# Setting up a MoCA Network for Tivo



## BigJimOutlaw

With the release of the Tivo Mini, Roamio, and BOLT boxes, a lot of people are considering using a MoCA connection rather than ethernet or wireless to communicate between Tivo devices.

Because a lot of people are new to MoCA, hopefully this quick and dirty setup information will help answer most of your questions. This isn't a complete A-to-Z MoCA FAQ; it just answers the most common setup questions that have come up on this forum.

This guide answers:

- What is MoCA?
- Why use MoCA?
- How to create a MoCA Network
- How to connect your Tivo devices to a MoCA Network
- Special issues (Tuning Adapters, FiOS customers)
- Troubleshooting most common issues

*FiOS TV customers:* Skip to near the end if you have setup questions.

*What is MoCA?*

Simply put, MoCA is ethernet over coax cable. It's a networking technology that allows you to transmit data over the coax cable in your home. It's an alternative to ethernet, wireless, and powerline adapters.​
*Why use MoCA?*

Because most homes don't have ethernet cable running everywhere, people use wireless adapters in their home. But as we know, wireless adapters are slower and less reliable than a wired connection.

Unless you have a very robust wireless network, streaming video wirelessly between Tivo devices may be choppy or not work at all. Because of this, Tivo recommends using a wired connection. MoCA is a good option because it uses the coax cable already running through your home.

If you have only 1 Tivo device, you may not need MoCA. This guide is mainly intended to help people with 2 or more Tivo devices stream content between them, such as a Tivo DVR to a Tivo Mini.​
*Enabling MoCA in the Home*

There are three ways to create a MoCA network:

Option 1: Connect MoCA-enabled Tivos by ethernet and use the Tivo to establish the MoCA network.
Option 2: Connect a MoCA adapter to your router. (Choose this option if running ethernet to your Tivo is not desirable.)
Option 3: Use a retail cable modem that has MoCA built-in.

*Option 1: Connect Tivo via Ethernet*
Platforms Supported: Bolt, Roamio Pro, Roamio Plus, Premiere XL4 (Elite), Premiere 4

This option allows the Tivo itself to create the MoCA network for the rest of the home.

1. Connect your Tivo (one of the platforms listed above) to your router via Ethernet.
2. Go in the Network Settings, select 'Change Network Settings' and select 'Use this DVR to create a MoCA Network.'

That's it! Your MoCA network is created!

3. Go into the Network Settings of your other MoCA-enabled Tivos and select "MoCA" as their network connection type.​
_(Note: Using this method, your Mini(s) and other secondary MoCA devices are relying on your Tivo DVR for their internet connection, so if your Tivo DVR is offline for some reason, so are the secondary devices.)_

If you have a Tivo that does not support MoCA, check the "Setting up a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio for MoCA" section below if you would like to get them connected to MoCA too.

*Option 2: Use a MoCA Adapter*
Platforms Supported: Mini, Bolt, Roamio Pro, Roamio Plus, Premiere XL4 (Elite), Premiere 4

If running an ethernet cable to your Tivo is not desirable or possible, this option is the better choice.

1. Purchase a MoCA adapter ($50 from tivo.com, also available on Amazon, eBay, etc.).
2. Connect it to your modem and router as shown below.










That's it! Once the above diagram is completed, this will enable MoCA throughout the home.

3. Choose "MoCA" in the Network Settings on each Tivo box.​
If you have a Tivo that does not support MoCA, check the "Setting up a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio for MoCA" section below if you would like to get them connected to MoCA too.

*Option 3: Use a Cable Modem with MoCA Built-In*
Platforms Supported: Mini, Bolt, Roamio Pro, Roamio Plus, Premiere XL4 (Elite), Premiere 4

Some cable modems, such as the the Arris (Motorola) SBG6782, have MoCA built-in. If your modem with MoCA was purchased at retail, you can use it to create the MoCA network. (If the modem was provided by your cable company, chances are you won't be able to use it and this option isn't available to you.)

1. Check your modem's settings to make sure MoCA is enabled. If it's not, enable it.
2. Choose "MoCA" in the Network Settings on each Tivo box.​
If you have a Tivo that does not support MoCA, check the "Setting up a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio for MoCA" section below if you would like to get them connected to MoCA too.

____________________________​
*Setting up a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio for MoCA:*

Platforms Supported: All Tivos with an ethernet port but not MoCA support (namely, 2-tuner Tivos and the 4-tuner basic Roamio.)

2-tuner Tivos and the basic 4-tuner Tivo Roamio do not natively support MoCA. However, you can still connect them to a MoCA network if you wish.

1. Follow one of the above options to create the MoCA network.
2. Purchase an additional MoCA adapter for each non-MoCA Tivo you wish to connect to the MoCA network.
3. Connect them in this fashion:








Note: The Tivo Mini will stream programs from 2-tuner Tivos, but a 4-tuner (or more) Tivo is still necessary for a Mini to be setup properly.

*FiOS TV Customers:*

Your home is already MoCA-enabled if your Verizon-supplied router is connected via coax. Your Bolt/P4/XL4/Roamio Plus/Roamio Pro and Mini can simply be connected to the coax, select "MoCA" under their Network Settings, and that's all that needs to be done. No ethernet connection is recommended.

If you would like to connect a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio to your MoCA network, follow the previous section's instructions on how to connect MoCA adapters to these Tivos.

If you are a FiOS TV customer using your own router or using the Verizon router's ethernet connection, you will need to choose one of the above 2 options to create a MoCA network.​
*POE FILTER:*

It is recommended that you install a MoCA Point of Entry (POE) filter at your cable TV's point of entry in the home. This helps keep your MoCA signal strong, prevents it from exiting your home and potentially allowing neighbors access to your network, or creating interference with neighbor's services. They're $9 on Tivo.com and can also be purchased cheaply elsewhere (eBay, etc).

If you are a FiOS TV customer, a POE filter is not needed.​
*Tuning Adapters:*

If your Tivo setup requires a Tuning Adapter supplied by the cableco, the below image shows the recommended setup to allow the tuning adapter and MoCA network to co-exist.

From the Splitter:
- 1 line goes to the Tuning Adapter, then connect the TA to the Tivo's USB port. Don't use the TA's RF-Out.
- The other line goes to the Tivo if it has built-in moca support, or to the MoCA adapter if your Tivo model needs one.










*Most Common Problems:*

The most common problems associated with MoCA are old or inadequate splitters, loss of internet connectivity, signal amplifiers (amps) somewhere on the line, and aged coax cabling.

At the very least, make sure all of the coax connection points are firm.

*Splitters:* In the event of signal issues (such as bad performance or devices not seeing each other), old or inadequate splitters are a common culprit. Replace any old or inadequate splitters (rated less than 1000 MHz) with new splitters that are rated for 1000 MHz (1GHz) or higher. Some high-frequency (3-4 GHz) splitters originally intended for satellite can also cause moca signal problems. Those should be replaced as well.

*Amps:* Signal amps should be placed at the coax cable's point of entry in the house. However, sometimes they are not. Ideally the amp should be moved. But if that is too complicated, the old amp should be replaced with a moca-compatible amp.

*Old coax:* Very old and weathered/damaged coax cable and loose connection points might be to blame as well. These coax lines would have to be replaced with new coax.

*Loss of internet connectivity:* If you lose your internet connectivity when activating MoCA, install a MoCA POE filter on the back of the cable modem ($8 on ebay).

*SDV Tuning Adapter malfunctions:* If your SDV Tuning Adapter isn't working correctly while having a MoCA network, install a MoCA POE filter on the back of the Tuning Adapter ($8 on ebay).

*NIM100 MoCA adapters:* Old NIM100 MoCA adapters have been known to be incompatible with the built-in MoCA support of Tivo boxes. The "work-around" is to either not use the Tivo's integrated MoCA (use adapters instead) or replace the old NIM100's with newer adapters.​
*Pro Tip:*

Using MoCA setup option #2? Connect your Smart TV, Blu-ray player, Roku, or other device to the Tivo DVR's Ethernet port! Those devices can daisy chain off your Tivo's MoCA connection. _(If you want to connect multiple devices, you can get a cheap Ethernet hub and plug it into the Tivo's port too.)_

If there are ideas or things missed in the guide (but remember it's not a complete and total MoCA FAQ, just a setup guide) then post them here. I'll add them!


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## Dan203

MoCa is a pretty simple setup. On the Mini it should be pretty much plug and play. For the Premiere 4/XL4 you have a few options....

If your router supports MoCa then you can just enable MoCa and both the Premiere and the Mini will talk directly to the router.

If your router does not support MoCa then you can either buy a MoCa bridge and install it near your router, which will allow both the Premiere and the Mini talk to the router. Or you can connect the Premiere to the router via Ethernet or Wifi and then enable MoCa bridging on the Premiere. For this scenario the Mini and Premiere will still talk to one another over MoCa, but all internet traffic will travel through the Premiere and to the router via the Ethernet or WiFi connection. This should still be a supported setup, even with WiFi, because only the internet traffic will be traveling over the WiFi connection. The actual streaming and UI portion of the Mini will be talking to the Premiere via MoCa.

One other thing to remember about MoCa is that it's always best to install a POE filter wherever the coax enters your house. This prevents the MoCa signal from leaking over to your neighbors and interfering with their signal or exposing your network to a potential security threat.


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## jfh3

Very nicely done BigJim.


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## jfh3

Dan203 said:


> One other thing to remember about MoCa is that it's always best to install a POE filter wherever the coax enters your house. This prevents the MoCa signal from leaking over to your neighbors and interfering with their signal or exposing your network to a potential security threat.


I haven't set up MoCA yet, but might with the Mini. I have two separate cable entry points.

1) One goes to a distribution panel that feeds the coax network that the Minis will be on. An Elite will be the bridge to the LAN.

2) The other entry point goes to two Tivos that are hard wired to the LAN.

I know I need to put a filter on entry #1. Do I need one for entry #2?


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## Loach

When I did my MoCA install, I found the above image from TiVo to be a little confusing in that it sort of implies that you need the MoCA adapter connected to your cable modem via coax. You don't. You just need to connect it to the cable plant and ethernet somewhere - it does not *need* to be connected to your cable modem.

I think they show it this way just because it's probably a common installation. Many people don't have ethernet ports available anywhere but their router, which is of course connected to their cable modem in the same room if they're using the cable company as their ISP. So they show the MoCA adapter being connected to the cable plant using the cable jack in that room. But of course the cable modem needs a connection to the cable plant too, so they use the coax out jack on the MoCA adapter to feed it coax.

I installed my MoCA adapter in a basement utility room far from my cable modem. In that room is my cable drop (with splitters galore) along with a 5-port ethernet switch that's connected to my home network. So I replaced a 3-way splitter down there with a 4-way and connected my MoCA adapter to it. I connected to Ethernet via the switch and everything worked like a charm.


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## Loach

BigJimOutlaw said:


> *Tuning Adapters:*
> 
> This is the recommended setup method to getting a MoCA network working for those that have a cableco-supplied Tuning Adapter. A splitter is needed for the MoCA signal to bypass the Tuning Adapter.


Great info on the tuning adapter. I just got a letter last week informing me that Cox is implementing SDV in my area and I will need a tuning adapter to retain all my channels. So I take it from the diagram that tuning adapters won't pass a MoCA signal? Guess I'll be picking up another splitter.


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## Loach

jfh3 said:


> I haven't set up MoCA yet, but might with the Mini. I have two separate cable entry points.
> 
> 1) One goes to a distribution panel that feeds the coax network that the Minis will be on. An Elite will be the bridge to the LAN.
> 
> 2) The other entry point goes to two Tivos that are hard wired to the LAN.
> 
> I know I need to put a filter on entry #1. Do I need one for entry #2?


But isn't there really a single point of entry somewhere further up the chain where those 2 cable entry points are split? Maybe in a box somewhere outside of your residence? I would think that would be where you want to install the POE filter.


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## jfh3

Loach said:


> But isn't there really a single point of entry somewhere further up the chain where those 2 cable entry points are split? Maybe in a box somewhere outside of your residence? I would think that would be where you want to install the POE filter.


There is. But it is in a locked box owned by Comcast I can't get to.


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## Dan203

Loach said:


> Great info on the tuning adapter. I just got a letter last week informing me that Cox is implementing SDV in my area and I will need a tuning adapter to retain all my channels. So I take it from the diagram that tuning adapters won't pass a MoCA signal? Guess I'll be picking up another splitter.


The pasthrough port on most TA is terrible and degrades the signal to the point where the TiVo has trouble tuning some channels let alone talking to MoCa. It's best to use a splitter like this for a TA even if you're not using MoCa.


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## Dan203

jfh3 said:


> There is. But it is in a locked box owned by Comcast I can't get to.


If you call them they'll probably come install one for you in that box. They don't want your MoCa signal interfering with your neighbors either.


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## Loach

Dan203 said:


> The pasthrough port on most TA is terrible and degrades the signal to the point where the TiVo has trouble tuning some channels let alone talking to MoCa. It's best to use a splitter like this for a TA even if you're not using MoCa.


Good to know - will definitely use a splitter. I've been dreading SDV after reading some of the tuning adapter travails on this forum.


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## compnurd

Ok Help me understand something here...

I currently have 3 regular Premieres... and 4 Moca Adaptors

1 Premiere is HW to the router, two have Moca Adaptors. One Moca adaptor is being used for a computer and 1 it plugged into the main router to "enable MOCA"...

So If i pick up a Premiere 4 and replace it with the one main Premiere that is HW to the router, i could enable the Moca Bridge and get rid of the one adaptor connected directly to the router?


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## DaveDFW

compnurd said:


> So If i pick up a Premiere 4 and replace it with the one main Premiere that is HW to the router, i could enable the Moca Bridge and get rid of the one adaptor connected directly to the router?


Yes, both the Premiere 4 and XL4 can function as MoCA-to-ethernet bridges. The only caveat is that the bridge only operates when the Tivo is up, so while the Tivo bridge device is rebooting there will be no bridge between MoCA and ethernet.


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## Loach

DaveDFW said:


> Yes, both the Premiere 4 and XL4 can function as MoCA-to-ethernet bridges. The only caveat is that the bridge only operates when the Tivo is up, so while the Tivo bridge device is rebooting there will be no bridge between MoCA and ethernet.


He could always just replace one of his other Premieres with the P4 and still get rid of a MoCA adapter at that location - keeping the standalone MoCA adapter at his router as the bridge.


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## compnurd

Loach said:


> He could always just replace one of his other Premieres with the P4 and still get rid of a MoCA adapter at that location - keeping the standalone MoCA adapter at his router as the bridge.


True,

But if i can get rid of the adaptor at the router that would be better since it is split with the cable modem.

That is my LR Premiere so it is very rarely offline so the bridge being down is not an issue...

That P4 for 189 on Tivo.com is a great deal...


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## kacote

But I have a cable box for on demand which I access from another HDMI connection and an Tuning adapter box to get premium channels. I have a moca connection for Tivo stream that needs to connect to the cable as well.
Any idea how to set up all of this?
Thank you!
K


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## atmuscarella

kacote said:


> But I have a cable box for on demand which I access from another HDMI connection and an Tuning adapter box to get premium channels. I have a moca connection for Tivo stream that needs to connect to the cable as well.
> Any idea how to set up all of this?
> Thank you!
> K


Is your setup on one TV? Do you have Ethernet to that location?

Why are you using Moca for the Stream? I would put the Stream next to your router and connect it with Ethernet.


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## leiff

I have xl4 and waiting to buy mini. I plan on buying a moca adapter since Ethernet to my xl4 is not convenient. I just moved into my new house. I plan on using bridge out of xl4 to connect my popbox media player to my network in order to stream my 1080p bluray remux's from my pc in the other room. I assume moca bridge from my xl4 bandwidth is capable of this. Cable guy wired all 4 of my rooms. He didn't know about moca or about Poe filters when i asked him about it. Mistakenly I failed to ask where I should place filter. 
I live in a densely housed neighborhood but i don't think I'm worried about security. Should I be? Just as importantly- is working without a Poe filter disrupting my neighbors services? If so then as a good neighbor that's reason enough to buy one. Regarding Poe instal- should I call the installer and ask him if he remembers where it should go since he just wired my house 3 days ago. He was quite high in the trees on a telephone pole at one time. I don't have a ladder that high. Should I inspect the exterior of my house? What am I looking for? I know installer was under my house at one point. can I try without Poe filter? As I understand moca, it either works %100 or not at all. Is this right? Or would working without Poe result in choppy movie playback when bridging my popbox from my xl4 or show other signs of network reliability/performance issues?


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## Loach

leiff said:


> I have xl4 and waiting to buy mini. I plan on buying a moca adapter since Ethernet to my xl4 is not convenient. I just moved into my new house. I plan on using bridge out of xl4 to connect my popbox media player to my network in order to stream my 1080p bluray remux's from my pc in the other room. I assume moca bridge from my xl4 bandwidth is capable of this. Cable guy wired all 4 of my rooms. He didn't know about moca or about Poe filters when i asked him about it. Mistakenly I failed to ask where I should place filter.
> I live in a densely housed neighborhood but i don't think I'm worried about security. Should I be? Just as importantly- is working without a Poe filter disrupting my neighbors services? If so then as a good neighbor that's reason enough to buy one. Regarding Poe instal- should I call the installer and ask him if he remembers where it should go since he just wired my house 3 days ago. He was quite high in the trees on a telephone pole at one time. I don't have a ladder that high. Should I inspect the exterior of my house? What am I looking for? I know installer was under my house at one point. can I try without Poe filter? As I understand moca, it either works %100 or not at all. Is this right? Or would working without Poe result in choppy movie playback when bridging my popbox from my xl4 or show other signs of network reliability/performance issues?


I would think your installer brought one cable to your house, then split off to the 4 rooms from there. The splitter may be inside your house or in a box outside, but it's probably not up in the trees. The input to that splitter is where you'd want to install your POE filter. And yes, you want one not just for security but to prevent signal leakage that could cause problems for your neighbors. It also supposedly improves MoCA network performance.


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## BigJimOutlaw

Loach beat me to it. 

The POE filter should be installed on the input side of the splitter coming into you house.

coax to the home ---> POE filter > splitter.

Exactly where the splitter is, you can investigate by following where the coax enters your home from the utility pole, or following where all the coax in the rooms leads to. It's possibly under your house if you're willing to get dirty. Not convenient, but it can interfere with neighbors without it.


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## UCLABB

Regarding the video outputs from the mini. The schematic shows a SINGLE out for component video. Is there some sort of mini plug that carries all three components? I've been unable to find such a cable. (I asked this question on the "mini lives" thread but it is buried)

I ask this because initially I will be hooking up the mini to a tv that does not have HDMI inputs.


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## jfh3

UCLABB said:


> Regarding the video outputs from the mini. The schematic shows a SINGLE out for component video. Is there some sort of mini plug that carries all three components?


Yes, there is a cable with a 3.5mm male plug on one end and a three tail split with female RGB plugs on the other end. Many newer TVs come with these now, especially the slimmer models.

I haven't looked, but suspect you can find these at Monoprice.com or similar places. I would also suspect that TiVo might sell this as an accessory once the Mini is released.


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## Kingpcgeek

My setup has the cable from the street going to a splitter. One leg goes directly to the cable modem. Second leg goes to cable company installed amplifier/splitter. I have heard that MoCA signals will not pass through most amplifiers, so I haven't bothered to install a MoCA adapter at my router. Instead I am using my Elite to bridge a MoCA connection to my Premiere 4. I am wondering if I still need to install a POE filter since I have the amplifier in place that technically is not supposed to pass MoCA signals?


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## Loach

I found this document helpful in getting familiar with MoCA as well:

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/video/at_home/Cable_Accessories/4031235_B.pdf


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## tvn

Loach said:


> I found this document helpful in getting familiar with MoCA as well:
> 
> http://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/video/at_home/Cable_Accessories/4031235_B.pdf


That document is insightful but way over my head. I am feeding two Tivo's on the lower level and sending a signal up to a splitter to supply the bedrooms with MOCA. Has anyone found a multi-port splitter that will send MOCA to multiple rooms, and pass good video signal strength? I'm already using one splitter on the main level for MOCA. My two Minis should be here on Wednesday or Thursday from BB.


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## jjd_87

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Loach beat me to it.
> 
> The POE filter should be installed on the input side of the splitter coming into you house.
> 
> coax to the home ---> POE filter > splitter.
> 
> Exactly where the splitter is, you can investigate by following where the coax enters your home from the utility pole, or following where all the coax in the rooms leads to. It's possibly under your house if you're willing to get dirty. Not convenient, but it can interfere with neighbors without it.


So the POE filter can attach directly to the input on the splitter?

I think thats what I'm reading but I just wanna make sure. Ordered my Mini and POE filter today from TiVo.


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## Loach

tvn said:


> That document is insightful but way over my head. I am feeding two Tivo's on the lower level and sending a signal up to a splitter to supply the bedrooms with MOCA. Has anyone found a multi-port splitter that will send MOCA to multiple rooms, and pass good video signal strength? I'm already using one splitter on the main level for MOCA. My two Minis should be here on Wednesday or Thursday from BB.


I think most splitters will pass MoCA signals without problems. I'm using 5-2400 Mhz splitters but it's not necessary. You might run into problems if you have too many layers of splitters though.


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## Loach

jjd_87 said:


> So the POE filter can attach directly to the input on the splitter?
> 
> I think thats what I'm reading but I just wanna make sure. Ordered my Mini and POE filter today from TiVo.


Yes


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## tvn

Loach said:


> I think most splitters will pass MoCA signals without problems. I'm using 5-2400 Mhz splitters but it's not necessary. You might run into problems if you have too many layers of splitters though.


I have a high band splitter sending the signal to two Premieres downstairs and one feed to the attic, with no issues. From the attic, I would like to feed a premiere and more than two Minis, so I tried to use a 1x4 high band, it wouldn't work. It passed the MOCA but signal on Premiere #3 cablecard was zero. When I switched to a 1X2 1000mhz it worked. Again, albeit only for two rooms. I will try to find a 1x3 1000mhz to see if that will work.

Incoming feed>5-2400mhz splitter (1x2)>Premiere 1 & 5-2400 splitter (1X2)>Premiere 2 & attic>1000mhz splitter (1x2)>Living Room and 1 bedroom. Would like to change to 1X3 splitter to feed two bedrooms.

Any insight would be appreciated. I'll keep expreimenting with different splitters in the attic.


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## lessd

Loach said:


> I think most splitters will pass MoCA signals without problems. I'm using 5-2400 Mhz splitters but it's not necessary. You might run into problems if you have too many layers of splitters though.


I having no problem going through two 4 way splitters to my amp.

Setup: 8 way output two way amp (Viewsonics VSMA608C-10R 8-Port), one of the outputs get the Moca directly from a TP-4 another amp output goes through 2, 4 way splitters and the Moca gets to a TP-4 at the end of the 2nd 4 way splitter. There is about 75 feet of RG6 on each run.


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## Loach

tvn said:


> I have a high band splitter sending the signal to two Premieres downstairs and one feed to the attic, with no issues. From the attic, I would like to feed a premiere and more than two Minis, so I tried to use a 1x4 high band, it wouldn't work. It passed the MOCA but signal on Premiere #3 cablecard was zero. When I switched to a 1X2 1000mhz it worked. Again, albeit only for two rooms. I will try to find a 1x3 1000mhz to see if that will work.
> 
> Incoming feed>5-2400mhz splitter (1x2)>Premiere 1 & 5-2400 splitter (1X2)>Premiere 2 & attic>1000mhz splitter (1x2)>Living Room and 1 bedroom. Would like to change to 1X3 splitter to feed two bedrooms.
> 
> Any insight would be appreciated. I'll keep expreimenting with different splitters in the attic.


If I'm reading and understanding this right it sounds to me like this is a signal strength issue unrelated to MoCA or frequency bands.


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## Loach

lessd said:


> I having no problem going through two 4 way splitters to my amp.
> 
> Setup: 8 way output two way amp (Viewsonics VSMA608C-10R 8-Port), one of the outputs get the Moca directly from a TP-4 another amp output goes through 2, 4 way splitters and the Moca gets to a TP-4 at the end of the 2nd 4 way splitter. There is about 75 feet of RG6 on each run.


The MoCA Alliance recommends recommends having only a single layer of splitters beyond the root splitter. In your scenario the root splitter is your 8 port amp. Can't tell by the way you've described it if your 4-way splitters are on the same layer or cascaded with one branching off of the other?

In any event, it's academic. If it works, it works. Just because it's not MoCA-recommended doesn't mean it won't work.


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## lessd

Loach said:


> The MoCA Alliance recommends recommends having only a single layer of splitters beyond the root splitter. In your scenario the root splitter is your 8 port amp. Can't tell by the way you've described it if your 4-way splitters are on the same layer or cascaded with one branching off of the other?
> 
> In any event, it's academic. If it works, it works. Just because it's not MoCA-recommended doesn't mean it won't work.


The 4 way splitters are cascaded, it is for the cellar and used a test center so I did not know if it would work, did not care as I had a RJ45 in the same place, just for fun I did try it, and Moca did work, so I am going past a 8 way splitter in the amp than 2 more 4 way splitters (good grade ones to 1000Mhz) and it worked, but I only had about 150 feet of RJ6 cable, don't know if the cable got to over 300 feet if I would have had any problems.


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## johnmsch

Dan203 said:


> Or you can connect the Premiere to the router via Ethernet or Wifi and then enable MoCa bridging on the Premiere. For this scenario the Mini and Premiere will still talk to one another over MoCa, but all internet traffic will travel through the Premiere and to the router via the Ethernet or WiFi connection. This should still be a supported setup, even with WiFi, because only the internet traffic will be traveling over the WiFi connection. The actual streaming and UI portion of the Mini will be talking to the Premiere via MoCa.


Ordered my Mini from TiVo this morning. I've been reading everything I can find about setting it up since then. I believe the quote above answers my question, but want to be sure.

My home network is Ethernet, and I have a DSL internet connection. The XL4 is hardwired to the network. When I setup the Mini, I plan to use MoCA between it and the XL4. So, based on the quote above, will the Mini be able to get to the internet via the XL4?


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## Dan203

Yes. You just need to enable MoCa bridging in the XL4's network configuration menu and the mini will be able to talk to the internet through the XL4's Ethernet connection.


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## johnmsch

Sweet! Thanks Dan. I'll post back here once I've set it up and can confirm it works.


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## southerndoc

I posted this in another thread, but thought it would be more appropriate here.

Has anyone looked at their network status of their Mini to see the MoCA speeds?

My Mini's MoCA status had transmit and receive rates of 240 and 245 Mbps. Is that actually how fast it's working? I thought MoCA 1.1 was limited to around 170 Mbps?


----------



## lessd

geekmedic said:


> I posted this in another thread, but thought it would be more appropriate here.
> 
> Has anyone looked at their network status of their Mini to see the MoCA speeds?
> 
> My Mini's MoCA status had transmit and receive rates of 240 and 245 Mbps. Is that actually how fast it's working? I thought MoCA 1.1 was limited to around 170 Mbps?


And where did you look to see the speed, is that only on the Mini itself as I never seen it on the TP-4 with Moca enabled.


----------



## southerndoc

Settings -> Network -> Network Status


----------



## tvn

Loach said:


> If I'm reading and understanding this right it sounds to me like this is a signal strength issue unrelated to MoCA or frequency bands.


You are 100% correct. MOCA is working everywhere but upstairs bedrooms have poor signal strength. Odd that WGN Superstation and a few others like CNN HD, HBO, and Showtime come in perfectly, but others are Searching For Signal. Even locals won't come in. Do we know of an amplifier that won't upset MOCA? I don't want to call Comcast since they'll start interpreting my multi room setup and add extra outlets to my multiple Tivos.


----------



## lessd

geekmedic said:


> Settings -> Network -> Network Status


*On which unit, the Mini or the TP-4*, I know how to get to network status but I don't have a Mini yet, but I am using Moca and have two TP-4s and two TP with external Moca adapters.


----------



## southerndoc

lessd said:


> *On which unit, the Mini or the TP-4*, I know how to get to network status but I don't have a Mini yet, but I am using Moca and have two TP-4s and two TP with external Moca adapters.


On the Mini.


----------



## lessd

geekmedic said:


> On the Mini.


Thanks, I will have to wait until I get my Mini.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

MoCA 1.1 has a max PHY rate of 270, though the actual data rate is lower. But a strong phy rate means a strong data rate.

General rule of thumb in case of any future troubleshooting... A moca 1.1 PHY rate over 200 is solid. Under 200 can mean there's a weak or damaged connection somewhere, but it still may work if it's not too bad. (I stress I'm not referring to data transfer rates. Those will be lower.)


----------



## Dan203

Hmmm... according to my Elite the PHY rate between it and my MoCa bridge is 190 ish. Guess my signal is not as strong as it could be.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> Hmmm... according to my Elite the PHY rate between it and my MoCa bridge is 190 ish. Guess my signal is not as strong as it could be.


Could be a bit stronger, yes. Naturally as long as packet errors are low and you're not having any real-world problems (buffering, video errors, etc.) then that's what will count with Tivo devices.


----------



## jfh3

Is there any reason I can't/shouldn't install a MoCA adapter inline between the cable entry point and a whole house splitter (which has a separate leg for the modem), rather than put the adapter between the coax jack on the wall and the Mini?

This would assume I'm using a MoCA enabled Elite that also has an Ethernet connection to a switch or router.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

jfh3 said:


> Is there any reason I can't/shouldn't install a MoCA adapter inline between the cable entry point and a whole house splitter (which has a separate leg for the modem), rather than put the adapter between the coax jack on the wall and the Mini?
> 
> This would assume I'm using a MoCA enabled Elite that also has an Ethernet connection to a switch or router.


Not sure I follow that setup, but if the Elite is using an ethernet connection, you wouldn't need a moca adapter. If the Elite's coax can reach the Mini's coax, the Elite's ethernet connection is the only connection necessary. (Option #1 in the OP.)


----------



## Loach

tvn said:


> You are 100% correct. MOCA is working everywhere but upstairs bedrooms have poor signal strength. Odd that WGN Superstation and a few others like CNN HD, HBO, and Showtime come in perfectly, but others are Searching For Signal. Even locals won't come in. Do we know of an amplifier that won't upset MOCA? I don't want to call Comcast since they'll start interpreting my multi room setup and add extra outlets to my multiple Tivos.


As long as your MoCA network is all on the output side of the amplifier I don't think it would matter what type of amplifier you use. Now, if you're using an amp on one part of your network but not another, such that you need the MoCA signal to pass through the amp, I think there are certain bi-directional amps that would work for that, but I don't have any personal experience with any of them.

I have an 8+ year old amp and my MoCA network is all on the output side of it and works fine. The MoCA signals will pass from port to port through the splitter part of the amp, but probably not back upstream through the input side of the amp.


----------



## Gromit

My minis will be delivered later today but I wanted to go ahead and enable MoCA on my XL4. In the network status menu, it's showing that MoCA is down. Is this normal with just the XL4 active in my home?

Here's my setup -

Cable modem in office, connected to an Airport Extreme router.
In the living room, I have another Airport Extreme serving as a wireless bridge. The XL4 is connected to this router. It can connect to the internet.
Coax is connected to the XL4 for the Comcast signal.

The plan is to use a mini in the bedroom, using MoCA.

I realize that the wireless part might be an issue for the mini. It's an N network, but I may have to go pure MoCA to get good performance.

But shouldn't my XL4 show MoCA as active?

Edit: Or is the top part of the network status page, the "Ethernet/MoCA (Bridged)" part, the only thing I should be worried about? It's the "MoCA Details" part that is showing down.

Sorry, maybe I should wait until the mini gets here before I worry about this.


----------



## Loach

Gromit said:


> My minis will be delivered later today but I wanted to go ahead and enable MoCA on my XL4. In the network status menu, it's showing that MoCA is down. Is this normal with just the XL4 active in my home?
> 
> Here's my setup -
> 
> Cable modem in office, connected to an Airport Extreme router.
> In the living room, I have another Airport Extreme serving as a wireless bridge. The XL4 is connected to this router. It can connect to the internet.
> Coax is connected to the XL4 for the Comcast signal.
> 
> The plan is to use a mini in the bedroom, using MoCA.
> 
> I realize that the wireless part might be an issue for the mini. It's an N network, but I may have to go pure MoCA to get good performance.
> 
> But shouldn't my XL4 show MoCA as active?


It's probably not going to show as active if there is no other device on your network connected via MoCA. Check back after you connect your Mini.


----------



## compnurd

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Could be a bit stronger, yes. Naturally as long as packet errors are low and you're not having any real-world problems (buffering, video errors, etc.) then that's what will count with Tivo devices.


240 over here


----------



## rmpearl

So tried to set up my Mini last night and ran into some trouble with setting it up via MoCA. The Mini didn't recogonize the MoCA network at all. I tried a couple basic troubleshooting steps (checking the connections, resetting the MoCA adapter, power cycling the router and cable modem) but still wasn't able to figure it out. 

I am hoping someone will be able to lend me their expertise. Current Setup:
- Actiontec MoCA Adapter (From Tivo)
- Tivo XL4
- Tivo Stream
- Tivo Mini (in a bedroom nowhere near the router)

Cable comes from wall and feeds into the MoCA Adapter. The MoCA Adapter then feeds into a 3 way splitter. One coax goes into a cable modem, one goes into a Cisco TA, and the last one goes into the XL4. Before I introduced the Mini everything was working great. The XL4 was receving internet thru coax and supplied the connection to the Stream thru the ethernet port. Based on the OP I may have set this up incorrectly or I should be using the XL4 to bridge the connection for the Mini instead of the Stream. 

The other thing that I noticed after checking out Tivo's support pages and this forum is that my PHY is really low (in the 70s and 80s) where it needs to be high 100s. If I change the set up to use the XL4 as a bridge to the mini (as described in the OP) will this effect my PHY.

I ended up using the Tivo Wireless N adapter to set up the Mini. By the time it was thru guided setup I just changed a couple channels to verify that it would work but didn't play around with it much last night. From what I did see the picture seemed to be very good quality. I can use the Wireless adapter as an interim solution until I get the MoCA figured out.

Any help that can be provided is greatly appreciated.


----------



## compnurd

At what point does the Moca Adaptor plug into the Router? Can the Xl4 be ethernet wired into the router?


----------



## rmpearl

There is an ethernet cable that runs from the Actiontec adapter to the router to provide the internet connection.


----------



## Dan203

rmpearl said:


> So tried to set up my Mini last night and ran into some trouble with setting it up via MoCA. The Mini didn't recogonize the MoCA network at all. I tried a couple basic troubleshooting steps (checking the connections, resetting the MoCA adapter, power cycling the router and cable modem) but still wasn't able to figure it out. .


Do you even need the MoCa adapter? Is the XL4 in the same room as your router? If so then you just need to connect the XL4 to the router using Ethernet, then go into the TiVo Network setup and enable the MoCa+Ethernet option, and then connect the Mini to the coax.

Now if your XL4 is not in the same room as your router then you have it hooked up wrong. What you want to do is connect the MoCa adapter to a coax somewhere near your router. Then connect the Ethernet port on the MoCa adapter to one of the LAN ports on your router. Now go to the TiVo and switch to MoCa+Ethernet configuration and for the Mini simply connect to coax and select MoCa.


----------



## rmpearl

I hooked it up this way because I was trying to use the XL4 as a bridge to the Stream. I think I am going to do what the OP suggested and run the ethernet to the XL4 and then switch the Tivo to MoCA+Ethernet and see if the Mini works then. I will run the stream to the router on a separate CAT6 cable. I will just have to drop my Xbox off the router and run it off of wireless. Will report back.


----------



## leiff

I have a setup question here:
I have a mini/ moca adapter on route from TiVo to be delivered this week. My xl4 is in my main tv room which also has my popbox movie player. Both these devices require wired speeds, so I plan on using moca for xl4 and Ethernet bridge out of xl4 for my popbox. My office room where my router is, is where I'll be placing mini. Since mini is right next to both coax/ Ethernet ports does it matter which I use for mini?


----------



## Dan203

rmpearl said:


> I hooked it up this way because I was trying to use the XL4 as a bridge to the Stream. I think I am going to do what the OP suggested and run the ethernet to the XL4 and then switch the Tivo to MoCA+Ethernet and see if the Mini works then. I will run the stream to the router on a separate CAT6 cable. I will just have to drop my Xbox off the router and run it off of wireless. Will report back.


You can buy a network switch for like $10 and get more ports. A network switch is basically like a Ethernet splitter. You connect one port on the switch to one port on your router and all the other ports on the switch can then talk to the router.

I have a TON of networked devices in my house using a mix of Ethernet, MoCa and powerline networking and they can all talk to each other. It's actually pretty simple once you wrap your head around how to wire it all together,


----------



## compnurd

Dan203 said:


> You can buy a network switch for like $10 and get more ports. A network switch is basically like a Ethernet splitter. You connect one port on the switch to one port on your router and all the other ports on the switch can then talk to the router.
> 
> I have a TON of networked devices in my house using a mix of Ethernet, MoCa and powerline networking and they can all talk to each other. It's actually pretty simple once you wrap your head around how to wire it all together,


Yeh I agree. Pick up a switch if you need more ports.. but i would get rid of that moca adaptor and use the XL4 as a bridge. I started doing that this week. Kicks ass


----------



## Dan203

I use my XL4 as a bridge for all of the devices in my entertainment center by connecting a switch to it's Ethernet port. I have 3 game systems, two additional TiVos, my Smart TV, my Ooma and a wifi access point connected to a switch, which then connects to the XL4s Ethernet port, which then bridges over MoCa to my office where I have a MoCa adapter connected to another switch which then connects to my router.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

leiff said:


> I have a setup question here:
> I have a mini/ moca adapter on route from TiVo to be delivered this week. My xl4 is in my main tv room which also has my popbox movie player. Both these devices require wired speeds, so I plan on using moca for xl4 and Ethernet bridge out of xl4 for my popbox. My office room where my router is, is where I'll be placing mini. Since mini is right next to both coax/ Ethernet ports does it matter which I use for mini?


If your Mini is right there next to a free ethernet port then you might as well use that if it's not needed for anything else.


----------



## rmpearl

Great! Thanks for the suggestions. Hopefully this brings up the PHY value.


----------



## rmpearl

rmpearl said:


> Great! Thanks for the suggestions. Hopefully this brings up the PHY value.


Took the Actiontec adapter out of the equation and everything work likes a charm now. Now to just hook the Stream straight back to the router and everything will be good to go. It would have been nice for the Mini to act as a Moca Bridge as well so you could use the Mini and Stream in conjunction with each other (just a thought). Now what to do with this now useless Actiontec adapter? Thanks again for the help.


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> The pasthrough port on most TA is terrible and degrades the signal to the point where the TiVo has trouble tuning some channels let alone talking to MoCa. It's best to use a splitter like this for a TA even if you're not using MoCa.


That sucks for those stuck on cable cos using SDV. That may require an extra amp higher up, as now each TV needs another -3.5dB split on it...

Luckily, if Comcast ever implements it, many systems will not need TA's for TiVo, only for MCE, since they already have support for it over software for XoD. Highly unlikely they would use that awful technology, however.



tvn said:


> You are 100% correct. MOCA is working everywhere but upstairs bedrooms have poor signal strength. Odd that WGN Superstation and a few others like CNN HD, HBO, and Showtime come in perfectly, but others are Searching For Signal. Even locals won't come in. Do we know of an amplifier that won't upset MOCA? I don't want to call Comcast since they'll start interpreting my multi room setup and add extra outlets to my multiple Tivos.


Anything good should work with MoCA, or you could put one amp on the whole system and then a POE filter and then splitters. However, my parents have an old RadioShack POS amp and it works fine with Comcast's version of MoCA on a DCX3400.


----------



## untfan

Here's the setup I used at my parents house with an amplifier and MoCA - it took a little time to figure out how to get it all working but it works. The TiVo connects to the internet through MoCA - will be adding a Mini or two in about a month (already have them!). 

I used Broadband Extreme 1 GHz rated splitters, and the amp is a Motorola BDA-S1 (I am going to switch it to a BDA-K1 when I install the Minis such that I can amplify the upstream as well, the S1 only amplifies the downstream, the K1 does upstream and downstream). The diplexers in use were Holland STVC.

The diplexers were used to separate the CATV signal from the MoCA signals, as the amp is only rated 5 - 1002 MHz and amplifies the CATV signals. The diplexer sends the higher frequency MoCA signals around the amplifier and then the second diplexer re-combines the signals onto a single cable.

I also would've put another MoCA filter between the MoCA Adapter and the Cable Modem, but the Cable Modem is a Motoroal SB6121 which has a built-in MoCA Filter.

Further, they are on Charter and use SDV. I used a 2-Way splitter at the TiVo with one leg going to the TA and the other to the TiVo. I also put a terminator on the TA's output.

If I recall correctly I was seeing about 230Mbps on the TiVo for the MoCA speeds - I don't recall what the signal strength of the CATV is, but the incoming service was +3dB and the modem was sitting at -4dB (its about 100 feet of cable away). The CATV run to the TiVo is approximately 150 feet (so a -6dB drop). I am guessing the signal level of the TiVo is about -5 to -10dB. I plan to hook-up a cable modem the next time I'm there w/ the Minis to get a value.

Feel free to ask me any questions on the setup.


----------



## Gadfly

I have wired Ethernet (1 Gbps) pretty much everywhere in my house.

Is there any reason/advantage to using MoCA instead of Ethernet for connecting XL4 to mini?


----------



## NotNowChief

Gadfly said:


> I have wired Ethernet (1 Gbps) pretty much everywhere in my house.
> 
> Is there any reason/advantage to using MoCA instead of Ethernet for connecting XL4 to mini?


No. 1GBPS Ethernet is probably faster.

MoCA is fine when you can't/don't want to run new lines everywhere in the house.


----------



## jmpage2

Gadfly said:


> I have wired Ethernet (1 Gbps) pretty much everywhere in my house.
> 
> Is there any reason/advantage to using MoCA instead of Ethernet for connecting XL4 to mini?


I have 1Gbps everywhere and still opted for MoCA for my new Minis. Using MoCA allowed me to retire ethernet switches at those locations that are no longer needed.... so I save a few extra watts by using MoCA although perhaps I lose that back on the TiVo XL4 as it might consume a few more watts when the MoCA bridge is in use.


----------



## jmpage2

I have a question related to security. I went ahead and set my two Minis up with MoCA and they are working well. I have not yet ordered or installed a POE filter for my coax network.

What are the security implications if I don't do this? Would any neighbor device on the same Comcast physical network be able to get an IP address from my host TiVo with the MoCA bridge?

At the point of entry into the home I have a ceramic fuse surge protector installed inline on the coax network as I'm always leery of coax power surges taking a lot of expensive gear out (and we get some serious lightning storms in Colorado). It will be a bit of a PITA for me to install a POE filter inline next to that surge unit.


----------



## HDRyder9

Looks like I'm going to have to use MOCA. My Mini won't connect to my Cisco gigabyte switch. It does connect to my 100baseT switch, though. Has anybody else had a similar issue?


----------



## Loach

jmpage2 said:


> At the point of entry into the home I have a ceramic fuse surge protector installed inline on the coax network as I'm always leery of coax power surges taking a lot of expensive gear out (and we get some serious lightning storms in Colorado). It will be a bit of a PITA for me to install a POE filter inline next to that surge unit.


Presumably you have a splitter at some point downstream from the surge unit that branches your coax off to the various rooms? Install the POE filter on the input side of that splitter.


----------



## aaronwt

Gadfly said:


> I have wired Ethernet (1 Gbps) pretty much everywhere in my house.
> 
> Is there any reason/advantage to using MoCA instead of Ethernet for connecting XL4 to mini?


I tried using MoCA for a while with my Elites, Premiere, and a few other devices. While transferring between a couple of TiVos it was fine. But when I had multiple transfers going concurrently, like to TiVo Desktop, the transfer speeds took a hit. So I went back to my gigabit backbone.

For me, any Minis I use will be at a location that already has a bunch of networked devices. So I can't get rid of any switches anyway. So there is no advantage for me to go to MoCA. If I had a location where the Mini would be the only network connected device I would use MoCA for it instead of a GigE switch.


----------



## jmpage2

Loach said:


> Presumably you have a splitter at some point downstream from the surge unit that branches your coax off to the various rooms? Install the POE filter on the input side of that splitter.


I don't have a traditional splitter per-se. I have a coaxial multiport panel, which has very tight connection tolerances, I'm not sure if I can get the POE filter to fit.

The key thing is, "do I need it". What's the real-world risk of not installing it?


----------



## Loach

jmpage2 said:


> I don't have a traditional splitter per-se. I have a coaxial multiport panel, which has very tight connection tolerances, I'm not sure if I can get the POE filter to fit.
> 
> The key thing is, "do I need it". What's the real-world risk of not installing it?


I see. I'm no expert on network security, so I can't really speak to that, but I think there's some risk that MoCA signal leakage outside of your home somehow causes problems for your neighbors, and the cable co. traces the source of the problem back to your cable plant. Their fix, of course, would likely be to install a POE filter at some point (maybe further upstream from your panel if it won't fit in there).


----------



## jmpage2

Loach said:


> I see. I'm no expert on network security, so I can't really speak to that, but I think there's some risk that MoCA signal leakage outside of your home somehow causes problems for your neighbors, and the cable co. traces the source of the problem back to your cable plant. Their fix, of course, would likely be to install a POE filter at some point (maybe further upstream from your panel if it won't fit in there).


OK, thanks. I will check and see if I can find a point of entry filter locally and if so I will see if installation is possible. I don't want to degrade my neighbors service.


----------



## Loach

jmpage2 said:


> OK, thanks. I will check and see if I can find a point of entry filter locally and if so I will see if installation is possible. I don't want to degrade my neighbors service.


Good luck finding one locally. I don't think anyone carries them (or even knows what they are) in my neck of the woods. But your cable co. might just give you one if you ask - chances are they are using them in their own whole home DVR installs and may be happy to give you one if they understand it could prevent problems for them.

I just ordered one from an eBay seller for about $8 shipped IIRC.


----------



## johnmsch

Dan203 said:


> Yes. You just need to enable MoCa bridging in the XL4's network configuration menu and the mini will be able to talk to the internet through the XL4's Ethernet connection.


Worked like a champ! All I had to do was enable MoCA on the XL4. Just can't believe it worked that easily. Very impressive!

BTW, I ordered by mini Tuesday morning around 11:00am EDT. There was a $38 charge for 2-day shipping. I just took the free UPS ground shipping. It arrived today! Maybe I'm just lucky it got here in 2 days, but I'm really glad I didn't spend the extra bucks.

Thanks again Dan for the help.


----------



## Dan203

Glad it all worked out for you.

I've paid the extra $3.99 to have an item overnighted to me from Amazon only to have them ship it via UPS ground because it came from the Amazon warehouse the next town over. Always p*sses me off.  But you can never tell where exactly it's going to ship from so if you need it right away you have to pay.


----------



## compnurd

Dan203 said:


> Glad it all worked out for you.
> 
> I've paid the extra $3.99 to have an item overnighted to me from Amazon only to have them ship it via UPS ground because it came from the Amazon warehouse the next town over. Always p*sses me off.  But you can never tell where exactly it's going to ship from so if you need it right away you have to pay.


Oh that drives me nuts all the time


----------



## anom

Hmm... Not sure where I'm going wrong with my set up, maybe someone can point it out.

I have an XL4, connected via ethernet, using a Comcast cable card. I just got a Mini for the bedroom. I enabled MoCA on the Tivo (I've never used it before), gave it permission to allocate a tuner to the Mini and plugged the coax in the bedroom into the Mini.

I registered the Mini with Tivo and started guided set up. I selected MoCA, but the Mini does not recognize a network.

From what I gathered here, if my Tivo is hooked up through ethernet and connected to a coax cable, I don't need a MoCA adapter. Am I wrong about that? If not, what did I miss?


----------



## Dan203

Sounds like you've got it connected right. When you setup the XL4 did you use the MoCa+Ethernet option?

Are there a lot of splitters or a really long run of coax between the TiVo and Mini? Anything else that might be blocking the signal like an amplifier or filter of any kind?


----------



## anom

Dan203 said:


> Sounds like you've got it connected right. When you setup the XL4 did you use the MoCa+Ethernet option?
> 
> Are there a lot of splitters or a really long run of coax between the TiVo and Mini? Anything else that might be blocking the signal like an amplifier or filter of any kind?


Yes, Ethernet + MoCA.

No amplifiers or filters. I didn't run any cable, there's a cable in the living room and one in the bedroom. The rooms aren't far apart, but I don't know how much cable there is between the two rooms.

When I connect the Tivo to the network, it seems to be loading information very, very slowly since I enabled MoCA. But I'm still able to get my normal HD connection on Netflix.


----------



## Dan203

When I bought my MoCa adapter I had a little trouble getting it to talk to the TiVo. I ended up rebooting the TiVo, waiting until it was completely done, then powering on the adapter. It took a couple more minutes and then they finally synced. Since then both have been powered off multiple times and never had a problem syncing. Only that during initial setup did I have any trouble.


----------



## overFEDEXed

BigJimOutlaw said:


> MoCA 1.1 has a max PHY rate of 270, though the actual data rate is lower. But a strong phy rate means a strong data rate.
> 
> General rule of thumb in case of any future troubleshooting... A moca 1.1 PHY rate over 200 is solid. Under 200 can mean there's a weak or damaged connection somewhere, but it still may work if it's not too bad. (I stress I'm not referring to data transfer rates. Those will be lower.)


Thank you for this info. My PHY rates were 120!, before I read your post.
I removed a couple of 1000mhz splitters and now I'm at 220.

Now, to get the POE in place. Cox included three with their free connection kits.

Thanks again.


----------



## dmk1974

Hi all. I wound up buying a TiVo Premiere 4 today (the 75-hour 4-tuner model) and a TiVo Mini so we can watch TiVo on our little kitchen HDTV.

I have it all connected just like option #2 from the TiVo site:
http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-mini/index.html

No separate MoCA adapter since my understanding per that setup is that I do not need one (right?). The 4-tuner TiVo actually set up fine (and surprisingly the cablecard transfer via Comcast only took a 6 minute call).

But while setting up the TiVo Mini now, I am not getting a MoCA network connection established via the coax wall connection. Did I not follow the connection instructions correctly? I had that kitchen TV connected to a little Comcast box for a couple years so I know the connection and signal strength is good (for TV at least).

EDIT: I decided to reboot the new 4-tuner TiVo and after it restarted, I was able to see it from the TiVo Mini. Now downloading all the updates, but I am now able to watch live TV on the Mini! Pretty slick!


----------



## HazelW

I set up the mini (after activating) and used MOCA. I kept getting a C33 error--no MOCA. I have an XL4 on MOCA and it works fine. So I switched to Ethernet using a MOCA adapter (NIM100) and now the mini worked fine. Tried MOCA again and same error. I must have a MOCA siganlon the outlet since the NIM100 works, but the mini does not. Any suggestions?


----------



## farlz

I have FIOS so already have MOCA via the Verizon router. Just hooked up an XL4 and two mini's intending on using the built-in MOCA in all three. The XL4 connected fine, but the two mini's could not find the MOCA network. Like the poster above I had a nim-100 MOCA adapter handy so I used that for one mini and it worked fine. Why does my existing MOCA equipment and the XL4 work fine with the Verizon router but the mini's do not?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Hazel/farlz... this might be a stretch but have your Minis been updated to the latest software? When the Mini first came out, an update was available right away that cleared up a moca networking issue for me. Maybe connecting both through the NIM100 temporarily (or some other means) to let them grab the newest software release could help fix it? Just a thought.


----------



## HazelW

I did update the software on mine but it still had the problem. I sent mine back to amazon (after calling TiVo) and am getting a new one today. I hope there is not a bad batch of minis with defective MOCA.


----------



## HazelW

Just got my replacement mini and it has the same problem. Moca does not work, but nim100 works on same outlet. I guess I'll just try to get my lifetime service refunded and return the mini and do without. Can't see trying it over and over until TiVo recalls the bad batch--assuming that is what it is.


----------



## aaronwt

HazelW said:


> Just got my replacement mini and it has the same problem. Moca does not work, but nim100 works on same outlet. I guess I'll just try to get my lifetime service refunded and return the mini and do without. Can't see trying it over and over until TiVo recalls the bad batch--assuming that is what it is.


Have you tried manually selecting the MoCA channel for all your MoCA devices?


----------



## HazelW

I have not tried that but I did try using a different device to connect to the router. The XL4 on Moca worked fine either way but the mini does not.


----------



## Dan203

As a test try putting the mini in the same room as the XL4 and see if they can talk via MoCa. Could be that the nim100 is just better at picking up a weak signal. If that's the case then you may want to check your wiring and remove any unused splitters or cable runs to boost the signal to the room where you actually want the Mini. If it doesn't work even in the same room then there is something wrong with the Mini itself.


----------



## farlz

Do the minis use a different chipset for MOCA than theXL4?


----------



## Dan203

I believe the MoCa capabilities in the Mini are built right into the main Broadcom chipset. Also I seem to remember seeing something somewhere that said the Mini was only MoCa 1.1 capable, while the XL4 was 1.2. Although I'm not sure what that difference entails in the real world. Obviously TiVo designed the Mini to work with the XL4 so their MoCa capabilities must be compatible.


----------



## farlz

I know the mini and XL4 are compatible when using the XL4 as the source of the MOCA, but it appears that for those of us with existing MOCA from a Verizon MI424WR Verizon FIOS router, the XL4 connects fine as a client but the minis do not. Has anyone here been able to connect a mini to a Verizon MI424WR?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I'm not experiencing any issues using the Fios/Actiontec router.

For either of you, are there any amps or old splitters rated for less than 1000MHz on the coax leading to those TVs? Either of those could kill the MoCA signal. Ideally there would be no amps and any questionable splitters should be at least 1000MHz.

If an amp is in use, it would ideally be at the coax's point of entry in the house so that all the moca devices can find each other without having to pass through it. But if that's not doable, it also needs to be able to pass-through frequencies up to at least 1000 MHz.


----------



## HazelW

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I'm not experiencing any issues using the Fios/Actiontec router.
> 
> For either of you, are there any amps or old splitters rated for less than 1000MHz on the coax leading to those TVs? Either of those could kill the MoCA signal. Ideally there would be no amps and any questionable splitters should be at least 1000MHz.
> 
> If an amp is in use, it would ideally be at the coax's point of entry in the house so that all the moca devices can find each other without having to pass through it. But if that's not doable, it also needs to be able to pass-through frequencies up to at least 1000 MHz.


In my case, all of the outlets home run to a spliter with no amps. My Moca works fine on all outlets I have tried. I have used actiontek routers and nim100 with no problem. The XL4 works fine. The two minis I have tried did not work on moca and I tried both an actiontek router and a min100 connected to my router. XL4 worked with either, minis did not.

Tivo is replacing my second mini, so I'll have another go at it next week.


----------



## HazelW

Well, I got my third mini to try and have the same problem(MOCA does not work). So I bought an official TiVo MOCA adapter to use at the router end of my network. The mini still does not connect via MOCA but does connect via Ethernet using a NIM100 MOCA adapter on the same outlet. I guess I'll just have to resign myself to using that.


----------



## Dan203

I'm betting your signal quality is right on the edge. The NIM100 must just be better at establishing a connection with poor signal quality then the MoCa adapter built into the Mini.


----------



## farlz

I have the same exact scenario as HazelW. I went ahead and bought the newest Fios router from the Verizon online store (wireless N and gigE) thinking maybe the older one didn't have Moca 1.1 or something, but NO, same issue, the Mini's won't connect but the nim100 does. I turned the old router into a Moca bridge in another room and it connects fine too while the second Mini won't connect via Moca in that spot either. There's something seriously wrong with the Moca in these things. Is it possible they are designed to work over Moca ONLY when the Premier is the source of the Moca and not another client?


----------



## Dan203

I don't think that's possible. But you could test it. Turn the router's MoCa off, connect the premiere to the router using Ethernet and then enable the Premiere's MoCa Bridge Mode. If that works then you at least know it's a compatibility issue between the router and the Mini and not a signal strength issue.


----------



## HazelW

Tivo.com says:

Verify you have not accidentally connected both a coax cable and an Ethernet cable to a 4-tuner TiVo DVR on your MoCA network. Doing so will automatically enable the Bridge mode, and the TiVo DVR will attempt to create another MoCA network rather than use the current network.

I do have a switch connected to the Ethernet port of my XL4 that connects to a PS3 and a TV. Works fine. What does it mean that the DVR will "attempt to create another MoCA network". 

I guess I'll try disconnecting the ethernet from the XL4 and see what that does.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Worth trying I guess. Not sure if it'll be fruitful.

It means pretty much that. The Fios router creates a moca network. If the Tivo is in bridge mode, it will try to create its own moca network too. This conflict can cause signal problems. One can also make sure there isn't a conflict by going into the network settings and confirm the Tivo is set strictly to "moca connection" and not "moca + ethernet".

Wish I knew what's happening for some folks. The Fios router + Tivo setup is playing well for me.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Shot in the dark, but does anybody with Mini troubles want to try disabling the IGMP Proxy on their Fios router?

Advanced > IGMP Proxy > Disable

Unless you use their multi-room DVR, you don't need it. It's mostly a data sharing/auto discovery thing and probably won't work, but it helped fix an unrelated problem I was having with various devices as well as the iOS app.


----------



## Hrbek14

One note to make - after looking through this thread, I sent off a message to TiVo support to ask about the ethernet port on the TiVo Mini. Since I'll be using MoCA with my XL4 running the network (it is directly attached to the router) and my Mini will be in another room, connected by MoCA, I thought I might be able to use the ethernet port on the Mini to connect another device to the network, but support said it is an input only port, so I'd need to get a MoCA adapter to do that. Too bad - it seems like I should be able to piggy-back on the built-in capability.


----------



## Dan203

Yeah the Mini does not bridge MoCa and Ethernet like the XL4 does. On the Mini it's one or the other.


----------



## farlz

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Wish I knew what's happening for some folks. The Fios router + Tivo setup is playing well for me.


Do you also have a Mini in the mix with your Fios router and Tivo?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

farlz said:


> Do you also have a Mini in the mix with your Fios router and Tivo?


Yep. I have an Elite and Mini using moca, and a classic Premiere using moca via a second Actiontec router in bridge mode.


----------



## HazelW

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Worth trying I guess. Not sure if it'll be fruitful.
> 
> It means pretty much that. The Fios router creates a moca network. If the Tivo is in bridge mode, it will try to create its own moca network too. This conflict can cause signal problems. One can also make sure there isn't a conflict by going into the network settings and confirm the Tivo is set strictly to "moca connection" and not "moca + ethernet".
> 
> Wish I knew what's happening for some folks. The Fios router + Tivo setup is playing well for me.


I disconnected the ethernet cable from my XL4, but the network status still says "moca + ethernet". It also says "no more moca nodes available". Perhaps I should reboot the DVR and see if that makes a difference.


----------



## HazelW

Well I just reset the network on the XL4 to ethernet and of course it did not connect since there is no ethernet connected. I then reset it to moca. At first it said it could not find a connection but after trying a few times it connected via moca. I then went to the mini and tried moca again, and viola--it worked!

The XL4 still says "ethernet + moca" even though there is no ethernet cable connected right now.

Next step will be to reconnect the ethernet cabel on the XL4 that goes to a switch and a PS3 and TV and see if the mini still works.

So faltz--give that a try and see if you can get the mini to work.


----------



## farlz

Thanks, will do (might be a while, it's actually my dad's setup which I "support"). I also have a Roku connected to the XL4's ethernet port, hopefully that won't be an issue. I never did reboot the XL4 after installing the Mini's (was pressed for time), I should knock myself in the head for disregarding the first step in computer troubleshooting - REBOOT!


----------



## HazelW

farlz said:


> Thanks, will do (might be a while, it's actually my dad's setup which I "support"). I also have a Roku connected to the XL4's ethernet port, hopefully that won't be an issue. I never did reboot the XL4 after installing the Mini's (was pressed for time), I should knock myself in the head for disregarding the first step in computer troubleshooting - REBOOT!


Also, disconnect the Roku before trying the mini again. I actually did not reboot, just redid the network setup after disconnecting the ethernet cable.


----------



## topperge

Hey guys,
I've been trying to get this working with both Brighthouse and Tivo tech support for two days and it's become a bunch of finger pointing. Hoping to get some help here.

My setup is an XL4 connected to a Sonicwall TZ215 router via Ethernet and enabling the MOCA bridge on the XL4. I'm trying to get it to connect to a Mini via MOCA. 

I've confirmed that the TV signal is getting to the TV where the mini is so no problems there. I've put a POE filter in the correct spot before any splitters. I'm running a Motorola SB6141 of my own which does not have MOCA built in. 

My XL4 and Mini will not get on the MOCA network at all. The XL4 gets an IP from the Sonicwall but the bridging doesn't seem to be working. When I plug the mini directly into the XL4 the MOCA interfaces on both sides are enabled and online but the mini isn't able to find the XL4. (It's farkin direct connected!!!) At this point Brighthouse and Tivo are at a loss.

Any ideas?
Matt


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

topperge said:


> Hey guys,
> I've been trying to get this working with both Brighthouse and Tivo tech support for two days and it's become a bunch of finger pointing. Hoping to get some help here.
> 
> My setup is an XL4 connected to a Sonicwall TZ215 router via Ethernet and enabling the MOCA bridge on the XL4. I'm trying to get it to connect to a Mini via MOCA.
> 
> I've confirmed that the TV signal is getting to the TV where the mini is so no problems there. I've put a POE filter in the correct spot before any splitters. I'm running a Motorola SB6141 of my own which does not have MOCA built in.
> 
> My XL4 and Mini will not get on the MOCA network at all. The XL4 gets an IP from the Sonicwall but the bridging doesn't seem to be working. When I plug the mini directly into the XL4 the MOCA interfaces on both sides are enabled and online but the mini isn't able to find the XL4. (It's farkin direct connected!!!) At this point Brighthouse and Tivo are at a loss.
> 
> Any ideas?
> Matt


Sounds like you know what you're doing. Is the XL4 network settings set to "ethernet + moca" for your setup?

Are all of the splitters between the XL4 and Mini rated for at least 1000 MHz? You may get a TV signal, but moca operates at a higher frequency than the video.

Is there an amp? That too would need to be able to pass-through at least 1000MHz.


----------



## Pacomartin

I like this diagram because it clearly shows the coax output labelled "TV/STB out" going to the cable modem, and not to the TV/STB.

I realized that the bridge has an engraved label for another intended purpose, that of being used in pairs. In pair usage, the Coax is just a relay for the ethernet signal.

I note that the cable installer put two MoCa filters on my system. One at the "point of entry" and a second one at the cable modem. I am not precisely sure what is the reason for the second filter, but it works fine. I assume that he knows what he is doing.

I am curious as to the motivation, however.


----------



## topperge

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Sounds like you know what you're doing. Is the XL4 network settings set to "ethernet + moca" for your setup?
> 
> Are all of the splitters between the XL4 and Mini rated for at least 1000 MHz? You may get a TV signal, but moca operates at a higher frequency than the video.
> 
> Is there an amp? That too would need to be able to pass-through at least 1000MHz.


Yes, shows ethernet+moca, but you might have hit on something with the splitters. I don't have any amps but the splitters only work up to 1002MHz. After reading moca runs between 500-1500.

Looks like I'm making a rat shack trip in the morning.


----------



## Loach

Pacomartin said:


> I like this diagram because it clearly shows the coax output labelled "TV/STB out" going to the cable modem, and not to the TV/STB.
> 
> I realized that the bridge has an engraved label for another intended purpose, that of being used in pairs. In pair usage, the Coax is just a relay for the ethernet signal.
> 
> I note that the cable installer put two MoCa filters on my system. One at the "point of entry" and a second one at the cable modem. I am not precisely sure what is the reason for the second filter, but it works fine. I assume that he knows what he is doing.
> 
> I am curious as to the motivation, however.


I actually don't much like that diagram because it sort of implies that you *need* the MoCA adapter connected to the cable modem, which you don't. You just need it connected to your cable plant *somewhere*. My adapter is bridged in the basement, nowhere near my cable modem.

The MoCA filter your installer put at the cable modem is to prevent MoCA interference with the modem. There has been much debate on these forums as to whether it's necessary or actually does anything, but it isn't likely to hurt.


----------



## Bigg

The MoCA filter on the modem does absolutely nothing. The legitimate debate is whether you need one at the point of entry, and from what I've heard, the answer is usually no, but sometimes yes.


----------



## Dan203

The POE filter does two things....

1) It prevents your neighbors from potentially getting on your network if it's not encrypted. 

2) It prevents your MoCa signal from interfering with your neighbors services. 

Some cable companies actually require them for MoCa and will give you one for free if you ask.


----------



## lessd

Bigg said:


> The MoCA filter on the modem does absolutely nothing. The legitimate debate is whether you need one at the point of entry, and from what I've heard, the answer is usually no, but sometimes yes.


I have about 12 cable runs from the cable amp in the cellar, the Moca feed comes down one of these runs and I have a POE filter on the input of the amp, I also put filters on some runs that don't need Moca including the modem, does this give more Moca speed ?, I don't know but it does not seem like it does any harm, and POE filters are not that much money.


----------



## MikeAndrews

Dan203 said:


> The POE filter does two things....
> 
> 1) It prevents your neighbors from potentially getting on your network if it's not encrypted.
> 
> 2) It prevents your MoCa signal from interfering with your neighbors services.
> 
> Some cable companies actually require them for MoCa and will give you one for free if you ask.


 I just ordered the ActionTec pair from TiVo for my neighbor. I didn't notice the POE filter. Owell. I'll probably need a third bridge for him soon.

TiVo's price of $89.99 was a better deal than elsewhere, even after adding shipping and tax. It's $10 less than even Amazon Prime.

Will I need to check or upgrade the firmware?


----------



## MikeAndrews

I went back to tivo.com and ordered the third MOCA and the POE filter. I'm going to call first thing to see if they can combine the orders to save me $9 in shipping.


----------



## Bigg

I just encrypted mine, and I don't have a PoE filter.


----------



## MikeAndrews

I just installed my Actiontec MOCA adapter mesh for my neighbor.

I made a mistake at first that I figured out. I put the main cable feed into the 1st MOCA through the POE and ran the TV/STB output to the house splitter. WRONG!

The cable IN sides of the MOCAs have to see each other. The signal is not on the output port. The clue was when the "Coax" light on the node doesn't come on.

I have the 3 node mesh working and it's blazing fast. The wiring is very complicated as the DD-WRT WiFI router is upstairs so the cable internet goes up to go in, and the output feed goes to the MOCA back in the basement. Besides that one of the nodes feeds a second WiFi router running DD-WRT to bring a signal to the third level with a (now) wired WDS mesh.

In the end the wired throughput is sensational. The Roku and a Mac Mini media server now wired in were screaming fast.

My bud kept telling me he was "getting 4 bars" upstairs but I tried to tell him that doesn't mean anything. Actual throughput through the 2nd wireless AP on the dedicated MOCA 2nd wireless AP should be great now, too, though.

We may add a 4th MOCA node to bring wired net to the office on the 2nd level.

_Do not try this at home. I am a professional._ 

I just have to swap my 4 port splitter for an 8 port and clean up a buncha long cables.


----------



## MikeAndrews

netringer said:


> I just installed my Actiontec MOCA adapter mesh for my neighbor.
> 
> I made a mistake at first that I figured out. I put the main cable feed into the 1st MOCA through the POE and ran the TV/STB output to the house splitter. WRONG!
> 
> The cable IN sides of the MOCAs have to see each other. The signal is not on the output port. The clue was when the "Coax" light on the node doesn't come on.
> 
> I have the 3 node mesh working and it's blazing fast. The wiring is very complicated as the DD-WRT WiFI router is upstairs so the cable internet goes up to go in, and the output feed goes to the MOCA back in the basement. Besides that one of the nodes feeds a second WiFi router running DD-WRT to bring a signal to the third level with a (now) wired WDS mesh.
> 
> In the end the wired throughput is sensational. The Roku and a Mac Mini media server now wired in were screaming fast.
> 
> My bud kept telling me he was "getting 4 bars" upstairs but I tried to tell him that doesn't mean anything. Actual throughput through the 2nd wireless AP on the dedicated MOCA 2nd wireless AP should be great now, too, though.
> 
> We may add a 4th MOCA node to bring wired net to the office on the 2nd level.
> 
> _Do not try this at home. I am a professional._
> 
> I just have to swap my 4 port splitter for an 8 port and clean up a buncha long cables.


Well, all is not all sweetness...

The furthest away ActionTec MoCa adapter won't connect on the coax. I fear that the cable run might be more than 300 feet but that seems unlikely.

I did some minimal hacking and found which cable it's on, and made sure that all of the MoCAs are on one splitter. I brought that adapter to the splitter and verified that it can talk to it's brothers. While Iw as at it I verified *that using the old 1000MHz (1GHz) splitter WILL NOT WORK with the MoCA signal.*

I have a 4 port 1500Mhz splitter. I'm temporarily feeding the old splitter from it. I have an 8 port splitter on order.

I found this decent article:
http://www.cablefax.com/tech/sections/features/44237.html

Based on that I'm going to try putting the two units back to back on the cable run for testing, and removing the 2nd splitter, and/or the unused and unterminated cables from the other splitter.

More Anon. I'm having a hard time getting enough hacking time access.


----------



## L David Matheny

netringer said:


> Well, all is not all sweetness...
> 
> The furthest away ActionTec MoCa adapter won't connect on the coax. I fear that the cable run might be more than 300 feet but that seems unlikely.
> 
> I did some minimal hacking and found which cable it's on, and made sure that all of the MoCAs are on one splitter. I brought that adapter to the splitter and verified that it can talk to it's brothers. While Iw as at it I verified *that using the old 1000MHz (1GHz) splitter WILL NOT WORK with the MoCA signal.*
> 
> I have a 4 port 1500Mhz splitter. I'm temporarily feeding the old splitter from it. I have an 8 port splitter on order.
> 
> I found this decent article:
> http://www.cablefax.com/tech/sections/features/44237.html
> 
> Based on that I'm going to try putting the two units back to back on the cable run for testing, and removing the 2nd splitter, and/or the unused and unterminated cables from the other splitter.
> 
> More Anon. I'm having a hard time getting enough hacking time access.


How old are the coaxial cable runs? Are they all RG6, or could some of them be older RG59, which loses more signal over distance?


----------



## MikeAndrews

I may end up having to add Powerline Ethernet. 

Whatta mess.


----------



## MikeAndrews

netringer said:


> Well, all is not all sweetness...
> 
> The furthest away ActionTec MoCa adapter won't connect on the coax. I fear that the cable run might be more than 300 feet but that seems unlikely.
> 
> ...
> 
> I have a 4 port 1500Mhz splitter. I'm temporarily feeding the old splitter from it. I have an 8 port splitter on order.
> 
> ...
> 
> Based on that I'm going to try putting the two units back to back on the cable run for testing, and removing the 2nd splitter, and/or the unused and unterminated cables from the other splitter.
> 
> More Anon. I'm having a hard time getting enough hacking time access.


I got back to it. SUCCESS!

I think the two main issues were not really knowing which cable went to the node I was looking at, and having the second splitter with unterminated ports.

Step 1: I powered off MoCA #2 which was working.

Hacking: I thought I had just the #1 "source" (feed) and #3 client MoCa on the one cable and THAT didn't work.

Step 2: I was about to bin everything when I connected the source back to the 4 port (only) splitter and got the green LED. We had the Coax link on both sides!

Step 3: Powered up #2 and it joined the two others.

Discussions above led me to believe that the first pair of adapters choose whatever frequencies they can talk on, so I wanted the two farthest nodes to negotiate first.

I also dropped of 3 Zyxel Powerline modules which connected fine.

Then with a few more hours of hacking an checking I got the DD-WRT nodes talking happy with WDS. (turns out they were Ok from the beginning, but I changed the channel and got the far client to connect to the nearest AP.) I put 15DB antennas on the WRT-54G node.

It turned out that I needed to have only 3 RF outlets live for now, so I left it solely on the 4 port splitter. I'll swap in the 8 port splitter when my terminators get here Tuesday.
WOOT!


----------



## b_scott

my parents may get an XL4 and a mini.

Can I just set up an adapter connected to my router, and then screw in both Tivos through Coax as normal and have them both connect? They would both be in different rooms than the router.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

b_scott said:


> my parents may get an XL4 and a mini.
> 
> Can I just set up an adapter connected to my router, and then screw in both Tivos through Coax as normal and have them both connect? They would both be in different rooms than the router.


It should work, yep. See installation option #2 of the original post.


----------



## NoVa

Any pros vs. cons with connecting via Coax vs. Ethernet?

I have both @ each jack location.


----------



## lessd

NoVa said:


> Any pros vs. cons with connecting via Coax vs. Ethernet?
> 
> I have both @ each jack location.


Ethernet is by far the best, Moca over Coax is the next best for TiVo, most people do not have Ethernet at each of their TV/TiVo locations.


----------



## jmpage2

NoVa said:


> Any pros vs. cons with connecting via Coax vs. Ethernet?
> 
> I have both @ each jack location.


The advantage of going MoCa is that you won't be loading up your LAN with traffic to and from the TiVos. Video streaming uses a lot of bandwidth. By using MoCa you are segregating the bandwidth intensive media streaming of the TiVos away from anything else you might be doing on your local wired network.


----------



## aaronwt

lessd said:


> Ethernet is by far the best, Moca over Coax is the next best for TiVo, most people do not have Ethernet at each of their TV/TiVo locations.


From a user perspective there will be no difference whether MoCA or Ethernet is used.


----------



## aaronwt

jmpage2 said:


> The advantage of going MoCa is that you won't be loading up your LAN with traffic to and from the TiVos. Video streaming uses a lot of bandwidth. By using MoCa you are segregating the bandwidth intensive media streaming of the TiVos away from anything else you might be doing on your local wired network.


If you only have a 100mb/s back bone then there will certainly be issues, but a gigabit backbone shouldn't cause any problems for a normal user.


----------



## NoVa

jmpage2 said:


> The advantage of going MoCa is that you won't be loading up your LAN with traffic to and from the TiVos. Video streaming uses a lot of bandwidth. By using MoCa you are segregating the bandwidth intensive media streaming of the TiVos away from anything else you might be doing on your local wired network.


I don't have software that needs to be fed over my Cat6 wired LAN...yet...in my house.
One day in the near future maybe feeding ripped video's via Cat6 from a NAS.
But nothing now.

I think my previous idea was to use the Cat6 ethernet to handle HDMI remote controlling components from a central remote location.

Now with the Mini, it's all about getting the best picture over to a secondary & tertiary locale.

So is my Coax limited in bandwidth & I should be using the Cat6 for 1080i TivO Recording & possible future Netflix streaming?
Does using one or the other affect PQ?


----------



## jmpage2

aaronwt said:


> If you only have a 100mb/s back bone then there will certainly be issues, but a gigabit backbone shouldn't cause any problems for a normal user.


As I'm sure you are aware, many of us aren't "normal" users. My wired LAN is often saturated with things like multiple time machine backups to a high speed NAS that might simultaneously be streaming videos to media devices. I don't need TiVo competing for the bandwidth that's left.


----------



## jmpage2

NoVa said:


> I don't have software that needs to be fed over my Cat6 wired LAN...yet...in my house.
> One day in the near future maybe feeding ripped video's via Cat6 from a NAS.
> But nothing now.
> 
> I think my previous idea was to use the Cat6 ethernet to handle HDMI remote controlling components from a central remote location.
> 
> Now with the Mini, it's all about getting the best picture over to a secondary & tertiary locale.
> 
> So is my Coax limited in bandwidth & I should be using the Cat6 for 1080i TivO Recording & possible future Netflix streaming?
> Does using one or the other affect PQ?


There is absolutely no difference in PQ with the Mini when using Coax (MoCA) or Ethernet.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Tweaked the OP for Roamio information. The 4-tuner Roamio not having native MoCA really does complicate the wording.


----------



## ScaryMike

First off, thank you for this information! I'm trying my best to understand how this works and I do have a working setup. however, I think I'm running and extra Moca Adapter for no reason. I've made a chart to show my setup, and what I THINK i can make my setup to eliminate one of the adapters. However, my goal is not to have the Tivo use moca for its connection, but to make my router speak to my Ethernet HUB upstairs via moca.

Note: My cable modem, router and my Tivo Premier are right next to each other.

Please advise if my alternative setup will work. Thank you!:


----------



## jmpage2

ScaryMike, you can eliminate all of your MoCA adapters.

The Premiere XL4 has an integrated MoCA to ethernet bridge. Simply connect the XL4 via Ethernet and enable MoCA + Ethernet in the settings. All other devices on your network that want to use the MoCA connection will have it supplied via this bridge. There is no need for adapters on any other device with an integrated MoCA client (like the TiVo Mini for example).


----------



## ScaryMike

jmpage2 said:


> ScaryMike, you can eliminate all of your MoCA adapters.
> 
> The Premiere XL4 has an integrated MoCA to ethernet bridge. Simply connect the XL4 via Ethernet and enable MoCA + Ethernet in the settings. All other devices on your network that want to use the MoCA connection will have it supplied via this bridge. There is no need for adapters on any other device with an integrated MoCA client (like the TiVo Mini for example).


Wouldn't I still need an adapter upstairs to "bridge" my hub to my wireless router? There is no Ethernet connection between the wireless router and the hub, and the upstairs tivo is an old TivoHD.

Thank you.


----------



## jmpage2

ScaryMike said:


> Wouldn't I still need an adapter upstairs to "bridge" my hub to my wireless router? There is no Ethernet connection between the wireless router and the hub, and the upstairs tivo is an old TivoHD.
> 
> Thank you.


Is your plan to replace the "old TiVo" with a Mini?

The thing I think you are missing is that the XL4 serves the function of bridging the MoCA to the ENTIRE rest of your network. As long as the XL4 has ethernet and that ethernet connection is viable across the network then any device with MoCA that connects via Coax will connect via the XL4s MoCA bridge and that device will have access to every part of your network that the XL4 does (this extends of course to the internet).

//edit
Looking again at your diagram I see the source of the confusion. You simply have no ethernet at all at the upstairs location and are using MoCA there to extend the network.

If you can't run an ethernet cable to the upstairs location, then the Actiontec adapter should get its connection via the XL4, which will have an ethernet/internet connection to the primary network. You will only need the one MoCA adapter in the network.


----------



## ScaryMike

jmpage2 said:


> Is your plan to replace the "old TiVo" with a Mini?
> 
> The thing I think you are missing is that the XL4 serves the function of bridging the MoCA to the ENTIRE rest of your network. As long as the XL4 has ethernet and that ethernet connection is viable across the network then any device with MoCA that connects via Coax will connect via the XL4s MoCA bridge and that device will have access to every part of your network that the XL4 does (this extends of course to the internet).
> 
> //edit
> Looking again at your diagram I see the source of the confusion. You simply have no ethernet at all at the upstairs location and are using MoCA there to extend the network.
> 
> If you can't run an ethernet cable to the upstairs location, then the Actiontec adapter should get its connection via the XL4, which will have an ethernet/internet connection to the primary network. You will only need the one MoCA adapter in the network.


Thanks! Thats what I was hoping! I'm going to redo to the new setup this weekend (I'm also replacing the premier with a Roamio Plus and the old tivo with a Mini, which I realize will change the setup a bit upstairs too. but at least I now know how to do it).


----------



## ScaryMike

So I attempted to use my new Roamio Plus as the Moca bridge, but every-time I enabled it, my downstream would go from -3.5 to -10 and my cable modem would lose its lock and my internet would go out.

Any thoughts on why this would be? See the diagram I posted a few posts up, and look at the bottom one to see the setup that this is not happening on. 

If I use a moca adapter BEFORE the 3 way splitter, I have no signal strength issues. Its when I take the adapter out, and use the roamio as the moca bridge, that i can no longer get internet. 

Thanks.


----------



## southerndoc

ScaryMike said:


> So I attempted to use my new Roamio Plus as the Moca bridge, but every-time I enabled it, my downstream would go from -3.5 to -10 or and my cable modem would lose its lock and my internet would go out.
> 
> Any thoughts on why this would be? See the diagram I posted a few posts up, and look at the bottom one to see the setup that this is not happening on.
> 
> If I use a moca adapter BEFORE the 3 way splitter, I have no signal strength issues. Its when i take the adapter out, and use the roamio as the moca bridge, that i can no longer get internet.
> 
> Thanks.


Some cable modems have filters to block MoCA signals. My Motorola SurfBoard SB6141 has such a filter.

You could try manually configuring the MoCA setup with a different channel to see if that helps.


----------



## nealm

BigJimOutlaw said:


> *Pro Tip:*
> 
> Using MoCA setup option #2 for your P4/XL4/Roamio Plus/Roamio Pro? Connect your Smart TV, Blu-ray player, Roku, game console, or other device to the Tivo's Ethernet port! Those devices can be daisy chained off your Tivo's MoCA connection. _(If you want to connect multiple devices, you can get a cheap Ethernet hub and plug it into the Tivo's port too.)_
> 
> If there are ideas or things missed in the guide (but remember it's not a complete and total MoCA FAQ, just a setup guide) then post them here. I'll add them!


Can a device be plugged into the Tivo Mini ethernet port and daisy chain off of the MoCA network? Thanks!


----------



## Scooby Doo

nealm said:


> Can a device be plugged into the Tivo Mini ethernet port and daisy chain off of the MoCA network? Thanks!


Unfortunately no.


----------



## MisterWho

netringer said:


> While Iw as at it I verified *that using the old 1000MHz (1GHz) splitter WILL NOT WORK with the MoCA signal.*


Until I changed out my 1000MHz splitter with one rated to 2400MHz, I could not get the mini to keep a connection. I hadn't thought to do this earlier as I had read over and over that 1000MHz was good enough. Yes, it could have been a bad splitter but it was only 3 yrs. old and originally installed by Comcast (decent quality I would hope) so it hadn't given me any problems otherwise with my cable modem or picture quality.


----------



## lessd

MisterWho said:


> Until I changed out my 1000MHz splitter with one rated to 2400MHz, I could not get the mini to keep a connection. I hadn't thought to do this earlier as I had read over and over that 1000MHz was good enough. Yes, it could have been a bad splitter but it was only 3 yrs. old and originally installed by Comcast (decent quality I would hope) so it hadn't given me any problems otherwise with my cable modem or picture quality.


My MoCA worked with my 1Gb splitters but after setting up the MoCA system I did changed out all the splitters to ones over 1Gb, just to be on the safe side.


----------



## aaronwt

I've had no issues with 1Ghz splitters and MoCA. 1Ghz splitters are what FiOS installs and a standard setup on FiOS uses MoCA.


----------



## suspensio

I have a Roamio Plus connected to directly to a comcast cable modem with no router. I have two Mini's connected and MOCA enabled but I can not get them to connect. I have a POE filer on the input side of a 3 way splitter (5-1000 supplied by Comcast). Ahead of that on the drop I have a 2 way splitter feeding another cable modem that feeds my home server and wireless network. I have two separate networks in the home and two cable modems as one is a dedicated IP feeding my server. 

1. When setting up the Minis's I have tried entering the TCP/IP info that the roamio is displaying. It is connecting to the internet with no difficulties through the cable modem attached to it. When I do this, do I give the mini a different IP address or the same?
Or is this the best way to do this?

2. Both Mini's are activated with Tivo and Have been rebooted. I have forced the Roamio reconnection several times


----------



## Scooby Doo

suspensio said:


> I have a Roamio Plus connected to directly to a comcast cable modem with no router. I have two Mini's connected and MOCA enabled but I can not get them to connect. I have a POE filer on the input side of a 3 way splitter (5-1000 supplied by Comcast). Ahead of that on the drop I have a 2 way splitter feeding another cable modem that feeds my home server and wireless network. I have two separate networks in the home and two cable modems as one is a dedicated IP feeding my server.
> 
> 1. When setting up the Minis's I have tried entering the TCP/IP info that the roamio is displaying. It is connecting to the internet with no difficulties through the cable modem attached to it. When I do this, do I give the mini a different IP address or the same?
> Or is this the best way to do this?
> 
> 2. Both Mini's are activated with Tivo and Have been rebooted. I have forced the Roamio reconnection several times


You don't need to enter any IP addresses to setup Moca. Just connect the Minis and the Roamio to the same coax network and they will find each other. It sounds like you are trying to connect the Minis to your network both by ethernet (to your modem) and by Moca (to the Roamio); you can't do that, it's one or the other. Also, if you have two subnets running in your house then you need to make sure that the Minis and the Roamio are all on the same subnet.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Updated the OP for a bit of clarity, accounting for Roamio changes, Roamio wifi, etc. I've also given slight preferential treatment to the Roamio/Mini since that seems to be the catalyst for most of new moca questions/threads popping up. But the info for all types of Tivos is still there.


----------



## MisterWho

I wanted to sum up my minor hiccups and solutions that got me up and running with my new Roamio Plus and Mini setup to hopefully save someone else from having to experience the frustration I did. These may be obvious things but took me some fiddling to figure out:

I COULD NOT get the Mini to connect to the new moca setup I am running from my Roamio until I replaced my existing Comcast-installed splitter with one that was rated to 2400 Mhz. I also installed a POE filter on the main drop. The Mini then got a connection! Great! 

Then, the splitter died two days later (can happen, RMA'd from online retailer). I hooked everythig back up with replacement 2400 Mhz splitter and while I was at it, split the cable modem line from the drop ahead of the POE filter and this 2400 Mhz splitter. Again, connected just fine! Great!

Then, I noticed random errors in the Discovery Bar that no connection was present on both Roamio and therefore Mini. These would often clear up within seconds. I had read others having issues with "green switches" but mine is a netgear FS105 that is only 10/100 so I didnt know if this was the same issue. I rerouted the Roamio ethernet from this switch to the router directly (linksys WRT54G running DD-WRT) and never saw these network errors again! Great!

Then, while enjoying the Mini, I would sometimes get a complete drop out "no host found, network problem, or some such" error. Again, this apparently was temporary as going back to Tivo Central on the Mini and selecting Live TV again would work with no problem. I couldn't figure this one out and didn't find much here or online directing me to a particular solution. I eventually remembered that the Roamio's cable is ran through the surge suppression of my Belkin PureAV AP11000-10. When connecting the Roamio (replacing an Tivo HD), I just hooked the cable line in not even thinking about how it was running through the surge suppressor. Thinking that this might be interferring with the moca the Roamio is trying to send back out through this line, I removed the cable line from the surge suppressor and have not had a single hiccup since! Great!

Now, everything seems to be running smoothly. (Except for one morning a couple days ago, I turned on the Roamio and was getting no picture but audio and no response to remote. Had to pull the plug to restart and have not seen this again in the few days since. Not related to moca discussion, I know, but if anyone has seen this or can provide direction, that would be great. Could have been a fluke)


----------



## synch22

Just want to say I'm new to mini and moca. Off the roamio very surprised moca working just fine with 3 splitters on this line, no filters or amplifiers. Wow.


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## krisbuxton

I need help, I am two weeks into this fiasco and Tivo has been unable to assist though I have talked to them at least 10 times. I had all Premiers and with the kids gone I thought what a better time to tell Comcast to stop charging me for the additional outlet drops and cable cards. So I returned all but 1 cable card and now my brand new 2013 built townhome has coax in every room but I am only looking to get my tivo Roamio working in the living room, and the mini in the master bedroom.

The Master bedroom has a levitron box in the closet in which I see two splitters, and all the cat 5e end connectors that run throughout the house. First thing I tried was running a ethernet cable directly to the Roamio and the Mini. Results were the Roamio seemed to work fine but the mini could see Tivo Central and the Roamio but it simply would not play live tv and it would not play shows even though I could see them and manipulate them and showed the V113 error for about a week.

I have my own owned SB6141 SURFboard going to a dlink 1750 http://www.dlink.com/us/en/home-sol...868l-wireless-ac1750-dual-band-gigabit-router and a netgear gigabit switch in the closet going to all the cat5e and another dlink gigabit switch behind the tv in the master for the roku, PS3, bluray etc...

When I connect the actiontek adaptor for Moca as suggested next to the modem I lose all internet connectivity and wireless, like the router cannot see the internet any longer. I unplug it just from power and it seems to come back, I fiddled with it for several hours and still nothing. I have cable at the Roamio and Cable at the Mini but they both cannot see a gateway.

So I thought I would try ethernet again, Same results as above so I put the Roamio and the mini right next to each other on the same switch and unplugged anything else on the network, still same result No live TV, no able to play recorded on Roamio shows everything else works and still a V113 error.

I dont know what to do or try now, I thought this would be easy but after 14 years with Tivo I want to cancel and tell comcast to bring me a PVR setup.

Please Help anyone,


----------



## dwjohn

Hi, I'm a new forum member, but an existing TiVo user (4 Premieres in house) using Comcast bundled service. 

In order to save money and upgrade functionality I'm planning on switching to a Roamio and 3 Mini's, and also create a MoCa network. I need some fundamental help on the setup/architecture of the network.

I've been reading the threads as well as going to various MoCa-related sites and I'm wanting to make sure I'm correctly understanding how this technology works and how to configure it with my house setup. 

On my current coax / Comcast cabling setup:

I've identified the point-of-entry to my house (where I'll install the POE filter on the input side of the first splitter (3 way). 

In tracing the cables coming out of that 3 way splitter: one coax cable runs outside the house to the back / upstairs living room, where it connects directly to my premiere XL with our primary TV. I'm planning to replace this Tivo unit with the Roamio since this is where we do most of our watching. 

The other two coax cables coming out of that 3 way splitter run into the downstairs. 

One connects to the Comcast modem (which connects to phone system and Ethernet/Wirelss Router (2.4 Ghz Netgear).

The second coax cable goes into another splitter which feeds my other 3 TiVo units located around the house. 

I've ordered an Actiontec Ethernet to Coax Adapter and a 5-1200 MoCa enabled splitter that I was going to replace the existing downstairs splitter.

I was planning to install the Actiontec adaptor next to the Comcast Cable Modem and my Ethernet Router. 

If I put the Actiontec adaptor upstream of the Comcast Modem, and connect the Ethernet cable out of the router back to the adaptor will that establish the MoCa network? 

Or do I need to run another coax cable out of the adaptor and into the second splitter, replacing the current cable coming from the the Point of Entry splitter?

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated...thanks!


----------



## jmpage2

Yes, you should be able to put the action-tec in as you describe to create the MoCA network then put all TiVo devices into moca mode to connect to each other and the internet.


----------



## Bigg

YMMV, but I have a hodgepodge of old splitters that I found when I rented this house, no POE filter, and I rebalanced the system for the modem's DOCSIS channels, and TiVo Premiere 4 QAM tuners, which effectively makes the MoCA signal go through three splitters (up a 2-way, across a 3-way, and down a 4-way), then through a hodgepodge of wiring that ranges from the house's original construction in 1999, and recently installed, and it works great, other than occasional not very intrusive glitching which may or may not have anything to do with my setup.

I'm not sure if a modem will work behind a MoCA adapter, although I don't see why it wouldn't, other than that you can basically put MoCA devices wherever you want and they'll work fine. It's meant to be an idiot-proof system. Don't bother with special splitters, regular 860mhz splitters seem to work fine. It's not like they drop off completely at 865 mhz, and the MoCA gear is pretty powerful.

The only thing you can't do is have another MoCA device connected to the downstream coax port of the MoCA adapter, as MoCA is filtered out. Your setup sounds pretty good, as you should be trying to balance power for DOCSIS and QAM, not MoCA. MoCA will pretty much survive whatever mess you create for it when you balance your system.


----------



## uw69

I am currently using two mini's connected via Ethernet to my Roamio plus. I am thinking about adding a 3rd mini and would like to connect it via MoCa. Can I have both Ethernet and MoCa mini's on the same Roamio?


----------



## jmpage2

uw69 said:


> I am currently using two mini's connected via Ethernet to my Roamio plus. I am thinking about adding a 3rd mini and would like to connect it via MoCa. Can I have both Ethernet and MoCa mini's on the same Roamio?


Yes, you can have both. Turn on MoCA bridge mode on your Roamio plus, and just connect other Minis to the coaxial connection and assuming there's nothing wrong with the wiring in your coax network it should work fine.


----------



## bayern_fan

jmpage2 said:


> Yes, you can have both. Turn on MoCA bridge mode on your Roamio plus, and just connect other Minis to the coaxial connection and assuming there's nothing wrong with the wiring in your coax network it should work fine.


Not sure if this was mentioned elsewhere, but is it suggested to have a POE filter on the mini outlet when using a Roamio Plus as your MoCa bridge?


----------



## jmpage2

bayern_fan said:


> Not sure if this was mentioned elsewhere, but is it suggested to have a POE filter on the mini outlet when using a Roamio Plus as your MoCa bridge?


No, you shouldn't need that. One Poe filter either at the cable modem or entry point into the home of the coaxial feed.


----------



## HarperVision

bayern_fan said:


> Not sure if this was mentioned elsewhere, but is it suggested to have a POE filter on the mini outlet when using a Roamio Plus as your MoCa bridge?


If you do that, then you'll block to MoCa signal all together. Kind of defeats the purpose.


----------



## BayouBoy32

Is it OK to install the POE filter for MOCA in advance of getting a Mini to go with my Roamio Pro? And if I decide after trying MOCA I would prefer to go with Ethernet and run a Ethernet line, can I leave the filter inline without any lose of signal? Thanks in advance.


----------



## jmpage2

BayouBoy32 said:


> Is it OK to install the POE filter for MOCA in advance of getting a Mini to go with my Roamio Pro? And if I decide after trying MOCA I would prefer to go with Ethernet and run a Ethernet line, can I leave the filter inline without any lose of signal? Thanks in advance.


Yes, there's no reason you can't do that. Many cable modems even have POE filters installed and it doesn't hurt anything for them to be there. All they do is block MoCA signals, not other things you use the coaxial network for.


----------



## BayouBoy32

jmpage2 said:


> Yes, there's no reason you can't do that. Many cable modems even have POE filters installed and it doesn't hurt anything for them to be there. All they do is block MoCA signals, not other things you use the coaxial network for.


Thanks for the info. I installed it in the box on the side of house. I am glad I purchased the terminator lock removal tool. Made the job very easy. I checked all signals on Tivo and internet and as you said it doesn't hurt anything. Now all set when I get the Mini to try MOCA.


----------



## Bigg

I must have jinxed myself... I'm getting random disconnection issues now.

EDIT: Not sure yet if it's MoCA or software yet...


----------



## cometstorm

Help! I've been at this for three days now, and STILL can't get my Romio 4-tuner (basic) w/2 moca adapters to work! I pray to the Almighty that someone can help as I'm now getting past frustrated....

Here's what I'm wanting to do: I have the basic Romio 4 turner in my Greatroom, with the moca adapter properly attached. I want to moca to my bedroom TV mini. My den is where my desktop computer, stand alone Motorola modem, Netgear DX-E402 10/100M wireless/wired router is.

I have four other TV's in various parts of the house, but they are simply straight coaxed from the basement splitter (no Tivo involvement, outside antenna only).

My house is single story ranch, with an unfinished basement.

Here's my setup: I have a splitter outside the house with the two lines feeding into the basement. One goes directly to the modem in the den/computer room (no TV is in there).

The other feeds into the "in" of an 8 outlet amplified splitter in the basement. There is also another IN on the splitter where a coax runs a short way to a powered transformer. This "IN" says Vo/IP Modem. I have no idea what that is for...it is left over from my cable company which I just exited their cable and phone plan (kept the internet). I do know if I unplug THAT coax, the splitter light goes off and none of my TV's work.

The amplified splitter can be seen in detail here:

https://www.liveitwithcharter.com/pdf/installation_guide.pdf

Anyway, I strongly believe I have the great room Romio TIVO and moca adapter setup properly. At least all three lights on the Actiontec adapter light up.

The bedroom w/mini seems to be setup properly as well (not too much to mess up on that!).

My HUGE problem seems to be getting the den/computer moca adapter situation squared away. THIS is where I've spent the past 3 days!

I never could get the CABLE light to illuminate on the moca adapter. (the first two would light....power and Ethernet).

This is the configuration I've tried over and over....

Cable internet coax line to Moca "in." Coax jumper cable from Moca "out" to modem "in."

Moca ethernet line to Router LAN "in" (one of four lan points on the router).

WAN out on router to Ethernet on modem.

And, of course the required 12V power cords to each.

This simply has not worked. The coax light will NOT come on....

The last time I tried, the moca adapter got a burnt smell.....and now it won't light up at all! GGGGRRRRRR>>>>>> "Banging head on desk!"

So, I ordered ANOTHER moca adapter from Tivo over 24 hours ago. Paid almost $30 for one day shipping. According to my account w/Tivo, it STILL hasn't shipped.... "Banging head on desk again!"

What the heck am I doing wrong? Please.....Anyone????

Also, I'm wondering with this setup....how does my great room Romio w/moca "see" my coax moca network through my setup in the den, since that all seems to be tied into data, not TV coax?

It just doesn't make sense.....

Just what, and how many items am I missing here?

Thanks for your patience with my rants!


----------



## jmpage2

The reason that if you unplug the "in" voip/modem on your powered splitter you lose everything is because that is the lead that goes from the transformer and activates the splitter! With that many runs, if it's older coax you probably need the splitter to be active or the signal level is too low for all of the various runs that you have in the home.

From the manual you provided, your splitter only goes up to 1000mhz and is OLD, it's on the ragged edge and there's a good chance that it is stripping the MoCA signal out!

As a test, when you get the new Actiontec, do this;

Disconnect the powered splitter in the basement. Connect a simple passive splitter with at least a 1000mhz+ rating and hook up the main feed from your outside-of-the-house cable split along with the feeds to the Mini coax drop and the drop to your family room Roamio.

Connect the Actiontec at the modem. If it still is not working then you have some other problem possibly related to the way the cable is split outside of the house, such as a ground-loop on the coax, etc.

If it does work, then verify that your adapter at the Roamio as well as the Mini are both getting MoCA and working.

Then you can work backwards with replacing your old powered splitters, faulty coaxial runs/splits in your house, etc.

It's also entirely possible that the Actiontec adapter you were using at the cable modem side is faulty. Did you try the very simple process of elimination step of trying the MoCA adapter from the family room TiVo in the room with the cable modem? We call this "frogging it". If the problem occurs with that adapter than you have a wiring problem. If the problem goes away then you simply had a faulty MoCA adapter and you've been banging your head against the wall for nothing.


----------



## cometstorm

Thanks for that quick response, JmPage2! Much appreciated!

What you say makes good sense.

I did try switching out the adapters (before the one blew), and there was no change. In other words, the one from the Great room (romio)..when placed at the computer...would get no coax light either, just the first two lights. But the one moved to the Great Room would get all three lights.

As to the amplified splitter, I figured that the one line from the transformer was providing the power. It was just the VoIP/Modem printing at that input point...I couldn't figure what that meant and was having to scratch my head...why didn't it just say POWER. Maybe something to do with when I previously had Charter digital phone, TV, and internet (there is a two way splitter right at the transformer....one is the coax to VoIP IN previously mentioned, the other is just empty (not even a coax line to it).

Anyhoots, I'm not one for patience. I HATE IT when things don't work! lol!

With that in mind, you ever try finding a moca adapter IN current store inventory (or a POE filter for that matter)? I've tried everything in and around St. Louis. No can do. Not even Best Buy or Radio Shack, and many others. So, here I wait twiddling my thumbs waiting for the delivery.

I see what you suggest on bypassing the amplified splitter and going that route. Great suggestion. Can't wait to try it.

Oh, for the record....the Roamio in the Great Room is working fine. Programming, Netflix, etc. But, it's just working off the wireless signal.

I DO have a CAT 5 available which runs from the great room Blue Ray, through the basement, and to my Netgear router. Don't know if that could help me out here or not? Then again, going another Cat 5 from the router to the mini in the bedroom could be a problem ease-wise.

So, enlighten me.....How in the heck do the MoCA adapters "SEE" my TV coax wiring in the house? It just seems to me that since it's wired to the modem, all it would "see" is internet data and not coax TV.

Am I missing something, or just sounding stupid (AGAIN!)...

Thanks so much!


----------



## jmpage2

If you installed a small network switch at your great room location you could connect the blu-ray player as well as a Roamio Plus.... then enable MoCA bridge on the Roamio Plus and it would become the MoCA provider for your entire network.. no actiontek adapters would be needed.

This would obviously only work if you are in the exchange window for your Roamio basic and are willing to spend $140 or so more for the next level up Roamio.

If you are planning on using MoCA at your great room with the basic, you will need to reconfigure it so that it does not use the Wi-Fi... assuming you get the actiontek adapter problems sorted out.


----------



## cometstorm

Thanks!

That makes sence. Yet, I've got so much $$$ tied up now with the adapters....and with the one on the way (weather in Dallas has no doubt delayed it), guess I'll just ride it out.

With your kind input, I'm quite sure I'll get 'er done!


----------



## mlaw8

Guys - I'm having problems after reading everything I can find and playing with each piece and part. I've attached my setup...the first drawing is how I think it should be set up to be working. In this case none of the MoCA devices are making a connection. When I insert the old splitter into the equation (per Phil's from AVSForums advice) I get 2 of the 3 devices working (illustrated in second picture). Apprciate any additional advice/options. I'm waiting for a MoCA filter to add into the equation but they have been slow to get here. Thanks - Mark


----------



## Bigg

What the heck are you doing with diplexers? Just put one amp above the whole system, then the MoCA filter, and then the splitters if you really don't want the MoCA touching the amp...


----------



## jntc

mlaw8 said:


> Guys - I'm having problems after reading everything I can find and playing with each piece and part. I've attached my setup...the first drawing is how I think it should be set up to be working. In this case none of the MoCA devices are making a connection. When I insert the old splitter into the equation (per Phil's from AVSForums advice) I get 2 of the 3 devices working (illustrated in second picture). Apprciate any additional advice/options. I'm waiting for a MoCA filter to add into the equation but they have been slow to get here. Thanks - Mark


Why do you have sat diplexers in there? (Or did you leave out the satellite & connection on the drawing?) (DishTV and locals via UHF?)

Why do you have two actiontec's in there? The Roamio can provide the MoCa network (if connected via ethernet) or one actiontec hanging off the cable modem. In which case, you're wired all wrong.

The 900mhz splitter will probably not allow MoCa to passthrough.

Do you have satellite and cable and UHF Antenna ???

Both your diagrams are most confusing...


----------



## jmpage2

It looks like he has satellite, cable and UHF. His cable layout is crackers.


----------



## jntc

jmpage2 said:


> It looks like he has satellite, cable and UHF. His cable layout is crackers.


Even if he does have all those, the whole thing is just wrong altogether - both of them. And the diplexers are certainly filtering any chance of MoCa to work.

We need a better description of what he is connecting.


----------



## jmpage2

jntc said:


> Even if he does have all those, the whole thing is just wrong altogether - both of them. And the diplexers are certainly filtering any chance of MoCa to work.
> 
> We need a better description of what he is connecting.


I don't disagree but his setup looks overly complicated with numerous things that could cause MoCA to fail.


----------



## Bigg

jmpage2 said:


> It looks like he has satellite, cable and UHF. His cable layout is crackers.


That's completely impossible. I think he's trying to use diplexers to cut the MoCA in and out, but that's totally unnecessary.


----------



## jntc

Bigg said:


> That's completely impossible. I think he's trying to use diplexers to cut the MoCA in and out, but that's totally unnecessary.


I think he did it just to get our goat... notice he hasn't been back.


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## jmpage2

jntc said:


> I think he did it just to get our goat... notice he hasn't been back.


We call that a "hit and run".


----------



## patrickosmith

Attached diagrams shows working configuration with a Tuning Adaptor and MoCA network between Roamio Pro and Mini's via coax. Plus all the miscellaneous connections.

Note use of 2 GHz splitters for the MoCA Network.

Note use of POE to optimize MoCA performance.


----------



## Bigg

patrickosmith said:


> Attached diagrams shows working configuration with a Tuning Adaptor and MoCA network between Roamio Pro and Mini's via coax. Plus all the miscellaneous connections.
> 
> Note use of 2 GHz splitters for the MoCA Network.
> 
> Note use of POE to optimize MoCA performance.


That should work, but it's WAY overthinking it. MoCA is meant to be mixed with everything else, and it doesn't need 2ghz splitters.


----------



## patrickosmith

Well, my config might be more than I need, but, it works, and my "picture tiling glitches" on HD channels have completely ceased. In addition, the cable guys can no longer affect my internal MoCA network which is totally isolated. They can do whatever they want on their 1002-MHz-and-below-splitters and coax without affecting my internal-to-the-home-2-GHz-spltters-and-MoCA coax.

I'd like to test the data rate of my internal MoCA to see what I'm getting. I'm assuming that the 2-GHz splitters enable much higher signal to the Mini than 1-GHz splitters (but I have no idea what the difference in signal loss would be).


----------



## sangs

Here's my questions for the MoCA networking experts.

I have FiOS, but I'm about to dump their flaky Actiontec router for a third-party router, an Apple Airport Extreme. Since all my TVs will be connected via Tivos or Minis, I no longer need the FiOS router. I currently have my Roamio Plus, Roamio Basic and one Mini connected directly via Ethernet. Two other Minis use Actiontec MoCA adapters, connected to them via an Ethernet cable.

When I remove the FiOS router from the equation, will I have to change or add anything to my setup? I'm specifically concerned about the MoCA adapters and whether or not they will continue working correctly. Also, will removing the FiOS router from the equation mean I need to install a POE filter? Thanks in advance.


----------



## tatergator1

Since you have a Roamio Plus connected via Ethernet, you'll be able to use that to create the new MoCA network. You'll have to go into the Roamio's network settings, and change to MoCA+Ethernet. Existing devices should then pick-up MoCA again. You may need to reboot certain devices if you have issues connecting initially.

I'm confused about the 2 Mini's using Actiontec MoCA adapters. The Mini's have built in MoCA and would be able to connect via the Coax directly from the wal with no need for the adapters. 

A POE filter is unnecessary on FiOS, the MoCA signal is can't pass through the ONT, so there's no need for the filter.


----------



## sangs

tatergator1 said:


> I'm confused about the 2 Mini's using Actiontec MoCA adapters. The Mini's have built in MoCA and would be able to connect via the Coax directly from the wal with no need for the adapters.


Oh, yeah, sorry about that. This is my second go-round with this Tivo setup. The first time through, trying to use MoCA for everything, it just wouldn't work correctly. I'd get connection errors and the like. I returned everything within the return window, because I didn't want to get stuck with a dysfunctional setup.

This time, I wanted everything to connect via an Ethernet cable, to see if that made any difference. So I brought the MoCA adapters into the equation and it has worked flawlessly. So that's why the adapters are there.


----------



## Bigg

The MoCA in the minis should work just fine. My setup works fine with three splitters in between (up and back down) the Premiere and the Minis, and they only occasionally glitch.


----------



## sangs

tatergator1 said:


> Since you have a Roamio Plus connected via Ethernet, you'll be able to use that to create the new MoCA network. You'll have to go into the Roamio's network settings, and change to MoCA+Ethernet. Existing devices should then pick-up MoCA again. You may need to reboot certain devices if you have issues connecting initially.
> 
> I'm confused about the 2 Mini's using Actiontec MoCA adapters. The Mini's have built in MoCA and would be able to connect via the Coax directly from the wal with no need for the adapters.
> 
> A POE filter is unnecessary on FiOS, the MoCA signal is can't pass through the ONT, so there's no need for the filter.


And what of the Roamio Basic if I choose this setup? It's currently connected to a bridged router via Ethernet. If I switch to the Roamio Pro creating the MoCA network, will I then need to hook up the Roamio Basic to a MoCA adapter?


----------



## tatergator1

Yes, you'd need a MoCA adapter at the Roamio Basic if you want to take that off Ethernet from the bridged router.


----------



## sangs

tatergator1 said:


> Yes, you'd need a MoCA adapter at the Roamio Basic if you want to take that off Ethernet from the bridged router.


Thanks very much tater. So to summarize:

Roamio Pro - Connect via Ethernet, create a MoCA network;
Roamio Basic - disconnect Ethernet, add MoCA adapter, switch to MoCA connection;
Minis - no need for MoCA adapter, just join Roamio Pro MoCA network through existing coax.

No need for POE, no need for MoCA adapter at the router. That about right?


----------



## tatergator1

sangs said:


> Thanks very much tater. So to summarize:
> 
> Roamio Pro - Connect via Ethernet, create a MoCA network;
> Roamio Basic - disconnect Ethernet, add MoCA adapter, switch to MoCA connection;
> Minis - no need for MoCA adapter, just join Roamio Pro MoCA network through existing coax.
> 
> No need for POE, no need for MoCA adapter at the router. That about right?


Sounds good.


----------



## SnakeEyes

I:

-Will be getting a Roamio Plus that'll use ethernet to my modem's built-in router
-Have a Premiere 4 using Wifi. 
-I'm also considering getting a Mini.

Ultimately it's the Premiere 4 that I want to be talking to the Mini though having both of them talking to the Mini would be a plus.

Can someone let me know what I need to do to make that happen?


----------



## tatergator1

All of those devices support MoCA. You'll want to use the Roamio Plus to create the MoCA network since it'll be connected directly to the router. When setting up the Roamio, the network setup should have an option like "Create a MoCA network" select that and that will create the network. You'll then go to the Premiere 4 and go into it's network settings and change it to connect via MoCA. It should find the network and connect. During Mini setup, you 'll be able to select which TiVo you want to be the host and tell the Mini to use MoCA.


----------



## SOCATivo

I was wondering what the requirements were for frequencies on the coax to successfully achieve a MoCa setup. Here's my situation.

Downstairs, I have an XL4 connected via a 2-way 1005MHz splitter into the cable entry (input) and through a tuning adapter into the XL4 (the other output goes to the cable modem).

Upstairs I seem to have the main cable attached to an amplifier 50-900MHz, with some kind of power inverter three way device in there somehow (I did not install this, Cox did). The output from the amp goes into my Mini.

If I take the amplifier out of the loop, I can get a MoCa connection fine down to the XL4, playback stored programs (but no live TV). Unfortunately, if I do that, the internet stops working. Looks like the amp is in there for that maybe.

I tried moving the amp etc. onto another cable outlet in another room, but no luck. Short of calling out Cox, I was wondering if the 1000MHz was the issue, and look for a similar amp with that bandwidth. Buying one of those should be cheaper than a Cox visit.

Any suggestions? I do think my home coax is more complicated than it needs to be, for some reason there's at least two 3-way splitters in the outside cable box (where the cable comes into the house).

Thanks!


----------



## tarheelblue32

SOCATivo said:


> Any suggestions? I do think my home coax is more complicated than it needs to be, for some reason there's at least two 3-way splitters in the outside cable box (where the cable comes into the house).
> 
> Thanks!


I would suggest that if possible you replace those 3-way splitters with a single 2-way splitter and 4-port amp or just a single 8-port amp.

I originally had an 8-port amp feeding my 4 TVs and a cable modem and it worked pretty well. But I have recently changed it to a 2-way splitter with one line going unamplified to my cable modem and the other line going to a 4-port amp and from the 4 port amp to the 4 TV's in my house. From what I've read, most cable modems tend to work best if they are unamplified in this way as long as the signal is strong enough.


----------



## SOCATivo

tarheelblue32 said:


> I would suggest that if possible you replace those 3-way splitters with a single 2-way splitter and 4-port amp or just a single 8-port amp.
> 
> I originally had an 8-port amp feeding my 4 TVs and a cable modem and it worked pretty well. But I have recently changed it to a 2-way splitter with one line going unamplified to my cable modem and the other line going to a 4-port amp and from the 4 port amp to the 4 TV's in my house. From what I've read, most cable modems tend to work best if they are unamplified in this way as long as the signal is strong enough.


Yes, but the problem is those 6 cables go somewhere and I don't know where. There's 6 cable points in the house and I only use 4. Plus, I didn't make it clear that the amp upstairs is a 4 port unit but only one input and output (plus the power inverter input). I don't even know why it's there or how it amplifies or affects (presumably) the signal to cable modem.

I'm not an expert on cable TV . I was hoping if it's a simple issue of bandwidth just replace the stupid amp upstairs and forget about it.


----------



## Bigg

SOCATivo said:


> Upstairs I seem to have the main cable attached to an amplifier 50-900MHz, with some kind of power inverter three way device in there somehow (I did not install this, Cox did). The output from the amp goes into my Mini.


I can't quite follow your setup... If the amp can't pass MoCA, you need a new amp, or if it has enough power, have everything with MoCA on a splitter downstream of the amp.

Modems can work fine through an amp, my parents have one that's been running that way for years.


----------



## SOCATivo

Bigg said:


> I can't quite follow your setup... If the amp can't pass MoCA, you need a new amp, or if it has enough power, have everything with MoCA on a splitter downstream of the amp.
> 
> Modems can work fine through an amp, my parents have one that's been running that way for years.


I'm fine with getting a new amp. Just wondered if it was definitely the 50-900MHz causing the issue. I think it is. I will buy a new one and post results.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

SOCATivo said:


> I'm fine with getting a new amp. Just wondered if it was definitely the 50-900MHz causing the issue. I think it is. I will buy a new one and post results.


There's a decent chance the 900 MHz limit is blocking the moca, yeah. A bi-directional 1000+ MHz unit would be better.


----------



## SOCATivo

I fixed the problem (well, the cable guy did).

There were two amps, a booster in the room and something which powered another amp in the outside wall cavity where the cables came into the house. When I removed the in-room amp, the power was cut to the second, making it act like a choke and cutting off all RF into the house.

We simplified the cabling in the house and routing, and put a new power supply back to the in wall amp, and all works again.

My situation for some reason had got so complicated (and this was probably done 6-8 years ago) that it took Kevin the cable guy (10/10 for knowledge and willingness to help - thanks Cox!) to sort it out.

Now my XL4 and Mini are working great. Next is to see if I can get my XBMC PC next to the Mini. I think I need some kind of Moca/Ethernet hub for that as I'll need Ethernet there.


----------



## Bigg

SOCATivo said:


> I fixed the problem (well, the cable guy did).
> 
> There were two amps, a booster in the room and something which powered another amp in the outside wall cavity where the cables came into the house. When I removed the in-room amp, the power was cut to the second, making it act like a choke and cutting off all RF into the house.
> 
> We simplified the cabling in the house and routing, and put a new power supply back to the in wall amp, and all works again.
> 
> My situation for some reason had got so complicated (and this was probably done 6-8 years ago) that it took Kevin the cable guy (10/10 for knowledge and willingness to help - thanks Cox!) to sort it out.
> 
> Now my XL4 and Mini are working great. Next is to see if I can get my XBMC PC next to the Mini. I think I need some kind of Moca/Ethernet hub for that as I'll need Ethernet there.


Good! That sounds a little scary though... an in-wall amp? How do you get to it if it breaks?

You can just get a regular MoCA adapter and an ethernet switch.


----------



## Bigg

Also, you'd only need the switch if you want to plug in more than one Ethernet device.


----------



## SOCATivo

Bigg said:


> Also, you'd only need the switch if you want to plug in more than one Ethernet device.


Which I might. These projects have a habit of growing .


----------



## Bigg

SOCATivo said:


> Which I might. These projects have a habit of growing .


Nice. Then grab one off Amazon or Newegg for $30. Amazing how cheap they are now.


----------



## lnardinelli6

Help, please please. I'm good with IP and cat 6 but lost in the coax world. Please check my MOCA drawing for Roamio (4 turner without MOCA bridge) and Mini. Is it right?

Two questions:
1. Would it be better to use a four-way splitter to allow the cable modem to be directly connected (so that traffic between the LAN and Internet didn't have to go through the MOCA bridge). I'm using the Actiontec bridge. Is it a potential network throttle point if placed upstream from the cable modem and my Router?
2. The 130' run to the Mini: The RG6 is good, but it has one barrel connector outside. Is this likely to work OK or will I probably need an amplifier?

Thanks


----------



## sangs

lnardinelli6 said:


> Help, please please. I'm good with IP and cat 6 but lost in the coax world. Please check my MOCA drawing for Roamio (4 turner without MOCA bridge) and Mini. Is it right?
> 
> Two questions:
> 1. Would it be better to use a four-way splitter to allow the cable modem to be directly connected (so that traffic between the LAN and Internet didn't have to go through the MOCA bridge). I'm using the Actiontec bridge. Is it a potential network throttle point if placed upstream from the cable modem and my Router?
> 2. The 130' run to the Mini: The RG6 is good, but it has one barrel connector outside. Is this likely to work OK or will I probably need an amplifier?
> 
> Thanks


I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you need a MoCA adapter directly connected to (at least) one of the Roamio Basics, as it doesn't have one built in like the Roamio Plus & Pro.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

As long as the barrel connector is rated for at least 1000 MHz, it should be fine. *IF* there's a signal problem, make sure the amp is also rated for bi-directional 1000Mhz (at least). But that's likely unnecessary since moca has a 300 foot range.

Is the moca network for the Mini only? (the diagram labels two 4-tuner Roamios so I'm assuming the 130 foot run is actually a Mini and was just mislabeled.)

But as shown, it should work fine. If the cable modem service interfered with by the moca adapter, inserting another POE between them should resolve it.


----------



## tatergator1

BigJimOutlaw said:


> But as shown, it should work fine. If the cable modem service interfered with by the moca adapter, inserting another POE between them should resolve it.


Interference with the Cable Modem is unlikely, and if there was a problem with the modem after setup, it would not be because of the MoCA frequencies. The Coax Out port on Actiontec adapters does not pass on the MoCA signal, so the Cable Modem is already protected from the additional MoCA frequencies.


----------



## lnardinelli6

tatergator1 said:


> Interference with the Cable Modem is unlikely, and if there was a problem with the modem after setup, it would not be because of the MoCA frequencies. The Coax Out port on Actiontec adapters does not pass on the MoCA signal, so the Cable Modem is already protected from the additional MoCA frequencies.


Thanks so much all! I'm set.


----------



## mmaben

Confused ! I have a Roamio Plus and a mini in the bedroom. I have them both set up but they don't see each other over moca. I have to access the internet via my Netgear wireless router and the RP works fine. When I choose 'use this device for moca' so I can use the mini, it disconnects from wireless. Everything I'm reading says they should talk to each other over coax (without ethernet ?) but they don't (error C33). Do I need a moca adapter at the RP ? I had to take the modem and router into the bedroom to get the mini loaded (included the upgrade) via ethernet but now it won't connect with the RP.
heeelllp!!


----------



## tatergator1

In order for the Roamio Plus to create a MoCA network, you must be able to connect it directly to your router via Ethernet. If that's not possible due to being in different rooms, you'll need to install a MoCA adapter at your router.


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## mmaben

So, you mean it has to remain hard wired ? Even after the network is 'created' ?


----------



## jmpage2

mmaben said:


> So, you mean it has to remain hard wired ? Even after the network is 'created' ?


Yes. I think you might be misunderstanding how the bridging function works.

For the RP to be the MoCA "head end" and create a MoCA network it must be connected to wired ethernet, not wifi.

If you can't easily do this then buy a MoCA adapter, connect it via ethernet at the router and have the RP and Mini both be MoCA clients from that device (the RP will no longer be connected to wifi).


----------



## tatergator1

Yes. The Roamio must remain hard wired if you're using it to create the MoCA network for the Mini.


----------



## Bigg

The Roamio Plus can't bridge Wifi to MoCA? That seems like a really stupid design...


----------



## lessd

Bigg said:


> The Roamio Plus can't bridge Wifi to MoCA? That seems like a really stupid design...


TiVo does not want any WiFi used in streaming, I not saying with a good home network you can't do good streaming, but TiVo had too many home network problems with streaming so they went to MoCA or direct RJ45 only. Some people have gotten around this by using their own WiFi bridge that has a RJ45 output.


----------



## mmaben

jmpage2 said:


> Yes. I think you might be misunderstanding how the bridging function works.


Oh trust me, there's plenty here I don't understand 

I 'think' I have it figgered out now but it's amazing how tivo markets this to the general public with the info they do. Their instructions for setting up a moca network says "If you have an Ethernet connection accessible to your Roamio Plus/Pro or Premiere 4/XL4/Elite, you can use the DVR's built-in MoCA network adapter to turn your home network into a MoCA network! " Makes it sound like there's already a moca adapter built in to the RP. Great ! I don't need to go buy one ! It kinda makes sense once you figure it out but what a hair pulling experience if you're not an IT tech type (like you guys  ).

So, I'll take my netgear 6300 (now between the modem and computer in my office) into the living room, ethernet to my RP (do I need the modem too ?), create a moca network, take it back to the office, buy a moca adapter, install it at the router (do I need to reconfigure the RP for wireless ?), and I should be good to go ???
I'll also stick a poe filter at the splitter outside (heard that helps :up: )


----------



## HarperVision

mmaben said:


> ......Their instructions for setting up a moca network says "If you have an Ethernet connection accessible to your Roamio Plus/Pro or Premiere 4/XL4/Elite, you can use the DVR's built-in MoCA network adapter to turn your home network into a MoCA network! " Makes it sound like there's already a moca adapter built in to the RP..........


 I think you're still a little confused. There *IS* moca built into the Roamio plus and pro and you *CAN* bridge it to your Ethernet network creating a moca network without needed an adapter. They're just telling you that the Ethernet signal source that you're using to modulate to the moca signal needs to be a wired one, not wifi. So if your Roamio plus/pro isn't co located with a wired Ethernet signal, then you either must move your Roamio to the wired Ethernet, or move your modem/router combo to the Roamio, or as it seems you're doing, buy a different moca adapter (because the one built into your Roamio can't be used due to location).


mmaben said:


> ........So, I'll take my netgear 6300 (now between the modem and computer in my office) into the living room, ethernet to my RP (do I need the modem too ?), create a moca network, take it back to the office, buy a moca adapter, install it at the router (do I need to reconfigure the RP for wireless ?), and I should be good to go ??? I'll also stick a poe filter at the splitter outside (heard that helps :up: )


 the only thing you'd have to do if you buy a moca adapter because you can't use the one built into the Roamio is the last half of that (buy a moca adapter and install it at the router, as long as there's also a coax connection there, which there probably is for your cable modem)


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

mmaben said:


> So, I'll take my netgear 6300 (now between the modem and computer in my office) into the living room, ethernet to my RP (do I need the modem too ?), create a moca network, take it back to the office, buy a moca adapter, install it at the router (do I need to reconfigure the RP for wireless ?), and I should be good to go ???


Very simply, there are 2 ways to create a moca network:

1. Connect the RP via ethernet and tell it to create a moca network.

2. If an ethernet run to the RP is not practical, connect a moca adapter to the router to create the moca network.

Your option is #2. You don't need to move your router. Just buy a moca adapter and connect it to your router as illustrated in the first post of this thread. This will create the moca network.

Then in the RP and Mini's network settings, select MoCA for both. (Do not select "Use this DVR to create...").


----------



## Loach

I think some people get confused about MoCA because they don't understand that you need the MoCA bridge to be a *permanent physical link* between your Ethernet network and your coaxial cable.

MoCA is just a way to extend your Ethernet network into your coaxial cable plant. Sometimes people seem to think that creating a MoCA network is something like a firmware update where you hook up the MoCA adapter to the router and coax, that "creates the MoCA network" and then you can remove the bridge. You can't! You have to maintain a permanent physical link between the router and the coax.

That permanent link can be made via a Tivo DVR with built-in MoCA, such as Premiere 4 or XL4 (but not a 2-tuner Premiere) or a Roamio Pro or Plus (but not a base Roamio). Or the link can be made using a MoCA adapter.

In my setup, although I have two Tivo DVRs that COULD serve as MoCA bridges to create the MoCA network, I cannot use them to do so because neither one is anywhere near an Ethernet connection point in my home. So instead, I'm using an Actiontec MoCA adapter to create the permanent, physical link between my Ethernet network and my Coax plant. For me, that's located in my basement utility room, where I have both an Ethernet switch that's connected to my router, and all my home runs of coax.


----------



## SOCATivo

Bigg said:


> Nice. Then grab one off Amazon or Newegg for $30. Amazing how cheap they are now.


Thanks for all the help! I now have my system working the way I want, and 3 spare ethernet ports for my XBMC and anything else!

I got a secondhand Verizon cable modem, turned off most of the capability and used is as a Moca switch. It has 4 ethernet ports. Total cost about $20 on eBay!

(Edit: BTW the in-wall amp I mentioned earlier is actually in the outside cable box, easy enough to get to).


----------



## mmaben

HarperVision said:


> I think you're still a little confused. There *IS* moca built into the Roamio plus and pro and you *CAN* bridge it to your Ethernet network creating a moca network without needed an adapter.


Well there definitely 'is' a language barrier here. When non tech people see that this device has it's own moca adapter and it's own router, they assume they have everything they need built in to set up a lan. You don't find out you need another doohickey unless you dig deeper online. I went to Bestbuy to get a moca adapter last night and the kids there had never heard of them. They don't sell them in store so I ordered one from the tivo store (cheaper anyway).

So, thank you all very much for your help, who knows how much time and hair I would have lost trying to figure this out on my own but I thot I would ask here before calling TS. 
p.s. this forum needs a hair pulling icon


----------



## Bigg

lessd said:


> TiVo does not want any WiFi used in streaming, I not saying with a good home network you can't do good streaming, but TiVo had too many home network problems with streaming so they went to MoCA or direct RJ45 only. Some people have gotten around this by using their own WiFi bridge that has a RJ45 output.


Then why is Wifi included in the Roamio? But not for the connected Minis? No matter which way you look at it, there is a logic fail in there.



SOCATivo said:


> Thanks for all the help! I now have my system working the way I want, and 3 spare ethernet ports for my XBMC and anything else!
> 
> I got a secondhand Verizon cable modem, turned off most of the capability and used is as a Moca switch. It has 4 ethernet ports. Total cost about $20 on eBay!


Cool. You mean MoCA router? Those aren't really the modems, just a bridge in from the modem in the ONT.



mmaben said:


> Well there definitely 'is' a language barrier here. When non tech people see that this device has it's own moca adapter and it's own router, they assume they have everything they need built in to set up a lan. You don't find out you need another doohickey unless you dig deeper online. I went to Bestbuy to get a moca adapter last night and the kids there had never heard of them. They don't sell them in store so I ordered one from the tivo store (cheaper anyway).


It is designed to have everything you need, you just run Ethernet directly from your router to your TiVo Roamio. Obviously, this won't cover setups where you can't get an Ethernet line between them, but this is the idea with the built-in MoCA.

Why is everyone so confused about MoCA? It's not that hard. It's just another physical medium for Ethernet to run over. We've seen in the past coax (10Base2) and phone lines (HPNA), and today, we can use electrical wiring (HomeplugAV), wireless, Cat-5e/6, or cable TV coax (MoCA). All have various advantages and disadvantages, but they all fundamentally run an IP network over something. Basically everyone has some ethernet, I happen to have ethernet, ABGN900 wireless, HomeplugAV, and MoCA. I would replace the HomeplugAV connection with MoCA or Wifi, but I'm too cheap/lazy and I had the adapters sitting around.


----------



## SOCATivo

Bigg said:


> Cool. You mean MoCA router? Those aren't really the modems, just a bridge in from the modem in the ONT.


No, it's actually a Verizon cable modem which has MoCA capability. It has a WAN port (unused, as I am not connecting this to the WAN), four ethernet ports and a WiFi capability (I use to extend the signal of my WiFi - just a bonus).

Here's a link to the documentation if you're interested.

http://onlinehelp.verizon.net/consumer/bin/pdf/Vz9100EM_user_guide.pdf

Edit - model number is 9100EM, you can Google.


----------



## lessd

Bigg said:


> Then why is Wifi included in the Roamio? But not for the connected Minis? No matter which way you look at it, there is a logic fail in there.


I may be hard to believe, but some people just have one Roamio and don't care about streaming, they just use the built in WiFi and they are good to go, if they get a 2nd Roamio they can still xfer the programs between them without using streaming. The WiFi is not useful on any Roamio that you want connected to a Mini. 
It may be of some interest as to how many people on this Forum do not stream and use just the built in WiFi, the number would much smaller than the general public it think.


----------



## Bigg

SOCATivo said:


> No, it's actually a Verizon cable modem which has MoCA capability. It has a WAN port (unused, as I am not connecting this to the WAN), four ethernet ports and a WiFi capability (I use to extend the signal of my WiFi - just a bonus).
> 
> Here's a link to the documentation if you're interested.
> 
> http://onlinehelp.verizon.net/consumer/bin/pdf/Vz9100EM_user_guide.pdf
> 
> Edit - model number is 9100EM, you can Google.


That is NOT a modem. The "modem" is basically the ONT. That's just a router that takes MoCA WAN and routes it to ethernet, Wifi, and MoCA LAN. Verizon provides cable TV, but not internet. The internet is handled by the ONT.



lessd said:


> I may be hard to believe, but some people just have one Roamio and don't care about streaming, they just use the built in WiFi and they are good to go, if they get a 2nd Roamio they can still xfer the programs between them without using streaming. The WiFi is not useful on any Roamio that you want connected to a Mini.
> It may be of some interest as to how many people on this Forum do not stream and use just the built in WiFi, the number would much smaller than the general public it think.


That's surprising. It should have plenty of bandwidth to handle the internet connectivity to a Roamio/Mini setup if they allowed it. I have a Premiere/Mini setup, and I don't stream anything. Mine ends up going through a PowerLine AV500 (plus a couple of switches) to get back to my router, and that's quite a bit slower than Wifi (~20mbps on Powerline AV500, ~100mbps on Wifi).


----------



## SOCATivo

Bigg said:


> That's surprising. It should have plenty of bandwidth to handle the internet connectivity to a Roamio/Mini setup if they allowed it. I have a Premiere/Mini setup, and I don't stream anything. Mine ends up going through a PowerLine AV500 (plus a couple of switches) to get back to my router, and that's quite a bit slower than Wifi (~20mbps on Powerline AV500, ~100mbps on Wifi).


Precisely the reason I went to MoCa was because my AV500's wouldn't cut it. I guess it depends on the wiring path and whatever else is providing noise within your electrics.


----------



## Bigg

SOCATivo said:


> Precisely the reason I went to MoCa was because my AV500's wouldn't cut it. I guess it depends on the wiring path and whatever else is providing noise within your electrics.


Yeah, AV500 is so erratic that it makes Wifi look reliable! I just had the adapters laying around from an apartment that I had before, so I used them. I should really just get a pair of MoCA adapters or even better, a Wifi AC router/bridge, but I'm too cheap. The thing is, 20mbps on the AV500 is fast enough for HD streaming downstairs, but even AC isn't really fast enough for moving files around, so I don't see too much benefit for my own use. Some day, I will own my own house, and I will be able to do it the right way and hard wire CAT-6 everywhere...


----------



## neo_ny

Hi Everyone,

I am trying to get MoCa to work so that I can use a Mini with my Roamio basic. Since I have FIOS I believe I need only one MoCa adapter to make this work but I haven't been able to get it to work yet. Can someone please comment on what I am doing wrong? The connection I have is as follows:

i) Coax from wall to COAX IN port on MoCa adapter (bought it from Tivo)
ii) Coax from TV/STB port on MoCa adapter to coax in on my FIOS modem/router
iii) Ethernet from MoCa adapter to FIOS modem/router
iv) Ethernet from FIOS modem/router to Roamio
v) Coax from wall to coax in on Roamio

When I do this everything works on my Roamio box but the mini is unable to connect via MoCa.

Can someone please comment if I have the setup right for this work?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## tarheelblue32

neo_ny said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I am trying to get MoCa to work so that I can use a Mini with my Roamio basic. Since I have FIOS I believe I need only one MoCa adapter to make this work but I haven't been able to get it to work yet. Can someone please comment on what I am doing wrong? The connection I have is as follows:
> 
> i) Coax from wall to COAX IN port on MoCa adapter (bought it from Tivo)
> ii) Coax from TV/STB port on MoCa adapter to coax in on my FIOS modem/router
> iii) Ethernet from MoCa adapter to FIOS modem/router
> iv) Ethernet from FIOS modem/router to Roamio
> v) Coax from wall to coax in on Roamio
> 
> When I do this everything works on my Roamio box but the mini is unable to connect via MoCa.
> 
> Can someone please comment if I have the setup right for this work?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I don't have FIOS, so someone please correct me if I am wrong. But I think the FIOS modem/router has MoCA built in, so if you have your Roamio directly connected to your FIOS router with ethernet, then I don't think you need a MoCA adapter at all. If the Roamio is connected to the FIOS modem with ethernet cable, and the FIOS modem is connected via coax cable to your house's coax network, and the mini is connected via coax cable to your house's coax network, it should work. So try removing that extra MoCA adapter from the mix and see if it works.


----------



## lapdog12

BigJimOutlaw said:


> *Tuning Adapters:*
> 
> If your Tivo setup requires a Tuning Adapter supplied by the cableco, the below image shows the recommended setup to allow the tuning adapter and MoCA network to co-exist.
> 
> If you are using a Tuning Adapter with a Tivo that needs a MoCA adapter, the MoCA adapter should be inserted on the splitter's coax leg that is going to the Tivo's Cable-In.
> 
> In other words, from the Splitter:
> - 1 line goes to the Tuning Adapter, then connect the TA to the Tivo's USB port. Don't use the TA's RF-Out.
> - The other line goes to the MoCA Adapter, and then the ethernet and RF-out go to the Tivo.


I'm sorry for the noob question but I have a roamio pro and I've just ordered a mini to add in another room. My roamio pro is hooked up directly via Ethernet so I won't need a moca adapter but i have a tuning adapter. I'm a little confused by the diagram. If I don't use the RF OUT on the TA how does it "tune in the channels"? I guess I don't really understand how a TA works. I thought it's "tunes" the channels as in the channel changes happen through that device. I'm sorry for what could be a basic question but I want to make sure I set this up correctly when I get all the pieces in.

Thanks for any tips and advice.


----------



## tarheelblue32

lapdog12 said:


> I'm sorry for the noob question but I have a roamio pro and I've just ordered a mini to add in another room. My roamio pro is hooked up directly via Ethernet so I won't need a moca adapter but i have a tuning adapter. I'm a little confused by the diagram. If I don't use the RF OUT on the TA how does it "tune in the channels"? I guess I don't really understand how a TA works. I thought it's "tunes" the channels as in the channel changes happen through that device. I'm sorry for what could be a basic question but I want to make sure I set this up correctly when I get all the pieces in.
> 
> Thanks for any tips and advice.


The tuning adapter doesn't actually "tune" the channel in the traditional sense. The tuners are located in the Roamio not the tuning adapter. The tuning adapter just sends the signal out to request that a SDV channel be sent through. Once that channel is being sent through, it is tuned in by the Roamio in the same way that any other non-SDV channel is tuned.

The only communication that takes place between the Roamio and the tuning adapter is through the USB cable. That's why the RF out port on the tuning adapter isn't needed, because absolutely no communication between the 2 devices takes place through the coax. If you aren't using MoCA, then you can use the RF output rather than a cable splitter if you'd like. But if you are using MoCA, then you need to use the splitter instead of the pass-though, as the RF pass-through on the tuning adapter will most likely interfere with MoCA signals.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

neo_ny said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I am trying to get MoCa to work so that I can use a Mini with my Roamio basic. Since I have FIOS I believe I need only one MoCa adapter to make this work but I haven't been able to get it to work yet. Can someone please comment on what I am doing wrong? The connection I have is as follows:
> 
> i) Coax from wall to COAX IN port on MoCa adapter (bought it from Tivo)
> ii) Coax from TV/STB port on MoCa adapter to coax in on my FIOS modem/router
> iii) Ethernet from MoCa adapter to FIOS modem/router
> iv) Ethernet from FIOS modem/router to Roamio
> v) Coax from wall to coax in on Roamio
> 
> When I do this everything works on my Roamio box but the mini is unable to connect via MoCa.
> 
> Can someone please comment if I have the setup right for this work?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


The FiOS router has moca support built-in. You don't need the adapter at the router. That's creating the problem. Remove it.  That alone should fix everything.

If your Roamio basic is connected to the router by ethernet, you don't need a moca adapter at all. You only need the moca adapter if you can't or would rather not use ethernet for its connection. You can choose ethernet or moca, but it's not necessary to use both in your case.

If you do choose to use moca for the Roamio basic's connection, remove its ethernet connection to the router and install the moca adapter to the coax behind the Roamio as shown below. Then everything -- Roamio and Mini -- will connect to the moca network coming from your Fios router.


----------



## neo_ny

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The FiOS router has moca support built-in. You don't need the adapter at the router. That's creating the problem. Remove it.  That alone should fix everything.
> 
> If your Roamio basic is connected to the router by ethernet, you don't need a moca adapter at all. You only need the moca adapter if you can't or would rather not use ethernet for its connection. You can choose ethernet or moca, but it's not necessary to use both in your case.
> 
> If you do choose to use moca for the Roamio basic's connection, remove its ethernet connection to the router and install the moca adapter to the coax behind the Roamio as shown below. Then everything -- Roamio and Mini -- will connect to the moca network coming from your Fios router.


Thank you everyone for your input!

If indeed I don't need an adapter I wasted $$ by ordering them from TiVo! I checked with the TiVo support and they mentioned I would need atleast one (two if my router was not MoCa enabled). I am going to give it a try later today without the adapter and see if that takes care of it!


----------



## tatergator1

neo_ny said:


> If indeed I don't need an adapter I wasted $$ by ordering them from TiVo! I checked with the TiVo support and they mentioned I would need atleast one (two if my router was not MoCa enabled).


It's likely the Tivo representative was confused or misunderstood that you would connect the Roamio Basic directly to your router via Ethernet. If Ethernet wasn't available for the Roamio Basic, you would have needed the one MoCA adapter.


----------



## neo_ny

tatergator1 said:


> It's likely the Tivo representative was confused or misunderstood that you would connect the Roamio Basic directly to your router via Ethernet. If Ethernet wasn't available for the Roamio Basic, you would have needed the one MoCA adapter.


Maybe .. hopefully I will be able to return them if I don't need them! Is connection via MoCa adapter preferred over direct ethernet or vice versa? Any other considerations I need to take into account? TIA


----------



## tarheelblue32

neo_ny said:


> Maybe .. hopefully I will be able to return them if I don't need them! Is connection via MoCa adapter preferred over direct ethernet or vice versa? Any other considerations I need to take into account? TIA


Ethernet is best, but MoCA usually works well as long as your coax wiring is good. You could keep the extra MoCA adapter as a backup, in case you ever decide to move the Roamio away from the router, or in case the built-in MoCA adapter on the Mini craps out, or if you ever want to hard wire any other internet devices via MoCA rather than doing WiFi.


----------



## lapdog12

tarheelblue32 said:


> The tuning adapter doesn't actually "tune" the channel in the traditional sense. The tuners are located in the Roamio not the tuning adapter. The tuning adapter just sends the signal out to request that a SDV channel be sent through. Once that channel is being sent through, it is tuned in by the Roamio in the same way that any other non-SDV channel is tuned.
> 
> The only communication that takes place between the Roamio and the tuning adapter is through the USB cable. That's why the RF out port on the tuning adapter isn't needed, because absolutely no communication between the 2 devices takes place through the coax. If you aren't using MoCA, then you can use the RF output rather than a cable splitter if you'd like. But if you are using MoCA, then you need to use the splitter instead of the pass-though, as the RF pass-through on the tuning adapter will most likely interfere with MoCA signals.


now i get it. thanks so much for this response.


----------



## lapdog12

I tried to hook up my mini today and i put my roamio pro to be used as a moca bridge. i check the network status and it says my link status is down and my mini won't connect to the internet via the moca bridge, but it will connect with an ethernet cable (tested in the same room as base tivo, but i don't have an ethernet connection at the location of the mini).

what can i do? i have set it up exactly like suggested and I'm using the proper splitters.

any advice or suggestions would be great thanks.

EDIT: I've taken off the POE filter and it works. I don't have access to put one on where it comes into my apartment, so I'm not sure what to do. Every place I put it inside my place the connection is lost to my mini.


----------



## tarheelblue32

lapdog12 said:


> EDIT: I've taken off the POE filter and it works. I don't have access to put one on where it comes into my apartment, so I'm not sure what to do. Every place I put it inside my place the connection is lost to my mini.


Then just don't use it.

Alternatively, you could try calling up your cable company and telling them what you want to do and see if they'll send out a tech to give you access to where you need to install the filter.


----------



## lapdog12

tarheelblue32 said:


> Then just don't use it.
> 
> Alternatively, you could try calling up your cable company and telling them what you want to do and see if they'll send out a tech to give you access to where you need to install the filter.


Ok, I won't use it for now but I may use your suggestion and calling them to have a tech come and set it up.

Thanks.


----------



## ncfoster

lapdog12 said:


> EDIT: I've taken off the POE filter and it works. I don't have access to put one on where it comes into my apartment, so I'm not sure what to do. Every place I put it inside my place the connection is lost to my mini.


So, I'm no expert on PoE filters, but where exactly ARE you putting it, if it isn't at the point of entry? While there are other possible locations to put it for other purposes, mostly where tuning adapters are concerned, I think almost by definition, any other location in a standard setup is going to cause connection issues.


----------



## lapdog12

ncfoster said:


> So, I'm no expert on PoE filters, but where exactly ARE you putting it, if it isn't at the point of entry? While there are other possible locations to put it for other purposes, mostly where tuning adapters are concerned, I think almost by definition, any other location in a standard setup is going to cause connection issues.


I put it before the splitter that feeds my cable modem. i put it on the feed that goes to the mini and i put it on the feed to the splitter to my TA and roamio.

I also have 3 POE filters given to me by a TWC installer I saw on the street and asked if he would give me some and he did.

Everywhere I put it broke the connection to my mini. my internet in the house and to the roamio pro would work but i would lose communication with the mini. when it's off, i have no problem.

i may have to call TWC and see if they would send someone out to put a filter on the line before it comes into my apartment. it's in a locked box so i can't access it.


----------



## Headford

A Point of Entry (POE) filter really needs to be installed at the point-of-entry. It is designed to block signals in the range that MoCA operates (I think it is in the range of about 850Mhz to 1.5 Ghz, but I haven't looked it up) such that you don't expose your home network to the outside via the internal MoCA network you have setup.

Putting a POE filter right in front of a Mini guarantees that the Mini won't work! You have blocked the MoCA network signal from entering the Mini over the coax cable.

If you cannot get to the POE, try to find a place to install a POE filter where it is the signal path before the MoCA bridge (probably the Roamio Plus/Pro) and another in front of your cable modem. Think it through to make sure there is no cable connection to the outside world that doesn't have a POE in front of its signal path. Ideally, you can get to the POE and use only one filter.

You can also enter a MoCA encryption key number of your own choosing in each MoCA enabled device as an additional layer of security.


----------



## lapdog12

Headford said:


> I tried to put a filter just before my Roamio Pro (i have a TA so I have a splitter that feeds my pro and TA), that didn't work. I have a coax that comes into my room and it has a splitter, one feed to my roamio pro and TA and one to my modem. I put it on the single feed side (before the splitter) and also tried to put it on the feed that goes to my roamio but I didn't put one on the feed the goes to my modem.
> 
> I unfortunately can't get to where everything splits off to the different apartments to put in a POE filter there.
> 
> It's a small apartment building with 12 units. I don't think any one has moca or a whole home DVR in this building. I've been going without a filter like someone suggested and I've had no problems so far, but I'm not sure if it's affecting anyone else in the building.
> 
> Thanks for all the tips and tricks.


----------



## neo_ny

tarheelblue32 said:


> I don't have FIOS, so someone please correct me if I am wrong. But I think the FIOS modem/router has MoCA built in, so if you have your Roamio directly connected to your FIOS router with ethernet, then I don't think you need a MoCA adapter at all. If the Roamio is connected to the FIOS modem with ethernet cable, and the FIOS modem is connected via coax cable to your house's coax network, and the mini is connected via coax cable to your house's coax network, it should work. So try removing that extra MoCA adapter from the mix and see if it works.


Yes that worked, I didn't need the adapter at all! Having it in the setup was causing issues!


----------



## neo_ny

tatergator1 said:


> It's likely the Tivo representative was confused or misunderstood that you would connect the Roamio Basic directly to your router via Ethernet. If Ethernet wasn't available for the Roamio Basic, you would have needed the one MoCA adapter.


the funny thing is I was told I need two adapters not one! I am sitting with two adapters when infact I needed none!


----------



## tarheelblue32

neo_ny said:


> the funny thing is I was told I need two adapters not one! I am sitting with two adapters when infact I needed none!


Yeah, that's a product of you being on FIOS with MoCA built into the FIOS router. Had you been on a regular cable company's network and not been able to plug the Roamio into the router with an ethernet cable, you would have needed 2 adapters, 1 for your Roamio and 1 for your internet router.


----------



## DJQuad

So I guess since Comcast supplies a great deal of us with ****ty TG862G modems, MoCA is not an option? See http://customer.comcast.com/help-and-support/internet/wireless-gateway-compare


----------



## tarheelblue32

DJQuad said:


> So I guess since Comcast supplies a great deal of us with ****ty TG862G modems, MoCA is not an option? See http://customer.comcast.com/help-and-support/internet/wireless-gateway-compare


MoCA is always an option regardless of what cable modem/router/gateway you have. Just buy a MoCA adapter to sit at your modem/router/gateway.


----------



## DJQuad

tarheelblue32 said:


> MoCA is always an option regardless of what cable modem/router/gateway you have. Just buy a MoCA adapter to sit at your modem/router/gateway.


Oh so if the modem supports MoCA I wouldn't need an adapter? Makes sense.


----------



## tarheelblue32

DJQuad said:


> Oh so if the modem supports MoCA I wouldn't need an adapter? Makes sense.


Exactly. Most modems don't support MoCA, which is why you usually need a MoCA adapter. But the FIOS modem supports MoCA, which is why you don't need the adapter if you have FIOS. Not only do you not need a separate MoCA adapter if you have FIOS, but if you try to use a MoCA adapter with a FIOS modem with built-in MoCA, they can actually interfere with each other and cause all kinds of problems.


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## aaronwt

FiOS doesn't use any modems. They just have a router that connects to the Optical Network Terminal.

You can still use MoCA in addition to the MoCA the FiOS router uses. You just need to make sure it is using different frequencies if you want a separate MoCA network on the same coaxial cable.

The TiVos have eight different MoCA channels to choose from.


----------



## tarheelblue32

aaronwt said:


> FiOS doesn't use any modems. They just have a router that connects to the Optical Network Terminal.


Actually, it's technically a gateway, as it combines functions of a modem and router into one device. But for the purposes of this discussion, I was using the terms modem/router/gateway interchangeably. As there is only 1 device with FiOS, there really isn't any confusion when using the terms interchangeably when talking about FiOS. Even Verizon itself appears to use the terms interchangeably on their website:

http://www.verizon.com/smallbusiness/products/business-FiOS-Internet/FiOS-equipment/


----------



## CoxInPHX

I was doing some testing last night for a friend, and I decided to switch the Mini to use MoCA and bridge the Ethernet on the Roamio.

I split the incoming Coax to the TA and Roamio Pro (I usually use the RF pass-through which will not pass MoCA)
Turned on Ethernet + MoCA 
Connected the Mini to the Coax only and changed the Network configuration to use MoCA.

The Tuning Adapter immediately started failing the tuning requests of SDV channels. The channels would briefly display but immediately I was presented with the Select to View this channel message, which did not bring the channel back.

The Cox Cisco TA install sheet shows using a MoCA POE filter before the TA, I never understood why. I assume the excess noise caused by the MoCA was causing the TA to fail.
http://media.cox.com/support/print_...er_guides/cable_box/InstallingYourCiscoTA.pdf

After placing the POE filter on the TA, the TA started working again as normal.

Has anyone seen this? or is anyone using a MoCA POE filter on their TA?


----------



## nooneuknow

CoxInPHX said:


> I was doing some testing last night for a friend, and I decided to switch the Mini to use MoCA and bridge the Ethernet on the Roamio.
> 
> I split the incoming Coax to the TA and Roamio Pro (I usually use the RF pass-through which will not pass MoCA)
> Turned on Ethernet + MoCA
> Connected the Mini to the Coax only and changed the Network configuration to use MoCA.
> 
> The Tuning Adapter immediately started failing the tuning requests of SDV channels. The channels would briefly display but immediately I was presented with the Select to View this channel message, which did not bring the channel back.
> 
> The Cox Cisco TA install sheet shows using a MoCA POE filter before the TA, I never understood why. I assume the excess noise caused by the MoCA was causing the TA to fail.
> http://media.cox.com/support/print_...er_guides/cable_box/InstallingYourCiscoTA.pdf
> 
> After placing the POE filter on the TA, the TA started working again as normal.
> 
> Has anyone seen this? or is anyone using a MoCA POE filter on their TA?


Yes. While I was trying out some Moca devices, just to see how MoCA worked, the Cisco TAs were completely rendered flaky by the MoCA.

It's not a matter of the Cisco TAs just not being able to pass the MoCA through the internal amp and whatnot, they just can't handle MoCA signals. They should have been designed with a built-in MoCA filter, but either were not, or it's just not working.

I thought you were "in the know on this"... 

Cox doesn't include MoCA filters with the self-install kits, as a "just in case", or by "assuming MoCA is present in the coax". They know about this situation, and went from withholding PoE filters, to giving them out just to make sure this doesn't happen.

When you compare the TiVo instructions and diagrams to the Cox provided ones, TiVo would have you "pass-through", while Cox wants that split and PoE filter.

Since I didn't stay with MoCA, I just placed one filter at the actual Point-of-Entry, to cover the whole house from outside ingress, and put the rest in my "box-of-cable stuff" box.

People do need to be aware that a neighbor with MoCA and no PoE filter can punch their signal into other houses (egress & ingress), whether they use MoCA, or not. If a PoE filter is not at the PoE, a non-MoCA house can get poltergeists in their Tuning Adapters. Using Cox's split w/PoE at each TA would at least cover the Tuning Adapters. Obviously, a single PoE in a non-MoCA home is the better approach, while the split w/PoE is pretty much a necessity if MoCA is in use.

No idea on the Motorola TAs. I've never had one, or known anybody who did. It seems they are less prone to this, based on the things I don't see being reported with them in MoCA situations.

Many devices can be subject to MoCA-induced malfunctions. Cable modems, TV tuners, and more. Most new devices that have coax-in, now have built-in MoCA filters, like newer cable modems (that are not MoCA bridges), or any device that isn't design to be part of a MoCA network.

Unfortunately, some that have them built-in, don't do the job, or fail.

If it's not cost prohibitive, some might be best-off to place filters strategically, to only allow MoCA to get where it needs to go, and nowhere else.


----------



## CoxInPHX

nooneuknow said:


> I thought you were "in the know on this"...


I had never used MoCA before so, I had no personal experience, and I have never seen a posting of someone saying they needed it. I have a friend who just ordered a Pro and was asking questions about the MoCA set-up.

Yes, I was aware Cox recommended it's use, and here in Phoenix, Cox gives you a kit with 2 Coax cables, a 2-way splitter, and a POE filter along with the printed instructions. They should really give out 2 POE filters in the kit though, if they expect customers to place one on the tap also.


----------



## nooneuknow

CoxInPHX said:


> They should really give out 2 POE filters in the kit though, if they expect customers to place one on the tap also.


That's exactly what I thought, as well. I guess they'd rather let the customers egress MoCA signals, than think to give out 1 extra filter, or ask if you have one/need one for the actual Point-of-Entry.

Those used to be the only thing on Cox trucks I couldn't get a tech to give me one of. They were "reserved for Cox whole home DVR customers only".

I gave up trying to figure out what they are thinking, and just settled on "most of the time, they aren't thinking". 

I didn't mean to come across as offensive, if you felt I did. You usually are the SOAK on most things Cox.


----------



## klugger

Hey all, so I am trying to set up a TiVo mini in my house and it seems like I have a unique setup so I came here for some advice. We have a single TiVo Roamio and a single TiVo mini that we are trying to make work. First off, we are using an over the air tv antenna for our "signal" in so we don't have cable TV of any sorts. Also, we have DSL internet so we don't have a cable modem. Our house is wired for coaxal in basically every room but not for ethernet. Our Roamio sits in the living room and it DOES have a wired ethernet connection as I was able to get a wire to it and connect it to our router which sits in another room (strung a wire through the basement ceiling). The challenge is now to get the Mini (which sits up in our bedroom on the 2nd floor) connected to the "network". As I said, we can't get an ethernet cord up there very easily, it would involve a very long cord and multiple holes in walls etc...would like to avoid this if possible. Anyways, I know that I can make a MoCa work in the house and I have bought a MoCa adapter but I'm not real sure where to put it in the mess of wires. All of the coaxal cables in the house come together in the basement which is also where my antenna-in cable from outside is. Also, we have a pre-amp hooked up for the antenna...not sure if this affects the MoCa or not. Any thoughts on how to make this all work? Thanks!


----------



## jmpage2

klugger said:


> Hey all, so I am trying to set up a TiVo mini in my house and it seems like I have a unique setup so I came here for some advice. We have a single TiVo Roamio and a single TiVo mini that we are trying to make work. First off, we are using an over the air tv antenna for our "signal" in so we don't have cable TV of any sorts. Also, we have DSL internet so we don't have a cable modem. Our house is wired for coaxal in basically every room but not for ethernet. Our Roamio sits in the living room and it DOES have a wired ethernet connection as I was able to get a wire to it and connect it to our router which sits in another room (strung a wire through the basement ceiling). The challenge is now to get the Mini (which sits up in our bedroom on the 2nd floor) connected to the "network". As I said, we can't get an ethernet cord up there very easily, it would involve a very long cord and multiple holes in walls etc...would like to avoid this if possible. Anyways, I know that I can make a MoCa work in the house and I have bought a MoCa adapter but I'm not real sure where to put it in the mess of wires. All of the coaxal cables in the house come together in the basement which is also where my antenna-in cable from outside is. Also, we have a pre-amp hooked up for the antenna...not sure if this affects the MoCa or not. Any thoughts on how to make this all work? Thanks!


So you have a Roamio Basic?

If you have a Roamio Basic (no built in MoCA bridge) then you would need to put the MoCA adapter at the location of the router. Connect it to the router with ethernet and then connect it to the coaxial home wiring.

That's it. The Mini should then be able to connect over coax to the MoCA bridge, which then connects the Mini to the Roamio via Ethernet as well as to the internet via the router.

The only thing I don't know of is whether or not MoCA signals play nice with an external antenna that you describe using... you also need to know if the coax splitters in your home can handle at least 1000 mhz as that is the minimum frequency that needs to be passed in order for MoCa to work properly.


----------



## aaronwt

The lowest MoCA channel the Mini (and Roamio Pro/Plus) uses is channel 15. Which I read is 1150Mhz. It worked fine with my eight way, 1Ghz splitter that FiOS had provided me in 2007. But I still installed a 1.2Ghz splitter I got from Amazon. But that just increased the max PHY rate from around 270Mb/s to around 290Mb/s in my setup on channel 15. I didn't see a performance difference.


----------



## filovirus

I guess I always thought Moca ran on a separate coaxial cable. I always had ethernet on my main and basement TV's so I never bothered to look into it. My bedroom is the last room that I haven't gotten around to running Cat6 to. I have mini I am using with 24 inch TV that is portable, but mostly with ethernet. I was surprised to learn all I had to do was turn moca on using the pro or plus connected to ethernet and then make sure the room was wired on the splitter. Works really well and get 270 +Mbps over crappy RG59, plenty for my Tivo Mini!

The only thing that is a bummer is having to go into settings when I move the TV to an ethernet room. I may add an actiontec moca adapter to make things a bit more flexible in that room. Sure beats fishing Cat 6 around in the attic and down a wall.

Go moca.


----------



## filovirus

Which POE filter should I use for MOCA? I see some filter to 860 Mhz and others up to 1 Ghz. Prefer something from ebay that ships free and gets the job done.


----------



## lessd

filovirus said:


> Which POE filter should I use for MOCA? I see some filter to 860 Mhz and others up to 1 Ghz. Prefer something from ebay that ships free and gets the job done.


I purchased two inexpensive POE from E-Bay and tested them by putting each between my MoCA cable and a Roamio pro, the MoCA signal went away on the Roamio, as expected, so I put one on the cable coming into my home and one on the leg feeding the modem, all are working great. (you may not need the one on the Modem leg but better to be safe than sorry, and I tested the modem before and after, no change with a download speed that is faster than 100Mb/sec)


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

filovirus said:


> Which POE filter should I use for MOCA? I see some filter to 860 Mhz and others up to 1 Ghz. Prefer something from ebay that ships free and gets the job done.


Either will be fine but I'd get 1GHz.


----------



## nooneuknow

filovirus said:


> Which POE filter should I use for MOCA? I see some filter to 860 Mhz and others up to 1 Ghz. Prefer something from ebay that ships free and gets the job done.


The ones that block below 1GHz are for MSO (cableco) MoCA, in scenarios when they place the Moca "in-band". Consumer MoCA operates at >1GHz.

Using a filter that blocks lower than 1GHz can block channels, or cable modem frequencies.

Cox, in my market, uses the full 1GHz spectrum, and if I were to use a filter below 1Ghz, I'd block some of my cable modem downstreams, and lose all my H.264 channels, that are in the >960MHz spectrum.

If your MSO doesn't have a 1GHz network, none of this would likely affect you, unless the high-end of what the filter blocks is shifted lower, due to the low-end frequency being lower. If both block to the same high-end, then the only potential issue would be if your MSO upgraded to a 1GHz network, in the future (you'd have to change to filters that start at >1GHz).

My PoE filters are:
Antronix GLF-1002B1
Reject band: 1125-3000MHz
Pass band: 5-1002MHz

Some brands, like these (provided by Cox), even splitters, say 1002MHz, when the 2MHz higher "pass-band" is not required, just a marketing gimmick. Cox uses a mix of splitters rated 1GHz (1000MHz), and ones rated 1002MHz, while they ONLY use the filter I gave the specs on. There's no real-world difference. My Cox market uses the consumer/retail OOB MoCA band for their own MoCA devices (OOB = Out Of Band), so their filters work for both their MoCA devices, while also working for consumer/retail MoCA devices.

I hope this helps. If anybody is confused by any of it, I'd be happy to help clarify anything.

Added note: MoCA signals operate at such a high-power, compared to all the rest of the frequencies, which is by design, in order to allow it to "punch" right through any splitter (often even ones rated less than 1GHz), and punch through the output port isolation in splitters. This is why PoE filters at the actual PoE (Point of Entry or "demarcation point") are so important, as MoCA can egress from one residence, and ingress into other residences. The filters are the only thing that can stop them from doing this. They also do it in a way that reflects-back the blocked/filtered MoCA frequencies, creating a better MoCA network. Using additional filters to keep the MoCA going only where it is needed to go to, can improve your MoCA network performance and reliability, which also helps prevent devices that weren't designed to deal with MoCA (lacking a built-in filter), from getting adversely affected by it. Older cable modems, even some "modern" Tuning Adapters (like Cisco), and anything else connected to the coax lacking a built-in filter, may not operate correctly if exposed to MoCA frequencies, and the high power they operate at.


----------



## filovirus

I am on Comcast and I am more confused than ever! My Tivo Plus creates the Moca network from ethernet. Does this mean I am running somewhere above 1Ghz and below what Comcast uses? Is there a rational reason to get one for the cable modem If the internet is ok?


----------



## nooneuknow

filovirus said:


> I am on Comcast and I am more confused than ever! My Tivo Plus creates the Moca network from ethernet. Does this mean I am running somewhere above 1Ghz and below what Comcast uses? Is there a rational reason to get one for the cable modem If the internet is ok?


I'm a bit confused by some of what you are asking.

If your cable modem hasn't started misbehaving, I wouldn't worry about it. Some still do add more filters (especially on non-MoCA cable modems), as a preventative measure, but nothing more. Some Tuning Adapters (like Cisco), require a filter on each TA, or they misbehave. Some who have MoCA problems, find that more filters keeping the MoCA more "contained" fixes their issues.

RF cable networks that use a full 1GHz spectrum are kind of rare, so far.

I already explained how MoCA can "punch" past splitters rated 1GHZ (and even lower-rated ones) even though it operates above 1GHz.

Your MoCA for your TiVo operates above 1GHz, using the consumer/retail band.

If Comcast, in your market, isn't a 1GHz network, (which is very likely the case), a PoE MoCA filter blocking below 1GHz really shouldn't be an issue.

I'd either need to know the complete specs of your PoE filter(s), or know the manufacturer/part number, to look up the full specs, in order to know that it's blocking and passing the right frequencies. As long as it is blocking through 2GHz (minimum), it should be doing the job you need it to do. Blocking higher (like up to 3GHz), is usually just overkill, which not a bad thing, if some other residence might be somehow egressing (leaking-out) something in such a high band. That's an unlikely scenario.

I just felt that the "either one should work" sort of advice, is not "one size fits all" advice, and wanted to state that, with a full explanation why.

Bottom line: If you have a PoE filter in-place at the Point of Entry, and all is working well, you can set aside any worries, or confusion, I added.


----------



## TheBatman

Hi all - apologies, searched around and couldn't find this discussed anywhere. My question is: does MoCA require the internet to be connected?

I have cable internet (Comcast) but just OTA antenna TV. In my utility room the cable is hooked to the modem and wireless router. Then, in that room is the antenna drop that then is split into 3 lines feeding 3 rooms.

What I'd like to do is have the antenna coax system allow Tivo to talk to Tivo Minis. 

E.g., antenna signal goes to my main room coax and plugs into a Roamio (as it does today). Then the other 2 drops have tivo minis on them. Set up a MoCA network so the Roamio can feed the other 2 drops with both live TV and tivo recordings. Cable modem and router would still be completely separate, not connected to the coax system.

Hope this all makes sense. Any idea if it will work?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

TheBatman said:


> Hi all - apologies, searched around and couldn't find this discussed anywhere. My question is: does MoCA require the internet to be connected?
> 
> I have cable internet (Comcast) but just OTA antenna TV. In my utility room the cable is hooked to the modem and wireless router. Then, in that room is the antenna drop that then is split into 3 lines feeding 3 rooms.
> 
> What I'd like to do is have the antenna coax system allow Tivo to talk to Tivo Minis.
> 
> E.g., antenna signal goes to my main room coax and plugs into a Roamio (as it does today). Then the other 2 drops have tivo minis on them. Set up a MoCA network so the Roamio can feed the other 2 drops with both live TV and tivo recordings. Cable modem and router would still be completely separate, not connected to the coax system.
> 
> Hope this all makes sense. Any idea if it will work?


The Minis will need to be able to reach the internet just like the DVR.

You would connect a moca adapter to somewhere on the OTA line in the utility room (safest way is either on its own leg or on the leg to the Roamio), and run ethernet from the adapter to the router.

(I'm assuming you'll keep the Roamio on ethernet and not connect it via the moca network as well. If you want to add the Roamio to the moca network too, the instructions are a little more specific.)


----------



## Bigg

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The Minis will need to be able to reach the internet just like the DVR.
> 
> You would connect a moca adapter to somewhere on the OTA line in the utility room (safest way is either on its own leg or on the leg to the Roamio), and run ethernet from the adapter to the router.
> 
> (I'm assuming you'll keep the Roamio on ethernet and not connect it via the moca network as well. If you want to add the Roamio to the moca network too, the instructions are a little more specific.)


Pretty sure you cannot mix MoCA and OTA...

If somehow you can, you would definitely need a POE filter so that the MoCA doesn't go out of the antenna and create massive interference in whatever band it ends up in...


----------



## nooneuknow

Bigg said:


> Pretty sure you cannot mix MoCA and OTA...
> 
> If somehow you can, you would definitely need a POE filter so that the MoCA doesn't go out of the antenna and create massive interference in whatever band it ends up in...


It's not often I wish to open another "can of worms", with you. But, this is an interesting subject matter....

I've seen MoCA adapters that are designed to not even work with cable TV frequencies, at all. As in, it's a point-to-point system, using coax for MoCA *ONLY*. So, the coax is just the cabling, nothing more, and nothing else is supposed to be passed through it...

I'm not 100% certain that such things are true "MoCA", as the standard was intended.

Then, there are legitimate people, buying legitimate devices, that support MoCA, but are not going to be using it on any part of a cableco RF network.

This is because they "cut the cord", or never had "the cord", and just want free OTA, and to use MoCA, rather than run additional Cat 5e/Cat 6 ethernet cable.

I guess the $64,000 question is: Can a consumer grade VHF/UHF antenna, designed to receive (only), become a transmitting antenna, if MoCA isn't filtered with a PoE filter?

Since MoCA is designed to power-through almost anything except a PoE filter, I wouldn't leave anything to chance.

MoCA should (theoretically) work over any RG-6 coax. Sometimes RG-59 will "suffice". What happens, once it gets to an OTA antenna, is beyond what I know.


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> Pretty sure you cannot mix MoCA and OTA...
> 
> If somehow you can, you would definitely need a POE filter so that the MoCA doesn't go out of the antenna and create massive interference in whatever band it ends up in...


Why can't you mix MoCA and OTA. OTA is below 1GHz. The MoCA that the TiVo uses is 1150Mhz and higher. The MoCA frequencies should not interfere any more than they do with cable. Which is also below 1Ghz.

Maybe one day I can try it out if I ever switch my TiVos back to Ethernet. Then I could switch the Minis to using the coax cables running OTA to connect them to my network.


----------



## tarheelblue32

aaronwt said:


> Why can't you mix MoCA and OTA. OTA is below 1GHz. The MoCA that the TiVo uses is 1150Mhz and higher. The MoCA frequencies should not interfere any more than they do with cable. Which is also below 1Ghz.


Yeah I'm not understanding why MoCA wouldn't work just as well concurrently with OTA signals as it does with cable TV signals.


----------



## Aero 1

Bigg said:


> Pretty sure you cannot mix MoCA and OTA...
> 
> If somehow you can, you would definitely need a POE filter so that the MoCA doesn't go out of the antenna and create massive interference in whatever band it ends up in...


I have moca with two fios routers and ota only and it works fine with no filter. There is no interference with any of my three (one lo-VHF, one hi-VHF, one UHF) joined antennas.


----------



## eboydog

Bigg said:


> Pretty sure you cannot mix MoCA and OTA...
> 
> If somehow you can, you would definitely need a POE filter so that the MoCA doesn't go out of the antenna and create massive interference in whatever band it ends up in...


Such is not the case as the Moca standards are throughly tested and certified including passing FCC licensing requirements. The only possible interference could be if two nearby homes both had Moca implented over their Ota antennas but even then, the dual antennas would have to be touching each other for any possible RF interference to occur. The type of power transmission over a copper medium is not the same as a radiating antenna source, for interference to occur, there would need to be some type of unlicensed rouge megawatt power booster as the interference would occur due to the highly magnified signal leaking into nearby frequencies other than what is assigned to Moca.

The FCC make very demanding certifications for anything used in the United States residential area, go to the Fcc website with the Fcc number of any Moca adapter including any Tivo dvr that has builtin Moca and you will find pages beyond pages of the products testing results were the certifying testing company puts the product though every documented configuration including other tests to certify that the power, modulation and frequency of a communication device will not interfere with other unintended devices.

Think of what happens when you pull the coax cable out of a Tivo, be cable, digital cable or OTA, usually the signal drops as soon as the center wire looses the smallest amount of contact and doesn't work at all with the cable laying next to the Tivo unattached as there is hardly none if any radiating RF signal, a direct copper conducting contact must be made to allow the signal to be processed regardless of the frequency.

:up:

If it makes you feel better you can install a filter if makes you feel good but unless your antenna coax runs outside your residence such as an apartment were someone unauthorized might be able to physically connection to and tap into it, there is no need for a poe filter with a Ota antenna setup while using Moca BUT the real issue would be why you connect to a MOCA adapter to an antenna unless you had some type of large external antenna servicing several receivers as typically it's a point to point connection from the antenna to the receiver.


----------



## TheBatman

Thanks all. Usually I think of myself as fairly tech savvy but not sure I follow all of this. 

BigJim, I was indeed thinking of having the Roamio on the MoCA coax, not on ethernet. In other words, the antenna drop is split into 3 coax in the utility room. The Roamio is on the end of one split in the living room. Somehow via MoCA it can send programming to the other 2 splits (which service TVs in other rooms). I had assume the Minis could just be on the wifi for internet, just like the Roamio is. That's the idea anyway...


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

TheBatman said:


> Thanks all. Usually I think of myself as fairly tech savvy but not sure I follow all of this.
> 
> BigJim, I was indeed thinking of having the Roamio on the MoCA coax, not on ethernet. In other words, the antenna drop is split into 3 coax in the utility room. The Roamio is on the end of one split in the living room. Somehow via MoCA it can send programming to the other 2 splits (which service TVs in other rooms). I had assume the Minis could just be on the wifi for internet, just like the Roamio is. That's the idea anyway...


Ah, Tivo doesn't "officially" support wireless for streaming to Minis, since it's not always reliable. You could try it, but it's very "you're mileage may vary".

If running ethernet to the Roamio is not possible or desireable, you could add the Roamio to the moca network with a second moca adapter.

1. Add a splitter to one of the legs going to a Mini. One leg goes to a Mini, the other to the moca adapter. Connect the moca adapter's ethernet to the router. (Ignore the RF-out on this adapter.)

2. Connect the second moca adapter behind the Roamio as shown below. All Tivo devices should then be able to connect to the moca network.










So basically this is your setup from a 3-way OTA drop:

- One leg goes to Mini.
- One leg goes to splitter. Mini on one leg, moca#1 on the other. (Connect adapter's ethernet to router. Ignore RF-out.)
- One leg goes to moca#2. Both ethernet and RF-out go to Roamio.


----------



## slowbiscuit

nooneuknow said:


> It would just be irresponsible, and being a bad neighbor, not to use a PoE at the antenna input, for the same reasons PoE filters belong at the demarcation point of the cable lateral coming into a residence.


That's silly, wire-based transmission has nothing to do with MoCA OTA. Agree completely with eboydog, at these power levels you're not going to interfere with anyone OTA and you don't need a PoE filter for it. Not to mention that the freqs won't interfere with broadcast anyway even if there was some leakage OTA.


----------



## nooneuknow

slowbiscuit said:


> That's silly, wire-based transmission has nothing to do with MoCA OTA. Agree completely with eboydog, at these power levels you're not going to interfere with anyone OTA and you don't need a PoE filter for it. Not to mention that the freqs won't interfere with broadcast anyway even if there was some leakage OTA.





nooneuknow said:


> What happens, once it gets to an OTA antenna, is beyond what I know.


My own words on MoCA, with OTA in the equation.


----------



## Bigg

nooneuknow said:


> It's not often I wish to open another "can of worms", with you. But, this is an interesting subject matter....
> 
> I've seen MoCA adapters that are designed to not even work with cable TV frequencies, at all. As in, it's a point-to-point system, using coax for MoCA *ONLY*. So, the coax is just the cabling, nothing more, and nothing else is supposed to be passed through it...
> 
> I'm not 100% certain that such things are true "MoCA", as the standard was intended.
> 
> Then, there are legitimate people, buying legitimate devices, that support MoCA, but are not going to be using it on any part of a cableco RF network.
> 
> This is because they "cut the cord", or never had "the cord", and just want free OTA, and to use MoCA, rather than run additional Cat 5e/Cat 6 ethernet cable.
> 
> I guess the $64,000 question is: Can a consumer grade VHF/UHF antenna, designed to receive (only), become a transmitting antenna, if MoCA isn't filtered with a PoE filter?
> 
> Since MoCA is designed to power-through almost anything except a PoE filter, I wouldn't leave anything to chance.
> 
> MoCA should (theoretically) work over any RG-6 coax. Sometimes RG-59 will "suffice". What happens, once it gets to an OTA antenna, is beyond what I know.


What adapters run at frequencies that would interfere with cable, excluding DirecTV DECA? I know HPNA runs this way, but the only widespread use of that is AT&T U-Verse, which doesn't need the ability to run with cable, only with relatively low-frequency VDSL installs (for the times that they use the coax balun method, although I think most just use regular phones lines to get into the house).

I'm thinking anything big, unshielded, and metal can become a transmitting antenna... MoCA uses a LOT of power too, as it can blast through several levels of splitters...

I'm just imagining someone doing it, and the FCC van pulling up to cite the user for a violation...

AFAIK, MoCA was NOT designed to work with OTA, only cable or nothing.



aaronwt said:


> Why can't you mix MoCA and OTA. OTA is below 1GHz. The MoCA that the TiVo uses is 1150Mhz and higher. The MoCA frequencies should not interfere any more than they do with cable. Which is also below 1Ghz.
> 
> Maybe one day I can try it out if I ever switch my TiVos back to Ethernet. Then I could switch the Minis to using the coax cables running OTA to connect them to my network.


Read posts 276 and 277. That's irrelevant.



eboydog said:


> Such is not the case as the Moca standards are throughly tested and certified including passing FCC licensing requirements.


But are they licensed for use with OTA gear? As I understand it, they are for cable only. Of course, they would have to forsee that someone would plug it into an OTA source...

And how would it not become a massive transmitting antenna? The power levels are far higher, the antenna larger, and the frequencies lower than Wifi...



slowbiscuit said:


> That's silly, wire-based transmission has nothing to do with MoCA OTA. Agree completely with eboydog, at these power levels you're not going to interfere with anyone OTA and you don't need a PoE filter for it. Not to mention that the freqs won't interfere with broadcast anyway even if there was some leakage OTA.


Yeah, but they're used for something, even though it's not broadcast.


----------



## nooneuknow

Bigg said:


> What adapters run at frequencies that would interfere with cable, excluding DirecTV DECA? I know HPNA runs this way, but the only widespread use of that is AT&T U-Verse, which doesn't need the ability to run with cable, only with relatively low-frequency VDSL installs (for the times that they use the coax balun method, although I think most just use regular phones lines to get into the house).
> 
> I'm thinking anything big, unshielded, and metal can become a transmitting antenna... MoCA uses a LOT of power too, as it can blast through several levels of splitters...
> 
> I'm just imagining someone doing it, and the FCC van pulling up to cite the user for a violation...
> 
> AFAIK, MoCA was NOT designed to work with OTA, only cable or nothing.
> 
> Read posts 276 and 277. That's irrelevant.
> 
> But are they licensed for use with OTA gear? As I understand it, they are for cable only. Of course, they would have to forsee that someone would plug it into an OTA source...
> 
> And how would it not become a massive transmitting antenna? The power levels are far higher, the antenna larger, and the frequencies lower than Wifi...
> 
> Yeah, but they're used for something, even though it's not broadcast.


MOTOROLA SBM1000 SURFboard MoCA SMART Video Coax Adapter 10/100 Base-T Ethernet (RJ-45)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16825390003

While the advertising makes this sound like just another MoCA adapter set, it's meant for point-to-point, or star-topology, MoCA (ONLY) communication, without having the actual cable/satellite/OTA frequencies also present on the coax. It's a high-performance "ethernet to MoCA to ethernet w/4-port switch" MODEM/BRIDGE setup.

If you don't read all the specifics, some could mistake this for something that co-exists with frequencies already on the coax. These adapters need the coax all to themselves.


----------



## poppagene

nooneuknow said:


> What happens, once it gets to an OTA antenna, is beyond what I know.


True


----------



## HarperVision

Only way to truly know is to hook it up and then measure it with a spectrum analyzer or something. Even if it shows a signal at some small amplitude, as long as it's below the noise floor (-40db down?) then there shouldn't be an issue I'd think.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Exactly, it's just going to be random noise at those power levels. People are way overthinking this for OTA.


----------



## Bigg

nooneuknow said:


> MOTOROLA SBM1000 SURFboard MoCA SMART Video Coax Adapter 10/100 Base-T Ethernet (RJ-45)
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16825390003
> 
> While the advertising makes this sound like just another MoCA adapter set, it's meant for point-to-point, or star-topology, MoCA (ONLY) communication, without having the actual cable/satellite/OTA frequencies also present on the coax. It's a high-performance "ethernet to MoCA to ethernet w/4-port switch" MODEM/BRIDGE setup.
> 
> If you don't read all the specifics, some could mistake this for something that co-exists with frequencies already on the coax. These adapters need the coax all to themselves.


That supports MoCA band D which is compatible with cable, and MoCA band E, which is DirecTV's DECA. They do not support MoCA band C, which is FIOS WAN, although very few standalone adapters do.

They definitely do NOT need the cable to themselves. Quite to the contrary.

The whole point of MoCA is to co-exist with cable or DirecTV. I don't think most adapters can do band E, however, as they are made for cable, and DirecTV has their own equipment for DECA.

Those not only look like a good deal, but they would also survive a switch from cable/FIOS to DirecTV or visa versa, which most adapters would not.


----------



## nooneuknow

Bigg said:


> That supports MoCA band D which is compatible with cable, and MoCA band E, which is DirecTV's DECA. They do not support MoCA band C, which is FIOS WAN, although very few standalone adapters do.
> 
> They definitely do NOT need the cable to themselves. Quite to the contrary.
> 
> The whole point of MoCA is to co-exist with cable or DirecTV. I don't think most adapters can do band E, however, as they are made for cable, and DirecTV has their own equipment for DECA.
> 
> Those not only look like a good deal, but they would also survive a switch from cable/FIOS to DirecTV or visa versa, which most adapters would not.


