# Virgin Media 1TB Tivo HD/3D - Details Emerging ...



## EdGillett

from: http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1490920&highlight=

Virgin Media announces details of new TiVo-powered next generation connected TV service

New HD/3D set top box will offer 1TB of personal storage
Thousands of hours of TV on Demand instantly available
Dedicated internal modem to bring internet services and apps direct to TV
Virgin Media today announced the first details of its upcoming TiVo-powered HD/3D set top box which will give customers a whopping 1 TeraByte of storage for personal recordings. The new HD/3D set top box will launch alongside Virgin Medias new TiVo-powered next generation connected TV service scheduled for later this year, and will be capable of storing up to 500 hours of content. When coupled with Virgin Medias pioneering TV on Demand service, the new service will give UK consumers unrivalled access to over 4,600 hours of TV shows, movies and music videos, including hundreds of hours of HD and 3D entertainment, plus catch up TV from the terrestrial broadcasters, all available instantly.

Powered by Virgin Medias unique fibre optic network, the box will also feature its own dedicated internal modem able to deliver HD video and other online services without impacting customers regular broadband connections. As a result, Virgin Medias new TiVo-powered service will not only be able to deliver linear TV alongside an unbeatable instant TV on demand offering but will also be able to support compelling online video in HD straight to customers TVs without having to sacrifice other online activities when in use.

blah blah ...

Where can I sign up?


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## warrenrb

Christ on a bike! Enough announcements! Just give us it already!


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## mikerr

The 3D is a surprise, but it's not as niche as you might think - I know a few people with 3D sets...
[edit] oops - 3d was actually already available on VM via all its HD boxes 

100Mb broadband, HD TiVo, spotify tie-up, on demand TV ... loving Virgin Media's new stuff at the moment 
- 2011 should be a good year (but only if you're in a cabled area!)


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## warrenrb

> but only if you're in a cabled area!


...and rich!


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## Nishikigoi

Just called Virgin and their 'Intranet' had it information with a soft launch next week........but shhh! 

About time my 3, S1 Tivos could be released into the wild or get a fitting Viking funeral!


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## Automan

Same size hard drive as my 10 year old Tivo 

I bet this new model will not be in use in 10 years time.

And of course in my area they will never be in use...

Automan.


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## PhilG

Pity about all us non-cabled areas though 



EdGillett said:


> from: http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1490920&highlight=
> 
> Virgin Media announces details of new TiVo-powered next generation connected TV service
> 
> New HD/3D set top box will offer 1TB of personal storage
> Thousands of hours of TV on Demand instantly available
> Dedicated internal modem to bring internet services and apps direct to TV
> Virgin Media today announced the first details of its upcoming TiVo-powered HD/3D set top box which will give customers a whopping 1 TeraByte of storage for personal recordings. The new HD/3D set top box will launch alongside Virgin Medias new TiVo-powered next generation connected TV service scheduled for later this year, and will be capable of storing up to 500 hours of content. When coupled with Virgin Medias pioneering TV on Demand service, the new service will give UK consumers unrivalled access to over 4,600 hours of TV shows, movies and music videos, including hundreds of hours of HD and 3D entertainment, plus catch up TV from the terrestrial broadcasters, all available instantly.
> 
> Powered by Virgin Medias unique fibre optic network, the box will also feature its own dedicated internal modem able to deliver HD video and other online services without impacting customers regular broadband connections. As a result, Virgin Medias new TiVo-powered service will not only be able to deliver linear TV alongside an unbeatable instant TV on demand offering but will also be able to support compelling online video in HD straight to customers TVs without having to sacrifice other online activities when in use.
> 
> blah blah ...
> 
> Where can I sign up?


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## ColinYounger

Interesting items from the article:



> The new HD/3D set top box will launch alongside Virgin Media's new TiVo-powered next generation connected TV service


Does this suggest that the TiVo offering will be a SaS (Software as a Service - i.e. cloud based)? Or TWO boxes?



> a typical family enjoying the new TiVo-powered TV service alongside Virgin Media's ultrafast 50Mb broadband connection


Oh - so you have to have minimum 50Mb service.



> <blank>


That's right - no mention of multiple tuners.


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## mikerr

ColinYounger said:


> Interesting items from the article:
> 
> Does this suggest that the TiVo offering will be a SaS (Software as a Service - i.e. cloud based)? Or TWO boxes?


Huh ? It's basically a TiVo Premiere with VM content and branding.(*)



> Oh - so you have to have minimum 50Mb service.


Nope - what that section means is the TiVo on-demand / youtube services operate using the broadband modem inside the TiVo box - _independant _ of whatever broadband you have.

So if you have 50Mb broadband from virgin, AND a VM TiVo you'll effectively have two seperate 50MB lines.



> That's right - no mention of multiple tuners.


Lol - of course it'll have multiple tuners  ..see (*)


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## warrenrb

Not to go off topic, but excitedly reading about TiVo Premiere on their site, I came across this little gem:



> TiVo in England
> 
> TiVo Series1 DVRs were sold in England beginning in 2000 and were available exclusively to customers of BSkyB. This box is no longer actively sold. The TiVo DVR from BSkyB in England will not work in the U.S. or with any service provider other than BSkyB.
> 
> TiVo Service Number prefix is 023.
> 
> If you already own a TiVo BSkyB box and require support, please call (from UK) 0844 2 410 703.
> 
> NOTE: TiVo products purchased in the United States will not work in England.


http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/318/kw/uk/session/L3NpZC9XcE5aOTdlaw==

Pretty clued-up stuff, eh? UK = England, and our Series 1's only work with BSkyB.


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## ColinYounger

Mike - I understand where you're coming from, however this is press release talk. It's more that's what is NOT said than what IS said.

Still been badgering VM for it, this afternoon though.


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## warrenrb

> Still been badgering VM for it, this afternoon though.


Any luck with that? What did they say? Was wondering if it was worth phoning yet.


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## ColinYounger

They say nothing, really. you can tell by their voices that they know something though - like they're talking through a knowing smile.

Anyway. Back to lurk mode.


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## mpk81

Still no pricing or proper release dates.
I'm currently a VM Broadband only customer and planning to be an early adopter if the price is reasonable.
It's starting to look like it will be next year before it's widely available.


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## cwaring

Bah! The one day of the week I'm hardly in the house is the day they choose to publish this info


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## royfox

cwaring said:


> Bah! The one day of the week I'm hardly in the house is the day they choose to publish this info


Carl... if you think that is bad... I'm in bloody China.. how do you think i feel? 
Roy


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## mikerr

I wonder how long it will take VirginMedia to surpass the original total number of UK TiVo subscribers?

V+ currently has abut 1 million V+ customers, representing 25% of all Virgin TV subscribers.

For nostalgia, here's the BBC News article first time around in 2000:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/945275.stm


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## Milhouse

mikerr said:


> I wonder how long it will take VirginMedia to surpass the original total number of UK TiVo subscribers?
> 
> V+ currently has abut 1 million V+ customers, representing 25% of all Virgin TV subscribers.
> 
> For nostalgia, here's the BBC News article first time around in 2000:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/945275.stm


Could probably exceed UK S1 subscribers with just the soft launch! 

I do hope they don't have any plans for their own version of Dosser & Joe though...


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## TCM2007

As they can push the new software to many of the existing V+ boxes, I'd say 30 seconds!


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## Davyburns

Nishikigoi said:


> Just called Virgin and their 'Intranet' had it information with a soft launch next week........but shhh!
> 
> About time my 3, S1 Tivos could be released into the wild or get a fitting Viking funeral!


Just rang them, and they told me there was indeed a soft launch realese next week, but it was in-house, and it would be next year before it would be released to the general publc


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## warrenrb

Dammit! They told us it would be 2010!  We've been waiting a year for this damn thing (and I've been holding off on V+ HD the whole time!).

They can't call launching to staff as launching before then end of the year.


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## cwaring

As I have said before, staff have had it themselves well before now. Don't forget that CS are usually the last to know anything 

I expect (well, hope) that it will indeed be a public launch before the end of the year, if only to a selected bunch for final "in the wild" testing.


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## EdGillett

from: http://vmhd.blogspot.com/2010/11/little-more-info-on-tivo-v-box.html

"Virgin Media will launch the new TiVo powered STB to internal staff for trials next week.
The new box, as stated in the press release will feature 1TB of storage. After launch we will see the integration of the new Spotify service and Facebook, along with the option to stream and back-up recorded content to LAN devices (laptop and other STB etc), just like the US TiVo.
A new "peanut" remote will also be introduced and will differ slightly from the standard TiVo remote. Remote record will also be added.
The service will use its own dedicated modem (10Mb) for online content. The new HD EPG looks great and the overall feel is just like the current TiVo Premiere in the US."

Yay! Peanut happiness ... and Premiere-ness. Here's hoping for expandable storage


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## EdGillett

... please VM, don't get rid of it - it's what makes Tivo Tivo


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## jodie98deg

I cannot express how incredibly excited I am about the prospect of owning TiVo again after such a long break for me. I had a Series 1 TiVo and I can honestly say it's the best PVR I've had the pleasure of owning. I currently have V+ HD and Sky HD and neither of the current systems even TIP the iceberg of TiVo's capabilities. 

Since then, technology has advanced in leaps and bounds and what used to be a flawless system is going to be ten times better with the new technology.


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## royfox

I've just spoke with "I want to leave department" at virgin and said I'm not happy waiting any longer for the promised TiVo. They advised that advertisement would start early 2011 with orders being taken q1 2011. 
It seems a pitty they have failed to deliver the recorder this side of Xmas.


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## cwaring

^ To be fair they never said they would


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## frobozz

royfox said:


> I've just spoke with "I want to leave department" at virgin and said I'm not happy waiting any longer for the promised TiVo. They advised that advertisement would start early 2011 with orders being taken q1 2011.
> It seems a pitty they have failed to deliver the recorder this side of Xmas.


Very disappointing! But what you describe sounds like the Launch not the so called 'soft launch' that has been much touted.

I don't know what a soft launch is either. I also note that noone has said anything about the rumoured launch to Virgin staff that was supposed to be happening this week. I fear there is a lot of misinformation circulating at present, which just reflects everyones desire to get their hands on the thing.


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## cwaring

frobozz said:


> I also note that noone has said anything about the rumoured launch to Virgin staff that was supposed to be happening this week.


And the public in general would need to know this because....?



> I fear there is a lot of misinformation circulating at present, which just reflects everyones desire to get their hands on the thing.


There is no mis-information from VM. There might be a lot of _mis-interpretation_ by some people, but that's not VMs fault.

They are, as far as I know, right on schedule.


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## TCM2007

cwaring said:


> They are, as far as I know, right on schedule.


There were definitely statements form VM and TiVo that the new TiVo would be out in 2010.



> Additionally, our work with Virgin Media to bring the TiVo experience to their UK subscribers continues to progress as we move closer to launching the platform by year-end.


http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1463492&highlight=virgin


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## cwaring

Yes. VM's original Press Release also mentions the "end of 2010" but VM then later went on to clarify that this would be a 'soft launch' with the _real_ push coming in the New Year.

So, as I said, right on target so far.


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## frobozz

cwaring said:


> And the public in general would need to know this because....?
> 
> There is no mis-information from VM. There might be a lot of _mis-interpretation_ by some people, but that's not VMs fault.
> 
> They are, as far as I know, right on schedule.


No reason for the general public to know about the internal workings of VM, I was just pointing out that last week this was being speculated about and those people are now quiet. Possibly because if was uninformed speculation.

I did not say that VM are misinforming us. It's all user speculation and largely unhelpful.


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## cwaring

Sorry


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## TCM2007

cwaring said:


> Yes. VM's original Press Release also mentions the "end of 2010" but VM then later went on to clarify that this would be a 'soft launch' with the _real_ push coming in the New Year.
> 
> So, as I said, right on target so far.


Well, if the customer service call above is right, the soft launch won't be til 2011.


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## cwaring

No. The launch to the public is next year. The 'soft launch' to a selected group, is _this_ year. Exactly as stated.


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## TCM2007

Letting staff members access a service is a beta test, not a soft launch. Soft launch is a public launch, sans marketing.


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## frobozz

TCM2007 said:


> Letting staff members access a service is a beta test, not a soft launch. S


I've not actually read any credible report that that is what will happen. Do you have any evidence?


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## cwaring

There's links all over the tech sites mentioning the soft launch, but there's no specifics about who will get the machines.


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## browellm

warrenrb said:


> Christ on a bike! Enough announcements! Just give us it already!


This.


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## Peter_Clements

Cable TV not allowed down our street and fastest broadband I can get is 2.5GB as a long way from the exchange.
Should I be excited? I think not.
Not unless TIVO can launch a Freeview via arial box.

Disappointed

Peter


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## childe

Carl - when you saw the new Tivo box did you notice if it allowed the pausing of live TV when viewing the menus. I find the lack of this feature to be intensly annoying in the V+box. I know the US version supports this feature, but the screen shot on another thread does not make it clear if the Virgin versin supports it.

thanks


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## cwaring

As this is basically a US S4 Tivo, and assuming that the VM version has all the same features (and there's no reason to suspect otherwise) yes it can.


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## frobozz

Not seen this page before. But nothing on it that isn't already known AFAICS (except a partial photo of the new box, and the page title is Tivo not Vivo:

hxxp://shop.virginmedia.com/tv/tivo.html


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## cwaring

http://shop.virginmedia.com/tv/tivo.html

Well.... looks like it really is happening; at long last


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## inahat

any idea of the cost? considering the price of V+, I don't expect it will be reasonable


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## frobozz

inahat said:


> any idea of the cost? considering the price of V+, I don't expect it will be reasonable


On the above link it says not "too much"


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## Tony Hoyle

inahat said:


> any idea of the cost? considering the price of V+, I don't expect it will be reasonable


It's a Tivo.. 3 kidneys and 2 right arms is considered reasonable


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## cwaring

frobozz said:


> On the above link it says not "too much"


It actually says ... "We can't say too much yet...", obviously referring to the product as a whole, so  right back at ya; and learn to read properly 


Tony Hoyle said:


> It's a Tivo.. 3 kidneys and 2 right arms is considered reasonable


Well was expecting an arm and a leg myself so one of us will be close


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## frobozz

Tony Hoyle said:


> It's a Tivo.. 3 kidneys and 2 right arms is considered reasonable


It's unreasonable for anyone to give up 2 kidneys, so I guess that means it's only for families of 3 or more people. Damn, my kids have left home.


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## Tony Hoyle

Have to admit an arm and a leg is much more reasonable.. I could afford two Tivos then.

Do your neighbours have any kidneys they're not using?


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## frobozz

Two gentlemen live next door, Mr Burke and Mr Hare. I've just asked them and they said they should be able to help out


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## mikerr

inahat said:


> any idea of the cost? considering the price of V+, I don't expect it will be reasonable


Cheapest TV package with V+ is £17.50 pm with £89 install

It's free on the higher packages though - the best value deals are if you take all 3 TV, broadband, and phone for around £35 pm

Those are standard prices - VM are quite flexible with monthly pricing if you push them on the phone...


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## inahat

mikerr said:


> Cheapest TV package with V+ is £17.50 pm with £89 install
> 
> It's free on the higher packages though - the best value deals are if you take all 3 TV, broadband, and phone for around £35 pm
> 
> Those are standard prices - VM are quite flexible with monthly pricing if you push them on the phone...


as I thought. unreasonable. plus the extra £10 per month for Tivo 

Paid around £150?? for v+ when it first came out, so I expect the new box will have a similar price tag.

As we all know Tivo is brilliant, but if they offer this as an upgrade to V+, rather than as a straight replacement, then I can't see many people taking the plunge.


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## mikerr

inahat said:


> as I thought. unreasonable. plus the extra £10 per month for Tivo


I don't think you will pay any extra for TiVo - it's replacing V+ in the lineup AIUI


> Paid around £150?? for v+ when it first came out, so I expect the new box will have a similar price tag


I got it for free at launch when it was called TVDrive - but I had 2 cable boxes and full package at the time.


> As we all know Tivo is brilliant, but if they offer this as an upgrade to V+, rather than as a straight replacement, then I can't see many people taking the plunge.


Agreed - I don't think there is room for two models of HDD PVR in VM's lineup.

AIUI the TiVo is replacing V+ as the VM PVR, so new customers ordering the PVR will get TiVo, existing customers will probably have to pay an install, or find a reason why their existing needs replacing.

Cable has always worked this way - you don't own the equipment, so you may be using a 5 year old Pace cable box, but if it breaks, they'll replace with a brand new V Box.


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## warrenrb

mikerr said:


> Cable has always worked this way - you don't own the equipment, so you may be using a 5 year old Pace cable box, but if it breaks, they'll replace with a brand new V Box.


Actually, rather disappointingly, my silver Samsung box died a couple of months ago, and I thought I'd get a nice new V HD box, but the engineer just put another silver Samsung in it's place. 

I commented on it, and he said "You have to pay to get the new ones".


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## cwaring

mikerr said:


> ...existing customers will ... have to ....find a reason why their existing needs replacing.


It's a Tivo. _That's_ the reason right there


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## shabbadoof13

mailing list to join now

http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/international/tivo-virgin-media.html


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## hornist

I rang customer services this morning, because I want to subscribe to VM services when I return to live in the UK in a month or so (I was also a VM customer before going to live abroad). I asked about the new TiVO box because, while I need to get phone and internet set up as soon as I return, I want to make sure I can have the TiVO for my TV service once it is launched.

The CS rep (who was very helpful btw) said the TiVO would be launched 'in the spring', and said that pricing was not available yet.


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## cwaring

shabbadoof13 said:


> mailing list to join now
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/international/tivo-virgin-media.html


Well, if you want to only hear about it, that's probably the one to fill in. Personally, I'd just need to keep an eye on this page: http://shop.virginmedia.com/tv/tivo.html

@hornist Take no notice of CS reps. They're usually the last to know _anything_ about new products and services. They can only talk about and sell what is _currently_ available


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## frobozz

Pocket-lint.com is reporting the following:

Virgin Media has unveiled the first glimpse of its forthcoming TiVo-powered box which Pocket-lint understands to be on the back of installers' vans for initial roll-out in December. It is planned that a select number of Virgin Media customers will have the product in time for Christmas.

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/36837/virgin-media-tivo-box-teased

Truth or not, you decide. But if true how do I get into VM goodbooks? I'm already on TV XL!


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## EdGillett

warrenrb said:


> Christ on a bike! Enough announcements! Just give us it already!


This. Again.

At least it's really real and not vapourware.

That's def a Tivo Premiere remote. Good. That had better be a sexy looking Tivo under that sheet - who make the Tivo Premiere box in the states? I know Cisco are producing the VM Tivo.


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## kandinsky

Saw this on another forum today....


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## TCM2007

mikerr said:


> AIUI the TiVo is replacing V+ as the VM PVR, so new customers ordering the PVR will get TiVo, existing customers will probably have to pay an install, or find a reason why their existing needs replacing.


Virgin's stated objective has been to have the V+ software on existing boxes replaced with Tivo via a software download, presumably for free. Apparently they've hit some issues with some hardware configurations, but it still is the plan AFAIK?


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## cwaring

frobozz said:


> Pocket-lint.com is reporting the following:...


Interesting. I couldn't get a thing out of their Press Office, and I personally know the head man there 


EdGillett said:


> That had better be a sexy looking Tivo under that sheet...


You can believe me when I say that is definately is


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## frobozz

cwaring said:


> Interesting. I couldn't get a thing out of their Press Office, and I personally know the head man there


Out of interest do you have any idea, historically, how soon before a significant event/launch that the press office get details?


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## cwaring

Sorry. Not a clue.


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## deshepherd

mikerr said:


> AIUI the TiVo is replacing V+ as the VM PVR, so new customers ordering the PVR will get TiVo, existing customers will probably have to pay an install, or find a reason why their existing needs replacing.
> 
> Cable has always worked this way - you don't own the equipment, so you may be using a 5 year old Pace cable box, but if it breaks, they'll replace with a brand new V Box.


More correctly I think its you get whatever model the engineer has in his van when he comes ... I remember lots of debate a year or so ago on whether if you ordered V+ you'd get the old SciAtlanta model or the newer Samsung + lots of existing subscribers with SciAtlanta boxes wondering if they phoned in a fault they'd get swapped to a Samsung - seemed to be a complete lottery for some time as to whether a van had a stock of new Samsung, old SciAtlantas or a mix (in which case some engineers would allow someone who knew the difference to choose).

So I wouldn't order V+ in the hope that when it turned up it would be a V-TiVo


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## cwaring

deshepherd said:


> More correctly I think its you get whatever model the engineer has in his van when he comes ...


Absolutely right.


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## cwaring

A thought recently occured  Is there any reason to think that any of these remotes _won't_ work with the new VM Tivo?


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## frobozz

cwaring said:


> A thought recently occured  Is there any reason to think that any of these remotes _won't_ work with the new VM Tivo?


I wondered that too. The last paragraph about the slide says:

"Compatible with all TiVo Series3, TiVo HD/HD XL, and Premiere/Premiere XL boxes. (If you received your TiVo Premiere from RCN, check back for updates on the availability of TiVo Slide for your box.)"

From the,admittedly, very limited research I've done. RCN Tivo's 'on demand' content shows up in searches and listings, which is, I think the main/only difference from ordinary Premier devices, and therefore probably similar to VMs Tivo. Extrapolating further, if RCN Tivo's don't work with the Slide maybe the VM one will not either.


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## ...coolstream

I've got a few Fray Bentos Steak and Kidney Pies. Does that count.....


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## cwaring

It's early so I may be only half awake but... huh?  Anyone else actually _get_ that?


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## CarlWalters

no, but I am starting to feel peckish.


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## warrenrb

Over on the Cable forum, Media Boy (who seems to know about this stuff) says it'll be March now for TiVo.


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## royfox

I suppose it's better they iron out any issues before release.. but it would be nice to get it for Crimbo.. oh well


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## baward

Does anyone know if "watching HD TV on demand won't affect your broadband speed" in VM's press release (http://shop.virginmedia.com/tv/tivo.html) mean that us non-cabled folks won't miss out when Sky hand over to Virgin?

Thanks,
Ben


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## AMc

baward said:


> Does anyone know if "watching HD TV on demand won't affect your broadband speed" in VM's press release (http://shop.virginmedia.com/tv/tivo.html) mean that us non-cabled folks won't miss out when Sky hand over to Virgin?


"watching HD TV on demand won't affect your broadband speed" means the Virgin Cable Tivo will have its own broadband modem in addition to the one Virgin supply for their cable broadband customers. So a household with a Virgin Cable Tivo will be able to use the VOD without it affecting the download speed or network latency for the rest of the household. To the network it will be two separate connections. If they'd shared the connection then VOD would degrade the service for any computer users in the same household which would be a pain.

I don't think we've had any communication about existing series 1 users other than monthly subscriptions direct debits have been temporarily suspended during the switchover.

As far as a non-cable Virgin Tivo there has been no news, only speculation that it could be possible based on Virgin's ADSL subscriber base and previous Freeview set top boxes. I'm hoping for the best but not expecting anything in the near future, certainly not until Virgin have done a full roll out to their cable base.


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## dvdfever

Anyone know if it can be networked, with a view to taking programmes from it onto my PC? Ta.


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## cwaring

That certainlyis a feature of the US version. I believe it requires the purchase of a seperate PC-based product though; but it's not expensive... around $25 I think.

According to VM web programmability (sort of like Tivoweb I assume) is a feature that will be made available but "not from the beginning", the last I heard.


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## baward

AMc said:


> "watching HD TV on demand won't affect your broadband speed" means the Virgin Cable Tivo will have its own broadband modem in addition to the one Virgin supply for their cable broadband customers.


Thanks for your reply!

Ben


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## ...coolstream

> It's early so I may be only half awake but... huh? Anyone else actually get that?


It was in relation to it costing an arm and a leg. I made the reply before I realised that there was a second page of replies


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## ColinYounger

Last paragraph of this article is interesting.


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## laurence

Next week 
Is it worth waiting in case lifetime TiVo owners get some sort of deal? Or am I dreaming? Be great to have one to play with over Christmas, but I'll really miss the old and faithful grey box.


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## kandinsky

This would be useful....


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## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> As this is basically a US S4 Tivo, and assuming that the VM version has all the same features (and there's no reason to suspect otherwise) yes it can.


So that makes it a rebadged Tivo Premiere then? Beore we all get too excited have you searched the other forums on this board about how flaky the Premiere is.....

...think I'll stick to my good old S1.

On a slightly separate note, my internet gets throttled if I go over a certain amount of traffic (3 gig or something I think, never really notice it) but then it cuts right back on the speed.

Streaming high-def over the net is a real bandwidth killer, where did VM suddenly find all this spare capacity from?


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## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> So that makes it a rebadged Tivo Premiere then?


Not absolutely certain there's no bespoke stuff in it 



> Beore we all get too excited have you searched the other forums on this board about how flaky the Premiere is.....


Flakey how exactly?



> ...think I'll stick to my good old S1.


Fine. You do that. I'll have a shiny new one thanks


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## Ovit-UK

Have we any idea as yet how those of us who are still using their S1 Tivos are going to be affected (if at all) by the introduction of the new machine?


I still have mine hooked up to my SkyHD and its still going strong alongside my V+ box but will jump at the chance to get the new machine if its ever offered (but would be happy to continue using my beloved Series 1).

Is their any reason I wont be able to operate both at the same time?




Ovit.


----------



## Davyburns

kandinsky said:


> This would be useful....


Its not available in iTunes yet, at least not in the UK


----------



## qwiki

Just spotted this on prices to new and existing customers:-

http://vmhd.blogspot.com/2010/11/virgin-media-tivo-prices.html


----------



## cwaring

I'll believe it when it's officially announced.


----------



## PhilG

Ovit-UK said:


> Have we any idea as yet how those of us who are still using their S1 Tivos are going to be affected (if at all) by the introduction of the new machine?
> 
> I still have mine hooked up to my SkyHD and its still going strong alongside my V+ box but will jump at the chance to get the new machine if its ever offered (but would be happy to continue using my beloved Series 1).
> 
> Is their any reason I wont be able to operate both at the same time?
> 
> Ovit.


Hopefully they'll co-exist or those of us NOT in a Virgin cabled area are going to be pretty miffed


----------



## deshepherd

qwiki said:


> Just spotted this on prices to new and existing customers:-
> 
> http://vmhd.blogspot.com/2010/11/virgin-media-tivo-prices.html


These prices are clearly not true ... they charge existing customers less than new customers and that just isn't the VM way of doing things !!


----------



## Ovit-UK

PhilG said:


> Hopefully they'll co-exist or those of us NOT in a Virgin cabled area are going to be pretty miffed


Yeah thats a very big point but is something thats been worrying me, has there been any mention of whats going to happen to those of us with lifetime subs (the pay monthly customers are a different dilema) are we still gonna be supported when the new V.N setup gets going?

Are we gonna be offered anything to migrate from the old system or will both continue seperately?

Are Sky still running the old system or has that switched to V.M?

Ovit.


----------



## qwiki

deshepherd said:


> These prices are clearly not true ... they charge existing customers less than new customers and that just isn't the VM way of doing things !!


You may be right. We'll have to wait for the official announcement.

I posted the link for information and never said it was fact. Sorry if I mislead anyone. If I didn't post it, I'm sure someone else would have.


----------



## cwaring

deshepherd said:


> These prices are clearly not true ... they charge existing customers less than new customers and that just isn't the VM way of doing things !!


As does BT... and PlusNet... and NewNet .... every other ISP. Nothing new there then.



Ovit-UK said:


> Are Sky still running the old system or has that switched to V.M?


I suspect that it's moved to VM; hence the 'payment holiday' for those still paying monthly, whilst they sort it all out.


----------



## Milhouse

deshepherd said:


> These prices are clearly not true ... they charge existing customers less than new customers and that just isn't the VM way of doing things !!


Original source for the prices is here - you're not alone with your scepticism, but who knows maybe VM are doing the right thing for once. We'll only know for sure once the prices are made official...


----------



## nbaker

Nah, there going to null all lifetime subs as there will no doubt be a get out clause and will up the charge monthly on subs.

Let hope not but always possible, me I will be getting a new Virgin Tivo ASAP


----------



## mikerr

First in-depth review:

http://www.techradar.com/news/telev...media-powered-by-tivo-912071?src=rss&attr=all

CNET is saying the pricing is:

The TiVo box will be available in mid-December. Magic powers don't come cheap: the box itself costs £200, followed by a £26.50 per month charge. If you don't have a Virgin phone line, that fee goes up to £32.50. Installation costs £40.

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/homecinema/...box-to-give-your-telly-magic-powers-50001845/

Official link:

http://tivo.virginmedia.com/


----------



## Milhouse

New VM/TiVo press release.



> Virgin Media TV powered by TiVo will begin to roll-out from mid-December. Standard price of £199**, plus £26.50 per month*** for the XL TiVo package which features over 160 channels, an unrivalled TV on demand library and access to all standard HD channels. For further information, or to register for interest in the Virgin Media TV powered by TiVo service, visit: www.virginmedia.com/TiVo.
> 
> *Notes to Editors:*
> * The service is launching with two tuners and will be updated with three tuners in early 2011.
> ** Standard £40 installation costs apply.
> *** When taken with a Virgin phone line. Monthly cost is £32.50 when taken without a phone line.


----------



## deshepherd

mikerr said:


> First in-depth review:
> 
> http://www.techradar.com/news/telev...media-powered-by-tivo-912071?src=rss&attr=all
> 
> CNET is saying the pricing is:
> 
> The TiVo box will be available in mid-December. Magic powers don't come cheap: the box itself costs £200, followed by a £26.50 per month charge. If you don't have a Virgin phone line, that fee goes up to £32.50. Installation costs £40.
> 
> http://crave.cnet.co.uk/homecinema/...box-to-give-your-telly-magic-powers-50001845/
> 
> Official link:
> 
> http://tivo.virginmedia.com/


So that's £240 for box and install and extra £3/month above standard XL charge.

? does this include the £49 "HD activation fee"

Bit more than I'd been hoping for (hoped would be nearer the £150 mark that V+ started at) but expect I'll still sign up for this - though may wait until after New Year in case there's any evidence of "deals" available.


----------



## clinteastman

deshepherd said:


> So that's £240 for box and install and extra £3/month above standard XL charge.
> 
> ? does this include the £49 "HD activation fee"
> 
> Bit more than I'd been hoping for (hoped would be nearer the £150 mark that V+ started at) but expect I'll still sign up for this - though may wait until after New Year in case there's any evidence of "deals" available.


I think the £199 is the "TiVo Activation" fee.


----------



## Milhouse

From the demo video:



> Missed a show? Go back in time through the guide and "unmiss" last weeks episode


Alright... that's a cool and possibly perfect way to blend a PVR with VoD. :up:

Hopefully the scheduler can take advantage of the "umiss" feature so that if both tuners are tied up it can resolve the conflict once a tuner becomes free, assuming tuners are even required to record VoD (and assuming VoD can be recorded).


----------



## deshepherd

clinteastman said:


> I think the £199 is the "TiVo Activation" fee.


Sort of ... its the cost to get the box which comes with the TiVo features. However, both the V-HD and V+ boxes have costs to obtain and while both are capable of receiving HD channels you have to pay an additional £49 to get the HD activated.

So question is whether the TiVo box comes with HD pre-activated or whether, like V-HD and V+, the initial acquisition and install fees only set it up for use on SD channels and you then need to pay an extra £49 to get the HD channels "activated"


----------



## deshepherd

Milhouse said:


> Alright... that's a cool and possibly perfect way to blend a PVR with VoD. :up:
> 
> Hopefully the scheduler can take advantage of the "umiss" feature so that if both tuners are tied up it can resolve the conflict once a tuner becomes free, assuming tuners are even required to record VoD (and assuming VoD can be recorded).


I suspect this is just a scheduler based interface to VoD ... i.e. instead of having a seperate set of menus for VoD catchup (e.g. like the current V-box catchup menus) you use the same schedule interface and instead of going forward to mark programs to record you can go back and select a program to watch immediately via VoD.


----------



## Milhouse

deshepherd said:


> I suspect this is just a scheduler based interface to VoD ... i.e. instead of having a seperate set of menus for VoD catchup (e.g. like the current V-box catchup menus) you use the same schedule interface and instead of going forward to mark programs to record you can go back and select a program to watch immediately via VoD.


Hopefully, and that's how it looks in the video - the EPG works seamlessly forwards (broadcast) and backwards (VoD). I also hope you can "record" a VoD programme in case they are only available for a limited period (ie. one week), and if VoD recording is permitted then the scheduler should be able to record from VoD automatically when all the tuners are in use... top that, Sky.


----------



## Gavin

deshepherd said:


> So that's £240 for box and install and extra £3/month above standard XL charge.
> 
> ? does this include the £49 "HD activation fee"


Not happening for us. Too much and too late. The Freesat PVR is no where near as good as our S1 Tivo, but given that was £299 at launch with no more costs, I can't see us going for this. We have VM TV (the M package), the box is never even plugged in and the only reason we have that as well as Freesat is if we cancel it and just have broadband and phone the package price goes up, I know, don't ask...

We don't watch a lot of TV, we certainly would not pay for movie channels and a lot of the "extra channels" in XL are the +1 variant. If you have a two / three tuner PVR with 7 day catch up you'll not need them most of the time.

Thought after I hit save. The Humax does iPlayer to the TV, itv and fives player should be coming soon, and if panasonic ever pull there finger out we'll be able to watch iPLayer "in tv" rather than via the Humax. More of a faf but not £30 a month worth of extra effort...


