# Every other DVR tells you how much free space is available, why doesn't Tivo?



## Jay M

Are the Tivo gods just stubborn? Hasn't this been suggested a million times? It's usually suggested by someone who has owned another DVR.

I would suggest a usage bar that is two or three colors

first color: space that your recordings occupy
second color: space that suggested recordings occupy
third color: free space.

If Tivo built a car would it have a gas gauge? Technically the data a gas gauge provides can be very misleading because of the difference between city and highway MPG. But I still look at it from time to time.

~Jay


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## mindchaotica

maybe they thought it would make for a good drinking game? you know. 1 shot if you have 20 hrs, 2 shots if you have 40, and 4 if you have 80... and so on. oh and you don't have drink anything if you lose your channel listings.


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## socrplyr

Tivo thinks they are superior and are attempting to break us of our need to look at worthless tools.

Seriously, I don't know why Tivo hasn't just given in on this request as it is relatively simple to do and won't really hurt anything. On the flip side the number is meaningless, because at default settings the Tivo will never miss a recording due to space. It will just delete the oldest one it has first. Now whether or not you had time to watch it before it gets deleted is another issue. So with this behavior there is no real measure of free space as things will automatically be deleted. I guess then free space is defined as anything that isn't marked keep until I delete. Now as for my own usage I used to be crazy about it an didn't want it to delete anything by itself (even worthless Tivo suggestions). I have now relaxed myself and to be honest I don't feel like I have to constantly turn on the TV now to see what the Tivo might have recorded to make sure it doesn't delete a show that there is a 1/10000 chance I will actually watch. Meh, in the end it doesn't matter either way but I guess it is fun to get into discussions about.


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## Jay M

The problem with deleting the old stuff first is that it's not necessarily the least important.

It's very easy for me to decide what to delete after it's been recorded. I will only delete it if I need more space.

On the other hand setting up rules and priorities before a recording is very difficult to do, and would be pointless if I knew I had enough space to keep it.

My question to the Tivo gods - How would adding this feature ruin the Tivo experience?

~Jay


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## gsspeace

I gather it's useless to add my voice in support of this suggestion. So, what's to be done?
Gloria


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## magnus

There's so many other important things that Tivo could do with their development efforts. I would really like to see cooperative scheduling.


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## jbcooley

gsspeace said:


> I gather it's useless to add my voice in support of this suggestion. So, what's to be done?
> Gloria


This app doesn't get much attention since it's only a sample app, but you could run the tivo disk usage app on your computer to get an estimate of free space displayed on your tivo.

Note that it just estimates the amount of free space by recording the largest ever recording space used and displaying the difference between that and the current amount used.

Download here


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## Turtleboy

My Tivo is full 100&#37; of the time.

Old recordings are always being deleted.


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## lrhorer

gsspeace said:


> I gather it's useless to add my voice in support of this suggestion. So, what's to be done?
> Gloria


IMO, the best thing to be done, is stop thinking of the TiVo as if it were other DVRs. It isn't. Then stop thinking of empty drive space as a precious resource. It isn't. If your TiVo is not essentially 100% full almost all the time, then you are wasting some of its potential. A 100% full Tivo is a happy TiVo with what should be a happy owner, not a worried one. If it isn't 100% full, then there also is no real need to worry, as it will eventually get there.

I really don't want to go into a long dissertation on this topic again at this time, but the bottom line is an effective Tivo user does not think of his TiVo hard drive in terms of the amount of "free space" - an extremely nebulous and variable concept on the TiVo in the first place - but in terms of number of days of total capacity after subtracting out the KUID usage, which is not under management by the TiVo.

How does this help?

It helps because the user, knowing the minimum number of days a program will stay on the TiVo before being deleted, can simply sort the NPL by date (with groups off) and see if any of the programs nearing the deletion age are ones he needs to take into consideration. Thus, I know all my TiVos have large enough hard drives to allow any of the programs - no matter how they were recorded - to easily stay at least 4 weeks before being in danger of being deleted. So every 2 or 3 weeks I can fire up the NPL, turning off groups and sorting by date, and look for any "important" non-KUID programs which are more than 2 weeks old or so. I can then either transfer them to the video server, make a note to watch them in the next week or so, or make them KUID until I get the chance to watch them*. If your TiVo drive is too small to hold your average recording volume for more than 2 weeks, then you need to upgrade your TiVo drive. With 1TB drives selling for under $130, there's really no excuse for having too small a hard drive.

*Actually, I say I can do this. In practice I don't ever bother. I already know I will have watched any "important" programs within 4 weeks, so in reality I don't even need to check. If I were truly concerned about it, however, I could take a few minutes every 2 or 3 weeks to check on the oldest programs.


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## lrhorer

Jay M said:


> The problem with deleting the old stuff first is that it's not necessarily the least important.


A "free space" meter won't help determine how important a program is, either. Unless one has either truly erratic viewing habits or a hard drive that is pathetically undersized, the relative "importance" of a video and its age should normally be managed automatically by one's viewing habits. That is to say, if it is "important" then why has it taken the user so long to watch it? Now of course there can be any number of perfectly valid answers to the question for specific cases, but those specific cases can be handled by simply setting the program to KUID. That way it will never be deleted until the user says so. That, or one can offload the video onto an external PC for longer term storage. While I don't personally recommend setting KUID indiscriminently, if one's hard drive is anywhere nearly large enough then the odd case where an old program is both important and not watched should be a fairly unusual exception. The salient point, however, is that no matter what, a "free space" indicator will not tell the user an important program is about to be deleted. That can only be determined by sorting the NPL by date, and having done so one does not need the "free space" indicator to determine the program is or is not in danger of being deleted. The age alone is sufficient.



Jay M said:


> It's very easy for me to decide what to delete after it's been recorded. I will only delete it if I need more space.


You are wasting your time. The only good reason to delete something is that you have already watched it and do not wish to watch it again. It's not even particularly useful to delete a "bad" suggestion, although you should definitely give it a Thumbs-Down. If it is *really* bad, and it gives you some sort of virtuous satisfaction to delete the nasty thing, well, then go ahead, but the Tivo will delete it soon enough. Anything else will be automatically deleted by the TiVo without your having to lift a finger. You paid good money for the little elf sitting inside your TiVo. Let him do his job, so you can worry about more important things.



Jay M said:


> On the other hand setting up rules and priorities before a recording is very difficult to do, and would be pointless if I knew I had enough space to keep it.


No, it isn't. Or rather, setting the defaults is generally more than sufficient, assuming the original default settings are inappropriate. Your fixation with the (very poor) notion of "free space" is causing you to make things more difficult for yourself. The amount of "free space", however that might be determined, is unimportant. The total hard drive space expressed in number of days of recordings is what is important (and simple) and cannot be measured by a "free space" indicator.



Jay M said:


> My question to the Tivo gods - How would adding this feature ruin the Tivo experience?


It wouldn't ruin it, I don't think, but attempting to use it most certainly would take unnecessary resources and require unnecessary intervention on the part of the user to accomplish something far more easily accomplished with the utilities already available. Determining a proper metric for "free space" is difficult, and once established, doesn't really tell the user anytyhing he should want to know. The answer to "how much free space is on the Tivo?" should always be, "Zero". If not, then you aren't making the best use of your TiVo, and having a "free space" meter won't help that.


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## lrhorer

Jay M said:


> It's usually suggested by someone who has owned another DVR.


Because users of other DVRs often develop bad habits necessitated by their use of crappy DVRs.



Jay M said:


> If Tivo built a car would it have a gas gauge?


The TiVo's hard drive is nothing like the gas tank of an automobile. If you designed an automobile whose gas tank was always full, would you bother installing a gas gauge? On an automobile, a gas tank nearing empty requires some major consideration on the part of the driver, or else there's going to be trouble. If the TiVo's hard drive is nearly empty, the TiVo is of little use at the moment, and the user might be well suited to take steps to have the TiVo start filling the drive, but such a situation does not require a "free space" indicator to notify the user, and although the Tivo in such a state is of little use, it doesn't speak of any impending failure. At the other end of the spectrum, a full gas tank represents a maximally useable vehicle, and while a full hard drive represents a maximally useable TiVo, unlike the automobile, the Tivo is perfectly capable of filling up its own hard drive with out ceasing operations.

Logically, the TiVo is much more like an overflowing spring-fed cistern than an automobile. New material is constantly fed into the system and old material constantly exits the system. Being full is a continuous, normal state of operations.

The most effective, efficient, and desirable state for a TiVo is for its drive to be completely full. Otherwise, there are programs the user could have available for viewing, but does not. This, regardless of how the "free space" was obtained.



Jay M said:


> Technically the data a gas gauge provides can be very misleading because of the difference between city and highway MPG. But I still look at it from time to time.


Yes, but if the car's gas tank is nearing empty, the gauge tells the driver very specifically that he must take steps to rectify the situation. With the TiVo, the FSI tells the user nothing useful at all.


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## westside_guy

Yeah, I'm not sure of the utility of this either. Unlike other DVRs, with Tivo you don't have to worry about running out of room. If you're worried about the order in which things are deleted, you can always flag those "important" recordings as "keep until I delete".

If you're really concerned, you could treat the number of recordings sitting in the "Recently Deleted" folder as an ersatz disk space indicator - if there are a lot of shows in there, your disk isn't anywhere near full. If there are only a couple, then you're probably close to full.


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## jbcooley

I certainly don't managed free space since it's unnecessary as you described. But people regularly ask for this feature. In my opinion, it's better for people to learn how to use their tivo on their own than tell them they are wrong. Either way, I hope those asking the original question are able to get the most out of their tivo.


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## Jay M

I have had a tivo for 16 months, before that I had a Motorola DVR for 2 years, before that I had a Dishplayer for 5 years.

Tivo constatly does something that the other two never did- delete shows when I didn't expect it to.

My guess is that some of you have never had anything other than a Tivo so you can't even fathom how useful a usage meter is.