In my own haste, I posted the wrong link (there *was* a different product, I had went to get the link for).

NewEgg *did have* a set of point-to-point MoCA adapters, very similar to these, which not only specified they were not to share the coax, but people bought them without reading those details, then gave bad reviews due to not researching what they were buying. Some did read the specifics, understood, loved the other one, and posted great reviews about it doing a great job, for MoCA-only transmission, over a long distance.

My guess is the product from over a month ago is no longer stocked, and may no longer be made. I seem to recall it being a discontinued and clearance item.

I get that MoCA is all about using the coax for more than just networking (and more than just cable/satellite). That's why I went back to grab a link. I just found the next-best thing.

As you say, it's a pretty good product (at face-value, going by the specs).

I'd love to hear from anybody that has (or obtains) the actual one I posted the link to. It sounds promising, versatile, and may be somewhat future-proof (if MoCA 2.0 is just a firmware update away).


----------



## Bigg

nooneuknow said:


> In my own haste, I posted the wrong link (there *was* a different product, I had went to get the link for).
> 
> NewEgg *did have* a set of point-to-point MoCA adapters, very similar to these, which not only specified they were not to share the coax, but people bought them without reading those details, then gave bad reviews due to not researching what they were buying. Some did read the specifics, understood, loved the other one, and posted great reviews about it doing a great job, for MoCA-only transmission, over a long distance.
> 
> My guess is the product from over a month ago is no longer stocked, and may no longer be made. I seem to recall it being a discontinued and clearance item.
> 
> I get that MoCA is all about using the coax for more than just networking (and more than just cable/satellite). That's why I went back to grab a link. I just found the next-best thing.
> 
> As you say, it's a pretty good product (at face-value, going by the specs).
> 
> I'd love to hear from anybody that has (or obtains) the actual one I posted the link to. It sounds promising, versatile, and may be somewhat future-proof (if MoCA 2.0 is just a firmware update away).


Interesting. It sounds like they were using a lower frequency channel to get lower losses over a long distance, but that's still idiotic to make a product that can only work on frequencies that overlap with cable TV, and not have an option to work either way.


----------



## aaronwt

It makes sense if the product is designed to work over coax without any other signals.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> It makes sense if the product is designed to work over coax without any other signals.


Except that it makes for a nightmare when people buy it thinking it will work the way MoCA was intended to work- i.e. coexist with cable.


----------



## fish62858

please forgive my newbie ignorance, but after ten pages of this thread i am quite confused... i am not terribly tech savy and that is part of it...

i have a dsl modem/router, one roamio basic and one mini in another room
and a mohu leaf antenna for live tv...
currently both tivo devices are connected to the router by ethernet cables, but there is a long cat 5 run and it is drawing my wife's complaints...
i have tried to understand the moca business but most everything i've read talks about cable internet modems and i can't keep straight in my head how it differs from my ota situation... 

i currently have the dsl router near the mini because the dsl into the house is on a jack in the bedroom where the mini is located, and the long cat5 run goes down the hall to the living room to the roamio basic...
i'd like to eliminate the long cat5 run and understand the moca can accomplish that but just can't visualize how it should be done...

i appreciate your patience and suggestions...


----------



## Bigg

fish62858 said:


> please forgive my newbie ignorance, but after ten pages of this thread i am quite confused... i am not terribly tech savy and that is part of it...
> 
> i have a dsl modem/router, one roamio basic and one mini in another room
> and a mohu leaf antenna for live tv...
> currently both tivo devices are connected to the router by ethernet cables, but there is a long cat 5 run and it is drawing my wife's complaints...
> i have tried to understand the moca business but most everything i've read talks about cable internet modems and i can't keep straight in my head how it differs from my ota situation...
> 
> i currently have the dsl router near the mini because the dsl into the house is on a jack in the bedroom where the mini is located, and the long cat5 run goes down the hall to the living room to the roamio basic...
> i'd like to eliminate the long cat5 run and understand the moca can accomplish that but just can't visualize how it should be done...
> 
> i appreciate your patience and suggestions...


Read back in this thread about the debate about MoCA working with OTA. The answer is, yes, it will work with OTA. I'd personally put a POE filter on the main line in from the antenna, but apparently it's not really needed.

So a pair of MoCA adapters will do what you want, and at that point, it doesn't really matter if you connect the Mini to MoCA or Ethernet, as it will go through MoCA from the Roamio one way or another...


----------



## fish62858

thanks for the response Bigg... i'll go back through all these pages again later...

if the mini is moca compatible, why do i need two moca adapters?
i'm thinking i don't really understand the connections...
where in this scenario am i going wrong?

1- moca adapter at the dsl router with ethernet cable connecting router to adapter? and ethernet cable connecting roamio to router?
2- coax from the wall jack to the adapter?
3- coax from the antenna into the roamio?

4- in other room, coax from wall jack connects to the mini?

5- then tell the units the use the moca?

help! :-(


----------



## Bigg

fish62858 said:


> thanks for the response Bigg... i'll go back through all these pages again later...
> 
> if the mini is moca compatible, why do i need two moca adapters?
> i'm thinking i don't really understand the connections...
> where in this scenario am i going wrong?
> 
> 1- moca adapter at the dsl router with ethernet cable connecting router to adapter? and ethernet cable connecting roamio to router?
> 2- coax from the wall jack to the adapter?
> 3- coax from the antenna into the roamio?
> 
> 4- in other room, coax from wall jack connects to the mini?
> 
> 5- then tell the units the use the moca?
> 
> help! :-(


You said your DSL modem is by the Mini, not the Roamio. The Mini can NOT bridge between MoCA and Ethernet, so you need to use an adapter to do that. You'd only need one if you could locate your DSL router with your Roamio, or swap the Roamio with the Mini, since then the Mini would just use MoCA.

If you connect the Mini via Ethernet, you would NOT connect it via MoCA. If you connect it via MoCA, you would NOT connect it via Ethernet.

And in that, you forgot the MoCA adapter with the Roamio.

I was going to say that you need to make sure that all your coax is tied together, but since you're using a small indoor antenna, you can actually keep the MoCA totally separate from the OTA line, just by tying the line that goes from the Roamio location to the Mini location directly together in the basement/attic, and then using that only for MoCA with no cable or OTA.


----------



## Bigg

Or you could just get your drill out and do hardwired CAT-6. I've done that with 5e a few times at my parents' place, not for TiVo, but for computers...


----------



## fish62858

thanks again Bigg... you have been most helpful...

unfortunately, i have just tested the coax jacks/cables of the rooms in question and there is no continuity, which is what i was afraid of... we had cox cable, then went to directv, and when the satellite service was installed, apparently things changed and now that all the directv stuff is pulled and returned, the two rooms are apparently not connected any longer... so i guess i'm going to run a cat5 along the wall baseboard and over doors and along the corner of wall and ceiling and be done with it... the wife will not like it but she will like having choices for viewing in the bedroom... besides, i think i've spent enough money already, we'll wait till some of the "cut the cord" savings begin to accumulate and see what that may bring... thanks again...


----------



## Bigg

fish62858 said:


> thanks again Bigg... you have been most helpful...
> 
> unfortunately, i have just tested the coax jacks/cables of the rooms in question and there is no continuity, which is what i was afraid of... we had cox cable, then went to directv, and when the satellite service was installed, apparently things changed and now that all the directv stuff is pulled and returned, the two rooms are apparently not connected any longer... so i guess i'm going to run a cat5 along the wall baseboard and over doors and along the corner of wall and ceiling and be done with it... the wife will not like it but she will like having choices for viewing in the bedroom... besides, i think i've spent enough money already, we'll wait till some of the "cut the cord" savings begin to accumulate and see what that may bring... thanks again...


They most likely end up in the same place, either on the outside of the building, or in the basement. Go figure out where all the coax goes, and then test which cable is which, and you should be able to join them together. It just sounds like there is nothing there right now, or there is a legacy D* multiswitch or something. My house had a SWiM setup, we have Comcast now, but the SWiM stuff and the dish are all still here, we just switched the wires over to regular splitters. OTOH, the CAT-5 method is cheaper. Do you rent or own your dwelling unit?


----------



## nooneuknow

Bigg said:


> Do you rent or own your dwelling unit?


"dwelling unit" -> home -> residence, all the same stuff, but I got a laugh for some bizarre reason...

"parental units", now that's one from The Jetsons saying that used to drive my parental units to anger. Depersonalized a bit much I guess.

Dwelling unit sounds like a SRO/cube/or anyplace you could "dwell in", even a cave...

Nice to see you helping out. I never had D* or any form of satellite, so you seem quite qualified for this.

Cheers.


----------



## Bigg

Yeah, I usually hear things referred to as Multiple Dwelling Units or Single Family Units for the sake of telecom stuff... It's a little bit of a weird terminology. People have built dwellings in caves. 

I have never had D* either, but the house I am in now has some remnants of a Slimline setup that was converted to a SWiMLine setup at some point, which is now used with Comcast cable. It looks like it may have been used with DECA for a short period of time, and now we're running with MoCA.


----------



## rich

Forgive me if this has been asked before. If I get a MoCA network adapter, can I run the "cable out" to a TiVo Mini, as well as use the "ethernet out" to connect to a stereo receiver that wants an ethernet connection?

This seems like a cool way to get ethernet to that receiver without having to run a dedicated wire to it.


----------



## slowbiscuit

That should work, but if it doesn't you could always split the cable before it goes into the adapter then send the other leg to the Mini.


----------



## eboydog

rich said:


> Forgive me if this has been asked before. If I get a MoCA network adapter, can I run the "cable out" to a TiVo Mini, as well as use the "ethernet out" to connect to a stereo receiver that wants an ethernet connection?
> 
> This seems like a cool way to get ethernet to that receiver without having to run a dedicated wire to it.


I do something similer for my son's room but a use a old cheap fios router I picked up on ebay to connect his room were he has a desktop PC, Xbox and a 2 tuner Premiere. The router is configured as as a gateway bridging the coax Moca back to 5 ports of ethernet. It was too distant to run ethernet to his room and was too far away to get a decent wireless signal.

Using a single Moca adapter would accomplish the same if all you need is a single ethernet port.


----------



## Bigg

rich said:


> Forgive me if this has been asked before. If I get a MoCA network adapter, can I run the "cable out" to a TiVo Mini, as well as use the "ethernet out" to connect to a stereo receiver that wants an ethernet connection?
> 
> This seems like a cool way to get ethernet to that receiver without having to run a dedicated wire to it.


You would need an Ethernet switch or a coax splitter, as the MoCA adapter filters out MoCA on the cable out port.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

rich said:


> Forgive me if this has been asked before. If I get a MoCA network adapter, can I run the "cable out" to a TiVo Mini, as well as use the "ethernet out" to connect to a stereo receiver that wants an ethernet connection?
> 
> This seems like a cool way to get ethernet to that receiver without having to run a dedicated wire to it.


You'll need a splitter. One leg to the Mini, the other leg to the moca adapter. Easy little fix. (Reason: The cable-out on the adapter for some silly reason doesn't pass-through the moca signal, so the Mini wouldn't be able to connect.)


----------



## poppagene

eboydog said:


> The router is configured as as a gateway bridging the coax Moca back to 5 ports of ethernet.


How do you get the 5 ports of ethernet? I get 4 without the wan port.


----------



## tbielowicz

I plan on using my Roamio Plus to setup my Moca network.

Has anyone been able to use a moca connected Tivo Mini's Ethernet port to connect another device?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

tbielowicz said:


> I plan on using my Roamio Plus to setup my Moca network.
> 
> Has anyone been able to use a moca connected Tivo Mini's Ethernet port to connect another device?


Unfortunately the Mini doesn't bridge its ethernet port. Would be nice if it did though.


----------



## sheshechic

Help me please, I'm tearing out my hair.

I have a Roamio Pro that is Moca host, an XL4client and two mini clients. One mini is in the LR downstairs that I want to run with a moca adapter but everything I have tried fails. The coax is split, with one leg going to cable box, one leg going to adapter, ethernet out of adapter to mini. That seems to kill the adapter altogether because then I couldn't get the coax or ethernet to work with the mini removed either. After that it wouldn't even work with coax straight in without going through guided setup again. At one point the mini was showing the connection as ethernet + moca, I didn't think it could do that, so why would it even show that? 

Prior to trying to accomplish this again (tried last year) I had the moca network setup via an adapter at the modem/router and the partner adapter in LR. I'm attempting this once again because there's just too much electrical stuff surrounding me now - more than 12, and that's not including the stuff on the tv wall or my husbands desk across the room. I'm going to start seeing ghosts soon with all the emf going on in this room, so please help me get my head straight on this. Like I said, I tried it last year when I upgraded all my tivos and failed. Is it just not possible to insert an adapter into the tivo created moca system? Could it possibly be my actiontec adapters, or what? Thanks.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

sheshechic, I'm not not quite sure I follow everything. I thought I had an idea, but then you say you're trying last year's setup again, so we need to be clear what your exact setup is right now today. Are you now trying to create a moca network with an adapter or the Tivo?

First, let's make sure the moca network is setup properly.

1. All of your Tivo devices have moca built-in, so the adapter isn't needed directly at any of the devices. It can be installed at the modem/router as you did before. (First pic in wildcat's post.)

2. Disconnect any ethernet on all Tivo boxes and select "MoCA" as all of their connections. Minis too. No adapters needed. If there is a Mini that still needs Guided Setup done, hold off on that one.

3. Reboot everything... Modem, Router, Tivos, Minis, to flush out old connection settings.

4. If there's a Mini that needed Guided Setup run, do it now.

After that, with a moca adapter as the host and all Tivo devices set up as moca clients, which ones don't work?

The most common fix to poor moca signals is to check the splitters in the house. Make sure they're rated for at least 1000 MHz (1 GHz) and aren't damaged or too old. If this problem is only happening at one location, you can follow that coax to the potential problem splitter(s).

A moca POE filter installed at the house's point of entry is a good idea as well.


----------



## sheshechic

ukwildcat4life said:


> Not to confuse you but the instructions I just gave you in my previous post was assuming that you wasn't going to be connecting your MoCA enabled DVR (roamio pro or XL4) directly to your router?: if you are not connecting your DVR directly to your router then you would follow the instructions in my previous reply but if you are going to connect your Roamio Pro directly to your router then you don't need any action tech adaptors... all you would need to do is Connect the coax cable coming from the wall to the Cable/MoCA port on the Roamio Pro and then Connect an Ethernet cable from your home network to the Ethernet port on the Roamio Pro then go into your network settings and select " use this DVR to create MoCA network" then on your XL4 and mini just hook your coax cable into their MoCA ports and go into your network settings and select " connect using MoCA"
> 
> Hope my information helps you....


That is how I've got it hooked up now and moca is working. The problem is in the living room where I need ethernet for other components, using an ethernet hub. That is my setup in the den as well but with the XL4 it's easy peasy because it acts as a bridge, which the mini will not do. It was my understanding that all moca is compatible but in my situation it's acting like it's not. When I insert a single moca adapter into the mix, with the mini, it gets knocked out, as though a loop is being created or something. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong, missing a step, or if it's the actiontec adapter (same one that Tivo sells). It does work when I use 2 adapters, with one creating and hosting the moca network, but not when Tivo hosts and I try to insert a single adapter. Does anyone else have a setup like this? My ideal setup would be connecting mini via ethernet off the ethernet hub.

Edit: Doesn't the status of the mini stating moca + ethernet indicate a possible loop? That really threw me, especially since it would not change through "change network setting" option.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

sheshechic said:


> When I insert a single moca adapter into the mix, with the mini, it gets knocked out, as though a loop is being created or something.


The coax to that wonky moca adapter wasn't coming from the TV-out of another adapter by chance, was it? That won't work, so just making sure. Sort of also sounds like the wonky adapter wants to be the host and competes with the Roamio if it's a host. Does that particular adapter have a host/client switch? It sounds like you pretty much know what's-what, but I'm just covering the bases.


----------



## sheshechic

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The coax to that wonky moca adapter wasn't coming from the TV-out of another adapter by chance, was it? That won't work, so just making sure. Sort of also sounds like the wonky adapter wants to be the host and competes with the Roamio if it's a host. Does that particular adapter have a host/client switch? It sounds like you pretty much know what's-what, but I'm just covering the bases.


There is a switch but that is not it's function. I just went through all of the online information available on this model- ECB2500C and found nothing that indicates that it can, or needs, to be set to either host or client.

The cable/coax isn't coming from any other device. I've tried this with the coax coming from a two way splitter and direct from the wall. If no one has any answers or new ideas I guess I still have two other options- switch minis to see what happens and/or let the mini in question stay unplugged for a period of time and try again being sure not to ever let it hook up by moca.

Thanks for trying. I was hoping that someone before me had this problem and could tell me how they resolved it- knowing what caused it would sooth my brain too.

Edit: BTW, I did try this with both adapters too.


----------



## sheshechic

ukwildcat4life said:


> Its good to hear that your MoCA is working but we need to figure out why the Mini isn't..... I'm not completely sure on a few things so if you don't mind if I ask; did you use one of your 4 tuner DVR's (Roamio Pro or XL4) at your router to create your MoCA or did you use an action tech adaptor at your router to create your MoCA? also do you have a Coax cable available to connect directly to your MoCA port to your Mini or are you trying to connect your Mini via an ethernet cable? after I know this information I think I can troubleshoot your problem better...thanks


Yes, and my moca is working without the adapter at the mini. It also works when the adapter is the moca host, with the adapter at the mini. It just doesn't work when the Roamio Pro is the host and I try to insert the adapter at another location on the mini. This was tried with both with a coax from the wall and with a two way splitter. And I have also swapped out the adapters to ensure that the problem isn't only with one.

Can you tell me how the mini could possibly state that the connection is ethernet + coax? That makes no sense at all. Also, can you tell me why the adapter light for coax gives a steady light until the mini is put into the mix? After that I cannot get the adapter's light for coax to come on again until everything (Roamio Pro and Mini) is rebooted. I kept the XL4 out of the mix while attempting to get this all working correctly.

BTW, my ultimate goal is to connect the mini by ethernet via hub attached to adapter, but I can't even get it going simply attached to the adapter.


----------



## sheshechic

ukwildcat4life said:


> Ok lets go through a few things....first like Big Jim Outlaw and I said last night all of your devices have MoCA built into them so you really don't need to use an adaptor..the only way you should use an adaptor is if you are not going to hook one of your 4 tuner DVR's (Roamio Pro or XL4) directly to your router and use that DVR as the host to create your MoCA network.... if you are not using one of your 4 tuner DVR's to create your MoCA network then you would have to use one adaptor at your router to create your MoCA and then just plug your Coax cable into the devices ( Roamio Pro, XL4, and Mini) and go into your network settings and connect via MoCA on all of them....like Jim Outlaw stated last night you would also disconnect any ethernet cords from them....you stated that you were using two adaptors? if so that is definitely a problem and would create that loop that you were talking about and thats because all of your devices already MoCA built into them and if you're using two adaptors then you're creating a double MoCA network and thus forming a loop.... and the only explanation I can come up with as to why your Mini is saying its connected via ethernet and Coax is because you have connected both an ethernet and Coax cable into it? if so you can't do that; you would either have to connect it via an ethernet cord or just your Coax cable... I myself use one Mini and I connect mine via a Coax cable and use MoCA...... let me know if this helps you any....I don't mind to keep troubleshooting until we can figure this out....


I mean no disrespect but, I'm really sorry that you're not understanding anything that I've said, nor what I'm trying to accomplish. Thank you for trying.

Regarding the connection status on the mini, it should not be capable of saying that the status is "ethernet + moca" because it is not capable of utilizing that type of connection at all- just not technically possible. Also, even if it could, it should only state such if both ports are being used- ethernet and coax connected- that has never happened. This seems to indicate to me that it's not letting go of one connection when switching to another. I'll be trying this out with my other mini on Monday, once my non-nerd people are out of the house.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Ok, from long distance I don't really understand why the Roamio and adapter don't like each other when the Roamio is the host, other than maybe they're both in a packet battle to create the moca network for some reason. I also don't know why the Mini would say moca + ethernet or why that'd even be an option for it.

But obviously the Mini should be set to moca or ethernet, not both, and only one or the other cable should be connected to it.

I know you're trying to cut down on the rats nest of equipment so you don't see dead things, but perhaps the best thing is to let the adapter do the hosting, and get an additional one if necessary for a location that needs it.

If it helps, there is now (finally) a moca adapter with 4 ethernet ports, hopefully negating the need for a switch. Cheapest price I'm seeing in google is $81, but this is what it is:

http://www.amazon.com/ACTIONTEC-The...8&qid=1404104493&sr=8-3&keywords=moca+adapter


----------



## sheshechic

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Ok, from long distance I don't really understand why the Roamio and adapter don't like each other when the Roamio is the host, other than maybe they're both in a packet battle to create the moca network for some reason. I also don't know why the Mini would say moca + ethernet or why that'd even be an option for it.
> 
> But obviously the Mini should be set to moca or ethernet, not both, and only one or the other cable should be connected to it.
> 
> I know you're trying to cut down on the rats nest of equipment so you don't see dead things, but perhaps the best thing is to let the adapter do the hosting, and get an additional one if necessary for a location that needs it.
> 
> If it helps, there is now (finally) a moca adapter with 4 ethernet ports, hopefully negating the need for a switch. Cheapest price I'm seeing in google is $81, but this is what it is:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/ACTIONTEC-The...8&qid=1404104493&sr=8-3&keywords=moca+adapter


Thanks BigJim, you really put a smile on my face. I'm going to try the other mini just to eliminate the possibility that I have one bad mini, and if so, then I can just swap them out. If not then I'll probably just do as you've suggested. I'm spoiled and no longer care for wireless, besides the living room (where the problem exists) has problems with wireless reception. Actually, thinking about it, it's always been a problem room, even cable reception was bad in there- long story. Anyway... Thank you so much for your help.
Sheila


----------



## sheshechic

Didn't work with other mini either. I'm ordering another adapter and will update after it arrives- just in case anyone else goes through the same thing.

Does anyone think that posting my question on another board could have better results?


----------



## Farplaner

Hello all, I'm trying to get my Roamio Plus to connect to the MoCA network that I have working already, but no luck (C33 error). I currently have Verizon FiOS (but not using their router). This is my current setup:

1st floor:
ONT (ethernet) -> Router -> Netgear MoCA adapter (mca1001) -> Coax outlet

2nd floor:
Coax outlet -> Netgear MoCA adapter (mca1001) -> network switch -> other devices

Coax outlet -> FiOS DVR

Everything is currently working, having MoCA connectivity to all other devices I have on the network. (FiOS DVR can access guide data and VOD)

Now when I tried to replace my FiOS DVR with my Roamio Plus, and try to connect via MoCA. It doesn't work (C33 error). I can connect an ethernet cable to it since I have the network switch nearby, but I was hoping I can replace the netgear on the 2nd floor and just use the Roamio Plus as the MoCA bridge.

I looked into the Netgear status and it says it uses MoCA 1.1, which should be what the Roamio uses, so I'm a bit lost at the moment why it wouldn't connect to the MoCA network.

Am I missing anything? Thanks in advance.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Farplaner said:


> Hello all, I'm trying to get my Roamio Plus to connect to the MoCA network that I have working already, but no luck (C33 error). I currently have Verizon FiOS (but not using their router). This is my current setup:
> 
> 1st floor:
> ONT (ethernet) -> Router -> Netgear MoCA adapter (mca1001) -> Coax outlet
> 
> 2nd floor:
> Coax outlet -> Netgear MoCA adapter (mca1001) -> network switch -> other devices
> 
> Coax outlet -> FiOS DVR
> 
> Everything is currently working, having MoCA connectivity to all other devices I have on the network. (FiOS DVR can access guide data and VOD)
> 
> Now when I tried to replace my FiOS DVR with my Roamio Plus, and try to connect via MoCA. It doesn't work (C33 error). I can connect an ethernet cable to it since I have the network switch nearby, but I was hoping I can replace the netgear on the 2nd floor and just use the Roamio Plus as the MoCA bridge.
> 
> I looked into the Netgear status and it says it uses MoCA 1.1, which should be what the Roamio uses, so I'm a bit lost at the moment why it wouldn't connect to the MoCA network.
> 
> Am I missing anything? Thanks in advance.


I would try different moca channel settings on the Roamio (including Auto if it's not already) to see if any of them hit.

If that's a no-go, you could try connecting the Roamio to the moca network at another location and see if it connects. This may either isolate the Roamio as the issue, or perhaps that location's coax as the issue.

Have you tried making it the moca host yet? Maybe everything will just work?


----------



## aaronwt

Farplaner said:


> Hello all, I'm trying to get my Roamio Plus to connect to the MoCA network that I have working already, but no luck (C33 error). I currently have Verizon FiOS (but not using their router). This is my current setup:
> 
> 1st floor:
> ONT (ethernet) -> Router -> Netgear MoCA adapter (mca1001) -> Coax outlet
> 
> 2nd floor:
> Coax outlet -> Netgear MoCA adapter (mca1001) -> network switch -> other devices
> 
> Coax outlet -> FiOS DVR
> 
> Everything is currently working, having MoCA connectivity to all other devices I have on the network. (FiOS DVR can access guide data and VOD)
> 
> Now when I tried to replace my FiOS DVR with my Roamio Plus, and try to connect via MoCA. It doesn't work (C33 error). I can connect an ethernet cable to it since I have the network switch nearby, but I was hoping I can replace the netgear on the 2nd floor and just use the Roamio Plus as the MoCA bridge.
> 
> I looked into the Netgear status and it says it uses MoCA 1.1, which should be what the Roamio uses, so I'm a bit lost at the moment why it wouldn't connect to the MoCA network.
> 
> Am I missing anything? Thanks in advance.


Are your netgear devices set for one specific channel or on auto? I'm not sure if it has an auto setting. I know I set my Dlink MoCA adapters(which are basically identical to the Netgear ones) on channel 15. Then I set my Roamio Pro on auto for the channel selection. I needed to turn on the TiVo first and then connect one Dlink adapter at a time. Making sure I got a connection before turning on the second one.

When I did that I had no problem connecting to the Dlink adapters. But when I tried connecting to them, after they had established a link between each other, the Roamio would not connect to them.


----------



## Farplaner

Thanks for the suggestions. I have everything set up to auto (and it seems like the adapters chose channel 15).

I'm not exactly sure what fixed it, but I did these:
1) Unplugged all the coax from the house
2) Plug in the 2 Netgear MoCA adapters
3) Make sure the network functions
4) Plug in Roamio
5) Try to connect... and it worked.


----------



## rodeho

In lieu of starting a whole new thread regarding my wonderful venture into MoCA and having everyone sigh at the sight of it, I decided to post in here.

Let me preface by saying I have read through this entire thread. Some great information in here. I almost feel like an expert in MoCA. Almost being the keyword...

I am trying to set up a MoCA network in my house and it is not going well.

See the attached image for my current setup.

Originally, the main feed went through a 2-way splitter where one side went to the modem (MoCA adapter) and the other through the amp which fed all of the wall outlets. We (cable tech and myself) reconfigured it to the attached and still can not get it to work.

As a trial, we split the feed going to the modem/MoCA adapter between the modem and the Roamio. This resulted in the MoCA being recognized by the Roamio.

So is this telling me that the feed to the Roamio is not working properly? It currently displays all TV channels within our package with no issue whatsoever. I would like to keep it at this location because this is where all of our TV consumption occurs.

This weekend, I plan on moving the Roamio to another outlet to see if that resolves the issue. I may also relocate the modem and router to where the Roamio is currently and split the feed as we did with the trial. This would eliminate the need for the MoCA adapter as I could just connect to the router directly via Cat5e.

Any thoughts and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## eboydog

What is the purpose of the ecb2500c moca adapter? Are you using that to bridge your ethernet into moca instead of using the Roamio Plus to bridge it since it doesnt appear you have ethernet going to the plus?

I would take the amp out and see what happens, I understand that unless its specifically designed for moca, those can cause issues.


----------



## rodeho

That is correct sir.

Regarding the amp, in a document shared in this thread..

http://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/video/at_home/Cable_Accessories/4031235_B.pdf

..I followed the suggestion of placing the amp ahead of everything in the system hoping this would resolve the issue. I will take it out and see if that does anything.

Thank you for the suggestion.


----------



## CrispyCritter

You are correct that the amplifier should not be a problem in its current location (assuming it is working correctly and not over-amplifying everything beyond specs).

You are not saying how things are not working. Is it problems between Roamio and Mini? Is it problems between Roamio and Internet? Is all other internet working (current diagram really puts a lot of stress on the cable modem - it should really be set up as in your original setup (outside to splitter, one to cable modem and one to amplifier)).


----------



## rodeho

Crispy,

I have not even tried to set up the Mini yet. The issue right now is establishing a MoCA network connection at the Roamio Plus. I keep receiving error code C33.

Yes, the internet is working as it did before. Have not noticed any drop-off. If anything it may be running faster.

With the original setup, see attached, would the MoCA be able to traverse back through the amp to reach the Plus and Mini? I was having issues with this setup so that is why I moved the amp. Yet I am still having the issue.

Thanks for your suggestions.


----------



## CrispyCritter

rodeho said:


> Crispy,
> 
> I have not even tried to set up the Mini yet. The issue right now is establishing a MoCA network connection at the Roamio Plus. I keep receiving error code C33.
> 
> Yes, the internet is working as it did before. Have not noticed any drop-off. If anything it may be running faster.
> 
> With the original setup, see attached, would the MoCA be able to traverse back through the amp to reach the Plus and Mini? I was having issues with this setup so that is why I moved the amp. Yet I am still having the issue.
> 
> Thanks for your suggestions.


Yes in that setup, you would have problems with going through the amp.

There is no need for the MoCA adapter to be on the same side of the original split as your cable modem. Can you move it to the other side (post amp and 3 way splitter as in your first diagram)? The MoCA adapter needs to have an ethernet connection to your router, but doesn't need a clean coax connection to your modem at all (it needs the clean coax connection to your TiVos). By clean, I mean a connection not through the amp or the POE filter.

Reminder that there are two settings on the Roamio for MoCA - one meant if it is doing the bridging, and one not. Make sure you've got the right one there.


----------



## rodeho

I am not sure I follow you completely. I installed the MoCA adapter as per the manufacturer's instructions.

As I try and understand what you are saying, as an example, move the adapter to the outlet just before it hits the mini? Getting a Cat5e back to the router won't be easy. I have it set up like this because the router, modem, and MoCA adapter are all located in one central location.

And with my current setup, isn't it a "clean" connection because everything is on at least the output side of the 3-way splitter which is downstream of the amp and POE filter?

For the network setting on the Roamio, I am using the "Connect using MoCA" setting because as I understand it, the "Create a MoCA Network" setting would be if I were bridging the coax to ethernet. I can't do this because I do not have access to a direct connection between the router and Roamio via Cat5e.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Judging from the current layout, everything is post-amp so it shouldn't (in theory) be a problem for moca, but I'm also wondering what the results would be without the amp, in case it's blowing things out of spec.

The amp doesn't seem all that necessary given the layout -- the Roamio being the only active cable receiver, and it's connected to the primary splitter. Low hanging fruit is to try without the amp first. If the Roamio and moca adapter still can't see each other even though they're connected to the same splitter, then I'd think something's wonky with the splitter or one of those two coax runs.


----------



## rodeho

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Judging from the current layout, everything is post-amp so it shouldn't (in theory) be a problem for moca, but I'm also wondering what the results would be without the amp, in case it's blowing things out of spec.
> 
> The amp doesn't seem all that necessary given the layout -- the Roamio being the only active cable receiver, and it's connected to the primary splitter. Low hanging fruit is to omit the amp first. If nothing yet, next step is replace the 3-way splitter.


Thanks for the response BigJim.

I will try bypassing the amp as soon as I go home today and report back.

As far as the splitter, the cable tech replaced that yesterday so I am assuming it is new(ish). But it can't hurt regardless.

Thank you for your suggestions.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Edited my post slightly.


(And of course remember to reboot/power cycle everything after the change.)


----------



## rodeho

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Judging from the current layout, everything is post-amp so it shouldn't (in theory) be a problem for moca, but I'm also wondering what the results would be without the amp, in case it's blowing things out of spec.
> 
> The amp doesn't seem all that necessary given the layout -- the Roamio being the only active cable receiver, and it's connected to the primary splitter. Low hanging fruit is to try without the amp first. If the Roamio and moca adapter still can't see each other even though they're connected to the same splitter, then I'd think something's wonky with the splitter or one of those two coax runs.





BigJimOutlaw said:


> Edited my post slightly.
> 
> (And of course remember to reboot/power cycle everything after the change.)


The run to the modem seems to be OK. As I stated in my initial post, we split that feed, after the wall outlet, between the modem and the Roamio (cable across the floor). This seemed to allow the Roamio to connect using MoCA.

So my initial thought was like you, that the run to the Roamio from the splitter is bad. Not sure if it matters as I know they operate at different frequencies but we get all the channels on our TV package with this feed. And when you say wonky what does that normally entail as far as remedying?

Thanks!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

rodeho said:


> The run to the modem seems to be OK. As I stated in my initial post, we split that feed, after the wall outlet, between the modem and the Roamio (cable across the floor). This seemed to allow the Roamio to connect using MoCA.
> 
> So my initial thought was like you, that the run to the Roamio from the splitter is bad. Not sure if it matters as I know they operate at different frequencies but we get all the channels on our TV package with this feed. And when you say wonky what does that normally entail as far as remedying?
> 
> Thanks!


Well, if there's something wrong with the splitter or coax line (age, damage, etc) it basically requires replacing. If there are barrel connectors or coax outlets along the coax run, they should be within moca spec also (at least 1000MHz and not too old). And the coax should be RG6 (the thick, solid, hard to bend kind) and not RG5 (thin, pliable).

As you mentioned in your first post, you can move the Roamio around to other outlets to narrow it down to that particular coax run. Based on the diagram it should be working, so if the amp isn't borking things, all that's left is a questionable coax or splitter.


----------



## rodeho

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Well, if there's something wrong with the splitter or coax line (age, damage, etc) it basically requires replacing. If there are barrel connectors or coax outlets along the coax run, they should be within moca spec also (at least 1000MHz and not too old). And the coax should be RG6 (the thick, solid, hard to bend kind) and not RG5 (thin, pliable).
> 
> As you mentioned in your first post, you can move the Roamio around to other outlets to narrow it down to that particular coax run. Based on the diagram it should be working, so if the amp isn't borking things, all that's left is a questionable coax or splitter.


Awesome. I will definitely be at it over the next few days. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.


----------



## DJQuad

A dumb question in the meantime - is there a way to tell where exactly to put the POE filter? I have multiple cable outlets in my house and from Comcast's last few tech visits they are complete idiots.

...the greatest moment was when they said cablecards only support 2 channels.


----------



## HarperVision

DJQuad said:


> A dumb question in the meantime - is there a way to tell where exactly to put the POE filter? I have multiple cable outlets in my house and from Comcast's last few tech visits they are complete idiots. ...the greatest moment was when they said cablecards only support 2 channels.


POE stands for Point of Entry, so that's where you want it. At the POE of your cable tv coax coming into your home.


----------



## HarperVision

@rodeho, have you tried changing moca channels/frequencies?


----------



## nooneuknow

DJQuad said:


> A dumb question in the meantime - is there a way to tell where exactly to put the POE filter? I have multiple cable outlets in my house and from Comcast's last few tech visits they are complete idiots.


EDIT/INSERT: I see two posts made it in before this one did. Both are from the same member that always seems to pull that off...

In most situations, where no amps are involved, the most important PoE filter goes at the first place you can install it, before any splits occur (the true point of entry).

If you happen to have Cisco-brand TA's in the market you are in, most don't know that they have an amp (more of an "equalizer") to the "OUT" coax port, making them unable to let MoCA through, causing malfunctions, and thus requiring the additional PoE filters for each TA, as my current signature describes. IIRC, Comcast doesn't use TA's (or stopped using them).

Additional PoE filters are also sometimes needed for cable modems, or any other coax-connected device that doesn't have one built in, and underperforms/malfunctions due to the high-power MoCA band getting in.

In your situation, if you are left with a bunch of unused wall-plates, or open ports anywhere, they should have installed terminators on them. You can buy them at Home Depot. But, it shouldn't be your problem if that's how they left things.

PoE filters are also good for isolating the MoCA to only where it needs to go to, reflecting back the signals, and sometimes increasing MoCA performance. But, with unterminated/open ports and/or wall-plates, all bets are off on much of anything working as good as it should, or could.


----------



## rodeho

HarperVision said:


> @rodeho, have you tried changing moca channels/frequencies?


I did. I went through every single one of them (15 through 29 I think - odd's only) and received the same C33 error. That was before we made all the configuration changes. Maybe I should try it again. Just getting frustrated.

Thanks for the suggestion Harper!


----------



## rodeho

As an update to my situation...

I bypassed the amp last night and this didn't do anything to get the MoCA up and running. Tonight I will relocate to a different room or rather extend a long enough coax to the current location from another outlet. I will update tonight.

I am beginning to think more and more that it is the feed serving the Roamio's current location. But it just baffles me that almost two years ago when Cox was setting up our Whole Home DVR system with 3 receivers, they ran new feeds to each of the DVR's. One of which where the Roamio sits now. Go figure.


----------



## HarperVision

rodeho said:


> I did. I went through every single one of them (15 through 29 I think - odd's only) and received the same C33 error. That was before we made all the configuration changes. Maybe I should try it again. Just getting frustrated. Thanks for the suggestion Harper!


Anytime! Did you reboot after each change? (Not sure if you need to, but worth a shot, huh?)


----------



## rodeho

Well guys, I feel like an idiot. There was a POE filter on the coax feed coming into the modem that I never saw. It must have been installed by the cable company??? Luckily my Mom dropped something behind the piece of furniture where the cable and filter were located or else I never would have seen it. I was fixing to tear apart the house looking for splitters to replace. 

Thanks for all the help this thread has provided. Hopefully someone can learn from my misfortunes. My lesson from all of this is to check everything. And check it again. Something as simple as a filter in the wrong spot can make for some frustrating times.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Glad things are working now.


----------



## nooneuknow

rodeho said:


> Well guys, I feel like an idiot. There was a POE filter on the coax feed coming into the modem that I never saw. It must have been installed by the cable company??? Luckily my Mom dropped something behind the piece of furniture where the cable and filter were located or else I never would have seen it. I was fixing to tear apart the house looking for splitters to replace.
> 
> Thanks for all the help this thread has provided. Hopefully someone can learn from my misfortunes. My lesson from all of this is to check everything. And check it again. Something as simple as a filter in the wrong spot can make for some frustrating times.


Is there any way you could make a diagram of what your configuration is now, and maybe what it was before? Members with amps in use tend to be very hard for most of us to advise on, with MoCA and where PoE filters need to go, as well as where the amp should/shouldn't be. The model/part number of the amp is important as well. Very few are "MoCA friendly". Those that aren't, will always be an issue waiting to happen (when changes are made).

Your conclusion was spot-on. Inspect every connection from the actual point of entry/demarcation point, to each downstream splitter/amp and the endpoint of each run.

The downside of wallplates is that things like filters and splitters can be behind the plate, and you can't know what is there, unless you were the last person to have the faceplate off. Even then, some have had to pull out all the slack, to find splitters that are inside the wall. Some wallplates have a box behind the plate, while others have just a folding metal piece to screw the faceplate to, and it's just a hole to inside the drywall (this is where the pulling out all the slack, to check for inline devices, is necessary).


----------



## ernda

Quick question. I set up a MOCA network in my house to extend my wireless network (eg, upstairs bedroom has coax cable--->MOCA adapter---->ethernet cable out--->airport express). If I add a Tivo mini to this my choice is connecting an ethernet cable from the airport express LAN port to the Mini, or split the coax cable with one leg of the split going to the Mini and activating the MOCA function of the Mini. Any reason to do one over the other? Thanks


----------



## rodeho

ernda said:


> Quick question. I set up a MOCA network in my house to extend my wireless network (eg, upstairs bedroom has coax cable--->MOCA adapter---->ethernet cable out--->airport express). If I add a Tivo mini to this my choice is connecting an ethernet cable from the airport express LAN port to the Mini, or split the coax cable with one leg of the split going to the Mini and activating the MOCA function of the Mini. Any reason to do one over the other? Thanks


Is the Mini located at the same location as the router? Where is the main unit (ie: Roamio Plus?) located? MoCA is the recommended method by Tivo. I can't get into the technicalities of it as I just don't know enough about the two but I do know it has been discussed in this thread and others on this site. I am sure someone here can help with explaining the differences.


----------



## rodeho

nooneuknow said:


> Is there any way you could make a diagram of what your configuration is now, and maybe what it was before? Members with amps in use tend to be very hard for most of use to advise on, with MoCA and where PoE filters need to go, as well as where the amp should/shouldn't be. The model/part number of the amp is important as well. Very few are "MoCA friendly". Those that aren't, will always be an issue waiting to happen (when changes are made).
> 
> Your conclusion was spot-on. Inspect every connection from the actual point of entry/demarcation point, to each downstream splitter/amp and the endpoint of each run.
> 
> The downside of wallplates is that things like filters and splitters can be behind the plate, and you can't know what is there, unless you were the last person to have the faceplate off. Even then, some have had to pull out all the slack, to find splitters that are inside the wall. Some wallplates have a box behind the plate, while others have just a folding metal piece to screw the faceplate to, and it's just a hole to inside the drywall (this is where the pulling out all the slack, to check for inline devices, is necessary).


I sure can. I will try and do it without making things confusing.

My first configuration prior to any modifications is the image titled, "CableWiring-Old." Keep in mind that POE filter on the input side of the modem was the final reason as to why I could not get the MoCA working (I was unaware of it's existence at the time).

The cabling was reconfigured to the image titled, "CableWiring-2ndConfig." As a note...with the amp located where it was in "CableWiring-Old," I moved it ahead of everything in the system. I did this because amps can prevent the MoCA from passing through to other devices. This did not resolve the issue but again, I was unaware of the POE filter on the input side of the modem. Maybe someone can verify or comment as to whether or not this amp would have been OK in the "CableWiring-Old" configuration?

I got lucky in finding the POE filter on the input side of the modem. Once removed this allowed the MoCA to roam free. And this leads to the final configuration titled, "CableWiring-Final."

Clear as mud?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

ernda said:


> Quick question. I set up a MOCA network in my house to extend my wireless network (eg, upstairs bedroom has coax cable--->MOCA adapter---->ethernet cable out--->airport express). If I add a Tivo mini to this my choice is connecting an ethernet cable from the airport express LAN port to the Mini, or split the coax cable with one leg of the split going to the Mini and activating the MOCA function of the Mini. Any reason to do one over the other? Thanks


Your choice in that scenario. But I'd do ethernet since it's already there. (I try to keep coax splits to a minimum.)


----------



## HarperVision

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Your choice in that scenario. But I'd do ethernet since it's already there. (I try to keep coax splits to a minimum.)


I agree, and also why add an extra demodulator (in the mini, which is going to just convert it to Ethernet anyway) when it's not necessary?


----------



## nooneuknow

rodeho said:


> I sure can. I will try and do it without making things confusing.
> 
> My first configuration prior to any modifications is the image titled, "CableWiring-Old." Keep in mind that POE filter on the input side of the modem was the final reason as to why I could not get the MoCA working (I was unaware of it's existence at the time).
> 
> The cabling was reconfigured to the image titled, "CableWiring-2ndConfig." As a note...with the amp located where it was in "CableWiring-Old," I moved it ahead of everything in the system. I did this because amps can prevent the MoCA from passing through to other devices. This did not resolve the issue but again, I was unaware of the POE filter on the input side of the modem. Maybe someone can verify or comment as to whether or not this amp would have been OK in the "CableWiring-Old" configuration?
> 
> I got lucky in finding the POE filter on the input side of the modem. Once removed this allowed the MoCA to roam free. And this leads to the final configuration titled, "CableWiring-Final."
> 
> Clear as mud?


Great job on the diagrams! You also went the right direction with the amp.

Unless the amp specifies it has a passive (non amplified) MoCA pass-through, MoCA will not get through/past any of the amp ports. It would need a pass-band in the MoCA range to let it through. Some might mistakenly think a 2GHz amp would work. That won't work, because you don't want the MoCA amplified. Even a 2GHz amp might not pass MoCA between multiple out ports, unless designed to do so.

The only thing I might do differently, would be to put the PoE filter on the out port of your amp (since it only has one out port). Just because the amp can't pass the MoCA, doesn't mean it properly rejects it, in the way a PoE filter does (reflecting it back). Some amps might malfunction if exposed to MoCA, unless they specify they have a filter built-in (just like some cable modems, tuning adapters, and other devices not specifically designed to deal with the high-power and high-frequency MoCA signals).


----------



## rodeho

nooneuknow said:


> Great job on the diagrams! You also went the right direction with the amp.
> 
> Unless the amp specifies it has a passive (non amplified) MoCA pass-through, MoCA will not get through/past any of the amp ports. It would need a pass-band in the MoCA range to let it through. Some might mistakenly think a 2GHz amp would work. That won't work, because you don't want the MoCA amplified. Even a 2GHz amp might not pass MoCA between multiple out ports, unless designed to do so.
> 
> The only thing I might do differently, would be to put the PoE filter on the out port of your amp (since it only has one out port). Just because the amp can't pass the MoCA, doesn't mean it properly rejects it, in the way a PoE filter does (reflecting it back). Some amps might malfunction if exposed to MoCA, unless they specify they have a filter built-in (just like some cable modems, tuning adapters, and other devices not specifically designed to deal with the high-power and high-frequency MoCA signals).


Thanks! And thank you for the explanation on the amp.

I will definitely do exactly as you stated with the location of the POE filter. After reading through this thread and seeing what you guys said about the filter being able to reflect back the MoCA signal, I should have known better. Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## SBacklin

BigJimOutlaw said:


> *Pro Tip:*
> 
> Using MoCA setup option #2? Connect your Smart TV, Blu-ray player, Roku, or other device to the Tivo's Ethernet port! Those devices can daisy chain off your Tivo's MoCA connection. _(If you want to connect multiple devices, you can get a cheap Ethernet hub and plug it into the Tivo's port too.)_
> 
> If there are ideas or things missed in the guide (but remember it's not a complete and total MoCA FAQ, just a setup guide) then post them here. I'll add them!


I'm hoping someone can answer this. I need to add an access point to a room where a TiVo box with built in MoCA (Roamio Plus) is located. Does the above stated Pro Tip mean I can plug in my wireless access point via ethernet to the TiVo's ethernet port and have it get internet connection via the TiVo MoCA network?

Also, in another room (large house) I need to add a second access point and wanted to connect it via the MoCA network. I should be able to do this by only buying one MoCA ethernet adapter and putting it in that room, connect the AP to that adapter and have it connect via the existing MoCA network?

For details, my main Roamio Pro creates the MoCA network downstairs and is connected to my router via an ethernet cable.


----------



## Old Hickory

I had not seen this previously covered 

My Comcast cable modem (required for telephone) is in bridge mode only as I have a dual-band gig router behind it providing all my wifi needs. 

Are there any known issues using the above that I need to know beforehand before installing a moca network? 

And, did I read correctly that my Tivo Roamio Pro will no longer use wifi once the moca network has been made?

Thanks


----------



## DJQuad

HarperVision said:


> POE stands for Point of Entry, so that's where you want it. At the POE of your cable tv coax coming into your home.


Yeah the Comcast rep just came to install the POE so I'm good there.

Even after reading this thread I'm still a bit confused about what hardware I'll need, although admittedly my head is swimming a bit - I'm probably over-complicating things.

Here's my current setup -

Room 1 - Cable modem, Netgear R6100 Wireless Router. My main PC is wired into the router.

Room 2 - TiVo Premiere, Vizio Smart TV, and soon a Roku. Sometimes an iPad.

Room 3 - a Mac

Room 4 - where most mobile devices are used, mostly iPads.

All 4 rooms have coax outlets and currently rooms 2, 3, and 4 connect via wireless.

I'm a bit confused about the hardware I'll need as far as adapters and splitters, particularly in room 2 where there will (soon) be 3 devices using MoCA.


----------



## Farplaner

Old Hickory said:


> I had not seen this previously covered
> 
> My Comcast cable modem (required for telephone) is in bridge mode only as I have a dual-band gig router behind it providing all my wifi needs.
> 
> Are there any known issues using the above that I need to know beforehand before installing a moca network?
> 
> And, did I read correctly that my Tivo Roamio Pro will no longer use wifi once the moca network has been made?
> 
> Thanks


Just connect a MoCA adapter's ethernet port to a LAN port of your gigabit router, and the coax of the adapter to the wall coax outlet.

That's it! Your Tivo Roamio Pro (after going to the menu to select the MoCA connection) will now get data from MoCA rather than wifi.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

SBacklin said:


> I'm hoping someone can answer this. I need to add an access point to a room where a TiVo box with built in MoCA (Roamio Plus) is located. Does the above stated Pro Tip mean I can plug in my wireless access point via ethernet to the TiVo's ethernet port and have it get internet connection via the TiVo MoCA network?


Yep, you can try this if the Tivo is a moca client (not creating the network). Give it a shot and see what happens. There may or may not be AP settings to fiddle with, but it's doable.



SBacklin said:


> Also, in another room (large house) I need to add a second access point and wanted to connect it via the MoCA network. I should be able to do this by only buying one MoCA ethernet adapter and putting it in that room, connect the AP to that adapter and have it connect via the existing MoCA network?


Yep, also doable.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Old Hickory said:


> I had not seen this previously covered
> 
> My Comcast cable modem (required for telephone) is in bridge mode only as I have a dual-band gig router behind it providing all my wifi needs.
> 
> Are there any known issues using the above that I need to know beforehand before installing a moca network?
> 
> And, did I read correctly that my Tivo Roamio Pro will no longer use wifi once the moca network has been made?
> 
> Thanks


Sometimes the moca network interferes with the cable modem, but usually not. If it happens, a POE filter ($8 on ebay) can be installed on the coax right before the modem. Problem solved.

The Tivo settings should be set to connect to the moca network at that point (or by ethernet if it's creating the moca network). Wifi unnecessary.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

DJQuad said:


> Yeah the Comcast rep just came to install the POE so I'm good there.
> 
> Even after reading this thread I'm still a bit confused about what hardware I'll need, although admittedly my head is swimming a bit - I'm probably over-complicating things.
> 
> Here's my current setup -
> 
> Room 1 - Cable modem, Netgear R6100 Wireless Router. My main PC is wired into the router.
> 
> Room 2 - TiVo Premiere, Vizio Smart TV, and soon a Roku. Sometimes an iPad.
> 
> Room 3 - a Mac
> 
> Room 4 - where most mobile devices are used, mostly iPads.
> 
> All 4 rooms have coax outlets and currently rooms 2, 3, and 4 connect via wireless.
> 
> I'm a bit confused about the hardware I'll need as far as adapters and splitters, particularly in room 2 where there will (soon) be 3 devices using MoCA.


First decide what all you want connected to the moca network. You'll need 1 moca adapter connected at the modem/router as shown in the first post to create the network.

Then you'll need a moca adapter in any other room you want devices connected to the moca network. I assume room 2 at the least. If you want all those things to have a wired connection, you'll probably want to connect an ethernet switch to the moca adapter.

If you want to extend your wireless connection for the benefit of your mobile stuff, you can attach a wireless AP to a moca adapter in room 4 (or wherever you like).


----------



## DJQuad

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Then you'll need a moca adapter in any other room you want devices connected to the moca network. I assume room 2 at the least. If you want all those things to have a wired connection, you'll probably want to connect an ethernet switch to the moca adapter.


So I should use an ethernet switch instead of a 4 way cable splitter?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

DJQuad said:


> So I should use an ethernet switch instead of a 4 way cable splitter?


Yes. Think of it this way... All the moca adapters do is convert your coax into ethernet ports.

The moca adapter itself only has 1 ethernet port. If there was only 1 device there, you wouldn't need the ethernet switch. But since you'll have 3 or 4 devices there (tivo, roku, TV), the ethernet switch would be handy to connect all of them.


----------



## DJQuad

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yes. Think of it this way... All the moca adapters do is convert your coax into ethernet ports.
> 
> The moca adapter connects to the coax. Then connect an ethernet switch to the moca adapter so your multiple devices (tivo, TV, roku,) can get an internet connection from the coax.
> 
> The moca adapter itself only has 1 ethernet port, if there was only 1 device there, you wouldn't need the ethernet switch. But since you have 3 or 4 devices there, the ethernet switch would be handy to connect all of them.


Ok great. In a room that has just a TV for example, is that when a splitter would be used instead of a switch or generally is ethernet always best?

..I'm slowly understanding


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

DJQuad said:


> Ok great. In a room that has just a TV for example, is that when a splitter would be used instead of a switch or generally is ethernet always best?
> 
> ..I'm slowly understanding


The moca adapters have an ethernet port and a TV-OUT port.

The TV connects to the TV-OUT port to keep the TV's picture going as normal. The single device in that room you want connected to the internet would be connected to the adapter's ethernet port. No splitter or switch needed.


----------



## SBacklin

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yep, you can try this if the Tivo is a moca client (not creating the network). Give it a shot and see what happens. There may or may not be AP settings to fiddle with, but it's doable.


The TiVo in question (bedroom TiVo) in a Roamio Plus and thus has the MoCA built in. Its not creating the MoCA network. The network is being created by the Roamio Pro in the living room.


----------



## SBacklin

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yep, also doable.


Awesome, thanks!


----------



## DJQuad

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The moca adapters have an ethernet port and a TV-OUT port.
> 
> The TV connects to the TV-OUT port to keep the TV's picture going as normal. The single device in that room you want connected to the internet would be connected to the adapter's ethernet port. No splitter or switch needed.


When WOULD a splitter need to be used?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

DJQuad said:


> When WOULD a splitter need to be used?


Depends on how a house or room is wired... if there's something complicated about it sometimes a splitter solves one problem or another. Some older moca adapters didn't have a tv-out port, so a splitter would be needed to feed the TV/Tivo. If a cable provider requires Tuning Adapters for SDV, they'd want to add a splitter behind the Tivo/TA.

I haven't had to add any extra splitters to my home to accommodate moca (5 rooms). One pre-existing outside splitter running up to the 3rd floor was old and wasn't providing a good moca signal, so that had to be replaced. But inside the home there wasn't anything extra to do.


----------



## DJQuad

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Depends on how a house or room is wired... if there's something complicated about it sometimes a splitter solves one problem or another. Some older moca adapters didn't have a tv-out port, so a splitter would be needed to feed the TV/Tivo. If a cable provider requires Tuning Adapters for SDV, they'd want to add a splitter behind the Tivo/TA.
> 
> I haven't had to add any extra splitters to my home to accommodate moca (5 rooms). One pre-existing outside splitter running up to the 3rd floor was old and wasn't providing a good moca signal, so that had to be replaced. But inside the home there wasn't anything extra to do.


Awesome. Does this wiring look correct?


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## BigJimOutlaw

Looks good except Phil's TV. The Tivo will need cat5 and coax. The TV won't need the coax.


----------



## DJQuad

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Looks good except Phil's TV. The Tivo will need cat5 and coax. The TV won't need the coax.


Oh ok, I must have misunderstood an earlier post where I thought it said TVs themselves always need a coax connection to ensure the quality.

So the TV and Roku only need an ethernet connection? Here's my revised network where I added a Roku to the living room.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

As shown, that moca network will work.

Will the livingroom TV be using cable TV service? If so it'll need coax. Or if it's just going to be fed video by the Roku, then it's fine.


----------



## nooneuknow

I find the recent diagrams/maps of coax, splitters, devices, and locations so very refreshing. It makes it so easy to advise people how to make things work together. Why doesn't TiVo (or a TCF member) just provide a universal tool for making them, free to all?

I used to do a lot of thing where if is wasn't for such tools, confusion and uncertainty were insured. If I had the skills to make such a thing, I would, and I'd make it free for all.

While I understand that it's something that is probably available, for those who know how to do it, and what to use, and likely at no cost, why not make it so easy, everybody can, and will want to use it?

Any takers on making things easier for all?


----------



## lessd

nooneuknow said:


> I find the recent diagrams/maps of coax, splitters, devices, and locations so very refreshing. It makes it so easy to advise people how to make things work together. Why doesn't TiVo (or a TCF member) just provide a universal tool for making them, free to all?
> 
> I used to do a lot of thing where if is wasn't for such tools, confusion and uncertainty were insured. If I had the skills to make such a thing, I would, and I'd make it free for all.
> 
> While I understand that it's something that is probably available, for those who know how to do it, and what to use, and likely at no cost, why not make it so easy, everybody can, and will want to use it?
> 
> Any takers on making things easier for all?


no good deed goes unpunished


----------



## DJQuad

BigJimOutlaw said:


> As shown, that moca network will work.
> 
> Will the livingroom TV be using cable TV service? If so it'll need coax. Or if it's just going to be fed video by the Roku, then it's fine.


It will. Here's hopefully my final network map 










One thing I'm still a bit confused about is how the HDMI will work and what additional cables I need to get that the adapters don't include. Edit: and the TiVo needs coax but the Roku does not?


----------



## DJQuad

nooneuknow said:


> I find the recent diagrams/maps of coax, splitters, devices, and locations so very refreshing. It makes it so easy to advise people how to make things work together. Why doesn't TiVo (or a TCF member) just provide a universal tool for making them, free to all?


It's certainly possible but as a programmer the reason it probably hasn't been done so far is because of the sheer amount of possibilities and configurations in any given home.

Think of the amount of decision "trees" that would need to be pre-programmed in a series of forms (steps). Step 1 would be easy, how many rooms do you have TVs in? From there it would get incredibly complex on the backend because you'd have to provide a way to specify what room the modem/router is in, streaming devices, set-top boxes, DVRs, wireless devices, amplifiers, mobile devices, MoCA, Homeplugs, and so on.

Not to mention DYNAMICALLY generating one heck of a nice looking network map with clear legends of all connections, including a means of determining what adapters, cables, splitters, etc. would need to be purchased. This includes additional cables you'd need other than what the adapter kits include.

Wow I'm rambling. In short ironically enough I've actually thought about such a tool, and even one to also generate a list of materials hooked to an Amazon affiliate link so development and hosting costs would be covered. Programming all the variables and updating the hardware options as new hardware is released gives me a headache just thinking about it. 

That's why I kept all older versions of my network map in this thread - to see the progression mixed with responses by people with a much bigger brain than me. Perhaps it would be more productive if people post their network maps like I have, even if it's just chicken scratches on a napkin. lol


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

DJQuad said:


> It will. Here's hopefully my final network map
> 
> One thing I'm still a bit confused about is how the HDMI will work and what additional cables I need to get that the adapters don't include. Edit: and the TiVo needs coax but the Roku does not?


I think moca adapters include a cat5. That's pretty much all you need. You might need a few more cat5's to cover every device though. (I'm counting 8 total from the graph.)

HDMI provides audio/video from the boxes (Roku and Tivo) to the TVs. (Phil's TV will need HDMIs from Tivo and Roku too.) Is there confusion about HDMI?

The Roku is strictly an internet streamer and doesn't have a coax port. It only connects to the internet wirelessly or by ethernet.

The Tivo needs coax because without it, it wouldn't have a video source to record (your cable TV service).


----------



## DJQuad

I looked into the Roku a bit more and it does need an HDMI cable, which it doesn't come with. I get the HDMI connections now.

Here's my 4th revision which includes a couple more Rokus, HDMI connections, and another switch. Hopefully it's all correct because I just ordered $700 worth of goodies  If anyone wants to know what all I had to buy let me know.

I opted to go with Rokus instead of TiVo Minis, Amazon Fire TVs, Apple TVs, and Chromecasts, but the connections would basically be the same as far as a MoCA Network itself.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Graph looks good.  Rokus are nice. Always a good option.


----------



## SBacklin

BigJimOutlaw said:


> With the release of the Tivo Mini and Roamio boxes, a lot of people are considering using a MoCA connection rather than ethernet or wireless to communicate between Tivo devices.
> 
> Because a lot of people are new to MoCA, hopefully this quick and dirty setup information will help answer most of your questions. This isn't a complete A-to-Z MoCA FAQ; it just answers the most common setup questions that have come up on this forum.
> 
> This guide answers:
> 
> - What is MoCA?
> - Why use MoCA?
> - How to create a MoCA Network
> - How to connect your Tivo devices to a MoCA Network
> - Special issues (Tuning Adapters, FiOS customers)
> - Troubleshooting most common issues
> 
> *FiOS TV customers:* Skip to near the end if you have setup questions.
> 
> *What is MoCA?*
> 
> Simply put, MoCA is a networking standard that allows you to transmit data over the coax cable in your home. It's an alternative to ethernet, wireless, and powerline adapters.
> 
> *Why use MoCA?*
> 
> Ethernet is ideal for home networking, but because most homes don't have ethernet cable running throughout them, most people use wireless [802.11] adapters as an alternative.
> 
> Wireless adapters can be slower and less reliable than a wired connection for many reasons. Because of this, Tivo recommends using a wired connection for multi-room streaming between Tivo devices. MoCA is a good option to use because it's faster and more reliable than wireless, and it uses the coax cable already running through your home.
> 
> If you have only 1 Tivo device, you may not need MoCA. A wireless adapter (or the Tivo Roamio's built-in wireless) may be all you need. This guide is mainly intended to help people with 2 or more Tivo devices stream content between them, such as a Tivo DVR to a Tivo Mini.
> 
> *Enabling MoCA in the Home*
> 
> There are two ways to set up a MoCA network:
> 
> Option 1: Connect MoCA-enabled Tivos by ethernet and use the Tivo to establish the MoCA network.
> Option 2: Connect a MoCA adapter to your router. (Choose this option if running ethernet to your Tivo is not desirable.)
> 
> *Option 1: Connect Tivo via Ethernet*
> Platforms Supported: Roamio Pro, Roamio Plus, XL4 (a/k/a Elite), Premiere 4
> 
> This option allows the Tivo itself to function as a MoCA bridge for the rest of the home.
> 
> 1. Connect your Tivo (one of the boxes listed above) to your router via Ethernet.
> 2. Go in the Network Settings, select 'Change Network Settings' and select 'Use this DVR to create a MoCA Network.'
> 
> That's it! Your MoCA network is created!
> 
> 3. Go into the Network Settings of your other MoCA-supported devices (Mini, Premiere 4, XL4) and select "MoCA" as their network connection type.
> 
> _(Note: Using this method, your Mini(s) or other secondary MoCA devices are relying on your Tivo DVR for its internet connection, so if your Tivo DVR is offline for some reason, so are the secondary devices.)_
> 
> If you have a Tivo on your network that does not support MoCA, check below for the "Setting up a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio for MoCA" section if you would like to get them connected to MoCA too.
> 
> *Option 2: Use a MoCA Adapter*
> Platforms Supported: Roamio Pro, Roamio Plus, XL4 (a/k/a Elite), Premiere 4
> 
> 1. If running an ethernet cable to your Tivo is not desirable or possible, purchase a MoCA adapter ($50 from tivo.com, and also available on Amazon, eBay, etc.).
> 2. Connect it to your modem and router as shown below to create a MoCA network.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's it! Once the above diagram is completed, this will enable MoCA throughout the home.
> 
> 3. Choose "MoCA" in the Network Settings on each Tivo box.
> 
> If you have a Tivo that does not have built-in MoCA support, check below for the "Setting up a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio for MoCA" section if you would like to get them connected to the MoCA network as well.
> 
> *Setting up a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio for MoCA:*
> 
> Platforms Supported: All Tivos with an ethernet port but not MoCA support (namely, 2-tuner Tivos and the 4-tuner basic Roamio.)
> 
> 2-tuner Tivos and the basic 4-tuner Tivo Roamio do not natively support MoCA. However, you can still connect them to a MoCA network if you wish.
> 
> Follow one of the above options to create the MoCA network. You must also purchase additional MoCA adapters for each of the additional non-MoCA Tivos you wish to connect to the MoCA network, and connect them in this fashion:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *FiOS TV Customers:*
> 
> Your home is already MoCA-enabled if your Verizon-supplied router is connected via coax. Your P4/XL4/Roamio Plus/Roamio Pro and Mini can simply be connected to the coax, select "MoCA" under their Network Settings, and that's all that needs to be done.
> 
> If you would like to connect a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio to your MoCA network, follow the previous section's instructions on how to connect MoCA adapters to these Tivos.
> 
> *POE FILTER:*
> 
> It is recommended that you install a MoCA Point of Entry (POE) filter at your cable TV's point of entry in the home. This helps keep your MoCA signal strong, prevents it from exiting your home and potentially allowing neighbors access to your network, or creating interference with neighbor's services. They're $9 on Tivo.com and can also be purchased cheaply elsewhere (eBay, etc).
> 
> If you are a FiOS TV customer, a POE filter isn't necessary.
> 
> *Tuning Adapters:*
> 
> If your Tivo setup requires a Tuning Adapter supplied by the cableco, the below image shows the recommended setup to allow the tuning adapter and MoCA network to co-exist.
> 
> From the Splitter:
> - 1 line goes to the Tuning Adapter, then connect the TA to the Tivo's USB port. Don't use the TA's RF-Out.
> - The other line goes to the Tivo if it has built-in moca support, or to the MoCA adapter if your Tivo model needs one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Most Common Problems:*
> 
> The most common problems associated with MoCA are old or inadequate splitters, loss of internet connectivity, signal amplifiers (amps) somewhere on the line, and aged coax cabling.
> 
> At the very least, make sure all of the coax connection points are firm.
> 
> Splitters: In the event of signal issues (such as bad performance or devices not seeing each other), old or inadequate splitters are a common issue. Replace any old or inadequate splitters (rated less than 1000 MHz) with new splitters that are rated for 1000 MHz (1GHz) or higher.
> 
> Amps: Signal amps should be placed at the coax cable's point of entry in the house. However, sometimes they are not. Ideally the amp should be moved. But if that is too complicated, the amp should be rated to pass through signals of at least 1000 MHz (1GHz) bi-directionally. Replace if necessary.
> 
> Old coax: Very old and weathered/damaged coax cable and loose connection points might be to blame as well. These coax lines would have to be replaced with new coax.
> 
> Loss of internet connectivity: If you lose your internet connectivity when activating MoCA, install a MoCA POE filter on the coax right before your cable modem ($8 on ebay).
> 
> SDV Tuning Adapter malfunctions: If your SDV Tuning Adapter isn't working when activating MoCA, install a MoCA POE filter on the coax right before your Tuning Adapter ($8 on ebay).
> 
> NIM100 MoCA adapters: Older NIM100 MoCA adapters have been known to be incompatible with the built-in MoCA support of Tivo boxes. The "work-around" is to either not use the Tivo's integrated MoCA (use adapters instead) or replace the older NIM100's with newer adapters.
> 
> *Pro Tip:*
> 
> Using MoCA setup option #2? Connect your Smart TV, Blu-ray player, Roku, or other device to the Tivo's Ethernet port! Those devices can daisy chain off your Tivo's MoCA connection. _(If you want to connect multiple devices, you can get a cheap Ethernet hub and plug it into the Tivo's port too.)_
> 
> If there are ideas or things missed in the guide (but remember it's not a complete and total MoCA FAQ, just a setup guide) then post them here. I'll add them!


The pro tip was very handy but I recently discovered something. Even tho my Pro was the coordinator node, when I connected a device to my Plus's ethernet port to daisy chain, the other tivo units started seeing my plus as the coordinator node when it wasn't. I had connections but my LAN speeds were very slow. Once I disconnected the device and made sure my Pro was back as the coordinator node, all was back to normal. The device I was using to feed off my Plus's ethernet port was a AirPort Extreme that was extending a wireless network via ethernet. I also read somewhere that doing the pro tip idea would cause the unit to try and create the moca network which in my case it did. What are your thoughts on this particular situation?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

SBacklin said:


> The pro tip was very handy but I recently discovered something. Even tho my Pro was the coordinator node, when I connected a device to my Plus's ethernet port to daisy chain, the other tivo units started seeing my plus as the coordinator node when it wasn't. I had connections but my LAN speeds were very slow. Once I disconnected the device and made sure my Pro was back as the coordinator node, all was back to normal. The device I was using to feed off my Plus's ethernet port was a AirPort Extreme that was extending a wireless network via ethernet. I also read somewhere that doing the pro tip idea would cause the unit to try and create the moca network which in my case it did. What are your thoughts on this particular situation?


I don't have experience with the AE but (just to cover the simple basics) I would first make sure it's setup as a bridge. And the Tivo should connect to its WAN and be set to moca+ethernet. Not trying to be insulting if those are obvious, I just don't have AE-on-Tivo experience to go into any particular detail about its compatibility. Hopefully someone else can chime in.


----------



## SBacklin

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I don't have experience with the AE but (just to cover the simple basics) I would first make sure it's setup as a bridge. And the Tivo should connect to its WAN and be set to moca+ethernet. Not trying to be insulting if those are obvious, I just don't have AE-on-Tivo experience to go into any particular detail about its compatibility. Hopefully someone else can chime in.


The AE is in bridge mode. I just hooked it back up to my Plus, all is connected and the Pro is still showing at the coordinating node. That is how it should be. However, I'm still seeing that slow down on my LAN. I'm at a loss as to why its doing that. I did also notice that with the AE hooked up the network status now shows as Ethernet + MoCA instead of just MoCA. I'm wondering if I should try and get a separate MoCA bridge and put it in and see if my LAN slows down. Its hard to find good adapters. The ECB2500C I won't buy because even though they're supposed to be MoCA 1.1, their ethernet ports are maxed out at 100Mbps because they don't have Gb ports. Hopefully, someone else can add additional information.

*Well, I think I may have figured it out. I believe by design an actual connection will be made by daisy chaining since TiVo hasn't disabled the ethernet port while a unit is joining a MoCA network. However, it seems to be designed to use ethernet as the connection to the net when it detects a cable being plugged in. I went into network settings and told it use the MoCA connection so it would be joining the MoCA network and it told me it can't (or won't) use the MoCA until the ethernet cable is unplugged. Once I did that, then it was setup to strictly use the MoCA. See, that's why its slowing down. The Plus thinks its main connection to the network is through the ethernet port when in fact its MoCA. So it sends everything through the ethernet port only to have sent back down and through the Plus. Basically, it works but since it has to bounce around (being confused) it slows down. So it looks like I will have to look into a separate MoCA bridge for my setup.


----------



## waxon

Hello! New user, very close to making my Tivo purchase...

Couple questions about setup.

Planning on a Roamio Basic plus 2 Minis.

Have an existing Moca network on Fios.

In a slightly unusual turn of events, will be using cable tv to feed the Roamio.

The Roamio basic will be directly connected to the to one of the ethernet ports on the Fios moca enabled router.

I will have 1 mini also connected via ethernet to the Fios router, and 1 mini via moca on a coax cable connected to the fios moca network.

My questions - 

#1) in this setup does the Roamio basic still need a moca adapter even though it is connected directly to the Fios router which is creating the moca network?

#2) does the cable tv line need a POE filter, or does it not matter since the moca network is not on that coax line?

Thanks for the assistance!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

SBacklin said:


> *Well, I think I may have figured it out. I believe by design an actual connection will be made by daisy chaining since TiVo hasn't disabled the ethernet port while a unit is joining a MoCA network. However, it seems to be designed to use ethernet as the connection to the net when it detects a cable being plugged in. I went into network settings and told it use the MoCA connection so it would be joining the MoCA network and it told me it can't (or won't) use the MoCA until the ethernet cable is unplugged. Once I did that, then it was setup to strictly use the MoCA. See, that's why its slowing down. The Plus thinks its main connection to the network is through the ethernet port when in fact its MoCA. So it sends everything through the ethernet port only to have sent back down and through the Plus. Basically, it works but since it has to bounce around (being confused) it slows down. So it looks like I will have to look into a separate MoCA bridge for my setup.


Basically yes. Chances are the Plus is creating a second moca network, causing a packet battle (the slowdown). This has been known to happen sometimes. The head-scratcher is figuring out how to stop the Plus from doing that and if there are any settings on the AE that might help. Using basic switches usually works fine, but routers are questionable.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

waxon said:


> Hello! New user, very close to making my Tivo purchase...
> 
> Couple questions about setup.
> 
> Planning on a Roamio Basic plus 2 Minis.
> 
> Have an existing Moca network on Fios.
> 
> In a slightly unusual turn of events, will be using cable tv to feed the Roamio.
> 
> The Roamio basic will be directly connected to the to one of the ethernet ports on the Fios moca enabled router.
> 
> I will have 1 mini also connected via ethernet to the Fios router, and 1 mini via moca on a coax cable connected to the fios moca network.
> 
> My questions -
> 
> #1) in this setup does the Roamio basic still need a moca adapter even though it is connected directly to the Fios router which is creating the moca network?
> 
> #2) does the cable tv line need a POE filter, or does it not matter since the moca network is not on that coax line?
> 
> Thanks for the assistance!


I think I understand what you want to accomplish. Two completely separate coax runs -- one from cable, the other from Verizon?

The base Roamio doesn't need a moca adapter if it's connected to the router for its connection. (That wouldn't work anyway since the Roamio is getting coax from the separate cable feed.) The Mini you planned on using moca for is the question... If it's connected to the Fios coax runs as you said, then it'll be fine too.

The POE filter isn't needed on the cabletv run since no moca would be running through it.


----------



## waxon

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I think I understand what you want to accomplish. Two completely separate coax runs -- one from cable, the other from Verizon?
> 
> The base Roamio doesn't need a moca adapter if it's connected to the router for its connection. (That wouldn't work anyway since the Roamio is getting coax from the separate cable feed.) The Mini you planned on using moca for is the question... If it's connected to the Fios coax runs as you said, then it'll be fine too.
> 
> The POE filter isn't needed on the cabletv run since no moca would be running through it.


Yes, 2 cable runs exist, one from cable and one from Verizon. I probably should have attempted to make a diagram 

Thanks for answering - some of the information I was reading was a bit conflicting so I appreciate the confirmation.

Most everything I read online said the base Roamio needs a moca adapter but that perplexed me when I was planning on using a direct connection to a moca router (guess the information I was reading just wanted to keep things simple).

Much appreciated!


----------



## Flyin_Taco

Howdy!

I'm having issues trying to connect my Tivo Premiere to my Tivo Roamio Plus via Moca. I have my RP MoCa bridge enabled. My premiere has an Actiontec MoCA network adapter. When I go to Network>settings>change settings> The only prompts I see are modify ethernet settings, connect using wireless n, or use phone line. There are no MoCA settings. My Network adapter connected only has two green lights illuminated. Power and ethernet. The coax light is not on. My cable comes into the house and from there goes to a drop tap.









The output side goes into the house where it hits an identical tap. One side goes to the Roamio Pro and theh other to my cable modem. The tap side on the outside goes into an amp.









That goes into the RF input side on the amp. The output side goes to a splitter









and then up to the bedroom where I am trying to connect the Premiere. Are the taps my problem, or do I need a different amp? Many thanks!


----------



## nooneuknow

There is so much wrong with the pictures and descriptions, my impulse is to say "take all of that out, and start over"...

Those "tap" type splitters (which aren't really true "splitters") are a potential problem on their own, plus you have an amp in the path the MoCA will be trying to go.

All ports through which your MoCA needs to traverse, need to be downstream of the amp. I'd go as far as to put the PoE filter on the OUT port of the amp, rather than the IN port, once placed at the most upstream place it can be (if you truly need the amp).

Amps don't let MoCA pass through them. Unbalanced "tap" splitters like those, are also the least MoCA-friendly ones you could use, due to the imbalanced nature.

Two-way splitters give -3.5dB loss each OUT port. Taps are -1dB on the OUT port, and -6dB on the TAP port.

Those exact antronix ones you are using, I had a handful of, that caused nothing but trouble, just to try and use one for my cable modem. I switched to SVI/CommScope brand, and the problems with the signal errors went away. This didn't even involve MoCA!

*EDIT/ADD*: I'm not saying you can't use taps with MoCA, just that they require more care in how you place them, if you actually need them for some reason. They can come in handy, like for putting your CM on the -6 tap, then having a run of coax that is long on the OUT port, or just a run that winds up being split more on the OUT. I just prefer to not use them, unless there's no other way to get the signal you need, where you need it.

I also see a suspicious coax connector, with a taper to it. If you can replace that coax run, with one with non-tapered ends, I suggest you do. Tapered ends usually are tapering down to substandard shield coax.

How many PoE filters do you have, do you have a Tuning Adapter? If so: Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo.

How's your selection of any more splitters you might have around?


----------



## tarheelblue32

nooneuknow said:


> Amps don't let MoCA pass through them.


That's not always true. While I agree with you that it is generally best to avoid using powered amps with MoCA because it can potentially cause problems, I actually have a powered amp (as well as 2 2-way splitters) sitting between my Roamio Plus and the Actiontec MoCA adapter at my router, and I have never had any problems with the MoCA signals going between them.

The problem the poster is having could be specific to the amp he is using, or it could be from using taps rather than regular splitters, or it could be from the combination of the two. It's really impossible to know for sure until he tries switching out stuff.

My gut tells me that taps are probably worse for MoCA than regular splitters, but I have absolutely no factual basis for that assumption, so take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The Premiere won't have moca settings. As far as the Premiere knows, it's connected by ethernet (to the adapter), so ethernet is the correct setting.

This seems unnecessarily complicated with the directional couplers (antronix). The amp is possibly fine since it goes up to 1000 MHz, but I'd start with normal splitters and try to keep the amp upstream of the moca network regardless.

Drop --> amp --> POE filter--> normal 1GHz 3-way splitter (modem, roamio, premiere)

If the modem doesn't work in this scenario (it should, but if not), add a splitter before the amp and give the modem its own leg and use a 2-way splitter instead for the roamio/premiere.


----------



## nooneuknow

tarheelblue32 said:


> That's not always true. While I agree with you that it is generally best to avoid using powered amps with MoCA, I have an amp sitting between my Roamio and the MoCA adapter at my router, and I have never had any problems with it.


Any amp or equalizer that somehow allows the MoCA to get through, is a 1% type situation, and a future problem, just waiting to happen. You must be running on the lowest possible frequency MoCA band, for that to function, and there is no way that it's not affecting the MoCA, unless the amp has a MoCA pass-band, or the MoCA is only traversing between OUTs, and not actually passing "through" the amp.

I hope what you really mean is that the MoCA is passing between two OUT ports of the amp fine (but not involving traversing IN-OUT) to make the necessary path. That has a better shot than the 1% way.

Under no circumstances, would I deliberately say an amp inline to MoCA is OK, or advise it. Since this person has a single-out amp, there are no OUT ports to hope MoCA could traverse between, it really needs to be placed in a manner where no MoCA is going through from IN-OUT or OUT-IN. If the amp turns out to be unnecessary, or can be isolated to use where it's not inline to where MoCA needs to pass through, that's better.

I'd rather know your exact configuration, before I condemn it, over a possible miscommunication.


----------



## nooneuknow

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The Premiere won't have moca settings. As far as the Premiere knows, it's connected by ethernet (to the adapter), so ethernet is the correct setting.
> 
> This seems unnecessarily complicated with the directional couplers (antronix). The amp is possibly fine since it goes up to 1000 MHz, but I'd start with normal splitters and try to keep the amp upstream of the moca network regardless.
> 
> Drop --> amp --> POE filter--> normal 1GHz 3-way splitter (modem, roamio, premiere)
> 
> If the modem doesn't work in this scenario (it should, but if not), add a splitter before the amp and give the modem its own leg and use a 2-way splitter instead for the roamio/premiere.


The amp shows it has a proper pass-through RDC. So, your first suggestion fits well, if the amp is necessary.

The second suggestion is also valid, if need be, and depending on the signals at the CM, a tap, rather than a two-way splitter, may resolve a high or low signal condition for the modem. That's how I have mine, home run to the very first split (tap in my case), which I used the tap port to -6 what was an overly-high signal to the modem, and only lose -1 before the rest splits further, but no amps involved (other than the ones in my TAs, which are bypassed with splitters).

*EDIT/ADD*: You are also correct in calling the antronix parts "directional couplers", rather than "taps" (I'm having "one of those days"). They are usually referred to as a "DC6", by the Cox cable techs (who always try to take mine away from me, as they don't even want them to be used, and are not allowed to use them in their regular residential installations).


----------



## Flyin_Taco

Thanks for the info. So an update: I got rid of the amp and taps and I now have the coax feed going into a 2 way splitter. One leg comes into the house to another 2 way splitter which feeds the Roamio Pro on one side and the Cable Modem on the other. Back to the other leg where the feed comes in: I have that going straight to the Moca Network adapter and then the Premier. That particular cable run is very long....I'm guessing 150 ft... maybe more...but it's all RG-59. I'm guessing that is where my trouble is. Any other thoughts?


----------



## tarheelblue32

Flyin_Taco said:


> That particular cable run is very long....I'm guessing 150 ft... maybe more...but it's all RG-59. I'm guessing that is where my trouble is. Any other thoughts?


That's a problem. RG-59 is not good for higher frequencies like the ones used for MoCA.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Ah, yes that's interesting. You really want RG6.


----------



## Flyin_Taco

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Ah, yes that's interesting. You really want RG6.


Looks like I'll be buying some at The Depot manana.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Flyin_Taco said:


> Looks like I'll be buying some at The Depot manana.


Get quad shielded if possible.


----------



## nooneuknow

Flyin_Taco said:


> Thanks for the info. So an update: I got rid of the amp and taps and I now have the coax feed going into a 2 way splitter. One leg comes into the house to another 2 way splitter which feeds the Roamio Pro on one side and the Cable Modem on the other. Back to the other leg where the feed comes in: I have that going straight to the Moca Network adapter and then the Premier. That particular cable run is very long....I'm guessing 150 ft... maybe more...but it's all RG-59. I'm guessing that is where my trouble is. Any other thoughts?


Let me guess... The coax with the tapered-down connectors, like I inquired about, is the RG59?

If so, I spotted that problem, from the start. ALL RG59 should be replaced, even if not using MoCA, but much more so, since you are. I've also seen very poor-quality RG6, with tapered connector ends, like in the picture.

Also, any coax nipple (ANY at all) that has ever had RG6 inserted, will likely be unable to get a good grip/connection to the thinner RG59. Check any wall plates that have "barrel" type connectors, for any hidden problems behind the plates (especially those wall-plate barrels), while making sure you're using RG6, and are inspecting every coax nipple, anyway.

There have been multiple instances of a whole MoCA setup failing to work, just because the inner connecter of a single coax nipple (often just one barrel in one wall-plate, or just one port of a splitter), was stretched, or broken, internally.

Given the complexity and sheer oddness, for what you provided pictures of, I would not be surprised, if there is an issue somewhere you can't see, or haven't seen, like more of those DC6 type splitters, hidden inside the wall, behind a wall plate.

Happy hunting.


----------



## Flyin_Taco

nooneuknow said:


> Let me guess... The coax with the tapered-down connectors, like I inquired about, is the RG59?
> 
> Happy hunting.


Yup. It's all rg59 except for the short runs. I'll be busy for a while. Stay tuned and thanks for the help!


----------



## trip1eX

Flyin_Taco said:


> Yup. It's all rg59 except for the short runs. I'll be busy for a while. Stay tuned and thanks for the help!


If you're running RG^ and ever wanted an ethernet network then now is the time to think about doing that too. It would little extra work and expense.


----------



## nooneuknow

trip1eX said:


> If you're running RG^ and ever wanted an ethernet network then now is the time to think about doing that too. It would little extra work and expense.


I was actually coming back here to suggest the same thing. I always make sure to pull any cable I might ever want or need, if I'm going to be doing the work anyway.


----------



## swak

I am in the same boat and starting to wish I hadn't recently decided to try mocha. My house is wired with rg59 to each room and so far I haven't been able to get mocha working. I assumed it could be my old splitters that I doubt are rated for 1ghz but now I'm worried it's also my rg59 coax.

Haven't decided if I will pull in rg6, run Ethernet, or upgrade to the newest powerline adapters. Is the solid copper rg6 worth the cost or is the CCS wire Ok?


----------



## aaronwt

tarheelblue32 said:


> Get quad shielded if possible.


No need for quad shielding in the digital era. All our suppliers/manufacturers we use at work don't recommend quad shielded cable any more for a digital system.


----------



## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> No need for quad shielding in the digital era. All our suppliers/manufacturers we use at work don't recommend quad shielded cable any more for a digital system.


In a residential setting, where there may not be much control over keeping the coax from running parallel to power lines, quad-shield still has a place.

Would I recommend quad for running along the outside of a house, along baseboards, or such? No. Not only is quad harder to work with, and usually unnecessary, it also costs more.

One thing that I do see done wrong, frequently, is using indoor coax outdoors, and/or in wet locations. There is such a thing as outdoor and wet location coax. It has a dielectric goop inside the jacket, that keeps moisture out, and can self-heal minor damage to the cable.

So far, unless ordering it, specifically, I've only seen one identifying mark that is present on most all of it. It looks like a little picture of an old-time telephone handset (think payphone).

If somebody is running coax through a crawl-space, that tends to be damp, subject to flooding, and/or runs below ground level, you want the outdoor dielectric. When combined with the right outdoor seals to add to the ends, it should last a lifetime, and never let moisture creep in and degrade it. It's kind of a PITA to work with, because the dielectric goop is very sticky.

The RG6 that always seems to be problematic for cable, in my experience, is any kind that's satellite-specific coax. Most of what I've seen uses different material for everything. I'd avoid anything that specifies it is for satellite use. Most of it has shielding no better than chewing gum stick foil, one layer, and is just too easy to damage. One good nick in the jacket, and now there's an ingress/egress leak. Satellite coax only tends to run short distances, and works just fine for satellite. But, every time I've tried it, or come across it, being used for CATV, it's always been problematic, as have been satellite splitters, being used for CATV.

CATV coax is copper-clad steel wire inner conductor, with plastic insulation, mylar/foil shield, braid mesh, and thick jacketing (with higher grades having more layers of shield/mesh).

Satellite coax is often solid-copper inner conductor, foam insulation, just a single ply of mylar/foil shield, no braid mesh, and thin jacketing, and tends to have connectors that have to taper-down to match the smaller overall diameter.

I've seen "dual-purpose" or "all-purpose" coax, that was just so bad, it wasn't worth wasting material to make it.

If only I could recall the research I did, that also backed-up that "not all RG6 is created equal, nor does it being labeled RG6 make it what you need"...

I'm sure to catch all hell for this post. I'm just stating my experiences, observations, and sharing some opinions. Cox techs tend to have aneurysms burst, when they see anything satellite being used for CATV. I don't buy everything they tell me. But, I did find that there are reasons why there are different materials and designs used between the two.

Personally, I'd never use coax without the braid mesh inside the jacket for CATV. That's what creates the ground necessary, and code mandated, for CATV and OTA installations. That foil-only RG6 might make enough of a ground to pass the voltage satellite uses, but not so much for a safety-ground, should your TiVo need to make use of the transient protection circuitry that the power supply counts on the chassis having a ground to shunt to...


----------



## nooneuknow

swak said:


> I am in the same boat and starting to wish I hadn't recently decided to try mocha. My house is wired with rg59 to each room and so far I haven't been able to get mocha working. I assumed it could be my old splitters that I doubt are rated for 1ghz but now I'm worried it's also my rg59 coax.
> 
> Haven't decided if I will pull in rg6, run Ethernet, or upgrade to the newest powerline adapters. Is the solid copper rg6 worth the cost or is the CCS wire Ok?


If your splitters are rated at least 860MHz, and (big and) of good quality (plus made for digital signals), they should work. Most, including myself, say to use 1GHz splitters. Some say to use higher rated ones. Going any higher than 1.2GHz ones can be a bad idea. But, MoCA was designed to work with as low as existing 860MHz splitters, not all these "MoCA-enabled/enhanced" ones that are showing up.

The solid copper core coax is not worth the premium. It's only required for satellite, due to the voltages that coexist to run things.


----------



## HarperVision

aaronwt said:


> No need for quad shielding in the digital era. All our suppliers/manufacturers we use at work don't recommend quad shielded cable any more for a digital system.


Absolutely NO reason NOT to use quad shield other than what was mentioned already, price and ease of use.

Digital or analog means squat, that's the modulation. They are both a modulated signal on an RF carrier frequency and THAT is what justifies whether to use single, dual or quad shield, not whether it's analog or digital modulation.


----------



## buckyswider

I'm thinking about trying MoCA due to the "switch" issues (and also to make my wife's viewing unreliant on the house network). I thought I needed to set up another network and have 2 runs to my Roamio (cable in and MoCa out), but now I think I'm wrong. 

Can anyone tell me if I'm set up to plug-and-play?

I have cable-in in the basement. That runs to a fancy, all-band 8 port out/1 port in splitter/amp. 

The line from Comcast goes into one of the "in" ports. Each of the "out" ports goes to a TV location (and one goes to the cable modem location). 

There is cable in on the Roamio Plus already (semi-obviously). There is cable where I'm trying to set up Mini #1 (albeit still plugged in to the comcast DTA). 

So if I:

A- Enable MoCa bridging on the Roamio Plus
B- Move the coax from the DTA into the Mini
C- Tell the mini to use "MoCa"


Then that is all I need to do??? Seems to be too simple....


----------



## swak

nooneuknow said:


> If your splitters are rated at least 860MHz, and (big and) of good quality (plus made for digital signals), they should work. Most, including myself, say to use 1GHz splitters. Some say to use higher rated ones. Going any higher than 1.2GHz ones can be a bad idea. But, MoCA was designed to work with as low as existing 860MHz splitters, not all these "MoCA-enabled/enhanced" ones that are showing up.
> 
> The solid copper core coax is not worth the premium. It's only required for satellite, due to the voltages that coexist to run things.


Thanks for the info, my 8-way splitter is old and doubt it is 1HGz so I plan to replace it.

Do I need rg6 coax or can rg59 work? I have an amp in front of my 8-way splitter which has provided excellent picture quality. I plan to add a PoE filter, should it be before or after the amp (the amp is the first device inside the house, then my 8-way splitter on the output of the amp)


----------



## buckyswider

WOW! That was it! 

Too easy. Long story short, if you've got a fairly updated coax infrastructure (RG6, 2GhZ) then you probably can implement MoCA without ANY changes to the physical infrastructure, if you've already got live coax everywhere you want to put a Mini/Roamio (plus or pro).


That was the concept that eluded me...maybe typing it out will help someone else. (It's probably written out in one of the other MoCA threads that I didn't see, though)


----------



## nooneuknow

Combined reply to last two questions:

860MHz splitters should work, 1GHz splitters will work fine, 1.2GHz might help in a few rare cases, no need for 2GHz or greater. MoCA doesn't have to play by the rules of the ratings, due to the very high signal (+dB) level it operates at. The CATV/Cable Modem signals are at levels that do play by the ratings/rules. The quality and condition of the splitters is the most important part.

When you have a single OUT port amp, place it as far upstream as possible, place the PoE filter on the OUT port of the amp, or on the IN port of the first splitter you wind up putting after the amp. Either way works, since filter is not directional (I'd put it right on the amp).

I'm assuming your amp must have an upstream 5-42MHz band pass, or no cable modem, or bidirectional device could properly "talk back" using RDC/upstream communication. If not, you'll need to get a different amp, or get creative with a split before the amp, and might need another PoE filter. You aren't limited to using just one filter. They block and reflect MoCA, so they can be used to isolate the MoCA to only where it needs to go, and improve things, over just letting it run everywhere.

You can try RG59, but I'd expect problems, and suggest you equate that into things before you likely disrupt every coax-connected device.


----------



## aaronwt

HarperVision said:


> Absolutely NO reason NOT to use quad shield other than what was mentioned already, price and ease of use.
> 
> Digital or analog means squat, that's the modulation. They are both a modulated signal on an RF carrier frequency and THAT is what justifies whether to use single, dual or quad shield, not whether it's analog or digital modulation.


I'm only saying what the reps for the manufacturers of the coax cables we purchase and use, have specifically told us. They specifically said that for our internal cable plants that are digital, to just use dual shielded coax and for our internal cable plants running analog to use quad shielded coax. I figured since they make and distribute the cable they should know something about their product, but you never know.


----------



## HarperVision

aaronwt said:


> I'm only saying what the reps for the manufacturers of the coax cables we purchase and use, have specifically told us. They specifically said that for our internal cable plants that are digital, to just use dual shielded coax and for our internal cable plants running analog to use quad shielded coax. I figured since they make and distribute the cable they should know something about their product, but you never know.


What are the frequencies each is using? Are these low level (1Vpp) analog and digital signals or modulated and unconverted IF or RF?


----------



## aaronwt

HarperVision said:


> What are the frequencies each is using? Are these low level (1Vpp) analog and digital signals or modulated and unconverted IF or RF?


We take the analog channels from the cable/satellite systems and run them through modulators to put them on specific channels/frequencies. The cable plants running digital use QAM to distribute. Ten SD or two HD per QAM channel.


----------



## HarperVision

aaronwt said:


> We take the analog channels from the cable/satellite systems and run them through modulators to put them on specific channels/frequencies. The cable plants running digital use QAM to distribute. Ten SD or two HD per QAM channel.


It's probably due to external noise suppression then, similar to what nooneuknow was alluding to with running the coax adjacent to power cables and other EMI noise producing things. They're probably recommending quad for analog because it's more susceptible to noise and distances that causes ghosting, reflections, etc. Whereas digital QAM is less susceptible.

I like this explanation:



> The shielding is the layer of braided wire. The purpose of the shielding is just that. It shields the conductor from stray "outside" signals, also known as ingress (more on ingress later). It also keeps the signal being carried along the conductor INSIDE the cable (prevents egress, which is signal leaking OUT). Most RG6 has 2 layers of shielding (dual), but you can also find quad-shield (4 layers) cable out there. It is more expensive, and harder to work with........
> 
> .........4 12 11 Couple things. The coax cable is actually a wave guide. At high frequency, somethink called the skin effect takes over in the wave propagation and the electrons only travel on the surface of the conductor and not in it so a center conductor diameter becomes irrelavant and thinks like quad shielding' proper line tremination, and not exceeding maximun cablle bend raduis wil produce faster, cleaner, less distorted, wavefroms, ie your signal....
> 
> .....The thing about digital vs. analog loss: analog signals will get progressively worse on a slope as they lose signal - you will get a worse & worse picture as falloff increases. With digital, the impact is not noticeable at first, because the signal is carrying instructions for the digital set top, as opposed to actual video. So, it can tolerate loss up to a point - and when you reach that point, the failure is abrupt. That's why, when you lose signal in a digital set, the entire picture cuts in and out. In a nutshell, either you get a picture, or you don't. There's very little in-between. 2013-08-23 03:41:23.


(From here: http://www.dslreports.com/faq/cabletech/2._CATV_Wiring )

So I see what you and them are saying, but you must also have a top frequency that isn't a strain on the coax as well? (The skin effect signal egress part mentioned above)


----------



## nooneuknow

HarperVision said:


> It's probably due to external noise suppression then, similar to what nooneuknow was alluding to with running the coax adjacent to power cables and other EMI noise producing things. They're probably recommending quad for analog because it's more susceptible to noise and distances that causes ghosting, reflections, etc. Whereas digital QAM is less susceptible.
> 
> I like this explanation:
> 
> (From here: http://www.dslreports.com/faq/cabletech/2._CATV_Wiring )
> 
> So I see what you and them are saying, but you must also have a top frequency that isn't a strain on the coax as well? (The skin effect signal egress part mentioned above)


While not in the quote... You "like" an explanation that even I wouldn't know what they were trying to say, if I hadn't had it explained to me, then was in such disbelief, I spent a day reading up on all that, so I already knew of the effect, and what causes/worsens it?

It's such a grammar and spelling trainwreck, I bet most who read it, wonder "just how drunk and brain damaged was the UFO chasing, conspiracy theorist, who came up with that?"

Even your equating the skin effect with egress shows those who don't already understand it, will misunderstand the attempted conveyance of it.

If you find an untainted version, that at least some can understand, and not be so easily misunderstood, I'd post the link here, but not the whole science article.

I had a cox tech try to tell me that I couldn't use splitters that had the ports enter at different angles, because the signal traveled in a spiral, on the outside of the cable, and a splitter without all the ports on the same plane would bend the spiral, and ruin the signal. I peeled the back off a splitter he insisted was the "right" one, and showed him how the center conductor made a sharp 90 degree bend, before the solder joint on the board inside. I then peeled open the one he claimed was no good, and low and behold, no 90 degree bends inside, thanks to the ports being at 90 degree angles on the outside. Man, did he just get real quiet and spaced-out, after that.

I knew sharp bends of coax were bad for the signal, but was glad he told me his misconveyed version, as that's how I learned why copper-clad coax wasn't the "junk" I believed it to be.

The issue with sharp bends with coax is twofold:

1. The signal gets distorted and starts reflecting inside the shielding.
2. The internal insulation between the conductor and shielding will distort, permanently (and the conductor, as well), making the conductor too close to the shielding at the bend.

Misinformation I'll correct:

1. Size of conductor does matter, as do all the specifics of a proper cable for the job.
2. The shielding is actually the mylar foil bimaterial layer. The braid mesh is mostly reinforcement, helps keep the cable from becoming internally damaged, helps it hold it's shape, takes on the stress of hanging/pulling, and what does the grounding. It does have some shielding value, especially when the braid is very high strand count, then more along with each additional mylar-foil layer, and each additional braid band. Really old cable, was like fishnet nylons, having only enough braid to meet the grounding requirements, and covering very little area, leaving that job to the mylar-foil, but still making the cable strong enough to hang between the pole and house.

You did get the part about AC and analog versus digital mostly correct.

What you missed was how the coax has inductance and capacitance, and running parallel to AC wiring can actually create AC current in/on the coax. I have a run that I had to discontinue, as it ran parallel to the backbone of the AC romex bundle, and inducted enough current to give you an AC tickle if you touched the center, and/or a capacitive jolt, when doing something like changing a splitter, and your hand became a ground path.

*EDIT/ADD:* Solid copper core cable tends to get the core conductor bent, no matter how carefully you try to work with it. You think "oops, I'll just straighten that kink out". Nope, once it's bent, it's bent, no matter how straight the outside looks. This is made worse by foam insulated solid copper core, as the foam has "give" to it, and you wind up with imperceivable bends, masked by the foam, plus it's no longer centered to the shielding. "Satellite coax" tends to be solid copper, foam, and mylar-foil only, with no braid band, and thin jacketing. Worst of all worlds, when used for CATV.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Moca for newbies, folks... I'd rather this not turn into yet another overrun encyclopedic thread. You guys are too smart for your own good.


----------



## HarperVision

nooneuknow said:


> While not in the quote... You "like" an explanation that even I wouldn't know what they were trying to say, if I hadn't had it explained to me, then was in such disbelief, I spent a day reading up on all that, so I already knew of the effect, and what causes/worsens it? It's such a grammar and spelling trainwreck, I bet most who read it, wonder "just how drunk and brain damaged was the UFO chasing, conspiracy theorist, who came up with that?" Even your equating the skin effect with egress shows those who don't already understand it, will misunderstand the attempted conveyance of it. If you find an untainted version, that at least some can understand, and not be so easily misunderstood, I'd post the link here, but not the whole science article. I had a cox tech try to tell me that I couldn't use splitters that had the ports enter at different angles, because the signal traveled in a spiral, on the outside of the cable, and a splitter without all the ports on the same plane would bend the spiral, and ruin the signal. I peeled the back off a splitter he insisted was the "right" one, and showed him how the center conductor made a sharp 90 degree bend, before the solder joint on the board inside. I then peeled open the one he claimed was no good, and low and behold, no 90 degree bends inside, thanks to the ports being at 90 degree angles on the outside. Man, did he just get real quiet and spaced-out, after that. I knew sharp bends of coax were bad for the signal, but was glad he told me his misconveyed version, as that's how I learned why copper-clad coax wasn't the "junk" I believed it to be. The issue with sharp bends with coax is twofold: 1. The signal gets distorted and starts reflecting inside the shielding. 2. The internal insulation between the conductor and shielding will distort, permanently (and the conductor, as well), making the conductor too close to the shielding at the bend. Misinformation I'll correct: 1. Size of conductor does matter, as do all the specifics of a proper cable for the job. 2. The shielding is actually the mylar foil bimaterial layer. The braid mesh is mostly reinforcement, helps keep the cable from becoming internally damaged, helps it hold it's shape, takes on the stress of hanging/pulling, and what does the grounding. It does have some shielding value, especially when the braid is very high strand count, then more along with each additional mylar-foil layer, and each additional braid band. Really old cable, was like fishnet nylons, having only enough braid to meet the grounding requirements, and covering very little area, leaving that job to the mylar-foil, but still making the cable strong enough to hang between the pole and house.
> 
> You did get the part about AC and analog versus digital mostly correct. What you missed was how the coax has inductance and capacitance, and running parallel to AC wiring can actually create AC current in/on the coax. I have a run that I had to discontinue, as it ran parallel to the backbone of the AC romex bundle, and inducted enough current to give you an AC tickle if you touched the center, and/or a capacitive jolt, when doing something like changing a splitter, and your hand became a ground path. EDIT/ADD: Solid copper core cable tends to get the core conductor bent, no matter how carefully you try to work with it. You think "oops, I'll just straighten that kink out". Nope, once it's bent, it's bent, no matter how straight the outside looks. This is made worse by foam insulated solid copper core, as the foam has "give" to it, and you wind up with imperceivable bends, masked by the foam, plus it's no longer centered to the shielding. "Satellite coax" tends to be solid copper, foam, and mylar-foil only, with no braid band, and thin jacketing. Worst of all worlds, when used for CATV.


Just because you don't understand it, like brain surgery, doesn't mean it isn't true.

Skin effect is dependent on the frequency and once it's too high and starting to ride on the outer edges of the center conductor and even the shielding/braid, then no, the size of the center conductor doesn't matter at that point because the signal isn't even using it anymore. The size does matter in the sense that the threshold at which the frequency starts exhibiting the skin effect is lower though. This is the reason why, once you get to a high enough frequency, that you no longer can use coaxial cable of any type, you need waveguides at that point.

I didn't "miss" the inductance and capacitance issue. I just chose not to include it.


----------



## atandon

Folks, very confused by conflicting info online

I have a base roamio connected to my home router via Ethernet
While the mini in the other room has only coax access
Do I need a moca adapter in this scenario?


----------



## buckyswider

yes you will need an external bridge, the base roamio doesn't have the built-in MoCA bridge like the plus and pro


----------



## atandon

buckyswider said:


> yes you will need an external bridge, the base roamio doesn't have the built-in MoCA bridge like the plus and pro


So I did try connecting the actiontec adapter
I disconnected the coax to my modem and connected it to the adapter. Then I connected another coax out of it to the modem. Then I connected the modem to the router via Ethernet
Also connected an Ethernet cable from the adapter to a lan port on the router

Does this sound ok?

I connected the roamio base to the router via Ethernet
Or do I need another adapter here?

Now with this setup, Internet works just fine

Though the mini does not detect a moca network
Also, is the coax light on the adapter supposed to light up?


----------



## buckyswider

not a clue, sorry. I just learned about MoCA oh, 29 hours ago.  

That does to seem to be what is depicted on page 1 of this thread. But if you already have a splitter before the modem, I would think it would be best to just hang the bridge off of one of the splitter ports.


----------



## atandon

buckyswider said:


> not a clue, sorry. I just learned about MoCA oh, 29 hours ago.
> 
> That does to seem to be what is depicted on page 1 of this thread. But if you already have a splitter before the modem, I would think it would be best to just hang the bridge off of one of the splitter ports.


I do have it hanging off one the splitter ie cable from wall to splitter which splits into 2 with one going to the adapter and other to tivo box


----------



## ukwildcat4life

atandon said:


> So I did try connecting the actiontec adapter
> I disconnected the coax to my modem and connected it to the adapter. Then I connected another coax out of it to the modem. Then I connected the modem to the router via Ethernet
> Also connected an Ethernet cable from the adapter to a lan port on the router
> 
> Does this sound ok?
> 
> I connected the roamio base to the router via Ethernet
> Or do I need another adapter here?
> 
> Now with this setup, Internet works just fine
> 
> Though the mini does not detect a moca network
> Also, is the coax light on the adapter supposed to light up?


I'm fairly new to MoCA and Tivo myself but have learned a lot from a few knowledgable folks in this forum. First since the base Roamio doesn't have MoCA built in you will need two MoCA adapters. From what you have described, you connected the first adapter to your modem/router correctly ( that creates your MoCA network) next you will need to connect another MoCA adapter to your base Roamio ( this will bridge the MoCA connection) and for the Mini all you will need to do is just connect the Coax cable to it ( the mini has MoCA built into it).....and to answer your other question " does the coax light up on the MoCA adapter? yes it should light up on both adapters once you have everything in place. I would suggest you connect all of your MoCA adapters, etc and once you have everything connected I would do a power cycle of your cable modem/router/adapter , then on the base Roamio I would power cycle the Roamio and adapter.....then last connect your mini to the coax cable coming from the wall and power cycle it....make sure you go into the Roamio and Mini's network settings and connect via MoCA....on the base Roamio it will say connected via ethernet since it doesn't have MoCA built in and its acting as your MoCA bridge. On the Mini, however, since it does have MoCA built in whenever you go into your Mini's network settings it will give you the option to connect via MoCA and thats what you need to do and once you power cycle it it should see your Roamio (host DVR).... once everything is up and working you should buy a POE/MoCA filter and install that at your cable drop where your cable first enters your home ( point of entry) or you could install it just before your first splitter..... make sure your cable splitters are rated at least a 1Ghz.... hope this helps... below are diagrams of how you should connect your MoCa adapters to your Roamio base and to your cable modem/router ( that's exactly how I connected mine )...

[media]https://www.tivo.com/assets/images_assets/CreateMoCA_Adapter.jpg[/media]
https://www.tivo.com/assets/images_assets/JoinMoCA_Roamio.png


----------



## atandon

Thanks ukwildcatforlife
Will give this a try tomorrow
Wish I had ordered that adapter 2 pack from tivo


----------



## ukwildcat4life

atandon said:


> Thanks ukwildcatforlife
> Will give this a try tomorrow
> Wish I had ordered that adapter 2 pack from tivo


You're welcome.....let us know how it goes and if you need anymore help there are some knowledgeable folks in here that will chime in and help ....


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

atandon said:


> So I did try connecting the actiontec adapter
> I disconnected the coax to my modem and connected it to the adapter. Then I connected another coax out of it to the modem. Then I connected the modem to the router via Ethernet
> Also connected an Ethernet cable from the adapter to a lan port on the router
> 
> Does this sound ok?
> 
> I connected the roamio base to the router via Ethernet
> Or do I need another adapter here?
> 
> Now with this setup, Internet works just fine
> 
> Though the mini does not detect a moca network
> Also, is the coax light on the adapter supposed to light up?


You only need 1 moca adapter.

You don't need a second adapter unless you want the Roamio to be on the moca network also. But that is optional. The ethernet connection to the router is fine if that's what you want.

What you described about your adapter setup sounds right. The moca network SHOULD be working. The next step would be to look at the troubleshooting section at the end of the first post.

You may have to reboot everything (including modem and router) to get things working (if you haven't already). The coax light will light up once a moca connection exists, so it might not light up unless/until it can actually find the Mini.

Are any splitters really old or under 1000 MHz (1GHz)? Are there any amps being used? Is the coax old or damaged anywhere? All things to look at. You may want to consider a POE filter as described in the first post too.


----------



## ukwildcat4life

BigJimOutlaw said:


> You only need 1 moca adapter.
> 
> You don't need a second adapter unless you want the Roamio to be on the moca network also. But that is optional. The ethernet connection to the router is fine if that's what you want.
> 
> What you described about your adapter setup sounds right. The next step would be to look at the troubleshooting section at the end. You may want to consider a POE filter as described in the first post too.
> 
> You may also have to reboot everything (including modem and router) to get things working. The coax light will light up once a moca connection exists. So it might not light up unless/until it finds the Mini.
> 
> Are any splitters under 1000 MHz (1GHz)? Are there any amps being used? Is the coax super-old or damaged anywhere? All things to look at.


Thanks for correcting me on that BigJim....I misread and thought he wanted his Roamio to join the MoCA network.....otherwise looks like everything else we mentioned is on que.....


----------



## nooneuknow

HarperVision said:


> Just because you don't understand it, like brain surgery, doesn't mean it isn't true.


As usual, lately, what I was really trying to say flew right over your head. *I do understand it*, and have for years now, the way the signal travels on the copper cladding surface, and how many variables can saturate the cable's capacity, or exceed it, causing a myriad of problems. There are variables that can limit the expected/rated capacity (and actual performance/reliability), such as the quality of cable, damage, degradation, improper installation, and environment. The less technical aspects, and cable design parts, I have understood for much longer, than the rest of this.

What I was trying to say, was that the explanation you liked, and quoted from an outside source, then expanded upon, was not only difficult to read (likely even more so for those who don't already understand what it's about), due to grammar/spelling/etc., but also not completely correct.

Every thread I have read today is riddled with you arguing with others. If not you, it's Captainbob arguing with others. To complete the trifecta, there's you and Captainbob arguing with each other. I've seen a lot of job title dropping going on in many of the multi-thread arguments/debates going on. Unless it's Dan203, most lose credibility, to many, dropping titles.

Whatever... Out of respect to the OP's polite request, let's dumb things back down, and stick to what it takes to make MoCA work for newbies/dummies.


----------



## ukwildcat4life

Can anyone tell me why my MoCA PHY rates decrease whenever I install a POE filter on the outside of my home at the demarcation point? I thought by installing the POE filter my PHY rates should either remain the same or increase ? Not decrease...any input is appreciated.


----------



## nooneuknow

ukwildcat4life said:


> Can anyone tell me why my MoCA PHY rates decrease whenever I install a POE filter on the outside of my home at the demarcation point? I thought by installing the POE filter my PHY rates should either remain the same or increase ? Not decrease...any input is appreciated.


Perhaps a bad PoE filter? There will be a few defective ones, or defective batches, of almost any product. Most mfg don't test each one of a device like a PoE filter. They just test 1 out of every 1000, or some other number. If it passes, all the rest made before that test, and after a previous passing test, get shipped. That doesn't insure against them just happening to test only good ones, and missing the bad ones.

If you could provide everything printed on the filter label, a picture showing the whole label, and a link to the product page from where you got it from, that could help. Perhaps you got one that isn't the correct product for the job.

What you describe should never happen, if the filter is of good quality, the right one for the job, and not defective.

For now, if you need to take it out, you really don't create anything more than a slight possibility that a neighbor might have access to your MoCA network, and/or you to theirs. Most modern MoCA devices include some form of protection against this, leaving the main point of the PoE filter to do the opposite of what you are experiencing.


----------



## buckyswider

Interesting. I just ordered a MoCA filter just for the heck of it. I think all of my neighbors within close proximity are fios, but if it helps signals I figured why not.

So I never knew to look at the rates. What are "good" rates? I'm seeing fluctuations around 240-250Mbps for both Tx/Rx. I will compare that (along with a broadband speedtest (currently 121 down, 12 up) for good measure) after I put the filter in. 

Holy nested parentheses batman


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## BigJimOutlaw

buckyswider said:


> So I never knew to look at the rates. What are "good" rates? I'm seeing fluctuations around 240-250Mbps for both Tx/Rx. I will compare that (along with a broadband speedtest (currently 121 down, 12 up) for good measure) after I put the filter in.


PHY rates over 200 are solid. Tivo says 180 or more, but I'm a stickler. Out of a maximum of 280-ish, 240 is gold.


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## aaronwt

BigJimOutlaw said:


> PHY rates over 200 are solid. Tivo says 180 or more, but I'm a stickler. Out of a maximum of 280-ish, 240 is gold.


What causes it to be so much lower? My PHY rates for my five MoCA devices fluctuate between 275Mbps and 290Mbps. When I switched to a 1.2Ghz splitter that did increase several Mbps from when I was using a 1GHz splitter. Of course the max speeds for each device are much lower than that anyway.


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## BigJimOutlaw

aaronwt said:


> What causes it to be so much lower? My PHY rates for my five MoCA devices fluctuate between 275Mbps and 290Mbps. When I switched to a 1.2Ghz splitter that did increase several Mbps from when I was using a 1GHz splitter. Of course the max speeds for each device are much lower than that anyway.


An old, inadequate outdoor splitter was the difference between 165 and 230 for one of my device locations. PHY rates are impacted by the stuff you'd expect. Quality of the splitters and coax, good connections, coax length, the # of splitters passed through to reach a target, the objects on the lines (amps, barrel connectors, POE filters), etc.

Edit: I should also add that devices generating/powering the signal have some variances as well.


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## ukwildcat4life

nooneuknow said:


> Perhaps a bad PoE filter? There will be a few defective ones, or defective batches, of almost any product. Most mfg don't test each one of a device like a PoE filter. They just test 1 out of every 1000, or some other number. If it passes, all the rest made before that test, and after a previous passing test, get shipped. That doesn't insure against them just happening to test only good ones, and missing the bad ones.
> 
> If you could provide everything printed on the filter label, a picture showing the whole label, and a link to the product page from where you got it from, that could help. Perhaps you got one that isn't the correct product for the job.
> 
> What you describe should never happen, if the filter is of good quality, the right one for the job, and not defective.
> 
> For now, if you need to take it out, you really don't create anything more than a slight possibility that a neighbor might have access to your MoCA network, and/or you to theirs. Most modern MoCA devices include some form of protection against this, leaving the main point of the PoE filter to do the opposite of what you are experiencing.


Thanks for the advice...what happened was I recently bought a new MoCA adapter kit ( Motorola Surfboard SBM 1000) that kit came with everything needed including a MoCA filter...the motorola adapters have given me better PHY rates than the action tech adapters that I once used not to mention they tend to run much cooler.....maybe the MoCA filter that was included in that kit is not up to standards.... maybe I should order a POE filter directly from Tivo and see if that makes a difference......good thing is my PHY rates with or without the filter stay well above 200... I just couldn't understand why those PHY rates drop 10 digits or more when inserting the filter..... without the filter my TX Rates on both nodes are around 280 and the RX PhY rates are around 260; when the filter was inserted those values dropped a little over 10 digits... my coax cabling is fairly new and beyond the point of demarcation only one 3 way splitter is being used for my cable runs; that splitter is rated at 1 Ghz so I think all of my equipment is fine.... I will buy a new filter from Tivo and report back. Thanks again!


----------



## ukwildcat4life

BigJimOutlaw said:


> PHY rates over 200 are solid. Tivo says 180 or more, but I'm a stickler. Out of a maximum of 280-ish, 240 is gold.


Thanks for the info! in that case my PHY rates are fine with or without the POE filter.


----------



## nooneuknow

@ukwildcat4life:

If I would have known the difference was so minimal, and the reduced PHY rate still good, I'd have said to "be a good neighbor" and just leave the filter in (or get another one to see if the results change).

Letting your MoCA signals egress into the main cable network can cause issues for neighbors (with or without them using MoCA), and ingress MoCA from a neighbor can cause strange and intermittent issues, hard to track down.

I usually remember to include the fact that MoCA from one residence can ingress/egress to another, besides the somewhat outdated concerns about being able to access another's network.

All this can be avoided using a PoE filter. Why one would drop the PHY rate, I don't know, other than what I posted before.

I'd just like to correct my prior stance that was more like "No big deal if you leave the PoE filter off the actual PoE". That's really not the best advice.


----------



## ukwildcat4life

nooneuknow said:


> @ukwildcat4life:
> 
> If I would have known the difference was so minimal, and the reduced PHY rate still good, I'd have said to "be a good neighbor" and just leave the filter in (or get another one to see if the results change).
> 
> Letting your MoCA signals egress into the main cable network can cause issues for neighbors (with or without them using MoCA), and ingress MoCA from a neighbor can cause strange and intermittent issues, hard to track down.
> 
> I usually remember to include the fact that MoCA from one residence can ingress/egress to another, besides the somewhat outdated concerns about being able to access another's network.
> 
> All this can be avoided using a PoE filter. Why one would drop the PHY rate, I don't know, other than what I posted before.
> 
> I'd just like to correct my prior stance that was more like "No big deal if you leave the PoE filter off the actual PoE". That's really not the best advice.


I should have given more information.....I agree with you and will keep a POE filter installed but I'm beginning to think what the problem lies with that particular POE filter that was included in the adapter kit... the setup instructions advise installing that filter directly to a cable modem gateway that does not have MoCA built into it so maybe that filter wasn't intended to be inserted at the point of entry but I thought a MoCA filter was MoCA filter? correct me if I'm wrong.....but like you said it very well could be as simple as a defective filter... I will buy a new one from Tivo and see if that makes a difference ; either way though my rates are sufficient ; I just didn't expect a decrease in the rates after inserting the filter and couldn't figure out why.... thanks again for the advice and for taking the time to help troubleshoot....


----------



## nooneuknow

ukwildcat4life said:


> I should have given more information.....I agree with you and will keep a POE filter installed but I'm beginning to think what the problem lies with that particular POE filter that was included in the adapter kit... the setup instructions advise installing that filter directly to a cable modem gateway that does not have MoCA built into it so maybe that filter wasn't intended to be inserted at the point of entry but I thought a MoCA filter was MoCA filter? correct me if I'm wrong.....but like you said it very well could be as simple as a defective filter... I will buy a new one from Tivo and see if that makes a difference ; either way though my rates are sufficient ; I just didn't expect a decrease in the rates after inserting the filter and couldn't figure out why.... thanks again for the advice and for taking the time to help troubleshoot....


Meh, I'm equally to blame for not asking how big the difference was, before diving in.

They were just being thorough by including a PoE filter for your CM/GMG, just in case it didn't have one built in. Some have had to install one there, for just that reason. The mfg probably saves more by including the filter (the cheapest one they can buy in bulk), than accepting returns, when their kit adversely affects a CM that worked fine before the kit was installed. If your CM/CMG doesn't specify it has a filter, then you might consider using that one where they said to place it, unless that causes problems you didn't have before. You might even find by having one at PoE, and one at the CM, you get an improvement. There's only one way to find out. Most don't bother with one on their CM/CMG, unless adding MoCA causes issues with it. A good one shouldn't have negative effects.

For general retail MoCA (even some MSO MoCA) purposes, a MoCA PoE filter is usually the same specs. The exceptions are out of the scope of what need be covered here. As long as yours came with a retail device/kit, or from a MSO (cable provider) also using the band retail MoCa devices use, you'll be fine (if not defective).

Some test a filter by putting it on their CM, which they know doesn't require it, and if the "after" values and results go downhill more than slightly, or the CM quits working, they know it's screwing with non-MoCA frequencies, and shouldn't be trusted. To verify it blocks MoCA, they put it onto a device that uses it, then verify it ceases to work (or barely works).

Standard issue Cox MoCA PoE filter (same as retail) specs are:
Reject band: 1125-3000MHz
Pass band:5-1002(or 1000)MHz

As you can see by this, the filters start hard blocking at 1125MHz, while there is a band that has no designation between the pass & reject. One can expect this means that this mid-band of 120-123MHz gets filtered at an increasing level, from low-to-high, until it hits the hard block/reject point, where nothing gets through, at all. If it was as cut & dry as pass or reject only, there would be no gap between the two. Cox learned the hard way, with CM traps, for those with internet-only service, that having "hard stops", without some wiggle room, using "soft stops", they'd find themselves being forced to move carrier frequencies only within the specs of their traps, or keep changing all their traps (which they had to, within a year after first using such traps). Traps are similar to filters, in determining what passes without loss, what passes with some loss, and what is fully stopped from passing, period.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The difference between a 260 and 280 PHY rate is probably less than 10 mbps of actual data transfer loss. The filter shouldn't make the number go down, but the dropoff fortunately isn't hurting too much at those high numbers. But eeking out as much performance as you can is a time-honored manly tradition.


----------



## ukwildcat4life

nooneuknow said:


> Meh, I'm equally to blame for not asking how big the difference was, before diving in.
> 
> They were just being thorough by including a PoE filter for your CM/GMG, just in case it didn't have one built in. Some have had to install one there, for just that reason. The mfg probably saves more by including the filter (the cheapest one they can buy in bulk), than accepting returns, when their kit adversely affects a CM that worked fine before the kit was installed. If your CM/CMG doesn't specify it has a filter, then you might consider using that one where they said to place it, unless that causes problems you didn't have before. You might even find by having one at PoE, and one at the CM, you get an improvement. There's only one way to find out. Most don't bother with one on their CM/CMG, unless adding MoCA causes issues with it. A good one shouldn't have negative effects.
> 
> For general retail MoCA (even some MSO MoCA) purposes, a MoCA PoE filter is usually the same specs. The exceptions are out of the scope of what need be covered here. As long as yours came with a retail device/kit, or from a MSO (cable provider) also using the band retail MoCa devices use, you'll be fine (if not defective).
> 
> Some test a filter by putting it on their CM, which they know doesn't require it, and if the "after" values and results go downhill more than slightly, or the CM quits working, they know it's screwing with non-MoCA frequencies, and shouldn't be trusted. To verify it blocks MoCA, they put it onto a device that uses it, then verify it ceases to work (or barely works).
> 
> Standard issue Cox MoCA PoE filter (same as retail) specs are:
> Reject band: 1125-3000MHz
> Pass band:5-1002(or 1000)MHz
> 
> As you can see by this, the filters start hard blocking at 1125MHz, while there is a band that has no designation between the pass & reject. One can expect this means that this mid-band of 120-123MHz gets filtered at an increasing level, from low-to-high, until it hits the hard block/reject point, where nothing gets through, at all. If it was as cut & dry as pass or reject only, there would be no gap between the two. Cox learned the hard way, with CM traps, for those with internet-only service, that having "hard stops", without some wiggle room, using "soft stops", they'd find themselves being forced to move carrier frequencies only within the specs of their traps, or keep changing all their traps (which they had to, within a year after first using such traps). Traps are similar to filters, in determining what passes without loss, what passes with some loss, and what is fully stopped from passing, period.


Thanks for the help and suggestions. Here is what I've done . Since I had 2 of those motorola MoCA kits I had 2 identical MoCA filters from them to work with. Whenever I connected one directly to my Arris CMG it would not sync up ; I lost my internet , digital phone, etc. I removed the filter and all was well again. At this point I didn't have a filter installed at my point of entry. I took notice of my PHY rates and all nodes were at 280 and a little above . Next I installed the filter at my POE and I kid you not my PHY rate on one of the nodes fell into the 240's so that's more of a drop than I initially reported. The only thing written on those filters is LPF-1000 M3 in red letters. What is going on here?


----------



## ukwildcat4life

I wanted to add that another odd thing I just noticed was when I looked at my MoCA network values it shows there is an" unknown error" under the MoCA Link History? never seen anything like that until I installed that MoCA filter at my POE.......I'm beginning to think these flters that came with these kits are of low quality or incompatible...


----------



## nooneuknow

ukwildcat4life said:


> Thanks for the help and suggestions. Here is what I've done . Since I had 2 of those motorola MoCA kits I had 2 identical MoCA filters from them to work with. Whenever I connected one directly to my Arris CMG it would not sync up ; I lost my internet , digital phone, etc. I removed the filter and all was well again. At this point I didn't have a filter installed at my point of entry. I took notice of my PHY rates and all nodes were at 280 and a little above . Next I installed the filter at my POE and I kid you not my PHY rate on one of the nodes fell into the 240's so that's more of a drop than I initially reported. The only thing written on those filters is LPF-1000 M3 in red letters. What is going on here?


A simple Google search on that lead here: http://www.soontai.com/MoCA-LPF-M3.html

My first thoughts are:

1. Made in Taiwan, by a company I've never heard of.
2. Maybe a bad batch went out.
3. The insertion/return loss and impedance may taking a borderline signal strength, and attenuating it to a level that causes noticeable loss of performance. The splitters you are using might be lossy, and the filter just exposes that.
4. I'd try a reputable brand, like antronix, or any other brand, just to see what happens.

Copy & Paste from mfg website:

MoCA POE Filter

Features
* CE Approved, Class A RFI Shielding
* Small and Light Weight
* SMD, High Stability
* Wide Band, Up to 1GHz
* High Rejection : 50dB(typ)
* Low Loss
* Excellent Return Loss
* Waterproof
* Suitable for MoCA, CATV, Cablenet
and other communication systems

Also Recommended
High Performance MoCA POE Filter
MoCA Products
More ... : Filter Series

Introduction
This is an all newly designed mini size MoCA POE filter. It has excellent specifications, dimensions of only 13mm x 46mm and a weight of only 23g.
It is best suitable for use in many communications applications, such as MoCA, DOCSIS3.0, CATV, FiOS, Cablenet and other RF systems.

Items
Model	Pass Band	Model	Pass Band
LPF - 560M3	5 - 560MHz	LPF - 680M3	5 - 680MHz
LPF - 750M3	5 - 750MHz	LPF - 860M3	5 - 860MHz
LPF - 1000M3	5 - 1000MHz	LPF - 1002M3	5 - 1002MHz
LPF - 1225M3	5 - 1225MHz 
* We can design other models according to your specifications.

General Specifications

Item	LPF - 1000M3
Impedance	75 ohm
Pass Band	5 - 1000MHz
Pass Band Insertion Loss	0.5dB (typ) / 2.5dB (max)
Return Loss	14dB (typ) / 12dB (min)
Stop Band	1125 - 3000MHz
Rejection(1125-2000MHz)	50dB (typ) / 40dB (min)
Rejection(2001-3000MHz)	60dB (typ) / 50dB (min)
Dimensions	13(¢) x 46(L) mm
Net Weight	23g


----------



## ukwildcat4life

nooneuknow said:


> A simple Google search on that lead here: http://www.soontai.com/MoCA-LPF-M3.html
> 
> My first thoughts are:
> 
> 1. Made in Taiwan, by a company I've never heard of.
> 2. Maybe a bad batch went out.
> 3. The insertion/return loss and impedance may taking a borderline signal strength, and attenuating it to a level that causes noticeable loss of performance. The splitters you are using might be lossy, and the filter just exposes that.
> 4. I'd try a reputable brand, like antronix, or any other brand, just to see what happens.
> 
> Copy & Paste from mfg website:
> 
> MoCA POE Filter
> 
> Features
> * CE Approved, Class A RFI Shielding
> * Small and Light Weight
> * SMD, High Stability
> * Wide Band, Up to 1GHz
> * High Rejection : 50dB(typ)
> * Low Loss
> * Excellent Return Loss
> * Waterproof
> * Suitable for MoCA, CATV, Cablenet
> and other communication systems
> 
> Also Recommended
> High Performance MoCA POE Filter
> MoCA Products
> More ... : Filter Series
> 
> Introduction
> This is an all newly designed mini size MoCA POE filter. It has excellent specifications, dimensions of only 13mm x 46mm and a weight of only 23g.
> It is best suitable for use in many communications applications, such as MoCA, DOCSIS3.0, CATV, FiOS, Cablenet and other RF systems.
> 
> Items
> Model	Pass Band	Model	Pass Band
> LPF - 560M3	5 - 560MHz	LPF - 680M3	5 - 680MHz
> LPF - 750M3	5 - 750MHz	LPF - 860M3	5 - 860MHz
> LPF - 1000M3	5 - 1000MHz	LPF - 1002M3	5 - 1002MHz
> LPF - 1225M3	5 - 1225MHz
> * We can design other models according to your specifications.
> 
> General Specifications
> 
> Item	LPF - 1000M3
> Impedance	75 ohm
> Pass Band	5 - 1000MHz
> Pass Band Insertion Loss	0.5dB (typ) / 2.5dB (max)
> Return Loss	14dB (typ) / 12dB (min)
> Stop Band	1125 - 3000MHz
> Rejection(1125-2000MHz)	50dB (typ) / 40dB (min)
> Rejection(2001-3000MHz)	60dB (typ) / 50dB (min)
> Dimensions	13(¢) x 46(L) mm
> Net Weight	23g


Thanks for the information and suggestions.... I will definitely order a new POE filter directly from Tivo and as far as the splitters that came with the kit; the brand of them are Holland and they're rated 5-2150 Mhz so are you suggesting that I replace them as well? the kit came with two of those and I have them in use at each adapter... as far as my main splitter being used that the cable company installed; its under my house and when you and I troubleshoot in the past we concluded it was ok as its rated 1Ghz.......those are the only splitters in use.... if you think I should replace the two Holland splitters that came with the MoCA adapter kit if you could post me a link to what type I should get I'd appreciate it; I think you said antronix? thanks again!


----------



## nooneuknow

ukwildcat4life said:


> Thanks for the information and suggestions.... I will definitely order a new POE filter directly from Tivo and as far as the splitters that came with the kit; the brand of them are Holland and they're rated 5-2150 Mhz so are you suggesting that I replace them as well? the kit came with two of those and I have them in use at each adapter... as far as my main splitter being used that the cable company installed; its under my house and when you and I troubleshoot in the past we concluded it was ok as its rated 1Ghz.......those are the only splitters in use.... if you think I should replace the two Holland splitters that came with the MoCA adapter kit if you could post me a link to what type I should get I'd appreciate it; I think you said antronix? thanks again!


We never determined your existing under-house splitter was anything more than "adequate", so long as it worked for you, and what you had at the time. Any splitter that is exposed to moisture/weather tends to degrade. At the time, things were working well for you. So, I just said to leave it alone, rather than fix something that wasn't broken.

If keeping the kit, I'd match all your splitters to be the same 2150MHz rating (and brand, if possible), and consider the age of the main one, when thinking that through.

I just dug up the Newegg page on your Motorola SBM 1000 MoCA kit. 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16825390003

There were 5 total reviews, all 5-egg reviews on how great the product is, but also some "cons" listed due to it being such an "in its own class" product. It's intolerant of splitters rated less than 2GHz, and even old coax, if you look around the web for your kit, and what the specs are, and what the reviews say about it.

I don't know what led you to make the change. I don't see the item in-stock, at Newegg, and there are notes of it may not ever being back in stock. It looks like a discontinued close-out/clearance product. Perhaps its inability to cope with old coax and splitters less than 2GHz, combined with the normal, original price, being insanely high, is why it only has 5 reviews on Newegg from the whole time they have had it listed there, all from people that got it for the $70 fire sale price.

You needed a candle, and bought a flamethrower. Given the performance constraints of TiVo's MoCA revision, and the extreme nature of the product, I don't know what led you to buy it, other than price.

As far as I am concerned, if it says "MoCA", but requires 2GHz+ splitters, and coax that can cope with 2GHz, it's not what MoCA is about. MoCA was designed for using what you have (within reason).

I doubt you'll have anything but headaches with that product, so long as you try to use anything old, or existing, with it. If you were building a house, and planning for using such an extreme product, that's different. But, even then, you aren't going to make your MoCA any faster than the slowest link.

My advice, stick with the ActionTec adapters, and realize that you can't strap a turbocharger to your coax and get faster speeds than the MoCA revision TiVo uses, even if you replaced every splitter and coax run.


----------



## atandon

Update

Folks, I was able to get moca working

Made a bunch of changes

1) Connected a POE filter where the cable enters the home
2) Re arranged how cables split to the different rooms. Made sure that the 2 legs (one on which the moca adapter sits and the one on which the mini sits) have the same root

Now onwards to another thread to debug why the RF remote loses RF connectivity once in a while


----------



## hpeter

hi, when i put in my moca, the coax light won't come on. actiontec thinks the splitter could be the problem. can you tell me how to setup a network using powerline (what model to get)? i have xl4 running (in my bedroom), router (in a different room) and want to get my mini setup. thanks.


----------



## ukwildcat4life

hpeter said:


> hi, when i put in my moca, the coax light won't come on. actiontec thinks the splitter could be the problem. can you tell me how to setup a network using powerline (what model to get)? i have xl4 running (in my bedroom), router (in a different room) and want to get my mini setup. thanks.


Hi there; could you give us more specifics on your MoCA setup? are your splitters rated at least 1GHz? Is your router in the same room as your Mini? Tivo doesn't recommend using powerline adapters but before I got my MoCA going I used powerline and didn't have any problems with it but then again I didn't really use it long enough to make a fair evaluation.... I have read from others on here that use Powerline adapters and have no issues with it but then you will read that others do have issues; powerline is prone to a lot of problems usually from old wiring, etc.... if your house is fairly new and if your wiring is not too old and up to par powerline adapters will work..... you would get better and more solid/reliable results though from MoCA if you could get that going; don't give up on it; there are lots of knowledgeable folks on here that will troubleshoot with you..... if you do decide to go with powerline, I bought the Netgear powerline 500; model number is XAVB5201; I bought those from staples and they worked fine....you will need to plug one of the powerline adapters into the wall outlet at your router and run an ethernet cable from one of the ethernet ports on the back of your router to it... then you hook the other one up at your mini or wherever you need it......when setting them up all of the lights should illuminate solid green which shows you are getting a solid connection......hope that helps but feel free to give us more details on your particular MoCA setup if you'd like to further troubleshoot....


----------



## hpeter

Hi, thanks for the reply. i connected the moca to router and modem per diagram shown in the first message by bigjim. i did not connect any moca to xl4/turn table (should i?). i saw coax light is off and XL4 can't find the moca network. So, i called actiontec and we determined the moca is working fine. The previous owner of my house has both cable and dish running at the same time. So, we have two sets of coax lines. Since i only have TWC, they connected all the coax lines together. i honestly have no idea where to start to fix the moca issue. Any additional thoughts?


----------



## ukwildcat4life

hpeter said:


> Hi, thanks for the reply. i connected the moca to router and modem per diagram shown in the first message by bigjim. i did not connect any moca to xl4/turn table (should i?). i saw coax light is off and XL4 can't find the moca network. So, i called actiontec and we determined the moca is working fine. The previous owner of my house has both cable and dish running at the same time. So, we have two sets of coax lines. Since i only have TWC, they connected all the coax lines together. i honestly have no idea where to start to fix the moca issue. Any additional thoughts?


From what I understand all you need is the one MoCA adapter that you have connected to your modem/router...the XL4 should have MoCA built into it so all you need to do is just connect your coax cable to the XL4..... did you go into your network settings on your XL4 and change your connection type to MoCA? if not here are the instructions from Tivo's website....... go to 'Settings' > 'Network' > 'Change Network Settings.' Then choose 'Connect using MoCA.'

Also have you installed a POE filter and have you checked your splitters to see if they are rated at least 1GHZ? are you using any tuning adapters, amps, etc in your setup?


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## hpeter

TWC put in a Antronix VRA900B amplifier to connect all the lines together. It has 8 outputs and from what i can tell it should work with MOCA. TWC also put in a separate POE with the modem. Other than the VRA 900B, i could not see any splitter. Do i need to put a MOCA before the VRA 900B or with the outputs? Thanks.


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## nooneuknow

I don't have the time to handle all the threads I usually juggle. But, I highly suggest anybody using any form of an amplifier (or shopping for one) examine this literature, and try to learn about what the awesome diagrams, schematics, and what the "dumbed-down" marketing parts talk about, and visualize.

My new "RTFM/SOAK" link, courtesy of member "mulliganman": http://pctcorporate.com/real-time-dox/hfc-networks/amplifiers.html

If you can grasp the knowledge contained within, you should never need to ask another question here. 

Seriously, though, this is a great source of all you could want to know, plus all the things you didn't know, that you would want to know.

These are all-in-one type amps, some made for MoCA. You can get the same results without having to have the amp, PoE filter, bypass, and splitters, all in one device. They say integrating it all eliminates added points of failure. Only problem is, if one part integrated goes bad, you must replace the whole device.


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## swak

nooneuknow said:


> If your splitters are rated at least 860MHz, and (big and) of good quality (plus made for digital signals), they should work. Most, including myself, say to use 1GHz splitters. Some say to use higher rated ones. Going any higher than 1.2GHz ones can be a bad idea. But, MoCA was designed to work with as low as existing 860MHz splitters, not all these "MoCA-enabled/enhanced" ones that are showing up.
> 
> The solid copper core coax is not worth the premium. It's only required for satellite, due to the voltages that coexist to run things.


Update: I replaced my old 8-way splitter with a new one and now have two minis on working on mocha (3 more minis on order at old pricing). Also, my old rg59 cables are working fine but, planning to replace them soon with rg6.


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## hpeter

The diagram looks great except not "dumbed-down" enough for me. BTW, TWC did use a CISCO TA1560 and connect the coax out to Tivo directly. I just want make sure i correct it correctly. I have a XL4. You think i should put a splitter w. POE between the wall and TA. Then connect the other end of the spiltter to TIVO XL4 directly. Anything between the TA and Tivo? Thanks.


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## HarperVision

hpeter said:


> The diagram looks great except not "dumbed-down" enough for me. BTW, TWC did use a CISCO TA1560 and connect the coax out to Tivo directly. I just want make sure i correct it correctly. I have a XL4. You think i should put a splitter w. POE between the wall and TA. Then connect the other end of the spiltter to TIVO XL4 directly. Anything between the TA and Tivo? Thanks.


Yes that may be prudent. Only thing that needs to be between TA and TiVo is the USB cable.


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## nooneuknow

As my current signature states: "Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!"

This is solely because the built in amplifier/equalizer inside Cisco TAs will tend to have one of two issues, sometimes both:

1. The Amp/EQ will block MoCA from being able to pass between IN & OUT.
2. The lack of a built-in PoE filter in the TA will make the TA malfunction, when MoCA signals are allowed to get inside.

If you use a drop-amp, the amp should be placed as far upstream of anywhere MoCA needs to pass through (ideally, right at the first connection, where the first splitter would go, if not using an amp), with the PoE filter placed on the amp IN port (for an amp with more than one OUT port), or placed on the OUT port of the amp (for amps with a single output).

You can wind up needing a PoE filter in any ones of these places:

1. True Point of Entry
2. Your Cable Modem
3. Before any coax carrying MoCA enters any amp (best placement here varies).
4. After a 2-way splitter, before one output enters a tuning adapter (TA).
5. On any device that doesn't use MoCA, which starts misbehaving when MoCA is added to the coax signal
6. Anyplace MoCA doesn't need to reach (to improve efficiency by blocking, and reflecting the MoCA back)

Actual MoCA amps do exist. But, that's all they are designed to amplify, passing-through the other signals, as-is.
Any other kind of amp tends to amplify 5-1002MHz. But, very few have a requisite pass-through/bypass to properly allow internal routing of the MoCA around the amp, rather than attempting to send it through it (through it is bad).
Some multi-output amps can manage to let MoCA pass-between the OUT ports, since the ports out are just ports of an internal splitter. Those advertised as having an internal PoE filter, place it between the amp and splitter inside.

YMMV. There will always be somebody who will say they are an exception, to what anybody says "won't work". But, they are often a 1% situation, if true.


----------



## dbaps

I had my ONT switched to ethernet last year. Verizon also gave me a new Actiontec Gigabit router version I. The coax stats say that no packets are moving on the WAN or the LAN in the house. This is in the router settings. The installer didn't remove the coax cable at the router when he replaced it with the Ethernet cable.

My house has a coax splitter outside my home to four rooms. There is a POE even though people say it's not needed with Fios. Maybe since it's so old, that has something to do with it?

Anyway, I'm confused about running the Moca through my coax cables. I pulled the coax off the router and it didn't turn off any tv's in my home. I have four Tivo-HD's with coax in each room. 

Do I need to somehow activate my coax at my Actiontec router to get it to connect with a Moca adapter at a Tivo-HD box? I'm confiused how I hookup the Moca adapter at my Actiontec routerl I realize Moca is a bridge inside my router. However right now I have an ethernet bridge setup in my router. I could setup a second bridge for Moca? 

I guess I need some help here. If everything was straight coax, like it use to be, i would fully understand what to do. With the ONT now being ethernet and no coax traffic at the router, I'm confused about the setup. Can someone help me?


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## BigJimOutlaw

dbaps said:


> I had my ONT switched to ethernet last year. Verizon also gave me a new Actiontec Gigabit router version I. The coax stats say that no packets are moving on the WAN or the LAN in the house. This is in the router settings. The installer didn't remove the coax cable at the router when he replaced it with the Ethernet cable.
> 
> My house has a coax splitter outside my home to four rooms. There is a POE even though people say it's not needed with Fios. Maybe since it's so old, that has something to do with it?
> 
> Anyway, I'm confused about running the Moca through my coax cables. I pulled the coax off the router and it didn't turn off any tv's in my home. I have four Tivo-HD's with coax in each room.
> 
> Do I need to somehow activate my coax at my Actiontec router to get it to connect with a Moca adapter at a Tivo-HD box? I'm confiused how I hookup the Moca adapter at my Actiontec routerl I realize Moca is a bridge inside my router. However right now I have an ethernet bridge setup in my router. I could setup a second bridge for Moca?
> 
> I guess I need some help here. If everything was straight coax, like it use to be, i would fully understand what to do. With the ONT now being ethernet and no coax traffic at the router, I'm confused about the setup. Can someone help me?


I *think* you can still use your Actiontec for a moca LAN even though the ONT is provisioned for ethernet. But I'm not solid on that. First thing to do is reconnect coax to the router, reboot router, and see if the coax LAN light comes on.

Are you sure you want to go with 4 moca adapters for those Tivos? The benefit might be limited to some degree. There's a roughly 20 mbps bottleneck on those older boxes no matter how they connect.


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## Marty1781

dbaps said:


> I had my ONT switched to ethernet last year. Verizon also gave me a new Actiontec Gigabit router version I. The coax stats say that no packets are moving on the WAN or the LAN in the house. This is in the router settings. The installer didn't remove the coax cable at the router when he replaced it with the Ethernet cable.
> 
> My house has a coax splitter outside my home to four rooms. There is a POE even though people say it's not needed with Fios. Maybe since it's so old, that has something to do with it?
> 
> Anyway, I'm confused about running the Moca through my coax cables. I pulled the coax off the router and it didn't turn off any tv's in my home. I have four Tivo-HD's with coax in each room.
> 
> Do I need to somehow activate my coax at my Actiontec router to get it to connect with a Moca adapter at a Tivo-HD box? I'm confiused how I hookup the Moca adapter at my Actiontec routerl I realize Moca is a bridge inside my router. However right now I have an ethernet bridge setup in my router. I could setup a second bridge for Moca?
> 
> I guess I need some help here. If everything was straight coax, like it use to be, i would fully understand what to do. With the ONT now being ethernet and no coax traffic at the router, I'm confused about the setup. Can someone help me?


Try setting it up this way if you can:

- Remove the POE filter
- Leave the ethernet from the ONT to the Actiontec router
- Connect coax from ONT to the splitter's single input
- Each of the splitter's outputs goes to one of your 4 Tivo's MoCa adaptors
- One of the splitters outputs should connect to the Actiontec's coax jack. Therefore, you may need a 5-way splitter (4 Tivos + 1 Actiontec). Or if you have a 4-way splitter, connect a 2-way splitter to one of the 4-way splitter's outputs (although not generally recommended, the Fios signal is generally pretty strong so it should be able to handle the multiple splitters). The connection to the Actiontec's coax jack will create the MoCa network over the entire connected coax cabling in your house.
- Use splitters that have a frequency range of at least 5-1200mhz if possible such as these: http://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Broa...&qid=1412974195&sr=8-1&keywords=moca+splitter
5-1000mhz will work but since MoCa operates at ~1150mhz, the ones I linked to should work better
- Call Fios and tell them you want both the ethernet and coax outputs on the ONT active
- This is basically how my parents have their Fios system setup (active ethernet and coax runs from the ONT) and it works fine
Good luck!


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## dbaps

I'm planning on connecting a switch (hopefully). I call them stations. Each of the four stations has different electronic equipment that can use an ethernet port or wireless connection. 

I like your idea about reconnecting the coax. Since the Verizon box is broken, I have access to the splitter and all of the coax cables on the outdoors of my garage. It comes inside to the garage (Ethernet) and the coax lines go up to the attic over the garage and then split off in separate directions. 

I can try to run Ethernet cable to a couple of the stations One is on the far side of the house. Right now I have a Netgear Powerline connection into a switch. Perhaps the speed will not be better. I don't really know. I wish there were more Moca 2.0 devices available. It seems to be a very slow rollout. Plus I saw one Gigabit Powerline adapter set that just was released. I was hoping that Moca would give a more consistent connection.

The router goes from 1150mhz to 1500mhz in increments of 50mhz. However the router shows the coax on the wan and the lan side being disconnected. I need to check and see if I can reconnect the coax at the other end outside too that goes up to the router.

Thanks for all of your help.


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## dbaps

I spoke with a Verizon rep who said I could either get Coax or Ethernet from my Ont to my router, but not both. I've seen posts online that say they have both. I've also seen some posts where the person has bought a second Actiontec router for the coax. Can someone please tell me what the truth is about this issue?


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## Marty1781

dbaps said:


> I spoke with a Verizon rep who said I could either get Coax or Ethernet from my Ont to my router, but not both. I've seen posts online that say they have both. I've also seen some posts where the person has bought a second Actiontec router for the coax. Can someone please tell me what the truth is about this issue?


You can definitely have both (just ask the installer to install both when he comes to your house). I have both ethernet and coax installed and active. Ethernet goes straight from the ONT to my own Linksys router (I prefer to use my own, more robust router to run my network, not the Actiontec). Coax connects from the ONT to a 3-way splitter in the attic. From there, two of the outputs go to two cable boxes and the other output goes to the Actiontec coax jack so that it can create a MoCA network for the cable boxes. The Actiontec also has an ethernet cable from one of its LAN ports to a LAN port on my Linksys router in order to provide an internet connection for the Actiontec's MoCA network.

Regarding purchasing a second Actiontec router, you can definitely buy one if you want to but Verizon provides one as part of the standard install process (that first Actiontec router is what is used to create a MoCA network for your house). A second Actiontec router is potentially useful because you can reconfigure it to act as a MoCA adapter. This is useful for connecting ethernet devices that are in locations where no ethernet jack is available but a coax connection is.


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## aaronwt

On FiOS, Ethernet and Coax are not active at the same time for internet.

You either have Coax for Tv and twisted pair cable for Internet or you have Coax for both TV and Internet.

Setting it up for internet access over cat5e/cat6 is the most versatile option on FiOS since you aren't restricted to using the FiOS supplied router.


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## dmband

aaronwt said:


> On FiOS, Ethernet and Coax are not active at the same time for internet.
> 
> You either have Coax for Tv and twisted pair cable for Internet or you have Coax for both TV and Internet.
> 
> Setting it up for internet access over cat5e/cat6 is the most versatile option on FiOS since you aren't restricted to using the FiOS supplied router.


So the info in the first post isn't totally correct??
Meaning you can not use the fios router as a moca adapter/poe block AND use it for internet on a wired computer

If your router is set up currently for Ethernet then the coax isn't active??

If the router is set to Ethernet, can you simply install an adapter?

Tia, confused and trying to learn/make the correct purchase


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## Marty1781

dmband said:


> So the info in the first post isn't totally correct??
> 1. Meaning you can not use the fios router as a moca adapter/poe block AND use it for internet on a wired computer
> 
> 2. If your router is set up currently for Ethernet then the coax isn't active??
> 
> 3. If the router is set to Ethernet, can you simply install an adapter?
> 
> Tia, confused and trying to learn/make the correct purchase


Your post is confusing and is lacking the necessary background information to properly answer your questions. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? What is your current Fios setup? Also, the post you quoted is referencing the setup for the ONT, not the router.

1. The Fios router can certainly be used as a Moca adapter and for hardwired ethernet to a desktop computer. POE blocks are not necessary with Fios.

2. No, unless it has been disabled, coax is definitely active on the router (in addition to ethernet).

3. An adapter for what? MoCA? As previously stated, the Fios router can be used as a MoCA adapter.

Again, you really need to clarify what your current setup is and what you are trying to accomplish in order to properly help you.


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## dmband

Marty1781 said:


> Your post is confusing and is lacking the necessary background information to properly answer your questions. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? What is your current Fios setup? Also, the post you quoted is referencing the setup for the ONT, not the router.
> 
> 1. The Fios router can certainly be used as a Moca adapter and for hardwired ethernet to a desktop computer. POE blocks are not necessary with Fios.
> 
> 2. No, unless it has been disabled, coax is definitely active on the router (in addition to ethernet).
> 
> 3. An adapter for what? MoCA? As previously stated, the Fios router can be used as a MoCA adapter.
> 
> Again, you really need to clarify what your current setup is and what you are trying to accomplish in order to properly help you.


Thank you
I didn't realize ONT was what I quoted. I have been reading lots of stuff.
To give more info though, I want to use my verizon fios router as an Ethernet connecting AND moca via coax. My computer sits right next to the router but my tivo doesn't.
I would want to hook up a roamio plus and mini(s)


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## Marty1781

dmband said:


> Thank you
> I didn't realize ONT was what I quoted. I have been reading lots of stuff.
> To give more info though, I want to use my verizon fios router as an Ethernet connecting AND moca via coax. My computer sits right next to the router but my tivo doesn't.
> I would want to hook up a roamio plus and mini(s)


If you have Verizon Fios setup, then you should already have a MoCA network and thus should be good to go. Is there a coax cable currently connected to your Fios router? If so, then all you need to do is connect coax from the wall to both the Tivo and the Mini, tell both the Tivo and the Mini to use MoCA in their network settings, and you're done.


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## dmband

Marty1781 said:


> If you have Verizon Fios setup, then you should already have a MoCA network and thus should be good to go. Is there a coax cable currently connected to your Fios router? If so, then all you need to do is connect coax from the wall to both the Tivo and the Mini, tell both the Tivo and the Mini to use MoCA in their network settings, and you're done.


Sweet thanks again


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## Bigg

OMG! Why does everyone find connecting MoCA so darn complicated?!?


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## nooneuknow

Bigg said:


> OMG! Why does everyone find connecting MoCA so darn complicated?!?


I blame it on TiVo's diagrams showing use of the in and out ports of a TA, when a TA is required, plus TiVo assuming everybody can hook up using the same diagram, and only including a generic setup poster with newer TiVos, while having the most slow, and dead-ending website I have used in years...

Secondarily, I feel the forum "Search" function is utterly useless, and people will have better luck using Google, plus a site-specific search for here.

I used to get so mad about the same MoCA and/or PoE filter questions being asked, day in and day out, here. Then, I tried looking for something I'm not already actively involved in, and got reminded how hard it is to find things here, even when it's something I posted here a few months back...

The most effective "search" here, is to begin starting a new thread, then actually pay attention to what the forum system suggests, based on thread topic/title, before you commit to creating the new thread. That doesn't stop new members from starting them, though...


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## KimHedrick

nooneuknow said:


> I blame it on TiVo's diagrams showing use of the in and out ports of a TA, when a TA is required, plus TiVo assuming everybody can hook up using the same diagram, and only including a generic setup poster with newer TiVos, while having the most slow, and dead-ending website I have used in years...


That is exactly what caused me to spend about a week trying to set up my MoCA network. Luckily I didn't spend money replacing the TWC amp that I was told by a TiVo CS rep was the problem.


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## Bigg

nooneuknow said:


> I blame it on TiVo's diagrams showing use of the in and out ports of a TA, when a TA is required, plus TiVo assuming everybody can hook up using the same diagram, and only including a generic setup poster with newer TiVos, while having the most slow, and dead-ending website I have used in years...
> 
> Secondarily, I feel the forum "Search" function is utterly useless, and people will have better luck using Google, plus a site-specific search for here.
> 
> I used to get so mad about the same MoCA and/or PoE filter questions being asked, day in and day out, here. Then, I tried looking for something I'm not already actively involved in, and got reminded how hard it is to find things here, even when it's something I posted here a few months back...
> 
> The most effective "search" here, is to begin starting a new thread, then actually pay attention to what the forum system suggests, based on thread topic/title, before you commit to creating the new thread. That doesn't stop new members from starting them, though...


It's just not that complicated! People shouldn't need a diagram in the first place. MoCA was made to be simple and just work. If you read up on how it works, you can figure out what will and won't work.

True, the forum search is pretty terrible.


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## HazelW

Bigg said:


> It's just not that complicated! People shouldn't need a diagram in the first place. MoCA was made to be simple and just work. If you read up on how it works, you can figure out what will and won't work.
> 
> True, the forum search is pretty terrible.


A lot depends on your configuration. In my case the signal coming into the house is split; one side goes to an amplifier and then to a 7 way splitter to the TVs. The other side goes up to where the cable modem and router is. Putting a MOCA signal on the side to the cable modem will not go through the amplifier that feeds the tivo's. I had to use satellite diplexers. Would not be at all obvious for someone with no technical training.


----------



## John Z NY

Hi, i just wanted to go over a configuration plan i had before i try it and end up messing up something. 
my current setup works perfectly fine, but i was looking for added reliability and to free up the wireless....
using Roamio, and Mini
currently i have POE -> 3 way splitter (phone modem, data modem, TVs). TV -> 2 way splitter (TA/Tivo roamio, and other was to an old tivo HD that died). the way i have been getting signal to my Mini is by going from modem -> apple airport extreme and using wifi 5.4ghz -> apple time capsule in bridge mode. 

what i am looking to to to free up the wifi and generate less heat from the wireless access points :
POE -> 3 way splitter (phone modem, data modem, TVs). TV -> filter -> Moca adaptor -> 2 way splitter (TA/Tivo, Moca adaptor). i was looking to connect the moca adaptor to the wired WAN port on the time capsule and leave it in bridge mode. 

(the reason to connect the moca adaptor to the time capsule is cause i need to get internet to a raspberry pi, blu ray player and tivo mini)

the filter i would be using was leftover when i used the TWC DVR. (used moca for the multiroom viewing) model number marked is: SNLP-1GCWWS

am i going to have any interference with my TA/Tivo roamio off the 1 leg of the splitter? i don't care if moca doesn't pass the TA, but i don't want to screw up the roamio signal and i don't want the TA to interfere with the other leg of the splitter that goes to the bedroom with the mini. if the TA is going to mess with the moca signal, what if i add another filter between the 2 way and TA/roamio?


----------



## nooneuknow

John Z NY said:


> Hi, i just wanted to go over a configuration plan i had before i try it and end up messing up something.
> my current setup works perfectly fine, but i was looking for added reliability and to free up the wireless....
> using Roamio, and Mini
> currently i have POE -> 3 way splitter (phone modem, data modem, TVs). TV -> 2 way splitter (TA/Tivo roamio, and other was to an old tivo HD that died). the way i have been getting signal to my Mini is by going from modem -> apple airport extreme and using wifi 5.4ghz -> apple time capsule in bridge mode.
> 
> what i am looking to to to free up the wifi and generate less heat from the wireless access points :
> POE -> 3 way splitter (phone modem, data modem, TVs). TV -> filter -> Moca adaptor -> 2 way splitter (TA/Tivo, Moca adaptor). i was looking to connect the moca adaptor to the wired WAN port on the time capsule and leave it in bridge mode.
> 
> (the reason to connect the moca adaptor to the time capsule is cause i need to get internet to a raspberry pi, blu ray player and tivo mini)
> 
> the filter i would be using was leftover when i used the TWC DVR. (used moca for the multiroom viewing) model number marked is: SNLP-1GCWWS
> 
> am i going to have any interference with my TA/Tivo roamio off the 1 leg of the splitter? i don't care if moca doesn't pass the TA, but i don't want to screw up the roamio signal and i don't want the TA to interfere with the other leg of the splitter that goes to the bedroom with the mini. if the TA is going to mess with the moca signal, what if i add another filter between the 2 way and TA/roamio?


Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!

Yes, that'd be a 2-way splitter.


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## John Z NY

nooneuknow said:


> Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
> 
> Yes, that'd be a 2-way splitter.


I'm not looking to send the moca signal thru the TA to the roamio... I'm looking to send the signal to the other leg of the 2 way splitter to the other moca adaptor... i just wanted to make sure its not going to interfere with it..


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## BigJimOutlaw

John Z NY said:


> Hi, i just wanted to go over a configuration plan i had before i try it and end up messing up something.
> my current setup works perfectly fine, but i was looking for added reliability and to free up the wireless....
> using Roamio, and Mini
> currently i have POE -> 3 way splitter (phone modem, data modem, TVs). TV -> 2 way splitter (TA/Tivo roamio, and other was to an old tivo HD that died). the way i have been getting signal to my Mini is by going from modem -> apple airport extreme and using wifi 5.4ghz -> apple time capsule in bridge mode.
> 
> what i am looking to to to free up the wifi and generate less heat from the wireless access points :
> POE -> 3 way splitter (phone modem, data modem, TVs). TV -> filter -> Moca adaptor -> 2 way splitter (TA/Tivo, Moca adaptor). i was looking to connect the moca adaptor to the wired WAN port on the time capsule and leave it in bridge mode.
> 
> (the reason to connect the moca adaptor to the time capsule is cause i need to get internet to a raspberry pi, blu ray player and tivo mini)
> 
> the filter i would be using was leftover when i used the TWC DVR. (used moca for the multiroom viewing) model number marked is: SNLP-1GCWWS
> 
> am i going to have any interference with my TA/Tivo roamio off the 1 leg of the splitter? i don't care if moca doesn't pass the TA, but i don't want to screw up the roamio signal and i don't want the TA to interfere with the other leg of the splitter that goes to the bedroom with the mini. if the TA is going to mess with the moca signal, what if i add another filter between the 2 way and TA/roamio?


Concerned about the placement of the moca adapter that's the most upstream. Actiontec moca adapters don't pass-through moca signals on their tv-out side, if that's how you were planning to do it. You can try it but if it doesn't work, there may need to be another split... one to the adapter, another to the TVs.

At the Roamio, to avoid TA/moca interference you would do another split. One to Roamio, the other to the TA (with a filter to keep moca out). The other runs to the Mini and such will be fine.


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## Bigg

HazelW said:


> A lot depends on your configuration. In my case the signal coming into the house is split; one side goes to an amplifier and then to a 7 way splitter to the TVs. The other side goes up to where the cable modem and router is. Putting a MOCA signal on the side to the cable modem will not go through the amplifier that feeds the tivo's. I had to use satellite diplexers. Would not be at all obvious for someone with no technical training.


That's a total kludge. That setup is correct, in that you have all the TVs downstream of the amp. In that case, the best thing to do would be ethernet or a wireless bridge to get internet on the MoCA side of things if you don't have a second coax line to the router/modem. Or just do the other acceptable way of doing things, and throw the modem behind the amp too.

It can be impossible if you rent, but if you own, get the drill out and run a few miles of wire.


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## HazelW

My point was that it is not always a simple plug and play as was suggested. But it is a kludge.

But the wireless bridge sounds interesting. Would I use something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-Unive...919&sr=8-1&keywords=netgear+wireless+n+bridge

and connect it to the Ethernet port on the roameo, then use MOCA between the roameo and the minis? I would not need a MOCA adapter at the modem anymore?


----------



## HazelW

Since the Roameo has built in WiFi, can I just use the WiFi to connect to my router, and let the Roameo set up a moca network between it and the minis?


----------



## nooneuknow

HazelW said:


> Since the Roameo has built in WiFi, can I just use the WiFi to connect to my router, and let the Roameo set up a moca network between it and the minis?


No. The reason the external ethernet-to-WiFi bridge works, is because, to the TiVo, it appears to be a hardwired ethernet connection. The TiVo knows the internal wireless is what it is.


----------



## Bigg

HazelW said:


> My point was that it is not always a simple plug and play as was suggested. But it is a kludge.
> 
> But the wireless bridge sounds interesting. Would I use something like this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-Unive...919&sr=8-1&keywords=netgear+wireless+n+bridge
> 
> and connect it to the Ethernet port on the roameo, then use MOCA between the roameo and the minis? I would not need a MOCA adapter at the modem anymore?


Basically. I'd go with something that's wireless AC dual-band capable, but that's the general idea. That would be a decent solution for situations where you can't just drill a hole in the wall and run CAT cable.


----------



## DJQuad

Bigg said:


> It's just not that complicated! People shouldn't need a diagram in the first place. MoCA was made to be simple and just work. If you read up on how it works, you can figure out what will and won't work.


A lot of it is VERY confusing, which is why I made diagrams a few pages back. Some are more visual than you apparently are.


----------



## Random User 7

Anyone have experience with a DPH548 and a Mini? I have internet only service and the coax wiring in the house is not in use. I was thinking I could attach it to my existing coax as well as my router then the Mini right to the coax since it has MoCa adapter built in. Would this provide the functionality or would I have to buy two and use Ethernet out of the DPH548 to attach the Mini?


----------



## poppagene

Random User 7 said:


> Anyone have experience with a DPH548 and a Mini? I have internet only service and the coax wiring in the house is not in use. I was thinking I could attach it to my existing coax as well as my router then the Mini right to the coax since it has MoCa adapter built in. Would this provide the functionality or would I have to buy two and use Ethernet out of the DPH548 to attach the Mini?


It looks like the dph548 uses HPNA rather than MoCa and AFAIK the moca enabled mini doesn't work with an HPNA signal. As you suggest, 2 HPNA adapters would fix that issue.


----------



## Random User 7

Thank you, while I understand networking fairly well MoCa is new to me and I haven't had the time to delve into all the details.


----------



## HarperVision

Random User 7 said:


> Anyone have experience with a DPH548 and a Mini? I have internet only service and the coax wiring in the house is not in use. I was thinking I could attach it to my existing coax as well as my router then the Mini right to the coax since it has MoCa adapter built in. Would this provide the functionality or would I have to buy two and use Ethernet out of the DPH548 to attach the Mini?





poppagene said:


> It looks like the dph548 uses HPNA rather than MoCa and AFAIK the moca enabled mini doesn't work with an HPNA signal. As you suggest, 2 HPNA adapters would fix that issue.


You can also use DirecTv Deca units as they are also a form of moca, just on lower freqs for satellite so if you use with a coax cable that already has cable tv on it, you'll get interference. It sounds like you don't have cable though, like me, so you should be golden using this option. Just go to eBay and get some. They're super cheap especially compared to regular moca devices. I saw an old white one selling for $3.99 the other day. Just make sure to get some power supplies for them since you don't have directv receivers there to power them.


----------



## confinoj

I'm trying to set up a moca network. My main home theater setup, which I would like to add to the network, has a single coax currently fed by a rooftop antenna. I also have an RCA preamp installed with the power injector connected right before coax enters Tivo. I plan to link that coax line to other rooms and obviously my router/moca adapter by existing coax in the home. It will be isolated from the incoming internet from my cable company. I know OTA and MOCA can co-exist but am I going to have a problem with the pre-amp on that leg?


----------



## Bigg

DJQuad said:


> A lot of it is VERY confusing, which is why I made diagrams a few pages back. Some are more visual than you apparently are.


I'm very visual, but MoCA just isn't that confusing. It's so good because it is so simple, and extremely resilient to even my best attempts to break it (it used to travel through 3 splitters from XL4 to the Minis).


----------



## Random User 7

HarperVision said:


> You can also use DirecTv Deca units as they are also a form of moca, just on lower freqs for satellite so if you use with a coax cable that already has cable tv on it, you'll get interference. It sounds like you don't have cable though, like me, so you should be golden using this option. Just go to eBay and get some. They're super cheap especially compared to regular moca devices. I saw an old white one selling for $3.99 the other day. Just make sure to get some power supplies for them since you don't have directv receivers there to power them.


Thanks I will look at those. Any specific part number or are they all the same?

Edit: Found DCA2SR0 on Amazon for under $10 with power adapter. Looks like a great deal to me. Thanks again!


----------



## confinoj

confinoj said:


> I'm trying to set up a moca network. My main home theater setup, which I would like to add to the network, has a single coax currently fed by a rooftop antenna. I also have an RCA preamp installed with the power injector connected right before coax enters Tivo. I plan to link that coax line to other rooms and obviously my router/moca adapter by existing coax in the home. It will be isolated from the incoming internet from my cable company. I know OTA and MOCA can co-exist but am I going to have a problem with the pre-amp on that leg?


A little more detail on this. Antenna feed is split between antenna and power injector. This is a splitter that passes power only on one leg so power should be isolated to between power injector and antenna. The unpowered split will connect to the rest of the moca coax network. So while the power is isolated to one leg, moca will need to run through it. Will this work?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

confinoj said:


> A little more detail on this. Antenna feed is split between antenna and power injector. This is a splitter that passes power only on one leg so power should be isolated to between power injector and antenna. The unpowered split will connect to the rest of the moca coax network. So while the power is isolated to one leg, moca will need to run through it. Will this work?


It might. I couldn't answer definitively. There aren't a lot of OTA/moca users that have given their feedback to let us know if that setup has worked for them. You might have to be the guinea pig and give it a shot.


----------



## confinoj

Will give it a shot and report back.


----------



## COKEMAN

BigJimOutlaw said:


> ...
> *Pro Tip:*
> 
> Using MoCA setup option #2? Connect your Smart TV, Blu-ray player, Roku, or other device to the Tivo's Ethernet port! Those devices can daisy chain off your Tivo's MoCA connection. _(If you want to connect multiple devices, you can get a cheap Ethernet hub and plug it into the Tivo's port too.)_
> ...


I have used this setup and it works great....Mostly. Here's what I am seeing and hopefully someone can help.

I plugged a blu-ray player into the ethernet port on the back of my host box. Player gets a connection, connects, behaves as designed etc. However, when I turn the player on or turn it off, the minis in the house loose their connection. The connection is restored by navigating the message boxes and getting back to live tv, but I obviously do not want to do that every time. Tivos are connected via Moca.

Repeatable steps:
1. Minis on and watching Tv
2. turn on Blu ray player
3. Minis loose connection
4. Select Ok on the Minis' screens, go to Tivo Central, select Live TV
5. Connection is back and tv restored.
6. Turn off blu-ray player
7. Steps 3, 4, 5 are repeated.

The internet connections to the minis are not affected though. i.e. Someone watching Youtube on a mini does not lose connection.

It is acting like when power is toggled on the ethernet port, that the system wants to change the network type, but I cannot find anywhere in the setting to prevent this. Network settings are already set to Use Moca.

Any thoughts?


----------



## confinoj

confinoj said:


> Will give it a shot and report back.


All works perfect. So OTA mixed with moca 1.1, and one leg of Moca coax network runs through a power injector for rooftop antenna pre-amp. Re-purposed a DirecTV splitter that has one port power pass for pre-amp injector so power it fairly isolated. Full 100mb/s speed to 4 rooms. OTA signal unaltered. I did reroute some of my coax so incoming internet from cable co only goes to cable modem and is isolated from moca/OTA coax network. I think some of my coax is RG59 too. Overall very impressed with moca. Wish I did this a while ago. I have struggled getting good wireless coverage in our house due to older construction with impermeable walls. Running Cat 5e/6 is not feasible. Powerline was unreliable and seemed to slow to a crawl whenever my plasma was on from interference defeating the purpose.


----------



## Random User 7

I'm OTA with cable internet too. Coax in house is using OTA antenna from the attic and the Internet uses its own drop to the modem. I'll be adding MoCa next week. Not expecting any issues and glad to read you didn't have any.


----------



## mikeski41

Hi all, I'm currently a Comcast subscriber with the X1 platform (becoming less and less usable every day), so I'm thinking of getting a Roamio Plus and two Minis.

I recently bought a Motorola/Arris SBG6782-AC Gateway with built-in MoCA, but I'm seeing conflicting information as to whether I'll need any additional gear. The Gateway would NOT be co-located with with the Roamio, and none of the Tivos would have access to an ethernet cable.

Will I need any additional adapters or splitters? I'm fairly certain I won't need an adapter, but the gateway's manual does mention a splitter. I'm just confused as to where it would go.

Any help is greatly appreciated!


----------



## tatergator1

mikeski41 said:


> Hi all, I'm currently a Comcast subscriber with the X1 platform (becoming less and less usable every day), so I'm thinking of getting a Roamio Plus and two Minis.
> 
> I recently bought a Motorola/Arris SBG6782-AC Gateway with built-in MoCA, but I'm seeing conflicting information as to whether I'll need any additional gear. The Gateway would NOT be co-located with with the Roamio, and none of the Tivos would have access to an ethernet cable.
> 
> Will I need any additional adapters or splitters? I'm fairly certain I won't need an adapter, but the gateway's manual does mention a splitter. I'm just confused as to where it would go.
> 
> Any help is greatly appreciated!


The Roamio Plus and Mini's have MoCA capabilities built-in. The only additional equipment that would be recommended would be a POE filter where the cable enters your house to prevent egress of the MoCA signal outside of the home.

You'll just need to configure the router to create the MoCA network, and then hook up all your Tivo devices to coax and then configure the network settings on each box to connect to the MoCA network the router is providing.

As for the mention of a splitter, the only reason you would need one is if you're also planning to have the Roamio Plus in the same room as the router. You'd need to split the coax line in that room, one run to the router and the other run to the Tivo. But you've said that's not the case, so I can't think of a need for a splitter in your situation.


----------



## mikeski41

Awesome, thanks so much for the quick reply tatergator1! I've enabled the MoCA network on the Gateway, and it shows 4 devices connected which accounts for the 3 X1 boxes. The 4th is a mystery to me, so maybe that POE filter is definitely in order


----------



## Bigg

mikeski41 said:


> Awesome, thanks so much for the quick reply tatergator1! I've enabled the MoCA network on the Gateway, and it shows 4 devices connected which accounts for the 3 X1 boxes. The 4th is a mystery to me, so maybe that POE filter is definitely in order


If you have X1, you would already have the MoCA filter installed by Comcast for X1's MoCA. Take a look, it should be there somewhere.


----------



## confinoj

I thought I had my moca network all setup but ran into a snag. I intended to have 4 moca adapters (one at router and three other rooms). I initially bought a pair of actiontec 2500c and tested each location. All rooms worked with ~100mb/s speed. I purchased two additional adapters (actually the 4 port gigabit ones). There are two rooms with a funny issue. They won't both connect at the same time. If I power cycle one the other will connect and vice versa. I tried moving the adapters around and reseting but same issue. Each room is off of the same 4 way splitter. It actually was from a directv install. I'm only using 3 of the ports and put a terminator on the unused one (which is the power pass port). A third room off the splitter works no matter what. Can any one think of why this may be happening?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

confinoj said:


> I thought I had my moca network all setup but ran into a snag. I intended to have 4 moca adapters (one at router and three other rooms). I initially bought a pair of actiontec 2500c and tested each location. All rooms worked with ~100mb/s speed. I purchased two additional adapters (actually the 4 port gigabit ones). There are two rooms with a funny issue. They won't both connect at the same time. If I power cycle one the other will connect and vice versa. I tried moving the adapters around and reseting but same issue. Each room is off of the same 4 way splitter. It actually was from a directv install. I'm only using 3 of the ports and put a terminator on the unused one (which is the power pass port). A third room off the splitter works no matter what. Can any one think of why this may be happening?


The problem is room-specific between 2 rooms, no matter which devices go there? If there isn't anything special about the coax feed going to those rooms, I'd try replacing the splitter. Standard 1 to 1.5 GHz is fine.


----------



## confinoj

Yes room specific although those 2 rooms have longer runs. Some of it could be rg59. The third room off the splitter always links up. Just odd that individually they both link up just not together. Will try new splitter first.


----------



## confinoj

One other thought. This is pure speculation as I don't know enough about this technology nor am I an engineer. My understanding is that all moca adapters need to link up at the same negotiated frequency. I'm wondering if in order to reach the adapter on the longer run with older coax it needs to negotiate at a lower frequency which for some reason doesn't have enough bandwidth to support the whole moca network and the other adapter looses its link. When the moca adapter on the longer run is turned off or power cycled the network renegotiates at a higher frequency that then can't link up with that adapter but the other one comes back online. If changing the splitter doesn't work then it may just be bad coax which sucks as it's a long run outside the house that I really don't want or have the time to do.


----------



## aaronwt

The lowest MoCA frequency the TiVos use is 1150Mhz. I think that is channel 15 in the settings.


----------



## confinoj

aaronwt said:


> The lowest MoCA frequency the TiVos use is 1150Mhz. I think that is channel 15 in the settings.


My TiVo is not MoCA enabled (TiVo HD) so I'm only using actiontec adapters but I believe the frequency range is the same. I guess I could use the actiontec config software and see what the frequencies are with one room linked up vs the other.


----------



## confinoj

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The problem is room-specific between 2 rooms, no matter which devices go there? If there isn't anything special about the coax feed going to those rooms, I'd try replacing the splitter. Standard 1 to 1.5 GHz is fine.


Tried replacing the previous 4 way directv splitter with a standard 3 way splitter (5-2050MHz) but no change. However, I discovered that if I disconnect my antenna down lead it works. Also it's not the pre-amp as I took the power injector out of the line first. Must be some sort of interference or loss from antenna I guess. I ordered a POE filter to see if by chance that helps.

Attached quick sketch of setup. Rm 2 and Rm 3 won't link up at same time (but will individually) unless I disconnect antenna.


----------



## COKEMAN

COKEMAN said:


> *****************
> Originally Posted by BigJimOutlaw View Post
> ...
> *Pro Tip:*
> 
> Using MoCA setup option #2? Connect your Smart TV, Blu-ray player, Roku, or other device to the Tivo's Ethernet port! Those devices can daisy chain off your Tivo's MoCA connection. (If you want to connect multiple devices, you can get a cheap Ethernet hub and plug it into the Tivo's port too.)
> ...
> *******************
> 
> I have used this setup and it works great....Mostly. Here's what I am seeing and hopefully someone can help.
> 
> I plugged a blu-ray player into the ethernet port on the back of my host box. Player gets a connection, connects, behaves as designed etc. However, when I turn the player on or turn it off, the minis in the house loose their connection. The connection is restored by navigating the message boxes and getting back to live tv, but I obviously do not want to do that every time. Tivos are connected via Moca.
> 
> Repeatable steps:
> 1. Minis on and watching Tv
> 2. turn on Blu ray player
> 3. Minis loose connection
> 4. Select Ok on the Minis' screens, go to Tivo Central, select Live TV
> 5. Connection is back and tv restored.
> 6. Turn off blu-ray player
> 7. Steps 3, 4, 5 are repeated.
> 
> The internet connections to the minis are not affected though. i.e. Someone watching Youtube on a mini does not lose connection.
> 
> It is acting like when power is toggled on the ethernet port, that the system wants to change the network type, but I cannot find anywhere in the setting to prevent this. Network settings are already set to Use Moca.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Bump. Anyone have an idea why toggling power to the device on the host ethernet port would cause the connected minis to loose connection temporarily?


----------



## HarperVision

confinoj said:


> Tried replacing the previous 4 way directv splitter with a standard 3 way splitter (5-2050MHz) but no change. However, I discovered that if I disconnect my antenna down lead it works. Also it's not the pre-amp as I took the power injector out of the line first.* Must be some sort of interference or loss from antenna I guess.* I ordered a POE filter to see if by chance that helps. Attached quick sketch of setup. Rm 2 and Rm 3 won't link up at same time (but will individually) unless I disconnect antenna.


It sounds like its because your antenna is acting like, well, an antenna, and radiating the signal out its elements. You're probably getting signal loss this way where as soon as you plug that last mini in it takes it past the threshold of usable signal level and won't work. I think the POE filter sounds like a good idea, unless your intention was to create a little MoCa wifi network off the top of your roof?


----------



## Random User 7

Thanks for all the help. The FiOS Actiontec I picked up from eBay for $17 worked perfect to creat a MoCa network for my Mini to attach to.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

COKEMAN said:


> Bump. Anyone have an idea why toggling power to the device on the host ethernet port would cause the connected minis to loose connection temporarily?


Kind of a head scratcher. Seems like some kind of DHCP issue but I don't know enough to resolve. Is there a hard limit to the # of devices that can connect to the network? Or static IPs?


----------



## aaronwt

I thought you could only have something like 254 devices without using subnets?

Does the router have a large enough range of available IP addresses so there are no issues? I used to use a pool of around 150 IP address but I now use all that I can so I can better separate my devices and give a larger range of addresses depending on the types of devices. It just makes things easier for me to remember.


----------



## COKEMAN

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Kind of a head scratcher. Seems like some kind of DHCP issue but I don't know enough to resolve. Is there a hard limit to the # of devices that can connect to the network? Or static IPs?


Not a device limit and I have no static IP addresses. I just ran a test. If I turn on the device connected to the ethernet port and go to network settings on the main tivo box, then it says "currently using Ethernet+MoCA to connect to the Internet." When I turn the device off, it says "Currently using MoCA to connect to the internet."

The IP addresses on the minis do not change and going to Tivo Central and selecting Live TV restores their connection.

I suspect toggling power to that port changes the network type each time (as seen above) and when that happens the main box disconnects the minis and they are rejoining the network when I press live tv.

It might be possible to put a powered ethernet hub or switch there and plug the device to that. That way that port always thinks it has something connected and the network type should not toggle when the power to the devices does. Would still like to figure out without that though.


----------



## sjam613

Been searching around looking for a reason here. Have had zero problems with my Roamio and MoCA network the first few months of being set up. Now the past few days I keep dropping the connection between the Mini and the Roamio. When I look at my network status the MoCA details show the link status as down.

