# Ultimate Wireless Network



## vlxjim

Just to let you folks know you can get real time transfers in best quality. I just setup two TiVo 2 80Hr with two of the Linksys USB200M USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapters, each hooked to a Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter (works just like the WET54G Wireless-G Ethernet Bridge but cost less and in a different case for the gaming market). Routed by a Linksys WRT54G Wireless-G Broadband Router. The high gain antenna on the WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter get a much better signal than the WUSB11. I get 100% on singal and link with this setup with both TiVo's 75+ feet from the router (one up stairs one down stairs). I now have a 54G network the TiVo's USB port is now the bottle neck. I can now watch in real time the transfer of best quality video. Watching a two hour movie in best quality is no problem. And the Med. quality transfers are three to four time as fast.

I hope this helps some of you out.

Jim


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## Kindred

Curious about the antenna, can you describe it? Is it optional or directly connected to the 'box'? Don't both ends need the signal boost? Are they directional? If so, how do you handle the receiving ends being in different locations (I'm assuming that they are in different directions?)

Just curious....

Thanks

Jack


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## vlxjim

The antenna is on the unit and about 6-7 inchs long. The WGA54G is a transceiver so a higher gain antenna is going to improve the transmit as well as the receive. In other words it talks louder and hears better. You can see it on the linksys web site.


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## Kindred

THanks for the reply. I will go over to thier site and check it out. Is it directional or omni-directional?

Jack


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## nodefect

I just posted this question. Can you transfer video back to the PC from the Tivo box and burn it on the PC's DVD burner?


The manager at Circuit City told me to go with the Microsoft B Router and adapter because he said the Linksys does not work very well with the Directv/Tivo box. Is that true? I noticed that the Mircrosoft G router is available, but the antena is not out yet. The manager told me that Tivo cannot benefit from the G speed, so why pay the extra money? he said.


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## bedelman

As far as I know, the USB ports on the DirecTivo boxes are disabled.


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## Kindred

No you can't route the video back to the PC and the TiVo does not (at this time) support the g type router, so to speak. You can look back at some of the older inquiries and find that it will talk to some extent, but since you are talking on a USB 1.1 device, your speed is really constrained. If you want your greatest speed, hardwire the devices!

Jack


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## SafariKC

Can anyone confirm this? I don't see how this could actually speed things up unless Tivo has activated the USB2.0 capiblity of the ports. vlxjim: what is the Software version on your Tivos? Have you noticed the same transfer speed if you just run a cable between the 2 Ethernet ports on the USB200M's w/o the wireless?


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## vlxjim

The antennas, are omni-directional

With this type of setup TiVo supports the wireless G. Using the USB200M Network Adapters TiVo thinks it is hard wired to a 100Mb network but the hard wire is really two WGA54G Wireless-G Ethernet Bridges that talk at 54Mbs not as fast as the 100Mb hard wire but faster than the TiVo's USB 1.1 port (12Mbs max). Wireless B is 11Mbs but for most 5-6 Mbs were wireless G is 54Mbs most will see 22-25 Mbs with transfer errors or interference you can see why having this type of wireless network is so good and if TiVo get a USB 2.0 Driver some day your all set, it will then tranfer 4-5x faster than real time in best.

In the video transfer world network speed is the key. As long as you can transfer data faster than Tivo you won't get data drop outs. The TiVo USB 1.1 port is just enught to play best quality in real time. But the network has to keep up, and wirless B can't keep up nor can a 10Mbs hard wire network. You need wireless G or 100Mbs hard wire. At this time with USB1.1 (12Mbs) wireless G or 100Mbs hard wire work just the same but if USB 2.0 (400Mbs) drivers come out 100Mbs will be 46+Mbs faster than G.


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## Kindred

Jim...

Just what I was figuring out! Thanks for the reply to straighting it out for me concisely! Now it is clear...
I looked at the description over at the ad and found it very useful. The ant is Omidirectional so it works in all directions witch is great for your situation, but not too good for mine! hang in there and keep up with the reports they help, they are of great help!!!!

Thanks again!!!

Jack


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## ggfox

> _Originally posted by vlxjim _
> *Just to let you folks know you can get real time transfers in best quality. I just setup two TiVo 2 80Hr with two of the Linksys USB200M USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapters, each hooked to a Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter .... *


Hmm....

If the drivers on the TiVos are only USB 1.1, wouldn't that limit the transfer in/out of the TiVo unit's USB ports to the theoretical 12Mbps regardless of the 54Mbps link between the 2 WGA54G units using the bridge setup?

Wouldn't 2.0 drivers be needed for this to work at the desired 54mbps speed all the way through?

Just wondering how this all works..
TIA,
George


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## bedelman

802.11g would rarely reach the theoretical maximum of 54Mb/sec

For one, if there's an access point involved and you're going wireless to wireless you lose half your throughput right off the bat.

802.11g also slows down the farther away you are.

The same issues also occur with 802.11b.

The normal throughput of an 802.11b network ends up being between 2Mbs and 5.5Mbs for a wireless to wireless connection. With 802.11g I would imagine that the best you'll see in normal situations is somewhere around 20-25Mbs.

This is still faster than USB 1.1's limit of 12Mbs but it's not as far off as you might think by just looking at the numbers.


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## ggfox

Hi,

I understand theoretical -vs- actual speeds. That's was not the point of my post... What I am trying to get at is the fact that the bottleneck in the setup suggested by "vlxjim" (54mbps bridge) is the USB port/driver on the TiVo unit. Thus regardless of how fast your data flies over wireless, the TiVo I/O throughput on its USB ports is limited to what the port/drivers support: USB 1.1 (12mbps). I think his solution does not do much but improve performance just notch over regular 802.11b (11mbps). I don't think the TiVos communicate at speeds beyond what USB 1.1 supports: 12mbps.

This is the way I am looking at it. You just have to follow the chain of devices and their "speeds" under this type of setup:

1. TiVo phys. USB 2.0 port + TiVo USB 1.1 driver = USB 1.1 virutal port = 12mbps max speed (theoretical)

2. Linksys USB200M 10/100 USB-Ethernet + virtual USB 1.1 port (above) = Linksys "fast speed mode" (not "high speed 54mbps mode" per documentation) = 12 mbps transfer rate (theoretical).

3. Linksys WGA54G 54mbps bridge + Linksys USB200M in "fast speed mode" = 12 mbps transfer rate (lower denominator of both devices).

4. Linksys WGA54G 54mbps bridge + Linksys WGA54G 54mbps bridge = 54mbps wireless transfer rate (theoretical)

If I am correct on this, you can see that from point #1, the bottleneck is the USB 1.1 driver built-in to the TiVo. Regardless if your unit has an USB 2.0 port, as long as the driver is 1.1, you can only get 12mbps (theo).

Thus, no matter how fast your data flies over the wireless link (point #4, the two Game bridges), it will only go through (in and out) the TiVo USB port at no more than the supported theoretical speed (12mbps) because of the USB 1.1 driver, and the fact that the Linksys USB200M adapter will only switch to 12mpbs (not 100mbps) when connected to a USB 1.1 port/driver (point #2). The lowest common denominator in this chain is the USB 1.1 driver, so the data will never pass through it faster than its capacity.

However, I do think this setup does improve transfer a little over standard 802.11b adapters. Since the actual (not theoretical) speeds of the 802.11b setup will be definately much less than 11mbps, and the 54mpbs bridge setup should pipe data faster to the USB port, which may then process it closer or perhaps even faster than 11mbps but always less than the max 12mbps supported by the TiVo port (theo). ... but I don't know that this type of performance improvement is worth the extra $$.

Perhaps someone with a hacked TiVo unit can actually run some benchmarks on these scenarios. .. ?

I think until we get USB 2.0 drivers on the Tivo Series 2, this setup will not work at full capacity all the way through the chain of devices. On a side note, it should work on TiVo Series 1 with the TurboNET 100mbps ethernet card in place of the Linksys USB200M USB adapter. Since then you will not have the USB 1.1 port bottleneck, and your slowest device would be the 54mbps bridge (802.11g!)

Regards,
George


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## pcar1947

I am intrigued by your solution. I have a TIVO 80 Hour hooked to Linksys WUSB-12. I have just orderd a Pioneer PRDVR810H and would like to include this in my network. I run a Linksys Wireless -G network in the house hooked to 4 computers and one Tivo Device. Do you see any issues in implementing your solution, other than cost ? I believe I have to dump the WUSB-12 adapter?
I believe I need to order these parts?

2 Linksys USB200M USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapters
2 Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter 

My Router is located in an upstairs office and the Pioneer will be in the basement. Will this be an issue?

In other words could you draw me a installation Map?

Thanks in Advance for any reponse.


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## pcar1947

In your humble opinion is it worth it to implement "vlxjim solution"? Or do you see a better long tem soluton? Keep in mind I like his solution.


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## ggfox

> _Originally posted by pcar1947 _
> *In your humble opinion is it worth it to implement "vlxjim solution"? Or do you see a better long tem soluton? Keep in mind I like his solution. *


Hi pcar1947,

Well, assuming what I've read is correct in that while TiVo Series 2 have physical USB 2.0 ports, but only USB 1.1 drivers for them. Then the quick answer is no.

If the driver's on the TiVo's are still v1.1, then the USB 2 port will only work at that spec, which supports up to 12mbps of throughput (theoretical). Being that the case, then the ports are the bottleneck in the chain of devices suggested by the solution proposed by vlxjim. So no matter how fast the 802.11g or Ethernet devices communicate (54mbps / 100mbps theo.), they can get or send data to the TiVos at the speed the TiVo ports support (12mbps theo.)

While I do think vlxjim's solution will improve performance a little, I don't think its worth the extra $$$ bucks it will cost to get all four devices in question (two USB2 10/100 adapters, and the 802.11g game bridges).

The speed difference between the supported (and cheaper) wireless solution of 802.11b at 11mbps -vs- the virtual USB 1.1 ports at 12mbps is not that big, even after accounting for the actual -vs- theoretical speeds. Although I believe other factors could make this speed difference better (greater) under certain circumstances, but that's for someone with the setups in place to benchmark.

It all boils down to a simple analogy... Its like having a 54-lane highway full of cars all heading to the same exit which is only 12-lane wide. No matter how fast traffic was on the highway, you get a big slowdown at the exit due to congestion.

I think until we get new USB 2.0 software driver updates for our TiVO units we will not be able to do high-speed (> 12mbps) through the USB ports on the units. Anybody got any info on when this might happen?  .. or better yet, has this already happened and I am still in the dark  ???

Now, if you have a TiVo Series 1 with a TurboNet 100mbps card, then I think the solution proposed by vlxjim would work well. But unfortunately Home Media Option is not available for Series 1, and the only advantage of this solution for Series 1 would be connecting a hacked unit to a PC over high-speed wireless for transfering recordings, doing backups, etc.

Regards,
George


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## vlxjim

The gain that you will get is not only in better transfer rates but in much better singal and link strength.The WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter get a much better signal and link strength than the WUSB11, I have used and tested both, and can tell you that I can pick up three other wireless B networks in my neighborhood with the WGA54G. Plus even if you only get 20Mbs do to transfer errors, interference or bad signal and link strength it is still faster than the wireless B network. This is important if you want to transfer and play in Best quality in real time. Or you don't want to slow down your wireless G network. Forget the USB 1.1 as long as you can transfer data faster than Tivo you won't get data drop outs and wirless B can't keep up were a wireless G network can. 

This is not over kill I can watch a little faster than real time the transfer of best quality video. I just select a movie from the now playing on the other tivo hit play now and start watching the movie there is no waiting and after about 10 or 15 min. I can start to pass through the commercials. This is like the performance of a hardwired network. I don't know of anyone that can do this with wireless B. Like I said before if TiVo get us USB 2.0 drivers I'll be setup I will then tranfer 4-5x faster than real time in best quality. 

And don't forget you need no drivers from TiVo for this wireless setup you can change firmware, routers or whatever you need and TiVo just thinks it's hook to a hardwired network.


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## ggfox

Hmm....

I have 802.11b at home and never had a problem with signal strength. It always gets about 90% which is just as good as my PCs. I also pick up 4 other networks in the building I live. I guess it all depends on the equipment you are using, location/distance, and setup. 

But I agree with you.. if your current wireless equipment is not working well, then something should be done about it. But if my 802.11b setup was weak in signal and slower than average, then I would just buy a signal amplifier/booster (e.g, Linksys WSB24) rather than go with a more expensive all-around replacement which is not going to yield its full capacity due to current bottlenecks.

And you do need two "built-in" drivers from TiVo (USB and adapter). Without them what you plug into your USB (e.g., USBM200) will not work, and most importantly the drivers also determine how adapters work on that bus (speedwise; USB 1.1 = 12mbps, USB 2.0 = 480mbps).

Regards,
George


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## vlxjim

You not getting the point. With your wireless B network at 100% you still can't get real time transfers in best quality or high quality as far as that gos. Wireless B is just to slow and a signal amplifier/booster won't get you there either. Plus when TiVo gets us USB 2.0 drivers. The ones that build on a B network well be left in the dust.

This post was for those that wanted a wireless G network But are still waiting on TiVo for drivers.

When I say that you need no drivers from TiVo for this wireless setup I'm talking about the wireless side TiVo has the drivers for the USB200M they just need to update the chipset driver.


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## morac

I have to agree with vlxjim. The best wireless speeds I've seen with my 802.11b network is around 4 mbps (and that's with one wire link and one wireless link). Even with the artificial 12 mbps USB1.1 cap, its still 3 times faster than using 802.11b.

There is a cost/performance issue though. Is getting around 3 times the speed worth paying an extra 
2 x $90 + 2 x $27 - 2 x $$40 = $154 more than using a wireless B network. That's for 2 TiVo's. It would be more if you have more TiVos.

If you could use the Linksys WUSB54G Wireless-G USB Adapter (which you can't) it would be less of an issue since it would only be $20 more.


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## pcar1947

I agree with MORAC this is a cost/benefit issue. I also think that VIXJIM has presented this board with an alternative solution that is on the cutting edge.

I was getting ready to order the necessary equipment when I ran across these lines in one of your post.


"And don't forget you need no drivers from TIVO for this wireless setup you can change firmware, routers or whatever you need and TIVO just thinks it's hook to a hardwired network."
?When I say that you need no drivers from TIVO for this wireless setup I'm talking about the wireless side TIVO has the drivers for the USB200M they just need to update the chipset driver.?

Please clarify. How do you upset the chipset driver.

My Proposed Configuration will be as follows

1.) TiVo 2 80Hr, Linksys USB200M, WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter 

2.) Pioneer DVR-810H (wireless/HMO enabled) Linksys USB200M, WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter 

Linksys WRT54G Wireless-G Broadband Router

Do you see any issues?

Before I read this I had already invested in a WUSB-12 Adpater, and it works( Albeit slow at $58).


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## vlxjim

TiVo has the drivers for the USB 1.1 the chipset on the mother board, but the chipset on newer TiVos 2's have a chipsets that support USB 2.0. So TiVo just need to update the chipset driver so that it uses the USB 2.0 standard. And the USB200M is USB 2.0 and backwards compatible with USB 1.1. If TiVo get us the new driver you will get a free network upgrade that will transfer 4-5x faster so that a 1 hour best quality movie will transfer in 15-20 min.


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## ggfox

> _Originally posted by vlxjim _
> *You not getting the point. With your wireless B network at 100% you still can't get real time transfers in best quality or high quality as far as that gos. Wireless B is just to slow and a signal amplifier/booster won't get you there either.*


Hi,
Point was taken and understood. But that was not my point...

All I am saying is that by doing your workaround, you cannot get anything more than 12mbps (theoretical) into or out of a TiVo unit, no matter what kind of device chain you plug into it (100mbps, 54mbps, etc.).

Like you said on your original post: "...the TiVo's USB port is now the bottle neck", ...a 12mbps bottleneck.

I am not debating wether you are getting better performance or not over your old 802.11b setup. I *believe* you are getting better performance, just not what the high-speed hardware in question supports and that is something that should be clear to anybody who contemplates this solution now; There is a bottleneck, and its the current TiVo USB 1.1 driver. Once that is taken care of, then you can use the high-speed network hardware/setup to its max capacity.

That said, and like I have noted on my other posts, I know your setup has merit and will improve performance over a standard 802.11b setup. You're probably gettings a few extra mbps out of that setup over 802.11b, and that makes a lot of differnce between real and non-real time transfers (considering that an average MPEG-2 DVD is encoded for real-time playback at just only 6 to 7 mbps.) But I also believe that the level of improvement is directly related to how bad the replaced 802.11b setup was performing. For me, I have no complaints with my 802.11b setup. But I know its a different story for a lot of folks out there.

That's why IMHO, for *me* its not worth the extra $$ (just yet). I will just wait for USB 2.0 drivers from TiVo and then go with the following supported 100mbps wired or 54mbps wireless solution. Hopefully this will just be around the corner (but probably not  ) ...For those who don't want to wait, have the spare $$, or definately need more than their existing 802.11b setup, then your solution is definately the best wireless alternative, aside from wired (and perhaps faster) solutions. For those just wanting to get into wireless, I say "think about it". Its definately worth considering and the right solution for many; But just be aware of (#1) the current bottleneck and (#2) the remote posibility that in the future TiVo may drop or not (fully) support the devices you purchase for this solution today.



> *Plus when TiVo gets us USB 2.0 drivers. The ones that build on a B network well be left in the dust.*


Agreed. But I am (and have been for a while) on a 802.11b network. Just not ready to buy hardware that could (but most likely not) be dropped or never supported when they release 2.0 drivers and new network adapter drivers. There are no garantees/announcements for upcoming TiVo support, although I have to admit they have a good record... but kinda slow on delivery 



> *This post was for those that wanted a wireless G network But are still waiting on TiVo for drivers.*


My posts were meant to dicuss/clarify the existing 12mbps USB bottleneck which will greatly reduce any wireless-G solution's resulting capacity. I think this thread has accomplished that, and hopefully some folks will find it useful.



> *When I say that you need no drivers from TiVo for this wireless setup I'm talking about the wireless side TiVo has the drivers for the USB200M they just need to update the chipset driver. *


Understood also... Just making the point that such 100mbps ethernet adapter, altho supported by TiVo, will only run at no more than 12mbps.

On a side note, and for those who may be interested, I actually contacted TiVo support to check on the USB 1.1 driver & limit issue, and they responded today. Here's part of the email:



> *
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> > Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 1:34 PM
> > To: [removed]
> > Subject: Re: CID# 114327: TiVo Web Response
> >
> > Hello George,
> >
> > Thank you for contacting TiVo Customer Support. I understand
> > you would like to verify that the USB drivers on the TiVo DVR
> > are version 1.1.
> >
> > The USB drivers are version 1.1 and can run up to 12mbps. The
> > device that is USB 2.0 compatible will work with the DVR but
> > only at the 12mbps.
> >
> > ...
> *


Regards 

George


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## pcar1947

From the response in the email from TIVO Support it doesn't appear that TIVO has a USB 2.0 version on the drawing board. Oh Well!

I ordered parts anyway. I will let you know how it turns out.


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## mjcollart

Please explain how you've connected your TiVos to your USB adapters and then how you connected the game adapters and then, in turn, linked them to run on the wireless G.

Did you plug the USB200M adapters into the TiVo's USB ports?

Is there Linksys software that you need to install over the Wireless G router's? 

And how and where is the Game adapter connected?

I have a wireless G router and two laptops using wireless G network adapter cards. 

Returned a USB wireless b adapter which I could not get running. 

More details would be appreciated.


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## msadesign

This thread raises some questions for me; I've just started to setup my TiVo network. First, I have the Series2 installed, and working, and then I have the HMO working (except it won't play streaming radio stations, yet).

The questions:

I understand that when HMO plays a *song* from a remote computer, the song is streamed over the local net. True?

When you play a *video selection* on TiVo_1 that is recorded on TiVo_2, am I correct that TiVo actually _moves_ the data rather than streaming? and that this is because the available bandwidth is insufficient? And that because of this fact one would want to consider the use of wire rather than wireless?

I am using wireless and plan to use wireless to expand, but maybe I should re-think using wire? (ick, what a pain!)

Thanks,

Michael Spencer


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## SafariKC

I decided to run out and get 2 of the USB200M Wired Adaptors and ran a wire between my two tivo's tonight... I can confirm that you can indeed stream Real Time Best in that situation. 

KC


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## mjcollart

> _Originally posted by KermitTheFrog _
> *I decided to run out and get 2 of the USB200M Wired Adaptors and ran a wire between my two tivo's tonight... I can confirm that you can indeed stream Real Time Best in that situation.
> 
> KC *


===============================================
Linksys shows the USB200M as a Wireless Network Adapter!

So I do not understand "and then ran a wire between my two tivos"

Questions:

Do you simply plug the USB200M into the back of the TiVo?
Do you need to install on your computer additional Linksys software to see this remote wireless adapter?
Do you reboot your TiVo or anything else to get this going?

As a TiVo dummy, any detailed steps would be appreciated.


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## mjcollart

> _Originally posted by mjcollart _
> *===============================================
> Linksys shows the USB200M as a Wireless Network Adapter!
> 
> So I do not understand "and then ran a wire between my two tivos"
> 
> Questions:
> 
> Do you simply plug the USB200M into the back of the TiVo?
> Do you need to install on your computer additional Linksys software to see this remote wireless adapter?
> Do you reboot your TiVo or anything else to get this going?
> 
> As a TiVo dummy, any detailed steps would be appreciated. *


=============================================
Ignore my previous question. After rereading Linksys site I see that the USB200M needs a cable, too. Thanks.


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## pcar1947

Recieved all the equipment to install this solution today. Running into some issues though.

TIVOs do not recognize the Game Adapters.

I have configured both on my PC.

The first Game Adapter IP address is 198.168.1.250. When hooking this up to TIVO 1 it say that this is duplicate IP . How do you resolve this? When I attempt a connection in TIVO setup it fails. Same with TIVO2.

I am running Zone Alarm Pro. Could that be the ISsue?

I have read through the setup guide several times. I must be missing something.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Paul C


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## msadesign

If it says it's a duplicate address why don't you just change it?

Michael Spencer


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## vlxjim

When you configure the game adapters set one at 192.168.1.250 and the other at 192.168.1.249. make sure that the the switch on the back is set for infrastructure. If you have the router set to be the DHCP server make sure that the game adapters and the TiVos and set to Obtain IP address automatically. If you don't use the DHCP feature you must set the IP the subnet the gateway (which is the IP of the router) and the DSN on the game adap. and the TiVos. Also make sure that the SSID is the same on the router the game adap. and TiVo. 

If you can I would use the DHCP sever feature and set the router the game adap. the TiVos and your computers to Obtain IP address automatically. Just make sure the router and adapters are set to the same SSID and all are set for infrastructure mode.

hope this helps

Jim :^)


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## pcar1947

Jim,

I am sorry it took so long to get back to you (wife issues). Thanks for the response. 

They are both working now however I have not experienced the real time transfer yet, although the speed of transfer is much improved.

Whereas a thirty minute program took up to 2 hours to transfer now it transfers in about 45 minutes. 

The distance I am trying to transfer is approximately about 30 feet. The router and modem are in an upstairs office and one Tivo is in the basement and the other is in my upstairs Bedroom.

I will probably go back in and tweak the game adapters by checking all the settings. I previously had a G router set to mixed, because of the Tivo's on my network and now I'll set it to Wireless G only.

Thanks again


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## coldtoes

> _Originally posted by msadesign _
> *I understand that when HMO plays a song from a remote computer, the song is streamed over the local net. True? *


True.



> *When you play a video selection on TiVo_1 that is recorded on TiVo_2, am I correct that TiVo actually moves the data rather than streaming? and that this is because the available bandwidth is insufficient? And that because of this fact one would want to consider the use of wire rather than wireless?*


Actually it's copied, not moved, but I think that's what you meant. I have no idea if the engineers made that choice because of the insufficient bandwidth, but, as Kermit pointed out above, you will definitely get better speeds over a wired network. So you have to balance home aesthetics with TiVo performance. Personally, I've adapted to the limited throughput, but I'm slowly upgrading my network to 802.11g (and wired portions to 100bT) so that I'll be ready when TiVo enables the USB 2.0 port and 802.11g support.


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## pcar1947

I am Finally experiencing Real Time transfer from TIVO 1 to TIVO 2. The last step in the install is to run Guided Setup on the Tivo Boxes again, although I don't know why. That seemed to do the trick.


Anyway thanks for the solution and everyones help.


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## Crrink

Is there any advantage in using the Game Adapters, or a regular bridge versus just buying another router that can be set to bridge mode?

I'm wondering because while bridges are pretty expensive, I see routers go on sale for ~$55 to ~75 all the time. The router would also give you the benefit of having a switch built in, in case you wanted to connect more than one component to your network.


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## jfalkman

Kinda off the topic, but not really. I have 2 Series 2 tivos both with HMO. They are currently hooked to my home network, Linksys Wireless G, via wireless b WUSB11 adaptors. I want to speed up the transfer time. Can I hook 2 wired adaptors and a cross over cable along for transfering and still use the wireless to get updates??


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## vlxjim

> _Originally posted by coldtoes _
> *Actually it's copied, not moved, but I think that's what you meant. I have no idea if the engineers made that choice because of the insufficient bandwidth, but, as Kermit pointed out above, you will definitely get better speeds over a wired network. So you have to balance home aesthetics with TiVo performance. Personally, I've adapted to the limited throughput, but I'm slowly upgrading my network to 802.11g (and wired portions to 100bT) so that I'll be ready when TiVo enables the USB 2.0 port and 802.11g support. *


With the set up we are talking about you will not get better speed with a wired network over this wireless network. Both will work the same until we get the USB 2.0 drivers then the wired network will be faster. And the TiVo is coping not moving but with are setup it will copy faster than real time so you can watch in real time use the few. and rev. pause and finsh watching latter. After you are done TiVo will ask if you want to delete the movie or not.

As to bridging two or more routers that might be possable I have not tried it but I have bridge them in the past with pc's and had good luck. But for me and some others that would mean that I would need three wireless G routers. And as far as I have found is that if you are in bridge mode you can't use the access point mode not sure thought. Give it a try and let us know.

Jim


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## morac

> _Originally posted by vlxjim _
> *As to bridging two or more routers that might be possable I have not tried it but I have bridge them in the past with pc's and had good luck. But for me and some others that would mean that I would need three wireless G routers. And as far as I have found is that if you are in bridge mode you can't use the access point mode not sure thought. Give it a try and let us know.*


There was new firmware released for the WRT54G (2.02.2) and the WAP54G (2.06) the other day which implements WDS bridging. This allows both devices to act as both an AP and a bridge simultaneously. A more detailed explanation can be found here.


----------



## joeyca

VLXJIM

Well, finally broke down and spent $500+ on all the hardware (completely upgraded everything to g speed). Everything installed & working but the speed does not appear much better. Two quick questions (I hope quick):

1) How do you tell the signal strength on the Game Adapter?

2) I cannot connect to the gaming adapters web-based utility? Any tricks?

Thanks!


----------



## vlxjim

joeyca,

For both of your questions you have to be pluged in to a computer I use a laptop for this. You can then get your signal strength and use the web utility. Make sure you have different IP addresses on all your equipment. If your setup is right you should see a big difference.


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## jmarks2001

I have a DirecTivo receiver and even though it currently doesn't support HMO, I've been trolling this board so I'll be ready to go wireless if it does (I'm not holding my breath). I'm guessing that the stand-alone Series 2 Tivos don't have a built in ethernet port and that's the reason why they require the USB Ethernet Adapter, thus causing the 12Mbs bottleneck with USB v1.1. 

However, the Hughes HDVR2 DirecTivo does have a built-in ethernet port. I know it's only speculation, but can I assume that if HMO becomes available, I'll be able to use a Wireless-G bridge (or game adapter) to connect directly to the DirecTivo's ethernet port and get "G" quality transfer speeds without all this hassle?

Also, a more general for those of you that have HMO, how does it work when you want to watch a recorded program from another Tivo? Can you start watching it before it's finished copying? Does it kind of work like watching a live program that hasn't finished yet, where you can fast-forward until you catch up to Live TV (or in this case, up to the most recently recorded portion). Or do you just have to wait until the whole thing is finished copying?


Thanks


----------



## jmarks2001

I take back that last post. The DirecTivo doesn not have a built-in ethernet port. Whatever I do will involve a USB Ethernet adapter. Now the question is, wireless or not wired?

Will I notice a significant difference between the normal 4-5 Mbs you get from an 802.11b setup versus the full 12 Mbs (allowed by the USB port) that I would get from hard-wiring to a 100Mbs network? 

If so, I'm probably better of hard-wiring it and getting an immediate benefit and if/when the Tivos are updated to support USB 2.0, I'll be cruising at the full 100 Mbs. 

However, if there isn't much of a difference, it will be much easier and cheaper for me to go with a USB 1.1 and 802.11b wireless setup, especially if there are no plans to upgrade Tivo to support USB 2.0. Any word on this type of upgrade?


----------



## Bobbaxter

I have purchased the following:
1 Linksys wrt54G wireless router
2 WGA54G wireless game adapters
2 Linksys USB 200M 

Set up:
2 Tivo series 80 hours - different rooms (living room and bedroom) 
1 HP Desktop Computer with roadrunner (office) - router would go here

I plan on setting the network up to obtain IP addresses automatically and all switches set to infrastructure.

Questions:

1) In what order do you install the items to set up the network?

2) How do you configure the game adapters? Do you plug them first into the router and then once configured move them? I assume you set them for network and not PC to PC gaming. 

3) Do you need to use the web based stuff for the game adapter once you connect it to the USB 200M near the Tivos?

3) How do you set up the USB 200M? It comes with a CD. Can i just plug it into the back of the tivo and connect it to the game adapter without a set up?

4) Any special set up for the Router?

5) Do you need to run guided set up again from the tivos in order to get the better speed? Does that erase any programs? 

thank you so much for the help. Bob


----------



## jshore

Somewhat of a wireless newbie, so please bear with me...

I currently have an Apple Airport Extreme (54g), 2 tivo series 2units with linksys usb adapters running at B-speed and all is well (albeit slow).

If i try the linksys usb200m and WGA54g wireless g game adapter route, is this pretty much plug and play with an apple airport extreme? Will it even work with an imac, vs. a pc?

thanks for any input....

ps is there any way to know if my series 2 is the new kind that can be upgraded to usb 2.0 in the future, or if it's the older kind that is usb 1.1 all the way, even if tivo updates its software?

thanks again


----------



## vlxjim

First you have to plug the game adapters in to a computer I use a laptop for this. You can use the confi utility or the web one. When you configure the game adapters set one at 192.168.1.250 and the other at 192.168.1.249. make sure that the the switch on the back is set for infrastructure. If you have the router set to be the DHCP server make sure that the game adapters and the TiVos are set to Obtain IP address automatically. Also make sure that the SSID is the same on the router the game adap. and TiVo. Just plug the USB 200M in TiVo already has the drivers for it. Plug in the USB 200Ms in hookup the router setup the router. Go to the TiVo setup and switch from phone line to network and set to Obtain IP address automatically. restart the TiVo's and enjoy. This 
does not that erase any recordings.





hope this helps

Jim :^)


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## vlxjim

jshore

All most plug and play, but you well need to configure the game adapters by hooking them up to a computer first. I'm not sure if there is a config program for the Mac. If not it's a one time setup you must have access to a pc.

Series 2 TiVo's with usb 2.0 have a ser.# that starts with a 2.


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## jshore

vlxjim...

thanks for the posts so far...

just want to make sure i have this straight.

Once i get the game adapters configured to 192.168.1.250 and 249 respectively (either with my imac or by borrowing a friend's pc..), then is setup as follows...?

1. plug usb200m into each tivo. (Is this to convert the usb plugin to allow the ethernet plug of the game adapter?)
2. plug each game adapter into each usb200m.
3. make sure tivo is set to obtain ip address automatically in the tivo on-screen setup (I already have it on network setting because i have two wireless "b" adapters right now).
4. restart tivo and enjoy.

Is that it?

Are there any settings on my airport extreme that need to be tweaked? I noticed that in my airport admin utility, the "configure" setting is set at "using DHCP."

Thanks again!


----------



## jshore

one last newbie question...

how do i determine the ssid of an airport extreme?

in admin utility, i see the following sets of numbers:

IP Address: (followed by numbers)
Subnet Mask (followed by numbers)
Router: (followed by numbers)

By the way, all these settings are under the "Configure using DHCP" option....

Also, my WAN Ethernet speed is set at default. Options to change to are:
10mbps/Half duplex
10mbps/Full duplex
100mbps/half duplex
100mbps/full duplex

do i need to change these in any way?

thanks


----------



## bedelman

The SSID of the Airport is the "Wireless Network Name" that's displayed in the Airport Admin Utility. Note that the normal IP address range for an Airport is 10.0.1.xxx (where xxx is a value from 1 to 254). In which case, I would think you need to use 10.0.1.250 and 249 addresses for the game adapters instead of the 192.168.1.xxx addresses (or you could change the IP address range for the Base Station)


----------



## jshore

what's the difference between the 10.0.1.xxx addressing and the 192.168.1.x addressing?

Good catch - on my airport, it's set to use the 10.0.1.xxx addressing....

bob - any idea if the linksys can be configured with an imac?


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## bedelman

There is no real difference in the addressing. I believe there are four address ranges that are used for internal networks and are never used for public IP addresses. 10.0.xxx.xxx and 192.168.xxx.xxx are two of them. I believe another one begins with 169 which usually gets used for "self-assigned" IP addresses (when a network card can't find a DHCP server).

I use the older LinkSys WET11 802.11b bridge with my Airport Base Station for the game systems (XBOX, PS2, and GameCube). I changed WET11 to work on the 10.0.1.xxx range.

I haven't used the LinkSys game adapters, but I would imagine they should be able to work.

Some of what I found with the WET11 bridge from LinkSys may also apply to the game adapters.

With the WET11, I was able to configure it completely from the Mac also. Since they come from LinkSys with the IP address preset to 192.168.1.225, it wasn't possible for me to connect to it from the Mac which was on the 10.0.1.xxx network. I disconnected the Mac from the network, connected it directly to the WET11, and manually set the Mac's IP address to 192.168.1.5 (setting the router/gateway IP address to 192.168.1.1). I could then get to the LinkSys config screen by going to 192.168.1.225.

*Make sure you change your Mac settings back to the way they were when you re-connect to the network.*


----------



## msadesign

Bob,

I've been following your posts and hoping that someone else would ask you to do what I need: a sense of what needs to be installed on a Mac, and in what order.

I'm hoping you'll be as complete as you have been on other questions! like, what files, etc.

Any chance?

Thanks.

Michael Spencer


----------



## jshore

well, after a trip to best buy, configuring the linksys adapters via my imac (bob - thanks for the tip about changing the ip address - worked flawlessly), and hooking one up to my bedroom tivo and one to my living room tivo, i saw no gains in speed. so it's back to best buy to return all this and back to the old usb wireless adapters i had and usb 1.1 speeds for now. (Plus, when my wife saw how much i was spending on all this, she said it better go twice as fast....)

i'll just keep checking for any tivo updates to usb2.0 so i can have a true "g" wireless network....


----------



## bedelman

> _Originally posted by msadesign _
> *Bob,
> 
> I've been following your posts and hoping that someone else would ask you to do what I need: a sense of what needs to be installed on a Mac, and in what order.
> 
> I'm hoping you'll be as complete as you have been on other questions! like, what files, etc.
> 
> Any chance?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Michael Spencer *


Michael,
What are you trying to do? Use the 802.11g game adapters (or a wireless "bridge")? I've only done something similar in the past with the older LinkSys WET11 802.11b wireless bridge. There is nothing that needs to be "installed" on the Mac at all. The WET11 was configured completely by using the web interface that's built into it. I've not tried doing any of the 802.11g work using game adapters (or a 802.11g wireless bridge).

It important to know, that nothing will work any faster than the slowest component. So if you have 802.11g bridges but your wireless access point/router is only 802.11b, you won't be able to go any faster than the slowest component -- in this case, it's the 802.11b only wireless access point.


----------



## Bobbaxter

I have purchased the following:
1 Linksys wrt54G wireless router
2 WGA54G wireless game adapters
2 Linksys USB 200M 
1 sony series 2 80 hours - 110 Tivo service number
1 tivo series 2 60 hours - 140 Tivo service number

thank you for the suggestions. I set all components to obtain IP addresses automatically and configured the game adpaters as discussed. Everything worked well for about 20 minutes. The 60 hour tivo keeps losing the connection. I have to constantly reboot the machine to have it find the network again. I've tried running the guided set up and did a complete reinstall of Tivo. Any ideas? Any way to set up the Tivo or the game adapter so either one doesn't lose the connection? Do I need to do anything special with the router? This is strange because the sony is working flawlessly and they are both running the same Tivo operating system (4.0.1b). Both units are about equal distance from the router. thank you in advance. Bob


----------



## vlxjim

jshore,

Sounds like you might of not had it all setup right. Forget the USB 1.1 or 2.0 for right now, wireless "B" 11mbs is really only 4-5mbs and "G" 54mbs is 22-25mbs, the usb is 12mbs. So if you are setup right you should see a huge speed gain. I've setup a few of these so far and all have made a big diffrence. Try to transfer a 1 hour best quality movie it take me 45-48 min. It use to take 5-6 hours with the "B" setup.


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## vlxjim

Bobbaxter,

I had the same thing happen to me two times. The first time I reset every thing the next time I restarted just the TiVo. I have not had one problem sence. You might be getting interferance from a cordless or micowave. I switch out my cordless phones to the 54gig one and took care of that problem. I use to not be able to use my laptop and phone at the same time.


----------



## Bobbaxter

one other thought I had. Would it help to change the channel on the router and game identifier? I had the router set for G only and channel 6. I set the same channel on the game adapters. Would it help to change the channel setting? any thoughts? what about going back to a mixed networok of 802.11b and 802.11g. I don't have anything using the wireless network other than the game adapters which is why i left the router at G network only. 

If I go to a static IP set up, what do I do. How would you set up the router, Tivo, and game adapters. I've used the web based linkys software but it is a bit complicated for me. thanks again. Bob

1 Linksys wrt54G wireless router
2 WGA54G wireless game adapters
2 Linksys USB 200M 
1 sony series 2 80 hours - 110 Tivo service number
1 tivo series 2 60 hours - 140 Tivo service number


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## vlxjim

Bobbaxter,

You could try channel 11. I use mix mode. For a static IP uncheck obtain IP addresses automatically. Use 192.168.1.1 for the router ,use 192.168.1.249 and 192.168.1.250 for the game adapters, use 192.168.1.25 and 192.168.1.30 for the TiVo's and 192.168.1.5 for your computer. Use the subnet mask of 255.255.255.0 and gateway of 192.168.1.1 on all. Make sure the SSID are all the same use ("linksys
" or make onr up). Also and you usng WEP Encryption if so try turnning it off and see if that helps. If it dose try a diffrent key and bit (64 or 128bit).


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## jdmass

vlxjim,

Thanks for posting this configuration.

I recently added a second S2 and enabled multi-room viewing. With my 802.11b network performance was awful - 4-5 hrs to transfer a 1 hr show. I upgraded to the exact config that you described and the the difference was huge. We usually record in High quality, and these transfer in faster than real-viewing time.

Certainly not a cheap solution, but if wired ethernet is not an option, this is as good as it gets.


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## josetann

I've got a cheaper solution. $5 for a drill-bit at wal-mart, already have the drill. Also already have the cable. Drill one hole behind the entertainment center (no one'll see that), then another in the closet in our bedroom (will only see a couple inches of cable as it comes out and behind the entertainment center in the bedroom).

Since we're talking wireless though, I do have a bridge using two Netgear HE102's. It connects my shop to my house (only about 60 feet apart). I have it set to 6mb/s, but it'll go up to 54mb/s. Now I can run JavaHMO on my main desktop, and if/when I get a TiVo down here it can stream with the ones up at the house.

I would have run wire for that too, but I'd have to get the right grade, get conduit, bury it, etc...not worth it at all.


----------



## GWJ

The comments on this thread imply the SSIDs of the router / bridges need to be the same - not sure I can do that since I have the following:

Home Router - SSID 'MyNetwork'

3 x Airport Express each with SSID identifying which room they are in - currently using the audio out for streaming music. iTunes uses the SSID I believe to allow you to switch from one to the other.

I was hoping to hang two Tivos off the ethernet port of the two different airport expresses (using two usb to ethernet adapters) to set up a HMO network

Any chance I can get this to work?

Cheers in advance,:

confused:


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## JasonD

Could you use an access point Linksys wap54g instead of the game adapter WGA54G. it would be cheaper?

jason


----------



## JuryDuty

Well, after a bit of thought, I decided to spring for this configuration and see how it worked for me. After I receive it and set it up, I'll let you know how it works. I'm in a two-story house with one TiVo upstairs, one down, and the computer on the other side of the house from both.

I found the router and game adapters cheapest at Amazon. Plus there are rebates and a $20 Amazon Gift Certificate offered right now on top of the best prices.

The USB adapters were cheapest at Buy.com by $1.50 or so, so I got those there.

Total cost was about $290. I can sell my current system for about $150 on ebay, so this was a $140 investment for me in all.


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## JuryDuty

Well, I finally got everything and hooked it up. The transfer is faster, but not much. I'm not getting a very great signal (about 50%). Here's what I've got going:

Tivo1 and 2: Each has a USB200M -> WGA54G Game Adapter, each one is about 75 feet from the router, one upstairs, one down.
Computer -> WGT54G Router

I'm on channel 10, both game adapters set to get their IPs automatically. 64-bit encryption. I've tried all channels, with and w/o encryption and with static IP addresses.

What do you think the problem is? 
Transferring a show on the lowest quality takes about 1 hour to transfer a half hour show. That's faster than I got before, but I figured I should EASILY be able to do this in real-time given the fact that YOU can do high quality in real time. 

Help! Any suggestions would be appreciated!


----------



## ashu

While this is a 'currently practical' solution, I would also pester the TiVo Gods to officiall support USB Wireless G devices, and/or upgrade the USB drivers to true 2.0.

For me, the added cost of moving my network to G is not worth it (yet), expecially since even with my antenna-less DLINK DWL122 (only $10 to 20 after rebate) I can transfer Medium Quality faster than realtime between my TiVos - 2 wired, 1 wireless.


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## JuryDuty

Well, I FINALLY got this network to work for me, though not at the speeds described here. I've got a high-gain antenna on order...will be interesting to see if that helps.

Incidentally, after HOURS of going back and forth with this network, I finally got it to work, but not exactly as described here. 

For me, I kept DHCP running, and set my game adapters to obtain IP addresses automatically. Then, I had to go in and set each of my Tivo's up, specifying a unique IP address (i.e. 192.168.1.146), subset mask (255.255.255.0), gateway/router address (192.168.1.1) and DNS (from my provider). Then, suddenly, it worked. That's a bit different from what others have done, but it worked for me!


----------



## ashu

> _Originally posted by JuryDuty _
> *, I had to go in and set each of my Tivo's up, specifying a unique IP address (i.e. 192.168.1.146), subset mask (255.255.255.0), gateway/router address (192.168.1.1) and DNS (from my provider). Then, suddenly, it worked. That's a bit different from what others have done, but it worked for me!  *


That's odd! I had to do that ages ago when my outgoing connection was dialup. Setting the router's IP as the DNS on all the PCs/TiVos would NEVER work and I had to use the ISP-provided DNS.

But I had (Win 2K internet/ethernet) connection sharing running too - on the PC with the dialup modem, and I suspected that forced this necessity. Who knows! Are all your wireless devices the same brand and loaded up with the (con)current firmware?


----------



## JuryDuty

Yes, all current. The router's IP isn't my DNS though--I used the DNS provided from my provider. The routers IP is my gateway.


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## JuryDuty

Hey, it finally works great for me--I'm getting transfers as fast as I can watch them. A 30-minute show takes about 20 minutes. I can watch as it goes. Very cool!

In addition to the setup mentioned in this thread, it made ALL the difference for me to buy the Linksys Antenna Stand for TNC Connectors - AS2TNC. It's $22 at Buy.com and allows you to put your router's antennas up to 6 feet away from the router. I have mine up on my wall and it has increased my reception greatly. The stand is really intended for using with the $40 high-gain antenna pack they also sell, but you can also use it with your current antennas. Highly recommended.


----------



## JuryDuty

So, in summary, for anyone who's reading this thread for the first time, here's what I bought along with what I did to get it working for me. 

Here are the best prices I found, including shipping:

Linksys WRT54G Wireless Router ($61 - $10 rebate at Amazon.com)
Linksys WGA54G Game Adapter x2 ($76 each at Amazon.com)
Linksys USB200M Adapters x2 ($25 each at Buy.com)
Linksys AS2TNC Antenna Stand ($22 at Buy.com)
I also have this on order, though I haven't used it yet: Linksys High Gain Antenna ($40 at Buy.com)

Note that I chose free standard shipping for all these items, and still received them within 48 hours from both Amazon and Buy.com. I live in Texas.

Step 1: I plugged in my router, removing the antennas and plugging them into the antenna stand. I mounted my antenna stand about 6 feet up in the air. Then I set my router to get its IP address automatically. I used mixed mode. I also used WEP with a hexidecimal code.

Step 2: By ethernet cable, I connected each game adapter to my PC. After inital set-up by CD, I logged into the adapter via my browser (according to the instructions) and told it to get the IP address automatically. I used Mixed mode. I also used WEP with a hexidecimal code. After unplugging the adapters for a minute, I verified that I could surf the net wirelessly on my laptop through the game adapters with these settings. 

Step 3: I plugged the USB adapters into each Tivo. I plugged the game adapters into the USB adapters. I rebooted the Tivos. In the Tivo settings area, I assigned a unique IP address to each Tivo (i.e. 192.168.1.146 and 192.168.1.147), the same subset mask (255.255.255.0), the same gateway/router address (192.168.1.1) and the same DNS (which came from my provider--you can find yours in the status area of your router). 

Step 4: I tried to make the default call. One worked right away, the other worked the next morning, after I let it sit overnight. Anyway, then I was able to transfer shows in real-time wirelessly!

Hope this helps someone--post here if it helps you!


----------



## Bmaur34

I too was tired of the slow transfer time with my wireless b network so when I came across vlxjim suggestion I had to try it....although it wasn't cheap it works great!!! 

One question for vlxjim are you able to set the WEP without locking out the game controller? Since Tivo doesn't think it's on a wireless connection you can't set the password. Any solutions?

Bob


----------



## JuryDuty

> _Originally posted by Bmaur34 _
> *One question for vlxjim are you able to set the WEP without locking out the game controller? Since Tivo doesn't think it's on a wireless connection you can't set the password. Any solutions?
> 
> Bob *


Yep--you just set up the WEP in the game adaptes (it's the second tab over when you're setting them up).


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## Bmaur34

I never setup my game adapters. Just plugged them in and they worked. So if I understand correct to setup WEP I need to plug each game adapter into a PC and run the setup, assign the password and then plug them back into the Tivo's?


----------



## JuryDuty

You got it!


----------



## denver

Have this setup running and it works great at transferring programs. I think the design is solid (thanks, vlxjim!!).

My problem is with the Linksys adapters - the one most remote from my router disconnects frequently (daily) and has to be reset to work again.

I've read the posts about antennas, and may give that a try. I've also read a large amount of fairly negative stuff on Amazon about the WGA54G.

My question is, can I use any one of a number of units sold as "Ethernet bridges" or WAPs? They all seem to do the same thing - link a wireless G network to an ethernet connection. Am I missing something?

If I can use a bridge/WAP, does anyone have a suggestion for a good troube free unit with GOOD range??

Many thanks for any help!!!


----------



## alershka

I am interested in doing this on my network. My only question is this: can the Game Adapter be hooked up to a switch?

My current "B" network, uses the USB adapter hooked up to my one Tivo and the WET11 wireless bridge hooked up to a wired switch. The switch is hooked up to my Tivo via wired USB, my Xbox and my PS2. The show stopper for me is replacing the WET11 for something less than the $170 for the Linksys G bridge.

Right now it takes me about 1:15 minutes to move 30 minutes of high quality video.

Jeff



> _Originally posted by vlxjim _
> *Just to let you folks know you can get real time transfers in best quality. I just setup two TiVo 2 80Hr with two of the Linksys USB200M USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapters, each hooked to a Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter (works just like the WET54G Wireless-G Ethernet Bridge but cost less and in a different case for the gaming market). Routed by a Linksys WRT54G Wireless-G Broadband Router. The high gain antenna on the WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter get a much better signal than the WUSB11. I get 100% on singal and link with this setup with both TiVo's 75+ feet from the router (one up stairs one down stairs). I now have a 54G network the TiVo's USB port is now the bottle neck. I can now watch in real time the transfer of best quality video. Watching a two hour movie in best quality is no problem. And the Med. quality transfers are three to four time as fast.
> 
> I hope this helps some of you out.
> 
> Jim  *


----------



## jc-nh

If your primary router is a WRT54G or WRT54GS you can just buy another one of those and it's a lot cheaper than either a bridge or the game adapter.

You would tie the 2 routers together wirelessly with WDS. In order to use that feature you would need to download and install 3rd party firmware to the routers. I use Sveasoft firmware myself. I'd post a link but the boards don't allow me to post URL's with my lost post count.  

I just purchased my 2 Tivo's last week and now have them both setup wirelessly using a USB200M ethernet adapter and WRT54G at each Tivo.


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## Bmaur34

I am having the same issue as denver. My game adapter farthest from the access point needs to be reset daily. Does anyone have any fixes for this?

Otherwise it works great!


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## denver

I was able to relocate my router to a better spot in between the two game adapters. In my case, I moved the router and DSL modem to another phone jack in a better location. I did need to get an adapter to connect my PC to the network as it was no longer connected directly to the router. The game adapters seem to be much more sensitive to a weak signal than the PC adapters, etc. That this fix works confirms for me that the problem was signal strength, as I had suspected. 

With this change its been up and running for about a week without the need for any resets.


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## jruben4

Would it be possible to have a single Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter for two or more devices if you had a switch on the game adapter side? You'd probably have to assign subnet IPs to those devices, but it would be cheaper than a game adapter for each device...

-J


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## ashu

I used to do (almost) just tha - I used a D-Link 802.11B device - the 900+ I believe - which supported AP, Bridging, Client, Repeater and other modes. I set it to client mode, and put a switch behind it with PCs, game machines, TiVos galore on the other side, and DHCP enabled (or sensibly picked static IPs). Not a single problem.

Also, having two TiVos on that same switch would presumably route MRV traffic between those two TiVos directly (wired etherneT!) through that switchm instead of back up the wireless pipeline (gam adapter or D-Link 800/810 or 900 type adapter) to the router and back down again!


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## jruben4

What would be the cheapest G device for this function? I think all I would need would be the bridging + routing functions, right? I think the going-out-of-business microsoft routers could do bridging, and they were going pretty cheap if they are still available.

-J


----------



## ashu

No, you would need the 'Client' function.

The B version (from D-Link) of the device i own is ... the DWL-900AP+, which oddly enough sems to have been pulled from all references and links!

It is referenced on the antenna page
http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=57
It runs in Client mode, Range Extender/Repeater mode, Access Point mode, and one more!

Bridging mode ONLY works with a LIMITED SUBSET of other D-Link devices.

However, the DWl-G810 should do the trick for you.

I would jump onto other forums such as those on broadbandreports.com to ensure it will work.

Its a pity D-Link doesn't carry a G version of the 900AP+, it performs a superset of the functions of the 800/810 type devices (which, I understand, will suffice for you in client mode)

<edit> Here ya go - the tech support page for the 900PA+ exists ...
http://support.dlink.com/products/view.asp?productid=DWL-900AP+

Hmm - maybe I have it working in Point-to-Multipoint Bridge mode, but I doubt it. In client mode, IT gets a DHCP ID from the router it links to, and it then (the wire) hits the WAN input port of another router (my personal subnet), providing it ANOTHER DHCP IP from the router it is (wirelessly)
connected to. That router then has a WAN connection, and serves its own subnet, but previously I have connected the 900AP+ to a switch and had 1-2 PCs, a game console (borrowed PS2) and one TiVo behind it, working great with my D-Link router being the wireless AP for the subnet and handing out multiple DHCP IPs to eahc of the devices connected to the switch. You may need modifications of your Gateway IP to be the IP assigned (or statically set) for the Bridge-like device running in client mode (192.168.0.50 for the 900AP+, or .30 for the 800 or 810)

<ANOTHER edit>
Newegg has this as well as the (802.11B based) 900AP+ in stock. But its pricy! I paid around 50 after rebate for the 900AP+. But considering the G810 should save you bunches of money by limiting the total number of wireless devices you buy (since you can hook it into a switch), the 93.99 (incl. shipping) is a steal 

Search on froogle.google.com as well, for other prices.


----------



## jruben4

I would think bridging function is what we would need. Then the bridging AP would get a single IP from the base AP on the root subnet (192.168.0) and the bridge router would give out IPs to the TiVo's on a differnt subnet (192.168.1.x)... And I think there are cheap G AP's out there that do bridging... is this right?

-J


----------



## ashu

Umm, these modes are EXCLUSIVE. So a bridging mode device (at least one of the D-Links) will no longer do AP functions like giving out IPs etc etc.

But in client mode, you can do one of 2 things ...
a. It forwards DHCP requests from devices connected to the same switch to the 'main' router and returns a DHCP IP
b. The other devices can be assigned static IPs in the same subnet, with the static or DHCP IP of the Client-mode device (800/810/900) as one of the DNS servers and as the gateway. That definitely works too.


