# TiVo prepping nex generation DVRs



## bradleys

Dave Z has a good article on The Verge about the TiVo Series 5.



> TiVo is prepping a beefy six-tuner DVR that can expand beyond the 2-terabyte storage limit, making for a capacious media hub ideally suited to feed a number of TiVo Mini extenders sprinkled around the home.


http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/17/4...eration-dvrs-with-new-remote-up-to-six-tuners

I am patiently waiting to upgrade! 

Series 5 - 6 tuner unit + 3 TiVo MINis


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## MeInDallas

"we've learned TiVo is prepping a beefy six-tuner DVR that can expand beyond the 2-terabyte storage limit"

I've been dying to buy one of the 3TB WD30EURS!


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## bradleys

Yep - me too... But I wouldn't be surprised if the 6 tuner XL model comes with the 3TB drive stock.


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## MeInDallas

Seagate has a new 4TB Pipeline HD about to be released, I'm sure Western Digital will follow . . . hopefully.


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## mattack

Yeah for beyond 2 TB limit!


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## cherry ghost

I hope they add user profiles


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## Davisadm

bradleys said:


> Yep - me too... But I wouldn't be surprised if the 6 tuner XL model comes with the 3TB drive stock.


When it comes out, there will be options up to 3TB/450 hours.


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## jsmeeker

Maybe the menus/UI will be 100% HD.


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## davezatz

Davisadm said:


> When it comes out, there will be options up to 3TB/450 hours.


Yeah, so I'm hearing there's a possibility of two versions - one with that 3TB drive you mention ("XL" ?). Also sounds like WiFi could be in the mix, but I'm waiting for more intel on that point and I'd rather use my MoCA.


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## mr.unnatural

Nice to see Tivo is finally coming out with a box that still lags behind my HTPC (currently with 11 cablecard tuners, six ATSC tuners, no 2TB limit and no Tivo fees).


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## sbiller

davezatz said:


> Yeah, so I'm hearing there's a possibility of two versions - one with that 3TB drive you mention ("XL" ?). Also sounds like WiFi could be in the mix, but I'm waiting for more intel on that point and I'd rather use my MoCA.


It will be nice to have an RF remote with no dongle required. I'm curious whether these remotes will work with legacy boxes - guessing not.

I'm also curious to see where TiVo goes with their 'major' software release this fall. They've fallen behind in a couple of areas so I expect they might focus on improving their content recommendation associated with sports (e.g., On-screen WTW). Also still waiting on user profiles...


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## gothaggis

hopefully the cpu is more powerful - still not happy with the speed of the HD menus on my premiere (much better than launch obviously...but still ****)


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## sbiller

gothaggis said:


> hopefully the cpu is more powerful - still not happy with the speed of the HD menus on my premiere (much better than launch obviously...but still ****)


That's 100% certain. The Mini already runs circles around the Premiere boxes.


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## BigJimOutlaw

With a better processor, expanded (4 tuner?) OTA support, Android, and dynamic tuner support for the Mini all coming in the fall... this feels like it'll be the first time in a long time that Tivo will be running on all cylinders.

There will always be some software issues, and there are some modernizing features they should add (profiles) but the biggest product issues will be squashed. The whole-home package will be largely complete and on adequately powerful hardware. And the RF remote is icing on the cake.


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## plazman30

mr.unnatural said:


> Nice to see Tivo is finally coming out with a box that still lags behind my HTPC (currently with 11 cablecard tuners, six ATSC tuners, no 2TB limit and no Tivo fees).


That would make the box to expensive for retail. There is a price point to make, when you're competing against the free (in up front cost) cable company DVR.

All I need is a Plex client and I can kiss my Roku goodbye.


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## atmuscarella

Well I need another/new TiVo like I need a whole in my head but if they come out with a 4 tuner OTA version that I can buy with lifetime for under $600 I'm buying it.


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## moedaman

mr.unnatural said:


> Nice to see Tivo is finally coming out with a box that still lags behind my HTPC (currently with 11 cablecard tuners, six ATSC tuners, no 2TB limit and no Tivo fees).


But you're far from being the typical consumer. The vast majority of people don't even need 6 tuners, so a new box with six tuners would probably satisfy 95%+ of the market. You could always buy a second Tivo, no need to buy extra tuners if they're not needed.

Hell, I have 6 ota tuners to record from (Series 2ST, Premiere, 3 tuner HTPC), plus a 2 tuner Dish 722K dvr. My family rarely has the need for more than 4 tuners running at a time.


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## mtsmylie

Looking forward to it! I'm continuing to try to tolerate my awful TWC Motorola DVR, and I will drop it like a bad habit when the new Tivos come out.


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## moedaman

atmuscarella said:


> Well I need another/new TiVo like I need a whole in my head but if they come out with a 4 tuner OTA version that I can buy with lifetime for under $600 I'm buying it.


You'll probably have to wait for refrubs to come out then. The Premiere 4 is selling for $250. No way would Tivo price a new 4 tuner ota box cheaper than that.


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## NYHeel

moedaman said:


> You'll probably have to wait for refrubs to come out then. The Premiere 4 is selling for $250. No way would Tivo price a new 4 tuner ota box cheaper than that.


Why not? The Premiere 4 is $250 + $400 lifetime (with MSD) but with the current promotion that many have been emailed you can get the premiere 4 for $550 total with lifetime. Why couldn't a 4 tuner OTA box come in at $600? Technology usually gets cheaper with time not more expensive.


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## buscuitboy

atmuscarella said:


> Well I need another/new TiVo like I need a whole in my head but if they come out with a 4 tuner OTA version that I can buy with lifetime for under $600 I'm buying it.


I would LOVE to see a 4-tuner OTA box of some kind, but I have a feeling they will not be supporting OTA in the next Series 5s and it will most likely just be a 6-tuner digital cable only box.

I think a good option would be to have a 6-tuner TiVo, but then have an external OTA tuner hardware of some kind that would connect to its USB port. This would be an awesome option & alternative. Not sure this is the direction they will go, but I'm sure we'll find out soon.


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## bradleys

moedaman said:


> You'll probably have to wait for refrubs to come out then. The Premiere 4 is selling for $250. No way would Tivo price a new 4 tuner ota box cheaper than that.


That is a good point - The least expensive Tivo today is the 2 tuner TiVo @ $150. Personally, I think the new line-up will include:

P5 - 4 Tuner OTA 
P5 - 4 Tuner Cable
P5 - 6 Tuner (Cable Only)
P5 - 6 Tuner XL (Cable Only)

That's it - I don't think the new line-up will include a 2 tuner option. And it would make sense for the 4 Tuner OTA/Cable options to be @ the same price point.

Any pricing guesses?


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## atmuscarella

moedaman said:


> You'll probably have to wait for refrubs to come out then. The Premiere 4 is selling for $250. No way would Tivo price a new 4 tuner ota box cheaper than that.


Well TiVo has already offered the current Premiere 4 with lifetime to me for $550 and given that once the new models are out the new 4 tuner boxes will likely be replacing the current dual tuner boxes and become TiVo's entry level DVR I do not think that $600 with MSD is out of the realm of possibilities for an upgrade offer (they offered the original Premiere at $470 with lifetime as an upgrade offer).


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## innocentfreak

I will be day one purchase since I have a home waiting for my Elite. 

I would definitely be in for the XL model at 3TB. 

I can't see the P5 XL going for more than $499 at launch. I think above that they really price themselves out unless it includes 1-2 Minis at a large discount say $1000-$1100 for XL and 2 Minis with lifetime on all three.


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## atmuscarella

bradleys said:


> That is a good point - The least expensive Tivo today is the 2 tuner TiVo @ $150. Personally, I think the new line-up will include:
> 
> P5 - 4 Tuner OTA
> P5 - 4 Tuner Cable
> P5 - 6 Tuner (Cable Only)
> P5 - 6 Tuner XL (Cable Only)
> 
> That's it - I don't think the new line-up will include a 2 tuner option. And it would make sense for the 4 Tuner OTA/Cable options to be @ the same price point.
> 
> Any pricing guesses?


I think the 4 tuner box will be a combined OTA/Cable DVR like the current dual tuner models and will be the entry level DVR.

My guess for price is:


4 tuner = $199 or $250
6 tuner $250 or $300 
6 tuner XL model $399 or $450
 With Service costs at the current level.

There is also a slim chance the current Premiere will continue and be the only model that can do Analog cable or OTA and an even slimmer chance that it will be replaced with a new dual tuner model that can still do analog cable & OTA. If either happen then the above pricing might increase.


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## BigJimOutlaw

I don't think Tivo would bother with an OTA-dedicated box. The market isn't big enough. Plus with analog support removed, that makes it easier to make a combined cable/OTA box.

The Premiere and XL launched at $300 and $500. The Elite/XL4 also launched at $500. I'm using those points as my guide.

- $300 4-tuner Cable/OTA
- $400 6-tuner Cable
- $500 6-tuner Cable XL6

All before Lifetime or theoretical launch upgrade offers.

The current platform officially EOL's and they probably all drop in price to between $100 and $300 to dump supply. Analog support will EOL too, so if anyone needs analog get a discounted Premiere during an inevitable sale over the summer while you still can.


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## bradleys

A different product offering for an OTA option might make some sense... The OTA hardware has additional costs, so I am thinking something more in line with:

P5 - 4 Tuner Cable @ $199
P5 - 4 Tuner w/OTA @ $249

Then the 6 tuner options:

P5 - 6 Tuner @ $349
P5 - 6 Tuner XL @ $449 (with built in stream) 

Just a swag, but seems resonable...

*EDIT:* I didn't see your post BJO - I still think it might make sense to break the 4 tuner out and add the additional OTA tuners as an upgrade option. I also think TiVo is going to want to keep a basement price point at at least $250 - a lot of price pressure in Consumer Electronics.


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## moedaman

NYHeel said:


> Why not? The Premiere 4 is $250 + $400 lifetime (with MSD) but with the current promotion that many have been emailed you can get the premiere 4 for $550 total with lifetime. Why couldn't a 4 tuner OTA box come in at $600? Technology usually gets cheaper with time not more expensive.





atmuscarella said:


> Well TiVo has already offered the current Premiere 4 with lifetime to me for $550 and given that once the new models are out the new 4 tuner boxes will likely be replacing the current dual tuner boxes and become TiVo's entry level DVR I do not think that $600 with MSD is out of the realm of possibilities for an upgrade offer (they offered the original Premiere at $470 with lifetime as an upgrade offer).


OK, OK! I guess I may be wrong about pricing.


