil ANY of the drama of this awesome show...not even for a mere 4 days.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> I'm not sure what battles you are speaking of, but I don't recall them being expressly shown or even really stated in any meaningful way. Maybe it's from the books, maybe not. If their intent is for us to, despite the instances pjenkins named, believe him to be a great military leader, then they are failing pretty miserably at it. If it is things from the book then, much like the rape scene in the tomb, I suspect the show has done a poor job of conveying this.


OMG. No, it's not from the book. We've been told on this show 8-10 times, from at least 5 different characters, how great of a military guy Stannis is. Do I need to dig through my closed captions and post all the quotes?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> OMG. No, it's not from the book. We've been told on this show 8-10 times, from at least 5 different characters, how great of a military guy Stannis is. Do I need to dig through my closed captions and post all the quotes?


We've seen scenes where people say he's a great military leader, but we have seen only evidence to the contrary when there is an actual battle. Rarely if ever do we have people discussing specific battles and his use of military prowess to win them.

I have always interpreted it in a dramatic irony sense, because when we have seen him be successful, for the most part it is not his own doing or his military prowess.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

LordKronos said:


> OMG. No, it's not from the book. We've been told on this show 8-10 times, from at least 5 different characters, how great of a military guy Stannis is. Do I need to dig through my closed captions and post all the quotes?


I've said over and over again that others have SAID he's a great military guy. My point is that you'd never know it from watching the show...


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Saw this and laughed:

Kerry Ingram, Who Plays Shireen Baratheon On 'Game Of Thrones,' Is Healthy And Adorable On Twitter


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> I've said over and over again that others have SAID he's a great military guy. My point is that you'd never know it from watching the show...


And you'd never know that the unsullied are great warriors.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Jstkiddn said:


> I would think so. That's why I've hesitated asking, because I would have thought they would make it obvious, but then again I was wondering if I had missed something. They surely wouldn't want to change actresses....or at least I hope not!
> 
> Him telling her she would not be faceless but could be "something else" is probably what I missed. Thanks!


I wonder how they're going to deal with this going forward. Obviously if she does well, she's supposed to be able to change into faces from the basement for whatever reason. But we don't want to lose the actress, so we don't really want that to happen. I wonder if they could do something where we see Maisey, but others see something else?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Another epic episode


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

JETarpon said:


> And you'd never know that the unsullied are great warriors.


Agreed, but for Grey Worm most have been shown to be easily defeated in close quarter combat


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

pjenkins said:


> Saw this and laughed:
> 
> Kerry Ingram, Who Plays Shireen Baratheon On Game Of Thrones, Is Healthy And Adorable On Twitter


She is too cute. I clicked follow and then notice she already has 11K!


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

gossamer88 said:


> She is too cute. I clicked follow and then notice she already has 11K!


I was surprised she was 16, I thought she looked much younger, like 12 or 13.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> I wonder how they're going to deal with this going forward. Obviously if she does well, she's supposed to be able to change into faces from the basement for whatever reason. But we don't want to lose the actress, so we don't really want that to happen. I wonder if they could do something where we see Maisey, but others see something else?


I feel like they've already addressed this. There's a line about how "a girl will not become no one but a girl will become someone else."

I take that to mean she's not going to become a faceless "man" but that she will become a changed person.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> And you'd never know that the unsullied are great warriors.


That seems like a clear error in the filmmaking to me, unlike how I interpreted the Stannis situation. This whole time, I had assumed that the Stannis situation was intentional dramatic irony, but clearly I must be mistaken. That is kind of disappointing, because I thought it was a pretty amusing and savvy theme in the story.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Saw this on teh twitter, and I about died:


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> I think we can agree that whatever class of general he has been in the past, his current record is a little lacking.





pjenkins said:


> I've said over and over again that others have SAID he's a great military guy. My point is that you'd never know it from watching the show...





TAsunder said:


> That seems like a clear error in the filmmaking to me, unlike how I interpreted the Stannis situation. This whole time, I had assumed that the Stannis situation was intentional dramatic irony, but clearly I must be mistaken. That is kind of disappointing, because I thought it was a pretty amusing and savvy theme in the story.


From watching the show? No, you'd never know it, except for the time he had his army decimated by a weapon nobody could have anticipated, and then STILL came so close to sieging Kings Landing that Cersei had a vial of poison pressed against her sons lips. Now if you actually LISTEN to the dialog in addition to watching, then you'd know a whole lot more.

Seriously, where are these comic highjinks that make Stannis look like a blundering fool? We've seem an incredible performance at Blackwater. We've seen him beat the wildlings (not a major feat, granted, but certainly nothing that makes him look bad). The only thing I can think of that makes him look bad is that some guards fells asleep at night or something and their camp was raided as a result.

