# Resolution of files pulled off TiVo



## HDClown (Nov 2, 2003)

I have pulled a bunch of SD content off my TiVo HD using TiVo Desktop. The programs were recorded in best quality mode.

Resolution of the files shows as 480x480, is this accurate, or is this accurate? 

I've ran these files through VideoReDo and am watching them on a 37" LCD (non 1080p) using an XBox with XBMC and the quality seems worse then when I watch these shows directly on my TiVo off the TiVo.

I say seems, because I haven't done any critical analysis. Are my eyes just playing tricks on more, or is something else going on?


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

something is set incorrectly. You should be getting files from your TivoHD in thier original resolution via TivoDesktop.


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## HDClown (Nov 2, 2003)

I'm not sure what could be set wrong. There's no options in TiVo Desktop to mess with resolution.

Remember, there are SD broadcasts I was pulling off, not HD.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

jcthorne said:


> something is set incorrectly. You should be getting files from your TivoHD in thier original resolution via TivoDesktop.


480x480 is an original resolution for best quality

on an S2 you could get 520x480 if you used s-video connect to a dish receiver.

Non-DVD S2 Tivos (I believe these values are different with S3 & TiVoHD):
Best: 480x480, 5800 kbps
High: 480x480, 3500kbps
Medium: 352x480, 2600 kbps
Basic: 352x480, 1447 kbps

DVD Tivos:
720x480 for Best and High, 
352x480 for Medium and Basic

I will try playing one on my XBMC and see what you mean. I assume you are using VR to save as .mpg, since XBMC won't play a .tivo file.

What build of XBMC are you using so we can compare apples to apples?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Transferred a Seinfeld episode from my S3 to PC to XBMC. I can't tell the difference picture quality wise. This was a digital SD recording. Watching on 30" CRT HDTV. 

There are motion artifacts now that I watch closer. The S3 is "softer".

On XBMC I can see horizontal lines at times during movement. Like looking at the picture through a screen door.


File Name: C:\Documents and Settings\Greg\My Documents\My TiVo Recordings\Seinfeld - ''The Soul Mate'' (Recorded Dec 4, 2007, WBOCDT2).mpg
File Size: 1216935936 ( 1.13 GB )
Program Duration: 00:28:28.07
File Type: PS - MPEG2
Encoding: MPEG 2
Video stream Id: xE0
Encoding Dimensions: 704 x 480
Display Size: 704 x 480
Aspect Ratio: 4/3
Frame Rate: 29.97 FPS
Bit Rate: 3.505 Mbps
VBV_Buffer: 224 KB
Profile: Main/Main
Progressive: Prog or Int
Chroma: 4:2:0
Audio Format: 2.0
Audio Stream Id: AC3: 0 (x80)
Audio Bit Rate: 192 Kbps
Audio Sampling Rate: 48000 Hz


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Greg - Odd resolution. Was this recorded from an analog channel? 704x480 is technically a DVD legal resolution but AFAIK is rarely used for broadcast purposes.

HDClow - The reason the analog resolution is only 480x480 is because that's the resolution most analog broadcasts in America are transmitted at. TiVo allows 520x480 when connected to a DSS receiver because the S-Video cable allows it and on occasion DirecTV will transmit PPV and some pay channels at that resolution. That being said I just transfered a best quality recording from my S3 to my PC and it was 720x480, so TiVo may only use the 480x480 resolution for High on the S3/TiVoHD units. (I record everything at best, or in HD, so I don't have anything to test with)

Dan


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Greg - Odd resolution. Was this recorded from an analog channel? 704x480 is technically a DVD legal resolution but AFAIK is rarely used for broadcast purposes.


This was an OTA digital SD channel. Not analog, but not HD either.

IIRC, *every* channel I used to pull off my E* receiver via S-video was 520x480. (Edit: when recorded at Best).


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

The THD resolutions are the same as the S2, and the bit rates are the same too: 352,352,480,480 all x480 basic to best.

The S3 is 352,480,720,720 x480. Much higher bit rates at medium and above. Medium is ~3.5mbps;high ~6mbps; best is well over 7mbps


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

greg_burns said:


> IIRC, *every* channel I used to pull off my E* receiver via S-video was 520x480. (Edit: when recorded at Best).


Yeah, TiVo has no way of detecting the original signal quality so they basically set it up so that if your source was DSS and your connection was S-Video then Best was 520x480. If it was any other combination of source or connection it was 480x480. The only exception was if you have the "Video Smoothing" option enabled, in which case every quality was 352x480.

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HDTiVo said:


> The THD resolutions are the same as the S2, and the bit rates are the same too: 352,352,480,480 all x480 basic to best.
> 
> The S3 is 352,480,720,720 x480. Much higher bit rates at medium and above. Medium is ~3.5mbps;high ~6mbps; best is well over 7mbps


That's good to know. And another good reason why if I buy another HD TiVo it's going to be a S3 and not a THD.

