# Game of Thrones "Mockingbird" S4E7 5/18/14



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Fly me to the moon
Let me play among the stars...


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Least surprising episode finish ever!


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Because I don't trust GRRM, I was picturing Lysa pushing Sansa then in a rage Little Finger pushes Lysa.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Loved the bit of directing with Tyrion sitting in the dark and then his face bathed in light as the door opened (to let his salvation, Oberyn, in).

As soon as I saw the light (ha ha), I knew it would be Oberyn coming though that door.

Man, I can't wait for the scene when Oberyn announces he will be Tyrion's champion


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

gossamer88 said:


> This episode shoulda been titled "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like I got it wrong. Oberyn chooses Tyrion. 

I hope it plays out that Oberyn wins. But you never know.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

zordude said:


> Least surprising episode finish ever!


Yeah. We need to stop talking about it here.

The surprises didn't surprise me. We guessed who was going to fight The Mountain.

I think that was kill #3 for Arya and Needle, right?

Littlefinger needs to have the Moon Door filled with concrete. That thing is dangerous.


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## Archangel00 (Aug 25, 2006)

zordude said:


> Least surprising episode ever!


fixed

EVERYTHING was so obvious...

Isn't repeatedly saying "Let her go" about the worst possible choice of words in that situation? LOL


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

The call goes out: The Mountain needs more sparring partners! Hey! Where are you going?


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

"He on your _little_ list?"


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I loved how smug Brienne was toward Pod after it turned out that her announcing they were looking for the Stark girls actually yielded some valuable info.

And I wish I hadn't clicked on gossamer's spoiler in the last thread. That scene with Oberyn and Tyrion would have been so much more satisfying if I didn't know what was coming. 

(And if I weren't looking up actor ages on IMDb. Pedro Pascal's age isn't listed, but he looks younger than Peter Dinklage. And Lena Heady is four years younger than Peter. So it's kind of odd that both Oberyn and Cersei are supposedly so much older than Tyrion that they have very vivid memories of when he was born.)


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Baelish why'd you make me like you for about 5 minutes..


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> And I wish I hadn't clicked on gossamer's spoiler in the last thread. That scene with Oberyn and Tyrion would have been so much more satisfying if I didn't know what was coming.


Boy, am I glad I never click on anything in spoiler tags. While I discussed the possibility in the last thread, I would have absolutely not enjoyed the reveal and outcome as much.

Out of curiosity: did he spell it out or hint at it?

Edit: nevermind. I had read his post before he put it in spoiler tags and promptly forgot all about it. Sometimes, a bad memory is all you need!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Am I crazy or did they change actors on us for The Mountain?


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I think maybe so this Mountain made me think of Alex Karras as Mongo in Blazing Saddles for some reason. "Mongo Like candy"


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Am I crazy or did they change actors on us for The Mountain?


Yes they did, we are on #3 now.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I have a couple of thoughts:

1. Arya has progressed now to killing people who insulted her. She is quickly becoming as remorseless a killer as all the people she hates.

2. I thought the producers/editor/director/whatever really made a huge mistake by finishing up with the scene at the Eyrie instead of the scene in Tyrion's cell. Flip the order of those 2 scenes and finish with Tyrion and the whole episode would have been 10 times more powerful.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I have a couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1. Arya has progressed now to killing people who insulted her. She is quickly becoming as remorseless a killer as all the people she hates.


Well, they couldn't exactly let him go, could they?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Remind me not to tell Arya Stark my name.

At the beginning of the Sansa scenes, I thought to myself "Oh, no. Not another visit to Krazytown." At least it had a good ending. Robin needs to get his little ass flown next.

I thought somehow things would fall in a way that the Hound would end up fighting the Mountain.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I have a couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1. Arya has progressed now to killing people who insulted her. She is quickly becoming as remorseless a killer as all the people she hates.


I don't have a problem with it, she doesn't hate them because they are killers, she hates them because of the specific people they have killed, I don't think there is any hypocrisy there.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I have a couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1. Arya has progressed now to killing people who insulted her. She is quickly becoming as remorseless a killer as all the people she hates.


I don't mind as long as she only kills bad guys. I have no idea on how the guy who bit the Hound got the jump on him. It was out in the open. It's not like those guys were ninjas but suddenly the guy appeared right behind the Hound.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

heySkippy said:


> Well, they couldn't exactly let him go, could they?


Normally, The Hound would have done the deed.



zordude said:


> I don't have a problem with it, she doesn't hate them because they are killers, she hates them because of the specific people they have killed, I don't think there is any hypocrisy there.


That guy had not killed anyone she knows (or anyone, for all she knows!). His sin was that he said if he ever got out of the prison-cart, he would rape her. I'm not saying she's a hypocrite, but she is now killing "any" bad guy or any guy who crosses her. She's getting used to killing and is now as remorseless as all the people she hates, just as Mellisandre said she would.

I think the next progression is for her to kill out of mercy (hmm...just as the Hound did!). All I'm saying is that this character is evolving into the killer she was predicted she would become.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't mind as long as she only kills bad guys. I have no idea on how the guy who bit the Hound got the jump on him. It was out in the open. It's not like those guys were ninjas but suddenly the guy appeared right behind the Hound.


or why, if he were the brave one of the two, he didn't do it with the one sword they had between them!


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Bronn is one of my favorite characters. Loved his scene with Tyrion in the cell.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> (And if I weren't looking up actor ages on IMDb. Pedro Pascal's age isn't listed, but he looks younger than Peter Dinklage. And Lena Heady is four years younger than Peter. So it's kind of odd that both Oberyn and Cersei are supposedly so much older than Tyrion that they have very vivid memories of when he was born.)


Remember Cersei is supposed to be the most beautiful woman in all of Westoros. So blame the young appearance on good genetics. As for Oberyn, he has been to Asshai, a land of dark magics. There is no telling what health and beauty products they use there. 



Anubys said:


> I have a couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1. Arya has progressed now to killing people who insulted her. She is quickly becoming as remorseless a killer as all the people she hates.
> 
> 2. I thought the producers/editor/director/whatever really made a huge mistake by finishing up with the scene at the Eyrie instead of the scene in Tyrion's cell. Flip the order of those 2 scenes and finish with Tyrion and the whole episode would have been 10 times more powerful.


The one who attacked the hound was Biter. His preferred attack method was to bite people. His associate, Rorge, was a horrible human being, murderer, and rapist. No doubt Yoren told Arya of the evils he had committed. She did Westoros a favor.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Remember Cersei is supposed to be the most beautiful woman in all of Westoros.


She is? They've miscast that role with Lena Headley.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I have no idea on how the guy who bit the Hound got the jump on him. It was out in the open. It's not like those guys were ninjas but suddenly the guy appeared right behind the Hound.





Shaunnick said:


> The one who attacked the hound was Biter. His preferred attack method was to bite people.


We have a crossover! Shambling zombies from The Walking Dead somehow get the drop on people in the open.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> She is? They've miscast that role with Lena Headley.


I think it's more a case of she was (one of) the most beautiful. Now she's pushing 40 so it's fading beauty.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> She is? They've miscast that role with Lena Headley.


When your family has enough power, you can just be *declared* the most beautiful.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> The one who attacked the hound was Biter. His preferred attack method was to bite people. His associate, Rorge, was a horrible human being, murderer, and rapist. No doubt Yoren told Arya of the evils he had committed. She did Westoros a favor.


And right in the heart. Arya is a quick learner!


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

I am so tired of Sansa. Not once in the entire series has she done anything interesting.* It's one whiny woe-is-me I'm helpless and make every bad decision possible scene to the next. What I would absolutely love is for her to just say screw it and go full-bore bad guy with Littlefinger.

*I suspect what makes the worse for me is that I watched the entire series in about a week just recently. The last couple of episodes are the only ones I've watched week to week.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Gunnyman said:


> Bronn is one of my favorite characters. Loved his scene with Tyrion in the cell.


Yep, I'm going miss him. I don't see his character going forward after that meeting.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ClutchBrake said:


> I am so tired of Sansa. Not once in the entire series has she done anything interesting.


Yeah, Sansa has always been weak sauce, especially compared to her sister. Which I suspect is the point, but there comes a time when a character has to show some development, and they just don't seem to know what to do with Sansa (taking their cue from Martin, I'd say).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I wonder if there is Brienne/Hound sword fight in our future...


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> I loved how smug Brienne was toward Pod after it turned out that her announcing they were looking for the Stark girls actually yielded some valuable info.
> 
> And I wish I hadn't clicked on gossamer's spoiler in the last thread. That scene with Oberyn and Tyrion would have been so much more satisfying if I didn't know what was coming.
> 
> (And if I weren't looking up actor ages on IMDb. Pedro Pascal's age isn't listed, but he looks younger than Peter Dinklage. And Lena Heady is four years younger than Peter. So it's kind of odd that both Oberyn and Cersei are supposedly so much older than Tyrion that they have very vivid memories of when he was born.)


You live the first 30 years of your life as the hardest partying, drinking, whoring dwarf in the seven kingdoms and see how good you look.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, Sansa has always been weak sauce, especially compared to her sister. Which I suspect is the point, but there comes a time when a character has to show some development, and they just don't seem to know what to do with Sansa (taking their cue from Martin, I'd say).


She's just a stupid girl with stupid dreams who never learns!


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## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

You know nothing Sansa Stark


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

The Hound is afraid of fire this we know. Why didn't Arya heat up some steel to seal the wound. I assume they had something metal besides their swords.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ment said:


> The Hound is afraid of fire this we know. Why didn't Arya heat up some steel to seal the wound. I assume they had something metal besides their swords.


I thought it was strange to try and do it with burning wood. A hot dagger would have been much better, I agree.

OTOH, I don't think it would have mattered. I think it's the outcome that scares him, not the tool. So he's afraid of being burned, not just of fire.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, Sansa has always been weak sauce, especially compared to her sister. Which I suspect is the point, but there comes a time when a character has to show some development, and they just don't seem to know what to do with Sansa (taking their cue from Martin, I'd say).


