# Hdvr2 + 6.3 = Fubar?



## descentr (Mar 24, 2002)

I awoke this morning with a not so pleasant surprise. At first I thought my TV had bitten the dust. Fortunately it is ok. Unfortunately, the #1 production hardware/application in my house was not working. My HDVR2 appeared to be on, but there was no signal to the tv (unless black screen is a signal). Wouldn't respond to the remote or buttons on the front panel. Unplugged it from the UPS, waited, plugged it back in, all is good. 

Hours later, watching tv. The picture disappears and I see that the Tivo has decided to reboot itself. *sigh* Minutes later, signal restored, all is good. I did notice some artifacts popping up today, which I rarely ever see, and it happened several times during one movie. When it was over and I was watching other channels, I didn't notice any more artifacting, so maybe it was localized to that channel or LNB? 

Hours later, come home from dinner, and o'le black screen is back. Box won't respond, just as before. Unplug, reboot, all is good. 

The only "hack" I have on this unit is an upgraded drive from weaknees. 

I do not know when I got the 6.3 "upgrade," but this thing has been rock solid for years until today. I have read others are having problems, but most seem to be with different units and they are having different issues than I am. I am just wondering if it is just a coincidence or if the patch is to blame for this behavior? If the patch is indeed to blame, is there any info on a patch to the patch? 

Any input is appreciated. 

Thanks, 
Mike


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## Dkerr24 (Oct 29, 2004)

I'd recommend calling Directv to voice your complaints. The problems you describe sound more like a hard drive failure to me.


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

I have 6.3e running on Multiple machines, It runs fine, even upgraded channel icons. I think you are blaming Directv for your failure to maintain your hardware!


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## descentr (Mar 24, 2002)

rbtravis said:


> I have 6.3e running on Multiple machines, It runs fine, even upgraded channel icons. I think you are blaming Directv for your failure to maintain your hardware!


I installed the drive from weaknees about 6 months ago. I keep tabs on the temp (47-50C), and the unit has been on an APC UPS since it was installed. Not sure what else I could have done to maintain the unit. The GXCEBOT I have is much older and I did that upgrade myself using hinsdale's guide way back when. It is still purring along on that replacement samsung drive now since December of 2002.

Thanks for your constructive comments though...

Mike


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## descentr (Mar 24, 2002)

Dkerr24 said:


> I'd recommend calling Directv to voice your complaints. The problems you describe sound more like a hard drive failure to me.


Definitely not what I wanted to hear. One thought on the artifacts, it was cloudier today than I realized and we got several small storms to roll through. That could explain away that particular symptom, but it still leaves me with the black screen and rebooting.

Thanks for your input. I may try calling them, though If I do I will probably end up trading up to an HD unit. 

Mike


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## jimbop99 (Sep 27, 2004)

I've had the same problems with the black screen and the rebooting, but my Hughes has actually been behaving for the last week. I had the problems right after the software install but, like I said, it has been OK lately (crossing fingers). I hope yours clears up too.


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## kalex (Sep 5, 2007)

descentr said:


> Definitely not what I wanted to hear. One thought on the artifacts, it was cloudier today than I realized and we got several small storms to roll through. That could explain away that particular symptom, but it still leaves me with the black screen and rebooting.
> 
> Thanks for your input. I may try calling them, though If I do I will probably end up trading up to an HD unit.
> 
> Mike


There are at least two other threads going on this forum about reboots after 'upgrading' to 6.3. Some people have no problems, some have big problems. Mine is somewhere in between, it reboots about once a day, sometimes less, sometimes more. One guy has a unit that reboots every 15 minutes. All 3 of his are doing it. We have two and they're both doing it. The only way that I know it rebooted sometimes is because my 30 second skip disappears, but most of the time it does it while I'm watching something. The other unit isn't used much, so we can only tell by the missing 30 second skip.

Please do call, if they don't get enough complaints, they won't acknowledge the problem, and it won't get fixed.


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## descentr (Mar 24, 2002)

jimbop99 said:


> I've had the same problems with the black screen and the rebooting, but my Hughes has actually been behaving for the last week. I had the problems right after the software install but, like I said, it has been OK lately (crossing fingers). I hope yours clears up too.


Well, since posting, it hasn't "black screened" again. Can't say whether or not it has rebooted though as we aren't watching it all the time. I have read other threads where people said they were having problems and then it "stabilized" after a couple of weeks. Most of those threads were on different models and with different symptoms though. Still, like you, my fingers are crossed.

Thanks for your input,
Mike

P.S. Kalex, I posted in another thread here too. I sent DirecTv an email detailing my symptoms and asked if they were acknowledging any issues with the 6.3 patch. The bulk of their response was:

"Thanks for writing. I'm sorry to hear that you are having trouble with your HDVR2 receiver. Based on my research, I found no known issues reported yet regarding our most recent software download. However, we've found simply resetting your receiver will often restore your service."

followed with instructions on how to reset the system.


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## SASouth (Jun 5, 2004)

I don't think you're having hardware failure. You're not the only one experiencing these issues. 