----------



## clinteastman

deshepherd said:


> Sort of ... its the cost to get the box which comes with the TiVo features. However, both the V-HD and V+ boxes have costs to obtain and while both are capable of receiving HD channels you have to pay an additional £49 to get the HD activated.
> 
> So question is whether the TiVo box comes with HD pre-activated or whether, like V-HD and V+, the initial acquisition and install fees only set it up for use on SD channels and you then need to pay an extra £49 to get the HD channels "activated"


I though the "HD Activation Fee" and the cost of getting the box is one in the same, with an install fee of £40 (same for all the boxes)? If not what's the cost of getting the box?


----------



## baward

Milhouse said:


> New VM/TiVo press release.


Dear Santa....


----------



## royfox

I have to say, I think the Virgin video demo / advert is truly excellent. :up::up:

I love the way it's delivered, bit by bit, asking, "can you handle more".. I love the language used in it.. :up::up:

Bloody well done Virgin... at last a Tivo advert showing a small bit of this versatile technology..

It seems the launch is close which is very good news. What would be excellent if Virgin approached a handful of us series 1 owners and ask us to write reviews.. that would give the product an in-depth knowledge based report.. such things like.. can you freeze live tv whilst going into menus, then return to kick off where you froze etc.


----------



## Milhouse

The demo video is very good, but obviously has the time to describe all (or most of) the features.

I'm looking forward to the VM TiVo television adverts (assuming they will be shown on non-VM channels) as it will be interesting to see how well Virgin "sell" TiVo in 30 seconds, 10 years on from the disastrous efforts first time around.


----------



## qwiki

Just signed up for interest.

Roll on Christmas(ish).


----------



## Milhouse

Just noticed they're using "Series Link" terminology for the VM TiVo, presumably that's more relevant to the UK than "Season Pass" as "Series" is more of a UK expression, and the concept of a "Series Link" should now be an easier sell thanks to Sky doing the heavy lifting over the last few years.

Shame though, I prefer "Season Pass" and using dual terms will be confusing. If only Sky had trademarked Series Link...


----------



## warrenrb

Yes, I thought that a shame too - I like Season Pass.

I'm excited as hell about the whole thing, but I have to say the interface is rather 'busy' to me, with all those pictures at the top. I LOVE our classic blue one - not dated at all, after all this time.

Pre-Xmas rollout would be awesome, but I guess having waited since Nov 2009 (the original announcement) I won't be surprised to wait some more.

I've been wanting to upgrade to XL and HD for AGES, but have been holding off since the announcement. HD for Xmas would have been nice.

The price is a bit high (it is hard to rationalise 200 quid for a box that you don't actually own - it's a wonder they can get away with it really), but like many on here, I paid 200 for my TiVo and 200 lifetime sub, and I guess ownership doesn't really matter that much (at least they fix it if it dies). 

If it is effectively 3 quid a month for the service, on top of XL, then we get 66 months (or 5.5 years) before we are down on another &#163;200 lifetime sub price. Not too bad at all (especially if you are one of those who paid 10 a month!).


----------



## mikerr

Note the series link menu says "view _available_ episodes", not "upcoming episodes".
- So presumably that will also show previous episodes(from on demand) too..

Doesn't come with the qwerty remote, though VM say other remotes may be available later
- I have the US bluetooth qwerty peanut here though, so I'll be able to test it as soon as they give me the new box


----------



## Milhouse

I'm excited about this even though I can't get VM (have SkyHD) - the VM TiVo is obviously great for those with access to VM, but it's also going to knock SkyHD into a cocked hat so it will be interesting to see how Sky up their game and without charging more only to remain competitive (I'm sure that will really p off the Murdochs as increasing ARPU is all they care about).

The limiting factor to this battle is going to be the nature of the VM network. I've just had my road and surrounding area dug up for the last two weeks by npower laying new conduits - a perfect opportunity for VM to extend their network, but no.


----------



## cwaring

This has all happened since I was last infront of a PC (around 2pm).

Sucky timing, as usual Carl


----------



## mikerr

The iPad app will also be coming to VM: http://www.techradar.com/news/compu...-app-will-come-to-virgin-media-service-912206

I see no mention of home networking - transfer/stream shows to/from tivo like the US model has
- but they have so many new features to show off, that the above may be lower down the list.

I'm surprised it has youtube, twitter,facebook and ebay(!) access from launch, though spotify is to come later.


----------



## hokkers999

mikerr said:


> First in-depth review:
> 
> http://www.techradar.com/news/telev...media-powered-by-tivo-912071?src=rss&attr=all
> 
> CNET is saying the pricing is:
> 
> The TiVo box will be available in mid-December. Magic powers don't come cheap: the box itself costs £200, followed by a £26.50 per month charge. If you don't have a Virgin phone line, that fee goes up to £32.50. Installation costs £40.
> 
> http://crave.cnet.co.uk/homecinema/...box-to-give-your-telly-magic-powers-50001845/
> 
> Official link:
> 
> http://tivo.virginmedia.com/


Hmmm, stick with my lifetime sub S1 or get ripped a new one by those con merchants at VM??

If I'm "renting" the box, as far as an up front £200 goes, well there are two eff's in it.

Even Sky don't charge for Sky+ features, let alone £26.50 a month.


----------



## hokkers999

royfox said:


> I have to say, I think the Virgin video demo / advert is truly excellent. :up::up:
> 
> I love the way it's delivered, bit by bit, asking, "can you handle more".. I love the language used in it.. :up::up:
> 
> Bloody well done Virgin... at last a Tivo advert showing a small bit of this versatile technology..
> 
> It seems the launch is close which is very good news. What would be excellent if Virgin approached a handful of us series 1 owners and ask us to write reviews.. that would give the product an in-depth knowledge based report.. such things like.. can you freeze live tv whilst going into menus, then return to kick off where you froze etc.


I watched the video and sat there thinking "boring" there is nothing there that my 10 year old S1 can't do. In fact I'm willing to bet my old S1 can do more - like download to my pc and upload stuff the other way.

How many of you were like me horrified when it played some video footage off my pc? It had scanned my hard drive without asking permission....

Given that hd video is a bandwidth killer where did VM suddenly find all the spare capacity from???


----------



## Milhouse

hokkers999 said:


> If I'm "renting" the box, as far as an up front £200 goes, well there are two eff's in it.


I don't see the problem with rental or purchasing. A SkyHD box will set you back up to £250 and has only a 12 month warranty - if it [email protected] out after 12 months you're up a creek without a paddle.

If your £200 VM rental box dies after 12 months, 24 months or however many months it will always be replaced. As someone who had to deal with a faulty SkyHD box after 18 months (I eventually upgraded the PSU with a kit from the internet) I think I'd prefer the rental model in all honesty.



hokkers999 said:


> Even Sky don't charge for Sky+ features, let alone £26.50 a month.


Sky do charge £10.25/month for HD though, and VM are charging £3/month as a TiVo "premium" (ie. on top of the standard XL £23.50/month package). I think VM also charge £7/month for HD, so in essence they're neck and neck.


----------



## Milhouse

hokkers999 said:


> Given that hd video is a bandwidth killer where did VM suddenly find all the spare capacity from???


It's called a fibre network.

As for everything else you said in your post, seriously?


----------



## hokkers999

deshepherd said:


> Sort of ... its the cost to get the box which comes with the TiVo features. However, both the V-HD and V+ boxes have costs to obtain and while both are capable of receiving HD channels you have to pay an additional £49 to get the HD activated.
> 
> So question is whether the TiVo box comes with HD pre-activated or whether, like V-HD and V+, the initial acquisition and install fees only set it up for use on SD channels and you then need to pay an extra £49 to get the HD channels "activated"


If it's the cost "to get the box" then that means that I own it then? and can do what I like it with it....if not then they can shove it.

S1's for ever.


----------



## warrenrb

Seriously though... nothing your S1 can't do?

How about we start with HD? Or recording two channels at once?


----------



## hokkers999

Milhouse said:


> It's called a fibre network.
> 
> As for everything else you said in your post, seriously?


Suggest you go and have a read here about how VM are unable to service even their existing internet base let alone the enormous bandwidth hog called streaming hd video.

Do a search on traffic management

www.nthellworld.co.uk


----------



## hokkers999

warrenrb said:


> Seriously though... nothing your S1 can't do?
> 
> How about we start with HD? Or recording two channels at once?


HD - big deal.

As for two channels at once, you do know about all the +1 channels, plus the whole point of the Tivo is that it records the entire series for me, WHENEVER it is shown.


----------



## ColinYounger

hokkers999 said:


> [general bile]


We get it - you don't like VM. Stick with your S1 and go back under the bridge.


----------



## Milhouse

hokkers999 said:


> Suggest you go and have a read here about how VM are unable to service even their existing internet base let alone the enormous bandwidth hog called streaming hd video.
> 
> Do a search on traffic management
> 
> www.nthellworld.co.uk


Who knows what they're doing behind the scenes, the fact remains they own the infra and their fibre network can easily support HD streaming. Peering to the internet may or may not be capacity constrained, but that's a whole different ball game - VoD only requires access from a VM TiVo to a VM server over the VM network, piece of p1ss.


----------



## Milhouse

hokkers999 said:


> HD - big deal.
> 
> As for two channels at once, you do know about all the +1 channels, plus the whole point of the Tivo is that it records the entire series for me, WHENEVER it is shown.


VoD
HD
3D
Downloadable apps
BBC iPlayer
YouTube
Remote scheduling (yes I know we have TiVo Web)
Facebook, Twitter etc. for people who like that sort of thing
iPad access

Seriously, stop being a mong.


----------



## mikerr

The TiVo has its own unthrottled network interface. 
Traffic management is for your broadband cable modem.

It's just plain silly to compare our old S1 TiVos with a new 3 tuner HD system !
.. before even starting on on demand stuff, which is a huge part of it.

As for downloading/uploading shows - the US models its based on have that too - this one may well do - VM have a lot of features to describe - just because its not in this first advert/demo doesn't mean it isn't there.


----------



## hokkers999

ColinYounger said:


> We get it - you don't like VM. Stick with your S1 and go back under the bridge.


Ho ho. I am a vm customer.


----------



## clinteastman

hokkers999 said:


> Given that hd video is a bandwidth killer where did VM suddenly find all the spare capacity from???


They switched off analog.


----------



## royfox

hokkers999 said:


> I watched the video and sat there thinking "boring" there is nothing there that my 10 year old S1 can't do. In fact I'm willing to bet my old S1 can do more - like download to my pc and upload stuff the other way.
> 
> How many of you were like me horrified when it played some video footage off my pc? It had scanned my hard drive without asking permission....
> 
> Given that hd video is a bandwidth killer where did VM suddenly find all the spare capacity from???


I think you misread my post. I wasn't commenting on the features of the box, purely that the advertisement / demo has been extremely well executed.
One of the main reasons why we are all still using S1's is due to the fact that Tivo failed miserably last time to promote what the box. If more had been done to make customers aware, perhaps we would all be on S3 or S4 by now..


----------



## Milhouse

I hope it still makes the TiVo S1 "budoop" sounds - would be gutted if it doesn't, that's part of the unique TiVo experience and I wouldn't want VM customers to miss out on that!


----------



## TCM2007

hokkers999 said:


> How many of you were like me horrified when it played some video footage off my pc? It had scanned my hard drive without asking permission...?


----------



## stevelup

Milhouse said:


> I hope it still makes the TiVo S1 "budoop" sounds - would be gutted if it doesn't, that's part of the unique TiVo experience and I wouldn't want VM customers to miss out on that!


It does indeed make all the same noises. Quite nostalgic hearing that after so long!


----------



## mikerr

Just to remind you of the advertising our original TiVos got in 2000:




No wonder few people knew about it...


----------



## TCM2007

There was press advertising too, we took a fair few ads in T3.


----------



## scoopuk

Gavin said:


> ...The Freesat PVR is no where near as good as our S1 Tivo, but given that was £299 at launch with no more costs, I can't see us going for this. .......


Now I may be remembering this incorrectly but I'm sure I paid £400 for my TiVo on that great day all those years ago to my now-closed neighbourhood Dixons store. At the time I banged on about it being the best £400 I'd spent on anything, ever. I still think so.

But I want one of these new fangled HD megaTiVos, I'd even put up with being a cable customer, but I can't. Our street isn't cabled - even though we're virtually in central London. Anyone know how can I persuade Virgin to cable my street ? Otherwise I'm seriously thinking of moving house !


----------



## jodie98deg

stevelup said:


> It does indeed make all the same noises. Quite nostalgic hearing that after so long!


That's such good news. I was hoping we'd have that same peanut remote sound.


----------



## baward

It's kind of expected, but at the same time very depressing, but here's what I received from someone at VM this afternoon in response to me asking him "What about us existing non-cabled Tivo S1 folk?":

"the TiVo service will only operate in a cable area - the TV service runs over this and needs the cable bandwidth to bring together the TV, VoD and online content.

We are looking at ways to bring the service out further, but this would not be a 'quick' solution - and copper telephone wires would certainly not be able to cope."

Part of me is wondering, have they actually considered this issue? It would have helped if he'd fully answered my question - I never expected that we could get HD down copper wires!


----------



## ...coolstream

I don't know if I have skipped past an announcement of this, but I have just found this

http://tivo.virginmedia.com/?buspart=portal_tivo_3

I know the video shows 'skipping' back in the programme guide to shows you might have missed. (The S1 couldn't even skip back to read programme info), but as already stated, this is a neat way to link tivo features we already know with VOD). It would be interesting to know if the VOD would include everything (video says we have recorded the best of), so probably content would be no different to what we alredy have (with Virgin VOD).

Anyway, I thought it worth giving a 'heads up' to anyone that hasn't seen this already


----------



## Milhouse

baward said:


> We are looking at ways to bring the service out further, but this would not be a 'quick' solution - and copper telephone wires would certainly not be able to cope."


If they can do HD over a 10Mbit connection I'm pretty sure they can do it over my 20Mbit uncapped ADSL/copper connection (courtesy O2/Be), unless they think they will have problems streaming from the VM servers on to the internet, which is possible (since their current solution is entirely under their control, end to end).

I still wanna know why they didn't speak to npower while they dug up my entire road and surrounding area. Last time we had someone on here asking us for "in fill"/"back fill" locations I contacted VM only to be given the usual "we don't have the capacity/cash to do anything in your area anytime in the next decade". Waste of time, basically.


----------



## OzSat

...coolstream said:


> I know the video shows 'skipping' back in the programme guide to shows you might have missed. (The S1 couldn't even skip back to read programme info)


Unless I am misunderstanding you - my TiVo allows me to go back up to 48 hours in the past in the listings.


----------



## mikerr

Milhouse said:


> If they can do HD over a 10Mbit connection


On demand HD isn't actually streamed over their cable modems, the built in cable modem on the new box is used for internet content like youtube, facebook and twitter.


----------



## scoopuk

Milhouse said:


> I still wanna know why they didn't speak to npower while they dug up my entire road and surrounding area. Last time we had someone on here asking us for "in fill"/"back fill" locations I contacted VM only to be given the usual "we don't have the capacity/cash to do anything in your area anytime in the next decade". Waste of time, basically.


Yes my experience was similar, worse in fact - the VM call centre (which clearly wasn't in the UK) just kept repeating "we don't do cable in your area" and couldn't understand why I wanted to find out HOW to get cable in my area in the future or what I might do about it. If VM can't cable a heavily populated area like London N7 - what chance anywhere else ? Has anyone ever found a way of getting them interested ?


----------



## Milhouse

scoopuk said:


> Yes my experience was similar, worse in fact - the VM call centre (which clearly wasn't in the UK) just kept repeating "we don't do cable in your area" and couldn't understand why I wanted to find out HOW to get cable in my area in the future or what I might do about it. If VM can't cable a heavily populated area like London N7 - what chance anywhere else ? Has anyone ever found a way of getting them interested ?


I can actually receive a VM digital cable signal in my property - an engineer even left me with a fully functioning cable digi box (it was still Telewest at the time) for a couple of weeks while he sourced a replacement analogue box - and they still won't allow me to sign up.

So no, I don't think there is a way to get them interested as I've tried and even when they don't have to do much if anything to make it happen they're just not interested.


----------



## hokkers999

Milhouse said:


> I can actually receive a VM digital cable signal in my property - an engineer even left me with a fully functioning cable digi box (it was still Telewest at the time) for a couple of weeks while he sourced a replacement analogue box - and they still won't allow me to sign up.
> 
> So no, I don't think there is a way to get them interested as I've tried and even when they don't have to do much if anything to make it happen they're just not interested.


Had a similar experience for my father in law. The catv access hatch is outside his window, eventually after pestering them got a spotter out who said "it's right outside your window" :-(

Only took 3 weeks.


----------



## steveroe

Can someone explain to me (bearing in mind I know nothing about cable) if they need to put in a second cable to connect to the Tivo if it has it's own "modem" and won't suck bandwidth from your existing line?


----------



## cwaring

scoopuk said:


> Anyone know how can I persuade Virgin to cable my street ?


cablemystreet AT virginmedia.co.uk


----------



## jamiemc01

Speaking for myself, I can't wait !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Its look like a fantastic product.


----------



## deandashl

3 tuner TiVo.

I'm happy for UK. Enjoy the TiVo we should've got.

Premiere XL ---- pointless.


----------



## cwaring

steveroe said:


> Can someone explain to me (bearing in mind I know nothing about cable) if they need to put in a second cable to connect to the Tivo if it has it's own "modem" and won't suck bandwidth from your existing line?


Bascially, no.


----------



## hokkers999

Milhouse said:


> VoD
> HD
> 3D
> Downloadable apps
> BBC iPlayer
> YouTube
> Remote scheduling (yes I know we have TiVo Web)
> Facebook, Twitter etc. for people who like that sort of thing
> iPad access
> 
> Seriously, stop being a mong.


VOD - got already
HD - don't care, unless you sit 5 feet from the telly the eye can't tell anyway
3D - even bigger con
downloadable apps - that the internet isn't it
bbc iplayer - again that's the internet
youtube - same old internet again, plus I can download to my pc or phone
remote scheduling - via Tivo web had that for years
facebook etc - seriously? without a proper qwerty keyboard...
ipad - you're going to spend £500 on a phone to use it as a remote control?


----------



## hokkers999

ColinYounger said:


> We get it - you don't like VM. Stick with your S1 and go back under the bridge.


I've been with VM (NTL) since 2000, just making the point that in 10 years they have hardly made any advances.


----------



## hokkers999

Milhouse said:


> Who knows what they're doing behind the scenes, the fact remains they own the infra and their fibre network can easily support HD streaming. Peering to the internet may or may not be capacity constrained, but that's a whole different ball game - VoD only requires access from a VM TiVo to a VM server over the VM network, piece of p1ss.


Did you go and read the stuff at the link I provided. The problem isn't tier 1 inter connectivity, the UBR's are often massively oversubscribed.


----------



## hokkers999

mikerr said:


> The TiVo has its own unthrottled network interface.
> Traffic management is for your broadband cable modem.
> 
> .


The head end only has a certain amount of bandwidth no matter how you slice and dice it.

The existing infrastructure struggles with the current internet throughput, multiply this by whatever for these new boxes....

...I am expecting my current internet to go down the tubes performance wise when these hit the streets in any sort of quantity.


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> VOD - got already


But not as tightly integrated.


> HD - don't care, unless you sit 5 feet from the telly the eye can't tell anyway


Agreed, but that's not really a USP of the Tivo but more of a general TV thing.



> 3D - even bigger con


As above.



> downloadable apps - that the internet isn't it


Riiiiiiight 



> bbc iplayer - again that's the internet


No. Again, more tightly integrated into the UI to make the use of it more seamless.



> youtube - same old internet again, plus I can download to my pc or phone


Agreed. A bonus but not a main selling-point.



> remote scheduling - via Tivo web had that for years


Yes, but only 'cos you hacked your Tivo. This is built-in from the outset.



> facebook etc - seriously? without a proper qwerty keyboard...


Again, you're not wrong on this point.



> ipad - you're going to spend £500 on a phone to use it as a remote control?


Of course not  but useful if you already have one; or are planning to. And a possible 'port' to the iPhone, maybe? I don't know.

The main USP for Tivo as far as I am concerned are _reliable_ Series Links and Wishlists and a useable search facility. The rest is just a bonus.


----------



## baward

cwaring said:


> cablemystreet AT virginmedia.co.uk


Thanks for that!


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> The main USP for Tivo as far as I am concerned are _reliable_ Series Links and Wishlists and a useable search facility. The rest is just a bonus.


Don't know how to do the layered quoting you did but I would remark

bbc iplayer sits on my pc's desktop, doesn't get more integrated than that.

The series links and the three weeks data are why I still use the old S1 after all these years.

As for the other "internet" stuff you will be able to get on the new box, doing that means that nobody else can actually watch the "telly".


----------



## melmatic

Interview: Virgin Medias Cindy Rose On The Connected-TV Explosion

http://paidcontent.org/article/419-interview-virgin-medias-cindy-rose-on-the-connected-tv-explosion/

We are premium-positioning, Rose says, whilst demoing the box for paidContent:UK at Virgins London HQ. Were initially positioning this as a high-end product as a tier on top of TV XL - £3 more expensive than the standard TV XL subscription. However, we intend to migrate our entire television customer base over to TiVo as our standard product within a matter of years, and not many years. That means, undoubtedly, we will course-correct, refine and review packaging and pricing decisions as we go to make that happen.


----------



## mikerr

_Most_ people don't have their PCs connected up to the big screen TV.

The "internet" features bring that content into your living room *for everyone*

Yes, as always you can hack something together with a PC but that's not a solution for the average household, nor will it be as elegantly integrated all within the same user interface, and useable by the average non-technical user.


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> Don't know how to do the layered quoting you did..


I'm smarter than I look. Which, admittedly, I should hope so 



hokkers999 said:


> bbc iplayer sits on my pc's desktop, doesn't get more integrated than that.





mikerr said:


> _Most_ people don't have their PCs connected up to the big screen TV.





hokkers999 said:


> As for the other "internet" stuff you will be able to get on the new box, doing that means that nobody else can actually watch the "telly".


Then you can still use your PC  It's an either/or not mutually-exclusive.

Also....



mikerr said:


> The "internet" features bring that content into your living room *for everyone*


Plus, as mike also said...


mikerr said:


> Yes, as always you can hack something together with a PC but that's not a solution for the average household, nor will it be as elegantly integrated all within the same user interface, and useable by the average non-technical user.


----------



## hokkers999

mikerr said:


> _Most_ people don't have their PCs connected up to the big screen TV.
> 
> The "internet" features bring that content into your living room *for everyone*
> 
> Yes, as always you can hack something together with a PC but that's not a solution for the average household, nor will it be as elegantly integrated all within the same user interface, and useable by the average non-technical user.


Great, so I can upload and run a copy of Firefox on the new box then?

Compete with ad blocking, cookie blocking, extensions to protect my privacy.

Run a torrent client.

Run a Tor node.

Connect via a vpn so that vm can't sniff my traffic.

Thought not. Makes the internet via the box a bit of a dead duck then, you still can't seriously tell me that you can do all that internet stuff by the remote control? You are kidding right??


----------



## warrenrb

No, Seriously. Stick with your S1. It's fine.


----------



## royfox

warrenrb said:


> No, Seriously. Stick with your S1. It's fine.


LoL.


----------



## Tony Hoyle

scoopuk said:


> Now I may be remembering this incorrectly but I'm sure I paid £400 for my TiVo on that great day all those years ago to my now-closed neighbourhood Dixons store. At the time I banged on about it being the best £400 I'd spent on anything, ever. I still think so.


I regret to this day not getting a Tivo the first tiime I thought of it instead of waiting several months. Best £400 I ever spent (IIRC they started at much more).

This time I'm not waiting...


----------



## hokkers999

warrenrb said:


> No, Seriously. Stick with your S1. It's fine.


My only fear is that when they launch the new box they'll discontinue the epg updates :-(

Of course if they really want people to spread the word and evangelise the new product, they would GIVE one to all the existing S1 owners. They know who they are as they have the customer database from sky.


----------



## hokkers999

warrenrb said:


> No, Seriously. Stick with your S1. It's fine.


If you go to the new sub site in vm for the new box and click on how do i get it, the site presents this

******
This Connection is Untrusted

You have asked Firefox to connect
securely to tivo.virginmedia.com, but we can't confirm that your connection is secure.

Normally, when you try to connect securely,
sites will present trusted identification to prove that you are
going to the right place. However, this site's identity can't be verified.

What Should I Do?

If you usually connect to
this site without problems, this error could mean that someone is
trying to impersonate the site, and you shouldn't continue.

tivo.virginmedia.com uses an invalid security certificate.

The certificate is not trusted because the issuer certificate is unknown.

(Error code: sec_error_unknown_issuer)
*********

dear, dear, dear.

Plus it looks like you have to have xl tv to even get one. that rules out a large portion of their customers.


----------



## hokkers999

warrenrb said:


> No, Seriously. Stick with your S1. It's fine.


Games, it does games!

Great where do I insert my Quake 4 DVD?

Oh hang on, my graphics card cost more than that box does....so you can imagine the sort of crappy flash based "games" you'll get. Fine if your 6 years old I suppose.


----------



## Milhouse

You started your little rant with the following claim:



hokkers999 said:


> I watched the video and sat there thinking "boring" *there is nothing there that my 10 year old S1 can't do*.


(my emphasis) then when given examples of what the VM TiVo can do that your S1 can't you start comparing it to a PC, or saying you don't care about those features, or even claim you have features that your S1 can't possibly provide (VoD? WTF? I guess you're talking about another device and not your S1?)



hokkers999 said:


> VOD - got already
> HD - don't care, unless you sit 5 feet from the telly the eye can't tell anyway
> 3D - even bigger con
> downloadable apps - that the internet isn't it
> bbc iplayer - again that's the internet
> youtube - same old internet again, plus I can download to my pc or phone
> remote scheduling - via Tivo web had that for years
> facebook etc - seriously? without a proper qwerty keyboard...
> ipad - you're going to spend £500 on a phone to use it as a remote control?


Isn't it obvious you're wrong when you claim there is nothing the VM TiVo can do that your S1 can't? Or do you still stand by such a ridiculous claim?

Whether you appreciate the new features of the VM TiVo is utterly irrelevant, it does however provide far more functionality than a TiVo S1, and there's something for everyone (but not you, obviously).


----------



## Milhouse

hokkers999 said:


> Great, so I can upload and run a copy of Firefox on the new box then?
> 
> Compete with ad blocking, cookie blocking, extensions to protect my privacy.
> 
> Run a torrent client.
> 
> Run a Tor node.
> 
> Connect via a vpn so that vm can't sniff my traffic.
> 
> Thought not. Makes the internet via the box a bit of a dead duck then, you still can't seriously tell me that you can do all that internet stuff by the remote control? You are kidding right??





hokkers999 said:


> Games, it does games!
> 
> Great where do I insert my Quake 4 DVD?
> 
> Oh hang on, my graphics card cost more than that box does....so you can imagine the sort of crappy flash based "games" you'll get. Fine if your 6 years old I suppose.


Are you for real? 

I definitely think I was correct with my original character assessment. Your attitude today reminds me of people 10 years ago when discussing a TiVo S1 who would only respond "Why do I need this TiVo when I've got my VCR? I'll stick with my tapes, thanks.".


----------



## cyril

Tony Hoyle said:


> I regret to this day not getting a Tivo the first tiime I thought of it instead of waiting several months. Best £400 I ever spent (IIRC they started at much more).
> 
> This time I'm not waiting...


Was it £399 + £200 for lifetime at launch?

That equates to about £2900 in today's real money i.e. gold!

Despite that it was best £599 I spent at that time too.


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> Of course if they really want people to spread the word and evangelise the new product, they would GIVE one to all the existing S1 owners. They know who they are as they have the customer database from sky.


And you're being totally altruisic with that statement, aren't you? Nothing to do with the fact that you have a S1 at all, right?


----------



## laurence

I'd love a free one, or even a discount, but I'm realistic too!
I don't think virgin will have a problem getting this popular.
I was going to wait a while, but I'm far too excited and just can't wait to get one now. Don't really want a tv package from virgin, but have to have new TiVo. It's a bit like not wanting lung cancer but needing a smoke.
Does anyone know about connectivity? I'm hoping it's got an optical out for audio...


----------



## Milhouse

[email protected] said:


> Does anyone know about connectivity? I'm hoping it's got an optical out for audio...


Yep - SPDIF/Optical plus SCART, HDMI, 2x USB, RJ-45 Ethernet.


----------



## royfox

[email protected] said:


> I'd love a free one, or even a discount, but I'm realistic too!
> I don't think virgin will have a problem getting this popular.
> I was going to wait a while, but I'm far too excited and just can't wait to get one now. Don't really want a tv package from virgin, but have to have new TiVo. It's a bit like not wanting lung cancer but needing a smoke.
> Does anyone know about connectivity? I'm hoping it's got an optical out for audio...


It does have an optical out socket on the rear, so I assume itvall works.


----------



## EdGillett

royfox said:


> I have to say, I think the Virgin video demo / advert is truly excellent. :up::up:
> 
> I love the way it's delivered, bit by bit, asking, "can you handle more".. I love the language used in it.. :up::up:
> 
> Bloody well done Virgin... at last a Tivo advert showing a small bit of this versatile technology..


Looking very promising. And yes, they'll get me paying for more TV just because I can have this as the one box at the centre (don't worry - we go outside too!).

Slick delivery thus far from VM - I'm very hopefuly that they've done the execution of the product right. This could truly be game changing for VM and gives them the ability to really flex their network.

I like to imagine Branson sticking two fingers up to Murdoch and saying "This is what you should have done with it the first time round you muppet".

Well done VM - I await my new peanut with eager anticipation. Just in time to coincide with the lounge being redone with new plasma, projector, surround sound etc. Huzzah!


----------



## baward

hokkers999 said:


> Hmmm, stick with my lifetime sub S1 or get ripped a new one by those con merchants at VM??
> 
> If I'm "renting" the box, as far as an up front £200 goes, well there are two eff's in it.
> 
> Even Sky don't charge for Sky+ features, let alone £26.50 a month.


I wonder if Sky will get beavering away to bring out a VM Tivo-like box, with more features and at a cheaper price?

Its only television.


----------



## AMc

I can completely understand why this is being premium priced at launch. I had an unrelated meeting with a product manager for a major pay TV PVR just before launch. When I asked him about steep the price he said they'd already sold every unit they could import & install before the launch and he could have doubled the price again without affecting penetration at all.
Once the initial hardware shipments were installed and commissioned, the initial bugs in the installation, commissioning and software were sorted out the prices began to fall. I believe you now get that box on a standard install.
Asking early adopters to pay a premium manages demand and covers some of the cost of the roll out process - it makes commercial sense.

Good luck all you lucky Virgin cable people!


----------



## Ovit-UK

AMc said:


> I can completely understand why this is being premium priced at launch. I had an unrelated meeting with a product manager for a major pay TV PVR just before launch. When I asked him about steep the price he said they'd already sold every unit they could import & install before the launch and he could have doubled the price again without affecting penetration at all.
> Once the initial hardware shipments were installed and commissioned, the initial bugs in the installation, commissioning and software were sorted out the prices began to fall. I believe you now get that box on a standard install.
> Asking early adopters to pay a premium manages demand and covers some of the cost of the roll out process - it makes commercial sense.
> 
> Good luck all you lucky Virgin cable people!


Gotta agree with what you've said particularly "manages demand" , it is what its about at roll out stage and there are loads of us that will want it/get it whatever the cost - plus we hype it all ourselves by discussing the prices 

Ovit


----------



## ...coolstream

ozsat said:


> Unless I am misunderstanding you - my TiVo allows me to go back up to 48 hours in the past in the listings.


My mistake. I guess I should have said that I can't use the 'old' info to create a season pass or do anything meaningful with it. I appreciate that this is different to what I said and I apologise for that.


----------



## ...coolstream

[email protected] said:


> I'd love a free one, or even a discount, but I'm realistic too!
> I don't think virgin will have a problem getting this popular.
> I was going to wait a while, but I'm far too excited and just can't wait to get one now. Don't really want a tv package from virgin, but have to have new TiVo. It's a bit like not wanting lung cancer but needing a smoke.
> Does anyone know about connectivity? I'm hoping it's got an optical out for audio...


There's a nice flash demo here 
http://tivo.virginmedia.com/public/how


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> And you're being totally altruisic with that statement, aren't you? Nothing to do with the fact that you have a S1 at all, right?


Yes actually, because at the moment with the features as offered at launch with no active ethernet import/export etc and no way to "hack" it, I would decline the offer.

Reason - I wouldn't be giving the new box a fair crack of the whip. I'd tell people to go out and find an old one.


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> Yes actually, because at the moment with the features as offered at launch....


That would be all the features described on here and not available on the Series 1 despite how you like to make out they are?



> with no active ethernet import/export etc...


That's one S1 hack I never actually used nor saw a need for, to be honest.



> and no way to "hack" it...


Given the feature set it currently has, and the future possibilities with apps, why exactly would there be a need to "hack" it at all?

I can see why the S1 was "hacked"; to have features not available on the original box. But, as I said, there's no need of this with the new VM Tivo.



> Reason - I wouldn't be giving the new box a fair crack of the whip.


You haven't got one and you're _still_ doing that 



> I'd tell people to go out and find an old one.


Then you'd be doing them a dis-service.

