# Rolled back to 20.3 thread



## bunjicat

Woke this morning to find out the Roamio rolled its self back to 20.3. But none of the mini's did! So not a single mini in my house works! WTF Tivo? All of them say software up to date. I am getting tired of this crap.


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## DaveDFW

My Roamio rolled back (20.3.8) but my Mini did not (20.4.1). Despite the version mismatch my Mini is still operating correctly.


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## bunjicat

Hmm. My mini's all say can't find dvr. Also, Several deleted programs came back which also deleted several new programs from my dvr. This is FUBAR.


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## bunjicat

Restarted the mini's and they seem to connect ok. The issue has been escalated with Tivo. We will see what happens.


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## bunjicat

All my customized guides are gone. Have to redo all channel lists. Call to tech support got me a giant shoulder shrug from Tivo. :down:


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## HerronScott

I think this has to be a first at least that I'm aware of (rollback of version).

Scott


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## timstack8969

The roll back happened last night on my Premiere. Lost all Favorite channels, DVR capacity was FULL (100%) had to delete all my shows as far back as Christmas time and Clock was wrong (had rerun Guide Set up)


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## aaronwt

Crap!! I hope mine didn't roll back. My TiVos had been fine with the newer update.


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## bunjicat

This has huge implications for Tivo. What this says is there systems in place are faulty. Was this someone with a fat finger or is this software code in place that is going rogue. This should NEVER happen. You should all be very worried because this could happen to ANYONE.


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## midas

I just blocked all network access for my Roamio until this gets figured out. 

I'm actually in the process of moving and will be disconnecting all my equipment tomorrow morning and I'll have it disconnected until some time Monday. So I'm not really in the mood for a disaster right now.


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## tomhorsley

bunjicat said:


> This has huge implications for Tivo. What this says is there systems in place are faulty. Was this someone with a fat finger or is this software code in place that is going rogue. This should NEVER happen. You should all be very worried because this could happen to ANYONE.


If only it could have happened to me when we got the 20.3 update . The pre-20.3 version worked infinitely better while I still had the old cable card firmware. My TiVo was a mostly useless pile of junk for the months between 20.3 being pushed to it and Comcast finally being willing to update the firmware.


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## Dan203

I've never heard of them rolling back a software version before. I didn't even think it was possible. Even when I've participated in betas they always warn that once you get the software the only way for them to roll back is for you to mail your entire TiVo to them so they can wipe the drive and reinstall the old version.


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## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> I've never heard of them rolling back a software version before. I didn't even think it was possible. Even when I've participated in betas they always warn that once you get the software the only way for them to roll back is for you to mail your entire TiVo to them so they can wipe the drive and reinstall the old version.


Apparently they lied.


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## aristoBrat

HerronScott said:


> I think this has to be a first at least that I'm aware of (rollback of version).


Same here.


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## dlfl

Probably a new feature available only on Roamios.


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## rainwater

tarheelblue32 said:


> Apparently they lied.


No they didn't. In the past they have never been able to roll back software. If they could of done it, they wouldn't have asked some customers to send their hardware in to get the new software. Apparently, they are able to do it with the current software.


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## NorthAlabama

dlfl said:


> Probably a new feature available only on Roamios.


timstack8969 posted a rollback yesterday to the premiere 20.4.1 thread.

not having any issues, and don't want to lose my settings - hope i don't rollback.


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## kbmb

Crap.....so now I have to go back AGAIN through all my Season Passes and un-pad now that the back-to-back padding glitch is likely back?

WTF Tivo?

-Kevin


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## morac

rainwater said:


> No they didn't. In the past they have never been able to roll back software. If they could of done it, they wouldn't have asked some customers to send their hardware in to get the new software. Apparently, they are able to do it with the current software.


I think rolling back software has always been possible in certain cases, they just never did it out of policy. There must be something very bad in the 20.4.1 release for TiVo to revert it.

Speaking as a database software developer, as long as the underlying data structures haven't changed in the update, there's no technically reason that rolling back software can't be done.

In layman's terms, think of a software update as changing an object, where changing code is like painting an object while changing the data structures is like carving/whittling the object. If there's just a code change (taking red object and painting it blue), it's fairly simply to simply to revert the change (paint it red again). If there was a database update (object was square and then carved into a circle), it's a lot harder to revert (take all the carved off junks of the glue them back on the circle to make a square again).

Since the 20.4.1 update didn't have one of those "this can take up to an hour or more" screens after the update, it can be assumed that there was no database format update so therefore it was just a code change.


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## kbmb

morac said:


> Since the 20.4.1 update didn't have one of those "this can take up to an hour or more" screens after the update, it can be assumed that there was no database format update so therefore it was just a code change.


Both my Plus and Basic had that screen. It didn't start with that one, but it did show up on both during the update.

-Kevin


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## kbmb

Also wondering if the rollback is targeting specific units? TSNs? Neither of mine have rolled back yet, and I just forced 3 calls to Tivo.

-Kevin


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## tarheelblue32

morac said:


> Since the 20.4.1 update didn't have one of those "this can take up to an hour or more" screens after the update, it can be assumed that there was no database format update so therefore it was just a code change.


I'm pretty sure that I remember seeing that screen after the update.


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## morac

kbmb said:


> Both my Plus and Basic had that screen. It didn't start with that one, but it did show up on both during the update.
> 
> -Kevin


If that's the case, rolling back could potentially cause problems.

That could possibly explain why some people have reported deleted shows undeleting themselves as well as the favorite and select channel lists resetting.


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## kbmb

morac said:


> If that's the case, rolling back could potentially cause problems.
> 
> That could possibly explain why some people have reported deleted shows undeleting themselves as well as the favorite and select channel lists resetting.


Yeah honestly, starting to think maybe the rollback was not intentional? I figure that it would have to be some pretty serious issues to take the chance to rollback people if it's going to potentially cause issues with recordings.

Would figure they would rather push out a new update to fix the problems before rolling back.

I wasn't having any major issues with 20.4.1 other than the high CPU loads on MRT.

-Kevin


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## tarheelblue32

kbmb said:


> Also wondering if the rollback is targeting specific units? TSNs? Neither of mine have rolled back yet, and I just forced 3 calls to Tivo.
> 
> -Kevin


Maybe they halted the rollback due to the reports of problems. Mine hasn't rolled back yet either, but it isn't scheduled to connect to the TiVo server until around 4 p.m. EDT. I haven't yet had any problems with the software update, so I'm a little wary of this rollback since this is apparently the first time TiVo has ever attempted a rollback and it seems like they don't quite have all the kinks worked out of their rollback system.


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## ncfoster

My Roamio is still on 24.1. I haven't checked the others yet. Now, I'm afraid of what the next few days will bring. All I know is that everything better be kosher by Sunday night.


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## andyf

I was Pending Restart on my Roamio and 2 Premieres. Bit the bullet and forced the reboot.


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## alleybj

I had gotten the update but now after the restart I've got the screen telling me that it may take an hour to install another "update"


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## andyf

andyf said:


> I was Pending Restart on my Roamio and 2 Premieres. Bit the bullet and forced the reboot.


Reboot and re-installed 20.3.8. Now it's stuck on Acquiring Channel Information. I'll wait for a while. Oh it's Done and yes, all my favorite channels are gone.

Edit: It's not just favorite channels, but Channels I Receive seems to be messed up too.


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## kbmb

andyf said:


> Reboot and re-installed 20.3.8. Now it's stuck on Acquiring Channel Information. I'll wait for a while. Oh it's Done and yes, all my favorite channels are gone.


What about selected channels? Did you mess up the channels you selected to show in the guide?

-Kevin


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## wrc2376

What the heck are they doing? I am out of town and all the shows I have watched and deleted are back. The disk is 100% full and I don't even know what has not recorded. I guess I will have to spend some iPhone time to fix.


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## HenryFarpolo

My plus rolled-back but my MINI'S did not. My mini's are linked to my XL4. All of my recently deleted came back from limbo. Fortunately I cleaned the recently deleted file a couple of days ago so there were only a few.

What is most troubling is that if this wasn't accidental, why the lack of communication from TIVO?


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## andyf

wrc2376 said:


> What the heck are they doing? I am out of town and all the shows I have watched and deleted are back. The disk is 100% full and I don't even know what has not recorded. I guess I will have to spend some iPhone time to fix.


The entire "Deleted Items" folder has become undeleted. Shows 100% full.

Also, after deleting all the shows that should have been deleted I see the remaining shows are showing the recording a day later than they actually did. Shows "NCIS" as recorded on Wed 3/19 etc. Of course NCIS is always on a Tuesday.

What a Cluster F***!


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## tatergator1

For those seeing all their deleted items returning, I assume you had suggestions turned off? Seems like the only way the Deleted Items folder would have more than 1 or 2 shows in it were if you didn't have Suggestions constantly cycling what's occupying the free space on the hard drive.


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## tarheelblue32

I just went through and permanently deleted all of my recently deleted shows. There were 63 of them. If they had all undeleted themselves after the rollback I will potentially be getting in about an hour, it would have been chaos. And yes, I have suggested recordings turned off.


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## ncfoster

Ok. I've got over 400 deleted shows to get rid of before the rollback hits me. Is there a way to do a global clear, and not have to individually delete each one? This rollback sounds horrible. Margaret, can we sign up on a "nonpriority list" to not get rolled back until...ever? :-/


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## andyf

tarheelblue32 said:


> I just went through and permanently deleted all of my recently deleted shows. There were 63 of them. If they had all undeleted themselves after the rollback I will potentially be getting in about an hour, it would have been chaos. And yes, I have suggested recordings turned off.


That may be a good idea. Too late for me but for others.....

I do have suggestions turned off.


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## bunjicat

Does anyone have shows that were not deleted before and now are deleted? Like the rest of you many shows came back but it looks like the Tivo made room for them by deleting shows that were in the queue. I never bother marking keep permanently because I rarely go over 50% usage. Oh. And I do have suggestions turned off. FUBAR.


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## tatergator1

ncfoster said:


> Ok. I've got over 400 deleted shows to get rid of before the rollback hits me. Is there a way to do a global clear, and not have to individually delete each one? This rollback sounds horrible. Margaret, can we sign up on a "nonpriority list" to not get rolled back until...ever? :-/


Pushing the "Clear" button will delete an entire folder of recordings of the same show when you have Groups turned on. You could try hitting the "Clear" button while highlighting the Recently Deleted folder. Not sure if it will work, but worth a try.


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## ncfoster

tatergator1 said:


> Pushing the "Clear" button will delete an entire folder of recordings of the same show when you have Groups turned on. You could try hitting the "Clear" button while highlighting the Recently Deleted folder. Not sure if it will work, but worth a try.