If you completely ignore the dialog we've been given, the little evidence we've seen has still been fairly impressive.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Saw this on teh twitter, and I about died:


Wow, that is greatness


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

LordKronos said:


> From watching the show? No, you'd never know it, except for the time he had his army decimated by a weapon nobody could have anticipated, and then STILL came so close to sieging Kings Landing that Cersei had a vial of poison pressed against her sons lips. Now if you actually LISTEN to the dialog in addition to watching, then you'd know a whole lot more.


ha, like I don't listen. please. he was not even CLOSE to taking over Kings Landing, he completely got out maneuvered by the Lannisters and Tyrells and they suckered him in perfectly, from forcing his navy into a narrow ship-next-to-ship position to out flanking him with superior force deployments.



LordKronos said:


> Seriously, where are these comic highjinks that make Stannis look like a blundering fool? We've seem an incredible performance at Blackwater. We've seen him beat the wildlings (not a major feat, granted, but certainly nothing that makes him look bad). The only thing I can think of that makes him look bad is that some guards fells asleep at night or something and their camp was raided as a result.
> 
> If you completely ignore the dialog we've been given, the little evidence we've seen has still been fairly impressive.


No, it isn't. And it's a long way between "blundering fool" which no one has stated he is, to "great military commander and best of Westeros", which has been shown *in the show* to not be the case.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

pjenkins said:


> ha, like I don't listen. please. he was not even CLOSE to taking over Kings Landing, he completely got out maneuvered by the Lannisters and Tyrells and they suckered him in perfectly, from forcing his navy into a narrow ship-next-to-ship position to out flanking him with superior force deployments.


I don't remember him being out maneuvered. Kings landing was LUCKY the Lannisters and Tyrells decided to come charging in at the last minute. That was NOT planned. Kings landing was about to fall and then he was blindsided with 2 armies that he wasn't aware were part of the battle. And that was AFTER the wildfire fiasco.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> ha, like I don't listen. please. he was not even CLOSE to taking over Kings Landing


Really? So Cersei was about to kill her own son just for the kicks of it? About to have all the women in the Red Keep executed (to keep them from the inevitable rape that was just about to occur) just because she imagined it? Tyrion was desperate enough to go out himself and engage in hand to hand combat because it was totally unnecessary?



> he completely got out maneuvered by the Lannisters and Tyrells and they suckered him in perfectly, from forcing his navy into a narrow ship-next-to-ship position to out flanking him with superior force deployments.


Wow, that like seriously never happened. Suckered in? Forcing his navy? Please tell me...how do you "force" a navy to do something entirely from land, without firing a single shot?

Admittedly Tyrion did a FANTASTIC job with the King's Landings defense. But Stannis nearly won that battle, and would have were it not for the last minute reenforcements. And in that event, Stannis' fight was further complicated when (from the book):


Spoiler



1) Loras showed up in Renly's armor, making soldiers cower and run thinking Renly's ghost had returned to avenge his death and punish them for joining withStannis, and 2) 8000 of Stannis' bannermen felt outnumbered and spontaneously changed allegiance.

Looking up numbers from the book, Stannis had 21,000 men (before the wildfire) vs King's Landings 8,000 men (who have the advantage of being the defending force in the capital city). King's landing was then saved by 65,000 troops. 50,000 of them he had no reason to believe would ever be there to defend the city.





> No, it isn't. And it's a long way between "blundering fool" which no one has stated he is


 Well, that's certainly the way I took TAsunder's comment about dramatic irony making it an amusing theme.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

LordKronos said:


> Really? So Cersei was about to kill her own son just for the kicks of it? About to have all the women in the Red Keep executed (to keep them from the inevitable rape that was just about to occur) just because she imagined it? Tyrion was desperate enough to go out himself and engage in hand to hand combat because it was totally unnecessary?


They weren't the generals of the armies, that would be Tywin.



LordKronos said:


> Wow, that like seriously never happened. Suckered in? Forcing his navy? Please tell me...how do you "force" a navy to do something entirely from land, without firing a single shot?


Tyrion ordered the blacksmiths to devote all their time and steel to constructing a massive chain which would allow the defenders to close off the Blackwater Rush, and he moved all the crown's ships away from the area -



LordKronos said:


> Admittedly Tyrion did a FANTASTIC job with the King's Landings defense. But Stannis nearly won that battle


Nearly won is losing, and he lost to Tyrion, making it impossible for Stannis to be the best commander in Westeros, by definition!



LordKronos said:


> Well, that's certainly the way I took TAsunder's comment about dramatic irony making it an amusing theme.


That's not my view. My view is that Stannis was a very capable commander and a great asset in Robert's rebellion. But he is hardly the "best commander in Westeros" - that's just spoken hyperbole.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> They weren't the generals of the armies, that would be Tywin.


