# "Bolt Pro" speculation



## tarheelblue32

So, I've been thinking about this since Ira's fireside chat with all of us. He clearly seemed to indicate that a replacement for the Roamio Plus/Pro is likely coming sometime next year, but was scarce on the details. What does everyone else think that we are likely to see in the upcoming Roamio Pro replacement? 

I suppose the first question is what will it be called? I would think that "Bolt Pro" would be the most likely name. And will they keep with the white/curved design of the Bolt, or will the enclosure be more traditional? How many tuners will it have? Surely it would have to be at least 6, but could it be more? And finally, will it be digital cable only or will there be OTA tuners also?

I don't think that TiVo is going to get too crazy with the "Bolt Pro", because it will also need to double as their MSO box in the future. I think that will mean using the more traditional shape, because MSOs aren't going to want some funky curved box. I also think this means no OTA capabilities. MSOs aren't going to want OTA tuners in a box meant for their cable systems. It's possible that TiVo could put them in there just for the retail boxes, but that would hurt the manufacturing efficiencies from standardizing the retail and MSO hardware. I also think that this means there will be at least 6 but no more than 8 tuners. MSOs aren't going to want to go higher than that 8 or want 2 CableCards to support more than 8 tuners.


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## moyekj

Pretty sure it will be 6 tuners. Current Tuning Adapters which many TiVo users need I don't think support more than 6, so that's one compelling reason for TiVo to keep it at 6 max.


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## waynomo

Of course there will be a larger HD. The question is how large. We are sure it will be at least 6 GB. If they really want to make this a "Top of the line" machine I would speculate that they will have a 6 TB drive.


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## waynomo

Forgetting tuners and HD, what kind of enhancements could they put in the box to improve its performance?

Could it handle more formats of video? Could it handle what is there now better? What about different audio capabilities?


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## moyekj

2-3 TB is plenty for me, so hopefully there will be an unit with smaller built in drive available if they do offer 4+ TB units. Not really sold on the Bolt and recurring yearly charges yet though so may be moot point.


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## waynomo

moyekj said:


> 2-3 TB is plenty for me . . .


3 TB is plenty for me also, but given there has always been an increase in HD size whenever a new model has been released I would be surprised if they didn't continue with that precedent. Perhaps it makes sense for them to do a plus/pro option of 3 TB or 6 TB.

If 4k or ultra HD (or whatever you want to call it) broadcast television ever becomes a reality how much more space does a program take up on a HD? (Broadcast would include cable companies, etc. Anything you record to watch later)


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## tarheelblue32

moyekj said:


> Pretty sure it will be 6 tuners. Current Tuning Adapters which many TiVo users need I don't think support more than 6, so that's one compelling reason for TiVo to keep it at 6 max.


If MSOs wanted to go to 8 tuners, I'm pretty sure they could get the firmware updated on the CableCards and Tuning Adapters to handle 8 tuners. And MSO boxes don't usually need Tuning Adapters anyways. They can usually handle SDV internally if needed. It's really a question of whether or not the MSOs want to push it to 8 tuners or not.


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## CoxInPHX

moyekj said:


> Pretty sure it will be 6 tuners. Current Tuning Adapters which many TiVo users need I don't think support more than 6, so that's one compelling reason for TiVo to keep it at 6 max.


Technically 8 streams is currently possible with Cisco, although I doubt much testing has been done in the field, as I do not know of any 8 tuner equipment. TiVo would have to push pretty hard to get the MSOs to test and deploy firmware to support equipment used only by TiVo.

The Cisco PKM908 CableCARD is an 8 stream Card
The Cisco Tuning Adapter currently supports 8 sessions with firmware F.2001.

But that leaves all of Motorola out which accounts for ~50% of Cable subs, unless ARRIS has something in the works.


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## fcfc2

Hi,
My guess is the Bolt Pro changes will be modest, 6 tuners and a larger 2.5" hd (3TB). I would prefer to see a slightly larger case with better ventilation to accommodate larger 3.5" hard drives, but what I would like to see matters zero as I am pretty certain the design and features are already pretty much fixed.


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## SullyND

My guess is essentially a Roamio Pro with a new bezel and updated hardware.


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## aaronwt

6 tuners is a given since that is what the Roamio Pro has. And the hard drive couldn't be less than 3TB since the Romaio Pro has 3TB. I really can't see it being much different than the Roamio Pro except with a newer and faster chipset. Like the Broadcom one that can transcode four streams. I could see a 4TB, 3.5 inch drive since those prices have come down and WD does have an A/V version.


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## BigJimOutlaw

Nothing super fancy or outrageous.

A more traditional form factor (so MSO partners don't reject it), 6 tuners, 1 and 3 TB, 4 transcode streams, uses the BCM7445 chip Tivo/Broadcom ran a press release on last year (so it'll basically be twice as powerful as the Bolt).

What might interest me more is what Tivo does in software. They're phasing out old code, and probably have more UI plans other than just a color swap. They'll be at a point where the hardware will let them do some interesting things if they want to, like show all tuners on the screen at once as a fancy tuner-selection trick, or whatever. They can be more inventive. Will they? Who knows. But the hardware itself is, I think, fairly predictable.


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## atmuscarella

If Ira hadn't said what he did, I would have voted that the "Bolt Pro" would be 6 tuner 3TB version of the Bolt. But Ira's statement indicates that he expects it to be much more than that. So what would much more be? Ira eliminated built in UHD Blu-ray and his answer to OTA & cable seemed to not eliminate that possibility but also made is sound like something they weren't actively working on. 

Perhaps he wasn't really talking about hardware and the "much more" will be mostly software related. If that is the case I fall back to a cable only 6 tuner 3TB Bolt. If the drive is 2.5 or 3.5 will depend on what cable partners indicate they want. Of course I would love it to be 6 tuner OTA or Cable but until we see someone making a 6 tuner combo OTA/cable tuner setup for TiVo to buy that is impossible.


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## BigJimOutlaw

This would be highly speculative, but if Tivo and Comcast iron out their downloadable security plan they're working on independently from the DSTAC process, there's no reason for a 6 tuner limit, at least for Comcast customers. They could drop in more tuners for companies who license the new security.

I'm not predicting it, but it's a thing.


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## innocentfreak

Could we also see a further envisioning of the Mega?

Maybe make the Plus model 6 tuner with 3TB and a Pro with 12 tuners, requiring two CableCARDs, and 6 or 8TB.

Personally I would want a minimum of 6 tuners and a minimum of 3TB. I definitely would prefer more space. If it wasn't for the 6 tuner limitation I would agree that something with 8 tuners would be nice. 12 would be overkill for me.


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## jrtroo

I'm hoping they make it easier to add your own drive. Perhaps they will add to user upgradable driver offerings, so they can offer one model and accessories to let folks go nuts with the storage.


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## thefisch

bigger form factor, black color, 6 tuners, storage starting at 3TB with a 6TB option, and a fully enabled stream.


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## trip1eX

The thing will be $1500. And is going to be a version of the Tivo Mega for the enthusiast Tivo user.


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## HeadsUp7Up

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Nothing super fancy or outrageous.
> . They'll be at a point where the hardware will let them do some interesting things if they want to, like show all tuners on the screen at once as a fancy tuner-selection trick, or whatever.


Now that would be something that would make me update. I'd love it if it could do something similar to the interface DirecTV has for Sunday Ticket, Denon's Instaprevue, or just regular Picture-In-Picture.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COzu77DWgAAcJ2G.jpg:large

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_o7MFNlUbIA/maxresdefault.jpg


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## gigaguy

I was spoiled by my Sony DHG dvrs I had, so bookmark setting (with Titles) and adjustable buffers would be great to see on a Tivo. Editing recordings would be great but probably not allowed by content owners. Sometimes long awards shows or concerts have only 5-10 min id like to keep.


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## aaronwt

They should incorporate VideReDo in the TiVo.


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## jonw747

jrtroo said:


> I'm hoping they make it easier to add your own drive. Perhaps they will add to user upgradable driver offerings, so they can offer one model and accessories to let folks go nuts with the storage.


A unit with two user installable drive slots would be pretty neat of course with support for advanced format drives, and an option to purchase with no drives pre-installed. The drives should operate independently, or optionally in a mirrored configuration. It should be possible to transfer the contents of one drive to the other. The idea here is that a working but failing drive could be easily transferred to a new drive, and if the mirrored option is used even a dead drive wouldn't stop the unit.

The addition of OTA would be welcome. Can we have our component video outputs back? Or does 4K support squash that?

And yes, a normal rectangular box with metal, good cooling, with a quiet and easily cleanable/replaceable fan.

That would be "Pro"


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## tarheelblue32

jonw747 said:


> Can we have our component video outputs back? Or does 4K support squash that?


They could still put component outputs on it, but obviously the maximum output quality through component would be limited to 1080i.


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## markjrenna

I'm sure the next "Bolt Pro" model will have a no less then 6 tuners and a larger hard drive. 

The new Bolt would probably take on the traditional larger Roamio form as the hard drive would need to be an OEM AV drive. So far the largest 2.5 AV drive is 1TB. Maybe next year a 2.5 2TB AV drive but who knows. Right now a 3.5 3TB AV drive is readily available.


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## randian

jonw747 said:


> The drives should operate independently, or optionally in a mirrored configuration. It should be possible to transfer the contents of one drive to the other. The idea here is that a working but failing drive could be easily transferred to a new drive, and if the mirrored option is used even a dead drive wouldn't stop the unit.


TiVo wants a dead drive to stop the unit, If TiVo didn't stripe the drives it would be possible to transfer copy-once recordings from one TiVo to another. You wouldn't lose them when upgrading to new hardware.


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## randian

markjrenna said:


> Right now a 3.5 3TB AV drive is readily available.


I would hope they go bigger, since 3TB is 3+ year old tech now. They could go the Apple route and cheap out on storage though.