It is very easy to start deleting stuff if you know the machine is about to do it for you. The machine has no idea what of the things I have asked it to record that I might be able to live without. there is no way to set up rules either because I might change my mind about what's important.

I can't imagine a usage meter taking more than a day to add. If the Tivo programmers can't figure it out maybe they can hire someone from Dish, Direct, Motorola, Microsoft, or sony and let them do it.

I would venture to guess that this feature is the most requested, and has been for many years.

I have never heard an official statement form Tivo about why they choose to thumb their nose at so many subscribers. 

Do any of you know of any posted response from Tivo and this feature request?

~Jay


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## magnus

I believe they won't add it for 2 reasons:

1) There are other more important items to be done. 

2) If they added the meter, it is likely that someone will complain that they added a new drive and expected X hours and only got Y hours. 

Or why did the Tivo delete X recording, I still had Y hours left?


I think if it's that easy and is needed so badly that YOU could add the functionality. 

You do realize that there is a deleted items folder that you can undelete from?


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## Jay M

The deleted items folder only holds things for a short time. 

I still think there is no good reason to exclude a usage meter.

~Jay


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## SeanC

Jay M said:


> The deleted items folder only holds things for a short time.


My Deleted Items holds items indefinitely (well, until it needs the space anyway).


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## nirisahn

I use my Deleted Items folder as a free space indicator. If there are 50 programs in my folder, I have room for approximately that many new recordings. I don't generally use my TiVo for long term storage. I'm a watch and delete person. If I want to keep something for a long time I offload it to my computer.

I've noticed that if I look at the info for a show, it tells me how much space and what &#37; of the hard drive's space that show takes. Don't know if that helps anyone.

I had Dish for a while, and I've had TiVo since 2000. I don't really miss the free space indicator.


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## WayneCarter

Jay M said:


> It is very easy to start deleting stuff if you know the machine is about to do it for you.


If "Suggestions" and "Recently Deleted" are both zero, TiVo is about to delete some stuff for you (the deletions will occur before each recording to make space for it).



> The machine has no idea what of the things I have asked it to record that I might be able to live without. there is no way to set up rules either because I might change my mind about what's important.


So tell it (by setting KUID for the "important" items). Just remember to tell it when you're finished with each item by clearing its KUID or deleting the item manually.



> I can't imagine a usage meter taking more than a day to add. If the Tivo programmers can't figure it out maybe they can hire someone from Dish, Direct, Motorola, Microsoft, or sony and let them do it.


Producing a "Free space" indicator might be easy, designing one that will be seen as "reasonable" by most users could be much harder.


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## magnus

And I still think there is no good reason to include one.



Jay M said:


> The deleted items folder only holds things for a short time.
> 
> I still think there is no good reason to exclude a usage meter.
> 
> ~Jay


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## f0gax

What I find most entertaining is that even though the arguments for and against are _well documented_ on this forum, the topic continues to come up week after week.

Some of the better thread-wars on the subject are probably in the Archive by now, as this argument was already in full-swing in 2002 when I came onto TCF the first time.

What I have taken away from the discussion is that while it would be nice, from a planning perspective, to know the number of hours currently (at this very discrete point in time) available for recordings, it is ultimately of very little use. The FSI, as most requestors envision it, would let you know if you could record that 3.5 hour football game _right now_ without anything being deleted. What it won't tell you is if there will be enough space to record the game next Sunday.

I think the problem is that we see our Tivos as computers. And while they are computers at their most basic level, they are not used like computers. Think about how much the data on your PC changes; 1% a day, if that? If you're a heavy downloader maybe 5% a day.

But, a "well used" Tivo (as outlined further up the thread) might have 20% to 100% of it's data changed out daily; at the very least weekly. Which means that as a tool to forecast future recording capability an FSI would be nearly useless. Toss in HD vs SD, and Tivo's variable record qualities knowing that you have X Hours/MB/GB Till Full can't really tell you anything that you can't already infer from the little number next to either Suggestions and/or Deleted Items in the NPL.


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## lew

I agree with the previous posters, some people wouldn't be happy when if an empty tivo doesn't show the promised capacity. A free space indicator would make it clear that the real capacity of a tivo is less then the claimed capacity. I suspect that's the main reason. 

Some of the "regular" posters don't see the benefit of a "free space meter". Many of the regular posters have substantially upgraded the capacity of their units and aren't in danger of running out of space. Many of the regular posters use suggestions. I have more then enough shows to watch via recordings I set up and automatic wishlists. I don't have a need for suggestions.

At lease some of the older DTivos had took a huge performance hit if you let shows fill more then 80-85% of the capacity.

The recently deleted folder can serve as a free space indictor.

Some "regulars" don't understand why anyone might use a free space indicator.

Assume a low capacity tivo (20 hour HD limit). Assume a non-tech saavy spouse has recorded 5 hours each of a few daytime shows (Oprah, Rachel Ray...) A free space indictor is a good way to "prove" the need to watch and delete (or just delete) some shows. An older show, with a good guest, may be more important then a newer show with bad guests. A show that may be available on a cable system VoD or could be viewed on a PC (network website) could be deleted, even if that show was just recorded. Tivo would just delete the oldest show.

We all know marking shows as KUD is the worst solution, it assumes shows will never get deleted and will prevent shows from recording.

I can "work around" the lack of a free space meter, particularly with upgraded units, but it's a feature that has some uses.


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## WayneCarter

What (specifically) do you consider "free space"?
- Space not occupied by programs which have not been deleted?
- Space not occupied by programs currently within their KU date?
- Space not occupied by programs or committed to programs scheduled to be recorded?
- ...
- Should "Suggestions" be included as well?
- If space committed to upcoming shows is to be considered, how far in advance should "free space" be considered?


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## lew

WayneCarter said:


> What (specifically) do you consider "free space"?
> - Space not occupied by programs which have not been deleted?
> - Space not occupied by programs currently within their KU date?
> - Space not occupied by programs or committed to programs scheduled to be recorded?
> - ...
> - Should "Suggestions" be included as well?
> - If space committed to upcoming shows is to be considered, how far in advance should "free space" be considered?


There are a variety of third party programs, that display tivo free space on a PC (tivo must be networked). Some of them display a pie chart that shows how much disk space is being occupied by suggestions, programs that haven't been deleted and (I think) programs that are marked KUD. That's probably the best way to do it.

Space committed to upcoming shows would take more programming. I guess a warning that your tivo will be full in X days might be of some use. A perfect world give us two numbers, one assuming tivo only deletes suggestions and a second number assuming tivo deletes shows that aren't KUD and can be deleted as per the save until date. The first option would be useful before going on vacation. Is there enough room to save all my shows? The second number gives some idea if you'll have enough space during "normal" useage; viewing a show within a day or so of recording.

I suspect TCF members are more likely then most tivo customers to upgrade their units and are less likely to be concerned with running out of space. It's pretty easy to fill a 20 hour (HD) DVR in the course of a week or so, particularly if more then one person is using the unit.

FiOS offers an option that lets you view shows on non DVR STB. JMO but that feature makes little sense *until/unless* Verizon allows for hard drive upgrades. The box has an eSATA port.


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## lrhorer

f0gax said:


> What I have taken away from the discussion is that while it would be nice, from a planning perspective, to know the number of hours currently


The main point is, why plan anything? It serves no purpose except to waste time. The Tivo is far more capable of "planning" the recording schedule than any human, and its ability to plan and manage the video catalog is one of the main reasons to buy a TiVo.



f0gax said:


> The FSI, as most requestors envision it, would let you know if you could record that 3.5 hour football game _right now_ without anything being deleted.


The answer to that questions is always, "No", or should be. Generally speaking, if there is room on the TiVo to record something without deleting anything then the TiVo is being underutilized. The question in and of itself is irrelevant, however. The question of significance is, "Can the TiVo record something new for me to watch?" The answer to that is always, "Yes".



f0gax said:


> I think the problem is that we see our Tivos as computers. And while they are computers at their most basic level, they are not used like computers. Think about how much the data on your PC changes; 1% a day, if that? If you're a heavy downloader maybe 5% a day.


Unless they are brand new, few computers change their data by 5% a month, let alone 5% per day. Your point is valid, it's just the magnitude of your numbers that are off. To put it a different way, the data files on a PC are expected to be somewhat static in presence, but perhaps not in content. Thus, while there are certainly some files which are placed on the hard drive for a time and then are removed under the direction of the user, such files are definitely the exception rather than the norm on most PCs. Often the data file will undergo frequent modifications, but they are only removed on a fairly limited basis. A DVR is completely diffeent, however. On a DVR, for the most part EVERY data file is only intended to be temporary, and is expected to be deleted after a moderately short period of time. They are never modified.



f0gax said:


> But, a "well used" Tivo (as outlined further up the thread) might have 20% to 100% of it's data changed out daily; at the very least weekly.


Any TiVo suffering that level of turn-over has far, far too small a hard drive. I personally recommend no higher than 6%, preferably less than 3%.



f0gax said:


> Which means that as a tool to forecast future recording capability an FSI would be nearly useless.


It's useless pretty much regardless of the rate of turn-over. The FSI does not create available time in which to watch the recordings. Regardless of the user's habits or inclination, if the drive is full, something is going to have to be deleted, period. Now the user can get all hot and bothered about exactly what will be deleted, spending time and effort to make sure it isn't something "important", or they can see to it their hard drive system is large enough to essentially guarantee any important recording will be watched, copied, or KUID protected before it gets deleted.


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## lrhorer

Jay M said:


> Tivo constatly does something that the other two never did- delete shows when I didn't expect it to.


Then no offense, but you aren't paying attention. If you want to know whether a program is about to be deleted, go the the NPL, turn off groups, and sort by date:










As anyone can clearly see, the scheduled recording most in jeopardy of being deleted is a Who's the Boss? episode. Look closely: *IT'S NEARLY A YEAR OLD.* The other 150 or so scheduled recordings on this box are of course less than a year old. This TiVo is not a particularly large one. It only has 1T of storage. It is by far my most active TiVo in terms of the number of programs being recorded and deleted. The 5 KUID programs are of course not in jeopardy of being deleted, even though they are from April...*2007!*










Of course, the oldest Suggestions are much younger than any of the scheduled recordings, but then there are only 80 of them.



