# Any thoughts on what the TiVo series 4 will hold?



## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

hmm. HD-DVD? Blue Ray? Movie downloads? Direct plug in for transfers to apple ipod or other portable video players?


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## cpucrash0 (Sep 15, 2002)

BlackBetty said:


> hmm. HD-DVD? Blue Ray? Movie downloads? Direct plug in for transfers to apple ipod or other portable video players?


They just released series 3. I think first they have to add more features to the series 3 before they start making a series 4.


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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

cpucrash0 said:


> They just released series 3. I think first they have to add more features to the series 3 before they start making a series 4.


Adding more features would be second, they need to fix the current bugs first.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Adding a burner wouldn't warrant calling it the S4. They added a burner to the S2, and they still called it an S2. That integration can be accomplished via software, only. 

I think the S4 will be to address the follow-on to CC1.0, whatever that may be.


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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

bicker said:


> Adding a burner wouldn't warrant calling it the S4.


Nobody said it would.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Absolutely no Apple device integration, please. Or any other portable media player.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

mick66 said:


> Nobody said it would.


I believe that was one of the things BlackBetty was suggesting.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I'm still dreaming they can make the current S3's 2-way cablecard compatible (I know it's a huge long shot- there's a tiny bit of hope some chip can hold the doscis modem needed but looks like there's no way to get a firewire port to comply with the spec...)

beyond that I would hope they can tweak the current s3 hardware to be 2-way, maybe call it an S3-2w or something. 

But if they need to rework the whole doodah for 2-way then I'd guess that would be the s4.

There's still no TiVo brand box that has a dvd of anysort- correct? THose are cheap and simple at this point and they made the reference design for the others so they know how to make those now. Yet for whatever reason it's not their thing. So I dont see them adding a blue laser reader or writer anytime soon if ever.... JMHO

Maybe a third party vendor gets involved for hd disc Tivo's but you would have to expect it to be a company that markets itself as the high end. Sony seems done with Tivo. Pioneer seems done. Is Toshiba done too? I dont see humax as being the top end to market such a thing...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I think the recorders part gives them some formatting heartburn but adding in a DVD plyer only that used the TiVo interface would be awesome :up: and making it an HD version would be a big selling point to reducing boxes needed for people. Of ourse right now you have to gamble on the format to pick and all of the HD DVD stuff is expensive for an already expensive S3. 
I think DVD would come to the S4 and not the S3 due to that. I would buy a Sereis 2 DT with plain old DVD playback now :up: 


the S4 will be whatever the industry finally settles on for two way communication and may well have nothing to do with cable cards


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

BlackBetty said:


> hmm. HD-DVD? Blue Ray? Movie downloads? Direct plug in for transfers to apple ipod or other portable video players?


Time-ports you back to the original broadcast so you can see the show when it was actually aired.

None of this old-fashioned "make a recording and watch it later" stuff.


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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

bicker said:


> I believe that was one of the things BlackBetty was suggesting.


The title of the thread is "Any thoughts on what the TiVo series 4 will hold?" not "What features will make a series 4 a series 4?"

BlackBetty suggested a possible feature, not a defining feature.


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## GadgetGav (Dec 11, 2001)

There won't be a Series 4. Tivo will move to a software licencing model and sell their software to Cable Cos. The hardware development costs of the S3 must have been huge and it will all be for nothing if and when the Cable Cos move to CC2... Let Moto make the hardware, let the Cable Cos deliver the content and let Tivo make the UI.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I'm sure that's what they would love, but we'll see if they can get the cable compnaies to see it their way...


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

GadgetGav said:


> There won't be a Series 4. Tivo will move to a software licencing model and sell their software to Cable Cos. The hardware development costs of the S3 must have been huge and it will all be for nothing if and when the Cable Cos move to CC2... Let Moto make the hardware, let the Cable Cos deliver the content and let Tivo make the UI.


I agree completely. I doubt there will be ever be an S4. Making hardware for small quantities of subscribers is a losing game. Tivo has to get away from making hardware to stay in business. Eventually I think you will only see Tivo software as an option for both the PC Media Center and cable boxes.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> I agree completely. I doubt there will be ever be an S4. Making hardware for small quantities of subscribers is a losing game. Tivo has to get away from making hardware to stay in business. Eventually I think you will only see Tivo software as an option for both the PC Media Center and cable boxes.


the cable companies would actually probably love to see the customers shell out their own 500$ for a DVR box, especially if the box can hook into some standard way to obtain VOD and PPV from the cable company.