----------



## creighton1

After reading this thread I was determined to get my TIVO's working on an 802.11g network (albeit limited by the 12Mbps transfer rate of USB 1.1). After considering the Linksys Game Adapters, I settled upon using additional Linksys WRT54G router/access points instead (biggest consideration was the cost, I was able to pick up the WRT54G's for about $50 each). After upgrading to the latest SVEASOFT firmware on each I set up the WRT54G's for WDS (wireless distribution system). Using USB200M adapters, I plugged each TIVO into a WRT54G and it all worked beautifully. I now have three WRT54G's: 1) Connected to the cable modem acting as the Gateway and DHCP server; 2) connected in bedroom to TIVO Series 2; and 3) Connected in Living Room to Tivo Series 2. Not only is each of the WRT54G's capable of accepting 3 more wired clients, each also acts as an access point and allows wireless connections. In addition to now being able to transfer Highest Quality recordings in real time, I also have the added benefit of rock solid wireless coverage in every corner of my home. I think it would have been possible to set this up using additional WRT54G's in client mode instead of WDS (essentially they would be bridges), but I would have lost their access point functionality of each. 

I must admit, it was a bit tricky, and frustrating trying to get everything set up, but well worth the effort IMO.


----------



## ashu

Fascinating - so you managed to get free clients with bonus (wireless signal) repeater mode (just by setting each up to work in 'WDS' mode!). I must look into this. I realized Linksys was fast outpacing the competition thanks to opening up the driver/firmware etc, but didn't realize the extent of the leaps and bounds it had taken 

Perhaps there will be no more 'cheap' D-Link hardware in my future!


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## jc-nh

I did the same exact thing here... Works great!  

Jeff


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## joshag

Has anyone had any luck using products (802.11g) other than Linksys?


----------



## NotVeryWitty

> _Originally posted by creighton1 _
> *After reading this thread I was determined to get my TIVO's working on an 802.11g network (albeit limited by the 12Mbps transfer rate of USB 1.1). After considering the Linksys Game Adapters, I settled upon using additional Linksys WRT54G router/access points instead (biggest consideration was the cost, I was able to pick up the WRT54G's for about $50 each). After upgrading to the latest SVEASOFT firmware on each I set up the WRT54G's for WDS (wireless distribution system). Using USB200M adapters, I plugged each TIVO into a WRT54G and it all worked beautifully. I now have three WRT54G's: 1) Connected to the cable modem acting as the Gateway and DHCP server; 2) connected in bedroom to TIVO Series 2; and 3) Connected in Living Room to Tivo Series 2. Not only is each of the WRT54G's capable of accepting 3 more wired clients, each also acts as an access point and allows wireless connections. In addition to now being able to transfer Highest Quality recordings in real time, I also have the added benefit of rock solid wireless coverage in every corner of my home. I think it would have been possible to set this up using additional WRT54G's in client mode instead of WDS (essentially they would be bridges), but I would have lost their access point functionality of each.
> 
> I must admit, it was a bit tricky, and frustrating trying to get everything set up, but well worth the effort IMO. *


One question with this setup: can you use WPA encryption with this setup? It was my understanding that due to the way WDS was implemented, it was inherently incompatible with WPA. Because of the security holes in WEP, and a neighbor who I don't trust, I need to use WPA for my network.


----------



## jc-nh

WPA over WDS works in the latest pre-release Alchemy version of the Sveasoft firmware. You need to donate ($20 I think) in order to access anything more recent than the Satori version they offer for free.


----------



## creighton1

Though I don't use WPA encryption, from reading the forum posts at sveasoft.com it appears there has been succes with using it and WDS with firmware version Alchemy-pre5.4a.


----------



## NotVeryWitty

> _Originally posted by creighton1 _
> *Though I don't use WPA encryption, from reading the forum posts at sveasoft.com it appears there has been succes with using it and WDS with firmware version Alchemy-pre5.4a. *


Okay, this is very interesting news.  My first Tivo is connected to my WRT54G router with a wired connection, but I'm still going through dial-up for my second Tivo, because I don't want to run CAT-5 cabling to my bedroom, and Tivo *still* doesn't support any of the 802.11g adapters. 

If you don't mind, I have a few more questions about your setup...

Can your WRT54G (with the Alchemy firmware) that's connected to the cable modem act as a standard wired router *plus* as an 802.11g access point *plus* as a WDS bridge?

You say that the WRT54G's connected to the Tivos (through the USB200M's) can also act as access points. I'm curious how that works. Does each WRT54G have a different SSID?

How stable is the sveasoft firmware? I'm not an expert in wireless, and I don't want to spend a lot of time fiddling with settings to make things work.

Any other "gotcha's" we may want to consider?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## ashu

Excellent questions - I'd love to know the answers too!

It would indeed be excellently awesome if each WRT54G serves the same subnet & SSID, and essentially functions as a 'repeater'. 

Also, how is DHCP handled in this case? Or isn't it? (only one DHCP servre allowed in an IP range, right? Satic IPs?)


----------



## jc-nh

The latest *official* stable version of sveasoft firmware is called Satori and is available for free. This version supports WDS and everything you'd want to do except WPA over WDS.

The newest version of sveasoft is called Alchemy and is still in beta and there are various pre-release versions out but in order to get those versions you need to donate $20. I have found that for what I need to do on my home network these have been stable.

To answer your questions about WDS:

- SSID is same on all routers
- routers are all on the same subnet (each device is assigned static IP)
- DHCP is enabled on one router and disabled on the others
- each router acts as a wired/wireless AP as well as the WDS connection to the other router(s)
- if you have other wireless clients attached to an AP running WDS there will be a performace hit since the WRT54G/GS only has 1 radio

Here is a HOW-TO that someone created for Satori to give you a general idea of how to set it up. This guide says to use client mode on the 2nd router but you should leave it at AP if you want other wireless clients to be able to use it.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/linksysinfo/WDS_WRT54GS_SETUP_GUIDE.pdf

Here is a post by someone who setup WPA over WDS on an Alchemy Pre-Release:

http://www.sveasoft.com/modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5677

-----

Here is my quick How-To for setting up WDS with pre5.3 using Wolf's stable w30 build. Hope this helps, I found it very quick and easy to setup WDS with WPA-PSK. Although WDS introduces various wireless headaches because of AP+bridge operation, I prefer the network bridging of "lan-mode WDS" versus the routing headaches of "routed Client mode" introduced in Alchemy firmware series.

Step 0: My Assumptions 
- these are dedicated bridges + APs (not using router features) 
- local network = 192.168.1.0 (subnet = 255.255.255.0) 
- network has separate DHCP, DNS and NTP servers (all @ 192.168.1.2) 
- network has separate Internet router @ 192.168.1.1 
- tested with wrt54gs units

Potential network problems are often related to fact that WDS mode provides both bridging and AP modes of operation ("AP+bridge"). Therefore a wireless client can connect to either end of the bridge. If using Wireless-->MAC Filter settings then do it on both WRT units otherwise if WRT units are close the "blacklisted" client will still connect to your network.

Step 1: Preparation 
1.1 Prevent simple mistakes. Put tape over Internet port because these units provide dedicated bridge+AP service on the network (separate router). The Internet port is not used.

1.2. Upgrade firmware to Wolf's pre5.3_w30. Connect LAN port of WRT1 to a single PC and install pre5.3_w30. After reboot login to WRT1 and go to Administration-->Factory Defaults and toggle Restore Factory Defaults = Yes and then Save Settings.

Perform same upgrade and reset to factory defaults on WRT2.

During this step you may want to write down Wireless MAC address from Status-->Wireless page.

Now clear your browser cache (Internet Explorer or Firefox)

1.3. Determine MAC and IP addresses. Configuring WDS will require knowing the wireless MAC address of each WRT. If you can count in hex then add 2 to LAN mac address from preprinted label on bottom of unit. Otherwise boot up the router and check Status-->Wireless page.

Also note I've assigned a static IP to each WRT. The Local IP Address must be different on each WRT and recall that default address is 192.168.1.1.

WRT1 (Example used in how-to) 
Preprinted Label = 00:0f:66:11:11:01 (LAN MAC address) 
Internet MAC = 00:0f:66:11:11:02 
Wireless MAC = 00:0f:66:11:11:03 
Local IP Address = 192.168.1.11 (I picked this static IP address)

WRT2 (Example used in how-to) 
Preprinted Label = 00:0f:66:22:22:0a (LAN MAC address) 
Internet MAC = 00:0f:66:22:22:0b 
Wireless MAC = 00:0f:66:22:22:0c 
Local IP Address = 192.168.1.12 (I picked this static IP address)

1.4. Additional label. Put blank address label on bottom of each router and write down the following:

On WRT1 blank label write down the following: 
Local IP address = 192.168.1.11 
Partner wireless MAC = 00:0f:66:22:22:0c

On WRT2 blank label write down the following: 
Local IP address = 192.168.1.12 
Partner wireless MAC = 00:0f:66:11:11:03

This will make your life easy during the inevitable firmware upgrades that happen over the next year or two.

Step 2: Administration Configuration 
The first config work I do involves the Adminstration-->Management page. Here are the changes I make from factory defaults of pre5.3_w30:

- Password (change default password) 
- Loopback = disable 
- NTP Client = 192.168.1.2 (not needed) 
- Routing = disable 
- SSH = enable

Make sure 802.1x is enabled on the Administration-->Management page.

Step 3: Setup-->Basic Setup Configuration

On WRT1 
- Internet Connection Type = Disable 
- Local IP Address = 192.168.1.11 
- Gateway = 192.168.1.1 
- Local DNS = 192.168.1.2 
- DHCP Server = Disable

On WRT2 
- Internet Connection Type = Disable 
- Local IP Address = 192.168.1.12 
- Gateway = 192.168.1.1 
- Local DNS = 192.168.1.2 
- DHCP Server = Disable

Make sure you only have one DHCP server on your local network. Configuring local DNS is helpful if you login via telnet or SSH. Otherwise don't bother configuring it.

Step 4: Wireless Configuration 
Here are my settings on both WRT1 and WRT2, adjust to your liking:

- Wireless Mode = AP 
- Wireless Network Mode = Mixed 
- Wireless Network Name (SSID) = wds_test_ssid 
- Wireless Channel = 6 
- Wireless SSID Broadcast = Enable

Strongly recommend you enable SSID broadcast. To use WPA-PSK authentication you must have same SSID in WRT1 and WRT2.

Step 5: Wireless-->Security Configuration 
Again, you need the same settings on WRT1 and WRT2:

- Security Mode: WPA-Pre-Shared Key 
- WPA Algorithms: TKIP 
- WPA Shared Key: testkey 
- Group Key Renewal: 3600

Note: The real Pre-Shared Key should have 25 or more random characters to reduce the possibility of a brute force attack.

Step 6: Wireless-->WDS Configuration 
Configure the WDS partner info on this page.

On WRT1 
LAN 00:0f:66:22:22:0c wrt2_mac

On WRT2 
LAN 00:0f:66:11:11:03 wrt1_mac

Step 7: Verify wireless bridge is working 
- Ping wrt1 from LAN side of wrt2. Then ping wrt2 from LAN side of wrt1. Then try pinging hosts across the bridge.

- Login to WRT1 and WRT2 webpages. Go to Status-->Wireless and verify you have a non-zero RSSI listed under WDS Signal.

-----

I assume no responsibility if something goes wrong. 

Good luck! 

Jeff


----------



## ashu

Whoa! This board needs a 'karma' functionality 

Thanks!


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## creighton1

But for the fact I do not use WPA, my setup is nearly identical to jc's. SSID is the same for each of the WRT54G's used in the WDS configuration and all are on the same subnet. Nice thing is that once you have established a wireless client connection with one of the access points, that connection will be seemlessly handed betwee the access points in the WDS configuration depending upon which has the strongest signal at the time. As far as stability is concerned, I am using pre-release version 5.3 of SVEASOFT's Alchemy firmware and it has been running without a hickup for about six days. Not long term I know, but so far so good.


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## NotVeryWitty

jc-nh and creighton1:

Thank you so much for all the helpful information!!!!! :up: :up: :up:


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## rdgoldbecker

I purchased the setup you recommended and installed the router with no problems. I was just wondering if there are any special tips or tricks when configuring the gaming adapters. Is it just a plug and play situation? or Do I have to configure the gaming adapters using my PC first before connecting them to the USB200M at the TiVo unit? Thanks for sharing this info. It may cost a little more than purchasing the WUSB11 or 12 adapters, but like you said, when USB 2.0 drivers are written your ready to go, plus the current transfer speed is quite good. Thanks again.


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## jbd1962

1 tivo 140, 1 tivo 80, 1 wrt54g router, 2 usb200m, 2 wrg54g. transfering high quality 125% real time, extremely pleased. now i want 2 more dvrs! only had one glitch in setup and it was my own fault for not reading all the posts, configured game adapters on laptop, when i connected them to tivo, it says no wireless network found, (i now know that tivo does not "see a network") spent 2 hours configuring and reconfiguring before i figured it out. otherwise it was a fairly easy and would have been quick "network" to setup. the tivos are about 50 feet apart on same floor. it seems to me from the posts of those who were disapointed in this setup, that maybe distance and lack of signal strength are the problem with the lack of significant gain in speed (it was taking 2 - 3 hours for me to transfer 1 hour of recording time). just my 2 cents worth. any way thanks again for a great idea.


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## saturnx8

thanks for posting that snazzy piece on configuring 2 wrt54g routers. I got it up and running with no problem at all. I look forward to adding 2 more to the network to see how they do. But right now I am in happyland. Too bad TiVo doesn't support g adaptors yet, but you know, with this solution I am not really all that worried about it anyhow.


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## kennyk2104

when using mrv, are you watching the show off of the other tivo, or transfering it to the tivo of viewing pleasure, in return using space on this tivo?


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## ashu

The latter. So you get an identical copy on each TiVo.

You have to manually go to the source TiVo and delete the show, unless it gets deleted by the deletion algorithms and ISN'T marked Keep Until I Delete (KUID)


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## bnm81002

> _Originally posted by vlxjim _
> *Just to let you folks know you can get real time transfers in best quality. I just setup two TiVo 2 80Hr with two of the Linksys USB200M USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapters, each hooked to a Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter (works just like the WET54G Wireless-G Ethernet Bridge but cost less and in a different case for the gaming market). Routed by a Linksys WRT54G Wireless-G Broadband Router. The high gain antenna on the WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter get a much better signal than the WUSB11. I get 100% on singal and link with this setup with both TiVo's 75+ feet from the router (one up stairs one down stairs). I now have a 54G network the TiVo's USB port is now the bottle neck. I can now watch in real time the transfer of best quality video. Watching a two hour movie in best quality is no problem. And the Med. quality transfers are three to four time as fast.
> 
> I hope this helps some of you out.
> 
> Jim  *


I have the Linksys wired router BEFSR81, can I use the WGA54G along with a USB200M, will that work for my Pioneer DVR810H? thanks


----------



## RonEMc

First time posting. I've read this entire thread and am hoping I've missed something and someone can help. 

I have a Linksys BEFW11S4 wireless router hooked up to my computer and cable modem. I have two TIVOs - one downstairs and one upstairs - networked with Linksys WUSB11 wireless USB adapters. I have excellent signal strength on both TIVOs and the Home Medio Option is working fine for MP3s and pictures on both units. The multi-room viewing feature is not. I am transferring a 30 minute show in best quality and it's been 1.5 hours so far. It's almost done, but YIKES!!!

Without scraping my wireless B network and going with the configuration jc-nh described, is there anything anyone has done with their wireless B to get better transfer times? I wouldn't mind going G, but I don't have that much need for MRV, but want the option just in case. And, with G not yet supported, I'd like to wait until them.

Any help is much appreciated.

Ron


----------



## swingline

I have a Mac version of vlxjim's setup, using an Airport Extreme as the main base station and an Airport Express in a WDS config w/ the Extreme. This config turns the Express' WAN port into a LAN which is hardwired to the TiVo via a 200M. I used to have a D-link 802.11b connected directly to the Tivo and I can tell you that playing my iTunes songs w/ HMO was a stuttery mess. Since I changed to the above config, I get flawless playback of my music and photos. So it's definitely faster, and IMO, worth the cost.


----------



## dB02

Would it be worth upgrading to G for streaming media back n forth? Or is it not gonna work?


----------



## Brergo

I have been reading this thread and others and have one question...can I use and 802.11g USB adapter on my TiVo and an 802.11g router on the other end? I know TiVo doesn't currently support 802.11g, but wouldn't both devices just drop back to the 802.11b standard?

If that won't work, how about having an 802.11b USB adapter on my TiVo and an 802.11g router at the other end?


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## joewatch

I'm interested in setting up my Tivo series 1 in a 802.11g network. Instead of the Linksys WGA54G, which is currently selling for 99.95, I'm thinking of using the ASUS WL-330G which can function as a bridge, WAP or wireless adapter. The price is much better $57.99 at newegg, it has greater functionality, and it's smaller. Has anyone tried this? Any caveats? 
The WL-330G in wireless adapter mode can be set-up easily using the web-based interface.


----------



## ashu

In a nutsehll (per my post above) - yes.

You can even hook up the bridge (in client mode) to a switch, to which you can then connect multiple devices (Playstation, additional TiVos, Media Computer etc) and save on buying multiple wireless devices


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## hxmiller

Has anyone been successful using the Dlink DUB-E100 USB 2.0 adapter and connect it to a 802.11g gaming adapter. After rebate the D=link gaming adapter is around $60.


Tivo ---> DUB-E100 ---> DWL-820 ~~~~ AP ---> Network

Should I configure the Tivo as if it were on a wired network and the gaming adapter as a bridge each gets its own IP address in the subnet?


----------



## bkdelong

Hrm. Has anyone taken this network topology and diagramed it in MS Visio? And made an image of said diagram? Trying to wrap my head around it.


----------



## eibgrad

> _Originally posted by bkdelong _
> *Hrm. Has anyone taken this network topology and diagramed it in MS Visio? And made an image of said diagram? Trying to wrap my head around it. *


No, no visio diagram here, but, it's not as complicated as it may seem. Don't get hung up on the "gaming adapter" either. Fact it, ANY wireless AP will provide a similar solution. These guys keep mentioning the gaming adapter because it tends to be cheaper than a pure AP. But there are much cheaper options these days than even these gaming adapters, some darn near FREE.

For example, I purchased some cheap Belkin F5D7230-4 "G" routers (<$10) and converted one of them to an AP (it supports WDS, or wireless bridging, not all vendors do, D-Link typically doesn't). All you do is install a USB ethernet adapter on your Tivo (I used the D-Link USB 2.0 DUB-E100), then patch one of the routers to it via ethernet, and finally configure that router for AP mode only. You go back to the other router (the one attached to your broadband and providing DHCP, NAT, firewall, etc.) and tell it to allow wireless access by the other AP (based on MAC address), and whalla, your Tivo is communicating over wireless "G" (albeit your Tivo thinks its connected as wired). This avoids lots of wireless configuration issues w/ your Tivo as well, you simply configure it for wired access (in most cases, nothing more than tell it to use DHCP). All the wireless configuration is confined to the AP itself, and router.

Total investment? Got BOTH routers for FREE (after rebate). Truth be told, the stupid ethernet adapter is what actually ran the cost up, about $23 (w/ tax) @ Fry's.

In truth, a very simple and clean solution. Avoids all those issues of wireless adapter compatibility that Tivo stupidly introduced by requiring customers to use SPECIFIC wireless adapters and drivers. Incredibly dumb decision for an otherwise ingenious device. Only problem now is, the lack of an ethernet port limits everyone to USB 1.1 performance (12mbps), ugh, since that's the ONLY means to network the Tivo. Yet another brilliant decision by Tivo engineers. So now w/ HMO and the up-coming Tivo2Go, we're all needlessly stuck at the 12mbps speed limit, when in fact ALL this could have been avoided by simply having installed a 10 cent ethernet port.

Anyway, maybe this post has cleared up *some* of the fog.

eibgrad


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## bkdelong

It has, thanks. I don't have a lot of money to spend at the moment but transferring files between Tivos at 11MBs is killing me.


----------



## ashu

eibgrad - brilliant! I had no idea those G routers could bridge/AP etc! Time to upgrade my aging D-link B network. Of course, when similar $10-ish deals on that Belkin return 

As for the USB 1.1 issue, don't Series 2 devices have USB 2.0 ports with supposedly only USB 1.1 *drivers*? Aren't there rumors this may be rectified ... ultimately? I would love it if that happened, especially with a fast G network running in the background (via USB-ethernet adapters)!

<edit> I knew the Linksys (with the new opensource firmwares) could bridge/repeat/AP etc, but at best they cost $50 and higher ... I can't afford 3-4 such devices! Again, that Belkin deal/suggestion rocks! As does eibgrad


----------



## bonifacio

I have a Dell TrueMobile 2300 Wireless Broadband Router that connects to internet (supports wireless bridging). Can I use a different brand Router/AP (say the previously discussed Linksys/Belkin) ? Is this feasible at all?

Here's what I envision the setup will be...



> Net <--> Cable Modem <--> Dell AP <--wb--> XXX AP <--> XXX USB ethernet adapter <--> Tivo


I hope it works because I don't want to throw out my existing Dell AP. Don't have a lot of money to burn.

Legend:
AP -- access point
wb -- wireless bridge
XXX -- Your Brand Here


----------



## eibgrad

> _Originally posted by bonifacio _
> *I have a Dell TrueMobile 2300 Wireless Broadband Router that connects to internet (supports wireless bridging). Can I use a different brand Router/AP (say the previously discussed Linksys/Belkin) ? Is this feasible at all?
> 
> Here's what I envision the setup will be...
> 
> I hope it works because I don't want to throw out my existing Dell AP. Don't have a lot of money to burn.
> 
> Legend:
> AP -- access point
> wb -- wireless bridge
> XXX -- Your Brand Here *


Unfortunately, you can't always mix and match APs and routers. In fact, you have to even be careful within the SAME brand. For example, you can mix Belkin F5D7230-4 (standard "G") and Belkin F5D7231-4 (newer "super G", or what Belkin calls "HSM", 125mbps), and of course, their standalone F5D7130 AP. But you can't mix in older Belkin "B" routers and APs.

So you do have to be careful and research your purchasing decisions beforehand. That's what I did, and based on the above information and dirt cheap pricing on these units, it was a no-brainer for me. Heck, you can configure ALL your wireless clients this way. PLUS, now each wireless clients (being an AP) can act as a wireless extender. You simply choose the AP that provides best range and performance, depending on your location in the house! At this point, I've been completely eliminating all my client adapters, w/ all their driver and other compatibility issues, and replacing w/ Belkin routers (as I find good deals) in AP mode. Works great.

Despite the caveats, it doesn't mean you need to throw out your current router, not if you plan appropriately. To keep the description simple and coherent, I left out a detail you may find useful.

I too already had a D-Link DI-624 router which I wished to continue using. Has lots of nice features not found on the Belkin (Belkin is a very basic router). But unfortunately, the D-Link line does NOT typically support WDS (wireless bridging). So what to do? Simple, I disabled the wireless on the DI-624, took one of the Belkin routers, converted it to an AP, and patched it to the D-624 on a LAN port! So now the Belkin and DI-624 work together. The Belkin provides wireless connectivity, BUT, the DI-624 still provides everything else, including DHCP, NAT, firewall, etc. All the Belkin AP is doing is dumping wireless clients (like the Tivo w/ its own AP) on to the DI-624 for the various services.

So now I have the best of both worlds. All the cool features of the D-Link DI-624, PLUS, the wireless connectivity features (i.e., WDS) of the Belkin.

So if you're a little creative, you can usually work around some of the limitations. I should also add that using APs introduces other "issues" you should be aware of. For example, on my Belkin routers, if you purchase the higher end F5D7231-4 (w/ HSM) and only use it as an AP, you're simply wasting money. When the F5D7231-4 is configured in AP mode, it drops back to standard "G"! Also, I was not able to get WPA, nor disable the SSID, while running these in AP mode. Whether these latter two issues are by design or a bug, I don't know. But I didn't consider them deal breakers in my case, esp. at the pricepoint of FREE. Also, it's not like the alternatives provided by Tivo (e.g., Netgear MA111) aren't fraught w/ their own problems/limitations. I just don't want to leave the impression that my solutions is PERFECT, no solution is. But all things considered, I'm quite pleased w/ the results.

As routers, the Belkins are pretty mediocre (OK, but not great), but the fact you can get them so cheap and convert to APs is what's so tantilizing. Heck, you can't buy the client adapters as cheap as these routers, and they're not even compatible w/ Tivo anyway. You can use this very same approach w/ ANY type of bridge, not just wireless. Phoneline, powerline, ANY technology that comes down the pike will work similarly, as long as it provides bridging support to ethernet. It's just that the Belkins have proven exceptional values right now.

eibgrad


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## eibgrad

> _Originally posted by ashutoshsm _
> *eibgrad - brilliant! I had no idea those G routers could bridge/AP etc! Time to upgrade my aging D-link B network. Of course, when similar $10-ish deals on that Belkin return
> 
> As for the USB 1.1 issue, don't Series 2 devices have USB 2.0 ports with supposedly only USB 1.1 drivers? Aren't there rumors this may be rectified ... ultimately? I would love it if that happened, especially with a fast G network running in the background (via USB-ethernet adapters)!
> 
> <edit> I knew the Linksys (with the new opensource firmwares) could bridge/repeat/AP etc, but at best they cost $50 and higher ... I can't afford 3-4 such devices! Again, that Belkin deal/suggestion rocks! As does eibgrad  *


I'm not ready to declare all Series2 Tivo's USB 2.0 ready. Unfortunately, many vendors don't mention it specifically. I have a Toshiba SD-H400, which is a rare exception, it *does* mention USB 2.0 support in the spec. But I suspect it's still using USB 1.1 drivers. I recently picked up a Humax DRT800, and although Series2 as well, their spec makes no mention of USB 2.0, merely says "two USB ports". Call me a cynic, but when a company doesn't mention a feature specifically, it probably means it's NOT there. Few companies miss the opportunity to hype their products. So maybe my Humax has USB 2.0, maybe not, I'm hoping someone can tell me.

We should be clear about something else here as well. To be precise, it's not the "ports" that are at issue, it's the chipsets. Each Tivo comes w/ a USB chipset that determines the maximum performance, either USB 1.1 (12mbps) or USB 2.0 (480mbps). The ONLY sure way to determine whether your Tivo supports USB 2.0 is to crack it open and find the USB chipset on the motherboard. Then research that chipset and determine if its USB 2.0 compatible. If not, no USB 2.0 driver update is going to matter, you'll be stuck w/ USB 1.1 performance, permanently. Again, it's not the ports, but the chipset.

That's why I'm concerned when I purchase a Tivo if it does already have USB 2.0 *chipsets* on the motherboard. Unless the manufacturer tells you, checking the chipsets manually is your only option. So far, I've not had the chance to check my Humax (I'm keeping my fingers crossed). I bought the Humax in spite of not knowing only because I got the unit really cheap, $280 before $100 rebate!

So it's risky to assume that all Series2 are USB 2.0 capable, noone at Tivo or any other credible source has made that claim. The only real case I know of where USB 2.0 is DEFINITIVE is the Toshibas SD-H400 (and perhaps their more recent models, I didn't check). At least these models, w/ a USB 2.0 driver update, will be USB 2.0 performance, one day. Why Tivo finds it so difficult to provide the driver updates for USB 2.0 escapes me, but that's another story.

eibgrad


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## CrispyCritter

> _Originally posted by eibgrad _
> *
> So it's risky to assume that all Series2 are USB 2.0 capable, noone at Tivo or any other credible source has made that claim. .... Why Tivo finds it so difficult to provide the driver updates for USB 2.0 escapes me, but that's another story. *


 Sure people at TiVo have made the claim (or close to it) you just haven't found it in your searches. Keep looking. The only Series2 without USB 2.0 capability are those models beginning with 140.

And there's been lots of articles about some of the difficulties in providing 2.0 drivers, too.


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## ashu

What he said 

And 140s are otherwise essentially identical (sometimes they have a larger power supply?) to 240 TiVos - except for the lack of a USB 2.0 chipset/port.

Of course - USB 2.0 drivers are what we're all waiting for!


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## spelldog

Hi - from this thread I can gather that Tivo doesn't support the G network, only B. Howver, if I have a G router / USB adapter that can run B & G, will the Tivo support the B network or do I have to get a B only router / adapter?


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## eibgrad

> _Originally posted by spelldog _
> *Hi - from this thread I can gather that Tivo doesn't support the G network, only B. Howver, if I have a G router / USB adapter that can run B & G, will the Tivo support the B network or do I have to get a B only router / adapter? *


Let's be a little more precise. Tivo only supports wireless "b" in the sense that if you opt for installation of a wireless network adapter (e.g., Netgear MA111), the Tivo software only has the appropriate drivers for those devices listed on the compatibility list. As of this moment, no wireless "G" adapters are on the compatibility list, so NO, you can't insert a wireless "G" adapter and expect it to work.

However, you can get "G" support with a different configuration. In fact, you can support nearly ANY technology, beit wireless, phoneline, powerline, 2 cups and a string, as long as the technology supports ethernet bridging. IOW, you can go out and buy a wireless "G" bridge, install a "wired" USB ethernet adapter on the Tivo (e.g., Linksys USB100M), patch it to the bridge w/ CAT5, then configure the wireless functions of the bridge so it communicates w/ your wireless router.

Tivo <-- USB 1.1 --> USB100M <-- ethernet --> Bridge <-- "G" --> Router

The reason "G" or any other bridgeable solution works is because all the driver dependencies are moved OUT of the Tivo. All the wireless configuration is confined to the bridge. In fact, Tivo doesn't even know it's ultimately running over wireless. It thinks (because it is) that it's wired. And you configure Tivo as wired, all you typically need is to enable DHCP, that's it. You do all your SSID, WEP/WPA, IP assignments (for the bridge), etc., ON THE BRIDGE!

Again, *ANY* technology can be implemented on the Tivo (or any other ethernet enabled device) in this fashion.

Tivo made a decision early on to provide support for a few specific wireless "b" client adapters, as a convenience. But it's not the best choice because it severely limits support to only those for which Tivo has committed and tested the drivers. Every other client adapter that comes to market subsequently is either not supported, or one has to wait until a future software update does support it (which may never happen).

A second problem is that the ONLY interface Tivo provides to the outside world is USB, and USB 1.1 at that, only 12mbps MAX. So even though you can use a wireless "G" bridge, realize its ultimately limited by the Tivo USB 1.1 drivers. Those of us using wireless "G" bridges and w/ Series2 Tivo's (all of which should have USB 2.0 chipsets at this point) are anxiously awaiting a release of USB 2.0 drivers to go w/ it, so we can fully utilize more of the bandwidth of this "G" equipment. Even wired clients, who should be able to get 50-60mbps (real world) w/ Tivo and 100BaseT, are fighting the same battle -- all of us have a 12mbps speed limit imposed by Tivo. Of course, had Tivo included a simple 10/100 ethernet port, not just USB, we wouldn't have this problem, but that's another story for another day (been hashed to death).

eibgrad


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## spelldog

Thank you - I think I got it. Suffice to say, I think I may just go out and buy a Tivo compatible router / adapter and return what I have. I am basically building this network for the Tivo, in order to get my iPod music to my home theater.


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## eibgrad

> _Originally posted by spelldog _
> *Thank you - I think I got it. Suffice to say, I think I may just go out and buy a Tivo compatible router / adapter and return what I have. I am basically building this network for the Tivo, in order to get my iPod music to my home theater. *


FYI, if you go the wireless bridge route, just make sure you get a USB 2.0 compatible ethernet adapter. When the USB 2.0 drivers are eventually made available by Tivo, you don't want to be STUCK at the 12mbps speed limit of a USB 1.1 ethernet adapter (like the USB100M)! Instead, locate a compatible USB 2.0 ethernet adapter (Linksys USB200M, D-Link DUB-E100, Netgear FA-120), it will provide 480mbps, thus MUCH more potential bandwidth. Won't make any difference NOW, but in a few months, you'll be glad you did.

eibgrad


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## spelldog

I am thinking of keeping the Linksys WRT54G-BP router and picking up a DLink DL 122 USB adapter. 

Is this a good solution?


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## ashu

No - you'd be restricting the wireless component to 802.11B speeds. If you ARE returning the WET11 bridge, buy an 802.11G bridge device for ideal throughput! The USB-200M will not be the bottleneck in your system either way ... that IS good advice eibgrad.


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## spelldog

OK-this is slightly over my head, but I am trying to get it. Just because the Tivo does not support the G adapter, does not mean I can't get G speed...is this correct?

So, I need to keep the Linksys WRT54G-BP router and pick up a:

802.11G bridge (suggestions? The linksys is $130!!!!)
Linksys USB200M

OR I can grab 2 WRT54G-BP routers and convert one to a bridge?


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## ashu

Yes - G speeds without direct support = Title of Thread!

Apparently some routers (including some cheaper Netgear and/or Belkin ones can function as Bridges)

Additionally, TiVo-folk seem to have hinted that G support will not be missing forever. Interpret that as you will. Me - I'm holding off on upgrades because I have a working (B) network in place. Your situation (no network yet) may be ideally suited to go with the fastest setup you can afford that would work NOW (G bridges)

Also: Some game device adapters (perhaps like the DWL-G820) *may* function as suitable bridges too ... or even (configured) as clients, should do the trick!


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## eibgrad

spelldog, remember, you're the one who showed interest in "G", all anyone here is trying to do is explain how "G" support is possible, noone is claiming it's the most economical solution.

Yes, you can always go the simplest route, which is installing a "B" client adapter, like the DWL-122 (or any others Tivo has on the compatibility list). Just make sure that adapter works well w/ your router. If you go out and buy a Netgear 802.11b router, then a D-Link DWL-122 client adapter, clearly the latter will work w/ Tivo (it's on the list), but it's not 100% guaranteed that client adapter will work (or work well) w/ the Netgear router. It *should*, all 802.11b networking should be compatible these days, but there's always the outside chance of problems. Ideally you'd rather stick w/ the same vendor, esp. if you're in the process of building the network from scratch (i.e., otherwise not committed to a vendor).

So if you just want simple "B" support, you need to follow the advice above, find a compatible "B" client adapter on the list, a compatible router, and go for it. It will work, albeit, you'll ALWAYS be limited to "B" performance, which in real world terms, is 4-5mbps, under ideal conditions.

But yes, if you go out and buy a router *and* wireless "G" bridge, it can get expensive. But here's were you need to get more creative.

The only workaround I know to significantly reducing the cost of using a wireless bridge is to find a router that supports WDS (Wireless Distribution System). When and if you do, given these consumer models are very economical to begin with, you've struck gold (but like many a prospector, many miss the opportunity, only a few see the wealth therein). Such a router can be "bridged". IOW, the router ***is*** a bridge, no need to go out and buy an expensive standalone bridge! The bridging capability has been built into the router itself. All it requires is a configuration change to enable it. That's the secret, that's how you keep the cost down, by finding a router w/ WDS support.

As it turns out, Belkin routers (F5D7230-4 and F5D7231-4) support WDS (wireless bridging). This is rather unusual for a consumer-based router in this price range. What's great about it is, you can configure these routers as an AP (Access Point) or a wireless bridge w/ a simple configuration change! And these routers have been selling all over the place for the past several months DIRT CHEAP! I picked up several FREE after rebate. Also picked up a couple more from Office Max and Circuit City for $8 after rebate on Black Friday.

As routers, these Belkin are just average in terms of features and performance, but this ability to convert them to APs or a wireless bridge means you can get "G" support for your Tivo VERY economically. Heck, you usually can't even buy a simple Netgear "G" router *without* WDS support for the price of TWO of these Belkin routers! A heck of a lot cheaper than buying ANY standalone bridge.

It's your choice, but for my money, I would do the following. I'd hunt around for a couple deals on Belkin F5D7230-4 routers. With a little research and patience, these probably can be had for $20 ea, after rebates (if persistent, $10 or less is not unheard of). In the meantime, pick up one of those USB 2.0 ethernet adapters (prefer the D-Link DUB-E100, but the Linksys USB200M or Netgear FA120 will work as well).

When you have all the gear, configure one of the routers (let's call it router "A") as usual, for Internet access by hooking up to your cable/dsl, as appropriate. Once all that works fine, then enable wireless bridging, it's just an option in the admin utility. Also add the WLAN MAC address of the *other* router (let's call it router "B"), this will authorize router "B" to access router "A".

Now go to the Tivo and plug in the USB 2.0 ethernet adapter. Patch it to router "B" on any LAN port. Now configure router "B" for "Access Point" mode (as w/ router "A", it's just a configuration change in the Admin utility). Now router "B" is no longer, technically, a router, it's simply an AP (Access Point).

That's it! Because these two routers support WDS, they will communicate with each other in support of any wired or wireless devices connected to either one of them, it's like magic  You can add more and more Belkin routers as APs in this same fashion, XBOX's, other PCs, anything that supports an ethernet connection, can be added to the wireless network, just so long as you can patch CAT5 cabling to a nearby LAN port on any of these routers/APs! Also, as a bonus, each router/AP is also a range extender, since each AP can act as primary connection point for wireless access. Wireless clients simply select the AP w/ best range and performance, depending on location.

Just to give you an idea of how cheaply this can be done, I picked up my two current Belkin routers for LESS than it costs me for the D-Link DUB-E100 USB 2.0 ethernet adapter (~$23)! If Tivo had already come equipped w/ an ethernet port (and not require me to go out and buy the adapter), the total cost of my "G" network would be virtually nothing, FREE!

So you can, if you know what you're doing, get great performance at a very economical price.

eibgrad


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## spelldog

OK, again thanks to all of you. I think I understand it all much better now ( I printed and really read the whole thread on the train ride home). 

eibgrad - I can get those belkins at CC for $20 a piece, plus the D-Link DUB-E100 and a cable. That seems an easy enough route. 

On the flip side, and I am looking for your expert suggestions here, I found a d-link b router and the tivo supporter dwl-122 for $20 (total). This seems to be the cheapest / easiest solution, though slower. That said, as I mentioned earlier, I am mainly trying to network the tivo in order to publish mp3s to the Tivo and will not be moving files from one tivo to another. Would a b network suffice for this type of transmission, or should I up to the g network?

The way I see it, if the speed is ok for what I intend to use the network for, I can sink $20 on the supported hardware now and then upgrade to a G router / adapter when tivo supports it. 

Thoughts?


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## eibgrad

> _Originally posted by spelldog _
> *OK, again thanks to all of you. I think I understand it all much better now ( I printed and really read the whole thread on the train ride home).
> 
> eibgrad - I can get those belkins at CC for $20 a piece, plus the D-Link DUB-E100 and a cable. That seems an easy enough route.
> 
> On the flip side, and I am looking for your expert suggestions here, I found a d-link b router and the tivo supporter dwl-122 for $20 (total). This seems to be the cheapest / easiest solution, though slower. That said, as I mentioned earlier, I am mainly trying to network the tivo in order to publish mp3s to the Tivo and will not be moving files from one tivo to another. Would a b network suffice for this type of transmission, or should I up to the g network?
> 
> The way I see it, if the speed is ok for what I intend to use the network for, I can sink $20 on the supported hardware now and then upgrade to a G router / adapter when tivo supports it.
> 
> Thoughts? *


For $20, it's hard to go wrong. A "b" network will probably be just fine for mp3's, even a high-quality 320bit stream is well within the capacity of the "b" protocol (not considering any concurrent activity, like Tivo updates), only consumes about 8-10% of the bandwidth (assuming 4-5mbps).

The killer that drivers everyone to "G" is MRV (multi room viewing). In this case, you can eat up a LOT of bandwidth w/ a high quality video stream. What people most want is real time performance, so they don't end up w/ excessive buffering and streaming interruptions. When Tivo2Go comes into play, bandwidth will also be an issue, but realtime performance is not as critical.

But for light duty, like mp3's and photos, "b" should be fine.

eibgrad


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## saeba

eibgrad,

Thanks for all this great information on access points! I've been looking for precisely this kind of information from someone who's setup such a network!

I read thru your post though, and one last question to ensure I've got it: Do these Belkin routers, when acting as access points, allow multiple connections to be simultaneously bridged in to the network? Or is it strictly one-to-one like the game adapters? Reason: I have a need for connecting a couple of devices up to my "G" net at a remote location (Xbox and Tivo).

Thanks!!


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## spelldog

The belkins are advestised at Compusa this week for $10 after rebates.


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## ashu

Yeah - echo that. I picked up 2 last week at CC for 20 AR, they're going back ... huzzah for CompUSA. If I remember to!

note: they work as advertised/described - mine are running bridge/AP mode sweetly, and mighty fast!

Thanks, eibgrad and others.


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## JiAvW

Using the #4... code, will this arrangement work for the first setup call?

I've bought a tivo for my parents for xmas and their phone line is messed up and the only working outlet is centrally located far from any tvs (they have a cordless system for the phones throughout the house. Furthermore, internet is wireless (linksys 802.11g router). I have Vonage at my apartment and I don't particularly want to drive it there to hook it up over the internet unless I have to.


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## ashu

Wireless won't work for a first call ... however, if you used a G (or B) Bridge (first correctly configured while connected to a PC), connected to an ethernet USB adapter on the TiVo (which doesn't know better and thinks its connected via USB-eth - which it IS!) - then it MIGHT work. Some adapters work, some don't, on some TiVos. Dpends on the phase of the moon and such. Sorry ... thats how it is.

In my experience, the Belkin F5D5050 and the Linksys USB-100M and USB-200M have a good chance of working for first Guided Setup.

But a wireless USB adapter WILL NOT work.

Also, if you consider a bridging solution, bear in mind that different brands don't like to co-exist as WDS/bridging is not a defined spec, per se - every manufacturer seems to implement it differently. So if your Linksys G router is capable of it, it'll likely only work with another IDENTICAL Linksys router! Or a standalone WET11 (or 802.11G equivalent) bridge!


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## gillis

Guys,

Sorry if this is not the place to Post this but I have a question which I think I know the answer to. I just got Tivo for Christmas and I have it set up with the following, I have a wireless network with Linksys Wireless-G Broadband Router WRT54G.

I have connected Tivo to the router above using a Linksys USB200M. But what I would like to do is not have a cable running across the rooms so I would like to buy a bridge to connect the Router to and then connect the Tivo the bridge. 

I have read many posts and I am seeing conflicting reports - what wireless bridge should I purchase for this.

Thanks in advance.

John


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## ashu

Usuually, since the Wireless Bridging specification is unofficial and unenforced, every manufacturer will only make an attempt to ensure that its products (that ARE capable of bridging) bridge with (some of) its other products. or the same one, at least.

If your router is bridging capable (with the Linksys or the other Sveasoft firmare people talk about), then buy an identical one (hopefully the same sub-version number - check around the UPC etc to ensure this - and give it a shot!


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## tivoboyjr

About a year ago I tried to get HMO working with my wireless-B network, and it just would not work. I used the Linksys WUSB11 adapters, and also eventually tried the approved adapters by Netgear, D-Link and Microsoft as well.

I tried it on two different Series 2 Tivos in different places in my house. I never got a signal. The network ssid did show up a few times, but still no signal. I could have my notebook PC next to the Tivo and plug the adapter into the notebook and it worked with no problems. I also got a 50 ft. ethernet cable and connected it to both of my Tivos just to see if that would work, and it always did with no problems.

I spent a lot of time talking to "senior" tech support people at Tivo and they could never figure it out. I have a Linksys router and one of the tech support people told me to get a signal booster, which I did, and it didn't make any difference. One of the Tivo techs told me that the Tivos required a much stronger signal than a PC does, and my Tivos apparently are too far away from the router. I never really bought this, because they aren't that far away.

I finally gave up and thought I'd pay someone to run wires in my house, but a year has gone by and I haven't done that. I'd still like to get the wireless network to work.

Is it worth it to try to set up a G network using the methods discussed here? If B doesn't work, will this make any difference? Also, will the game adapters or bridges make a difference? As I understand it, that tricks the Tivo into thinking it's connected to a wired network; maybe that would make a difference for me?

I am not a pro with networking by any means, and this was really frustrating the first time around. I tried to get this going for several weeks before finally giving up. I'd really appreciate any suggestions!


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## eibgrad

> _Originally posted by tivoboyjr _
> *About a year ago I tried to get HMO working with my wireless-B network, and it just would not work. I used the Linksys WUSB11 adapters, and also eventually tried the approved adapters by Netgear, D-Link and Microsoft as well.
> 
> I tried it on two different Series 2 Tivos in different places in my house. I never got a signal. The network ssid did show up a few times, but still no signal. I could have my notebook PC next to the Tivo and plug the adapter into the notebook and it worked with no problems. I also got a 50 ft. ethernet cable and connected it to both of my Tivos just to see if that would work, and it always did with no problems.
> 
> I spent a lot of time talking to "senior" tech support people at Tivo and they could never figure it out. I have a Linksys router and one of the tech support people told me to get a signal booster, which I did, and it didn't make any difference. One of the Tivo techs told me that the Tivos required a much stronger signal than a PC does, and my Tivos apparently are too far away from the router. I never really bought this, because they aren't that far away.
> 
> I finally gave up and thought I'd pay someone to run wires in my house, but a year has gone by and I haven't done that. I'd still like to get the wireless network to work.
> 
> Is it worth it to try to set up a G network using the methods discussed here? If B doesn't work, will this make any difference? Also, will the game adapters or bridges make a difference? As I understand it, that tricks the Tivo into thinking it's connected to a wired network; maybe that would make a difference for me?
> 
> I am not a pro with networking by any means, and this was really frustrating the first time around. I tried to get this going for several weeks before finally giving up. I'd really appreciate any suggestions! *


One of the distinct advantages of using bridges is, it takes ALL the wireless configuration crap out of the Tivo, and let's face it, that's 99% of the battle when wireless fails w/ Tivo for whatever reasons. Even if I only wanted "b" wireless support, I'd *still* go the bridging route for these same reasons. You have so little control over Tivo and the configuration, beyond the few parameters it provides, it's just a PITA. Sometimes it does'nt have the right drivers, only supports "b", no WPA, etc. I understand the motivation on Tivo's part, to make it simple, but frankly as soon as something doesn't work, then what? There's not much you can do to diagnose the problem, or correct it. But if all that wireless configuration can be confined to something you ***DO*** control, like a bridge, now you have something you can work with. And since a wired configuration for Tivo is trivial, it greatly simplifies the Tivo config.

So yes, for my money, installing USB ethernet adapters is the ONLY way to go (USB 2.0 recommended for "G"). Then using Belkin "G" routers w/ WDS support, or bridgable gaming adapters, standalone access points, whatever you prefer, bring it together. Now you're NEVER dependent on Tivo for drivers or waiting for them to support the next great thing, like 802.11n. And if in the future, you find it practical to go "wired", it's just as trivial, no new equipment, just some patch cables.

Again, using the bridging approach takes Tivo *completely* out of the picture. Whatever problems ensue, no need to call Tivo TS, pointless, since all your problems lie outside their domain (which in this case is good news).

If you want specific recommendations, you'll need to provide some info on your current network config, equipment, Tivo(s), etc.

eibgrad


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## tivoboyjr

Thank you, eibgrad! As I was reading through this thread, that little lightbulb above my head went on - it would be so great if I can get this to work!

I currently have a Linksys Wireless B router, model BEFW11S4 and a Linksys wireless signal booster WSB24.

I have one Series 1 Tivo and a Series 2. With reference to my earlier post, I had bought another Series 2 to replace the Series 1 in hopes that I could use HMO, but I returned it when I couldn't get it to work. If I can get this working, I'd get another Series 2 so I can take full advantage of HMO.

I was thinking that if I'm going to do this, I'd just get the Belkin G routers and upgrade my network to G while I'm at it, but I'm not seeing those dirt-cheap Belkin routers anywhere. I've searched all over the web using those model numbers you mentioned, and the best price I'm seeing is $59.95. I saw mention of "CC" which I took to be Circuit City, but Circuit City has them for $69 after rebates.

What would you recommend that I do if I just want to try this out and see if it will work on my one Series 2? I'm not at all opposed to upgrading my network to G if this works for me, but I'd like to start as simple and cheaply as possible just to see if I can do it.

And as mentioned, I don't have much experience with networks, so I'm probably a little slow to grasp some of this. I've built computers and have added hard drives to my Tivos, so I do have some technical ability, but I just haven't worked with networks much. I set up my WiFi network, but that doesn't involve much more than just plugging everything in. Reading this thread was the first time I had heard of a "bridge."


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## eibgrad

> _Originally posted by tivoboyjr _
> *Thank you, eibgrad! As I was reading through this thread, that little lightbulb above my head went on - it would be so great if I can get this to work!
> 
> I currently have a Linksys Wireless B router, model BEFW11S4 and a Linksys wireless signal booster WSB24.
> 
> I have one Series 1 Tivo and a Series 2. With reference to my earlier post, I had bought another Series 2 to replace the Series 1 in hopes that I could use HMO, but I returned it when I couldn't get it to work. If I can get this working, I'd get another Series 2 so I can take full advantage of HMO.
> 
> I was thinking that if I'm going to do this, I'd just get the Belkin G routers and upgrade my network to G while I'm at it, but I'm not seeing those dirt-cheap Belkin routers anywhere. I've searched all over the web using those model numbers you mentioned, and the best price I'm seeing is $59.95. I saw mention of "CC" which I took to be Circuit City, but Circuit City has them for $69 after rebates.
> 
> What would you recommend that I do if I just want to try this out and see if it will work on my one Series 2? I'm not at all opposed to upgrading my network to G if this works for me, but I'd like to start as simple and cheaply as possible just to see if I can do it.
> 
> And as mentioned, I don't have much experience with networks, so I'm probably a little slow to grasp some of this. I've built computers and have added hard drives to my Tivos, so I do have some technical ability, but I just haven't worked with networks much. I set up my WiFi network, but that doesn't involve much more than just plugging everything in. Reading this thread was the first time I had heard of a "bridge." *


A lot of people have had good success w/ the D-Link DWL-122 wireless "b" adapters. They're about $20-30 each. Not sure exactly what is contributing to your current (or past) problems, so it's hard for me to positively recommend continuing down this path w/ wireless "b" client adapters, but that *is* what most people are doing. Others use the Netgear MA111, can probably be had for about the same price, although it has been popping up here and there for $10-15 after rebate, most recently CompUSA. If you can find such wireless "b" client adapters that work for you, it's certainly economical.

That said, w/ respect to the Belkin routers, timing is everything! These have been selling LOTS of places for $10 (or less) AR (after rebate). Heck, CompUSA had them for $10 AR only this past week. Staples, Buy.com, Office Max, Circuit City, Best Buy, all of them, have had these routers selling in the $10-30 over the past 3-4 months (btw, Nov 26, Black Friday, was *the* day to jump on this, Office Max and Circuit City had them for $10 and $8 after rebate, respectively, even pricematched them to get both for $16!). Does take some patience, but barely a week or two doesn't go by before another one is on sale. Suggest you hang around the bargain hunting sites, like Slickdeals, Fatwallet, Ben's Bargains, xpBargains, Spoofee, among many, many others. Heck, they were even selling them at Home Depot, of all places, the end of Dec for $10 AR!!! Sooner or later, it'll be back.

If you want an economical "bridged" solution, this is by far the cheapest way to go. In fact, my USB 2.0 wireless adapters cost me MORE than these routers. (btw, got smart and picked up a couple more D-Link DUB-E100 adapters on eBay, 2 for $30 shipped). If you go w/ any other bridging solution, it gets considerably more expensive. At that point you have to simply decide if the cost/benefit equation works for YOU. Without knowing specifically why your current attempts have failed, it's hard to recommend anything else but a bridge since you may be spinning your wheels by continuing on the wireless "b" client adapter approach. But then again, maybe newer releases of the Tivo software are more "friendly" to revisiting your past approaches. Your guess is as good as mine.

If you like, I can PM (private message) you when I find a deal, or else PM me your email address and I'll notify you if I see something.

If you want a high-end, powerful, wireless "G" bridged solution, and *cheaply", it does take patience and planning. Start researching your USB ethernet adapters, like I did, perhaps on eBay. You'll need these anyway, and these are rarely discounted by retail chains. Again, got my most recent 2 from an eBay dealers only a few days ago for $30 (total). Then be patient, the Belkin's *will* come 

eibgrad


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## kent_thompson

I am using 
Humax TiVo 2 80Hr, Linksys USB200M, WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter 

Linksys WRT54G Wireless-G Broadband Router 

I can connect the Tivo to the Tivo site to do updates through broadband, no my phone line still isn't connected, but I can't see the tivo on my network. It assigned an IP 192.168.1.103 and I try to log on, but can't. Why can the tivo access the internet, but I cannot access the tivo. I downloaded the tivo desktop and it doesn't recognize the tivo either.


----------



## eibgrad

> _Originally posted by kent_thompson _
> *I am using
> Humax TiVo 2 80Hr, Linksys USB200M, WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter
> 
> Linksys WRT54G Wireless-G Broadband Router
> 
> I can connect the Tivo to the Tivo site to do updates through broadband, no my phone line still isn't connected, but I can't see the tivo on my network. It assigned an IP 192.168.1.103 and I try to log on, but can't. Why can the tivo access the internet, but I cannot access the tivo. I downloaded the tivo desktop and it doesn't recognize the tivo either. *


95% of time, in a situation where you can connect to the Tivo site, but can't use the Tivo Desktop, it's a local firewall on your PC that's preventing access. For example, if you have Microsoft ICF enabled, or Norton Internet Security or Zone Alarm installed, etc., ALL these employ a software firewall that, by default, prevents access to that PC, in the same way your hardware router prevents access to your network at large. To confirm this is the problem, you need to disable ALL local firewalls on that PC. If you can then get Tivo Desktop working, it proves the local firewall is the issue. Now go into the configuration for the firewall and allow access to the application and/or ports used.

eibgrad


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## kent_thompson

What about the other 5% of the time. I have all firewalls disabled and it still doesn't work.


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## ashu

Can your PC ping the TiVo?
(Open a command prompt - Windows PC I assume - using Start, Run, cmd and type
ping 192.168.1.103)

Post your PC's network connectivity info (type of adapter, IP, DHCP or static - if latter, then Gateway and DNS).

While you're at it, post detailed info about the exact specification of the TiVo's network connectivity.

Heck, post the result of _ipconfig /all_ from the command prompt you ran on the PC, too.


