# PIN stupidity - can we not turn them off?!



## ptruman

Right, this is my first serious annoyance with the new box - PINs.

Please note that for the purposes of this post and context, I have no children, and everyone in the household is definitely over 18.

I'm happy I can hide the adult channels, as I don't want anything I don't subscribe to, or pay channels, showing up (although I'd still rather just have "Channels You Receive").

I'm happy to enforce a PIN when buying something (in case I accidentally hit "Ok" when I didn't want to etc).

I'm happy there is functionality to allow parents to lock channels. I'm happy there is functionality to require PINs on 12/15/18 rated programs, but seriously, can we not disable them?!

This post on the VM help pages says not...



> A PIN is *always needed* to watch:
> 
> 
> Programmes rated 12, before 8pm
> Programmes rated 15, before 9pm
> Programmes rated 18, before 10pm
> Premium movie channels
> A channel you've chosen to lock
> Any adult channels


(my emphasis on "always needed").

I discovered this when trying to watch recordings of Family Guy and Hustle, which both taped at/after 9pm.

Seriously, it's bl**dy annoying, having to shove in a PIN every time you hit play, and I cannot see any way to disable it?

I have unlocked all channels, but there seems to be no way to turn off the PIN requirement to watch a recording. Hopefully I'm missing something hiding in a deeper menu, but I suspect not....


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## Pine Cladding

Seconded! When my boys were younger I was very greatful to have a pin code, they are now 18 and 20 and the pin code is now not required. We need an option to remove the requirement.


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## Digital Fanatic

This has already been fed back to the TiVo Team


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## jonphil

Digital Fanatic said:


> This has already been fed back to the TiVo Team


Good to hear;

The best solution would be based on age ratings

U - Always Off
PG - On or Off
12 - On or Off

ect

That way if people have teenagers at home they can allow up to a certain age without having to give out the pin that will unlock ALL age ratings.


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## Digital Fanatic

jonphil said:


> Good to hear;
> 
> The best solution would be based on age ratings
> 
> U - Always Off
> PG - On or Off
> 12 - On or Off
> 
> ect
> 
> That way if people have teenagers at home they can allow up to a certain age without having to give out the pin that will unlock ALL age ratings.


I think the idea is to have it the same as V+HD is. so if you recorded it, then it's up to you if it needs to ask for a PIN.


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## ptruman

Some more clarity - it only asks for the PINs if you are watching it at a time earlier in the day than it was recorded. I've just got back and can watch American Dad an hour after it was recorded with no PIN.


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## dmeldrum

Digital Fanatic said:


> I think the idea is to have it the same as V+HD is. so if you recorded it, then it's up to you if it needs to ask for a PIN.


The problem for parents is that with wishlists you may not know that you have recorded it. I think the only solution is to give as many pin options as possible and have the default setup as "safe" as possible, but allow all options to be switched off.


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## Pine Cladding

There is also a problem when watching TV Choice on demand. Say you fancy having an afternoon of Andromeda which is rated PG; you not only have to enter a pin when you watch the first episode but every one, even if watching back to back.

I have a vague memory of a system in place that would not ask for the pin again as long as you didn't change your current action i.e. watching recordings.


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## dmeldrum

ptruman said:


> Some more clarity - it only asks for the PINs if you are watching it at a time earlier in the day than it was recorded.


It's more broken than that. I tried watching the Cricket World Cup live this morning at 9am. It wanted a PIN as the programme began after 10pm - it started at 3.30am.


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## ptruman

dmeldrum said:


> It's more broken than that. I tried watching the Cricket World Cup live this morning at 9am. It wanted a PIN as the programme began after 10pm - it started at 3.30am.


To be fair (even though this PIN thing is highly annoying), anything "late night/early morning" could still be 'less than child friendly'. I suspect the 'reset' time is 6/7am.


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## cwaring

^ It is indeed 6am AFAIK. Certainly on the Sky Movie channels it is.


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## dmeldrum

ptruman said:


> To be fair (even though this PIN thing is highly annoying), anything "late night/early morning" could still be 'less than child friendly'. I suspect the 'reset' time is 6/7am.


The logic programmed in seems to be that anything starting between 10pm and 6am requires a pin, whether watching live or recorded.

Clearly that's not appropriate for sports events that start early and continue into daytime.

The pin system does not identify that a U or PG film shown on sky movies during the day is safe, still insisting on a pin.


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## cwaring

Whilst combing through the Forums (for something that wasn't there, as it happens) I happened to come accross this previous thread on the subject.