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## atmuscarella

bradleys said:


> A different product offering for an OTA option might make some sense... The OTA hardware has additional costs, so I am thinking something more in line with:


Actually an OTA only DVR has less costs than a cable one - no cable card hardware or certification which is a significant cost.

In any event I agree with those that do not believe an OTA only box is likely, the cost of adding OTA tuners when they are digital only to a DVR is minor and there are many people who want the combined units.


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## atmuscarella

moedaman said:


> OK, OK! I guess I may be wrong about pricing.


Well given that at this point all we are doing is guessing I think yours is as good as anyone else's  but I certainly hope you are wrong


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## bradleys

atmuscarella said:


> Actually an OTA only DVR has less costs than a cable one - no cable card hardware or certification which is a significant cost.
> 
> In any event I agree with those that do not believe an OTA only box is likely, the cost of adding OTA tuners when they are digital only to a DVR is minor and there are many people who want the combined units.


But I do not think they would do an OTA only box - I think they would do a box that includes OTA functionality. It has a much larger market share then an OTA only box.

If I buy an OTA only box then I can never use it for cable, if I buy a Cable only box, I can never cut the cord. If I purchase a box that offers both options then my options are open.

I think you would find a lot of people springing for the extra $50 just to keep their options open.


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## innocentfreak

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I don't think Tivo would bother with an OTA-dedicated box. The market isn't big enough. Plus with analog support removed, that makes it easier to make a combined cable/OTA box.
> 
> The Premiere and XL launched at $300 and $500. The Elite/XL4 also launched at $500. I'm using those points as my guide.
> 
> - $300 4-tuner Cable/OTA
> - $400 6-tuner Cable
> - $500 6-tuner Cable XL6
> 
> All before Lifetime.
> 
> The current platform officially EOL's and they probably all drop in price to between $100 and $300 to dump supply. Analog support will EOL too, so if you need analog get a discounted Premiere during an inevitable sale over the summer while you still can.


The only thing negative about this is I can't see TiVo wanting its cheapest option to be $300.

This is the only reason I can see them offering a 4 tuner non OTA model for $199.


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## BigJimOutlaw

innocentfreak said:


> The only thing negative about this is I can't see TiVo wanting its cheapest option to be $300.
> 
> This is the only reason I can see them offering a 4 tuner non OTA model for $199.


Understandable. I would have to think in that scenario they would probably just opt to keep selling the existing Premiere 4 for a while longer. The current 4-tuner boxes generally sell at a profit now without a subsidy. It'd be very tempting for them to just keep selling those rather than go to the expense of ramping up a 4th unique manufacturing/assembly tier for a lower-margin product that would have to be subsidized for a time.


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## innocentfreak

I also see it as a lower cost offering to MSOs since they don't need OTA. Unless of course they all jump to Pace boxes.


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## NYHeel

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I don't think Tivo would bother with an OTA-dedicated box. The market isn't big enough. Plus with analog support removed, that makes it easier to make a combined cable/OTA box.
> 
> The Premiere and XL launched at $300 and $500. The Elite/XL4 also launched at $500. I'm using those points as my guide.
> 
> - $300 4-tuner Cable/OTA
> - $400 6-tuner Cable
> - $500 6-tuner Cable XL6
> 
> All before Lifetime or theoretical launch upgrade offers.
> 
> The current platform officially EOL's and they probably all drop in price to between $100 and $300 to dump supply. Analog support will EOL too, so if anyone needs analog get a discounted Premiere during an inevitable sale over the summer while you still can.


I think that much too high unless they have significant bundle discounts with a mini. I understand that Tivo is a premium product but you just can't expect to sell very many of these things at those prices.

I mean who besides a Tivo enthusiast would buy one at those prices? Think about a potential new customer with Fios (that's what I have so I'll compare to Fios). You can pay $300 plus $15 a month or $499 lifetime plus $4 a month cablecard for the Tivo. Or you can just pay $20 a month to Verizon with no upfront costs.

And I know we all think Tivo is so much better but to a typical customer it's just not. The Fios DVR lets you share shows with other set top boxes in the house, allows you to expand storage easily with any eSata drive, and provides a significant amount of free Fios VOD. The Tivo doesn't have Fios VOD (which is a major lacking point to Joe Customer even if you or I don't care too much about it) and has to deal with cablecard headaches and replacement costs if it breaks outside of Tivo's short 90 day warranty. Fios is coming out with their new media center DVR (I think 4 or 5 tuners) and if Tivo prices this way I think they should just close up their retail business.


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## bradleys

NYHeel said:


> I think that much too high unless they have significant bundle discounts with a mini. I understand that Tivo is a premium product but you just can't expect to sell very many of these things at those prices.
> 
> I mean who besides a Tivo enthusiast would buy one at those prices? Think about a potential new customer with Fios (that's what I have so I'll compare to Fios). You can pay $300 plus $15 a month or $499 lifetime plus $4 a month cablecard for the Tivo. Or you can just pay $20 a month to Verizon with no upfront costs.
> 
> And I know we all think Tivo is so much better but to a typical customer it's just not. The Fios DVR lets you share shows with other set top boxes in the house, allows you to expand storage easily with any eSata drive, and provides a significant amount of free Fios VOD. The Tivo doesn't have Fios VOD (which is a major lacking point to Joe Customer even if you or I don't care too much about it) and has to deal with cablecard headaches and replacement costs if it breaks outside of Tivo's short 90 day warranty. Fios is coming out with their new media center DVR (I think 4 or 5 tuners) and if Tivo prices this way I think they should just close up their retail business.


I also think that TiVo will want (needs) an offering that is more competively priced. That is what I based my estimates on - it isn't far off from BJO's estimates, but it keeps an entry level unit and provides a real benefit for each upgrade:

P5 - 4 Tuner Cable only @ $199
P5 - 4 Tuner Cable w/OTA @ $249
P5 - 6 Tuner Cable only @ $349
P5 - 6 Tuner XL Cable only @ $449 (with built in stream)

And with this model, each offering makes you "consider" the next higher.

"The base mode is cheaper - but if I ever want to cut the cable $50 is cheap insurance - Might as well..."

"The XL model is only $100 more and it has a larger hard drive and built in stream - Might as well..."

I do not think that TiVo will continue to offer / develop the legacy Premier line. This would require maintaining multiple development forks and they have never done that in the past.


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## BigJimOutlaw

NYHeel said:


> I think that much too high unless they have significant bundle discounts with a mini. I understand that Tivo is a premium product but you just can't expect to sell very many of these things at those prices.
> 
> I mean who besides a Tivo enthusiast would buy one at those prices? Think about a potential new customer with Fios (that's what I have so I'll compare to Fios). You can pay $300 plus $15 a month or $499 lifetime plus $4 a month cablecard for the Tivo. Or you can just pay $20 a month to Verizon with no upfront costs.
> 
> And I know we all think Tivo is so much better but to a typical customer it's just not. The Fios DVR lets you share shows with other set top boxes in the house, allows you to expand storage easily with any eSata drive, and provides a significant amount of free Fios VOD. The Tivo doesn't have Fios VOD (which is a major lacking point to Joe Customer even if you or I don't care too much about it) and has to deal with cablecard headaches and replacement costs if it breaks outside of Tivo's short 90 day warranty. Fios is coming out with their new media center DVR (I think 4 or 5 tuners) and if Tivo prices this way I think they should just close up their retail business.


This is the timeless Tivo debate. Tivo's prices have pinched people's nerves since the company's inception. All I'm doing is following their pricing history to make an educated guess of what the prices will be, not what we think they should be. It's as practical as any other guess. As a consumer I would LOVE lower prices, but that wasn't the point of my pricing exercise. 

What I don't expect is for brand new modern hardware with 3x the performance to somehow match today's discounted prices of 2-4 year old platforms. I don't have any good reason to believe it's going to happen that quickly. Their new hardware is always more expensive to buy parts for and manufacture at first, and their pricing has to reflect it. The boxes are already subsidized by the service fee. An even bigger and immediate discount on the hardware would likely just result in lower profit in the long run and hasten their closing up the retail business.

It's not a new argument. Tivo's done the math a hundred times. They're doing what they believe they need to. I'm just using history as a guidance tool.


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## innocentfreak

I think one of things that is interesting this launch is they have gotten boxes down to the $99-$149 pricepoint so it puts them in a position of how do you replicate that. 

They could just skip it like console companies do since if you just bought a box you aren't looking to buy. I just think the sub $200 price is too appealing to them and looks good on the shelf. Otherwise oh look the new TiVo and wow they jacked up the price.


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## mr.unnatural

I'd like to see Tivo offer a basic box that can be upgraded with additional tuner modules and an OS that can handle >2TB drives. I'd be curious to know if they could get a Tivo to work with the SiliconDust HDHR Prime or the latest Ceton InfiniTV6 networked tuners. Since Tivo is already approved for cablecard support I'm assuming they wouldn't need to go through CableLabs certification again, but I don't fully understand the process or the requirements. I'm just speculating here. 

I don't know if it's feasible to convert a Tivo to a DLNA capable device, but if they could then they'd likely be able to get live TV feeds via the SD HDHR Prime like you can with a Playstation 3 or WDTV Live media player. Offloading the tuners to third party devices would save hardware costs and allow Tivo to offer the DVR at lower prices while still charging for their service. Tivo already has their own version of a media extender so TV could still be distributed throughout an entire house using existing hardware.


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## Bigpapa7272

Give me a 6 tuner to go with my new 4 tuner and 2 more minis and I can cut down the amount of money I give the cable company each month


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## swerver

I want to keep ota as an option even though I don't currently use it. I also might want 6 tuners... why does it seem like nobody thinks they would have a model with both? Esp. with the argument that without having to support analog, adding ota is very cheap, why wouldn't the top of the line box have it? Personally I'll probably skip 6 tuners if it means I have to commit to cable. I just don't like them enough to do that.


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## innocentfreak

swerver said:


> I want to keep ota as an option even though I don't currently use it. I also might want 6 tuners... why does it seem like nobody thinks they would have a model with both?


Technical limits of the two chip tuner design. I don't have time to dig up the old details, but OTA is far behind tech compared to digital tuners. As a result it takes a lot more to add OTA.

This is why the 4 tuner came out without OTA originally. They may have sourced a company to come up with an efficient way to add 4 OTA tuners.


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## Bierboy

moedaman said:


> ... The vast majority of people don't even need 6 tuners....


I consider myself a heavy user, and I've NEVER had a conflict with four tuners. Since OTA networks are in such disarray with horrible programming, I have no need for more tuners. The cable nets re-broadcast everything...