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## kent_thompson

Yes I can ping the tivo...it has changed to 192.168.1.106 it pings 0%lost 
Min 3ms max 89ms ave 24ms.


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## kent_thompson

Also, under the tivo server properties a tivo is recognized at 192.168.1.106, but when I go to the transfer area is says that no tivo's are recognized


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## ashu

This particular thread is more about using 802.11G Wireless Bridges to speed up a wireless network above current B speeds.

Sounds more like an HMO/TTG problem ... repost it in the parent section (make a new thread AFTER searching for existing issues) ... others may be better able to help you.

Good luck


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## Jessebo

> _Originally posted by vlxjim _
> *Just to let you folks know you can get real time transfers in best quality. I just setup two TiVo 2 80Hr with two of the Linksys USB200M USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapters, each hooked to a Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter (works just like the WET54G Wireless-G Ethernet Bridge but cost less and in a different case for the gaming market). Routed by a Linksys WRT54G Wireless-G Broadband Router. The high gain antenna on the WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter get a much better signal than the WUSB11. I get 100% on singal and link with this setup with both TiVo's 75+ feet from the router (one up stairs one down stairs). I now have a 54G network the TiVo's USB port is now the bottle neck. I can now watch in real time the transfer of best quality video. Watching a two hour movie in best quality is no problem. And the Med. quality transfers are three to four time as fast.
> 
> I hope this helps some of you out.
> 
> Jim  *


right now, I have my tivo hooked up using an 802.11b adapter, and I was wondering, why you would need the usb200m? couldn't you just hook the WGA54G game adapter directly to the tivo?


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## bonifacio

Standalone Series 2 don't have an ethernet port. Linksys USB200M is a USB to Ethernet Adapter. Then you attached the game adapter to it.


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## tivoboyjr

I saw some D-Link wireless-G equipment at Compusa with some rebates and decided to make the plunge and see if I can get this to work. So far, I'm not having much luck.

I have the DI-624 router and bought a DWL-2100AP access point to connect to the Tivo (via a Netgear USB 2.0 to ethernet converter). I hooked the access point up to the router and configured it as a client. I then connected the AP and USB adapter to the Tivo. 

I first tried "find IP address automatically" but that didn't work. For DHCP Client ID, I left it blank. The message I get is "The DHCP server was not found on the network."

I've since tried entering everything myself, but am getting error messages that way, too.

My TCP/IP settings are
IP Address: 192.168.0.51
Subnet Mask: 255.255.255.0
Gateway: 192.168.0.1
DNS Address: 0.0.0.0

I'm not sure what to enter for DNS so I left it at zeroes. The message I get is "local gateway unreachable."

I thought it might be easier to set this up using the access point versus trying to reconfigure a router to use to connect to the Tivo, but maybe I was wrong.


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## ashu

Make sure the DWL-2100 is doing its thing right ... disconnect your PC's ethernet cable from the router, and use ONLY the DWL-2100 to access the router. And thr web, etc. This should confrm it.

I assume the DWL-2100 takes on the etc.50 IP? And your router is etc.1? The 2100 *should* propagate DHCP requests to the router (although my experience is limited to the simpler 800, 810, 900 versions) if you set your TiVo to 'everything automatic', but feel free to do it manually ... (etc = 192.168.0)
IP - etc..51
subnet - 255.255.255.0
Gateway - etc.1
DNS - etc.1
(Gateway COULD also be etc.50 - should work)

Also, you ARE using the 2100 in either Bridge or Client mode, right? Not AP mode! And Infrastructure, not DHCP! The PC test should confirm the 2100 is working/configured fine.


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## Tippy

Okay, I understand that this is probably within this thread but I'm not very computer savvy and I'm new to wireless so please forgive my naivety. 

I currently have two Series 2 models hooked together via a CAT5 cable through a USB200M USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapter on each TIVO. This has worked great for transferring programs but now I want to use the Tivo-To-Go (when I get it). 

I use a traditional dial-up for my daily connection and to access the Internet through my computer (no cable or DSL line yet). However, my laptop is wireless enabled and Id like to begin transferring programs from the Tivo units when I get the software upgrade. 

My question is how to link the TiVo units to my laptop through a wireless connection. Is there a USB splitter which I can hook up to each unit? Would I then have to have a wireless device on each unit? And, what would specifically need for my laptop. Or, would it be easier to just set-up a completely wireless network between the Tivos and my laptop? 

Again, I realize this information is probably in this thread or elsewhere but it is a bit over my head. Any help with the specific devices required (and or recommended) woudl be appreciated. Thanks in advance for helping a newbie.

Todd


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## ashu

You would need a wireless Access Point and Router.

Since you only have broadband, for now I would recommend
a. Buy a nice G wireless router, place it near one of the TiVos and cable them both to it. (Since you already have a cable running from one to the other)
b. Set up the wireless network settings (with the router connected with a wire to a PC/laptop!) for your laptop to access the router (use security - WPA, or at least WEP, preferably both!)

Of course, bear in mind that you will have to have an 'upgrade' path for when you do get broadband internet access. You will need your cable/DSL modem to be placeable near the router (or vice versa), and still need to be able to connect your two TiVos (preferably wired, but if wireless is OK, and TiVo has released G support by then - that should be even easier).

Good luck, and feel free to ask more questions.

Also, this thread is more (to advise people) about using a Wireless G bridge-type-device behind a USB 2.0 based ethernet adapter to link TiVos together with 802.11G, despite the current lack of 'direct' G adapter support by the TiVo. So your question does ideally belong elsewhere ... perhaps a more generic TiVo networking type thread?


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## yakima2k

New member, first post. Glad I stumbled on this site - the official TIVO "support" pages are sort of a misnomer when you're trying to configure a network.

Anyway, along the lines of this thread I was hoping to confirm a network setup. I've got an all D-link wireless G network right now to take advantage of their proprietary Xtreme G acceleration.

If I understand the instructions in this thread right, to add TIVO to this network wirelessly without disrupting the uniformity (all Airplus Xtreme G components) I would need the DWL-G810 bridge (D-link's xtreme G bridge) and then I could use any TIVO-compatible wired USB adapter to link the bridge and the TIVO, right? In my case I suppose I would be getting the DUB-E100 to ensure USB 2.0 compatibility if the drivers are ever upgraded.

If understand right, the result will still be slow TIVO throughput b/c of the USB adapter limitations, but I won't have to worry about network compatibility with the TIVO and I won't have to worry about jeopardizing my overall network throughput of my other devices by introducing a slower device to the network.

There's lots of great advice in this thread - I just want to make sure I've picked up on the right knowledge for my situation. Thanks!


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## ashu

You got it right!

And while the DUB-E100 should work, pick the cheapest USB 2.0 adapter you can find on the market. The Linksys USB200M is often on sale. And while it looks flimsy, none of my 3 have broken yet 

Also remember that your Bridge (the G810) will also support being connected to a hub/switch and having multiple devices behind it - TiVos, game consoles, PCs etc! Saving you money on wireless network adapters in the long run! So go buy that second TiVo  

Remeber to operate the G810 in either client or Bridging mode. Client (with static IP) works best, IIRC (used to use a 802.11B DWl-900AP+) Your devices (TiVo etc) can be static IP, DHCP or static DHCP - your D-Link router will support that.


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## yakima2k

Thanks. Can you discuss the difference between client and bridging mode a little more in depth? I know just enough about networking to be dangerous.

Also, I've already got a gaming adapter for my PS2. Anyone know if I could just put a switch behind that and connect both TIVO and PS2 or does the bridge provide some additional function above and beyond the adapter? Unless I can use the gaming adapter as a substitute bridge, it sounds like it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a bridge and a switch and then try to resell the gaming adapter and recoup some $$$. Don't want to get too far off topic, but any recommendations on ethernet switches?


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## ashu

The concept of Bridging *usually* implies two consistent, similar (if not identical) devices wirelessly connected exclusively to each other. Different manufacturers implement this differently. Belkin throws in a hybrid router/AP/Bridge Mode for its routers IF they're IDENTICAL! The G810 MAY bridge with the D-Link router, if the router has this capability - but you will be best served with Client mode.

Any switch should do fine - Linksys, D-Link, Trenwarde, Siemens, SMC etc etc - any brand should do. Make sure its an autosensing 10/100 switch (not a hub - although the performance ramifications of that difference shouldn't affect your network and having a TiVo and PS2 connected to it). Pick the cheapest available major-ish brand one - its difficult to screw up a switch, they all work well!

I imagine having only ONE wireless connection active (G810 in client mode to the Router) as opposed to TWO (Game Adapter and G810) should be preferable. My (older b) network always started to get disproportionately slower as I added wireless devices. Subtle, but noticeable. And your configuration and number of points-of-potential-issues is also halved


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## tivoboyjr

I returned the Dlink equipment I had bought because I couldn't get it to work - after a lot of back and forth, a Dlink tech told me the router was defective and said I should return it.

I went to Circuit City and got two of the Belkin F5D7231-4 routers and configured one as an access point to use with my Tivo, but I can't get that setup to work, either. Do I set it up as an access point or a bridge, or both? I've been using it just as an AP, and that isn't working. I've read through this thread a few times now, and I feel like I'm missing something. I've tried Tivo on "Obtain an IP Address Automatically" and also manually configured it, and it won't connect. I either get a "connection failed" message or "gateway not found" or "the DHCP server was not found on the network." Once, it told me the settings seemed valid, but still wouldn't connect. In HMO, if I enter the router address (or the AP address) it says "server not found."

I haven't been able to connect to the internet using my notebook with an ethernet cable and the AP, either.

I was able to get connected and also access HMO by using a Netgear game adapter with my old Linksys B router, but that was intended to just be an experiment, because the game adapter is very expensive and these Belkin routers are pretty cheap at the moment. Also, if I'm going to be spending on networking equipment, I'd like to be able to move up to a G router.

When I tried the netgear game adapter with the Belkin router (instead of using the access point), the tivo did show up in the DHCP client list and I was able to ping the tivo, but still couldn't connect.

I called Belkin tech support and the guy wasn't really helpful. He kept telling me to just connect the AP to the router via an ethernet cable instead of using it for wireless access, which defeats the purpose, and he had never heard of Tivo, so I didn't spend a lot of time with him.

I'd really appreciate any suggestions. Thanks


----------



## alex25

I'm attempting to do the two Linksys router set-up as described in Post #97. I've upgraded the firmware to the sveasoft and configured the routers per the instructions. However, I cannot get TiVO to recognize the wireless network connection. Is there anything special that I need to do in the TiVO menu to get this to work? I have a feeling that the two routers are talking to one another, but the TiVO doesn't appear to be picking that up. The set-up I have is as follows: 1 Linksys WRT54G router at my PC, 1 WRT54G router connected to the TiVO via a Linksys USB200M. 

Any help would be most appreciated.


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## ashu

tivoboyjr ...
- set the first Belkin router (connected to broadband or your existing home router) to enable wireless bridging
- config the 2nd Belkin router (connected to the TiVo via a USB eth adapter) to Access Point AND Wireless bridge. Enter each other's WLAN MAC ids (see under router, label on left usually) - so they can authorize each other and look for each other when they bridge

alex25 - your Tivoi needs to think its on a wired network, as the USB200M is a Wired USB-eth adapter. Once your routers are bridging fine (test with 2 pcs/laptopt if possible) THEN config the TiVo's settings for static or DHCP per your setup


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## alex25

Ashu-

The router that is wired to my PC is the DHCP. I had TiVO "Obtain IP Address from DHCP" and it received one. Would the TiVO be able to get an IP address if the router that was connected to it was not communicating with the router at my PC?


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## ashu

Nope - it wouldn't get an IP if the two routers were not succesfully Bridged. Seems you're doing fine.

Can your PC ping the TiVo's IP address? If you have 7.1 and the new Desktop, can your PC see the TiVo?

Can you see the Music and Photos served with Desktop (or whatever application) from the PC?


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## markandjenn

Ashu -

Can any router be used in such a way?

Specifically, Best Buy is has the D-Link DI-524 found here for $20 after rebates. If I bought 3 of these, one for my PC and 1 for each of my 2 TiVos, can I bridge the three of them together?


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## tivoboyjr

Thanks for your help, ashu. I've got them set up the way you described, but the access point still isn't working. If I plug it in to the ethernet port on my notebook, I can't access the internet and it doesn't show up on the DHCP client list for the router.

I've restarted the computers a couple of times to see if that would help, but there's no change.


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## ashu

Hmmy, test the USB-eth adapter by plugging it into your laptop's USB port. (It may need to have its drivers installed - but probably not). Remeber to disable your existing network connection and enable this, and in its settings, specify Obtain IP automatically (DHCP).

The adapter may be bad.


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## ashu

> _Originally posted by markandjenn _
> *Ashu -
> 
> Can any router be used in such a way?
> 
> Specifically, Best Buy is has the D-Link DI-524 found here for $20 after rebates. If I bought 3 of these, one for my PC and 1 for each of my 2 TiVos, can I bridge the three of them together? *


No - the router must have bridging support built-in.

I'd head to the dlink website and download the manual for this router (they have PDFs for everything!). My DLink 614+ did not have Bridging built in.

Also, bear in mind that since this is not an official 802.11 group spec, every manuf. implements it differently, often across their own product lines!

The Belkin G router is also $20 (after rebates) this week somewhere - OD, CompUSA? Model 7230-4 or 7231-4 (buy all identical). Prefer the White box 7230 - although the (older) red box will also work with a mixed config with the newer ones (I have one old, two new) Also, remember that most rebates are only valid one-per-household and address


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## ashu

NOTES: for anyone using MORE THAN ONE Belkin 72xx-4 router in bridged/AP mode ...

After much angst and hair-pulling my current config is slightly modified
- Each 'terminal' router's Bridge menu only has the MAC ID of ONE OF the other G routers in a chain kind of system. Having all router MACs as permitted routers did not cut it - I think this router's Bridging has some 'indecisiveness' built in - ping times were off the chart (more than a second)  
(What do I mean by 'Terminal'? - Well - the one G router connected to my main B router is a terminal router, and the 3rd one connected to two bedroom TiVos is terminal. The one in the den connected to the PCs has MAC ids of both the other two as allowed bridge APs. Yes - the TiVos in the bedroom and the TiVos downstairs now HAVE TO hope through )

- Now ALL of them are running in AP/Bridge mode, and not doing ANY routing or DHCP. One of them is connected (LAN port to LAN port - not WAN/uplink!) to my old B router (which serves up a B network for my only B TiVo - the one I'll sell soon, adapter and all  ) and every device in my network is hooked to LAN ports on either the old B router, or the 3 G routers' LAN ports.
- The 3 G routers are now free to run in G-exclusive mode, SSID disabled, WPA - because the only B device (TiVo incapable of WPA) on my soon-to-be-sold or gifted TiVo is served by the 'main' D-Link router.

I finally have consistent low ping times, quick reaction/transfer times and better feel-good WPA security (with the WEP "hole" to be plugged soon too)


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## yakima2k

> _Originally posted by ashutoshsm _
> *You got it right!
> 
> And while the DUB-E100 should work, pick the cheapest USB 2.0 adapter you can find on the market. The Linksys USB200M is often on sale. And while it looks flimsy, none of my 3 have broken yet
> 
> Also remember that your Bridge (the G810) will also support being connected to a hub/switch and having multiple devices behind it - TiVos, game consoles, PCs etc! Saving you money on wireless network adapters in the long run! So go buy that second TiVo
> 
> Remeber to operate the G810 in either client or Bridging mode. Client (with static IP) works best, IIRC (used to use a 802.11B DWl-900AP+) Your devices (TiVo etc) can be static IP, DHCP or static DHCP - your D-Link router will support that. *


Okay, I just got off the phone with D-link products support and the guy I talked to suggested that I wouldn't be able to put a switch behind the G810, that the G810 will only support one ethernet device attached and not switches. I asked him why the hell D-link sells switches and he said it was only to increase ports on a router or access point. He then gave me the ridiculous suggestion to buy two 2100AP access points at $100 apiece to bridge the network and then use hard wired ethernet adapters to connect the multiple devices to the AP. But he says I need two AP's because the DI-624 router won't bridge with the access point, which has to be a lie.

This all sounds like complete baloney to me. If anyone can tell me if there is any truth to the story this guy gave me please let me know. I refuse to believe that the only way to network multiple ethernet devices is either with multiple bridges or this complicated and expensive access point setup.

Has anyone actually put a switch behind a bridge and had it work?

What I've got on the way is a DSS 5+ ethernet switch, a G810 bridge, and the DUB-E100 adapter, my intent being to connect my Playstation 2 (currently networked using a gaming adapter) and my RS-TX20 behind the bridge and connected to the switch.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## tivoboyjr

> _Originally posted by ashutoshsm _
> *Hmmy, test the USB-eth adapter by plugging it into your laptop's USB port. (It may need to have its drivers installed - but probably not). Remeber to disable your existing network connection and enable this, and in its settings, specify Obtain IP automatically (DHCP).
> 
> The adapter may be bad. *


Ashu, I wasn't even using the USB adapter in this test. I just plugged a ethernet cable into the AP/bridge and the notebook computer. I am sure the adapter works, btw, because I had used it with the netgear game adapter and my Linksys router.

I read the "notes" you posted re Belkin routers. Re note one, each router just has one mac address listed, as you instructed earlier. The router has the AP mac address and the AP has the router mac address.

I don't really get note 2. FYI, when I'm done with this, I will have two tivos connected this way (I'm starting with just one), a notebook connected via PCMCIA card and two other computers hard-wired. This is my "old" setup via the Linksys router - and subtracting the tivo.


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## ashu

yakima2k, a switch behind a bridge device RUNNING in CLIENT mode *should* work. My DWL-900AP+ running in router mode supports
- a switch with additional ethernet devices connected to it, clamoring for DHCP IP even
- a router, with the DWL-900AP+ connected to the WAN/uplink port

Does the pdf manual on D-Link's website show support for client mode?


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## ashu

> _Originally posted by tivoboyjr _
> *Ashu, I wasn't even using the USB adapter in this test. I just plugged a ethernet cable into the AP/bridge and the notebook computer. I am sure the adapter works, btw, because I had used it with the netgear game adapter and my Linksys router.
> 
> I read the "notes" you posted re Belkin routers. Re note one, each router just has one mac address listed, as you instructed earlier. The router has the AP mac address and the AP has the router mac address.
> 
> I don't really get note 2. FYI, when I'm done with this, I will have two tivos connected this way (I'm starting with just one), a notebook connected via PCMCIA card and two other computers hard-wired. This is my "old" setup via the Linksys router - and subtracting the tivo. *


(Ignore my note 2 - only of issue if you have 3 or more 7230-4 or 7231-4)

tivoboyjr ... hmm, I can't imagine why the 7231's won't work. Maybe one is faulty? I have 7230-4's (2 2004 variants, and one 2003 variant) and they all play toegterh real nice despite slightly different (up-to-date) firmware versions.

Maybe the 7231 is different? Have you studied the addendum (PDF) document about bridging (I attached it - its off the 7230 page on Belkin's website).

Are you uing the same subnet? Both routers (first one in router/bridge mode, second one in bridge/ap mode) MUST be on the same subnet
Try 192.168.0.10, 192.168.0.11 respectively!

Try this ...

- Keep the 2 routers in one place, by your main PC and cable modem (or DSL or whatever)
- PC ethernet - static IP 192.168.0.100, DNS 192.168.0.10 (the IP of main router/AP/bridge), Gateway (same: .10)
- set one 7231-4 up as the router/bridge, and ensure that the pc that is hardwired to it can connect to the internet
- then connect the PC to one of the LAN ports on the second router, and access that 2nd routers config page (at http://192.168.0.11) ensuring its Access Point Mode is enabled and its bridging is enabled with the WLAN MAC id of the other router permitted (NOT the LAN or WAN MAC!)
- the PC SHOULD be able to access the internet via the wireless link

Replicate on the TiVo. Of course, DHCP would work too - since only the main router (.10) will be a DHCP server in this scenario.

To set up wireles networking, if you're having issues - always go the simplest route to eliminate potential failure points - no WEP/WPA, no B mode (54G-only), turn off the 'Turbo or Frameburst' modes etc etc. Then build them in after you get it working with the basics.

<edit> attachemtn's too big - its available online (Wireless bridge.pdf on their site)


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## yakima2k

> _Originally posted by ashutoshsm _
> *yakima2k, a switch behind a bridge device RUNNING in CLIENT mode *should* work. My DWL-900AP+ running in router mode supports
> - a switch with additional ethernet devices connected to it, clamoring for DHCP IP even
> - a router, with the DWL-900AP+ connected to the WAN/uplink port
> 
> Does the pdf manual on D-Link's website show support for client mode? *


The G810 manual says it has two settings which D-link calls "infrastructure" mode and "ad hoc" mode. The way the diagrams in the manual show, "ad hoc" is for interconnecting devices, like if you want your laptop and pc to share files and share a printer. "Infrastructure" is for connecting devices to a single router or access point.

Do you think the "infrastructure" setting is the same as "client" mode?

I can't understand conceptually why a switch behind a bridge shouldn't work. I mean, isn't the switch's only purpose to play traffic cop for ethernet devices that want access to bandwidth. What difference does it make to the switch whether it's connected to a bridge or a router or an access point?

Thanks for all your insights so far, ashu.


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## ashu

Use infrastructure.

The setting (client vs bridge vs repeater etc) should be under a different sub-menu. I can hunt dow nt e pdf manual later and figure it out, but you should find it under 'Advanced' or some other tab. There are multiple tabs on the web-interface (don't use the D-Link software - its weak). Tabs are laid out horizontally near the top of the page, and subsection are listed as vertical tabs in the left 'frame' of the page. Go through them all until you find it


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## tivoboyjr

> _Originally posted by ashutoshsm _
> *(Ignore my note 2 - only of issue if you have 3 or more 7230-4 or 7231-4)
> 
> tivoboyjr ... hmm, I can't imagine why the 7231's won't work. Maybe one is faulty? I have 7230-4's (2 2004 variants, and one 2003 variant) and they all play toegterh real nice despite slightly different (up-to-date) firmware versions.
> 
> Maybe the 7231 is different? Have you studied the addendum (PDF) document about bridging (I attached it - its off the 7230 page on Belkin's website).
> 
> Are you uing the same subnet? Both routers (first one in router/bridge mode, second one in bridge/ap mode) MUST be on the same subnet
> Try 192.168.0.10, 192.168.0.11 respectively!
> 
> Try this ...
> 
> - Keep the 2 routers in one place, by your main PC and cable modem (or DSL or whatever)
> - PC ethernet - static IP 192.168.0.100, DNS 192.168.0.10 (the IP of main router/AP/bridge), Gateway (same: .10)
> - set one 7231-4 up as the router/bridge, and ensure that the pc that is hardwired to it can connect to the internet
> - then connect the PC to one of the LAN ports on the second router, and access that 2nd routers config page (at http://192.168.0.11) ensuring its Access Point Mode is enabled and its bridging is enabled with the WLAN MAC id of the other router permitted (NOT the LAN or WAN MAC!)
> - the PC SHOULD be able to access the internet via the wireless link
> 
> Replicate on the TiVo. Of course, DHCP would work too - since only the main router (.10) will be a DHCP server in this scenario.
> 
> To set up wireles networking, if you're having issues - always go the simplest route to eliminate potential failure points - no WEP/WPA, no B mode (54G-only), turn off the 'Turbo or Frameburst' modes etc etc. Then build them in after you get it working with the basics.
> 
> <edit> attachemtn's too big - its available online (Wireless bridge.pdf on their site) *


I just cannot get this to work. It seems like I'm doing everything correctly, but it just isn't working. I hooked my Linksys B router back up with the Netgear game adapter, and it works like a charm. I guess I will give up on G for now and just be glad I have something that works. Thanks much for your help!


----------



## ashu

Ugh, that sucks. Try the Belkin router (7230-4) Buy 2 on two receipts from CompUSA (silly one rebate per household rule), or get one at Circuit Ciyt (pricematch?). For $40 you can hook up 4 deices at each end.

Or buy the 'turbo' version (7231-4, I think?) which also (I believe) supportss this bridged AP mode.


----------



## yakima2k

Okay - update.

D-Link guy was full of it. DSS 5+ switch works just fine. And I discovered that it works just fine behind my gaming adapter, too. No need for the extra bridge. I put the switch behind the adapter and connected my PS2 and Tivo to the switch - the PS2 had no problem connecting to the network again.

My problem now is the Tivo. I can't seem to get the settings configured correctly. It tries to negotiate with the router and then tells me "the gateway could not be located".

I've got a DSL connection using PPPoE. ipcofig says my gateway address is 192.168.0.1. my router (DI-624) says that's my LAN ip addy but my WAN ip is different. But I've tried both in the TIVO and none of them will find the gateway. Suggestions?

UPDATE - D-link Gaming Adapter does not work with Tivo! - You can put multiple consoles behind a DSS-5+ switch but you WILL need a proper bridge to use Tivo behind the switch.


----------



## yakima2k

Once I got a proper bridge setup the Tivo was able to get past the switch, bridge and connect with my router and obtain an auto-IP address.

So, to conclude, my setup is this - Toshiba RS-TX20, Belkin F5D5050v USB/Ethernet adapter, D-link DSS5+ switch (with PS2 and Tivo connected), D-link G810 bridge, D-link DI-624 router.

Thanks a lot for all your help, especially Ashu. Once I get TTG and Home Media setup I'll post some transfer rates.


----------



## ejclaw

I have read entire thread, but I am very confused about the setup. I have three Tivo's that I want to use MRV with. I also have one wrt54gs that I am using as my gateway router, and three wrt54g. However, I am new to computers and do not understand how to configure the wrt54g so that they communicate with each other. I have tried to follow the instructions as posted, but am not able to get the system to work. Does anybody have any suggestions, or is there any place that anyone is aware of that can take me through it step by step.

Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Ed.


----------



## Jetholes1

Does it matter if you use D-Link or Linksys products? The D-Link G Router is much cheaper.

Thanks.


----------



## ashu

I don't see why it should matter. As long as the device/s you buy are capable of working together (bridging or client mode, as needed) - buy whichever works.

It just so happens that families of devices from one manufacturer (same revision, chipsets etc) happent o work better with each other.


----------



## ejclaw

I have finally setup my tivo network with the game adapter as specified in this thread. I previously tried with the wireless router (wrt54g) but was unable to create a network. The increase in speed is quite noticeable. I am presently using the DHCP with my Linksys router and having the linksys game adapter get the IP address automatically. My question is, how do you measure the signal strength of the game adapter if the IP address is gotten automatically. One post stated that you needed to go into the configuration setting, but I have not been able to log into the site.

The purpose of finding out my signal strength is to see if I am running at optimal speed. If I am not, I may need a signal booster. But for now I am running in the dark. Any suggestions will be appreciated.


----------



## ashu

As of now, I'm sure your TiVo/s certanly aren't maxing out your Wirelss G connection - at least based on most people's observations.

At best, you would see faster transfer rates between PCs (one n either side - behind game adapter, and behnind router). If that is critical to you, or you have money to burn - sure - buy a signal booster  Otherwise (for TiVos or PS2/XBOXes) *I* wouldn't bother.


----------



## anazoal

> _Originally posted by ejclaw _
> *I have read entire thread, but I am very confused about the setup. I have three Tivo's that I want to use MRV with. I also have one wrt54gs that I am using as my gateway router, and three wrt54g. However, I am new to computers and do not understand how to configure the wrt54g so that they communicate with each other. I have tried to follow the instructions as posted, but am not able to get the system to work. Does anybody have any suggestions, or is there any place that anyone is aware of that can take me through it step by step.
> 
> Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Ed. *


I'm not sure that the WRT54G can act as a client using the default Linksys firmware*. Either way, I'd suggest going to Linksysinfo.org and searching the help forum.

*I know you can load Sveasoft Satori 4 firmware on the WRT54G's and then set them to "client" mode. You can also set up the routers using WDS. Answers and help are available at linksysinfo.org


----------



## ajlee7

Hi, I have two TiVo S2s. I have one of my TiVo hardwired connected via an ethernet USB200M adapter. If I connect the other TiVo via a USB200M and a WGA54G AP, should I be able to expereince a performance transfer increase to perhaps in real time speeds? I currently have the second TiVo connected to my wireless routner WRT54G via USB11 Linksys and the transfer speed is quite slow.


----------



## ashu

Yes, no reason why you shouldn't (provided your network is well-configured, has good signal strength and low interference from neighbors' networks and your phones/microwave oven etc).

Of course, ideally, your TiVo should be idle, or not actively recording a show (buffering seems less intensive) at the time, but still - Best quality realtime over G-based network - definitely achievable!


----------



## tivoboyjr

I wanted to thank ashu and eibgrad for their earlier advice and report back that I did get my wireless G network set up and working well with my Tivos. The only thing I wasn't successful at was doing it dirt cheap like eibgrad did. As I mentioned earlier, I had a lot of problems with the D-Link and Belkin equipment.

When I returned the Belkin equipment, I got a Linksys WRT54GS router to replace my Linksys B router. I'm using it with two Netgear WGE111 wireless G game adpaters and two Netgear FA120 USB ethernet adapters. For some reason, the Linksys routers work great for me and it's pretty dicey with the other brands.

Just for kicks, I decided to hook up my Linksys WSB24 wireless B signal booster to my Linksys G router, and it seems to work, even though it is only supposed to work with the B router. My signal strength went up from the mid 80's to being at 100% most of the time, so I'm leaving it connected. My neighbors can probably sponge off of my internet connection if they want to.

So I've got a pretty good system. It does, however, take a long time to transfer a show from one Tivo to another. It can take a few hours before I can even start watching the show being transferred, which is disappointing. I don't know if anyone has any suggestions for what I can do about that. Aside from that, it works great for sharing music and photos. After the problems I had, it is nice just to have HMO up and running, and I'd recommend this to anyone who's had problems using the Tivo-recommend wireless adapters. We just had twins, and suddenly being able to see those pictures on our TVs is very important!


----------



## ashu

Quick points ...

- Congrats on the twins 
- Turn on WEP (or WPA - preferred!) - its technically *illegal* to run an unencrypted Wireless network. Not to mention your ISP will ding you for any napster/bittorrent or other 'unacceptable' activities etc!
- HOURS OF WAIT TIME before you can start watching the show? I think your B signal enhancer/repeater may be messing things up, or your system/network is otherwise badly setup or facing interference issues (microwaves, 2.4G corldless phones) My setup transfers all but Best Quality FASTER than real time. Medium Q shows transfer about as fast as 1X FastForward! Your network performance is definitely lacking. Also - try changing channels!


----------



## tivoboyjr

I changed the channel, then tried the "WPA Pre-Shared key" setting and couldn't get a connection on my notebook. I then changed to WEP and got a connection on my notebook, but can't get a connection on the Tivos now. Is there a secret to making this work? I had read that it was difficult to connect the Tivos using WEP or any type of security, so I didn't try it - given the luck I've had with everything else network-related. I appreciate the advice, though, as I would feel more secure if I could get this to work - and I didn't know I was doing anything illegal!

After I get connected again, I'll try to transfer a show, and will disconnect the booster if I'm still having delays.


----------



## eibgrad

> _Originally posted by tivoboyjr _
> *I changed the channel, then tried the "WPA Pre-Shared key" setting and couldn't get a connection on my notebook. I then changed to WEP and got a connection on my notebook, but can't get a connection on the Tivos now. Is there a secret to making this work? I had read that it was difficult to connect the Tivos using WEP or any type of security, so I didn't try it - given the luck I've had with everything else network-related. I appreciate the advice, though, as I would feel more secure if I could get this to work - and I didn't know I was doing anything illegal!
> 
> After I get connected again, I'll try to transfer a show, and will disconnect the booster if I'm still having delays. *


I can't get WPA to work w/ bridging enabled either, had to resort to WEP. I then did a little research on WDS (Wireless Distribution System), which is the underlying technology that makes bridging possible. Seems WPA is NOT supported by WDS! The problem is that WPA uses dynamically generated and rotating keys, which is incompatible w/ the technology. Only static keys, such as that used by WEP, will work.

If you want to read more about it, suggest the following:

http://www.orinocowireless.com/support/techbulletins/TB-046.pdf

Specifically, see page 6, "Drawbacks (current and/or temporarily)"

eibgrad


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## Stormspace

I haven't read the entire thread and apologize, but was wondering...is everyone in this thread using the USB port to connect wirelessly? If so, it is possible to get better speeds wirelessly by using an wireless ethernet bridge/game adapter that plugs directly into the RJ45 jack on the TiVo, thus bypassing the USB port entirely.


----------



## ashu

The RJ45 jack is a phone modem, and not CAT5/ethernet compatible.


----------



## rog

> _Originally posted by ashutoshsm _
> *Turn on WEP (or WPA - preferred!) - its technically *illegal* to run an unencrypted Wireless network.*


hi ashutoshsm,

i wondering what information you are basing this statement on. i have never heard of any laws that ban unencrypted wireless networks. in fact, here in portland we have a very wide network of open wireless access points, which we call personal telco. personal telco is in fact a registered 501c3 non-profit. it's not against the law here, and in fact, the city participates to some degree:

http://www.personaltelco.net/static/index.html

not that it isn't illegal elsewhere, but this would be the first i've heard about it. please share any details you might have, i find the concept interesting (in a scary sort of way).

thanks!


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## shaft711

> _Originally posted by ashutoshsm _
> *The RJ45 jack is a phone modem, and not CAT5/ethernet compatible. *


Actually, RJ-45 is the correct connector for CAT5/ethernet. Phone lines use RJ-11 adapters, and that is the connection on TiVO units. =)


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## Stormspace

My Series 2 has both RJ45 and RJ11 jacks on it.


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## ashu

OK - I may have been wrong on the legality aspect of open WEPs, but the 'provider' of the free-to-use WEP would bear responsibility to downloads and online activities (spam, credit card or other online fraud, **AA objectionable downloads etc)

Also - yeah, RJ11 and RJ45 - oops. And what TiVo's have RJ45? I thought we only had J11 (the phone type)


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## Stormspace

I'm an idiot. I looked online and unless my TiVo is extra special, I don't have a RJ45 jack on mine. I'll check my box when I get home.

edit: 
Just in case anyone was wondering, allow me to confirm that yes indeed, I am an idiot. I neglected to examine the rear of my TiVo box to see if an RJ45 jack existed. I made an assumption based on my son's XBox. I guess in my deluded mind somewhere the black cases merged and confused me into thinking that the RJ45 jack was on my TiVo as well.

At any rate, the wireless "G" game adapter I was mentioning earlier in this thread will work, but only with a USB-->ethernet adapter. The only real benefits to using a "G" game adapter with the USB ethernet adapter is that a)Once USB 2 drivers become available throughput will automatically increase to USB 2 standards, and b) Wireless network speeds will not degrade because a "B" client is on the network.

I apologize for any confusion brought about by this, I am indeed an idiot. <arrghh!>


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## eibgrad

FYI

For those using the Belkin F5D7230-4 for bridging, I've noticed there a bug in the firmware that can drive ya nuts when trying to configure for wireless bridging.

I've been trying to configure the router for the best security, which I believe is:

Wireless Mode: 54G-Only
Broadcast SSID: disabled
Protected Mode: OFF

54G-Only prevents 802.11b clients. Disabling the SSID should be obvious, harder to connect to what you can see, and protected mode makes mixed mode connections (802.11g and 802.11b clients) even more difficult.

I've also configured the wireless bridges to limit access by specific APs based on MAC address. But there seems to be a bug in the firmware that does NOT save these MAC addresses on the Wireless->Wireless bridge page! Every time I tried to reconfigure security, like disabling the SSID, turn OFF protected mode, etc., the router would UNDO all the wireless bridging configuration changes! When this happened, the bridging, of course, stopped working. At first I thought that WDS was the problem, perhaps it didn't support disabling the SSID, or having protected mode OFF. But through much trial and error, I discovered that this isn't the case. The problem is the firmware is NOT saving the wireless bridging details on the Wireless->Wireless bridge page when certain changes are made on other configuration pages. Whether it's ALL or only some changes, I didn't fully test. But changes on the security page DEFINITELY caused this problem. Btw, I'm using the 4.03.03 firmware.

So just beware. To get around this problem, I had to make sure that the wireless bridging configuration page was updated LAST! This is quite an annoying bug since if you fail to confgure the wireless bridging page last, and update say, security last, you can lose access to the bridge, and then you'll have to do a hard reset and start over. Took me quite a while before I discovered this bug and why I was having such a hard time configuring the wireless bridge for best security.

HTH

eibgrad


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## ashu

Heck yeah - and that's hardly the ONLY way to 'lose' all bridging MAC address lists in the settings! And with my setup - two 7230's on the 3rd floor in rooms at opposite ends, and the 'serving' 7230 downstairs by my D-Link 802.11B router - its a pain to move stuff back and forth and carry your notes along. So I get incredibly pi$$ed off when this happens!

I shoulda mentioned this bug when I came across it! Oh - and using Protected Mode slows down transfers SUBSTANTIALLY, so the benefit of blocking out 802.11B traffic is lost! I just experimented with different channels until I found one that provided good performance. And THIS also took forever. Must have lost 5 lbs running up and down to manually update settings locally on each router!

I *did* already mention that if you have 3 of these babies, only ONE should list the MAC's of the other 2, and the other 2 should list the MACs of the first ONLY (not each other) in the bridging config. Having 2 sets (the 'other' 2) of MACs listed in the settings for each leads to 3 second and higher ping times. Apparently the two upstairs routers bounce data back and forth before connecting to Mr. Downstairs! I wish there were a way to specify connection emtrics or 'preffered' bridged MAC.


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## hkancyr

Well after spending $275 down at the CompUSA , I got my G wireless network running all G all the time. Realtime HMO viewing and faster transfers to the PC for T2G and I gotta say it was worth it. 

Thanks vlxjim and the TiVo community. 

Anyone want a couple of Linksys USB B adapters cheap?


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## ashu

Congrats 

And no - I have no use for B hardware either


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## tivoboyjr

An update to my update from a few posts back: I've spent even more money, but everything works the way it's supposed to now. I ordered some Linksys G game adapters to replace the Netgear game adapters, which I'm returning. So now I have an all-Linksys wireless G network and it works so much better. I also got rid of my 2.4Ghz phones and replaced them with 5.8Ghz (even more $$).

Now I am able to use WEP with no problems and besides HMO, I get that "faster than real time" transfer of shows between Tivos that Ashu mentioned. It is really nice and a big improvement from where I was before.

My problem now is that I just got my first HDTV (and first big-screen TV), but the picture from Tivo is terrible. Something else to work on!

Edited to add: Oh, and Ashu, btw, I did end up disconnecting the Linksys wireless-B signal booster. I still get a good signal, and I emailed Linksys about it and they said not to use it - but they also want me to buy the new G booster. Guess I'll sell it on ebay. It doesn't seem like I need a booster anyway.


----------



## ashu

Good for ya!

Of course, now you can't be happy about your setup for even a day ... start craving the CableCard HD TiVo! Its not easy wanting to be at the crest of the technology curve! :lol:


----------



## rog

How difficult is it to change back and forth between two USB network adapaters? Does it require a restart every time? 

I'm considering getting a wired network adapter for use during long TiVoToGo transfers. I'd like to keep using the current USB 802.11b wireless adapter for normal use, i.e., daily guide updates. 

I don't mind the 50' cable running across the floor to speed up transfers of multiple shows -- but I'd like to avoid it when possible. Will trying to swap them out often cause more trouble than it's worth?


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## vlxjim

Wow I have not been around for a long time. And I come back to see whats up here and find that this post is still active and helping. I can't believe that TiVo has not got up to speed on the wireless 'G'. I can report that my network is still going strong. I did add a high gain antenna and this did help out, much more solid. 

Good to see this is still helping out


----------



## ashu

rog said:


> How difficult is it to change back and forth between two USB network adapaters? Does it require a restart every time?


Try it  And let US know! I know I've switched (without needing to reboot) between my Linksys USB200M and Belkin F5D5050 (USB1.1) jut for kicks. Never the DWL122 (802.11B wireless)


----------



## ashu

vlxjim said:


> Wow I have not been around for a long time. And I come back to see whats up here and find that this post is still active and helping. I can't believe that TiVo has not got up to speed on the wireless 'G'. I can report that my network is still going strong. I did add a high gain antenna and this did help out, much more solid.
> 
> Good to see this is still helping out


I asume you're the OP, then?  Thanks for starting a good thing!

Although some G adapters ARE now supported, it appears TiVo is still tweaking speeds and other issues. It should only be a matter of time, though. But still - the bridged G network idea works out cheaper if you have multiple devices at each bridge!


----------



## Pool Shark

Hi all, just installed my first Tivo over the weekend and am eager to get it set up on wireless! I have been reading through this thread for awhile and am a little unsure on how to set up what i want and just want to verify here first. And yes, I did try to find what I needed throughout the whole thread first, but I couldn't find any concise information on how to set this up AND it seemed like most were using the Belkin router. 

I went out and bought two Linksys WRT54GS routers, one to use as main and the second to set up as a bridge for the Tivo, and a Linksys USB200M Ethernet USB Adapter. Can anyone give me some step-by-step instructions for getting these two talking so I can have a networked Tivo? I am technically inclined, but completely new to wireless setups. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Irishman

The "stock" Linksys firmware does not allow for bridging (WDS). However, out of the box it will support "clien mode". Client mode will allow for only wired clients to be connected to the second wrt. Instead of writing a user manual, I would first update the stock firmware from linksys' website and then follow the user manual for setting up in "client mode". 
The tivo is the easy part. After you get the routers set up, plug in the 200m. You then have the choice of using a static ip or using the wrt as a dhcp server. 
I will not write a book but would be willing to help you out with specific questions with the linksys wrt's. I use 3 of them.

John


----------



## mjcollart

I am not certain that the Linksys adapter you have will work. When I set up my system the recommended adapter was a Linksys b adapter. I went ahead and tried to configure the system with a g adapter and was unsuccessful. (I wanted to have the latest toy... so I had to drive 10 miles back to return the g adapter and get the b one instead). I believe this may be due to the Tivo software recognizing only the Linksys b version but not the g version yet. Assuming you have the proper adapter to work with Tivo's wireless software, the key step I needed to take was to get Tivo to program my account (enable it) so I could download the Tivo's wireless software version to my home. I did this by sending a request to Tivo through their website. (You can check on the version needed versus the version installed on your system via your setup menu.) Once you've got the wireless system software installed you're almost done. You just plug the UBS adapter into the back of the Tivo box and Tivo will recognize it then. Next, you'll need to check your Tivo software on your computer (assuming you've downloaded it) and get the address of the adapter/server to add via the Tivo setup menu. The Tivo computer software will give you a set of numbers like: 168.1.1.100 (address) which you will need to code into the Tivo wireless setup menu. (if you are using an encrypted key with your wireless router, you'll be asked for that when setting up your system using the Tivo box's setup menu, too.) It is very easy to do when you had the right b adapter (not a g one), had Tivo enable you to download the proper wireless software version and had the proper router address for the adapter and the WEP key. ps. To get the software, you can instruct your Tivo to go online and get an immediate update. This has to be made available to your system however by Tivo Central and took about 2 days. I have the Media feature, too. If you have digital pictures on your computer, by using the Tivo software on your computer you can identify folders with jpg pictures in them, move them to a viewing section with the software and the start your software (see menu) to transmit to the Tivo adapter. Now you can view your digital pictures on your TV....  I just added the TivoToGo software, too, this weekend. The key to that was to locate and download the needed codec (driver) file onto your computer to allow your computer to run the transferred videos. This, like most things, was a pain but there are driver download urls posted on this website that will take you to the right place to get the software. (I am using Windows 2000 Pro and Microsoft's Media Player Version 9, if you have XP, I do not think you need anything else.) I am mad I only have a 40 GB harddrive  since the Tivo video files are quite large and take a long time to download. Good luck.


----------



## ashu

Irishman said:


> I will not write a book but would be willing to help you out with specific questions with the linksys wrt's. I use 3 of them.
> 
> John


Thanks for jumping in there, John!

Pool Shark, use the search feature in this thread (near top right) and find all references to linksys. I believe the process has been detailed well earlier.


----------



## ashu

mjcollart said:


> I am not certain that the Linksys adapter you have will work.


mjcollart - you're refering to USB wireless adapters. this thread is all about using USB wired ethernet adapters connected to Wireless G bridges (or routers functioning int ahat mode). The TiVo assumes it has an ethernte connection - no wireless settings are done on the TiVo. The bridges act, as the name implies, as bridges replacing a long ethernet cable between the 'main' router and the bridge. Speeds are in the range of regular 802.11G (TiVo USB port shortcomings notwithstanding).


----------



## Irishman

Ashu (new abreviation) is correct. The wrt's are not adaptors. The tivo believes it is "wired" into the network.

As I said earlier, I have 3 wrt's. They are used with 2 tivo's throughout the house. There is no problem using this setup. Actually there is a benifit. If you have any other devices ie... PS2 or Xbox, you can wire them into the wrt.

I will swear by them.


----------



## shadowforce

I have a couple of quick questions. Just purchased the WGA54G.

When configuring it, do I configure for Head-To-Head gaming or online gaming?

Also, when configuring the Tivo using this config, do I set it up for wireless or wired?

Thanks for your help!


----------



## ashu

TiVo's would think they're wired. That's the point, They don't support ALL G wireless adapters yet, adn apparently the current support is still being tweaked and speeds are low!

As for mode, I don't know! Check the manual and see which of those modes has the word Bridge in it somewhere  Someone who knows more about that device will prolly answer your question!


----------



## rog

I'm looking for a wireless g router that supports both: 

1) bridging (between 2 of the same models) 

- and - 

2) an external antenna. 

I would prefer that the router only have one attached antenna that can be removed, and then a new antenna attached. I'll be attaching a high gain dish-style antenna to shoot a signal a fairly good distance outdoors (to a second building). 

Any thoughts?


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## ashu

The Linksys Super G version is prolly your best bet. Not sure that they can handle dish-style antennae, but I would assume so, especially considering they're the only manuf. who sells an upgrade antenna package! It has 2 antennaes, though -= not sure which would need changing. Your question may be better answered on forums discussing purely these devices/applications and the special SveaSoft firmware you would likely need.

My Belkins definitely only have attached antennae


----------



## rog

Cool, thanks ashu. I have a (non-Super G) WRT54G with two antenna, but I can't figure out how to get the antenna off! I assumed they were non-removable, but your post makes me think otherwise. How do you get those things off? Just pull, or unscrew, or... 

Seems like such a silly question.


----------



## ashu

Never owned a Linksys. D-Links just have a screw-off base on the antenna.

Here ...
http://www.microcenter.com/search_r...ropdown_keyword=antenna&submit.x=0&submit.y=0

and particularly

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0184852
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0184845


----------



## JohnMAD

Im starting a wireless network for my tivo and I was wondering how this setup would work and what else I might need with it

Linksys 802.11G wireless router (WRT54G)

Linksys 2.4 wireless G access point (WAP54G)

Linksys 10/100 USB 2.0 network adapter (USB200M)


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## ashu

Disclaimer - i'm not VERY familiar with linksys devices.

But - from what little I have gleaned, I'd just buy two WRT54G (or the better but pricier WRT54GS), put the upgraded firmware on both (free or $20?) and WDS/Bridge them up. This way, future networked devices (extra TiVos, PS2 etc) at the same location won't require a switch behing the WAP54G as 4 ports are already available on that second WRT.

Bear in mind that you're only eligible for 1 rebate per household, usually - if you plan to buy a rebate-based one! Consider buying from two places (including online).

<edit> The Linksys USB200M is excellent- can't go wrong with it. If you're close to a store that carries it, consider the (physically stronger, otherwise no better) Netgear FA120 and the D-Link DUB-E100 as well. As I understand it - identical performance. The Linksys just looks a bit flimsy (not that any of my 3 has broken yet  )


----------



## mark4621

Why did you buy the 200M rather than the 100M usb adapter? The linksys site is vague on the comparative performance. Your configuration looks like a good fit for me. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## ashu

mark4621 said:


> Why did you buy the 200M rather than the 100M usb adapter? The linksys site is vague on the comparative performance. Your configuration looks like a good fit for me. Thanks for posting it.


Me?

USB 20M is USB 2.0, the 100 is USB 1.1. Simple choice, now that TiVos support USB 2.0 and ca take advantage of it (very noticeable speedups).


----------



## spelldog

Will the Belkin Wireless-G Router with 4-Port Switch Model: F5D7230-4 work in in bridge mode, and if so, how difficult are they to configure? I am running a DLink B network now, with the dwl usb adapter. The G bridge will serve dual purpose, b/c I hope to be able to run cat5 to my laptop in the TV room (company machine, no wireless card) to connect to the internet. Will this work? The Belkins are $9.99 after rebate at BB.


----------



## ashu

Yeah on all counts. Go for it. If your router box doesn't have teh WDS (Wireless Distrib. Syst - basically bridging) addendum in the manual, or as an add-on piece of paper, you can also find it online. My 3 routers - one had it incorp. into the manual, one had 3-4 loose sheets of paper, and one made no mention of it! Inconsistent packaging!

<edit> Consider buying your second one from elsewhere, or have someone else buy it as a gift for you - the rebate is only valid one-per-household. Or use a different address/name etc. If that sounds unethical, consider this - rebates are unethical, and disallowing a 'good customer' who buys multiple items from claiming more than one rebate is MORE evil


----------



## jitster

Hey there,

I have a very similar setup to the topic heading:
I currently have a Linksys setup
Wireless Router  WRT 54GS
Wireless Gaming Adaptor: WGA54AG
Compact USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapter USB200M

Due to the fact that I that Network Adapter, Tivo Cust. Service will not support it as they claim its a 'hack' - all I'm doing is changing the Ethernet to USB so that it can work... Upset about it being called a hack, but that's another issue.. They did suggest I come to this forum for help....

I cant connect my Tivo to the internet. It used to work, then Tivo ver 7 software came along. Now its sporadic. 

I can connect a laptop computer to the gaming adapter, and can connect to the router. It is set up using Wep encryption and all that, and it works fine. When I attach the Tivo to the Adapter, I've not been successful. I'm getting "Warning, No DHCP Server found", and "Can't Reach Gateway". It worked momentarily yest, but then is again offline today...

I've tried the following setup steps:
1) Test Connection
2) Connect to Tivo service Now
3) Edit Phone - Network Settings:


----------



## jitster

I set up the following:
Obtain IP Address automatically
No DHCP client as required 

On checking Network Conn - I get 'Warning NO DHCP Server found".
MY router IS set up as a DHCP Server, and my desktop connects to it dynamically.

I tried the static setting of the IP - fixed IP, Gateway, etc, and get the mesg: "Could Not connect to Gateway"...

GRRR... 

Any suggestions would be useful...


----------



## ashu

Your setup SHOULD work. Test the same USB200M adapter with the same game adapter with your PC. Check tos ee whether DHCP (or static) work there.

Remmeber that the router will see both MAC IDs (the game adapter's and the USB200M's) and assign TWO DHCP IPs. You COULD try setting your game adapter to static (configure it when connected via ethernet to your PC's ethernet card), and then set the TiVo to use your router's IP as the DNS server and set the game adapter's IP as the Gateway. Or some permutation thereof. One of those worked for me when I used a similar (D-Link 802.11B) device.


----------



## gentlecall

I dont have ver 7 yet since I have a Humax. I do have your wireless setup though. It works great for me. I leave my computer on 24/7 and once in a while TiVo says it cant find my server. I just restart my computer and it seems to connect again. OR sometimes I just click on TiVo "music and photos" link and then back-out and then click back to go in. (does that make sense?) I do that a couple of times and TiVo seems to find the server.


----------



## Stormspace

ashu said:


> Remmeber that the router will see both MAC IDs (the game adapter's and the USB200M's) and assign TWO DHCP IPs. You COULD try setting your game adapter to static (configure it when connected via ethernet to your PC's ethernet card), and then set the TiVo to use your router's IP as the DNS server and set the game adapter's IP as the Gateway. Or some permutation thereof. One of those worked for me when I used a similar (D-Link 802.11B) device.


Ashu. My son is using a game adapter with his playstation console and when reading over the directions for the linksys game adapter it said that the mac address of the connected device would pass through the adapter, thus the adapter has no MAC of it's own. Don't know how they do it, but when I checked on the router it was true, only one MAC and IP for that device.


----------



## jitster

Ashu, Thanks for your insight... I tried several things - basically, I keep getting intermittent connectivity (like 1x every 3 weeks)... I am going to use the WGA54AG for my Xbox now (been paying for LIVE service but havent used it yet!), and I went to Tivo's Adapter link and bought a Netgear WG111 - its on sale this week @ STaples for $30; and it worked flawlessly...

GentleCall- I know **exactly** what you mean - I do the same thing w/ the music and photos bit (going in/backing out)!


----------



## ashu

Good to know that some adapters do that, Stormspace! Different implementations, I guess - I'm more familiar with my D-Link equipment.

Too bad you gave up, jitster ... but the work-around is good too! Albeit at the cost of speed (G adapters aren't (yet) as fast as an ethernet-wireless bridge)


----------



## peitsche

I read most of this thread and a few others but I will ask these basic questions anyway...  

1) does this ultimate wireless network work with the series 2 DirecTiVos?

2) is it possible to transfer shows to a TiVo that is not hookep up to the dish (i.e., a DirecTiVo with a bad tuner?)


again, I'm sorry if this has been answered before...


----------



## peitsche

peitsche said:


> I read most of this thread and a few others but I will ask these basic questions anyway...
> 
> 1) does this ultimate wireless network work with the series 2 DirecTiVos?
> 
> 2) is it possible to transfer shows to a TiVo that is not hookep up to the dish (i.e., a DirecTiVo with a bad tuner?)
> 
> again, I'm sorry if this has been answered before...


oops, I just realized this is in the HMO and TiVoToGo forum, so please feel free to ignore my first question (and call me a moron)...


----------



## ashu

This network lets devices be shielded from the wireless aspects. Anything that works with hardwired ethernet works with this. In response to your questions, a suitably modified (can't talk about it here) DirecTiVo COULD also benefit from this, if you make it capable of handling wired connections!

