# TiVo stability and tied to contract



## dunnel (Jan 21, 2005)

I am one of the unlucky ones who has yet to be called offering me one. I was really looking forward to getting one but after reading a number of posts about frequent reboots I am now quite concerned. One of the best features of the S1 compared to say Sky is it's stability, it hardly ever needed a reboot. I know that software updates may cure certain issues over time but I don't want to end up with a box that I have to keep rebooting and being tied to an 18 month contract (correct me if it is a different duration). My sky hd box has it's moments and I would say over 10 months I have probably had to restart it maybe every 2 months on average. I would hope that the TiVo would match or better this.*
I am just concerned that I may get stuck with a machine and not able to get out of it.*
Is this one of the reasons for delays in getting the machines out. I recently spoke to VM as I was told (via email) that I would be getting one in March but they said they were having problem and there would be a delay. Has anyone any news or can put my mind at rest about the multiple reboots.*


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## howardmicks (Feb 13, 2011)

It as its problems but they are only minor,I suspect vm/tivo will do a update before official launch(heard rumours this week).I am very impressed with mine and you after except problems if you recieve before official release date,All in all its a superb product which will get better with time


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## geekspeak (Oct 1, 2002)

dunnel said:


> I don't want to end up with a box that I have to keep rebooting and being tied to an 18 month contract (correct me if it is a different duration).


As far as I am concerned if a company does not provide the service that you would reasonably expect to receive and are unable or unwilling to put it right, then a contract is irrelevant and deemed null and void should I so wish.

That said my experience of ntl/virgin media is that when it comes down to it retentions will eventually do what needs to be done. I won't comment further on how I am still a customer with them and indeed have VM Tivo


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

geekspeak said:


> As far as I am concerned if a company does not provide the service that you would reasonably expect to receive and are unable or unwilling to put it right, then a contract is irrelevant and deemed null and void *should I so wish*.


You were doing so well until that last bit  Your "wishes" have nothing to do with it. However, you _are_ right that bad service should be enough to actually get you out of any contract


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

The contract is for 12 months - that's what our paper work says (see thread here), despite some talk of 18 month contracts at signup time.

@ carl - really, read it in context...


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

Mine has rebooted about 70 times in the last week, and during that time they've replaced both the box and the viewing card on different occasions.

At the moment I'd have to advise staying well away from them until they sort the stability problems out. When it can't complete a recording properly 90% of the time it ceases to serve it's purpose.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

mikerr said:


> @ carl - really, read it in context...


In any conext, wishes have nothing to do with anything. You are *legally* allowed to break a contract under certain circumstances, one of which is demonstably lousy servicel though that's not the legal term, of course 



richw said:


> At the moment I'd have to advise staying well away from them until they sort the stability problems out. When it can't complete a recording properly 90% of the time it ceases to serve it's purpose.


And yet mine is perfectly stable; having only re-booted once* and ruined two recordings, both of which were repeated within the week.

*And that might have been _my_ fault for over-loading it with RF commands 

The point being that, while I don't doubt that you - and some others - are having stability issues (which I hope can be resolved to your satisfaction) and I therefore understand your comments to "stay away", I'm sure you can see my POV that your comment is really nothing more than a sweeping generalisation assuming that all boxes must be having the same issues when clearly they are not.


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## laurence (Jun 17, 2007)

@Carl,
Context has everything to do with it!
My understanding (based on what he wrote), is that geekspeak says he is entitled to get out of the contract (if he wishes) should the service not be up to scratch.


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## dunnel (Jan 21, 2005)

I agree that a machine that crashes several times a day is totally unacceptable but do VM have to cancel the contract or are they allowed to swap the machine. I am sure that the contract would allow the supplier to resolve an issue but at what point does the suppliers chances run out.*
It isn't the box that crashes multiple times a day that I have the issue with as this to anybody would be unacceptable, it is the less frequent crash, once a week or once a fortnight. Anything more frequent than once a month would be unacceptable to me but what is considered acceptable in the contract.*
It seems that there are some that have Tivos that are fairly stable and others that are crashing multiple times a day. I am assuming that all are running the same version of software. I know that some my may be running different versions (e.g. Testing 3rd tuner) but these are probably not those posting on here. If the software is the same version then what is the cause of the issue. Do some Tivos contain different components, is it some sort of problem with a specific location. If not is too much expected from a software release to fix these issues when the problems don't seen to relate to a specific version of software therefore maybe not software related?
Some of the above are based on my assumptions so I would be interested in any more information that others have.*