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## swerver

Yeah I get by on 2 tuners right now, so I'm sure 4 will be plenty for me. I have a couple qam backups in my server but never use them. Just don't want to miss out on other features I may want but can't get without dropping ota option. I still have cable but can see a future where I don't. I love my tivo but it would basically be like signing a contract with comcast if I got a tivo without ota. Can't do that.


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## zalusky

swerver said:


> Yeah I get by on 2 tuners right now, so I'm sure 4 will be plenty for me. I have a couple qam backups in my server but never use them. Just don't want to miss out on other features I may want but can't get without dropping ota option. I still have cable but can see a future where I don't. I love my tivo but it would basically be like signing a contract with comcast if I got a tivo without ota. Can't do that.


If you leave Comcast - sell your box. Whats the big deal.


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## scole250

mr.unnatural said:


> Nice to see Tivo is finally coming out with a box that still lags behind my HTPC (currently with 11 cablecard tuners, six ATSC tuners, no 2TB limit and no Tivo fees).


Does your HTPC support a tuning adapter?


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## Dan203

Bierboy said:


> I consider myself a heavy user, and I've NEVER had a conflict with four tuners. Since OTA networks are in such disarray with horrible programming, I have no need for more tuners. The cable nets re-broadcast everything...


But with 6 tuners you could pad everything and still never have a conflict. 

For me the 6 tuner would be useful if they offer user profiles because then me and my wife could share a single TiVo. Other then that I don't really need 6 tuners, but I'll probably still buy one just for the faster hardware.

As for pricing... Since all indications are pointing to there will no longer be a 2 tuner unit I'm betting the prices shift and the 4 tuner unit becomes the new entry level unit at around $150. However it sounds like the 6 tuner unit may be pretty high end, so there could be a bigger gap between it and the 4 tuner unit then there is now between the 2 and 4 tuner units.


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## Dan203

scole250 said:


> Does your HTPC support a tuning adapter?


Yes they do


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## shrike4242

Good to hear that waiting until the fall might be a good idea after all.

All of my four HD units have been replaced by PreXLs (3) or a PreXL4 (1), so my lone S3 has been soldiering on since 2007. It's been acting occasionally odd, so this fall seems like a good time to replace it.

If the Pre5 in one of the models to come out supports the Stream functionality built-in, it's an instant sell for me since I know Android compatibility has to be on the way soon. A 6-tuner box would work well for adding two Mini units with an assigned tuner apiece and still being able to record 4 programs at once. 

Certainly looking forward to these new units coming out, since the Pre/Pre4 is getting a little long in the tooth.


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## mr.unnatural

scole250 said:


> Does your HTPC support a tuning adapter?


Yes, I believe the Ceton InfiniTV4's do support tuning adapters. I'm not exactly sure about the SiliconDust HDHR Prime, but chances are it does as well. I'm on FIOS so it's a non-issue for me.

FWIW, just last night I checked my HTPC and it was recording six cable shows simultaneously. It occurred at the top of the hour so it was recording the overlap for six different shows, but it illustrates how six tuners can easily be necessary. The thing is, this is during the Summer season and my recording schedule during the Fall and Winter seasons and much more congested, requiring even more tuners on occasion. However, many of the shows being recorded at that time are network OTA programs so I'm using multiple ATSC tuners in addition to the cablecard tuners.



Bierboy said:


> I consider myself a heavy user, and I've NEVER had a conflict with four tuners. Since OTA networks are in such disarray with horrible programming, I have no need for more tuners. The cable nets re-broadcast everything...


If you're only using four tuners then you're a lightweight by comparison. I'm talking about some serious spud time in the Lazy Boy, not occasional viewing.


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## Dan203

I can't keep up with what I record on a 4 tuner unit. I don't think I'd ever have time for what you record on a 11 tuner box.


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## steve614

I'm not getting my hopes up. TiVo's past record suggests the new unit will not be out until April 2014.


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## morac

Dan203 said:


> I can't keep up with what I record on a 4 tuner unit. I don't think I'd ever have time for what you record on a 11 tuner box.


I don't do this, but there are some people who record entire seasons of shows without watching it and then watch the first episode and delete the rest if they don't like it.

Also more tuners equal less spousal arguments.


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## poofy

steve614 said:


> I'm not getting my hopes up. TiVo's past record suggests the new unit will not be out until April 2014.


I think so too. I would say at the earliest for April 2014!


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## mattack

Bierboy said:


> I consider myself a heavy user, and I've NEVER had a conflict with four tuners. Since OTA networks are in such disarray with horrible programming, I have no need for more tuners. The cable nets re-broadcast everything...


Do you ever need to add padding? While yes, they COULD do it better (i.e. 'share' the recordings when abutting recordings are on the same channel).. they currently don't (and I have no reason to believe they'll ever implement this)..

But if one needs padding, which I need on a LOT of shows I record, 4 tuners doesn't really mean "4 shows at once".. It can mean "2 shows then 2 shows, each needing padding on end/beginning". Heck, 4 tuners isn't enough for me to get the late night talk shows fully.. it only 'works' because I allow clipping on those -- so that I get full versions of the 11:35 shows. (I micromanage the to do list otherwise to manually reschedule things that otherwise would be clipped)


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## innocentfreak

morac said:


> I don't do this, but there are some people who record entire seasons of shows without watching it and then watch the first episode and delete the rest if they don't like it.


I do this. Anything that looks remotely good gets recorded. Occasionally I am wrong lol.


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## moyekj

I frequently need 5 tuners just for myself during prime time. Now my children are getting older they want more tuners for themselves too. A 6 tuner unit and more importantly anything faster than the current tortoise 4 tuner series 4 will be welcome starting from day 1 it is for sale from TiVo.


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## CoxInPHX

mr.unnatural said:


> Yes, I believe the Ceton InfiniTV4's do support tuning adapters. I'm not exactly sure about the SiliconDust HDHR Prime, but chances are it does as well. I'm on FIOS so it's a non-issue for me.


The SD HDHomeRun PRIME works very well with the Cisco TA. The TA is recognized and working in 3 minutes.

The Premiere takes over 15 minutes to recognize my Cisco TA. Hopefully new hardware will be faster at TA connection time.

I think moyekj said his Moto TA was much faster than the Cisco on the Premiere.


----------



## mr.unnatural

mattack said:


> Do you ever need to add padding? While yes, they COULD do it better (i.e. 'share' the recordings when abutting recordings are on the same channel).. they currently don't (and I have no reason to believe they'll ever implement this)..
> 
> But if one needs padding, which I need on a LOT of shows I record, 4 tuners doesn't really mean "4 shows at once".. It can mean "2 shows then 2 shows, each needing padding on end/beginning". Heck, 4 tuners isn't enough for me to get the late night talk shows fully.. it only 'works' because I allow clipping on those -- so that I get full versions of the 11:35 shows. (I micromanage the to do list otherwise to manually reschedule things that otherwise would be clipped)


This is exactly why I have so many tuners. Right now I have three HTPCs, two of which share the tuners from my 3-tuner HDHR Prime (cablecard) and 2-tuner HDHR Dual (OTA). My primary HTPC has two InfiniTV4's and two Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 ATSC tuners. The HDHR tuners get added into the mix automatically when I set up WMC, but they really don't get used by the primary HTPC. I manually configure each channel I record from to set the tuner priorities and the HDHR tuners get dropped to the bottom of the pecking order. They will never be called into service by the primary HTPC as a result. I could have limited myself to six cablecard tuners and four ATSC tuners, but Ceton hadn't come out with their 6-tuner model yet. I really don't need more tuners than that, but they're cheap insurance to avoid any potential conflicts and also allow me to pad recordings as I please.


----------



## NotNowChief

Is this still rumored to be out this fall?



Now accepting wagers for when we actually see the boxes, Fall '14?


----------



## bradleys

NotNowChief said:


> Is this still rumored to be out this fall?
> 
> 
> 
> Now accepting wagers for when we actually see the boxes, Fall '14?


What took you so long! I thought maybe you were on vacation or something... 

I would love to see something out for the holiday season - but I am not sure TiVo has all the approvals from the FCC so I think it is premature to "promise" any dates until that happens.

But yes, it would not suprise me to see a fall release slip to winter or spring depending on a lot of factors. I think it is also important to remember, TiVo has not publicly announced either a product or a date - This is all based on information gathered by Dave Zatz.


----------



## Richard Cranium

bradleys said:


> Dave Z has a good article on The Verge about the TiVo Series 5.
> 
> http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/17/4...eration-dvrs-with-new-remote-up-to-six-tuners
> 
> I am patiently waiting to upgrade!
> 
> Series 5 - 6 tuner unit + 3 TiVo MINis


More importantly, it's supposed to come with a new peanut remote!!!


----------



## csell

Not that anyone will truly know the answer, but do you think they will continue with the Digital Programming Only requirement that they started with the TiVo Premiere 4?


----------



## Dan203

Yes. They specifically petitioned the FCC to allow them to bypass the analog recording requirement. In fact for this generation they specifically asked to bypass the analog requirement of OTA as well. So, provided they get approval, the next gen box will be digital only for both cable and OTA.


----------



## Bigg

I just want DTA to bring my XL4 back up to 4 tuners. We've already hit conflicts with only 3 tuners online for the DVR.


----------



## sbiller

Bigg said:


> I just want DTA to bring my XL4 back up to 4 tuners. We've already hit conflicts with only 3 tuners online for the DVR.


FWIW, TiVo released the Elite on October 8, 2011. I'm looking for similar timing on the new boxes.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-10/quad-tuning-tivo-premiere-elite-available-1010/


----------



## innocentfreak

sbiller said:


> FWIW, TiVo released the Elite on October 8, 2011. I'm looking for similar timing on the new boxes.
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-10/quad-tuning-tivo-premiere-elite-available-1010/


Repeating myself 

I really hope TiVo moves quick on this once the FCC waiver goes through.

TiVo will have some serious competition for consumer dollars if they release in October.

If I could only buy one, I would keep my Elite and buy the console(s) first. TiVo will always be available so I can pick that up next year. If anything like with the Elite, waiting may get you a better deal if the price drops. I don't think it will this time around though since it is a new platform, but there is always the chance since sales never happen at launch.

I just hope they aren't expecting big numbers in the first quarter of sales. It could well be up to a year before those people buy since they will have just spent $460+ on hardware and games. Most aren't going to turn around and spend up to $1000 on TiVo.

Right Now the PS4 is rumored Oct 29-November 14th and the Xbox One is rumored the 21st of November.