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## andrewket

I'm late to the party here.. Just now learned about the bolt from an email from TiVo. I was looking at it until I discovered it only had 4 tuners. I can't replace my Romario pro with it. 

I sure hope it it streams better. I use the download to my iPad feature a ton as I travel extensively, and it's constantly timing out or slowing down for no reason. It's not the network. Tivo's software quality leaves a lot to be desired.


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## hunter69

So many people are running home NAS, it would make sense to remove all storage from the Bolt Pro (except for a small SSD for the OS) and have it mount an iSCSI drive that can be dynamically sized. With gigabit networking and a little cache, 8 streams should fit nicely. 

This would open up the the possibility (with a bit of work) for multiple TIVO units to point at the same share for additional tuners to be added in the future.


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## randian

hunter69 said:


> So many people are running home NAS, it would make sense to remove all storage from the Bolt Pro (except for a small SSD for the OS) and have it mount an iSCSI drive that can be dynamically sized. With gigabit networking and a little cache, 8 streams should fit nicely.


With settings and recordings on the NAS migrating to new hardware would be easy, even if you have a bunch of non-transferable copy-once recordings. It'll never happen though, it makes too much sense for CableLabs to allow it.

It's why I hated Cox, they set copy-once on everything so I could never upgrade to a new TiVo without losing everything.


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## um3k

hunter69 said:


> So many people are running home NAS, it would make sense to remove all storage from the Bolt Pro...


I think the cable labs certification requires any external storage to have some reasonable protection against people pulling the drive to attempt to transfer recordings. If that's the case, NAS storage is a pipe dream.

IIRC, this is why the extender drives get striped with the internal, it makes recovering any programs from the extender drive impossible.


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## mrizzo80

I'm concerned the Bolt Pro will be cost prohibitive. IIRC, Ira used the term "at least" when describing the number of tuners and storage space. I'm worried they will release an 8 tuner/6TB model that will cost like $800. Combined with the All In BS - that's just too much money.

There is precedent of TiVo releasing hardware that not all MSO's can work with at launch (see: TiVo Roamio). When that was released, weren't there a fair share of people that needed help from TiVo to get the user's MSO to push firmware updates for cable cards and/or Tuning Adapters to support all 6 tuners?


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## ej42137

randian said:


> TiVo wants a dead drive to stop the unit, If TiVo didn't stripe the drives it would be possible to transfer copy-once recordings from one TiVo to another. You wouldn't lose them when upgrading to new hardware.





um3k said:


> I think the cable labs certification requires any external storage to have some reasonable protection against people pulling the drive to attempt to transfer recordings. If that's the case, NAS storage is a pipe dream.
> 
> IIRC, this is why the extender drives get striped with the internal, it makes recovering any programs from the extender drive impossible.


Video stored on the TiVo drive is already protected by encryption that makes the recordings unreadable anywhere except the TiVo which originally recorded it. Even if recordings were segregated to a single drive, you couldn't move that drive to another TiVo and view the recordings, nor move them to a PC and extract them.

Spreading recordings across the main drive and the expander can't be part of any reasonable protection scheme, because TiVos work just fine without any expander, recording everything on a single drive in its default configuration.

I imagine the reason recordings are spread is to balance disk drive usage and wear. But at this remove it's impossible to know what was in the mind of the unnamed TiVo programmer. He's not talking and probably left the company several layoffs ago.


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## Jrr6415sun

don't have high expectations and you won't be disappointed when it is announced.


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## MrSinatra

my bolt pro would come with 8 tuners, a normal flat case, bigger but quieter fans, and a normal desktop HD that is also quieter and at least 4TB.

it would also come with free software to use on my computer to manage the bolt, even remotely, and allow me to view (stream) to the computer and/or DL vids to the computer. (i realize some of this is kinda implemented now via websites, etc)

AND it would support USB 3.0 and esata and allow pretty much any external drive to work with it.

finally, it would support Airplay so i could use it as a renderer (like say an apple tv) and also miracast/dlna/upnp etc.


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## Sasparilla

Hopefully they go for a flat form (no hump), since this is a 4k capable device we need bigger storage options (not less) so they go for standard PC sized hard drives (3.5's). 

Hopefully it'll be easier to get into than the Bolt for hard drive replacement when that inevitable failure occurs.


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## aaronwt

Sasparilla said:


> Hopefully they go for a flat form (no hump), since this is a 4k capable device we need bigger storage options (not less) so they go for standard PC sized hard drives (3.5's).
> 
> Hopefully it'll be easier to get into than the Bolt for hard drive replacement when that inevitable failure occurs.


5TB 2.5 inch drives and 10TB 3.5 inch drives should be coming out soon.

Seagate recently announced 2.5" platter densities of 1TB. Which will also allow 2TB 3.5" densities.

They are suppposed to have a 7mm 2TB, 2.5" drive out soon. With a 5TB 15mm 2.5" and 10TB 3.5" to follow early next year(or late this year). And 12TB 3.5" drives in 2016.


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## atmuscarella

aaronwt said:


> 5TB 2.5 inch drives and 10TB 3.5 inch drives should be coming out soon.
> 
> Seagate recently announced 2.5" platter densities of 1TB. Which will also allow 2TB 3.5" densities.
> 
> They are suppposed to have a 7mm 2TB, 2.5" drive out soon. With a 5TB 15mm 2.5" and 10TB 3.5" to follow early next year(or late this year). And 12TB 3.5" drives in 2016.


10 TB drives are already here and have been for awhile: http://www.hgst.com/products/hard-drives/ultrastar-archive-ha10

Just for referance HGST is a Western Digital company, HGST is effectively WD's server drives (my brother works for them) and they go back to IBM hard drive division (he works in the same place he did when he worked for IBM).


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## HarperVision

aaronwt said:


> 5TB 2.5 inch drives and 10TB 3.5 inch drives should be coming out soon. Seagate recently announced 2.5" platter densities of 1TB. Which will also allow 2TB 3.5" densities. They are suppposed to have a 7mm 2TB, 2.5" drive out soon. With a 5TB 15mm 2.5" and 10TB 3.5" to follow early next year(or late this year). And 12TB 3.5" drives in 2016.


I'm a total novice at this stuff, but why aren't they putting all this effort into working on SSD technology to be basically equivalent to disk based drives so they can be used in all applications like DVRs instead of wasting their time on this old, magnetic, spinning technology?


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## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> 10 TB drives are already here and have been for awhile: http://www.hgst.com/products/hard-drives/ultrastar-archive-ha10
> 
> Just for referance HGST is a Western Digital company, HGST is effectively WD's server drives (my brother works for them) and they go back to IBM hard drive division (he works in the same place he did when he worked for IBM).


I'm talking about normal 10TB and 12TB drives. Not exotic ones that are hermetically sealed and filled with Helium. Like those HGST drives are. WD/HGST seem to be behind the tech that Seagate/Samsung is using.


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## series5orpremier

Inside a larger box it will be the current Bolt with an extra six cable only tuners and cable card slot. That's all. Ten tuners configurable as either all cable (with use of two cable cards) or six cable/4 OTA with use of one cable card, or 4 OTA with the use of no cablecards. Since reported HD hours for a 3TB Roamio = reported HD hours for a 4TB Bolt, it will come with a 4TB 3.5 inch hard drive.

(As simple an incremental change as possible while remaining consistent with Ira's statements. However, don't hold your breath over more tuners and memory because he's a marketing guy and not an engineer.)


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## atmuscarella

aaronwt said:


> I'm talking about normal 10TB and 12TB drives. Not exotic ones that are hermetically sealed and filled with Helium. Like those HGST drives are. WD/HGST seem to be behind the tech that Seagate/Samsung is using.


Ya nothing none of us are ever going to use, I don't know much about the tech but when I saw HGST had a 10TB drive I thought it was a safe assumption that size would get to consumer grade fairly soon, guess we will see how soon.


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## atmuscarella

HarperVision said:


> I'm a total novice at this stuff, but why aren't they putting all this effort into working on SSD technology to be basically equivalent to disk based drives so they can be used in all applications like DVRs instead of wasting their time on this old, magnetic, spinning technology?


I am sure plenty of companies are spending money on solid state research, but when it comes to an actually high capacity hard drive is still comes down to $$s and large capacity spinning disks are still allot cheaper than solid state. For many applications (like in TiVo's) speed isn't really a factor, but cost is.


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## HarperVision

atmuscarella said:


> I am sure plenty of companies are spending money on solid state research, but when it comes to an actually high capacity hard drive is still comes down to $$s and large capacity spinning disks are still allot cheaper than solid state. For many applications (like in TiVo's) speed isn't really a factor, but cost is.


I totally understand that, but what I'm saying is, why waste resources on these old technologies now when it, in my opinion anyway, would seem more beneficial to let this tech stand as it is and put all the resources into SSDs to get that to market cheaper and faster, like you say.

It would be like continuing to develop NTSC when the ATSC standard was ratified.


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## Jonathan_S

HarperVision said:


> I totally understand that, but what I'm saying is, why waste resources on these old technologies now when it, in my opinion anyway, would seem more beneficial to let this tech stand as it is and put all the resources into SSDs to get that to market cheaper and faster, like you say.
> 
> It would be like continuing to develop NTSC when the ATSC standard was ratified.


Is it really a waste of resources to develop the older tech when the crossover point for cost per storage (or even storage per drive) wouldn't be for several drive generations? 
That's additional years worth of of improved spinning magnetic disks that they can sell before SSDs hope to catch up; which should more than repay the development costs to continue to improve them).

And its unlikely that it's the same research teams working on SSDs and Magnetic storage. The technology is so different that it doesn't seem like you could effectively reassign your spinning disk teams to SSDs -- not and get significant contributions from them. So if reassigning the magnetic storage specialists to SSD won't speed up SSD development, and improved magnetic disks are still a good profit center, why would you shut down the R&D now?