In that case, part 2 also becomes moot - as long as your (Direc)TiVo is subvscribed, irrespective of a bad tuner, you should be able to do with it whetever you could before (which may NOT include transferring shows from DirecTiVos to StandAlone TiVos - but what do I know, I don't own any DTiVos)


----------



## yakima2k

So I set up my Tivo and PS2 behind a D-link switch that's connected to a D-link wireless bridge for connection to my wireless router.

The Tivo works perfectly with this setup. The problem I'm having behind the bridge is with the PS2. I don't understand it - it connects just fine through the bridge, but then after about 5 minutes of connection time I invariably lose my connection to whatever online server I'm connected to. BUT, if I connect the PS2 directly to the bridge, and bypass the switch, it works with no problems.

Any networking gurus have any ideas on this? The only thing I can think is that with both the PS2 and the Tivo actively connected to the switch that the swtich somehow isn't directing the packets properly and that's why I'm losing the connection. Any ideas how to solve this so I can use both devices without having to constantly move wires around?


----------



## ashu

Never used a game console, but I used to have a TiVo and 2 PCs behind a switch behind a bridge before - no problms. Ever. Not that that helps, just FYI ...

Would it be a terrible thing to run a continuous ping (ping -t) to your PS2's IP address, just to keep-it-alive? Would that help, I wonder?

Download some kind of application that monitors connectivity/loss via pings, and run it, while forcing TiVo connections simultaneously, as an experiemnt.

Good luck!


----------



## Stormspace

yakima2k said:


> Any networking gurus have any ideas on this? The only thing I can think is that with both the PS2 and the Tivo actively connected to the switch that the swtich somehow isn't directing the packets properly and that's why I'm losing the connection. Any ideas how to solve this so I can use both devices without having to constantly move wires around?


Yakima2k. Based on the literature I'm seeing the bridges are designed to work with only one device at a time. see http://www.dlink.com/images/products/DWL-G810/DWL-G810_diagram.jpg

You might want to consider a Linksys wireless AP. These can be configured as a bridge like you are trying to do. I paid 69.00 ea. at PCMall for a "G" model.


----------



## jitster

Ashu- how much of a speed loss is there between G adapters and an ethernet-wireless bridge? My Xbox is working flawlessly w/ the WGA54AG; but unplugging from the XBox to the Tivo, and can't seem to get the connection again from the Tivo. My WG111 has been 100% uptime w/ my Tivo over the past week, but BOY is it slow - took over 1.5 hrs to transfer a 1.7 gig movie (thank god I saved it at basic quality) from my Tivo to my Computer...


----------



## ashu

Stormspace said:


> Yakima2k. Based on the literature I'm seeing the bridges are designed to work with only one device at a time. see http://www.dlink.com/images/products/DWL-G810/DWL-G810_diagram.jpg
> 
> You might want to consider a Linksys wireless AP. These can be configured as a bridge like you are trying to do. I paid 69.00 ea. at PCMall for a "G" model.


They want you to believe that. I have owned the DWL-820+ and the DWL-900AP+ (both 802.11B, and capable of bridging). Used them in CLIENT mode (hope you're doing that Yakima) and let them both get DHCP IPs, as well as all PCs/devices behind them. Worked great. Dirt-cheap (free after rebate) 8-port 10/100 noname switch too!

Of course, tehy may have enforced the one-device thing, but I seriously doubt it


----------



## ashu

jitster said:


> Ashu- how much of a speed loss is there between G adapters and an ethernet-wireless bridge? My Xbox is working flawlessly w/ the WGA54AG; but unplugging from the XBox to the Tivo, and can't seem to get the connection again from the Tivo. My WG111 has been 100% uptime w/ my Tivo over the past week, but BOY is it slow - took over 1.5 hrs to transfer a 1.7 gig movie (thank god I saved it at basic quality) from my Tivo to my Computer...


A G adapter won't run too fast on a TiVo because they admit they abrely support them 9drivers only, no optimization YET). If you have a working setup, wait for now, unless its EASY to put a switch behind that bridge. Cheap (even free) 4 port switches exist. You'll also need to buy a wired US 2.0 adapter (anotehr 20-30)

Using a bridge maximizes speeds (to the point where it then splits to the PS2, TiVo etc, if they're both network hungry simultaneously). Until G adapters are improved, their performance won't compare.

Not to mention a G adapter (to TiVo) and a G bridge (to PS2) automatically hits your bandwidth hard, because home routers suck at serving multiple wireless devices


----------



## yakima2k

jitster said:


> Ashu- how much of a speed loss is there between G adapters and an ethernet-wireless bridge? My Xbox is working flawlessly w/ the WGA54AG; but unplugging from the XBox to the Tivo, and can't seem to get the connection again from the Tivo. My WG111 has been 100% uptime w/ my Tivo over the past week, but BOY is it slow - took over 1.5 hrs to transfer a 1.7 gig movie (thank god I saved it at basic quality) from my Tivo to my Computer...


I don't know if this is relevant, but I started off trying to use a gaming adapter instead of a true bridge and it wouldn't accept data from my wired USB adapter. It was only when I switched out the gaming adapter for the bridge that I was able to get the Tivo to connect.


----------



## ashu

FYI, for all the rebate-haters everywhere, buy.com has the Belkin F5D7230-4 for 24.99, no rebates, free shipping.

Of course, buy.com's seller ratings HAVE nosedived lately, and I'm sure others will follow suit (can't you mention a lower online price to amazon and hope for the best?)

I believe the replacement 7231-4 does the funky Turbo (108MBPs - yeah right) mode AND bridging. Costs as much as the Linksys, though - so at that price point, I'd buy the L and throw the SveaSoft firmware on it!


----------



## eibgrad

Thanx Ashu, speaking of the F5D7231-4 (since you brought it up ), the *ONLY* difference between the F5D7231-4 and F5D7230-4 is that the former has the 125mbps HSM mode, other than that, they are IDENTICAL. Same interface, same features, same pluses/minuses, maybe even the same bugs! I know because I've owned both. And the 125mbps HMS mode is virtually worthless, all it takes is the *slightest* 2.4GHz interference (other wireless networks, portable phones, etc.), and it's back to 54g. Perhaps only practical to those in rural areas, but otherwise very unreliable. Plus, if you're using these Belkin models in bridging mode (WDS), a common topic in these forums, you can't run 125mbps HSM mode anyway, Belkin requires downgrading back to 54g. So all in all, there's no real good reason to waste your money on the F5D7231-4 unless you happen to find it similarly priced to the F5D7230-4. Oh, yeah, one small difference, the F5D7231-4 is smaller, but doesn't have a stand, while the F5D7230-4 is larger, but does have a stand (personally I like the stand and wish they hadn't eliminated it from the F5D7231-4, despite it's more compact dimensions).

eibgrad


----------



## ashu

A new one (I mentioned it earlier, but its lost in this massive thread) - the 7230-4 also comes in the small form factor. My Circuit City one is large and has a stand, and came in the red box. The small form factor 7230-4 has version 2004 (or something akin to that) under the UPS and is in a white box. CompUSA stocks these.

FWIW - my CompUSA ones were bought a week after the Circuit City one - rebatestatus shows approved rebates. The Circui City one (I returned the second) - rebate received, being processed. Even though I mailed it first!


----------



## eibgrad

ashu said:


> FYI, for all the rebate-haters everywhere, buy.com has the Belkin F5D7230-4 for 24.99, no rebates, free shipping.
> 
> Of course, buy.com's seller ratings HAVE nosedived lately, and I'm sure others will follow suit (can't you mention a lower online price to amazon and hope for the best?)
> 
> I believe the replacement 7231-4 does the funky Turbo (108MBPs - yeah right) mode AND bridging. Costs as much as the Linksys, though - so at that price point, I'd buy the L and throw the SveaSoft firmware on it!


Here's a deal for ya, forget about buying from Buy.com, instead, print out the Buy.com webpage and visit your nearby Home Depot. They carry a bunch of networking products from Belkin, including this router, PLUS, they have a $40 mail-in rebate. $25 - 40 MIR = MAKE $15!

Just completed this transaction TODAY, sweet. And yes, Home Depot pricematches online internet sites, see for yourself:

Home Depot Price Matching Policy

Nothing sweeter than being PAID to take it off their hands  Even better, this is the small form factor v2 model.

Enjoy...

eibgrad


----------



## ashu

Home Frikkin Depot? Wow! I have a 10% off somewhere, ever since I moved. If it hasn't expired, this will be even sweeter 

BTW - rebate companies are getting smart about price-matched items - Circuit City rebates explicitly say they will send a proportional rebate check (if they deign to approve it in the first place ) in case of a price match.

<edit> Different item/model at homedepot.com th 7230-v4-xxxx (something)
Usual trick to avoid price matches - per-store item number/ID

I'll stop by the store anyway ...


----------



## truqui

I just purchased one of these last night at a local Brandsmart USA for $38.88
Does Belkin have a rebate going?

Question which wirless adapter would you guys recommend for this router?

TIA


----------



## eibgrad

truqui said:


> I just purchased one of these last night at a local Brandsmart USA for $38.88
> Does Belkin have a rebate going?
> 
> Question which wirless adapter would you guys recommend for this router?
> 
> TIA


Then you grossly overpaid, heck, Buy.com sells it w/ FREE SHIPPING and no taxes for most states, $25 straight up. CC (Circuit City) has it for $10 (after rebate, 2 x $30), and last time I checked, so did BB (Best Buy). PCConnection (online) also has had it for $10 after rebate not too long ago. This router is sold over and over and over again for <$20. There's just no good reason to be paying $38.88 for this product, too many other options. Even if you didn't send in the Belkin rebate from Home Depot, you'd do better w/ at least the pricematch. Unfortunately most of the Belkin rebates are tied to specific retailers, including the one from Home Depot.

eibgrad


----------



## truqui

I guess I did...I can always take it back, it's still in the unopened box...
Geez, the Belkin website sells it for $80+ I thought I got a good deal.

What about the adapter recommendation? Anyone care to recommend which would work best with this router?


----------



## ashu

Another identical router makes the best (and one of the cheapest) adapters 

You need ethernet on the device, though - so for TiVos you'd also need, say, a Linksys USB200M


----------



## truqui

ashu said:


> Another identical router makes the best (and one of the cheapest) adapters
> 
> You need ethernet on the device, though - so for TiVos you'd also need, say, a Linksys USB200M


Sorry ashu...I'm really more than a newb at networking!
What do you mean?
Why would I need a wired router as well?


----------



## ashu

truqui said:


> Sorry ashu...I'm really more than a newb at networking!
> What do you mean?
> Why would I need a wired router as well?


This thread is all about leveraging some of these routers' ability to bridge networks. So two routers would form a nice bridge, with the bonus of having a free 4-port hub/switch at each end. So 4 devices would be supported.

At 25-ish for a USB 2.0 ethernet adapter for your TiVo, plus 10 or less after rebate for a wireless router, in addition to the first router you bought already - you'd have a 4-port wireless extension where the second router sits. (and a third and fourth, optionally! Each of which could connect to a hub/switch for a total max of almost 256 devices!)


----------



## jedware

Has anyone used Windows XP built-in bridge functionality successfully?

I ask this question because I have three tivos together in my basement next to a old computer that is connected wirelessly and would like to bridge my wireless network to my three tivos that are connected to a switch.


----------



## ChofuHS

Really nice! I had wireless for a year with Comcast Cable. Nothing but problems. After multiple service calls, I ripped out all the hardware, switched to Liknkys and now, all is well! Now, I would like to get the printers hooked up to the same. Thanks for the info.


----------



## eibgrad

jedware said:


> Has anyone used Windows XP built-in bridge functionality successfully?
> 
> I ask this question because I have three tivos together in my basement next to a old computer that is connected wirelessly and would like to bridge my wireless network to my three tivos that are connected to a switch.


Is your PC also connected to that same switch via a wired adapter?! If so, then I understand your need for a "software" bridge, iow, bridge the wireless and wired adapters on that PC. This would allow the Tivo's to communicate over the wireless network, using your PC as a conduit, and presumably, access the Internet (I'm assuming your PC over wireless is connected to a wireless router connected to the Internet, while the wired Tivo's are not, if I'm wrong, you need to be more specific in describing your config).

I see no reason it wouldn't work, the bridge will allow TCP/IP packets to be transferred between the two physical networks. Of course, a wireless access point would achieve the same thing without involving a PC.

Is there a specific problem you're having?

eibgrad


----------



## hoopsnut

has anyone done this yet? Just moved and at my old place I had a wired connection to my TiVo with USB200 as well as a wrt54g wireless router for my laptop access.

Now that we've moved, i want to "un-wire" my tivo and am wondering if i should buy a linksys gaming adapter or another wrt54g router (already have the USB adapter from before). 
I actually have a PS2 i'd love to hook up as well and that makes me lean toward the router, but I haven't seen anyone who has done it yet. Connectivity for my PS2 would not be a requirement but a nice option.

I am also not clear on how I would switch the remote (2nd) router to become a bridge/receiver nor if I would be able to hook up both PS2 and Tivo to the back of said remote router successfully.

As a relative newbie, I'm hoping I am describing my scenario sufficiently.

BTW, I'd like to say how impressed I am with the knowlegde and helpfulness (is that a word?) of this board and this thread in particular.


----------



## ashu

hoopsnut (Hope you weren't rooting for the Illinii!) - search this thread for "Sveasoft"

As far as I can tell, you need that (Sveasoft) firmware (instead of the stock Linksys firmware) on your router/s for bridging to function. And your scenarios should work well (those posts that detail the procedure are quite detailed!)

These messages here seems promising ... http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2284049&&#post2284049
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2291902&&#post2291902

Good luck.


----------



## hoopsnut

Thanks for your response and suggestions. one of the things I noticed was that the only mention of connecting 2 routers involved alternate firmware etc (and, of course, some addtl money)

as a relative idiot, I'm not too jazzed to have to screw with firmware and scripting. Is it much simpler to just buy the gaming adapter and live without the chances for 3 other devices


----------



## hoopsnut

...might be to see if people have had any good experiences connecting easily 'bridge'-moded routers of other brands to a linksys wrt54g?


----------



## ashu

Belkin F5D7230-4. Thats what eibgrad and I have. Cheap WDS-capable routers. I have 3.

Always 10-20 after rebate (rarely, but non-zero-times, even less!) And if you hate rebates, buy.com (link late last week ...) has 'em for 25 each, free shipping.


----------



## hoopsnut

and any known probs communicating with linksys routers?


----------



## ashu

hoopsnut said:


> and any known probs communicating with linksys routers?


WDS (bridging) is not a standard yet. While some people report routers/bridges from diff. manufacturers working with each other occasionally due to identical chipsets and OEMs, the Belkin in qeustion will ONLY bridge with another identical Belkin (or a 7231-4 - worthless extra expense).

Buy two Belkins, and use one in WDS-only, the other in router/WDS mode. Or use both in WDS mode, with the superior (user interface/features/security config) Linksys doing routing/switching.

buy.com has it for 24.99, and coupons for 5/25 and 10/75 (buy 3 routers for 65!) are available! (google)


----------



## jedware

eibgrad said:


> Is your PC also connected to that same switch via a wired adapter?! If so, then I understand your need for a "software" bridge, iow, bridge the wireless and wired adapters on that PC. This would allow the Tivo's to communicate over the wireless network, using your PC as a conduit, and presumably, access the Internet (I'm assuming your PC over wireless is connected to a wireless router connected to the Internet, while the wired Tivo's are not, if I'm wrong, you need to be more specific in describing your config).
> 
> I see no reason it wouldn't work, the bridge will allow TCP/IP packets to be transferred between the two physical networks. Of course, a wireless access point would achieve the same thing without involving a PC.
> 
> Is there a specific problem you're having?
> 
> eibgrad


Here is my setup:

Upstairs: ActionTec 1524 DSL Modem with Wireless 
Two Computer connected via CAT5 cable

Downstairs: Computer connected with USB wireless Antenna to DSL Modem
3 Tivos connected with USB200M and CAT5 to Switch/Hub

I am trying to get all my tivos on my network and internet. I tried several different configs on the downstairs computer but could not get it to work. If you could tell me what I am doing wrong that would be great. Otherwise what wireless bridge would work with my existing hardware?


----------



## wombat2010

I have read this (long, very informative) thread, but I am still hitting a snag hooking up my TiVo to a switch behind my wireless gaming adapter (D-Link G820). The TiVo can connect to my network (and get updates, music, TiVo to Go) if connected directly to the G820, but when connected to the switch (which is to allow me to connect my XBox to the same G820), it can only get updates and music, but not TiVo to Go.

At first, I realized the TiVo was getting an IP address in the 192.168.1.x range, and the rest of my network is in the 192.168.0.x range. My theory was that the switch (Linksys BEFSR41) was giving it its IP address, because Linksys is in the 192.168.1.x range by default. I changed the switch's IP address to the 192.168.0.x range, but then the TiVo started having trouble obtaining an IP address. I began getting DHCP error messages, and the TiVo said it was getting an IP address "from the server." These IP addressses were always in the 169.x.x.x range, making me think it was getting an IP address from my ISP (Comcast). Such IP addresses, of course, do not work on my home network.

I have toggled DHCP on and off on the switch, and made sure the wireless router (D-Link DI-624) is set to DHCP (I even set a static-DHCP address for the TiVo using its MAC address), but the TiVo keeps getting 169.x.x.x IP addresses. Is there a setting on the wireless router, the switch, or the G820 wireless gaming adapter that needs to be changed? I'm thinking it has something to do with the latter (the G820), because the TiVo can get an IP address from the wireless router w/o a problem if connected directly to the G820, but not when connected to it behind the switch. But I really do not know at this point.

Any suggestions/help would be much appreciated. My wife is going to have me committed if I do not stop obsessing over this soon.


----------



## CrispyCritter

wombat2010 said:


> At first, I realized the TiVo was getting an IP address in the 192.168.1.x range, and the rest of my network is in the 192.168.0.x range. My theory was that the switch (Linksys BEFSR41) was giving it its IP address, because Linksys is in the 192.168.1.x range by default. I changed the switch's IP address to the 192.168.0.x range, but then the TiVo started having trouble obtaining an IP address. I began getting DHCP error messages, and the TiVo said it was getting an IP address "from the server." These IP addressses were always in the 169.x.x.x range, making me think it was getting an IP address from my ISP (Comcast). Such IP addresses, of course, do not work on my home network.


I don't know your hardware, so can't give you a solution, but here's a couple of things to advance you:

1. The 169.254.x.x address is the default address when the adapter can't find any DHCP server on its local subnet. The adapter doesn't search any further than its local subnet.

2. Routers are designed to communicate between two different subnets, but they don't join the subnets. Part (perhaps most) of your problem is the Linksys is functioning as a router and not a switch (a switch would join the connected parts into one subnet.) The Linksys thinks there are two different subnets on either side of it. Thus, for example, DHCP requests from yout TiVo adapter are not reaching the other side of the Linksys. You'll have to check the documentation to see if your Linksys can even be set to be just a switch (I don't know).


----------



## wombat2010

That makes sense! Thank you for explaining that to me, CrispyCritter. I was wondering if I was using too much equipment, so to speak, by using a router instead of a plain old switch. (The router can only be set to Router or Gateway mode, neither of which seemed to work.)

I did not know that 169.x.x.x was a TiVo default. Here I was thinking it was somehow bypassing my wireless router and going and getting an IP address from Comcast--I mean, why would I think of a simple explanation when I can come up with a complicated, outlandish one?

So I think I will try to pick up a simple (and probably very cheap) switch and see if that does the trick. I find networking stuff somewhat interesting, but very confusing. I have real respect for those who actually understand it.

Thanks again.


----------



## ashu

It SHOULD function as just a switch - use only the 4 downlink ports! Don't connect your WG810/820 (or whatever bridge you have) to the Uplink/WAN port!


----------



## wombat2010

Connect the G820 to one of the four downlink ports? Okay . . . trying to understand (with my feeble understanding of networking) how and why that works. If the wireless bridge (G820) is connected to a downlink port of the wired router, how does the TiVo (through a wired router) 1) connect to my wireless network or even 2) connect to the internet at all? I guess I thought the downlink ports on a router were OUT only and that the WAN port was IN (kind of like video in and video out on a television or a TiVo), and that the only way for the wireless bridge to pass around the connection from the wireless router was to be connected to the wired router's WAN port.

If you can explain how/why this works, I would be interested. But if you cannot or don't have time to try to dumb it down so that I can understand, I will be quite happy with it simply working, even though I don't understand it! Thank you, Ashu! I'll give it a shot tonight and post whether that solves it.


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## ashu

(Network tech terms may be seriously butchered here, folks so help clean it up; here's my understanding...) A router (consumer grade) is a 4 (or more) port switch With Features (like a WAN port and internal local network management, NATing, routing etc). Since you don't want to use any of those (in fact, they'd be detrimental!) - you have to use only the 4 'switch' ports (Downlink is the layman's or simplistic term to explain that 'devices' connect there, and your cable/DSL modem connects to the 'uplink'.

Some people have multiple routers on a network (heck, the internet had gazillions of routers, separate subnets, and NAT-capable (Network Address Translation) devices making it work. But in your case, without other kluges (tunneling etc), you can't keep your PCs connected to the 'main' router and devices connected to the 'secondary' router on the same subnet, and comfortably seeing each other the way TiVo's and TiVo apps desire.

If you wanted to separate, say, your kids' PCs and set up separate firewall and web blocking features on their subnet, then a 2nd router would be useful 

<edit> Some topics here should help ...
http://www.homenethelp.com/web/explain/index.asp
Read the hubs/switches, s well as the NAT Basics and Broadband Routers topics.

And simplistically put ...
http://www.netbook.cs.purdue.edu/othrpags/qanda249.htm


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## Stormspace

ashu said:


> (Network tech terms may be seriously butchered here, folks so help clean it up; here's my understanding...) A router (consumer grade) is a 4 (or more) port switch With Features (like a WAN port and internal local network management, NATing, routing etc). Since you don't want to use any of those (in fact, they'd be detrimental!) - you have to use only the 4 'switch' ports (Downlink is the layman's or simplistic term to explain that 'devices' connect there, and your cable/DSL modem connects to the 'uplink'.
> 
> Some people have multiple routers on a network (heck, the internet had gazillions of routers, separate subnets, and NAT-capable (Network Address Translation) devices making it work. But in your case, without other kluges (tunneling etc), you can't keep your PCs connected to the 'main' router and devices connected to the 'secondary' router on the same subnet, and comfortably seeing each other the way TiVo's and TiVo apps desire.
> 
> If you wanted to separate, say, your kids' PCs and set up separate firewall and web blocking features on their subnet, then a 2nd router would be useful
> 
> <edit> Some topics here should help ...
> http://www.homenethelp.com/web/explain/index.asp
> Read the hubs/switches, s well as the NAT Basics and Broadband Routers topics.
> 
> And simplistically put ...
> http://www.netbook.cs.purdue.edu/othrpags/qanda249.htm


One other thing to note is that it's generally not good to operate more than one DHCP server on a LAN. So if you do use more than 1 router, disabling DHCP on the internal router(The one NOT connected directly the internet) is advised.


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## wombat2010

Thank you, both. I am slowly starting to get straightened out, and as I said, I will give things a try tonight. I hope others will benefit from seeing how my situation is resolved (though maybe others knew to plug the bridge into a switch port, not a WAN port).

Also, Stormpace, thanks for the comment about DHCP. I had been thinking that myself, wondering if conflicting IP addresses could end up being given out (how would the routers know what the other was doing?). My only workaround (besides the correct answer, which is to disable DHCP on the router not connected to my cable modem) was to specify IP addresses by MAC address (while leaving DHCP on, which you can do on my wireless router) on the router connected to the modem, and then restrict the range of IP addresses that could be assigned on the other--in other words, set addresses by MAC from 100-109, and tell the other only to hand out addresses beginning at 110 and above. Not a very good solution, and obviously not necessary if I simply disable DHCP on that router.


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## rog

Stick to only one DHCP server per network, and you'll save yourself a lot of trouble.

I manage a 150 node, 3 building network at work. Last week, people started calling the help desk, wondering why they couldn't access email, the Internet, mapped network drives, etc. As we started looking at the PC's, we realized they had incorrect IP addresses.

Long story short: someone had installed a wireless access point/router in one of the remote buildings. They weren't authorized to do so, and hadn't spoken with anyone in IT. They had no idea what they were doing, and left the router with the factory default settings, which meant the DHCP server was on.

PC's requesting an IP address were getting alternating responses from the real DHCP server and the rogue DHCP server. So some clients would get a correct IP, while others would get an IP for a different (incorrect) subnet.

It took some sleuthing to track down the router!


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## wombat2010

Well, I plugged the G820 (wireless bridge/game adapter) into one of the downlink ports of the switch (wired router, acting as a switch now), and turned off DHCP on that router, being sure DHCP was turned on on the wireless router (DI-624), which is connected to my cable modem.

It seems to have worked, in part. The TiVo succesfully obtained an IP address, and is now able to get network updates, share music, and send recordings to my desktop via Tivo to Go ("TTG"). Recall that earlier the first two things worked, but not TTG.

However, I am now unable to go online with my XBox, which is also connected to one of the switch ports. It says it is unable to connect to a DHCP server to get an IP address. I have also tried connecting my laptop to the switch via ethernet, and it, too, is unable to get an IP address (it eventually defaults to a 169.x.x.x address and tells me it has limited/no connectivity).

I cannot figure out what could be wrong that would allow the TiVo to connect in all ways, but not my XBox or laptop. Any ideas? I can provide further details on hardware or configuration if necessary.

Thank you for guiding this ignorant home network administrator.


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## CrispyCritter

I'm not nearly as confident as others that your Linksys hardware supports what you want to do here (which is have it act as a switch but still connect to a larger network.) Switches in general require extra optional hardware on each port that can serve as an "uplink" port; one that connects to another switch or router. I have both switches and routers that only work with one designated uplink port. Unless your linksys documentation says that it can auto-detect uplinks on all ports, I would not assume it can. (The issue is the connection between the linksys and your wireless router.)


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## wombat2010

CrispyCritter said:


> I'm not nearly as confident as others that your Linksys hardware supports what you want to do here (which is have it act as a switch but still connect to a larger network.) Switches in general require extra optional hardware on each port that can serve as an "uplink" port; one that connects to another switch or router. I have both switches and routers that only work with one designated uplink port. Unless your linksys documentation says that it can auto-detect uplinks on all ports, I would not assume it can. (The issue is the connection between the linksys and your wireless router.)


Okay, I think I follow. There is a port on my Linksys router labeled "Uplink" in addition to the four numbered ports and the WAN port (so, six ports total). Should I try plugging the wireless bridge/game adapter (G820) into THAT port? If not, or if that doesn't work, can you recommend a switch that has the capability you're talking about? I mean, sure, I wish what I currently had could do the job, but if not, I'm more than willing to spend a little money on a switch to get things working properly. That is, as long as such switches aren't so exotic that they cost as much as a dual processor Xeon server or something. 

Thanks.


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## ashu

Umm, sure - try that.

But I can vouch for the fact that my Belkin and my D-Link routers work great as switches with the 4 'ports' being the only ones in use. They only have one other port - curiously enough, labelled WAN on one and Uplink on the other!

Welcome to the world of non-standard implementations and nomenclature 

Oh, and maybe your XBOX issues stem from the fact that the XBOX sucks and you need a PS2 

Try connecting the XBOX first - maybe your G820 can only handle passing on DHCP and then handling traffic for at most ONE device (and the TiVo occupies that slot by virtue of being the first on connected)?


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## ashu

Oh - I got my 8-port GigaFast Ethernet (10/100) Switch, for FREE after rebates. You can frequently find sub-10 deals on 4-port switches at CompUSSR, Worst Buy and Crappy City.


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## wombat2010

ashu said:


> Try connecting the XBOX first - maybe your G820 can only handle passing on DHCP and then handling traffic for at most ONE device (and the TiVo occupies that slot by virtue of being the first on connected)?


I've done some testing and it seems you are right. Whichever device (TiVo or XBox) I tell to connect to the network first (following a power cycling of the G820) gets an IP address and connection no problem. Whichever I tell to connect second gets an error (no gateway found, etc.). It does not matter whether the bridge (G820) is plugged into one of the four numbered switch ports or the uplink port, nor does it matter whether either device is connected in a lower or higher numbered switch port (seemed dumb that it would, but I've seen dumber things work). I also played with which numbered switch port the G820 was plugged into.

So from your quote above, it sounds like you think it is a limitation of the G820, not the router/switch?  That is dismaying, because as you pointed out, I can get a switch for next to nothing, but I paid $75 for that wireless bridge, and I don't even know that a different bridge would work any better. Any chance it's the switch? I guess it won't cost me much to try it and find out (well, except for the cost of time, but sheesh, I've gone well past the point of no return now, anyway--this is becoming more about the journey than the destination).

Thanks again.


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## Stormspace

wombat2010 said:


> I've done some testing and it seems you are right. Whichever device (TiVo or XBox) I tell to connect to the network first (following a power cycling of the G820) gets an IP address and connection no problem. Whichever I tell to connect second gets an error (no gateway found, etc.). It does not matter whether the bridge (G820) is plugged into one of the four numbered switch ports or the uplink port, nor does it matter whether either device is connected in a lower or higher numbered switch port (seemed dumb that it would, but I've seen dumber things work). I also played with which numbered switch port the G820 was plugged into.
> 
> So from your quote above, it sounds like you think it is a limitation of the G820, not the router/switch?  That is dismaying, because as you pointed out, I can get a switch for next to nothing, but I paid $75 for that wireless bridge, and I don't even know that a different bridge would work any better. Any chance it's the switch? I guess it won't cost me much to try it and find out (well, except for the cost of time, but sheesh, I've gone well past the point of no return now, anyway--this is becoming more about the journey than the destination).
> 
> Thanks again.


I'm not 100% sure about your situation, but bridges in some configurations require a bridge at both ends.


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## ashu

Wombat - glancing at the G820 manual ...
1. try turning off Super G mode in all forms (Advanced Tab, Performance menu) - my Belkins work better when all fancy-schamncy hi-speed and turbo modes are OFF.
2. This device needs the Gateway and DNS to be your router's IP (set these on the TiVo and the XBOX)
3. If possible, try to connect TWO devices via the bridge, with your Linksys used as a switch in VERY close proximity to the main router (your PC and XBOX should be easy to manage). Both wired. This will ensure interference at the distance/range you're using it at normally, isn't the culprit.

Finally, not what you want to hear - this is a "Gaming adapter". Fancy packging and more limited firmware. IMHO you would have been better with the (less intentionally crippled, as I've discovered gaming adapters to be!) G810 instead. Can you exchange this at the point of purchase?


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## wombat2010

Ashu,

1. I have disabled Super-G on all devices (which for all I have read seems like little more than marketing hooey and a cause of more headaches than solutions).

2. I will try inputting those settings. I didn't realize the DNS could be the router's IP address--thought it was something that had to be obtained from one's ISP, and I frankly ignored it b/c I didn't understand it. Query, though, whether the XBox or TiVo would be able to connect when plugged in alone, but not when plugged in with the other, based on this information not being entered? Nevertheless worth trying.

3. I will try that, too, although getting them any closer will be difficult with my desktop upstairs from the other components. Maybe I'll scrounge around for some long CAT5.

As far as the distinction between the gaming adapter (G820) and wireless bridge (G810), I did not realize that manufacturers supply crippleware with the former. I actually settled on the G820 after some debate, largely because comments I read in different places seemed to suggest the G810 had buggy firmware. Of course, the reality is probably that more people had had more time to complain about the G810 because it has been out longer. Very annoying that the gaming adapters are artificially limited in their firmware. Don't think I can return it, though--Newegg is good with returns, but I've had it for months. ;-)

We'll see what happens tonight. What do you think about the possibility, as raised by CrispyCritter, that the problem really is with my router? Perhaps a switch that can auto-detect uplinks an all ports (rather than just on one, designated port, as is the case with my Linksys) would solve my problems. Danke once again.


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## rog

ashu said:


> 2. This device needs the Gateway and DNS to be your router's IP (set these on the TiVo and the XBOX).


  The gateway should be the router's IP, correct. But the DNS? That doesn't make any sense.



wombat2010 said:


> 2. I will try inputting those settings. I didn't realize the DNS could be the router's IP address--thought it was something that had to be obtained from one's ISP, and I frankly ignored it b/c I didn't understand it.


wombat, you are correct. DNS servers reside at the ISP, and you'll always need to use the ISP's DNS servers on all your devices.

I think ashu must have made a typo, or just meant something else. Your router will NOT act as a DNS server.


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## Stormspace

If you use DHCP you shouldn't have to do anything to the TiVo but set it to obtain an IP automatically.


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## wombat2010

I am beginning to think my problem is due to a hardware limitation, possibly with my Linksys router (acting as switch) not having auto-detecting uplink capabilities on all ports. To attempt to rule out the wireless gaming adapter (G820) as the culprit, I will configure and hook up a Linksys wireless bridge I have (WET11--it's 802.11b and works fine with my wireless-g router) and see if I have the same problems.

I'll also try entering gateways and such, but since the TiVo OR the XBox OR my laptop can connect fine when connected alone, I don't think it's a problem with something like that. It seems like DHCP should work or not, regardless of whether other devices are connected to the switch (unless the switch is limiting things, which is why I will try getting a new switch).

Any recommended switches that anyone here has used successfully? Based on reading switch descriptions, it is difficult to tell whether a switch has auto-detecting uplink capabilities.


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## ashu

rog said:


> The gateway should be the router's IP, correct. But the DNS? That doesn't make any sense.
> 
> wombat, you are correct. DNS servers reside at the ISP, and you'll always need to use the ISP's DNS servers on all your devices.
> 
> I think ashu must have made a typo, or just meant something else. Your router will NOT act as a DNS server.


Routers will forward DNS. When set to DHCP, (I'm quite sure) my devices pick up the router's IP as their DHCP server, Gateway AND DNS! Or am I missing something?

Of course, in a more managed network, where the router is aLinux box with two interfaces and running IPChains firewalls, NAT in software etc - setting its IP as DNS would be silly *unless* you also ran a DNS service on it


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## rog

ashu said:


> Routers will forward DNS.


So, you are basically saying the (consumer grade) "router" is acting as a DNS proxy of sorts? This is the scenario I think you are describing: Clients set their DNS server equal to the IP of the router. When they make a DNS query to that router, the router in turn passes (or proxies) that request onto the real DNS server at the ISP, then hands the DNS response back to the client.

Well, I suppose it's theoretically possible. But...

1) Why would that ever be necessary? The router is just using the ISP's DNS servers anyway.

2) With DHCP being the usual configuration scenario, and thus, the DHCP server able to tell the clients what the ISP's DNS servers are, why bother with a DNS proxy?

3) I've never seen it. My Linksys router certainly does NOT do this. I use static IP's normally, but when I do turn DHCP on, it always hands the client devices the real IP's of the DNS servers at the ISP, and it never would tell the client to use the IP of the router for DNS.

4) Adding a DNS proxy to a consumer-level device would add cost that would be passed on to the consumer. Might I add, a completely needless cost.

Anyway, I digress and we're getting off topic. But I see no reason to not go with the standard tried-and-true method of using your ISP's DNS servers on every device.


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## ashu

Mere pass-through can be implemented as a rule in firmware ... not much cost there.

The tried and true setting involves (the user or network configure-er) remembering the DNS, or a router that specifies it when a device requests a DHCP IP.

Setting the DNS IP to be the router's IP is superior because it simplifies the steps/effort required to enable static IP!


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## rog

Although it's not quite as simple as a "mere pass through" (keep in mind, the router would effectively be doing network address translation to make a DNS proxy work), you are probably right in that it would be a software solution, and thus, it probably wouldn't add much cost to the router.

I will admit I'm used to thinking in terms of business/enterprise networks.

However, I still maintain my position that setting each client device to use the IP addresses of the ISP's DNS servers is the proper way.

Or, just use DHCP on the clients and don't worry about DNS.

After all, not all routers can/will pass DNS queries in the manner you describe. It's not a RFC standard, AFAIK.

----

Moving along, I second your comments about game adapters. I think they are marketing-heavy and feature-thin. Not to mention needlessly overpriced!


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## wombat2010

rog said:


> However, I still maintain my position that setting each client device to use the IP addresses of the ISP's DNS servers is the proper way.
> 
> Or, just use DHCP on the clients and don't worry about DNS.
> 
> After all, not all routers can/will pass DNS queries in the manner you describe. It's not a RFC standard, AFAIK.


Point well taken, and that's what I'll do, but in the event I do try entering the ISP's DNS server, is that information typically available through the ISP's web site?



rog said:


> Moving along, I second your comments about game adapters. I think they are marketing-heavy and feature-thin. Not to mention needlessly overpriced!


Yeah, total rip, and total marketing hooey for a crippleware product. I would have paid just as much for a plain vanilla wireless bridge, though it might have worked better.

By the way, any recommended switches for auto-detecting uplinks that you mentioned earlier? I think that is what I'm going to try this weekend.


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## pcar1947

I have been following these post with interest. I am one of the early adapters of the VIXJIM setup. I have been experiencing real-time transfers since feb 04. Of course I have experienced the pain of setting up the game adapters and the Dropping of transfers in mid stream . For the most part it's ok. However it seems you guys have come up with a new and improved wireless g transfer. Does anyone have a diagram of the improved setup? Are routers (WRT54G) replacing the Game Adapter? What does SVEASOFT do for me? 

I know these questions have been asked before but this thread has been going since 12-19-03 and I am confused.


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## ashu

Routers that implement bridging (WDS) behave like a 'game adapter' or 'bridge' connected to a 4-port switch. They're more common, so they're often cheaper (Belkins for 5-15 after rebates, 45 for ALL 3 of my routers!)


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## eibgrad

pcar1947 said:


> I have been following these post with interest. I am one of the early adapters of the VIXJIM setup. I have been experiencing real-time transfers since feb 04. Of course I have experienced the pain of setting up the game adapters and the Dropping of transfers in mid stream . For the most part it's ok. However it seems you guys have come up with a new and improved wireless g transfer. Does anyone have a diagram of the improved setup? Are routers (WRT54G) replacing the Game Adapter? What does SVEASOFT do for me?
> 
> I know these questions have been asked before but this thread has been going since 12-19-03 and I am confused.


I started the ball rolling on the use of Belkin routers some months ago. I noticed at the time that the Belkin F5D7230-4 and F5F7231-4 routers support WDS (Wireless Distribution System), *PLUS*, they could be had cheap, often $10-20 AR (after rebate), or even FAR (free after rebate). Even picked up a router from Home Depot recently for $25 (price matched to Buy.com), w/ $40 rebate, so I made $15!

The reason this situation is so compelling for use w/ Tivo is a) the routers support WDS, so they can be bridged, b) they're dirt cheap (compared to a dedicated wireless bridge or game adapter, easily $80 or more), and c), support for "G" protocol.

So the basis of discussion in this forum has been to aquire these Belkin routers, configure them as APs (Access Point), and enable bridging. Thus, each Tivo can have its own dedicated AP. All it takes is adding a USB 2.0 ethernet adapter (e.g., D-Link DUB-E100), then patching it to the AP. Because all the wireless configuration lies outside the Tivo, it removes any limitations or restrictions on wireless imposed by Tivo (e.g., "b" only). You just want to make sure you use USB 2.0 ethernet adapters (as opposed to USB 1.1) to get the most bandwidth of the "G" protocol as possible.

There are several configurations possible. Some people use one of the Belkin routers *as* a router, the other routers are reconfigured as AP w/ bridging enabled on all devices. The WDS support makes this possible, something not typically found on competitive brands at this same price level.

In my case, I find the Belkin router, as a router, to be quite limited, doesn't provide all the features I'm come to expect w/ an advanced router, such as that found on my D-Link DI-624. Therefore, I've kept my DI-624 but disabled the wireless, then patched one of the Belkin routers in AP mode (and of course, bridging enabled) to the DI-624 w/ a simple ethernet patch cable. All other Belkin routers are also configured as APs w/ bridging enabled, but all these are patched to my Tivos. Of course, you can do the same thing w/ other network devices, like the family room PC, mom's laptop, whatever you like. IOW, I maintain the advantages of my DI-624 router (which doesn't support WDS, so it's not bridgeable), while gaining the advantages of the Belkin router's wireless WDS.

However you configure it, the "big deal" in this forum regarding the Belkin routers is that they support WDS, can therefore be bridged w/ other Belkin "G" routers (and of course, dedicated Belkin APs), and for a fraction of the cost of buying dedicated APs, game adapters, etc. We're not doing anything here in this forum wrt these Belkin routers that you couldn't accomplish w/ other brand routers, BUT, you would be forced to buy expense, dedicated APs/bridges for this purpose.

In my case, I've managed to aquire four (4) Belkin F5D7230-4 routers for a maybe $20 or so (after all rebates). No way, no how, can you build an equivalent distributed wireless system w/ the "G" protocol this cheaply EXCEPT w/ the Belkin line. As far as the SVEASOFT, some people are using this primarily to make the mediocre Belkin router, a better router. Since WDS is already supported, it doesn't have much more relevance to this discussion. In the case of Linksys, I believe SVEASOFT has *added* WDS support (don't hold me to that, I don't follow SVEASOFT advancements all that closely). In that case, it would obviously benefit the Linksys crowd, it would make Linksys capable of achieving the same thing, although you still can't beat the Belkin on pricing. Just beware that WDS, even when supported, is typically NOT interoperable across brands.

I hope that clears up a few things, it's not really as complex once you see it in action, it's a lot harder to explain than actually execute. It's just that not everyone is aware of the WDS/bridging capability built into the Belkin routers, so people usually don't recognize how easy and cheaply they can dramatically improve their wireless network, and in this case, Tivo specifically.

HTH

eibgrad


----------



## ashu

eibgrad said:


> I started the ball rolling on the use of Belkin routers some months ago.
> 
> *it's not really as complex once you see it in action, it's a lot harder to explain than actually execute. It's just that not everyone is aware of the WDS/bridging capability built into the Belkin routers, so people usually don't recognize how easy and cheaply they can dramatically improve their wireless network, and in this case, Tivo specifically.*


Thanks, great post. And thanks for mentioning the Belkins here ... I've lost count of how many friends have gone the 'Belkin Way' thanks to my preaching, over the last few months.

And I've emphasised a part of your message, just to re-iterate it. Once I had channels and MAC's ironed out, the configuration on a per-edvice (TiVo, PCs, Networked Printer/Scanner etc.) is almost NIL!

Ohh, and I also retained my D-Link 614+ as the 'main' router, and it also handles 802.11B duties, on a separate channel. The Belkins (all 3 of which cost less than the D-Link, combined!) operate in G-only mode.


----------



## rog

eibgrad said:


> I hope that clears up a few things, it's not really as complex once you see it in action, it's a lot harder to explain than actually execute.
> 
> ...
> 
> HTH
> 
> eibgrad


Great post man! You explained it very well. You nearly summed up the whole thread. This one deserves sticky status. :up:



ashu said:


> I also retained my D-Link 614+ as the 'main' router, and it also handles 802.11B duties, on a separate channel.


You mean your DLink router can host 11b on one channel and 11g on another? That's quite a router! I've never really tried any of the Belkin products (the fact that Linksys is made by Cisco has always been a big deciding factor for me), but I think I'll pick one of these up next time I see a good deal.


----------



## eibgrad

rog said:


> You mean your DLink router can host 11b on one channel and 11g on another? That's quite a router! I've never really tried any of the Belkin products (the fact that Linksys is made by Cisco has always been a big deciding factor for me), but I think I'll pick one of these up next time I see a good deal.


Not quite.

Remember, the DI-614+ is a b only router, whereas my DI-624 is a b/g router. What ashu has done is a slight twist on my configuration. If you recall, I disabled the wireless completely on my DI-624, thus all wireless clients, b and g, are supported over the Belkin router/AP, which is patched w/ ethernet cable to my DI-624. IOW, I maintain only ONE wireless network, supported completely by the Belkins.

In ashus case, hes decided to leave the DI-614+ wireless ENABLED, while also patching the Belkin router/AP to the DI-614+. In effect, ashu is maintaining TWO wireless networks. Although ashu hasnt detailed why he did this, I can venture an educated guess.

Using ashus configuration, he can maintain a separate b wireless network, perhaps for existing b clients, esp. if they employ D-Link client adapters. Meanwhile, he can keep all g traffic, perhaps all of it strictly Tivo, on a different wireless network. Its NOT that the DI-614+ supports b clients on one channel and g clients on another channel, as you inferred from our earlier comments, rather, its that the DI-614+ supports b clients on one channel, and the ***Belkin router/AP*** supports g clients on another channel. Ultimately, all clients, be they wired, b, or g, end up on the DI-614+ for network services (DHCP, firewall, etc.).

To complete the thought, ashu could go so far as to actively *exclude* 802.11b clients from using the Belkin wireless network by configuring the Belkin router/APs in 54-G Only mode.

Why all this fuss by ashu? Should be obvious, it increases the available bandwidth for all b and g clients, and thus potentially increasing throughput. Only thing he has to be careful about is avoiding/minimizing interference by using sufficient channel separation (both "b" and "g" use the same 2.4GHz band).

eibgrad


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## rog

got it, thanks for splainin'.

don't forget, ashu just likes playing with these things.  sounds like you and i have a similar infliction. it's best not to over-analyze it.


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## ashu

Ahhh. eibgrad should be in Network Psychology Forensics ... if therre is such a thing!

I have one TiVo with a wireless B adapter (D-Link DWL-122) and that is my soon-to-be-sold unit (junk shows, Season Passes etc, rarely any transfers -- MRV nor TTG). The 614+ serves that unit alone.

On my G bridged network served by the 3 Belkins (set to exclusive-G mode, no clients permitted - Bridging only) I have my PCs, TiVos, Vonage device and Network Printer/Scanner/Fax/Copier.

When I finally find a roommate for the spare room, I'll provide the (now-redundant) D-Link 900AP+ Bridge device (802.11B) with a switch (if needed) and have it NOT affect my G network - because it'll be supported by the D-Link 802.11B device. Unless I decide to just pick up a 4th Belkin router 

<edit> And yes, the 614 serves as the Router/(static) DHCP server for the entire network, and is 'uplinked' to the cable modem. And the wireless radios on the D-Link and the Belkins are 4 or 5 channels apart. No interference noticed yet, and the D-Link (which only does WEP) has its 802.11B radio turned down to 12.5% broadcast strength.


----------



## Bob Chadwick

The Belkin router currently has a $60 rebate. I bought one at Best Buy for a net of $9.99.


----------



## markandjenn

My apologies in advance for the long post, but I am having a difficult time trying to execute this network configuration.

I have followed the sage advice on this thread to network 2 SA TiVos to my desktop PC. I have purchased 3 Belkin routers (7230-4) and 2 Linksys network adapters (USB200M) and I have attempted to create a wireless bridged network.

I first set up Belkin Router 1 on my desktop:
IP Address: 192.168.2.1
Subnet Mask: 255.255.255.0
MAC Address: 00:11:50:40:53:FD
Channel: 6
SSID: default
Wireless Mode: 54G-Auto
Broadcast SSID: Yes
Protected Mode: Off
Turbo Mode: Off
WEP: 128bit
Use as Access Point: Disabled
Enable Wireless Bridging: Yes
Enable Only Specific Access Points: Yes
00:11:50:40:51:BD (Belkin Router 2)
00:11:50:40:63:AF (Belkin Router 3)
Disable ability for Wireless Clients to Connect: No

I then set up Belkin Routers 2 and 3 on my laptop. Both of them are set up identically as Router 1 with the following exceptions:
IP Address: 192.168.2.253 (Router 2)/192.168.2.254 (Router 3)
MAC Address: 00:11:50:40:51:BD (Router 2)/00:11:50:40:63:AF (Router 3)
Use as Access Point: Enabled (Routers 2 and 3)
Enable Only Specific Access Points: Yes
00:11:50:40:53:FD (Belkin Router 1)  In Routers 2 and 3
00:11:50:40:51:BD (Belkin Router 2)  In Routers 1 and 3
00:11:50:40:63:AF (Belkin Router 3)  In Routers 1 and 2

As soon as I connect the third router, my network traffic spikes and I cannot access the internet on any PC. The network operates fine if only 2 of the three routers are connected. When I just have 2 of the routers (1 as router, 1 as AP) I can see both of the routers fine from both my PC and my laptop through IE by typing in the IP addresses. I have added the MAC addresses for the routers to Enable Only Specific Access Points screen and alternatively to the MAC Control List screen with the same results. 

As far as connecting the TiVo to the network, I have yet to find success with either set up (either 2 or 3 routers/access points.) When I try to connect via TCP/IP, I either get a message that the TiVo cannot access the gateway or cannot obtain an address from the DHCP server, depending on how I try to connect the TiVo to the network. When I connect the laptop using the same set up (using the router as AP and running a network cable from the AP to the USB200M,) I can obtain an IP address for the laptop, but I cannot do the same for the TiVo.

First off, I am looking for advice on how to set up the Router and Access Points in such a way to not lock up my internet connection. 

Second, I have to assume that I am missing something in my set up on the TiVo and am looking for advice on how to set up the TCP/IP connection on my TiVo. 

Thanks in advance for your help.


----------



## ashu

You might have a different firmware than mine. IIRC, all my routers see each other's MACs.

Try letting 2 and 3 ONLY connect to 1, but letting 1 see 2 and 3.

As for missing gateway/DHCP - You need to enable "Access Point Usage" on the first. If its disabled, it better be connected (via one of the 4 patch, not the WAN port) to a separate router which handles DHCP/routing (I use my D-Link because it has superior features, firewalling, tunneling, VPN support etc)


----------



## markandjenn

ashu said:


> You might have a different firmware than mine. IIRC, all my routers see each other's MACs.


My firmware is 4.05.03. 


ashu said:


> Try letting 2 and 3 ONLY connect to 1, but letting 1 see 2 and 3.


I had tried to have each connect to only one other, but tried to connect them in a continuous chain 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 1. I will try your recommendation.


ashu said:


> As for missing gateway/DHCP - You need to enable "Access Point Usage" on the first. If its disabled, it better be connected (via one of the 4 patch, not the WAN port) to a separate router which handles DHCP/routing (I use my D-Link because it has superior features, firewalling, tunneling, VPN support etc)


I do have DHCP enabled on the router and it was able to obtain an IP address when I connected the AP to the USB200M to the laptop, but I could not do the same for the TiVo. I am assuming (maybe incorrectly) that I am not adjusting the settings on the TiVo correctly.

I have tried to obtain and IP automatically and have tried to set up the connection manually. Based on the information I posted above, can you make some recommendations on what my configuration should be?


----------



## eibgrad

Don't have time right this minute to look further, but a quick check, make sure NAT is disabled on routers (eh, APs) #2 and #3, see System Setting menu option.

P.S. NEVER, EVER do a setup w/ encryption enabled! It only adds to the confusion, if you run without encryption during initial configuration, it's one less potential source of the problem. Only after all the connections are working should you enable encryption.

Another point, I'm wondering if perhaps you are filtering out the MAC address of the Tivos. Remember, each of those USB200M's has a MAC address, and if you've enabled filtering on one or more of the routers/APs, you have to INCLUDE those MAC addresses in your ALLOW list. I'm not talking about the wireless bridging section, but the MAC address control section for clients. For example, the AP I have attached to my router ONLY allows the MAC addresses of the D-Link DUB-E100 ethernet adapters on my Tivos, nothing else (for security reasons). On the other hand, all my downstream routers (similar to your #2 and #3) having MAC filtering OFF (perhaps I should add them as well, but as of now, I haven't done so). As I recall, the reason I didn't was my concern that I might lock myself out from their configuration interface unless I also added my primary PC, laptop, and other computers from which I usually manage the APs. Was just too much hassle, but since I'm connected to the primary router via wire, I decided to at least add MAC filters there.

eibgrad


----------



## pcar1947

Thanks for the response to my message. I will continue to study this and try and acquire the Belkin routers necessary. 

For me since I have an investment in Linksys ( WRT54GS, GS PCI Card) I will consider changing out these components as well.

Then of course I have to get this past the Change Control Board at the house ( MY WIFE AND DAUGHTER) before I can implement any changes into the network.

Thanks again


----------



## markandjenn

Thanks ashu and eibgrad!

I followed your advice and was able to see my TiVo on my network. I turned off security and changed the series in which I connected my access points and was able to see one of my TiVos. I did not have the chance to do the second one yet, but should be able to connect it when I get home. 

Originally, I just changed the series in which I connected my APs, but by coincidence, one of the addresses I chose for my APs (192.168.2.254) was the same as the IP address that was assigned to the TiVo and it caused me to have to reset all of my routers and APs and start again. 

As far as the settings for TiVo, apparently the TiVo was able to set them automatically without any intervention on my behalf.

When I get home, I still need to add the second TiVO to the network and test the speeds.

Thanks again.


----------



## ashu

AFTER getting things working, don't forget to turn your security back on! Things *should* continue to work smoothly


----------



## strahd_zarovich

Belkin routers for $9.99 at CircuitCity.


----------



## Grimm1

Couple of questions here. From what I have read this seems to have started out as a way to get wireless G to work with TiVo before TiVo was supporting it. 

Now that the latest updates support G what advantages are there to using the Belkin router/wired adapter solution over just a wireless G adapter? 

Also in regards to the Belkin rebates....where do you get these? For example if I do the Home Depot price match that was mentioned will Home Depot have the rebate or is there a link that I can print out?


----------



## rog

Grimm1 said:


> Couple of questions here. From what I have read this seems to have started out as a way to get wireless G to work with TiVo before TiVo was supporting it.


True.



Grimm1 said:


> Now that the latest updates support G what advantages are there to using the Belkin router/wired adapter solution over just a wireless G adapter?


Unfortunately, the support for 802.11g adapters is still immature. The TiVo software has not yet been fully optimized for 11g support. Many posters on this forum have reported 11g transfer speeds that are actually slower than known 11b transfer speeds.

