# Class Action Lawsuit Tivo Premiere



## tanoanian (Nov 1, 2003)

I'm surprised tivo hasn't been sued yet over all the lockups and reboots. Maybe that's what it's going to take to get this thing working?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Maybe because no one has been injured due to a lockup or reboot? Now if a number of units caught fire/exploded causing damages and/or injuries, a class action suit may be appropriate. I haven't heard about such occurrences though...

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-class-action-lawsuit.htm


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

orangeboy said:


> Maybe because no one has been injured due to a lockup or reboot? Now if a number of units caught fire/exploded causing damages and/or injuries, a class action suit may be appropriate.


You don't have to have physical injuries to create a class action lawsuit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_action


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## MikeTerryP (Mar 12, 2004)

So, the solution to dissatisfaction with the Premiere is not to send it back for a refund but to file a class action lawsuit instead? Interesting train of thought.


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## cranbers (Apr 2, 2010)

Wow, that will certainly get someone's attention. I think its funny someone thought you can only file this if someone gets hurt. 

If tivo doesn't offer a replacement or a software fix for their f'd up boxes, then sure. But in this world where you can put out firmware updates over the internet, companies actually bank on we will fix it later. Microsoft did this with vista, Pioneer did it with the Avic f series all in one car stereo's. Now tivo is doing it with the premiere, it seems to be standard practice now days. Even our LCD Tv's do this, welcome to the world of firmware/ software updates and patches. You weren't able to do that before the internet and computer technology. If something was f'd up, it was just that forever. Remember gaming consoles before patches for games? 

Its standard now and im sure it will only get worse. Put out a product before its ready, just to set the market (put it out in time when ever one else does, even if its not done, put out updates to fix the issues, eventually. As long as making money beats out the flak, its worth it. 

But when you are a small company with ONE product, like tivo. You can't do this to yourself, Tivo has got some serious PR issues now, anyone who researches the premiere is going to think its a dog, even in 6 months or a year when all issues have been fixed. The day of the internet, people can communicate these things like we are now.


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## Thuye (Mar 21, 2010)

If there is litigation, please sign me up!


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

HAHAHAHAHAHA this is hilarious!!!

I'm not satisfied w/ my product, let's sue! 

can I do that for a movie I don't like too?


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I agree. Let's sue them. My dog even ate the remote for this box too. It's about time we make Tivo pay for their insolence.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=422869


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

Its called express warrantee , a product must proform as advertised. I dont think Tivo premiere is.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

TiVo's issues are best solved with engineers not lawyers.

That cuts both ways of course.

- Rich


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## cica (Apr 2, 2002)

While Tivo did release this before it was ready, the interaction between the various services necessitates the reliance on software/firmware updates. If Netflix slightly alters its code after the Tivo software is released, then Tivo might have to make changes to address bugs introduced by third parties. Back in the good ol' days, the gaming consoles were a completely closed system, and if proper QA was performed, then it would run for the life of the console. The internet has made software platforms much more fluid and firmware updates are now commonplace.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

tanoanian said:


> I'm surprised tivo hasn't been sued yet over all the lockups and reboots. Maybe that's what it's going to take to get this thing working?


What lockups and reboots? My seven Premieres are fine.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

orangeboy said:


> Maybe because no one has been injured due to a lockup or reboot? Now if a number of units caught fire/exploded causing damages and/or injuries, a class action suit may be appropriate. I haven't heard about such occurrences though...


I have a notice sitting here that I'm due benefits from a class-action lawsuit reward because the manufacturer of my lawnmower misrepresented the horsepower of the engine. They most certainly can be filed even if no 'physical' injury has been sustained by the victim.

That being said, I really don't see anything lawsuit-worthy. It would be one thing if Tivo misrepresented the size of the hard drive, or the type of CPU installed, or the amount of RAM. But that's not the case... If the product simply doesn't work right then you have an available remedy: *send it back*. I could see this evolving into a grey area if Tivo promises the device will eventually be fixed and never delivers the software patch, but we're not there yet.

Our system is still based on the principal of 'let the buyer beware' with only a dash of 'sue the hell out of everyone you can' mixed in.

Best thing you can do is to vote with your wallet. That's what I've been doing. I've held back on my purchasing until I see more proof the product is what I want and considering the alternatives (i.e. Moxi).


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> What lockups and reboots? My seven Premieres are fine.


If you do not have the problem, it does not exist.

In all likelihood, if you placed your in an different configuration and environment they would have similar problems.

Likewise, if you bought 100 TiVos and put them into your house would it change the failures that others experience and they all worked what does it prove? Would 100 TiVo's do the trick 

I suppose your point is that TiVo's are not completely broken. I think we got it. 

- Rich


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Even so.... he may not be having the problem. Who the hell cares.... the point is that the reboot/lockup is not the end of the world. Tivo is working to fix the issues and all this talk about class action lawsuits is completely stupid. 

Tivo is working on fixes and maybe instead of *****ing about it then maybe explaining the different scenarios that cause the reboot/lockup would be helpful to get it fixed.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

magnus said:


> Even so.... he may not be having the problem. Who the hell cares.... the point is that the reboot/lockup is not the end of the world. Tivo is working to fix the issues and all this talk about class action lawsuits is completely stupid.
> 
> Tivo is working on fixes and maybe instead of *****ing about it then maybe explaining the different scenarios that cause the reboot/lockup would be helpful to get it fixed.