I have tried rebooting my Internet network, and the Tivos. The network seems to come up on it's own every now and then. What could possibly be happening that this would stop working? Nothing has been changed in any of my setup so it is baffling why it would just start being problematic.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

sjam613 said:


> I have tried rebooting my Internet network, and the Tivos. The network seems to come up on it's own every now and then. What could possibly be happening that this would stop working? Nothing has been changed in any of my setup so it is baffling why it would just start being problematic.


Moca signal issues are usually a result of wonky splitters. I'd try replacing those first.


----------



## nooneuknow

confinoj said:


> Tried replacing the previous 4 way directv splitter with a standard 3 way splitter (5-2050MHz) but no change. However, I discovered that if I disconnect my antenna down lead it works. Also it's not the pre-amp as I took the power injector out of the line first. Must be some sort of interference or loss from antenna I guess. I ordered a POE filter to see if by chance that helps.
> 
> Attached quick sketch of setup. Rm 2 and Rm 3 won't link up at same time (but will individually) unless I disconnect antenna.


MoCA + amplifiers lacking internal MoCA filter, [or lacking filter + MoCA (by)pass-band] = anything might behave strangely.

I've noticed many of the PoE filter listings now say "for Cable TV ONLY". I think MoCA was meant for CATV only, but wonder if the filter adds enough loss that people were returning the filters, maybe?

Until about a month or two ago, the official TCF gospel being ministered, was OTA MoCA installations could do without a filter, so there was no point in using one. Then, a thread about a rather complex OTA installation revealed that it might be possible that nobody at the FCC thought about "what if somebody uses this (MoCA equipment) for OTA?", before approving it...

As others have said, antennas can send, as well as receive. As you said, there might be interference involved (who knows what frequencies are in your airspace?). Since you are using an amp, the filter seems to be a no-brainer, and should push the signal through any loss the filter may cause. I recommend placing the filter on the IN port of the splitter that is feeding the MoCA devices, rather than up by the antenna and amp.

If you had gone with 1GHz or 1.2GHz splitters (as also was recommended by somebody else), the MoCA might have worked, as-is. By using the higher-frequency splitters, you are essentially helping the signal to egress to the antenna, due to less isolation, associated with high frequency splitters (especially anything made for satellite).

If you could manage to try both ways, and report in, it would be good to know if the PoE filter was required, or using the right/wrong splitters makes a difference (any at all, that you can document), for an installation like yours.


----------



## sjam613

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Moca signal issues are usually a result of wonky splitters. I'd try replacing those first.


Thank you. Splitter is a good one but will try switching it out. So maddening that it worked great until now


----------



## Bigg

For all of you who claim you HAVE to have a MoCA filter, a Comcast cable guy told me there's no reason to have one. He said there's no way an 1150mhz signal could mess with the plant, since it has bad rolloff from about 610mhz up (it's nominally a 625mhz plant).

It's highly unlikely that anyone would have a non-X1 MoCA network on the same tap, and the X1 installs all have MoCA filters.


----------



## confinoj

nooneuknow said:


> If you could manage to try both ways, and report in, it would be good to know if the PoE filter was required, or using the right/wrong splitters makes a difference (any at all, that you can document), for an installation like yours.


Good idea about splitters. The three way splitter was the only one I could find locally and I was inpatient. I also noticed that some poe filters say catv only. Any recs for a good 3 way moca splitter. Holland? Also I think due to the preamp I need a splitter there that is one way power pass and it's mostly satellite splitters that do this. Any recs for a more moca compliant splitter to do this. Also I ordered the TiVo poe filter. Was this a reasonable choice?

Update:
I ordered a 3 way unbalanced MocA splitter from Holland (GHS-3pro-m) and found a 2 way 5-1000MHz splitter with one port power pass (perfect vision PV22233) to replace the directv one I am using. Although it should be noted that the directv splitter is actually designed for Directv's MoCA (DECA) which runs on lower frequencies than standard MoCA so not sure it will be any better.


----------



## nooneuknow

confinoj said:


> Good idea about splitters. The three way splitter was the only one I could find locally and I was inpatient. I also noticed that some poe filters say catv only. Any recs for a good 3 way moca splitter. Holland? Also I think due to the preamp I need a splitter there that is one way power pass and it's mostly satellite splitters that do this. Any recs for a more moca compliant splitter to do this. Also I ordered the TiVo poe filter. Was this a reasonable choice?
> 
> Update:
> I ordered a 3 way unbalanced MocA splitter from Holland (GHS-3pro-m) and found a 2 way 5-1000MHz splitter with one port power pass (perfect vision PV22233) to replace the directv one I am using. Although it should be noted that the directv splitter is actually designed for Directv's MoCA (DECA) which runs on lower frequencies than standard MoCA so not sure it will be any better.


MCR brand (by AMT), and PCT brand splitters have worked well for others on TCF, using MoCA. Holland, SVI/Commscope, and Antronix are all widely used by CATV providers, which I have used myself.

Most CATV splitters, in the 860-1002MHz high-end rating range, should work just fine for OTA. I don't even recommend going with 1.2GHz components, I simply don't object to using them, since they can be found for the same price, or less, and have not yet been identified as creating any issues for anyone.

All this MoCA-enabled/enabling/enhancing stuff is just a way for the companies to sell more splitters, to those who don't know MoCA was designed specifically to work with existing coax and splitters, within reason. A quality 860MHz splitter, in good condition, should work with MoCA, even if it was made long before MoCA came on market.

There's a large selection of them on Amazon. Extreme Broadband is a player, but I don't know how good they are, just that some use them.

Using satellite splitters is the last thing you want to do (for CATV/OTA + MoCA), and being designed for DECA does not help (and theoretically might hurt, due to the isolation tweaking). DirecTV ones seem to be the worst offenders, as far as the many specs splitters have, like differing isolation at differing frequency bands.

1GHz power inserters and power-passing splitter/combiner components exist. While the most purchased ones are for satellite (and the higher frequencies), that doesn't make them the best choice for your application. When Cox installs drop amps, they use Antronix 1Ghz power inserters:
http://www.antronix.net/uploads/specs/DS-1020-SS-W01_ARPI-200_52_0.pdf
http://www.amazon.com/Inserter-powering-subscriber-amplifiers-5-1002MHz/dp/B00D0UTKK8
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/371094073702?lpid=82

Keep in mind that Cox is a fully 1GHz plant and network in my market, and they use MoCA for their whole-home DVR systems, in the same frequencies as regular retail MoCA, yet they will not allow customers to use splitters rated greater than 10002MHz (1.02GHz). They insist that if not using the brands of components they use, it must match the specifications, and be a quality component (or they will replace it with one of their own, for free).

The PoE filter commentary by another member about what he was told, by a tech for his local 625MHz market, may be true, for that specific market, plant, and network. But, just as everything that goes with my 1GHz market does not apply to everybody else, everything about his market does not, either. Trying to cross-over things between CATV and OTA is not so simple, especially with MoCA and an amp.

I've already helped to get a few installations, like this one, get to the point of working. The resistance to remove satellite splitters (and other satellite rated components), and to rework things to isolate the MoCA from the amp, seem to be a common time-suck, dragging things on longer than they needed to.


----------



## Random User 7

When I switched to the Hopper Dish put in 3Ghz barrel connectors in the wall. Should I switch those back on the drops I am using MoCa or will they work fine?


----------



## nooneuknow

Random User 7 said:


> When I switched to the Hopper Dish put in 3Ghz barrel connectors in the wall. Should I switch those back on the drops I am using MoCa or will they work fine?


When it comes to barrels, it's just an indication of being high quality, thus it can handle the high frequencies. It's just a pass-thru, so there is nothing inside to care about, except the quality of the insulating materials, and the connectors gripping the conductor.

This is about the one exception, where you can get as high a rating as you like, and it will never be an issue, for any use.

Cheap barrels use foam, plastic, or some other cheap dielectric material to insulate the space between the center and shell.

The highest grade barrels use beryllium ceramic, which is also used on the magnetron of a microwave oven. It tends to have a purple color to it (and is very toxic if crushed, and inhaled). When you see "beryllium copper" in the product literature, you know it's quality. The next thing in the literature that matters is how much contact area the internal connections have (the more, the better).

Barrels in wall-plates tend to often be overlooked while troubleshooting, but are very prone to losing their gripping strength on the conductor.


----------



## drcordon

Can I add a question to the 18 pages of MoCA chaos? I jumped off the Cable wagon about 10 years ago with a Tivo Series 2 and haven't looked back. Now I'm selling the series 3's and switching to a single Roamio/Mini combo. I only have 2 TV's in my home.

I Need to get my Basic Roamio connected to my Mini. I have a powerline adapter at the mini, but that is not supported. The Tivos are on opposite sides of the house and both have coax close by. I use only OTA antenna for TV channels. I'm looking for the most reliable and inexpensive way.

The main question is does MoCA work with OTA signals?

Options I'm considering:
#1: Single Moca adapter at the Roamio, which is near my Modem/router. The Mini has Moca built in, correct? Is it requisite to use the Actiontec model on the Tivo site, or is there a less expensive option, like the Cisco dph548 or others that work as well?

#2: Two Direct TV Deca adapters, one at Roamio, another at Mini. Does Deca work with OTA?

#3: Run about 90ft of ethernet cable directly from my Roamio connected router, down my wall and under the whole house to reach the Mini. Would this yield a faster or more reliable connection? It's certainly more labor intensive, but I would rather avoid potential Moca networking issues, or OTA signal degradation if that is likely.
Must the Mini be directly connected to the roamio router, or can it go through another 4 hub router at it's destination?


That all looks very confusing to me, if it makes sense, thank you for any help!


----------



## HarperVision

drcordon said:


> Can I add a question to the 18 pages of MoCA chaos? I jumped off the Cable wagon about 10 years ago with a Tivo Series 2 and haven't looked back. Now I'm selling the series 3's and switching to a single Roamio/Mini combo. I only have 2 TV's in my home. I Need to get my Basic Roamio connected to my Mini. I have a powerline adapter at the mini, but that is not supported. The Tivos are on opposite sides of the house and both have coax close by. I use only OTA antenna for TV channels. I'm looking for the most reliable and inexpensive way. The main question is does MoCA work with OTA signals? Options I'm considering: #1: Single Moca adapter at the Roamio, which is near my Modem/router. The Mini has Moca built in, correct? Is it requisite to use the Actiontec model on the Tivo site, or is there a less expensive option, like the Cisco dph548 or others that work as well? #2: Two Direct TV Deca adapters, one at Roamio, another at Mini. Does Deca work with OTA? #3: Run about 90ft of ethernet cable directly from my Roamio connected router, down my wall and under the whole house to reach the Mini. Would this yield a faster or more reliable connection? It's certainly more labor intensive, but I would rather avoid potential Moca networking issues, or OTA signal degradation if that is likely. Must the Mini be directly connected to the roamio router, or can it go through another 4 hub router at it's destination? That all looks very confusing to me, if it makes sense, thank you for any help!


To answer #2, you'd have to find out what the frequencies are for your local broadcasts and then look up the frequency that your DECA is transmitting and make sure they don't conflict. They are indeed in the same freq range below 1GHz, just as cable TV is.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

drcordon said:


> Can I add a question to the 18 pages of MoCA chaos? I jumped off the Cable wagon about 10 years ago with a Tivo Series 2 and haven't looked back. Now I'm selling the series 3's and switching to a single Roamio/Mini combo. I only have 2 TV's in my home.
> 
> I Need to get my Basic Roamio connected to my Mini. I have a powerline adapter at the mini, but that is not supported. The Tivos are on opposite sides of the house and both have coax close by. I use only OTA antenna for TV channels. I'm looking for the most reliable and inexpensive way.
> 
> The main question is does MoCA work with OTA signals?
> 
> Options I'm considering:
> #1: Single Moca adapter at the Roamio, which is near my Modem/router. The Mini has Moca built in, correct? Is it requisite to use the Actiontec model on the Tivo site, or is there a less expensive option, like the Cisco dph548 or others that work as well?
> 
> #2: Two Direct TV Deca adapters, one at Roamio, another at Mini. Does Deca work with OTA?
> 
> #3: Run about 90ft of ethernet cable directly from my Roamio connected router, down my wall and under the whole house to reach the Mini. Would this yield a faster or more reliable connection? It's certainly more labor intensive, but I would rather avoid potential Moca networking issues, or OTA signal degradation if that is likely.
> Must the Mini be directly connected to the roamio router, or can it go through another 4 hub router at it's destination?


Moca can work fine with OTA.

If the basic Roamio is close enough to be connected by ethernet to the router, then all you need is 1 adapter. That adapter will have to be connected somewhere on the OTA coax lines used by the Roamio/Mini (behind the Roamio will likely work), and also connected to the router by ethernet. That's normally all it should take assuming your splitters are in good shape. The Mini will find the moca network during setup.

The cheapest the moca adapters go for is $50 on Tivo's site. Don't have much experience with deca to answer that part fully. There may be frequency overlap with OTA. But units that are multi-band might work.


----------



## HazelW

drcordon said:


> Can I add a question to the 18 pages of MoCA chaos? I jumped off the Cable wagon about 10 years ago with a Tivo Series 2 and haven't looked back. Now I'm selling the series 3's and switching to a single Roamio/Mini combo. I only have 2 TV's in my home.
> 
> I Need to get my Basic Roamio connected to my Mini. I have a powerline adapter at the mini, but that is not supported. The Tivos are on opposite sides of the house and both have coax close by. I use only OTA antenna for TV channels. I'm looking for the most reliable and inexpensive way.
> 
> The main question is does MoCA work with OTA signals?
> 
> Options I'm considering:
> #1: Single Moca adapter at the Roamio, which is near my Modem/router. The Mini has Moca built in, correct? Is it requisite to use the Actiontec model on the Tivo site, or is there a less expensive option, like the Cisco dph548 or others that work as well?
> 
> #2: Two Direct TV Deca adapters, one at Roamio, another at Mini. Does Deca work with OTA?
> 
> #3: Run about 90ft of ethernet cable directly from my Roamio connected router, down my wall and under the whole house to reach the Mini. Would this yield a faster or more reliable connection? It's certainly more labor intensive, but I would rather avoid potential Moca networking issues, or OTA signal degradation if that is likely.
> Must the Mini be directly connected to the roamio router, or can it go through another 4 hub router at it's destination?
> 
> That all looks very confusing to me, if it makes sense, thank you for any help!


 The powerline adapter should work OK. It will look like an ethernet port to the mini.


----------



## Random User 7

You can also get MI424WR from ebay and setup MoCa a bit cheaper. My preference is to use Rev F or newer routers because they support MoCa 1.1.


----------



## drcordon

HazelW said:


> The powerline adapter should work OK. It will look like an ethernet port to the mini.


I have the ethernet set up to the mini through the powerline adapter, but it doesn't recognize the network. I'm assuming it's because the mini is not directly connected to the router (by going through powerline), so the mini can't see the roamio. It did connect to the internet and go through setup, but won't connect to Roamio.


----------



## drcordon

Random User 7 said:


> You can also get MI424WR from ebay and setup MoCa a bit cheaper. My preference is to use Rev F or newer routers because they support MoCa 1.1.


Ok, so essentially I would have another hub connected to my current model/router, and the MI424WR would convert my coax to Moca? Since I have DSL I wouldn't be able to use this as a modem.
Looks like I can get a Rev F version for around $25 on ebay. Do you think this would perform better than the Actiontec from Tivo?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Actiontec-R...pt=US_Modem_Router_Combos&hash=item1e9459efb1


----------



## Marty1781

drcordon said:


> Ok, so essentially I would have another hub connected to my current model/router, and the MI424WR would convert my coax to Moca? Since I have DSL I wouldn't be able to use this as a modem.
> Looks like I can get a Rev F version for around $25 on ebay. Do you think this would perform better than the Actiontec from Tivo?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Actiontec-R...pt=US_Modem_Router_Combos&hash=item1e9459efb1


Correct, you would connect an ethernet cable from your router LAN to one of the Rev F's LAN ports. Then plug coax from the wall into the Rev F. Then follow these instructions:

http://www.dslreports.com/faq/15993

It will function the same as the Actiontec from Tivo (just costs you less).


----------



## Marty1781

drcordon said:


> I have the ethernet set up to the mini through the powerline adapter, but it doesn't recognize the network. I'm assuming it's because the mini is not directly connected to the router (by going through powerline), so the mini can't see the roamio. It did connect to the internet and go through setup, but won't connect to Roamio.


It can take up to 24 hours after you've activated the Mini for it to receive the signal from Tivo to allow it to communicate properly with the Roamio. Sometimes you can get around this delay by forcing a service connection on both the Roamio and Mini and rebooting both. I have three Minis and for two of them, the method I just described worked. For the third Mini, I had to wait 24 hours for it to receive the signal that allows it to see/communicate with the Roamio and no amount of forced service connections/rebooting would speed up the process for this particular unit.


----------



## Marty1781

drcordon said:


> Can I add a question to the 18 pages of MoCA chaos? I jumped off the Cable wagon about 10 years ago with a Tivo Series 2 and haven't looked back. Now I'm selling the series 3's and switching to a single Roamio/Mini combo. I only have 2 TV's in my home.
> 
> I Need to get my Basic Roamio connected to my Mini. I have a powerline adapter at the mini, but that is not supported. The Tivos are on opposite sides of the house and both have coax close by. I use only OTA antenna for TV channels. I'm looking for the most reliable and inexpensive way.
> 
> The main question is does MoCA work with OTA signals?
> 
> Options I'm considering:
> #1: Single Moca adapter at the Roamio, which is near my Modem/router. The Mini has Moca built in, correct? Is it requisite to use the Actiontec model on the Tivo site, or is there a less expensive option, like the Cisco dph548 or others that work as well?
> 
> #2: Two Direct TV Deca adapters, one at Roamio, another at Mini. Does Deca work with OTA?
> 
> #3: Run about 90ft of ethernet cable directly from my Roamio connected router, down my wall and under the whole house to reach the Mini. Would this yield a faster or more reliable connection? It's certainly more labor intensive, but I would rather avoid potential Moca networking issues, or OTA signal degradation if that is likely.
> Must the Mini be directly connected to the roamio router, or can it go through another 4 hub router at it's destination?
> 
> That all looks very confusing to me, if it makes sense, thank you for any help!


1. Actiontec on Tivo's site is fine. An alternative as previously mentioned is to get a MI424WR from ebay and reconfigure it.

2. Not sure about using Deca.

3. If you have the option to connect the Mini through ethernet directly to the same router as the Roamio, that is preferred but may not be necessary. Tivo does not officially support the use of secondary hubs/switches and these can sometimes cause issues (especially the ones with "green" power technology). However, I use a switch with one of my Minis and it works fine (others though have not been so lucky). I personally prefer to use MoCA since it will keep the Mini's streaming traffic off my primary network. Otherwise though, you should see similar performance whether you decide to use ethernet or MoCA.


----------



## nooneuknow

Marty1781 said:


> 1. Actiontec on Tivo's site is fine. An alternative as previously mentioned is to get a MI424WR from ebay and reconfigure it.
> 
> 2. Not sure about using Deca.
> 
> 3. If you have the option to connect the Mini through ethernet directly to the same router as the Roamio, that is preferred but may not be necessary. Tivo does not officially support the use of secondary hubs/switches and these can sometimes cause issues (especially the ones with "green" power technology). However, I use a switch with one of my Minis and it works fine (others though have not been so lucky). I personally prefer to use MoCA since it will keep the Mini's streaming traffic off my primary network. Otherwise though, you should see similar performance whether you decide to use ethernet or MoCA.


That whole "green switch issue" was resolved a long time ago, and many software updates ago. But, TiVo won't help you with any networking issues (or any issues they suspect to be network related), unless you appease the support droids by making home-run connections from all the TiVos and/or Minis to the router (the router's own built-in, often "green" ethernet switch). That issue still remains, and they will push you to use MoCA, or the home-run ethernet way. The way they try to force MoCA on Mini users, they shouldn't have even put the RJ-45 ethernet jack in...

That said, there are plenty of people using ethernet and switches for everything. The "fix" for the outdated issue of "green" (energy-efficient ethernet standard) switches, was to insert a non-green switch as the first switch the TiVo went through, then remove it after they fixed the software.

I set up three base Roamios that shipped with the software sensitive to green switches, and had no issue downloading the software with the fix, or any setup before that point.

I tend to agree with just going MoCA for Minis (unless you have no TiVos with MoCA built-in, and don't want to pay for the MoCA adapters).

DECA I'm going to not comment on, other than I doubt it will work for most with CATV TiVos.


----------



## Bigg

confinoj said:


> Any recs for a good 3 way moca splitter.


*There is no such thing as a MoCA splitter.*



drcordon said:


> I have the ethernet set up to the mini through the powerline adapter, but it doesn't recognize the network. I'm assuming it's because the mini is not directly connected to the router (by going through powerline), so the mini can't see the roamio. It did connect to the internet and go through setup, but won't connect to Roamio.


Powerline adapters, if paired correctly, should look like an ethernet cable. A Mini might work over them, it did for me, but YMMV. However, even if the bandwidth is deficient for streaming video from the Roamio, it will still try, it will just stutter and break up, and you will still be able to connect and scroll through your recordings, etc.



nooneuknow said:


> That whole "green switch issue" was resolved a long time ago, and many software updates ago. But, TiVo won't help you with any networking issues (or any issues they suspect to be network related), unless you appease the support droids by making home-run connections from all the TiVos and/or Minis to the router (the router's own built-in, often "green" ethernet switch). That issue still remains, and they will push you to use MoCA, or the home-run ethernet way. The way they try to force MoCA on Mini users, they shouldn't have even put the RJ-45 ethernet jack in...


It's better to have options, even if they aren't supported by TiVo.



> I tend to agree with just going MoCA for Minis (unless you have no TiVos with MoCA built-in, and don't want to pay for the MoCA adapters).


Yeah, I would just go with MoCA, although for OTA users, they don't have MoCA built in like the Pro and Plus do.



> DECA I'm going to not comment on, other than I doubt it will work for most with CATV TiVos.


DECA will NOT work with CATV. Period. It _might_ work with OTA, depending on what channels use what frequency in the user's area, but it's a really poor shortcut vs. just using MoCA designed to work with cable/OTA.


----------



## Random User 7

drcordon said:


> Ok, so essentially I would have another hub connected to my current model/router, and the MI424WR would convert my coax to Moca? Since I have DSL I wouldn't be able to use this as a modem.
> Looks like I can get a Rev F version for around $25 on ebay. Do you think this would perform better than the Actiontec from Tivo?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Actiontec-R...pt=US_Modem_Router_Combos&hash=item1e9459efb1


I made a few offers in that. The guy wouldn't budge below $29 so if ou want it offer him that. If you look at others make sure they have the power supply and again are at least Rev F. Imstructions I followed http://www.avsforum.com/forum/36-ho...-actiontec-mi424wr-cheap-moca-bridge-all.html


----------



## HarperVision

Bigg said:


> ......... DECA will NOT work with CATV. Period. It might work with OTA, depending on what channels use what frequency in the user's area, but it's a really poor shortcut vs. just using MoCA designed to work with cable/OTA.


Yes, it can work and does work. I am and have been using it for years. All you have to ensure is that you have your main cable feed separated from the rest of your home's coaxial cable. Just run the main cable feed in to your Roamio, and split that feed to your cable modem if you use one. Then take the Ethernet output of your modem/router combo and feed that into the DECA unit. Then use the deca's RF coax output to feed the rest of your home with modulated DECA internet signals. Place another DECA and demodulate the signal back to Ethernet and connect a TiVo mini wherever you need and have a coax output jack. I also connect an Ethernet switch on them to distribute internet signals throughout my home.

Voila, cheap and easy whole home Ethernet and TiVo DVR setup.


----------



## drcordon

Marty1781 said:


> It can take up to 24 hours after you've activated the Mini for it to receive the signal from Tivo to allow it to communicate properly with the Roamio.


The Mini arrived activated already since I bought it on Tivo.com under my account. But just to be sure, I checked again today, and even rebooted. I got through guided setup, and was able to find the Roamio through my network by bypassing my hub (Netgear WNR2000v2) and going straight to the powerline. But then when I tried to play a recorded show I got 
"Your home network is not fast enough for you to watch this show. If you are using a wireless network, you may want to switch to using an Ethernet cable. 
Tivo.com/help/V69"

When I tried Live TV, nothing happened, just black screen. I figured I would at least be able to pass the OTA signal through the Mini without having it networked, but no.

I guess I'll be trying MoCA next.

Thanks all for the tips.


----------



## Marty1781

drcordon said:


> The Mini arrived activated already since I bought it on Tivo.com under my account.


The Mini may have already arrived linked to your account but it wasn't completely "activated." The Mini needs to be connected to your home network in order to be fully activated. Both it and the Roamio need to receive a signal from Tivo that let's them properly communicate with each other.



drcordon said:


> But just to be sure, I checked again today, and even rebooted. I got through guided setup, and was able to find the Roamio through my network by bypassing my hub (Netgear WNR2000v2) and going straight to the powerline.


Sounds like the Mini received the necessary activation signal from Tivo sometime in the last 24 hours (since previously, you stated that it would not connect to the Roamio at all).



drcordon said:


> But then when I tried to play a recorded show I got
> "Your home network is not fast enough for you to watch this show. If you are using a wireless network, you may want to switch to using an Ethernet cable.
> Tivo.com/help/V69"


The speed/quality you get with powerline adapters is highly dependent on the quality of the electrical wiring in your home. If you have a home with older wiring, it likely can't support the streaming speed needed for the Mini to properly stream from the Roamio.



drcordon said:


> When I tried Live TV, nothing happened, just black screen. I figured I would at least be able to pass the OTA signal through the Mini without having it networked, but no.


The Mini streams everything (it has no builtin tuners) so passing the OTA signal to the Mini wouldn't really accomplish anything since it has no tuner to tune it in. The Mini relies on the Roamio for everything so whether you are trying to pass OTA or cable, it's all the same to the Mini in the sense that it doesn't matter, it just needs a solid connection to the Roamio.



drcordon said:


> I guess I'll be trying MoCA next.
> 
> Thanks all for the tips.


MoCA should work well. If for whatever reason it doesn't, you can always try using a wireless bridge with the Mini. Let us know how it works out and/or if you need additional help setting it up.


----------



## confinoj

confinoj said:


> Good idea about splitters. The three way splitter was the only one I could find locally and I was inpatient. I also noticed that some poe filters say catv only. Any recs for a good 3 way moca splitter. Holland? Also I think due to the preamp I need a splitter there that is one way power pass and it's mostly satellite splitters that do this. Any recs for a more moca compliant splitter to do this. Also I ordered the TiVo poe filter. Was this a reasonable choice?
> 
> Update:
> I ordered a 3 way unbalanced MocA splitter from Holland (GHS-3pro-m) and found a 2 way 5-1000MHz splitter with one port power pass (perfect vision PV22233) to replace the directv one I am using. Although it should be noted that the directv splitter is actually designed for Directv's MoCA (DECA) which runs on lower frequencies than standard MoCA so not sure it will be any better.


Well still no success but learned some things. Replaced both the splitters (see attached sketch of setup again) with the ones I noted above. Still same problem - room 2 and 3 won't link at same time but still do individually. Added POE filter without change. Of note the POE does not pass power for pre-amp power injector so had to install it up by antenna between ant and pre-amp. This time however if I remove power to the pre-amp it works. This was not the case before - I had to disconnect the antenna to get it to work. Not sure what the difference is. Maybe antenna loss was previously an issue but now the new splitter doesn't work well with the pre-amp set up? Wondering if I should re-try the directv splitter with the POE filter in place. Maybe it isolated power better? For now I'm just not using the pre-amp. I'm not far from our OTA transmitters and currently using a directional antenna (RCA ANT751) although not all transmitters are same direction making aiming it tricky. I get all local stations but without the pre-amp some have a borderline signal and during certain times or with inclement weather signal becomes too weak. Pre-amp fixes this. I could also try just getting a different multidirectional antenna (like the clearstream 2v) but that's another $100. Another thought is just a regular cable/ant inline amp in room 3 placed between moca adapter output and Tivo instead of the pre-amp (I connect network via ethernet from moca adapter)? Will report back with what happens and certainly anyone chime in with any thoughts.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

confinoj said:


> Well still no success but learned some things. Replaced both the splitters (see attached sketch of setup again)


I might have to go back and read over the details of this scenario again, but just glancing at the diagram without any other context the setup seems atypical because the coax hierarchy leads to the adapter rather than the video source, and as drawn the ANT seems to feed "upstream" unless I'm not understanding something correctly.

1. The moca adapter connected to the router... the coax is connected to the RF-in on the adapter, correct? (You don't want it on the RF-out).

2. What if you were to use a 4-way splitter and connect the host adapter (from RF-in) to the 4th input of the splitter, rather than feeding the input side of the 3-way? (ideally the ANT would feed the input side of the primary splitter.)

I might be reading into nothing and it might not matter, but it's not the usual setup either.


----------



## confinoj

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I might have to go back and read over the details of this scenario again, but just glancing at the diagram the setup seems atypical because the coax hierarchy leads to the adapter rather than the video source, and as drawn the ANT seems to feed "up" unless I'm not understanding something correctly.
> 
> 1. The moca adapter connected to the router... the coax is connected to the RF-in on the adapter, correct? (You don't want it on the RF-out).
> 
> 2. What if you were to use a 4-way splitter and connect the host adapter (from RF-in) to the 4th input of the splitter, rather than feeding the input side of the 3-way? (ideally the ANT would feed the input side, but one thing at a time.)
> 
> I might be reading into nothing and it might not matter, but it's not the usual setup either.


Yes coax to RF in on host adapter. Actually it's the actiontec 4 port gige model which only has an in port.

Not sure I get the second rec if the splitters are bi-directional. If it helps I only actually need the ant feed to room 3 where my tivo is. Other rooms are just for network connections. I'm thinking right now the simplest option is to leave the pre-amp out and just try a single port amp between TV out of adapter and tivo in room 3. It's not an ideal placement for an amp but worth a try. If it works then there is nothing messing with the moca network.


----------



## saeba

Just wanted to say "Thank You!" for this very instructional and helpful thread. I had a couple of wireless bridges in my house and had never been quite satisfied with their operation, but was reluctant to try MoCA. This thread gave me the courage and knowledge to go ahead with it.

I setup an Actiontec ECB3500T01 as my main bridge connecting into my upstairs gigabit ethernet backbone and my coax. I then have a Roamio Pro downstairs in my family room that connects to MoCA and bridges to an ethernet gigabit switch for my PS3 and Google TV.

Based upon this successful test, I've ordered a second ECB3500T01 to setup in the downstairs master bedroom to connect in a TiVo Premiere via MoCA <-> Ethernet.

Easiest network setup I've done. No more wireless (except for phones !!


----------



## buckyswider

out of curiosity, why do you need any MoCA bridge other than the Roamio Pro?


----------



## aaronwt

I also got one of those Actiontec GigE bridges to accomodate my Minis. The Roamios have better transfer performance if they don't have the MoCA devices leeching off of it. I tried connections multiple ways. From a user perspective it will be identical, but if you want the fastest transfer speeds, using the Roamio as the MoCA bridge slows things down a little.


----------



## saeba

buckyswider said:


> out of curiosity, why do you need any MoCA bridge other than the Roamio Pro?


Coax runs all-over the house, ethernet is strictly upstairs and the Roamio is downstairs. So it didn't really work out to have the Roamio be the main bridge.

As to adding a second Actiontec in the master bedroom, the Premiere there doesn't do MoCA and there's no ethernet in the room, so need the second Actiontec.


----------



## Random User 7

Just fully installed mine today using two MI424WRs I obtained from eBay. One is in my wire closet and the other is for the Roamio basic. The Mini is upstairs using the built in adapter. The coax comes off the one in the closet to a splitter going to the Mini and the other to the MI424WR connected to the Roamio. 

Working great but I do have a question. Leftover from previous installs I have a VSDDT-9 Digital plus tap and a Echostar 190506 Tap. Would either of these be better to use then the 2way splitter I'm currently using? The Echostar has MoCa written on so I wasn't sure if that would be better. I plan to research it more tomorrow but was curious if anyone knew off hand.


----------



## confinoj

confinoj said:


> Yes coax to RF in on host adapter. Actually it's the actiontec 4 port gige model which only has an in port.
> 
> Not sure I get the second rec if the splitters are bi-directional. If it helps I only actually need the ant feed to room 3 where my tivo is. Other rooms are just for network connections. I'm thinking right now the simplest option is to leave the pre-amp out and just try a single port amp between TV out of adapter and tivo in room 3. It's not an ideal placement for an amp but worth a try. If it works then there is nothing messing with the moca network.


Well it turns out it actually was the pre-amp the whole time. Not sure why I had different results first time around. I retried my initial splitter setup and removing power from pre-amp power injector consistently gets all adapters to link up. So I'm leaving pre-amp out and using an inline amp right before coax enters TiVo. Seems to work reasonably well. Moca network now perfect. I have multiple routers now essentially hard wired and my house now for the first time ever has great wifi coverage all over. Home theater setup and multiple Apple TVs now essentially hard wired too. I'm loving it. Moca is a great solution for houses with coax but no ethernet. Thanks for all the help.


----------



## buckyswider

saeba said:


> Coax runs all-over the house, ethernet is strictly upstairs and the Roamio is downstairs. So it didn't really work out to have the Roamio be the main bridge.
> 
> As to adding a second Actiontec in the master bedroom, the Premiere there doesn't do MoCA and there's no ethernet in the room, so need the second Actiontec.


ah, now i get it. the roamio actually creates the network for that gigabit switch for the ps3 and apple. and i totally zoned on the premiere part. gotcha.


----------



## Bigg

HarperVision said:


> Yes, it can work and does work. I am and have been using it for years. All you have to ensure is that you have your main cable feed separated from the rest of your home's coaxial cable. Just run the main cable feed in to your Roamio, and split that feed to your cable modem if you use one. Then take the Ethernet output of your modem/router combo and feed that into the DECA unit. Then use the deca's RF coax output to feed the rest of your home with modulated DECA internet signals. Place another DECA and demodulate the signal back to Ethernet and connect a TiVo mini wherever you need and have a coax output jack. I also connect an Ethernet switch on them to distribute internet signals throughout my home.
> 
> Voila, cheap and easy whole home Ethernet and TiVo DVR setup.


Let me repeat myself. *DECA WILL NOT work with cable TV.*

What you have is a _completely separate_ DECA network that is NOT connected to cable. Hence, the DECA *doesn't* work with your cable.

That's even worse of a kludge, as a TiVo Mini now needs a DECA adapter, versus just using MoCA, where it can use it's built-in adapter.


----------



## Sportsnut

I have Fios with a Roamio basic and mini, both connected to the Fios Actiontec router via ethernet. If I add another mini in my bedroom that doesn't have ethernet can I connect it via Moca while the others are connected via ethernet at the same time?


----------



## HarperVision

Bigg said:


> Let me repeat myself. DECA WILL NOT work with cable TV. What you have is a completely separate DECA network that is NOT connected to cable. Hence, the DECA doesn't work with your cable. That's even worse of a kludge, as a TiVo Mini now needs a DECA adapter, versus just using MoCA, where it can use it's built-in adapter.


I have cable, I have deca, therefore they work "with" each other, just not in the manner you think they should. Sure, they can't work on top of each other on the same cable, which I've said many times, but if someone has a Host Roamio and the rest of their home are minis, this solution can work very easily and nicely.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Sportsnut said:


> I have Fios with a Roamio basic and mini, both connected to the Fios Actiontec router via ethernet. If I add another mini in my bedroom that doesn't have ethernet can I connect it via Moca while the others are connected via ethernet at the same time?


Yep, assuming your actiontec router is connected via coax to the ONT (most are).


----------



## Sportsnut

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yep, assuming your actiontec router is connected via coax to the ONT (most are).


Thanks, I believe it is so I should be good to go. I was hoping for another deal on a mini since I missed out on the deals a while back but I haven't seen any for a while so I'll probably have to settle for the amazon deal. Still a lot better than what I paid last year before the price change.


----------



## Random User 7

Sams club had it for $114 and Frys seems to have it for $118 often. Both online only but free shipping.


----------



## Bigg

HarperVision said:


> I have cable, I have deca, therefore they work "with" each other, just not in the manner you think they should. Sure, they can't work on top of each other on the same cable, which I've said many times, but if someone has a Host Roamio and the rest of their home are minis, this solution can work very easily and nicely.


No. You are saying two different things. *DECA and cable are NOT compatible. Period.* You are running an isolated DECA network that's not connected to your cable network, hence they are two totally irrelevant systems that have nothing to do with each other. Your isolated DECA network is just another computer network that you happen to have TiVos on. That has nothing to do with cable TV and nothing to do with TiVo per se. You could just as well have an isolated MoCA or HPNA network.

You can just as well make a home network out of HPNA, PowerLine AV500, fiber, Wireless AC, or anything else that will make a computer network, and have TiVo Minis work over it. None of those are directly compatible with cable either, including HPNA, which also runs on coax and is also incompatible with cable.



BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yep, assuming your actiontec router is connected via coax to the ONT (most are).


Even if it's connected via Ethernet WAN, as long as the router is creating a MoCA LAN, it would work.


----------



## Sportsnut

Random User 7 said:


> Sams club had it for $114 and Frys seems to have it for $118 often. Both online only but free shipping.


It looks like Sams no longer has it online, it's not on their website anymore. I've been watching Frys waiting for the next deal.


----------



## Random User 7

Any ideas what the idea range is for TX Power/RX Power?


----------



## HarperVision

Bigg said:


> No. You are saying two different things. DECA and cable are NOT compatible. Period. You are running an isolated DECA network that's not connected to your cable network, hence they are two totally irrelevant systems that have nothing to do with each other. Your isolated DECA network is just another computer network that you happen to have TiVos on. That has nothing to do with cable TV and nothing to do with TiVo per se. You could just as well have an isolated MoCA or HPNA network. You can just as well make a home network out of HPNA, PowerLine AV500, fiber, Wireless AC, or anything else that will make a computer network, and have TiVo Minis work over it. None of those are directly compatible with cable either, including HPNA, which also runs on coax and is also incompatible with cable. Even if it's connected via Ethernet WAN, as long as the router is creating a MoCA LAN, it would work.


Dude, I know what you're saying and have agreed with you, but you have to stop with your absolutes because you're going to confuse new members and possible TiVo clients by making them think if they have cable of any sort that they then MUST use moca, which is totally untrue. They CAN use my method "WITH" CABLE!!!

I am done. You just always love to be argumentive instead of cooperative. Just look at almost every thread you're in. Slow your roll!


----------



## Bigg

HarperVision said:


> Dude, I know what you're saying and have agreed with you, but you have to stop with your absolutes because you're going to confuse new members and possible TiVo clients by making them think if they have cable of any sort that they then MUST use moca, which is totally untrue. They CAN use my method "WITH" CABLE!!!
> 
> I am done. You just always love to be argumentive instead of cooperative. Just look at almost every thread you're in. Slow your roll!


No, you're going to confuse people by saying that DECA works with cable TV. It doesn't. Yes, it will work as an isolated network, but that has nothing to do with TiVo more than making an isolated network for a bunch of networked devices. And most people don't have enough coax runs or DECA adapters to do what you're doing. Since the TiVo Mini has MoCA built in, there is no point to using DECA, even if you have the extra coax available, since it requires a whole bunch MORE hardware than MoCA.


----------



## saeba

FYI - Just received and installed my second Actiontec ECB3500T01 and discovered that the Roamio isn't as good a performer as a ethernet/MoCA bridge as the Actiontec.

I did testing between a laptop and my desktop PC which has a web server running the Speedtest.net Mini Bandwidth Speed Test. With both on gigabit ethernet, the laptop running FireFox results in speeds of over 300 Mbps when running the speedtest on the desktop. When I moved the laptop downstairs and connected it to a gigabit switch connected to the Roamio Pro (so Desktop PC -> Actiontec1 -> MoCA -> Roamio Pro -> gigabit switch -> laptop), it would only do 105 Mbps. Just now testing it on the second Actiontec (so Desktop PC -> Actiontec1 -> MoCA -> Actiontec2 -> laptop) the laptop did 165 Mbps. 

So the Roamio Pro with it's gigabit ethernet port is still an inferior bridge to the Actiontec ECB3500T01. And the Actiontec has 4 gigabit ethernet ports.


----------



## HarperVision

Bigg said:


> No, you're going to confuse people by saying that DECA works with cable TV. It doesn't. Yes, it will work as an isolated network, but that has nothing to do with TiVo more than making an isolated network for a bunch of networked devices. And most people don't have enough coax runs or DECA adapters to do what you're doing. Since the TiVo Mini has MoCA built in, there is no point to using DECA, even if you have the extra coax available, since it requires a whole bunch MORE hardware than MoCA.


So you're going to stick with your untrue "absolute" story that if someone has cable tv as their service provider, as I do, that they can't use deca to transmit whole home signals to their minis and enjoy just like anyone else with a host Roamio and minis throughout their house on moca? How is this ANY different unless someone happens to have another full TiVo or wants a raw RF cable signal to their tv, etc. elsewhere in their home? In the Roamio whole home day and age (which you seem to ignore), there isn't really a reason to distribute the RF cable signal any further than where the host TiVo resides, except in the use cases above which I've agreed with and mentioned MANY times already, that it doesn't work ON TOP OF cable, but it can work WITH cable as your service. Get your head out of the "Absolutes" cloud!


----------



## confinoj

saeba said:


> FYI - Just received and installed my second Actiontec ECB3500T01 and discovered that the Roamio isn't as good a performer as a ethernet/MoCA bridge as the Actiontec.
> 
> I did testing between a laptop and my desktop PC which has a web server running the Speedtest.net Mini Bandwidth Speed Test. With both on gigabit ethernet, the laptop running FireFox results in speeds of over 300 Mbps when running the speedtest on the desktop. When I moved the laptop downstairs and connected it to a gigabit switch connected to the Roamio Pro (so Desktop PC -> Actiontec1 -> MoCA -> Roamio Pro -> gigabit switch -> laptop), it would only do 105 Mbps. Just now testing it on the second Actiontec (so Desktop PC -> Actiontec1 -> MoCA -> Actiontec2 -> laptop) the laptop did 165 Mbps.
> 
> So the Roamio Pro with it's gigabit ethernet port is still an inferior bridge to the Actiontec ECB3500T01. And the Actiontec has 4 gigabit ethernet ports.


I too have 2 ECB3500T01's. Also mixed with 2 ECB2500's. They all get close to their respective max speeds which is great. Somewhat off topic questions that I can't find answers to but though I'd ask here. On the ECB3500T01 there is a "speed" indicator light. I have no idea what it means. It's usually off, sometime amber, and rarely green. Anybody have a clue what it means? Second question is the ECB2500 config utility. Out of curiosity tried it to check link speeds of all devices. While I can log on to one of the ECB2500 units (direct ethernet to computer and switch in config position) it will not find any other moca adapters on the network to show link speed. Clearly they are linked and functioning normally. Obviously doesn't really matter but just curious if anyone tinkered with it and got it to work. Thanks.


----------



## saeba

confinoj said:


> While I can log on to one of the ECB2500 units (direct ethernet to computer and switch in config position) it will not find any other moca adapters on the network to show link speed.


The Actiontec ECB3500T01 comes with no documentation and there's little info on their website.

I found the following info in an Amazon customer review on how to access the ECB3500T01 using a web browser. In the web interface you can see/do things like: set web password, set moca security password, set moca channel, set static IP address, see device status, see PHY rates of all moca nodes, etc. This is very useful!

Accessing the web interface on the ECB3500T01.

The ECB3500T uses a default IP of 192.168.99.254 when it is not connected to a DHCP server. You won't be able to access it if it is connected to your router and gets DHCP IP.

Please use the following instructions to change the password.

1. Connect your computer to the ECB3500T via Ethernet cable. *Do not connect the coax cable yet.*

ECB3500T <--Ethernet --> Computer

2. Power on ECB3500T.

3. On your computer, configure your Ethernet network to use static IP of 192.168.99.10. (or any other IP in the 192.168.99.x subnet except 192.168.99.254)

4. Open http://192.168.99.254 using any web browser.

5. Login with the username "admin" and password "password".

6. Click on "Security Settings" link on the left pane.

7. Under "MOCA NETWORK SECURITY SETUP" you will be able to turn on encryption and change the default password.

8. Save the settings and reboot, connect the coax cable to your coax wall outlet.


----------



## confinoj

saeba said:


> The Actiontec ECB3500T01 comes with no documentation and there's little info on their website.
> 
> I found the following info in an Amazon customer review on how to access the ECB3500T01 using a web browser. In the web interface you can see/do things like: set web password, set moca security password, set moca channel, set static IP address, see device status, see PHY rates of all moca nodes, etc. This is very useful!
> 
> Accessing the web interface on the ECB3500T01.
> 
> The ECB3500T uses a default IP of 192.168.99.254 when it is not connected to a DHCP server. You won't be able to access it if it is connected to your router and gets DHCP IP.
> 
> Please use the following instructions to change the password.
> 
> 1. Connect your computer to the ECB3500T via Ethernet cable. *Do not connect the coax cable yet.*
> 
> ECB3500T <--Ethernet --> Computer
> 
> 2. Power on ECB3500T.
> 
> 3. On your computer, configure your Ethernet network to use static IP of 192.168.99.10. (or any other IP in the 192.168.99.x subnet except 192.168.99.254)
> 
> 4. Open http://192.168.99.254 using any web browser.
> 
> 5. Login with the username "admin" and password "password".
> 
> 6. Click on "Security Settings" link on the left pane.
> 
> 7. Under "MOCA NETWORK SECURITY SETUP" you will be able to turn on encryption and change the default password.
> 
> 8. Save the settings and reboot, connect the coax cable to your coax wall outlet.


Thanks, but if you have coax disconnected how do you get moca link speeds? Do you re-connect once logged in? So no idea about speed indicator?


----------



## saeba

confinoj said:


> Thanks, but if you have coax disconnected how do you get moca link speeds? Do you re-connect once logged in? So no idea about speed indicator?


You only have the coax disconnected while you do the initial setup. When I set my ECB3500T01 up, I set it to a static IP address (192.168.1.15) in my home network. Then, after rebooting it and connecting it up to coax, I can use a web browser on a PC to access it at http://192.168.1.15 and view the PHY speeds for all the moca nodes.

No idea on the speed indicator. Mine show green on my 2 units.


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## confinoj

saeba said:


> You only have the coax disconnected while you do the initial setup. When I set my ECB3500T01 up, I set it to a static IP address (192.168.1.15) in my home network. Then, after rebooting it and connecting it up to coax, I can use a web browser on a PC to access it at http://192.168.1.15 and view the PHY speeds for all the moca nodes.
> 
> No idea on the speed indicator. Mine show green on my 2 units.


Thanks will give it try tonight.


----------



## Marty1781

confinoj said:


> On the ECB3500T01 there is a "speed" indicator light. I have no idea what it means. It's usually off, sometime amber, and rarely green. Anybody have a clue what it means?


The green light indicates a link speed of >225 mbps and an amber light indicates speed of 150-224 mbps. I had to call Actiontec in order to get this information (not available on the website). Apparently, the speed indicator LED is only present on the early run production units but was taken out on the later runs. I purchased a unit from Staples about a month ago and it had the speed indicator LED on it so I guess it had been sitting around for a while.


----------



## saeba

Marty1781 said:


> Apparently, the speed indicator LED is only present on the early run production units but was taken out on the later runs. I purchased a unit from Staples about a month ago and it had the speed indicator LED on it so I guess it had been sitting around for a while.


Thanks for the info!

I have the speed indicator on 2 units that I just bought from Amazon. I've got another on order (to replace my Roamio as a bridge), I hope it has it as well.

Have to say - love the product, not too impressed with the Actiontec non-existent documentation or their useless website.


----------



## aaronwt

saeba said:


> FYI - Just received and installed my second Actiontec ECB3500T01 and discovered that the Roamio isn't as good a performer as a ethernet/MoCA bridge as the Actiontec.
> 
> I did testing between a laptop and my desktop PC which has a web server running the Speedtest.net Mini Bandwidth Speed Test. With both on gigabit ethernet, the laptop running FireFox results in speeds of over 300 Mbps when running the speedtest on the desktop. When I moved the laptop downstairs and connected it to a gigabit switch connected to the Roamio Pro (so Desktop PC -> Actiontec1 -> MoCA -> Roamio Pro -> gigabit switch -> laptop), it would only do 105 Mbps. Just now testing it on the second Actiontec (so Desktop PC -> Actiontec1 -> MoCA -> Actiontec2 -> laptop) the laptop did 165 Mbps.
> 
> So the Roamio Pro with it's gigabit ethernet port is still an inferior bridge to the Actiontec ECB3500T01. And the Actiontec has 4 gigabit ethernet ports.


Yes, I mentioned earlier how using the Roamio as a Bridge was a little slower. But I didn't remember the difference being so large.


----------



## confinoj

Marty1781 said:


> The green light indicates a link speed of >225 mbps and an amber light indicates speed of 150-224 mbps. I had to call Actiontec in order to get this information (not available on the website). Apparently, the speed indicator LED is only present on the early run production units but was taken out on the later runs. I purchased a unit from Staples about a month ago and it had the speed indicator LED on it so I guess it had been sitting around for a while.


Odd they don't publish any of this info. I wonder how accurate the indicator really is. As I said mine is usually off or amber but I seem to get about 160-170mb/s data rate which is close to the 175mb/s data rate limit of moca 1.1.


----------



## aaronwt

The Actiontec is also inferior as a GigE switch. For TiVo use it's perfectly fine but for GigE connections the speeds seemed to max out around 600mb/s if I remember correctly. 

I initially had my TiVo PC connected directly to the Actiontec but since I couldn't get my normal 900mb/s + throughput to my PCs, so I switched it back to a Dlink GigE switch. So the Actiontec connects to my Minis over MoCA and then uses one of it's GigE ports to go to my Dlink switch which then gives it access to my Roamios, Premiere and TiVo PC. As well as internet access for the Minis.


----------



## Bigg

HarperVision said:


> So you're going to stick with your untrue "absolute" story that if someone has cable tv as their service provider, as I do, that they can't use deca to transmit whole home signals to their minis and enjoy just like anyone else with a host Roamio and minis throughout their house on moca? How is this ANY different unless someone happens to have another full TiVo or wants a raw RF cable signal to their tv, etc. elsewhere in their home? In the Roamio whole home day and age (which you seem to ignore), there isn't really a reason to distribute the RF cable signal any further than where the host TiVo resides, except in the use cases above which I've agreed with and mentioned MANY times already, that it doesn't work ON TOP OF cable, but it can work WITH cable as your service. Get your head out of the "Absolutes" cloud!


What I said is 100% correct. DECA and cable are NOT compatible. Of course any two technologies, when they are running on totally separate networks, can run alongside each other. Running on a second, separate set of RG-6 cables is NOT working WITH cable. It's working on a totally SEPARATE network. So those two things have nothing to do with each other.

Most people don't have two RG-6 runs to where their Roamio is, and you still haven't shown why there is a point to adding a whole bunch of extra hardware to the TiVo setup, when MoCA can do it without the extra adapters on each Mini, and with a single coax network?



confinoj said:


> Odd they don't publish any of this info. I wonder how accurate the indicator really is. As I said mine is usually off or amber but I seem to get about 160-170mb/s data rate which is close to the 175mb/s data rate limit of moca 1.1.


Is it MoCA 2.0 then? MoCA 1.1 can't get anywhere near the speeds posted above.


----------



## confinoj

Bigg said:


> Is it MoCA 2.0 then? MoCA 1.1 can't get anywhere near the speeds posted above.


Umm, these are standard moca 1.1 speeds. Maybe you were reading it as megabytes (capital B), not megabits. I wish I could get moca 2.0. I can't find any consumer devices.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The above speeds are most likely PHY rates (PHY rates are always higher than data rates).

Moca 1.1 peaks at around 275-ish (175 mbps data).


----------



## confinoj

Right. Marty1781 was referring to PHY rates in reference to the speed indicator on the ecb3500t01 units. I was referring to actual data rate on my network. That's why I indicated I am surprised that I'm getting close to full data rates with an off or amber light should indicate a low PHY rate and hence not close to full data rate.


----------



## aaronwt

If the above rates someone listed earlier were PHY rates wouldn't that be rather slow? On my four Minis the MoCA PHY rates are listed between 270Mbps and 290Mbps.

My Actiontec has a spot listed as speed. But I have never seen an LED light up there. I've only seen the power, Coax, and switch port LEDs light up.


----------



## saeba

saeba said:


> I have the speed indicator on 2 units that I just bought from Amazon. I've got another on order (to replace my Roamio as a bridge), I hope it has it as well.


I received my third ECB3500T01 and set it up. All three have the speed indicator. Doing my laptop <-> Desktop speed test, I can get 160Mbps through the Actiontecs. Here's the PHY status display (3 Actiontec units and the Roamio):

From/To:
#	000	001	002	003	
0	266	272	268	271
1	265	265	269	269	
2	270	269	268	275	
3	280	269	271	274


----------



## Bigg

confinoj said:


> Umm, these are standard moca 1.1 speeds. Maybe you were reading it as megabytes (capital B), not megabits. I wish I could get moca 2.0. I can't find any consumer devices.


A post above says real-world 165mbps. I thought 175mbps was the theoretical max, with a real-world around 100mbps?



confinoj said:


> Right. Marty1781 was referring to PHY rates in reference to the speed indicator on the ecb3500t01 units. I was referring to actual data rate on my network. That's why I indicated I am surprised that I'm getting close to full data rates with an off or amber light should indicate a low PHY rate and hence not close to full data rate.


Yeah, I didn't realize that 1.1 could do a real-world 165mbps.


----------



## saeba

Bigg said:


> A post above says real-world 165mbps. I thought 175mbps was the theoretical max, with a real-world around 100mbps?
> 
> Yeah, I didn't realize that 1.1 could do a real-world 165mbps.


I guess it's a good thing I didn't know it couldn't!

My tests show 160 - 165 Mbps as measured by hooking a laptop with gigabit ethernet to one Actiontec ECB35000T01 going via coax to a second Actiontec ECB3500T01 to a desktop PC with gigabit ethernet. The desktop PC is running a recent version of the Speedtest.net Mini Bandwidth Speed Test.

Copying a file using TiVo Desktop from the Roamio Pro -> coax -> Actiontec ECB3500T01 -> desktop PC resulted in 105 Mbps transfer. As I'd noted before, the Roamio doesn't seem as fast as the Actiontecs. Hooking the laptop up to the Roamio ethernet port and running the speedtest.net resulted in a similar reading - 105 Mbps. So the speedtest.net seems a reliable measure.


----------



## confinoj

Bigg said:


> A post above says real-world 165mbps. I thought 175mbps was the theoretical max, with a real-world around 100mbps?
> 
> Yeah, I didn't realize that 1.1 could do a real-world 165mbps.


Just depends on the adapters ethernet speed. Most seem to be bottlenecked by 100mb/s ethernet but actiontec also makes an adapter with 4 gige ports, thus removing the ethernet bottleneck and allowing full moca 1.1 speed. I'm assuming devices that have moca built in such as tivo see full moca speeds as well since link is directly through coax.


----------



## saeba

confinoj said:


> I'm assuming devices that have moca built in such as tivo see full moca speeds as well since link is directly through coax.


My testing of the Roamio Pro doesn't support that theory. When transferring from the Roamio Pro -> coax -> Actiontec -> PC I see 105Mbps transfers (transferred 5gb HD video file) . That's nowhere near the 165 Mbps I see between my desktop and laptop hooked to Actiontecs.

In my tests, transfers from the Roamio using ethernet or MoCA were of similar speeds - 105Mbps.


----------



## confinoj

saeba said:


> My testing of the Roamio Pro doesn't support that theory. When transferring from the Roamio Pro -> coax -> Actiontec -> PC I see 105Mbps transfers (transferred 5gb HD video file) . That's nowhere near the 165 Mbps I see between my desktop and laptop hooked to Actiontecs.
> 
> In my tests, transfers from the Roamio using ethernet or MoCA were of similar speeds - 105Mbps.


Interesting. Wonder why that is.


----------



## aaronwt

saeba said:


> My testing of the Roamio Pro doesn't support that theory. When transferring from the Roamio Pro -> coax -> Actiontec -> PC I see 105Mbps transfers (transferred 5gb HD video file) . That's nowhere near the 165 Mbps I see between my desktop and laptop hooked to Actiontecs.
> 
> In my tests, transfers from the Roamio using ethernet or MoCA were of similar speeds - 105Mbps.


I get over 170Mb/s transfer rates from my Roamio Pro using the GigE port as reported on the transfer history page on the Tivo. I'll typically hit 175Mb/s speeds as reported from KMTTG.


----------



## saeba

aaronwt said:


> I get over 170Mb/s transfer rates from my Roamio Pro using the GigE port as reported on the transfer history page on the Tivo. I'll typically hit 175Mb/s speeds as reported from KMTTG.


I did not see that in the testing I did. Is the Roamio hooking into an Actiontec unit or into your gigabit backbone? Maybe it's the Actiontec limiting my Roamio.... though when I hooked my laptop up to this same Actiontec, I did see higher speeds (165Mbps).


----------



## aaronwt

saeba said:


> I did not see that in the testing I did. Is the Roamio hooking into an Actiontec unit or into your gigabit backbone? Maybe it's the Actiontec limiting my Roamio.... though when I hooked my laptop up to this same Actiontec, I did see higher speeds (165Mbps).


I do not use the GigE switch on the Actiontec to connect my other devices. It is lacking in speed. In my tests the GigE ports maxed out around 600Mb/s when I tested PC to PC(somewhere around those speeds. i don't remember exactly but it was much slower than my Dlinks). My Dlink GigE Switches can hit up to 950Mb/s throughput when I transfer PC to PC. So the only thing connected to my Actiontec is my four minnis over MoCA, and then i use one GigE port that connects to a Dlink GigE switch. And that switch is what my data goes through to get to my other TiVos and PC running KMTTG. So I only use my Actiontec to feed data to my four Minis using MoCA.


----------



## saeba

Just retried the transfer tests.

Roamio -> MoCA -> Actiontec -> PC
using KMTTG : 96.27 Mbps [5gb file]

Roamio -> Actiontec Ethernet -> MoCA -> Actiontec -> PC
using KMTTG : 106.77 Mbps [same 5gb file]

Again, my testing using my laptop:
Laptop -> Actiontec Ethernet -> MoCA -> Actiontec -> PC
using speedtest.net mini test : 166 Mbps

So not sure what's going on with the Roamio.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The Roamio's moca may be bandwidth bottlenecked. Either technically or intentionally for the sake of stability. (Even its ethernet path has a bandwidth limit of 160ish on the Plus/Pro, an improvement over S3 and Premieres).

A single one-way transfer won't max out a moca network, but multiple transfers could. If someone were to transfer multiple things to/from the Tivo at once over moca, the combined throughput would probably show something closer to the moca cap.


----------



## lessd

aaronwt said:


> I get over 170Mb/s transfer rates from my Roamio Pro using the GigE port as reported on the transfer history page on the Tivo. I'll typically hit 175Mb/s speeds as reported from KMTTG.


The best transfer speed I have gotten from a Roamio to a Roamio (using MoCa) is 95mb/s and I have a GieE system. You must have a great network to get up to 170Mb/s on your xfers. My MoCa reports about 260 on all TiVo units.


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## aaronwt

The bandwidth limit is at least in the 170's for the GigE port. This was a transfer from my Roamio Pro to a PC running KMTTG.


----------



## Bigg

confinoj said:


> Just depends on the adapters ethernet speed. Most seem to be bottlenecked by 100mb/s ethernet but actiontec also makes an adapter with 4 gige ports, thus removing the ethernet bottleneck and allowing full moca 1.1 speed. I'm assuming devices that have moca built in such as tivo see full moca speeds as well since link is directly through coax.


Interesting. It could be that back when I read the reviews and got the <100mbps stuck in my head they didn't have gig adapters to remove that bottleneck... MoCA is pretty darn impressive considering how widespread coax cabling is compared to CAT-6.


----------



## Templar69

I have a Roamio Basic hard wired to my AT&T 20 Mbps modem and want to set up a MoCA network on the existing RG-6 cables. I know I will need an adapter at each demarcation point. My question is: will I further need two additional adapters - one for the modem and one for the main Roamio, or just one more with the Roamio and modem combined together? I've read varying thoughts on this so any advice would be helpful.


----------



## Bigg

Templar69 said:


> I have a Roamio Basic hard wired to my AT&T 20 Mbps modem and want to set up a MoCA network on the existing RG-6 cables. I know I will need an adapter at each demarcation point. My question is: will I further need two additional adapters - one for the modem and one for the main Roamio, or just one more with the Roamio and modem combined together? I've read varying thoughts on this so any advice would be helpful.


1. They are not "demarcation points". There is one "demarcation point", which is where your cable provider hands off the coax from their RG-6 or RG-11 to your RG-6. There's also one for AT&T at the NID, but that's irrelevant.

2. Since your Roamio is already hardwired to the U-Verse gateway, keep it that way, and add an adapter connected to the U-Verse gateway, and not to the TiVo. That way, you'd bridge the Ethernet network to MoCA without having multiple adapters, which would be silly since you already have a hardwired link between the TiVo and the U-Verse RG. Sure, in theory, you could have two MoCA adapters, but that'd be a waste since you have the ability to run Ethernet. The only reason you'd want two MoCA adapters is if the TiVo and U-Verse RG were in different rooms and there was no way to run Ethernet between them.

3. You only need one MoCA adapter, after that, when you add Minis, they already have MoCA built in. If you wanted an S3 or 2-tuner Premiere, they would need a MoCA adapter, but Minis don't. So you'll likely only need one MoCA adapter.


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## Templar69

Thank you for your informative and very clear answer.

Sorry, I'm not yet up with the "language". I am somewhat familiar with the term, but clearly misused it.


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## nooneuknow

Just in case it isn't clear, Templar69's question was regarding a base Roamio, which itself has no MoCA, unlike the Plus/Pro, that have it built-in (and Minis can't actually be used as bridges, or to create a MoCA network, but are only able to be used on one).

I'm not sure enough of the original question, to know if that part may have been left out of Bigg's answer (by possibly missing the base model part).

It seems like it could be irellevant. But, I just wanted to make sure, since some use ethernet to the TiVo, then use the TiVo to create a MoCA bridge, when they have one with MoCA, or some still just prefer to still not do that, due to it slowing things down, when compared to throughput of standalone adapters.


----------



## saeba

aaronwt said:


> The bandwidth limit is at least in the 170's for the GigE port. This was a transfer from my Roamio Pro to a PC running KMTTG.


OK. Made some changes in my network including changing out my router and I'm now seeing 149 Mbps transfers via Roamio Pro -> ethernet -> Actiontec ECB3500T01 -> MoCA -> ECB3500T01 -> ethernet -> PC.

I can only get 95 Mbps transfers when I hook the Roamio Pro up to MoCA only.


----------



## Bigg

Templar69 said:


> Thank you for your informative and very clear answer.
> 
> Sorry, I'm not yet up with the "language". I am somewhat familiar with the term, but clearly misused it.


Yeah, "demarc" is an old telco term, it probably came from the deregulation days when the telcos had to let you own your own wiring and equipment inside the house, so you had to demarcate the two systems from each other with a handoff (now a NID). Cable is less formal, it's usually just a ground block, but it determines who's responsible for fixing it when it breaks.



nooneuknow said:


> Just in case it isn't clear, Templar69's question was regarding a base Roamio, which itself has no MoCA, unlike the Plus/Pro, that have it built-in (and Minis can't actually be used as bridges, or to create a MoCA network, but are only able to be used on one).
> 
> I'm not sure enough of the original question, to know if that part may have been left out of Bigg's answer (by possibly missing the base model part).


Templar69 stated s/he has a Roamio Basic, which does't have MoCA, hence my answer for that model.



> It seems like it could be irellevant. But, I just wanted to make sure, since some use ethernet to the TiVo, then use the TiVo to create a MoCA bridge, when they have one with MoCA, or some still just prefer to still not do that, due to it slowing things down, when compared to throughput of standalone adapters.


I use my XL4 as a bridge, since it has built-in MoCA like all 4-tuner Premieres and 6-tuner Roamios, which are also all cable-only. It might not be the best way, but it's good enough for government work, so to speak.


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## saeba

saeba said:


> OK. Made some changes in my network including changing out my router and I'm now seeing 149 Mbps transfers via Roamio Pro -> ethernet -> Actiontec ECB3500T01 -> MoCA -> ECB3500T01 -> ethernet -> PC.


Still challenged by aaronwt's 174.89 Mbps transfer rate.... upgraded my cabling to cat6 and raised the rate to 168.9 Mbps. So pretty much swapped out all of my old network to get to a much faster and consistent status.


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## Philosofy

I'm getting ready to get a Roamio and Mini. My cable configuration seems a little weird.

Most of my equipment is in my storage room downstairs. The Mini will be located upstairs in the kitchen area.

Here is the wiring configuration: Comcast Coax comes in, and goes to a 4 way splitter (PCT-NGNII-4S Genesys II 4 Way Splitter, 5-1000MHz -130dB RFI, each output labeled -7.5dB). From the splitter, one coax goes to my modem/router. The second one goes to my main TiVo, the third goes to a coax routed through the attic to the kitchen where the Mini would be installed. The fourth has me confused: it goes to an amplifier: (SV-A15PRS-m CommScope Digital Subscriber Amplifier Gain 15dB. 53-1000MHz. Passive Reverse Path 5-42MHz 6KV Surge Protected.) Besides the input from the splitter, there are two cables on the amp: one coax goes to an adaptor plugged into a power strip (that input is labeled DC input). The other goes into the wall somewhere. 

In addition to having a coax go to where I want the Mini, I also have an ethernet cable from my router going there as well. In the kitchen I have an MCell cell phone tower from AT&T. The MCell has an ethernet input and output.

So, what would my best Roamio/Mini configuration be? Can I just use the ethernet coming out of the MCell? (The Roamio would be hard wired into the same network.) Should I use the Coax? Eventually I'd like to add other Minis, so can the Roamio service one Mini via ethernet, and others via MOCA?

Thanks

Phil


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## Marty1781

Philosofy said:


> I'm getting ready to get a Roamio and Mini. My cable configuration seems a little weird.
> 
> Most of my equipment is in my storage room downstairs. The Mini will be located upstairs in the kitchen area.
> 
> Here is the wiring configuration: Comcast Coax comes in, and goes to a 4 way splitter (PCT-NGNII-4S Genesys II 4 Way Splitter, 5-1000MHz -130dB RFI, each output labeled -7.5dB). From the splitter, one coax goes to my modem/router. The second one goes to my main TiVo, the third goes to a coax routed through the attic to the kitchen where the Mini would be installed. The fourth has me confused: it goes to an amplifier: (SV-A15PRS-m CommScope Digital Subscriber Amplifier Gain 15dB. 53-1000MHz. Passive Reverse Path 5-42MHz 6KV Surge Protected.) Besides the input from the splitter, there are two cables on the amp: one coax goes to an adaptor plugged into a power strip (that input is labeled DC input). The other goes into the wall somewhere.
> 
> In addition to having a coax go to where I want the Mini, I also have an ethernet cable from my router going there as well. In the kitchen I have an MCell cell phone tower from AT&T. The MCell has an ethernet input and output.
> 
> So, what would my best Roamio/Mini configuration be? Can I just use the ethernet coming out of the MCell? (The Roamio would be hard wired into the same network.) Should I use the Coax? Eventually I'd like to add other Minis, so can the Roamio service one Mini via ethernet, and others via MOCA?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Phil


In order to connect the Mini via coax, you will obviously need a Moca network. You can use the Roamio Plus/Pro to create one (which will require an ethernet connection near the Roamio) or purchase a separate Moca bridge from Tivo.com. One advantage to using Moca is that it will keep the Mini's streaming traffic off your primary/home network. If you have multiple Minis connected over ethernet all streaming simultaneously, this could somewhat slow down your home network (maybe). Otherwise, if it's just one or two ethernet Minis, I doubt it will make much, if any difference on your home network.

However, the ethernet route may be the simplest method in this case since you already have that wired. I wouldn't connect the Mini through the Mcell device, however. In theory, it should work but it just adds another point of failure and who knows what, if anything, it will do to the data packets and/or bandwidth going to the Mini. Instead, I would just purchase a simple $10 - $20 ethernet switch from Amazon, connect your existing kitchen ethernet to that, and have the Mcell device and Mini each connect separately to the switch.

And yes, you can have multiple Minis in your home each connected through different methods. One can be on coax, another on ethernet, etc. No issues with that.


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## nooneuknow

Any amps, that don't specify they have a MoCA pass-band, like how many can state they have a passive return, needs to be placed upstream as far as possible, preferably at the physical point-of-entry (or demarcation point).

Amps with such bypasses are rare, and expensive. If you can't place the amp upstream of every path MoCA needs to traverse, things can get pretty complicated. It doesn't need to be at the demarc, as long as it's still upstream of where MoCA needs to traverse.

An amp without the MoCA pass-band will block the MoCA (at worst), and wreak havoc with harmonic interference (at best).

The best amps for most standard/simple MoCA installs are those with a single in, and single out, at the demarc, with the PoE filter placed on the OUT port, and splitting done from there. Most amps with multiple ports out just have an internal splitter after a single amp, anyway, and no MoCA PoE filter inside, to keep MoCA out of the amplifier circuitry.


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## Philosofy

Thanks everyone. I'm sure I'll have more questions when I do the installation.


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## igirl

So I bought a Mini for a Christmas gift but want to make sure I have the right stuff to set it up and I'm just not sure if I need a Moca adapter or not? There is no hard wired ethernet in this house - we only use WLAN. The modem, router, tuning adapter and our P4 (Premiere 4) are all located in one spot. The Mini will go in another room that has nothing but a cable outlet.

Cable signal has always been really spotty in this (bright) house due to the cable company refusing to update the cable drops because it's "too hard". They are the ISP provider too. Tuning adapters frequently lose their minds here and have to be reset.

Based on the Tivo website instructions I altered it to look like our setup - they never mention tuning adapters. Our tuning adapter is a Cisco STA1520. Question is - will this work without buying the Moca or not?

If I have to do Moca - do I need 2 or just one?
What about doing the Actiontec type alternative? Is it hard to configure? Plug & Play would be best.
And along side this - can I use this stuff to get Ethernet via cable for a wired office connection (currently running only on WLAN)?


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## Random User 7

What kind of TiVo is your main box? I'm assuming Premiere 4 but just to make sure.


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## BigJimOutlaw

igirl said:


> So I bought a Mini for a Christmas gift but want to make sure I have the right stuff to set it up and I'm just not sure if I need a Moca adapter or not? There is no hard wired ethernet in this house - we only use WLAN. The modem, router, tuning adapter and our P4 (Premiere 4) are all located in one spot. The Mini will go in another room that has nothing but a cable outlet.
> 
> Cable signal has always been really spotty in this (bright) house due to the cable company refusing to update the cable drops because it's "too hard". They are the ISP provider too. Tuning adapters frequently lose their minds here and have to be reset.
> 
> Based on the Tivo website instructions I altered it to look like our setup - they never mention tuning adapters. Our tuning adapter is a Cisco STA1520. Question is - will this work without buying the Moca or not?
> 
> If I have to do Moca - do I need 2 or just one?
> What about doing the Actiontec type alternative? Is it hard to configure? Plug & Play would be best.
> And along side this - can I use this stuff to get Ethernet via cable for a wired office connection (currently running only on WLAN)?


If you can connect the Premiere 4 to the router by ethernet, you won't need any moca adapters. Go into network settings and select "Use this DVR to create a moca network".

When setting up the Mini, select moca as its network connection.

The part that's important for you is how to deal with the tuning adapter.

- The cable line going to the Tivo/TA should be split.
- One line going to the Tivo, the other line going to the TA. (Don't use the RF-out on the TA.)
- Attach a POE filter ($8 on ebay) on the line going to the TA.

In the off-chance the moca network screws with your internet connection, another POE filter could be added to the cable modem's line.


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## nooneuknow

BigJimOutlaw said:


> If you can connect the Premiere 4 to the router by ethernet, you won't need any moca adapters. Go into network settings and select "Use this DVR to create a moca network".
> 
> When setting up the Mini, select moca as its network connection.
> 
> The part that's important for you is how to deal with the tuning adapter.
> 
> - The cable line going to the Tivo/TA should be split.
> - One line going to the Tivo, the other line going to the TA. (Don't use the RF-out on the TA.)
> - Attach a POE filter ($8 on ebay) on the line going to the TA.
> 
> In the off-chance the moca network screws with your internet connection, another POE filter could be added to the cable modem's line.


Very good concise explanation. :up:

Just for those joining in late, I'll add that the reason the split for the TA is required, is due to all those having an out port having an internal amplifier. I described why amps can be a problem in my last post here. There are no TAs that exist, with the capability to let MoCA bypass the amp internally, thus requiring it be done externally, and use of the added PoE filter is to prevent TA malfunctions, as well as to stop harmonic interference from messing with the CATV signals.


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## Bigg

The MCell can be between the modem and the router for QoS, or behind the router with nothing else plugged into it. It does NOT act like a normal switch, so DO NOT plug something else into it if it is installed in your LAN.


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## igirl

Random User 7 said:


> What kind of TiVo is your main box? I'm assuming Premiere 4 but just to make sure.


Thanks, yes a P4.



> The modem, router, tuning adapter and our P4 (Premiere 4) are all located in one spot. The Mini will go in another room that has nothing but a cable outlet.


----------



## igirl

Thanks for the detailed reply -



BigJimOutlaw said:


> If you can connect the Premiere 4 to the router by ethernet, you won't need any moca adapters.


That's good - I'm set up currently as the diagram shows - Ethernet direct from Tivo P4 to the router.



> The part that's important for you is how to deal with the tuning adapter.
> 
> - The cable line going to the Tivo/TA should be split.
> - One line going to the Tivo, the other line going to the TA. (Don't use the RF-out on the TA.)
> - Attach a POE filter ($8 on ebay) on the line going to the TA.


There is only one cable line input on the Tivo - if I split the line out of the wall and feed one into the TA and one direct into the Tivo - the Tivo will not be receiving any output from the TA. This is confusing to me especially since now, there is nothing coming out of the TA??? It's essentially bypassed. I'm not getting something here.



> In the off-chance the moca network screws with your internet connection, another POE filter could be added to the cable modem's line.


I quick searched "moca filter" and found a few that are $4 ea. Without any specs I assume they are all going to be more or less equal?


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## igirl

nooneuknow said:


> Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo.


Thanks - We have a Cisco. So you are saying - 
Cable coax IN to the TA
Cable coax OUT to a splitter where Side A has an extra filter and feeds (something, not sure) - and Side B feeds the Tivo.

I'll try to do another diagram once I understand what's being said.


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## BigJimOutlaw

igirl said:


> There is only one cable line input on the Tivo - if I split the line out of the wall and feed one into the TA and one direct into the Tivo - the Tivo will not be receiving any output from the TA. This is confusing to me especially since now, there is nothing coming out of the TA??? It's essentially bypassed. I'm not getting something here.
> 
> I quick searched "moca filter" and found a few that are $4 ea. Without any specs I assume they are all going to be more or less equal?


There should be a USB cable connecting the TA to the Tivo. That's how they communicate. It doesn't happen over the coax.

Yes, "moca filter" pretty much pulls up the same results.


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## igirl

BigJimOutlaw said:


> There should be a USB cable connecting the TA to the Tivo. That's how they communicate. It doesn't happen over the coax.
> 
> Yes, "moca filter" pretty much pulls up the same results.


Thanks so much for following up - I think I have it now? Heres the updated diagram... (optional POE filter to cable modem added _if internet signal gets messed up_)


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## BigJimOutlaw

Yep that looks good. :up:


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## nooneuknow

Was too busy with other things to send a response to member igirl, sorry.

But, it seems things are all in order now, and that the "splitter method" for connecting a TA has been properly explained as splitting before the TA, not after it, that the only "communication" link is the USB cable, and the TA out port is not in charge of anything, just there intended as a convenience, on those that have one (many would be better off if it wasn't even there).

Cox supplies Cisco TAs in my market, with the out port, but also provides a free "self install kit", with a diagram of the splitter method, plus all the components/cables to use that method, even the PoE filter, no questions asked. I doubt they'd add that expense, if they didn't know using the "inline method" would be problematic for enough customers. Too bad the other cable markets don't do the same...

For some reason I don't get to have the long signatures others do, no matter how small the font I use, or how I format it...


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## Bigg

nooneuknow said:


> For some reason I don't get to have the long signatures others do, no matter how small the font I use, or how I format it...


I think it's based on the number of total characters and total lines, not formatting.


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## Bigg

nooneuknow said:


> Yeah, but new lines not counting, unlike spaces do, still doesn't add up...


Spaces are characters, lines are not. That makes perfect sense.


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## Random User 7

To wrap this up with a nice bow on top: Your signature can not be longer than 200 characters excluding BB Code markup.


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## Pacomartin

Philosofy said:


> Here is the wiring configuration: Comcast Coax comes in, and goes to a 4 way splitter (PCT-NGNII-4S Genesys II 4 Way Splitter, 5-1000MHz -130dB RFI, each output labeled -7.5dB).
> 
> From the splitter,
> one coax goes to my modem/router.
> The second one goes to my main TiVo,
> the third goes to a coax routed through the attic to the kitchen where the Mini would be installed.
> The fourth has me confused: it goes to an amplifier: (SV-A15PRS-m CommScope Digital Subscriber Amplifier Gain 15dB. 53-1000MHz. Passive Reverse Path 5-42MHz 6KV Surge Protected.)


I put a MoCa filter on the point of entry and also on the line going to the modem. The second filter is not always done, but some modems are noisy so you remove the possibility of them messing up your MoCa network.


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## philt56

I have the following hooked up in my crawl space: Motorola Signal Booster 484095-001-00 Bi-Directional RF Amplifier (Discontinued by Manufacturer) ( Amazon description). I used to have a couple dvd recorders along with the TV all connected to a splitter inside the house to the same cable from the outside splitter in the comcast box and needed it to keep a decent signal. (Before Comcast required a box for all non premium channels)

Since now the only thing that will be connected to that cable will be a roamio pro and mini, hopefully the signal will be strong enough. The mini only needs the coax connection for Moca.

But if I can leave everything alone will the amp affect having a Moca network? The MOCA adapter will be connected to the cable modem in another room and it is on a different cable from the outside splitter. I don't have easy access to the router to do Ethernet direct to the roamio. 

The outside cable from comcast has their splitter with 4 lines going into various rooms. It's an older home that didn't have common coax throughout. 

One more thing, I need to connect the roamio and a mini to the same coax outlet in the wall which is what is connected to the amp. So will need to have a splitter there. Any issues? Basically the mini will be used as the second video input to support picture & picture viewing on my tv. 

Hope this all makes sense.

Thanks


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## dbpaddler

Okay. A little frustrated here, and I thought I had a grasp on it. Also checked out a bunch of different MOCA threads. Just when you think you're tech savvy, you get something like this that makes you feel stupid beyond belief. My Cisco Comcast modem had built in Moca and was working great until something happened (no clue what). After a lot of troubleshooting with Comcast I just can't get the white Moca light to go back on even if settings says Moca is on and working. It simply refuses to work. Had my Roamio basic connected to it via Ethernet and the Mini's worked great over coax until then. So I just bought the channel master Moca adapter.

The install is in this condo where the cable comes into the house via a closet and connected to a major switch/amp that connects it to all the outlets in the place. Has one line coming into a laundry closet where I have the Roamio Basic and Modem.

So the coax coming into the laundry closet is connected to a 1ghz Antronix splitter. One goes to the Roamio basic. The other goes to the Moca adapter and then out to the modem. I have Ethernet connected from the Roamio to the router and from the Moca adapter to the router. Was going off of this pic:








*Ethernet cable*
Connect an Ethernet cable from your MoCA 
Network Adapter to your router.
*Coax cable 1*
Disconnect the coax cable from your cable modem 
and reconnect it to the MoCA Network Adapter.
*Coax cable 2*
Connect a second coax cable from your 
MoCA Network Adapter to your cable modem
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And the moca adapter just doesn't connect. The link LED just blinks yellow indicating the Coax isn't linked. It would be a solid yellow or green if connected.

So now I'm just baffled and this customer is going to be annoyed soon to boot. Especially after I convinced them to go the Tivo route over Xfinity's setup.

Any advice? Am I connecting it wrong? I'm thinking the splitter is fine as it worked before with one going to the Tivo and the other to the router and Moca working via the Cisco router. Now I'm just adding the moca adapter between the splitter and the router which should do the trick.


----------



## Pacomartin

Which Roamio are you using? Keep in mind the following answer to the question.

Does this device need a MoCA Network Adapter?
*No:* Roamio Plus / Pro	
*Yes*:4-Tuner Roamio

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2412


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## dbpaddler

The Basic. I did mention that above. Hence I was using Moca through the Cisco router until it stopped working. After multiple resets, firmware reinstalls and such, the Comcast support tech and I were both stumped why it said it was on but the white light on the back wasn't on, and hence no moca. 

And as far as I know the moca adaoter hooked up properly. One issue the router is having is wireless sucks. I even have wireless adaptors on the two tv's that need moca. The Minis work a little bit for streaming but I just get a black screen when trying to view one of the Roamio's tuners. So I'm wondering if the Cisco Gateway is actually the problem since everything was working properly beforehand, moca, wireless and all.


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## aaronwt

There isn't a MoCA menu on the Cisco that you can look at through a web browser? That would help you figure out what is going on.


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## dbpaddler

aaronwt said:


> There isn't a MoCA menu on the Cisco that you can look at through a web browser? That would help you figure out what is going on.


Oh yeah. We toggled it on and off. We toggled it off, restarted the modem and to get it on. We did every on/off combination possible. It said it was on with 1 node connected. We assumed it considered itself as a node. They're not really trained to deal with moca for our purposes. But I'm not an idiot. I turned it on and had it up and running just fine until some event happened and it stopped working. I pretty much went through all the troubleshooting the tech did outside of the firmware reinstallation. There was a firmware update at some point, and I'm wondering if that broke Moca and screwed up wireless. Even though moca says it's working, it's not because the white light on the back isn't lit for MOCA.

Actually, that just made me think that maybe because moca is still turned on on the router, even if it's not working, is screwing with the moca adapter. I'm heading back down tonight so I'll give that a shot and see if it connects. If not, I'm swapping out the router for a new one. I can't think of anything else.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

philt56 said:


> I have the following hooked up in my crawl space: Motorola Signal Booster 484095-001-00 Bi-Directional RF Amplifier (Discontinued by Manufacturer) ( Amazon description). I used to have a couple dvd recorders along with the TV all connected to a splitter inside the house to the same cable from the outside splitter in the comcast box and needed it to keep a decent signal. (Before Comcast required a box for all non premium channels)
> 
> Since now the only thing that will be connected to that cable will be a roamio pro and mini, hopefully the signal will be strong enough. The mini only needs the coax connection for Moca.
> 
> But if I can leave everything alone will the amp affect having a Moca network? The MOCA adapter will be connected to the cable modem in another room and it is on a different cable from the outside splitter. I don't have easy access to the router to do Ethernet direct to the roamio.
> 
> The outside cable from comcast has their splitter with 4 lines going into various rooms. It's an older home that didn't have common coax throughout.
> 
> One more thing, I need to connect the roamio and a mini to the same coax outlet in the wall which is what is connected to the amp. So will need to have a splitter there. Any issues? Basically the mini will be used as the second video input to support picture & picture viewing on my tv.


Where is the amp in relation to everything else? Could you start from the outside comcast box and go from there, describing the coax layout? Or make a diagram.

But in general if the moca signal has to pass through the amp, it's always a risk. The best place for the amp is at the point of entry so everything is downstream from it. Worst case scenario, the amp gets moved if it's still needed at all.

For the second part, I guess it shouldn't be a problem if the TV can display two separate video inputs.


----------



## philt56

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Where is the amp in relation to everything else? Could you start from the outside comcast box and go from there, describing the coax layout? Or make a diagram.
> 
> But in general if the moca signal has to pass through the amp, it's always a risk. The best place for the amp is at the point of entry so everything is downstream from it. Worst case scenario, the amp gets moved if it's still needed at all.
> 
> For the second part, I guess it shouldn't be a problem if the TV can display two separate video inputs.


Thanks the outside comcast box splitter has one output going to the crawlspace. The amp is there and then connects to the coax which goes into the family room where the TV is. Another splitter output goes to the bedroom/office where the cable modem, router are and where the Moca adapter would be. No Ethernet able to go from router to the roamio so it can't provide the Moca network. Third splitter output goes to another bedroom with a third TiVo.

Sounds like if nothing works, I'll remove the amp. I will only have the roamio and mini on that one coax from the outside splitter.

Yes the Sony TV uses a different input for each window. Currently it has an hdmi input from the receiver which has both tivos, bluray etc. I run component cables and audio from one TiVo to the TV. P&P has to use a digital and analog for the 2 inputs. So one window is showing the receivers hdmi out which is selected to one TiVo and the other window shows the component input connected to the other TiVo. One nice thing is that if I make the component input window active (to hear audio) , ARC kicks in and the TV routes the audio to the receiver. Switch the active window to the hdmi and the receiver then has audio from its selected input. Before arc I had to mute the inactive window else I would have the TV speakers and audio system speakers both active.

Tried to draw a diagram on my new iPad and then attach to this post but no luck😃


----------



## nooneuknow

philt56 said:


> Thanks the outside comcast box splitter has one output going to the crawlspace. The amp is there and then connects to the coax which goes into the family room where the TV is. Another splitter output goes to the bedroom/office where the cable modem, router are and where the Moca adapter would be. No Ethernet able to go from router to the roamio so it can't provide the Moca network. Third splitter output goes to another bedroom with a third TiVo.
> 
> Sounds like if nothing works, I'll remove the amp. I will only have the roamio and mini on that one coax from the outside splitter.
> 
> Yes the Sony TV uses a different input for each window.<snip>
> 
> Tried to draw a diagram on my new iPad and then attach to this post but no luck


If you can relocate the amp to before any splits take place, so it's just the single inbound coax->amp->MoCA PoE filter->first splitter, you should be fine. This is if the amp has only one out port. If it has more than one, the make/model/description of the amp can help to better determine how to further proceed.

If the amp has more than one out port (many simply have an internal amp feeding an internal splitter, while some have dedicated ports for specific uses), more specifics are required.

Sometimes, amps lacking a RDC are used with a two-way splitter before them, with that unamplified splitter leg feeding anything that must communicate bidirectionally (cable modems, cableco leased STB/DVRs, telephony/VOIP boxes, and tuning adapters). With Comcast, there's no tuning adapters, which is good for your case. This method can still work, as long as you keep all MoCA devices either on the amplified side, or on the non-amplified side. But, there can't be some on each side (like a TiVo on the amplified side, and a Mini on the unamplified side), as the amp will block the MoCA from getting through.

If you put all the MoCA on the unamplified side of things, a filter then belongs on the in port of the amp, and another filter should go on the in port on the splitter before the amp. If you only have one on hand, use it for which place gives the best results, until you can get another (some installations require multiple filters, like in the instance of a cable modem that lacks a built-in MoCA filter, and doesn't have an internal MoCA bridge).

I've kind of jumped ahead, without having all of the amp info first. One thing you should be doing, is tracing out all the coax runs, making sure you know of all connections and splitters along the way, and that there are no forgotten amps along the way. There should be no unused coax runs connected, unterminated. You will want to cap off any unused coax runs/wallplate nipples/splitter ports with 75-ohm coax terminators. It is best to just disconnect them, and terminate upstream, if it's not hard for you to reconnect at a time you might need an unused run. Clean and tight connections are important. If you have wallplates with nipples, you should check behind them for hidden splitters, and consider replacing the nipples (one worn/dirty/stressed nipple can take down a whole MoCA network).

Ideally, all splitters should be the same brand and MHz/GHz rating. The rating being the same is the more important part. If you see external corrosion on any, assume they are corroded internally, and act accordingly. Tight connections (use small wrench) are important. No device or connection point should be able to be loosened by hand. If you find loose connections in places exposed to the weather or dampness, you should disconnect and inspect before proceeding to tighten them down.


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## dbpaddler

Well now I'm just annoyed. Replaced the splitter. Wifi has improved so my wireless ethernet adapters work on the mini for the most part. Unrelated or not, I won't complain. It didn't do a thing to fix moca on the Cisco or the separate moca adapter. Frustrated me and frustrated customer. Think my next step is to take the box to Comcast for a swap. That will be a pain since I'm not the customer even though I have all their info down to the last four of the Ss#. And I also found out Comcast never took the XFINITY boxes off their account too. That will be another battle because the tech didn't give me a receipt when he picked them up. I'm fighting my own battle for boxes I didn't have for over a year.


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## sheshechic

dbpaddler said:


> Well now I'm just annoyed. Replaced the splitter. Wifi has improved so my wireless ethernet adapters work on the mini for the most part. Unrelated or not, I won't complain. It didn't do a thing to fix moca on the Cisco or the separate moca adapter. Frustrated me and frustrated customer. Think my next step is to take the box to Comcast for a swap. That will be a pain since I'm not the customer even though I have all their info down to the last four of the Ss#. And I also found out Comcast never took the XFINITY boxes off their account too. That will be another battle because the tech didn't give me a receipt when he picked them up. I'm fighting my own battle for boxes I didn't have for over a year.


I don't have comcast but... my system is set like this:

coax: poe at main terminal in>5 way splitter > (room over garage) 3 way splitter - 1 to moca adapter & 1 to Tivo pro (not using as moca host couldn't get it to work with moca adapter need in LR), Moca adapter out > modem

Ethernet: modem>router> ethernet splitter> moca adapter You can simply take the splitter out of this route

The other adapter is in the living room with a coax in and ethernet out goes to a splitter.I have both a ethernet and coax going to the Mini. This is the only way I could make it work in my system And I tried Everything.

Your tivo in the laundry room should have coax and ethernet from the router connected since that model doesn't have a built in adapter.

If nothing works for you, including resetting your modem and turning off moca on it, then I think replacing the modem is the best thing you could do. Perhaps it is stuck with moca on which may be defective due to the update?


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## dbpaddler

The setup is pretty basic. Splitter from the line in. One to the Roamio and one to the router, or the alternate moca adapter then to the router. Ethernet from the Roamio to the router. Ethernet from the Moca adapter to the router. After whatever got it to stop working, wireless wasn't so hot either. Tried my Belkin wireless HDTV adapters on the Minis and it couldn't pull a strong enough signal to use a tuner, but it could watch Hulu from time to time. Replaced the splitter and the adapter works for pulling a tuner about 98% since there is the occasional stutter or pause. Ethernet works fine to the one Mini. 

I think the router is the problem and whatever happened two weeks ago just borked moca period. So I think switching it out is the only fix, I hope. 

I could get ethernet to one more of the Mini's, but it's ethernet jack from the wall goes to this main board in the closet where all the wall jacks are fed into, but that board doesn't have any association to the router. Common sense tells me it has to ports I can plug in an ethernet cable to it from the router. I have two cables run from the laundry to the closet. All my other ethernet connections are direct cables from the laundry room to the device. Never dealt with one of those punch boards that run ethernet throughout the house. So if someone has that knowledge, I could solve one of the Mini problems and then just get a Netgear AC wireless adapter and swap out the Belkin letting the one Mini go over wireless.


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## aaronwt

dbpaddler said:


> Well now I'm just annoyed. Replaced the splitter. Wifi has improved so my wireless ethernet adapters work on the mini for the most part. Unrelated or not, I won't complain. It didn't do a thing to fix moca on the Cisco or the separate moca adapter. Frustrated me and frustrated customer. Think my next step is to take the box to Comcast for a swap. That will be a pain since I'm not the customer even though I have all their info down to the last four of the Ss#. And I also found out Comcast never took the XFINITY boxes off their account too. That will be another battle because the tech didn't give me a receipt when he picked them up. I'm fighting my own battle for boxes I didn't have for over a year.


I learned a long time ago to never return any equipment to a provdier without getting a receipt first. It can help avoid a lot of headaches.


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## dbpaddler

Well I won't have to worry about comcast for myself any longer. Just went to FIOS. Can't wait to be done with them. Saved money monthly and got a $400 visa card. 

That aside, my moca issue just has me beside myself. New splitter, nothing. New router, nothing. changed up the wiring, nothing. I don't know how moca works perfectly for three weeks and then nothing. Not to mention Internet support said the comcast service center had XB3's on hand and it turns out they don't. So that was a waste. Swapped it anyway to see if the router made a difference with the Moca adapter. Nope. The adapter still won't connect. Just blinks yellow. Tried the adapter inline from the splitter to the modem. Tried it inline from the splitter to the Roamio Basic. Connected via ethernet to the router both times. Nada. I just give up. I'm tempted to just get the Plus and sell the basic and call it a day. Or try a better wireless range extender. I have a cheap Belkin HDTV Adapter and that does work with dropouts because I currently have the Sonos setup through the wireless. I wonder if I get a better adapter and have the Sonos setup through the Sonos mesh network if that would do it. Or try a powerline adapter. Amazon can get them to me quick. 

I could get the one Mini hooked up via ethernet, but my tech skills stop at the big ethernet board that connects all the outlets in the condo. It has two female connections on it and one says security and the other says test. I have cat6 run from the closet it's in to where the router is, but I don't know what would plug in where. I've done AV installs for years. Set up three places via moca. This is just driving me crazy.

And the kicker....Service center lady says all of their routers carry internet over the coax. So that took some explaining. Then she says her super smart tech that walked in said the same and then says that the moca on the XB3 is strictly for their X1 setup. I'm like, sorry pal, but many others have it working with their tivo's and I had it working for three weeks. It's a standard. Unless you have some firmware setting that can limit what can access it, I don't see how you can say that. Can't wait to turn in my equipment, on Christmas Eve no less. Switched my mom away from them also. Their retentions department, now called "Customer Solutions" department was just apathetic about trying to help with a promo. She finally said I can create a ticket with your info and see what they say. I said, well you have till the 24th when Verizon comes to install. We'll see if the grass is greener. It sure as hell can't be worse.


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## aaronwt

Make sure you get an EThernet connection to your ONT instead of a MOCA connection. Having an EThernet connection to the ONT on FiOS is much more versatile than using MoCA.


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## dbpaddler

aaronwt said:


> Make sure you get an EThernet connection to your ONT instead of a MOCA connection. Having an EThernet connection to the ONT on FiOS is much more versatile than using MoCA.


Thanks. The FIOS is for me. My problem though is for a customer of mine who is stuck with Comcast.


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## mchief

Need help. Very simple setup, if anything is simple. Roamio Plus connected to Belkin AC dual band router. Cable coming into house 2 way split one for Plus and one for cable modem. Mini in MBR split with a TivoHD. Plus setup to create MoCa network. Mini using MoCa network. Problem is nothing works. V112 error. Changed splitters to 2000 MHz at both the Plus and Mini, worked for 30 minutes and quit, back to V112. Can not see why this does not work. The mini is able to connect to Tivo service


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## BigJimOutlaw

mchief said:


> Need help. Very simple setup, if anything is simple. Roamio Plus connected to Belkin AC dual band router. Cable coming into house 2 way split one for Plus and one for cable modem. Mini in MBR split with a TivoHD. Plus setup to create MoCa network. Mini using MoCa network. Problem is nothing works. V112 error. Changed splitters to 2000 MHz at both the Plus and Mini, worked for 30 minutes and quit, back to V112. Can not see why this does not work. The mini is able to connect to Tivo service


Could try a POE filter just for shoots and giggles. Send this to [email protected] with your Roamio/Mini TSNs. They can sometimes fix v112's from their end.


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## dbpaddler

ok....said screw moca. bought the TP Link Powerline kit and called it a day. Tired of Comcast and the issue and just needed it to work. That kit worked like a charm, and I'll get one more for the other tv now.


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## igirl

dbpaddler said:


> ok....said screw moca. bought the TP Link Powerline kit and called it a day. Tired of Comcast and the issue and just needed it to work. That kit worked like a charm, and I'll get one more for the other tv now.


Good to know that's an option. We had a hard enough time just getting our cable signal to be stable in this house, and it has all been voodoo - multiple visits from Brighthouse messing around in the attic with splitters, amps and such, but never once running a single new wire.

I'll try MoCa first, but I just bought one of these kits anyway after reading up on them. Amazon charged tax - so I bought it at NewEgg instead.


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## HarperVision

dbpaddler said:


> ok....said screw moca. bought the TP Link Powerline kit and called it a day. Tired of Comcast and the issue and just needed it to work. That kit worked like a charm, and I'll get one more for the other tv now.





igirl said:


> Good to know that's an option. We had a hard enough time just getting our cable signal to be stable in this house, and it has all been voodoo - multiple visits from Brighthouse messing around in the attic with splitters, amps and such, but never once running a single new wire. I'll try MoCa first, but I just bought one of these kits anyway after reading up on them. Amazon charged tax - so I bought it at NewEgg instead.


I just setup a Plus and three minis using moca at my parent's house and it all went off without a hitch. Not one hiccup. The key is to just make sure that you add the mini to your account first (if you didn't buy from TiVo), then do a connection to the TiVo service from your host TiVo, in my case the Plus, so it knows that you've added the mini to your account, then connect and do Guided Setup on your mini and select moca as the internet option. Worked like a charm on all three minis I setup for them.


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## igirl

HarperVision said:


> The key is to just make sure that you add the mini to your account first (if you didn't buy from TiVo), then do a connection to the TiVo service from your host TiVo, in my case the Plus, so it knows that you've added the mini to your account, then connect and do Guided Setup on your mini and select moca as the internet option. Worked like a charm on all three minis I setup for them.


Add the Mini first - in other words just hook it up right next to the host Tivo before trying MoCa in another location?

Then connect from host Tivo to Tivo service - this means just force it to connect manually (since it's already connected via ethernet)?

Hopefully our setup goes as smooth as all of yours!


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## HarperVision

igirl said:


> Add the Mini first - in other words just hook it up right next to the host Tivo before trying MoCa in another location? Then connect from host Tivo to Tivo service - this means just force it to connect manually (since it's already connected via ethernet)? Hopefully our setup goes as smooth as all of yours!


No, I mean go onto the TiVo website and activate the mini using its TSN, then do a manual "connect to TiVo service now" connection from the host TiVo to the TiVo service as you said. This way the host will know about the newly activated mini and will be ready for it once you connect it and do it's guided setup.

Merry Christmas!


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## TheOtherEric

OK Moca experts, does my attached sketch look like it will work? My goal was to (1) get the wireless up in a more central room, which moves it away from the Tivo thus requiring the Moca, and (2) to get a wired internet connection to my PC, instead of wireless, to improve speed (currently at 41 Mbps) and reliability.

I've read the entire thread, and I'm thinking this should work but I'd really appreciate any thoughts on it, like limitations due to this arrangement.

Happy New Year!


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## igirl

Oh well, MoCa was a total fail for me. Even set up on the wall directly behind/adjacent to the host Tivo/modem/router/TA setup (for preliminary testing) - no MoCa detected.

Since even getting cable to work at all in this house has been a bit like voodoo - I think I'll just give up on MoCa. Good thing I bought the power line ethernet kit.








[/QUOTE]


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## andy_hd

TheOtherEric said:


> OK Moca experts, does my attached sketch look like it will work? My goal was to (1) get the wireless up in a more central room, which moves it away from the Tivo thus requiring the Moca, and (2) to get a wired internet connection to my PC, instead of wireless, to improve speed (currently at 41 Mbps) and reliability.
> 
> I've read the entire thread, and I'm thinking this should work but I'd really appreciate any thoughts on it, like limitations due to this arrangement.
> 
> Happy New Year!


Going by your diagram it appears that you plan to use the 'TV/STB out' from the Actiontec MOCA adapter to connect your Cable Modem. This may not work (it didn't for me) as the Actiontec performs some filtering on this signal.

I'd suggest instead a 2:1 splitter prior to the Actiontec to connect both Actiontec and Cable Modem - leaving the TV/STB out from the Actiontec unconnected.

I should note that otherwise -- it looks good. I had this identical set-up with Comcast before switching to FIOS. Since the FIOS router has MOCA built in, the 2:1 splitter and Actiontec were removed (though the Actiontec near the PC remains).


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## BigJimOutlaw

TheOtherEric said:


> OK Moca experts, does my attached sketch look like it will work? My goal was to (1) get the wireless up in a more central room, which moves it away from the Tivo thus requiring the Moca, and (2) to get a wired internet connection to my PC, instead of wireless, to improve speed (currently at 41 Mbps) and reliability.
> 
> I've read the entire thread, and I'm thinking this should work but I'd really appreciate any thoughts on it, like limitations due to this arrangement.
> 
> Happy New Year!


From the moca standpoint it looks good. Not much experience with voip phones so I'm taking your word for it that it has an ethernet pass-through.


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## Marty1781

TheOtherEric said:


> OK Moca experts, does my attached sketch look like it will work? My goal was to (1) get the wireless up in a more central room, which moves it away from the Tivo thus requiring the Moca, and (2) to get a wired internet connection to my PC, instead of wireless, to improve speed (currently at 41 Mbps) and reliability.
> 
> I've read the entire thread, and I'm thinking this should work but I'd really appreciate any thoughts on it, like limitations due to this arrangement.
> 
> Happy New Year!


For Room #1, I would add a splitter so that the cable modem and Moca adapter each have their own separate coax feeds. The Moca adapter can sometimes filter out things that might cause you some issues with your internet. If you can, I would also put your voip device behind your router. I know most providers recommend putting it before the router but personally, I wouldn't want all my internet traffic passing through that one voip adapter as it adds another point of failure and who knows what other potential issues/bottlenecks. I put my voip device behind my router and it works fine.

Also, if you are good with networking and want to save a few bucks, you can purchase a used/refurbished Actiontec MI242WR Rev B+ router from Ebay for under $25. These can be easily reconfigured to act like a ECB2500C following the instructions posted here:
http://www.dslreports.com/faq/verizonfios/3.2_MOCA#15984

Reconfiguring the MI424WR as a dedicated Moca bridge also has the advantage of giving you 4 ethernet ports to connect additional devices (vs the one ethernet port on the ECB2500C). However, if you decide you want to go with the ECB2500C, Tivo.com oddly seems to have the best prices on these devices.

Also, reading what you are trying to accomplish, the other option is to simply move all the equipment from room #1 into room #3. Using this method, you won't need to purchase any Moca adapters (or maybe just one if you want to feed Moca to the Roamio). The Roamio can then connect wirelessly to your router. If room #2 doesn't get a good wireless signal with the router in room #3, you can also try adding a wireless signal extender to your network and place it near the Roamio if necessary.


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## Random User 7

If you go the MI424WR route I would look for a Rev F or newer. Early revisions had issues which you may not ever experience yourself but if you decide to sell or use it to do more than just MoCa you won't have the issues. I picked mine up for about $15 shipped each and it was simple to setup. Make sure they come with a power supply.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/36-ho...-actiontec-mi424wr-cheap-moca-bridge-all.html


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## igirl

Just a closing entry, after giving up on MoCa I installed the TP Link AV500 Powerline kit and it went perfectly. Plug & Play. 

I was surprised to see TiVo recommending using Moca as the first choice when it's seemingly far less simple to get running.

FWIW I now have two brand new MoCa filters for sale cheap in the Buy/Sell area.


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## saeba

igirl said:


> Just a closing entry, after giving up on MoCa I installed the TP Link AV500 Powerline kit and it went perfectly. Plug & Play.
> 
> I was surprised to see TiVo recommending using Moca as the first choice when it's seemingly far less simple to get running.


Whereas I had the reverse experience. Tried the powerline kit and could not get it to work at all in the locations I needed it. I was only able to get it to work poorly at best in my 15 year old home.

MoCA, on the other hand, worked perfectly first time with up to 175 Mbps speed.


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## dbpaddler

Yeah, I thought I was good to go with the TP Link, but apparently not. They're telling me HD has stutter. Hard to believe considering it's a newly wired condo. Have to give moca another try. Going to have Comcast switch out their gateway and bought an actiontec moca adapter t8bsee if the channelmaster one was the problem. Everyone is frustrated.


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## Bigg

Powerline is hit or miss. MoCA just works. MoCA is a MUCH better option for TiVo, even though it limits install locations of the Minis.


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## dbpaddler

If you read my posts, I had working moca that just stopped working. And the channelmaster adapter just wouldn't connect either. But I'm giving it another go. Having Comcast bring back their new gateway, have a couple new splitters and the actiontec adapter. Funny thing is, the money and time going back and forth since moca cropped out, I could have just gotten them the Roamio Plus and called it a day.


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## Bigg

dbpaddler said:


> If you read my posts, I had working moca that just stopped working. And the channelmaster adapter just wouldn't connect either. But I'm giving it another go. Having Comcast bring back their new gateway, have a couple new splitters and the actiontec adapter. Funny thing is, the money and time going back and forth since moca cropped out, I could have just gotten them the Roamio Plus and called it a day.


Sounds like crap splitters or coax in there somewhere. If the splitters and coax are OK, MoCA just works. Powerline, OTOH, can be very hit or miss, even on excellent wiring.


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## al3124

Hi, I'm pretty sure I'm an ignoramus when it comes to this stuff, but if anyone's willing to help I'd really appreciate it. 

I have comcast internet and cable. Behind the television in my family room I have two coax connections. One of those connections is directly hooked up to my modem. The other one is directly hooked up to my tivo premiere xl. An ethernet cable runs from the modem to a nearby airport extreme, and a second ethernet cable runs from the airport extreme to my tivo. 

In my bedroom I have two more coax connections. I have never used those connections before, but I just wall mounted a television above those connections. I also connected a tivo mini to one of those two coax connections, and connected the mini to the wall-mounted tv via HDMI. 

I told the tivo premiere in my family room to create a moca network. It said that it was and that Moca was enabled, but when I check "network status" it says "down." When I try to connect from the Tivo mini side of things, I get error C33, which apparently means there are network problems. 

I know I'm trying to make this easier than it is, but any thoughts on what I need to do to get moca up and running in my house?


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## Random User 7

Is the coax connected to the mini and the coax connected to the premiere connected somewhere?


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## dogbama

Hi All,

I posted a new thread, and then found this one, so I deleted and put this here.

I just jumped into TiVo world after seeing Comcast wanted to charge me $35 per outlet for additional "installations."

I bought a Roamio Plus from amazon and will plan to network a few minis with MoCA. I also ordered some MoCA adapters to set up the network. I know the Plus will act as a bridge, but I'd like to keep the modem router in the office where I have gigabit wired connections to router/NAS/desktop.

I'm renting a house, so I can't be sure about the wiring for MoCA, thought I'm willing to climb into the attic to replace a few splitters if necessary. Anyway, before I unpack and activate my Plus and Minis, I want to test to make sure I have MoCA connectivity. If we can't get minis set up in the bedrooms the wife will veto the TiVo purchase for sure. If I have to return to Amazon, I'd rather return an unactivated device, just to make life easier.

The question is as follows:

Can I use two MoCA network adapters to check connectivity? That is to say, if I put a MoCA adapter on two different coax outlets, can I use the "MoCA" light to verify that I will indeed have MoCA connectivity?

Thanks for your help, hopefully someone with more experience than me will be able to help.


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## al3124

Random User 7,

I guess I assumed the coax connections originated from the cable connection coming from outside, but I guess I'm not sure. I have used the connections in my family room for my tivo for the last few years, so I know they "work."

Do you know how I can confirm the origin of the coax connections?


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## HarperVision

dogbama said:


> Hi All, I posted a new thread, and then found this one, so I deleted and put this here. I just jumped into TiVo world after seeing Comcast wanted to charge me $35 per outlet for additional "installations." I bought a Roamio Plus from amazon and will plan to network a few minis with MoCA. I also ordered some MoCA adapters to set up the network. I know the Plus will act as a bridge, but I'd like to keep the modem router in the office where I have gigabit wired connections to router/NAS/desktop. I'm renting a house, so I can't be sure about the wiring for MoCA, thought I'm willing to climb into the attic to replace a few splitters if necessary. Anyway, before I unpack and activate my Plus and Minis, I want to test to make sure I have MoCA connectivity. If we can't get minis set up in the bedrooms the wife will veto the TiVo purchase for sure. If I have to return to Amazon, I'd rather return an unactivated device, just to make life easier. The question is as follows: Can I use two MoCA network adapters to check connectivity? That is to say, if I put a MoCA adapter on two different coax outlets, can I use the "MoCA" light to verify that I will indeed have MoCA connectivity? Thanks for your help, hopefully someone with more experience than me will be able to help.


That should work for testing purposes, but I would also hook up an Ethernet device in the bedroom to make absolutely sure you have connectivity.


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## Random User 7

al3124 said:


> Random User 7,
> 
> I guess I assumed the coax connections originated from the cable connection coming from outside, but I guess I'm not sure. I have used the connections in my family room for my tivo for the last few years, so I know they "work."
> 
> Do you know how I can confirm the origin of the coax connections?


Well testing to see if you have signal is the easiest but you did that so now it is on to tracing wire and see where it goes.


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## al3124

Okay, will do, but here's my question. There is just one coax connection on the back of the Tivo, and I've connected coax cable to that connection from the coax connection in the wall. Do I trace the wire from the wall connection that is plugged into the back of the Tivo and, once I find where that ends, connect it to the wire that eventually leads to the coax connection in the bedroom?


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## lessd

al3124 said:


> Okay, will do, but here's my question. There is just one coax connection on the back of the Tivo, and I've connected coax cable to that connection from the coax connection in the wall. Do I trace the wire from the wall connection that is plugged into the back of the Tivo and, once I find where that ends, connect it to the wire that eventually leads to the coax connection in the bedroom?


If wired correctly both coax should come to a point where the cable comes into the home, sometimes a splitter is put on the outside of the home and the output from the splitter goes to each room, you have to find out how your home is wired for us to answer any MoCA question and be accurate in our answer for your home.


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## 72driver

This may be an obvious question but I can't seem to find an answer.

I have a Roamio Pro that is connected to my router via Ethernet. I have the Roamio creating a Moca network on my house coax cables. I have 2 minis that are connected via Moca and are working fine. I have a third Mini that is also active on my account that I would like to put in a room that has Ethernet but no Coax connection. I hooked it up and chose Ethernet as the network type. Although it is showing connected to the home network (same router as the Moca creating Roamio is connected to) it can't seem to see the Roamio and therefore does not function. So....IF my Roamio is creating a Moca network, do ALL minis have to connect via Moca or should I be able to connect one via ethernet only?

Thanks!


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## BigJimOutlaw

72driver said:


> I have a Roamio Pro that is connected to my router via Ethernet. I have the Roamio creating a Moca network on my house coax cables. I have 2 minis that are connected via Moca and are working fine. I have a third Mini that is also active on my account that I would like to put in a room that has Ethernet but no Coax connection. I hooked it up and chose Ethernet as the network type. Although it is showing connected to the home network (same router as the Moca creating Roamio is connected to) it can't seem to see the Roamio and therefore does not function. So....IF my Roamio is creating a Moca network, do ALL minis have to connect via Moca or should I be able to connect one via ethernet only?


You can mix and match. Don't know if that's definitively the problem, but in general ethernet and moca work together fine. If this is a brand new Mini sometimes Tivo's servers are slow to update and it can take a few days before they all recognize each other, no matter how many forced connections or reboots you try.


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## dbpaddler

Wow. So my saga still continues. I have the Actiontec adapter connected directly to the incoming cable into the apartment, then connected the outgoing to the big 8 line amp. I still can't get the coax light to light up on the adapter. I'm just baffled. I don't know how something can work just fine for a few weeks via Moca built into the Cisco Gateway, and then nothing. I've tried setting it up from the cable that goes from the main amp to the closet where everything is, connecting the moca adapter before the splitter and after the splitter. I tried a different splitter even and nothing. That's when I went to the source and connected the main line direct to the moca adapter and the adapter to the main amp. And nothing. 

I'm just baffled. Is there some reason why this could happen? I tried the Channelmaster adapter and then the Actiontec. They took back the Cisco Gateway so now it's just the basic wireless N gateway. 

I tried a POE filter on the main line coming in before it hits the amp. That didn't help. Tried that with the moca adapter in the closet by the equipment, and I tried it between the main line and the moca adapter. This just doesn't make sense. 

Makes me wonder if Comcast came in with the X1 system, would they be able to get moca to work since their system relies on it.


----------



## Arcady

dbpaddler said:


> I have the Actiontec adapter connected directly to the incoming cable into the apartment, then connected the outgoing to the big 8 line amp.


This seems like exactly the wrong way to hook it up.

Incoming cable should go to the input of your amp. Ignore the output on the MoCA adapter. Connect the input of the adapter to one of the outputs on your amp (assuming the amp passes MoCA.) If the amp doesn't pass MoCA, then none of this will work no matter how you connect it.


----------



## dbpaddler

Arcady said:


> This seems like exactly the wrong way to hook it up.
> 
> Incoming cable should go to the input of your amp. Ignore the output on the MoCA adapter. Connect the input of the adapter to one of the outputs on your amp (assuming the amp passes MoCA.) If the amp doesn't pass MoCA, then none of this will work no matter how you connect it.












I'm just trying everything here since moca did work for a few weeks via the Cisco Gateway then stopped working.

You can see here I set it up as you suggested. It's the lighter silver connector at the amp going to the in on the adaptor. The ethernet runs from the adapter to the switch attached to the Gateway. Still no coax light.

So from the main line to the adapter to the amp. From the adapter to the amp. From a line from the amp to the tivo before the splitter (the other black coax from the amp).

None of those three methods get the coax green light on the adapter.

Is it possible something on the main line before it comes into the apartment is effecting it? Just seems odd that moca worked fine initially on the Cisco for a few weeks. Then it would say moca was connected via setup, but the moca light wouldn't go on on the back of the gateway. It even said one node was connected even when nothing was connected. Comcast support seemed to be baffled, and they would only help so much since they don't really care about moca for tivo. If it was causing x1 issues, that would be different.


----------



## Arcady

Is any of the Comcast equipment generating a MoCA signal?

What if you attach the coax that runs to the TiVo directly to the actiontec adapter just to see if it lights up, to rule out the adapter being bad?


----------



## HarperVision

dbpaddler said:


> I'm just trying everything here since moca did work for a few weeks via the Cisco Gateway then stopped working. You can see here I set it up as you suggested. It's the lighter silver connector at the amp going to the in on the adaptor. The ethernet runs from the adapter to the switch attached to the Gateway. Still no coax light. So from the main line to the adapter to the amp. From the adapter to the amp. From a line from the amp to the tivo before the splitter (the other black coax from the amp). None of those three methods get the coax green light on the adapter. Is it possible something on the main line before it comes into the apartment is effecting it? Just seems odd that moca worked fine initially on the Cisco for a few weeks. Then it would say moca was connected via setup, but the moca light wouldn't go on on the back of the gateway. It even said one node was connected even when nothing was connected. Comcast support seemed to be baffled, and they would only help so much since they don't really care about moca for tivo. If it was causing x1 issues, that would be different.


Order an X1 system, have them get it all hooked up and moca working, then take it all back and say you don't like it compared to your TiVo setup.


----------



## dbpaddler

Arcady said:


> Is any of the Comcast equipment generating a MoCA signal?
> 
> What if you attach the coax that runs to the TiVo directly to the actiontec adapter just to see if it lights up, to rule out the adapter being bad?


Nope. Since the jackwagons said the Columbus Ave Svc Center could replace it when that is false. They don't have the new Gateways, I got the older 2.4ghz only router which doesn't have moca. So the only thing with moca would be the Actiontec adapter. But the problem started when the Cisco Gateway was the only thing with Moca. And again, it worked great for about three weeks then nothing, hence the trip to the svc center.


----------



## dbpaddler

HarperVision said:


> Order an X1 system, have them get it all hooked up and moca working, then take it all back and say you don't like it compared to your TiVo setup.


That's how it all started. They put the X1 in. That's how you get the new Cisco Gateway with Moca. Had them take it out, and then everything worked fine with the Gateway acting as the moca adapter. Then I tried a wireless adapter to no avail. Then I tried the powerline adapter. And that works but I get stuttering about every 20 minutes. And this is in a newly wired condo.

I could be a d*ck and have them come in with X1 again and make sure you can watch DVR from the primary to the slave in the room that's the problem. Then swap out with the Tivo and take everything back to the service center.  Just way too many hours invested in this stupid install. Even worse, it's for my boss and his nagging gf. Thankfully the internet speeds suck, so I wonder if Comcast did something outside the apartment a month ago that screwed things up.


----------



## Random User 7

can you isolate the equipment in one room and set it up disconnected from every thing else and see if it works? Then start adding pieces back in. 

A test bench setup.


----------



## dbpaddler

What's to really test if I'm just trying to get the moca adapter up and running?


----------



## Random User 7

Ensuring the adapter works


----------



## dbpaddler

The adapter is technically a standalone device. Plug in ethernet, coax and power and you should have three green led's. The rest of the equipment should be irrelevant, no?

And I tried it before the app, at the amp, further down the line before the splitter and after the splitter. 

What else am I trying to isolate? Confused as to what I'm trying to test exactly.


----------



## Arcady

The coax light shouldn't light up unless it actually talks to another MoCA device. If you only have the one adapter connected, and the Mini (or another MoCA device) is not connected to coax and turned on, the light on the adapter will not come on.


----------



## dbpaddler

The Mini has been on. I switch it back to the Powerline when I'm not testing since that mostly works, and they need something going. I set up the actiontec, switch the mini back to coax and moca, sit for ten minutes as I enable moca and restart the mini. Not that I need to restart, but I feel like I'm starting with a clean slate.


----------



## TheOtherEric

andy_hd said:


> ...
> I'd suggest instead a 2:1 splitter prior to the Actiontec to connect both Actiontec and Cable Modem - leaving the TV/STB out from the Actiontec unconnected.
> ...





Marty1781 said:


> For Room #1, I would add a splitter so that the cable modem and Moca adapter each have their own separate coax feeds. The Moca adapter can sometimes filter out things that might cause you some issues with your internet. ...


Thanks for the suggestions! I installed the Moca per my diagram, but used a splitter as you both suggested, and it all worked immediately! Surprised it was so easy. However, I did also use a powerline adapter for the PC instead of Moca, and that was plug and play also.

This Moca thing is very very nice.


----------



## Bigg

dbpaddler said:


>


Holy ****! What is that monstrosity? A 12-way amp or something?


----------



## dbpaddler

Bigg said:


> Holy ****! What is that monstrosity? A 12-way amp or something?


You should see the patch panel for networking. And it's just a condo, albeit a 2.5mil one. So they have one to two outlets in every room. Main cable comes in to that amp and gets distributed to all the outlets and the one black cable goes to the laundry closet where all the gear is.

So I put the POE on the cable coming into the amp. I have to get Comcast to come out because they didn't even hook up the phone. So will give another go when they put the New Cisco Gateway with moca back in and see what happens. Figure if they're there, they can troubleshoot if there are issues.


----------



## WVZR1

Have you actually been into the "SETUP" of the Actiontec? It looks to me like yours is an ECB2500 so I believe I'd just start from scratch and work with Actiontec. I have never needed to do the proper setup of a Actiontec product but I believe in your particular case I'd start with Actiontec.

Here's a .pdf for the ECB2500. It of course says that an Actiontec device is configured theoretically "OOB" - maybe you shouldn't assume that.

http://support.actiontec.com/doc_files/ECB2500_Configuration_Guide_v1.1_NCS.pdf

Take your troubleshooting and problems to Actiontec and I'd think you'll sort it out more quickly than just struggling. I don't believe your solution is going to be with Comcast.

My Comcast DPC3939 is set up on D1 (1150MHz)

I'd document all of the Model ID's of the distribution boxes etc. then contact Actiontec.


----------



## Bigg

dbpaddler said:


> You should see the patch panel for networking. And it's just a condo, albeit a 2.5mil one. So they have one to two outlets in every room. Main cable comes in to that amp and gets distributed to all the outlets and the one black cable goes to the laundry closet where all the gear is.
> 
> So I put the POE on the cable coming into the amp. I have to get Comcast to come out because they didn't even hook up the phone. So will give another go when they put the New Cisco Gateway with moca back in and see what happens. Figure if they're there, they can troubleshoot if there are issues.


Wow. You have any pics of that? Are you installing for the owners of the condo? Why would you have two outlets live in one room? Do they have 12 boxes active on the coax? I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 6-way in use. A friend's parents' former house had like 8+ outlets, with 6 TVs and internet actually running, but they had a cascade of a 4-way and 3-ways or visa versa I think. The levels were too low, so they just stuck a 4-way Rat Shack amp at the top, and everything worked. That was in the pre-MoCA days, although MoCA does cross (not through, but from output port to output port) those crappy amps. They are pieces of crap, although I have seen them solve several signal level problems in large, exurban houses with long drops.


----------



## dbpaddler

Bigg said:


> Wow. You have any pics of that? Are you installing for the owners of the condo? Why would you have two outlets live in one room? Do they have 12 boxes active on the coax? I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 6-way in use. A friend's parents' former house had like 8+ outlets, with 6 TVs and internet actually running, but they had a cascade of a 4-way and 3-ways or visa versa I think. The levels were too low, so they just stuck a 4-way Rat Shack amp at the top, and everything worked. That was in the pre-MoCA days, although MoCA does cross (not through, but from output port to output port) those crappy amps. They are pieces of crap, although I have seen them solve several signal level problems in large, exurban houses with long drops.


I used to have the listing pics, but they took them down. It's my boss's place which makes the problems worse. Wifi stinks with the thick walls, tv's up where there aren't any outlets. It's about 2600sq ft and just wired everywhere, mostly. Idiots didn't think it through though. Master bedroom has two in walls flanking the TV. They don't work, and no third for a center channel. Two in wall rears wired to the laundry closet. Which kinda works if I had them connected to a Sonos Connect which was wired to playbar. But then why put two in wall speakers on the TV wall on top of two ceiling speakers. I'd just throw the ceilings closer to the rear and have them be rears or just skip them entirely. So many odd things.


----------



## aaronwt

dbpaddler said:


> I used to have the listing pics, but they took them down. It's my boss's place which makes the problems worse. Wifi stinks with the thick walls, tv's up where there aren't any outlets. It's about 2600sq ft and just wired everywhere, mostly. Idiots didn't think it through though. Master bedroom has two in walls flanking the TV. They don't work, and no third for a center channel. Two in wall rears wired to the laundry closet. Which kinda works if I had them connected to a Sonos Connect which was wired to playbar. But then why put two in wall speakers on the TV wall on top of two ceiling speakers. I'd just throw the ceilings closer to the rear and have them be rears or just skip them entirely. So many odd things.


If they have all that coax then wifi coverage should be easy. You should be able to use MoCA to multiple rooms and setup at least half a dozen Access Points. My condo is only 1350 sq.ft. and I need four APs to handle all my wireless devices.

With that much coax to each room you can setup a separate MoCA network for just WiFi.


----------



## dbpaddler

aaronwt said:


> If they have all that coax then wifi coverage should be easy. You should be able to use MoCA to multiple rooms and setup at least half a dozen Access Points. My condo is only 1350 sq.ft. and I need four APs to handle all my wireless devices.
> 
> With that much coax to each room you can setup a separate MoCA network for just WiFi.


Actually, the hall closet is fairly central to the whole place, so a decent AC router should blanket the place nicely. Right now the signal in the MBR from the kitchen laundry is crap. So an AC router in the closet and the gateway in the kitchen should suffice. And I couldn't put AP's /Extenders all over. That would be aesthetic death. Heck, if I could have cut out the quality around the tv's and had them recessed, he would have had me do it. He's Felix Unger cubed.


----------



## Bigg

dbpaddler said:


> I used to have the listing pics, but they took them down. It's my boss's place which makes the problems worse. Wifi stinks with the thick walls, tv's up where there aren't any outlets. It's about 2600sq ft and just wired everywhere, mostly. Idiots didn't think it through though. Master bedroom has two in walls flanking the TV. They don't work, and no third for a center channel. Two in wall rears wired to the laundry closet. Which kinda works if I had them connected to a Sonos Connect which was wired to playbar. But then why put two in wall speakers on the TV wall on top of two ceiling speakers. I'd just throw the ceilings closer to the rear and have them be rears or just skip them entirely. So many odd things.


Wow, that sounds... bizarre. Why are there so many coax lines connected though?


----------



## dbpaddler

Bigg said:


> Wow, that sounds... bizarre. Why are there so many coax lines connected though?


2 bedrooms, living room, den, kitchen accounts for 5. And then some of the rooms have a second outlet. I would imagine for layout options and not having to run a cable halfway around the room.


----------



## Swenny

And back to MOCA again. Wheeeeee

So here's my friend's setup:

He has an 8 port amp with an additional dedicated port for the modem (not sure if that port is passive nor do I know if the amp is MOCA compatible, trying to get that info. It's an Extreme Broadband IPA1008D-********) I'm guessing this is the issue

He has a Roamio Basic and 2 Minis. Roamio is connected by Ethernet to the router. Also has a Tuning Adapter. Connection is: Wall > Cable > 2 way splitter > 1 end to the TA > Other end to MOCA adapter and then the Roamio

My thoughts are as follows:

1. Anyone have a MOCA compatible 4, 6, or 8 port amp they have bought recently they can link to? Is a bypass filter the way to go? This would be the easiest I think but also the most costly

2. If I keep the existing amp, my thoughts would be to disconnect the 3 lines that would be on TiVo from the amp. Add a connection as follows:

Amp > Coax cable on on a random numbered port > PoE Filter > Coax cable > 3 way splitter > Connect the 3 lines

Would that work?

3. Any other options you guys can think of would be appreciated


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Swenny said:


> And back to MOCA again. Wheeeeee
> 
> So here's my friend's setup:
> 
> He has a Roamio Basic and 2 Minis. Roamio is connected by Ethernet to the router. Also has a Tuning Adapter. Connection is: Wall > Cable > 2 way splitter > 1 end to the TA > Other end to MOCA adapter and then the Roamio


Before going into amp troubleshooting, we gotta make sure the moca network is setup correctly.

1. You didn't mention, is there is a moca adapter connected to the router/modem to create the moca network? (pic below.)

2. If the Roamio is connected by ethernet to the router, it doesn't need a moca adapter. It's entirely optional, but if you want the Basic Roamio on the moca network as well, a second adapter is needed. But the ethernet connection to the router is fine. (If you do decide to do this, the Roamio's ethernet connects to the adapter, not the router.)

For the sake of some sanity it might also be a good idea to install a POE filter before the tuning adapter if there isn't one already. Moca and the TA can interfere with each other.


----------



## Swenny

Delete


----------



## Swenny

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Before going into amp troubleshooting, we gotta make sure the moca network is setup correctly.
> 
> 1. You didn't mention, is there is a moca adapter connected to the router/modem to create the moca network? (pic below.)
> 
> 2. If the Roamio is connected by ethernet to the router, it doesn't need a moca adapter. It's entirely optional, but if you want the Basic Roamio on the moca network as well, a second adapter is needed. But the ethernet connection to the router is fine. (If you do decide to do this, the Roamio's ethernet connects to the adapter, not the router.)
> 
> For the sake of some sanity it might also be a good idea to install a POE filter before the tuning adapter if there isn't one already. Moca and the TA can interfere with each other.


Thanks for the reply Jim

1. This was how I had it configured. Coax light never came on
2. Thanks for correcting me. I moved the MoCA adapter from where it was in your diagram above to the spot I described between the TA and the Roamio as part of troubleshooting. My TA is not the Cisco one so I don't know if that is the issue
EDIT: I re-read your reply for #2. You said "if you want the Basic Roamio on the moca network as well, a second adapter is needed". Is that accurate? I thought you only needed two if the Roamio wasn't connected to Ethernet?

I was reading in another thread that the coax light only comes on if the MoCA adapter detects a device and makes a connection to it. Perhaps I should try hooking one of the Minis up to the same line to see if I can get that to light up for starters. After that, suggestions are welcome


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Swenny said:


> EDIT: I re-read your reply for #2. You said "if you want the Basic Roamio on the moca network as well, a second adapter is needed". Is that accurate? I thought you only needed two if the Roamio wasn't connected to Ethernet?


Yeah, we're saying the same thing.  A second adapter is needed only if you want the basic connected by moca. If you prefer to keep it connected by ethernet, only 1 is needed.

Don't know if the amp is moca friendly or not, it quite possibly isn't, but a similar model number is: IPA2008DL2-RSVF. Apparently has a built in POE filter too.

Another option: http://www.pctstore.com/RF_amplifier_9_port_amplifier_PCT_VCF_18A_p/pctvcf18aupin.htm

You can definitely try taking the amp out of the equation as a test. I wouldn't do too much splitting downstream of the amp though. An 8-way split is already cutting signal strength kinda thin.


----------



## Swenny

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yeah, we're saying the same thing.  A second adapter is needed only if you want the basic connected by moca. If you prefer to keep it connected by ethernet, only 1 is needed.
> 
> Don't know if the amp is moca friendly or not, it quite possibly isn't, but a similar model number is: IPA2008DL2-RSVF. Apparently has a built in POE filter too.
> 
> Another option: http://www.pctstore.com/RF_amplifier_9_port_amplifier_PCT_VCF_18A_p/pctvcf18aupin.htm
> 
> You can definitely try taking the amp out of the equation as a test. I wouldn't do too much splitting downstream of the amp though. An 8-way split is already cutting signal strength kinda thin.


I saw both of those. Leaning towards the PCT 19A one since it's $5 cheaper than the PCT 18A and $20 cheaper that the Extreme Broadband one. I think I'll just go this route and save myself some time. Will report back


----------



## WVZR1

dbpaddler said:


> 2 bedrooms, living room, den, kitchen accounts for 5. And then some of the rooms have a second outlet. I would imagine for layout options and not having to run a cable halfway around the room.


I believe I'd use Comcast distribution, the Comcast filter/reflector and set it up NOT using the distribution box that you have now, just use the runs that you actually need to supply.

Comcast in I believe nearly all areas use a PPC EVO Entry. There are 5 port and 9 port configurations. Here Comcast uses EV01-5-U/UPS for a 5 port with the power supply in the same box. Grab the entry from the closet and use only the ports required with it to get the system functional. I got mine from a plant supervisor that was more than happy to let me do my own install.

Here's a link to the product. If you elect to BUY one be sure you purchase product with the BLUE fonts for Model # etc. That passes MoCA for sure. The maroon/brown is earlier product and I believe NOT desired but I've never tried it.

www.ppc-online.com/docs/MKTimages/upload/Specs-PPC-Entry-Series-2.pdf

Use terminators on all ports not used.



Swenny said:


> I saw both of those. Leaning towards the PCT 19A one since it's $5 cheaper than the PCT 18A and $20 cheaper that the Extreme Broadband one. I think I'll just go this route and save myself some time. Will report back


You don't mention the provider but I'd do similar to what I suggested to "dbpaddler" - see what your provider uses in the area and use the same. The one I linked to is functioning well for me but I'm using a Comcast DPC3939 modem that is also MoCA but it's not relative, it either passes MoCA or not. Hit up a service truck in the area or go to a maintenance facility and ask. The service stores I don't believe have any idea of what's used.

The PPC EV01 product is quite inexpensive on eBay.


----------



## Swenny

WVZR1 said:


> *snip*
> 
> You don't mention the provider but I'd do similar to what I suggested to "dbpaddler" - see what your provider uses in the area and use the same. The one I linked to is functioning well for me but I'm using a Comcast DPC3939 modem that is also MoCA but it's not relative, it either passes MoCA or not. Hit up a service truck in the area or go to a maintenance facility and ask. The service stores I don't believe have any idea of what's used.
> 
> The PPC EV01 product is quite inexpensive on eBay.


It's for Charter. I'm almost positive that none of the IPA1008 series amps will pass MoCA and the Charter tech they last had out (when I wasn't there)was less than helpful. The ones on eBay do not specifically say the have a MoCA bypass so I am skeptical on those


----------



## Bigg

dbpaddler said:


> 2 bedrooms, living room, den, kitchen accounts for 5. And then some of the rooms have a second outlet. I would imagine for layout options and not having to run a cable halfway around the room.


Right, but they shouldn't all be connected at once. They should only be connected when in use...



WVZR1 said:


> I believe I'd use Comcast distribution, the Comcast filter/reflector and set it up NOT using the distribution box that you have now, just use the runs that you actually need to supply.


Yeah, exactly.


----------



## Arcady

Yeah, you don't want to run amplified runs to a dead-end. Those outputs are just wasting signal and probably degrading signal on the active lines. Many amps come with attenuators to place on unused outputs. You should disconnect any unused runs and put on attenuators or use an amp with the correct number of outputs. Having a single open line is probably not a big deal. Having six of them is.


----------



## Bigg

Arcady said:


> Yeah, you don't want to run amplified runs to a dead-end. Those outputs are just wasting signal and probably degrading signal on the active lines. Many amps come with attenuators to place on unused outputs. You should disconnect any unused runs and put on attenuators or use an amp with the correct number of outputs. Having a single open line is probably not a big deal. Having six of them is.


You don't want open lines even without an amp, although it's probably worse with an amp, especially if you have amplification on the return path. Yeah, those littler terminators work great for keeping the system as simple and clean as possible.


----------



## DawnW

igirl said:


> Oh well, MoCa was a total fail for me. Even set up on the wall directly behind/adjacent to the host Tivo/modem/router/TA setup (for preliminary testing) - no MoCa detected.
> 
> Since even getting cable to work at all in this house has been a bit like voodoo - I think I'll just give up on MoCa. Good thing I bought the power line ethernet kit.


[/QUOTE]

Is this the diagram to use with a Roamio Basic connected directly to the router?

I am so confused.

I have just spent most of this afternoon trying to get everything working and I am more confused than ever.

I moved the Roamio in to where I can connect it directly to the router to see if that helps.

So far I can't get either Tivo Mini to connect right now. I am beyond frustrated.


----------



## h2oskierc

Is this the diagram to use with a Roamio Basic connected directly to the router?[/QUOTE]

What kind of Moca adapter are you using? The Basic Roamio doesn't bridge your wired network to MoCA. I'm no moca expert, but post as many details as you can, types of equipmet, how it is connected, every detail you can...


----------



## DawnW

h2oskierc said:


> Is this the diagram to use with a Roamio Basic connected directly to the router?


What kind of Moca adapter are you using? The Basic Roamio doesn't bridge your wired network to MoCA. I'm no moca expert, but post as many details as you can, types of equipmet, how it is connected, every detail you can...[/QUOTE]

I actually have one Tivo Mini working now, so I must have done something right.

I set it up at the router by connecting Modem-MoCA-Router.

Coax comes in to the MoCA. Another Coax goes out the MoCA and in to the modem. Modem is connected to the router by ethernet. MoCA is connected to the router by ethernet.

I also have the Roamio basic connected to the router by ethernet. No MoCA there as it is close enough to the router.


----------



## Pacomartin

DawnW said:


> I must have done something right.


It sounds correct, but your terminology is a little off, which may help you. The phrase " Multimedia over Coax Alliance (MoCA)" refers to a network, or more specifically the extension of your current ethernet which transmits over WiFi and Cat 5e cables to include transmission over coaxial cables.

A *MoCA Ethernet To Coax Adapter* refers to the physical device that bridges the signal from Cat 5e cable to coaxial. In some cases it is a separate device (usually made by Actiontec for about $80), and in the cases of a Roamio Plus or Pro or Premier 4 it can be built into the TiVo. The adapter is *not built into the lowest priced Roamio* so that it is less expensive.

You can use your adapter to bridge the two types of cable (CAT5e & COAX) as indicated in the image below. 
https://www.tivo.com/my-account/how-to/how-connect-your-tivo-box-your-home-network

As you may have additional CAT5e cables running from your router, you may not want this mess next to your TiVo. If you don't mind, you can place the router and modem near the TiVo DVR (one of the models with a built in adapter) and eliminate the Actiontec adapter.


----------



## Swenny

Swenny said:


> I saw both of those. Leaning towards the PCT 19A one since it's $5 cheaper than the PCT 18A and $20 cheaper that the Extreme Broadband one. I think I'll just go this route and save myself some time. Will report back


Bought the new amp. Still cannot get the coax light to light up on either MoCA box when connected as shown. I'm wondering if one of the Actiontec boxes is defective because the Ethernet light never comes on. Makes me think they both are. Next steps would be appreciated


----------



## rob4crib

BigJimOutlaw said:


> With the release of the Tivo Mini and Roamio boxes, a lot of people are considering using a MoCA connection rather than ethernet or wireless to communicate between Tivo devices.
> 
> Because a lot of people are new to MoCA, hopefully this quick and dirty setup information will help answer most of your questions. This isn't a complete A-to-Z MoCA FAQ; it just answers the most common setup questions that have come up on this forum.
> 
> This guide answers:
> 
> - What is MoCA?
> - Why use MoCA?
> - How to create a MoCA Network
> - How to connect your Tivo devices to a MoCA Network
> - Special issues (Tuning Adapters, FiOS customers)
> - Troubleshooting most common issues
> 
> *FiOS TV customers:* Skip to near the end if you have setup questions.
> 
> *What is MoCA?*
> 
> Simply put, MoCA is ethernet over coax cable. It's a networking standard that allows you to transmit data over the coax cable in your home. It's an alternative to ethernet, wireless, and powerline adapters.
> 
> *Why use MoCA?*
> 
> Ethernet is ideal for home networking, but because most homes don't have ethernet cable running throughout them, most people use wireless [802.11] adapters as an alternative.
> 
> Wireless adapters can be slower and less reliable than a wired connection for many reasons. Because of this, Tivo recommends using a wired connection for multi-room streaming between Tivo devices. MoCA is a good option to use because it's faster and more reliable than wireless, and it uses the coax cable already running through your home.
> 
> If you have only 1 Tivo device, you may not need MoCA. A wireless adapter (or the Tivo Roamio's built-in wireless) may be all you need. This guide is mainly intended to help people with 2 or more Tivo devices stream content between them, such as a Tivo DVR to a Tivo Mini.
> 
> *Enabling MoCA in the Home*
> 
> There are two ways to set up a MoCA network:
> 
> Option 1: Connect MoCA-enabled Tivos by ethernet and use the Tivo to establish the MoCA network.
> Option 2: Connect a MoCA adapter to your router. (Choose this option if running ethernet to your Tivo is not desirable.)
> 
> *Option 1: Connect Tivo via Ethernet*
> Platforms Supported: Roamio Pro, Roamio Plus, XL4 (a/k/a Elite), Premiere 4
> 
> This option allows the Tivo itself to function as a MoCA bridge for the rest of the home.
> 
> 1. Connect your Tivo (one of the boxes listed above) to your router via Ethernet.
> 2. Go in the Network Settings, select 'Change Network Settings' and select 'Use this DVR to create a MoCA Network.'
> 
> That's it! Your MoCA network is created!
> 
> 3. Go into the Network Settings of your other MoCA-supported devices (Mini, Premiere 4, XL4) and select "MoCA" as their network connection type.
> 
> _(Note: Using this method, your Mini(s) or other secondary MoCA devices are relying on your Tivo DVR for its internet connection, so if your Tivo DVR is offline for some reason, so are the secondary devices.)_
> 
> If you have a Tivo on your network that does not support MoCA, check below for the "Setting up a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio for MoCA" section if you would like to get them connected to MoCA too.
> 
> *Option 2: Use a MoCA Adapter*
> Platforms Supported: Roamio Pro, Roamio Plus, XL4 (a/k/a Elite), Premiere 4
> 
> 1. If running an ethernet cable to your Tivo is not desirable or possible, purchase a MoCA adapter ($50 from tivo.com, and also available on Amazon, eBay, etc.).
> 2. Connect it to your modem and router as shown below to create a MoCA network.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's it! Once the above diagram is completed, this will enable MoCA throughout the home.
> 
> 3. Choose "MoCA" in the Network Settings on each Tivo box.
> 
> If you have a Tivo that does not have built-in MoCA support, check below for the "Setting up a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio for MoCA" section if you would like to get them connected to the MoCA network as well.
> 
> *Setting up a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio for MoCA:*
> 
> Platforms Supported: All Tivos with an ethernet port but not MoCA support (namely, 2-tuner Tivos and the 4-tuner basic Roamio.)
> 
> 2-tuner Tivos and the basic 4-tuner Tivo Roamio do not natively support MoCA. However, you can still connect them to a MoCA network if you wish.
> 
> Follow one of the above options to create the MoCA network. You must also purchase additional MoCA adapters for each of the additional non-MoCA Tivos you wish to connect to the MoCA network, and connect them in this fashion:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *FiOS TV Customers:*
> 
> Your home is already MoCA-enabled if your Verizon-supplied router is connected via coax. Your P4/XL4/Roamio Plus/Roamio Pro and Mini can simply be connected to the coax, select "MoCA" under their Network Settings, and that's all that needs to be done.
> 
> If you would like to connect a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio to your MoCA network, follow the previous section's instructions on how to connect MoCA adapters to these Tivos.
> 
> *POE FILTER:*
> 
> It is recommended that you install a MoCA Point of Entry (POE) filter at your cable TV's point of entry in the home. This helps keep your MoCA signal strong, prevents it from exiting your home and potentially allowing neighbors access to your network, or creating interference with neighbor's services. They're $9 on Tivo.com and can also be purchased cheaply elsewhere (eBay, etc).
> 
> If you are a FiOS TV customer, a POE filter isn't necessary.
> 
> *Tuning Adapters:*
> 
> If your Tivo setup requires a Tuning Adapter supplied by the cableco, the below image shows the recommended setup to allow the tuning adapter and MoCA network to co-exist.
> 
> From the Splitter:
> - 1 line goes to the Tuning Adapter, then connect the TA to the Tivo's USB port. Don't use the TA's RF-Out.
> - The other line goes to the Tivo if it has built-in moca support, or to the MoCA adapter if your Tivo model needs one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Most Common Problems:*
> 
> The most common problems associated with MoCA are old or inadequate splitters, loss of internet connectivity, signal amplifiers (amps) somewhere on the line, and aged coax cabling.
> 
> At the very least, make sure all of the coax connection points are firm.
> 
> Splitters: In the event of signal issues (such as bad performance or devices not seeing each other), old or inadequate splitters are a common issue. Replace any old or inadequate splitters (rated less than 1000 MHz) with new splitters that are rated for 1000 MHz (1GHz) or higher. Some splitters originally intended for satellite use can also cause moca signal problems. Those should be replaced as well.
> 
> Amps: Signal amps should be placed at the coax cable's point of entry in the house. However, sometimes they are not. Ideally the amp should be moved. But if that is too complicated, the amp should be rated to pass through signals of at least 1000 MHz (1GHz) bi-directionally. Replace if necessary.
> 
> Old coax: Very old and weathered/damaged coax cable and loose connection points might be to blame as well. These coax lines would have to be replaced with new coax.
> 
> Loss of internet connectivity: If you lose your internet connectivity when activating MoCA, install a MoCA POE filter on the coax right before your cable modem ($8 on ebay).
> 
> SDV Tuning Adapter malfunctions: If your SDV Tuning Adapter isn't working correctly when activating MoCA, install a MoCA POE filter on the coax right before your Tuning Adapter ($8 on ebay).
> 
> NIM100 MoCA adapters: Older NIM100 MoCA adapters have been known to be incompatible with the built-in MoCA support of Tivo boxes. The "work-around" is to either not use the Tivo's integrated MoCA (use adapters instead) or replace the older NIM100's with newer adapters.
> 
> *Pro Tip:*
> 
> Using MoCA setup option #2? Connect your Smart TV, Blu-ray player, Roku, or other device to the Tivo's Ethernet port! Those devices can daisy chain off your Tivo's MoCA connection. _(If you want to connect multiple devices, you can get a cheap Ethernet hub and plug it into the Tivo's port too.)_
> 
> If there are ideas or things missed in the guide (but remember it's not a complete and total MoCA FAQ, just a setup guide) then post them here. I'll add them!


I recently received a channel lineup adding a VODDM update it was also pushed onto my home network through MoCa as I noticed it pop up on Norton. The problem I now have is that my old series 2 when it did the new channel lineup Voddm is now the only channel on my guide. I did a channel reset, a complete C&D and all updates still only show the 1 channel. I sent off a channel lineup error request but they said 7 day before anyone will get back to me. My cable company said they have made no changes in signals. The channels are there if I put them in individually but that doesn't do me any good when programming. Any suggestions anyone?


----------



## HarperVision

rob4crib said:


> I recently received a channel lineup adding a VODDM update it was also pushed onto my home network through MoCa as I noticed it pop up on Norton. The problem I now have is that my old series 2 when it did the new channel lineup Voddm is now the only channel on my guide. I did a channel reset, a complete C&D and all updates still only show the 1 channel. I sent off a channel lineup error request but they said 7 day before anyone will get back to me. My cable company said they have made no changes in signals. The channels are there if I put them in individually but that doesn't do me any good when programming. Any suggestions anyone?


Have you looked in your TiVo's Channel List menu to see if the channels are there but just not checked to show in your guide and while you surf?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Swenny said:


> Bought the new amp. Still cannot get the coax light to light up on either MoCA box when connected as shown. I'm wondering if one of the Actiontec boxes is defective because the Ethernet light never comes on. Makes me think they both are. Next steps would be appreciated


Seems unlikely they'd both be defective. I'd swap them at the router/modem, reboot everything (Mini, modem, router), and see if the Mini can find the new one.

If nothing still, I'd take the amp out of the equation and see what happens when moca lines are on the same splitter (1GHz), downstream from the amp. (Reboot everything again.) And if still nothing, swap adapters again to eliminate possibility of a defective adapter.

If still nothing I'd question the coax itself... whether there's anything else on any of the lines, damage, or it's old RG59 (RG6 preferred).


----------



## Swenny

I sent an email to Actiontec about the MoCAs and received this reply. Hope this info helps someone else who ordered two boxes



> Actiontec Support Team's response is:
> =========================
> These are basic plug n play devices. Do these quick tests for functionality in order...
> 
> Test 1
> 
> Take both adapters, connect the ethernet cable into both adapters ethernet ports, take the coax cable and connect it to both adapter coax network port, connect both adapters power supplies. You should get all 3 lights on the moca adapters. If you do then do the next test, if not return units to store for replacements.
> 
> Test 2
> 
> Take ethernet cable from modem/router to first moca adapter then use a short coax cable between the coax network port on both adapters, then another ethernet adapter to a laptop. Power up the adapters and your computer should have internet access.
> 
> If both the above tests pass, then the issue will either be with the cabling between the 2 locations or the settings on the modem/router or the computer.


Going to try and have my buddy test tonight


----------



## Arcady

Sounds like solid troubleshooting advice from Actiontec there.


----------



## rob4crib

HarperVision said:


> Have you looked in your TiVo's Channel List menu to see if the channels are there but just not checked to show in your guide and while you surf?


Yes I have the only channel in the guide is 1 which the on demand channel the channels are there if entered manually


----------



## spaldingclan

so here's my problem: I have a Coax connectin near my upstairs TV but not one near my Tivo downstairs. I think I need to get a Coax connection to the Tivo or the router correct? currently my downstairs Tivo is a roamio so it's connected via ethernet. Help!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

spaldingclan said:


> so here's my problem: I have a Coax connectin near my upstairs TV but not one near my Tivo downstairs. I think I need to get a Coax connection to the Tivo or the router correct? currently my downstairs Tivo is a roamio so it's connected via ethernet. Help!


Roamio needs a coax connection or it won't get TV signals.


----------



## spaldingclan

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Roamio needs a coax connection or it won't get TV signals.


true but the only Coax connectin behind my Tivo roamio is one from my OTA antenna in my attic. I don't have cable tv and there's no coax to the in house coax behind my tivo


----------



## Random User 7

spaldingclan said:


> so here's my problem: I have a Coax connectin near my upstairs TV but not one near my Tivo downstairs. I think I need to get a Coax connection to the Tivo or the router correct? currently my downstairs Tivo is a roamio so it's connected via ethernet. Help!


use Ethernet to Coax by way of a MoCa adapter


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

spaldingclan said:


> true but the only Coax connectin behind my Tivo roamio is one from my OTA antenna in my attic. I don't have cable tv and there's no coax to the in house coax behind my tivo


When you say "no coax to my Tivo" are you talking about a Mini? I don't understand your posts. Can you explain your setup in detail and be specific with what you're trying to do and what the problem is?


----------



## spaldingclan

I have a TV in my bedroom that I'd like to put a Mini in (to replace the Premier thats there now) it has a coax connetion in the wall (though I dont use it because it's plugged into an indoor antenna, I dont have cable tv) on the main tv downstairs I have a Roamio basic that is also plugged int an indoor antenna. There is NOT any kind of coax in that room that would go back to a whole house system (like upstairs) How do I connect the upstairs mini to the downstairs Tivo (which does have a wired Ethernet back to my router) the upstairs tivo is connected to the home network via powerline adapters that dont work for crap)


----------



## HarperVision

spaldingclan said:


> I have a TV in my bedroom that I'd like to put a Mini in (to replace the Premier thats there now) it has a coax connetion in the wall (though I dont use it because it's plugged into an indoor antenna, I dont have cable tv) on the main tv downstairs I have a Roamio basic that is also plugged int an indoor antenna. There is NOT any kind of coax in that room that would go back to a whole house system (like upstairs) How do I connect the upstairs mini to the downstairs Tivo (which does have a wired Ethernet back to my router) the upstairs tivo is connected to the home network via powerline adapters that dont work for crap)


If powerline doesn't work and you don't want to wire up coax or ethernet, then your only other option seems to be using a wireless access point that can connect to your wifi router. Whats the distance between the two areas, as the crow flies, and what are the obstacles between them, like walls, etc.?


----------



## spaldingclan

HarperVision said:


> If powerline doesn't work and you don't want to wire up coax or ethernet, then your only other option seems to be using a wireless access point that can connect to your wifi router. Whats the distance between the two areas, as the crow flies, and what are the obstacles between them, like walls, etc.?


I think I'm not being clear here: I can connect the new Mini to a coax that is in the wall (the whole house coax that I currently dont use) but how do I get the tivo downstairs to connect to the MOCA network I've started that is in my family room if there's no coax connetion there? (only an ethernet connection)


----------



## HarperVision

spaldingclan said:


> I think I'm not being clear here: I can connect the new Mini to a coax that is in the wall (the whole house coax that I currently dont use) but how do I get the tivo downstairs to connect to the MOCA network I've started that is in my family room if there's no coax connetion there? (only an ethernet connection)


 If there's no coax there, then there's no MoCA possible since it stands for Multimedia over *COAX* Alliance. If you want to use Moca there, then the first thing you need to do is get coax there.


----------



## lethcoeb

I'd like to thank the original poster and all others following up - I've struggled a bit with my network since I have had a predominantly wireless infrastructure (with associated issues) but as of today I'm leveraging MoCA to push most of my network over MoCA.

I have my wireless router upstairs and I was extending my network wirelessly with a second wireless router (bridged to the first, and connected to all of my media components) then I realized that with an extra ethernet cable and another MoCA adapter, I can actually have a physical connection between the two routers through MoCA and my Tivo Premiere XL 4 backfeeding the signal to the second router.

Long story short, I've cut out the wireless extension of the network and still am flooding wireless where I need it, while having all of my media components now hard connected to the router.

TiVos are all connected via MoCA, and the new TiVo Mini is happily working as well!

Thanks - its working like a champ (not at Gigabit speeds of course, but must better than before)!


----------



## namwoljr

Quick MoCA question for the folks here:

So I bought an ActionTec adapter and installed it in the living room where my router is, hooked up my Mini via coax on the other side of the house, and the MoCA connection worked no problem. The Mini obviously doesn't need a MoCA adapter on its end, because it's built in.

If I were to buy another MoCA adapter and put it next to the Mini and take the coax coming in from the wall, plug it into the Coax In port, and then connect the Mini to the adapter via the TV/STB Out port, would the MoCA connection still work? The reason I might want to do this is to use the Ethernet port out of the MoCA adapter next to the Mini and connect it to an Apple TV, or if I'm feeling ambitious, another wireless router to create a wireless extender via a hardwire backbone.

I just don't know how smart these adapters are, or if MoCA passes through from the Coax In port to the TV/STB port. I'm assuming it might since some people have commented about the need to put a POE filter in-between their MoCA adapter and Modem because of interference issues.

Any input would be much appreciated!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

namwoljr said:


> If I were to buy another MoCA adapter and put it next to the Mini and take the coax coming in from the wall, plug it into the Coax In port, and then connect the Mini to the adapter via the TV/STB Out port, would the MoCA connection still work? The reason I might want to do this is to use the Ethernet port out of the MoCA adapter next to the Mini and connect it to an Apple TV, or if I'm feeling ambitious, another wireless router to create a wireless extender via a hardwire backbone.


Oddly, Actiontec adapters don't pass the moca signal through the RF-out connection. But there are options, depending on how ambitious you decide to get:

- Split the coax, with one leg going to the Mini and the other to the adapter.

- Connect a cheap ethernet switch (or router in bridge/AP mode) to the moca adapter and plug everything into that.

- Search for the ECB3500T01, a moca adapter with 4 ethernet ports.

- Search for the WCB3000N01, a moca adapter with 2 ports but also acts as a wireless extender.

The top two are the cheapest if you already have some of the equipment. The bottom two options reduce the amount of hardware (one adapter instead of an adapter + a switch/router).


----------



## namwoljr

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Oddly, Actiontec adapters don't pass the moca signal through the RF-out connection. But there are a few good options:
> 
> - Split the coax with one leg going to the Mini and the other to the adapter.
> 
> - Connect a cheap ethernet switch (or router in bridge/AP mode) to the moca adapter and plug everything into that.
> 
> - Search for the ECB3500T01, a moca adapter with 4 ethernet ports.
> 
> - Search for the WCB3000N01, a moca adapter with 2 ports but also acts as a wireless extender.


Looks like a splitter would be the ticket for me here. I actually thought of that after submitting my previous post, but still good to know for sure whether or not MoCA is passed through the RF-out connection. If only the Mini could act as a bridge, I wouldn't need even need a second ActionTec adapter...

Anyhow, time to put that spare wireless N router to good use and blanket my house with wireless internet!


----------



## Peter G

MoCa and OTA Tivo Question:

The new house has "home run" coax from the central location to all the rooms. The internet connection will come into this room which is where the cable modem and router will be set up. I have a Roamio Basic using OTA, and will have Minis at 2 or 3 TV locations. The Roamio will be next to the router also.

My plan is to connect the Off-Air Antenna to Roamia coax in, and connect it to the router via CAT5 cable. Then a MoCA adapter will also be connected to the router via Ethernet. Does this work to create a shared MoCA/Ethernet newtwork?

Finally to connect the other cables, would I connect a splitter to the MoCA adapter and the coax cables form each room to the splitter? If so which connection on the MoCA adapter would I use - coax in or TV/STB out?

Form Tivo website:

_Can some of my DVRs connect via MoCA, and others via Ethernet?_
"Yes. With MoCA enabled in your home, both Ethernet and MoCA devices can access your home network."

Is what I have described a correct way to create a MoCA network?

Thanks to you experts for any comments.

Peter G


----------



## Random User 7

It sounds like you are doing it similar to the way I did it. The difference is you are using Ethernet instead of MoCa with your Roamio. Coax in is what you want.

Blue is Ethernet, Orange is MoCa

I followed this and bought adapters off ebay on the cheap http://www.avsforum.com/forum/36-ho...-actiontec-mi424wr-cheap-moca-bridge-all.html


----------



## Peter G

Thanks Random,

I am hoping to eliminate one of the MoCA adapters by connecting the Roamio directly to the router with ethernet cable, as they will be physiclaly close to each other. Otherwise I have similar set up.

Assuming where all the coax come together in your sketch is a 4 way splitter; in from the 1st adapter, out to 3 minis and second adapter?

Thx

Peter G


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Peter G said:


> My plan is to connect the Off-Air Antenna to Roamia coax in, and connect it to the router via CAT5 cable. Then a MoCA adapter will also be connected to the router via Ethernet. Does this work to create a shared MoCA/Ethernet newtwork?


Yep as long as OTA coax is connected to the moca adapter (coax-in).



Peter G said:


> Finally to connect the other cables, would I connect a splitter to the MoCA adapter and the coax cables form each room to the splitter? If so which connection on the MoCA adapter would I use - coax in or TV/STB out?


The moca signal is not passed through the RF-out on the adapter, so don't connect any moca devices "downstream" from an adapter. You want the other devices to connect "upstream" from the adapter.

OTA coax goes to the moca adapter's RF-in. Then an ethernet connection to the router. Moca network is complete. No splitters needed. Connect the Minis in the rooms where desired (assuming they share a common central splitter with the moca adapter).


----------



## Peter G

BigJim,

If I had other TiVo boxes on the network, I can see where your approach might be needed. This would bring the OTA signal on to the network. However I have only the one master Roamio, which needs off-air signal. All other locations would be Minis which need only to borrow a tuner form the Roamio. So maybe I don't need to have OTA into anything but the Roamio? If I attach the OTA to Coax in on the adapter, then where do I hook the rest of the coax cables for the MoCA network?

If I understand the MoCA adapter, the "coax in" is really the network in and out, and the TV/STB out is just passing the TV or Cable signal to the TiVo box?

Also I believe each Mini has MoCA capability built in so I can connect the cable direct - no need for second MoCA adapter at each Mini?

PG


----------



## Random User 7

Peter G said:


> Thanks Random,
> 
> I am hoping to eliminate one of the MoCA adapters by connecting the Roamio directly to the router with ethernet cable, as they will be physiclaly close to each other. Otherwise I have similar set up.
> 
> Assuming where all the coax come together in your sketch is a 4 way splitter; in from the 1st adapter, out to 3 minis and second adapter?
> 
> Thx
> 
> Peter G


Exactly, we basically have the same setup. I didn't feel like running Ethernet to the Roamio and since I had coax there, I used MoCa. Most people need there in house wiring for antenna/cable but you are like me and just connected directly to the Roamio.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

This is where diagrams come in handy. I may just be misunderstanding the problem. 

The most common setup is that the video source (cable or OTA) has a main splitter that feeds all the rooms in the house. A moca adapter can be connected to any of the legs on the splitter, and then the entire house is lit up for moca.

The Minis don't need the OTA or cable signal, but that's beside the point. The key thing is they'd have a moca signal too. The unused video signal won't hurt anything.

You can create your own separate coax network for the other rooms if you want, but it's not necessary if the coax is already in place. If it's not in place, then you can do your own thing as long as the other moca devices are not connected to the RF-out side of the adapter. 

Yes to the last 2 questions.


----------



## Peter G

BigJim

Attached is a crude diagram of what I propose.

Question: Anyone know of a combined MoCA Adapter and Coax Splitter? Sort of a MoCA equivalent to Ethernet Router?


Thanks

Peter G


----------



## HarperVision

Peter G said:


> BigJim Attached is a crude diagram of what I propose. Question: Anyone know of a combined MoCA Adapter and Coax Splitter? Sort of a MoCA equivalent to Ethernet Router? Thanks Peter G


That looks like it should work to me, FWIW.

I do the same basic thing using DECA units instead of moca and have the cable line split and also going to the Roamio+ instead of an antenna. Ya know, sh*t that Bigg says doesn't work and is a "kludge", even though it's simple and it does.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The diagram should work, yes. The splitter will be necessary since there aren't any moca adapters with lots of coax ports.


----------



## Peter G

Thanks all,

Yes it would be nice if there was a MoCA adapter with several coax ports. They exist with several Ethernet ports but I did not find any with more than 1 coax network port, and 1 TV out port.

I'm beginning go to see how it is a common network whether Ethernet or coax. 

Peter G


----------



## Random User 7

Peter G said:


> Thanks all,
> 
> Yes it would be nice if there was a MoCA adapter with several coax ports. They exist with several Ethernet ports but I did not find any with more than 1 coax network port, and 1 TV out port.
> 
> I'm beginning go to see how it is a common network whether Ethernet or coax.
> 
> Peter G


Yup it will work. Reason for them not to make a MoCa adapter with additional ports is, it would be no different than what you are doing. The signal strength wouldn't be any better. There is no market other than what they could twist and make you believe. This would be like buying Monster brand HDMI cables.


----------



## Bartlett76

I just set up my new Roamio Pro a couple of days ago and am trying to get my MOCA up and running.

Everything seems to be working fine w/o a POE filter, but when I tried to add one, everything stops connecting.

My coax line comes into the house in a hall closet and is connected to a 6-way splitter there (as setup by Comcast). 5 of the coax lines go back into the wall and are dispersed to various rooms of the house. The 6th coax line goes to my router/modem which sits in the closet.

I added a MOCA adapter to the router/modem and can connect my Roamio Pro located in another room via Moca connection.

My problem comes in when I try to add a POE filter. I installed it from the line coming into the house to the splitter. But, when it is there, our wireless signal cuts in and out. Our phones and tablets act as if they see the wifi signal, but they can't actually receive any data.

The POE filter I am using is one purchased from Tivo.

Any thoughts on this? I can work w/o the POE filter, but I am worried about security and I certainly don't want to impact my neighbors' service.


----------



## h2oskierc

Is the POE filter on tight? I had issues when it wasn't fully tightened down. I had to thumb tighten, and then give it another 1/4 to 1/2 turn.


----------



## Bartlett76

h2oskierc said:


> Is the POE filter on tight? I had issues when it wasn't fully tightened down. I had to thumb tighten, and then give it another 1/4 to 1/2 turn.


I got it as tight as I could. I even used a wrench to make sure it was more than finger tight.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Is it just wifi devices, or wired devices too?

A defective filter can cause internet disruption, or somehow installed in the wrong place, but it sounds like you know what you're doing.


----------



## Peter G

Bartlett76: 

I found a neat device which may help your set up. It is a MoCA quality splitter with built in POE and bypass amplifier.

See this attached diagram. The bypass amp is model PCT-VC-F19A by PCT International ($69) and it includes 8 outputs.

For your set up ignore the OTA connection to the Roamio.

Peter G


----------



## Bartlett76

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Is it just wifi devices, or wired devices too?
> 
> A defective filter can cause internet disruption, or somehow installed in the wrong place, but it sounds like you know what you're doing.


I'm not sure. The only wired (Ethernet) device I had connected when I had the POE filter on was the Roamio Pro and I was still trying to figure out how to set everything up at that point.

Then my wife started complaining about her phone not working, so I took it off and everything was back to normal for Wi-Fi.

The cable signal did still work on all the TVs with the POE filter installed.

So, you think it may just be a bad POE filter? I hate to think that's the problem when I just got it and specifically got one direct from Tivo to make sure it's compatible.

BTW - thanks for saying I seem to know what I'm doing. I'm not sure that's entirely accurate, but I have picked a lot up from reading this forum so thanks everybody for all of the info.


----------



## HarperVision

Bartlett76 said:


> I'm not sure. The only wired (Ethernet) device I had connected when I had the POE filter on was the Roamio Pro and I was still trying to figure out how to set everything up at that point. Then my wife started complaining about her phone not working, so I took it off and everything was back to normal for Wi-Fi. The cable signal did still work on all the TVs with the POE filter installed. So, you think it may just be a bad POE filter? I hate to think that's the problem when I just got it and specifically got one direct from Tivo to make sure it's compatible. BTW - thanks for saying I seem to know what I'm doing. I'm not sure that's entirely accurate, but I have picked a lot up from reading this forum so thanks everybody for all of the info.


Are you sure that you don't have the "create a moca network" turned on in the Roamio too? It can certainly cause serious connection issues if you have two devices pushing a modulated moca signal down the same lines. Maybe when you remove the filter that's enough to allow some of the signal to leak out of your system and allow it to work, but when it's in place it reflects everything back into your system, pushing everything past the threshold, causing mayhem?


----------



## fcfc2

Bartlett76 said:


> I just set up my new Roamio Pro a couple of days ago and am trying to get my MOCA up and running.
> 
> Everything seems to be working fine w/o a POE filter, but when I tried to add one, everything stops connecting.
> 
> My coax line comes into the house in a hall closet and is connected to a 6-way splitter there (as setup by Comcast). 5 of the coax lines go back into the wall and are dispersed to various rooms of the house. The 6th coax line goes to my router/modem which sits in the closet.
> 
> I added a MOCA adapter to the router/modem and can connect my Roamio Pro located in another room via Moca connection.
> 
> My problem comes in when I try to add a POE filter. I installed it from the line coming into the house to the splitter. But, when it is there, our wireless signal cuts in and out. Our phones and tablets act as if they see the wifi signal, but they can't actually receive any data.
> 
> The POE filter I am using is one purchased from Tivo.
> 
> Any thoughts on this? I can work w/o the POE filter, but I am worried about security and I certainly don't want to impact my neighbors' service.


Hi, 
What is your modem/ router? Is it a combo / gateway unit? If the modem is not MoCA enabled the adapters will and can cause interference and disrupt your internet connection and this will likely impact the (internet) wireless also. If your modem is a combo / gateway which is not MoCA capable, install a MoCA filter on the input as well as one on the main input of your splitter. When you install the filter at the POE location, besides security issues, it tends to strengthen the MoCA signal on the local network, possibly inducing greater interference to your cable modem.


----------



## HarperVision

fcfc2 said:


> Hi, What is your modem/ router? Is it a combo / gateway unit? If the modem is not MoCA enabled the adapters will and can cause interference and disrupt your internet connection and this will likely impact the (internet) wireless also. If your modem is a combo / gateway which is not MoCA capable, install a MoCA filter on the input as well as one on the main input of your splitter. When you install the filter at the POE location, besides security issues, it tends to strengthen the MoCA signal on the local network, possibly inducing greater interference to your cable modem.


Also a GREAT suggestion! I would check each of the last two things and I'd be almost certain it's one of these two solutions that'll fix it for you.


----------



## Bartlett76

fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> What is your modem/ router? Is it a combo / gateway unit? If the modem is not MoCA enabled the adapters will and can cause interference and disrupt your internet connection and this will likely impact the (internet) wireless also. If your modem is a combo / gateway which is not MoCA capable, install a MoCA filter on the input as well as one on the main input of your splitter. When you install the filter at the POE location, besides security issues, it tends to strengthen the MoCA signal on the local network, possibly inducing greater interference to your cable modem.


It is a combo / gateway unit. I will check on the other possible solutions tonight. If they don't work, I'll order a 2nd POE filter and try that. Thanks!


----------



## fcfc2

Bartlett76 said:


> It is a combo / gateway unit. I will check on the other possible solutions tonight.  If they don't work, I'll order a 2nd POE filter and try that. Thanks!


Hi again,
If you think another MoCA filter will be needed, Ebay is by far the least expensive place to look. By the way, a Whole Home DVR filter and a POE filter are functionally the same thing. The ones below have a weather seal but will do the job outside or inside.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-MoCA-PPC-...372?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2349854df4


----------



## HarperVision

Bartlett76 said:


> It is a combo / gateway unit. I will check on the other possible solutions tonight. If they don't work, I'll order a 2nd POE filter and try that. Thanks!


Did you also check my suggestion, which could be causing your issue? (See below)



HarperVision said:


> Are you sure that you don't have the "create a moca network" turned on in the Roamio too? It can certainly cause serious connection issues if you have two devices pushing a modulated moca signal down the same lines. Maybe when you remove the filter that's enough to allow some of the signal to leak out of your system and allow it to work, but when it's in place it reflects everything back into your system, pushing everything past the threshold, causing mayhem?


----------



## Bartlett76

So, I tried it out again last night and the POE filter is still blocking the Wi-Fi signal. It is also blocking the wired signal to my Roamio Pro. As soon as I take it off, everything works again.

I have verified that Roamio Pro is set as "MoCA" in the network settings and not "Use this DVR to create a MoCA Network".

I guess I will be ordering another POE filter. Once it arrives, I'll try the new one where I've tried the current one to make sure the POE I already have isn't a lemon. If the new one does the same thing, I'll put the second one on the coax line coming from the splitter into the router/modem combo unit.

If that doesn't work, then I guess I'm going filterless, unless anybody has any other ideas.


----------



## HarperVision

Bartlett76 said:


> So, I tried it out again last night and the POE filter is still blocking the Wi-Fi signal. It is also blocking the wired signal to my Roamio Pro. As soon as I take it off, everything works again. I have verified that Roamio Pro is set as "MoCA" in the network settings and not "Use this DVR to create a MoCA Network". I guess I will be ordering another POE filter. Once it arrives, I'll try the new one where I've tried the current one to make sure the POE I already have isn't a lemon. If the new one does the same thing, I'll put the second one on the coax line coming from the splitter into the router/modem combo unit. If that doesn't work, then I guess I'm going filterless, unless anybody has any other ideas.


Wow, that's a baffler! Great troubleshooting so far. I certainly think you're on the right track with the new filter. Can you take any pictures of your cable drop area where the splitter is? Any chance the input from the street is going to one of the "outputs" instead, so when you connect the filter to the "input" it actually blocks the signal? Can you see and follow the wire paths?

Just grasping at straws now, but stranger things have happened. I'm betting on the new filter working.


----------



## Bartlett76

HarperVision said:


> Wow, that's a baffler! Great troubleshooting so far. I certainly think you're on the right track with the new filter. Can you take any pictures of your cable drop area where the splitter is? Any chance the input from the street is going to one of the "outputs" instead, so when you connect the filter to the "input" it actually blocks the signal? Can you see and follow the wire paths?
> 
> Just grasping at straws now, but stranger things have happened. I'm betting on the new filter working.


The wires all just come out of a hole in the wall in a big cluster. But, I've checked each one to try to pinpoint where each is running to, so I'm pretty certain that the right one is going to the input on the splitter (where I tried the POE filter).

I'll be sure to update the prognosis with the new filter after it comes (hopefully on Thursday). Fingers crossed.

Thanks to everybody for your suggestions. You've been very helpful!


----------



## fcfc2

Bartlett76 said:


> The wires all just come out of a hole in the wall in a big cluster. But, I've checked each one to try to pinpoint where each is running to, so I'm pretty certain that the right one is going to the input on the splitter (where I tried the POE filter).
> 
> I'll be sure to update the prognosis with the new filter after it comes (hopefully on Thursday). Fingers crossed.
> 
> Thanks to everybody for your suggestions. You've been very helpful!


Hi again, 
I am starting to suspect that there is something missing in the coax wiring and that there is possibly another splitter somewhere before that 6 way that is feeding one or more coax outlets in your home. Is there a box on the outside of your home from the cable company. Normally, this is the proper location for the installation of a POE filter. Sometimes they have security fittings on these, but sometimes not. If you can open it, install your POE filter there. If you can't easily get into the box, simply examine the number of coax cables coming out of it. If there is more than one in and one out, it is likely that it is being split before your 6 way. Sometimes they make a direct run for the cable modem, don't know but an educated guess. If so, and you put the filter on the leg feeding the 6 way, you effectively cut the MoCA coax connection to the modem/router.
By the way, when you say you lose wireless, do you actually mean you lose internet access?


----------



## Bartlett76

Thanks again for all of the suggestions from everyone. I still can't get the POE filter to work though. Here are diagrams of the setups I've tried...

#1 - POE filter at cable splitter in hall closet (I've tried 2 different filters)

#2 - POE filter in box outside of the house where line in from the street meets the line into the house (joined at a grounding block)

#3 - 2 POE filters, 1 at splitter and 1 at modem/router gateway


For the 2 filters I've been trying, 1 was purchased directly through TiVO and the other was purchased from Amazon (with lots of positive reviews from TiVO users).

In every combination I've tried so far, the cable tv signal still comes through just fine. But, the internet signal (both wired and wifi) stops working. The wireless devises say they are getting the wifi signal, but they won't load any data. If I take off the filter(s), everything goes back to working properly.


----------



## Bartlett76

Sorry, In all 3 diagrams, the second line from the network adapter to the modem/router gateway should be blue to designate Ethernet. I forgot to change the color when I was drawing it.


----------



## Random User 7

Can you split the line between the outside box and the splitter and add your cable modem in at that point? Connect the split line from the outside to the big splitter. Leave the POE on the line coming in from the outside box but before the splitter. Plug the MoCa adapter to a port on the router and then the coax to the big splitter.


----------



## fcfc2

Hi again,
The setup I suggest is one filter outside in the box, and one filter on the input to your cable modem. The one combo you didn't try.
Next point, in your diagrams, you appear to be using the outputs from your MoCA adapters, I recommend using a splitter before each and using a 75 ohm terminator on the output of the adapters especially the one by your cable modem.
EDIT: When trouble shooting, try changing just one filter at a time, never 2.


----------



## Peter G

Bartlett,

MoCA frequency (D Band) is 1125 MHz to 1525 MHz. Your splitter may be marginal at these frequencies. Maybe try a new MoCA band splitter? Also be sure the POE filters are MoCA not DECA, which will filter out a different part of the band. DECA are for satellite TV networks. 

According to another poster, the Actiontec MoCA adapter do not pass the MoCA signal to the TV/STB pport, so theoretically you should not need POE filter between adapter and modem/router.

Otherwise not obvious why your network won't work, your diagrams 1 or 2 should be correct.

Peter G


----------



## Random User 7

The POE filters are fine, splitter should be fine as well.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

No obvious problems with that setup. All 3 should work fine as they are. You could try a different main splitter just for sh!!ts and giggles, but I don't know if that'll do anything.

Can you check your cable modem settings and tell us what the upload and download frequencies are? Maybe your cableco uses a high frequency that the POE filter blocks or something. Also what's the model # on the modem?


----------



## mccoydl

It seems that most people aren't using diplexers like you did to setup their MoCA network. From my research it sounds like including them is the best way to setup and optimize a MoCA network. 

I currently don't use them on my MoCA network but have been thinking about adding them to see if they improve my speeds. I was wondering if you did any testing with and without them to see if any difference or what your thoughts are on using them? Thanks for your help.


----------



## FatHead!

i've read through a hand full of posts and chatted with tivo support, but i'm still a bit unclear about MoCA. Currently i have a Roamio Plus which is connected to coax line and ethernet to my router. 

i'd like to get a mini to use in an upstairs room. this room has a coax cable, but no ability to get an ethernet connection to the router.

the coax comes to the house, where it is split to upstairs and downstairs. the upstairs may have another splitter and cable going to two rooms, but only one TV is connected. the downstairs is split, going to the modem and the roamio.

will this set up work using the MoCA adapter built into the Roamio? is there anything else i would need to put into place to get the Mini to work, besides maybe a POE filter? 

thanks for any help.


----------



## fcfc2

FatHead! said:


> i've read through a hand full of posts and chatted with tivo support, but i'm still a bit unclear about MoCA. Currently i have a Roamio Plus which is connected to coax line and ethernet to my router.
> 
> i'd like to get a mini to use in an upstairs room. this room has a coax cable, but no ability to get an ethernet connection to the router.
> 
> the coax comes to the house, where it is split to upstairs and downstairs. the upstairs may have another splitter and cable going to two rooms, but only one TV is connected. the downstairs is split, going to the modem and the roamio.
> 
> will this set up work using the MoCA adapter built into the Roamio? is there anything else i would need to put into place to get the Mini to work, besides maybe a POE filter?
> 
> thanks for any help.


Hi,
Your setup looks good except you need a POE or Whole Home Dvr Filter on the input to the first splitter and you may need one on the input to your cable modem if it doesn't have a filter built in, most of the arris/motorola 6xxx series have them builtin. 
Here is a lifetime supply for a good price
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pieces-Mo...596?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2344277b9c


----------



## Peter G

Fathead:

Follow these steps, you basically already have the MoCA network:
1) Connect the coax cable coming from the wall to the Cable/MoCA port on the Roamio Plus/Pro.
2) Connect an Ethernet cable from your home network to the Ethernet port on the Roamio Plus/Pro. 
(You already have done these 2)
3) If you are setting up your TiVo box for the first time, during Guided Setup choose "Ethernet" as your network connection type if prompted.
4) Go to 'Settings' > 'Network' > 'Change Network Settings.' Then choose 'Use this DVR to create MoCA a MoCA network. 
5) Connect the Mini to the coax cable
6) Set the mini to use MoCA

The POE filter will go where the cable drop comes into the house, before the first splitter.
Second filter may or may not be needed to isolate the modem, it should not hurt to add. My cable modem from Charter does not seem to need this; I did not see any issue when I added the MoCA to the network. I bought one just in case but have not installed it yet.

Basically you already have the network in place you just need to turn it on.

Peter G


----------



## Pacomartin

Peter G said:


> The POE filter will go where the cable drop comes into the house, before the first splitter. Second filter may or may not be needed to isolate the modem, it should not hurt to add. My cable modem from Charter does not seem to need this; I did not see any issue when I added the MoCA to the network. I bought one just in case but have not installed it yet.


The second filter may not be necessary, but it can't hurt and it is inexpensive. The argument for them is that they may save you a lot of effort at a later time.

I know the RCN techs always install them here in the Lehigh Valley. They said that the number of truck rolls was cut back considerably.


----------



## valmal1957

Hi everyone,

I have set up my Roamio Pro directly into my cable modem/router (which is Verizon Fios and less than a year old) My only problem is that on my Tivo Premiere says it is connected by ethernet but the option to hook up to MoCA is not listed. I did connect the MoCA adapter to the Premiere as I was instructed to by Tivo technical support. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks.