I'm not sure what your point is. I never said they were generals. I was saying they were so close to defeat, the people were willing to take dramatic measures.



> Tyrion ordered the blacksmiths to devote all their time and steel to constructing a massive chain which would allow the defenders to close off the Blackwater Rush, and he moved all the crown's ships away from the area


Yeah, but that didn't force the ships into any specific configuration like you said. The chain was to prevent their retreat after the wildfire was unleashed.



> Nearly won is losing, and he lost to Tyrion, making it impossible for Stannis to be the best commander in Westeros, by definition!


I'm sorry, but I don't see how that follows? So the worlds best commander will always win? Whoever happens to be the best commander in the world...you give him 10 men and tell him to conquer the entire continent, and he'll win? That fact that you lost to vastly superior numbers does not make the enemy superior in skill.



> That's not my view.


That's fine, but you will note I was replying to 3 posters at once.



> My view is that Stannis was a very capable commander and a great asset in Robert's rebellion. But he is hardly the "best commander in Westeros" - that's just spoken hyperbole.


That's fine. Maybe he is the best, maybe he's just ONE OF the best. But a number of the posts (yours included) have suggested he isn't really that great.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

I'm with the people who think Stannis isn't being shown to be the military genius that he is said to be. I didn't read the books so I'm just going by what I see. It's a little funny to read the posts by Stannis supporters (I'm surprised there are any) saying he "would have won" at Blackwater except for being "blindsided"'by the wildfire and the "last minute"'arrival of two huge armies. Um, great strategists don't get blindsided, especially by the arrival of two huge armies. 

Same with the unsullied. Lots of talk about how massive the army is, how they're the best fighters and so on. All I see are some guys in gold Halloween masks doing whatever they want to do and the unsullied not doing much to stop them. Maybe the unsullied got their name because they don't like getting sullied.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

tivoboyjr said:


> It's a little funny to read the posts by Stannis supporters (I'm surprised there are any) saying he "would have won" at Blackwater except for being "blindsided"'by the wildfire and the "last minute"'arrival of two huge armies. Um, great strategists don't get blindsided, especially by the arrival of two huge armies.


Stannis probably could have handled Tywin's army alone. However, he didn't expect to have to do even that. Tywin was engaged with battling Rob Stark's army. If Tywin stayed and battled, he wouldn't be Stannis' concern. If he went for Kings Landing and Rob Stark followed, Tywin would be pinned between Stannis and Rob Stark. Twyin took a huge calculated risk. He essentially left Casterly Rock nearly defenseless, ripe for Robb to pick, and sent his troops to Kings Landing under the cover of nightfall so that Rob couldn't follow in time. Tywin lucked out that he neither got pinned between the two nor suffered an assault on Casterly Rock.

Stannis had no reason to believe the Tyrell's army would be a concern. They were also against the Lannisters, and he had absolutely no way of knowing those 2 enemies of each other had formed a secret alliance. And to the comment earlier that Stannis got out maneuvered by the Lannisters and Tyrells, according to the book, the Lannisters actually didn't know the Tyrells had even accepted their offer until they suddenly showed up.

Both armies arrived in the nick of time. A few hours later, and Kings Landing would have already fallen.

As for the wildfire, again, it was a pretty unprecedented attack. Wildfire was pretty rare, and extremely dangerous. It's so fragile, you are at extreme risk of igniting it accidentally. According to the book, it's also gotten more difficult to manufacture over the years, but recently the pyromancers got better at doing so. Tyrion lucked out in that Cersei was foolish enough to commission the creation of such a ridiculously dangerous quantity of the stuff to launch from catapults. Bronn pointed out that it would likely do more damage to the city itself than it would the ships. Tyrion had a sort of dilemma in that somebody had done something absolutely insane, and he had to make the best of it. It actually worked out to his advantage. But it's hard to think that Stannis should have anticipated such an attack. That's sort of like saying the Japanese should have anticipated the atomic bomb. It's extremely difficult to anticipate something that's never been done before.

I'm not sure why recognizing Stannis' ability equates to Stannis supporter. Is it not possible to have an objective opinion about things? The Nazi's did a lot of brilliant things during WW2...does recognizing that make me a Nazi supporter?