Jay M said:


> My guess is that some of you have never had anything other than a Tivo so you can't even fathom how useful a usage meter is.


I've used quite a few, including one long, excruciating nine month period of being forced to use a Scientific Atlanta 8300HD. It was a piece of $#!%, one reason among many being it needed a free space indicator.



Jay M said:


> It is very easy to start deleting stuff if you know the machine is about to do it for you.


How is it easier than letting the machine do it for you?



Jay M said:


> The machine has no idea what of the things I have asked it to record that I might be able to live without. there is no way to set up rules either because I might change my mind about what's important.


You are completely ignoring the fact I have already pointed out that a "Free Space" indicator does not help one to determine these things, nor to tell the user *which* recordings are about to be deleted. It is not efficient use of the Tivo to simply delete programs when it is unnecessary. It wastes the user's time and eliminates programs he might otherwise have an opportunity and inclination to watch. Scanning the date-sorted NPL *does* allow the user to detemine these things, without bothering with trying to figure out how they relate to "free space".



Jay M said:


> I can't imagine a usage meter taking more than a day to add.


The amount of time it would take is not the issue. The fact it would be pointless is.



Jay M said:


> I would venture to guess that this feature is the most requested, and has been for many years.


People often ask for things they should not want in the first place.



Jay M said:


> Do any of you know of any posted response from Tivo and this feature request?


TiVo never responds in print to any feature request. We find out they have decided to implement a requested feature when the software release containing it is rolled out.


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## lew

lrhorer said:


> Then no offense, but you aren't paying attention. If you want to know whether a program is about to be deleted, go the the NPL, turn off groups, and sort by date:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As anyone can clearly see, the scheduled recording most in jeopardy of being deleted is a Who's the Boss? episode. Look closely: *IT'S NEARLY A YEAR OLD.* ..... This TiVo is not a particularly large one. *It only has 1T of storage. * It is by far my most active TiVo in terms of the number of programs being recorded and deleted.


I must be missing something. You sorted by date. Why isn't the 1/22 episode of Who's the Boss on top?

You have 1 T of storage and you say it's not particularly large. I assume your tongue is planted in your cheek. Tivo only has one model that's available with 1T of storage and that's a relatively new model. A DVR expander with a TivoHD or S3 doesn't give you 1T of storage. A lot of customers aren't interested in opening their units.

People with upgraded drives, which is a significant number of TTF members, aren't qualified to comment on a feature that primarily benefits (for the reasons you list) users with stock units.


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## Brad Bishop

Turtleboy said:


> My Tivo is full 100% of the time.
> 
> Old recordings are always being deleted.


yeah - I don't get why people don't get this.

What benefit would 'free space left' get you?

This is a bit like having a digital temperature readout on your dash. OK, it's technically possible but if you're cold, turn the heat up, and if you're hot, turn the A/C on. Are you going to be 'hot' if the digital readout says 73F instead of 72F (meaning you're not feeling hot but decide that 73 is not 72 so you must be hot)? No, the readout doesn't mean anything. Maybe it's technically correct but, practically speaking, you're either ok, hot, or cold and you can adjust the controls accordingly.

Now, getting back to TiVo. It'll tell you if you're recording too much stuff in too short of a period to where you're recordings would be deleted before the 2-day period. If you knew the amount of space left what would it tell you? 12GB free of 250GB - it technically means something but practically it doesn't. If you don't have any recording set for the next month then nothing changes. The old stuff is going to roll-off anyway if you don't watch it and you can change it to 'keep until I delete' anyway.

Let's say there is an indicator and it says 12GB free. Are you then going to go out and find what you think is 12GB worth of TV recording and try to fill it up? Are you going no record something because you 'only have 12GB free'? (then that 12GB is kind of a waste).

12GB means something on a PC because, as you install stuff or work with data your real space continues to shrink. TiVo is just a fancy queue. Freeing up a bunch of space on it doesn't change it.


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## ontheway

When I first got my Tivo I was in favor of a free space indicator. I think the thing to remember is that new users (I still consider myself one, having only had my TIVOHD for 1 year) don't completely understand how Tivo works in relation to space manangement. I have seen many posts explaining this process either completely or partially, but my comfort level with allowing Tivo to delete programs is still not high. I think for a lot of people first hand experience trumps others' suggestions.

I have a 1 TB drive and don't record suggestions so space is not an issue for me, but if I did it would take me a bit of time through observation to see how Tivo deletes items when space is needed. Until that happens I would not completely "trust" Tivo to not delete what I don't want to have deleted.

After seeing this functionality first hand I no doubt would as many of you have relax and let the Tivo to its job whilst I do the miminal necessary to protect the shows I really want to keep.

In fact I think I will turn on auto recording of suggestions and get to know my Tivo better. I am not sure if there is a sticky somwhere on this site that concisely shows how Tivo manages space, but such an item would be a helpful reference point for new users I think.


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## lrhorer

lew said:


> I must be missing something. You sorted by date. Why isn't the 1/22 episode of Who's the Boss on top?


TiVo sorts by date in ascending order grouped by recording type. Thus, the oldest scheduled recording is at the bottom of the scheduled list. Below the scheduled list is the list of KUID programs (see the green circle?) sorted in the same way, with the youngest at the top and the oldest at the bottom. Below the KUID programs are the Suggestion, also sorted newest first.



lew said:


> You have 1 T of storage and you say it's not particularly large. I assume your tongue is planted in your cheek.


Not at all. This particular TiVo is the first one I purchased, an S3 with a 250G internal drive and a 750G external drive. The second S3 I purchased has a 1T internal drive and a 1T external drive, making it twice the size. I don't know whether anyone has reliably broken the 2.5G limit, yet, but I expect it to be done soon, if not already. And yes, I consider a Tivo with less than half the storage of some other TiVos to be "not particularly large".



lew said:


> Tivo only has one model that's available with 1T of storage and that's a relatively new model.


New model or not, it's available. More to the point, however, Weaknees and DVRUpgrade have been selling 1T TiVos, both S3 and THD models, for over 2 years.



lew said:


> A DVR expander with a TivoHD or S3 doesn't give you 1T of storage. A lot of customers aren't interested in opening their units.


The DVR Expander is not necessary with an S3 TiVo. Almost any external drive will work with a stock S3 right out of the box, giving one up to 1.25T (I haven't heard whether any of the 1.5T drives will work with S3s, or not). It's true if it's a THD, it must be opened to add any drive other than the DVR Expander, but once again Weaknees or DVRUpgrade will be happy to upgrade your unit for you for a fee. Even a stock THD with a 500G DVR Expander will give one 660G, which for many people is far more than plenty. Most users should be able to get at least a 4 or 5 week buffer - perhaps much more - from a 660G Tivo. After all, my oldest recordings on a 1T are a year old, remember? Those who need more I suspect are the very ones who won't blanche at opening their TiVo, or else paying someone else to do so.



lew said:


> People with upgraded drives, which is a significant number of TTF members, aren't qualified to comment on a feature that primarily benefits (for the reasons you list) users with stock units.


Nonsense. That's like saying someone who has already tried the lobster at a restaurant are not qualified to advise others who have not tried it to do so and forget about the hamburger. What's more, no matter how small or large the drive, an FSI doesn't tell the user what he needs to know, which is the point. If the drive is too small, it needs to be upgraded, the existence of an FSI notwithstanding. An FSI does not make up for an insufficiently sized drive, nor does it make managing a smaller drive any easier. At best it's a placebo, rather like the unmedicated pills in a birth control ring dispenser, reminding the user to do something else in a timely fashion.


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## lrhorer

ontheway said:


> In fact I think I will turn on auto recording of suggestions and get to know my Tivo better.


An excellent idea. Be sure to hit some number of thumbs-up on any recording you like and some number of thumbs-down on any recording you do not (even if you do not watch it). Don't worry excessively about why you like or dislike it. The TiVo is fairly good at realizing what it means that you hit thumbs-down on every Richard Gere movie, and thumbs-up on every romantic comedy other than Runaway Bride and Pretty Woman, for example. Give it a few weeks, and be mildly dilligent about rating your programs. For a bit more insight into the selection algorythm, take a look at the "similar programs" list on the Info screen or in swivel search for a variety of programs.



lew said:


> I am not sure if there is a sticky somwhere on this site that concisely shows how Tivo manages space, but such an item would be a helpful reference point for new users I think.


'Not a sticky, I don't think, no. It's fairly simple, however:

1. Deleted programs are wiped first.
2. Next, suggestions, oldest first.
3. Next, if the new program is a scheduled program, the oldest expired scheduled programs will be deleted. Expired or not, no scheduled program is ever deleted to record a suggestion.

That's it. No KUID is ever automatically deleted, and no unexpired scheduled recording is ever autonomously deleted. If a new manual recording is requested and the TiVo calculates it will need to erase an unexpired recording to get the job done, it will first ask the user to determine the correct action. One can promote the priority of any program by changing its Keep Until... setting, regardless of whether it was originally a suggestion, manual recording, or scheduled recording.


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## ontheway

Thanks for the advice Lrhorer.


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## NowPlaying

TiVo does have a free space indicator, it is the suggestions folder. Turn on suggestions and let the folder fill up. The number of shows in the folder gives you an idea of how much space you have remaining. When you start running out of suggestions it means you are running out of space. I've never felt the need for any other kind of gauge.


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## ontheway

NowPlaying said:


> TiVo does have a free space indicator, it is the suggestions folder. Turn on suggestions and let the folder fill up. The number of shows in the folder gives you an idea of how much space you have remaining. When you start running out of suggestions it means you are running out of space. I've never felt the need for any other kind of gauge.


Doesn't the Recently Deleted folder also factor into free space, or are items not deleted from there if you need space for a new recording? I just turned suggestions on so don't have a lot in there yet but have 200 items in the deleted folder. Will Tivo delete items from the Deleted folder to record a suggestion?