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## srs (Jun 23, 2000)

The only thing we know for sure is that it will have a $1000 price tag.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

GadgetGav said:


> Tivo will move to a software licencing model and sell their software to Cable Cos. The hardware development costs of the S3 must have been huge and it will all be for nothing if and when the Cable Cos move to CC2.


I think your first point is a possibility. However CC2 are backwards compatible, so even when they are widely released the S3 will continue to do what it does (with 2 cards, either CC1 or CC2) - we just won't be able to get VOD from the cable company.

Personally, I'd like to see either Bluray and HDDVD support added next year though it'll probably be two years before we see anything like that -- especially with the extra time CableLabs certification adds to the dev process.

I'm also sooooo ready for VOD and WPA. I can understand VOD taking time to work out the technical and relationship issues, but there's no excuse for not offering WPA.

A S3 Lite or S2 HD Pro must be in the works for the lower-end market, right?


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## Meep (Jun 13, 2004)

You have to be kidding. I can't see Tivo releasing a 4th box after losing a ton of customers due to the latest software UPGRADE. Tivo has shown it just doesn't care.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

My guess is that the series 4 will be encoded to hold the secret to the meaning of life.........

by the way, the pass code to get the information out of the box, will be 4 8 15 16 23 42


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

S3.5 first:

Full CC2.0 bi-directional capability

Integrated MPEG4 chipset, to reduce cost (instead of a separate MPEG4 chip as it apparently has)

Universal IPTV capable.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

classicsat said:


> S3.5 first:
> 
> Full CC2.0 bi-directional capability
> 
> ...


ya know I missed that- i thought this was the broadcom chip with the mpeg2/4 built in. Lately posts seem to say it's the same chip as the HR10-250 and I never put 2+2 together to realize there must be another mpeg4 chip someplace....


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Meep said:


> You have to be kidding. I can't see Tivo releasing a 4th box after losing a ton of customers due to the latest software UPGRADE. Tivo has shown it just doesn't care.


You know I can well understand the frustration over 7.3.1 slowing down series 2 boxes. Hopefully you can appreciate the supreme irony of injecting that into a discussion of hardware, especially since the hardware comes with 8.x version of software that doesnt seem to have any such issue.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> You know I can well understand the frustration over 7.3.1 slowing down series 2 boxes. Hopefully you can appreciate the supreme irony of injecting that into a discussion of hardware, especially since the hardware comes with 8.x version of software that doesnt seem to have any such issue.


The stereotypical troll is often in need of a diet, not more feeding.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

More DRM.
Higher Price
Bigger HD
Non-upgradable
More disposeable


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

how much more drm can they add beyond CCI and macrovision?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> how much more drm can they add beyond CCI and macrovision?


They can restrict HDMI output from DVR's. You'll get a pretty little message on the set that this program is restricted form being viewed using HD. You'll have to use the component inputs on the set with the DVR.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> They can restrict HDMI output from DVR's. You'll get a pretty little message on the set that this program is restricted form being viewed using HD. You'll have to use the component inputs on the set with the DVR.


I believe that's already there from the CCI flags. There's threads here about it already happening.

My point is- I think we are as bad as it gets- everything already can be resticted out the ying yang at this point- they cant make it any worse.

They already can restrict copying ananlog content via macrovision. They already can restict digital content copies via CCI flags. They already can restirct digital outputs via HDCP and CCI flags. They already can make things self destruct- analog via macrovision or digital by CCI. They The only next step is not allowing you to watch at all in the first place.

Everything is already locked down like fort knox- unless someone defeats one of the current things then I dont think they need to create any new DRM crap- since it's already impossible to do anything with teh content if they want to flip the flags that way..


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> I believe that's already there from the CCI flags. There's threads here about it already happening.
> 
> My point is- I think we are as bad as it gets- everything already can be resticted out the ying yang at this point- they cant make it any worse.
> 
> ...


I believe the current issues with HDCP involve particular pieces of hardware, not the actual signal. However given the fact that people will find a way around issues that keep them from doing what they want, so to will the content providers come up with new ways to make life difficult. Possibly require a PIN everytime you watch a show to make certain a recording device isn't present in the loop. They've gone this far in their paranoia, why not a bit further?