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## ptruman

cwaring said:


> Whilst combing through the Forums (for something that wasn't there, as it happens) I happened to come accross this previous thread on the subject.


So, if it was OFCOM who imposed it, why didn't TiVo/Tribune enforce it on the S1?


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## Digital Fanatic

ptruman said:


> So, if it was OFCOM who imposed it, why didn't TiVo/Tribune enforce it on the S1?


Because it's only the platform that needs to have PINS, not 3rd party equipment.

As TiVo on VM is a a combined digibox and PVR, it must have PIN protection.


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## childe

Is the Ofcom requirement that PIN control must be active at all times, or just that there must be an option for PIN control, to be used at the discretion of the account holder?

If the former then Nanny has taken over and we should just give up being responsible for our lives - Nanny will do it for us.

If the latter then how about giving an option to turn PIN control on or off, but restrict access to this option to those with the PIN?


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## Pine Cladding

Sounds a logical solution to me :up:


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## Zaichik

The whole PIN thing is starting to get on my nerves (and my wife's, which is worse! ). Asking for a PIN only based on what time it was broadcast is stupid. They really need to implement proper ratings for the guide data.


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## mikerr

Here's the ofcom document:

section 1.4:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/arch...es_guidance/programme_code/section_1.asp.html



> Where security mechanisms, such as a PIN system or equivalent, satisfactorily restrict access to films or programmes solely to those authorised to view, watershed rules may be waived.


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## Pine Cladding

So the security mechanisms are in place we just need a software switch to allow authorised viewers to turn it off.


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## Buzby

End of first week with TiVo, and the PIN request is now driving me batty....


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## Tony Hoyle

Indeed.. It's ludicrous as it's set now. I actually considered sending the Tivo back at one point.. and that's something I never thought I'd say.

VM already got this right on the V+ box.. all they need to do is do that.


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## Zaichik

I had to enter a PIN to watch CBeebies this morning because TiVo decided it was an unrated channel!


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## cwaring

As is BBC3 _when it's off-air_


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## deesee

cwaring said:


> ^ It is indeed 6am AFAIK. Certainly on the Sky Movie channels it is.


I have been recording late movies on Film 4, on my sky box, which are not at all for kids, and i can watch them anytime of day without using my pin, if sky can do it, why can virgin not do it.


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## passingbat

deesee said:


> I have been recording late movies on Film 4, on my sky box, which are not at all for kids, and i can watch them anytime of day without using my pin, if sky can do it, *why can virgin not do it*.


Virgin can do it ----- on the V+box. I assume it willbe fixed on TIVO.


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## ptruman

Well, my wife has now stated (in a v annoyed fashion) that she almost feels "dirty" having to put in a PIN, like it's something "illicit" she wants to watch.

So far, all the (other) little things I've encountered with the new TiVo are just that, little things - this is the only serious annoyance that bugs me, and the wife (which by proxy annoys me more!) 

It would be nice if VM published a list of 'recognised issues' along with some prioritisation re: which ones are slated to be addressed, and when


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## sjp

wee bit of a bump here, possibly already mentioned in the bugs list but i think this is BST related in this particular instance.

PIN required for Antiques Roadshow at 8PM last night, PIN requested as it was supposedly recorded at 9PM.

just as I was starting to accept the stupidity of having to enter a PIN on the vast majority of shows we record!

and for the Antiques Roadshow, really?


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## pottyboy

i can not understand why there is need to put pin to watch sky movie channels, everytime it stops you flicking through having to enter pin, just take the dame thing off, just like its on sky box never had this problem, am getting fed up to the point of canceling the sky movie channels. if i want to put pin on channels i can do it myself.


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## cwaring

That particular part of the PIN implementation is an OFCOM requirement because of Sky Movies' wanting to start showing films in the daytime that they could then only show after 9pm.

Not sure what the excuse for the other implimentation is


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## Tony Hoyle

The ofcom text is plainly aimed at movies, and specifically quotes 'premium' channels.. so could maybe be extended to Sky One at a push.. but clearly not BBC1.

The Tivo implementation is particularly moronic as it has multiple watersheds so you get things like a pin request for a programme recorded at 10pm.. at 9.30pm. 

The V+ implementation worked well - I never got a pin request that I can remember, as I mostly watch in the evenings anyway and don't subscribe to movie channels. Going back to that would be fine with me.


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## geekspeak

Tony Hoyle said:


> The ofcom text is plainly aimed at movies, and specifically quotes 'premium' channels.. so could maybe be extended to Sky One at a push.. but clearly not BBC1.