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## HarperVision

Jonathan_S said:


> *It is really* a waste of resources to develop the older tech when the crossover point for cost per storage (or even storage per drive) wouldn't be for several drive generations? That's additional years worth of of improved spinning magnetic disks that they can sell before SSDs hope to catch up; which should more than repay the development costs to continue to improve them).
> 
> And its unlikely that it's the same research teams working on SSDs and Magnetic storage. The technology is so different that it doesn't seem like you could effectively reassign your spinning disk teams to SSDs -- not and get significant contributions from them. So if reassigning the magnetic storage specialists to SSD won't speed up SSD development, and improved magnetic disks are still a good profit center, why would you shut down the R&D now?


Do you mean..."It _isn't_ really..."?


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## manhole

I just hope any pro version has OTA tuners this time around. I had to buy a Roamio Basic because the Plus/Pro Roamios didn't have OTA.


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## trip1eX

HarperVision said:


> I totally understand that, but what I'm saying is, why waste resources on these old technologies now when it, in my opinion anyway, would seem more beneficial to let this tech stand as it is and put all the resources into SSDs to get that to market cheaper and faster, like you say.
> 
> It would be like continuing to develop NTSC when the ATSC standard was ratified.


CAuse hds still have advantages and make money and throwing more resources and more people on SSDs doesn't mean the tech improves any faster.

Also the same people making SSDs aren't necessarily the same people making hard drives. The tech is quite a bit different. Memory companies like Samsung and Crucial are some of the bigger SSD players. The big hd companies like WD and Seagate are not big players if at all in the SSD space.

And I'd guess the money invested in hd tech has lessened or changed direction in the past few years to accomodate for the rise of the SSD.


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## HarperVision

trip1eX said:


> CAuse hds still have advantages and make money and *throwing more resources and more people on SSDs doesn't mean the tech improves any faster. *
> 
> Also the same people making SSDs aren't necessarily the same people making hard drives. The tech is quite a bit different.
> 
> Memory companies like Samsung and Crucial are some of the bigger SSD players. The big hd companies like WD and Seagate are not big players if at all in the SSD space. And I'd guess the money invested in hd tech has lessened or changed direction in the past few years to accomodate for the rise of the SSD.


I can agree, but the *bolded* part doesn't make any sense to me.


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## zerdian1

So far, TiVo is now constrained on two fronts at this moment in time.
While my desire is that TiVo Bolt Pro have 8 Tuners and 8TB, this will probably not happen.

TUNERS: TiVo is limited to what the Cable companies are offering.
Most like Comcast only offer 6 Tuner Cable Cards. 
They are highly unlikely to increase that as Comcast and other Cable companies have been using these 6 tuner cable cards for a decade and probably will not change. Their own DVRs have no cable cards so there is no reason for them to change.
One way to get more tuners is to use Multiple Cable Cards, but the Cable companies will probably charge for multiple devices driven by cable cards.

STORAGE: There is a reliable 2TB 2.5" laptop sized drive that WeaKnees uses in their upgraded storage. That is the current limitation. Assuming the Box stays the same size and style as the Bolt Basic and the Bolt Plus.
TiVo has indicated that they will not come out with a Bolt Pro until it can equal or exceed the current Roamio Pro Capabilities.

TiVo BOLT PRO: 6 TUNERS AND 2TB.
This will be upgradable to 3TB with 1TB expansion drive.


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## aaronwt

Tens of millions of cable company STBs have cable cards in them. Although this requirement either just ended or is getting ready to end soon. For instance the Comcast X1 has a cable card.


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## zerdian1

Comcast tech says they do not use a cable card in their X1 but have the functional equivalent circuitry.



aaronwt said:


> Tens of millions of cable company STBs have cable cards in them. Although this requirement either just ended or is getting ready to end soon. For instance the Comcast X1 has a cable card.


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## HarperVision

Then they're against the FCC Mandate because it's supposed to have "separable security", i.e. - a cablecard. The X1 was designed before STELAR was enacted, so must still comply with original law.


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## aaronwt

zerdian1 said:


> Comcast tech says they do not use a cable card in their X1 but have the functional equivalent circuitry.


The Comcast tech is wrong. The X1 has a cable card inside. But like other Cable company STBs the cable cards are already activated. The tech doesn't need to do anything with it.


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## Jonathan_S

HarperVision said:


> Do you mean..."It _isn't_ really..."?


I actually meant "Is it", as that long sentence ended in a question mark.


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## jonw747

aaronwt said:


> I'm talking about normal 10TB and 12TB drives. Not exotic ones that are hermetically sealed and filled with Helium. Like those HGST drives are. WD/HGST seem to be behind the tech that Seagate/Samsung is using.


I'm not sure "behind" is the correct term, if you're referring to the "archive" drives. They have some pretty wonky behavior, and you guys who are using them with the Bolt are basically acting as guinea pigs for that type of drive in this type of application.


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## aaronwt

jonw747 said:


> I'm not sure "behind" is the correct term, if you're referring to the "archive" drives. They have some pretty wonky behavior, and you guys who are using them with the Bolt are basically acting as guinea pigs for that type of drive in this type of application.


The HGST Helium drives are also the SMR(Shingled Magnetic Recording) type.

From the reviews I've seen with the Seagate archive drives, they have worked well in unRAID setups. Even doing multiple parity checks and drive restores. And those operations really tax a drive since the entire drive will be written/read to. But the SMR drives have slower write rates with smaller file sizes. But with a DVR the files sizes should be large so the slower write rates should be less of an issue. And even with smaller file sizes and slower write speeds, you are still talking write rates many times faster than any HD stream.

So far I have not seen any issues with the 4TB drive. It has had no issues keeping up with eight concurrent streams(four HD streams writing, three HD HD streams reading, and one high speed transfer writing)At some point I need to test it with twelve concurrent streams to see if there are issues.

My main concern with the drive is that it is new and in it's first iteration. Firmware 0001. That and I basically have no warranty on the drive since I removed it from the external enclosure. So there is no long term real word data use with it. Only time will tell how it does.

But the last time I used external drives to get access to a newly available drive was in 2007 with the first consumer 1TB drive available. It was a five platter, Hitachi drive and they ran extremely Hot(not to mention expensive). But those drives have been running 24/7/365 since 2007 in my GFs TiVo S3(OLED) boxes. If the 2.5", 4TB drive can make it half that long then I would be extremely happy.

I'll probably wait for the 5TB, 2.5" drive to come out later this year or early 2016 to put in another Bolt. Unless they have a great Black Friday sale on the 4TB ones.


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## pL86

Is simultaneous OTA and cable recording technically difficult to implement or is it a matter of cost? I'm not sure why a feature that is in my Tivo HD that I bought in 2009 is apparently a challenge to bring back to the lineup.


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## innocentfreak

pL86 said:


> Is simultaneous OTA and cable recording technically difficult to implement or is it a matter of cost? I'm not sure why a feature that is in my Tivo HD that I bought in 2009 is apparently a challenge to bring back to the lineup.


Previous no one made 4 tuner chips that could do both and only made 2 tuner chips iirc. I don't believe there has been much advancement in OTA chipsets or at least that was the issue before.


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## trip1eX

HarperVision said:


> I can agree, but the *bolded* part doesn't make any sense to me.


At some point adding more people and money just mucks up everything and nothing gets done any faster. It only cost you more money.


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## HarperVision

trip1eX said:


> At some point adding more people and money just mucks up everything and nothing gets done any faster. It only cost you more money.


Hmmmm, not sure I agree. My experience is that if you throw enough money and resources at an issue it's usually resolved quicker than if you don't. You know what they say about opinions though.........


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## HarperVision

pL86 said:


> Is simultaneous OTA and cable recording technically difficult to implement or is it a matter of cost? I'm not sure why a feature that is in my Tivo HD that I bought in 2009 is apparently a challenge to bring back to the lineup.


They actually do it now with the Roamio base, OTA and Bolt. They just dumb it down for some unknown reason by removing the additional rf coax input and its isolation filters and buffers.


----------



## pL86

HarperVision said:


> They actually do it now with the Roamio base, OTA and Bolt. They just dumb it down for some unknown reason by removing the additional rf coax input and its isolation filters and buffers.


My understanding is that you have to set up the current Roamio or Bolt to record OTA OR cable - you can't record to both OTA AND cable channels at the same time as you can with older Tivo's like the TiVo HD. Or do you mean a setup with both a Roamio OTA unit along with a separate Bolt or other Cablecard-equipped Roamio? But that requires two separate monthly/lifetime fees, two remotes and recording lists to juggle and manage and another free HDMI port on my TV which already has its 4 ports occupied. Unless I misunderstand you, that's not really an equivalent to the integrated simultaneous OTA+cable that TiVo used to have.



innocentfreak said:


> Previous no one made 4 tuner chips that could do both and only made 2 tuner chips iirc. I don't believe there has been much advancement in OTA chipsets or at least that was the issue before.


Thanks for the explanation. I hope TiVo figures out a way to bring concurrent OTA+cable back. Admittedly it's likely a niche feature but I use it all the time. My TiVo HD and DVR Expander is still working which is pretty remarkable given it's been operating continuously for six years but I've long since run out of recording space. I probably should upgrade to a newer unit but I really don't want to give up simultaneous OTA.


----------



## HarperVision

pL86 said:


> My understanding is that you have to set up the current Roamio or Bolt to record OTA OR cable - you can't record to both OTA AND cable channels at the same time as you can with older Tivo's like the TiVo HD. Or do you mean a setup with both a Roamio OTA unit along with a separate Bolt or other Cablecard-equipped Roamio? But that requires two separate monthly/lifetime fees, two remotes and recording lists to juggle and manage and another free HDMI port on my TV which already has its 4 ports occupied. Unless I misunderstand you, that's not really an equivalent to the integrated simultaneous OTA+cable that TiVo used to have. Thanks for the explanation. I hope TiVo figures out a way to bring concurrent OTA+cable back. Admittedly it's likely a niche feature but I use it all the time. My TiVo HD and DVR Expander is still working which is pretty remarkable given it's been operating continuously for six years but I've long since run out of recording space. I probably should upgrade to a newer unit but I really don't want to give up simultaneous OTA.