I've got a HDVR2 and DSR-704 that are both locking up at a black screen. All of this happened after a 6.3e upgrade. The HDVR2 got the upgrade two weeks before the DSR-704 got it. Almost immediately after getting the upgrade, the HDVR2 started locking up while the DSR-704 continued to work fine. Soon after the DSR-704 got the upgrade it started locking up too.

I find it extremely unlikely that both of my Tivos would develop a hardware problem within a couple of weeks of each other and then only after both received the 6.3 upgrade.


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## Beer Geek (Mar 14, 2007)

FWIW, the exact same thing has happened to my HDVR2 a few times now. Glad to hear I'm not the only one, since the responses I got a couple of weeks ago didn't really acknowledge this was going on.


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## scopus (Mar 26, 2002)

Put me down for a "me too" on the black screen/no remote response/reboot issues. I have two units but only one has been acting up, DSR7000. I guess it could be a harddrive problem (no hacks but I do have two drives in it with weaknees mount/fan). I'll give it a few more days to see if it clears up, I'm hoping so.


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## Duffycoug (Feb 12, 2007)

Add me to the list.....3 TIVOS running flawlessly before the upgrade, now all three are rebooting constantly and I even traded one in for an R15 before I realized it was a software problem....shame.


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## rwilliams (Sep 8, 2007)

September 8th was when my Philips 704 went down and never came back. I had programs I needed that night to record, so I grabbed my old DSR 6000 and put it in action, and disconnected the 704. This was a un-modified unit - no added drives, no hacks, nothing. Now, I've been in the process of upgrading the drive in order to get the unit to work again, but I just came across this post, and realize I'm not alone. 

This P!55es me OFF!

Makes me wish they would give you an OPTION to receive updates. (actually, I don't know if they do or not). But why fix something that's not broke.


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## scopus (Mar 26, 2002)

As I stated earlier, I had been experiencing the blank screen freeze and reboots since the last software update. A reboot usually fixed things for awhile. Well, Sunday morning I awoke to the "Welcome. Powering up..." screen and it stayed there for hours. I put the original drive that I saved back in the unit and everything is working. Although the software version is 3.xx, man I had forgotten how slow the menu and functions were back then. So I guess the harddrives were going bad. Have a new 500gb drive on the way but not sure I'm going to put 6.3 on it. I think I have a 6.2 image around here somewhere.


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## rock_doctor (Oct 22, 2000)

Unfortunately, somebody posted in the other thread that they reloaded the drive with the 6.2 software, left it unplugged from the phone and it still updated to 6.3. 

The pixelation is a new thing. I have also been seeing this on my units and the dish is clear and signal quality is rock solid. Call and complain, they need to know how wide spread the problem is... I just don't understand why the last couple updates have been a problem. Nobody knows the units better then TiVo.?.?.?.

mark


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## Duffycoug (Feb 12, 2007)

scopus said:


> As I stated earlier, I had been experiencing the blank screen freeze and reboots since the last software update. A reboot usually fixed things for awhile. Well, Sunday morning I awoke to the "Welcome. Powering up..." screen and it stayed there for hours. I put the original drive that I saved back in the unit and everything is working. Although the software version is 3.xx, man I had forgotten how slow the menu and functions were back then. So I guess the harddrives were going bad. Have a new 500gb drive on the way but not sure I'm going to put 6.3 on it. I think I have a 6.2 image around here somewhere.


Why would you draw the conclusion that the harddrive was bad, when in fact you stated that the harddrive that is working is using the older software...LOL....doesn't make any sense to me, but whatever floats your boat I guess....seems much more likely that the software is the cause of the thousand of simultaneous problems we are all having, rather than an epidemic of thousands of harddrives going bad within a two week span that just so happened to coincide with the latest software release on those units.....common sense.


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

"Welcome. Powering up" is a rom based message and the only one prior to disk spin-up and the first disk read. If the disks fail to read it may mean the disks have slowed down over time and are no longer performing within specifications. Remember Maxtor used to do ATA133 drives, and now are doing ATA100 drives, just like people as drives get old they slow down. It may be time to replace the small older drives with Larger capacity drives.


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## Duffycoug (Feb 12, 2007)

rbtravis said:


> "Welcome. Powering up" is a rom based message and the only one prior to disk spin-up and the first disk read. If the disks fail to read it may mean the disks have slowed down over time and are no longer performing within specifications. Remember Maxtor used to do ATA133 drives, and now are doing ATA100 drives, just like people as drives get old they slow down. It may be time to replace the small older drives with Larger capacity drives.


Yes, they all got "old" within the same two week period when DTV rolled out the new software.....while I understand what you're saying, and I would believe this to be the case if it were an isolated event...there is NO WAY thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of the same kind of units hard drives went bad in the same two week period....I'm no computer genius, but that sounds completely unrational to me.


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

Remember Directv has over 3 million Tivo customers, the average life of a disk running 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year is 4 years. Tivo stopped manufacturing fo Directv 3 years ago. A couple hundred failures is really less than average out of three Million.


