# The Big Bang Theory [09/22/2014] The Locomotion Interruption



## ScubaCat (Jun 26, 2003)

Glad to have the gang back! 

OK. Let's hear it about Penny's new hairstyle. I like it. What do you think?


Note: There is a second thread for the second episode of the night (The Junior Professor Solution).


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

She looked rather professional dressed up for an interview. 
And I loved her and Stephen Root talking about how scared they were of Bernadette.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

ScubaCat said:


> Glad to have the gang back!
> 
> OK. Let's hear it about Penny's new hairstyle. I like it. What do you think?


Love Penny's hair. I know it's not for everyone, but I think it looks very hot on her.

Show's still funny! :up:


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## Frylock (Feb 13, 2002)

I HATED Penny's new hair personally. Definitely not for me.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm generally not a fan of short hair and I prefer her with the long hair, but I will admit that she pulls off the short hair pretty well. 

Is this the thread for both new episodes or just the first one?


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## ScubaCat (Jun 26, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Is this the thread for both new episodes or just the first one?


Since the two episodes were unrelated there is a second thread for the second show (The Junior Professor Solution).


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

not a fan of her new hair. Yeah, it looks more 'professional' but her hair was one of her best assets. i don't get why women with great hair cut it short. most guys prefer longer hair.


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## ScubaCat (Jun 26, 2003)

milo99 said:


> not a fan of her new hair. Yeah, it looks more 'professional' but her hair was one of her best assets. i don't get why women with great hair cut it short. most guys prefer longer hair.


Remind me again why women should care what most guys prefer?


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## nyc13 (May 31, 2013)

I was amused by the part about Sheldon still having the pictures after his phone was stolen because of backup to the cloud. I wonder when that scene was filmed


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

ScubaCat said:


> Remind me again why women should care what most guys prefer?


they shouldn't, unless they want to look more attractive to men. and in the context of Hollywood, where an actresses whose success came thanks in no small part to her attractiveness to men, i'd think SHE would care.

let's not make this into a self image threadjack. it's a simple statement, we're talking about hair here, and getting rid of something that's great about her. This is not akin to weight or personality or other such things.


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## ScubaCat (Jun 26, 2003)

nyc13 said:


> I was amused by the part about Sheldon still having the pictures after his phone was stolen because of backup to the cloud. I wonder when that scene was filmed


It was filmed just a few weeks ago but before iOS 8 came out.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

All I could think about with Penny's hair was Felicity.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Funny. My thought at times was how she looked like a younger Ellen!


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

ScubaCat said:


> Remind me again why women should care what most guys prefer?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I loved the new hair style. The long hair was just getting to be too odd with styling. When the show first started it was cute.

I hope to rewatch this in reruns. The last half was a digital mess. It started during the interview and I chugged through but couldn't see anything, could only hear.


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## ScubaCat (Jun 26, 2003)

I'm also enjoying Stewart's relationship with Howard's mother. It's such a nice change to see him happy. I'm not sure where this will go when "Deb Deb" recuperates from her injury.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I like the longer hair, but she did look pretty good in her professional outfit.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

I really hope Steven Root becomes a recurring character.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

ScubaCat said:


> I'm also enjoying Stewart's relationship with Howard's mother. It's such a nice change to see him happy. I'm not sure where this will go when "Deb Deb" recuperates from her injury.


Howard said that she'd already recovered. That's why Howard thought Stewart had moved out and was surprised to see him at her house when he went to visit, then learned Stewart was still staying there.

Just wondering, Howard kept saying it was "his" house; are we supposed to know that Howard actually owns that house? Or was he just saying it figuratively since he grew up there?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

milo99 said:


> i don't get why women with great hair cut it short. most guys prefer longer hair.


My teenage daughter cut off her long hair about 6 months ago. Short. Almost Miley short, but not quite.

We are stopped in public no less than 2 times a week by complete strangers....men included  ......so they can tell her how much they love her hair. Just a few days ago it was the guy working behind the counter at the post office.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

madscientist said:


> Just wondering, Howard kept saying it was "his" house; are we supposed to know that Howard actually owns that house? Or was he just saying it figuratively since he grew up there?


I think B.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

madscientist said:


> Howard said that she'd already recovered. That's why Howard thought Stewart had moved out and was surprised to see him at her house when he went to visit, then learned Stewart was still staying there.
> 
> Just wondering, Howard kept saying it was "his" house; are we supposed to know that Howard actually owns that house? Or was he just saying it figuratively since he grew up there?


That was confusing to me in its ambiguity as well. I took it to mean his as in childhood home, especially considering the content of the argument it was in with Stewart, like a child to a new boyfriend.


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## ScubaCat (Jun 26, 2003)

Didn't they also discuss that Stewart was older (45?) than Howard thought? Might get interesting...


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

ScubaCat said:


> It was filmed just a few weeks ago but before iOS 8 came out.


Not sure if you didn't get the joke or are being factitious


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## ScubaCat (Jun 26, 2003)

betts4 said:


> ...I hope to rewatch this in reruns. The last half was a digital mess. It started during the interview and I chugged through but couldn't see anything, could only hear.


I haven't tried it but I think you can watch the episodes here - at least right now.

CBS website has the episodes here.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

ScubaCat said:


> Didn't they also discuss that Stewart was older (45?) than Howard thought? Might get interesting...


Howard thought he was 30 something. Raj said 45. but I don't think they ever said who was right.


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## ScubaCat (Jun 26, 2003)

mwhip said:


> Not sure if you didn't get the joke or are being factitious


I thought the reference was to all the photo issues in iOS 8 but it wouldn't be the first time I didn't get the joke.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

milo99 said:


> not a fan of her new hair. Yeah, it looks more 'professional' but her hair was one of her best assets. i don't get why women with great hair cut it short. most guys prefer longer hair.


I saw an interview with her where she said she cut it for a movie, and they were discussing how to fix it for Big Bang (Hair extensions, perhaps?) and the producers liked it and decided to write it in.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I hate the new hair. It doesn't look drunk and felonious enough.



(Seriously, though, I like it.)


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

madscientist said:


> ....Just wondering, Howard kept saying it was "his" house; are we supposed to know that Howard actually owns that house? Or was he just saying it figuratively since he grew up there?


That's what I was wondering too....

re: Penny's short hair...my wife used to have longer hair, but now has it short. Yes, she does care what I think, but it's also much easier to take care of (sorry about ending the sentence in a preposition!). By the way, despite what my photo to the left indicates, I have little to no hair...


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

ScubaCat said:


> I thought the reference was to all the photo issues in iOS 8 but it wouldn't be the first time I didn't get the joke.


There was recently someone who "hacked" into iCloud accounts of celebrities and leaked private photos. She was one of them.


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## ScubaCat (Jun 26, 2003)

Thanks for the explanation. I wasn't thinking of the actors just the logic of the storyline.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

So when do we get the spinoff of "Stewie and Debs"?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I hate the new hair. It doesn't look drunk and felonious enough.  (Seriously, though, I like it.)


Actually better for a drunk. Don't have to hold hair when praying to the porcelain God.


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## Andrew_S (Nov 12, 2001)

ScubaCat said:


> Remind me again why women should care what most guys prefer?


Ditto. As a man I can say that I find women with short hair attractive. Heck, women without hair can still be hot (Sinead O'Connor).


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

I have found women with short hair attractive but by and large I prefer longer hair. 
I thought Robin Wright pulled off the short hair in House of Cards but don't think it works at all for Kaley.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

mwhip said:


> So when do we get the spinoff of "Stewie and Debs"?


You mean "Deb Deb"?


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

My wife and I agreed that Penny looked HOT with the short hair. Actually I said hot, my wife said adorable. Of course I also thought she was hot with the long hair.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> You mean "Deb Deb"?


Or the couple name. Steb Steb.


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> (sorry about ending the sentence in a preposition!)


Don't be. It's a legacy rule from a different language, and is to be ignored.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

nyc13 said:


> I was amused by the part about Sheldon still having the pictures after his phone was stolen because of backup to the cloud. I wonder when that scene was filmed


Shame on Sheldon for not turning on Find My... for his iPhone and/or iPad.



TonyTheTiger said:


> Funny. My thought at times was how she looked like a younger Ellen!


Which was really confusing when she did appear on Ellen.
(She said that her husband likes her hair like that.)


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Funny. My thought at times was how she looked like a younger Ellen!


Some of her lines in this episode, particularly during the interview, reminded me strongly of Ellen as well.

(I like the hairstyle, BTW.)


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

ScubaCat said:


> Glad to have the gang back!
> 
> OK. Let's hear it about Penny's new hairstyle. I like it. What do you think?


I think it worked well when she was dressed up for the interview, but otherwise I wasn't a huge fan. It was fine, just not what I'd prefer (not that the actress, or the character, should give a damn )


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## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

milo99 said:


> they shouldn't, unless they want to look more attractive to men. and in the context of Hollywood, where an actresses whose success came thanks in no small part to her attractiveness to men, i'd think SHE would care.
> 
> let's not make this into a self image threadjack. it's a simple statement, we're talking about hair here, and getting rid of something that's great about her. This is not akin to weight or personality or other such things.