Yes, you can do cable and OTA simultaneously on the Roamio base, OTA and Bolt. I've done it on each numerous times and have my Bolt setup that way as we speak using ATSC from a modulator and QAM with cablecard and TA. Like I said, the limitation is there's only one rf coax input so if you combine the two signals with a splitter then most likely channels will overlap their frequencies and interfere win each other. My cable co still has analog channels so I use a VHF/UHF diplexer to split the bands and then send my ATSC modulator signal to the VHF leg and cable to the UHF leg. This cuts out the analog cable channels 2-13, but it doesn't matter as we have digital simulcast which automatically tunes to the digital version of the channel if you use a cablecard, box or TA.

You can test this by doing guided setup for antenna and then plug in a cablecard and/or TA and then it'll ask you if you want to also setup for cable. Rerun guided setup, select antenna, it'll say it detected a CC/TA and then go to another screen asking if you want to setup antenna only, or antenna and cable. Select the latter and then it'll do the complete setup for both and integrate them together in the guide, just like the older generations.

My point was, these new boxes do indeed have the capability in them to be able to do both simultaneously, just like the Premiere and HD/S3 lines, TiVo just chose not to fully develop it and offer it as a feature for whatever reason.


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## tarheelblue32

HarperVision said:


> My point was, these new boxes do indeed have the capability in them to be able to do both simultaneously, just like the Premiere and HD/S3 lines, TiVo just chose not to fully develop it and offer it as a feature for whatever reason.


It's interesting that they have left the software capability to do this in place. Maybe they are thinking that they might eventually offer separate RF inputs in a model at some point in the future.


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## trip1eX

tarheelblue32 said:


> It's interesting that they have left the software capability to do this in place. Maybe they are thinking that they might eventually offer separate RF inputs in a model at some point in the future.


Probably same thing that keeps the SD menus in keeps this capability in there.


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## ej42137

HarperVision said:


> Hmmmm, not sure I agree. My experience is that if you throw enough money and resources at an issue it's usually resolved quicker than if you don't. You know what they say about opinions though.........


_The Mythical Man Month_ by Frederick Brooks

For a different opinion on this topic.


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## trip1eX

HarperVision said:


> Hmmmm, not sure I agree. My experience is that if you throw enough money and resources at an issue it's usually resolved quicker than if you don't. You know what they say about opinions though.........


Do you think hiring 10 people to change a light bulb gets it done any faster than one?


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## HarperVision

ej42137 said:


> The Mythical Man Month by Frederick Brooks For a different opinion on this topic.


Thanks I'll have to check that out, if I ever have time.



trip1eX said:


> Do you think hiring 10 people to change a light bulb gets it done any faster than one?


That's a completely different scenario.


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## trip1eX

HarperVision said:


> That's a completely different scenario.


lol. It's not though. IT's the same concept. If you understand why 10 people don't change a lightbulb any faster than you'll understand why merely throwing more money and resources at something doesn't mean it gets done faster.

AFter all what's the development and manufacturer of an SSD but a large series of smaller "change the light bulb" tasks.


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## pL86

HarperVision said:


> My point was, these new boxes do indeed have the capability in them to be able to do both simultaneously, just like the Premiere and HD/S3 lines, TiVo just chose not to fully develop it and offer it as a feature for whatever reason.


Ah, okay, I completely misunderstood your point. I didn't realize the hardware and software are still there.


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## L David Matheny

ej42137 said:


> _The Mythical Man Month_ by Frederick Brooks
> 
> For a different opinion on this topic.


A classic example given for this management fallacy: One woman can have a baby in nine months, but we need a baby in one month, so we'll assign nine women to the project.


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## HarperVision

trip1eX said:


> lol. It's not though. IT's the same concept. If you understand why 10 people don't change a lightbulb any faster than you'll understand why merely throwing more money and resources at something doesn't mean it gets done faster. AFter all what's the development and manufacturer of an SSD but a large series of smaller "change the light bulb" tasks.


So if you had a single mathematical equation to solve it wouldn't increase your odds of solving it faster if you had 500 mathematicians assigned rather than just one?


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## Wattsline

L David Matheny said:


> A classic example given for this management fallacy: One woman can have a baby in nine months, but we need a baby in one month, so we'll assign nine women to the project.


I've always loved this quote but.... If you want nine babies then assigning nine women will get you nine babies in nine months where as one woman would take 81 months! I couldn't resist, SORRY!


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## Jonathan_S

HarperVision said:


> So if you had a single mathematical equation to solve it wouldn't increase your odds of solving it faster if you had 500 mathematicians assigned rather than just one?


Sure, because there's no coordination overhead (except for saying to everyone else "hey guys; you can knock it off we've got the answer" once the first guy solves it).

But most work isn't embarrassingly parallel like that. The need to coordinate the work can end up where even the experienced people are wasting most of their time in meetings or resolving resource access or making sure they don't step on each others toes. (Or fixing the screw-ups that new less experienced people make)

For almost any job there is a continuum from the point where adding some additional people causes an almost immediate improvement, through diminishing returns, to the point where adding people just makes the job take longer.

For another thought experiment take something trivial like lifting a sofa. One guy is going to have a very hard time, add a 2nd and its suddenly much easier. A 3rd or 4th helps; but not as much as the 2nd. But add 10 people, 50 people, 100 people, and they can't all even reach the sofa and you've mostly yelling at them because they're just getting in the way.

With skilled jobs it can be even worse because it can take weeks on the job before the new people are really comfortable and competent. It only makes sense to throw more people on if it's early enough in the job that they'll more than make up the loss of efficiency from bringing them up to speed.


----------



## atmuscarella

HarperVision said:


> So if you had a single mathematical equation to solve it wouldn't increase your odds of solving it faster if you had 500 mathematicians assigned rather than just one?


If we are still talking about spending time/money on the continued development of spinning hard drives versus SSDs. There is a little more too it - take a look at who has the advantage in SSD development and manufacturing. Hint it isn't Seagate and Western Digital, the continued development of spinning disks is critical to both those companies for competitive reasons.


----------



## HarperVision

Jonathan_S said:


> Sure, because there's no coordination overhead (except for saying to everyone else "hey guys; you can knock it off we've got the answer" once the first guy solves it).
> 
> But most work isn't embarrassingly parallel like that. The need to coordinate the work can end up where even the experienced people are wasting most of their time in meetings or resolving resource access or making sure they don't step on each others toes. (Or fixing the screw-ups that new less experienced people make)
> 
> For almost any job there is a continuum from the point where adding some additional people causes an almost immediate improvement, through diminishing returns, to the point where adding people just makes the job take longer.
> 
> For another thought experiment take something trivial like lifting a sofa. One guy is going to have a very hard time, add a 2nd and its suddenly much easier. A 3rd or 4th helps; but not as much as the 2nd. But add 10 people, 50 people, 100 people, and they can't all even reach the sofa and you've mostly yelling at them because they're just getting in the way.
> 
> With skilled jobs it can be even worse because it can take weeks on the job before the new people are really comfortable and competent. It only makes sense to throw more people on if it's early enough in the job that they'll more than make up the loss of efficiency from bringing them up to speed.





atmuscarella said:


> If we are still talking about spending time/money on the continued development of spinning hard drives versus SSDs. There is a little more too it - take a look at who has the advantage in SSD development and manufacturing. Hint it isn't Seagate and Western Digital, the continued development of spinning disks is critical to both those companies for competitive reasons.


OK, whatever. Fair enough. Lets get back to the thread at hand. I still say more money, people and resources 99% of the time results in faster, better more accurate results. Just look at the medical field. e.g. - Just look what happened with AIDS when we all got serious about finding out about it. I wish they would do that with Lyme Disease btw. Also look at that whole "Ice Bucket Challenge". I'm sure all that publicity resulted in more money and resources put forth towards it which in turn will show some sort of benefit to the ALS community in the near future.


----------



## lessd

HarperVision said:


> OK, whatever. Fair enough. Lets get back to the thread at hand. I still say more money, people and resources 99% of the time results in faster, better more accurate results. Just look at the medical field. e.g. - Just look what happened with AIDS when we all got serious about finding out about it. I wish they would do that with Lyme Disease btw. Also look at that whole "Ice Bucket Challenge". I'm sure all that publicity resulted in more money and resources put forth towards it which in turn will show some sort of benefit to the ALS community in the near future.


All depends on the job as has been pointed out, if the job can be broken down to small pieces with each teem working on one of the pieces yes, software broking down to modules can have many people working on each modules, if each is well defined. Look at the Apps for the Iphone, Apple could never have written all of them with the speed they came out.


----------



## atmuscarella

HarperVision said:


> OK, whatever. Fair enough. Lets get back to the thread at hand. I still say more money, people and resources 99% of the time results in faster, better more accurate results. Just look at the medical field. e.g. - Just look what happened with AIDS when we all got serious about finding out about it. I wish they would do that with Lyme Disease btw. Also look at that whole "Ice Bucket Challenge". I'm sure all that publicity resulted in more money and resources put forth towards it which in turn will show some sort of benefit to the ALS community in the near future.


On that question I think you and Jonathan_S are both correct. There is an point where increased team size is counter productive, but that doesn't mean that more teams wouldn't be more productive.

When we are talking about something like the forward development of SSDs the more players fighting for the market the faster development is likely to go. Pretty much chip & memory manufactures have built in advantages and clearly companies like Intel and others interested in speed bottle necks and portability have a vested interest in moving beyond spinning disks. So my guess is there are lots of teams doing SSD development.

That said I really don't think Seagate and WD still investing time/money in spinning disks slows down SSD development as they are not the ones most likely to move it forward.


----------



## mattack

HarperVision said:


> Yes, you can do cable and OTA simultaneously on the Roamio base, OTA and Bolt. I've done it on each numerous times and have my Bolt setup that way as we speak using ATSC from a modulator and QAM with cablecard and TA.