There is currently one 'modded' (drive + net card) and a couple of basic un-modded units on ebay. Neither of which can be compare _in any way_ favourably with the new VM Tivo. Tivoland are doing a Grade S1 with a 500GB hard drive and networking for *£300*. You would recommend getting one of those over a new VM Tivo? Seriously?


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring;8260264
"enabling ethernet access"
That's one S1 hack I never actually used nor saw a need for said:


> in any way[/I] favourably with the new VM Tivo.


The ethernet hack is one of the MOST useful things you can do an S1 unit. Download to pc, run through an NLE and burn to a disc. Not useful at all. Especially for stuff that is never released on disc. My wife is a big speedway fan, the only way to get a permanent copy is to go the d/l, edit, burn route.

Even more useful - take stuff from the video camera, edit it then UPLOAD it to the Tivo.

Once you've used it, you'll wonder how you managed without it and if it isn't available on the new unit that one reason alone will stop me from getting one.

I am getting slated on here for talking about a box we haven't seen yet, by the same token your last comment also falls into that category. A modded unit with ethernet card is a very powerful box.

What's even more amazing is that it is 10 year old hardware - amazing foresight from the original Tivo designers. It's only taken the rest of the world 10 years to catch up.


----------



## royfox

some news from the media investors presentation
http://vmhd.blogspot.com/


----------



## royfox

hokkers999 said:


> What's even more amazing is that it is 10 year old hardware - amazing foresight from the original Tivo designers. It's only taken the rest of the world 10 years to catch up.


I sort of agree with this.. in fact the hardware design has stood the test of time but is now showing its age. What the amazing foresight bit is, is the software functionality. You are correct. It's taken 10 years for the rest of the world to catch up and in real terms, they still haven't made it..


----------



## mikerr

I'd disagree that the S1 system being open was "foresight" though,
subsequent models have been more and more locked down.

http://vmhd.blogspot.com/


> Should be able to watch content from different TiVo boxes throughout the home in January.
> Ability to control TiVo and watch home content on mobile devices


That sounds like Tivo Home Media features, which also includes transfer of shows to/from PC
https://www3.tivo.com/store/accessories-software.do


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> I am getting slated on here for talking about a box we haven't seen yet, by the same token your last comment also falls into that category. A modded unit with ethernet card is a very powerful box.


I had an ethernet card. I was referring to the streaming/transfering thing. Sorry for the confusion.



> What's even more amazing is that it is 10 year old hardware - amazing foresight from the original Tivo designers. It's only taken the rest of the world 10 years to catch up.


If you're referring to the EPG/Metadata then completely agree. If you're referring to the rest of it; well those things could not be done on a plain, standard out-of-the-box unit, but something which required some serious modding and therefore cannot be compared to the new VM Tivo units.

BTW, no comment on the rest of my post, most notably the last paragraph?


----------



## hokkers999

royfox said:


> I sort of agree with this.. in fact the hardware design has stood the test of time but is now showing its age. What the amazing foresight bit is, is the software functionality. You are correct. It's taken 10 years for the rest of the world to catch up and in real terms, they still haven't made it..


When you consider that the increase in cpu performance over the last 10 years is what 20-40x more powerful and the 10 year old S1 can

watch a recording
do another one

and STILL put out a full 10 mbits over the network.

The new one will run a flash based gui, how exciting. With all the processing power left over why can't it run a tor node or a torrent client or an openvpn client?

After all everyone on here claims it's all about integrating the internet to the stb right?


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> The new one will run a flash based gui, how exciting. With all the processing power left over why can't it run a tor node or a torrent client or an openvpn client?


Perhaps because that's not what it was designed to do; with it being a _consumer_ unit and not one for nerds. Why are you concerned about your anonymity? What are you doing that you shouldn't be? 



> After all everyone on here claims it's all about integrating the internet to the stb right?


Certain aspects of it, yes.


----------



## hokkers999

mikerr said:


> I'd disagree that the S1 system being open was "foresight" though,
> subsequent models have been more and more locked down.


My statement was correct. The engineers were very far sighted. Of course once the marketing lot and the tv excutives got their mitts on it.....


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> My statement was correct. The engineers were very far sighted. Of course once the marketing lot and the tv excutives got their mitts on it.....


Yes. Hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it  Seriously. Do you _know_ what these engineers were thinking, either before or after "the marketing lot and the tv excutives got their mitts on it"? You can speculate all you want, but I suspect all they were designing was a DVR.


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> I had an ethernet card. I was referring to the streaming/transfering thing. Sorry for the confusion.
> 
> If you're referring to the EPG/Metadata then completely agree. If you're referring to the rest of it; well those things could not be done on a plain, standard out-of-the-box unit, but something which required some serious modding and therefore cannot be compared to the new VM Tivo units.
> 
> BTW, no comment on the rest of my post, most notably the last paragraph?


You edited it after I commented 

Let's see though.

£300 for a modded 500 gig S1 with lifetime so that's your only cost plus you own it and can do what you like it with it, AND it works if you don't have cable.

The new one - £200 up front PLUS £26.50 a month thereafter. None of this crap about it's only £3 more than XL. That 's just a way of trying to disguise the true cost, it also presumes you have it we don't.

Why not? We get the basic telly package FREE with the phone & internet, so I'd be forced to pay for 120 channels I don't want - a large portion of which are the +1 channels anyway - and shell out nearly 3 times the cost of an old S1 monthly sub???

So let's say it takes them 12 months to work out the bugs and get a fully serviceable fully working unit, what would you have spent?

S1 - £300

New one - £200 + 12x£26.50 = £518

So yes, getting an old unit definitely makes sense....


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> Perhaps because that's not what it was designed to do; with it being a _consumer_ unit and not one for nerds.


What a missed opportunity though?


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> You edited it after I commented


Sorry. That happens sometimes 



hokkers999 said:


> What a missed opportunity though?


Not really as they're things you don't need on a box like this.



hokkers999 said:


> £300 for a modded 500 gig S1 with lifetime so that's your only cost plus you own it and can do what you like it with it, AND it works if you don't have cable.


Not a bad price. But doesn't compare to the new version.



> The new one - £200 up front PLUS £26.50 a month thereafter.


Well yeah, but that price includes the full XL Pack. It's only £3 per month really as you (currently at least) need to be on the XL pack to get the unit anyway,



> None of this crap about it's only £3 more than XL.


Sorry, but it is only that. I'm *already on* the XL pack so, to me, it's only £3 per month more.



> That 's just a way of trying to disguise the true cost, it also presumes you have it we don't.


No. If they were presuming you had it already, they would just have mentioned the £3 



> Why not? We get the basic telly package FREE with the phone & internet, so I'd be forced to pay for 120 channels I don't want - a large portion of which are the +1 channels anyway - and shell out nearly 3 times the cost of an old S1 monthly sub???


I actually agree, but that's the only pricing they've released for the moment. We'll see what happens with the lesser packages in time.



> So let's say it takes them 12 months to work out the bugs and get a fully serviceable fully working unit, what would you have spent?


What bugs? Are there any? How do you know? I didn't find many at all in my S1 Tivo so why should there be any in this one. You're just making another assumption to try and back-up your case.

"what would you have spent?" Well, by the time I sold it I'd spent £200 + (£10x12x8) on my own S1 so this one will be costing me a lot less 

S1 - £300
New one - £200 + £40 (install) 12x£3.00 = £36

Corrected your maths for you 



> So yes, getting an old unit definitely makes sense....


Unless you want all the newer features, yes.


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> What bugs? Are there any? How do you know? I didn't find many at all in my S1 Tivo so why should there be any in this one.


Well the V+ box still isn't right yet according to all the people reporting problems on here

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/104/


----------



## cwaring

Yes. We're taking about the Tivo though. Were there that many bugs in the early (v1.5.2?) Tivo system? I know I never came across any serious ones with v2.5.5.


----------



## Tony Hoyle

The first Tivo software would reset constantly - I remember getting pretty annoyed with it at the time as it was basically unusable until 2.5.5 got onto the box & fixed it. 2.5.5 was pretty much bug free.

IIRC it was something to do with it not linking certain video sources or something.


----------



## cwaring

Fine, but I think they might just be quite good at it having had ten year's practise


----------



## Tony Hoyle

Only thing I'm worried about is VM getting too involved and ruining it, but it sounds like the VM Tivo is basically the same as the US with a red theme (first hack goal.. get the blue theme back!).


----------



## laurence

Milhouse said:


> Yep - SPDIF/Optical plus SCART, HDMI, 2x USB, RJ-45 Ethernet.


That's it, I now have no excuses 
Time to tell the wife!
Thanks for all the replies.


----------



## EdGillett

That 10 year old Tivo remains far and away the most exciting testament to usable technology I've ever had the privilege to use. Can't think of any other software 10 years old that still holds up so well.

For those curious as to what the designers were thinking, there's a chapter in a book called "Founders of Work" published by Apress which features an interview with Mike Ramsay, Co-Founder of Tivo - it's an excellent quick read for Tivo fans (excellent book all round actually).

They truly were ahead of their time and deserve to be rolling in cash if you ask me  I'm still Murdoch pooched it in the UK first time around. Sky Minus. Pah.

I think focussing on the software will get them far.

Wife a happy bunny knowing that Tivo is coming back into the house


----------



## EdGillett

Tony Hoyle said:


> Only thing I'm worried about is VM getting too involved and ruining it, but it sounds like the VM Tivo is basically the same as the US with a red theme (first hack goal.. get the blue theme back!).


That flash-ad reminiscent of Starship Troopers ("would you like to know more?") actually made me realise that VM "get" Tivo - I too was worried about them going overboard and screwing it up by adding a VM layer too far to what makes it Tivo.

Instead, it looks like they're seriously leveraging their network capacity and surfacing all the VOD content in a really easily discoverable and consumable fashion.

I have faith that VM are going to get this right.

Sounds like VM are heavily committed and shaping their future interface squarely on Tivo reading the investors report - this box is just the start.

So gotta have something to moan about - Cisco - why did you make the front of this thing so damn ugly. Square buttons? Rectangular lights? I know the grilles around it all will undoubtedly help with heat dissipation and aid reliability - I'm down with that.

But would it really have hurt you to take a design cue from the US Tivo box with the circular lights? I know that's taking us dangerously close to a Sky+ circle, but still.

And I know it's a Tivo, but where is our beloved Tivo dude? He seems to be sadly missing ...


----------



## cyril

hokkers999 said:


> You edited it after I commented
> 
> S1 - £300
> 
> New one - £200 + 12x£26.50 = £518
> 
> So yes, getting an old unit definitely makes sense....


Most pay monthly services end up costing you more in the long run.
Sadly I like my HD content and for me this is best served by the new TiVo.

Whether 26.50 per month is worth it is up to each individual.

I didn't use paytv services for 5 years as I had 5 life timed s1 TiVos and a few unsubbed spares.

Then HD arrived and poor TiVo has been put in backup mode until now


----------



## mikerr

EdGillett said:


> but where is our beloved Tivo dude? He seems to be sadly missing ...


good point - he's still there but quite small:


----------



## cwaring

I wonder if there'll be a start-up animation. We can but hope


----------



## mikerr

That's Tivo HD startup, this is TiVo premiere startup

(VM TiVo is based on Premiere...)


----------



## qwiki

I wonder if I can get the Tivo man sticker off my S1 ready to put on the VM box?


----------



## Milhouse

I wonder if Advanced Wishlists are supported by the VM TiVo box?

Do they still work in US S4 TiVo boxes?

http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=342736&seqNum=4


----------



## cwaring

mikerr said:


> That's Tivo HD startup, this is TiVo premiere startup
> 
> (VM TiVo is based on Premiere...)


I know that. Why couldn't I find that video?


----------



## royfox

to follow in the recent "i wonder" questions.

I wonder if Batman and Robin really were just good friends? 

Sorry I couldn't resist..


----------



## warrenrb

Well, having just discovered three of my recordings last night were of the Virgin Media EPG, I'm very much looking forward to an integrated tuner(s) TiVo where I don't have to rely upon the rather lo-fi IR wands of our S1's!

BTW, What do we know about 'soft-padding' on the Premiere? Is it in the box by default? That's something I'd miss, for sure. Or is it just the case with multi-tuners that you can put padding on everything, in the knowledge that if something starts right after the current recording, the second tuner will pick it up?


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> "what would you have spent?" Well, by the time I sold it I'd spent £200 + (£10x12x8) on my own S1 so this one will be costing me a lot less
> 
> S1 - £300
> New one - £200 + £40 (install) 12x£3.00 = £36
> 
> Corrected your maths for you
> 
> Unless you want all the newer features, yes.


As you have pointed out you are REQUIRED to subscribe to xl @ £26.50 to get one, therefore my maths is correct. In fact it is £40 more

£200 + £40 + 318 = £558 for one year


----------



## cwaring

True, but as I have _also_ pointed out, the only customers who can currently even _hope_ of getting one have to be _already on_ the XP pack. So it _really is_ only £3 per month extra.

VM will, I'm sure, be releasing pricing for other tiers, new customers, etc. at some point


----------



## royfox

I've just noticed from my bill that we are only on the L tv package 

Do we need to upgrade to XL to stand a chance of getting the new tivo or is it too late and we may as well stay where we are????


----------



## Milhouse

cwaring said:


> True, but as I have _also_ pointed out, the only customers who can currently even _hope_ of getting one have to be _already on_ the XP pack. So it _really is_ only £3 per month extra.
> 
> VM will, I'm sure, be releasing pricing for other tiers, new customers, etc. at some point


I thought the price announced so far is only for new customers... at least that's what Media Boy is saying he's been told by his "Virgin insider", and that pricing for existing customers is yet to be revealed (possibly with discounts, deals etc.).


----------



## hokkers999

royfox said:


> I've just noticed from my bill that we are only on the L tv package
> 
> Do we need to upgrade to XL to stand a chance of getting the new tivo or is it too late and we may as well stay where we are????


No XL == NO TIVO

who knows in the future?


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> True, but as I have _also_ pointed out, the only customers who can currently even _hope_ of getting one have to be _already on_ the XP pack. So it _really is_ only £3 per month extra.
> 
> VM will, I'm sure, be releasing pricing for other tiers, new customers, etc. at some point


and for new people it is £26.50 a month, stop trying to dance around it.

The new tivo box costs £26.50 a month, it so happens you are already paying £23.50 of it, but it does cost £26.50 a month. So happens they chuck in 120 odd useless tv channels as well - I know, that's subjective - but this is my post and my opinion 

In a couple of years when they are giving them away free with cornflake boxes my good old S1 will still be going strong (hopefully  ) and you'll have spent £636 in monthly subs.


----------



## browellm

hokkers999 said:


> and for new people it is £26.50 a month, stop trying to dance around it.
> 
> The new tivo box costs £26.50 a month, it so happens you are already paying £23.50 of it, but it does cost £26.50 a month. So happens they chuck in 120 odd useless tv channels as well - I know, that's subjective - but this is my post and my opinion
> 
> In a couple of years when they are giving them away free with cornflake boxes my good old S1 will still be going strong (hopefully  ) and you'll have spent £636 in monthly subs.


What do you want, applause?


----------



## hokkers999

mikerr said:


> _Most_ people don't have their PCs connected up to the big screen TV.
> 
> The "internet" features bring that content into your living room *for everyone*
> 
> Yes, as always you can hack something together with a PC but that's not a solution for the average household, nor will it be as elegantly integrated all within the same user interface, and useable by the average non-technical user.


Sorry missed this first time around, watching a blocky 640 x 480 youtube video on a 50" telly is going to be fantastic viewing experience isn't it?

How long is it going to take you to search the internet using only the remote control as an input device??


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> And you're being totally altruisic with that statement, aren't you? Nothing to do with the fact that you have a S1 at all, right?


Thought about this a bit more. There can't be many S1 users left - few thousand, few hundred? - compared to the cost of a single tv advert giving every existing S1 owner a new box would/could be very cost effective advertising.


----------



## hokkers999

mikerr said:


> I'd disagree that the S1 system being open was "foresight" though,
> subsequent models have been more and more locked down.
> 
> http://vmhd.blogspot.com/
> 
> That sounds like Tivo Home Media features, which also includes transfer of shows to/from PC
> https://www3.tivo.com/store/accessories-software.do


That'll be another £149 "activaion fee" and of course a £40 installation fee


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> I had an ethernet card. I was referring to the streaming/transfering thing. Sorry for the confusion.


No quote on my d/l - edit - burn comment? Which for a lot of stuff is the only way to get a long term copy...

...or the edit - u/l?

All of our holiday/birthday/etc footage is now on the Tivo to watch whenever we want.


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> and for new people it is £26.50 a month, stop trying to dance around it.


Except that, at the moment "new people" - ie new customers - can't get it!!

Yes, you could upgrade to XL right now _just_ to get a Tivo; but you could always wait a while and see what other prices they announce.


----------



## hokkers999

browellm said:


> What do you want, applause?


Oh, ok then 

Just people to realise what the TRUE cost of this new box is.

Added: looking through the cableforum posts about "coming soon" apparently a senior vm exec said the boxes cost considerably less than £199. ~More gouging?


----------



## RichardJH

cwaring said:


> True, but as I have _also_ pointed out, the only customers who can currently even _hope_ of getting one have to be _already on_ the XP pack. So it _really is_ only £3 per month extra.
> 
> VM will, I'm sure, be releasing pricing for other tiers, new customers, etc. at some point


What about us poor souls that have Windows 7


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> No quote on my d/l - edit - burn comment? Which for a lot of stuff is the only way to get a long term copy...
> 
> ...or the edit - u/l?


Not really as it's not something I have ever done as I don't believe in breaching copyright.



> All of our holiday/birthday/etc footage is now on the Tivo to watch whenever we want.


Which was never intended to be one of the features of the unit.



RichardJH said:


> What about us poor souls that have Windows 7


D'oh  I mean XL of course 



hokkers999 said:


> JJust people to realise what the TRUE cost of this new box is.


Which, to me (and anyone else on the XL pack, who are the only people who can get a Tivo at the moment), is *£3 per month*.


----------



## Milhouse

Jesus, never thought I'd hear myself say this but I actually miss Pete...


----------



## mikerr

hokkers999 said:


> Sorry missed this first time around, watching a blocky 640 x 480 youtube video on a 50" telly is going to be fantastic viewing experience isn't it?


LOL - 640x480 is higher than many TiVo resolutions 

352 x 576	Basic/Medium
480 x 576	High
544 x 576	Best

Ironic given your views on HD:


hokkers999 said:


> HD - don't care, unless you sit 5 feet from the telly the eye can't tell anyway





hokkers999 said:


> How long is it going to take you to search the internet using only the remote control as an input device??


It's about convenience.

If I'm setting up a wishlist for "Martin Freeman", the new TiVo would offer to show me youtube clips with Martin Freeman in, right there on the TV.

For me that's a great feature - no doubt you'll come back with I can use youtube on my laptop" - but that is less _convenient_.



Milhouse said:


> never thought I'd hear myself say this but I actually miss Pete..


Never seen them in the same room , have you ?


----------



## cwaring

LOL! I'd forgotten all about Pete.


----------



## cyril

hokkers999 said:


> Games, it does games!
> 
> Great where do I insert my Quake 4 DVD?
> 
> Oh hang on, my graphics card cost more than that box does....so you can imagine the sort of crappy flash based "games" you'll get. Fine if your 6 years old I suppose.


It is possible that stbs like TiVo will replace the modern games consoles in one or two generations time. I predict the PS5 and xbox1000 will be using streaming technology from a server farm instead of a local gpu. You no longer upgrade the client console, you just add more processing power to the servers.

The new TiVo and modern HD stbs are more than capable of playing games far more complex than Quake4 with the just released new HD streaming gaming technology. I think a server does most of the game processing and the HD video is streamed in realtime. The servers graphics processors will probably cost many times your one, but are cost effective as they are farmed out and serve multiple clients. Maybe in 20 years time no-one will buy games on DVDs and everything will be streamed or downloaded.

In addition HD quality YouTube,iplayer and other high quality Internet TV feeds are increasing in quantity every day. Particulary good for concerts and music videos.


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> Games, it does games!
> 
> Great where do I insert my Quake 4 DVD?
> 
> Oh hang on, my graphics card cost more than that box does....so you can imagine the sort of crappy flash based "games" you'll get. Fine if your 6 years old I suppose.


Did you post this same rubbish about the iPhone/iPad/DS/DSLite/DSi, etc?

"It can be used to play games" does not automatically mean it has a DVD drive; and _of course_ some _dedicated_ GFX cards cost a lot of money. This one costs more than a decent PC. So what?


----------



## VirginMediaPhil

Interesting post by Lord Sugar on Facebook:

"As Virgin launches Tivo this week, this extract from Lord Sugar's book shows he was at forefront of last TV breakthrough, Sky+"

http://www.facebook.com/notes/lord-...-lord-sugars-book-shows-he-wa/171044736249364


----------



## Milhouse

VirginMediaPhil said:


> Interesting post by Lord Sugar on Facebook:
> 
> "As Virgin launches Tivo this week, this extract from Lord Sugar's book shows he was at forefront of last TV breakthrough, Sky+"
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/notes/lord-...-lord-sugars-book-shows-he-wa/171044736249364


What strikes me about that piece is how he bangs on about the "professionalism" of various organisations and their management yet he proceeds to call people "d1ckheads" and generally slag everyone off and relate stories of how he has rubbed people up the wrong way etc. He really is a total chancer who got lucky.

As for his foresight, where was it when TiVo were first on the scene, presumably TiVo sounded out Amstrad as a possible supplier (who may have been conflicted by their obviously one-sided relationship with Sky, who knows)... Seems to me he only saw the obvious when it was put in front of him and there was profit attached - any idiot could tell what PVRs were going to do to the VCR market (and the effect they would have on advertising).

Yet he completely missed out on the best PVR platform at the time, TiVo.


----------



## mikerr

Another view is that amstrad became too reliant on stb sales (it was 75&#37; of their business) and it was that which led to amstrad being bought by sky in 2007


----------



## Milhouse

mikerr said:


> Another view is that amstrad became too reliant on stb sales (it was 75% of their business) and it was that which led to amstrad being bought by sky in 2007


You can see how desperate Sugar was to remain relevant to Sky in that single extract alone - for such an apparently savvy businessman it comes as a surprise that he allowed his business to become so dependent on a single buyer, presumably he must have thought his cosy relationship with Murdoch would ensure the business kept rolling in.

Unfortunately for Sugar he seems to have upset most people at Sky who obviously didn't want to have to deal with him or his company, and Murdoch clearly had no interest in bailing him out. Friends they may be, but Sky is a business...


----------



## cwaring

Not as flashy as anything VM might do, and no pretty girl in sight, but it took me a while and think it's not too bad, so the least I can do is let someone see it 





(Can't seem to get the hang of embedding the things into this forum )


----------



## OzSat




----------



## Milhouse

cwaring said:


> Not as flashy as anything VM might do, and no pretty girl in sight, but it took me a while and think it's not too bad, so the least I can do is let someone see it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Can't seem to get the hang of embedding the things into this forum )


I don't think embedding is supported, it usually needs a vBulletin hack/modification to be added by the admin. Would be nice if images could be embedded as well. It's as if this forum has been updated in the last 5 years... and looking at the version number I'm probably not that far off (I dread to think what security holes haven't been plugged).


----------



## Milhouse

ozsat said:


>


Aha... most vBulletin forums I've used will allow you to paste in the YouTube (or other video) URL and automatically detect it, no special tags required.


----------



## cwaring

ozsat said:


> Like this Carl


Yep. Thought that was it but didn't seem to work right. Oh well. Next time


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> Not really as it's not something I have ever done as I don't believe in breaching copyright.


Who said anything about that? Anything burnt to dvd is for our personal in home use only. No real difference between a copy on dvd and a copy "stored" on the tivo is there really?


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> Did you post this same rubbish about the iPhone/iPad/DS/DSLite/DSi, etc?
> 
> "It can be used to play games" does not automatically mean it has a DVD drive; and _of course_ some _dedicated_ GFX cards cost a lot of money. This one costs more than a decent PC. So what?


Apart from crappy kiddies flash based games, where do you connect up the mouse/joystick/keyboard then to play serious games?


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> Who said anything about that? Anything burnt to dvd is for our personal in home use only. No real difference between a copy on dvd and a copy "stored" on the tivo is there really?


Actually yes. You're not supposed to keep anything you "timeshift" for more than a 'reasonable' amount of time. I know everyone breaks it but I believe that that's the law.



hokkers999 said:


> Apart from crappy kiddies flash based games, where do you connect up the mouse/joystick/keyboard then to play serious games?


You can't. Just like you can't on a iPhone/iPad/DS/DSLite/DSi, etc. but it doesn't stop them from being used for games. A game is a game; however it's played. You don't need to have a super-duper PC (or any other tech. for that matter) to play a game


----------



## cyril

hokkers999 said:


> Apart from crappy kiddies flash based games, where do you connect up the mouse/joystick/keyboard then to play serious games?


Modern stbs have USB. You then plug a USB wireless dongle to connect your mice / keyboard/ joystick/ controller/steering wheel or camera-system like Move or Kinect.

Expect to see this quite a bit starting from 2011 and being common by 2020 by which time Bluetooth, zigbee or whatever wireless protocol will be built-in to everything. I expect serious heavy duty gaming to come to TV stbs in one or 2 years time as the infrastructure, hardware and software now exists.


----------



## cyril

Milhouse said:


> Yet he completely missed out on the best PVR platform at the time, TiVo.


Sadly just because you have the best technology it isn't necessarily chosen by a business. Politics and how much TiVo would charge Sugar were probably more important. As rubbish as sky+ is compared to TiVo, the general British public don't know and haven't known what they are missing for the last ten years, and Sugar has made millions despite choosing the much worse technology!


----------



## baward

cyril said:


> As rubbish as sky+ is compared to TiVo, the general British public don't know and haven't known what they are missing for the last ten years


I keep thinking of all those lucky b*ggers whose lives currently _don't _include Tivo, who are going to find out what they've been missing all these years!


----------



## royfox

Well i thought I'd try to get us a deal ladies and gentlemen, so sent a mail to Cindy rose the Executive Director of Digital Entertainment for Virgin Media..

Email sent: Dear Cindy Rose

Firstly, Apologies for this direct route of communication.

I have been a XL triple package VM customer for the last 7 years and a TIVO series 1 owner and monthly subscription payer for the last 10 years.
I for one, know the full potential of the TIVO software..

I along with many other UK series 1 owners were gutted when TIVO pulled away from the UK due to slowing sales. It was widely known throughout the current S1 owners that the Tivo software was in fact the very best and incidentally, still is the very best PVR software a consumer can own. The failing of Tivo in the UK all those years ago was due to very poor advertisement and in my opinion, customer awareness.
Having just read and watched your launch material, I would just like to congratulate you and your team for a very professionally constructed and extremely well executed demo / advertisement video. The language and method of delivery; leading the customer onto new features, was indeed, first class.

There is a section of long standing series 1 Tivo owners in the UK that have been watching the VM/Tivo partnership develop over the last year or so. Most of these users are already VM customers. This core of loyal Tivo & VM owners, of which Im one, are extremely keen to be amongst the first in the UK to own your new PVR. How feasible would it be for VM to give an option to advance purchase the new VM/Tivo (or as I have named it, the Vivo) unit ahead of its official launch? Or at least, allow these Series 1 users to contact VM with a view to registering their details / series 1 serial numbers so that when launched, they will be ahead of the queue? I believe this gesture would make a fantastic PR opportunity for your business and one that the current VM/Tivo S1 owners would be screaming about all over the official UK Tivo forum.. (see here for details http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8258511&posted=1#post8258511 )

As you can probably tell.. lots of people are VERY excited about this launch and I personally feel VM have stole a massive market advantage over Sky with the inclusion of Tivo functionality into an already fantastic quality of service. Well done.

Best Regards

Roy Fox

================

And I got an answer, which to me, shows they are listening.

Hi Roy, thanks so much for reaching out and for the positive feedback, much appreciated! We are very aware of the S1 community and we track the chatter closely! We are indeed working on a special offer to tempt this group over the Virgin Media (at least those who are lucky enough to be on cable). In the meantime, I would encourage you all to visit our website and register for Tivo early www.virginmedia.com/tivo

Many thanks and best regards,
Cindy


----------



## warrenrb

Wow Roy that's fantastic! Well done - I would never have considered such a move...

It would certainly make sense from their point of view - you couldn't get a more enthusiastic and knowledgeable group of unpaid evangelists and demo-ers/trainers out in the field than us lot! :-D


----------



## EdGillett

Nicely done Roy


----------



## frobozz

The closer it gets, the harder the wait. Well done Roy.


----------



## Ovit-UK

Thats a great post Roy well done and hopefully we'll get to hear something soon 

Oh and *Cindy* if your people are watching, have signed up to www.virginmedia.com/tivo (when the webpage was put up) and excitedly awaiting an email.  

Ovit


----------



## EdGillett

Yes indeed, the walls have ears chaps.

Actually that was a shocking assumption - how many female board members to do we have on here? 

And whilst we're at it ... more news: http://virgintivo.blogspot.com/

Who is behind this blog? One of us surely?


----------



## teresatt

I'm a female board member. I had TiVo from almost as soon as it came out and had it fed by my Telewest Digital Cable box. I adored my TiVo, upgraded the hard drive a couple of times and used a serial connection to my laptop to tweak it. I missed it terribly when I gave it up to move onto SkyHD purely for the HD content. After just over a year with Sky the SkyHD box started dying so I came back to Virgin as they had started having HD channels. Now I'm really excited that TiVo is coming back. I'll have to get my TiVo cuddly toy out. I got that when I took part in beta testing of the TiVo software upgrade.


----------



## VirginMediaPhil

EdGillett said:


> Yes indeed, the walls have ears chaps.
> 
> Actually that was a shocking assumption - how many female board members to do we have on here?
> 
> And whilst we're at it ... more news: http://virgintivo.blogspot.com/
> 
> Who is behind this blog? One of us surely?


No, someone at Cable Forum.


----------



## ColinYounger

teresatt said:


> I'll have to get my TiVo cuddly toy out.


I've got a plushie!


----------



## ColinYounger

Ooops. That's a bit bigger than I expected.


----------



## cagray

Has anyone received anything about timescales after registering - its looking a bit tight for Christmas.

Colin


----------



## Tony Hoyle

AFAIK it's only VM employees before christmas.

I'd expect we'll get more info though - would like confirmed pricing and ideally the ability to preorder.


----------



## The Wishlist

EdGillett said:


> Yes indeed, the walls have ears chaps.
> 
> Actually that was a shocking assumption - how many female board members to do we have on here?
> 
> And whilst we're at it ... more news: http://virgintivo.blogspot.com/
> 
> Who is behind this blog? One of us surely?





VirginMediaPhil said:


> No, someone at Cable Forum.


As in.......me! , just another VM customer waiting to get TiVO installed.

Glad to be here, folks. Can't wait to see the back of my SA/TV Drive box :up:


----------



## jodie98deg

cagray said:


> Has anyone received anything about timescales after registering - its looking a bit tight for Christmas.
> 
> Colin


When I called CS this evening they said early 2011. I thought it was cutting it a bit fine for December


----------



## The Wishlist

I'd be gobsmacked to get a Tivo before Xmas. Oh well, we've waited this long for a decent looking and fast user interface on Virgin, a few more weeks won't hurt........much.


----------



## Ovit-UK

The Wishlist said:


> As in.......me! , just another VM customer waiting to get TiVO installed.
> 
> Glad to be here, folks. Can't wait to see the back of my SA/TV Drive box :up:


Welcome to TiVo Nirvana Mr Wishlist. 



teresatt said:


> Now I'm really excited that TiVo is coming back. I'll have to get my TiVo cuddly toy out. I got that when I took part in beta testing of the TiVo software upgrade.





ColinYounger said:


> I've got a plushie! That's a bit bigger than I expected.


Which one of ya wants to sell 

Ovit

P.S. Sorry for the tasteless missquote Colin but your posts had me in giggles. Lol


----------



## ad_jack

WOW! WOW! WOW! WOW! 

haven't really followed this much. knew it was coming but due to being over 200 miles away from a cabled area i didn't really want to hear about it.

for about a year due to flatmates unwilling to have TiVo controlling the sky+ box, i would have settled for a TiVo/Freeview combo in my bedroom if i was also able to receive freeview but alas my old S1 has been in storage since the switchover  
i have mainly been streaming and downloading. It is very nice to see it is finally making a comeback (for real!)
i would like to see it advertised more as TiVo though to be honest not just virgin media.

also any sign of it being available to customers outside of cabled areas? i remember hearing rumours that virgin were 'working' on a way to bring the new TiVo to non-cable areas, with IPTV being the main theory of this coming into existence.

as sad as this sounds i'm wanting to move to cardiff anyway in the next 6 months, as soon as i am there and pending availability i will most certainly be getting myself one and am bloody excited about it!

finally people will understand me when i say how much better it is ever though everybody that has come to know and love my TiVo does think this, but still feel it is outdated purely because its 10 years and tbh quite clunky these days compared to sky HD. i always used to rant about the 'mystical' US TiVo HD usually with the phrase 'If TiVo kept going from it's release date imagine what it would be like today!!'.............imagine no more!!

i am truly delighted, excited and extremely jealous!
all you cable area people are bas**rds! 
none the less enjoy and revel in your bas**rd-ness


----------



## hokkers999

The Wishlist said:


> As in.......me! , just another VM customer waiting to get TiVO installed.
> 
> Glad to be here, folks. Can't wait to see the back of my SA/TV Drive box :up:


Interesting quote you have up there

*******
(The) dedicated internal modem capable of delivering HD video and other online services will grace the box without impacting a customer's regular broadband connection.