Agreed. Engineering and analysis is need not lawyers.
It might be worthwhile for the lockup folks to create a thread to describe their configuration and look for similarities.

Cablecards and Signal strength used to be contributing factors in the HD line.

- Rich


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHA this is hilarious!!!
> 
> I'm not satisfied w/ my product, let's sue!
> 
> can I do that for a movie I don't like too?


I think we should expand it to posts on TCF we don't like.. sue, sue, sue!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

RichB said:


> If you do not have the problem, it does not exist.
> 
> In all likelihood, if you placed your in an different configuration and environment they would have similar problems.
> 
> ...


They are in different environments and configurations. The only constant is HDMI being used and also a UPS.
Otherwise multiple TVs are in use, multiple switches and receivers and then two also go directly to TVs.

They were also all made in January, but between the 10th and the end of the month. So they all aren't from the same batch either.


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## chrispitude (Apr 23, 2005)

Let's spend their money on lawyers, that will really solve the problem.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> They are in different environments and configurations. The only constant is HDMI being used and also a UPS.
> Otherwise multiple TVs are in use, multiple switches and receivers and then two also go directly to TVs.
> 
> They were also all made in January, but between the 10th and the end of the month. So they all aren't from the same batch either.


You use the same service and their Cablecards.

I think you have proved it works at your house which in no way disproves or invalidates anyone else's experience.

I gave my mother-in-law a TiVo HD and went down to Florida to install it with her new FIOS service (about a 2 years ago). It would hang and reboot. FIOS was using S-Cards. They came in cut the signal, changed cards. Still it would hang and reboot. She sent it to me and I have not had any problems with it. It has worked with Comcast S-Cards, M-Cards, and now with FIOS M-Cards.
There have been many software updates as well. Even programs recorded in FL would play fine here in MA.

So it did not work in FL but worked fine in MA.
Does that prove that it must have working fine in Florida? 

- Rich


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

RichB said:


> You use the same service and their Cablecards.
> 
> I think you have proved it works at your house which in no way disproves or invalidates anyone else's experience.
> 
> ...


No they do not all have the same service. Two Premieres are OTA only, two Premieres are FiOS only, and three are FiOS and OTA.

As far as Florida. My first guess would be a power issue. Where I live I get voltage spikes and brownouts on a daily basis. If I did not have all my electronics on UPSs, I would probably have issues with some of them. I've certainly lost some light bulbs to them. And I know some neighbors who have had several DVRs from Comcast and FiOS die from the voltage spikes/brownouts. I know two that got a UPS for their DVRs, and they had no more problems after that.

Power problems can cause a host of issues.


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

I'm not interested in making any lawyers any richer.


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## brianric (Aug 29, 2002)

RichB said:


> You use the same service and their Cablecards.
> 
> I think you have proved it works at your house which in no way disproves or invalidates anyone else's experience.
> 
> ...


Sue Florida.


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## tanoanian (Nov 1, 2003)

Panasonic is in the midst of a class action lawsuit because of the rising black levels in their plasma tvs. It's not much of a stretch for tivo to be sued over fixing their buggy software.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10462551-1.html


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> They are in different environments and configurations. The only constant is HDMI being used and also a UPS.
> Otherwise multiple TVs are in use, multiple switches and receivers and then two also go directly to TVs. They were also all made in January, but between the 10th and the end of the month. So they all aren't from the same batch either.


But they are all in use on the same signal inputs/cable system. They probably all have identical cable cards also. They are also in use by the same (or similar) people, so the same set of features are probably used and not used (and configured similarly).

If anything, your experiences probably help to show that the reboot/freeze problems are more related to the service provider.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> No they do not all have the same service. Two Premieres are OTA only, two Premieres are FiOS only, and three are FiOS and OTA.


You are still using the same provider. Throwing in OTA in the mix doesn't mean much, since I haven't noticed a pattern of complaints relating to people that are OTA only.



> Power problems can cause a host of issues.


Agreed, that is why all my electronics (including my TV, TiVo, computer, network router, and cable modem) are on a UPS.

This is all a matter of collecting information about people who have crashing/freezing problems. It is unfortunate that there doesn't appear to be such effort really being done by the community nor TiVo. What provider? What brand cable card? What cable company? UPS? Type of remote? Time/date? SN? Type of AV connection? Model of TV? Model of amp (if any)? Output setting? Using show transfer? Tuner adapter in use? Channel lineup selected? HDUI or SDUI? Signal level reported by the TiVo? Ambient air temp? Physical location of unit? What software rev level? Etc.

Speculation without enough data is poor generalization. At this point all we really can say is that a lot of people are having freeze/lockup/reboot problems. And it seems like more people do than to not, based on monitoring these forums. But even that last generalization is hard to support, since more people are likely to report problems than those without- so it is not a random sample.


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

aaronwt said:


> What lockups and reboots? My seven Premieres are fine.


That's really nothing to brag about.