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> FWIW, TiVo released the Elite on October 8, 2011. I'm looking for similar timing on the new boxes.


The goal would always to launch ahead of the holiday season and inline with Best Buy's shelf reset. They couldn't pull it off with the original Premiere... but it looks like they're further ahead and with hopefully with fewer issues this generation.


----------



## Dan203

Hopefully 3 1/2 years of experience programming for Adobe Air, coupled with better hardware, will give them a better chance at making this launch smooth. But I'm pretty sure the initial target for the Mini was suppose to be last Fall and it somehow slipped to March so who knows.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> Hopefully 3 1/2 years of experience programming for Adobe Air, coupled with better hardware, will give them a better chance at making this launch smooth. But I'm pretty sure the initial target for the Mini was suppose to be last Fall and it somehow slipped to March so who knows.


I believe TiVo is pushing for the FCC waiver request to be granted by July 15th so maybe we will see a release as early as August/September. That could, however, be related to purchase commitments for new hardware from their supplier.

I expect the Mini was a more significant software change compared to adding a couple of tuners, embedding Stream functionality, integrating WiFi, and dealing with an RF remote.

I expect the biggest challenge would be dynamic tuner allocation. I know at least one MSO that's currently deploying the Mini to all markets is pushing very hard for DTA this year.


----------



## morac

This has nothing to do with TiVo specifically, but the knowledge of 6 tuners boxes has even made it's way into comics:

http://www.gocomics.com/betty/2013/06/18


----------



## innocentfreak

Apparently Verizon is surveying some of their customers on various DVR options. Of course I didn't get the survey.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r28397467-DVR-Anyone-get-a-survey-about-DVR-options-

You have to love their hard drive space.

One person got an option for 12 tuners and 1TB while others got 12 and 2TB lol.


----------



## Bigg

sbiller said:


> I expect the biggest challenge would be dynamic tuner allocation. I know at least one MSO that's currently deploying the Mini to all markets is pushing very hard for DTA this year.


Hopefully that gets them moving on it. We're really going to need it come the fall, and for Sochi.



innocentfreak said:


> One person got an option for 12 tuners and 1TB while others got 12 and 2TB lol.


2TB isn't much on FIOS.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Bigg said:


> 2TB isn't much on FIOS.


Storage capacity is a direct relation to how you use your DVR. If you like to record a lot of shows and archive them you'll need a lot of storage. If you record shows, watch them within a reasonable time frame, and then delete them, you really don't need a lot of storage. I routinely record about 40-50 hours of shows per week during the regular season and generally watch what I record within 2-5 days after they're recorded. I only have a 1.5TB drive in my HTPC for recording and it rarely gets more than half full. I also use that drive for additional file storage so the actual space for recording is more in the neighborhood of about 1.2 TB.

Obviously, everyone's recording and viewing habits differ. Some people record fewer shows but like to hang onto them forever. Personally, I've always been a strong believer that a DVR is for recording, not long term storage. If you want to save shows indefinitely, offload them to a server or other storage facility where they're less likely to be lost in the event of a drive failure. DVR drives are running 24/7 and will have a much shorter lifespan than the average desktop drive.

BTW, I'm on FIOS.


----------



## sneagle

innocentfreak said:


> Apparently Verizon is surveying some of their customers on various DVR options. Of course I didn't get the survey.
> 
> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r28397467-DVR-Anyone-get-a-survey-about-DVR-options-
> 
> You have to love their hard drive space.
> 
> One person got an option for 12 tuners and 1TB while others got 12 and 2TB lol.


I got the survey. The biggest fault of the survey is not allowing me to say I have BOTH Tivo AND the Verizon DVR.


----------



## zalusky

mr.unnatural said:


> Storage capacity is a direct relation to how you use your DVR. If you like to record a lot of shows and archive them you'll need a lot of storage. If you record shows, watch them within a reasonable time frame, and then delete them, you really don't need a lot of storage. I routinely record about 40-50 hours of shows per week during the regular season and generally watch what I record within 2-5 days after they're recorded. I only have a 1.5TB drive in my HTPC for recording and it rarely gets more than half full. I also use that drive for additional file storage so the actual space for recording is more in the neighborhood of about 1.2 TB.
> 
> Obviously, everyone's recording and viewing habits differ. Some people record fewer shows but like to hang onto them forever. Personally, I've always been a strong believer that a DVR is for recording, not long term storage. If you want to save shows indefinitely, offload them to a server or other storage facility where they're less likely to be lost in the event of a drive failure. DVR drives are running 24/7 and will have a much shorter lifespan than the average desktop drive.
> 
> BTW, I'm on FIOS.


I have to agree with this. I think personal libraries are a fading concept.
I used to buy a lot of books. I don't any more and haven't really cracked any of them in years. The computer books especially are out of date.

I used to buy tons of DVDs. They all sit in a drawer now.

With Cable, OnDemand, and Netflix there is so much new stuff that I rarely have time to watch something old - let alone want to keep a seasons worth of something beyond the first viewing.

If I really wanted to watch something that could have been in my library. I just go get it from Netflix or the equivalent.

I really just think of my DVR has a short term delivery vehicle.


----------



## Bierboy

mattack said:


> ...But if one needs padding, which I need on a LOT of shows I record, 4 tuners doesn't really mean "4 shows at once".. It can mean "2 shows then 2 shows, each needing padding on end/beginning"....


I've had the four-tuner since December, and I can count on one hand the number of times all four have been recording simultaneously...

...now, granted, we are a two-person family and my wife has her own TiVo, so our needs aren't as demanding with those who still have young 'uns at home...


----------



## Richard Cranium

sbiller said:


> FWIW, TiVo released the Elite on October 8, 2011. I'm looking for similar timing on the new boxes.


Why? What does one have to do with the other?


----------



## mr.unnatural

Bierboy said:


> I've had the four-tuner since December, and I can count on one hand the number of times all four have been recording simultaneously...
> 
> ...now, granted, we are a two-person family and my wife has her own TiVo, so our needs aren't as demanding with those who still have young 'uns at home...


I'm the only person in my household that records shows and I routinely have six or more tuners going at the same time. It all depends on your viewing and recording habits. Some people are hardcore couch potatoes like me while others are only casual viewers. A lot of people could get away with a single tuner DVR while others can never have enough tuners.


----------



## Dan203

Cable channels tend to repeat everything, and there are only 5 or 6 broadcast channels in most areas, so the average cable user doesn't actually need more then 6 tuners.


----------



## Bierboy

Dan203 said:


> Cable channels tend to repeat everything, and there are only 5 or 6 broadcast channels in most areas, so the average cable user doesn't actually need more then 6 tuners.


Um.....that's exactly what I said here.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Dan203 said:


> Cable channels tend to repeat everything, and there are only 5 or 6 broadcast channels in most areas, so the average cable user doesn't actually need more then 6 tuners.


Counting available sideband channels, I have well over 40 OTA broadcast channels in my area (I'm between Baltimore and D.C.). I've got duplicate channels for ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, and the CW as well as at least five PBS channels and about a dozen ethnic channels and a few independents thrown into the mix. I limit most of my recording to the five main channels with an occasional PBS broadcast. Once in a while I'll see an old TV show broadcast on one of the side channels I'd like to watch, but they're usually in standard definition. Just about all of these channels are also available on FIOS, but I prefer to record from OTA because it's a slightly better picture. Otherwise, I'd probably need even more cablecard tuners than I already have.


----------



## Dan203

mr.unnatural said:


> Counting available sideband channels, I have well over 40 OTA broadcast channels in my area (I'm between Baltimore and D.C.). I've got duplicate channels for ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, and the CW as well as at least five PBS channels and about a dozen ethnic channels and a few independents thrown into the mix. I limit most of my recording to the five main channels with an occasional PBS broadcast. Once in a while I'll see an old TV show broadcast on one of the side channels I'd like to watch, but they're usually in standard definition. Just about all of these channels are also available on FIOS, but I prefer to record from OTA because it's a slightly better picture. Otherwise, I'd probably need even more cablecard tuners than I already have.


You specifically say you limit your recordings to the 5 major networks, with an occasional recording from PBS or a sideband channel. So why would you need more then 6 tuners? Are you padding everything and creating conflicts that way?

With only 5 major networks, and everything on cable being repeated adnasium, I can't see why anyone would ever need more the 6 tuners. Maybe a family who all want to watch live TV via Minis in seperate rooms, but for one person recording, even a serious couch potato, it seems like 6 is the magic number.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Dan203 said:


> You specifically say you limit your recordings to the 5 major networks, with an occasional recording from PBS or a sideband channel. So why would you need more then 6 tuners? Are you padding everything and creating conflicts that way?
> 
> With only 5 major networks, and everything on cable being repeated adnasium, I can't see why anyone would ever need more the 6 tuners. Maybe a family who all want to watch live TV via Minis in seperate rooms, but for one person recording, even a serious couch potato, it seems like 6 is the magic number.


The comment was with regard to available OTA channels in my area. I also record from at least a half dozen or so cable network channels, like SyFy, USA, FX, TNT, AMC, A&E, etc., so I may have more than six tuners in use at any given time. Six of each type is the real magic number since I record from two different sources. I could probably get by with only four ATSC tuners, but the extra ones are just cheap insurance. Of the 17 tuners I have available, five of them are shared with other PCs and are rarely used by the primary HTPC.

I have my series recordings (aka season passes) set up primarily for new recordings only, so any show that airs beyond the original air date is considered a repeat. However, if something happens and the show can't be recorded in the initial time slot, WMC will reschedule it automatically and pick it up when it airs again. And yes, I do pad every single recording. With a sufficient number of tuners, there are no conflicts. The number of tuners I have may be considered overkill by some, but I can say with a high degree of confidence that I will never miss a recording due to a lack of available tuners. Making the same claim just using Tivos would require a considerably higher monetary investment. Of course, you'd have to purchase older model Tivos to get OTA recording capability since Tivo has seen fit to eliminate that function from current models.

I'm the only one that watches and records from the primary HTPC. The wife uses a set top box in the bedroom and a small HTPC in the family room that uses a SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime for a TV signal. Both my kids are out of college and living on their own so it's just the two of us.


----------



## slowbiscuit

I have a 4-tuner Elite and never miss a recording due to lack of tuners. And I pad pretty much every recording too. But I'm with Bierboy here, just me and the wifey watching shows so the box rarely has all 4 red lights on. 17 tuners is beyond overkill for two people because you can't possibly watch all that crap IMO, but to each his own.