Virgin didn't say as much, but sources who are familiar with the project say the operator will allocate spectrum for those set-tops across its existing Docsis 3.0 architecture, which today is being used to offer best-effort 50Mbit/s and 100Mbit/s downstream cable modem service tiers. On top of that, it's believed that Virgin will also apply (Quality of Service) to video that's delivered to those boxes over a dedicated IP data path, creating an expressway of sorts for broadband-delivered video.
******

So Tivo video gets priority traffic managed. Given that the head end has a *finite amount* of bandwidth....when these things start to roll out in my area in any quantity, as I feared, my internet goes down the toilet.

Thanks guys.


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> So Tivo video gets priority traffic managed. Given that the head end has a *finite amount* of bandwidth....when these things start to roll out in my area in any quantity, as I feared, my internet goes down the toilet.


Once again you seem to be jumping the gun with assumptions and thoughts that either make wild assumptions or are simply complete and utter rubbish.

Which bit of "*dedicated* broadband connection" did you not understand? You might also want to get a clue about how Cable systems work as well.

I'm sure The Wishlist will be able to tell you better than me, but to save him time, here's a link he posted on the DS Forums recently when someone else made the same error as you.

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=199738&site=lr_cable


> The set-top's internal modem "will provide dedicated connectivity for video and TiVo-based apps, but *won't be a regular broadband connection per se*," a Virgin Media spokesman tells Light Reading Cable via email. However, that dedicated pipe* won't interfere with a customer's regular broadband connection*, he adds.


(My bold for emphasis)

Please do stop with the FUD. Or I suppose you could continue and just have everyone keep correcting you. If you want to look like an idiot then we can't stop you


----------



## steveroe

I don't think I ever got an answer to this: How does having a "dedicated modem" help if it doesn't have a separate dedicated cable connection. Doesn't this traffic also go down your existing cable that feeds your existing Virgin router? And doesn't all this traffic go to the same green cabinets on the streets and into the same IP network?


----------



## warrenrb

steveroe said:


> I don't think I ever got an answer to this: How does having a "dedicated modem" help if it doesn't have a separate dedicated cable connection. Doesn't this traffic also go down your existing cable that feeds your existing Virgin router? And doesn't all this traffic go to the same green cabinets on the streets and into the same IP network?


The way I see it, if Virgin are going to be able to give us 100Mb connections in the near future, then say you are on a 20Mb Broadband connection, all they have to do is increase your capacity to 30Mb and that's the TiVo taken care of. If you are on 50Mb BB, then your overall usage is 60Mb, and so on.

In other words, your 'pipe' can more than handle the extra 10Mb. Does that make sense?

I read yesterday that BT are trialling 1Gb fibre-optic connections - clearly our cable has plenty of room for expansion - the existing cable isn't the issue.


----------



## royfox

Hi All.
Sorry for the delay in coming back, but I've been away for a couple of days.. 

Just some update for you.

I have been asked to represent the S1 community by VM. I asked if Cindy could allocate a member of her team to keep me updated on the special offer for S1 customers and they agreed that they would channel information to me to release to our S1 community. 

I hope no one minds this, I thought it would make good sense from both our side and theirs to have a reliable, direct source of information and hopefully work closely with my now appointed, dedicated internal contact from the launch team. My contact is fully aware of us S1 owners and she is aware that a special deal will be made available for us.. but.. we have to be patient whilst they work through the array of options.

It's clear from the conversations I've had with my contact that they will be in touch with us in late January. 

ps.. Just so you are aware, there is nothing in this for me, no freebies etc.... I'm just quite happy to be able to open up a communication channel and then pay over my money to take on a new Tivo along with the VM service.


----------



## cwaring

steveroe said:


> I don't think I ever got an answer to this: How does having a "dedicated modem" help if it doesn't have a separate dedicated cable connection.


The point is that, as I read it, it does.


----------



## browellm

That iPad app looks superb.


----------



## steveroe

cwaring said:


> The point is that, as I read it, it does.


So they will come and physically install a second cable into your house?


----------



## warrenrb

Good work Roy. I'm really pleasantly surprised that they are bothering to talk to us at all. Great bit of customer relations from VM.

So - having signed up on the website for more info/early access, I'm guessing that on the unlikely chance they come through to me before late Jan with a chance to get one of these babies, I should SOMEHOW resist and wait for our 'special deal'?

Blimey, that's gonna be tough.


----------



## Milhouse

royfox - for those of us who can't get VM cable (for one reason or another), are you able to determine from your VM source if the S1 TiVos will continue to be supported alongside the VM TiVo? It would be a disaster (not to mention ironic) if the S1 TiVos were to lose EPG support because TiVo had now returned to the UK...


----------



## warrenrb

steveroe said:


> So they will come and physically install a second cable into your house?


Steve, the point I was making in my last post was there is plenty of bandwidth in your existing cable - there would be no need to install a second cable.

I think the second modem in your TiVo is the only way they can control how much bandwidth is dedicated to each device.

Think about it - all internet traffic is 'mixed' down single cables beyond the green boxes. It'll be the hardware at either end that controls how much bandwidth each device gets. That's why they don't need to replace your cable or modem when you go from 10Mb -> 20Mb -> 50Mb Broadband.

As I said, the physical cable isn't the issue.


----------



## mikerr

steveroe said:


> I don't think I ever got an answer to this: How does having a "dedicated modem" help if it doesn't have a separate dedicated cable connection.


Unlike ADSL, Cable can have several different services over one coax cable.

The single coax cable into the house serves any number of STBs and modems.

When you have mutliple STBs or multiple modems in a household, they just tee-off the coax anywhere on its route. The VM Tivo does this internally, but its no different.


----------



## hokkers999

warrenrb said:


> The way I see it, if Virgin are going to be able to give us 100Mb connections in the near future, then say you are on a 20Mb Broadband connection, all they have to do is increase your capacity to 30Mb and that's the TiVo taken care of. If you are on 50Mb BB, then your overall usage is 60Mb, and so on.
> 
> In other words, your 'pipe' can more than handle the extra 10Mb. Does that make sense?
> 
> I read yesterday that BT are trialling 1Gb fibre-optic connections - clearly our cable has plenty of room for expansion - the existing cable isn't the issue.


Correct it isn't.

IT IS THE HEAD END EQUIPMENT.

Did I shout that loud enough for everyone?

Do you "get it" now?

If the head end has total throughput capacity of say 500 megabits/second, it doesn't matter how you slice and dice it, THAT'S ALL IT CAN MANAGE.

Why do you think there is traffic management in the first place, not too difficult is it??


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> Which bit of "*dedicated* broadband connection" did you not understand? You might also want to get a clue about how Cable systems work as well.
> 
> Please do stop with the FUD. Or I suppose you could continue and just have everyone keep correcting you. If you want to look like an idiot then we can't stop you


See my last post, the capacity constraint is at the head end. Let me give you a simple comparison.

I have gigabit ethernet in my home office, the pinch point is the modem - 20megabits.

VM network - cables have in practice (as far as we are concerned anyway) "infinite" bandwidth. The pinch point is the head end.

Me thinks you need to go and take networking 101.


----------



## browellm

hokkers999 said:


> Correct it isn't.
> 
> IT IS THE HEAD END EQUIPMENT.
> 
> Did I shout that loud enough for everyone?
> 
> Do you "get it" now?
> 
> If the head end has total throughput capacity of say 500 megabits/second, it doesn't matter how you slice and dice it, THAT'S ALL IT CAN MANAGE.
> 
> Why do you think their is traffic management in the first place, not too difficult is it??


until you post some *evidence* that Virgin has throughput issues at the head end that will impact the TiVo service or existing broadband services, you're looking pretty stupid.

The fact that they practise traffic management is not evidence.


----------



## royfox

warrenrb said:


> Good work Roy. I'm really pleasantly surprised that they are bothering to talk to us at all. Great bit of customer relations from VM.
> 
> So - having signed up on the website for more info/early access, I'm guessing that on the unlikely chance they come through to me before late Jan with a chance to get one of these babies, I should SOMEHOW resist and wait for our 'special deal'?
> 
> Blimey, that's gonna be tough.


I can't seem the harm in waiting if I were in your position..

I agree.. it's good to see a large corporation like VM, actually talking to it's customer base and trying hard to keep them involved and happy.. That's a rare thing these days..


----------



## royfox

Milhouse said:


> royfox - for those of us who can't get VM cable (for one reason or another), are you able to determine from your VM source if the S1 TiVos will continue to be supported alongside the VM TiVo? It would be a disaster (not to mention ironic) if the S1 TiVos were to lose EPG support because TiVo had now returned to the UK...


It's a question I already have noted down.. I have to be honest, I think they are full speed ahead with the launch, so I'm not confident this is a question i will get answered at this stage.. I think this question would be destined to another department and not the launch people I'm talking with.. but.. i will ask..


----------



## steveroe

Thanks for the replies, I consider myself slightly more informed!


----------



## warrenrb

Ah. That's better.

Haven't had to use that one since Pete77.


----------



## royfox

warrenrb said:


> Ah. That's better.
> 
> Haven't had to use that one since Pete77.


Now that is a very cool feature.. do they do a wife nag ignore list too?


----------



## nbaker

Keep up the good work Roy :up:

So if you think existing series 1 owners will be offered a deal late January is this before or after release to the general public?

Also how will they know who are existing series 1 customers are? I am guessing it would be current subscribers only.

In which case wouldn't include me even though I have been a Tivo S1 user since day 1.

I originally paid monthly but my Tivo died so I cancelled my sub and bought a 2nd hand lifetime subbed machine off ebay which I am using to this day, so I guess no special offer for me


----------



## The Wishlist

mikerr said:


> Unlike ADSL, Cable can have several different services over one coax cable.
> 
> The single coax cable into the house serves any number of STBs and modems.
> 
> When you have mutliple STBs or multiple modems in a household, they just tee-off the coax anywhere on its route. The VM Tivo does this internally, but its no different.


----------



## cwaring

warrenrb said:


> Ah. That's better.
> 
> Haven't had to use that one since Pete77.


Now why didn't I think of that? That said, I like a good laugh


----------



## The Wishlist

cwaring said:


> Once again you seem to be jumping the gun with assumptions and thoughts that either make wild assumptions or are simply complete and utter rubbish.


Agreed, and thanks for saving me some free time this evening.


----------



## The Wishlist

The cable that runs into a house can be thought of like a motorway, with dedicated lanes for VOD; Linear Channels; Broadband; Phone. Virgin still have dozens of empty lanes left.

The DOCSIS 3 network upgrade was like dozens _more_ extra lanes being added - currently unused, free of traffic, ready to be used anyway Virgin wants to. Even with Virgin starting rollout of 100mb broadband today, there's loads of lanes/spare bandwidth left.

Tivo is just another lane of the motorway, with M42-style traffic management to ensure that video traffic never gets delayed and always get priority over standard IP traffic, _within its own lane only_. It certainly _doesn't_ take priority over any existing broadband connection; it _doesn't_ run through any existing cable modem or router; it _doesn't_ get STMed.

So, 10mb per TiVo on the network (even for each of Virgin's 3.7 million customers) isn't anything to worry about. It would barely be like Virgin saying to each customer, _'here, have a free HD channel. Its HD-ish, but its yours'_.

10mb would _barely_ be enough bandwidth for a HD channel encoded in MPEG 2, yet Virgin have added over 20 HD channels in the last year and plan to have _80_ within 3 years.

They have options in the future to save bandwidth: Using MPEG 4 instead of MPEG 2 for HD, and Switched Video to name just 2.

So anyone foaming at the mouth about TiVo affecting their existing connection is worrying about nothing.


----------



## hokkers999

warrenrb said:


> Ah. That's better.
> 
> Haven't had to use that one since Pete77.


Who is this Pete77 ??


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> Who is this Pete77 ??


All these comments proving you wrong and _that's_ all you have to say?! No apology? Why am I not surprised


----------



## EdGillett

Some say he loved his Tivo so much he actually started to resemble a Peanut remote. All we know is ... he's called Pete77.


----------



## Ovit-UK

And he's been Missing for a while, really surprised the new lease of life to the TiVo discussion has not disturbed the hibernation.


----------



## Lysander

Maybe he has been reborn in a new, but strangely similar username


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> All these comments proving you wrong and _that's_ all you have to say?! No apology? Why am I not surprised


That's because I'm not wrong.

You can have as many lanes as you like, a 24 lane M1 if you will, heck a 512 lane M1, but when you get to the North Circular it still all grinds to a halt. Traffic feeding onto your mythical motorway can take any lane and they'll never get held up. Traffic trying to get off it however....

Does anyone on here really believe that traffic management has *nothing* to do with lack of network capacity?

If there is so much capacity in the network there would be no management and no FUP.

A quick bit of maths from another post

3.7m customers x 10 meg = 37,000,000 megabits

by my maths that's 37,000 gigabits or 37 terabits....

...and before you all try and argue that it's all internal to vm, not with the outside links to stuff like youtube etc, etc, etc.

So let's call OC-192 10 gigabits, are you honestly trying to say that vm have 37,000 OC-192 interconnects - clearly they don't so something has to give. They have promised that the Tivo service is guaranteed so the stuff to suffer can only be everyone else's internet.


----------



## M_at

hokkers999 said:


> That's because I'm not wrong.


But equally you're not right.

DOCSIS has supported Quality of Service across the network at the MAC layer since version 1.1

Your TiVo's modem MAC address will be able to be recognised by VM's headend as a device to be garunteed service - this will provide stability for the TV service even if it's pseudo IP TV delivered to a TiVo flash app.

So this solves the physical access level.

Then we get to temporal issues - namely not everyone will be accessing the same full 10Mb stream at the same time.

Trust me on this - I know that VM have huge amounts of bandwidth available to them - I've watched large chunks of it being used up by streaming video.

Yes they don't have enough bandwidth to provide every user with 10Mb/s 24 x 7 but they do have enough bandwidth - or are actively increasing their bandwidth provision - to provide the sort of service that TiVo will help to provide.

To further hammer home my point - it's taken me about three minutes to write this post. That's a lot of time where my 20Mb connection with Virgin has not been downloading much. Hopefully you were able to put that 360Megabytes of potential traffic to some good use while I wasn't using it.

If not then kindly shut the hell up.


----------



## browellm

hokkers999 said:


> That's because I'm not wrong.
> 
> You can have as many lanes as you like, a 24 lane M1 if you will, heck a 512 lane M1, but when you get to the North Circular it still all grinds to a halt. Traffic feeding onto your mythical motorway can take any lane and they'll never get held up. Traffic trying to get off it however....
> 
> Does anyone on here really believe that traffic management has *nothing* to do with lack of network capacity?
> 
> If there is so much capacity in the network there would be no management and no FUP.
> 
> A quick bit of maths from another post
> 
> 3.7m customers x 10 meg = 37,000,000 megabits
> 
> by my maths that's 37,000 gigabits or 37 terabits....
> 
> ...and before you all try and argue that it's all internal to vm, not with the outside links to stuff like youtube etc, etc, etc.
> 
> So let's call OC-192 10 gigabits, are you honestly trying to say that vm have 37,000 OC-192 interconnects - clearly they don't so something has to give. They have promised that the Tivo service is guaranteed so the stuff to suffer can only be everyone else's internet.


Hahahaaaa, you think their utilisation is 100% ??

Get back under your bridge. Obvious troll is obvious.


----------



## mikerr

Hope the rumour of it being free for higher tiers is true (from cable forum.co.uk)

Existing Customers
VIP = Free - Set-up fee &#163;0 - Install fee &#163;0 - Monthly fee waived on XL
XL TV/Triple = Free - Set-up fee &#163;0 - Install fee &#163;0 - Monthly fee waived for 12 months
Existing XL TV = Discounted - Set-up fee &#163;149 - Install fee &#163;40 - Monthly fee &#163;3/pm

New Customers
(Joining from Sky/Freeview) Set-up fee &#163;149 - Install fee &#163;40 - Monthly fee &#163;3/pm
(new to Digital TV) Set-up fee &#163;199 - Install fee &#163;40 - Monthly fee &#163;3/pm


----------



## ColinYounger

browellm said:


> Obvious troll is obvious.


<snigger>.

I said that a while back.

STOP FEEDING THE TROLL.


----------



## hokkers999

browellm said:


> Hahahaaaa, you think their utilisation is 100% ??
> 
> Get back under your bridge. Obvious troll is obvious.


Even if it's only 10%, that's still nearly 400 OC-192 connections. A quick bit of googling suggests interconnects for around $20/megabit if taking in excess of 5 gigabits.

So, 37 million megabits x 10% = 3.7 million megabits x $20 = $75 million a month in interconnects fees.

Still think vm have the money or the required bandwidth?


----------



## hokkers999

M_at said:


> But equally you're not right.
> 
> DOCSIS has supported Quality of Service across the network at the MAC layer since version 1.1
> 
> Your TiVo's modem MAC address will be able to be recognised by VM's headend as a device to be garunteed service - this will provide stability for the TV service even if it's pseudo IP TV delivered to a TiVo flash app.
> 
> So this solves the physical access level.
> 
> Then we get to temporal issues - namely not everyone will be accessing the same full 10Mb stream at the same time.
> 
> Trust me on this - I know that VM have huge amounts of bandwidth available to them - I've watched large chunks of it being used up by streaming video.
> 
> Yes they don't have enough bandwidth to provide every user with 10Mb/s 24 x 7 but they do have enough bandwidth - or are actively increasing their bandwidth provision - to provide the sort of service that TiVo will help to provide.
> 
> To further hammer home my point - it's taken me about three minutes to write this post. That's a lot of time where my 20Mb connection with Virgin has not been downloading much. Hopefully you were able to put that 360Megabytes of potential traffic to some good use while I wasn't using it.
> 
> If not then kindly shut the hell up.


I didn't argue about the QoS guaranteeing the tivo the bandwidth it required, that's the whole point isn't it.

I notice that you very pointedly ignored my argument about when traffic needs to LEAVE the vm core....


----------



## browellm

hokkers999 said:


> Even if it's only 10%, that's still nearly 400 OC-192 connections. A quick bit of googling suggests interconnects for around $20/megabit if taking in excess of 5 gigabits.
> 
> So, 37 million megabits x 10% = 3.7 million megabits x $20 = $75 million a month in interconnects fees.
> 
> Still think vm have the money or the required bandwidth?


This will be last reply to you, troll. You're going in the ignore list after this.

You have no clue what an ISP's real world utilisation is - it's actually not much above 2%.

Then let's talk about subscribers. I'll be generous to you, and say that VM install TiVo to 10% of their entire TV base in the first six months. It won't be that many and it won't of course happen at once, but let's humour you and say it does.

Then your next assumption is that they've already maxxed out their existing head end bandwidth. This I don't know for certain, but as an educated guess, I'll call ********, because they are doing a phased roll-out of 100MB broadband *right now*.

So all in all, I would expect this to be part of their BAU organic growth plans.

Now, into my ignore file trolllolollol.


----------



## beara

So, picking up from Roy's excellent posts, I'm existing lifetime sub owner of an S1 and a triple play subscriber on XL with virgin with two V+ and a V box...but how will they link the two or how can I show I'm eligible? I'm certainly happy to wait for a good deal; don't like spending money to be an early adoipter if there is a deal to be done...


----------



## ColinYounger

If you search here, you'll notice our new troll has a theme.


----------



## royfox

beara said:


> So, picking up from Roy's excellent posts, I'm existing lifetime sub owner of an S1 and a triple play subscriber on XL with virgin with two V+ and a V box...but how will they link the two or how can I show I'm eligible? I'm certainly happy to wait for a good deal; don't like spending money to be an early adoipter if there is a deal to be done...


Jules,
I'm working with VM on ways to address your question. I asked the same question to them a few days ago. I've not got the answers just yet.. but.. I've already registered a web site and have offered to collate our (s1 owners) data should they need it from us.. just awaiting their input but as i'm sure you will agree, i think i'm a little low down on the priority list right at this moment.


----------



## mike0151

ColinYounger said:


> If you search here, you'll notice our new troll has a theme.


Tried that and got a "Sorry - no matches" result


----------



## ColinYounger

mike0151 said:


> Tried that and got a "Sorry - no matches" result


You may need to register - it works for me.

Basically, it's all the same stuff. Same arguments and examples.


----------



## The Wishlist

warrenrb said:


> Ah. That's better.
> 
> Haven't had to use that one since Pete77.


Didn't think I'd be using that feature so soon after joining! 

Oh well. :up:


----------



## beara

royfox said:


> Jules,
> I'm working with VM on ways to address your question. I asked the same question to them a few days ago. I've not got the answers just yet.. but.. I've already registered a web site and have offered to collate our (s1 owners) data should they need it from us.. just awaiting their input but as i'm sure you will agree, i think i'm a little low down on the priority list right at this moment.


Cheers Roy, I'm in no hurry after such a long wait already


----------



## cwaring

ColinYounger said:


> Basically, it's all the same stuff. Same arguments and examples.


Is he getting the same sort of responses? ie Can't accept he's wrong


----------



## hokkers999

ColinYounger said:


> If you search here, you'll notice our new troll has a theme.


Sorry to disappoint you but I don't post over there.


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> Is he getting the same sort of responses? ie Can't accept he's wrong


A quick googling suggests that vm broadcast hd (bbc anyway) at 17 mbps, h264 should reduce that eventually to about 10 mbs but who knows when.

So currently to watch one and record two hd channels needs 51 mbits, bit hard to get that down a 10 meg line no matter how you prioritise it.

Yes, I know at launch it's only 2 channels so only 34 mbits needed then


----------



## Tony Hoyle

The ignore list is cool  Can't believe I've been hanging around here so long an not noticed it before


----------



## hokkers999

browellm said:


> This will be last reply to you, troll. You're going in the ignore list after this.
> 
> You have no clue what an ISP's real world utilisation is - it's actually not much above 2%.
> 
> Then let's talk about subscribers. I'll be generous to you, and say that VM install TiVo to 10% of their entire TV base in the first six months. It won't be that many and it won't of course happen at once, but let's humour you and say it does.
> 
> Then your next assumption is that they've already maxxed out their existing head end bandwidth. This I don't know for certain, but as an educated guess, I'll call ********, because they are doing a phased roll-out of 100MB broadband *right now*.
> 
> So all in all, I would expect this to be part of their BAU organic growth plans.
> 
> Now, into my ignore file trolllolollol.


So does anyone on here know the cards used in the head ends, their cisco but what sort. It's a simple calculation.

They may be rolling out 100 meg now (7 areas out of how many) but not fully for TWO years yet, and the CONTENTION is what??

50:1 is the figure commonly bandied about, so one tivo 10 meg connection is the same as 5 x 100 meg internet connections.

or 25 customers on 20 meg.

Let's say 20 meg is the most popular home speed, every tivo takes the same bandwidth as 25 houses internet.

and before you bleat on about utilisation the tivo is buffering everything all of the time.

Hmmm....


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> So currently to watch one and record two hd channels needs 51 mbits, bit hard to get that down a 10 meg line no matter how you prioritise it.


You might have a point if any of the TV content (ie either the HD channels you refer to or OD content) actually came down the 10meg line in question which, of course, it doesn't.

The broadband connection is for their 'walled garden' internet access only.



hokkers999 said:


> ... before you bleat on about utilisation the tivo is buffering everything all of the time.


And, again, not only is the TV system completely seperate from the 10meg broadband connection, but the buffer that Tivo uses is on the internal hard drive anyway.



hokkers999 said:


> Hmmm....


Quite 

Put it this way, as the current V+ doesn't have it's own dedicated internet connection, how does _it_ buffer live tv and provide OD content? And why would Tivo be any different? The Tivo is a bit like a souped-up V+. They, essentially, both do the same job; the Tivo's just better at it with added functionality.

Seriously. Get a clue!


----------



## mikerr

hokkers999 said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but I don't post over there.


Then you have a twin, who shares your username and posting style - and same arguments! 
http://cableforum.co.uk/board/11/33645219-vod-dead.html#post34728650


----------



## ColinYounger

mikerr said:


> Then you have a twin, who shares your username and posting style - and same arguments!


Quite.  Those forums as well used to go by the name of "ntlhell" then "cablehell". I think you can guess that they're not pro-VM.

Anyway - enough time wasted. WHERE IS MY TIVO?


----------



## browellm

http://virgintivo.blogspot.com/2010/12/remote-recording-is-here-for-virgin.html

Quality! :up:


----------



## cwaring

Well spotted. They did say that that wouldn't be available "from the start" but it's nice to see they got it done ahead of schedule!


----------



## Modan

I'm posting on here in case I need to to be able to qualify for any special deals that VM are offereing for TiVo S1 owners. It's quite sureal seeing the same old names from all those years ago. It's great to see there are new topics for the flame wars though!

Of course I would be willing to pay pretty much anything to get my hands on one of these, but I'll keep that quiet in case VM are watching


----------



## royfox

Modan said:


> I'm posting on here in case I need to to be able to qualify for any special deals that VM are offereing for TiVo S1 owners. It's quite sureal seeing the same old names from all those years ago. It's great to see there are new topics for the flame wars though!
> 
> Of course I would be willing to pay pretty much anything to get my hands on one of these, but I'll keep that quiet in case VM are watching


Just make sure you keep an eye on this forum as when I'm advised information this will be the very first place I post it...


----------



## TCM2007

hokkers999 said:


> A quick googling suggests that vm broadcast hd (bbc anyway) at 17 mbps, h264 should reduce that eventually to about 10 mbs but who knows when.
> 
> So currently to watch one and record two hd channels needs 51 mbits, bit hard to get that down a 10 meg line no matter how you prioritise it.
> 
> Yes, I know at launch it's only 2 channels so only 34 mbits needed then


I can watch HD streamed just fine on my 6mbps ADSL line.

Anyway isn't the dedicated TiVo data line for VOD etc; the normal TV, HD or otherwise, comes down the normal cable connection? I've never had cable, so could be talking bollox.


----------



## cwaring

TCM2007 said:


> Anyway isn't the dedicated TiVo data line for VOD etc;...


Nope.



> the normal TV, HD or otherwise, comes down the normal cable connection?


As does OD content.



> ....so could be talking bollox.


No. There's only one person in this thread doing that and it isn't you


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> Well yeah, but that price includes the full XL Pack. It's only £3 per month really as you (currently at least) need to be on the XL pack to get the unit anyway,


Perhaps you should check the new sticky, it agrees with me and so does the vm press release, it's £26.50 a month....

***
Virgin Press release 01/12 giving pricing details - here
Standard price £199 plus £40 installation.
Monthly cost £26.50 with a Virgin phone line or £32.50 without.
"The service is launching with two tuners and will be updated with three tuners in early 2011."
***

Or are you trying to tell me that vm are wrong too


----------



## Milhouse

hokkers999 said:


> Or are you trying to tell me that vm are wrong too


No, just you (as usual).

The price you quoted and (and so far only price announced by VM) is for NEW customers to VM taking the £23.50 XL package in which case the premium for TiVo is as Carl stated, only £3. You'd have to be an idiot to think VM would charge £26.50 a month for a TiVo ON TOP of any TV package cost! 

And prices for EXISTING customers have not yet been announced.

It's pretty obvious you have serious problems with cognitive reasoning, or alternatively you enjoy arguing the toss even though it makes you look a clown.


----------



## OzSat

hokkers999 said:


> Perhaps you should check the new sticky, it agrees with me and so does the vm press release, it's £26.50 a month....
> 
> ***
> Virgin Press release 01/12 giving pricing details - here
> Standard price £199 plus £40 installation.
> Monthly cost £26.50 with a Virgin phone line or £32.50 without.
> "The service is launching with two tuners and will be updated with three tuners in early 2011."
> ***
> 
> Or are you trying to tell me that vm are wrong too


You are correct - it is £26.50 a month - but that includes the XL tv pack channels.

I suspect it will not be sold as XL + TiVo - but as the TXL pack or something like that.


----------



## cwaring

Milhouse said:


> You'd have to be an idiot to think VM would charge £26.50 a month for a TiVo ON TOP of any TV package cost!


I will say that the way it is written does seem to leave it open to mis-interpretation as the comment by Hokkers999 is one I have seen posted over on the DS Forums. Or perhaps, maybe, they _are_ all simply idiots 



ozsat said:


> I suspect it will not be sold as XL + TiVo - but as the TXL pack or something like that.


Not necessarily, oz. I assume that Tivo will, eventually, be made available to all susbcribers, whichever package they're on; though maybe those on lower packages will pay a higher premium (currently £3 on XL) than those on higher packages, as currently happens with the Sky Movies/Sports Premium channels.

In fact, as I understand it, some sort of Tivo-style interface will eventually be standard across _all_ VM STBs.

Interestingly, Hokkers999 does seem to have gone quiet on certain other topics on which he has been proved completely wrong


----------



## jodie98deg

Milhouse said:


> And prices for EXISTING customers have not yet been announced.


Hi Milhouse, though prices have not been officially announced, I've had VM CS tell me on two occasions that it will cost £149 + £40 install on my existing package which is *XL TV, XL Phone and XXL Broadband* with an extra cost of £3 per month.


----------



## Milhouse

jodie98deg said:


> Hi Milhouse, though prices have not been officially announced, I've had VM CS tell me on two occasions that it will cost £149 + £40 install on my existing package which is *XL TV, XL Phone and XXL Broadband* with an extra cost of £3 per month.


Is what you have also known as "XL Triple" (suspect it is)? If so that would suggest the "leaked prices" are no longer on the money as they indicated TiVo would be free to existing customers with XL Triple. The prices you have been quoted by VM CS would correspond to existing customers with only XL TV however.


----------



## Ovit-UK

I think over the past week its become clear that calling C.S and asking about pricing is resulting in too many varied answers, some staff seem to be aware of things and some have no idea what we're even asking about. 


It look like we'll have to wait a while for things to settle. 





Ovit


----------



## mikerr

LJ said:


> "The service is launching with two tuners and will be updated with three tuners in early 2011."





Pete77 said:


> How could they possibly fail to offer 3 tuners at the outset when their own V+ boxes have already had 3 tuners for several years


The V+ may have *3 *tuners, but you can only record *2* channels at once - the third is reserved for live tv channel hopping.

Will the TiVo implement it in the same way (eventually) ? At launch it will be a dual tuner device until a later software upgrade.


----------



## nbaker

nbaker said:


> Keep up the good work Roy :up:
> 
> So if you think existing series 1 owners will be offered a deal late January is this before or after release to the general public?
> 
> Also how will they know who are existing series 1 customers are? I am guessing it would be current subscribers only.
> 
> In which case wouldn't include me even though I have been a Tivo S1 user since day 1.
> 
> I originally paid monthly but my Tivo died so I cancelled my sub and bought a 2nd hand lifetime subbed machine off ebay which I am using to this day, so I guess no special offer for me


Just bumping this up as it got lost in the trolling 

Would like to know how many others here are using 2nd user lifetime subbed machines?


----------



## Tony Hoyle

I've got a 2nd user lifetime in the spare room.. currently not used.

There's a serial number on the back.. maybe some 'supply serial of S1 Tivo, get discount code' kind of deal?


----------



## cwaring

Sounds plausible, if not most likely, to me.


----------



## Pete77

Looking at the review at www.pocket-lint.com/news/37064/virgin-media-tivo-box-unveiled there is no Tivo button on the remote with a Tivo Guy on it. Instead there is only a button entitled Home where the Tivo button with the Tivo guy on it should be.:down::down::down:

Also why is this a non lightie up remote of the old school and not one of the light up affairs from the S3 Tivo series range.

Also despite earlier hollow promises I also don't see Virgin doing anything about making the product available in non Virgin cabled parts of the UK such as rural southern Surrey:down:


----------



## mikerr

Pete77 said:


> I also don't see Virgin doing anything about making the product available in non Virgin cabled parts of the UK


Well the cable based service is their main business after all !

While they provide an ADSL broadband product to non-cabled areas,
running TV services over broadband is not ideal - how well is BT Vision doing ?

I wouldn't expect any non-cable solution for a year or two really.


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> Looking at the review at www.pocket-lint.com/news/37064/virgin-media-tivo-box-unveiled there is no Tivo button on the remote with a Tivo Guy on it. Instead there is only a button entitled Home where the Tivo button with the Tivo guy on it should be.:down::down::down:


Annoying but not really surprising nor of any real consequence.



> Also why is this a non lightie up remote of the old school and not one of the light up affairs from the S3 Tivo series range.


Because they're cheaper, maybe. You don't get a "non-lightie up" one as standard with the US boxes either, as far as I know.



> Also despite earlier hollow promises I also don't see Virgin doing anything about making the product available in non Virgin cabled parts of the UK such as rural southern Surrey:down:


When were these promises made? Was there a time-line given? Has any such time-line now passed? In other words.... give 'em a ruddy chance


----------



## louis wu

Hi everyone. First post.
As a VM customer and reasonably happy V+ customer for several years I am looking forward to being able to get a tivo box. However reading some of the posts on this forum I'm getting a little nervous. Mainly about the stability of the software and the time it will take to reboot the box when necessary. Also seems most users dont use the hdui. Does anybody think the cisco box will perhaps be faster. Maybe by the time we get tivo they will have ironed out bugs. What does everybody else think?


----------



## cyril

I think most forum members here expect the TiVo box to be a thousand times better than V+ , Sky+ or anything else in the UK market, so I wouldn't worry too much!