----------



## HarperVision

valmal1957 said:


> Hi everyone, I have set up my Roamio Pro directly into my cable modem/router (which is Verizon Fios and less than a year old) My only problem is that on my Tivo Premiere says it is connected by ethernet but the option to hook up to MoCA is not listed. I did connect the MoCA adapter to the Premiere as I was instructed to by Tivo technical support. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks.


What version premiere do you have? Only the Premiere 4 has moca I believe. Also, if you're using a moca adapter then that usually converts the coax ethernet signal back to CAT5,5e,6 ethernet for your device. Sounds like that's why your premiere is saying it's connected to ethernet and not moca, because as far as your premiere knows it's just Ethernet. What do you have connected between your moca adapter and Premiere, as instructed by TiVo support? (Coax, ethernet, etc)


----------



## Swenny

Before I take all of this to a grassy field and re-create a scene from Office Space, someone please tell me what I am doing wrong here

(Software used found here. Export as a PNG for uploading: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dia-installer/)

My issue is the Mini keeps giving me a C133 error

Couple things also
1. There is no option in the Roamio settings to use a MoCA network because it is a Basic one. Unless I'm missing something that option is only in the Plus and Pro versions, correct?
2. My next steps are to swap the 2 port splitter with a 4 port and connect the Mini there to see if it will connect
3. Any diagnostics I can do on the Mini that people are aware of to test the coax port?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Looks like it's setup fine. You might consider putting a POE filter on the tuning adapter's coax (particularly if it's a Cisco) as they can interfere with each other, but that's not likely what's breaking things. Though you could temporarily unplug it just for the sake of troubleshooting.

Swapping box locations (move Roamio and adapter to Mini's location and vise versa) may help ID the problem being with the cabling or the box.


----------



## fcfc2

Swenny said:


> Before I take all of this to a grassy field and re-create a scene from Office Space, someone please tell me what I am doing wrong here
> 
> (Software used found here. Export as a PNG for uploading: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dia-installer/)
> 
> My issue is the Mini keeps giving me a C133 error
> 
> Couple things also
> 1. There is no option in the Roamio settings to use a MoCA network because it is a Basic one. Unless I'm missing something that option is only in the Plus and Pro versions, correct?
> 2. My next steps are to swap the 2 port splitter with a 4 port and connect the Mini there to see if it will connect
> 3. Any diagnostics I can do on the Mini that people are aware of to test the coax port?


#1 Yes, no MoCA on Basic.
#2 Agree with swapping mini location to trouble shoot.
#3 Don't know but if you cannot connect probably not.
Other points
That 8 port MoCA amp may have a builtin POE filter, what make and model is it, check specs. Try a different port on the amp to the mini. I know that the MoCA adapters have in and out ports but I never use the out ports, always use a MoCA rated splitter before the adapter. Get some 75 ohm coax terminators and use on any open ports anywhere on your setup.


----------



## Swenny

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Looks like it's setup fine. You might consider putting a POE filter on the tuning adapter's coax (particularly if it's a Cisco) as they can interfere with each other, but that's not likely what's breaking things. Though you could temporarily unplug it just for the sake of troubleshooting.
> 
> Swapping box locations (move Roamio and adapter to Mini's location and vise versa) may help ID the problem being with the cabling or the box.


I was going to mention that it is not a Cisco TA. I'll add unplugging it to my troubleshooting anyway



fcfc2 said:


> #1 Yes, no MoCA on Basic.
> #2 Agree with swapping mini location to trouble shoot.
> #3 Don't know but if you cannot connect probably not.
> Other points
> That 8 port MoCA amp may have a builtin POE filter, what make and model is it, check specs. Try a different port on the amp to the mini. I know that the MoCA adapters have in and out ports but I never use the out ports, always use a MoCA rated splitter before the adapter. Get some 75 ohm coax terminators and use on any open ports anywhere on your setup.


Here's the amp I got: http://www.pctstore.com/Unity_Gain_MoCA_Bypass_Amplifier_PCT_VC_F19A_p/pctvcf19a.htm

Here's the data sheet: http://www.pctcorporate.com/images/...CA-Bypass-Amplifiers_PCT-VC-F19A_20140130.pdf

I have one open port that does not have a terminator on it. I can try that.

I also do not recall which port the modem is plugged into (might be port 1) but if I'm reading this correctly it appears they should all be able to communicate with each other as long as they are on one of the numbered ports. The Roamio is on port 7 and the Mini is on port 6

Any other ideas? Thanks all


----------



## telemark

Don't Mini's show the PHY rates?

From TiVo Central > Settings & Messages > Settings > Network > View Network Status


----------



## Swenny

telemark said:


> Don't Mini's show the PHY rates?
> 
> From TiVo Central > Settings & Messages > Settings > Network > View Network Status


Not sure. Since the basic Roamios don't I never thought to look there


----------



## fcfc2

Swenny said:


> I was going to mention that it is not a Cisco TA. I'll add unplugging it to my troubleshooting anyway
> 
> Here's the amp I got: http://www.pctstore.com/Unity_Gain_MoCA_Bypass_Amplifier_PCT_VC_F19A_p/pctvcf19a.htm
> 
> Here's the data sheet: http://www.pctcorporate.com/images/...CA-Bypass-Amplifiers_PCT-VC-F19A_20140130.pdf
> 
> I have one open port that does not have a terminator on it. I can try that.
> 
> I also do not recall which port the modem is plugged into (might be port 1) but if I'm reading this correctly it appears they should all be able to communicate with each other as long as they are on one of the numbered ports. The Roamio is on port 7 and the Mini is on port 6
> 
> Any other ideas? Thanks all


Hi again,
You can remove the POE filter feeding the amp, there is a filter builtin to the amp. Do not use the port on the upper right, this is an unamped feed to go directly, no splitters etc. to the modem/ gateway. The idea is that it would continue to feed internet to gateway and possibly allow voip to continue to work, where if you use a powered port and it loses power, you have no internet or phone, but this is of limited use in my opinion as loss of power will shut down phones, computers, etc. For troubleshooting use only the numbered ports. You might try that spare POE filter on the TA.
When you swap out that splitter do not use the output from the adapter to feed your Roamio, use a seperate cable and terminate the output. Those 75 omh terminators are readily available at Home Depot, about $4 for 10. The terminators just eliminate a source of interference and signal leakage/loss but will have little impact on MoCA. 
MoCA rated splitters are recommended especially when having problems. They are available from Amazon, Verizon Fios Equipment and Accessories Store
https://teleproducts.verizon.com/fios/index.cfm/eh/ShowCart , 
and from this place 
http://www.techtoolsupply.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=catv+moca+rated


----------



## aaronwt

telemark said:


> Don't Mini's show the PHY rates?
> 
> From TiVo Central > Settings & Messages > Settings > Network > View Network Status


Yes they do.


----------



## Peter G

Swenny,

I have the same MoCA Distribution Amp, works well. In your diagram, you have a splitter at MoCA # 2 and Tuning Adapter - make sure the splitter will pass up to 1.6 GHz (MoCA signal is from 1125 to 1525 MHz).

You can use the Modem output port to MoCA #1 and then on to your modem. See my diagram - attached. This is actaully the correct port for the modem.

Peter G


----------



## Swenny

Peter G said:


> Swenny,
> 
> I have the same MoCA Distribution Amp, works well. In your diagram, you have a splitter at MoCA # 2 and Tuning Adapter - make sure the splitter will pass up to 1.6 GHz (MoCA signal is from 1125 to 1525 MHz).
> 
> You can use the Modem output port to MoCA #1 and then on to your modem. See my diagram - attached. This is actaully the correct port for the modem.
> 
> Peter G


Thanks Peter. Glad to know I'm not completely crazy

EDIT: One thing I can see that is different is I have my modem going into Port 1 instead of the Modem port. Port 1 is 2-way as opposed to 1-way like the others. The reason I hooked that up there is there is an amp that powers the modem. For whatever reason, I can only get the modem to work with that amp attached directly to it. I thought it would only work on that line also, but I could be wrong

Because of this wall amp I'm not using the wall amp that came with the 8 port amp, if that makes sense

Peter, can you confirm you don't have anything plugged into the Pwr port?


----------



## Peter G

Swenny

Not shown in my diagram, I am using the power supply that came with the PCT amp to provide power throught the upper Left connection. See attached (it shows 4 port amp, 8 port works same).

You can see here that PCT recommends the MoCA and Modem to connect through upper left port. This is a 2 way port. It is just not amplified. 

Peter G


----------



## Swenny

I bet the T tap adapter on the wall amp is the issue. I bet it stops at 1002mhz

Crap

Thanks for the reply about the amp power. Going to hook that up tomorrow night


----------



## telemark

What is a "wall amp"?

Traditional amps are one-way devices. 
They have to designed with a bypass to allow them to pass two-way signals.


----------



## telemark

mccoydl said:


> It seems that most people aren't using diplexers like you did to setup their MoCA network. From my research it sounds like including them is the best way to setup and optimize a MoCA network.
> 
> I currently don't use them on my MoCA network but have been thinking about adding them to see if they improve my speeds. I was wondering if you did any testing with and without them to see if any difference or what your thoughts are on using them? Thanks for your help.


I like diplexers, but reserve recommending them to marginal signal situations where they're required. There is some extra effort in obtaining them and ensuring the network is laid out in a conform way. If you can already get a good signal with common splitters, the advantage is diminished.


----------



## Peter G

Sweeney,

I see that you are powering the MoCA amp through port 1. But still I would use them modem port to the modem and NoCA 1. Use the power inserted near the mini to power the amp and connect that's port 1. The power insert that came with the amp should pass MoCA in both directions. 

Peter G


----------



## Swenny

telemark said:


> What is a "wall amp"?
> 
> Traditional amps are one-way devices.
> They have to designed with a bypass to allow them to pass two-way signals.


That's what I was calling the power adapter that supplies power to the amp. In this case, it was attached to a diplexer with an in, out, and a power port. In was coming from the wall, out was going to MoCA #1, and power was connected to the power adapter

I'm also pleased to report that after much trial and error and replacing the MoCA boxes, I finally got it :up:

The end solution for me was to hook it up the way two TiVo reps told me it wouldn't work and the people on this forum told me it would. I only used one MoCA box at the modem and then connected the Roamio to the router. Once I did that, everything started working. I did find an older splitter that I swapped but once everything was working I swapped it back and everything still works. I moved the power adapter to a different outlet and port upstairs also if that matters

I'm trying to figure out why it wasn't working and maybe some people can help me here

Here's what I'm confused about:

- I combined the coax feed to MoCA #1 and MoCA #2 by putting them on a splitter, and connected it to the port that MoCA #1 was on and it couldn't connect to the Mini. Why? It almost seems like they were both trying to create a MoCA network.....

The second screenshot shows what I was getting on the Mini at one point. I don't recall what I had replaced or where I was


----------



## Peter G

Sweeny

Minis don't need the MoCA adapter, so I think you are correct, the two MoCA's were somehow conflicting. Only one would have been needed to create the network and I'm not sure how even that would work. The output from the Moca would need to go into the coax network and the ethernet to the router, so there is no connection left for the mini. The STB out of the MoCA adapter does not pass MoCA, this is only for cable signal.

I would need to see a diagram of that but since it didn't work it was obviously not right. The way you have it set up now matches my understanding and is similar to my network, although I needed second MoCA adapter upstairs by the Roamio since I could not connect via ethernet to that location.

Also you should not need the added POE, as the PCT amp you are using has that built in. Probably does not hurt anything but may be adding some unnecessary attenuation.

Peter G


----------



## Swenny

Peter G said:


> Sweeny
> 
> Minis don't need the MoCA adapter, so I think you are correct, the two MoCA's were somehow conflicting. Only one would have been needed to create the network and I'm not sure how even that would work. The output from the Moca would need to go into the coax network and the ethernet to the router, so there is no connection left for the mini. The STB out of the MoCA adapter does not pass MoCA, this is only for cable signal.


According to TiVo help, you need two. One to create the network and the other to connect the basic Roamio to the network. It's only a basic one remember https://www.tivo.com/my-account/how-to/how-connect-your-tivo-box-your-home-network#option2



> I would need to see a diagram of that but since it didn't work it was obviously not right. The way you have it set up now matches my understanding and is similar to my network, although I needed second MoCA adapter upstairs by the Roamio since I could not connect via ethernet to that location.


Diagrams are attached in a couple places. And your setup is how I was trying to connect mine but for whatever reason it did not want to work



> Also you should not need the added POE, as the PCT amp you are using has that built in. Probably does not hurt anything but may be adding some unnecessary attenuation.


Noted


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Swenny said:


> Here's what I'm confused about:
> 
> - I combined the coax feed to MoCA #1 and MoCA #2 by putting them on a splitter, and connected it to the port that MoCA #1 was on and it couldn't connect to the Mini. Why? It almost seems like they were both trying to create a MoCA network.....


Can't quite follow what you're asking here. (What is "it"?) But if you connected a moca device to the cable-out port of a moca adapter, that would be a problem since moca adapters don't pass moca signals through their cable-out ports.


----------



## Swenny

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Can't quite follow what you're asking here. (What is "it"?) But if you connected a moca device to the cable-out port of a moca adapter, that would be a problem since *moca adapters don't pass moca signals through their cable-out ports*.


Correct. But the Roamio passes the MoCA signal through Ethernet to the MoCA adapter and then to the Cable In port

Right? Maybe?

I'll ask Actiontec. They seem to know more than the TiVo reps


----------



## wscottcross

I set up my Mini in the bedroom where I have no ethernet and since I have a Roamio Basic, I couldn't use MoCA out of the box. I had some limited success with powerline networking, but it was far from perfect. I purchased the Actiontec MoCA adapter and connected it to my Cable modem/router in the basement. It worked when I set it up but would occasionally give C501 errors on the Mini. I narrowed the problem down to an issue with someone streaming from Netflix on the Roamio and trying to do anything on the Mini. Once we stopped streaming at the Roamio, the Mini would work. 

The Roamio is connected to a 24 port GigE switch in the basement, so I moved the MoCA adapter over to the same switch and that resolved the issue. I find it strange that the one extra hop from the switch to the router was causing that much congestion. I guess since all the streaming traffic was coming in through the router and then I was pushing all the MoCA traffic back through the router, it was not handling it well. The GigE switch seems to do a much better job of handling the data streams. 

Lesson learned: Reduce the number of hops as much as possible to improve data flow.


----------



## aaronwt

I have run through half a dozen GigE switches and it has made no difference. Things are just as robust as going through one switch.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

C501 is a problem of some kind on Tivo's end that impacts apps and things like "What to Watch Now", not so much a networking problem. Some forced service connections can help those.


----------



## kozchris

I'm having a stuttering problem on my mini's I'm hoping someone has a good explanation for. I have a Roamio OTA, ActionTec MOCA adapter, 2 minis, and a Motorola SG6872AC MOCA /Cablemodem/router/hub.

My MOCA network is setup and if I connect a laptop to the Actiontec adapter next to my Roamio OTA and do a speedtest.net check I get 50M down 10M up. which is what Comcast says I should have. If I take the adapter and do the speed test at my Mini locations I get the same results. Those results would seem to indicate that I have an excellent network connection to the outside world over MOCA. 

When I go to the Mini network status screens I can see PHY numbers in the 250+ range and -26db in the signal strength. Which I think indicates the MOCA network is fine as the Minis see it. 

When I called Tivo support the person was telling me that I need to install a cable booster at the Roamio to fix the issues. I haven't bought into that solution yet. Does that even make sense? Aren't boosters 1 way, and bad to use in a MOCA environment? 

Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## telemark

Stuttering on the Minis, on LiveTV, or on Recordings, or when watching Internet video, or some combination?


----------



## kozchris

Stuttering just on the minis and then they get the V69 error. It happens with live or recorded TV for sure. I haven't played enough with the streaming of internet video to verify if that also has an issue.


----------



## telemark

Do you know the layout of all your coax?

I would test how fast you can get bits off the Roamio to a wired PC.
You can use a web browser pointed to the TivoToGo url.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=215838&pp=20
Grab any TS stream, watch the transfer rate.

Another thing to do is monitor the MoCA status page from your cablemodem.
http://www.arrisi.com/modems/datasheet/SBG6782/SURFboard_SBG6782_AC_User_Guide.pdf

It doesn't say much but things like node disappearing or the network resetting should be apparent. Just leave it open when using the mini and glance at it every so often. When the Mini errors out see if anything changed on the status screen.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Do you have a means of testing the Minis using ethernet, just temporarily? Given your good troubleshooting so far, you may have to make sure it's a moca problem. If it stutters with ethernet as well, then it'd be a Roamio problem.


----------



## fcfc2

Hi koschris,
If you have no picture quality issues on your Roamio then there doesn't seem to be a need for an amp. PCT has a number of MoCA rated amps if needed. If you can temporarily run a length of ethernet to your minis to test as suggested this would rule in/out problems with the Roamio itself. 
Generally, the most likely cause of MoCA problems are poor cabling/ connectors, low quality splitters, and or cascading splitters. While standard splitters are often said to work fine, in problem situations, I highly recommend using MoCA rated splitters.
Verizon
https://www.verizon.com/home/fios-accessories/
Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_6?url=search-alias
%3Delectronics&field-keywords=moca+splitter&sprefix=moca+s%2Celectronics
%2C188
Tech Tool Supply
http://www.techtoolsupply.co/SearchResults.asp?Search=catv+moca+rated

One more thought, try a different ethernet cable from your Roamio to your router/ switch
One more, one more, Do you have a POE / whole home DVR filter on the input to the first splitter entering your home?


----------



## kozchris

Ok, so I'm messing around and I took an extra actiontec MOCA adapter and used it to get ethernet and supply it to one of the Minis. The other Mini is still connected to coax. I have one Mini watching live tv, the Roamio watching a recording, and the other Mini watching a netflix show. So far I am not seeing any issues. I'm going to let it run for a while yet. Would that mean I have a defective Mini?


----------



## fcfc2

kozchris said:


> Ok, so I'm messing around and I took an extra actiontec MOCA adapter and used it to get ethernet and supply it to one of the Minis. The other Mini is still connected to coax. I have one Mini watching live tv, the Roamio watching a recording, and the other Mini watching a netflix show. So far I am not seeing any issues. I'm going to let it run for a while yet. Would that mean I have a defective Mini?


Hi again,
It is possible that you have a marginal MoCA circuit on your one mini, but I think the more likely explaination is that the Actiontec MoCA adapter is just more powerful/ effective than the one builtin the mini. You can leave it as it is or try one or more of the prior recommendations regarding cabling/ splitters. OTA does not require a POE filter, but the filters are said to "enhance" or "reflect back" MoCA signals on the network and I have found them to do exactly that, i.e., improve the MoCA network. Your choice...


----------



## kozchris

I was about to call Tivo back up and tell them my mini wasn't working like I expected. Before I did that I figured I better connect the coax back up to my Mini and check the Moca signal strength. After I connected the Mini back to the coax I tested it out again and everything seemed to be magically working fine. Hopefully, this was just a glitch in the Matrix. I am baffled though and all these hours of debugging don't sit well with me. I hope I am good for a while. Thanks for all the suggestions.


----------



## chrishicks

I have a question and wasn't sure exactly what to look for with a search other than "leak" which wasn't it. I want to set up a MoCa connection and already have a POE filter installed at my main inlet. My question is, is there a way to test to make sure the signal isn't leaking back out into the Comcast lines beyond my house or is it just a wait and see if they contact you about it kind of thing? I've already had them here about a year ago due to a signal leakage when I was swapping out the outside splitter(a van was just randomly driving by at just that moment - go figure) and they were adamant about inspecting the issue and basically gave me roughly 2 days before they would cut off my service because of it. I don't want a repeat of that because it's hard to plan around an immediate 48 hour window if it ended up being the case this time around too.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

POE filters are plenty effective. Standard install equipment.


----------



## skrbrb

My MoCa setup, as installed by Comcast, is working fine, but I think I'm paying for something I don't need. Initially, Comcast put in a cable card in my Tivo Roamio Plus, a cable box, and a modem. I had to disconnect everything a few days ago to do some work on the cabinet all my electronic stuff is in, and when reconnecting it all, I discovered that the cable box (set top box) did nothing, everything worked fine without it, so I didn't reconnect it, and returned it to Comcast. My internet service is through AT&T, but Comcast installed their own modem and the MoCa adapter is connected to that, both coax and Ethernet. So I technically have internet/wifi on the Comcast modum, but don't use it, I use the AT&T modem, as always. So here's my real question: do I need the Comcast modem at all? Can't I just connect the MoCa adapter to my AT&T modem (Ethernet only)? My Tivo Roamio Plus is not in the same room as all my modems, computer, etc., so I can't connect Ethernet directly to it, thus the MoCa adapter.


----------



## jmpage2

skrbrb said:


> My MoCa setup, as installed by Comcast, is working fine, but I think I'm paying for something I don't need. Initially, Comcast put in a cable card in my Tivo Roamio Plus, a cable box, and a modem. I had to disconnect everything a few days ago to do some work on the cabinet all my electronic stuff is in, and when reconnecting it all, I discovered that the cable box (set top box) did nothing, everything worked fine without it, so I didn't reconnect it, and returned it to Comcast. My internet service is through AT&T, but Comcast installed their own modem and the MoCa adapter is connected to that, both coax and Ethernet. So I technically have internet/wifi on the Comcast modum, but don't use it, I use the AT&T modem, as always. So here's my real question: do I need the Comcast modem at all? Can't I just connect the MoCa adapter to my AT&T modem (Ethernet only)? My Tivo Roamio Plus is not in the same room as all my modems, computer, etc., so I can't connect Ethernet directly to it, thus the MoCa adapter.


So you use AT&T for Internet and have also been paying Comcast for Internet for the TiVo?


----------



## telemark

Yes, you would move the MoCA bridge's ethernet from the comcast side to the ATT side. Unplug the Comcast Cable Modem's power at the same time.

I don't think the Tivo will notice it needs a new DHCP address, but it does, so you'll have to poke the network settings, or just reboot the Tivo.

How fast is the ATT internet?


----------



## sheshechic

skrbrb said:


> My MoCa setup, as installed by Comcast, is working fine, but I think I'm paying for something I don't need. Initially, Comcast put in a cable card in my Tivo Roamio Plus, a cable box, and a modem. I had to disconnect everything a few days ago to do some work on the cabinet all my electronic stuff is in, and when reconnecting it all, I discovered that the cable box (set top box) did nothing, everything worked fine without it, so I didn't reconnect it, and returned it to Comcast. My internet service is through AT&T, but Comcast installed their own modem and the MoCa adapter is connected to that, both coax and Ethernet. So I technically have internet/wifi on the Comcast modum, but don't use it, I use the AT&T modem, as always. So here's my real question: do I need the Comcast modem at all? Can't I just connect the MoCa adapter to my AT&T modem (Ethernet only)? My Tivo Roamio Plus is not in the same room as all my modems, computer, etc., so I can't connect Ethernet directly to it, thus the MoCa adapter.


If AT&T is DSL then the MoCa adapter will not work with it. It works with internet over cable.


----------



## skrbrb

The AT&T service is two-wire (I think that's what they call it, but I'm sure that's not the correct technical name), not DSL. Will it work for the MoCa adapter?


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## jmpage2

skrbrb said:


> The AT&T service is two-wire (I think that's what they call it, but I'm sure that's not the correct technical name), not DSL. Will it work for the MoCa adapter?


2Wire is DSL.

If the 2Wire modem has Ethernet ports you should be able to get an Ethernet bridge and use that to connect from MoCA to Ethernet.

One wonders though why you are keeping the 2Wire service when you can get the faster more reliable Comcast service with a discount since it is bundled with your cable TV service.


----------



## skrbrb

I have had a history of really, really crappy service from Comcast, and only use them for TV because that's the only service compatible with Tivo, and have never had a problem with AT&T. Comcast once took over a week to get my internet service back up when it went down some years ago, and I worked from home, so I had AT&T out the next day to hook me up (DSL in those days), and when Comcast finally showed up, I just handed them their modem and said good bye. So maybe the easy answer here is that I will just go with Comcast for internet along with TV and keep just the phone (land line) with AT&T.


----------



## jmpage2

skrbrb said:


> I have had a history of really, really crappy service from Comcast, and only use them for TV because that's the only service compatible with Tivo, and have never had a problem with AT&T. Comcast once took over a week to get my internet service back up when it went down some years ago, and I worked from home, so I had AT&T out the next day to hook me up (DSL in those days), and when Comcast finally showed up, I just handed them their modem and said good bye. So maybe the easy answer here is that I will just go with Comcast for internet along with TV and keep just the phone (land line) with AT&T.


Get Ooma voice service for $100 a year and dump the overpriced AT&T phone service.


----------



## sheshechic

jmpage2 said:


> Get Ooma voice service for $100 a year and dump the overpriced AT&T phone service.


That's what I'm looking at now. We rarely use our landline so I don't think it would even cost us that much.


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## telemark

Ooma is iffy for fax, but fine for voice.
Comcast has gotten better than it used to be, but is probably region dependent in that regard.


----------



## skrbrb

Actually, what I have from AT&T is "U-verse® High Speed Internet Hsia45." Will this work with the MoCa adapter?


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## jmpage2

skrbrb said:


> Actually, what I have from AT&T is "U-verse® High Speed Internet Hsia45." Will this work with the MoCa adapter?


That just tells us what speed tier you have for your DSL service, it tells nothing about what kind of router, etc, AT&T is providing.

If your router has ethernet ports you can plug a PC into with an ethernet cable and get service there is no reason it should not work with MoCA if you use a MoCA -> Ethernet bridge to take the coaxial connection out of the wall and terminate it to ethernet which you plug into your AT&T router.

I still can't imagine that you are in your current situation as it has to be costing you a pretty penny to use two internet services in tandem and I have to imagine that using Comcast for your internet in conjunction with a voice over IP service like Ooma will be saving you hundreds of dollars a year if not a thousand or more.


----------



## break19

Swenny said:


> According to TiVo help, you need two. One to create the network and the other to connect the basic Roamio to the network. It's only a basic one remember https://www.tivo.com/my-account/how-to/how-connect-your-tivo-box-your-home-network#option2
> 
> Diagrams are attached in a couple places. And your setup is how I was trying to connect mine but for whatever reason it did not want to work
> 
> Noted


This is only the case if your Roamio is not connected to the ethernet network.

Here is my setup.

Roamio basic, connected via ethernet to a cable modem/router all-in-one that has built in moca, while my two minis are connected to coax that is on a 3way splitter, one to the cable modem, the other two to each mini.

If my cable modem did not have built in moca, I would instead have a moca adapter there, connected to the cable modem as well. My Roamio is a basic which does not have moca. If it did, due to my setup I would have to completely redo my setup, as I'm on an antenna. So my Roamio is connected to my antenna, and to my cable modem which is connected to the same coax network as my 2 minis.


----------



## break19

aaronwt said:


> I have run through half a dozen GigE switches and it has made no difference. Things are just as robust as going through one switch.


I had that setup at first, and was told my tivo customer service that was why I was having intermittant issues between my minis and my Roamio, so I moved them to moca and haven't had any problems since.


----------



## break19

kozchris said:


> I'm having a stuttering problem on my mini's I'm hoping someone has a good explanation for. I have a Roamio OTA, ActionTec MOCA adapter, 2 minis, and a Motorola SG6872AC MOCA /Cablemodem/router/hub.
> 
> My MOCA network is setup and if I connect a laptop to the Actiontec adapter next to my Roamio OTA and do a speedtest.net check I get 50M down 10M up. which is what Comcast says I should have. If I take the adapter and do the speed test at my Mini locations I get the same results. Those results would seem to indicate that I have an excellent network connection to the outside world over MOCA.
> 
> When I go to the Mini network status screens I can see PHY numbers in the 250+ range and -26db in the signal strength. Which I think indicates the MOCA network is fine as the Minis see it.
> 
> When I called Tivo support the person was telling me that I need to install a cable booster at the Roamio to fix the issues. I haven't bought into that solution yet. Does that even make sense? Aren't boosters 1 way, and bad to use in a MOCA environment?
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.


That's the same cable modem I have, and I do not need a moca adapter. I've got the antenna direct to the coax on Roamio, which is connected via ethernet directly to the modem, and the two minis connected are connected off a splitter shared by the cable modem and the 2 minis.

Done and done.


----------



## skrbrb

The modem from AT&T is Arris NVG589 and has Ethernet ports. I'm not sure what you mean by "take the coaxial connection out of the wall and terminate it to Ethernet." Do I connect the coax cable to the MoCa adapter, and the MoCa adapter Ethernet port to the modem?


----------



## telemark

skrbrb said:


> The modem from AT&T is Arris NVG589 and has Ethernet ports. I'm not sure what you mean by "take the coaxial connection out of the wall and terminate it to Ethernet." Do I connect the coax cable to the MoCa adapter, and the MoCa adapter Ethernet port to the modem?


My prior directions were complete.

Power down the Cable Modem.
Move the MoCA bridge's ethernet cable from the CableModem, to some ethernet port connected to the DSL/ATT-Uverse/2Wire Modem/router. yellow ports? Leave Coax connected between bridge and rest..
Check Tivo's network setting or Reboot Tivo. No ethernet here, just Coax.

You have extra ethernet ports from the DSL somewhere, ya?


----------



## sheshechic

skrbrb said:


> The modem from AT&T is Arris NVG589 and has Ethernet ports. I'm not sure what you mean by "take the coaxial connection out of the wall and terminate it to Ethernet." Do I connect the coax cable to the MoCa adapter, and the MoCa adapter Ethernet port to the modem?


The Arris NVG589 will not work with MoCa. Moca requires internet over cable.


----------



## telemark

sheshechic said:


> The Arris NVG589 will not work with MoCa. Moca requires internet over cable.


The DSL modem does not have MoCA built in.
Some Cable Modems have MoCA built in.
Some Tivo's have MoCA built in.

To create a MoCA network, you need two or more MoCA devices. For the household in question, that's fulfilled by:

The MoCA bridge
Tivo Pro/+

How the internet comes into the house doesn't matter as long as it's available on ethernet.


----------



## HarperVision

sheshechic said:


> The Arris NVG589 will not work with MoCa. Moca requires internet over cable.


No, moca "creates" internet over coax cable from an ethernet signal, as Telemark said. Use one Moca adapter to create it, then the other one to bring it back to ethernet if needed.


----------



## sheshechic

skrbrb said:


> The modem from AT&T is Arris NVG589 and has Ethernet ports. I'm not sure what you mean by "take the coaxial connection out of the wall and terminate it to Ethernet." Do I connect the coax cable to the MoCa adapter, and the MoCa adapter Ethernet port to the modem?


What Telemark is telling you is:

Ethernet out from the AT&T modem (or your router if you have one) needs to run into your Tivo plus
Remove the Comcast modem and/or moca adapter/bridge from the equation all together before you do this.

If your Tivo was not originally used to create the moca environment, then you'll need to go through setup again to tell the Plus to do so.


----------



## Random User 7

Let be technically correct. You don't "create" Internet for MoCa, you create IP over coax which is called MoCa.


----------



## break19

sheshechic said:


> The Arris NVG589 will not work with MoCa. Moca requires internet over cable.


Uhhhhh no. Moca is independent of your internet connection.

Sent from my LG-V410 using Tapatalk


----------



## sheshechic

Random User 7 said:


> Let be technically correct. You don't "create" Internet for MoCa, you create IP over coax which is called MoCa.


I didn't say that.


----------



## HarperVision

Random User 7 said:


> Let be technically correct. You don't "create" Internet for MoCa, you create IP over coax which is called MoCa.


So when you modulate a baseband audio signal onto an RF carrier signal, you're not "creating" a radio transmission? Same for TV? When you put all the separate cake ingredients together properly you're not "creating" a cake?


----------



## telemark

You just gave me the idea for OSI seven layer cake, but sadly everything already exists on the internet.


----------



## Random User 7

HarperVision said:


> So when you modulate a baseband audio signal onto an RF carrier signal, you're not "creating" a radio transmission? Same for TV? When you put all the separate cake ingredients together properly you're not "creating" a cake?


Yes, but you don't create Internet. Internet is not a protocol.


----------



## sheshechic

Random User 7 said:


> Yes, but you don't create Internet. Internet is not a protocol.


 But one does create the "environment".


----------



## HarperVision

Random User 7 said:


> Yes, but you don't create Internet. Internet is not a protocol.


I didn't say it only creates internet only, I said it creates "internet over coax cable", which it does, which is called "MoCA".



HarperVision said:


> No, *moca "creates" internet over coax cable* from an ethernet signal, as Telemark said. Use one Moca adapter to create it, then the other one to bring it back to ethernet if needed.


.........Which is basically EXACTLY what you said yourself!



Random User 7 said:


> Let be technically correct. You don't "create" Internet for MoCa, *you create IP over coax* which is called MoCa.


You called it "IP", I called it "internet" for understanding and simplicity's sake. Semantics.


----------



## Random User 7

Can you have Internet without IP?

Can you have IP without Internet?


----------



## HarperVision

Random User 7 said:


> Can you have Internet without IP? Can you have IP without Internet?


Thanks for proving my point. Isn't that pretty much what I just said?


----------



## krkaufman

Random User 7 said:


> Can you have Internet without IP?


Not today.​


Random User 7 said:


> Can you have IP without Internet?


Yes.

One could setup a network simply for communicating between devices, and this network could include Ethernet, Wi-Fi, Powerline and MoCA segments, all bridged together so devices with different physical networking technologies could all speak to each other, typically, nowadays, via IP addressing.

That said, one could conceivably build an isolated subdivision without any access roads to the outside world, but that'd be impractical in nearly all cases. You're likely gonna want/need that road to the world.​
MoCA isn't really any different from Wi-Fi or Powerline in that you'll need at least one MoCA-capable device to bridge between the MoCA physical segment and your Internet-connected physical segment (typically the Ethernet switch embedded within your gateway/router). Wi-Fi just seems simpler because so many gateways now have that wireless bridge built-in, rather than having to install a dedicated wireless access point wired to the router.


----------



## telemark

> Can you have Internet without IP?


Generally no, and IP stands for Internet Protocol. But IPv6 is an example of not-IP-as-we-know-it Internet. 
There also used to be gateways to put the Internet on non-IP networks. AOL used to work like that.
Old cell phone browsers too.



> Can you have IP without Internet?


This is very common, sometimes called a LAN or Intranet or just a broken router/modem on the fritz.



> Can you have internet without IP?


Perhaps, used to be more common and largely been replaced by _the_ Internet. This would be like a world wide network of airport reservation terminals.


----------



## Random User 7

Exactly the correct answers are No and Yes in that order. My point is that Internet and IP are not the same.


----------



## Random User 7

HarperVision said:


> Thanks for proving my point. Isn't that pretty much what I just said?


no idea since I'm not in a place to hear you.


----------



## HarperVision

HarperVision said:


> ....... You called it "IP", I called it "internet" for understanding and simplicity's sake. Semantics.


"*I*nternet" *P*rotocol


----------



## krkaufman

Random User 7 said:


> Let be technically correct. You don't "create" Internet for MoCa, you create IP over coax which is called MoCa.


Well, to be slightly more correct, IP isn't a requirement for MoCA, since MoCA is a physical layer implementation. MoCA adapters bridge one physical media type, typically wired Ethernet, to MoCA (coax).


----------



## Random User 7

HarperVision said:


> "*I*nternet" *P*rotocol


Exactly


----------



## MikeekiM

Without reading through this thread, is hooking up a TiVo Mini as simple as:

1. Hook up ethernet cable to TiVo Roamio Plus or Pro (with built in MoCA)
2. Enable MoCA on TiVo Roamio
3. Connect RG6 coax cable between TiVo Roamio and TiVo Mini
4. Task complete. Enjoy your TiVo Mini.

Is it as simple as that? All things being equal, is it better to connect my TiVo Mini via ethernet or MoCA (if both are reasonable options for me)?


----------



## telemark

If all options are available I would connect everything via Ethernet as it's impossible to miswire compared to MoCA which is easy enough to miswire as demonstrated in this example..


----------



## HarperVision

MikeekiM said:


> Without reading through this thread, is hooking up a TiVo Mini as simple as:
> 
> 1. Hook up ethernet cable to TiVo Roamio Plus or Pro (with built in MoCA)
> 2. Enable MoCA on TiVo Roamio
> *3. Connect Ethernet cable between TiVo Roamio and TiVo Mini *
> 4. Task complete. Enjoy your TiVo Mini.
> 
> Is it as simple as that? All things being equal, is it better to connect my TiVo Mini via ethernet or MoCA (if both are reasonable options for me)?


If you enable moca on the Roamio then you don't need to also hook up Ethernet between it and the mini, just your homes coax which now has the moca signal on it for both your mini's internet connection and it's connection to the Roamio as it's host for live and recorded MRV.


----------



## fcfc2

MikeekiM said:


> Without reading through this thread, is hooking up a TiVo Mini as simple as:
> 
> 1. Hook up ethernet cable to TiVo Roamio Plus or Pro (with built in MoCA)
> 2. Enable MoCA on TiVo Roamio
> 3. Connect Ethernet cable between TiVo Roamio and TiVo Mini
> 4. Task complete. Enjoy your TiVo Mini.
> 
> Is it as simple as that? All things being equal, is it better to connect my TiVo Mini via ethernet or MoCA (if both are reasonable options for me)?


Hi,
Just to clarify a bit, you will need internet to your Roamio, if you can use ethernet, then you must enable MoCA on both the Roamio and mini and you should be good. Your step 3 goes a bit south, there is not normally a direct connection by ethernet between the Roamio and mini. Normally everything is going through your router or switch, there is no direct ethernet connection between the Roamio and mini.
If you don't have ethernet available for your Roamio, then you will need a MoCA adapter for it and one more near your router / switch.


----------



## MikeekiM

MikeekiM said:


> Without reading through this thread, is hooking up a TiVo Mini as simple as:
> 
> 1. Hook up ethernet cable to TiVo Roamio Plus or Pro (with built in MoCA)
> 2. Enable MoCA on TiVo Roamio
> 3. Connect Ethernet cable between TiVo Roamio and TiVo Mini
> 4. Task complete. Enjoy your TiVo Mini.
> 
> Is it as simple as that? All things being equal, is it better to connect my TiVo Mini via ethernet or MoCA (if both are reasonable options for me)?





HarperVision said:


> If you enable moca on the Roamio then you don't need to also hook up Ethernet between it and the mini, just your homes coax which now has the moca signal on it for both your mini's internet connection and it's connection to the Roamio as it's host for live and recorded MRV.





fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> Just to clarify a bit, you will need internet to your Roamio, if you can use ethernet, then you must enable MoCA on both the Roamio and mini and you should be good. Your step 3 goes a bit south, there is not normally a direct connection by ethernet between the Roamio and mini. Normally everything is going through your router or switch, there is no direct ethernet connection between the Roamio and mini.
> If you don't have ethernet available for your Roamio, then you will need a MoCA adapter for it and one more near your router / switch.


Thanks! Oops... My step 3 should have been "Connect RG6 coax cable between TiVo Roamio and TiVo Mini.

I will go and correct my post now...

With that change, is it 100% accurate? Or am I missing some detail?

So here is my situation (just so you know my problem, so you can help me with a solution).

My Roamio will be in the Living Room. I have a wired switch in my Living Room where I will be "installing" my Roamio.

My TiVo Mini will be in the Master Bedroom. I don't have an ethernet cable behind the television set (or any where convenient).

HOWEVER, I do have an RG6 cable that runs from my Living Room to the back of my MBR television (I currently use it to connect my DirecTV Genie Mini to my Genie).

Will this same RG6 cable allow me to connect my TiVo Roamio and TiVo Mini? Or do I need to run more (or different) cables under my house?


----------



## fcfc2

MikeekiM said:


> Thanks! Oops... My step 3 should have been "Connect RG6 coax cable between TiVo Roamio and TiVo Mini.
> 
> I will go and correct my post now...
> 
> With that change, is it 100% accurate? Or am I missing some detail?
> 
> So here is my situation (just so you know my problem, so you can help me with a solution).
> 
> My Roamio will be in the Living Room. I have a wired switch in my Living Room where I will be "installing" my Roamio.
> 
> My TiVo Mini will be in the Master Bedroom. I don't have an ethernet cable behind the television set (or any where convenient).
> 
> HOWEVER, I do have an RG6 cable that runs from my Living Room to the back of my MBR television (I currently use it to connect my DirecTV Genie Mini to my Genie).
> 
> Will this same RG6 cable allow me to connect my TiVo Roamio and TiVo Mini? Or do I need to run more (or different) cables under my house?


Hi again,
Ethernet to your Roamio, MoCA adapter via coax and ethernet from adapter to router/ switch and enable MoCA on your mini....should be good.
EDIT: Don't forget to get filters, sometimes TWC will install / provide if you call.


----------



## aaronwt

telemark said:


> If all options are available I would connect everything via Ethernet as it's impossible to miswire compared to MoCA which is easy enough to miswire as demonstrated in this example..


Of course Ethernet is possible to miswire. I can't even count the number of places I've been to that had issues because of the wrong things plugged into Ethernet ports or devices being on the wrong Ethernet sub-net because the wrong cable was pluggeed in.


----------



## MikeekiM

fcfc2 said:


> Hi again,
> Ethernet to your Roamio, MoCA adapter via coax and ethernet from adapter to router/ switch and enable MoCA on your mini....should be good.
> EDIT: Don't forget to get filters, sometimes TWC will install / provide if you call.


Thanks for your reply... Sorry, but I am still slightly confused... Let me see if I can translate and repeat back and see if I have it right.

As I see it, there are two connections as follows:

Ethernet cable from router to Roamio Plus
Coax from Roamio Plus MoCA adapter (built in) to TiVo Mini MoCA adapter (built in)


----------



## fcfc2

MikeekiM said:


> Thanks for your reply... Sorry, but I am still slightly confused... Let me see if I can translate and repeat back and see if I have it right.
> 
> As I see it, there are two connections as follows:
> 
> Ethernet cable from router to Roamio Plus
> Coax from Roamio Plus MoCA adapter (built in) to TiVo Mini MoCA adapter (built in)


Hi, 
You have it right, I got confused.


----------



## HarperVision

fcfc2 said:


> Hi again, Ethernet to your Roamio, MoCA adapter via coax and ethernet from adapter to router/ switch and enable MoCA on your mini....should be good. EDIT: Don't forget to get filters, sometimes TWC will install / provide if you call.





MikeekiM said:


> Thanks for your reply... Sorry, but I am still slightly confused... Let me see if I can translate and repeat back and see if I have it right. As I see it, there are two connections as follows: [*]Ethernet cable from router to Roamio Plus [*]Coax from Roamio Plus MoCA adapter (built in) to TiVo Mini MoCA adapter (built in)


You have it correct Mike. You don't need a moca adapter. I'm not sure why fcfc2 mentioned needing one since you said you have an Ethernet switch behind your LR TV. That is unless that switch in your LR doesn't have Ethernet to it? I can't imagine it wouldn't.

Is your DirecTV system completely removed? It can mess up your cable and moca signals if you have deca and/or SWiM signals on those coax cables still.


----------



## HarperVision

fcfc2 said:


> Hi, You have it right, I got confused.


Ha, beat me to it!


----------



## MikeekiM

fcfc2 said:


> Hi again,
> Ethernet to your Roamio, MoCA adapter via coax and ethernet from adapter to router/ switch and enable MoCA on your mini....should be good.
> EDIT: Don't forget to get filters, sometimes TWC will install / provide if you call.





fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> You have it right, I got confused.


Thanks... In regards to the filters...

The Comcast installer put one MoCA filter at the cable drop box on the side of my house.

He explained that it was to prevent content from leaving my residence.

Is this the filter you speak of? Do I need anything else?


----------



## MikeekiM

HarperVision said:


> You have it correct Mike. You don't need a moca adapter. I'm not sure why fcfc2 mentioned needing one since you said you have an Ethernet switch behind your LR TV. That is unless that switch in your LR doesn't have Ethernet to it? I can't imagine it wouldn't.
> 
> Is your DirecTV system completely removed? It can mess up your cable and moca signals if you have deca and/SWiM signals on those coax cables still.


Thanks HarperVision!

No, my DirecTV is not removed yet... I don't have my Roamio hardware yet, so there are no issues...

The Comcast guy installed two of the Xfinity boxes (the Xi3 boxes), and I am using the Xfinity boxes first to see if it is adequate enough for me, or if I feel the need to switchover to a Roamio set-up...

My questions are simply preparation questions, in case I end up going that route...


----------



## HarperVision

MikeekiM said:


> Thanks HarperVision! No, my DirecTV is not removed yet... I don't have my Roamio hardware yet, so there are no issues... The Comcast guy installed two of the Xfinity boxes (the Xi3 boxes), and I am using the Xfinity boxes first to see if it is adequate enough for me, or if I feel the need to switchover to a Roamio set-up... My questions are simply preparation questions, in case I end up going that route...


OK no problem. We will see you in a month when you're back here asking about your brand new Roamio and minis, haha! 

XFinity boxes......I think I'm gonna hurl!!!


----------



## fcfc2

MikeekiM said:


> Thanks... In regards to the filters...
> 
> The Comcast installer put one MoCA filter at the cable drop box on the side of my house.
> 
> He explained that it was to prevent content from leaving my residence.
> 
> Is this the filter you speak of? Do I need anything else?


Hi,
I am pretty certain your xfinity system uses MoCA, so you should be fine when you switch over to Tivo. The only other filter issues would be possibly for the cable modem/gateway if you switch and one for the TA. If you keep Comcast's gateway, you won't need one for that, but some people have trouble with the MoCA interfering with the TA and need one on the input. 
I do know that Comcast charges for their modems/ gateways, at least $10 per month....there are some excellent substitutes that you will be able to pay off within 1 to 2 years max some within 6-7 months. You might try snagging another filter from Comcast when you return your equipment and pick up the cc and TA. If you need suggestions on modems/ routers ask.


----------



## HarperVision

FYI, Comcast usually doesn't employ Tuning Adapters, except in areas that they may have bought out where they already had them.


----------



## CharlesH

krkaufman said:


> That said, one could conceivably build an isolated subdivision without any access roads to the outside world, but that'd be impractical in nearly all cases. You're likely gonna want/need that road to the world.


Sounds like the situation with roads in Juneau, Alaska. There are no roads into or out of the capital city of Alaska. Only airplane or boat.


----------



## krkaufman

fcfc2 said:


> I am pretty certain your xfinity system uses MoCA, so you should be fine when you switch over to Tivo.


Your gateway (combo cable modem, NAT router, firewall, Wi-Fi access point) supplied by Comcast *likely* also has a built-in MoCA bridge, which you can verify by logging in to the gateway and looking for any MoCA settings/status. (My niece's place has one of the latest Comcast gateways, and their's has a MoCA setting, though it's currently disabled since they only have a single X1 DVR.)

IF your gateway has a built-in MoCA bridge, and should you opt to switch to a TiVo setup, you could possibly rely on the gateway's MoCA bridge rather than using your Roamio Plus/Pro as your Ethernet-to-MoCA bridging device. I'm not sure *what* will result if you try using the Roamio Plus/Pro as the bridge but still have the gateway's MoCA bridge enabled; probably wouldn't want to do that.


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> FYI, Comcast usually doesn't employ Tuning Adapters, except in areas that they may have bought out where they already had them.


This has been my experience, as well.


----------



## krkaufman

MikeekiM said:


> The Comcast guy installed two of the Xfinity boxes (the Xi3 boxes), and I am using the Xfinity boxes first to see if it is adequate enough for me, or if I feel the need to switchover to a Roamio set-up...


One thing I'd test w/ your Comcast X* setup is how many simultaneous on-demand sessions you can have among all your devices.

TiVo's addition of the Xfinity On Demand for TiVo app is great, especially with its integration with OnePass, but there are a couple drawbacks: 

You're allowed only a single on-demand session per DVR and its connected Minis, and a second viewer starting an on-demand video will cause a previous session to halt without any warning or explanation, to either user;
The XOD for TiVo app can be flaky, often failing to startup;


----------



## krkaufman

MikeekiM said:


> The Comcast guy installed two of the Xfinity boxes (the Xi3 boxes), and I am using the Xfinity boxes first to see if it is adequate enough for me,


It *does* seem, as fcfc2 stated, that your current eval Xfinity equipment setup is already using MoCA, and I expect that your combo gateway is providing the Ethernet-to-MoCA bridge; therefore, should you want to switch to TiVo, your setup could be as simple as:

connect coax* to Roamio Plus/Pro as TV signal source
connect Ethernet to Roamio Plus/Pro for Internet/networking connectivity
connect coax* to Mini for Internet/networking connectivity
Roamio Plus/Pro will NOT need MoCA enabled
Mini will need MoCA enabled

That said, if your switches aren't gigabit Ethernet, then it might be worthwhile putting the Roamio Plus/Pro onto the MoCA segment, in which case you'd:

connect coax* to Roamio Plus/Pro for TV signal source and Internet/networking connectivity
connect coax* to Mini for Internet/networking connectivity
Roamio Plus/Pro configured for MoCA connectivity only
Mini will need MoCA enabled

* This is the same coax run currently connecting to your Xi3 set-tops.


----------



## MikeekiM

krkaufman said:


> It *does* seem, as fcfc2 stated, that your current eval Xfinity equipment setup is already using MoCA, and I expect that your combo gateway is providing the Ethernet-to-MoCA bridge; therefore, should you want to switch to TiVo, your setup could be as simple as:
> 
> connect coax* to Roamio Plus/Pro as TV signal source
> connect Ethernet to Roamio Plus/Pro for Internet/networking connectivity
> connect coax* to Mini for Internet/networking connectivity
> Roamio Plus/Pro will NOT need MoCA enabled
> Mini will need MoCA enabled
> 
> That said, if your switches aren't gigabit Ethernet, then it might be worthwhile putting the Roamio Plus/Pro onto the MoCA segment, in which case you'd:
> 
> connect coax* to Roamio Plus/Pro for TV signal source and Internet/networking connectivity
> connect coax* to Mini for Internet/networking connectivity
> Roamio Plus/Pro configured for MoCA connectivity only
> Mini will need MoCA enabled
> 
> * This is the same coax run currently connecting to your Xi3 set-tops.


Interesting...

My Xfinity HD DVR in the living room (the main dvr receiver) is not connected to ethernet at all... Without an internet connection, can I assume that my X1 DVRs are simply on a separate MoCA LAN with no internet access, and that the MoCA LAN is dedicated to video traffic?


----------



## krkaufman

MikeekiM said:


> Interesting...
> 
> My Xfinity HD DVR in the living room (the main dvr receiver) is not connected to ethernet at all... Without an internet connection, *can I assume that my X1 DVRs are simply on a separate MoCA LAN with no internet access*, and that the MoCA LAN is dedicated to video traffic?


You could assume that. And you would be wrong.  

I'm glad to hear that's how you're seeing your Xfinity equipment connected, because it confirms fcfc2's assumption... that your Xfinity setup is connecting via MoCA -- which means that your Xfinity gateway device is providing your Ethernet/MoCA bridging.

From what you describe, your X1 DVRs are on a MoCA LAN, but that MoCA LAN is bridged with your Ethernet LAN via your Comcast-supplied gateway device, and your MoCA devices should have access to the Internet through this gateway.

Not having a similar setup I can't suggest any specific tests to verify that your X1 set-tops have Internet connectivity. Do they have any apps that would require Internet access? (Pandora? Spotify? **) And I suspect that you'd find they need to be networked via your gateway for your portable devices (iBlah, Android) to connect to them. (see Xfinity Apps)

edit: Another interesting article that you may want to look into: Comcast Lets X1 Subs Stream Live Video to Set-Tops

** This article indicates the X1 set-tops have a number of Internet-enabled apps, including "weather, stocks and traffic."


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> This article indicates the X1 set-tops have a number of Internet-enabled apps, including "weather, stocks and traffic."


Ohhhhhhh, now that sounds exciting!


----------



## MikeekiM

krkaufman said:


> You could assume that. And you would be wrong.
> 
> I'm glad to hear that's how you're seeing your Xfinity equipment connected, because it confirms fcfc2's assumption... that your Xfinity setup is connecting via MoCA -- which means that your Xfinity gateway device is providing your Ethernet/MoCA bridging.
> 
> From what you describe, your X1 DVRs are on a MoCA LAN, *but that MoCA LAN is bridged with your Ethernet LAN via your Comcast-supplied gateway device, and your MoCA devices should have access to the Internet through this gateway.*
> 
> Not having a similar setup I can't suggest any specific tests to verify that your X1 set-tops have Internet connectivity. Do they have any apps that would require Internet access? (Pandora? Spotify? **) And I suspect that you'd find they need to be networked via your gateway for your portable devices (iBlah, Android) to connect to them. (see Xfinity Apps)
> 
> edit: Another interesting article that you may want to look into: Comcast Lets X1 Subs Stream Live Video to Set-Tops
> 
> ** This article indicates the X1 set-tops have a number of Internet-enabled apps, including "weather, stocks and traffic."


Not sure if this matters, but I don't have a Comcast supplied gateway device... I have a simple Motorola Arris SB6141 cable modem...


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> Ohhhhhhh, now that sounds exciting!


heh, heh! yeah, I was suggesting them simply as apps that would allow him to test Internet connectivity from his MoCA-connected Comcast set-tops.


----------



## krkaufman

MikeekiM said:


> Not sure if this matters, but I don't have a Comcast supplied gateway device... I have a simple Motorola Arris SB6141 cable modem...


OOF!, punch to the metaphorical gut. Yeah, that pretty much kills my assumptions re: how your devices are connected and possibly networking, 'cause that modem isn't capable of MoCA bridging.

I'm really curious, now, whether your Xfinity set-tops have any Internet connectivity, and how well the Comcast mobile apps work with your setup. I'm also going to have to lookup what an "Xi3" is.

What router are you using between your modem and your home network? Were you offered a Comcast gateway but told them you wanted to roll your own modem/router setup?

edit: Here's an example of why I was hoping you were using a Comcast-supplied gateway: link. Built-in MoCA bridge. I remain curious as to the capabilities of your Xi3 devices in this arrangement.



MikeekiM said:


> My Xfinity HD DVR in the living room (the main dvr receiver) is not connected to ethernet at all... Without an internet connection, *can I assume that my X1 DVRs are simply on a separate MoCA LAN with no internet access*, and that the MoCA LAN is dedicated to video traffic?


That would seem to be a reasonable interpretation. Anyone who would suggest otherwise could appear foolish.


----------



## krkaufman

A bit of googling turned-up some posts (1,2) on the Comcast support forums related to the Xi3 and how it communicates. The posts link to a more detailed FAQ available on DSL Reports.

It sounds like your main DVR, an XG1(?), has a built-in cable modem that allows it to talk directly to the Internet, bypassing your home network. The Xi3 clients communicate with the Internet via the XG1, and this MoCA segment is isolated from your home LAN which is fed from your cable modem.

This sound right?

If so, what this means relative to the intent of your original post is that were you to switch to a TiVo solution from Xfinity X1 setup, you *would* need your Roamio Plus/Pro to provide the MoCA/Ethernet bridging function*, since your current gateway/router, which I would expect to remain once your Xfinity set-tops are removed, doesn't have this ability built-in. However, if the Roamio Plus/Pro needs to be located somewhere where you don't have an Ethernet cable available, you could use a MoCA adapter attached to your gateway/router's LAN ports to establish the MoCA bridge.

MoCA is working on your current cable plant, so a DIY MoCA network should be good to go, as well, once the Comcast set-tops are removed. (Though I suppose it's possible that the two MoCA networks could cohabitate, if they used different channel numbers. Not really pertinent to your case, though, since you'd be X1/Xi3 *or* TiVo.)


----------



## MikeekiM

krkaufman said:


> OOF!, punch to the metaphorical gut. Yeah, that pretty much kills my assumptions re: how your devices are connected and possibly networking, 'cause that modem isn't capable of MoCA bridging.
> 
> I'm really curious, now, whether your Xfinity set-tops have any Internet connectivity, and how well the Comcast mobile apps work with your setup. I'm also going to have to lookup what an "Xi3" is.
> 
> What router are you using between your modem and your home network? Were you offered a Comcast gateway but told them you wanted to roll your own modem/router setup?
> 
> edit: Here's an example of why I was hoping you were using a Comcast-supplied gateway: link. Built-in MoCA bridge. I remain curious as to the capabilities of your Xi3 devices in this arrangement.


I am using a very old Buffalo wireless-g router that I picked up back in 2007. I am currently shopping a new modem because I am learning that my current router is a bottleneck to my network speeds. The speed of my internet connection if I tap it straight from the modem is about 90mbps. When I measure my internet speeds from the wired ports on my router, 2 deliver about 40mbps, and the other 2 deliver 16mbps. My wireless connection sitting just 3 feet away from the router delivers about 3-5mbps. If you have a router recommendation, I am all ears... I currently have on order a TP-Link Archer C7 V2 that was HIGHLY recommended by Wirecutter. It's apparently a high performer AND a value play at only $81.00 at Amazon.

I was offered the Xfinity gateway, but I declined because I figured it was better to buy a modem for $80.00 and own it outright, than to rent their modem for $8-$10/month. The payback is clear with a breakeven of less than a year. I am also a bit of a purist...I am the guy who would gather buy an amp, pre-amp and tuner as separate audio components than buy an integrated receiver. Likewise, I like my modem to be separate from my routing device. Am I missing out on anything? Should I have gotten the integrated Xfinity gateway instead?

In regards to the Xi3, there is nothing on any of my Comcast devices that shows "Xi3" anywhere on the box chasis at all... The only reason I know I have an Xi3 is because the agent on the phone mentioned that I would probably get the latest boxes and mentioned the Xi3, and the installer told me the same. I hadn't realized until recently that the Xi3 is basically the equivalent of the TiVo Mini, and the main box is something else altogether (I originally thought that the Xi3 was the name of the broad group of components).



krkaufman said:


> That would seem to be a reasonable interpretation. Anyone who would suggest otherwise could appear foolish.


LOL... Love the response! No worries...it seemed obvious to me too, unless somehow the X1 DVR was able to somehow tap into the internet by itself, without the benefit of an ethernet cable connected to it.



krkaufman said:


> A bit of googling turned-up some posts (1,2) on the Comcast support forums related to the Xi3 and how it communicates. The posts link to a more detailed FAQ available on DSL Reports.
> 
> It sounds like your main DVR, an XG1(?), has a built-in cable modem that allows it to talk directly to the Internet, bypassing your home network. The Xi3 clients communicate with the Internet via the XG1, and this MoCA segment is isolated from your home LAN which is fed from your cable modem.
> 
> This sound right?
> 
> If so, what this means relative to the intent of your original post is that were you to switch to a TiVo solution from Xfinity X1 setup, you *would* need your Roamio Plus/Pro to provide the MoCA/Ethernet bridging function*, since your current gateway/router, which I would expect to remain once your Xfinity set-tops are removed, doesn't have this ability built-in. However, if the Roamio Plus/Pro needs to be located somewhere where you don't have an Ethernet cable available, you could use a MoCA adapter attached to your gateway/router's LAN ports to establish the MoCA bridge.
> 
> MoCA is working on your current cable plant, so a DIY MoCA network should be good to go, as well, once the Comcast set-tops are removed. (Though I suppose it's possible that the two MoCA networks could cohabitate, if they used different channel numbers. Not really pertinent to your case, though, since you'd be X1/Xi3 *or* TiVo.)


It does sound about right. If the X1 DVR had a built-in modem, it would explain how the device is able to tap into the cloud independent of my existing simple cable modem.

And it also makes sense that I would need to turn MoCA networking ON for the TiVo Roamio and feed it an internet connection via a connected ethernet cable. Internet would then be available to the main device, and to the TiVo mini via the MoCA coax connection. So again, two simple connections:

Ethernet between router/switch and TiVo Roamio
RG6 Coax between TiVo Roamio and TiVo Mini

Hey...one other thing... Thanks for the thorough and thoughtful responses... I appreciate you digging into this with me...


----------



## aaronwt

MikeekiM said:


> Interesting...
> 
> My Xfinity HD DVR in the living room (the main dvr receiver) is not connected to ethernet at all... Without an internet connection, can I assume that my X1 DVRs are simply on a separate MoCA LAN with no internet access, and that the MoCA LAN is dedicated to video traffic?


My parents X1 boxes use MoCA. And they have RF remotes too. The X1 should have it's own built in modem. I know my parents cable modem has nothing to do with the X1 accessing content. Since it is their own modem and even if it's not connected it has no effect on the X1.


----------



## HazelW

So if a Roameo creates a MOCA network, and you have an X1 connected, will the X1 provide the internet connectivity for the Roameo and any minis?


----------



## aaronwt

HazelW said:


> So if a Roameo creates a MOCA network, and you have an X1 connected, will the X1 provide the internet connectivity for the Roameo and any minis?


I would think the X1 system would need to use a different MoCA channel from what the TiVo Roamios would be using.


----------



## fcfc2

aaronwt said:


> I would think the X1 system would need to use a different MoCA channel from what the TiVo Roamios would be using.


Hi,
I thought the same thing but then I saw a post on DSLReports about a guy having trouble after setting his MoCA devices to use 1500 but after he returned them to the default, his MoCA devices started working fine....so I would try the default and adjust if it doesn't work right. Trial and error.


----------



## pkeegan

FWIW, here is my positive experience (so far) with Tivo + MoCA. I just successfully installed a MoCA network for a Tivo Mini and a Roamio Basic. I installed the MoCA adapter as a bridge between a Surfboard modem (SB 6121) and a Linksys WRT 54GS router. The Roamio Basic was directly connected to the router, so no MoCA adapter needed there. Charter is my provider and I have a Cisco Tuning Adapter connected to the Roamio using the RF-out, so there is no splitter there. I also installed a POE at the Charter cable entry point. 

So far, everything is working great. However, I've had problems with the Tuning Adapter in the past, so time will tell.

My thanks to the info in this thread to help me accomplish this.


----------



## krkaufman

pkeegan said:


> I installed the MoCA adapter as a bridge between a Surfboard modem (SB 6121) and a Linksys WRT 54GS router. ... Charter is my provider ...


I'm curious, what are your spec'd download/upload rates for Charter, and what are you seeing via a wired LAN connection? (I ask because my Linksys WRT54G router became a choke-point when Comcast bumped my speeds to 25+Mbps.)


----------



## TheBigDogs

HI,

The setup for use with tuning adapters absolutely does not work on the TWC network in San Diego. If it works in other places, great, but it does not work here!

After over 20 hours of effort in two weeks I just got an RMA # from TiVo for the actiontec boxes that I purchased. I've actually found that running a Cisco 1300AC bridge from my router to the Tivo works just fine and I've tested it two ways simultaneously and it works.

There is no breakup on streaming and typical download (transfer) time for 1 hour of 1080P video is about 8 minutes.

It's a shame that MoCA is a failure for me, but I have a working solution that I would recommend over MoCA 100% of the time. Might be best if you put a TWC disclaimer on your otherwise excellent piece of work.


----------



## fcfc2

TheBigDogs said:


> HI,
> 
> The setup for use with tuning adapters absolutely does not work on the TWC network in San Diego. If it works in other places, great, but it does not work here!
> 
> After over 20 hours of effort in two weeks I just got an RMA # from TiVo for the actiontec boxes that I purchased. I've actually found that running a Cisco 1300AC bridge from my router to the Tivo works just fine and I've tested it two ways simultaneously and it works.
> 
> There is no breakup on streaming and typical download (transfer) time for 1 hour of 1080P video is about 8 minutes.
> 
> It's a shame that MoCA is a failure for me, but I have a working solution that I would recommend over MoCA 100% of the time. Might be best if you put a TWC disclaimer on your otherwise excellent piece of work.


Hi,
I am glad you found a wireless solution which works for you but since MoCA is generally considered a superior networking method, perhaps you could share what your problem was with the splitter / filter combo for feeding the TA.
I am also pretty certain, that the exact method recommended is working fine for a whole lot of TWC customers including at least a few in San Diego.


----------



## TheBigDogs

I have no idea why it didn't work! I followed the diagrams shown for the MoCA adapter on my Premier and could not get an IP address when running "Network" setup on the Premier.

Please understand, I used the same equipment, less the TWC tuning adapters, on a Comcast network in my previous home and it worked wonderfully (Never thought I'd say something nice about Comcast).

The previous house listing included a reference for a high speed whole house network when we sold it so I had to buy new equipment for our new house. However, brand name, model number, etc. that didn't work on TWC and was a champ on Comcast.

The two Tivo units are the same and I initially just changed/added the right POE and splitters to run the network in the new house. This didn't work so I began looking for solutions and tried everything I could think of to get the tuning adapter into the mix and have MoCA running. 

The real problem is that MoCA needs to be plug and play for wide adoption. Given the size of this thread, I don't think MoCA is P&P ready.


----------



## aaronwt

Normally MoCA is plug and play. It was for me with my GigE Actiontec MoCA Bridge and my four Minis on MoCA.


----------



## pkeegan

krkaufman said:


> I'm curious, what are your spec'd download/upload rates for Charter, and what are you seeing via a wired LAN connection? (I ask because my Linksys WRT54G router became a choke-point when Comcast bumped my speeds to 25+Mbps.)


Hi krkaufman,

I have Charter Spectrum, which spec's download rates starting at 60 Mbps. I'm getting wired rates of 60Mbps down/4 Mbps up on average (just clocked it at 65.4/4.3). In wireless mode, I'm getting 10-15 Mbps down/4Mbps up on my iPad 2 (wifi model A1395). So, I don't see my WRT54G as being the bottleneck.

Peter


----------



## krkaufman

Ok, so... Does anyone have any thoughts on whether I could use FiOS' G1100 Quantum Gateway as a simple MoCA 2.0 bridge (disabling everything else on the device, except maybe Wi-Fi) ... with a "head-end" MoCA 2.0 bridge established by a Comcast/Cisco DPC3941T Gateway, supplied by Comcast?

There don't seem to be any MoCA 2.0 bridges on the market, so I'm wondering if this might be a backdoor to tapping MoCA 2.0 speeds ("up to 700Mbps"). And I'm asking, rather than simply testing, since the target network is my niece's place, where I don't have the luxury of fiddling.

Manuals...
Verizon FiOS/Greenwave G1100 Quantum Gateway (PDF)

Comcast/Cisco DPC3941T Voice Gateway (PDF)​
I'd be looking to do something similar to this post over on AVSforum (*image*), except replace the MoCA 1.1 WCB3000N with the MoCA 2.0 G1100.

Thanks for any feedback.


----------



## fcfc2

krkaufman said:


> Ok, so... Does anyone have any thoughts on whether I could use FiOS' G1100 Quantum Gateway as a simple MoCA 2.0 bridge (disabling everything else on the device, except maybe Wi-Fi) ... with a "head-end" MoCA 2.0 bridge established by a Comcast/Cisco DPC3941T Gateway, supplied by Comcast?
> 
> There don't seem to be any MoCA 2.0 bridges on the market, so I'm wondering if this might be a backdoor to tapping MoCA 2.0 speeds ("up to 700Mbps"). And I'm asking, rather than simply testing, since the target network is my niece's place, where I don't have the luxury of fiddling.
> 
> Manuals...
> Verizon FiOS/Greenwave G1100 Quantum Gateway (PDF)
> 
> Comcast/Cisco DPC3941T Voice Gateway (PDF)​
> I'd be looking to do something similar to this post over on AVSforum (*image*), except replace the MoCA 1.1 WCB3000N with the MoCA 2.0 G1100.
> 
> Thanks for any feedback.


Hi, I used a couple of G1100's in a similar fashion a while ago. The initial Verizon firmware had a bug? which caused extremely low wireless upload speed on the 2nd bridged G1100, then a firmware upgrade fixed that, but a second firmware upgrade borked it again. The bug only messed up the wireless upload speed, hard wired was ok. The speeds topped out in the 400Mbps range as I recall. By the way, this is an "unsupported" use of the G1100.
I also have been looking and hoping that either Netgear or Actiontec would start releasing their MoCA 2.0 adapters but emails to both simply say sorry not available to the public yet. It seems like they might be available to ISP's but I haven't seen any reports of them showing up in the field


----------



## krkaufman

Thanks for the feedback. (I had assumed that the 'fcfc2' I saw over in those forums was you, and was hoping to hear from you.)



fcfc2 said:


> Hi, I used a couple of G1100's in a similar fashion a while ago. The initial Verizon firmware had a bug? which caused extremely low wireless upload speed on the 2nd bridged G1100, then a firmware upgrade fixed that, but a second firmware upgrade borked it again. The bug only messed up the wireless upload speed, hard wired was ok. The speeds topped out in the 400Mbps range as I recall.


It's disappointing to hear that the wireless glitch persists. When you say "speeds topped out in the 400Mbps range," are you referring to the wired or wireless speed? I was originally looking into this solely for the wired speed bump, but upped my goals when I found this device supported AC.



fcfc2 said:


> By the way, this is an "unsupported" use of the G1100.


Oh, yeah, most definitely. I've seen it mentioned as an unsupported use for FiOS customers, so it's darn sure unsupported -- by anyone -- in a *Comcast Xfinity install*.

My main concern is whether the "WAN Coax" can be shutdown via the router's interface, to avoid any interference on the Comcast plant. I'm expecting, however irrationally, that the MoCA 2.0 certification means that bit should be good-to-go.



fcfc2 said:


> I also have been looking and hoping that either Netgear or Actiontec would start releasing their MoCA 2.0 adapters but emails to both simply say sorry not available to the public yet. It seems like they might be available to ISP's but I haven't seen any reports of them showing up in the field


Yep, I haven't found *anything* commercially available; though I haven't made the effort you have.


----------



## telemark

Regarding Plug and Play. If you believe the MoCA Alliance their field tests reported 90% - 97% outlets reach decent throughput. Flipped around, 3-10% required "minor remediation" but reached near 100% after that.

Caveat is they're professional installers.


----------



## krkaufman

Hmmm... I'm likely asking for extra trouble trying to get this FiOS device not to cause trouble with Comcast; so, perhaps I should look into sources for the Cisco DPC3939 or DPC3941T (comparison), and see if they can be similarly turned-down to just providing a MoCA 2.0 bridge.


----------



## fcfc2

krkaufman said:


> Thanks for the feedback. (I had assumed that the 'fcfc2' I saw over in those forums was you, and was hoping to hear from you.)
> 
> It's disappointing to hear that the wireless glitch persists. When you say "speeds topped out in the 400Mbps range," are you referring to the wired or wireless speed? I was originally looking into this solely for the wired speed bump, but upped my goals when I found this device supported AC.
> 
> Oh, yeah, most definitely. I've seen it mentioned as an unsupported use for FiOS customers, so it's darn sure unsupported -- by anyone -- in a *Comcast Xfinity install*.
> 
> My main concern is whether the "WAN Coax" can be shutdown via the router's interface, to avoid any interference on the Comcast plant. I'm expecting, however irrationally, that the MoCA 2.0 certification means that bit should be good-to-go.
> 
> Yep, I haven't found *anything* commercially available; though I haven't made the effort you have.


Hi,
I am the same guy from the Verizon forums. I don't think you would run into any issues with the Comcast MoCA WAN as you can and do disable MoCA WAN on the G1100 setup as the bridge. The speed I recalled was via the LAN ports. I was not really interested in extending the wireless at that time and I only recall getting the full speed for my 75/75 tier, actually 83/92 via wireless.
I am not familiar with either of the MoCA 2.0 gateways Comcast uses, so, I could only guess but you might snoop around in the settings to see what you can and cannot disable on those. 
I don't know what the deal is for not releasing the MoCA 2.0 extenders is unless they are being encouraged by the ISP's to only go with them. BrightHouse uses the older version of the actiontec units (MoCA 1.1) with their "ECHO" system which they claim is "exclusively" theirs?? Anyway if anyone sees any MoCA 2.0 extenders available via Retail, please spread the word.


----------



## krkaufman

Thanks, again, for the feedback.



fcfc2 said:


> The speed I recalled ("400Mbps range") was via the LAN ports.


Hmm, makes sense, given what I'm finding re: the specs...

*Comcast Rolls Out Speedier Wireless Gateway*
Last April, Comcast launched a Cisco-made 802.11n DOCSIS 3.0 gateway (DPC3939) with a 16x4 channel-bonding configuration that also supports MoCA 2.0, a technology that delivers in-home wireline throughputs of 400 Mbps in basic mode and up to 800 Mbps in the enhanced, turbo mode.

*MoCA 2.0 Specifications*
Baseline Mode
<400 Mbps MAC throughput​


fcfc2 said:


> I don't think you would run into any issues with the Comcast MoCA WAN as you can and do disable MoCA WAN on the G1100 setup as the bridge. ... I am not familiar with either of the MoCA 2.0 gateways Comcast uses, so, I could only guess but you might snoop around in the settings to see what you can and cannot disable on those.


Good to hear. May be worthwhile to give it a try, then, providing I can find a device at a discount.



fcfc2 said:


> I don't know what the deal is for not releasing the MoCA 2.0 extenders is unless they are being encouraged by the ISP's to only go with them. BrightHouse uses the older version of the actiontec units (MoCA 1.1) with their "ECHO" system which they claim is "exclusively" theirs?? Anyway *if anyone sees any MoCA 2.0 extenders available via Retail, please spread the word.*


What he said!!

edit: Updated MoCA 2.0 data rate limits


----------



## krkaufman

fcfc2 said:


> Anyway if anyone sees any MoCA 2.0 extenders available via Retail, please spread the word.


This device is just MoCA 1.1, but having been educated that its LAN ports are, in fact, Gigabit Ethernet, and it being on sale for $60 at MicroCenter, I'm grabbing one and foregoing the MoCA 2.0 plan until another time.

Actiontec ECB3500T01 - Multi-band MoCA Network Adapter

On sale for $60 at MicroCenter, for in-store pickup only

Note that it has no wireless functionality, and, also, that the specs on Actiontec's web page are wrong, which I confirmed via email:


> Actiontec Support Teams response is:
> =========================
> Totally apologize for all the confusion. There is an error on our website, the ports are in fact Gigabit ports. We contacted the engineering department to clarify this, and yes, the ports are gigabit auto negotiating ports.
> =========================


----------



## aaronwt

krkaufman said:


> This device is just MoCA 1.1, but having been educated that its LAN ports are, in fact, Gigabit Ethernet, and it being on sale for $60 at MicroCenter, I'm grabbing one and foregoing the MoCA 2.0 plan until another time.
> 
> Actiontec ECB3500T01 - Multi-band MoCA Network Adapter
> 
> On sale for $60 at MicroCenter, for in-store pickup only
> 
> Note that it has no wireless functionality, and, also, that the specs on Actiontec's web page are wrong, which I confirmed via email:


That is what I got last year. It works great with my Minis. As long as you don't expect true GigE speeds from the built in switch then it will work fine.

When I got mine my intention was to use the GigE switch in place of my Dlink GigE switch. But the Actiontec built in GigE switch maxes out at around 600Mb/s. My Dlink GigE switches will max out the GigE connection. So instead of being able to connect my KMTTG PC to the Actiontec, I still need to go through my Dlink Switch. And the Actiontec is only used to provide internet access and stream content to my four Minis over MoCA.


----------



## gwiley

So, I've connected everything using Option #2 (way back at the beginning of this thread!)  

It gives a 'tip' that you can plug a network device into the back of the TiVo and that device will piggy-back off the TiVo's MoCA network connection.

The device I tried was a blu-ray player, but it will not obtain a DHCP address, hence, not hop on the network.

Is there a 'trick' to get this to work? The TiVo is on the MoCA network and is functioning properly. 

Oh, and can I do the same thing with a TiVo Mini? (piggy-back off the network port once it's connected via MoCA)


Thanks in advance!


----------



## Random User 7

Don't know about the first question since you using Option 2 it should work. No to doing the same thing for Minis.


----------



## HarperVision

Try setting up a static IP on your Bluray and see if that makes it work.


----------



## aaronwt

gwiley said:


> So, I've connected everything using Option #2 (way back at the beginning of this thread!)
> 
> It gives a 'tip' that you can plug a network device into the back of the TiVo and that device will piggy-back off the TiVo's MoCA network connection.
> 
> The device I tried was a blu-ray player, but it will not obtain a DHCP address, hence, not hop on the network.
> 
> Is there a 'trick' to get this to work? The TiVo is on the MoCA network and is functioning properly.
> 
> Oh, and can I do the same thing with a TiVo Mini? (piggy-back off the network port once it's connected via MoCA)
> 
> Thanks in advance!


This worked when I connected a Roamio Basic to the Ethernet port. And I think I had tried it with a switch and with a Premiere and the BAsic. But it's been awhile so I'm not 100% sure about the switch.


----------



## krkaufman

gwiley said:


> It gives a 'tip' that you can plug a network device into the back of the TiVo and that device will piggy-back off the TiVo's MoCA network connection.


How did you setup your TiVo's network connection? Did you just say "Connect using MoCA"? I'm *guessing* that you'd need to select "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" to enable the MoCA bridge feature.












gwiley said:


> Oh, and can I do the same thing with a TiVo Mini? (piggy-back off the network port once it's connected via MoCA)


Definitely not; the Mini only has MoCA connectivity, not bridging. (Unfortunate; makes me curious how much more it would've cost to include bridging.)


----------



## gwiley

No, did the same way the Option #2 says, 'Select MoCA from the menu option", in other words, Connect using Moca. The TiVo isn't near the cable modem, it's downstairs in the Living Room, the cable modem/router/MoCA adapter is upstairs.


----------



## krkaufman

gwiley said:


> No, did the same way the Option #2 says, 'Select MoCA from the menu option", in other words, Connect using Moca. The TiVo isn't near the cable modem, it's downstairs in the Living Room, the cable modem/router/MoCA adapter is upstairs.


Understood. Couldn't hurt to give it a try -- so long as no one is trying to use the MoCA network during the attempt.


----------



## krkaufman

gwiley said:


> No, did the same way the Option #2 says, 'Select MoCA from the menu option", in other words, *Connect using Moca.* The TiVo isn't near the cable modem, it's downstairs in the Living Room, the cable modem/router/MoCA adapter is upstairs.


The reason I'm suggesting this is because you're looking to more than just "Connect using MoCA" -- that's what a Mini can do. You're looking to bridge the MoCA segment over to the Roamio's(?) Ethernet port -- and I'm suggesting that, though the wording seems incompatible, using the other MoCA option, "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" may simply enable the MoCA-to-Ethernet bridging capability, allowing your Blu-ray player access.

Again, it won't do any permanent damage to try it, unless the S.O. is in the middle of streaming content on a Mini when you tweak the MoCA connectivity.


----------



## krkaufman

gwiley said:


> No, did the same way the Option #2 says, 'Select MoCA from the menu option", in other words, Connect using Moca.


The "tip" to which you referred would seem to indicate the "Connect using MoCA" option should be sufficient, since it doesn't mention modifying the MoCA mode.



BigJimOutlaw said:


> *Pro Tip:*
> 
> Using MoCA setup option #2? Connect your Smart TV, Blu-ray player, Roku, or other device to the Tivo DVR's Ethernet port! Those devices can daisy chain off your Tivo's MoCA connection. _(If you want to connect multiple devices, you can get a cheap Ethernet hub and plug it into the Tivo's port too.)_


----------



## krkaufman

aaronwt said:


> krkaufman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actiontec ECB3500T01 - Multi-band MoCA Network Adapter
> 
> 
> 
> That is what I got last year. It works great with my Minis. As long as you don't expect true GigE speeds from the built in switch then it will work fine.
> 
> When I got mine my intention was to use the GigE switch in place of my Dlink GigE switch. But the Actiontec built in GigE switch maxes out at around 600Mb/s.
Click to expand...

I ran some tests the other day b/w a couple laptops w/ GigE NICs connected through the ECB3500T, and jPerf was reporting around 890Mbps 5-second averages*, and this was while a Mini direct-connected via the coax IN was streaming off its host DVR.

Just reporting the test; I wouldn't argue w/ the suggestion that you'd want an "actual" GigE switch if you were looking for the best possible performance between switch ports, rather than just trying to improve each port's performance relative to the MoCA link.

(* 1s intervals bounced from low 800s to mid 900s)


----------



## krkaufman

gwiley said:


> No, did the same way the Option #2 says, 'Select MoCA from the menu option", in other words, Connect using Moca. The TiVo isn't near the cable modem, it's downstairs in the Living Room, the cable modem/router/MoCA adapter is upstairs.


Feel free to test my suggestion out, but this thread from a while back, and specifically this post from BigJimOutlaw, indicates the Roamio Plus/Pro should bridge traffic from their Ethernet port to the MoCA segment simply configured as MoCA clients -- that is, configured with the "Connect using MoCA" setting.

That thread may help w/ your troubleshooting.


----------



## aaronwt

krkaufman said:


> I ran some tests the other day b/w a couple laptops w/ GigE NICs connected through the ECB3500T, and jPerf was reporting around 890Mbps 5-second averages*, and this was while a Mini direct-connected via the coax IN was streaming off its host DVR.
> 
> Just reporting the test; I wouldn't argue w/ the suggestion that you'd want an "actual" GigE switch if you were looking for the best possible performance between switch ports, rather than just trying to improve each port's performance relative to the MoCA link.
> 
> (* 1s intervals bounced from low 800s to mid 900s)


I never saw anything close to that with several devices sending content to a PC. If I had I probably wouldn't have gone back to my other switches. I didn't spend a lot of time with it either. I just saw that I didn't get the same speeds as my Dlink switches so I just ended up using the Actiontec with my four Minis and had it provide access to my network for them.


----------



## MikeekiM

I am assuming that after injecting internet access into your MoCA network, that there is an adapter out there that convert a coax termination back to an ethernet termination so that I can have a wired ethernet connection to a computer or other internet appliance.

Am I assuming right?


----------



## Random User 7

MikeekiM said:


> I am assuming that after injecting internet access into your MoCA network, that there is an adapter out there that convert a coax termination back to an ethernet termination so that I can have a wired ethernet connection to a computer or other internet appliance.
> 
> Am I assuming right?


Yes, that is called a MoCa adapter.


----------



## krkaufman

Random User 7 said:


> Yes, that is called a MoCa adapter.


What he said. Note, also, that you could connect the Ethernet port from this "far-end" MoCA adapter to an Ethernet switch in order to provide network access to multiple devices; another option often employed is connecting a wireless access point, to provide both additonal wired access at the location and to extend the range of your home's wireless signal.

Wired Gigabit Ethernet would still be generally preferred, but MoCA 1.1 can provide a reliable connection where coax is available.


----------



## muteant

Normally I can easily wrap my head around this sort of thing, but for some reason I'm mired in self-doubt despite the superbly-written OP and would appreciate some feedback on my understanding of what must be done to create a MoCA network at my house.

In my living room, I have a TiVo Roamio (not plus nor pro) hooked up via ethernet to my wireless router (which is obviously connected to my cable modem via coax). Add to that setup a tuning adapter. I would like to set up the TiVo Mini I recently purchased in a separate bedroom. My router AFAICT does not have any MoCA capability. 

So here's my best guess: I need to procure ONE MoCA adapter. I would then split the coax from the outlet, and connect both the tuning adapter and the MoCA adapter to the splitter. I would then connect the tuning adapter to the Roamio via USB. Next, I would connect the MoCA adapter to the cable modem via coaxial, and maintain the ethernet connection from the modem to the router. I would also have to (for some reason) connect via ethernet one of the router's LAN ports to the MoCA adapter's ethernet port. I could then simply connect my TiVo Mini to the coaxial outlet in the bedroom of my choosing. 

Am I overlooking or misinterpreting anything? Any thoughts would be very much appreciated.


----------



## MikeekiM

So think of it this way... Your Roamio has the capability of establishing a MoCA network...

All this means is that it takes the network connectivity that you fed it with the ethernet cable and "injects" and extends your network into your coax cable.

When you connect your mini to the same coax cabling, it is able to contact both the Roamio and the internet via the coax because you've "injected" and extended the network into the coax. Now your coax is just an extension of your LAN and WAN.

You can even buy an adapter and connect it to a coax termination and hook convert to ethernet to power a notebook...

Now here is the dangerous part... Because the coax likely is connected to the rest of your neighborhood, you need to install a MoCA filter at the point of entry into your home. Otherwise, you risk exposing your network to the rest of your neighborhood...


----------



## Random User 7

muteant said:


> Normally I can easily wrap my head around this sort of thing, but for some reason I'm mired in self-doubt despite the superbly-written OP and would appreciate some feedback on my understanding of what must be done to create a MoCA network at my house.
> 
> In my living room, I have a TiVo Roamio (not plus nor pro) hooked up via ethernet to my wireless router (which is obviously connected to my cable modem via coax). Add to that setup a tuning adapter. I would like to set up the TiVo Mini I recently purchased in a separate bedroom. My router AFAICT does not have any MoCA capability.
> 
> So here's my best guess: I need to procure ONE MoCA adapter. I would then split the coax from the outlet, and connect both the tuning adapter and the MoCA adapter to the splitter. I would then connect the tuning adapter to the Roamio via USB. Next, I would connect the MoCA adapter to the cable modem via coaxial, and maintain the ethernet connection from the modem to the router. I would also have to (for some reason) connect via ethernet one of the router's LAN ports to the MoCA adapter's ethernet port. I could then simply connect my TiVo Mini to the coaxial outlet in the bedroom of my choosing.
> 
> Am I overlooking or misinterpreting anything? Any thoughts would be very much appreciated.


MoCa adapter connects via Ethernet to your router. The cable from the MoCa adapter connects to your Mini. You're done.



MikeekiM said:


> So think of it this way... Your Roamio has the capability of establishing a MoCA network...


Roamio basic cannot do that. POE filter is a good idea. Add that and then you are done.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

muteant said:


> So here's my best guess: I need to procure ONE MoCA adapter. I would then split the coax from the outlet, and connect both the tuning adapter and the MoCA adapter to the splitter. I would then connect the tuning adapter to the Roamio via USB. Next, I would connect the MoCA adapter to the cable modem via coaxial, and maintain the ethernet connection from the modem to the router. I would also have to (for some reason) connect via ethernet one of the router's LAN ports to the MoCA adapter's ethernet port. I could then simply connect my TiVo Mini to the coaxial outlet in the bedroom of my choosing.


You would connect the moca adapter at your modem and router.

1. Wall coax > moca adapter > cable modem (all are coax connections)
2. Connect moca adapter ethernet to a LAN socket on router.

The Roamio connection doesn't change:

1. Wall coax > POE Filter recommended > Tuning Adapter (coax and USB cable) > Tivo
2. Ethernet from router to Roamio


----------



## muteant

Random User 7 said:


> MoCa adapter connects via Ethernet to your router. The cable from the MoCa adapter connects to your Mini. You're done.


Thanks for the reply. Are you saying here that i need two MoCA adapters, one for the router and one for the Tivo Mini in a different room?


----------



## MikeekiM

Because there is no built-in MoCA adapter on the basic Roamio, you will need to buy a MoCA adapter for the Roamio only.

A MoCA adapter is already built-in to the Mini.


----------



## muteant

thank you to everyone for the clarification!


----------



## Random User 7

muteant said:


> Thanks for the reply. Are you saying here that i need two MoCA adapters, one for the router and one for the Tivo Mini in a different room?


No, it (the Roamio) is already on Ethernet. You don't need it to be on MoCa.


----------



## krkaufman

muteant said:


> In my living room, I have a TiVo Roamio (not plus nor pro) hooked up via ethernet to my wireless router (which is obviously connected to my cable modem via coax).





MikeekiM said:


> So think of it this way... *Your Roamio has the capability of establishing a MoCA network...*


It does not, being a base Roamio only. (i.e. as the OP says, not a Plus or Pro)



MikeekiM said:


> Because there is no built-in MoCA adapter on the basic Roamio, you will need to buy a MoCA adapter for the Roamio only.


No, he can leave his Roamio connected as-is, via Ethernet to his router. He *will* need to buy a single MoCA adapter, however, but he will use it to create the MoCA network by connecting it to both the coax plant and an Ethernet port on his router. If all goes well, his Mini should then be able to connect using its built-in MoCA connectivity.


----------



## krkaufman

muteant said:


> So here's my best guess: I need to procure ONE MoCA adapter. I would then split the coax from the outlet, and connect both the tuning adapter and the MoCA adapter to the splitter. I would then connect the tuning adapter to the Roamio via USB. Next, I would connect the MoCA adapter to the cable modem via coaxial, and maintain the ethernet connection from the modem to the router. I would also have to (for some reason) connect via ethernet one of the router's LAN ports to the MoCA adapter's ethernet port. I could then simply connect my TiVo Mini to the coaxial outlet in the bedroom of my choosing.


If I'm reading this correctly, that's a pretty darn good guess. No call for self-doubt at all.

You seem to have left out connecting the coaxial cable to the Roamio, but I'm assuming that was an oversight. And your Roamio would remain connected via wired Ethernet to your router.

The only other gotchas would be installing a MoCA PoE (Point of Entry) filter, on the input to your home's main splitter (i.e. the splitter from which all your cable runs emanate), and verifying that all your splitters support at least 5-1000Mhz frequency range.


----------



## MikeekiM

krkaufman said:


> No, he can leave his Roamio connected as-is, via Ethernet to his router. He *will* need to buy a single MoCA adapter, however, but he will use it to create the MoCA network by connecting it to both the coax plant and an Ethernet port on his router. If all goes well, his Mini should then be able to connect using its built-in MoCA connectivity.


Ah...that makes sense... I am glad someone knows what they are talking about!


----------



## Wolverine10

Hi all, I think I am having a similar situation as someone above. Hopefully you guys can help me out. Just got my Roamio Pro setup. Internet connection through Ethernet cable. Everything is great there.

My mini is 2 floors up. No ethernet connection available. 

-I tried to use MoCA (created a MoCA network through the Roamio), but the Mini couldn't find the MoCA network that I setup. I think the problem there is that the coax coming into the second floor is split from the main line (outside). One line goes to the second floor (bedrooms) and the other line into the basement (cable modem, router, roamio...etc). 

So do I need a MoCA adapter somewhere in this configuration to get my mini to join the MoCA network?

Thanks!


----------



## Wolverine10

Hi all, I think I am having a similar situation as someone above. Hopefully you guys can help me out. Just got my Roamio Pro setup. Internet connection through Ethernet cable. Everything is great there.

My mini is 2 floors up. No ethernet connection available. 

-I tried to use MoCA (created a MoCA network through the Roamio), but the Mini couldn't find the MoCA network that I setup. I think the problem there is that the coax coming into the second floor is split from the main line (outside). One line goes to the second floor (bedrooms) and the other line into the basement (cable modem, router, roamio...etc). 

So do I need a MoCA adapter somewhere in this configuration to get my mini to join the MoCA network?

Thanks!


----------



## fcfc2

Wolverine10 said:


> Hi all, I think I am having a similar situation as someone above. Hopefully you guys can help me out. Just got my Roamio Pro setup. Internet connection through Ethernet cable. Everything is great there.
> 
> My mini is 2 floors up. No ethernet connection available.
> 
> -I tried to use MoCA (created a MoCA network through the Roamio), but the Mini couldn't find the MoCA network that I setup. I think the problem there is that the coax coming into the second floor is split from the main line (outside). One line goes to the second floor (bedrooms) and the other line into the basement (cable modem, router, roamio...etc).
> 
> So do I need a MoCA adapter somewhere in this configuration to get my mini to join the MoCA network?
> 
> Thanks!


Hi,
Assuming you have a continuous connection for both your Roamio and your mini, i.e., the coax traces back to a common splitter, usually in a box on the outside of the home, in the attic, or basement, you should be able to make a MoCA network. Your Roamio needs either an ethernet connection, or a MoCA adapter connected by ethernet to your router. You also should have a POE / Whole Home DVR filter on the input to the first splitter. This secures your network and provides a slightly stronger MoCA signal.
The most common problems with MoCA are standard amplifiers, or poor quality cabling or splitters. Make sure all coax ports and unused wall jacks are terminated with 75 ohm terminators, about $4 for 10 at many hardware stores. If problems persist, consider upgrading your splitters to MoCA rated ones, they usually will say so on their label and cover from 5-1675 MGz.


----------



## Wolverine10

These are the splitters that are in my house and they seem to be the correct ones needed:
http://www.amazon.com/Premium-Coaxi...&qid=1437667862&sr=1-3&keywords=moca+splitter

I do have an amp in the basement where that line comes in, but I am not sure what kind it is. Is there something on it that would tell me if it is MoCA compatible?

How would I know if the terminators on my cable lines are 75 ohms?

The wall plate (coax cable) that I am using the in the bedroom to connect the cable to is a cheap radioshack connection, would that make any difference? Or should I get something specific for that also?

Thanks!


----------



## fcfc2

Wolverine10 said:


> These are the splitters that are in my house and they seem to be the correct ones needed:
> http://www.amazon.com/Premium-Coaxi...&qid=1437667862&sr=1-3&keywords=moca+splitter
> 
> I do have an amp in the basement where that line comes in, but I am not sure what kind it is. Is there something on it that would tell me if it is MoCA compatible?
> 
> How would I know if the terminators on my cable lines are 75 ohms?
> 
> The wall plate (coax cable) that I am using the in the bedroom to connect the cable to is a cheap radioshack connection, would that make any difference? Or should I get something specific for that also?
> Edit: Assume that as long as the terminators have a center conductor they are ok, no center conductor, not ok. If you have a one in and one out amp, just try a POE filter on the output before the splitter. The cheapest place for filters is Ebay.
> 
> Thanks!


The splitters are not MoCA rated but should be ok. The most likely cause of an issue is the amplifier, unless it specifically identifies or has something on the label which mentions MoCA, assume it is not and will block the MoCA signal. If it is a one in and one out before a splitter it might be ok to use it but, if it is a multi-output type, it will have to be replaced, assuming you need an amp. As a test, try temporarily just bypass the amp and then check your MoCA setup. I would concentrate on trouble shooting the amp, it is unlikely that anything else is causing the problem.
Edit: Assume that as long as the terminators have a center conductor they are ok, no center conductor, not ok. If you have a one in and one out amp, just try a POE filter on the output before the splitter. The cheapest place for filters is Ebay.


----------



## krkaufman

Wolverine10 said:


> I do have an amp in the basement where that line comes in, but I am not sure what kind it is. Is there something on it that would tell me if it is MoCA compatible?


Can you identify its manufacturer and model number? If so, post back w/ that info.

Also, as BigJimOutlaw mentioned in the other thread, can you describe how your coax amp and splitters are connected? Even a hand drawing would be helpful.

(Your splitters, as reported, are not ideal but should be sufficient for MoCA.)


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

If the amp is really needed, if it can be moved to the input side of the main splitter (where it generally should be), that would fix the moca signal blockage.


----------



## Wolverine10

Thanks all for the info.
I will try your suggestions with bypassing the amp for a test. I think I have a couple old lines anyways that I need to get rid of and may be able to get everything down to just a couple splitters instead of going through the amp at all.

I will post back with the amp info when I get home.

I am still unsure of how to tell if my cable lines are those 75 ohm versions. I looked online for pics of different versions but they all seem to be the same looking to me. They were install by the cable guys so I would assume they are...but we are dealing with comcast so who knows...


----------



## Wolverine10

fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> Assuming you have a continuous connection for both your Roamio and your mini, i.e., the coax traces back to a common splitter, usually in a box on the outside of the home, in the attic, or basement, you should be able to make a MoCA network. Your Roamio needs either an ethernet connection, or a MoCA adapter connected by ethernet to your router. You also should have a POE / Whole Home DVR filter on the input to the first splitter. This secures your network and provides a slightly stronger MoCA signal.
> The most common problems with MoCA are standard amplifiers, or poor quality cabling or splitters. Make sure all coax ports and unused wall jacks are terminated with 75 ohm terminators, about $4 for 10 at many hardware stores. If problems persist, consider upgrading your splitters to MoCA rated ones, they usually will say so on their label and cover from 5-1675 MGz.





BigJimOutlaw said:


> If the amp is really needed, if it can be moved to the input side of the main splitter (where it generally should be), that would fix the moca signal blockage.


Actually the amp is inside of the main splitter. It is in the basement right before a lines go into the tivo, cable modem and small cablebox (PiP use)

Basically the lines are as follows:
-Main splitter (outside)
-One line goes to the basement which feeds the amp, then after the amp it goes to the components mentioned above
-Second line goes to the attic, where there is a splitter to go to the different bedrooms, where the tivo mini is.

Hope that gives you a little perspective of my setup.

I did notice that the cable coming from the wall into the Mini was not like the others (thinner more flimsy), so will switch that out with something else I have.

Thanks again!


----------



## fcfc2

"Hope that gives you a little perspective of my setup."
Yes, but we need a little more....are there several out ports on your amplifier or just one?


----------



## Wolverine10

fcfc2 said:


> "Hope that gives you a little perspective of my setup."
> Yes, but we need a little more....are there several out ports on your amplifier or just one?


There are definitely more than one. Probably at least 4 outputs to one input. I think this is the amp that is installed (my wife sent me a pic and it looks like this one):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/111706423264?lpid=82&chn=ps
CommScope amp.


----------



## HarperVision

Wolverine10 said:


> ........I am still unsure of how to tell if my cable lines are those 75 ohm versions. I looked online for pics of different versions but they all seem to be the same looking to me. They were install by the cable guys so I would assume they are...but we are dealing with comcast so who knows...


All cable TV RF video lines are at 75 ohms, whether they're using RG59 or RG6. The difference between them is the bandwidth/frequencies they can carry, not the impedance rating. Old rg59 was good enough for the old analog systems but the newer digital ones needed more bandwidth so they went to RG6 in the home. They're both rated at 75 ohms impedance.


----------



## krkaufman

The 75 ohm impedance issue has gone a bit astray, from this original comment by fcfc2...



fcfc2 said:


> The most common problems with MoCA are standard amplifiers, or poor quality cabling or splitters. *Make sure all coax ports and unused wall jacks are terminated with 75 ohm terminators*, about $4 for 10 at many hardware stores. If problems persist, consider upgrading your splitters to MoCA rated ones, they usually will say so on their label and cover from 5-1675 MGz.


He was referring to terminating any unused coax ports with the *little screw-on F-type terminator caps*, to reduce noise insertion.

You could also disconnect any unused lines from your cable plant and terminate the now-open ports -- or downsize your splitters to just the number of ports needed, to improve signal strength.


----------



## Wolverine10

Thanks all! just finished bypassing the amp with the main line. I setup the MoCA network and my TiVo Mini found the network and is now setting up!!
Thanks so much for the help!

I ordered the POE filter from Amazon, should be here by Saturday. My only question about that is how vulnerable is my home network until I get the filter? 

Thanks again!


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> The 75 ohm impedance issue has gone a bit astray, from this original comment by fcfc2... He was referring to terminating any unused coax ports with the little screw-on F-type terminator caps, to reduce noise insertion. You could also disconnect any unused lines from your cable plant and terminate the now-open ports -- or downsize your splitters to just the number of ports needed, to improve signal strength.


I understood that, but I wanted to clear up some misconceptions he had to make sure if he saw any rg59 instead of rg6 then it should be replaced as it could also cause issues with moca.


----------



## fcfc2

Wolverine10 said:


> Thanks all! just finished bypassing the amp with the main line. I setup the MoCA network and my TiVo Mini found the network and is now setting up!!
> Thanks so much for the help!
> 
> I ordered the POE filter from Amazon, should be here by Saturday. My only question about that is how vulnerable is my home network until I get the filter?
> 
> Thanks again!


Hi again,
Glad you got it sorted out, if you discover that you need amplification a single port bidirectional standard amp can be used if place on the main line and a POE filter and splitter follow, otherwise there are MoCA rated amplifiers. 
A word of caution though, there are a couple guys selling Commscope multiport amps on Ebay and they claim they are MoCA compatible for cheap, but they are not in fact MoCA units and will block or severely degrade the MoCA signal. The problem is compounded because the manufacturer, Commscope, lists 2 different items with exactly the same model number one is MoCA friendly and has a small yellow label which says MoCA on it. The other is a MoCA killer, you have that one.
PS. You are probably safe with the MoCA network until your filter arrives, but it is good to use one anyway as it will give your MoCA signal a slight boost.
Terminators: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-QTY-Pack...121?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4fc7f519
Filters: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-MoCA-PPC-...400?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a59b1da0
True MoCA Amp: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-PCT-VC-...867?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c96cf01eb


----------



## Wolverine10

fcfc2 said:


> Hi again,
> Glad you got it sorted out, if you discover that you need amplification a single port bidirectional standard amp can be used if place on the main line and a POE filter and splitter follow, otherwise there are MoCA rated amplifiers.
> A word of caution though, there are a couple guys selling Commscope multiport amps on Ebay and they claim they are MoCA compatible for cheap, but they are not in fact MoCA units and will block or severely degrade the MoCA signal. The problem is compounded because the manufacturer, Commscope, lists 2 different items with exactly the same model number one is MoCA friendly and has a small yellow label which says MoCA on it. The other is a MoCA killer, you have that one.
> PS. You are probably safe with the MoCA network until your filter arrives, but it is good to use one anyway as it will give your MoCA signal a slight boost.
> Terminators: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-QTY-Pack...121?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4fc7f519
> Filters: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-MoCA-PPC-...400?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a59b1da0
> True MoCA Amp: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-PCT-VC-...867?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c96cf01eb


Thanks for the info. Right now the signal (not going through the amp) looks great and the mini seems to be working perfectly. I think comcast just added the amp "just because" they are told to instead of using multiple splitters...I will be moving to FIOS in the fall so may be back on this thread asking more questions. But for now, I am good to go!

Thanks again!


----------



## dmband

Confused and looking for clarification please.

I have fios so my router is moca ready I believe.
My setup is this...
A tan cable (that looks like a thick phone cable) comes out of the floor and goes into a little white box.
That box has a Ethernet cable that connects to the router.
The router also has a coax cable connected to it that comes out of the floor too

If I buy a roamio basic and mini, do I need a moca adapter at the router and/or the tivo/mini?
Do I need a Ethernet connection to the tivo/mini? (There is no way I can run Ethernet to the tivo)

OR

Can I just hook the tivo/mini to coax and be done with it?


----------



## krkaufman

dmband said:


> I have fios so my router is moca ready I believe.


Let's assume that's the case...



dmband said:


> My setup is this...
> 
> A tan cable (that looks like a thick phone cable) comes out of the floor and goes into a little white box.
> That box has a Ethernet cable that connects to the router.
> The router also has a coax cable connected to it that comes out of the floor too


... especially since your connections seem to indicate it is so.



dmband said:


> If I buy a roamio basic and mini, do I need a moca adapter at the router and/or the tivo/mini? Do I need a Ethernet connection to the tivo/mini? (There is no way I can run Ethernet to the tivo) Can I just hook the tivo/mini to coax and be done with it?


Assuming your FiOS router has created your MoCA network, you will only need to buy a single MoCA adapter *IF* you cannot run Ethernet to wherever your new Roamio basic will be installed. The base Roamio, unlike the Plus, Pro and Mini, has NO built-in MoCA capabilities, and so must rely on a separate MoCA adapter if a direct Ethernet connection is not available.

---
edit: See TiVo's support page detailing how to connect to your home network, specifically under *Option 2: Join an existing MoCA network :: TiVo Roamio* (be sure to review the associated image)


----------



## fcfc2

dmband said:


> Confused and looking for clarification please.
> 
> I have fios so my router is moca ready I believe.
> My setup is this...
> A tan cable (that looks like a thick phone cable) comes out of the floor and goes into a little white box.
> That box has a Ethernet cable that connects to the router.
> The router also has a coax cable connected to it that comes out of the floor too
> 
> If I buy a roamio basic and mini, do I need a moca adapter at the router and/or the tivo/mini?
> Do I need a Ethernet connection to the tivo/mini? (There is no way I can run Ethernet to the tivo)
> 
> OR
> 
> Can I just hook the tivo/mini to coax and be done with it?


Hi, if you cannot get ethernet to your Roamio Basic, you will have to purchase one MoCA adapter and connect it near by your Roamio. Most would just use a 2 way splitter, one leg to Roamio and one to the adapter. Then make your ethernet connection from the adapter to your Roamio and you should be good if you are using one of Verizon's routers which have MoCA builtin. If you don't use Verizon's router then you will need a 2nd MoCA adapter to connect to your router. The mini has it's own built in.


----------



## MikeekiM

Can one TiVo Mini gracefully coexist with two Roamios on the same MoCA network and get to the content of both receivers intuitively (meaning, does it have high WAF - wife acceptance factor)?

With the great OTA deal, I am considering throwing a second receiver in the mix with my current Roamio/Mini setup... Are all three able to co-exist with high WAF?


----------



## aaronwt

MikeekiM said:


> Can one TiVo Mini gracefully coexist with two Roamios on the same MoCA network and get to the content of both receivers intuitively (meaning, does it have high WAF - wife acceptance factor)?
> 
> With the great OTA deal, I am considering throwing a second receiver in the mix with my current Roamio/Mini setup... Are all three able to co-exist with high WAF?


It only takes a few seconds to switch hosts for the mini. But there are several button presses/menu changes involved.

I don't think it's a big deal but it might be for someone else.

But the only reason to switch hosts is to watch live tv on the mini. You can see and play the recordings from the host TiVo and other TiVos on the network (with the same Media Access Key) without switching hosts.


----------



## MikeekiM

aaronwt said:


> It only takes a few seconds to switch hosts for the mini. But there are several button presses/menu changes involved.
> 
> I don't think it's a big deal but it might be for someone else.
> 
> But the only reason to switch hosts is to watch live tv on the mini. You can see and play the recordings from the host TiVo and other TiVos on the network (with the same Media Access Key) without switching hosts.


So let me get this straight... If I have two Roamios, the mini aggregates the recorded content from both devices and shows them all to me under "My Shows"?

And the only reason I would want to switch hosts is if I care about whether I am grabbing a tuner from one machine or the other (which I am not sure I ever care about)...

Do I have that right?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The "Host" Roamio's programs will be shown in My Shows by default.

The other Roamio will appear at the bottom of My Shows (or under 'Devices', depending on whether or not you're using the Left column view.) Select it, and you'll see what's on that box.


----------



## chiguy50

My step-daughter just moved into a new home in Hiram, GA, which she is renting. I got her a TiVo Roamio Basic (TCD846500) as a housewarming gift and set it up for her in tandem with her Comcast X1. (She has the HD Preferred Xf Bundle package with a TEC tc8305c gateway and the Pace PX013ANM (X1) DVR.) We got the CableCARD provisioned and paired successfully and everything seems to be operating correctly. If she (and her family) decide that they like it, they will presumably turn in their Comcast DVR and HD STB.

I connected the Roamio to the tc8305c via ethernet cat5 and noticed that the X1 was only wired via coax. (I don't believe that she has an active MoCA network through the tc8305c so the X1 must be communicating wirelessly.) If she wants to get a TiVo Mini for one of the bedrooms (where there is no ethernet connection available), then I believe we could swap out the X1 for an XB3 (model no. DPS3939, TC8706c, DPC3941t, or TC8717) which I understand has a built-in MoCA bridge. Once the MoCA networking is enabled in the Comcast gateway, and with the Roamio connected to the gateway via ethernet, my understanding is that the TiVo Mini client (which is MoCA-enabled) should be able to communicate with the Roamio (which itself is not MoCA-enabled) over MoCA.


Did I get this right? I have no personal experience with MoCA, but I believe I understand the basics.


How difficult is it to set up the MoCA network on the Comcast XB3 gateway? Should she plan to call in to Comcast technical assistance to accomplish it or is it something she can easily do herself?


Any advice/assistance will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## krkaufman

> swap out the (TC8305C) for an XB3 ... which I understand has a built-in MoCA bridge. Once the MoCA networking is enabled in the Comcast gateway, and with the Roamio connected to the gateway via ethernet, my understanding is that the TiVo Mini client (which is MoCA-enabled) should be able to communicate with the Roamio (which itself is not MoCA-enabled) ...
> 
> Did I get this right?


Completely, theoretically. And at least this post indicates it should work. (edit: another post indicating success enabling MoCA on XB2/3 gateways)

However, I haven't tested this and can't say whether Comcast allows the customer to enable that XB3 feature, or whether the XB3's MoCA network would cause a problem for the MoCA-enabled X1 DVR on the same coax plant. It *should* work, especially if the X1 DVR is removed from the configuration, since the MoCA 2.0 certification indicates compatibility w/ the Mini.



> How difficult is it to set up the MoCA network on the Comcast XB3 gateway?


It should be relatively easy, just a tweak of a setting on the gateway -- with improved chances for overall success since her home is already MoCA-ready, given the prior X1 DVR install.

She should be able to do/test it herself, so long as she can replace the gateway and then log in to it to modify the MoCA setting.


----------



## idabe

I'd appreciate any help! Just got a new roamio basic and TiVo mini to replace an older hd box. Really looking forward to multi room capability but can't get it set up. 

I have a fios router in upstairs spare room (not close to roamio setup in lr.) Hooked up mini in another upstairs bedroom. Mini located moca network, connected to TiVo service, and updated. I then set up the roamio downstairs with a moca bridge (from TiVo). Set it up per diagram: coax from wall to adapter, coax out from adapter to roamio, and Ethernet connected between adapter and roamio. 

After that set up, there is no option on the roamio to connect to a moca network. There is only wireless or Ethernet. If I try to connect via Ethernet it fail. I'm unable to connect to the TiVo service and the mini upstairs cannot connect to the roamio for content. 

Any ideas?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

idabe said:


> After that set up, there is no option on the roamio to connect to a moca network. There is only wireless or Ethernet. If I try to connect via Ethernet it fail. I'm unable to connect to the TiVo service and the mini upstairs cannot connect to the roamio for content.
> 
> Any ideas?


Setting it to ethernet is correct. The base Roamio doesn't have any moca options. As far as it knows, it's connected by ethernet (which it technically is).

It sounds like the coax line to the Mini is working fine, so there's something questionable about the line going to the Roamio. The problem is either the moca adapter, a wonky splitter (most likely), or an amp if you have one on the line somewhere.

The first thing I would try is replace the splitter(s) leading to the Roamio's line. Use one rated for at least 1GHz (1000 MHz).


----------



## idabe

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Setting it to ethernet is correct. The base Roamio doesn't have any moca options. As far as it knows, it's connected by ethernet (which it technically is).
> 
> It sounds like the coax line to the Mini is working fine, so there's something questionable about the line going to the Roamio. The problem is either the moca adapter, a wonky splitter (most likely), or an amp if you have one on the line somewhere.
> 
> The first thing I would try doing is replace the splitter somewhere on the coax lines that links the two boxes. Use a splitter rated for at least 1GHz (1000 MHz).


Thanks for the quick response. I'll try that first thing in the am. All the coax in the house is new though. Just installed less than 2 years ago. I don't think any amps on the line but I'll check that too. Glad to hear about the Ethernet option on the roamio. I wish this process were a bit more seamless. It's not obvious to a casual user.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

idabe said:


> Thanks for the quick response. I'll try that first thing in the am. All the coax in the house is new though. Just installed less than 2 years ago. I don't think any amps on the line but I'll check that too. Glad to hear about the Ethernet option on the roamio. I wish this process were a bit more seamless. It's not obvious to a casual user.


If you'd like to troubleshoot the moca adapter, you could move it to the Mini's location and connect the Mini to it, and select ethernet on the Mini.

If it still connects, the adapter is working. If not, that could be a sign of a bad adapter.


----------



## krkaufman

BigJimOutlaw said:


> If you'd like to troubleshoot the moca adapter, you could move it to the Mini's location and connect the Mini to it, and select ethernet on the Mini.
> 
> If it still connects, the adapter is working. If not, that could be a sign of a bad adapter.


Good suggestion. Likewise, the Mini could be moved to the problem location and see if it can still connect via MoCA as it can in the other upstairs bedroom.


----------



## idabe

Good suggestions. I will try. TiVo sent us several adapters which we don't need because the fios already has a moca network. We checked the splitters this morning-- all said "moca" on them.

I'm wondering if there could be an issue with the way the cables are split? The line coming into the house splits into 3 lines. Then one of those splits 2 or 3 times again. Could that make a difference? If it matters we can make a diagram of it.


----------



## idabe

krkaufman said:


> Good suggestion. Likewise, the Mini could be moved to the problem location and see if it can still connect via MoCA as it can in the other upstairs bedroom.


We changed out the adapter on the roamio and got the same error message. We moved the mini downstairs and it connect to the moca network. We moved the roamio upstairs, but it still couldn't connect to the mini. It will connect to the Ethernet network and sometimes seems to be connected to Internet but it won't connect to TiVo service or stream any content.

Does this seem like a problem with the roamio box (it was refurbished but connects to wireless network just fine) or more like a wiring issue?

Thanks again for all your help.


----------



## idabe

Good news! We don't know how or why but everything started working when we put the mini back upstairs and the roamio back downstairs. They started seeing each other and all appears to be working now. Fingers crossed it stays working. Thanks for your help!


----------



## HarperVision

Great to hear it's working!

For any future readers, another troubleshooting thing to try for things like this so to try changing the moca frequency/channel that's being transmitted. Each frequency reacts differently down its transmission path, in this case your coax wiring and splitters, etc. One frequency may have an issues traversing it nicely due to things like VSWR, harmonics, noise, EMI, etc., while another one could be more robust in that environment.


----------



## krkaufman

An FYI... I just came across my first retail MoCA 2.0 adapters on eBay, the Actiontec ECB6000 -- which then clued me in to the ECB6200, as well.

*ECB6000:*
Product Data Sheet

Commentary

MoCA 2.0 Certification

Actiontec Online Store
ebay
Beach Audio
Amazon (3rd parties)
AntOnline
Provantage​
*ECB6200:*
Product Data Sheet

MoCA 2.0 Certification ??

ebay
Amazon (3rd parties)
Amazon (3rd parties) -- for 2-pack
AntOnline
Provantage​
-----
edit: p.s. If anyone is a redditor, feel free to let the OP in the above 'Commentary' know that he was getting the spec'd rates for MoCA 2.0. As often happens, he appears to have been confusing the spec'd "PHY" rates w/ effective/throughput speed.


----------



## fcfc2

krkaufman said:


> An FYI... I just came across my first retail MoCA 2.0 adapters on eBay, the Actiontec ECB6000 -- which then clued me in to the ECB6200, as well.
> 
> *ECB6000:*
> Product Data Sheet
> 
> Commentary
> 
> MoCA 2.0 Certification
> 
> Actiontec Online Store
> ebay
> Beach Audio
> Amazon (3rd parties)
> AntOnline
> Provantage​
> *ECB6200:*
> Product Data Sheet
> 
> MoCA 2.0 Certification ??
> 
> ebay
> Amazon (3rd parties)
> Amazon (3rd parties) -- for 2-pack
> AntOnline
> Provantage​
> -----
> edit: p.s. If anyone is a redditor, feel free to let the OP in the above 'Commentary' know that he was getting the spec'd rates for MoCA 2.0. As often happens, he appears to have been confusing the spec'd "PHY" rates w/ effective/throughput speed.


Hi,
Thanks for this post, but I would suggest the news deserves it's own thread as quite a few have been waiting for MoCA 2.0 devices for....years.


----------



## krkaufman

fcfc2 said:


> Thanks for this post, but I would suggest the news deserves it's own thread as quite a few have been waiting for MoCA 2.0 devices for....years.


Any suggestion as to the most appropriate forum for the topic? There doesn't seem to be a forum for "Supporting Technologies."


----------



## fcfc2

krkaufman said:


> Any suggestion as to the most appropriate forum for the topic? There doesn't seem to be a forum for "Supporting Technologies."


Hi,
I would try it in the most frequented form....the Roamios, I think.


----------



## HarperVision

fcfc2 said:


> Hi, I would try it in the most frequented form....the Roamios, I think.


I'm actually thinking the Coffee House Forum because Minis, Premieres and Roamios can use MoCA.


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> I'm actually thinking the Coffee House Forum because Minis, Premieres and Roamios can use MoCA.


Chuckle. Had to read it twice.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> Chuckle. Had to read it twice.


Haha, I didn't even mean it that way when I wrote it, so I had to read YOUR reply twice to get what YOU were saying!!!

Coffee House.......MoCA.......got it!


----------



## ferky1

I recently ordered a Roamio Plus to replace a Series 3, and I would like to also buy 2 minis to replace 2 Xfinity digital boxes. I have no way to get ethernet to the Roamio or the minis, so I'd like to try this MoCA thing. Attached is a diagram that I tried to make to show my setup (hope it's legible). From what I've read, it is a problem that my cable modem is behind 2 splitters. Can anyone take a look and let me know what hardware I need to get this to work (if it matters, others have noted that my SB6141 modem has a MoCA filter).


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

ferky1 said:


> I recently ordered a Roamio Plus to replace a Series 3, and I would like to also buy 2 minis to replace 2 Xfinity digital boxes. I have no way to get ethernet to the Roamio or the minis, so I'd like to try this MoCA thing. Attached is a diagram that I tried to make to show my setup (hope it's legible). From what I've read, it is a problem that my cable modem is behind 2 splitters. Can anyone take a look and let me know what hardware I need to get this to work (if it matters, others have noted that my SB6141 modem has a MoCA filter).


On paper the potential problem is the amp. Aside from it possibly blocking the moca signal from reaching your Tivos, it might actually be unnecessary with the new setup. If it's really needed, it should be placed on the input side of the main splitter.

Besides examining that, you need 1 moca adapter to connect to the cable modem/router as shown in the picture in the first post. Things _should_ just work. If the amp isn't placed at the point of entry, a POE filter should be to keep the moca signal inside your home.


----------



## krkaufman

BigJimOutlaw said:


> On paper the potential problem is the amp. Aside from it possibly blocking the moca signal from reaching your Tivos, it might actually be unnecessary with the new setup. If it's really needed, it should be placed on the input side of the main splitter.
> 
> Besides examining that, you need 1 moca adapter to connect to the cable modem/router as shown in the picture in the first post. Things _should_ just work. If the amp isn't placed at the point of entry, a POE filter should be to keep the moca signal inside your home.


What ^BigJimOutlaw^ said.

Also, aside from your point-of-entry (PoE) -- the input to the main 3-way splitter -- you may also need a MoCA filter on the input to your VOIP modem. Something to keep in mind if your phone service starts getting hinky post-MoCA.

As for connecting the MoCA adapter BJO referenced, to create your MoCA network to which the Roamio & Minis will connect, you can try connecting it per the TiVo recommendation (as pictured in the OP) or split the coax to avoid having to connect the modem to the MoCA adapter's pass-through. If you go with the latter, you could use an additional 2-way splitter, or replace the 2-way splitter in your diagram w/ a 3-way.


----------



## krkaufman

ferky1 said:


> I recently ordered a Roamio Plus to replace a Series 3, and I would like to also buy 2 minis to replace 2 Xfinity digital boxes. I have no way to get ethernet to the Roamio or the minis, so I'd like to try this MoCA thing. Attached is a diagram ...


Looking at your diagram, my first thought would be to install, at least temporarily, the Roamio Plus in the same room w/ your modem/router. You can get it initialized and running, OnePasses setup, etc, and start assessing the platform.

This would also allow you to use either the Plus or MoCA adapter to create the MoCA network, and use one or more Minis to test your MoCA connectivity at target locations. Once any potential MoCA roadblocks are removed and you've decided to stick w/ the Plus, you can move it to its permanent location.


----------



## Peter G

Ferry,

You can cleanup all your connections and also replace the amp and add MoCA filter all with a single device. Use the 8 way MoCA bypass amp from PCT international. 

Use the modem port on the amp to the VOIP modem and any other port for the cable modem. You may need an additional MoCA filter before the cable modem but otherwise no added hardware. MoCA network will be created by the Plus and mini's are MoCA ready.

Peter G


----------



## ferky1

BigJimOutlaw said:


> On paper the potential problem is the amp. Aside from it possibly blocking the moca signal from reaching your Tivos, it might actually be unnecessary with the new setup. If it's really needed, it should be placed on the input side of the main splitter.
> 
> Besides examining that, you need 1 moca adapter to connect to the cable modem/router as shown in the picture in the first post. Things _should_ just work. If the amp isn't placed at the point of entry, a POE filter should be to keep the moca signal inside your home.





krkaufman said:


> What ^BigJimOutlaw^ said.
> 
> Also, aside from your point-of-entry (PoE) -- the input to the main 3-way splitter -- you may also need a MoCA filter on the input to your VOIP modem. Something to keep in mind if your phone service starts getting hinky post-MoCA.


BigJim/krkaufman -

If it was determined that the amp was necessary when everything was wired initially, why wouldn't it still be necessary to boost the signal to the 4 way splitter? I wouldn't think that a MoCA network would change the need for the signal boost.

If I moved the amp to be between the main feed and the 3 way splitter (I assume that's what you mean by "input side of main splitter"), couldn't that mess up the signals going to my VOIP and cable modems? I thought the amp needed to be separate from the lines going to the modems.


----------



## ferky1

Peter G said:


> Ferry,
> 
> You can cleanup all your connections and also replace the amp and add MoCA filter all with a single device. Use the 8 way MoCA bypass amp from PCT international.
> 
> Use the modem port on the amp to the VOIP modem and any other port for the cable modem. You may need an additional MoCA filter before the cable modem but otherwise no added hardware. MoCA network will be created by the Plus and mini's are MoCA ready.
> 
> Peter G


Is this what you are suggesting? This would replace the MoCA adapter that I need to buy, amp, 3 way splitter and 4 way splitter?
http://www.pctstore.com/RF_amplifier_9_port_amplifier_PCT_VCF_18A_p/pctvcf18aupin.htm


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The need for the amp *might* change since the Minis on the line won't need a TV signal. They'd be getting their signal over the moca network generated in the home, and the splitters could be tweaked so that the DVR and basic cable TV get a higher priority (more TV signal strength) than the Minis.

In any event, moving the amp to the point of entry would likely work and save some money, but you could also keep it at the same location but replace it with a 4-port moca-friendly amp similar to the one you found (same website). Peter G is mistaken, you'll still need a moca adapter connected to the router/modem, and ideally a POE filter at the point of entry.


----------



## krkaufman

Peter G said:


> You may need an additional MoCA filter before the cable modem but otherwise no added hardware. MoCA network will be created by the Plus and mini's are MoCA ready.


ferky's Plus won't be able to create the MoCA network because it won't have access to Ethernet at its intended permanent location.

As for the MoCA filter for the modem, ferky's SB6141 has a MoCA filter built-in, so he shouldn't have to worry about that, at least. Just the MoCA filter for his PoE.



Peter G said:


> You can cleanup all your connections and also replace the amp and add MoCA filter all with a single device. Use the 8 way MoCA bypass amp from PCT international.
> 
> Use the modem port on the amp to the VOIP modem and any other port for the cable modem.





ferky1 said:


> Is this what you are suggesting? This would replace the MoCA adapter that I need to buy, amp, 3 way splitter and 4 way splitter?
> http://www.pctstore.com/RF_amplifier_9_port_amplifier_PCT_VCF_18A_p/pctvcf18aupin.htm


That amp definitely won't eliminate your need for a MoCA adapter (to create your MoCA network). The amp is just "MoCA friendly," by not blocking the MoCA frequencies; it doesn't create a MoCA network.

Being able to cleanup the connections is dependent on where those splitters currently sit, right? (Can't discern that from the diagram.) If the main splitter (3-way) and 4-way splitter are near each other, yeah, you *could* cleanup the install using the 8-way amp -- *IF* the amp is needed. I defer to BJO's responses on this front.


----------



## Peter G

Ferky,

Yes, although I used their model PCT-VC-F19A "Unity Gain". As noted by BigJim the MoCA signal is strong so does not need much amplification. That model has an active return.

http://www.pctstore.com/Unity_Gain_MoCA_Bypass_Amplifier_PCT_VC_F19A_p/pctvcf19a.htm

PCT-VC-9U has passive return.

Not sure if passive or active return is best choice.

Also I stand corrected - one MoCA adapter is needed in a location that can connect to internet via Ethernet. If the TiVo plus cannot you need a separate one.

These amps may be a good choice as the VOIP modem connection bypasses any amps so remains active in case of power outage. So your phone will not be affected by this device.

Also 4 way version are available depending if they fit your needs better.

Peter G


----------



## fcfc2

Hi guys,
Regarding amps, I discovered that the PPC Evolution EVO1-5-U/U or PPC Evolution EVO1-9-U/U are also MoCA compatible. They lack the builtin POE filter but otherwise are designed similar to the PCT version in features...the bonus is that they can be found on Ebay for considerably less than the PCT versions. Amazon has them also but pretty much at the full retail price. They are what are referred to as "Entry" series and are usually placed at the main feed coming into the home.
Apparently Comcast uses them with their xfinity systems.


----------



## JohnnyBnyc

This is complicated stuff


----------



## Random User 7

fcfc2 said:


> Hi guys,
> Regarding amps, I discovered that the PPC Evolution EVO1-5-U/U or PPC Evolution EVO1-9-U/U are also MoCA compatible. They lack the builtin POE filter but otherwise are designed similar to the PCT version in features...the bonus is that they can be found on Ebay for considerably less than the PCT versions. Amazon has them also but pretty much at the full retail price. They are what are referred to as "Entry" series and are usually placed at the main feed coming into the home.
> Apparently Comcast uses them with there xfinity systems.


Just ordered a PPC Evo Entry Series 1-5-U/U. Looking forward to giving it a try. Thanks


----------



## Peter G

Not sure if the PPC Entry series distribution amps support MoCA. Their spec sheet does not show frequencies above 1002 MHz. MoCA is in the 1125-1525 MHz range. However fcf2 says they are so perhaps he has experience. 

Let us know how the EV01-5-U works for you.

Peter G


----------



## Random User 7

Peter G said:


> Not sure if the PPC Entry series distribution amps support MoCA. Their spec sheet does not show frequencies above 1002 MHz. MoCA is in the 1125-1525 MHz range. However fcf2 says they are so perhaps he has experience.
> 
> Let us know how the EV01-5-U works for you.
> 
> Peter G


Well shoot, I forgot all about that. I'll post results.


----------



## fcfc2

Peter G said:


> Not sure if the PPC Entry series distribution amps support MoCA. Their spec sheet does not show frequencies above 1002 MHz. MoCA is in the 1125-1525 MHz range. However fcf2 says they are so perhaps he has experience.
> 
> Let us know how the EV01-5-U works for you.
> 
> Peter G






If you go about 45 Seconds into the youtube video, the installation guide will be opened....look towards the lower center for the blue "MoCA" symbol....
PS. Yes I have experience with all but one MoCA compatible amp that I know of....same with most of the MoCA adapters.


----------



## Random User 7

I forgot, the splitter I was using only went up to 1002 MHz and worked great for a year. I needed to add an additional mini so that is why I got this one. I'm not using the power supply and so far just doing a swap it is working fine. Now to add the extra mini.


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## ferky1

Little help needed:

In preparation for setting up a Roamio Plus and minis, I just installed the MoCA adapter to my modem and router. I did not touch anything else. Immediately before setting up the adapter, the online Xfinity speed test (which I ran several times) averaged 50-60 Mbps download speeds over wifi. After installing the adapter, average test speeds were 25-30 Mbps. Removing the adapter got me right back to 50-60. Note that there are NO MoCA devices connected (the Roamio and minis are boxed up).

This is a big deal because my wife works off of a laptop exclusively using Wifi and it is not okay that I just cut our speeds by 50% before any devices are even connected to the MoCA network. Thoughts?


----------



## krkaufman

ferky1 said:


> Little help needed:
> 
> In preparation for setting up a Roamio Plus and minis, I just installed the MoCA adapter to my modem and router.


How did you connect the MoCA adapter? (see below)



krkaufman said:


> As for connecting the MoCA adapter BJO referenced, to create your MoCA network to which the Roamio & Minis will connect, you can try connecting it per the TiVo recommendation (as pictured in the OP) or split the coax to avoid having to connect the modem to the MoCA adapter's pass-through. If you go with the latter, you could use an additional 2-way splitter, or replace the 2-way splitter in your diagram w/ a 3-way.


Many recommend not using the coax out on the MoCA adapter to feed the modem; instead, use a splitter and feed each device individually.


----------



## ferky1

krkaufman said:


> How did you connect the MoCA adapter? (see below)


I used the Tivo recommended loop because I didn't have any extra splitters. Coax into adapter into modem. Ethernet from modem to router to adapter.


----------



## krkaufman

ferky1 said:


> I used the Tivo recommended loop because I didn't have any extra splitters. Coax into adapter into modem. Ethernet from modem to router to adapter.


Couldn't you temporarily disconnect the basic converter and use that coax line, then, to see if a separate feed to the modem clears the problem up?


----------



## krkaufman

p.s. I'm still in favor of my earlier recommendation. (edit: With this initial test setup, you could use a Mini *or* your MoCA adapter w/ a laptop connected to test your remote MoCA connectivity.)

edit: p.p.s. Other thoughts... Have you installed the MoCA PoE filter, yet?


----------



## ferky1

krkaufman said:


> Couldn't you temporarily disconnect the basic converter and use that coax line, then, to see if a separate feed to the modem clears the problem up?


Yes. The TV connected to that basic box is rarely used. I'll try it now. tx


----------



## ferky1

krkaufman said:


> p.s. I'm still in favor of my earlier recommendation.


I know I know, I was trying to avoid moving the Roamio once it's set up because its final resting place is such a pain in the butt to access. I'm reconsidering. . . .


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## krkaufman

ferky1 said:


> I know I know, I was trying to avoid moving the Roamio once it's set up because its final resting place is such a pain in the butt to access. I'm reconsidering. . . .


Just thinking that you'd get some happiness from having it up and running, and building its catalog. And if the modem/basic converter room isn't a difficult place to temporarily house the Plus, then you're not adding that much work.

Besides, if you find any problems w/ the Plus during your initial ramp-up, it'll be a lot easier to yank and return. (i.e. The more inconvenient the final location, the more critical it is to test the Roamio prior to final installation.)


----------



## ferky1

krkaufman said:


> Couldn't you temporarily disconnect the basic converter and use that coax line, then, to see if a separate feed to the modem clears the problem up?


Okay, now I've got the 2 way splitter with one line going to the adapter and the other line going to the modem. Then there is ethernet going from modem to router to adapter. Speed tests are better, but still 20% or more worse than no adapter. Is the next step to put the filter on the line into the house?


----------



## HarperVision

ferky1 said:


> Okay, now I've got the 2 way splitter with one line going to the adapter and the other line going to the modem. Then there is ethernet going from modem to router to adapter. Speed tests are better, but still 20% or more worse than no adapter. Is the next step to put the filter on the line into the house?


What's your modem? It may not have a built in MoCA filter so you'd have to add an external one. This could be your issue.


----------



## ferky1

HarperVision said:


> What's your modem? It may not have a built in MoCA filter so you'd have to add an external one. This could be your issue.


Motorola Surfboard 6141. I've read on this forum that it does contain a filter.

In any event, I have decided to take krkaufman's advice and get the Roamio up and running in the same room as the modem/router (I'm doing guided setup now). I will use the Roamio as the MoCA adapter for now so I can see it actually work in a MoCA network by running a mini in another room off another coax outlet. Once that works, then I'll move the Roamio to its intended spot and try to get the adapter working. Stressful!


----------



## krkaufman

ferky1 said:


> Motorola Surfboard 6141. I've read on this forum that it does contain a filter.


Perplexing. I'm not sure the Plus will fare any better in regards to its MoCA bridge interfering with your network, but you can certainly get it up and running using Ethernet only, and then see what happens when you enable its MoCA bridging feature.


----------



## Random User 7

Peter G said:


> Not sure if the PPC Entry series distribution amps support MoCA. Their spec sheet does not show frequencies above 1002 MHz. MoCA is in the 1125-1525 MHz range. However fcf2 says they are so perhaps he has experience.
> 
> Let us know how the EV01-5-U works for you.
> 
> Peter G


It's working great!


----------



## sheshechic

I'm having a problem inserting a tivo into my current moca system. Prior to picking up this Premiere XL4 I already own one that is acting as a bridge in my den. I also have a Roamio basic and three minis. I have netgear moca creating the system (upstairs in our room over garage) and had another in the livingroom, as well as a mini. The newest XL4 was bought to replace the LR mini and serve as a bridge, however it will not connect. I unplugged the power (several times), and went through setup a second time. I unplugged the XL4 in the den and tried again. I made a new coax just in case there was a problem there. I also rebooted the moca adapter (host), the modem and the router, but no luck. BTW, the moca adapter originally active in the LR was disconnected during most of this. During setup I never used the "use this tivo to create moca" option, just the plain vanilla moca option. It's odd to me to have these difficulties considering the netgear adapter works just fine there and that is how the XL4 is currently connected. It can't be the tivo since I took it upstairs where another mini is setup and it connected just fine. Does anyone have any ideas what the problem could possibly be?


----------



## snerd

sheshechic said:


> I'm having a problem inserting a tivo into my current moca system. Prior to picking up this Premiere XL4 I already own one that is acting as a bridge in my den. I also have a Roamio basic and three minis. I have netgear moca creating the system (upstairs in our room over garage) and had another in the livingroom, as well as a mini. The newest XL4 was bought to replace the LR mini and serve as a bridge, however it will not connect. I unplugged the power (several times), and went through setup a second time. I unplugged the XL4 in the den and tried again. I made a new coax just in case there was a problem there. I also rebooted the moca adapter (host), the modem and the router, but no luck. BTW, the moca adapter originally active in the LR was disconnected during most of this. During setup I never used the "use this tivo to create moca" option, just the plain vanilla moca option. It's odd to me to have these difficulties considering the netgear adapter works just fine there and that is how the XL4 is currently connected. It can't be the tivo since I took it upstairs where another mini is setup and it connected just fine. Does anyone have any ideas what the problem could possibly be?


I understand using the Netgear as the main MoCA controller, but I'm confused by the mention of other moca adapters, since the XL4s and Minis all have MoCA cabability built in. What was the LR MoCA adapter connected to?

You may have inadvertently created an Ethernet loop if two of the MoCA adapters/XL4s were acting as bridges, but that would bring down the whole network rather than simply being unable to connect. Did you do a "Connect to Tivo Service Now" step after attaching the new XL4 to the coax?


----------



## HarperVision

ferky1 said:


> Motorola Surfboard 6141. I've read on this forum that it does contain a filter. In any event, I have decided to take krkaufman's advice and get the Roamio up and running in the same room as the modem/router (I'm doing guided setup now). I will use the Roamio as the MoCA adapter for now so I can see it actually work in a MoCA network by running a mini in another room off another coax outlet. Once that works, then I'll move the Roamio to its intended spot and try to get the adapter working. Stressful!


That's definitely good to hear and good advice. Please keep us updated.


----------



## fcfc2

ferky1 said:


> Motorola Surfboard 6141. I've read on this forum that it does contain a filter.
> 
> In any event, I have decided to take krkaufman's advice and get the Roamio up and running in the same room as the modem/router (I'm doing guided setup now). I will use the Roamio as the MoCA adapter for now so I can see it actually work in a MoCA network by running a mini in another room off another coax outlet. Once that works, then I'll move the Roamio to its intended spot and try to get the adapter working. Stressful!


Hi,
When connecting any MoCA device messes with your internet, it is likely messing with both wired and wireless, it is due to interference. The SB6141 does have a filter builtin....but apparently it is not completely doing it's job. The splitter helped, and a seperate POE filter on the SB6141 may well fix it, but another option is to use a sat grade diplexer instead of your 2 way splitter. If you can grab one, replace the current splitter with the sat grade leg running to your MoCA adapter and the "antenna" side running to your modem.


----------



## snerd

ferky1 said:


> Okay, now I've got the 2 way splitter with one line going to the adapter and the other line going to the modem. Then there is ethernet going from modem to router to adapter. Speed tests are better, but still 20% or more worse than no adapter. Is the next step to put the filter on the line into the house?


The MoCA adapter has two connectors for coax. I assume you've connected the cable to the one labelled "Coax In". You also need to connect something to the connector labelled "TV/STB", or attach a 75-ohm termination to that port. If that is not connected, then that could degrade network performance.

Using a PoE filter on the input line is a good idea, but I wouldn't expect that to cause as much bandwidth loss as you are seeing.


----------



## ferky1

snerd said:


> The MoCA adapter has two connectors for coax. I assume you've connected the cable to the one labelled "Coax In". You also need to connect something to the connector labelled "TV/STB", or attach a 75-ohm termination to that port. If that is not connected, then that could degrade network performance.
> 
> Using a PoE filter on the input line is a good idea, but I wouldn't expect that to cause as much bandwidth loss as you are seeing.


Okay, not sure which was the "magic bullet", but I put a 75-ohm terminator on the unused 'out' port on the adapter; I also put a PoE filter on the line into the house and now my internet speeds are back to normal and everything seems to be working.

I ended up not using the Roamio itself to establish the MoCA network because I had all kinds of headaches getting the cable card to work, and ultimately I decided that I wanted the Tivo set up where it will live permanently. I set it up using WIFI, but just changed the settings to MoCA and forced a connection to Tivo and it seemed to work! Now going to try my first mini....


----------



## sheshechic

snerd said:


> I understand using the Netgear as the main MoCA controller, but I'm confused by the mention of other moca adapters, since the XL4s and Minis all have MoCA cabability built in. What was the LR MoCA adapter connected to?
> 
> You may have inadvertently created an Ethernet loop if two of the MoCA adapters/XL4s were acting as bridges, but that would bring down the whole network rather than simply being unable to connect. Did you do a "Connect to Tivo Service Now" step after attaching the new XL4 to the coax?


I cannot connect to Tivo Service without an internet connection. It did try at least twice.

The living room adapter was connected to a hub for the other equipment. Minis don't bridge. I thought about the loop but that shouldn't happen...unless the newly added tivo is trying to create a network, which I never told it to do and was not an option until I inserted an ethernet cable. Also, that didn't happen when I replaced an upstairs mini with the XL4.

Another thing, I believe that all of our lines are home runs to the splitter at the point where cable comes into the house. There is an amplifier that only goes out to that splitter. If the amplifier where causing the problem wouldn't it be a problem at every outlet? If it were the amplifier would it cause this sort of problem?


----------



## HarperVision

fcfc2 said:


> Hi, When connecting any MoCA device messes with your internet, it is likely messing with both wired and wireless, it is due to interference. The SB6141 does have a filter builtin....but apparently it is not completely doing it's job. The splitter helped, and a seperate POE filter on the SB6141 may well fix it, *but another option is to use a sat grade diplexer instead of your 2 way splitter. If you can grab one, replace the current splitter with the sat grade leg running to your MoCA adapter and the "antenna" side running to your modem*.


What's the advantage of that? A Satellite diplexer is just a two way splitter with one leg (satellite) having a DC blocker on it as far as I know. If that's what you're trying to accomplish then I would think you'd want the DC power blocker on the modem side.


----------



## snerd

sheshechic said:


> I cannot connect to Tivo Service without an internet connection. It did try at least twice.
> 
> The living room adapter was connected to a hub for the other equipment. Minis don't bridge. I thought about the loop but that shouldn't happen...unless the newly added tivo is trying to create a network, which I never told it to do and was not an option until I inserted an ethernet cable. Also, that didn't happen when I replaced an upstairs mini with the XL4.
> 
> Another thing, I believe that all of our lines are home runs to the splitter at the point where cable comes into the house. There is an amplifier that only goes out to that splitter. If the amplifier where causing the problem wouldn't it be a problem at every outlet? If it were the amplifier would it cause this sort of problem?


An amplifier could cause a problem for some parts of the system without interfering with other parts, depending on where the amplifier and splitters are placed. The whole system should form a tree, with the trunk representing the point where the cable feeds into the house. If you have some splitters making branches, and one branch feeds into a MoCA-incompatible amplifier, then MoCA devices that are downstream from the amplifier won't be able to talk to anything that isn't driven by the amplifier because the MoCA signals can't pass back through the amplifier. MoCA compatible amplifiers are designed to pass signals back through the input port.

If the LR mini was working and connected only by coax, and the only physical change you make is to disconnect the mini and attach an XL4 to the coax, and no configuration of that XL4 can be made to work, then is seems quite likely that there MoCA function of that XL4 is broken. If one specific XL4 will work in place of the upstairs mini, but that same XL4 will not work in place of the LR mini, then the problem can't be the XL4. Pretty weird.


----------



## fcfc2

HarperVision said:


> What's the advantage of that? A Satellite diplexer is just a two way splitter with one leg (satellite) having a DC blocker on it as far as I know. If that's what you're trying to accomplish then I would think you'd want the DC power blocker on the modem side.


Well, it is not just a DC blocker, it is a frequency splitter with the lower band (antenna) carrying the <1GHz frequencies and the upper band (sat) side carrying the > 1GHz (MoCA) frequencies. MoCA devices often have AGC circuits, which sometimes pump out too strong a signal to make a connection, this often results in interference in the lower frequency band. By using a diplexer in the manner described, it tends to keep this bleed over from going to the antenna/catv side.


----------



## krkaufman

fcfc2 said:


> Well, it is not just a DC blocker, it is a frequency splitter with the lower band (antenna) carrying the <1GHz frequencies and the upper band (sat) side carrying the > 1GHz (MoCA) frequencies. MoCA devices often have AGC circuits, which sometimes pump out too strong a signal to make a connection, this often results in interference in the lower frequency band. By using a diplexer in the manner described, it tends to keep this bleed over from going to the antenna/catv side.


Isn't there also less signal loss using a diplexer, so each leg would get more of the signal that each device needs? (MoCA frequencies for MoCA adapter, CATV freqs for modem)


----------



## fcfc2

krkaufman said:


> Isn't there also less signal loss using a diplexer, so each leg would get more of the signal that each device needs? (MoCA frequencies for MoCA adapter, CATV freqs for modem)


Hi,
I don't know for certain, I would have to look up the specs, but I doubt that the insertion loss is significantly different than a standard splitter, the design is mainly to keep the frequency bands separate.
In the days before MoCA filters were readily available, diplexers were one of the standard tools used to protect cable modems and standard catv boxes from loosing channels and blocking or reducing internet speeds.


----------



## sheshechic

snerd said:


> An amplifier could cause a problem for some parts of the system without interfering with other parts, depending on where the amplifier and splitters are placed. The whole system should form a tree, with the trunk representing the point where the cable feeds into the house. If you have some splitters making branches, and one branch feeds into a MoCA-incompatible amplifier, then MoCA devices that are downstream from the amplifier won't be able to talk to anything that isn't driven by the amplifier because the MoCA signals can't pass back through the amplifier. MoCA compatible amplifiers are designed to pass signals back through the input port.
> 
> If the LR mini was working and connected only by coax, and the only physical change you make is to disconnect the mini and attach an XL4 to the coax, and no configuration of that XL4 can be made to work, then is seems quite likely that there MoCA function of that XL4 is broken. If one specific XL4 will work in place of the upstairs mini, but that same XL4 will not work in place of the LR mini, then the problem can't be the XL4. Pretty weird.


Not even the moca adapter should work- correct? But it does. I believe the room is haunted. I've had a lot of tech problems in there and it doesn't like wi-fi either even though the door opening is 60" wide and the tv is near it. smh Thanks for trying to help.


----------



## krkaufman

fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> I don't know for certain, I would have to look up the specs, but I doubt that the insertion loss is significantly different than a standard splitter, the design is mainly to keep the frequency bands separate.
> In the days before MoCA filters were readily available, diplexers were one of the standard tools used to protect cable modems and standard catv boxes from loosing channels and blocking or reducing internet speeds.


Insertion loss on this Holland diplexer, as a single example, is just 1.5dB, versus the typical 3.5dB for a 2-way splitter.


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## mdavej

That's 1.5 dB loss on essentially a straight thru. Diplexers don't split anything. They isolate two frequency bands on the same wire. It's impossible to passively split a signal and get less than 3.5 dB loss on each leg. By definition if you split anything in half, you get at least a 50% loss (3.5 dB).


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## krkaufman

Ingenious use of a diplexer in deployment of MoCA around an amplifier...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2773/4300803761_f849850507_o.jpg

From an anandtech forum thread.


----------



## snerd

mdavej said:


> That's 1.5 dB loss on essentially a straight thru. Diplexers don't split anything. They isolate two frequency bands on the same wire. It's impossible to passively split a signal and get less than 3.5 dB loss on each leg. By definition if you split anything in half, you get at least a 50% loss (3.5 dB).


Nitpick: 50% loss is 3.0 dB. The extra 0.5 dB represents RF power that is absorbed by the splitter. The 1.5 dB loss of the displexer is all true loss of RF power absorbed by the diplexer.


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## mdavej

snerd said:


> Nitpick: 50% loss is 3.0 dB. The extra 0.5 dB represents RF power that is absorbed by the splitter. The 1.5 dB loss of the displexer is all true loss of RF power absorbed by the diplexer.


To nitpick even more, half power (50%) is actually 3.16 dB. So that's the minimum theoretical loss from a 2 way split.


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## snerd

mdavej said:


> To nitpick even more, half power (50%) is actually 3.16 dB. So that's the minimum theoretical loss from a 2 way split.


Mathematically 10*log(0.5) = -3.0103. I rounded to -3.0, where does 3.16 come from?


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## mdavej

Sorry, I thought it was calculated 10^0.5 = 3.16, rather than Log of 2 = -0.301 or -3 dB. It's been a while. I guess it's a good thing I'm not using many splitters or diplexers ;-)


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## HarperVision

fcfc2 said:


> Well, it is not just a DC blocker, it is a frequency splitter with the lower band (antenna) carrying the <1GHz frequencies and the upper band (sat) side carrying the > 1GHz (MoCA) frequencies. MoCA devices often have AGC circuits, which sometimes pump out too strong a signal to make a connection, this often results in interference in the lower frequency band. By using a diplexer in the manner described, it tends to keep this bleed over from going to the antenna/catv side.


I'll have to research that more. I've used standard wideband satellite splitters with a DC block screwed on one leg many times in the past and had nary an issue. Of course, this was before MoCa and DECA.


----------



## snerd

fcfc2 said:


> Well, it is not just a DC blocker, it is a frequency splitter with the lower band (antenna) carrying the <1GHz frequencies and the upper band (sat) side carrying the > 1GHz (MoCA) frequencies. MoCA devices often have AGC circuits, which sometimes pump out too strong a signal to make a connection, this often results in interference in the lower frequency band. By using a diplexer in the manner described, it tends to keep this bleed over from going to the antenna/catv side.


I think you may be misunderstanding how the AGC circuits work in MoCA devices. The AGC circuit is in the receiver, where it varies the gain on the amplifier in order to adjust the signal levels for good reception. The transmitter is most likely designed to send out a fixed power level, but the MoCA standard allows the output level to range from -1 dB to +7 dB. The MoCA standard prohibits the MoCA device from stomping on frequencies outside of the band that the MoCA network is using, so if a MoCA device is causing interference on lower frequency bands it would be in violation of the standard.

I hope that didn't offend you


----------



## snerd

HarperVision said:


> I'll have to research that more. I've used standard wideband satellite splitters with a DC block screwed on one leg many times in the past and had nary an issue. Of course, this was before MoCa and DECA.


fcfc2 is right. Diplexers are commonly used as combiners to take high frequencies from a satellite dish and combine them with low frequencies for an OTA antenna so that both sets of signals are on the same coax. They are bidirectional devices, so you can turn it around and use is to take signals from a single coax and split off the high frequencies to one port while sending the low frequencies to the other port.

A regular splitter can also be used as a combiner by turning it around. So a diplexer can be thought of like a special splitter that splits frequencies rather than splitting power evenly at all frequencies.


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## Peter G

To Random User:

Good to know the amp you selected works with MoCA. I guess a lot of devices that are rated to 1002 MHz will also pass higher frequencies, such as the splitters you had and this amp. Also if I understand correctly the MoCA signal is quite strong so even if there is some attenuation through these devices it is minimal and does not stop the MoCA band.

Peter G


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## HarperVision

snerd said:


> fcfc2 is right. Diplexers are commonly used as combiners to take high frequencies from a satellite dish and combine them with low frequencies for an OTA antenna so that both sets of signals are on the same coax. They are bidirectional devices, so you can turn it around and use is to take signals from a single coax and split off the high frequencies to one port while sending the low frequencies to the other port. A regular splitter can also be used as a combiner by turning it around. So a diplexer can be thought of like a special splitter that splits frequencies rather than splitting power evenly at all frequencies.


Yes, I know what they are what they're intended for. I've used them many many times. My contention and beef was that they took the time and expense to actually build the circuit inside of it when, as I've said, just a plain splitter with a DC block on one leg works just as well. I'm sure there are real advantages to this separation of freqs, but in reality the real separation happens because they are separate frequencies which don't overlap (cable 40-864 MHz, sat 974-1790 MHz).

I think I read you're an rf engineer, is it due to harmonics maybe? Intermodulation? Carrier levels?


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## Peter G

HarperVision

The purpose of the diplexer is to reduce the losses of a typical splitter. In a splitter both paths have the same band (i.e. 40-2150 MHz) so the signal is split equally in two. This is 3 dB plus losses typically spec'd as 3.5 dB.

A diplexer separates the two paths by frequency so the power is not split equally in both legs. As noted above the loss is only 1.5 dB.

Compared to 3.5 dB loss, the 1.5 dB loss of a diplexer is about half the amount of attenuation or twice the signal strength passing through each port. That is the purpose of the diplexer.

Better diplexers will have even lower loss in each band.

Peter G


----------



## snerd

HarperVision said:


> Yes, I know what they are what they're intended for. I've used them many many times. My contention and beef was that they took the time and expense to actually build the circuit inside of it when, as I've said, just a plain splitter with a DC block on one leg works just as well. I'm sure there are real advantages to this separation of freqs, but in reality the real separation happens because they are separate frequencies which don't overlap (cable 40-864 MHz, sat 974-1790 MHz).
> 
> I think I read you're an rf engineer, is it due to harmonics maybe? Intermodulation? Carrier levels?


The fact that they are separate frequency bands that don't overlap is what allows them to coexist on the same coax. There are plenty of situations where splitting the frequencies onto independent branches of coax has a real benefit by keeping frequencies from reaching places where they aren't wanted.

For example, suppose you have a bunch of Roamio base units and you've set up a MoCA network so they can all talk to each other, and you have Comcast for both TV and internet. One weekend you get bored, and decide to buy an OTA antenna and you want to feed the OTA signal to half of your house while keeping the Comcast TV on the other half. OTA and Comcast TV don't mix, but you want to keep the MoCA network intact. You also don't want the MoCA signals to reach the OTA antenna, because you don't really want to spew your MoCA signals all over the neighborhood. Let's say that the cable feeding into your house goes through a MoCA PoE filter into a 3-port splitter. Port 1 of the spitter connects to your cable modem, port 2 of the splitter feeds the upstairs, which will remain with Comcast TV, and Port 3 feeds downstairs, and will become the OTA branch.

All you need is one diplexer. Disconnect the coax from port 3 of the splitter, and attach the coax to the output of the diplexer. Attach the low frequency port of the diplexer to the OTA antenna, and run a short coax from port 3 of the splitter to the high frequency port of the diplexer. The high-pass filter in the diplexer prevents the Comcast TV signals from clashing with the OTA signals, while passing through the MoCA frequencies. The low-pass filter in the diplexer passes the OTA signals from the antenna, while keeping the MoCA frequencies aways from the antenna.

You can't do the same thing with an ordinary splitter in place of the diplexer. Sure, you can use a MoCA PoE filter to keep the MoCA signals off the OTA antenna, but you need the high pass filter to keep the catv signals from mixing with the OTA signals. In addition, the diplexer has lower loss than a splitter, so on the OTA branch, the OTA signals and the MoCA signals are both stronger than they would be with any solution that used a splitter. On top of all that, the diplexer is less expensive than a PoE filter.


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## mattman84

Hello all, firstly please let me know if I should move this to its own thread rather than hijacking this one. I'm not sure of the proper etiquette.

We recently moved in to a new home we had constructed. I was able to dictate where all the ports in the house went, including coax and cat6. I put cat6 drops in most rooms, but only did coax when I knew the only device I would ever put there would be a TiVo Mini. There is one such drop in the master bathroom, and one on the back patio.

I have a Roamio Plus in the master bedroom. It is connected via coax to the wall and receiving programming from Comcast. It is also connected via Ethernet to my larger home network.

The cat6 lines from each room terminate in a closet and are all plugged into the same Gigabit switch. This switch is connected to my wireless router, which is connected to a Comcast cable modem (I'm not sure of model at the moment but can check when I'm at home).

I have three TiVo Minis connected via Ethernet throughout the house that all work great. However, I've been unable to establish a MoCA connection with the Mini in the master bathroom. I could not complete initial setup with it (C133 error I think?) so I connected it in a different room via Ethernet to complete initial setup. I cannot get it to connect via MoCA at all though.

The Roamio is set up to act as a MoCA bridge. The network screen says Ethernet + MoCA.

I have tried variations on my equipment - different cables, different outlets, different Minis - all work when connected via Ethernet, none work with MoCA. 

From what I've read I know this is usually caused by splitters or amps putting the overall signal out of range, but I've not been able to locate one. I checked the entry point behind the box that Comcast put up and I do not see the line being split, and I've not put anything elsewhere inside. I do not know how the wiring guy wired it during construction though - perhaps there is an amp or splitters behind the wall that I'm unaware of?

I've left a message with the Comcast installer asking if he knew of any splits anywhere but have yet to hear back.

Is there anything that sticks out in my setup as being the obvious problem? Could it be the Comcast cable modem? Do I need a POE filter at point of entry? I'm really hoping I didn't make a mistake by not putting cat6 everywhere.

Thank you!


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## krkaufman

mattman84 said:


> ... I've been unable to establish a MoCA connection with the Mini in the master bathroom. ... The Roamio is set up to act as a MoCA bridge. The network screen says Ethernet + MoCA.
> 
> I have tried variations on my equipment - different cables, different outlets, different Minis - all work when connected via Ethernet, none work with MoCA.
> 
> From what I've read I know this is usually caused by *splitters or amps putting the overall signal out of range, but I've not been able to locate one*. I checked the entry point behind the box that Comcast put up and I do not see the line being split, and I've not put anything elsewhere inside. I do not know how the wiring guy wired it during construction though - perhaps there is an amp or splitters behind the wall that I'm unaware of?
> 
> I've left a message with the Comcast installer asking if he knew of any splits anywhere but have yet to hear back.
> 
> Is there anything that sticks out in my setup as being the obvious problem? Could it be the Comcast cable modem? Do I need a POE filter at point of entry? I'm really hoping I didn't make a mistake by not putting cat6 everywhere.


It all sounds generally correct, but, yeah, you need to identify where all the coax lines in your house originate. You have to have at least 1 splitter, at a minimum, somewhere.

Can you see where the coax line from the Comcast box enters your house? Is it just one coax cable? Knowing where the line enters your house, can you locate the cable from inside your house, perhaps from the basement or in a closet? (I've never heard of splitters or amps being installed behind drywall, and I hope your's isn't the first.)

Also, yes, you need a MoCA filter on your point-of-entry, though Comcast *may* have already installed one. You'd have to find your main splitter's input and check inside the Comcast box to verify.


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## krkaufman

mattman84 said:


> ... I've been unable to establish a MoCA connection with the Mini in the master bathroom.


Borrowing from someone else's recent suggestion, if you can afford a brief network outage, you might try connecting your modem in the master bathroom, to see if it can find the Comcast signal. This would be a good, quick way to check whether that particular coax line is connected to the rest of your coax network.


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## snerd

mattman84 said:


> Is there anything that sticks out in my setup as being the obvious problem? Could it be the Comcast cable modem? Do I need a POE filter at point of entry? I'm really hoping I didn't make a mistake by not putting cat6 everywhere.
> 
> Thank you!


Can't be the cable modem, since your internet is working and you've been able to set up the Roamio and make it work.

PoE filter should help, but they aren't absolutely required, so that probably doesn't explain the problem.

One thing to check -- all unused coax ports need to have a 75-omn termination attached. Same applies to unused ports on all splitters.

Another way to test the coax ports would be to connect the Roamio to each one to see if live TV works.

If none of the minis will work over coax, it is possible that the MoCA function in the Roamio is dead.

If you system used an amplifier, and it isn't MoCA compatible, then that would explain the problem.


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## mattman84

Thanks all for the suggestions. I was not able to run any tests last night but will when I get home from work. Hopefully this will be an easy solve.


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## Peter G

Mattman,

You need to know if and how the various coax cables are connected. In my new house they ran coax to all the rooms and to the exterior. But the did not connect any of these cables to anything; they all terminate in an enclosure in the laundry room. It is a Home-Run wiring plan.

I used an 8 way MoCA bypass amplifier to connect the cables in a network which also passes the Cable Internet in to a MoCA adapter and the Modem. This has created the MoCA network and it is present at all coax cable terminations.

Perhaps in your new construction there are a bunch of un-connected cables?

Peter G


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## mattman84

I had an unexpected result from my tests last night. I moved the Roamio from the master bedroom to the guest bedroom and connected the coax and cat6. The TiVo Mini in the master bathroom was then able to connect via MoCA and use all network features. However, the Roamio could not tune to any channels. So it would seem that the master bedroom coax line and the closet coax line (where the cable modem is) are the only lines receiving anything from Comcast (and possibly others in the house that I have not tested), and are separate from the bathroom and guest bedroom lines. 

When I get home I'm going to tool around behind the plate in the closet where all the cat6 lines terminate. I believe all the coax lines meet behind there in some fashion. At least that's what I recall seeing before the drywall went up. Hopefully I can see how it's all interconnected.

Thanks again for all the assistance everyone!


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## embryjim

Kingpcgeek said:


> My setup has the cable from the street going to a splitter. One leg goes directly to the cable modem. Second leg goes to cable company installed amplifier/splitter. I have heard that MoCA signals will not pass through most amplifiers, so I haven't bothered to install a MoCA adapter at my router. Instead I am using my Elite to bridge a MoCA connection to my Premiere 4. I am wondering if I still need to install a POE filter since I have the amplifier in place that technically is not supposed to pass MoCA signals?


This was an early post to this thread (#23), pardon me if this has been answered but I did not see that it had been. I have the exact same setup as in the first three sentences above, cable entry split two ways, one going to cable modem and the other going to non-MOCA amp (see picture). In order to get MOCA working, I have a MOCA adapter after the amp where all the Tivo/mini connections reside. The adapter is connected to my router via Ethernet, so no MOCA connection goes back out the demarc, presuming the amp blocks the MOCA frequencies. I am also wondering if I need a POE filter at the entry point. Everything I have is working fine, although there are a few occasions when the minis can't tune a channel, or see the host Roamio, but usually changing channels on the mini (or pressing the Tivo button on the remote) resolves this. Thanks to all who give their time/knowledge to the TivoNation effort.


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## BigJimOutlaw

embryjim said:


> This was an early post to this thread (#23), pardon me if this has been answered but I did not see that it had been. I have the exact same setup as in the first three sentences above, cable entry split two ways, one going to cable modem and the other going to non-MOCA amp (see picture). In order to get MOCA working, I have a MOCA adapter after the amp where all the Tivo/mini connections reside. The adapter is connected to my router via Ethernet, so no MOCA connection goes back out the demarc, presuming the amp blocks the MOCA frequencies. I am also wondering if I need a POE filter at the entry point. Everything I have is working fine, although there are a few occasions when the minis can't tune a channel, or see the host Roamio, but usually changing channels on the mini (or pressing the Tivo button on the remote) resolves this. Thanks to all who give their time/knowledge to the TivoNation effort.


If the moca signal is passing through the amplified splitter to reach other devices, it could be hindering the signal. Since the signal is apparently getting through to some degree, a POE filter on the input socket of that amp is probably a good idea. If not for the moca signal strength, then at least for security. But it might help give you just enough moca strength to keep it going.

This amp setup is a little like a dog chasing its own tail. If you were so inclined, you could use a plain 3 or 4-way splitter (one leg to Tivo, one leg to adapter, one leg shared by as many Minis as possible) and then your DVR would have a stronger TV signal without needing an amp. (The Minis don't need a TV signal so it's ok for them to have a lower priority on the coax.)


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## embryjim

BigJimOutlaw said:


> If the moca signal is passing through the amplified splitter to reach other devices, it could be hindering the signal. Since the signal is apparently getting through to some degree, a POE filter on the input socket of that amp is probably a good idea. If not for the moca signal strength, then at least for security. That might help give you just enough signal strength to keep it going.
> 
> This setup is a little like a dog chasing its own tail. If you were so inclined, you could use a plain 3 or 4-way splitter (one leg to Tivo, one leg to adapter, one leg shared by as many Minis as possible) and your DVR would have a stronger TV signal without needing an amp. (The Minis don't need a TV signal so it's ok for them to have a lower priority on the coax.)


Hmmm... good point about the amp. When I was trying to feed 6 tv's with signal the cableco installed it to provide enough power for good reception. My thought was ALL MOCA signal was being blocked from going out the input of the amp, and being bounced back to the other devices on the output side, kind of like a POE filter. But if some is leaking through, then maybe the POE there is a good idea, thanks for your time and knowledge.


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## krkaufman

embryjim said:


> Hmmm... good point about the amp. When I was trying to feed 6 tv's with signal the cableco installed it to provide enough power for good reception. My thought was ALL MOCA signal was being blocked from going out the input of the amp, and being bounced back to the other devices on the output side, kind of like a POE filter. But if some is leaking through, then maybe the POE there is a good idea, thanks for your time and knowledge.


I think BigJimOutlaw was also suggesting, in his second paragraph (below) that that amp may be unnecessary, now, if you only need to get the cable signal (i.e. the non-MoCA part of the signal) to the TiVo.



BigJimOutlaw said:


> This amp setup is a little like a dog chasing its own tail. If you were so inclined, you could use a plain 3 or 4-way splitter (one leg to Tivo, one leg to adapter, one leg shared by as many Minis as possible) and then your DVR would have a stronger TV signal without needing an amp. (The Minis don't need a TV signal so it's ok for them to have a lower priority on the coax.)


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## krkaufman

FYI... FiOS user w/ questions on MoCA setup in separate thread, here.


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## embryjim

krkaufman said:


> I think BigJimOutlaw was also suggesting, in his second paragraph (below) that that amp may be unnecessary, now, if you only need to get the cable signal (i.e. the non-MoCA part of the signal) to the TiVo.


Thanks, I did get that part about the amp maybe being superfluous (my big word for the day). This kind of thing (MOCA) can really go off the rails if you don't get your head around it, especially if you are trying to integrate systems as your link about FIOS and OTA indicates. BigJim's point about the minis escaped me until I realized that it's not an actual television signal I'm watching, but streamed content from the Tivo that happens to be a live signal. Question for my education, it appears a 3-4 way split provides better signal than the amp, does the 8 way amp provide more loss even though its amp'ed? Obviously so, just wanted to know why.

*EDIT*

After further review, it seems I have an 8 port Unity Gain amp. So I'm guessing internal amplification so that each port has the same signal as was fed to the amp initially. Does this alter anyone's perception of whether the amp is necessary/unnecessary? Or is it more of "why inject power/noise if power is not needed?"


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## HarperVision

embryjim said:


> Thanks, I did get that part about the amp maybe being superfluous (my big word for the day). This kind of thing (MOCA) can really go off the rails if you don't get your head around it, especially if you are trying to integrate systems as your link about FIOS and OTA indicates. * BigJim's point about the minis escaped me until I realized that it's not an actual television signal I'm watching, but streamed content from the Tivo that happens to be a live signal.* Question for my education, it appears a 3-4 way split provides better signal than the amp, does the 8 way amp provide more loss even though its amp'ed? Obviously so, just wanted to know why.
> 
> *EDIT* After further review, it seems I have an 8 port Unity Gain amp. So I'm guessing internal amplification so that each port has the same signal as was fed to the amp initially. Does this alter anyone's perception of whether the amp is necessary/unnecessary? Or is it more of "why inject power if power is not needed?"


Yeah, this is what allows you to also easily use DirecTV's cheaper deca system instead of moca without it interfering with your cable tv signals.


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## krkaufman

embryjim said:


> After further review, it seems I have an 8 port Unity Gain amp. So I'm guessing internal amplification so that each port has the same signal as was fed to the amp initially. Does this alter anyone's perception of whether the amp is necessary/unnecessary? Or is it more of "why inject power/noise if power is not needed?"


Right, why have the amp if it's no longer needed for signal boosting. Note that it may still be needed, but it's worth testing.


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## embryjim

krkaufman said:


> Right, why have the amp if it's no longer needed for signal boosting. Note that it may still be needed, but it's worth testing.


OK, thanks for all the advice and I really don't want to get too off-topic and I will try all the possibilities just for real world results, but I am truly interested here. If I have -3.5dB loss from the main split, then I go into the 8 port unity gain amp and come out with ~ -3.5dB loss (plus a noise loss of <4dB from the amp), that gives me about -7 to -7.5dB loss. If I take the amp out and put in a three way splitter, wouldn't that give me the same loss? Again -3.5dB from the main split, plus another -3.5 from the three way split, so around -7dB loss. Again not trying to be argumentative, just wanting to learn. Are other factors in play with the amp? Or do I just need to sit down and shut up.


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## BigJimOutlaw

It's part preference, part practicality. As long as the amp setup is working with the TV and moca, then there's no super compelling reason to change.

If the amp continues to give you trouble with moca after the POE is added to its input, the alternate coax setup is a cheap fix that avoids needing a new $80 moca-compatible amp.


----------



## embryjim

BigJimOutlaw said:


> It's part preference, part practicality. As long as the amp setup is working with the TV and moca, then there's no super compelling reason to change.
> 
> If the amp continues to give you trouble with moca after the POE is added to its input, the alternate coax setup is a cheap fix that avoids needing a new $80 moca-compatible amp.


Got it... sit down and shut up . I tend to overthink things, but of course you have figured that out, thanks for all the help guys.


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## BigJimOutlaw

embryjim said:


> Got it... sit down and shut up . I tend to overthink things, but of course you have figured that out, thanks for all the help guys.


No not at all. lol. Do you happen to know how much gain (in dB) is on your amp? What you said is correct. The alternative coax setup isn't necessarily better, it's just about avoiding the amp if moca doesn't play nice with it. Many amps are rated for 1002 MHz, but moca operates at 1150 MHz, hence the problem sometimes.

So if moca doesn't work with the amp, rather than getting an $80 moca-friendly 8-way amp, the coax can be optimized to reduce TV signal loss to the TV by using a plain splitter with fewer splits, which sees more loss the more splits it has. An 8-way un-amped splitter will see more loss per leg (typically -11dB) than a 3-way splitter (-3.5 to -7). The only point being that you can be creative and thrifty with the wiring to achieve the same result (or sometimes better if the math works) since Minis and terminated ports don't need that TV signal.


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## embryjim

BigJimOutlaw said:


> No not at all. lol. Do you happen to know how much gain (in dB) is on your amp?


Well, since you asked... I freely admit I don't quite understand how this works. I have attached the specs of the amp (the 8 port one at the far right ipa1008d-rsvf). It says 0 gain both forward and reverse. So how can it provide the same signal on the output of all 8 legs? Is there something in there that measures incoming signal and then amps all 8 legs back to that on the out? I found this somewhat explanation *"A unity gain distribution amplifier has a special design that includes enough of a signal boost (gain) to overcome the loss of the splitters built into the distribution amplifier." * So there is obviously some gain but it is not documented. On the surface this appears to act like an 8 way no loss splitter (well some loss via noise), is that even possible? I'm obviously misunderstanding something here but have yet to get my head around it. If I keep experiencing network issues, I'll put the POE on the input of the amp and test that. Then, like you say foregoing the expense of a MOCA enabled amp, will start trying the splitter method.


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## BigJimOutlaw

I don't entirely know either, but if an 8-way splitter typically loses 11dB and you're only losing 3.5dB, then I guess that's the gain math. Or not. I don't know. 

In any event, you should be good to go one way or the other.


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## embryjim

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I don't entirely know either, but if an 8-way splitter typically loses 11dB and you're only losing 3.5dB, then I guess that's the gain math. Or not. I don't know.
> 
> In any event, you should be good to go one way or the other.


Told ya' I overthink things, thanks for hanging in there with me and for the advice. I'll stop looking for trouble and just enjoy my rig. 

Quick edit, it was overthinking, an 8 port UG amp has 10.5dB of gain to compensate for the -10.5dB of loss due to the splits. It cares not what the input signal is, just provides an equal amount of amplification to the splitter loss.


----------



## krkaufman

FYI... for those looking to utilize MoCA with their new TiVo BOLT:

The BOLT may lack the ability to create a MoCA network at product launch. See here for more info.

edit: p.s. (23Oct2016) *NOTE:* This issue was resolved by the time BOLT launched. The TiVo BOLT has the same MoCA bridging capabilities as the 6-tuner Roamios and 4-tuner Premieres -- along with being MoCA 2.0.


----------



## midnightmarauder

Hello TiVo community.
Question here.
I am looking to cut the cord. So I would like to go with a TiVo Bolt and 2 Tivo Minis with a HD Antenna.

My current setup consists of fairpoint fiber internet. and I use Comcast for my tv with a premiere.

Anyhooo...

I'm trying to understand this moca business. The bolt will have its own Ethernet cable. I do not have enough Ethernet ports to run to the two minis so could someone help me out with figuring a moca network.

I don't think the cable going to the router (fairpoint fiber, formerly known as verizion fios internet) is in the whole apartment. Comcast cable like I said is what I use for tv and I believe that is what's piped into the outlets or do you think the installer piped off of their coaxial?

I'm so confused. Thanks for any help you can offer fellas.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

midnightmarauder said:


> Hello TiVo community.
> Question here.
> I am looking to cut the cord. So I would like to go with a TiVo Bolt and 2 Tivo Minis with a HD Antenna.
> 
> My current setup consists of fairpoint fiber internet. and I use Comcast for my tv with a premiere.
> 
> Anyhooo...
> 
> I'm trying to understand this moca business. The bolt will have its own Ethernet cable. I do not have enough Ethernet ports to run to the two minis so could someone help me out with figuring a moca network.
> 
> I don't think the cable going to the router (fairpoint fiber, formerly known as verizion fios internet) is in the whole apartment. Comcast cable like I said is what I use for tv and I believe that is what's piped into the outlets or do you think the installer piped off of their coaxial?
> 
> I'm so confused. Thanks for any help you can offer fellas.


It's most likely Comcast coax, but you can check for yourself by connecting the Premiere to the coax to see if you get TV or not.

In any event, once you have all your TV coax fed from the antenna pipe, all you'll have to do is connect the Bolt by ethernet, and under network settings select "Use this DVR to create a moca network".


----------



## krkaufman

midnightmarauder said:


> I'm trying to understand this moca business. The bolt will have its own Ethernet cable. I do not have enough Ethernet ports to run to the two minis so could someone help me out with figuring a moca network.


What do you mean by "do not have enough Ethernet ports"? This makes the difficulty seem just a matter of too few Ethernet ports on the router.

If you had more Ethernet ports, could you run Ethernet cables to the Minis?


----------



## krkaufman

midnightmarauder said:


> My current setup consists of fairpoint fiber internet. and I use Comcast for my tv with a *premiere*.


What model Premiere?

A 4-tuner Premiere will have the same basic MoCA bridging capabilities of a BOLT, and can even support a Mini, so you could do your MoCA & Mini setup testing just as soon as you buy a Mini.

Note that you will want to install a MoCA filter on your Comcast cable point-of-entry (PoE), to prevent your MoCA signal from traveling outside the house.


----------



## krkaufman

midnightmarauder said:


> I am looking to cut the cord. So I would like to go with a TiVo Bolt and 2 Tivo Minis with a *HD Antenna*.


Where will your HD OTA antenna be installed, and how will its cable be routed to your BOLT?


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## midnightmarauder

Ok. 
Well the hd antennae will be in the attic and ill bring it down
and connect to the bolt . 

I think i could get a 5 port switch for my router and dedicate the
primary 3 ether net ports to the bolt and 2 minis.

big Jim. I don't understand what you mean. Do you mean split
the hd antenna coax into 3 lines and run each line to the bolt and two tivo
minis and the ether net into the bolt? 

I'm sorry I'm so confused by this.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

midnightmarauder said:


> big Jim. I don't understand what you mean. Do you mean split
> the hd antenna coax into 3 lines and run each line to the bolt and two tivo
> minis and the ether net into the bolt?
> 
> I'm sorry I'm so confused by this.


The incoming HD antenna feed would ideally replace the incoming comcast feed, so that all TVs are fed from the same coax. That would allow you to do moca without a hodge-podge hybrid setup.


----------



## krkaufman

midnightmarauder said:


> I think i could get a 5 port switch for my router and dedicate the primary 3 ether net ports to the bolt and 2 minis.


Yes, if you already have or can easily add Ethernet runs to the Minis, connecting a switch to the router to add additional Ethernet ports would be my recommended solution.

MoCA would then be unnecessary, since you'd have wired Ethernet connectivity between your BOLT and Minis. (In this case, the Minis would be connected only to power and Ethernet; the Minis would not need to be connected via coax. And the BOLT would simply need power, Ethernet and a coax run to your antenna.)

NOTE: Connecting the BOLT and your Minis via this secondary switch would also provide the added benefit of your BOLT-to-Mini streaming not being disrupted if you ever need to reboot your router, since their traffic would be isolated to the switch. (This only applies to Minis streaming recorded content or live TV from the BOLT; Internet-based streaming services such as Netflix, Amazon, etc. would certainly be disrupted by a router reboot, regardless.)

----
edit: p.s. If, someday, you want to add some additional Minis to your setup in rooms where you CANNOT run Ethernet, MoCA may *then* be your chum. Pop back and seek help if/when you come to that bridge.


----------



## midnightmarauder

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The incoming HD antenna feed would ideally replace the incoming comcast feed, so that all TVs are fed from the same coax. That would allow you to do moca without a hodge-podge hybrid setup.


Would you please draw me a diagram?


----------



## krkaufman

midnightmarauder said:


> I'm sorry I'm so confused by this.


It *can* be daunting.

The following how-to page from TiVo can be helpful to understanding what needs to be done and the options available.

*TiVo: How to connect your TiVo® box to your network and the Internet*

Your TiVo box needs a high-speed Internet connection to receive program listings, TiVo® service updates, and on-demand content. The type of network connection you choose will depend on what you want to do with your TiVo box(es), and whether its possible to connect an Ethernet cable to your TiVo box(es).

If you plan to stream shows between TiVo boxes, you must use a wired connection: Ethernet (Option 1) or MoCA (Option 2). If you have no plans to stream shows between boxes, you can use a wireless connection (Option 3). (Wireless connection speeds are typically not fast enough to stream shows reliably.)​
In your case, you're looking to _stream_ shows from a BOLT to a Mini, so you'll need wired network connections, either Ethernet or MoCA(network via coax) -- and you're opting for Ethernet for all your devices, so don't need to worry about MoCA at the present time.


----------



## krkaufman

midnightmarauder said:


> Would you please draw me a diagram?


Marauder, back up a step, please.

You are planning to connect your BOLT and your 2 Minis via Ethernet, correct? (That is, once you add a network switch to boost the number of Ethernet ports available.)

If so, you don't need to worry about MoCA and integrating it with your OTA antenna signal; you can just run a direct coax line from your antenna to your BOLT, as you described previously...


midnightmarauder said:


> Well the hd antennae will be in the attic and ill bring it down and connect to the bolt .


*Direct antenna connection to BOLT + Ethernet connectivity for BOLT and Minis... BOOM, done!*


----------



## midnightmarauder

Yes I am. For the sake of learning I was just curious of how I would do
Moca.


----------



## midnightmarauder

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The incoming HD antenna feed would ideally replace the incoming comcast feed, so that all TVs are fed from the same coax. That would allow you to do moca without a hodge-podge hybrid setup.


I think I get what you are saying. The issue is.. I don't know where the box is or how to access it. I live in a apartment building with 24 units in it. I think my best bet will be to put Ethernet to each box.

If I wanted to could I install Ethernet to the bolt and then split the HD antenna coax into 3 and run each line to the bolt and 2 minis? That's a lot of work too and would require me dropping 3 lines instead of the 1, just curious if I'm understanding this moca right.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Yes you could split the antenna feed and run them to all 3 sets. But it sounds like ethernet is the best bet for simplicity's sake.


----------



## krkaufman

midnightmarauder said:


> I think I get what you are saying. The issue is.. I don't know where the box is or how to access it. I live in a *apartment building with 24 units* in it. I think my best bet will be to put Ethernet to each box.
> 
> If I wanted to could I install Ethernet to the bolt and then split the HD antenna coax into 3 and run each line to the bolt and 2 minis? That's a lot of work too and would require me dropping 3 lines instead of the 1, just curious if I'm understanding this moca right.


Yes, you're understanding it correctly, and your living situation does complicate matters. (Heck, I'm wondering how you'll even be able to put an antenna in the attic and run it to your BOLT!)

As you say, if you'd have to run special lines to the Mini rooms to enable MoCA, why not just run Ethernet.

However...