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## classicsat

RD is considered free space. It is intended as kind of as a place to recover accidentally deleted programs. RD programs will be deleted to record Suggestions.


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## lrhorer

That's right. Space-wise, you have - roughly speaking - traded your RD folder for the Suggestions. The one down side is now you may have much less time to undelete a program than before, but I virtually have never gone back three or four days after deleting a program to try to undelete it. I love the feature, but heretofore I have only used it when I delete a program and more or less instantly realize, "Oh, crap! I shouldn't have done that!". I'm embarrassed to admit how many times I've done that, however.


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## muerte33

Vote for this feature here:
http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/
Look under miscellaneous Features.


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## megory

ROFL!! I forgot the TC "If _I_ don't want it, anyone who _does _want it is wrong (and maybe they should be shot)" mindset <vbg>.

To me, it is not written in stone what a human should have or is permitted to have, but there are different preferences and styles.

In my belief system, it could serve TiVo well to provide options, such as a usage meter or a viewer screen accessible while doing other tasks. When these are provided, then the TiVoers who do not want these features, can either turn them off or choose not to use them. Just like the 90% of TiVo's added on "services" that I don't use. I figure, if YOU like them and want them -- GO for it. I'm glad you're happy.


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## lrhorer

megory said:


> ROFL!! I forgot the TC "If _I_ don't want it, anyone who _does _want it is wrong (and maybe they should be shot)" mindset <vbg>.


That's just nonsense. As with any manufacturer of a technological device, TiVo must try to determine what their customers need, what they want, and what they think they want. Providing the first item is essential. Providing the second represents a level of added value. Providing the third is foolish in the extreme.

I'll give you an example we had to handle just last week. We have a customer who has a long haul service that is having trouble. We analyzed their trouble and told them the fix would involve simply purchasing additional bandwidth, to the tune of $500 or $600 a month and adding a $5000 router to the far end site. The office in question is chock full of seven and eight figure executives, and $600 a month is a pittance. Some executive / wannabe engineer heard the buzzword "COS", and decided it would do the trick, despite our telling them differently. So they decided to apply executive pressure all the way down the line to force us to implement COS on their system. We did so, with the caveat that if it didn't work, they would be paying for all our time and materials. Well, we rushed to get the solution in place, and of course it had zero effect. They'll be getting a $50,000 bill from us, but by gosh, they got what they wanted - except for a solution to their problem.

It's the same thing here. A Free Space Meter does nothing whatsoever for the user, and the facility already in place - the ability to sort the NPL by recording date, already does everything the user might wish to do with an FSM far more quickly, easily, and accurately.



megory said:


> To me, it is not written in stone what a human should have or is permitted to have, but there are different preferences and styles.


That brush is so broad it is meaningless. Each tool has a purpose, and a range of capabilities which usually extends somewhat beyond that purpose. A flat blade screwdriver, for example, is designed to drive slotted head screws. It does have a limited capability, however, to be used as a cold chisel and a pry-bar. That doesn't mean it is superior to a cold chisel or pry-bar for such use, or that it can be used at all to split a case hardened bolt or remove a tightly bonded brad from a piece of hardwood.

The NPL sort does effectively, efficiently, and quickly precisely what the proponents of an FSM say they wish to do, while an FSM fails almost entirely to perform that function at all, let alone effectively or efficiently. Why ask for an inferior and unusable tool when a superior one already exists?

What is so hard to understand about the fact the amount of "unused space" (whatever that means) is irrelevant on a TiVo? Why not ask for a tool that tells the user how many programs were in the guide any particular day that were not recorded by the TiVo, or how many times the user pressed a certain key on the remote? Those would tell the user as much about the relevant state of the hard drive as an FSM would.

By the way, for quite some years around the turn of the last century and up to the depression, motorists demanded automobile manufacturers provide automobile brakes actuated by steel cables rather than hydraulic lines. The automobile manufacturers acquiesced, and the motorists happily paid for the privilege - with literally thousands of their own lives. But they got what they wanted, didn't they?


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## slimjim867

Jay M said:


> The deleted items folder only holds things for a short time.
> 
> I still think there is no good reason to exclude a usage meter.
> 
> ~Jay


I agree. Totally.
Those of you that are happy with the the way it is without disk space indication are free to enjoy the box as is. There are those of us who feel that a meter would benefit us are also free to have our opinion. The meter could be optional. Use it if you wish, hide it if you wish. All of the suggestions for coping without a meter are just not enough. I am free to suggest things and I believe that Tivo wants thier subscribers to make recommendations.I want a meter.


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## WayneCarter

I recommend those that want a "free space meter" define what they consider "free space"*. IMO Merely saying you "want a meter" doesn't mean much.

* Is "free space" space ...
... not currently occupied by recordings?
... are "Suggestions" considered "free" or "in use"?
... by recordings within their KU date?
... not currently committed to scheduled recordings? (If so, at what point in time?)
... something else?


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## DAccardi

Thanks Lew & Megory and Jay M!

TiVo has no good reason to not have a usage meter.


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## classicsat

I might have said it before, but I want one like I had on the Series 1 (yes, it was a hack of sorts). A bar showed up on the top of the now playing list, showing green for KUID, yellow for regular recordings, orange for suggestions, black for actual free space.


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## innocentfreak

While I would like to have a free space indicator, one thing that also might be even more helpful is if your Tivo would automatically reflag all your shows in the Now Playing list. Obviously you wouldn't need to do this constantly but it would be nice if it happened every so often. 

If you could have an option under settings to force it whenever you want, also say once a day or whenever the daily call goes through or you could set a specific time for it to happen say 4:00 AM every other night, and whenever you shifted season passes. 

I have never understood why this doesn't happen since it would give you a true idea if something is truly at risk of being deleted.


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## TooMuchTime

There are two very good reasons to not have a free space meter. One, already mentioned, is that some LUser is going to see that their total disk space is "different" from what "they bought." I worked TechSupport for 5 years and it never ceased to amaze me how many times someone would ask why their hard drive space was not what they thought. RTFM doesn't help. Some people will just hang on to the phone because they want to talk to a person. Never mind that he's just reading what is on the FAQ page. Having to explain the difference between MBs, KBs, and how they are computed gets tiresome.

The second reason is, just what does XXgb free mean on a Tivo device? Think about that. It's not the same as a computer hard drive. Tivo drive space is based on recording hours. VCRs were like that, but you knew you had 3 hours free on a 6 hour tape. Tivo deletes old recordings automatically so _no matter how large or small your drive is, in reality, there is unlimited space for recording._ Do not think of Tivo as a permanent storage device. If you do, then you are using it wrong. Get the free Tivo Desktop and transfer what you want to keep to a personal computer for safe keeping. You can always burn it to a DVD or copy it back to Tivo for viewing later. Hard drive manufacturers are staying up nights making inexpensive drives in the 500gb-1tb range. And adding an internal drive to a PC is much easier than adding one to Tivo. And if you want to add an external drive to Tivo, read the first post in the *Official eSATA Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ* thread. It's not what you think.

Just use your Tivo as it was intended and you'll be fine.


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## ciper

There are AT LEAST two applications that run on your PC that will show you the current space allocation. 

That said unless the TiVo is less than a week old a space meter would always show 100&#37;


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## DAccardi

TooMuchTime said:


> There are two very good reasons to not have a free space meter. One, already mentioned, is that some LUser is going to see that their total disk space is "different" from what "they bought." I worked TechSupport for 5 years and it never ceased to amaze me how many times someone would ask why their hard drive space was not what they thought. RTFM doesn't help. Some people will just hang on to the phone because they want to talk to a person. Never mind that he's just reading what is on the FAQ page. Having to explain the difference between MBs, KBs, and how they are computed gets tiresome.
> 
> The second reason is, just what does XXgb free mean on a Tivo device? Think about that. It's not the same as a computer hard drive. Tivo drive space is based on recording hours. VCRs were like that, but you knew you had 3 hours free on a 6 hour tape. Tivo deletes old recordings automatically so _no matter how large or small your drive is, in reality, there is unlimited space for recording._ Do not think of Tivo as a permanent storage device. If you do, then you are using it wrong. Get the free Tivo Desktop and transfer what you want to keep to a personal computer for safe keeping. You can always burn it to a DVD or copy it back to Tivo for viewing later. Hard drive manufacturers are staying up nights making inexpensive drives in the 500gb-1tb range. And adding an internal drive to a PC is much easier than adding one to Tivo. And if you want to add an external drive to Tivo, read the first post in the *Official eSATA Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ* thread. It's not what you think.
> 
> Just use your Tivo as it was intended and you'll be fine.


Ok, solution, ready, tell us how many free hours left rather then GB. BOOYAH!


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## WayneCarter

Again -- WHAT do you consider "free space"? See this post from earlier in the thread.


WayneCarter said:


> What (specifically) do you consider "free space"?
> - Space not occupied by programs which have not been deleted?
> - Space not occupied by programs currently within their KU date?
> - Space not occupied by programs or committed to programs scheduled to be recorded?
> - ...
> - Should "Suggestions" be included as well?
> - If space committed to upcoming shows is to be considered, how far in advance should "free space" be considered?


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## Jonathan_S

DAccardi said:


> Ok, solution, ready, tell us how many free hours left rather then GB. BOOYAH!


Ok, but then you're displaying up to 7 estimates (some with noticable variability, since some HD channels are more compressed than others, even at the same resolution)

HD 1080i: 3-4 hours
HD 720p: 5-7 hours
480p: 35 hours
480i - Best: 27 hours
480i - High: 35 hours
480i - Medium: 50 hours 
480i - Basic: 80 hours

And that's ignoring web downloads, transfers from the PC, etc.

And none of those really answers the question of, how long do I have (assuming no user intervention) before the first recording I care about gets deleted. Because even with all that information, you'd still have to go figure out what mix of recording qualities are schedule to record.