Might need to get out of the house a little more.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> No they do not all have the same service. Two Premieres are OTA only, two Premieres are FiOS only, and three are FiOS and OTA.
> 
> As far as Florida. My first guess would be a power issue. Where I live I get voltage spikes and brownouts on a daily basis. If I did not have all my electronics on UPSs, I would probably have issues with some of them. I've certainly lost some light bulbs to them. And I know some neighbors who have had several DVRs from Comcast and FiOS die from the voltage spikes/brownouts. I know two that got a UPS for their DVRs, and they had no more problems after that.
> 
> Power problems can cause a host of issues.


If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

- Rich


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

deandashl said:


> That's really nothing to brag about.
> 
> Might need to get out of the house a little more.


What has seven Premieres got to do with getting out of the house? I've been time shifting my TV watching since 1984. I'm certainly not about to start watching TV in realtime in 2010. Every TV needs at least one DVR. I'm not about to waste 20 minutes of every hour watching commercials.

It sounds like you need to quit wasting time if you are watching TV in  reatime. Personally my time is too valuable to waste doing that. That's 20 more minutes every hour you could be outside instead of watching commericals.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

RichB said:


> If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
> 
> - Rich


The problemn with that statemnet is that power issues do cause alot of problems with electronic devices. This is certainly nothing new. Many times I've seen problems eliminated with peoples devices just by supplying clean power to it.

It's a quick and easy solution to try to see if it solves any issues. If not then move on with the trouble shooting. Of course you should start with the cabling and work your way from there.


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

aaronwt said:


> What has seven Premieres got to do with getting out of the house? I've been time shifting my TV watching since 1984. I'm certainly not about to start watching TV in realtime in 2010. Every TV needs at least one DVR. I'm not about to waste 20 minutes of every hour watching commercials.
> 
> It sounds like you need to quit wasting time if you are watching TV in  reatime. Personally my time is too valuable to waste doing that. That's 20 more minutes every hour you could be outside instead of watching commericals.


You are WAAAY off in left field.

You missed the point; very very BADLY....

You have SEVEN......"7".... DVR's. 

I hope, like, 12 people live in your house or something. Otherwise, first, you have to acknowledge you have a problem.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

deandashl said:


> You are WAAAY off in left field.
> 
> You missed the point; very very BADLY....
> 
> ...


And the point is every TV needs at least one DVR. Multiple TVs equal multiple DVRs. My seven Premieres and two S3s are spread between six TVs. Eventually I'll be down to seven Premieres between five TVs. Everyone I know has three TVs at the very minimum with most having more , some people I know have more than ten TVs.(they have large houses.)

I don't know anyone with 12 people in their family. Although I do have a coworker that has 6 children and his wife. They have over a dozen TVs. One TV in every bedroom, a TV in the kitchen and other rooms in the house.

Even growing up in the 60's and 70's we had a TV in my room, my brothers room, my parents room, the kitchen, the rec room, and one in my Dads work area. So six TVs, but of course no recording device back then. We watched everything  Live.


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## brianric (Aug 29, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> And the point is every TV needs at least one DVR. Multiple TVs equal multiple DVRs. My seven Premieres and two S3s are spread between six TVs. Eventually I'll be down to seven Premieres between five TVs. Everyone I know has three TVs at the very minimum with most having more , some people I know have more than ten TVs.(they have large houses.)
> 
> I don't know anyone with 12 people in their family. Although I do have a coworker that has 6 children and his wife. They have over a dozen TVs. One TV in every bedroom, a TV in the kitchen and other rooms in the house.
> 
> Even growing up in the 60's and 70's we had a TV in my room, my brothers room, my parents room, the kitchen, the rec room, and one in my Dads work area. So six TVs, but of course no recording device back then. We watched everything  Live.


Your parents must have been well off. I was brought up middle class parents, one car, one TV one phone family in the 1960ies.


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> And the point is every TV needs at least one DVR. Multiple TVs equal multiple DVRs. My seven Premieres and two S3s are spread between six TVs. Eventually I'll be down to seven Premieres between five TVs. Everyone I know has three TVs at the very minimum with most having more , some people I know have more than ten TVs.(they have large houses.)
> 
> I don't know anyone with 12 people in their family. Although I do have a coworker that has 6 children and his wife. They have over a dozen TVs. One TV in every bedroom, a TV in the kitchen and other rooms in the house.
> 
> Even growing up in the 60's and 70's we had a TV in my room, my brothers room, my parents room, the kitchen, the rec room, and one in my Dads work area. So six TVs, but of course no recording device back then. We watched everything  Live.


I thought my kids watched too much TV. There is no way I would ever allow a TV in their bedroom. Pretty sure you don't need a TV in almost every room in the house. I've got 2 TVs (both with Tivos of course) and I don't know too many people with more. I do know people with 12+ people in their family but they have either 1 or no TVs at all. My wife is the oldest of 6 kids and they have one TV that usually gets put away during the school year.

It seems like a streaming solution would work better for you. I doubt you need 14-18 tuners and all that space. It seems like an HTPC streaming to extenders would make more sense as it would get rid of all those monthly fees you have. Wow, you must spend a small fortune on electronics/TV with all those TVs, Tivos, and PCs you have in your house. For me buying a $150 blu ray player is a big deal and I've been putting off the purchase for awhile.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> The problem with that statement is that power issues do cause alot of problems with electronic devices. This is certainly nothing new. Many times I've seen problems eliminated with peoples devices just by supplying clean power to it.
> 
> It's a quick and easy solution to try to see if it solves any issues. If not then move on with the trouble shooting. Of course you should start with the cabling and work your way from there.