She's tough enough to go upside somebody's head when they stomp on her snow castles.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Am I the only one who was disappointed when Sansa didn't go flying?


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Rorge and Biter were able to sneak up on Arya and the Hound because they were distracted dealing with the dying guy. Another lesson learned.



allan said:


> Am I the only one who was disappointed when Sansa didn't go flying?


As soon as Lysa saw Littlefinger kiss Sansa, I said to myself "OK, she (Lysa) is dead!"


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

allan said:


> Am I the only one who was disappointed when Sansa didn't go flying?


No. I was really hoping to see her gone. Would have been the best possible development for her character at this point.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> And right in the heart. Arya is a quick learner!


She also learned to wipe her sword on her victim's clothes. I thought that was pretty funny.


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## Supfreak26 (Dec 12, 2003)

I really enjoyed it when Sansa slapped the little brat. Almost redeemed her character. Almost. 

Littlefinger is quickly becoming one of my favorite characters. He's now killed off two of my most hated people. He's on a roll!


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Littlefinger has some splainin' to do. "Lysa got drunk and fell through the big hole in her living room floor. Meet your new boss, Sansa!"


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> And I wish I hadn't clicked on gossamer's spoiler in the last thread. That scene with Oberyn and Tyrion would have been so much more satisfying if I didn't know what was coming.


Same here, though it's really the fault of the producers for having such an obviously spoilerish episode title.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

A thought, am I right in saying that the only people who know Sansa's true identity were Robin and Lysa? Assuming Littlefinger wants to set himself up as Lord of the Vale, with his "niece" at his side, doesn't that mean that Robin is due for some "flight time"?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

tiassa said:


> doesn't that mean that Robin is due for some "flight time"?


I can't imagine Robin is going to last much longer. If nothing else, his food supply has been cut off.

Can someone remind me what authority Littlefinger has over the Vale? Was it solely by appointment of the King? I'm wondering if the people of the Vale are going to support him. He might need to keep Robin around for a while, acting as his 'protector', and then arrange for an 'accident' some time down the line when his rule is established.


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

smbaker said:


> I can't imagine Robin is going to last much longer. If nothing else, his food supply has been cut off. Can someone remind me what authority Littlefinger has over the Vale? Was it solely by appointment of the King? I'm wondering if the people of the Vale are going to support him. He might need to keep Robin around for a while, acting as his 'protector', and then arrange for an 'accident' some time down the line when his rule is established.


He married Lysa, who was ruler of the Vale.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Demandred said:


> He married Lysa, who was ruler of the Vale.


My understanding would be that LF would be in charge until Robin came of age.

Of course, Robin will never come of age...


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Boy, am I glad I never click on anything in spoiler tags. While I discussed the possibility in the last thread, I would have absolutely not enjoyed the reveal and outcome as much.


No spoiler. I think I (and others) speculated how it was going to go with Oberyn Martell and we got it right.



tiassa said:


> Rorge and Biter were able to sneak up on Arya and the Hound because they were distracted dealing with the dying guy. Another lesson learned.


What system of communication are the Lannisters using? The WinterNet?
They get the word that Hound killed 5 guys - and I think the only one left alive was the innkeeper - put a Lannister Fatwa on his head and get immediate results?



> As soon as Lysa saw Littlefinger kiss Sansa, I said to myself "OK, she (Lysa) is dead!"


It occurred to me that Littlefinger knew Lysa was watching.



cheesesteak said:


> Littlefinger has some splainin' to do. "Lysa got drunk and fell through the big hole in her living room floor. Meet your new boss, Sansa!"


The new insight we get is that Littlefinger may truly be motivated by getting revenge for Catlin's murder.



smbaker said:


> I can't imagine Robin is going to last much longer. If nothing else, his food supply has been cut off.
> 
> 
> > Maybe. The punk is Lord of the Vale until he has an unfortunate accident.
> ...


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

MikeAndrews said:


> How about Ser Jorah seeing that Daario went where no man has gone before?


"She's in a good mood this morning!"

I laughed.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

MikeAndrews said:


> How about Ser Jorah seeing that Daario went where no man has gone before?


Ummm . . . . Drogo?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> My understanding would be that LF would be in charge until Robin came of age.
> 
> Of course, Robin will never come of age...


Right, without Robin, Littlefinger is nothing. If Robin dies, it's not Littlefinger who gets the Vale, it's whoever is Robin's heir (which should be Sansa).


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

The look on Jorah's face as Daario walked out smelling like v***** was priceless. And I liked Dany's dress.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Right, without Robin, Littlefinger is nothing. If Robin dies, it's not Littlefinger who gets the Vale, it's whoever is Robin's heir (which should be Sansa).


Assuming that Sansa divorces her husband Tyrion or Tyrion dies and then Sansa marries _her cousin._ Why should she do that now that Lysa is no more?

Besides, maybe Littlefinger really wants Sansa as a substitute Caitlin.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

tiassa said:


> Ummm . . . . Drogo?


"No."


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> No spoiler. I think I (and others) speculated how it was going to go with Oberyn Martell and we got it right.


No, the spoiler I'm talking about was the name of the next episode, which gives away the fact that Oberyn and the Mountain would be the two champions.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Right, without Robin, Littlefinger is nothing. If Robin dies, it's not Littlefinger who gets the Vale, it's whoever is Robin's heir (which should be Sansa).


But can't Tommen at that point (when Robin dies) simply give the Vale to LF? I'm not asking a rhetorical question.

btw: anyone notice Lysa's list of people she "killed"? one of them was her husband but another was her father! are we glossing over the fact that she just confessed to killing her father or am I making a mountain out of a molehill?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> But can't Tommen at that point (when Robin dies) simply give the Vale to LF? I'm not asking a rhetorical question.


Which brings up why Tywin needed Tyrion to marry Sansa to get Winterfell, when there were only a handful of pesky kids to kill off to have a world with no Starks in it, and as far as he knew there were fewer Starks to kill than in reality.


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## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

Anubys said:


> But can't Tommen at that point (when Robin dies) simply give the Vale to LF? I'm not asking a rhetorical question.
> 
> btw: anyone notice Lysa's list of people she "killed"? one of them was her husband but another was her father! are we glossing over the fact that she just confessed to killing her father or am I making a mountain out of a molehill?


The mountain vs the molehill! don't spoil it all!!! 


Spoiler



I think it's the mountain vs the viper, but you know having fun here


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Anubys said:


> btw: anyone notice Lysa's list of people she "killed"? one of them was her husband but another was her father! are we glossing over the fact that she just confessed to killing her father or am I making a mountain out of a molehill?


Thought this all covered in the last EP. Yes she basically started the war cause she wanted some Baelish..


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ment said:


> Thought this all covered in the last EP. Yes she basically started the war cause she wanted some Baelish..


no no no...I know about her husband...but she mentioned HER FATHER...

recall that Robb diverted himself from the war to go to his funeral at Riverrun. This started the whole ball rolling with the Karstarks leaving and the red wedding. What if the bad timing of Cat's father's death was actually Lannister-made and LF acted-upon good timing? did Lysa kill her father to slow down Robb and divert him?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> btw: anyone notice Lysa's list of people she "killed"? one of them was her husband but another was her father! are we glossing over the fact that she just confessed to killing her father or am I making a mountain out of a molehill?


I thought she was saying that out of everyone that has tried to keep her from Littlefinger (her husband, father, and Catelyn) that she endured and remains. I don't think she said she actually killed him. Could be wrong though.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Demandred said:


> He married Lysa, who was ruler of the Vale.


This I know, but that doesn't pass leadership to him any more than Margaery's marriage to Joffrey passed leadership to her. Robin would be first in line to be ruler. Even Baelish and Lysa's hypothetical offspring wouldn't have any claim, as there would be no blood relation to the Arynn family. Though at least an offspring would have more credibility than "_I married Lysa Arynn and she fell down a hole shortly thereafter_".

I'm curious whether there will be open rebellion against Baelish. You'd think the residents of the Vale would be a bit peeved over this. That's assuming he even cares and doesn't leave immediately. I don't think the Vale is nearly as important to him as Winterfell or as seeking revenge against Catelyn's killers.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> I thought she was saying that out of everyone that has tried to keep her from Littlefinger (her husband, father, and Catelyn) that she endured and remains. I don't think she said she actually killed him. Could be wrong though.


I agree with that this is how I also understood it. I was just wondering if the actual meaning is that she killed (or assisted in the killing of) all three. We know she killed her husband (Jon?) but if she also killed her father (see my post above), it would make sense that she would also be indirectly responsible for the dominos that fell and led to the red wedding.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

smbaker said:


> This I know, but that doesn't pass leadership to him any more than Margaery's marriage to Joffrey passed leadership to her. Robin would be first in line to be ruler. Even Baelish and Lysa's hypothetical offspring wouldn't have any claim, as there would be no blood relation to the Arynn family. Though at least an offspring would have more credibility than "_I married Lysa Arynn and she fell down a hole shortly thereafter_".
> 
> I'm curious whether there will be open rebellion against Baelish. You'd think the residents of the Vale would be a bit peeved over this. That's assuming he even cares and doesn't leave immediately. I don't think the Vale is nearly as important to him as Winterfell or as seeking revenge against Catelyn's killers.


Someone like Peyter would have all the ducks lined up. Lysa didn't treat the Lords well. I assume he has all the support he will need and all the deals already in place. This kind of man only shows his hand when it is a forgone conclusion that it's the winning one.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> This kind of man only shows his hand when it is a forgone conclusion that it's the winning one.


Do you believe kissing Sansa while Lysa was watching was a calculated move?

My interpretation was that the kiss was emotionally driven, Lysa seeing it was unintended, Lysa threatening Sansa's life was unexpected, and killing Lysa was a necessity sooner than it would have been otherwise.