Dan


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## HDClown (Nov 2, 2003)

I did use VRD to save to .MPG to play on XMBC. XBMC sees it at the same 480x480 resolution. I'm watching on a 2 year old 37" Vizio LCD which is a 1366x768 panel.

I am on Bright House Networks cable and the particular recordings I have been viewing like this were on USA, which isn't the greatest quality of broadcast in the first place. My TiVoHD is also connected to a current generation 32" Vizio LCD which is a higher quality panel then my 37" set which I run XBMC on. THD and my XBox are connected with component on each set. The difference in the 2 TV's themselves, plus the extra size is likely why I'm noticing a difference.

When the video first starts on XBMC, it's only in a small section in the middle of the screen. I've found that changing the video scaling to 14:9 mode (of all the available modes) gives me the most screen real estate in-use without stretching the picture improperly.

I am running XBMC T3CH SVN build 2007-10-18 rev 10638, which is a little over a month old now.

I haven't done any tests yet with HD recordings, but I'll do that next. I pulled an episode of Bionic Woman and VRD showed that as 1920x1080 resolution if I recall correctly.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The XBox should be smart enough to recognize the MPEG file'ss aspect ratio and stretch the picture properly without forcing you to use some obscure aspect setting to make it work. If it's not then it's a bug.

As for the rest of the picture quality issues you're seeing. You may want to make sure that your television's color settings are set correctly for the input the XBox is connected to. A lot of new TVs have discrete color settings for each input, so they could be set completely different for your TiVo and your XBox. 

Dan


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

HDClown said:


> I haven't done any tests yet with HD recordings, but I'll do that next. I pulled an episode of Bionic Woman and VRD showed that as 1920x1080 resolution if I recall correctly.


I didn't think an Xbox 1 had the horse power to play a true HD video. This one I tried (a clip of Heroes) wouldn't play at all.

File Type: PS - MPEG2
Encoding: MPEG 2
Video stream Id: xE0
Encoding Dimensions: 1920 x 1080
Display Size: 1920 x 1080
Aspect Ratio: 16/9
Frame Rate: 29.97 FPS
Bit Rate: 38.810 Mbps
VBV_Buffer: 1194 KB
Profile: Main/High
Progressive: Prog or Int
Chroma: 4:2:0
Audio Format: 5.1
Audio Stream Id: AC3: 0 (x80)
Audio Bit Rate: 384 Kbps
Audio Sampling Rate: 48000 Hz

I need to update my XBMC, I haven't done so since Nov 06!


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## HDClown (Nov 2, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> The XBox should be smart enough to recognize the MPEG file'ss aspect ratio and stretch the picture properly without forcing you to use some obscure aspect setting to make it work. If it's not then it's a bug.
> 
> As for the rest of the picture quality issues you're seeing. You may want to make sure that your television's color settings are set correctly for the input the XBox is connected to. A lot of new TVs have discrete color settings for each input, so they could be set completely different for your TiVo and your XBox.
> 
> Dan


I've pllayed XviD/DivX on XBMC and it does adjust to the proper aspect ratio, so I'm not sure why the MPEG files doesn't. It works in ANY aspect ratio, it just depends on how the screen is filled. XBMC has a ton of them, normal, wide, zoom, stretch, 4:3, 14:9, 16:9, and custom (I think I got them all). For SD TiVo files, 14:9 fills a tad more screen then 16:9 and it doesn't actually distort people like a stretch mode would. Zoom actually fills the entire screen, but I haven't determined yet if it's cutting off any of the top and bottom.

I disconnected my DVD player and used that input for the XBox. I guess I'll throw in my AVIA guide to home theater and do the video tests again.



greg_burns said:


> I didn't think an Xbox 1 had the horse power to play a true HD video. This one I tried (a clip of Heroes) wouldn't play at all.


Good possibility it won't. Only 700mhz processor. I know it chokes up after 3-4 seconds of playing a 720p H.264 video, even thought he specs say it can play H.264. Probably needs to be lower rest H.264. I'll give it a shot and see what happens. The newer versions can't really make up for a lack of horsepower.

I have played some 720p XviD/DivX recordings of TV Shows without a problem.

With the new dashboard update on the XBox360 and all the extra file format support that MS has added, I may have to pick up one of those someday. It's still way cheaper then having to build a mini and quiet HTPC. I'll just loose all the other cool stuff XBMC can do, but to be honest, I don't use any of those extra features.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

HDClown said:


> With the new dashboard update on the XBox360 and all the extra file format support that MS has added, I may have to pick up one of those someday. It's still way cheaper then having to build a mini and quiet HTPC. I'll just loose all the other cool stuff XBMC can do, but to be honest, I don't use any of those extra features.


My 360 died (for the second time!) the other night. Got the 3 red rings of light. If it didn't have the 3 year warranty, I would be very hesitant to spend the money again. There is a real problem there with something.

I was able to play HD video from my S3 streamed from Vista. (Surprised me).

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=374315

Once I get it back from MS, I need to see what the new update actually lets me do.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

HDClown said:


> When the video first starts on XBMC, it's only in a small section in the middle of the screen.