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

cwaring said:


> The point being that, while I don't doubt that you - and some others - are having stability issues (which I hope can be resolved to your satisfaction) and I therefore understand your comments to "stay away", I'm sure you can see my POV that your comment is really nothing more than a sweeping generalisation assuming that all boxes must be having the same issues when clearly they are not.


I agree that I'm probably an unfortunate example, and my box did in fact work fairly well for the first fortnight. However given the seeming lack of ability of anyone at Virgin Media to resolve what is an on-going problem my advice to stay away would seem to be fairly sensible at the current time. It looks like there just isn't sufficient expertise within VM to deal with any problematic units/accounts at the moment. If it works great, if it doesn't you're screwed.

Much as I want to like VM and the new Tivo, a PVR which can't record programs properly is just an expensive waste of space.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> @Carl,
> Context has everything to do with it!
> My understanding (based on what he wrote), is that geekspeak says he is entitled to get out of the contract (if he wishes) should the service not be up to scratch.


Erm... yes, and I agreed with him. But it's still nothing to do with his wishes; it's legally-binding, or something like that. ie it's written into consumer law that he can do so.


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## sammyh25 (Feb 9, 2011)

My TiVo has rebooted once since getting it weeks ago, and was when I was bombarding it with IR commands, not sure if this was coincidence or not. I know it seems a few people are having a really tough time with their units but mine has been a joy to use. I think go into TiVo with an open mind, it's a great product and almost ready for the mass Market, but you may hit some issues just now, but for most they are minor niggles.

Rickw, you must have the patience of a Saint as I would have thrown the box into the street by now. I'm sure they will get to the bottom of the issue as VM must also be on a steep learning curve. Be interesting to see what the issue turns out to be in the end.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Erm... yes, and I agreed with him. But it's still nothing to do with his wishes; it's legally-binding, or something like that. ie it's written into consumer law that he can do so.


It's up to him whether he acts on that though, which is all he was saying re: wishes. If you're going to get incredibly picky on wording (which seems to be your style right now) then



> You are legally allowed to break a contract under certain circumstances


is a contradiction in terms; you can never be allowed to break a contract. There may be circumstances where the contract is deemed to no longer apply.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> And yet mine is perfectly stable; having only re-booted once* and ruined two recordings


Interesting definition of "prefectly stable" there. And you cliam not to be an apologist for VM.


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

sammyh25 said:


> Rickw, you must have the patience of a Saint as I would have thrown the box into the street by now.


It's very tempting 

At the moment the only real alternative is to go back to Sky, and their 1TB box is more expensive.

I'm going to give VM a few more days before cancelling the contract to see if they can fix it once and for all.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

sammyh25 said:


> My TiVo has rebooted once since getting it weeks ago, and was when I was bombarding it with IR commands, not sure if this was coincidence or not.


Seems likely...


cwaring said:


> *And that might have been _my_ fault for over-loading it with RF commands .





> I know it seems a few people are having a really tough time with their units but mine has been a joy to use. I think go into TiVo with an open mind, it's a great product and almost ready for the mass Market, but you may hit some issues just now, but for most they are minor niggles.


Agreed.



> Rickw, you must have the patience of a Saint as I would have thrown the box into the street by now.


Yeah, me too 



TCM2007 said:


> Interesting definition of "prefectly stable" there. And you cliam not to be an apologist for VM.


Compared to the one under discussion here that re-boots 25 times an hour or whatever it was then yes, mine is perfectly stable. Perhaps I should have used the word 'relatively' though.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Perhaps.


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cwaring said:


> Perhaps I should have used the word 'relatively' though.


cut everything up into sentences in order to pointlessly add "agreed"?