I would think a cold calculating Baelish would have waited until producing an offspring, to at least be able to present the illusion of having a valid heir.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

smbaker said:


> Do you believe kissing Sansa while Lysa was watching was a calculated move?
> 
> My interpretation was that the kiss was emotionally driven, Lysa seeing it was unintended, Lysa threatening Sansa's life was unexpected, and killing Lysa was a necessity sooner than it would have been otherwise.
> 
> I would think a cold calculating Baelish would have waited until producing an offspring, to at least be able to present the illusion of having a valid heir.


I don't think having a valid heir to The Vale is anything Baelish cares about. I highly doubt he's going to remain at the Eyrie, just acting as some minor lord. He's after a much bigger prize than that.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

smbaker said:


> Do you believe kissing Sansa while Lysa was watching was a calculated move?
> 
> My interpretation was that the kiss was emotionally driven, Lysa seeing it was unintended, Lysa threatening Sansa's life was unexpected, and killing Lysa was a necessity sooner than it would have been otherwise.
> 
> I would think a cold calculating Baelish would have waited until producing an offspring, to at least be able to present the illusion of having a valid heir.


I think differently. He only acted on it (the kiss) once the next phase was already in motion. He didn't touch Sansa on the trip there. So I looked at it as proof that he could act on his desire for Sansa because Lysa was no longer needed. That was the point when I knew Lysa was as good as dead.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think having a valid heir to The Vale is anything Baelish cares about. I highly doubt he's going to remain at the Eyrie, just acting as some minor lord. He's after a much bigger prize than that.


I had spaced on Jon, not Lyssa, being the lord of the Vale. Sorry. So the heir business is irrelevant; Lyssa's and Littlefinger's offspring would, as said above, have no claim. (On the Vale; they'd be in the line of succession for the Riverlands.)

But being Lord of the Vale isn't a minor thing. It's being one of the seven great lords of the, well, seven kingdoms. Baelish couldn't possibly get even that high, much less higher, on his own.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I had spaced on Jon, not Lyssa, being the lord of the Vale. Sorry. So the heir business is irrelevant; Lyssa's and Littlefinger's offspring would, as said above, have no claim. (On the Vale; they'd be in the line of succession for the Riverlands.)
> 
> But being Lord of the Vale isn't a minor thing. It's being one of the seven great lords of the, well, seven kingdoms. Baelish couldn't possibly get even that high, much less higher, on his own.


While I don't doubt that you are correct with regards to following protocol, I don't think Baelish has any intention of following the rules and gaining what he's after through traditional methods.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> While I don't doubt that you are correct with regards to following protocol, I don't think Baelish has any intention of following the rules and gaining what he's after through traditional methods.


But what more _could _he gain? Except the throne...he's in charge of one of the Seven Kingdoms.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> Which brings up why Tywin needed Tyrion to marry Sansa to get Winterfell, when there were only a handful of pesky kids to kill off to have a world with no Starks in it, and as far as he knew there were fewer Starks to kill than in reality.


Don't forget that the North has always been loyal to the Starks, so having a Stark in Winterfell that is beholden to the Crown is always going to be more desirable from a stability standpoint than having a non-Stark in Winterfell, as the Northmen would be far more likely to be a problem down the road in the latter situation.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Don't forget that the North has always been loyal to the Starks, so having a Stark in Winterfell that is beholden to the Crown is always going to be more desirable from a stability standpoint than having a non-Stark in Winterfell, as the Northmen would be far more likely to be a problem down the road in the latter situation.


And the North has been promised to Bolton, a man who is certainly to be feared. LF will have to plan and proceed very carefully.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I had spaced on Jon, not Lyssa, being the lord of the Vale. Sorry. So the heir business is irrelevant; Lyssa's and Littlefinger's offspring would, as said above, have no claim. (On the Vale; they'd be in the line of succession for the Riverlands.)
> 
> But being Lord of the Vale isn't a minor thing. It's being one of the seven great lords of the, well, seven kingdoms. Baelish couldn't possibly get even that high, much less higher, on his own.


How does Harrenhal rate against the Vale? Because didn't Tywin give that to Baelish already? (Ok, at the moment the castle there is in ruins, and really needs to be torn down and rebuild at a reasonable scale - but how do the associated lands stack up?


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Loved the bit of directing with Tyrion sitting in the dark and then his face bathed in light as the door opened (to let his salvation, Oberyn, in).


I think Anubys was one of the few (I know there were others)who guessed who the champions would be--I assume without spoilers. :up:



MikeAndrews said:


> Littlefinger needs to have the Moon Door filled with concrete. That thing is dangerous.


I don't know--he may have a few more people who need to fly--or Sansa might. And you know Robin doesn't want it filled. 



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Lyssa's and Littlefinger's offspring would, as said above, have no claim. (On the Vale; they'd be in the line of succession for the Riverlands.)
> .


The way people are dropping like flies, being in the line of succession--even a long line--is very promising.

Hanging out with Stannis and his wife is a depressing business, even for the Red Lady. Neither one of them ever smiles or laughs. What adjective did his wife use to describe the daughter? I didn't catch it. Does the Red Lady plan on using her blood for something too?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jonathan_S said:


> How does Harrenhal rate against the Vale? Because didn't Tywin give that to Baelish already? (Ok, at the moment the castle there is in ruins, and really needs to be torn down and rebuild at a reasonable scale - but how do the associated lands stack up?


Harrenhall is a castle. The Vale is one of the seven kingdoms after which the Seven Kingdoms is named.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I have to say that whoever is in charge of the opening credits is falling down on the job. This week they showed the Dreadfort and Bravos, where none of the action took place, and didn't show Dragonstone and the Eyrie, where significant scenes did happen. I suppose it it possible that the scene between the Red Lady and Stannis' wife took placce in Bravos, but it sure looked like Dragonstone.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Harrenhall is a castle. The Vale is one of the seven kingdoms after which the Seven Kingdoms is named.


OK, so the Eyrie is the equivalent of Harrenhall.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tiassa said:


> I have to say that whoever is in charge of the opening credits is falling down on the job. This week they showed the Dreadfort and Bravos, where none of the action took place, and didn't show Dragonstone and the Eyrie, where significant scenes did happen. I suppose it it possible that the scene between the Red Lady and Stannis' wife took placce in Bravos, but it sure looked like Dragonstone.


The opening credits have never matched exactly with the locations in the episode. The Dreadfort has been shown in every opening credits this season, even though there have only been 3-4 episodes that had scenes there. And the last two episodes were the first times this season we didn't see Dragonstone, despite the fact that there were other episodes earlier this season where nothing happened at Dragonstone.

And Winterfell has been shown in every opening credits of the entire series, despite the fact that we haven't seen anything take place there for nearly a full season.


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## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

MikeAndrews said:


> Which brings up why Tywin needed Tyrion to marry Sansa to get Winterfell, when there were only a handful of pesky kids to kill off to have a world with no Starks in it, and as far as he knew there were fewer Starks to kill than in reality.


Tyrion's rule in the North will be easier if he has a Stark wife to parade in front of the Stark bannermen. It will take a little while to figure out that Tyrion is actually a half decent fellow and the potential to be a much better Lord than any of his arrogant House.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MikeAndrews said:


> OK, so the Eyrie is the equivalent of Harrenhall.


More or less. More like Winterfell, the capital of a kingdom. Harrenhall is just a castle.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I see "Winterfell" (smoking ruin that it now is) as the analogue for "The Starks", just like "The Wall" is the analogue for "The Nights Watch" (whether at Castle Black, Craster's or beyond), so I don't have a problem with those.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But what more _could _he gain? Except the throne...he's in charge of one of the Seven Kingdoms.


Well, it's called 'Game of Thrones' for a reason... I assume half the characters have some kind of scheme to sit atop the Iron Throne. Baelish certainly doesn't strike me as one who is going to be satisfied with just the Vale. He wants it all.


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## hairyblue (Feb 25, 2002)

The Mountain. This is his first acting job. Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson is an Icelandic strongman. Wonder if he'll speak in this role. I guess if you look that good, you don't have to speak. He stands 6'9" tall.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Here's a spoiler from last year:

http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2013/09/04/game-of-thrones-recasts-the-mountain-again/


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Why The Games of Thrones loves casting porn stars:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/17/why-game-of-thrones-loves-porn-stars.html


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

h, another thing we guessed. That Tywin's plan all along was to have Jamie inherit his property and get rid of Tyrion. It just took Jamie and Tyrion to figure it out after we did.

"Can you imagine the look on father's face when we both got killed?"


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I'm enjoying the Arya/Hound matchup. Dispite him being on her list, we see the two are starting to bond, with the Hound opening up a little, which we haven't seen before. I've been suspecting this would happen for a while. I think he's starting to emerge as a sort of second father figure for her. Ned taught Arya all of the good things in this world, but now the Hound is teaching her all the bad things about how the world actually works and how to survive.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Supfreak26 said:


> I really enjoyed it when Sansa slapped the little brat. Almost redeemed her character. Almost.


On the other hand, in that scene I though Sansa was being just as much of a brat at Robin (worse actually ,considering she's nearly twice his age).


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

hairyblue said:


> The Mountain. This is his first acting job. Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson is an Icelandic strongman. Wonder if he'll speak in this role. I guess if you look that good, you don't have to speak. He stands 6'9" tall.


He spoke in this episode. He said, "Who am I fighting?" when Cersei came to talk to him.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> I think Anubys was one of the few (I know there were others)who guessed who the champions would be--I assume without spoilers. :up:


I wish I were that smart. Someone else suggested the Mountain. I simply wondered if that would make Oberyn interested. I had also read (and forgot) the spoiler. I'm sure it stayed in the back of my mind, though, so I'm giving myself zero points for this one 



Rob Helmerichs said:


> More or less. More like Winterfell, the capital of a kingdom. Harrenhall is just a castle.