Yeah, I had tried that, and it didn't work. That would be too easy.

In fairness, if not for this Tivopocalypse, I can see no reason that I'd ever want to do this...


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## bunjicat

Got a response from Tivo. They completley ignored the question as to how this happened. They only stated that I will receive the update. 
"At the present time we have scheduled that your TiVo box receive the latest software updates available " Amazing.


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## Philmatic

You all need to relax, lol. Other than losing a new screen, what was *lost* here?

It may be a little embarrassing for TiVo, but since they were still in the priority rollout phase, the general public would be unaware of the rollout.

I'd say the process worked perfectly, the priority rollout found issues that QA, internal testing and beta testing did not. So they rolled it back.


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## tarheelblue32

Philmatic said:


> I'd say the process worked perfectly, the priority rollout found issues that QA, internal testing and beta testing did not. So they rolled it back.


We have also discovered flaws in their rollback process. Something else that they can work on fixing. Job security for TiVo's software coders.


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## kbmb

Philmatic said:


> You all need to relax, lol. Other than losing a new screen, what was *lost* here?
> 
> It may be a little embarrassing for TiVo, but since they were still in the priority rollout phase, the general public would be unaware of the rollout.
> 
> I'd say the process worked perfectly, the priority rollout found issues that QA, internal testing and beta testing did not. So they rolled it back.


That would be the exact reason to NOT rollback. If it's only Priority signups.....geeks like us.....you think they would just let it ride while they did an official fix. Take it on a case by case basis. Other than the random reboots, I'm not hearing any major show stopping bugs in 20.4.1.

-Kevin


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## tatergator1

What makes me wonder about this roll-back is that it comes only a month or so after the botched TivoHD updates which sent the Australian TivoHD code to a number of US TivoHD's, essentially bricking them.

It certainly doesn't instill much confidence, especially since there was no forewarning from Margret.


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## bunjicat

Philmatic said:


> You all need to relax, lol. Other than losing a new screen, what was *lost* here?
> 
> It may be a little embarrassing for TiVo, but since they were still in the priority rollout phase, the general public would be unaware of the rollout.
> 
> I'd say the process worked perfectly, the priority rollout found issues that QA, internal testing and beta testing did not. So they rolled it back.


Umm. No they didn't. I am in talks with Tivo right now and they clearly did not intend for this to happen. Apparently your time is worth nothing because I have better things to do then [email protected]#$%ing with my Tivo.


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## NorthAlabama

whew! daily call completed, no rollback. sent an email to margret requesting to be placed on a "no rollback" list.


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## ajwees41

timstack8969 said:


> The roll back happened last night on my Premiere. Lost all Favorite channels, DVR capacity was FULL (100%) had to delete all my shows as far back as Christmas time and Clock was wrong (had rerun Guide Set up)


my Premieres haven't rolled back I was on the priority list.


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## jwbelcher

bunjicat said:


> Umm. No they didn't. I am in talks with Tivo right now and they clearly did not intend for this to happen. Apparently your time is worth nothing because I have better things to do then [email protected]#$%ing with my Tivo.


Assuming your talking to a CSR, I'd recommend waiting to hear from Margret for an update before wasting your time.


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## cherry ghost

KMTTG is great for clearing out the Deleted folder


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## tarheelblue32

I forced my Roamio to connect to the TiVo servers at 4:01 EDT and did not receive the rollback. I'm kind of glad, since I haven't experienced any problems with the 20.4.1 update yet.


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## MisterWho

Philmatic said:


> You all need to relax, lol. Other than losing a new screen, what was *lost* here?
> 
> It may be a little embarrassing for TiVo, but since they were still in the priority rollout phase, the general public would be unaware of the rollout.
> 
> I'd say the process worked perfectly, the priority rollout found issues that QA, internal testing and beta testing did not. So they rolled it back.


I haven't got home to check whether my plus has rolled back but I had received the 20.4.1 WITHOUT requesting I be put on the priority list.


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## jrtroo

bunjicat said:


> Umm. No they didn't. I am in talks with Tivo right now and they clearly did not intend for this to happen. Apparently your time is worth nothing because I have better things to do then [email protected]#$%ing with my Tivo.


You are "in talks with Tivo"? Talking with a CSR on an issue like this probably does not mean much. They just want to get you off the phone.


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## moonscape

bunjicat said:


> I am in talks with Tivo right now and they clearly did not intend for this to happen.


That's encouraging for some of us, but really awful for those affected.

I forced a connection so I could deal with the rollback while I'm not recording anything, but thankfully am still on 20.4.1 and from what you're saying will remain so.


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## moonscape

jrtroo said:


> Talking with a CSR on an issue like this probably does not mean much.


Good point. It would be nice to get a statement from Margret ...


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## DeltaOne

MisterWho said:


> I haven't got home to check whether my plus has rolled back but I had received the 20.4.1 WITHOUT requesting I be put on the priority list.


Same here.

Two TiVo Roamio Pluses here (myself and adult son) and two Minis. We decided to wait for the general roll-out. Both Roamios were updated (son forced a connection, mine was updated when I got home from work).

I then forced connections on the two Minis -- no update.

The two Roamios have been performing normally with the update. Can't wait to get home in an hour and see what version my Roamio is running...


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## midas

cherry ghost said:


> KMTTG is great for clearing out the Deleted folder


Thanks for the reminder. I hadn't thought about that.


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## kbmb

This doesn't sound reassuring:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/454718829029892098


> @tivodesign What's with the software rolling back? Care to comment on TCF?





> @netnothing I'm checking into it.


-Kevin


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## nooneuknow

cherry ghost said:


> KMTTG is great for clearing out the Deleted folder


Yes, I'd be very mad, if it weren't for KMTTG.

It took about 5 minutes to clear ~300 to 500 deleted items (each) on three Roamios, and 99% of that 5 minutes was just letting KMTTG clear them out.

Ctrl-A to select all, then press permanently delete.

Don't try to do it on more than one TiVo at a time, as it (in my case) didn't work to try and do them all. Still, only ~5 minutes total, to wait for one to finish, move on to the next, wait, then I did the third TiVo, easy-peasy, and done.

Perhaps multiple instances of KMTTG running could do multiple, concurrently, but that might have taken longer.


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## morac

Margaret is requesting TSNs from people who's boxes rolled back. I don't know if mine did or not since I'm not home right now.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/454721402474471424


> @Morac Please email me your TSN if it reverted. margret at tivo dot com


Edit:

Checked my router logs and my TiVo boxes didn't download enough data (only a few MB) to have downloaded a software update (yet?).


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## bunjicat

jwbelcher said:


> Assuming your talking to a CSR, I'd recommend waiting to hear from Margret for an update before wasting your time.


Nope. It was upgraded to Level 2 support.


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## kbmb

Can also confirm that the rollback should NOT be happening:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/454725147748884480


> @netnothing Nothing should be rolling back. I need TSNs of boxes that appear to have been rolled back. margret at tivo dot com


Everyone who was rolled back should email Margret!

-Kevin


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## alleybj

Does she have a published email?


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## kbmb

alleybj said:


> Does she have a published email?


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/member.php?u=198507
[email protected]

-Kevin


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## anthonymoody

What a clusterF. I disconnected my Ethernet cable just to be sure. I show having contacted the service early this morning with no roll back thank god.


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## MisterTWo

cherry ghost said:


> KMTTG is great for clearing out the Deleted folder


Thanks for the heads up, I just used KMTTG to delete the 385 shows in my deleted folder before my Roamio rolled back.


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## JGC650I

Both my Roamios connected to service early this afternoon per their normal schedule before I saw these posts. Both reverted back to 20.3. Was able to clear deleted before the restart, but couldn't stop the channel list reset. What a drag, that's a lot of channel list updating to redo once this is fixed.


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## DeltaOne

DeltaOne said:


> Can't wait to get home in an hour and see what version my Roamio is running...


I'm home...still running 20.4.1. Next connection to TiVo is scheduled for 9:30 am Saturday morning.


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## NorthAlabama

JGC650I said:


> Both my Roamios...reverted back to 20.3...


please email your tsn's to "margret at tivo dot com" (see posts 60 & 62)


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## JGC650I

NorthAlabama said:


> please email your tsn's to "margret at tivo dot com" (see posts 60 & 62)


Already had before I posted above.


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## HerronScott

Is it possible that the TiVo's that reverted actually just flipped back to the pre-upgrade partition? Would this explain deleted shows coming back?

Scott


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## NorthAlabama

who knows, i _don't_ want the rollback, and i'm starting to lose faith in tivo's ability to address the current messes.

i'm pondering whether or not to disable my network connection and deal with the pain involved while they figure out what's going on.


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## aaronwt

Crap!! It looks like my Roamio Pro had a pending restart. So I'm guessing it is the rollback.


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## aaronwt

Yes it was the rollback. I rebooted and now My Shows list is at 99%. I just sent Margret and email.
My Roamio Basic didn't get the rollback. I do wish it would have been the basic instead.


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## nooneuknow

HerronScott said:


> Is it possible that the TiVo's that reverted actually just flipped back to the pre-upgrade partition? Would this explain deleted shows coming back?
> 
> Scott


Applies to Roamios only: There no longer is an alternate partition. It's now a partition where the software downloads to, gets verified, prepared, then written to the flash. There is no going back unless the TiVo downloads the prior version again.

KickStart 52 used to write the current software to the alternate partition, then change the boot sector to make it the active partition. This was officially called an "Emergency Software Reinstall", until the Roamio's design.

KS52 No longer works, due to the flash always being the primary (destination) software location.

On Roamios, and Premieres, I've always experienced the deleted items coming back, when I would choose to clear and delete the guide data and program information, so I could download it fresh and unfragmented, without any corruption. It's a great way to fix when garbage collection fails, and the TiVo can't load what the scheduled service connections provide. It also cleans out the history and "won't record" entries, cleaning up quite a bit of things that can get fragmented, corrupted, etc. The downside is it also forgets what has been recorded in the past, so repeat shows can wind up being recorded again. The deleted items going back where they were is only a downside if you have many, and forget to clear them out. I recommend KMTTG for that.

I don't claim to know everything about what is different with the Roamio. So far, the reports of a download, followed by "pending restart", then the "rollback", supports that somehow that Roamio was able to/directed to download the prior software. Not an entire supporting of what I've said, but a good indication I'm in the ballpark, at least. It sounds like yet another problem on TiVo's side, like sending out New Zealand software to U.S. TiVo HDs. Hopefully, TiVo hasn't just created another situation where the only option is to have them replace the units affected.