Here's a post from TiVoBill.

The technique outlined in this thread will (for now) get you the highest transfer rates possible for wireless TiVoToGo transfers.


----------



## bobcarn

Grimm1 said:


> Couple of questions here. From what I have read this seems to have started out as a way to get wireless G to work with TiVo before TiVo was supporting it.
> 
> Now that the latest updates support G what advantages are there to using the Belkin router/wired adapter solution over just a wireless G adapter?
> 
> Also in regards to the Belkin rebates....where do you get these? For example if I do the Home Depot price match that was mentioned will Home Depot have the rebate or is there a link that I can print out?


There's a couple of reasons why a wired adapter (USB ethernet adapter for the Tivo) connected to a wireless bridge is preferable.

With wireless and wired, the Tivo itself (since it's a computer) is handling the setup of the adapter, the protocol, negotiation, etc., etc., etc. From reading the threads, it seems that the Tivo, upon startup, initializes the adapter and network settings (like you'd expect), but doesn't necessarily continually refresh the connection. If something interferes with the wireless connection, and it drops, the Tivo doesn't necessarily reinitialize the adapter later to reestablish the connection.

With a wired adapter (USB ethernet adapter), the Tivo is always going to see the adapter. With a static IP address, the adapter will always be available and TCP/IP will always be there. Even if there's a disruption and the wireless signal is dropped by the wireless bridge, the Tivo is still going to have a connection to the bridge through the ethernet adapter. The bridge will maintain its own connection and (hopefully) recover from disruptions, and the Tivo will already have its connection maintained. To the Tivo, the network is always available, even if it can't reach a certain device. With a wireless adapter, the network itself can become unavailable.

There's also less overhead in communicating with a plain ethernet adapater than in communicating to a wireless adapter. Simply put, simple ethernet is much easier and problem-free than wireless. So by letting the wireless equipment handle itself (through bridging or whatever), and letting the Tivo only have to worry about a simple ethernet connection, you get better stability and (most likely) throughput.

That is at least the way I understand it after reading of the various configurations and problems in these threads. I have a simple USB ethernet adapater hooked up to my Tivo, plugged into a Linksys 5-port switch, and that connects to my router via an 802.11b bridge. Even with the "b" protocol, I get good throughput and rarely have any problems. The only time I have a problem is sometimes streaming music when my PC goes to sleep.


----------



## CrispyCritter

bobcarn said:


> There's also less overhead in communicating with a plain ethernet adapater than in communicating to a wireless adapter. Simply put, simple ethernet is much easier and problem-free than wireless. So by letting the wireless equipment handle itself (through bridging or whatever), and letting the Tivo only have to worry about a simple ethernet connection, you get better stability and (most likely) throughput.


Nice post. The other major related point in favor of a wired adapter on the TiVo and bridging, is that wireless networks are changing very rapidly, and Linux wireless drivers (needed on the TiVo) are not being supplied (by the manufacturers or Linux community) very fast, if at all. Thus if you ever upgrade your wireless network, it may be hard to even find new wireless adapters supported by TiVo.


----------



## wombat2010

ashu said:


> Wombat - glancing at the G820 manual ...
> 1. try turning off Super G mode in all forms (Advanced Tab, Performance menu) - my Belkins work better when all fancy-schamncy hi-speed and turbo modes are OFF.
> 2. This device needs the Gateway and DNS to be your router's IP (set these on the TiVo and the XBOX)
> 3. If possible, try to connect TWO devices via the bridge, with your Linksys used as a switch in VERY close proximity to the main router (your PC and XBOX should be easy to manage). Both wired. This will ensure interference at the distance/range you're using it at normally, isn't the culprit.
> 
> Finally, not what you want to hear - this is a "Gaming adapter". Fancy packging and more limited firmware. IMHO you would have been better with the (less intentionally crippled, as I've discovered gaming adapters to be!) G810 instead. Can you exchange this at the point of purchase?


As it turns out, your final comment about gaming adapters turned out to be right. I will spare all the details because I've posted an update in another thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2799998#post2799998

Suffice it to say, it's a tad frustrating that an old wireless bridge has more capabilities than a new wireless game adapter. Glad I hadn't sold that WET11 yet, or I'd still be scratching my head. Now I just have to figure out whether the G810 (which is a bridge, not a game adapter) will work like the WET11. Maybe I'll have to get a WET54G. Argh!

Anyway, thank you for your help as I tried to unravel this mess. At least now I know where the problem lies!


----------



## eibgrad

Heads up, folks, yet another Belkin F5D7230-4 router deal!

eibgrad


----------



## NiteStrider

I'm having an issue specifically using the Tivo-to-Go desktop to recognize my Tivo.

I'll list the key facts out in order to get the point fast:

1) I've got the bridged network up and running using 2 Linksys WRT54gs
2) my Tivo can get to the Internet for updates
3) I can connect to my Tivo via the 4ttps:// method

*What I can't do is see my Tivo from my Tivo-to-Go software server on my 192.168.1.x network*, mainly because I have the second WRT54g giving out DHCP in the 192.168.2.x range.

*Question: Is it possible to put both side of the 2nd router on the same subnet (and by extension, all devices connected to it)?*

Here's my setup:

PC 1 192.168.1.x
|
PC 2 (Tivo server) 192.168.1.x
|
Router 1 (AP) 192.168.1.x
{
{Wireless
{
Router 2 192.168.1.x (Static IP for external interface via wireless)

Router 2 192.168.2.x (LAN IP)
|
Tivo 192.168.2.x


----------



## rog

NiteStrider said:


> I'm having an issue specifically using the Tivo-to-Go desktop to recognize my Tivo.
> 
> I'll list the key facts out in order to get the point fast:
> 
> 1) I've got the bridged network up and running using 2 Linksys WRT54gs
> 2) my Tivo can get to the Internet for updates
> 3) I can connect to my Tivo via the 4ttps:// method
> 
> *What I can't do is see my Tivo from my Tivo-to-Go software server on my 192.168.1.x network*, mainly because I have the second WRT54g giving out DHCP in the 192.168.2.x range.
> 
> *Question: Is it possible to put both side of the 2nd router on the same subnet (and by extension, all devices connected to it)?*
> 
> Here's my setup:
> 
> PC 1 192.168.1.x
> |
> PC 2 (Tivo server) 192.168.1.x
> |
> Router 1 (AP) 192.168.1.x
> {
> {Wireless
> {
> Router 2 192.168.1.x (Static IP for external interface via wireless)
> 
> Router 2 192.168.2.x (LAN IP)
> |
> Tivo 192.168.2.x


Yes, it should be possible. Linking the same subnet together with two devices _is_ bridging. I think the term bridging has taken on a new morphed meaning with wireless devices. With switched Ethernet networks, bridging always meant connecting two separate networks together but on the same subnet: 192.168.1.x to 192.168.1.x.

Example: a growing small business opens a second office. They lease a point to point T1 and setup two routers in bridging mode. Both offices are on the same LAN and subnet: 192.168.1.x. That simplifies things quite a bit and is often done.

Anyway, I digress. You should be able to do that with your wireless devices. What's stopping you from trying?


----------



## NiteStrider

Wasn't there something about not having two different interfaces on a router on the same subnet? I know Cisco (and by extension Linksys) has a limitation like that.

So what do you suggest? Simply change the internal IP of the second router to the same subnet as the external IP (192.168.1.x)?


----------



## rog

NiteStrider said:


> Wasn't there something about not having two different interfaces on a router on the same subnet? I know Cisco (and by extension Linksys) has a limitation like that.
> 
> So what do you suggest? Simply change the internal IP of the second router to the same subnet as the external IP (192.168.1.x)?


Yes, that is what I am suggesting. Haven't you done that on the first router already?

You may be correct about limitations on wireless routers. To be honest I don't know as I haven't tried to bridge wireless devices (only wired ones, sorry).

Ashu?


----------



## strahd_zarovich

Free Belkin


----------



## ashu

strahd_zarovich said:


> Free Belkin


DON'T BUY THAT! That's a 6231-4.

Well, unless you want a B bridge!

Why bother when a G device can be had for a $23 profit (whoa there, eibgrad!)


----------



## ashu

NiteStrider said:


> *Question: Is it possible to put both side of the 2nd router on the same subnet (and by extension, all devices connected to it)?*


THAT specifically is something I'm quite sure the Linksys can do (no personal experience, but it bridges the same way! You seem to be using your second as a wired client getting its IP from the first one!)



NiteStrider said:


> Here's my setup:
> 
> PC 1 192.168.1.x
> |
> PC 2 (Tivo server) 192.168.1.x
> |
> Router 1 (AP) 192.168.1.x
> {
> {Wireless
> {
> Router 2 192.168.1.x (Static IP for external interface via wireless)
> 
> Router 2 192.168.2.x (LAN IP)
> |
> Tivo 192.168.2.x


Why not turn off DHCP and routing on Router 2? Of course, you then have to use the (2nd) Linksys in Bridge mode. This may be something the default firmware doesn't support (Linksys owners ... HELP?) and necessitates installation of pay-firmware from Sveasoft (a 3rd party).

I'd hunt down the corresponding threads on anandtech.com forums - they discuss this in great detail. Although I sem to remember someone describing it earlier in this thread as well!


----------



## JFalc

I am a network novice.
I have read the threads about the benefit of BELKIN and I think I understand most of what you are explaining.

I need to go out and buy several items of hardware but I have questions first.

My current configuration.

I have TWO TIVOS
540 series 2 and
140 (older) Series 2
THESE ARE NOT PRESENTLY NETWORKED.

I want to set up a wireless network with my computer and two Tivos all connected (I also eventually want to have wireless G laptop capability in the event I buy a laptop in the future).

My questions.

How many WIRED ETHERNET USB2.0 adapters will I need? I presume 2 
How many Belkin Routers do I need? (Two? Three? Or Four of these Belkins?)
I realize I will also need a ROUTERis the NETGEAR WGT 624 okay? 
Will I need anything else? 

Am I correct that each TIVO BOX will have a wired ethernet adapter attached to it and a Belkin attached to the wired adapter.

The reason I am asking if I need two three or four of these Belkins is that I am unsure if the TIVO Belkins will link directly with the NETGEAR router, or if I need one or two belkins at the location of the router to first link with the TIVO Belkins and then hook up with a wire to the NETGEAR Router? 

I hope I am making my inquiry clear. Thanks for your help on this. -John


----------



## eibgrad

JFalc said:


> I am a network novice.
> I have read the threads about the benefit of BELKIN and I think I understand most of what you are explaining.
> 
> I need to go out and buy several items of hardware but I have questions first.
> 
> My current configuration.
> 
> I have TWO TIVOS
> 540 series 2 and
> 140 (older) Series 2
> THESE ARE NOT PRESENTLY NETWORKED.
> 
> I want to set up a wireless network with my computer and two Tivos all connected (I also eventually want to have wireless G laptop capability in the event I buy a laptop in the future).
> 
> My questions.
> 
> How many WIRED ETHERNET USB2.0 adapters will I need? I presume 2
> How many Belkin Routers do I need? (Two? Three? Or Four of these Belkins?)
> I realize I will also need a ROUTERis the NETGEAR WGT 624 okay?
> Will I need anything else?
> 
> Am I correct that each TIVO BOX will have a wired ethernet adapter attached to it and a Belkin attached to the wired adapter.
> 
> The reason I am asking if I need two three or four of these Belkins is that I am unsure if the TIVO Belkins will link directly with the NETGEAR router, or if I need one or two belkins at the location of the router to first link with the TIVO Belkins and then hook up with a wire to the NETGEAR Router?
> 
> I hope I am making my inquiry clear. Thanks for your help on this. -John


I wasn't quite sure, but from your post, it sounds like you have no network at all. IOW, perhaps your PC is directly patched to your cable/dsl modem? No switches, no routers, no other PCs, etc. Anyway, I'll assume this is the case for now.

The lack of an existing network is both good and bad news. Good news, in that it provides maximum flexibility, and by extension, minimizes costs by not wasting money on the wrong items. Bad news, in that, as with any network, you want to make sure you have addressed basic network issues, like wired vs. wireless, # of clients, topography, security, etc., independent of your Tivo's. IOW, it's a two step process, you get your network designed and developed, independent of your Tivo's. But you have the advantage of having those decisions made w/ the knowledge that you'll be adding Tivo's to that configuration later.

Assuming you don't have a router, you could buy a Belkin F5D7230-4 router, configure it as a router, with firewall, DHCP, etc., all the usual stuff. Then you buy additional Belkin routers, but configure them as APs only. The built-in bridging capability of these routers/APs is what allows them to communicate. So you can create a wide area wireless network, with each AP essentially a wireless "hub". Since Tivo doesn't not provide an ethernet adapter on the back panel, you need to buy one (1) USB 2.0 ethernet adapter for each one, which is what makes it network enabled (over wire). You then patch your Tivo from the ethernet adapter to the belkin AP (or hub), each AP is wirelessly bridged back to the Belkin router, and whalla, you've got your Tivo running over wireless "G"! It's really not all that complicated, topography-wise. Configuring the APs/hubs can be a little tricky, but once you get past that issue, the basic concepts are pretty straight forward (at least I think so).

But there are other slight variations. For example, some people don't like the Belkin router, as a router. At best, it's just average (some might say a little less than average). But for most people, it's OK, it provides the basic features, although it is lacking in some other areas. Some ppl have decided to use a different brand of router, but disable its wireless. In my case, I much prefer my D-Link DI-624, but unfortunately, it doesn't support wireless bridging, like the Belkins routers do. So I can't simply go out and buy more D-Link routers and configure them as APs. Nor can I bridge Belkin routers to the DI-624's wireless, the WDS features of the Belkin brand are NOT interoperable (i.e., they don't work across brands). So, what I've done is disable the wireless on my DI-624, then patched a Belkin router running in AP mode via ethernet cable over one of the DI-624's LAN ports. In effect, all I've done is add Belkin wireless capability to my DI-624 router. I get the best of both worlds -- all the neat, advanced features of the D-Link DI-624 (but no wireless), combined with ALL the wireless features of the Belkin F5D7230-4 (but no routing features, it's configured strictly as a bridgable AP).

And yet others, like Ashu, have decided to keep their D-Link router *and* it's wireless, and patch a Belkin router in AP mode as an *additional* wireless network. IOW, they maintain two (2) separate wireless networks, perhaps one for "b'" clients, the other for "g" clients (like your Tivo's). This increases effective bandwidth, and as long as you have sufficient channel separation ("b" and "g" share the same 2.4GHz band), it should work.

So there are multiple ways to approach it. The simplest and most likely to avoid complications is to buy just Belkin routers. One is configured as a router, all the rest are APs. If in the future you decide to go for a different router, perhaps one w/ more features, it's easy enough to install it, convert the existing Belkin router back into an AP, and patch it to the new router. It shouldn't even affect the configuration of the rest of your system!

My suggestion is to first buy ONE Belkin F5D7230-4 router, and simply get it networked and supporting your PC, nothing more, don't complicate the issue by introducing Tivo's, USB ethernet adapters, and any of the rest of that nonsense. GET YOUR BASIC NETWORK ESTABLISHED FIRST! Get familiar w/ it, make sure the firewall is working correctly, that security is setup properly, etc. *THEN* consider adding your Tivo's as clients by adding ONE more Belkin router, getting ONE USB network adapter, and getting it on the network. Make sure you can get it all working properly before committing more $$$ than necessary. Once you get one Tivo connected, the second and subequent Tivo's are trivial. Heck, I would make sure, using a long ethernet cable if necessary, that I could get one of my Tivo's connected over wire (directly patched from USB adapter to router LAN port) before even buying the second router!

IOW, always keep it as simple as possible, solve the EASIEST (if not always the most convenient) problem first. Buy equipment only as needed, always try to have small successes and learn from those successes, and NOT try to buy a whole bunch of equipment and build your network in one, big complicated mess. Especially if your not familiar w/ the territory. Yeah, it's easy for some of us to make large, sweeping changes and design decisions, but for a novice, this is fraught with dangers. Very easy to become frustrated otherwise, and waste lots of money on the wrong equipment.

eibgrad


----------



## ashu

Wow - just wow. Your patience knows no bounds  (or do you copy and paste from older posts?)

JFalc - did that help?


----------



## JFalc

You assumed correct, I have no network right now. I do not need advanced features at all so I will not need any special features above and beyond what is offered in the "average" Belkin router.
Very helpful and I will do it step by step so I am not overwhelmed. THANK YOU!!!
-John


----------



## barkowitz

Can I ask you all to weigh in on an issue? What is acceptable signal strength? My varies between 40 to 60% gets above 60. I've dealt with all the obvious issues (no wireless phones or microwaves) and I am wondering about the feasibility of adding an expander to my network.

My set up:

Wireless B (bought a while ago) -- Linksys BEFW11S4 V.2 Wireless Access Point Router.
Linksys Wireless Adapters on two Series 2 TiVos.
Satellite PC with a Linksys Wireless Adapter.
Apple notebook with built in Airporter.
Dell notebook with built in wireless adapter

Since the upgrade, I have been all kinds of problems. My signal strength has not worsened, but my functionality sure has. Can't transfer programs reliably, can't use Tivo Desktop reliably. But my TiVo "phone calls" (wirelessly of course) work perfectly.

So my question is this: Does anyone here recommend the WSB24 extender? I already bought the extended attennas a while ago and they improved signal somewhat, but I don't want to spend another $200 or so to come up with something no better than I have now.

Any other recommendations other than the WSB24 or should I stick with Linksys now that I am already this far into it?

Thanks in advance for any advice...


----------



## rog

barkowitz, just a thought here... 

You might think about just replacing your older 802.11b Linksys wireless access point + router for a newer 11g model. The WRT54G is a popular choice and can be found inexpensively online or in retail stores. 

Wireless equipment has come a long way. My experiences with wireless gear have been more pleasurable as the technology has matured. 

Of course, all your other current 11b equipment will still work with the newer 11g router if you leave it in the default "mixed mode". Newer 11g airport cards, etc., will take advantage of the higher speeds while your other devices continue to work at 11b rates. 

My gut says this would take care of some of your problems, but I'm sure others will have some different ideas too.


----------



## Grimm1

eibgrad said:


> But there are other slight variations. For example, some people don't like the Belkin router, as a router. At best, it's just average (some might say a little less than average). But for most people, it's OK, it provides the basic features, although it is lacking in some other areas. Some ppl have decided to use a different brand of router, but disable its wireless. In my case, I much prefer my D-Link DI-624, but unfortunately, it doesn't support wireless bridging, like the Belkins routers do. So I can't simply go out and buy more D-Link routers and configure them as APs. Nor can I bridge Belkin routers to the DI-624's wireless, the WDS features of the Belkin brand are NOT interoperable (i.e., they don't work across brands). So, what I've done is disable the wireless on my DI-624, then patched a Belkin router running in AP mode via ethernet cable over one of the DI-624's LAN ports. In effect, all I've done is add Belkin wireless capability to my DI-624 router. I get the best of both worlds -- all the neat, advanced features of the D-Link DI-624 (but no wireless), combined with ALL the wireless features of the Belkin F5D7230-4 (but no routing features, it's configured strictly as a bridgable AP).
> eibgrad


All I have in my network right now is a D-Link router (DI-604) which I think is pretty much a DI-624 without the wireless capability. From what your saying it would probably be best leaving the DI-604 in place and adding a Belkin to it configured as a bridgable AP instead of replacing the DI-604 with the Belkin.


----------



## ashu

Grimm1 said:


> All I have in my network right now is a D-Link router (DI-604) which I think is pretty much a DI-624 without the wireless capability. From what your saying it would probably be best leaving the DI-604 in place and adding a Belkin to it configured as a bridgable AP instead of replacing the DI-604 with the Belkin.


Precisely.

'Patch' them together (one of the 4 downlink ports on EACH). Oh, an first configure the Belkin, with your PC directly connected to it and on the same subnet (1992.168.2.xxx) to NOT do any routing or DHCP. Turn it into a dumb, bridgable, wireless switch and access point.


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## barkowitz

Update:

I bought the WSB24 (Linksys Wireless Signal Booster) from a seller on ebay ($70 instead of the $199 retail) and it works excellently (if there is such a word).

My signal strength immediately improved from 40s to 70s (I actually see the word "excellent" for signal strength -- what a shock) and I can actually watch programs as they transfer.

I am one happy puppy...


----------



## hitech_rednek

Wow - interesting thread. I had been looking at Linksys routers/APs to see if any of them could run in bridge mode, and all I found was the "Game" adapter, which would work but I haven't seen any discounts/rebates on it.

Just curious - does anyone know if the Belkin A+G or Pre-N routers can run in bridge mode? I did some quick checking but without downloading a large User Guide (18.5MB for the A+G or 35MB for Pre-N) I can't seem to find out whether they do or don't.

I doubt the Pre-N stuff could be had cheaply now but if I could snag a good deal on a pair of A+G routers that would bridge, I'd rather run my TiVo's on 11a at 54Mb/sec (rated) and leave my 11b stuff alone. Adding 11g but still having 11b stuff around causing the 11g to run at 22Mb/sec or worse is not a great improvement (some, but not great ;-) ) 

I also have a USB Print Server (wired, not wireless) for my good photo printer but can't seem to come up with a good location for it that will be convenient to wire, so adding a cheap wireless bridge to this would be nice too. The wireless USB Print Servers are still in the $70+ range. I got this wired one for about $20 after rebates.


----------



## ashu

rednek - find out for us!

And what is 18.5MB these days? I'd argue that if you don't have the means (bandwidth) to find out, you don't need a fast home network anyway. Prove me wrong! 

<edit> One of the HUGE advantages of pre-N equipment is their ability to overcome ths silly radio limitations of a/b/g - which only allow one channel (connection) to be active at a time. Add even a second wireless device, and watch your individual bandwidths plummet by 50% (plus overhead!) 

This would be especially true of pre-N bridges, which would presumably (have multiple devices connected toe ach and ) maximize bandwidth and use all available (2? 8?) channels for data transmission among themselves! Finally -wireless scalability!


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## hitech_rednek

Hehe, ok you have a point. What is 18.5MB - I have DSL. But I'm a bit of an 'old timer' when it comes to bandwidth...I started out with a 300baud modem and thought I'd died and gone to heaven the first time I used 9600baud. So I still am a bit frugal with the bandwidth unless I have a good reason to use it. Ok - this is a good reason. I'll get the manuals and determine if they can do this also. Will report back soon. ;-P


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## hitech_rednek

Hmmm....the in User Manuals for both the Pre-N model (F5D8230-4) and the A+G (F6D3230-4) the section on "Using the Access Point Mode" reads *exactly* the same as the 11b model (F5D6231-4):



> *Using the Access Point Mode*
> Note: This advanced feature should be employed by advanced
> users only. The Router can be configured to work as a wireless
> network access point. Using this mode will defeat the NAT IP sharing
> feature and DHCP server. In AP mode, the Router will need to be
> configured with an IP address that is in the same subnet as the
> rest of the network that you will bridge to. The default IP address
> is 192.168.2.254 and subnet mask is 255.255.255.0. These can be
> customized for your needs.
> 1. Enable the AP mode my selecting Enable in the Use as Access
> Point only page. When you select this option, you will be able to
> change the IP settings.
> 2. Set your IP settings to match your network. Click
> Apply Changes.
> 3. Connect a cable from the WAN port on the Router to your
> existing network.
> The Router is now acting as an A+G access point. To access
> the Routers Advanced User Interface again, type the IP address
> you specified into your browsers navigation bar. You can set the
> encryption settings, MAC address filtering, SSID, and
> channel normally.


If I were reading this and didn't already know from this thread that people were using this as a client bridge (bridging to another router/AP) I wouldn't think this meant that was possible. So, since it reads the same, it would appear that these routers has the same capability as the 11b model. Does anyone here own either of these already, who could possibly experiment with them? I will probably poke around for some really cheap deals on these and if I see any I may grab a few.

One thing that I'm impressed with is that the Pre-N and A+G models also support WPA and I think the A+G even supports 802.1x with a RADIUS Server (I've done this in the corporate enterprise before) although most people don't care to set up a RADIUS server for authentication, along with either a Certificate Authority or Active Directory user ID authentication. Some of the other features in the Belkin are quite encouraging also.


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## ashu

Well, what're you waiting for? Go out and buy a few of these puppies to test this out 

eibgrad already mentioned that its unreasonable (and even impossible, per firmware specs) for the 125MBPS (yeah right) hyper-G (or whatever they call it) 7231-4 to show an improvement in performance, because it lapses back to 54MBPS in Bridge mode, hopefully buy multiple, open only one first and see whether this is the case (you'll know when you go into the WDS settings, and then confirm the speeds in the wireless menu)


----------



## hitech_rednek

ashu said:


> Well, what're you waiting for? Go out and buy a few of these puppies to test this out
> [...]


Riiiiiiiight..... 

Well, I was thinking about this a bit and the only reason(s) I would want to bother with this are:

1) Academic curiosity, which I have in abundance  I've wasted (?) countless hours diddling with stuff to see if something with little or no long-term value would work.  Still doesn't stop me from doing it sometimes. 

2) Giving back to the forum - I've only been here a short time and have learned some quite useful things. I'd like to contribute myself whenever possible.

3) Speed gain for one of my TiVo's - I have 3 and only one is wireless at 11b. But I've done transfers to/from this one and it doesn't seem to take an excruciatingly long time. I can probably live with the speed indefinitely.

4) Security - since it may not be possible to do WPA in bridge mode, this may be moot unless a firmware upgrade adds this functionality.

If I can find a really good deal on any of this stuff, I think I'll do it. If somebody else beats me to it, that's fine too.


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## eibgrad

Yes, yet another FREE Belkin router, only this time it's the Belkin F5D7231-4 125mbps HSM model.

Remember, this *will* interoperate as an AP/wireless bridge with other F5D7231-4 *and* F5D7230-4 routers (standard "G"). When configured in a wireless bridging mode (i.e., WDS enabled), the F5D7231-4 downgrades to standard "G" anyway, so there's no particular advantage of having the F5D7231-4 over the slower F5D7230-4.

Beyond the speed difference, there's virtually no difference between the two. Only thing that comes to mind is the F5D7231-4 has a smaller footprint compared to older F5D7230-4 models. Obviously the F5D7231-4 will have a little more resale value too.

eibgrad


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## enza

Folks I went out and purchased the Pre-N router and unless I am missing something, it does not support bridging. If you do a search on bridging on the Belkin website on the following shows up:
Belkin Knowledge Base Article ID: 2814 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How To: Configure WDS (Wireless Bridging) with the 54g router 

The information in this article applies to the following products: 
802.11g Wireless DSL/Cable Gateway Router (F5D7230-4)
802.11g Wireless Network Access Point (F5D7130) 

Summary 
This article describes how to configure WDS (Wireless Bridging) in the 54g router

I may be missing it but I've looked through the manual and have not seen anything on bridging the Pre-N, which sucks because the range on this thing is amazing. Anyone have any other suggestions?


----------



## eibgrad

enza said:


> Folks I went out and purchased the Pre-N router and unless I am missing something, it does not support bridging. If you do a search on bridging on the Belkin website on the following shows up:
> Belkin Knowledge Base Article ID: 2814
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> How To: Configure WDS (Wireless Bridging) with the 54g router
> 
> The information in this article applies to the following products:
> 802.11g Wireless DSL/Cable Gateway Router (F5D7230-4)
> 802.11g Wireless Network Access Point (F5D7130)
> 
> Summary
> This article describes how to configure WDS (Wireless Bridging) in the 54g router
> 
> I may be missing it but I've looked through the manual and have not seen anything on bridging the Pre-N, which sucks because the range on this thing is amazing. Anyone have any other suggestions?


According to Tom's Hardware review of NETGEAR RangeMax Wireless Router (WPN824), you're right, no WDS support (see Wireless Features section, very last paragraph):

_"Missing features include no ability to set transmit power level, force the transmit rate, or set the advertised base rate. And, finally, as with other current MIMO products, the 824 does not support wireless bridging or repeating."_

Not surprising though. WDS can't even support WPA as yet (at most WEP) because of the complexites of managing continually and randomly changing keys. The architecture of pre-N is probably different enough that hoping for WDS support is unrealistic, at least at this time. Personally, I'm leery of jumping on the pre-N stuff until it's adopted, irrespective of WDS support.

Remember, one of the big motivations here in using the Belkin F5D7230-4 and F5D7231-4 routers is economics, they're DIRTY CHEAP! The lack of WDS support by ANY vendor doesn't preclude building a distributed wireless network w/ the ol' standby, vendor supplied APs (access point). Only issue there is price ($80 minimum for 802.11b/g, I assume MIMO APs are even higher). So if you're willing to endure the expense of pre-N today, perhaps another price exacted is needing to use pre-N APs. IOW, it comes w/ the territory. Maybe once "N" is adopted, WDS will have been addressed, maybe even interoperable w/ other vendors and even WPA support (one can always hope). Athough by then Belkin's pre-N might be non-standard , who knows. That's the risk of heading down the pre-N/MIMO/RangeMax road today.

eibgrad


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## ashu

Although (if WDS WERE to be supported, perhaps in a quick firmware revision, but before the N standard is set) there's something to be said about owning a set of independent, interoperable and hard to hack (because no one has the right kind of cards to scan your packets!) routers/bridges, especially if Belkin's standard becoms the non-standard down the line


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## branley

Wow, this thread is long. Its a bit difficult to determine what the "group" recommends at this point. Can you perhaps summarize what you all have learned over the year and a half of this thread?

I just received my 2nd Tivo. I have a Wireless G network in my house. My first Tivo is hooked to the network via standard USB 1.1 external ethernet card and my router is a US Robotics.

I've seen several recommendations in this thread, from using gaming adapters to using multiple routers that support bridging. One question I have, is if I have to alter the connection from my current networked Tivo (the external ethernet card), or can I just leave that as is, and only concern myself with putting the new tivo online via wifi (which, btw, is too far away for a wired connection). 

What network setup do you recommend considering where I currently stand today?

Brian


----------



## eibgrad

ashu said:


> Although (if WDS WERE to be supported, perhaps in a quick firmware revision, but before the N standard is set) there's something to be said about owning a set of independent, interoperable and hard to hack (because no one has the right kind of cards to scan your packets!) routers/bridges, especially if Belkin's standard becoms the non-standard down the line


Ashu is definitely a "glass is half full" kinda guy 

eibgrad


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## ashu

branley - I have NO IDEA where you stand unelss you post your location in your profile!

As to your questions - one excellent summary post is linked in my sig - its by that "glass half empty, but I have many, many routers so I'm happy" guy eibgrad.

<edit> That recommendation (and my own solution, based ther-upon) inolves cheap Belkin F5D7230-4 routers running in Bridged (WDS) mode. At 10 each, and upto 4 permitted to bridge together, you can't beat that  And it involves no changes to your TiVo wired (network) setup - just let it 'get the IP from the router' (DHCP) as before.


----------



## branley

ashu,

I've been watching the local ads for about a month here and so far no luck on those belkins. They are still running about $70 -$80.

Can I leave my first tivo connected via usb external ethernet card? It doesn't need to be wifi does it?

And there's no way to just get one belkin and bridge it with my current US Robotics I'm guessing. So I'll have to trash that?


----------



## ashu

Microcenter has it for 39.99 and a 30 rebate. I believe this is valid online too (pay tax, save shipping) - if you're not fortunate enough to have an MC in your neighborhood.

Also keep an eye out for discounts on the 7231-4 - I think eibgrad mentioned one yesterday/today! It was a slickdeals link, I think. For our purposes, it would be identical.

And yes - you can bridge Belkins to Belkins only (or VERY similar hardwar - some reported success with *some* Linksys, Apple Airport, Broadcomm-based units (bridges and AP/routers). But YMMV! So you'd need 2 (or more). Don't forget their silly one-rebate-per-offer-per-address/household limitation. (Which is as evil as the concept of rebates). I have no problem circumventing crud like that by using multiple address/shipping info/credit cards etc


----------



## branley

ashu said:


> Also keep an eye out for discounts on the 7231-4 - I think eibgrad mentioned one yesterday/today! It was a slickdeals link, I think. For our purposes, it would be identical.


I missed that post, and I forgot to check Circuit City's ad. Wonderful! I'll get two of those today.

Repeating one of my previous questions: Can I leave my current Tivo wired via external ethernet to one of the these belkins and not use wifi for it? My cable box would go into that same belkin as well, and then the 2nd belkin would be in the backroom connected to my 2nd tivo. Is that ok? I don't need to have a router on the cable box, and then a seperate belkin for each tivo do I?


----------



## ashu

Either you're missing the point, or I'm not putting it across well enough - ONE of your Belkins can become your router as well and be the device the otehr Belkins bridge with. Any of all these (up to 4) Belkins can have devices connected to it as if they were connected to a wired network.

eibgrad and I use our D-Link's as our routers, and each of our belkins are configured identically (routing/NAT disabled, only Bridging enabled) and behave like a giant, multi-location 4/8/12/16 port switch (depending on how many we're using). ALL devices connected to them have NO wireless setup - and think they're connected wired (which they are - the whole point of a wireless bridge between network locations!)


----------



## ashu

branley said:


> I missed that post, and I forgot to check Circuit City's ad. Wonderful! I'll get two of those today.


Remember - separate stores/counters, receipts, credit cards, home addresses, mailing address on the rebate form etc


----------



## branley

ashu said:


> Either you're missing the point, or I'm not putting it across well enough - ONE of your Belkins can become your router as well and be the device the otehr Belkins bridge with. Any of all these (up to 4) Belkins can have devices connected to it as if they were connected to a wired network.
> 
> eibgrad and I use our D-Link's as our routers, and each of our belkins are configured identically (routing/NAT disabled, only Bridging enabled) and behave like a giant, multi-location 4/8/12/16 port switch (depending on how many we're using). ALL devices connected to them have NO wireless setup - and think they're connected wired (which they are - the whole point of a wireless bridge between network locations!)


Right I think I understood that part. Let me be more specific with some details so be sure we are communicating clearly.

Currently my only networked tivo is connected to my only router (US Robotics) via wired ethernet. That router is also where the cable box connects (duh, sorry). 

So I buy two belkin routers, and one more usb adapter. One of the routers replaces my us robotics, and still has the tivo going to it wired, like now. The other router goes in my bedroom, and I connect the tivo to it via usb ethernet adapter. Then I do all the configuration of the routers, but I'll worry about that later.

All I was concerned with, was whether I really needed three routers, or if two could do it. Wasn't sure if the tivos needed dedicated router/bridges.

Also, now that I think about it, I suppose I need to replace my current usb ethernet adapter because its usb 1.1. So I need to buy two of each.


----------



## branley

ashu said:


> Remember - separate stores/counters, receipts, credit cards, home addresses, mailing address on the rebate form etc


Really? Wow. I didn't do that when I bought the vonage hardware last week. I bought one for my father-in-law and one for me. Both at the same store, same counter, same credit card, though seperate receipts and of course would go to seperate houses. Do you think that will be a problem? Or is that a different case?

Do I really need seperate counters/stores? If I buy one with cash, and one with my credit card, I don't see how anyone could know both purchases were the same person.


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## ashu

Rebates are evil. Slapping on "One per household" rules is even more evil. Sometimes it's two per household. Read your rebate fine print. And make copies. Better yet, have your dad mail one in (or have the mailing address say he did, and let the rebate come back to him!)

And in your scenarios, you can keep OR retain 3 routers. Like I said, Belkin #1 can be merely a dummy bridge (network extension by WDS) device, or ALSO double up with router duties. Meager feature-set, but adequate for most needs!


----------



## enza

Just a quick update:

I now have real-time transfers and a signal strength of 100% on my remote (bedroom) Tivo. Here is my setup:

1. Belkin Pre-N Router
2. Family Room Tivo connected via Linksys USB200M with ethernet cable directly into the Belkin Pre-N router.
3. Bedroom Tivo connected via Linksys WUSB54GP-BP.

The signal strength is at 100% as compared to 50-55% with my dlink wirelessb. This is in a single family home of about 2500 sf, through many walls. The range on the pre-n is amazing, you can get cc to price match wal-marts $132 price, but the whole setup can be done for about $210-$225. Not as cheap as other methods, but easy, very easy.


----------



## popechild

Umm... yeah, so I'm going to give away my lack of knowledge about these things here, but I've got a question. Can this belkin router/usb adapter combo be used to act as a print server for a usb printer, or is that a totally different animal?


----------



## ashu

No USB ports. So it wouldn't work directly.

If you're using a networked Operating System, you could plug the printer into a PC and 'share' it over the home network so other systems could print to it directly anyway. Or buy an ethernt-USB print server to plug into the Belkin - added to the cost of the Belkin, nett cost would still be less than a wireless print server. With more flexibility of course! (3 more ports)


----------



## popechild

ashu said:


> No USB ports. So it wouldn't work directly.
> 
> If you're using a networked Operating System, you could plug the printer into a PC and 'share' it over the home network so other systems could print to it directly anyway. Or buy an ethernt-USB print server to plug into the Belkin - added to the cost of the Belkin, nett cost would still be less than a wireless print server. With more flexibility of course! (3 more ports)


Yeah, I understand there's no USB port on the router (I'm using the Belkin to USB/ethernet "ultimate wireless" setup for my tivos already - thanks in no small part to your posts!) And my printer is currently networked through my desktop, but I use my laptop wirelessly much more often and would prefer to not have to keep the desktop running all the time...

So are you saying that there's a USB-ethernet adapter "print server" that's different than a normal USB-ethernet adapter (like the USB200M's I'm using on the Tivos)? How much would such an animal cost and what would your recommendation be for a model?


----------



## ashu

No clue. But yes - its diff. (and more expensive) than a mere USB-eth networka dapter.

And NOT all prniters will work. Many will not work completely (driver will show features that the interface will no longer support).

If possible, either leave the PC on and install drivers on every system, or get a new printer with a Network Interface! I have a Brother 3820CN (under 200, 4-function!). The Brother 420CN is a small-footprint version for $125ish!


----------



## wbarnes5

HELP!
I just bought a Motorola WE800G Wireless Ethernet Bridge. Using a Trendnet USB to Ethernet adapter, I tried connecting my Series 2 to my network. (I should mention that I have been connected with an 802.11b wireless for sometime now.) 

The problem is that when I connect the adapter and bridge to my Tivo, the Tivo will not recognize the wireless connection. I've rebooted the tivo and done all the normal fixes. I'm open to suggestions from anyone on this subject.


----------



## ashu

TiVo only recognizes wat is directly connected to it. Inthis case - your Trendnet USB-Eth adapter.

Pre-configure your Bridge device to function on the network by connecting it to a PC as per its manuel. THEN connect it to the Trennet and configure TiVo as an ethernet WIRED connection.


----------



## wbarnes5

ashu said:


> TiVo only recognizes wat is directly connected to it. Inthis case - your Trendnet USB-Eth adapter.
> 
> Pre-configure your Bridge device to function on the network by connecting it to a PC as per its manuel. THEN connect it to the Trennet and configure TiVo as an ethernet WIRED connection.


Thanks for your quick reply.

This makes total sense.....but where do you tell the Tivo that it is a wired connection? In setup all I can find is the setup for wireless. Sorry I'm so dense about this.


----------



## wbarnes5

I'm sorry...

It never occured to me to test the connection. Tried it and it worked fine.

Thanks again. This a great forum, and the folks on here really do help out, those of us who are, at times, Tivo Challanged.

The only downside is now that I have this one working, I have to go out and buy another bridge to set up my other Tivo.

Thanks again.


----------



## ashu

Glad you figured it out. Must have been difficult without a manuel. Although I bet a manual was an adequate substitute!

Eye kant speel on wikands.


----------



## branley

I purchased the belkin routers, and the linksys ub 2.0 adapters and installed last night. Everything went very smoothly, and my wife and I settled in to bed last night to watch a recorded show from the living room tivo in the bedroom tivo. At one point it told me it had lost the network connection, but I retried and it worked. We watched an hour last night and an hour this morning. We were so happy.

Today we were out for the day, came home to use our new tivo sharing feature, and it was no longer working. Neither tivo was on the network. As I began to try and retrace my steps my network got screwier and screwier, until I had to completely take it down and build it back up from scratch.

As I put it back together, I found something insteresting. Everytime I set the 2nd router to be an access point and to bridge, my existing network becomes unstable. Trying to use the 1st and main router is sporadic, with every 3rd or fourth request to its admin web site, timing out. I also could not connect to the network via my wifi notebook until I unplugged the 2nd access point.

So as it stands now, my cable modem is plugged into the 1st belkin, as is my first tivo, a desktop pc, and my wifi notebook connects to it. All are working fine.

I now need to get the 2nd router setup with the tivo in my bedroom and that's where I'm having problems.

Any suggestions?


----------



## 1283

1. Are you using WPA? After I set up both units with WPA (just to see what would happen), the wireless network was still working. After reboot, it didn't work. Use WEP instead.

2. Try to disable wireless client connections on the access point.

3. You may just have a bad unit.

BTW, the Belkin router is $10AR again this week at Circuit City.


----------



## branley

c3 said:


> 1. Are you using WPA? After I set up both units with WPA (just to see what would happen), the wireless network was still working. After reboot, it didn't work. Use WEP instead.


I have not used any security at this point. Is security required? I was hoping to get it working without security first, to reduce the initial complexity.


----------



## branley

When I setup the two routers, router A is the one attached to one tivo and the cable modem, and router B is attached to the 2nd tivo.

Router B is setup as an Access point, do I also set it up as a Wireless Bridge?
Router A is setup as a wireless bridge, but not as an access point, right?

I don't see anywhere, that I can instruct router B to connect specifically to router A. Do I have to do that, or does it just connect to whatever router is setup as a wireless bridge?


----------



## ashu

One as Access Point, ALL as Wireless Bridges.

In bridging setup, ensure they accept/bridge with each other's wireless MAC IDs (under router case)


----------



## popechild

Having a wee bit of trouble with the "ulti-wi-net" and thought one of you kind gents might be able to help me.

I say a "wee bit", because at the surface level, everything seems fine. Here's a quick rundown of my setup...

2 tivos (S2 SA in living room, Toshiba H400 in bedroom).
3 locations for belkin routers. (primary "router" connected to desktop in office, then 1 "bridge" each at Tivos in living room and bedroom).
2 Linksys USB200Ms on the Tivos.
1 laptop with belkin wireless network card.

When I setup the belkins, I was having some trouble getting the whole bridge thing to work right, so I ended up basically going step-by-step with a "how-to" I found on google. I'm not sure if this is the best/only way to do it, but I basically...

a) tried to set it up so only the "router" was DHCP enabled at 192.168.2.1(thinking it wouldn't "confuse" anything that way. 
b) hardwired my laptop to other two routers individually and set each of them to bridge - changed one of them to 192.168.2.2 and one to 2.3.
c) When I put in MAC addresses for bridging, I didn't put 2 addresses in all 3 routers. I basically "daisy-chained" them. On the router in the office (on one side of the house), I put in the MAC for the "bridge" in the bedroom (which is in the middle of the house). I that bridge in the bedroom, I put in both the MACs for the office and the living room. In the living room, I only put in the MAC for the bedroom again. I have no idea why I did it this way except it's the way the google how-to did it.

Once it was all plugged in and setup, I went to my config page of the main router at 192.168.2.1. On the DHCP client list, I saw the desktop (hardwired), the laptop (twice for some reason?) and the bedroom Tivo, but not the living room Tivo.

I can see both computers from both Tivos for photos and music, and can see both Tivos from both computers for Tivo Desktop transfers.

So what's wrong?

1) First, I'm just a little worried that my setup seems kind of "ghetto." Is that daisy-chain thing the right way to go? Should I put both "other" MACs on all 3 of the belkins? The how-to also said to only broadcast SSID from the belkin "bridge" in the living room (opposite end of the chain from the router), since that's where I do most of my laptop work, but I ended up setting up the router in the office to broadcast because my laptop wasn't connecting to the network right the other way. Should I set only one / all / other? of them to broadcast? Should they all be the same broadcast SSID if so or different?

2) When I had trouble connecting to the network through the broadcast SSID of the living room "bridge", it started making me wonder if each of the bridges was actually setup correctly. Is it possible the living room bridge didn't get DHCP disabled and is putting my living room Tivo on a different DHCP (since I couldn't see it in the router's DHCP client table? When I changed the IPs of the "bridges" to 2.2 and 2.3 (from the factory 2.1), I was no longer able to access them, so now I'm not sure how to tell if they're correct or not.

3) Even though I thought I changed the bridges to 2.2 and 2.3, I can't ping them. And for some reason, now I can't even reach the router's 2.1 admin page (at least from the wireless laptop). It just times out.

4) Finally, (and the reason I started looking into this whole mess), I've never been able to access either Tivo's nowplaying page through the https://192.168.x.x/nowplaying/index.html link. My transfers using Tivo desktop are SLOW and I'd love to be able to transfer the other way. But when I try to connect to any IP option using the above formula it just times out. No password asking, no nothing.

I realize this may be way more in-depth than it needs to be to ask a few simple questions, but I'd prefer to try to give all the information that might be needed to disect the problem. Please let me know if there's more info needed that I can provide...

Thanks!!!


----------



## 1283

popechild said:


> a) tried to set it up so only the "router" was DHCP enabled at 192.168.2.1(thinking it wouldn't "confuse" anything that way.
> b) hardwired my laptop to other two routers individually and set each of them to bridge - changed one of them to 192.168.2.2 and one to 2.3.


By default, the DHCP server will assign IP addresses starting from 192.168.2.2 through .100. Unless you have changed that range, you should assign the access points to something outside that range.


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## popechild

c3 said:


> By default, the DHCP server will assign IP addresses starting from 192.168.2.2 through .100. Unless you have changed that range, you should assign the access points to something outside that range.


Good call, I forgot to mention that. I did actually change the range to 100-199, and then made the access points 2 & 3.


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## ashu

Bahh - your room NAMES are confusing me ... I'm trying to interpret your setup as 
router1, 2, 3, rooms1, 2 3 (office, bedroom, living room) and devices wired1 (PC 1), wired2 (tivo in bedroom), wired3 (tivo in living room), wireless1 (laptop). 

Make sure ROUTING (and DHCP) are ONLY enabled on Router1 placed in room1. 

Daisy chaining the bridges should be fine (I experimented with this myself), as long as both ENDS have each other's WIRELESS MAC id's recognized/enabled for bridging. (check under router, although your partial success implies this part isn't the issue).

This means, if the daisy chain is via router 2, that router 2 should have two entries (router1 and 3's Wireless MACs) and each of 1 and 3 should have only router2's Wireless MAC listed.

Whether you broadcast SSID or not, all 3 should allow wireless clients for optimal range extension, and all three should include the MAC address of your wireless router (and all other devices' wired MACs, IIRC!) if you're using MAC filtering (different from MAC's permitted for bridging - separate UI page!) - to permit them to connect. This should let your router roam between your 3 wireless AP's seamlessly (I haven't tested this - have no movable wirelss devices - yippee!!) - asper the other threads/HOWTOs out there.

Something in that long ramble should help. Also - if you aren't already - turn off WEP?WPA and set thing sup, THEN re-enable WEP. One less concern/point of failure!


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## popechild

ashu said:


> Bahh - your room NAMES are confusing me ... I'm trying to interpret your setup as
> router1, 2, 3, rooms1, 2 3 (office, bedroom, living room) and devices wired1 (PC 1), wired2 (tivo in bedroom), wired3 (tivo in living room), wireless1 (laptop).
> 
> Make sure ROUTING (and DHCP) are ONLY enabled on Router1 placed in room1.
> 
> Daisy chaining the bridges should be fine (I experimented with this myself), as long as both ENDS have each other's WIRELESS MAC id's recognized/enabled for bridging. (check under router, although your partial success implies this part isn't the issue).
> 
> This means, if the daisy chain is via router 2, that router 2 should have two entries (router1 and 3's Wireless MACs) and each of 1 and 3 should have only router2's Wireless MAC listed.
> 
> Whether you broadcast SSID or not, all 3 should allow wireless clients for optimal range extension, and all three should include the MAC address of your wireless router (and all other devices' wired MACs, IIRC!) if you're using MAC filtering (different from MAC's permitted for bridging - separate UI page!) - to permit them to connect. This should let your router roam between your 3 wireless AP's seamlessly (I haven't tested this - have no movable wirelss devices - yippee!!) - asper the other threads/HOWTOs out there.
> 
> Something in that long ramble should help. Also - if you aren't already - turn off WEP?WPA and set thing sup, THEN re-enable WEP. One less concern/point of failure!


Thanks a bunch for the helpful suggestions. i went back in to try a few things this afternoon and basically was able to get it all working... yes! It may have been just a matter of unplugging everything and "re-setting" it all in the ideal order, but I also went ahead and put both of the other MAC's on the main router's bridge page just to make sure the daisy-chaining wasn't causing a problem.

Now everything's working great and I can see the nowplaying page!! Also, the main router (x.x.2.1) DHCP client list shows all tivos and computers now (x.x.101-104). Here's my only remaining "huh?" and I can live with it I guess because it's not causing a problem (it just bugs me to not know why it's not working the way I expect!) I can ping everything BUT the access point/router in the living room (router3/room3). Perhaps related, I can access the router admin pages of the main router in the office (room1/router1 - via x.x.2.1) and the one in the bedroom (room2/router2 - via x.x.2.3).

I can't access the one in the living room (room3/router3 - x.x.2.2 I think) in addition to not being able to ping it. I had *thought* I setup router1 as x.x.2.1, router2 as 2.2, and router3 as 2.3, but router2 is coming up as 2.3 and nothing's coming up as 2.2. So I either never changed router3's IP to 2.2 or I accidentally set two of the routers (2&3) to 2.3. Either way, it bugs me that I can't access the admin page for it.

Is there a way for me to figure out what the router's IP is? Some kind of scan perhaps to see what IPs are being used on the network? (not DHCP assigned mind you, but static router IPs). I'd like to be able to access this setup menu. Alternatively, I guess I could "reset" router3 and try to start over with it, but I'm convinced I would never get the whole thing working right again.

Thanks so much for the suggestions so far - any further suggestions on how to get my ulti-wi-net working it's ulti-best?


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## ashu

hmm ... I have brain freeze now. I'd recommend a rest/restart on router3. I bet it's something you overlooked.

Oh - or it might be having issues 'routing' to x.x.2.3 because it has two possible paths (via the daisy chain and directly from wired1-connected-to-router1. Try a PC connected directly to router 3 (move it to room1 to test, disconnect PC wired 1 from router1, hook to router3.


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## popechild

I haven't moved it to room 1, but I did hardwire it to the laptop (and removed the laptop's wireless card) earlier. It still found the same stuff though (router1 on 2.1 and router2 on 2.3) - and no luck getting to the router3 admin screen. I also shut it down and restarted as part of my "overall reboot" earlier that fixed most problems, and it was the last thing to get re-started, so I wouldn't think another restart would make a difference at this point.

I'll have to play some with it later and I'll post back if I figure anything out. I realized I actually do need to fix it even though the Tivo/network is working fine otherwise, because I disabled security to get the network running properly when I set it up and I assume I need to get back into the router3 admin page when I reset the security settings, right?

Hmm... maybe I should just try resetting router3 and starting over from scratch with it.


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## hitech_rednek

Responding to this question about Print Servers, but first, thanks to "c3" for mentioning that the Belkin Routers were $10 at Circuit City this week after rebates (both online and in store, I assume...). Since I probably won't make it to the store I plan to order several of these (well, it's one per household so I'll probably have to get someone else to order the 'extra' ones ;-) )

Regarding Print Servers - yes they are different and more expensive, but if you watch you can find some rebate/sale deals on these also. I picked up a Netgear USB-eth Print Server recently for about $20 after rebates to use with one of the several printers in the house, probably the good photo printer but not sure yet, may have to test to see which ones work or don't work with this. I'm not using it yet because I'd like to place this in a 'central' location but don't want to pull Cat5 to any location I've identified yet. So I think I'll hook this up to one of the $10 Belkin Routers set to be a bridge and make it a wireless printer. I haven't seen a wireless USB Print Server for under about $75, but I'll be getting the same functionality for about $30. If you see a really good deal on a wireless USB print server, I'd jump on it.

Wouldn't it be nice if these printers came with a PCMCIA slot and support for popular wireless cards? Yeah, I know, this would probably at least double the price of the printer. Ugh. The HP printer I have supports an optional Bluetooth adapter but it was about $100 so I canned that idea (besides the fact that I don't have anything else that supports Bluetooth yet to talk to it).



ashu said:


> No clue. But yes - its diff. (and more expensive) than a mere USB-eth networka dapter.
> 
> And NOT all prniters will work. Many will not work completely (driver will show features that the interface will no longer support).
> 
> If possible, either leave the PC on and install drivers on every system, or get a new printer with a Network Interface! I have a Brother 3820CN (under 200, 4-function!). The Brother 420CN is a small-footprint version for $125ish!


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## Andrewp75

I am not getting anywhere near the transfer rates that other people are talking about. Not sure what I am doing wrong. At this point here is my setup.

Desktop connected via ethernet cable to Linksys WRT54G

Toshiba Tivo RS-TX20 running 5.4 connected to Linksys WUSB11 (signal 60-65%)

and an 80 hour series 2 tivo running 7.1a connected to a WUSB11 (signal 70-75%).

I am getting transfer rates of about 5-7 megs a min. This is far from real time. Any suggestions on how to speed this up would be greatly appreciated.

I have not really messed with the settings other than 64 bit WEP encryption, and updated the two WSUB11s to the newest firmware versions. One is revsison 2.4 and the other is revision 2.8.

Thank you all in advance for your helpful and insightful repsonses.

A


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## bd4tru

At the risk that this has been mentioned earlier, it's important to note that 54Mbps and 11Mbps spak to the Mega BITS per second, not Mega BYTES. Thus, the theorhetical best 54Mbps can achieve would be 54/8=6.75 megaBYTES per second. This is something to take into account when making these networks. 

As I see it, a USB 1.1 (12 Mbps) wireless device would be restricted to 1.5 megaBYTES per second (12/8=1.5). Thoughts??