It's all so counter productive. I imagine a lot of people will keep the default of 1234 or make it easier with 0000 or 1111 because of having to enter it all the time. And when little Billy asks for the code to watch scooby-doo for the millionth time what parent won't eventually tell them the code whilst busy preparing the chicken dinosaurs?


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## mikerr

Tony Hoyle said:


> The V+ implementation worked well - I never got a pin request that I can remember, as I mostly watch in the evenings anyway and don't subscribe to movie channels. Going back to that would be fine with me.


AIUI the V+ implementation only asks you when watching live, not for recording programmes - certainly rarely see it on V+


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## cwaring

Tony Hoyle said:


> The Tivo implementation is particularly moronic ...


Oh I completely agree. I was simply mentioninng the Sky Movies channels issue as someone brought it up


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## yerksha puddin

geekspeak said:


> It's all so counter productive. I imagine a lot of people will keep the default of 1234 ... because of having to enter it all the time. And when little Billy asks for the code to watch scooby-doo for the millionth time what parent won't eventually tell them the code ... ?


Been there, done that (except it was usually Match Of The Day, not Scooby-doo).


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## kmusgrave

mikerr said:


> AIUI the V+ implementation only asks you when watching live, not for recording programmes - certainly rarely see it on V+


ISTR the TVdrive used to prompt on recordings as well when it first came out, but they changed it after complaints.


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## deshepherd

yerksha puddin said:


> Been there, done that (except it was usually Match Of The Day, not Scooby-doo).


Yes, happened to us after 2 days (TiVo installed friday, son got up at 8am on Sunday to watch the recorded MotD as usual!)

N.b. as I've said before issues may be due to TiVo software being designed for US market where, I think, age and content ratings are required to be available for all programs so may be what were seeing is "fall back" behaviour for the unusual case (in US) where TiVo fails to be informed of the age rating of a program. As UK legislators aren't quite as prescriptive as in the US (or at least don't stand as much chance of getting their "pet project laws" passed) then the problem maybe that no-one ever thought of attaching age ratings to every program on our channels


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## cwaring

That sounds like a reasonable explanation to me.


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## kmusgrave

cwaring said:


> That sounds like a reasonable explanation to me.


Could be. But is still needs changing.


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## cwaring

Indeed. Never said otherwise


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## Brangdon

kmusgrave said:


> Could be. But is still needs changing.


I doubt we'll ever get the ability to disable PIN altogether (the Ofcom page specifically forbids that), but if there's already code in place to make it programme-specific then it would "just" need an improvement to the EPG data. Which I'd like to think is more likely to happen than a software fix.

Presumably YouView will also have to deal with this issue so everyone will need to start providing adult ratings with guide data.


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## deshepherd

Brangdon said:


> I doubt we'll ever get the ability to disable PIN altogether (the Ofcom page specifically forbids that), but if there's already code in place to make it programme-specific then it would "just" need an improvement to the EPG data. Which I'd like to think is more likely to happen than a software fix.
> 
> Presumably YouView will also have to deal with this issue so everyone will need to start providing adult ratings with guide data.


Not necessarily ... depends on what the regulations are. The problem could be that in the UK programs are assumed suitable for everyone unless otherwise stated whereas in the US I think its the other way round (i.e. all programs expected/required to state if they are suitable for children etc). So if UK program data gives no rating statement then that may mean suitable for everyone but TiVo SW designed for the US model interprets this missing data as not saying its suitable for everyone so assumes that it might not be. The UK designed YouView would probably be designed around the UK interpretation of this.


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## Tavis75

I don't think the pin situation on the TiVo (with the latest software) seems any different to the V+HD box I had before. Feels like I have to enter the pin with about the same frequency I did when using the old box (with both of them having the security level turned down to the minimum allowed).

Can't believe OFCOM forbid the disabling of the PIN completely though, almost tempted to complain but don't know who to. Who watches the watchdogs?


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## cwaring

If we all complain to OFCOM then they may listen. But then again, maybe not  I'm sure I set up and online petion about this a while ago but I can't remember if I did or where I did


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## Fixerman

I have a humax freeview pvr and there is just a parental control facility that you can have on or off! It's always off so I never need a pin. 

So where does OFCOM fit in there?


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## cwaring

Fixerman said:


> I have a humax freeview pvr and there is just a parental control facility that you can have on or off! It's always off so I never need a pin. So where does OFCOM fit in there?