Whether or not you could use your existing coax lines and wall outlets as your MoCA network depends on how those lines come together elsewhere in your building, and if they could be isolated from the rest of the building's coax plant using a MoCA filter. (e.g. Do all your coax runs originate from an individual splitter somewhere in the basement or attic, or are they just separate runs off some mother-of-all splitters?)

One way of finding out is by taking advantage of Comcast's 30-day money back guarantee and upgrading your Comcast TV service to include the Xfinity X1 DVR at your main TV with a "companion" Xi3 box in at least one of the bedrooms (but why not both!?!). You see... Comcast's X1 DVRs use MoCA to communicate with the mothership and their companion boxes, so the install would prove the MoCA-bility of your coax lines, splitters (and amps?), and the tech would install the necessary MoCA filter on your apartment's PoE to isolate your MoCA network from your neighbors... theoretically.

You'd likely have to eat the tech visit fee, but the equipment and service fees should zero-out if you're not satisfied with the service, and cancel and return everything within 30 days. You could always tell your local Comcast office, up-front, that you're considering going OTA, but are willing to try-out the X1 DVR, so long as the upgrade/install trial doesn't cost you anything.


----------



## krkaufman

Assuming the Comcast tech has proven your coax lines can be used for a MoCA network between all your rooms, how would you go about taking advantage of that for your OTA antenna-fed BOLT?

A *diplexer*, as described in *this recent post by snerd*.

It's an informative, short post, including purchase links, so you'll want to read the whole thing, but here's a key excerpt...


snerd said:


> ... the diplexer passes the OTA signals into the VHF/UHF port while blocking the MoCA signals from reaching the antenna. The diplexer also passes the MoCA signals in through the SAT port while blocking the OTA signals from going out the SAT port. This keeps the OTA and cable signals separated so that they don't clash with each other.
> 
> (image attachment)


In your setup...

that 3-way splitter is hopefully what's in your building's attic/basement, and can have the pictured MoCA filter installed on its input;
you can ignore all that equipment hanging off the left output leg of the 3-way in the diagram, since your Internet connectivity is coming from elsewhere (via your BOLT and router/Fairpoint);
you'll just have a single TiVo Mini hanging off each of those 2 left outputs of the 3-way splitter in the diagram;
your BOLT's coax input would be attached to the output of the diplexer (labeled "IN/OUT" in the diagram), where the "MoCA + OTA coax" signal has been combined;
with an Ethernet connection from your BOLT to your router, and the BOLT configured to create your MoCA network, you would be good-to-go.


----------



## krkaufman

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The *incoming HD antenna feed would ideally replace the incoming comcast feed*, so that all TVs are fed from the same coax. That would allow you to do moca without a hodge-podge hybrid setup.





midnightmarauder said:


> Would you please *draw me a diagram*?


Using the same *diagram referenced in the previous "diplexer" post*, BigJim was just saying that the HD antenna would, ideally, connect to the input of your apartment's main splitter (_wherever that is located!_) -- replacing the "Main Cable Coax" feed in the diagram with "HD OTA Antenna."

In such a scenario, the MoCA "PoE Filter" would still be inserted between the HD antenna and the 3-way splitter, as shown, but _*everything else*_ hanging off the outputs of the 3-way splitter in the diagram could be ignored. You'd just have your Minis and your BOLT connected to each output of the mystery 3-way splitter (with your router-connected BOLT supplying the MoCA network).

p.s. The "hodge-podge hybrid setup" BigJim is referring to, I expect, is something like the diplexer suggestion in my previous post. The simplicity of the "ideal" setup in this post should be obvious.


----------



## jmerr74

Quick question...Im trying to wrapped my head around MOCA I have all the power line stuff I need to use PL but I keep reading about MOCA I want it to be the best possible experience for TV in my house...here's my dilemma. My Family Room TV (where my Roamio will be setup) is split off the main box from my cable modem my cable modem is split off from the main box to my Living Room where my router desktop and Mini will be...plus I'll have two other minis upstairs...so my question is what do I do? How many moca adapters will I need...etc...etc...


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## Random User 7

Can you create a diagram and attach it here for us to review?


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## mdavej

If you have a Roamio Plus or Pro or Fios, you don't need any Moca adapters. Otherwise you only need one at your router.


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## Random User 7

If you have a standard fios install you will have moca. If you are running Ethernet from the ONT you may not.


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## krkaufman

jmerr74 said:


> My Family Room TV (where my Roamio will be setup) is split off the main box from my cable modem my cable modem is split off from the main box to my Living Room where my router desktop and Mini will be...plus I'll have two other minis upstairs...so my question is what do I do? How many moca adapters will I need...etc...etc...


Some background questions, necessary to proceed...

Which Roamio model do you have? (OTA, base 4-tuner, Plus or Pro?)

Who is your TV provider? That is, are you using an OTA antenna, or a particular cable TV provider? (Comcast, FiOS, Charter, Cox, etc?)

Who is your Internet service provider?

You appear to be planning on supplying your own cable modem and router. What are the brand and model for each?

Do you understand the user experience differences between a TiVo DVR and a Mini, and are you fixed on your planned location for the Roamio... Roamio in the Family Room and a Mini in the Living Room... or could the Roamio be setup in the Living Room, instead?

Do you have wired Ethernet connectivity from your router to to any of the other rooms in which you're looking to deploy TiVo devices?

Do you have coax outlets in all the rooms in which you plan to deploy your TiVo devices?

Do you know where all your separate coaxial lines come together, and can you provide any details on the device (spltter?) from which they all emanate? (e.g. brand/model, number of ports, number of unused connections)


----------



## wallywondo

I am a bit confused about Mini and Moca.

In my office, my MINI has an HDMI port to which I connect my TV. Can I also use the Ethernet port on the same MINI to connect to my desktop computer?? Or do I have to use a splitter and another Moca to connect the computer??


----------



## jmerr74

@krkauffman

1. Base 4 Tuner Roamio
2. Comcast
3. Comcast
4. Modem: D-Link 301 Router: D-Link AC-1900
5.I'm not set on the location if the experiences don't differ too much all of our TV viewing is done in family room...most anyway.
6. No Ethernet but I do have Powerline Adapters AV500 and AV2000
7. Yes on the coax in all rooms.
8. Junction box in my house or outside my home? (This is where I get confused). 

For what's it worth, I do have a decent background with networking and such...aside from MOCA. I had never heard of it in my life. I have a box outside my home with a splitter off of it for my living room that did not have a coax connection when we moved in. This is where my router and modem are as well as my desktop. The other side of the splitter runs into my family room and the three other bedrooms (on the second floor). I spoke with someone at Tivo that told me powerline would work, so I may just try that first. For whatever reason MOCA seems difficult to me. My main TV viewing in my family room for my wife needs to be flawless (for my wife). I would actually love wireless as it is the easiest way to go for me...


----------



## krkaufman

jmerr74 said:


> @krkauffman
> 
> 1. Base 4 Tuner Roamio
> 2. Comcast
> 3. Comcast
> 4. Modem: D-Link 301 Router: D-Link AC-1900
> 5.I'm not set on the location if the experiences don't differ too much all of our TV viewing is done in family room...most anyway.
> 6. No Ethernet but I do have Powerline Adapters AV500 and AV2000
> 7. Yes on the coax in all rooms.
> 8. Junction box in my house or outside my home? (This is where I get confused).
> 
> For what's it worth, I do have a decent background with networking and such...aside from MOCA. I had never heard of it in my life. I have a box outside my home with a splitter off of it for my living room that did not have a coax connection when we moved in. This is where my router and modem are as well as my desktop. The other side of the splitter runs into my family room and the three other bedrooms (on the second floor). I spoke with someone at Tivo that told me powerline would work, so I may just try that first. For whatever reason MOCA seems difficult to me. My main TV viewing in my family room for my wife needs to be flawless (for my wife). I would actually love wireless as it is the easiest way to go for me...


Great info. I think that should give anybody sufficient information to help you map a course of action, and with coax in all rooms, you should be able to go full MoCA. I'll give that last paragraph of detail a read and try to get back to you this am.


----------



## krkaufman

Quick info on MoCA...

Good reading:

MoCA Blog FAQ
First post in this thread
TiVO's older "What is MoCA?" page
TiVo's newer "What is MoCA?" page
TiVo's "How to connect your TiVo box to your network and the Internet" page

Just think of MoCA as another networking technology, similar to Wi-Fi or Powerline, but instead of signals traveling over the air wirelessly or via your power lines, the networking signal travels through your coax lines. And similar to these 2 other technologies, you first need to establish an "access point," of sorts, that can bridge the MoCA network traffic from the coax over to your Ethernet LAN and your router.

As a quick bit of background, the 4-tuner Premieres, 6-tuner Roamios and the new 4-tuner BOLT all have built-in MoCA hardware making them able to create a MoCA network on your coax lines. The Mini (both v1 & v2 versions) has the built-in ability to connect to an active MoCA network, though a Mini cannot be used to create a MoCA network. Unfortunately, the Roamio 4-tuner models (base & OTA) have no MoCA hardware built-in, at all, so must rely on external MoCA adapters to provide them connectivity to a MoCA network. (TiVo's corrected this earlier decision by adding full MoCA functionality to the BOLT, the 4-tuner Roamio's replacement.)



jmerr74 said:


> I spoke with someone at Tivo that told me powerline would work, so I may just try that first. For whatever reason MOCA seems difficult to me. My main TV viewing in my family room for my wife needs to be flawless (for my wife). I would actually love wireless as it is the easiest way to go for me...


You'll quickly find that MoCa ain't no thang.  It should also be noted that TiVo officially supports only wired Ethernet or MoCA for multi-room streaming between a TiVo DVR and Mini; wireless or Powerline *can* work, but they're not as reliable and run into trouble much quicker as the number of actively-streaming Minis increases.


----------



## krkaufman

Quick chat about coax cable plant...


jmerr74 said:


> 7. Yes on the coax in all rooms.
> 8. Junction box in my house or outside my home? (This is where I get confused).
> 
> ... I have a box outside my home with a splitter off of it for my living room that did not have a coax connection when we moved in. This is where my router and modem are as well as my desktop. The other side of the splitter runs into my family room and the three other bedrooms (on the second floor).


*Splitters:* MoCA is designed to work over 90+% of old coaxial wiring and older splitters, but MoCa-compatible splitters are preferred, to ensure the best possible signals. What's a MoCA-compatible splitter, you ask? MoCA for cable TV & OTA operates at a higher frequency than the cableTV/OTA signals, so that they can share the coax:

OTA: 40-860 MHz
Cable: 5-1002 MHz
MoCA (D Band): 1125-1675 MHz (*)​So, **IF** you get to the point where your MoCA signals don't seem to be getting through, or your "rates" aren't where you expect, you'll want to review your coax plant for sub-optimal splitters and upgrade them to good quality splitters with a frequency range up to 1675 MHz or better. (Your splitters will almost always have their tested frequency range printed on the label.)

Splitters specifically designed for MoCA, with lower output port isolation at MoCA frequencies, are preferred, such as the Holland GHS-PRO-M models and Verizon's MoCA 2.0-branded splitters. Not all splitters with "MoCA" slapped on the casing are actually designed for MoCA performance; they've simply been tested to function adequately with MoCA in whatever test setup the vendor constructed.

*Amps:* Coax amplifiers not designed for MoCA can block MoCA signals from passing through. There are workarounds, or you can upgrade to a MoCA-compatible amp -- but hopefully you don't have any amps, and it won't be an issue.

*PoE/Cable Box:* Since you'll be sending your network traffic over your coax lines, you'll need to install a special filter, just a short cylinder, called a MoCA filter, to the input of that main splitter in your cable box, at your coax's "point-of-entry" (aka PoE) from the provider, to ensure that your MoCA networking signals remain inside your home. This PoE MoCA filter also acts as a wall, to reflect the MoCA signals back into your home and helps strengthen the signal.

*Modem:* Some modems have issues when MoCA is introduced on the coax lines, so you may need to install a MoCA filter onto the input to your modem, **IF** you start having Internet connectivity issues after enabling your MoCA network. Something to keep in mind when ordering the MoCA filter for your PoE; get 2. (You might be able to grab them free-of-charge from your local Comcast office.) This isn't necessary for all modems, and some modems come with MoCA filters built-in, but a review of the data sheet and user manual for the D-Link DCM-301 cable modem didn't indicate such a built-in MoCA filter (no mention of MoCA, at all, actually).

p.s. The MoCA filters are not mandatory prerequisites in getting your MoCA network running, but you'll want to get a filter installed at the PoE ASAP, and may need one on the modem depending on whether enabling MoCA affects the modem's performance.


----------



## krkaufman

On to your actual setup...


----------



## snerd

wallywondo said:


> I am a bit confused about Mini and Moca.
> 
> In my office, my MINI has an HDMI port to which I connect my TV. Can I also use the Ethernet port on the same MINI to connect to my desktop computer?? Or do I have to use a splitter and another Moca to connect the computer??


I'm assuming you have coax coming into the room but no ethernet.

A Mini can either connect using MoCA through the coax port, or using ethernet. Unfortunately, a Mini cannot bridge from the MoCA network to the ethernet port (I wish it could, since that would make it a more useful device).

So, if you have other equipment that needs ethernet access, you'll need another MoCA adapter. The good news is that if you want to connect other equipment in addition to the computer, you can connect an ethernet switch to the MoCA adapter and plug everything into the switch. Another option is to go directly from the wall to the MoCA adapter, connect a switch to the MoCA adapter, and connect the Mini and the computer (and whatever else) to the switch and change the network settings on the Mini to use ethernet.


----------



## snerd

krkaufman said:


> This PoE MoCA filter also acts as a wall, to reflect the MoCA signals back into your home and helps strengthen the signal.


How shiny are your walls? I like to think of the PoE filter as a mirror. It is just a different kind of mirror, that works at frequencies that are lower than the frequencies received by eyeballs. From a physics perspective, RF signals and visible light are both electromagnetic radiation that obey the same laws of physics per Maxwell's equations.


----------



## krkaufman

jmerr74 said:


> My Family Room TV (where my Roamio will be setup) is split off the main box from my cable modem my cable modem is split off from the main box to my Living Room where my router desktop and Mini will be...plus I'll have two other minis upstairs...so my question is what do I do? How many moca adapters will I need...etc...etc...





jmerr74 said:


> 1. Base 4 Tuner Roamio
> 2. Comcast
> 3. Comcast
> 4. Modem: D-Link 301 Router: D-Link AC-1900
> 5. I'm not set on the location if the experiences don't differ too much all of our TV viewing is done in family room...most anyway.
> 6. No Ethernet ...
> 7. Yes on the coax in all rooms.
> 8. ... I have a box outside my home with a splitter off of it for my living room that did not have a coax connection when we moved in. This is where my router and modem are as well as my desktop. The other side of the splitter runs into my family room and the three other bedrooms (on the second floor). ... My main TV viewing in my family room for my wife needs to be flawless (for my wife).


You should only need 2 MoCA adapters, 1 or 2 MoCA filters, possibly a few MoCA-compatible splitters, and optionally an Ethernet switch. And, as mentioned previously, you may need some additional MoCA-compatible splitters if your existing splitters appear to not be up to the challenge.

*Cable Box (PoE)*

2-way splitter (what frequency range?)
*+ MoCA filter* :: required to secure & strengthen MoCA network; installed on input to 2-way in cable box
*Living Room* (coax ✔)

Cable Modem (D-Link DCM-301)
Router (D-Link AC-1900)
PC Desktop
*TiVo Mini* (Ethernet-connected to router LAN port)
*+ MoCA adapter* :: required to create MoCA network, connected to router LAN and coax
(*+ 2-way splitter* :: documentation suggests connecting the cable modem to the "TV Out" of the MoCA adapter; however, many recommend feeding each device separately via a 2-way splitter)
(*+ MoCA filter* :: as mentioned in previous post, may be needed on input to modem if problems occur; unnecessary if modem is being successfully fed via "TV Out" of MoCA adapter)
*Unknown Location:*

*4-way splitter?* (what frequency range?)
*Family Room* (coax ✔)

*TiVo Roamio basic*
*+ MoCA adapter* :: The 4-tuner Roamio basic doesn't support MoCA natively, and so is dependent on this external MoCA adapter for a wired network connection
(*+ 2-way splitter* :: documentation suggests connecting the Roamio's coax input via the "TV Out" of the MoCA adapter; however, many recommend feeding each device separately via a 2-way splitter)
(*+ Ethernet switch* :: If you have multiple Ethernet-capable devices co-located with the Roamio and its MoCA adapter, the Ethernet port of the MoCA adapter can be connected to an Ethernet switch to provide wired Ethernet connectivity to multiple devices, rather than just the Roamio; though it's probably best to prove Roamio's connectivity via MoCA before inserting the Ethernet switch into the mix.)
*Upstairs Bedroom #1* (coax ✔)

*TiVo Mini* (coax/MoCA-connected)
*Upstairs Bedroom #2* (coax ✔)

*TiVo Mini* (coax/MoCA-connected)

p.s. Ha!, snerd has rather conveniently already laid out the followup note I wanted to add, should you have additional Ethernet-capable devices in the upstairs bedrooms where you'll be installing the MoCA-connected Minis. See *here*, just above this post. Thanks, snerd (and wally)!


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> How shiny are your walls? I like to think of the PoE filter as a mirror. It is just a different kind of mirror, that works at frequencies that are lower than the frequencies received by eyeballs. From a physics perspective, RF signals and visible light are both electromagnetic radiation that obey the same laws of physics per Maxwell's equations.


Yeah, I tend towards the sound/water wave analogy, for the novice, so the walls don't have to be shiny... just solid and vertical. (Change the density or angle of the wall, and you get less efficient reflections of the waves, that is, loss.)


krkaufman said:


> Think of the MoCA signals not as intelligent little rodents that can efficiently find their way through your maze of coax to a tasty cheese reward, but as what they are... waves. The MoCA waves traveling up into a splitter's output can't take a hard right turn back down another leg of the splitter; rather, the waves will travel up the coax until they hit a wall that reflects them back in the direction from which they came (as with water in a swimming pool, bath tub, etc), and will eventually flow back down the other leg of that splitter -- having lost strength with each splitter passed through and every inch of coax traversed. The MoCA "PoE" filter is the wall in this wave analogy ...


edit: p.s. Good reading, snerd.


----------



## jmerr74

krkaufman said:


> You should only need 2 MoCA adapters, 1 or 2 MoCA filters, possibly a few MoCA-compatible splitters, and optionally an Ethernet switch. And, as mentioned previously, you may need some additional MoCA-compatible splitters if your existing splitters appear to not be up to the challenge.
> 
> *Cable Box (PoE)*
> 
> 2-way splitter (what frequency range?)
> *+ MoCA filter* :: required to secure & strengthen MoCA network; installed on input to 2-way in cable box
> *Living Room* (coax ✔)
> 
> Cable Modem (D-Link DCM-301)
> Router (D-Link AC-1900)
> PC Desktop
> *TiVo Mini* (Ethernet-connected to router LAN port)
> *+ MoCA adapter* :: required to create MoCA network, connected to router LAN and coax
> (*+ 2-way splitter* :: documentation suggests connecting the cable modem to the "TV Out" of the MoCA adapter; however, many recommend feeding each device separately via a 2-way splitter)
> (*+ MoCA filter* :: as mentioned in previous post, may be needed on input to modem if problems occur; unnecessary if modem is being successfully fed via "TV Out" of MoCA adapter)
> *Unknown Location:*
> 
> *4-way splitter?* (what frequency range?)
> *Family Room* (coax ✔)
> 
> *TiVo Roamio basic*
> *+ MoCA adapter* :: The 4-tuner Roamio basic doesn't support MoCA natively, and so is dependent on this external MoCA adapter for a wired network connection
> (*+ 2-way splitter* :: documentation suggests connecting the Roamio's coax input via the "TV Out" of the MoCA adapter; however, many recommend feeding each device separately via a 2-way splitter)
> (*+ Ethernet switch* :: If you have multiple Ethernet-capable devices co-located with the Roamio and its MoCA adapter, the Ethernet port of the MoCA adapter can be connected to an Ethernet switch to provide wired Ethernet connectivity to multiple devices, rather than just the Roamio; though it's probably best to prove Roamio's connectivity via MoCA before inserting the Ethernet switch into the mix.)
> *Upstairs Bedroom #1* (coax ✔)
> 
> *TiVo Mini* (coax/MoCA-connected)
> *Upstairs Bedroom #2* (coax ✔)
> 
> *TiVo Mini* (coax/MoCA-connected)
> 
> p.s. Ha!, snerd has rather conveniently already laid out the followup note I wanted to add, should you have additional Ethernet-capable devices in the upstairs bedrooms where you'll be installing the MoCA-connected Minis. See *here*, just above this post. Thanks, snerd (and wally)!


Sooo...basically a couple of splitters two adapters and a filter on my "junction box" outside...I would put the filter in the main line before it splits to the house...very easy setup. I will get that rolling in the next week or so. Honestly, my switch to Tivo it has to be as seamless as possible for my wife. She doesn't take to change easily...I've missed Tivo for a long time. I'm happy to be going back to it. My wife has never had it...but saving $60 a month on rental fees makes it an easier pill to swallow...I will get back to you all after I get it running or if I have any questions...thanks for all the help!


----------



## krkaufman

jmerr74 said:


> Sooo...basically a couple of splitters two adapters and a filter on my "junction box" outside...I would put the filter in the main line before it splits to the house...very easy setup.


Exactly. See... no sweat.



> I've missed Tivo for a long time. I'm happy to be going back to it. My wife has never had it...but *saving $60 a month on rental fees* makes it an easier pill to swallow...


Wait, I should have asked this sooner... Are you already a Comcast X1 DVR customer? And what type of devices are you using in the additional rooms, at present? (i.e. There's a good chance you're already running MoCA, since the Xfinity X1 DVR communicates with its companion devices via MoCA.)

If you *are* using the X1 DVR and companion boxes, note that there may be some issues trying to setup a distinct MoCA network for your TiVos at the same time. On the plus side, *IF* you're already running MoCA, your coax plant has been MoCA-proven and you probably already have the necessary MoCA filter out in the cable box, and your modem's continued functionality has proven that it doesn't need its own MoCA filter.



> my switch to Tivo it has to be as seamless as possible for my wife. She doesn't take to change easily...


To make the switch as transparent as possible, you'll likely want to eat a month's "Additional Outlet" fee and have overlap with your Comcast set-tops, allowing you to get the TiVo solution tested and its DVR primed with some content before pulling your existing solution. It'll also help you learn the UI so you'll be ready to gently guide your family into the new experience. 

You may want to use a staging area, such as the Living Room where the modem/router are, to prep each device (guided setup, software updates, streaming app authentication, etc). This will allow you to prep all the devices using Ethernet, and then tackle the MoCA switchover.



> I will get back to you all after I get it running or if I have any questions...thanks for all the help!


Good luck. May the coax be with you...


----------



## jmerr74

Not running Xfinity...I had planned on keeping everything to make sure it works. Again, thanks for all the solid advice and guidance. I've been building the setup piece by piece...MOCA adapters and filter is next.


----------



## krkaufman

jmerr74 said:


> Not running Xfinity...I had planned on keeping everything to make sure it works. Again, thanks for all the solid advice and guidance. I've been building the setup piece by piece...MOCA adapters and filter is next.


Ah, good. That should let you get the MoCA network running without conflict.

Best of luck...


----------



## krkaufman

As one final side note, some people prefer to isolate all their TiVo streaming traffic to the MoCA segment. If you wished to do the same, you'd need to bump the Living Room splitter to a 2-way (or 3-way) in order to feed coax to the Mini and MoCA adapter (and cable modem) separately.


----------



## wallywondo

When you mention "switch" what do you mean? Is this a part I can order via Amazon?
Wally


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Quick info on MoCA...
> 
> Just think of MoCA as another networking technology, similar to Wi-Fi or Powerline, but instead of signals traveling over the air wirelessly or via your power lines, the networking signal travels through your coax lines. And similar to these 2 other technologies, you first need to establish an "access point," of sorts, that can bridge the MoCA network traffic from the coax over to your Ethernet LAN and your router.
> 
> As a quick bit of background, the 4-tuner Premieres, 6-tuner Roamios and the new 4-tuner BOLT all have built-in MoCA hardware making them able to create a MoCA network on your coax lines. The Mini (both v1 & v2 versions) has the built-in ability to connect to an active MoCA network, though a Mini cannot be used to create a MoCA network. Unfortunately, the Roamio 4-tuner models (base & OTA) have no MoCA hardware built-in, at all, so must rely on external MoCA adapters to provide them connectivity to a MoCA network...


I'd like to get a fuller understanding of what it means to "create a MoCA network," as opposed to "connecting to an active MoCA network." The TiVo "creates" the network by effectively establishing an "access point," you said. Is this what happens when you connect a TiVo to the router by Ethernet, so that the TiVo can bridge Internet Protocol signals between Ethernet and the MoCA network?

So does the "creating" by a TiVo of the MoCA network require a TiVo-to-router Ethernet connection?

But what about MoCA networks that are not created by a TiVo, but by using one or more MoCA network adapters? Is it the adapter that is Ethernet-connected to the router that "creates" the MoCA network?

Thanks in advance ...


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> So does the "creating" by a TiVo of the MoCA network require a TiVo-to-router Ethernet connection?
> 
> But what about MoCA networks that are not created by a TiVo, but by using one or more MoCA network adapters? Is it the adapter that is Ethernet-connected to the router that "creates" the MoCA network?


Yes, that's what's needed for the MoCA segment to reach your router, and through the router, the Internet. However, the "MoCA-creating" device doesn't have to be physically wired, itself, directly to the router, so long as it is wired to the home network.

As an example:

My modem & router are in my office:
- modem is connected to coax wall outlet
- modem is Ethernet-wired to WAN port of router
- a router LAN port is connected to Ethernet jack in wall outlet*

My Roamio Plus is in my living room:
- Roamio Plus is connected to coax wall outlet
- Roamio Plus is connected to Ethernet jack in wall outlet*

* Ethernet jacks connect via Cat6 to central Ethernet switch in basement

My Roamio Plus is used to create my MoCA network, allowing Minis in locations without an Ethernet jack, but with coax available, to connect via MoCA to my LAN and Internet.


----------



## krkaufman

wallywondo said:


> When you mention "switch" what do you mean? Is this a part I can order via Amazon?


An "Ethernet switch"...


snerd said:


> So, if you have other equipment that needs ethernet access, you'll need another MoCA adapter. The good news is that if you want to connect other equipment in addition to the computer, you can connect an *ethernet switch* to the MoCA adapter and plug everything into the switch. Another option is to go directly from the wall to the MoCA adapter, connect a switch to the MoCA adapter, and connect the Mini and the computer (and whatever else) to the switch and change the network settings on the Mini to use ethernet.


... and yes, you can buy one via Amazon. *See this post* for a cheap one that has been used successfully. Or widen your search.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> So does the "creating" by a TiVo of the MoCA network require a TiVo-to-router Ethernet connection?


I believe you can tell your TiVo to create a MoCA network even without a working connection to your router's LAN ports; you just wouldn't want to.

And, to be honest, I'm not fully aware of the mystery behind "create a MoCA network" on a TiVo DVR, either. I've been meaning to do some reading on that.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> ... And, to be honest, I'm not fully aware of the mystery behind "create a MoCA network" on a TiVo DVR, either. I've been meaning to do some reading on that.


Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. I tried to Google the phrase "create a MoCA network" with and without prefixing "TiVo" and could not find any definitive information.


----------



## solstice

krkaufman said:


> ...
> 
> *Amps:* Coax amplifiers not designed for MoCA can block MoCA signals from passing through. There are workarounds, or you can upgrade to a MoCA-compatible amp -- but hopefully you don't have any amps, and it won't be an issue.
> 
> ...


Given the design as discussed in this thread and in my case the need for such an amplifier (3 way) can someone recommend (provide a link to) one?


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> I'd like to get a fuller understanding of what it means to "create a MoCA network," as opposed to "connecting to an active MoCA network." The TiVo "creates" the network by effectively establishing an "access point," you said. Is this what happens when you connect a TiVo to the router by Ethernet, so that the TiVo can bridge Internet Protocol signals between Ethernet and the MoCA network?
> 
> So does the "creating" by a TiVo of the MoCA network require a TiVo-to-router Ethernet connection?
> 
> But what about MoCA networks that are not created by a TiVo, but by using one or more MoCA network adapters? Is it the adapter that is Ethernet-connected to the router that "creates" the MoCA network?
> 
> Thanks in advance ...


Briefly, a MoCA network consists of two or more MoCA devices that are connected to the same coax "tree". One of the MoCA devices (could be a MoCA adapter, or MoCA capable cable modem, or some TiVo models) needs to act as the NC (network controller). The NC can be thought of as "creating" the MoCA network. The NC acts as a referee to ensure that all of the MoCA devices cooperate. The network uses TDMA (time division muti-access) which means that only one device tries to transmit data at any one time. The NC handles all of the scheduling of MoCA traffic by assigning time slots to each device, so that each device knows when it is allowed to transmit data without clashing with data from any of the other devices.

The MoCA standards include protocols that determine which MoCA device becomes the NC. I don't know all of the details, it may be the first device that powers up, or it may depend (partly) on whether bridging is enabled. It is temping to say that the NC will be the device that bridges ethernet signals onto the coax, but it isn't that simple because there can be more than one active bridge talking to the same MoCA network (for example, one bridge to the home network, with a second bridge to feed a switch that connects several devices and passes their signals through the MoCA network). There may also be protocols in place to transfer NC status to a different device so that the "most appropriate" device ultimately becomes NC (pure speculation here).  I would think the MoCA networks that have a mix of MoCA 1.0, MoCA 1.1 and/or MoCA 2.0 devices would need to have a MoCA 2.0 device as the NC in order to operate properly.

MoCA networks for TiVo usually include internet access so that the TiVos can phone home to download updates, guide information, etc. However, I don't believe it is technically necessary for a MoCA network to make a connection to an external network. This is certainly a useful thing to do so that MoCA devices can communicate with computers and other equipment that is not directly attached to the coax, but I think it would be possible to have an isolated network that consists entirely of MoCA devices. Perhaps someone will correct this if I'm mistaken.


----------



## mdavej

snerd said:


> ...I think it would be possible to have an isolated network that consists entirely of MoCA devices. Perhaps someone will correct this if I'm mistaken.


It is. I did it yesterday while setting up a new Moca network. As soon as I had two Moca devices connected and powered up the Moca network was created. But I can't imagine why anyone with Tivo would ever want to do this.


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> Briefly, a MoCA network ... One of the MoCA devices (could be a MoCA adapter, or MoCA capable cable modem, or some TiVo models) needs to act as the NC (network controller). The NC can be thought of as "creating" the MoCA network. The NC acts as a referee to ensure that all of the MoCA devices cooperate. ...


The relationship between this term, "network controller," and what we see in a Mini's "Network Status" dialog, "Co-ordinator MAC," is one reason I was hesitant to respond, and felt the need to do more research. (I'm pretty sure I was seeing my Mini's MAC listed as the "co-ordinator," the other day.)

That, and a lack of understanding of what exactly is being tweaked when the user chooses "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" versus "Connect using MoCA." (We know the TiVo can bridge between MoCA & Ethernet when you just choose "Connect using MoCA," given what happens when you attach an isolated switch to the Ethernet port. So what's the difference between the 2 settings?)


----------



## snerd

krkaufman said:


> The relationship between this term, "network controller," and what we see in a Mini's "Network Status" dialog, "Co-ordinator MAC," is one reason I was hesitant to respond, and felt the need to do more research. (I'm pretty sure I was seeing my Mini's MAC listed as the "co-ordinator," the other day.)
> 
> That, and a lack of understanding of what exactly is being tweaked when the user chooses "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" versus "Connect using MoCA." (We know the TiVo can bridge between MoCA & Ethernet when you just choose "Connect using MoCA," given what happens when you attach an isolated switch to the Ethernet port. So what's the difference between the 2 settings?)


I suspect the only difference is that "Connect using MoCA" leaves the ethernet signals (if any) independent from the MoCA signals (if any), while "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" merely enables bridging between ethernet and MoCA. I believe the MoCA devices are solely responsible for deciding which device is the NC, and it is up to the user to ensure that no ethernet loops are created. Of course, I could be entirely wrong here.


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> I suspect the only difference is that "Connect using MoCA" leaves the ethernet signals (if any) independent from the MoCA signals (if any), while "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" merely enables bridging between ethernet and MoCA. I believe the MoCA devices are solely responsible for deciding which device is the NC, and it is up to the user to ensure that no ethernet loops are created. Of course, I could be entirely wrong here.


Thanks for your interesting discussion of what creating a MoCA network actually means, in post #1079. The idea that the creator of the MoCA network becomes the NC (network controller) that serves to keep order among the other MoCA devices is what I was hoping to learn.

I'm wondering whether your implication in the above quote is that TiVo boxes that simply "Connect using MoCA" don't allow Ethernet devices or networks to be connected to them, in that they don't bridge between MoCA and Ethernet.

I have Verizon FiOS, and I believe it is the Verizon router that is the MoCA NC. So my Bolt simply uses "Connect using MoCA," and I do use it to bridge to an Ethernet switch that connects to several other devices. It works well.

As for Ethernet loops, I originally connected my Ethernet switch to a Verizon Wi-Fi network extender that I had previously installed. Big mistake. It meant the extender was doubly connected to my router, once through coax alone and once through the Ethernet-to-MoCA bridge in the Bolt. That bollixed up networking on the Bolt and at least one of my other devices until I corrected the problem. After I got all the other devices sorted out, I experimentally tried reconnecting the extender to the switch, and this time the router crashed.

(I admit that I am fuzzy on networking concepts, so you will just have to bear with me.)


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> The relationship between this term, "network controller," and what we see in a Mini's "Network Status" dialog, "Co-ordinator MAC," is one reason I was hesitant to respond, and felt the need to do more research. (I'm pretty sure I was seeing my Mini's MAC listed as the "co-ordinator," the other day.)
> 
> That, and a lack of understanding of what exactly is being tweaked when the user chooses "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" versus "Connect using MoCA." (We know the TiVo can bridge between MoCA & Ethernet when you just choose "Connect using MoCA," given what happens when you attach an isolated switch to the Ethernet port. So what's the difference between the 2 settings?)


I agree that the "Co-ordinator MAC" shown in a TiVo's "Network Status" dialog is not necessarily a MAC address of a TiVo or other device originally used to "create" a MoCA network.

I tracked down the "Co-ordinator MAC" shown by my Bolt, Roamio Plus, and Mini to the Verizon network extender I installed a few weeks ago as a way to improve Wi-Fi performance. (I did so by, as network administrator, examining in a browser my Verizon FiOS router's network information.) However, before I had ever installed the network extender, I believe it was my Verizon router that had "created" my MoCA network.

I next unplugged the network extender. The "Co-ordinator MAC" shown by my Bolt changed to a MAC address that was the same as that of the Bolt, except that the last two digits were different. This suggested to me that the "MoCA MAC address" of a TiVo or other MoCA device is capable of being slightly different (in the last two digits) from the ordinary MAC address of the device.

Then I plugged the network extender back in, and about a minute later my Bolt's reported "Co-ordinator MAC" address abruptly flipped back, right before my watchful eyes, to that of the network extender.

So the "Co-ordinator MAC" is a designation that can get dynamically tossed around the MoCA network like a beach ball. I do not know for sure whether or not "Co-ordinator MAC" is synonymous with NC (network controller), but I suspect it may be.

I also suspect that when a MoCA device "creates" a MoCA network, it either becomes the initial network controller or decides which other device on the network becomes the initial network controller.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> I'm wondering whether your implication in the above quote is that TiVo boxes that simply "Connect using MoCA" don't allow Ethernet devices or networks to be connected to them, in that they don't bridge between MoCA and Ethernet.
> 
> I have Verizon FiOS, and I believe it is the Verizon router that is the MoCA NC. So my Bolt simply uses "Connect using MoCA," and I do use it to bridge to an Ethernet switch that connects to several other devices. It works well.


Interesting. I would have predicted that a Bolt set to "Connect using MoCA" would just ignore the ethernet port, and not pass signals from/to the MoCA network. I'm guessing that if you change to "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" the system will behave the same as it does now. Perhaps with "Connect using MoCA" the Bolt watches for ethernet signals and enables bridging in order to "do the right thing" (kind of cool if they do that). I wonder if Roamio Plus/Pro and Premiere XL4 units also behave this way.

Seems like they could have a "just figure out how to connect" option


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> I next unplugged the network extender. The "Co-ordinator MAC" shown by my Bolt changed to a MAC address that was the same as that of the Bolt, except that the last two digits were different. This suggested to me that the "MoCA MAC address" of a TiVo or other MoCA device is capable of being slightly different (in the last two digits) from the ordinary MAC address of the device.
> 
> Then I plugged the network extender back in, and about a minute later my Bolt's reported "Co-ordinator MAC" address abruptly flipped back, right before my watchful eyes, to that of the network extender.
> 
> So the "Co-ordinator MAC" is a designation that can get dynamically tossed around the MoCA network like a beach ball. I do not know for sure whether or not "Co-ordinator MAC" is synonymous with NC (network controller), but I suspect it may be.
> 
> I also suspect that when a MoCA device "creates" a MoCA network, it either becomes the initial network controller or decides which other device on the network becomes the initial network controller.


Great experiments, really interesting results. I agree that "Co-ordingator MAC" might be synonymous with NC, but I find it really interesting that your network extender would assume that role. Does that network extender have MoCA support? If not, that would imply that the MoCA Co-ordinator doesn't even need to be a MoCA device 

I knew that my Roamio Plus had separate MAC addresses for MoCA and ethernet. My Co-ordinator MAC appears to be the MoCA adapter that is attached to a TiVo Premiere, rather than the Roamio Plus that is creating the MoCA network. Perhaps the main purpose of the network connection options is to select which MAC address is used to phone home.

My ethernet router sees the ethernet MAC of my Roamio, the ethernet MAC of my Premiere, and a MAC for the Mini (not sure if it is ethernet or MoCA MAC).

Your experiments might confirm my suspicion that the NC can be updated as new MoCA devices are added/removed.


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> Interesting. I would have predicted that a Bolt set to "Connect using MoCA" would just ignore the ethernet port, and not pass signals from/to the MoCA network. I'm guessing that if you change to "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" the system will behave the same as it does now. Perhaps with "Connect using MoCA" the Bolt watches for ethernet signals and enables bridging in order to "do the right thing" (kind of cool if they do that).


A TiVO DVR *must not* be configured with the "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" option unless it is physically wired to be _the_ bridge between MoCA and the Ethernet "LAN" ports on your router.

I was of the same viewpoint, quoted above, earlier in this thread, here, but have since been educated otherwise, though I'm not currently able to locate the definitive posts.



snerd said:


> Seems like they could have a "just figure out how to connect" option


Agreed! (But mostly because, as mentioned, I don't know what the heck MoCA configuration flags are being toggled when choosing one option versus the other.)


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> Does that network extender have MoCA support? If not, that would imply that the MoCA Co-ordinator doesn't even need to be a MoCA device


The network extender is an Actiontec WCB3000N that has been rebranded by Verizon. It does have MoCA support:

http://www.actiontec.com/305.html



snerd said:


> Your experiments might confirm my suspicion that the NC can be updated as new MoCA devices are added/removed.


I likewise suspect that the TiVo's "MoCA co-ordinator" (which may be equivalent to the MoCA network controller) gets updated to the most recent MoCA device that has been added to the network.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> A TiVO DVR *must not* be configured with the "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" option unless it is physically wired to be _the_ bridge between MoCA and the Ethernet "LAN" ports on your router.


I find that very interesting and would hope you can locate the earlier info on how you discovered and/or determined this!


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> I find that very interesting and would hope you can locate the earlier info on how you discovered and/or determined this!


Feel free to post links here if you find it first!


----------



## mdavej

epstewart said:


> I find that very interesting and would hope you can locate the earlier info on how you discovered and/or determined this!





krkaufman said:


> Feel free to post links here if you find it first!


Isn't this just logic?

Why would you want a device not connected to your LAN to create your Moca network? Why would you have more than one device create your Moca network?

This thread has taken something very simple and made it very complicated. Moca should be plug and play if you use a little common sense. You need at least one Moca device connected to your LAN over ethernet and all other Moca devices connected to each other over coax. That's essentially all you need to worry about. POE filters and tuning adapters add a few wrinkles. But even that is very well documented in this forum.

I'm a complete idiot, yet I managed to set up my Moca network in about 10 minutes. And most of that time was spent looking in my closet trying to find all the cables and splitters I needed.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> A TiVO DVR *must not* be configured with the "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" option unless it is physically wired to be _the_ bridge between MoCA and the Ethernet "LAN" ports on your router.


After thinking about this some more, I wonder if it maybe should be generalized to say that whatever MoCA device "creates" the MoCA network needs to be Ethernet-connected to the router.

This can be a TiVo, but if the TiVo is not in the right room and there is no convenient way to run Ethernet Cat5/Cat6 to it, it can also be a MoCA network adapter that is in the same room as the router (as long as there is coax in that room, of course).


----------



## mdavej

epstewart said:


> After thinking about this some more, I wonder if it maybe should be generalized to say that whatever MoCA device "creates" the MoCA network needs to be Ethernet-connected to the router.
> 
> This can be a TiVo, but if the TiVo is not in the right room and there is no convenient way to run Ethernet Cat5/Cat6 to it, it can also be a MoCA network adapter that is in the same room as the router (as long as there is coax in that room, of course).


I have no Tivos or Moca adapters anywhere near my router. One just needs to be on your LAN, doesn't matter where it's physically located.


----------



## epstewart

mdavej said:


> Isn't this just logic?
> 
> Why would you want a device not connected to your LAN to create your Moca network? Why would you have more than one device create your Moca network?
> 
> This thread has taken something very simple and made it very complicated. Moca should be plug and play if you use a little common sense. You need at least one Moca device connected to your LAN over ethernet and all other Moca devices connected to each other over coax. That's essentially all you need to worry about. POE filters and tuning adapters add a few wrinkles. But even that is very well documented in this forum.
> 
> I'm a complete idiot, yet I managed to set up my Moca network in about 10 minutes. And most of that time was spent looking in my closet trying to find all the cables and splitters I needed.


You're taking an eminently practical approach! Nothing wrong with it, but I have been trying to "look under the covers" to understand how MoCA networking actually functions. And I was wondering whether the (at least) one MoCA device connected to the LAN over Ethernet has to be the device that "creates" the MoCA network. Did you use your MoCA network "creator" as your LAN connection?

I don't really have a LAN. I have Verizon FiOS, whose router is the MoCA network creator. But I have now added an Ethernet patch cable out of my Bolt to an Ethernet switch, with more patch cables running to an Apple TV, a PlayStation 3, etc. When I was researching this, I got real confused by the advice I read in various places implying I had to run Ethernet from my Bolt to my router. True, the original post in this thread states that Verizon FiOS is an exception, but I did not find this thread until I was given the wrong impression entirely.


----------



## epstewart

mdavej said:


> I have no Tivos or Moca adapters anywhere near my router. One just needs to be on your LAN, doesn't matter where it's physically located.


OK, thanks. I made my last post in this thread before I read this one ...


----------



## krkaufman

mdavej said:


> This thread has taken something very simple and made it very complicated. Moca should be plug and play if you use a little common sense. You need at least one Moca device connected to your LAN over ethernet and all other Moca devices connected to each other over coax.


Right, it *should* be simple, but mistakes and misconfigurations can happen. Just look at what you just wrote.
_"You need *at least one Moca device *connected to your LAN over ethernet ..."_​
So there's no problem having multiple MoCA devices bridging between the MoCA segment and your Ethernet LAN? That's great. So I might be able to setup 2 or more MoCA devices to bridge, so that all my MoCA devices can keep communicating even during an outage of one of the MoCA bridges. I'll have to look into that.



mdavej said:


> Why would you want a device not connected to your LAN to create your Moca network? Why would you have more than one device create your Moca network?


And the "very complicated" tangent you're complaining about isn't all that complicated, either; it's just discussing the non-standard "pro tip" referenced in BigJim's OP, connecting an Ethernet switch to the otherwise unused Ethernet port of a compatible MoCA-connected TiVo DVR, to provide wired network connectivity to additional devices via the DVR's MoCA bridge.

The only complication is not entirely understanding what is happening, under the hood, in configuring a TiVo DVR to create a MoCA network versus merely connecting to one, and why using the "create" option must be avoided when setting-up an isolated switch in this manner. I know when I first began working with the TiVo DVR's MoCA feature, I was of the view that the "create" option simply told the DVR to enable bridging between MoCA and Ethernet, and so it would obviously need to be used to enable bridging to an isolated Ethernet switch, as well. Not so much. The simple bridging is enabled so long as you're connected via MoCA and have connected something to the DVR's Ethernet port.

Granted, perhaps such a discussion should be held outside the more practical "how to" context of this thread.

p.s. Re:


mdavej said:


> Moca should be plug and play ...


Yes, plug-and-play would be great, except it's the very fact that the TiVo user is faced with making this choice to "create" or "connect" in regards to MoCA that precludes it. The Actiontec adapters, on the other hand, *are* pretty much plug-and-play, barring special circumstances.

We'd be much better off if the TiVos could work more like the Actiontec adapter's and automatically figure-out what they need to do, once we toggle the "Enable/Disable MoCA" option in the UI, or as snerd put it...


snerd said:


> Seems like they could have a "just figure out how to connect" option


----------



## mdavej

I appreciate the info in this thread, but over 1000 posts on something so simple is mind boggling.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> After thinking about this some more, I wonder if it maybe should be generalized to say that whatever MoCA device "creates" the MoCA network needs to be Ethernet-connected to the router.


As mdavej commented, this makes it sound like the MoCA bridge needs to be Ethernet-connected directly to the router. It doesn't. It *does* need to be connected to the router's LAN, though, whether directly or via a connected Ethernet switch.



epstewart said:


> This can be a TiVo, but if the TiVo is not in the right room and there is no convenient way to run Ethernet Cat5/Cat6 to it, it can also be a MoCA network adapter that is in the same room as the router (as long as there is coax in that room, of course).


Right. Your MoCA bridge device just needs access to your MoCA-compatible coax plant and your router's LAN (presuming you want Internet access), which means you'll need an Ethernet connection available *somewhere* -- but that's because all current MoCA adapters (including those built-in to the TiVos) bridge between MoCA and wired Ethernet. (Well, except for the gateway modems that are doing so internally.)

Dan203, for one, is hoping to someday be able to bridge between MoCA and Wi-Fi, removing the Ethernet requirement, and Ira Bahr indicated this was something that TiVo engineers were looking into. (see here) From a bandwidth perspective, the bulk of the traffic/bandwidth, Multi-Room Streaming, would still be via wired networking, presuming they don't also expand to officially supporting wireless Mini clients.


----------



## krkaufman

mdavej said:


> I appreciate the info in this thread, but over 1000 posts on something so simple is mind boggling.


Perhaps not everyone is so blessed and can use a little help.

p.s. Your count is only for the posts to this thread, alone; I think there may be a few other "seeking MoCA help" threads that might benefit from a good, old school chastisement.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> I got real confused by the advice I read in various places implying I had to run Ethernet from my Bolt to my router. True, the original post in this thread states that Verizon FiOS is an exception


Comcast's latest Xfinity gateways (cable modem/wireless router combos) are also an exception, since they come with MoCA 2.0 bridging as a feature. And there are a few other retail cable gateways, now, that also have MoCA bridging capability.

What I haven't seen is any cable modem-only device that has both WAN and LAN Ethernet ports that would allow you to make the necessary Ethernet connections to a standalone router and have the modem, already connected to coax by necessity, handle the Ethernet to MoCA bridging. Probably best, allowing the user to pick their preferred MoCA flavor, much as they do for the router.



> ... but I did not find this thread until I was given the wrong impression entirely.


Yes, to say that anything is well-documented simply because it is mentioned somewhere within the contents of a discussion forum is a stretch. This forum, and others like it, would benefit from a Wiki that catalogs the accumulated knowledge into a more organized, useful format. Or maybe just more helpful, maintained posts like BigJim's OP in this thread.


----------



## snerd

krkaufman said:


> A TiVO DVR *must not* be configured with the "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" option unless it is physically wired to be _the_ bridge between MoCA and the Ethernet "LAN" ports on your router.
> 
> I was of the same viewpoint, quoted above, earlier in this thread, here, but have since been educated otherwise, though I'm not currently able to locate the definitive posts.


I hope someone finds those definitive posts so that I can become as convinced as you are. I followed your link (and another) to end up here and read posts. In particular, message #14 which includes the following:

"After I repeated tests to make sure that the downstairs was still working fine and living with it for a couple of hours I then went back and plugged the ethernet into the back of the Roamio to feed the other devices in the AV cabinet. At this point, the network panel started saying that it was using "MoCA + ethernet" even though I hadn't told it to bridge. I'm hoping that doesn't mean it will start trying to take over the MoCa network, but all my testing showed that the MoCa to the downstairs is still working fine."

If you read the entire thread, it sounds like setting "Connect using MoCA" while devices are connected to the ethernet port results in the TiVo automatically changing the connection to "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" in order to bridge the signals. Unfortunately, I only have one TiVo with built-in MoCA bridging, so I can't do any experiments to verify any of this on my own.


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> I hope someone finds those definitive posts so that I can become as convinced as you are. I followed your link (and another) to end up here and read posts. In particular, message #14 which includes the following:
> 
> "After I repeated tests to make sure that the downstairs was still working fine and living with it for a couple of hours I then went back and plugged the ethernet into the back of the Roamio to feed the other devices in the AV cabinet. At this point, the network panel started saying that it was using "MoCA + ethernet" even though I hadn't told it to bridge. I'm hoping that doesn't mean it will start trying to take over the MoCa network, but all my testing showed that the MoCa to the downstairs is still working fine."
> 
> If you read the entire thread, it sounds like setting "Connect using MoCA" while devices are connected to the ethernet port results in the TiVo automatically changing the connection to "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network" in order to bridge the signals. Unfortunately, I only have one TiVo with built-in MoCA bridging, so I can't do any experiments to verify any of this on my own.


No, we're on the same page (I believe) and the post you quote, this one, confirms that the test setup did NOT use the "create" option:


flar said:


> At this point, the network panel started saying that it was using "MoCA + ethernet" even though I hadn't told it to bridge.


That the network status info automatically updates to reflect "Ethernet + MoCA" when something is connected to the otherwise-unused Ethernet port of a MoCA-connected TiVo reflects that the TiVo is now bridging traffic; it does not mean the TiVo has completely switched itself over to whatever mystery configuration is enabled when you select the "create" option (i.e. "Use this DVR to create a MoCA network").

And how the poster phrased that statement tells me that they were under the same impression I used to be, that the "create" option was simply a paraphrased way of saying "enable MoCA bridging." There *must* be something more to it, since using the "create" option when connecting an isolated Ethernet device to the Ethernet port of a MoCA-connected TiVo DVR can kill the MoCA network, while doing so having selected the "connect" option does not.

p.s. I'll give the whole thread a read, but the above is my interpretation of the cited posts, and how they mesh with this thread's recent posts. (Praise the lords, it's only 1 page/15 posts; it'll be much easier to get through than I was expecting.)


----------



## krkaufman

flar said:


> If I were running the TiVo in pure "just connect via MoCA", then I would be surprised if it was trying to create its own network, but I'm trying to get it to be the "MoCA adapter" for the AV switch in the LR *so I have it on "make a MoCA to Ethernet bridge" mode*. I'm hoping that makes a bidirectional bridge without trying to control things on the coax that it isn't supposed to control. But, that seems to be the most likely point of failure for the symptoms I'm seeing unless someone else here is using a Plus or Pro in this same configuration?


This post (#3) confirms that in the OP's initial problematic setup they had used the "create" option -- and that they were under the same misguided impression I was that it just meant "enable bridging," and the TiVo would be smart enough to handle the rest, just like standalone MoCA adapters do.

And as an aside, the following post from that thread echoes my experiences with the TiVo network configuration dialog, that it can be tricky and that you shouldn't assume that whatever changes you try to make will be smoothly applied. It can be a wrestling match, at times, in my brief experience.


flar said:


> The networking on the Roamios seems a bit off. Twice this evening I switched it to WiFi and it still said "Ethernet" in the network status. After the first time I had to restart the TiVo and it came back up in MoCA bridge mode so it didn't seem to remember the switch to WiFi.


And this just seemed cruel...


ltxi said:


> I live in a 4-br ranch with an unfinished basement used as workshop and storage space. Also comms lives down there. Ethernet anywhere I care to punch a hole in the floor. I am blessed.


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> I hope someone finds those definitive posts so that I can become as convinced as you are. I followed your link (and another) to end up here ...


p.s. I'd say that thread is pretty definitive on the issue, if not exactly concise.


----------



## Random User 7

epstewart said:


> I don't really have a LAN. I have Verizon FiOS, whose router is the MoCA network creator. But I have now added an Ethernet patch cable out of my Bolt to an Ethernet switch, with more patch cables running to an Apple TV, a PlayStation 3, etc. When I was researching this, I got real confused by the advice I read in various places implying I had to run Ethernet from my Bolt to my router. True, the original post in this thread states that Verizon FiOS is an exception, but I did not find this thread until I was given the wrong impression entirely.


you've created a LAN


----------



## f0gax

I'm going to apologize in advance for being "that guy", but this is a long thread with a lot of occurrences of the words I'd be searching on...

I have FiOS with their router which is connected with coax.
I have a 4-tuner Roamio with wired Ethernet to the router.

If I wanted to add a Mini do I need a MoCA adapter? Or am I ready to go?

Based on a scan of some of the replies I think I am, but I want to make sure.

Thank you.


----------



## epstewart

Random User 7 said:


> you've created a LAN


True. But it doesn't connect to my router (except via my Bolt that has joined  but not created  a MoCA network).

Also, I don't see why a MoCA network itself shouldn't be called a LAN.

I am seeing much talk of bridges and bridging in the interesting discussions in the previous several posts. We know now, don't we all, that the TiVo acts as a bridge between MoCA and Ethernet if it, the TiVo, is set up to join a MoCA network? It doesn't have to create the MoCA network to be a bridge, but it will in fact serve as a bridge when it is set up to create the network. So there are two MoCA-related setup options that make it a bridge. Hence, using the "create" option does something more than just enabling bridging.

What is that something? It seems to be to "kick off" the use of MoCA protocols on the coax network, just as the opening kickoff in a football game gets things going for the first time. MoCA protocols require that some MoCA device on the network always be acting as "network controller" (NC) so as to time-slice usage of the network to avoid collisions. TiVo boxes seem to equate the NC with the "MoCA co-ordinator."

My experiments earlier in this thread showed that the "MoCA co-ordinator" function moves to another device if the present "MoCA co-ordinator" is powered off. This implies to me that the MoCA NC is not always one particular device, and hence it is not necessarily always the device that "creates" the network.

My "MoCA co-ordinator" is actually a MoCA-enabled Wi-Fi network extender I got from Verizon. And my MoCA network was "created" by my Verizon MoCA-enabled router. My Bolt simply joined that network, and yet it bridges from MoCA to an Ethernet switch for the benefit of my other entertainment toys.

Here are my two questions. If I ditched my Verizon FiOS router and got one that's not intrinsically MoCA-friendly, and I ran an Ethernet cable from a coax-connected MoCA network adapter to that router, would that adapter automatically realize that it has to re-create my MoCA network? And if that's what it would do, then why doesn't the TiVo automatically do the same thing when it is told to join a MoCA network?


----------



## epstewart

f0gax said:


> I'm going to apologize in advance for being "that guy", but this is a long thread with a lot of occurrences of the words I'd be searching on...
> 
> I have FiOS with their router which is connected with coax.
> I have a 4-tuner Roamio with wired Ethernet to the router.
> 
> If I wanted to add a Mini do I need a MoCA adapter? Or am I ready to go?
> 
> Based on a scan of some of the replies I think I am, but I want to make sure.
> 
> Thank you.


I believe you have to use a MoCA network adapter with your basic Roamio if you add a Mini. The 4-tuner Roamio will "feed" the Mini over MoCA, but it doesn't have on-board MoCA support. That's why you need the adapter. Other posters may know a way around this requirement, but I do not.


----------



## mdavej

f0gax said:


> I'm going to apologize in advance for being "that guy", but this is a long thread with a lot of occurrences of the words I'd be searching on...
> 
> I have FiOS with their router which is connected with coax.
> I have a 4-tuner Roamio with wired Ethernet to the router.
> 
> If I wanted to add a Mini do I need a MoCA adapter? Or am I ready to go?
> 
> Based on a scan of some of the replies I think I am, but I want to make sure.
> 
> Thank you.


You are ready to go. No adapter required. Just pick the Moca connection method in the network settings on the Mini.

The Roamio's existing ethernet connection to the router is all that's needed to "feed" the Mini. The Fios router is already the Moca bridge. I think the previous poster missed the Fios detail. If you didn't have Fios, you would indeed need a Moca adapter bridging your coax and ethernet LAN and creating the Moca network.


----------



## snerd

f0gax said:


> I'm going to apologize in advance for being "that guy", but this is a long thread with a lot of occurrences of the words I'd be searching on...
> 
> I have FiOS with their router which is connected with coax.
> I have a 4-tuner Roamio with wired Ethernet to the router.
> 
> If I wanted to add a Mini do I need a MoCA adapter? Or am I ready to go?
> 
> Based on a scan of some of the replies I think I am, but I want to make sure.
> 
> Thank you.


You probably don't need a MoCA adapter. FiOS systems usually create a MoCA network. As long as you can make a wired Ethernet connection to the Roamio, you can add a Mini using either a wired connection to the eithernet port or by connecting it to coax and enabling MoCA on the Mini.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> True. But it doesn't connect to my router (except via my Bolt that has joined - but not created - a MoCA network).
> 
> Also, I don't see why a MoCA network itself shouldn't be called a LAN.
> ...
> Here are my two questions. If I ditched my Verizon FiOS router and got one that's not intrinsically MoCA-friendly, and I ran an Ethernet cable from a coax-connected MoCA network adapter to that router, would that adapter automatically realize that it has to re-create my MoCA network? And if that's what it would do, then why doesn't the TiVo automatically do the same thing when it is told to join a MoCA network?


Technically, if you have two or more devices that communicate via ethernet signals, then you have a LAN, and MoCA devices can be part of the LAN.

If you ditched the FiOS router (or just disabled MoCA on the router) and added a MoCA adapter to create the network, then it should work pretty much the same.

It seems like a TiVo with MoCA enabled might behave the same way as an external MoCA adapter. If you can figure out how to disable the FiOS MoCA, then you could do some more experiments.


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> You probably don't need a MoCA adapter. FiOS systems usually create a MoCA network. As long as you can make a wired Ethernet connection to the Roamio, you can add a Mini using either a wired connection to the eithernet port or by connecting it to coax and enabling MoCA on the Mini.


OK, I stand corrected. I now think this is correct, as is the previous post by sdavej. I did not originally realize that a Roamio-to-FiOS-router Ethernet connection would obviate the need for a MoCA adapter. Best of luck ...


----------



## jmerr74

KrKaufman, thank you for your help; to continue in here...I looked at the access box in my house and the junction box outside my house. Now, I have two lines entering my house...when I moved in I had another cable line installed, into my living room because we did not have a cable line for a living room TV. That line was split off the main line from the junction box (outside) into my house, once it gets into my house there is a splitter one to my modem and the other to my TV. 

For the rest of the outlets in my house, a line leaves the junction box and goes directly into my access box (in my wife's closet, upstairs) which has an amplifier that they are all plugged into which in turn is plugged into a coax A/C adapter (if you unplug you will lose it all, I may be mistaken how the exact works, it may goto the adapter then into amplifier/splitter, just think of regular use). There is also an A/C plug in the box that I can plug something into if needed. I will also add, I cannot get into the outside box...

NOW...my question is...what in the HECK do I do? I would seem to me, that the extra line I had installed would be its own little island while the rest of the outlets would work perfect? Or does it even matter if it was split off the main line? Do I just need one Netgear or Actiontech (set meaning two adapters) to get it to work? Please answer in layman's terms...I am getting a headache from all of it, I just want the easiest setup as possible. Or as I said I may just give powerline a whirl, I have A/V 2000's ready to use....or am I overthinking this? Should I just buy the damn things and get on with it?

My issue is I had never heard of MOCA before and I am trying wrap my head around it, it doesn't make sense like Wi-Fi/LAN networks do.


----------



## nickels

I am trying to figure this out, but the details are so confusing when it comes to specific components and what is needed.

I have a Roamio - not plus or pro. It is hard wired my router via Ethernet.
I have Fios. Just purchased a TiVo Mini, now the confusion starts.

It sounds like I need at least one MoCA adapter to set up a MoCA network. Do I also need one before the TiVo Mini as well? I hope not, those adapters aren't cheap. Here is how I think I am supposed to set it up:

Main room:
Tivo Roamio->MoCA Adapter->Wall Coax

Bedroom:
Wall Coax->TiVo Mini
or is it
Wall Coax->Moca Adapter #2->TiVo Mini

The other issue is that the wall coax in the main room is connected to the TiVo input. I guess I need to split that connection as well? And what is all this talk about Fios already being MoCA enabled? I'll go back and keep reading, but this is so confusing.

This quote really confuses me:


> So if you are a Verizon FiOS TV subscriber your home is already MoCA-enabled! You do not need a MoCA Network Adapter to enable it.


----------



## mdavej

jmerr74 said:


> NOW...my question is...what in the HECK do I do? I would seem to me, that the extra line I had installed would be its own little island while the rest of the outlets would work perfect? Or does it even matter if it was split off the main line? Do I just need one Netgear or Actiontech (set meaning two adapters) to get it to work? Please answer in layman's terms...I am getting a headache from all of it, I just want the easiest setup as possible. Or as I said I may just give powerline a whirl, I have A/V 2000's ready to use....or am I overthinking this? Should I just buy the damn things and get on with it?
> 
> My issue is I had never heard of MOCA before and I am trying wrap my head around it, it doesn't make sense like Wi-Fi/LAN networks do.


All you have to do is somehow connect your Roamio to your LAN. Then the rest of your coax network only needs one Moca adapter to create the network. You'll also need to remove your amp, you don't need it anymore and it may not pass the Moca signals.

So what options do you have for connecting your Roamio to your LAN? Can you run an ethernet cable to your router or would you prefer Moca? If Moca, then you'll need a second Moca adapter and you'll need to connect the coax from your Roamio to the rest of your coax network via a splitter outside.


----------



## mdavej

nickels said:


> I am trying to figure this out, but the details are so confusing when it comes to specific components and what is needed.
> 
> I have a Roamio - not plus or pro. It is hard wired my router via Ethernet.
> I have Fios. Just purchased a TiVo Mini, now the confusion starts.
> 
> It sounds like I need at least one MoCA adapter to set up a MoCA network. Do I also need one before the TiVo Mini as well? I hope not, those adapters aren't cheap. Here is how I think I am supposed to set it up:
> 
> Main room:
> Tivo Roamio->MoCA Adapter->Wall Coax
> 
> Bedroom:
> Wall Coax->TiVo Mini
> or is it
> Wall Coax->Moca Adapter #2->TiVo Mini
> 
> The other issue is that the wall coax in the main room is connected to the TiVo input. I guess I need to split that connection as well? And what is all this talk about Fios already being MoCA enabled? I'll go back and keep reading, but this is so confusing.
> 
> This quote really confuses me:


You don't need any Moca adapters at all in your case. Your Fios router is already the one and only Moca adapter that you'd need. All your Minis will connect directly to the coax from the wall.

You don't have to change any wiring. Just plug in the Minis and you're done.


----------



## Random User 7

Fios tv uses MoCa to get the signal to the boxes. For users that are internet only from Fios they may or may not have MoCa.


----------



## nickels

mdavej said:


> You don't need any Moca adapters at all in your case. Your Fios router is already the one and only Moca adapter that you'd need. All your Minis will connect directly to the coax from the wall.
> 
> You don't have to change any wiring. Just plug in the Minis and you're done.


NO ADAPTER NEEDED?!?!?! Best news ever!!!! I will hook up the Mini to the coax and see if it works. I'll be amazed if it does 

*I have Fios triple play, not internet only.


----------



## mdavej

nickels said:


> NO ADAPTER NEEDED?!?!?! Best news ever!!!! I will hook up the Mini to the coax and see if it works. I'll be amazed if it does


Obviously, you also have to pick Moca in the network settings on the Mini.


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> Technically, if you have two or more devices that communicate via ethernet signals, then you have a LAN, and MoCA devices can be part of the LAN.
> 
> If you ditched the FiOS router (or just disabled MoCA on the router) and added a MoCA adapter to create the network, then it should work pretty much the same.
> 
> It seems like a TiVo with MoCA enabled might behave the same way as an external MoCA adapter. If you can figure out how to disable the FiOS MoCA, then you could do some more experiments.


snerd, I missed that you had responded. Sorry. I think you're probably right about a MoCA adapter, if I had one, duplicating what the MoCA on the FiOS router now does. And possibly if I disabled MoCA on the router, my Bolt, if told to create a MoCA network, would do the same thing. I don't know whether I even can disable MoCA on the router. I'll have to check. If I could do that, I would have to run a long Ethernet cable from the Ethernet switch near my Bolt to the router in another room. I have such a cable, so I may try some experiments later ... Thanks for your input.


----------



## mdavej

Epstewart, are you doing all this experimenting because your curious, or do you still have a problem you're trying to solve? It isn't clear to me why you're going through all of this effort.


----------



## Random User 7

epstewart said:


> snerd, I missed that you had responded. Sorry. I think you're probably right about a MoCA adapter, if I had one, duplicating what the MoCA on the FiOS router now does. And possibly if I disabled MoCA on the router, my Bolt, if told to create a MoCA network, would do the same thing. I don't know whether I even can disable MoCA on the router. I'll have to check. If I could do that, I would have to run a long Ethernet cable from the Ethernet switch near my Bolt to the router in another room. I have such a cable, so I may try some experiments later ... Thanks for your input.


You can disable MoCa on a Fios router.


----------



## epstewart

mdavej said:


> Epstewart, are you doing all this experimenting because your curious, or do you still have a problem you're trying to solve? It isn't clear to me why you're going through all of this effort.


Rank curiosity, I'm afraid. I'm not trying to solve a problem. I want to learn about this stuff for its own sake. And to be in a position to give good advice to others in this forum.


----------



## epstewart

Random User 7 said:


> You can disable MoCa on a Fios router.


OK, gracias. I may do some experimenting later...


----------



## mdavej

epstewart said:


> Rank curiosity, I'm afraid. I'm not trying to solve a problem. I want to learn about this stuff for its own sake. And to be in a position to give good advice to others in this forum.


Sounds good. Your efforts are appreciated.


----------



## krkaufman

jmerr74 said:


> ... goes directly into my access box (in my wife's closet, upstairs) *which has an amplifier* that they are all plugged into


Can you report back with the brand and model number of that amplifier?

(Need to check on its MoCA compatibility.)


----------



## krkaufman

jmerr74 said:


> ... an amplifier *that they are all plugged into *which in turn is plugged into a coax A/C adapter


How many coax connections do you count attached to that amplifier, including the coax AC adapter line?

And how does this number mesh with your previous statement of having coax connections (aside from the Living Room, since it's fed separately) in the Family Room plus 3 bedrooms? (4 coax room connections + AC adapter?)
late edit: *NOTE:* A photo of the amp would be great, as well, if possible​
*Bottom line:* The previous post's brand/model question will help us know if this amplifier is MoCA-compatible. If it is not, then the above questions will help figure out what you'll need to buy as a replacement -- because this amp has to go if it's not MoCA-compatible!

*Explanation:* MoCA doesn't pass between the output and input ports on older amps, and you'll need your MoCA to do so because you'll need your MoCA signals to flow up to your main splitter (in the cable box outside) and then back down to the Living Room, where your MoCA adapter (an Ethernet-to-coax bridge) will be installed.

So, there are 3 possibilities:

Your amp is new-ish and compatible
The amp has to go and you buy a MoCA-compatible amp
The amp has to go and you buy a MoCA-compatible splitter
... thus the need to know more about that amp and its current connections.

late edit: p.s. Probably need to be cautious about replacement of this amp, as doing so might affect your current TV setup.


----------



## solstice

krkaufman said:


> So, there are 3 possibilities:
> 
> Your amp is new-ish and compatible
> *The amp has to go and you buy a MoCA-compatible amp*
> The amp has to go and you buy a MoCA-compatible splitter
> ... thus the need to know more about that amp and its current connections.


How does one determine which ones are MoCA compatible?


----------



## krkaufman

mdavej said:


> All you have to do is somehow connect your Roamio to your LAN. Then the rest of your coax network only needs one Moca adapter to create the network. You'll also need to remove your amp, you don't need it anymore and it may not pass the Moca signals.
> 
> So what options do you have for connecting your Roamio to your LAN? Can you run an ethernet cable to your router or would you prefer Moca? If Moca, then you'll need a second Moca adapter and you'll need to connect the coax from your Roamio to the rest of your coax network via a splitter outside.


FYI... Previous "BoM" laid out, here.


----------



## krkaufman

nickels said:


> NO ADAPTER NEEDED?!?!?! Best news ever!!!!* I will hook up the Mini to the coax and see if it works.* I'll be amazed if it does


Exactly! That's a great and simple test.

You'll just need to select "Connect using MoCA" during the Mini's Guided Setup process. Best wishes...!


----------



## krkaufman

solstice said:


> How does one determine which ones are MoCA compatible?


Looking it up in the product documentation. (usually indicates something like "MoCA compatible" or "MoCA pass-through")

p.s. Even for "incompatible" amps, MoCA is sometimes still possible if the MoCA traffic is only passing between the output ports of the amp. (I believe it's recommended to put a MoCA filter on the input to the amp, in such cases.) The issue with jmerr's setup, above, is that their MoCA signal needs to pass between the input and output ports.


----------



## krkaufman

jmerr74 said:


> NOW...my question is...what in the HECK do I do? ...or am I overthinking this?


Before we spend too much time on this DIY path, I wanted to make a suggestion to you that I've made elsewhere...

To remove any headache in going MoCA, since their solution communicates over MoCA, you could always sign-up for a Comcast/Xfinity X1 DVR and have it installed in one of the upstairs bedrooms. That should require the Comcast tech to do all the work to ensure your coax lines are MoCA-ready, including that amp. I'm not sure what the install cost would be, but the set-tops have a 30-day money back guarantee (check!).

Or... just see what it would cost for a Comcast tech to do the work.

p.s. Oh, also... at a minimum, you *are* going to need a Comcast tech to come to your house to put a MoCA filter on the input to your "main" splitter, sitting in that locked cable/junction box outside. They should also verify that the splitter in that box is MoCA-compatible, as well. (rated to 1575MHz or better)

Hopefully, Comcast will do this for free since it protects them as much as it does you. And they wouldn't have to come out if the darn box wasn't locked.


----------



## krkaufman

Reviewing the following diagram for using a pair of diplexers to enable MoCA signals to bypass a single port uni-directional low-pass amp, does anyone have thoughts/experience on doing the same for a multi-output amp using a splitter and multiple diplexers?

e.g. Given an 8 output amp where I want MoCA signals on the input side plus on 4 of the output lines... could the amp be successfully bypassed using a 4-way splitter and 5 diplexers?


----------



## jmerr74

krkaufman said:


> Before we spend too much time on this DIY path, I wanted to make a suggestion to you that I've made elsewhere...
> 
> To remove any headache in going MoCA, since their solution communicates over MoCA, you could always sign-up for a Comcast/Xfinity X1 DVR and have it installed in one of the upstairs bedrooms. That should require the Comcast tech to do all the work to ensure your coax lines are MoCA-ready, including that amp. I'm not sure what the install cost would be, but the set-tops have a 30-day money back guarantee (check!).
> 
> Or... just see what it would cost for a Comcast tech to do the work.
> 
> p.s. Oh, also... at a minimum, you *are* going to need a Comcast tech to come to your house to put a MoCA filter on the input to your "main" splitter, sitting in that locked cable/junction box outside. They should also verify that the splitter in that box is MoCA-compatible, as well. (rated to 1575MHz or better)
> 
> Hopefully, Comcast will do this for free since it protects them as much as it does you. And they wouldn't have to come out if the darn box wasn't locked.


Got it. I will give them a call tomorrow. I know someone who works for Comcast down here that may do it all for a case of beer...


----------



## krkaufman

jmerr74 said:


> Got it. I will give them a call tomorrow. I know someone who works for Comcast down here that may do it all for a case of beer...


Good golly; gotta take advantage of that!

You'll need to contribute the 2 MoCA adapters, I expect (see here), but your Comcast tech may be able to supply you with the necessary MoCA filters and splitters.

The only real mystery is that amp. I'd still be interested in the brand/model info, if you can get it.


----------



## nickels

krkaufman said:


> Exactly! That's a great and simple test.
> 
> You'll just need to select "Connect using MoCA" during the Mini's Guided Setup process. Best wishes...!


I just connected the Mini to the coax line, selected MoCA, and it worked! AWESOME! Plus, you can watch live TV!?!?!?! I swore I read this thing only let you watch shows you recorded. Live TV too - wow what a device! It is like having another TiVo in my room for next to nothing. Love it!


----------



## krkaufman

nickels said:


> I just connected the Mini to the coax line, selected MoCA, and it worked! AWESOME! Plus, you can watch live TV!?!?!?! I swore I read this thing only let you watch shows you recorded. Live TV too - wow what a device! It is like having another TiVo in my room for next to nothing. Love it!


Well that'd be a nice surprise! (The "no live TV" does currently apply to the beta FireTV app.)

Good to hear; thanks for the feedback. (h/t to those who guided you there)


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> An FYI... I just came across my first retail MoCA 2.0 adapters on eBay, the Actiontec ECB6000 -- which then clued me in to the ECB6200, as well.
> 
> *ECB6000:*
> Product Data Sheet
> 
> Commentary
> 
> MoCA 2.0 Certification
> 
> Actiontec Online Store
> ebay
> Beach Audio
> Amazon (3rd parties)
> AntOnline
> Provantage​
> *ECB6200:*
> Product Data Sheet
> 
> MoCA 2.0 Certification ??
> 
> ebay
> Amazon (3rd parties)
> Amazon (3rd parties) -- for 2-pack
> AntOnline
> Provantage​
> -----
> edit: p.s. If anyone is a redditor, feel free to let the OP in the above 'Commentary' know that he was getting the spec'd rates for MoCA 2.0. As often happens, he appears to have been confusing the spec'd "PHY" rates w/ effective/throughput speed.


My TiVo's are on a MoCA 1.1 network created by my Verizon FiOS-provided Actiontec M1424WR Rev. F router. I'm wondering what changes are needed to go to MoCA 2.0. I guess change #1 is a new router, based on the quote above. I don't have any MoCA adapters, so that's not an issue. But would my Bolt, Roamio Plus, and Mini be able to join a MoCA 2.0 network?

And what about my Verizon-provided Wi-Fi network extender, an Actiontec WCB300N? It connects via coax/MoCA to the router.

In short, are MoCA 1.1 devices such as my TiVo units and my Wi-Fi network extender able to work with MoCA 2.0 networks? Thanks in advance ...


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> My TiVo's are on a MoCA 1.1 network created by my Verizon FiOS-provided Actiontec M1424WR Rev. F router. I'm wondering what changes are needed to go to MoCA 2.0. I guess change #1 is a new router, based on the quote above. I don't have any MoCA adapters, so that's not an issue. But would my Bolt, Roamio Plus, and Mini be able to join a MoCA 2.0 network?
> 
> And what about my Verizon-provided Wi-Fi network extender, an Actiontec WCB300N? It connects via coax/MoCA to the router.
> 
> In short, are MoCA 1.1 devices such as my TiVo units and my Wi-Fi network extender able to work with MoCA 2.0 networks? Thanks in advance ...


The only MoCA 2.0 device in your current setup is the BOLT. All the other devices (including that Actiontec WCB3000N*) would "work" on a MoCA 2.0-infused network, but they would only communicate at MoCA 1.1 rates. (Installing a MoCA 2.0 bridge wouldn't magically upgrade them to MoCA 2.0.)

You would want a MoCA 2.0 device to be your bridge between MoCA and Ethernet, and that could be the BOLT (depending on its available connections), a new FiOS gateway (Quantum G1100, p'raps), or a MoCA 2.0 adapter. As highlighted above, with the BOLT being your only MoCA 2.0 device, it wouldn't make much sense for the BOLT to be the bridge, since it would only be communicating with MoCA 1.1 devices.

If you're looking to maximize your coax bandwidth between two points, you'd need a couple of the above bonded MoCA 2.0 adapters, as it appears the BOLT is only capable of standard MoCA 2.0 speeds, 400+Mbps. (Still trying to get confirmation from TiVo on this.)

Re: that Actiontec WCB3000N... Actiontec has a similar wireless network extender that has MoCA 2.0, but I didn't list it in the MoCA 2.0 adapter post because I haven't seen it available via retail, anywhere.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> The only MoCA 2.0 device in your current setup is the BOLT. All the other devices (including that Actiontec WCB3000N*) would "work" on a MoCA 2.0-infused network, but they would only communicate at MoCA 1.1 rates. (Installing a MoCA 2.0 bridge wouldn't magically upgrade them to MoCA 2.0.)
> 
> You would want a MoCA 2.0 device to be your bridge between MoCA and Ethernet, and that could be the BOLT (depending on its available connections), a new FiOS gateway (Quantum G1100, p'raps), or a MoCA 2.0 adapter. As highlighted above, with the BOLT being your only MoCA 2.0 device, it wouldn't make much sense for the BOLT to be the bridge, since it would only be communicating with MoCA 1.1 devices.
> 
> If you're looking to maximize your coax bandwidth between two points, you'd need a couple of the above bonded MoCA 2.0 adapters, as it appears the BOLT is only capable of standard MoCA 2.0 speeds, 400+Mbps. (Still trying to get confirmation from TiVo on this.)
> 
> Re: that Actiontec WCB3000N... Actiontec has a similar wireless network extender that has MoCA 2.0, but I didn't list it in the MoCA 2.0 adapter post because I haven't seen it available via retail, anywhere.


OK, thanks. It looks like Verizon offers the Quantum G1100, so that is one puzzle piece. I don't know, either, about a MoCA 2.0 network extender from Actiontec (whether or not Verizon offers it) but I might not need to keep using an extender anyway.

I apparently can use a bonded MoCA network adapter to circumvent MoCA 1.1 on, say, my TiVo Roamio Plus, I gather, if TiVo Inc. can't confirm that this DVR can handle MoCA 2.0. I don't exactly know what "bonded" means in this context, though ...

Anyway, if I could get MoCA 2.0 going between the Bolt and a Quantum G1100 gateway, the devices I have Ethernet-connected off the Bolt that use Gigabit Ethernet  my LG TV, my Sony PlayStation  would benefit, I assume.


----------



## aaronwt

epstewart said:


> My TiVo's are on a MoCA 1.1 network created by my Verizon FiOS-provided Actiontec M1424WR Rev. F router. I'm wondering what changes are needed to go to MoCA 2.0. I guess change #1 is a new router, based on the quote above. I don't have any MoCA adapters, so that's not an issue. But would my Bolt, Roamio Plus, and Mini be able to join a MoCA 2.0 network?
> 
> And what about my Verizon-provided Wi-Fi network extender, an Actiontec WCB300N? It connects via coax/MoCA to the router.
> 
> In short, are MoCA 1.1 devices such as my TiVo units and my Wi-Fi network extender able to work with MoCA 2.0 networks? Thanks in advance ...


The last router that Verizon sent me was a MoCA 2.0 one. This was the first one I got with MoCA 2.0. The other five FiOS routers they sent me over the last eight years were MoCA 1.x.


----------



## mdavej

epstewart said:


> Anyway, if I could get MoCA 2.0 going between the Bolt and a Quantum G1100 gateway, the devices I have Ethernet-connected off the Bolt that use Gigabit Ethernet  my LG TV, my Sony PlayStation  would benefit, I assume.


I don't think you'll see any actual benefit on those devices. Your TV probably never uses over 6Mbps of bandwidth, and your PS is limited by your internet speed, which I'm guessing is under 100Mbps anyway.

The only benefit I could see is getting 470Mbps file transfers between Bolt and whatever PC you have on Moca, if any. Nothing in the streaming domain uses anywhere near that.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> I don't know, either, about a MoCA 2.0 network extender from Actiontec (whether or not Verizon offers it) but I might not need to keep using an extender anyway.


Depending on your preferences, a MoCA 2.0 adapter combined with a non-MoCA wireless access point is also an option, as a replacement for the Actiontec extender, if a wireless extender is still needed.



> I apparently can use a bonded MoCA network adapter to circumvent MoCA 1.1 on, say, my TiVo Roamio Plus, I gather, if TiVo Inc. can't confirm that this DVR can handle MoCA 2.0.


There's no question in regards to any TiVo device aside from the BOLT. The only TiVo device currently supporting MoCA 2.0 is the BOLT; all others are MoCA 1.1. The only question is whether the *BOLT* supports only standard MoCA 2.0 or also supports "bonded" or "extended" MoCA 2.0.

But, yes, assuming you've upgraded your gateway to MoCA 2.0 and the Plus' only wired network route back to your router is over coax, you *could* use a MoCA 2.0 adapter to increase the effective throughput for your Roamio Plus over what the Plus' built-in MoCA can offer -- though the MoCA adapter would need to be connected to the Plus' Gigabit Ethernet port.



> I don't exactly know what "bonded" means in this context, though ...


An extended/bonded MoCA 2.0 device can use 2 MoCA channels (bonded) to double the effective bandwidth from standard MoCA 2.0's 400+Mbps to 800+Mbps. Similarly, you'd want to research your gateway to determine whether it is capable of extended/bonded MoCA 2.0, or is just standard 2.0, to help with any MoCA 2.0 adapter selection.



> Anyway, if I could get MoCA 2.0 going between the Bolt and a Quantum G1100 gateway, the devices I have Ethernet-connected off the Bolt that use Gigabit Ethernet - my LG TV, my Sony PlayStation - would benefit, I assume.


Yes; however, networking the *Plus* in this manner would require connecting the Plus' MoCA 2.0 adapter to the Plus' Gigabit Ethernet port, precluding use of the Plus' port for bridging other co-located Ethernet devices to the home network; a separate Gigabit switch would need to be purchased, and attached to the MoCA adapter, to network multiple devices via the MoCA 2.0 adapter, in this case.


----------



## krkaufman

mdavej said:


> I don't think you'll see any actual benefit on those devices. Your TV probably never uses over 6Mbps of bandwidth, and your PS is limited by your internet speed, which I'm guessing is under 100Mbps anyway.
> 
> The only benefit I could see is getting 470Mbps file transfers between Bolt and whatever PC you have on Moca, if any. Nothing in the streaming domain uses anywhere near that.


mdavej's point is well-made. I was responding purely from a technical standpoint, rather than practical.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> I apparently can use a bonded MoCA network adapter to circumvent MoCA 1.1 on, say, my TiVo Roamio Plus, I gather, if TiVo Inc. can't confirm that this DVR can handle MoCA 2.0. I don't exactly know what "bonded" means in this context, though ...
> 
> Anyway, if I could get MoCA 2.0 going between the Bolt and a Quantum G1100 gateway, the devices I have Ethernet-connected off the Bolt that use Gigabit Ethernet  my LG TV, my Sony PlayStation  would benefit, I assume.


The Bolt is the first TiVo to have MoCA 2.0, Roamio Plus/Pro and Premiere XL4 are MoCA 1.1.

Yes, the devices hanging off the Bolt should see some benefit from MoCA 2.0.

MoCA 1.1 networks use a single 50MHz channel. MoCA 2.0 non-bonded uses a single 100MHz channel to get higher bit rates. MoCA 2.0 bonded uses two neighboring 100MHz channels to double the bit rates.

This is similar to the way that DOCSIS modems bond several 6MHz bands for higher bit rates, except that MoCA jumps through some really amazing hoops in order to squeeze the absolute maximum speed from the channel.


----------



## epstewart

mdavej said:


> I don't think you'll see any actual benefit on those devices. Your TV probably never uses over 6Mbps of bandwidth, and your PS is limited by your internet speed, which I'm guessing is under 100Mbps anyway.
> 
> The only benefit I could see is getting 470Mbps file transfers between Bolt and whatever PC you have on Moca, if any. Nothing in the streaming domain uses anywhere near that.


OK, I now have 50/50 Mbps from Verizon FiOS. The step up to 300/300 would cost $130/mo, though the Quantum Gateway router would be thrown in gratis. That's a bit steep for me.

I don't presently have a computer on MoCA. My main computer is an iMac. It has Gigabit Ethernet. Could I put it on MoCA 2.0 with a 2.0 network adapter?


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> mdavej's point is well-made. I was responding purely from a technical standpoint, rather than practical.


I appreciate answers to my questions from a technical standpoint. I also appreciate answers from a practical standpoint!


----------



## epstewart

aaronwt said:


> The last router that Verizon sent me was a MoCA 2.0 one. This was the first one I got with MoCA 2.0. The other five FiOS routers they sent me over the last eight years were MoCA 1.x.


Is the most recent one a Quantum Gateway router, which I believe normally costs extra, or is it what you might call their "basic" router that comes at no extra cost?


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Depending on your preferences, a MoCA 2.0 adapter combined with a non-MoCA wireless access point is also an option, as a replacement for the Actiontec extender, if a wireless extender is still needed.


OK, that's a help. I didn't know there were non-MoCA wireless access points.



krkaufman said:


> There's no question in regards to any TiVo device aside from the BOLT. The only TiVo device currently supporting MoCA 2.0 is the BOLT; all others are MoCA 1.1. The only question is whether the *BOLT* supports only standard MoCA 2.0 or also supports "bonded" or "extended" MoCA 2.0.


OK, I get it now!



krkaufman said:


> ... assuming you've upgraded your gateway to MoCA 2.0 and the Plus' only wired network route back to your router is over coax, you *could* use a MoCA 2.0 adapter to increase the effective throughput for your Roamio Plus over what the Plus' built-in MoCA can offer -- though the MoCA adapter would need to be connected to the Plus' Gigabit Ethernet port.
> 
> An extended/bonded MoCA 2.0 device can use 2 MoCA channels (bonded) to double the effective bandwidth from standard MoCA 2.0's 400+Mbps to 800+Mbps. Similarly, you'd want to research your gateway to determine whether it is capable of extended/bonded MoCA 2.0, or is just standard 2.0, to help with any MoCA 2.0 adapter selection.
> 
> ... networking the *Plus* in this manner would require connecting the Plus' MoCA 2.0 adapter to the Plus' Gigabit Ethernet port, precluding use of the Plus' port for bridging other co-located Ethernet devices to the home network; a separate Gigabit switch would need to be purchased, and attached to the MoCA adapter, to network multiple devices via the MoCA 2.0 adapter, in this case.


I now get what you mean by "bonded." I knew about the designation "extended," but I didn't know "bonded" was a more descriptive synonym.

I could definitely see myself getting a MoCA 2.0 network adapter for my Roamio Plus, along with a Gigabit Ethernet switch so I could make the Roamio's Ethernet port available to the adapter and also to other co-located devices. That's an excellent idea!

I assume I would get the G1100 Quantum Gateway that Verizon offers, so I would want a MoCA network adapter that fits with it in terms of whether it handles bonded MoCA 2.0.

Thank you for your input about all these technical details!


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> The Bolt is the first TiVo to have MoCA 2.0, Roamio Plus/Pro and Premiere XL4 are MoCA 1.1.
> 
> Yes, the devices hanging off the Bolt should see some benefit from MoCA 2.0.
> 
> MoCA 1.1 networks use a single 50MHz channel. MoCA 2.0 non-bonded uses a single 100MHz channel to get higher bit rates. MoCA 2.0 bonded uses two neighboring 100MHz channels to double the bit rates.
> 
> This is similar to the way that DOCSIS modems bond several 6MHz bands for higher bit rates, except that MoCA jumps through some really amazing hoops in order to squeeze the absolute maximum speed from the channel.


Thanks. That's good information. It looks like those devices hanging off the Bolt would benefit, but I would probably need to step up my Verizon FiOS Internet to 300/300 Mbps from 50/50. That would run an extra $130/mo, but with a Quantum Gateway router thrown in. I'll have to think it over ...


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> I don't presently have a computer on MoCA. My main computer is an iMac. It has Gigabit Ethernet. Could I put it on MoCA 2.0 with a 2.0 network adapter?


I don't see why not, with all the previous information taken into consideration. (i.e. standard or bonded MoCA 2.0 bridge, ...)

The iMac, like a 4-tuner Roamio, will just think it's connected via Ethernet. How is the iMac currently connected?

p.s. Utilities such a LAN Speed Test, iPerf, jPerf can be used to measure your LAN speeds (rather than using Internet speed tests), which aids in identifying issues and evaluating whether you're hitting your expected speeds.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> *I assume I would get the G1100 Quantum Gateway that Verizon offers*, so I would want a MoCA network adapter that fits with it in terms of whether it handles bonded MoCA 2.0.


That's "Option 1."

"Option 2" --- necessary only if you're looking to go "bonded," and the Quantum Gateway doesn't support "bonded" MoCA 2.0 or if there are documented issues with its performance --- would be to just get a standalone "bonded" MoCA 2.0 adapter to act as your bridge and connect it to the Gigabit LAN ports on your gateway.


----------



## aaronwt

epstewart said:


> Is the most recent one a Quantum Gateway router, which I believe normally costs extra, or is it what you might call their "basic" router that comes at no extra cost?


I only know that they sent it to me for free(even though I told them not to) when I upgraded to the 150/150 tier. The router is still sitting in the box. I don't plan on using it unless they require me to connect it for trouble shooting.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> That's "Option 1."
> 
> "Option 2" --- necessary only if you're looking to go "bonded," and the Quantum Gateway doesn't support "bonded" MoCA 2.0 or if there are documented issues with its performance --- would be to just get a standalone "bonded" MoCA 2.0 adapter to act as your bridge and connect it to the Gigabit LAN ports on your gateway.


The FiOS Quantum Gateway G1100 user guide says: "The Coax (MoCA 2.0) connection supports 700 Mbps." That means it's bonded, right?


----------



## epstewart

aaronwt said:


> I only know that they sent it to me for free(even though I told them not to) when I upgraded to the 150/150 tier. The router is still sitting in the box. I don't plan on using it unless they require me to connect it for trouble shooting.


Verizon is offering a free Quantum Gateway to anyone who signs up for the 50/50 tier or higher. Looking at the options they seem to be offering (to me at least) they don't seem to show the 150/150 tier now! They jump from 75/75 right to 300/300. I now have 50/50 (but with an older router, not the Quantum Gateway) and going to 300/300 would add $125 to my monthly bill. Funny, though, when I looked at it yesterday, the premium was $130 ...


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> ... The iMac, like a 4-tuner Roamio, will just think it's connected via Ethernet. How is the iMac currently connected?


The iMac is currently Ethernet-connected to my router, whose top speed is 100 Mbps. But this iMac model is listed as supporting Gigabit Ethernet.



krkaufman said:


> ... p.s. Utilities such a LAN Speed Test, iPerf, jPerf can be used to measure your LAN speeds (rather than using Internet speed tests), which aids in identifying issues and evaluating whether you're hitting your expected speeds.


I will look into those utilities later on today. I wonder, however, if they are Windows utilities, not Mac. I'll find out when I get a spare moment to look into them ...


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> I will look into those utilities later on today. I wonder, however, if they are Windows utilities, not Mac. I'll find out when I get a spare moment to look into them ...


That's why I mentioned jPerf, a Java version of iPerf. I've used jPerf successfully on a Mac OS X laptop.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> The iMac is currently Ethernet-connected to my router, whose top speed is 100 Mbps. But this iMac model is listed as supporting Gigabit Ethernet.
> 
> I will look into those utilities later on today. I wonder, however, if they are Windows utilities, not Mac. I'll find out when I get a spare moment to look into them ...


iPerf is platform independent, it will run on Mac/Windows/Linux boxes. What would really be cool is if TiVo included iPerf on their platform so that speeds between two TiVos could be tested.

jPerf is a GUI for iPerf. It appears to have only Mac/Windows versions available.


----------



## aaronwt

epstewart said:


> Verizon is offering a free Quantum Gateway to anyone who signs up for the 50/50 tier or higher. Looking at the options they seem to be offering (to me at least) they don't seem to show the 150/150 tier now! They jump from 75/75 right to 300/300. I now have 50/50 (but with an older router, not the Quantum Gateway) and going to 300/300 would add $125 to my monthly bill. Funny, though, when I looked at it yesterday, the premium was $130 ...


I had to talk to a csr on the phone to get my deal. Online showed a higher price.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> The FiOS Quantum Gateway G1100 user guide says: "The Coax (MoCA 2.0) connection supports 700 Mbps." That means it's bonded, right?


Probably not. MoCA 2.0 unbonded has a PHY rate of 700Mbps and a data rate of 400Mbps. MoCA 2.0 bonded has a PHY rate of 1.4Gpbs and a data rate of 800Mbps.


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> Probably not. MoCA 2.0 unbonded has a PHY rate of 700Mbps and a data rate of 400Mbps. MoCA 2.0 bonded has a PHY rate of 1.4Gpbs and a data rate of 800Mbps.


WHAT snerd SAID!! (see MoCA 2.0 specs, here, for "official" confirmation*)

You do want to check the specs, in detail, rather than relying on the marketing. (e.g. see hard drives) What matters in estimating effective data throughput is the "data rate" or "MAC rate", not the PHY rate. This is similar to all those MoCA 1.1 adapters touting 170Mbps rates -- even though they were using Fast Ethernet ports, which would limit effective data throughput to 100Mbps maximum.

* p.s. I see that I was incorrectly referring to the "bonded" mode as "extended"; the MoCA 2.0 specs refer to it as "enhanced."


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> Probably not. MoCA 2.0 unbonded has a PHY rate of 700Mbps and a data rate of 400Mbps. MoCA 2.0 bonded has a PHY rate of 1.4Gpbs and a data rate of 800Mbps.


OK, that's useful info. Thanks.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> WHAT snerd SAID!! (see MoCA 2.0 specs, here, for "official" confirmation*)
> 
> You do want to check the specs, in detail, rather than relying on the marketing. (e.g. see hard drives) What matters in estimating effective data throughput is the "data rate" or "MAC rate", not the PHY rate. This is similar to all those MoCA 1.1 adapters touting 170Mbps rates -- even though they were using Fast Ethernet ports, which would limit effective data throughput to 100Mbps maximum.
> 
> * p.s. I see that I was incorrectly referring to the "bonded" mode as "extended"; the MoCA 2.0 specs refer to it as "enhanced."


OK, I now see that the 700 Mbps PHY rate of the Verizon FiOS Gateway G1100 router implies it is not bonded/enhanced. It's time to look at option 2, "just get a standalone "bonded" MoCA 2.0 adapter to act as your bridge and connect it to the Gigabit LAN ports on your gateway."


----------



## krkaufman

Looking for some advice...

Let's say I have a splitter with nothing currently connected to its input (no MoCA filter, no 75ohm terminator cap, nothing)... but a MoCA network is present on the coax lines connected to the splitter outputs.

What do I need to do with the input to that splitter?

(terminator? MoCA filter? both? other?)


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Looking for some advice...
> 
> Let's say I have a splitter with nothing currently connected to its input (no MoCA filter, no 75ohm terminator cap, nothing)... but a MoCA network is present on the coax lines connected to the splitter outputs.
> 
> What do I need to do with the input to that splitter?
> 
> (terminator? MoCA filter? both? other?)


I'm not sure what the advantage of a nil-input splitter is to you. The two outputs would wind up with reduced signal strength, no? Would you not be better off to join the two outputs with a coax barrel connector?

A terminator would probably be better than an empty input port on the splitter, I'd think ...

I don't know enough about MoCA filters to know how one might help you in this situation ... I suppose your worry is that there might be signal attenuation because of the nil-input, particularly in the crucial upper frequency range.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> The two outputs would wind up with reduced signal strength, no? Would you not be better off to join the two outputs with a coax barrel connector?


This assumes 2 outputs; could be a 3-way or more.


----------



## snerd

krkaufman said:


> Looking for some advice...
> 
> Let's say I have a splitter with nothing currently connected to its input (no MoCA filter, no 75ohm terminator cap, nothing)... but a MoCA network is present on the coax lines connected to the splitter outputs.
> 
> What do I need to do with the input to that splitter?
> 
> (terminator? MoCA filter? both? other?)


It depends....

Q1) Are there non-MoCA signals on the network? If so, how did they get there?

Q2) What is the objective, what result do you want to achieve?

Q3) Is there an underlying question here that you're trying to answer? Perhaps wanting to have a better understanding of how splitters function in more general or non-ideal situations?

Q4) Is this splitter indoors or outdoors?

If there are only MoCA signals on the network, and your goal is to have the best possible MoCA signals on the network, then I would suggest leaving the input unconnected. An open input will reflect the MoCA signals better than if you attached a PoE filter. The reason for this is that any time RF passes through any physical thing, some of the RF power will be absorbed, resulting is some amount of loss. So, having nothing attached to the input will result in lower loss than if you attach a PoE filter.

The downside of leaving the input unconnected is that it will also reflect non-MoCA signals. If there are non-MoCA signals on the network, then having a splitter with an unused input probably implies that your network isn't structured like a tree, which might create other issues. Ignoring that for the moment, with non-MoCA signals present, I would suggest attaching a PoE filter to the input and attaching a 75-ohm termination to the PoE filter.

In the off chance that your goal is to test the behavior of a network that has no PoE filter, then I would suggest attaching a 75-ohm termination directly to the input of the splitter. This will result in much weaker MoCA signals, so the data rate may be reduced.

If you need to determine how much attenuation the MoCA signals experience, then that will depend on what is(n't) attached to the splitter input.

There are probably some cases that I haven't covered, but "it depends" is my primary answer 

I'm also ignoring the "obvious" answers of "use a PoE filter, then attach to your cable feed or OTA antenna" since in those cases I don't think you would have posed the question.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> This assumes 2 outputs; could be a 3-way or more.


Echoing snerd above, I wonder what is the topology of your coax network? Is it a tree topology?

Is there no feed from outside your home that ought to, directly or indirectly, become the input into your X-way splitter?

Anyway, a practical question: is there no empirical way to determine your network performance (assuming that is what you were concerned with) in the three cases:


Open input on the splitter
POE filter on the input
Terminator on the input
Can you use the Network Diagnostics on your TiVo units to measure transfer speeds or number of packets in error or something of that sort? What about the utilities you recommended to me, such as jPerf?


----------



## krkaufman

Thanks for the replies, guys.



epstewart said:


> I wonder what is the topology of your coax network? Is it a tree topology?


It is merely a MoCA coax segment, whose only purpose is to deliver networking to a few locations in the house that have coax but no Ethernet.

The "tree" is as described, a splitter with coax lines run to each room -- with a MoCA adapter connected to one leg of the splitter (as well as to Ethernet, of course). These coax lines don't need to connect to the rest of the house's coax plant, since we have no need for TV signals at these locations (that's what the Minis are for) nor MoCA anywhere else in the house (having Ethernet everywhere else). The intent is to keep our MoCA network as small as possible, to avoid needlessly weakening its signal and diminishing performance, and to keep MoCA troubleshooting infrequent and simpler.



epstewart said:


> A terminator would probably be better than an empty input port on the splitter, I'd think ... I suppose your worry is that there might be signal attenuation because of the nil-input, particularly in the crucial upper frequency range.


A bit of all of the above, and then some more. What's the best reflector? Might there be concerns with RF signals interfering with the MoCA signals owing to an un-terminated input?



epstewart said:


> I'm not sure what the advantage of a nil-input splitter is to you. The two outputs would wind up with reduced signal strength, no? Would you not be better off to join the two outputs with a coax barrel connector?


Using a barrel connector, if I had just 2 lines, *would* be the best solution (in my mind), providing the connector wasn't junk. Much like connecting two MoCA devices via a direct coax run.

I hadn't mentioned it because I was trying to be as vague as possible (trying to allow for a clean canvas), but another option to be considered is attaching one of the runs to the input of the splitter, perhaps the run with the MoCA adapter. (I also hadn't mentioned this connection option as it would seemingly violate the top-down hierarchy, and would require rewiring if I ever *did* want to include OTA/cable signals in the mix.) I may give this a test, as well, just to see what happens to the numbers.



> Anyway, a practical question: is there no empirical way to determine your network performance (assuming that is what you were concerned with) in the three cases:
> Open input on the splitter
> POE filter on the input
> Terminator on the input
> (...)


That was the plan, but I was looking for the theory/hypothetical, first, against which the results could be evaluated. (Well, and to avoid pointlessly testing a configuration in detail that is known to be deficient.)



> Can you use the Network Diagnostics on your TiVo units to measure transfer speeds or number of packets in error or something of that sort? What about the utilities you recommended to me, such as jPerf?


All of the above, yes, including starting with the "Network Status" screen on the MoCA-connected Minis. The PHY rates are the first indicator of an improved/degraded signal.

Sadly, as I've bemoaned a few times in the past, since the TiVo devices lack a useful network test utility, I'll have to fire-up a second MoCA adapter -- a still shrink-wrapped ECB3500T (busting the shrink-wrap is the ;( part) -- to use any of the speed test utilities.


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> Is there an underlying question here that you're trying to answer?


It's considerably less underlying than I'd realized when I originally posted the question.

I'd posted the question pondering options for the OP in another thread (have at it, here), but have since remembered that I'd set up a couple additional MoCA-connected Minis at my sister's place in this fashion, using a 4-way splitter to create an isolated MoCA networking segment, sans TV signals.


----------



## JayMan747

I am new to Tivo and have Tivo Bolt with coax (MOCA) connection and 2 Mini's with Moca.
Can I set up a 3rd Mini using ethernet connection?


----------



## HarperVision

JayMan747 said:


> I am new to Tivo and have Tivo Bolt with coax (MOCA) connection and 2 Mini's with Moca. Can I set up a 3rd Mini using ethernet connection?


Yes you can. As long as they're all connected to the same routing device somewhere in the chain.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> ... Might there be concerns with RF signals interfering with the MoCA signals owing to an un-terminated input?


If RF does interfere with the unterminated input, I would think the interference might be sporadic and therefore not necessarily show up when you are making your tests.


----------



## krkaufman

harpervision said:


> yes you can. As long as they're all connected to the same routing device somewhere in the chain.


+1


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> If RF does interfere with the unterminated input, I would think the interference might be sporadic and therefore not necessarily show up when you are making your tests.


True. Also, I can't think of any devices that might broadcast in that range (having not bothered to research it), but wouldn't expect it to pose problems for MoCA like it would OTA antenna signals, given the relative signal strengths on the line.


----------



## epstewart

HarperVision said:


> Yes you can. As long as they're all connected to the same routing device somewhere in the chain.


Dave, I'm not sure if when you say "the same routing device" you mean JayMan747's router, as in the device that routes IP packets thru the local network, or do you mean something like whichever MoCA device is taking charge of the so-called MoCA controller functionality?

Anyway, JayMan747's Ethernet network with the third Mini on it has to be bridged to his MoCA network somewhere, that's all. It doesn't really matter where the bridging takes place.

Let's say he wants his Bolt to act as the bridge to the Ethernet LAN that the Mini is on. He could simply run Ethernet from the back of the Bolt right to the third Mini. He could also get an Ethernet switch and hook it to the Bolt, then run Ethernet from the switch to the Mini, plus more Ethernet cables from the switch to any other non-MoCA devices he wants to bridge to MoCA.

Or he could install a MoCA network adapter anywhere he desires on his MoCA/coax network and run Ethernet from it (directly or via an Ethernet switch) to his third Mini or the Ethernet network that Mini is on.


----------



## snerd

krkaufman said:


> The "tree" is as described, a splitter with coax lines run to each room -- with a MoCA adapter connected to one leg of the splitter (as well as to Ethernet, of course). These coax lines don't need to connect to the rest of the house's coax plant, since we have no need for TV signals at these locations (that's what the Minis are for) nor MoCA anywhere else in the house (having Ethernet everywhere else). The intent is to keep our MoCA network as small as possible, to avoid needlessly weakening its signal and diminishing performance, and to keep MoCA troubleshooting infrequent and simpler.


So I take it this isolated MoCA network has only Minis on it, and the TiVo that receives OTA or catv signals is connected to the "other" coax?



> A bit of all of the above, and then some more. What's the best reflector? Might there be concerns with RF signals interfering with the MoCA signals owing to an un-terminated input?


Best reflector should be leaving the splitter input unconnected. No RF concerns at all. Terminations are meant to eliminate reflections, but this is a special case where you *want* as much reflection as you can get. Caveat: I've never tried this, so there is a small chance that I'm mistaken here. RF theory says it will work. If experiments contradict my claims, then believe the experiments.



> Using a barrel connector, if I had just 2 lines, *would* be the best solution (in my mind), providing the connector wasn't junk. Much like connecting two MoCA devices via a direct coax run.


Completely agree. I've tried to think of a way to connect 3+ devices on an isolated MoCA network just like what you are doing, and the splitter with open input was the only solution that came to mind.



> I hadn't mentioned it because I was trying to be as vague as possible (trying to allow for a clean canvas), but another option to be considered is attaching one of the runs to the input of the splitter, perhaps the run with the MoCA adapter. (I also hadn't mentioned this connection option as it would seemingly violate the top-down hierarchy, and would require rewiring if I ever *did* want to include OTA/cable signals in the mix.) I may give this a test, as well, just to see what happens to the numbers.


Can't hurt to try it. If there is just one MoCA adapter and several Minis, then the only data flow would be between the MoCA adapter and the Minis. The Minis never need to talk to each other. That should actually give better signal strength than bouncing signals off the splitter. In fact, if you have a 4-way splitter so that one MoCA adapter talks to 3 Minis, then the signal gets reduced to (1/4)^2 or 1/16 because the signals have to pass through the splitter twice (actually it is a little worse than that due to loss in the splitter). Using a 3-way instead and the signals only get reduced to only about 1/3, since the signals only pass through the splitter once. Sure seems like it is worth an experiment....

Note that this is a very special case for a MoCA network, since there is only one "transmitter" (the MoCA adapter) and a bunch of "receivers" (the Minis). For viewers at home, this should only be attempted by trained professionals on a closed track.


----------



## HarperVision

Sounds similar to isolating a directv deca network to work with the tivos.


----------



## snerd

HarperVision said:


> Sounds similar to isolating a directv deca network to work with the tivos.


Precisely. In this case, if enough Minis are involved, the MoCA solution could be less costly than DECA since only one MoCA adapter is needed to drive the Mini network, while a DECA solution would need a DECA adapter for each Mini.


----------



## JayMan747

epstewart said:


> Dave, I'm not sure if when you say "the same routing device" you mean JayMan747's router, as in the device that routes IP packets thru the local network, or do you mean something like whichever MoCA device is taking charge of the so-called MoCA controller functionality?
> 
> Anyway, JayMan747's Ethernet network with the third Mini on it has to be bridged to his MoCA network somewhere, that's all. It doesn't really matter where the bridging takes place.
> 
> Let's say he wants his Bolt to act as the bridge to the Ethernet LAN that the Mini is on. He could simply run Ethernet from the back of the Bolt right to the third Mini. He could also get an Ethernet switch and hook it to the Bolt, then run Ethernet from the switch to the Mini, plus more Ethernet cables from the switch to any other non-MoCA devices he wants to bridge to MoCA.
> 
> Or he could install a MoCA network adapter anywhere he desires on his MoCA/coax network and run Ethernet from it (directly or via an Ethernet switch) to his third Mini or the Ethernet network that Mini is on.


I should have added that I have a FiOS router, so it is acting as the MOCA bridge. The Bolt and 2 Minis are connected via COAX. and was asking if a 3rd mini could connect via ethernet. -I move this TV from garage to patio, and cat5 (RJ-45) connection would be easier than a coax (F-type) connection.


----------



## mdavej

JayMan747 said:


> ...was asking if a 3rd mini could connect via ethernet


Yes. You can mix any way you like so long as all are ultimately connected to the same LAN.


----------



## krkaufman

JayMan747 said:


> I should have added that I have a FiOS router, so it is acting as the MOCA bridge. The Bolt and 2 Minis are connected via COAX. and was asking if a 3rd mini could connect via ethernet. -I move this TV from garage to patio, and cat5 (RJ-45) connection would be easier than a coax (F-type) connection.


Still just fine. Some can be connected via Ethernet, others MoCA. I have a Roamio Pro and a base Roamio on Ethernet, along with 6 Minis, but I have 2 other Minis connected via MoCA, in locations where Ethernet isn't available.


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> So I take it this isolated MoCA network has only Minis on it, and the TiVo that receives OTA or catv signals is connected to the "other" coax?


Correct, yes. Our Roamio Pro is on a coax connection that carries Comcast cable; and our base Roamio is on a coax tree fed from an antenna in the attic. These DVRs and 6 Minis are all networked via Ethernet. Then I have 2 more 2 Minis hung off a separate, isolated coax splitter, with a MoCA adapter providing their network connectivity.



snerd said:


> HarperVision said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds similar to isolating a directv deca network to work with the tivos.
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely. In this case, if enough Minis are involved, the MoCA solution could be less costly than DECA since only one MoCA adapter is needed to drive the Mini network, while a DECA solution would need a DECA adapter for each Mini.
Click to expand...

Yep. But with the obvious exception that using MoCA will allow me to add OTA antenna or cable signals, later, if the need arises. I'd also like to eventually allow MoCA onto all our coax lines.



> Best reflector should be leaving the splitter input unconnected. No RF concerns at all. Terminations are meant to eliminate reflections, but this is a special case where you *want* as much reflection as you can get. Caveat: I've never tried this, so there is a small chance that I'm mistaken here. RF theory says it will work. *If experiments contradict my claims, then believe the experiments.*




The theory makes sense. The PoE MoCA filter is typically needed for reflection because we're typically talking about a coax line being connected to the input, in which case there'd be effectively no reflection. (Really, calling it a "filter" seems misleading.)

Re: MoCA adapter on splitter input:


> Can't hurt to try it. If there is just one MoCA adapter and several Minis, then the only data flow would be between the MoCA adapter and the Minis. The Minis never need to talk to each other. That should actually give better signal strength than bouncing signals off the splitter. In fact, if you have a 4-way splitter so that one MoCA adapter talks to 3 Minis, then the signal gets reduced to (1/4)^2 or 1/16 because the signals have to pass through the splitter twice (actually it is a little worse than that due to loss in the splitter). Using a 3-way instead and the signals only get reduced to only about 1/3, since the signals only pass through the splitter once. Sure seems like it is worth an experiment...


Excellent point; nothing to lose. I'll try the various combinations and report back. In fact, I currently have just 3 devices hung off the 4-way: the adapter and 2 Minis, so I could potentially get away w/ a 2-way splitter if the "adapter on input" configuration produces the best results.



> Note that this is a very special case for a MoCA network, since there is only one "transmitter" (the MoCA adapter) and a bunch of "receivers" (the Minis). For viewers at home, this should only be attempted *by trained professionals* on a closed track.


I'll give it a go, anyway... (It *is* a closed track, at least.)


----------



## snerd

krkaufman said:


> The theory makes sense. The PoE MoCA filter is typically needed for reflection because we're typically talking about a coax line being connected to the input, in which case there'd be effectively no reflection. (Really, calling it a "filter" seems misleading.)


The term "filter" is electrical engineering speak for any circuit that allows some frequencies to pass while blocking other frequencies. MoCA PoE filters typically pass 5-1002MHz while blocking frequencies above 1125MHz. These are built with capacitors and inductors that are ideally lossless components, so any filter that blocks frequencies without absorbing them will act as a reflector, since the energy has to go somewhere. In that sense, the reflective quality might be viewed either as a side effect or as the intended function, depending on one's perspective.



> I'll try the various combinations and report back. In fact, I currently have just 3 devices hung off the 4-way: the adapter and 2 Minis, so I could potentially get away w/ a 2-way splitter if the "adapter on input" configuration produces the best results.


Right, a 2-way splitter should give the best signal levels.


----------



## krkaufman

Re: MoCA adapter on splitter input...


snerd said:


> Can't hurt to try it. If there is just one MoCA adapter and several Minis, then the only data flow would be between the MoCA adapter and the Minis. The Minis never need to talk to each other. That should actually give better signal strength than bouncing signals off the splitter.


As expected, the best results were obtained by putting the MoCA adapter on the splitter's input leg, with improvement in dropping from a 4-way to 2-way splitter, and the worst results were from placing a 75ohm terminator on the input. The difference between the terminated MoCA filter on the input versus an open input was too close to really make a call. More tests would need to be run.

Peer node stats for MoCA adapter, viewed from Mini...
4-way splitter (terminator on input; MA, 2xMini, 1x75ohm)
TX/RX PHY Rate (Mbps): 274/283
TX/RX Power Estimate (dBm): -18/0.479​
4-way splitter (terminated MoCA filter on input; MA, 2xMini, 1x75ohm)
TX/RX PHY Rate (Mbps): 283/284
TX/RX Power Estimate (dBm): -27/0.479​
4-way splitter (OPEN input; MA, 2xMini, 1x75ohm)
TX/RX PHY Rate (Mbps): 283/284
TX/RX Power Estimate (dBm): -27/0.477​
4-way splitter (MA on input, 2xMini, 2x75ohm)
TX/RX PHY Rate (Mbps): 286/292
TX/RX Power Estimate (dBm): -27/0.402​
2-way splitter (MA on input; 2xMini)
TX/RX PHY Rate (Mbps): 288/292
TX/RX Power Estimate (dBm): -27/0.347​
Direct-connect: Mini to MoCA adapter
TX/RX PHY Rate (Mbps): 288/291
TX/RX Power Estimate (dBm): -27/0.314​
Well, yeah, the best results were direct-connecting the Mini to the MoCA adapter, but I'm not counting that.


----------



## jmerr74

Need a MOCA amplifier, I currently have an AMP in the junction box in my house that isn't MOCA compatible.


----------



## snerd

*Thanks for doing these experiments!*



krkaufman said:


> As expected, the best results were obtained by putting the MoCA adapter on the splitter's input leg, with improvement in dropping from a 4-way to 2-way splitter, and the worst results were from placing a 75ohm terminator on the input. The difference between the terminated MoCA filter on the input versus an open input was too close to really make a call. More tests would need to be run.


Interesting that all these tests show PHY rates at/above the nominal 275Mbps of the MoCA 1.1 spec (well, except for that 274 case). It shows how MoCA can adapt to different conditions on the coax.



> Peer node stats for MoCA adapter, viewed from Mini...
> 4-way splitter (terminator on input; MA, 2xMini, 1x75ohm)
> TX/RX PHY Rate (Mbps): 274/283
> TX/RX Power Estimate (dBm): -18/0.479​




If you're up for more experiments, it might be interesting to see the impact of removing the 75-ohm termination. I would expect lower PHY rates.



> 4-way splitter (terminated MoCA filter on input; MA, 2xMini, 1x75ohm)
> TX/RX PHY Rate (Mbps): 283/284
> TX/RX Power Estimate (dBm): -27/0.479​
> 4-way splitter (OPEN input; MA, 2xMini, 1x75ohm)
> TX/RX PHY Rate (Mbps): 283/284
> TX/RX Power Estimate (dBm): -27/0.477​


It isn't too surprising that the two cases above are virtually identical, since the PoE filter only adds maybe 0.5dB to 1.5dB of additional loss. On the other hand, that is insertion loss, which applies to signals passing through the filter -- these numbers are virtually identical, which may mean that the loss is smaller for reflected MoCA signals. A 0.5dB loss still means that about 11% of the RF power was absorbed.



> 4-way splitter (MA on input, 2xMini, 2x75ohm)
> TX/RX PHY Rate (Mbps): 286/292
> TX/RX Power Estimate (dBm): -27/0.402​


Might be interesting to see how removing one/both terminations changes the numbers here. The PHY rates might drop significantly more than any of the other cases.​


----------



## epstewart

JayMan747 said:


> I should have added that I have a FiOS router, so it is acting as the MOCA bridge. The Bolt and 2 Minis are connected via COAX. and was asking if a 3rd mini could connect via ethernet. -I move this TV from garage to patio, and cat5 (RJ-45) connection would be easier than a coax (F-type) connection.


Go for it! If you don't have to spend big bucks or bend over backward to get that Mini on Ethernet, just try it! If it works, you're golden. If it doesn't work, come back here and seek more help ...


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> *Thanks for doing these experiments!*


Not a problem; least I could do as payment for the background. Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman or snerd, would you explain how to interpret the TX/RX Power Estimate figures, and why they're crucial? Also, what's the big deal about whether signals on a MoCA network are reflected or not? Thanks.


----------



## fcfc2

jmerr74 said:


> Need a MOCA amplifier, I currently have an AMP in the junction box in my house that isn't MOCA compatible.


Hi,
If your amp is a single in and out, it can be configured by connecting it first at the main feed, but if it has multiple out ports is is a no go.
The least expensive multiport MoCA compatible amps I have found are the PPC EVO1-5-U/U and PPC EVO1-9-U/U which are readily available on Ebay but you must get the "newer" version which has a blue labeling. There is an older version with the same Model # but has red/maroon labeling and this one is not MoCA compatible. The blue ones are MoCA compatible but do not have a MoCA filter built in so you would need to add one to the input.
Edit: Thanks krkaufman


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> krkaufman or snerd, would you explain how to interpret the TX/RX Power Estimate figures, and why they're crucial?


Heh, the numbers don't completely make sense to me either. I thought MoCA was designed to transmit at essentially a fixed power level near 0dBm, with receivers adjusting gain as needed to get a clean signal, but that model of how it works seems inconsistent with the numbers from krkaufman's experiments. My own MoCA numbers all show a TX power of -15.0dBm and RX power numbers that are positive and below 0.5dBm.

The dBm scale is absolute power referenced to one milliwatt as 0dBm, and each 10dBm is a factor of 10, so -15dBm represents transmit power of 31.6 uW (micro-watts), -18dBm is 15.8 uW, and -27dBm is 2.0 uW. Tiny amounts of power. The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that the TX numbers are negative, indicating fractions of a mW, while an RX of 0.5dBm would be 1.12mW. It is physically impossible for the received power to be higher than transmitted power when there is no amplifier in the system, so the numbers as reported are baffling (that isn't a comment on the reporter -- I'm seeing the same kind of thing on my own equipment). I can only conclude that the numbers don't mean what they "should" mean (Inconceivable! [Princess Bride reference...]).

Ignoring absolutes, the -18dBm for the case with the terminated splitter input, compared to the -27dBm for the other cases, implies that the reflection from an open port (or PoE filter) is increasing the strength of the MoCA signals by about 9dB.



> Also, what's the big deal about whether signals on a MoCA network are reflected or not? Thanks.


Imagine a simple system with only a 2-way splitter and a Roamio Plus on one leg and a Mini on the other leg, and the input supplying catv signals for the Roamio, which creates the MoCA network and streams to the Mini.

Now imagine perfect splitters (not real world, slightly non-ideal splitters). With no MoCA PoE filter, the RF power sent out by the Roamio would go up through the splitter, where half the power would be absorbed and half would go out the catv feed. No RF power would ever reach the Mini, so a PoE filter would be absolutely essential to reflect the MoCA signals back down to the Mini.

Real world splitters don't quite work that way, and a tiny fraction of the RF power sent by the Roamio will "leak" to the other output port of the splitter and reach the Mini. They call this "port jumping" (or something like that). Typical splitters have port isolation of maybe 30dB, but MoCA can handle attenuation of 50dB, and that is why MoCA can work without a PoE filter. But, working that way is relying on what is essentially a defect in the splitter. Using a MoCA PoE filter, the signal reaching the Mini is only about 7dB lower than the transmitted power, so the PoE filter improves the signals strength by 23dB using the numbers in this contrived example. That is a factor of 200 increase in RF power.


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> Heh, the numbers don't completely make sense to me either. I thought MoCA was designed to transmit at essentially a fixed power level near 0dBm, with receivers adjusting gain as needed to get a clean signal, but that model of how it works seems inconsistent with the numbers from krkaufman's experiments. My own MoCA numbers all show a TX power of -15.0dBm and RX power numbers that are positive and below 0.5dBm.
> 
> The dBm scale is absolute power referenced to one milliwatt as 0dBm, and each 10dBm is a factor of 10, so -15dBm represents transmit power of 31.6 uW (micro-watts), -18dBm is 15.8 uW, and -27dBm is 2.0 uW. Tiny amounts of power. The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that the TX numbers are negative, indicating fractions of a mW, while an RX of 0.5dBm would be 1.12mW. It is physically impossible for the received power to be higher than transmitted power when there is no amplifier in the system, so the numbers as reported are baffling (that isn't a comment on the reporter -- I'm seeing the same kind of thing on my own equipment). I can only conclude that the numbers don't mean what they "should" mean (Inconceivable! [Princess Bride reference...]).
> 
> Ignoring absolutes, the -18dBm for the case with the terminated splitter input, compared to the -27dBm for the other cases, implies that the reflection from an open port (or PoE filter) is increasing the strength of the MoCA signals by about 9dB.
> 
> Imagine a simple system with only a 2-way splitter and a Roamio Plus on one leg and a Mini on the other leg, and the input supplying catv signals for the Roamio, which creates the MoCA network and streams to the Mini.
> 
> Now imagine perfect splitters (not real world, slightly non-ideal splitters). With no MoCA PoE filter, the RF power sent out by the Roamio would go up through the splitter, where half the power would be absorbed and half would go out the catv feed. No RF power would ever reach the Mini, so a PoE filter would be absolutely essential to reflect the MoCA signals back down to the Mini.
> 
> Real world splitters don't quite work that way, and a tiny fraction of the RF power sent by the Roamio will "leak" to the other output port of the splitter and reach the Mini. They call this "port jumping" (or something like that). Typical splitters have port isolation of maybe 30dB, but MoCA can handle attenuation of 50dB, and that is why MoCA can work without a PoE filter. But, working that way is relying on what is essentially a defect in the splitter. Using a MoCA PoE filter, the signal reaching the Mini is only about 7dB lower than the transmitted power, so the PoE filter improves the signals strength by 23dB using the numbers in this contrived example. That is a factor of 200 increase in RF power.


A lot to absorb here. Thanks.

I'm finding anomalous Network Status values on my Bolt. The TX and RX PHY rates are all 0.0002xx Mbps (!). I'm seeing TX Power Estimates of -14.00 and RX Power Estimates of -2.23x dBm. On my Roamio Plus, the PHY rates are all roughly 230.000 and the power estimates are small positive values. Those same expectable values apply also to my Mini.

The weird values on my Bolt might seem to imply very much impaired streaming and transfer rates from the Roamio Plus to the Bolt. But a test transfer gave me 112.92 Mb/s throughput. Another gave me 113.96 Mb/s. I would think these rates to be fairly normal for MoCA 1.1, but maybe other posters would disagree?

I do have a two-way splitter in the signal path to the Bolt which has lost its little decal giving its frequency range, so that's an X factor. There is also, downstream from that splitter, a four-way 5-1650 MHz splitter whose outputs feed the Bolt and two other devices. It has one unoccupied output. Upstream, there is a splitter where the Verizon FiOS signal enters my house in the basement, one output going to my Mini in the basement, one going up to the Roamio Plus on the first floor, and one going to the top floor where the Bolt, etc., and also my Verizon router reside.

In short, empirically I have had no reason to suspect any problems. Yet the Bolt's network status values seem inexplicably odd. Can snerd, krkaufman, or anyone else shed any light on all this? Thanks in advance.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> I'm finding anomalous Network Status values on my Bolt. The TX and RX PHY rates are all 0.0002xx Mbps (!). I'm seeing TX Power Estimates of -14.00 and RX Power Estimates of -2.23x dBm. ...
> 
> The weird values on my Bolt might seem to imply very much impaired streaming and transfer rates from the Roamio Plus to the Bolt. But a test transfer gave me 112.92 Mb/s throughput. Another gave me 113.96 Mb/s. I would think these rates to be fairly normal for MoCA 1.1, but maybe other posters would disagree?
> ...
> 
> In short, empirically I have had no reason to suspect any problems. Yet the Bolt's network status values seem inexplicably odd. Can snerd, krkaufman, or anyone else shed any light on all this? Thanks in advance.


Nope, just speculation.... Given that your BOLT's MoCA connection appears to be just fine, I have to wonder whether the update to MoCA 2.0 in the BOLT is causing some confusion in TiVo's Network Status probing routines.

Need to hear back from other BOLT users on what they're seeing for PHY rates, etc.

p.s. Though not explicitly updated for the BOLT, the tail end of *TiVo's "MoCA Troubleshooting" page, here* makes mention of expected PHY rates. ('gist: your BOLT numbers are whack!)


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> I'm finding anomalous Network Status values on my Bolt. The TX and RX PHY rates are all 0.0002xx Mbps (!).


p.s. If it were just a labeling issue, a 230 Mbps PHY rate would be reported as 0.230 Gbps -- but your report doesn't indicate the alternate units nor the correct factor.

Interestingly, a 230 Mbps PHY rate would translate to a MAC rate pretty close to what you've reported, according to the MoCA 1.1 specs (and the following handy chart included in the specs doc)...


krkaufman said:


> * For minimum expected network(MAC) rates relative to current PHY rate, see Table 2-2 in MoCA 1.1 specs doc, at: http://www.mocalliance.org/MoCA1/specification/MoCA_Specification_for_Device_RF_Characteristics.pdf (heh, or just take a look at this image, below, off BigJimOutlaw's photobucket.); also, any MoCA 1.1 adapter is often limited by its Ethernet port speed, typically Fast Ethernet at 100Mbps.


See also, here.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> A lot to absorb here. Thanks.


Sure thing, glad to help.



> I'm finding anomalous Network Status values on my Bolt. The TX and RX PHY rates are all 0.0002xx Mbps (!). I'm seeing TX Power Estimates of -14.00 and RX Power Estimates of -2.23x dBm. On my Roamio Plus, the PHY rates are all roughly 230.000 and the power estimates are small positive values. Those same expectable values apply also to my Mini.


You might want to let TiVo know about those weird PHY rates for the Bolt. They might want to fix that some day 

My TX power estimates were 0.0dB this morning rather than the -15.0dB that I saw previously. I'll have to check the numbers while streaming to see if they change.



> The weird values on my Bolt might seem to imply very much impaired streaming and transfer rates from the Roamio Plus to the Bolt. But a test transfer gave me 112.92 Mb/s throughput. Another gave me 113.96 Mb/s. I would think these rates to be fairly normal for MoCA 1.1, but maybe other posters would disagree?


I wouldn't worry about it as long that there are no functional issues. The numbers seem in line with section 2.2 of this MoCA 1.1 spec.

[Or just see krkaufman's post that I smeeked]


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Interestingly, a 230 Mbps PHY rate would translate to a MAC rate pretty close to what you've reported, according to the MoCA 1.1 specs.


Speculation: On my Bolt, the PHY rates are all roughly 0.0002xx Mbps. For example, 0.000221 Mbps. Perhaps the software has simply misplaced the decimal point in what should read 221 Mbps? The table in your post implies that would give MAC rates around 112-113 Mbps, as I am seeing.


----------



## kook04

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Splitters: In the event of signal issues (such as bad performance or devices not seeing each other), old or inadequate splitters are a common issue. Replace any old or inadequate splitters (rated less than 1000 MHz) with new splitters that are rated for 1000 MHz (1GHz) or higher. Some high-frequency (3-4 GHz) splitters originally intended for satellite can also cause moca signal problems. Those should be replaced as well.


If my splitter says 5Mhz - 1GHz, will that be sufficient? Or should the 1Ghz be the low end of the range that the splitter supports?


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> My TX power estimates were 0.0dB this morning rather than the -15.0dB that I saw previously.


I am also finding that my TX power numbers can jump around. I temporarily removed a key splitter in the signal path to my Bolt, and they dropped to -14.0 dBm when I reconnected the splitter. Then I restarted the Bolt and saw -3.00 dBm TX power (and also TX power estimates, which figures are shown separately for each MoCA device on the network, apparently).

Whoops! While I was writing the above all my TX power numbers dropped to -8.00 dBm ...


----------



## epstewart

kook04 said:


> If my splitter says 5Mhz - 1GHz, will that be sufficient? Or should the 1Ghz be the low end of the range that the splitter supports?


Not sufficient! A splitter needs to be 5 MHz-1650 MHz to support MoCA. If the top number is only 1000 MHz (1 GHz) that's fine for cable TV but won't be enough to pass the frequencies MoCA needs.


----------



## kook04

epstewart said:


> Not sufficient! A splitter needs to be 5 MHz-1650 MHz to support MoCA. If the top number is only 1000 MHz (1 GHz) that's fine for cable TV but won't be enough to pass the frequencies MoCA needs.


Ugggg.... this is a nightmare. It seems like getting Tivo mini running using MoCA (even when I have the Roamio Plus, which removes some steps) is an absolute mountain to climb.

1) I have Time Warner, so I have a Tuning Adapter, which adds to the headache

2) There are multiple splitters in my house, some buried in ceilings, walls, etc... I have no idea if they are all sufficient or not. Even if I did know, it would possibly involve replacing each of these splitters.

3) Depending on which one of the posts in this thread you read, you either need one, multiple, or possibly zero PoE filters.

To clarify... I am a software engineer of 20 years. I'm not someone's 65 year old grandmother. And, I'm still overwhelmed. How the hell does Tivo expect to ever get those 65 year old grandmothers as customers?

*So, my question:*

It will be a bit of pain, but it's now looking like just running another Ethernet wire through my walls from my router to the Mini is probably the easiest thing to do. "Easiest" in the sense that it should work without any of the extensive troubleshooting that a MoCA setup may require. Does that sound right to you guys?


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Speculation: On my Bolt, the PHY rates are all roughly 0.0002xx Mbps. For example, 0.000221 Mbps. Perhaps the software has simply misplaced the decimal point in what should read 221 Mbps? The table in your post implies that would give MAC rates around 112-113 Mbps, as I am seeing.


That's what I was trying to say, yes; correct.

Good thing they're just working with DVRs and not trying rocket science.


----------



## krkaufman

kook04 said:


> If my splitter says 5Mhz - 1GHz, will that be sufficient? Or should the 1Ghz be the low end of the range that the splitter supports?





epstewart said:


> Not sufficient! A splitter needs to be 5 MHz-1650 MHz to support MoCA. If the top number is only 1000 MHz (1 GHz) that's fine for cable TV but won't be enough to pass the frequencies MoCA needs.


This isn't entirely accurate.

It is recommended to get your splitters (and other coax infrastructure) upgraded to MoCA-rated/-compliant components, but many, many people are able to adequately support MoCA using 1GHz splitters. *IF* you try starting your MoCA engines and they sputter, then you'll definitely want to start taking a hard look at upgrading components.

Regardless, you'll want to have an understanding of how your coax lines route in your house and where they connect to each other, to determine whether all the connections are made and whether any non-compliant components (non-MoCA amps) may be sitting between your MoCA device locations.


----------



## krkaufman

kook04 said:


> 1) I have Time Warner, so I have a Tuning Adapter, which adds to the headache


Heh, yeah, that complicates things.

If I might inquire, how is your tuning adapter connected to your coax lines, and your Roamio Plus, as well? Is the Plus connected to the tuning adapters "RF/TV Out" port, or are they each connected directly to your coax lines using a splitter?


----------



## kook04

krkaufman said:


> If I might inquire, how is your tuning adapter connected to your coax lines, and your Roamio Plus, as well? Is the Plus connected to the tuning adapters "RF/TV Out" port, or are they each connected directly to your coax lines using a splitter?


Coax comes out of the wall into the Tuning Adapter, then out of the TA into the Roamio Plus. No splitter there.


----------



## krkaufman

kook04 said:


> Coax comes out of the wall into the Tuning Adapter, then out of the TA into the Roamio Plus. No splitter there.


Heh, that could be part of your MoCA issue (you're having a MoCA issue, right).

Try connecting your Roamio Plus and tuning adapter according to the following diagram...
_(click 'Show' to reveal diagram)_


Spoiler














... but *imagining that the MoCA adapter isn't there*!!! (Instead, the coax line should run from the splitter output to the Plus' coax input, and the Plus' Ethernet port needs to be connected to one of your router's LAN ports, or simply to your home network.)

edit: p.s. See also snerd's recommendation re: terminating the "RF Out" on the tuning adapter, from here:


snerd said:


> One more picky detail -- if your tuning adapter has both "coax in" and "coax out" ports (perhaps with different labels) then you may need to add a 75-ohm termination to the unused "coax out" port.


edit: p.p.s. See the following for additional details:

TCF post referencing TiVo's "tuning adapter w/ MoCA" setup notes
Cox's recommended/correct setup for a tuning adapter in a MoCA environment
'gist: TWC's tuning adapter installation instructions are MoCA-ignorant.


----------



## mdavej

Well there's your problem.


----------



## krkaufman

kook04 said:


> Ugggg.... this is a nightmare. It seems like getting Tivo mini running using MoCA (even when I have the Roamio Plus, which removes some steps) is an absolute mountain to climb.


I see you have a thread already going re: your Mini connection. In which thread do you wish to continue the troubleshooting?

(My recommendation is to post MoCA issues to this thread, since many TCFers are likely already subscribed to it and will receive notifications for new posts; new threads require browsing the forums to review what's on the plate.)


----------



## krkaufman

kook04 said:


> 3) Depending on which one of the posts in this thread you read, you either need one, multiple, or possibly zero PoE filters.


_You_ will want to get 2 MoCA filters installed:

1 for your cable provider's point-of-entry (PoE) to your home;
1 to put on the input to your tuning adapter;

...
*maybe* 1 add'l MoCA filter on your cable modem -- *IF* you begin experiencing modem/Internet connectivity issues after enabling MoCA, and if your modem doesn't already have a MoCA filter built-in. (h/t fcfc2)

Neither is *required* to fire-up MoCA and see if your devices connect, but you will need to get them both in place for security, performance and reliability... for both your MoCA network and your tuning adapter.

p.s. FYI...

Here's some background on the "PoE" MoCA filter, from a previous thread...


Hot4Bo said:


> Still not sure how or why I need a POE filter.


"Why?" ... See this TiVo link: https://www.tivo.com/assets/popups/popup_moca_poe.html

"How?" ... See this PDF document from TiVo: https://www.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/mytivo/POE_Instructions_Web.pdf​
... and here's the "what's up?" re: getting a MoCA filter placed on the input to your (properly split) tuning adapter:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10706105#post10706105​


----------



## snerd

kook04 said:


> To clarify... I am a software engineer of 20 years. I'm not someone's 65 year old grandmother. And, I'm still overwhelmed. How the hell does Tivo expect to ever get those 65 year old grandmothers as customers?


Look on the bright side, since this is a hardware issue, you don't have to worry about inadvertently dereferencing a null pointer, and no virus or trojans to worry about 



> It will be a bit of pain, but it's now looking like just running another Ethernet wire through my walls from my router to the Mini is probably the easiest thing to do. "Easiest" in the sense that it should work without any of the extensive troubleshooting that a MoCA setup may require. Does that sound right to you guys?


Sure, that would work too. One advantage of MoCA is that data streaming from the Roamio to the Mini remains confined to the coax so that it doesn't bog down the LAN. But with only the one Mini, you're not really in danger of overloading the LAN even if you have only older 10/100 Mbps equipment.

You can still try out MoCA without swapping out any old crappy splitters and it might work fine. MoCA was designed to adapt to non-ideal coax. The real problem is the tuning adapter probably won't pass MoCA signals, so you'll need a 2-way splitter and a PoE filter for the tuning adapter, as krkaufman described.

As an experiment, you could temporarily disconnect the tuning adapter and run the cable from the wall directly to the Roamio to see if the MoCA signals can get through whatever splitters you currently have in place. If that does work, then adding a 2-way splitter an PoE filter for the tuning adapter, plus a PoE filter at the input of the main splitter, will almost certainly work as well.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> that's what i was trying to say, yes; correct.
> 
> Good thing they're just working with dvrs and not trying rocket science.


lol!


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> You can still try out MoCA without swapping out any old crappy splitters and it might work fine. MoCA was designed to adapt to non-ideal coax. The real problem is the tuning adapter probably won't pass MoCA signals, so you'll need a 2-way splitter and a PoE filter for the tuning adapter, as krkaufman described.
> 
> As an experiment, you could temporarily disconnect the tuning adapter and run the cable from the wall directly to the Roamio to see if the MoCA signals can get through whatever splitters you currently have in place. If that does work, then adding a 2-way splitter an PoE filter for the tuning adapter, plus a PoE filter at the input of the main splitter, will almost certainly work as well.


What he said! If it works, it works ...


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Neither is *required* to fire-up MoCA and see if your devices connect, but you will need to get them both in place for security, performance and reliability... for both your MoCA network and your tuning adapter.


Hear, hear! First, you should do the practical stuff recommended in the earlier posts just to get MoCA working with the Mini. But then, second, you should attend to matters of "security, performance and reliability," all the while making sure at each new step that the basic MoCA capability of the Mini does not go poof ...


----------



## abs16

Hi all. I'm trying to get a TiVo Mini connected to our Roamio Pro over MoCA, and having a hard time. I've got a Motorola cable modem, connected to an Apple AirPort Extreme, which handles DHCP & NAT for the network. The Roamio Pro is connected to the AirPort Extreme using ethernet, and is set up to be the MoCA bridge for the network. The TiVo Mini can connect to the Roamio over MoCA, and gets an IP address, but can't connect to the Internet. Additionally, I'm getting Double NAT errors on the AirPort Extreme, and can't connect to the Internet from any device on the network whenever the Mini connects to the Roamio over MoCA.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance!


----------



## fcfc2

abs16 said:


> Hi all. I'm trying to get a TiVo Mini connected to our Roamio Pro over MoCA, and having a hard time. I've got a Motorola cable modem, connected to an Apple AirPort Extreme, which handles DHCP & NAT for the network. The Roamio Pro is connected to the AirPort Extreme using ethernet, and is set up to be the MoCA bridge for the network. The TiVo Mini can connect to the Roamio over MoCA, and gets an IP address, but can't connect to the Internet. Additionally, I'm getting Double NAT errors on the AirPort Extreme, and can't connect to the Internet from any device on the network whenever the Mini connects to the Roamio over MoCA.
> 
> Any thoughts? Thanks in advance!


Hi,
A couple questions, is your cable modem a modem only or is it a Gateway type with wireless builtin? I never heard of a single router having double NAT issues.
How did you setup your MoCA on the Roamio, with the "create a MoCA network" or "connect via MoCA".


----------



## abs16

fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> A couple questions, is your cable modem a modem only or is it a Gateway type with wireless builtin? I never heard of a single router having double NAT issues.
> How did you setup your MoCA on the Roamio, with the "create a MoCA network" or "connect via MoCA".


The modem is a basic Motorola Surfboard, with no wireless. I am using the Roamio to create the MoCA network. The network has been set up this way for a few years, with no issues.


----------



## fcfc2

abs16 said:


> The modem is a basic Motorola Surfboard, with no wireless. I am using the Roamio to create the MoCA network. The network has been set up this way for a few years, with no issues.


This sounds like a router issue from your description. I am not an Apple guy, but I would reboot the modem and Airport Extreme. I would also try to set a fixed/static IP for all of the Tivo devices.


----------



## krkaufman

fcfc2 said:


> I would also try to set a fixed/static IP for all of the Tivo devices.


Heh, I was going to ask if maybe they'd already done that and perhaps had accidentally assigned an IP address already in use, or misconfigured their IP settings.


----------



## abs16

krkaufman said:


> Heh, I was going to ask if maybe they'd already done that and perhaps had accidentally assigned an IP address already in use, or misconfigured their IP settings.


I've tried both static IPs and DHCP for both the Roamio and Mini. I did a bit of troubleshooting, and found that normally, my AirPort router has a public IP address for its WAN interface, and then hands out addresses on the 192.168.1.0/24 network for connected clients, including the Roamio. However, when I connect the Mini using MoCA, it receives the correct IP address, as configured in the DHCP reservations within the AirPort, but then the AirPort's WAN interface changes IP addresses to one on the 192.168.100.0/24 network, which appears to be used by the cable modem. I can't figure out if this is a cable modem issue or an AirPort issue.


----------



## krkaufman

abs16 said:


> I've tried both static IPs and DHCP for both the Roamio and Mini. I did a bit of troubleshooting, and found that normally, my AirPort router has a public IP address for its WAN interface, and then hands out addresses on the 192.168.1.0/24 network for connected clients, including the Roamio. However, when I connect the Mini using MoCA, it receives the correct IP address, as configured in the DHCP reservations within the AirPort, but then the AirPort's WAN interface changes IP addresses to one on the 192.168.100.0/24 network, which appears to be used by the cable modem. I can't figure out if this is a cable modem issue or an AirPort issue.


Wherever the problem lies, it's bizarre that it's only triggered by the Mini connecting. The Mini's Ethernet port isn't plugged in anywhere, is it?

Are the Mini and Roamio your only MoCA devices?


----------



## krkaufman

abs16 said:


> The modem is a basic Motorola Surfboard, with no wireless. I am using the Roamio to create the MoCA network. The network has been set up this way for a few years, with no issues.


So it's strictly a modem and couldn't try being a router/gateway even if it were a motivated over-achiever, right?

p.s. Have you verified that both the modem and AirPort are both on their latest firmware versions? (best to check vendor websites, rather than relying on built-in update checks; *see here* and here)


----------



## abs16

krkaufman said:


> Wherever the problem lies, it's bizarre that it's only triggered by the Mini connecting. The Mini's Ethernet port isn't plugged in anywhere, is it?
> 
> Are the Mini and Roamio your only MoCA devices?


The Mini and Roamio are the only two MoCA devices we have in the house. The Mini's ethernet port isn't plugged in, either.

I believe the modem we have is a Motorola SB5100. I'm wondering if a switch to a newer modem would resolve the issue.

Thanks again for your help.


----------



## krkaufman

abs16 said:


> The Mini and Roamio are the only two MoCA devices we have in the house. The Mini's ethernet port isn't plugged in, either.
> 
> I believe the modem we have is a Motorola SB5100. I'm wondering if a switch to a newer modem would resolve the issue.


A good chance.

(be right back)


----------



## krkaufman

abs16 said:


> The Mini and Roamio are the only two MoCA devices we have in the house. The Mini's ethernet port isn't plugged in, either.
> 
> I believe the modem we have is a Motorola SB5100. I'm wondering if a switch to a newer modem would resolve the issue.


On reading a bit more.... YES, upgrade that thing. Who is your cable provider such that they are still supporting it? (It's DOCSIS 2.0; e.g. Comcast EoL'd DOCSIS 2.0 over a year ago)

Does your provider offer any help in identifying a compatible modem for their service, similar to this web page from Comcast?
http://mydeviceinfo.comcast.net/​
And I'm curious, do you know what your Internet speeds are supposed to be (that is, what you're paying for)? And how do they compare to what you're seeing, from a laptop/PC wired to your router (and connecting to the Internet via your SB5100)? (see speedtest.net)

p.s. I'm not guaranteeing that upgrading the modem will fix your problem, but you may see other benefits.

p.p.s. See also *SB6141 vs SB6121 (or other)?*


----------



## krkaufman

If you have a spare "PoE" MoCA filter around, or even a SATellite diplexer, you could put a MoCA filter on the input to the modem to see if that fixes the glitch.

(Thinking about it... since you have just the 2 MoCA devices, and the Roamio is communicating over Ethernet, the MoCA traffic only hits your coax when you power-up the Mini... which freaks the modem out. Put a MoCA filter on the modem and it shouldn't see the Mini and Roamio MoCA chatter.)

p.s. Good job finding the "WAN" IP address change on the AirPort, and thanks for that modem model number. My personal experience led me to assume that "Surfboard" necessarily meant an upgraded DOCSIS 3.0 Surfboard model (with most of the D3.0 Surfboards having built-in MoCA filters).


----------



## abs16

krkaufman said:


> If you have a spare "PoE" MoCA filter around, or even a SATellite diplexer, you could put a MoCA filter on the input to the modem to see if that fixes the glitch.
> 
> (Thinking about it... since you have just the 2 MoCA devices, and the Roamio is communicating over Ethernet, the MoCA traffic only hits your coax when you power-up the Mini... which freaks the modem out. Put a MoCA filter on the modem and it shouldn't see the Mini and Roamio MoCA chatter.)
> 
> p.s. Good job finding the "WAN" IP address change on the AirPort, and thanks for that modem model number. My personal experience led me to assume that "Surfboard" necessarily meant an upgraded DOCSIS 3.0 Surfboard model (with most of the D3.0 Surfboards having built-in MoCA filters).


Thanks a lot for the help. I actually just came back to the PC after thinking that a MoCA filter connected to the modem might do the trick. I was looking at newer cable modems to replace ours with, and started wondering why some advertised that they had a built-in MoCA filter. Once I connected the filter to the input on the modem, the Mini connected to the Roamio without any issues, and other devices can still reach the Internet.

We're stuck with a smaller cable provider for now. I called earlier today, and found that they do have newer models available. We haven't seen many network issues other than occasional slowness, and seem to be getting close to the 25 Mbps that we pay for most of the time. Hopefully the upgrade to a DOCSIS 3.0 modem resolves some of the issues we've seen.

Thanks again for all of the help. I was about ready to give up on the Mini working in our house.


----------



## krkaufman

Good deal; thanks for the update re: your success. Well done.


----------



## epstewart

abs16 said:


> Thanks a lot for the help. I actually just came back to the PC after thinking that a MoCA filter connected to the modem might do the trick. I was looking at newer cable modems to replace ours with, and started wondering why some advertised that they had a built-in MoCA filter. Once I connected the filter to the input on the modem, the Mini connected to the Roamio without any issues, and other devices can still reach the Internet.


Good call, krkaufman! Any possibility you could explain to me why the absence of a MoCA filter on the input to the cable modem would have caused abs16's problem?


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Good call, krkaufman! Any possibility you could explain to me why the absence of a MoCA filter on the input to the cable modem would have caused abs16's problem?


Actually, it sounds like abs16 got there on their own IRL, in parallel to my making the suggestion.

As for the why, I *think* I *tried* doing that a few posts above, *here*. (see the parenthesized text) My guess is just that the modem is so old that it really doesn't react well to the MoCA signals. If you need more than that, we'll have to wait for BigJimOutlaw, snerd or fcfc2, or somebody else.

p.s. I *might* have thought to suggest the MoCA filter sooner, as soon as he mentioned the model number, but I was just too startled by it being the same model modem Comcast made me get rid of nearly 2 years ago, when they started sending out their DOCSIS 2.0 EoL warnings. I got too hung-up on that and that they probably weren't getting their advertised Internet speeds and forgot we were trying to deal with a MoCA problem.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> As for the why, I *think* I *tried* doing that a few posts above, *here*. (see the parenthesized text) My guess is just that the modem is so old that it really doesn't react well to the MoCA signals. If you need more than that, we'll have to wait for BigJimOutlaw, snerd or fcfc2, or somebody else.


OK, I get it now. The idea as you broached it earlier was to shield the obsolete modem from the MoCA "chatter" between the Roamio and the Mini.

abs16, kudos on figuring it out on your own! Did you just happen to have a MoCA filter lying around?

Edit: Good YouTube video on MoCA, MoCA filters, and MoCA splitters:


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Edit: Good YouTube video on MoCA, MoCA filters, and MoCA splitters:


Heh, yeah, I'd suggested to jmerr74 that he post that video, here, after he'd said that it had really helped him understand MoCA (where previous explanations hadn't)-- but it looks like he'd already posted it in a parallel thread.

Definitely worth the 6 minutes.


----------



## krkaufman

jmerr74 said:


> I just had a Comcast tech come out to my house (I'm still learning) he basically setup my house the way they do for X1. He added a POE filter to the mainline in the drop box, before it splits off from there to my modem and coax in my house. I asked him if I needed a new splitter he said "it would work, this is what we use"...he also gave me a filter for my modem.





fcfc2 said:


> Hi, Your Dlink cable modem is not MoCA friendly, pretty certain you will have issues unless you put a filter on the input port.


You won't need to put a MoCA filter on your cable modem *IF* you are connecting the cable modem's coax input to the "RF Out" of the MoCA adapter. The MoCA adapter doesn't pass MoCA signals through its output port.

The MoCA filter *might* be needed if you connect the modem directly to your MoCA-infused coax lines via a splitter.


----------



## krkaufman

jmerr74 said:


> I just had a Comcast tech come out to my house (I'm still learning) he basically setup my house the way they do for X1. He added a POE filter to the mainline in the drop box, before it splits off from there to my modem and coax in my house. I asked him if I needed a new splitter he said "it would work, this is what we use"...he also gave me a filter for my modem.
> 
> _(diagram deleted)_
> 
> Diagram is archaic, but I think I got most of it.


The following text diagram attempts to demonstrate one way you could go with your connections, trying to leverage the MoCA adapters' "RF Out" ports, initially, to avoid the need for any additional splits.



Code:


Legend:  ]- COAX    >= Ethernet    | intra-device link


Comcast PoE ]- "PoE" MoCA Filter ]- Splitter 1 (2-way) |1]- [LivingRoom]- Splitter 2 (2-way) |1]- MoCA adapter "RF In" |"RF Out"  ]- Modem (D-Link 301) >= Router "WAN" port
                                                       |                                     |                         |
                                                       |                                     |                         |"Ethernet">======================= Router "LAN" port
                                                       |                                     | 
                                                       |                                     |
                                                       |                                     |2]- TiVo Mini
                                                       |
                                                       |
                                                       |2]- [Closet]- Amp (4-way) |1]- [Bedroom 1]- TiVo Mini
                                                                                  |
                                                                                  |2]- [Bedroom 2]- TiVo Mini
                                                                                  |
                                                                                  |3]- [Bedroom 3]- 75-ohm terminator
                                                                                  |
                                                                                  |4]- [Fam. Room]- MoCA adapter "RF In" |"RF Out"  ]- TiVo Roamio "Coax In" port
                                                                                                                         |
                                                                                                                         |"Ethernet">= TiVo Roamio "Ethernet" port

.


----------



## fcfc2

krkaufman said:


> A good chance.
> 
> (be right back)


Hi,
I believe krkaufman's diagnosis is correct regarding the MoCA interference with the old SB5100. That is not MoCA friendly, the newer SB6141 would be a good "value" purchase at this time and it does have a builtin MoCA filter. If you want to get the max life there is the newer SB6183 which is currently on sale for about $90 at several places. If you want to try and stretch that 5100's life a bit more, the cheaper route is to just add a MoCA filter. You might also get a Sat grade diplexer to get it working also, just add it before the modem and feed the modem with the "antenna" leg. Put a 75 ohm terminator on the Sat. leg.


----------



## abs16

epstewart said:


> OK, I get it now. The idea as you broached it earlier was to shield the obsolete modem from the MoCA "chatter" between the Roamio and the Mini.
> 
> abs16, kudos on figuring it out on your own! Did you just happen to have a MoCA filter lying around?
> 
> Edit: Good YouTube video on MoCA, MoCA filters, and MoCA splitters:


I actually ordered a MoCA filter and two MoCA-compatible splitters shortly after receiving the TiVo Mini (and seeing that it didn't work). I put the new splitters in and installed the filter before the first splitter. However, after testing the Mini with no change, I took the MoCA filter out.

What really got me thinking that it might be the cable modem is that when I ran the Network Status utility on the Roamio without the Mini connected, it showed that MoCA was "Down". However, viewing Network Status when the Mini was connected showed that MoCA was "Up". It seems like even though the Roamio was acting as the MoCA bridge, there was no MoCA traffic until the Mini was connected. Between that, the behavior of the modem when the Mini was connected, and realizing that newer cable modems have the MoCA filters built in, I thought it was worth trying to block the MoCA traffic to the modem.


----------



## krkaufman

abs16 said:


> I actually ordered a MoCA filter and two MoCA-compatible splitters shortly after receiving the TiVo Mini (and seeing that it didn't work). I put the new splitters in and *installed the filter before the first splitter. However, after testing the Mini with no change, I took the MoCA filter out*.


You'll want to get that "PoE" MoCA filter back in place on your main splitter, when you can -- though you might want to document your MoCA stats before and after, to see to what degree the MoCA filter improves the signals.


----------



## fcfc2

krkaufman said:


> Actually, it sounds like abs16 got their on their own IRL, in parallel to my making the suggestion.
> 
> As for the why, I *think* I *tried* doing that a few posts above, *here*. (see the parenthesized text) My guess is just that the modem is so old that it really doesn't react well to the MoCA signals. If you need more than that, we'll have to wait for BigJimOutlaw, snerd or fcfc2, or somebody else.
> 
> p.s. I *might* have thought to suggest the MoCA filter sooner, as soon as he mentioned the model number, but I was just too startled by it being the same model modem Comcast made me get rid of nearly 2 years ago, when they started sending out their DOCSIS 2.0 EoL warnings. I got too hung-up on that and that they probably weren't getting their advertised Internet speeds and forgot we were trying to deal with a MoCA problem.


Hi,
I don't have more than a layman's understanding and some experience regarding the MoCa "interference" issue but here goes. My understanding is that the MoCA devices have an "AGC" or automatic gain circuit as part of their basic makeup to help make the connection and overcome the variables in the different signal loss environments. It seems that in the process of adjusting that MoCA frequencies strength, it can produce what used to be called "Harmonic" interference. This manifested by causing interference repeatedly from the low end to the higher end of the catv band. Not every channel would be affected and sometimes this would miss the very low band used by cable modems but because of the "automatic" changes in strength it would either permanently or semi-permanently hit it and kill the internet and on legacy cable boxes you might find every few channels messed up or have buzzing on the audio. Back in those days, MoCA filters were hard to find and a common work around was to use diplexers for a fix.
Someone else may provide a better technical explanation or have a look here for more information. http://www.radioing.com/eengineer/rfi.html


----------



## abs16

krkaufman said:


> You'll want to get that "PoE" MoCA filter back in place on your main splitter, when you can -- though you might want to document your MoCA stats before and after, to see to what degree the MoCA filter improves the signals.


Thanks! I do plan to do that. I'm hoping to have the cable modem replaced this week or next, and then move the filter back to the cable ingress point, assuming the new modem doesn't have the same problem that the old one did.


----------



## krkaufman

abs16 said:


> Thanks! I do plan to do that. I'm hoping to have the cable modem replaced this week or next, and then move the filter back to the cable ingress point, assuming the new modem doesn't have the same problem that the old one did.


Oh, duh. I was thinking you had multiple MoCA filters, for some reason. Yeah, obviously it's where it need to be, for the moment.

But a question... Do you have any satellite diplexers lying around? A diplexer could be used in place of a MoCA filter, at least temporarily, if properly connected, as fcfc2 described just above:


fcfc2 said:


> You might also get a Sat grade diplexer to get it working also, just add it before the modem and feed the modem with the "antenna" leg. Put a 75 ohm terminator on the Sat. leg.


----------



## abs16

krkaufman said:


> Oh, duh. I was thinking you had multiple MoCA filters, for some reason. Yeah, obviously it's where it need to be, for the moment.
> 
> But a question... Do you have any satellite diplexers lying around? A diplexer could be used in place of a MoCA filter, at least temporarily, if properly connected, as fcfc2 described just above:


Unfortunately, I don't have any here. I had just been using whatever splitters were installed when I moved in. I'm hopeful that the next cable modem we get will have a built-in MoCA filter. If not, I'll spend the extra $8 or so to get another one for the cable ingress point.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> The following text diagram attempts to demonstrate one way you could go with your connections, trying to leverage the MoCA adapters' "RF Out" ports, initially, to avoid the need for any additional splits ...
> 
> (diagram omitted)


This was a useful diagram for many other MoCA users, I suspect. A question: the 75-ohm terminator shown in Bedroom 3 is actually on the 4-way amp itself, right?


----------



## epstewart

Hi, All,

I'm trying to devise some diagrams that will be of help to newbies in this thread. I find I'm suffering from "ozone in the know zone" on the attached diagram.

What I'm trying to show is a situation where one of the TiVo DVRs is a model that is not MoCA-ready. It uses a MoCA network adapter instead. My original version of this diagram had an Ethernet cable running from the MoCA-ready TiVo at the extreme left to the router. Then I began to think that the presence of the MoCA adapter connected to the other TiVo obviates the need for that Ethernet cable, in that the MoCA adapter acts as a bridge between MoCA and Ethernet, and it accordingly creates the MoCA network all by itself. No need to have the other TiVo create the MoCA network.

But I can't quite convince myself of this. Do I need to put back in the Ethernet cable from the leftmost TiVo to the router?

Also, any other comments are welcome. I am trying to use similar diagrams to document the various cases BigJimOutlaw covered in the original post in this thread.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> This was a useful diagram for many other MoCA users, I suspect. A question: the 75-ohm terminator shown in Bedroom 3 is actually on the 4-way amp itself, right?


It should be placed there, yeah, but that would've made the diagram less uniform.  Terminating at the amp would be best, but I believe terminating at the coax outlet would be the next best thing. Better than leaving it unterminated, anyway.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> What I'm trying to show is a situation where one of the TiVo DVRs is a model that is not MoCA-ready. It uses a MoCA network adapter instead. My original version of this diagram had an Ethernet cable running from the MoCA-ready TiVo at the extreme left to the router.


That would have been correct, as the "extreme left" DVR could then have been creating the MoCA network to which both the Mini and MoCA adapter could attach.

The mere presence of an Ethernet cable doesn't do anything. That Ethernet cable must connect back, somehow, to one of your router's LAN ports in order for the "MoCA-creating" device to bridge between the MoCA segment and your router (and the Internet).

The simplest solution for the diagram, as currently depicted, would be to have a MoCA adapter co-located with the modem & router, to create the MoCA network. So, absent that Ethernet run, 2 MoCA adapters are required.

However, if one of the rooms (e.g. that "extreme left" room) did somehow have an Ethernet run back to the router, then you could have two options:

Connect everything as you had it before, with the "extreme left" DVR creating the MoCA network, or...

Switch the two left DVRs, and attach that Ethernet run to a switch in the "extreme left" room, to which you could (1) attach the MoCA adapter to create your MoCA network, (2) attach the non-MoCA DVR and (3) attach other Ethernet devices;

And the MoCA-ready DVR could then be placed in the coax-only room and "connect using MoCA," but provide Ethernet access to other devices via its otherwise unused Ethernet port.
One MoCA adapter required, either way, but an extra network switch is neded in the latter scenario.

p.s. Really, the same thing could be done without flipping the DVRs between rooms; the key is just connecting the Ethernet run to a switch, instead of directly into the MoCA-creating device (a MoCA-ready DVR or MoCA adapter).

The only advantage I see in using the setup in bullet 2, above, is that it would allow you the flexibility of selecting the MoCA version (1.1, 2.0) for your bridge, and your MoCA connectivity to the Internet wouldn't be disrupted by a DVR reboot.


----------



## HarperVision

epstewart said:


> ......... Do I need to put back in the Ethernet cable from the leftmost TiVo to the router? ......


Yes, the TiVo that's creating the moca network needs Ethernet from the router, unless your modem can provide moca, which some do.

PS - Oooops KRK beat me to it. Carry on my wayward son.......


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Also, any other comments are welcome. I am trying to use similar diagrams to document the various cases BigJimOutlaw covered in the original post in this thread.


It's picking nits but I find "black" for drawing coax connections makes the most sense. (And I've evolved to orange for USB, yellow for Ethernet LAN, blue for Ethernet WAN.)

Kudos on the motivation.


----------



## solstice

Just received an email from one websites I shop from that the that Actiontec Bonded MoCA 2.0 Network Adapter (ECB6200) is finally in stock! 

Had been waiting for a few weeks for these to become available again. Wouldn't you know it, I had checked various sites again yesterday and earliest availability was mid January. So I gave in and ordered the ECB2500C from TiVo yesterday. Hopefully fast ethernet speeds are all I'll ever need.


----------



## krkaufman

solstice said:


> Just received an email from one websites I shop from that the that Actiontec Bonded MoCA 2.0 Network Adapter (ECB6200) is finally in stock!
> 
> Had been waiting for a few weeks for these to become available again. Wouldn't you know it, I had checked various sites again yesterday and earliest availability was mid January. So I gave in and ordered the ECB2500C from TiVo yesterday. Hopefully fast ethernet speeds are all I'll ever need.


Murphy's a busy guy.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Also, any other comments are welcome. I am trying to use similar diagrams to document the various cases BigJimOutlaw covered in the original post in this thread.


Again, kudos to you for making the effort. I had contemplated doing the same, but hadn't gotten around to it. Aside from the single diagram and deliberation over colors , I did a tiny bit of searching to see if there was some sort of web-based network diagramming tool that could be leveraged to facilitate the creation of diagrams, allowing one or more "admin-ish" users to update the available graphics with common clip art for a TiVo environment. I didn't find anything (immediately, obviously) useful in my brief search.

Short of the web-based diagramming tool, I had contemplated simply creating a thread for dumping common graphics into, to make creating diagrams somewhat easier.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> This was a useful diagram for many other MoCA users, I suspect. A question: the 75-ohm terminator shown in Bedroom 3 is actually on the 4-way amp itself, right?


Putting it on the amp means you would have to disconnect the coax that runs to Bedroom 3. That seems like a bad idea to me, because if you forget that the coax in Bedroom 3 isn't connected to anything, it would be really puzzling later to add a Mini there and not have it work. I can also imagine someone finding that later a saying "oh, that coax needs to be connected" and forgetting to move the termination to the wall port in Bedroom 3.

Terminations are to prevent reflections on coax. Adding them to the end of coax, at all wall ports that are unused, and leaving the coax in-play is the method I prefer.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> I'm trying to devise some diagrams that will be of help to newbies in this thread. I find I'm suffering from "ozone in the know zone" on the attached diagram.


Nice work. I'd suggest adding an "unused" wall plate with a 75-ohm termination attached.

I'd also suggest showing a splitter with PoE filter attached to the input, and a 75-ohm termination on an unused output of the splitter.

And perhaps an example with a tuning adapter with PoE filter.

The example with MoCA adapter to non-MoCA-TiVo should make it clear that the TiVo connects to the "TV/STB out" port of the MoCA adapter.

Oh and there's the case where a MoCA adapter is used at the cable modem and the cable modem connects to the "TV/STB out" port of the MoCA adapter so that no PoE filter is needed.

Hmm, sounds like a lot of "feature creep" already. That's kind of a problem, because if you show all possible connections, then it remains confusing as to which ones apply to a new installation.

I also think there is a fundamental problem with helping newbies in that they hardly ever supply enough information when asking for help. This isn't really their fault, it is just inherent when trying to get a handle on unfamiliar technology. The correct answer to their original post is almost always "it depends" followed by questions to find out the specific details that they didn't know we would need in order to help them. This is further complicated by the fact that there is almost always multiple solutions, depending on which rooms have both coax+cat5e/6 and which rooms have only one or the other. Then add WiFi and Powerline and OTA, and special instructions for FiOS users that already have MoCA enabled, and special instructions for FiOS users that don't have MoCA enabled...

I personally believe that any diagrams that are simple enough for newbies to use will be too simple to cover all of the cases that newbies are likely to encounter, but maybe that is just my inner cynical old fart talking.


----------



## snerd

krkaufman said:


> It's picking nits but I find "black" for drawing coax connections makes the most sense. (And I've evolved to orange for USB, yellow for Ethernet LAN, blue for Ethernet WAN.)
> 
> Kudos on the motivation.


What colors do you suggest for distinguishing between coax that has only catv signals as opposed to coax that has both MoCA and catv signals?


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> Putting it on the amp means you would have to disconnect the coax that runs to Bedroom 3. That seems like a bad idea to me, because if you forget that the coax in Bedroom 3 isn't connected to anything, it would be really puzzling later to add a Mini there and not have it work. I can also imagine someone finding that later a saying "oh, that coax needs to be connected" and forgetting to move the termination to the wall port in Bedroom 3.
> 
> Terminations are to prevent reflections on coax. Adding them to the end of coax, at all wall ports that are unused, and leaving the coax in-play is the method I prefer.


ha!, I'd actually updated the diagram to put the terminator directly on the amp, and saved the changes... and then went back and reverted them all when I decided the same thing: that I'd prefer to have the terminator on the wall outlet, letting me know that that outlet is connected centrally, rather than putting the term on the amp and having to remember whether a given outlet is connected or not.


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> What colors do you suggest for distinguishing between coax that has only catv signals as opposed to coax that has both MoCA and catv signals?


Don't forget about MoCA-only, DECA-only, OTA antenna, Satellite, ...

My answer is "black" -- but I suppose I opened myself up to that question by distinguishing between Ethernet LAN & WAN.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> It's picking nits but I find "black" for drawing coax connections makes the most sense. (And I've evolved to orange for USB, yellow for Ethernet LAN, blue for Ethernet WAN.) Kudos on the motivation.





snerd said:


> What colors do you suggest for distinguishing between coax that has only catv signals as opposed to coax that has both MoCA and catv signals?


 Easy, for all us 80's Hair Metal Heads! "The Yellow and Black Attack" Lives!


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> That would have been correct, as the "extreme left" DVR could then have been creating the MoCA network to which both the Mini and MoCA adapter could attach.
> 
> The mere presence of an Ethernet cable doesn't do anything. That Ethernet cable must connect back, somehow, to one of your router's LAN ports in order for the "MoCA-creating" device to bridge between the MoCA segment and your router (and the Internet).
> 
> The simplest solution for the diagram, as currently depicted, would be to have a MoCA adapter co-located with the modem & router, to create the MoCA network. So, absent that Ethernet run, 2 MoCA adapters are required.
> 
> However, if one of the rooms (e.g. that "extreme left" room) did somehow have an Ethernet run back to the router, then you could have two options:
> 
> Connect everything as you had it before, with the "extreme left" DVR creating the MoCA network, or...
> 
> Switch the two left DVRs, and attach that Ethernet run to a switch in the "extreme left" room, to which you could (1) attach the MoCA adapter to create your MoCA network, (2) attach the non-MoCA DVR and (3) attach other Ethernet devices;
> 
> And the MoCA-ready DVR could then be placed in the coax-only room and "connect using MoCA," but provide Ethernet access to other devices via its otherwise unused Ethernet port.
> One MoCA adapter required, either way, but an extra network switch is neded in the latter scenario.
> 
> p.s. Really, the same thing could be done without flipping the DVRs between rooms; the key is just connecting the Ethernet run to a switch, instead of directly into the MoCA-creating device (a MoCA-ready DVR or MoCA adapter).
> 
> The only advantage I see in using the setup in bullet 2, above, is that it would allow you the flexibility of selecting the MoCA version (1.1, 2.0) for your bridge, and your MoCA connectivity to the Internet wouldn't be disrupted by a DVR reboot.


OK, I'm going to begin trying to respond to this and all the other excellent responses to my earlier post containing my candidate MoCA diagram. I do have a lot to cover.

First of all, I am now attaching my original version of the same diagram. It's the diagram on the left below. It has an Ethernet run from the MoCA-ready TiVo to the router, whereas the first diagram I presented earlier to you guys did not. (The non-MoCA TiVo still has a MoCA adapter, and my lingering area of confusion is this: why does that adapter not itself "create" the MoCA network so that the other TiVo doesn't have to? I don't get that.)

My confusion doubtless emerges from the facts that (a) I have Verizon FiOS, with a router that creates the MoCA network; and (b) I do not have a MoCA adapter anywhere in my network.

Other comments as they occur to me:

My diagrams are somewhat "agnostic" as to the devices being in different rooms, or not, though I do show different coax wall outlets (mainly because I didn't want to get bogged down in showing all the splitters, amplifiers, filters etc. that lie behind those outlets).

I do have several other diagrams in the series. I am also attaching one now that has a MoCA adapter associated with the router and cable modem. It's on the right below. Later on in this discussion I can post one that shows a router such as I myself have that integrates MoCA creation and also integrates the cable modem; and one that shows a cable modem that has built-in MoCA creation but is separate from the router. Each of the four major diagrams has sub-versions having the TiVo that is second-from-left being also one that is MoCA-ready, instead of one that is not.

Anyway, the second attachment to this post addresses krkaufman's "The simplest solution for the diagram, as currently depicted, would be to have a MoCA adapter co-located with the modem & router, to create the MoCA network. So, absent that Ethernet run, 2 MoCA adapters are required." I hope it is itself correctly drawn ...

krkaufman, you also (in the main quote above) address this possibility:



> Switch the two left DVRs, and attach that Ethernet run [from the router] to a switch in the "extreme left" room, to which you could (1) attach the MoCA adapter to create your MoCA network, (2) attach the non-MoCA DVR and (3) attach other Ethernet devices


Via the switch, then, the router, the non-MoCA DVR, the MoCA adapter, and possibly other Ethernet devices would be interconnected in such a way as to "create" the MoCA network without using one of the TiVos to do so, right? I gather, accordingly, that this is the answer to my earlier question as to why the MoCA adapter doesn't itself create the network: because it isn't Ethernet-connected to the router?

(I do get that that scenario does not actually require that I swap the positions of the two TiVo DVRs in my diagram, by the way.)

I think this scenario is well taken and important, and I expect to extend my diagram-drawing at some point to cover it. Yet I plead at this point that what I am trying to do at the outset is cover the basic scenarios that BigJimOutlaw covers in the original post in this thread, and Ethernet hookups of higher complexity are not among them. These simpler diagrams will be helpful to the majority of those who are considering MoCA hookups, I hope.

More later ...


----------



## epstewart

HarperVision said:


> Yes, the TiVo that's creating the moca network needs Ethernet from the router, unless your modem can provide moca, which some do.
> 
> PS - Oooops KRK beat me to it. Carry on my wayward son.......


See my earlier post, questioning whether a MoCA adapter at a non-MoCA TiVo can "create" the MoCA network, so that no TiVo has to. If so, does the adapter need to be Ethernet-connected to the router?

BTW, my Verizon FiOS router provides MoCA, and I have no MoCA adapters, so I can't answer my question experimentally ...


----------



## epstewart

abs16 said:


> I actually ordered a MoCA filter and two MoCA-compatible splitters shortly after receiving the TiVo Mini (and seeing that it didn't work). I put the new splitters in and installed the filter before the first splitter. However, after testing the Mini with no change, I took the MoCA filter out.
> 
> What really got me thinking that it might be the cable modem is that when I ran the Network Status utility on the Roamio without the Mini connected, it showed that MoCA was "Down". However, viewing Network Status when the Mini was connected showed that MoCA was "Up". It seems like even though the Roamio was acting as the MoCA bridge, there was no MoCA traffic until the Mini was connected. Between that, the behavior of the modem when the Mini was connected, and realizing that newer cable modems have the MoCA filters built in, I thought it was worth trying to block the MoCA traffic to the modem.


That was good thinking!


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> It's picking nits but I find "black" for drawing coax connections makes the most sense. (And I've evolved to orange for USB, yellow for Ethernet LAN, blue for Ethernet WAN.)
> 
> Kudos on the motivation.


Thanks. I'll take your recommended color scheme under advisement ...


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Again, kudos to you for making the effort. I had contemplated doing the same, but hadn't gotten around to it. Aside from the single diagram and deliberation over colors , I did a tiny bit of searching to see if there was some sort of web-based network diagramming tool that could be leveraged to facilitate the creation of diagrams, allowing one or more "admin-ish" users to update the available graphics with common clip art for a TiVo environment. I didn't find anything (immediately, obviously) useful in my brief search.
> 
> Short of the web-based diagramming tool, I had contemplated simply creating a thread for dumping common graphics into, to make creating diagrams somewhat easier.


A thread for common graphics: good idea! (But it would need to be curated by you experts, I'd think.)

As for tools to make diagrams: I'm just using a free drawing tool for Macs called EazyDraw. It's not specific to diagramming networks. (Did I mention that it was free?) It does support using "layers" that can be turned on and off so as to include or exclude graphic elements. That's how I have been able to make multiple diagrams for multiple scenarios without reinventing the wheel each time. And it's one reason why I have given the underlying diagram several non-overlapping (what I am thinking of as) "bays" from left to right, each bay containing a separate TiVo or, at extreme right, some combination of router, cable modem, or both.


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> Putting it on the amp means you would have to disconnect the coax that runs to Bedroom 3. That seems like a bad idea to me, because if you forget that the coax in Bedroom 3 isn't connected to anything, it would be really puzzling later to add a Mini there and not have it work. I can also imagine someone finding that later a saying "oh, that coax needs to be connected" and forgetting to move the termination to the wall port in Bedroom 3.
> 
> Terminations are to prevent reflections on coax. Adding them to the end of coax, at all wall ports that are unused, and leaving the coax in-play is the method I prefer.


A wise choice, now that I think more fully about it! BTW, can you tell that my house is an older one that lacks coax wall outlets? I have nothing but a bunch of coaxial cables, with associated splitters, running as inconspicuously as possible along baseboards and up walls and through holes drilled here and there in such a way as to (I try to convince myself) minimize the visual impact.


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> Nice work. I'd suggest adding an "unused" wall plate with a 75-ohm termination attached.
> 
> I'd also suggest showing a splitter with PoE filter attached to the input, and a 75-ohm termination on an unused output of the splitter.
> 
> And perhaps an example with a tuning adapter with PoE filter.
> 
> The example with MoCA adapter to non-MoCA-TiVo should make it clear that the TiVo connects to the "TV/STB out" port of the MoCA adapter.
> 
> Oh and there's the case where a MoCA adapter is used at the cable modem and the cable modem connects to the "TV/STB out" port of the MoCA adapter so that no PoE filter is needed.
> 
> Hmm, sounds like a lot of "feature creep" already. That's kind of a problem, because if you show all possible connections, then it remains confusing as to which ones apply to a new installation.
> 
> I also think there is a fundamental problem with helping newbies in that they hardly ever supply enough information when asking for help. This isn't really their fault, it is just inherent when trying to get a handle on unfamiliar technology. The correct answer to their original post is almost always "it depends" followed by questions to find out the specific details that they didn't know we would need in order to help them. This is further complicated by the fact that there is almost always multiple solutions, depending on which rooms have both coax+cat5e/6 and which rooms have only one or the other. Then add WiFi and Powerline and OTA, and special instructions for FiOS users that already have MoCA enabled, and special instructions for FiOS users that don't have MoCA enabled...
> 
> I personally believe that any diagrams that are simple enough for newbies to use will be too simple to cover all of the cases that newbies are likely to encounter, but maybe that is just my inner cynical old fart talking.


You are definitely on to something with the tenor of these remarks.

I was in fact trying to avoid "feature creep" in my diagrams so as to avoid overwhelming newbies. And, yes, some percentage of those newbies will find (witness this thread's length) that simple diagrams of such simple hookups are not sufficient.

My excuses are:


I just wanted at the outset to cover the basic scenarios BigJimOutlaw covers in the original post in this thread.
My own understanding of MoCA/coax/Ethernet is not yet terribly sophisticated.
I was originally going to try to cover the basics in mainly written form by revising and extending BigJimOutlaw's remarks. Then I started to realize that a picture is worth a thousand words, so I decided to make some pictures.
I am just learning how to use EazyDraw, the software I'm using, and (see my post above) wanted to keep my use of "layers" and "bays" as uncluttered as possible.
I think my next two projects ought to be (a) to diagram some of the coaxial "infrastructure" possibilities that you have mentioned, and (b) to diagram some of the relatively sophisticated ways, mentioned by krkaufman, in which Ethernet can be hooked up to abet and extend MoCA.


----------



## snerd

krkaufman said:


> Don't forget about MoCA-only, DECA-only, OTA antenna, Satellite, ...
> 
> My answer is "black" -- but I suppose I opened myself up to that question by distinguishing between Ethernet LAN & WAN.


I wasn't being facetious, I think using different coax colors to show where MoCA signal are/n't present helps to explain things like "why do I need a PoE filter with a tuning adapter".


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> A wise choice, now that I think more fully about it! BTW, can you tell that my house is an older one that lacks coax wall outlets? I have nothing but a bunch of coaxial cables, with associated splitters, running as inconspicuously as possible along baseboards and up walls and through holes drilled here and there in such a way as to (I try to convince myself) minimize the visual impact.


Sounds just like my house. I installed all the inside coax myself, a long time ago when RG59 was all the rage. Actually I do have wall outlets in two rooms that share a common wall, with a splitter buried in the wall. I got lucky with that one since MoCA works OK even on those outlets.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> You are definitely on to something with the tenor of these remarks.
> 
> I was in fact trying to avoid "feature creep" in my diagrams so as to avoid overwhelming newbies. And, yes, some percentage of those newbies will find (witness this thread's length) that simple diagrams of such simple hookups are not sufficient.
> 
> My excuses are:
> 
> 
> I just wanted at the outset to cover the basic scenarios BigJimOutlaw covers in the original post in this thread.
> My own understanding of MoCA/coax/Ethernet is not yet terribly sophisticated.
> I was originally going to try to cover the basics in mainly written form by revising and extending BigJimOutlaw's remarks. Then I started to realize that a picture is worth a thousand words, so I decided to make some pictures.
> I am just learning how to use EazyDraw, the software I'm using, and (see my post above) wanted to keep my use of "layers" and "bays" as uncluttered as possible.
> I think my next two projects ought to be (a) to diagram some of the coaxial "infrastructure" possibilities that you have mentioned, and (b) to diagram some of the relatively sophisticated ways, mentioned by krkaufman, in which Ethernet can be hooked up to abet and extend MoCA.