And finally: "great strategists don't get blindsided"? How can you say that? I think of all people in GoT, Tywin is probably the most indisputable "great strategist", and even he was blindsided by Robb. Great strategist does not equal infallible.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

I just don't see anything in the show equating to Stannis being a great strategist or great leader or great anything. As someone else mentioned, all of the references to his brilliance kind of seemed like a joke to me. I'll state once again that a great strategist doesn't get blindsided. He has spies, lookouts and so on. Large armies don't make sneak attacks. If you get surprised by the presence of not one but two large armies, that is not evidence of your brilliance. If all of your guards/lookouts fall asleep or aren't at their posts or whatever happened and your food supply gets burned, I don't see how the Stannis apologists (maybe a better word than "supporters") can fail to assign blame for that to Stannis. I don't see "great" and Stannis going together in anything I've seen on the show. And, really, he doesn't accomplish much of anything without his witchy girlfriend and her black magic.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

tivoboyjr said:


> I'll state once again that a great strategist doesn't get blindsided. He has spies, lookouts and so on. Large armies don't make sneak attacks.


So I'll also put you down in the "Tywin is not a great strategist" column . And with that, I think no more need be said about the matter.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> So I'll also put you down in the "Tywin is not a great strategist" column . And with that, I think no more need be said about the matter.


Okay  but the show did much more to support the case for Tywin being brilliant than Stannis.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

tivoboyjr said:


> Okay  but the show did much more to support the case for Tywin being brilliant than Stannis.


Nope, nope. a great strategist doesn't get blindsided. If it's as simple as that, then Twyin's not great, much less brilliant.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)




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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

We've never seen Ser Barrister fight. We only heard about it from other people. They "said" he was the best fighter in Westeros. In the only fight we saw, he lost and died.

Ergo, Ser Barrister was a terrible fighter.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I never really got the impression that Stannis was a military genius. He was formidable, but was that because of his smarts, or because he had a large, well-trained army? I don't hold his loss to Tyrion against him, particularly since he was clearly winning in conventional battle. Tyrion turned the tables by getting unconventional, and besides, Tyrion is just plain awesome.  But, unlike Tywin, I didn't see much in Stannis that screamed military genius. Good for sure, but was he in the same league as Rob Stark or Tywin Lannister? Maybe, but they didn't do a great job of showing it on the show.

OTOH, neither Rob nor Tywin are plotting great campaigns lately, so I guess Stannis wins in the long term.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Anubys said:


> We've never seen Ser Barrister fight. We only heard about it from other people. They "said" he was the best fighter in Westeros. In the only fight we saw, he lost and died.


He was old. No one was claiming he was still the best fighter in Westeros, as they are with Stannis and his 'title'.



Anubys said:


> Ergo, Ser Barrister was a terrible fighter.


Ergo, your argument is silly.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Nope, nope. a great strategist doesn't get blindsided. If it's as simple as that, then Twyin's not great, much less brilliant.


General Douglas MacArthur is considered by many to be one of the greatest strategists in US military history. He was massively blindsided twice. Once by the Japanese in WWII while he was in command of the Philippines. Then again in Korea when he pushed to the Yalu River and was blindsided by the Chinese counterattack. Despite those examples his conception and execution of the Inchon landings in Korea was brilliant, as well as most of the rest of his military career covering three major wars.

If a general engages in enough battles there will always be a chance of being blindsided, no matter how good the general is. Eisenhower, for example, was a truly great strategist but he was still blindsided by the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Bob Coxner said:


> General Douglas MacArthur is considered by many to be one of the greatest strategists in US military history. He was massively blindsided twice. Once by the Japanese in WWII while he was in command of the Philippines. Then again in Korea when he pushed to the Yalu River and was blindsided by the Chinese counterattack. Despite those examples his conception and execution of the Inchon landings in Korea was brilliant, as well as most of the rest of his military career covering three major wars.
> 
> If a general engages in enough battles there will always be a chance of being blindsided, no matter how good the general is. Eisenhower, for example, was a truly great strategist but he was still blindsided by the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge.


Just for the record (in case you didn't catch who said what), I'll state I was being facetious in that post. Your reply (which I agree with completely, and is exactly what I've been trying to say) really should have quoted tivoboyjr, who is the one who actually said great strategists don't get blindsided.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pjenkins said:


> He was old. No one was claiming he was still the best fighter in Westeros, as they are with Stannis and his 'title'.
> 
> Ergo, your argument is silly.


Of course it's silly. But it's your argument, not mine. The show establishes "truths" by having people tell you the history by talking about it. It's why we had all those sex and brothel scenes early in seasons 1 and 2.

People talk to each other about things that are known or have happened in the past. Some of these things is the story of Castamere or Ser Barrister's fighting prowess. You did not see them, but they happened. And one of these things is that that Stannis is a an excellent fighter and military leader because of all the battles he has won.

So to dismiss the history that has been told to us by NUMEROUS well-informed people in Westeros and which has been established as historical fact on the show because they didn't show it to you is what is silly.

I'm not denying that he has not had a good run on the show, but I am not denying what the show has established as fact about Stannis before we ever laid eyes on him.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Anubys said:


> We've never seen Ser Barrister fight. We only heard about it from other people. They "said" he was the best fighter in Westeros. In the only fight we saw, he lost and died.
> 
> Ergo, Ser Barrister was a terrible fighter.