----------



## Bigg

mr.unnatural said:


> Storage capacity is a direct relation to how you use your DVR. If you like to record a lot of shows and archive them you'll need a lot of storage. If you record shows, watch them within a reasonable time frame, and then delete them, you really don't need a lot of storage. I routinely record about 40-50 hours of shows per week during the regular season and generally watch what I record within 2-5 days after they're recorded. I only have a 1.5TB drive in my HTPC for recording and it rarely gets more than half full. I also use that drive for additional file storage so the actual space for recording is more in the neighborhood of about 1.2 TB.
> 
> Obviously, everyone's recording and viewing habits differ. Some people record fewer shows but like to hang onto them forever. Personally, I've always been a strong believer that a DVR is for recording, not long term storage. If you want to save shows indefinitely, offload them to a server or other storage facility where they're less likely to be lost in the event of a drive failure. DVR drives are running 24/7 and will have a much shorter lifespan than the average desktop drive.
> 
> BTW, I'm on FIOS.


That's an excellent point. I do find, however, that even with relatively short-term viewing, stuff can accumulate pretty quick, although it's also usually pretty easy to delete stuff as well that's no longer relevant or whatever.

The one time that I find disk space is in need in a really big way is during the Olympics, where there are hundreds upon hundreds of hours of content, and it's nice to have it all to DVR through fast and catch bits and pieces of different sports.



Dan203 said:


> Cable channels tend to repeat everything, and there are only 5 or 6 broadcast channels in most areas, so the average cable user doesn't actually need more then 6 tuners.


I'd agree that the average TiVo user doesn't need more than 6 (maybe even 4) tuners. However, I would also say that TiVo sucks at getting the repeats. If you have a show at lower priority on a cable channel that doesn't have a tuner to record, TiVo is too dumb to pick up the second showing at midnight or whatever.



mr.unnatural said:


> Both my kids are out of college and living on their own so it's just the two of us.


That's an extreme usage scenario.


----------



## innocentfreak

Bigg said:


> I'd agree that the average TiVo user doesn't need more than 6 (maybe even 4) tuners. However, I would also say that TiVo sucks at getting the repeats. If you have a show at lower priority on a cable channel that doesn't have a tuner to record, TiVo is too dumb to pick up the second showing at midnight or whatever.


What are you talking about? Mine picks up the midnight repeats constantly.


----------



## SullyND

Isn't the point of six tuners to support their whole home initiative? 6 tuners isn't a ton if you have two or more minis tying them up.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

innocentfreak said:


> What are you talking about? Mine picks up the midnight repeats constantly.


Yeah, I can't ever recall a case of this happening...


----------



## lpwcomp

innocentfreak said:


> What are you talking about? Mine picks up the midnight repeats constantly.


Same here.

edit:
From my THD todo list:



Code:


Mon 06/24/13 11:59 PM	 Warehouse 13 [Ep 419] - Lost & Found	 874=SYFYHD	 1:01

I have an FRO SP for "Warehouse 13" and there is a conflict with higher priority items for the initial 10PM showing.

There *is* some stupidity in evidence here, but it isn't with the TiVo scheduler.


----------



## Dan203

SullyND said:


> Isn't the point of six tuners to support their whole home initiative? 6 tuners isn't a ton if you have two or more minis tying them up.


Hopefully by the time the 6 tuner unit hits they will also have the software ready for dynamic tuner allocation for the Mini, so you wont have to actually dedicate a tuner for each Mini. If that's the case then all 6 tuners would be available for recording as long as a Mini wasn't actively being used to watch live TV. That's the ultimate setup that should appease all but the most hard core users.


----------



## bobfrank

The only problem I see with that is what happens if all 6 tuners are recording and someone tries to watch a live program on the mini.

Bob


----------



## Dan203

I assume it will work like it does now and prompt them to either keep recording or cancel the recording to watch live TV. That's what would happen if you tried to change the live Tv channel on the TiVo itself.


----------



## lpwcomp

Couldn't you sort of "fake" it now by not allocating any tuners to the mini and simply start a recording and stream it if you want to watch something.


----------



## Dan203

Yes you could. That's how the Stream does "live TV".


----------



## Bierboy

innocentfreak said:


> What are you talking about? Mine picks up the midnight repeats constantly.


Me three...


----------



## sneagle

When will the conjecture end and TiVo announce--thus ending this round of arguing but starting the next round of complaints??


----------



## Dan203

Not until the FCC approves thier request. Even then probably not until it's actually available because they don't want to hurt sales of current units.


----------



## mr.unnatural

slowbiscuit said:


> I have a 4-tuner Elite and never miss a recording due to lack of tuners. And I pad pretty much every recording too. But I'm with Bierboy here, just me and the wifey watching shows so the box rarely has all 4 red lights on. 17 tuners is beyond overkill for two people because you can't possibly watch all that crap IMO, but to each his own.


The number of tuners required is whatever the user deems necessary to satisfy their viewing habits. There is no set number of tuners that is ideal for everyone, but if you only need two or four then you're all set. Not that I have to justify the number of tuners I have, all 17 tuners are available to a single PC, but all of them are not used by that PC. The five HDHR tuners are shared with other PCs. I wouldn't even have the HDHR tuners in the mix for the main HTPC, but it's more trouble than it's worth to have to disconnect them when I run WMC setup for the TV signal so they are included by default. Of the remaining eight cablecard tuners installed in the HTPC, I generally only use six of them at any given time.

The InfiniTV4 was the only PCI-e cablecard tuner available so I needed two of them to meet my minimum requirement of six. I didn't have the option to get only six PCI-e tuners of this type. All four of the ATSC tuners get used quite frequently so out of the twelve tuners installed in the HTPC, at least ten of them are put into service on a regular basis. Hardly what I would consider overkill in light of the way they're being used.

FWIW, I _do_ watch everything I record as well as several shows I download from the internet, and once in a while I even get to sneak in a movie or two.

And finally, I have 17 tuners because I can. Suck it.


----------



## rogmatic

I am really curious about what mr. unnatural does for a living.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Bigg said:


> I'd agree that the average TiVo user doesn't need more than 6 (maybe even 4) tuners. However, I would also say that TiVo sucks at getting the repeats. If you have a show at lower priority on a cable channel that doesn't have a tuner to record, TiVo is too dumb to pick up the second showing at midnight or whatever.


Completely false, and if you order your SPs correctly with cable channels always lower than network you'll find that 4 tuners is usually plenty, because Tivo will always pick up a later cable showing.

I sometimes wonder if you actually use any DVR.


----------



## mr.unnatural

rogmatic said:


> I am really curious about what mr. unnatural does for a living.


I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you. 

I have a full time job just like most of you. I also play pool in a league two nights a week. On the weekends I do the yard work and any other tasks that need doing (although my wife claims I don't finish most of them). I spent all last summer putting a new roof on my 2-story house which included removing about three dozen sheets of plywood and replacing them, not to mention having to fix a lot of dry rot on some of the trusses and other structural areas. I had to completely tear out a hip roof over the master bedroom to get to some of the damaged areas. The entire job took about 10 weeks and I used about 65 bundles of shingles that I had to hand carry up a ladder. FWIW, I did the entire job solo. I just celebrated my 62nd birthday last January.

I think I deserve a little TV time, don't you.


----------



## lessd

mr.unnatural said:


> I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you.
> 
> I have a full time job just like most of you. I also play pool in a league two nights a week. On the weekends I do the yard work and any other tasks that need doing (although my wife claims I don't finish most of them). I spent all last summer putting a new roof on my 2-story house which included removing about three dozen sheets of plywood and replacing them, not to mention having to fix a lot of dry rot on some of the trusses and other structural areas. I had to completely tear out a hip roof over the master bedroom to get to some of the damaged areas. The entire job took about 10 weeks and I used about 65 bundles of shingles that I had to hand carry up a ladder. FWIW, I did the entire job solo. I just celebrated my 62nd birthday last January.
> 
> I think I deserve a little TV time, don't you.


You should not have to prove anything to anybody on this forum, this forum is for information about TiVo and how to use it and solve problems, not about how many TiVo tuners or hours of TV watching anybody wants/needs/does.


----------



## slowbiscuit

mr.unnatural said:


> And finally, I have 17 tuners because I can. Suck it.


Yeah ok, good thing you're on FIOS because the card charges here on Comcast would be way too expensive for that kind of overkill. Not to mention tuner purchase cost, heat and power use, etc.


----------



## lpwcomp

slowbiscuit said:


> Yeah ok, good thing you're on FIOS because the card charges here on Comcast would be way too expensive for that kind of overkill.


*Theoretically* not true, even if all of the tuners are cable tuners. If you say that the HTPC is one device and it is the only device you have, all you _*should*_ pay is $3-$5/month for 2 "additional cards in the same device". Minus the "Customer owned equipment credit".


----------



## Dan203

mr.unnatural said:


> I also play pool in a league two nights a week.


I'm a pool player too. Do you play APA or a local league? (I'm a 6 in the APA)


----------



## mr.unnatural

Dan203 said:


> I'm a pool player too. Do you play APA or a local league? (I'm a 6 in the APA)


APA. I fluctuate between a 4 and a 5 in 8-ball (currently a 4) and I'm a 5 in 9-ball. I currently play in two 8-ball divisions and one 9-ball. I play in both the Maryland Area, which happens to be the largest APA league in the country, and the Greater Washington D.C. area leagues.



lessd said:


> You should not have to prove anything to anybody on this forum, this forum is for information about TiVo and how to use it and solve problems, not about how many TiVo tuners or hours of TV watching anybody wants/needs/does.


Not trying to prove anything. Someone asked what I do for a living and I responded. I also wanted to point out that I do other things besides watch TV.



slowbiscuit said:


> Yeah ok, good thing you're on FIOS because the card charges here on Comcast would be way too expensive for that kind of overkill. Not to mention tuner purchase cost, heat and power use, etc.


I pay for just three cablecards @ $3.99 apiece. Tuners are much cheaper than Tivos and probably use much less power than an entire Tivo. It's cheap to add tuners to a HTPC so why not do it? Heat really isn't an issue with proper ventilation.

Again with the overkill.  If you read what I said about it previously you'll clearly see that it's anything but overkill. It all depends on how you use the tuners, and I use just about all of them. There are lots of people here with multiple Tivos and I'm sure they don't see it as overkill.


----------



## ort

Is there any chance the new TiVos won't need SDV boxes?


----------



## SullyND

ort said:


> Is there any chance the new TiVos won't need SDV boxes?


Only in areas that don't require SDV. There is no standard for SDV that TiVo could adopt.


----------



## lpwcomp

ort said:


> Is there any chance the new TiVos won't need SDV boxes?