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## jmlyle

TooMuchTime said:


> One, already mentioned, is that some LUser is going to see that their total disk space is "different" from what "they bought." I worked TechSupport for 5 years and it never ceased to amaze me how many times someone would ask why their hard drive space was not what they thought.


Well then, since Tivo is advertising a specific size of hard drive, shouldn't they really be advertising the amount of _usable _storage to avoid this problem?


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## TooMuchTime

> Well then, since Tivo is advertising a specific size of hard drive, shouldn't they really be advertising the amount of usable storage to avoid this problem?


That's not it. Binarily, 1024 bytes is one kilobyte (God I hate repeating this!) and multiplied by 1000 is 1,024,000 or 1 megabyte. Some manufacturers say a KB is 1000 bytes and they figure their drives by that. So that 1,000,000 bytes is 1 megabyte. Therein lies the problem. It's different. Someone is going to complain. And if some_one_ does, then it will be some _two_. Then three and so on. As I said, RTFM doesn't help.



> Ok, solution, ready, tell us how many free hours left rather then GB. BOOYAH!


You don't get it. Since Tivo removes recordings automatically, you have _unlimited free space_. It's as if the VHS tape fairies came to your house every night, found all the old outdated shows you don't watch and erased them from your tapes.

"Wow! I had 3 hours free on this tape yesterday, now I have 6! _Sweet!_"

Just setup your recordings and let Tivo do the rest. If you want to save some recordings, see my previous post.


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## jmlyle

TooMuchTime said:


> That's not it. Binarily, 1024 bytes is one kilobyte (God I hate repeating this!) and multiplied by 1000 is 1,024,000 or 1 megabyte. Some manufacturers say a KB is 1000 bytes and they figure their drives by that. So that 1,000,000 bytes is 1 megabyte. Therein lies the problem. It's different. Someone is going to complain. And if some_one_ does, then it will be some _two_. Then three and so on. As I said, RTFM doesn't help.


Thanks. Unfortunately, I'm not a complete idiot, but you had no way of knowing that. Of course, you could have just read my comment as opposed to complaining about having to explain something which I didn't ask about, since I already knew it.

I said that they should advertise the amount of usable recording space, as opposed to the manufacturer's definition of drive size, or what Windows would report as drive size. And they can choose to display the size in their interface, with their code, in whatever standard they choose. Of course, the most conservative measurement standard would lead to the least complaints from people, but that would mean that they would have to lower the Disk Size that they advertise, which they probably are not willing to do, which is odd, since lots of people here seem to claim that disk size doesn't matter, since somehow it is magically infinite.

How cold anyone say such a preposterous thing?



TooMuchTime said:


> You don't get it. Since Tivo removes recordings automatically, *you have unlimited free space*.


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## lrhorer

Jonathan_S said:


> And none of those really answers the question of, how long do I have (assuming no user intervention) before the first recording I care about gets deleted. Because even with all that information, you'd still have to go figure out what mix of recording qualities are schedule to record.


Exactly. No matter what, to answer that question one must go to the NPL and sort by date. It is much easier to just do that in the first place and forget about any notion of "free space". What's even easier is simply to make sure one has a large enough drive to ensure the user will be able to take a look at any recording before it evaporates off the Tivo. Then let the TiVo fill to capacity. People keep talking wanting to "do" it a different way. How is doing something - no matter how easy or straightforward - easier or better than doing absolutely nothing whatsoever? I can understand how someone might prefer one particular method over another, but how on Earth can someone claim that they prefer doing something to doing nothing? Why take time and trouble to do something when someone else is willing and far more able to do it for you?


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## lrhorer

jmlyle said:


> but that would mean that they would have to lower the Disk Size that they advertise, which they probably are not willing to do, which is odd, since lots of people here seem to claim that disk size doesn't matter, since somehow it is magically infinite.


That's nonsense. No one ever said that. Disk size is very important, but only total disk size. "Free space", if there were definitively such a thing, is irrelevant. People have noted that free space is "unlimited", but there is a big difference between unlimited and infinite.



jmlyle said:


> How cold anyone say such a preposterous thing?


No one did, but the fact you think someone did strongly suggests you are missing the point and failing to understand the situation.

The Tivo in my livingroom has 1T of storage - which is about in the middle of the range of available storage on a Tivo. Ignoring KUID, the oldest program on a Tivo is always at risk of being overwritten. When a program is recorded, after some period of time it will inevitably become the oldest program on the Tivo - again ignoring any KUID programs - unless the user deletes it. On average, the age of any such typical program defines the amount of time after recording a person has to watch a program before it is in danger of being deleted. Say, for example, with no intervention from the user other than deleting programs he does not want to watch, the oldest program on the Tivo is 4 weeks old. This means that *every* program about to be deleted is going to be 4 weeks old, plus or minus a little bit.

Is that clear? If not, then please read it again before continuing.

The fact the oldest recording is always 4 weeks old means the user always has 4 weeks to decide whether or not to watch a program before it is in danger of being deleted. Four weeks is a fairly long time, allowing the user plenty of opportunities to watch any given program before it is automatically deleted.

Note also that no matter what or who does it, the user or the Tivo, one program or another is eventually going to have to be deleted. Neither a free space meter nor any other artifice will prevent this eventuality, but it is only true after a program has been kept a specific period of time - in our example 4 weeks. Any program younger than this will never be in danger of being deleted unless the user drastically alters his recording and watching habits. When a user knows he will be altering said habits, he should realize without any FSM that a change will take place in the age of the oldest program. For example, if the family is going on vacation for 2 weeks, noone is going to be deleting any programs. The FSM won't tell one that, but one must accommodate the situation or risk losing some desirable programs. Similarly, if a 72 hour marathon of episodes of Star Trek in HD is about to be recorded, some programs are probably going to fall of the Tivo early. An FSM won't tell you which ones, but glancing at the time sorted NPL will, and allow you to act acordingly.

Now put the two together, and what does it tell us? That the TiVo will delete every program without the user ever bothering with an FSM or anything else. The only trick is to make sure the drive is large enough - not free space but total space - to allow a more than acceptable amount of time to pass after being recorded before the Tivo will delete a recording, making it unavailable to the user.

The real-world result? (Remember, I never delete anything except programs I am not interested in watching, usually because I just finished watching them.) The oldest scheduled program on my living room Tivo is more than a year and a half old. To put it another way, any program I have scheduled to record will stay on the TiVo for over a year and a half before being deleted unless I decide (sometime within that year and a half) to delete it myself. This is not a lightly used TiVo, either. It records easily a dozen or more programs a day.

Let that sink in a bit. A year and a half to decide whether you want a recording or not. All without any hint of an FSM, or indeed my doing anything whatsoever other than watching programs and deleting them or deciding I don't want to watch them in the first place.

I'll say it again. I do nothing - *NOTHING* - except browse the NPL and either watch a program, decide I'll watch it later, or decide I don't want to watch it later and then delete it. If someone can't take the time to watch a program sometime within a year and a half, then really, how badly can they truly want to watch it? If your drive is not large enough to hold at least 4 to 8 weeks of programming, then you need a larger drive, not an FSM.

One note: that year and a half number is for scheduled recordings. By their nature and their number, TiVo Suggestions are deleted much more quickly on average than scheduled recordings. Typically I have at least 4 weeks to decide to watch any given suggestion. If I wanted to extend that time, I would just increase the drive size to something more than 1T, but I find 4 weeks to be plenty.

There is no such thing as infinite storage, but the Tivo drive is not a repository. It is a very large FIFO buffer, and as such its resources are unlimited. The best use of the resources occurs if the drive is full, not some amount shy of being full. If the drive is sufficiently large, there simply is never any reason to delete a recording which might be of interest earlier than absolutely necessary, and the TiVo will do just that without the user ever worrying about it.


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## lrhorer

TooMuchTime said:


> That's not it. Binarily, 1024 bytes is one kilobyte (God I hate repeating this!) and multiplied by 1000 is 1,024,000 or 1 megabyte.


No, the standard definition of the prefix Mega is 1,000,000. The standard prefix Mebi (or Mi) is 1,048,576, not 1,024,000. Many of us fudge the standard and use the term MB to refer to what is actually MiB, but no matter what the amount is not 1,024,000 Bytes.



TooMuchTime said:


> Some manufacturers say a KB is 1000 bytes and they figure their drives by that. So that 1,000,000 bytes is 1 megabyte.


SI standard units and prefixes were first defined in 1795, nearly 150 years prior to the invention of the electronic digital computer, and have been a ratified standard in most countries for well over a century. Kilo is defined as 1000 and mega as 1,000,000. The reason for this is almost everyone on Earth employs a base ten representation for numbers, whether they deal with computers or not. Computers, however work in binary. Any number displayed in decimal notation is first calculated or stored in some binary form and then converted for display. It so happens, however, that 2^10 is very close to 1000 and 2^20 is very close to 1,000,000, so people began calling 1024 bytes a kilkobyte or 1 KB, and 1,048,576 bytes a megabyte or 1 MB. Regardless of whether one uses the proper terms KiB, MiB, GiB, TiB, etc or are lazy and use KB, MB, etc, it is never true that any of the terms refer to some mixture of a power of ten and a power of 2. They always refer either to powers of ten incrementing in exponents of 3 or powers of 2 incrementing in exponents of 10.


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## EVizzle

the sooner you embrace the Tivo Suggestions folder and the RD folders, the more you will understand about a Tivo. A DVR is a glorified VCR. Fill it up, delete it and reuse it. A Tivo finds shows you may like, manages your favorite shows based on your preferences, provides access to web content and downloads, and allows you to prioritize your content.

The hard drive space is close to irrelevant. Your Tivo is based on hours of content you watch in a certain amount of time. If you don't have enough time to watch all the content you hope to, you need more storage space. If you record more than you watch, your Tivo will fill up. If you do not, your Tivo will empty.


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## jmlyle

lrhorer said:


> The only trick is to make sure the drive is large enough - not free space but total space - to allow a more than acceptable amount of time to pass after being recorded before the Tivo will delete a recording, making it unavailable to the user.