On Roamios, if TiVo fixes things on their end, I would think dropping in a blank drive, just might prompt a Roamio to download the correct software. Then again, I don't recall anybody trying a freshly-imaged drive on those TiVo HDs, to see if they would then download the U.S. version... Correct me if I am wrong on that.


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## aaronwt

Crap!! I have zero shows in the To Do list. I should have over one hundred shows scheduled to record.


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## JSearfoss

I just had a reboot and roll back. My To Do List was also empty, all channel settings are gone and the hard disk is showing full. Anyone notice that there time in the guide is not correct ? Here it is currently 8:24pm and the guide is showing 12:25am. Nothing that is supposed to be recording is recording.


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## uw69

JSearfoss said:


> I just had a reboot and roll back. My To Do List was also empty, all channel settings are gone and the hard disk is showing full. Anyone notice that there time in the guide is not correct ? Here it is currently 8:24pm and the guide is showing 12:25am. Nothing that is supposed to be recording is recording.


What the heck is going on?


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## NorthAlabama

uw69 said:


> What the heck is going on?


i suspect once you delete all the undeleted shows in "my shows" again, then re-run guided setup, and force a couple of connections, it will be back up.


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## aaronwt

JSearfoss said:


> I just had a reboot and roll back. My To Do List was also empty, all channel settings are gone and the hard disk is showing full. Anyone notice that there time in the guide is not correct ? Here it is currently 8:24pm and the guide is showing 12:25am. Nothing that is supposed to be recording is recording.


Yes my time was off too. I had to initiate another connection. Then the clock had the correct time. Also My To Do List is now showing the scheduled shows. But for 20 or 30 minutes it was empty. I had to manually record the shows I normally watch at 8PM on Friday.



NorthAlabama said:


> i suspect once you delete all the undeleted shows in "my shows" again, then re-run guided setup, and force a couple of connections, it will be back up.


I had no need to run the guided setup again When the To Do list that was empty. When I checked my Season Passes it showed that it was updating. but it took 20 or 30 minutes for the To Do List to populate. All my settings were still intact from before. It still had my zip code, TV provider etc. But I did have to go into the channel list and setup my received channels and my Favorite channels again. It basically had all of the channels checked after the rollback.


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## Davelnlr_

No downgrade here as of 1pm, next scheduled tomorrow at 3pm. Ill be disconnecting the network prior to the call if this isnt resolved.


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## nooneuknow

I've had four distinct reboots, while doing very different things.

1. Doing nothing.
2. Watching Live TV.
3. Watching a recording.
4. Watching Netflix.

I'd say I've had at least seven reboots since the update, and that's just one Roamio. They are all supposedly on "log-monitoring", and I've been diligent in using the 777-clear for AV matters, and 911-clear for reboots and show-stoppers. I just hope somebody is actually doing something with it all. It's a lot of entertainment-interruptus...  

I'd love to be rolled-back, as long as that doesn't cause more problems. I didn't ever have any Netflix reboots on the prior software, which I was doing Netflix marathons on for hours-on-end. That's why I haven't posted anything in the Netflix issue threads in so long.

My official opinion on this update is: :down: :down: :down:

I understand it may be better for those who had missed recordings, due to the overlap glitch/issue, and made use of long paddings. I never do that, so I don't get to see any relief. I get the feeling that if these same folks start getting reboots, they'll find themselves just as unhappy.

I'm seeing quite a few mentions of reboots since the update, across many threads, and new forum members creating new threads, rather than finding their way to the update thread.


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## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> Yes my time was off too. I had to initiate another connection. Then the clock had the correct time. Also My To Do List is now showing the scheduled shows. But for 20 or 30 minutes it was empty. I had to manually record the shows I normally watch at 8PM on Friday.
> 
> I had no need to run the guided setup again When the To Do list that was empty. When I checked my Season Passes it showed that it was updating. but it took 20 or 30 minutes for the To Do List to populate. All my settings were still intact from before. It still had my zip code, TV provider etc. But I did have to go into the channel list and setup my received channels and my Favorite channels again. It basically had all of the channels checked after the rollback.


It sounds like exactly what I've described about how things go after rebooting with the clear and delete program information (includes guide data) option.

I suspect that the clock being "wrong" or "off" as I've heard it described, could wreak havoc with things so badly that it has to rebuild everything, just like the C&DPI reboot option causes (and should be expected when using it).

The SPs taking up to an hour (for ~150 SPs) is about right, but I've seen the updating, while not fully complete, get far enough that what has been processed will record.

What you really need to watch for are manual recordings, and non-ARWL entries that might have vanished. The C&DPI nukes both of those.

In many ways, using C&DPI is a much cleaner way than repeating guided setup, since it wipes things before repopulating, where the guided setup skips the wipe (clear), unless you change something like your channel lineup (or a major zip code change).

Unless anybody has a reason to keep what's in their deleted folder, I'd suggest clearing it out. KMTTG will save hours of time, as opposed to using the remote control to do it one at a time, especially with multiple TiVos. You still could get an improper rollback, based on what I'm still seeing reports of.

*The questions I have are these:*

1. Just how far off is the clock, and is it possibly a time-zone amount off?

2. Are the month, day, and year off as well?

While possibly not related, right before the update, all the cablecards, in all the Roamios in the house either couldn't acquire the date/time, and/or when they finally did, it was something like 1/1/96, and all the tables the cards would download would say that time, when they could get it.

It took many reboots, on every one to get the cablecard to acquire the correct date/time, and download the tables correctly. The TiVo clock was correct, though. So, I brushed it off as "not a TiVo problem".

I'd highly recommend against repeating guided setup, or any form of rebooting with added functions, unless it seems completely necessary. It seems like a recipe for irreversible database corruption, and that can brick a TiVo (even the mighty Roamio). Even regular manual reboots, when the databases are in a vulnerable state, can cause corruption.

Tivos are made to resist this kind of problem. But, if TiVo is sending out the wrong software, incorrectly setting the clock, and sending "only god knows what" incorrect/bad data to your TiVo, it probably wasn't designed to deal with that.

The NZ software that killed US TiVo HDs should be something people familiarize themselves with, as something that TiVo does on their end, or a malfunctioning server does on that end, literally can corrupt your TiVo beyond anything that can be resolved by anything other than replacement. I have no idea if the Roamio is less vulnerable, or more vulnerable, to bad software installs, and/or bad data being fed to it. It uses a "cloud" for some things that used to reside on the hard drive, and I don't know all the pros and cons to that.


----------



## ncfoster

cherry ghost said:


> KMTTG is great for clearing out the Deleted folder


Perfect. Just did that to mitigate any potential damages.

I think that this event may need a name. Trying to think of something catchier and more meaningful than Tivopocalypse.


----------



## tarheelblue32

ncfoster said:


> I think that this event may need a name. Trying to think of something catchier and more meaningful than Tivopocalypse.


St. Roamio's Day Massacre

or

DVRmageddon


----------



## caughey

tarheelblue32 said:


> DVRmageddon


Too piratey. 

How about the* Roamio Void*?

Margret tweeted a fix is in progress, so hopefully, *it's a temporary thing*, and you all can get back to the future.


----------



## aaronwt

My Roamio Pro had another Pending restart. I had emailed my TSN to Margret earlier so I guess it will update to the newest version again. It's still on the installation process right now.



nooneuknow said:


> *The questions I have are these:*
> 
> 1. Just how far off is the clock, and is it possibly a time-zone amount off?
> 
> 2. Are the month, day, and year off as well?
> 
> ......................


When my Roamio Pro had reverted to the previous software, the clock was showing GMT. So it just had not applied the minus four hours for my time zone(EDT) yet until I forced a connection. It was still on the right date. My guide data was also still intact showing the next 12 or 13 days.


----------



## ncfoster

aaronwt said:


> My Roamio Pro had another Pending restart. I had emailed my TSN to Margret earlier so I guess it will update to the newest version again. It's still on the installation process right now.
> 
> The clock was showing GMT. So it just had not applied the minus four or minus five hours for my time zone yet.


I could hardly imagine anything more exciting than having the somewhat flaky new software PLUS the side-effects of the rollback. <facepalm>


----------



## crxssi

Holy S*** 
After they unnecessarily rolled mine back to 20., all my deleted programs (OVER 400) were suddenly all undeleted and returned back to active and MIXED IN WITH THE SUGGESTIONS AND NON-SUGGESTION FOLDERS I WAS KEEPING TO WATCH. My whole system was a mess that took me an hour to "fix", no doubt screwing up some of it along the way since my system was then "full" for the first time EVER and was that way for probably a full day without me knowing. I know for a fact it didn't record at least a few things it was supposed to today (Friday) due to this stupidity.

WTF did they do this? My TiVo was working JUST FINE AFTER THE UPDATE.
One of the worst TiVo experiences ever.

HUGE FAIL TIVO, HUGE.


----------



## aaronwt

ncfoster said:


> I could hardly imagine anything more exciting than having the somewhat flaky new software PLUS the side-effects of the rollback. <facepalm>


I was having zero problems with it before on my Roamio Pro. Hopefully that is still the case.

I see it even remembered my default recording options that I setup before. So everything seems fine right now.


----------



## aaronwt

crxssi said:


> Holy S***
> All my deleted programs are suddenly undeleted and returned back to active and MIXED IN WITH THE SUGGESTIONS I WAS KEEPING TO WATCH. My whole system is a disaster that I don't even know how to fix.
> 
> WTF did they do this for? My TiVo was working JUST FINE AFTER THE UPDATE. Now I am the most pissed ever.
> 
> HUGE FAIL TIVO, HUGE.


Welcomes to the club.

Make sure you email Margret with your TSN so they can get the TiVo updated back to the software it had before. I guess unless you want to keep it on 20.3

Mine has finished updating again and everything seems oK. At least it didn't screw with the Season Passes.


----------



## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> My Roamio Pro had another Pending restart. I had emailed my TSN to Margret earlier so I guess it will update to the newest version again. It's still on the installation process right now.
> 
> When my Roamio Pro had reverted to the previous software, the clock was showing GMT. So it just had not applied the minus four hours for my time zone(EDT) yet until I forced a connection. It was still on the right date. My guide data was also still intact showing the next 12 or 13 days.


That doesn't surprise me. Even if you were to C&DPI, the guide data would have to be populated again, before the SPs would even begin to repopulate. In your case the guide data was still there. I can't say for sure exactly what went on in the software and databases that required the repopulation (or just a scheduling refresh). But, the cause seems obvious.

Thanks for the info on the clock/date. That's far more useful than "off" or "wrong".