You're generalizing. Plenty of guys like women with short hair.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

verdugan said:


> You're generalizing. Plenty of guys like women with short hair.


of course, i'm generalizing. That's why i said "most men" and not "all men", and said "prefer" and "MORE attractive" not, "will never find a woman with short hair attractive". It's relative.

there have been numerous polls and studies that talk about this. There's even been studies that basically showed men pics of women with short hair, rated their attractiveness, then the men were shown the same women with long hair, had their attractiveness rated, only to find that for the most part, the women were found more attractive with longer hair.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

milo99 said:


> of course, i'm generalizing. That's why i said "most men" and not "all men", and said "prefer" and "MORE attractive" not, "will never find a woman with short hair attractive". It's relative.
> 
> there have been numerous polls and studies that talk about this. There's even been studies that basically showed men pics of women with short hair, rated their attractiveness, then the men were shown the same women with long hair, had their attractiveness rated, only to find that for the most part, the women were found more attractive with longer hair.


The whole Felicity thing would not have been a big deal at all if there wasn't a preference for longer hair.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I think the real thing is who really cares whether men like it or not. How does the woman feel about it. Does she like her short hair? then great, it can be short. You get it cut and you find you don't like it, then let it grow. 

Men shave their heads to hide baldness but do they ask their wives, girlfriends or anyone else? (I don't know, I just know of two friends that did this and they really don't look that good bald) Some guys look good bald, and some don't. Some should just have the horseshoe ring and be happy. It doesn't bother as many women as you think. 

Yes, you poked the beast.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

betts4 said:


> I think the real thing is who really cares whether men like it or not. How does the woman feel about it. Does she like her short hair? then great, it can be short. You get it cut and you find you don't like it, then let it grow.
> 
> Men shave their heads to hide baldness but do they ask their wives, girlfriends or anyone else? (I don't know, I just know of two friends that did this and they really don't look that good bald) Some guys look good bald, and some don't. Some should just have the horseshoe ring and be happy. It doesn't bother as many women as you think.
> 
> Yes, you poked the beast.


I agree with you for the most part but it's completely different when it comes to actresses, models or anyone else where their income is derived in large part to the way they look.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

madscientist said:


> Just wondering, Howard kept saying it was "his" house; are we supposed to know that Howard actually owns that house? Or was he just saying it figuratively since he grew up there?


B, continuing the riff about being his dad.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

betts4 said:


> I think the real thing is who really cares whether men like it or not. How does the woman feel about it. Does she like her short hair? then great, it can be short. You get it cut and you find you don't like it, then let it grow.
> 
> Men shave their heads to hide baldness but do they ask their wives, girlfriends or anyone else? (I don't know, I just know of two friends that did this and they really don't look that good bald) Some guys look good bald, and some don't. Some should just have the horseshoe ring and be happy. It doesn't bother as many women as you think.
> 
> Yes, you poked the beast.


I think it's better than the god awful comb over, at least.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

ScubaCat said:


> Remind me again why women should care what most guys prefer?


That was a rhetorical question, correct? I mean everyone likes to look attractive to the opposite sex, right? With in bounds of course.

I think she was looking kinda skanky with her old longer hair. She looks a lot better with it short. Was it odd that they really didn't discuss it on the show other than Sheldon having a conniption fit?

I would think Howard would be happy that someone is taking care of his Mom so he doesn't have to. I might even enjoy the segments with his Mom included as I love Stuarts' character.

I love the evolving of the show to new jobs for three of the characters.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Hair? Why are we discussing her hair? Did we all not see her doing felonious drunken yoga with that smoken hot new body? Doesn't she deserve some kudos for the obvious effort she put in over the summer to get back there?


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Men shave their heads to hide baldness but do they ask their wives, girlfriends or anyone else?


I certainly discussed it with the wife, when I decided to go with short-short hair.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

SeanC said:


> That was confusing to me in its ambiguity as well. I took it to mean his as in childhood home, especially considering the content of the argument it was in with Stewart, like a child to a new boyfriend.


It wasn't ambiguous at all. I don't understand the confusion. He grew up there and lived there until two years ago, so he still considers it his house. He doesn't own it. His mother does.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

I think what a lot of us are responding to is that most adult children wouldn't use that phrase "my house" to describe the home owned by their mother, that they no longer live in.

It would have been far less ambiguous if Stuart had called Howard out on that point.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

SeanC said:


> I think what a lot of us are responding to is that most adult children wouldn't use that phrase "my house" to describe the home owned by their mother, that they no longer live in.
> 
> It would have been far less ambiguous if Stuart had called Howard out on that point.


But that would have ruined the joke. They were trying to have Howard speaking to Stuart like a father speaks to a rebellious teenager. But then some of the conversation was reversed with Stuart taking the father role. It was a really funny conversation and didn't need the extra explanation about property ownership.


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## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

Sooooo...this year it's not going to be about 'felonious Penny'. It's more about her non-felonious short hair? Okey dokey 

I think it looks cute, although I'm not really big on short hair. Some people can pull it off and some (like me) cannot. I have extremely long, thick hair and let me tell ya - it's a PITA. Short hair would be a dream! 

I enjoyed the episodes. Both were quite funny. I loved Sheldon's fake-out to test if Amy was listening (in the car with Leonard).


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

replaytv said:


> I think she was looking kinda skanky with her old longer hair. She looks a lot better with it short. Was it odd that they really didn't discuss it on the show other than Sheldon having a conniption fit?


Not odd at all. While it was new to us because it was the first episode of the season, and it was new to Sheldon because he had been gone for awhile, the rest had already experienced the change.  The show did not pickup right where it left off last season. There was a passage of time in which Sheldon compared ketchups at various train stations, got his stuff stolen, Stuart took care of Howard's mom, Howard's mom got better, etc. Her haircut and the discussion about it with the rest of the characters took place during that passage of time. We were just not privy to it.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I think it said 45 days had passed. Or did I imagine that?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

eddyj said:


> I think it said 45 days had passed. Or did I imagine that?


No, you did not imagine it.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

SeanC said:


> It would have been far less ambiguous if Stuart had called Howard out on that point.


That's what I was waiting for, and they could have had a funny argument about it. Also Bernie should be a little upset that he calls that home instead of where he lives with her. On the other hand, Howard has a good income and his mother has no visible means of support. Maybe it's his house.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

sharkster said:


> ...I loved Sheldon's fake-out to test if Amy was listening (in the car with Leonard).


That actually had me fooled for a second or two...


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

betts4 said:


> I think the real thing is who really cares whether men like it or not. How does the woman feel about it. Does she like her short hair? then great, it can be short. You get it cut and you find you don't like it, then let it grow.


a woman can do whatever she damn wants with her hair. But she should be aware of the consequences. In this particular case, a majority of men will find her less attractive. Some may find her more attractive. Some may not care. If she's fine with those consequences, then more power to her. What she can't do is expect men to also like what she does just because she likes it.

That's the point i'm essentially making.



betts4 said:


> Men shave their heads to hide baldness but do they ask their wives, girlfriends or anyone else? (I don't know, I just know of two friends that did this and they really don't look that good bald) Some guys look good bald, and some don't. Some should just have the horseshoe ring and be happy. It doesn't bother as many women as you think.
> 
> Yes, you poked the beast.


Men should NOT do that either without checking with their SO first (if they're single, they can do whatever they want too, but my advice would be to get advice from women whose taste they respect because as you said, not all guys can pull off the shaved head look).


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## gschrock (Dec 28, 2001)

milo99 said:


> a woman can do whatever she damn wants with her hair.


I think technically in Michigan it's illegal for a wife to cut her hair without her husband's permission. Now, obviously, the odds of anyone ever getting prosecuted for that is probably pretty slim.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> That's what I was waiting for, and they could have had a funny argument about it. Also Bernie should be a little upset that he calls that home instead of where he lives with her. On the other hand, Howard has a good income and his mother has no visible means of support. Maybe it's his house.


I think she should be more upset that Howard referred to her as his mother rather than his wife.


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## Rainy Dave (Nov 11, 2001)

Now about those yoga pants....


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Rainy Dave said:


> Now about those yoga pants....


"They're comfortable."

--Carlos V.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I think she should be more upset that Howard referred to her as his mother rather than his wife.


If looks could kill, Howard would be dead.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

milo99 said:


> a woman can do whatever she damn wants with her hair. But she should be aware of the consequences. In this particular case, a majority of men will find her less attractive. Some may find her more attractive. Some may not care. If she's fine with those consequences, then more power to her. What she can't do is expect men to also like what she does just because she likes it.
> 
> That's the point i'm essentially making.


What's it to you?
and
Why would you think it's necessary to make that point to the forum?

and as for your last sentence:
"What she can't do is expect men to also like what she does just because she likes it."

Why not?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

markz said:


> Not odd at all. While it was new to us because it was the first episode of the season, and it was new to Sheldon because he had been gone for awhile, the rest had already experienced the change. The show did not pickup right where it left off last season. There was a passage of time in which Sheldon compared ketchups at various train stations, got his stuff stolen, Stuart took care of Howard's mom, Howard's mom got better, etc. Her haircut and the discussion about it with the rest of the characters took place during that passage of time. We were just not privy to it.