That is a big hack, clearly not the way it's "intended" to be used.


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## tarheelblue32

mattack said:


> That is a big hack, clearly not the way it's "intended" to be used.


I don't think I'd call it a "hack" if you don't actually have to change either the hardware or the software of the TiVo in any way to make it work like this. I'd actually call it a hidden (and probably unintended) feature of the unit.


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## HarperVision

mattack said:


> That is a big hack, clearly not the way it's "intended" to be used.





tarheelblue32 said:


> I don't think I'd call it a "hack" if you don't actually have to change either the hardware or the software of the TiVo in any way to make it work like this. I'd actually call it a hidden (and probably unintended) feature of the unit.


Agreed. You do EXACTLY what you would do with any other TiVo that allows both at the same time. Just plug in a cablecard and/or TA after it's already setup for antenna and then it'll pop up a screen saying it detects them and asking if you want to setup cable TV too. Easy as Pie...not a "hack" at all.


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## atmuscarella

atmuscarella said:


> That said I really don't think Seagate and WD still investing time/money in spinning disks slows down SSD development as they are not the ones most likely to move it forward.


See how fast things change, clearly WD is now moving to be a major player in the SSD competition: http://www.zdnet.com/article/wester...=nl.e589&s_cid=e589&ttag=e589&ftag=TREc64629f


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## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> See how fast things change, clearly WD is now moving to be a major player in the SSD competition: http://www.zdnet.com/article/wester...=nl.e589&s_cid=e589&ttag=e589&ftag=TREc64629f


I don't think they had a choice. They were getting left behind. So buying another company was their only option.


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## steviet

waynomo said:


> 3 TB is plenty for me also, but given there has always been an increase in HD size whenever a new model has been released I would be surprised if they didn't continue with that precedent. Perhaps it makes sense for them to do a plus/pro option of 3 TB or 6 TB.
> 
> If 4k or ultra HD (or whatever you want to call it) broadcast television ever becomes a reality how much more space does a program take up on a HD? (Broadcast would include cable companies, etc. Anything you record to watch later)


I think your hard drive will be dead by the time that happens. Broadcasters don't/can;t even do 1080p right now so jumping to 4K is a way out. Personally I don't think our infrastructure could handle the amount of data to deploy that to the masses.


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## atmuscarella

steviet said:


> I think your hard drive will be dead by the time that happens. Broadcasters don't/can;t even do 1080p right now so jumping to 4K is a way out. Personally I don't think our infrastructure could handle the amount of data to deploy that to the masses.


There is nothing stopping broadcasters (cable, Satellite, or OTA) from broadcasting in 1080p.

Unfortunately the broadcasters have decided that the masses don't really care enough about high quality video to make it worth their effort to provide it.

Right now you get 1080p content via streaming and disks. With blu-ray disks being the best the masses can get. My guess is UHD/4K will be the same.


----------



## L David Matheny

atmuscarella said:


> There is nothing stopping broadcasters (cable, Satellite, or OTA) from broadcasting in 1080p.
> 
> Unfortunately the broadcasters have decided that the masses don't really care enough about high quality video to make it worth their effort to provide it.
> 
> Right now you get 1080p content via streaming and disks. With blu-ray disks being the best the masses can get. My guess is UHD/4K will be the same.


The broadcasters can cite technological reasons. Because of channel bandwidth limitations, wouldn't OTA 1080p broadcasts require H.265 (HEVC) encoding, which current TVs can't handle? It was approved in 2013, then modified in 2014 and 2015. Many TVs out in the field probably don't have even H.264 (MPEG4 AVC) chipsets.

OTOH, most recent TVs should have H.264, and if they can decode broadcasts in that format, 1080p might actually be usable. When guide errors occasionally cause me to record a wrong episode, I sometimes stream. I can stream only SD, but it amazes me how good that can look, considering that my DSL service is only 768kb down and 384kb up. (I'm far from the CO switch.)


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## lessd

atmuscarella said:


> There is nothing stopping broadcasters (cable, Satellite, or OTA) from broadcasting in 1080p.
> 
> Unfortunately the broadcasters have decided that the masses don't really care enough about high quality video to make it worth their effort to provide it.
> 
> Right now you get 1080p content via streaming and disks. With blu-ray disks being the best the masses can get. My guess is UHD/4K will be the same.


I don't think many of you could enter a room with say a 70" 1080p HDTV and tell if the HDTV picture is coming in at 720p or 1080i or 1080p source as all 1080p panels convert to 1080p anyways. I can tell if the picture is in SD without any problem. I have a friend with a new 4K TV and with Netflix at 4K it a good picture but I can tell it a 4k xmission vs a 1080p xmission without being told. Side by side I may be able to tell, but for most people it makes no difference, they will enjoy a 720p picture as much as a 4K picture. With a 4k BD player one may see a difference, can't answer that question now. From what I know the only way to take full advantage of even 1080p is with a BD player as your getting the maximum bit rate into your HDTV.


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## atmuscarella

lessd said:


> I don't think many of you could enter a room with say a 70" 1080p HDTV and tell if the HDTV picture is coming in at 720p or 1080i or 1080p source as all 1080p panels convert to 1080p anyways. I can tell if the picture is in SD without any problem. I have a friend with a new 4K TV and with Netflix at 4K it a good picture but I can tell it a 4k xmission vs a 1080p xmission without being told. Side by side I may be able to tell, but for most people it makes no difference, they will enjoy a 720p picture as much as a 4K picture. With a 4k BD player one may see a difference, can't answer that question now. From what I know the only way to take full advantage of even 1080p is with a BD player as your getting the maximum bit rate into your HDTV.


For 720p/1080i/1080p content the bit rate will effect the picture maybe more than if it is 720p/1080i/1080p. My CW and ABC station broadcast in 720p with low bit rates (CW under 3000MB/hr. & ABC 32-3500MB/hr. sized shows) and those shows pictures are noticeably lower quality than my CBS & NBC stations which are 1080i with 6500+/-MB/hr. sized shows or my FOX which is 720p with 6500+MB/hr. sized shows.

For UHD/4K content I am sure bit rate will also matter, plus it will depend on if HDR & expanded color is being utilized by the content (and can be reproduced by the TV) or not if the UHD/4K content is noticeably different than 720p/1080i/1080p content.


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## lessd

atmuscarella said:


> For 720p/1080i/1080p content the bit rate will effect the picture maybe more than if it is 720p/1080i/1080p. My CW and ABC station broadcast in 720p with low bit rates (CW under 3000MB/hr. & ABC 32-3500MB/hr. sized shows) and those shows pictures are noticeably lower quality than my CBS & NBC stations which are 1080i with 6500+/-MB/hr. sized shows or my FOX which is 720p with 6500+MB/hr. sized shows.
> 
> For UHD/4K content I am sure bit rate will also matter, plus it will depend on if HDR & expanded color is being utilized by the content (and can be reproduced by the TV) or not if the UHD/4K content is noticeably different than 720p/1080i/1080p content.


In the old analog days only one standard existed. Today many people may know what the frame rate is (720p, 1080i, 1080p, 4K) but not the bit rate, and both will change the TV picture quality, on 4k you add another variable, *expanded* *color* and your head will explode, few people will know if their HDTV, 4K or 1080P is giving them the best possible picture except if the source in a BD player.
With many people paying a lot of money for their new HDTV or 4K TV the FCC should demand some standard from the networks that will give people the best TV picture they paid for.


----------



## aaronwt

lessd said:


> In the old analog days only one standard existed. Today many people may know what the frame rate is (720p, 1080i, 1080p, 4K) but not the bit rate, and both will change the TV picture quality, on 4k you add another variable, *expanded* *color* and your head will explode, few people will know if their HDTV, 4K or 1080P is giving them the best possible picture except if the source in a BD player.
> With many people paying a lot of money for their new HDTV or 4K TV the FCC should demand some standard from the networks that will give people the best TV picture they paid for.


Even if they all conformed to some standard, many people have their TVs in torch mode. Which will not be anywhere near the best looking picture their TV can provide.


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## HarperVision

lessd said:


> In the old analog days only one standard existed. *Today many people may know what the frame rate is (720p, 1080i, 1080p, 4K) *but not the bit rate, and both will change the TV picture quality, on 4k you add another variable, expanded color and your head will explode, few people will know if their HDTV, 4K or 1080P is giving them the best possible picture except if the source in a BD player. With many people paying a lot of money for their new HDTV or 4K TV the FCC should demand some standard from the networks that will give people the best TV picture they paid for.


FYI, Those examples you used aren't frame rates, they're resolutions. If you added things like "1080p24, 1080p30, 1080p60, 720p30, etc." then the last number indicates the resolution's frame rate.


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## atmuscarella

L David Matheny said:


> The broadcasters can cite technological reasons. Because of channel bandwidth limitations, wouldn't OTA 1080p broadcasts require H.265 (HEVC) encoding, which current TVs can't handle? It was approved in 2013, then modified in 2014 and 2015. Many TVs out in the field probably don't have even H.264 (MPEG4 AVC) chipsets.
> 
> OTOH, most recent TVs should have H.264, and if they can decode broadcasts in that format, 1080p might actually be usable. When guide errors occasionally cause me to record a wrong episode, I sometimes stream. I can stream only SD, but it amazes me how good that can look, considering that my DSL service is only 768kb down and 384kb up. (I'm far from the CO switch.)


The OTA ATSC standards has included the ability for broadcasters to broadcast 1080p via h.264 since 7/2008 so any device with a built in OTA ATSC tuner build after that should be able to receive/play a 1080p h.264 broadcast. If a broadcaster had done that and dedicated the full bandwidth available for one frequency to it, the picture would/could have been very close to blu-ray quality. The broadcasters simple decided the cost (which would have been fairly high) wasn't justified. I don't know that they were wrong but it sure would be nice if they would use the full bandwidth for 1 HD channel even if they are broadcasting in 720p or 1080i, instead they use part of the bandwidth for SD channels or even worse dump 2 HD channels onto on frequency (ABC & CW are that way in Rochester NY) and really degrade the picture.