----------



## nooneuknow

crxssi said:


> Holy S***
> All my deleted programs are suddenly undeleted and returned back to active and MIXED IN WITH THE SUGGESTIONS I WAS KEEPING TO WATCH. My whole system is a disaster that I don't even know how to fix.
> 
> WTF did they do this for? My TiVo was working JUST FINE AFTER THE UPDATE. Now I am the most pissed ever.
> 
> HUGE FAIL TIVO, HUGE.


This is why I have been, and continue to, cross-post my posts basically saying "Hurry up and clear your RD folders on all your TiVos, ASAP!"

*The status is "working on it" not "fixed". *The author of KMTTG deserves a reward for making it so easy to clear the RD folders on multiple TiVos. When you have 3 or 4TB of drive, and 90% is deleted items, could you imagine doing it manually on one, let alone three or more?

People might have the trojan update (rollback) already downloaded, and just waiting for an opportunity to install. There's also no indication I'm aware of that says if it hasn't yet download, that it won't. Once things get into a queue, it's often hard to stop just one thing, without potentially causing a nationwide service outage, or causing new problems. Sometimes you just have to let existing queues run through, or make things worse...


----------



## crxssi

F***!!!
All my F*****G channels are F****D up. Now I get to spent a F*****G hour trying to fix the damn things. This is worse than the deleted show resurrection. Damnit.


----------



## crxssi

nooneuknow said:


> This is why I have been, and continue to, cross-post my posts basically saying "Hurry up and clear your RD folders on all your TiVos, ASAP!"


Well, one of the few nights I got home late from work and had other things to do... so not only didn't use the TiVo but also was very late reading the forum.


----------



## rainwater

According to TiVo, less than 200 boxes were rolled back. Getting support by calling TiVo will probably be pointless if you are one of the unlucky ones. Hopefully they have already mapped the 20.4 software to all of those boxes by now.


----------



## TiVoMargret

I am so sorry that some of you experienced a rollback of software! There was an operational issue that caused some TiVo boxes (fewer than 200) to receive an incorrect version of software. We have now assigned those boxes back to the correct version, which will download the next time the box connects to the TiVo Service. (If your box is in the Pending Restart state and installs 20.3.8 when it reboots, please connect again and it will download 20.4.1.)

Again, my apologies for this issue.

--Margret


----------



## crxssi

Philmatic said:


> You all need to relax, lol. Other than losing a new screen, what was *lost* here?


How about I am losing LOTS of my time trying to get my system back to the way it was AND I have permanently lost recordings that were supposed to have happened over the last 24 hours and did not.


----------



## crxssi

TiVoMargret said:


> Again, my apologies for this issue.


I am trying to chill.

At least your posting here has calmed me down some. As usual, your presence on the forum is always positive.


----------



## JGC650I

Luckily I saw this thread before my boxes restarted after they downloaded the reversion. I used KMTTG to clear the RD folder before they restarted, so the only symptom I had was the loss of channel listing. Still a pain, but not as bad as what others experienced with restored deletions, loss of programming, etc. Saw Magaret's post and just forced a connection to TiVo service. Boxes are now updated back to 20.4.1 and appear to be functioning normally. So, still a bit annoying, but worst of it for me thankfully was just having to reset the channel listing. If anyone has a pending restart from earlier today, highly recommend they clear RD folder if possible before the restart. Good luck.


----------



## nooneuknow

TiVoMargret said:


> There was an operational issue that caused some TiVo boxes (fewer than 200) to receive an incorrect version of software.


I'm trying to do the math here, and find it hard to believe "fewer than 200" were affected, given how many reports came in on a forum that the vast majority of TiVo owners don't even know exists (or so I've been told from time to time, how that is the case, by others on here).

The "strange math" and "percentage anomalies" aside, Thank You for your presence, support, and your updates here.

It does not go without appreciation.


----------



## markp99

No issues here @ 20.3. Glad this mess missed me.


----------



## DeltaOne

nooneuknow said:


> I'm trying to do the math here, and find it hard to believe "fewer than 200" were affected, given how many reports came in on a forum that the vast majority of TiVo owners don't even know exists (or so I've been told from time to time, how that is the case, by others on here).


Maybe those rolled back were folks that signed up for the early release via the priority list?


----------



## crxssi

DeltaOne said:


> Maybe those rolled back were folks that signed up for the early release via the priority list?


Yep- that was my assumption.


----------



## generaltso

crxssi said:


> Yep- that was my assumption.


I was on the priority list and none of mine rolled back.


----------



## kbmb

DeltaOne said:


> Maybe those rolled back were folks that signed up for the early release via the priority list?





crxssi said:


> Yep- that was my assumption.


I'd assume that as well just because I don't think the new software was being rolled out in general release yet.

Maybe those 200 were so of the first ones to sign up for priority?

-Kevin


----------



## timstack8969

I'm Back to 20.4 software. Thanks Margret


----------



## rarceneaux

http://www.engadget.com/2014/04/11/tivo-spring-update/?ncid=rss_truncated


----------



## anthonymoody

generaltso said:


> I was on the priority list and none of mine rolled back.


Same here.

I subsequently disconnected my Ethernet cable to be safe, but it'd connected Friday morning and not rolled back, and I was on the priority list. So it's not that.

I'd appreciate a little more detail from TiVo/Margret regarding this "200 boxes" notion, how sure they are, etc. Said another way, I don't want to plug my Ethernet cable back in only to then be rolled back because "oops."


----------



## HenryFarpolo

Back to normal....Only slightly irritated that this happened!!


----------



## jwbelcher

anthonymoody said:


> I'd appreciate a little more detail from TiVo/Margret regarding this "200 boxes" notion, how sure they are, etc. Said another way, I don't want to plug my Ethernet cable back in only to then be rolled back because "oops."





TiVoMargret said:


> .... There was an operational issue that caused some TiVo boxes (fewer than 200) to receive an incorrect version of software. We have now assigned those boxes back to the correct version, which will download the next time the box connects to the TiVo Service.


Releases are assigned at the box level. I have no doubt they can query who all was effected. Reading between the lines though, an operational issue sounds like a nice way of saying the problem existed between the keyboard and chair assigning the update. For their sake, hopefully its not the same person that goofed up some TiVoHDs recently


----------



## crxssi

timstack8969 said:


> I'm Back to 20.4 software. Thanks Margret


Mine is also back; now 20.4.1-USA-6-840

No repeat of program loss/moving/resurrection and my channel settings were not changed (and are still not back to the way I want because after an hour of going through it last night, I lost patience; will finish today).


----------



## bunjicat

Im back to 20.4.



TiVoMargret said:


> I am so sorry that some of you experienced a rollback of software! There was an operational issue


Anyone else not satisfied with this explanation?


----------



## DaveDFW

My Roamio is also back to 20.4.1. Happily, I didn't experience the same loss of settings that happened with the rollback.


----------



## uw69

bunjicat said:


> Im back to 20.4.
> 
> Anyone else not satisfied with this explanation?


Seems like a reasonable explanation.


----------



## HenryFarpolo

bunjicat said:


> Im back to 20.4.
> 
> Anyone else not satisfied with this explanation?


I don't need more details...What am I going to do with them?


----------



## LoadStar

Well, I seem to have been hit by a rollback... and it also farked with my channel list, resetting all the channels I had marked as unavailable as available again, which is probably more annoying (getting the channel list correct is a majorly time consuming task).


----------



## rainwater

LoadStar said:


> (getting the channel list correct is a majorly time consuming task).


This is why I have a document that keeps a list of every channel I receive. It makes it much easier when setting up a new TiVo.


----------



## LoadStar

rainwater said:


> This is why I have a document that keeps a list of every channel I receive. It makes it much easier when setting up a new TiVo.


Yeah, I thought I had that, but it seems to have hit the bit bucket when I upgraded my computer. :/


----------



## NorthAlabama

bunjicat said:


> Anyone else not satisfied with this explanation?


what else were you expecting? what other info will help restore your equipment? the rollback was identified and a correction issued within 2 days. while i'm glad it didn't happen to my equipment, and sorry others had the headache, it was addressed quickly.

of course, if this had happened a few centuries earlier, off with their heads!


----------



## ADG

bunjicat said:


> Im back to 20.4.
> 
> Anyone else not satisfied with this explanation?


Give it a break. It is what it is. Move on.


----------



## bunjicat

Clearly you are satisfied with mediocrity. I am not. We all paid a lot of money for the Tivo service. I don't believe they are holding up their end of the agreement. I had hoped they turned the corner with the Roamio but when blunders like this happen its a disappointment. Shame on me for supporting them. I'll vote with my wallet next time.


----------



## L David Matheny

bunjicat said:


> Clearly you are satisfied with mediocrity. I am not. We all paid a lot of money for the Tivo service. I don't believe they are holding up their end of the agreement. I had hoped they turned the corner with the Roamio but when blunders like this happen its a disappointment. Shame on me for supporting them. I'll vote with my wallet next time.


Nobody is satisfied with the idea that this is the best TiVo can do. But most are satisfied that there's not much point in getting a more detailed explanation. What do you want? The name of the employee who goofed? The reason for the blunder (lack of sleep or whatever)? What good would any of that do us? And if you find something better than TiVo for similar money, please let us know.


----------



## dianebrat

L David Matheny said:


> Nobody is satisfied with the idea that this is the best TiVo can do. But most are satisfied that there's not much point in getting a more detailed explanation. What do you want? The name of the employee who goofed? The reason for the blunder (lack of sleep or whatever)? What good would any of that do us? And if you find something better than TiVo for similar money, please let us know.


I agree, the fact that Tivo is willing to come out and say "my bad" is far more than most corporations would do, I'm ok knowing they know the issue, and they identified the cause, I just hope they have something in place to prevent it from happening again.

I have a suspicion a lot of what we're seeing is them operating on a shoestring from the development and ops side of their infrastructure as they just try to survive.


----------



## NorthAlabama

dianebrat said:


> I agree, the fact that Tivo is willing to come out and say "my bad" is far more than most corporations would do...


this, 100%. :up:


----------



## nooneuknow

DeltaOne said:


> Maybe those rolled back were folks that signed up for the early release via the priority list?


I thought about that, but then thought of the post stating that TiVo rolls updates to the general public, alongside the priority list customers. It seems to be a good point (and good practice/policy).

You don't have to be on the priority list to get the update with the first stage, as I've seen plenty of evidence supporting.

At the same time, priority listed TiVo owners have experienced their TSNs falling into a "black hole", and winding up being the last to get an update. So, the logic would indicate being on that list could cause other things.