To expand on that, I seem to recall a conversation (maybe between Varys and LF) that made fun of Harrenhall as a pretty cheap prize to offer. It's broken down and its land has no value (or very little value). LF countered by saying land and title still counts and it's just a stepping stone to more.



hairyblue said:


> The Mountain. This is his first acting job. Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson is an Icelandic strongman. Wonder if he'll speak in this role. I guess if you look that good, you don't have to speak. He stands 6'9" tall.


I had assumed he was very short. The way they shot every scene with him, the camera was on the ground and perspective was always altered to make him look tall. Why did they need to do that if he were already almost 7 feet tall, I wonder!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> On the other hand, in that scene I though Sansa was being just as much of a brat at Robin (worse actually, considering she's nearly twice his age).


Yeah, it's kinda like picking on a mentally handicapped child.

Then again, it's kinda like a mentally handicapped child picking on a mentally handicapped child.


----------



## hairyblue (Feb 25, 2002)

You guys are too hard on Sana. All she wanted to do was to have a fairy tale life and then she is forced to be around crazy people all the time. It seems the only person that was kind to her was the imp. And she knows it.

I was wondering if the mountain actor could pull off a British accent while acting. But to be fair, I don't remember the other actors of the mountain speaking that much in the past. Seem like it was fighting grunts and angry sounds. hehe

I didn't know Shea, Sibel Kekilli was a German porn star under the name Dilara. She got outed in 2004 and her family disowned her. I think the acting she's done for the GOT was been very good. Here is the article link.
http://whatculture.com/film/5-actresses-wont-believe-used-porn-stars.php/2

Seems like GOT is very open to hiring a large range of people, Strong men with no acting skills to porn stars. Well, I approve.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Might as well hire porn stars for the sex scenes.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I don't understand the Sansa hate.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

hairyblue said:


> You guys are too hard on Sana.
> 
> I didn't know Shea,


*twitch*


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

MonsterJoe said:


> I don't understand the Sansa hate.


She'd be a lot more interesting if she killed a couple of people like everybody else on this show.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

MonsterJoe said:


> I don't understand the Sansa hate.


For me, its because she hasn't changed. She hasn't toughened up, or gotten smarter, or played the game....she just lets things happen TO her.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

pmyers said:


> For me, its because she hasn't changed. She hasn't toughened up, or gotten smarter, or played the game....she just lets things happen TO her.


^This. I don't really HATE Sansa, not the way I hated Joffrey. I just see her as a hopeless wuss.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

At least she smacked the ugly dumb kid.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Might as well hire porn stars for the sex scenes.


I heard that somewhere.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10112667#post10112667


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

So what "big" things do we have in store that we know of?

1. The Mountain versus Oberyn. MMA fighting at its best!

2. Mance attacking Castle Black.

3. Stannis. Where is he headed? to the Wall or to King's Landing? The Lord of Light lives in fire; which seems to be a really good weapon against the White Walkers, especially if he kills his daughter for her blood. So I'm voting The Wall.

Anything else?


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Is Oberyn supposed to be a good fighter? I don't remember hearing anything about that.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Is Oberyn supposed to be a good fighter? I don't remember hearing anything about that.


I believe he is renown for his fighting prowess. They mentioned something about it in the first episode he was introduced, unless I'm thinking of his brother.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gweempose said:


> I believe he is renown for his fighting prowess. They mentioned something about it in the first episode he was introduced, unless I'm thinking of his brother.


He also travelled a lot...he learned to fight, work with poisons, and magic in his travels.

The magic part is an assumption on my part since he spent 5 years in xyz city (where Varys comes from) and where magic is the name of the game there.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Anubys said:


> He also travelled a lot...he learned to fight, work with poisons, and magic in his travels.


He also learned that eunuchs aren't much fun in bed. All very useful information.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Anubys said:


> He also travelled a lot...he learned to fight, work with poisons, and magic in his travels.
> 
> The magic part is an assumption on my part since he spent 5 years in xyz city (where Varys comes from) and where magic is the name of the game there.


I definitely think his fight with The Mountain will be unlike any we've seen thus far. Poison on the blade or something. He'll have to approach it differently with a guy that big, skilled, and fast.


----------



## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

pmyers said:


> For me, its because she hasn't changed. She hasn't toughened up, or gotten smarter, or played the game....she just lets things happen TO her.


I don't know how much she could change and keep her head. Tyrion would actually be a good mentor but they are so different besides the wide gap in age, she's just a teen after all. I doubt Cersei at age 15 was a master manipulator/schemer. What if GOT went shocking and Sansa goes all in with Baelish.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

That's sort of my point. I think she's handled the majority of everything expertly, considering the complete ruthlessness of it all.

I'd like to see her come in to her own a bit - but I like the character, considering what she expected her life to be like, and what it has become.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

There's no episode this week.  I guess they skipped Memorial weekend last year too, I forgot. The one week that I don't have to wait until I get home from work on Monday to watch. 

The recap is really good. So many good lines that I had already forgotten. Guess it's time to rewatch. :up:


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> There's no episode this week.  I guess they skipped Memorial weekend last year too, I forgot. The one week that I don't have to wait until I get home from work on Monday to watch.


The worst parts of this ep was when it said "in 2 weeks" and "3 more episodes". I didn't even realize it was almost over for the year.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)




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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jakerock said:


> He also learned that eunuchs aren't much fun in bed. All very useful information.


You think that will help him against the Mountain?


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You think that will help him against the Mountain?


You never know what you'll need in a dirty fight.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

"Before they were on Game of Thrones"

That was funny seeing Jason Mamoa in Baywatch. I never realized he was in anything prior to Stargate: Atlantis.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I wonder if our Mountains are getting bigger like our Godzillas?

-smak-


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Is Oberyn supposed to be a good fighter? I don't remember hearing anything about that.


His nickname is the Red Viper, apparently because he's so deadly.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

gweempose said:


> "Before they were on Game of Thrones"
> 
> That was funny seeing Jason Mamoa in Baywatch. I never realized he was in anything prior to Stargate: Atlantis.


I remember him from the North Shore TV show that aired in the mid-00s.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> His nickname is the Red Viper, apparently because he's so deadly.


And the fact that he would volunteer to fight the Mountain suggests either profound capability, or profound delusion. And he doesn't seem delusional to me...


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And the fact that he would volunteer to fight the Mountain suggests either profound capability, or profound delusion. And he doesn't seem delusional to me...


Right. He does have a thirst for vengeance against The Mountain, but there are other ways of getting to him that don't require a public duel. Unless, of course, the thought of a public duel with him don't bother you.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Maybe he believes the saying "the bigger they are the harder they fall".


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

C'Mon. Not even GRRM would have The Mountain win and have us watch Tyrion get beheaded.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

gweempose said:


> "Before they were on Game of Thrones"


They only had a voice for Peter Dinklage -- they could have mentioned is Simon Bar Sinister in the Underdog movie.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

tiassa said:


> They only had a voice for Peter Dinklage -- they could have mentioned is Simon Bar Sinister in the Underdog movie.


Elf.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Trial by combat is a great thing if you're a dwarf or otherwise weak or incapacitated. You screw up and then get some other sap to fight your battle for you.

Are there rules for a trial by combat? Can Oberyn pull out a slingshot ala the biblical David and kill him from 30 feet away?


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

MikeAndrews said:


> C'Mon. Not even GRRM would have The Mountain win and have us watch Tyrion get beheaded.


LOL.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> C'Mon. Not even GRRM would have The Mountain win and have us watch Tyrion get beheaded.


Robb Stark waves hi!


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

TriBruin said:


> Robb Stark waves hi!


Robb AND Ned AND Cat.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Marco said:


> Robb AND Ned AND Cat.


AND Talisa AND their unborn child...

AND Robert

AND Renly

AND Joffrey

AND Viserys

AND Khal Drogo


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> AND Talisa AND their unborn child...
> 
> AND Robert
> 
> ...


I'm suddenly picturing Podrick all alone on the iron throne the last surviving character.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> Robb Stark waves hi!





Marco said:


> Robb AND Ned AND Cat.





DreadPirateRob said:


> AND Talisa AND their unborn child...
> 
> AND Robert
> 
> ...


Oh yeah? How many Emmys did _they_ win?


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Oh yeah? How many Emmys did _they_ win?


That raises an interesting point. When GRRM wrote the books, he didn't know who would receive an Emmy. I haven't read the books, so I have absolutely no idea what will happen. However, I don't think it's impossible that someone very popular and award-winning could meet an untimely end. I wouldn't put any faith in how well-liked a character is or how many awards an actor has received.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

smbaker said:


> That raises an interesting point. When GRRM wrote the books, he didn't know who would receive an Emmy. I haven't read the books, so I have absolutely no idea what will happen. However, I don't think it's impossible that someone very popular and award-winning could meet an untimely end. I wouldn't put any faith in how well-liked a character is or how many rewards an actor has received.


Consider that the TV producers have wandered a bit from what GRRM wrote. They would certainly wander if it meant saving their incredibly popular star.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I would be highly surprised if the TV show spared a major character that was killed off in the books just because said character was popular.


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Is Oberyn supposed to be a good fighter? I don't remember hearing anything about that.


Amongst his weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Consider that the TV producers have wandered a bit from what GRRM wrote. They would certainly wander if it meant saving their incredibly popular star.


Saving someone like Tyrion from an early demise would likely be a massive diversion. They'd have to do a significant amount of rewriting to make interesting plot lines that feature him.

I think Tyrion will be just fine, but that's because he's the type of character that you'd keep around in a book series until pretty close to the very end. Getting rid of him would make the plot less interesting. Getting rid of Ned and Robb Stark, on the other hand, made the plot more interesting.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I don't know---it would be cool to have Ned at the Wall when the wildlings and white walkers attack. It would also be cool to have Tyrion there, but I guess that's off the table now.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Oh yeah? How many Emmys did _they_ win?


Since Emmys are awarded for PAST performances, I don't see how that's relevant


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I don't know---it would be cool to have Ned at the Wall when the wildlings and white walkers attack.