So, my current DVR has 588 shows recorded. About half have been recorded in the past month. 90% have been recorded in the past year. The oldest shows, ones that I have yet to watch and still intend to, are over 3 years old. At the moment, I've got 14 1/2 hours of record time left, which is less than usual. A lot of those shows phase out with time, since they are set to only keep a limited number of episodes. Knowing the amount of record space left allows me to plan ahead and know when and if I will have to make some choices.Usually that means a quick trio through the "scheduled to record" list and skipping shows which I've seen or have no interest in.

Age of the show is completely meaningless. Sometimes we don't watch a show until the season is over. Other shows we will watch as soon as we can.

So, according to your definitions, that is not a well used DVR, since I have control over what happens and spend about 5 minutes every few months making my own decisions about what is important.


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## lrhorer

jmlyle said:


> So, my current DVR has 588 shows recorded. About half have been recorded in the past month. 90% have been recorded in the past year. The oldest shows, ones that I have yet to watch and still intend to, are over 3 years old. At the moment, I've got 14 1/2 hours of record time left, which is less than usual.


Then you have 14 1/2 hours of wasted space. If there were about four more movies and sixteen more 30 minute programs, then you would have that much more available for choosing. If those 20 programs get deleted by the TiVo, then you are no worse off than if the space were not filled. Until they do get deleted, however, you have the opportunity to watch them should you so choose.



jmlyle said:


> A lot of those shows phase out with time, since they are set to only keep a limited number of episodes.


Every program (other than KUID) phases out with time. Season Passes with specific keep at most settings will be phased out much more regularly than otherwise. This allows the user an additional management tool. It's a great feature, but it also completely ignores the amount of space used overall, and instead focuses indirectly on the amount of space used by that one suggestion. Regardless, the shows are still deleted automatically by the TiVo. You don't need to mess with it, except once again to delete any programs you do not wish to view. 'Nothng about a "free space meter" there, at all, and any such device is even more irrelevant in this instance than in general. After all, you have have a TiVo that's 95% empty, and if your Season Pass is set to KAM 5, then it will delete the first show as soon as a sixth is recorded, no matter how much "free space" there might be.



jmlyle said:


> Knowing the amount of record space left allows me to plan ahead and know when and if I will have to make some choices.


There are no choices to be made, other than whether you want to watch a program, or not. If you don't wnat to watch a program, then it is wasting space that could be used by another program, and it is best to be deleted, no matter how much space is otherwise there.



jmlyle said:


> Usually that means a quick trio through the "scheduled to record" list and skipping shows which I've seen or have no interest in.


That's fine. You are doing nothing then but deleting the show before it is recorded. It really makes very little difference whether you accomplish this before or after it is recorded. The effect is the same, and has nothing to do with how much free space you have. It only has to do with getting rid of things you don't want to leave more room for those that you do. If that sounds like a contradiction, or like it has anything to do with free space, then you need to think about it more.

I'll illustrate. You have roughly three separate choices on a TiVo that can hold, say, 50 programs.

1. 30 programs you want to watch and 20 programs you do not.

2. 30 programs you want and 20 programs worth of free space.

3. 50 programs you want.

Which is preferable? #1 results from not deleting programs you do not want. #2 results from using an FSM. #3 results from deleting any programs you do not want (either before or after they are recorded) without respect to how much "free space" there may be.

Which is best?



jmlyle said:


> Age of the show is completely meaningless.


Are you daft? Age is how the TiVo determines which shows to delete. This, whether you have a KAM setting on a season pass, or the TIvo simply decides to make room for a new recording. Generally speaking, new programs are never at risk of being deleted at all. Old programs always are. The age of the program is of utmost importance in this context, since if you wait too long, the program will be deleted. It's true one can and will forestall the deletion of the program by deleting other programs first, but this is why you should delete any programs you do not want. It increases the average deletion age of your programs.



jmlyle said:


> Sometimes we don't watch a show until the season is over. Other shows we will watch as soon as we can.


That's fine. I often do the same thing. The point is the program is not in jeopardy of being deleted until after it reaches a certain age. If you get a larger hard drive, that age is greatly increased.



jmlyle said:


> So, according to your definitions, that is not a well used DVR, since I have control over what happens and spend about 5 minutes every few months making my own decisions about what is important.


I'm not sure I follow what you are saying, but I surely never defined "well used" in any manner resembling what you are saying - although I am not at all sure what you are saying. A "Well used" TiVo is one which remains full or nearly so at all times, and which provides its owners with the widest possible array of programming for their viewing pleasure.


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## jmlyle

lrhorer said:


> Then you have 14 1/2 hours of wasted space.


As I use it, it is like a warning, telling me how close I am to a situation where something I want to watch will have to be deleted.



lrhorer said:


> 1. 30 programs you want to watch and 20 programs you do not.
> 
> 2. 30 programs you want and 20 programs worth of free space.
> 
> 3. 50 programs you want.
> 
> Which is preferable? #1 results from not deleting programs you do not want. #2 results from using an FSM. #3 results from deleting any programs you do not want (either before or after they are recorded) without respect to how much "free space" there may be.
> 
> Which is best?


#2 and #3 are the same as far as I am concerned, and #1 is undesirable. 
For #3 specifically, if I knew that the drive was full at that point, I would go and either disable the recording of anything that I wanted to watch less than EACH of the recorded shows, or I would browse and pick which shows I wanted to watch the least and delete them in order to make way for things that I want more. It is ridiculous to think that it would be best to have the oldest show deleted first. That makes absolutely zero sense.



lrhorer said:


> Are you daft? Age is how the TiVo determines which shows to delete.


No, thanks for asking. I am saying that it is daft to assume that "oldest" is a desirable criterion for deletion. Of course, it is the most logical for an automated system to use when it is full, but it is not appropriate for choosing what I want to keep and what I don't care about.

So, I have less crap that I don't want to watch on my DVR than you do. And when I let it get close to full, I have to make some choices. It doesn't happen very often. But, if you wanted to keep just about everything that you currently had recorded, like I do, then you would apparently have to spend a lot more time than I do deleting things you don't want to watch, in order to protect the things you do.



lrhorer said:


> I'm not sure I follow what you are saying, but I surely never defined "well used" in any manner resembling what you are saying - although I am not at all sure what you are saying. A "Well used" TiVo is one which remains full or nearly so at all times, and which provides its owners with the widest possible array of programming for their viewing pleasure.


I simply disagree that a "well used" DVR has to be full.


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## lrhorer

jmlyle said:


> As I use it, it is like a warning, telling me how close I am to a situation where something I want to watch will have to be deleted.


That is precisely the point! *A "Free Space" meter doesn't tell you that!* It's like asking a thermometer to tell you when your blood glucose is too high. An FSM only tells the user that something is about to be deleted, not what is about to be deleted. On the TiVo, there is always something about to be deleted, and there is no reason to worry over the fact, unless the hard drive is undersized.



jmlyle said:


> #2 and #3 are the same as far as I am concerned


No offense, but you are daft. I take it you only own 1 DVD, 1 book, and always eat the same meal 3 times a day, day after day? I suppose you also fuel your car every day, putting in only enough gasoline to get you to the office and back? If you truly feel that way, why bother with a TiVo or any sort of recording device at all? For that matter, why bother with cable or even a variable tuner on your TV, if one channel is just as good as 100?



jmlyle said:


> For #3 specifically, if I knew that the drive was full at that point, I would go and either disable the recording of anything that I wanted to watch less than EACH of the recorded shows, or I would browse and pick which shows I wanted to watch the least and delete them in order to make way for things that I want more.


Why go to such ridiculous lengths, when it isn't necessary? That's the point.



jmlyle said:


> It is ridiculous to think that it would be best to have the oldest show deleted first. That makes absolutely zero sense.


Again, I mean absolutely no offense, but you seem to have a very significant insufficiency when it comes to deductive reasoning. It makes absolutely total sense that - with some individual exceptions - in general the most desirable and interesting programs will be watched first and less desirable and interesting ones would be more likely to be allowed to languish, especially over a moderately extended period of time. What's both more relevant and more universally true is giving the individual plenty of time to look over the recordings will allow them ample opportunity to decide just how important any given program is and watch it ifi t is deemed. desirable. If a program is repeatedly browsed and repeatedly deemed less desirable than all the other available programs, then by deduction it's being old means precisely that it is less desirable than other offerings on the drive, or potentially to be recorded. This should be obvious to anyone.



jmlyle said:


> No, thanks for asking. I am saying that it is daft to assume that "oldest" is a desirable criterion for deletion. Of course, it is the most logical for an automated system to use when it is full, but it is not appropriate for choosing what I want to keep and what I don't care about.


And you are still missing the point. First of all, as I pointed out just above, KUID aside, how old any unwatched program may be is in fact a fairly good measure of how much one cares about watching a program. Secondly, an FSM in no way assists in making such a determination. Thirdly, merely by having a large enough hard drive, the need to make such a determination is eliminated entirely. I am sure like the rest of us, you balance your checkbook regularly. If, however, every time your bank balance fell below $100,000 some benefactor saw to it enough cash was added back to your account to bring it back to above $100,000 without any intervention from you, would you then bother to balance your checkbook? I surely wouldn't. Simply by having a large enough hard drive, one does not ever need to worry that an important recording will be deleted before one has the opportunity to watch it. It just won't happen. This fact above all others makes the FSM completely useless.



jmlyle said:


> So, I have less crap that I don't want to watch on my DVR than you do.


I have almost no crap I do not want to watch on my DVR. There are lots of things on there I won't get the opportunity to watch, but c'est la vie. For the most part, the only things on the DVR I don't want to watch are items I just finished watching. Since I do not wish to watch them again (unless of course I do want to watch them again, in which case KUID may come into play), I delete them. Of course often the Season Pass will record an episode of a series I have already seen and do not care to watch again, in which case they also get deleted. Finally, every once in a while, Suggestions or Wishlists will record something in which I am not really interested, in which case I will delete the program. I think most people would agree this is something which is a good idea no matter how empty or full a DVR may be. There just is no point keeping something of which one no longer wishes to make any use.



jmlyle said:


> And when I let it get close to full, I have to make some choices. It doesn't happen very often. But, if you wanted to keep just about everything that you currently had recorded, like I do, then you would apparently have to spend a lot more time than I do deleting things you don't want to watch, in order to protect the things you do.


