# Big Lots - Tivo DT $69.99



## kschauwe (Sep 17, 2003)

In this weekend flyer. "While Quantities Last". Must be some refurb units.


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## roadrunner9368 (Mar 6, 2006)

They don't show it on the flyer in my area.


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## kschauwe (Sep 17, 2003)




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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

from the ad


> compare to $249 before rebate SAVE 72%


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## magnumis (Jan 6, 2005)

Will this qualify the the current Tivo rebates?


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## JPA2825 (May 15, 2000)

Understand that these are possibly refurb and definitely old model, but does TiVo really benefit from having its "brand" in a Big Lots circular?


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## ragnrok23 (Sep 18, 2007)

JPA2825 said:


> Understand that these are possibly refurb and definitely old model, but does TiVo really benefit from having its "brand" in a Big Lots circular?


I picked one up on Sunday. They were new in box, and the model # matched the rebate, so we'll see


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

JPA2825 said:


> Understand that these are possibly refurb and definitely old model, but does TiVo really benefit from having its "brand" in a Big Lots circular?


Big Lots carry a lot of bigger brands. They just seem to get big left-over shipments from various places.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

So, does it really mean they will update the S2DT???


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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

JPA2825 said:


> Understand that these are possibly refurb and definitely old model, but does TiVo really benefit from having its "brand" in a Big Lots circular?


If by "old model" you mean current model, then yes, that's exactly what they are. And I really really doubt that a discount store like Big Lots is going to sell refurb'd Tivos at full new retail price.


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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> So, does it really mean they will update the S2DT???


Who even said it was a possibility?


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## shadowplay (Mar 12, 2003)

They are free with these offers from Tivo...

http://dynamic.tivo.com/0.11.LP_kz.asp?a=ywca

http://dynamic.tivo.com/0.11.LP_kz.asp?a=ptc

http://dynamic.tivo.com/0.11.LP_k...=kidsfirst


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

shadowplay said:


> They are free with these offers from Tivo...
> 
> http://dynamic.tivo.com/0.11.LP_kz.asp?a=ywca
> 
> ...


Last one does not work, but looks like it is eligible for MSD pricing as well. Very very tempting....


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

I picked up one of these yesterday. I have an older Series 2 and I wanted to replace it with a dual tuner so this deal worked out well for us. 

Everything on the unit looked new, it didn't appear to be a refurb. Is there any way to know for certain?


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## ragnrok23 (Sep 18, 2007)

irandsert said:


> I picked up one of these yesterday. I have an older Series 2 and I wanted to replace it with a dual tuner so this deal worked out well for us.
> 
> Everything on the unit looked new, it didn't appear to be a refurb. Is there any way to know for certain?


Refurbed items at Big Lots have a sticker on them identifying them as refurbished


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

ragnrok23 said:


> Refurbed items at Big Lots have a sticker on them identifying them as refurbished


I looked everywhere: Serial Number, Box, UPC sticker...etc. I didn't see anything that made me believe this box is a refurb. Pretty good deal for people who simply want to upgrade their box.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

irandsert said:


> I looked everywhere: Serial Number, Box, UPC sticker...etc. I didn't see anything that made me believe this box is a refurb. Pretty good deal for people who simply want to upgrade their box.


There's no reason to believe it is a refurbished unit.

It would be a good deal... if I could transfer the Lifetime sub from my existing S2.


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## StrynBean (Aug 5, 2004)

Ok, so I logged onto my Tivo account and I noticed that the Tivo I bought last year (during the Tivo Tasting Party) with a one year subscription was up yesterday.

Is it possible for me to buy a new Tivo (the one that is free with a subscription plan is what I am looking at) and drop the one with the expired contract down to the multi Tivo plan price?


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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

StrynBean said:


> Ok, so I logged onto my Tivo account and I noticed that the Tivo I bought last year (during the Tivo Tasting Party) with a one year subscription was up yesterday.
> 
> Is it possible for me to buy a new Tivo (the one that is free with a subscription plan is what I am looking at) and drop the one with the expired contract down to the multi Tivo plan price?


MSD is now only available for new subscriptions. The only way to get an MSD rate on your current Tivo (after adding another) would be to cancel the subscription and then re-subscribe and commit to 1, 2 or 3 years.

However, the new Tivo would be eligible for MSD right out of the gate because you have an existing Tivo being charged the full rate.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

It wasn't clear to me from the flyer, but the $69.99 price is the out-the-door price, and the rebate would take it below free. There are about a dozen at the local BL. Very tempting. Need to work a bit on the WAF first.


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

The one I bought was $69.99 + tax. (not after rebate) This box should qualify for the rebate for new customers.

My father and I both got one, we are both upgrading our old S2-240. Another friend got one to add another box in his house.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

To be very clear...these boxes thru Big Lots do NOT qualify for rebates.

Pony


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Interesting.

Which of the published terms applies to make Big Lots units not rebate-eligible?

The no-rebate Big Lots price is still $15 below the after-rebate Amazon price so that ain't half bad - a bird in the hand and all...


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> To be very clear...these boxes thru Big Lots do NOT qualify for rebates.
> 
> Pony


Please explain, how can these boxes be excluded from the rebate given the terms and conditions on the rebate form? Unless BL is not an authorized tivo reseller, (which would be odd since Tivo gave them the boxes) then according to the form the rebate should apply?

I can understand just giving back just the base $69 price instead of the full $150.


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## ragnrok23 (Sep 18, 2007)

irandsert said:


> Please explain, how can these boxes be excluded from the rebate given the terms and conditions on the rebate form? Unless BL is not an authorized tivo reseller, (which would be odd since Tivo gave them the boxes) then according to the form the rebate should apply?
> 
> I can understand just giving back just the base $69 price instead of the full $150.


I agree. I bought my first Tivo on Sunday from BL thinking that it would be eligible for the rebate, and therefore would also pay for my wireless adaptor. I probably would have even just bought one directly from Tivo had the marketing for the free one been better (or at least available before the BL was to stock them) So you're now telling me I am out $140 ($70 for the Tivo and $60 for the adaptor+ tax)


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

The biggest problem I have is that the only way we know that the rebate is not valid is the fact that the tivo marketing rep did a drive by on this forum to let us know. 

The rebate form specifically tells us what boxes are not valid, if they decided to give BL tivo boxes then they should have stamped "NOT ELIGIBLE FOR REBATE" on them. Or better yet, given them a model number that was not eligible.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

I don't see how they can legally exclude these from the rebate since they're new units sold at a retailer.
They can claim Big Lots isn't an authorized retailer, but I tried to find a list of authorized TiVo retailers and couldn't.
My guess is that, if your rebate is denied, filing a complaint with the FTC and/or your State AG will get it paid, but I know from personal experience that that can take a long time.
Be prepared for a fight.


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## usnret (Nov 25, 2003)

Perhaps a better explanation from TivoPony as to why they are NOT rebatable is in order.


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## everyone006 (Oct 4, 2007)

The biggest problem I have is that the only way we know that the rebate is not valid is the fact that the tivo marketing rep did a drive by on this forum to let us know. 

The rebate form specifically tells us what boxes are not valid, if they decided to give BL tivo boxes then they should have stamped "NOT ELIGIBLE FOR REBATE" on them. Or better yet, given them a model number that was not eligible.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

ragnrok23 said:


> So you're now telling me I am out $140 ($70 for the Tivo and $60 for the adaptor+ tax)


No, you now have a TiVo and a wireless adapter.


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## ragnrok23 (Sep 18, 2007)

pdhenry said:


> No, you now have a TiVo and a wireless adapter.


true 

But I would have gotten the Tivo for free, plus ordered the adapter on-line for less $$$ (wife was too impatient to let me order one on-line and wait for it to come, we don't have a phone line anywere in reach)


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

usnret said:


> Perhaps a better explanation from TivoPony as to why they are NOT rebatable is in order.


Yes, that would certainly be helpful. Looking at the terms of the rebate I don't see why they should be excluded from it (it seems a bit odd to say Big Lots isn't an authorized retailer, when they most certainly is a legitimate business, selling new TiVos).


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

MickeS said:


> Yes, that would certainly be helpful. Looking at the terms of the rebate I don't see why they should be excluded from it (it seems a bit odd to say Big Lots isn't an authorized retailer, when they most certainly is a legitimate business, selling new TiVos).


I could understand them only giving you $69.99 instead of $150, but to say "no" w/o reason is very odd.

It is almost like Tivo forgot about the rebate when they signed up with BL. One dept struck a deal with BL and several weeks later someone said "oh, what about the rebate." This is simply speculation.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

irandsert said:


> I could understand them only giving you $69.99 instead of $150, but to say "no" w/o reason is very odd.
> 
> It is almost like Tivo forgot about the rebate when they signed up with BL. One dept struck a deal with BL and several weeks later someone said "oh, what about the rebate." This is simply speculation.