Highly doubtful since there is no real standard. Personally, I hope not since it would be additional cost for something I don't need. I feel the same way about built-in wireless.


----------



## aaronwt

davezatz said:


> Yeah, so I'm hearing there's a possibility of two versions - one with that 3TB drive you mention ("XL" ?). Also sounds like WiFi could be in the mix, but I'm waiting for more intel on that point and I'd rather use my MoCA.


This is just what I would need to replace my two Premiere Elites. although 4TB would be even better.

EDIT: Although six tuners for me is the bare minimum. I would need dynamic tuner allocation. And that is without any padding. If I started padding shows I would need two of these new six tuner boxes. But my plan is to get down to one cable card. If i can sell both of my lifetime Elites to cover the cost of a Lifetime six tuner box(with extended warranty) with 3TB of storage(and built in stream capabilities) I will be exremely pleased.


----------



## Dan203

mr.unnatural said:


> APA. I fluctuate between a 4 and a 5 in 8-ball (currently a 4) and I'm a 5 in 9-ball. I currently play in two 8-ball divisions and one 9-ball. I play in both the Maryland Area, which happens to be the largest APA league in the country, and the Greater Washington D.C. area leagues.


I use to play 4 nights a week between APA and local leagues. Kind of burnt myself out so now I'm down to 1 night a week. (tonight) Although I may play 9 ball again in the fall. (I'm an 8 in 9 ball)

Ok back to the topic at hand.


----------



## innocentfreak

Hopefully if it takes 3TB, you can upgrade to 4TB. 

Of course if they allowed you to use the Stream to transfer to the PC while transcoding on the fly, you could just push the smaller format back.


----------



## Dan203

FYI you don't have to "push" H.264 any more. We discovered a way to use TS files to pull H.264 to a Premiere without transcoding. The latest version of pyTiVo has code that will detect H.264 and automatically remux to the proper TS format without recoding. So you can now pull H.264 files to your TiVo just like you would an MPEG-2 file and it will be left as-is size/quality wise.


----------



## aaronwt

innocentfreak said:


> Repeating myself
> 
> I really hope TiVo moves quick on this once the FCC waiver goes through.
> 
> TiVo will have some serious competition for consumer dollars if they release in October.
> 
> If I could only buy one, I would keep my Elite and buy the console(s) first. TiVo will always be available so I can pick that up next year. If anything like with the Elite, waiting may get you a better deal if the price drops. I don't think it will this time around though since it is a new platform, but there is always the chance since sales never happen at launch.
> 
> I just hope they aren't expecting big numbers in the first quarter of sales. It could well be up to a year before those people buy since they will have just spent $460+ on hardware and games. Most aren't going to turn around and spend up to $1000 on TiVo.
> 
> Right Now the PS4 is rumored Oct 29-November 14th and the Xbox One is rumored the 21st of November.


The six TiVo is my top priority, with the XBOne second, and the PS4 third. I will get the first two this year but only the PS4 this year if a PS3 and Xbox360 trade in will cover the cost of a PS4.

Plus if I go the BestBuy route, like I did with the Elite, I should be able to get a least 18 months no interest financing, plus a 4 year extended warranty on the six tuner TiVo.


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> Hopefully that gets them moving on it. We're really going to need it come the fall, and for Sochi.
> 
> 2TB isn't much on FIOS.


It will be if they start switching to H.264.


----------



## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> The six TiVo is my top priority, with the XBOne second, and the PS4 third. I will get the first two this year but only the PS4 this year if a PS3 and Xbox360 trade in will cover the cost of a PS4.
> 
> Plus if I go the BestBuy route, like I did with the Elite, I should be able to get a least 18 months no interest financing, plus a 4 year extended warranty on the six tuner TiVo.


May want to read the new Reward Zone rules if you care about the points. You can get the points or 0% but not both.

They just announced this when they announced going forward points no longer expire.


----------



## innocentfreak

Dan203 said:


> FYI you don't have to "push" H.264 any more. We discovered a way to use TS files to pull H.264 to a Premiere without transcoding. The latest version of pyTiVo has code that will detect H.264 and automatically remux to the proper TS format without recoding. So you can now pull H.264 files to your TiVo just like you would an MPEG-2 file and it will be left as-is size/quality wise.


I was more referring to push just as a way to send the content back, not necessarily due to the format, but good to know.

I was just thinking of the autopush functionality.


----------



## aaronwt

innocentfreak said:


> May want to read the new Reward Zone rules if you care about the points. You can get the points or 0% but not both.
> 
> They just announced this when they announced going forward points no longer expire.


Well that sucks. I did read something but I never looked at it too closely. I hope they at least keep the 60 day return policy. Since without reward zone silver the return policy is only 14 days now. Or did they change that too?

EDIT: I wonder if you can get around the financing and points issue buy getting gift cards with the financing and then using the gift cards for the purchase of the item?


----------



## brewman

FWIW, Tivo is running a sale through 6/28 on the Premier with lifetime service. 
- $449 : Premier 500 GB w/ Lifetime
- $549 : Premier 4 w/ Lifetime
- $699 : Premiere XL4 w/ Lifetiime

Sure seems like they're clearing inventory for a new product line.


----------



## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> Well that sucks. I did read something but I never looked at it too closely. I hope they at least keep the 60 day return policy. Since without reward zone silver the return policy is only 14 days now. Or did they change that too?
> 
> EDIT: I wonder if you can get around the financing and points issue buy getting gift cards with the financing and then using the gift cards for the purchase of the item?


Gift cards used towards a purchase don't get any points. They figure you got points by buying the giftcards.

I believe they kept the 60 day.


----------



## Bigg

innocentfreak said:


> What are you talking about? Mine picks up the midnight repeats constantly.


Interesting. Mine doesn't, at least the one time I tried it. I just ended up making a manual recording for the midnight repeat.



rogmatic said:


> I am really curious about what mr. unnatural does for a living.


LOL. Same here.



slowbiscuit said:


> Completely false, and if you order your SPs correctly with cable channels always lower than network you'll find that 4 tuners is usually plenty, because Tivo will always pick up a later cable showing.
> 
> I sometimes wonder if you actually use any DVR.


Mine did not pick up the repeat. I stand corrected in general, but in the case that I saw, it DID NOT pick up the repeat.


----------



## Dan203

Bigg said:


> Interesting. Mine doesn't, at least the one time I tried it. I just ended up making a manual recording for the midnight repeat.


It should. Only two things would trigger this behavior. 1) If the same episode had been recorded in the last 28 days. 2) The original air date is more then 2 weeks prior to the current date.

I had a problem once with it not recording an Showtime show and when I looked at the data I saw that even though the episodes were new all the data had an original air date of a couple months prior so TiVo thought it was old. Like everything on TiVo it depends on good data. Without good data the whole system can be unpredictable.


----------



## tomhorsley

I don't suppose there is any chance new DVRs will have at least gigabit ethernet is there? It would be nice to take less than 20 minutes to download a recorded show.


----------



## Dan203

The slowness when transferring to a PC is caused by the CPU not the network speed. When you download a show to a PC TiVo applies encryption to the stream on the fly. This process requires CPU cycles to accomplish. In the past every new generation of TiVo has seen a bump in transfer speeds because they also go a CPU bump. This next generation shouldn't be any exception.


----------



## Philmatic

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I don't think Tivo would bother with an OTA-dedicated box. The market isn't big enough. Plus with analog support removed, that makes it easier to make a combined cable/OTA box.
> 
> The Premiere and XL launched at $300 and $500. The Elite/XL4 also launched at $500. I'm using those points as my guide.
> 
> - $300 4-tuner Cable/OTA
> - $400 6-tuner Cable
> - $500 6-tuner Cable XL6
> 
> All before Lifetime or theoretical launch upgrade offers.
> 
> The current platform officially EOL's and they probably all drop in price to between $100 and $300 to dump supply. Analog support will EOL too, so if anyone needs analog get a discounted Premiere during an inevitable sale over the summer while you still can.


I agree with everything you said, from the three specific boxes to the tuner configurations and prices.

Also, for people who say 6 tuners are overkill. The implementation of the TiVo Mini without dynamic tuner allocation essentially wastes any extra tuners. It barely breaks even.

6 tuner digital cable DVR with beefier processor and (hopefully) built in stream will be what I've waited for since I first bought my Premier on launch day. Paying $800 for one of those boxes is a no brainer considering how long TiVo wait to iterate.


----------



## sbiller

Philmatic said:


> I agree with everything you said, from the three specific boxes to the tuner configurations and prices.
> 
> Also, for people who say 6 tuners are overkill. The implementation of the TiVo Mini without dynamic tuner allocation essentially wastes any extra tuners. It barely breaks even.
> 
> 6 tuner digital cable DVR with beefier processor and (hopefully) built in stream will be what I've waited for since I first bought my Premier on launch day. Paying $800 for one of those boxes is a no brainer considering how long TiVo wait to iterate.


I would be surprised if TiVo raises the entry point for their service to $300. They are currently selling the Premiere 4 + Mini Bundle for $270.

I'm expecting the new 4-tuner to start at a subsidized $249 with a 500 GB drive. A 4-tuner with a larger drive for $350. 6 tuner with built-in Stream for $400 and larger drive for $500.


----------



## Dan203

I think they may even lower the price for the 4 tuner to get the price of entry down to where the current 2 tuner box is. TiVo still needs to compete with cable DVRs. If their cheapest box is $250 + service I think that will turn a lot of people away. I'm betting it's in the $150-175 range.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> I think they may even lower the price for the 4 tuner to get the price of entry down to where the current 2 tuner box is. TiVo still needs to compete with cable DVRs. If their cheapest box is $250 + service I think that will turn a lot of people away. I'm betting it's in the $150-175 range.


I hope you are right and agree with you. Perhaps they figured out a way to lower the cost of the 4-tuner box. They've figured out how to make the Mini for a subsidized $99 so perhaps they can make the 4-tuner for a subsidized $149. IMHO, a 4-tuner with built-in WiFi and NextGen performance for $149 + service would sell very well.

Does everyone expect them to keep the Premiere name?


----------



## Dan203

I did initially, but now I'm not sure. If they were just adding a 6 tuner unit then a Premiere XL6 wouldn't conflict with the current line. But if they also have a 4 tuner then they almost have to change the name to avoid confusion. Maybe they'll call it Premiere Next, or something like that.


----------



## aaronwt

Or the TiVo One or TiVo 5.


----------



## sbiller

aaronwt said:


> Or the TiVo One or TiVo 5.