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Ahh, Stuart. Taking pedantry to the next level


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## sammyh25 (Feb 9, 2011)

richw said:


> It's very tempting
> 
> At the moment the only real alternative is to go back to Sky, and their 1TB box is more expensive.
> 
> I'm going to give VM a few more days before cancelling the contract to see if they can fix it once and for all.


Hopefully the team have picked it up on the VM Forum as well and they'll get it fixed for you with some lovely compensation!


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

sammyh25 said:


> Hopefully the team have picked it up on the VM Forum as well and they'll get it fixed for you with some lovely compensation!


You'd like to think so wouldn't you?

No reply on the VM forum since Friday, the engineer dealing with it can't get any updates on what they tell him is an account issue, and my complaint submitted via the website Saturday morning is yet to generate any response.


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

I've now been told to wait until at least Thursday for the new software update.


I can save them the trouble, my contract will almost certainly be cancelled by then, I'm not prepared to put up with a non-functioning box for what will be nearly a fortnight. I still can't even get a V+ box to replace my V box just to tide me over.


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## nbaker (Sep 28, 2002)

I've not noticed any reboots myself


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## sammyh25 (Feb 9, 2011)

richw said:


> I've now been told to wait until at least Thursday for the new software update.
> 
> I can save them the trouble, my contract will almost certainly be cancelled by then, I'm not prepared to put up with a non-functioning box for what will be nearly a fortnight. I still can't even get a V+ box to replace my V box just to tide me over.


Have they said what your issue is and why the software update will fix it? Or are they just hedging their bets?


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

sammyh25 said:


> Have they said what your issue is and why the software update will fix it? Or are they just hedging their bets?


Apparently it's "a known issue" and will be fixed in the next software release.

I'm probably tempting fate, but so far it's looks like it's not rebooted for 20 hours.


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

nbaker said:


> I've not noticed any reboots myself


What do you want, a medal?


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## sammyh25 (Feb 9, 2011)

richw said:


> Apparently it's "a known issue" and will be fixed in the next software release.
> 
> I'm probably tempting fate, but so far it's looks like it's not rebooted for 20 hours.


Just noticed on the VM forum one of the staff agrees with you that Thu is not good enough and has asked you for account details etc so they can escalate the issue. Might be worth giving it a go.


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## nbaker (Sep 28, 2002)

richw said:


> What do you want, a medal?


Yes please 

Just wanted to show that not all boxes are having issues.


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

Sent my details across earlier, just waiting for a response.


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## sammyh25 (Feb 9, 2011)

richw said:


> Sent my details across earlier, just waiting for a response.


Keeping my fingers crossed m8, it is a good piece of kit, just wish you had the chance to experience it.


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

It was great for the first two weeks, then it all went a bit wrong


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## FemiH (Nov 6, 2002)

richw said:


> It was great for the first two weeks, then it all went a bit wrong


And I gather you've been given a new box, viewing card and the problem persists? It's got to be something else other than the box, its frustrating reading this as an IT person albeit in a different field so goodness knows what its like for the ppl living with the gazillion reboots per week. From a Customer Service standpoint I've found the @virginmedia Twitter team to be in a different league from the general Customer Service personnel.

I had to deal with Customer Services to receive a new "Superhub" recently and suffice to say it was a process I don't want to have to repeat. I complained to two separate managers on two separate occasions for the lack of customer care and they both just gave the "nothing we can do" line as if they didn't care whether I was about to cancel the entire service or not . Virgin must improve its customer services or else really, I don't care how great the new Tivo is (for most of us who are fortunate enough to not be blighted by the reboot problems etc. it's just great) as the vast majority of people can get Sky in this country and a significant minority cannot get Virgin so they are fighting a tough battle albeit with some great weapons (Tivo :up: being one of them IMHO).

Good luck and I hope your able to get a working Tivo and some sort of recompense for what sounds like an unpleasant "guinea pig" experience.


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

FemiH said:


> And I gather you've been given a new box, viewing card and the problem persists? It's got to be something else other than the box


You can't rule out the possibility of two faulty boxes. However it's been stable for the last 22 hours or so, despite absolutely nothing changing at this end, and nothing happening at the other end according to what the engineer has been told.


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## Digital Fanatic (Feb 16, 2011)

richw said:


> You can't rule out the possibility of two faulty boxes. However it's been stable for the last 22 hours or so, despite absolutely nothing changing at this end, and nothing happening at the other end according to what the engineer has been told.