OK, then in that context you should probably ignore my remarks and forge ahead. A simple diagram for newbies, followed later? with an intermediate and/or advanced diagrams more more experienced MoCA enthusiasts, could be an excellent resource to put in a sticky thread.

Oh and to clarify on the "create a MoCA network" thing, yes the MoCA device that creates the network is the one that has an ethernet path that reaches back to the router. In other words, it bridges to the LAN as opposed to an adapter that effectively extends the LAN to a new switch.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> The non-MoCA TiVo still has a MoCA adapter, and my lingering area of confusion is this: why does that adapter not itself "create" the MoCA network so that the other TiVo doesn't have to? I don't get that.


THAT particular MoCA adapter, attached to a non-MoCA TiVo DVR, can't create your MoCA network for two reasons:

That room has no Ethernet connection back to one of the router's LAN ports (there's nothing available for the adapter to bridge; it'd be a bridge to nowhere); 
That MoCA adapter's Ethernet port is connected to the non-MoCA TiVo;

Bullet #1 is the real roadblock, since bullet #2 could easily be overcome by using a network switch to connect the Ethernet run, MoCA adapter and TiVo, as described in my previous post on the topic.
As with any TiVo DVR that can create a MoCA network, the key factor is whether the TiVo will be able to have an Ethernet connection to the router's LAN ports, to act as the bridge between the coax network (MoCA) and the Ethernet LAN. It's no different for using a MoCA adapter to create a MoCA network.

p.s. I really tried explaining this in the post above, here, from the paragraph starting with "However" and down. You might try giving that another read, and post whatever questions you might have.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> See my earlier post, questioning whether a MoCA adapter at a non-MoCA TiVo can "create" the MoCA network, so that no TiVo has to. *If so, does the adapter need to be Ethernet-connected to the router?*


The *first* requirement is an Ethernet connection to the home network (meaning: an available Ethernet port with a connection to the LAN side of your router). The second requirement for the MoCA-creating device is access to a coax jack connected to the coax lines on which you wish to create the MoCA network. These two requirements can be reversed, really, since *there's little point in building a bridge only connected on one side (that's called a pier).*

You can place a MoCA adapter anywhere these two requirements are met and create your MoCA network. (Well, where there's an available power outlet, as well, of course. So make that a 3rd requirement.)


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> My diagrams are somewhat "agnostic" as to the devices being in different rooms, or not, though I do show different coax wall outlets (mainly because I didn't want to get bogged down in showing all the splitters, amplifiers, filters etc. that lie behind those outlets).


It might be useful to label the rooms in the diagrams, to facilitate communication. (e.g. "Room A", "Room B", etc.)


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> OK, then in that context you should probably ignore my remarks and forge ahead. A simple diagram for newbies, followed later? with an intermediate and/or advanced diagrams more more experienced MoCA enthusiasts, could be an excellent resource to put in a sticky thread.


I do plan to keep the more advanced diagrams in mind ...



snerd said:


> Oh and to clarify on the "create a MoCA network" thing, yes the MoCA device that creates the network is the one that has an ethernet path that reaches back to the router. In other words, it bridges to the LAN as opposed to an adapter that effectively extends the LAN to a new switch.


I guess I'm getting confused in that in theory, a MoCA network can exist  and therefore can be "created"  with no connection to a LAN or router at all. In practice, given that we are setting up a MoCA network for TiVos, there does need to be a bridge ... assuming that the router itself is not MoCA-ready, as mine is.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> THAT particular MoCA adapter, attached to a non-MoCA TiVo DVR, can't create your MoCA network for two reasons:
> 
> That room has no Ethernet connection back to one of the router's LAN ports (there's nothing available for the adapter to bridge; it'd be a bridge to nowhere);
> That MoCA adapter's Ethernet port is connected to the non-MoCA TiVo;
> 
> Bullet #1 is the real roadblock, since bullet #2 could easily be overcome by using a network switch to connect the Ethernet run, MoCA adapter and TiVo, as described in my previous post on the topic.
> As with any TiVo DVR that can create a MoCA network, the key factor is whether the TiVo will be able to have an Ethernet connection to the router's LAN ports, to act as the bridge between the coax network (MoCA) and the Ethernet LAN. It's no different for using a MoCA adapter to create a MoCA network.
> 
> p.s. I really tried explaining this in the post above, here, from the paragraph starting with "However" and down. You might try giving that another read, and post whatever questions you might have.


A "bridge to nowhere"  that's a good one!

See my previous response to snerd:



> I guess I'm getting confused in that in theory, a MoCA network can exist  and therefore can be "created"  with no connection to a LAN or router at all. In practice, given that we are setting up a MoCA network for TiVos, there does need to be a bridge ... assuming that the router itself is not MoCA-ready, as mine is.


I've been getting the theoretical and the practical mixed up again, I guess! Theoretically, I still don't see why there absolutely needs to be a bridge if a MoCA network is to be "created." Practically, for us TiVo users, I do see the need, though ...


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> The *first* requirement is an Ethernet connection to the home network (meaning: an available Ethernet port with a connection to the LAN side of your router). The second requirement for the MoCA-creating device is access to a coax jack connected to the coax lines on which you wish to create the MoCA network. These two requirements can be reversed, really, since *there's little point in building a bridge only connected on one side (that's called a pier).*
> 
> You can place a MoCA adapter anywhere these two requirements are met and create your MoCA network. (Well, where there's an available power outlet, as well, of course. So make that a 3rd requirement.)


Hmmm, a pier, not a bridge. Love these analogies!


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> It might be useful to label the rooms in the diagrams, to facilitate communication. (e.g. "Room A", "Room B", etc.)


I'll put the "Room A," "Room B," etc. in right away ...


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> I wasn't being facetious, I think using different coax colors to show where MoCA signal are/n't present helps to explain things like "why do I need a PoE filter with a tuning adapter".


My concern is that embedding that level of detail into the drawing, by altering the colors of the connections, would complicate the diagrams and confuse the reader as to what media they should be using to connect two devices. (e.g. "Where do I get this black&yellow coaxial cable that's needed to carry TV & MoCA signals at the same time?")

If there's a need to communicate what's carried over each wire, I'd probably create a 2nd diagram, with highlighting underlaying the wires to indicate content.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> I've been getting the theoretical and the practical mixed up again, I guess! Theoretically, I still don't see why there absolutely needs to be a bridge if a MoCA network is to be "created." Practically, for us TiVo users, I do see the need, though ...


Right, we're not just talking theory; you're trying to create diagrams for devices that require communication across the home network and with the Internet.

Though, understanding what *can* be done can be practical, as well, for testing (see here & here) or special cases (see here).


----------



## epstewart

Continuing with the previous discussion of diagrams ...

I'm now going to upload all 8 of the diagrams I have thus far, 2 in each of 4 posts.

In this post I have the 2 sub-scenarios in which the MoCA-ready TiVo on the left in "Room A" is creating the MoCA network. It is (for the sake of simplicity) Ethernet-connected to the router in "Room D."

In the first sub-scenario, the other TiVo DVR, in "Room B," is also MoCA-ready. In the second sub-scenario, the "Room B" TiVo is not MoCA-ready and is connected to a MoCA adapter to get it on the network.

I am hoping you guys will post your relevant comments on these two diagrams and those in the three follow-up posts ...


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Later on in this discussion I can post one that shows a router such as I myself have that integrates MoCA creation and also integrates the cable modem; and *one that shows a cable modem that has built-in MoCA creation but is separate from the router*.


Pop-quiz... What might preclude the highlighted option from ever being possible?

(hint)


----------



## epstewart

In this post I have the 2 sub-scenarios in which the router in "Room D" has a MoCA adapter connected to it, and that adapter (I hope) is what "creates" the MoCA network, and none of the TiVos has to do so.

In the first sub-scenario, the "other" TiVo DVR, in "Room B," is also MoCA-ready. In the second sub-scenario, the "Room B" TiVo is not MoCA-ready and is connected to a MoCA adapter to get it on the network.


----------



## epstewart

In this post I have the 2 sub-scenarios in which the cable modem in "Room D" is MoCA-ready. This corresponds to BigJimOutlaw's Option 3 in the original post in this thread. Unless i am wrong, there is no MoCA adapter needed in "Room D" in these two sub-scenarios, and none of the TiVos needs to "create" the MoCA network.

In the first sub-scenario, the "other" TiVo DVR, in "Room B," is also MoCA-ready. In the second sub-scenario, the "Room B" TiVo is not MoCA-ready and is connected to a MoCA adapter to get it on the network.


----------



## epstewart

In this post I have the 2 sub-scenarios in which the router in "Room D" is MoCA-ready and also has an integrated cable modem. It is accordingly what BigJimOutlaw talks about in the original post under "FiOS TV Customers." 

In the first sub-scenario, the "other" TiVo DVR, in "Room B," is also MoCA-ready. In the second sub-scenario, the "Room B" TiVo is not MoCA-ready and is connected to a MoCA adapter to get it on the network.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Pop-quiz... What might preclude the highlighted option from ever being possible?
> 
> (hint)


OK, you're getting over my poor, pea-brained head here. I'm intending that option as I meant to describe it so as to correspond to Option 3 in BigJimOutlaw's original post in this thread. Maybe I didn't describe it aright, or maybe I just don't fully understand it.

BigJim's quote:



> Option 3: Use a Cable Modem with MoCA Built-In
> Platforms Supported: Bolt, Roamio Pro, Roamio Plus, Premiere XL4 (Elite), Premiere 4
> 
> Some cable companies provide cable modems with MoCA built-in, such as the Arris (Motorola) SBG6782. Some cable modems with built-in MoCA can be purchased at retail as well.
> 
> 1. In these cases, check your modem's settings to make sure MoCA is enabled. If it's not, enable it.
> 
> 2. If the modem is provided by the cable company and you are unable to enable MoCA yourself, contact them about enabling it for you.
> 
> That's it! With the MoCA option enabled, you have a MoCA network!
> 
> 3. Choose "MoCA" in the Network Settings on each Tivo box.


That's what I was going for ...

P.S. See the diagrams in post #1278 above for how I visualize it ...


----------



## epstewart

Whoa, I now see that the 8 diagrams in my recent posts above are not as high in visual quality as I intended. My apologies. I switched to exporting them from my EazyDraw software as GIF files, not JPGs. I'll have to either go back to JPGs, or find a way to enhance the detail in the GIFs, or use another format entirely ...


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> krkaufman, you also (in the main quote above) address this possibility:
> 
> 
> 
> Switch the two left DVRs, and attach that Ethernet run [from the router] to a switch in the "extreme left" room, to which you could (1) attach the MoCA adapter to create your MoCA network, (2) attach the non-MoCA DVR and (3) attach other Ethernet devices
> 
> 
> 
> Via the switch, then, the router, the non-MoCA DVR, the MoCA adapter, and possibly other Ethernet devices would be interconnected in such a way as to "create" the MoCA network without using one of the TiVos to do so, right? I gather, accordingly, that this is the answer to my earlier question as to why the MoCA adapter doesn't itself create the network: because it isn't Ethernet-connected to the router?
Click to expand...

I believe so, yes; covered in more detail in previous reply, here.



epstewart said:


> (I do get that that scenario does not actually require that I swap the positions of the two TiVo DVRs in my diagram, by the way.)


Correct; it only requires that the Ethernet run from the router extends to the room where the MoCA adapter and non-MoCA TiVo DVR are located. So, relative to this drawing, you either swap the gear or change the room to which the Ethernet run connects -- connecting the Ethernet run to a network switch, which would need to be added to the mix.

Of course, this is just theoretical. In practice, with an Ethernet run available to the non-MoCA TiVo DVR, such a setup would likely be unnecessary since the MoCA network-creating adapter could just as easily be installed at the modem/router location, without cluttering-up the entertainment cabinet. The only roadblocks to co-locating the MoCA adapter with the modem & router would be:

if the coax line coming to the modem is not physically connected to the coax lines to which your TiVo equipment is connected (e.g. #1, e.g. #2); or is effectively logically blocked-off from the TiVo coax segment by a MoCA-incompatible amplifier or splitter; or...

if there *are* no coax outlets in the room with your modem & router (because your ISP uses DSL);


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Whoa, I now see that the 8 diagrams in my recent posts above are not as high in visual quality as I intended. My apologies. I switched to exporting them from my EazyDraw software as GIF files, not JPGs. I'll have to either go back to JPGs, or find a way to enhance the detail in the GIFs, or use another format entirely ...


Actually, you may find that your originals were just fine. The TCF image upload process shrinks all images down to some maximum size.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> OK, you're getting over my poor, pea-brained head here. I'm intending that option as I meant to describe it so as to correspond to Option 3 in BigJimOutlaw's original post in this thread. Maybe I didn't describe it aright, or maybe I just don't fully understand it.
> 
> ...
> 
> P.S. See the diagrams in post #1278 above for how I visualize it ...


Yes, this drawing.

But focus on the connection between the cable modem and the router; per the diagram, there is a single Ethernet cable interconnecting the modem and the router. Does this connect to the router's WAN port or one of it's Ethernet ports? See the problem?

For your diagram to be theoretically accurate, it would need two Ethernet connections between the modem and the router, one to make the Ethernet WAN connection and the other to link the router's Ethernet LAN back over to the modem, to allow the modem to bridge the LAN over to the coax lines -- except this second "LAN" Ethernet port doesn't exist on any current modem-only device (to the best of my knowledge).

You've come across something I *thought* I'd posted about recently (but can't find at the moment): that *no such thing as a MoCA-bridging modem currently exists*, nor will one likely ever exist owing to the limited market for such a device. The need can be met by standalone MoCA adapters.

Where the confusion comes from (and I've meant to post about this, as well) is people using the terms "modem" and "gateway" (aka "modem/router combo") interchangeably, as though there's no difference.

Consider:
*Modem: *A modem provides the single function of translating a WAN communication technology to an Ethernet signal, made available via an RJ45 port on the modem; a modem will typically have a single RJ45 port for the WAN connection and a single port associated with whatever WAN technology is supported (coax jack, phone jack).

*Router:* A router typically provides a protected connection between an Ethernet WAN (Wide Area Network) port and a LAN (Local Area Network), aka "home network," along with many essential services to facilitate the networking of devices connected to the LAN. Modern routers provide both Ethernet and Wireless LAN connections via an embedded Ethernet switch and wireless access point, respectively. A router will typically only have RJ45 ports, one for the WAN connection and several for Ethernet LAN connections. (Some routers also include USB ports to support sharing of USB devices such as printers and hard drives.)

*Gateway (aka modem/router combo):* A gateway can support all of the above functions, *plus* additional features *only* available to such a combo device, such as MoCA bridging. For example, a cable gateway (as opposed to DSL gateway device) would have access to both the coax lines *and* the protected Ethernet LAN ports, and so could bridge traffic between these two segments, if the vendor chose to implement the feature (as some have); there's no physical roadblock.​
Hope this helps...


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> ... it only requires that the Ethernet run from the router extends to the room where the MoCA adapter and non-MoCA TiVo DVR are located. ...


Just to be clear: the quote above applies only if I am trying to show how the MoCA network can be "created from Room B," so to speak, without telling any of the TiVos to "create a MoCA network," right? But if the TiVo in "Room A" is being told to "create a MoCA network," then I need to show an Ethernet connection running from that TiVo (directly or indirectly) to the router in "Room D" ...


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Just to be clear: the quote above applies only if I am trying to show how the MoCA network can be "created from Room B," so to speak, without telling any of the TiVos to "create a MoCA network," right? But if the TiVo in "Room A" is being told to "create a MoCA network," then I need to show an Ethernet connection running from that TiVo (directly or indirectly) to the router in "Room D" ...


You only need a single Ethernet run from the router to the room in which you're trying to create the MoCA network, whether it's with the MoCA-capable TiVo in Room A or using the MoCA adapter in Room B.

(That is, obviously, assuming we're talking about the early diagrams with separate modem and router, and no MoCA adapter co-located with the modem & router creating the MoCA network in that room.)


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> You've come across something I *thought* I'd posted about recently (but can't find at the moment): that *no such thing as a MoCA-bridging modem currently exists*, nor will one likely ever exist owing to the limited market for such a device. The need can be met by standalone MoCA adapters.
> 
> Where the confusion comes from (and I've meant to post about this, as well) is people using the terms "modem" and "gateway" interchangeably, as though there's no difference.
> 
> Consider:
> *Modem: *A modem provides the single function of translating a WAN communication technology to an Ethernet signal, made available via an RJ45 port on the modem; a modem will typically have a single RJ45 port for the WAN connection and a single port associated with whatever WAN technology is supported (coax jack, phone jack).
> 
> *Router:* A router typically provides a protected connection between an Ethernet WAN port and an Ethernet LAN, along with many essential services to facilitate the networking of devices connected to the LAN ports. Modern routers provide both Ethernet and Wireless LAN connections via an embedded Ethernet switch and wireless access point, respectively. A router will typically only have RJ45 ports, one for the WAN connection and several for Ethernet LAN connections. (Some routers also include USB ports to support sharing of USB devices such as printers and hard drives.)
> 
> *Gateway (aka modem/router combo):* A gateway can support all of the above functions, *plus* additional features *only* available to such a combo device, such as MoCA bridging. For example, a cable gateway (as opposed to DSL gateway device) would have access to both the coax lines *and* the protected Ethernet LAN ports, and so could bridge traffic between these two segments, if the vendor chose to implement the feature (as some have); there's no physical roadblock.​
> Hope this helps...


Yes. I'm beginning to see the problem. I was hoping to illustrate what BigJimOutlaw discussed in the original post:



> Option 3: Use a Cable Modem with MoCA Built-In
> Platforms Supported: Bolt, Roamio Pro, Roamio Plus, Premiere XL4 (Elite), Premiere 4
> 
> Some cable companies provide cable modems with MoCA built-in, such as the Arris (Motorola) SBG6782. Some cable modems with built-in MoCA can be purchased at retail as well.
> 
> 1. In these cases, check your modem's settings to make sure MoCA is enabled. If it's not, enable it.
> 
> 2. If the modem is provided by the cable company and you are unable to enable MoCA yourself, contact them about enabling it for you.
> 
> That's it! With the MoCA option enabled, you have a MoCA network!
> 
> 3. Choose "MoCA" in the Network Settings on each Tivo box.


That "Arris (Motorola) SBG6782" is listed at Amazon as:



> ARRIS SURFboard SBG6782AC DOCSIS 3.0 Cable Modem/ Wi-Fi AC1750 Router


I admit I don't now see how this Option 3 of BigJim's differs from my own situation, in which my Verizon FiOS "router" has an integrated cable modem. BigJim has a separate section, though, for "FiOS TV Customers." My mind is getting overtaxed, so maybe you can draw the distinction for me.

Still and all, I do see that the diagram of mine that you referred to is ambiguous between how LAN ports and WAN ports interconnect between the router and the modem, and that few if amy modems exist that could support what I was trying to illustrate ... So maybe I need to dispense with that diagram entirely and its mate that shows two MoCA-ready TiVos?

P.S. Since I don't have a cable modem at all, I don't really know how many Ethernet ports one has, and of what types ...


----------



## krkaufman

The above post related to the ambiguity of the modem-router Ethernet connection forced me to think a bit more about the diagrams, beyond obsessing over standardized colors for the connections.

Having now considered the diagrams a bit more, here's the issues I see (putting aside their value):

*Combinatorial math:* Creating high-level diagrams for multiple rooms, such as you've created, results in an exploding number of required diagrams to describe even the most common whole-home possibilities. (consider combinations of provider and special provider-required equipment, such as tuning adapters, different ISP & TV service provider, individual device capabilities, etc.)

*Beelzebub:* As they say, the devil is in the details. It's the specifics in how to interconnect a DVR, tuning adapter and MoCA adapter, as an example, that is most critical. Knowing where to put the splitters, MoCA filters, amps, terminators, etc. are the things people need the most help with, it seems.
It may be best to provide detailed diagrams focusing on specific device connection scenarios, rather than whole-home overviews, hopefully in such a way as to allow someone to leverage them as puzzle pieces to match their particular whole-home needs.

Also, the TiVo Custom Installers page, here, provides some good examples, along with deemphasizing specific TiVo DVR models. Look for the following bullets part-way down the web page, and click on any one of them to see the associated diagrams:
+ Create MoCA network with DVR.
+ Create MoCA network with adapter.
+ Create Ethernet network.​


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Yes. I'm beginning to see the problem. I was hoping to illustrate what BigJimOutlaw discussed in the original post:


Yes, BigJim's post refers to the device as a "modem," when it is actually a "modem/router combo" (aka "gateway") device.



> That "Arris (Motorola) SBG6782" is listed at Amazon as:
> _ARRIS SURFboard SBG6782AC DOCSIS 3.0 Cable Modem/ Wi-Fi AC1750 Router_​


Note the "G" stuck in the middle of the model name. The Arris modem-only model numbers are typically "SB####" -- but the inserted "G" is the indicator that it's a combo gateway device. (Along with the "modem/router" in the Amazon product title.)



> I admit I don't now see how this Option 3 of BigJim's differs from my own situation, in which my Verizon FiOS "router" has an integrated cable modem. BigJim has a separate section, though, for "FiOS TV Customers."


There isn't much difference. The separate section is likely because the FiOS exception has been there for a while, but he just recently added the "Option 3" section. It *would* probably be best to fold the FiOS information into Option 3, at some point.



> Still and all, I do see that the diagram of mine that you referred to is ambiguous between how LAN ports and WAN ports interconnect between the router and the modem, and that few if any modems exist that could support what I was trying to illustrate ... So maybe I need to dispense with that diagram entirely and its mate that shows two MoCA-ready TiVos?


Yes, the two diagrams in post #1278 can be shelved.



> P.S. Since I don't have a cable modem at all, I don't really know how many Ethernet ports one has, and of what types


Understood; that's why I took the time to try explaining the difference between the devices.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Yes, BigJim's post refers to the device as a "modem," when it is actually a "modem/router combo" (aka "gateway") device.


I'll plan to alter the label on my diagrams that now says "MoCA-Integrated Router/Modem" to say "MoCA-Integrated Router/Modem a.k.a. Gateway." Or should that be "MoCA-Integrated Router/Modem a.k.a. MoCA-Integrated Gateway, which becomes a bit clumsy?



krkaufman said:


> Note the "G" stuck in the middle of the model name. The Arris modem-only model numbers are typically "SB####" -- but the inserted "G" is the indicator that it's a combo gateway device. (Along with the "modem/router" in the Amazon product title.)


I see that.



krkaufman said:


> There isn't much difference. The separate section [in the original post] is likely because the FiOS exception has been there for a while, but he just recently added the "Option 3" section. It *would* probably be best to fold the FiOS information into Option 3, at some point.


I agree.



krkaufman said:


> Yes, the two diagrams in post #1278 can be shelved.


Consider them shelved!


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Having now considered the diagrams a bit more, here's the issues I see (putting aside their value):
> 
> *Combinatorial math:* Creating high-level diagrams for multiple rooms, such as you've created, results in an exploding number of required diagrams to describe even the most common whole-home possibilities. (consider combinations of provider and special provider-required equipment, such as tuning adapters, different ISP & TV service provider, individual device capabilities, etc.)
> 
> *Beelzebub:* As they say, the devil is in the details. It's the specifics in how to interconnect a DVR, tuning adapter and MoCA adapter, as an example, that is most critical. Knowing where to put the splitters, MoCA filters, amps, terminators, etc. are the things people need the most help with, it seems.
> It may be best to provide detailed diagrams focusing on specific device connection scenarios, rather than whole-home overviews, hopefully in such a way as to allow someone to leverage them as puzzle pieces to match their particular whole-home needs.
> 
> Also, the TiVo Custom Installers page, here, provides some good examples, along with deemphasizing specific TiVo DVR models. Look for the following bullets part-way down the web page, and click on any one of them to see the associated diagrams:
> + Create MoCA network with DVR.
> + Create MoCA network with adapter.
> + Create Ethernet network.​


Valuable points. I do want to combine my current diagrams giving a whole-house overview with diagrams like those on the web page you link to. BigJimOutlaw includes some which-ports-go-to-which-other-ports-by-what-type-of-cables diagrams of that sort in his original post, and I have seen some of the same sort elsewhere. In fact, I included some in the text I have already tried to write expanding on BigJim. (Hard to do, since he's so "big," ha ha.) Those diagrams are indeed vital.

Also vital will be diagrams having to do with the coaxial "infrastructure," with its cables, splitters, filters, amplifiers etc., and also with all the "extra" Ethernet connections that my diagrams don't show (at least, not yet). A lot of MoCA newbies will be intrigued by how easy it is to "extend" MoCA from a TiVo to other entertainment devices that support Ethernet. And many others will be starting with an elaborate Ethernet hookup in their homes and want to find out how to integrate MoCA with it, rather than Ethernet with MoCA.

(As you have said, omitting either of those two perspectives would imply imagining a "pier" rather than a "bridge," but most of us come at this subject from what we already know, rather than a lofty theoretical vantage.)

I'm beginning to realize that that lofty and theoretical stuff, once mastered, can serve to reduce the subject matter of this thread to a much more compact and easily summarized form. But it does take a while to master it ...


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> I'll plan to alter the label on my diagrams that now says "MoCA-Integrated Router/Modem" to say "MoCA-Integrated Router/Modem a.k.a. Gateway." Or should that be "MoCA-Integrated Router/Modem a.k.a. MoCA-Integrated Gateway, which becomes a bit clumsy?


Or even "MoCA-integrated Gateway (i.e. cable modem/wireless router combo)"

(getting back to that combinatorial math... good luck!)


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Or even "MoCA-integrated Gateway (i.e. cable modem/wireless router combo)"
> 
> (getting back to that combinatorial math... good luck!)


For now, I'm just going with:



> MoCA-Integrated Router/Modem, a.k.a "Gateway"


I'm hoping the viewer will understand that "MoCA-Integrated" applies to both "Router/Modem" and "Gateway." Besides, I have never anticipated that these diagrams would be used without some explanatory text.


----------



## epstewart

I'm now going to post for further comments, over the course of the this and the next two posts, my current "overview" diagrams for MoCA hookups. In this post are the two diagrams that cover the wiring for a MoCA-ready TiVo connected via Ethernet cable to a router.

The first shows two MoCA-ready TiVos, the one on the left being used to create the MoCA network. The second replaces the second TiVo with one that is not MoCA-ready.

I know these do not cover the possibility of having a more complex Ethernet hookup than just a single cable from TiVo to router. I want to deal with that added complexity in later diagrams. I also will be working on diagrams that actually identify which ports on the TiVo and the router to connect the Ethernet cables to. All in good time!


----------



## epstewart

Here are the diagrams covering using a MoCA adapter at the router to create the MoCA network. Again, the first shows two MoCA-ready TiVos and the second shows the second TiVo as not MoCA-ready and using a MoCA adapter.


----------



## epstewart

Here are the diagrams covering using a gateway or router/modem combo to create the MoCA network. Again, the first shows two MoCA-ready TiVos and the second shows the second TiVo as not MoCA-ready and using a MoCA adapter.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Here are the diagrams covering using a gateway or router/modem combo to create the MoCA network. Again, the first shows two MoCA-ready TiVos and the second shows the second TiVo as not MoCA-ready and using a MoCA adapter.


The second image would seem to suffice, given it shows both possible "join" configurations (MoCA and non-MoCA DVRs).

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=24469&d=1449004556


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> The second image would seem to suffice, given it shows both possible "join" configurations (MoCA and non-MoCA DVRs).
> 
> http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=24469&d=1449004556


I'm thinking I ought to enhance my diagrams to highlight, in each case, which device creates the MoCA network, either automatically or manually (in the case of a TiVo), and which devices merely join the network.

So I see now that I can definitely drop the first diagram of the last pair I posted, as you astutely pointed out. I also think I can, for the same reason, drop the first diagram of the second pair, the two diagrams that show a MoCA adapter connected to the router. Again, it's not necessary to show two MoCA-ready TiVos, both of which are simply joining the network that is created by the MoCA adapter associated with the router. But check me on this ... Am I missing something?


----------



## epstewart

Attached is the first pair in my latest set of whole-house overview diagrams, in which I have added highlighting of the various TiVo units to indicate whether they:


Create a MoCA network
Connect using MoCA
Connect using Ethernet
This pair shows in "Room A" a MoCA-ready TiVo that connects to a router in "Room D" by means of an Ethernet cable. That TiVo is shown as creating a MoCA network.

The first diagram in this pair shows a second MoCA-ready TiVo in "Room B." It is shown as connecting using MoCA.

The second diagram in this pair shows a non-MoCA-ready TiVo in "Room B" that uses a MoCA adapter and connects using Ethernet.

I am posting these diagrams in order to get yet more input from those who are more expert than I am in these matters. Please let me know what changes ought to be made before the diagrams can be considered "official."


----------



## epstewart

Attached is the second pair in my latest set of whole-house overview diagrams, in which I have added highlighting of the various TiVo units to indicate whether they:


Create a MoCA network
Connect using MoCA
Connect using Ethernet
This pair shows in "Room D" a cable modem and also a router. But this time, the router is connected to a MoCA adapter via Ethernet, and the MoCA adapter connects to the cable modem via coax.

In "Room A" is a MoCA-ready TiVo that connects using MoCA, and there is no longer an Ethernet connection from that TiVo to the router.

The first diagram in this pair shows a second MoCA-ready TiVo in "Room B." It is shown as connecting using MoCA.

The second diagram in this pair shows a non-MoCA-ready TiVo in "Room B" that uses a MoCA adapter and connects using Ethernet.

I am posting these diagrams in order to get yet more input from those who are more expert than I am in these matters. Please let me know what changes ought to be made before the diagrams can be considered "official."


----------



## epstewart

Attached is the third pair in my latest set of whole-house overview diagrams, in which I have added highlighting of the various TiVo units to indicate whether they:


Create a MoCA network
Connect using MoCA
Connect using Ethernet
This pair shows in "Room D" a MoCA-integrated gateway or router/modem combo, rather than a router and separate cable modem.

In "Room A" is a MoCA-ready TiVo that connects using MoCA, and there is no Ethernet connection from that TiVo to the router.

The first diagram in this pair shows a second MoCA-ready TiVo in "Room B." It is shown as connecting using MoCA.

The second diagram in this pair shows a non-MoCA-ready TiVo in "Room B" that uses a MoCA adapter and connects using Ethernet.

I am posting these diagrams in order to get yet more input from those who are more expert than I am in these matters. Please let me know what changes ought to be made before the diagrams can be considered "official."

P.S. to krkaufman: I know we agreed before that the first of these two diagrams could be eliminated, but now that I have highlighted the TiVos to indicate their means of connecting to the network, I thought it might be helpful to newbies to compare and contrast the two. What do you think?


----------



## epstewart

I am developing a blog whose posts hopefully embody some of the wisdom I have learned in this thread:

The Whole-TiVo Home

I'd like to ask some of you more experienced MoCA gurus to look it over and tell me in this thread about any corrections, suggestions, ideas, complaints, etc. that you might have. My idea here is to make it as easy as possible for MoCA newbies to get on board, not necessarily to address the finer points. I plan to add more posts as time goes on, so any ideas you have for those will be very welcome. Thanks.

P.S. Note that in a Blogger blog, newer posts appear before older ones, unfortunately.


----------



## krkaufman

FYI... Thread seeking MoCA help, here: http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=534864 (5016)


----------



## krkaufman

FYI... Thread seeking combo-MoCA/OTA/cable Internet help, here: http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=535098 (bergerl)


----------



## dscl

Looking to setup a MoCA network for my Bolt and mini and want to make sure I'm going to do it right.

Here is my setup as of today:

Bedroom- Bolt connected over wifi (No ethernet jack in the room)
Living room- Mini(Still not purchased) No ethernet jack in the room
Office- Coax entry into the house with a SB6121 and router

Option #1

Connect a POE adapter in the office and bedroom and have the Bolt act as the MoCA bridge for the Mini in the living room.

Option #2

Connect a MoCA adapter in the office and have the modem and router connected to it and have the Bolt and mini on MoCA over the coax in the bedroom and living room.

Questions I have....



1. Would POE give me the speed I need to push to one Mini?
2. in option #2, would this work? What I mean is :

Coax into the house--->MoCA adapter--->Cable modem--->Router

Would this give me MoCA at every coax drop in the house?

One other thing, I "think" that the SB6121 has MoCA filtering built in so I would not need a MoCA filter, but if any knows this to be true please let me know.

Thanks.


----------



## epstewart

dscl said:


> Looking to setup a MoCA network for my Bolt and mini and want to make sure I'm going to do it right.
> 
> Here is my setup as of today:
> 
> Bedroom- Bolt connected over wifi (No ethernet jack in the room)
> Living room- Mini(Still not purchased) No ethernet jack in the room
> Office- Coax entry into the house with a SB6121 and router
> 
> Option #1
> 
> Connect a POE adapter in the office and bedroom and have the Bolt act as the MoCA bridge for the Mini in the living room.
> 
> Option #2
> 
> Connect a MoCA adapter in the office and have the modem and router connected to it and have the Bolt and mini on MoCA over the coax in the bedroom and living room.
> 
> Questions I have....
> 
> 1. Would POE give me the speed I need to push to one Mini?
> 2. in option #2, would this work? What I mean is :
> 
> Coax into the house--->MoCA adapter--->Cable modem--->Router
> 
> Would this give me MoCA at every coax drop in the house?
> 
> One other thing, I "think" that the SB6121 has MoCA filtering built in so I would not need a MoCA filter, but if any knows this to be true please let me know.
> 
> Thanks.


I will quickly defer to others of more experience, but just for now:

If you need a POE filter at all (not to be confused w/ a MoCA adapter) it would likely just be one filter in your setup. It could be put in the coax line coming into your house, or just before the modem itself if no other coax outlets in your house will ever utilize MoCA.

I don't know whether your modem already contains such a filter or not. I would not even worry about obtaining such a filter until after you see if you can get your MoCA network going without one. If it works to your satisfaction, as it very likely will, then you may decide to forego the filter -- which is not very expensive, anyway.

Or, you may want to use the filter now to keep your home's MoCA traffic isolated from snooping from outside your home. That would also help insure that your MoCA signal remains strong in the future if you expand your MoCA network.

As for your Option #1, which does not utilize a MoCA adapter: The Bolt won't feed the Mini over MoCA unless the Bolt itself first "creates a MoCA network." To be able to do that, it must be set up to bridge MoCA via an Ethernet connection to your router. That is, you would typically have to run a Bolt-to-router Ethernet cable. There are other, more elaborate possibilities for this, but the typical arrangement would be a Bolt-to-router Ethernet cable.

Option #2 is probably the better choice. You would run the coax input in your office to the MoCA adapter, and then connect a short coax cable from the adapter to your modem. You would also run a short Ethernet cable from the Ethernet port on the adapter to a LAN port on the router, and another Ethernet cable (which probably is already in place) from the router's WAN port to the modem.

The MoCA adapter in your office would automatically "create" the MoCA network. The Bolt and the Mini would simply "Connect using MoCA" -- i.e., they would simply "join" the network.

That would potentially give you MoCA at every coax drop in your house.

You haven't mentioned how many drops you have. These are all typically created by coaxial splitters, of course. Any POE filtering you do would typically be inserted before the root splitter in your network. However, in Option #2 you might just as well put it at the cable modem, as long as the other coax drops are not to be used for MoCA. But if they are, or will be, used for MoCA, any filter you get ought to go before the first splitter.

Ideally, all your splitters should pass at least 1650 MHz. But if they don't, MoCA can often work with less bandwidth.

Best of luck!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

dscl said:


> Looking to setup a MoCA network for my Bolt and mini and want to make sure I'm going to do it right.
> 
> Here is my setup as of today:
> 
> Bedroom- Bolt connected over wifi (No ethernet jack in the room)
> Living room- Mini(Still not purchased) No ethernet jack in the room
> Office- Coax entry into the house with a SB6121 and router
> 
> Option #1
> 
> Connect a POE adapter in the office and bedroom and have the Bolt act as the MoCA bridge for the Mini in the living room.
> 
> Option #2
> 
> Connect a MoCA adapter in the office and have the modem and router connected to it and have the Bolt and mini on MoCA over the coax in the bedroom and living room.
> 
> Questions I have....
> 
> 1. Would POE give me the speed I need to push to one Mini?
> 2. in option #2, would this work? What I mean is :
> 
> Coax into the house--->MoCA adapter--->Cable modem--->Router
> 
> Would this give me MoCA at every coax drop in the house?
> 
> One other thing, I "think" that the SB6121 has MoCA filtering built in so I would not need a MoCA filter, but if any knows this to be true please let me know.
> 
> Thanks.


Option 1 won't work unless the Bolt is connected by ethernet to the router.

Option 2 is what you want. A moca adapter connected to the modem and router will light up the house with moca, and then the Bolt and Mini can both communicate over the coax. Super easy.

A POE filter is just a filter your install on the input side of your home's main splitter to keep the moca signal inside your home. It's not an adapter and serves no other function. This is recommended as well.

*If* your internet has connection issues after creating a moca network, a second POE filter installed on the back of the modem could help fix it. It's unlikely, but if it happens that's how to fix it.


----------



## dscl

Thanks for the replies but I used the wrong abbreviation when I used POE, what I meant was a power line adapter.

Like this: http://www.tp-link.com/en/products/details/cat-5034_TL-PA4010KIT.html

So I would use the adapter to get Ethernet to the bolt then setup the bolt to be a MoCA bridge.


----------



## mdavej

You don't need power line at all. Moca takes care of that already and does it far better.


----------



## krkaufman

dscl said:


> Bedroom- Bolt connected over wifi (No ethernet jack in the room)
> Living room- Mini(Still not purchased) No ethernet jack in the room
> Office- Coax entry into the house with a SB6121 and router
> 
> *Option #1* : Connect a (Powerline) adapter in the office and bedroom and have the Bolt act as the MoCA bridge for the Mini in the living room.
> 
> *Option #2* : Connect a MoCA adapter in the office and have the modem and router connected to it and have the Bolt and mini on MoCA over the coax in the bedroom and living room.


Understood. And I'm guessing we're assuming coaxial connectivity to all the rooms. (And are leaving discussion of coax component compatibility until later.)

Either solution *could* work for you, but the Powerline solution won't be as reliable, or as consistently fast, from my experience. YMMV, as Powerline throughput is widely variable based on power lines in a given house. The only reason I'd opt for Powerline is if the Powerline adapter were already in-hand... but I'd immediately begin putting pennies aside to upgrade to MoCA at the earliest possible opportunity.

I normally would give a flat no to Powerline in a situation like yours where coax is available at all locations, but here's why I'm willing to bend a little ... 

I'm assuming you may already own the needed Powerline adapters.

You're committing to doing MoCA for all networking between the BOLT and Mini, at a minimum, such that the heavy lifting -- the TiVO Multi-Room Streaming (MRS) traffic -- between the BOLT and Mini will be over the fast, reliable wired MoCA connection, leaving just the TiVo service updates, etc. and Internet streaming to run across that Powerline connection. Your Powerline connection quality doesn't need to be anywhere near as good as someone who might be trying to use Powerline as their only network connection for a Mini or BOLT, where it would have to pass MRS-level traffic.

You don't have a 4K TV so your BOLT won't need to stream 4K content across that Powerline network connection.
If any of the above three bullets don't apply, then I withdraw my flexibility and must throw my full support behind a MoCA-only solution from the get-go.

More detail to follow.


----------



## krkaufman

Random thoughts...

You haven't mentioned your cable TV/Internet provider. Who ya using? What kinda Internet speeds are you getting? And do you know if they require a tuning adapter to support Switched Digital Video (SDV)?

Your cable modem (Motorola/Arris SB6121) *does* have a built-in MoCA filter, so it's MoCA-friendly; no worries there. But note that this has no bearing on the need to have a MoCA filter installed at your cable point-of-entry (PoE) into your home. The filter built into the modem just protects it from MoCA signal interference; the "PoE" MoCA filter is needed to secure and strengthen your MoCA signal by keeping it inside your home.

See the following post for more information on the "why?" and "how?" related to the MoCA filter needed at your cable "PoE": PoE MoCA filter background

Like with wireless adapters that some people use, a Powerline adapter will trick a BOLT into believing it has a standard Ethernet connection back to the router, allowing it to act as a MoCA bridge in OPTION 1; however, this setup is not considered an "Ethernet" connection within the context of TiVo support. (The risk and support is all yours.)

Going with OPTION 2, where you'd be using a MoCA adapter in the Office to establish the MoCA network, you will be able to connect the BOLT to that MoCA network, of course, but you will also be able to attach an additional Ethernet device or even an Ethernet switch to the otherwise-unused Ethernet port on the BOLT to provide wired Ethernet connectivity to other Ethernet-capable devices co-located with the BOLT. Sadly, the Mini lacks MoCA bridging and so can't provide this added benefit at its location.

Assuming OPTION 2, depending on your needs and budget, given the BOLT's specs, you may want to consider a standard MoCA 2.0 adapter as your MoCA-creating device. Going MoCA 2.0 may also be especially handy if you're looking to extend networking via coax to some critical processing centers within the house. See here for more info on MoCA adapter selection and MoCA 2.0 options.

I'm a little bit surprised by the BOLT being planned for the Bedroom; normally the DVR would be located where you do the most TV viewing, owing to a better channel surfing experience.

Your splitters need to be rated 5-1000+MHz or better, minimum; but you'll want to document the frequency ratings of all your splitters and get them all upgraded to a MoCA-compatible frequency range of 5-1675MHz or better.

Make note of any amplifiers on your coax lines and report back with brand & model number. (Older amps are often MoCA-hostile.)

Not sure any guarantees can be made for all the drops in the house. We'd need to hear more in terms of how all your rooms are currently connected, to where, through what devices, etc. A description would be good, a text diagram better, a drawing best. (see attached for examples)


----------



## krkaufman

Quick note... Putting aside my desire to discuss the Powerline bridge possibility because it allowed me to emphasize the needs of MRS versus Internet streaming, I really want to emphasize that *you should go all MoCA*, as soon as possible, if not immediately -- with MoCA 2.0 as an optional bonus upgrade on top of the MoCA upgrade.

p.s. For light reading, you might peruse this past, withering-on-the-vine post, here, describing a situation very similar to yours, where the OP was in need of a way to bridge an isolated MoCA segment to their Internet gear in the office. A key difference between their situation and yours was that they, seemingly, didn't have a coaxial or Ethernet connection available between their office and either TiVo device location. You have the luxury of a coaxial connection and so should leap at the MoCA bridge option.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Quick note... Putting aside my desire to discuss the Powerline bridge possibility because it allowed me to emphasize the needs of MRS versus Internet streaming, I really want to emphasize that *you should go all MoCA*, as soon as possible, if not immediately -- with MoCA 2.0 as an optional bonus upgrade on top of the MoCA upgrade.
> ...


I want to echo that. All-MoCA reduces the likelihood of intermittent problems with power line interference, for one thing.

As much of this long thread implies, even an all-MoCA setup can sometimes be hard enough to get working. Often, the problems have to do with the coaxial infrastructure in the home not being up to snuff. That's one reason why you really should stand ready to install a POE filter, if things don't cooperate right out of the box. Note that these filters can do more than one good thing for a MoCA network.

krkaufman's suggestion that you diagram everything and know what you have in your entire network is extremely well taken.

Also, some people have found that putting coaxial terminators on any open coax outlets or splitter feeds can reduce potential problems.

Back to the question of a MoCA network adapter: It may be pricey, but not prohibitively so. You might want to make sure the MoCA adapter you do get (if you get one) is rated for MoCA 2.0 --- as is the Bolt, but not the current Mini --- under the assumption that these are not the last TiVo devices you will ever buy, and you may want to be ready for higher in-home streaming speeds. A "bonded" MoCA 2.0 adapter would be even more future-proof, as it can double the stated speed of "basic" MoCA 2.0.


----------



## dscl

krkaufman said:


> Random thoughts...
> 
> You haven't mentioned your cable TV/Internet provider. Who ya using? What kinda Internet speeds are you getting? And do you know if they require a tuning adapter to support Switched Digital Video (SDV)?
> 
> Your cable modem (Motorola/Arris SB6121) *does* have a built-in MoCA filter, so it's MoCA-friendly; no worries there. But note that this has no bearing on the need to have a MoCA filter installed at your cable point-of-entry (PoE) into your home. The filter built into the modem just protects it from MoCA signal interference; the "PoE" MoCA filter is needed to secure and strengthen your MoCA signal by keeping it inside your home.
> 
> See the following post for more information on the "why?" and "how?" related to the MoCA filter needed at your cable "PoE": PoE MoCA filter background
> 
> Like with wireless adapters that some people use, a Powerline adapter will trick a BOLT into believing it has a standard Ethernet connection back to the router, allowing it to act as a MoCA bridge in OPTION 1; however, this setup is not considered an "Ethernet" connection within the context of TiVo support. (The risk and support is all yours.)
> 
> Going with OPTION 2, where you'd be using a MoCA adapter in the Office to establish the MoCA network, you will be able to connect the BOLT to that MoCA network, of course, but you will also be able to attach an additional Ethernet device or even an Ethernet switch to the otherwise-unused Ethernet port on the BOLT to provide wired Ethernet connectivity to other Ethernet-capable devices co-located with the BOLT. Sadly, the Mini lacks MoCA bridging and so can't provide this added benefit at its location.
> 
> Assuming OPTION 2, depending on your needs and budget, given the BOLT's specs, you may want to consider a standard MoCA 2.0 adapter as your MoCA-creating device. Going MoCA 2.0 may also be especially handy if you're looking to extend networking via coax to some critical processing centers within the house. See here for more info on MoCA adapter selection and MoCA 2.0 options.
> 
> I'm a little bit surprised by the BOLT being planned for the Bedroom; normally the DVR would be located where you do the most TV viewing, owing to a better channel surfing experience.
> 
> Your splitters need to be rated 5-1000+MHz or better, minimum; but you'll want to document the frequency ratings of all your splitters and get them all upgraded to a MoCA-compatible frequency range of 5-1675MHz or better.
> 
> Make note of any amplifiers on your coax lines and report back with brand & model number. (Older amps are often MoCA-hostile.)
> 
> Not sure any guarantees can be made for all the drops in the house. We'd need to hear more in terms of how all your rooms are currently connected, to where, through what devices, etc. A description would be good, a text diagram better, a drawing best. (see attached for examples)


Hey krkaufman- Thanks for the time and help you are giving me!

I'm on Charter, getting 60MG down, I am on SDV and have a TA connected and running.

I don't have the power line adapters yet and I was just looking at my options since I was not sure if option #2 would give me MoCA at every drop in the house, but seeing that it will and the price of the MoCA and power line adapters are not that much off, option #1 is a no go for me.

I have one spilt in the house in the bedroom that I put in to split the line for the TA and Bolt.

I don't know the brand of the splitter but it was given to me by Charter and it's 1Ghz.

Don't have access to scanner so best I can do for my setup is write it out.

Coax come into the house at the office:

1. Coax is plugged into the modem
2. Modem is plugged into a wireless router and on the router I have a ooma phone adapter and two computers plugged into it's ethernet ports in the back.

Living Room:

1. One Coax drop that (today) is plugged into Charter cablebox
2. Box is connected to TV by HDMI
3. Also have a FireTV and a sound bar connected.

Bedroom:

1. One Coax drop split with one connection going to the TA and the other going to the Bolt.

Thanks Again!


----------



## dscl

epstewart said:


> I want to echo that. All-MoCA reduces the likelihood of intermittent problems with power line interference, for one thing.
> 
> As much of this long thread implies, even an all-MoCA setup can sometimes be hard enough to get working. Often, the problems have to do with the coaxial infrastructure in the home not being up to snuff. That's one reason why you really should stand ready to install a POE filter, if things don't cooperate right out of the box. Note that these filters can do more than one good thing for a MoCA network.
> 
> krkaufman's suggestion that you diagram everything and know what you have in your entire network is extremely well taken.
> 
> Also, some people have found that putting coaxial terminators on any open coax outlets or splitter feeds can reduce potential problems.
> 
> Back to the question of a MoCA network adapter: It may be pricey, but not prohibitively so. You might want to make sure the MoCA adapter you do get (if you get one) is rated for MoCA 2.0 --- as is the Bolt, but not the current Mini --- under the assumption that these are not the last TiVo devices you will ever buy, and you may want to be ready for higher in-home streaming speeds. A "bonded" MoCA 2.0 adapter would be even more future-proof, as it can double the stated speed of "basic" MoCA 2.0.


I'm thinking of just getting the MoCA adapter from Tivo's site, are they 2.0?


----------



## krkaufman

dscl said:


> I'm thinking of just getting the MoCA adapter from Tivo's site, are they 2.0?


No, the adapters on TiVo's site are MoCA 1.1 -- unless they've finally gotten around to releasing the new "TiVO Bridge" adapter. (see here)

edit: p.s. TiVo's site has been among the cheapest routes to pickup a MoCA 1.1 adapter. That's one reason I've been hoping they'd finally get around to releasing the TiVo BRIDGE.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> A "bonded" MoCA 2.0 adapter would be even more future-proof, as it can double the stated speed of "basic" MoCA 2.0.


Factually true, but keep in mind that the BOLT is just standard MoCA 2.0, not bonded/extended 2.0. The announced but not released "TiVo Bridge" MoCA 2.0 adapter is also just standard MoCA 2.0 -- made obvious, specs aside, by it's simply being the Actiontec ECB6000 repackaged in a white housing with "TiVo BRIDGE" printed on it. (see here)

I guess what I'm saying is, bonded/extended MoCA 2.0 *is* something to consider for your main MoCA bridge, especially if you're looking to establish a networking backbone to extend networking throughout your home, but it's unclear if TiVo will be bringing any bonded/extended devices to the market in the near-term. That said, considering that the Roamio Pro & Plus models made the jump to Gigabit Ethernet while the basic model stuck with Fast Ethernet, it *is* possible TiVo could bump the BOLT Pro's MoCA bridge to the 800+Mbps bonded/extended MoCA 2.0 chip.

*DISCLAIMER:* All of the above is theoretical coming off my fingertips, as I haven't personally tested any of these MoCA 2.0 adapters.


----------



## krkaufman

dscl said:


> I'm on Charter, getting 60MG down


This means MoCA 2.0 won't net any benefits relative to Internet downloads/uploads, so it then becomes strictly a matter of what transfer rates you'd want to see between the BOLT and your router and connected PCs.

On that front, *what brand/model is your router?* If it's LAN ports aren't Gigabit, a MoCA 2.0 adapter wouldn't make sense, unless you also either upgraded the router or attached a separate Gigabit switch to the router, to which you'd connect any Gigabit-capable devices.



dscl said:


> I am on SDV and have a TA connected and running.


Ah, OK, good, that's the main thing I was wondering.

It sounds like you've done the requisite split for the tuning adapter's and BOLT's coax connections, but when you go MoCA *you'll also need to add a MoCA filter onto the "Coax In" port on the tuning adapter*, to protect the tuning adapter from MoCA signals. Hopefully you can grab the MoCA filter from Charter free-of-charge.

See here for additional info, including a link to one of Cox's much more professional tuning adapter self-install instruction documents, as compared to Charter's non-existent documentation (from what I can tell).



dscl said:


> I have one spilt in the house in the bedroom that I put in to split the line for the TA and Bolt.
> ...
> Coax come into the house at the office:
> Living Room:
> Bedroom:


Sounds good, but the answer to your question "will OPTION 2 give me a MoCA connection at each drop in my house?" can only be known once it is understood how the above 3 rooms connect to each other, likely in a junction/cable box outside your house, or possibly in your basement(?).

Once you've found this main splitter connecting the coax runs to your 3 rooms together, you'll want to note the splitter's frequency and also get a "PoE" MoCA filter installed on its input.

See attached for my work-up of what I believe to be your planned coax plant, including the missing/mystery components.



Code:


Legend:  ]- COAX    >= Ethernet    }~ USB    | intra-device link


[COLOR="red"][B]Charter PoE ]- "PoE" MoCA Filter ]- Splitter? 1 (3-way?)[/B][/COLOR] |1]- [Office]- MoCA adapter "RF In" |"RF Out"  ]- Modem (SB6121) >= Router "WAN" port
                                                         |                                   |
                                                         |                                   |"Ethernet">=================== Router "LAN" port
                                                         |
                                                         |
                                                         |2]- [LivingRoom]- TiVo Mini
                                                         |
                                                         |
                                                         |3]- [Bedroom]- Splitter 2 (2-way) |1]- [B][COLOR="Blue"]MoCA Filter[/COLOR][/B] ]- Tuning Adapter "Coax In" |"Coax Out"]- 75-ohm terminator cap
                                                                                            |                                            |
                                                                                            |                                            |"USB"}~~~~~~ BOLT "USB" port
                                                                                            |
                                                                                            |2]------------------------------------------------------- BOLT "Coax" port
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                       BOLT "Ethernet" port >= Optional Ethernet device or switch

.


----------



## epstewart

dscl said:


> Hey krkaufman- Thanks for the time and help you are giving me!
> 
> I'm on Charter, getting 60MG down, I am on SDV and have a TA connected and running.
> 
> I don't have the power line adapters yet and I was just looking at my options since I was not sure if option #2 would give me MoCA at every drop in the house, but seeing that it will and the price of the MoCA and power line adapters are not that much off, option #1 is a no go for me.
> 
> I have one spilt in the house in the bedroom that I put in to split the line for the TA and Bolt.
> 
> I don't know the brand of the splitter but it was given to me by Charter and it's 1Ghz.
> 
> Don't have access to scanner so best I can do for my setup is write it out.
> 
> Coax come into the house at the office:
> 
> 1. Coax is plugged into the modem
> 2. Modem is plugged into a wireless router and on the router I have a ooma phone adapter and two computers plugged into it's ethernet ports in the back.
> 
> Living Room:
> 
> 1. One Coax drop that (today) is plugged into Charter cablebox
> 2. Box is connected to TV by HDMI
> 3. Also have a FireTV and a sound bar connected.
> 
> Bedroom:
> 
> 1. One Coax drop split with one connection going to the TA and the other going to the Bolt.
> 
> Thanks Again!


Glad you are ditching option 1!

I may be misunderstanding it, but if your cable enters your house in the office and runs right to your modem, and you just have one splitter (for the Bolt and the TA in the bedroom) I don't see where the coax drops to your living room and to your bedroom arise. It would seem you must have at least one or perhaps two other splitters somewhere!

If that's right, and if all the splitters are 1GHz, that could pose a problem with MoCA. So if you get a MoCA network adapter and set everything up, but then it's not working well enough to suit you, maybe you'd need to root out and replace some of the splitters with higher bandwidth ones.

BTW, I'm just on MoCA 1.1 here, and so far I have no complaints ...


----------



## mdavej

Nice plan kr. Only change I would make is leave off the terminator on the TA. I don't think it makes any difference. I don't have one on mine, and have zero issues.

Also realize that a 3-way splitter is unbalanced. So the losses on each port are different. You'll want to put the Bolt drop on the lowest loss port.


----------



## krkaufman

mdavej said:


> Nice plan kr. Only change I would make is leave off the terminator on the TA. I don't think it makes any difference. I don't have one on mine, and have zero issues.


It's recommended to terminate the unused port. (Noting that it wasn't so much of a concern to me, apparently, that I didn't highlight it blue, like the MoCA filter needed on the tuning adapter.)



> Also realize that a 3-way splitter is unbalanced. So the losses on each port are different. You'll want to put the Bolt drop on the lowest loss port.


Some are, some aren't. Right now that "3-way" is merely a placeholder, as we don't know *what* is connecting those rooms together. They'll definitely have to make a choice between the cable modem and the BOLT, though most recommendations I've seen are to split the signal to the modem, first. They'll have to see what works for them.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> If that's right, and if all the splitters are 1GHz, that could pose a problem with MoCA. So if you get a MoCA network adapter and set everything up, but then it's not working well enough to suit you, maybe you'd need to root out and replace some of the splitters with higher bandwidth ones.


Concur, with the caveat that you should look to upgrade all your splitters to MoCA-compatible splitters, when you can if doing MoCA 1.1, and as soon as possible or immediately if you're looking to get a MoCA 2.0 adapter. You'll likely be able to establish a connection and communicate with the 1GHz splitters, but you can bank on MoCA 2.0 bandwidth being hampered by 1GHz splitters.

edit: p.s. see this coincidentally-timed post for some more detail: http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10733797


----------



## dscl

Thanks again everyone!

I can only see one splitter but see we are talking it only makes sense that there has to be more to get to the other rooms, will take a walk around the house tonight to confirm how everything is connected.

As far as my router it's a tp link archer c7 and it has a integrated gigabit switch so I should be ok on that end.


----------



## rdlm

I see one post related to this that's over a year old, but it doesn't quite answer my question. Hopefully I didn't miss anything in this very long thread!

I'm replacing a Premiere that died, with a Bolt. I want to add a couple Minis while I'm at it. I do NOT have wired Ethernet through my home, and it's not practical to have a hard-wired Ethernet cable from my router to my Bolt. But I do have a WiFi N network, including a WiFi bridge in the cabinet where the Bolt will go. This WiFi bridge was used by my Premiere (and other devices), and worked fine for Netflix streaming, etc. 

The MoCA setup instructions state that the Bolt must be connected via a wired network, and not WiFi. In several places, it says you must connect the Ethernet cable between the Tivo and your router. Are they over-stating the requirement? Is the requirement that you must use the RJ45 Ethernet jack, and not the built-in Wifi? Or is the requirement that the RH45 Ethernet jack must really be directly wired to the router?

Specifically, can I use my WiFi bridge for network connectivity, and then string a Cat5e cable to the RJ45 port on the Bolt and be all set with my MoCA network? Or do I really need to purchase a MoCA network adapter, and install that with a physical cable between my router and my bridge?

Can I have:
Cable -> Cable Modem -> Router -> WiFi N Network -> WiFi Bridge -> Cat5e -> Bolt
Cable -> Mini

Or do I need to by a MoCA network adapter and have:
Cable -> Cable Modem -> Router -> MoCA network adapter
Cable -> Bolt
Cable -> Mini


----------



## epstewart

rdlm said:


> I see one post related to this that's over a year old, but it doesn't quite answer my question. Hopefully I didn't miss anything in this very long thread!
> 
> I'm replacing a Premiere that died, with a Bolt. I want to add a couple Minis while I'm at it. I do NOT have wired Ethernet through my home, and it's not practical to have a hard-wired Ethernet cable from my router to my Bolt. But I do have a WiFi N network, including a WiFi bridge in the cabinet where the Bolt will go. This WiFi bridge was used by my Premiere (and other devices), and worked fine for Netflix streaming, etc.
> 
> The MoCA setup instructions state that the Bolt must be connected via a wired network, and not WiFi. In several places, it says you must connect the Ethernet cable between the Tivo and your router. Are they over-stating the requirement? Is the requirement that you must use the RJ45 Ethernet jack, and not the built-in Wifi? Or is the requirement that the RH45 Ethernet jack must really be directly wired to the router?
> 
> Specifically, can I use my WiFi bridge for network connectivity, and then string a Cat5e cable to the RJ45 port on the Bolt and be all set with my MoCA network? Or do I really need to purchase a MoCA network adapter, and install that with a physical cable between my router and my bridge?
> 
> Can I have:
> Cable -> Cable Modem -> Router -> WiFi N Network -> WiFi Bridge -> Cat5e -> Bolt
> Cable -> Mini
> 
> Or do I need to by a MoCA network adapter and have:
> Cable -> Cable Modem -> Router -> MoCA network adapter
> Cable -> Bolt
> Cable -> Mini


Other, wiser heads will probably chime in here if I'm wrong, but my belief is that bridging Ethernet from router to Bolt using Wi-Fi in the middle is a non-starter. It doesn't work.

Using a MoCA network adapter at the cable modem/router does work.

If the Wi-Fi bridge arrangement were possible, I would think the TiVo folks would tout it. A lot of people like you would smile.

However, nothing is stopping you from trying it, and if it doesn't work (as I predict it won't) going ahead and installing a MoCA adapter ...


----------



## rcr2

rdlm said:


> I see one post related to this that's over a year old, but it doesn't quite answer my question. Hopefully I didn't miss anything in this very long thread!
> 
> I'm replacing a Premiere that died, with a Bolt. I want to add a couple Minis while I'm at it. I do NOT have wired Ethernet through my home, and it's not practical to have a hard-wired Ethernet cable from my router to my Bolt. But I do have a WiFi N network, including a WiFi bridge in the cabinet where the Bolt will go. This WiFi bridge was used by my Premiere (and other devices), and worked fine for Netflix streaming, etc.
> 
> The MoCA setup instructions state that the Bolt must be connected via a wired network, and not WiFi. In several places, it says you must connect the Ethernet cable between the Tivo and your router. Are they over-stating the requirement? Is the requirement that you must use the RJ45 Ethernet jack, and not the built-in Wifi? Or is the requirement that the RH45 Ethernet jack must really be directly wired to the router?
> 
> Specifically, can I use my WiFi bridge for network connectivity, and then string a Cat5e cable to the RJ45 port on the Bolt and be all set with my MoCA network? Or do I really need to purchase a MoCA network adapter, and install that with a physical cable between my router and my bridge?
> 
> Can I have:
> Cable -> Cable Modem -> Router -> WiFi N Network -> WiFi Bridge -> Cat5e -> Bolt
> Cable -> Mini
> 
> Or do I need to by a MoCA network adapter and have:
> Cable -> Cable Modem -> Router -> MoCA network adapter
> Cable -> Bolt
> Cable -> Mini


One thing - is your router/cablemodem MoCa enabled? If so, you don't need ethernet on your Bolt (or Roamio) or Mini. It'll all connect through MoCa.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

rdlm said:


> The MoCA setup instructions state that the Bolt must be connected via a wired network, and not WiFi. In several places, it says you must connect the Ethernet cable between the Tivo and your router. Are they over-stating the requirement? Is the requirement that you must use the RJ45 Ethernet jack, and not the built-in Wifi? Or is the requirement that the RH45 Ethernet jack must really be directly wired to the router?


Since you have the wireless bridge already, try it. Using the ethernet port has successfully "fooled" the Tivo before.

If it fails, you'll want a moca adapter.


----------



## krkaufman

rcr2 said:


> One thing - *is your router/cablemodem MoCa enabled?* If so, you don't need ethernet on your Bolt (or Roamio) or Mini. It'll all connect through MoCa.


Sadly, unless their text depiction isn't telling an accurate story, the anwer is no... since they're showing separate cable modem and router devices:


> Cable -> Cable Modem -> Router ->


You'd need to have, as your question implied, a combo modem/router gateway to be able to do MoCA, as the coax port would need to be connected to the LAN side of the router -- and standalone modems, where the only coax port would be in the separated config, only ever have the single Ethernet jack for making the WAN connection to the router.


----------



## krkaufman

rdlm said:


> I see one post related to this that's over a year old, but it doesn't quite answer my question. Hopefully I didn't miss anything in this very long thread!


Heh, strangely enough, you might have had better luck starting from the last post and working backwards (after reading this thread's OP, of course!), as another TCFer asked a nearly identical question, just yesterday.

You can find yesterday's question, here: *post #1305*. The followup discussion runs from the above link down to *post #1323*, the post immediately before yours.

I think you'll agree that it's a similar situation (nearly identical, really), so long as you substitute "Wireless-N adapter" for "POE adapter" (understanding the poster meant "Powerline adapter"). The concept is certainly the same... Create a MoCA network over which the TiVo devices can communicate with each other, but then use an alternative technology to bridge this isolated MoCA segment over to the router/LAN.

And my responses would be similar, as well, substituting "wireless" wherever you see "Powerline," so I'll defer to what I said in the previous discussion until I hear something that requires special consideration.

Give the last day's postings a read and let us know if you have any questions.

Karl


----------



## krkaufman

rdlm said:


> can I use my WiFi bridge for network connectivity, and then string a Cat5e cable to the RJ45 port on the Bolt and be all set with my MoCA network?


Note that what you're attempting isn't all that crazy, and though it may not currently be supported, officially, by TiVo, it was indicated by Ira Bahr, TiVo's CMO, during his "TCF Community Quick Chat" at the end of September (2015), that TiVo engineers are working on this very capability for the BOLT, itself, though no promises were made.

See Ira's comment here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10651418


Ira Bahr said:


> Dan203 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Bolt allow MoCa to Wifi bridging? So that Minis can connect to the TiVo over MoCa but have them all connect to the internet via Wifi. The Roamio does not currently allow this. It will bridge MoCa to Ethernet, but not to Wifi.
> 
> 
> 
> Our engineers are working on the ability of the host unit (BOLT) to connect to the Internet via Wi-Fi and then bridge that to the MoCA to share Internet for guide data, SW downloads and OTT streaming as well as the ability to MRS between units.
Click to expand...

The big question for me is how well such a solution would work once customers start taking advantage of the BOLT's 4K feature and start streaming 4K content over the weak link, but especially whether the link will hold if/when the Minis become 4K-capable Minis and you're trying to pull multiple 4K streams over a wireless or Powerline link. The heavy traffic would no longer be restricted to MRS communication between TiVo devices.

As I stated in yesterday's discussion, I'd still recommend going all MoCA if the cabling's available or can be easily added; I view this bridging of a MoCA segment as the next best choice, if you can't go all MoCA.


----------



## krkaufman

rdlm said:


> Can I have:
> Cable -> Cable Modem -> Router -> WiFi N Network -> WiFi Bridge -> Cat5e -> Bolt
> Cable -> Mini


Strictly speaking, your wireless bridge solution would be more like the following, correct?

Cable -> Cable Modem -> Router (w WiFi N Network)
WiFi Bridge -> Ethernet(Cat5e) -> BOLT
Cable -> BOLT
Cable -> Mini


----------



## rdlm

Great info. Thank you. Sorry for missing the more recent post. The POE reference through me off, and I was largely looking for "bridging" in the discussion. Plus, that was 45 pages into reading the thread, and I was fading fast. 

As krkaufman points out, I have a separate cable modem and router, so a MoCA enabled cable modem wouldn't help me.

Also, krkaufman correctly pointed out that my diagram was missing the Cable -> BOLT connection. That's definitely there.

After reading the thread, I'm pretty convinced that my idea would work, though might have some limitations in the future with 4K (which I don't care about at this point). Ira's comments add weight to my thinking that with MoCA, while you need Internet for updates and schedule, a wifi link in the path should be fine.

But based on the information, I'm actually thinking I may go MoCA 2.0 instead, which would require the Actiontec adapter anyways, and leverage that more broadly. Having not started the setup yet (I've bought the BOLT and need to install that this weekend, and adding the Minis will be Phase 2), are there any implications / complications with using the ActionTec adapter rather than the Tivo one?

But now I need to go check the specs on the 3-way splitter that Comcast installed where the cable enters my house and see if it needs to be upgraded... along with adding a POE filter just before the splitter.


----------



## epstewart

rdlm said:


> But based on the information, I'm actually thinking I may go MoCA 2.0 instead, which would require the Actiontec adapter anyways, and leverage that more broadly. Having not started the setup yet (I've bought the BOLT and need to install that this weekend, and adding the Minis will be Phase 2), are there any implications / complications with using the ActionTec adapter rather than the Tivo one?


I'm not sure which Actiontec MoCA adapter you are thinking of? Actiontec offers various models. I assume you mean one with MoCA 2.0. In general, there should be no unforeseen complications with not using the TiVo adapter. Note that in your setup, only the Bolt supports MoCA 2.0, not the Minis. The Minis will still communicate with the Bolt using MoCA 1.1.


----------



## krkaufman

rdlm said:


> But based on the information, I'm actually thinking I may go MoCA 2.0 instead, which would require the Actiontec adapter anyways, and leverage that more broadly. ... are there any implications / complications with using the ActionTec adapter rather than the Tivo one?


A standalone adapter is my preference, owing to the advantage that MoCA-connected devices (e.g. Minis streaming Netflix) won't lose network and Internet connectivity whenever the DVR is rebooting, as they would if relying on the BOLT's built-in MoCA bridge, as an example.

If you're saying "MoCA 2.0" and "Actiontec," you have two MoCA 2.0 models to choose from; see here.

Note that the bonded/extended MoCA 2.0 adapter (ECB6200) would likely be preferable for those "more broadly" goals, but it's more than the standard MoCA 2.0 BOLT requires. Also, the SmallNetBuilder review of the ECB6200, available at the above link, indicates that Actiontec is looking into an issue where the throughput of the adapter deteriorates over time to nearly Fast Ethernet speeds, requiring a power cycle of the adapter.



rdlm said:


> Having not started the setup yet (I've bought the BOLT and need to install that this weekend, and adding the Minis will be Phase 2),


I'd suggest 3 phases... BOLT via built-in wireless, MoCA'fication, Minis.

You'll want to get your BOLT up and running, recording, etc., and get a feel for it, so you can make the keep/kick decision before the TiVo 30-day "trial" window expires. (see here)


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> If you're saying "MoCA 2.0" and "Actiontec," you have two MoCA 2.0 models to choose from; see here.


Oops, that link to your earlier post contains a busted link to the product data sheet for the ECB6200 Bonded MoCA 2.0 Network Adapter, so here's a link to the Actiontec web page for that adapter:

http://www.actiontec.com/339.html


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Oops, that link to your earlier post contains a busted link to the product data sheet for the ECB6200 Bonded MoCA 2.0 Network Adapter, so here's a link to the Actiontec web page for that adapter:
> 
> http://www.actiontec.com/339.html


Thanks; updated. Actiontec's site didn't have the product pages in order at the time the OP was created; thanks for the heads-up.


----------



## capecodtuc

I have just purchased a new Bolt, which is working wirelessly right now. However, I would like to set up a MoCA network so I can use a mini in a bedroom, and to transfer programs more quickly. I decided to buy an Actiontec 2.0 MoCA adapter - the 6000, as there seems to be a problem with the 6200 slowing down. I'm trying to connect it and all I can find on the /tivo weebsite are directions for using the Actiontec 1 adapters. The version 2 adapter has only one Coax port and one ethernet port, so using the diagrams for the version 1 won't work. I tried to hook it up using the diagram that cam with the version 2, but it didn't work (It has me connect the cable wall drop via coax to the adapter and the adapter to the modem via ethernet cable. It assumes that I have a modem/router, which I do not.) I tried this hookup and found that I lost my internet and my phone line. (I have a telephony modem.) 

The setup that I have is:


----------



## capecodtuc

I accidentally posted the above. This is a continuation:

My setup: cable wall drop via coax to telephony modem; modem to Airport Extreme via ethernet cable. Modem/router is in a different room than the Bolt. The only place where there is a ethernet connection is through the router. Cable is throughout the house, with splitters in some areas. I do have a POE filter at the house cable inlet.

I called Tivo for help and the tech told me that they do not support using MoCA version 2 adapters and that I should return the one I have and get a version 1. I have read on this form and others that there are people who have the version 2 adapters successfully hooked up, but in searching the forums, I can't see how they did it. And I don't know if having a telephony modem muddies the waters. 

At any rate, can someone tell me how to hook this up?

Thanks
Nancy


----------



## krkaufman

Nancy, you just need to use a 2-way MoCA-compatible splitter* to split that coax line currently running to your cable modem, such that one output of the splitter would connect to the modem and the other output would connect to your MoCA adapter. You would then connect the Ethernet port on the MoCA adapter to a LAN port on your router and you should be set. (Barring issues w/ other components on your coax lines.)

Simple as this, I'd think...


Code:


Legend:  ]- COAX    >= Ethernet    | intra-device link


 [Wall Outlet]- Splitter (2-way) |1]- Cable Modem  "RF In"|"Ethernet">= Router "WAN" port
                                 |
                                 |
                                 |2]- MoCA adapter "RF In"|"Ethernet">= Router "LAN" port

* p.s. Any 1GHz splitter may work to get you going, but you'll want to upgrade this splitter (and any others through which your MoCA signals will travel) to a MoCA-friendly 5-1675 MHz (or better) splitter.


----------



## capecodtuc

Thanks Kr,

Thats what I guessed might work, but wanted some verification. (didn't have time to test it out and was afraid of messing things up.) The splitters in the entry way that I can access all say 5-1000 mHz. (I have an empty bag that is labeled 5 to 2 GHz, so somewhere in the house there is one that is that bandwidth, but I don't know where it is.) The line to my modem is a continuous line from an initial splitter at the coax house drop to the modem outlet, so I know that there aren't any other splitters in the run. In the rest of the house, I have no idea what is in the wall, including what is running to the Tivo. 

How do I know if a splitter is 2-way? Are they labelled as such? Is a splitter that is rated up to 1675 okay or do I specifically need one that is labeled 2-way? ... or one that is labeled MoCa?

Thanks again for your help.

Nancy


----------



## capecodtuc

Hi KR,

Please excuse the blunder above - 2-way is the number of connections, not the direction of flow of signal. (Duh!) 

The cable drop to our cable box has modifications on top of modifications, due to numerous remodelings of the house. Here is what we have - (hopefully clear) 

cable from pole ---coupler w/ ground wire ----2 way splitter --up to roof
--to Amplifier ---4 way splitter 


--4 way splitter| ---terminated 
|---to roof ( newest cable)
|--- to roof
|--- to guest room (along exterior of house)

(I scanned a better drawn diagram, but apparently need to have it on a website to include it.)
I can't get up on the roof to see which cable goes where in the house. I am suspicious that the newest cable is the one that we had dropped to our office where our modem/router and computers are. We had the amplifier installed before we did that in trying to strengthen the signal to the office (end of house farthest from entry), where our computers kept dropping the signal. (It didn't work, so we had the cable installed directly to the office.)

Both of the splitters are rated 5-1000mHz; I will replace these tomorrow with new ones rated up to at least 1675. (As I asked above, do I specifically need MoCA ones, or are any good ones okay?)

I included the above routing to ask you if there is a better way to connect the cables than what we have. It is such a mess in the box that I have trouble fitting the cover on, especially now with the POE filter.

Thank you again for your help - it is so nice to have my questions answered directly (which is what I expected from Tivo tech help, but didn't get).

Nancy


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> (I scanned a better drawn diagram, but apparently need to have it on a website to include it.)


The attachment dialog allows uploading from your computer. (edit: though it may have some file size maximum I'm not aware of)


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Nancy, you just need to use a 2-way MoCA-compatible splitter* to split that coax line currently running to your cable modem, such that one output of the splitter would connect to the modem and the other output would connect to your MoCA adapter. You would then connect the Ethernet port on the MoCA adapter to a LAN port on your router and you should be set. (Barring issues w/ other components on your coax lines.)
> 
> Simple as this, I'd think...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Legend:  ]- COAX    >= Ethernet    | intra-device link
> 
> 
> [Wall Outlet]- Splitter (2-way) |1]- Cable Modem  "RF In"|"Ethernet">= Router "WAN" port
> |
> |
> |2]- MoCA adapter "RF In"|"Ethernet">= Router "LAN" port
> 
> * p.s. Any 1GHz splitter may work to get you going, but you'll want to upgrade this splitter (and any others through which your MoCA signals will travel) to a MoCA-friendly 5-1675 MHz (or better) splitter.


So Actiontec's ECB6000 MoCA 2.0 Network Adapter has no coax output. Is this not a step backward, as it requires the user to get a splitter to be used with a cable modem?


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> So Actiontec's ECB6000 MoCA 2.0 Network Adapter has no coax output.


Yes, just the coax in and an Ethernet port.


----------



## capecodtuc

I typed out the configuration that I described above ((several posts ago). I had a problem getting it to a small enough size to post. Hopefully this will come through correctly.

At any rate, can you see a way for me to improve the setup of splitters, or should I leave it as is? (I won't see how the hookup to the Tivo etc works until tomorrow.) Will the amplifier affect anything?

And, is any good quality splitter ok or do I need to have one specifically labeled MoCA?


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> Both of the splitters are rated 5-1000mHz; I will replace these tomorrow with new ones rated up to at least 1675. (As I asked above, do I specifically need MoCA ones, or are any good ones okay?)


As mentioned, you'll likely be able to establish a MoCA network with just 1GHz splitters, but you'll want to plan on upgrading them to ensure you're not throttling your MoCA 2.0 bandwidth. Of course, if you're having trouble getting MoCA working, the upgrades may need to come sooner rather than later. And the splitters don't need to say "MoCA"; people seem to have luck w/ quality splitters rated 5-2000 MHz.

The biggest impediment to initializing a MoCA network on all your coax will likely be that amplifier. Can you check it and report back with its brand, model number, and number of ports? If you still need the amplification (not sure you do), you may need to upgrade that amp to a MoCA-compatible model. Your MoCA network won't need the amplification, so it'll just be a matter of whether the BOLT(?) needs it to have a sufficient cable TV signal.

For that matter, are you feeding cable TV or OTA antenna to your BOLT?



> I included the above routing to ask you if there is a better way to connect the cables than what we have. It is such a mess in the box that I have trouble fitting the cover on, especially now with the POE filter.


You may be able to reduce the volume of devices in the cable box if you find the amplifier isn't needed. Other than that, there's no way to recommend any changes without knowing which lines you actually need and where your devices are or will be located. (BOLT, Mini, modem, other?) You could look into a tracing tool, such as this one, if you think it might help identify to which coax lines your rooms are connected, and which lines have additional splits somewhere.


----------



## epstewart

capecodtuc said:


> Here is what we have - (hopefully clear)
> 
> cable from pole ---coupler w/ ground wire ----2 way splitter --up to roof
> --to Amplifier ---4 way splitter
> 
> --4 way splitter| ---terminated
> |---to roof ( newest cable)
> |--- to roof
> |--- to guest room (along exterior of house)
> 
> (I scanned a better drawn diagram, but apparently need to have it on a website to include it.)
> I can't get up on the roof to see which cable goes where in the house. I am suspicious that the newest cable is the one that we had dropped to our office where our modem/router and computers are. We had the amplifier installed before we did that in trying to strengthen the signal to the office (end of house farthest from entry), where our computers kept dropping the signal. (It didn't work, so we had the cable installed directly to the office.)
> 
> Both of the splitters are rated 5-1000mHz; I will replace these tomorrow with new ones rated up to at least 1675. (As I asked above, do I specifically need MoCA ones, or are any good ones okay?)


I'm not clear on several things:


The 2-way splitter: one of its outputs goes to the roof, and the other goes to the 4-way splitter, or am I reading that wrong?
Two of the outputs of the 4-way splitter also go to the roof?
Where do the (three?) "roof" outputs wind up going, how do they get there, and what do they connect to in the house?
Where in all that is "the box" in which you have the POE filter?

Anyway, some general observations:

First, the POE filter, if in the right place in the scheme, is your best friend. It will keep your MoCA signals as strong as they can be.

Second, just try installing your MoCA adapter! You may find that everything works fine! If it does not, then you can address the question of improving your splitters and possibly simplifying the whole arrangement. MoCA apparently has ways of offsetting inadequacies in the coax infrastructure (up to a point, that is). So a "just try it" approach is sometimes best.

Third, if you want to go ahead and improve your coax infrastructure anyway, one question is that of the 4-way splitter. It is my understanding that not all the drops off a 4-way splitter are typically equal in signal strength. Some are stronger than others, and the splitter itself should be marked as such in terms of the "minus dB" of each tap. (krkaufman, correct me if I'm wrong about this.) You'd probably want the lowest-attenuation tap to go to your MoCA setup. That would seem to be the "newest cable" which leads to your office with the modem, router, and MoCA adapter in it.

Fourth, your Mini uses MoCA 1.1, so that is the "flavor" of MoCA that your Bolt will use in communicating with it. My own Bolt-to-Mini-via-MoCA-1.1 experience is that this is all the speed most of us need. True, MoCA 2.0 speeds can help when there are multiple TiVos in the household with multiple data streams whizzing along at one time. And they can facilitate situations where (say) the Bolt is bridged to various other Ethernet devices. But you don't indicate that these scenarios apply in your house.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Good luck with your setup!

Edit:

krkaufman's post above came in while I was typing this. He has an excellent point about whether you really need an amplifier, what model it is, how many ports it has, what they all lead to, etc. You may need to deal with all that. But I still say "just try it." If MoCA works OK for you and if you have enough signal strength for cable TV reception at your Bolt, you're good to go!


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Yes, just the coax in and an Ethernet port.


Is requiring a splitter in common situations a good choice on Actiontec's part?


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Is requiring a splitter in common situations a good choice on Actiontec's part?


Eh, seems moot, at this point; it definitely seems odd they didn't include one, especially since they did on the "extended" model, the ECB6200. Though maybe that's why TiVo's taking such a long time coming out with their "TiVo BRIDGE"; maybe an updated ECB6000 is in the works.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> You could look into a tracing tool, such as this one, if you think it might help identify to which coax lines your rooms are connected, and which lines have additional splits somewhere.


I really appreciate your linking to that testing tool, which is the Klein Tools VDV512-058 Coax Explorer Plus Tester, for future reference.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> I'm not clear on several things:
> 
> The 2-way splitter: one of its outputs goes to the roof, and the other goes to the 4-way splitter, or am I reading that wrong?
> Two of the outputs of the 4-way splitter also go to the roof?
> Where do the (three?) "roof" outputs wind up going, how do they get there, and what do they connect to in the house?


Per her post, "the roof" is the inaccessible location through which her cables run, leaving her in the dark as to exactly which cables go where, and whether there are additional splitters somewhere unknown. 


capecodtuc said:


> I can't get up on the roof to see which cable goes where in the house.


That said, short of getting a tracing tool as suggested previously, one method of identifying cabling used to be simply to simply connect a TV to a given outlet and disconnect all the central coax lines, connecting and testing each one until the TV produced a picture. It's a bit tougher to do, now, with cable TV providers having gone all digital -- and encrypted. Some people use a modem, instead, knowing they've found the right cable when the modem is able to sync.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> ... short of getting a tracing tool as suggested previously, one method of identifying cabling used to be simply to simply connect a TV to a given outlet and disconnect all the central coax lines, connecting and testing each one until the TV produced a picture. It's a bit tougher to do, now, with cable TV providers having gone all digital. Some people use a modem, instead, knowing they've found the right cable when the modem is able to sync.


Sounds like excellent advice, particularly the part about using the modem to test with ... especially given the importance of the modem feed in many of the MoCA setups used by posters such as capecodtuc (Nancy) in this thread.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Fourth, your Mini uses MoCA 1.1, so that is the "flavor" of MoCA that your Bolt will use in communicating with it. My own Bolt-to-Mini-via-MoCA-1.1 experience is that this is all the speed most of us need. True, MoCA 2.0 speeds can help when there are multiple TiVos in the household with multiple data streams whizzing along at one time. And they can facilitate situations where (say) the Bolt is bridged to various other Ethernet devices. But you don't indicate that these scenarios apply in your house.


Nancy indicated that she opted for the MoCA 2.0 adapter because she was looking to boost transfer rates. I'm assuming she meant between the BOLT and her computer network.


capecodtuc said:


> I have just purchased a new Bolt, which is working wirelessly right now. However, I would like to set up a MoCA network so I can use a mini in a bedroom, and* to transfer programs more quickly*. I decided to buy an Actiontec 2.0 MoCA adapter - the 6000, as there seems to be a problem with the 6200 slowing down.



That said, if she is only looking to leverage MoCA for improved transfers between the BOLT and her computer network, the ECB6200 being buggy was a good thing, since that adapter would be overkill for the BOLT, which can only do standard/"Baseline" MoCA 2.0, 400+ Mbps.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> ... one question is that of the 4-way splitter. It is my understanding that not all the drops off a 4-way splitter are typically equal in signal strength. Some are stronger than others, and the splitter itself should be marked as such in terms of the "minus dB" of each tap.


I haven't seen an unbalanced 4-way splitter; though they might exist. You *will* come across both balanced and unbalanced 3-way splitters, pretty regularly. The following brief post on DSLReports gets the point across, along with some bonus information:
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23954030-​As for what Nancy will need, that will depend on what she determines she wants connected through that cable box. At a minimum, with the fourth output of the 4-way unused, she could look at replacing the 4-way with a MoCA-compatible 3-way splitter, balanced or unbalanced as her needs require.

For example:
4-way: (4x)7.7 dB 
Unbalanced 3-way: (2x)7.7 dB, (1x)3.9 dB
Balanced 3-way: (3x)5.5 dB​


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> I haven't seen an unbalanced 4-way splitter; though they might exist. You *will* come across both balanced and unbalanced 3-way splitters, pretty regularly. The following brief post on DSLReports gets the point across, along with some bonus information:
> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23954030-​As for what Nancy will need, that will depend on what she determines she wants connected through that cable box. At a minimum, with the fourth output of the 4-way unused, she could look at replacing the 4-way with a MoCA-compatible 3-way splitter, balanced or unbalanced as her needs require.
> 
> For example:
> 4-way: (4x)7.7 dB
> Unbalanced 3-way: (2x)7.7 dB, (1x)3.9 dB
> Balanced 3-way: (3x)5.5 dB​


OK, thanks. I'm still learning. So a 4-way splitter is typically balanced, while a 3-way may or may not be balanced. Now that I think about it, it makes sense ...


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> OK, thanks. I'm still learning. So a 4-way splitter is typically balanced, while a 3-way may or may not be balanced.


I see that I may have been extreme in my comment regarding 4-way splitters. Unbalanced 4-way splitters may exist, I just haven't come across one.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> I see that I may have been extreme in my comment regarding 4-way splitters. Unbalanced 4-way splitters may exist, I just haven't come across one.


So ... the operative word is "typically." 4-way splitters are _typically_ balanced in their outputs ...


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> I called Tivo for help and the tech told me that they do not support using MoCA version 2 adapters and that I should return the one I have and get a version 1.


By the way, I relayed your above comment to [email protected], and they replied that they will look into updating their "internal references."


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> OK, thanks. I'm still learning. So a 4-way splitter is typically balanced, while a 3-way may or may not be balanced. Now that I think about it, it makes sense ...


You can build your own unbalanced 3-way splitter by connecting two 2-way splitters in the obvious way. You could build a balanced 3-way splitter using one 6-way splitter and three 2-way splitters, but that would be a waste of space and a lot of short pieces of RG6. I don't believe that real world balanced 3-way splitters are built that way internally.

Similarly, you can build a 4-way splitter by connecting three 2-way splitters. If you connect both outputs of the "top" splitter to the inputs of the other two splitters, you get a balanced 4-way splitter with 7dB insertion loss from the input to any output. If you "chain" them instead, you get a 4-way splitter with insertion losses of (3.5dB, 7db, 10.5db, 10.5db). Such a large imbalance is generally considered undesirable, while completely balanced is usually preferred.

I wouldn't go so far as to claim that there are no commercially available unbalanced 4-way splitters, since it would be trivial to produce one as described above. I've never seen one, and haven't ever had a compelling reason to search for one (a quick Google search found a lot of stuff that *wasn't* an unbalanced 4-way splitter).


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> ... and a lot of short pieces of RG6.


Where do people get short pieces of coax, anyway? I've had some lying around for years, origins now unknown, but for the many inquiring minds who post questions to this thread, how do they come up with short coax cables. For instance, recent questions by capecodtuc, a.k.a. Nancy, turned up the matter of getting a splitter to go with the Actiontec ECB6200 MoCA adapter, which has no coax output. She would need a short piece of coax, presumably ...


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> You can build your own unbalanced 3-way splitter by connecting two 2-way splitters in the obvious way. You could build a balanced 3-way splitter using one 6-way splitter and three 2-way splitters, but that would be a waste of space and a lot of short pieces of RG6. I don't believe that real world balanced 3-way splitters are built that way internally.


Wouldn't the loss in this inventive DIY 3-way balanced splitter be greater than what you see in a retail balanced 3-way? (Whereas the DIY unbalanced 3-way would be quite similar to what you'd see in a retail product.)


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Where do people get short pieces of coax, anyway? I've had some lying around for years, origins now unknown, but for the many inquiring minds who post questions to this thread, how do they come up with short coax cables. For instance, recent questions by capecodtuc, a.k.a. Nancy, turned up the matter of getting a splitter to go with the Actiontec ECB6200 MoCA adapter, which has no coax output. She would need a short piece of coax, presumably ...


DIY. e.g.: http://www.ebay.com/itm/391340653967


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> I typed out the configuration that I described above ((several posts ago). I had a problem getting it to a small enough size to post. Hopefully this will come through correctly.


Hi, Nancy,

Between your descriptions and the image you uploaded, I have a vague understanding of your coax configuration, but many questions remain, as previously mentioned. I've thrown together a diagram of my current understanding of your setup, with the MoCA adapter, Mini and a bonus Ethernet switch thrown-in (for future discussion).





​As has been mentioned, you can hook-up your MoCA adapter and see what works, and then start troubleshooting from there. The TiVo Mini (and a portable HDTV) can be quite handy in identifying whether a given coax outlet has MoCA connectivity, and documenting the MoCA signal quality.

The diagram, assuming it matches reality, depicts the importance of that amp in terms of your MoCA signals getting from your MoCA adapter to the rest of your rooms. You may want to simply remove that amp from your setup before you begin configuring your BOLT. Hopefully you'll find that an amp isn't needed for your TiVo solution, and so the MoCA-compatibility of this particular amp will be irrelevant.

Best of luck, today...

Karl


----------



## capecodtuc

Hi KR,



krkaufman said:


> As mentioned, you'll likely be able to establish a MoCA network with just 1GHz splitters, but you'll want to plan on upgrading them to ensure you're not throttling your MoCA 2.0 bandwidth. Of course, if you're having trouble getting MoCA working, the upgrades may need to come sooner rather than later. And the splitters don't need to say "MoCA"; people seem to have luck w/ quality splitters rated 5-2000 MHz.
> 
> The biggest impediment to initializing a MoCA network on all your coax will likely be that amplifier. Can you check it and report back with its brand, model number, and number of ports? If you still need the amplification (not sure you do), you may need to upgrade that amp to a MoCA-compatible model. Your MoCA network won't need the amplification, so it'll just be a matter of whether the BOLT(?) needs it to have a sufficient cable TV signal.
> 
> For that matter, are you feeding cable TV or OTA antenna to your BOLT?
> 
> You may be able to reduce the volume of devices in the cable box if you find the amplifier isn't needed. Other than that, there's no way to recommend any changes without knowing which lines you actually need and where your devices are or will be located. (BOLT, Mini, modem, other?) You could look into a tracing tool, such as this one, if you think it might help identify to which coax lines your rooms are connected, and which lines have additional splits somewhere.


I hooked up the MoCA network with the setup that I presently have, and it seems to work fine. (The Tivo tells me that it is connected, etc.) My husband is going out this afternoon to purchase new splitters that will transfer up to 2 GHz..

The Amplifier's brand is SVI, model SV-A15PRS. It's labeled 15 dB, 53-1000MHz (so I guess it should be replaced if I find out that things are not okay when I remove it.) As I mentioned in a post earlier, it was installed by Comcast when the signal to the far side of our house wasn't strong enough for the computer to stay online. It didn't resolve the problem, so we had a line dropped directly from the cable drop box over the roof to our office. (I should mention that we have a flat-roofed house (southwestern style), where cables are lain across it. It is accessible, but I am too old to go up the ladder and crawl onto it. I had our handyman go up there and draw a diagram where the cables go, but didn't have him trace them directly from the cable box); that's how I know that there are 3 for sure, and where they go.)

I think I have as good idea as I can get of where the cables go, although there are some mysteries in the wall. One of the lines (of the 3 that go to the roof) goes across the roof and down the side of the house, directly into the master bedroom, where we have a TV (and will install a mini-Tivo as soon as I finish with the changing of the splitters, etc.) Another of the 3 goes across the roof (one of the two from the amplifier, I presume) to over the office and goes directly down to the outlet in the office (next to the modem, etc). The third is somewhat of a mystery. When we were having trouble getting reception to our TV, Comcast send a man over and he installed a cable (one of the present 3) up to the roof and down into the garage, where there was a cable connection box in the wall. He thought that probably whatever cables were in the walls of the house going into that connection box were not getting the signal to the TV, so he dropped a new cable directly into that connection box, and hooked it up to the cable that apparently went to the TV in an adjacent room. He checked the signal at the TV and it was fine. I just looked into that connection box and cannot see any splitters, etc (cable is tight in the wall) , but I have to guess that there is one somewhere, as we have a cable outlet in the room next to our office that works.

I assume that as the amplifier goes only up to 1 GHz, that it should be replaced or eliminated.

We are feeding cable from Comcast to the bolt and the other TV's in the house, along with our phone and modem/router.

Thanks for your help,
Nancy


----------



## capecodtuc

Hi ep,

* - yes, from the 2-way splitter, one goes to roof (which is flat), one to 4-way splitter.
* - Yes, Two of the outputs from the 4 way splitter also go to the roof.
* - The 3 outputs go up the wall of the house from the cable box, and go across the roof to 3 places : (1) down and into the wall of the master bedroom (where I will install a mini-Tivo once I get time) (2) down into the office where we had it dropped so we could get good bandwidth for our modem/router/computers. (3) into the garage, where a connection box connects it with a cable going to the TV room (adjacent) and where there is probably last least one hidden splitter. (See previous post for more detail.

All 4 ports of the 4 way splitter are marked 7 dB, so they are all the same.

I forgot to include in my previous post that the amplifier has 4 outgoing ports, but only one of them is used (which goes to the 4 way splitter).

I think you somewhere asked where the POE filter is. I installed it on the cable coming from the ground (from the pole) just before the 2 way splitter, which is the first place that connects to anywhere in the house. All of these cables, splitters, and amplifier are all in a comcast plastic box attached to the side of the house, which I refer to as the "box"; it is very difficult to get the cover on as it is too crowded.



epstewart said:


> I'm not clear on several things:
> 
> 
> The 2-way splitter: one of its outputs goes to the roof, and the other goes to the 4-way splitter, or am I reading that wrong?
> Two of the outputs of the 4-way splitter also go to the roof?
> Where do the (three?) "roof" outputs wind up going, how do they get there, and what do they connect to in the house?
> Where in all that is "the box" in which you have the POE filter?


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> Another of the 3 goes across the roof (one of the two from the amplifier, I presume) to over the office and goes directly down to the outlet in the office (next to the modem, etc).


This is what's confusing. *Do you have multiple coax runs into the office, then? *You'd previously indicated that the cable modem was directly connected to a new cable run directly from a 2-way splitter at the cable point-of-entry. (see diagram in previous post)

If you DO have 2 separate coax runs into the office, this is something you can possibly take advantage of... but I'll leave discussion of the options until you confirm that 2nd outlet (and its likely connection back to that 4-way splitter).


----------



## capecodtuc

Yes, I opted for the MoCA 2.0 to help in transfers, both between the Tivo and our computers, and between our old Tivo HD, which is full of recorded programs that we still want to see.

And, thanks KR and eb, for your help. I really appreciate it. I'm also glad that you (KB) notified Tivo of their policy of not supporting MoCA 2 adapters. the tech guy even said he talked to a "higher up" supervisor about this. Another annoyance is with Tivo's store - I called them and said that I wanted to buy a Version 2 adapters and that it wasn't in their online store. He told me that they had them and that I could buy one. I asked him 3 times if he was sure that it was a version 2 and he said yes. When it arrived, it was an Actiontec version 1.1; the guy was either incompetent or a liar. Between these two incidents, I am not happy with Tivo.

Nancy



krkaufman said:


> Nancy indicated that she opted for the MoCA 2.0 adapter because she was looking to boost transfer rates. I'm assuming she meant between the BOLT and her computer network.
> ​
> That said, if she is only looking to leverage MoCA for improved transfers between the BOLT and her computer network, the ECB6200 being buggy was a good thing, since that adapter would be overkill for the BOLT, which can only do standard/"Baseline" MoCA 2.0, 400+ Mbps.


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> I forgot to include in my previous post that the amplifier has 4 outgoing ports, but only one of them is used (which goes to the 4 way splitter).


This is surprising as it doesn't match the image I found for the SVI SV-A15PRS:





​
Ah, doing some more googling, I suspect you actually have an SVI SV-A15-*4*PRS (link). Same specs, just 4 outputs instead of 1.

That you're getting a MoCA signal through that amp is somewhat surprising, though it would be interesting to see what your MoCA connection stats are on the BOLT (link).

Though I still can't say whether the BOLT is getting its MoCA signal "through" that amp, as I'm still unclear as to where in your coax setup the BOLT is connected.


----------



## capecodtuc

Hi KR,

I was just finishing typing a response to you to say we don't know which of the 3 cables go where when our handyman arrived to do some work. I asked him to trace the cables; he crawled up on the roof and said that the one from the 2 way splitter is the one that goes to the drop to the office (which I find strange, as I would have thought that the tech would have connected it to the amplifier). That is a new drop, not replacing one, as, now that I remember from 15 years ago, the outlet that had the weak signal for the computer was in the adjacent room which is what we were using for the computer at the time. That outlet is still there and works for TV. The cable that goes into the office has no other cables attached; it comes down the inside of the wall from the roof and just connects to a cable outlet plate. (I pulled off the plate from just a hole cut into the plasterboard, and cannot detect anything but the cable coming down from the roof.)

Unfortunately, there are no other cable outlets in the room. (This house has been remodeled 3 times, only once since we lived here, and the first 2 remodelings were done somewhat haphazardly and without a lot of skill.

The cable outlet in the adjacent room must somehow be connected within the walls to the cable drop into the garage, as it can't be connected to the other drops.

Hope this answers your questions
Thanks again
Nancy



krkaufman said:


> This is what's confusing. *Do you have multiple coax runs into the office, then? *You'd previously indicated that the cable modem was directly connected to a new cable run directly from a 2-way splitter at the cable point-of-entry. (see diagram in previous post)
> 
> If you DO have 2 separate coax runs into the office, this is something you can possibly take advantage of... but I'll leave discussion of the options until you confirm that 2nd outlet (and its likely connection back to that 4-way splitter).


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> Will the amplifier affect anything?


This old post from a TCF veteran explains the amp issue pretty well...



nooneuknow said:


> Any amps, that don't specify they have a MoCA pass-band, like how many can state they have a passive return, needs to be placed upstream as far as possible, preferably at the physical point-of-entry (or demarcation point).
> 
> Amps with such bypasses are rare, and expensive. If you can't place the amp upstream of every path MoCA needs to traverse, things can get pretty complicated. It doesn't need to be at the demarc, as long as it's still upstream of where MoCA needs to traverse.
> 
> An amp without the MoCA pass-band will block the MoCA (at worst), and wreak havoc with harmonic interference (at best).
> 
> The best amps for most standard/simple MoCA installs are those with a single in, and single out, at the demarc, with the PoE filter placed on the OUT port, and splitting done from there. Most amps with multiple ports out just have an internal splitter after a single amp, anyway, and no MoCA PoE filter inside, to keep MoCA out of the amplifier circuitry.


... and your assessment is spot-on:


capecodtuc said:


> The Amplifier's brand is SVI, model SV-A15PRS. It's labeled 15 dB, 53-1000MHz (so *I guess it should be replaced if I find out that things are not okay when I remove it.*)


You said you have MoCA working... was that WITH or WITHOUT the amplifier in place?

(As mentioned previously, how the BOLT is connecting to your coax is still unknown, as its location and connectivity haven't been stated.)


----------



## capecodtuc

I just went out ant looked at the amplifier - it is definitely* A*15PRS. If you look at the photo you included, it looks like there are 4 ports along the bottom, which is what mine has.

The line from the 2 way splitter is the line to the office where the modem/router/ MoCA adapter is, so that line is not going through the amplifier. The line, however, to the Bolt (room where TV is) goes through the amplifier, as that is the line from the garage.

I just checked the network status, and got the following:
- TX Powert 3.00
Packets transmitted - 0
packets received - 0
Bad packets received - 0

Peer Node 
TX PHY Rate - 463.00000
RX PHY - 629.000
TX Power Est - 3
RX Power Est 0.496
Total Packets received 12554
Total Packets received with error 0

I hope that I have included the pertinent information.
Nancy



krkaufman said:


> This is surprising as it doesn't match the image I found for the SVI SV-A15PRS:
> View attachment 24646​
> Ah, doing some more googling, I suspect you actually have an SVI SV-A15-*4*PRS (link). Same specs, just 4 outputs instead of 1.
> 
> That you're getting a MoCA signal through that amp is somewhat surprising, though it would be interesting to see what your MoCA connection stats are on the BOLT (link).
> 
> Though I still can't say whether the BOLT is getting its MoCA signal "through" that amp, as I'm still unclear as to where in your coax setup the BOLT is connected.


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> I forgot to include in my previous post that the amplifier has 4 outgoing ports, but only one of them is used (which goes to the 4 way splitter).


If that amp remains connected, you'll want to install 75-ohm terminators on the unused output ports.


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> I just went out ant looked at the amplifier - it is definitely* A*15PRS. If you look at the photo you included, it looks like there are 4 ports along the bottom, which is what mine has.


But are there associated threaded male coax connectors at each output port location? They reused a single body for both models, but only the "4PRS" has 4 output coax connectors.

Compare pics:





​


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> The line from the 2 way splitter is the line to the office where the modem/router/ MoCA adapter is, so that line is not going through the amplifier. The line, however, to the Bolt (room where TV is) goes through the amplifier, as that is the line from the garage.


Ok, so the BOLT is in the room you called the "TV Room," then... ?

With that in mind, here's my latest understanding of your coax setup. Do you have other rooms with known-working coax connections, other than what's pictured? (symbolized by "Others...?" in the diagram)





​
The Comcast cable box crowding could benefit from either losing the amplifier and replacing the 4-way with a 3-way splitter, or replacing both the amplifier and 4-way splitter with an "output-appropriate" MoCA-compatible amplifier.

---
edit: diagram updated per most recent reply


----------



## capecodtuc

Karl,

To make things as clear as I can, without having a good drawing program on my computer, I have tried to edit you diagram to show what I have. 

What might be the most confusing is that the line from the amplifier that goes to the garage has a splitter within the wall that sends a signal to the TV room (where the Bolt is) and most likely to the roof next to the office.


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> What might be the most confusing is that the line from the amplifier that goes to the garage has a splitter within the wall that sends a signal to the TV room (where the Bolt is) and most likely to the roof next to the office.


Thanks; I think I'd gotten most of that incorporated into the diagram I posted JUST before you uploaded your edits.

I've left the connections between the "garage junction box" and the additional rooms out of the diagram, as the specific location/type/rating on the splitters is unknown, from what I've read.


----------



## capecodtuc

Karl,

To correct your excellent diagram, I have altered it to show the hookups (as well as I can). However, in the TV room, I don't have a switch. There is a coax to the Bolt, with an HDMI cable to an AV receiver, with further HDMI cables from the receiver to the TV, to a Playstation 3 and to an Apple TV (whose connections are at the moment wireless to the network).

I hope that this is clear.

Thanks again for all your help
Nancy


----------



## krkaufman

p.s. The "switch" paired with the BOLT in the TV Room is more a hint of what you *could* do, rather than what you currently have.

With the BOLT networking via MoCA (using the "Connect using MoCA" network configuration option), you can connect another Ethernet device to the BOLT's otherwise-unused Gigabit Ethernet port to provide this device with wired network and Internet connectivity via the BOLT's built-in MoCA bridging feature. Further, you could connect an Ethernet switch to the BOLT's network port in order to provide multiple devices with connectivity via the BOLT.

edit: p.p.s. Yeah, like one or both of these guys, for example...


capecodtuc said:


> ... Playstation 3 and to an Apple TV (whose connections are at the moment wireless to the network).


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> I just checked the network status, and got the following:
> - TX Powert 3.00
> Packets transmitted - 0
> packets received - 0
> Bad packets received - 0
> 
> Peer Node
> TX PHY Rate - 463.00000
> RX PHY - 629.000
> TX Power Est - 3
> RX Power Est 0.496
> Total Packets received 12554
> Total Packets received with error 0


Heh, I haven't worked with MoCA 2.0 adapters, so those PHY rates are outside the scale I'm used to referencing when assessing MoCA 1.1 connection quality. Gonna have to do some learnin'.

Note that you can connect a laptop to the BOLT's Ethernet port to evaluate effective data throughput from the BOLT to your LAN. My preferred method is to run iPerf between the laptop and a computer on the LAN. (Ideally, all your devices are Gigabit Ethernet, so tthat you can fully evaluate the MoCA 2.0 connection and bridge.)


----------



## epstewart

capecodtuc said:


> Karl,
> 
> To correct your excellent diagram, I have altered it to show the hookups (as well as I can). However, in the TV room, I don't have a switch. There is a coax to the Bolt, with an HDMI cable to an AV receiver, with further HDMI cables from the receiver to the TV, to a Playstation 3 and to an Apple TV (whose connections are at the moment wireless to the network).
> 
> I hope that this is clear.
> 
> Thanks again for all your help
> Nancy


Nancy and Karl,

Props to you both for so patiently working out the details of the complex coax runs!

I have some questions and comments that I hope might help.

First, I'm not sure if the "garage junction box" is actually a splitter, or if not, what is it?

Second, I note that the diagram shows just six actual end points where there are devices needing coax inputs:


Modem in office
MoCA adapter in office
Mini in master bedroom
TV in guest room
Bolt in TV room
TV in office-adjacent

My question is, couldn't the 1-input-to-6-outputs arrangement be better accomplished by eliminating certain of the splitters, the junction box, and the amplifier?


----------



## capecodtuc

[/QUOTE]Note that you can connect a laptop to the BOLT's Ethernet port to evaluate effective data throughput from the BOLT to your LAN. My preferred method is to run iPerf between the laptop and a computer on the LAN. (Ideally, all your devices are Gigabit Ethernet, so tthat you can fully evaluate the MoCA 2.0 connection and bridge.)[/QUOTE]

Once I get everything straightened out (seeing if I can remove the amplifier, putting in new splitters, etc, and hooking up the mini-tivo), I will then work on getting the playstation 3, TV and Apple Tv hooked up to the MoCA network. I will have to check out how to do that, as MoCA is new territory for me.

We have 2 laptops in the house, neither of which has an ethernet port. (We could connect one with an adapter, but have no need for it, as we use the wireless system.) Perhaps with the Tivo and other devices not using bandwidth, we can get better reception with our two iPads. We cannot both use them if we are both streaming, for instance; otherwise it's fine. We do each have an HDMI port on our laptops. I'm not familiar with how to utilize that other than with connecting it to a TV, for instance, which I have never felt the need to do, as our wireless system seems to work well. (We have an extender in the TV room.)

Nancy


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> First, I'm not sure if the "garage junction box" is actually a splitter, or if not, what is it?


Correct.



epstewart said:


> Second, I note that the diagram shows just six actual end points where there are devices needing coax inputs:
> 
> 
> Modem in office
> MoCA adapter in office
> Mini in master bedroom
> TV in guest room
> Bolt in TV room
> TV in office-adjacent
> 
> My question is, couldn't the 1-input-to-6-outputs arrangement be better accomplished by eliminating certain of the splitters, the junction box, and the amplifier?


This question seems to ignore the physical locations of many of the splits, and the overriding constraint of the cables as they are currently laid. Some adjustments are possible, and have been mentioned above. (edit: Beyond what was previously suggested, if the amp is determined to be necessary, it's possible that the "PoE" filter, main 2-way splitter, amp & 4-way could all be a single MoCA-compatible amp; would need to look into it.)


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> We have 2 laptops in the house, neither of which has an ethernet port. (We could connect one with an adapter, but have no need for it, as we use the wireless system.)


The laptop suggestion was strictly for the purposes of testing the bandwidth of your MoCA segment, either to some computer on your LAN running iPerf in server mode, or at least via some Internet speed test -- though the value of the effort would hinge on the effective speed of that adapter and how it connects to your laptop. (If your laptop is a Macbook and the adapter is a Thunderbolt to Gigabit Ethernet adapter, you'd be in great shape for testing. If it's a Fast Ethernet USB 2.0 adapter, the adapter, itself, will be the likely bottleneck.)



capecodtuc said:


> Perhaps with the Tivo and other devices not using bandwidth, we can get better reception with our two iPads.


It sounds like you might be due for a wireless router upgrade (what gen of the Airport Extreme are you running?) but, yes, that's exactly the point -- leverage MoCA, where it makes sense, to take the load off your wireless network. Your PS3 and AppleTV don't walk about your house, so no need for them to be using your precious wireless bandwidth -- putting aside that they'll have faster, more reliable networking via the BOLT-bridged wired connection.


----------



## krkaufman

Updated.





​


----------



## snerd

krkaufman said:


> Heh, I haven't worked with MoCA 2.0 adapters, so those PHY rates are outside the scale I'm used to referencing when assessing MoCA 1.1 connection quality. Gonna have to do some learnin'.


MoCA 2.0 PHY rate is typically 700Mbps, MoCA 2.0 (bonded) PHY rate is typically 1.4Gbps.


----------



## capecodtuc

My Airport Extreme is 6th generation (A1521) so it's good; the problem is that we have a long house, with the router at one end. We have no problem except when we are both trying to stream stuff; otherwise it's fine. But i will still make them use the wired connection other than wifi when I get a chance. I still have a bunch of other things to do before that.

Nancy

_It sounds like you might be due for a wireless router upgrade (what gen of the Airport Extreme are you running?) but, yes, that's exactly the point -- leverage MoCA, where it makes sense, to take the load off your wireless network. Your PS3 and AppleTV don't walk about your house, so no need for them to be using your precious wireless bandwidth -- putting aside that they'll have faster, more reliable networking via the BOLT-bridged wired connection.[/QUOTE]_


----------



## capecodtuc

Karl, Your attachment is excellent. Obviously the only mystery area is that connected to the box in the garage. As the other 3 cables coming from the splitters in the Comcast box on the outside of the house all have single direct runs to specific areas (guest bedroom, office, master bedroom) without any branches, any other cable outlets in the house are connected somehow to the cable that is in the garage. Around 5 or 6 years ago (I should have written down the changes that we made, but didn't) we had trouble with the reception to our Tivo and TV. Comcast came out, measured the signal that was going to the outlet by the TV, and found it to be weak. (The wiring was somewhere in the walls of the house.) He found a splitter in the garage with one cable in and two out (I think). He measured the signal from there to the TV and found it to be good, so he ran a coax up onto the roof and brought it down directly into the garage, and then connected one of the cables that was running from there to the TV to the new drop. (He left the other cable, which was running to another outlet in the TV room unconnected, which as fine with us.) When I take the outlet cover off, I can see the unconnected wire, and the drop from the ceiling of the garage connected to what apparently must go to the TV. I can also see another cable in the back which is probably the original wire to the outlet. It is hard to pull out the wires to see if there is a splitter in the wall as there is wire stuffed down between the wall and the insulation and the opening is too small to get my hand in. Because we have an active outlet in the room next to the office, I assume that it must be connected somewhere. Other than not being able to replace the splitter, it probably doesn't matter where it is.

I plan to unconnect the 4 cables in the outside box, and connect them to one 4-way splitter directly, bypassing the amplifier and see how that works. Unfortunately other than seeing if the Bolt works, etc, I don't know how I can see how good the network is. I can go into Tivo settings and compare the numbers to those that I reported earlier, and hope that they are faster. Unfortunately, I have had a problem getting a 4 way splitter that is greater than 1GB; Best Buy, the only place around with splitters that fast, was out of 4-way, so I had to order it through Amazon and won't get it until Wednesday. Meanwhile, I will connect up the Mini in the master bedroom and connect up the old Tivo and start transferring taped programs.

I will let you know what happens when I connect up the new splitter without the amplifier.

thanks for everyone's help and advice

Nancy


----------



## krkaufman

Nancy, since you're not using all 4 ports on the splitter in the Comcast cable box, you only need a 3-way splitter. 

You could even get an unbalanced 3-way splitter (e.g. 3.5dB, 7dB, 7dB), and connect the output port with the lowest loss to the coax line running to the garage, to get the best possible signal to your BOLT. (This would leave the other 2 output ports with the same attenuation as they're currently seeing with the 4-way splitter. Basically, we're putting all the benefits of moving from a 4-way to a 3-way into (marginally) improving the signal to the TV Room.)


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> I plan to unconnect the 4 cables in the outside box, and connect them to one 4-way splitter directly, bypassing the amplifier and see how that works. Unfortunately other than seeing if the Bolt works, etc, I don't know how I can see how good the network is. I can go into Tivo settings and compare the numbers to those that I reported earlier, and hope that they are faster.


Short of connecting a laptop or computer to the BOLT's Ethernet port and running tests, as previously mentioned, your best test might be transferring shows from your PC to the BOLT and then checking the transfer stats. (This seems to be a way many here measure their effective throughput.)

Don't get your hopes up regarding transfer rates between the TiVo HD and the BOLT. The TiVo HD is notoriously slow.


----------



## capecodtuc

I was planning on using a 4-way splitter because I was planning on also replacing the 2-way splitter. I have total 4 lines - one from the 2-way and 3 from the 4- way; if it works, then I can get rid of the amplifier and both present splitters. 

I will expect a slow transfer rate, although I bet it will be faster than it was transferring programs from the TiVo to the computer wirelessly. That was glacial!


----------



## capecodtuc

Thinking about it, would it be better to go as you suggest with an unbalanced 3-way and keep a 2-way? I was assuming that the fewer splitters on the line, the better it would be. Is that wrong?


----------



## snerd

capecodtuc said:


> Thinking about it, would it be better to go as you suggest with an unbalanced 3-way and keep a 2-way? I was assuming that the fewer splitters on the line, the better it would be. Is that wrong?


Going through many splitters is usually worse that going through a single splitter with just the right number of output ports.

However, if you have an unbalanced 3-way splitter, and you connect the -3.5dB output port to the input of a 2-way splitter, then the overall result will be essentially the same as using a single 4-way splitter. The overall path to any final output port will have a loss of about 7dB.

In your system it really isn't super critical. If you were running coax to 12 different locations, it would be a trickier situation.


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> I was planning on using a 4-way splitter because I was planning on also replacing the 2-way splitter. I have total 4 lines - one from the 2-way and 3 from the 4- way; if it works, then I can get rid of the amplifier and both present splitters.


Ah, basically the same thing that I was thinking in regards to researching rolling all those devices up into one, if you found you needed to upgrade to a MoCA-compatible amp.



capecodtuc said:


> Thinking about it, would it be better to go as you suggest with an unbalanced 3-way and keep a 2-way? I was assuming that the fewer splitters on the line, the better it would be. Is that wrong?


The fewer the splitters the better, overall, but I had expected that you would want to keep that initial 2-way splitter in the Comcast cable box, to ensure you get the best possible signal to your cable modem. We've already added an extra 3.5(?) dB drop owing to the splitter needed to feed the MoCA adapter in the Office; replacing the current 2-way with a 4-way would add another 3.5+ dB drop on the line to the Office.

You can reconfigure your lines, as needed, without doing any permanent damage. As you suggested earlier in regards to the amp, if you find something doesn't work, revert.


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> I will expect a slow transfer rate, although I bet it will be faster than it was transferring programs from the TiVo to the computer wirelessly. That was glacial!


From a recent thread bemoaning an unexpectedly slow transfer rate from a TiVo HD to a BOLT...


BigJimOutlaw said:


> Tivos are bandwidth limited by their CPU. The max transfer speeds on the old Series 3's are between 20-25 mbps no matter what.
> 
> You could try giving it some small advantage by turning the tuners to channels you don't receive to stop any recording from happening. That might give transfers a tiny bit more juice, but probably not worth it.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> Updated.
> View attachment 24654​


Assuming the amplifier is not discarded: is there a good way to alter just the configuration of splitters and output connections in the cable box so that the POE filter can be inserted after, not before, the amplifier? That is:

Amplifier --> POE filter --> splitter(s)

Hopefully, the splitters, if more than one, and the lines leading out from them could be chosen so as to provide at least as strong a signal as now exists to each line running out from the cable box.

P.S. Karl, what tool did you draw the diagram with? It's a good one ...


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Assuming the amplifier is not discarded: is there a good way to alter just the configuration of splitters and output connections in the cable box so that the POE filter can be inserted after, not before, the amplifier? That is:
> 
> Amplifier --> POE filter --> splitter(s)


Consider where the MoCA adapter is located and you'll have your answer. That "PoE" MoCA filter isn't so much "before the amplifier" as it is before the main 2-way splitter.
View attachment 24654​


> what tool did you draw the diagram with? It's a good one ...


Paint Shop Pro. Any standard graphics program could do the same... Gimp, etc.


----------



## krkaufman

epstewart said:


> Assuming the amplifier is not discarded: is there a good way to alter just the configuration of splitters and output connections in the cable box so that the POE filter can be inserted after, not before, the amplifier?


p.s. This is why I was trying to determine whether there was a *second* coax run into the office, as connecting such a run to the 4-way splitter would have allowed for a separate MoCA-only connection from the MoCA adapter in the Office and, then, all MoCA traffic would have been downstream of the amp -- and the "PoE" MoCA filter could have been moved to the input to the 4-way. (edit: And the splitter in the Office could have been done away with, as well.)

But there's no second line, so it's moot; and the amp may be going away, anyway, depending on Nancy's test results.


----------



## capecodtuc

I didn't realize that there would be more loss from a 4-way splitter than there would be from a 2-way splitter. Then, it makes sense to keep the 2-way and use a 3-way. I'll try that when I get time (holiday preparations, setting up Mini..etc.) If it works, I guess I wasted money on buying the 4-way. Oh well.



krkaufman said:


> Ah, basically the same thing that I was thinking in regards to researching rolling all those devices up into one, if you found you needed to upgrade to a MoCA-compatible amp.
> 
> The fewer the splitters the better, overall, but I had expected that you would want to keep that initial 2-way splitter in the Comcast cable box, to ensure you get the best possible signal to your cable modem. We've already added an extra 3.5(?) dB drop owing to the splitter needed to feed the MoCA adapter in the Office; replacing the current 2-way with a 4-way would add another 3.5+ dB drop on the line to the Office.
> 
> .


----------



## snerd

capecodtuc said:


> I didn't realize that there would be more loss from a 4-way splitter than there would be from a 2-way splitter. Then, it makes sense to keep the 2-way and use a 3-way. I'll try that when I get time (holiday preparations, setting up Mini..etc.) If it works, I guess I wasted money on buying the 4-way. Oh well.


Roughly speaking, a 4-way splitter passes one fourth of the RF power to each output port, while a 2-way splitter passes one half of the power to each output port. In reality, splitters always absorb a little RF power as the signals pass through. Net result is that the "loss" from (balanced) splitters is mostly just due to dividing the power so that each output port gets an equal share.


----------



## mdavej

Think of electron flow like water flow. Voltage is like pressure, and current is like flow. If you turn your garden hose on and fill up a bucket, you get a fixed amount of water in a given time. Now split it 2-ways and you'll still fill the bucket in the same time if you send both to the same bucket, but you only get half the total from each side of the split, minus any small leaks in the fittings. Put a 4 way split, and each get 1/4th of the total.

3.5dB is approximately a 50% loss (each side of the split is half the total). As you can see, the fewer spits, the better. The most common type of 3 way splitter is actually a 4 way internally, with one leg getting half, and the other 2 getting a quarter of the total. But this is ok. Just send the lowest loss side to your Tivo.


----------



## capecodtuc

AS soon as I read the info in the posts above, I understood perfectly why a 2-way to the MoCA adapter/ modem/router makes the most sense.

Secondly Karl, you are right about the amplifier. The box is so crowded with all of the cables, with the amplifier attached to the back of the box, I didn't see until today when I had everything apart and could really look that the 3 extensions that I thought were ports were closed - nothing could be attached. So there is only one port.

Last night, I hooked up the mini in the Master Bedroom. It seemed to work without any problems, but I didn't have time to watch a whole lot of TV. I did set a OnePass for Jeopardy to be recorded through it's interface.

Today, first I transferred two shows from my Tivo HD (series 3) to the Bolt. Both were 1 hour programs (Chopped from Food network and Downton Abbey from PBS) and they both transferred in 20 minutes. I did this to compare speed to when I install the faster splitters. (I had 1 GHz splitters with a MoCA 2.0 adapter.) The set up that I have is diagramed very well by Karl, except there is presently no switch in the TV room. (See attachment)

Then I took Karl's suggestion of using a 2-way splitter with one port going to the office with the modem/router/MoCA adapter 2.0 and the other port to a 3 way splitter. I left the amplifier out of the connections. I attached the other 3 cables to the 3 ports in the 3-way splitter, each one going (1) to the guest room, (2) TV room with the Tivo Bolt via the garage and (3) the master bedroom. (Karl , to answer your question as to where the Bolt is, it's in the TV room, as you have diagrammed it, along with a TV.) Both new splitters were 5-2500 mHz.

I then went into the house to read the network settings on the TV connected to the Bolt. To compare, these were the settings before  I changed the splitters: TX Power 3.0; TX PHY Rate 463.000; RX PHY 629.000. (These were reported several posts ago.)

Now, after changing the splitters and leaving out the amplifier, I got this: TX Power minus 14.00, TX PHY Rate 633.000, RX PHY Rate 647
, Rx estimated Power 0.5. that was on one node (I assume the Bolt).

I also got another node (I assume the mini) TX PHY - 276, Rx PHY 278, TX Power minus 14, Rx Power .505.

I transferred two programs under this setup - one transferred much faster (Chopped) - in only 12 minutes. The other one is an aberration - Downton Abbey took 24 minutes. As it's the same program as I used before the change, I doubt that it has more definition/resolution or density. I didn't test more transfers because I had to sit there to see when it stopped transferring, or I would miss the time. (I asked a tivo tech is there was a way to see the actual transfer speed, and he said no. That would have made it easier.) I will assume for the time being, that the transfers will be faster.

Everything seems to be fine, BUT, a couple of strange things happened.
1- While watching the tape of today's Jeopardy, there were two recordings. One was roughly the first half and the second one was the second half minus around 7 or 8 minutes. It must have stopped recording and not started again for that length of time. (I was watching the program from the Master Bedroom through the mini, but I can't imagine how that would have mattered, as it's the Bolt doing the recording.
2. While watching live TV, still in the master bedroom, the TV suddenly lost it's connection with the Bolt and of course lost the picture. I had used a cable that just slipped onto the male port instead of screwing on, so it may have been loose. I replaced it with a better cable, screw-on type, and had no further problems. However, I didn't have time to watch TV for long, so I don't know if that will happen again.
3. What I found to be very strange, is that, when looking at network settings on the mini after it lost connection, I found a listing of 6 "unknown errors", with the following;
- 12/24/2015 01:32:02
- 12/24/2015 1:22:21
- 12/23/2015 21:15:26
- 12/23/2015 21:07:05
- 12/23/2015 20:49:23
- 12/23/2015 20:48:54

The time that I saw the above was at 6:50 on 12/23/2015. so the last two might make sense. How could there be an error that has the date of the next day???? or an hour later??

(I do have the network setting info from the mini, but am leaving it out to save some length to the post.)

I'm sorry that this post is so long; perhaps I should have divided it up into separate posts. I did want to let those of you who have been helping me to know the results of the changes that were suggested.

I welcome any comments on the network settings, how I hooked it up, possible causes of the strange things that happened,etc etc. and any other suggestions.

Nancy


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> I didn't test more transfers because I had to sit there to see when it stopped transferring, or I would miss the time. (I asked a tivo tech is there was a way to see the actual transfer speed, and he said no. That would have made it easier.)


See: 


aaronwt said:


> Go into the phone/network menu and look at network diagnostics. Then look at the transfer history and it will shows the speeds of the last transfers.


Here's where you can find the stats for your latest transfer on a Roamio (not sure where it's hiding on a BOLT):
TiVo Central
> Settings & Messages
> Settings
> Network
> View Network Diagnostics
> View transfer history​


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> I then went into the house to read the network settings on the TV connected to the Bolt. To compare, these were the settings before  I changed the splitters: *TX Power 3.0; TX PHY Rate 463.000; RX PHY 629.000*. (These were reported several posts ago.)
> 
> Now, after changing the splitters and leaving out the amplifier, I got this: TX Power minus 14.00, *TX PHY Rate 633.000, RX PHY Rate 647, Rx estimated Power 0.5*. that was on one node (I assume the Bolt).
> 
> I also got another node (I assume the mini) *TX PHY - 276, Rx PHY 278, TX Power minus 14, Rx Power .505*.


I like that the BOLT is now showing 630+ Mbps for both TX & RX; I didn't like that 463 with the amp in the setup. I was initially freaking-out on seeing that second set of numbers for the Mini, until I (eventually) remembered that it's a Mini and so is MoCA 1.1. 270+ Mbps is a good PHY rate for MoCA 1.1.

That said, the above is as expected on the MoCA front (though I am glad things went as expected). The BIG Question after removing the amplifier is going to be whether your BOLT is receiving a sufficiently strong TV signal, so that it can record & buffer Live TV without glitches.


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> I transferred two programs under this setup - one transferred much faster (Chopped) - in only 12 minutes.


I transferred a 1hr4m HD recording in just over 5 minutes, between a Roamio Pro and a basic Roamio connected via Ethernet -- so the limiting factor was the basic Roamio's 100Mbps Fast Ethernet interface. The transfer history screen reported a rate of 91+Mbps, so about what I expected.

The real test for your MoCA network, given that the older TiVo is your current transfer bottleneck, will be when you've setup your (Gigabit-capable?) PC to transfer videos to your BOLT.


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> 3. What I found to be very strange, is that, when looking at network settings on the mini after it lost connection, I found a listing of 6 "unknown errors", with the following;
> - 12/24/2015 01:32:02
> - 12/24/2015 1:22:21
> - 12/23/2015 21:15:26
> - 12/23/2015 21:07:05
> - 12/23/2015 20:49:23
> - 12/23/2015 20:48:54
> 
> The time that I saw the above was at 6:50 on 12/23/2015. so the last two might make sense. How could there be an error that has the date of the next day???? or an hour later??


If I were forced to make a guess, I would say that the Mini is recording & reporting those times relative to GMT/UTC, so you'd need to subtract however many hours you're offset from GMT to translate the timestamps to local time.

e.g. 12/24/2015 01:32:02 GMT would translate to 6:32pm on the 23rd, Mountain Time. Any chance you live near the Rockies?

p.s. I just confirmed *the timestamps are GMT *by pulling the plug on my MoCA adapter and checking my Mini's network status.


----------



## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> See:
> 
> Here's where you can find the stats for your latest transfer on a Roamio (not sure where it's hiding on a BOLT):
> TiVo Central
> > Settings & Messages
> > Settings
> > Network
> > View Network Diagnostics
> > View transfer history​


On a Bolt:

Tivo Central
> Settings & Messages
> Network Settings
> View network diagnostics
> View transfer history​
You probably will look at "4. Outgoing TiVo box transfer" once you are on the Transfer History screen.


----------



## capecodtuc

krkaufman said:


> If I were forced to make a guess, I would say that the Mini is recording & reporting those times relative to GMT/UTC, so you'd need to subtract however many hours you're offset from GMT to translate the timestamps to local time.
> 
> e.g. 12/24/2015 01:32:02 GMT would translate to 6:32pm on the 23rd, Mountain Time. Any chance you live near the Rockies?.


Thanks for the suggestion. Of course - Using GMT makes so much sense - I should have thought of it as a possibility.

I live in Arizona, which is Mountain time during the winter. (We don't do Daylight savings, so we are the same as Pacific time during the summer.)

Nancy


----------



## capecodtuc

epstewart said:


> On a Bolt:
> 
> Tivo Central
> > Settings & Messages
> > Network Settings
> > View network diagnostics
> > View transfer history​
> You probably will look at "4. Outgoing TiVo box transfer" once you are on the Transfer History screen.


Thanks. Wouldn't you think that a guy on Tivo phone support would know that? He said there wasn't any way to see the speed.

At any rate, I just looked, and, strangely enough, even though I transferred around a dozen programs last night from the old Tivo to the Bolt, it said "none" for all of the categories. Perhaps it only holds the memory for a few hours? It was about 22 hours ago that I started, but it must have taken a few hours for it to finish all of them. Now that I know that the info is there, I'll look soon after a program is transferred.

I do have a fast computer (very recent Macbook Pro), but I have no ethernet port. If we start transferring many programs, we'll probably buy a Thunderbolt/ethernet adapter.

Any transfers will be much faster than what we had - it would take around an hour to transfer an hour program from our old Series 3 wirelessly to our computer.

Nancy


----------



## capecodtuc

krkaufman said:


> I like that the BOLT is now showing 630+ Mbps for both TX & RX; I didn't like that 463 with the amp in the setup. I was initially freaking-out on seeing that second set of numbers for the Mini, until I (eventually) remembered that it's a Mini and so is MoCA 1.1. 270+ Mbps is a good PHY rate for MoCA 1.1.
> 
> That said, the above is as expected on the MoCA front (though I am glad things went as expected). The BIG Question after removing the amplifier is going to be whether your BOLT is receiving a sufficiently strong TV signal, so that it can record & buffer Live TV without glitches.


The Bolt seems to be working fine, although we haven't had time to watch a lot of TV or our recorded programs. In watching the TV connected to the mini, I did see a couple of hesitations, and it seemed a little slow to load the screen when, for instance, I clicked on "shows going on now" (or whatever it's called). (This is on the line from the 3 way splitter to the master bedroom.) If it doesn't get any worse than this, it will be fine, but we will have to make that opinion for sure when we have more time to watch TV.

Nancy


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> The Bolt seems to be working fine, although we haven't had time to watch a lot of TV or our recorded programs. In watching the TV connected to the mini, I did see a couple of hesitations, and it seemed a little slow to load the screen when, for instance, I clicked on "shows going on now" (or whatever it's called). (This is on the line from the 3 way splitter to the master bedroom.) If it doesn't get any worse than this, it will be fine, but we will have to make that opinion for sure when we have more time to watch TV.
> 
> Nancy


I think it takes a bit longer for a Mini to grab a Live TV tuner than to fire-up a recording -- though I haven't timed it.


----------



## capecodtuc

I do have one question on a topic I don't have a very good understanding of: what is the TX Power Setting? I thought that it referred to range of the wireless signal. If so, then going from 3.0 to minus 14, for instance - does that just mean that my ethernet signal in the cables is just restricted because of the POE filter? Why did changing the splitters take it from 3.0 to -14? 

Nancy


----------



## krkaufman

capecodtuc said:


> I do have one question on a topic I don't have a very good understanding of: what is the TX Power Setting? I thought that it referred to range of the wireless signal. If so, then going from 3.0 to minus 14, for instance - does that just mean that my ethernet signal in the cables is just restricted because of the POE filter? Why did changing the splitters take it from 3.0 to -14?


I don't know. My guess is that you're using less power to transmit now, than you were before, not because of the change of splitters but because the amplifier was removed from your setup. I'm assuming the BOLT was having to use a lot more power to get a signal through the amplifier -- though I remain surprised it had any success.

edit: Did a bit more searching and came across the following...
_To further minimize interference to existing services, MoCA also features transmit power control (TPC). TPC reduces the MoCA transmit power by up to 30 dB. Reducing transmit power lowers the likelihood that the MoCA signal will cause interference to devices operating in other bands. _(link)​This seems to match-up with some testing I did recently, where a relatively simple connection between a Mini and MoCA adapter reported a -27 dBm TX power value, near the -30 dB max reduction mentioned above. -30 dB would be the best possible, then, I believe -- and 3dB might be the max power boost.


----------



## epstewart

capecodtuc said:


> Thanks. Wouldn't you think that a guy on Tivo phone support would know that? He said there wasn't any way to see the speed.
> 
> At any rate, I just looked, and, strangely enough, even though I transferred around a dozen programs last night from the old Tivo to the Bolt, it said "none" for all of the categories. Perhaps it only holds the memory for a few hours? It was about 22 hours ago that I started, but it must have taken a few hours for it to finish all of them. Now that I know that the info is there, I'll look soon after a program is transferred.
> 
> I do have a fast computer (very recent Macbook Pro), but I have no ethernet port. If we start transferring many programs, we'll probably buy a Thunderbolt/ethernet adapter.
> 
> Any transfers will be much faster than what we had - it would take around an hour to transfer an hour program from our old Series 3 wirelessly to our computer.
> 
> Nancy


I believe I told you wrong. For transfers from your TiVo HD to your Bolt, on the Bolt you need to look at "3. Incoming TiVo box transfer." I believe you'll see the statistics for the latest transfer no matter how long ago it took place ...

I'm under the impression, though, that the TiVo HD is so internally slow that it is more of a bottleneck than your MoCA network could ever be ...


----------



## Chris Gerhard

I bought 2 Actiontec MoCA adapters and a MoCA capable splitter and tried but it doesn't work for me. My typical OTA setup includes an antenna on the roof with a 4-way splitter with coax running to each room from the roof. I think I know why it doesn't work, I probably need a MoCA capable splitter on the roof and possibly a filter between the antenna and the splitter.

If that is correct, will this splitter work?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201375791133?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

And this filter?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191244054589?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

My Wi-Fi is working fine for what I am doing now but one step at a time I am trying to get ready for 4K streaming, thinking I will need wired connections at that point. I have purchased a 4K capable AVR but don't have a 4K display yet so I may not get up on the roof until spring since there is no hurry but at the rate I finish my projects, I need to start now.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Yes that splitter and filter should work fine, connecting the filter to the IN socket.

Are you sure the moca adapters were connected correctly?


----------



## Chris Gerhard

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yes that splitter and filter should work fine, connecting the filter to the IN socket.
> 
> Are you sure the moca adapters were connected correctly?


That part seemed pretty simple but I could have screwed it up.

Ethernet from router to MoCA adapter. Coax from antenna to roof splitter to adapter coax in, coax out to TiVo.

In the second room, coax in to adapter, coax out to TiVo and adapter Ethernet out to Ethernet in on TiVo. Before I disconnected it, I think the antenna coax signal was fine but nothing from Ethernet.

The splitter was used with a TiVo mini in a third room, coax in to splitter, coax out to TiVo Mini and TV. Again, nothing from the network to TiVo Mini coax in, just an error message when trying to connect to MoCA network.

I don't recall anything about the splitter on the roof, except that it works with my antenna distribution and has for years. My MoCA signal, if it exists at all, must be going up through the splitter on the roof to the antenna and out into the wild blue yonder is the only thing I could guess at. There are no antenna signal amplifiers and no other splitters in the house for the antenna distribution.


----------



## fcfc2

Chris Gerhard said:


> That part seemed pretty simple but I could have screwed it up.
> 
> Ethernet from router to MoCA adapter. Coax from antenna to roof splitter to adapter coax in, coax out to TiVo.
> 
> In the second room, coax in to adapter, coax out to TiVo and adapter Ethernet out to Ethernet in on TiVo. Before I disconnected it, I think the antenna coax signal was fine but nothing from Ethernet.
> 
> The splitter was used with a TiVo mini in a third room, coax in to splitter, coax out to TiVo Mini and TV. Again, nothing from the network to TiVo Mini coax in, just an error message when trying to connect to MoCA network.
> 
> I don't recall anything about the splitter on the roof, except that it works with my antenna distribution and has for years. My MoCA signal, if it exists at all, must be going up through the splitter on the roof to the antenna and out into the wild blue yonder is the only thing I could guess at. There are no antenna signal amplifiers and no other splitters in the house for the antenna distribution.


Hi,
If I read you correctly, you are trying to use MoCA and the coax out port on the adapters to feed your Tivos. This will not work as the out port blocks the MoCA signals. Use a 2 way splitter to feed one leg to the adapter and the other to your Tivo. Put a 75 Ohm F-type terminator on the open coax port.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> If I read you correctly, you are trying to use MoCA and the coax out port on the adapters to feed your Tivos. This will not work as the out port blocks the MoCA signals. Use a 2 way splitter to feed one leg to the adapter and the other to your Tivo. Put a 75 Ohm F-type terminator on the open coax port.


I am not using the coax out from any MoCA adapter as a MoCA connection, only to be used for the antenna feed. Ethernet from the adapter is used for the MoCA network connection. I may not be understanding what you mean or I may not understand anything about setting up a MoCA network or both.


----------



## epstewart

Chris Gerhard said:


> I am not using the coax out from any MoCA adapter as a MoCA connection, only to be used for the antenna feed. Ethernet from the adapter is used for the MoCA network connection. I may not be understanding what you mean or I may not understand anything about setting up a MoCA network or both.


What models are your two non-Mini TiVo boxes, the ones to which you are attaching the MoCA adapters?


----------



## Chris Gerhard

epstewart said:


> What models are your two non-Mini TiVo boxes, the ones to which you are attaching the MoCA adapters?


TiVo Premiere, connected by Ethernet from the MoCA adapter and the antenna input connected by coax for OTA.

Again I think it didn't work because of the switch on the roof, the only way the rooms can be connected are up through the roof switch.


----------



## snerd

Chris Gerhard said:


> T
> I don't recall anything about the splitter on the roof, except that it works with my antenna distribution and has for years. My MoCA signal, if it exists at all, must be going up through the splitter on the roof to the antenna and out into the wild blue yonder is the only thing I could guess at. There are no antenna signal amplifiers and no other splitters in the house for the antenna distribution.


You need to add a MoCA PoE filter attached to the input of that splitter. The PoE filter reflects the MoCA signals back down through all of the splitter ports so that MoCA signals remain in your house and don't reach the antenna.


----------



## snerd

Chris Gerhard said:


> T
> In the second room, coax in to adapter, coax out to TiVo and adapter Ethernet out to Ethernet in on TiVo. Before I disconnected it, I think the antenna coax signal was fine but nothing from Ethernet.


Please double-check the connections to the MoCA adapters. The coax ports on the MoCA adapters are *not* interchangeable. MoCA signals need to reach the "Coax In" port only, so the "Coax In" ports should connect to the coax from the wall. The "TV/STB Out" port can go to an older (non-MoCA capable) TiVo, or a set-top box, or a cable modem. If the TV/STB port isn't used, it should be capped with a 75-ohm termination.


----------



## snerd

Chris Gerhard said:


> I am not using the coax out from any MoCA adapter as a MoCA connection, only to be used for the antenna feed. Ethernet from the adapter is used for the MoCA network connection. I may not be understanding what you mean or I may not understand anything about setting up a MoCA network or both.


Your connections might be OK, except possibly a missing PoE filter.

Once everything is connected correctly, your TiVo needs to "phone home" so that it can find the Mini and vice-versa. It might require 2 or 3 forced connections from both the TiVo and the Mini, and perhaps a power-cycle on each.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

snerd said:


> You need to add a MoCA PoE filter attached to the input of that splitter. The PoE filter reflects the MoCA signals back down through all of the splitter ports so that MoCA signals remain in your house and don't reach the antenna.


Thanks, that is what I am going to do. Will order it today.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

snerd said:


> Please double-check the connections to the MoCA adapters. The coax ports on the MoCA adapters are *not* interchangeable. MoCA signals need to reach the "Coax In" port only, so the "Coax In" ports should connect to the coax from the wall. The "TV/STB Out" port can go to an older (non-MoCA capable) TiVo, or a set-top box, or a cable modem. If the TV/STB port isn't used, it should be capped with a 75-ohm termination.


I definitely have the coax in and out correct, probably wouldn't even get the OTA signal if I didn't but I am sure about that much in any event. I am going to use the coax out on both adapters, I still need the OTA signal in each room.

I think I will buy a new switch for the roof without trying to use the old switch with the POE filter.


----------



## snerd

Chris Gerhard said:


> I definitely have the coax in and out correct, probably wouldn't even get the OTA signal if I didn't but I am sure about that much in any event. I am going to use the coax out on both adapters, I still need the OTA signal in each room.
> 
> I think I will buy a new switch for the roof without trying to use the old switch with the POE filter.


Actually, the OTA signals will pass both ways through a MoCA adapter without any problem. The trick is making sure that the MoCA signals all get to where they need to be.


----------



## epstewart

Chris Gerhard said:


> TiVo Premiere, connected by Ethernet from the MoCA adapter and the antenna input connected by coax for OTA.
> 
> Again I think it didn't work because of the switch on the roof, the only way the rooms can be connected are up through the roof switch.


You may be right about the roof splitter being the issue, but here are some other thoughts from one whose mind is a bit addled from too much celebrating and too little sleep.

It might be worthwhile for you to check the MoCA details in Network Status on your Mini. You should see data for all your MoCA nodes there. You'd like to see no indication of packets received in error, and you'd like to see PHY rates that should be in the mid-200s, I believe: how many Mbps for data transmitted, or TX, and received, or RX. These PHY rates overstate how fast actual data is sent or received, by the way, but are useful in diagnosing problems. Unfortunately, I don't believe you can see similar MoCA data in Network Status on your Premieres, which think they are using Ethernet, not MoCA.

Your signature indicates you also have a Roamio. I guess it's a basic, 4-tuner Roamio. It's not hooked to your MoCA network via an adapter right now, I gather. As an experiment, you might try removing the MoCA adapters from your Premieres, hooking the coax lead-ins back directly to those units. Then hook one of the adapters to the Roamio and see whether it can connect with the Mini.

Also, how do your TiVo units and your MoCA network get online, if you stop using Wi-Fi? I guess you don't have a cable modem. Nor do you have coax into your router, right? So how does the router connect to the Internet? I can't quite envision how you are satisfying the requirement that a TiVo DVR-to-Mini hookup via MoCA requires that there be a way for the DVR to get online. Typically, the MoCA-enabled DVR has an Ethernet cable running to the router, and that DVR "creates" a MoCA network, or else the user connects a MoCA adapter to the router via Ethernet and to the associated cable modem via coax. You don't seem to have either of those two options available, so it could be that your problem is that none of your TiVos satisfies the requirement.

Edit: Here is a thread that discusses that requirement:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=535593


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The setup sounds fine and could be the main splitter. You seemed to know what you were doing but wanted to make sure before purchases were made.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

epstewart said:


> You may be right about the roof splitter being the issue, but here are some other thoughts from one whose mind is a bit addled from too much celebrating and too little sleep.
> 
> It might be worthwhile for you to check the MoCA details in Network Status on your Mini. You should see data for all your MoCA nodes there. You'd like to see no indication of packets received in error, and you'd like to see PHY rates that should be in the mid-200s, I believe: how many Mbps for data transmitted, or TX, and received, or RX. These PHY rates overstate how fast actual data is sent or received, by the way, but are useful in diagnosing problems. Unfortunately, I don't believe you can see similar MoCA data in Network Status on your Premieres, which think they are using Ethernet, not MoCA.
> 
> Your signature indicates you also have a Roamio. I guess it's a basic, 4-tuner Roamio. It's not hooked to your MoCA network via an adapter right now, I gather. As an experiment, you might try removing the MoCA adapters from your Premieres, hooking the coax lead-ins back directly to those units. Then hook one of the adapters to the Roamio and see whether it can connect with the Mini.
> 
> Also, how do your TiVo units and your MoCA network get online, if you stop using Wi-Fi? I guess you don't have a cable modem. Nor do you have coax into your router, right? So how does the router connect to the Internet? I can't quite envision how you are satisfying the requirement that a TiVo DVR-to-Mini hookup via MoCA requires that there be a way for the DVR to get online. Typically, the MoCA-enabled DVR has an Ethernet cable running to the router, and that DVR "creates" a MoCA network, or else the user connects a MoCA adapter to the router via Ethernet and to the associated cable modem via coax. You don't seem to have either of those two options available, so it could be that your problem is that none of your TiVos satisfies the requirement.
> 
> Edit: Here is a thread that discusses that requirement:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=535593


Thanks for the thoughtful replay, not New Year's Eve addled at all. Yes, I have been using Wi-Fi for all but the TiVo in the same room with the router, it is Ethernet. I do have a cable modem, an Arris DOCSIS 3.0 and a Netgear router. Wi-Fi has been working fine for everything, I am early in the process of getting ready for my planned 4K display and 4K Blu-ray player for streaming and have assumed wired will be needed at that time.

I also have purchased a TiVo Mini but since I haven't yet sold the TiVoHD that I plan to remove, I am not yet using it. I did try to test it with my non-working MoCA network as I mentioned. My hope is TiVo will work out the details to get the TiVoHD working for Comcast MPEG-4 and I will be able to change my Craigslist ad to indicate it will work with Comcast or OTA. It might sell easier at a price that makes selling it worth the effort.

I have purchased a new switch and POE filter which I will install soon after they arrive and try again but have the helpful posts here to refer to if it doesn't work.


----------



## epstewart

Chris Gerhard said:


> Thanks for the thoughtful replay, not New Year's Eve addled at all. Yes, I have been using Wi-Fi for all but the TiVo in the same room with the router, it is Ethernet. I do have a cable modem, an Arris DOCSIS 3.0 and a Netgear router. Wi-Fi has been working fine for everything, I am early in the process of getting ready for my planned 4K display and 4K Blu-ray player for streaming and have assumed wired will be needed at that time.
> 
> I also have purchased a TiVo Mini but since I haven't yet sold the TiVoHD that I plan to remove, I am not yet using it. I did try to test it with my non-working MoCA network as I mentioned. My hope is TiVo will work out the details to get the TiVoHD working for Comcast MPEG-4 and I will be able to change my Craigslist ad to indicate it will work with Comcast or OTA. It might sell easier at a price that makes selling it worth the effort.
> 
> I have purchased a new switch and POE filter which I will install soon after they arrive and try again but have the helpful posts here to refer to if it doesn't work.


Thinking out loud here, so correct me if I am wrong. The TiVo in the same room as the router is your Roamio, I'm guessing. It's a 4-tuner Roamio, not a Plus or Pro. I imagine you have a coaxial splitter in that room, probably 2-way, so you are able to run coax to the cable modem and the Roamio.

You said in your first post that what you have installed so far, MoCA-wise, is "not working," and I take that to mean ... what? You as yet have no Mini up and running, so I guess it means that the TiVo boxes you already have in service can't get online unless you back off and go back to using Wi-Fi networking.

Why don't you try this: move one MoCA adapter from where you have it now, on what I'll call TiVo 1, to the room with the router, the modem, and the Roamio.

Take the coax input from the Roamio and input it to the adapter, then use a short coax cable from the adapter to the Roamio. Run Ethernet from the adapter to a LAN port on the router, and another Ethernet cable (already in place now?) from the WAN port on the router to the cable modem.

This MoCA adapter will serve to get your entire MoCA network online via its Ethernet connection to your router and the router's Ethernet connection to your modem,

The other MoCA adapter you have now can stay in place on what I'll call TiVo 2, but the TiVo that you remove a MoCA adapter from (TiVo 1) will:


Go back, for now, to having a direct coaxial feed
Go back, for now, to using Wi-Fi to get online
Go back, for now, to not being on your MoCA network

Next, check to see whether your Roamio can stream recordings to/from the TiVo 2. Given that neither of these TiVos is using Wi-Fi at that point, streaming success would indicate MoCA is working. But if streaming is not yet working, you could go ahead and do this:

Hook up your Mini as you originally intended. You would tell it to use MoCA as its way to get on the network. At that point, you would expect it to be able to stream live TV and recordings from the Roamio via MoCA ... even though, of course, the Roamio "thinks" it's on the network via Ethernet. Network Status on the Mini would give you information about how well your MoCA network is performing.

If you try any of these things, you can post your results back here. Good luck!

*Edit:* After a nap. I woke up with a way to put this more succinctly. One of your MoCA adapters has to be bridged to your router via Ethernet. I'm attaching a diagram to the next post in the thread.


----------



## epstewart

Chris Gerhard,

Here is a diagram that I hope will help you. The basic idea is that in your setup there has to be one MoCA adapter that is bridged via Ethernet to the router. Your router is in the same room as a Roamio (Basic) to which the MoCA adapter also has to be bridged via Ethernet.

That means an Ethernet switch is necessary. In the diagram, Ethernet cables run:


from the MoCA adapter to the switch
from the switch to the Roamio
from the switch to a LAN port on the router
from the WAN port on the router to the cable modem
As I understand it, you now have two MoCA adapters, each connected to a TiVo other than the Roamio. Neither adapter is Ethernet-bridged to the router. That won't work to get a MoCA network going. (And it won't help for you to install your Mini now, either. You still have to bridge one MoCA adapter to the router via Ethernet.)

Here is a link to a switch I bought from Amazon. I can recommend it. There are others that work well.

If following the diagram gets things going for you MoCA-wise, then you would probably need to buy (in addition to the switch) a third MoCA adapter, as long as you have a total of 3 TiVo DVRs, including the Roamio, that aren't MoCA-ready and that you want to get on your MoCA network. Of course, the Mini won't need an adapter ...

(The rule that the router needs to be Ethernet-bridged to the MoCA network, either to a MoCA adapter or to a MoCA-ready TiVo that "creates" the MoCA network, does not apply if the router is itself MoCA-ready and is actually a "gateway" or router/modem "combo." Nor does it apply if the cable modem is itself MoCA-ready. But most users are not in either of those 2 situations.)


----------



## Chris Gerhard

epstewart said:


> Chris Gerhard,
> 
> Here is a diagram that I hope will help you. The basic idea is that in your setup there has to be one MoCA adapter that is bridged via Ethernet to the router. Your router is in the same room as a Roamio (Basic) to which the MoCA adapter also has to be bridged via Ethernet.
> 
> That means an Ethernet switch is necessary. In the diagram, Ethernet cables run:
> 
> 
> from the MoCA adapter to the switch
> from the switch to the Roamio
> from the switch to a LAN port on the router
> from the WAN port on the router to the cable modem
> As I understand it, you now have two MoCA adapters, each connected to a TiVo other than the Roamio. Neither adapter is Ethernet-bridged to the router. That won't work to get a MoCA network going. (And it won't help for you to install your Mini now, either. You still have to bridge one MoCA adapter to the router via Ethernet.)
> 
> Here is a link to a switch I bought from Amazon. I can recommend it. There are others that work well.
> 
> If following the diagram gets things going for you MoCA-wise, then you would probably need to buy (in addition to the switch) a third MoCA adapter, as long as you have a total of 3 TiVo DVRs, including the Roamio, that aren't MoCA-ready and that you want to get on your MoCA network. Of course, the Mini won't need an adapter ...
> 
> (The rule that the router needs to be Ethernet-bridged to the MoCA network, either to a MoCA adapter or to a MoCA-ready TiVo that "creates" the MoCA network, does not apply if the router is itself MoCA-ready and is actually a "gateway" or router/modem "combo." Nor does it apply if the cable modem is itself MoCA-ready. But most users are not in either of those 2 situations.)


Thanks, I understand. I did purchase a TiVo Mini which will be used in the third room once I get my MoCA network set up. My router is not MoCA ready. I have a gigabit Ethernet switch recently purchased as well.

This MoCA network has turned out to be expensive, hopefully it will be worth it.


----------



## epstewart

Chris Gerhard said:


> Thanks, I understand. I did purchase a TiVo Mini which will be used in the third room once I get my MoCA network set up. My router is not MoCA ready. I have a gigabit Ethernet switch recently purchased as well.
> 
> This MoCA network has turned out to be expensive, hopefully it will be worth it.


You're quite welcome. If you already have a Gigabit Ethernet switch on hand and enough Ethernet cables, you should be able to implement the setup in my diagram. That might be enough to get your MoCA network going, and then you might be able to install and use the Mini. There's no guarantee that all would work well, depending on whether you really need a different 4-way splitter on your roof. But with the Mini at least present on the network, its Network Status screen would perhaps tell you how the various MoCA nodes on your network are doing.

And, yes, there's a lot of expense. If you include the combined cost of the MoCA adapters, the Ethernet switch, and all the Ethernet cables  not to mention the Mini itself and any coaxial splitters, cables, filters etc. that you need  you're talking real money.


----------



## mdavej

You can do a DECA system for a fraction of the cost of Moca, at about $7 per node versus $50 per node for Moca. If I had such constraints, I'd definitely go with DECA.


----------



## epstewart

Chris Gerhard said:


> TiVo Premiere, connected by Ethernet from the MoCA adapter and the antenna input connected by coax for OTA.


Chris,

Another thing is that, of the 3 TiVo DVRs you have right now, only the Roamio can "feed" live TV or recordings to your Mini. That's because only TiVos with at least 4 tuners can do so. Your Premiere has just 2 tuners, as does your TiVo HD. The Mini "borrows" a tuner from whatever DVR is feeding it, so a 2-tuner TiVo that is currently being watched live on its own TV could not record from another channel and feed the Mini.

I know you're planning to sell the TiVo HD, but do you plan to replace it (and/or the Premiere) with a 4- or 6-tuner TiVo? If not, then your Roamio is the only DVR you have that can "host" the Mini.


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## epstewart

mdavej said:


> You can do a DECA system for a fraction of the cost of Moca, at about $7 per node versus $50 per node for Moca. If I had such constraints, I'd definitely go with DECA.


I know nothing about DECA, but this thread talks about it:

Repurposing a DirecTV DECA Adapter for MOCA?


----------



## RMSko

Hi everyone. I'm hoping for some help here. I have Comcast Xfinity and am about to swap out my two Comcast boxes for a TiVo Bolt and TiVo mini. My current setup is:

- A cable entry box outside my house and then the line is split somewhere (I'm not able to find where it's split) to the two rooms that are active. 
- In my living room, I have a coax line which is currently split with one line going to a cable modem (SB6120), which is then connected to a Netgear router and the other line going to my Xfinity DVR box. I would like to install the Bolt in this room and would be able to connect the Bolt to the router via Ethernet. 

- In my den I have a second Xfinity DVR and would like to replace this with my mini, but I will NOT be able to connect it via Ethernet. 

Am I right that I can use this setup as long as I use MoCA. If so, will I just need a MoCA filter and where does the filter need to go?

Any thoughts on this setup would be really appreciated.


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## snerd

epstewart said:


> Chris,
> 
> Another thing is that, of the 3 TiVo DVRs you have right now, only the Roamio can "feed" live TV or recordings to your Mini. That's because only TiVos with at least 4 tuners can do so. Your Premiere has just 2 tuners, as does your TiVo HD. The Mini "borrows" a tuner from whatever DVR is feeding it, so a 2-tuner TiVo that is currently being watched live on its own TV could not record from another channel and feed the Mini.
> 
> I know you're planning to sell the TiVo HD, but do you plan to replace it (and/or the Premiere) with a 4- or 6-tuner TiVo? If not, then your Roamio is the only DVR you have that can "host" the Mini.


While it is true that a Premiere/HD can't be the host for a Mini, the Mini *can* access recordings through the "My Shows" device icon for any TiVo that has multi-room capabilities.


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## snerd

RMSko said:


> Am I right that I can use this setup as long as I use MoCA. If so, will I just need a MoCA filter and where does the filter need to go?


Your setup should work just fine. Ideally, the MoCA PoE filter would be placed on the input of the "main" splitter, but if you can't locate it then you can put in the cable entry box. If you don't have access to open that box, then just try the MoCA without the PoE filter. Some MoCA systems work fine without a PoE filter (my brother doesn't use one), but using one improves MoCA signal strength and reduces the chance of having problems when streaming video. It also helps keep your nosy NSA/CIA neighbors off your LAN.


----------



## RMSko

snerd said:


> Your setup should work just fine. Ideally, the MoCA PoE filter would be placed on the input of the "main" splitter, but if you can't locate it then you can put in the cable entry box. If you don't have access to open that box, then just try the MoCA without the PoE filter. Some MoCA systems work fine without a PoE filter (my brother doesn't use one), but using one improves MoCA signal strength and reduces the chance of having problems when streaming video. It also helps keep your nosy NSA/CIA neighbors off your LAN.


This is very helpful, thanks. I don't know a lot about MoCA, but am I right that Comcast Xfinity uses MoCA? I've been using a multi-room DVR and the second box acts like a TiVo mini in that it is a "slave" and is feeding off of the main XfinityDVR box and so to my relatively ignorant thinking I would think that all I need to do is connect the coax to the MoCA input on the mini, but maybe I'm missing something?

BTW - if This didn't work, could I reverse the two boxes and have the mini use Ethernet and have the Bolt connect via WiFi and eliminate the need for MoCA?


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## mdavej

No


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> While it is true that a Premiere/HD can't be the host for a Mini, the Mini *can* access recordings through the "My Shows" device icon for any TiVo that has multi-room capabilities.


Thanks. That's an important clarification. I wasn't sure about this myself and couldn't test it, as I don't have a TiVo DVR that lacks 4 tuners.


----------



## epstewart

RMSko said:


> This is very helpful, thanks. I don't know a lot about MoCA, but am I right that Comcast Xfinity uses MoCA? I've been using a multi-room DVR and the second box acts like a TiVo mini in that it is a "slave" and is feeding off of the main XfinityDVR box and so to my relatively ignorant thinking I would think that all I need to do is connect the coax to the MoCA input on the mini, but maybe I'm missing something?
> 
> BTW - if This didn't work, could I reverse the two boxes and have the mini use Ethernet and have the Bolt connect via WiFi and eliminate the need for MoCA?


I believe Xfinity uses MoCA, but I have no personal experience to back that up.

No, you can't have the Bolt connect via Wi-Fi if you are using MoCA.

All you have to do with respect to the Mini is connect coax to it and set it up in Guided Setup to connect using MoCA. You would, however, need to wait until you get the Bolt set up before you set up the Mini.

Connecting the Bolt is a little more complicated. Normally, it has to have an Ethernet connection to one of your router's LAN inputs. That connection can be by a single (CAT5 or CAT6) cable. Or it can be less direct, as when you put an Ethernet switch between the Bolt and the router with other Ethernet devices also connected to the switch. If you use either of those two Ethernet Bolt-router connection methods, you will have to set up the Bolt to "create a MoCA network."

An exception would be if your Netgear router is itself MoCA-capable. It's probably not. If it were, it would typically also incorporate a cable modem and be called a "gateway" or "combo" router/modem. You mentioned your SB6120 modem, so your router is almost certainly not MoCA-capable, and neither is the SB6120. So I would think this exception does not apply to you.

Another exception: If it's inconvenient for you to run Ethernet from your Bolt to your router, you could get a MoCA network adapter and connect it to your router via a (short) Ethernet cable and to your modem via coax.

I'm attaching a diagram that might help. You can ignore the "Room B" part of it. Rooms A, C, and D apply to your situation. In Room D, there's a MoCA adapter whose Ethernet output connects to a LAN port on the router. The other Ethernet cable in Room D runs from the router's WAN port to the cable modem. The adapter receives coax input from your wall outlet and sends on the signal to your modem via a short coax cable. (Some adapters don't have a coax output, in which case you would interpose a 2-way splitter that would accept input from your wall outlet and would send output to both the adapter and the modem.)

An example of a MoCA adapter that has both coax input and coax output is the Actiontec ECB2500C.

If you connect a MoCA adapter to your router and cable modem in the way I described, you won't connect the Bolt to the router. Since the adapter would itself "create" your MoCA network, you would simply set up the Bolt to connect using MoCA. The Bolt would not be set up to "create" the MoCA network.

You're probably wondering at this point why you were able to use whole-home cable TV with Xfinity without doing anything as fancy as what I'm describing. Sorry, but I can't answer that ...

Edit: I should have mentioned that you will need to put a CableCARD in the Bolt and get Comcast to "pair" it so that it will tune your channels ...


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## BigJimOutlaw

RMSko said:


> Hi everyone. I'm hoping for some help here. I have Comcast Xfinity and am about to swap out my two Comcast boxes for a TiVo Bolt and TiVo mini. My current setup is:
> 
> - A cable entry box outside my house and then the line is split somewhere (I'm not able to find where it's split) to the two rooms that are active.
> - In my living room, I have a coax line which is currently split with one line going to a cable modem (SB6120), which is then connected to a Netgear router and the other line going to my Xfinity DVR box. I would like to install the Bolt in this room and would be able to connect the Bolt to the router via Ethernet.
> 
> - In my den I have a second Xfinity DVR and would like to replace this with my mini, but I will NOT be able to connect it via Ethernet.
> 
> Am I right that I can use this setup as long as I use MoCA. If so, will I just need a MoCA filter and where does the filter need to go?
> 
> Any thoughts on this setup would be really appreciated.


You have everything under control.

Connect the Bolt in the living room by ethernet. After setup, go into settings and select "Use this DVR to create a moca network".

It may take time for the Bolt and Mini to fully activate so that they can see each other. Forcing some extra service connections and a reboot on the Bolt can help this along.

Once properly activated, the Den Mini will be ready for setup using the moca over coax.

To answer the other question, the Bolt will need that ethernet connection to create the moca network. The alternative to the Bolt creating the network is to get a moca adapter. (option 2 in the OP.)


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## calitivo

Finally got MoCA up and running after a DOA adapter and tivo sending the replacement slowly. Need some help on next steps. Currently...

Living Room: Coax to tuning adapter to Roamio Plus
Bedroom: Coax split to..
1) MoCA adapter --> Surfboard modem --> Belkin router which has ethernet inputs from Blu Ray player, Ooma, Mini and a 20 foot ethernet run to 2nd bedroom where computer is
2) Mini

Now want to move Modem Router and Ooma to 2nd bedroom. I still want to have ethernet access for streaming purposes on the BR player. Will using an ethernet splitter still keep the Mini working. Or should I get a "switch". Unfamiliar with how this works in a MoCa environment. The Moca adapter moves to the 2nd bedroom with the modem and router right? 

Picture quality on the Mini is subpar. Currently using an old 1000 splitter and haven't installed PoE filter. Step 1 was getting the Mini back alive. I think I won't need a splitter going forward. Where is best to install PoE filter? There is no main coax entry. Living room had coax but TWC had to drill new runs in both bedrooms and luckily the Mini can see the Plus. Or should I not use it if it works without it?


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## HarperVision

calitivo said:


> Finally got MoCA up and running after a DOA adapter and tivo sending the replacement slowly. Need some help on next steps. Currently...
> 
> *Living Room: Coax to tuning adapter to Roamio Plus*
> Bedroom: Coax split to..
> 1) MoCA adapter --> Surfboard modem --> Belkin router which has ethernet inputs from Blu Ray player, Ooma, Mini and a 20 foot ethernet run to 2nd bedroom where computer is
> 2) Mini
> 
> Now want to move Modem Router and Ooma to 2nd bedroom. I still want to have ethernet access for streaming purposes on the BR player. Will using an ethernet splitter still keep the Mini working. Or should I get a "switch". Unfamiliar with how this works in a MoCa environment. The Moca adapter moves to the 2nd bedroom with the modem and router right?
> 
> Picture quality on the Mini is subpar. Currently using an old 1000 splitter and haven't installed PoE filter. Step 1 was getting the Mini back alive. I think I won't need a splitter going forward. Where is best to install PoE filter? There is no main coax entry. Living room had coax but TWC had to drill new runs in both bedrooms and luckily the Mini can see the Plus. Or should I not use it if it works without it?


The bolded and highlighted in *RED* area above in your quote is your issue. MoCA won't pass through the Tuning Adapters. You need to use a 2 way splitter and send one leg to the Roamio and the other to the TA.

Not sure why you say mini PQ is "subpar"? I find it almost indistinguishable from the main TiVo. You must not have full or good bandwidth on your network or something.


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## epstewart

calitivo said:


> Finally got MoCA up and running after a DOA adapter and tivo sending the replacement slowly. Need some help on next steps. Currently...
> 
> Living Room: Coax to tuning adapter to Roamio Plus
> Bedroom: Coax split to..
> 1) MoCA adapter --> Surfboard modem --> Belkin router which has ethernet inputs from Blu Ray player, Ooma, Mini and a 20 foot ethernet run to 2nd bedroom where computer is
> 2) Mini
> 
> Now want to move Modem Router and Ooma to 2nd bedroom. I still want to have ethernet access for streaming purposes on the BR player. Will using an ethernet splitter still keep the Mini working. Or should I get a "switch". Unfamiliar with how this works in a MoCa environment. The Moca adapter moves to the 2nd bedroom with the modem and router right?
> 
> Picture quality on the Mini is subpar. Currently using an old 1000 splitter and haven't installed PoE filter. Step 1 was getting the Mini back alive. I think I won't need a splitter going forward. Where is best to install PoE filter? There is no main coax entry. Living room had coax but TWC had to drill new runs in both bedrooms and luckily the Mini can see the Plus. Or should I not use it if it works without it?


You raise a number of questions. If you move all that stuff to the second bedroom, yes, the MoCA adapter would go there, too. That adapter would "create" your MoCA network.

The Mini would stay in the first bedroom and continue to be set up as simply connecting to your MoCA network. Looks like you'd no longer need the coax splitter in that bedroom. You mention possibly using an "Ethernet splitter," but I don't know what that is. Do you mean a hub? In general, a switch is better and is today quite cheap. I am currently unsure whether the Mini is able to bridge Ethernet to your Blu-Ray player in that room, which might be all you need, anyway. I'll check and get back to you.

As HarperVision said, you need a coax splitter for your tuning adapter/Roamio.

If the Mini PQ is subpar, try replacing the old 1000 MHz splitter with one rated for 1675 MHz.

I believe your Surfboard probably is a modem that contains its own POE filter, and your tuning adapter won't pass MoCA frequencies. Every other device you have attached to coax is a legitimate node on your MoCA network. You may not need to install a POE filter at all.

If changing the splitter doesn't fix the subpar Mini PQ, please come back and ask for more help ...

Edit: After further checking, I learned that the Mini won't work as a MoCA-to-Ethernet bridge to your Blu-ray player. So you'd seem to need to use your MoCA adapter for that purpose in the first bedroom. If you did that, you could also put an Ethernet switch in that bedroom as well, and run Ethernet cable to the router that you will have moved to the other bedroom. No MoCA adapter would be needed in the second bedroom. The router-connected adapter in the first bedroom would be able to "create" your MoCA network, which your Roamio Plus and Mini could then both join.


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## Chris Gerhard

I received my new MoCA splitter and MoCA filter yesterday, today before dawn I got up on the roof to beat the rain and installed both. I have a MoCA network that works now but it sure isn't very fast. Speedtest results for a laptop with my Comcast 75Mbps internet service:

Ethernet from router to laptop 80Mbps
Wi-Fi built-in laptop 50Mbps
MoCA to laptop 15Mbps

I can't think of anything to troubleshoot, the router is Netgear gigabit N900 WNDR4500. The modem is an Arris Docsis 3.0. Maybe the speed will magically get better in a day or so or maybe my cabling with 4 cables from the roof to various rooms, must be a few hundred feet I would guess, won't do any better. As far as I know, there are no splitters or filters anywhere in the house, straight cable from splitter to each room and the antenna to splitter has the new MoCA filter before the switch.


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## snerd

What exactly is the device that you describe as a "switch" rather than a splitter?

It it is an amplifier, it may be interfering with MoCA signals.


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## Chris Gerhard

snerd said:


> What exactly is the device that you describe as a "switch" rather than a splitter?
> 
> It it is an amplifier, it may be interfering with MoCA signals.


No, I was switching between calling my splitter a switch or a splitter, only have the 4x splitter.


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## epstewart

Chris Gerhard said:


> I received my new MoCA splitter and MoCA filter yesterday, today before dawn I got up on the roof to beat the rain and installed both. I have a MoCA network that works now but it sure isn't very fast. Speedtest results for a laptop with my Comcast 75Mbps internet service:
> 
> Ethernet from router to laptop 80Mbps
> Wi-Fi built-in laptop 50Mbps
> MoCA to laptop 15Mbps
> 
> I can't think of anything to troubleshoot, the router is Netgear gigabit N900 WNDR4500. The modem is an Arris Docsis 3.0. Maybe the speed will magically get better in a day or so or maybe my cabling with 4 cables from the roof to various rooms, must be a few hundred feet I would guess, won't do any better. As far as I know, there are no splitters or filters anywhere in the house, straight cable from splitter to each room and the antenna to splitter has the new MoCA filter before the switch.


Did you hook your laptop into your MoCA network to run the speed test? Does it have a coax input??? That's a new one on me ...

Could you describe your network again in full? I've lost track. Do you have your Mini installed at this point? I'm wondering whether you could look at the Mini's Network Status statistics for all your MoCA nodes and see whether the speeds are OK.


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## Chris Gerhard

epstewart said:


> Did you hook your laptop into your MoCA network to run the speed test? Does it have a coax input??? That's a new one on me ...
> 
> Could you describe your network again in full? I've lost track. Do you have your Mini installed at this point? I'm wondering whether you could look at the Mini's Network Status statistics for all your MoCA nodes and see whether the speeds are OK.


No, I connected the Ethernet cable from MoCA adapter to the laptop to run the test. No Mini installed. I have 2 Actiontec ECB2500 adapters.

Cable modem connected to gigabit router by Ethernet, Ethernet from gigabit router to MoCA adapter which has OTA coax in and out to TiVo Roamio Basic. That Roamio is connected by Ethernet direct from same router. Second room with second MoCA adapter coax in and out to TiVo Premiere, I will use the MoCA Ethernet connection for that internet access. That is the connection I used for the laptop speed test.

On the roof, antenna to Holland POE MoCA filter connected to Holland MoCA 4x splitter with cables running to various rooms in house. OTA signals from both MoCA adapters seems fine.

You may recall I tried to set this up using no POE filter and an antenna splitter on the roof, I couldn't get a MoCA network at all and I don't think I could even get the coax light on adapters to light up. Everything connected the same way except the splitter swap and POE filter between antenna and splitter.

I can connect the Mini and look at whatever but I have no idea what I would be looking for. I did install the Actiontec configuration software on the laptop but didn't figure out how to use it.


----------



## epstewart

Chris Gerhard said:


> No, I connected the Ethernet cable from MoCA adapter to the laptop to run the test. No Mini installed. I have 2 Actiontec ECB2500 adapters.
> 
> Cable modem connected to gigabit router by Ethernet, Ethernet from gigabit router to MoCA adapter which has OTA coax in and out to TiVo Roamio Basic. That Roamio is connected by Ethernet direct from same router. Second room with second MoCA adapter coax in and out to TiVo Premiere, I will use the MoCA Ethernet connection for that internet access. That is the connection I used for the laptop speed test.
> 
> On the roof, antenna to Holland POE MoCA filter connected to Holland MoCA 4x splitter with cables running to various rooms in house. OTA signals from both MoCA adapters seems fine.
> 
> You may recall I tried to set this up using no POE filter and an antenna splitter on the roof, I couldn't get a MoCA network at all and I don't think I could even get the coax light on adapters to light up. Everything connected the same way except the splitter swap and POE filter between antenna and splitter.
> 
> I can connect the Mini and look at whatever but I have no idea what I would be looking for. I did install the Actiontec configuration software on the laptop but didn't figure out how to use it.


I don't think you have the hookup to the Roamio right at this point. See the diagram I attached to Post #1431. The Ethernet output of the MoCA adapter has to connect to both the Roamio and your router, which means you will need to use an Ethernet switch. Look closely at that diagram, and you'll see what I mean. An Ethernet cable out of the adapter goes to the switch. Another Ethernet cable runs from the switch to the Roamio. Yet another Ethernet cable runs from the switch to a LAN port on the router.

Anyway: You've described two of the four feeds of your coax hookup coming out of the 4-way splitter. One feed goes to a MoCA adapter and the Roamio. One feed goes to another MoCA adapter and the Premiere. Presumably, after you install the Mini, a third feed will go to it. What is the fourth feed hooked up to, if anything? And, since the Mini is not hooked up right now, is that third feed not hooked up to anything at this point? I ask because it is advisable to put a coaxial terminator such as these on any open or unused coax outlet. That way, signal strength is not dissipated.

BTW, I'm concerned about the total length of the coaxial connections between your various devices. You mentioned that they were "a few hundred feet." This guide for MoCA installers says (p. 14):



> Make sure your cable runs are within MoCA technology length limits. The 300-foot (60 meter) maximum reach of MoCA technology is generally not a problem ... Installers who work with larger buildings often segment service by wings to keep cable runs within the 300-foot length.


I'd like you to go ahead and install the Mini, please. Then check out this MoCA troubleshooting guide. Scroll down to "Check the PHY rates on the MoCA-enabled TiVo DVR." In this case, you will look at Network Status on your Mini. You will see the so-called PHY rates for TX (transmitting) and RX (receiving) for each node on your MoCA network. The troubleshooting guide will tell you what PHY rates to shoot for. If you would, please report back to this thread and give the PHY rates and all the other MoCA-related info that your Mini's Network Status screen provides.

Once you set up the Ethernet connections to the Roamio and the router per the diagram I mentioned earlier and have your Mini up and running, you should be able to stream video (live TV or recordings) from your Roamio to the Mini. If they stream OK, you can breathe easier.

You can also test your MoCA network speed by pinging each MoCA node's IP address from your laptop or other computer when that computer is Ethernet-connected to a LAN port on your router. Here is a guide to doing that. When using my iMac I ping my Bolt (I do it in the Terminal app) I see:



> Erics-iMac:~ eric$ *ping -c 10 192.168.1.14*
> PING 192.168.1.14 (192.168.1.14): 56 data bytes
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.14: icmp_seq=0 ttl=64 time=5.996 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.14: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=6.807 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.14: icmp_seq=2 ttl=64 time=3.925 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.14: icmp_seq=3 ttl=64 time=7.698 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.14: icmp_seq=4 ttl=64 time=6.855 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.14: icmp_seq=5 ttl=64 time=3.760 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.14: icmp_seq=6 ttl=64 time=6.083 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.14: icmp_seq=7 ttl=64 time=3.914 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.14: icmp_seq=8 ttl=64 time=5.285 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.14: icmp_seq=9 ttl=64 time=4.905 ms
> 
> --- 192.168.1.14 ping statistics ---
> 10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
> round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 3.760/*5.523*/7.698/1.318 ms


Note that I have specified a ping command, *ping -c 10 192.168.1.14*, that uses *-c 10* to constrain the number of pings to 10. If you don't constrain the number, the pinging will continue until you type control-C.

My average ping response time is in boldface above: *5.523 ms*. I imagine your MoCA nodes' ping times ought to be roughly the same.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

Wow, thanks for the detailed response. I will connect the Mini and check the readings tomorrow, with the help you have offered, I should be able to make sense of it or at least be able to post the needed information. I do not understand the reason the Base Roamio which uses an Ethernet connection from the router must have Ethernet from MoCA. My limited understanding of how this works sure made me think my connection there should be fine. If it wasn't, wouldn't I be back to my old situation of no MoCA network, rather than one with slower than expected speeds? 

I think the simple answer is my MoCA speed isn't good because the coax run throughout the house is too long. All cables from the roof are used for OTA reception in the house, 3 TiVos and a TV, but I can now disconnect 1 cable and live with 3 connections, then I assume terminate the unused output on the splitter. I do plan to use the TiVo Mini upstairs, replace a TiVoHD after I get the recordings watched or transferred. As far as how much coax is running through the house, I will try to come up with a better estimate.


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## epstewart

Chris Gerhard said:


> Wow, thanks for the detailed response. I will connect the Mini and check the readings tomorrow, with the help you have offered, I should be able to make sense of it or at least be able to post the needed information. I do not understand the reason the Base Roamio which uses an Ethernet connection from the router must have Ethernet from MoCA. My limited understanding of how this works sure made me think my connection there should be fine. If it wasn't, wouldn't I be back to my old situation of no MoCA network, rather than one with slower than expected speeds?
> 
> I think the simple answer is my MoCA speed isn't good because the coax run throughout the house is too long. All cables from the roof are used for OTA reception in the house, 3 TiVos and a TV, but I can now disconnect 1 cable and live with 3 connections, then I assume terminate the unused output on the splitter. I do plan to use the TiVo Mini upstairs, replace a TiVoHD after I get the recordings watched or transferred. As far as how much coax is running through the house, I will try to come up with a better estimate.


You're welcome. I'm happy to help. As for the Ethernet connections in my diagram: Normally, the Ethernet cable out of the MoCA adapter would need to go directly into the Ethernet port on the basic Roamio. But then how would your MoCA network get its requisite Ethernet connection to your router? Your solution is currently to connect both the adapter and the Roamio to Ethernet LAN ports on your router. Now, I can't be sure that _won't_ work - I've never tried it and never had someone else verify that it is OK. So for right now, stick with what you have, but keep in mind that it may turn out to cause problems. At any rate, just as you do, I don't think your solution has anything to do with slow MoCA speeds.

So the next thing to do is set up the Mini and see whether video transfers to it from the Roamio go OK. If they do, you may be all set.

When you replace the TiVo HD with a truly MoCA-enabled TiVo DVR, you will be able to get yet more "proof of the pudding."

Edit: I think that once you get the Mini set up, the "proof of the pudding" might be for you to open YouTube and play any of the 4K videos there. Just do a search on "4K" and you will find a huge number of videos in 4K at 60 frames per second. (I especially like the ones by Jacob + Katie Schwartz, such as "COSTA RICA IN 4K 60fps (ULTRA HD) w/ Freefly Movi.") Anyway, these videos will require a high bitrate to be streamed to your Mini - it doesn't matter that you don't have a 4K TV. If they play OK, you probably have no real problem with slow MoCA.