It could be that BL didn't get the shipment from TiVo at all, but from second hand from another retailer. I don't really think that should matter to the consumer though.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

irandsert said:


> The biggest problem I have is that the only way we know that the rebate is not valid is the fact that the tivo marketing rep did a drive by on this forum to let us know.
> 
> The rebate form specifically tells us what boxes are not valid, if they decided to give BL tivo boxes then they should have stamped "NOT ELIGIBLE FOR REBATE" on them. Or better yet, given them a model number that was not eligible.





everyone006 said:


> The biggest problem I have is that the only way we know that the rebate is not valid is the fact that the tivo marketing rep did a drive by on this forum to let us know.
> 
> The rebate form specifically tells us what boxes are not valid, if they decided to give BL tivo boxes then they should have stamped "NOT ELIGIBLE FOR REBATE" on them. Or better yet, given them a model number that was not eligible.


Hey, looks like there's an echo in here. 

actually it looks like all of everyone006's posts are dups of earlier posts in whatever thread they appear in.


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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

MickeS said:


> It could be that BL didn't get the shipment from TiVo at all, but from second hand from another retailer. I don't really think that should matter to the consumer though.


You're right. It shouldn't and doesn't matter to the consumer. TiVo, however is not the consumer and it matters to them.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Jonathan_S said:


> actually it looks like all of everyone006's posts are dups of earlier posts in whatever thread they appear in.


And now he's up to the magic 5 posts...


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

Jonathan_S said:


> Hey, looks like there's an echo in here.
> 
> actually it looks like all of everyone006's posts are dups of earlier posts in whatever thread they appear in.


Needed to be said twice anyways.


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## bryus (Mar 15, 2004)

So, TiVo should pay us to take boxes off their hands?

I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. How can you get upset at TiVo for NOT giving you free equipment? 

If you don't want it don't buy it. 
If you can't afford it, don't buy it.

What is it with people thinking it's OK to take advantage of a company beyond what's reasonable to expect?

I paid $99 for my new Series 2 direct from TiVo last month and I am happier than I ever was with my DirecTiVo box. I don't feel ripped off because I had to pay for it. I have considered getting the box from BigLots! but didn't.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

bryus said:


> So, TiVo should pay us to take boxes off their hands?
> 
> I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. How can you get upset at TiVo for NOT giving you free equipment?
> 
> ...


I paid a little over $600 (including lifetime service) for my first S2 and I don't feel ripped off either.
That being said, TiVo can't decide to invalidate rebates because one of their retailers decided to sell boxes more cheaply than they anticipated.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bryus said:


> What is it with people thinking it's OK to take advantage of a company beyond what's reasonable to expect?


What's reasonable to expect is that the company stands by their rebate offers.


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## oo7plyr (Jul 11, 2007)

Anyone else want to get in this lawsuit?


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

bryus said:


> So, TiVo should pay us to take boxes off their hands?
> 
> I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. How can you get upset at TiVo for NOT giving you free equipment?


they are still going to get the monthly service fees though.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Crrink said:


> I paid a little over $600 (including lifetime service) for my first S2 and I don't feel ripped off either.
> That being said, TiVo can't decide to invalidate rebates because one of their retailers decided to sell boxes more cheaply than they anticipated.


In fact, there is precedent for at-a-loss retail sales of TiVo boxes.

In early 2005, a number of Sams Club stores were selling single tuner S2s for around $50, eligible for ~$100 rebate.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

oo7plyr said:


> Anyone else want to get in this lawsuit?


No lawsuit necessary, unless TiVo has a more creative way to wiggle out of this than I've thought of so far I place the odds at:
70% - complaining to the rebate company and/or TiVo personnel here on the board will result in a paid rebate
20% - escalating your complaints to the FTC and/or your State AG (both trivially easy to do online) will result in a paid rebate
10% - TiVo has a legal, reasonable reason for denying these rebates.

Due to issues like this, some rebate issuers have been including a clause that the rebate amount cannot exceed the price paid on the receipt. While I think this is a reasonable clause, TiVo's rebate folks didn't think to include it. I expect they will in the future.
In the meantime, anyone hoping to give this a try should print/download the TiVo rebate now - they could change the verbiage at any time.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Or they can just invalidate the TSNs of units sold through Big Lots for the rebate.

I'm getting an error message when I try to pre-qualify mine:


> No rewards were found for the information submitted. Please click here to contact customer service.


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## lutton (Mar 10, 2004)

Interesting that no further comment from Pony on this matter has been made in a day and a half...

Seems to be one of those cases where the more they say, the more tangled the story could get.

But, a flat 'No' with no explaination and no basis?


While I certainly don't expect TiVo to provide me with free hardware, I do expect a company to honor its commitments and promotions.


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

pdhenry said:


> In fact, there is precedent for at-a-loss retail sales of TiVo boxes.
> 
> In early 2005, a number of Sams Club stores were selling single tuner S2s for around $50, eligible for ~$100 rebate.


At one point in time the rebate form even stated that the rebate was not applicable to boxes purchased at Sam's Club, Costco, or other wholesale clubs. If the rebate doesn't apply to BL boxes than it should be stated on the form, at the store, or on the box.


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## brnscofrnld (Mar 30, 2005)

mick66 said:


> MSD is now only available for new subscriptions. The only way to get an MSD rate on your current Tivo (after adding another) would be to cancel the subscription and then re-subscribe and commit to 1, 2 or 3 years.
> 
> However, the new Tivo would be eligible for MSD right out of the gate because you have an existing Tivo being charged the full rate.


SO, if i have two Tivos already, I can replace an old one and keep the MSD rate without having to re-subscribe with one of these?

just go to Change Tivo Service number and enter the new service number, right?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

pdhenry said:


> Or they can just invalidate the TSNs of units sold through Big Lots for the rebate.
> 
> I'm getting an error message when I try to pre-qualify mine:


I got an error message like that when I tried to pre-qualify my S3 bought from amazon.com, but the rebate went through anyway.


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

brnscofrnld said:


> SO, if i have two Tivos already, I can replace an old one and keep the MSD rate without having to re-subscribe with one of these?
> 
> just go to Change Tivo Service number and enter the new service number, right?


Yes, I did this a short time ago through the website. You are basically swapping the box that you have associated with your agreement: whether it is monthly, 3 yr, etc.

If you add an additional box (beyond the amount you currently have) you will get MSD but have to agree to a 3yr agreement to get 6.95 price.


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## brnscofrnld (Mar 30, 2005)

hmmm, i might have to make a run or call to Big Lots to see if they have any more in stock. I've been looking into a DT but don't really want an HD right now.


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## lutton (Mar 10, 2004)

woot sells off a TiVo unit with rebate generating a $35 profit to purchaser:

http://www.woot.com/Forums/ViewPost.aspx?PostID=1593554

TiVo Series 2 80 Hour Digital Video Recorder with $170 Rebate
$129.99 + $5 Shipping
Condition: New

Product List:
- 1 TiVo R54080 Series2 80 Hour Digital Video Recorder
- 1 $170 Tivo Rebate with One year Service Contract


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

lutton said:


> woot sells off a TiVo unit with rebate generating a $35 profit to purchaser:
> 
> http://www.woot.com/Forums/ViewPost.aspx?PostID=1593554
> 
> ...


Would TiVo exclude that one too? I don't see what's different here.


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## Tdawg (Jan 11, 2006)

I plan to fight this if denied my rebate!


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## raianoat (Jan 27, 2004)

Where is the list of authorized resellers? Is BestBuy an authorized reseller? I would guess yes but, how can you be sure....


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## brnscofrnld (Mar 30, 2005)

Well, I'm in for one. I have an older 240 series that I want to upgrade to a Dual tuner and this looks like the right price to do it with.

Now i have to transfer off all the shows that I want to keep to the computer or the other Tivo. 

I wonder how long that will take...


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## maggard (Jan 9, 2003)

Tivo, meet the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Office of Consumer Affairs and Business Regulation.

Theyre the ones charged with seeing were not subject to deceptive advertising and/or practices, and if theres a problem with rebates theyll be the ones following up on my and any other residents behalf.

Folks in other states, you likely have similar offices full of folks on your public payroll, put them to use if you have a problem.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

brnscofrnld said:


> Well, I'm in for one. I have an older 240 series that I want to upgrade to a Dual tuner and this looks like the right price to do it with.
> 
> Now i have to transfer off all the shows that I want to keep to the computer or the other Tivo.
> 
> I wonder how long that will take...


I did that and it took a long time, but involved very little work. I just left it to chug along for a couple of days.