That's total nonsense. If you want to watch the items in question, why are you hoarding them, rather than watching them? If you are watching them, why do you keep them after you have watched them?

If your TiVo doesn't get full very often, then you are limiting the variety, quantity, and quality of programs available to you for viewing for absolutely no reason whatsoever. There is no significant disadvantage to having a full TiVo.



jmlyle said:


> I simply disagree that a "well used" DVR has to be full.


Yet again I find myself qualifying my post by saying I really and truly mean no offense, but you genuinely seem to have a somewhat severe disability when it comes to deductive reasoning and its application to a situation. By definition, "Free Space" is constituted by unused areas of the hard drive.* The term "well used" is the antonym of "unused". By clear definition, a well used DVR must be full, QED. An identical notion, just expressed differently, is that the metric of how much a DVR is used is how many programs are available to be watched on it and how often the list is turned over.

*What actually constitutes "unused" on a TiVo is open to widely varying interpretations.


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## jmlyle

lrhorer said:


> Why go to such ridiculous lengths, when it isn't necessary?


Why go to the ridiculous lengths of spending 5 minutes every few months? Wow. You're right. I never thought of it that way. I surely am daft to go through such contortions.



lrhorer said:


> It makes absolutely total sense that - with some individual exceptions - in general the most desirable and interesting programs will be watched first and less desirable and interesting ones would be more likely to be allowed to languish, especially over a moderately extended period of time. What's both more relevant and more universally true is giving the individual plenty of time to look over the recordings will allow them ample opportunity to decide just how important any given program is and watch it ifi t is deemed. desirable. If a program is repeatedly browsed and repeatedly deemed less desirable than all the other available programs, then by deduction it's being old means precisely that it is less desirable than other offerings on the drive, or potentially to be recorded. This should be obvious to anyone.


There are 4 people in my home. Some shows are really only wanted by 1 person. Some shows by 2 people, some by 3 and some by all 4. That is 15 different sets of viewing audiences. 2 people watching together will not watch a show that only 1 of them wants. There are some things that 3 people want to watch together, but the opportunity that those 3 people are watching TV together sometimes doesn't arise for months at a time if not for over a year. It should be obvious to anyone that "deleting the oldest shows" might not be the best option for every situation.



lrhorer said:


> And you are still missing the point.


Whatever. I'm done arguing with a stump.

There is something common to what we are both saying, and something very different.

What we have in common: you and I are both saying that we know what is right for me and my family.

How we differ: you are absolutely wrong, and it is idiotic to even argue it.


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## DAccardi

I agree with it is much simpler to have a free space meter then do all the pathetic calculations with suggestions and timing of deleted episodes and so forth. No need for rocket science, just gimme a meter.


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## etothe456t

There is a way to view your free space!

Connect to your tivo though the hidden web server. Open a browser on your PC and connect to "https://yourTiVoIP" for example "https://192.168.1.100" - Remember you must use the https and ignore all security certificate warnings.

When asked for a log-in, the user name is "tivo" and the password is your Media Access Key.

Here you will find the best way to view and the easiest way to transfer your recordings to your PC.

Now the built in interface is very basic but it does let you view the size of recordings. To get the total space used you will need to augment the code built into tivo's interface with some client-side run code:

Check out this thread to get the code and for a screenshot:
Check out thread #232322 "A better /nowplaying/index.html " on this forum (sorry my low post count wont allow me to post links)


I always thought TiVo could seriously benefit from having a truly interactive built in web-server client where advanced users like myself could view all the technical information on my tivo in all its detail. I wish I could use this interface to schedule my recordings and change my tivo settings instead of going though all the slow tivo menus on my TV. Ive already made suggestions to tivo - you should too. There is serious potential in this tivo web-interface.


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## lrhorer

DAccardi said:


> I agree with it is much simpler to have a free space meter then do all the pathetic calculations with suggestions and timing of deleted episodes and so forth. No need for rocket science, just gimme a meter.


You are missing the point entirely. There is no need for calculations, for worrying about timing, for doing anything whatsoever. *There is no need to do anything at all* other than ensure one has a large enough hard drive. Why is this so hard to understand? It doesn't matter how many people there are, what the family dynamic may be, what the viewing habits may be, or how heavy the recording schedule may be. Whatever the dynamic, once the hard drive size is sufficiently large for the given recording schedule, that's it. There is no need to ever turn on the TV except to watch recorded shows or set shows to be recorded. The user does nothing. No meters. No calculations. No checking. Nada. Zilch. Keine. Nyets. What part of *NOTHING* do you not understand?

On the other hand, WITH an FSM, one must check regularly and try to figure out which programs are about to be deleted, yada yada yada. The end result? The user has just done a bunch of work - be it 5 minutes or 5 hours - that serverd no purpose whatsoever other than to unnecessarily limit the number of items in the NPL.

Why do you want a meter that does nothing except induce you to do something you never need to do in the first place? It is the meter which will require the user to perform all sorts of calculations. There is also absolutely no reason why the meter should ever read anything but "0", other than for extremely brief periods of time.

I have never - not once - in the last 6 years tried to figure out when a program would be deleted. I have never - not once - in the last 6 years deleted a program unless it was one I no longer wished to watch. I have never - not once - in the last 6 years scanned the drives for programs to determine which newer ones needed to be deleted so I would not lose an older one. I have never - not once - in the last 8 years needed a meter to tell me how much free space was on the TiVo since the answer is always "0". I have never - not once - in the last 6 years accidentally had a program deleted by one of the Tivos. My Tivos record between 10 and 20 programs a day.

By the way, if you read my paragraph above as carefully as you should, you would have noticed one time I said "8", instead of "6". That is because for the first two years I had a TiVo with an undersized drive. Thus, I had concerns about when a program might be deleted, but once my first Tivo had a sufficiently large drive, the situation disappeared. That's the entire point.

It's also simple to tell the difference. 'No calculations of any significance, no figuring, no dealing with complex computations. Simply go to the NPL, turn off groups, and sort by date. If the oldest scheduled program is less than 4 weeks old, your drive is too small. In my case, my three TiVos usually have between 150 and 300 programs, the oldest (non KUID) on my most used Tivo being over 18 months old, and on the smallest Tivo being 3 months old.


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## DAccardi

Give me a free space meter, thanks TiVo! No reason why you shouldn't. Thanks!


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## lrhorer

jmlyle said:


> Why go to the ridiculous lengths of spending 5 minutes every few months? Wow. You're right. I never thought of it that way. I surely am daft to go through such contortions.


If you are only going to look at the FSM every 6 months, then why do you want it at all? Either you are being disingenuous, and in fact intend to use the FSM far more often than you say, or else your perceived need for a management solution is based upon a time frame which you yourself categorize as exceptionally long. Assuming in fact you only need the FSM once every six months, then increase the size of your hard drive by 25% and the need for a FSM will be pushed out beyond the lifespan of the Tivo, and indeed to infinity. If any program on your system is ever in jeopardy, then increase the size of the drive and the situation will never come up again.



jmlyle said:


> There are 4 people in my home. Some shows are really only wanted by 1 person. Some shows by 2 people, some by 3 and some by all 4. That is 15 different sets of viewing audiences. 2 people watching together will not watch a show that only 1 of them wants. There are some things that 3 people want to watch together, but the opportunity that those 3 people are watching TV together sometimes doesn't arise for months at a time if not for over a year. It should be obvious to anyone that "deleting the oldest shows" might not be the best option for every situation.


It is only "obvious" to those who have no clear understanding of the situation, both specifically and in general. You are insisting on applying your intuition to this situation, when your intuition is flat wrong. When it comes to engineering and understanding how the world works, most people's intuition is flat wrong. Yet they argue incessantly in favor of relationships that simply don't apply. Unbelieveably, there are people who will argue no end that a bowling ball will fall much faster than a small ball bearing, because the bowling ball is heavier. This is a similar situation.

The dymnamics of the family situation and of their recording preferences are not relevant. It's true a more intense recording scheudule will increase the size of drive necessary to see the effect, but my Tivos probably record more than yours do, as there are anything between 10 and 20 recordings a day on each of three TiVos, and occasionally more. On Tuesday this week, one of my Tivos recorded 42 programs. It may be a year or more before some of them get watched. Five of them were episodes of Wings I didn't care to watch again, and 3 of them were episodes of The Outer Limits I already have on the server. The rest will either be archived to the server, watched if I have the time, or eventually deleted by the TiVo. I would like to be able to watch all 34 programs, as well as the 80 or so recorded and kept since then, but there is no way. I will, however, have plenty of time to decide whether to make arrangements to keep any specific one or let Tivo take its course long before they in fact get deleted. The TiVo in question, and both others, have zero free space on them. They also have a total of more than 600 programs waiting for me, my family, friends, colleagues, and overnight guests to watch on the Tivos. Plus, of course, a couple of thousand or so on the Server.



jmlyle said:


> Whatever. I'm done arguing with a stump.


No, you are arguing with an engineer with 30 years experience in handling storage systems in general and a long, intimate association with TiVos specifically. Ad hominem arguments and insults do nothing to forward your position. One can also only notice you did not address even a single one of my points. One might wonder why.



jmlyle said:


> There is something common to what we are both saying, and something very different.
> 
> What we have in common: you and I are both saying that we know what is right for me and my family.


No, I'm not. I'm saying you have very little to no understanding of the dynamics of a FIFO device such as the Tivo. Your family's size, diversity, or preferences have nothing to do with the mathematics relevant to the situation. They affect at most only the boundary conditions. One is intensely personal and completely subjective. The other is as impersonal and objective as the safety limit for a freight elevator carrying a load of ceramic floor tiles.