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## lessd

HarperVision said:


> FYI, Those examples you used aren't frame rates, they're resolutions. If you added things like "1080p24, 1080p30, 1080p60, 720p30, etc." then the last number indicates the resolution's frame rate.


Your correct but the resolutions also depends on the bit rate, you may get the 1080 lines but how much information is in those lines depends on the bit rate, that is for the most part unknown except if you look at the size of a TiVo recording you can get some idea. Between the proper calibration of your HDTV, 4K or not and the unknown bit rate, and for 4K the unknown color correction mode, few will ever know what the greatest picture they could get on their shiny new HDTV, most will live with what they get and not compline, so why should anyone try to provide the greatest picture OTA or cable. 4K BD seems like it will be the only real answer for the greatest picture with a well calibrated 4K TV.


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## HarperVision

lessd said:


> *Your correct but the resolutions also depends on the bit rate, you may get the 1080 lines but how much information is in those lines depends on the bit rate,* that is for the most part unknown except if you look at the size of a TiVo recording you can get some idea. Between the proper calibration of your HDTV, 4K or not and the unknown bit rate, and for 4K the unknown color correction mode, few will ever know what the greatest picture they could get on their shiny new HDTV, most will live with what they get and not compline, so why should anyone try to provide the greatest picture OTA or cable. 4K BD seems like it will be the only real answer for the greatest picture with a well calibrated 4K TV.


This still isn't relative to frame rate.


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## zerdian1

TiVo said next year for Bolt Pro.
So what might happen.
I think the CableCardLess APP will be ready shortly as TiVo and Comcast have speed it out and are testing prototypes now.
The CableCardLess APP will may break the 6 tuner limit.

If they stay in their present size format they will be limited to 3TB internal drive.

If they change their Box size, they will be in WeaKnees territory and could offer 6TB internal drive.

TiVo does not seem to want to use anything other than the old 1TB Esternal Western Digital eSata drive.

The TiVo 24TB RAID 4K BOLT Mega CableCardLess is an experiment that TiVo still could offer to combine with the unlimited number of tuners and target streaming services with 4K probably still at a target price of $5K.

So I think that the TiVo Bolt Pro will be 6 tuners and 3TB to just replace the current Roamio Pro.

and there will be a high end for Streaming Services:
TiVo Bolt Mega 4K CableCardLess Rack mount that will be 8 tuners and 24TB RAID disk for about $5K.
This will be expandable.


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## series5orpremier

There was a question on the October subscriber survey about if you'd be interested in a 6 tuner 3TB cable DVR. That may be the easiest thing for them to do - put the Bolt processor hardware in a Roamio Pro and call it a day. I was also thinking they could call that a Bolt Plus if they decide to go with an 8 tuner Bolt Pro.


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## FN4NSCR

Bolt pro

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## aaronwt

FN4NSCR said:


> Bolt pro
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


Is there news about it?


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## thyname

Bolt Pro


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## thyname

Sorry, could not resist... 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## RayChuang88

I do think a _Bolt Pro_ model will arrive in early 2017.

It will likely have two versions, one with four tuners and one with six tuners. And will have your choice of 2, 3 and 4 TB internal hard drives plus a enhanced USB 3.1 Type-C port with _Thunderbolt_ connections to connect to external 2, 3 or 4 TB hard drives.

It will look kind of like the Roamio Plus or Pro, but in a white case instead of a black case. Also, you get an option for a external Wi-Fi antenna, just like the old TiVo Series 3 units.


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## tarheelblue32

RayChuang88 said:


> I do think a _Bolt Pro_ model will arrive in early 2017.
> 
> It will likely have two versions, one with four tuners and one with six tuners. And will have your choice of 2, 3 and 4 TB internal hard drives plus a enhanced USB 3.1 Type-C port with _Thunderbolt_ connections to connect to external 2, 3 or 4 TB hard drives.
> 
> It will look kind of like the Roamio Plus or Pro, but in a white case instead of a black case. Also, you get an option for a external Wi-Fi antenna, just like the old TiVo Series 3 units.


I'm all for reasonable speculation, but this is nonsense.


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## atmuscarella

tarheelblue32 said:


> I'm all for reasonable speculation, but this is nonsense.


I would say wish full thinking - except the part about WiFi antennas on Series 3 units (which didn't have WiFi). I am assuming he is talking about WiFi adapters but I have no idea why he would want an external on instead of a built in one like the Bolt already has.


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## tarheelblue32

atmuscarella said:


> I would say wish full thinking - except the part about WiFi antennas on Series 3 units (which didn't have WiFi). I am assuming he is talking about WiFi adapters but I have no idea why he would want an external on instead of a built in one like the Bolt already has.


It's nonsense in that it makes no sense. Why would TiVo make a 4-tuner Bolt Pro? That's what the Bolt is.


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## atmuscarella

tarheelblue32 said:


> It's nonsense in that it makes no sense. Why would TiVo make a 4-tuner Bolt Pro? That's what the Bolt is.


When I first read his post I thought he was referring to the Bolt line, with a re-read it does sound like he may have been talking about a Bolt Pro with only 4 tuners - which as you said doesn't make any sense.


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## rainwater

RayChuang88 said:


> I do think a _Bolt Pro_ model will arrive in early 2017.
> 
> It will likely have two versions, one with four tuners and one with six tuners. And will have your choice of 2, 3 and 4 TB internal hard drives plus a enhanced USB 3.1 Type-C port with _Thunderbolt_ connections to connect to external 2, 3 or 4 TB hard drives.
> 
> It will look kind of like the Roamio Plus or Pro, but in a white case instead of a black case. Also, you get an option for a external Wi-Fi antenna, just like the old TiVo Series 3 units.


TiVo will never make a "Pro" model with 4 tuners. And TiVo will not create a new external WiFi adapter when they have moved to internal ones for several years. Plus, a Pro model will not have choices of hard drive sizes. I can only assume you are joking as pretty much everything you said is nothing that TiVo would do.


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## foghorn2

Everybody Ray Chung tonight!


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## HarperVision

I'm beginning to wonder if there will be a Bolt Pro at all actually:

http://www.fiercecable.com/story/ti...WZllVbitoNkw5Q3MyWWNkM2YxZXh4R0RSUjExK1ZVPSJ9



> .....TiVo is moving to a business model in which it supplies software and services that run on set-tops manufactured by third parties, including Evolution Digital.....
> 
> .....Hardware sales declined by two-thirds year over year, to $7.5 million, with the company saying it continues to "transition" out of the set-top manufacturing business.....


I know that's MSO business, but given that they got rid of a bunch of employees awhile back in their hardware division, I'd say their whole company, including retail, is moving in this direction as well. They always say they want to be a software business after all.


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## tarheelblue32

HarperVision said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if there will be a Bolt Pro at all actually.


There is really no need for one. The Roamio Pro is good enough for 99% of people.


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## CoxInPHX

I believe there will be a Bolt Pro, based on the following points.

MSO partners will want an updated 6 Tuner DVR
Currently the Roamio Pro is only in the TiVo Outlet store
Currently the Roamio Pro does not offer an Annual Plan for $149.99
Then there is this which I have no clue what a Roamio Pro v2 is all about. I get the Bolt v2 w/ the pricing difference, but the Roamio Pro only comes in the $14.99/mo price point. Perhaps just a mistake on the part of Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD840300v2-Digital-Recorder-Streaming/dp/B01DZVGNRY/


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## lessd

tarheelblue32 said:


> There is really no need for one. The Roamio Pro is good enough for 99% of people.


That would be true if 4K cable linier channels never come to pass, TiVo was behind on getting their HD-DVR to market in 2006 (cable cards was most likely the problem) and now TiVo with the Bolt (4K) is many years ahead as few if anybody has any 4K stuff to record on the Bolt, and I don't know if the Bolt can handle recording 4K-HDR correctly.


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## lessd

CoxInPHX said:


> I believe there will be a Bolt Pro, based on the following points.
> 
> MSO partners will want an updated 6 Tuner DVR
> Currently the Roamio Pro is only in the TiVo Outlet store
> Currently the Roamio Pro does not offer an Annual Plan for $149.99
> Then there is this which I have no clue what a Roamio Pro v2 is all about. I get the Bolt v2 w/ the pricing difference, but the Roamio Pro only comes in the $14.99/mo price point. Perhaps just a mistake on the part of Amazon.
> https://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD840300v2-Digital-Recorder-Streaming/dp/B01DZVGNRY/


When purchased directly from the TiVo Web sight the Roamio Pro can have the $14.95/month, the $149.99/year, or a $549.99 All-In plan. The full price with All-in is about $1000 + tax.


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## CoxInPHX

lessd said:


> When purchased directly from the TiVo Web sight the Roamio Pro can have the $14.95/month, the $149.99/year, or a $549.99 All-In plan. The full price with All-in is about $1000 + tax.


You're right, of course.
The plan pricing drop-down does show for me now, It never did before, strange...


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## NashGuy

lessd said:


> When purchased directly from the TiVo Web sight the Roamio Pro can have the $14.95/month, the $149.99/year, or a $549.99 All-In plan. The full price with All-in is about $1000 + tax.


Wow, a thousand bucks. If a Bolt Pro rolls out with All-In, I would imagine the total price would be at least $100 more, at $1100 + tax.

I'm not a cable TV subscriber nor am I a long-time TiVo enthusiast (just having bought my first TiVo a little over a year ago), so there's no way I would ever pay anywhere close to that for a DVR. Which is fine, I'm obviously not the target market.