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## eluckie (Sep 20, 2005)

I agree with the use of an your Attorney General's office if you feel that you are being treated wrong. A few years ago I had an issue with Gateway over a product I had purchased from them. They said their policy said one thing and I read it to say something else. They refused to budge and denied all of my requests of them repeatedly. After exhausting all avenues within Gateway I told them I was going to file a complaint with the Consumer Affairs division of the AG's Office and they showed no concern. However, about two weeks after that complaint was filed I was recieving personal phone calls from the Administrative Offices of Gateway asking how they correct the situation. They had been contacted by the AG's office and they were more than willing to do everything I had asked of them previously plus some! It was amazing!!!

Now, that being said I guess each person will have to follow their own conscious over whether or not they should rightfully receive a rebate that far exceeds what the purchase price of the product was when that may not have been the intent of the manufacturer. However, if Tivo left themselves open to this because of poorly worded rebate rules then I cant say I would not do it. We actually purchased one of these from Big Lots but we are replacing our oldest S2 with the newer DT and keeping It on our MSD plan, so we will not qualify for the rebate. However, I have suggested to a couple of others who purchased them as their first Tivo to try the rebate.


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## brnscofrnld (Mar 30, 2005)

MickeS said:


> I did that and it took a long time, but involved very little work. I just left it to chug along for a couple of days.


Luckily I only have a few shows left on that Tivo that I wanted to save. I was just out on a business trip and had some time to sling the shows to my laptop and clean it up a bit.

As for the S2DT from BT, as far as i can tell by looking at the package it is not a refurb.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I seriously can't believe some of you people. You buy a $70 TiVo and you expect to get $150 back. Then when you find out you can't, you cry and moan and threaten lawsuits. Un-freaking believeable. Like you've somehow been "damaged" or you're entitled to a free lunch. You haven't, and you're not.

If you can't afford $70, don't spend it. Take the stupid thing back to the store. Or better yet, spend tens of times over the "cost" of the "rebate" you didn't get and call a lawyer. Brilliant.

Have you ever stopped to consider that places like Big Lots don't get their merchandise directly from manufacturers? They don't. They could have bought a lot of products from Billy Bob's TV shack. Big Lots wouldn't be considered an authorized reseller anyway - that should be common sense.

But yeah, go ahead and call your lawyers because you didn't get double back what you paid for the product.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

It would be simple for Pony to come back and say as a closeout merchant, Big Lots isn't an authorized retailer and therefore the rebate doesn't apply. But he hasn't. It's not asking too much for his statement to be supported. Just because it's "too good to be true" doesn't mean that the stated rebate terms don't apply.

As I've said before, it's not the first time the rebate on a product would exceed the purchase price - it's not even the first time the rebate for a *TiVo* exceeds the purchase price.

Losing the rebate wouldn't wreck my world - before the rebate it's about the same as other retailers' after-rebate price. There should be a valid reason for TiVo not to honor the rebate on these units, though. So far none has been given.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

TiVotion said:


> I seriously can't believe some of you people. You buy a $70 TiVo and you expect to get $150 back. Then when you find out you can't, you cry and moan and threaten lawsuits. Un-freaking believeable. Like you've somehow been "damaged" or you're entitled to a free lunch. You haven't, and you're not.
> 
> If you can't afford $70, don't spend it. Take the stupid thing back to the store. Or better yet, spend tens of times over the "cost" of the "rebate" you didn't get and call a lawyer. Brilliant.
> 
> ...


If you find this behavior objectionable, then I'd strongly caution you against viewing any of the various Hot Deals forums at places like Fatwallet or Slick Deals.
Deals like these don't happen every day, but they're far from unheard of, and they generate lots of excitement like this deal is doing over here.
Most companies learn quickly to write the terms of their rebates more carefully. I've no doubt TiVo will do just that in the future.

For this particular case, I think they'll have to honor all the rebates. I don't think anybody will be contacting any personal lawyers - complaints to the FTC and State AG's office usually suffice, and are 'free' (or the highest paid lawyers in the land depending on how you like to count your tax dollars at work)

To take the moral question a step further, I'd like to ask this:
I don't know how retailers like Big Lots come by their stock in all cases, but I presume in this particular case they got the stock from someone other than TiVo. Your post seems to imply the same assumption.

If that is indeed the case, it seems safe to assume that TiVo has already been paid whatever a retailer normally pays TiVo for a S2DT.
Do you think TiVo is somehow being paid less for these particular Big Lots units than, say, the ones currently being sold at Amazon.com? I assume not.
If my assumption is correct, then TiVo is losing nothing by honoring the terms of the rebate as stated. Yes, someone is paying for the hefty discount the consumer is receiving, but I think that someone must be the original retailer who sold all this stock to Big Lots.
If that's the case, then the original retailer is out some dough, for reasons we cannot know, but I think TiVo, Big Lots, and the fortunate consumers who got in on this deal and get their rebate, are all being taken care of appropriately.

Do you disagree?


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

TiVotion said:


> I seriously can't believe some of you people. You buy a $70 TiVo and you expect to get $150 back. Then when you find out you can't, you cry and moan and threaten lawsuits. Un-freaking believeable. Like you've somehow been "damaged" or you're entitled to a free lunch. You haven't, and you're not.
> 
> Have you ever stopped to consider that places like Big Lots don't get their merchandise directly from manufacturers? They don't. They could have bought a lot of products from Billy Bob's TV shack. Big Lots wouldn't be considered an authorized reseller anyway - that should be common sense.


Personally, I would expect an authorized reseller to have the rebate available either in paper form or printed out with the receipt as Circuit City does (not sure about Best Buy). Although Big Lots may get closeout products or refurbs direct from manufacturers, I doubt very seriously that they are on TiVo's authorized reseller list as well. A lot of their merchandise also comes from other sources which is not direct.

Scott


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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

whine whine whine


> (6) Valid only for new, TiVo Series2 Digital Video Recorders purchased from an authorized TiVo retailer or through our website (www.tivo.com). Not valid for pre-owned, second party, demo, or display DVRs.


It ain't that complicated


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

mick66 said:


> whine whine whine
> 
> It ain't that complicated


Really?
So is your understanding that these do, or do not, qualify?
I assume you think the term "second party" is the one that invalidates Big Lots? If so, does that term have a legal definition? I would assume it refers to something like eBay sales by individuals, not any purchase made from a normal retailer.


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

TiVotion said:


> I seriously can't believe some of you people. You buy a $70 TiVo and you expect to get $150 back. Then when you find out you can't, you cry and moan and threaten lawsuits. Un-freaking believeable. Like you've somehow been "damaged" or you're entitled to a free lunch. You haven't, and you're not.


Why don't you just say that Tivo can pick and choose who it wants to give a rebate too!!! Who cares if the form says the box is eligible, I think Tivo should toss a coin for every rebate form it gets,: heads give them the money, tails too bad.


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## Mikeyis4dcats (Oct 2, 2003)

so...what if I pricematched this at Best Buy....Best Buy is obviously an authorized retailer.


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## brnscofrnld (Mar 30, 2005)

Mikeyis4dcats said:


> so...what if I pricematched this at Best Buy....Best Buy is obviously an authorized retailer.


I was thinking about that to, but for some reason, i don't remember seeing any S2DT at my local BestBuys.


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## pldoolittle (May 2, 2002)

TiVotion said:


> You buy a $70 TiVo and you expect to get $150 back.
> Like you've somehow been "damaged" <...>You haven't, and you're not.


Tivotion,

Personally, I didn't expect to get the rebate since the price seemed relatively equal to the historical post-rebate prices. That said;

Tivo advertises a $150 rebate on a new purchase with subscrip. It mentions NOTHING about the purchase price, or the rebate exceeding the purchase price. By all reasonable standards, the BL Tivo meets the criteria of the rebate. As such, it is reasonable assumption that in return for purchasing the Tivo ($73.50), and signing up for svc ($84-466), Tivo will send you a check for $150. In not doing so, Tivo has caused tangible damages of at least $150.00 and at most $540.00


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

The Big Lots deal is supposed to expire after Sunday, Oct. 7, so if you're going to price match you'd better do it soon.


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## BurnBaby (Sep 21, 2007)

I know this deal has now expired, but I just talked to tivo rebates (to check if the rebate would be valid for a purchase on another site) and they don't have a list of authorized resellers. :O The woman there said as long as the model # is on Fall 2007 rebate form and you've got a receipt/email confirmation order or PO for the appropriate dates, then the rebate should work. She also said that if you pre-qualified for the rebate then you should get it. So was she incorrect?

And how we supposed to know what is authorized reseller and what isn't if there is no list and tivo can't provide you with one if you call to ask about a specific merchant?


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## thiscloud (Sep 24, 2003)

Big Lots' item description now says:



> Manufacturer's rebate does not apply to this offer.