There was a line about the hair early in the episode, long before Sheldon saw it and had a fit. It was when Leonard asked Penny if she wanted to ride with him to Kingman to pick up Sheldon. And she said something like, "No, he'll see my hair and won't be able to stop asking my why I cut it."


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

milo99 said:


> they shouldn't, unless they want to look more attractive to men. and in the context of Hollywood, where an actresses whose success came thanks in no small part to her attractiveness to men, i'd think SHE would care.
> 
> let's not make this into a self image threadjack. it's a simple statement, we're talking about hair here, and getting rid of something that's great about her. This is not akin to weight or personality or other such things.


You've got this ass-backwards. She's an actress, and if the producers of a show want her to have a particular kind of hair, the hair people can take care of that.

An actress who had long hair and refused to cut it for a part would have a tougher time getting a job.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

murgatroyd said:


> You've got this ass-backwards. She's an actress, and if the producers of a show want her to have a particular kind of hair, the hair people can take care of that.
> 
> An actress who had long hair and refused to cut it for a part would have a tougher time getting a job.


And if the BBT people thought it was a big deal, it would be trivial to put her in a wig until it grew out.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

markz said:


> Her haircut and the discussion about it with the rest of the characters took place during that passage of time. We were just not privy to it.


I am hurt and appalled!! What was it I did that they decided to shut me out from such a important discussion? I thought I was best buddies with all of them and they shared everything with me!

I continue to be amazed at AFFs' clothes. They just crack me up every time I see her. Could any woman wear more unflattering clothes?


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Ereth said:


> I think it's better than the god awful comb over, at least.


There is nothing worse.



replaytv said:


> That was a rhetorical question, correct? I mean everyone likes to look attractive to the opposite sex, right? With in bounds of course.


People like to look attractive.



SeanC said:


> I think what a lot of us are responding to is that most adult children wouldn't use that phrase "my house" to describe the home owned by their mother, that they no longer live in.


How many of us lived there until we were 30?


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

replaytv said:


> I am hurt and appalled!! What was it I did that they decided to shut me out from such a important discussion? I thought I was best buddies with all of them and they shared everything with me!
> 
> I continue to be amazed at AFFs' clothes. They just crack me up every time I see her. Could any woman wear more unflattering clothes?


Then you are watching the wrong show!

On Big Brother you can subscribe to live feeds to see what is going on between episodes and Big Brother also allows you to vote for what Team America does!


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

eddyj said:


> Howard thought he was 30 something. Raj said 45. but I don't think they ever said who was right.


My take was that Howard mentioned him being thirty something and Raj commented that the weirdest thing for him was that he thought Stuart was like 45.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> What's it to you?
> and
> Why would you think it's necessary to make that point to the forum?


ummmm... these threads are usually talking about Penny's looks, the new hair was obviously a big topic we're talking about. i made a comment about my thoughts on it and in general. others made comments either directly on indirectly responding to me. So i replied with clarifying thoughts. it's a discussion forum. 



scandia101 said:


> and as for your last sentence:
> "What she can't do is expect men to also like what she does just because she likes it."
> 
> Why not?


seriously?

you can do whatever you want. If you're happy with it great! But you do not own other people's opinions and freedom to think whatever they want. That's why. If you want to dye your hair purple because you love it, fantastic. go for it. But i have the right to think it looks ridiculous. YOU don't have the right to demand that I like it just because you do.

I know it's PC to say everyone is beautiful and all that, but people find attractive what they find attractive. It's not something we choose.



murgatroyd said:


> You've got this ass-backwards. She's an actress, and if the producers of a show want her to have a particular kind of hair, the hair people can take care of that.
> 
> An actress who had long hair and refused to cut it for a part would have a tougher time getting a job.



umm.. what i said had nothing to do with her getting parts or refusing to have the hair a producer wants her to. I think you extrapolated a little too much from what i said.

She has fans. She is popular. A good bit of that fandom and popularity has to do with how she looks. So i think she cares about how she looks to her fanbase. If she doesn't, that's fine too. But my guess is she does care, hence my comment.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

milo99 said:


> umm.. what i said had nothing to do with her getting parts or refusing to have the hair a producer wants her to. I think you extrapolated a little too much from what i said.
> 
> She has fans. She is popular. A good bit of that fandom and popularity has to do with how she looks. So i think she cares about how she looks to her fanbase. If she doesn't, that's fine too. But my guess is she does care, hence my comment.


You are confused? That's because you are being entirely self-centered, and you have no idea how the industry actually works. Let me spell it out for you.

The person we are talking about is an actress, who is also, hello, pay attention now, in a role where she is _playing an actress_.

Whether we are talking about Kaley (in real life) or Penny (in the show), it doesn't matter. She has to be willing to change up her looks to meet the requirements of the production she is in at the moment. If she isn't willing to do that, she won't be able to get work.

Don't believe me?

Russell Crowe had a tooth knocked out when he was a kid, and didn't get it fixed for a long time. He was unwilling to do so because it was "part of his history", etc.

He was up for consideration for a role and someone took him aside and suggested that he do something about the missing tooth. Crowe explained, part of his history, etc.

The person said, "Yes, but you see, <character name> doesn't have a missing tooth." The implication was clear: if Russell insisted on keeping the gap, he wouldn't get the role.

Crowe was at the dentist the next day. And guess what? He got hired for a lot more roles after he got his teeth fixed.

If Penny refused to cut her hair because "her fanbase wouldn't like her with short hair" she would be laughed out of the casting director's office.

If you are so enamored of Kaley's long hair that you don't find her attractive without it, you are not really her fan. You are saying it's okay that she gets passed over for work because you won't like her as much if she cuts her hair short.

Just like Sheldon, you think you know better than the people who actually work in the TV and film industry. Just like Sheldon, you can't separate reality from your own self-interest.

But you are wrong.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

murgatroyd said:


> You are confused? ...
> 
> But you are wrong.


You are not responding to Milo's point at all, actually. Just because the producers think people will like it doesn't mean that they will.

Milo's point is that some will like it, but more won't (let's not quibble over percentages). The fact that she likes it or that the producers wrongly think that most people will like it doesn't change the reality that more people prefer longer hair.

Milo, sorry for putting words in your mouth if I did not express you opinion correctly.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Anubys said:


> You are not responding to Milo's point at all, actually. Just because the producers think people will like it doesn't mean that they will.
> 
> Milo's point is that some will like it, but more won't (let's not quibble over percentages). The fact that she likes it or that the producers wrongly think that most people will like it doesn't change the reality that more people prefer longer hair.
> 
> Milo, sorry for putting words in your mouth if I did not express you opinion correctly.


no, you pretty much summed it up.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Shockingly, producers make crappy decisions all the time.

As to her hair I like it. I like short hair on women. My wife and daughter have long hair.
I have said I think they would look better with short hair, and they both said they like it the way it is,
and that's that. So that's that.

OTOH, I grew a beard after Sandy. I liked it, but my wife didn't. The beard went.
Draw your own conclusions.


----------



## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

murgatroyd said:


> You are confused? That's because you are being entirely self-centered, and you have no idea how the industry actually works. Let me spell it out for you.
> 
> The person we are talking about is an actress, who is also, hello, pay attention now, in a role where she is _playing an actress_.
> 
> ...


you seem to be really angry. and you take that anger and take other people's comments then extrapolate a step or 2 further than they intend, essentially accusing them of saying things they did not say, or even contemplate.

Here, let me draw it out for you.

A) pretty actress becomes popular in no small part due to her looks, which includes long hair
B) Decision to cut hair is made
C) girl cuts hair
D) a lot of those fans won't like it

I said i don't get why a girl, especially in situation (A), does (C). that is, i don't know WHY stage (B) ends the way it does. Then i went on to say that essentially when the decision B is made and C happens, she can't demand that D does NOT happen because she has no control over D since it's other people's thoughts and opinions.. I made no assertion of what went on during (B) or WHY it happened. I have no idea. That's the crux of my original comment. I don't get it.

You somehow inserted other things in there about stuff that possibly went on during (B), and WHY it was made, and that maybe she had to do it to keep her job, and now i don't care about her making a living because all i care about is how she looks, and because of that i'm self centered and don't know jack about the industry etc etc. To which i say, wtf?

It's as if you had some imaginary exchange with me where you said, "actually she HAD to do it in order to get a part in a movie" and i supposedly responded with "Well that was stupid of her to do that. she shouldn't have done that because i and other fans won't like it."

Problem is, THAT EXCHANGE NEVER HAPPENED except perhaps in your own head.

So, please calm down, and stop reading between the lines. and while you're at it, stop accusing me of stuff based on things in your own head.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

murgatroyd said:


> You are confused?
> 
> <wall of text removed>
> 
> But you are wrong.


Nothing you said here has any relevance to the discussion at hand. Nobody is questioning Kaley's (or Penny's) willingness to comply with the wishes of a casting person or a director. The reason for the new hairstyle is immaterial.

People are merely expressing an opinion about whether they like the new hairstyle. Someone then mentioned that both Kaley and her new husband liked the new look. Milo99's response was simply pointing out that it's fine that she likes it. But the mere fact that she likes it is not going to change the opinion of people who don't like it.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I find it interesting that you say "a lot of fans won't like it". 

Where is that coming from? Many of us here have said we do like it. And granted, many have said we don't like it either. 