When you cannot play a recording and it repeatly fails, but other records work fine, I think we do not have a power problem.

It is great to recommend a UPS for a TiVo, however, suggesting that as a fix for users with reboot problems is a stretch. Especially, when there are still users switching back to the SD interface.

However, I feel TiVo has an engineering power problem. 

- Rich


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Not sure why aaronwt has become the topic here. People spend their money where it pleases them. Some people want boats and motorcycles, some people want to be able to sit down and watch TV without having to go to the TV room. 

On the original topic, most lawyers probably wouldn't be interested because the "class" is relatively small. And then there's the question of why a owner didn't take advantage of TiVo's 30 day money back guarantee. Seems like that would throw a wrench into any claim that somone was "stuck" with a non-working device.


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## jmr50 (Dec 27, 2003)

What would be the purpose of such an action? It would be unlikely to compel TiVo to update their product more quickly (if for no other reason than they're already very interested, and getting this in front of a court could take years). It would cost quite a bit of money, which TiVo might get stuck paying. If the goal is simply to drive them out of business, I guess this might work towards it. If one wants any other outcome, this just forces dollars and resources away from working on their product towards paying lots of lawyers. Last class action I got something worth under 3% of my "loss" about 10 years after the fact. Not sure what good this does... unless you're Echostar.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

Hope this never goes to court. The typical resolution of a case like this, assuming TiVo even finds there's a chance they will lose, is that the lawyers get all the money and the class action buyers get a slip of paper which gives them a discount on a future TiVo product. For example, a $100 discount from list price on lifetime support if they buy a new TiVo from TiVo. Or in other words, something essentially worthless. We're all better off not distracting TiVo from putting all their energy into fixing the problem and developing new products, not in preparing their defenses in a reputation damaging legal case which also damages the resale value of all TiVos.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

brianric said:


> Your parents must have been well off. I was brought up middle class parents, one car, one TV one phone family in the 1960ies.


We were middle class too. But my dad worked part time at a TV store(Magnavox) in addition to his government job. Many times people would balk at the $100 to $200 price tag to fix the TVs and not pick them back up. Which is alot now but was astronomical back then. The cost was mostly labor so he would just fix up the TV himself and just pay for the part and bring it home. Either that or he got a big discount on a new TV or game system etc. We had good times with Pong on the Odyssey system in the early 70's.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cranbers said:


> Tivo has got some serious PR issues now, anyone who researches the premiere is going to think its a dog, even in 6 months or a year when all issues have been fixed. The day of the internet, people can communicate these things like we are now.


meh, the same thing happened with the TiVo HD when it came out. The sky was falling and TiVo was doomed, etc... Now the TiVo HD is old news and TiVo chugs along still.

You do need to show damages for a class action lawsuit, they just do not have to be physical in nature. Anyone up for convincing a court that a product with a standard warranty with some units having lockups or reboots (note not all units by a long stretch) has caused the user emotional or monetary damages so outside the norm as to need a special class action. Oh and Good Luck - you will need a lot of it.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> We were middle class too. But my dad worked part time at a TV store(Magnavox) in addition to his government job. Many times people would balk at the $100 to $200 price tag to fix the TVs and not pick them back up. Which is alot now but was astronomical back then. The cost was mostly labor so he would just fix up the TV himself and just pay for the part and bring it home. Either that or he got a big discount on a new TV or game system etc. We had good times with Pong on the Odyssey system in the early 70's.


Nobody on this form should be goaded into having to make this type of response, we don't know aaronwt, he could be living in a one room apartment in a bad part of town and own one TiVo or in a $10,000,000 mansion with 50 TiVos, it's the TiVo problems, solutions, and information we want on this form.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jmr50 said:


> What would be the purpose of such an action? It would be unlikely to compel TiVo to update their product more quickly (if for no other reason than they're already very interested, and getting this in front of a court could take years). It would cost quite a bit of money, which TiVo might get stuck paying. If the goal is simply to drive them out of business, I guess this might work towards it. If one wants any other outcome, this just forces dollars and resources away from working on their product towards paying lots of lawyers. Last class action I got something worth under 3% of my "loss" about 10 years after the fact. Not sure what good this does... unless you're Echostar.


it is just reflective of the problems this very forum is having. a large class feels entitled to a perfect world and thinks that beating on others will get them that perfect world.


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## chrispitude (Apr 23, 2005)

lessd said:


> Nobody on this form should be goated into having to make this type of response...


Nobody in this world should be goated, period.  Now sometimes they are goaded...


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

chrispitude said:


> Nobody in this world should be goated, period.  Now sometimes they are goaded...


Ah, the things that the spell checker just cannot catch. I do it all the time

- Rich


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

lessd said:


> Nobody on this form should be goated into having to make this type of response, we don't know aaronwt, he could be living in a one room apartment in a bad part of town and own one TiVo or in a $10,000,000 mansion with 50 TiVos, it's the TiVo problems, solutions, and information we want on this form.


The reason he gets all of this flack is that in every single TiVo problem thread he has to pop in and reiterate that he has 5,000 TiVo boxes and never has a problem, crash, menu bug or pretty much any other problem that other users are having.