Although the mathematics are a bit inductive and not very obvious, the result is simple: With a large enough hard drive, one never has to worry about a program being indavertantly deleted. The exact size required depends upon the variability of the net number of programs being added per day. Over a sufficiently long period of time, the number drops to zero. The storage size at that limit is the maximum the situaion will ever require without considerations of when a program will be deleted. Below that size, it is possible a program may be inadvertantly deleted. Above that size, and allowing a fudge factor for content variability, it will never happen. For most families, this point is reached when the oldest scheduled recordings (with the user deleting nothing but items no one wants to watch any longer) are about 4 weeks old, give or take. If one or more members of the group habitually takes longer than that period to decide whether a program is of interest or not, then the drive size may need to be increased, but not linearly. The incremental drive size decreases as the period of consideration increases. At some point, the buffer overflow period will exceed the life of the Tivo. For most users, this will be somewhere between 200 and 500 hours recording time.



jmlyle said:


> How we differ: you are absolutely wrong, and it is idiotic to even argue it.


Oh, good heavens, jmlyle says I'm wrong! What a perfectly insightful and brilliantly deductive argument. [/sarcasm] A clear and concise outline of just how any why I am wrong, complete with empirical data would go much further toward advancing your position. That such is clearly lacking from your post is highly suggestive of something.


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## lrhorer

etothe456t said:


> There is a way to view your free space!


Of course there is. There is, however, no point in doing so, since it is essentially always zero. Why bother to look up something when I already know the answer?



etothe456t said:


> Here you will find the best way to view and the easiest way to transfer your recordings to your PC.


No, Galleon is much easier. The recordings can be selected from any Tivo in the house as well as from the computer, one can select as many recordings as one likes to be recorded from whatever TiVos one wishes, and one can set up automated transfers based upon varoius criteria. For example, I have transfers set up for the original Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation, but not for any of the newer 'Trek series.



etothe456t said:


> I always thought TiVo could seriously benefit from having a truly interactive built in web-server client where advanced users like myself could view all the technical information on my tivo in all its detail. I wish I could use this interface to schedule my recordings and change my tivo settings instead of going though all the slow tivo menus on my TV. Ive already made suggestions to tivo - you should too. There is serious potential in this tivo web-interface.


One already exists, and has for years. It's called TiVoWebPlus. Most users, however, would consider it unfortunate that it requires a hacked TiVo. As an advanced user, you may not consider it to be quite so unfortunate. I don't.


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## magnus

There are several reasons not to:

1) You'll ***** about how your drive should give you X amount of recording time.

2) You'll wonder why your Tivo deleted X program because you have X amount of space.

3) There is absolutely no reason to waste development time on it. As others have said in this thread.... the Tivo manages things.



DAccardi said:


> Give me a free space meter, thanks TiVo! No reason why you shouldn't. Thanks!


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## argicida

DAccardi said:


> Give me a free space meter, thanks TiVo! No reason why you shouldn't. Thanks!


There has got to be a reason or they would have done it - there are a couple hundred thousand Google hits for Tivo Free Space.

Most seem to be customers who want the feature. No sane company would ignore that kind of demand for no reason.


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## mindchaotica

I still think they do it so you can make a drinking game out of it.. LOL


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## lew

Tivo doesn't think a FSI would sell any additional units. The deleted show folder and/or the number of suggestions in your NPL gives users an idea as to how much space is available.

That said I don't think the average TCF member can relate to the reasons why customers might want that feature. TCF members upgrade their units with larger hard drives. The FSI would be of use to a customer who doesn't upgrade their hard drive.

lrhorer is half right, customers may only use that feature a couple of times a year (every 6 months). Before they go away on vacation and want to decide if they should delete shows in their NPL (movies that can be re-recorded) or if they need to prune the number of shows scheduled to record. Those customers can't rely on tivo to delete the "correct" shows. A movie recorded last week may have a lower priority (to that customer) then a month old recording of Lost. The act of pruning may motivate some of the customers into purchasing a larger hard drive (external).


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## WayneCarter

lew said:


> Tivo doesn't think a FSI would sell any additional units. The deleted show folder and/or the number of suggestions in your NPL gives users an idea as to how much space is available.
> 
> That said I don't think the average TCF member can relate to the reasons why customers might want that feature. TCF members upgrade their units with larger hard drives. The FSI would be of use to a customer who doesn't upgrade their hard drive.
> 
> lrhorer is half right, customers may only use that feature a couple of times a year (every 6 months). Before they go away on vacation and want to decide if they should delete shows in their NPL (movies that can be re-recorded) or if they need to prune the number of shows scheduled to record. Those customers can't rely on tivo to delete the "correct" shows. A movie recorded last week may have a lower priority (to that customer) then a month old recording of Lost. The act of pruning may motivate some of the customers into purchasing a larger hard drive (external).


How does a free space meter (in either MB, recording time, or whatever) do to help? Just determining the amount of space TiVo will require over the vacation is a decidedly non-trivial task involving the ToDo List, the duration and quality setting for each show scheduled to be recorded during the vacation period, each show's KAM setting, etc.

OK Let's assume that there was some reasonably accurate way to determine the space requirement thru some arbitrary date in the future, AND a reasonably accurate and meaningful FSI, so you now can determine you'll need to free X mb (or min, or ... ) to avoid having TiVo delete anything while you're away. What do you realistically do as a result? Delete shows until there is at least X free? ... most of the shows deleted manually are the same ones that TiVo would have deleted for you automatically on its own.

You have some oldish shows you don't want TiVo to delete? Fine, set 'em to KU, KUID, and/or transfer them to a computer. KU can be set up to a month ahead, although I use KUID because it's easier.

IMO The "why" TiVo doesn't have a FSI is because building a meaningful and truely useful FSI for TiVo is a very difficult proposition, and I suspect that whatever FSI was developed would be found "inadequate" by most users.


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## lew

WayneCarter said:


> OK Let's assume that there was some reasonably accurate way to determine the space requirement thru some arbitrary date in the future, AND a reasonably accurate and meaningful FSI, so you now can determine you'll need to free X mb (or min, or ... ) to avoid having TiVo delete anything while you're away. What do you realistically do as a result? Delete shows until there is at least X free? ... most of the shows deleted manually are the same ones that TiVo would have deleted for you automatically on its own.


exactly. A user could delete any show they know they can re-record (or get from Netflix). That would include most movies. Deleting those shows is easier then adjusting the save until date. The record date is irrelevent, my criteria is how easy it will be to replace the show that is deleted unwatched.

I have a Verizon DVR. I use the free space indicator to let me know what shows I should be recording on my TivoHD (upgraded) due to space issues on my FiOS DVR.

Again most of us have expanded our hard drives so space is not a consideration.
edited to add Some posters don't understand different customers have different circumstances. The fact that posters (with upgraded hard drives) have no use for a FSI feature doesn't mean other customers might have use for it.


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## CrispyCritter

I'm a long-time veteran of the FSI wars, just poking my head in for a quick comment - nobody has really addressed what, IMO, is the major reason TiVo hasn't implemented a FSI: the cost. Not the implementation cost; that's trivial - screenshots escaped showing TiVo even implemented it a couple of times in the very early years. But the financial and customer relation costs of supporting it as an ongoing feature.

People will use it, most probably appropriately. But some people will skate too close to the edge and lose shows when TiVo does something they don't expect. Those people are going to blame TiVo, and call support, or even worse, start talking about how they trusted TiVo and were betrayed.

It's going to happen. There will be calls like "TiVo said I had 10 GBytes free, and I recorded an HD football game that was only 8 GBytes long, but it deleted shows anyways." (TiVo is conservative and has to reserve a lot more space for an HD show than it typically uses, since it has no control over the bit-rate.) Or other calls like "I didn't record anything and all of a sudden the FSI went to 0 and deletions started." (Typical behavior when KUID SP's suddenly appear in the future schedule and start affecting free space days before they get recorded.)

TiVo is very conservative in its scheduling, and I don't know anybody outside TiVo who understands all the ins and outs. There are some very weird corner cases that TiVo has never commented on, and undoubtedly doesn't wish to comment on. And unlike other DVR companies, TiVo is not in charge of the incoming bit-rates and has to be much more conservative than them.

Adding FSI is going to get some people upset at TiVo when their idea of TiVo's scheduling algorithms doesn't agree with what TiVo does. They're going to lose shows and be unhappy. TiVo works hard to maintain the trust of its users, and trust would be affected by an FSI. And if 0.1&#37; of the users have FSI problems in a year and call support, it's probably going to cost TiVo over a hundred thousand dollars every year in time and training.

Will an FSI really sell enough more TiVo's to be worth these costs?


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## ciper

I want to applaud lrhorer for taking his time to write multiple responses with a high wordcount.

I also have to laugh at myself for thinking "Flying Spaghetti Monster" when people said FSM and then scratching my head.

Last I want to say if you are interested in a free space meter then you are either new to TiVo or you need a larger hard drive. I know for a fact that people have been asking for this feature for at least 8 years. I would be willing to bet people have been asking for this feature for close to 10. 

I know its been at least eight years because thats when I was interested in such a feature. At the time I didn't understand the "A.I." behind the TiVo and thought I had to micromanage it like most other consumer electronics devices. It took a while but I finally understood that I had to teach the unit properly, give it enough space for my viewing habits and trust in its abilities. Once I did that the pressure lifted from my shoulders and I fell even deeper in love with my TiVo. 

Even though I am royally pissed off at TiVo for other problems (mostly the aspect ratio bug) I still have SIX units on my account and numerous that I have sold to others.


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## Chris Gerhard

Wow, this argument regarding a free space estimator has been going on for about 8.5 years. I recall seeing this discussion in October, 2000 right after I purchased my first TiVo DVR. I didn't care if the feature was added then and don't care if it is added now, it means absolutely nothing. Since so many seem to believe it means something to them, TiVo should add it to stop the silly discussion. It is complicated to explain why it would be worthless although without reading the reasons it isn't available, I don't know if it is too complicated to add.

Chris


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