----------



## nooneuknow

Blanket post:

1. TiVo never used to have a TiVo Service status page, now they do.
2. TiVo never used to admit to *anything*, now they do.
3. TiVo didn't have TiVoMargret before. Halleluyah! Now they do!
4. What is the deal with so many people assuming a live person had anything to do with this? It could have been a server node malfunction. That node could have just happened to service ~200 TiVo TSNs.

We are now getting release notes/changelogs, confirmation that issues exist, confirmation when there are TiVo-side TiVo Service issues, status updates, confirmations they have fixed things, and so much more, we should feel *SPOILED*, compared to the way things used to be.

Still, after all I just said, I'd like to hear explanations better than things like "there was an issue, it's fixed now". The explanations given are no more informative than that, most of the time.

TiVo has to answer to their MSO partners. I bet the MSOs demand to know exactly what happened, why, how it was fixed, and get TiVos word they will work to prevent it from happening again.

We'll likely never get that as retail customers. But, who can fault those who want more than an unvaguely-vague blurb that could mean almost anything?


----------



## tomhorsley

nooneuknow said:


> 4. What is the deal with so many people assuming a live person had anything to do with this?


Because it is *always* a live person responsible .

I remember when I worked in the comp center at a university. The HR people would give us input to feed to the payroll system to say when various voluntary deductions and wot-not should start or stop. We'd feed the numbers into the program and run payroll.

Once they completely hosed the numbers, told us to feed in hopelessly wrong information and screwed up most of the paychecks.

The next pay period they added a note apologizing for the "computer error" that caused the problem, and patting themselves on the back for all the hard work they put in to correct it by hand.

Grrrr... Aargh...


----------



## crxssi

rainwater said:


> This is why I have a document that keeps a list of every channel I receive. It makes it much easier when setting up a new TiVo.


And on Cox the list changes every few months.
And it there are still something like 1500 channels to freak with (of which 90%+ are garbage).
And they still don't give reasonable descriptions of what all the stupid channels really are.


----------



## HenryFarpolo

Didn't realize it until this PM, but the rollback screwed up my FIOS cablecard. Back to the HBO/Cinemax not working issue that many of us have seen before.

Unfortunately, I know what the fix is but to find a competent video tech on the weekend is difficult. Guess I will have to wait until Monday.


----------



## aaronwt

HenryFarpolo said:


> Didn't realize it until this PM, but the rollback screwed up my FIOS cablecard. Back to the HBO/Cinemax not working issue that many of us have seen before.
> 
> Unfortunately, I know what the fix is but to find a competent video tech on the weekend is difficult. Guess I will have to wait until Monday.


Fortunately the roll back did not affect my FiOS cable card. My Cinemax is still working. Although just a few days ago I dropped HBO because my 50% discount ran out. But if Cinemax is fine I would expect that HBO would be too.


----------



## rainwater

crxssi said:


> And on Cox the list changes every few months.
> And it there are still something like 1500 channels to freak with (of which 90%+ are garbage).
> And they still don't give reasonable descriptions of what all the stupid channels really are.


We had about 300 channel changes a few months ago. I still keep a very up to date list. And once a year or so, I will go through and verify each channel as well. It is better than running guided setup and having a full list of channels that includes SD duplicates and tiers I don't receive.


----------



## cr33p

I was one of the lucky few as well, got the update, then the rollback, no channels, rebooted my roamio today, took the new update back to 20.4.1, still no channels. Its as if my cable card lost its pairing. Called tech support and I am told they are still working on a fix, and they have no resolution at this time. He did suggest a new cable card, however everything was fine prior to this fiasco. I now have an 800 dollar door stop. WOOOT!!!!!


----------



## jwbelcher

nooneuknow said:


> Blanket post:
> 
> 1. TiVo never used to have a TiVo Service status page, now they do.
> 2. TiVo never used to admit to *anything*, now they do.
> 3. TiVo didn't have TiVoMargret before. Halleluyah! Now they do!


I could not agree more with you. TiVoMargret has provided us with more accountability than ANY other CE manufacture period. I hope she's holding her staff just as accountable. Bugs in new functionality is understandable, but breaking old stuff is not. If increased testing cycles mean longer release cycles, so be it.



nooneuknow said:


> 4. What is the deal with so many people assuming a live person had anything to do with this? It could have been a server node malfunction. That node could have just happened to service ~200 TiVo TSNs.


Because it was an operational issue. If it were a malfunction, I believe the language would be different. TiVoMargret has always called bugs bugs. This fix was reassigning the correct release to the affected boxes. I could see it being a result of suspending the priority roll-out; perhaps they inadvertently moved people out of the queue that had already received it. Either way, it was resolved quickly once it got to TiVoMargret. I'm very glad she doesn't sit on these issues and she follows through (refer to #1-3 above). This is good stuff folks.



nooneuknow said:


> We are now getting release notes/changelogs, confirmation that issues exist, confirmation when there are TiVo-side TiVo Service issues, status updates, confirmations they have fixed things, and so much more, we should feel *SPOILED*, compared to the way things used to be.
> 
> Still, after all I just said, I'd like to hear explanations better than things like "there was an issue, it's fixed now". The explanations given are no more informative than that, most of the time.
> 
> TiVo has to answer to their MSO partners. I bet the MSOs demand to know exactly what happened, why, how it was fixed, and get TiVos word they will work to prevent it from happening again.
> 
> We'll likely never get that as retail customers. But, who can fault those who want more than an unvaguely-vague blurb that could mean almost anything?


Retail customers wont, but neither do the MSO's customers. I'd agree that MSOs themselves get better visibility when an issue effects their end-users, but they have a service level agreement where we do not. Even if it feels like I should given the coin I dropped in the last 6 months.


----------



## jwbelcher

cr33p said:


> I was one of the lucky few as well, got the update, then the rollback, no channels, rebooted my roamio today, took the new update back to 20.4.1, still no channels. Its as if my cable card lost its pairing. Called tech support and I am told they are still working on a fix, and they have no resolution at this time. He did suggest a new cable card, however everything was fine prior to this fiasco. I now have an 800 dollar door stop. WOOOT!!!!!


Try having your cableco to unpair then pair again. Wait until their A-team shows up in the morning (or Monday). I've never had a knowledgeable rep at night for cablecard support.


----------



## rainwater

nooneuknow said:


> 2. TiVo never used to admit to *anything*, now they do.


I've been on this forum for almost 10 years and your statement couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, TiVo use to frequent these forums even more than now. Because of the new forum owners and the way some TiVo employees were treated by some users, that may have slowed down a bit until Margaret came along. However, TiVo has always been very helpful to users in this community going well above the call of duty.


----------



## moyekj

rainwater said:


> We had about 300 channel changes a few months ago. I still keep a very up to date list. And once a year or so, I will go through and verify each channel as well. It is better than running guided setup and having a full list of channels that includes SD duplicates and tiers I don't receive.


 FYI, kmttg Remote->Guide tab "Export Channels" button automatically generates a CSV spreadsheet file listing all included and excluded channels from your channel list. I re-generate any time there is a lineup change. I used to try and keep a spreadsheet going by hand, but now it's much easier.


----------



## jjd_87

I was rolled back last night which really wasn't a big deal except for the fact that all my channels I received have been messed up adding channels I don't have and deleting ones I do. Also my TiVo is now recording shows it recorded a week or 2 ago as new. Weird. This is on a premiere 4.


----------



## nooneuknow

rainwater said:


> I've been on this forum for almost 10 years and your statement couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, TiVo use to frequent these forums even more than now. Because of the new forum owners and the way some TiVo employees were treated by some users, that may have slowed down a bit until Margaret came along. However, TiVo has always been very helpful to users in this community going well above the call of duty.


Your definitions of "truth", "slowed down a bit", "always", and "going above and beyond" used in the context you used them must be different from mine.

I was lurking (not a member, but present) back around your join date, and opted to use what google cached, when I needed to search for something, as opposed to when I was just reading. I only officially joined when it got more difficult to find what I needed, without joining. I view many forums that I never join.

I recall the days of many in the employ of TiVo being active on here. Yes, they got treated like dirt. TiVoJerry (whom you should recall), made his feelings clear before he dissipated into the ether. I 100% agreed with him.

TiVo's presence here didn't "slow down". It ceased. We were on our own here for a far greater amount of time than you make it out to be (unless you count the impostors, or non-TiVo people who signed up with "TiVo" somewhere in their usernames, often in a misleading manner).

If some of my wording was extreme one way, your response is extreme in the other direction. However, I feel my POV is still more accurate, overall. Even when we had those before TiVoMargret, the word I'd use to compare them to her would be "lackluster", and TiVoMargret is just one person. I see at least one other person agrees with me.

I'm not a TiVo fanboy, nor am I a TiVo hater. But, if you want to be thought of as a fanboy, keep up the knee-jerk extreme reactions to posts that say TiVo isn't perfect. My post provided a rather balanced overall POV, which basically says "TiVo used to be bad at some things, or didn't do some things, but now they do", which I am happy is the case. Some might even read it and think I've become converted to a fanboy. I'd be inclined to think you didn't read past what you didn't like, and went straight to defending TiVo's honor. It wasn't even necessary. I stand-by that post without any reconsideration, and that's not going to change.

I've posted a few things, here and there, that are a bit extreme. I don't consider that post to be one of them.


----------



## nooneuknow

jwbelcher said:


> I could not agree more with you. TiVoMargret has provided us with more accountability than ANY other CE manufacture period. I hope she's holding her staff just as accountable. Bugs in new functionality is understandable, but breaking old stuff is not. If increased testing cycles mean longer release cycles, so be it.


Thanks. I figure TiVo needs to either hire more help in this area, or if they aren't up to it internally, outsource testing. I think the days of customers volunteering for betas and field trials has become dated, or something about how it is being managed/supervised/implemented just isn't working out...



jwbelcher said:


> Because it was an operational issue. If it were a malfunction, I believe the language would be different. TiVoMargret has always called bugs bugs. This fix was reassigning the correct release to the affected boxes. I could see it being a result of suspending the priority roll-out; perhaps they inadvertently moved people out of the queue that had already received it. Either way, it was resolved quickly once it got to TiVoMargret. I'm very glad she doesn't sit on these issues and she follows through (refer to #1-3 above). This is good stuff folks.


Again, thanks. I understand what you are saying. I feel it's really anybody's guess, or just speculation, to read so far into a few words, and how they have been repeated. I was just presenting one of maybe a dozen different things I had thought it could have been. I'm trying to lean-down my posts these days. I've been going a few rounds in other threads with some who think one thing, while I think something else, when it comes to trying to understand how TiVo's end of the TiVo Service and update rollout system works.



jwbelcher said:


> Retail customers wont, but neither do the MSO's customers. I'd agree that MSOs themselves get better visibility when an issue effects their end-users, but they have a service level agreement where we do not. Even if it feels like I should given the coin I dropped in the last 6 months.