Maybe it's poll time?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Or wait and see if the ratings plummet from all those people who can't stand the new hair abandoning the show in droves. Or not.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

betts4 said:


> I find it interesting that you say "a lot of fans won't like it".
> 
> Where is that coming from? Many of us here have said we do like it. And granted, many have said we don't like it either.
> 
> Maybe it's poll time?


It's based on the fact that in studies, as cited earlier in the thread, men generally prefer women with long hair over women with short hair. That's not saying anything about whether Kaley's new hairstyle is cute or looks good on her. It's just taking a known fact (men generally prefer long hair) and applying it to this situation.

http://www.hairfinder.com/tips/men_prefer_long_hair.htm

http://chrisbackley.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/on-why-men-prefer-women-with-long-hair/


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

betts4 said:


> I find it interesting that you say "a lot of fans won't like it".
> 
> Where is that coming from? Many of us here have said we do like it. And granted, many have said we don't like it either.
> 
> Maybe it's poll time?


Devdogaz already posted one, and here's a polll on celebrity hairstyles. if you take anything shoulder length and longer as "longer" hair, it adds up to 65%... although i have no idea what a "long bob" style looks like, so i didn't include it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...st-hair-short-hair-leaves-cold-says-poll.html


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

betts4 said:


> I find it interesting that you say "a lot of fans won't like it".
> 
> Where is that coming from? Many of us here have said we do like it. And granted, many have said we don't like it either.
> 
> Maybe it's poll time?


There is an actual case study on this with the uproar that occurred with Keri Russel in the second season of Felicity. How much her haircut contributed to the declining ratings is debatable though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felicity_(TV_series)#Hairstyle_change


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Nothing you said here has any relevance to the discussion at hand. Nobody is questioning Kaley's (or Penny's) willingness to comply with the wishes of a casting person or a director. The reason for the new hairstyle is immaterial.


But just for clarification's sake, I saw Kaley's interview on Ellen last week.
She said that the new hairstyle was her decision.

http://www.ellentv.com/videos/0-mp06zi8t/


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or wait and see if the ratings plummet from all those people who can't stand the new hair abandoning the show in droves. Or not.


I hate when hair abandons a show in droves.


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

Another BBT thread goes astray. I'm Shocked!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Ummmm.... seriously? Has nobody in this thread noticed that women tend to cut their hair as they get older? There comes a point where the effort to maintain the longer style is more than they are willing to put up with and they gradually get more "mature" hair styles.

She's not that teenager on 8 Simple Rules any longer.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

So AFF doesn't get lost in the all the attention that Penny is getting, I suggest she get a Mohawk or a tattoo on her forehead. Or really to fit in her weird clothing choices, maybe a beehive doo?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Ummmm.... seriously? Has nobody in this thread noticed that women tend to cut their hair as they get older? There comes a point where the effort to maintain the longer style is more than they are willing to put up with and they gradually get more "mature" hair styles.
> 
> She's not that teenager on 8 Simple Rules any longer.


Again, totally irrelevant to the discussion. Sure, many women tend to cut their hair as they get older. It often happens shortly after they get married when they no longer need the long hair to attract a man. Or it happens shortly after having kids, when they no longer have the time to dry and style the longer hair.

But none of that has any bearing on the fact that IN GENERAL, men prefer women with longer hair. Therefore, it's not a surprise that many men who watch this show and find Kaley attractive would be of the opinion that the new hairstyle does not look as good as the old one.


----------



## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

milo99 said:


> ummmm... these threads are usually talking about Penny's looks, the new hair was obviously a big topic we're talking about. i made a comment about my thoughts on it and in general. others made comments either directly on indirectly responding to me. So i replied with clarifying thoughts. it's a discussion forum.


What you said was how an overbearing agent would lecture a client, or mother (parent) / daughter, not how someone explains their preference.



> seriously?
> 
> you can do whatever you want.


Now you're being hypocritical. You said "what she can't do is expect..." but now you're saying "do whatever you want." Which is it?

Hint: She can expect whatever she wants.



> If you're happy with it great! But you do not own other people's opinions and freedom to think whatever they want. That's why. If you want to dye your hair purple because you love it, fantastic. go for it. But i have the right to think it looks ridiculous. YOU don't have the right to demand that I like it just because you do.


I didn't say anything that would contradict this.



> I know it's PC to say everyone is beautiful and all that, but people find attractive what they find attractive. It's not something we choose.


Not relevant to anything I said, but ok.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Again, totally irrelevant to the discussion. Sure, many women tend to cut their hair as they get older. It often happens shortly after they get married when they no longer need the long hair to attract a man. Or it happens shortly after having kids, when they no longer have the time to dry and style the longer hair.
> 
> But none of that has any bearing on the fact that IN GENERAL, men prefer women with longer hair. Therefore, it's not a surprise that many men who watch this show and find Kaley attractive would be of the opinion that the new hairstyle does not look as good as the old one.


Oh. I'm sorry. I thought the woman might have a say in how she cut her hair. I didn't realize it was completely and totally up to random men she will never talk to or interact with in any way. How silly of me.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Oh. I'm sorry. I thought the woman might have a say in how she cut her hair. I didn't realize it was completely and totally up to random men she will never talk to or interact with in any way. How silly of me.


Wait. Are you trying to say that looks and image don't mean anything in Hollywood? That actors and actresses aren't spending millions in plastic surgery to make themselves to look better to random people that they will never talk to or interact with? I have never actually heard that point of view before. I thought the opposite was always pretty much a given.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Oh. I'm sorry. I thought the woman might have a say in how she cut her hair. I didn't realize it was completely and totally up to random men she will never talk to or interact with in any way. How silly of me.


Still irrelevant to the discussion. Nobody has even remotely implied that she shouldn't be able to do whatever she wants with her hair. And of course the male fans and viewers have no say in how she does her hair. But it is entirely up to the male fans and viewers to form their own opinions about the new hairstyle. That's really what the discussion is about.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I don't know why this is so difficult to understand:

She can do whatever she wants. I don't have to like her choice. Freedom of choice/feelings for everyone. Why does this upset people?


----------



## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

Anubys said:


> I don't know why this is so difficult to understand:
> 
> She can do whatever she wants. I don't have to like her choice. Freedom of choice/feelings for everyone. Why does this upset people?


Displaced anger. If they tell the boss what they really think they will get fired. If they kick the dog the ASPCA will get them arrested, if they tell their significant other that those pants _do _ make their butt look fat then they will be paying alimony for the rest of their life.

So they choose to express their anger on this forum about things they actually don't care that much about.

Course I am not talking about myself, as I haven't a dog, boss, or significant other.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> What you said was how an overbearing agent would lecture a client, or mother (parent) / daughter, not how someone explains their preference.


huh? i don't even know how to reply to this because i have no idea how you equate the two.



scandia101 said:


> Now you're being hypocritical. You said "what she can't do is expect..." but now you're saying "do whatever you want." Which is it?
> 
> Hint: She can expect whatever she wants.


now you're splitting hairs. Ok, let me clarify. she can do whatever she wants to herself. What she cannot do is control other people and their thoughts, therefore, as a sane person, she cannot reasonably expect to control other's thoughts and opinions, and thus expecting others to share her opinions/preferences simply because she has them is a waste of her time and energy. Unless she develops some sort of mind control, in that case I would retract my statement.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

milo99 said:


> Unless she develops some sort of mind control, in that case I would retract my statement.


She does have a well developed mind control device. Two of them, in fact!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Still irrelevant to the discussion. Nobody has even remotely implied that she shouldn't be able to do whatever she wants with her hair. And of course the male fans and viewers have no say in how she does her hair. But it is entirely up to the male fans and viewers to form their own opinions about the new hairstyle. That's really what the discussion is about.


That's perhaps what your discussion is about. It wasn't what mine was about. The fact that these outraged males think their opinion has any value is what mine was about. You don't get to decide whats irrelevant to what I'm talking about. The blatant sexism on display in this thread is disturbing, and I think that's worth discussing.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Azlen said:


> Wait. Are you trying to say that looks and image don't mean anything in Hollywood? That actors and actresses aren't spending millions in plastic surgery to make themselves to look better to random people that they will never talk to or interact with? I have never actually heard that point of view before. I thought the opposite was always pretty much a given.


As a counterpoint to this position:


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Ereth said:


> That's perhaps what your discussion is about. It wasn't what mine was about. The fact that these outraged males think their opinion has any value is what mine was about. You don't get to decide whats irrelevant to what I'm talking about. The blatant sexism on display in this thread is disturbing, and I think that's worth discussing.


Sure, you're welcome to discuss whatever angle you want. But I don't appreciate you quoting my post as a way to begin your new angle, as if my post had anything even remotely to do with what you're trying to say. My post did not say the things you implied it did.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Ereth said:


> As a counterpoint to this position:


That is by far the exception rather than the rule.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Ereth said:


> That's perhaps what your discussion is about. It wasn't what mine was about. The fact that these outraged males think their opinion has any value is what mine was about. You don't get to decide whats irrelevant to what I'm talking about. The blatant sexism on display in this thread is disturbing, and I think that's worth discussing.