But among those folks who are the target market (presumably folks who are overrepresented on this forum), I wonder how many are interested in buying a Bolt Pro for $1100 or more at this point in time, given the (possibly overhyped) concerns about TiVo's future direction. I also wonder how well the current Roamio Pro is selling. Would whatever incremental sales/profits that TiVo could gain from a Bolt Pro over the existing Roamio Pro justify bringing it to market?

Given the CFO's recent comments about pulling back from the retail market, I'll be mildly surprised if we see the Bolt Pro this year. It would be nice, though, for big TiVo fans to have the option of buying it if they value UHD streaming.


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## zubinh

I don't see the need for a Bolt Pro anymore. With people buying Smart TV's, there is no longer a need to switch inputs to watch streaming services. Keeping your Roamio Pro or Plus probably makes more sense since it has more tuners. There won't be any 4k broadcast content for years, the infrastructure doesn't exist to support it.

I'll upgrade to a 4K Smart TV this year. But I'm gonna keep my Roamio Plus Lifetime, turn off all streaming functions and just use the smart functions of the TV. The Tivo will be reduced to just a DVR for the 4k TV and I'll use the streaming capabilities of the Mini on the non 4k, non smart TVs.


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## TonyD79

It isn't just the method of switching inputs, the real power is in searching and organizing streaming shows via one pass and a single search mechanism. The apps themselves are horrible for finding and tracking programming. The best is Hulu and it is limited.


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## NashGuy

TonyD79 said:


> It isn't just the method of switching inputs, the real power is in searching and organizing streaming shows via one pass and a single search mechanism. The apps themselves are horrible for finding and tracking programming. The best is Hulu and it is limited.


I agree that universal search and watchlist (i.e. OnePass) across various streaming apps plus traditional TV is, or should be, a killer feature for TiVo. I just wish that TiVo did a better job of keeping streaming titles updated in their database. Wonder if that will get any better (or worse) after changing to Rovi data?

Apart from TiVo, JustWatch has a pretty slick website and app (Android & iOS) that searches across lots of different OTT services and also lets you build a universal watchlist there. I have found, though, that JustWatch is occasionally wrong, like when it told me Oblivion (starring Tom Cruise) is on Hulu but it turned out that the film available on Hulu was Oblivion (starring Elvira).

Of course, that's not nearly as good as having that functionality built into your STB. Maybe JustWatch will bring their app to Android TV and Apple TV soon...


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## lessd

zubinh said:


> I don't see the need for a Bolt Pro anymore. With people buying Smart TV's, there is no longer a need to switch inputs to watch streaming services. Keeping your Roamio Pro or Plus probably makes more sense since it has more tuners. There won't be any 4k broadcast content for years, the infrastructure doesn't exist to support it.
> 
> I'll upgrade to a 4K Smart TV this year. But I'm gonna keep my Roamio Plus Lifetime, turn off all streaming functions and just use the smart functions of the TV. The Tivo will be reduced to just a DVR for the 4k TV and I'll use the streaming capabilities of the Mini on the non 4k, non smart TVs.


If TiVo is going to stay in retail hardware business they will need a replacement for the 6 tuner Roamio, when TiVo runs out of Roamio stock, the Bolt 6 tuner would less expensive to build than another build run of 6 tuner Roamios as the Roamio chips on the MB are many years old now and may be hard to get, as your post above said the Bolt 6 tuner would not be for people with Roamio 6 tuners to upgrade (although some would I guess), but for new customers wanting a new 6 tuner cable card TiVo or customers with an older TiVo to upgrade.


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## TonyD79

NashGuy said:


> I agree that universal search and watchlist (i.e. OnePass) across various streaming apps plus traditional TV is, or should be, a killer feature for TiVo. I just wish that TiVo did a better job of keeping streaming titles updated in their database.


Agreed. I have found that it works fairly reliably, it is just slow. Takes up to a couple of days. But I think that is more the fault of the mechanism, which is the daily download for updating all program data. That has its flaws (as discussed in these forums before) beyond streaming data.



NashGuy said:


> Apart from TiVo, JustWatch has a pretty slick website and app (Android & iOS) that searches across lots of different OTT services and also lets you build a universal watchlist there. I have found, though, that JustWatch is occasionally wrong, like when it told me Oblivion (starring Tom Cruise) is on Hulu but it turned out that the film available on Hulu was Oblivion (starring Elvira).
> 
> Of course, that's not nearly as good as having that functionality built into your STB. Maybe JustWatch will bring their app to Android TV and Apple TV soon...


Yes, there are other sources but one stop shopping is the discriminator for Tivo. Unfortunately, they need more apps to make a real dent. More movie apps like Epix and Showtime and more sports like ESPN and BTN2Go and even the Pac12 app.

I do find I use my Tivo to find things more than my Roku lately but there are things I need to use my Roku for because Tivo does not have them.


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## NashGuy

lessd said:


> If TiVo is going to stay in retail hardware business


Well, that's just it, I guess. It's very questionable at this point whether TiVo will stay in the retail hardware business much longer (at least aside from partnering with an OEM to put out retail products). And I'm skeptical that there are any OEMs out there eager to partner with TiVo to put out a pricey CableCARD-based DVR in 2016. But maybe I'm wrong. And maybe the Bolt Pro is far enough down the development pipeline that TiVo will go ahead and release it themselves come Aug. or Sept. as their final piece of TiVo-branded retail hardware.


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## bootman_head_fi

According to this article the new owners will be out of the hardware business in the near future.

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016...o-company-might-stop-making-its-own-hardware/


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## zubinh

bootman_head_fi said:


> According to this article the new owners will be out of the hardware business in the near future.
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016...o-company-might-stop-making-its-own-hardware/


I would think Tivo has a moral obligation to disclose this to people who are buying a Bolt or Roamio with All in service. The "lifetime" service has a strong possibility of being just a few years. If that is the case, then it should be disclosed and I don't see any mention of it on the website.


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## DevdogAZ

zubinh said:


> I would think Tivo has a moral obligation to disclose this to people who are buying a Bolt or Roamio with All in service. The "lifetime" service has a strong possibility of being just a few years. If that is the case, then it should be disclosed and I don't see any mention of it on the website.


They're not going to stop supporting existing customers. That's not what that means. It simply means that they hope to stop building and selling boxes on their own. They'd rather provide code, licensing, and support to someone else's customers.


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## Dan203

The CEO of Rovi clarified this by saying they're looking to get out of the hardware business themselves, but they're still open to partnering with 3rd party manufacturers to build the hardware. So we could, maybe, see branded TiVo devices in the future. Like the old S1 days when the hardware was made by Philips and Sony.


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## Steve

Dan203 said:


> The CEO of Rovi clarified this by saying they're looking to get out of the hardware business themselves, but they're still open to partnering with 3rd party manufacturers to build the hardware. So we could, maybe, see branded TiVo devices in the future. Like the old S1 days when the hardware was made by Philips and Sony.


Would love to see Oppo build one.


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## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> The CEO of Rovi clarified this by saying they're looking to get out of the hardware business themselves, but they're still open to partnering with 3rd party manufacturers to build the hardware. So we could, maybe, see branded TiVo devices in the future. Like the old S1 days when the hardware was made by Philips and Sony.


Maybe someone could build a UHD Blu-ray player TiVo like Toshiba, Humax, & Pioneer did back in the Series 2/DVD days. Once ATSC 3.0 is settled and I buy a UHD TV I would be interested in one.


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## Dan203

Well whether or not anyone will actually be interested in building a TiVo is another story. Their current plan may be to push the manufacturing off on to someone else, but that's going to hinge on someone actually being interested in doing that.


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## DevdogAZ

TiVo owns the OS and collects the service fees and still can't make money on the sale and support of the TiVo+service, so why would any CE manufacturer be interested in just producing and selling a box when they wouldn't even have the potential benefit of the back end revenue stream from the customer?

And if there were any profit in simply building and selling the boxes, why would TiVo want to get out of that business? Or why wouldn't TiVo want to just contract out the build to a manufacturer and then distribute the boxes on their own as they have been doing for the last 10+ years?


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## lessd

DevdogAZ said:


> TiVo owns the OS and collects the service fees and still can't make money on the sale and support of the TiVo+service, so why would any CE manufacturer be interested in just producing and selling a box when they wouldn't even have the potential benefit of the back end revenue stream from the customer?
> 
> And if there were any profit in simply building and selling the boxes, why would TiVo want to get out of that business? Or why wouldn't TiVo want to just contract out the build to a manufacturer and then distribute the boxes on their own as they have been doing for the last 10+ years?


I don't think we know the cross subsidies (if any) between the hardware and service revenue, but for sure an independent 3rd party that would both make and sell just the TiVo hardware must make a good return on just the hardware, I don't think that is possible, but I can hope I am wrong.


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## Steve

DevdogAZ said:


> TiVo owns the OS and collects the service fees and still can't make money on the sale and support of the TiVo+service, so why would any CE manufacturer be interested in just producing and selling a box when they wouldn't even have the potential benefit of the back end revenue stream from the customer?


We'll probably just pay more for the hardware. IIRC, I paid $800 for my 1999 Phillips Series 1, $400 each for my 2002 Sony Sat-T60s and $1000 each for my 2005 DIRECTV HR10-250s.


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## lessd

Steve said:


> We'll probably just pay more for the hardware. IIRC, I paid $800 for my 1999 Phillips Series 1, $400 each for my 2002 Sony Sat-T60s and $1000 each for my 2005 DIRECTV HR10-250s.


But at those prices + service that type of DVR box would not compete with todays MSOs DVRs. The MSOs had no DVR to offer when the Series 1 TiVo came out in 1999 or so.


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## Steve

lessd said:


> But at those prices + service that type of DVR box would not compete with todays MSOs DVRs. The MSOs had no DVR to offer when the Series 1 TiVo came out in 1999 or so.


Good point. Box price + total service probably shouldn't average more than $20/month, over 36-48 months.


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## atmuscarella

Steve said:


> Good point. Box price + total service probably shouldn't average more than $20/month, over 36-48 months.