If only we could find somebody inside one of those TiVo-partnered MSOs to "leak" us some more substantial information... As far as the cost, maybe remind yourself what the Series 3 OLED was selling for, or even the TiVo HD XL w/THX certification, then compare what Roamios are going for, and just how much more they can do. I doubt you'll even be able to find a post of mine mentioning how much I spent, unless it's in the Roamio Deals thread. I have to say that I feel I'm getting the best (most) bang for my buck this time. If only TiVo could cure what is ailing them when it comes to testing their updates before they roll. For next Christmas, I just want C133 errors to disrupt nothing more than the discovery bar. I can't find a reason why TiVo can't use the empty placeholder partitions on the Roamio drives to keep a local cache of things in the real-time TiVo Service cloud. I can't prove it's possible, either... There's more I'd like, and I've already detailed what issues are new for me, as well as some that got worse for me with the Spring Update, in the thread for that subject. As usual, it seems some members here, are only here to post how everything about everything works perfectly and flawlessly for them, and keep pointing that out whenever somebody posts an issue...


----------



## rainwater

nooneuknow said:


> Your definitions of "truth", "slowed down a bit", "always", and "going above and beyond" used in the context you used them must be different from mine.
> 
> I was lurking (not a member, but present) back around your join date, and opted to use what google cached, when I needed to search for something, as opposed to when I was just reading. I only officially joined when it got more difficult to find what I needed, without joining. I view many forums that I never join.
> 
> I recall the days of many in the employ of TiVo being active on here. Yes, they got treated like dirt. TiVoJerry (whom you should recall), made his feelings clear before he dissipated into the ether. I 100% agreed with him.
> 
> TiVo's presence here didn't "slow down". It ceased. We were on our own here for a far greater amount of time than you make it out to be (unless you count the impostors, or non-TiVo people who signed up with "TiVo" somewhere in their usernames, often in a misleading manner).
> 
> If some of my wording was extreme one way, your response is extreme in the other direction. However, I feel my POV is still more accurate, overall. Even when we had those before TiVoMargret, the word I'd use to compare them to her would be "lackluster", and TiVoMargret is just one person. I see at least one other person agrees with me.
> 
> I'm not a TiVo fanboy, nor am I a TiVo hater. But, if you want to be thought of as a fanboy, keep up the knee-jerk extreme reactions to posts that say TiVo isn't perfect. My post provided a rather balanced overall POV, which basically says "TiVo used to be bad at some things, or didn't do some things, but now they do", which I am happy is the case. Some might even read it and think I've become converted to a fanboy. I'd be inclined to think you didn't read past what you didn't like, and went straight to defending TiVo's honor. It wasn't even necessary. I stand-by that post without any reconsideration, and that's not going to change.
> 
> I've posted a few things, here and there, that are a bit extreme. I don't consider that post to be one of them.


I have no clue what you are saying but you did clearly state, "TiVo never used to admit to anything, now they do."

I'm sorry but, TiVoStephen, TiVoPony, TiVoJerry, TiVoBill, TiVoOpsMgr, etc would have to disagree with you. For years they have provided direct support here. And they most certainly admitted to issues and helped people solve them. Maybe you should reword what you said but clearly that is not accurate at all.


----------



## jwbelcher

nooneuknow said:


> I doubt you'll even be able to find a post of mine mentioning how much I spent, unless it's in the Roamio Deals thread. I have to say that I feel I'm getting the best (most) bang for my buck this time.


LOL. I remember all to well the incident with the Best Buy general manager. It was one of the more entertaining posts in that thread. I went out an bought a Roamio basic (still unactivated) right afterwards.


----------



## nooneuknow

rainwater said:


> I have no clue what you are saying but you did clearly state, "TiVo never used to admit to anything, now they do."
> 
> I'm sorry but, TiVoStephen, TiVoPony, TiVoJerry, TiVoBill, TiVoOpsMgr, etc would have to disagree with you. For years they have provided direct support here. And they most certainly admitted to issues and helped people solve them. Maybe you should reword what you said but clearly that is not accurate at all.


It's a slightly broad wording. I think it's called "paraphrasing".

You expect to sound credible by saying 5 TiVo employees, who haven't been on here in years, and may not even work for TiVo anymore "would have to disagree with me"?  

I'll stick with what I said, which came from my own self. I said my piece. You said yours. We disagree, period.


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## morac

nooneuknow said:


> It's a slightly broad wording. I think it's called "paraphrasing". You expect to sound credible by saying 5 TiVo employees, who haven't been on here in years, and may not even work for TiVo anymore "would have to disagree with me"?   I'll stick with what I said, which came from my own self. I said my piece. You said yours. We disagree, period.


Except in this case the facts back rainwater, so he's correct.

Simply searching for posts from the user names he mentioned shows that their last posts were months (Feb and Jan respectively), not years ago. Both of them are still TiVo employees and both have posted up to and after Margret started posting.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/search.php?searchid=8171883
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/search.php?searchid=8171890

You can call it exaggeration, but there's a big difference between saying there has been no TiVo employee presence here for years before Margret started posting (which is wrong) and the opposite (which is fact). They may not have been as verbal as they were in the past, but they were still here recently.

Though I believe Margret is the highest level position employee who has ever posted here regularly, with her being a VP and she has an Emmy to boot.


----------



## nooneuknow

morac said:


> Except in this case the facts back rainwater, so he's correct.
> 
> Simply searching for posts from the user names he mentioned shows that their last posts were months (Feb and Jan respectively), not years ago. Both of them are still TiVo employees and both have posted up to and after Margret started posting.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/search.php?searchid=8171883
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/search.php?searchid=8171890
> 
> You can call it exaggeration, but there's a big difference between saying there has been no TiVo employee presence here for years before Margret started posting (which is wrong) and the opposite (which is fact). They may not have been as verbal as they were in the past, but they were still here recently.
> 
> Though I believe Margret is the highest level position employee who has ever posted here regularly, with her being a VP and she has an Emmy to boot.


Besides the first link not even working, the second link goes to an off-topic (non-TiVo-related) thread, in which TiVoJerry seems to be addicted to playing the game, of which the thread is part of (the thread is the game). I knew he would show up there on-and-off when I'd check to see if he'd been active. I'm only surprised he's still playing that game.

He's also no longer involved with anything to do with anything TiVo-related in the US, and it has been that way for some time now. He does not talk "TiVo", answer TiVo questions, or provide support.

If that was your best zinger, consider me underwhelmed.

If you come up with relevant, on-topic, TiVo-related posts showing how wrong I am, have at it, so long as all the following applies:

1. You can confirm TiVo(whoever) isn't just a name that was kept, rather than close and create a new account.
2. You can prove they still work for TiVo, for US retail customers.
3. It's not an off-topic thread.
4. Proof of actual involvement in an official TiVo capacity: Announcements, answers, support, etc.
5. More than just a one-off post - active participation.

Since 2 years is still plural, I think I'm almost safe from being proven wrong to say it's been years between TiVoMargret, and the TiVo(others) who provided support and announcements before her, if that's so very important to you.


----------



## chrispitude

<deleted>


----------



## CrispyCritter

nooneuknow said:


> 2. TiVo never used to admit to *anything*, now they do.


Yet another time when you are just flat-out wrong in your claims. This isn't "para-phrasing" or "exaggeration"; this is wrong. You seem to think that you can make any sort of comment you want, and it's up to other folks to correct your comments for you (and correct them in PM which isn't so private in that you feel you can post other people's PM, if you don't like it!!!)

Just doing a search for TiVoStephen yields lots of posts in the past 5 years (~100 posts total) in which he has commented on issues and even admitted TiVo fault (and even stated that he was posting in an official capacity). TiVoMargret is doing an excellent job now in keeping in touch with us, but TiVo has maintained a presence here throughout the years.


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## sbourgeo

Many have clamored for release notes for YEARS, and now we get them. We also get TiVoMargret's awesomeness with helpful participation here and on twitter, a direct avenue to report issues to instead of having to deal with a CSR wasting lots of time having you reboot your TiVo, links to priority updates, etc.

We haven't had anything close to that here since the days of Richard Bullwinkle a decade ago, so let's try not to go and blow a good thing.


----------



## uw69

sbourgeo said:


> Many have clamored for release notes for YEARS, and now we get them. We also get TiVoMargret's awesomeness with helpful participation here and on twitter, a direct avenue to report issues to instead of having to deal with a CSR wasting lots of time having you reboot your TiVo, links to priority updates, etc.
> 
> We haven't had anything close to that here since the days of Richard Bullwinkle a decade ago, so let's try not to go and blow a good thing.


+1


----------



## Bierboy

CrispyCritter said:


> Yet another time when you are just flat-out wrong in your claims. This isn't "para-phrasing" or "exaggeration"; this is wrong. You seem to think that you can make any sort of comment you want, and it's up to other folks to correct your comments for you (and correct them in PM which isn't so private in that you feel you can post other people's PM, if you don't like it!!!)...


Yet another reason he proudly tops my IL....


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## anthonymoody

jwbelcher said:


> Because it was an operational issue. If it were a malfunction, I believe the language would be different. TiVoMargret has always called bugs bugs. This fix was reassigning the correct release to the affected boxes. I could see it being a result of suspending the priority roll-out; perhaps they inadvertently moved people out of the queue that had already received it. Either way, it was resolved quickly once it got to TiVoMargret. I'm very glad she doesn't sit on these issues and she follows through (refer to #1-3 above). This is good stuff folks.


The point is that whether human error or code/bug/node/whatever tech related, the explanation was insufficiently clear to those whose boxes hadn't (yet) rolled back to know with any real degree of certainty whether they were in the clear.

No mention of "we have fixed this operational issue to ensure that there will be no further roll backs" or "we did a batch correction to all boxes to ensure that there will be no further roll backs."

I unplugged my Ethernet cable for a couple days and I'm glad I did. Why take the risk? As posted above, some users, once rolled forward, are now fairly farked.


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## actionj

I agree. It sounded like " a small group of people" got rolled back and I hadn't yet. It sounded like anyone that was going to be rolled back was already rolled back. So I thought I was in the clear when I should have also unplugged my Ethernet cable. But alas, I was rolled back and it screwed up all sorts of things and put all of my deleted shows as undeleted.


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## morac

nooneuknow said:


> Besides the first link not even working, the second link goes to an off-topic (non-TiVo-related) thread, in which TiVoJerry seems to be addicted to playing the game, of which the thread is part of (the thread is the game).