The image consciousness of Hollywood has some element of sexism especially when you are talking about age, but actors can be just as image conscious as actresses and if an actor did something to significantly change his appearance it will be commented on in the same manner.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

milo99 said:


> huh? i don't even know how to reply to this because i have no idea how you equate the two.


If you don't know the difference between explaining your preference and and overbearing lecture, that explains a lot.



> now you're splitting hairs.


No, I'm not. For you to say one thing and then try to explain it be saying the complete opposite is not trivial.



> Ok, let me clarify.


I doubt it, but go ahead.



> she can do whatever she wants to herself. What she cannot do is control other people and their thoughts, therefore, as a sane person, she cannot reasonably expect to control other's thoughts and opinions, and thus expecting others to share her opinions/preferences simply because she has them is a waste of her time and energy. Unless she develops some sort of mind control, in that case I would retract my statement.


What on God's green earth does that have to do with anything?


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Anubys said:


> I don't know why this is so difficult to understand:
> 
> She can do whatever she wants. I don't have to like her choice. Freedom of choice/feelings for everyone. Why does this upset people?


Has anyone actually said otherwise?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

scandia101 said:


> Has anyone actually said otherwise?


Yes.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> You are not responding to Milo's point at all, actually. Just because the producers think people will like it doesn't mean that they will.
> 
> Milo's point is that some will like it, but more won't (let's not quibble over percentages). The fact that she likes it or that the producers wrongly think that most people will like it doesn't change the reality that more people prefer longer hair.


I call BS on the statement that more people prefer longer hair. Go ahead and say it: more MEN may prefer longer hair (a dubious claim, but for the sake of argument, I'll let it stand), but MEN does not equal PEOPLE. A lot of women watch the show, and we understand that women change up their hair from time to time. And we aren't likely to go into hissy fits about it.

Kaley cut her hair because she took a role in a movie during hiatus. Are you seriously suggesting that she should have lost a job because Milo doesn't like it that she cut her hair?

I understand what he is saying, but the reality is (for both Kaley and her character on the show) is that no one gives a rat's ass what Milo or Sheldon thinks about her hair. She has to take on the hairstyle of the character she plays. That is a *job requirement*, the same as someone having to follow a dress code to work in corporate America.

If you don't want to wear a suit, and lose a job because of it, that is YOUR choice to make, but it is selfish to say that someone else has to lose work because YOU don't like the change in their appearance.

It's ridiculous to expect that Kaley should give up the chance to be in a movie. If a bunch of fanboys don't like it if she cuts her hair, too bad.

There are a lot of other people watching TBBT that will happily watch Kaley with her short hair, and our opinion is just as valid as Milo's is. Milo thinks the entire universe should revolve around him, just as Sheldon does.

The producers are gambling that those of us with a clue, who understand reality, outnumber the Sheldon-like whiners.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

murgatroyd said:


> I call BS on the statement that more people prefer longer hair. Go ahead and say it: more MEN may prefer longer hair (a dubious claim, but for the sake of argument, I'll let it stand), but MEN does not equal PEOPLE. A lot of women watch the show, and we understand that women change up their hair from time to time. And we aren't likely to go into hissy fits about it.
> 
> Kaley cut her hair because she took a role in a movie during hiatus. Are you seriously suggesting that she should have lost a job because Milo doesn't like it that she cut her hair?
> 
> ...


I think you are insane. I don't say this as an insult or as a way to win an argument. The only person who said anything of what you list here is YOU. Nobody said or even implied ANYTHING remotely close to what you're saying.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

milo99 said:


> You somehow inserted other things in there about stuff that possibly went on during (B), and WHY it was made, and that maybe she had to do it to keep her job, and now i don't care about her making a living because all i care about is how she looks, and because of that i'm self centered and don't know jack about the industry etc etc. To which i say, wtf?


It's her hair, not yours.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Ereth said:


> As a counterpoint to this position:


I don't think long hair would make her hotter.


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## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

murgatroyd said:


> I call BS on the statement that more people prefer longer hair. Go ahead and say it: more MEN may prefer longer hair (a dubious claim, but for the sake of argument, I'll let it stand), but MEN does not equal PEOPLE. A lot of women watch the show, and we understand that women change up their hair from time to time. And we aren't likely to go into hissy fits about it.
> 
> Kaley cut her hair because she took a role in a movie during hiatus. Are you seriously suggesting that she should have lost a job because Milo doesn't like it that she cut her hair?
> 
> ...


I do not recall reading *any *comment saying that Kaley should have refused to cut her hair, whether she did it to snag a part during the hiatus or just because she wanted a new hair style.

However, that said, Kaley's new hair style may not be a TBBT male fan favorite. Whether it is or not remains to be seen. If the new 'do is disliked by enough viewers, I can imagine the producers may have Kaley grow it out, or wear a wig or extensions. After all, to quote you, if that's what the producers want her character to do, then that's what her character will do.

Ultimately, in a case like this, the viewers are likely to have a say.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

murgatroyd said:


> I call BS on the statement that more people prefer longer hair. Go ahead and say it: more MEN may prefer longer hair (a dubious claim, but for the sake of argument, I'll let it stand), but MEN does not equal PEOPLE. A lot of women watch the show, and we understand that women change up their hair from time to time. And we aren't likely to go into hissy fits about it.


You do not speak for all people. And you certainly do not speak for all women.


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## Rainy Dave (Nov 11, 2001)

Wow...just wow.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Man, I forgot how horrible the BBT threads get.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> If you don't know the difference between explaining your preference and and overbearing lecture, that explains a lot.
> 
> No, I'm not. For you to say one thing and then try to explain it be saying the complete opposite is not trivial.
> 
> ...


your brainwaves operate rather uniquely. Since apparently stating statistical facts and my opinions = overbearing lecture.

and my clarification was in direct rebuttal to your calling me a hypocrite. i even quoted to what i replied to. if you can't figure that out and how that relates to anything, then there really is no more point in replying to your comments because you obviously take what i say and make it mean whatever it is you want it to.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Ereth said:


> The blatant sexism on display in this thread is disturbing, and I think that's worth discussing.


Sexism? how exactly is anything we've said sexism? Please.

Apparently discussing a mere point of what hair length men find attractive is now sexism in your book? heaven forbid!!! oh lemme guess, we're objectifying women because of this? all man and womankind should cease to discuss what is found attractive lest someone thinks its sexism. Rather ironic since you immediately post this next item, implying that the woman pictured is not attractive. Who's the sexist? 



Ereth said:


> As a counterpoint to this position:


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Sure, you're welcome to discuss whatever angle you want. But I don't appreciate you quoting my post as a way to begin your new angle, as if my post had anything even remotely to do with what you're trying to say. My post did not say the things you implied it did.


First off YOU quoted me. I didn't quote you until you replied directly to you. And the very first thing you said to me was that what I said was irrelevant.

So you might want to get your facts straight before you get upset. You have no room to "not appreciate" me quoting you replying to me.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

milo99 said:


> Sexism? how exactly is anything we've said sexism? Please.


What ISN'T sexism?

The discussion is about how Kaley is being viewed by men for her appearance. That's, as far as I can tell, the entire point. She cut her hair, and some of you are even suggesting the shows ratings will go down because of it. Yes, that's sexist.



> Apparently discussing a mere point of what hair length men find attractive is now sexism in your book? heaven forbid!!! oh lemme guess, we're objectifying women because of this?


Of course you are. Her only role in this is her relative attractiveness to male viewers. Her ability to act is totally irrelevant, only whether or not she's "hot" or not. That's the very definition of objectivication.



> all man and womankind should cease to discuss what is found attractive lest someone thinks its sexism.


Ah, yes, the cry of someone caught without a position to stand on, that everybody else does it, too.



> Rather ironic since you immediately post this next item, implying that the woman pictured is not attractive. Who's the sexist?


Which was in response to actors in Hollywood having to be attractive to get jobs, including getting plastic surgery. I'm amused at the lengths you have to go to to avoid getting that point.


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## bryhamm (Jun 30, 2004)

Ereth said:


> First off YOU quoted me. I didn't quote you until *you replied directly to you. *And the very first thing you said to me was that what I said was irrelevant.
> 
> So you might want to get your facts straight before you get upset. You have no room to "not appreciate" me quoting you replying to me.


Well that's a new one


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

bryhamm said:


> Well that's a new one


At least you didn't fix his post.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)




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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Ereth said:


> What ISN'T sexism?
> 
> The discussion is about how Kaley is being viewed by men for her appearance. That's, as far as I can tell, the entire point. She cut her hair, and some of you are even suggesting the shows ratings will go down because of it. Yes, that's sexist.


No, it really isn't. It's sociology.



> Of course you are. Her only role in this is her relative attractiveness to male viewers. Her ability to act is totally irrelevant, only whether or not she's "hot" or not. That's the very definition of objectivication.


again, no it's not. Discussing whether or not someone is attractive is not objectification. Objectifying her would be if we suggested that that was her only purpose in life. The act of discussing one's attractiveness is far from it. Just because you looked at the discussion and interpreted it as us suggesting that, does not make it so.



> Which was in response to actors in Hollywood having to be attractive to get jobs, including getting plastic surgery. I'm amused at the lengths you have to go to to avoid getting that point.


yeah, that's a b*tch ain't it.. when someone takes something you say, twists it into something you don't mean it to say, and accuses you of some -ism. Funny right?