While I believe that he doesn't notice any problems and is enjoying his TiVo experience his experiences are not indicative of problems other users are experiencing.

The other reason he gets crap is that it is never enough for him to say he doesn't have issues, he always has to point out that he has 1,000 TiVo boxes, 20 PS3s, 10 Xbox 360s, that he has 500TB of storage on his massive home network operations center, etc.

It frankly gets tiring after a while. Kind of like going to a Porsche forum and having a member frequently having to point out that he has a 20,000 square foot garage packed with classic cars... after a while no one gives a sh%t and just wants the person to shut the hell up.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> The reason he gets all of this flack is that in every single TiVo problem thread he has to pop in and reiterate that he has 5,000 TiVo boxes and never has a problem, crash, menu bug or pretty much any other problem that other users are having.
> 
> While I believe that he doesn't notice any problems and is enjoying his TiVo experience his experiences are not indicative of problems other users are experiencing.
> 
> ...


That is a little exaggerated don't you think? I certainly don't mention the number of PS3s, 360's. or network storage in everypost. It's rarely broght up although my signature does have the number of TiVos I have.(or are you confusing my TC signature with one I have on another forum?)

maybe you should "shut the hell up"


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> That is a little exaggerated don't you think? I certainly don't mention the number of PS3s, 360's. or network storage in everypost.(or are you confusing my TC signature with one I have on another forum?) although my signature does have the number of TiVos I have.
> 
> maybe you should "shut the hell up"


Just calling it as I see it. I can't read a single thread about the current state of Premiere problems without seeing you pop in and tell us all how your numerous Premiere units are perfect.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> Just calling it as I see it. I can't read a single thread about the current state of Premiere problems without seeing you pop in and tell us all how your numerous Premiere units are perfect.


I never said they were perfect(at least I shouldn't have and if I did then )
And I do wonder why I don't have any issues. Other than being a little sluggish sometimes, like taking a few seconds longer, I don't have these lock up issues. 
I don't know why I just know that I have not had those issues. And my TiVos were manufactured on different weeks. Between Jan 10th and the end of January.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> I never said they were perfect(at least I shouldn't have and if I did then )
> And I do wonder why I don't have any issues. Other than being a little sluggish sometimes, like taking a few seconds longer, I don't have these lock up issues.
> I don't know why I just know that I have not had those issues. And my TiVos were manufactured on different weeks. Between Jan 10th and the end of January.


I have a hard time reconciling what you report with the numerous reports, including YouTube videos of all of the problems and very poor performance.

Maybe you just have a high threshold for gadget pain.

In any event, other users ARE having issues. The fact that you don't believe you are and have a pile of these things doesn't change that.

I diagnose and repair telecom gear (phones, servers, ip networks, etc) for a living. The kiss of death in this line of work is to discount that a subset of users have a problem just because others (even the majority) don't.

There's always something that explains it. Sometimes it's user pain threshold.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> I have a hard time reconciling what you report with the numerous reports, including YouTube videos of all of the problems and very poor performance.
> 
> Maybe you just have a high threshold for gadget pain.
> 
> In any event, other users ARE having issues. The fact that you don't believe you are and have a pile of these things doesn't change that.


I've seen some of the YouTube videos. I've not seen those on my boxes. Maybe my FiOS 35/35 connection helps since the TiVo performance seems to be closely tied to the internet connection. (I also haven't noticed any YouTube problems when using my Premiere. I was playing YouTube videos for an hour on saturday and didin't have any issues during that time)
I guess I need to bring a Premiere to my girlfriends and see how it works on her 1mbs DSL connection.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> I've seen some of the YouTube videos. I've not seen those on my boxes. Maybe my FiOS 35/35 connection helps since the TiVo performance seems to be closely tied to the internet connection. I guess I need to bring a Premiere to my girlfriends and see how it works on her 1mbs DSL connection.


A poll of user internet speed versus performance would be helpful I guess. However, knowing how things like this typically work under the hood (I'm not a programmer but I play one on TV) I have a very hard time believing that the various issues are solved by having a FIOS connection.


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## cranbers (Apr 2, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> And the point is every TV needs at least one DVR. Multiple TVs equal multiple DVRs. My seven Premieres and two S3s are spread between six TVs. Eventually I'll be down to seven Premieres between five TVs. Everyone I know has three TVs at the very minimum with most having more , some people I know have more than ten TVs.(they have large houses.)
> 
> I don't know anyone with 12 people in their family. Although I do have a coworker that has 6 children and his wife. They have over a dozen TVs. One TV in every bedroom, a TV in the kitchen and other rooms in the house.
> 
> Even growing up in the 60's and 70's we had a TV in my room, my brothers room, my parents room, the kitchen, the rec room, and one in my Dads work area. So six TVs, but of course no recording device back then. We watched everything  Live.


I can't even imagine what your combined bill is to watch tv in your house. 9x(lets just say 10 dolalrs on average for each dvr). You spend more on dvr's then I do on my cable bill/dvr's combined.