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## ashu

Valid point ... but have you also noticed that when threads get REALLY long, nobody bothers to read page 1?


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## hitech_rednek

bd4tru said:


> At the risk that this has been mentioned earlier, it's important to note that 54Mbps and 11Mbps spak to the Mega BITS per second, not Mega BYTES. Thus, the theorhetical best 54Mbps can achieve would be 54/8=6.75 megaBYTES per second. This is something to take into account when making these networks.
> 
> As I see it, a USB 1.1 (12 Mbps) wireless device would be restricted to 1.5 megaBYTES per second (12/8=1.5). Thoughts??


Not only that, but try dividing it in half. 802.11b,g, and a protocols have a 50% overhead factor (where ethernet has maybe 12-15%, I don't remember exactly). This is because of the CSMA-CA strategy used in these standards. The "CA" stands for "Collision Avoidance" - a lot of time is spent making sure 2 nodes aren't trying to talk at the same time.


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## 1283

I tested transfer rates last weekend with the belkin routers, copying large files from one PC to another. 100Mbps wired (PC-router-PC): about 5MB/s. 54Mbps wireless (PC-access point-air-router-PC): about 1MB/s.


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## bd4tru

These are exactly the responses I had hoped to generate with my earlier post. This is a distinction that is lost on many people. Anyway, as long as my network is working, I can't complain too much about the speed. Well, . . . maybe I can.


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## wbarnes5

Encountered another problem with my Ultimate Set up. Got both G Bridges working on each of 2 Tivo's. They test fine. I can see what's on each Tivo from my PC, but can't transfer from one Tivo to the other.

Any suggestions?


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## ashu

wbarnes5 said:


> Encountered another problem with my Ultimate Set up. Got both G Bridges working on each of 2 Tivo's. They test fine. I can see what's on each Tivo from my PC, but can't transfer from one Tivo to the other.
> 
> Any suggestions?


Hmm - do you have two Belkins (#1 and #2) - one at each TiVo - and a third (#3) where your PC is? Try this setup - 
- #1 points to the Wireless MAC of #2 and #3 in its Bridging/WDX menu
- #2 only lists #1
- #3 only lists #1

Let us know if that works.


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## Irishman

Ashu, I almost agree with you except........

I use Linksys with WDS but I don't think this would be different for Belkin.

On each unit I would list the MAC address of the other two. 

Ashu's config works for transfering from tivo (2 & 3) router to pc router just fine. But if you want to transfer from tivo to tivo you don't want to make an extra hop across the pc router. in his config, this would be the result. Remember, in WDS your signal gets halved with each extra hop it has to make.


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## wbarnes5

I'm using a Linksys router, with 2 motorola G bridges. Each bridge is able to connect to the network fine, and my pc can see the files on each of the 2 Tivo's. Also, when I bring up "What's Playing" the other Tivo is listed. i.e the Tivo named bedroom lists the livingroom tivo and vise versa. I just can't bring up a list to transfer from one to the other. When I attempt to do this I get a long error message that essentially says that it can't find a connection to the other Tivo.

I can transfer from either Tivo to my pc though. I just had a thought. I have not checked the IP addresses of each Tivo since the change. I may have a conflict there. I'll let y'all know what I find.

Another question. As I understand, what I've been reading in this and other forum's the latest software upgrade configured the USB port on the Tivo to recognize USB 2.0. I tried a 2.0 USB to Ethernet adapter and could not get a link to the network. I had to go back to the USB 1.1 adapters I was using.

I just thought I'd complicate the issue further.

as always, you guys are super helpful. I really do appreciate it.


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## ashu

Irishman - just as troubleshooting - to see whether, for some reason, there is a race condition (would sometimes lead to 8-12 second pings while I experimented with settings!) between two possible available paths.

Of course, in wbarnes' case, extra the hops via the mothership (Linksys router) are hapening anyway. Hmm - is your HMO set up perfectly? (log into tivo.com/manage and turn it off, connect units, turn it on, force another connection). For testing purposes - any chance you can move the TiVo's to BOTH be wired together (via the router or another switch located where one of the TiVos already is)?

Is your router blocking any MAC addresses (is MAC filtering enabled?). If so, temp. disable it. And if things work, when you do re-enable it - try enabling/permitting MAC ids of both mot. bridges, and all devices connected to them (just the TiVos' wired adapters, or other devices too - if you're using a switch conencted to one of the bridges)


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## wbarnes5

I tried turning off the HOM connecting units and turning HOM back on. (really stupid question, what doe HOM stand for?) What I did was turn off the transfer feature, forced a connection on both bridges, then turned it back on and forced another connection with each bridge. There was no change. Checked IP addresses, they are fine, both bridges are picking up the Tivo MAC addresses. 

Neither of the bridges are switch connected. I even took the newest bridge and went through another set up with a Motorola tech on the phone.

Checked the Linksys wireless router and MAC filtering is disabled.

I'm really stumped on this one. I can't understand how I can transfer between both bridges and my PC and the Tivo's but I can't transfer between them.


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## 1283

Not sure what HOM stands for, but HMO stands for Home Media Option.

What if you take the Linksys router out of the picture and just have the two Motorola bridges talk to each other? Maybe the two brands are not compatible for this situation. Usually you want to use the same brand for all wireless bridge devices.


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## ashu

Do your Mot. bridges have separate IP addresses? Hope you aren't PRECISELY replicating te setup on both! How did you configure them - while connected to a PC?

Try - 
- one Bridge to one TiVo
- other bridge to PC (which I assume is now connected wired, directly to router)

See whether thigns still work.


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## wbarnes5

each bridge has it's own unique IP. I configured each bridge via hardwired ethernet from the network.

I am beginning to suspect that there is a problem with the second Mot bridge, as it behaves differently. This may sound silly, but on the 1st Mot bridge the wireless light stays on continuiously, while on the 2nd one the light blinks at a regular rate. I asked the Mot tech guy about this and he said that it was ok. He said the one with the solid light might be blinking so fast I could not detect it. I'm not too sure about that.

I'm going to set up the Tivo's like I had them before the newest bridge, get it transfering, then substitute the new bridge for the old one. If it fails then I know there is a problem with the bridge.

I'll keep you posted. Again thanks for the help and suggestions.


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## ashu

Different firmware revisions could cause that kind of un-identical behavious (blinking/steady light). Of course, testing the bridges is a great idea - include the PC as well, because it's a known (and easier-to-configure) quantity. i.e. connect the bridges cyclically to TiVos/PC and test transfers in all directions (from the POV of the bridges). 

Good luck  (It sure won't be fun, but it will be rewarding!)


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## hitech_rednek

Just received my Belkin F5D7230-4 router. Can't wait to try this out as a bridge. 
Unfortunately I only got one while the rebate was valid. If anyone notices that Circuit City or anyone else has a special deal on these, please post it in this thread.


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## ashu

7.99 at one of the C's (inclined to think CrapUSA, not Ciruit Crappy) this week. Eleven gazillion rebates to fill out (and have rejected!) though 

<edit> Apparently not - se below.

(I'm embarrassed about my post count in this thread and will henceforth
a. Consolidate respnses
b. Request folks to use 'Search'

)

<edit 2> Apparently, I will also continue not to care to correct my atrociously careless spelling.


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## 1283

ashu said:


> 7.99 at one of the C's


Not c3.  That was only 1-day Memorial Day sale, not the whole week.


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## hitech_rednek

hitech_rednek said:


> Just received my Belkin F5D7230-4 router. Can't wait to try this out as a bridge.
> Unfortunately I only got one while the rebate was valid. If anyone notices that Circuit City or anyone else has a special deal on these, please post it in this thread.


I was just reading back farther in this thread to see where (I thought I saw) someone (ashu?) detailed the settings for the Belkin to make it a bridge....didn't find it yet, but I have a question - I did see a post that said the WDS feature only worked on Belkin-to-Belkin, is that true? So if I try to get this to act as a bridge connecting to any other brand of AP/router it probably won't work? I'll probably try it anyway but just wondered if I was wasting my time until I get another Belkin.


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## 1283

As far as I know, there is no industry standard for WDS, so different brands may or may not work together. Best Buy has the Belkin router for $10AR this week.


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## ashu

Linksys WRT54G/WRt54GS, Belkin 7230-04, 7231-04, some Motorolas, Apple (whatchamacallits) all use the same chipset/circuitry (but different PROM sizes and firmware types) and have been reported to occasionally bridge together with varying reliability. See the Sveasoft forums (third party firmware). I haven't bothered trying any of this myself, but reports look semi-optimistic.


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## eibgrad

Bare with me if some of the following info is repetitive or well-known, I simply don't have the patience to review ALL of this lengthy thread. But I did want to pass on some information obtained from a reconfiguration of my Belkin network from last night.

To review my original config, I have a D-Link DI-624 router (wireless disabled), which in turn has a Belkin F5D7230-4 router (in AP mode) attached via a LAN port. I have two Humax DRT800 Tivo's, each w/ their own Belkin F5D7230-4 routers, also in AP mode, wirelessly bridged (w/ WDS) to the the AP on the DI-624. All has worked well enough, but for reasons I won't detail here, I wanted to reconfigure some things last night, and ran into problems.

First, beware all my Belkin routers were of the older "red box" type, v1444, w/ firmware 4.03.03. As I've mentioned in previous posts, this firmware seems to have a number of bugs, the most prominent being the inability to save changes on certain pages. Well last night the situation proved worse than ever. It got to the point where almost NOTHING I changed would take! I finally got so disgusted, I did a hard reset. But then ANY attempt to place the router in AP mode simply resorted back to router mode. I then decided to disable NAT and DHCP manually, which would indirectly convert into AP mode, which did work. But then any attempt to change the SSID, mode, etc., wouldn't take either. Weird. At this point, I was stumped as to how I EVER got these routers working w/ WDS previously. Despite all my attempts, I could not get everything back to even the prior working configuration. I must have worked on this thing for 2 hrs, got essentially nowhere.

Since the initial configuration, I've aquired three more Belkin routers (free), as follows:

2 x Belkin F5D7230-4 (Circuity City, white box, small foorprint, v2000, firmware 4.05.03)
1 x Belkin F5D7230-4 (Home Depot, vacuum formed packaging, small footprint, v1000, firmware 4.03.03)

I decided to break out the routers from Circuit City, and use them instead. I noted each had the later 4.05.03 firmware, WHICH WORKED PERFECTLY! No issues with configuration pages not taking. Then I broke out the router from Home Depot (thinking since this was a smaller footprint, it would probably be v4.05.03 as well, but proved to be 4.03.03, just as w/ my older "red box" F5D7230-4's), and it *did* have all the same updating issues.

Since I needed at least one more working router to complete the reconfig, I decided to risk a firmware update to the router w/ 4.03.03 (Home Depot purchase). The Belkin support pages list this as "Europe/UK" update, so I was somewhat leery. Fortunately, it went smoothly. And sure enough, it fixed all the update problems. Not quite sure what makes this firmware "Europe/UK" specific, but a quick examination didn't provide any obvious differences. But since I was only using the router for AP mode, I assumed this wouldn't be a problem.

So clearly, a *big* issue w/ these Belkin routers is the 4.03.03 firmware, it's just plain buggy and unreliable. Would updating the older "red box" F5D7230-4 routers w/ this same 4.05.03 firmware have worked as well?? Beats me, but if you're having problems w/ these older boxes, you might want to consider it. As always, any firmware update is inherently risky and can render your router USELESS and nothing more than a permanent paperweight if it fails. But as in my case, sometimes the situation is so bad, you're willing to risk it. That's the mood I was in last night, I was prepared to throw the router in the trash can if the firmware update failed.

So the *best* routers to use for this wireless bridging configuration, based on my experiences, is the "white box" models w/ v2000 or better, since this is likely to come equipped w/ 4.05.03 firmware. It's up to YOU to decide, should you have similar problems to myself, if you want to risk the firmware upgrade to 4.05.03. Why there isn't a North American 4.05.03 firmware upgrade for this router (not one just labeled for Eurpose/UK use) available from the Belkin website escapes me. I suppose another alternative is the 5.00.02 firmware for the F5D7230-4 v3000, but this seems even more risky. Consider this at your own risk.

eibgrad


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## ashu

I have two WhiteBox (v. 2000, Firmware 4.05.03) and one Red Box (v. 1444, Firmware 4.03.03) fucntioning togetehr very reliably now. For ages. Of course, initial setup sometimes exhibited the bug (couldn't save changed settings) that you refer to!

The Red one is actually downstairs hooked to my 'main' D-Link router, only because it is larger and has a stable stand to be placed vertically in a smaller space. The two smaller form factor ones are upstairs, sitting upside down, with their antennae pointing downwards (no other way to turn the antenna to point down!)

I have completely avoided changin ANY settings on any of them, once they started working fine. Which is why the (WAY more stable, robust) ancient D-Link serves as my Firewall/DHCP?Router server! Belkin made a great feature-set available at mass-production values, but dropped the ball on their firmware. On of these weekends ... Sveasoft


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## branley

Thanks to all for the information on using the Belkin routers as bridges. I have them working, and we've been enjoying watching any shows from other tivo for two weeks now. It provides so much more flexibility for us.

I do have one problem now that I have this new setup, and I'm hoping someone on here has some idea of what I can try next.

Ever since I went to this belkin bridge option, I can no longer get my tivo to access any HME apps. I have 2 tivos and 2 pcs on the network. Both pcs can see the tivos and each other, and the tivos can see each other. Right now I have the HME samples running from my laptop, and the simulator sees them fine, and I have galleon running from my desktop and the simulator see its just fine, but the tivo just won't list any of the apps.

I have rebooted with both galleon and the HME sample server runnning and no luck. I've never had a problem before. It seems too coincidental for it to not be related to my new home network setup (with the belkins).

Any suggestions as to what to try now?

Brian


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## wbarnes5

wbarnes5 said:


> each bridge has it's own unique IP. I configured each bridge via hardwired ethernet from the network.
> 
> I am beginning to suspect that there is a problem with the second Mot bridge, as it behaves differently. This may sound silly, but on the 1st Mot bridge the wireless light stays on continuiously, while on the 2nd one the light blinks at a regular rate. I asked the Mot tech guy about this and he said that it was ok. He said the one with the solid light might be blinking so fast I could not detect it. I'm not too sure about that.
> 
> I'm going to set up the Tivo's like I had them before the newest bridge, get it transfering, then substitute the new bridge for the old one. If it fails then I know there is a problem with the bridge.
> 
> I'll keep you posted. Again thanks for the help and suggestions.


Well I decided not to fool with my little problem for a few days. The problem of not being able to transfer files from one Tivo to the other. (using g bridges rather than USB wireless) Now, without changing anything, I can see the saved programing on each Tivo, and can transfer to some degree. By that I mean, I was able to transfer programing from one Tivo (livingroom) to another (bedroom), but I can't transfer the other way.

Like I said, I have not changed anything on the set-up since this weekend when it the system could be seen by my PC and transfer from each Tivo to the PC, but neither Tivo could see the other. This gets stranger by the minute.

I think my next attempt to fix the problem will involve doing nothing for a couple of weeks. By then everything should be working fine, given the history of this little drama!!!


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## eibgrad

Discovered another "nice to know" piece of information today for the Belkin WDS configuration.

Just today, I added a third Belkin router (in AP mode) for a third Tivo and configured it like all my other routers/APs. But this time, I ran into terrible connectivity problems. As soon as I added the new router/AP, connectivity on the other routers/APs became unreliable, pings would work sometimes, then suddenly stop, then not at all. Sometimes I'd get half way to the login page of one of the problem routers, and it would just stop, midway through display.

I suspected that perhaps there was some sort of "race" condition or network congestion. So I decided to ENABLE protected mode, whalla, all the problems went away. I originally had protected mode DISABLED (w/ 54G-Only mode) to maximize performance. My thinking was that since I didn't have 802.11b traffic, I would eliminate this overhead (which just checks the airway for clearance before transmitting). But apparently it helps ANY traffic, including 802.11g. Because once I enabled protected mode, all the goofy behavior ceased. In fact, all I had to do was enable protected mode on the router/AP attached to my D-Link DI-624 (the "master" AP, for lack of a better term), and the problems ceased. I enabled protected mode on the rest of the routers/APs too, just to be safe. Whether that is truly necessary, and perhaps deminishes performance, remains to be seen.

So a heads up, if you're using quite a few of these belkin routers w/WDS, beware of this condition and realize you may need to enable protected mode as network traffic increases. I suspect this connectivity problem *may* also manifest itself w/ fewer routers/APs when managing LARGE amounts of data, such as HME transfers, Galleon apps, whatever. I have no proof, just a healthy suspicion.

eibgrad


----------



## ashu

Interesting. That was one of the changes I made when i had whats eemed to be race conditions between my two upstairs (slave) Belkins and the main downstairts unit. The other was to force one of the upper fellas to route through the second upper one (a two hop to the downstairs for the single TiVo on that Belkin - by setting approved Wireless MACs to WDS Bridge with). Perhaps this isn't necessary after all  Gotta try it ... this weekend.


----------



## hitech_rednek

c3 said:


> As far as I know, there is no industry standard for WDS, so different brands may or may not work together. Best Buy has the Belkin router for $10AR this week.


Thanks c3 - my 2nd Belkin is on the way now.


----------



## xtc1

Here`s my problem 
I need to do this: LAN-WRT 54g (AP)- WRT 54g (client)- Video recording device . (Unimo 204)
Tricky part is how to make recording device accessible in lan? I need that device will be visiable in LAN and that decive could see LAN too.
Would enyone to be so kind to explain me how to do it? I hope that explanation will be very simple to understand. (Step by step) Starting with LAN router IP(192.168.1.1) and will finish to the device IP Or if i must WDS then i need example too


----------



## branley

Sorry to cross post, but I am really stuck here. I posted this in the other thread about HME apps not working, but its definitely a result of the router bridging, so that's why I'm coming back to this thread as well.

"Ok, here is an update and it gets stranger by the minute.

To recap, my modem connects to Router A, and my living room tivo is wired to that router, along with my Core server.

In my bedroom, that tivo is wired to another Router, and the two routers are wirelessly bridged.

So, I ran a test this evening. I connected my laptop, running the HME samples, via ethernet to that router, which serves only as an access point. After a tivo reboot, HME apps worked from the laptop showed up on the Tivo. I then disconnected the ethernet to my laptop, and connected to the router via wifi. After a tivo reboot, the HME apps NO LONGER worked. I tried back again one more time with the ethernet and they worked.

Then I took my laptop out to the living room router, and connected it via ethernet, however, after a reboot, the living room tivo did NOT see the hme apps.

Any one have any clue what I should try now?"


----------



## eibgrad

branley said:


> Sorry to cross post, but I am really stuck here. I posted this in the other thread about HME apps not working, but its definitely a result of the router bridging, so that's why I'm coming back to this thread as well.
> 
> "Ok, here is an update and it gets stranger by the minute.
> 
> To recap, my modem connects to Router A, and my living room tivo is wired to that router, along with my Core server.
> 
> In my bedroom, that tivo is wired to another Router, and the two routers are wirelessly bridged.
> 
> So, I ran a test this evening. I connected my laptop, running the HME samples, via ethernet to that router, which serves only as an access point. After a tivo reboot, HME apps worked from the laptop showed up on the Tivo. I then disconnected the ethernet to my laptop, and connected to the router via wifi. After a tivo reboot, the HME apps NO LONGER worked. I tried back again one more time with the ethernet and they worked.
> 
> Then I took my laptop out to the living room router, and connected it via ethernet, however, after a reboot, the living room tivo did NOT see the hme apps.
> 
> Any one have any clue what I should try now?"


HME problems aside, does everything else work over wireless? Can you connect to Tivo, update the guide, etc., all while using wireless?

Could you provide some info on your wireless config, such as are you broadcasting the SSID? Using protected mode? 54-G only mode? Security enabled or disabled? etc.

Have you tried changing various wireless options to see if some parameter is the culprit? For example, when having ANY problems over wireless, I always disable security, it only adds to the confusion. I also specify parameters that make the config as simple and easy to connect as possible. So using my Belkin, for example, I'd specify SSID broadcasts enabled (simple name too, no spaces, no special chars, etc.), protected mode ON, 54-G Auto, NO frame bursting, no MAC filters, no IP filters, etc. Simple, simple, simple.

eibgrad


----------



## branley

eibgrad said:


> HME problems aside, does everything else work over wireless? Can you connect to Tivo, update the guide, etc., all while using wireless?
> 
> Could you provide some info on your wireless config, such as are you broadcasting the SSID? Using protected mode? 54-G only mode? Security enabled or disabled?


I've been having this problem for several weeks now, since I put the belkins in bridged, and all during that time I've been transferring shows between tivos flawlessy. The guides are updating fine as well and I work from home 8hrs a day using the wifi network as well. No problems at all except the HME not working.

Security is off, SSID is broadcasting, protected mode is on, turbo is off, wireless mode is 54g-auto. I am using MAC address filtering for all devices, and all have been entered in.

Both tivos see each other, my desktop sees my laptop, the simulator sees the HME apps regardless of whether they run on the desktop or laptop.

If I isolate my laptop and either tivo behind my linksys router (the one I used to have before the belkins) then HME works.


----------



## anotherlab

Hi,

I'm just starting with Tivo and did it all in one shot including 802.11g networking. I just bought a 140 hour Tivo and a 40 hour Tivo and used the following networking gear:

Router: Linksys WRT54GS. I don't use the SpeedBooster adapters, but the GS has more memory and a faster processor than the WRT54G. I may install one of the 3rd party firmwares and boost the signal strength, but not right now.

Antenna: Linksys HGA7T. Replacement antennas for the WRT54GS that provide 7dbi gain, informal testing showed between 15% to 20% gain in signal strength. CompUsa has generic 9 dbi antennas, but I haven't heard anyone using them.

Ethernet adapter: Linksys USB200M, it seemed like a standard adapter for Tivo

802.11g Bridge: SMC SMC2870W. Unlike the Linksys gaming bridge, the SMC bridge supports WPA-TKIP. These units were a breeze to configure. I hooked them up to my notebook first and set the SSID and the WPA key. Then I hooked each up to the Tivos and they just worked. 

Using NetStumbler, I can see 6 other access points from my house. I really wanted some security. SSID hiding, MAC filtering, and WEP provide very little protection. I checked one of those war driving sites and an open AP was listed about one street over from my house, that was a little too close for comfort.

Now I just have to figure out which codec I'll need to view the .tivo files that I have copied down to my PC....


----------



## lloydjs

I have a series 1 standalone (Sony SVR2000) with a TurboNet card from 9th Tree. I have been using the TurboNet card for a couple of years to make the daily call and it has been working like a charm. The Tivo is connected to a Lynksys router and the router is connected to a cable modem (broadband). 

Here's the question:
I just purchased a wireless router (Lynksys WRT54G, 802.11g). 
What I would like to do now is replace my old router with the new wireless router and still use the TurboNet card to make the daily call. I think I can replace TurboNet with AirNet, but to save money and to avoid the headaches of installing drivers etc., I would like to keep TurboNet and connect it to a wireless bridge.

Do you know a good inexpensive wireless bridge that will work with TurboNet and my new router???


----------



## anotherlab

lloydjs said:


> Do you know a good inexpensive wireless bridge that will work with TurboNet and my new router???


I have been very happy with the SMC SMC2870W bridge. SMC just retired that model and a new one, the SMCWEBT-G, is supposed to be available this month. You can still get the SMC2870W from Amazon and few other resellers, but I imagine that supply will dry up.

As long as the TurboNet board works like a standard ethernet card, it should work just fine with a bridge. The bridge should be completely transparent to the TurboNet. As far as the TurboNet card is concerned, it will appear to be wired to the router.

Linksys sells a wireless 802.11g bridge that they call their gaming adapter. It's at the same price range (about $80) as the SMC2870W, but it does not support WPA encryption.


----------



## 1283

The popular Belkin router works fine with WPA in the bridge mode. I have two in my setup , one as router, and one as AP/bridge. The glitch is that after the router is rebooted, you have to go to the menu and click "apply" again (just the router, not the AP). $40 or less at many stores.


----------



## djlenoir

Would this equipment work? I like the MIMO technology because of the range.

FA120 - USB 2.0 Ethernet Adapter
WGPS606 - Wireless Bridge (Supports MIMO)
WPN824 - Wireless Router (MIMO)

Not sure if the FA120 is supported (drivers) but if it is not, I will just go with the USB200M which should not be a problem. The above allows me to stick with all one brand, which is usually a good thing in the wireless world.


----------



## 1283

FA120 works fine (I have three of them), but that's not part of the wireless equation.


----------



## Kinko

Hello,

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say this or not, but here it goes =P

If you can get a WRT54G or WRT54GS (standard linksys G router) , you can turn it into a bridge or use WDS.

1) Buy one. 
$50 @ circuitcity w/ rebate stuff
$60 @ the market of the wall

1a) Buy a usb network adapter.

2) Download custom firmware from sveasoft *can't post url , I don't have 5 posts* (free or 20dollar/year for their tailsman version, free one will do)

3) Install firmware

4) Do these settings:

Settings:
1) set internet type to disable
2) set ip and gateway
3) make sure you turn dhcp off if you alread have a dhcp server (other router)
4) go to advanced routing tab, click enable
5) go to wireless tab
6) put in a SSID (doesn't have to be the same as anything else)
7) go to security, and setup the same security as the host access point
8) go to wds tab, set manual, first one set lan, then enter mac address of the host ap
9) connect and you're good to go
10) If it doesn't work, go to security and disable the firewall and try again

Note: this may be incorrect, and I have only done it wrt54g to wrt54g


I haven't had much luck with the "bridge" mode (but WDS does the same thing), however, if you have multiple TiVos, you can use the WDS feature to save bandwidth.
eg:
Tivo 1 is wired to the WDS
tivo 2 is 802.11g to the WDS instead of the main router
Tivo -> tivo communication doesn't effect other wifi device -> home router

Kinko


----------



## greg_burns

Kinko said:


> If you can get a WRT54G or WRT54GS (standard linksys G router) , you can turn it into a bridge or use WDS.


I'll second that. :up: I've done it using Alchemy between WRT54G and WRT54GS. Linksys routers aren't always cheap and it can be a little scary avoiding making a brick, but it does work!

http://www.wrt54g.com/pages.php?p=firmware


----------



## ashu

You're perfectly welcome to say that (what gave you the impression you aren't) 

Heck - the thread started out with a Linksys discussion - Bridge devices and those specific routers you mentioned, but was soon hijacked by the Belkin users - same hardware, less memory, so less extensive feature set in firmware as the Linksys!

BUT - shockingly cheaper - I spend $35 total on my 3 Belkins. And some people got theirs even cheaper.

AND I can use a variation of the same SveaSoft firmware (toned down) on it, if I choose (less memory and all that ...)


----------



## Kinko

Well, you never know.. =P

I've got 3 wrt54g atm, all redundantly connected with WDS. (1 for my gateway/NAT, 2 for my two tivos with usb200m linksys adapters).. i even have a 14dbi yagi antenna incase I ever need a long haul..

the Belkin looks like a good deal btw


----------



## emwoods

ashu said:


> You're perfectly welcome to say that (what gave you the impression you aren't)
> 
> Heck - the thread started out with a Linksys discussion - Bridge devices and those specific routers you mentioned, but was soon hijacked by the Belkin users - same hardware, less memory, so less extensive feature set in firmware as the Linksys!
> 
> BUT - shockingly cheaper - I spend $35 total on my 3 Belkins. And some people got theirs even cheaper.
> 
> AND I can use a variation of the same SveaSoft firmware (toned down) on it, if I choose (less memory and all that ...)


Ashu, just making sure I understood your last post. If I remember correctly, your primary router is not a Belkin. Do you have a version of the SvesSoft firmware for your Belkins? I know a version was being worked on, but I did not think it was available yet.

Thanks,

E.


----------



## ashu

Primary - D-Link

Upgraded Belkin Firmware - not on mine. It does exist. A variant fo the sveasoft, by the same folks. Still in Alpha with a big YMMV, IIRC.The hardware is identical to the Linksys WRT... except for the smaller memory.


----------



## Andrewp75

I have the wireless setup as follows:

80 Hour unmodded 540 connected to a USB 200M and a WGA54G Game adapter being used as a wireless bridge

492 Hour Modified Toshiba RS-TX20 connected to a USB 200M and a WGA54G Game adapter being used as a wireless bridge

80 Hour unmodded 540 connected to a USB 200M and a WGA54G Game adapter being used as a wireless bridge

My router is a SRX MIMO Linksys WRTG54X with three SMA high gain 7dBi antennae.

Nothing is further than 30 feet away from each other.

I honestly dont see how I can get any better in the wireless setup, yet I can barely get a meduim transfer in realtime.

Does anyone know of any router settings that I might be able to configure to get things a little faster?

I have 64 bit wep and SSIDs broadcasting to all the adapters.

Thanks!

A


----------



## 1283

Andrewp75 said:


> I can barely get a meduim transfer in realtime.


TiVo-TiVo transfer or TiVo-PC transfer?


----------



## Andrewp75

Tivo to Tivo, Tivo to PC is even worse...

Please help...

A


----------



## 1283

I would suggest hardwiring two TiVos through a switch and see what you get.


----------



## Andrewp75

Could you please further detail this process. I do not have a wired network availiable to me.

Thanks!

A

BTW, would any port forwarding or that type of thing help out the speed of MRV transfers?


----------



## ashu

Yeah - it could be your specific adapter/s.

Also, I trust you've cycled through a bunch of wireless channels already? Phones, microwaves and neighbors' networks are the major sources of interference in the 2.4GHz range.

Also - test with WEP disabled. it is possible that a particular router firmware implementation chokes on WEP, or is more optimized with 128 or 256 bit (if supported) WEP.


----------



## ashu

Andrewp75 said:


> Could you please further detail this process. I do not have a wired network availiable to me.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> A
> 
> BTW, would any port forwarding or that type of thing help out the speed of MRV transfers?


Wire two TiVos (preferably the only two that support USB 2.0 now - as the RS-TX20 is still running the old software with USB 1.1) to the same router. If it's physically not possible, then move one TiVo to the location of another, with a TV with two inputs. Be sure to read your manual for remote control code configuration, so your commands go to one tivo at a time.

Port forwarding won't help.

Can you post PC/PC transfer (non TiVo related) transfer speed benchmarks? MIMO should be mind-bogglingly fast in theory, unless your network is otherwise broken, being interfered with - or perhaps the hardware (being Alpha, as things stand) is just not stable at all?

<edit> I also just noticed your other two units are 540 - they DO have some kind of compromised USB implementation, and won't curently transfer at the same speeds as 240-series 2 units. But you should still see same-as-wired-pair-of-540s speeds, considering how fast MIMO supposedly is. Hence the PC-to-PC benchmark suggestion.


----------



## ashu

The fact that the firmware on these and Linksys' routers is upgradeable set me thiking.

I've long wondered whether it might be possible to modify the firmware on a wireless bridge to directly do some of the java stuff that galleon does. Or perhaps some decoding/transfer related stuff to specifically speed TiVo MRV/TTG up a bit? Or specific adapters of this sort that could help with speeds? Would there be any advantage to this? Or is this idea completely out of left field?


----------



## bossku69

Thats pretty cool, nice set up. but really, what could you be recording with all that space? just kind of curious


----------



## ashu

bossku69 said:


> Thats pretty cool, nice set up. but really, what could you be recording with all that space? just kind of curious


Huh? Who? What? Where? Whom? (sorry, not sure who your question is directed at.)


----------



## Andrewp75

bossku69 said:


> Thats pretty cool, nice set up. but really, what could you be recording with all that space? just kind of curious


If you were ferrring to me, it cause I want to record everything at High or Best quality in order to burn good looking DVD's.

A


----------



## anotherlab

Andrewp75 said:


> Nothing is further than 30 feet away from each other


30 feet could mean a clear signal or it could mean almost none. How many walls separate your wireless devices? Going through walls and floors will scatter your wireless signal.

Do you have any appliances between any of the wireless bridges and/or router? I went crazy trying to resolve periodic signal losses with a Linksys USB adapter on my PC. My washer and dryer are between that PC (and a Tivo) and the router. When the dryer was running, the motor created enough signal interference that the USB adapter could not stay locked on my router. The Tivo with it's SMC bridge did not that problem.

Can you log directly into the WGA54G adapters and check their statuses? I opted for the SMC bridges over Linksys (SMC supports WPA-PSK) and it's easy to check their signal strength by logging directly into the bridges.


----------



## Moebius

anotherlab said:


> 30 feet could mean a clear signal or it could mean almost none. How many walls separate your wireless devices? Going through walls and floors will scatter your wireless signal.
> 
> Do you have any appliances between any of the wireless bridges and/or router? I went crazy trying to resolve periodic signal losses with a Linksys USB adapter on my PC. My washer and dryer are between that PC (and a Tivo) and the router. When the dryer was running, the motor created enough signal interference that the USB adapter could not stay locked on my router. The Tivo with it's SMC bridge did not that problem.
> 
> Can you log directly into the WGA54G adapters and check their statuses? I opted for the SMC bridges over Linksys (SMC supports WPA-PSK) and it's easy to check their signal strength by logging directly into the bridges.


Appliances and cordless phones can definately cause problems with transfers, even when you're dealing with a short distance like 30 feet. We had a similar problem setting up our office at work for wireless. Most conference rooms were fine, but one, which was actually closest to the AP had trouble due to a small break room with a microwave. Small traffic stuff like email and surfing were fine, but any large traffic like file transfers or whiteboard applications would crap out. We eventually had to add another AP on the other side of the room.


----------



## Andrewp75

Has anyone else notcied that the linksys wireless game adapters have slowed to a crawl since 7.2?

Thanks!

A


----------



## 1283

TiVo shouldn't know anything about the wireless game adapter. It thinks it's attached to a wired network.


----------



## Andrewp75

Well something somewhere has cut the speed of my transfers in half since 7.2.....


----------



## anotherlab

How are you measuring the change in speed? Is it TiVo to TiVo transfers, TiVo updating it's own data, or TiVo to PC speed? I haven't noticed any real speed differences since going to 7.2.


----------



## Andrewp75

It would be Tivo to Tivo and Tivo to PC. Both are about half of what they were...

A


----------



## bmb

Looks like a lot of you have had luck with the WGA54G. I can't seem to get MRV working through my WGA54G and would love to know what I'm doing wrong. I have the latest Linksys firmware on both the gaming adapter and my wireless router. I posted the below in the Help Center forum but haven't received a response there (I would post the URL, but the system won't let me post a URL since I have less than 5 posts)....

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks,
B


Hi,

I am new to the forums, but from reading various threads (including the "ultimate wireless network" thread) I thought I would be able to hook up one of my Tivos with a Linksys WGA54G gaming adapter, but I can't seem to get Multiple Room Viewing to work.

Both Tivos are Series 2. Tivo 'A' has a service number of 130, has the Linksys USB100M ethernet adapter hard wired directly to a Linksys WRT54GX wireless g router. 

Tivo 'B' has a service number of 540, has a Linksys USB200M (version 1) ethernet adapter hard wired to a Linksys WGA54G Gaming Adapter which then communicates wirelessly to the WRT54GX router mentioned above. 

Both Tivos have 7.2 software.

The problem: Tivo 'B' can connect to the Tivo service and download updates just fine with the above setup, can connect to the Best Buy music, can see Tivo 'A' and all the shows, but can NOT transfer any shows from Tivo A. It just states a message saying something like it could not transfer the show from Tivo 'A' because it is no longer available.

Tivo 'A' on the other hand cannot even see Tivo 'B.'

If I take the gaming adapter out of the picture and run Tivo B directly to the router hard wired, MRV works just fine and both Tivos see each other as well.

So what's going on here? I thought people were having great success using the above setup (with WGA54G)? Is this something that broke with the new 7.2 software (I just purchased the above Linksys setup, so not sure if it would have worked with the 7.1)?

Thanks,
BMB


----------



## Andrewp75

Are you running any HME apps such as Gaellon? If so stop them from running for now. Also, try the following:

Unplug the USB cable from Tivo B and the power cable from the WGA54G

then go to network setup and run a test setup or whatever it is called, it should work.

This will esentially reset the game adapter and may solve some issues. Also try to maybe have Tivo A hooked up to another game adpater rather than directly to the router.

Let me know if any of this helps. You may also want to try to reboot each Tivo.

A


----------



## bmb

I don't even know what HME stands for, so I'm not running it (no Gaellon either). I have tried rebooting each Tivo multiple times to no avail. I have also already tried unplugging the ethernet adapter and power cycled the game adapter multiple times. 

Like I said, the basic network connection works fine... I can get data downloads, etc., I just can't use MRV. I'm stumped as to why everything transmits fine through the game adapter except MRV.

Is this kind of stuff supported through Tivo? Can I call them and say "hey, MRV isn't working through a wireless bridge?"

-B


----------



## bmb

Just spoke with Tivo, and as expected, they said they would not support a wireless bridge and directed me to tivocommunity. 

This drives me crazy that all of you have a WGA54G working with MRV, but yet I can't seem to get a similar setup working. I'm left wondering if I just have an incorrect setting on the gaming adapter, found a bug between 130 and 540 units, or something else all together.

-B


----------



## ljwhite

I have a pioneer DVR-810H and have developed an interest in wireless network.

I am electronically challanged so please keep it simple.

What do I need to buy to create a wireless network so I can transfer recorded golf on my TIVO to my PC and burn them on a CD?

TIVO informed me that I have the latest software installed for a wireless network but I don't have the slightest idea what to buy to create one.

Do I have to buy something for my PC and something for my Pioneer? Do I have to buy software to do the burning of the shows to the CD for my PC?

The main reason I am trying to do this is when I tried to burn a one hour golf show on a CD using TIVO in told me it would take 3 disks and I thought that 
was crazy...

I appreciate any help you guys might give me...


----------



## azitnay

If you don't have a wireless broadband router yet, you'll need one of those.

You'll also need a wireless adapter for the TiVo. http://www.tivo.com/adapters/ lists supported adapters, and you'll find recommendations for which to get all over these forums.

You talk about burning CD's, but I assume you mean DVD's... I don't know what DVD burning software you currently have, but Sonic MyDVD 6.1 is the only officially-supported way to burn .TiVo files to DVD. Other programs such as NeroVision have been reported to work, however.

Also, there's no way a show that's actually only an hour long should take up 3 DVD's when burned from your Pioneer. Even at best quality, I believe it can still fit an hour on one DVD.

Drew


----------



## bmb

bmb said:


> This drives me crazy that all of you have a WGA54G working with MRV, but yet I can't seem to get a similar setup working. -B


I found some interesting behavior last night, hoping some network guru might be able to explain it. Posted in another thread...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3250216#post3250216


----------



## Andrewp75

BMB, 

Go to Best Buy or whatever your local store is and buy another WGA54G. Plug Tivo A (the one connected directly to the router) into that instead. It should work. I have a feeling it is a problem with Tivo A being plugge into the router. If it doesnt work, return it for a full refund (within 30 days of course )

A


----------



## bmb

Andrewp75 said:


> BMB,
> Go to Best Buy or whatever your local store is and buy another WGA54G. Plug Tivo A (the one connected directly to the router) into that instead. A


A, thanks for your suggestions. The reason I had Tivo B into a WGA54G in the first place was because I was trying to get better transfer speeds then having a wireless adapter plugged directly into B. Putting a WGA54G on Tivo A simply adds cost and slows things down further since now you have two devices on the wireless waves. I think it is just time to go back to a wireless adapter on B and deal with the 802.11b speeds.

-B


----------



## Andrewp75

There are some G adpaters that work with Tivo, go to there website and check out the list...

A


----------



## bmb

Yeah, but from what I've read on these forums, the wireless g adapters don't perform any better (and in some cases worse) then the b adapters because the linux drivers are "immature." Supposedly the G adapters were just added because they are more widely available in certain stores, not because of speed improvements in the Tivo implementation.


----------



## tivogurl

Is it possible to set up these networks while having WPA/WPA2 enabled? The WDS solutions described appear to preclude WPA, as WDS doesn't support it, and we all know WEP is junk. I'd really like to make my network as secure as possible e.g. WPA2 enabled, SSID broadcasting turned off, etc.


----------



## 1283

I've been running bridged Belkins with WPA.


----------



## ashu

yup. In fact the Belkins' WPA seems a mite more stable than that on the linksys units running WDS. Be warned, however, that new versions (firmware) of the Belkin 7230-4 are NO LONGER capable fo this cool WDS feature ... at least without being flashed (if at all!). Hit up Sveasoft for more info ... I haven't checked into this in weeks.


----------



## 1283

The latest single-antenna Belkin version 4000 has different hardware, so it's not just a firmware change.


----------



## greg_burns

ashu said:


> yup. In fact the Belkins' WPA seems a mite more stable than that on the linksys units running WDS.


I wonder if that is my trouble. I have to reset my cable modem (not router) every couple days. This is my second modem from comcast, but it doesn't behave any better. Not sure how my Linksys WDS setup would mess up my cable modem upstream, but now you got me thinking. Any links to people complaint's about stabilty with Linksys units running WDS?


----------



## emwoods

ashu said:


> yup. In fact the Belkins' WPA seems a mite more stable than that on the linksys units running WDS. Be warned, however, that new versions (firmware) of the Belkin 7230-4 are NO LONGER capable fo this cool WDS feature ... at least without being flashed (if at all!). Hit up Sveasoft for more info ... I haven't checked into this in weeks.


SVEASoft is about to finally release a Talisman version that supports Belkin F5D7230-4 routers. Probably will be released this weeks. I will post a separate thread with details I have been able to glean from the site. $20 for the firmware update. Basically, most of the cool features that the Linksys users using the Talisman firmware have had for some time.


----------



## tivogurl

The thing I find odd is that these routers, in bridge mode, don't act just like a standard wireless NIC as one might find in, oh, most any PC on the planet. If they did, then bridging with WPA2 turned on would Just Work, with _any_ router used as your AP not just a same-brand one. Practically plug and play. Instead they goof things up and come up with a bridge mode that's incompatible with a standard wireless AP. Anybody know why they do that?


----------



## 1283

tivogurl said:


> The thing I find odd is that these routers, in bridge mode, don't act just like a standard wireless NIC as one might find in, oh, most any PC on the planet.


They're *NOT* supposed to be same. A wireless client is one device with one IP address. A bridge is like a virtual cable. You can have multiple devices at both ends of that cable, and all devices are on the same subnet.


----------



## tivogurl

c3 said:


> They're *NOT* supposed to be same. A wireless client is one device with one IP address. A bridge is like a virtual cable. You can have multiple devices at both ends of that cable, and all devices are on the same subnet.


If WPA can't work with multiple devices using the same WPA channel, why don't wireless bridges implicitly designed for one device (game adapters) work just like a NIC? One Tivo wired to one bridge should be indistinguishable from a PC with a wireless card, and should allow the full range of wireless security (WPA2 enabled, SSID broadcast from the AP is off, etc) to be used with any brand of AP. Yet they don't, and I don't understand why such transparency isn't available. There is no obvious technical reason for it.

Why a "same subnet" requirement? A classic bridge is between incompatible technologies, like ethernet and token ring, so they can't by definition be on the same subnet.

From the point of view of the AP, how is a router with NAT turned on distinguishable from one device with one IP address? If for some reason WPA is so stupidly broken that we must limit ourselves in that way, this case should solve that problem.


----------



## 1283

This has nothing to do with WPA. Client and WDS/bridge are two different modes of operation. If a product chooses not to implement WPA with WDS, it's that specific product's problem. I've been using WPA with WDS for many months with Belkin factory firmware -- no hacking required.

(A+B+C) -- bridge -- wireless -- bridge -- (D+E+F)

Logically, all 6 devices A to F are on the same subnet. Each device can talk to any other device. If you use router with NAT, you essentially create a one-way street.

There are routers with client mode which behave like what you're asking. I don't have personal experience with them.


----------



## Stormspace

tivogurl said:


> If WPA can't work with multiple devices using the same WPA channel, why don't wireless bridges implicitly designed for one device (game adapters) work just like a NIC? One Tivo wired to one bridge should be indistinguishable from a PC with a wireless card, and should allow the full range of wireless security (WPA2 enabled, SSID broadcast from the AP is off, etc) to be used with any brand of AP. Yet they don't, and I don't understand why such transparency isn't available. There is no obvious technical reason for it.


There are wireless devices that mimic this type of behavior. Wireless game adapters come to mind here. They sit as a pipe through which to route network traffic for one wired device. Most have to be attached to a PC to be configured if anything other than the defult settings are used. WEP, WPA, SSID, etc.

The ones I am familiar with will also detect the MAC of the wired NIC and replicate that MAC on the wireless network as well. For a TiVo you'd have to first have the usb to cat5 ethernet adapter. Game adapters are expensive however and I've seen wireless bridges that are much cheaper and allow you to hook up your entire AV system, not just one device.


----------



## bdinmd

Andrewp75 said:


> Has anyone else notcied that the linksys wireless game adapters have slowed to a crawl since 7.2?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> A


 I have noticed that since 7.2 my setup (like yours / w linksys game adapters) has had issues. My internal networked tivos still talk to each other but the tivos hang on 'setting clock' when trying to talk to the tivo network. Any thoughts?


----------



## popechild

I've had a tivo network up and running for a while using the Belkin 7231-4's. I've got one hardlined to my desktop, which is also connected to my cable modem and being used as my router.

Then I've got two more 7231-4's... one at each Tivo in the house. They're setup as wireless bridges, as described in this thread among other places. I've also got a laptop with wireless card that "roams" from AP to AP as I move throughout the house in order to keep a strong connection.

Anyway, I've been using it without any encryption because I'm having trouble figuring out how to "turn the encryption on" and thought you guys could help. I can go into the router settings (at 192.168.2.1 for me) using my desktop or laptop and setup encryption for the router there. Then I can change the settings on my laptop to use the same network key and get internet service through the laptop - but I think it's only because it's finding and using the actual router, not going through the other APs.

Neither of the tivos can connect, and if I hardline the laptop to one of those two APs/bridges and take out the wireless card, I can't get a connection through the laptop as well. I assume this is because the 2 "bridges" are not configured to use the encryption key, but I can't figure out for the life of me how to get into the configuration menus of those bridges to set them up to use the encryption key. The only menu I can seem to get to is the one at 192.168.2.1 (that's set up as a router). I *think* when I set it all up I used 192.168.2.2 and 2.3 for the network addresses of the two bridges, but I don't really know enough about all this to know how to get to those to update their configurations now that they've been setup as bridges.

Can anybody help me figure out how I can enable the encryption across my network as it's setup now?

Thanks!


----------



## Stormspace

You have to set up the wireless encyption on all your devices(bridges and routers). I'd suggest working backwards from the bridges then doing the router last.


----------



## 1283

popechild said:


> I've also got a laptop with wireless card that "roams" from AP to AP as I move throughout the house in order to keep a strong connection.


I don't remember if I have tried it without encryption, but I have found that wireless roaming does NOT work well with my setup (WDS with WPA). It does not fail 100% of the time, but it usually does not work, so I just disable wireless clients on the AP.


----------



## Gunnyman

Well after fighting with Motorola Wireless G Bridges (ugg) for a week I FINALLY have a UWN of my own.
Here's my current setup at each TiVo:
1) Netgear FA120 30 bucks but available cheaper mailorder
2) Belkin Wireless G Router F5D7230-4 in BRIDGE MODE 30 bucks at Circuit City

The Belkin routers are bridged to a Belkin 7130 WAP which is hardwired into a Linksys WRT54G.

Thanks to Ashu and others who haved helped me figure this all out.


----------



## popechild

Stormspace said:


> You have to set up the wireless encyption on all your devices(bridges and routers). I'd suggest working backwards from the bridges then doing the router last.


That's where I'm having the problem. I can't figure out how to get into the configuration settings on the bridges (even without encryption setup on the router). Can you give me advice on how to do this?

FWIW c3, I have never had a problem using the roaming laptop and having the bridges act as APs, but then again, I've never tried it yet with encryption set up.


----------



## llungster

I've read most of this thread over the last few weeks and wanted to share what I did to get my Series 2 TiVo on a G network with WPA encryption.

I went with an SMC bridge unit SMCWEBT-G for $65 with free shipping. This was the cheapest bridge or game adapter I could find at the time that would support WPA. The unit itself is pretty flexible, able to act as a bridge, a WAP or a wireless repeater. The config looks like this:


TiVo -- linksys USB200M -- SMCWEBT-G -- (802.11g WPA) -- Netgear WGR614 router

To setup the SMC bridge, I hooked up my PC directly to the unit. I changed the PC's IP address to 192.168.2.20 (an address on the bridge's default subnet). The bridge has a web interface at 192.168.2.25. I enter this interface via my web browser and select my mode of operation (ethernet client), my security settings (WPA and key), change the admin password, change the unit's default IP address to match the subnet of my Netgear router, scan for SSIDs and select mine for use. The Netgear router is at 192.168.1.x so I move the SMC to 192.168.1.25 (from 192.168.2.25). Back on the PC, I ditch the static IP address and re-enable DHCP, and that's it. The PC now talks to my network through the bridge. I disconnect the bridge, put the PC back on its regular wired network. The bridge and linksys USB200M replace my old Linksys WUSB11 (11b, WEP). And that's pretty much it.

Transfer time is about real-time for " best quality" video content meaning a 30 minute program will transfer in about 30 minutes. The target PC is on wired ethernet.

Overall, I'm very happy with the results. The cost was very reasonable. The setup was easy. Lots of thanks for many on this thread for making this possible.


----------



## Stormspace

popechild said:


> That's where I'm having the problem. I can't figure out how to get into the configuration settings on the bridges (even without encryption setup on the router). Can you give me advice on how to do this?
> 
> FWIW c3, I have never had a problem using the roaming laptop and having the bridges act as APs, but then again, I've never tried it yet with encryption set up.


Each bridge on your network should have a web interface. The first step is putting the bridge on the same subnet as your router. If your router is 192.168.1.1 then setting your bridge to 192.168.1.xxx where xxx is the next number after the last number your dhcp server will assign. In my case the last IP assigned on the router is 192.168.1.199 so my static devices start at 192.168.1.200.

You may have to connect directly to the bridge to change this. Once it's on the same subnet (the third octet, ie 192.168.xxx.1) you can connect it to your router and web into it to finish the configuration, WPA, etc. In my experience you have to do this from the last device in the line because once WPA, WEP, or other security is set up you will not be able to connect to that device until the next closer device is configured, which is why I said to work back from your bridge.

The absolute expert on wireless though is Ashu. You can PM him or post to him in this thread.


----------



## llungster

popechild said:


> That's where I'm having the problem. I can't figure out how to get into the configuration settings on the bridges (even without encryption setup on the router). Can you give me advice on how to do this?
> 
> FWIW c3, I have never had a problem using the roaming laptop and having the bridges act as APs, but then again, I've never tried it yet with encryption set up.


Back when you did your initial setup of the Belkins, you probably had to set up the two units with their respective IP addresses - each one has an address that opens up their web interface via a browser. If you don't recall what those addresses are, you may have to go back to this thread, find the article that provided the example of how to set it up and see if the addresses given are what you used. Once you have those addresses handy, you type them into your web browser and hopefully, it'll open up the respective Belkins. Chances are, you'll also need the admin password for the router.

Another possibility is to dig up the user's manual for the Belkin and try the default IP address for each unit. If for some reason, you didn't have to change it when you first did the installation, then this might open one of the units.

You may have to hardwire your PC to the router to do the config work (?).

If all else fails, all routers have a way to be reset to the factory default via some reset switch. Usually it involves holding the button in for a certain amount of time. When you do this, you lose all configurations but this lets you hook up your PC to the router and enter the default IP address of the unit (from the user's manual) and re-program it from scratch. Useful when all else fails.

good luck


----------



## DaddyBC

eibgrad said:


> I started the ball rolling on the use of Belkin routers some months ago. I noticed at the time that the Belkin F5D7230-4 and F5F7231-4 routers support WDS (Wireless Distribution System), ............eibgrad


It appears the newer F5D7230-4 Ver 4001 do not support Bridging.  
Since they are faily cheap does anyone know of a way to use these the way you suggest?


----------



## 1283

Many stores still have the older versions 200x and 300x. I prefer 200x with its switching power supply. 300x has analog AC adaptor.


----------



## eibgrad

DaddyBC said:


> It appears the newer F5D7230-4 Ver 4001 do not support Bridging.
> Since they are faily cheap does anyone know of a way to use these the way you suggest?


News to me, I have many of these and one F5D7231-4 as well, all support WDS. But if Ashu and others are claiming more recent units don't support WDS, I'll take their word for it.

Btw, I noticed several ppl claiming support for WPA over WDS. I'd love to get this working myself, but have never been able to do so. Only WEP works for me. I'm running firmware 4.05.03 on ALL my F5D7231-4 and F5D7230-4 APs, tried changing various settings (like re-enabling SSID, turning frame bursting off, protected mode ON, etc.), nothing seems to work. I just can't get these APs to communicate in WPA mode. Wish I could figure out the secret.

eibgrad


----------



## 1283

FWIW, these are my settings: 54G-only, SSID off, protected off, frame bursting mode, WPA-PSK, AES. One setup has one 7231-4 v.1102 and one 7230-4 v.2000. That one has been up since 9/13, based on the system log. Another setup has two 7230-4 v.200x. All of them have firmware 4.05.03.


----------



## eibgrad

c3 said:


> FWIW, these are my settings: 54G-only, SSID off, protected off, frame bursting mode, WPA-PSK, AES. One setup has one 7231-4 v.1102 and one 7230-4 v.2000. That one has been up since 9/13, based on the system log. Another setup has two 7230-4 v.200x. All of them have firmware 4.05.03.


Hmm, that's darn close to my config, not sure which hardware versions I have, I'll have to look into that. That aside, the only difference is I tried using TKIP, the default. I suppose I could try using AES. Anyone else using TKIP successfully w/ WDS enabled?


----------



## MickeS

llungster, thanks for your concise and informative step-by-step description of your setup and your gear. I think I might try and go and duplicate it...