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## Duffycoug (Feb 12, 2007)

rbtravis said:


> Remember Directv has over 3 million Tivo customers, the average life of a disk running 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year is 4 years. Tivo stopped manufacturing fo Directv 3 years ago. A couple hundred failures is really less than average out of three Million.


Again, you either do not have one of the units that are being effected, or you have one that is not running 6.3e software....otherwise, you'd clearly recognize the problem and there would be no question in your mind that it was the software release. Many, many, many poster have written that they have CHANGED their hard drives only to have the exact same problem once the unit downloads the 6.3e software....just read the threads and you'll see that fact.

Funny thing, there goes yet another "Welcome. Powering up...." right in the middle of the Chisox/Royals game....ya gotta love DTV and the way they ignore glaring problems.


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

I have 5 Directv Tivos all currently running 6.3e all recently upgraded from 6.2a and none of them are having any problems. All are RCA's the smallest drive is 250GB and the largest is 500GB. Drives are Western Digital, Samsung or Maxtor. Maybe the problem is yours and not Directv's. When was the last time you updated your equipment. Did you use a good image such as DVRupgrade or did you do it on the cheap?


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## Duffycoug (Feb 12, 2007)

rbtravis said:


> I have 5 Directv Tivos all currently running 6.3e all recently upgraded from 6.2a and none of them are having any problems. All are RCA's the smallest drive is 250GB and the largest is 500GB. Drives are Western Digital, Samsung or Maxtor. Maybe the problem is yours and not Directv's. When was the last time you updated your equipment. Did you use a good image such as DVRupgrade or did you do it on the cheap?


All of mine are untouched, and all 3 started doing the same thing within one day of each other.....so please tell me, what are the odds that all three hard drives went bad within the same 24 hour period, when all 3 are different units, purhased at different time, from different places AND NONE HAD ANY PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER.....OH, AND DID I MENTION THAT DURING THIS SAME 24 HOUR PERIOD THAT ALL RECEIVED 6.3E? Get off your high horse and open your eyes. Many other subscribers have multiple units and it's happening on all units at the same time.


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

Instead of crying and shouting like a baby why don't you try an experiment. Open one box and replace the hard drive with one that you buy with the image installed from Weeknees or Dvrupgrade. All you have to do is install it and see if the problem goes away. If it does than you have one Tivo at least, that will last another three to five years instead of three boat anchors. If it does work you could continue to enjoy the Tivo. Also remember to replace the 2032 battery. It looks like a quarter and can be acquired for under $2.00 at Walmart. Remember Directv will replace your Tivo with their DVR for a two year commitment on your part. If you bought all three at the same time it is possible that they would fail at the same time. HDDVR were last made in 2003, you can find the date code on the back of the machine. What do you expect. If you haven't cleaned it since then expect the inside to be dusty. I suggest you go to the TiVo Upgrade Forum and read the New Upgrade Experience thread. Another potential supplier.


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## Duffycoug (Feb 12, 2007)

rbtravis said:


> Instead of crying and shouting like a baby why don't you try an experiment. Open one box and replace the hard drive with one that you buy with the image installed from Weeknees or Dvrupgrade. All you have to do is install it and see if the problem goes away. If it does than you have one Tivo at least, that will last another three to five years instead of three boat anchors. If it does work you could continue to enjoy the Tivo. Also remember to replace the 2032 battery. It looks like a quarter and can be acquired for under $2.00 at Walmart. Remember Directv will replace your Tivo with their DVR for a two year commitment on your part. If you bought all three at the same time it is possible that they would fail at the same time. HDDVR were last made in 2003, you can find the date code on the back of the machine. What do you expect. If you haven't cleaned it since then expect the inside to be dusty. I suggest you go to the TiVo Upgrade Forum and read the New Upgrade Experience thread. Another potential supplier.


What an idiotic message.....I'd say at least 90% of your posted message is made up of incorrect assumptions on your behalf.....all bought at the same time (no), never opened and cleaned (wrong again)...describing a 2032 battery (LOL.....that's a good one).....do you also talk down to others like you do to the posters in this forum? Experiments?...many, all of which point directly to a bad software release. I just hope you're around when they send out the patch and all of these units go back to working perfectly.


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

This is supposed to be a help forum not a rant and rave forum. If you have problems with the software contact TiVo, they do all the programming. Directv merely distributes the software. If you have a hardware problem try here or the upgrade forum. If you want to Rant and Rave go to a discussion forum here we try to make suggestions to fix problems not blame. If you Tivo does not work blame yourself not Directv who merely distributed TiVo's software. All of My TiVo's are working perfectly. If yours are not maybe you are at fault and not Directv or Tivo. you are just a waste of time because you want someone else to fix it for you instead of fixing it yourself.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

rbtravis said:


> This is supposed to be a help forum not a rant and rave forum. If you have problems with the software contact TiVo, they do all the programming. Directv merely distributes the software. If you have a hardware problem try here or the upgrade forum. If you want to Rant and Rave go to a discussion forum here we try to make suggestions to fix problems not blame. If you Tivo does not work blame yourself not Directv who merely distributed TiVo's software. All of My TiVo's are working perfectly. If yours are not maybe you are at fault and not Directv or Tivo. you are just a waste of time because you want someone else to fix it for you instead of fixing it yourself.