Apparently search links expire. Here's a direct link to a post.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9985409#post9985409


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## nooneuknow

OK, a couple of my references are exaggerations of the magnitude of a couple things.

I don't see anybody complaining I was exaggerating the positive flip-side points I made with every "before" reference. It reeks of bias, IMO.

I was pointing out positive improvements with TiVo, and within TiVo. So sue me, or get your torches and pitchforks ready. Don't forget the noose.

Please, just "Ignore List" me, if even my positive posts saying TiVo has turned things around, and/or improved, bother you so badly. I suggest the same if anything else I say, or do, bothers you so badly.

It's easy, click on my name, select to view my profile, select to add me to your ignore list.

One-click shortcut to add me to your ignore list & not see what I post: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=258633


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## lessd

nooneuknow said:


> OK, a couple of my references are exaggerations of the magnitude of a couple things.
> 
> I don't see anybody complaining I was exaggerating the positive flip-side points I made with every "before" reference. It reeks of bias, IMO.
> 
> I was pointing out positive improvements with TiVo, and within TiVo. So sue me, or get your torches and pitchforks ready. Don't forget the noose.
> 
> Please, just "Ignore List" me, if even my positive posts saying TiVo has turned things around, and/or improved, bother you so badly. I suggest the same if anything else I say, or do, bothers you so badly.
> 
> It's easy, click on my name, select to view my profile, select to add me to your ignore list.
> 
> One-click shortcut to add me to your ignore list & not see what I post: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=258633


People on this Forum don't hurt other feelings by placing them on the ignore list


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## nooneuknow

lessd said:


> People on this Forum don't hurt other feelings by placing them on the ignore list


Or they use the excuse that their "reader" somehow nullifies the ignore list function.

Ever notice how often one member keeps pointing out that I'm "on their IL"? That's seem a bit convoluted, amongst other things. 

I'll say I'd start using that function if it worked both ways, like say facebook, where one party invokes, and neither can see a trace of the other, even in quotes. If it worked that way here, I'd use it, and be a much happier person.


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## aaronwt

I got rolled back to 20.3.8 again tonight. Did this happen to anyone else for a second time? I sent a tweet to Margret. I also sent another email with my TSN again.


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## andyf

Checked my two units, so far so good. Of course my Roamio isn't scheduled to connect until early tomorrow morning. My XL4 called in at 5:10pm this afternoon and it's OK too.

One good thing about getting rolled back previously was I got to update my channels spreadsheet.


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## DaveDFW

aaronwt said:


> I got rolled back to 20.3.8 again tonight. Did this happen to anyone else for a second time? I sent a tweet to Margret. I also sent another email with my TSN again.


Rolled back a second time? That's crazy.

Has Tivo allowed an employee previously banished to the Premiere line to begin spreading mayhem to the Roamio?


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## tlrowley

I just got rolled back to 20.3.8. This wasn't the second time, but I was very surprised. I thought they had stopped it.


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## aaronwt

tlrowley said:


> I just got rolled back to 20.3.8. This wasn't the second time, but I was very surprised. I thought they had stopped it.


Email Margret with your TSN info. I emailed her mine again last night, and she responded that she would look into it since it was my second rollback. But I won't be able to check my Roamio Pro until i get home from work this evening to see it they updated it again to the new software.


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## kbmb

Guess the "operational issue" is still.....well.....an issue.

Makes you wonder what's going on at Tivo.

-Kevin


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## aaronwt

I'm just glad i noticed the pending restart yesterday and was able to apply it. Because if it would have happened at 2Am, things would have been screwed up for me today since I had to go through the guided setup again to get my channels tuning in again. Although right now alot of things are also repeats which also helps since i have fewer recordings scheduled. So while it is kind of a pain to deal with, it could have certainly been worse.


----------



## tlrowley

aaronwt said:


> Email Margret with your TSN info. I emailed her mine again last night, and she responded that she would look into it since it was my second rollback. But I won't be able to check my Roamio Pro until i get home from work this evening to see it they updated it again to the new software.


Thanks, I did do that. She got back to me really quickly :up::up: and said I was one of 13 rather unlucky boxes that rolled back  Triskaidekaphobia anyone?


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## tlrowley

Did anyone watch the re-update (from 20.3.8 to 20.4.1 for the second or third time) notice how long it took? Mine has been on "preparing the update" for 2 1/2 hours, and I'm starting to get worried.


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## andyf

2 1/2 hours is way too long. Pretty sure you can unplug and re-plug (what else can you do?) and it'll come up fine. Occasionally this happens on an update.


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## tlrowley

Thanks, Andy - I gave up at close to 3 hours and pulled the plug. It stayed on "almost there" for 20 minutes and I pulled the plug again. I'm currently running SMART tests on the drive. 

Considering I had trouble with a Mac OSX update yesterday, this isn't turning out to be a stellar week for tech for me  *sigh*


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## tlrowley

Well, it officially appears to be dead - stuck on "almost there" for 45 minutes. 

Called tech support and they were less than helpful - didn't want to do anything beyond the script, which I get that they need. When I asked about escalating to 2nd tier support, she said "there's nothing more I can do for you. thank you for calling tivo" and hung up.


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## andyf

I suggest you Email Margret since it appears the downrev/uprev caused your problems. I wouldn't be surprised if she couldn't help you out. Tell her support could do nothing for you.


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## kbmb

andyf said:


> I suggest you Email Margret since it appears the downrev/uprev caused your problems. I wouldn't be surprised if she couldn't help you out. Tell her support could do nothing for you.


If anything, email her and let her know that the tivo support staff continue to be absolutely useless. People would be better off coming here for help!

-Kevin


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## tlrowley

Thanks - I did the online chat and didn't get a solution, but at least the communication was better this time. They want me to run the overnight disk test and then pay $50 to replace the box.

I truly never understood people's complaints with tivo support until that call - I was horrified! I ran tech support for a small software company (back when dinosaurs roamed the earth), so I know what "problem" callers sound like, and I'm especially sensitive to being that "problem". I never lost my temper, and I certainly never cursed. I will admit to being frustrated, but I don't think I was in any way, shape or form the sort of customer that needs to be hung up on!


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## jrtroo

If your disc is bad, you can just replace it on your own.


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## tlrowley

Tivo got back to me (gotta love twitter!) and they're replacing my box! 

In doing the KS54 testing - the first few (quick) SMART tests pass, but trying to run the overnight test fails immediately (can't access /dev/hda (hdb) Whatever the rollback did, it was a doozy.


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## aaronwt

Luckily my second update back to 20.4.1 didn't have any issues. I rebooted the TiVo when i got home since it had a pending restart.


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## FACTAgent

I was also rolled back for the second time. Once again, shows were undeleted and channel customizations lost.

Luckily, the update back to 20.4.1 proceeded without incident. I will now make it a daily practice to permanently delete shows I no longer need until this stops.

I think Tivo owes us a better explanation of why this is happening and what they will do to prevent recurrence. Even if it means someone has to lost their job over it...As a process and Quality person, I would prefer a process-based fix, but they need to do whatever it takes to address this.

My wife wants to get rid of Tivo. I am considering filing an Executive complaint if there's a process to do that.

My wife wants to get rid of Tivo.


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## CloudAtlas

FACTAgent said:


> I think Tivo owes us a better explanation of why this is happening and what they will do to prevent recurrence. Even if it means someone has to lost their job over it...As a process and Quality person, I would prefer a process-based fix, but they need to do whatever it takes to address this.


Let's put this in proper perspective. This problem affects 13 customers out of the current 4 million. More importantly it doesn't affect me. I understand it's a major annoyance to you but I think we should hold off on anyone losing their livelihood until at least 20 customers are affected.

As a process and quality person you know more than anyone that problems do reoccur even with the best processes in place.


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## moyekj

The first unintentional software rollback affecting 100 people was perhaps understandable/forgivable. For it to happen again despite VP involvement is just complete incompetence no matter how small the number affected. My guess is nobody will be fired over it in this day and age of lack of accountability...


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## nooneuknow

CloudAtlas said:


> Let's put this in proper perspective. This problem affects 13 customers out of the current 4 million. More importantly it doesn't affect me. I understand it's a major annoyance to you but I think we should hold off on anyone losing their livelihood until at least 20 customers are affected.


Psst, your true-colors are showing...

I don't see that as putting it in "the proper perspective", more like *"your perspective"*, especially with the lovely *"More importantly it doesn't affect me (you)"* comment. Then, you assign your arbitrary number of "20 customers" as a threshold... I sincerely now have an improper wish that you had been hit by it, then hit again. I doubt you'd be so complacent, or supportive of TiVo. I keep stating I haven't been hit, but have been supportive of those who have been, or were worried they would be. It would have been easy to claim I had been hit, or hit twice, and align with them. It's against my moral/ethical code-of-conduct to do that, though.

I was just wondering, right before arronwt reported a second rollback, if I had a reason to make sure my Recently Deleted folders on three TiVos should stay empty. I was actually giving TiVo the benefit of the doubt, and not making sure of it, once TiVoMarget made her announcement, and I hadn't seen further reports. Now, I have to feel like if I don't keep clearing them out, and I get hit by this problem, I have to partially blame myself for not doing it, should I be hit, and have to clean up the resulting mess. It's the mentality of the "fanboys", who feel TiVo can do no wrong, and would b-slap me for complaining, that force this convoluted way of thinking, even though it's against the way I'd think regarding any other product I own.

I came very close to responding to those posting they wanted to find a way to block updates, in a not-so-nice way. Now, I'm glad I didn't.

Unfortunately, once TiVo has completed a rollout, they don't make the TiVo service something that is meant to work with TiVos on outdated software (other than designing it to send the current software to those units).

I will not engage in calling for "heads to roll" within TiVo (the true TiVo employees), even if the number of affected reaches the "20" threshold you set, or even another "less than 200", as TiVo claims for the first time it happened.

If anything, I keep feeling like things have gone downhill since TiVo downsized their head-count. I can't help but wonder if they cut too-many, or it's affected the work-ethic of those who remain. That's a valid concern within any company. Things often go downhill in other departments, responsible for completely different things.

Everybody needs to keep in mind that TiVoMargret is a bona-fide, true TiVo employee, while the call-center (and most of the other support-providing people) are not.

I'll happily call for TiVo to pink-slip the whole contract with the outsourced support-provider they have been using. I've publicly called for this many times. These are the support staff that are the meaning of "one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing". Example: During a TiVo service outage, continuing to make people reboot every device, reconfigure their networks, blaming the customer (or customer non-TiVo equipment), while TiVoMargret is publicly stating there is a problem, they are working on it, and repeatedly apologizing.