----------



## Ovit-UK

cyril said:


> I think most forum members here expect the TiVo box to be a thousand times better than V+ , Sky+ or anything else in the UK market, so I wouldn't worry too much!


Nice one Cyril. 

sorry but been waitin a while to get that in.


----------



## cyril

I only get that about once a fortnight, for the last 30 years or so. I am guessing I am sort-of named after Cyril Knowles, as my family aren't big football fans, and the chant only became popular a few years after my birth


----------



## cwaring

Ovit-UK said:


> Nice one Cyril.
> 
> sorry but been waitin a while to get that in.


You know, in all these years on this forum I never once thought of that. Seriously!  Must be losing it, big-time 

Also, to Luis Wu... I wouldn't worry. You can safely ignore both Hokkers999 and Peter77. The Tivo will blow you away!


----------



## frobozz

cwaring said:


> You can safely ignore both Hokkers999 and Peter77.


----------



## royfox

Tony Hoyle said:


> I've got a 2nd user lifetime in the spare room.. currently not used.
> 
> There's a serial number on the back.. maybe some 'supply serial of S1 Tivo, get discount code' kind of deal?


This is the idea I have put forward to VM to enable us S1 owners to get "the deal".. It's not been approved yet but they are working on the idea and logistics on how to do it..
Roy


----------



## mikerr

VM are now advertising it on google :



and 
http://shop.virginmedia.com/digital...gn=Sitelinks&gclid=CJKf0M6o6aUCFSpq4wodhE6ABA









still leads to the flash demo page & register interest page,
nothing new there.


----------



## RichardJH

When I search Google for Tivo VM do not appear and if I link from your post it doesn't show either


----------



## hokkers999

louis wu said:


> Hi everyone. First post.
> As a VM customer and reasonably happy V+ customer for several years I am looking forward to being able to get a tivo box. However reading some of the posts on this forum I'm getting a little nervous. Mainly about the stability of the software and the time it will take to reboot the box when necessary. Also seems most users dont use the hdui. Does anybody think the cisco box will perhaps be faster. Maybe by the time we get tivo they will have ironed out bugs. What does everybody else think?


Reboots? What are they? Seriously the Tivo only gets rebooted when either

a. The power goes off
b. I upgrade the hard disk

Unlike Sky+ or V+ the Tivo "just works" - well S1's anyway - nobody's seen a vm one yet.


----------



## mikerr

RichardJH said:


> When I search Google for Tivo VM do not appear and if I link from your post it doesn't show either


Google ads appear at different times to different people, that's why I screenshotted it - but if you get no ads at all, turn off your adblocker!


----------



## hokkers999

mikerr said:


> Then you have a twin, who shares your username and posting style - and same arguments!
> http://cableforum.co.uk/board/11/33645219-vod-dead.html#post34728650


That profile over on the other board has been dormant for nearly 2 years...according to the board stats.

Is that the best you can do?


----------



## RichardJH

mikerr said:


> Google ads appear at different times to different people, that's why I screenshotted it - but if you get no ads at all, turn off your adblocker!


Thanks Mike have disabled AdBlock plus in Firefox for Google sites and now OK.
Never too old to learn


----------



## CeeBeeUK

hokkers999 said:


> That profile over on the other board has been dormant for nearly 2 years...according to the board stats.
> 
> Is that the best you can do?


What like the one on this forum that was dormant between 25th October 2008, 12:29 PM and 2nd November 2010, 08:08 PM?

No way it could be you then!


----------



## cwaring

LOL! I like it


----------



## hokkers999

CeeBeeUK said:


> What like the one on this forum that was dormant between 25th October 2008, 12:29 PM and 2nd November 2010, 08:08 PM?
> 
> No way it could be you then!


Not dormant on here, just nothing to say. Read plenty though.


----------



## jamiemc01

Just seen that Sky are going to let you reposition your HD Channels over the standard def channel locations, so for example BBC1 HD will be located where BBC1 is. I hope the VM Tivo will do the same.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/news/a292944/sky-to-introduce-new-hd-epg-system.html


----------



## royfox

jamiemc01 said:


> Just seen that Sky are going to let you reposition your HD Channels over the standard def channel locations, so for example BBC1 HD will be located where BBC1 is. I hope the VM Tivo will do the same.
> 
> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/news/a292944/sky-to-introduce-new-hd-epg-system.html


Jamie,
I may be missing something here but why would you want to do this and what benefit would it bring?

I think it would confuse the hell out of Mrs Fox (easily done thou)... as not all programs are broadcast in HD are they?


----------



## mikerr

It's because statistically most users end up watching channels at the top of the EPG, 
and that's also why broadcasters pay huge amounts of money to have a lower channel number, and therefore be higher up the EPG list.

*Being stuck to the TV guide like that is what TiVo set out to change originally though *

Ofcom state the five PSB channels have to be "prominent" and high up the list - I suppose this doesn't matter if BBC1 HD is essentially the same as BBC1

Difficult decision for ITV as they'd lose local advertising by agreeing to this (ITV HD isn't regional).

Another issue is that SD transmissions are 4:3 or widescreen on a per programme basis,
they user then decides how to view it.
All HD transmission on sky is widescreen - so black bars re added at source for 4:3.

Not to mention it effectively reducing the recording hours on a 160GB box from 80 hours (SD) to 20 hours (HD).


----------



## deshepherd

louis wu said:


> Hi everyone. First post.
> As a VM customer and reasonably happy V+ customer for several years I am looking forward to being able to get a tivo box. However reading some of the posts on this forum I'm getting a little nervous. Mainly about the stability of the software and the time it will take to reboot the box when necessary. Also seems most users dont use the hdui. Does anybody think the cisco box will perhaps be faster. Maybe by the time we get tivo they will have ironed out bugs. What does everybody else think?


Compared with my V-box the TiVo S1 is orders of magnitude better in terms of stability and UI. On the TiVo if I press up or down on a menu the highlight moves virtually immediately ... on the V-box it takes 5-10 secs to respond - that's if the box noticed that the remote was signalling.

I almost moved to a V+ box 12-18 months ago when VM had an offer for existing customers but eventually didn't purely because of the horrible UI experience on the V-box + indications I received that the V+box was not much better in this regard.


----------



## TCM2007

royfox said:


> Jamie,
> I may be missing something here but why would you want to do this and what benefit would it bring?
> 
> I think it would confuse the hell out of Mrs Fox (easily done thou)... as not all programs are broadcast in HD are they?


BBC1 HD (and C4 HD and ITV1 HD) are full simulcasts - even if the programme showing is not actually HD it's upscaled at the broadcasters end. So if you swap them then people watching channel 1 will default to watching HD.

It's what I've done with my Freeview setup - BBC 1 is renamed as BBC1 SD and moved to channel 50; BBC1 HD is moved to channel 1.


----------



## TCM2007

mikerr said:


> Difficult decision for ITV as they'd lose local advertising by agreeing to this (ITV HD isn't regional).


Yes it is. Not fully, but there are several different feeds now.


----------



## royfox

TCM2007 said:


> BBC1 HD (and C4 HD and ITV1 HD) are full simulcasts - even if the programme showing is not actually HD it's upscaled at the broadcasters end. So if you swap them then people watching channel 1 will default to watching HD.


OK.. well that makes a lot of sense then. Have to say, I don't watch any HD broadcasts yet as we rely so much on our Tivo and that being SD quality.

So yes, I agree.. It would be a useful feature to have..


----------



## mikerr

Channel numbers should be an irrelevence in 2010... 

On a TiVo you can set favourite channels and filter just those on screen,
and I assume you'll be able to do similar on the VM Tivo.

You can't change the order they appear in though on an S1 tivo - it orders them numerically, 
which did make for some strange ordering on analogue channels:

E.g. For the North West it was: FIVE(48)	BBC One(52) ITV1(55)	BBC TWO(62)	Channel 4(65)


----------



## M_at

jamiemc01 said:


> Just seen that Sky are going to let you reposition your HD Channels over the standard def channel locations, so for example BBC1 HD will be located where BBC1 is. I hope the VM Tivo will do the same.
> 
> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/news/a292944/sky-to-introduce-new-hd-epg-system.html


It's not quite that the'll let you do anything - they're going to swap all HD simulcasts over and it sounds like it'll be upto broadcasters to opt out of it.

I don't think there will be any choice in this.

I also expect that they will soon default to MPEG4 enabled boxes and downsample HD channels to SD outputs to get rid of the SD versions of the channels.


----------



## velocitysurfer1

From digispy "Sky customers will get access to the HD Swap Bouquet if they subscribe to at least one HD channel" which mean people that watch free HD on sky (like me) won't get the swapped channels. 

At least with TiVo, I can remove the sd channels from Channels that I receive. Theres even a hack to swap channel numbers around iirc.


----------



## Milhouse

A thread for the planned Sky HD EPG renumbering is here in the S1 UK forum (such discussion might be considered OT in the VirginMedia forum!)


----------



## Major dude

Just to wet the appetite before the end of Jan offer that Roy may have got for us, I have been looking at useful features of the TiVo Premiere and hope they will appear on the VM TiVo:

Confirmed features
1. Three tuners
2. 1TB HDD
3. iPad App
4. Streaming over home network


'Hoped for' features currently on Premiere

1. Search of 'My Shows' by alphabetical as well as date order
2. Undelete deleted shows option (I have done this a few times by mistake)
3. Built in 30 second scan
4. Multiroom streaming

Other wishlist features

1. Playback of iTunes music library via Airplay and optical out
2. Playback of TiVo recordings to Apple TV via Airplay


Any others you can think of?


----------



## cwaring

Of the "hoped for" list, I'm certain there is a 'sort' function. Will have to wait until I get one to confirm the rest


----------



## childe

Major dude said:


> 3. Built in 30 second scan


What is this?

Also, can I assume the new service will have the 30 minute (or longer?) buffer? Its a right pain with V+ when you join a programme in delay TV mode, decide you want to record it, and it then starts recording from the current live TV point, not the point where the programme started or even where you started watching it.

In a worst case this can actually mean losing the whole programme as the programme you are trying to record (and which you could continue to watch in Delay mode if you have the time) is already ended in Live TV. So perversely, pressing Record actually means you lose the opportunity to watch it at all!


----------



## mikerr

Even more bizarre is that recording the buffer worked fine on the trial of the TVDrive (V+)
but that feature was removed in a software update when it went public 

30 second scan is a skip forward 30 seconds on a button press, like you can do with remote codes on current tivos:
http://www.tivocentral.co.uk/codes/


----------



## dswallow

mikerr said:


> 30 second scan is a skip forward 30 seconds on a button press, like you can do with remote codes on current tivos:
> http://www.tivocentral.co.uk/codes/


Almost. It isn't an "instant skip" like the one you can enable by a code, but a scan -- a really quick scan through 30 seconds you're skipping, so you're seeing a second or so of video.

At least on the TiVo Premiere in the US you can still enable the traditional 30-second skip with the code, as an option.


----------



## Major dude

childe said:


> Also, can I assume the new service will have the 30 minute (or longer?) buffer?


Yes on the TiVo series 1 as soon as you hit the record button it will save the 30 minute buffer or everything since the last channel change within that 30 mins, so one would hope VM TiVo will do the same.

Reading a bit more about the Premiere it does not really stream except for TiVo recorded stuff to other Premieres/TiVo HDs.

They can be used in combination with Apple TV though but I am not sure how?


----------



## RichardJH

Major dude said:


> Yes on the TiVo series 1 as soon as you hit the record button it will save the 30 minute buffer


Or if the series 1 has been hacked the buffer can be even longer I have both of mine set to 2 hours. Very handy when you switch on and wish you had recorded the programme that is on live at that time


----------



## fysmd

ColinYounger said:


> I've got a plushie!


Me too


----------



## cwaring

I've got a T-shirt, mug and - somewhere - a pencil-top


----------



## M_at

cwaring said:


> I've got a T-shirt, mug and - somewhere - a pencil-top


Two plushies and somewhere I may still have the watch.


----------



## browellm

I hope we get some more details of the launch soon. I'm not sure if the soft toy discussion will continue to sustain me for much longer


----------



## rubbersponge

browellm said:


> I hope we get some more details of the launch soon. I'm not sure if the soft toy discussion will continue to sustain me for much longer


Hey, i work for virgin cust serv and we know little to nothing about this. no one knows a big deal about this! i am going into training on the tivo box. i dont want to say when the training is, just so i dont lose my job  but it is SOON!. so expect the launch to be big and soon! im very exited about this! i've had a good play on it at work today! i must say, it BLEW my mind.

I love to tease


----------



## deshepherd

rubbersponge said:


> Hey, i work for virgin cust serv and we know little to nothing about this


Isn't that the way its meant to be 



> I love to tease


Me too


----------



## warrenrb

I wonder who the first TiVo forum-er will be to rock up and post that they've got the new box. Maybe we should start a book on it... 

My money's on Royfox


----------



## royfox

warrenrb said:


> I wonder who the first TiVo forum-er will be to rock up and post that they've got the new box. Maybe we should start a book on it...
> 
> My money's on Royfox


I'd hold that bet if I were you.. I don't think it will be me as I'm away in China from the 8th Jan till the 22nd Jan, so there is a bloody good chance I won't be the first...


----------



## warrenrb

Haha I wondered if you'd bite on that one... I know you aren't getting special treatment. 

I'm guessing with the weather et al, there's probably nobody in the UK getting an install before Xmas now, barring maybe a few VM staff.

Roll on January!


----------



## mrwhizzard

warrenrb said:


> Haha I wondered if you'd bite on that one... I know you aren't getting special treatment.
> 
> I'm guessing with the weather et al, there's probably nobody in the UK getting an install before Xmas now, barring maybe a few VM staff.
> 
> Roll on January!


Yep, only a handful of VM staff being installed pre-Xmas and even most of those now have to wait until new year for their installs. Am sure most of you have already registered interest on VM's TiVo website, so am sure you will be "rewarded for your enthusiasm" as they say. Would imagine its pre-registrations and existing customers getting the first roll of the dice early in 2011.


----------



## Ovit-UK

warrenrb said:


> I wonder who the first TiVo forum-er will be to rock up and post that they've got the new box. Maybe we should start a book on it...
> 
> My money's on Royfox


Well hows about first in Norn Iron then? 

Have to say I haven't seen anyone over here even hint at trialing it yet, you'd expect at least a few.

Ovit.


----------



## royfox

I would imagine there would be a strict non disclosure agreement in place.. thats what I would do if I were them.. 

Just a quick update.

I've asked again about current S1 owners that can't move over to cable for what ever reason. Will EPG data still available for these machines moving forward. I've not got any answers yet, but they are looking into this for me.

Will keep you all posted..
Roy

TiVo LESS as my S1 decided to pack up last night.. the launch can't come quick enough....


----------



## mrwhizzard

royfox said:


> I would imagine there would be a strict non disclosure agreement in place.. thats what I would do if I were them..
> 
> Just a quick update.
> 
> I've asked again about current S1 owners that can't move over to cable for what ever reason. Will EPG data still available for these machines moving forward. I've not got any answers yet, but they are looking into this for me.
> 
> Will keep you all posted..
> Roy
> 
> TiVo LESS as my S1 decided to pack up last night.. the launch can't come quick enough....


There are indeed NDAs in place for those who have been or are currently trialling/testing the boxes, common practise really. I know everyone is chomping at the bit to find out more and the TiVo pre-registration site has only served to accelerate it but I'd imagine it won't be much longer until it's launch into the wild begins. We've waited this long, so what's a few more weeks going to hurt?


----------



## M_at

warrenrb said:


> I wonder who the first TiVo forum-er will be to rock up and post that they've got the new box. Maybe we should start a book on it...
> 
> My money's on Royfox


Given my join date to the forum and the date I first got Tivo ( Before I joined the forum!  ) I'm hoping it's me - I miss my TiVo and am currently subscribed to the XL Virgin package :up:


----------



## warrenrb

M_at said:


> Given my join date to the forum and the date I first got Tivo ( Before I joined the forum!  ) I'm hoping it's me - I miss my TiVo and am currently subscribed to the XL Virgin package :up:


"Miss my TiVo"? You're not even still using one! Call yourself a fan?


----------



## hokkers999

warrenrb said:


> "Miss my TiVo"? You're not even still using one! Call yourself a fan?


Can't imagine life without my S1 now, I've bought one for my father in law and my youngest daughter as well....


----------



## baward

royfox said:


> I've asked again about current S1 owners that can't move over to cable for what ever reason. Will EPG data still available for these machines moving forward. I've not got any answers yet, but they are looking into this for me.
> 
> Will keep you all posted..
> Roy.


That's much appreciated Roy, thanks.

Ben


----------



## royfox

The answer from VM for those people that are not able to move to cable is:

"For customers who aren't in a cable area, I believe TiVo will be in touch with them directly with regards to their EPG data."

Not really sure that constitutes a reply but unfortunately I think its the only one my internal contact can give to me.. 

Roy


----------



## PhilG

royfox said:


> The answer from VM for those people that are not able to move to cable is:
> 
> "For customers who aren't in a cable area, I believe TiVo will be in touch with them directly with regards to their EPG data."
> 
> Not really sure that constitutes a reply but unfortunately I think its the only one my internal contact can give to me..
> 
> Roy


Hmmm

Think I'll start taking more interest in my daily calls (luckily DailyMail tells me when one fails) and my guide data "end date" for a while

At least as a monthly subbed user, they do have an opportunity to take some money off me monthly if they want it - I've got used to that £10 disappearing every month (and haven't got around to spending it on anything else yet )

Phil G


----------



## martink0646

royfox said:


> The answer from VM for those people that are not able to move to cable is:
> 
> "For customers who aren't in a cable area, I believe TiVo will be in touch with them directly with regards to their EPG data."
> 
> Not really sure that constitutes a reply but unfortunately I think its the only one my internal contact can give to me..
> 
> Roy


That doesn't sound like good news I thought I saw on here someone mention that the guide data used by S1's & by newer TiVo's is the same. If so I don't think there will be a prob. If it's different I can't see anyone TiVo, Virgin, Sky) spending any money on keeping us going.

We may need to speak to mikerr about a new data source. I think he can do it.

Martin


----------



## Milhouse

royfox said:


> The answer from VM for those people that are not able to move to cable is:
> 
> "For customers who aren't in a cable area, I believe TiVo will be in touch with them directly with regards to their EPG data."
> 
> Not really sure that constitutes a reply but unfortunately I think its the only one my internal contact can give to me..
> 
> Roy


Thanks Roy, although this does sound more than a little ominous....


----------



## royfox

Got to be honest. I thought it sounded better than a "don't know". 

It's a difficult call for TiVo. Afterall, I don't think this is a VM concern. 

If you are right and the guide data is in fact the same, that sounds like a promising avenue to allow TiVo to provide the data directly. Although, not sure how lifetime subs would work for them in terms of cash in to fund the delivery. 

Would be interesting to determine what " lifetime " actually means? I would assume the lifetime of the machine, as most if not all of us have added to or modified the machine in various ways, i would imagine that would invalidate the contract. 
As I say. A difficult call. As my operations director always says to me when the sh1t is about to hit. "I'm glad I'm not the MD, and have to make that decision "...


----------



## PhilG

martink0646 said:


> That doesn't sound like good news I thought I saw on here someone mention that the guide data used by S1's & by newer TiVo's is the same. If so I don't think there will be a prob. If it's different I can't see anyone TiVo, Virgin, Sky) spending any money on keeping us going.
> 
> We may need to speak to mikerr about a new data source. I think he can do it.
> 
> Martin


Certainly, a LONG while ago, someone talked about a mechanism to get guide data from "elsewhere" - but this was a "not for discussion" topic so long as Tivo/Sky or whoever were happy to take our money

But, if this should change, I'd hope this forum would be a good place to discuss keeping our S1 Tivos going on a DIY basis


----------



## M_at

warrenrb said:


> "Miss my TiVo"? You're not even still using one! Call yourself a fan?


I left the TiVo clan when I got Homechoice - TiVo Series 1 didn't handle non linear TV at all and I ended up using the Homechoice service directly more and more.

I sold it, hopefully to a happy family, complete with lifetime subscription.

But now that TiVo and cable appear to have joined together to make TV right again I want back in


----------



## hokkers999

royfox said:


> The answer from VM for those people that are not able to move to cable is:
> 
> "For customers who aren't in a cable area, I believe TiVo will be in touch with them directly with regards to their EPG data."
> 
> Not really sure that constitutes a reply but unfortunately I think its the only one my internal contact can give to me..
> 
> Roy


...sounds like they intend to cut the S1 clan loose. It's not only the non cabled users, what about all of us who are on cable but have no intention of moving to a new one?


----------



## cwaring

What abou you? You have the choice to get a new one when they are made availabe. If you do not wish to take up that offer (or any special one that VM offer the users of this group) then what, exactly, can VM do? Force you? 

If you are "cut loose", there's nothing to suggest you will lose your service. Tivo may just take you on themselves. Pure speculation, of course, but so is anything else at this stage.


----------



## dswallow

cwaring said:


> What abou you? You have the choice to get a new one when they are made availabe. If you do not wish to take up that offer (or any special one that VM offer the users of this group) then what, exactly, can VM do? Force you?
> 
> If you are "cut loose", there's nothing to suggest you will lose your service. Tivo may just take you on themselves. Pure speculation, of course, but so is anything else at this stage.


Never underestimate the desire of the average human, in the absence of actual facts, to worry themselves into a panic. Actually I'm not really certain actual facts matter one way or the other to this human capability.


----------



## TCM2007

To keep the S1 data going, someone has to pay for the non Virgin channels to be maintained, as well as the telephone costs of those still dialling in with a modem (aww, quaint).

TiVo funded that, largely, IMHO, to make re-entry into the UK market easier with no disgruntled former owners knocking about. now TiVo is back, on the back of a much bigger brand, that usefulness may well be at an end.

No-one could really complain about a service being discontinued for a box which hasn't been sold for what, 8 years?


----------



## cwaring

I'll bet I know at least one person who might


----------



## Tony Hoyle

Lifetime sub should mean lifetime IMO.. but I don't think I'd kick up *too* much fuss if the S1 support ended (just set my S1 back up for christmas.. the magic hasn't gone - it's so far ahead of anything else).


----------



## steveroe

As a lifetime subscription series 1 owner who does not live in a cabled area then I'd be gutted if they ended the guide data for series 1 machines.


----------



## cwaring

New link, just found on DS 
http://www.virginmedia.com/tvradio/tivo/10-cool-things-tivo-can-do-for-you.php?ssid=1


----------



## Milhouse

steveroe said:


> As a lifetime subscription series 1 owner who does not live in a cabled area then I'd be gutted if they ended the guide data for series 1 machines.


Same here... without the option of ever receiving the Virgin service I'd be stuck with Sky, and even the SkyHD interface is a major step backwards in terms of functionality and usability.

I agree we've had a good run - I've been on lifetime since the day I bought TiVo back in 2001 - but I'm certainly not going to accept the loss of TiVo so easily (should it come to that).

I hate to say this, as it's only a TV recording device, but after almost 10 years of constant and flawless service (and many more left in the tank) I think I'd be quite distraught if it were to become a doorstop just so that TiVo can save a few quid.


----------



## TCM2007

We looped round this the last time the service looked doomed. TiVo are probably obliged to provide the service to lifetimers so long as they provide it. But they don't have to provide it forever.


----------



## childe

cwaring said:


> New link, just found on DS
> http://www.virginmedia.com/tvradio/tivo/10-cool-things-tivo-can-do-for-you.php?ssid=1


On slide 8 it says "With TiVo you can be in three places at the same time: recording two programmes while watching a third. Why pick between your favourite soaps, reality shows or movies when you can have them all at your beck and call?"

This sounds like the V+, with 3 active tuners. I thought on day 1 the new Tivo would only have 2 active tuners, with the third to be enabled in the near future. Or have I misunderstood?


----------



## cwaring

You are correct. I spotted that too.


----------



## mrwhizzard

childe said:


> On slide 8 it says "With TiVo you can be in three places at the same time: recording two programmes while watching a third. Why pick between your favourite soaps, reality shows or movies when you can have them all at your beck and call?"
> 
> This sounds like the V+, with 3 active tuners. I thought on day 1 the new Tivo would only have 2 active tuners, with the third to be enabled in the near future. Or have I misunderstood?


You're assuming that day one is imminent of course. Who's not to say that when day one arrives they wont have already implemented the third tuner. As for the cabled and non cabled discussion, surely based on TiVo's past heritage it would be safe to say they surely must be looking at an option for their off network customers.


----------



## TCM2007

I very much doubt they will have a non-cable offering using tiVo. From VM's point of view they've licensed in some cool STB software, probably at a much lower price than developing the next-gen V+ software for themselves. That's it.


----------



## warrenrb

According to this very good VM Blog, so-called 'VIP' VM customers will be getting priority come January. Anyone here a VIP? I'm not.

http://vmhd.blogspot.com/2010/12/tivo-for-vips-in-january.html


----------



## Tony Hoyle

warrenrb said:


> According to this very good VM Blog, so-called 'VIP' VM customers will be getting priority come January. Anyone here a VIP? I'm not.
> 
> http://vmhd.blogspot.com/2010/12/tivo-for-vips-in-january.html


It's just a quote from a VM CS bloke, and we all know how reliable they are..

On Cable Forum there are also a few people saying CS are insisting to them it's all XL customers who get it first.

Plus a few who are saying nobody gets anything until March...


----------



## martink0646

TCM2007 said:


> No-one could really complain about a service being discontinued for a box which hasn't been sold for what, 8 years?


I'm not complaining, I understand the issues from a business pov, I just want to explore all the options for if/when we lose the guide data.

I have a Humax Freesat HD box & admittedly do an increasing amount of my viewing from that. TiVo is fed by a freeview stb & I use it mainly now for recording films & archiving via tytools. If the service ended it wouldn't be a disaster, but I most certainly would try to keep it going!

Martin


----------



## PhilG

TCM2007 said:


> No-one could really complain about a service being discontinued for a box which hasn't been sold for what, 8 years?


And why not?

I can certainly complain if I am not offered an alternative - and in a non-cabled area I don't


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## Pete77

PhilG said:


> I can certainly complain if I am not offered an alternative - and in a non-cabled area I don't have one


Motion Seconded.:up:


----------



## dvdfever

PhilG said:


> And why not?
> 
> I can certainly complain if I am not offered an alternative - and in a non-cabled area I don't


And if they do end it, will they send something out in the software to stop making it think it'll still get updates? I disconnected my old one, which I still use occasionally in the bedroom, and that harrasses me every bloody day that it needs updating, but I'm not doing so because I transferred my customer number (or whatever it is) across to the new one, and if I was to update two boxes with the same number, I expect they'd both go south.


----------



## RichardJH

dvdfever said:


> and if I was to update two boxes with the same number


AFAIK that wont matter as long as both boxes are not trying to do the same thing at the same time. Get into a routine of only having one plugged into the phone line or LAN at a time.


----------



## TCM2007

PhilG said:


> And why not?
> 
> I can certainly complain if I am not offered an alternative - and in a non-cabled area I don't


Well you can complain, obviously. But I don't think you have any real grounds. Standalone TiVos haven't been sold for nearly a decade; to expect indefinite support of old long deprecated technology is not reasonable.


----------



## cwaring

I've been trying to think of a way to phrase it for days. Couldn't have put it better myself.


----------



## PhilG

cwaring said:


> I've been trying to think of a way to phrase it for days. Couldn't have put it better myself.


Except I am not asking for "support of the hardware" I'm asking for continuation of the guide data, which is something else altogether

Oh, and as someone who works daily with IBM enterprise architecture, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a longer life from technology than a few years


----------



## Pete77

PhilG said:


> Oh, and as someone who works daily with IBM enterprise architecture, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a longer life from technology than a few years


I couldn't agree more.

My mother's 12 year old Volvo V70 has done 100,000 miles and never needs any maintenance except for tyres, oil and brake pads.

However TCM2007 works for a magazine dedicated to selling short term and often poorly made throw away supposedly high tech consumer technology so clearly knows on which side his bread is buttered.


----------



## okonski_uk

Back in the 'middle age' of TiVo when there was some doubt to them continuing to offer an EPG service, I recall we were advised there would be a block firmware update that would permit users to make fully manual recordings, unhindered by lack of a valid EPG, making your purchase a working PVR instead of a hi-tech door-wedge.

Irrespective of who is looking after S1 subscriptions, I would still hope that this 'nuclear' option remains available for all with active Tivo's.


----------



## dvdfever

PhilG said:


> Except I am not asking for "support of the hardware" I'm asking for continuation of the guide data, which is something else altogether


I could understand them not wanting to do this, in a bid to shift us over to Virgin Media, but I doubt I'd switch. I use a Sky box with my TiVo and have just got rid of any subscription channels as I don't watch them that much so don't want an expensive subscription with VM.

It's too much of a draw with my original TiVo that I can rip programmes straight from the hard drive, and that's something I won't be able to do with the new one. Okay, so my TiVo won't be in HD, blah blah blah, but if I'm desperate for HD then I'll download the programme and even when I did that with something recently, all HD channels think we're so retarded that we need a logo to tell us that we're watching a more detailed image.


----------



## TCM2007

The service costs money to provide, and there is currently no income to pay for it. At some point they will stop, when they believe that the goodwill in keeping ancient boxes running no longer justifies the cost. I wouldn't turn it off during the launch period for the Virgin box if I was them, don't want any risk of bad headlines. But as time goes on it will be harder and harder to us portray the cancellation of the service as unreasonable, so the damage of doing so gets less and less. Likely trigger points are likely to be contract renewal for Tribune and for the dial-up service provider. Or an accountant doing a cost review.

Pete, a more accurate motoring analogy might be a 20 year old Volvo which requires leaded petrol. Fewer and fewer petrol stations sold LRP as fewer and fewer cars needed it, and now it's not available at all. 

"Bhort term and often poorly made throw away supposedly high tech" - back under your bridge, troll.


----------



## dswallow

TCM2007 said:


> The service costs money to provide, and there is currently no income to pay for it. At some point they will stop, when they believe that the goodwill in keeping ancient boxes running no longer justifies the cost. I wouldn't turn it off during the launch period for the Virgin box if I was them, don't want any risk of bad headlines. But as time goes on it will be harder and harder to us portray the cancellation of the service as unreasonable, so the damage of doing so gets less and less. Likely trigger points are likely to be contract renewal for Tribune and for the dial-up service provider. Or an accountant doing a cost review.
> 
> Pete, a more accurate motoring analogy might be a 20 year old Volvo which requires leaded petrol. Fewer and fewer petrol stations sold LRP as fewer and fewer cars needed it, and now it's not available at all.
> 
> "Bhort term and often poorly made throw away supposedly high tech" - back under your bridge, troll.


There's very little real reason this service could not be kept going at very minimal cost by whoever has to create the guide data that the new Virgin unit would use.

Dial-up gateways to private or public internet addresses are commonplace; it's purely a matter of cost. Virgin or any other provider will not operate their own; they'll contract with companies already providing this service that already will have abundant dial-in ports through the covered areas. These companies service all sorts of operators, including such common uses as credit card authorization terminals. Costs are cheap, and they're not going away anytime soon.

The guide data already has to be processed for the Virgin units; and the formats required are very similar if not completely the same. Perhaps there's some packaging differences in the very old Series 1 units to account for data that the new units may handle that didn't exist for the old ones. So you're talking about literally needing no more than perhaps a different daily batch processing of the already-consolidated guide data in order to create the chunks needed for Series 1 users.

It's not like any of this has to be created from scratch; the infrastructure already exists. Worst case is it simply has to be moved to another facility.

Heck, for as little as it typically costs for phone calls these days, TiVo could probably just offer a US dial-in number and provide the guide data directly.

So yeah, there still has to be an actually willingness to continue providing this service. But really, if its costs weren't being covered, isn't it likely it'd have been shut down by now?


----------



## Milhouse

cwaring said:


> I've been trying to think of a way to phrase it for days. Couldn't have put it better myself.


I can't but help read that as a very smug comment from someone who is able to receive Virgin Media. It's probably not how you meant it, but that's how it reads.

It would be a shame if those who have long supported TiVo and the members of this community in the UK but are able to receive VM now suddenly take the attitude that the old S1 community no longer matters as they switch on their new multi-tuner digital TiVo...


----------



## cwaring

Milhouse said:


> I can't but help read that as a very smug comment from someone who is able to receive Virgin Media. It's probably not how you meant it, but that's how it reads.


My sincerest apologies. You are right in that is not, in any way, how I meant it.

I'm pretty good with the English Language (as my O Level will tell you ) but I do sometimes phrase things badly and then think how to phrase it better sometime after the fact.

That is all I meant by the comment.


----------



## Milhouse

Apology accepted.


----------



## scoopuk

royfox said:


> Would be interesting to determine what " lifetime " actually means? I would assume the lifetime of the machine, as most if not all of us have added to or modified the machine in various ways, i would imagine that would invalidate the contract.


Maybe I'm in a very small minority here but the TiVo I'm using is still unmodded but on a lifetime contract - so I'm hoping they stick to their word. At the end of the day it did cost quite a bit of money to have a lifetime subscription - and I'm sure TiVo and Virgin Media would prefer to avoid any publicity about reneging on contract commitments.

Now if only Virgin would cable my street here on central London - it wouldn't be a problem etc etc...


----------



## TCM2007

@dswallow - Virgin media provide a cable Internet connection to the box, so they don't need to provide an analogue dialup connection, it exists solely for old S1s. The dialup connection is on a freephone number, so each call in costs TiVo cash.