----------



## HarperVision

epstewart said:


> You're welcome. I'm happy to help. As for the Ethernet connections in my diagram: Normally, the Ethernet cable out of the MoCA adapter would need to go directly into the Ethernet port on the basic Roamio. But then how would your MoCA network get its requisite Ethernet connection to your router? Your solution is currently to connect both the adapter and the Roamio to Ethernet LAN ports on your router. Now, I can't be sure that won't work &#151; I've never tried it and never had someone else verify that it is OK. So for right now, stick with what you have, but keep in mind that it may turn out to cause problems. At any rate, just as you do, I don't think your solution has anything to do with slow MoCA speeds. So the next thing to do is set up the Mini and see whether video transfers to it from the Roamio go OK. If they do, you may be all set. When you replace the TiVo HD with a truly MoCA-enabled TiVo DVR, you will be able to get yet more "proof of the pudding."


I have mine that way, but with deca adapters, but it's the same difference. If you put the MoCA adapter and the Roamio on the same LAN by connecting them to the same router's switch ports, then there shouldn't be any issue or reason they can't and won't speak to each other. The MoCa adapter shouldn't have any issues bridging said LAN to its moca side either.


----------



## epstewart

HarperVision said:


> I have mine that way, but with deca adapters, but it's the same difference. If you put the MoCA adapter and the Roamio on the same LAN by connecting them to the same router's switch ports, then there shouldn't be any issue or reason they can't and won't speak to each other. The MoCa adapter shouldn't have any issues bridging said LAN to its moca side either.


Thanks, Dave. I guess I wasn't sure whether the LAN ports on a router function as an Ethernet switch. They apparently do. The diagram I provided to Chris Gerhard was based on one I originally drew showing the standalone switch as having Ethernet connections to other gear besides the Roamio, the MoCA adapter, and the router, such as a Sony PlayStation. But I guess if the user has all that gear in the same room as the router, they could use the router as a switch! I never thought of that before ...


----------



## Chris Gerhard

epstewart said:


> You're welcome. I'm happy to help. As for the Ethernet connections in my diagram: Normally, the Ethernet cable out of the MoCA adapter would need to go directly into the Ethernet port on the basic Roamio. But then how would your MoCA network get its requisite Ethernet connection to your router? Your solution is currently to connect both the adapter and the Roamio to Ethernet LAN ports on your router. Now, I can't be sure that _won't_ work  I've never tried it and never had someone else verify that it is OK. So for right now, stick with what you have, but keep in mind that it may turn out to cause problems. At any rate, just as you do, I don't think your solution has anything to do with slow MoCA speeds.
> 
> So the next thing to do is set up the Mini and see whether video transfers to it from the Roamio go OK. If they do, you may be all set.
> 
> When you replace the TiVo HD with a truly MoCA-enabled TiVo DVR, you will be able to get yet more "proof of the pudding."
> 
> Edit: I think that once you get the Mini set up, the "proof of the pudding" might be for you to open YouTube and play any of the 4K videos there. Just do a search on "4K" and you will find a huge number of videos in 4K at 60 frames per second. (I especially like the ones by Jacob + Katie Schwartz, such as "COSTA RICA IN 4K 60fps (ULTRA HD) w/ Freefly Movi.") Anyway, these videos will require a high bitrate to be streamed to your Mini  it doesn't matter that you don't have a 4K TV. If they play OK, you probably have no real problem with slow MoCA.


I set up the TiVo Mini upstairs, played the Costa Rica 4K 60fps video connected to a 1080p display and it played flawlessly. I will take time later to look at some diagnostics you suggested.

I didn't mention that I do have an 8-port gigabit switch in the same room with the MoCA adapter creating my MoCA network which is connected to various devices, Blu-ray, PS3, PC, etc. I can move connections around, run the connection to the Roamio through the switch to see if any of that will matter. I moved the Roamio connection to the router from the switch when I set up the MoCA network, not knowing if that could have any impact but felt it couldn't hurt since the MoCA adapter and Roamio would be connected to the same switch.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> Thanks, Dave. I guess I wasn't sure whether the LAN ports on a router function as an Ethernet switch. They apparently do. The diagram I provided to Chris Gerhard was based on one I originally drew showing the standalone switch as having Ethernet connections to other gear besides the Roamio, the MoCA adapter, and the router, such as a Sony PlayStation. But I guess if the user has all that gear in the same room as the router, they could use the router as a switch! I never thought of that before ...


You can think of a router as a "switch on steroids". It can perform all the functions of a switch, plus many more functions that a simple switch cannot perform.


----------



## snerd

Chris Gerhard said:


> I think the simple answer is my MoCA speed isn't good because the coax run throughout the house is too long. All cables from the roof are used for OTA reception in the house, 3 TiVos and a TV, but I can now disconnect 1 cable and live with 3 connections, then I assume terminate the unused output on the splitter. I do plan to use the TiVo Mini upstairs, replace a TiVoHD after I get the recordings watched or transferred. As far as how much coax is running through the house, I will try to come up with a better estimate.


Your setup sounds like it should work fine, so the speed issue might be some little detail causing problems. As long as there is no other traffic streaming on the MoCA network, your speed tests through the MoCA network should be fairly close to speed tests when connected directly to the router. Speed dropping from 80Mbps to 15Mbps is strong evidence of a problem.

The MoCA spec allows 300ft of coax, measured from the main splitter (or PoE filter) to any single MoCA device. So if your house is smaller than a football field, you should be OK. If you can get good estimates of cable lengths, and verify the type of coax (should be either RG6 or RG59) that might help.

Yes, terminate any/all unused outputs on the splitter. If that 4th splitter output is connected to coax that goes to a room where you aren't currently using the signal, I would suggest that you keep the coax connected to the splitter and terminate the port in the room. That way, if you decide later to connect something in that room, you won't have to remember that it was disconnected from the splitter. From an electrical perspective, a properly terminated run of coax is indistinguishable from attaching a termination directly to the splitter.

One other possibility to try -- if you have the MoCA adapter connected directly to the router and the TiVo connected to the 8-port switch that is fed by the router, try changing around the connections so that both are either connected directly to the router or both to the 8-port switch. It shouldn't really matter, but can't hurt to try.


----------



## F18fxr

OK, my head is swimming a bit here. 

I'm about to cut the cord and go with a Bolt and Mini, with OTA antenna.

My current set up in a new house is DirecTV DVR in the family room sending a signal back through coax to the Genie in the MBR.

I have an ethernet connection from the DVR to my cable modem and router that is in a closet on the main floor. I don't have ethernet in my MBR.

Is it as simple as plugging in a MoCA adapter between router and modem? Then plugging the mini into the coax in the MBR?


----------



## snerd

F18fxr said:


> OK, my head is swimming a bit here.
> 
> I'm about to cut the cord and go with a Bolt and Mini, with OTA antenna.
> 
> My current set up in a new house is DirecTV DVR in the family room sending a signal back through coax to the Genie in the MBR.
> 
> I have an ethernet connection from the DVR to my cable modem and router that is in a closet on the main floor. I don't have ethernet in my MBR.
> 
> Is it as simple as plugging in a MoCA adapter between router and modem? Then plugging the mini into the coax in the MBR?


If you have can make a wired ethernet connection to the Bolt, then it can create the MoCA network, so you won't need a MoCA adapter.

The simplest system would use a 2-way splitter that is rated up the 1675MHz (or higher), and a MoCA PoE filter, connected as follows:



Code:


OTA antenna --> coax --> PoE filter --> splitter in
  splitter out#1 -> coax -> Bolt
  splitter out#2 -> coax -> Mini


----------



## F18fxr

snerd said:


> If you have can make a wired ethernet connection to the Bolt, then it can create the MoCA network, so you won't need a MoCA adapter.
> 
> The simplest system would use a 2-way splitter that is rated up the 1675MHz (or higher), and a MoCA PoE filter, connected as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> OTA antenna --> coax --> PoE filter --> splitter in
> splitter out#1 -> coax -> Bolt
> splitter out#2 -> coax -> Mini


I changed things up today and got in on the Roamio OTA w/Lifetime on Amazon instead of the Bolt.

Will that change things in my setup? I believe I will now need a MoCA adapter correct? (I will have wired ethernet at the Roamio).


----------



## mdavej

Correct


----------



## snerd

F18fxr said:


> I changed things up today and got in on the Roamio OTA w/Lifetime on Amazon instead of the Bolt.
> 
> Will that change things in my setup? I believe I will now need a MoCA adapter correct? (I will have wired ethernet at the Roamio).


One simple way to connect the MoCA adapter and the Roamio OTA:


Code:


wall -> coax -> "Coax In" [MoCA Adapter] "TV/STB out" -> coax -> Roamio

You will need to connect ehternet to both the Roamio and the MoCA adapter.


----------



## deathopie

Just got a refurb mini from Woot. Someone in the Woot comments mentioned that with a Roamio Plus I could set up a Moca network via the wifi connection I'm currently using (no lan connection at Roamio). I'm guessing that's not true since I just tried it and it failed. I saw buried in the thread somewhere that this might be something they get working. Any news on that? I guess I should bite the bullet and just buy the adapter.

I have Comcast with a surfboard modem and TP link wifi router. Roamio connects via wifi currently.


----------



## snerd

deathopie said:


> Just got a refurb mini from Woot. Someone in the Woot comments mentioned that with a Roamio Plus I could set up a Moca network via the wifi connection I'm currently using (no lan connection at Roamio). I'm guessing that's not true since I just tried it and it failed. I saw buried in the thread somewhere that this might be something they get working. Any news on that? I guess I should bite the bullet and just buy the adapter.
> 
> I have Comcast with a surfboard modem and TP link wifi router. Roamio connects via wifi currently.


You've drawn the correct conclusion from the failed trial. I believe TiVo may be working to allow a Bolt to bridge from WiFi to MoCA, but I don't think this will necessarily carry over to the Roamio.

Adding a MoCA adapter next to your modem/router would provide a solid connection for both the Roamio and the Mini.


----------



## terryjamison

I just switched from 2 HD's to a Roamio basic and a TiVo Mini. The Roamio is in the living room (LR). The mini is in the bedroom. They are currently networked through ethernet. The Roamio in the living room shares the ethernet connection with an AppleTV through a switch. The mini in the bedroom has an independent ethernet connection.

The other night, the wife and daughter were binge-watching Gilmore Girls through Netflix through the AppleTV, my son was on his computer doing on-line gaming through ethernet while simultaneously Facetiming over WiFi and I was using the laptop over WiFi for internet. The laptop seemed unusually slow over the laptop.

I went in to the bedroom to watch tv through the mini. The streaming seemed slow.

Would a MoCA network help speed things up? Specifically, I'm thinking of putting the Roamio and mini on their own MoCA network.


----------



## fcfc2

terryjamison said:


> I just switched from 2 HD's to a Roamio basic and a TiVo Mini. The Roamio is in the living room (LR). The mini is in the bedroom. They are currently networked through ethernet. The Roamio in the living room shares the ethernet connection with an AppleTV through a switch. The mini in the bedroom has an independent ethernet connection.
> 
> The other night, the wife and daughter were binge-watching Gilmore Girls through Netflix through the AppleTV, my son was on his computer doing on-line gaming through ethernet while simultaneously Facetiming over WiFi and I was using the laptop over WiFi for internet. The laptop seemed unusually slow over the laptop.
> 
> I went in to the bedroom to watch tv through the mini. The streaming seemed slow.
> 
> Would a MoCA network help speed things up? Specifically, I'm thinking of putting the Roamio and mini on their own MoCA network.


Hi,
When you say you were "streaming" with the mini, do you mean as in via the internet, i.e., Netflix, Amazon, or streaming a recording from your Roamio? Who is your ISP and what speed do you have? Have you run any internet speed tests when this is occurring? 
Even a fast Ethernet network with a decent router shouldn't be overloaded, assuming all of your cables and switches are up to par.
You have got to sort out if the issue is your local network vs your internet speed during prime time.
The local network might benefit from the use of MoCA, but if the issue is streaming from the internet it will not.


----------



## terryjamison

...



fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> When you say you were "streaming" with the mini, do you mean as in via the internet, i.e., Netflix, Amazon, or streaming a recording from your Roamio?
> 
> _Streaming/transferring an HD recording from the Roamio and live HD television from the Roamio- So, it was within my LAN Roamio to mini via ethernet_
> 
> 
> Who is your ISP and what speed do you have?
> 
> _Cox Preferred_
> 
> Have you run any internet speed tests when this is occurring?
> 
> No, not during all of the above- WiFi download speed w/o the above is 46.93 Mbps, off peak
> 
> Even a fast Ethernet network with a decent router shouldn't be overloaded, assuming all of your cables and switches are up to par.
> You have got to sort out if the issue is your local network vs your internet speed during prime time.
> The local network might benefit from the use of MoCA, but if the issue is streaming from the internet it will not.
> 
> It's a cat 5e-cabled ethernet network with a wireless N-600 ASUS RT-N56U router with a TRENDnet 8-port Gigabit switch (8x10/100/1000 Mbps).
> 
> Just wondering, is it possible to put the TiVo and the Mini on a separate network, a MoCA network with it's own router, leaving the AppleTV and all of the computers on the existing ethernet LAN and router ? Any benefit to this, in concept?


----------



## fcfc2

Hi,
The issue is your local network. Setting up another router/ network will add a great deal of complexity and is not the most expedient way to approach the problem or solve it. 
You current hardware, assuming not defective, should be easily able to handle the local activity. It is sometimes recommended that running only one Ethernet cable from the router to a switch is better because much of the traffic on the local network can then bypass the router to communicate with each other as your Tivo equipment is doing. If you have enough ports on your switch try using those for your Tivos and see if you get any improvement. 
Part of the problem with troubleshooting local networks is that anything from an "iffy" Ethernet cable or port on a switch can cause lots of strange performance problems, so switching some cables out and trying different ports is another step.


----------



## epstewart

terryjamison said:


> I just switched from 2 HD's to a Roamio basic and a TiVo Mini. The Roamio is in the living room (LR). The mini is in the bedroom. They are currently networked through ethernet. The Roamio in the living room shares the ethernet connection with an AppleTV through a switch. The mini in the bedroom has an independent ethernet connection.
> 
> The other night, the wife and daughter were binge-watching Gilmore Girls through Netflix through the AppleTV, my son was on his computer doing on-line gaming through ethernet while simultaneously Facetiming over WiFi and I was using the laptop over WiFi for internet. The laptop seemed unusually slow over the laptop.
> 
> I went in to the bedroom to watch tv through the mini. The streaming seemed slow.
> 
> Would a MoCA network help speed things up? Specifically, I'm thinking of putting the Roamio and mini on their own MoCA network.


I'll assume that all of your LAN equipment is operating fine and that your prime-time Internet speed is up to par. Then the only thing I can see as slowing things down under heavy use would be data collisions/bottlenecks on your LAN. If you changed to MoCA for your Roamio-to-Mini traffic, you might well gain in overall throughput.


----------



## terryjamison

At the Roamio location, my living room, I have only one ethernet jack. This one jack is harwired through the wall back to my 8-port switch which is inturn connected to the router. So, I have added a 4-port switch at the Roamio into which I have plugged the Roamio, a TiVo HD and an AppleTV. So, this 4-port swith is piggy-backed onto the 8-port switch.

I'll try plugging the 4-port switch and the ethernet for the TiVo Mini directly into the router as opposed to into the 8-port switch where they are now.


----------



## epstewart

terryjamison said:


> At the Roamio location, my living room, I have only one ethernet jack. This one jack is harwired through the wall back to my 8-port switch which is inturn connected to the router. So, I have added a 4-port switch at the Roamio into which I have plugged the Roamio, a TiVo HD and an AppleTV. So, this 4-port swith is piggy-backed onto the 8-port switch.
> 
> I'll try plugging the 4-port switch and the ethernet for the TiVo Mini directly into the router as opposed to into the 8-port switch where they are now.


If your Roamio has Ethernet access of any sort to your router, and it sounds like it does, and if you have a coax connection available at your Mini, you could easily have the Roamio "create a MoCA network" and have the Mini connect using MoCA. That experiment would tell you whether you get a speedup or not over using just Ethernet, and it might be easier to try than fooling with the Ethernet setup ...


----------



## RadViper

Hi guys, not sure if this is the right place for this, but here goes...

My parents recently signed up for Atlantic Broadband in CT (Formerly called Metrocast). Between the time my mom signed up for it and the installation, they introduced a new Tivo package. So now they're trying to get the basic DVR (with just 120 GB storage) swapped out for a Tivo Roamio T6.
Now, the cable company says that the modem that I bought for them (This One) WILL NOT WORK for a Tivo. They do have a Wifi network setup with wireless router also.
They're trying to make her either rent a modem, or buy it for $150. They're calling it a MoCA modem.

Reading option 1 of the original post, it doesn't seem I'd need a special modem to set up the MoCA network.

They do have two TVs, one downstairs, and one upstairs in their bedroom.
The Tivo from the cable company is a Roamio T6, and they will also provide a Tivo Mini to make the upstairs TV work.

Here are my questions: 
1. Will their current modem work with the Tivo Roamio and the Tivo mini? Is the cable company just trying to make a buck, of is it really necessary to get a special modem?
2. Is it possible for my parents to just buy their own Tivo equipment and replace the cable company's crappy DVR? Is it as simple as unplugging the DVR and plugging in the Tivo? The cable company says they'd need to come out to install the Tivo when they upgrade.

I have NO experience with Tivo at all, but I'm pretty good with computers and networks.
Hopefully I gave enough information, and any help is appreciated!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

RadViper said:


> Hi guys, not sure if this is the right place for this, but here goes...
> 
> My parents recently signed up for Atlantic Broadband in CT (Formerly called Metrocast). Between the time my mom signed up for it and the installation, they introduced a new Tivo package. So now they're trying to get the basic DVR (with just 120 GB storage) swapped out for a Tivo Roamio T6.
> Now, the cable company says that the modem that I bought for them (This One) WILL NOT WORK for a Tivo. They do have a Wifi network setup with wireless router also.
> They're trying to make her either rent a modem, or buy it for $150. They're calling it a MoCA modem.
> 
> Reading option 1 of the original post, it doesn't seem I'd need a special modem to set up the MoCA network.
> 
> They do have two TVs, one downstairs, and one upstairs in their bedroom.
> The Tivo from the cable company is a Roamio T6, and they will also provide a Tivo Mini to make the upstairs TV work.
> 
> Here are my questions:
> 1. Will their current modem work with the Tivo Roamio and the Tivo mini? Is the cable company just trying to make a buck, of is it really necessary to get a special modem?
> 2. Is it possible for my parents to just buy their own Tivo equipment and replace the cable company's crappy DVR? Is it as simple as unplugging the DVR and plugging in the Tivo? The cable company says they'd need to come out to install the Tivo when they upgrade.
> 
> I have NO experience with Tivo at all, but I'm pretty good with computers and networks.
> Hopefully I gave enough information, and any help is appreciated!


You're correct. You don't need their modem+moca to make the Tivo and Minis work. You can do that on your own with one of the options shown in the first post.

But, how much their installers are willing to veer off their standard installation to accommodate your installation method is another matter. No idea. If you could self-install, that would bypass the issue altogether.

Yes Tivos can be bought at retail or online instead. They will just need to rent a cablecard.


----------



## Old Hickory

What Moca Adapter would you recommended for the below configuration?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=24478&d=1449088983

Where I have:
Roamio Pro in Room A
Mini 2 in Room B
Mini 2 in Room C
Xfinity Modem/Router/Gateway in bridge mode to a Netgear N900 in Room D.

Thanks!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Old Hickory said:


> What Moca Adapter would you recommended for the below configuration?


They'll all get the job done. The cheapest and most popular is the $50 one sold on Tivo.com.


----------



## Old Hickory

BigJimOutlaw said:


> They'll all get the job done. The cheapest and most popular is the $50 one sold on Tivo.com.


Done. Picked up the POE, as well. Saved me a few bucks, too. Thanks BJO.


----------



## terryjamison

epstewart said:


> If your Roamio has Ethernet access of any sort to your router, and it sounds like it does, and if you have a coax connection available at your Mini, you could easily have the Roamio "create a MoCA network" and have the Mini connect using MoCA. That experiment would tell you whether you get a speedup or not over using just Ethernet, and it might be easier to try than fooling with the Ethernet setup ...


I have a basic 4T Roamio w/o built-in MoCA. It is wired via Ethernet. The Mini does have coax available.


----------



## mdavej

That Roamio does not have Moca.


----------



## epstewart

terryjamison said:


> I have a basic 4T Roamio w/o built-in MoCA. It is wired via Ethernet. The Mini does have coax available.


Sorry, Terry. I thought you had a different Roamio model.

OK, I went back and refreshed my memory about your original question. You basically wanted to know whether a MoCA network for your Roamio and Mini to use would speed up your streaming from the Roamio to the Mini. The question boils down to whether the slow streaming you have observed through your all-Ethernet LAN when the LAN is also getting heavy use elsewhere in your house would be improved with MoCA between the TiVos. I guess there's only one way to be sure, and that's to try it. But you currently lack the ability to create a MoCA network. Your Roamio can't do it, and neither can your Mini. So you would need a MoCA adapter such as this one for $50. This corresponds to Option 2 in the original post in this thread. The MoCA adapter would be connected to your router and cable modem.

You would also need a second MoCA adapter in order to get your Roamio on the MoCA network created by the first adapter. See "Setting up a 2-tuner Tivo or a 4-tuner basic Tivo Roamio for MoCA" in the original post.

Another option is to just get one MoCA adapter and use an Ethernet switch to connect the adapter to both your router and the Roamio, as in this diagram:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=24717&d=1451686986

There is also a chance that you would need a MoCA POE filter for $9, so you would avoid losing signal strength on your MoCA network.

If you want to make the investment, you might find that it helps you a lot. Good luck.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

I really probably should have posted this in this thread, but since it's longer than War and Peace, will not copy it here. Perhaps a mod could move it if needed.

If anyone has any thought on this, I would appreciate it.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10780512#post10780512


----------



## mjh

I have read through the first post in this thread and am still a bit confused. I think my confusion stems from the assumptions made in the diagrams. Specifically that most houses are wired for cable TV, and when you connect to the cable TV service, it lights up every cable outlet in the house.

But that's not the case for me. First, I don't subscribe to cable tv. Second, when external signal comes into my house, it comes in at one point. Antenna comes in on one cable, and internet comes in on a seperate cable. And then I distribute the signal to the rest of my house as needed.

So I have two diagrams that I've drawn speculating on how to make this work. I would appreciate some feedback on which is the more accurate of the two.

First this setup.








​For this one, my questions are: 

Will this work?
Which port do I plug the coax into? Which one will get the MoCa Signal? Coax In or STB/TV out? Or both?
If, later on, I want to send moca to another room that doesn't have ethernet how would I do that? Would I need a splitter on the outgoing end of the moca adapter?
Here's another guess as to how I could set this up:






My questions for this:

Will this work?
Does MoCa respect the channels and use it's own or is there a possiblity that it will trample the existing OTA signal?
Do I need to put some sort of filter on each output from the distribution amp so that only the correct type of signal gets sent to each tivo? 
Thanks so much for any help you can offer.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

mjh said:


> I have read through the first post in this thread and am still a bit confused. I think my confusion stems from the assumptions made in the diagrams. Specifically that most houses are wired for cable TV, and when you connect to the cable TV service, it lights up every cable outlet in the house.
> 
> But that's not the case for me. First, I don't subscribe to cable tv. Second, when external signal comes into my house, it comes in at one point. Antenna comes in on one cable, and internet comes in on a seperate cable. And then I distribute the signal to the rest of my house as needed.
> 
> So I have two diagrams that I've drawn speculating on how to make this work. I would appreciate some feedback on which is the more accurate of the two.
> 
> First this setup.
> 
> image removed for space​For this one, my questions are:
> 
> Will this work?
> Which port do I plug the coax into? Which one will get the MoCa Signal? Coax In or STB/TV out? Or both?
> If, later on, I want to send moca to another room that doesn't have ethernet how would I do that? Would I need a splitter on the outgoing end of the moca adapter?
> Here's another guess as to how I could set this up:
> image removed for space​My questions for this:
> 
> Will this work?
> Does MoCa respect the channels and use it's own or is there a possiblity that it will trample the existing OTA signal?
> Do I need to put some sort of filter on each output from the distribution amp so that only the correct type of signal gets sent to each tivo?
> Thanks so much for any help you can offer.


You're right, the first post assumes one (cable) source feeding the whole house. That's how it is for most folks, but certainly OTA folks sometimes need a different way.

In your situation, neither diagram will quite work because the moca adapter doesn't pass moca through its coax output.

The Roamio's connection by ethernet is fine. What you would do with your internet coax is split it:

1. Install a POE filter on the input side of the splitter.

2. From the splitter, one leg goes to the moca adapter, the other leg goes directly to the Mini.

3. On the leg going to the moca adapter: The adapter's coax output goes to your modem. The adapter's ethernet output goes to a router LAN port.

==

Alternatively, you can put the Roamio, adapter, and Mini all on OTA coax.

- Your amp would need to either be moca compatible, or a split must happen downstream from the amp.

- One coax leg goes to the moca adapter, the other leg goes directly to the Mini.

- On the leg going to the moca adapter, the adapter's coax-out goes to the Roamio. Then both the Roamio and the adapter connect by ethernet to the router.


----------



## Old Hickory

I wanted to "shout out" to those of you who are assisting the rest of us... 

THANKS!

I installed my MoCa network yesterday and it works like a charm. Was very easy and quick to install. Like some have said, Plug and Play. Being able to use Tivo Roamio on all the other HDTVs is amazing! And, Moca makes streaming video better. 

FYI. The Moca adapter from Tivo is the way to go. The box contained: the adapter, an Ethernet cable, a coax cable, and a power cord. Plus, it had very well diagramed instructions.


----------



## mjh

BigJimOutlaw said:


> In your situation, neither diagram will quite work because the moca adapter doesn't pass moca through its coax output.


That's a little confusing. If the moca adapter doesn't pass moca through its coax output how does moca get onto the coax? Does the adapter pass moca from the mini via it's coax input port?



> What you would do with your internet coax is split it:
> 
> 1. Install a POE filter on the input side of the splitter.
> 
> 2. From the splitter, one leg goes to the moca adapter, the other leg goes directly to the Mini.
> 
> 3. On the leg going to the moca adapter: The adapter's coax output goes to your modem. The adapter's ethernet output goes to a router LAN port.


Ok. I can do that. But I still don't understand. It seems like you're saying I should do this:






Earlier you said the adapter doesn't pass moca through it's coax output? Where does the moca come from? Does it comes from the mini, and the adapter just converts it into ethernet?

If that's the case, couldn't I do this using the moca adapter's coax input port (leaving the output port unconnected to anything)?








What am I missing?


----------



## snerd

mjh said:


> Earlier you said the adapter doesn't pass moca through it's coax output? Where does the moca come from? Does it comes from the mini, and the adapter just converts it into ethernet?


The MoCA adapter "bridges" ethernet signals from the ethernet port, converting them to MoCA signals on the "Coax In" port. MoCA signals enter/leave the MoCA adapter only on the "Coax In" port. No MoCA signals appear on the "TV/STB out" port. Video signals will pass between the two ports with little loss, but there are filters built into the MoCA adapter that block the MoCA signals from passing between the two ports.

In your diagram, the splitter would connect to "Coax In" and the cable modem would connect to "TV/STB out" to get a working MoCA network. With those connections, everything should work fine. Changing to a 3-way splitter would allow you to extend the MoCA network for additional Minis.

You can also connect as shown in your second diagram as long as the "Coax In" port is connected to the coax. In that setup, the "TV/STB out" port should be capped with a 75-ohm termination. As a general rule, unused coax ports should always be capped with a 75-ohm termination. There are some rare exceptions to this rule.

Your first diagram is what I would recommend because it is easily extended to add more MoCA connections.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

mjh said:


> That's a little confusing. If the moca adapter doesn't pass moca through its coax output how does moca get onto the coax? Does the adapter pass moca from the mini via it's coax input port?


The easiest way to explain it is to think of the moca adapter as an ethernet-to-coax converter. An internet signal comes from the router, to the moca adapter, and onto the coax (moca is transmitted out the coax-in port).

The coax-out port is there just as a convenience so you don't lose the use of that coax for your TV, cable modem, another STB or whatever.



mjh said:


> Ok. I can do that. But I still don't understand. It seems like you're saying I should do this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Earlier you said the adapter doesn't pass moca through it's coax output? Where does the moca come from? Does it comes from the mini, and the adapter just converts it into ethernet?


This diagram would work. Hopefully I explained the moca questions above.



mjh said:


> If that's the case, couldn't I do this using the moca adapter's coax input port (leaving the output port unconnected to anything)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What am I missing?


Oh, I assumed in the second diagram that the coax-out was also being used to fuel the Mini. Generally moca setups are designed to "light up" an entire house. It's not the conventional method to connect directly to a single device, but I can't think of a reason off-hand why it wouldn't work as long as you use the coax-in. If it doesn't work, your new diagram will.


----------



## mdavej

Just to clarify what Outlaw is saying, there should be no coax from the Moca adapter directly to the Mini. The Moca adapter hangs off your existing coax network like another cable box, just as your Mini does. Only difference is it also has an ethernet connection to your router as your diagram shows.


----------



## mjh

BigJimOutlaw said:


> (moca is transmitted out the coax-in port).


This was the part I was missing. I was thinking of the adapter as an ethernet to coax converter, but in my head the flow was from ethernet -> coax. Which meant that the output seems like the most logical place where moca will end up.

But the adapters seem to think of the flow the other way round from coax -> ethernet. Hence networking comes IN via MOCA on the input port and flows out to the ethernet.

Geez, you never know which unspoken assumptions are the ones that are tripping you up.


----------



## mdavej

The coax port labels are a bit of a misnomer. As you now see, Coax IN is actually Moca IN/OUT, and TV OUT is actually just CATV OUT (with Moca filtered out).


----------



## snerd

mdavej said:


> The coax port labels are a bit of a misnomer. As you now see, Coax IN is actually Moca IN/OUT, and TV OUT is actually just CATV OUT (with Moca filtered out).


Assuming we're talking about the Actiontec ECB2500C, the two coax ports are connected by a simple passive filter, so for video signals it acts as a bidirectional feedthrough. From the "TV/STB out" side, it essentially looks like a MoCA PoE filter.

The fact that it is a bidirectional feedthrough (with low loss) is why an unused "TV/STB out" port needs to be capped with a 75-ohm termination. If it were a unidirectional buffer, that wouldn't be necessary.


----------



## mjh

In this diagram, moca is expected to work just fine when it goes through the split end of a passive splitter.








If I replaced the splitter with a distribution amplifier, would this still work? A distribution amplifier is kinda like a powered splitter. The idea is to amplify the signal before it's split so that the loss of signal that comes from splitting is reduced.

What I'm actually trying to build is this for a friend who has two premiers:








Will this work?


----------



## BRiT wtfdotcom

If you get a moca friendly amplifier. There are plenty of inexpensive ones out there. There is the Electroline 2500mma and 2900mma units. They even function as a POE filter to keep the moca connection within the provided ports without going upstream on the signal input port.


----------



## fcfc2

BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> If you get a moca friendly amplifier. There are plenty of inexpensive ones out there. There is the Electroline 2500mma and 2900mma units. They even function as a POE filter to keep the moca connection within the provided ports without going upstream on the signal input port.


Hi,
I see that these are MoCA friendly, but I see no reference to them having a built in MoCA POE filter. Did I miss it?


----------



## BRiT wtfdotcom

fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> I see that these are MoCA friendly, but I see no reference to them having a built in MoCA POE filter. Did I miss it?


I cant find the exact spec sheet i saw earlier when I first bought the part, but these might show enough info on how its supposed to have a low pass filter to cut off Moca:

http://www.electroline.com/fact_sheets/eda/950-0135_EDA-2500MM_FACT_SHEET.pdf
http://www.parts-express.com/electroline-eda2900mma-8-port-rf-catv-distribution-amplifier--182-569

On the amp itself it lists a -26 dB signal for 1125-1525 but thats for input signal to amplified outputs isolation, and then list 36 dB for amplified output to input isolation. The moca poe filters on Amazon list typical 35 to 45 dB range.

The antronix moca poe filter Cox provides can be anywhere from 40 dB to 70 dB, depending on exact model numbers.


----------



## snerd

BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> On the amp itself it lists a -26 dB signal for 1125-1525 but thats for input signal to amplified outputs isolation, and then list 36 dB for amplified output to input isolation. The moca poe filters on Amazon list typical 35 to 45 dB range.


The MoCA spec allows a *maximum* of 25dB loss from the entry to any given MoCA device, so this spec seems to suggest that the amplifier is NOT MoCA compatible.


----------



## snerd

mjh said:


> What I'm actually trying to build is this for a friend who has two premiers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will this work?


I don't think that will work. The DOCSIS signals used by cable modems are assigned to 6MHz "channels" that may clash with the OTA frequencies. It is also likely that video signals will be on the coax from the cable company, so any "combiner" that tries to place those signals on the same coax is likely to cause problems.

When connecting a MoCA adapter to a two-tuner Premiere, you can remove the splitter and connect from the wall to "Coax In" on the MoCA adapter, then from "TV/STB out" to the Premiere. This will give stronger MoCA signals for the MoCA adapter, as well as stronger video signals for the Premiere.


----------



## BRiT wtfdotcom

snerd said:


> The MoCA spec allows a *maximum* of 25dB loss from the entry to any given MoCA device, so this spec seems to suggest that the amplifier is NOT MoCA compatible.


No, that is from the very outside input, the moca signal is kept inside by the low pass filters. It does not allow moca signal from the main outside port to enter and doesnt allow moca signals from the inside ports to leave.

This is the exact port amplifier splitter that I am using on a Roamio and 4 Minis on Cox cable card with terminal adapter setup. The roamio is connected via ethernet with moca enabled to my router and all the minis are connected via moca.

Some specs from my mini on network status:
Peer node 1:
Tx PHY Rate: 276.759
Rx PHY Rate: 279.523
Tx Power Estimate: -21
Rx Power Estimate: 0.479

Node 2: 284.886, 283.911, -21, 0.464
Node 3 (Roamio): 283.423, 287.811, -21, 0.464
Node 4: 259.81, 279.050, -21, 0.482


----------



## fcfc2

BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> No, that is from the very outside input, the moca signal is kept inside by the low pass filters. It does not allow moca signal from the main outside port to enter and doesnt allow moca signals from the inside ports to leave.
> 
> This is the exact port amplifier splitter that I am using on a Roamio and 4 Minis on Cox cable card with terminal adapter setup. The roamio is connected via ethernet with moca enabled to my router and all the minis are connected via moca.
> 
> Some specs from my mini on network status:
> Peer node 1:
> Tx PHY Rate: 276.759
> Rx PHY Rate: 279.523
> Tx Power Estimate: -21
> Rx Power Estimate: 0.479
> 
> Node 2: 284.886, 283.911, -21, 0.464
> Node 3 (Roamio): 283.423, 287.811, -21, 0.464
> Node 4: 259.81, 279.050, -21, 0.482


Hi,
I am glad that your Electroline amp is working fine for your MoCA setup, but I could find no definitive statement or specification which indicates it also includes a MoCA filter as say the PCT brand of MoCA rated amps clearly do. You might want to test by temporarily placing a MoCA adapter before the input and seeing if it lights up and receives any MoCA signals. 
The only other thing is that the pricing is high relative to the blue label PPC EVO1-9-U/U or EVO1-5 U/U units readily available on Ebay for a third of the price. These do require a filter to be installed though.


----------



## BRiT wtfdotcom

The funny thing is, those blue label PPC units do not list or show anything over 1002MHz in their specsheets or on the unit themselves at all, nor do they mention Moca. Its good to know they work though.

When I picked up the moca friendly amplifier it was close to 18 months ago and the other PCT unit i was looking to get was always out of stock. It has increased in price since I got it, so I'm surprised its as pricey as it is.


----------



## fcfc2

BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> The funny thing is, those blue label PPC units do not list or show anything over 1002MHz in their specsheets or on the unit themselves at all, nor do they mention Moca. Its good to know they work though.
> 
> When I picked up the moca friendly amplifier it was close to 18 months ago and the other PCT unit i was looking to get was always out of stock. It has increased in price since I got it, so I'm surprised its as pricey as it is.


Hi, 
Actually the boxed units have a printed insert with instructions on connections and use that has a fairly sizable "MoCA Alliance" label and wording indicating it is MoCA compatible.
If you fast forward to about 50 seconds on this youtube video you can easily see the label and wording.


----------



## RadViper

I just posted a couple weeks back questioning the cable company and what they were telling my parents. The cable company is requiring the use of their moca capable modem. They also charge $10 a month to rent a Tivo Mini. So I bought a Tivo Mini for them on Amazon instead.
I'm having trouble getting the mini to connect to the moca network. Moca appears to be setup on the T6 downstairs, but when I go to set up the mini, I get a moca network error. I'm not using an encryption key, and can't figure out why it's not connecting.
The cable comes into the house and goes into a splitter, then to the modem and the T6. The Mini is connected right to the cable coming out of the wall upstairs. 
Please help!
Thanks


----------



## lessd

RadViper said:


> I just posted a couple weeks back questioning the cable company and what they were telling my parents. The cable company is requiring the use of their moca capable modem. They also charge $10 a month to rent a Tivo Mini. So I bought a Tivo Mini for them on Amazon instead.
> I'm having trouble getting the mini to connect to the moca network. Moca appears to be setup on the T6 downstairs, but when I go to set up the mini, I get a moca network error. I'm not using an encryption key, and can't figure out why it's not connecting.
> The cable comes into the house and goes into a splitter, then to the modem and the T6. The Mini is connected right to the cable coming out of the wall upstairs.
> Please help!
> Thanks


If the cable co modem does use MoCA encryption to keep people from using their own Mini, your screwed, I know only one person on RCN that uses TiVo supplied by RCN and the Mini is also supplied by RCN, never tried to see if you could use your own as the Mini must be in the same account as the TiVo and I don't know how one could do that with an cable co.s TiVo.


----------



## RadViper

Moca encryption appears to be turned off on the settings of the T6. Unless they do something in the background to prevent it. Is there something else I can check?


----------



## fcfc2

RadViper said:


> Moca encryption appears to be turned off on the settings of the T6. Unless they do something in the background to prevent it. Is there something else I can check?


Hi,
I have seen several posts in the past, all with folks trying to use their retail Tivo minis trying to get them to work with the ISP rented Tivos....they are not compatible, probably an account issue. They want you to "rent" one of theirs, not allow you to buy your own and use with their DVR's. It would be similar to trying to use your retail mini on a neighbors Tivo system without transferring it to the neighbors account.


----------



## lessd

fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> I have seen several posts in the past, all with folks trying to use their retail Tivo minis trying to get them to work with the ISP rented Tivos....they are not compatible, probably an account issue. They want you to "rent" one of theirs, not allow you to buy your own and use with their DVR's. It would be similar to trying to use your retail mini on a neighbors Tivo system without transferring it to the neighbors account.


Your correct on the account part, but RadViper can't even connect to the cable co.s MoCA with his retail mini, why ? I though it could be built in encryption in the cable co.s modem that puts out the MoCA signal, don't know how one could tell that as I have never used MoCA with encryption.


----------



## fcfc2

lessd said:


> Your correct on the account part, but RadViper can't even connect to the cable co.s MoCA with his retail mini, why ? I though it could be built in encryption in the cable co.s modem that puts out the MoCA signal, don't know how one could tell that as I have never used MoCA with encryption.


Hi less,
I have no idea exactly what RNC does with their version of the Tivos, but one other reason that a new mini might not connect to the network/internet via MoCA is that the mini might not be set to "auto" for the MoCA channel, in addition to all of the other splitter, coax, amplifier, issues which would block the connection. 
A check of the channel setting on the mini to insure it is set to "auto" might be a test, but it is entirely possible that RNC might use encryption or some other account related mechanism, which would block the retail mini from the network, but it is a fruitless task, as it will still never be usable on the RNC Tivo DVR. If one has a MoCA adapter which uses "auto" as a default, simply connecting that to a known good coax location would be a good test to determine if encryption is used for certain.


----------



## rapper58

Wondering if anyone has any suggestions.

I have a MoCA network created by my Tivo Roamio Plus connected via ethernet to my primary router. I also have 4 Tivo Minis connected to the MoCA network via coax. Everything works great.

I am trying to connect an Actiontec WCB3000N wireless range extender to this network by connecting it to a coax jack. When this new device powers up, the "Coax" light comes on and I can tell the primary router has leased it an ip address.

However, the Actiontec will not make a connection to the Internet. Also, it seems to actually force the other 4 Minis off the MoCA network. To get the Minis back online, I need to power off the Actiontec and then reboot the Roamio.

Maybe what I'm trying to do just won't work, but before I return the Actiontec to the retailer, I thought I would check to see if anyone has any ideas. I noted that the configuration page of the Actiontec has a default MoCA encryption key that it doesn't seem to want to relinquish, and the Tivo MoCA network has no encryption key by default. Could that be the problem, or at least one of the problems?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


----------



## fcfc2

rapper58 said:


> Wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
> 
> I have a MoCA network created by my Tivo Roamio Plus connected via ethernet to my primary router. I also have 4 Tivo Minis connected to the MoCA network via coax. Everything works great.
> 
> I am trying to connect an Actiontec WCB3000N wireless range extender to this network by connecting it to a coax jack. When this new device powers up, the "Coax" light comes on and I can tell the primary router has leased it an ip address.
> 
> However, the Actiontec will not make a connection to the Internet. Also, it seems to actually force the other 4 Minis off the MoCA network. To get the Minis back online, I need to power off the Actiontec and then reboot the Roamio.
> 
> Maybe what I'm trying to do just won't work, but before I return the Actiontec to the retailer, I thought I would check to see if anyone has any ideas. I noted that the configuration page of the Actiontec has a default MoCA encryption key that it doesn't seem to want to relinquish, and the Tivo MoCA network has no encryption key by default. Could that be the problem, or at least one of the problems?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


Hi,
You don't mention if you have the Actiontec or Verizon branded version, but I believe on both, you can login to the device and see if you can find the settings. I believe you may be able to modify the settings to either change to or from "auto" or possibly something to do with the MoCA settings separately to work around your problem. 
I will try to dig mine out if you can't find anything on yours. Good luck.


----------



## rapper58

fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> You don't mention if you have the Actiontec or Verizon branded version, but I believe on both, you can login to the device and see if you can find the settings. I believe you may be able to modify the settings to either change to or from "auto" or possibly something to do with the MoCA settings separately to work around your problem.
> I will try to dig mine out if you can't find anything on yours. Good luck.


Thanks. My equipment is Actiontec, not Verizon. I can login and change the settings on the device, but frankly I haven't figured out what settings to change. All I know is that the new Actiontect wireless extender isn't playing nice with my Tivo-created MoCA.

I wonder if I need to purchase the Actiontec ECB2500C coax adapter. I wouldn't think I would need this device if I already have a MoCA network created by the Tivo Roamio.


----------



## fcfc2

rapper58 said:


> Thanks. My equipment is Actiontec, not Verizon. I can login and change the settings on the device, but frankly I haven't figured out what settings to change. All I know is that the new Actiontect wireless extender isn't playing nice with my Tivo-created MoCA.
> 
> I wonder if I need to purchase the Actiontec ECB2500C coax adapter. I wouldn't think I would need this device if I already have a MoCA network created by the Tivo Roamio.


Hi again,
The device you have is usually referred to as a wireless network extender and is designed to pickup the wireless settings from the primary router and act as a wireless AP, with 2 Ethernet ports. There are some wanky aspects to the device when connected to a MoCA 2.0 network, in that, it forces all MoCA traffic down to the MoCA 1.1 speeds, where as the Actiontec ECB2500C and other stand alone devices do not do this. 
If left in it's default setting, it would try to detect the wireless settings on your primary router and use whatever MoCA channel was in use. However, Tivo does some non-standard things with their MoCA implementation including using unique MoCA channel designations, there may be other things that make it incompatible with that device also. 
The combo network extender comes with the ECB2500C which in the "usual" setup would be connected at the cable modem/ router location.
Before you give up, I would try using manual settings for the extender, not automatic, and look into the Tivo settings for the MoCA channel. If the Tivo is set to it's channel 15, that translates to D-1 on most standard MoCA adapters. If no joy after playing with the settings, you could try Actiontec support, or just go with the regular ECB2500C but then change the Tivo DVR to just "connect to" the MoCA network.


----------



## rapper58

fcfc2 said:


> Hi again,
> The device you have is usually referred to as a wireless network extender and is designed to pickup the wireless settings from the primary router and act as a wireless AP, with 2 Ethernet ports. There are some wanky aspects to the device when connected to a MoCA 2.0 network, in that, it forces all MoCA traffic down to the MoCA 1.1 speeds, where as the Actiontec ECB2500C and other stand alone devices do not do this.
> If left in it's default setting, it would try to detect the wireless settings on your primary router and use whatever MoCA channel was in use. However, Tivo does some non-standard things with their MoCA implementation including using unique MoCA channel designations, there may be other things that make it incompatible with that device also.
> The combo network extender comes with the ECB2500C which in the "usual" setup would be connected at the cable modem/ router location.
> Before you give up, I would try using manual settings for the extender, not automatic, and look into the Tivo settings for the MoCA channel. If the Tivo is set to it's channel 15, that translates to D-1 on most standard MoCA adapters. If no joy after playing with the settings, you could try Actiontec support, or just go with the regular ECB2500C but then change the Tivo DVR to just "connect to" the MoCA network.


OK, I will change the channel on the wireless network extender to match the channel designated by the Tivo DVR. I will also try to remove the encryption key on the extender's setting page, although when I first tried this, the extender did not seem to want to allow it. If these changes don't fix the problem, I plan to call Actiontec support.

Thanks.


----------



## mjh

So are there other moca adapters that will work with tivo other than the actiontec?


----------



## mdavej

Many. I use Channel Master.


----------



## fcfc2

mdavej said:


> Many. I use Channel Master.


Motorola, MyGica(Meritline), & Legrand are a few more. If you check Amazon for "MoCA" adapters you may also see some new asian companies now selling MoCA 2.0 adapters, but be careful as most of them only have "fast Ethernet" ports, which kind of defeats having MoCA 2.0.


----------



## lessd

fcfc2 said:


> Motorola, MyGica(Meritline), & Legrand are a few more. If you check Amazon for "MoCA" adapters you may also see some new asian companies now selling MoCA 2.0 adapters, but be careful as most of them only have "fast Ethernet" ports, which kind of defeats having MoCA 2.0.


Until TiVo has MoCA 2 on their units and Mini what advantage is MoCA 2 for TiVo use, and even then the use would only be useful for xfering stuff to another PC, or if needed to another TiVo, MoCA 2 will not help streaming from one TiVo to another.


----------



## fcfc2

lessd said:


> Until TiVo has MoCA 2 on their units and Mini what advantage is MoCA 2 for TiVo use, and even then the use would only be useful for xfering stuff to another PC, or if needed to another TiVo, MoCA 2 will not help streaming from one TiVo to another.


Hi less,
I am not advocating MoCA 2.0 for current Tivos, I only mentioned it in passing, although I am pretty sure Tivo didn't put MoCA 2.0 on the new Bolt just to waste money. 
It is also clear that MoCA 2.0 is going to be the eventual standard not just for Tivo but any number of other device manufacturers. Many folks who use their MoCA network not just for Tivo but for adding switches, AP's, general home networking, etc., precisely because many homes have coax already installed, while the number of homes that have both Ethernet and coax are only a tiny fraction. If you don't have Ethernet, then MoCA is generally considered the next best networking option and anyone who does or might use MoCA for other networking functions would be amiss if they didn't consider going with MoCA 2.0 devices from this point forward. 
In my mind, it is similar to using cat 6 vs cat 5e or cat 5, or investing in gigabit switches vs fast Ethernet.


----------



## aaronwt

Only Cat6 and cat5e will give you identical gigabit speeds.

While going from MoCA 1.1 to MoCA 2.0 gives you a big speed boost.


----------



## fcfc2

aaronwt said:


> Only Cat6 and cat5e will give you identical gigabit speeds.
> 
> While going from MoCA 1.1 to MoCA 2.0 gives you a big speed boost.


In general I agree for the average user, but given the relatively small price differential (10%), I went with cat 6 when I cabled up my home and there are some small benefits to going with cat 6. 
http://www.broadbandutopia.com/caandcaco.html


----------



## jrlbc06

Ever since I enabled MOCA with my Roamio, my Comcast DVRs (not Tivos, the set top boxes) are not able to play recordings that were recorded on the other one. 

Yes I have both TiVos and Comcast DVRs...a few family members like the Comcast setup and usually record on one DVR and watch on the other set top box, but ever since I enabled MOCA this hasn't been working. 

Coincidence? Or could there be a reason for this connected to me enabling MOCA?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

jrlbc06 said:


> Ever since I enabled MOCA with my Roamio, my Comcast DVRs (not Tivos, the set top boxes) are not able to play recordings that were recorded on the other one.
> 
> Yes I have both TiVos and Comcast DVRs...a few family members like the Comcast setup and usually record on one DVR and watch on the other set top box, but ever since I enabled MOCA this hasn't been working.
> 
> Coincidence? Or could there be a reason for this connected to me enabling MOCA?


Probably not coincidence. Their moca networks could be interfering or whatever.

The first/easiest thing to try is move the moca channel on all the Tivos to a different channel. Deep in the moca network settings, the default is either set to Auto or 15. If it's Auto, move them to 15. If they're set to 15, move them to Auto. If the comcast boxes still don't work, try 16.

A more complicated option would be to isolate the Comcast boxes so that the Tivo moca signal doesn't penetrate their feeds. This would mean moving those boxes to their own splitter and adding a POE filter onto the input of that splitter to keep the Tivo moca out.


----------



## jrlbc06

Great I'll play around with that this weekend. Thanks for the advice!


----------



## RMSko

If I have multiple Minis and they are all to be connected to the same Roamio Pro, can I connect some of the Minis via MoCA and others via Ethernet?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

RMSko said:


> If I have multiple Minis and they are all to be connected to the same Roamio Pro, can I connect some of the Minis via MoCA and others via Ethernet?


Yep


----------



## Fibber2

New here, and a search isn't helping. So here goes...

In the 2009 timeframe we finally got cable out here in the woods. I upgraded our TV system with an Electroline EDA-FT08300 8 port Drop Amp (a bidirectional amplified coax splitter), and a Tivo Series 3. This past fall we replaced the Series 3 with a Romeo Plus (6 tuner), and now want to replace some of our rented Comcast low def tuners with Tivo Mini units.

I have Ethernet to the main TV & Romeo, but not to the bedrooms. It could be done but it won't be easy, so I figured we'd just go MoCA. So far, so good.... Until I got on the phone with the TiVo tech line today to ask a few questions and he mentioned that they require 1.4 ghz bandwidth or it's 'crash & burn'. I went downstairs and sure enough the amp is only rated at 1005 mhz (1.005 ghz). That's a step up from the old 900 mhz splitter that was originally in the house, but unless the Electroline was very conservatively rated, probably not adequate for MoCA service?

Anyone have experience with using MoCA with these last generation amplified coax splitters? Any recommendations? Thanks!


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## BRiT wtfdotcom

Fibber2 said:


> New here, and a search isn't helping. So here goes...
> 
> In the 2009 timeframe we finally got cable out here in the woods. I upgraded our TV system with an Electroline EDA-FT08300 8 port Drop Amp (a bidirectional amplified coax splitter), and a Tivo Series 3. This past fall we replaced the Series 3 with a Romeo Plus (6 tuner), and now want to replace some of our rented Comcast low def tuners with Tivo Mini units.
> 
> I have Ethernet to the main TV & Romeo, but not to the bedrooms. It could be done but it won't be easy, so I figured we'd just go MoCA. So far, so good.... Until I got on the phone with the TiVo tech line today to ask a few questions and he mentioned that they require 1.4 ghz bandwidth or it's 'crash & burn'. I went downstairs and sure enough the amp is only rated at 1005 mhz (1.005 ghz). That's a step up from the old 900 mhz splitter that was originally in the house, but unless the Electroline was very conservatively rated, probably not adequate for MoCA service?
> 
> Anyone have experience with using MoCA with these last generation amplified coax splitters? Any recommendations? Thanks!


Read the last 4 pages or so as there is plenty of talk of various moca friendly amplifiers.


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## fcfc2

Fibber2 said:


> New here, and a search isn't helping. So here goes...
> 
> In the 2009 timeframe we finally got cable out here in the woods. I upgraded our TV system with an Electroline EDA-FT08300 8 port Drop Amp (a bidirectional amplified coax splitter), and a Tivo Series 3. This past fall we replaced the Series 3 with a Romeo Plus (6 tuner), and now want to replace some of our rented Comcast low def tuners with Tivo Mini units.
> 
> I have Ethernet to the main TV & Romeo, but not to the bedrooms. It could be done but it won't be easy, so I figured we'd just go MoCA. So far, so good.... Until I got on the phone with the TiVo tech line today to ask a few questions and he mentioned that they require 1.4 ghz bandwidth or it's 'crash & burn'. I went downstairs and sure enough the amp is only rated at 1005 mhz (1.005 ghz). That's a step up from the old 900 mhz splitter that was originally in the house, but unless the Electroline was very conservatively rated, probably not adequate for MoCA service?
> 
> Anyone have experience with using MoCA with these last generation amplified coax splitters? Any recommendations? Thanks!


Hi,
I searched for specifications on that electroline amp you are using and found this http://www.electroline.com/fact_sheets/eda/950-0061_EDA_Flat-Top_fact_sheet.pdf , which does not mention MoCA specs, but does have a MoCA Alliance logo on the document. It says nothing about having a builtin MoCA filter though so if you want to try setting up a MoCA network get one or more from Amazon or Ebay and install it on the input to the amp. 
I would just try enabling the MoCA on the Roamio, assuming it's a Plus or Pro, but use the "create a MoCA network" setting and then connect a mini where ever and use the "connect to a MoCA network" and see if you get it to work. 
I would order just one mini if you are concerned, but get it from a non-Tivo source as they are substantially cheaper online. Then give it a go. The filter will help give you a slightly stronger MoCA signal and is important for security. You may also need one if you use a TA and possibly one for your cable modem if it is not MoCA friendly.


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## epstewart

Fibber2 said:


> New here, and a search isn't helping. So here goes...
> 
> In the 2009 timeframe we finally got cable out here in the woods. I upgraded our TV system with an Electroline EDA-FT08300 8 port Drop Amp (a bidirectional amplified coax splitter), and a Tivo Series 3. This past fall we replaced the Series 3 with a Romeo Plus (6 tuner), and now want to replace some of our rented Comcast low def tuners with Tivo Mini units.
> 
> I have Ethernet to the main TV & Romeo, but not to the bedrooms. It could be done but it won't be easy, so I figured we'd just go MoCA. So far, so good.... Until I got on the phone with the TiVo tech line today to ask a few questions and he mentioned that they require 1.4 ghz bandwidth or it's 'crash & burn'. I went downstairs and sure enough the amp is only rated at 1005 mhz (1.005 ghz). That's a step up from the old 900 mhz splitter that was originally in the house, but unless the Electroline was very conservatively rated, probably not adequate for MoCA service?
> 
> Anyone have experience with using MoCA with these last generation amplified coax splitters? Any recommendations? Thanks!


No personal experience, but here's a pair of possible replacement amplifiers for you:

http://www.electroline.com/fact_sheets/eda/950-0135_EDA-2500MM_FACT_SHEET.pdf

You may or may not need to use a separate POE filter with those models, but those filters are very inexpensive.

You are aware, I hope, that you would need to run Ethernet from your Roamio Plus to your router in order to use the former to "create a MoCA network." Alternatively, you could buy a MoCA network adapter and hook it to your router and cable modem as (also) shown in the first post in this thread.

Though the amplifier you now have is not rated at a sufficiently high bandwidth to nominally be able to pass the MoCA signals, some of the posts in this thread have suggested that you can simply buy the Minis and then try and see. It may work! If it doesn't work, then you can replace the amp. One way or the other, you can definitely expect Minis-with-MoCA to work for you and save you the cost of those rented Comcast boxes. Good luck!


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## mdavej

Dumb question, but why do you need an amp at all? Just run CATV to the one DVR. Put the Minis on their own unamplified Moca network. I do this with 6 drops in a large house. Works perfectly.


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## Fibber2

Thanks guys. I guess the answer is to pick up a Mini and a POE blocker from Amazon, and try it out. Worst case I will have to figure out how to hide some Cat-5 cable to bypass the need for a better drop amp.

We built the house in 1999, and have a home run from most rooms back to the basement cable line in. I added a few dedicated coax lines (like to the Comcast Technicolor modem/wireless/4port in the 'office' on the other side of the house later, and 4 Ethernet lines out from there. All those coax lines get a beautiful +3db signal thanks to the Electroline. I opened walls in spots and used a 5 ft drill bit to bury it all. But I'm paying rent on several Comcast boxes or cablecards for the privilege. 

Edit: (original text removed) Are you saying to just go with an 8way passive splitter? -15 dB loss at each point, including my Modem? You find that works well?

I'll probably just try to invoke MoCA over the existing infrastructure, or add more Cat-5 where required. 

Can you have a mixed TiVo setup? One Mini entirely on Ethernet (no coax), another on MoCA?


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## epstewart

Fibber2 said:


> Can you have a mixed TiVo setup? One Mini entirely on Ethernet (no coax), another on MoCA?


Yes. There is no requirement that all your Minis be either on MoCA or on Ethernet. You can mix and match. You just set up each Mini either to "Connect using Ethernet" or "Connect using MoCA," as the case may be.


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## mdavej

Fibber2 said:


> Are you saying to just go with an 8way passive splitter? -15 dB loss at each point, including my Modem?


No, not exactly. I'm saying that only a couple of devices need the incoming signal from the cable company, namely one Tivo and your modem. I would do a 2-way splitter from the incoming cable to Tivo and modem. Connect the rest of your coax network however you want (if an 8-way splitter is required, that's fine). You simply need a way to connect some Moca adapter to your router and secondary coax network.


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## Fibber2

Slightly off the topic, but this morning's observation. Thinking back on it, I had Comcast to the house early on because of some modem performance issues. While the Electroline drop amp was recommended by Comcast as we live in a marginal signal area (since fixed by the installation of new buried cable to our house 600 ft from the road), they were critical of my placing the modem as one of the 8 drops off the amp.

With my permission they changed it to the following: Incoming line goes to what appears to be an unbalanced passive 2 way splitter. An Extreme BDC1106h. The OUTPUT (0 db side?) goes to the Modem, the TAP (-6 db) is going to the Electroline Drop amp, of which one of the outputs drives the Tivo Romeo Plus. So I'm boosting an attenuated signal before dividing it again. 

So far I haven't found a technical explanation of how this unbalanced passive divider works, and if this configuration is a good or bad idea.


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## fcfc2

"I guess the answer is to pick up a Mini and a POE blocker from Amazon, and try it out."
You already have your best first and possibly last step....it's also the cheapest.


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## snerd

Fibber2 said:


> Slightly off the topic, but this morning's observation. Thinking back on it, I had Comcast to the house early on because of some modem performance issues. While the Electroline drop amp was recommended by Comcast as we live in a marginal signal area (since fixed by the installation of new buried cable to our house 600 ft from the road), they were critical of my placing the modem as one of the 8 drops off the amp.
> 
> With my permission they changed it to the following: Incoming line goes to what appears to be an unbalanced passive 2 way splitter. An Extreme BDC1106h. The OUTPUT (0 db side?) goes to the Modem, the TAP (-6 db) is going to the Electroline Drop amp, of which one of the outputs drives the Tivo Romeo Plus. So I'm boosting an attenuated signal before dividing it again.
> 
> So far I haven't found a technical explanation of how this unbalanced passive divider works, and if this configuration is a good or bad idea.


They call this a "directional coupler" but your description "unbalanced passive 2 way splitter" is entirely accurate. It sends about 25% of the incoming RF power to the -6dB port, and the remaining ~75% of the power to the OUT port. This will given very strong signals to the modem to give optimum performance. Since you have an amplifier on the -6db tap, everything else in the system will have good signals as well.

From the modem's perspective, this connection is about as good as it gets. An ordinary 2-way splitter could have been used without a noticeable difference, but going through an amplifier is a bad idea for a DOCSIS modem unless the amplifier is specifically designed to pass the upstream signals (below 40MHz) back through the amplifier.


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## Fibber2

"but going through an amplifier is a bad idea for a DOCSIS modem unless the amplifier is specifically designed to pass the upstream signals (below 40MHz) back through the amplifier."

In theory it should have been OK as the Electroline has a 0 db gain return from 5 - 45 mhz, but the Comcast guy objected and I let him have his way. the change to a prior to the amp splitter didn't fix the modem issue (they eventually came back and replaced their modem) but it didn't seem to hurt TiVo or TV performance, so I left it as is. 

From what you said: 75% & 25% split isn't exactly 0 db & -6 db, but probably a good enough description. I'd love to see how they do this with non-powered passive components, but that's a discussion for another day.

The POE block would go prior to the TiVo/TV amp side of the splitter, I assume? No reason to have this prior to both the TiVo & modem?

And another question? Any thoughts about using Ethernet over Powerline in this application? Looking for a way to avoid running Cat 5 to a difficult side of the house.

Again, gentlemen, appreciate the education!


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## snerd

Fibber2 said:


> From what you said: 75% & 25% split isn't exactly 0 db & -6 db, but probably a good enough description. I'd love to see how they do this with non-powered passive components, but that's a discussion for another day.


The OUT port can't be 0dB, as that would violate conservation of energy. At best, the OUT would be 1.25dB, but it is likely to be close to 1.75dB or 2dB because there is always some RF power absorbed by the device.



> The POE block would go prior to the TiVo/TV amp side of the splitter, I assume? No reason to have this prior to both the TiVo & modem?


Right, that's where I'd put it.



> And another question? Any thoughts about using Ethernet over Powerline in this application? Looking for a way to avoid running Cat 5 to a difficult side of the house.
> 
> Again, gentlemen, appreciate the education!


Some people swear by powerline adapters, others swear at them. Depends a lot on the particular wiring in your house. MoCA is a much better option, if there is coax in place.


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## Boneless

I have 3 questions.

1) I have a Arris SB6183 cable modem that says it has a MoCa reject filter. Does that mean the best place for it is to go between the street coax and the rest of the house? 

2) Do I need to put a MoCa adapter on every coax line out of a splitter to different rooms? Or can I put a one MoCa adapter on one ethernet cable out of the router, leading to the splitter.

3) Does the number of splitters affect the bandwidth or does the number of active connections? If I use an 8-way splitter but only have a coax hooked up to 6, does that affect anything?


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## snerd

1) Not sure how you'd connect a modem "between" different sections of coax. Easiest modem connection is to use a 2-way splitter where the coax enters the house, and run coax from one output of the splitter to the modem.

2) I think the answer to this is "neither". Some systems don't need any MoCA adapters (say, using a Bolt or Roamio Plus/Pro or Premier XL4 to create the MoCA network, then connecting Minis in other rooms). If you have a Roamio Base/OTA or a 2-tuner Premiere that can't connect to ethernet directly, then you'll need a MoCA adapter for that TiVo and possibly a second MoCA adapter near your router. If you give us more detail about what you're trying to connect, we can be more specific.

3) Splitters divide the TV signal power evenly among the outputs of the splitter. So, splitters decrease the signal strength. If you only need to connect to 6 rooms, it is better to use a 6-way splitter rather than an 8-way splitter. Also, any unused splitter outputs should be capped with 75-ohm terminations in order to avoid signal reflections on the coax.

You will also want a MoCA PoE filter to confine the MoCA signals to the coax inside your house.


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## Boneless

snerd said:


> 1) Not sure how you'd connect a modem "between" different sections of coax. Easiest modem connection is to use a 2-way splitter where the coax enters the house, and run coax from one output of the splitter to the modem.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to ask is if the modem has a built-in reject filter, is that the same as a MoCa PoE filter so I can put it in between the street coax and then the router, and then a MoCa adapter to a splitter and the rest of the house.
> 
> 
> 2) I think the answer to this is "neither". Some systems don't need any MoCA adapters (say, using a Bolt or Roamio Plus/Pro or Premier XL4 to create the MoCA network, then connecting Minis in other rooms). If you have a Roamio Base/OTA or a 2-tuner Premiere that can't connect to ethernet directly, then you'll need a MoCA adapter for that TiVo and possibly a second MoCA adapter near your router. If you give us more detail about what you're trying to connect, we can be more specific.
> 
> I have a Roamio OTA and wanted to put a mini in another room. But my question is more about MoCa replacing ethernet networking. This supplements my first question in that can I put one MoCa adapter out of the router which then feeds into a splitter. Or is it better to use separate Ethernet cables from the router into separate MoCa adapters before the splitter for different rooms.
> 
> 
> 3) Splitters divide the TV signal power evenly among the outputs of the splitter. So, splitters decrease the signal strength. If you only need to connect to 6 rooms, it is better to use a 6-way splitter rather than an 8-way splitter. Also, any unused splitter outputs should be capped with 75-ohm terminations in order to avoid signal reflections on the coax.
> 
> You will also want a MoCA PoE filter to confine the MoCA signals to the coax inside your house.
> 
> Related to first question about needing a PoE filter with my Arris SB6183 modem.


replied above


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## fcfc2

Boneless said:


> I have 3 questions.
> 
> 1) I have a Arris SB6183 cable modem that says it has a MoCa reject filter. Does that mean the best place for it is to go between the street coax and the rest of the house?
> 
> 2) Do I need to put a MoCa adapter on every coax line out of a splitter to different rooms? Or can I put a one MoCa adapter on one ethernet cable out of the router, leading to the splitter.
> 
> 3) Does the number of splitters affect the bandwidth or does the number of active connections? If I use an 8-way splitter but only have a coax hooked up to 6, does that affect anything?


Hi,
There are several threads addressing using MoCA with an OTA setup. The first thing I would recommend is to keep the coax going to your cable modem isolated from any coax connected to the OTA antenna where you will be using MoCA. 
Side note, in this case, the builtin MoCA filter on the modem is not even a factor. The reason for the builtin filter on the modem on standard cable systems is to prevent the MoCA signals from causing interference to the cable modem/ internet signals. 
The recommended filter should be placed on the input to the splitter handing the OTA antenna signals. 
You will need either one or two MoCA adapters depending on how your Roamio gets it's connection to the internet. If you have an Ethernet connection to the Roamio, then one adapter connected to the OTA coax and it's Ethernet connected to the router will suffice. It the Roamio is remote from the router, no Ethernet, then you will need an additional adapter with an OTA coax connection and the Ethernet to your Roamio.


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## snerd

> I guess what I'm trying to ask is if the modem has a built-in reject filter, is that the same as a MoCa PoE filter so I can put it in between the street coax and then the router, and then a MoCa adapter to a splitter and the rest of the house.


So the coax feeding into the house is only for internet access through the SB6183. Just connect that directly to the modem, no splitters involved on that coax, and there will be no MoCA signals touching the modem. The built-in MoCA filter on the modem is helpful when coax is bringing in catv signals along with DOCSIS signals for the modem, and MoCA is added to that same coax.



> I have a Roamio OTA and wanted to put a mini in another room. But my question is more about MoCa replacing ethernet networking. This supplements my first question in that can I put one MoCa adapter out of the router which then feeds into a splitter. Or is it better to use separate Ethernet cables from the router into separate MoCa adapters before the splitter for different rooms.


You only want one connection from your router to a single MoCA adapter. That MoCA adapter bridges the ethernet signals between your router and the coax in your house. You can think of the MoCA signals sort of like WiFi over coax -- all MoCA devices that connect to the same coax "tree" can talk to each other, so MoCA extends your LAN to parts of the house that don't have Cat5e/Cat6 access.

The PoE filter should be attached to the input of the splitter, so that coax from the antenna connects to the other side of the PoE filter. Then your coax will have both OTA and MoCA signals.

*Scenario #1: *If the Roamio happens to be in the same room as your router, then you only need one MoCA adapter. Coax from the splitter/wall connects to the "Coax In" port of the MoCA adapter, then run coax from the "STB/TV" port of the MoCA adapter to the Roamio. The Roamio and MoCA adapter Run Cat5e/Cat6 cables from the router to the MoCA adapter and to the Roamio.

*Scenario #2: *If the Roamio is in a different room than the router, then you will need two MoCA adapters. For the MoCA adapter near the router, connect coax from the splitter/wall to the "Coax In" port on the MoCA adapter, and attach a 75-ohm termination to the "STB/TV Out" port. For the MoCA adapter near the Roamio, connect coax from the splitter/wall to the "Coax In" port on the MoCA adapter, and run a short coax from the "STB/TV Out" port to the Roamio. Connect a Cat5e/Cat6 cable from the MoCA adapter to the Roamio. Another option here is to connect the ethernet port of the MoCA adapter to an ethernet switch, then connect from the switch to the Roamio, so that other devices can share the MoCA adapter.

The Mini connects directly to coax.


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## epstewart

Boneless said:


> I have 3 questions.
> 
> 1) I have a Arris SB6183 cable modem that says it has a MoCa reject filter. Does that mean the best place for it is to go between the street coax and the rest of the house?
> 
> 2) Do I need to put a MoCa adapter on every coax line out of a splitter to different rooms? Or can I put a one MoCa adapter on one ethernet cable out of the router, leading to the splitter.
> 
> 3) Does the number of splitters affect the bandwidth or does the number of active connections? If I use an 8-way splitter but only have a coax hooked up to 6, does that affect anything?


Boneless,

You say in a later post that you want to MoCA-connect a Roamio OTA with a Mini. Neither of those can "create" a MoCA network, so one option is to get a MoCA network adapter for the Roamio OTA (because it is not MoCA-ready) and another MoCA adapter for placement near the modem and router (to create your MoCA network).

There are two types of MoCA adapters you can consider. The first type is typified by the Actiontec ECB2500C (see here at Amazon.com). This adapter used to be sold, rebranded, at the TiVo website, but it has been superseded by the TiVo Bridge (see below).

Let's say you will get an adapter of this first type for placement in your office near your modem and router. This type of MoCA adapter has a coax input, an Ethernet output that would connect to one of your router's LAN ports, and a coax output that would connect to your cable modem.

A second MoCA adapter of this same type could be connected to your Roamio OTA, with the adapter's Ethernet port being cabled to the Roamio's Ethernet port. You would hook the coax feed from your OTA antenna to the coax input of the Roamio OTA. The coax output from the MoCA adapter would not be connected to anything. This second adapter would let your Roamio OTA join the MoCA network created by the first adapter.

***

The other type of MoCA adapter you can consider is typified by the Actiontec ECB6000, the hookup instructions for which are here. This adapter, rebranded, is being sold by TiVo as the TiVo Bridge (more info on the TiVo Bridge is here). It differs from the first type of MoCA adapter in that it does not have a coax output  just a coax input and an Ethernet output. I am attaching a diagram showing hookup for this type of adapter.

A good thing about this newer type of adapter is that it is MoCA 2.0-capable. That won't matter much to you now, but it may come in handy for you in the future if you upgrade to MoCA 2.0-capable TiVo units.

A connection problem with this newer type of adapter is that, if you put one in your office, you'd have to two-way-split the coax coming into it, with one output from the splitter going to the MoCA adapter and the other output from the splitter going to your cable modem. The Ethernet output from the office MoCA adapter would go to a LAN port on your router.

This hookup problem would not affect the use of a TiVo Bridge-type adapter with your Roamio, since you would be hooking the coax lead-in from your OTA antenna to the coax input on the Roamio, anyway.

BTW, you could conceivably get a MoCA adapter of the first type for one location and a MoCA adapter of the second type for the other. You could mix and match.

***

Another possibility is to get just one MoCA adapter that you would place near your Roamio OTA. For the room where the Roamio OTA resides, you would also get an Ethernet switch such as the TP-LINK TL-SG105. You would run non-antenna coax to the adapter's coax input connection. (The coax input from your antenna would hook to the Roamios coax input, but not to the MoCA adapter, even if the adapter is of the first type and has a coax output port.) The Ethernet output from the adapter would be connected to the switch. From the Ethernet switch you would also run Cat5/Cat6 cable to the Ethernet port on the Roamio. Also from the switch, Cat5/Cat6 cable would be run to a LAN port on your router (I assume in an adjoining room). From the router's WAN port you would (continue to) run Ethernet cable to the cable modem's Ethernet input. The modem would receive its coax input just as it does now.

In this hookup, it would be the MoCA adapter near your Roamio that would "create" your MoCA network. (Why? There would be no MoCA adapter placed near your router and cable modem.)

The advantages: (1) The Ethernet switch is a lot cheaper than a second MoCA network adapter, even when you consider the cost of extra Cat5/Cat6 cables you might have to buy. (2) With the switch, you could connect other gear, for instance a PlayStation that resides in the same room as the Roamio, into your MoCA/Ethernet hookup, thereby getting that other gear online without Wi-Fi.

The disadvantage: You'd have to run Ethernet cable, room to room, from where your Roamio is to where your router is. (But if you already have an Ethernet outlet in the room with the Roamio, you could simply run Ethernet cable from the switch to that outlet, instead of room-to-room to where your router is.)

***

What about the use of a PoE filter? Im no expert here, but it looks to me like the MoCA reject filter of your Arris cable modem would not be sufficient. You probably need to put a PoE filter on the coax lead-in from your OTA antenna where it comes into your house.

As for MoCA-isolating the coax network that exists in the rest of your house, I assume you already have (or will have) a network that is separate from and isolated from the coax lead-in coming in from your antenna. That separate coax network is what will feed your cable modem and also your Mini. For that separate coax network, you probably should install a PoE filter as near as possible to where the coax comes into your house. You want to make sure that the MoCA-okay devices in your house  the MoCA adapter(s), any splitters you use, etc.  are all on the inside of this filter. If you wind up with a MoCA adapter and a coax splitter in your office, for instance, there would be a coaxial signal path to the outside world that would bypass your cable modem. So the modems MoCA reject filter would not alone hold your MoCA signals inside your home, and you would be well advised to have that extra PoE filter in place.

***

So. One or possibly two MoCA network adapters, of whichever type mentioned above; possibly a two-way coax splitter for your office, if you opt for a TiVo Bridge-type MoCA adapter for the office; a PoE filter for your antenna; possibly a PoE filter for your home's non-antenna coax network; and possibly an Ethernet switch that would obviate using an office MoCA adapter (along with some extra Cat5/Cat6 cables), and you will be in business. And of course, the TiVo Mini.

Id say you really need to sit down with pencil and paper and sketch out how you want to hook all this stuff up, depending on which options described above you want to choose.

Good luck with it all!


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## snerd

epstewart said:


> Let's say you will get an adapter of this first type for placement in your office near your modem and router. This type of MoCA adapter has a coax input, an Ethernet output that would connect to one of your router's LAN ports, and a coax output that would *connect to your cable modem.*
> 
> ***
> 
> The other type of MoCA adapter you can consider is typified by the Actiontec ECB6000,
> 
> A connection problem with this newer type of adapter is that, if you put one in your office, you'd have to two-way-split the coax coming into it, with one output from the splitter going to the MoCA adapter and the *other output from the splitter going to your cable modem.*


Since the coax feeding into the OP's house is only for internet access, that coax can simply connect directly to the modem. No need for the DOCSIS signals to touch any MoCA adapter, and no benefits from adding the extra splitter(s) that would be required to facilitate such a connection.

Connecting the OTA antenna directly to the Roamio is certainly worth considering, since that would give the best OTA signal strength. However, if OTA signals are desired at other locations in the house, then the connections described in my prior post allow both OTA and MoCA signals throughout the house.

I'm sure there are other viable solutions as well.


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## epstewart

snerd said:


> Since the coax feeding into the OP's house is only for internet access, that coax can simply connect directly to the modem. No need for the DOCSIS signals to touch any MoCA adapter, and no benefits from adding the extra splitter(s) that would be required to facilitate such a connection.
> 
> Connecting the OTA antenna directly to the Roamio is certainly worth considering, since that would give the best OTA signal strength. However, if OTA signals are desired at other locations in the house, then the connections described in my prior post allow both OTA and MoCA signals throughout the house.
> 
> I'm sure there are other viable solutions as well.


In the OP's office, if the Internet coax feed goes to the cable modem alone, without being split, then there would have to be a separate coax feed in that same office for the MoCA network adapter, no? That separate coax feed would need to be output from a common splitter whose other outputs go to the Roamio's MoCA adapter and to the Mini. I'm not sure, from what the OP has said, that all that is going to be the case. I'd like to ask the OP to clarify, in particular, whether there could indeed be two separate coax lines in the office.

If there couldn't, then I assume the OP's Internet feed would be tied in via a common splitter with the rest of the coax in the house and there would be only a single coax line into the office ... in which case, if the OP wants to use a TiVo Bridge-type MoCA adapter in the office, an extra splitter would also be needed in the office as well.

Anyway, is there any real advantage to isolating DOCSIS data signals arriving via the Internet away from MoCA signals traveling inside the house. Do the two signals interfere with one another? My own setup uses a MoCA-capable router-modem-combo unit that affords no way to isolate MoCA from DOCSIS, and AFAIK that poses no problem.


----------



## fcfc2

epstewart said:


> In the OP's office, if the Internet coax feed goes to the cable modem alone, without being split, then there would have to be a separate coax feed in that same office for the MoCA network adapter, no? That separate coax feed would need to be output from a common splitter whose other outputs go to the Roamio's MoCA adapter and to the Mini. I'm not sure, from what the OP has said, that all that is going to be the case. I'd like to ask the OP to clarify, in particular, whether there could indeed be two separate coax lines in the office.
> 
> If there couldn't, then I assume the OP's Internet feed would be tied in via a common splitter with the rest of the coax in the house and there would be only a single coax line into the office ... in which case, if the OP wants to use a TiVo Bridge-type MoCA adapter in the office, an extra splitter would also be needed in the office as well.
> 
> Anyway, is there any real advantage to isolating DOCSIS data signals arriving via the Internet away from MoCA signals traveling inside the house. Do the two signals interfere with one another? My own setup uses a MoCA-capable router-modem-combo unit that affords no way to isolate MoCA from DOCSIS, and AFAIK that poses no problem.


The OP does not need a separate coax in his office that connects to the OTA antenna legs, the cable modem needs an Ethernet cable that connects to his router wherever it is located. The MoCA adapter connecting to the OTA legs also needs an Ethernet connection to his router/switch.
Cable companies, according to FCC requirements, used to have to do a "sweep" of their lines annually to determine if there was any "signal leakage" from their lines/equipment which would possibly interfere with OTA signals. Likewise, cable systems go to great lengths via shielding and other methods to prevent OTA and other rf from interfering with their signals, so it would seem elementary that connecting OTA signals directly to a common coax is going to cause some kind of problems/issues to the cable companies signals above and beyond the need to prevent MoCA frequencies from back feeding to their lines.
A MoCA filter on the cable companies feed from them to your cable modem will prevent those MoCA frequencies from back feeding to their system, but this would not do anything to prevent the OTA signals from being fed back up to their equipment. 
I have seen several posts questioning even the need for a MoCA filter on their systems because everything seems to be "working" for "them." I also know of a couple folks who have come home to find their cable/internet was disconnected and a door tag saying their line was disconnected due to "interference" coming from their home. 
"AFAIK" it is a poor practice to allow cable and OTA signals on a common coax system. Sometimes to do it right, you might have to disable the MoCA on a Gateway router, and invest in a separate MoCA adapter.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> In the OP's office, if the Internet coax feed goes to the cable modem alone, without being split, then there would have to be a separate coax feed in that same office for the MoCA network adapter, no? That separate coax feed would need to be output from a common splitter whose other outputs go to the Roamio's MoCA adapter and to the Mini. I'm not sure, from what the OP has said, that all that is going to be the case. I'd like to ask the OP to clarify, in particular, whether there could indeed be two separate coax lines in the office.


I agree, we really need more information in order to be sure our suggestions even make sense. It is pretty likely that we're all making different assumptions about how the coax is layed out (possibly based on our own setups), and giving different advice based on our different assumptions.



> If there couldn't, then I assume the OP's Internet feed would be tied in via a common splitter with the rest of the coax in the house and there would be only a single coax line into the office ... in which case, if the OP wants to use a TiVo Bridge-type MoCA adapter in the office, an extra splitter would also be needed in the office as well.


True. Another complication to keep in mind is that the cable feed is likely to also have catv signals that the OP isn't using, and they will clash with OTA signals if they are tied onto the same coax. The best solution depends on a lot of factors, and we just don't have enough information yet.



> Anyway, is there any real advantage to isolating DOCSIS data signals arriving via the Internet away from MoCA signals traveling inside the house. Do the two signals interfere with one another? My own setup uses a MoCA-capable router-modem-combo unit that affords no way to isolate MoCA from DOCSIS, and AFAIK that poses no problem.


One advantage of connecting the main feed directly to the modem is that it provides the cleanest possible signals for the modem. Once you go through a splitter, the signals going in both directions are attenuated by the splitter, which has the potential to reduce the data rate. Since this feed is only used for the modem, there is nothing to gain by feeding those signals to the coax throughout the house, unless (more speculation) the OP might decide to un-cut the cord in the future.

DOCSIS signals don't interfere with MoCA signals, but this separation absolutely guarantees that no MoCA signals reach the main feed, and also guarantees that no OTA signals can clash with catv signals that are likely to be present alongside the DOCSIS signals.

Of course, connecting the OTA antenna directly to TiVo also gives a clean separation. So, the best solution really just depends on whether the OP may want the OTA signals to go elsewhere, etc.


----------



## snerd

fcfc2 said:


> A MoCA filter on the cable companies feed from them to your cable modem will prevent those MoCA frequencies from back feeding to their system, but this would not do anything to prevent the OTA signals from being fed back up to their equipment.


Much worse -- if OTA and catv signals are tied on the same coax without taking special precautions, then the catv signals can/will reach the OTA antenna and be broadcast all over the neighborhood. The FCC and/or the cable company won't be happy about that.



> I have seen several posts questioning even the need for a MoCA filter on their systems because everything seems to be "working" for "them." I also know of a couple folks who have come home to find their cable/internet was disconnected and a door tag saying their line was disconnected due to "interference" coming from their home.


I think this depends somewhat on how much coax there is between you and your neightbors. In an apartment building or where homes are really close together, interference is a much bigger problem than it would be in neighborhoods will large houses that are spaced far apart. MoCA signals attenuate fast enough that spacing matters. My brother doesn't use a MoCA filter, and hasn't had any issues or complaints. I think he'd probably benefit from one, but I'm not going to fight him over it.



> "AFAIK" it is a poor practice to allow cable and OTA signals on a common coax system. Sometimes to do it right, you might have to disable the MoCA on a Gateway router, and invest in a separate MoCA adapter.


It is technically possible to mix some OTA signals with some catv signals on the same coax, but doing so requires playing games with diplexers in order to ensure that no two signals at the same frequency ever clash.


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## Boneless

I attached a jpg of my current layout. It's weird in that there's a separate coax run from one bedroom back to the kitchen and living room through the same outlet. Another separate outlet leads to the 4-way splitter. The only problem is that this bedroom coax outlet to the 4 way splitter is on the opposite side of the room from the other coax outlet that leads to the kitchen and family room.

I attached pics of my current setup, proposed modem between street and house room splitter, and sharing the DOCSIS line to living room(my preferred option). I want for the DOCSIS and MoCA to share the coax to the living room and back since my wireless has better coverage than if the router is placed before the house room splitter.

I only have an OTA coax directly to the Roamio OTA so the tv signal will not share the main coax as the MoCA. The Roamio is ethernet connected to my network and how I intend to connect a tivo mini in the downstairs family room. I also don't subscribe to cable tv, only internet.

Edit - sorry for the small pics, first time using MS paint and attaching a jpg to this forum


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## snerd

Thanks for posting the diagrams, they help a lot.

If I'm reading your diagrams correctly, then you don't need the 2-way splitter in the living room. Instead, remove the connection to the input of that splitter and connect it to the "Coax In" port of the MoCA adapter, and connect the "STB/TV Out" port to the modem. Be careful to connect the coax from the wall to the "Coax In" port, because the MoCA adapter only sends MoCA signals to the "Coax In" port, so if it isn't connected correctly the MoCA network won't work. The DOCSIS signals will pass through the adapter to the modem.

Add a MoCA PoE filter at the input of the 2-way splitter. MoCA signals coming up from the MoCA adapter will reflect off the PoE filter and go back down to all of the other rooms.

As long as the ethernet connection to the Roamio is a wired connection to the router, you can connect the mini to the coax in any of the other rooms and everything should work fine.

The coax ports that don't connect to a TV, Mini or other equipment should each be capped with a 75-ohm termination to prevent reflections on the coax.


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## Boneless

snerd said:


> Thanks for posting the diagrams, they help a lot.
> 
> If I'm reading your diagrams correctly, then you don't need the 2-way splitter in the living room. Instead, remove the connection to the input of that splitter and connect it to the "Coax In" port of the MoCA adapter, and connect the "STB/TV Out" port to the modem. Be careful to connect the coax from the wall to the "Coax In" port, because the MoCA adapter only sends MoCA signals to the "Coax In" port, so if it isn't connected correctly the MoCA network won't work. The DOCSIS signals will pass through the adapter to the modem.
> 
> Add a MoCA PoE filter at the input of the 2-way splitter. MoCA signals coming up from the MoCA adapter will reflect off the PoE filter and go back down to all of the other rooms.
> 
> As long as the ethernet connection to the Roamio is a wired connection to the router, you can connect the mini to the coax in any of the other rooms and everything should work fine.
> 
> The coax ports that don't connect to a TV, Mini or other equipment should each be capped with a 75-ohm termination to prevent reflections on the coax.


I need to clarify the diagrams a little. In my current coax setup, the first 2-way splitter is in the laundry sitting next to the 4-way splitter. Coax all run from here to rooms in the house. In total, my current setup only has one 2-way splitter and one 4-way splitter.

I understand what you're trying to say. But I forgot to include the router in the diagram next to the modem. So wouldn't I need an ethernet connection between the modem to the router, and then another ethernet to MoCA adapter, and then lead to a splitter to send the signal back down the same coax that led up to the modem? That was my reasoning for a 2-way splitter in the living room. This would let the DOCSIS signal up to the 2-way splitter(coax) -> modem (ethernet) -> router (ethernet) -> MoCA adapter (coax) -> back to 2-way splitter (coax) -> laundry room( coax 4-way splitter)


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## snerd

Boneless said:


> I need to clarify the diagrams a little. In my current coax setup, the first 2-way splitter is in the laundry sitting next to the 4-way splitter. Coax all run from here to rooms in the house. In total, my current setup only has one 2-way splitter and one 4-way splitter.


My comments were based on you "proposed MoCA setup" diagram with the 2-way splitter in the living room. That splitter can be elimiinated as I described, if you are using a MoCA adapter that has both the "Coax In" port and the "STB/TV Out" port. If you use a MoCA adapter that has only one coax port, then you will need the splitter. You can still use the 2-way splitter in the living room with a MoCA adapter that has two coax ports, but in that case you will need a 75-ohm termination on the unused "STB/TV Out" port. The connection that I described avoids the 2-way splitter and the 75-ohm termination and also results in stronger DOCSIS signals to/from the modem and stronger MoCA signals. The signals are stronger because the 2-way splitter drops signals strength to a little less than half whenever any signal passes through it in either direction.



> I understand what you're trying to say. But I forgot to include the router in the diagram next to the modem. So wouldn't I need an ethernet connection between the modem to the router, and then another ethernet to MoCA adapter, and then lead to a splitter to send the signal back down the same coax that led up to the modem? That was my reasoning for a 2-way splitter in the living room. This would let the DOCSIS signal up to the 2-way splitter(coax) -> modem (ethernet) -> router (ethernet) -> MoCA adapter (coax) -> back to 2-way splitter (coax) -> laundry room( coax 4-way splitter)


Yes, you need an ethernet connection between the modem and router, and between the router and the MoCA adapter. Assuming the Roamio is in the living room, you also need an ethernet connection from the router to the Roamio. If the Roamio is somewhere else, you need either a direct ethernet connection or another MoCA adapter for the Roamio.

I don't understand what you are saying about DOCSIS signals. DOCSIS signals only exist on coax, and the modem is the only device in your setup that needs DOCSIS signals. Your cable modem converts DOCSIS signals to/from ethernet signals that are exchanged with the router.

In terms of data packets from the internet to your Roamio, the path without the 2-way splitter in the living room would be:



Code:


internet DOCSIS -> coax into house -> 2-way in laundry room 
  -> "Coax In" [MoCA adapter] "STB/TV Out" -> modem (convert DOCSIS to ethernet)
  -> router -> cat5e to MoCA adapter (convert to MoCA signal on "Coax In")
  -> 2-way in laundry room -> PoE filter -> reflects back down through splitters to MoCA devices


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## Boneless

snerd said:


> My comments were based on you "proposed MoCA setup" diagram with the 2-way splitter in the living room. That splitter can be elimiinated as I described, if you are using a MoCA adapter that has both the "Coax In" port and the "STB/TV Out" port. If you use a MoCA adapter that has only one coax port, then you will need the splitter. You can still use the 2-way splitter in the living room with a MoCA adapter that has two coax ports, but in that case you will need a 75-ohm termination on the unused "STB/TV Out" port. The connection that I described avoids the 2-way splitter and the 75-ohm termination and also results in stronger DOCSIS signals to/from the modem and stronger MoCA signals. The signals are stronger because the 2-way splitter drops signals strength to a little less than half whenever any signal passes through it in either direction.
> 
> Yes, you need an ethernet connection between the modem and router, and between the router and the MoCA adapter. Assuming the Roamio is in the living room, you also need an ethernet connection from the router to the Roamio. If the Roamio is somewhere else, you need either a direct ethernet connection or another MoCA adapter for the Roamio.
> 
> I don't understand what you are saying about DOCSIS signals. DOCSIS signals only exist on coax, and the modem is the only device in your setup that needs DOCSIS signals. Your cable modem converts DOCSIS signals to/from ethernet signals that are exchanged with the router.
> 
> In terms of data packets from the internet to your Roamio, the path without the 2-way splitter in the living room would be:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> internet DOCSIS -> coax into house -> 2-way in laundry room
> -> "Coax In" [MoCA adapter] "STB/TV Out" -> modem (convert DOCSIS to ethernet)
> -> router -> cat5e to MoCA adapter (convert to MoCA signal on "Coax In")
> -> 2-way in laundry room -> PoE filter -> reflects back down through splitters to MoCA devices


When I refer to DOCSIS signal, I'm using it to mean internet signal.

In your diagram, I was assuming I would need a coax out of the "cat5e to MoCA adapter (convert to MoCA signal on "Coax In)". This is where I thought I would need a splitter after this connection, to then connect to the same coax leading up from the laundry room.

I think I clearly understand now. I broke it down into another diagram for the living room. You're saying there's going to be three connections in/out of the MoCA adapter to eliminate using a splitter.


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## epstewart

Boneless said:


> When I refer to DOCSIS signal, I'm using it to mean internet signal.
> 
> In your diagram, I was assuming I would need a coax out of the "cat5e to MoCA adapter (convert to MoCA signal on "Coax In)". This is where I thought I would need a splitter after this connection, to then connect to the same coax leading up from the laundry room.
> 
> I think I clearly understand now. I broke it down into another diagram for the living room. You're saying there's going to be three connections in/out of the MoCA adapter to eliminate using a splitter.


Your diagram looks correct as long as you plan to use the older type of MoCA adapter that actually has the STB/TV Out coax port. As I said in an earlier post, the newest adapter being sold by TiVo, the TiVo Bridge, lacks that port. If you use that kind of adapter, you would need to use a two-way splitter between the coaxial input from the laundry room and the MoCA adapter. One coax output of the splitter would go to the cable modem, and the other to the MoCA adapter. Out of the MoCA adapter would come an Ethernet cable that runs to one of your router's LAN ports. Out of the router's WAN port would come another Ethernet cable that runs to your cable modem.


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## Boneless

epstewart said:


> Your diagram looks correct as long as you plan to use the older type of MoCA adapter that actually has the STB/TV Out coax port. As I said in an earlier post, the newest adapter being sold by TiVo, the TiVo Bridge, lacks that port. If you use that kind of adapter, you would need to use a two-way splitter between the coaxial input from the laundry room and the MoCA adapter. One coax output of the splitter would go to the cable modem, and the other to the MoCA adapter. Out of the MoCA adapter would come an Ethernet cable that runs to one of your router's LAN ports. Out of the router's WAN port would come another Ethernet cable that runs to your cable modem.


Are you sure about needing the older MoCA adapter? I was looking at maybe using the Actiontec ECB6200 which is the newest MoCA 2.0 standard and bonded. It has a TV/STB out port.

http://www.actiontec.com/339.html


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## epstewart

Boneless said:


> Are you sure about needing the older MoCA adapter? I was looking at maybe using the Actiontec ECB6200 which is the newest MoCA 2.0 standard and bonded. It has a TV/STB out port.
> 
> http://www.actiontec.com/339.html


Yes, that Actiontec ECB6200 looks like a good choice and would not need an extra splitter. You can get it at Amazon for $89.99. I didn't mean to imply that you need an adapter that lacks a TV/STB Out port, just that if you got one like that, a splitter would be needed.

Out of curiosity, would it be possible for you to run a separate coax line to carry MoCA to/from the room with the router and cable modem, so you could isolate the cable modem from the MoCA adapter, as snerd suggested? That would be ideal, especially if you also refrain from hooking your OTA antenna feed into your MoCA network. The antenna would hook only to your Roamio. Is that a possibility? Because then your MoCA hookup would be "pure" and would not connect to the "outside world" via either your antenna or your Internet feed, and I don't think you would have to use any PoE filters ...


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## Boneless

epstewart said:


> Yes, that Actiontec ECB6200 looks like a good choice and would not need an extra splitter. You can get it at Amazon for $89.99. I didn't mean to imply that you need an adapter that lacks a TV/STB Out port, just that if you got one like that, a splitter would be needed.
> 
> Out of curiosity, would it be possible for you to run a separate coax line to carry MoCA to/from the room with the router and cable modem, so you could isolate the cable modem from the MoCA adapter, as snerd suggested? That would be ideal, especially if you also refrain from hooking your OTA antenna feed into your MoCA network. The antenna would hook only to your Roamio. Is that a possibility? Because then your MoCA hookup would be "pure" and would not connect to the "outside world" via either your antenna or your Internet feed, and I don't think you would have to use any PoE filters ...


The separate MoCA hookup is not possible. That's pretty much why I started looking into if the DOCSIS signal and MoCA signal can share a coax. The coax is run inside the frame of my house without any conduit and runs from my 2nd floor family room, diagonal and across to my main house splitters on the first floor. If that coax ever fails, I'll need to run a new one outside the house. I do have a centralized vacuum system hookup that I don't use, which could double as a conduit. I thought about this already and tried to shove a CAT6 cable through but it wouldn't follow it. Maybe some type of pullcable might work but the hookups are not really located where I want them.


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## snerd

Boneless said:


> I think I clearly understand now. I broke it down into another diagram for the living room. You're saying there's going to be three connections in/out of the MoCA adapter to eliminate using a splitter.


I'm confused by your diagram because it shows 3 pieces of coax when you should only need two. The coax from the laundry room connects to the "Coax In" port of the MoCA adapter. Another piece of coax runs from the "STB/TV Out" port of the MoCA adapter to the cable modem.

The ethernet connections in your diagram are correct.


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## epstewart

snerd said:


> I'm confused by your diagram because it shows 3 pieces of coax when you should only need two. The coax from the laundry room connects to the "Coax In" port of the MoCA adapter. Another piece of coax runs from the "STB/TV Out" port of the MoCA adapter to the cable modem.
> 
> The ethernet connections in your diagram are correct.


The "coax" from the "MoCA adapter" to the "STB/TV out" in the diagram is not needed ...!


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## Boneless

snerd said:


> I'm confused by your diagram because it shows 3 pieces of coax when you should only need two. The coax from the laundry room connects to the "Coax In" port of the MoCA adapter. Another piece of coax runs from the "STB/TV Out" port of the MoCA adapter to the cable modem.
> 
> The ethernet connections in your diagram are correct.





epstewart said:


> The "coax" from the "MoCA adapter" to the "STB/TV out" in the diagram is not needed ...!


Got it! I currently have 1Ghz splitters, do I need anything higher than that? Is there any difference in POE filters?


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## epstewart

Boneless said:


> Got it! I currently have 1Ghz splitters, do I need anything higher than that? Is there any difference in POE filters?


I don't know about possible differences in PoE filters, but all your splitters should ideally have a bandwidth that extends to 1675 MHz. 1000 MHz (1 GHz) is theoretically not enough. However, some users have reported that MoCA works OK for them with 1 GHz splitters, so you could try keeping the splitters you have. Still, if it were me, I would just replace all the splitters right away.


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## snerd

Boneless said:


> Is there any difference in POE filters?


Technically, some PoE filters are better than others, but for your particular situation the differences are probably insignificant. Some systems will even function without a PoE filter, but having one can make a big difference in the strength of MoCA signals.


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## flar

I'm looking at the new MoCA 2.0 adapters and wondering if they can help me out.

I have a working network right now with:

Actiontec ECB2500C in the den bridging my router/broadband to the coax
Roamio in Living Room serving as a MoCA bridge for other media devices in the same cabinet
Motorola SBM1400 MoCA to 4-port ethernet switch in bedroom for TiVo Mini + 3 other network media devices (the Mini uses the SBM1400 rather than its own MoCA there)
It works fairly well, but the speed of downloading things from the den to my PS4 in the LR is not noticeably faster than it can get with WiFi (though that may be due to Sony's overloaded servers). I can stream things just fine in the bedroom, but occasionally Plex on my FireTV will drop a video stream when I ffwd/rew in a video and I have to restart it. I don't remember the numbers off hand, but I recall that the TCP/IP latency over the 1.1 adapters I have was pretty mediocre and I've always wondered if that isn't having an impact on my occasional Plex problems.

Now I see that TiVo is providing newer MoCA adapters which look like the Actiontex 2.0 devices (just judging by looks since the TiVo product page is devoid of any specs). I'm wondering if its worth getting a pair/3 of these and seeing if it improves my throughput and reliability, but I have some questions...

The latency figures for 2.0 look better, but not by a lot. It can't hurt, but I'm not sure if I could expect to notice anything in terms of my Plex reliability and speed of loading a bunch of thumbnails. I also do network gaming with my PS4 so the lower latency there could be nice.
They claim backwards compatibility, but is it all rosy in practice? I'm assuming that compatibility in this case means that I can leave the LR using the Roamio as a bridge and upgrade the den and BR to 2.0 and those two will communicate at the higher rates while they communicate to the LR at 1.1 speeds. I'll probably just upgrade all 3 anyway, but I'm curious what to expect with that.
Are the bonded 2.0 adapters which give twice the speed only used in pairs, or can I have 3 bonded 2.0 adapters to get nice bandwidth to/from all 3 points?
I also helped a friend install a MoCA network for her Roamio + 2 Minis and she occasionally has connection problems between them. Would 2.0 adapters help any with reliability? (One day I'm going to crawl around under her house and see if the tree of splitters between them is sane or not, but until then...)


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## fcfc2

flar said:


> I'm looking at the new MoCA 2.0 adapters and wondering if they can help me out.
> 
> I have a working network right now with:
> 
> Actiontec ECB2500C in the den bridging my router/broadband to the coax
> Roamio in Living Room serving as a MoCA bridge for other media devices in the same cabinet
> Motorola SBM1400 MoCA to 4-port ethernet switch in bedroom for TiVo Mini + 3 other network media devices (the Mini uses the SBM1400 rather than its own MoCA there)
> It works fairly well, but the speed of downloading things from the den to my PS4 in the LR is not noticeably faster than it can get with WiFi (though that may be due to Sony's overloaded servers). I can stream things just fine in the bedroom, but occasionally Plex on my FireTV will drop a video stream when I ffwd/rew in a video and I have to restart it. I don't remember the numbers off hand, but I recall that the TCP/IP latency over the 1.1 adapters I have was pretty mediocre and I've always wondered if that isn't having an impact on my occasional Plex problems.
> 
> Now I see that TiVo is providing newer MoCA adapters which look like the Actiontex 2.0 devices (just judging by looks since the TiVo product page is devoid of any specs). I'm wondering if its worth getting a pair/3 of these and seeing if it improves my throughput and reliability, but I have some questions...
> 
> The latency figures for 2.0 look better, but not by a lot. It can't hurt, but I'm not sure if I could expect to notice anything in terms of my Plex reliability and speed of loading a bunch of thumbnails. I also do network gaming with my PS4 so the lower latency there could be nice.
> They claim backwards compatibility, but is it all rosy in practice? I'm assuming that compatibility in this case means that I can leave the LR using the Roamio as a bridge and upgrade the den and BR to 2.0 and those two will communicate at the higher rates while they communicate to the LR at 1.1 speeds. I'll probably just upgrade all 3 anyway, but I'm curious what to expect with that.
> Are the bonded 2.0 adapters which give twice the speed only used in pairs, or can I have 3 bonded 2.0 adapters to get nice bandwidth to/from all 3 points?
> I also helped a friend install a MoCA network for her Roamio + 2 Minis and she occasionally has connection problems between them. Would 2.0 adapters help any with reliability? (One day I'm going to crawl around under her house and see if the tree of splitters between them is sane or not, but until then...)


Hi,
I'll try to answer some of your questions. MoCA 2.0 comes in 2 versions, the standard and the "bonded", if you decide to go all in (3) I would go for the slightly higher priced "bonded" ones, roughly the difference between 400Mbps vs 700+ Mbps. MoCA 2.0 and 1.1 are compatible but MoCA 2.0 and MoCA 1.0 are not. As you suspected with most MoCA 1.1 devices any network traffic in or out is limited to MoCA 1.1 speeds but if the traffic is between 2 MoCA 2.0 legs you will get the 2.0 speeds. I have found only one MoCA 1.1 device so far that will drop the entire network down to 1.1 speeds on mixed network, it is the WCB3000N network extender.
I can't speak to any potential latency gains between the 2 MoCA standards, just don't know. 
MoCA is a "shared" medium, meaning those numbers are the total for all concurrent MoCA network traffic. 
If you are going to upgrade to all MoCA 2.0 devices, you will need all 3 of the same type, and right now you would have to get a small gigabit switch in addition to replace that Motorola 4 port adapter.
I doubt that the Plex issue is MoCA related as a "properly" running MoCA 1.1 network is roughly the same as Cat 5, or fast Ethernet, which should be able to easily handle that traffic IMO.
Before diving in on 3 bonded adapters and a switch, I would do all the standard checks on the coax(Compression fittings) and splitters(MoCA rated), make sure you have a MoCA filter in place, etc. Same advice for that friend of yours.


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## hooverf16

Good day all.

I've always connected my TiVos in the past via Ethernet or Powerline adapters but upon moving to a new house want to use a MoCa setup but I'm having problems. I have Cox as my ISP and had the cable installer set up the home for MoCa with a POE filter coming out of the Cable modem. My equipment is Cisco cable mode, ASUS router, and Cisco TAs with splitters. I have a TiVo Bolt as the the MoCa + Ethernet setup with it connected directly out of the router. When I try to connect the TiVo Premiere XL4 via MoCa, I get the C33 error. Have tried to change Auto to 15 on MoCa settings with no help. 

Any ideas? Thanks.


----------



## snerd

fcfc2 said:


> If you are going to upgrade to all MoCA 2.0 devices, you will need all 3 of the same type...


It is my understanding that MoCA 2.0 bonded and un-bonded devices can be mixed on the same MoCA network. It probably makes sense to upgrade to the same type, but I don't think that is mandatory.

Current Amazon pricing has the bonded 2.0 adapters for only one penny more than non-bonded, but shop around -- other vendors have better prices than Amazon as of today.


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## snerd

flar said:


> [*]Are the bonded 2.0 adapters which give twice the speed only used in pairs, or can I have 3 bonded 2.0 adapters to get nice bandwidth to/from all 3 points?


MoCA 1.1 and 2.0 standards allow up to 16 MoCA devices on the same network. At any specific instant in time, only two of the devices will be exchanging data. If either device is MoCA 1.1, then MoCA 1.1 signals will be used during that exchange. When both devices are MoCA 2.0, the higher speed will be used.


----------



## snerd

hooverf16 said:


> Good day all.
> 
> I've always connected my TiVos in the past via Ethernet or Powerline adapters but upon moving to a new house want to use a MoCa setup but I'm having problems. I have Cox as my ISP and had the cable installer set up the home for MoCa with a POE filter coming out of the Cable modem. My equipment is Cisco cable mode, ASUS router, and Cisco TAs with splitters. I have a TiVo Bolt as the the MoCa + Ethernet setup with it connected directly out of the router. When I try to connect the TiVo Premiere XL4 via MoCa, I get the C33 error. Have tried to change Auto to 15 on MoCa settings with no help.
> 
> Any ideas? Thanks.


There should be a PoE filter at the input of the top-most splitter in the coax "tree". The cable modem may need one as well, but if that is the only PoE filter, then it probably isn't configured correctly. I'm guessing this is the main problem with your setup.

There can only be one bridge between MoCA and ethernet, so the settings on the Premiere XL4 should be "Connect using MoCA". Only the Bolt should use "Create a MoCA network". If you forgot to set the XL4 to MoCA, that might cause the C33 error.

Other than that, check that your splitters are rated for 1650MHz or higher, and attach 75-ohm terminations to any unused coax wall plates and unused splitter outputs.


----------



## flar

fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> I'll try to answer some of your questions. MoCA 2.0 comes in 2 versions, the standard and the "bonded", if you decide to go all in (3) I would go for the slightly higher priced "bonded" ones, roughly the difference between 400Mbps vs 700+ Mbps. MoCA 2.0 and 1.1 are compatible but MoCA 2.0 and MoCA 1.0 are not. As you suspected with most MoCA 1.1 devices any network traffic in or out is limited to MoCA 1.1 speeds but if the traffic is between 2 MoCA 2.0 legs you will get the 2.0 speeds. I have found only one MoCA 1.1 device so far that will drop the entire network down to 1.1 speeds on mixed network, it is the WCB3000N network extender.
> I can't speak to any potential latency gains between the 2 MoCA standards, just don't know.
> MoCA is a "shared" medium, meaning those numbers are the total for all concurrent MoCA network traffic.
> If you are going to upgrade to all MoCA 2.0 devices, you will need all 3 of the same type, and right now you would have to get a small gigabit switch in addition to replace that Motorola 4 port adapter.
> I doubt that the Plex issue is MoCA related as a "properly" running MoCA 1.1 network is roughly the same as Cat 5, or fast Ethernet, which should be able to easily handle that traffic IMO.
> Before diving in on 3 bonded adapters and a switch, I would do all the standard checks on the coax(Compression fittings) and splitters(MoCA rated), make sure you have a MoCA filter in place, etc. Same advice for that friend of yours.


Thanks for the in-depth answer! For the record, after I posted that I found a decent price on a 6200K kit at MacMall and pulled the trigger on it. I'll connect the BR and den and see how the performance compares and if I like it I'll pick up a 3rd adapter for the LR. My only fear is that MacMall shows just one adapter for the K kit, but they list the K mfg part number for it and are charging "K kit" prices and they have another page for the S kit at a lower price. Crossing fingers and waiting for the Fedex truck to arrive.

I also realized that the TV in the BR is now 4K so I really want to make sure I have good bandwidth to that room for 4K streaming and MoCA 1.1 will barely suffice under ideal conditions, so time to update. I have plenty of network switches lying around from previous network work so I will likely upgrade to an 8-port switch in the BR just with parts on hand. I'll run out of HDMI ports before I max the switch...  (The LR, on the other hand, has almost maxed out its 8-port switch and if I have to add a separate MoCA adapter for it, it will be maxed out. D'oh!)

I have a PoE filter on my setup and I seem to recall posting questions when I was doing the install for my friend because she has an amp and I was wondering how to install the PoE filter with the amp and got that all sorted at the time. The only issue with her install is that the original coax install ran cable to 7 rooms all over a rather large house and then they added a run to an art studio in the garage after the fact, but now that the kids are grown and moved away she really only needs decent coax to 3.5 rooms (3 main rooms with Roamio and Minis and an upstairs family room which never gets used and may be decommissioned). Given the evolving nature of that coax network and a few idiosyncrasies I spotted when hooking things up, I'm skeptical about how the tree of splitters gets coax to all of those rooms and could probably simplify it a bit, or at least make sure that the 3 main rooms have fewer splitters between them.


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## aaronwt

snerd said:


> There should be a PoE filter at the input of the top-most splitter in the coax "tree". The cable modem may need one as well, but if that is the only PoE filter, then it probably isn't configured correctly. I'm guessing this is the main problem with your setup.
> 
> There can only be one bridge between MoCA and ethernet, so the settings on the Premiere XL4 should be "Connect using MoCA". Only the Bolt should use "Create a MoCA network". If you forgot to set the XL4 to MoCA, that might cause the C33 error.
> 
> Other than that, check that your splitters are rated for 1650MHz or higher, and attach 75-ohm terminations to any unused coax wall plates and unused splitter outputs.


MoCA 2.0 will still work over 1Ghz splitters. it just won't necessarily hit those highest frequencies. Even a 1Ghz splitter will still pass higher frequencies. They will just be attenuated some.

With my FiOS 1Ghz 8 way splitter. When both of my Bolts are using MoCA 2.0, they report PHY rates of around 640Mb/s. With my Minis and MoCA 1.1, PHY rates show up between 270Mb/s and 290Mb/s.


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## snerd

aaronwt said:


> MoCA 2.0 will still work over 1Ghz splitters. it just won't necessarily hit those highest frequencies. Even a 1Ghz splitter will still pass higher frequencies. They will just be attenuated some.
> 
> With my FiOS 1Ghz 8 way splitter. When both of my Bolts are using MoCA 2.0, they report PHY rates of around 640Mb/s. With my Minis and MoCA 1.1, PHY rates show up between 270Mb/s and 290Mb/s.


The problem with 1GHz splitters is that they are not all created equal. Many will work fine for MoCA, while others will cause problems, and there is no way to tell the actual bandwidth of the splitter just by looking at them. In a setup that is struggling, it is better to be sure the splitters are specifically rated to have adequate bandwidth.


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## epstewart

snerd said:


> The problem with 1GHz splitters is that they are not all created equal. Many will work fine for MoCA, while others will cause problems, and there is no way to tell the actual bandwidth of the splitter just by looking at them. In a setup that is struggling, it is better to be sure the splitters are specifically rated to have adequate bandwidth.


Amazon lists any number of quite inexpensive coaxial cable splitters, often designated with the MoCA label, with bandwidths above 2GHz and often reaching as high as 3GHz. I guess some who want to use MoCA but resist replacing 1GHz splitters do so not because of the expense but because they don't know where their splitters are or they don't have convenient access to those splitters.


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## snerd

epstewart said:


> Amazon lists any number of quite inexpensive coaxial cable splitters, often designated with the MoCA label, with bandwidths above 2GHz and often reaching as high as 3GHz. I guess some who want to use MoCA but resist replacing 1GHz splitters do so not because of the expense but because they don't know where their splitters are or they don't have convenient access to those splitters.


Agreed. I generally suggest that people try what they already have in place. If it works and gives decent data rates, then use it. When an existing system doesn't give a reliable MoCA connection, then my debug priorities would probably be as follows:


Use only wired connections if at all possible, prefer MoCA over WiFi and Powerline.
RF needs good connections. Make sure all connectors and terminations are snug.
Attach 75-ohm terminations to unused wall plates, splitter outputs, "STB/TV Out" ports.
Install a MoCA PoE filter at the input of the main splitter.
Change out splitters with unused outputs for splitters with the right number of outputs.
In problems remain after all the above, replace splitters if not rated above 1600MHz.
If long coax runs are in play, replace RG59 with RG6.

If all that fails, your best hope is to make a careful accounting for all losses in the system. MoCA standards allow a maximum of 25dB loss through any single downstream path from the PoE filter down through splitters and coax. MoCA standards also allow a maximum path length of 300 feet from the top splitter to each MoCA device.


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## CAOgdin2

I haven't been able to sort out the basic MoCA technology...and perhaps one of you can help me.

My problem is that I have coax and Cat5 strung throughout the house, but Cat5 DOESN'T go to where I want to put the Mini. And, the Roamio has both Coax and Ethernet (we subscribe to NetFlix).

My first question: What goes over the Ethernet link between two MoCA adapters? Is it the actual video signal from Roamio to/from Mini, or is it control information and TiVo GUI? If Ethernet is the only way to convey video from the Roamio to the Mini, then my mere 100 Mb/s CAT5 will interfered with by my nightly 100% backups that are copied from each computer in the house to the central server. In the past, that has cause Netflix to occasionally complain there's no connection, because it gets "crowded out" by the backup Ethernet traffic.

On the other hand, with MoCA, I understand I may be able to get up to 800 Mb/s with an Ethernet-to-Cable adapter, which would speed up those backups.

I hope to do all this at the demarc box for AT&T U-Verse and Comcast cable (Image and layout attached). 

BTW, I finally found a Cable splitter with built-in PoE, for $15 from extreme-broadband.com. That's the first I've found; know of any others? I'd plan to split cable out to MoCA at the output from the external feed point coming up into the bottom of the cabinet.


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## mdavej

CAOgdin2 said:


> What goes over the Ethernet link between two MoCA adapters?


Everything



> If Ethernet is the only way to convey video from the Roamio to the Mini, then my mere 100 Mb/s CAT5 will interfered with by my nightly 100% backups that are copied from each computer in the house to the central server. In the past, that has cause Netflix to occasionally complain there's no connection, because it gets "crowded out" by the backup Ethernet traffic.


Get a gigabit router if you're having bandwidth issues. Cat5 is fine with gigabit if the distances aren't too great. I have a relatively terrible network and have no problem streaming to a couple of Minis simultaneously.


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## CAOgdin2

I've got several Gigabit routers (always buy for the biggest capacity; never know when technology will catch up). YouTube has several qualified explanations that draw the distinctions fairly clearly. My runs in the house are roughly 100' long (with added loops in the walls between RJ45 outlets, to allow for new taps as necessary. Incidentally, I looped coax, too, for the same reason.

It is my hope that using MoCA could give me 400 Mb/s (or even 800 Mb/s) with Ethernet over cable, but I haven't yet figured out how.

But, first, I want to get this Mini working with Roamio for the living room. Unfortunately, the contractor forgot to pull the Ethernet through that route, so if it's just "control signals" over Ethernet, I can use WiFi; it it's the audio/video signal for the TV, it could take as much as 10 Mb/s of capacity (6 Mb/s + Ethernet packet overhead), slowing my overnight backup activities even _further_.


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## mdavej

Those long runs definitely won't give you gigabit over Cat5. Gotta have Cat6.

It is indeed full a/v over ethernet, so wifi is a bad idea, but a few have managed to make it work. If your average cat5 run is 100', I imagine your Mini is quite far away, too far for a strong wifi signal.

Your backup activities seem poorly configured. You should be doing incremental backups, in which case very little would change day to day, resulting in very little data transfer. I'm assuming of course that you aren't torrenting hundreds of gigs per day or have some kind of business that requires huge amounts of data.

I also wonder why you are watching several Minis at the same time these backups are happening. If it were me, I'd set the backups to run when nobody is watching TV.


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## fcfc2

CAOgdin2 said:


> I've got several Gigabit routers (always buy for the biggest capacity; never know when technology will catch up). YouTube has several qualified explanations that draw the distinctions fairly clearly. My runs in the house are roughly 100' long (with added loops in the walls between RJ45 outlets, to allow for new taps as necessary. Incidentally, I looped coax, too, for the same reason.
> 
> It is my hope that using MoCA could give me 400 Mb/s (or even 800 Mb/s) with Ethernet over cable, but I haven't yet figured out how.
> 
> But, first, I want to get this Mini working with Roamio for the living room. Unfortunately, the contractor forgot to pull the Ethernet through that route, so if it's just "control signals" over Ethernet, I can use WiFi; it it's the audio/video signal for the TV, it could take as much as 10 Mb/s of capacity (6 Mb/s + Ethernet packet overhead), slowing my overnight backup activities even _further_.


Hi,
First, regarding the MoCA, to get the kind of speeds you are hoping for, you would need to go with MoCA 2.0 equipment, the standard 2.0 you can get about 400Mbps, and with "bonded" adapters about 700+, with compatible coax and splitters. The builtin MoCA on the Roamio Plus or Pro is MoCA 1.1, which is roughly the same as fast Ethernet, slightly less than 100Mbps. The base Roamio has no MoCA.
We are missing a lot of important information. Are you sure the Ethernet is CAT5 and not CAT5e? Was the Ethernet done recently? Do you know the rating for what looks like the punch down blocks at the top of the enclosure? 
It looks like you actually have 2 amplifiers on the coax to your home, is this correct? What is the make and model number of the dark/black distribution amp near the left center?


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## CAOgdin2

...Um, yeah, I _know_ it's CAT5, not CAT5e. I spec'd it, I bought it, I toted it to the site, and I hired a local telco guy to install it (and taught him 'bout Ethernet). At that time (2001), Cat6 was still quite new (the spec wasn't published 'til 2002), and quite expensive, so I figured I could get by with 100 Mb/s. But, I was not a very good forecaster 

...The Second up-stream Cable box is simply a unity-gain distribution box, so I can have five runs through the house (Upstairs Front & Back, Downstairs Front and Back, and one to the central wall between the Living Room and Kitchen). I know that central wall doesn't have an RJ-45 _jack_...but I gotta get back there and see if the Cat5 is pulled, but just dropped on the wall's floor.

I'm aware that MoCA 2.0 is relatively new and vendors aren't really supporting it much...yet. And, yes, I have an entry-level Roamio, so I have to add the MoCA capacity externally. Because I have a single RJ45 socket behind the entertainment center (part of the MBR suite), I'll probably have to install a small network switch to bring Netflix in, and send the MoCA out.

I've got lots of time. I'm starting to plan out the solution(s) now, just as I did in 2001 while the house was being built (we got the cables in after the exterior was sheathed, but before any drywall was installed). But, the description of the "innards" of signalling and multimedia bandwidths, etc., all seem to behind the MoC Alliance paywall, and I'm not going to join just to learn how it all works.

Does anybody know where some of the "innards" are documented in the standards that are accessible to us mere mortals?

'bout me: I've been tinkering with (and professionally engaged in) technology for 60 years now (yeah, I started at 15, when a single transistor cost me $75 (in 1956 $$$'s!). I've consulted to a lot of F500 companies, retiring when I moved to this region where the Gold Rush began in California is 1849. I'm a glutton for new technologies, and I usually try to keep up to date. Some of you may remember the cover-to-cover issue of EDN magazine I wrote (back in '76) that introduced a lot of TTL designers to Intel 4004s and 8008s; those became books from Prentice-Hall, and translated into several foreign languages.

So, MoCA's my next challenge:up: It keeps me from getting _old_.

--HappyElderGeek


----------



## CAOgdin2

Those long runs definitely won't give you gigabit over Cat5. Gotta have Cat6.

It is indeed full a/v over ethernet, so wifi is a bad idea, but a few have managed to make it work. If your average cat5 run is 100', I imagine your Mini is quite far away, too far for a strong wifi signal.

Average CAT5 run is about 25' with 50' being the longest.​
Your backup activities seem poorly configured. You should be doing incremental backups, in which case very little would change day to day, resulting in very little data transfer. I'm assuming of course that you aren't torrenting hundreds of gigs per day or have some kind of business that requires huge amounts of data.

Really? I wish I was a wise as you about backups. Ever tried to restore a client's system with multiple incremental backups? You have no IDEA of what my backup plan is! I typically restore a hosed computer in one hour, and can do it over the phone from last night...worst case, today's data has been lost for my small business clients. They appreciate that.​
I also wonder why you are watching several Minis at the same time these backups are happening. If it were me, I'd set the backups to run when nobody is watching TV.

D'you wanna pay my electric bill? My desktop backs up and shuts down before 6:30 pm, my notebook starts then and is done an hour later, and my spouse's notebook is done at about an hour and a half after that. AND, I have three-tiers of backups; each week I swap the current 1TB drive and put it close by, in case i need it, and the previous "close by" goes into the trunk of the car (what're YOU gonna do when there's a fire?); the one from the car becomes this weeks backup. Neat, simple, and fast to restore at any time. That's why I pulled Ethernet AND Coax.​[/QUOTE]


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## fcfc2

CAOgdin2 said:


> ...Um, yeah, I _know_ it's CAT5, not CAT5e. I spec'd it, I bought it, I toted it to the site, and I hired a local telco guy to install it (and taught him 'bout Ethernet). At that time (2001), Cat6 was still quite new (the spec wasn't published 'til 2002), and quite expensive, so I figured I could get by with 100 Mb/s. But, I was not a very good forecaster
> 
> ...The Second up-stream Cable box is simply a unity-gain distribution box, so I can have five runs through the house (Upstairs Front & Back, Downstairs Front and Back, and one to the central wall between the Living Room and Kitchen). I know that central wall doesn't have an RJ-45 _jack_...but I gotta get back there and see if the Cat5 is pulled, but just dropped on the wall's floor.
> 
> I'm aware that MoCA 2.0 is relatively new and vendors aren't really supporting it much...yet. And, yes, I have an entry-level Roamio, so I have to add the MoCA capacity externally. Because I have a single RJ45 socket behind the entertainment center (part of the MBR suite), I'll probably have to install a small network switch to bring Netflix in, and send the MoCA out.
> 
> I've got lots of time. I'm starting to plan out the solution(s) now, just as I did in 2001 while the house was being built (we got the cables in after the exterior was sheathed, but before any drywall was installed). But, the description of the "innards" of signalling and multimedia bandwidths, etc., all seem to behind the MoC Alliance paywall, and I'm not going to join just to learn how it all works.
> 
> Does anybody know where some of the "innards" are documented in the standards that are accessible to us mere mortals?
> 
> 'bout me: I've been tinkering with (and professionally engaged in) technology for 60 years now (yeah, I started at 15, when a single transistor cost me $75 (in 1956 $$$'s!). I've consulted to a lot of F500 companies, retiring when I moved to this region where the Gold Rush began in California is 1849. I'm a glutton for new technologies, and I usually try to keep up to date. Some of you may remember the cover-to-cover issue of EDN magazine I wrote (back in '76) that introduced a lot of TTL designers to Intel 4004s and 8008s; those became books from Prentice-Hall, and translated into several foreign languages.
> 
> So, MoCA's my next challenge:up: It keeps me from getting _old_.
> 
> --HappyElderGeek


There is quite a bit of information available on MoCA, one of the best sources is the MoCA Alliance, http://www.mocalliance.org/ 
Quite a long thread here, http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=501722
and there are a few youtube videos which can also help to get you up to speed.
That splitter with the POE filter may not be of any use to you and my best guess is that that 2nd unity gain amp may not be MoCA compatible, which means a replacement with one which is MoCA friendly. MoCA POE / Whole Home DVR filters are usually cheapest off of Ebay. 
If you want to go with the fastest MoCA 2.0, you will need to get the "bonded" ones which are only made by Actiontec so far anyway. Online they run about $170 a pair if you shop around. If you can get Ethernet to your Roamio, you won't need an adapter there, unless you want to get as much as possible off your Ethernet network.


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## mdavej

I have obviously stumbled into major tin foil hat territory. I yield to the IT PhDs from here on. Good luck.


----------



## aaronwt

mdavej said:


> Those long runs definitely won't give you gigabit over Cat5. Gotta have Cat6.
> 
> It is indeed full a/v over ethernet, so wifi is a bad idea, but a few have managed to make it work. If your average cat5 run is 100', I imagine your Mini is quite far away, too far for a strong wifi signal.
> 
> Your backup activities seem poorly configured. You should be doing incremental backups, in which case very little would change day to day, resulting in very little data transfer. I'm assuming of course that you aren't torrenting hundreds of gigs per day or have some kind of business that requires huge amounts of data.
> 
> I also wonder why you are watching several Minis at the same time these backups are happening. If it were me, I'd set the backups to run when nobody is watching TV.


Ca5e and Cat6 have the same requirement for GigE. 100 meters. Or 328 feet.


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## lew

I'm trying to improve my download to PC speeds (KMTTG) I'm currently getting around 80-90 Mbs.

I have a Roamio plus, using a Fios G1000 router. I have a VZ installed 6 way splitter 5-1000. I'm currently using 4 legs. The unused legs are capped. The coax run to the splitter is close to 100ft.

I temporarily ran an ethernet wire to the Roamio and the rate was 152Mbs.

Is the Moca limited to 100Mbs?

Would changing the splitter make a big difference? 

Should I just run ethernet cable to the Roamio?

I think I have enough cat6 cable. I'd rather not crawl in the attic to run the cable in a wife friendly way.


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## fcfc2

lew said:


> I'm trying to improve my download to PC speeds (KMTTG) I'm currently getting around 80-90 Mbs.
> 
> I have a Roamio plus, using a Fios G1000 router. I have a VZ installed 6 way splitter 5-1000. I'm currently using 4 legs. The unused legs are capped. The coax run to the splitter is close to 100ft.
> 
> I temporarily ran an ethernet wire to the Roamio and the rate was 152Mbs.
> 
> Is the Moca limited to 100Mbs?
> 
> Would changing the splitter make a big difference?
> 
> Should I just run ethernet cable to the Roamio?
> 
> I think I have enough cat6 cable. I'd rather not crawl in the attic to run the cable in a wife friendly way.


Hi,
Your Roamio is MoCA 1.1 so your transfer speed is about as good as you are going to get with your current setup. The G1100 does have MoCA 2.0 though, so if you got a 2.0 adapter and used that instead of the builtin MoCA 1.1 you would possibly get a dramatic increase in speed if you have a Plus, or Pro. I think that the Ethernet port on the base Roamio is fast Ethernet port 10/100...that will slow everything down.


----------



## lew

fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> Your Roamio is MoCA 1.1 so your transfer speed is about as good as you are going to get with your current setup. The G1100 does have MoCA 2.0 though, so if you got a 2.0 adapter and used that instead of the builtin MoCA 1.1 you would possibly get a dramatic increase in speed if you have a Plus, or Pro. I think that the Ethernet port on the base Roamio is fast Ethernet port 10/100...that will slow everything down.


Thanks. No reason spending $ on a new adapter. I have enough extra cat6 cable and connectors. Up one closet and down another.

I thought I read somewhere MoCA 1.1 could go around 175Mbs.


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## snerd

lew said:


> I thought I read somewhere MoCA 1.1 could go around 175Mbs.


170Mbps and 175Mbps are the most common numbers I've seen quoted as the top data rate for MoCA 1.1.

Network menus on your Roamio Plus can show the MAK data rates for all devices on your MoCA network. Make rates should be near 270Mbps to get the full 170Mbps data rate.


----------



## fcfc2

snerd said:


> 170Mbps and 175Mbps are the most common numbers I've seen quoted as the top data rate for MoCA 1.1.
> 
> Network menus on your Roamio Plus can show the MAK data rates for all devices on your MoCA network. Make rates should be near 270Mbps to get the full 170Mbps data rate.


Those numbers are based on concurrent bi-directional traffic not real world use which is going to be uni-directional 99.9% of the time. 
Every MoCA 1.1 adapter I have ever found has a 10/100 fast Ethernet port as do the base Roamio and all minis.


----------



## aaronwt

fcfc2 said:


> Those numbers are based on concurrent bi-directional traffic not real world use which is going to be uni-directional 99.9% of the time.
> Every MoCA 1.1 adapter I have ever found has a 10/100 fast Ethernet port as do the base Roamio and all minis.


The Actiontec MoCA 1.1 adapter I have uses GigE ports. But looking back I see I got slightly faster speeds over MoCA 1.1 to KMTTG than lew reported. With my ROamio Pro, which has GigE, I got around 100Mb/s transfer rates to KMTTG over MoCA 1.1

The Base ROamio does not have MoCA. And the Minis only use streaming so I don't see how you could test it's max MoCA speed. The base ROamio does have it's WiFi routed through it's 100BT connection though. Which seriously limits it's WiFi speeds.

At least with the Bolts and MoCA 2.0, they easily get transfer speeds around 330Mb/s. But that is still 20% slower than speeds over GigE.


----------



## fcfc2

aaronwt said:


> The Actiontec MoCA 1.1 adapter I have uses GigE ports. But looking back I see I got slightly faster speeds over MoCA 1.1 to KMTTG than lew reported. With my ROamio Pro, which has GigE, I got around 100Mb/s transfer rates to KMTTG over MoCA 1.1
> 
> The Base ROamio does not have MoCA. And the Minis only use streaming so I don't see how you could test it's max MoCA speed. The base ROamio does have it's WiFi routed through it's 100BT connection though. Which seriously limits it's WiFi speeds.
> 
> At least with the Bolts and MoCA 2.0, they easily get transfer speeds around 330Mb/s. But that is still 20% slower than speeds over GigE.


Why didn't you get 170-175Mbps? Perhaps because you don't have traffic going 2 ways at the same time. Here is the latest Actiontec MoCA 1.1 adapter, http://www.actiontec.com/251.html, please look at what it says about the "interfaces".
Oh, by the way, the Actiontec W1424WR Rev I, is not a MoCA adapter. The reason why there are only 10/100 fast Ethernet is because in their typical use with MoCA 1.1 will never exceed 100Mbps. 
I am aware that the base Roamio doesn't have MoCA built in, the point, was that it has any Ethernet traffic capped by it's fast Ethernet 10/100 port.


----------



## aaronwt

fcfc2 said:


> Why didn't you get 170-175Mbps? Perhaps because you don't have traffic going 2 ways at the same time. Here is the latest Actiontec MoCA 1.1 adapter, http://www.actiontec.com/251.html, please look at what it says about the "interfaces".
> Oh, by the way, the Actiontec W1424WR Rev I, is not a MoCA adapter. The reason why there are only 10/100 fast Ethernet is because in their typical use with MoCA 1.1 will never exceed 100Mbps.
> I am aware that the base Roamio doesn't have MoCA built in, the point, was that it has any Ethernet traffic capped by it's fast Ethernet 10/100 port.


I easily get 175Mb/s speeds with that MoCA connection from my Actiontec, as long as I'm going to multiple MoCA devices. I didn't test it going to my Bolts though to see what I could get going to one device that is easily capable of exceeding those speeds.


----------



## fcfc2

aaronwt said:


> I easily get 175Mb/s speeds with that MoCA connection from my Actiontec, as long as I'm going to multiple MoCA devices. I didn't test it going to my Bolts though to see what I could get going to one device that is easily capable of exceeding those speeds.


Aaron,
Are you running actual speed tests with some network software like this, http://totusoft.com/lanspeed1/, or are you looking at some transfer rate somewhere?


----------



## snerd

fcfc2 said:


> Those numbers are based on concurrent bi-directional traffic not real world use which is going to be uni-directional 99.9% of the time.


There is no such thing as concurrent bi-directional traffic on a MoCA network. The network controller schedules all MoCA traffic in such a way that at any single instant, one device is transmitting while a separate device is receiving. The actual speed achieved will depend on the measured conditions on the coax between the two MoCA devices, since MoCA adapts to get the best speed possible.

The 10/100 ethernet ports on MoCA adapters would limit the speed, but lew has a Roamio Plus that has 10/100/1000 ports, and I'm assuming the reported data rate of 152Mbps was to/from the Roamio over ethernet. It seems odd that the Roamio Plus on MoCA seems to have speed limitations that suggest a 10/100 limitation, but that may come from whatever MoCA chip is in the TiVo. I'm guessing that the Fios G1000 is not the bottleneck.



> Every MoCA 1.1 adapter I have ever found has a 10/100 fast Ethernet port as do the base Roamio and all minis.


The ActionTec specs for the ECB3000N list 10/100/1000 for the ethernet ports.

The data sheet for the ECB3500T claims 10/100 ports, but the FAQ on the Support link of this page claims that it also has 10/100/1000 ports. I guess TiVo isn't the only one with conflicting claims about their own products.


----------



## SteveKopp

Lots of great info to sort through here, but I've got a stupid situation that may be specific to the Roamio OTA. Couple of weeks ago when I was going through the set-up directions for MOCA on the OTA and ordering everything I need, I looked at the network settings menu, and "Connect Using MOCA" was in the menu. Now that I have everything I need and I'm in the process of setting it up, the option for using MOCA has disappeared from the menu, all I have not is Ethernet and wireless. There has been a software update since and I'm wondering if it was taken out. Besides that, and ideas?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

SteveKopp said:


> Lots of great info to sort through here, but I've got a stupid situation that may be specific to the Roamio OTA. Couple of weeks ago when I was going through the set-up directions for MOCA on the OTA and ordering everything I need, I looked at the network settings menu, and "Connect Using MOCA" was in the menu. Now that I have everything I need and I'm in the process of setting it up, the option for using MOCA has disappeared from the menu, all I have not is Ethernet and wireless. There has been a software update since and I'm wondering if it was taken out. Besides that, and ideas?


Not sure what you saw (bad instructions?) but the Roamio OTA doesn't have moca support. If you choose to connect it via moca adapter, the correct setting will be ethernet.


----------



## SteveKopp

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Not sure what you saw (bad instructions?) but the Roamio OTA doesn't have moca support. If you choose to connect it via moca adapter, the correct setting will be ethernet.


I realize the OTA doesn't have MOCA support, that's why I got the adapter. But now that I'm thinking this through a little bit, do I need 2 adapters to get the OTA on MOCA, one to create the network and another to connect the OTA? As is, the directions for connecting the OTA don't connect it to the Internet, only to the MOCA adapter...I'm betting that's the part of this setup that I'm missing.


----------



## snerd

SteveKopp said:


> I realize the OTA doesn't have MOCA support, that's why I got the adapter. But now that I'm thinking this through a little bit, do I need 2 adapters to get the OTA on MOCA, one to create the network and another to connect the OTA? As is, the directions for connecting the OTA don't connect it to the Internet, only to the MOCA adapter...I'm betting that's the part of this setup that I'm missing.


You probably need two adapters, but it depends on what equipment you plan to connect together on the MoCA network. It also can depend on your internet provider.

For example, if your Roamio OTA is in the same room as your router, and you want MoCA to connect some Minis, then you would connect the TiVo to the router with Cat5e/Cat6 cable, and you would need only one MoCA adapter that you would also connect to the router and to the coax. The MoCA network would then allow you to stream from the TiVo to the Minis, and allow the Minis to access the internet for update and access to Netflix etc.

If your Roamio OTA is not in a room that has wired ethernet access, then you will need two MoCA adapters, one near the router and one near the OTA.

If you use FiOS for internet access, it can create the MoCA network and you'd only need one MoCA adapter for the OTA.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

SteveKopp said:


> I realize the OTA doesn't have MOCA support, that's why I got the adapter. But now that I'm thinking this through a little bit, do I need 2 adapters to get the OTA on MOCA, one to create the network and another to connect the OTA? As is, the directions for connecting the OTA don't connect it to the Internet, only to the MOCA adapter...I'm betting that's the part of this setup that I'm missing.


Hybrid setups can be tricky because there's no physical coax connection between the internet source (I'm guessing coax to a cable modem?) and the OTA coax.

But in a nutshell the ROTA would connect to a moca adapter, and another moca adapter would be connected to coax also connected to the same OTA feed near your router.


----------



## lew

fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> Your Roamio is MoCA 1.1 so your transfer speed is about as good as you are going to get with your current setup.


Good to know


snerd said:


> 170Mbps and 175Mbps are the most common numbers I've seen quoted as the top data rate for MoCA 1.1.
> 
> Network menus on your Roamio Plus can show the MAK data rates for all devices on your MoCA network. Make rates should be near 270Mbps to get the full 170Mbps data rate.


I'm show a TX PHY rate of around 275 Mbps. RX rate is the same.



aaronwt said:


> The Actiontec MoCA 1.1 adapter I have uses GigE ports. But looking back I see I got slightly faster speeds over MoCA 1.1 to KMTTG than lew reported. With my ROamio Pro, which has GigE, I got around 100Mb/s transfer rates to KMTTG over MoCA 1.1


Since I started checking I'm getting around 90-95 Mb/s, I think I got as high as around 98 but never above 100. Sounds like replacing the splitter, shortening coax runs won't give me a big bump in speed. Cat6 wire it is.

I always thought MoCA was as good as wired ethernet. I guess my memory is pre GigE.

My 150 was obtained by temporarily connecting a 25ft cat5 patch cable from my Roamio to a Negear G Switch which connects my computer to my router (60ft run cat6 cable)


----------



## aaronwt

fcfc2 said:


> Aaron,
> Are you running actual speed tests with some network software like this, http://totusoft.com/lanspeed1/, or are you looking at some transfer rate somewhere?


On the TiVos I look at the transfer history after transferring a one or two hour long show(or 10+ hour recording). On the PC I have a bandwidth monitor program to show the speed going out to the TiVos.

I'll need to check out the program you linked to. Thanks.


----------



## aaronwt

snerd said:


> There is no such thing as concurrent bi-directional traffic on a MoCA network. The network controller schedules all MoCA traffic in such a way that at any single instant, one device is transmitting while a separate device is receiving. The actual speed achieved will depend on the measured conditions on the coax between the two MoCA devices, since MoCA adapts to get the best speed possible.
> 
> The 10/100 ethernet ports on MoCA adapters would limit the speed, but lew has a Roamio Plus that has 10/100/1000 ports, and I'm assuming the reported data rate of 152Mbps was to/from the Roamio over ethernet. It seems odd that the Roamio Plus on MoCA seems to have speed limitations that suggest a 10/100 limitation, but that may come from whatever MoCA chip is in the TiVo. I'm guessing that the Fios G1000 is not the bottleneck.
> 
> The ActionTec specs for the ECB3000N list 10/100/1000 for the ethernet ports.
> 
> The data sheet for the ECB3500T claims 10/100 ports, but the FAQ on the Support link of this page claims that it also has 10/100/1000 ports. I guess TiVo isn't the only one with conflicting claims about their own products.


The ECB3500T01 has GigE ports. I purchased one from Amazon in April 2014. But I did run into issues with the GigE ports. I couldn't get speeds much higher than 600Mb/s from them. While my Dlink GigE switches all have no problem getting 950Mb/s speeds. So I didn't end up using the ECB3500T the way I initially planned, since I needed full GigE speeds from the GigE ports.

Someone had reported getting faster speeds from theirs, but I never really went through any trouble shooting. Since I've had no issues with a couple dozen Dlink GigE switches, it was just easier to continue using one of them, and just connecting the Actiontec to a Dlink port and my Minis to the MoCA connection. Which didn't need the Faster speeds in that setup.


----------



## sheshechic

snerd said:


> The 10/100 ethernet ports on MoCA adapters would limit the speed, but lew has a Roamio Plus that has 10/100/1000 ports, and I'm assuming the reported data rate of 152Mbps was to/from the Roamio over ethernet. It seems odd that the Roamio Plus on MoCA seems to have speed limitations that suggest a 10/100 limitation, but that may come from whatever MoCA chip is in the TiVo. I'm guessing that the Fios G1000 is not the bottleneck.


What is the situation with the Plus, is the chip limited?

I'd also like to ask if it's better to use a 2.0 adapter to create the system, instead of the Plus?

TIA


----------



## snerd

sheshechic said:


> What is the situation with the Plus, is the chip limited?
> 
> I'd also like to ask if it's better to use a 2.0 adapter to create the system, instead of the Plus?
> 
> TIA


It is pure speculation that the MoCA chip in the Roamio Plus is limiting the speed, but it seems reasonable based on the available evidence. However, if a single chip provides both the GigE ethernet functionality and the MoCA functionality for the Plus, then I would think it could bridge at whatever speed the MoCA 1.1 interface would allow, which I believe would be close to 175Mbps.

Using a MoCA 2.0 adapter to bridge from ethernet to MoCA might get the MoCA 1.1 transfers closer to the 175Mbps limit. It would certainly enable much higher rates to a Bolt or another MoCA 2.0 adapter, since it could run at MoCA 2.0 speeds.


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## Jvacorn

I have a Roamio Series 5 that I would like to setup Moca. Last weekend I ran an Ethernet cable to the TiVo (via the attic). I just received my new Mini activated it. I followed the directions to enable Moca via the TiVo, but I don't get a choice to select Moca in the Network/Settings.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Jvacorn said:


> I have a Roamio Series 5 that I would like to setup Moca. Last weekend I ran an Ethernet cable to the TiVo (via the attic). I just received my new Mini activated it. I followed the directions to enable Moca via the TiVo, but I don't get a choose to select Moca in the Network/Settings.


If this is the 4-tuner Roamio, it doesn't have any built-in moca support. To create a moca network, you'll need to get a moca adapter and connect it to your router as shown in Option 2 of the first post.


----------



## Jvacorn

Thanks for the reply. Darn, so then I didn't need to run that Ethernet cable after all. 

I thought my TiVo was a Roamio Pro. It is the model that has allows digital cable or OTA.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Jvacorn said:


> Thanks for the reply. Darn, so then I didn't need to run that Ethernet cable after all.
> 
> I thought my TiVo was a Roamio Pro. It is the model that has allows digital cable or OTA.


No wasted effort. You'll still want that good, wired connection. Wifi might be iffy when streaming from the Roamio to the Mini.


----------



## Jvacorn

Thanks. Do you think it would be better to just run another Ethernet cable from my router to the mini? It's a short run.

Also, I have an Arris modem that should be Moca capable, but no cable in that room. Only the coax that plugs into the modem.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Jvacorn said:


> Thanks. Do you think it would be better to just run another Ethernet cable from my router to the mini? It's a short run.
> 
> Also, I have an Arris modem that should be Moca capable, but no cable in that room. Only the coax that plugs into the modem.


Up to you. Moca is a good choice when ethernet is inconvenient or not possible, but if ethernet is easy in your case, you might as well.


----------



## Boneless

Do I need to place a POE filter if I'm using bonded MOCA adapters between two rooms only? I'm going to use a coaxial cable that connects and outlet between the front house and back house. On both sides is the adapter which is then connected to a CAT cable. The CAT cable in the back house would lead directly to the router. The CAT cable in the front house would lead directly to a wireless access point. Since the coax cable serves only as a replacement for CAT cable in between the houses, I assume I don't need to use a POE. There aren't any splitters involved.


----------



## fcfc2

Boneless said:


> Do I need to place a POE filter if I'm using bonded MOCA adapters between two rooms only? I'm going to use a coaxial cable that connects and outlet between the front house and back house. On both sides is the adapter which is then connected to a CAT cable. The CAT cable in the back house would lead directly to the router. The CAT cable in the front house would lead directly to a wireless access point. Since the coax cable serves only as a replacement for CAT cable in between the houses, I assume I don't need to use a POE. There aren't any splitters involved.


Hi,
If the coax run is isolated from any coax connected to cable company lines or an OTA antenna, no.


----------



## m86

I'm changing from AT&T to Time Warner next weekend. I have already bought a TiVo Bolt and a TiVo Mini. I would like to use coax cable to create a MoCa network between the two.

Can someone take a look at this diagram and tell me if I have this drawn up correctly? I want to be able to have a knowledgeable conversation when the cable tech shows up.

I saw in this thread a splitter must be used when connecting the Tuning Adapter and the TiVo as opposed to inline in order to use MoCa successfully. I don't plan to add any other TiVo minis elsewhere in the house so I have the POE MoCa filter after the second split with the modem to prevent it from going elsewhere in the house. Does anyone see any problems with this?


image upload no ads


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## BigJimOutlaw

m86 said:


> Does anyone see any problems with this?


It works. Hopefully your signal strength is good enough after 3 splits for the Bolt and modem to get a good signal. But the installer will check that for you.

Sometimes a POE filter going to the TA is also recommended, as moca and the TA can interfere with each other. But it's not necessarily mandatory.


----------



## m86

@BigJimOutlaw - Thank you! I am also worried about all the splits. I read the modem should be installed with few splits as possible. Thanks for the info on the extra POE filter. I'll ask the installer.


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## susandennis

I have a Roamio connected to router via a wifi extender. The TiVo Premier in the bedroom is connected to the Roamio via the MoCA network that is set up on the Roamio. It all works very swiftly and successfully and without fails. (Wave Broadband cable)

I have a back room where I sew. It has very sucky wifi. A Powerline connection won't work due to wonky electricals. The cell reception is worse than the wifi. No ethernet. BUT... there is a cable (coax) outlet back there.

Is there anyway to use that outlet and the MoCA network to generate a wifi signal to the internet? I'd love to get a better signal for the TiVo app on my android tablet.


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## jmpage2

what is generating the moca network in your home, your broadband router? What kind of TiVo do you want to use in the back room you are describing?


----------



## susandennis

jmpage2 said:


> what is generating the moca network in your home, your broadband router? What kind of TiVo do you want to use in the back room you are describing?


I'm not quite sure about your first question. I created the MoCA network on the Roamio which gets its internet via a wifi extender of the router which is connected to the internet via fiber.

As I said, the "TiVo" I want to use is the TiVo app on my Android tablet.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

You can potentially use a moca adapter + wireless extender, or something like the Actiontec WCB3000N which extends wireless.

But I have no idea whether or not they'd work if the Tivo is creating the moca network. Worst case scenario, you might need a moca adapter connected to your router so that the router handles all the IP traffic to the devices on the moca network (and extender) rather than the Tivo.


----------



## susandennis

BigJimOutlaw said:


> But I have no idea if they'd work if the Tivo is creating the moca network.


Yeah, this is where I thought maybe my idea had a big pothole.  Thank you for chiming in.


----------



## jmpage2

Yes as Jim mentioned it is theoretically possible to get a Moca adapter which will then provide an Ethernet connection and then get a wifi bridge to connect to the Moca. 

A possibly less complex and less expensive solution would be to simply get a wireless extender/bridge to boost your wifi in that room.

You would just plug the bridge into AC power after configuring it and it would provide a boost to the wifi you already have.


----------



## susandennis

jmpage2 said:


> A possibly less complex and less expensive solution would be to simply get a wireless extender


I honestly did not even consider that because there is already one extender/bridge on the network and somehow I had it in my brain that adding another wouldn't work.

BUT... you planted the seed and I had an old one in my box 'o stuff I should have taken to the Goodwill years ago. I set it up to extend the first extender and put it in between the dead room and the first extender. Then I took my tablet back to the dead room, hooked it up, ran a speed test and BAM!! I've got signal to spare.

Thank you! Now I have 'TiVo' in the sewing room!!


----------



## jmpage2

I'm glad I could help.


----------



## tjarrett999

I am not sure if this has been covered, but I tried to scan the forum, and specifically this thread and I can't seem to find the answer.

I started the process of setting up a new Tivo Roamio pro this weekend. I finally got everything working last night with the cable company. I am not trying to set up a MoCA network in my house so that I can connect the Roamio to it and set up several Tivo Minis around the house. 

I don't have any ethernet set up in my house, so I am using an Actiontec 2.0 MoCA adapter upstairs in the same room that has our cable modem and router. I set up the adapter and according to everything I can tell it is working. I am not sure if there is anyway to test if it is working, but I followed the diagram in the beginning of the thread and all of the lights are on supposedly confirming that it is working. 

Originally I set up the Roamio Pro through the wireless connection in our house. Now when I go to the settings and try to connect to MoCA I get a message that it isn't able to connect. I have the Roamio Pro hooked up to the coax on the first floor. 

Since it was originally set up through wireless is there anything that I need to do? I am not sure if I need to reboot the Tivo, or anything, but I am hesitant to do that if it isn't necessary due to the issues that I had getting everything initially set up with the cable company.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## epstewart

tjarrett999 said:


> I am not sure if this has been covered, but I tried to scan the forum, and specifically this thread and I can't seem to find the answer.
> 
> I started the process of setting up a new Tivo Roamio pro this weekend. I finally got everything working last night with the cable company. I am not trying to set up a MoCA network in my house so that I can connect the Roamio to it and set up several Tivo Minis around the house.
> 
> I don't have any ethernet set up in my house, so I am using an Actiontec 2.0 MoCA adapter upstairs in the same room that has our cable modem and router. I set up the adapter and according to everything I can tell it is working. I am not sure if there is anyway to test if it is working, but I followed the diagram in the beginning of the thread and all of the lights are on supposedly confirming that it is working.
> 
> Originally I set up the Roamio Pro through the wireless connection in our house. Now when I go to the settings and try to connect to MoCA I get a message that it isn't able to connect. I have the Roamio Pro hooked up to the coax on the first floor.
> 
> Since it was originally set up through wireless is there anything that I need to do? I am not sure if I need to reboot the Tivo, or anything, but I am hesitant to do that if it isn't necessary due to the issues that I had getting everything initially set up with the cable company.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.


You may need to replace the coaxial splitters in your house with ones whose bandwidth extends up to 1675 MHz. The MoCA signals are in the upper frequencies of the splitters' bandwidth. If your splitters top out at 1000 MHz, there might not be enough MoCA signal strength to let your Roamio Pro connect using MoCA.

You may also need to install a MoCA port-of-entry (or PoE) filter at the input of the first splitter that the cable signal from outside your house encounters as it enters your house. A PoE filter keeps the MoCA signal's strength confined to your home and does not let it leak out into the outside world.


----------



## tjarrett999

epstewart said:


> You may need to replace the coaxial splitters in your house with ones whose bandwidth extends up to 1675 MHz. The MoCA signals are in the upper frequencies of the splitters' bandwidth. If your splitters top out at 1000 MHz, there might not be enough MoCA signal strength to let your Roamio Pro connect using MoCA.
> 
> You may also need to install a MoCA port-of-entry (or PoE) filter at the input of the first splitter that the cable signal from outside your house encounters as it enters your house. A PoE filter keeps the MoCA signal's strength confined to your home and does not let it leak out into the outside world.


I installed a PoE filter today as the first step of setting this up.

I am using 3 splitters in my set up and one of them is the MoCA 2.0 splitter that came with the Actiontec MoCA adapter and the other 2 were ones that I purchased through Amazon which are supposed to work for MoCA and have a range of 5-2300MHz.

Is there something that is behind the wall with the coax that was run throughout my house that would prevent me from using MoCA?

Is there anyway to test to see if it is working that is an easy test that doesn't involve the Roamio?

Thanks


----------



## fcfc2

tjarrett999 said:


> Is there something that is behind the wall with the coax that was run throughout my house that would prevent me from using MoCA?
> 
> Is there anyway to test to see if it is working that is an easy test that doesn't involve the Roamio?
> 
> Thanks


If you have hidden splitters, they can be problematic, but since there is little you can do, just focus on what you can do, which it sounds like you have.
In order to test MoCA, you need at least 2 points with a MoCA device. If all you have is one adapter....you will have to wait. 
MoCA was designed to work in "most" homes with standard equipment, so the odds are all in your favor. Good luck


----------



## epstewart

tjarrett999 said:


> I installed a PoE filter today as the first step of setting this up.
> 
> I am using 3 splitters in my set up and one of them is the MoCA 2.0 splitter that came with the Actiontec MoCA adapter and the other 2 were ones that I purchased through Amazon which are supposed to work for MoCA and have a range of 5-2300MHz.
> 
> Is there something that is behind the wall with the coax that was run throughout my house that would prevent me from using MoCA?
> 
> Is there anyway to test to see if it is working that is an easy test that doesn't involve the Roamio?
> 
> Thanks


A nominally-too-low-bandwidth splitter behind the wall, if one exists, could be a problem, but keep in mind that many MoCA setups work OK in such situations. MoCA tends to be able to adapt to them. Could you tell us exactly what the setup is in your room with the MoCA adapter? Precisely what model adapter is it? What connections did you make from it to your router and cable modem? What models are the router and modem?

BTW, once you get a Roamio working with a CableCARD, rebooting should not cause a problem. It reboots after power failures, after all, and in some situations it can crash or require a manual reboot. Not that I think rebooting will solve the MoCA problem, but you needn't fear reboots.


----------



## tjarrett999

fcfc2 said:


> If you have hidden splitters, they can be problematic, but since there is little you can do, just focus on what you can do, which it sounds like you have.
> In order to test MoCA, you need at least 2 points with a MoCA device. If all you have is one adapter....you will have to wait.
> MoCA was designed to work in "most" homes with standard equipment, so the odds are all in your favor. Good luck


I have a second MoCA adapter. I purchased the Actiontec MoCA 2.0 adapter 2 pack from Amazon. The model is ECB6000.

I have the cable from the wall going to a splitter that came for Actiontec that is listed as MoCA 2.0 and that is split in two. One goes from the splitter to the Actiontec Adapter and the other coax goes to a Ubee modem provided by Brighthouse. The Actiontec MoCA adapter is then connected by ethernet to a Linksys E4200 Router(a couple years old) that we use in our house for our wireless. set up. The modem and the Linksys router are connected by ethernet and we have had no issues with our wireless.

I hope this helps explain the set up. If you have any questions please let me know and I will try to clarify.

Thanks to all for your help.


----------



## fcfc2

tjarrett999 said:


> I have a second MoCA adapter. I purchased the Actiontec MoCA 2.0 adapter 2 pack from Amazon. The model is ECB6000.
> 
> I have the cable from the wall going to a splitter that came for Actiontec that is listed as MoCA 2.0 and that is split in two. One goes from the splitter to the Actiontec Adapter and the other coax goes to a Ubee modem provided by Brighthouse. The Actiontec MoCA adapter is then connected by ethernet to a Linksys E4200 Router(a couple years old) that we use in our house for our wireless. set up. The modem and the Linksys router are connected by ethernet and we have had no issues with our wireless.
> 
> I hope this helps explain the set up. If you have any questions please let me know and I will try to clarify.
> 
> Thanks to all for your help.


To test, just put your other MoCA adapter in a location where you plan to use it and power it up. If you then can connect a laptop to the Ethernet port on your this adapter and try seeing if you can get to the internet and run a speed test. If both adapters are MoCA 2.0, you should easily get the same speeds that you get at the router.


----------



## convergent

tjarrett999 said:


> I have a second MoCA adapter. I purchased the Actiontec MoCA 2.0 adapter 2 pack from Amazon. The model is ECB6000.
> 
> I have the cable from the wall going to a splitter that came for Actiontec that is listed as MoCA 2.0 and that is split in two. One goes from the splitter to the Actiontec Adapter and the other coax goes to a Ubee modem provided by Brighthouse. The Actiontec MoCA adapter is then connected by ethernet to a Linksys E4200 Router(a couple years old) that we use in our house for our wireless. set up. The modem and the Linksys router are connected by ethernet and we have had no issues with our wireless.
> 
> I hope this helps explain the set up. If you have any questions please let me know and I will try to clarify.
> 
> Thanks to all for your help.


You may want to try removing the splitter in front of the MoCA adapter and cable modem, and just feed the output from the MoCA adapter to the cable modem. I have the 6200 adapters, and it wouldn't connect until I did that.

It makes no sense that it worked this way because one additional splitter shouldn't prevent it from getting back to the other adapters. And in fact, I had two splitters out in the exterior cable box at one point and it would still connect, but just another thing you might try. If you look in the diagram below, you see have the MoCA adapter as the first thing on the line that eventually goes to the modem.

Ironically in my family room I could not get the Mini to work reliably on ethernet and ended up putting a splitter in front of the MoCA adapter and that one works fine that way.

With no diagnostics to speak of with MoCA, it seems that trial and error is the only way to really troubleshoot different configurations.


----------



## fcfc2

Hi convergent,
The 6000 adapter doesn't have the 2 coax ports like the 6200, so he needs the splitter at that location.


----------



## tjarrett999

fcfc2 said:


> Hi convergent,
> The 6000 adapter doesn't have the 2 coax ports like the 6200, so he needs the splitter at that location.


Thanks. I was reading convergent's reply and was thinking the same thing. After spending a few hours yesterday checking everything and making sure that I had it all set up correctly I was tempted to buy the 6200 and see if that would make any difference and then return the 6000.

It seems like that may be what I need to do.


----------



## fcfc2

tjarrett999 said:


> Thanks. I was reading convergent's reply and was thinking the same thing. After spending a few hours yesterday checking everything and making sure that I had it all set up correctly I was tempted to buy the 6200 and see if that would make any difference and then return the 6000.
> 
> It seems like that may be what I need to do.


Are you saying you have tried it and you get no connectivity over the MoCA adapters?


----------



## epstewart

tjarrett999 said:


> Thanks. I was reading convergent's reply and was thinking the same thing. After spending a few hours yesterday checking everything and making sure that I had it all set up correctly I was tempted to buy the 6200 and see if that would make any difference and then return the 6000.
> 
> It seems like that may be what I need to do.


I agree. Try the 6200, but before you give up on the 6000, might you also try fcfc2's suggestion to hook up the second 6000 to a laptop and try for connectivity, and also run a speed test if you have a connection? Redundancy (in this case, two 6000's) is such a valuable diagnostic aid.


----------



## tjarrett999

fcfc2 said:


> Are you saying you have tried it and you get no connectivity over the MoCA adapters?


The only thing I tried to connect so far is the Tivo. I am at work now, so I am planning on trying to connect a laptop to the second adapter later to see if that connects and run a speed test.


----------



## fcfc2

Hi again,
You don't say which Tivo you have or how it is connected to your network, Ethernet or MoCA? If you have a Bolt, Roamio Plus/Pro, or the 4 tuner Premiere, you can use the builtin MoCA via the "connect by MoCA" network option.


----------



## tjarrett999

fcfc2 said:


> Hi again,
> You don't say which Tivo you have or how it is connected to your network, Ethernet or MoCA? If you have a Bolt, Roamio Plus/Pro, or the 4 tuner Premiere, you can use the builtin MoCA via the "connect by MoCA" network option.


I have a Tivo Roamio Pro. I currently don't have any option in my house other than wireless for it to connect to the internet. I have the modem/router upstairs away from where we watch TV. I connected the MoCA adapter up there to create a MoCA network and then have the Tivo downstairs connected by coax to the wall and to our homes wireless connection. I thought that was how to connect it to the MoCA network using the existing coax in our home.

I don't have ethernet/LAN available downstairs to be able to connect that to the Roamio to be able to use that to create the MoCA network if that is what you are referring to.


----------



## fcfc2

tjarrett999 said:


> I have a Tivo Roamio Pro. I currently don't have any option in my house other than wireless for it to connect to the internet. I have the modem/router upstairs away from where we watch TV. I connected the MoCA adapter up there to create a MoCA network and then have the Tivo downstairs connected by coax to the wall and to our homes wireless connection. I thought that was how to connect it to the MoCA network using the existing coax in our home.
> 
> I don't have ethernet/LAN available downstairs to be able to connect that to the Roamio to be able to use that to create the MoCA network if that is what you are referring to.


Hi,
When you get home, simply go into the Pro's network settings and change it to "connect to MoCA", if you don't have any coax/splitter issues, you should be able to connect ok.


----------



## tjarrett999

fcfc2 said:


> Hi,
> When you get home, simply go into the Pro's network settings and change it to "connect to MoCA", if you don't have any coax/splitter issues, you should be able to connect ok.


I have tried that multiple times, and the Roamio will "try" for 30 seconds or so and then bring back an error message saying that it can not connect by MoCA and says I can either try to connect again, or connect using an alternate source like ethernet. I don't have the exact message, but it is something along those lines.

I have probably tried to "connect to MoCA" 15 times yesterday and got the same message each time.

It is just frustrating because I thought that I should just be able to "connect to MoCA" in the Tivo downstairs after I installed the MoCA adapter with the modem upstairs. I have gone through the set up and compared it to other examples on here and other online examples that I have found and it seems like in theory it should work, but for whatever reason I can't get it to connect.


----------



## fcfc2

tjarrett999 said:


> I have tried that multiple times, and the Roamio will "try" for 30 seconds or so and then bring back an error message saying that it can not connect by MoCA and says I can either try to connect again, or connect using an alternate source like ethernet. I don't have the exact message, but it is something along those lines.
> 
> I have probably tried to "connect to MoCA" 15 times yesterday and got the same message each time.
> 
> It is just frustrating because I thought that I should just be able to "connect to MoCA" in the Tivo downstairs after I installed the MoCA adapter with the modem upstairs. I have gone through the set up and compared it to other examples on here and other online examples that I have found and it seems like in theory it should work, but for whatever reason I can't get it to connect.


Your thinking is correct...it should connect, but I have read of Tivo minis getting "stuck" on previous network settings and not wanting to change. I don't know if that could be an issue or not. Where is your second MoCA adapter? Is it connected already? If not I would try using it to see if you can get the Pro to connect via it's Ethernet. If that works, then the issue may be with the Pro's MoCA, if not, then you are most likely looking at the usual splitters/cabling issue.
EDIT: I totally forgot something, see if you can dig into the MoCA settings on the Pro, you are looking for the channel, make sure it is set to "auto".


----------



## tjarrett999

fcfc2 said:


> Your thinking is correct...it should connect, but I have read of Tivo minis getting "stuck" on previous network settings and not wanting to change. I don't know if that could be an issue or not. Where is your second MoCA adapter? Is it connected already? If not I would try using it to see if you can get the Pro to connect via it's Ethernet. If that works, then the issue may be with the Pro's MoCA, if not, then you are most likely looking at the usual splitters/cabling issue.
> EDIT: I totally forgot something, see if you can dig into the MoCA settings on the Pro, you are looking for the channel, make sure it is set to "auto".


Thanks for all the help. With everything that you have suggested I have a couple of things to try tonight when I get home.

I am pretty sure that the channel is set to auto, but without being in front of it I can't confirm that. I will check that first.

The other MoCA adapter is sitting in another room right now not being used. I will try to connect it downstairs in the room with the Tivo and see if I can connect by ethernet.


----------



## epstewart

tjarrett999 said:


> I have tried that multiple times, and the Roamio will "try" for 30 seconds or so and then bring back an error message saying that it can not connect by MoCA and says I can either try to connect again, or connect using an alternate source like ethernet. I don't have the exact message, but it is something along those lines.
> 
> I have probably tried to "connect to MoCA" 15 times yesterday and got the same message each time.
> 
> It is just frustrating because I thought that I should just be able to "connect to MoCA" in the Tivo downstairs after I installed the MoCA adapter with the modem upstairs. I have gone through the set up and compared it to other examples on here and other online examples that I have found and it seems like in theory it should work, but for whatever reason I can't get it to connect.


Your thinking was and is correct. It "should" be working, exactly as you set it up. When you try getting your laptop to connect via Ethernet (or actually via MoCA using the second adapter), we will learn more about why it isn't working ...

I hope you can hook up the laptop, via the second 6000, right to the coaxial cable now going into the Roamio Pro. I know you may hesitate to unhook the coax from the Roamio and risk losing CableCARD connectivity. In my experience, though, that's unlikely. Hard as it typically is to get the cable company to properly pair/activate a CableCARD at first, once that happens the card generally keeps working OK even after the coax is disconnected and reconnected or the TiVo is rebooted.

If you have no connectivity at all on the laptop when hooked up via MoCA adapter, or if the connection is notably slow, the problem is probably not with the Roamio Pro. Swapping your 6000 adapters for 6200s might fix it. But if the laptop gets online OK via MoCA, the problem is probably with the Roamio, and a reboot may help.


----------



## epstewart

fcfc2 said:


> Your thinking is correct...it should connect, but I have read of Tivo minis getting "stuck" on previous network settings and not wanting to change. I don't know if that could be an issue or not. Where is your second MoCA adapter? Is it connected already? If not I would try using it to see if you can get the Pro to connect via it's Ethernet. If that works, then the issue may be with the Pro's MoCA, if not, then you are most likely looking at the usual splitters/cabling issue.
> EDIT: I totally forgot something, see if you can dig into the MoCA settings on the Pro, you are looking for the channel, make sure it is set to "auto".


Good idea, about making sure the "Network (MoCA) Settings" have "MoCA channel" set initially to Auto.

This is on my Bolt, but it should be similar on the Roamio Pro:

Go to Settings & Messages, then Network Settings, then "Change network settings." Then select "Connect using MoCA." You should see a "Turn on MoCA" screen. On it, select "Yes, turn on MoCA." Then you see the "Network (MoCA) Settings" screen. If the "MoCA channel" is not already "Auto", change it to "Auto" and select "Use these settings."

If the connection works, you will be asked about how the TiVo should get its IP address at this point. Once all that is set up properly, if you go back into the settings to look at what MoCA channel is being used, you may find (I do) that it has changed from "Auto" to some number (mine is 15). That seems to be normal behavior.


----------



## convergent

tjarrett999 said:


> Thanks. I was reading convergent's reply and was thinking the same thing. After spending a few hours yesterday checking everything and making sure that I had it all set up correctly I was tempted to buy the 6200 and see if that would make any difference and then return the 6000.
> 
> It seems like that may be what I need to do.


Sorry about the bad advice. I have both the ActionTec MoCA 1.1 and 2.0 Bonded adapters, and both have the passthrough... so surprised the 2.0 doesn't.

One thing I will add to the discussion is to just keep trying different combinations of things. I had my network working fine for a year with the MoCA 1.1 adapters and it just started acting up about a month ago. I tried dozens of different combinations of stuff to finally get it to work reliably again and frankly a number of things just didn't make any sense at all.

Without any real diagnostics to work with troubleshooting MoCA can be very frustrating.


----------



## tjarrett999

convergent said:


> Sorry about the bad advice. I have both the ActionTec MoCA 1.1 and 2.0 Bonded adapters, and both have the passthrough... so surprised the 2.0 doesn't.
> 
> One thing I will add to the discussion is to just keep trying different combinations of things. I had my network working fine for a year with the MoCA 1.1 adapters and it just started acting up about a month ago. I tried dozens of different combinations of stuff to finally get it to work reliably again and frankly a number of things just didn't make any sense at all.
> 
> Without any real diagnostics to work with troubleshooting MoCA can be very frustrating.


I think I have finally figured out the issue. I tested the other MoCA adapter on the coax that was running to the Tivo and it didn't work. This is the wire that was coming out of a splitter. I then went and connected it straight to the wire and it worked. So, I then ran the coax straight from the wall to the Tivo and it was able to connect to MoCA.

It seems that the splitters that I have are the issue. I have 4 different ones and I tried all 4 of them and none of them seem to be passing the MoCA signal. I need a splitter there because I have to split the coax to have one run to the Tuning Adapter from Brighthouse and the other running to the Tivo.

The ones that I have are the one that I have attached to this post. It says that it is MoCA compliant and somewhere I had read online that these are good for these kind of setups.

Anyone have any recommendations for a splitter that I should try next?


----------



## fcfc2

tjarrett999 said:


> I think I have finally figured out the issue. I tested the other MoCA adapter on the coax that was running to the Tivo and it didn't work. This is the wire that was coming out of a splitter. I then went and connected it straight to the wire and it worked. So, I then ran the coax straight from the wall to the Tivo and it was able to connect to MoCA.
> 
> It seems that the splitters that I have are the issue. I have 4 different ones and I tried all 4 of them and none of them seem to be passing the MoCA signal. I need a splitter there because I have to split the coax to have one run to the Tuning Adapter from Brighthouse and the other running to the Tivo.
> 
> The ones that I have are the one that I have attached to this post. It says that it is MoCA compliant and somewhere I had read online that these are good for these kind of setups.
> 
> Anyone have any recommendations for a splitter that I should try next?


I trust MoCA rated splitters. I have noticed a number of non-MoCA rated splitters have started to use "MoCA" to increase sales.
http://www.techtoolsupply.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=CATV+MoCA+RATED

https://www.verizon.com/home/accessories/2-way-coax-splitter/?&skuParam=sku510012


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## tjarrett999

fcfc2 said:


> I trust MoCA rated splitters. I have noticed a number of non-MoCA rated splitters have started to use "MoCA" to increase sales.
> http://www.techtoolsupply.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=CATV+MoCA+RATED
> 
> https://www.verizon.com/home/accessories/2-way-coax-splitter/?&skuParam=sku510012


Thanks. I am going to pick up a couple of the Holland ones that you have linked to.

Hopefully this will take care of the issue.

Thanks to everyone for your help.


----------



## epstewart

tjarrett999 said:


> Thanks. I am going to pick up a couple of the Holland ones that you have linked to.
> 
> Hopefully this will take care of the issue.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for your help.


Consider also putting a PoE filter on the coax between the 2-way splitter and the tuning adapter, as some users have said that can help.


----------



## convergent

tjarrett999 said:


> I think I have finally figured out the issue. I tested the other MoCA adapter on the coax that was running to the Tivo and it didn't work. This is the wire that was coming out of a splitter. I then went and connected it straight to the wire and it worked. So, I then ran the coax straight from the wall to the Tivo and it was able to connect to MoCA.
> 
> It seems that the splitters that I have are the issue. I have 4 different ones and I tried all 4 of them and none of them seem to be passing the MoCA signal. I need a splitter there because I have to split the coax to have one run to the Tuning Adapter from Brighthouse and the other running to the Tivo.
> 
> The ones that I have are the one that I have attached to this post. It says that it is MoCA compliant and somewhere I had read online that these are good for these kind of setups.
> 
> Anyone have any recommendations for a splitter that I should try next?


I have the same brand splitter 3 way and 4 way. I've had similar problems you've described but don't believe the splitter caused it. This is the part where sometimes things make no sense. On one of my jacks if I go first to a splitter, the MoCA adapter won't work. I can use the same splitter somewhere else and it works, and other splitters there lead to the same result. It must have to do with signal strength or something because this stuff just acts bizarre sometimes.


----------



## epstewart

convergent said:


> I have the same brand splitter 3 way and 4 way. I've had similar problems you've described but don't believe the splitter caused it. This is the part where sometimes things make no sense. On one of my jacks if I go first to a splitter, the MoCA adapter won't work. I can use the same splitter somewhere else and it works, and other splitters there lead to the same result. It must have to do with signal strength or something because this stuff just acts bizarre sometimes.


I can't really back up what I'm about to say with real evidence, nor with personal experience, but I'm guessing that the internal electronics of splitters can harm MoCA signals due to interference. When there is a tuning adapter involved, one splitter output goes to the TiVo and the other goes to the TA. The MoCA signals at the higher frequency ranges would typically pass along both splits ... But the split to the TA has no use for MoCA signals. If you put a PoE filter between the TA and the splitter, the MoCA signals get filtered out and cannot electronically "reflect" back from the TA to the splitter, where they could possibly interfere with/cancel out the legitimate MoCA signals passing to and from the TiVo along the other split.

This theory I one I derive from posts here and elsewhere by other users. Some users with TA's have had similar problems to that which tjarrett999 ran into. In some cases, changing the model of splitter helped. And in some cases, installing a PoE filter between the splitter and the TA helped.

Some of the experts in this thread  I believe BigJimOutlaw is one  have said, if I recall, that Cisco TA's are particularly prone to this problem, and that using a PoE filter in that way can solve it in some cases.

So maybe tjarrett999 might be able to solve his (her?) problem with a PoE filter, instead of buying a different splitter?


----------



## mdavej

Would a satellite diplexer work like a splitter but without the high loss? Since a diplexer has a low pass filter and DC block on one leg and a high pass on the other, Moca (D band) should pass through the Sat side just fine, and signals below 1GHz should pass through to the TA on the other side, while blocking Moca frequencies (and DC if there happens to be any).


----------



## convergent

epstewart said:


> I can't really back up what I'm about to say with real evidence, nor with personal experience, but I'm guessing that the internal electronics of splitters can harm MoCA signals due to interference. When there is a tuning adapter involved, one splitter output goes to the TiVo and the other goes to the TA. The MoCA signals at the higher frequency ranges would typically pass along both splits ... But the split to the TA has no use for MoCA signals. If you put a PoE filter between the TA and the splitter, the MoCA signals get filtered out and cannot electronically "reflect" back from the TA to the splitter, where they could possibly interfere with/cancel out the legitimate MoCA signals passing to and from the TiVo along the other split.
> 
> This theory I one I derive from posts here and elsewhere by other users. Some users with TA's have had similar problems to that which tjarrett999 ran into. In some cases, changing the model of splitter helped. And in some cases, installing a PoE filter between the splitter and the TA helped.
> 
> Some of the experts in this thread  I believe BigJimOutlaw is one  have said, if I recall, that Cisco TA's are particularly prone to this problem, and that using a PoE filter in that way can solve it in some cases.
> 
> So maybe tjarrett999 might be able to solve his (her?) problem with a PoE filter, instead of buying a different splitter?


In my case I've had a POE filter in front of the TA from the time it was installed, so that isn't the reason I've had unexplainable situations. I think it be the aliens living in my closet where one of the MoCA adapters is installed!


----------



## epstewart

mdavej said:


> Would a satellite diplexer work like a splitter but without the high loss? Since a diplexer has a low pass filter and DC block on one leg and a high pass on the other, Moca (D band) should pass through the Sat side just fine, and signals below 1GHz should pass through to the TA on the other side, while blocking Moca frequencies (and DC if there happens to be any).


Might work. I guess it depends on how a tuning adapter does what it does, which I don't know, as I don't use a TA. I don't get why, if the TA output goes to a USB input on the TiVo, there has to be a separate coaxial split that also runs to the TiVo. I suppose that is necessary to support MoCA, but that arrangement preceded MoCA support on TiVos.

Anyway, what worries me about this suggestion is the side of the diplexer with the high-pass filter. That side would connect via coax to the coaxial input on the TiVo, right? And that side would filter out the lower frequencies, no? Those are the frequencies carrying the cable channels, as opposed to, say, the MoCA signals. When a TA is in use, does the TiVo still need the cable-channel frequencies to appear at its coax input? If it doesn't, and if MoCA is not being used, why does a TA-based setup need anything to be connected to the coax input on the TiVo?


----------



## epstewart

convergent said:


> In my case I've had a POE filter in front of the TA from the time it was installed, so that isn't the reason I've had unexplainable situations. I think it be the aliens living in my closet where one of the MoCA adapters is installed!


Hee, hee!


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> I can't really back up what I'm about to say with real evidence, nor with personal experience, but I'm guessing that the internal electronics of splitters can harm MoCA signals due to interference. When there is a tuning adapter involved, one splitter output goes to the TiVo and the other goes to the TA. The MoCA signals at the higher frequency ranges would typically pass along both splits ... But the split to the TA has no use for MoCA signals. If you put a PoE filter between the TA and the splitter, the MoCA signals get filtered out and cannot electronically "reflect" back from the TA to the splitter, where they could possibly interfere with/cancel out the legitimate MoCA signals passing to and from the TiVo along the other split.


Splitters are passive linear devices. As long as the signals passing through the splitters are not at power levels that would damage the splitter, they cannot cause the kinds of effects that you are describing. The problems happen inside the TA itself. No signals needs to reflect back from the TA, which acts only as a receiver. So, while MoCA signals can cause problems for the TA, it is unlikely that the TA messes up any signals on the coax.

I'm guessing that the splitter may have crappy internal contacts that are not making a good connection to the center wire of the coax. Poorly constructed connectors on the coax can also be a problem, or connections that aren't tightened properly.



> So maybe tjarrett999 might be able to solve his (her?) problem with a PoE filter, instead of buying a different splitter?


Adding a PoE filter may help the TA to work correctly, but it is unlikely to improve the operation of the MoCA adapter on the other leg of the splitter.

Edit: my statement above that a TA is only a receiver is probably dead wrong, but I stand by the claim that it is unlikely to cause interference to MoCA adapters.


----------



## snerd

mdavej said:


> Would a satellite diplexer work like a splitter but without the high loss? Since a diplexer has a low pass filter and DC block on one leg and a high pass on the other, Moca (D band) should pass through the Sat side just fine, and signals below 1GHz should pass through to the TA on the other side, while blocking Moca frequencies (and DC if there happens to be any).


A diplexer would work well in a situation where you want only MoCA signals on one output and only catv/modem signals on the other output. So, a diplexer would work well with a cable modem on the UHF/VHF output and an ECB6200 on the SAT output.


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> .Adding a PoE filter may help the TA to work correctly, but it is unlikely to improve the operation of the MoCA adapter on the other leg of the splitter.


tjarrett999's setup lacks any permanent MoCA adapter on the other splitter leg. The TiVo is a Roamio Pro. The only permanent MoCA adapter is connected to the router on another floor.

Anyway, can you tell me why, when a TA is in use, there needs to be a coaxial connection to the TiVo's coax input, out of the splitter that is installed prior to the TA. Why isn't the TA able to tune in the cable channels and send the desired channel to the TiVo's USB port. Is it because the CableCARD is in the TiVo itself? In which case, what exactly does the TA actually do?


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> Might work. I guess it depends on how a tuning adapter does what it does, which I don't know, as I don't use a TA. I don't get why, if the TA output goes to a USB input on the TiVo, there has to be a separate coaxial split that also runs to the TiVo. I suppose that is necessary to support MoCA, but that arrangement preceded MoCA support on TiVos.


The TA doesn't actually process video signals. It is only used to communicate information about which channels has been selected by the user. All the video information goes in through the coax to the TiVo and is processed by the CableCard. Also, the TA isn't used for all channels -- some people don't event hook up the TA, if it is only needed to access channels they don't care about.



> Anyway, what worries me about this suggestion is the side of the diplexer with the high-pass filter. That side would connect via coax to the coaxial input on the TiVo, right? And that side would filter out the lower frequencies, no? Those are the frequencies carrying the cable channels, as opposed to, say, the MoCA signals. When a TA is in use, does the TiVo still need the cable-channel frequencies to appear at its coax input? If it doesn't, and if MoCA is not being used, why does a TA-based setup need anything to be connected to the coax input on the TiVo?