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

thiscloud said:


> Big Lots' item description now says:


Someone messed up on this somewhere. Possibly at Tivo, probably at BL.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

Just came here to post the description change at BL. For those still looking to buy one of these, there is a 20% coupon now out that should apply.
Taken from FatWallet:
Coupon

Anyone bold enough to use the coupon and fight for a rebate? 
I'd bet it's possible to pull off.


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## maggard (Jan 9, 2003)

"TiVo authorized retailer"

*Who?*

Folks keep parroting that but ignoring the fact there is no list of such.

Is Best Buy? Is Circuit City? Is Sears? Is Bob's Bait, Tackle, & TiVo Shop?

Until someone provides a list of such it's a meaningless phrase.

Yeah, it's quite probable that someone at Tivo messed up on this. Which is impressive because manufacturers rebates are a pretty standard thing and Tivo has a long history of them.

But there's also a lot of law on this, and pretty much all of it says TiVo is responsible for what they promised. As no reasonable person can tell if Big Lots is "TiVo authorized" or not then TiVo is on the hook.

As to taking advantage of this being ethical-we call it Capitalism. Would you be so ardent if this 'mistake' went the other way? Whups-TiVo retroactively wants $70 after undercharging your subscription?

Besides, if TiVo sells at below their cost and hopes to make it up on volume or subscriptions that's their call. Certainly a lot of online empires have tried to build themselves that way, not to mention the pen & razor industries.

As to the not-valid post, until something appears on tivo.com (because as we're reminded on every page "This site is not part of Tivo Inc.") it's not worth a darn. A single cryptic announcement on a 3rd party explicitly-disavowed web board doesn't meet any legal muster.

So I'm betting there's a kerfluffle inside TiVo HQ while they sort out their legal/financial liability. And if they're smart they're just gonna grit their teeth and pay out instead of trying to play detective, alienate a bunch of customers, and make themselves look any more dysfunctional then they already do.


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## nick1817 (Oct 25, 2005)

shadowplay said:


> They are free with these offers from Tivo...
> 
> http://dynamic.tivo.com/0.11.LP_kz.asp?a=ywca
> 
> ...


Awesome...I just clicked the first link, took me to Tivo site and I checked out for 10 bucks...Contrary to the Terms, it qualified for the MSD

Order Summary
-------------
Product Description Qty Item Price Tax* Total
S00010 The TiVo Package, 1 Year, Monthly 1 $ 10.95 $ 0.00 $ 10.95
R64980 80-hr TiVo Series2 DT DVR (TCD649080) 1 $ 0.00 $ 0.00 $ 0.00
TL0200 TiVo Welcome Letter 1 $ 0.00 $ 0.00 $ 0.00

Order Sub Total: $10.95
Shipping: $0.00
Tax: $0.00
Order Total: $10.95


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

maggard said:


> TiVo authorized retailer *Who?* Folks keep parroting that but ignoring the fact there is no list of such. Is Best Buy? Is Circuit City? Is Sears? Is Bobs Bait, Tackle, & TiVo Shop? Until someone provides a list of such its a meaningless phrase.


No, not meaningless. Very meaningful, but surely a gap in customer knowledge that works to the customer's detriment. The smart customer is well-advised to read that line and quickly assure themselves that their retailer is authorized before making a decision to purchase based on the assumption that the rebate will be honored. If folks aren't willing to take the chance, and cannot get such assurance, then the best advice I can come up with is to forgo the purchase.



maggard said:


> Yeah, its quite probable that someone at Tivo messed up on this.


On the contrary. I suspect someone at Big Lots messed up on this. Or, perhaps, someone at the rebate clearinghouse messed up (which given my past experience with them, is very likely). Or perhaps no one messed up, initially, and the mess-up was Big Lots adding the "rebate not applicable" notation. Time will tell.



maggard said:


> But theres also a lot of law on this, and pretty much all of it says TiVo is responsible for what they promised.


Absolutely, but that's not necessarily relevant. By refusing the rebate, they could quite possibly *living up to *what they promised, i.e., honoring the rebate when purchased from authorized dealers.



maggard said:


> As no reasonable person can tell if Big Lots is TiVo authorized or not then TiVo is on the hook.


That's assuming facts not in evidence. Have you called TiVo to ask?

As it is, the strongest argument presented so far is that the rebate pre-authorization was validated. That's TiVo's agent giving the official :up: to the rebate request. TiVo is responsible for the promises made by its agents. Unless the pre-authorization site had applicable exculpatory clauses, that should be enough to get TiVo to honor the rebate. However, it should be noted that I got into *this exact situation* with GE, who uses the exact same rebate clearinghouse, and I lost (but only $30 in that case).


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## maggard (Jan 9, 2003)

bicker said:


> maggard said:
> 
> 
> > TiVo authorized retailer
> ...


Emphasis mine.

...quickly assure themselves that their retailer is authorized

Quickly, slowly, via tivo.com or Tivos phone service or their pre-authorization form _*theres no way to tell*_.

End of discussion, everything else is moot, short of such a list being made available somehow its all bogus empty-talk and Tivo is on the hook.

over-and-out


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

maggard said:


> TiVo authorized retailer
> 
> Until someone provides a list of such its a meaningless phrase.


My take on the phrase is that they don't want people buying units off Ebay or an individual and trying to claim a rebate.

There is a list of authorized resellers, every company that sells goods has one. The question is did Tivo sell these units to BL or did someone else. If it is a wholesaler or some other company other than Tivo that sold them then they should be held responsible (by Tivo) for this mess.

It is my opinion, however, this is probably not the case. BL is not a small outfit therefore I find it hard to believe that BL got these boxes from anyone else but Tivo themselves.


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## Mikeyis4dcats (Oct 2, 2003)

just to be crystal clear, I can buy one of these and replace one of my existing boxes and still keep my MSD and no contract. The rebate and MSD would only *possibly* apply if I set up a new subscription and agreed to a 3 year contract.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

maggard said:


> End of discussion, everything else is moot, short of such a list being made available somehow its all bogus empty-talk and Tivo is on the hook.
> 
> over-and-out


"End of discussion"? "over-and-out"? -- Are you serious? 

Actually, short of such a list being made available, consumers should assume that they don't know if a retailer is authorized, and prudence dictates the consumer go forward under the presumption that the retailer is not. I don't think it is a good idea to set consumers up for trouble by asserting that they have the right to assume thing that they do not.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

maggard said:


> End of discussion, everything else is moot, short of such a list being made available somehow its all bogus empty-talk and Tivo is on the hook.
> 
> over-and-out


I've seen a ton of FUD and this thread, but what it really comes down to is that Tivo has Authorized Resellers (and remember way back when Costco wasn't one) and those resellers go through a certain distribution flow to get their units.

Folks are making it sounds like it's some magic process, but I just don't understand why anyone hasn't made the obvious analogy, "Gray Market" a long term issue in the camera market, and the bane of many manufacturers.

Just knowing how and why Big Lots! exists, it's clear they are not a first tier retail outlet, they are almost the definition of a "second party reseller" they bought someone elses overstock of the Tivos, almost without a doubt.

just my 2 cents.

Diane


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Very good point, Diane: If the deal sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't.


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## brnscofrnld (Mar 30, 2005)

Mikeyis4dcats said:


> just to be crystal clear, I can buy one of these and replace one of my existing boxes and still keep my MSD and no contract. The rebate and MSD would only *possibly* apply if I set up a new subscription and agreed to a 3 year contract.


Yep. Thats what I did. Went to Tivo.com and just updated my one of my Tivo service numbers with the new one and that was it. Hook it up and Tivo away.


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## jtlytle (May 17, 2005)

TiVotion said:


> I seriously can't believe some of you people. You buy a $70 TiVo and you expect to get $150 back. Then when you find out you can't, you cry and moan and threaten lawsuits. Un-freaking believeable. Like you've somehow been "damaged" or you're entitled to a free lunch. You haven't, and you're not.
> 
> If you can't afford $70, don't spend it. Take the stupid thing back to the store. Or better yet, spend tens of times over the "cost" of the "rebate" you didn't get and call a lawyer. Brilliant.
> 
> ...


 :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:


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## magnumis (Jan 6, 2005)

pdhenry said:


> In fact, there is precedent for at-a-loss retail sales of TiVo boxes.
> 
> In early 2005, a number of Sams Club stores were selling single tuner S2s for around $50, eligible for ~$100 rebate.


I also received rebates on the $50 Sams boxes. It was a great deal for me and for Tivo since I am still paying the monthly fees.


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## magnumis (Jan 6, 2005)

Crrink said:


> Just came here to post the description change at BL. For those still looking to buy one of these, there is a 20% coupon now out that should apply.
> Taken from FatWallet:
> Coupon
> 
> ...