Basically, we can't trust that content providers will have our best interests in mind with every decision they make, and by extension neither will TiVo.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

If I understand correctly- the hardware in question isn't negotiating HDCP correctly and the flag says lock down digital inputs that dont have HDCP. So the flag is doing it.

I think you're a little harsh on tivo- what are they to do. IN order to get cablelabs approved they must comply with the licensing agreements and they say tivo has to abide by macrovision and CCI flags (And I think macrovision is a law that all recording devices need to obey at this point anyway). So tivo can follow the rules and be allowed to sell a product. Not sell the product. Or spend huge resources and years and years trying to sue to get the flag provisions overturned by some court- which is highly unlikely - and even if possible they would likely go belly up in the process. So what are they supposed to do?

COntent providers need to get over themselves. You think they would look at the software industry and learn from that. People find ways around all those methods and all they do is piss of legit consumers in the process. 

enter a PIN- seems a little over the top, but who knows.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> If I understand correctly- the hardware in question isn't negotiating HDCP correctly and the flag says lock down digital inputs that dont have HDCP. So the flag is doing it.
> 
> I think you're a little harsh on tivo- what are they to do. IN order to get cablelabs approved they must comply with the licensing agreements and they say tivo has to abide by macrovision and CCI flags (And I think macrovision is a law that all recording devices need to obey at this point anyway). So tivo can follow the rules and be allowed to sell a product. Not sell the product. Or spend huge resources and years and years trying to sue to get the flag provisions overturned by some court- which is highly unlikely - and even if possible they would likely go belly up in the process. So what are they supposed to do?
> 
> ...


Last time I checked Macrovision wasn't included in any laws. Maybe in a contract that stated to do X you must have Macrovision or we won't give you permission. The simple fact is that DRM is out of control in this country and soon we won't be able to read a book or listen to a song, or watch a TV show without having to pay for it each time.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> Last time I checked Macrovision wasn't included in any laws. Maybe in a contract that stated to do X you must have Macrovision or we won't give you permission. The simple fact is that DRM is out of control in this country and soon we won't be able to read a book or listen to a song, or watch a TV show without having to pay for it each time.


The whole DRM issue is a mess for sure.

I am not positive about the macrovision thing, but i do remember one past june there was a huge deal becasue that was the end of being able to buy a go video DVD/vcr combo that didn't respect macrovision. I thought it was some law or regulation that forced them to include it on all devices going forward.

After some quick google searching-

I cant find the text of the law but it seems that 1201(k) of the Copyright Act was ammended to REQUIRE macrovision on analog recording devices. Search google for "macrovision 1201(k) of the Copyright Act" and you'll nail numerous references incluiding this one:
http://www.house.gov/list/press/ca28_berman/BroadcastFlag.html
from some congressman who's proud he got it included.

I'm not sure but it loks like it was part of everyones beloved DMCA...

So macrovision is required and there is nothing TiVo or anyone else can do legally to avoid it.

Give it time- they'll probbaly make the CCI thing for cable a law too (if it isn't already...).

And as we all know the content people are trying to get the flags mandated for ATSC.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> The whole DRM issue is a mess for sure.
> 
> I am not positive about the macrovision thing, but i do remember one past june there was a huge deal becasue that was the end of being able to buy a go video DVD/vcr combo that didn't respect macrovision. I thought it was some law or regulation that forced them to include it on all devices going forward.
> 
> ...


So, either we will be seeing a resurgence in the VCR or people will actually take a stand and get their congress people to do something about it.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> So, either we will be seeing a resurgence in the VCR or people will actually take a stand and get their congress people to do something about it.


I believe that in a few years, no devices will "talk" to an analog device any longer. All the outputs will be protected and the "analog loophole" will finally be closed.

Just remember that these are the folks who claimed they were only against people making perfect digital copies. They claimed analog was OK because every iteration was of degraded quality. Funny how they won't use the phrase "analog loophole" in public.

They are slowly boiling us to death.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

bmgoodman said:


> I believe that in a few years, no devices will "talk" to an analog device any longer. All the outputs will be protected and the "analog loophole" will finally be closed.
> 
> Just remember that these are the folks who claimed they were only against people making perfect digital copies. They claimed analog was OK because every iteration was of degraded quality. Funny how they won't use the phrase "analog loophole" in public.
> 
> They are slowly boiling us to death.