I was thinking they could leave the name of the 4-tuner alone and rename the 6-tuner with built-in Stream the *TiVo One*.

I wouldn't be against renaming the 4-tuner as well since it supposedly has built-in WiFi and additional functionality.

I do see the confusion element so maybe it should be the Premiere 4S, Premiere XL4S, Premiere 6, and Premiere XL6...


----------



## innocentfreak

sbiller said:


> I hope you are right and agree with you. Perhaps they figured out a way to lower the cost of the 4-tuner box. They've figured out how to make the Mini for a subsidized $99 so perhaps they can make the 4-tuner for a subsidized $149. IMHO, a 4-tuner with built-in WiFi and NextGen performance for $149 + service would sell very well.
> 
> Does everyone expect them to keep the Premiere name?





Dan203 said:


> I did initially, but now I'm not sure. If they were just adding a 6 tuner unit then a Premiere XL6 wouldn't conflict with the current line. But if they also have a 4 tuner then they almost have to change the name to avoid confusion. Maybe they'll call it Premiere Next, or something like that.


What if they offer a stripped version of the 4 tuner? Drop the WiFi so it is only on the XL version and 6 tuner models. Or on the stripped version include wifi but drop OTA. 500gb drives have probably fallen even more so they should be able to get a $199 pricepoint at least.


----------



## Dan203

innocentfreak said:


> What if they offer a stripped version of the 4 tuner? Drop the WiFi so it is only on the XL version and 6 tuner models. Or on the stripped version include wifi but drop OTA. 500gb drives have probably fallen even more so they should be able to get a $199 pricepoint at least.


I think stripping things like that might actually cost more. When you strip things like that you have to do a whole separate production run. When all they do is vary the HDD size it's something that can be adjusted for during the assembly process.


----------



## mr_smits

I hope at least one Series 5 box has OTA and cable combo support (4 tuners each would be ideal). I'm OTA right now, but that may change in the future. I'd hate to buy a product that doesn't give me the flexibility to change my mind.


----------



## lpwcomp

innocentfreak said:


> What if they offer a stripped version of the 4 tuner? Drop the WiFi so it is only on the XL version and 6 tuner models. Or on the stripped version include wifi but drop OTA. 500gb drives have probably fallen even more so they should be able to get a $199 pricepoint at least.


If you drop OTA, you would have a Premiere 4 with built-in wi-fi. I doubt there is a huge market for that.


----------



## Dan203

mr_smits said:


> I hope at least one Series 5 box has OTA and cable combo support (4 tuners each would be ideal). I'm OTA right now, but that may change in the future. I'd hate to buy a product that doesn't give me the flexibility to change my mind.


I'm pretty sure that's the plan. At least based on the FCC filings.


----------



## innocentfreak

lpwcomp said:


> If you drop OTA, you would have a Premiere 4 with built-in wi-fi. I doubt there is a huge market for that.


Correct which would be replacing the outgoing Premiere 4 and allow them a starting unit at $199. For those that want OTA they then have a Premiere 4 with OTA at $249-$299.

Also the cable companies who opt for the 4 tuner model wouldn't need the ones with OTA.


----------



## bradleys

innocentfreak said:


> Correct which would be replacing the outgoing Premiere 4 and allow them a starting unit at $199. For those that want OTA they then have a Premiere 4 with OTA at $249-$299.
> 
> Also the cable companies who opt for the 4 tuner model wouldn't need the ones with OTA.


Which goes back to my original estimates:

P5 - 4 Tuner Cable only @ $199
P5 - 4 Tuner Cable w/OTA @ $249
P5 - 6 Tuner Cable only @ $349
P5 - 6 Tuner XL Cable only @ $449 (with built in stream)


----------



## Dan203

I don't think there are going to be separate 4 tuner units, one with and one without OTA. Right now they have two hardware platforms, the 2 tuner and the 4 tuner. For the next gen I expect the same thing but 4 tuner and 6 tuner. Creating a bunch of variants not only increases production costs (they have minimum runs for each unit) but it creates customer confusion. It would be better if they can figure out a way to manufacture a unit with cable and OTA cheap enough that it can be the entry level unit.

As for their MSO partners... They use the 2 tuner Premier now, which supports OTA, and have no problem with it so I don't think they would care if the new unit also supported OTA. And if they did TiVo could always offer them the option to disable OTA via software.


----------



## atmuscarella

So does anyone want to speculate on what tuners/demodulators these new DVRs might be using? Any difference between what is available for OTA versus cable?


----------



## lessd

atmuscarella said:


> So does anyone want to speculate on what tuners/demodulators these new DVRs might be using? Any difference between what is available for OTA versus cable?


Comcast (in CT) is going all scramble all channels starting in July, I would expect most cable co will do the same over time, so my question can a TiVo tuner be made less expensive if it will only work with a M cable card?


----------



## bradleys

Dan203 said:


> I don't think there are going to be separate 4 tuner units, one with and one without OTA.


Possibly, I suppose it will depend on how much the OTA tuners add to the base costs of the unit. I suspect they are going to want to keep a entry level unit at $200... That seems to be a sweet spot for TiVo.

If they can get OTA into a 4 tuner box @ that price point then you may be correct. If they cannot, then I see a market for separating the products.

I do think the prospect of only including the Stream functionality in the XL version makes sense. (even though it is likely only a software update)


----------



## bradleys

lessd said:


> Comcast (in CT) is going all scramble all channels starting in July, I would expect most cable co will do the same over time, so my question can a TiVo tuner be made less expensive if it will only work with a M cable card?


Help me out on this Lessd...

How does that differ from today? My TiVo currently works with an M Cable Card...


----------



## lpwcomp

lessd said:


> Comcast (in CT) is going all scramble all channels starting in July, I would expect most cable co will do the same over time, so my question can a TiVo tuner be made less expensive if it will only work with a M cable card?


I seriously doubt it.


----------



## Philmatic

He's talking about removing ClearQAM. I would say the possibility of such a removal is slim-to-none. The perceived cost savings would be offset by losing functionality that a large swath of the country can still use.


----------



## Dan203

bradleys said:


> I do think the prospect of only including the Stream functionality in the XL version makes sense. (even though it is likely only a software update)


I'm not sure if they'll limit that functionality to just the XL unit. I think that the very least it will be supported by all 6 tuner units, and maybe all units. If the chipset they're using supports it then I don't think they would disable it via software just to bolster the features of the more expensive XL unit. Although there are a few variants of the Broadcom chipset in the same family, some that have transcoding and some that don't, so I could see them using a cheaper one, that doesn't do transocding, for the 4 tuner and a more expensive one that does for the 6 tuner. So it could be a 6 tuner only feature.

If it is supported by all units then the standalone Stream is going to be short lived. They might keep it around for a little while to support older units, but if all new units have the capability built in then sales of the standalone unit are going to fall off a cliff.


----------



## Dan203

Philmatic said:


> He's talking about removing ClearQAM. I would say the possibility of such a removal is slim-to-none. The perceived cost savings would be offset by losing functionality that a large swath of the country can still use.


QAM is QAM. The only difference between ClearQAM and encrypted QAM is a flag in the stream that marks it as encrypted. It's not like they use separate chips or anything. The only way they could "remove" ClearQAM is via some sort of software patch, which would cost them money not save them any. Plus it's not like they really support ClearQAM now. The tuner can pick it up but they don't assign any guide data to it. So unless you have a CableCARD it's basically useless anyway.


----------



## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> QAM is QAM.


In this same vane aren't digital OTA and digital Cable tuners the same? With the difference being the demodulator? I thought the Premiere only had 2 tuners that were the same but 2 different demodulators. Anyone want to explain this a little more?


----------



## lpwcomp

Philmatic said:


> He's talking about removing ClearQAM. I would say the possibility of such a removal is slim-to-none. The perceived cost savings would be offset by losing functionality that a large swath of the country can still use.


While I doubt there would be any cost savings, I also doubt there are many people actually utilizing clear QAM on TiVo. The lack of guide data sorta puts a damper on the whole experience.


----------



## Philmatic

Dan203 said:


> QAM is QAM. The only difference between ClearQAM and encrypted QAM is a flag in the stream that marks it as encrypted. It's not like they use separate chips or anything. The only way they could "remove" ClearQAM is via some sort of software patch, which would cost them money not save them any. Plus it's not like they really support ClearQAM now. The tuner can pick it up but they don't assign any guide data to it. So unless you have a CableCARD it's basically useless anyway.


Makes sense.



atmuscarella said:


> In this same vane aren't digital OTA and digital Cable tuners the same? With the difference being the demodulator? I thought the Premiere only had 2 tuners that were the same but 2 different demodulators. Anyone want to explain this a little more?


No, Digital OTA is ATSC and Digital Cable is QAM. Totally different tuning technologies. Although some of the newer chips integrate some of the shared pieces, but for the most part they remain independent.

You may be right in that the physical tuner is independent of the intended signal, but in the TiVo they are hardwired to go to specific chips for demodulation and decoding. Or in the case of Analog NTSC, encoding to MPEG 2.

The original Premiere had 4 physical tuners (2 QAM and 2 ATSC/NTSC) but 6 logical ones, 2 NTSC, 2 ATSC, 2 QAM. They could be used in any combination of two max.

The digital cable only Premieres that came later got rid of the 4 OTA tuners (ATSC/NTSC) and bumped up the QAM tuners to 4 with the possibility of tuning those 4 simultaneously.

Disclaimer: I am not an hardware or broadcast engineer, my knowledge on the chip layout in tuning configurations is not authoritative.


----------



## aaronwt

sbiller said:


> I was thinking they could leave the name of the 4-tuner alone and rename the 6-tuner with built-in Stream the *TiVo One*.
> 
> I wouldn't be against renaming the 4-tuner as well since it supposedly has built-in WiFi and additional functionality.
> 
> I do see the confusion element so maybe it should be the Premiere 4S, Premiere XL4S, Premiere 6, and Premiere XL6...


Whatever they call it they will probably change the name six months later.


----------



## Philmatic

The only way this all works if they discontinue all existing DVR models, introduce the new models and name them something new. If they release new models in drips and drabs along with existing hardware, they are doing it wrong.

Also, if they name it the TiVo *One*, I will boycott TiVo out of principle.