The coupon works great. I bought several today for $60 each after sales tax.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> I've seen a ton of FUD and this thread, but what it really comes down to is that Tivo has Authorized Resellers (and remember way back when Costco wasn't one) and those resellers go through a certain distribution flow to get their units.
> 
> Folks are making it sounds like it's some magic process, but I just don't understand why anyone hasn't made the obvious analogy, "Gray Market" a long term issue in the camera market, and the bane of many manufacturers.
> 
> ...


This is all well and true, but I don't think anyone should have to find out Big Lots business model before they use an offer regarding a particular product, especially since TiVo apparently can't give you a list of authorized retailers even if you ask for it.

New TiVo from brick and mortar store of national retail chain should be good enough. It's not like people got them off the back of a white van.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Big Lots focus mainly on selling closeout and overstock merchandise. That should be everyone's first indication that they are not a first-tier retailer for advanced electronics like TiVo.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bicker said:


> Big Lots focus mainly on selling closeout and overstock merchandise. That should be everyone's first indication that they are not a first-tier retailer for advanced electronics like TiVo.


Yes, but they sell NEW, not used or refurbished, merchandise, and are a regular retail chain in every other way. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect products to carry the same factory warranties and rebates if you buy them there as if you buy them elsewhere.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Clearly that is not the case, as even Big Lots now acknowledges their earlier mistake in that regard. Rather, often (though not always) close-outs are offered without benefit of the same support provided to standard retail offerings of products. The most common restrictions on close-out merchandise is that return policies are often adjusted or suspended, however other restrictions are also not unusual. Customers are well-advised to assume that whenever offered a substantial discount over regular price that they're losing something as well as gaining something.


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> Just knowing how and why Big Lots! exists, it's clear they are not a first tier retail outlet, they are almost the definition of a "second party reseller" they bought someone elses overstock of the Tivos, almost without a doubt.
> 
> Diane


If this is true than why does this make the rebate invalid. Tivo already has their money from selling the units to the first party reseller. They were going to have to give out the rebate if the first reseller sold them so why does it matter?


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## ursine1 (May 1, 2001)

Without expressly prohibiting "closeout" retailers, or alternately publishing a list of "authorized resellers", TiVo doesn't really have legal ground to deny the rebates.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I think you're assuming facts not in evidence.


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## robertgp124 (Mar 15, 2004)

Thank you for the coupon earlier in this thread. :up: 

It worked at our BigLots and before tax, the tivo was $55.99. This was the perfect way for us to upgrade an existing elderly series 2. I used the process outlined to change the service number, and it works fine. I may actually call Tivo and reactivate the older unit later.

I suppose our rather rural area isn't a hotbed of Tivo lovers - there were probably a dozen Tivos in the store. They were sold out in the city down the interstate.

Given that we probably paid $500 for another unit (including lifetime service) and $200 for the unit I replaced, we're not complaining. A $150 rebate would be nice, but this was really cool.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

So how many Big Lots buyers are planning to submit for the rebate anyway? Nothing ventured nothing gained, and all it requires is a photcopy of the receipt and box code.


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## Hardin (Oct 10, 2007)

I am new here, as I *had* to register to make a couple of points. 

Both I am guessing that TiVO and Big Lots messed up. TiVO sold the units to Big Lots (more on this later) to move them quickly, assuming they wouldn't be valid for the rebate. Perhaps they even said to BL to include something about the rebate not being valid in the ad.

The biggest point that hasn't been raised is that TiVO authorized their name, logo, designs, etc to be used in the Big Lots ad. Meaning they knew that Big Lots had the units, the price and that nothing about the rebate being invalid was included. Anyone in retail/marketing for such stores knows you NEVER print a brand name or such UNLESS you have been given approval directly from the brand. 

In this case, I think they got the units directly from TiVO because I can't see why TiVO would allow them to drop the price of their unit otherwise. They would have simply said no to the request and BL's ad would have said something like "famous maker digital video recorder" with no brand name, no logo, etc.

So TiVO knew that this was going to happen--by 2 or 3 MONTHS! They took no action so they should pay out the rebates without question. 

Legally there is nothing they can do now. Having approved the use of their name and logo in advertising, they "authorized" the sale by Big Lots. End of story.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Your whole line of reasoning is based on your assumptions that TiVo authorized Big Lots to do what they did. You don't know that; there surely hasn't been any evidence presented showing that, and the only real evidence we have, that Big Lots changed their advertising, indicates the opposite. Who did what is the whole context of the conflict in this thread. Saying that you believe they did without evidence just underscores, again, that we simply don't know who is at fault, rather than supports either side of the argument.


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## Hardin (Oct 10, 2007)

bicker said:


> Your whole line of reasoning is based on your assumptions that TiVo authorized Big Lots to do what they did. You don't know that; there surely hasn't been any evidence presented showing that, and the only real evidence we have, that Big Lots changed their advertising, indicates the opposite. Who did what is the whole context of the conflict in this thread. Saying that you believe they did without evidence just underscores, again, that we simply don't know who is at fault, rather than supports either side of the argument.


Nope...it is NOT me assuming anything. Big Lots, Tuesday Morning, TJ Maxx, etc will never, ever advertise a brand name or use a logo they don't have approval to do so. They will be sued in almost 100% of the cases and they would lose. Why in the world do you think that most of these chains don't advertise much or commonly use "national brand" or "famous maker" or "number one rated brand" etc if they could use the brand name? Because they don't have the right to advertise that brand without approval.

The fact that not only the brand name, but the logo was there as well means that TiVO approved the use of their property.

Furthermore, Big Lots haven't changed their advertising--merely adjusted their website "ad" to include the rebate comment. Such an ad is nothing compared to the 2-3 month lead time approved ad they sent out nationwide last week to millions (or tens of millions) of households.

Also, Big Lots has not removed the TiVO name, the logo or anything else--meaning that when TiVO contacted them to insert the comment, they ONCE AGAIN were fine with Big Lots using those items. Now I am sure you are thinking, "but how do we know Big Lots was contacted by TiVO?". There is no reason for Big Lots to include the comment about the rebate they didn't advertise unless TiVO was concerned. Big Lots isn't going to have to pay the rebate so why care, after the "sale/special" is over? Because TiVO asked them to.

Before you rip this apart, I respectfully request you provide ACTUAL proof that I am wrong. Having worked in this industry I know more then most folks chatting on a forum would. I am not here to upset anyone, but to make sure folks understand TiVO knew in advance of this sale, approved the use of their name and logo, did nothing to change the outcome. If they reject these rebates, legally it won't be too hard to go to Big Lots for proof of TiVO's advance knowledge. So they have no option other then to honor them. If you want to make the case that the website change should make them not valid after that update, then they would have to have signs posted in store and stickers on the product at the very least to try to make the rebate invalid for future sales. To date all I know of is the website note which isn't enough to change anything legally.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Hardin said:


> Big Lots, Tuesday Morning, TJ Maxx, etc will never, ever advertise a brand name or use a logo they don't have approval to do so.


Unless they make a mistake. And this isn't just about using a logo, because they're allowed to do so and still not be an "authorized" dealer. I think you're getting caught up in what you know their intentions to be and missing the point that Big Lots has ostensibly already admitted they made a mistake.



Hardin said:


> Furthermore, Big Lots haven't changed their advertising--merely adjusted their website "ad" to include the rebate comment.


Are you serious? This is like saying "black is white". What language are you speaking in? Perhaps I can pass your message through an online translation program to understand it better. 



Hardin said:


> Before you rip this apart, I respectfully request you provide ACTUAL proof that I am wrong.


You already have done that for me by posting two contradictory assertions immediately next to each other.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

In two posts I suspect our new friend *Hardin * has relegated himself to a lot of ignore lists. As the saying goes..."Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

bicker said:


> Are you serious? This is like saying "black is white". What language are you speaking in? Perhaps I can pass your message through an online translation program to understand it better.


I understood his comment, I don't understand yours.

If Tivo didn't approve of BL selling these units then it is doubleful BL would have advertised them. Hardin is concluding that since they advertised them (and later revised their advertisement after their initial publication) that Tivo is communicate their issues with BL directly.

Whether or not this makes them an authroized retailer is the question, I think we all know your opinion.


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## Hardin (Oct 10, 2007)

bicker said:


> Unless they make a mistake. And this isn't just about using a logo, because they're allowed to do so and still not be an "authorized" dealer. I think you're getting caught up in what you know their intentions to be and missing the point that Big Lots has ostensibly already admitted they made a mistake.
> 
> Are you serious? This is like saying "black is white". What language are you speaking in? Perhaps I can pass your message through an online translation program to understand it better.
> 
> You already have done that for me by posting two contradictory assertions immediately next to each other.