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Is Leah Rimini still fat though?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I think you are insane. I don't say this as an insult or as a way to win an argument. The only person who said anything of what you list here is YOU. Nobody said or even implied ANYTHING remotely close to what you're saying.


This. I have no idea where Jan is getting the notion that anyone thinks Kaley doesn't have the right to do whatever she wants with her hair.



Ereth said:


> First off YOU quoted me. I didn't quote you until you replied directly to you. And the very first thing you said to me was that what I said was irrelevant.
> 
> So you might want to get your facts straight before you get upset. You have no room to "not appreciate" me quoting you replying to me.


Yes. I quoted and replied to you because you entered the conversation with this:



Ereth said:


> Ummmm.... seriously? Has nobody in this thread noticed that women tend to cut their hair as they get older? There comes a point where the effort to maintain the longer style is more than they are willing to put up with and they gradually get more "mature" hair styles.
> 
> She's not that teenager on 8 Simple Rules any longer.


Since that had nothing to do with what was being discussed, I told you that your facts were correct but that the comment was irrelevant. To which you replied:



Ereth said:


> Oh. I'm sorry. I thought the woman might have a say in how she cut her hair. I didn't realize it was completely and totally up to random men she will never talk to or interact with in any way. How silly of me.


Which again, made absolutely no sense because not a single person in the thread was saying or even implying that Kaley doesn't have a say in how she cuts her hair, or that random men do have a say.

You using my post as a jumping off point for implying that people are claiming Kaley doesn't have a say in how she styles her hair is what bothered me, since I said nothing of the sort.

If you can point out anyone in this thread that has taken that position, feel free to quote them and have that discussion with them, but I simply want it to be clear that I've taken no such position and don't want to be lumped into any discussion that implies that I have.


----------



## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

Ereth said:


> [...] Her only role in this is her relative attractiveness to male viewers. Her ability to act is totally irrelevant, only whether or not she's "hot" or not. That's the very definition of objectivication.
> [...]


In point of fact, her role in the show IS to be attractive. That's an integral part of the show's premise. However, I do not see *one *comment in this thread that makes your absurd claim that "Kaley's acting ability is irrelevant, only whether she's hot or not." Not one.

I did not find her shorter hair style as attractive as most of her longer hair styles. It's personal preference, and not an indictment of acting ability, for heaven's sake.

I tend to prefer the color blue over the color green. Does that suggest anything? Or could it be that people have likes and dislikes, without necessarily harboring any biases or deep seated prejudices?

I take offense at anyone trying to argue that my preference is somehow an indication that I am some sort of sexist. That's laughable, but annoying.


----------



## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

hummingbird_206 said:


> You do not speak for all people. And you certainly do not speak for all women.


Milo doesn't speak for all people, either. Or all men.

That's kind of the point here.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

murgatroyd said:


> Milo doesn't speak for all people, either. Or all men. That's kind of the point here.


There's a point here?


----------



## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

hummingbird_206 said:


> There's a point here?


Milo seems to think that an actor's fanbase gets to dictate what actors do with their careers.

I am merely pointing out that such a viewpoint is incredibly naive.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

murgatroyd said:


> Milo seems to think that an actor's fanbase gets to dictate what actors do with their careers.
> 
> I am merely pointing out that such a viewpoint is incredibly naive.


Of course an actor's fanbase doesn't get to dictate what they do with their careers but it is incredibly naive to believe that there aren't actors who take what their fans will like or not like into account.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

murgatroyd said:


> Milo seems to think that an actor's fanbase gets to dictate what actors do with their careers.
> 
> I am merely pointing out that such a viewpoint is incredibly naive.


Which would be interesting if anyone in this thread was espousing that opinion. But they're not. You're the only one that keeps bringing up that strawman argument.

Stating that men generally prefer longer hair on women and that an actress cutting her hair may lead to some men finding her less attractive is in absolutely no way the equivalent of saying that an actress can't do anything without the approval of her male fans. For someone who is generally very smart, I don't see how you continue to make this leap.


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

--Carlos V.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Kaley was on Kimmel earlier this week. I was not looking at her hair. 

http://www.travelerstoday.com/articles/12031/20140920/kaley-cuoco-jimmy-kimmel-leaks-scandalous-nude-photo-made-big.htm

Some things were VERY distracting.


----------



## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

milo99 said:


> your brainwaves operate rather uniquely. Since apparently stating statistical facts and my opinions = overbearing lecture.


What do statistical facts have to do with your preference?



> and my clarification was in direct rebuttal to your calling me a hypocrite. i even quoted to what i replied to. if you can't figure that out and how that relates to anything, then there really is no more point in replying to your comments because you obviously take what i say and make it mean whatever it is you want it to.


Wow, how can you not understand that when you said that she can't do something and then said that she can do whatever she wants, that those statements are contradictory.

and Thank you.


----------



## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> But it is entirely up to the male fans and viewers to form their own opinions about the new hairstyle.


This male viewer doesn't like the new hair style.


----------



## ebockelman (Jul 12, 2001)

This is the same Kaley who made statements around how dating the right man was the key to her making it big, and has gone on the record about how great a decision it was to get breast implants at age 18.

I don't think it's too far a stretch for someone to be perplexed at a decision that would (in many opinions, according to survey data) result in lowering her attractiveness. She's placed a very strong importance on being attractive, and it's worked out quite well for her.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

ebockelman said:


> This is the same Kaley who made statements around how dating the right man was the key to her making it big, and has gone on the record about how great a decision it was to get breast implants at age 18.
> 
> I don't think it's too far a stretch for someone to be perplexed at a decision that would (in many opinions, according to survey data) result in lowering her attractiveness. She's placed a very strong importance on being attractive, and it's worked out quite well for her.


The TCF poll has her at 76 not like to 70 like. Seems like a fairly even split.


----------



## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

There's a poll? I've searched and can't find one.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=521283


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Thank you for that.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

betts4 said:


> The TCF poll has her at 76 not like to 70 like. Seems like a fairly even split.


It's a flawed poll that doesn't ask whether one likes the new hairstyle compared to the old. It simply asks whether one likes the new hairstyle. Those are totally different questions. The latter question does nothing to determine whether people preferred the longer hair, which, IMO, was the reason a poll was suggested.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> It's a flawed poll that doesn't ask whether one likes the new hairstyle compared to the old. It simply asks whether one likes the new hairstyle....


Wrong....it asks do you like her short hair; OR, do you NOT like her short hair (which strongly infers you prefer her hair long, the way it used to be). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out....geez.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Wrong....it asks do you like her short hair; OR, do you NOT like her short hair (which strongly infers you prefer her hair long, the way it used to be). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out....geez.


Right. I got that. But as you can see from the discussion in that thread, some people didn't get it.

Personally, I don't dislike the new hairstyle. I just liked the old style better. How would you suggest I answer your poll?


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> It's a flawed poll that doesn't ask whether one likes the new hairstyle compared to the old. It simply asks whether one likes the new hairstyle. Those are totally different questions. The latter question does nothing to determine whether people preferred the longer hair, which, IMO, was the reason a poll was suggested.


Regardless of the way the poll is worded it still sheds no actual light on whether or not men generally prefer longer or shorter hair. A self selecting internet poll on a lower volume website is non-scientific and only reflects the feelings of those who have responded to the poll.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Azlen said:


> Regardless of the way the poll is worded it still sheds no actual light on whether or not men generally prefer longer or shorter hair. A self selecting internet poll on a lower volume website is non-scientific and only reflects the feelings of those who have responded to the poll.


It wasn't intended to be a scientific poll about whether men generally prefer long hair, and nobody claimed or implied that. I think it was just intended to find out whether people preferred Kaley's new hairstyle or her old one. That's it.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ebockelman said:


> This is the same Kaley who made statements around how dating the right man was the key to her making it big, and has gone on the record about how great a decision it was to get breast implants at age 18.
> 
> I don't think it's too far a stretch for someone to be perplexed at a decision that would (in many opinions, according to survey data) result in lowering her attractiveness. She's placed a very strong importance on being attractive, and it's worked out quite well for her.


But once you've made it, you can afford not to care


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> But once you've made it, you can afford not to care


Especially given the new contract they got this offseason and the fact that she's now married.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

ebockelman said:


> I don't think it's too far a stretch for someone to be perplexed at a decision that would (in many opinions, according to survey data) result in lowering her attractiveness. She's placed a very strong importance on being attractive, and it's worked out quite well for her.


She had it cut for a movie role, she offered to wear extensions for the show but after she spoke to the producers and writers it was written in.

From the point of view of the writers it gives them new material, from the point of view of the producers it fits in with the rebooting of her character - which also seems to include a new wardrobe.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/09/15/big-bang-theory-kaley-cuoco-haircut/


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> It wasn't intended to be a scientific poll about whether men generally prefer long hair, and nobody claimed or implied that. I think it was just intended to find out whether people preferred Kaley's new hairstyle or her old one. That's it.


Exactly...


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> ...How would you suggest I answer your poll?


Simple...do you like her new hair style or don't you. Those are the choices (or you don't give a rip...)