The more I read about DRM and see it's effects the angrier I get. Who was it that said if we sacrifice our freedoms for a little security....?


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

ashu said:


> Absolutely no Apple device integration, please. Or any other portable media player.


?? I have this on my 360 and it's great....


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

made me scratch my head too...


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

The more devices you try to support, the more support issues you raise in case their implementation of PlaysForSure or the Apple interface (Rendezvous?) isn't consistent.

Of course, for a Linux system (TiVo) to support Apple toys/iPods etc might be easier, because they use Rendezvous already, but still ... more clueless rabid fans of one or the other side jumping in and making a noise about some tiny nuance not working is avoidable 

Case in point ... wireless USB network adapters. The Ethernet port is the single best feature of the DT, after, ya know, the 2nd T


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

i guess that makes some sense but why should we not get a new feature becasue of the nugget heads of the world...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

According to a recent FCC filing TiVo spent more then $12,000,000 in R&D developing the S3 units. So I'm guessing that platform is going to be around for a while. I'm hoping that a year or so from now we'll see a S3 unit with a built in HD-DVD/BluRay player. (recorders are still a ways off and prohibitively expensive) I don't really care when they get around to supporting CableCARD 2.0. I don't use VOD very much anyway, and my local cable company doesn't have any plans to go to SDV. So the S3 unit does pretty much everything I need. 

Dan


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dan can you aim me to that filing- I'd love to see what other tidbits are in it.

thanks


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> i guess that makes some sense but why should we not get a new feature becasue of the *nugget heads* of the world...


Hey, now ... no need to get personal! That photo was taken almost a decade ago!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ROFL-

i didn;t notice that you resembled that remark!

very funny!


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ashu said:


> Hey, now ... no need to get personal! That photo was taken almost a decade ago!


I thought that was a diaper head.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> dan can you aim me to that filing- I'd love to see what other tidbits are in it.


Second sentence ...

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518491596

It's mainly an opposition to Charter's application for a waiver of the integration ban for "limited functionality" devices ... goes hand in hand with Tivo's filing opposing Verizon's application for a waiver of the integration ban for all devices ...

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518491587


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

thanks


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## jeffhanson1 (Dec 6, 2007)

Tivo Series 4 represents what cable should be - OPEN. You should be able to access the services you are paying for and not be tied into the cable company's box. The greedy cable companies have the nerve to make it so you have to keep renting a box in order to get those features despite losing customers to satellite. 

Open Cable represents what home telephone service is today. You no longer have to rent or buy the phone company's home phone to get all the same features the phone service offers.

Not to mention the new SDV cable technology will be built in to the Series 4. No need to buy a tuning resolver and add equipment to the outside of the current units. This is the ultimate solution to all the current issues with cable. Tivo is just responding to these needs. Technology changes so equipment changes. Lets face it - the CableCard solution was unfortunately not the answer either. We know it has limitations and issues.

Thank goodness Tivo has a big enough name for itself along with some help from the FCC to help make cable truly open from the standpoint of being able to access the services you pay for without their equipment.

I was going to get a Tivo HD but I will hold off and continue using the cable company's box until Tivo Series 4 arrives. If Tivo offers the lifetime service, they can consider it sold.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

I just want it to make toast and iron my clothes.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

jeffhanson1 said:


> The greedy cable companies have the nerve to make it so you have to keep renting a box in order to get those features despite losing customers to satellite.


Missing from your tirade was your outrage at the satellite companies who *completely refuse to allow you to use your own equipment with their service*.



jeffhanson1 said:


> Not to mention the new SDV cable technology will be built in to the Series 4.


I think you are reading way too much into this, and your expectations for what the TiVo Series 4 will be are unreasonable. For all we know now, it will NOT do half a dozen things that you'll be expecting it to do (like it may not allow you to record SDV programming).



jeffhanson1 said:


> I was going to get a Tivo HD but I will hold off and continue using the cable company's box until Tivo Series 4 arrives.


That seems ill-advised, since there is no good reason to believe that the S4 will arrive anytime soon. Even if TiVo eventually makes a promise for a release date, promises are cheap. Don't get excited until you see beta testing going on.



jeffhanson1 said:


> If Tivo offers the lifetime service, they can consider it sold.


I wouldn't be so sure. At that point, its limitations will be clearer. I'll probably buy one, but I'm not so sure about you.


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