Please notice the quotes around ad in regard to the website picture. Most ads are not on company owned property--such ads are called signs. The flyer in which the orginal ad was in was sent as an advertisment to millions of homes, businesses, etc. The website photo wasn't sent to anyone, it was simply posted on company property meaning you would have to visit their location (in this case online) to see such the "sign/ad".

The fact that you are rude enough to drop to a personal attack to make your point shows quite a bit about you. I will not stoop to that level because if you open your thoughts to my points, you will come to realize that they do actually make sense.

Your point is that Big Lots made a mistake in using the brand name and the logo in their advertising. If so, why haven't they adjusted that in their web "sign/ad"? Why add the comment about rebates on their own?

It sure seems like TiVO contacted them regarding the rebate comment, yet had no problem with their usage of TiVO's property.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Hardin said:


> It sure seems like TiVO contacted them regarding the rebate comment, yet had no problem with their usage of TiVO's property.


That's how it seems to me too.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

irandsert said:


> If Tivo didn't approve of BL selling these units then it is doubleful BL would have advertised them.


Which is irrelevant to whether they're an authorized dealer. That's really the point. People are trying to interpret the term literally, when its meaning is not necessarily so literal. "Authorized dealer" has a very specific meaning, different from what he was asserting it meant.



irandsert said:


> Hardin is concluding that since they advertised them (and later revised their advertisement after their initial publication) that Tivo is communicate their issues with BL directly.


Which even if true still doesn't mean the boxes are eligible for the rebate.



irandsert said:


> Whether or not this makes them an authroized retailer is the question, I think we all know your opinion.


My opinion is no longer relevant: The action that Big Lots has taken to change their advertising is implicit proof that they're not an authorized dealer.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Hardin said:


> The fact that you are rude enough to drop to a personal attack to make your point shows quite a bit about you.


And if your skin is so thin that you actually perceived a personal attack directed at you, you're going to have a very unpleasant experience online.

There was no personal attack. You were mistaken.



Hardin said:


> Your point is that Big Lots made a mistake in using the brand name and the logo in their advertising.


Don't tell me what my point was. I didn't say anything of the sort. Please restrict your arguments directed at me to things I actually did say, rather than what is easier for you to argue against.



Hardin said:


> It sure seems like TiVO contacted them regarding the rebate comment, yet had no problem with their usage of TiVO's property.


Which is 100% consistent with the points I've made.


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

bicker said:


> "Authorized dealer" has a very specific meaning, different from what he was asserting it meant.


Pray tell, exactly what does it mean? (Not that you even have the term correct - the rebate specifies "authorized TiVo retailer") TiVo doesn't seem to know, as someone above called specifically to ask. If TiVo can't say, it's perfectly reasonable for the consumer to consider a national retailer to be an authorized retailer of these new-in-the-box units.


bicker said:


> The action that Big Lots has taken to change their advertising is implicit proof that they're not an authorized dealer.


That is a non sequitor.

It appears that they received the units from TiVo (based on sheer volume, and lack of any evidence otherwise). Are you claiming that Big Lots bought the units from TiVo with the understanding that they were not authorized to sell them? That's just plain silly.

The units clearly meet the rebate terms, even if Big Lots makes a disclaimer. Big Lots saying "rebate not valid" has no more effect on the relationship between TiVo and the customer than if they said "Free lifetime service with every unit."


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

m.s said:


> If TiVo can't say, it's perfectly reasonable for the consumer to consider a national retailer to be an authorized retailer of these new-in-the-box units.


No, not "perfectly reasonable". When words don't make sense, it is reasonable to believe that we don't know the answer, NOT that the answer is the one that we like best.



m.s said:


> It appears that they received the units from TiVo (based on sheer volume, and lack of any evidence otherwise). Are you claiming that Big Lots bought the units from TiVo with the understanding that they were not authorized to sell them? That's just plain silly.


Which is why it was wrong to think that that was what I said. However, arguing against what is easiest to argue against, instead of what people actually say, is a very common dodge online.

As you point out, we have no idea where the units came from. Seems like we really must get past that first. I don't see how, but that's life.

Even if we do assume they were purchased from TiVo direct, TiVo is entitled to sell them without granting "authorized TiVo retailer" status. Does that mean Big Lots is not entitled to sell them? Of course not! Who would say something like that? However, it is surely easier to argue against. :down:

More generally, when OEMs have excess supply of product, they do pawn them off on close-out retailers, and often those deals don't convey all the same attributes when the OEM sells to first-tier wholesalers.

Why people choose to read more into that than the words is mystifying.



m.s said:


> The units clearly meet the rebate terms, even if Big Lots makes a disclaimer.


You're wrong about that. They clearly didn't meet the rebate terms. So the question that remains is WHY? The most likely explanation is that Big Lots is not an "authorized TiVo retailer". Folks may not LIKE that, and I sympathize. However, as I mentioned before, this is about reality, not about what we want.

And it is a disservice to readers to lead them to believe that they have rights that they don't clearly have.


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

bicker said:


> You're wrong about that. They clearly didn't meet the rebate terms. So the question that remains is WHY? The most likely explanation is that Big Lots is not an "authorized TiVo retailer". Folks may not LIKE that, and I sympathize. However, as I mentioned before, this is about reality, not about what we want.
> 
> And it is a disservice to readers to lead them to believe that they have rights that they don't clearly have.


The only rebate term they did not meet is one that states an authorized retailer. We are all assuming this one was the one that Tivo is denying rebates on.

I am interested in what you feel a consumer should do given these circumstances? A consumer sees a box, sees a rebate form, and assumes he can get the rebate. All I am saying is that someone screwed up here and the consumers got the shaft. The only reason we know that these are not eligible is b/c we participate in these forums. There are probably hundreds of others that will soon curse Tivo's name when they find out their rebate is denied.

Companies get bad reputations based on consumer experiences such as these. I personally hate that Tivo did this b/c I would like to see them succeed. I would like to think that we can all agree that if Tivo wanted to deny the rebates, which is their right, they should have done more to inform consumers that this was their intent.


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

bicker said:


> More generally, when OEMs have excess supply of product, they do pawn them off on close-out retailers, and often those deals don't convey all the same attributes when the OEM sells to first-tier wholesalers.


 You totally ignored the opportunity to clearly define what exactly "authorized retailer" means. You obviously do not know, and pulled your claim out of thin air. Since you continue to insist that Big Lots isn't an authorized retailer, please be so kind as to point the rest of us at an official TiVo list of authorized retailers, since you're the only one (including TiVo) who seems to know.

The rebate terms do not exclude closeouts or overstocks.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

A quick search will show that many electronics manufacturers use the term "authorized retailer", crutchfield explains the benefits as:


> Did you know that Crutchfield is an Authorized Retailer for every brand we sell?
> Crutchfield is an Authorized Internet Retailer for Sony, Denon, Onkyo, Alpine, Kicker, Rockford Fosgate, Pioneer, Bose, Kenwood, Polk Audio, Infinity, JBL, Blaupunkt, Clarion  and every other brand we offer.
> 
> Why should you purchase from an Authorized Internet Retailer?
> ...


I can't ever envisage Big Lots providing any of these services to their customers.


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

petew said:


> A quick search will show that many electronics manufacturers use the term "authorized retailer", crutchfield explains the benefits as:
> 
> I can't ever envisage Big Lots providing any of these services to their customers.


So, Best Buy isn't an "authorized retailer," either?

1)Big Lots provides dated receipts, and there's no statement saying the warranty isn't valid. How is that any different than whoever you consider to be "authorized?"

2)Uh, according to TiVo, the service is only available in the "50 United States of America, the District of Columbia, Canada, Mexico through Cablevision and and Taiwan through TGC." Are you claiming the Big Lot units came from overseas distribution? How strange that the guided setup asks for a US ZIP code.

3)Best Buy. Circuit City. Sears. 'nuff said.

Finally, WTF does Crutchfield have to do with any of this? Google "authorized tivo retailer" and see what you come up with. Hint: absolutely nothing which indicates who is/isn't authorized. Why is it that none of Best Buy, Circuit City or Sears claims to be an "authorized TiVo retailer?"

Big Lots states "Big Lots works with manufacturers who need to reduce inventory due to overstocking, package changes, cancelled orders or discontinued items, product testing." They specifically say "manufacturers," which excludes other retailers. That is a clear indication that these units came directly from TiVo.

That only makes sense - if they came from another retailer, why would TiVo even care about the rebate, since they already got their money?

The simple fact is, if TiVo didn't want a rebate to apply to these units, they should have some *clear and unambiguous* exclusion in their rebate offer. They don't.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

petew said:


> I can't ever envisage Big Lots providing any of these services to their customers.


Woah, are you trying to imply that the Big Lots box comes without a manufacturer's warranty? That the TiVo was destined for a non-US market?