I'm currently getting about real-time for medium quality recordings, which have been fine because I have only used it for TTG. But now with the ability to transfer shows BACK to the Tivo for viewing, this has proven inadequate...

/Mike


----------



## eibgrad

eibgrad said:


> Hmm, that's darn close to my config, not sure which hardware versions I have, I'll have to look into that. That aside, the only difference is I tried using TKIP, the default. I suppose I could try using AES. Anyone else using TKIP successfully w/ WDS enabled?


Oh well, I just can't get this to work (WPA over WDS). I tried TKIP and AES, tried complex keys and simple keys, rebooting both APs, etc., never works. Just don't know what the problem is. Maybe sometime in the future someone will identify why it works for some people and not others.

Btw, for the record, I have one 7231-4 v.1102 and one 7230-4 v.2000 as well (both in AP mode), the same as c3's setup. The only possible difference I can see at this point between me and c3 is perhaps one of his units is in router mode.

eibgrad


----------



## 1283

Yes, one as router and one as AP.


----------



## llungster

MickeS said:


> llungster, thanks for your concise and informative step-by-step description of your setup and your gear. I think I might try and go and duplicate it...
> 
> I'm currently getting about real-time for medium quality recordings, which have been fine because I have only used it for TTG. But now with the ability to transfer shows BACK to the Tivo for viewing, this has proven inadequate...
> 
> /Mike


Glad to help Mike. FWIW, the SMC bridge isn't popular like Netgear or Linksys so it's not readily available. I can't post where I got it since the forum won't ket me post URLs until I have more posts under my belt (security feature). But you should be able to search for it with the regular shopping sites. The place I got mine from is currently out of stock; too bad 'cause I was thinking of getting another one for my HTPC.


----------



## vlxjim

Well it's been some time sense I,ve been on this post. I do have some good news I just saved a bunch of money by switching to ****. But I did switch out my wireless game adapters to the Linksys WET54GS5 Bridge. What a big differance much more stable and faster transfer speeds. 1 hour shows transfer is less than 30 mins in best quality.


----------



## bmb

All, you may want to check out this thread to avoid any problems:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3436585#post3436585


----------



## juanian

c3 said:


> Many stores still have the older versions 200x and 300x. I prefer 200x with its switching power supply. 300x has analog AC adaptor.


So in the end, which is better - a v200x (with a switching power supply) or a v300x (with the increased range)?

I just found some of the older Belkins at a local Best Buy. They had one v2002 and two v3001. I bought a v2002 and a v3001. Mistake?

One other question: If I have a Linksys WRT54G router doing NAT, and I hook up the two Belkins in WDS mode, will they interfere with the wireless signal from the Linksys (for use by other wireless devices in the house, like a "roaming laptop")? Should I position the first 'wired' Belkin away from the Linksys, or does it matter? (Although I need to re-read the posts in various threads, I assume I want to choose one channel for the Linksys (like 11) and a different channel for the Belkins (like 1 or 6).)

Thanks


----------



## Rallyman

First off, let me say thanks to everyone that has posted info in this thread...what a gold mine. Special thanks to eibgrad for the layout of his network and to ashu for linking it in his sig 

I have the same equipment that eibgrad described but its not working for me. I believe that the problem is I have ver. 4001 of the Belkin routers. Looking around on the Belkin web site I found this. That menu option is not available on either of my ver. 4001 Belkin routers. So I have to assume that wireless bridging is no longer supported.

Also note on that Belkin page is an option to "upgrade" your router to support wireless bridging. Essentially its firmware ver. 3.00.05. Does anyone think that this will actually work, or will the router spit out the "upgrade"?( I vote it'll spit it out) I've already returned both of my Belkins or I'd at least try on one. I'd be willing to go out and buy another one if there seems to be a consensus that it might work.

Thoughts?

( Sorry if this has already been discussed, I did try to read all posts, but this is a huge thread.)

Rallyman


----------



## 1283

Rallyman said:


> I believe that the problem is I have ver. 4001 of the Belkin routers.


400x does *NOT* support WDS. You need 200x or 300x. The "upgrade" is for much older firmware.


----------



## Resist

Could I just hook up a D-Link DWL-G122 Wireless G USB Adapter to my Series 2 Tivo?


----------



## Resist

Okay I just hooked up my Tivo via a Linksys USB Network adapter and my XBox Microsoft wireless game adapter. To my surprise it works!

What I really want to do is us the D-Link USB wireless adapter instead as then I won't have to have another item plugged in for power.


----------



## Resist

Darn, my D-Link USB wirelesss adapter is version B1 and only A2 works with my Tivo. At least it works with my computer.


----------



## azitnay

Besides that, using a wireless adapter is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about achieving wired-esque speeds via wireless (using wired adapters and wireless bridges).

Drew


----------



## Resist

Sorry


----------



## juanian

azitnay said:


> Besides that, using a wireless adapter is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about achieving wired-esque speeds via wireless (using wired adapters and wireless bridges).
> 
> Drew


I hope that *my* questions are on-topic, since they do relate to using Belkin 7230's in WDS mode (but speed was not the main goal of my requests - just getting the best to do what I needed to do, so . . .).


----------



## PhantomDilbert

Wow I checked out for a 1/2 year and when I come back I noticed all this cool stuff now! Man I have a lot of catching up to do! So I'm trying to figure out which way to network my TiVo.

Currently it is sony svr-3000 ---> wireless usb ---> linksys w54g --->cable modem

I'm thinking of going w/ the bridge option since I'm planning to utilize the tivo for streaming home movies and such. Has anyone had much luck or advice on setting up as follows:

sony svr-3000 ---> usb200 --->buffalo WHR-HP-G54 bridge ---> buffalo WHR-HP-G54 router

specs here:
http://www.buffalotech.com/products/product-detail.php?productid=115&categoryid=6

Then I think I accomplish the following:
-increased bandwidth
-available ports at my entertainment system for future devices
-can finally upgrade everything to 802.11g
-can use wpa

questions:
a) thoughts on the setup? Anyone have experience w/ Buffalo line?
b) what about MIMO wireless? Anyone actually build something w/ transfer rates approaching 100mbps w/ other lower speed devices?

thanks.


----------



## azitnay

juanian said:


> I hope that *my* questions are on-topic, since they do relate to using Belkin 7230's in WDS mode (but speed was not the main goal of my requests - just getting the best to do what I needed to do, so . . .).


Certainly sounds on-topic to me.

Drew


----------



## ashu

juanian said:


> So in the end, which is better - a v200x (with a switching power supply) or a v300x (with the increased range)?
> 
> I just found some of the older Belkins at a local Best Buy. They had one v2002 and two v3001. I bought a v2002 and a v3001. Mistake?
> 
> One other question: If I have a Linksys WRT54G router doing NAT, and I hook up the two Belkins in WDS mode, will they interfere with the wireless signal from the Linksys (for use by other wireless devices in the house, like a "roaming laptop")? Should I position the first 'wired' Belkin away from the Linksys, or does it matter? (Although I need to re-read the posts in various threads, I assume I want to choose one channel for the Linksys (like 11) and a different channel for the Belkins (like 1 or 6).)
> 
> Thanks


You re-read correctly. Different channels.

As to your 2002 vs 3001 questio - no clue. I have one v1444 and three v2001s.


----------



## juanian

ashu said:


> You re-read correctly. Different channels.
> 
> As to your 2002 vs 3001 questio - no clue. I have one v1444 and three v2001s.


Thanks - I think today is the day I'll have a chance to hook these up.

I'm assuming the router will be strong enough to override the interference I get from my neighbor (which totally knocks my computer off of my wireless network on occasion). I've tried different channels, no help. My wireless bridge will be more line-of-site, so I've got my fingers crossed!


----------



## Resist

The Microsoft XBox wireless game adapter also works!

Makes me wonder if the new XBox 360 wireless game adapter will also work. It doesn't need a power outlet, uses only the USB port and is very small.


----------



## eibgrad

For those, like myself, not able to get bridging + WPA to work w/ the F5D7230-4/F5D7231-4 routers, I did a little searching and found the following:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13718146?hilite=belkin+f5d7130+firmware

Quoting ziddey (6 messages into post), "You can't do wpa with that thing unless you make it so it's bridge only no clients."

Hmm..., interesting. As it happens, I have ONE client, which connects to my F5D7231-4 in AP mode (patched to my DI-624 router). I'm wondering if anyone else can confirm this. I plan to try disabling my client and check myself. Just wondering if all those having success w/ bridging + WPA are indeed "clientless".

eibgrad


----------



## 1283

router: WDS/WPA and wireless clients enabled
AP: WDS/WPA and wireless clients disabled

I disabled wireless clients on the AP so that my laptop can connect reliably to the router. I was hoping to use the AP as a repeater, but most of the time it didn't work.


----------



## RaptorXXX

My current configuration is:

80 Hr TiVo 1 - wusb11 1 - BEFW11S4
80 Hr TiVo 2 - wusb11 2 - same BEFW11S4

BEFW11S4 is in office and connected to DSL. TiVo 1 is in living room and TiVo 2 is in bedroom and both TiVo's are wirelessly connected via wusb11's. My limitations, currently, are WEP encryption only and non-G transfer speeds since I use TiVo2Go. I currently do not broadcast SSID and I utilize MAC filtering so I know enough only to be dangerous.

My issue is that I have 3 ea WRT54GS's, 2 ea USB200M's, and associated wireless G cards for my laptops, all sitting in a Best Buy bag looking to be setup and configured. The USB200M's are the correct version (orange CD's visible in contents listing on box) and the WRT54GS' are all version 4's (not 5's) so I believe I have the correct hardware to complete this project. I want to wirelessly configure my TiVo's to the WRT connected to my DLS line utilizing WPA. 

I have reviewed post 97 and am wondering if this will work for my setup. I am wondering if I should bridge the two TiVo WRT's or should I do the Alchemy route of client/server? I've read posts on the differences but have not grasped the concepts yet. IF I went the Alchemy route, would I need to flash all three WRT's?

Any assistance or references to helpful links would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks In Advance


----------



## eibgrad

RaptorXXX said:


> My current configuration is:
> 
> 80 Hr TiVo 1 - wusb11 1 - BEFW11S4
> 80 Hr TiVo 2 - wusb11 2 - same BEFW11S4
> 
> BEFW11S4 is in office and connected to DSL. TiVo 1 is in living room and TiVo 2 is in bedroom and both TiVo's are wirelessly connected via wusb11's. My limitations, currently, are WEP encryption only and non-G transfer speeds since I use TiVo2Go. I currently do not broadcast SSID and I utilize MAC filtering so I know enough only to be dangerous.
> 
> My issue is that I have 3 ea WRT54GS's, 2 ea USB200M's, and associated wireless G cards for my laptops, all sitting in a Best Buy bag looking to be setup and configured. The USB200M's are the correct version (orange CD's visible in contents listing on box) and the WRT54GS' are all version 4's (not 5's) so I believe I have the correct hardware to complete this project. I want to wirelessly configure my TiVo's to the WRT connected to my DLS line utilizing WPA.
> 
> I have reviewed post 97 and am wondering if this will work for my setup. I am wondering if I should bridge the two TiVo WRT's or should I do the Alchemy route of client/server? I've read posts on the differences but have not grasped the concepts yet. IF I went the Alchemy route, would I need to flash all three WRT's?
> 
> Any assistance or references to helpful links would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks In Advance


My experience is ALL Belkin, but the concepts are the same regardless of brand.

I assume these WRT54GS units are routers that support bridging (i.e., WDS). All we're doing with these bridges is substituting your current setup, which uses client-based USB wireless adapters, with these bridges via standard USB ethernet adapters (USB200M). By doing so, it simply pushes the wireless configuration OUTSIDE the Tivo, and thus eliminating compatibility issues. The only compatibility issue for Tivo remains ethernet adapters, which is trivial (USB200M is supported, so is my D-Link DUB-E100, among others).

THAT'S IT! That's all we're doing. Once the wireless configuration is pushed out to the bridges, it's just standard configuration issues. The Tivo's are ignorant of any wireless issues, as far as the Tivo's are concerned, they're connected via *wire* and should be configured as such. So all you do now is configure your bridges so they can communicate with your third wireless router (WRT54GS). I presume this is replacing your current BEFW11S4 802.11b router.

At this point, it could vary slightly by brand. Some routers can only be configured as a router OR wireless bridge, not both. For these types, you'd have to configure the third router (WRT54GS in your case) as another bridge, then patch over LAN ports to your existing BEFW11S4 (might make sense to disable the BEFW11S4 wireless at that point if you intend to go ALL 802.11g). IOW, the third WRT54GS is merely a drop-point for other bridges and other 802.11g clients to the BEFW11S4.

In other cases, the third router can be configured as a router AND bridged. In that case, you'd simply replace your existing BEFW11S4 w/ the new WRT54GS router and you're done.

I'm offering both possibilities simply because I don't know the capabilities of the WRT54GS router. You'll have to determine that for yourself.

Believe me, once you set it up and see it in action, you'll look back on it and realize it was a lot harder and more complicated to explain than it actually is in action. The biggest leap people have to overcome is understanding that all we're doing is pushing the wireless issues OUTSIDE the Tivo. Once that's done, it's straight forward wireless configuration issues, only we're using bridges and not client-based adapters like the wusb11.

eibgrad


----------



## RaptorXXX

Eibgrad, thanks for the input. I am now associating WDS with bridging, which I did not understand previously. I do understand that I am pushing the wireless issues outside of the TiVo but thanks for mentioning it. I know that there are WRT experts that should chime in soon. My questions involve how to actually bridge the WRT's utilizing WPA and whether I need to do it via the Alchemy route. In the meantime, I'm trying to research this myself as well.

Thanks Again


----------



## DaddyBC

RaptorXXX said:


> Eibgrad, thanks for the input. I am now associating WDS with bridging, which I did not understand previously. I do understand that I am pushing the wireless issues outside of the TiVo but thanks for mentioning it. I know that there are WRT experts that should chime in soon. My questions involve how to actually bridge the WRT's utilizing WPA and whether I need to do it via the Alchemy route. In the meantime, I'm trying to research this myself as well.


I am using two WRT54G to do this with WDS. I would recommend you check out the sveasoft talisman firmware and their site, especially this article WDS Bridging


----------



## RaptorXXX

Thanks DaddyBC, I registered on Sveasoft and will most likely subscribe. Would I need to flash all three WRT's? I think the answer is yes. Also, what is the difference between Talisman and Alchemy?? Looks like Talisman would be the way to go since it is the newest. I have no issues with flashing since I have done it with computers and cell phones before and have read the WRT flash posts.

My hesitancy is the guts of configuring IP's, subnets etc and I'm looking for the best post to guide me in doing this. I'll study the Sveasoft post and get more conftorable with it. Today I'm going to eat some turkey though. Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving to all. Amongst so many things, I am so thankful for this site. The members are helping me now and have helped me in the past.


----------



## DaddyBC

RaptorXXX said:


> Thanks DaddyBC, I registered on Sveasoft and will most likely subscribe. Would I need to flash all three WRT's? I think the answer is yes. Also, what is the difference between Talisman and Alchemy?? Looks like Talisman would be the way to go since it is the newest. I have no issues with flashing since I have done it with computers and cell phones before and have read the WRT flash posts.
> 
> My hesitancy is the guts of configuring IP's, subnets etc and I'm looking for the best post to guide me in doing this. I'll study the Sveasoft post and get more conftorable with it.


I went with Talisman because of some of the other options. Flashing the firmware is easy. Its just like updating the firmware when Linksys comes out with new ones.
There are several guides on their website depending on exactly what you want to end up with.


----------



## Rallyman

Security Question.

I've got my network setup pretty much as described above. One DLink DI 624 router (radio turned off) w/ 3 Belkin F5D7130 AP's ( One AP wired into the Dlink and the other two connected to my two TiVo's). All of the Belkins are in "Wireless Bridge" mode and I have selected the option to only allow certain MAC addresses to connect. Specifically each Belkin has the MAC address of the other two input as being allowed to connect. I have changed the default SSID and am not broadcasting it. I have not selected the "Disable wireless clients" option, surely with MAC address filtering and SSID not being broadcast I'm relatively secure. Yes? No?

Rallyman


----------



## azitnay

Do you have WEP (or better yet, WPA) enabled?

MAC addresses are easily spoofed, and just because your SSID isn't broadcast, that doesn't mean it's impossible to find.

Usually not a huge concern unless you have a reason to believe someone's going to try to break in, but it's worth turning on WEP/WPA if you can.

Drew


----------



## Rallyman

azitnay said:


> Do you have WEP (or better yet, WPA) enabled?
> 
> MAC addresses are easily spoofed, and just because your SSID isn't broadcast, that doesn't mean it's impossible to find.
> 
> Usually not a huge concern unless you have a reason to believe someone's going to try to break in, but it's worth turning on WEP/WPA if you can.
> 
> Drew


I was afraid that someone would say that  . I didn't really want to mess with it, but I guess I should.

Rallyman


----------



## RaptorXXX

Azitnay, thanks for the question conccerning WPA. That is my second reason for upgrading my network, being to enable WPA. My first reason is for faster T2G transfers as well as other large file transfers I am ready except for the actual guts of the configuring. All three TiVo's have been successfully flashed to Talisman now...that was easy. 

Now I just have to pull the plug on my old network and start the configuring process. I have a few posts from Sveasoft, as a guide. Looks like WDS EPA encrypted mode. I'll most likely attempt on Mon. Need to print out the posts and understand a little more. There's always the chance that it will be easier then I thought but better to be prepared for the worst then be unprepared...just me.


----------



## juanian

juanian said:


> Thanks - I think today is the day I'll have a chance to hook these up.


OK, so it took quite a while longer for me to get around to hooking these up and getting my TiVo set up "wirelessly" using WPA. (Yay, no more 50' wire strung along the hallways!)

So, here's my "current" setup (thanks to merlincc and Lopey and all the rest for the information about their configurations!): 
1: Linksys WRT54G hooked up to my cable modem, also providing DHCP and local wireless access.

2: Belkin F5D7230-4 v3001 (5.00.02), set up as router with wireless bridging (wired to my Linksys, TiVo #1 (and soon to my PS2!)).

3: Belkin F5D7230-4 v2002 (4.05.03), set up as an Access Point with wireless bridging (wired to TiVo #2 and my Mac).

So far, so good -- MRV works fine; a 5 minute show (basic quality) transferred in about 110 seconds, which is close to what I can get wired with my old model 140 (USB 1.1).

The one other thing I'd like to do (which might not be possible) is to try and enable port renumbering and redirection (if possible). The Linksys I have as my main router has port redirection, but not renumbering. I'm wondering if I can use the port renumbering of the Belkin router (available under Firewall > Virtual Servers) to renumber some ports. I've tried a few things, but they haven't worked yet. (Hmm, what IP address to assign in the Linksys?)

A few notes: 
The box for the v3 says v3001, but the label on the router says 3000.

The box for the v2 says v2002, but the label on the router says 2000.

Belkin has a automated step-by-step process for setting up the routers as WDS, but I didn't quite follow it (since my configuration was different than their standard setup). The automated system did specifically enquire about the firmware versions of the first router (called "router") and the second router (called "Access Point"). The router supports a firmware version up to 5 (which is what the v3001 has), and the AP supports a firmware version up to *4* (which is what the v2002 has). It looks like I might have been screwed if I would have gotten two v300x routers.

The automated help specifically says that WPA is not supported with WDS, but I was able to choose WPA/TKIP as the security for both ends. Does this mean that the help is wrong, or that the routers are not actually doing WPA even though I selected it?!? I have checked the "Disable ability for Wireless CLIENTS to connect" -- hopefully this will close up any security gap that might have been opened, right?

For giggles, I tried removing my Linksys and connecting my cable modem directly to the Belkin. I *was* able to get it to work, and I could connect wirelessly, but connections seemed slow and not very reliable. (I'm not sure if it was a DNS issue or something else.)


----------



## rji2goleez

Hello everyone. I've read this thread over the last two days excited about the prospect of real time or better transfers of Tivo to PC. I'm really interested in Tivo to PC to Ipod which works great except for my current wireless B adapter on my Humax DRT 800 Tivo.

I read on page twelve in this thread that someone successfully was able to use a Belkin Pre-N router on a system for Tivo transfer. I already have a Pre-N but have been unsuccessful linking a Belkin 7230-4 as an access point (through an ethernet attached to my Tivo2). Belkin support says the Pre-N cannot be bridged and I was unsuccessful specifying the MAC address of the 7230-4 access point as being allowed. Anyone had any success using the Pre-N?

I've since disconnected the 7230-4 from my laptop (used for configuration) but I seem to periodically get an IP conflict message (in WinXP) and am forced to restart my Pre-N. My router is back to its original confuration (e.g., disabled MAC filtering, WEP enabled). Any suggestions?

Now, I'm looking to buy a second 7230-4 and create a 'standard' Belkin setup per this thread. I wonder how much of a coverage performance hit I will take (if at all) using two 7230-4's versus my Pre-N. Thoughts?

This has been a great thread . . .

Bob


----------



## rji2goleez

Hi again everyone.

OK, I consider myself network challenged but computer savvy (does that make sense?). I'm trying to connect my Tivo2 via the belkin set up described in this thread.

Broadband wireless router: 
Belkin 7230-4
DHCP Server: ON
IP Pool address 2-100
Bridging enabled

Tivo wireless router (connected through ethernet)
Belkin 7230-4
DHCP Server: ON
Access Point enabled with IP: 192.168.2.254
Bridging enabled

Here's problem number 1
After I set the IP address for the Tivo router using my laptop, I am asked to re-enter the ip addy (192.168.2.254) in the browser bar and I successfully get into the belkin router config screen. Seems like I have things set up properly but I don't seem to be able to access an internet connection through the access point using the laptop. Further, if I close IE and then reopen and type 192.168.2.254 in the browser bar to open the config utlity, I can't get there. (I'm not typing http, etc.). I'm stumped. My only recourse has been to do a hard reset of the Tivo access point and start changing factory defaults. I think I'm following the tips here but I must be missing something silly.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Bob


----------



## Lopey

First, you have two DHCP servers running. You should only have 1 be the DHCP, the one that is connected to the internet should be running the DHCP. Disable one of the DHCP's and restart your laptop so it gets an IP address from the correct source. Also, make sure both router's don't have the same IP address. I like to make things simple, so I would make your main router be 192.168.2.1 and the second router be 192.168.2.2. I think it just makes it easier when it's lower number, just my opinion. Try that and let us know.


----------



## eibgrad

Rallyman said:


> Security Question.
> 
> I've got my network setup pretty much as described above. One DLink DI 624 router (radio turned off) w/ 3 Belkin F5D7130 AP's ( One AP wired into the Dlink and the other two connected to my two TiVo's). All of the Belkins are in "Wireless Bridge" mode and I have selected the option to only allow certain MAC addresses to connect. Specifically each Belkin has the MAC address of the other two input as being allowed to connect. I have changed the default SSID and am not broadcasting it. I have not selected the "Disable wireless clients" option, surely with MAC address filtering and SSID not being broadcast I'm relatively secure. Yes? No?
> 
> Rallyman


Your setup is almost 100% identical to mine, same DI-624 router, wireless off, belkin AP patched to router, and two Tivo's using bridged Belkins.

I've yet to be able to enable WPA as others have w/ this configuration, undoubtedly the biggest security issue for me. Only using WEP so I have at least something. As I indicated in a previous post, I found some info on why I may be having a problem, others are reporting that if you have a wireless client (usb, pci, etc.) using those APs, then WPA won't work. I've yet to confirm it.

That said, I've disabled SSID broadcasts and turned 54G-Only mode ON. The idea here is to at least make penetration more difficult, but hardly impossible. I figure if I require G access, then at least B wireless is denied. Similarly, SSID broadcasts being disabled at least stops the wireless from SHOUTING its presence, but anyone w/ a sniffer can easily detect it. Again, it's the casual snooper we're trying to address.

I've also disable clients AT LEAST on the Tivo APs. There's really no good reason any client adapters should be leapfrogging on these APs. But I do keep client access open on the AP attached to the DI-624. And as I said, it's one of the things that *may* be preventing WPA from working.

In the end, the only real protection you have, except for these "annoyances" we create, is WPA. With a GOOD, LENGTHY, RANDOM key, it's awfully difficult to break. Everything else, including MAC filters, IP filters, etc., are minimally effective to the determined hacker. But at least it's something.

Here's my recommendations:

- Disable SSID (and use something other than "default" or otherwise obvious)
- 54G-Only mode
- Protected Mode: OFF (performance issue, not security)
- Disable ALL client access to APs (use the D-Link DI-624's own wireless if you must)
- Enable only specific wireless APs to connect
- Disable all wireless clients

On your DI-624, you'll want to:

- Enable DHCP static assignments, and ONLY define a range for those devices you know need an IP address, also make leases as long as possible
- Use a non-typical IP scope (the default is usually too easily guessed)
- Add MAC filters that allow only known and trusted MACs
- Add IP filters (or firewall rules) that specifically EXCLUDES any IPs not specifically needed by DHCP's static assignments
- If you use the wireless on the DI-624 for clients, keep the transmit power as low as possible, something that keeps range and performance acceptable without needlessly extending beyond that.

But never kid yourself about all the non-WPA stuff, it's merely to throw a few obstacles up. But a determined hacker can break though with enough time and effort. WEP helps a smidgen, but WPA is really your only real protection in the long run.

eibgrad


----------



## eibgrad

rji2goleez said:


> Hi again everyone.
> 
> OK, I consider myself network challenged but computer savvy (does that make sense?). I'm trying to connect my Tivo2 via the belkin set up described in this thread.
> 
> Broadband wireless router:
> Belkin 7230-4
> DHCP Server: ON
> IP Pool address 2-100
> Bridging enabled
> 
> Tivo wireless router (connected through ethernet)
> Belkin 7230-4
> DHCP Server: ON
> Access Point enabled with IP: 192.168.2.254
> Bridging enabled
> 
> Here's problem number 1
> After I set the IP address for the Tivo router using my laptop, I am asked to re-enter the ip addy (192.168.2.254) in the browser bar and I successfully get into the belkin router config screen. Seems like I have things set up properly but I don't seem to be able to access an internet connection through the access point using the laptop. Further, if I close IE and then reopen and type 192.168.2.254 in the browser bar to open the config utlity, I can't get there. (I'm not typing http, etc.). I'm stumped. My only recourse has been to do a hard reset of the Tivo access point and start changing factory defaults. I think I'm following the tips here but I must be missing something silly.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help.
> 
> Bob


Lopey is correct. Remember what you're trying to do here. You want one of the Belkins to be configured as a plain ol' router, nothing special, the same thing everyone does when having to configure internet access. In fact, YOU SHOULDN'T EVEN BE CONFIGURING FOR ANYTHING *BUT* INTERNET ACCESS ON THE PRIMARY BELKIN ROUTER!!!

IOW, fortget all the crap about wireless bridging, Tivo's, etc., for now. Get the router working w/ your laptop, desktop, whatever FIRST. Trying to configure the system ALL AT THE SAME TIME will only lead to confusion. It becomes too difficult to diagnose a problem when there are so many variables, keep it simple, don't employ security at all UNTIL all is working w/o security FIRST. That eliminates one source of problems that can be addressed later. Once you can use the router successfully w/ a laptop or router, NOW configure your Tivo.

The easiest thing to do is patch to the second Belkin w/ a laptop, then configure the laptop's IP config to use a static IP, one that is in the same scope as the default scope of the Belkin. When the laptop boots, navigate to the belkin configuration. Now you want to configure the Belkin in this case as a pure AP (Access Point). When you do, things like DHCP, NAT, firewall, etc., become irrelevant, in fact, disabled. Now you enable wireless bridging so that other Belkin APs and your router can communicate. That will require providing the MAC address of each others devices on the router and AP(s), of course, so that they can find each other.

Believe it or not, that's really the nuts and bolts of this configuration, it's not really all that complicated. What complicates it is all the *other* stuff, like the various configuration options to limit access by wireless clients, allowing only specific APs to be bridged, security (WEP, WPA, etc.), MAC and IP filters, and the rest of it.

I can't stress too much, KEEP IT SIMPLE!!! Do ONE thing at a time!!! Climb one step at a time. The temptation by the novice is to solve EVERY issue in one fell swoop. In the long run, it will take you longer because it will prove exceedly difficult to convey your problems and for us to diagnose them with so many variables in the mix. If you can't even get basic Internet access going w/ the router, for example, why complicate that problem w/ all the rest of these bridging issues. Once that's working, THEN go to the bridging issue. Once that's working, then deal w/ security. If you have a problem at any given point, at least we know where and where not to look. This is *the* biggest mistake I see new users make. Trying to do too much at once.

Btw, as far as pre-N, I don't believe these F5D7230's can be bridged to pre-N devices.

Here's a sequence I recommend:

1. Configure Belkin # 1 as router, use mostly defaults so Internet access is achieved w/ as few hassles as possible. Confirm connectivity with laptop via wired (not wireless).

2. Enable wireless bridging on router and specify address of the other Belkin's WAN MAC.

3. Patch laptop to second Belkin, boot laptop, and configure it for static IP in same scope as Belkin. Navigate to Belkin configuration and enable Access Point mode. Make sure this AP uses a DIFFERENT static IP assignment from router, and it's not in the DHCP range of that router (I like to start from the top of the same scope and work backwards, e.g., 192.168.1.254, 192.168.1.253). Configure it for wireless bridging as well, and specify the router's WAN MAC.

4. Reset laptop network config to use DHCP again, keep patch cable connected, then reboot. Once booted, you should be able to connect THROUGH the AP to your router, obtain an IP address, and reach the Internet. You have to make sure this works, because if it doesn't, it's not going to get any easier w/ the Tivo. Your Tivo will be doing the very same thing as your laptop once we get that far, so get this working first.

5. Install ethernet adapter on Tivo, patch ethernet cable from adapter to Belkin AP, and initialize it w/ Tivo setup (wired type connection, NOT wireless!). If your laptop worked, there's no reason the Tivo shouldn't either. Heck, you don't even need to disconnect the laptop, both the laptop and Tivo should be able to reach the Internet w/ their own unique IP assignments from the DHCP server.

Do NOT use security for ANY of these operations, it only obscures problems. When all is working, THEN go back and start adding security, limiting IP scopes, MAC filters, disabling clients, etc.

eibgrad


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## rji2goleez

Lopey/Eibgrab:

First, thanks so much for the detailed replies.

As mentioned in Eibgrab's response, I have had not problem getting the main belkin functioning as a router. My issues have been getting the right settings in the AP. I knew I wasn't there as my laptop could not access the internet.

I was unaware of the step to set my laptop to static IP when configuring the Belkin AP and then setting back once done. I'll try this tonight. Otherwise, I thought I followed your steps. I did note that the Belkin AP did have DHCP on even though it was set as an access point. 

thanks again for your prompt replies!!!

Bob


----------



## ashu

Seems you've already gotten the responses that will help set things right.

When configuring settings on an incompletely configured AP/router etc., the PC yo have connected to it needs to have SOME valid IP (hence, in the absence of another DHCP source, a static IP needs to be set).


----------



## juanian

rji2goleez said:


> . . .
> Broadband wireless router:
> Belkin 7230-4
> DHCP Server: ON
> IP Pool address 2-100
> Bridging enabled
> 
> Tivo wireless router (connected through ethernet)
> Belkin 7230-4
> DHCP Server: ON
> Access Point enabled with IP: 192.168.2.254
> Bridging enabled
> . . .


I had heard that it was not possible to have just two Belkin 7230-4 set up as internet router and bridged access point, and that you needed to wire one of the Belkins to *another* router which is connected to the cable/dsl modem. I'd *really* like to be able to just have my setup use the two Belkins, so I would like to see it work.

Bob, what are the version numbers of the 7230's you have (and what firmware versions). This might play a role in doing what you want.

I did try to get this to work, and I had limited success (see above post). Maybe when I get a chance, I'll try doing this in the sequence eibgrad described (including temporarily not enabling WPA). One other point: I *do* need to have wireless enabled (for roaming laptops); will this 2-Belkin setup work and allow this? (I would *think* that it would, but . . . )


----------



## rji2goleez

Gentlemen - Thank you all. We have successfully achieved connection. My issue was not realizing that:

1) I needed to use a static IP on the machine being used to set up the AP
2) I didn't realize that I actually had both Belkins set up to do DHCP

Once I resolved both of the these issues, I immediately achieved connection.

Juanian:

My set up uses two 7230-4, both version 2000, both firmware 4.05.03 and yes, my roaming laptop is working as well.

OK, so I'm still running in mixed mode as I have a work laptop that runs on 802.11b so would that be a reason that I am not achieving realtime transfer rate through Tivo desktop? It's certainly transferring faster but not realtime. The routers are only 1 room apart from each other, no more than 25ft.

Thanks to all again!!!

Bob


----------



## juanian

rji2goleez said:


> OK, so I'm still running in mixed mode as I have a work laptop that runs on 802.11b so would that be a reason that I am not achieving realtime transfer rate through Tivo desktop? It's certainly transferring faster but not realtime. The routers are only 1 room apart from each other, no more than 25ft.


I think I remember reading that using a mixed -b and -g network slows down the -g throughput (cuts it in half to avoid 'confusing' the -b devices too badly). At some time you don't need your -b laptop, temporarily change your router to be g-only and see if your throughput increases.

EDIT: I'll need to give it a try again. I just couldn't keep connectivity when I was trying it out. I had either no connectivity or intermittent and slow connectivity. Congrats on your success!

EDIT2: Older TiVos (like my model 140-) only have USB 1.1 hardware, so they can't go as fast as some newer models. How slow are your xfers?


----------



## rji2goleez

juanian said:


> I think I remember reading that using a mixed -b and -g network slows down the -g throughput (cuts it in half to avoid 'confusing' the -b devices too badly). At some time you don't need your -b laptop, temporarily change your router to be g-only and see if your throughput increases.
> 
> EDIT: I'll need to give it a try again. I just couldn't keep connectivity when I was trying it out. I had either no connectivity or intermittent and slow connectivity. Congrats on your success!
> 
> EDIT2: Older TiVos (like my model 140-) only have USB 1.1 hardware, so they can't go as fast as some newer models. How slow are your xfers?


Would I need to change the mode on both router and AP or just router?

As for xfer times. At one point a 30 minute show was scheduled to take 45 minutes. Now, in another test the same file will take just over an hour. Connectivity . . . yes. Impressive . . . not yet. I imagine I would get this transfer time just by replacing my Tivo wireless b with a wireless g at much less the cost. But before I do, I'll see what folks here might suggest. Remember, I'm transfering using Tivo Desktop and nothing more.

Bob


----------



## juanian

rji2goleez said:


> Would I need to change the mode on both router and AP or just router?


You would certainly need to change the router, and I guess changing the AP wouldn't hurt (I do have my AP set to "54G-Only").



rji2goleez said:


> As for xfer times. At one point a 30 minute show was scheduled to take 45 minutes. Now, in another test the same file will take just over an hour. Connectivity . . . yes. Impressive . . . not yet. I imagine I would get this transfer time just by replacing my Tivo wireless b with a wireless g at much less the cost. But before I do, I'll see what folks here might suggest. Remember, I'm transfering using Tivo Desktop and nothing more.


That does seem long, even for TiVo Desktop. (I have a Mac, so I can't use TiVo Desktop to xfer shows.) I do use Galleon running on a Windows 98 machine, and a transfer from my model 140- TiVo (using a Linksys USB200M) takes about 23 minutes to transfer a 1 hour (basic quality) show to the Win98 box. That is about the same to xfer a show from a model 540- TiVo to my 140- over the bridge.

Another question: When you use the wireless from a notebook (or from a computer directly connected to the remote bridge), do you have any problems retrieving web pages? Is it "zippy", or are there lots of 5-10 second pauses (and possibly some 'not found' errors or missing graphics)? If you have these problems, then you are seeing the same things I was seeing when I was only using the two Belkins. (With the Linksys as the main router and the two Belkins bridged, web page access across the bridge is zippy and fine.)


----------



## rji2goleez

juanian said:


> You would certainly need to change the router, and I guess changing the AP wouldn't hurt (I do have my AP set to "54G-Only").
> 
> That does seem long, even for TiVo Desktop. (I have a Mac, so I can't use TiVo Desktop to xfer shows.) I do use Galleon running on a Windows 98 machine, and a transfer from my model 140- TiVo (using a Linksys USB200M) takes about 23 minutes to transfer a 1 hour (basic quality) show to the Win98 box. That is about the same to xfer a show from a model 540- TiVo to my 140- over the bridge.
> 
> Another question: When you use the wireless from a notebook (or from a computer directly connected to the remote bridge), do you have any problems retrieving web pages? Is it "zippy", or are there lots of 5-10 second pauses (and possibly some 'not found' errors or missing graphics)? If you have these problems, then you are seeing the same things I was seeing when I was only using the two Belkins. (With the Linksys as the main router and the two Belkins bridged, web page access across the bridge is zippy and fine.)


I usually record at better than basic quality so maybe that's part of it too. But still, I'm not doing much better than I was on a straight 'b' wireless connection to Tivo.

As for your other question, once I reached connectivity everything was zippy. I don't trust my laptop because of the network configs on that thing that our IT dept puts on it. Everything is delayed on it. However, once connected through a desktop, accessing the internet through the AP was zippy.

I'm still puzzled by the xfer speed however. I need to go on the road for a day or two for work so I won't get to experiment until Wednesday.

Bob


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## eibgrad

Remember a few things here, any time you use mixed mode ("b" and "g" clients), you're going to hurt performance. Most of these wireless products will downgrade ALL clients to accomodate the slowest, that's the price you pay for supporting "b" clients too. So I strongly recommend you don't. I know Ashu, for example, supports his "b" clients on a DI-524 (IIRC), and has a Belkin in AP mode patched to it for "G" clients, which may be the Tivo's exclusively. As long as he maintains sufficient channel separation, he's OK. But most importantly, he keeps "b" and "g" clients on separate wireless networks.

I not only keep "b" clients off the G network (well, to be precise, I have no "b" clients, only "g"), but I also keep protected mode OFF. This prevents the overhead of checking for "b" clients when I know in fact I have none.

Another important point w/ these APs. If you use them for clients, such as your laptop, you have to remember that every "hop" from AP to AP (or AP to router) cuts your performance in HALF! Don't expect "peppy" performance when leapfrogging from AP to AP. Leapfrogging helps resolve "range" issues, but at the cost of performance. Just another reason NOT to use the APs for clients unless you have to. Of course, this doesn't affect the Tivo since it's wired to the AP, it's just one hop.

Finally, I strongly recommend using a USB 2.0 ethernet adapter on the Tivo's! Some ppl have been tempted to use USB 1.1 ethernet adapters because they save a few bucks, but this is problematic. USB 1.1 is limited to 11mbps, and even then, that's the theoretical limit, actual real world speed is much less (perhaps 6-7 mbps). However, w/ USB 2.0 adapters, you have a maximum of 480 mbps. Of course, your Tivo is likely limited to a USB 1.1 speed due to USB chipset limitations, but if you use a USB 2.0 adapter, you'll be able to maximize that USB 1.1 interface on the Tivo to the FULL 11 mbps. DON'T SCRIMP ON THE ETHERNET ADAPTERS! I use the D-Link DUB-E100, picked up two earlier this year for about $25 shipped on eBay, so they can be had cheap w/ some patience. Others use the Linksys USB200M, and there's the Netgear FA120. I just didn't notice a lot of details being provided about these adapters, it seemed to be something ppl were taking for granted, but it's a key component of the setup. Without the right adapters, you'll never fully exploit the G protocol w/ this setup.

eibgrad


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## rji2goleez

Eibgrab - Thanks for the additional information. I'm using the Netgear FA-120 as suggested by you here and throughout this thread. I'll be looking to make some the suggested changes you mention. I guess I need to investigate how to separate my tivo on a 'g' client so I can still use the laptop on 'b'.


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## rji2goleez

Thought. Can I use my belkin Pre-N as my router and then patch via ethernet a Belkin as an AP? Or better yet, if I can hardwire connect the 7230-4 to the Pre-N, what do I need to do the separate the Belkins on 'g'-only whereas the Pre-N continues to provide routing and 'b' support.

Bob


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## eibgrad

rji2goleez said:


> Thought. Can I use my belkin Pre-N as my router and then patch via ethernet a Belkin as an AP? Or better yet, if I can hardwire connect the 7230-4 to the Pre-N, what do I need to do the separate the Belkins on 'g'-only whereas the Pre-N continues to provide routing and 'b' support.
> 
> Bob


Yes, using a pre-N for the router but NOT using its wireless for bridging is fine. If all you do is patch a F5D7230-4 to that pre-N router w/ wire, then you haven't distorted the configuration. You are, in effect, doing what Ashu does, which is use one wireless network exclusively for the Tivo's, the other for clients. The only difference is, he's using a D-Link DI-524 to support "b'" clients, you're using a pre-N router for support of "n" clients. Other than that, it's identical.

Once you do, I recommend turning on 54G-Only mode w/ the Belkins APs to insure nothing but "g" is supported, and disabling client access to the APs to prevent errant usage. Both actions will add some security by, in effect, only allowing wired clients (i.e., your Tivo(s)). There's nothing "special" you have to do at that point. You simply configure all wireless clients (i.e., desktops, laptops), if any, to use the pre-N router. The only issue is the possibility of interference, which must be addressed in the typical fashion it always is -- good channel separation, perhaps keeping the units separated by some reasonable distance, etc.

eibgrad


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## mpost43062

So I have read through this thread and am still not clear if the setup I want will work. I would appreciate any pointers....thanks.

Current setup:
I have two desktop computers wirelessly connected to a linksys WRT54G (NOT running DHCP). That Linksys WRT54G is then wired to a vonage adapter (running DHCP). The vonage adapter is wired to my cable modem.

Desired setup:
I have three directivos with MRV that I would like to setup to talk to each other to transfer shows from one to the other and be able to connect to with my computers.

I would like to hard wire two of the directivos to the existing WRT54G (with the FA120 adapter). For the third one I would use an FA120 to a NEW WRT54G wirelessly connected to the existing WRT54G (both WRT54Gs using the SVEASOFT firmware).

Will this setup work so that the computers can connect to the directivos and directivos can talk to each other?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Mark


----------



## rji2goleez

eibgrad said:


> Yes, using a pre-N for the router but NOT using its wireless for bridging is fine. If all you do is patch a F5D7230-4 to that pre-N router w/ wire, then you haven't distored the configuration. You are, in effect, doing what Ashu does, which is use one wireless network exclusively for the Tivo's, the other for clients. The only difference is, he's using a D-Link DI-524 to support "b'" clients, you're using a pre-N router for support of "n" clients. Other than that, it's identical.
> 
> Once you do, I recommend turning on 54G-Only mode w/ the Belkins APs to insure nothing but "g" is supported, and disabling client access to the APs to prevent errant usage. Both actions will add some security by, in effect, only allowing wired clients (i.e., your Tivo(s)). There's nothing "special" you have to do at that point. You simply configure all wireless clients (i.e., desktops, laptops), if any, to use the pre-N router. The only issue is the possibility of interference, which must be addressed in the typical fashion it always is -- good channel reception, perhaps keeping the units separated by some reasonable distance, etc.
> 
> eibgrad


Great! Now excuse my wireless and networking ignorance but I have several questions:

1) So if one Belkin is wired into the Pre-N I assume the desktop that will be negotiating with Tivo should also be hardwired to that same Belkin.

2) Would this desktop have internet access through the DHCP server (Pre-N) if hardwired to this Belkin? Will it have access to my home network through the Pre-N.

3) Do I use a different SSID for the Belkins than I do for the Pre-N? (Previously, I had both Belkins using the same SSID).

4) Will the desktop that is

5) I assume that if I do not allow clients on the Belkin APs, then other wirless devices will automatically seek out and use the Pre-N.

6) Now what if I want another wireless 'g' machine to access the Tivo 'g' network wirelessly? I assume that I can allow clients to the Belkin and even specify MAC address. How do I ensure it connects to the Belkin rather than the Pre-N.

Sorry for all these questions. I can build computers and operate sophisticated software but I'm a newbie when it comes to networking and wireless. This is defintely changing that scene.

You guys here are great and thanks for all the insights.

Bob


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## eibgrad

[1) So if one Belkin is wired into the Pre-N I assume the desktop that will be negotiating with Tivo should also be hardwired to that same Belkin.

>> If you mean for something like Tivo Desktop, or maintenance, it doesn't really matter. All the desktop has to do is communicate w/ the pre-N router, beit wired or wireless. Either way, the access to the Tivo is assured because any such TCP/IP request will be directed through the pre-N router, over to the attached Belkin AP, and run finally over to the Tivo via the Belkin wireless bridges. I'd only prefer to see wired for the same reasons I *always* prefer wired -- it's more secure, stable, faster, etc. Wireless for clients only provides convenience, virtually every other aspect is a negative. So wired is ALWAYS preferred, but as far as making this all work, it just doesn't matter.

2) Would this desktop have internet access through the DHCP server (Pre-N) if hardwired to this Belkin? Will it have access to my home network through the Pre-N.

>> To be precise, internet access is a function of the routing capability of the router. DHCP's only job is to assign IP configuration information from a centralized server, that being the router itself. Your desktop, laptop, Tivo(s), all of them, will get their configuration information from the pre-N router, since that's the ONLY one that should be configured to serve as a DHCP server. The Belkin's should configured ONLY as access points and wireless bridges. The Belkins, when configured as routers, normally provide DHCP, NAT, firewall, etc., but we're purposely reconfiguring them for this setup so all they do is provide little more than a wireless "link" between one or more APs. In fact, the Belkin's do almost nothing except provide this linkage. Almost everything else is provided by the pre-N router.

Once all clients in your home network are either using wired or wireless to connect to the pre-N router, they can all communicate as normal, Windows workgroup networking, share files and printers, all of it, is just as you would expect.

Remember something here, IMAGINE how this looks!, all we're doing is establishing a typical router and client home network, there's nothing special here. All wired and wireless clients use the pre-N router. The ONLY difference is that we've established a separate, EXCLUSIVE (i.e., no wireless clients) wireless network for the Tivo's, which is then "patched in" to the pre-N router over a LAN port. That's it. From that point, access between the pre-N network and Tivo network (for lack of a better term) is assured because they are patched together via the LAN ports! It's no different than if you daisy-chained one or more switches together -- once linked via wire, access flows freely between them.

3) Do I use a different SSID for the Belkins than I do for the Pre-N? (Previously, I had both Belkins using the same SSID).

>> Common sense would dictate this is a good idea. Not sure it would matter, but just from a maintenance point of view, since each is a separate wireless network, why use the same name? Why confuse the situation needlessly? Again, I don't think it would matter, but it doesn't make sense to use the same name anyway. So why bother.

4) Will the desktop that is 

>> ??

5) I assume that if I do not allow clients on the Belkin APs, then other wirless devices will automatically seek out and use the Pre-N.

>> Nothing is automatic. I'm not familiar w/ pre-N, to be honest. If pre-N clients are backward compatible w/ B and G clients, then if both the pre-N and Belkin wireless networks are broadcasting their SSID, then sure, they'll each show up. Which is why I stated previously, why use the same SSID and confuse the setup process for clients?! Keep the SSID's different, then configure all clients to use the pre-N network (based on SSID). TIP: If you disable client access on the Belkin network, you'll add some security and have less chance of choosing the wrong network.

6) Now what if I want another wireless 'g' machine to access the Tivo 'g' network wirelessly? I assume that I can allow clients to the Belkin and even specify MAC address. How do I ensure it connects to the Belkin rather than the Pre-N.\

>> Hopefully this has already been made clear by previous answers. I assume by "wireless g machine" you mean another Tivo?? If so, you simply add another Belkin router in AP mode and hook it up like the others. If you mean a wireless "g" client, like a laptop or desktop, you may be missing the point.

Our attempt here, ideally, is to keep wireless clients OFF the "g" network used by the Tivo's. Initially this was a concern because being "b" compatible, some ppl were allowing "b" clients on the Tivo network as well, which then killed performance (that's how the issue got raised in the first place). It's just simpler and less hassle to keep ALL clients off the Belkin/Tivo network and leave it for the Tivo's exclusive use. Afterall, ppl are complaining about not getting realtime transfers already, why add more clients?! But if you DO want to add clients anyway to the Belkin/Tivo network, at the very least make sure they are "G" clients so that performance is maintained for the Tivo(s). But in all honesty, if you have the pre-N router, and it's backward compatible w/ G (and B) clients, why start introducing clients to the Belkin/Tivo network? What's the point? It's either nebulous, if you're lucky, or possibly hurts the performance of the Belkin/Tivo network if you accidentally introduce a rogue B client. My suggestion is KEEP EVERYTHING OFF THE BELKIN/TIVO NETWORK EXCEPT THE TIVOS! Less hassle, less confusion.

The ONLY justification for using the Belkin/Tivo network *might* be to extend the range of your clients. If, for example, you have a Tivo located at some far corner of the house, and a weak client adapter, say a roaming laptop, it's possible to connect THROUGH the Tivo's Belkin AP (if it's configured to allow clients), and thereby piggyback on that network up to the router. So it can be used in this fashion as a range extender, in a pinch. But remember that each AP hop cuts your performance IN HALF! Not to mention, anytime you allow client access, it potentially means someone else, a neighbor or hacker, has one more possible point of entry. We're trying to minimize points of entry as much as possible here, for security reasons. Finally, there's the issue of WPA. I can't confirm this, BUT, I've heard rumors to the effect that when client access is enabled on the Belkin/Tivo network, you can't use WPA, only WEP. That's a BIG difference, since WEP is very weak, while WPA is, for all intents and purposes here, unbreakable. Again, that's what I'm *hearing*, can't confirm as yet, but that alone would nail the issue down for me -- NO CLIENTS ON THE BELKIN/TIVO NETWORK!

HTH

eibgrad


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## rji2goleez

Eibgrab:

Guy, you are unbelievable. Thanks for the detailed, comprehensive and very understandable answers. I have full confidence now to go ahead. Some of these answers I expected but being a network neophyte, you've taught me a lot! 

I'm returning home tonight. Can't wait to try it out. At least by this method, I won't have to disturb my wife and son who complain anytime I take the network down for more than five mintues. By this method, the Pre-N network stays up while I configure the belkin!

Thanks again. I hope I can be of similar help to you and others.

Bob


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## rji2goleez

OK, I'm still suffering from very slow transfer. Tivo Desktop shows an average of 80 minutes for a 30 minute show at high quality. A on hour show recorded at Best quality is listed in Tivo Desktop to take 3 hours. Here are the details of my setup:

*Belkin Pre-N router*
Provides DHCP to workstations around my home.
Mixed mode (b, g and pre-n)
Wireless channel: 11
Encryption: 128 WEP
SSID: Name1
IP Address Pool: 192.168.2.1 though 100
Bridging not supported

*Belkin 7230-4 AP1*
Attached to Belkin Pre-N via ethernet (lan port to lan port)
Wireless channel: 3
SSID: Tivog
Encryption: None
Mode: 'g' only
Protection mode: off
Frame Burst: I tried both normal and burst mode
AP Only; IP 192.168.2.101
Disabled wireless client
Bridging enabled (entered MAC address of AP2; also tried entering both WAN and WAN/LAN MAC addresses)

*Belkin 7320-4 AP2*
Attached via LAN port to FA-120 (USB 2.0) and Tivo USB port (Humax DRT 800)
Wireless channel: 3
ssid: Tivog
Encryption: None
Mode: 'g' only
Protection mode: off
Frame Burst: Tried both normal and burst mode
AP Only; IP 192.168.2.102
Disabled wireless client
Bridging enabled (entered MAC address of AP1; also tried entering both WAN and WAN/LAN MAC addresses)

AP1 is in the same room as the Belkin Pre-N about 10 ft apart.
AP1 and AP2 are separated by 1 wall about 20 ft apart.
I've played with attennas, moved the APs, changed the wireless channel and these transfer times appear to be the best I can achieve.

What's wrong. This is no better than my wireless 'b' connection direct to the Tivo. I am stumped. Will an AP near a TV or stereo speakers affect performance? How about an AP near a computer or monitor? I've tried to account for these things but how close is close?

Bob

One more point, whether meaningful or not. I tested the desktop with Tivo Desktop attached both the Belkin Pre-N and AP1 via ethernet.


----------



## eibgrad

rji2goleez said:


> OK, I'm still suffering from very slow transfer. Tivo Desktop shows an average of 80 minutes for a 30 minute show at high quality. A on hour show recorded at Best quality is listed in Tivo Desktop to take 3 hours. Here are the details of my setup:
> 
> *Belkin Pre-N router*
> Provides DHCP to workstations around my home.
> Mixed mode (b, g and pre-n)
> Wireless channel: 11
> Encryption: 128 WEP
> SSID: Name1
> IP Address Pool: 192.168.2.1 though 100
> Bridging not supported
> 
> *Belkin 7230-4 AP1*
> Attached to Belkin Pre-N via ethernet (lan port to lan port)
> Wireless channel: 3
> SSID: Tivog
> Encryption: None
> Mode: 'g' only
> Protection mode: off
> Frame Burst: I tried both normal and burst mode
> AP Only; IP 192.168.2.101
> Disabled wireless client
> Bridging enabled (entered MAC address of AP2; also tried entering both WAN and WAN/LAN MAC addresses)
> 
> *Belkin 7320-4 AP2*
> Attached via LAN port to FA-120 (USB 2.0) and Tivo USB port (Humax DRT 800)
> Wireless channel: 3
> ssid: Tivog
> Encryption: None
> Mode: 'g' only
> Protection mode: off
> Frame Burst: Tried both normal and burst mode
> AP Only; IP 192.168.2.102
> Disabled wireless client
> Bridging enabled (entered MAC address of AP1; also tried entering both WAN and WAN/LAN MAC addresses)
> 
> AP1 is in the same room as the Belkin Pre-N about 10 ft apart.
> AP1 and AP2 are separated by 1 wall about 20 ft apart.
> I've played with attennas, moved the APs, changed the wireless channel and these transfer times appear to be the best I can achieve.
> 
> What's wrong. This is no better than my wireless 'b' connection direct to the Tivo. I am stumped. Will an AP near a TV or stereo speakers affect performance? How about an AP near a computer or monitor? I've tried to account for these things but how close is close?
> 
> Bob
> 
> One more point, whether meaningful or not. I tested the desktop with Tivo Desktop attached both the Belkin Pre-N and AP1 via ethernet.