Unfortunately it's just been announced that Virgin are directly contracting for guide data, not sourcing it from TiVo, so S1s can't piggyback on the new box's data.


----------



## cwaring

TCM2007 said:


> Unfortunately it's just been announced that Virgin are directly contracting for guide data, not sourcing it from TiVo, so S1s can't piggyback on the new box's data.


Ahh. So that's what that announcement meant.


----------



## TCM2007

Well that's my interpretation.


----------



## dswallow

TCM2007 said:


> @dswallow - Virgin media provide a cable Internet connection to the box, so they don't need to provide an analogue dialup connection, it exists solely for old S1s. The dialup connection is on a freephone number, so each call in costs TiVo cash.
> 
> Unfortunately it's just been announced that Virgin are directly contracting for guide data, not sourcing it from TiVo, so S1s can't piggyback on the new box's data.


As I said, Virgin doesn't need to provide any telephone dialup; that's contracted to a third party who provides the dialup gateway which essentially connects you to either the public internet or a private network of some sort -- whatever the customer chooses to have the gateway do.

Even if Virgin is directly contracting for the guide data, they still must process it in some manner for the TiVo boxes to use, and the guide data they're starting with is unlikely to be any different than what the previous/current folks use. In other words, it's pretty simple for Virgin to provide this service, either contracted by TiVo to support the remaining S1 customers, or directly serviced by Virgin, since they have most everything necessary already.

There's plenty of reason for Virgin to service these customers; it's a minor cost to them, and it's more likely a small profit to them. And if nothing else, it's good will to customers who may potentially become Virgin customers directly at some point.

Heck, there's even the group in Australia/New Zealand who was providing guide data themselves to grey-market TiVo's up until TiVo officially entered the market. I'm sure somewhere someone still has the necessary knowledge and software to pass that on. So there's even that opportunity to service the remaining S1's in the UK, as a really-worst-case last-resort.

How's that book go? Don't Panic.


----------



## warrenrb

I think the very clear lesson here is, as a company, you should never offer a product with the rather ambiguous 'lifetime' in the title!

Personally I'm glad they did, as I have greatly benefited from it these last 8 years or so, but it seems foolhardy from a commercial point-of-view. They don't do that anymore in the US, right?

Before the VM TiVo was announced, I was resigned to the fact that I'd "had my money's worth" from TiVo, and wouldn't have had much complaint if they'd wrapped things up. In fact, every time I get that 'new message' on TiVo, I'm slightly apprehensive before reading it (it's ALWAYS a channel move of course!).

S1 TiVo, despite what we feel personally about it, has moved very much into 'hobbyist' territory in the last few years, IMHO.

Hopefully there'll be a 'hack' to keep the data going, if it finally dries up from the official source... my mum & dad would miss theirs terribly, and there's no way they can afford to switch onto an XL virgin TV package.


----------



## TCM2007

dswallow said:


> As I said, Virgin doesn't need to provide any telephone dialup; that's contracted to a third party who provides the dialup gateway which essentially connects you to either the public internet or a private network of some sort -- whatever the customer chooses to have the gateway do.


TiVo has to pay for the freephone number. There are no revenues from S1 TiVo boxes at present. So TiVo is losing money on servicing S1s just from the phone cost, never mind the EPG costs. That's the problem.



> Even if Virgin is directly contracting for the guide data, they still must process it in some manner for the TiVo boxes to use, and the guide data they're starting with is unlikely to be any different than what the previous/current folks use.


It will be for the channels which are on Virgin cable. Not the others though.



> There's plenty of reason for Virgin to service these customers; it's a minor cost to them, and it's more likely a small profit to them. And if nothing else, it's good will to customers who may potentially become Virgin customers directly at some point.


I don't see how it can be a profit when there is no revenue. I'm sure most/all S1 TiVo users in Virgin areas will convert anyway, and if you're not in Virgin area you're not a potential customer.


----------



## velocitysurfer1

TCM2007 said:


> I don't see how it can be a profit when there is no revenue. I'm sure most/all S1 TiVo users in Virgin areas will convert anyway, and if you're not in Virgin area you're not a potential customer.


There is no revenue for us 'lifers', but there is from those who pay monthly. Remember that it's TiVo who have given the monthly payers a indefinite freebie.

Whilst I don't know how many monthly payers there are in the UK, I'm sure the revenue from them outstrips the cost of providing the free phone number.


----------



## royfox

velocitysurfer1 said:


> There is no revenue for us 'lifers', but there is from those who pay monthly. Remember that it's TiVo who have given the monthly payers a indefinite freebie.
> 
> Whilst I don't know how many monthly payers there are in the UK, I'm sure the revenue from them outstrips the cost of providing the free phone number.


What about those monthly payers that will stop because they move to the new platform? I for one will be in that category..

Be an interesting calculation i think..


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> I don't see how it can be a profit when there is no revenue. I'm sure most/all S1 TiVo users in Virgin areas will convert anyway, and if you're not in Virgin area you're not a potential customer.


At the moment S1 Lifetime machines still receive service in the USA despite there being numerous updated Tivo products to choose from. Therefore I can't see any prospect of S1 machines in the UK that do not have a replacement source of Tivo service being ditched (i.e. all machines located in non Tivo cabled areas).

And as to who is picking up the tab for maintaining the data service to the machines surely it is Tivo Inc and not Virgin.

The trouble with TCM is that he is an obsessive early adopter and cannot possibly imagine why somebody would go using an S1 Tivo just because they are still wholly content with it like an old comfortable pair of shoes.



> TiVo funded that, largely, IMHO, to make re-entry into the UK market easier with no disgruntled former owners knocking about. now TiVo is back, on the back of a much bigger brand, that usefulness may well be at an end.


Nonsense. With the Tivo brand now in public use again in the UK it is more vital than ever that nothing is done to damage it.

Also I'm sure Virgin's plans extend to providing their network on BT exchanges once all the stuff on duct sharing and so on is force and BT has BT Infinity (Fibre To The Cabinet) enabled a lot more of its exchanges. So why upset people who may want to become Virgin Tivo customers down the road.

TCM really should join a bank or a utility company with his attitude towards stabbing loyal customers in the bank being the right thing to do.



TCM2007 said:


> Fewer and fewer petrol stations sold LRP as fewer and fewer cars needed it, and now it's not available at all.


Unfortunately your facts are incorrect TCM and LRP is still available, albeit from a somewhat exclusive band of petrol retailers.

See http://fbhvc.co.uk/fuel-information/#f3


----------



## mikerr

Pete77 said:


> And as to who is picking up the tab for maintaining the data service to the machines surely it is not Tivo Inc and not Virgin.


Huh? It's TiVo paying - obviously.

If they wanted to save money they could ditch the freephone 0800 number, as there's any number of UUNET POPs there to replace it, with little inconvenience to even an unhacked tivo user - as british ex-pats in spain etc already do:
(just enter new phone number in dial prefix - http://www.tivocentral.co.uk/phone-finder.php)


----------



## dswallow

Weren't there still UK monthly-fee subscriptions active? I recall reading a few months or so ago when people were reporting getting a notice that, at least for now, they'd be getting the TiVo service at no charge until further notice.


----------



## velocitysurfer1

dswallow said:


> Weren't there still UK monthly-fee subscriptions active? I recall reading a few months or so ago when people were reporting getting a notice that, at least for now, they'd be getting the TiVo service at no charge until further notice.


That was the point I made in post #436


----------



## Pete77

mikerr said:


> Huh? It's TiVo paying - obviously.


Typo on my part - it should have read "surely it is Tivo Inc and not Virgin"

Now corrected.


----------



## Pete77

mikerr said:


> If they wanted to save money they could ditch the freephone 0800 number, as there's any number of UUNET POPs there to replace it, with little inconvenience to even an unhacked tivo user - as british ex-pats in spain etc already do:


That's clearly not suitable as an officially supported solution though. Although I have no idea whether changing the phone number automatically can be rolled out with the Guide Data or is only possible via a firmware update. But think how many support calls Sky might be hit by if what you suggest was done and what the real cost of supporting each of those calls would be.

I use a call carrier called www.18185.co.uk that lets me make a call to any UK number starting 01, 02 or 03 for 5p in the weekday daytime from my PostOffice Homephone rented line (when those calls are not part of my line rental plan) of any length up to 2 hours. So 365 x5p would only be £18.25 Not ideal obviously but think how many years of £120 they have had and anyhow perhaps the £10 monthly payments will start again once all of Virgin's new Tivo billing systems are fully online.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> At the moment S1 Lifetime machines still receive service in the USA despite there being numerous updated Tivo products to choose from. Therefore I can't see any prospect of S1 machines in the UK that do not have a replacement source of Tivo service being ditched (i.e. all machines located in non Tivo cabled areas).


The US situation is entirely different; standalone TiVo's are still on sale there which use the same data.



> And as to who is picking up the tab for maintaining the data service to the machines surely it is Tivo Inc and not Virgin.


Er, yes. And it's TiVo who will, one day, pull the plug. The original TiVo owners are not the responsibility of Virgin in any way.



> The trouble with TCM is that he is an obsessive early adopter and cannot possibly imagine why somebody would go using an S1 Tivo just because they are still wholly content with it like an old comfortable pair of shoes.


I entirely understand it. Ultimately though TiVo won't keep on paying to create and deliver the service for no revenue forever. Why should they?



> With the Tivo brand now in public use again in the UK it is more vital than ever that nothing is done to damage it.


How would shutting S1 Tivos down damage it? Who, apart from this board, would give a toss? Can't see Watchdog taking up the fight for people who are using obsolete decade old tech and have had great value from it for years.



> Also I'm sure Virgin's plans extend to providing their network on BT exchanges once all the stuff on duct sharing and so on is force and BT has BT Infinity (Fibre To The Cabinet) enabled a lot more of its exchanges. So why upset people who may want to become Virgin Tivo customers down the road.


Because when/if that happens they will have 60m potential customers so why worry about a few hundred old TiVo owners?



> TCM really should join a bank or a utility company with his attitude towards stabbing loyal customers in the bank being the right thing to do.


I'm not saying they should do it. Just that they will, at some point.



> Unfortunately your facts are incorrect TCM and LRP is still available, albeit from a somewhat exclusive band of petrol retailers.
> 
> See http://fbhvc.co.uk/fuel-information/#f3


That is not a list of LRP filling stations. Point stands.


----------



## TCM2007

mikerr said:


> If they wanted to save money they could ditch the freephone 0800 number, as there's any number of UUNET POPs there to replace it, with little inconvenience to even an unhacked tivo user - as british ex-pats in spain etc already do:
> (just enter new phone number in dial prefix - http://www.tivocentral.co.uk/phone-finder.php)


You'd have to download a new version of the OS to do that. Possible, but unlikely. And I'm sure jobsworths like Pete would be up in arms about having to pay for the calls.


----------



## TCM2007

velocitysurfer1 said:


> There is no revenue for us 'lifers', but there is from those who pay monthly. Remember that it's TiVo who have given the monthly payers a indefinite freebie.
> 
> Whilst I don't know how many monthly payers there are in the UK, I'm sure the revenue from them outstrips the cost of providing the free phone number.


You must have missed that they stopped taking the £10 a month a while ago.

Assuming that a TiVo accountant has not gone mad, presumably the costs of running or updating the systems to get the money were costing more than the revenues.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> perhaps the £10 monthly payments will start again once all of Virgin's new Tivo billing systems are fully online.


Virgin don't have a TiVo billing system. They have a Virgin billing system. There's no new system.

There's never been the slightest indication in any statement from TiVo or Virgin that Virgin will in any way be responsible for anything to so with the legacy TiVo subscribers, whether it's EPG provision, customer support or billing.


----------



## hokkers999

dvdfever said:


> but if I'm desperate for HD then I'll download the programme and even when I did that with something recently, all HD channels think we're so retarded that we need a logo to tell us that we're watching a more detailed image.


That's because the average human eyeball at anything more than about 8 feet is incapable of telling the difference


----------



## TCM2007

It's actually so they can track the source of HD pirate copies of films, but I'm sure you knew that really.

8ft? Depends how big your TV is!


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> There's never been the slightest indication in any statement from TiVo or Virgin that Virgin will in any way be responsible for anything to so with the legacy TiVo subscribers, whether it's EPG provision, customer support or billing.


They could always start billing UK Series 1 customers from Aviso in US Dollars instead. Support could also be shunted across there and available only between certain opening hours compatible with those of the US call centre.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> That is not a list of LRP filling stations. Point stands.


My apologies. Its a list of petrol stations still selling proper leaded fuel. Something that is likely to even better please any of those who were forced to switch from leaded to lead replacement petrol.

Also lead replacement additives are readily available at Halfords and elsewhere so there is no need to give up driving cars not directly designed for lead replacement petrol.


----------



## BrianHughes

Pete77 said:


> Actually, that would suit us very well, support would be available from the late afternoon to midnight for standard West Coast office hours.


----------



## Pete77

BrianHughes said:


> Actually, that would suit us very well, support would be available from the late afternoon to midnight for standard West Coast office hours.


I was already aware of that from when I made a similar suggestion back in about 2003 and checked the Aviso opening hours.

But yes they would be open during the exactly the hours when most people are using their Tivos in the UK.

I would have thought that if Tivo brought in an 0844 number to contact them on the phone (enough profit at 2p to 3p per minute revenue share to pay for forwarding the call to the USA) and reintroduced monthly charges for subs at 9.99 USD per month that the whole thing ought to pay for itself for a little while longer. Nothing need change on the daily calls since the 0800 Point of Presence in the UK already connects to the Tivo servers in Aviso.


----------



## TCM2007

Indeed they could. Maybe they will. Maybe they'll decide it's not forth the effort for a few hundred £10 a months.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Maybe they'll decide it's not forth the effort for a few hundred £10 a months.


I think you are wrong because I think it is still an article of faith at Tivo not to welsh or renege on any of the Lifetime subs for fear of damage to their corporate brand.

Had they been taken over by some bunch of scammers like Sky interested only in profit and who don't give a damn for what customers think of their brand or business methods (they have no need due to their stranglehold over sporting rights) then of course the Lifetime subs would have been reneged on.


----------



## PhilG

TCM2007 said:


> There's never been the slightest indication in any statement from TiVo or Virgin that Virgin will in any way be responsible for anything to so with the legacy TiVo subscribers, whether it's EPG provision, customer support or billing.


Or even any statement that they WON'T


----------



## dswallow

TCM2007 said:


> There's never been the slightest indication in any statement from TiVo or Virgin that Virgin will in any way be responsible for anything to so with the legacy TiVo subscribers, whether it's EPG provision, customer support or billing.


You are never mistaken for a glass-half-full person, are you?  Give it a try sometime. You'll really feel a lot better. About everything.


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> I think you are wrong because I think it is still an article of faith at Tivo not to welsh or renege...


Whilst I'm sure you meant to offence to the people of Wales, the word is 'welch'.


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> Whilst I'm sure you meant to offence to the people of Wales, the word is 'welch'.


Damn I thought my spelling was quite good but welch is a word I almost never use. Odd really when I'm involved in a legal dispute with my residents management company who have tried to welch on the original deal over the way the service charge percentages are apportioned here.


----------



## warrenrb

Nothing like making a typo in a post correcting someone's typo... 

"meant to offence" ?


----------



## Pete77

warrenrb said:


> Nothing like making a typo in a post correcting someone's typo...
> 
> "meant to offence" ?


I'm not so convinced its a typo on Carl's part given the usual points scoring on the forum that often seems to go on between us.

But for the record one of my best friends from University I am still in touch with has 100% Welsh parentage as well as herself having the two very Welsh first names Delia and Meryl. She does however now live in West London.


----------



## cwaring

warrenrb said:


> Nothing like making a typo in a post correcting someone's typo...
> 
> "meant to offence" ?





Pete77 said:


> I'm not so convinced its a typo on Carl's part given the usual points scoring on the forum that often seems to go on between us.


Not a typo as such, but simply a mistake. I originally wrote "meant to offend", then changed it but obviously forgot that bit.


----------



## TCM2007

Sorry chaps, but it is "welsh" (with "welch" as an alternate spelling; but not for PC reasons, it's also an alternate old spelling for the Welch people!), and it IS a racist slur, referring to the Welsh's supposed habit of not playing up on a bet. 

Pete, I agree it's the fear of damaging future sales for fear of "I'm not buying a TiVo in case that stop supporting this hardware" which has kept the service going. But having kept it going for 8 or more years after the thing stopped being sold, I'd say that point has been proved - indeed you could argue that any publicity would just emphasise how good they've been and even gone the extra mile by making it free!

The lifetime thing is a red herring. "Lifetime" never meant that the service would be kept going forever, it meant that as long as it was going you'd get it for free, as opposed to the other option where you paid for it monthly. Read your small print - they can alter or stop the service at any time. They'd only be in the wrong if they continued it for monthly layers and tried to get life timers to start paying again.


----------



## TCM2007

PhilG said:


> Or even any statement that they WON'T


They haven't said they won't come and clean out my gutters, but I'm not going to wait in for them.

It's not been mentioned in the context of Virgin because VIRGIN HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. So of course it's not been mentioned.

People on here have been assuming that there will now be some kind of connection between S1 TiVos and Virgin, and there's not the tiniest bit of evidence to suggest that. It's just wishful thinking.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> My apologies. Its a list of petrol stations still selling proper leaded fuel. Something that is likely to even better please any of those who were forced to switch from leaded to lead replacement petrol.
> 
> Also lead replacement additives are readily available at Halfords and elsewhere so there is no need to give up driving cars not directly designed for lead replacement petrol.


Indeed and to stretch your analogy until it creaks, I'm sure some keen Halford person here would come up with an additive to keep UK TiVos working, if and when it comes to it.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Indeed and to stretch your analogy until it creaks, I'm sure some keen Halford person here would come up with an additive to keep UK TiVos working, if and when it comes to it.


I thought the additive to keep our Tivos going in the event of the withdrawal of official UK Tivo service would actually come from other more technically minded members of the UK Tivo community.

Only trouble with that is that most of those most technically minded individuals have moved on elsewhere in terms of their tv viewing so that a home rolled data guide is much less likely to happen now if official Tivo guide data ceased than it was back in 2003 or so.

On the whole it seems to me that UK S1 Tivos are going to continue to receive data direct from Aviso under the contract with Tribune and that UK Tivo S1 service is likely to continue for some time to come. Also I personally would have thought that a typical interpretation of Lifetime in an electronic goods context might be more like 10 years (anything after that could be seen as an unexpected bonus) so that ought to give us at least a couple more years given when the final Tivos were sold in the shops.

I'm only hoping my two Samsung HA250JCs 250Gb drives installed in June 2005 last that long as it would be a real bore to have to remember how to configure a new drive at this stage. Having said that having already run for five and a half years and having been power cycled once per day for at least four years of that they have already vastly exceeded the expectations of the doom saying members of this forum.

Lastly I don't know why I stupidly accepted Carl's claim that I had spelt Welsh incorrectly. I just assumed that if he was going to make such a claim that he would have checked his sources before doing so. Clearly I should have known better.


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> Lastly I don't know why I stupidly accepted Carl's claim that I had spelt Welsh incorrectly. I just assumed that if he was going to make such a claim that he would have *checked his sources* before doing so. Clearly I should have known better.


What makes you think I didn't?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...&ei=RTkoTdf3GI2JhQefqsCHAg&sqi=2&ved=0CBYQkAE

Oh look! Carl Waring does, actually, sometimes know what he's talking about 

Of course, now that I check it, I can see that TCM is, as expected, also correct.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define:welsh&meta=

I do not _knowingly_ give out false information, you know. Why the heck would I?


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> Oh look! Carl Waring does, actually, sometimes know what he's talking about


Occasionally he does but usually only in connection with the world of Virgin cable and using Tivos with Virgin cable.

Unfortunately I live in the rural boglands of southern Surrey where viewing by satellite is my only way to use my Tivo.


----------



## cwaring

You mean I wasn't right about this too?  So no apology then? No surprise, I guess.


----------



## Pete77

I don't recall reading your apology for suggesting "Not a typo as such, but simply a mistake" when clearly my spelling of welsh (as in renege and not as in the land of mines of coal mines and Snowdonia) was actually a valid alternative spelling.


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> I don't recall reading your apology for suggesting "Not a typo as such, but simply a mistake" when clearly my spelling of welsh (as in renege and not as in the land of mines of coal mines and Snowdonia) was actually a valid alternative spelling.


As I was refering to _my_ previous post and not you or yours, why would an apology be necessary in that instance?


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> I personally would have thought that a typical interpretation of Lifetime in an electronic goods context might be more like 10 years


Is that popping sound the noise a number being plucked out of the air makes? 

The biggest problem is that TiVo is losing money, the rate at which it's losing money appears to be increasing (Adjusted EBITDA loss of $29m in last 12 months), and its losing subscribers in the US at the frankly astonishing rate of ~500,000 a year. They also put out a profits warning saying that the Christmas period was looking much.much worse then analysts were expecting after they cut the price of a TiVo from $299 to $99.

In that environment, its accountants might not want to play nice.

Having said that the losses are so large, the UK stuff is not really material, so may go under the radar.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Having said that the losses are so large, the UK stuff is not really material, so may go under the radar.


Just the very point I was about to make until you did it so neatly yourself in your final paragraph.

So the big threat to the UK Tivo S1 service is actually if and when Tivo Inc falls in to the hands of another commercial party as despite its poor profit situation I cannot believe that there would not be a buyer for it either directly or out of the hands of any liquidators that it might fall in to.


----------



## okonski_uk

Now that we can forget about Virgin's original promise to have Tivo with us 'in 2010' - the delay of this launch to this year (and some unspecified date in the near future), one fly in the ointment is still with potential upgraders. and should certainly form the basis of their plans to roll out service to existing S1 and V+ users.

Signing up for V+ brings with it a minimum term commitment of 12 months. For those who gave up waiting in 2010 (the year when VM originally promised to make it available) and signed up for the V+, will VM attempt to impose a cancellation charge? (Invariaby, the amount of rental due for the box until the minimum period is met) - we might think that as the TiVo is an upgraded V+, they would be more than happy to agree - but following previous custom and practice, they do not usually waive minimum terms for such a fickle reason.

It might be useful to VM to look at this, as it may catch intending upgraders with a very nasty surprise.


----------



## Tony Hoyle

You can upgrade within your 12 months quite easily - you just agree to extend the contract so it's 12 months again. 

I've made a few changes to my package since joining (including cancelling 50mb broadband 2 months after joining) and never had a charge - at least after a short discussion with retentions (the front line support people are a bit useless).


----------



## cwaring

okonski_uk said:


> Now that we can forget about Virgin's original promise to have Tivo with us 'in 2010'....





> For those who gave up waiting in 2010 (the year when VM originally promised to make it available)...


Sorry but they are right on schedule. Nowhere did they say it would *fully launch to all customers* in 2010.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Just the very point I was about to make until you did it so neatly yourself in your final paragraph.
> 
> So the big threat to the UK Tivo S1 service is actually if and when Tivo Inc falls in to the hands of another commercial party as despite its poor profit situation I cannot believe that there would not be a buyer for it either directly or out of the hands of any liquidators that it might fall in to.


I keep expecting Apple to buy it. Nice UI is Apple's thing, and they have a hole in their portfolio as there's no recording capability in AppleTV or a Media Center equivalent on Mac.


----------



## TCM2007

Live now according to TiVo US:

http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1513629



> Cindy Rose, executive director of digital entertainment at Virgin Media, said, "After laying all the necessary groundwork to bring the exciting TiVo experience to our customers in record time, we are thrilled to have begun rolling out our next-generation entertainment platform. TiVo has implemented a complex solution, which stitches together the full breadth of Virgin Media's content assets and created a television user interface which is second to none. We are the only UK company to provide a true entertainment discovery experience and offer the ultimate digital lifestyle for our customers."


----------



## okonski_uk

cwaring said:


> Sorry but they are right on schedule. Nowhere did they say it would *fully launch to all customers* in 2010.


Dear me - are you STILL trying to defend the indefensible?

For a start, taking your quote as an example - neither did they say their CS staff wouldn't know about it, that it would not be available to order during 2010. No paying customer has it - as far as I am aware.

What they actually said was; "Virgin Media currently anticipates its first TiVo co-branded product in 2010 ."

Lets cut through the BS shal we? This was a Press Statement issued in 2009. If they had said, we anticipate a full launch to our customer base in Q2 on 2011 - which it appears to be, they'd have been laughted off the planet - by effectively pre-announcing and then under delivering. Now, if they waited a year and made the announcement in November 2010, for a Q2 Launch in 2011, nobody would bat an eyelid - but the biggest laugh I've had since Xmas is that you tell us "they're right on schedule".... and you expect forum members to believe you?

Pull the other one!

By all means, try and convince someone that hasn't seen this type of pre-announcing before, but for me - it usually is 6-9 months before the physical service arrives, but this time, they missed it by a year.

Impressive, as I'm sure you'll agree.


----------



## cwaring

okonski_uk said:


> Dear me - are you STILL trying to defend the indefensible?


Well the facts and proof are on my side, but okay.


okonski_uk said:


> ...neither did they say their CS staff wouldn't know about it...


CS staff have *always* been the last to know about _any_ new product or service.


> What they actually said was; "Virgin Media currently anticipates its first TiVo co-branded product in 2010 ."


And they have it; 500 staff. Nothing was ever mentioned about a *public* release by the end of 2010; unless you can prove otheriwse.


> Lets cut through the BS shal we?


Well, again, they're actual *facts*, but okay.


okonski_uk said:


> ....but the biggest laugh I've had since Xmas is that you tell us "they're right on schedule".... and you expect forum members to believe you?


I suppose it if they depends if they can read, understand and correctly interpret English, and they're a pretty intelligent bunch, so I think I'll be okay.


okonski_uk said:


> ... this time, they missed it by a year.


You sure?

Nov 2009


> Virgin Media currently anticipates its first TiVo co-branded product in 2010.


Dec 2010


> Virgin Media TV powered by TiVo will begin to roll-out from mid-December.


So, as I said, right on time.


----------



## frobozz

okonski_uk said:


> Dear me - are you STILL trying to defend the indefensible?
> 
> <Snip>
> 
> Pull the other one!
> 
> By all means, try and convince someone that hasn't seen this type of pre-announcing before, but for me - it usually is 6-9 months before the physical service arrives, but this time, they missed it by a year.
> 
> Impressive, as I'm sure you'll agree.


Anyone who has had any dealings with tech companies, and I'm sure we all have, knows there is always slippage on delivery dates. However, I have to agree with Carl that VM appear to be delivering what they promised when they promised it.

A soft launch was announced for 2010 and it happened. The problem was that the term was never defined. Many people, including myself, (unrealistically) hoped for an unadvertised public launch that we would find out about from blogs / this forum or wherever, but a soft launch turned out to be an internal launch. It's their term and therefore their definition applies, why be surprised?

Yes, I want it yesterday too, but it does appear that they ARE on schedule.


----------



## TCM2007

The VM TiVo HAS suffered delays, look at Virgin's statements earlier this year to the rade pres.



> Berkett told an investor call that Virgin was on track to *launch the TiVo service this autumn*, though indicated that a major push would not begin until the New Year. "The V HD box that we have just launched is capable if we decide to take a download of the TiVo software," said Berkett. "We will launch a new next generation V+ box DVR in the fourth quarter so you will have a few hundred thousand standard boxes in the market that could be capable of taking the TiVo software if we thought this was appropriate".
> 
> Berkett compared the positioning of the TiVo middleware to the 'Intel Inside' concept. Although the boxes themselves would be branded Virgin, he said the user interface was analogous to an "inside branding" for TiVo.
> 
> The TiVo middleware that will offer Virgin customers a seamless experience between linear television and the web is a UK exclusive for the cablenet. Until such a time that TiVo is ready for deployment, the operator will continue to use the Liberate/TV Navigator middleware.
> 
> "We're on track to have *live boxes in the market by Christmas*, to see a significant push into 2011 and we would look to see how in fact we embed that as part of our overall customer improvement and product set improvement that we would then look to monetise in some shape or form," said Berkett.


Note: "autumn" not December
Note: "market", not internal testing.



> "We will be launching TiVo at the end of the year and we will have TiVo inside our set-top boxes across all of our customers," Berkett told the Cable Congress on Thursday afternoon. He has previously stated *November as to when the first TiVo-enabled boxes will be made available to customers.*


Note: "customers".


----------



## Pete77

Looking at the alternative which is to pursue TomTom's recent policy of rolling out on time numerous new models with firmware strewn with very serious bugs that the company largely never fixes because its focus then moves to the next new piece of hardware I personally think that Virgin's policy of waiting and not launching a product like this before all the serious bugs have been eliminated is a much more sensible approach.

Of course it helps that Virgin's customers are still going to be paying it their monthly rental anyway whereas TomTom will argue that if they don't rush out a new whizz bang model with 10 new features that don't work properly they may lose those sales forever.


----------



## mikerr

I'd prefer a well debugged product on first release
in preference to a one rushed to meet an on-schedule launch...


----------



## Pete77

mikerr said:


> I'd prefer a well debugged product on first release
> in preference to a one rushed to meet an on-schedule launch...


And given Tivo's fundamental marketing proposition that it just works and is very, very reliable despite being extremely feature rich I don't think Virgin can afford a bug strewn launch if the whole point of the exercise is for word to get around that Virgin's new PVR is far easier to use than, is far more reliable than and has far more features than Sky+HD


----------



## okonski_uk

The issue is not one of receiving a satisfactory product that is fully ready for public consumption, but of when we are advised - by a PUBLIC statement - when we may reasonably expect it. Mr C's rose-tints aside - forgets this.

http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1359178&highlight=

Issued in November 2009 and setting the timeframe for the following year. We're in 2011 and the Virgin website is stating for all to see that it will be available THIS year. So they missed it, big time. The fact that there are deniers of this is to be expected, as some folk cannot bear for their hopes to be dashed by corporate incompetence. It most certainly isn't 'on time' and we're not being told why - their loss.

There may havebeen later statements pushing back the promise - but so what, none of this detracts from the Novermber 2009 statement that confirms a 2010 launch. No consumers have it even now - so lets stop trying to save a game that is lost. Realise it, and move on.


----------



## TCM2007

They've also said a number of times that the latest Cisco built V+ box can be upgraded over the air to the TiVo based software. I believe that this has been out for a little while, so they could have thousands on the TiVo solution tomorrow if they wanted.

Anyhow, the last press release on the 6th said it was available NOW. Not much room for slipping with that one!


----------



## Pete77

okonski_uk said:


> It most certainly isn't 'on time' and we're not being told why - their loss.


I would suggest it is because they are trying to get it right rather than launch a product that receives disappointing reviews.

If you will recall Microsoft postponed the replacement of Windows XP with another operating system for many years compared to original statements but I believe that they are still in business.

I think the delay of a product launch is far less to be criticised than a company launching a product that simply doesn't do what it says on the tin but the company never facing up to that issue or addressing it (which TomTom have become past masters of over the last two years).


----------



## cwaring

TCM2007 said:


> The VM TiVo HAS suffered delays, look at Virgin's statements earlier this year to the rade pres.
> ...
> Note: "autumn" not December
> Note: "market", not internal testing.
> ...
> Note: "customers".


A fair point. I was only going by their offical Press Releases. I didn't really follow it that closely in the wider press. However, when all is said and done, a month's delay is nothing, really.



okonski_uk said:


> We're in 2011...


To be fair we are *just over a week into* 2011. Talk about nit-picking to make your anti-VM point 



okonski_uk said:


> There may have been later statements pushing back the promise - but so what...


So you're happy to quote their _original_ PR but don't care if the date may have been pushed back on a subsequent PR? No hypocrisy or one-sided-ness there then?  As it happens there wasn't one and they're still - give or take a couple of weeks - pretty-much bang on-schedule.

I'm not sure what the diametric opposite of "rose-tinted spectacles" is, but whatever it is would seem to sum you up perfectly


----------



## OzSat

Working in the press for a long time - press release are often full of expected, but later incorrect, statements.

If press releases were made legally binding - it would see the end of them.


When ITV Player launched on VM it said it would carry HD programming. Two years later now and still waiting. The problem is thast VM have no control over the ITV output.

Often your plans hit problems due to other or outside agents.



btw: got an email from Sky implying that CSI is in HD on Five next week - but it isn't. But what can I do about it? Nothing except not watch it!


----------



## TCM2007

Ozsat, you are in direct touch with TiVo and/or the EPG suppliers. Any thing you've picked up about future plans you can share?


----------



## TCM2007

cwaring said:


> I'm not sure what the diametric opposite of "rose-tinted spectacles" is, but whatever it is would seem to sum you up perfectly


Carl, you're being massively overprotective of VM for some reason. It's clear that there schedule HAS slipped. It's also clear that doesn't really matter very much, but you don't seem ready to accept anything vaguely critical of them.

I guess the newly converted are the most zealous...


----------



## OzSat

TCM2007 said:


> Ozsat, you are in direct touch with TiVo and/or the EPG suppliers. Any thing you've picked up about future plans you can share?


The only things I have been told are all in the press releases.

I too would like S1 to continue with EPG - and would be willing to switch to a (low cost) pay number for dialup to continue to get the listings.