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

pgogborn said:


> From the point of view of the writers it gives them new material, from the point of view of the producers it fits in with the rebooting of her character - which also seems to include a new wardrobe.


But no intervention and rehab.


----------



## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

all right, i'll give it one last shot.


scandia101 said:


> What do statistical facts have to do with your preference?


They're the same thing in this case. I stated a statistical fact (most men prefer longer hair), which is also an opinion/preference i share. I defended the factual validity of the majority of men holding this preference, to which people started extrapolating other meanings and intentions of my stating this, such as yourself calling it a lecture an overbearing parent or agent would give.


scandia101 said:


> Wow, how can you not understand that when you said that she can't do something and then said that she can do whatever she wants, that those statements are contradictory.


i can't tell if you honestly don't see it, or if you just aren't fully reading what i'm writing, or if you're just trying to be difficult.

In my original comment, yes, i said "she can do whatever she wants" and I meant that in a sense of she can do whatever she wants_ to herself_ since it was in direct response to someone else saying she can cut her hair if she wants to. I also said originally that she can't do something else- demand that others think a certain way. after you said i was being a hypocrite, i clarified these. To which you responded with befuddlement about what it had to do with anything.

So in conclusion, saying she can do whatever she wants to herself, and that she cannot expect to control what others think is not anything ground breaking, and it's definitely not hypocritical or contradictory.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

pgogborn said:


> She had it cut for a movie role, she offered to wear extensions for the show but after she spoke to the producers and writers it was written in.
> 
> From the point of view of the writers it gives them new material, from the point of view of the producers it fits in with the rebooting of her character - which also seems to include a new wardrobe.
> 
> http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/09/15/big-bang-theory-kaley-cuoco-haircut/


Sometimes new/different -> fresh.

It is sometimes hard for a sitcom to remain fresh and not stale/boring.
(Some might argue the BBT had already become stale/boring..)


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## Agatha Mystery (Feb 12, 2002)

I like her new hair.

Now, back to the episode - I honestly thought Sheldon was being honest about wanting to have coitus with Amy. I didn't catch on to the gag. I know he's pulled that one before, but it still got me. Made me feel a little bit stupid, though.


----------



## Hank (May 31, 2000)

Agatha Mystery said:


> I like her new hair.
> 
> Now, back to the episode - I honestly thought Sheldon was being honest about wanting to have coitus with Amy. I didn't catch on to the gag. I know he's pulled that one before, but it still got me. Made me feel a little bit stupid, though.


What? Talking about BBT? What are you thinking??!

Yes, same thing happened to me.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Agatha Mystery said:


> I like her new hair.
> 
> Now, back to the episode - I honestly thought Sheldon was being honest about wanting to have coitus with Amy. I didn't catch on to the gag. I know he's pulled that one before, but it still got me. Made me feel a little bit stupid, though.


I fell for it as well. Then again, it sounded like the entire studio audience did too, so I don't feel as bad about it.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Agatha Mystery said:


> I like her new hair.
> 
> Now, back to the episode - I honestly thought Sheldon was being honest about wanting to have coitus with Amy. I didn't catch on to the gag. I know he's pulled that one before, but it still got me. Made me feel a little bit stupid, though.


Hey, I laughed at the reveal.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I liked her hair.


Spoiler



But not the next week. Looked horrible.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

ct1 said:


> (Some might argue the BBT had already become stale/boring..)


Not for me; the show is as interesting as ever to me.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> I liked her hair.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Ditto.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

> (Some might argue the BBT had already become stale/boring..


yeah, Sheldon and Amy are totally stale and boring. I'm getting really tired of Sheldon being Sheldon being a DB.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

This was the worst episode of BBT to date. I base that on the fact that it was way too easy to foretell what the TCF tangent would be for the episode. 

And my take, I think she looked better with the longer hair.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

milo99 said:


> No, it really isn't. It's sociology.


If your point is that our society is sexist, that's a valid point. If your point is that by participating in that sexism you are doing nothing wrong, that is not a valid point.



> again, no it's not. Discussing whether or not someone is attractive is not objectification. Objectifying her would be if we suggested that that was her only purpose in life. The act of discussing one's attractiveness is far from it. Just because you looked at the discussion and interpreted it as us suggesting that, does not make it so.


You repeatedly said that you don't understand why a pretty woman with long hair would cut it, because men prefer longer hair. And when the correct answer "its not about what men think" is provided, you don't understand it, and simply repeat your position.

Whether men in general (or specific) prefer longer hair is completely unimportant. Kaley is not there to be eye candy for you. Her hair style does not affect her ability to play her part. Indeed, the fact that she changed her hair style is character development. It's a normal part of a woman's life. That you are so baffled by this is disappointing.

Let me clarify for you, because even though the ladies have already told you this, you don't seem to understand it - Women do not exist solely for the pleasure of men. They do not have to take into account what men think for every action they take.

Your stated position, that there are consequences for not choosing to take the path that leads to maximum attractiveness to males is a sexist position.

Imagine, for a moment, if the discussion about last nights football game focused on Tom Brady's hairstyle instead of the interceptions and fumbles.

"Well, Tom, you played rather poorly, and were benched midway through the game. But what everybody really wants to talk about is Why did you cut your hair? You know that women prefer your old hair style, and the NFL is trying to reach out and gain more female viewers and you cutting your hair may seriously hamper that effort. Why on earth would you choose to do something like that? Don't you care about being as attractive as possible to TV Viewers? Have you considered that your benching may have to do with your hairstyle change? You could lose your job if you aren't attractive enough, you know..."

Nobody would accept that, yet somehow, treating women that way is normal and accepted and some of you get offended that some of us might think that maybe that's just not right.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Imagine, for a moment, if the discussion about last nights football game focused on Tom Brady's hairstyle instead of the interceptions and fumbles.
> 
> "Well, Tom, you played rather poorly, and were benched midway through the game. But what everybody really wants to talk about is Why did you cut your hair? You know that women prefer your old hair style, and the NFL is trying to reach out and gain more female viewers and you cutting your hair may seriously hamper that effort. Why on earth would you choose to do something like that? Don't you care about being as attractive as possible to TV Viewers? Have you considered that your benching may have to do with your hairstyle change? You could lose your job if you aren't attractive enough, you know..."


You obviously haven't seen Super Bowl Media Day have you?


----------



## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

Azlen said:


> You obviously haven't seen Super Bowl Media Day have you?


He not only hasn't seen the media frenzy on that day, where nonfootball topics abound as if pursued by tabloid paparazzi, he clearly hasn't read the thread and prefers to argue against statements that nobody ever made.

It's getting funnier and funnier.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

It is pretty ridiculous how far people are going to try and fabricate straw man arguments to justify their misplaced and unwarranted outrage.


----------



## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> It is pretty ridiculous how far people are going to try and fabricate straw man arguments to justify their misplaced and unwarranted outrage.


I honestly thought his posts were satirical, but no... 

Apparently, trying to debate the points actually posted is either too difficult, or not interesting; those are the only reasons I can think of why he would try to argue against positions _he himself makes_, but tries to attribute to others.

I guess it's easy when you have a debate with yourself: you can control the points each side makes. Far more difficult when you actually have to consider the positions the other side truly makes.

But, maybe I'm participating in the societal prejudices by using logic. Shame on me.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ereth said:


> If your point is that our society is sexist, that's a valid point. If your point is that by participating in that sexism you are doing nothing wrong, that is not a valid point.
> 
> You repeatedly said that you don't understand why a pretty woman with long hair would cut it, because men prefer longer hair. And when the correct answer "its not about what men think" is provided, you don't understand it, and simply repeat your position.
> 
> ...


I don't like finding myself on the other side of your argument (again)...but I disagree.

I think your points are valid if we're talking about a "normal" person (my wife, for example). But this person is not "normal". She would not have this current job if she were unattractive. She is not a particularly good actress, even. Her physical attributes are absolutely part of the job description.

I married a woman with hair down to her bottom. She is an IT professional and finally cut it even shorter than Penny's is right now. I prefered her with long hair but I totally understand her decision and support it. But my wife's job prospects have nothing to do with her looks. All women are not treated equally. It doesn't make us sexist to compartmentalize this issue and say it's important when it matters and not important when it doesn't.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Anubys said:


> But my wife's job prospects have nothing to do with her looks.


This is a good thing.



> All women are not treated equally.


Do you believe this to be a good thing?



> It doesn't make us sexist to compartmentalize this issue and say it's important when it matters and not important when it doesn't.


This is the blinders. Of course it's sexist. The fact that it matters at all is sexist.

It wasn't that long ago that a woman's attractiveness affected almost all jobs. It's a double edged sword, in that men, in general, didn't take women seriously in the workplace, especially if they were attractive, yet they would only hire them if they were attractive.

Someone recently was complaining about "ugly cheerleaders" in another thread. Another place where appearance is the only thing that matters, apparently.

In the furor over how much Sarah Palin spent on wardrobe for the presidential campaign, Erin Burnett at CNN pointed out that Wolf Blitzer can wear the same wool suit every day, but if she were to wear the same clothes too frequently, CNN gets complaints, that there is, still, a double standard.

Attractive women are held to a different standard. I imagine this thread would not have had much to say if Amy Farrah Fowler had cut her hair, as she is not sexualized by the audience.