Sorry to hear this has been happening Rich. Have the team been unable to pin point the cause?


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

Digital Fanatic said:


> Sorry to hear this has been happening Rich. Have the team been unable to pin point the cause?


Thursday they thought it was a card pairing issue so got the engineer to replace the card. Friday they thought it was an account issue so got him to tell me to wait until today. Today they think it'll be fixed by the new software release on Thursday.

"Clutching at straws" springs to mind


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## laurence (Jun 17, 2007)

cwaring said:


> Erm... yes, and I agreed with him. But it's still nothing to do with his wishes; it's legally-binding, or something like that. ie it's written into consumer law that he can do so.


You really are full of [email protected] lately Carl. You know perfectly well what he meant.


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## Digital Fanatic (Feb 16, 2011)

richw said:


> Thursday they thought it was a card pairing issue so got the engineer to replace the card. Friday they thought it was an account issue so got him to tell me to wait until today. Today they think it'll be fixed by the new software release on Thursday.
> 
> "Clutching at straws" springs to mind




Is it still stable now? I think the techs are going through everything one by one and eliminating anything that could be causing it... I'm guessing your power levels are spot on?

BTW, it sounds like you've been very patient. I'm sure VM appreciate that. I hope it gets sorted for you mate.


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

Digital Fanatic said:


> Is it still stable now? I think the techs are going through everything one by one and eliminating anything that could be causing it... I'm guessing your power levels are spot on?


Only one reboot since Saturday evening that I can spot, although I'm not aware of anything having been done to fix it, and neither was the engineer from what he's been told.

Power levels were stable at 47whatsits at installation, when the box was replaced, and again when the card was replaced. Both engineers who've been on site recently stuck a meter on the line and pronounced it fine.


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## andyfoxccp (Apr 8, 2004)

Surely the logs within the Tivo give some indication as to why it is rebooting OR a diagnostic mode can be enabled to do so. Have they considered a recable to your house yet?
Are you very close to the distribution cabinet or a long way away - I have problems from time to time with the older V+ box with picture break up , and last engineer realised it was because too high signal because the distribution box is almost outside house, so where previous engs had been removing attenuators he put in a much bigger one and to date has been much better, and seems to be a stable Tivo install as well.


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

No idea where the cabinet is, which probably means it isn't very close. Signal levels are apparently spot on. 

The broadband comes in to the house on the same cable before it's split and that's perfectly stable. According to the engineer you'd see more signal drops and loss of picture if the cabling was bad, rather than out and out reboots.


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

Still rebooting, just not as often. Tonight it rebooted during No Ordinary Family losing 5 minutes or so.

I'm going for one last ditch attempt to get something sorted before the end of the 28 day get-out clause in the contract on Friday. I don't want to have to go back to Sky, but if needs must...


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## geekspeak (Oct 1, 2002)

richw said:


> Still rebooting, just not as often. Tonight it rebooted during No Ordinary Family losing 5 minutes or so.
> 
> I'm going for one last ditch attempt to get something sorted before the end of the 28 day get-out clause in the contract on Friday. I don't want to have to go back to Sky, but if needs must...


Just a couple of quick thoughts. Is Tivo in a well ventilated area (not too warm) and not close to any wifi routers or DECT phone transmitters and any low-energy light bulbs pointing at it? Probably not and won't help you but never know? Also when they swapped the box, did they also swap the power supply brick or use the same one?


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

It's fairly well ventilated in a rack, there's a DECT phone and the SuperHub nearby, but that's because that's where the engineer put the sockets. It's just as likely to reboot when the lights are off, and it's certainly not related to calls on the phone 'cos no-one ever rings me 

I don't think they replaced the power brick when they replaced the box though, so that's a possibility.

They seem fixated on it being an account problem at the moment.


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

See if you can get them to agree to extending you 28 day cooling off period in view of your problems


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

Apparently they now know what the problem with my Tivo is, and I should have had a message earlier today telling me more. Nothing as yet though. 

I've really ought to muster up the enthusiasm to check if it's rebooted again since this morning or not.


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