----------



## louis wu

okonski_uk said:


> The issue is not one of receiving a satisfactory product that is fully ready for public consumption, but of when we are advised - by a PUBLIC statement - when we may reasonably expect it. Mr C's rose-tints aside - forgets this.
> 
> http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1359178&highlight=
> 
> Issued in November 2009 and setting the timeframe for the following year. We're in 2011 and the Virgin website is stating for all to see that it will be available THIS year. So they missed it, big time. The fact that there are deniers of this is to be expected, as some folk cannot bear for their hopes to be dashed by corporate incompetence. It most certainly isn't 'on time' and we're not being told why - their loss.
> 
> There may havebeen later statements pushing back the promise - but so what, none of this detracts from the Novermber 2009 statement that confirms a 2010 launch. No consumers have it even now - so lets stop trying to save a game that is lost. Realise it, and move on.


If memory serves me correctly they always said end of 2010 so they are not much off schedule. The issue I have is they are not giving us any info. We don't even no for sure what the price will be let alone when we might take possesion of one.


TCM2007 said:


> They've also said a number of times that the latest Cisco built V+ box can be upgraded over the air to the TiVo based software. I believe that this has been out for a little while, so they could have thousands on the TiVo solution tomorrow if they wanted.
> 
> Anyhow, the last press release on the 6th said it was available NOW. Not much room for slipping with that one!


The Cisco V HD box can apparently be upgraded to tivo software but as it cant record that wouldn't be high on anybodies priorities. Neither of the V+ boxes can be upgraded to tivo. Or if they can VM have never stated an intention to do so.


----------



## cwaring

TCM2007 said:


> Carl, you're being massively overprotective of VM for some reason.


Because they're actually right on this occasion. Plus I'm not the only one.



frobozz said:


> ....I have to agree with Carl that VM appear to be delivering what they promised when they promised it.





louis wu said:


> If memory serves me correctly they always said end of 2010 so they are not much off schedule.





TCM2007 said:


> It's clear that there schedule HAS slipped. It's also clear that doesn't really matter very much, but you don't seem ready to accept anything vaguely critical of them.


I'll happily accept any _valid_ criticism.

However, this....


okonski_uk said:


> ...but this time, they missed it by a year.


.... (as well as the rest of this member's post) is completely _in_valid.



> I guess the newly converted are the most zealous...


Moi?


----------



## Tony Hoyle

There does appear to be some slippage (they looked to be starting a *major* advertising blitz which suddenly dried up) but it's not much in the general scheme of things - we've been waiting 10 years! What's a month or two?


----------



## hokkers999

mikerr said:


> I'd prefer a well debugged product on first release
> in preference to a one rushed to meet an on-schedule launch...


As it's supposedly a re badged Tivo Premiere which has been out for what 2 years now, what bugs can be left apart from all the ones that VM have introduced


----------



## louis wu

hokkers999 said:


> As it's supposedly a re badged Tivo Premiere which has been out for what 2 years now, what bugs can be left apart from all the ones that VM have introduced


I think we are all getting a bit impatient now. Still it's great news that VM have made this investment. Given your posts on cableforums a couple of years ago constantly urging VM to adopt tivo I'm sure you are overjoyed. Perhaps you can even claim some credit.


----------



## cwaring

louis wu said:


> Perhaps you can even claim some credit.


Erm... me too! Remember the poll I did?


----------



## louis wu

hokkers999 said:


> As it's supposedly a re badged Tivo Premiere which has been out for what 2 years now, what bugs can be left apart from all the ones that VM have introduced





cwaring said:


> Erm... me too! Remember the poll I did?


I don't Carl . Sorry. Which forum was that on. If it was this one them I'm new so I've got an excuse.
I know you have liked Tivo long before VM adopted it though so credit to you also.


----------



## mrwhizzard

Not that I want to stir the argument any more, but those 500 staff mentioned weren't testers, but in fact had to a) pay for the services and b) have to pay a monthly fee, so they are paying customers like anyone else - just obviously work for VM.


----------



## cwaring

louis wu said:


> I don't Carl . Sorry. Which forum was that on. If it was this one them I'm new so I've got an excuse.


No, it wasn't on here. BTW, just noticed your 'joined' date too 



> I know you have liked Tivo long before VM adopted it though so credit to you also.


I was being a little sarcastic as no-one really knows whether either of us have been any influence at all; and I always err on the side of caution


----------



## dswallow

hokkers999 said:


> As it's supposedly a re badged Tivo Premiere which has been out for what 2 years now, what bugs can be left apart from all the ones that VM have introduced


The Virgin TiVo receiver is Cisco hardware. Nothing to do with the Premiere hardware at all. Though maybe you're just making a sarcastic response to something.


----------



## TCM2007

louis wu said:


> The Cisco V HD box can apparently be upgraded to tivo software but as it cant record that wouldn't be high on anybodies priorities. Neither of the V+ boxes can be upgraded to tivo. Or if they can VM have never stated an intention to do so.


According to this:



> Some existing Cisco-manufactured DVRs, the Virgin V+ receiver, are capable of a software download that would upgrade them to TiVo capability. However, this would not be possible with the Samsung DVRs also in the market.


http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2010/11/03/1-terabyte-of-storage-in-virgin-tivo-box/


----------



## TCM2007

hokkers999 said:


> As it's supposedly a re badged Tivo Premiere which has been out for what 2 years now, what bugs can be left apart from all the ones that VM have introduced


Others have said it's not a re-badged Premier; also the new UK software adds new functionality I believe.


----------



## mrwhizzard

TCM2007 said:


> Others have said it's not a re-badged Premier; also the new UK software adds new functionality I believe.


No, its a Cisco piece of hardware with TiVo software. With the cable company deals TiVo are doing as of late, they are only providing their software - each service provider is using their own equipment rather than using TiVo's own.


----------



## louis wu

mrwhizzard said:


> Not that I want to stir the argument any more, but those 500 staff mentioned weren't testers, but in fact had to a) pay for the services and b) have to pay a monthly fee, so they are paying customers like anyone else - just obviously work for VM.


I think those of us who aren't staff just want to know some more info now about when it will be available and at what price. Or any information at all really. I appreciate that it might be commercially sensitive info but at least tell us something. I think it is about six weeks now since VM released any information on tivo. Perhaps they could release the staff who have the box from confidentiality agreements so they could at least tell us what the box is like.


----------



## mrwhizzard

louis wu said:


> I think those of us who aren't staff just want to know some more info now about when it will be available and at what price. Or any information at all really. I appreciate that it might be commercially sensitive info but at least tell us something. I think it is about six weeks now since VM released any information on tivo. Perhaps they could release the staff who have the box from confidentiality agreements so they could at least tell us what the box is like.


Pricing has been announced, just not for bundle packages such as VIP/XL+ etc etc. Just in case you missed it:

New Customers: £199 with £40 install fee, then £3 a month TiVo charge.
Existing Customers: £149 with £40 install fee, then £3 a month TiVo charge.

No other pricing has yet been announced, though it has been stated that existing customers and those pre-registering on the TiVo mini-site at virginmedia.com will be the first in line for installs outside of any internal or staff rollout.


----------



## louis wu

mrwhizzard said:


> Pricing has been announced, just not for bundle packages such as VIP/XL+ etc etc. Just in case you missed it:
> 
> New Customers: £199 with £40 install fee, then £3 a month TiVo charge.
> Existing Customers: £149 with £40 install fee, then £3 a month TiVo charge.
> 
> No other pricing has yet been announced, though it has been stated that existing customers and those pre-registering on the TiVo mini-site at virginmedia.com will be the first in line for installs outside of any internal or staff rollout.


OK cheers. Still getting a bit impatient but I will just have to wait.


----------



## The Wishlist

mrwhizzard said:


> Pricing has been announced, just not for bundle packages such as VIP/XL+ etc etc. Just in case you missed it:
> 
> New Customers: £199 with £40 install fee, then £3 a month TiVo charge.
> *Existing Customers: £149* with £40 install fee, then £3 a month TiVo charge.


Where is this on the VM site?

I've read those prices (for existing customers) on several sites.....but not the VM site.


----------



## Tony Hoyle

The Wishlist said:


> Where is this on the VM site?
> 
> I've read those prices (for existing customers) on several sites.....but not the VM site.


The only official price announcement has been in this press release: http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1501859&highlight=



> Virgin Media TV powered by TiVo will begin to roll-out from mid-December. Standard price of £199**, plus £26.50 per month*** for the XL TiVo package
> 
> ** Standard £40 installation costs apply.
> *** When taken with a Virgin phone line. Monthly cost is £32.50 when taken without a phone line.


All other prices are merely speculation at this stage.

Edit: This exact information is in the first post of the sticky thread.. oops... http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=460758


----------



## Milhouse

The Wishlist said:


> Where is this on the VM site?
> 
> I've read those prices (for existing customers) on several sites.....but not the VM site.


There has been no official announcement regarding existing customers as far as I can tell. Someone did post on Digital Spy about being quoted £149 for an existing customer by the VM "twitter team" whoever they are, but I'd hardly consider that "official" (by which I mean announced on the VM site).


----------



## cwaring

Milhouse said:


> Someone did post on Digital Spy about being quoted £149 for an existing customer by the VM "twitter team" whoever they are, but I'd hardly consider that "official" (by which I mean announced on the VM site).


Actually, the Twitter team certainly are official and, from what I've heard, are doing a great job for VM. However yes, even though that pricing _allegedly_ came from them, I would still only believe it when officially announced.


----------



## hokkers999

mrwhizzard said:


> No, its a Cisco piece of hardware with TiVo software. With the cable company deals TiVo are doing as of late, they are only providing their software - each service provider is using their own equipment rather than using TiVo's own.


Ohhh, bugger 

Those original Tivo hardware guys did a fantastic job. Think this is a bit of a dumb move by Tivo - unless they plan to "certify" each device.

Now if there are problems (h/w sort), odds are the Tivo s/w gets the blame...


----------



## hokkers999

mrwhizzard said:


> Pricing has been announced, just not for bundle packages such as VIP/XL+ etc etc. Just in case you missed it:
> 
> New Customers: £199 with £40 install fee, then £3 a month TiVo charge.
> Existing Customers: £149 with £40 install fee, then £3 a month TiVo charge.
> 
> No other pricing has yet been announced, though it has been stated that existing customers and those pre-registering on the TiVo mini-site at virginmedia.com will be the first in line for installs outside of any internal or staff rollout.


Plus £23.50 a month for the COMPULSORY XL tv pack 

Before CW and his cronies flame me again see post #511


----------



## louis wu

hokkers999 said:


> Plus £23.50 a month for the COMPULSORY XL tv pack
> 
> Before CW and his cronies flame me again see post #511


I'm genuinely mystified now. When you pushed for Virgin Media to make a deal with Tivo on that other forum did you expect them to do it as an act of charity or with a business plan in mind and a view to making money out of it? 
As a Virgin Media customer I am happy to be given the choice of having a tivo box. I just wish they would give us some more info. If they leave it much longer to tell us when the roll out will start and what the prices will be people will start to loose interest. They should be doing something to keep the excitement going.


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> Plus £23.50 a month for the COMPULSORY XL tv pack


Until such time that VM announce any possible pricing for the lower packages, of course. Or put the Tivo software, sans recording function, onto _all_ their other STBs. Don't forget to include these points next time you mention this. Seeing as you like pointing it out 

As for roll-out; bad news. I hear it's going to be February. DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER!!


----------



## louis wu

cwaring said:


> Until such time that VM announce any possible pricing for the lower packages, of course. Or put the Tivo software, sans recording function, onto _all_ their other STBs. Don't forget to include these points next time you mention this. Seeing as you like pointing it out
> 
> As for roll-out; bad news. I hear it's going to be February. DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER!!


Where did you see that Carl? As I was expecting it to be February at the earliest I'm not disappointed. I just hope it doesn't slip much more.


----------



## cwaring

On the VM Sofa.


----------



## hokkers999

louis wu said:


> ... did you expect them to do it as an act of charity or with a business plan in mind and a view to making money out of it?
> ...


I know they are a business, the £189 up front or £239 for new customers is the money part isn't it? To put a compulsory £26.50 a month on top is just taking the proverbial.

Makes it a very expensive proposition

12 months ownership = £507 for existing customers

No thanks.

Just did a quick online search for £27.50 a month with Sky you can get

Sky TV
Movies Pack
20 meg internet
free evening & weekend calls

oh yes, NO UPFRONT COST.

As I've said here many times before, until VM come to their senses and stop trying to gouge people I'll stick to my 10 year old S1 box, that ALREADY has 1 TB of storage


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> Just did a quick online search for £27.50 a month with Sky you can get
> 
> Sky TV
> Movies Pack
> 20 meg internet
> free evening & weekend calls
> 
> oh yes, NO UPFRONT COST.


Load of rubbish.

I'm on Sky's site right now and here's what I get....










Sky Entertainment Pack + Movies + HD Box
Ongoing monthly cost £50.75

12 Months ownership: £609

And that's _before_ you start adding the cost of the phone line and (around here at least) the cost of the broadband which, because Sky haven't got their equipement in our local exchange, I couldn't get their "free" broadband even if I wanted it!

So where are you getting your prices from?

Of course, with Sky you don't get all the OnDemand content, including BBC, ITV, C4 and five CatchUp services either. And if, after 12 months your box goes kaput? Free fix or replacement. No haggling or threatening to leave! And Sky+ is nothing like Tivo for functionality.


----------



## TCM2007

hokkers999 said:


> I know they are a business, the £189 up front or £239 for new customers is the money part isn't it? To put a compulsory £26.50 a month on top is just taking the proverbial.
> 
> Makes it a very expensive proposition
> 
> 12 months ownership = £507 for existing customers
> 
> No thanks.
> 
> Just did a quick online search for £27.50 a month with Sky you can get
> 
> Sky TV
> Movies Pack
> 20 meg internet
> free evening & weekend calls
> 
> oh yes, NO UPFRONT COST.
> 
> As I've said here many times before, until VM come to their senses and stop trying to gouge people I'll stick to my 10 year old S1 box, that ALREADY has 1 TB of storage


When Sky+ launched, and then when Sky HD launched, there were many posts on Digital Spy and AV Forums saying exactly the same. They were huge successes. Only you know how much money you have, and whether the extra stuff you get with multi-channel HD recording are worth it to you. If not, fine. But don't be surprised if for many people it looks like a good idea


----------



## TCM2007

cwaring said:


> Of course, with Sky you don't get all the OnDemand content, including BBC, ITV, C4 and five CatchUp services either. And if, after 12 months your box goes kaput? Free fix or replacement. No haggling or threatening to leave! And Sky+ is nothing like Tivo for functionality.


To be fair, you do get a load more channels with Sky, particularly HD channels, and Sky's on demand (Anytime+) is about to launch.


----------



## Milhouse

TCM2007 said:


> and Sky's on demand (Anytime+) is about to launch.


Don't forget it's initially only for viewers with Sky Broadband, and unlike Virgin TiVo it will eat into your normal broadband usage (slowing down other web activities) and it should be fun if/when Sky roll it out to non-Sky Broadband customers with capped connections!


----------



## cwaring

TCM2007 said:


> To be fair, you do get a load more channels with Sky...


Yes, there are a few channels that Sky have that VM do not; but not a "load more". You're probably referring to channels that are FTA on *Satellite* and therefore cannot be compared to any PayTV service.


----------



## OzSat

cwaring said:


> Yes, there are a few channels that Sky have that VM do not; but not a "load more". You're probably referring to channels that are FTA on *Satellite* and therefore cannot be compared to any PayTV service.


Actually - it is quite a lot more - but excluding the exclusive SkyHD ones - then you can count the remaining good ones on the fingers of one hand.


----------



## TCM2007

cwaring said:


> Yes, there are a few channels that Sky have that VM do not; but not a "load more". You're probably referring to channels that are FTA on *Satellite* and therefore cannot be compared to any PayTV service.


No idea if they are FTA, but even if they were you get x channels with a Sky box and y channels with a Virgin box, the payment status doesn't really matter, it's still part of your decision making?


----------



## louis wu

hokkers999 said:


> I know they are a business, the £189 up front or £239 for new customers is the money part isn't it? To put a compulsory £26.50 a month on top is just taking the proverbial.
> 
> Makes it a very expensive proposition
> 
> 12 months ownership = £507 for existing customers
> 
> No thanks.
> 
> Just did a quick online search for £27.50 a month with Sky you can get
> 
> Sky TV
> Movies Pack
> 20 meg internet
> free evening & weekend calls
> 
> oh yes, NO UPFRONT COST.
> 
> As I've said here many times before, until VM come to their senses and stop trying to gouge people I'll stick to my 10 year old S1 box, that ALREADY has 1 TB of storage


The tivo is £3 extra per month (on top of the subscription I'm already paying). To say you can get all that you say with Sky for £27.50 is just BS. The tv pack alone is £24.50, with no HD except the free channels and no ESPN. Bear in mind as well that the Sky box with the same HD recording space as the new VM box is something like £239. 
Best if we all stick to facts isn't it?


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> Until such time that VM announce any possible pricing for the lower packages, of course. Or put the Tivo software, sans recording function, onto _all_ their other STBs. Don't forget to include these points next time you mention this. Seeing as you like pointing it out
> 
> As for roll-out; bad news. I hear it's going to be February. DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER!!


Until VM do announce more deals and I hope they do, then you are the one who's wildly speculating. I'm quoting the only known facts.

My case stands until such time as VM announce anything else.


----------



## louis wu

cwaring said:


> On the VM Sofa.


Just had a look at that site. I see there is some discussion there about dynamic epg but can't read it because I'm not a member. Will the VM tivo have a dynamic epg? Can anybody tell me if the USA version has one?


----------



## cwaring

The US one does not and therefore I suspect that neither ours.

@hokkers999 - No response to your flawed Sky pricing then?


----------



## hokkers999

louis wu said:


> The tivo is £3 extra per month (on top of the subscription I'm already paying). To say you can get all that you say with Sky for £27.50 is just BS. The tv pack alone is £24.50, with no HD except the free channels and no ESPN. Bear in mind as well that the Sky box with the same HD recording space as the new VM box is something like £239.
> Best if we all stick to facts isn't it?


Oh dear, is it facts then?

http://www.sky.com/shop/boxes/sky-plus-box/


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> The US one does not and therefore I suspect that neither ours.
> 
> @hokkers999 - No response to your flawed Sky pricing then?


see post #532


----------



## louis wu

hokkers999 said:


> Oh dear, is it facts then?
> 
> http://www.sky.com/shop/boxes/sky-plus-box/


What has it got to do with the VM package? It is a Sky + box so no HD channels and you wont be able to receive any on it if you change your mind. It isn't a complete tv package it is only one pack. The "broadband" has a 2Gb per month cap so not broadband as we know it. And the free calls don't include line rental. Compare like with like and the equivalent Sky package is £24.50 with no non free HD channels and no ESPN. Also contrary to what you said there is an upfront cost of £30.
Which ever way you try and spin it the tivo cost is £3 per month not the £26.50 you are quoting.


----------



## louis wu

cwaring said:


> The US one does not and therefore I suspect that neither ours.


That would be disappointing mainly because it would mean rival platforms still have an edge over tivo. If only in one small area.


----------



## hokkers999

louis wu said:


> What has it got to do with the VM package? It is a Sky + box so no HD channels and you wont be able to receive any on it if you change your mind. It isn't a complete tv package it is only one pack. The "broadband" has a 2Gb per month cap so not broadband as we know it. And the free calls don't include line rental. Compare like with like and the equivalent Sky package is £24.50 with no non free HD channels and no ESPN. Also contrary to what you said there is an upfront cost of £30.
> Which ever way you try and spin it the tivo cost is £3 per month not the £26.50 you are quoting.


and VM don't charge line rental do they? 

sorry to burst your bubble regarding hd as well, most people don't give a toss.

as to not a complete package, you're seriously trying to claim that vm have as many channels as sky? have you checked out the entry level vm offering which is roughly comparable to what I posted.

So yes, it is a £26.50 levy to get a Tivo, AS PER THE VM PRESS RELEASE.

If you think it isn't then please get vm to correct their pricing, I think they know better than you do what it costs.


----------



## TCM2007

As far as I can calculate comparing as near like to like as I can get, the full VM package is &#163;83 a month (presumably about to be &#163;86 with TiVo) while the full Sky is &#163;90.

Thats for HD, broadband, phone, movies, sport, ESPN and entertainment channels.

You do get more channels and 3D with Sky.

Not much in it really.

If you don't want one, hookers, don't buy one - noone's making you!


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> and VM don't charge line rental do they?


No. Not if you don't take their phone service they don't. However, that does increase the cost of the other services. Which is _really_ stupid and annoying, but is also not the point 



hokkers999 said:


> sorry to burst your bubble regarding hd as well, most people don't give a toss.


But it _is_ a factor. Any new VM customer will get a HD box whether they use HD or not. So, to compare like-with-like you have to use the SkyHD box.



hokkers999 said:


> as to not a complete package, you're seriously trying to claim that vm have as many channels as sky?


Actually, Sky has around the same number of basic pay channels. *Satellite* does have a lot of FTA channels but as these don't require a Sky sub they cannot be used in a like-for-like comparison.



hokkers999 said:


> .. have you checked out the entry level vm offering which is roughly comparable to what I posted.


There are six different Sky packages, any single one of which costs £19.50. No single pack can be compared to the basic VM M+ Pack as it would not be a fai comparison. Due to the way that Sky package their channels, the only possible, closest match on a like-for-like basis is the Sky Entertainment Pack v VM's XL TV pack.

You can twist the facts all you like but the fact is that you are simply wrong.



> So yes, it is a £26.50 levy to get a Tivo, AS PER THE VM PRESS RELEASE.


No. It's £3 if you want a Tivo extra on top of the standard charge for the XL TV pack. If you don't want a Tivo, but do want the XL pack, it's _still_ £23.50. So the 'premium' for the Tivo is only £3.

Incidentally, and just for the sake of it, I compared my currrent VM package against as close a package from Sky that I could get - both as a new customer - and the VM package (current V+ not Tivo) is around £20 per month cheaper


----------



## louis wu

hokkers999 said:


> So yes, it is a £26.50 levy to get a Tivo, AS PER THE VM PRESS RELEASE.
> 
> If you think it isn't then please get vm to correct their pricing, I think they know better than you do what it costs.


If you want to believe that there is a £26.50 levy to get tivo then carry on. Meanwhile back in the real world they will add £3 a month to my bill if I take tivo.
I'm trying hard to make sense of your posting and it seems that your quibble is that VM are not in the foreseeable future going to release a freeview box. Well it's hardly surprising is it? VM aren't in that business.


----------



## cwaring

The problem stems from the fact that, at the moment, you have to take the XL pack @ £23.50 to be able to have the Tivo. Of course, that price is only applicable if you also take a phone-line @ whatever that costs now; £12 or so, IIRC. Its a mystery why Hokkers999 hasn't worked _that_ fact into his spin 

Of course, comparing the most expensive VM package to the cheapest Sky package doesn' help either


----------



## mrwhizzard

Anyone who takes TiVo from launch will have to take the XL TV package, that is a mandatory requirement.


----------



## AMc

The highest value customers will get the first dibs on a new technology?
Early adopters will pay a premium for the opportunity?
What an extraordinary way to do business. 
There are no parallels at all with Sky's introduction of Sky+ or Sky+HD.

If I were running Virgin I would roll Tivo out to every single subscriber on the basic package at no extra charge to begin with and then mop up the few people prepared to pay £90 a month later.

[I think there may be some flaws in what I've just written]


----------



## Milhouse

TCM2007 said:


> As far as I can calculate comparing as near like to like as I can get, the full VM package is £83 a month (presumably about to be £86 with TiVo) while the full Sky is £90.
> 
> Thats for HD, broadband, phone, movies, sport, ESPN and entertainment channels.
> 
> You do get more channels and 3D with Sky.
> 
> Not much in it really.
> 
> If you don't want one, hookers, don't buy one - noone's making you!


Did you include mobile phone contracts in your comparison? Satellite customers would be paying full price for mobile service as Sky have no mobile phone offering, but VM customers can get good mobile phone deals with Virgin Mobile, lower prices (pay monthly from £8.68, SIM only £6.13/month), free phone calls - big savings for a family etc.... it's VM quad play vs. Sky triple-play.


----------



## warrenrb

Everyone stop feeding the troll.

Engineer came today to fix my telephone. I asked him if he'd had his TiVo training yet. He said not yet, but they "have the boxes". I think he said about 50 staff had them (not him, as he wasn't in a cable area).

I pointed out my original TiVo. He seemed impressed, and said "Cor, it's big, isn't it?"


----------



## PhilG

warrenrb said:


> I pointed out my original TiVo. He seemed impressed, and said "Cor, it's big, isn't it?"


Well, there's got to be room for all those marbles, chutes and that big magnet


----------



## Nero2

warrenrb said:


> I think he said about 50 staff had them (not him, as he wasn't in a cable area).


500 to be more precise.

Thanks


----------



## ColinYounger

warrenrb said:


> Everyone stop feeding the troll.


Indeed. Are you all looking at what you're actually quibbling ABOUT? VM packages Vs. Sky?

Trolls always pull your arguments to their argument.


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> The problem stems from the fact that, at the moment, you have to take the XL pack @ £23.50 to be able to have the Tivo.


Glad you finally agree with me. There is a compulsory £23.50 before you are even allowed to have a Tivo


----------



## warrenrb

Nero2 said:


> 500 to be more precise.
> 
> Thanks


I think he was talking about within his division/region/office (Northern Ireland), not VM as a whole.


----------



## Furball

As others, I cant beleive all the squabbling, surely we should be singing from the roofs that TiVo once again is back on the UK shores in new technology 

Furball


----------



## TCM2007

Would be, if I could buy it.


----------



## mhopley

I have 2 Tivos both connected to freeview boxes. I couldn't wait to get a Virgin Tivo, but the costs are prohibitive. I'm happy with the channels I get on freeview, I just want a new Tivo.
I wouldn't mind paying for the box if I was buying it but &#163;199 just for the privilege of renting it seems too much. 

&#163;32.50 /month for XL (no phone & tivo charge) is not worth it for me when I am not really interested in the extra channels.

To add 20mb broadband is another &#163;29 (I currently pay &#163;12 for 20mb with Be)

So much as I would love a new Tivo, I just can't justify the charges 

I just hope I can continue to get guide data for my existing Tivos.


----------



## cwaring

mhopley said:


> I wouldn't mind paying for the box if I was buying it but £199 just for the privilege of renting it seems too much.


I agree it's a lot, but I ihink of it as an unlimited, lifetime (of your subscription!) warranty'


----------



## louis wu

mhopley said:


> I have 2 Tivos both connected to freeview boxes. I couldn't wait to get a Virgin Tivo, but the costs are prohibitive. I'm happy with the channels I get on freeview, I just want a new Tivo.
> I wouldn't mind paying for the box if I was buying it but £199 just for the privilege of renting it seems too much.
> 
> £32.50 /month for XL (no phone & tivo charge) is not worth it for me when I am not really interested in the extra channels.
> 
> To add 20mb broadband is another £29 (I currently pay £12 for 20mb with Be)
> 
> So much as I would love a new Tivo, I just can't justify the charges
> 
> I just hope I can continue to get guide data for my existing Tivos.


Cheaper boxes will arrive in time. If you don't want to subscribe to cable that is a much bigger problem though. Mainly the tivo is an upgrade for those who have already got cable or who at least would consider getting it. Like you I hope they continue to update your existing boxes especially as you don't want the new box.


----------



## browellm

Nice review of the iPad app for Premiere here http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/18/tivo-premiere-app-for-ipad-review/

The Virgin version won't be a million miles away from this.


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> I agree it's a lot, but I ihink of it as an unlimited, lifetime (of your subscription!) warranty'


@CW no reply to post #548 where you shot yourself in both feet with a machine gun


----------



## cwaring

How much was it for a *comparable* Sky package again?


----------



## sjp

but will this new box have a free space indicator?

sorry, couldn't resist


----------



## TiVoJerry

sjp said:


> but will this new box have a free space indicator?


I'm not letting out any secret info by saying "Yes".










It's displayed as part of item #7 in an article on VM's site titled "10 cool things TiVo can do for you"


----------



## cwaring

Okay. I've seen that pic dozens of times, so how did I forget about that indicator being there?


----------



## dswallow

cwaring said:


> Okay. I've seen that pic dozens of times, so how did I forget about that indicator being there?


Because you know (or rather, your subconscious knows) that in the scheme of all things TiVo, a free space indicator is meaningless. And TiVo instead is wasting screen real estate to give you more useless things and hasn't really added more of anything of what you really want and need to see in its function as a DVR.

In that picture alone, just look at all that wasted blank space there in the middle. How nice of them to give us more room for longer titles. It's obvious we need that.


----------



## cwaring

dswallow said:


> Because you know (or rather, your subconscious knows)....


Please do not try and tell me what I "know", thank you.



> ...that in the scheme of all things TiVo, a free space indicator is meaningless.


So why is it "how can I tell how much space I have left on my [original] Tivo?" was always one of the most popular questions on the UK Forum, leading to someone writiing a hack to actually put one on the main screen?



> ... and hasn't really added more of anything of what you really want and need to see in its function as a DVR.


Such as?



> In that picture alone, just look at all that wasted blank space there in the middle. How nice of them to give us more room for longer titles. It's obvious we need that.


Well I for one like to know what I've recorded. Someone also wrote _another_ popular hack to put the episode titles in the "Now Playing" list so yes, that "wasted blank space" would have really been useful on the _original_ units. Unfortunately, they were only ever in 4:3.



>


Okay. Now I can't tell whether you were being serious or not  Did I just waste five minutes of my life typing an un-necessary reply? 

Oh, and I also now see you're in the US too. So it _was_ a wasted reply


----------



## Pete77

sjp said:


> but will this new box have a free space indicator?
> 
> sorry, couldn't resist


My S1 UK Tivo has a perfectly good space indicator hack called autospace that provides considerably more information than the Virgin Tivo effort does over 10 years later.

It shows the total percentage of space and number of recordings taken up on the drive(s) by scheduled recordings, the percentage of space and number of recordings taken up by Suggestions and finally the percentage of space that is free.

I wonder why it took Tivo over 10 years to manage to provider under half that amount of information in an officially supported solution.

By the way I'm concerned about the total lack of Tivo branding in any of the official screens we have seen for the Virgin Media product. I think the will prove to be a great mistake in the long run. Even on my HP provided notebook PC I cannot help being regularly reminded that the operating system is provided by a different company.


----------



## Zaichik

browellm said:


> Nice review of the iPad app for Premiere here http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/18/tivo-premiere-app-for-ipad-review/
> 
> The Virgin version won't be a million miles away from this.


Anyone know if a version for Android is in the offing?


----------



## jonphil

Zaichik said:


> Anyone know if a version for Android is in the offing?


I hope for a Android version too, or at least a version of the app that will work on a ipod, the remote function and finding programs / record setting doesn't really 'need' a large screen.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> I wonder why it took Tivo over 10 years to manage to provider under half that amount of information in an officially supported solution.


At the risk of reopen decade old argument, it's because with a PVR used as it's intended, free space is not a useful thing to know, without also knowing the size of the files which are scheduled for recording.

The Virgin TiVo presumably records the raw datastream, so cannot accurately predict file size.


----------



## EdGillett

http://help.virginmedia.com/system/selfservice.controller

This new?

My Tivo from Sky? My S1 was "recommended" by Sky but I personally loathed that little logo when it came up on the (very) rare reboots. The slides made up for it though 

Anywho - not sure how much is here that we didn't already know.

18mth contract. 
HDMI and SCART that run in parallel.
iPlayer App

And, for the love of God. Stop. Feeding. The. TROLL! 

(hat tip to: http://virgintivo.blogspot.com/2011/01/virgin-media-reveal-faq-for-tivo-18.html)


----------



## AMc

Your first link is busted by the Virgin site structure, try clicking through this page...
http://help.virginmedia.com/system/...GURATION=1002&PARTITION_ID=1&TIMEZONE_OFFSET=

From that blog post quote & the FAQ


> We aim to make TiVo available in early 2011 (current Virgin Media customers will get the chance to upgrade first). By pre-registering your interest youll be kept up to date with the latest news on TiVo such as great new features and, a confirmed launch date once we are able to make this available. .


----------



## PhilG

EdGillett said:


> http://help.virginmedia.com/system/selfservice.controller


When I click on your link I get


> The following error occurred:
> 
> Error:An attempt has been made to access Self-Service without the required parameters.


----------



## warrenrb

EdGillett said:


> And, for the love of God. Stop. Feeding. The. TROLL!


I know. Mr Waring's made the blocklist too now. Those two should get a room...


----------



## okonski_uk

On the point of a 'free space' indicator - it is of course on the V+ screens, and I have to say with HD programming, it is a very important consideration. A 2hr film in HD can soak up to a (claimed) 5hr HD space. Indeed, I need this benchmark to decide whether to record in HD or SD. A 1TB HD will certainly help, but the function is ingrained into my usage patterns!


----------



## Pete77

okonski_uk said:


> A 1TB HD will certainly help, but the function is ingrained into my usage patterns!


I would have thought 2TB drive is really required to provide an acceptable of recording capacity but perhaps they are still too expensive per Gb?

How easy will it be for a customer to change the installed drive on a Virgin Tivo and/or will they be allowed to change it at all? It seems to be relatively easy for Sky+ and Sky HD customers to fit larger hard drives to their boxes.


----------



## mikerr

Pete77 said:


> How easy will it be for a customer to change the installed drive on a Virgin Tivo and/or will they be allowed to change it at all?