DirecTV has a much bigger role and responsibility than merely distributing the software.

DirecTV owns the customer relationship for all TiVo-based DVRs offered by DirecTV. TiVo support will NOT talk to a DirecTV customer about DirecTiVo issues of any kind.

I have one HDVR2 out of service since the 6.3e upgrade. I have two HR10-250's that both work fine since the upgrade. I have no way of proving whether this is purely a software issue, purely a hard drive issue, or some abnormal interaction between the two.

I have no intention of opening the box on any of my DirecTiVo units, SD or HD. An everyday DirecTV customer with TiVo-based DVRs should not be expected to open the box and replace hard drives.


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

Dave if you go to DVRupgrade and purchase InstantCake with PTVnet you can roll your software back to 6.2a and not have to have your receiver connected to the phone line. PPV movies can be ordered through the web. Once you have gone back
to 6.2a remember to restart the recorder if you get 6.3e downloaded again or purchase and install the slicer which will prevent 6.3e downloads (any download for that matter) and your machine will work again. Any programming issues will have to be resolved between Directv and Tivo. That could take a long time. The TiVo / Echostar suit has been going on for years with Echostar's appeals. I do not wish to wait that long. All I am saying is that the TiVo appears to work better with the newer larger drives. Also judging from my screens the new download appears to be 3GB larger because that is the amount by which my available space dropped by after the download. Good Luck on whatever you decide.


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

I have just run an experiment on a Hughes Network Systems - series2 HDVR2. it rolled over to 6.3e-01-2-151 last night it is service number151-0000-A01D-2A5A The drive is a Western Digital manufactured in early 2003. The recording capacity shows as 64 hours instead of the normal 70 hours on 6.2a. I will give it a couple of days and let you know the results.


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

rbtravis said:


> I have just run an experiment on a Hughes Network Systems - series2 HDVR2. it rolled over to 6.3e-01-2-151 last night it is service number151-0000-A01D-2A5A The drive is a Western Digital manufactured in early 2003. The recording capacity shows as 64 hours instead of the normal 70 hours on 6.2a. I will give it a couple of days and let you know the results.


Overnite the first 24 hours from upgrade. The system is running fine, completely normal
Updated Drive info - (just removed the lid) Drive Western Digital model WD800LB-55DNA0 MfG 09 JUL 04 RCA TESTED 15 JUL 04 drive set to cable select (TiVo standard)


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

TiVo still working without any problems.
Observations: 
1: The new software uses 6GB more space - quite a lot if only a 40gb drive.
2: The 80gb drives used by TiVo had 8gb buffer 40gb drives had 2gb Buffer.
3. The 80gb drives are 7200rpm the 40gb drives only 5400 rpm which is 33% slower.
4. I replaced the 2032 battery with a new one. On the IBM PC this battery powered a chip that housed the real time clock and memory that was used to store the Hard Drive Parameters. I do not know what purpose it is used for on the TiVo but the battery has a working life of three to four years. Maybe it is used for the same purpose on the MIPS System that TiVo uses.
Conclusion: I was unable to duplicate the failure using a stock HDVR2 TiVo. If Tivo software programmers are unable to duplicate the failure it is unlikely that a fix will occur.
Suggestions: replace 2032 battery - Tivo put it there for a reason.
Replace hard drive - prices are reasonable now. Either use Instantcake from DVRupgrade, or buy an imaged drive from DVRupgrade or Weaknees. Both have been around for quite a while and are quite reputable. If both of these suggestions bother you, I am sorry, the warranty on the hard drive and the Tivo was only 1 year.


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## gamo62 (Oct 12, 2002)

rbtravis said:


> "Welcome. Powering up" is a rom based message and the only one prior to disk spin-up and the first disk read. If the disks fail to read it may mean the disks have slowed down over time and are no longer performing within specifications. Remember Maxtor used to do ATA133 drives, and now are doing ATA100 drives, just like people as drives get old they slow down. It may be time to replace the small older drives with Larger capacity drives.


It also may be time to replace the Power Supply. Since it is the one conponent that is central to everything else.


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## Jumi (Sep 27, 2003)

SDVR80 with newer weaknees drive. Turned on TV this am and had a frozen image, no sound, no remote response. Rebooted it and OK since. I'm blaming software.


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## hglr (Sep 20, 2007)

My HDVR2 died Wednesday evening -- locked-up on while a show was paused, and now it never gets past the reboot screens.

I have the original 40GB drive in there along with a 160GB drive purchased from Weaknees a year or two ago. While I agree that hard drives die all the time, I don't think that is a sufficient explanation here. Every hard-drive that has died on me has given some form or warning -- groaning or whining -- before actually dying, but that didn't happen here. Plus the coincidence of multiple people having their drives die within a week of each other and when a new version of the software has just been pushed out is too great to be ignored.