They don't. Not sure about the general OFCOM ruling, but the one I know about only applies to Sky Movies; which you can't get on Freesat


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## passingbat

Tavis75 said:


> I don't think the pin situation on the TiVo (with the latest software) seems any different to the V+HD box I had before.


On the V+ box, you could turn the pin off completely for recorded programmes; I've watched 18 rated recorded films in the afternoons without the need for a pin number.

You don't have that option on Tivo

It's not a massive deal for me on tivo as I've set a sequence up on my Harmony remote, so it's just a one press action, but you really should be able to remove pin protection completely if you so wish.


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## Mimizuku no Lew

passingbat said:


> On the V+ box, you could turn the pin off completely for recorded programmes; I've watched 18 rated recorded films in the afternoons without the need for a pin number.


I've still had the V+ ask for a PIN to watch some films recorded from Sky Movies though, even with the option set to not ask for a PIN to watch recordings.


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## cwaring

That will be the OFCOM requirement for those channels then, I guess.


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## Brangdon

Tavis75 said:


> Can't believe OFCOM forbid the disabling of the PIN completely though


This may be the passage used to justify it:1.24 Premium subscription film services may broadcast up to BBFC 15-rated films or their equivalent, at any time of day provided that mandatory restricted access is in place pre-2000 and post-0530. 
[...]
Mandatory restricted access means there is a PIN protected system (or other equivalent protection) which cannot be removed by the user, that restricts access solely to those authorised to view.​
From Ofcom Broadcast Code. It's probably true that if it can be disabled, over 50% of households will disable it, whether or not they have children in the home.


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## Meng

I don't know about OFCOM rulings or anything, but I never had all these PIN issues with my Sky box ... and my viewing habits haven't changed.

Something ain't right.


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## Fixerman

Meng said:


> I don't know about OFCOM rulings or anything, but I never had all these PIN issues with my Sky box ... and my viewing habits haven't changed.
> 
> Something ain't right.


I agree. Lets all lobby VM until we get a solution!


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## TCM2007

Bonkers OfCOM rule - why make it not removable by user?


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## mike0151

In the past I have never had to use a PIN to watch Mythbusters or Wheeler Dealers. I am totally fed up with having to enter one now. Especially so since I live alone and am definitely over the age of 21


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## SPR

Is the pin attached to the recording?
I sometimes have to put the original pin 1234 instead of my changed 1111.
There was a reset recently I know, but today I have had to use both numbers.

I was also once asked to put a pin in because of a 15 rating!
Not an issue to me, but that would mean 15-17 year old either would need to have a pin put in for them, or be "trusted" to not abuse the pin.


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## jonphil

SPR said:


> or be "trusted" to not abuse the pin.


This is the point that Virgin are completely ignoring / overlooking.


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## SPR

I'm not sure TiVo/VM are forcing people to enter a pin because of when it was recorded because of OFCOM.

Surely the OFCOM Codes & Guidance only applies to broadcasts?

If I (or my recorder) switches to a channel at a time that doesn't require a pin, then any recording may be watched whenever.

Putting any moral or personal dilemma aside that may occur because of this, this is how I interpret their rules.

i.e. I believe that OFCOM only govern broadcast, not when a recording can be played back.


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## sjp

i think they've realised that they're being a little heavy handed with their PIN-ing and are planning to scale it back a bit and hopefully the GMT/BST i don't know when it's 20:00 bug will also be sorted on the next release.


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## jethrouk

Zaichik said:


> I had to enter a PIN to watch CBeebies this morning because TiVo decided it was an unrated channel!


Could it have been the new adult version "C-Boobies" 

Someone suggested changing pin to 1111 and quite honestly i dont even consider typing pin occasionally an issues

.


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## cwaring

jethrouk said:


> Someone suggested changing pin to 1111 and quite honestly i dont even consider typing pin occasionally an issue


I wouldn't either, if it *was* only "occasionally", but a lot of my fave shows are shown after, but watched before, 9pm; which means I have to enter a PIN *at least* twice a day; and that's asuming I don't stop the programme for whatever reason and have too enter it again when I go back to it


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## SPR

So, I often have to enter a pin for innocuous stuff, but Photo Gallery is quite happy to choose a pair of breasts for me to view


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## mikerr

SPR said:


> So, I often have to enter a pin for innocuous stuff, but Photo Gallery is quite happy to choose a pair of breasts for me to view


Yes, that made me giggle too.


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## cwaring

Hmmm.... maybe I should check out this photo gallery


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