You're right, a diplexer isn't really a good fit when the two outputs are for a TA and a TiVo, since both devices need catv signals. Diplexers route catv/modem signals to/from the UHF/VHF port and MoCA signals to/from the SAT port, so they are only useful in certain special cases.

Since Minis can only use MoCA signals, there could be cases where a diplexer could be used to send MoCA signals to/from the Mini while sending catv/modem signals to/from a modem or TA or set-top-box.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> tjarrett999's setup lacks any permanent MoCA adapter on the other splitter leg. The TiVo is a Roamio Pro. The only permanent MoCA adapter is connected to the router on another floor.
> 
> Anyway, can you tell me why, when a TA is in use, there needs to be a coaxial connection to the TiVo's coax input, out of the splitter that is installed prior to the TA. Why isn't the TA able to tune in the cable channels and send the desired channel to the TiVo's USB port. Is it because the CableCARD is in the TiVo itself? In which case, what exactly does the TA actually do?


Caveat: I'm not an expert on TA operation, and I've never owned one, so don't believe anything I say about them 

My understanding is that the TA is only used to communicate information about which channel(s) are requested by the TiVo. The video signals are received by the CableCard and/or the tuners in the TiVo, and the TA communicates over the USB connection so that the TiVo knows how to instruct the CableCard as to where to find the data stream. Keep in mind that the USB is USB 2.0 with bandwidth that probably isn't high enough to support an HD video stream.

I assume that a TA can be used to access multiple channels, since the CableCard will support up to 6 channels. In effect, the TA is a special (annoying, big/ugly) adapter that extends the capabilities of the cable card to support switched-digital signals.


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> I assume that a TA can be used to access multiple channels, since the CableCard will support up to 6 channels. In effect, the TA is a special (annoying, big/ugly) adapter that extends the capabilities of the cable card to support switched-digital signals.


OK, thanks. Until now, I had never heard of switched digital video signals. I just researched SDV and learned it's a way to reserve the bandwidth that is needed on a local cable feed for just the channels in use by homes being served in that locality. An interesting concept. So the TiVo has to tell the tuning adapter which channels are currently being tuned by the TiVo and it's CableCARD. The TA then passes that information back along the cable feed.


----------



## JoeyD51

I have read over and over and am trying to figure out the best way to do this before I actually buy anything.

right now I have one connection into the house, which is split to two rooms. the bedroom is where my Comcast Wireless 3 gateway is. the living room (second part of the split) room has my Tivo Premiere, which currently connects wirelessly. 

I want to buy a Mini for the bedroom (where the gateway is), and Bolt for the living room, and connect them via MocA (I have wrapped my mind around trying to go Ethernet with everything but its not feasible).

I am figuring I would need to buy a Tivo Bridge at least, but am not sure after buying a Bolt, a Mini, and a Bridge, but am unclear how to make them all play together. Is it as simple as plugging the bridge in by my gateway, configuring the Bolt and Mini to connect via MoCa, then be on my merry way? 

I just can't wrap my mind how this will work or how I plug everything in. The pictures I have seen online don't show me how this works. The pics show both Ethernet and coax going in and out of the devices so Im lost.

Any help would be great. that way I don't spend $$$ on trying to make this work only to find that it wont


----------



## mdavej

I can't tell if you intend to replace your Premiere with the Bolt or keep it. If you're replacing it, then yes, it's as simple as you said.


----------



## JoeyD51

So, can you elaborate on how to connect the mini? And the bridge? If I am thinking correctly, I can simply plug the bolt into the coax wire after I set the bridge up by the gateway and that's it?


----------



## mdavej

Assuming all your coax is ultimately connected together via splitters, then just plug each device in as you described. There is only one way to connect coax to a Bolt or Mini.


----------



## epstewart

JoeyD51 said:


> I have read over and over and am trying to figure out the best way to do this before I actually buy anything.
> 
> right now I have one connection into the house, which is split to two rooms. the bedroom is where my Comcast Wireless 3 gateway is. the living room (second part of the split) room has my Tivo Premiere, which currently connects wirelessly.
> 
> I want to buy a Mini for the bedroom (where the gateway is), and Bolt for the living room, and connect them via MocA (I have wrapped my mind around trying to go Ethernet with everything but its not feasible).
> 
> I am figuring I would need to buy a Tivo Bridge at least, but am not sure after buying a Bolt, a Mini, and a Bridge, but am unclear how to make them all play together. Is it as simple as plugging the bridge in by my gateway, configuring the Bolt and Mini to connect via MoCa, then be on my merry way?
> 
> I just can't wrap my mind how this will work or how I plug everything in. The pictures I have seen online don't show me how this works. The pics show both Ethernet and coax going in and out of the devices so Im lost.
> 
> Any help would be great. that way I don't spend $$$ on trying to make this work only to find that it wont


I believe your Comcast Wireless Gateway 3 is capable of supporting MoCA without being connected to a TiVo Bridge or any other MoCA adapter. You can check that out here:

http://customer.xfinity.com/help-and-support/internet/broadband-gateways-userguides/

So if you are thinking of using a TiVo Bridge simply for that purpose, you probably don't need one.

Why not? Because MoCA adapters such as the TiVo Bridge are often used to make a traditional router and a companion cable modem MoCA-capable. You won't need to do that. If your gateway is configured to support MoCA internally, you won't have to connect a TiVo Bridge or any other MoCA adapter to it at all.

Alternatively, a MoCA adapter is traditionally used to "create"  i.e., establish  the MoCA network in one's home. But the Bolt you are going to buy will do that all by itself. At setup time, you will simply tell it to "create a MoCA network."

Thirdly, a MoCA adapter such as a TiVo Bridge can be connected to an older TiVo model that doesn't support MoCA directly. Your Premiere is one of those, so you would need to use a TiVo Bridge or other adapter with it if you want to keep it in your household setup. I'm attaching a diagram to show how to use the TiVo Bridge with the Premiere. Once you hook the Premiere up that way, you will tell it to "connect using Ethernet"  not MoCA  because the TiVo Bridge plugs into the Ethernet port on the Premiere.

Notice that the hookup for the TiVo Bridge at the Premiere requires you to put a two-way coaxial splitter between the wall outlet and both the Bridge and the Premiere. That splitter should have a bandwidth that goes up to at least 1675 MHz, in order to support MoCA.

The same is true of the splitter you already have, the one that splits the coax between your living room and your bedroom. You ought to have at least up to 1675 MHz on that and every other splitter in your house.

You do not mention how you intend to split the coax for the Mini. You would very likely need to get another splitter for that purpose. What room would the Mini be in, anyway? You might cascade two two-way splitters to run coax to it, or you might replace your current two-way splitter with a three-way that would supply your Mini as well as your gateway and your Bolt (and possibly, via another two-way and the Bridge) your Premiere. At any rate, every coax connection you have anywhere in your house needs to have a separate split run to it, and all of the splitters you use ought to have bandwidth up to 1675 MHz (or higher).

Your Mini will simply have coax connected directly to it and will be set up to "connect using MoCA," once you have done all of the above.

You should also get a PoE (port of entry) filter and place it on the input side of the first splitter where the coax enters your house. That will keep the MoCA signal from leaking outside your house and becoming attenuated inside your house.

Finally, you should place an F-Type male coaxial terminator on any empty/unused coaxial tap you have in your house, whether it is a wall outlet or an unused tap on a splitter.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> I believe your Comcast Wireless Gateway 3 is capable of supporting MoCA without being connected to a TiVo Bridge or any other MoCA adapter.


Is this the same device that Comcast tells their own customers to NOT use the MoCA capability because it is flakey? I'd suggest checking this out thoroughly before proceeding.


----------



## snerd

JoeyD51 said:


> I have read over and over and am trying to figure out the best way to do this before I actually buy anything.
> 
> right now I have one connection into the house, which is split to two rooms. the bedroom is where my Comcast Wireless 3 gateway is. the living room (second part of the split) room has my Tivo Premiere, which currently connects wirelessly.


Assuming you know the location of the splitter that feeds the two rooms, plan to add a MoCA PoE filter to the input of that (first) splitter.



> I want to buy a Mini for the bedroom (where the gateway is), and Bolt for the living room, and connect them via MocA (I have wrapped my mind around trying to go Ethernet with everything but its not feasible).
> 
> I am figuring I would need to buy a Tivo Bridge at least, but am not sure after buying a Bolt, a Mini, and a Bridge, but am unclear how to make them all play together. Is it as simple as plugging the bridge in by my gateway, configuring the Bolt and Mini to connect via MoCa, then be on my merry way?


It can be almost that simple, but sometimes there are some complications. At best, you'll need to make a few services connections from both the Bolt and the Mini to get them connected and aware of each other so that the Mini can use the Bolt as a host.



> I just can't wrap my mind how this will work or how I plug everything in. The pictures I have seen online don't show me how this works. The pics show both Ethernet and coax going in and out of the devices so Im lost.


First step I'd suggest is checking the existing splitter to add the PoE filter and see if it is rated at 1675MHz or higher.

In the bedroom, you'll need a 3-way splitter that is rated at 1675MHz or higher. Run coax from the wall plate to the input of the splitter, then run coax from the three outputs of the splitter to the gateway, the Bridge, and the Mini.

The Bridge "creates" the MoCA network, so it needs to be working before the Bolt or Mini will be able to access the internet, which is necessary to perform guided setup on them. There are lights on the Bridge that tell you when it is connected correctly.

The Bolt is easy -- just run a coax cable from the wall plate in the living room to the Bolt.

Use menus on the Bolt and Mini to set them to "Connect using MoCA".

After everything is physically connected, it sometimes takes two or three forced connections from the Bolt and/or Mini before they become aware of each other so that the Bridge can stream video to the Mini.

If you run into problems, be patient and we'll help you get everything working.

Here is an added bonus once it is all set up. If you want to connect other stuff in the living room to your network, all you need to do is connect an ethernet switch to the ethernet port on the Bolt, and it will automatically provide wired connectiions through that switch, passing signals over the MoCA network.


----------



## epstewart

JoeyD51 said:


> So, can you elaborate on how to connect the mini? And the bridge? If I am thinking correctly, I can simply plug the bolt into the coax wire after I set the bridge up by the gateway and that's it?


JoeyD51,

I want to amend my earlier reply to say that your Comcast Wireless Gateway 3 might be able to "create" your MoCA network. I have a roughly similar gateway from Verizon FiOS that does so.

You might find that when you set up your Bolt (I found this to be true with my Bolt in my house) you can just tell it to "connect using MoCA." If that works:


you do not need to connect a TiVo Bridge to your gateway
you do not need to modify your gateway's internal settings
your Mini will also be able to "connect using MoCA"
but you would have to connect a TiVo Bridge to your Premiere and tell the Premiere to "connect using Ethernet" (assuming you will still be using your Premiere)

So, in this scenario you have a simple solution to your concerns. But keep in mind snerd's worry that the Comcast gateways might be flaky with MoCA, so if you have problems:


follow the suggestions given to you by myself, snerd, etc. to make sure your splitters all have high enough bandwidth, to use a PoE filter, and put termination caps on all your unused coax taps
if problems persist, put a TiVo Bridge on your gateway; you will still probably "connect using MoCA" from your Bolt, since the Bridge will probably create the network automatically, but if the Bolt won't connect, try telling it to "create a MocA network"
if problems still persist  i.e., if the Bolt can neither "connect using MoCA" nor "create a MoCA network"  modify the internal settings of your gateway to turn off its internal MoCA capability
Sorry it can sometimes become so complex! Best of luck! (And please get back to us with any further problems or to tell us what worked for you ... )


----------



## tjarrett999

tjarrett999 said:


> Thanks. I am going to pick up a couple of the Holland ones that you have linked to.
> 
> Hopefully this will take care of the issue.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for your help.


I got the new splitters in yesterday and I can now connect everything to the MoCA network and I was able to get one of the minis installed and working last night.

I appreciate all of the advice that everyone gave me. Thanks.


----------



## tjarrett999

snerd said:


> Here is an added bonus once it is all set up. If you want to connect other stuff in the living room to your network, all you need to do is connect an ethernet switch to the ethernet port on the Bolt, and it will automatically provide wired connectiions through that switch, passing signals over the MoCA network.


Will the Roamio Pro work the same way as the Bolt as far as being able to connect an ethernet switch to the Roamio?

Thanks


----------



## snerd

tjarrett999 said:


> Will the Roamio Pro work the same way as the Bolt as far as being able to connect an ethernet switch to the Roamio?
> 
> Thanks


Yes.


----------



## JoeyD51

I just wanted to say thank you for all the advice on this. I will be purchasing my Bolt soon and seeing if I can get it to connect via MoCa without a bridge. The Bolt will be replacing my Premier, so that will be going away. 

I guess my logical first step, like you both said, is to get my Bolt (after I buy it) to see if I can have it connect via MoCa with no additional equipment, using the Comcast Gateway. If that works, I can then think about adding the Mini. 

Thank you again, I will keep you posted.


----------



## epstewart

JoeyD51 said:


> I just wanted to say thank you for all the advice on this. I will be purchasing my Bolt soon and seeing if I can get it to connect via MoCa without a bridge. The Bolt will be replacing my Premier, so that will be going away.
> 
> I guess my logical first step, like you both said, is to get my Bolt (after I buy it) to see if I can have it connect via MoCa with no additional equipment, using the Comcast Gateway. If that works, I can then think about adding the Mini.
> 
> Thank you again, I will keep you posted.


Best of luck! Do let us know if it works right out of the box, or if you need further counseling. Remember that if your Bolt cannot immediately "connect using MoCA," you can try the "Use this TiVo to create a MoCA network" option. If that doesn't work, you can look at the user guide for your gateway to see whether there is something you need to reconfigure in order to have it establish a MoCA network or, alternatively, simply be receptive to other MoCA devices on the network. If the former, the Bolt should "connect using MoCA." If the latter, "Use this TiVo to create a MoCA network" ought to work. If none of that gets you up and running, then your next step is to install a TiVo Bridge on your gateway. Once the Bolt is using MoCA, installing the Mini and having the Bolt play host to it via MoCA should be a snap.

If the Bolt-Mini connection is not happening at that point, that's when you would need to think about the coaxial "infrastructure": the cables, splitters, PoE filter, and possibly the terminator caps which would give MoCA its best chance at optimal behavior.

In my case  I have a similar setup, though my gateway is from Verizon FiOS  it all worked right away, with no fuss, muss, or bother. But be aware that your Bolt and your Mini will probably take a day or so before being fully recognized by the servers at TiVo Inc.


----------



## convergent

JoeyD51 said:


> I just wanted to say thank you for all the advice on this. I will be purchasing my Bolt soon and seeing if I can get it to connect via MoCa without a bridge. The Bolt will be replacing my Premier, so that will be going away.
> 
> I guess my logical first step, like you both said, is to get my Bolt (after I buy it) to see if I can have it connect via MoCa with no additional equipment, using the Comcast Gateway. If that works, I can then think about adding the Mini.
> 
> Thank you again, I will keep you posted.


I am late to the discussion but wanted to add a comment since you mentioned a couple of times not being able to wrap you head around some of the concepts from the picture.

MoCA creates a "pipe" over coax that Ethernet can flow. So MoCA adapters (like the Tivo MoCA bridge or the ActionTec adapters) have a Coax port and an Ethernet port. When you insert one of these, just think of it as adding a connection to that "pipe". You can use 2 or more of them and it is effectively the same as adding ethernet cabling (CAT5) between them all. In order to let all the connected devices using this ethernet "pipe" to get to the internet, at least one of them needs to be connected to your cable modem or router to create a path to the internet. If not, the devices connected can talk to each other, but never get outside to the internet.

Some routers have built in MoCA adapters, and so can create that path to the internet. A Tivo Bolt and some Roamios have the ability to create that bridge as well. In my case, I have simply a cable modem bringing the internet signal into the house, so I use a MoCA adapter to make that connection. I could have done it with my Roamio, but because I'm using my MoCA network for other things besides just Tivo, and because I want the faster MoCA 2.0 speeds, I'm using separate adapters.


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## JoeyD51

Just figured I would update. Bolt arrived, and it is awesome. Took a while to boot up, but when it did it Is great.

I initially couldn't connect to MoCA, so I had to call Comcast. They had to activate MoCA on my wireless device. So, after being transferred to 6 (you read that right, 6) different people, I finally got to someone at a higher level support position in their internet department.

Initially, we could not get the Tivo to connect, even though the gateway was MoCA enabled. We had to give the gateway a new encryption key, and then input that into the Bolt. and then Shazam, we were Moca connected. Next purchase, a Tivo Mini! 

Thanks again for the help.


----------



## epstewart

JoeyD51 said:


> Just figured I would update. Bolt arrived, and it is awesome. Took a while to boot up, but when it did it Is great.
> 
> I initially couldn't connect to MoCA, so I had to call Comcast. They had to activate MoCA on my wireless device. So, after being transferred to 6 (you read that right, 6) different people, I finally got to someone at a higher level support position in their internet department.
> 
> Initially, we could not get the Tivo to connect, even though the gateway was MoCA enabled. We had to give the gateway a new encryption key, and then input that into the Bolt. and then Shazam, we were Moca connected. Next purchase, a Tivo Mini!
> 
> Thanks again for the help.


Thanks for the update, and glad it's working for you!

When you said you initially couldn't get the TiVo to connect, did you mean the Mini or the Bolt ... or both?

When you said Comcast had to activate MoCA and the specify a new encryption key on your wireless device, you meant on your gateway, right? I assume you meant the gateway, anyhow. So we are learning that Comcast has to be called to remotely activate MoCA and do other configuration changes on their gateways, which is good for other Comcast customers to know.

Yet I wonder: might there have been a way for you as the user to activate MoCA yourself and supply a new encryption key by going into the gateway's 'admin' settings from a web browser? That's a pretty geeky thing to try to do, granted, but trying to get the right technician on the phone is pretty hard, too.


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## convergent

epstewart said:


> When you said you initially couldn't get the TiVo to connect, did you mean the Mini or the Bolt ... or both?


I don't think he has a Mini yet.


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## mrbluesky

I have a Tivo Bolt and Mini both connected by by FIOS router using ethernet connections which work fine but I would like to take advantage and use MoCA. 
My router is MoCA ready and I see how I can connect Bolt and Mini to both use MoCA. I have internet-only and the FIOS input feeds all of the coax that runs through the house and all of my rooms.

Unfortunately the Bolt doesn't have two separate inputs for antenna and one for cable. Is there any way I could configure my system to (1) allow MoCA and (2) accept OTA antenna feed maybe through the use of a splitter/combiner and possible a filter of some sort? Any advice or guidance would be appreciated!


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## mdavej

I use a satellite diplexer which seems so work fine. I use a pair of them, one to combine on the OTA end and split on the first Moca drop.


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## fcfc2

mrbluesky said:


> I have a Tivo Bolt and Mini both connected by by FIOS router using ethernet connections which work fine but I would like to take advantage and use MoCA.
> My router is MoCA ready and I see how I can connect Bolt and Mini to both use MoCA. I have internet-only and the FIOS input feeds all of the coax that runs through the house and all of my rooms.
> 
> Unfortunately the Bolt doesn't have two separate inputs for antenna and one for cable. Is there any way I could configure my system to (1) allow MoCA and (2) accept OTA antenna feed maybe through the use of a splitter/combiner and possible a filter of some sort? Any advice or guidance would be appreciated!


If you have a separate coax from the OTA, reversing a Sat grade diplexer, then connect the antenna feed to the "antenna" leg of the diplexer, run a short coax from the "input" leg on the diplexer to the Bolt and connect the "sat" output on the diplexer to the rest of your coax network. I believe this might work and eliminate the need for a MoCA filter on the antenna leg.


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## foghorn2

Option 1

Get a 2 way 1002-1675MHZ cable splitter.

Connect the antenna to a POE filter and the filter to the "IN" leg of the splitter.

Connect one "out" leg to your Moca Router with a short coax jumper cable, Connect the other leg to the existing Coax cable that used to be plugged to your Moca router.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Option 2

Disconnect the Coax from the Moca capable router.

Connect that cable to the OTA antenna with a POE filter.

Connect Ethernet cable from router to the Bolt.

Let Bolt create the Moca network.


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## foghorn2

Do not use Diplexers, they are not meant for this puropse.


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## fcfc2

foghorn2 said:


> Do not use Diplexers, they are not meant for this puropse.


Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't using the diplexer work?
EDIT: In the absence of any coherent argument as to the reason(s) for not using a diplexer in this particular situation, I have to further recommend its use. In fact, it is particularly well suited for this application because it would be doing pretty much exactly what it was designed for, i.e., allow the OTA frequencies to reach the Bolt and simultaneously allow for the higher MoCA frequencies(similar to Satellite frequencies) to be passed to and from the Bolt without the 2 frequencies interfering with one another. 
Not sure what "puropuse" one thinks is proper for a diplexer, but this application seems to be pretty much exactly what a diplexer is supposed to do.
Further, if the OP is like the majority of Fios users and using a Fios router as indicated, he is also likely to be receiving his internet signals via coax (MoCA WAN) removing the coax to the Fios router will immediately stop his internet connection. If this is the case, neither of the suggested "Option 1, or Option 2" is going to work.


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## snerd

foghorn2 said:


> Do not use Diplexers, they are not meant for this puropse.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with using a diplexer to split/joint MoCA and OTA signals. Neither the diplexer nor the RF signals will know or care what function the diplexer was originally designed to perform.

Having said that, it can be important to understand how the operation of a diplexer differs from the operation of a splitter in order to use them properly.


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## snerd

mdavej said:


> I use a satellite diplexer which seems so work fine. I use a pair of them, one to combine on the OTA end and split on the first Moca drop.


I understand combining at the OTA end. Why do you need to split them at the other end?


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## mdavej

I'm really not sure. That was just the recommended way when I used it with Satellite. Probably unnecessary with TiVo now that I think about it.


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## snerd

foghorn2 said:


> Option 1
> 
> Get a 2 way 1002-1675MHZ cable splitter.
> 
> Connect the antenna to a POE filter and the filter to the "IN" leg of the splitter.
> 
> Connect one "out" leg to your Moca Router with a short coax jumper cable, Connect the other leg to the existing Coax cable that used to be plugged to your Moca router.


This is a really bad idea. The problem is that the FiOS system might still be putting catv signals on the coax, even though the user isn't paying for them or accessing them. This setup will send those signals to the OTA antenna and broadcast them all over the neighborhood, and the FCC generally frowns on that.

A similar problem exists with cable "internet only" connections.


> Option 2
> 
> Disconnect the Coax from the Moca capable router.
> 
> Connect that cable to the OTA antenna with a POE filter.
> 
> Connect Ethernet cable from router to the Bolt.
> 
> Let Bolt create the Moca network.


This option could work. Using a diplexer at the Bolt seems simpler to me.


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> ... it can be important to understand how the operation of a diplexer differs from the operation of a splitter in order to use them properly.


snerd,

How does the operation of a diplexer differ from that of a splitter, technically speaking?

I can't say I have ever used a diplexer, as I don't have an apparent need for one, but my hasty research seems to show that a satellite diplexer is quite inexpensive. mrbluesky can easily try one and see whether it works for him. If not, little harm done.

He can in that case, I believe, substitute an ordinary coaxial splitter instead. He would need to be sure to get one with a bandwidth going up to at least 1675 MHz. He ought to scan back through this thread to see the discussions of which brands and models work for MoCA, and which (oddly, despite their nominal bandwidth) don't. And he ought to put a MoCA PoE (point of entry) filter on the leg of the splitter to which the antenna attaches, so that his MoCA signal doesn't get dissipated out through the antenna.


----------



## snerd

epstewart said:


> How does the operation of a diplexer differ from that of a splitter, technically speaking?


There are two main differences between splitters and diplexers.

Signal flow in splitters is the same at all frequencies that the splitter supports. Diplexers have filters that change the behavior depending on the frequency, so that only frequencies below 1GHz pass between the IN/OUT and UHF/VHF ports, while only frequencies above 1GHz pass between the IN/OUT and SAT ports. In effect, a diplexer has a "slow lane" and a "fast lane".

The second big difference is that diplexers have low loss between ports, because at any given frequency the diplexer is trying to pass all of the RF signal between two of the ports. A (balanced) splitter distributes the RF signal power evenly to all of the output ports so that all "downstream" devices can receive the signal.

Splitters and diplexers are both bi-directional devices, so either can be turned around to act as a joiner. They are also both "reciprocal" devices, which means that for any pair of ports, the amount of signal loss will be the same whether the signals are passing in the forward direction or in the reverse direction. This becomes important with MoCA signals that pass up through the coax/splitters to reflect off the PoE filter, then pass back down through the coax/splitters to reach the other MoCA devices in the system. So, if signals are passing through a balanced 4-way splitter that has 7dB of loss when signals pass from the input port to one of the output ports, then "upstream" MoCA signals going through that splitter will also have 7dB loss.

The physical law of reciprocity applies to the entire coax network in your home. The consequence is this: say you have a Bolt and a Roamio Pro that are connected by MoCA so they can share content in either direction. There will be significant signal loss each time the MoCA signals pass through any splitter, but the loss will be the same in either direction. So, if the overall loss for MoCA signals is 40dB when passing from the Bolt to the Roamio, then the overall loss will be the same 40dB when passing signals in the opposite direction from the Roamio to the Bolt.



> I can't say I have ever used a diplexer, as I don't have an apparent need for one, but my hasty research seems to show that a satellite diplexer is quite inexpensive. mrbluesky can easily try one and see whether it works for him. If not, little harm done.


Yup, diplexers are typically priced similarly to splitters.



> He can in that case, I believe, substitute an ordinary coaxial splitter instead. He would need to be sure to get one with a bandwidth going up to at least 1675 MHz. He ought to scan back through this thread to see the discussions of which brands and models work for MoCA, and which (oddly, despite their nominal bandwidth) don't. And he ought to put a MoCA PoE (point of entry) filter on the leg of the splitter to which the antenna attaches, so that his MoCA signal doesn't get dissipated out through the antenna.


Nope. The problem is that the FiOS system probably puts CATV signals on the coax even though they are not used, and they will clash with OTA signals. No combination of splitters and PoE filters can prevent this clash, but a diplexer can prevent the clash because the diplexer can pass only the MoCA signals to/from the FiOS coax while passing only the OTA signals to/from the antenna. As an added bonus, the diplexer keeps the MoCA signals away from the antenna, so no additional PoE filter is required.


----------



## epstewart

snerd said:


> There are two main differences between splitters and diplexers.
> 
> Signal flow in splitters is the same at all frequencies that the splitter supports. Diplexers have filters that change the behavior depending on the frequency, so that only frequencies below 1GHz pass between the IN/OUT and UHF/VHF ports, while only frequencies above 1GHz pass between the IN/OUT and SAT ports. In effect, a diplexer has a "slow lane" and a "fast lane".
> 
> The second big difference is that diplexers have low loss between ports, because at any given frequency the diplexer is trying to pass all of the RF signal between two of the ports. A (balanced) splitter distributes the RF signal power evenly to all of the output ports so that all "downstream" devices can receive the signal.
> 
> Splitters and diplexers are both bi-directional devices, so either can be turned around to act as a joiner. They are also both "reciprocal" devices, which means that for any pair of ports, the amount of signal loss will be the same whether the signals are passing in the forward direction or in the reverse direction. This becomes important with MoCA signals that pass up through the coax/splitters to reflect off the PoE filter, then pass back down through the coax/splitters to reach the other MoCA devices in the system. So, if signals are passing through a balanced 4-way splitter that has 7dB of loss when signals pass from the input port to one of the output ports, then "upstream" MoCA signals going through that splitter will also have 7dB loss.
> 
> The physical law of reciprocity applies to the entire coax network in your home. The consequence is this: say you have a Bolt and a Roamio Pro that are connected by MoCA so they can share content in either direction. There will be significant signal loss each time the MoCA signals pass through any splitter, but the loss will be the same in either direction. So, if the overall loss for MoCA signals is 40dB when passing from the Bolt to the Roamio, then the overall loss will be the same 40dB when passing signals in the opposite direction from the Roamio to the Bolt.
> 
> Yup, diplexers are typically priced similarly to splitters.
> 
> Nope. The problem is that the FiOS system probably puts CATV signals on the coax even though they are not used, and they will clash with OTA signals. No combination of splitters and PoE filters can prevent this clash, but a diplexer can prevent the clash because the diplexer can pass only the MoCA signals to/from the FiOS coax while passing only the OTA signals to/from the antenna. As an added bonus, the diplexer keeps the MoCA signals away from the antenna, so no additional PoE filter is required.


This is useful information, snerd. Thanks. I hope mrbluesky is still with us, that he tries the diplexer, and that he reports back his results.


----------



## saeba

Just a report in ... I replaced my MoCA 1.0/1.1 network (three ECB3500Ts) with MoCA 2.0 units (three ECB6200S02s) about 60days ago. Very, very happy. The ECB3500Ts would drop connectivity about once a month or so and I'd have to reboot all three units to get a solid network going again. The ECB6200S02s have been rock solid.


----------



## mrbluesky

Fcfc2, sneered, epstewart, thank you guys so much for the advice and input. I'll definitely report back in a week and let you know how it turns out. Would have been easier if Tivo simply included a second input for antenna in. Much appreciated!


----------



## aaronwt

saeba said:


> Just a report in ... I replaced my MoCA 1.0/1.1 network (three ECB3500Ts) with MoCA 2.0 units (three ECB6200S02s) about 60days ago. Very, very happy. The ECB3500Ts would drop connectivity about once a month or so and I'd have to reboot all three units to get a solid network going again. The ECB6200S02s have been rock solid.


What kind of speeds have you seen for the max throughput?


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## saeba

aaronwt said:


> What kind of speeds have you seen for the max throughput?


I haven't got anything that can really push the MoCA to its limits (listed at 800Mbps). I really bought it because I was tired of the monthly link failures by the ECB3500Ts.

I'll take home my work laptop tonite and give it a try to my home server. Both have SSD drives and gigabit ethernet ports.


----------



## saeba

saeba said:


> I haven't got anything that can really push the MoCA to its limits (listed at 800Mbps). I really bought it because I was tired of the monthly link failures by the ECB3500Ts.
> 
> I'll take home my work laptop tonite and give it a try to my home server. Both have SSD drives and gigabit ethernet ports.


I transferred two large files (6.8 gb total) from my server (Dell XPS 8300 Intel [email protected]) to my laptop (Lenovo x250 Intel [email protected]) via gigabit ethernet connections to 2 ECB6200S02s. Both systems have SSD drives. Sustained throughput was 61.5MBps (~500mbps) with bursts up to 600mbps. So definitely way beyond MoCA 1.0/1.1 speeds (~175mbps). Tested a couple of times with same results. Testing them both on gigabit ethernet resulted in sustained speeds of 113mbps (~900mbps).


----------



## BeachBill

Would this setup work?
Thanks in advance for any help.


----------



## fcfc2

BeachBill said:


> Would this setup work?
> Thanks in advance for any help.


Hi Bill,
I think you will have to change the location of the POE filter to the input of that splitter, you don't want MoCA frequencies going back up either the cable or the antenna line. 
Other issue is that the OTA Roamio does not have builtin MoCA so you will need another MoCA adapter for that leg.
Edit: Depending on what MoCA adapter you choose for the OTA Roamio, you may need to add another 2 way splitter.


----------



## BeachBill

> I think you will have to change the location of the POE filter to the input of that splitter, you don't want MoCA frequencies going back up either the cable or the antenna line.
> Other issue is that the OTA Roamio does not have builtin MoCA so you will need another MoCA adapter for that leg.
> Edit: Depending on what MoCA adapter you choose for the OTA Roamio, you may need to add another 2 way splitter.


Thank you so much for your help. I have updated the diagram as you suggested. Please let me know what you think. Also, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "depending on what MoCA adapter I chose for the OTA Roamio, I may need to add another 2 way splitter".

I hope that I can connect the MoCA network to the OTA Roamio and mini with a single coax line to each. If I need to do something different, please let me know. Also, I am very interested in recommendations for the antenna, splitter and combiner. The broadcast stations I need to pick up are up to 50 miles away and I need to cover an area north and south west.
Thanks again for any help,
Bill


----------



## krkaufman

BeachBill said:


> Would this setup work?
> Thanks in advance for any help.


I'm curious about the locations of the various components pictured, wondering if the connections can be reconfigured to simplify the setup and minimize signal loss. I'd also like someone to explain how the Internet and Antenna signals will combine without interfering. (I get how MoCA and Antenna can reside on the same coax, given their non-overlapping frequencies, but the same, in my [mis?]understanding, cannot be said -- without qualifications -- for cable Internet and Antenna.)


----------



## krkaufman

BeachBill said:


> I hope that I can connect the MoCA network to the OTA Roamio and mini with a single coax line to each.


As mentioned above, it all depends on where you had planned on placing the "combiner" and 3-way "splitter" in your original diagram. IF those devices were to be co-located, I believe you could instead use a splitter and diplexer as pictured below to reach your objective.

(I'll leave any further comments aside, for now, in case this configuration isn't doable owing to your cable run specifics.)


----------



## BeachBill

When I had the house built 20 years ago, I had separate coax lines run to six rooms. All these coax lines enter the house at the same point. Attached is a diagram of what I am having to work with to cut the cable.
View attachment OTA-Moca-House.pdf

Thanks for any help.
Bill


----------



## fcfc2

BeachBill said:


> Thank you so much for your help. I have updated the diagram as you suggested. Please let me know what you think. Also, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "depending on what MoCA adapter I chose for the OTA Roamio, I may need to add another 2 way splitter".
> 
> I hope that I can connect the MoCA network to the OTA Roamio and mini with a single coax line to each. If I need to do something different, please let me know. Also, I am very interested in recommendations for the antenna, splitter and combiner. The broadcast stations I need to pick up are up to 50 miles away and I need to cover an area north and south west.
> Thanks again for any help,
> Bill


Hi again,
A couple of things, first I am assuming based on your diagram that there are constraints which would force you to connect in the manner described in your diagram. I am speaking in terms of the coax runs in particular. What you diagrammed is not the ideal setup as hinted at by some of the comments of krkaufman regarding the combining of both OTA and cable internet. Normally the recommendation would be to never do that but in your case again assuming some fixed constraints, I calculated that internet only signals ordinarily come in and out at very low frequencies(sub 50MGz) much below the OTA frequencies and that they would not immediately conflict or interfere with each other and that because OTA folks seem to complain regularly about "weak" signals that these may not travel very far back upstream on the cable side. I may be wrong and technically you should never combine the 2, period. Ideally there should be a completely separate coax run for the OTA and cable internet lines, but you have my thinking on this already. 
Depending on which MoCA adapter is used by the Roamio, some adapters have both an "in and out" port, where as others including the new Tivo branded one, have only a single "in" port. If you get an adapter with one port, you will need an additional 2 way splitter (MoCA rated recommended) to connect both the adapter and the Roamio on the same leg, and if you get one with both "in and out" ports, you can use the "out" port to feed the Roamio.
I responded with the best chance of making the prescribed circumstances work without major rewiring...not in a "best practices" form.
EDIT: After looking at the latest home run wiring diagram, I would recommend that the one line feeding the cable modem be removed from the splitter and connected to the main cable feed via a simple barrel connector. Then the remaining splitter be connected to the OTA line via it's input.
The problem at this point is going to be to then get either an Ethernet line somehow connected to the Roamio from the router or run another length of coax from the OTA side nearby the router so an Ethernet cable can be then connected to the router via a MoCA adapter.
EDIT2: Krkaufman, welcome back.


----------



## snerd

fcfc2 said:


> I calculated that internet only signals ordinarily come in and out at very low frequencies(sub 50MGz) much below the OTA frequencies and that they would not immediately conflict or interfere with each other and that because OTA folks seem to complain regularly about "weak" signals that these may not travel very far back upstream on the cable side. I may be wrong and technically you should never combine the 2, period. Ideally there should be a completely separate coax run for the OTA and cable internet lines, but you have my thinking on this already.


If these are DOCSIS signals, only the upstream signals are below 50MHz. The downstream signals will come in multiple 6MHz chunks that would otherwise be assigned to CATV signals, which could easily clash with OTA.


----------



## krkaufman

BeachBill said:


> When I had the house built 20 years ago, I had separate coax lines run to six rooms. All these coax lines enter the house at the same point. Attached is a diagram of what I am having to work with to cut the cable.
> View attachment 25622


Given your diagram, I'm assuming you had planned to run the antenna coax to this outside location -- but that you'd planned to combine the Internet and Antenna signals prior to the splitter. Correct? If so, my diagram above should suit your needs, with the diplexer being co-located with the splitter, outside, and connected via a short coax jumper to an output on the splitter. The diplexer would simply combine the MoCA and Antenna signals for the single coax run to the room housing the Roamio OTA.

Assuming you connect things per my diagram above, the coax line coming to the Roamio OTA room would have MoCA and Antenna signals ONLY, while all the other coax lines coming from the splitter would have both cable Internet and MoCA signals available (and *NO* Antenna signals). Another benefit is that the diplexer should minimize signal loss from the Antenna (as it's avoiding the loss at the splitter); next best thing next to a direct coax run.

My diagram also assumes your second MoCA adapter would be the same model as you'd depicted for connecting to the modem/router, allowing you to connect your Roamio OTA to its MoCA adapter's coax out and Ethernet ports. Note that if you have multiple network-able devices at the same location as the Roamio OTA, you could connect a network switch to the "Roamio's" MoCA adapter and then connect the Roamio OTA and the other devices to the network switch, to provide wired networking for multiple devices at this location.

(hi, fc)


----------



## krkaufman

BeachBill said:


> When I had the house built 20 years ago, I had separate coax lines run to six rooms. All these coax lines enter the house at the same point. Attached is a diagram of what I am having to work with to cut the cable.
> View attachment 25622


Oh, also...

It is assumed that any splitters will be MoCA-compatible.

And, echoing fcfc2's concerns above regarding the cable Internet signal strength at the cable modem, you may want to either consider a separate coax run to the cable modem *or* employing a 2-way splitter above the planned N-way splitter, to stick with the coax runs as-is but maximize the signal going to the cable modem. See diagram below, as an example...


----------



## BeachBill

Thanks to everyone for your help. krkaufman, I can easily set up the network the way you show. My question is, will both the internet signal and the antenna signal be available to the both the HDTVs?

I plan to use MoCA splitters.
Thanks again,
Bill


----------



## krkaufman

BeachBill said:


> krkaufman, I can easily set up the network the way you show. My question is, will both the internet signal and the antenna signal be available to the *both* the HDTVs?


Nope. Per my last diagram, the Antenna signal will only be directly available to the Roamio OTA, and nothing else; the "Antenna + MoCA" coax goes into the Roamio OTA's MoCA adapter and from there to the Roamio, with no coax connection directly to the HDTV. The HDTVs are connected only via HDMI, as in all your drawings. If you want the antenna signal available to the Roamio OTA *and* directly to all your HDTVs, connected to each HDTV's coax input, this is a newly declared requirement and a bit of reconfiguration would be needed. Doable; just not accounted for.


----------



## BeachBill

snerd said:


> If these are DOCSIS signals, only the upstream signals are below 50MHz. The downstream signals will come in multiple 6MHz chunks that would otherwise be assigned to CATV signals, which could easily clash with OTA.


My DSL Modem is a Motorola SBG6580. The specification shows its bandwidth as:
Downstream: < or = 48 MHz
Upstream: 200 kHz, 400 kHz, 800 kHz, 1.6 MHz, 3.2 MHz, 6.4 MHz

Since the internet signal works with this modem, would that suggest that the internet bandwidth would be compatible with both the OTA bandwidth and the MoCA bandwidth?


----------



## BeachBill

krkaufman said:


> Nope. Per my last diagram, the Antenna signal will only be directly available to the Roamio OTA, and nothing else; the "Antenna + MoCA" coax goes into the Roamio OTA's MoCA adapter and from there to the Roamio, with no coax connection directly to the HDTV. The HDTVs are connected only via HDMI, as in all your drawings. If you want the antenna signal available to the Roamio OTA *and* directly to all your HDTVs, connected to each HDTV's coax input, this is a newly declared requirement and a bit of reconfiguration would be needed. Doable; just not accounted for.


I was just confused. You are correct that the only requirement is that the antenna gets to the Roamio OTA. I plan to use MoCA and the mini to watch the OTA channels and such streaming as Netflix, Amazon Prime, etc on the other HDTVs.

Thanks so much for your help,
Bill


----------



## krkaufman

BeachBill said:


> I was just confused. You are correct that the only requirement is that the antenna gets to the Roamio OTA. I plan to use MoCA and the mini to watch the OTA channels and such streaming as Netflix, Amazon Prime, etc on the other HDTVs.


Ok, phew!! That last diagram of mine should do the trick, then.

You can scan up-thread or post a reply if you're looking for a SAT/ANT diplexer recommendation.

In the *special case* of your only running 3 coax lines from your outside components to your rooms (rather than 6 lines as in your "before" diagram), you could replace the 2-way and N-way splitters in my last diagram with a single unbalanced 3-way splitter, connecting the low-loss output to the coax line running to the cable modem/router.


----------



## krkaufman

BeachBill said:


> My question is, will both the internet signal and the antenna signal be available to the both the HDTVs?


Just to be clear, regarding the "Internet signal," as indicated in my last diagram, the MoCA signal will be present in each room. How you make use of the MoCA connectivity is up to you.

As in the previous discussion regarding the antenna signal, the HDTVs won't have any direct wired networking connectivity; as diagrammed, the MoCA signal feeds: (1) the Roamio's MoCA adapter, which provides a wired network connection to the Roamio OTA, only; and (2) the TiVo Mini. Alternate configurations are possible to provide wired network connections for multiple devices in each room, if needed, including the example previously mentioned:


krkaufman said:


> Note that if you have multiple network-able devices at the same location as the Roamio OTA, you could connect a network switch to the "Roamio's" MoCA adapter and then connect the Roamio OTA and the other devices to the network switch, to provide wired networking for multiple devices at this location.


----------



## krkaufman

BeachBill said:


> Thanks so much for your help,
> Bill


Happy to have (possibly) helped. Do let us know how it works out...


----------



## BeachBill

krkaufman said:


> Happy to have (possibly) helped. Do let us know how it works out...


I will keep everyone posted. Step 1 is to purchase an antenna and just plug it in outside and see how OTA reception looks on the HDTVs in the house. I plan to purchase a Lava 8008 antenna. Thanks again for the help and any advice or heads up.
Bill


----------



## krkaufman

BeachBill said:


> I will keep everyone posted. Step 1 is to purchase an antenna and just plug it in outside and see how OTA reception looks on the HDTVs in the house. I plan to purchase a Lava 8008 antenna.


Another config variation to consider, should you want the antenna signal available to more than just the Roamio OTA... (plus some alternate scenarios for the rooms, as well)...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64866067/BeachBill_OTA-MoCA-alt3.jpg


----------



## BigBob32

Hi,

I saw in one of the MOCA network responses a mention of:
TP-LINK TL-PA8010P KIT AV1200 Gigabit with Power Outlet Pass-through Powerline Adapter, Up to 1200Mbps

I was wondering if anybody knew what the difference was between that and:

TP-LINK TL-PA8010 KIT AV1200 Gigabit Powerline Adapter, Up to 1200Mbps

What is the pass through part? So I could do this instead of a MOCA network for my bolt and TiVo minis? Having trouble seeting up MOCA network with Xfinity using the Arris TMG1682G modem.

Thanks in advance!!


----------



## scotchburg

Hello, all. First time poster here.

I currently have Fios running 1 Roamio Plus and 3 minis. Since the fios router provides the MOCA network i don't have to worry about ethernet cables, etc.

Now i'm in the process of building a new house. Most of the primary rooms of the house that will immediately have TV will be wired with both Cat6 and Coax. A few rooms (guest bedroom, etc.) will only have Coax.

I just want to confirm that the way i intend to hook this all up will work. I plan on having an Arris SB6183 Modem and separate router at the POE, where the cable comes into the house at the network rack in the basement. Before I plug that cable into the modem I will install a POE MOCA filter, and then a 2-way splitter. One leg to the router and one leg to the splitter that will feed all the coax rooms.

The modem will out put to the router. Out of the router will be some of those homeruns to ethernet jacks in bedrooms and family rooms. There will also be at least one additional router installed as just a WAP to extend WiFi (a switch may be necessary at the primary router to ensure enough physical connections are available).

The Roamio plus will provide the MOCA to the whole network. It will be used at one of the locations that have both ethernet and coax outlets. Since not ALL rooms have wired ethernet though, i should just use coax at the mini locations instead of the ethernet jack, correct? My understanding is that once you're going the MOCA route you need to connect the minis to coax even if ethernet is available?

Just want to confirm my assumptions for how this will all be connected is correct. Any recommendations to change anything? Any additional filters or adapters that I'll need that I haven't addressed or expected to need based on the noted configuration? 

Many thanks from a Noob !


----------



## thyname

It is my understanding that a MOCA POA filter is not required with Verizon FIOS. I have VZ FIOS myself, and this was stated to me by both TiVo rep and VZ technician.

I don't see any issues having Minis connected via Ethernet while Roamio is connected via coax. Both types of connections can coexist.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## snerd

scotchburg said:


> My understanding is that once you're going the MOCA route you need to connect the minis to coax even if ethernet is available?


Actually, you can mix ethernet and MoCA connections in almost any imaginable combination, as long as all devices are on the same network. The Roamio bridges between MoCA and ethernet, so in effect MoCA simply extends your network onto the coax.

One advantage to connecting the Minis by MoCA is that the streaming data will be confined to the MoCA portion of the network so that it doesn't interfere with the other ethernet bandwidth.


----------



## scotchburg

snerd said:


> Actually, you can mix ethernet and MoCA connections in almost any imaginable combination, as long as all devices are on the same network. The Roamio bridges between MoCA and ethernet, so in effect MoCA simply extends your network onto the coax.
> 
> One advantage to connecting the Minis by MoCA is that the streaming data will be confined to the MoCA portion of the network so that it doesn't interfere with the other ethernet bandwidth.


Thanks! that is helpful and actually makes sense in my dumb head!


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## scotchburg

snerd said:


> Actually, you can mix ethernet and MoCA connections in almost any imaginable combination, as long as all devices are on the same network. The Roamio bridges between MoCA and ethernet, so in effect MoCA simply extends your network onto the coax.
> 
> One advantage to connecting the Minis by MoCA is that the streaming data will be confined to the MoCA portion of the network so that it doesn't interfere with the other ethernet bandwidth.


Forgot to ask - I will always keep the Roamio connected with both the ethernet and coax connections regardless of which combination of connection types are used on the minis, right?


----------



## fcfc2

scotchburg said:


> Forgot to ask - I will always keep the Roamio connected with both the ethernet and coax connections regardless of which combination of connection types are used on the minis, right?


Assuming the Roamio is used to "create a MoCA network" and you have at least one mini using MoCA, then yes.


----------



## krkaufman

scotchburg said:


> The Roamio plus will provide the MOCA to the whole network. It will be used at one of the locations that have both ethernet and coax outlets. Since not ALL rooms have wired ethernet though, i should just use coax at the mini locations instead of the ethernet jack, correct? My understanding is that once you're going the MOCA route you need to connect the minis to coax even if ethernet is available?





snerd said:


> Actually, you can mix ethernet and MoCA connections in almost any imaginable combination, as long as all devices are on the same network. The Roamio bridges between MoCA and ethernet, so in effect MoCA simply extends your network onto the coax.


TiVo's Custom Installers "Tips & Tricks" doc recommends limiting MoCA-connected Minis to 5...
_For best results when using MoCA, limit the number of TiVo devices on the network to five. If more TiVo devices are needed, please use an Ethernet connection instead._​... but I suspect they're being overly cautious. Having the Minis connected via MoCA is different than each of them streaming some high bandwidth HD content simultaneously.



snerd said:


> One advantage to connecting the Minis by MoCA is that the streaming data will be confined to the MoCA portion of the network so that it doesn't interfere with the other ethernet bandwidth.


Another benefit of connecting the Minis by MoCA is that their connectivity to their host DVR won't be lost in the event of a router reboot; however, on the other hand, Mini host and Internet connectivity *will* be lost any time the MoCA-bridging TiVo Roamio is rebooted. (This is why I still prefer using a dedicated MoCA adapter rather than a TiVO DVR as my MoCA bridge, and also use a separate network switch as my central wired Ethernet "hub," rather than the built-in switch ports of my router.)

It's also nice to have the flexibility to choose/switch between Ethernet and MoCA connectivity for a given Mini, should some future TiVo software update create flakiness with one technology or the other. You know, on the off chance of that happening.


----------



## krkaufman

thyname said:


> It is my understanding that a MOCA POA filter is not required with Verizon FIOS. I have VZ FIOS myself, and this was stated to me by both TiVo rep and VZ technician.


You're correct re: FiOS and the non-need for a MoCA PoE filter; however, I'm guessing, based on the planned setup, that FiOS won't be available at their new location and so they'll be going with some other cable Internet/TV provider, and so the MoCA PoE filter will be needed -- and is correctly located in their planned setup*.

* ... with the caveat that they meant "modem" where they'd typed "router" when describing what would be connected to the PoE 2-way coax splitter.



scotchburg said:


> I plan on having an Arris SB6183 Modem and separate router at the POE, where the cable comes into the house at the network rack in the basement. *Before I plug that cable into the modem I will install a POE MOCA filter, and then a 2-way splitter. One leg to the router and one leg to the splitter that will feed all the coax rooms.*



edit: p.s. Ha!, yeah, methinks scotchburg *is* going with a cable provider, given the subject to his post: "*New Comcast Service*." Not sure, though; I'll have to do some research regarding this "Comcast" company.


----------



## krkaufman

BigBob32 said:


> I saw in one of the MOCA network responses a mention of:
> TP-LINK TL-PA8010P KIT AV1200 Gigabit with Power Outlet Pass-through Powerline Adapter, Up to 1200Mbps
> 
> I was wondering if anybody knew what the difference was between that and:
> 
> TP-LINK TL-PA8010 KIT AV1200 Gigabit Powerline Adapter, Up to 1200Mbps
> 
> What is the pass through part?


The "outlet pass-through" just means that model includes a power outlet into which you could plug-in and power another device. Compare the pics for the models and you'll quickly see the difference. (The selection buttons for the Amazon product listing provide a good view toggle.)



BigBob32 said:


> So I could do this instead of a MOCA network for my bolt and TiVo minis? Having trouble seeting up MOCA network with Xfinity using the Arris TMG1682G modem.


Going with a Powerline solution rather than MoCA is not something I'd recommend if you *can* do MoCA but are just having difficulty getting it setup. You'll be well-rewarded in working through whatever hiccups are hampering your MoCA setup.

That said, Powerline *can* be an alternative, albeit officially not supported by TiVo, if you can't do wired Ethernet or MoCA, as is Wireless per some TCF members.


----------



## scotchburg

krkaufman said:


> You're correct re: FiOS and the non-need for a MoCA PoE filter; however, I'm guessing, based on the planned setup, that FiOS won't be available at their new location and so they'll be going with some other cable Internet/TV provider, and so the MoCA PoE filter will be needed -- and is correctly located in their planned setup*.
> 
> * ... with the caveat that they meant "modem" where they'd typed "router" when describing what would be connected to the PoE 2-way coax splitter.
> ​
> edit: p.s. Ha!, yeah, methinks scotchburg *is* going with a cable provider, given the subject to his post: "*New Comcast Service*." Not sure, though; I'll have to do some research regarding this "Comcast" company.


Thank you, thank you  You are correct and we are def speaking about having to jump aboard the comcast wagon. unfortunately I have to transition to them at the new house, but with Tivo boxes in the mix instead of their boxes I think most things are neutralized. There's the benefit of the free cable card at least; i currently pay verizon for the first/only one i have...but then i have to buy a modem and router(s) instead of being able to use the actiontek one I own...actually, i think i'll be able to use that actiontek as a WAP somewhere at one end of the house...right?


----------



## krkaufman

scotchburg said:


> actually, i think i'll be able to use that actiontek as a WAP somewhere at one end of the house...right?


Likely, but I expect that's the least of your worries. (May not even be needed, depending on your choice of router and the size of your new house.)


----------



## krkaufman

BigBob32 said:


> Having trouble seeting up MOCA network with Xfinity using the Arris TMG1682G modem.


I'd suggest posting your MoCA roadblocks, here, and let the community see if it can help you sort it out. I was able to find your original post asking about MoCA, *here*, but it was light on specifics, especially where it comes to understanding how your rooms are connected to each other via coax and to the incoming Comcast coax line.

Your setup sounds pretty straightforward, so it's difficult to see where the troubles might lie, apart from disconnected cables, incompatible splitters, live Xfinity equipment on the same coax lines, or misconfigured TiVos.

Throw some details our way and maybe it can be figured out. The best start is often a diagram and/or description of your coax network, including everything currently connected and *how* they connect to each other. (And/or the specific errors/symptoms you're experiencing.)


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## krkaufman

JoeyD51 said:


> Just figured I would update. Bolt arrived, and it is awesome. Took a while to boot up, but when it did it Is great.
> 
> I initially couldn't connect to MoCA, so I had to call Comcast. They had to activate MoCA on my wireless device. So, after being transferred to 6 (you read that right, 6) different people, I finally got to someone at a higher level support position in their internet department.
> 
> Initially, we could not get the Tivo to connect, even though the gateway was MoCA enabled. We had to give the gateway a new encryption key, and then input that into the Bolt. and then Shazam, we were Moca connected. Next purchase, a Tivo Mini!


Interesting info, JoeyD51; thanks for posting.

One thing to keep in mind, should you find your TiVo network/MoCA connectivity getting flaky over time, is that other users have reported Comcast automatically shutting down MoCA on their gateways. I hope your setup remains stable, but see here for more info: 
TiVo, MOCA, and Comcast XB3 Modem​
And per the final post in the thread, there's a Comcast-administered "whitelist" workaround ...
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10823865#post10823865​


----------



## BeachBill

BeachBill said:


> I will keep everyone posted. Step 1 is to purchase an antenna and just plug it in outside and see how OTA reception looks on the HDTVs in the house. I plan to purchase a Lava 8008 antenna. Thanks again for the help and any advice or heads up.
> Bill


The antenna worked well. Picked up 34 channels. Unfortunately, "she who must be obeyed" is not comfortable giving up cable TV. However, I do have permission to look at replacing 3 DVRs that we rent with a TiVo Bolt. Thanks so very much for all the help and advice. I'll be going to Bold thread and looking at how to set it up.


----------



## krkaufman

BeachBill said:


> The antenna worked well. Picked up 34 channels. Unfortunately, "she who must be obeyed" is not comfortable giving up cable TV. However, I do have permission to look at replacing 3 DVRs that we rent with a TiVo Bolt. Thanks so very much for all the help and advice. I'll be going to Bold thread and looking at how to set it up.


You may still want to keep that antenna plan handy, as having an OTA-sourced TiVo as a supplement to a CableCard'd TiVo can be useful.


----------



## mdavej

BeachBill said:


> The antenna worked well. Picked up 34 channels. Unfortunately, "she who must be obeyed" is not comfortable giving up cable TV. However, I do have permission to look at replacing 3 DVRs that we rent with a TiVo Bolt. Thanks so very much for all the help and advice. I'll be going to Bold thread and looking at how to set it up.


Doesn't have to be all or nothing. OTA plus PS Vue to supplement gives you a 90% cable replacement for a fraction of the cost. Did that for my parents, and it's working great for them. I plan to do the same for myself in a year or so.

In any case, you can definitely get rid of all your cable boxes and cable DVRs.


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> The DOCSIS signals used by cable modems are assigned to 6MHz "channels" that may clash with the OTA frequencies. It is also likely that video signals will be on the coax from the cable company, so any "combiner" that tries to place those signals on the same coax is likely to cause problems.


Could a diplexer be used as a sort of MoCA-passthrough between the cable TV and OTA antenna coax segments? MoCA would be present across all the coax, but the diplexer would keep the cable and antenna signals separate.

The problem is whether the diplexer's SAT port would truly filter-out the cable TV and antenna signals. For example, the specs for the Holland DPD2 diplexer indicate a passthrough frequency range of 950-2150 MHz, so some cable TV signals might leak through to the antenna. Right?










NOTES:

Ideally, the amplifier would be a designed-for-MoCA amp, with a built-in MoCA filter.
ANT (VHF/UHF) port on diplexer should be terminated.
You could even place a CableCARD-capable TiVo in the cable modem room to tune & record cable TV content, should a hybrid setup be desired.

.


----------



## snerd

krkaufman said:


> Could a diplexer be used as a sort of MoCA-passthrough between the cable TV and OTA antenna coax segments? MoCA would be present across all the coax, but the diplexer would keep the cable and antenna signals separate.
> 
> The problem is whether the diplexer's SAT port would truly filter-out the cable TV and antenna signals. For example, the specs for the Holland DPD2 diplexer indicate a passthrough frequency range of 950-2150 MHz, so some cable TV signals might leak through to the antenna. Right?


The connection you show is likely to work just fine. If the cable company is using frequencies above 950MHz, then some small fraction of those signals would reach the antenna. In an ideal system, those signals would be entirely absorbed by the cable modem, but in reality there are always reflections and port coupling in the splitters that allow some of the signal to get through.


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> The connection you show is likely to work just fine. If the cable company is using frequencies above 950MHz, then some small fraction of those signals would reach the antenna. In an ideal system, those signals would be entirely absorbed by the cable modem, but in reality there are always reflections and port coupling in the splitters that allow some of the signal to get through.


Post-posting I was thinking that the amp would snuff the stray cable signals trying to find their way up the return path, depending on the amp's specs. Yes?


----------



## snerd

krkaufman said:


> Post-posting I was thinking that the amp would snuff the stray cable signals trying to find their way up the return path, depending on the amp's specs. Yes?


Yes, good point.

Using a different diplexer, perhaps this STVC would allow the 2x splitter to be eliminated by connecting the cable+PoE directly to the ANT/VHF/UHF port. The key difference in this diplexer is that it passes frequencies down to 5MHz, allowing the DOCSIS upstream signals to pass through the diplexer.

While I generally like the DPD2 diplexer, the specs for it are ambiguous. Some Holland docs show a VHF/UHF band of 40-806MHz, while others state 5-806MHz. I think I'll test one to find which spec matches reality...


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> Using a different diplexer, perhaps this STVC would allow the 2x splitter to be eliminated by connecting the cable+PoE directly to the ANT/VHF/UHF port. The key difference in this diplexer is that it passes frequencies down to 5MHz, allowing the DOCSIS upstream signals to pass through the diplexer.
> 
> While I generally like the DPD2 diplexer, the specs for it are ambiguous. Some Holland docs show a VHF/UHF band of 40-806MHz, while others state 5-806MHz. I think I'll test one to find which spec matches reality...


Yeah, having a diplexer in place of that splitter would be ideal (i.e. only the 1 diplexer), but the roadblock remains the splice frequencies between the bands. Too wide a range is slipping through the SAT port (beneath the MoCA ranges, from 950+ MHz) and too little through the ANT port (which cuts off at 806 MHz) when it comes to digital cable TV & Internet signals. The concern is that critical cable TV or DOCSIS channels might be lost with the top end of the cable TV/Internet frequency range, 806-1002 MHz, being filtered-out by the diplexer.

And now I'm concerned about the upstream path, 5-42 MHz -- were I to try using a diplexer to pass cable TV signals. Though this Holland specs doc states an identical frequency spec for the 2 different diplexer models, another Holland doc underscores your "ambiguous" comment, citing a 40+ MHz range.

What we need is a new diplexer, designed for cable TV & MoCA -- which could also be used for OTA & MoCA -- passing 5-1002 MHz through one port and 1125-1675 MHz through the other. Something like what's pictured on this web page (though, ideally, updated for MoCA 2.0):


----------



## HarperVision

The main reasons satellite is using diplexers is because satellite IF signals also have information in the lower cable frequency bands for SWiM, control signals, etc. so they naturally want to filter out any cable and OTA antenna channel freqs from the coax so it doesn't screw up their system. It also uses DC power over its coax and that's usually a no-no for cable. 

This is not the case when using cable or OTA tv with moca. Moca was designed to have other freqs below it (or above it in the case of the DECA version for satellite) and only transmits and uses freqs above 1150MHz, it doesn't care what's below that like satellite does.

This does hinge on making sure the right coax is used and all the connectors, splitters and amps are terminated correctly to avoid VSWR, reflections, noise, harmonics, etc. that could cause each band to interfere with each other. 

I do see the case of using one to keep moca off of your antenna though.

Separate frequencies do remain separate on the coax because.......well....they're separate! This phenomenon is bore out in many other ways on each and every day.


----------



## krkaufman

I can only speak for my experience, but I first learned of diplexers because they were used in our satellite installation the same way they're being used with OTA/MoCA installations... to merge and/or splice OTA/CATV & satellite signals (MoCA, in the case of TiVos) on a coax run. CATV (later, OTA) was fed to multiplexers in our basement, to distribute CATV signals along with satellite to each of our TV locations, but our satellite boxes only handled tuning and recording of satellite... so we needed diplexers to splice the CATV/OTA signal off onto its own coax line (then fed directly into ReplayTVs).

If satellite installers were merely looking to block non-satellite signals, I'd think they'd just use a filter, yeah?

Regardless, me want MoCA diplexers.

edit: p.s. Admittedly, our satellite setup was pre-SWM... and we never went SWM.


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> I do see the case of using one to keep moca off of your antenna though.


The biggest case to be made for MoCA diplexers, in my view, is for the main MoCA bridge installed at a cable modem & router, especially those like the TiVo Bridge that lack a RF Out port that could be used to feed the modem. Rather than having to split the signal, a MoCA diplexer could be used to effectively do the same thing but with much less signal loss. Same for any MoCA adapter being used at a CableCARD-enabled MoCA-less base Roamio location, split MoCA and the cable signal cleanly and with less loss than a splitter.


----------



## krkaufman

krkaufman said:


> What we need is a new diplexer, designed for cable TV & MoCA -- which could also be used for OTA & MoCA -- passing 5-1002 MHz through one port and 1125-1675 MHz through the other. Something like what's pictured on this web page (though, ideally, updated for MoCA 2.0)


Sadface...



> *Taikan: *Thank you for contacting Taikan Company, Inc. Unfortunately at this time we only sell to commercial cable system providers.
> 
> *Me: *If it's not a non-disclosure issue, could you share to whom you've sold any of the MoCA diplexers?
> 
> *Taikan: *Unfortunately at this time we cannot share this information.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> I can only speak for my experience, but I first learned of diplexers because they were used in our satellite installation the same way they're being used with OTA/MoCA installations... to merge and/or splice OTA/CATV & satellite signals (MoCA, in the case of TiVos) on a coax run. CATV (later, OTA) was fed to multiplexers in our basement, to distribute CATV signals along with satellite to each of our TV locations, but our satellite boxes only handled tuning and recording of satellite... so we needed diplexers to splice the CATV/OTA signal off onto its own coax line (then fed directly into ReplayTVs). If satellite installers were merely looking to block non-satellite signals, I'd think they'd just use a filter, yeah? Regardless, me want MoCA diplexers. edit: p.s. Admittedly, our satellite setup was pre-SWM... and we never went SWM.


Yes, that was to keep the cable/OTA signals out of the satellite coax input and the DC power from the satellite rcvr from leaking into the cable/OTA system, more so than "keeping them separate" on the coax cable itself. Cable, OTA and satellite IF (intermediate frequency, down converted from the lnb) all reside in a separate frequency spectrum on the cable, so they don't need another device inline to "separate them". Once SWiM came to be, they banned the use of diplexers because they had to use portions of that lower band for SWiM, DECA, etc. A diplexer IS a filter. A high pass on one leg and a low pass on the other.

In contrast, moca was designed to be with and compliment cable tv (and OTA by default) on the same coaxial cable. There's no extra power or control signals residing in the other's frequency ranges, so they can happily ride along the same freeway together in harmony. 

I think that "moca diplexer" you linked just may be snake oil and marketing speak personally, like some amps and splitters they call "moca ready". Companies and customers all over the country use cable and moca on the same home and business coaxial cabling without issue or the need for these.


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> ... more so than "keeping them separate" on the coax cable itself. Cable, OTA and satellite IF (intermediate frequency, down converted from the lnb) all reside in a separate frequency spectrum on the cable, so they don't need another device inline to "separate them".


Not sure I'm communicating effectively because that doesn't seem at all like what I thought I was trying to say. And I've found antenna/satellite diplexers to be exceedingly handy in OTA/MoCA installs, but their specs make them problematic for similar use in CATV/MoCA installs. I'm not really even sure what's being discussed/debated, at this point.



HarperVision said:


> Once SWiM came to be, they banned the use of diplexers because they had to use portions of that lower band for SWiM, DECA, etc.


Ironically, this is the entire point I was making regarding the need for a true MoCA diplexer, as current OTA/satellite diplexers are incompatible with CATV owing to the pass/stopbands for each port.


----------



## fyodor

HarperVision said:


> Yes, that was to keep the cable/OTA signals out of the satellite coax input and the DC power from the satellite rcvr from leaking into the cable/OTA system, more so than "keeping them separate" on the coax cable itself. Cable, OTA and satellite IF (intermediate frequency, down converted from the lnb) all reside in a separate frequency spectrum on the cable, so they don't need another device inline to "separate them". Once SWiM came to be, they banned the use of diplexers because they had to use portions of that lower band for SWiM, DECA, etc. A diplexer IS a filter. A high pass on one leg and a low pass on the other.
> 
> In contrast, moca was designed to be with and compliment cable tv (and OTA by default) on the same coaxial cable. There's no extra power or control signals residing in the other's frequency ranges, so they can happily ride along the same freeway together in harmony.
> 
> I think that "moca diplexer" you linked just may be snake oil and marketing speak personally, like some amps and splitters they call "moca ready". Companies and customers all over the country use cable and moca on the same home and business coaxial cabling without issue or the need for these.


I think his point was not that they can't coexist-it's that a diplexer will reduce your cable signal loss vs. a regular splitter, which sends all signals to both. This can be useful, especially when someone's cable signal may already be divided four or five ways before reaching a particular outlet.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> Not sure I'm communicating effectively because that doesn't seem at all like what I thought I was trying to say. And I've found antenna/satellite diplexers to be exceedingly handy in OTA/MoCA installs, but their specs make them problematic for similar use in CATV/MoCA installs. I'm not really even sure what's being discussed/debated, at this point.
> 
> Ironically, this is the entire point I was making regarding the need for a true MoCA diplexer, as current OTA/satellite diplexers are incompatible with CATV owing to the pass/stopbands for each port.


Haha, maybe not! Fair enough. 

But my point was......for moca you don't need a diplexer *AT ALL.*, unless you happen to have something causing noise/anomalies on one of the legs and would like to keep them "isolated" for some reason, but my thought on that would be....fix what's causing the noise!



fyodor said:


> I think his point was not that they can't coexist-it's that a diplexer will reduce your cable signal loss vs. a regular splitter, which sends all signals to both. This can be useful, especially when someone's cable signal may already be divided four or five ways before reaching a particular outlet.


Well I doubt that's true. Adding filtering and diodes (DC blocking) into the signal path will certainly reduce your signal more than a basically straight through path using a standard splitter.


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> But my point was......for moca you don't need a diplexer *AT ALL.*, unless you happen to have something causing noise/anomalies on one of the legs and would like to keep them "isolated" for some reason, but my thought on that would be....fix what's causing the noise!


Ok, but your point wholly discounts the myriad Internet search results demonstrating the value of antenna/satellite diplexers for OTA/MoCA installs, and any number of similar, though not without cautions, applications of satellite diplexers for CATV/MoCA installs. And it ignores the many such applications of diplexers found via searches on TCF alone.

Of course, when it comes down to it, noise could be abstracted as any unwanted signal on the line, so you're covered. 



HarperVision said:


> fyodor said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think his point was not that they can't coexist-it's that a diplexer will reduce your cable signal loss vs. a regular splitter, which sends all signals to both. This can be useful, especially when someone's cable signal may already be divided four or five ways before reaching a particular outlet.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I doubt that's true. Adding filtering and diodes (DC blocking) into the signal path will certainly reduce your signal more than a basically straight through path using a standard splitter.
Click to expand...

Doubt and speculation could be addressed by a review of component specifications.


----------



## fcfc2

I suppose anything in the absence of hard data can be argued about, but according to published information, the insertion loss through a diplexer is lower than even the 3dB on a standard 2 way splitter. How significant that is in the bigger picture is unknown, but on some installations a few dB's might make the difference.
Regarding differences in splitters with the now popular "MoCA capable" descriptive terms, or just plain "MoCA" somewhere in the product description, I also suspect marketing hype as those were the same splitters they were selling before the addition of the "MoCA" terminology. 
I think there is a difference between the above and those 2 brands which carry the "MoCA 2.0" rating, these would be the Verizon and Holland brands. I did some of my own testing some years ago now with various pairs of these and readily available brand name splitters and ran repeated speed tests. The Verizon brand had the highest throughput by about 5% but all the brands tested did "work". 
The point is that in situations which are marginal with MoCA, there would appear to be an advantage to the use of these brands in MoCA applications. There is ample anecdotal evidence in these forums to establishing that these brands are beneficial in getting success after failure with other brands including some which are rated at >2GHz.
There have been a few OTA applications where the judicious use of a diplexer seemed to work well and eliminate the need for a much more complicated setup. 
Regarding the issue of concerns about the "antenna" bandwidth on the most common readily available diplexers. I did use these some time ago on a cable modem setup which was sensitive to the MoCA frequencies, these were the Holland blue label brand. I had no problem with my cable modem after installing one, inverted, to my cable modem. But, I don't know for sure how low of frequency was being used by the cable company. If you are on a cable system which uses cable modems, non-Fios, simply inverting a diplexer and feeding the line going to the input through the "antenna" side and testing the internet speed before and after will tell you if it is problematic on "your" cable system. 
I personally doubt that there will be any issues as I suspect there is some variation in the bandwidth allowed at both "edges". Concern over the possible leakage above the diplexers stated range, assumes the cable company is using the frequencies about 806 or there abouts, and that for internet only customers, the cable company often uses a broad band notch filter to keep folks from "stealing" their signals.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> Ok, but your point wholly discounts the myriad Internet search results demonstrating the value of antenna/satellite diplexers for OTA/MoCA installs, and any number of similar, though not without cautions, applications of satellite diplexers for CATV/MoCA installs. And it ignores the many such applications of diplexers found via searches on TCF alone.
> 
> Of course, when it comes down to it, noise could be abstracted as any unwanted signal on the line, so you're covered.


Then why do we not see specific MoCA Diplexers being made and marketed in any real fashion? I'm not saying there is NO benefit, since it does separate the bands and filters each from the other and I guess would keep unwanted DC power from where it doesn't belong. I'm really just saying that it isn't as "required" as some are making it out to be. Don't worry, I'm sure some company will pick up on this and start to make and market their "MoCA Diplexers" to make a buck or three. If it gives people peace of mind or helps in their specific situation, then great, but I would ALWAYS recommend trying it without one and seeing your results first.



krkaufman said:


> Doubt and speculation could be addressed by a review of component specifications.


The 3db(or more) drop on standard splitters is mainly due to the isolation filters used to keep each leg isolated from one another. When you inject MoCA into the coax system, it's usually from a device like a STB (TiVo, DTV Genie, etc.) or a MoCA adapter with a pass-through, where no external splitter at all is being used, so to throw a diplexer in there where none is technically needed, then YOU just created a db loss yourself where none was present prior to. This is also true with a standard splitter, and worse as you say, but connecting it the way that it's recommended (STB, Adapter) doesn't need this approach AT ALL, like I said.

Of course this can be "what if'd to death", but that's not what we're talking about here. We are talking about why and what each technology was developed for, and Satellite Diplexers were designed for a specific need, reason and function, whereas MoCA Diplexers have not really been, because in the grand scheme of things, it's NOT a necessity, or engineers and companies would have said it is and designed and marketed accordingly.



fcfc2 said:


> ........
> There have been a few OTA applications where the judicious use of a diplexer seemed to work well and eliminate the need for a much more complicated setup. .......


and I have conceded as much already, saying it's good to have to keep the MoCA signals off of your antenna. :up:


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> ... and I have conceded as much already, saying it's good to have to keep the MoCA signals off of your antenna.


And which I didn't bother highlighting as better solved using a MoCA filter.



HarperVision said:


> We are talking about why and what each technology was developed for, ...


No, "we" weren't talking about that at all. That's just where you steered the "conversation," for some reason. Why a technology was developed is irrelevant to how it might be useful, practically.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> And which I didn't bother highlighting as better solved using a MoCA filter.


I was quoting fcfc2, not you.



krkaufman said:


> No, "we" weren't talking about that at all. That's just where you steered the "conversation," for some reason. Why a technology was developed is irrelevant to how it might be useful, practically.


It was steered that way for a reason, to avoid the assumption that satellite diplexers are recommended for MoCA installs, and they are not. Look at ANY company's website that deals with MoCA and you won't see mention of using satellite diplexers (or so called "MoCA Diplexers for that matter) to get their MoCA solution to work properly.

I've said my piece and it's clear we have differing opinions, but at least mine is on the side of the very industry being discussed, that I've been a part of for the better part of almost 30 years.

This is a hack is all, that I admit has some benefits though. I bear no ill will with nothing personal involved and enjoyed the healthy debate, sir! :up:


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> I was quoting fcfc2, not you.


Which has as little to do with the point expressed as this discussion with the original, practical post from which it was excreted.



HarperVision said:


> It was steered that way for a reason, to avoid the assumption that satellite diplexers are recommended for MoCA installs,...


How this is relevant to the reality that they have a practical use, or why the thread had to suffer so for the need to express that point in the seemingly most abstract, indirect way possible, is beyond me. But that's on me for not having the wisdom gained through years in the industry.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> Which has as little to with the point expressed as this discussion with the original, practical post from which it was excreted.
> 
> How this is relevant to the reality that they have a practical use, or why the thread had to suffer so for the need to express that point in the seemingly most abstract, indirect way possible, is beyond me. But that's on me for not having the wisdom gained through years in the industry.


Haha....you win....enjoy!


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> I've said my piece and it's clear we have differing opinions, but at least mine is on the side of the very industry being discussed, that I've been a part of for the better part of almost 30 years.


... but a 30 years during which, apparently, the relative signal loss of a diplexer versus splitter was never a matter of concern, discussion, research...


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> ... but a 30 years during which, apparently, the relative signal loss of a diplexer versus splitter was never a matter of concern, discussion, research...


I reiterate............



HarperVision said:


> ......The 3db(or more) drop on standard splitters is mainly due to the isolation filters used to keep each leg isolated from one another. When you inject MoCA into the coax system, it's usually from a device like a STB (TiVo, DTV Genie, etc.) or a MoCA adapter with a pass-through, where no external splitter at all is being used, so to throw a diplexer in there where none is technically needed, then YOU just created a db loss yourself where none was present prior to. This is also true with a standard splitter, and worse as you say, but connecting it the way that it's recommended (STB, Adapter) doesn't need this approach AT ALL, like I said.........


Plus there's THIS nugget from what seems to be a very respected member of DSL Reports:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r27980400-



> *More Fiber*
> MVM
> join:2005-09-26
> West Chester, PA
> kudos:31
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _said by austinpike:
> I'm using a Holland DPD2 diplexer to split the frequencies at each coax outlet (vhf outlet to TiVo, sat to Actiontec.) _
> 
> 
> 
> *The diplexers are your problem. Diplexers have high return loss. MOCA is a bi-directional protocol. There is no reason to use diplexers with MOCA. Replace the diplexer with a standard 1Ghz splitter.*
> --
> _There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't._
Click to expand...


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> I reiterate....


Reiterating incorrect or irrelevant information is of little use, unless you're being paid by the word.



HarperVision said:


> Plus there's THIS nugget from what seems to be a very respected member of DSL Reports:
> 
> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r27980400-


Actually useful, productive information, that adds to knowledge base. Kudos. Thanks.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> Reiterating incorrect or irrelevant information is of little use, unless you're being paid by the word.......


Links and proof please?


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> Links and proof please?


https://www.tivo.com/shop/detail/bridge


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> https://www.tivo.com/shop/detail/bridge


Thanks for the wonderful, detailed, insightful information! 

Exactly what is your professional background, may I ask?

P.S. - You know what, never mind. I don't want to know. I don't know why I let you bait me into these pointless discussions. What I know to be true is fact, as I'm sure you feel the same about what you think. I've actually agreed that there's some benefit to using them, but believe it's just not "standard practice" or necessarily needed.

Let's agree to disagree and move on. After all, readers and posters here going to do what they're going to do based on which side they believe and their personal evidence and experience. I gave my side, you gave yours. Now let the voters decide.........oh wait, wrong debate!


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> I don't know why I let you bait me into these pointless discussions.


No emoticon available to express the side-splitting hilarity of this comment.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> No emoticon available to express the side-splitting hilarity of this comment.


Mission accomplished! :up:


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> Plus there's THIS nugget from what seems to be a very respected member of DSL Reports:
> 
> "The diplexers are your problem. Diplexers have high return loss. MOCA is a bi-directional protocol. There is no reason to use diplexers with MOCA. Replace the diplexer with a standard 1Ghz splitter."


So on review, I really don't see how this reflects poorly on diplexers. The DSL Reports member provided no background beyond the simple assertion, and seems to be conflating return loss with insertion loss in the reverse direction(?), and that diplexers aren't bidirectional...? They seem to have brought the same misinformation regarding diplexers and bias against their use in practical problem-solving to that thread as others have elsewhere.

Feel free to explain it. I'd especially be interested in learning how the "high return loss" specs for the diplexers preclude their use with MoCA, yet splitter specs list higher return loss values. It'll also be illuminating to learn how a diplexer is really just a combo low-pass/high-pass filter but would have significantly higher insertion loss than other filters.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> So on review, I really don't see how this reflects poorly on diplexers. The DSL Reports member provided no background beyond the simple assertion, and seems to be conflating return loss with insertion loss in the reverse direction(?), and that diplexers aren't bidirectional...? They seem to have brought the same misinformation regarding diplexers and bias against their use in practical problem-solving to that thread as others have elsewhere.....


I agree he confused what he was trying to say, but he was on the right track and had correct intentions. See explanation below........



krkaufman said:


> .....Feel free to explain it. I'd especially be interested in learning how the "high return loss" specs for the diplexers preclude their use with MoCA, yet splitter specs list higher return loss values. It'll also be illuminating to learn how a diplexer is really just a combo low-pass/high-pass filter but would have significantly higher insertion loss than other filters.


Oh Boy, you walked right into that rookie mistake! 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_loss 


> Return loss is related to both standing wave ratio (SWR) and reflection coefficient (Γ). Increasing return loss corresponds to lower SWR. Return loss is a measure of how well devices or lines are matched.* A match is good if the return loss is high. A high return loss is desirable and results in a lower insertion loss.*
> 
> Return loss is used in modern practice in preference to SWR because it has better resolution for small values of reflected wave.[1]


Holland Electronics splitters clearly have a higher return loss (~20-31db) listed than their diplexers (~15-20db).......a GOOD thing due to a better load match, less SWR (standing Wave Ratio, i.e. - reflected signals back into the source!) and resulting in lower insertion loss!

Splitter Specs:
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Passives-GHS_GSV-GHS-Blk.pdf

Diplexer Specs:
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/DPD2.pdf

I'm done here, explain away your ill informed thoughts on this as much as you'd like now, but I stand with what I reported, regardless of what you may "believe" to be truth. Use those diplexers at will and enjoy your MoCA setup!


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> I agree he confused what he was trying to say, but he was on the right track and had correct intentions. See explanation below.....


Holy cow, that explains a lot. He was totally wrong, cited incorrect information, and actually provided poor advice to the OP... but "he's on the right track"... solely because he's also on a fundamentalist jihad against the practical use of diplexers in a MoCA environment. Sheesh!



HarperVision said:


> Oh Boy, you walked right into that rookie mistake!
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_loss
> 
> Holland Electronics splitters clearly have a higher return loss (~20-31db) listed than their diplexers (~15-20db).......a GOOD thing due to a better load match, less SWR (standing Wave Ratio, i.e. - reflected signals back into the source!) and* resulting in lower insertion loss!*


I didn't walk "into" anything. I'd researched that page, along with several others, to confirm that your DSL Reports expert was full of it. And I'm pretty sure I guided you to the fact that your citing "high return loss" as the reason diplexers couldn't be used in a MoCA environment was poorly "researched." Return loss being marginally higher or lower wasn't ever the point until *you* cited it as the reason diplexers couldn't be used in a MoCA environment.

What's amazing is that you think you've proven something with the above recitation of return loss trivia and re-linking to the splitter and diplexer specs I'd already linked above...



HarperVision said:


> Splitter Specs:
> http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Passives-GHS_GSV-GHS-Blk.pdf
> 
> Diplexer Specs:
> http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/DPD2.pdf


... because the specs clearly indicate these diplexers having less than half the loss of the referenced 2-way splitter.

Honestly, what did you think you were proving with all that, other than my original point?



HarperVision said:


> I'm done here,


Please, please, please, let it be so. Having to correct your continual errors passed the tedious point hours ago.



HarperVision said:


> ...explain away your ill informed thoughts on this as much as you'd like now, but I stand with what I reported,


You haven't done any "reporting." Making stuff up to suit an agenda that diplexers must never come near a MoCA environment is not reporting, it's propagandizing. But it's totally understandable that you wouldn't recognize the difference. N'est-se pas?



HarperVision said:


> regardless of what you may "believe" to be truth.


So let's see... "I can't imagine diplexers having less loss than a splitter"... "high return loss is why diplexers can't be used in a MoCA environment"... "MoCA is bidirectional so diplexers can't be used"... "3+db drop on splitters is mainly due to isolation filters" ... "30 years experience in the industry so blahblahblah"... etc. I've cited specs throughout, and accurately, but, yeah, I'm the one basing an argument on belief.

p.s. Remember...


HarperVision said:


> I'm done here


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> Holy cow, that explains a lot. He was totally wrong, cited incorrect information, and actually provided poor advice to the OP... but "he's on the right track"... solely because he's also on a fundamentalist jihad against the practical use of diplexers in a MoCA environment. Sheesh!
> 
> I didn't walk "into" anything. I'd researched that page, along with several others, to confirm that your DSL Reports expert was full of it. And I'm pretty sure I guided you to the fact that your citing "high return loss" as the reason diplexers couldn't be used in a MoCA environment was poorly "researched." Return loss being marginally higher or lower wasn't ever the point until *you* cited it as the reason diplexers couldn't be used in a MoCA environment.
> 
> What's amazing is that you think you've proven something with the above recitation of return loss trivia and re-linking to the splitter and diplexer specs I'd already linked above...
> 
> ... because the specs clearly indicate these diplexers having less than half the loss of the referenced 2-way splitter.
> 
> Honestly, what did you think you were proving with all that, other than my original point?
> 
> Please, please, please, let it be so. Having to correct your continual errors passed the tedious point hours ago.
> 
> You haven't done any "reporting." Making stuff up to suit an agenda that diplexers must never come near a MoCA environment is not reporting, it's propagandizing. But it's totally understandable that you wouldn't recognize the difference. N'est-se pas?
> 
> So let's see... "I can't imagine diplexers having less loss than a splitter"... "high return loss is why diplexers can't be used in a MoCA environment"... "MoCA is bidirectional so diplexers can't be used"... "30 years experience in the industry so blahblahblah"... etc. I've cited specs throughout, and accurately, but, yeah, I'm the one basing an argument on belief.
> 
> p.s. Remember...


Nice spin doctoring, but I know you just can't be wrong, so like I said before, you win, woohooo, you got the TCF prize today! 

Add: For your next assignment my young padawan. Please research (V)SWR, which is directly effected by Return Loss. Insertion Loss isn't the ONLY factor considered when deciding what loads to put onto a transmission line.


----------



## thyname

Would you guys stop this please? Or maybe get a room? &#128521;&#128521;&#128521;&#128521;


----------



## HarperVision

thyname said:


> Would you guys stop this please? Or maybe get a room? 😉😉😉😉


Will do, sorry! (stop it, NOT get a room!  )


----------



## krkaufman

thyname said:


> Would you guys stop this please?


Yep.


----------



## thyname

harpervision said:


> will do, sorry! (stop it, not get a room!  )


😄😄


----------



## snerd

HarperVision said:


> The 3db(or more) drop on standard splitters is mainly due to the isolation filters used to keep each leg isolated from one another.


Umm, no. There are no "isolation filters" in splitters. The 3dB insertion loss of a 2-way splitter is simply because half the RF power that is applied to the input is passed to each of the outputs. Mathematically, a factor of 2 in power is 3.01dB. Real world 2-way splitters have about 3.5dB insertion loss, because some RF is absorbed by anything that RF touches, and the extra 0.5dB of loss means that about 11% of the RF power is absorbed by the splitter.



> When you inject MoCA into the coax system, it's usually from a device like a STB (TiVo, DTV Genie, etc.) or a *MoCA adapter with a pass-through,* where no external splitter at all is being used, so to throw a diplexer in there where none is technically needed, then YOU just created a db loss yourself where none was present prior to.


The MoCA adapters that have a pass-through, such as the trusty old ECB2500C, essentially have a built-in *diplexer* so that the MoCA signals are passed with minimal loss between the coax and the adapter, while the MoCA signals are filtered out of the pass-through, and the video signals are passed with minimal loss to the TV/STB port.

The newer TiVo Bridge (a.k.a ECB6000) has no pass-through, so adding an external diplexer is roughly equivalent to using a MoCA adapter that has a pass-through. Using a splitter rather than a diplexer weakens both the MoCA signals going to the MoCA adapter, and the video signals going to "whatever", and does not remove the MoCA signals from the "pass-through" side of the equation, so an additional MoCA PoE filter would be needed to get similar functionality.


----------



## snerd

krkaufman said:


> So on review, I really don't see how this reflects poorly on diplexers. The DSL Reports member provided no background beyond the simple assertion, and seems to be conflating return loss with insertion loss in the reverse direction(?), and that diplexers aren't bidirectional...? They seem to have brought the same misinformation regarding diplexers and bias against their use in practical problem-solving to that thread as others have elsewhere.


I agree that the DSL Report citation is quite bogus.



> Feel free to explain it. I'd especially be interested in learning how the "high return loss" specs for the diplexers preclude their use with MoCA, yet splitter specs list higher return loss values.


Good catch. Let me put down my popcorn for a minute and throw out a few RF pointers for the benefit of anyone who might want to learn about some of this RF terminology. None of this is directed toward either of the celebrity combatants of this current smackdown.

Insertion loss and return loss are almost completely unrelated concepts. For simple cable connections, insertion loss is what matters most, since it describes the fraction of the ingoing RF power that comes out of the device. Lower insertion loss is almost always preferred. A typical 2-way splitter has an insertion loss of 3.5dB, which means that with 100% of the RF power entering the input port, about 45% of that power comes out of each output port. The remaining 10% is absorbed by the splitter and converted into heat.
By contrast, a satellite diplexer with 1.5dB of insertion loss will pass high frequencies (above 950MHz) between the input port and the SAT port, while passing low frequencies (below 806MHz) between the input port and the VHF/UHF port, and the 1.5dB of insertion loss means that about 70% input power comes out of one of the ports.

Return loss describes the fraction of incoming RF power that is reflected back up the cable. To an RF engineer, return loss and SWR are just different ways of describing reflected signals. Technically, return loss in dB is a negative number, but the sign is usually dropped. For most devices, high return loss is good. The specs for the DPD2 diplexer report return loss of >=12dB for the VHF/UHF port and >=15dB for the SAT port. This means the VHF/UHF port will reflect no more than 6.3% of the incoming power, while the SAT port will reflect no more than 3.2% of the incoming power. The 20dB return loss for the splitters means that no more than 1% of the incoming power will be reflected back up the cable.

Technically, return loss does have a small impact on insertion loss, since any power that is reflected back from the port is power that can't pass through the device. However, this impact is so minor that dragging return loss into the discussion is pretty silly, or even bogus.



> It'll also be illuminating to learn how a diplexer is really just a combo low-pass/high-pass filter but would have significantly higher insertion loss than other filters.


Actually, describing a diplexer as a combination of a low-pass filter between the IN/OUT and VHF/UHF port, and a high-pass filter between the IN/OUT and SAT port, seem to me to be a reasonable description.

Paradoxically, a diplexer with a 1.5dB insertion loss is less efficient than a 2-way splitter that has 3.5dB insertion loss. The diplexer absorbs and/or reflects about 30% of the incoming power, while the splitter absorbs and/or reflects about 10% of the incoming power. [Caveat -- technically this is only true of power flowing into the input port of the splitter and out of the two output ports. When power is flowing "upstream", the splitter
absorbs about 54% of the power while passing about 45% of the power to the input port, and less than 1% of the power to the other output port.]

The reduced efficiency of the diplexer is due to the filters. In general, RF filters are built with capacitors and inductors, which absorb some of the RF power that passes through. Typically the inductors can be blamed for most of the insertion loss in the filter.

Splitter have no filters, at least not by design. Adding more capacitors and/or inductors to a splitter would increase the manufacturing costs with no real benefit.

We now return to the slugfest in progress...


----------



## snerd

HarperVision said:


> N
> Add: For your next assignment my young padawan. Please research (V)SWR, which is directly effected by Return Loss. Insertion Loss isn't the ONLY factor considered when deciding what loads to put onto a transmission line.


SWR and Return Loss are completely equivalent concepts, two different ways of describing the same underlying phenomenon. Sorry, but I think dragging that DSL Reports stuff into the battle was a strategic error. Sorry again, but from the arguments I've seen you two make, in most of this particular thread, I think krkaufman is presenting the more technically accurate view.

Diplexers are useful. Splitters are useful. They are sometimes interchangeable, but not usually. Many systems need only splitters, but for some tasks the ability of diplexers to separate frequencies is an essential quality that splitters cannot provide.

You're both grounded. Go to your rooms, no dessert


----------



## krkaufman

snerd said:


> The 3dB insertion loss of a 2-way splitter is simply because half the RF power that is applied to the input is passed to each of the outputs. Mathematically, *a factor of 2 in power is 3.01dB*.


And a factor of 1/2 (0.5) is -3.01dB. (Noting that a factor of 1, being no change, is the crossover point between a loss and gain, and is 0dB.)

Formula:dB = 10 * log(P2 / P1)​... or just go w/ a web calculator or chart.

p.s. Overkill tutorial (PDF).


----------



## HarperVision

snerd said:


> ......Sorry again, but from the arguments I've seen you two make, in most of this particular thread, I think krkaufman is presenting the more technically accurate view.
> *Diplexers are useful. Splitters are useful. They are sometimes interchangeable, but not usually. Many systems need only splitters, but for some tasks the ability of diplexers to separate frequencies is an essential quality that splitters cannot provide.*.....


Wow, your replies sound just like FBI Director James Comey when he read that rap sheet of a list for the things Hillary Clinton did wrong, then didn't suggest pressing charges. 

Actually, if you go blow by blow, which I will now do, you will see what I said was based on 100% truth and fact.

The part I put in *bold* is the point I was trying to make all along, that YOU and HE agreed with in various posts!

I agreed when OTA/MoCA was involved, that diplexers are good. When Cable/MoCA is needed, nothing is best, then splitters if needed, then diplexers in certain special situations. I ONLY argued that diplexers shouldn't be used where a splitter will work fine, or nothing at all.

OK, Here we go.................


HarperVision said:


> The main reasons satellite is using diplexers is because satellite IF signals also have information in the lower cable frequency bands for SWiM, control signals, etc. so they naturally want to filter out any cable and OTA antenna channel freqs from the coax so it doesn't screw up their system. It also uses DC power over its coax and that's usually a no-no for cable.
> This is not the case when using cable or OTA tv with moca. Moca was designed to have other freqs below it (or above it in the case of the DECA version for satellite) and only transmits and uses freqs above 1150MHz, it doesn't care what's below that like satellite does.
> This does hinge on making sure the right coax is used and all the connectors, splitters and amps are terminated correctly to avoid VSWR, reflections, noise, harmonics, etc. that could cause each band to interfere with each other.
> I do see the case of using one to keep moca off of your antenna though.
> Separate frequencies do remain separate on the coax because.......well....they're separate! This phenomenon is bore out in many other ways on each and every day.


^^^TRUE FACT^^^


HarperVision said:


> Yes, that was to keep the cable/OTA signals out of the satellite coax input and the DC power from the satellite rcvr from leaking into the cable/OTA system, more so than "keeping them separate" on the coax cable itself. Cable, OTA and satellite IF (intermediate frequency, down converted from the lnb) all reside in a separate frequency spectrum on the cable, so they don't need another device inline to "separate them". Once SWiM came to be, they banned the use of diplexers because they had to use portions of that lower band for SWiM, DECA, etc. A diplexer IS a filter. A high pass on one leg and a low pass on the other.
> 
> In contrast, moca was designed to be with and compliment cable tv (and OTA by default) on the same coaxial cable. There's no extra power or control signals residing in the other's frequency ranges, so they can happily ride along the same freeway together in harmony.
> 
> I think that "moca diplexer" you linked just may be snake oil and marketing speak personally, like some amps and splitters they call "moca ready". Companies and customers all over the country use cable and moca on the same home and business coaxial cabling without issue or the need for these.


^^^TRUE FACT^^^


krkaufman said:


> Not sure I'm communicating effectively because that doesn't seem at all like what I thought I was trying to say. *And I've found antenna/satellite diplexers to be exceedingly handy in OTA/MoCA installs, but their specs make them problematic for similar use in CATV/MoCA installs.* I'm not really even sure what's being discussed/debated, at this point..........


^^^TRUE FACT^^^
(KRK even goes on to AGREE with what I said above about OTA/MoCA and that diplexers "specs make them problematic for similar use in CATV/MoCA installs"


HarperVision said:


> Haha, maybe not! Fair enough.
> But my point was......for moca you don't need a diplexer *AT ALL.*, unless you happen to have something causing noise/anomalies on one of the legs and would like to keep them "isolated" for some reason, but my thought on that would be....fix what's causing the noise!
> Well I doubt that's true. Adding filtering and diodes (DC blocking) into the signal path will certainly reduce your signal more than a basically straight through path using a standard splitter.


^^^TRUE FACT^^^ 
(I concede that the filtering and diodes (DC Blocking) of diplexers has less insertion loss than a standard splitter. I was basing on a thought from experience at the time of writing and once specs were pointed out, I agree. They DO have lower Return Loss/Higher VSWR than splitters though, which as I understand it can effect signal quality, which is what I was trying to say in my final comments about checking into VSWR and how there's more to it than just "insertion loss" factored into the equation on how well an inline device performs on the system, as seems to be pushed in your agendas. More on that later)


krkaufman said:


> *Ok, but your point wholly discounts the myriad Internet search results demonstrating the value of antenna/satellite diplexers for OTA/MoCA installs,* and any number of similar, *though not without cautions, applications of satellite diplexers for CATV/MoCA installs.* And it ignores the many such applications of diplexers found via searches on TCF alone.
> Of course, when it comes down to it, noise could be abstracted as any unwanted signal on the line, so you're covered .......


I already agreed and said MANY TIMES in prior posts that I agree that diplexers could be good for OTA/MoCA scenarios! So not sure how my _"point wholly discounts the myriad Internet search results demonstrating the value of antenna/satellite diplexers for OTA/MoCA installs."_???
and then you go on to basically agree with me AGAIN about cable/MoCA......_"*though not without cautions*, applications of satellite diplexers for CATV/MoCA installs."_


HarperVision said:


> Then why do we not see specific MoCA Diplexers being made and marketed in any real fashion? *I'm not saying there is NO benefit, since it does separate the bands and filters each from the other and I guess would keep unwanted DC power from where it doesn't belong. I'm really just saying that it isn't as "required" as some are making it out to be.* Don't worry, I'm sure some company will pick up on this and start to make and market their "MoCA Diplexers" to make a buck or three. *If it gives people peace of mind or helps in their specific situation, then great, but I would ALWAYS recommend trying it without one and seeing your results first.*
> The 3db(or more) drop on standard splitters is mainly due to the isolation filters used to keep each leg isolated from one another. When you inject MoCA into the coax system, it's usually from a device like a STB (TiVo, DTV Genie, etc.) or a MoCA adapter with a pass-through, where no external splitter at all is being used, so to throw a diplexer in there where none is technically needed, then YOU just created a db loss yourself where none was present prior to. This is also true with a standard splitter, and worse as you say, but connecting it the way that it's recommended (STB, Adapter) doesn't need this approach AT ALL, like I said.
> Of course this can be "what if'd to death", but that's not what we're talking about here. We are talking about why and what each technology was developed for, and Satellite Diplexers were designed for a specific need, reason and function, whereas MoCA Diplexers have not really been, because *in the grand scheme of things, it's NOT a necessity,* or engineers and companies would have said it is and designed and marketed accordingly.
> *and I have conceded as much already, saying it's good to have to keep the MoCA signals off of your antenna.*


^^^TRUE FACT^^^
When I was talking about "isolation filters", I guess I didn't communicate it properly, as I "assumed" that it would be understood that in order to "isolate" something from another thing, there would have to be at least TWO things to be "isolated" from each other. I was wrong not including the power splitting part, I thought that was a given, sorry. I guess I give my audience too much credit? More on isolation filters in cable coax splitters later.
As explained in other posts, if the MoCA Adapter has no pass-thru built in, then that enhances my assessment that another diplexer doesn't need to be added on the line. Only a splitter/combiner does to combine the MoCA and cable TV. (Unless there's noise, harmonics, etc. on either line and you want to isolate the bands, then use a diplexer as a poor/lazy man's way, instead of fixing the root cause of the noise/harmonics in the first place, as I pointed out originally).


HarperVision said:


> ......It was steered that way for a reason, to avoid the assumption that satellite diplexers are recommended for MoCA installs, and they are not. Look at ANY company's website that deals with MoCA and you won't see mention of using satellite diplexers (or so called "MoCA Diplexers for that matter) to get their MoCA solution to work properly.
> I've said my piece and it's clear we have differing opinions, but at least mine is on the side of the very industry being discussed, that I've been a part of for the better part of almost 30 years.
> *This is a hack is all, that I admit has some benefits though.* I bear no ill will with nothing personal involved and enjoyed the healthy debate, sir! :up:


^^^TRUE FACT^^^
No companies that make MoCA devices tout the use of satellite diplexers in their install directions or literature.....FACT! Essentially no major cable RF component manufacturers (Holland, Antronix, etc.), make and distribute "MoCA Cable TV Diplexers", because there isn't a great need for them as I said, which is the point I was trying to make......FACT! 


krkaufman said:


> So on review, I really don't see how this reflects poorly on diplexers. The DSL Reports member provided no background beyond the simple assertion, and seems to be conflating return loss with insertion loss in the reverse direction(?), and that diplexers aren't bidirectional...? They seem to have brought the same misinformation regarding diplexers and bias against their use in practical problem-solving to that thread as others have elsewhere.
> Feel free to explain it. I'd especially be interested in learning how the "high return loss" specs for the diplexers preclude their use with MoCA, yet splitter specs list higher return loss values. It'll also be illuminating to learn how a diplexer is really just a combo low-pass/high-pass filter but would have significantly higher insertion loss than other filters.





HarperVision said:


> I agree he confused what he was trying to say, but he was on the right track and had correct intentions. See explanation below........
> Oh Boy, you walked right into that rookie mistake!
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_loss
> Holland Electronics splitters clearly have a higher return loss (~20-31db) listed than their diplexers (~15-20db).......a GOOD thing due to a better load match, less SWR (standing Wave Ratio, i.e. - reflected signals back into the source!) and resulting in lower insertion loss!
> Splitter Specs:
> http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Passives-GHS_GSV-GHS-Blk.pdf
> Diplexer Specs:
> http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/DPD2.pdf
> .................


^^^TRUE FACT^^^
I also conceded the DSL Reports guy said it wrong, but the reason I said "he was on the right track" was because, in that instance, to tell the OP of that post he was responding to that a diplexer was the wrong device to use in that scenario because of "Return Loss", which as we all agree is equated to signal reflection back to the source, which to me is never a good thing. He told him to take out the diplexer and try a splitter, which he did and which improved his MoCA signal, so I said......."he was on the right track".


krkaufman said:


> ......You haven't done any "reporting." *Making stuff up to suit an agenda that diplexers must never come near a MoCA environment* is not reporting, it's propagandizing. But it's totally understandable that you wouldn't recognize the difference. N'est-se pas?.......


I have never once said what I bolded in your quote above, as proven and referenced in all the posts I have copied here In this reply!


HarperVision said:


> Nice spin doctoring, ............
> Add: For your next assignment my young padawan. Please research (V)SWR, which is directly effected by Return Loss. Insertion Loss isn't the ONLY factor considered when deciding what loads to put onto a transmission line.


^^^TRUE FACT^^^


snerd said:


> Umm, no. *There are no "isolation filters" in splitters.* The 3dB insertion loss of a 2-way splitter is simply because half the RF power that is applied to the input is passed to each of the outputs. Mathematically, a factor of 2 in power is 3.01dB. Real world 2-way splitters have about 3.5dB insertion loss, because some RF is absorbed by anything that RF touches, and the extra 0.5dB of loss means that about 11% of the RF power is absorbed by the splitter.
> The MoCA adapters that have a pass-through, such as the trusty old ECB2500C, essentially have a built-in *diplexer* so that the MoCA signals are passed with minimal loss between the coax and the adapter, while the MoCA signals are filtered out of the pass-through, and the video signals are passed with minimal loss to the TV/STB port.
> The newer TiVo Bridge (a.k.a ECB6000) has no pass-through, so adding an external diplexer is roughly equivalent to using a MoCA adapter that has a pass-through. Using a splitter rather than a diplexer weakens both the MoCA signals going to the MoCA adapter, and the video signals going to "whatever", and does not remove the MoCA signals from the "pass-through" side of the equation, so an additional MoCA PoE filter would be needed to get similar functionality.


Then what is the "Capacitor Decoupling on All Ports" referenced on Holland's website and specs? I seem to recall that capacitors are used as filters, no? Sounds like a filter to isolate the ports, i.e. - "Isolation Filter", to ME anyway. (I'm not trying to be a jerk or question your knowledge, it's just been awhile since I've been in TV/Radio Broadcasting, gone through the schooling and used it on a daily basis like I used to.)


snerd said:


> .........
> Return loss describes the fraction of incoming RF power that is reflected back up the cable. To an RF engineer, return loss and SWR are just different ways of describing reflected signals. Technically, return loss in dB is a negative number, but the sign is usually dropped. For most devices, high return loss is good. The specs for the DPD2 diplexer report return loss of >=12dB for the VHF/UHF port and >=15dB for the SAT port. This means the VHF/UHF port will reflect no more than 6.3% of the incoming power, while the SAT port will reflect no more than 3.2% of the incoming power. The 20dB return loss for the splitters means that no more than 1% of the incoming power will be reflected back up the cable.
> Technically, return loss does have a small impact on insertion loss, since any power that is reflected back from the port is power that can't pass through the device. However, this impact is so minor that dragging return loss into the discussion is pretty silly, or even bogus......


This is where I am not sure I agree with you 100% snerd. We used to tune high power TV and radio transmitters to their respective antennas and dummy loads. VSWR was one of, if not the most important thing to getting the RF to transmit as efficient as possible by impedence matching the load to the source. In my thinking, I personally believe that a splitter with good 75 ohm impedence matching (to the MoCA device in this instance), even with more power/insertion loss to the signal, is better than a diplexer that has worse return loss/vswr and reflects some of the signals back to the source device, aka the MoCA adapter/STB/Etc. I was always taught to avoid any kind of spurious noise, signals, harmonics, you name it on your line and give the source signal the best environment possible. Maybe it's not as important with low level RF in cable TV scenarios and I am putting too much weight on it, but that's where I was coming from anyway. I guess I will need to do some testing of how much VSWR/Return Loss affects MoCA as compared to a standard splitter with higher insertion loss, but better performance on reflected RF. I was ALWAYS taught that reflected power back into a transmitter of ANY KIND was bad.


snerd said:


> .......Paradoxically, a diplexer with a 1.5dB insertion loss is less efficient than a 2-way splitter that has 3.5dB insertion loss. The diplexer absorbs and/or reflects about 30% of the incoming power, while the splitter absorbs and/or reflects about 10% of the incoming power. [Caveat -- technically this is only true of power flowing into the input port of the splitter and out of the two output ports. When power is flowing "upstream", the splitter
> absorbs about 54% of the power while passing about 45% of the power to the input port, and less than 1% of the power to the other output port.]
> The reduced efficiency of the diplexer is due to the filters. In general, RF filters are built with capacitors and inductors, which absorb some of the RF power that passes through. Typically the inductors can be blamed for most of the insertion loss in the filter.
> Splitter have no filters, at least not by design. Adding more capacitors and/or inductors to a splitter would increase the manufacturing costs with no real benefit....


I'm pretty sure this is what I was trying to say all along! I guess I am horrible at how I explain things? And once again, if splitters don't have filters, then what is the "Capacitor Decoupling on All Ports"?


snerd said:


> SWR and Return Loss are completely equivalent concepts, two different ways of describing the same underlying phenomenon......


I know and agreed.


snerd said:


> ....... Sorry, but I think dragging that DSL Reports stuff into the battle was a strategic error. ......


I know and agreed. Don't beat me daddy!


snerd said:


> .....Sorry again, but from the arguments I've seen you two make, in most of this particular thread, I think krkaufman is presenting the more technically accurate view.......


Cannot agree. As I referenced in my posts above, I stated true facts, but KRK was trying to make it something it wasn't and spin doctor it to what he "thought" I was making a point of. In fact, he agreed with and pointed out many of things I was trying to say and also put some words in there that you can see I never wrote or portrayed.



snerd said:


> ....Diplexers are useful. Splitters are useful. They are sometimes interchangeable, but not usually. Many systems need only splitters, but for some tasks the ability of diplexers to separate frequencies is an essential quality that splitters cannot provide.......


Once again......isn't that what I was saying? Just read the comments and posts I quoted from myself above, which as of this post I stand by 100%.

If you guys want to pursue this _peacefully and respectably_ further, maybe we can make a new thread and the mods can cut and paste these posts into it. Maybe some may find this back and forth diatribe useful?


----------



## snerd

I'm going to be a bit selective about which points that I'll respond to here. This isn't my fight, and to respond to every picky detail would consume time that I'd rather spend actually using my TiVo and/or MoCA network. I also don't see any point to rehashing virtually the entire thread.



HarperVision said:


> Actually, if you go blow by blow, which I will now do, you will see what I said was based on 100% truth and fact.


Well, since you cited complete nonsense from DSL Reports, clearly there was some amount of BS mixed in with your truth and fact. I'm not claiming that everything you said was wrong, but 100% accuracy? Really? If you truly believe that, then you're just kidding yourself.



> I agreed when OTA/MoCA was involved, that diplexers are good. When Cable/MoCA is needed, nothing is best, then splitters if needed, then diplexers in certain special situations.


At the point where you jumped into this thread, we were specifically discussing an OTA/MoCA/cable mix, where it is *critical* to keep the 5-1002MHz band on the cable completely separate from the 5-1002MHz band from OTA. While MoCA is the reason all three pieces are brought together, in this particular case, the use of a diplexer isn't merely an amusing option, but is absolutely *required* because the MoCA adapter and modem are located in one room while the cable and OTA feeds are in a separate room, so the system requires MoCA+internet on some coax and MoCA+OTA on other coax. That configuration is impossible to obtain without a diplexer. So, you jumping in and thumping on your "avoid evil diplexers" drum was contextually inappropriate.



> I ONLY argued that diplexers *shouldn't* be used where a splitter will work fine, or nothing at all.


Nobody has suggested adding a diplexer in place of "nothing at all," so that part is covered. As for possibly using a diplexer instead of a splitter for some given task, a blanket recommendation for splitters would be fine if splitters were universally superior to diplexers in every conceivable way. That simply isn't the case, since diplexers have lower insertion loss and are useful to separate frequency bands.

My approach is to present engineering facts about how coax/splitters/diplexers work and the tradeoffs involved in their use. In cases where all frequency bands must be distributed to multiple targets, using splitters is clearly the way to go. In cases where different frequency bands can (or must) be treated differently, diplexers may offer a simpler or superior solution than some mix of splitters and MoCA filters. In such cases, there are usually engineering tradeoffs to consider, and some parameters will favor the diplexer solutions while other parameters favor the splitter solution.



> The main reasons satellite is using diplexers is because satellite IF signals also have information in the lower cable frequency bands for SWiM, control signals, etc. so they naturally want to filter out any cable and OTA antenna channel freqs from the coax so it doesn't screw up their system. It also uses DC power over its coax and that's usually a no-no for cable.


Maybe. I think the main reason that satellite systems use diplexers is because they wouldn't be able to market their dishes effectively if they had to tell their customers that they could no longer receive OTA TV. The diplexer provides a mechanism to allow both on the same TV. If there were no need to mix OTA and satellite, those systems wouldn't need diplexers.



> (I concede that the filtering and diodes (DC Blocking) of diplexers has less insertion loss than a standard splitter.


Thank you for the concession. Lower insertion loss means more signal, which is clearly beneficial. Of course, there are always other tradeoffs that should be taken into account when choosing which device to use for a given application.

DC blocking is obtained from capacitors, not diodes. Very old splitters used diodes for some reason, but I don't believe diodes are used in more recent versions of either splitters or diplexers.



> I was basing on a thought from experience at the time of writing and once specs were pointed out, I agree. They DO have lower Return Loss/Higher VSWR than splitters though, which as I understand it can effect signal quality, which is what I was trying to say in my final comments about checking into VSWR and how there's more to it than just "insertion loss" factored into the equation on how well an inline device performs on the system, as seems to be pushed in your agendas. More on that later)


Our agendas? Really? What is *your agenda?* My interest is primarily to inject some engineering reality into threads that are often full of speculation and blatant disinformation, such as the nonsense from DSL Reports. I try to provide accurate information, both good and bad, so that those reading the thread can make informed decisions about alternatives that may squeeze a little extra performance from their systems. Spin that as an "agenda" if it makes you feel better.



> Then why do we not see specific MoCA Diplexers being made and marketed in any real fashion?


Good question. We can only speculate, but I think the answer comes down to "because cable companies prefer to force their customers to give up OTA." IMO, satellite diplexers came about because satellite providers perceived a need to maintain compatibility with OTA TV. In order for a true MoCA diplexer (such as the one krkaufman cited) to be profitable, cable providers would have to change their attitude about forcing OTA out of existence. Perhaps the recent trend toward cutting the cable will provide such an incentive.

Part of the reason that there aren't MoCA diplexers widely available may be the fact that historically, MoCA adapters often/usually included a diplexer-based feed-thru built into the adapter. This is a convenient feature when connecting the MoCA adapter to a cable modem that is incompatible with MoCA signals, or for keeping the MoCA signals away from a TV or STB. Those are the most common cases where a diplexer is useful, so building them into the MoCA adapter makes sense, and covers many of the cases where an external diplexer would be useful.

The specs for the TaiKan MoCA diplexer are almost ideal for those who need to combine OTA and MoCA with cable internet access, or perform other tasks that either split or join frequency bands. It needs to be extended slightly to cover MoCA 2.0 specs, as krkaufman pointed out, but otherwise it would be ideal, and provide a clean solution to problems for which a satellite diplexer has some risks involved. The specs also make it clear that this device isn't merely a satellite diplexer with the word "MoCA" plastered on it for marketing purposes, as you suggest.

Comcast now has more internet customers than TV customers. Perhaps they'll realize that a good MoCA diplexer can help them interface better with OTA users, to get back some of the business they have lost to cable cutters. Perhaps not, only time will tell.



> As explained in other posts, if the MoCA Adapter has no pass-thru built in, then that enhances my assessment that another diplexer doesn't need to be added on the line.


Nonsense. Building a MoCA adapter without a pass-thru has absolutely no bearing on what may or may not be required outside the MoCA adapter.



> Only a splitter/combiner does to combine the MoCA and cable TV.


Then why is the pass-thru on the ECB2500C based on diplexers rather than splitters?

Adding MoCA adapters to an existing cable system always carries some risk that the MoCA signals will interfere with existing equipment. Many cable modems and tuning adapters are known to have issues when MoCA signals are added to the coax. There are likely set-top boxes and many TVs that also don't play well with MoCA. Whenever a MoCA adapter is added on a line that feeds existing equipment, a built-in diplexer based feed-thru is a useful feature. If the MoCA adapter has no feed-thru, then just tossing in a splitter has a fairly good chance of causing problems for the existing equipment.



> Originally Posted by snerd
> 
> 
> 
> Umm, no. *There are no "isolation filters" in splitters.*
> 
> 
> 
> Then what is the "Capacitor Decoupling on All Ports" referenced on Holland's website and specs?
Click to expand...

Those capacitors merely block DC from passing through the splitter.



> Originally Posted by snerd
> 
> 
> 
> .........
> Return loss describes the fraction of incoming RF power that is reflected back up the cable. To an RF engineer, return loss and SWR are just different ways of describing reflected signals. Technically, return loss in dB is a negative number, but the sign is usually dropped. For most devices, high return loss is good. The specs for the DPD2 diplexer report return loss of >=12dB for the VHF/UHF port and >=15dB for the SAT port. This means the VHF/UHF port will reflect no more than 6.3% of the incoming power, while the SAT port will reflect no more than 3.2% of the incoming power. The 20dB return loss for the splitters means that no more than 1% of the incoming power will be reflected back up the cable.
> Technically, return loss does have a small impact on insertion loss, since any power that is reflected back from the port is power that can't pass through the device. However, this impact is so minor that dragging return loss into the discussion is pretty silly, or even bogus......
> 
> 
> 
> This is where I am not sure I agree with you 100% snerd. We used to tune high power TV and radio transmitters to their respective antennas and dummy loads. VSWR was one of, if not the most important thing to getting the RF to transmit as efficient as possible by impedence matching the load to the source. In my thinking, I personally believe that a splitter with good 75 ohm impedence matching (to the MoCA device in this instance), even with more power/insertion loss to the signal, is better than a diplexer that has worse return loss/vswr and reflects some of the signals back to the source device, aka the MoCA adapter/STB/Etc. I was always taught to avoid any kind of spurious noise, signals, harmonics, you name it on your line and give the source signal the best environment possible. Maybe it's not as important with low level RF in cable TV scenarios and I am putting too much weight on it, but that's where I was coming from anyway. I guess I will need to do some testing of how much VSWR/Return Loss affects MoCA as compared to a standard splitter with higher insertion loss, but better performance on reflected RF. I was ALWAYS taught that reflected power back into a transmitter of ANY KIND was bad.
Click to expand...

I agree that if you're driving high power RF into an antenna, then return loss is pretty important. No system is perfect, so there will always be some reflected power. Ideally it would always be nice to have super high return loss numbers and super low insertion loss numbers. Unfortunately, real world splitters, diplexers, coax, MoCA filters, etc are often far from ideal, but they work well enough to get the job done.

Using a splitter doesn't guarantee higher overall return loss. As an example, suppose you are adding a MoCA adapter to your cable modem, and the cable modem doesn't play well with MoCA signals, and you bought a TiVo Bridge that has no feed-thru. The two obvious alternatives are to use a diplexer, or use a splitter with a MoCA filter attached to the modem.

I think it is safe to say that you'd pick the splitter and MoCA filter. However, if you are truly concerned about return loss numbers for the MoCA signals, that choice might be a mistake. It isn't enough to look at just the return loss of the splitter, because the MoCA filter is designed to reflect the MoCA signals, which means the MoCA filter has a really low return loss, and that ends up determining just how much RF power is reflected by the combination of splitter+MoCA_filter. The MoCA signals have 3.5dB loss passing down through the splitter, and are then reflected by the MoCA filter. This reflection isn't 100% efficient, so I'll assume 2dB loss for the MoCA filter itself. Then, the splitter gives another 3.5dB loss for the reflected MoCA signals as they pass back up through the splitter. So overall, the return loss at MoCA frequencies is only 9dB, which means that 12.5% of the RF power at MoCA frequencies ends up being reflected back up the coax. This corresponds to an SWR of 2.09, which might be completely unacceptable for a high power RF amplifier driving a broadcast antenna.

The return loss for the SAT port of the DPD2 diplexer is 15dB, meaning that 3.13% of the RF power is reflected by a diplexer. This corresponds to an SWR of 1.43, which is a substantial improvement.

So, when just looking at return loss, there is still a tradeoff. The diplexer will be much better at MoCA frequencies while the splitter+PoE will be better at catv/DOCSIS frequencies. Looking at other parameters, the diplexer is a clear winner in terms of insertion loss. It seems that the only place where the splitter+PoE wins is for the higher return loss at catv/DOCSIS frequencies. Since the cable modem uses completely different frequency bands of downstream and upstream data, the difference in return loss is unlikely to impact modem performance significantly, while the difference from insertion loss has a pretty good chance of impacting data rates in both directions. In my opinion, the diplexer solution is clearly better.


----------



## HarperVision

snerd said:


> I'm going to be a bit selective about which points that I'll respond to here. This isn't my fight, and to respond to every picky detail would consume time that I'd rather spend actually using my TiVo and/or MoCA network. I also don't see any point to rehashing virtually the entire thread.
> 
> Well, since you cited complete nonsense from DSL Reports, clearly there was some amount of BS mixed in with your truth and fact. I'm not claiming that everything you said was wrong, but 100% accuracy? Really? If you truly believe that, then you're just kidding yourself.


I said his *INTENT* (to take the diplexer out and use a splitter which the OP did and it made a difference) was true, which it was. He just didn't know the facts and/or said it improperly and misrepresented what he was trying to imply (the difference in Return Loss/VSWR).



> At the point where you jumped into this thread, we were specifically discussing an OTA/MoCA/cable mix, where it is *critical* to keep the 5-1002MHz band on the cable completely separate from the 5-1002MHz band from OTA. While MoCA is the reason all three pieces are brought together, in this particular case, the use of a diplexer isn't merely an amusing option, but is absolutely *required* because the MoCA adapter and modem are located in one room while the cable and OTA feeds are in a separate room, so the system requires MoCA+internet on some coax and MoCA+OTA on other coax. That configuration is impossible to obtain without a diplexer. So, you jumping in and thumping on your *"avoid evil diplexers"* drum was contextually inappropriate.


I agree with this, but I think I went where I did based on the replies, even though I stated multiple times that I agreed diplexers were a good option when antennas were involved, as you can see clearly by my summation. So once again,* I NEVER SAID "AVOID EVIL DIPLEXERS" SO STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY PROVERBIAL MOUTH FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!* ! and I quote once again for those who can't seem to comprehend:



> *Originally Posted by HarperVision* View Post
> The main reasons satellite is using diplexers is because satellite IF signals also have information in the lower cable frequency bands for SWiM, control signals, etc. so they naturally want to filter out any cable and OTA antenna channel freqs from the coax so it doesn't screw up their system. It also uses DC power over its coax and that's usually a no-no for cable.
> This is not the case when using cable or OTA tv with moca. Moca was designed to have other freqs below it (or above it in the case of the DECA version for satellite) and only transmits and uses freqs above 1150MHz, it doesn't care what's below that like satellite does.
> 
> This does hinge on making sure the right coax is used and all the connectors, splitters and amps are terminated correctly to avoid VSWR, reflections, noise, harmonics, etc. that could cause each band to interfere with each other.
> *I do see the case of using one to keep moca off of your antenna though.*
> Separate frequencies do remain separate on the coax because .......well ....they're separate! This phenomenon is bore out in many other ways on each and every day.


Can I be any clearer? Please let me know.



> Nobody has suggested adding a diplexer in place of "nothing at all," so that part is covered. As for possibly using a diplexer instead of a splitter for some given task, a blanket recommendation for splitters would be fine if splitters were universally superior to diplexers in every conceivable way. That simply isn't the case, since diplexers have lower insertion loss and are useful to separate frequency bands.
> 
> I said that for those that may be reading and thinking they'll just use one instead of a proper splitter.


As I have also said repeatedly, insertion loss is not the only thing to consider and separate signals will remain separate on the coax, as long as each source and destination (a TV and DirecTV rcvr for example) can reject what it doesn't need themselves and also as long as there aren't any anomalies with your cable, connectors, etc. that would induce any spurious noise, harmonics, SWR, etc. that would interfere with one or both of your frequency bands. (Again, See final comments and image, below)

In this case, we had cable and OTA in the SAME BAND, so that meets the previous criteria I just named, which I have already agreed to the fact that a diplexer is a good option.



> My approach is to present engineering facts about how coax/splitters/diplexers work and the tradeoffs involved in their use. In cases where all frequency bands must be distributed to multiple targets, using splitters is clearly the way to go. In cases where different frequency bands can (or must) be treated differently, diplexers may offer a simpler or superior solution than some mix of splitters and MoCA filters. In such cases, there are usually engineering tradeoffs to consider, and some parameters will favor the diplexer solutions while other parameters favor the splitter solution.


I agree and I think you have to also agree that most if not all RF devices have band pass filters on their inputs to reject frequency ranges they aren't designed to use, no? If this is the case, then it wouldn't matter if "all frequency bands" are delivered, since the end device would just filter out what it needs and also filter out what it doesn't. This wasn't the case with DirecTV (antenna/cable TV and control signals in same freq. band), nor your antenna and cable tv scenario (to separate the antenna from the cable feeds), thus a diplexer is warranted, as we ALL have agreed.

This was my point all along!



> Maybe. I think the main reason that satellite systems use diplexers is because they wouldn't be able to market their dishes effectively if they had to tell their customers that they could no longer receive OTA TV. The diplexer provides a mechanism to allow both on the same TV. If there were no need to mix OTA and satellite, those systems wouldn't need diplexers.


They had to do this because in the early days they didn't offer local broadcast networks over the satellite, only the big east and west coast feeds from NYC and LA. They weren't able to just allow the antenna/cable signal to ride on the same coax because they already had their AC power and control signal in those frequency ranges......hence, the satellite diplexer was used to separate them and keep the AC out of your cable/ota TV equipment and the cable/ota signals out of the sat rcvr's signal path to avoid conflict with its data control signals. If these parameters weren't there, then you could just use a standard splitter and the signals would ride along in happy harmony on the coax (see final comments, below). Once SWiM came along, you couldn't use them at all as you're aware.



> Thank you for the concession. Lower insertion loss means more signal, which is clearly beneficial. Of course, there are always other tradeoffs that should be taken into account when choosing which device to use for a given application.


Agreed



> DC blocking is obtained from capacitors, not diodes. Very old splitters used diodes for some reason, but I don't believe diodes are used in more recent versions of either splitters or diplexers.


Yeah, apparently diodes can also be used if they're installed backwards, but then that makes it directional.



> Our agendas? Really? What is *your agenda?* My interest is primarily to inject some engineering reality into threads that are often full of speculation and blatant disinformation, such as the nonsense from DSL Reports. I try to provide accurate information, both good and bad, so that those reading the thread can make informed decisions about alternatives that may squeeze a little extra performance from their systems. Spin that as an "agenda" if it makes you feel better.


My _agenda_ was to point out that you don't *HAVE TO* use a diplexer just to merge differing frequency bands together on the same coax, like ota/cable tv with MoCA (This is NOT the case with ota/cable and DirecTV, so diplexers ARE needed). A good ole splitter will do since that is what THAT particular system was designed to operate like.(again, see final comments, below)

Then I agreed that, if you do indeed need to use ota and cable together, that a diplexer for the antenna was a good idea. Not sure how many times I have to rehash and repeat that fact, but OK, I will again if I must. 



> Good question. We can only speculate, but I think the answer comes down to "because cable companies prefer to force their customers to give up OTA." IMO, satellite diplexers came about because satellite providers perceived a need to maintain compatibility with OTA TV. In order for a true MoCA diplexer (such as the one krkaufman cited) to be profitable, cable providers would have to change their attitude about forcing OTA out of existence. Perhaps the recent trend toward cutting the cable will provide such an incentive.


Cable TV came about to _replace_ and enhance ota antenna TV by adding more channels and for those areas that couldn't receive it. As they see it, there's no reason to have OTA TV if you already pay for cable. Sure we all agree now that OTA usually has better PQ due to less compression, original resolutions (see the current Comcast down converting 1080i to 720p fiasco), and some areas that have OTA channels not on their local cable systems. But I doubt that the cable co will admit that their version of the local ABC station is compressed more and looks worse than the OTA counterpart does, so why would they encourage the use of diplexers to merge OTA with their cable signals? Like I said, it's a "hack" that wonderful experts like krkaufman, fcfc2 and yourself use when needed, and I have agreed is beneficial in those instances.....many times!



> Part of the reason that there aren't MoCA diplexers widely available may be the fact that historically, MoCA adapters often/usually included a diplexer-based feed-thru built into the adapter. This is a convenient feature when connecting the MoCA adapter to a cable modem that is incompatible with MoCA signals, or for keeping the MoCA signals away from a TV or STB. Those are the most common cases where a diplexer is useful, so building them into the MoCA adapter makes sense, and covers many of the cases where an external diplexer would be useful.


As mentioned earlier, TVs/STBs would have bandpass filters that would reject the moca signals anyway. The explanation about the modem is the most logical reason since MoCA is known to mess them up and many modems didn't have MoCA filters, although I believe most do now. This is most likely why the newer MoCA adapters don't have that built in, along with cost savings of course.



> The specs for the TaiKan MoCA diplexer are almost ideal for those who need to combine OTA and MoCA with cable internet access, or perform other tasks that either split or join frequency bands. It needs to be extended slightly to cover MoCA 2.0 specs, as krkaufman pointed out, but otherwise it would be ideal, and provide a clean solution to problems for which a satellite diplexer has some risks involved. The specs also make it clear that this device isn't merely a satellite diplexer with the word "MoCA" plastered on it for marketing purposes, as you suggest.


In this case, I agree and have said as much.

Re: a MoCA Diplexer not being just a satellite one, I was speaking more of other products that put that term on them if they happen to notice that their 5-2150 MHz splitters for example, are capable of passing cable/ota and MoCA and use that term as a hot button for marketing purposes, even though nothing in its specs changed to magically make it "MoCA Compatible".



> Comcast now has more internet customers than TV customers. Perhaps they'll realize that a good MoCA diplexer can help them interface better with OTA users, to get back some of the business they have lost to cable cutters. Perhaps not, only time will tell.


Perhaps, but as in my case and others I've read, maybe it's easier to just have the MSO run the cable feed directly to your modem and then have your antenna feed go directly to the STB/TV, where you could then just merge the output of your MoCA D Band adapter (1150-1650MHz) with the output of your antenna (54-890MHz) on a standard splitter since there are no competing frequencies like cable and ota. I agree if they're in a room far away from the homerun or PoE in your house that you may need to merge them together and do some creative diplexing though, as you experts in this field have pointed out and i've agreed to, once again on numerous occasions.



> Nonsense. Building a MoCA adapter without a pass-thru has absolutely no bearing on what may or may not be required outside the MoCA adapter.


It's not nonsense, because now YOU can choose what to put there and if a diplexer isn't warranted in YOUR particular scenario, then you can choose to use nothing or just a MoCA capable splitter. See my previous explanation about modems though, where I agree a diplexer would be good if your modem doesn't have a MoCA filter built in, although you could use a splitter with a MoCA filter on the modem leg too.



> Then why is the pass-thru on the ECB2500C based on diplexers rather than splitters?


Mentioned previously, but mainly to avoid MoCA being on the output of the adapter and also not having to use MoCA filters on whatever's connected to it.



> Adding MoCA adapters to an existing cable system always carries some risk that the MoCA signals will interfere with existing equipment. Many cable modems and tuning adapters are known to have issues when MoCA signals are added to the coax. There are likely set-top boxes and many TVs that also don't play well with MoCA. Whenever a MoCA adapter is added on a line that feeds existing equipment, a built-in diplexer based feed-thru is a useful feature. If the MoCA adapter has no feed-thru, then just tossing in a splitter has a fairly good chance of causing problems for the existing equipment.


I agree with that, but you can also use MoCA filters.



> Those capacitors merely block DC from passing through the splitter.


OK I get that, but then how are they isolating the legs from each other in these splitters? Also, if that's the case, then why are DC Blockers needed with most if not all of these splitters when they're used in situations where DC current may be on the line, like powered amps, preamps, satellite LNBs, and why does DirecTV and DISH specifically say to use their splitters that have DC power pass on only certain legs, but yet have to keep the legs isolated from one another too? Don't you use capacitors for isolation and noise rejection as well? I believe that's what Holland is saying in their spec sheets for these, not for DC rejection. I could certainly be wrong, but just curious here.



> I agree that if you're driving high power RF into an antenna, then return loss is pretty important. No system is perfect, so there will always be some reflected power. Ideally it would always be nice to have super high return loss numbers and super low insertion loss numbers. Unfortunately, real world splitters, diplexers, coax, MoCA filters, etc are often far from ideal, but they work well enough to get the job done.
> 
> Using a splitter doesn't guarantee higher overall return loss. As an example, suppose you are adding a MoCA adapter to your cable modem, and the cable modem doesn't play well with MoCA signals, and you bought a TiVo Bridge that has no feed-thru. The two obvious alternatives are to use a diplexer, or use a splitter with a MoCA filter attached to the modem.


I agree with that. 



> I think it is safe to say that you'd pick the splitter and MoCA filter. However, if you are truly concerned about return loss numbers for the MoCA signals, that choice might be a mistake. It isn't enough to look at just the return loss of the splitter, because the MoCA filter is designed to reflect the MoCA signals, which means the MoCA filter has a really low return loss, and that ends up determining just how much RF power is reflected by the combination of splitter+MoCA_filter. The MoCA signals have 3.5dB loss passing down through the splitter, and are then reflected by the MoCA filter. This reflection isn't 100% efficient, so I'll assume 2dB loss for the MoCA filter itself. ......


I was always wondering about that, as most RF systems DO NOT want reflected signal back into their devices. In the case of MoCA, everyone is saying that the filter "reflects the signal back to increase the signal strength", but doesn't that then cause things like timing errors, heterodyning, etc. that can overload the MoCA IP's error correction circuits? I always meant to start a thread on that topic, but never got around to it. Can someone point me to some specs that corroborate that feature of MoCA filters? I only found a reference to the word "reflects" in a Cisco document in my limited time available. 



> ......Then, the splitter gives another 3.5dB loss for the reflected MoCA signals as they pass back up through the splitter. So overall, the return loss at MoCA frequencies is only 9dB, which means that 12.5% of the RF power at MoCA frequencies ends up being reflected back up the coax. This corresponds to an SWR of 2.09, which might be completely unacceptable for a high power RF amplifier driving a broadcast antenna.
> 
> The return loss for the SAT port of the DPD2 diplexer is 15dB, meaning that 3.13% of the RF power is reflected by a diplexer. This corresponds to an SWR of 1.43, which is a substantial improvement.
> 
> So, when just looking at return loss, there is still a tradeoff. The diplexer will be much better at MoCA frequencies while the splitter+PoE will be better at catv/DOCSIS frequencies. Looking at other parameters, the diplexer is a clear winner in terms of insertion loss. It seems that the only place where the splitter+PoE wins is for the higher return loss at catv/DOCSIS frequencies. Since the cable modem uses completely different frequency bands of downstream and upstream data, the difference in return loss is unlikely to impact modem performance significantly, while the difference from insertion loss has a pretty good chance of impacting data rates in both directions. In my opinion, the diplexer solution is clearly better.


Thanks for the great theorizing and number crunching, that really helps! :up: I can agree with that when diplexers are used in the instances we both agreed are good uses, like antenna and cable merging or isolating a modem.

In closing, since I think we have all said what needs to be said now, I just wanted to share something in a Cisco MoCA document that I found that spells out the point that I have been basically trying to make all along:

http://moca4installers.com/pdf/FINAL_MoCA_CI-SI_White_Paper.pdf 


> The technology standard creates a separate channel for IP data *within the homes or buildings existing coax wire plant by operating at frequencies that lie above the 50-806 MHz band typically used for off-air and CATV/IPTV programming.* A MoCA 1.0 or MoCA 1.1 channel occupies 50 MHz and uses adaptive constellation multi-tone (ACMT) modulation (similar to the techniques used by ADSL, DOCSIS, and other broadband technologies) to achieve usable data rates in excess of 150 Mbps.
> 
> [Figure 2 here - MoCA Spectrum Allocation Diagram, attached]
> 
> A 50 MHz MoCA 1.0 or MoCA 1.1 channel can be located in any one of the
> designated frequency bands in the 8501650 MHz spectrum, *allowing it to peacefully co-exist with frequencies occupied by standard CATV* and DBS satellite services as well as the expanded IPTV services which occupy up to 860MHz.
> (See Figure 2, attached)


I guess if we're each not understood after all this, then let's agree to disagree.


----------



## mdavej

Moving along... I have a question. Is there any harm in not putting a POE at the TA input? None of Tivo's own connection diagrams ever show a POE at the TA. I'm about to rework my Moca network and want to avoid buying another POE if I can. I already have one at my actual point of entry.


----------



## krkaufman

mdavej said:


> Moving along... I have a question. Is there any harm in not putting a POE at the TA input? None of Tivo's own connection diagrams ever show a POE at the TA. I'm about to rework my Moca network and want to avoid buying another POE if I can. I already have one at my actual point of entry.


Good question, regarding "harm." I've seen many reports of MoCA interfering with a tuning adapter's performance & stability; however, I can't say that I've seen any definitive statements that MoCA signals permanently damaged a tuning adapter, such that the tuning adapter failed to return to a stable operating state *after* a MoCA filter was placed on the tuning adapter's input.


----------



## mdavej

Sounds like I can just try it and see. If, worst case, there is permanent damage, I can just get another TA and add a filter next time.


----------



## convergent

mdavej said:


> Sounds like I can just try it and see. If, worst case, there is permanent damage, I can just get another TA and add a filter next time.


The problem is that many Tivo issues I've run into can be very hard to diagnose and figure out; so why not go with best practice? The folks here are saying you need it there, and people aren't having problems if they follow the advice, so I've got a POE filter there!


----------



## mdavej

convergent said:


> The problem is that many Tivo issues I've run into can be very hard to diagnose and figure out; so why not go with best practice? The folks here are saying you need it there, and people aren't having problems if they follow the advice, so I've got a POE filter there!


Because I'm extremely cheap. My system works fine at the moment. When I put a Moca signal on the TA, I'll know right away if it caused a problem. I just wanted to know if there was a 100% chance Moca would interfere with my TA or not.


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## krkaufman

mdavej said:


> Sounds like I can just try it and see. If, worst case, there is permanent damage, I can just get another TA and add a filter next time.


That's one option. And it is in-line with the following advice included in the TiVo Custom Installers Tips & Tricks document:

SDV Tuning Adapter malfunctions: Not all cable systems use tuning adapters, but some will. If your SDV tuning adapter isnt working when activating MoCA, try installing a second POE filter (in addition to the one mentioned above) on the coax line going to the tuning adapter.​
FYI... Here's a recent post I made offering advice on the subject to another TCFer, including links to one report of tuning adapter issues owing to MoCA and the "official" Cox tuning adapter installation doc, demonstrating the MoCA filter installation.


krkaufman said:


> ... do you have a *tuning adapter* from TWC connected to your Roamio Pro?
> 
> If so, you must be aware that the "TV/RF Out" port of tuning adapters (TA) do NOT pass MoCA signals, so a MoCA-enabled device daisy-chained off a TA's TV/RF Out port would not be able to communicate via MoCA. As joestan indicated, you would need to use a 2-way MoCA-compliant splitter to feed coax to the tuning adapter and Roamio Pro separately; in addition, to protect the tuning adapter from the MoCA signals (see here), you would also need to install a MoCA filter on the coax input to the tuning adapter.
> 
> See Step #5 in the *Cox tuning adapter setup document* for a good diagram showing how to properly connect a TiVo and tuning adapter in a MoCA environment (excluding the Ethernet connection you will require for the TiVo). And, yes, this connection setup applies to TWC tuning adapter installs, as well.


----------



## krkaufman

mdavej said:


> Because I'm extremely cheap. My system works fine at the moment. When I put a Moca signal on the TA, I'll know right away if it caused a problem. I just wanted to know if there was a 100% chance Moca would interfere with my TA or not.


It *would* have been nice had we developed a list of known-good/-bad tuning adapters in regards to MoCA. Let us know how yours works-out, and maybe we can start that list/post.


----------



## HarperVision

If you just connect your TA to the output of your moca adapter's pass through then you don't have to worry about a filter, since there's an internal diplexer in it, in that instance.


----------



## mdavej

Thanks all for the suggestions. I'll post back in a few days when I get everything connected.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> It *would* have been nice had we developed a list of known-good/-bad tuning adapters in regards to MoCA. Let us know how yours works-out, and maybe we can start that list/post.


I agree, but isn't there really only 2 that are in use depending on the headend brand? The Motorola/Arris MTR700 and the SA/Cisco STA1520? I'm not familiar with any other models.


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> I agree, but isn't there really only 2 that are in use depending on the headend brand? The Motorola/Arris MTR700 and the SA/Cisco STA1520? I'm not familiar with any other models.


No clue, not ever having had to use one, myself. There are only a few, I expect, and was looking for mdavej's feedback to perhaps seed an/my effort to go track down any other models mentioned and easily located in past threads.

The point is, you had to ask, right, versus being able to simply reference a known-good/-bad list.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> No clue, not ever having had to use one, myself. There are only a few, I expect, and was looking for mdavej's feedback to perhaps seed an/my effort to go track down any other models mentioned and easily located in past threads.
> 
> *The point is, you had to ask, right, versus being able to simply reference a known-good/-bad list.*


Exactly! :up:


----------



## mdavej

Not much to report as my new modem didn't work with my provider. But I did have Moca on the line for a few minutes, and my Moto TA apparently stayed connected, sans POE filter. Cable company claims they will support my modem in a few months. So I plan to try again then.

EDIT: I managed to snag a filter for under $3. I can deal with that.


----------



## heisman6183

Just a question if the following connection would work with a Tivo Mini. I currently only have a Tivo Roamio OTA with Tivo Stream. Current connection is modem---Airport Extreme---switch---Roamio OTA (switch also connects with a separate cable to Tivo Stream). The mini would connect modem---Airport Extreme---Airport Express---Mini. The Airport Extreme is hardwired to both the switch (used for Roamio OTA and Stream) and the Airport Express. Would that connection work to connect Roamio OTA to a mini, or would they not be able to "see" each other, necessitating a Moca setup? Thanks.


----------



## mdavej

I don't see why not. Give it a shot. I don't know exactly how an Express works, but I assume you would hard wire the Mini to it somehow?


----------



## krkaufman

heisman6183 said:


> Just a question if the following connection would work with a Tivo Mini.
> ...
> Current connection is modem---Airport Extreme---switch---Roamio OTA (switch also connects with a separate cable to Tivo Stream).
> ...
> The mini would connect modem---Airport Extreme---Airport Express---Mini. The Airport Extreme is hardwired to both the switch (used for Roamio OTA and Stream) and the Airport Express.
> ...
> Would that connection work to connect Roamio OTA to a mini, or would they not be able to "see" each other, necessitating a Moca setup? Thanks.


As mdavej indicates, for an officially supported solution the Mini would need to be hard-wired, via Ethernet or MoCA.

I would think the AirPort Express would need to be configured in AP Mode and its Ethernet WAN port repurposed as a LAN port for your suggested configuration to work. Otherwise, you'd need to replace the AirPort Express with an Ethernet switch, to which both the Mini and AirPort Express could connect.

edit: p.s. This wikipedia comparison chart indicates your plan would work with the latest AirPort Express.


----------



## HarperVision

mdavej said:


> I don't see why not. Give it a shot. I don't know exactly how an Express works, but I assume you would hard wire the Mini to it somehow?





krkaufman said:


> As mdavej indicates, for an officially supported solution the Mini would need to be hard-wired, via Ethernet or MoCA. I would think the AirPort Express would need to be configured in AP Mode and its Ethernet WAN port repurposed as a LAN port for your suggested configuration to work. Otherwise, you'd need to replace the AirPort Express with an Ethernet switch, to which both the Mini and AirPort Express could connect. edit: p.s. This wikipedia comparison chart indicates your plan would work with the latest AirPort Express.


He did say that his express is hard wired:



heisman6183 said:


> .......The mini would connect modem---Airport Extreme---Airport Express---Mini. *The Airport Extreme is hardwired to both the switch (used for Roamio OTA and Stream) and the Airport Express. * .........


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> He did say that his express is hard wired:


Being hard-wired can be moot when bringing another router into the mix, thus the emphasis on repurposing of the Ethernet WAN port and AP mode. Just daisy-chaining the AirPort Express and Mini off the Extreme using Ethernet cables won't get the job done; the AirPort Express will need to be properly configured so that it's two (2) Ethernet ports are on the same LAN.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> Being hard-wired can be moot when bringing another router into the mix, thus the emphasis on repurposing of the Ethernet WAN port and AP mode. Just daisy-chaining the AirPort Express and Mini off the Extreme using Ethernet cables won't get the job done; the AirPort Express will need to be properly configured so that it's two (2) Ethernet ports are on the same LAN.


I agree and it was a great suggestion telling him that. I was merely clarifying that his scenario is all being wired because it seems like that wasn't understood by what was written.

AP mode is for wireless, for example.


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> AP mode is for wireless, for example.


It is also likely the label for the AirPort Express configuration required for the two Ethernet ports on the AirPort Express to both be configured for use as LAN ports, with Client Mode being the other possibility, negated by the wired connection to the AirPort Extreme router.


----------



## HarperVision

Yeah, most likely. :up:


----------



## heisman6183

I believe the way I have it set up now is the AirPort Express is using 1 port as WAN (connected via ethernet to AirPort Extreme) and the other as LAN. From the advice, it sounds like I should connect the AirPort Express wirelessly to the AirPort Extreme and have both port on the AirPort Express used as LAN. If I understand correctly, the switch in between the AirPort Extreme and the Roamio does not change it to a different LAN?


----------



## krkaufman

heisman6183 said:


> I believe the way I have it set up now is the AirPort Express is using 1 port as WAN (connected via ethernet to AirPort Extreme) and the other as LAN. From the advice, *it sounds like I should connect the AirPort Express wirelessly to the AirPort Extreme *and have both port on the AirPort Express used as LAN.


Definitely not, no, negatory, uh-uh, newp.

Can you get into your AirPort Express and report back with the different "modes" it offers (e.g. "Router", "Bridge", "Client", "AP", "Access Point", ???), and which is currently set?



heisman6183 said:


> If I understand correctly, the switch in between the AirPort Extreme and the Roamio does not change it to a different LAN?


That's correct. And it may be what you need to do to connect to your Mini, as well, if we can't get the AirPort Express properly configured: wired to the AirPort Extreme, but configured such that both of the AirPort Express' Ethernet ports are on the same LAN.

I'll see what I can find re: AirPort Express documentation in order to get the terminology correct.


----------



## krkaufman

heisman6183 said:


> The mini would connect modem---Airport Extreme---Airport Express[WAN]---Mini.


Getting a bit more explicit with the connections, they'll be wired:
modem[ETH] --- AP Extreme[WAN] / AP Extreme[LAN] --- AP Express[WAN] --- Mini[ETH]​
And it looks like configuration should be as easy as setting "Connection Sharing" to "*Off (Bridge Mode)*" on the AirPort Express. 
_Note that some articles refer to the configuration option as "Router Mode" rather than "Connection Sharing."_​
Read on and review the linked articles for details...

-----

*BACKGROUND:*

See: *Wi-Fi base stations: Extending the range of your wireless network by adding additional Wi-Fi base stations*
*Multi Wi-Fi base station network* - A network that utilizes more than one Wi-Fi base station to extend the range of a network, or to extend features such as Internet access, music streaming, printing, storage, etc. The Wi-Fi base stations may be connected together via Ethernet or wirelessly.

*Roaming Network (Ethernet-connected Wi-Fi base stations)*

This set up requires that your Wi-Fi base stations are connected via Ethernet.
The primary base station provides DHCP Services, while the extended base station will be configured to use bridge mode.
All Wi-Fi base stations within the roaming network should use the same passwords, security type (Open/WEP/WPA), and network name (SSID).

*HOW-TO:*

See: * Wi-Fi base stations: Setting up and configuring a roaming network (802.11 a/b/g/n)*
*Set up: Connecting your Wi-Fi base stations together*

Use Ethernet to connect from a LAN port of the primary Wi-Fi base station to the WAN port of an extended Wi-Fi base station. The primary base station is the base station connected directly to the Internet.

*To configure a roaming network*


Power on all 802.11n Wi-Fi base stations and allow them time to appear in the AirPort Menu Extra.

Open AirPort Utility (On a Mac, choose Go > Applications from your desktop, click the Utilities folder, then open AirPort Utility. In Microsoft Windows, choose Start > All Programs > AirPort to start AirPort Utility).

If you are configuring the primary Wi-Fi base station, set Connection Sharing to "Share a public IP address."

*If you are configuring the extended Wi-Fi base stations, set Connection Sharing to "Off (Bridge Mode)."*

Use AirPort Utility to configure the Wireless Network Name, security, and password on each Wi-Fi base station to be exactly the same.

*NOTES:*

Per AirPort Express Setup Guide, Ethernet ports on AirPort Express are limited to Fast Ethernet (100 Mbps)


----------



## HarperVision

I just bought the latest gen airport express and have it hooked up the way he does. I have the WAN hooked to my switch and LAN to my device (HDHR Prime in this case). I don't recall all the options when I set it up, but the default was Bridged Mode with DHCP and NAT disabled and it worked fine just extending my hard wired connection to the wireless signal and the LAN connector. 

Hope that info helps. I can check the full settings when I get home from work if needed.


----------



## aprest

I have just bought a used Premiere Elite XL4 and have not set it up yet. I am waiting for delivery of the Verizion FiOS cable card. Given that my network is MOCA enabled and works great using MOCA adapters on my four older TiVO boxes, can I feed the Premiere XL4 with COAX and then attach an RJ45 Ethernet cable to the Premiere XL4 and feed an Ethernet switch from the Premiere XL4 that is used for Ethernet providing Internet to my Roku and other boxes that need Ethernet? I am hoping that I can eliminate the MOCA adapter used to feed one of the older TiVO boxes that will be replaced with the Premiere XL4.


----------



## krkaufman

aprest said:


> I have just bought a used Premiere Elite XL4 ... Given that my network is MOCA enabled ... can I feed the Premiere XL4 with COAX and then attach an RJ45 Ethernet cable to the Premiere XL4 and feed an Ethernet switch from the Premiere XL4


You should be able to do this, yes, though TiVo doesn't officially support it.

edit: p.s. To set it up, you'll need to *first configure the Premiere XL4 to "Connect using MoCA,"* with the Ethernet cable disconnected from the XL4. Once the XL4 is verified to be networking via MoCA, you should be able to connect its Ethernet port to the isolated network switch and the XL4 should transparently bridge traffic back to your router's Ethernet LAN.


----------



## TBoyd

I helped a buddy install a Bolt in his family room with MoCa enabled for a Mini in a GrandMa suite. Now he'd like to put an older Tivo Premiere in the master bedroom where he's got a cable drop already. 

Am I correct in thinking that he just needs to buy a Tivo MoCa Network Adapter for the Premiere, tell the Premiere he's using MoCa and he's good to go? 

OR, does he really need the MoCA Adapter at all, just configure the Premiere as MoCa and it works?


----------



## rcandsc

TBoyd said:


> OR, does he really need the MoCA Adapter at all, just configure the Premiere as MoCa and it works?


The set up I have is a Roamio Pro using Moca connection, and I have two Premier XL4 boxes connected via Moca as well, with no adapters.


----------



## TBoyd

Thanks, Rcandsc. Good news, no $$ for new HW!


----------



## TBoyd

He says there's no MOCA option on the Premiere network menu. Maybe it's an early Premiere model. Possible? -- Would buying a MOCA Network Adapter get it working?


----------



## krkaufman

TBoyd said:


> Am I correct in thinking that he just needs to buy a Tivo MoCa Network Adapter for the Premiere, tell the Premiere he's using MoCa and he's good to go?
> 
> OR, does he really need the MoCA Adapter at all, just configure the Premiere as MoCa and it works?


It depends on which Premiere model you're specifically referring to.

*4-tuner Premieres* have the same MoCA capability as 6-tuner Roamios and the BOLT models. These can connect to an existing MoCA network via the "Connect using MoCA" network settings menu option.

*2-tuner Premieres have NO MoCA capability*, like the 4-tuner Roamios, and require a MoCA adapter to provide a network connection via the coax lines. The Premiere would connect to the Ethernet port of the MoCA adapter and would be configured for an Ethernet connection. The Premiere won't know anything about the MoCA adapter.

NOTE that the MoCA adapter could also be connected to a network switch, to which the Premiere and other Ethernet-capable devices could connect, if you have a need for multiple Ethernet connections at this location.​
The choice of MoCA adapter is up to you, but know that the MoCA adapter will connect to the Premiere's Fast Ethernet port, so a MoCA 2.0 adapter would be overkill. Unfortunately, MoCA 1.1 adapters aren't all that much cheaper than MoCA 2.0 adapters via retail. Some people have had good luck custom configuring Verizon/Actiontec MI424-WR Rev.I routers (the "Rev.I" is critical) as MoCA adapters, providing slightly more functionality than a standard MoCA adapter, along with being cheaper to find/buy on eBay.

See also: MoCA adapter shopping list


----------



## TBoyd

Thanks, Krkaufman. That's the A answer. (It IS an original 2 tuner model) And I just looked at the Tivo store price and it's on sale for $49. Thanks!


----------



## krkaufman

TBoyd said:


> I just looked at the Tivo store price and it's on sale for $49.


Happy to help.

But *what's on sale for $49 at the TiVo Store?*


----------



## TBoyd

re: On sale for $49 -- The OLD MOCA Network Adapter. I was looking at the Tivo Store on an iPhone and it passed me to an obsolete hierarchy. (Stupid INTERNET) -- I re-directed my buddy to the $79 Tivo Bridge. ;-) 

Thanks again. 

T


----------



## krkaufman

Ok, that maps to my experience. I thought I was missing a sale. Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## pylo

Hey guys / gals so, now that I have my tivo bolt and roamio OTA with cable card working, I'm on to the next step. I will be setting up two tivo mini's. My question is if I use the bolt to set up Moca will the mini's use the tuners on any or just one of the tivo's? Thanks


----------



## krkaufman

pylo said:


> My question is if I use the bolt to set up Moca will the mini's use the tuners on any or just one of the tivo's?


When tuning Live TV, a Mini will request a tuner from the DVR currently configured as its "host DVR." The "host DVR" association can be easily changed through the Mini's Settings menu.

In any case, TiVo officially requires a hard-wired connection path between the Mini and the DVR from which it is streaming content, whether previously recorded or live TV. YMMV using alternative networking technologies.


----------



## samsauce29

Sorry, I've been meaning to post this for awhile. I have an ECB2500C MOCA adapter that I'm not using. "Free" to a good home, just pay me actual cost of shipping, USPS preferred, but could do UPS if needed.

Just PM me if interested.


----------



## ohboy710

This question may already be answered in the previous 93 pages but I would like some clarification. My house is all ethernet connected so the TiVo minis were simple to connect here..... however I gave my mom my Romeo four tuner (the base model I think) and bought her a mini for her bedroom. i'm a bit confused on how to use moca - does the Romeo and Mini both have moca built into it and it does her router need to support moca - I know her router is old so I'm sure it doesn't support that but I was confused on exactly how this works. Can somebody give me some clarification on exactly how I would set this up at her house?


----------



## mdavej

Roamio 4 tuner does not have Moca built in. Router generally does not have to be Moca compatible.

Too many unknowns to give you any advice. Is coax the only available connection available to the Roamio and Mini?


----------



## fcfc2

ohboy710 said:


> This question may already be answered in the previous 93 pages but I would like some clarification. My house is all ethernet connected so the TiVo minis were simple to connect here..... however I gave my mom my Romeo four tuner (the base model I think) and bought her a mini for her bedroom. i'm a bit confused on how to use moca - does the Romeo and Mini both have moca built into it and it does her router need to support moca - I know her router is old so I'm sure it doesn't support that but I was confused on exactly how this works. Can somebody give me some clarification on exactly how I would set this up at her house?


In most cases, except Fios, you will need one or possibly up to 3 MoCA filters, one on the input of the first splitter to enter the home, and possibly one for the cable modem if it is not MoCA friendly, on one more for a tuning adapter if used. Assuming you have an Ethernet connection to the Roamio Base unit, you would also need one MoCA adapter to establish a MoCA network, then use the minis builtin MoCA adapter and use the "connect to a MoCA network" setting.


----------



## Jeff Thompson

Hi, I just wanted to thank everyone posting here. I read all 91 pages of this thread before implementing my first Tivo/MoCA setup and the installation went without a hitch, largely due to the preparation I'd done that I learned via this thread.

My install consists of a Bolt+ and two Mini's, plus two Charter digital HD cable boxes.

First, I ordered the Actiontec Bonded MoCA 2.0 Ethernet to Coax Adapter 2 Pack (ECB6200K02), as well as several Holland MoCA rated 2 and 3 way splitters, as well as two POE filters (one for ingress and one to the output leg of the splitter that has my Motorola TA).

I hooked it all up before Charter turned on actual Cable TV service and was amazed at my PHY rates the Mini's were reporting! My MoCA network consists of 4 nodes, comprised of: Bolt+, 2 Mini's, and one Actiontec bonded MoCA adapter. The TX PHY rates run from 254 to 277 and my RX PHY rates from 264 to 287.

It took me about 5 minutes to get my CableCard and TA activated with Charter. The person I spoke to asked for the Host ID and Data ID and the activation went without a hitch.

The only real "problem" I had was the Charter installer insisted in replacing all of my MoCA rated Holland splitters with the Charter supplied splitters, which were rated for 5-1002Mhz. I told him that the splitters that I had purchased were rated specifically for MoCA, but he maintained that he had to use Charter supplied filters. I didn't want to argue with him, so I let him replace the splitters. Once he left, I checked my PHY rates and they were much lower, as low as 60! Once he left, I put back all of the Holland Moca rated splitters and PHY rates jumped way back up...

The Charter installer also insisted that he remove the POE filter on the line coming into my house. He stated that it wasn't needed and would only "get in the way"... Same thing, didn't argue, let him remove it and promptly installed it again once he was gone.

TL;DR - Cable installers are clueless when it comes to MoCA. I'm sure that's not true of all of them, but I only have my one experience to go on. Do your own research and don't assume your cable TV installer knows what they're doing!


----------



## krkaufman

Jeff Thompson said:


> Hi, I just wanted to thank everyone posting here. I read all 91 pages of this thread before implementing my first Tivo/MoCA setup and the installation went without a hitch, largely due to the preparation I'd done that I learned via this thread.


Seriously, give yourself a pat on the back for the prep work done, especially for having pored through this entire thread, and your application of the Serenity Prayer to cable installs.


----------



## thyname

krkaufman said:


> ... give yourself a pat on the back for ..... your application of the Serenity Prayer to cable installs.


+1. Exactly my thoughts.


----------



## krkaufman

Jeff Thompson said:


> The TX PHY rates run from 254 to 277 and my RX PHY rates from 264 to 287.


I'd be curious as to what you're seeing for TX/RX power estimates (as an indication of how hard the MoCA chips are having to work to attain the targeted PHY rates).


----------



## Jeff Thompson

krkaufman said:


> I'd be curious as to what you're seeing for TX/RX power estimates (as an indication of how hard the MoCA chips are having to work to attain the targeted PHY rates).


Screen shots from one of the Mini's are attached...


----------



## krkaufman

Jeff Thompson said:


> Screen shots from one of the Mini's are attached...


Thanks for the screenshots. As you said, great PHY rates. If you ever sketch a diagram of your coax network, down the road, I'd be an interested customer. (Trying to make sense of the power estimates.)


----------



## Jeff Thompson

krkaufman said:


> Thanks for the screenshots. As you said, great PHY rates. If you ever sketch a diagram of your coax network, down the road, I'd be an interested customer. (Trying to make sense of the power estimates.)


Please forgive the rather crude drawing, but it should give a good logical diagram of my Coax network and MoCA devices...


----------



## krkaufman

Jeff Thompson said:


> Please forgive the rather crude drawing, but it should give a good logical diagram of my Coax network and MoCA devices...


Great diagram; and I see no options for improvement. Thanks.


----------



## Jeff Thompson

krkaufman said:


> Great diagram; and I see no options for improvement. Thanks.


Thanks! I would have been lost if not for all of the useful information in this thread, so thanks to you and the many others that have so thoroughly discussed this topic...


----------



## ohboy710

mdavej said:


> Roamio 4 tuner does not have Moca built in. Router generally does not have to be Moca compatible.
> 
> Too many unknowns to give you any advice. Is coax the only available connection available to the Roamio and Mini?


Thank you for the info. To test it out I just used Wireless N between Roamio and Mini and it's been working for a week so far just fine. I'll hold off on Moca for a while until I see how this goes.


----------



## SnakeEyes

Because of signal strength and line noise my home has a few additional splits that currently exist. Setup is this:



Code:


coax point of entry
       |
  Splitter
|       |
Modem   Amplifier
             |
             Splitter_________________________
             |                |         |    |
             TiVo R Plus  TiVo Premier  TV  TV
             |
             Modem (Ethernet)

I know this is in the Mini thread so if there is a non-mini thread about moca setup let me know. I'm trying to figure out any reason why the Premiere is not seeing the Roamio Plus's moca network.


----------



## krkaufman

SnakeEyes said:


> Because of signal strength and line noise my home has a few additional splits that currently exist. Setup is this:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> coax point of entry
> |
> Splitter
> |       |
> Modem   Amplifier
> |
> Splitter_________________________
> |                |         |    |
> TiVo R Plus  TiVo Premier  TV  TV
> |
> Modem (Ethernet)
> 
> I know this is in the Mini thread so if there is a non-mini thread about moca setup let me know. I'm trying to figure out any reason why the Premiere is not seeing the Roamio Plus's moca network.


First guess would be the *amplifier* inhibiting MoCA signals; I'd also want to confirm that you have a *4-tuner Premiere* model, capable of connecting as a MoCA client, and that you don't have any *tuning adapter*s installed that aren't included in your above diagram. Other than that you'd have to look at your *splitter*, coax lines and connections.

Assuming you need that amplifier, you could install a MoCA filter on the input to the splitter downstream of the amp, to isolate your MoCA signals to just where they're needed, and isolating them from the MoCA-hostile in-line amp. You'd also want to look at upgrading your splitters to a known-good MoCA-compatible model if the MoCA filter doesn't do the trick.


Code:


coax point of entry
       |
  Splitter
|       |
Modem   Amplifier
             |
            [X]  <== install PoE MoCA filter here
             |
             Splitter_________________________
             |                |         |    |
             TiVo R Plus  TiVo Premier  TV  TV
             |
             Modem (Ethernet)

-----
More info on PoE MoCA filter here: Why? & How?

MoCA filter sources:
Your cable provider
TiVo.com Store
Amazon
TechToolSupply​


----------



## krkaufman

p.s. An alternative would be to replace the 2 splitters, amp and MoCA filter with a single "designed for MoCA" amp. (e.g. these, these)



Code:


             coax point of entry
                      |
              [MoCA Amplifier]
   _______________________________________
   |           |            |        |    |
Gateway    RoamioPlus    Premiere   TV   TV
   ║           ║
   ╚====Eth====╝


----------



## Jonathan Dornblaser

Hi! I need some help setting up my moca network using my Tivo bolt and Tivo Mini. I currently have verizon fios (150 mbps) and thus they are bringing the internet into the home via ethernet (no coax for my internet). Therefore there is no coax connected to my verizon fios router. Tivo told me that I need to add a hub or a switch somewhere to make the moca work, but I have no idea. Help! Here is my set up

Coax verizon fios ethernet
I I 
Tivo Bolt --- ethernet cable -- verizon fios gateway router 

Thanks! 
Jonathan


----------



## krkaufman

Jonathan Dornblaser said:


> need some help setting up my moca network using my Tivo bolt and Tivo Mini. I currently have verizon fios ... internet into the home via ethernet (no coax for my internet). Therefore there is no coax connected to my verizon fios router. Tivo told me that I need to add a hub or a switch somewhere to make the moca work, .... Here is my set up
> 
> Coax verizon fios ethernet
> I I
> Tivo Bolt --- ethernet cable -- verizon fios gateway router


TiVo Support can be a silly, unhelpful bunch. You have a "switch" in your FiOS gateway... to which your BOLT is connected, and your BOLT is also connected to your coax lines; so, you can use your BOLT to create your MoCA network. I believe you'd be looking for the "MoCA Bridge" option (or something like that) in the BOLT's new, updated UI. (Just don't freak out if/when you get a C33 error on initializing the MoCA network on your BOLT; see this post for more info)

The unknown is whether your Mini is connected to the same coax lines as your BOLT. If it is, you can try configuring the Mini with "Connect using MoCA" option once the MoCA network has been established by the BOLT.

Oh, also, you'd want to get a "PoE" MoCA filter installed on the first splitter encountered by the coax line coming from the FiOS ONT. The "PoE" MoCA filter isn't needed for security on FiOS installs, but it would provide a MoCA LAN performance improvement.


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## krkaufman

Jonathan Dornblaser said:


> Hi! I need some help setting up my moca network ...


FYI... User has started a parallel thread, here:

Setting up a Moca Network with Verizon Fios 150 mbps from ONT via ethernet​


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## Jonathan Dornblaser

krkaufman said:


> TiVo Support can be a silly, unhelpful bunch. You have a "switch" in your FiOS gateway... to which your BOLT is connected, and your BOLT is also connected to your coax lines; so, you can use your BOLT to create your MoCA network. I believe you'd be looking for the "MoCA Bridge" option (or something like that) in the BOLT's new, updated UI. (Just don't freak out if/when you get a C33 error on initializing the MoCA network on your BOLT; see this post for more info)
> 
> The unknown is whether your Mini is connected to the same coax lines as your BOLT. If it is, you can try configuring the Mini with "Connect using MoCA" option once the MoCA network has been established by the BOLT.
> 
> Oh, also, you'd want to get a "PoE" MoCA filter installed on the first splitter encountered by the coax line coming from the FiOS ONT. The "PoE" MoCA filter isn't needed for security on FiOS installs, but it would provide a MoCA LAN performance improvement.


HI! Thanks for the quick response. I complete agree that this all should be working and that tivo is a bit silly! 
You have my set up nailed! I have my tivo bolt connected to the fios router via ethernet cable and there is a coax going into the back of my tivo bolt. the coax going to my tivo bolt is splits before it gets there... one goes to the bolt and the other to the mini (it is a 1675 mhz moca 2.0 splitter) . I still have no luck connecting to the MOCA network. My mini gives me the same C33 error and refuses to let me proceed any further with the set up. Any other ideas? 
I do have a POE filter on the main cable line coming in before anything is split.  Thank you!!


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## Jonathan Dornblaser

Okay, here is an update. I did as you recommended and was able to successfully connect my tivo mini to my tivo bolt via coax cable and download all the updates. I took it back up stairs to my sun room, turned it on and it could not find the network. So I am guessing that this confirms that my TIVO bolt is capable of setting up a moca network, but now I have to figure out why it can't connect/reach to my sun room. The cable going there (as stated before) is coming off of a splitter. So there is a single cable which splits to 2, one goes to the bolt and the other to the mini. The run to the mini is probably about 50 ft? Thoughts?


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## krkaufman

Jonathan Dornblaser said:


> So I am guessing that this confirms that my TIVO bolt is capable of setting up a moca network, but now I have to figure out why it can't connect/reach to my sun room.


Agreed.



Jonathan Dornblaser said:


> I do have a POE filter on the main cable line coming in before anything is split.





Jonathan Dornblaser said:


> So there is a single cable which splits to 2, one goes to the bolt and the other to the mini. The run to the mini is probably about 50 ft? Thoughts?


Short-term, if only to get these two devices communicating, you might move your "PoE" MoCA filter to the input of the splitter feeding the runs to the BOLT and Mini. This would isolate your MoCA network to just the BOLT and Mini segments and may be enough to get the Mini talking.

p.s. Nicely done getting the Mini MoCA connection checked-out by moving it to the BOLT. And, yes, that certainly indicates the BOLT's MoCA network is available and the Mini can connect as a client.


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## krkaufman

Jonathan Dornblaser said:


> My mini gives me the same C33 error and refuses to let me proceed any further with the set up. Any other ideas?


If you move the "PoE" filter to the MoCA 2.0-compliant splitter connecting the BOLT and the Mini and the Mini *still* cannot connect to the BOLT, I'd be inclined to think there's something wrong with the coax cable/connections on the Mini run -- starting with wondering if the run is actually connected.

edit: p.s. Odd connector problems aren't unheard of. (link)


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## epstewart

krkaufman said:


> If you move the "PoE" filter to the MoCA 2.0-compliant splitter connecting the BOLT and the Mini and the Mini *still* cannot connect to the BOLT, I'd be inclined to think there's something wrong with the coax cable/connections on the Mini run -- starting with wondering if the run is actually connected.
> 
> edit: p.s. Odd connector problems aren't unheard of. (link)


Might he try temporarily moving the Bolt to the sun room and hooking it to the coax there? If it still gets the signal from the coax, then probably the coax connection to the sun room is OK. Otherwise, the sun room coax connection is probably bad. Also, if the sun room coax connection is bad, could the problem be that one side of the splitter is bad? Swapping the two splitter outputs temporarily might confirm that, since the coax connection to the sun room would suddenly begin to work, while the coax connection in the other room (where the Bolt normally is) would stop working.

Edit: I take that last part of the suggestion back, as I suppose both sides of the splitter worked when the Bolt and Mini were together in the same room.


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## suzook

This thread is long, so I apologize in advance. I have a 4 tuner roamio ota currently. Will be adding 3 minis. Current roamio is wired to ethernet,and I am aware no moca built in. So to use my current new minis on moca, since where they will be has coax, is only one moca adaper needed to make my current unused coax "live" with moca?
Edit. Sounds like a TiVo bridge is way to go. One question I do have though, is can I keep my roamio connected to ethernet???


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## Peter Reissfelder

I have the same question and setup as you. I believe because the coax goes into the Bridge adapter and then out on Ethernet to TiVo DVR, you should be all set when you hook your minis to the coax in your rooms and then from mini to tv via hdmi cable. Again, that is my thinking only. I am gonna to hook up my minis tonight and see.


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## suzook

Peter Reissfelder said:


> I have the same question and setup as you. I believe because the coax goes into the Bridge adapter and then out on Ethernet to TiVo DVR, you should be all set when you hook your minis to the coax in your rooms and then from mini to tv via hdmi cable. Again, that is my thinking only. I am gonna to hook up my minis tonight and see.


Thanks, let me know how it works out.


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## Peter Reissfelder

It worked.

So my MoCA network setup goes like this:
drop at house>POE filter>comcast amplifier with 4 outs>4 outs to individual rooms>individual living room coax with splitter rated to 1650 GHz>1 out to modem/router>2 out to Bridge adapter>Bridge adapter to TiVO Roamio OTA via ethernet cable>hdtv antenna to TiVo Roamio OTA. 
Do the step by step start up for Roamio OTA and opt for ethernet setup. If you have a modem/router from cable company & you do NOT get connected to during setup, then you need to call cable company to have them "enable" the MoCA modem/router(the default setting is OFF and they need to turn it on). Activate the Roamio OTA online. Then do you minis.

Mini setup. Wall coax in room to mini>mini to hdtv via ethernet>plug in mini>find correct input on tv that now shows the mini setup on your tv screen. 
Follow the instruction step by step, especially the part that says you need to "activate" the mini online and wait 15 minutes before continuing the setup. If your mini can NOT connect to modem/router, then depending upon what the error message says, you will either have to reset the router OR call cable company to make sure MoCA is enabled OR go to main Roamio OTA DVR and do the following:
Using your host TiVo DVR, go to _TiVo Central > Settings & Messages > Settings > Network > Connect to the TiVo Service Now._* Repeat this step twice so that your TiVo DVR recognizes your new TiVo Mini.*

Hope this helps.


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## Peter Reissfelder

In prior message....couple typos
I left out that the Roamio OTA DVR connects to TV via HDMI cord.
Also, for mini I said mini to hdtv via either net and i meant hdmi cable.


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## krkaufman

suzook said:


> This thread is long, so I apologize in advance. I have a 4 tuner roamio ota currently. Will be adding 3 minis. Current roamio is wired to ethernet,and I am aware no moca built in. So to use my current new minis on moca, since where they will be has coax, is only one moca adaper needed to make my current unused coax "live" with moca?
> Edit. Sounds like a TiVo bridge is way to go. One question I do have though, is can I keep my roamio connected to ethernet???


Yes, you can have a mix of MoCA and Ethernet, so the existing Roamio can remain connected via Ethernet.

Aside from the single MoCA adapter that you'll need to establish the MoCA network for your Minis and bridge their traffic to your LAN and the Internet, you'll likely also need to install a "PoE" MoCA filter to secure and strengthen your MoCA network -- though whether and exactly where you'd need the MoCA filter is dependent on what else is connected to the same coax lines. (more on "PoE" MoCA filters here)

Separately, it can be advantageous (not required) to connect both the main DVR and the bridging MoCA adapter to a standalone network switch (with just the network switch having a physical Ethernet connection to the router's built-in switch, rather than each device connecting to the router) to avoid TiVo viewing outages during a router reboot. Internet streaming would still be disrupted, obviously, but viewing of live and recorded TV content could continue uninterrupted.


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## krkaufman

Peter Reissfelder said:


> So my MoCA network setup goes like this:
> drop at house>POE filter>comcast amplifier with 4 outs>4 outs to individual rooms>individual living room coax with splitter rated to 1650 GHz>1 out to modem/router>2 out to Bridge adapter>Bridge adapter to TiVO Roamio OTA via ethernet cable>hdtv antenna to TiVo Roamio OTA.
> Do the step by step start up for Roamio OTA and opt for ethernet setup. If you have a modem/router from cable company & you do NOT get connected to during setup, then you need to call cable company to have them "enable" the MoCA modem/router(the default setting is OFF and they need to turn it on). Activate the Roamio OTA online. Then do you minis.


Your setup appears to differ from that described by the previous poster, @suzook, since their DVR is connected to the router via Ethernet; further, you appear to be relying on your cable gateway (combo modem/router) to establish your MoCA network, whereas @suzook needed (presumably) a MoCA adapter to establish the MoCA network and bridge it back to the home network and Internet (via connection to the router). However, if @suzook *did* have a cable gateway capable of establishing the MoCA network, they wouldn't need ANY MoCA adapters to get their TiVo whole home setup working -- again, with the DVR connected to the router via Ethernet and the Minis connecting to the gateway-established MoCA network.

p.s. More on the issue of Mini activation here.


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## Not Super Savy

Hi Everyone,

I am sorry if my question has been answered somewhere along the way.

I have a TiVo Bolt that is connected to the internet via WiFi through old and unreliable router and modem that I need to replace. I previously purchased a new modem/router combination which I have been unable to connect via WiFi to my Bolt (it works with my other devices). TiVo's customer service has directed me to my ISP (Comcast) to solve the problem, but my ISP has been unable to solve the problem.

If possible, I would prefer to completely avoid a WiFi connection to my Bolt, so that I can avoid additional customer service phone time.

Some type of MoCa network appears to be a viable solution, but I want to make sure.

My Bolt is attached to my TV's wall mount and is behind my TV on the wall. The Bolt has a COAX cable running directly into it from the wall. There is no Ethernet port on that wall.

The modem and router (I am using the old ones again now for the time being) are on an adjacent wall.

The adjacent wall (the one with the modem and router) has a COAX port and a COAX cable that runs out of it which is split. One of the COAX cables is connected directly into the modem. The other COAX cable goes through the wall, outside of the house, and back into the house through the wall that has the Bolt. This second COAX cable is the one that I previously mentioned that connects directly into the Bolt. 

If I buy the TiVo Bridge MoCa 2.0 adapter, and set it up on the adjacent wall, is there a way that I can give the Bolt an internet connection without running any additional cables directly to the Bolt and without relying on WiFi? Is there something I need to buy in addition (or instead of) the TiVo Bridge MoCa 2.0 adapter?

Thank you very much.


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## krkaufman

Assuming you install a MoCA adapter that only has a single coax "IN" port (i.e. lacks a pass-through for Tv/cable-only signals), such as the TiVo Bridge, you'd install this MoCA adapter at your modem/router location... and you'd need to either cascade another 2-way splitter off the existing splitter via a connecting coax cable, or upgrade the existing 2-way splitter to a 3-way. Either way, connect the MoCA adapter to the freshly available third coax output of the splitter (or 2 splitter combo).

Additionally, you'd want to install a "PoE" MoCA filter on the input to the existing splitter or replacement 3-way, to isolate your MoCA signals inside the home. See here for more info on "PoE" MoCA filters.

Once the main bridging MoCA adapter is in place and connected to both the coax lines, as described above, and a LAN port on your router, you should be able to go to the BOLT and reconfigure it as a MoCA client.


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## gbo000

Sorry if I repeat anything - just looking for confirmation I have this correct. I have verizon fios however I am using my own router (with no moca bridge built in). I am looking to have a Bolt and a Mini. The Bolt will have direct access to what ever it needs (moca, eth). The mini will only have access to coax (its upstairs). I am assuming:
-I dont need a coax filter
-I need a moca bridge installed directly from the coax out of the ONT
-The main bolt will need both the Eth (from my router) and coax (from the moca bridge)








Does this look correct?
Also, just curious - is the tivo branded bridge my best bet or is there a better recommendation?
Thank you for your help


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## krkaufman

gbo000 said:


> I am assuming:
> -I dont need a coax filter
> -I need a moca bridge installed directly from the coax out of the ONT
> -The main bolt will need both the Eth (from my router) and coax (from the moca bridge)


Scratch the MoCA bridge and you should be fine[1], connecting the ONT to the splitter input; though a "PoE" MoCA filter on the input of the splitter could benefit the performance of your MoCA network[2].

[1] With the BOLT connected via both coax and Ethernet, you can configure the BOLT as your main MoCA/Ethernet bridge.

[2] Having a fiber install, you don't need a "PoE" MoCA filter for securing your MoCA network, but it can provide a performance/efficiency boost. (see here)

? Are you tuning cable TV via a FiOS-supplied CableCARD?


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## gbo000

Very helpful, thank you for your help. Yes I would be using a fios cable card.


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## krkaufman

Amazon reviews can be interesting reading. Also, TiVo Support can be just awful.



> *Office Mom*
> Reviewed in the United States on November 18, 2018
> *Give up & buy an ethernet cable if there is a long distance between your router & the Tivo!!!
> *
> Like many others I cut the cord. Purchasing a Tivo Roamio (I really meant cut the cord) even though the price was much higher than the other type of units available. Surprisingly in spite of all the scary reviews it only took a couple of hours to get it working. It really does help to have them turn it on first! I must admit I cheated and connected to my wireless internet. I have had it for a couple of months and it has almost paid for itself in what I saved not paying Direct TV. But old urges die hard. I still want to be able to start a show in the living room and finish it in the bedroom later. So I read all the reviews and instructions. Mocha networking sounded easy after my initial fear and success with the Roamio. The wires from Direct TV were still in the walls and I was feeling confident. Ordering the bridge, POE & Mini Vox sounded appealing. It was one of the biggest mistakes in my life. The first weekend I spent two days crawling around on the floor and looking for wires that I finally isolated, made 3 calls to Tivo support and ordered another POE and 2 more splitters for the coax cable. Starting again this morning I connected everything the way the diagrams they sent said, but nothing worked again. I made 4 more calls to Tivo Support today. Each tech told me to do something different. On call 3 today I learned, you have to have an ethernet cable from the router to the Roamio for the Mocha to work. I went to the store to purchase a very long ethernet cable, and the Direct TV team was there in full force tempting me again. I held fast to this is going to work. Pity the poor kid trying to sell me Direct TV again. I ran the cable throwing it down the middle of the room and called Tivo Support again. This time I finally got an honest tech named Chris. He was extremely helpful. What they didn't tell me before, is if your router & Roamio are in different rooms you need two ethernet cables and two bridges to complete the "Mocha Loop". If I have to run two ethernet cables anyway, why not just run the ethernet from the router to the Tivo mini & only use one cable. Moving the one ethernet cable to the router and dragging it to the Mini at the other end of the house I plugged everything in and it works! The cable is still down the middle of my house. The store didn't have anything longer, so I ordered another from Amazon and it will be here on Wednesday. Fastening the cable to the baseboards can't be as difficult as my last two weekends. They had clips too and Amazon is issuing a credit for all the unneeded parts. Like I said, give up and buy the ethernet cable. They come in 150' lengths.


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## rcandsc

krkaufman said:


> Amazon reviews can be interesting reading. Also, TiVo Support can be just awful.


Mmmmm, mocha...


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