I called DirecTV, and their response was pretty useless. The tech support guy offered me a new DVR (which I really don't want) and said that they have no control of the software, claiming it comes directly from TiVo over the phone line, not from DirecTV.

Next step is to remove the hard drives and run some utilities on them to see if they are truly dead, or if the software on them is just bad.


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

The Maxtor ATA133 drives have a history of slowing down over time and running out of spec. Maybe Tivo or Maxtor can not handle the step/down process in the spec. I again say Replace the drive and the battery and your Tivo will most likely work. I have three that did. Note: I am suggesting a single drive not a Dual Drive because a single drive is easier on the power supply. The object of this discussion is to get the Tivo working again not to debate what is right or wrong. (That belongs in a discussion group forum)


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

Another 24 hours passed - No Change - everything running normal just 7200 rpm good quality disk, a new battery 2032, HDVR2, and software system 6.3e. Maybe the software is not the problem. Last post, don't have time to play anymore.


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## hglr (Sep 20, 2007)

I have my system running again with a new Seagate 500GB hard drive using InstantCake and PTVweb from DVRUpgrade. So I'm happy with that  -- big geek bragging rights -- but I'm out $170 that I didn't plan on spending three days ago, and I've lost all my recorded content, wishlists, etc.  

I still think the problem was software, not hardware. I have my two original hard drives sitting here untouched, if some Tivo or DirecTV engineer wants to look at them.

- Steve

P.S. I've posted details on another message if anyone having this trouble wants to save themselves some research -- I'd bet you can get yourself running again in an hour after a trip to Best Buy.


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## Duffycoug (Feb 12, 2007)

rbtravis said:


> Conclusion: I was unable to duplicate the failure using a stock HDVR2 TiVo. If Tivo software programmers are unable to duplicate the failure it is unlikely that a fix will occur.
> Suggestions: replace 2032 battery - Tivo put it there for a reason.
> Replace hard drive - prices are reasonable now. Either use Instantcake from DVRupgrade, or buy an imaged drive from DVRupgrade or Weaknees. Both have been around for quite a while and are quite reputable. If both of these suggestions bother you, I am sorry, the warranty on the hard drive and the Tivo was only 1 year.


OR, just wait until Directv acknowledges it's error and fixes the software and don't touch your box...it will eventually be fine once they fix the problem they caused. BTW, nice sampling....2 whole days...wow....do you work for Directv?


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

hglr said:


> I have my system running again with a new Seagate 500GB hard drive using InstantCake and PTVweb from DVRUpgrade. So I'm happy with that  -- big geek bragging rights -- but I'm out $170 that I didn't plan on spending three days ago, and I've lost all my recorded content, wishlists, etc.
> 
> I still think the problem was software, not hardware. I have my two original hard drives sitting here untouched, if some Tivo or DirecTV engineer wants to look at them.
> 
> ...


Steve,

Glad you got things up and running; and thanks for using our stuff.

If you do have time to run diags on those drives, I'd be willing to bet one (or both) of them will fail either the basic or advanced diagnostics. If they don't, try running a "low level" format on them.

In most cases, it is a bad drive that is the source of the failure. And, I've not personally known any cases where a software upgrade was the cause of a failure like yours.

Lou


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## rednecktek (Sep 22, 2007)

I've been having these exact same problems with my HDVR2, specifically since the upgrade to 6.3e. I know it is not a hardware issue but I may pull my unit apart (as I have another Hughes TiVo in waiting).

I just got off the phone with DirecTV. They tried all the same lines as above to get out of the issue. I asked them to have someone check this forum to see that people are having a problem with this upgrade. I honestly doubt they will check, but I will call every time it locks up until this gets fixed, or I leave their service.


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

Duffycoug said:


> OR, just wait until Directv acknowledges it's error and fixes the software and don't touch your box...it will eventually be fine once they fix the problem they caused. BTW, nice sampling....2 whole days...wow....do you work for Directv?


 No I am just a hobbyist I don't see you running any tests for free, just criticizing. And for your information the test is still running and the HDVR2 is working perfectly. Lets see you do some testing to prove your point or is all you can do is complain. Directv does not have to acknowledge an error to you because their software works. What did you do to your machine to make it fail? The vast majority of machines are working. Maybe someday you will fix yours. All my machines work because they are maintained. If yours were properly maintained they would probably also be working.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

Just to fill some folks in, this is a perfect example of 'history repeating itself' -- I've seen this happen at least ten times in the past seven years:

1) TiVo or DirecTV releases a software upgrade
2) some units fail
3) other units experience problems, due to bugs
4) reasonable people come to the conclusion that you cannot generalize about these things

My point is this... most FAILURES are due to bad hard drives. This is not speculation, but fact. The reason such failures seem to increase at the time of these software upgrades has nothing to do with the software itself, but the process of the software upgrade. 