Ok, a quick skim of the setup looks good (btw, leave frame bursting ON, that's fine). But I want a clarification. When you speak of taking 80mins to transfer a 30 min show, are you talking about a tranfer from Tivo to your desktop, OR, Tivo to Tivo?

The reason I ask is, when I say I get realtime transfers w/ Tivo using this setup, I'm talking about Tivo to Tivo. NOT Tivo to desktop. Even *I* don't get that kind of performance w/ Tivo to desktop. I'm also seeing MUCH longer transfer times from Tivo to desktop compared to Tivo to Tivo. Although I don't know w/ absolute certainty the reason, I suspect there's additional overhead associated w/ Tivo to desktop transfers, and what might that be? I suspect that DRM and encryption are a major source of the problem. IOW, it's not the network that's the problem, it's the overhead of adding DRM and encryption!

Now frankly, there have been others in this forum that claim their desktop to Tivo transfers are comparable to their Tivo to Tivo transfers. But I, personally, have never been able to achieve it. And I have TWO (2) Humax DRT800 Tivo's, and the performance discrepancy exists w/ both units. So this would tend to indicate this is NOT a configuration issue. As I said, given no other evidence, it seems to me it has to be processing overhead on the Tivo and/or desktop, NOT the network.

*UPDATE:* If you want to do a quick test, try this (assuming you have the cabling and it's practical). Remember that this configuration of the Belkin/Tivo network is a *substitute* for wire. It is LITERALLY possible to pull the ethernet cable on the Tivo side from the Tivo's ethernet adapter, then pull the Belkin AP's ethernet plug from the pre-N router and substitute a standard ol' ethernet cable on both ends, and have it work, UNCHANGED! So what you could do is, assuming you have sufficient ethernet cable, pull those plugs and substitute the ethernet cable. Now test your transfers. If the transfers are no faster, then it's not the network. Afterall, the USB 1.1 interface of the Tivo is maxed out at 11mbps, no matter whether we use wire or wireless. Therefore, ANY difference between wired and wireless should be neglible. And if that's the case, the wireless setup is irrelevant, the system is not bounded by the network configuration, but lies elsewhere (and I suspect it's the DRM/encryption process).

eibgrad


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## 1283

rji2goleez said:


> Tivo Desktop shows an average of 80 minutes for a 30 minute show at high quality.


With 540040, Netgear FA120, and Belkin routers, a 30-minute High quality show is transferred from TiVo to PC in about 40-45 minutes. Have you tried replacing the wireless bridge with an ethernet cable? If performance is the same, then the problem is not in the wireless bridge.


----------



## rji2goleez

eibgrad said:


> Ok, a quick skim of the setup looks good (btw, leave frame bursting ON, that's fine). But I want a clarification. When you speak of taking 80mins to transfer a 30 min show, are you talking about a tranfer from Tivo to your desktop, OR, Tivo to Tivo?
> 
> The reason I ask is, when I say I get realtime transfers w/ Tivo using this setup, I'm talking about Tivo to Tivo. NOT Tivo to desktop. Even *I* don't get that kind of performance w/ Tivo to desktop. I'm also seeing MUCH longer transfer times from Tivo to desktop compared to Tivo to Tivo. Although I don't know w/ absolute certainty the reason, I suspect there's additional overhead associated w/ Tivo to desktop transfers, and what might that be? I suspect that DRM and encryption are a major source of the problem. IOW, it's not the network that's the problem, it's the overhead of adding DRM and encryption!
> 
> Now frankly, there have been others in this forum that claim their desktop to Tivo transfers are comparable to their Tivo to Tivo transfers. But I, personally, have never been able to achieve it. And I have TWO (2) Humax DRT800 Tivo's, and the performance discrepancy exists w/ both units. So this would tend to indicate this is NOT a configuration issue. As I said, given no other evidence, it seems to me it has to be processing overhead on the Tivo and/or desktop, NOT the network.
> 
> *UPDATE:* If you want to do a quick test, try this (assuming you have the cabling and it's practical). Remember that this configuration of the Belkin/Tivo network is a *substitute* for wire. It is LITERALLY possible to pull the ethernet cable on the Tivo side from the Tivo's ethernet adapter, then pull the Belkin AP's ethernet plug from the pre-N router and substitute a standard ol' ethernet cable on both ends, and have it work, UNCHANGED! So what you could do is, assuming you have sufficient ethernet cable, pull those plugs and substitute the ethernet cable. Now test your transfers. If the transfers are no faster, then it's not the network. Afterall, the USB 1.1 interface of the Tivo is maxed out at 11mbps, no matter whether we use wire or wireless. Therefore, ANY difference between wired and wireless should be neglible. And if that's the case, the wireless setup is irrelevant, the system is not bounded by the network configuration, but lies elsewhere (and I suspect it's the DRM/encryption process).
> 
> eibgrad


I am talking about a Tivo to desktop transfer. I'll have to try the straight ethernet route just to satisfy my curiosity. But so far the gains, if any, of this setup is slim to none compared to my wireless b adapter straight out of the Tivo to the Belkin Pre-N. I'll just raid our IT dept for about 30ft of cat 5.


----------



## rji2goleez

c3 said:


> With 540040, Netgear FA120, and Belkin routers, a 30-minute High quality show is transferred from TiVo to PC in about 40-45 minutes. Have you tried replacing the wireless bridge with an ethernet cable? If performance is the same, then the problem is not in the wireless bridge.


Assuming a straight ethernet connection achieves 40-45 minutes on my setup, what could be the issue with the wireless bridge?


----------



## Rallyman

eibgrad said:


> Your setup is almost 100% identical to mine, same DI-624 router, wireless off, belkin AP patched to router, and two Tivo's using bridged Belkins.
> 
> I've yet to be able to enable WPA as others have w/ this configuration, undoubtedly the biggest security issue for me. Only using WEP so I have at least something. As I indicated in a previous post, I found some info on why I may be having a problem, others are reporting that if you have a wireless client (usb, pci, etc.) using those APs, then WPA won't work. I've yet to confirm it.
> 
> ...<SNIP>...
> 
> But never kid yourself about all the non-WPA stuff, it's merely to throw a few obstacles up. But a determined hacker can break though with enough time and effort. WEP helps a smidgen, but WPA is really your only real protection in the long run.
> 
> eibgrad


I'm having the same problem you are with respect to WPA. Thanks for the tip, if you find a work around please post, I'll do the same. As to the determined hacker, if they really have to get into "my" system at all costs they'll do whatever it takes including breaking in the house to get physical access. I'm only trying to keep the script kiddies out 

On another note, I want to say how happy I am with the speed of transfers. What a very pleasant surprise. In my first test of the speed I transferred a 30 minute show recorded at medium quality from one TiVo to the other. I started the transfer, counted to 15, then hit play. The transfer completed 10 minutes before the program ended and without a single glitch.

If that wasn't enough, going to this setup has helped my marriage. My wife is thrilled that the two 50 ft. patch cords are no longer running along the carpet all over the house...  Sometimes it takes so little to make them happy. 

Rallyman


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## eibgrad

Just a word to everyone on this thread regarding this wireless bridge setup.

Remember that this setup was originated in response for the need to transfer Tivo to Tivo, NOT Tivo to desktop. Tivo to desktop is a recent phenomenon, it only came to the table w/ the introduction of TivoToGo. IOW, no one is guaranteeing that Tivo to desktop transfers will be the same as Tivo to Tivo. The former was never the objective, certainly not when the majority of us went down this path (the option didn't even exist at the time).

That said, it's not obvious why *some* of us are having these dramatic differences in performance between Tivo to Tivo, vs. Tivo to desktop. Some ppl seems to be achieving similar performance, ppl like myself are not. Indeed, my Tivo to desktop performance is AWFUL. It's hard to understand how simply communicating w/ the desktop application (server) vs. another Tivo could result in such a dramatic difference in performance. All I can do is guess that it's related to DRM/encryption of the video stream when delivered to the PC (seems logical Tivo would want to secure that content more than Tivo to Tivo transfers). But this is pure conjecture. It is curious as well that other Humax DRT800 users are having problems just like I am, but those w/ other units are not. Maybe this is germane, maybe it's an issue related to specific make and model. Again, just speculating.

But I just want it to be clear that no one has GUARANTEEED Tivo to desktop transfers "as yet" that are comparable to Tivo to Tivo. Indeed, I myself reported these discrepancies some time ago (the TivoToGo feature only became available for the Humax DRT800 around June/July). Until the culprit is determined, Tivo to desktop performance remains "a work in progress". I can't in good conscience mislead ppl into thinking that wireless bridging is what I'm recommending for TivoToGo. I'm not, I never have. It was simply a natural extension of the original objective that came AFTER the fact. Many, many users got handed TivoToGo long before us Humax users did (in fact, I thought it would never come). Then it was there one day, and bamm, suddenly I notice these ridiculous transfer times w/ Tivo to desktop. To date, I have no answer. If anyone finds the answer, of course, let us know!

eibgrad


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## 1283

rji2goleez said:


> Assuming a straight ethernet connection achieves 40-45 minutes on my setup, what could be the issue with the wireless bridge?


Bad Belkin router, excessive interference, etc. You can remove TiVo from the equation by transferring data through the wireless bridge, with another PC/laptop instead of the TiVo.


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## eibgrad

c3 said:


> Bad Belkin router, excessive interference, etc. You can remove TiVo from the equation by transferring data through the wireless bridge, with another PC/laptop instead of the TiVo.


I have the same Humax, only the belkin wireless (so no interference issues, not from another wireless network of mine anyway), and get realtime Tivo to Tivo transfers, yet have the same problem w/ Tivo to desktop.

This leads me to believe it's not an interference issue. And it's not a small difference in performance, it's BIG! There's something else going on here.

eibgrad


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## 1283

eibgrad said:


> I have the same Humax, only the belkin wireless (so no interference issues, not from another wireless network of mine anyway), and get realtime Tivo to Tivo transfers, yet have the same problem w/ Tivo to desktop.
> 
> This leads me to believe it's not an interference issue. And it's not a small difference in performance, it's BIG! There's something else going on here.
> 
> eibgrad


What kind of transfer rate are you getting? For me, TiVo to TiVo is about twice as fast as TiVo to PC. That is normal.


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## eibgrad

c3 said:


> What kind of transfer rate are you getting? For me, TiVo to TiVo is about twice as fast as TiVo to PC. That is normal.


It's been so bad, I hardly use it and had to try just now to recall. I grabbed a 30 min show (High Quality), it's telling me 1 hr, 27 mins. Of course, this is shifting a bit over time, looks to me it will probably avg. out to 1 hr, 15 mins.

As far as your claim that Tivo to desktop being DOUBLE is normal, how do we know that? Is that what others are reporting? I have seen some ppl claiming nearly identical times, at worst maybe a 30 min show taking 45 mins from Tivo to desktop.

Is this as I suspect related to DRM/encryption? Anyone know for sure?

eibgrad


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## 1283

eibgrad said:


> As far as your claim that Tivo to desktop being DOUBLE is normal, how do we know that? Is that what others are reporting? I have seen some ppl claiming nearly identical times, at worst maybe a 30 min show taking 45 mins from Tivo to desktop.


There is another thread in which people reported transfer rates. My transfer rates are similar to other people's rates with similar machines.

TiVo-TiVo and TiVo-PC transfer rates should *not* be similar. TiVo-TiVo just sends the file from one unit to another. No encryption/conversion is necessary. Target should be an exact copy of the source, including glitches. TiVo-PC transfer requires the data to be processed by software first. That code has problem with error handling because a video glitch would terminate the TiVo-PC transfer.

juanian reported similar transfer rates "from 140 to PC" and "from 540 to 140". That makes sense because "from 140" is faster than "from 540", but "to 140" is faster than "to PC".

It sounds like the Humax DRT is twice as slow as the 540 for TiVo-PC transfer. Maybe the DRT has more resource limitations than the 540.


----------



## eibgrad

c3 said:


> There is another thread in which people reported transfer rates. My transfer rates are similar to other people's rates with similar machines.
> 
> TiVo-TiVo and TiVo-PC transfer rates should *not* be similar. TiVo-TiVo just sends the file from one unit to another. No encryption/conversion is necessary. Target should be an exact copy of the source, including glitches. TiVo-PC transfer requires the data to be processed by software first. That code has problem with error handling because a video glitch would terminate the TiVo-PC transfer.
> 
> juanian reported similar transfer rates "from 140 to PC" and "from 540 to 140". That makes sense because "from 140" is faster than "from 540", but "to 140" is faster than "to PC".
> 
> It sounds like the Humax DRT is twice as slow as the 540 for TiVo-PC transfer. Maybe the DRT has more resource limitations than the 540.


Thanx, that's helpful info. You may be right about the Humax, perhaps it's a different processor, less memory, whatever, but it would be interesting to know if ALL Humax DRT800's suffer as badly as mine, I suspect so. I just can't imagine there's any other explanation for it, it's hard to imagine how the wireless config could have any impact.

eibgrad


----------



## ashu

Huh - I always thought the 540 and the DRT800 were the same (cheaper USB combo CPU chipset) Series "2.5" units, and should have similar performance.

I have a 240 (original Series 2) and it is fast compared to the DRT800, but not by a massive factor. And I understand the 540 is also correspondingly slower than the 240.
(all discussions refer to transfers FROM the units in question).

FYI, the DRT800 and the Toshiba RSX20 seem essentially identical, when it comes to transfer speeds (all things cnofigured equally/identically). However, my RSX20 has a wired path to my media PC, while the DRT800 has to make a (Belkin) Wireless Bridge jump.

One of these days, I'm going to move my units around and re-benchmark a few transfers with (sets of) identical configs.


----------



## juanian

c3 said:


> . . .
> TiVo-TiVo and TiVo-PC transfer rates should *not* be similar. TiVo-TiVo just sends the file from one unit to another. No encryption/conversion is necessary. . . .


For an "off the shelf" Series 2 TiVo, the files are encrypted with a hardware-specific key (unique to each TiVo box), and does need to be decrypted to even be played on the same TiVo. I don't know if the decryption is done through hardware or software, and I also don't know if the hardware-specific decryption/encryption is more or less time-consuming than the DRM encryption, but it *is* encrypted. Actually, I don't even know if the DRM encryption is done through hardware or software either. (I guess I know very little about this!)

My hardware setup:
Linksys WRT54G router (connected to cable modem, Win98 box)
Belkin F5D7230-4 router (wired to Linksys and 540 TiVo)
Belkin F5D7230-4 router (as Access Point, set up in WDS mode to bridge to other Belkin via 802.11g) (wired to 140 TiVo)

Some simple timing tests I just performed using a 5 minute recording at Basic quality (60 MB) (time starts when the screen with the "Start Playing" appears, and time ends when data stops transfering):
TiVo (540) to TiVo (140) using MRV over wireless g bridge, both TiVos set to an "empty" channel (not recording Live TV): *1:10*
540 playing live TV to 140 playing show being transferred: *1:45*
Both recording live TV but not playing: *1:30*

Note that the transfer took *50% longer* if both TiVos were recording and playing while the transfer was occurring. (Remember, a TiVo is "always" recording, whether it is live TV or another show.) When I'm doing something (like forcing a connection or doing a transfer) and I don't care about live TV, I usually set my TiVo to channel 0 (which, for me, is the unconnected AV inputs). Now I have a better idea of just how much faster things happen when I do that! (Plus, it reduces wear and tear on the hard drive!)

I did some timing tests using Galleon 1.9 running on a Win98 box:
140 to Win98, playing live TV: *1:55*
140 to Win98, "empty" channel: *1:55*
540 to Win98, recording live TV and playing something else: *3:25*
540 to Win98, recording live TV, not playing show: *3:15*

Amazingly (but not surprisingly), the 140 (connected wirelessly) transfers much faster than the 540 (wired). Imagine (if I had the ability) also trying to burn a DVD at the same time! It is interesting that the time differences between recording and not recording were much smaller when using Galleon than using MRV.

I can't do timing tests using TiVo Desktop because I primarily use a Mac (possibly to be supported by mid-2006!), and don't have easy access to a WinXP machine (but my old 128MB Win98 PC runs Galleon just fine, as long as I don't plan on doing much else at the same time). I would expect that Galleon timings would be comparable to TiVo Desktop, but I can't tell. (Hopefully I can use TiVo Dektop with OS X 10.3 and will not need to upgrade to whatever the current OS is that time.)

EDIT: From what I have read, a model 140 only has USB 1.1 hardware, but a model 240 has USB 2.0 hardware. Also, 140's have the fan vents at the lower left and right sides of the TiVo, and 240's have the fan at the back.

EDIT2: Sorry about the topic drift of this post. Hopefully, this post is still on-topic enough (since it includes timings of wireless vs. wired).


----------



## Bruzer

I have a Toshiba RS-TX20 that I would like to network to my PC. I can get two Netgear WGR614 wireless routers fairly cheap ($10 each) and was wondering whether I can use those to make the wireless connection? The first router would be connected to my cable modem and a wired connection to my PC. The second would be next to my TiVo, with a USB 2.0 adapter connecting the router to the TiVo.

Thanks for any and all help


----------



## Grimm1

When I poured through this post about 8 months ago it seemed the consensus was that if you had to use wireless the best way to do it at the time was with a wired LAN adapter plugged into the tivo with the other end plugged into a wireless G access point. 

Does that still ring true or has the wireless G support improved enough to just go with a straight wireless adapter?


----------



## azitnay

The point of this thread has always been to achieve the best possible wireless throughput by removing all notions of wireless from the TiVo (allowing it to do what it does best, wired ethernet) and allowing third-party hardware to handle the wireless side.

I doubt native wireless G support will ever be quite as good as this "ultimate" setup on the current TiVo hardware.

Drew


----------



## mrtim

This is perhaps slightly off topic, but given that so many people in this thread mention this hardware I thought it might be worthwhile.

I just had my old WRT54G router die on me, so I figured I would just go get a new one. BZZT, wrong answer. Apparently around here the only units that can be found are version 5 of this router. V5 is using a new proprietary operating system and a complete ground-up rewrite of the firmware. This means:

- the firmware is a bit on the limp side at the moment. While I was getting fine wireless rates (noticeably better than my v1), my broadband throughput was cut at least in half. I imagine they will fix this in time, but this was not acceptable to me. Before buying of these in the future I would recommend googling "wrt54G v5" and see if this has been fixed. Right now you'll see nothing but a long list of complaints.

- none of the 3rd party firmware will work on this version, and may never work in the future due to both the nature of the OS and the reduced physical memory.

I ended up returning the WRT54G and getting a WRT54GS, which is the speedbooster model. The speedbooster-ness does nothing for me unless I buy new wireless adapters, but this model still uses the older OS and functions at full speed.

Just thought you'd like to know . . .


----------



## juanian

Thanks for the heads-up on the WRT54G V5 update. I guess it's not just Belkin that totally updates the innards (and sometimes the complete exterior) of an item, changing (reducing) its functionality, and leaves the model number the same.


----------



## Grimm1

azitnay said:


> The point of this thread has always been to achieve the best possible wireless throughput by removing all notions of wireless from the TiVo (allowing it to do what it does best, wired ethernet) and allowing third-party hardware to handle the wireless side.
> 
> I doubt native wireless G support will ever be quite as good as this "ultimate" setup on the current TiVo hardware.
> 
> Drew


OK thanks

So I missed out on all the awesome Belkin rebate deals. But this week CC has the F5D72304 on sale for $30 (no rebate). But I saw one post that mentioned the new versions of this model do not allow setting them up as a WAP. Has this been comfirmed and is there anyway from looking at the box what version you are getting?


----------



## 1283

Grimm1 said:


> OK thanks
> 
> So I missed out on all the awesome Belkin rebate deals. But this week CC has the F5D72304 on sale for $30 (no rebate). But I saw one post that mentioned the new versions of this model do not allow setting them up as a WAP. Has this been comfirmed and is there anyway from looking at the box what version you are getting?


WDS, not WAP. Version is usually printed on a sticker on the box. Old versions 200x and 300x have two antennas. The new version 400x has one antenna and does not support WDS.


----------



## Grimm1

c3 said:


> WDS, not WAP. Version is usually printed on a sticker on the box. Old versions 200x and 300x have two antennas. The new version 400x has one antenna and does not support WDS.


My misstake....but that would still be a bad thing right?


----------



## Rallyman

Grimm1 said:


> My misstake....but that would still be a bad thing right?


If you want to setup your network as described above then yes, it's a bad thing.

The newer Belkin f5d7230-4 (specifically ver. 4000) do not support WDS. As I was not able to locate any earlier versons in my area I used Belkin f5d7230 Wireless Range Extender/Access Point. Basically the same thing. (It just doesn't have any router capabilities).

I found them at the local Fry's for $30 each. Still a bargain considering what most wireless bridges go for.


----------



## pcar1947

I am using a WRt54GS with the Original Ultimate Setup. I noticed a decent improvement in Reliabiity and Transmit rates when I upgraded the Firmware to Version : v4.70.6 - HyperWRT 2.1b1 - Thibor . I configured the transmit rate to 67% and it has been awesome. http://www.hyperwrt.org/


----------



## Grimm1

Rallyman said:


> If you want to setup your network as described above then yes, it's a bad thing.
> 
> The newer Belkin f5d7230-4 (specifically ver. 4000) do not support WDS. As I was not able to locate any earlier versons in my area I used Belkin f5d7230 Wireless Range Extender/Access Point. Basically the same thing. (It just doesn't have any router capabilities).
> 
> I found them at the local Fry's for $30 each. Still a bargain considering what most wireless bridges go for.


Hmmm....I might have to go that route. I wasn't planning on using the Belkin as a router anyways and had not noticed that there was a "routerless" model that could accomplish the same thing.


----------



## MickeS

I was tinkering with my wireless networking today. I used to have my pc connected to a DWL-G122 usb wireless adapter, and the TiVo connected wired to the D-Link DI-524 router, using a D-Link DUB-E100 USB-Ethernet adapter. With that setup, I got a decent (I thought) transfer speed, about 600-700 kB/s. It was enough to do better than real-time transfers for medium recordings (my default).

Anyway, today I finally got around to connecting a D-Link DWL-G810 wireless bridge to my PC, replacing the G122. Wow, what a difference! My speeds are now constantly between 1000 - 1200 kB/s, with the most common speed being around 1050kB/s.

This isn't a "true" wireless setup, since the TiVo is wired to the router, but I was amazed at the difference in speed between the G122 and the bridge on the PC side!

If I need to move the router, I will get another bridge and connect to the TiVo. I wonder if the speed will stay the same?


----------



## azitnay

MickeS said:


> This isn't a "true" wireless setup


No... It's better .



MickeS said:


> If I need to move the router, I will get another bridge and connect to the TiVo. I wonder if the speed will stay the same?


Since the bottleneck at this point is most likely the TiVo's processing power, you'll most likely notice little or no speed dropoff if you introduce another bridge (unless the connectivity between the bridge and the router is less than ideal).

Drew


----------



## MickeS

Well, now I'm back to slower transfers, although they are slightly faster than before (around 700-800 kB/s now). I have no idea why! For 2 days, i got the 1000-1200 kB/s speed, and then all of a sudden last night it's down again. I haven't changed anything in the setup!

Argh... anyone know what might have happened?


----------



## Rallyman

MickeS said:


> Well, now I'm back to slower transfers, although they are slightly faster than before (around 700-800 kB/s now). I have no idea why! For 2 days, i got the 1000-1200 kB/s speed, and then all of a sudden last night it's down again. I haven't changed anything in the setup!
> 
> Argh... anyone know what might have happened?


What kind of security are you using? Is it possible that you have an uninvited guest on your wireless network sucking up all the bandwidth?

Just a thought.


----------



## Grimm1

I ended up finding some F5D7230-4 v3000 at Frys a few days ago. I bought 2 and a cheapy USB NIC by TrendNet. Fry's didn't have any of the adapters on the TiVo list so I figured for $12 I'd give the TrendNet a shot and the TiVo recognized it without a problem.

I configured the 2 belkin routers as wireless bridges/AP and plugged one into my D-Link router so that it is still handling the firewall and plugged the other into the TiVo (This is after I plugged each into my PC and configured them first). The only glitch that I ran into was when I set the security to WPA on both of them they both disappeared from my network. When I turn security off or set it to 128bit WEP they work just fine and the TiVo Desktop can see my TiVo and vice versa.

Any suggestions on how to get WPA-AES to work in this environment or should I just leave it with the WEP?


----------



## 1283

There may be two potential causes:

1. WPA/bridge works with one router and one (or more?) AP only. eibgrad could not get it to work with two APs, either.
2. v3000 does not work with WPA/bridge.

WPA/bridge works with one router and one AP, for v200x hardware.


----------



## eibgrad

c3 said:


> There may be two potential causes:
> 
> 1. WPA/bridge works with one router and one (or more?) AP only. eibgrad could not get it to work with two APs, either.
> 2. v3000 does not work with WPA/bridge.
> 
> WPA/bridge works with one router and one AP, for v200x hardware.


Finally got around to making one last attempt to implement WPA over my Belkin wireless setup, no dice. Changed both router/APs to disable clients, added WPA, same problem. I just can't figure out the "magic" that makes this work for some and not others. I appear to have the "right" equipment (version), but it just never works for me. Oh well, WEP it will have to be for the time being.


----------



## 1283

eibgrad, aren't you using the Belkins as APs only? I have one as router and one as AP.


----------



## eibgrad

c3 said:


> eibgrad, aren't you using the Belkins as APs only? I have one as router and one as AP.


Yeah, but IIRC, Ashu has an AP only setup too, and working WPA.


----------



## Grimm1

Also is it normal for the "Internet Status" to show as "No Connection" on the Belkin AP's? I plugged my PC into both and they do have Internet connectivity as well as the TiVo is accessing the internet so it is working....just thought it was odd that they both indicate that they are NOT connected to the internet.


----------



## eibgrad

Grimm1 said:


> Also is it normal for the "Internet Status" to show as "No Connection" on the Belkin AP's? I plugged my PC into both and they do have Internet connectivity as well as the TiVo is accessing the internet so it is working....just thought it was odd that they both indicate that they are NOT connected to the internet.


If both/all are configured as APs, then it *isn't* connected to the Internet! Yeah, you can *access* the Internet, but the AP is reporting NOT connected because it's WAN port (as opposed to LAN port) is NOT connected to the Internet.


----------



## juanian

I have WPA working, but I have one v2002 and one v3001; I don't know if two v300x can wireless bridge *and* do WPA (see this post for my setup).

I don't allow wireless connections to the bridges, and I don't know if that makes a difference with WPA. But, *do* make sure that your SSID is different for the wireless bridges than your 'main' network.


----------



## angel35

Does any one know about the new Tivo wireless adapter Tivo-AGO-100 it may be on sale through Tivo web site.It connect to 802.11.g or 802.11.b It has a Tivo logo on it.


----------



## azitnay

It's not on topic for this thread, but what do you want to know about it? It's available from http://www.tivo.com/2.7.1.asp.

Drew


----------



## jazz_man

OK, so after 3 days trying to get this piece of #[email protected]^# to work, I realize that it (at least mine) simply doesn't. 

Setup: 

HR10-250 hacked with Zipper
Linksys WRT54GS Router w/ WRT-DD Firmware (Nice!)
Linksys WGA54G (Upgraded Firmware to 1.1 from Linksys FTP)
Netgear FA-120 (After returning the Linksys USB200M V2)

Followed instructions to configure the game adapter. No WEP, correct SSID etc. Set to G only mode (Is that bad?) Using my laptop to test I'm able to ping the router from the adapter and ping a pc connected via the adapter from another PC. However, when I hook the game adapter to my TIVO (Hard-coded IP 192.168.0.50 and Router's GW address), I'm unable to ping the TIVO through a PC connected to the router! Unfortunately you can't ping the game adapter's IP without being directly connected to it (Uh!). Disconnect game adapter, and hook laptop ethernet directly to Tivo - works great. Telnet, FTP, etc. Eliminated the router by putting it in client-bridging mode and connecting it to the Tivo. Works perfect with my 802.11B wireless AP. 

So unless some genius takes pity on me and 1) provides some mysterious procedure I haven't tried/followed 2) Confirms this setup doesn't work

it looks like I will have to return the game adapter and replace it with either a D-Link DWL-G820 game adapter or a netgear WGE111 game adapter, or another Linksys WRT54GS router running in client-bridge mode. Man this is way harder than it should be.

My kingdom for a solution!!


----------



## DMaddox

eibgrad said:


> My experience is ALL Belkin, but the concepts are the same regardless of brand.
> 
> I assume these WRT54GS units are routers that support bridging (i.e., WDS). All we're doing with these bridges is substituting your current setup, which uses client-based USB wireless adapters, with these bridges via standard USB ethernet adapters (USB200M). By doing so, it simply pushes the wireless configuration OUTSIDE the Tivo, and thus eliminating compatibility issues. The only compatibility issue for Tivo remains ethernet adapters, which is trivial (USB200M is supported, so is my D-Link DUB-E100, among others).
> 
> THAT'S IT! That's all we're doing. Once the wireless configuration is pushed out to the bridges, it's just standard configuration issues. The Tivo's are ignorant of any wireless issues, as far as the Tivo's are concerned, they're connected via *wire* and should be configured as such. So all you do now is configure your bridges so they can communicate with your third wireless router (WRT54GS). I presume this is replacing your current BEFW11S4 802.11b router.
> 
> At this point, it could vary slightly by brand. Some routers can only be configured as a router OR wireless bridge, not both. For these types, you'd have to configure the third router (WRT54GS in your case) as another bridge, then patch over LAN ports to your existing BEFW11S4 (might make sense to disable the BEFW11S4 wireless at that point if you intend to go ALL 802.11g). IOW, the third WRT54GS is merely a drop-point for other bridges and other 802.11g clients to the BEFW11S4.
> 
> In other cases, the third router can be configured as a router AND bridged. In that case, you'd simply replace your existing BEFW11S4 w/ the new WRT54GS router and you're done.
> 
> I'm offering both possibilities simply because I don't know the capabilities of the WRT54GS router. You'll have to determine that for yourself.
> 
> Believe me, once you set it up and see it in action, you'll look back on it and realize it was a lot harder and more complicated to explain than it actually is in action. The biggest leap people have to overcome is understanding that all we're doing is pushing the wireless issues OUTSIDE the Tivo. Once that's done, it's straight forward wireless configuration issues, only we're using bridges and not client-based adapters like the wusb11.
> 
> eibgrad


Wow, what great info on this thread. I need advice, please, from some of you who have lived this!!! I have 3 Series2 590s (Humax: 1 80 hr, 2 40's). 6 months ago I bought a Belkin "G" router (F5D7230-4, ver. 3000) and a bunch of Belkin F5D7050 ver. 2000 USB adapters when they were practically giving them away. Alas, I now know the adapters do not work. I have the router working with my new Windows XP PC and cable modem.

Now that TiVo has come out with their own adapter for $50, from a cost perspective, I could go with 3 of those for what I could get USB-to-Ethernet adapters plus 3 more Belkin F5D7230-4's to set up as APs. However, will one setup offer significant transfer improvement speeds over the other? Any and all suggestions would be helpful. Thanks in advance.


----------



## BostonBob

This is an incredible thread! I spent most of the day yesterday digesting it. Santa gave me a new TiVo for Christmas. I purchased the latest NetGear RangeMax wireless router and USB adapter hoping to introduce a wireless network to my home and hook up my TiVo at the same time. That was before doing research. All of you know what I found out on this forum. My conclusion ... TiVo is way behind. If I'd known all of this before asking Santa for a TiVo box, I probably would have left it off the list. Until 802.11g is implemented with USB 2.0 and WPA, networking is too risky and too slow. I won't go there. Having it networked was one of the features I was really looking forward to. Now I have to run a phone cord the length of my living room and in front of my fireplace?!?!

I hope this isn't too far off topic. I applaud those of you who have figured out how to cludge this system's shortcomings into something that works. For me it's too much for mediocre (USB 1.1 thoughput) results. You'd think that implementing USB 2.0 would be at the top of the list...what an incredible improvement to already capable hardware (acknowledging there may be processing limitations impacting full bandwidth). And TiVo has their "G" adapter out now. Hopefully, they'll follow on with the other missing pieces soon. For a company on the brink, it seems like plugging this hole might really help sales to those of us interested in networked multimedia solutions.

*Thanks to C3, eibgrad and vlxjim for being particularly helpful to my understanding of the issues.*


----------



## azitnay

Hmm... USB 2.0 -is- implemented (since 7.x), and yes, there are processing limitations impacting full bandwidth.

Drew


----------



## BostonBob

Thanks for the update Azitnay. My box came out of the carton with a v 5 something software version. I have gotten an upgrade to v 7.2.1 subsequently, but missed discussions here about v 7.x fixing the USB 1.1 issue. Thanks! That's one of two out of the way.


----------



## Seattle

I have a question about the Belkin F5D7230-4 wireless router. Under the wireless bridge setting is has an option to disable wireless clients.
"Disable ability for Wireless CLIENTS to connect. (This feature should only be used when the AP is used exclusively to connect wirelessly to other APs.) " 
I used this option on all five of my Belkin routers. (I have two other routers for my computers to use with WAP security)
Is this a secure way to prevent access to my wireless network?


----------



## 1283

Seattle said:


> Is this a secure way to prevent access to my wireless network?


It's more secure than allowing client access, but that should not be the only security measure for the wireless network, since the bridges still have to communicate over the air.


----------



## mikellanes

I got 2 FA120's hooked up to a WRT54G running hypetwrt firmware in bridged mode, this rocks and I am pulling 2000-2500K all the way across the house.

I think this may be an easy way for some to hookup to wirelss g since you can score some on ebay very cheap ($40?) and update them with firmware or you may have an extra laying around, plus you have 4 ports (or more with a switch) as opposed to a gaming adapter, but I am sure there are ways around that too.

BTW: I am using 2 series 2 DirecTiVo's


----------



## oldgramma

I am not a computer literate person can anyone explain and give directions so I can network my tivo to my computer wireless the least expensive and easiest for an old lady to do I have a HUMAX 40 hr w/dvd


----------



## oldgramma

Can u explain in plain english the easiest and cheapest way to network a tivo to computer I have a humax 40 w/dvd and cable box thank you any help greatly appreciated.


----------



## cdeckert219

> I am not a computer literate person can anyone explain and give directions so I can network my tivo to my computer wireless the least expensive and easiest for an old lady to do I have a HUMAX 40 hr w/dvd


I just got a Humax 40 for Christmas and here was my solution. I tried a couple wireless solutions before reading the threads here (failed, of course!). Went the simple route and ordered a TiVo Wireless G. It showed up a week later, plugged it in and had it connected in about 2 minutes. That's assuming you already have wireless network in the house...

I have a Belkin "Pre-N" router configured with WEP and MAC control. Hope that helps!


----------



## captm0rgan77

Ok. I'm new to all this. I got my TiVo six months ago and last week my friend tells me about all this stuff. I've read pretty much all the postings on this forum and have a pretty good understanding of what is going on with the routers and wireless stuff. What I need help with is the software. Do you have to download software on your PC so it can recognize your TIVO and do you have to do something to your TIVO so it will do the same?
I have a Series 2 and software v6.1.

*Please help!!!!*


----------



## 1283

v6.1 is DirecTiVo, which I don't think is networkable without hacking.


----------



## emwoods

captm0rgan77 said:


> Ok. I'm new to all this. I got my TiVo six months ago and last week my friend tells me about all this stuff. I've read pretty much all the postings on this forum and have a pretty good understanding of what is going on with the routers and wireless stuff. What I need help with is the software. Do you have to download software on your PC so it can recognize your TIVO and do you have to do something to your TIVO so it will do the same?
> I have a Series 2 and software v6.1.
> 
> *Please help!!!!*


*

Tivo Desktop. You can download from the Tivo site. Once it is installed and running your computer will show up another Tivo in your Now Playing list and you transfer video to your Tivo. From the Tivo Desktop interface you can download from your Tivo to your computer.*


----------



## 1283

emwoods said:


> Tivo Desktop.


not for DirecTiVo


----------



## captm0rgan77

Well that sucks. Even if I get v7.1? I was looking at the TIVO brand wireless adapters. That won't work either?


----------



## SnakeEyes

Hmm, I'm still bit a unsure of everything. Would like to get my brother's new TiVo S2 on the network. I also want WPA encryption. What's the cheapest solution for me. My Linksys router is wireless B so if I can save cash I don't need G compatible hardware. I'd prefer sticking with Linksys since everything else on the network is, but it's not necessary if i can save some cash


----------



## austin61

captm0rgan77 said:


> I have a Series 2 and software v6.1.
> 
> *Please help!!!!*


*If you have version 6.1 you have an R10. To network that you need to replace the prom on the motherboard and then you can do some hacking to get it to network. If you had an older model Directivo that has version 6.2 on it it wouldn't be necessary to replace the prom.

Check the underground forum for more info.*


----------



## blips

eibgrad said:


> I started the ball rolling on the use of Belkin routers some months ago. I noticed at the time that the Belkin F5D7230-4 and F5F7231-4 routers support WDS (Wireless Distribution System), *PLUS*, they could be had cheap, often $10-20 AR (after rebate), or even FAR (free after rebate). Even picked up a router from Home Depot recently for $25 (price matched to Buy.com), w/ $40 rebate, so I made $15!
> 
> The reason this situation is so compelling for use w/ Tivo is a) the routers support WDS, so they can be bridged, b) they're dirt cheap (compared to a dedicated wireless bridge or game adapter, easily $80 or more), and c), support for "G" protocol.
> 
> So the basis of discussion in this forum has been to aquire these Belkin routers, configure them as APs (Access Point), and enable bridging. Thus, each Tivo can have its own dedicated AP. All it takes is adding a USB 2.0 ethernet adapter (e.g., D-Link DUB-E100), then patching it to the AP. Because all the wireless configuration lies outside the Tivo, it removes any limitations or restrictions on wireless imposed by Tivo (e.g., "b" only). You just want to make sure you use USB 2.0 ethernet adapters (as opposed to USB 1.1) to get the most bandwidth of the "G" protocol as possible.
> 
> There are several configurations possible. Some people use one of the Belkin routers *as* a router, the other routers are reconfigured as AP w/ bridging enabled on all devices. The WDS support makes this possible, something not typically found on competitive brands at this same price level.
> 
> In my case, I find the Belkin router, as a router, to be quite limited, doesn't provide all the features I'm come to expect w/ an advanced router, such as that found on my D-Link DI-624. Therefore, I've kept my DI-624 but disabled the wireless, then patched one of the Belkin routers in AP mode (and of course, bridging enabled) to the DI-624 w/ a simple ethernet patch cable. All other Belkin routers are also configured as APs w/ bridging enabled, but all these are patched to my Tivos. Of course, you can do the same thing w/ other network devices, like the family room PC, mom's laptop, whatever you like. IOW, I maintain the advantages of my DI-624 router (which doesn't support WDS, so it's not bridgeable), while gaining the advantages of the Belkin router's wireless WDS.
> 
> However you configure it, the "big deal" in this forum regarding the Belkin routers is that they support WDS, can therefore be bridged w/ other Belkin "G" routers (and of course, dedicated Belkin APs), and for a fraction of the cost of buying dedicated APs, game adapters, etc. We're not doing anything here in this forum wrt these Belkin routers that you couldn't accomplish w/ other brand routers, BUT, you would be forced to buy expense, dedicated APs/bridges for this purpose.
> 
> In my case, I've managed to aquire four (4) Belkin F5D7230-4 routers for a maybe $20 or so (after all rebates). No way, no how, can you build an equivalent distributed wireless system w/ the "G" protocol this cheaply EXCEPT w/ the Belkin line. As far as the SVEASOFT, some people are using this primarily to make the mediocre Belkin router, a better router. Since WDS is already supported, it doesn't have much more relevance to this discussion. In the case of Linksys, I believe SVEASOFT has *added* WDS support (don't hold me to that, I don't follow SVEASOFT advancements all that closely). In that case, it would obviously benefit the Linksys crowd, it would make Linksys capable of achieving the same thing, although you still can't beat the Belkin on pricing. Just beware that WDS, even when supported, is typically NOT interoperable across brands.
> 
> I hope that clears up a few things, it's not really as complex once you see it in action, it's a lot harder to explain than actually execute. It's just that not everyone is aware of the WDS/bridging capability built into the Belkin routers, so people usually don't recognize how easy and cheaply they can dramatically improve their wireless network, and in this case, Tivo specifically.
> 
> HTH
> 
> eibgrad


Seeing as this post is from April 2005 I thought I would add something. I didn't read the whole thread so I'm sorry if this has been mentioned:

The Belkin F5D7230-4 version 4000 or version 5000 no longer supports and/or has WDS. Meaning you cannot use it as a bridge. I bought the F5D7230-4 v5000 the other day trying to create a wireless bridge. I could not get it to work. I called Belkin and they told me to buy the F5D7231-4. I had to return the two F5D7230-4 that I bought from Circuit City and buy two F5D7231-4. So if you looking for a router that supports WDS don't buy the F5D7230-4 unless you can find an old version. The F5D7231-4 does the trick and is very easy to set up, but does cost more. Just an FYI.


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## Grimm1

blips said:


> Seeing as this post is from April 2005 I thought I would add something. I didn't read the whole thread so I'm sorry if this has been mentioned:
> 
> The Belkin F5D7230-4 version 4000 or version 5000 no longer supports and/or has WDS. Meaning you cannot use it as a bridge. I bought the F5D7230-4 v5000 the other day trying to create a wireless bridge. I could not get it to work. I called Belkin and they told me to buy the F5D7231-4. I had to return the two F5D7230-4 that I bought from Circuit City and buy two F5D7231-4. So if you looking for a router that supports WDS don't buy the F5D7230-4 unless you can find an old version. The F5D7231-4 does the trick and is very easy to set up, but does cost more. Just an FYI.


I think you can also use the F5D7130 which is supposed to be the same as the F5D7230-4 except that it does not have the router capabilities or 4 ports. But for many people like myself those were not going to be used in this setup anyways. I think they are cheaper then the F5D7231-4 too. When I went to buy the F5D7130 at Fry's I noticed they still had some old versions of the F5D7230-4 and they were on sale for $30 so I ended up getting those instead.


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## ebetzler

I have read through alot of this stuff, but my brain is more scrambled now than when I started.
So to summarize....
Will this setup work?

WRT54G
||
|| (hard-wired)
||
F5D7230-4 

>>>>>>>>wirelessG<<<<<<<<<<

F5D7230-4
|| 
|| (hard-wired) 
|| 
DLINK DUB E-100
||
|| (USB2.0)
|| 
TIVO

(repeat bottom part for any additional TIVOs)

And the 7230's all have to be v3000 or earlier?
Any alternatives? Since all the belkin's I am finding are v4000


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## blips

ebetzler said:


> Any alternatives?


Sure, read this post (it's the one two posts above yours)


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## ebetzler

Will this option work in place of a Belkin 7230 ?

Linksys WRT54GC

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...000050002&type=product&tab=1&id=1108125259730

It costs $60, but for a 2-TIVO house you would need to buy 2 = $120 
versus 3 Belkins @ ~40 = $120
Assuming you already have a router in place with your cable modem.


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## blips

Why don't you just use the Belkin F5D7231-4? It supports WDS. (please note this is not the F5D7230-4)


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## ebetzler

Where is the best deal on one? 
The ones i've seen are 50$, and I would have to buy a minimum of 2
(1 to connect to my WRT54G, and one for my TIVO)
Thats 100$ versus buying 1 linksys WAP for 60$

[EDIT]
I got a sweet deal at CompUSA this week, NetGear WGE111 for 29.99 after rebates.
So I picked up 2 of them, and after some painful setup (painful because the documentation didn't help much and I had to figure out on my own) I have everything running, and MRV works sweet!

Here is my setup:
LivingRoom DTivo --(USB2.0)-- DLink DubE100--(Ethernet)--NetGear WGE111
<<<< Wireless G >>>>>
Linksys WRT54G
<<<< Wireless G >>>>>
BedRoom DTivo --(USB2.0)-- DLink DubE100--(Ethernet)--NetGear WGE111

A hodgepodge of hardware , but everything works!


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## uscpsycho

I have an HR10-250. I zippered it and attached Netgear FA120 USB adapter. I can attach a crossover cable from the USB adapter to my laptop and ping the TiVo with no problem. But I'd like to use a bridge to get wireless connectivity.

I am using a DLINK DWL-G810 bridge and DLINK DI-784 router. At the end of the day, this is probably irrelevant, but maybe someone knows something I don't know about this equipment.

I am using MAC address filtering and have WEP enabled and my SSID is not broadcast. SSID & IP range are not default.

The bridge seems to be working just fine when connected to my laptop. If I turn the wireless radio off on my laptop I can access the Internet and have full network capability through th bridge. I can also ping my laptop from another computer on my network (key).

Now, without making any changes I disconnect the laptop and connect the TiVo. There is no connection. I can't ping the TiVo. When zippering I gave the TiVo and IP address in the correct domain range.

The only thing I can think of is that zipper doesn't ask you for the subnet mask. My network uses 255.255.255.0. I imagine if the TiVo uses something else that could be the source of my problem. Anyone know what the default is and how it can be changed?

Anyone have an idea why I can ping my laptop when it is connected to the bridge, but I can't ping the TiVo?

I consider myself rather network savvy, so I am frustrated!


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## juanian

eibgrad said:


> . . . Heck, they were even selling them at Home Depot, of all places . . .


So here I was, trying to find those elusive, older Belkin routers. I was driving by a Home Depot, and I figured I'd peek in just to see. They had *three* older 7320's (at $40 each). I didn't know the version (since there was no label on the box next to the word Version), but since they were the two-antenna style, I knew they should work. To my surprise, they are version 1444! Now, I think I saw that someone said that they were bridgeable (but I've not gotten the first one I tried to bridge with the v2000 and v3000 that I am currently using successfully -- still plugging away at it).

Thanks for the suggestion eibgrad :up: :up: :up: -- I had feared I'd have to go to a much costlier route since I hadn't been able to find the older Belkins.

The really odd thing -- this Home Depot is brand new (has been open for about 4 months)! What "stockpile" did these v1444's come from???

EDIT: I figured out what my problem was -- the 1444 won't bridge in WPA mode with the 2000 (although the 2000 will bridge with the 3000 in WPA mode).


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## Stormspace

I moved into a new house this past year and wanted to share some of my experience setting up my wireless network...

First of all this house is pre 1950 and though it has been thoroughly renovated and modernized, the walls are the original ones put in during the 1920's or 30's. So, instead of sheet rock walls I have plaster walls. In my area it was common practice to lay up chicken wire or some other type of wire and apply plaster to this surface when making walls. So, it doesn't make for a very friendly wireless environment. 

My network started with all the devices from my previous home. A BEFW11S4 router with high gain antennas and misc 802.11b clients. Our designated computer room just happened to be in a renovated section added on in recent years with sheet rock walls, so this set up allowed for coverage in all but two rooms with spotty coverage in one room.

Thinking I could add an expander, I purchased a WRE54G linksys wireless G expander. I placed it in the kitchen above the microwave inside the cabinet. However I couldn't get it to work with my router. A call to linksys confirmed that they had designed the device to only work with the latest routers, so I purchased a WRT54G router, retired the former router and set up the expander. That set up solved the problems for every room but one, my sons. I could get a signal, but it was intermittent and didn't change if I swapped out ap clients. Also the connection was so slow that it really wasn't worth it and I found him on my computer more times than not. He had basically stopped using his.

Moving the expander didn't solve things, so I purchased a pair of homeplug adapters (GHPB31). These were connected at his PC and at the router. I appeared to be getting about 1mb out of them, but again the performance was bad, really bad and after a few weeks of trying to get it to work I decided to configure my wireless B router in another room as an access point using the homeplug adapters to make the wired connection. 

At this point I had read that houses built before 1950 might have issues with homeplug, so I thought moving the devices closer to each other might solve the problem. It did actually, but the b router for soem reason would just die if alot of data was requested from it. Like playing an MP3 from a server on the network on my sons PC. 

As a last resort I purchased a WAP54G and configured it as a repeater, but some how since I already had the expander on the network it wouldn't function. As a last resort I configured it as an AP Client and hooked it directly to my son's PC. That worked flawlessly as I guess the WAP54G (Which is less expensive than a real client) has better range and sensitivity due to the two antenna. As a test I hooked in to the wireless B router and chained my sons PC off the router, which now was functioning as a wireless B access point and switch. This last gives him wireless converage for all of his other devices, like his Nintendo DS and possibly his xbox later on. 

Anyway, it was a long process but his throughput now is on par with the rest of the wired network and he's happy. Next time I'll go straight for the WAP54G AP's and not spend the money on an expander if I need to move off in one direction.

My Wireless equipment
1 WAP54G
1 WRE54G
1 Silver Orinoco 802.11b AP Client
1 Linksys 802.11b game adapter
2 Linksys 802.11b USB clients
1 Blitzz 802.11b USB client
1 Linksys PCI 802.11b client
1 Blitzz PCMCIA 802.11b adapter

2 GHPB31 homeplug adapters(retired)
1 Netgear 802.11b usb client(retired)


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## smark

Has anyone had any success with connecting a WRT54G wirelessly bridging to the Belkin F5D7230-4 or even the F5D7230-4 wirelessly bridging to the WRT54G? I've been struggling with this.


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## bghmsh

I wired the suckers in {- Mich faster Except for my Tivo II (250GB) out at the Jacuzzi which has a Wireless G connection


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## eibgrad

smark said:


> Has anyone had any success with connecting a WRT54G wirelessly bridging to the Belkin F5D7230-4 or even the F5D7230-4 wirelessly bridging to the WRT54G? I've been struggling with this.


Gee, I thought this thread was long dead. Guess I might as well answer smark, even if it's been well over a year!

You will continue to have troubles (although by now I hope you've given up  ) because Belkin uses a "proprietary" protocol for wireless bridging to other Belkin routers. It's simply not possible to include the WRT54G. Heck, Belkin doesn't even support it across all their own routers, let alone other vendors, only the F5D7230-4 (54g) and F5D7231-4 (108g) may participate. And according to reports, is not supported anymore by Belkin even w/ newer revisions of these models, apparently dumped completely by Belkin a couple years ago.

That's why I've hung onto the 5-6 Belkin routers I gathered way back when. Use 'em all the time to connect almost everything (VOIP adapter, TiVo, PCs). Still continues to work great. Wish I could find more.


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## ellinj

just wanted to mention I have been using netgear powerline adapters instead of my wds setup for a month or two now. it works like a dream. much more reliable then WDS and I am getting similar speeds.


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## eibgrad

ellinj said:


> just wanted to mention I have been using netgear powerline adapters instead of my wds setup for a month or two now. it works like a dream. much more reliable then WDS and I am getting similar speeds.


Interesting. Powerline products have traditionally been very problematic. They've suffered from several nagging problems, like not being usable w/ a UPS or line conditioner (not uncommon w/ HTPC), can't cross circuits (most ppl have several), and overall poor performance (1mbps or less).

It seems manufacturers are always trying to revamp their products and solve these problems, so I'm not sure what the state of this technology is today. But if you find this working for you, that's great news. If you have any details, such as specific products, your config (using a UPS?), etc., that would be interesting to know.


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## ellinj

eibgrad said:


> Interesting. Powerline products have traditionally been very problematic. They've suffered from several nagging problems, like not being usable w/ a UPS or line conditioner (not uncommon w/ HTPC), can't cross circuits (most ppl have several), and overall poor performance (1mbps or less).
> 
> It seems manufacturers are always trying to revamp their products and solve these problems, so I'm not sure what the state of this technology is today. But if you find this working for you, that's great news. If you have any details, such as specific products, your config (using a UPS?), etc., that would be interesting to know.


I am getting about 30Mbps using the Netgear products. They are plugged directly into the wall not through a power strip, which isn't really an issue since you can still plug your equipment into a ups or power strip. the ones I am using have a built in switch so cabling is ultra simple. It definitely seems the latest gen of these products have come a long way.


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## ashu

Rebenchmarked my two-floors-separated Belkin 7230-4s - connected to two WinXp PCs, both directions benched between 19-22 MbPS. I'm happy. And have that spare Belkin in the drawer for when (if?) one of these fail.

Powerline Ethernet sounds interesting, but the investment isn't worth it to me with a working, stable 20+ MbPS (Medium & High at RealTime) setup. Going on what - almost 2 years, now? Maybe when I buy a second HDTV and the inevitable second HiDef TiVo to accompany my S3


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## hitech_rednek

I bought two of the Belkin 7230-4's quite a while ago when the price was right (maybe $12 after rebate) but hadn't gotten around to using them. This week I did, but not for TiVo (yet). I needed to get my son's PC upstairs on the network without a wire running up the stairs - *he* didn't see a problem with that but I didn't like it. So I set one up as an AP (chained off my LinkSys router) and the other as a client. Seems to work well.

Unfortunately the TiVo I'd like to wire to this is at the other end of the second story. I can probably run a cable under the carpet or up through the attic. Or get another Belkin, but it sounds like these are hard to find now. Or, buy the TiVo 11g adapter....

I wanted to voice my thanks for those who pointed out this capability - it does come in handy.


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## ashu

Yay! You're living up to that username 

I have a new N router, for my new Lenovo laptop, and the staggering speeds (60mbps sustained 2-3 floors up) have me intrigued ... how long until a non-compliant-802.11N router with WDS capability comes up on clearance sale? Tempting thought! The MIMO would make it way better than the Belkin setup - although I doubt it'd be more stable (going on 2-3 months without reboots on average, 6-7 total devices connected to 3 'remote' Belkins - yes I pulled in the 'spare' too)


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