We saw him fight a bit in earlier seasons, didn't we?


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Anubys said:


> I'm not denying that he has not had a good run on the show


Then you agree with me. The show has done a POOR job of showing much about how great Stannis is on the leadership front.



Anubys said:


> , but I am not denying what the show has established as fact about Stannis before we ever laid eyes on him.


Perhaps it's the same as Barrister - Stannis WAS a great military commander, but in the current events of the show, for whatever reasons, he's not what he was


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pjenkins said:


> Then you agree with me. The show has done a POOR job of showing much about how great Stannis is on the leadership front.
> 
> Perhaps it's the same as Barrister - Stannis WAS a great military commander, but in the current events of the show, for whatever reasons, he's not what he was


I think we can all agree that he is excellent at burning people.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> We saw him fight a bit in earlier seasons, didn't we?


I don't recall that. But don't count on my memory!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> Perhaps it's the same as Barrister - Stannis WAS a great military commander, but in the current events of the show, for whatever reasons, he's not what he was


Just goes to show what happens when people let religion interfere with their lives...


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Anubys said:


> I think we can all agree that he is excellent at burning people.


LOL! Still feel horrible for Shireen, such a well done bit of film making. Watched the episode again last night for the fourth time and it was still gut wrenching...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

An earlier poster (sorry, too lazy to find out who) said the screams were worse the second time he/she watched.

I remember thinking how true that was when I later watched the episode again.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> An earlier poster (sorry, too lazy to find out who) said the screams were worse the second time he/she watched.
> 
> I remember thinking how true that was when I later watched the episode again.


That was me. The first time through, she's screaming away, but you aren't focused on that... You're busy thinking "is stannis gonna relent? Will her mother stop it? Is Davis going to ride back in the nick of time? Is her grayscale + fire going to turn her into a dragon?" (Okay, maybe not the last one, but after all the dialogue devoted to it, I thought it was going to be for some reason...other than establishing how strong their bond is just so stannis can break it). On the second time through, your just thinking "OK, she's gonna die now. Yep she's screaming. She's really screaming. Wow, she's sure screaming a lot. Wow, those are some really terrible scream. Wow, the screaming hasn't stopped yet. OK that was her last scream. Ohh, no it wasn't. "


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## bobino (Jul 24, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I think we can all agree that he is excellent at burning people.


We actually don't know if he's good at burning people. Have you seen him burn anyone? Is that all just talk from characters that saw him burn someone before the story starts?

Stannis didn't even burn Shireen. He doesn't have the honor shown by the Starks. If that was so, he would have started the fire instead of allowing Melisandre to do it.

The only think we know he's good at is fathering a smokey ghost by a Red Priestess. But no one talks about that. Apparently he could only do it once.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

bobino said:


> The only think we know he's good at is fathering a smokey ghost by a Red Priestess. But no one talks about that. Apparently he could only do it once.


I'm guessing there are performance issues.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> I'm guessing there are performance issues.


Can't she just whip up some magical Viagra?

Who would she have to kill?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Can't she just whip up some magical Viagra?
> 
> Who would she have to kill?


Pod, perhaps. Apparently he is good in that department. If you believe what others say about him...


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Tonight on "How it's Made", the "Epic Fantasy Where Lots of Characters Die Edition".


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Pod, perhaps. Apparently he is good in that department. If you believe what others say about him...


No we can't believe that. They haven't _shown_ us.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Can't she just whip up some magical Viagra?
> 
> Who would she have to kill?


I'd suggest Prince Oberyn but he's already dead.

Or is that why Dwarf parts are so prized?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Can't she just whip up some magical Viagra?
> 
> Who would she have to kill?





JYoung said:


> I'd suggest Prince Oberyn but he's already dead.
> 
> Or is that why Dwarf parts are so prized?


According to Tyrion, only if you suck on the parts.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> According to Tyrion, only if you suck on the parts.


But what does Tyrion know about magic?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I rewatched last night. Before Drogon came to save the day, I thought Dany closed her eyes as a sign that she was going to die. Looking at it again, it seemed it was more like she was about to communicate to Dragon, which of course was no longer necessary as he sensed she was in danger.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> I rewatched last night. Before Drogon came to save the day, I thought Dany closed her eyes as a sign that she was going to die. Looking at it again, it seemed it was more like she was about to communicate to Dragon, which of course was no longer necessary as he sensed she was in danger.


She can't communicate with them. At least not yet and at least not knowingly. If she could, she wouldn't have had to trap the other two in the dungeon. She would have just told them to stop eating humans. She was preparing to die.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I don't think she was preparing to die, I think she was trying to communicate with him. Praying, almost.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Robin said:


> I don't think she was preparing to die, I think she was trying to communicate with him. Praying, almost.