How can that be? When a new software version is downloaded and installed, it utilizes two "dormant" partitions on the hard drive. These partitions have been dormant since the previous software upgrade. And when the new upgrade comes down, the two dormant partitions become active, and the previously active ones become dormant; awaiting the next release of the software.

In short, many of these failures now surface because part of the drive, that had previously been unused for some, is now being used and has become unreliable.

Whether you want to blame DirecTV, TiVo, the hard drive manufacturer, or sun spots is entirely up to you -- but from a technical standpoint, and one of probabilities, that is what is going on.

Now, even based on my own experience, and having seen hundreds and hundreds (possibly thousands) of bad units, I will still not generalize. But I will also state that there is no way to KNOW about your specific situation without diagnosing it - so don't make any assumptions until you've ruled out ALL of the possibilities. 

Knowing that the most common cause of failure during a software upgrade is a defective hard drive, my recommendation has always been to diagnose the problem before pointing fingers. 

I'm too lazy right now to find all the old posts that many others have written documenting this phenomenon, but there are plenty of people around here who have seen this before and will agree on what is likely and unlikely.

So, anyone who has a failing unit that IS willing to enjoy the fun of popping open their box and running diags might be surprised to find that there is a sick drive in there...


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## kenr (Dec 26, 1999)

Let me also remind folks of the DTiVo, Series 1, 3.1.0c upgrade fiasco. That release also resulted in lots of customer complaints. Eventually we found it was really was a software bug and TiVo and DirecTV owned up to it and fixed it with 3.1.0c2. Here's a thread for reference on that issue: http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=187283

I too have seen the rash of complaints every time a new release comes out and I do believe most of them were hard drive related. I've been a TiVo user and member of this forum since then, but this time, my gut feeling is that we really have a software problem on our hands.


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

I find it hard to believe that there has only been one bug in eight years. Sounds like TiVo and Directv have a pretty good track record. Thanks kenr for bringing this to our attention.


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## Duffycoug (Feb 12, 2007)

tivoupgrade said:


> Just to fill some folks in, this is a perfect example of 'history repeating itself' -- I've seen this happen at least ten times in the past seven years:
> 
> 1) TiVo or DirecTV releases a software upgrade
> 2) some units fail
> ...


I'd love to pop open the box and run some diagostic tests.....please tell me how do to it and I'll report back to this thread.


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## robpickles (May 19, 2005)

tivoupgrade said:


> How can that be? When a new software version is downloaded and installed, it utilizes two "dormant" partitions on the hard drive. These partitions have been dormant since the previous software upgrade. And when the new upgrade comes down, the two dormant partitions become active, and the previously active ones become dormant; awaiting the next release of the software.
> 
> In short, many of these failures now surface because part of the drive, that had previously been unused for some, is now being used and has become unreliable.
> 
> Whether you want to blame DirecTV, TiVo, the hard drive manufacturer, or sun spots is entirely up to you -- but from a technical standpoint, and one of probabilities, that is what is going on.


How do you explain those people that have since swapped out with brand new hard drives and tested out our theory?

When the new drive is put in brand new with version 6.2 its working perfectly. Then days later when they let it update to 6.3e it starts to reboot. Are you telling us all those BRAND NEW hard drives are also defective?

Rob


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## Duffycoug (Feb 12, 2007)

robpickles said:


> How do you explain those people that have since swapped out with brand new hard drives and tested out our theory?
> 
> When the new drive is put in brand new with version 6.2 its working perfectly. Then days later when they let it update to 6.3e it starts to reboot. Are you telling us all those BRAND NEW hard drives are also defective?
> 
> Rob


Good point Rob....I'd love to run the diagnostics on my hard drive to show that there is nothing wrong with it, hopefully I'll get the intel soon so I can do exactly that.


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## Duffycoug (Feb 12, 2007)

rbtravis said:


> No I am just a hobbyist I don't see you running any tests for free, just criticizing. And for your information the test is still running and the HDVR2 is working perfectly. Lets see you do some testing to prove your point or is all you can do is complain. Directv does not have to acknowledge an error to you *because their software works. What did you do to your machine to make it fail? The vast majority of machines are working. Maybe someday you will fix yours. All my machines work because they are maintained. If yours were properly maintained they would probably also be working*.


Hey rbtravis, are you ready to apologize yet for your antagonistic, grating remarks to all of us who are having problems, since there are MANY documented cases of people swapping out there HDs and having problems the minute they are upgraded to 6.3e???? I'm just curious, since you were so quick to blame us for 'not maintaining our equipment" with your pompous posts. I've seen some of your subsequent posts on other threads and you seem to be changing your tune now.

By the way, "the vast majority of machines are working" also seems to be INCORRECT judging by the poll that was posted by dvrupgrade, which shows that 75% of machines are NOT working properly since the software upgrade.