Bzzzz. Try again.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

irandsert said:


> The only rebate term they did not meet is one that states an authorized retailer. We are all assuming this one was the one that Tivo is denying rebates on.


Absolutely. That's the soundest assumption that can be made at this time.



irandsert said:


> I am interested in what you feel a consumer should do given these circumstances?


Since Big Lots posted misleading and erroneous information, they should make good on the rebate. Complaint to Big Lots and if you don't get satisfaction from that quarter, work your way up their management chain, or seek out other actions you're entitled to take against Big Lots for having mislead you.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

m.s said:


> You totally ignored the opportunity to clearly define what exactly "authorized retailer" means.


I ignored it because you asked the wrong person. TiVo gets to define that, not you, and not me.



m.s said:


> You obviously do not know, and pulled your claim out of thin air.


See irandsert's message, and chill out.



m.s said:


> The rebate terms do not exclude closeouts or overstocks.


The rebate terms do not include closeouts or overstocks.


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

bicker said:


> The rebate terms do not include closeouts or overstocks.


You are, of course, wrong (as most AHs are).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Read the terms again.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

> TiVo® Inc. Fall Rebate
> 
> TiVo 2007 Fall Rebate Terms & Conditions
> 
> ...


I searched the above for the terms "closeout" and "overstock" and found neither. What's your point?


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## cheerdude (Feb 27, 2001)

My guess is that #6 mentioning "second party" applies to stores that handle closeout/overstock items.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

> What's your point?


The rebate terms and conditions does not include anything about closeouts or overstocks at all. They aren't specifically excluded *nor* included. That was my point, in response to m.s' erroneous assertion that the terms and conditions doesn't exclude them. I hope that clears that up for you.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

> My guess is that #6 mentioning "second party" applies to stores that handle closeout/overstock items.


That seems plausible as well.


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## irandsert (Mar 23, 2004)

cheerdude said:


> My guess is that #6 mentioning "second party" applies to stores that handle closeout/overstock items.


I agree that this is most likely the case. I still think that Tivo and BL should have handled this better. Nothing ever good comes when consumers are forced to go through the rebate-run-around.


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## Hardin (Oct 10, 2007)

RE: The second party quote



irandsert said:


> I agree that this is most likely the case. I still think that Tivo and BL should have handled this better. Nothing ever good comes when consumers are forced to go through the rebate-run-around.


The problem again with TiVO using such an "out" is that these were not sold as gray market, which is the other term for second party transactions. These were sold with a TiVO warranty and advertised by Big Lots with TiVO's approval. That means unlike Costco which normally sells gray market goods with no manufacture warranty (so they offer their own in house one and an excellent return policy to make up for it), Big Lots (in this case) either purchased these directly from TiVO with permission to advertise it or they got TiVO to agree to allow them to advertise it with the dropped price--which seems more unlikely of the two.

bicker seems bent on BL being the bad guy and TiVO being faultless in this which just does not add up. There is no possible way that BL didn't have permission to use their rights--this isn't their first time with such issues and if you follow their ads you see they rarely use brand names let alone logos in there ads.

I can see that some folks seem to be protecting TiVO's interests at the cost of customers and perhaps BL (with suggesting that you pester them for the rebate). I am here for the customers rights and I have directly impacted such issues before because companies do read these boards and when customers start realizing their rights, it is amazing how quickly companies honor things.

Right now I would love to blame BL as well for screwing up in doing something, yet I have no proof that they did since TiVO won't talk. The details point to TiVO for not handling SOME aspect of this correctly. But I am sure bicker will have something to say about that too.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Hardin said:


> bicker seems bent on BL being the bad guy and TiVO being faultless in this which just does not add up.


I could say the same about you seeming bent on TiVo being the bad guy. THAT doesn't add up. Big Lots made a mistake AND corrected it. TiVo hasn't taken any action to indicate that they made a mistake in this case.



Hardin said:


> There is no possible way that BL didn't have permission to use their rights


Which, again, has absolutely nothing to do with what I've written.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

I think "second party" denotes a situation where the product is purchased at retail and resold to another buyer. A Big Lots purchase is the first retail sale of the box.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

bicker said:


> I could say the same about you seeming bent on TiVo being the bad guy. THAT doesn't add up. Big Lots made a mistake AND corrected it. TiVo hasn't taken any action to indicate that they made a mistake in this case.
> 
> Which, again, has absolutely nothing to do with what I've written.


The problem with blaming Big Lots is that they didn't issue the rebate, TiVo did, therefore it's TiVo's ultimate responsibility to protect themselves against any scenarios in which they wouldn't want to honor the rebate.

In my opinion they failed to do that adequately in this case.
They can claim BL isn't an "authorized TiVo retailer," and they can claim the TiVo's are sold by a "second party," but I don't think either claim will satisfy the FTC or the CA AG (the one I have experience with).

Replay TV had a somewhat analogous event 3 years ago when they unbundled service from their boxes. Some retailers jumped the gun and lowered shelf prices before the unbundling was official, which led to a lot of people (like me) getting 40 hour RTV's with 3 years of guaranteed service for $150. Both RTV and Circuit City (the retailer I bought from) tried to take the hard line at first. RTV caved within two weeks and converted all the units to Lifetime Service.

That example isn't quite the same thing, but I believe that TiVo will end up having to honor these rebates, and I also believe they should honor them.
But we'll see what happens.
I couldn't quite justify getting one, so I don't have a dog in this fight.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Crrink said:


> The problem with blaming Big Lots is that they didn't issue the rebate, TiVo did, therefore it's TiVo's ultimate responsibility to protect themselves against any scenarios in which they wouldn't want to honor the rebate.


Sorry but that sounds like just "made up rules" to me. TiVo's responsibility is to outline their rules in the terms and conditions. Regardless of whether Big Lots didn't qualify because they're not an "authorized TiVo retailer" or because they're "second party" (I'll grant either scenario to those folks partial to either), TiVo has done their job. Big Lots made the error. THEY included the reference to the rebate in THEIR advertising even though the terms and conditions of the rebate excluded the units they were selling.



Crrink said:


> They can claim BL isn't an "authorized TiVo retailer," and they can claim the TiVo's are sold by a "second party," but I don't think either claim will satisfy the FTC or the CA AG (the one I have experience with).


Sorry, but, with respect, I don't see any reason to believe you. That's the anti-TiVo side of things -- it doesn't map to any *objective *foundation.

I've been happy to grant that TiVo was wrong when they've _actually_ done something wrong (8.1 performance issues, perhaps 9.1 performance and functionality regressions, failure to support closed captions on SD recordings with cable system insertions [8.1], etc.) This simply isn't one of those times that TiVo is wrong.


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## thiscloud (Sep 24, 2003)

bicker said:


> Big Lots made the error. THEY included the reference to the rebate in THEIR advertising even though the terms and conditions of the rebate excluded the units they were selling.


Actually, according to the Google cache of the Big Lots page before they updated it to say it did NOT qualify, Big Lots never claimed that it qualified (and I'm pretty sure the print ad made no such claim either), but then other ads from known authorized retailers don't always state that a TiVo they're selling qualifies.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

bicker said:


> Sorry but that sounds like just "made up rules" to me. TiVo's responsibility is to outline their rules in the terms and conditions. Regardless of whether Big Lots didn't qualify because they're not an "authorized TiVo retailer" or because they're "second party" (I'll grant either scenario to those folks partial to either), TiVo has done their job. Big Lots made the error. THEY included the reference to the rebate in THEIR advertising even though the terms and conditions of the rebate excluded the units they were selling.
> 
> Sorry, but, with respect, I don't see any reason to believe you. That's the anti-TiVo side of things -- it doesn't map to any *objective *foundation.
> 
> I've been happy to grant that TiVo was wrong when they've _actually_ done something wrong (8.1 performance issues, perhaps 9.1 performance and functionality regressions, failure to support closed captions on SD recordings with cable system insertions [8.1], etc.) This simply isn't one of those times that TiVo is wrong.


You seem to be mistaking my opinions for statements of some sort of legal fact.
They aren't, and I'm not a lawyer.

What I am is a consumer who frequents various Hot-Deal forums, and have seen issues like these arise several times over the past 5 years or so.
In each and every case I can recall, the party who issued the rebate has ultimately been held responsible for honoring it.

I gave the RTV example as the most recent, most comparable analogy that I actually participated in. This situation may not be resolved in a similar manner, but I believe it will be.
I guess we'll see.

Edited to add:
You can disagree with my statement about the FTC and CA AG, but my own, actual experience is that both organizations are very pro-consumer, and actually have the ability to force companies to act, unlike the toothless BBB, which is a complete waste of time for anyone seeking redress against a company.