That would provide a price ranch of $720 to $960 for a unit with all in/lifetime. The Bolts everyday no discount price with all in is now $750 so it is now in that price ranch - not sure a higher end unit would fall there at release, but should get down to that pretty quick.


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## SCSIRAID

Really hoping for a 'Bolt Pro' in Summer 2016 (which is kinda 'now') to replace my XL4. I really want 6 tuners. Got my wife a 1TB Bolt and she loves it.


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## lessd

SCSIRAID said:


> Really hoping for a 'Bolt Pro' in Summer 2016 (which is kinda 'now') to replace my XL4. I really want 6 tuners. Got my wife a 1TB Bolt and she loves it.


Maybe TiVo will hear your plea


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## SCSIRAID

lessd said:


> Maybe TiVo will hear your plea


Hear it and make me happy or hear it and ignore it?? 

Sure hope its the former.


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## chicagobrownblue

SCSIRAID said:


> Really hoping for a 'Bolt Pro' in Summer 2016 (which is kinda 'now') to replace my XL4. I really want 6 tuners. Got my wife a 1TB Bolt and she loves it.


From your mouth to the tech god's ear. I've reduced my hopes to a black 4-tuner Bolt with the hump. September is more realistic.


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## SCSIRAID

chicagobrownblue said:


> From your mouth to the tech god's ear. I've reduced my hopes to a black 4-tuner Bolt with the hump. September is more realistic.


The Bolt form factor would be ok and black instead of white would also be nice. Really want 6 tuner and 2TB...


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## NashGuy

If TiVo follows through with their plans for a new high-end DVR this year, my guess is that it won't use the Bolt name or form-factor. Maybe just "TiVo Pro". But whatever it's called, I would certainly expect at least 6 tuners and 2 TB hard drive.


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## SCSIRAID

nashguy said:


> if tivo follows through with their plans for a new high-end dvr this year, my guess is that it won't use the bolt name or form-factor. Maybe just "tivo pro". But whatever it's called, i would certainly expect at least 6 tuners and 2 tb hard drive.


take my money!!!!!


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## preilly44

Any new info or rumors?


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## lessd

preilly44 said:


> Any new info or rumors?


As soon as anybody has any information that can be posted on any 6 tuner Bolt it will be posted within minutes.


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## SCSIRAID

lessd said:


> As soon as anybody has any information that can be posted on any 6 tuner Bolt it will be posted within minutes.


My Visa card is ready!!! Just take my money!


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## lessd

SCSIRAID said:


> My Visa card is ready!!! Just take my money!


That may depend on your Visa expiration date


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## HarperVision

SCSIRAID said:


> My Visa card is ready!!! Just take my money!


I see you have that old Miami Dolphins logo as your avatar, so I would've assumed you didn't mind old TiVos as well!


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## mkempa

This buyout doesn't bode well for Tivo box owners. I think there is little chance a hardware manufacturer is going to want step in to design and manufacture hardware, then license the software. This in light of the fact that Tivo could barely get by doing it as an integrated company.

Also, if the new owners aren't interested in making boxes, why would they want to continue to update the software when they can just profit from the patents? Finally, if you are competent engineer at Tivo, why would you stick around?


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## rainwater

mkempa said:


> Also, if the new owners aren't interested in making boxes, why would they want to continue to update the software when they can just profit from the patents?


Most of their major patents expire soon. It is unclear if they will be able to license any of their newer patents for any measurable amount of money. I'm not sure how Rovi can just sit back and collect money that isn't coming.


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## Dan203

I think the main reason Rovi bought TiVo was to get into the MSO supply business. This also gives them an inroad to potentially supplying the EPG data to those MSOs for their own devices, not just the TiVos they supply.


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## lessd

Dan203 said:


> I think the main reason Rovi bought TiVo was to get into the MSO supply business. This also gives them an inroad to potentially supplying the EPG data to those MSOs for their own devices, not just the TiVos they supply.


Once the buyout is done will the new co. get out of the retail hardware business?, much easer to do business with a MSO.


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## NashGuy

lessd said:


> Once the buyout is done will the new co. get out of the retail hardware business?, much easer to do business with a MSO.


We're all wondering that. No one really knows. Over the past year, TiVo has publicly referenced 2016 plans for both a new high-end DVR (i.e. "Bolt Pro") as well as some kind of non-traditional-DVR retail product. (At least those separate comments were broadly interpreted to refer to two different products; I suppose it's possible they were referring to the same thing.) However, nothing definite has ever been announced and I'm not sure if any references to new retail products have been made at all by TiVo since the Rovi merger was announced.

My hunch is that if no new retail products come to market this fall in time for the Christmas shopping season, that means those plans were likely scrapped (just like the Bolt OTA was scrapped last year) and we probably won't ever see any new retail products again from TiVo.

But honestly, who knows? I suppose the next date when we might learn something would be the upcoming quarterly earnings call on 8/31 or 9/1.


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## DigitalDawn

The good news is that TiVo is still showing on the exhibitor list for CEDIA this September. Perhaps we can get some answers from the booth people then. I'll certainly be asking them a bunch of questions.


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## Dominick_7

DigitalDawn said:


> The good news is that TiVo is still showing on the exhibitor list for CEDIA this September. Perhaps we can get some answers from the booth people then. I'll certainly be asking them a bunch of questions.


Any idea on when we might hear some updates?


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## innocentfreak

Thought it was for the 15th


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## SCSIRAID

innocentfreak said:


> Thought it was for the 15th


Bring it on.... My credit card is primed and ready.


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## gregg37

TiVo combines its biggest, fastest DVRs to make the Bolt+
https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/12/tivo-bolt-plus-bigger-blacker/?sr_source=Facebook

Glad I took the lifetime and stuck with my Roamio. This was not worth the wait.


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## SCSIRAID

gregg37 said:


> TiVo combines its biggest, fastest DVRs to make the Bolt+
> https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/12/tivo-bolt-plus-bigger-blacker/?sr_source=Facebook
> 
> Glad I took the lifetime and stuck with my Roamio. This was not worth the wait.


The Bolt kicks my Premier's butt so I guess its time to break out the credit card...


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## aaronwt

gregg37 said:


> TiVo combines its biggest, fastest DVRs to make the Bolt+
> https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/12/tivo-bolt-plus-bigger-blacker/?sr_source=Facebook
> 
> Glad I took the lifetime and stuck with my Roamio. This was not worth the wait.


I wish that would have been released last year. If I get one I need to decide if I put one of my 4TB drives in it or keep the stock 3TB drive.

I certainly like the color. But it just might make more sense for me to keep my two four tuner Bolts with a total of 8TB of storage. I don't really think I can get away with only 3TB of storage in a six tuner box. My Roamio Pro has 5TB of storage.


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## aspexil

We are OTA only here so our Bolt four tuners is more than plenty even with our one Tivo mini. So no need to upgrade with this new model.


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## waynomo

Can someone explain this difference?

"One area where it's not as good is its ability to stream, which is down to 1-2 from the Roamio's four."

What kind of streaming are they talking about? This doesn't have to do with Minis, does it?


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## lessd

waynomo said:


> Can someone explain this difference?
> 
> "One area where it's not as good is its ability to stream, which is down to 1-2 from the Roamio's four."
> 
> What kind of streaming are they talking about? This doesn't have to do with Minis, does it?


Good point for somebody that has say 4 Minis connected to their Roamio Plus/Pro, can they upgrade to the Mini +


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## abovethesink

It can't have anything do with the Minis, can it? I have a Roamio Basic with no stream capabilities and I have always been under the impression that I could get a Mini if wanted. Those two things aren't related, right?


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## thyname

waynomo said:


> Can someone explain this difference?
> 
> "One area where it's not as good is its ability to stream, which is down to 1-2 from the Roamio's four."
> 
> What kind of streaming are they talking about? This doesn't have to do with Minis, does it?


No, this pertains to mobile streaming (such as on iPad). Nothing to do with Minis.

Reinforced by David Zatz:

http://zatznotfunny.com/2016-09/tivo-scales-back-retail-ambitions-bolt-plus/

_No, the streams is related to the transcoding to feed mobile clients (and the beta Fire TV app). Minis get the full MPEG2. At least thats how I read it.
_


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## aaronwt

thyname said:


> No, this pertains to mobile streaming (such as on iPad). Nothing to do with Minis.
> 
> Reinforced by David Zatz:
> 
> http://zatznotfunny.com/2016-09/tivo-scales-back-retail-ambitions-bolt-plus/
> 
> _No, the streams is related to the transcoding to feed mobile clients (and the beta Fire TV app). Minis get the full MPEG2. At least thats how I read it.
> _


This was known last year. The chip that the Bolts use can only handle transcoding two streams at a time. When using a Mini nothing is transcoded., Content is streamed as is.

The Chipset the Bolt+ uses looks identical to the four tuner Bolt. if the spec page is correct. they both have 3GB of memory, 11,000 DMIPS CPU, and both can only handle transcoding two streams.

The Roamio Pro can handle transcoding four steams because it has basically the guts of the stream box inside the Roamio Pro. Which is a dedicated chipset for transcoding. While the Bolts are using the Broadcom built in transcoding capabilities which are limited to two streams.


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## aaronwt

The more I think about it the more Im seriously thinking about getting the Bolt+ and cutting a slot in the enclosure to run a SATA cable through it. Then instead of using an internal 2.5&#8243; hard drive, i would use an external 3.5&#8243; hard drive, And I would use either a 6TB or 8TB WD Red drive.

My two, four tuner Bolts included the first year of service. But the second year is coming up soon which requires that $149 payment for each Bolt. So I could take that extra $150 and put it toward the 3.5&#8243; hard drive and enclosure.

The more i think about it the more I think I might go this route.


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## KenVa

abovethesink said:


> It can't have anything do with the Minis, can it? I have a Roamio Basic with no stream capabilities and I have always been under the impression that I could get a Mini if wanted. Those two things aren't related, right?


Yes you can. That is my exact setup.


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