Well it's easily done on the V+ - but since you never technically own VirginMedia equipment - its not something you should be doing


----------



## Pete77

mikerr said:


> Well it's easily done on the V+ - but since you never technically own VirginMedia equipment - its not something you should be doing


I can't see why they will mind as long as you keep the original drive and reinstall it in the box as and when you finally return it to them (when it breaks, you cease to be a customer or upgrade to a new higher spec model).


----------



## ruperte

> How easy will it be for a customer to change the installed drive on a Virgin Tivo and/or will they be allowed to change it at all?

I believe thats the point of the eSATA connector on the back - you just plug a eSATA drive of your choice in, and the TiVo will just accept it.


----------



## PeteM

ruperte said:


> I believe thats the point of the eSATA connector on the back - you just plug a eSATA drive of your choice in, and the TiVo will just accept it.


I think you're getting ahead of yourself there! The specs of the box haven't been announced, and while it may have eSata or USB ports, only time will tell if they're enabled.

And to revisit this "free HDD space remaining" debate, if you have Suggestions enabled on your TiVo (and why wouldn't you?), then the disk is always full. If you have 10 hours of Suggestions, then that's how much free space you have!


----------



## mikerr

The existing V+ has USB, network and eSata ports - none of which are enabled.
Drives connected by usb or eSata don't show anywhere

I did find my wireless USB keyboard works - but only number keys and cursors - not for text entry.

Lets hope the VM Tivo has its ports enabled.


----------



## hokkers999

mikerr said:


> The existing V+ has USB, network and eSata ports - none of which are enabled.
> Drives connected by usb or eSata don't show anywhere
> 
> I did find my wireless USB keyboard works - but only number keys and cursors - not for text entry.
> 
> Lets hope the VM Tivo has its ports enabled.


Only time will tell but I suspect the answer is "fat chance".

It's why I'm sticking to my old S1 unit, it has a *working* ethernet port....I use it as much for uploading to the Tivo as downloading.

And before CW starts bleating on about copyleft or whatever, it's no different to having videotapes and the courts found those perfectly legal.


----------



## cwaring

mikerr said:


> The existing V+ has USB, network and eSata ports - none of which are enabled. Drives connected by usb or eSata don't show anywhere.





hokkers999 said:


> Only time will tell but I suspect the answer is "fat chance".


My memory of the specfics discussed at the Sofa event last September is fading but I do think that use of one of both of these ports for external storage was discussed and I do seem to recall that they said it was going to happen. But then I suppose they've also said that about a few things over the years, so only time will tell 



hokkers999 said:


> And before CW starts bleating on about copyleft or whatever, it's no different to having videotapes and the courts found those perfectly legal.


Yes. For time-shifting. Making *permanent* versions and/or sharing them has never been legal.


----------



## deshepherd

PeteM said:


> And to revisit this "free HDD space remaining" debate, if you have Suggestions enabled on your TiVo (and why wouldn't you?), then the disk is always full. If you have 10 hours of Suggestions, then that's how much free space you have!


Precisely ... for me that's the main reason for having suggestions turned on ... scroll down to bottom of "Now playing" and no suggestions means its full so the (!) items are going to start going soon, but it there's a page of suggestions then there's "plenty of space" for the moment.


----------



## okonski_uk

I agree, having Tivo suggestions turned off is a bit of an own goal - but even then, if I'm to be profligate with my HD recordings, I don't really want all my suggestions (many of which I will want to watch) being summarily wiped before I get a chance to view (or marking them as a DND). As I recall, Top-Up TV have a system whereby you can stipulate a % of HD space to be used by 'notional' programming... I wonder if this option will be on the new Tivo?


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> Yes. For time-shifting. Making *permanent* versions and/or sharing them has never been legal.


...and SELLING them has never been legal.

There, corrected that for you. 

Once you have an item taped you can do what you like with it, lend it to your friend or sit it on the shelf for 20 years, makes no odds.

Why do you think the original S1 had an option to output to vcr? Because they were encouraging us to be law breakers?

...and Tesco/Argos et al selling DVD (instead of videotape) recorders is also illegal then by your argument?


----------



## TCM2007

It's up to the copyright owners whether they allow you to make permanent or lending copies. You can't assume they would all say no, hence having that facility. Many Open University programmes, for example, specifically allow you to make tapes for educational purposes.

But there is no legal right to tape something and lend it to a friend; only time shifting has a specific legal get-out of the copyright laws.


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> Once you have an item taped you can do what you like with it....


Not leagally you can't. Okay. No-one has ever been (or is ever likely to be) prosecuted for it, but that does not mean you have carte blanche to "do what you like with it".



> ...and Tesco/Argos et al selling DVD (instead of videotape) recorders is also illegal then by your argument?


No. Because some sort recording devide is required for time-shift purposes  Not to mention that it is perfectly legal to make your own "home movie" recordings onto DVD.

You would think that, after being proved completely wrong on numerous occasions now, mr hokkers99 might have decided to not proffer any further opnions. Unless he _likes_ being shown-up in public


----------



## steveroe

Carl - please stop replying to him!


----------



## ruperte

PeteM said:


> I think you're getting ahead of yourself there! The specs of the box haven't been announced, and while it may have eSata or USB ports, only time will tell if they're enabled.


Quite right! I had a closer squint at this:

http://www.techradar.com/news/television/in-depth-first-look-at-virgin-media-powered-by-tivo-912071

It does seem the eSATA port isn't on the Virgin model. I hope that the USB ports are USB2 and enabled for expansion.


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> Not leagally you can't. Okay. No-one has ever been (or is ever likely to be) prosecuted for it, but that does not mean you have carte blanche to "do what you like with it".
> 
> No. Because some sort recording devide is required for time-shift purposes  Not to mention that it is perfectly legal to make your own "home movie" recordings onto DVD.
> 
> You would think that, after being proved completely wrong on numerous occasions now, mr hokkers99 might have decided to not proffer any further opnions. Unless he _likes_ being shown-up in public


I did specifically say that SELLING it wasn't allowed, all other things - sticking it on the shelf for years or LENDING it to other people are.

As for the DVD recorder attached to the telly, I don't know about you but I don't have a tv broadcasting channel so that I can record my home movies over the air. Clearly the dvd recording facility is for recording tv broadcasts.

Any more fallacies you want debunked?


----------



## cwaring

steveroe said:


> Carl - please stop replying to him!


Okay, Dad


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> As for the DVD recorder attached to the telly, I don't know about you but I don't have a tv broadcasting channel so that I can record my home movies over the air.


Neither does anyone else, of course.



> Clearly the dvd recording facility is for recording tv broadcasts.


Unless, of course, you were to connect your video camera to it via SCART or Component and record your home movies that way.

Or, of course, if you have a digital video camera and can use your PC to transfer the files to DVD to play on your DVD Player/recorder.



> Any more fallacies you want debunked?


I wouldn't ask you if I did as you plainly don't have a clue about much of anything.

You are now on 'ignore'. My first one _ever_. So well done!


----------



## jonphil

wow I've just discovered the ignore list, it's so nice to not have to read some people's constantly negative posts.


----------



## TCM2007

hokkers999 said:


> I did specifically say that SELLING it wasn't allowed, all other things - sticking it on the shelf for years or LENDING it to other people are.


No, lending it is not allowed either. Sticking on the shelf you years is arguable as the length of time which defines "timeshifting" is not specified in the law.

Of course the damages awarded for lending to one person will be virtually zero, but that doesn't mean it's "allowed".


----------



## warrenrb

TiVo docs on the VM site now...

http://virgintivo.blogspot.com/2011...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


----------



## warrenrb

Including PDF full user guide! 

http://www.virginmedia.com/tivo/tivo_complete_guide.pdf


----------



## warrenrb

Wow, not a lot has changed after all these years and 3 'series', has it?

You know what though? I think TiVo really IS coming back to the UK. It wasn't a dream after all...


----------



## cwaring

Bah! Late again Carl  Was just going to post this lot; nicked from a post on DS

Quickstart guide: http://www.virginmedia.com/tivo/tivo_quick_guide.pdf

The complete guide: http://www.virginmedia.com/tivo/tivo_complete_guide.pdf

Introduction: http://help.virginmedia.com/system/...TYPE=Cable&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=351836

Getting started: http://help.virginmedia.com/system/...TYPE=Cable&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=351835

User guide: http://help.virginmedia.com/system/...TYPE=Cable&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=351839

Recording from the buffer: http://help.virginmedia.com/system/...TYPE=Cable&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=351789

The remote: http://www.virginmedia.com/images/tivo-remote.jpg

Remote setup: http://help.virginmedia.com/system/...TYPE=Cable&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=351786

Remote codes list: http://www.virginmedia.com/tivo/tv_remote_code_list.pdf

Wireless connectivity with other devices?: http://help.virginmedia.com/system/...TYPE=Cable&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=351793


----------



## mikerr

cwaring said:


> Wireless connectivity with other devices?: http://help.virginmedia.com/system/...TYPE=Cable&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=351793


I doesn't say wireless... but the mentioned "media access key" is used in TiVo Desktop, 
so that's good news for those who want to get recordings on/off tivo onto a PC


----------



## jonphil

mikerr said:


> I doesn't say wireless... but the mentioned "media access key" is used in TiVo Desktop,
> so that's good news for those who want to get recordings on/off tivo onto a PC


I noticed that mentioned too 
Only thing I don't follow is if the 10mb connection is dedicated wouldn't that actually separate Tivo from the local network. I can only assume they are going to be doing something clever in the router setup.


----------



## Milhouse

jonphil said:


> I noticed that mentioned too
> Only thing I don't follow is if the 10mb connection is dedicated wouldn't that actually separate Tivo from the local network. I can only assume they are going to be doing something clever in the router setup.


The VM TiVo has an RJ45 socket for local networking - the dedicated 10Mb connection is via the coax cable.










From the "Introduction to your TiVo" FAQ:



> When you TiVo box is installed the following connections will be used:
> # Cable Input
> # Power Connector
> # HDMI (or SCART if you dont have an HD TV)
> # Smartcard Slot


----------



## jonphil

Cool.... I was wondering why it only had the one network port.


----------



## Pete77

warrenrb said:


> Wow, not a lot has changed after all these years and 3 'series', has it?


If it ain't broke don't fix it tends to be the usual approach with an existing product. And never was there a product where so many of the existing user friendly menus and unique features cried out to be carried on exactly as is.

But clearly they have added HD, video on demand, wireless connectivity and multiple tuners. And I would hope it is now possible to operate the main recording menus whilst still being able to watch and hear some sort of television picture.

Either way for those of us still forced to carry on using an S1 living in a non cable area its reassuring to hear that many Virgin Tivo features still run just the way that they did on the Tivo S1 more than 10 years ago.:up:


----------



## jonphil

the hardware spec has changed the most. just look on wikipedia at the cpu and memory difference to series 1 units.


----------



## John McE

Great to finally be able to read the User's Guide - almost as good as getting the actual box!

A couple of things I noticed. Firstly, I see we'll now have a dedicated 30 second skip forward button. Terrific news.

According to the guide, a season pass will now only work with one channel, as opposed to picking up a programme regardless of which channel it appears on. That's a shame. With my current TIVO, it'll pick up repeats on Dave, More4, UKTV Gold etc. Is that definitely true? Shame if it is.

Also, the "keyboard" screen doesn't seem to have numbers included now - so how do you search for anything with a number in it (6 o'clock news, for instance?)

At first glance, it appears that there will be rather more icons displayed on screen than before (audio format, subtitles etc.) - I realise that the new TIVO does rather more than the old version, but I hope we don't lose it's simplicity, as that is one of the old TIVO's best features.

There doesn't appear to be any way to re-order channels, or get only the HD versions to appear at the top of the channel list. I realise you can set up a favourites list, but it's not quite the same thing.

Still can't wait to get my hands on one though!


----------



## mikerr

Pete77 said:


> hope it is now possible to operate the main recording menus whilst still being able to watch and hear some sort of television picture.


Yep - all the screenshots have a video in the top right of the menus, and its running in the demo video. (and in the video below below) Personally thats a feature of v+ I don't like - I always pause/mute when in the menus.

I notice on the now playing screen it shows films with the year in brackets - but doesn't show episode info in the blank area. It does once you're in a folders/group though (groups 3 mins into this video)


----------



## deshepherd

John McE said:


> According to the guide, a season pass will now only work with one channel, as opposed to picking up a programme regardless of which channel it appears on. That's a shame. With my current TIVO, it'll pick up repeats on Dave, More4, UKTV Gold etc. Is that definitely true? Shame if it is.


Not sure this always works at present ... e.g. we have a SP for Location^3 which at times has clashed with other things so we've had to set it to record on More4 manually I think.

Also, picking up from other channels isn't always desirable ... you have a SP for a prog like L^3 to pick up a 1 hour edition each week then one day you find that More4 has had L^3 weekend and its spent the entire day recording that in preference to anything else. Probably not so much of an issue with 2 tuners and 1TB disk!


----------



## Milhouse

John McE said:


> According to the guide, a season pass will now only work with one channel, as opposed to picking up a programme regardless of which channel it appears on.
> 
> That's a shame. With my current TIVO, it'll pick up repeats on Dave, More4, UKTV Gold etc. Is that definitely true? Shame if it is.


No, that's how Season Passes have always worked.

It's the Wishlist that works irrespective of the channel.


----------



## mikerr

John McE said:


> According to the guide, a season pass will now only work with one channel, as opposed to picking up a programme regardless of which channel it appears on. That's a shame. With my current TIVO, it'll pick up repeats on Dave, More4, UKTV Gold etc. Is that definitely true? Shame if it is.


SPs have always been tied to a channel (at least on UK TiVos) - they will however show the programme on other channels if you go to "view upcoming episodes", but won't automatically record across different channels.

Wishlists are multi channel though - maybe thats where the confusion is.

I see standard USB wireless keyboards work with the US premiere, may be handy for searching:


----------



## jonphil

The Sky HD box so needs an undelete. Can't tell you how many times I accidentally caught the button twice and deleted more than the program I wanted too.
(Skys wisdom of a single button no questions asked delete option?)


----------



## TCM2007

deshepherd said:


> Not sure this always works at present ... e.g. we have a SP for Location^3 which at times has clashed with other things so we've had to set it to record on More4 manually I think.
> 
> Also, picking up from other channels isn't always desirable ... you have a SP for a prog like L^3 to pick up a 1 hour edition each week then one day you find that More4 has had L^3 weekend and its spent the entire day recording that in preference to anything else. Probably not so much of an issue with 2 tuners and 1TB disk!


Nice feature of Media Centre is it lets you choose which way that function works. Also lets you prefer showings at particular time slots (helpful for avoiding signed recordings).


----------



## ericd121

Having skipped through the PDFs that Carl linked to, it's not immediately obvious how this Tivo will connect to our home networks, and what connections it will support.

I'd be hoping for a TivoWeb equivalent or better, and integration of our home media servers to play downloaded content through the Tivo interface.


----------



## jonphil

@ericd121 I asked a similar question on the last page.
Someone said that the network port is only for the local network and internet access is through the cable.
Suppose as for other apps we may get similar / be able to use the same ones available for the premiere boxes in the USA.
Virgin have made the TV guide to be able to set recordings, but it would be nice to see what's already scheduled and how it handles conflicts (SkyHD boxes give priority to the remote record, which isn't the best at times).
The guide does mention a Media Access Key which is what Tivo Desktop on the PC needs, so maybe we will be able to extract recordings like they do in the USA.


----------



## Major dude

John McE said:


> Firstly, I see we'll now have a dedicated 30 second skip forward button. Terrific news.


Sorry to rain on the parade but if its like TiVo premiere apparently I was previously informed in an earlier thread that 'it isn't an "instant skip" like the one you can enable by a code, but a scan -- a really quick scan through 30 seconds you're skipping, so you're seeing a second or so of video.'

But you will still be able to install the 30 sec hack.


----------



## cwaring

Major dude said:


> But you will still be able to install the 30 sec hack.


Erm... no you won't. Well, not and remain within the T&C anyway


----------



## dswallow

cwaring said:


> Erm... no you won't. Well, not and remain within the T&C anyway


The "30-second hack" is just a keyboard code you type once; it's persistent across reboots on the Premiere and Series 3/HD and Series 2 units, so there's no reason to believe that it won't work the same way on this Virgin unit.

Select - Play - Select - 3 - 0 - Select


----------



## cwaring

Okay. Fair enough. That's assuming they are implemented in the UK version; though there's no reason to think they won't be. Any others?


----------



## TCM2007

Here's the list

http://tivo.drosoph.com/


----------



## hokkers999

John McE said:


> Great to finally be able to read the User's Guide - almost as good as getting the actual box!
> 
> A couple of things I noticed.


They've taken the Tivo guy off the remote 

You can't record "catch up" ?


----------



## Pine Cladding

hokkers999 said:


> They've taken the Tivo guy off the remote
> QUOTE]
> 
> Perhaps I can take him off one of the half dozen original remotes I have and glue him onto the Virgin one


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> You can't record "catch up" ?


You've never been able to record it on the V+. You can only do so on the S1 because it doesn't know what it's recording. It's a quirk rather than a feature OD wasn't around in 2000.


----------



## John McE

You can however often record Catch Up programmes from the V+ box onto a connected PVR. And even if the programme is copy protected (and many aren't), if you feed it through a standards convertor, you can record even the protected programmes in NTSC.


----------



## cwaring

Which is a _long_ way round to do something that isn't even really strictly necessary


----------



## Pete77

Pine Cladding said:


> Perhaps I can take him off one of the half dozen original remotes I have and glue him onto the Virgin one


Won't a US Tivo Premiere remote probably also be compatible with a new Virgin Tivo?

So I can see a great import and sales opportunity there for both www.tivocentral.co.uk and www.tivoland.com , especially if there was also a lightie up keys remote like the ones Tivoheaven used to import with a Tivoguy key on it that would also work the Virgin Tivo.


----------



## cwaring

I'm after the one with the QWERTY keyboard; if I could ever afford one


----------



## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> I'm after the one with the QWERTY keyboard; if I could ever afford one


If you have any intention of even attempting to use the "internet" via the Tivo you'll need one.


----------



## pengbo

Anyone know of someone you can contact at Virgin other than the usual customer services who can answer why I can't get cable despite being in a cable area and my mate around the corner can?

Have a S1 Tivo and have for last 8 years and would love the new version.


----------



## cwaring

hokkers999 said:


> If you have any intention of even attempting to use the "internet" via the Tivo you'll need one.


Maybe. However, it will more be used for entering Wishlists and the like 


pengbo said:


> Anyone know of someone you can contact at Virgin other than the usual customer services who can answer why I can't get cable despite being in a cable area and my mate around the corner can?


Send an outline of the situation to "cablemystreet AT virginmedia DOT co DOT uk". They are the ones who can advise. I know they are actively looking for 'fill in' areas.


----------



## Fizz

cwaring said:


> Maybe. However, it will more be used for entering Wishlists and the like
> 
> Send an outline of the situation to "cablemystreet AT virginmedia DOT co DOT uk". They are the ones who can advise. I know they are actively looking for 'fill in' areas.


They have not replied to either of my emails I have sent over the last 3 months


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## cwaring

Well that's my standard reply when people ask  I will try to find out if it's still monitored for you. Or you could just tweet @virginmedia yourself you're on Twitter.


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## Muttley1900

Fizz said:


> They have not replied to either of my emails I have sent over the last 3 months


They've been very good at responding to my questions over the last 6 months - First in Sept 2010 and the last one a week or so ago.


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## cwaring

Well that answers the "are they still there" question, if nothing else


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## Milhouse

cwaring said:


> Maybe. However, it will more be used for entering Wishlists and the like
> 
> Send an outline of the situation to "cablemystreet AT virginmedia DOT co DOT uk". They are the ones who can advise. I know they are actively looking for 'fill in' areas.


I'm officially in an old analogue network area and have had it confirmed they have no plans to upgrade that network to digital (and despite being able to receive digital cable TV perfectly in my property they refuse to let me subscribe). What amazes me is how anyone genuinely believes they will "fill in" a new area when they are incapable of upgrading their services in areas they already cover.

No offence Carl but I believe this "fill in" dialogue with VM is just a scam to keep people on the hook.


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## martink0646

Milhouse said:


> I'm officially in an old analogue network area and have had it confirmed they have no plans to upgrade that network to digital (and despite being able to receive digital cable TV perfectly in my property they refuse to let me subscribe). What amazes me is how anyone genuinely believes they will "fill in" a new area when they are incapable of upgrading their services in areas they already cover.
> 
> No offence Carl but I believe this "fill in" dialogue with VM is just a scam to keep people on the hook.


Hi Millhouse,

Up to last May I lived in an analogue Virgin area. I made repeated calls to find out about when the upgrade to digital would be plus speaking to people at roadshows at shopping centres & the answer I always got was "no timescale for upgrade but not in the forseeable future" I moved to a non-Virgin area (close but in the country) on May 1st & when I picked up some mail the next week I had a flyer, addressed to me announcing....yep you guessed it - Upgrade to digital grrrrr.

So it could happen at anytime, not comforting but at least you know asking the question is pointless & the waste of a perfectly good phone call.

Martin


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## Milhouse

Hi Martin - in the forlorn hope that something may actually happen I sent "Cable my street" another email on Sunday asking for an update as the last communication I had with them was dated Feb 2010. I'm not holding my breath though.


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## Pete77

Milhouse said:


> Hi Martin - in the forlorn hope that something may actually happen I sent "Cable my street" another email on Sunday asking for an update as the last communication I had with them was dated Feb 2010. I'm not holding my breath though.


I would suggest if you want to have any chance at all of a high level response that might actually influence their current network planning then you need to contact their CEO, Neil Berkett as listed at www.connectotel.com/marcus/ceoemail.html



Code:


[email protected]


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## cwaring

I have to say that the more I read the User Manual, the more impressed I am.

_Series Link Options_
Start recording
Adjust the recording to start either a little earlier, *or a little later*, than the official start time.
(My emphasis)

Stop recording
Does the show sometimes run over its official time? Adjust the recording to stop a little later, or start a bit later if you prefer.

_Recording with Overlap Protection ™_
If Overlap Protection is turned off, when two shows overlap by a few minutes on the same tuner, the lower priority recording is cancelled. With Overlap Protection turned on, your TiVo box cuts the lower priority recording by a few minutes (up to 5) to allow both shows to record.

For repeated recordings, Overlap Protection uses the Manage My Series Links menu to learn which shows have higher or lower priorities. One-off recordings receive the highest priority, while TiVo Suggestions always have the lowest. When you set a new recording, your TiVo box will let you know of any recording clashes and give you options to resolve it, including cutting short the lower priority show.

There's show groupings and an undelete too.

(Yes, I *am* aware that hacks for the S1 made some these things possible, but I'm still liking it )


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## TCM2007

Some? All!


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## cwaring

TCM2007 said:


> Some? All!


No. Endpad couldn't delay the start of the second of two a back-to-back recordings, could it?


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## TCM2007

Yes, if you set up negative padding.


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## cwaring

Fairy snuff. Who cares anyway. IT'S A NEW TIVO


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## warrenrb

My 'instant email on updates' subscription to these threads is fairly killing my productivity this afternoon.


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## cwaring

LOL! Sorry mate.


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## okonski_uk

Just wait till they tell you that because of the recent price hikes on the Stena HSS, your 'free installation' fee is actually &#163;100!


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## LaupSavea

It's a shame that VM haven't segmented their market and offered those of us who are happy with their TIVO and Freeview an equivalent package for which we would pay a monthly subscription that would cover VM's costs plus some profit margin. This group of customers would 1) probably pay for the upgrade to their machine 2) Are Mavens or early adopters who are comfortable with the TIVO OS and influence others 3) Would have the infrastructure that would let them easily upgrade when they get to see other channels which will no doubt be advertised by VM. This would be win, win.

The alternative is that few of this group would be willing to pay for XL TV as they do not want premium channels and so, VM gets no revenue at all and no eyeballs from this group at all - which is lose, lose.


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## hokkers999

cwaring said:


> [snip]
> 
> _Recording with Overlap Protection _
> If Overlap Protection is turned off, when two shows overlap by a few minutes on the same tuner, the lower priority recording is cancelled. With Overlap Protection turned on, your TiVo box cuts the lower priority recording by a few minutes (up to 5) to allow both shows to record.


Wow that's really helpful isn't it, get a programme with the first 5 minutes missing.


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## ruperte

hokkers999 said:


> Wow that's really helpful isn't it, get a programme with the first 5 minutes missing.


Well come the 3rd tuner being enabled, it's not likely to happen very much anyway


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## cwaring

Exactly. It's also a nice feature to have "just in case". Plus, on digital channels, progs don't always start exactly on time


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## Pete77

cwaring said:


> Exactly. It's also a nice feature to have "just in case". Plus, on digital channels, progs don't always start exactly on time


Surely you mean they don't always start and stop on time on the five digital channels still also broadcast on analogue.

I had the Australian Open tennis final (featuring Andy Murray) scheduled to record on my Tivo on Sunday morning but yet again the bastard BBC changed the broadcast channel from BBC Two to BBC One at the last moment and swapped all programs being shown between the two channels. Apparently they still think its 1971 and everyone is watching live tv and anyhow how many people do they really think would be watching tv at 8.30am on Sunday morning who had not got up specially for the tennis final.

Net result if I hadn't got up on time for the start I would have been recording politics programs and not the tennis.

Is that a situation which the new Virgin Tivo would handle i.e. does it cater with last minute changes in the BBC EPG as I believe Freeview + and Freesat + do?


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## TCM2007

I dont think any system handles channel switches well. There a chance MC7 might, but never tried it!


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## mikerr

cwaring said:


> I'm after the one with the QWERTY keyboard; if I could ever afford one


I have one - it's Bluetooth, so I'll let you all know if it works when I get the new TiVo.

Roll on the 15th for the install!


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> I dont think any system handles channel switches well. There a chance MC7 might, but never tried it!


Then why do the imbeciles who run the BBC's scheduling still do it despite numerous previous complaint to them on this topic from myself and loads of other viewers.

People who want the Sunday morning politics shows will tune in to them anyway as they are a dedicated bunch. Therefore if the BBC really think that a few more people getting up and switching on their tv at 10am bleary eyed will stay watching the BBC because their telly or Sky box starts up on BBC1 (don't most of them actually now turn back on to the channel they were last on when they were switched off rather than always reverting to channel 1 or channel 101) and if they find Andy Murray in a tennis final they will keep watching then why don't they just schedule the Australian Open tennis final for BBC One from the outset.

As the Australian Open tennis final could have been a program of up to six hours screwing up everyone's scheduled recordings on Sky+, V+ Freview+ etc for six hours it seems a quite unforgivable and quite unnecessary thing to do when it is purely in a tawdry attempt to grab higher viewing figures. Were they a commercial channel with advertising their obsession with this topic might make some sense but for the BBC it makes no sense at all.:down::down::down:

Also our viewing enjoyment of the Australian Open final was regularly spoiled by announcements aimed at those who were wanting to view the originally scheduled programs on BBC One telling them that they were now showing over on BBC Two. It really does defy belief that the BBC are still allowed to get away with this nonsense as well as not having programs available to view on the Iplayer from the second they start broadcasting rather than only an hour after broadcast (I never know if that is an hour from when they started screening or when the program finished broadcasting).


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## cwaring

mikerr said:


> I have one - it's Bluetooth, so I'll let you all know if it works when I get the new TiVo. Roll on the 15th for the install!


Thanks Mike. Look forward to it.

*EDIT:*

That said, my Harmony 525 just died and they've given me 50% off a new one so was thinking about one of these.

However, I know that the new Tivo remote will control my telly okay, but the way it (ie my TV) works, any other remote will only switch it _off_ and not on; which is most annoying 

So I might just get that Harmony remote and one of these. (It'll store out the way until I need it!)


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## laurence

Carl,
Logitech did that for me when one of mine died. That code works on your whole order, so buy up any remotes you think you might need way into the future!
When I realised that I could do that, I got a harmony 1 for the kitchen, bedroom and lounge. And a ps3 Bluetooth adapter, and a 555 for my parents.
I realise now that I should have given the family a remote each for Christmas!


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## RichardJH

Pete77 said:


> Net result if I hadn't got up on time for the start I would have been recording politics programs and not the tennis.?


Shame we could have swapped recordings as I ended up with a recording of another British (Scottish) tennis hopeful losing again and I wanted the Politics programs.

Still never mind BBC Iplayer helped out with my dilemma unfortunately not with Andy Murrays


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## RichardJH

cwaring said:


> That said, my Harmony 525 just died and they've given me 50% off a new one so was thinking about one of these.)


Carl is the 50% off by code or personal offer from Logitech. One of my H655's is reaching the end of its life and I am considering a replacement and 50% of always helps the budget


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## cwaring

[email protected] said:


> Carl, Logitech did that for me when one of mine died. That code works on your whole order, so buy up any remotes you think you might need way into the future!


A nice idea, but I can barely afford the one right now as I have a Tivo to buy too remember 



RichardJH said:


> Carl is the 50% off by code or personal offer from Logitech.


Both  It's by code but it's only for me; as far as I know.


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## RichardJH

Carl PM sent


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## spitfires

LaupSavea said:


> It's a shame that VM haven't segmented their market and offered those of us who are happy with their TIVO and Freeview an equivalent package for which we would pay a monthly subscription that would cover VM's costs plus some profit margin. [...]


I suspect the new box is so closely inetgrated with on-demand services that it would look silly (i.e. either not work at all or have big holes in menus, etc) trying to run with basic free tele'.


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## cwaring

RichardJH said:


> Carl PM sent


Answered.


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## martink0646

Pete77 said:


> Then why do the imbeciles who run the BBC's scheduling still do it despite numerous previous complaint to them on this topic from myself and loads of other viewers.
> 
> People who want the Sunday morning politics shows will tune in to them anyway as they are a dedicated bunch. Therefore if the BBC really think that a few more people getting up and switching on their tv at 10am bleary eyed will stay watching the BBC because their telly or Sky box starts up on BBC1 (don't most of them actually now turn back on to the channel they were last on when they were switched off rather than always reverting to channel 1 or channel 101) and if they find Andy Murray in a tennis final they will keep watching then why don't they just schedule the Australian Open tennis final for BBC One from the outset.
> 
> As the Australian Open tennis final could have been a program of up to six hours screwing up everyone's scheduled recordings on Sky+, V+ Freview+ etc for six hours it seems a quite unforgivable and quite unnecessary thing to do when it is purely in a tawdry attempt to grab higher viewing figures. Were they a commercial channel with advertising their obsession with this topic might make some sense but for the BBC it makes no sense at all.:down::down::down:
> 
> Also our viewing enjoyment of the Australian Open final was regularly spoiled by announcements aimed at those who were wanting to view the originally scheduled programs on BBC One telling them that they were now showing over on BBC Two. It really does defy belief that the BBC are still allowed to get away with this nonsense as well as not having programs available to view on the Iplayer from the second they start broadcasting rather than only an hour after broadcast (I never know if that is an hour from when they started screening or when the program finished broadcasting)


Pete,

I would (& will) generally agree with you on this matter but they actually did have a reason to do it this time. It was due to be shown on BBC2 & BBCHD but in switching it to BBC1 it would then be shown on SD & HD automatically (BBC1HD) without having to use up the BBCHD feed. How did I know this? I was at my parents on Saturday night/Sunday morning & he has freeview & BBCHD from a Pace box I had left over. Come Sunday morning, switch to BBCHD & nothing but kids programs!

Martin


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## cwaring

[email protected] said:


> Logitech did that for me when one of mine died. *That code works on your whole order*, so buy up any remotes you think you might need way into the future!


Mine didn't  I tried adding something else and the discount disappeared!


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## Milhouse

Milhouse said:


> Hi Martin - in the forlorn hope that something may actually happen I sent "Cable my street" another email on Sunday asking for an update as the last communication I had with them was dated Feb 2010. I'm not holding my breath though.


A week has gone by and no reply to my email sent to "@cablemystreet" - as suspected, it's just a waste of time. Virgin will expand their network as and when they see fit and no amount of emails to false hope scams such as "@cablemystreet" will change that.

May fire off an email to Berkett, what the hell.


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## Muttley1900

mikerr said:


> I have one - it's Bluetooth, so I'll let you all know if it works when I get the new TiVo.
> 
> Roll on the 15th for the install!


Do you know if it works on the new box? Not that you haven't been busy playing with the new bit of tin in other ways in less than 24 hours 

J.


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## RichardJH

Muttley1900 said:


> Do you know if it works on the new box? Not that you haven't been busy playing with the new bit of tin in other ways in less than 24 hours
> 
> J.


The engineer that fitted mine yesterday said that the inbuilt bluetooth was not yet activated but VM hoped to bring out a qwerty keyboard remote at some time.

Also for info just tried a mini usb wireless keyboard and that did not work. I guess the USB are not active either.


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## cwaring

Oh bum


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## frobozz

RichardJH said:


> Also for info just tried a mini usb wireless keyboard and that did not work. I guess the USB are not active either.


USB not active, in that the keyboard I tried did not work either, but they are powered. I plugged a mouse in and it lit up.


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## Zaichik

One of the VM TiVo blogs quotes the MD of Virgin saying that he did not want users of TiVo to have keyboards on their sofas.


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## sjp

Zaichik said:


> One of the VM TiVo blogs quotes the MD of Virgin saying that he did not want users of TiVo to have keyboards on their sofas.


in that case may I invite this Virgin employee ('cos that's what he basically is) round my place to enter all my wishlists using the remote.

what's it got to do with them what I keep on my sofa!


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