I am sure you make tivo proud, I for sure would defend them too if over 1200 dollars a year of my hard earned money went to a single company, to record my tv. Which in this day and age can be free with internet access and a web browser. (think hulu, abc, fox.com etc)

I have two tv's, both have tivo's but I upgraded, and kept the other. To dish out thousands of dollars on dvr's so you can skip commercials, weew. all I have to say about that one.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

cranbers said:


> I can't even imagine what your combined bill is to watch tv in your house. 9x(lets just say 10 dolalrs on average for each dvr). You spend more on dvr's then I do on my cable bill/dvr's combined.
> 
> I am sure you make tivo proud, I for sure would defend them too if over 1200 dollars a year of my hard earned money went to a single company, to record my tv. Which in this day and age can be free with internet access and a web browser. (think hulu, abc, fox.com etc)
> 
> I have two tv's, both have tivo's but I upgraded, and kept the other. To dish out thousands of dollars on dvr's so you can skip commercials, weew. all I have to say about that one.


I will say I feel the same way about someone spending a bunch of money on a car or motorcycle. To me it's a waste of money to spend it on a vehicle. I get zero enjoyment from driving and really dislike sports cars and convertibles. I'll take a minivan over a corvette any day.

My total FiOS bill which includes, Internet, TV(including cable cards) and cellular service(including data plan, insurance, etc) is just under $200(inlcuding taxes)(When I had DirecTV, I paid alot more.)
Shoot, two of my coworkers pay more that that each month with Comcast. Which doesn't include their cell service(which costs them at least $100 more a month). But it does include a landline for them.

As far as Tv being free, those service aren't HD and if they are you need a PC for it. I did the HTPC thing with HD content in the early 2000's. I don't want to go back to viewing TV with a PC.


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## cranbers (Apr 2, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> I will say I feel the same way about someone spending a bunch of money on a car or motorcycle. What a waste of money to spend it on a vehicle. I get zero enjoyment from driving.
> 
> My total FiOS bill which includes, Internet, TV(including cable cards) and cellular service(including data plan, insurance, etc) is just under $200(inlcuding taxes)(When I had DirecTV, I paid alot more.)
> Shoot, two of my coworkers pay more that that each month with Comcast. Which doesn't include their cell service(which costs them at least $100 more a month). But it does include a landline for them.


Ah well everyone has to have hobbies and things they like, being a networking/computer nerd, I spend money on gear to get certs, own a HP media smart server etc. I own ipad, mac book, iphone, nice computer with daul 24" screen.

so yeah, I guess if tv's are your thing, they it makes sense.

Thanks for defending your hobby, granted a lot of mine ties directly into improving job skillset. Your's is eh, watching tv. lmao. Unless its to screen shows for revies or movie ideas. Ah but then again, those who buy hot rods, muscle cars etc, most probably don't race (legally) to make a living.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

cranbers said:


> Ah well everyone has to have hobbies and things they like, being a networking/computer nerd, I spend money on gear to get certs, own a HP media smart server etc. I own ipad, mac book, iphone, nice computer with daul 24" screen.
> 
> so yeah, I guess if tv's are your thing, they it makes sense.
> 
> Thanks for defending your hobby, granted a lot of mine ties directly into improving job skillset. Your's is eh, watching tv. lmao. Unless its to screen shows for revies or movie ideas. Ah but then again, those who buy hot rods, muscle cars etc, most probably don't race (legally) to make a living.


PCs/networking are also my hobby/work, which is why the earlier posters reference to 500TB of network storage although in reality it's a tenth of that.

I don't deal with apple products, I've gone decades without owning any Apple hardware. I deal with windows, although I do use intel and AMD chips. I have far too many PCs and networked devices, but it is a hobby.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

cranbers said:


> Ah well everyone has to have hobbies and things they like, being a networking/computer nerd, I spend money on gear to get certs, own a HP media smart server etc. I own ipad, mac book, iphone, nice computer with daul 24" screen.
> 
> so yeah, I guess if tv's are your thing, they it makes sense.
> 
> Thanks for defending your hobby, granted a lot of mine ties directly into improving job skillset. Your's is eh, watching tv. lmao. Unless its to screen shows for revies or movie ideas. Ah but then again, those who buy hot rods, muscle cars etc, most probably don't race (legally) to make a living.


The difference is that for the most part people see someone with a really sweet car or motorcycle and are like "wow that's cool" where as if they see someone watching 7 TVs and 10 TiVos they say "wow, that's lame!". 

j/k!

Can you tell I'm a car/motorcycle guy? haha.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I've never been one to do things because people think they are cool. I do them because I like them.


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## vansmack (Dec 1, 2003)

I hope the next TiVo marketing strategy features aaronwt because everything is perfect in his TiVo world. 

That being said, talk of a class action is a bit premature.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

What was the subject of this Thread ??? aaronwt and his hobbies, or aaronwt watches too much TV. Lets take a poll to find out.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

vansmack said:


> I hope the next TiVo marketing strategy features aaronwt because everything is perfect in his TiVo world.
> 
> That being said, talk of a class action is a bit premature.


Why the heck do people keep saying that I said it was perfect? Nothing is perfect.


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## vansmack (Dec 1, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> What lockups and reboots? My seven Premieres are fine.