Praying I will take. As far as she knew, he was on the next continent.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

BeanMeScot said:


> Praying I will take. As far as she knew, he was on the next continent.


Just because she didn't know where he was and thought she couldn't communicate doesn't mean she wasn't trying to.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> Just because she didn't know where he was and thought she couldn't communicate doesn't mean she wasn't trying to.


Doesn't mean she was. It's not like she had just been telling everyone "I wish Drogon were here. He would take care of this". She has been in danger before and Drogon has never come to her rescue.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

And just because he didn't listen in the past doesn't mean she can't communicate with him.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

We have never had anyone in the series talk about how good she is at communicating with them, ergo she must be great at it!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I know it's all fun and games, but it's worth noting that there is a difference between characters talking about something and the show never showing it and characters talking about something and the show showing the opposite.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

There's also a difference between characters talking about something, and writers/directors not being very good at showing it.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> Doesn't mean she was. It's not like she had just been telling everyone "I wish Drogon were here. He would take care of this". She has been in danger before and Drogon has never come to her rescue.


I'm not the only one who thought so.

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/game-of-thrones-recap-509-dance-of-dragons



> So what does this all mean for Daeneryss designs on the Iron Throne? Well, if nothing else it shows that dragons, while problematic in times of peace, are a hell of a weapon to have at your disposal when the **** hits the proverbial fan. And now that Dany knows she can (a) telepathically summon Drogon in her time of need and (b) ride him like American Pharaoh right into the sky, she should feel pretty confident about setting Rhaegal and Viserion free and resuming the work of turning them into her own private air force. And with Tyrion at her side explaining what each ruling-family egomaniac wants most in life, there shouldnt be anything stopping her from seizing power from the pathetic Lannister boy king and his mean-girl mom.


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## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

I thought she was summoning him, until I watched the behind the scenes bit.

But I had thought a dragon was coming as soon as they turned around and started to head across the pit. I anticipated that they would be surrounded and that was the only way out (prob, just wishful thinking on my part - haven't seen dragons in a while) 

Of course, I'm still hoping to see Tyrion riding a dragon and heading towards Cersi, screaming "and this is for pinching my P***s, B****h!"


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

ACoolDude said:


> But I had thought a dragon was coming as soon as they turned around and started to head across the pit. I anticipated that they would be surrounded and that was the only way out (prob, just wishful thinking on my part - haven't seen dragons in a while)


Maybe you summoned him. Has anyone ever talked about you having that ability?


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

It didn't ever occur to me that she was summoning him. She seemed just as surprised as anyone that he showed up. I do think that they share some sort of link, however, and he felt/sensed/smelled her fear. If she summoned him by closing her eyes and POOF he shows up instantly then that's more than a communication. That's her somehow warping him through space and time to show up instantly. 

If on the other hand he sensed her panic then he had time to seek her out and arrive just in a nick of time when she closed her eyes preparing to die with her friends.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

jakerock said:


> It didn't ever occur to me that she was summoning him. She seemed just as surprised as anyone that he showed up. I do think that they share some sort of link, however, and he felt/sensed/smelled her fear. If she summoned him by closing her eyes and POOF he shows up instantly then that's more than a communication. That's her somehow warping him through space and time to show up instantly.
> 
> If on the other hand he sensed her panic then he had time to seek her out and arrive just in a nick of time when she closed her eyes preparing to die with her friends.


This was addressed by a behind the scenes video.



Spoiler



She wasn't summoning him. She was making peace with dying. She didn't want to go out scared, she wanted to go out on her own terms. She was as surprised as we were when he showed up.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Did we not learn anything from Toy Story 3? Holding hands and closing your eyes means you have accepted your fate and are prepared to die. Substitute a claw with a dragon and there you go.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Did any non book readers NOT expect the dragon to show up?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Did any non book readers NOT expect the dragon to show up?


I was certain he was going to show up and said as much to the wife at the time. When he did, I called "King of the Show!" just so it was clear I had called it.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

pendragn said:


> This was addressed by a behind the scenes video.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As I said it never occurred to me that she was. I am just surprised how many people it did occur to.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And just because he didn't listen in the past doesn't mean she can't communicate with him.


All prayers are answered by Drogon. It's just that sometimes the answer is No.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

jakerock said:


> IIf she summoned him by closing her eyes and POOF he shows up instantly then that's more than a communication. That's her somehow warping him through space and time to show up instantly.