But what would Ned have done for the five or six seasons before the white walkers finally get to the wall? Just mope around Castle Black?


----------



## hairyblue (Feb 25, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I would be highly surprised if the TV show spared a major character that was killed off in the books just because said character was popular.


I don't know about that. In the series True Blood, the books had Lafayette die at the end of the first book. But TV guys kept him around because he was so popular.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

hairyblue said:


> I don't know about that. In the series True Blood, the books had Lafayette die at the end of the first book. But TV guys kept him around because he was so popular.


And by the 3rd season about the only thing the books and TV show had in common was the names of the characters.

I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen with GoT.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

jakerock said:


> I'm suddenly picturing Podrick all alone on the iron throne the last surviving character.


That would be awesome


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

hairyblue said:


> I don't know about that. In the series True Blood, the books had Lafayette die at the end of the first book. But TV guys kept him around because he was so popular.


The original plan, from what I've read was to kill Jack off early in Lost, and he made it to the end of the series. If this was NBC, I'd say they wouldn't kill Tyrion off if he was killed off in the books, because Network TV has to sell ads based on ratings and I could see them get scared if they killed off the favorite character. I could see the execs meddling at that point.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

MikeAndrews said:


> C'Mon. Not even GRRM would have The Mountain win and have us watch Tyrion get beheaded.


Don't bank on that. Don't ever bank on that with this guy.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

MikeAndrews said:


> Oh yeah? How many Emmys did _they_ win?


The first season was built around Sean Bean. The promotions, the interviews, everything. There was very real discussion on whether to let him live or die.

The showrunners made the right choice. People die in the books and there are real consequences. If anyone is written to die in the book, you can be sure they will die in the show.

Some characters have been changed, or just not included from the books, but of all the major players thus far the ones that were supposed to die have. I would expect that trend to continue.

Tyrion, like Dany, Jon snow, and everyone else is fair game. We may not like it. We will probably hate it if it should come to pass, but I doubt the showrunners will shy from killing any of the remaining characters if GRRM has already made it so.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

smbaker said:


> But what would Ned have done for the five or six seasons before the white walkers finally get to the wall? Just mope around Castle Black?


Tell everyone in a place that is made of ice, is freezing cold, and miserable that winter is coming.

He might not last any longer at the wall than he did at King's Landing.


----------



## AeneaGames (May 2, 2009)

Steveknj said:


> The original plan, from what I've read was to kill Jack off early in Lost, and he made it to the end of the series. If this was NBC, I'd say they wouldn't kill Tyrion off if he was killed off in the books, because Network TV has to sell ads based on ratings and I could see them get scared if they killed off the favorite character. I could see the execs meddling at that point.


Two totally different shows where one was written for TV and they made stuff up as they went along while the other is one they have books already to take their story from.

Sure, they can still change things but I doubt GRRM would allow that (as in, I wouldn't be surprised he only gave permission for them to make the show if they do things he agrees with). After all, he wrote the books so he could more easily kill off popular characters since he was tired of not being allowed to do so in TV scripts...


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

AeneaGames said:


> Two totally different shows where one was written for TV and they made stuff up as they went along while the other is one they have books already to take their story from.


Only point I was trying to make is that highly popular characters sometimes are "saved" when the original plans say otherwise. I doubt that will happen on HBO.



> Sure, they can still change things but I doubt GRRM would allow that (as in, I wouldn't be surprised he only gave permission for them to make the show if they do things he agrees with). After all, he wrote the books so he could more easily kill off popular characters since he was tired of not being allowed to do so in TV scripts...


Does GRRM have a say in this? I know he's an EP, but frequently the original book authors don't get a say in changes the TV / Movie writers want to do.


----------



## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

GRRM is an Executive producer, I think he's ok with what they do with the show


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Before They Were on Game of Thrones


When they showed Mark Addy (Robert Baratheon), I thought for sure the clip would be from Still Standing.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

AeneaGames said:


> Two totally different shows where one was written for TV and they made stuff up as they went along while the other is one they have books already to take their story from.


Not to mention that one is on a Broadcast network, who need to keep a series running as long as possible, while the other is on a Cable network who is comforable with series of a fixed length.



AeneaGames said:


> Sure, they can still change things but I doubt GRRM would allow that (as in, I wouldn't be surprised he only gave permission for them to make the show if they do things he agrees with). After all, he wrote the books so he could more easily kill off popular characters since he was tired of not being allowed to do so in TV scripts...


And with GRRM being an Executive Producer, And responsible for writing one (usually the "key") episode each season,I'm pretty sure that Weiss and Benhoff won't be allowed to "save" any major character from his/her fate as told in the book.

BTW Facebook version for this episode
http://happyplace.someecards.com/go...lace-entirely-on-facebook-season-4-episode-7/


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

smbaker said:


> That raises an interesting point. When GRRM wrote the books, he didn't know who would receive an Emmy. I haven't read the books, so I have absolutely no idea what will happen. However, I don't think it's impossible that someone very popular and award-winning could meet an untimely end. I wouldn't put any faith in how well-liked a character is or how many awards an actor has received.


When GRRM started writing the books he had just come off of a couple of really bad experiences writing for TV and he was very bitter. He wrote ATOIAF specifically so it could never be made into a TV show. That's part of the reason there are so many things like incest, infanticide, and other long words that start with "I." This was in the early 90s before HBO started having series so he had no idea it might actually be possible.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> The first season was built around Sean Bean. The promotions, the interviews, everything. There was very real discussion on whether to let him live or die.


Really? I had heard that he only took the role because it was a one-year thing...


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> The first season was built around Sean Bean. The promotions, the interviews, everything. There was very real discussion on whether to let him live or die.


Color me skeptical.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> Don't bank on that. Don't ever bank on that with this guy.


If Tyrion was offed, who would be left that the audience would care about?
Arya?
Dany?
Jon Snow?
Not Sansa

Besides we're waiting for the day that Cercie and/or Tywin buys it, but there needs to be a unkillable villain.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> When they showed Mark Addy (Robert Baratheon), I thought for sure the clip would be from Still Standing.


He deserved a best supporting Emmy, too.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> When they showed Mark Addy (Robert Baratheon), I thought for sure the clip would be from Still Standing.


What, not the Full Monty?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Really? I had heard that he only took the role because it was a one-year thing...


Well, it appears I am wrong. I could have swore I saw the producers make that statement in an HBO special, but according to this:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ss-discuss-game-of-thrones-season-2-more.html



> Weiss: Neds death was one of the things that made us want to do the show in the first place. It was presented as a fact on the ground from the beginning. Any network that would have insisted on keeping him alive would have been the wrong network for this show. The prospect was never raised at HBO. Not once in 10,000 meetings.


I am wrong.

I am certain I saw what I saw, so I will keep looing, but that is the official answer for now.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

hairyblue said:


> I don't know about that. In the series True Blood, the books had Lafayette die at the end of the first book. But TV guys kept him around because he was so popular.


I know absolutely nothing about True Blood, but if the show is made like most other things on HBO, the entire first season was probably already in the can before they ever aired the pilot, so I doubt they knew which characters would be popular with fans before deciding whether that one lived or died.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> What, not the Full Monty?


Friar Tuck in Robin Hood, too.


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## BruceShultes (Oct 2, 2006)

Since magic is available, they can always kill a popular character at the end of season cliff-hanger and then use a spell to bring him(her) back to life in a later season.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BruceShultes said:


> Since magic is available, they can always kill a popular character at the end of season cliff-hanger and then use a spell to bring him(her) back to life in a later season.


Other than as a White Walker, I don't get the impression that the author is the type who would use that type of "cheat".


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Other than as a White Walker, I don't get the impression that the author is the type who would use that type of "cheat".


We've already seen it. The Red Priest Thoros brought Beric Dondarian back after The Hound killed him last year (or the year before?).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

heySkippy said:


> We've already seen it. The Red Priest Thoros brought Beric Dondarian back after The Hound killed him last year (or the year before?).


You're right. I withdraw my objection!


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

hairyblue said:


> I don't know about that. In the series True Blood, the books had Lafayette die at the end of the first book. But TV guys kept him around because he was so popular.


As a book reader, I can tell you that there have been no deviations from the books in terms of who have died and when, at least among the major characters*. So I would be absolutely shocked if they started doing so now. From every indication, Benioff and Weiss take the books as canon, so much so that GRRM has told them how he intends to ultimately end the story, so that they can finish the show off in his vision if he doesn't live to finish the books.

* There have been two deviations that I can think of among the minor characters, but in both cases these minor characters were either new creations for the show (i.e. did not exist in the book or were changed dramatically from the book) or were a character on the show that combined the storylines of two characters from the books.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

So I'm current with the show - just started reading the book (50% through the first one) and started rewatching the show from the beginning again last night. 

What started as a way to better understand the show is quickly turning into something that is only confusing me MORE.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> Tell everyone in a place that is made of ice, is freezing cold, and miserable that winter is coming.
> 
> He might not last any longer at the wall than he did at King's Landing.


No love for Ned here? I figure John Snow got his way of handling men from Ned and he gets along there pretty well except for the smart guys from Kings Landing who don't know what they're doing. Ned could have commanded respect from the men and become Lord Commander. Of course, that wouldn't help much when the White Walkers march in, and winter IS coming.....


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Lot's of Ned love here - lamenting the fact that I'm going to have to "re live" his death twice more, shortly.

I will say though, that Sean Bean is probably responsible for the majority of shock in his death on the show. In the book, he's important, sure - but doesn't come across as any more or less important than any number of other major characters.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

MonsterJoe said:


> Lot's of Ned love here - lamenting the fact that I'm going to have to "re live" his death twice more, shortly.
> 
> I will say though, that Sean Bean is probably responsible for the majority of shock in his death on the show. In the book, he's important, sure - but doesn't come across as any more or less important than any number of other major characters.