Because EVERYTIME somebody complains about something that's happening with THEIR TiVo you post something like the above. We're all happy for you, really we are.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

If it is not so unusual for people to have a cable or sat box at every TV, why do some of you think is is crazy to have a TiVo at every TV? I do have one TV without a TiVo, but that will likely change at some point. The only bad thing I see is the inability for cooperative scheduling. The more DVRs, the more pain in this area.


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

Instead of venting our frustration at other members, how about trying to figure out why for some of us (including me) the Premiere works just fine (never had any reboot or lockup; and the menu speed is just acceptable for me). If anyone knows a sure way of locking their Premiere up, please let me know and I'll do the same. I'll be happy to post a youtube video as well.

To stay on topic: a CAL is just silly IMO


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## dbenrosen (Sep 20, 2003)

Class Action Lawsuits make lawyers rich. They don't help the people in the "class".


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cranbers said:


> I have two tv's, both have tivo's but I upgraded, and kept the other. To dish out thousands of dollars on dvr's so you can skip commercials, weew. all I have to say about that one.


I know people who spend tens of thousands of dollars on cars they will barely take out of their garage let alone drive on a highway. Is there some point in bashing him simply cause he chose to have a bunch of DVR gear?


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## sm8680 (Mar 26, 2010)

I've noticed that on my Premiere TIVO's that use ethernet that the speed is not only faster but I have alot less lock ups. Now the wireless g adapter is a different story it's slower and I do have lockups at times. But I'm going to resolve this with a powerline in the near future.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I'd like for the persons that are saying that it is a problem to at least state what the problem is and when it happens. All this bashing of aaronwt is not helping the situation.



mvnuenen said:


> Instead of venting our frustration at other members, how about trying to figure out why for some of us (including me) the Premiere works just fine (never had any reboot or lockup; and the menu speed is just acceptable for me). If anyone knows a sure way of locking their Premiere up, please let me know and I'll do the same. I'll be happy to post a youtube video as well.
> 
> To stay on topic: a CAL is just silly IMO


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## jaywtivo (Aug 29, 2004)

My brand new Tivo P. has been getting a ton of use over the past week and its been flawless. It's fast compared to what I was used too!


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

mvnuenen said:


> Instead of venting our frustration at other members, how about trying to figure out why for some of us (including me) the Premiere works just fine (never had any reboot or lockup; and the menu speed is just acceptable for me). If anyone knows a sure way of locking their Premiere up, please let me know and I'll do the same. I'll be happy to post a youtube video as well.


Get ready for attacks on your character, your hobbies, your parenting, your posting habits, and whatever else folks can dream up. Reporting a trouble-free experience with your Premiere is simply not acceptable on this forum.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

nrc said:


> Get ready for attacks on your character, your hobbies, your parenting, your posting habits, and whatever else folks can dream up. Reporting a trouble-free experience with your Premiere is simply not acceptable on this forum.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> Just calling it as I see it. I can't read a single thread about the current state of Premiere problems without seeing you pop in and tell us all how your numerous Premiere units are perfect.


+1


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

davezatz said:


> +1


Again, show me where I said anything was perfect.

And if people can ***** and moan about having problems time and time again, why can't a person talk about good experiences with the Premieres?

Besides, you're one to talk with you pushing your Blog everywhere.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

tanoanian said:


> I'm surprised tivo hasn't been sued yet over all the lockups and reboots. Maybe that's what it's going to take to get this thing working?


So let me get this right, a company sells you a product with an unconditional 30 day satisfaction guarantee. You are unhappy with how the product works from day one but you decide to keep it instead of returning it for a full refund. Then you think you should sue them because you are unhappy with how the product works?

You got to be kidding.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

aaronwt,

I just think you could save time by updating your signature.



> I do not have this problem. All of my 7 TiVo premiere's work flawlessly.


  

- Rich


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

RichB said:


> aaronwt,
> 
> I just think you could save time by updating your signature.
> 
> ...


There are probably others like aaronwt (without 7 premieres I am sure) that for whatever reason don't think they have any major problem with the TP/TPXL, perception, Internet connection, and other things may play a roll in this. The problem is that this form should be used to help people (and maybe TiVo itself) to solve problems, confirm problems, help with problems that are operator related, etc. 
If my TPXL say has blue smoke coming from it every Monday, all i want to know is does anybody have the blue smoke problem or do i have to return the hardware, a hundred posts stating that one does not have the Monday blue smoke problem is not helpful, a few that had the problem and solved it by reversing the AC wall plug would be helpful.
At this point I think aaronwt got the message, lets leave him alone and hope he will reduce (not totally eliminate) his *Premiere working great posts*


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

lessd said:


> The problem is that this form should be used to help people (and maybe TiVo itself) to solve problems, confirm problems, help with problems that are operator related, etc.


Sounds good except this thread didn't start by anyone asking for help. Also there is significant value in people knowing that not everyone is having the problem.


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

I appreciate the user of so many TiVos sharing his experience. Where else can one get so much direct experience knowledge from just one user. I mean, here is a guy with several TiVos and if he is not having the issues with any of them that several other people are, it's fascinating. And, I have no reason to believe anyone is lying. It really makes me wonder if some of the issues don't have something to do with the individual installations or manner of use.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> Sounds good except this thread didn't start by anyone asking for help. Also there is significant value in people knowing that not everyone is having the problem.