I have one word for you: Ranyhyn


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

john4200 said:


> I have one word for you: Ranyhyn


Awesome reference :up:


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

jakerock said:


> It didn't ever occur to me that she was summoning him. She seemed just as surprised as anyone that he showed up. I do think that they share some sort of link, however, and he felt/sensed/smelled her fear. If she summoned him by closing her eyes and POOF he shows up instantly then that's more than a communication. That's her somehow warping him through space and time to show up instantly.
> 
> If on the other hand he sensed her panic then he had time to seek her out and arrive just in a nick of time when she closed her eyes preparing to die with her friends.


This. She was very much surprised when she saw him. They do share a link or he wouldn't have known to come but it isn't a conscious one. Now that they have gone off together, they can work on that.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

BeanMeScot said:


> This. She was very much surprised when she saw him. They do share a link or he wouldn't have known to come but it isn't a conscious one. Now that they have gone off together, they can work on that.


Even though it has now been stated that she wasn't summoning him, I still see no reason why it wasn't as plausible that she was trying to summon him and that was lurking near by (we've seen him be close to her recently when she had no idea). It didn't mean she warped him from afar. And she could have still been surprised that he actually came when she summoned him as it would have been completely unexpected.

All I'm saying is the scene was really interpretable either way.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jakerock said:


> As I said it never occurred to me that she was. I am just surprised how many people it did occur to.


I saw it as her preparing to die and I'm equally stunned by those that didn't see it that way


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

dianebrat said:


> I saw it as her preparing to die and I'm equally stunned by those that didn't see it that way


I saw it both ways, both possibilities ran through my head near simultaneously, as well as the possibility that she was actually doing both, preparing to die but as a last ditch trying to summon Drogon.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> I would think so. That's why I've hesitated asking, because I would have thought they would make it obvious, but then again I was wondering if I had missed something. They surely wouldn't want to change actresses....or at least I hope not!
> 
> Him telling her she would not be faceless but could be "something else" is probably what I missed. Thanks!


Maybe they will take the approach that was used in "Dead Like Me" and "Quantum Leap" where we would see Maisie most of the time but an occasional glimpse of the new face such as when looking in a mirror.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> I saw it as her preparing to die and I'm equally stunned by those that didn't see it that way


"Prepared to die" never occurred to me!


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## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> Maybe you summoned him. Has anyone ever talked about you having that ability?


<Concentrate>
....New Dany tub scene...
</Concentrate>

Now if that happens Sunday, It's all good


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## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

You can thank me later


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## dagojr (Jan 9, 2004)

ACoolDude said:


> You can thank me later


Pretty sure she said no more nudity


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## erk48188 (Aug 16, 2002)

tsiehta said:


> awesome reference :up:


+1


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I saw this online and thought it was particularly good.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Ereth said:


> I saw this online and thought it was particularly good.


One of these days, I'll learn not to drink while reading this board.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

^ So perfect!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mr. Soze said:


> ^ So perfect!


Although kinda wrong...the way it's phrased, either fewer (if "three weeks" is taken as a certain number of weeks) or less (if it's taken as a block of time) would work...

(OK, maybe Stannis and I have more in common than I would like...)


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although kinda wrong...the way it's phrased, either fewer (if "three weeks" is taken as a certain number of weeks) or less (if it's taken as a block of time) would work...


From wikipedia:

In addition, "less" is recommended in front of counting nouns that denote distance, amount, or time. For example, "we go on holiday in fewer than four weeks" and "he can run the 100 m in fewer than ten seconds" are not advised.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> From wikipedia:
> 
> In addition, "less" is recommended in front of counting nouns that denote distance, amount, or time. For example, "we go on holiday in fewer than four weeks" and "he can run the 100 m in fewer than ten seconds" are not advised.


Which makes it even wronger (although not totally wrong..."recommended" and "not advised"...by Wikipedia!).

In the original, if she were referring to a specific number of weeks that could be three, or two, or one, then fewer would be appropriate. But I'm sorry, Stannis...in context, it doesn't seem she meant that.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Burn!


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Burn!


Too soon.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> Too soon.


OMG...that was too funny :up:


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> That was 3 novels. The middle is much smaller there. Think Harry Potter (camping with Harry Potter) or Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time.


Uh oh, my wife gave me The Eye of the World for Christmas and I'm reading it now and enjoying it although normally I'm a science fiction versus fantasy reader.

Scott


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> Uh oh, my wife gave me The Eye of the World for Christmas and I'm reading it now and enjoying it although normally I'm a science fiction versus fantasy reader.
> 
> Scott


It starts out really good. The middle is really slow though and someone else finishes it as Jordan died. I hear the ending is good but I haven't read it yet. It's a REALLY, REALLY long series.


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## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> It starts out really good. The middle is really slow though and someone else finishes it as Jordan died. I hear the ending is good but I haven't read it yet. It's a REALLY, REALLY long series.