I wonder if perhaps you are a bit affected by that fact that you knew he was going to die. I was certainly surprised when he died in the book (with no prior notice).


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Maybe - but I can't imagine being as slack-jaw shocked as I was from the show.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

jakerock said:


> I wonder if perhaps you are a bit affected by that fact that you knew he was going to die. I was certainly surprised when he died in the book (with no prior notice).


I also think that some things (including but not limited to the fate of Ned Stark) have more impact on the screen than in the book. Conversely, the book does better in other respects than the TV could.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> When they showed Mark Addy (Robert Baratheon), I thought for sure the clip would be from Still Standing.





DUDE_NJX said:


> What, not the Full Monty?


I thought for sure they would show him in The Full Monty. It's the polar opposite of GoT.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

jakerock said:


> I wonder if perhaps you are a bit affected by that fact that you knew he was going to die. I was certainly surprised when he died in the book (with no prior notice).


I hadn't read the books when Ned died, but I had seen a spoiler, which I hoped was a joke or a mistake. I couldn't believe it. I was definitely invested in the idea of him taking the Black, which is how it looked like it would go.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Well, it appears I am wrong. I could have swore I saw the producers make that statement in an HBO special, but according to this:
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ss-discuss-game-of-thrones-season-2-more.html
> 
> ...


Just think about what it would have meant to keep Ned around. Thats not just a small diversion from the book...like maybe they could just tuck him away in some small role that doesn't influence much. It would have changed the entire premise of seasons 2-4. Robb's desperation to get to kings landing is gone, and so is his agreement to marry a frey girl to get across the bridge to get to ned in time. Now there's no Red wedding, which means Cat still lives, and Littlefinger doesn't try to take revenge upon Joffrey. Every single major event of this show has been impacted. The show might as well not even be about the same story anymore.


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## bobock (May 22, 2014)

Best moment: Oberyn talks with Tyrion and agrees to fight with mountain.
Person who surprised me positively: Hot Pie !
Person who let me down: Mountain, killing the beggars.
Rating: 8,5/10


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## hairyblue (Feb 25, 2002)

Oberyn's talk with the Tyrion shows that Cersei hated Tyrion from the beginning. Seems like Cersei would have killed Tyrion herself while he was a baby.

Cersei is just plan wicked. And if Tyrion does live thru this, I wonder where he'll go? Looking for his wife? I don't see him going back to his whore.

<I hope I got the names right, the pressure is killing me>


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Anubys said:


> 2. I thought the producers/editor/director/whatever really made a huge mistake by finishing up with the scene at the Eyrie instead of the scene in Tyrion's cell. Flip the order of those 2 scenes and finish with Tyrion and the whole episode would have been 10 times more powerful.


That was my thought as well. It was super obvious from the minute they introduced the Moon Door that something like this was going to happen.

That said, I still want Robin to fly.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Woah. What if Tywin say s that Oberyn can't be champion because it would a be conflict of interest for a jurist. 

Like just having Tywin as judge isn't a conflict of interest.

Like having the real killer's hubby as jurist isn't a conflict of interest.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

bobock said:


> Person who let me down: Mountain, killing the beggars.


I wondered about this. I didn't pay that close attention and I had assumed they were prisoners being executed. I remember an episode of _Rome_ where they did this, sentencin Titus Pullo to be executed in gladiator combat.



hairyblue said:


> And if Tyrion does live thru this, I wonder where he'll go? Looking for his wife? I don't see him going back to his whore.


I would like to see him somehow end up with Daenerys and company.

When the combat is concluded, I'm assuming Tyrion will be innocent of the charges. In theory, he could take up leadership of Casterly Rock, as I would assume his brother's deal is now null and void and someone has to do it. A respectable compromise for his father may be to make Tyrion ambassador to some far away land (Dorne? Bravos?) and be rid of him.

He will owe a debt of gratitude to Prince Oberyn, so perhaps they work together for a bit.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

If Tyrion does take the black, does that nullify his marriage to Sansa?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

smbaker said:


> ...When the combat is concluded, I'm assuming Tyrion will be innocent of the charges. In theory, he could take up leadership of Casterly Rock, as I would assume his brother's deal is now null and void and someone has to do it. A respectable compromise for his father may be to make Tyrion ambassador to some far away land (Dorne? Bravos?) and be rid of him.
> 
> He will owe a debt of gratitude to Prince Oberyn, so perhaps they work together for a bit.


I would guess that Tyrion is going to want to get the hell out of Kings Landing what would with being considered another king slayer and all.

He could go to Winterfell.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Woah. What if Tywin say s that Oberyn can't be champion because it would a be conflict of interest for a jurist.


In a trial by combat the judges from the trial are out of the picture.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

smbaker said:


> When the combat is concluded, I'm assuming Tyrion will be innocent of the charges. In theory, he could take up leadership of Casterly Rock, as I would assume his brother's deal is now null and void and someone has to do it. A respectable compromise for his father may be to make Tyrion ambassador to some far away land (Dorne? Bravos?) and be rid of him.


I believe Tywin made his feelings regarding Tyrion taking over Casterly Rock abundantly clear!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hummingbird_206 said:


> If Tyrion does take the black, does that nullify his marriage to Sansa?


Well, there's a vow of celibacy. So really, no need for a divorce. Nothing would change anyway.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I wen't to a Catholic High School, and our Principal was a Catholic Priest. He had a wife and 2 children. 

He converted to Catholicism after he married and had the 2 kids, and he supposedly was fulfilling his celibacy.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Oberyn isn't a judge anymore. The proceedings have moved from "trial by judge(s)" to "trial by combat", so now the gods are the judge(s).

Or what zordude said


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, there's a vow of celibacy. So really, no need for a divorce. Nothing would change anyway.


That aside, I'm asking because I wonder if Sansa would be free to remarry?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

So how does Trial by Combat work if you're not actually doing the combat. If you're champion loses, does that mean you have to die or does it mean you have to be "sentenced appropriately" by a judge.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> So how does Trial by Combat work if you're not actually doing the combat. If you're champion loses, does that mean you have to die or does it mean you have to be "sentenced appropriately" by a judge.


Assume that if your champion dies you lose your head.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Taking the black wouldn't work out well for Tyrion. A lot of them are thugs, at least to start, who would seriously abuse a little person -- especially a former (?) noble. I'm not sure if he'd still be considered noble, but it wouldn't protect him. I can't see him lasting there very long.

And after his outburst, I'm not sure dad wants to send him to the wall anymore.

How many eps left this season?


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

tlc said:


> Taking the black wouldn't work out well for Tyrion. A lot of them are thugs, at least to start, who would seriously abuse a little person -- especially a former (?) noble. I'm not sure if he'd still be considered noble, but it wouldn't protect him. I can't see him lasting there very long.
> 
> And after his outburst, I'm not sure dad wants to send him to the wall anymore.


I agree he'd have problems there, but it might beat losing his head where he is. Though, it's probably no longer an option anyway.



> How many eps left this season?


3.


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## jeff92k7 (Jan 18, 2006)

I rarely comment on these threads, but there's something about all this speculation that I thought of. What if Tywin had all outcomes already planned from the start?

1. everything goes according to plan and Jamie goes to start a family and Tyrion goes away.
2. Tyrion does something stupid, like requesting trial by combat, but Tywin has already planned for that by inviting prince Oberyn (sp?) to be a judge, knowing that Cercei would pick the Mountain, creating an opportunity for Oberyn to get his revenge.

In case of number 2, no matter which way the combat goes, Tywin still wins. If Oberyn wins, then Tywin has helped satisfy his thirst for revenge thereby making another ally. If Oberyn loses, then that's one less revengeful person to worry about and he still gets rid of Tyrion.

No matter what happens, Tywin has accounted for all situations.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> If you're champion loses, does that mean you have to die or does it mean you have to be "sentenced appropriately" by a judge.


Depends on whether there are mandatory minimums for kingslaying... 

I'd guess the judge(s) would still assign a sentence, which would almost certainly be death. Perhaps even slow an painful death of the cruel and unusual punishment variety.



jeff92k7 said:


> 1. everything goes according to plan and Jamie goes to start a family and Tyrion goes away.
> 2. Tyrion does something stupid, like requesting trial by combat, but Tywin has already planned for that by inviting prince Oberyn (sp?) to be a judge, knowing that Cercei would pick the Mountain, creating an opportunity for Oberyn to get his revenge.


There's also:

3. Tyrion chooses Jamie, who is promptly slaughtered by the mountain, and there are no true Lannister heirs remaining.

If I was Jaime and Tyrion, I'd have almost tried this, under the assumption it would force Tywin and Cercei to drop the charges.

Furthermore, I don't know that giving Oberyn a legitimate path to Mountaincide makes him an ally. It may just embolden him into killing more Lannisters.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

So, 3 eps left. What gets resolved?

It seems like the Tyrion thread will resolve in some sense. It seems like Arya/Hound and Brienne/Podrick are going to be traveling a while. Sansa and Littlefinger are probably essentially done for the season. Danarys, too. I guess the wall will be attacked? Maybe that will be a cliffhanger? Who am I forgetting?

Edit: Bran -- could be essentially done for the season. Stannis -- I can't remember what he's doing.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

MikeAndrews said:


> Like having the real killer's hubby as jurist isn't a conflict of interest.


OOOhhhh I never thought of that. Cool. I suppose he has no idea that his wife is the killer. If I were him, I'd have a food taster when she cooks. Probably a good thing she doesn't cook.



hummingbird_206 said:


> That aside, I'm asking because I wonder if Sansa would be free to remarry?


Littlefinger, is that you?



tlc said:


> Taking the black wouldn't work out well for Tyrion. A lot of them are thugs, at least to start, who would seriously abuse a little person -- especially a former (?) noble. I'm not sure if he'd still be considered noble, but it wouldn't protect him. I can't see him lasting there very long.