Look, I like pretty women, too. I agree that Kaley Cuoco-Sweeting is attractive. I just think the whole "OMG! The sky is falling! She cut her hair" is ridiculous. And the suggestion that the shows ratings will fall because of it is one of the saddest things I've ever heard. People are really that shallow? That's a horrible condemnation of our society.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LOL...that was me that complained about the Redskins' ugly cheerleaders! Which is actually my point.

I don't objectify women I work with. I don't evaluate their boobs or their hair or their clothes...etc.

But you can't look or think about all women/men the same. I come early enough to work that hookers are still on the street. I feel sorry for them, but I don't respect them as I would my colleagues. Maybe that makes me a monster, I say it makes me human.

As for actors, models, cheerleaders...etc. If you're in a profession that demands that you look pretty, I think it's ok for me to comment on whether I think you're pretty or not (male or female).

Heck, it's what she WANTS us to do. She wants us to make her more famous by talking about her.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Being attractive in the entertainment industry is not entirely sexist, it applies to men as well. Women like eye candy too.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Azlen said:


> ....Women like eye candy too.


But not NEARLY to the extent men do....my wife can attest to that.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> But not NEARLY to the extent men do....my wife can attest to that.


poked her own eyes out, eh?


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> But not NEARLY to the extent men do....my wife can attest to that.


Tell that to my wife. The only reason she watches a number of the shows she does is because of the good looking guys on it.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I don't disagree that many women enjoy eye candy, but, as I stated, not nearly to the extent men do....how many "(insert male actor's name here) is fat" threads do we see here on TCF?


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Look, I like pretty women, too. I agree that Kaley Cuoco-Sweeting is attractive. I just think the whole "OMG! The sky is falling! She cut her hair" is ridiculous.


Are the people here who think she looked prettier before she hacked off her hair really reacting on a sky-is-falling level about it?


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

The gender difference in how much attractiveness plays into it, and what is attractive, is no different in the entertainment industry than anywhere else: it's a direct result of what kind of attraction serves the evolutionary purpose of selfish genes in different genders. Genetically you have to select for a mate most likely to carry your genes into subsequent generations, based only on what you can easily see. Looking fit, healthy, and symmetrical thus works for both genders since it is a good indication both of the ability to produce a child, and of that child's chance to survive. But a selfish gene in a male body has to also consider likelihood of having a child and surviving childbirth, which means it skews, hard, towards youth and indications of fertility. Whereas a selfish gene in a female body doesn't need youth from its mate -- the male's part in making a child is easy and can be done at almost any age -- and in fact being older can help since it suggests the ability to live a long time.

I'm oversimplifying, of course, but you can follow the logic from there. If you do, virtually everything about the ridiculous notions humans have about attractiveness, body image, etc. will turn out to be hardwired, and exactly the same today as they were a million years ago when we were hunting and gathering nomads, notwithstanding all our civilization. (Notable exceptions, like our modern obsession with skinniness, are notable for being exceptions. For most of human history that was rightly considered unattractive, as it indicated being unable to provide for yourself, or being ill.)


----------



## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

Hunter Green said:


> The gender difference in how much attractiveness plays into it, and what is attractive, is no different in the entertainment industry than anywhere else: it's a direct result of what kind of attraction serves the evolutionary purpose of selfish genes in different genders. Genetically you have to select for a mate most likely to carry your genes into subsequent generations, based only on what you can easily see. Looking fit, healthy, and symmetrical thus works for both genders since it is a good indication both of the ability to produce a child, and of that child's chance to survive. But a selfish gene in a male body has to also consider likelihood of having a child and surviving childbirth, which means it skews, hard, towards youth and indications of fertility. Whereas a selfish gene in a female body doesn't need youth from its mate -- the male's part in making a child is easy and can be done at almost any age -- and in fact being older can help since it suggests the ability to live a long time.
> 
> I'm oversimplifying, of course, but you can follow the logic from there. If you do, virtually everything about the ridiculous notions humans have about attractiveness, body image, etc. will turn out to be hardwired, and exactly the same today as they were a million years ago when we were hunting and gathering nomads, notwithstanding all our civilization. (Notable exceptions, like our modern obsession with skinniness, are notable for being exceptions. For most of human history that was rightly considered unattractive, as it indicated being unable to provide for yourself, or being ill.)


I can almost see Sheldon saying this, and he said something akin in a discussion during the Howard/Bernadette episode about their third date.

Your explanation, however, doesn't have Sheldon's air of disdain for anyone to whom this wasn't self evident, nor his misplaced, haughty aura of superiority.


----------



## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

timckelley said:


> Are the people here who think she looked prettier before she hacked off her hair really reacting on a sky-is-falling level about it?


You noticed it, too, eh?

In reading over the two threads in which Penny's hair is a topic, the posters who prefer Penny's longer hair styles tend to be matter of fact about it. As far as I can tell, I see no extreme emotional reaction, no "sky-is-falling" intensity about those who don't care as much for her short hair.

In fact, the intense, almost angry reaction tended to come from some posters on the other side. Some of the most emotional responses came as a challenge to those who like her hair longer. It wasn't a "I like her hair longer/I like her hair shorter" issue to them. It was a "I like her hair longer/You have no right to express an opinion about what she does, and if you do your a sexist misogynist."

Kinda baffling.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

So a question that is only partially hair-related: the actress seems to have kind of a round face (very cute)...the kind that, as a child, she probably got a lot of "pinch her cheeks" from grandparents.

It seems to me that the shorter haircut accentuates her chubby cheeks. I can't decide if I like that or not...It's kind of like liking something but then is too much of it better?


----------



## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Let me clarify for you, because even though the ladies have already told you this, you don't seem to understand it - Women do not exist solely for the pleasure of men.


I get that 100%. and nothing i've said in this thread is to the contrary. i'd love for you to show me where i said anything of the like.



> Kaley is not there to be eye candy for you. Her hair style does not affect her ability to play her part. Indeed, the fact that she changed her hair style is character development. It's a normal part of a woman's life. That you are so baffled by this is disappointing.


Nothing i've stated suggested any of this, and my bafflement has nothing to do with this. I have said nothing about how her attractiveness impacts her worth as a person, her abilities as an actress, or anything of the like. YOU projected those conclusions onto my statements. For someone who doesn't like others to "FYP" one of your posts because it undermines your original thought, you're attributing a lot of thoughts to me that i never expressed. Pretty hypocritical.



> You repeatedly said that you don't understand why a pretty woman with long hair would cut it, because men prefer longer hair. And when the correct answer "its not about what men think" is provided, you don't understand it, and simply repeat your position.
> 
> Whether men in general (or specific) prefer longer hair is completely unimportant.
> 
> ...


did you miss this, my 2nd post in the thread?



milo99 said:


> ScubaCat said:
> 
> 
> > Remind me again why women should care what most guys prefer?
> ...


if a woman DOES care about her attractiveness to men, then it is inaccurate to suggest that she does not care, and incongruous to say that men's opinions on her attractiveness are meaningless to her. By definition, she CARES, and thus it only makes sense that she should consider her actions as to how that would affect her attractiveness. She does not HAVE to do so. She can consider it and then choose to ignore it. That's her prerogative. But not even considering it is inconsistent with what she values.

Just like in subsequent post i stated that it'd be wise for men to check with women's opinions before shaving their heads, unless they also don't care. But if they do care about their attractiveness, it doesn't make sense for them not to consider how their actions will impact it.

Your suggestion that it's sexist to point out simple cause and effect is rather ludicrous. Just because you don't agree with what those consequences may be, well, that's what is irrelevant. It doesn't make them less true.



> Nobody would accept that, yet somehow, treating women that way is normal and accepted and some of you get offended that some of us might think that maybe that's just not right.


No, what i think is not right is for you to suggest that this discussion is sexist because we're talking about the cause of one's actions to the effect on another and herself. We're not offended, except perhaps when we're attacked personally and haphazardly labeled as sexist when that is truly not the case. it's irresponsible for one to do that.

You like analogies, so here's another. if George Clooney decided to get a face tattoo, i'd come in and say the EXACT same things about him. "i don't understand why an attractive guy would get a face tat. Most women don't like it. he's an actor, and probably cares about his attractiveness, so it doesn't make sense to me. Can he do it if he wants? Sure. But he should understand the potential consequences of taking such an action."

is that sexist of me?

of course not. is it because there's a double standard, you can't be sexist against men? of course not. It's not sexist because i'm not objectifying, or making a statement to their worth as a person or actor. I'm simply stating an observational fact.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

MikeCC said:


> You noticed it, too, eh?
> 
> In reading over the two threads in which Penny's hair is a topic, the posters who prefer Penny's longer hair styles tend to be matter of fact about it. As far as I can tell, I see no extreme emotional reaction, no "sky-is-falling" intensity about those who don't care as much for her short hair.
> 
> ...


i'm just glad i'm not the only one.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

MikeCC said:


> I can almost see Sheldon saying this, and he said something akin in a discussion during the Howard/Bernadette episode about their third date.
> 
> Your explanation, however, doesn't have Sheldon's air of disdain for anyone to whom this wasn't self evident, nor his misplaced, haughty aura of superiority.


I'm going to take both of those points as compliments.


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