Read the first 3 and the last 3. The middle is just a bunch of braid tugging and skirt smoothing, with a lot of trudging back and forth interspersed with pages and pages devoted to the descriptions of the leaves of the trees and the material of dresses. I got to the point I would just scan the pages for quotation marks, read the dialogue, then scan the next 4 pages until I got to the next bit of dialogue.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Flop said:


> Read the first 3 and the last 3. The middle is just a bunch of braid tugging and skirt smoothing, with a lot of trudging back and forth interspersed with pages and pages devoted to the descriptions of the leaves of the trees and the material of dresses. I got to the point I would just scan the pages for quotation marks, read the dialogue, then scan the next 4 pages until I got to the next bit of dialogue.


 lol. Best description of WoT I've read.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> lol. Best description of WoT I've read.


Yeah, pretty good summary. From what my coworkers tell me, A Song of Ice and Fire could be reduced by at least one novel if you just took out the descriptions of food in it. I suggested that maybe GRRM can only convince himself to write a chapter if he vows not to eat until it is finished. Wonder if Jordan had something similar with looking out his window at trees.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> Yeah, pretty good summary. From what my coworkers tell me, A Song of Ice and Fire could be reduced by at least one novel if you just took out the descriptions of food in it.


If you haven't seen in, this blog attempts to make every meal mentioned in the books:

http://www.innatthecrossroads.com/

Myself, I've been tempted to put together a web page that makes random GRRM-like meal descriptions.

e.g. "The tournament guests gorged upon mountains of roasted capon, salted squash with neeps, cold plum, and great round wheels of cheese, licking their fingers after every delicious bite"


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I was so happy when Sanderson took over the WoT franchise. He excised stupid plot lines and characters efficiently while maintaining the overall narrative. I am continually impressed with him. He manages to put out 2-3 books a year in multiple mythologies that he created. I recently finished the Steelheart books and while they are advertised as YA, I thought they were excellent adult books.

The Stormlight archive is just plain awesome. I encourage any fantasy enthusiasts to read it.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

I like the Stormlight archive but just cannot get into Mistborn. I've abandoned the first book a quarter of the way through about 3 times.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> I like the Stormlight archive but just cannot get into Mistborn. I've abandoned the first book a quarter of the way through about 3 times.


I'm the opposite. I adored Mistborn, totally sucked in from the very beginning, and gave up on Stormlight.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

I almost added "cue Ereth to state the opposite" when I posted. I know we've had this conversation before.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

LOL! I did NOT remember that. Too funny.


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## ozzman73 (Nov 27, 2006)

kaszeta said:


> If you haven't seen in, this blog attempts to make every meal mentioned in the books:
> 
> http://www.innatthecrossroads.com/
> 
> ...


Thank you for the site


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Ereth said:


> I'm the opposite. I adored Mistborn, totally sucked in from the very beginning, and gave up on Stormlight.


Can you say why you didn't like it or was it just an overall feeling?


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Can you say why you didn't like it or was it just an overall feeling?


I downloaded the sample of the first book and couldn't get through it. It seemed more like flowery historical romance and was just a wall of text that I couldn't make any sense of (ironic, coming from me, eh?)

I have no concept of the story or characters at all. All I remember is that the verbiage was off-putting. It was the style of writing that hit me, not the story itself. I don't like when I become aware of the writing, rather than the story.

I'm actually planning to give it a try again. I'm hoping, since there are so many positive things said about it, that either I hit it on a bad day, or perhaps the opening (that I barely remember now) wasn't indicative of the whole.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Ereth, I would have expected you of all people to give a review only after you've read it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Ereth, I would have expected you of all people to give a review only after you've read it.


To be fair, he didn't review it. He just said he gave up on it...


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Well ereth, if you get time, read it through. I think you'd like it.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> To be fair, he didn't review it. He just said he gave up on it...


This. I was contrasting how quickly I was sucked into Mistborn, while being so frustrated with Stormlight that I didn't even attempt to finish.

Which is exactly the opposite of JETarpon, who gave up on Mistborn.

I have really enjoyed everything of Sanderson's I've read, except for "The Way of Kings". I find that particularly interesting, from a reader standpoint.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I kinda wish there was an icon that would show me that a thread has been significantly derailed.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Holy ****!!!

Just finished this episode.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I kinda wish there was an icon that would show me that a thread has been significantly derailed.


Wouldn't it be more efficient to have an icon that shows a thread hasn't been? It would be used a lot less often.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I kinda wish there was an icon that would show me that a thread has been significantly derailed.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I assumed we were just trying to keep it going until next spring. It really makes my day to see a new post on a GoT thread. :up:


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I assumed we were just trying to keep it going until next spring. It really makes my day to see a new post on a GoT thread. :up:


Shouldn't the effort be focused on the S5E10 episode thread?


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