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## Pt121 (Mar 27, 2006)

tivoupgrade said:


> My point is this... most FAILURES are due to bad hard drives. This is not speculation, but fact. The reason such failures seem to increase at the time of these software upgrades has nothing to do with the software itself, but the process of the software upgrade.
> 
> How can that be? When a new software version is downloaded and installed, it utilizes two "dormant" partitions on the hard drive. These partitions have been dormant since the previous software upgrade. And when the new upgrade comes down, the two dormant partitions become active, and the previously active ones become dormant; awaiting the next release of the software.
> 
> In short, many of these failures now surface because part of the drive, that had previously been unused for some, is now being used and has become unreliable.


OK, I completely understand what you are talking about here. However, after pulling the drive and running the Hard Drives Manufaturers diagnostic utilities on the drive and come up with no errors, then where does that leave us?

I, for one, will not tempt fate and let the 6.3e update install on this new 250GB hard drive just to test and see what happens. Maybe if it would have been in the off season, but not now. And what about the many I've read through these forums that have let the update install, after a hard drive upgrade, and then end up with a rebooting units.....should then the place where they got the drive replace free of charge?? Even if the drive was put through tests that come up with no errors, should they be held accountable even though the drive tests good.......especially when the drive they pulled out test good as well.

I can't believe that two separate units within the same house hold start the same problems that all happen within a few days of a software update can all be hardware related. Do I blame the company or persons that told me it is probably a hard drive problem....NO I do not, but I will Blame DirecTv for it. Especially with there reaction or lack thereof for it all. It is awful funny that they only want you to upgrade to their units to solve the problems so they can get more money, but with the other hand they send out mailings informing us of the great Tivo upgrade we are going to get in Jan 08.

Just seems funny is all.

Patrick


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

Pt121 said:


> OK, I completely understand what you are talking about here. However, after pulling the drive and running the Hard Drives Manufaturers diagnostic utilities on the drive and come up with no errors, then where does that leave us?
> 
> Just seems funny is all.
> 
> Patrick


Yup; it sure does.

And as you stated, once you've ruled out the most obvious problem (a lot of people were skipping that step before jumping to conclusions, and its not just about being right - its about being right and having the data to support it), then its time to look further.

I started this thread several days later as I'd heard of a few situations were people had already run diags and were still having problems; if you haven't replied to the poll, please add yourself. Hopefully someone at DirecTV (or someone at TiVo who supports DirecTV) will notice, if they haven't already.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

robpickles said:


> How do you explain those people that have since swapped out with brand new hard drives and tested out our theory?
> 
> When the new drive is put in brand new with version 6.2 its working perfectly. Then days later when they let it update to 6.3e it starts to reboot. Are you telling us all those BRAND NEW hard drives are also defective?
> 
> Rob


No, definitely not - presumably, people who are putting brand new drives in their units are running diagnostics on them first, right? That means they've ruled that out as the problem.

Please see my previous post of a few minutes ago - definitely something else is going on, but my earlier point was to impart some best practices on folks when it comes to problems solving. If you'll notice, earlier in the thread, there was a lot of haste associated with blaming the software, yet very few folks had ruled out the most obvious culprit.

In the past, I've seen it happen when it wasn't the software and almost always the drive. And even if this time around it is a software bug, as things in this thread are suggesting, I'd still always recommend folks running the full diags - we've built a regimen based on this best practice and this recent software problem is still a drop in the bucket compared to the number of bad hard drives that have contributed to the demise of a TiVo vs a bug...

Its always good to rule out the highest probability source of a problem, especially when trying to build a case that there might be something wrong with the software...

Anyway, for the folks who wanted to be 'right' about the bug, it is looking that way. I wouldn't rub anyone's nose in it, though; unless you think it will get your TiVo working all that much faster!  [seriously, though - calling DirecTV probably IS the thing to do, but it doesn't seem like anyone there is listening]


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## robpickles (May 19, 2005)

tivoupgrade said:


> No, definitely not - presumably, people who are putting brand new drives in their units are running diagnostics on them first, right? That means they've ruled that out as the problem.


Why would someone have to run diagnostics on a brand new hard drive that we ordered from Weaknees or anywhere else that preps the drives in advance?

That suggests that the places the hds are ordered from are not checking their work. One would have to assume that a brand new hard drive that is ordered with the software pre-installed on it had ALREADY been checked out by the company they bought it from, right?

Well, I guess no one is perfect.

Rob


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

robpickles said:


> Why would someone have to run diagnostics on a brand new hard drive that we ordered from Weaknees or anywhere else that preps the drives in advance?
> 
> That suggests that the places the hds are ordered from are not checking their work. One would have to assume that a brand new hard drive that is ordered with the software pre-installed on it had ALREADY been checked out by the company they bought it from, right?
> 
> ...


Sorry, that is not what I meant. If the drive has been prepped by a vendor, then technically it is not "brand new" because it has already been taken out of the box, handled, prepped, possibly tested, and reshipped to you in another box. You should work with the vendor to get to the root of the problem, either way.

In any case, the general point I was making with respect to the original discussion here is that if you have a problem, try to rule out the most obvious culprit, and that is the hard drive.