There used to be a time when there were enough good apples in the call center, that for me to say such a thing, I'd get napalmed. Lately, I don't get a lot of support on that stance, nor do I get vehement objections (or napalmed).

Before anybody makes claims about what the support center people really are, I'll point out that I went on a "truth-finding" mission, and found that it is policy for all support people to state "yes, I'm an actual employee of TiVo", when asked. It is policy for the outsourced support people to make every assurance that you are not speaking to a generic solutions-provider.


----------



## nooneuknow

moyekj said:


> The first unintentional software rollback affecting 100 people was perhaps understandable/forgivable. For it to happen again despite VP involvement is just complete incompetence no matter how small the number affected. My guess is nobody will be fired over it in this day and age of lack of accountability...


There's a perspective I can agree with. I just wish there was a way to find out who the "incompetent" person, or department, is that deserves that designation. Before TiVoMargret came along, I wouldn't hesitate to just call TiVo, as a whole, incompetent, or blame them of incompetence.

I would think I'm not alone in feeling that TiVo's retail customer numbers would be sliding downhill, if we didn't have her. Think about how many bugs/issues she was right on top of, when the Roamio first came out. I had no interest in upgrading, and was considering just letting my older units live out their "lifetimes", and giving TiVo no more business. She turned that around. If she wasn't around, and I had upgraded, I'd likely have used the 30-day money back guarantee.

Now I'm wondering if she has enough power, or resources, to make what needs to change, actually change.

I'll confess, as full-disclosure, that a big part of my upgrade, was the period when I had felt she mostly dropped the ball on the Premiere users, and was devoting all her time and effort to Roamio users. I went where her attention and resources were. The price of admission was switching to Roamios.

I sure hope that the recent state of things is something that will pass. Anybody stating what it is, or isn't, is only speculating.


----------



## aaronwt

nooneuknow said:


> Psst, your true-colors are showing...
> 
> I don't see that as putting it in "the proper perspective", more like *"your perspective"*, especially with the lovely *"More importantly it doesn't affect me (you)"* comment. Then, you assign your arbitrary number of "20 customers" as a threshold... I sincerely now have an improper wish that you had been hit by it, then hit again. I doubt you'd be so complacent, or supportive of TiVo. I keep stating I haven't been hit, but have been supportive of those who have been, or were worried they would be. It would have been easy to claim I had been hit, or hit twice, and align with them. It's against my moral/ethical code-of-conduct to do that, though.
> 
> I was just wondering, right before arronwt reported a second rollback, if I had a reason to make sure my Recently Deleted folders on three TiVos should stay empty. I was actually giving TiVo the benefit of the doubt, and not making sure of it, once TiVoMarget made her announcement, and I hadn't seen further reports. Now, I have to feel like if I don't keep clearing them out, and I get hit by this problem, I have to partially blame myself for not doing it, should I be hit, and have to clean up the resulting mess. It's the mentality of the "fanboys", who feel TiVo can do no wrong, and would b-slap me for complaining, that force this convoluted way of thinking, even though it's against the way I'd think regarding any other product I own.
> 
> .................


I got hit a second time. Sure it could have been a big PITA if I hadn't noticed the pending restart. But luckily I did. Plus there are alot of repeats right now so the effect would have been as bad as say in May, November, or February when everything is new.
Now if my hard drive would have died or something that that would have been bad. But if that was the case it would have happened sooner or later anyway.

And it's not like it deleted any of my shows or Season passes. Only that previously deleted shows came back. i had the sixty or seventy shows deleted again in a few minutes.

I not going to do anything different with my deleted folder. If the shows come back they come back. That only takes a few minutes to delete again. It's selecting my channel list again that takes some time. That took me around 10 to 15 minutes for me to check/uncheck and mark as favorites.


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## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> I got hit a second time. Sure it could have been a big PITA if I hadn't noticed the pending restart. But luckily I did. Plus there are alot of repeats right now so the effect would have been as bad as say in May, November, or February when everything is new.
> Now if my hard drive would have died or something that that would have been bad. But if that was the case it would have happened sooner or later anyway.
> 
> And it's not like it deleted any of my shows or Season passes. Only that previously deleted shows came back. i had the sixty or seventy shows deleted again in a few minutes.
> 
> I not going to do anything different with my deleted folder. If the shows come back they come back. That only takes a few minutes to delete again. It's selecting my channel list again that takes some time. That took me around 10 to 15 minutes for me to check/uncheck and mark as favorites.


I've learned to just respect your stance on things (or sometimes just not to argue with them).   

I'm more concerned about whether the person who had an "update" pending, who got stuck on the reboot, and seems content with accepting drive failure, actually has a failed drive.

Last time I pulled a Roamio from service, to see if why a perfectly good drive was failing most of the TiVo KS54 tests, I found it would fail the unused stock drive, as well (on all the specialized tests one expects not to work on a non-stock drive). The test that person loosely described, sounds to be one of the questionable specialized tests.

Not many, that have said anything, have even been in the KS menus of a Roamio, and even less of them have run the KS54 drive tests. I was pretty much told (by forum members), that any testing should be done by a PC using the drive manufacturer diags (and everything passed, repeatedly, and I put my upgrade drive back in). Once I quit questioning the matter, the discussion died. The overwhelming consensus was that I should just trust the PC-performed results, and ignore the TiVo-performed results.

That said, how can anybody be certain that the first person (that I can recall, or am aware of) to report that TiVo instructed them to use the KS54 tests, and had a failure result, actually has a failed drive? It might not be a bad/failed drive.

If they'd attached it to a PC and run manufacturer diags, resulting in a failure status, I'd 100% accept it was a bad drive, and nothing more.

I never meant to use your double-rollback experience as a means to an end, or to misrepresent anything, if you feel that I did. I just neglected to include (or reference) my concerns about the person who person who was bricked during an update process, and is pretty convinced it's a drive failure, without testing the drive outside of the TiVo.

Valid concerns, right?


tlrowley said:


> I just got rolled back to 20.3.8. This wasn't the second time, but I was very surprised. I thought they had stopped it.





tlrowley said:


> Thanks, I did do that. She got back to me really quickly :up::up: and said I was one of 13 rather unlucky boxes that rolled back  Triskaidekaphobia anyone?





tlrowley said:


> Did anyone watch the re-update (from 20.3.8 to 20.4.1 for the second or third time) notice how long it took? Mine has been on "preparing the update" for 2 1/2 hours, and I'm starting to get worried.





tlrowley said:


> Thanks, Andy - I gave up at close to 3 hours and pulled the plug. It stayed on "almost there" for 20 minutes and I pulled the plug again. I'm currently running SMART tests on the drive.
> 
> Considering I had trouble with a Mac OSX update yesterday, this isn't turning out to be a stellar week for tech for me  *sigh*





tlrowley said:


> Well, it officially appears to be dead - stuck on "almost there" for 45 minutes.
> 
> Called tech support and they were less than helpful - didn't want to do anything beyond the script, which I get that they need. When I asked about escalating to 2nd tier support, she said "there's nothing more I can do for you. thank you for calling tivo" and hung up.





tlrowley said:


> Thanks - I did the online chat and didn't get a solution, but at least the communication was better this time. They want me to run the overnight disk test and then pay $50 to replace the box.
> 
> I truly never understood people's complaints with tivo support until that call - I was horrified! I ran tech support for a small software company (back when dinosaurs roamed the earth), so I know what "problem" callers sound like, and I'm especially sensitive to being that "problem". I never lost my temper, and I certainly never cursed. I will admit to being frustrated, but I don't think I was in any way, shape or form the sort of customer that needs to be hung up on!





tlrowley said:


> Tivo got back to me (gotta love twitter!) and they're replacing my box!
> 
> In doing the KS54 testing - the first few (quick) SMART tests pass, but trying to run the overnight test fails immediately (can't access /dev/hda (hdb) Whatever the rollback did, it was a doozy.


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## CloudAtlas

aaronwt said:


> I got hit a second time. Sure it could have been a big PITA if I hadn't noticed the pending restart. But luckily I did. Pus there are alot of repeats right now so the effect would have been as bad as say in May, November, or February when everything is new.
> Now if my hard drive would have died or something that that would have been bad. But if that was the case it would have happened sooner or later anyway.
> l
> And it's not like it deleted any of my shows or Season passes. Only that previously deleted shows came back. i had the sixty or seventy shows deleted again in a few minutes.
> 
> I not going to do anything different with my deleted folder. If the shows come back they come back. That only takes a few minutes to delete again. It's selecting my channel list again that takes some time. That took me around 10 to 15 minutes for me to check/uncheck and mark as favorites.


Exactly. Mistakes happen and you roll with it. It's only a DVR people. Learn to get some perspective.

Enjoy the weekend!


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## CloudAtlas

nooneuknow said:


> Psst, your true-colors are showing...
> 
> I don't see that as putting it in "the proper perspective", more like *"your perspective"*, especially with the lovely *"More importantly it doesn't affect me (you)"* comment. Then, you assign your arbitrary number of "20 customers" as a threshold...


They were meant as jokes. I read about this on Zatz twitter feed only to find out that only 13 boxes were affected. Perspective. Apple minor iOS updates have affected millions and no one says boo.

@nooneuknow Never has one said so little with so many words. Try to keep it pithy.


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## nooneuknow

CloudAtlas said:


> @nooneuknow Never has one said so little with so many words. Try to keep it pithy.


Keeping things short leads to misinterpretation of what I say, and many follow-up posts to clear such things up. If it bothers you so much, I invite you to add me to your ignore list. It would be an honor.


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## Joe01880

CloudAtlas said:


> Exactly. Mistakes happen and you roll with it. It's only a DVR people. Learn to get some perspective.
> 
> Enjoy the weekend!


It is a very expensive DVR and TiVo has a history of blaming their end problems on everyone except themselves.
If a perfectly well running TiVo starts acting up or getting crazy after an update more then likely it's the update that's causing the problem.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## aaronwt

I don't know about being expensive. If I had DVRs from Comcast or FiOS in my area. The cost to me over several years is easily on par or more than for the TiVos. Plus I wouldn't have the option to sell it when I'm finished with them further reducing the cost. The cable company DVRs are the ones that are expensive.


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## anthonymoody

All of this is precisely why I found the prior "explanation" of what happened completely unsatisfactory. If we'd never again had this problem occur then it would still have been bad process with a fortunate outcome. 

However, the problem not only recurred, but did so in troubling ways: we have people getting re-rolled back, and people getting rolled back for the first time. It reflects poorly on 
Tivo, to out it mildly.

For my part, I can't get an eyeball in edgewise this morning bc my kids are gaming.


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