I said this Form not this Thread, this Thread has gone way off track from the OP that started it.
Of course there is value in people knowing that not everyone is having problems, but most (not all) of the non problem posts are coming from one user, that not as much value after 30+ posts from that user.
I posted once about me trying to replace my great working Series 3 with the TPXL, way too many problems for me to deal with so I put my Series 3 back into service and will wait for TiVos Service pack 3  for the PTXP, I am sure within a year I be back in business with my TPXP as I do want some of the new features but not as much as I don't want the problems I experienced in the way I use and connect this TiVo, YMMV.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

lessd said:


> ...this Thread has gone way off track from the OP that started it.


And givin that the subject is laughable, this thread is considered a free for all.

WooHoo!! 

If the Tivo Premiere had been recieved with excellent reviews, I would have upgraded my Series 2 in a heartbeat.
As it stands now, no thanks.


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## Jonathan316 (Jan 4, 2004)

about the only reason i'd join action against Tivo would be if it guaranteed me a pre-release case of those nifty qwerty remotes that are coming out. aside from that it would be a worthless and silly waste of time, and destructive for evertone but attorneys. 

i've not had to reboot my Premiere once since the 14.1c update, and it also has not locked up one time since then -- just as they said to expect in the Tivo blog. Some technology have bumpy starts. Only makes it more fun.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

+1, I kind of agree on all counts of this post (includes the blog deal).

I still would like for the sue happy people to give specific examples of the problem.



aaronwt said:


> Again, show me where I said anything was perfect.
> 
> And if people can ***** and moan about having problems time and time again, why can't a person talk about good experiences with the Premieres?
> 
> Besides, you're one to talk with you pushing your Blog everywhere.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lessd said:


> If my TPXL say has blue smoke coming from it every Monday, all i want to know is does anybody have the blue smoke problem or do i have to return the hardware, a hundred posts stating that one does not have the Monday blue smoke problem is not helpful, a few that had the problem and solved it by reversing the AC wall plug would be helpful.


both are helpful - if 100 people post they do not have the problem and just a few post they do - then I know to return the box as likely defective - especially if I plugged it in wrong 

what seems to happen with every new release is a group of folks post numerous times they have problems - suddenly everyone thinks the problems are everywhere and the whole model is doomed to abject failure.
Then a poll appears and it shows that actually the opposite is true and most folks just do not bother to keep going to every new thread started on the same problems and reporting that they have no problem and thus putting the correct balance on the thread. Arronwt is simply trying to compensate for that but he then falls into the same trap of posting the same thing dozens of times.

maybe we should get folks to post their Moxi problems here as some way to balance things out


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## cranbers (Apr 2, 2010)

jmpage2 said:


> I have a hard time reconciling what you report with the numerous reports, including YouTube videos of all of the problems and very poor performance.
> 
> Maybe you just have a high threshold for gadget pain.
> 
> ...


I think most of he isues stated here have been resolved, at least for me with 14.4

Regardless, an issue can be big of a deal as you let it. Some people have a high tolerence and patients for things. I mean this is a device the records tv for crying out loud. You deal with the interface so you can watch shows, thats about it. a small portion of your time is spend in it, at least one would hope you have a life.

So point is, for some a lag in the interface is enough to drive you a bit nuts, for others its "what are you talking about? What delay? Who cares of the menus you don't use very often are in hd or not. Who cares about pandora, ill never use it.

People expect a polished quality product, some people are just happy the thing works at all. So maybe its all about expectations, and those who have pride in their work.

I am happy with the performance in the new update, I think the complaint of lock ups and performance issues will stop after everyone has that update. I guess it would be a good idea to post something like bugs in 14.4


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## gamo62 (Oct 12, 2002)

We live in a litigious society. There wouldn't be as many CAL's if we were able to sue the lawyers for taking them!


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## gamo62 (Oct 12, 2002)

spark323 said:


> sinclairrqjhcathrynke0rkggzhang17omgqlh1o75ejvsl


Enough of the spam!!!!


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## LoneWolf15 (Mar 20, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> What lockups and reboots? My seven Premieres are fine.


Yeah, I've never had a lockup or reboot either, and I got my Premiere XL at launch.

I did have some slowness one night when the machine was under heavy CPU load (wanted to watch a recorded program while two were recording) that brought menu speed to a crawl for a little bit, but once we hit play, things were fine.


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## xbr23 (Mar 29, 2010)

count me as another happy camper. i bought a premier XL on launch day and have been very pleased. sure, i had some issues with re-boots prior to the first software patch but nothing that made me want to return the box. call me crazy but i have used the HDUI since day one, never even tried the SDUI. my box is still running 14.1, haven't received the 14.4 update.


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## lujan (May 24, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> I will say I feel the same way about someone spending a bunch of money on a car or motorcycle. ...


This person has 7 TiVos!!!

I know this is probably not the correct thread but here it goes. I have 5 TVs but only one TiVo connected to the main living room TV via HDMI. The master bedroom TV is also connected to the TiVo via component connection so they are both HD. If I wanted to get another TiVo in the future, would I have to pay for the service twice or does the service work on every TiVo so that you only pay it once regardless of the number of boxes?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

The service is per box, not account.


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## kellyf (Oct 29, 2009)

Your first box cost $129 per year as you well know, the 2nd through 6th box costs $99.00 additional per box, each year.


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