And you are right, none of us are perfect. I assumed that the complaints associated with the 6.3e migration were a result of drive failures, but tried to keep an open mind and be objective in the approach. Best practices (we defined them) dictate thoroughly testing the drive and ruling that out, as well as replacing IDE cables...

Now I feel more comfortable in saying that I think its more than just bad drives, and we've almost got evidence to support it (I really can't prove anything, but with a bunch of people claiming to have ruled out bad drives, it is definitely looking more likely that its a software problem).

But even now, I will stop short of announcing that I am 100% convinced that is a software problem because I really don't have any proof. For all I know, it could be marginally operating hardware and that even though the software upgrade triggered the problem, a hardware component could be defective and the software may be less resilient to that failure. But I really don't know...

The scientific method at its best...


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## robpickles (May 19, 2005)

tivoupgrade said:


> Sorry, that is not what I meant. If the drive has been prepped by a vendor, then technically it is not "brand new" because it has already been taken out of the box, handled, prepped, possibly tested, and reshipped to you in another box. You should work with the vendor to get to the root of the problem, either way.
> 
> In any case, the general point I was making with respect to the original discussion here is that if you have a problem, try to rule out the most obvious culprit, and that is the hard drive.


I understand what you are saying. My problem is that automatically everyone assumes it is the hard drive without knowing the situation. You are right also in saying that it is important to rule out all possibilities.



tivoupgrade said:


> Now I feel more comfortable in saying that I think its more than just bad drives, and we've almost got evidence to support it (I really can't prove anything, but with a bunch of people claiming to have ruled out bad drives, it is definitely looking more likely that its a software problem).
> 
> But even now, I will stop short of announcing that I am 100% convinced that is a software problem because I really don't have any proof. For all I know, it could be marginally operating hardware and that even though the software upgrade triggered the problem, a hardware component could be defective and the software may be less resilient to that failure. But I really don't know...


The main problem here is getting DirecTv to acknowledge that the problem exists. If they would listen to their customers complaints and acknowledge them instead of ignoring us, then their customers would be less likely to be so aggrivated if it ever happens again.

Whether there is some hidden agenda behind the software update problems or not, we will never know, but they are only thinking about how to avoid the problems instead of addressing them. Their solution is to offer their own R15 unit which is inferior to any Tivo unit - which has to be leased by us and connected to a 2 year agreement.

If it is the software causing the problems that makes them responsible - and that will cost them something (money, hard drives, new equipment, compensation, etc.). So instead of taking care of their customers and the problems, they are trying to profit from it. I know that is their job - to make money - but at the customer's expense? That is just not right.

Rob


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

robpickles said:


> The main problem here is getting DirecTv to acknowledge that the problem exists. If they would listen to their customers complaints and acknowledge them instead of ignoring us, then their customers would be less likely to be so aggrivated if it ever happens again.


Yes. This is a problem that has gone on for several years; my personal opinion is that there has been a degree of complacency that set in some time ago. I am hoping that under the new ownership, a new attitude be embraced and that it will eventually propagate all the way out to the front lines of the call center.



> Whether there is some hidden agenda behind the software update problems or not, we will never know, but they are only thinking about how to avoid the problems instead of addressing them. Their solution is to offer their own R15 unit which is inferior to any Tivo unit - which has to be leased by us and connected to a 2 year agreement.


I doubt its a hidden agenda, as those are difficult to sustain (all it takes is one disgruntled x-employee to unravel the whole conspiracy). But it is known that there has been a longtime agenda to transition away from the TiVo boxes and into the NDS boxes. I think the sentiment on that may be changing, but even though there have been some recent announcements between TiVo and DirecTV, I don't expect that is really affecting much on a day-to-day basis.



> If it is the software causing the problems that makes them responsible - and that will cost them something (money, hard drives, new equipment, compensation, etc.). So instead of taking care of their customers and the problems, they are trying to profit from it. I know that is their job - to make money - but at the customer's expense? That is just not right.


Sort of a touchy situation there. But I pretty much agree. I just have a hard time reconciling the notion that if it is a hardware problem that is triggered by software (for example, what if it IS a bad hard drive, is it still DirecTV's fault? What if its a bad power supply that now doesn't work with the new software, but worked, in spite of it being bad, with the older software? -- there is no clear answer to me...)

What isn't right is for them to capitalize on the situation, and I think that there is a sentiment among a lot of the die hard TiVo folks that DirecTV doesn't care, and this is just an example of it. I have to be careful what I say (dare I bite the hands that feed me), but I certainly understand the skepticism, and as a customer of DirecTV for over 10 years, I can certainly see that things have changed over time.

My only hope right now is that under the new ownership, and with the fact that the cable companies have really gotten their acts together over the past few years, that things shift. I am optimistic, but that is my default stance; its not like I have any additional information or inside knowledge.


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## Jumi (Sep 27, 2003)

Random reboot yesterday. Black screen freezeup today. I've reported these before but it has been stable for a week or more. SDVR80 with new 140 hr drive. UPS.


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