And I'm not interested in whether you think TiVo is wrong or right. Unfortunately wrong or right doesn't really enter into it. 
All that matters is whether TiVo did an adequate job of defining the terms of the rebate to prevent people buying at Big Lots from being covered.

I don't think they did. You think they do. We disagree. No big deal, though I would ask you this:
How can you feel that the "authorized TiVo retailer" claim is worth anything when nobody can obtain a list of who is and who isn't one? If TiVo doesn't have to disclose who qualifies, then they have an out to reject any rebate at any time. That simply can't be.

And if Big Lots is a "second party" retailer, wouldn't you agree that must be a clearly defined legal term? And if so can you offer any evidence that Big Lots qualifies as one? I can't offer any either way, and remain open on that issue - you seem to have your mind made up, and I'm just curious if you have any *objective* reason behind your statement.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

As I said, I simply don't believe what you're saying. As you've said as well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

bicker said:


> As I said, I simply don't believe what you're saying. As you've said as well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


What don't you believe?
If you disagree with my opinion, that's fine, if you're calling me a liar, that's not.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

thiscloud said:


> Actually, according to the Google cache of the Big Lots page before they updated it to say it did NOT qualify, Big Lots never claimed that it qualified (and I'm pretty sure the print ad made no such claim either), but then other ads from known authorized retailers don't always state that a TiVo they're selling qualifies.


I never saw the online ad before it was linked here, but I do have the original print ad. The print ad says "Save 72%. Compare to $249 before rebate."

A reasonable person could conclude that this item is available for rebate since the compare-to price is stated to have a rebate. They bring up the topic of the rebate without saying that this unit is or isn't eligible.


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## tmesser (Apr 12, 2003)

bicker said:


> Big Lots made the error. THEY included the reference to the rebate in THEIR advertising even though the terms and conditions of the rebate excluded the units they were selling.


I'm sorry, what? Can you point me to the section of the rebate terms and conditions that specifically exclude these boxes?

...yeah, I didn't think so. You even admitted earlier in this thread that the terms neither exclude nor include the boxes.

All I see in this thread is a lot of assumptions. I'd love to see TiVo explain why they're not honoring the rebate. Until then, anything anybody else says is unfounded.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

We have already discussed two possibilities for exclusions. Neither TiVo nor Big Lots have announced publicly which of the two exclusions (or perhaps some other that no one here guessed) applied in this case. 

There are a lot of assumptions in this thread... perhaps no one should have tried to place any fault on anyone. However, if fault is going to be assigned, despite having such inadequate information, best to place that fault where the evidence points: Big Lots.


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## Lyme Greene (Mar 14, 2005)

My pre-qualified rebate, through www.tivorebates.com was rejected today. Says "The TSN submitted is not eligible for this promotion." Why was the pre qualified TSN approved then? I have not gone through this thread totally, but it looks like this is Tivo's fault.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Lyme Greene said:


> I have not gone through this thread totally, but it looks like this is Tivo's fault.


No question that it is an easier and potentially more emotionally satisfying conclusion to make.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

Lyme Greene said:


> My pre-qualified rebate, through www.tivorebates.com was rejected today. Says "The TSN submitted is not eligible for this promotion." Why was the pre qualified TSN approved then? I have not gone through this thread totally, but it looks like this is Tivo's fault.


There is a person on FatWallet reporting that this happened to him, and a 2 minute phone call to the rebate center got his rebate approved.
Give that a try.


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## FatesWebb (May 1, 2007)

Einselen said:


> Last one does not work, but looks like it is eligible for MSD pricing as well. Very very tempting....


I purchased 2 of those from the first link, and they are MSD, they are new, and yes you only pay the first months bill and free shipping took 2 days.


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## Lyme Greene (Mar 14, 2005)

Crrink said:


> There is a person on FatWallet reporting that this happened to him, and a 2 minute phone call to the rebate center got his rebate approved.
> Give that a try.


Already taken care of, thanks


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## Taps (Sep 25, 2003)

I just got off the phone with the tivo rebate rep. He informed me that the reason my rebate was declined was that I had not waited 30 days since activating the service to submit it. And that I should re-submit it after the 30 Days was up. I will try it again on Nov 2, and see what the outcome it.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

That shouldn't be grounds for rejection of the rebate. You don't have to wait 30 days - the rebate house does. If the box is still active when the 30 day return period expires the rebate is processed.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

There is nothing in the rules that says that the rebate house has to wait. I'm not surprised that they don't. I've found them to be completely focused on reducing their cost, while still serving their commitments to their customers (like TiVo).


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

bicker said:


> There is nothing in the rules that says that the rebate house has to wait.


In the fine print on the rebate form is this:


> (3) New TiVo service* activation required between 09/09/2007 and 11/27/2007, inclusive, and must be active for at least 30 days (beyond TiVo trial period) in order to be eligible for rebate. All eligibility requirements must be satisfied prior to submission of rebate.


This tells me they won't cut a check until your trial period hs expired, and actually implies that you do need to wait until after the trial period before submitting the rebate (this wasn't the case a couple of years ago - there was a step in the rebate house's process that dealt with waiting for the 30-day window to expire - it was apparent if you checked on the status of the rebate while they were waiting).


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## fredct (Nov 15, 2004)

pdhenry said:


> In the fine print on the rebate form is this:This tells me they won't cut a check until your trial period hs expired, and actually implies that you do need to wait until after the trial period before submitting the rebate (this wasn't the case a couple of years ago - there was a step in the rebate house's process that dealt with waiting for the 30-day window to expire - it was apparent if you checked on the status of the rebate while they were waiting).


Actually, I'm just going through the rebate process right now. I waited a week or so but decided to send it and see what happened. The rebate house held it until 30 days arrived (which it did a couple days ago), and then moved it to "Step 3: Approved".

While they may not do it in all cases, chances are the rep was just looking for the easiest answer that would make you the least upset. You probably have a Big Lots problem, not a 30 days problem, but you'll see (fyi, I did not buy through Big Lots).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

pdhenry said:


> In the fine print on the rebate form is this:This tells me they won't cut a check until your trial period hs expired, and actually implies that you do need to wait until after the trial period before submitting the rebate (this wasn't the case a couple of years ago - there was a step in the rebate house's process that dealt with waiting for the 30-day window to expire - it was apparent if you checked on the status of the rebate while they were waiting).


I was pretty sure I remembered reading that, when I did the rebate thing myself, earlier. Thanks for finding and posting it.


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## ragnrok23 (Sep 18, 2007)

fredct said:


> While they may not do it in all cases, chances are the rep was just looking for the easiest answer that would make you the least upset. You probably have a Big Lots problem, not a 30 days problem, but you'll see (fyi, I did not buy through Big Lots).


The reason I was rejected was invaled TSN # (I did submit a little early) The rep didn't say anything why it was rejected, just applogized for the inconvience, and fixed it. FYI- when I bring it up on-line it is now approved


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Something I cannot understand -- Given that Costco isn't an authorized TiVo reseller, whatever made people think that Big Lots simply had to be? 


> ... Costco is not an "authorized" dealer of the merchandise.


Source: Costco Wholesale Corporation


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

You act as though this should be common knowledge.

Has anyone ever received a rebate for a Costco TiVo?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Costco is a pretty reputable outfit, so they make that notation right on the page where you'd order the TiVo from them. :up:


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

pdhenry said:


> You act as though this should be common knowledge.
> 
> Has anyone ever received a rebate for a Costco TiVo?


I certainly have the impression that people have, but I'm far too lazy to actually go out and look for that info.


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## Taps (Sep 25, 2003)

Taps said:


> I just got off the phone with the tivo rebate rep. He informed me that the reason my rebate was declined was that I had not waited 30 days since activating the service to submit it. And that I should re-submit it after the 30 Days was up. I will try it again on Nov 2, and see what the outcome it.


Well, its after Nov 2. I just called TiVo Rebate. I gave them my TSN Numbers.

She changed the status and told me to expect my checks within 4-6 weeks. Also hit up the tracking page on TiVo's site. Says that they are scheduled to be sent.

So I will see if I get my checks.

Overall, probably the most pleasant experience I have had with any customer support call. And I used to do that for a living.... Technical support at least.


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## maggard (Jan 9, 2003)

Rebates are coming in:

http://troyontivo.blogspot.com/2007/11/tivo-lots-rebate.html

Sorry, Bicker.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Don't apologize to me.


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## J5cents (Jan 6, 2006)

Anyone else getting their rebates? I'm closing in on 30 days and haven't heard anything.


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## kdr8490 (Jul 23, 2003)

pdhenry said:


> You act as though this should be common knowledge.
> 
> Has anyone ever received a rebate for a Costco TiVo?


I have in the past purchased a TIVO from Costco and received the rebate. Also, please remember that TIVO qualifies for Costco's lifetime warranty. Just return it to Costco and they will take care of it.


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