If Jon can protect Sam, he could protect Tyrion. If Jon can stay alive.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

smbaker said:


> ...There's also:
> 
> 3. Tyrion chooses Jamie, who is promptly slaughtered by the mountain, and there are no true Lannister heirs remaining.
> 
> If I was Jaime and Tyrion, I'd have almost tried this, under the assumption it would force Tywin and Cercei to drop the charges.


That was what Tyrion told Jamie, "Can you imagine the look on Father's face?"

Jamie knew he can't fight with the one wrong hand and wasn't in the mood to die.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Like having the real killer's hubby as jurist isn't a conflict of interest.





stellie93 said:


> OOOhhhh I never thought of that. Cool. I suppose he has no idea that his wife is the killer. If I were him, I'd have a food taster when she cooks. Probably a good thing she doesn't cook.


I'm pretty sure that Lady Olenna is Margaery's grandmother, which would mean she's not married to Mace Tyrell (the third judge). She's most likely his mother.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Oh, right. He's such an idiot and she's so cool and smart. He must take after his father.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Jamie knew he can't fight with the one wrong hand and wasn't in the mood to die.


That's the point of the bluff. Would Tywin and Cersei allow Jamie to face certain death?



stellie93 said:


> If Jon can protect Sam, he could protect Tyrion.


Sam is a nobody. Tyrion has enemies, and a big mouth that tends to get him into trouble. Protecting Tyrion would be a full time job.



tlc said:


> So, 3 eps left. What gets resolved?


I think you're right. Tyrion will leave for his next big adventure. I'm not sure about Arya and the Hound. Somehow I see them being split up. They're getting to be too chummy together, and it's time for GRRM to give Arya some more grief. I'm betting Castle Black falls in episode 9 and we get something new and unexpected for episode 10.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

jeff92k7 said:


> I rarely comment on these threads, but there's something about all this speculation that I thought of. What if Tywin had all outcomes already planned from the start?
> 
> 1. everything goes according to plan and Jamie goes to start a family and Tyrion goes away.
> 2. Tyrion does something stupid, like requesting trial by combat, but Tywin has already planned for that by inviting prince Oberyn (sp?) to be a judge, knowing that Cercei would pick the Mountain, creating an opportunity for Oberyn to get his revenge.
> ...


Facilitating Oberyn getting his revenge wouldn't do much: ultimately he wants revenge against Tywin. The Mountain was just a pitbull let loose, Tywin held the leash.


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## bobock (May 22, 2014)

Ment said:


> Facilitating Oberyn getting his revenge wouldn't do much: ultimately he wants revenge against Tywin. The Mountain was just a pitbull let loose, Tywin held the leash.


Oberyn from the begining wanted to kill Tywin, he is not stupid, killing the mountain its just the first thing he wants to do. I never believed that Oberyn would help Tywin with Daenerys. Tywin should be next on his list.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

For the record Mace Tyrell is Olenna Tyrell's son, not husband.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I can see Tywin exiling Tyrion and Tyrion joining up with Danerys, I'm thinking that Tyrion can get back most of the money he gave to Shea which would give him enough of a base to start over and watch Westeros from afar. Question, does Selmy know Tyrion wel enough to inform Danerys that he could be a clever ally, and isn't "lying Lannnister scum"?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> For the record Mace Tyrell is Olenna Tyrell's son, not husband.


I take it he's only sitting on the council because Hodor was unavailable?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tiassa said:


> I can see Tywin exiling Tyrion and Tyrion joining up with Danerys, I'm thinking that Tyrion can get back most of the money he gave to Shea which would give him enough of a base to start over and watch Westeros from afar. Question, does Selmy know Tyrion wel enough to inform Danerys that he could be a clever ally, and isn't "lying Lannnister scum"?


How would Tyrion get back any money that he gave to Shae? Is he going to call the Iron Bank place a "stop payment" on the sack of gold he handed her?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

tlc said:


> Taking the black wouldn't work out well for Tyrion./QUOTE]
> 
> Oooooohhhh, Take Tyrion out to The Black and tell Tywin he ain't coming back?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> How would Tyrion get back any money that he gave to Shae? Is he going to call the Iron Bank place a "stop payment" on the sack of gold he handed her?


I'm sure Bronn can help out for a reasonable cut of the recovered funds (like, say, 50%).


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

DevdogAZ said:


> How would Tyrion get back any money that he gave to Shae? Is he going to call the Iron Bank place a "stop payment" on the sack of gold he handed her?


If there was any property involved, like a house, he could get that back, people were paid for ongoing services, like cooks or protection Tyrion can "take over the contract". Yes, the bag of gold is probably not recoverable, but that isn't all of it.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I rewatched this today since there wasn't a new one. 

I was wondering if Jaime told Brienne what to do with Sansa (and Arya) if she found them. Was she just supposed to be sure they were ok? Surely she wouldn't take them back to Kingslanding. 

Petyr said "it's a long time between now and never" when Sansa said she would never see Winterfell again. If he really plans on marrying her and becoming lord of Winterfell, how is he planning to keep Cercie from putting her on trial or killing her? The only way I can think of is to kill Cercie--which is not a bad idea. 

I don't believe we have to wait another week for the next episode.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Well, believe it.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I don't believe we have to wait another week for the next episode.


No kidding. Even worse, is that there are only 3 episodes left of this season!  

Didn't it just start?


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

It started on April 6th.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> It started on April 6th.


I was hoping you would say 7 episodes ago...


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> It started on April 6th.





Anubys said:


> I was hoping you would say 7 episodes ago...


I know, I know.   But it *seems* like it just started a couple of weeks ago. This season is flying by.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Seriously though, I can't believe it's the end of season 4 already, and the show still feels fresh and exciting.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Seriously though, I can't believe it's the end of season 4 already, and the show still feels fresh and exciting.





DUDE_NJX said:


> Well, believe it.


what goes around...


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Haha!:up:

I should've known better than to be serious.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Seriously though, I can't believe it's the end of season 4 already, and the show still feels fresh and exciting.


The thing that amazes me is how "short" each episode seems, it will get to the end and I'll say "Wait? That was an hour!? (yes I know most episodes are on the order of 50-53 minutes). Then I'll watch Nurse Jackie and that seems to take twice as long as an episode of GoT, and NJ is only 30 minutes.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

So.....this whole game is pretty much Petyr vs Varis?


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

I'm finally in. When I read this was the most pirated show on TV it piqued my interest. I'm still catching up on Season 2 and 3 (all available on HBO GO on my Apple TV) and I'm really hooked. What a great show. I'll be back once I'm current. Which at this rate won't be long. I watched 6 episodes in one day yesterday.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

You picked the wrong time to start a "binge catchup" bareyb, because you are going to catch up with season 4 just in time for the season to end and will have an extreme case of "GoT off season withdrawal" when the season ends in 3 weeks. The time to start binge catchup is the beginning of the year, that way the end of your binge slides into the new season, and you can taper off to "one show a week" before you fo cold turkey for the 9 months with no new episodes.


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

tiassa said:


> You picked the wrong time to start a "binge catchup" bareyb, because you are going to catch up with season 4 just in time for the season to end and will have an extreme case of "GoT off season withdrawal" when the season ends in 3 weeks.


Meh. Welcome to the party!


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

tiassa said:


> The time to start binge catch up is the beginning of the year, that way the end of your binge slides into the new season, and you can taper off to "one show a week" before you go cold turkey for the 9 months with no new episodes.


That's exactly how I did it. I watched the first three seasons over the course of a month leading up to Season 4.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

tiassa said:


> You picked the wrong time to start a "binge catchup" bareyb, because you are going to catch up with season 4 just in time for the season to end and will have an extreme case of "GoT off season withdrawal" when the season ends in 3 weeks.


But at least he'll likely be caught up in time for the episode 9 discussion, which should be a good episode if past seasons are any indication (ned, blackwater, red wedding). Not sure what will top Joffrey's wedding this season, but I'm hoping something will.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Sounds like Tyrion's execution might happen then.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> But at least he'll likely be caught up in time for the episode 9 discussion, which should be a good episode if past seasons are any indication (ned, blackwater, red wedding).


True, Episode 9 seems to be the episode where "really big S**t goes down" and Ep 10 is more "set stuff up for next season".



LordKronos said:


> Not sure what will top Joffrey's wedding this season, but I'm hoping something will.


Tyrion getting out of King's Landing? I'm pretty sure his trial by combat will acquit him, but the court of popular opinion (not to mention Cersei) will still want his head for regicide. Where can he go? Dorne? Essos? Pentos? Bravos? I wonder if he can hijack that ship Cersei gave to Marcella for her birthday.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Sounds like Tyrion's execution might happen then.


I doubt that. With this series, anything is possible, but I think he's got a lot more to offer. And for that to happen, Oberyn would have to lose the battle. I feel like we've been set up for this character to do more than what he has so far.

I'd like something more, like getting his actual revenge on Cersei. Something along the lines of "since you think I'm a killer, I wouldn't want to disappoint you". And Cersei's character feels like shes getting a little old here. Now that Robert and Joffrey are gone, Myrcella has been sent off, Tommen is under Tywin's thumb, her (mistaken) revenge against Tyrion is about to slip away, and she's now Jamie's rape toy, it feels like it's just time for her to exit.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tiassa said:


> Tyrion getting out of King's Landing? I'm pretty sure his trial by combat will acquit him, but the court of popular opinion (not to mention Cersei) will still want his head for regicide. Where can he go? Dorne? Essos? Pentos? Bravos? I wonder if he can hijack that ship Cersei gave to Marcella for her birthday.


Trial by combat means the Gods get to decide. If Oberyn wins, that means the Gods have spoken and Tyrion is not guilty. His speech at the trial may make him unpopular, but - as I understand it - there will be no doubt as to his innocence.