In which mode? Is it 4x3 or 1x1? Does it use 480/768 of your screen vertically?


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## HDClown (Nov 2, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> In which mode? Is it 4x3 or 1x1? Does it use 480/768 of your screen vertically?


Default mode is "Normal'", which I guess is 1:1, because it's only taking up 480x480 of the 1366x768 resolution of the panel.

But, if I play an XviD which has a reolution less then 1366x768, XBMC will scale the video on the screen in the same "Normal" mode. It must have something to do with the file format being played and how XBMC interprets it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The difference is that .mpg files contain a flag which tell the video play what the aspect ratio of the video should be. (i.e. 1:1, 4:3, 16:9 or 2.21:1) The MPEG2 decoder should be smart enough to pick up on that flag and stretch the picture accordingly. AVI files do not have such a flag, so they are always treated as 1:1 and need all those special stretch modes to compensate for the different modes.

Dan


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## Das Achteck (Mar 9, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> That's good to know. And another good reason why if I buy another HD TiVo it's going to be a S3 and not a THD.
> 
> Dan


But won't that be moot when analog rides off into the sunset?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Cable is not required to abide by the analog deadline. In fact they may use the fact that they still offer analog stations as a selling point to people who previously used only an OTA antenna.

Dan


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## Das Achteck (Mar 9, 2005)

Perhaps, but I still submit that the importance of any advantage that the S3 might have today with regard to analog resolution will diminish going forward.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That could be true but, other then price, what advantage does the TiVoHD have going for it?

Dan


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> That could be true but, other then price, what advantage does the TiVoHD have going for it?
> 
> Dan


Its good looks.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

LOL 

One thing that could possibly make the TiVoHD better, maybe someday down the road, is the internal transcoding chip. However TiVo could just as easily never use that chip, so who knows if it'll be an advantage or not.

Dan


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> LOL
> 
> One thing that could possibly make the TiVoHD better, maybe someday down the road, is the internal transcoding chip. However TiVo could just as easily never use that chip, so who knows if it'll be an advantage or not.
> 
> Dan


Also, there is a good chance there is no transcoding capability to that chip at all. Not every model in that family has transcoding, and TiVo uses a unique model that we don't know the specs of, but TiVo was looking to minimize cost of the hardware...

Plus there was that comment from TiVoPony of 'hey, this is a CE product, so no transcoding...' when someone asked about transcoding (not specifically related to this chip though.)

So several good reasons to doubt there is transcoding hardware.


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## Das Achteck (Mar 9, 2005)

Wasn't there some speculation that the chip might handle MPG4 if the cablecos started to use it?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Both the TiVo HD and the S3 units contain a decoder chip capable of playing MPEG4 encoded content. The TiVo HD unit just has another chip which is speculated to be capable of transcoding HD to SD and/or MPEG2 to MPEG4. However at the moment neither feature is actually available, so no one knows if, or how well, they actually work.

Dan


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## OldQuercus (Dec 31, 2007)

greg_burns said:


> 480x480 is an original resolution for best quality
> 
> on an S2 you could get 520x480 if you used s-video connect to a dish receiver.
> 
> ...


When I view .tivo files recoreded on a SD Series 2 (no DVD) recoreded from cable using MediaPlayer 11, it shows the video on the screen as a properly proportioned 4/3 image, and MP properties tells me the resolution of the tivo file is 720 x 480. When I view the exact same .tivo file in VideoReDo, it also shows as properly proportioned 4/3 image, but VRD tells me the resolution is only 480 x 480.

When I use MediaPlayer 11 to re-encode and transfer the file to my Zen Vision M, it shows well on the vision M (i.e. 4/3 properly proportioned 320x240rectangle). When I use VideoReDo to process the file to mpeg, and then transfer the mpeg to my Zen, it shows as a 240x240 square that is distorted, i.e. horizontally compressed.

Why does MP and VRD handle the same file differently? What is the "correct" resolution of the tivo file? How can I get VRD to maintain the full resolution of the video and maintain the 4/3 aspect ratio?

Thanks.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

OldQuercus said:


> When I view the exact same .tivo file in VideoReDo, it also shows as properly proportioned 4/3 image, but VRD tells me the resolution is only 480 x 480.


Keep in mind that mpeg-2 supports non square pixels. IOW, 480x480 can be dispalyed with a 4:3 aspect ratio.

Can't really help you with the rest.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

OldQuercus said:


> What is the "correct" resolution of the tivo file? How can I get VRD to maintain the full resolution of the video and maintain the 4/3 aspect ratio?
> 
> Thanks.


Obviously the resolution is 480x480. You are getting a 1:1 aspect ratio on your VRD output. Does it play that way on other devices or computer software video players?

Try this: When you Save As, click the Options button in the Save As dialog box and make sure the Aspect Ratio drop down box has No Change set. If that doesn't work, try specifically setting the Aspect Ratio to 4:3.

See if that works.


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