Cersei, on the other hand, will continue to be...herself


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> I doubt that. With this series, anything is possible, but I think he's got a lot more to offer. And for that to happen, Oberyn would have to lose the battle. I feel like we've been set up for this character to do more than what he has so far.
> 
> I'd like something more, like getting his actual revenge on Cersei. Something along the lines of "since you think I'm a killer, I wouldn't want to disappoint you". And Cersei's character feels like shes getting a little old here. Now that Robert and Joffrey are gone, Myrcella has been sent off, Tommen is under Tywin's thumb, her (mistaken) revenge against Tyrion is about to slip away, and she's now Jamie's rape toy, it feels like it's just time for her to exit.


imagine all the fun she will have at highgarden married to the gay knight (can't recall his name)...I think there is plenty of fun to be had! 

I need to correct one thing: we all saw it as a rape. But the author did not write it as a rape and the show runners and director did not intend for it to be a rape. So, as far as the story is concerned, it was not a rape.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Trial by combat means the Gods get to decide. If Oberyn wins, that means the Gods have spoken and Tyrion is not guilty. His speech at the trial may make him unpopular, but - as I understand it - there will be no doubt as to his innocence.


Exactly, acquitted in the trial by combat, guilty in the court of public opinion.



Anubys said:


> imagine all the fun she will have at highgarden married to the gay knight (can't recall his name)...I think there is plenty of fun to be had!


Ser Loras Tyrell -- The interesting thing about that marriage (should it come to pass, which I highly doubt) would be what would people think of any children from that union. Everyone knows Loras is gay, everyone knows Cersei "stepped out" on her ex-husband, should Cersei turn up pregnant, Westeros' version of TMZ would have a field day.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

tiassa said:


> Exactly, acquitted in the trial by combat, guilty in the court of public opinion.


Tyrion == OJ?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

allan said:


> Tyrion == OJ?


If OJ had had a trial by combat, he would have sliced his opponent into ribbons.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> If OJ had had a trial by combat, he would have sliced his opponent into ribbons.


With badly fitting gloves on his hands.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

If the Mountain's throat be slit,
then Tyrion you must acquit.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Next season can be Cercie's wrongful death civil suit.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> With badly fitting gloves on his hands.


And ugly ass shoes on his feet.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> And ugly ass shoes on his feet.


But expensive!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tiassa said:


> Exactly, acquitted in the trial by combat, guilty in the court of public opinion.


I think you're missing my point. Public opinion would change to "wow! the Gods say he is innocent. Did not see that one coming. I was sure he was guilty, but now it's clear that he is not. The Gods have said so".

To be clear, that is my interpretation of "I'll let the Gods decide. I demand a trial by combat". If the Gods decide, "normal people" who believe in these Gods will take the result as...well...gospel !


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I think you're missing my point. Public opinion would change to "wow! the Gods say he is innocent. Did not see that one coming. I was sure he was guilty, but now it's clear that he is not. The Gods have said so".
> 
> To be clear, that is my interpretation of "I'll let the Gods decide. I demand a trial by combat". If the Gods decide, "normal people" who believe in these Gods will take the result as...well...gospel !


In theory, yes.

In practice, however, trial by combat was almost always more of a negotiating tactic..."I'm willing to go THIS far; are YOU?" I can't remember the percentage of cases where trial by combat was proposed and then actually carried out, but it was pretty low. The current thinking is that most people thought of it as not actually divinely dictated, and I suspect if somebody actually went through with it and won, the reaction would be more "THAT guy got lucky!" than "God says he's innocent!".

Then again, GoT takes place in a world where supernatural intervention really occurs, although not everybody seems to realize it. So people might be more inclined to take it seriously.

And at the end of the day, it's a story that Martin made up, so all that matters is how Martin thinks people in this world would react.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I need to correct one thing: we all saw it as a rape. But the author did not write it as a rape and the show runners and director did not intend for it to be a rape. So, as far as the story is concerned, it was not a rape.


If it wasn't supposed to be rape, then it was a very poorly executed scene.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gweempose said:


> If it wasn't supposed to be rape, then it was a very poorly executed scene.


No argument there. From everything I've read (not the books, just commentary about this scene), this was not a rape in the books. Also from everything I've read, the intent was NOT for this to be a rape when it was filmed.

HOWEVER, now that everyone agrees that it was a rape, the people in charge (who were shocked at the reaction from viewers) may proceed as if it were a rape simply because they are painted in that corner by the "poorly executed scene".


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Not everyone.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

It wasn't rape. It was an enhanced copulation technique.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I will put this text from a TV critic about the rape scene in spoiler tags. If you ask me, it is not a spoiler...it does discuss how that scene played out in the books.



Spoiler



Lets get to the obvious  the scene with Jaime and Cersei in the sept is unambiguously a depiction of rape. This is very different from how the scene was handled in the books. In the books, Cersei does protest Jaimes advances, but Martin uses the adverb weakly, and its framed as a concern that the septons might return. Soon after that, she has full agency in the act, telling Jaime, quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. The question for me is whether director Alex Graves and the showrunners were trying to depict what they actually depicted: Jaime raping Cersei. This interview with Graves suggests he was going for something much closer to the book version. Which is troubling because: That. Is. Not. What. They. Showed.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Then again, GoT takes place in a world where supernatural intervention really occurs, although not everybody seems to realize it. So people might be more inclined to take it seriously.
> 
> And at the end of the day, it's a story that Martin made up, so all that matters is how Martin thinks people in this world would react.


Since the only evidence we've seen of direct action taken by any god has been the multiple resurrections of Bedric Dondarion, (and note how shocked Arya was to see that) my feeling is that most Westerosi will think "Tyrion got lucky" not "The gods have decreed Tyrion is innocent".

You are right tho, that whatever Martin says is the reaction is what "really" happened.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MonsterJoe said:


> Not everyone.


I'm sure rapists would disagree 

When a woman says no from start to finish and you have to pin her down from start to finish, I think it meets the definition of rape. There are always people who will disagree that the sun sets in the West, but I think we - as a society - have pretty much agreed that this would be rape.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Did you just call me a rapist?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MonsterJoe said:


> Did you just call me a rapist?


I didn't think you meant that YOU disagreed...only that some people do...I was just trying to figure out who those people would be, in a joking manner

sorry!


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I do disagree. I didn't see that scene as rape at all. 

But we already talked about that in the thread for that episode, and I was already shamed for my opinion on it, so by all means...

Obviously I'm not crazy, since we learned that it wasn't even SUPPOSED to be rape at all to begin with...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MonsterJoe said:


> I do disagree. I didn't see that scene as rape at all.
> 
> But we already talked about that in the thread for that episode, and I was already shamed for my opinion on it, so by all means...
> 
> Obviously I'm not crazy, since we learned that it wasn't even SUPPOSED to be rape at all to begin with...


You're not alone. Here's the director talking about the scene:



> Question: You say it becomes consensual by the end. I rewatched the scene this morning, and it ends with Cersei saying, Its not right, its not right, and Jaime on top of her saying, I dont care. I dont care. It leaves some room for debate. Were you involved with cutting the scene? Was there a longer version of the scene that might have read more like they were both consenting?
> 
> Answer: Its my cut of the scene. The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him, and shes holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in whats going on. And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him. The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, shes way into kissing him back. Shes kissing him aplenty.


again, I apologize for my poor joke.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I wouldn't have been able to articulate it as well as the director did (obviously) so thanks for posting it.

..and no worries - I was mostly joking, and just a little bit making sure.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

MonsterJoe said:


> Obviously I'm not crazy...


Well let's not jump to conclusions here!


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

My Dr. said I'm out of the woods after my last round of treatment, so I'm sticking to my statement.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Here is a link to the full interview

*WARNING*there is one sentence that discusses something in a future episode. I read it and I do not consider it a spoiler. It would be like someone posting "someone on GoT is going to die"...it's technically a spoiler, but it really isn't 

But, if you're a stickler on spoilers, you've been warned.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

tiassa said:


> Since the only evidence we've seen of direct action taken by any god has been the multiple resurrections of Bedric Dondarion ...


What about the shadowy thing killing Renly? Doesn't that also signify the existence of otherworldly forces?


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

gweempose said:


> What about the shadowy thing killing Renly? Doesn't that also signify the existence of otherworldly forces?


This gets into "divine intervention" vs "magic". I will argue that Renley's killer was "magic", yes I know that it was "magic" created by a priestess of the Lord of Fire, but Dondarian's resurrection(s) were directly tied to an appeal to the Lord of Fire, and after the appeal was made the laws of nature were reversed.

This is kind of a quibble, but I think you get my drift.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tiassa said:


> This gets into "divine intervention" vs "magic". I will argue that Renley's killer was "magic", yes I know that it was "magic" created by a priestess of the Lord of Fire, but Dondarian's resurrection(s) were directly tied to an appeal to the Lord of Fire, and after the appeal was made the laws of nature were reversed.
> 
> This is kind of a quibble, but I think you get my drift.


Well, I said "supernatural" because to me "magic" and "gods" are exactly the same thing...i.e., supernatural. And there's been a growing amount of supernatural stuff going on, so the notion that there might be supernatural intervention in an ordeal would probably get more traction in Westeros than it would in the USA.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, I said "supernatural" because to me "magic" and "gods" are exactly the same thing...i.e., supernatural. And there's been a growing amount of supernatural stuff going on, so the notion that there might be supernatural intervention in an ordeal would probably get more traction in Westeros than it would in the USA.


Hey don't downplay the USA when it comes to believing in the supernatural.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jakerock said:


> Hey don't downplay the USA when it comes to believing in the supernatural.


I know...I know...but really, I'm human just like everyone else.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jakerock said:


> Hey don't downplay the USA when it comes to believing in the supernatural.


Right, but here we're limited to people who accept the supernatural without evidence. In Westeros, you get those people, plus those who actually have evidence. So, more traction there than here.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I expect for most people in Westeros, magic is still tales and folklore. They talk about it, but have never really seen it, and neither have their friends. There's probably a lot of people who are skeptical about the gods, and would not believe Tyrion's innocence.


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