----------



## atmuscarella

Philmatic said:


> ...No, Digital OTA is ATSC and Digital Cable is QAM. Totally different tuning technologies. Although some of the newer chips integrate some of the shared pieces, but for the most part they remain independent.
> 
> You may be right in that the physical tuner is independent of the intended signal, but in the TiVo they are hardwired to go to specific chips for demodulation and decoding. Or in the case of Analog NTSC, encoding to MPEG 2.
> 
> The original Premiere had 4 physical tuners (2 QAM and 2 ATSC/NTSC) but 6 logical ones, 2 NTSC, 2 ATSC, 2 QAM. They could be used in any combination of two max.
> 
> The digital cable only Premieres that came later got rid of the 4 OTA tuners (ATSC/NTSC) and bumped up the QAM tuners to 4 with the possibility of tuning those 4 simultaneously.
> 
> Disclaimer: I am not an hardware or broadcast engineer, my knowledge on the chip layout in tuning configurations is not authoritative.


Most of what you said is what I would have thought logically until I started looking around for info. This thread lists the Premiere specs:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=444083​
and has this chart:









Which does not show what you are saying, plus when I looked at this article:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/28974077/Technical-Review-of-the-TiVo-Premiere​Which lists: 

the tuners as 2x Microtune MT2131
the demodulators as Micronas DRX 3946A and DRX 3944J
and the NTSC decoder as NXP SAA7164CE
which leads me to my questions because there does not appear to be different tuners for digital OTA and digital cable, plus if you look at the specs for the Microtune MT2131 tuners it is pretty clear they can do both OTA and cable.

Again can anyone else explain all of this?


----------



## bradleys

Philmatic said:


> The only way this all works if they discontinue all existing DVR models, introduce the new models and name them something new. If they release new models in drips and drabs along with existing hardware, they are doing it wrong.
> 
> Also, if they name it the TiVo *One*, I will boycott TiVo out of principle.


I don't like it, but I suspect the name is going to be:

*TiVo Premier Series 5*


----------



## Philmatic

A tuner in a generic sense (As we use it on the forums) are a combination of several things, the physical coax input, the chip that pulls the raw signal out coax input and assign it to the appropriate demodulation chips, demodulation and encoding/decoding chips, along with any other amps, memory and filters.

The 2x Microtune MT2131 tuners can handle ATSC, QAM, and NTSC, so it doesn't matter what signal comes into them. However, due to the way the TiVo Premiere was designed, the Analog/Digital OTA input is hardwired to the Micronas DRX 3946J and the Cable input is hardwired the Micronas DRX 3944J. Both demodulators support all three modulation techniques:


Digital OTA: 8VSB
Digital Cable: QAM 64/256
Analog OTA/Analog Cable: NTSC
The only difference between the two demodulators is that the 3944J supports the POD interface to communicate with the CableCard.

FYI: There's nothing wrong with how TiVo designed it, it just happened to be the way they decided to do it.


----------



## Philmatic

I should also clarify that each of the two Microtune MT2131 tuners can internally tune two things at once. That's why you can record two OTA channels or two Cable channels from one input, it is being split internally inside the tuner and the modulation chips are doing double duty.

That's why we simply say it had 6 tuners but only 2 can be used at a time.


----------



## atmuscarella

Philmatic said:


> I should also clarify that each of the two Microtune MT2131 tuners can internally tune two things at once. That's why you can record two OTA channels or two Cable channels from one input, it is being split internally inside the tuner and the modulation chips are doing double duty.
> 
> That's why we simply say it had 6 tuners but only 2 can be used at a time.


Thank you.

Back to my original question about tuners anyone have any idea what TiVo might be using in the next boxes? The ones in the Premiere are listed as a Legacy/EOL product so I am fairly sure they will be using something else.


----------



## sbiller

FWIW, this thread has info on the component in the Premiere Elite/XL4.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8747390&posted=1#post8747390

I wonder who will be the first person to open the new boxes and post pics!


----------



## Dan203

A "tuner" is really nothing more then a piece of electronics which can focus on a specific frequency in the spectrum. In that sense all "tuners" can do NTSC, ATSC or QAM. The real magic behind ATSC and QAM is their modulation. The modulation allows digital data to be encoded into an analog stream. The demodulator is what converts that analog stream back into digital data.

If TiVo really wanted to save money then what they could do is make a unit that is either cable or OTA, but not both. That way they could use a single tuner/demodulator and decide via software which mode to use. As Philmatic pointed out there are already tuners and demodulators available that can support both standards, so it seems like this type of design should be possible. Although I'm not a hardware engineer, so I could be wrong.


----------



## Dan203

sbiller said:


> I wonder who will be the first person to open the new boxes and post pics!


Someone opened their Mini within hours of it's release, so I don't think we'll have to wait long for details on the new unit once they're released.


----------



## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> ...
> 
> If TiVo really wanted to save money then what they could do is make a unit that is either cable or OTA, but not both. ...


That's what I thought as I was reading through all this. Seems like the P4 could become OTA (digital only) just by flipping a software switch. If that is really the case once Tivo has the needed FCC exception to drop OTA analog, I don't see why Tivo would not make that option available at least on any new DVRs and what we could end up with is just 2 new DVRs an enter level 4 tuner and a XL 6 tuner.


----------



## innocentfreak

sbiller said:


> FWIW, this thread has info on the component in the Premiere Elite/XL4.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8747390&posted=1#post8747390
> 
> I wonder who will be the first person to open the new boxes and post pics!


I have a feeling I just quoted the person. Hopefully this time when I go to buy my TiVo they won't have to search this time since when I bought my Elite someone bought the one that was easy for them to find.


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> It should. Only two things would trigger this behavior. 1) If the same episode had been recorded in the last 28 days. 2) The original air date is more then 2 weeks prior to the current date.
> 
> I had a problem once with it not recording an Showtime show and when I looked at the data I saw that even though the episodes were new all the data had an original air date of a couple months prior so TiVo thought it was old. Like everything on TiVo it depends on good data. Without good data the whole system can be unpredictable.


It was the Rachel Maddow show, so definitely not a re-run other than the 3 hours later version.


----------



## dswallow

Bierboy said:


> I consider myself a heavy user, and I've NEVER had a conflict with four tuners. Since OTA networks are in such disarray with horrible programming, I have no need for more tuners. The cable nets re-broadcast everything...


I had a conflict two days ago -- one basically caused by the idiocy of shows that begin or end 1 or 2 minutes longer than a normal timeslot. Of course it was also a show on a non-broadcast channel, so it repeats a dozen times. It could also have been solved were there a way to say to not record the episode(s) at all from that timeslot and allow it to get picked up from another timeslot. Still, it's something 6 tuners might be useful for over 4 tuners.


----------



## mattack

dswallow said:


> I had a conflict two days ago -- one basically caused by the idiocy of shows that begin or end 1 or 2 minutes longer than a normal timeslot.


That's exactly what I have been talking about regarding padding. I pad most shows by default until I show over several airings that they don't need padding (and even that sometimes comes back to bite me). But basically, some networks (broadcast & cable) ALWAYS need padding, some never do.


----------



## lessd

Philmatic said:


> He's talking about removing ClearQAM. I would say the possibility of such a removal is slim-to-none. The perceived cost savings would be offset by losing functionality that a large swath of the country can still use.


Yes that what I was referring to, I don't have the answer, that why I asked.
Do you think a large swath of the country uses a TiVo without a cable card (and I don't mean a TP used for OTA) say a TP-4 ?


----------



## moyekj

Maxlinear tuners in the Elite/XL4 are crap as far as I'm concerned (witness all these threads about losing ability to tune all channels which my Elite suffers from periodically as well but my 2 tuner Premieres never did). Sure hope the 6 tuner units use a different tuner IC vendor. Speed bump is also a certainty and can't wait to dump the Elite just for that reason alone.


----------



## sbiller

moyekj said:


> Maxlinear tuners in the Elite/XL4 are crap as far as I'm concerned (witness all these threads about losing ability to tune all channels which my Elite suffers from periodically as well but my 2 tuner Premieres never did). Sure hope the 6 tuner units use a different tuner IC vendor. Speed bump is also a certainty and can't wait to dump the Elite just for that reason alone.


Thanks Moyekj... I remembered that TiVo selected a different Tuner vendor for the Elite/XL4 but didn't recall seeing the supplier name posted.

I also agree that it does appear that there are some "technical" issues with that selection.


----------



## aaronwt

mattack said:


> That's exactly what I have been talking about regarding padding. I pad most shows by default until I show over several airings that they don't need padding (and even that sometimes comes back to bite me). But basically, some networks (broadcast & cable) ALWAYS need padding, some never do.


Just the opposite for me. I don't pad by default since the majority of shows I watch don't need it. But for the few I do pad, it's typically to get the previews for next week. The actual show isn't cut off.


----------



## atmuscarella

aaronwt said:


> Just the opposite for me. I don't pad by default since the majority of shows I watch don't need it. But for the few I do pad, it's typically to get the previews for next week. The actual show isn't cut off.


I also rarely need to pad (note I am OTA only) outside of broadcast delays caused by some live event. But there are/were some Fox shows that cut the previews off and came really close to needing it.


----------



## atmuscarella

moyekj said:


> Maxlinear tuners in the Elite/XL4 are crap as far as I'm concerned (witness all these threads about losing ability to tune all channels which my Elite suffers from periodically as well but my 2 tuner Premieres never did). Sure hope the 6 tuner units use a different tuner IC vendor. Speed bump is also a certainty and can't wait to dump the Elite just for that reason alone.


Looks like Maxlinear is either in or going to be in HDHomerun products:

http://www.maxlinear.com/silicondust-selects-maxlinear-for-next-generation-of-hdhomerun-network-attached-tuner-products/​
Any idea what model number of the tuners/demodulators are in the Elite/P4/XL4?


----------



## moyekj

atmuscarella said:


> Looks like Maxlinear is either in or going to be in HDHomerun products:
> 
> http://www.maxlinear.com/silicondust-selects-maxlinear-for-next-generation-of-hdhomerun-network-attached-tuner-products/​
> Any idea what model number of the tuners/demodulators are in the Elite/P4/XL4?


See MaxLinear Cable Receivers Drive New Whole House Entertainment System


> ...today announced that its MxL241SF single-die integrated tuner and QAM demodulator is the MPEG tuner behind the TiVo® Premiere Elite, TiVo Premiere Q and TiVo Preview products.


Here is a short spec sheet on MxL241SF.


----------



## atmuscarella

moyekj said:


> See MaxLinear Cable Receivers Drive New Whole House Entertainment System
> 
> Here is a short spec sheet on MxL241SF.


Interesting, HDHomerun decided to go with a different chip the MaxLinear MxL603 Which appears able to do OTA & Cable (no mention of a built in demodulator) unlike the MxL241SF which appears to only be for cable and have a built in demodulator.

It will be interesting to see what TiVo decides to do with the new boxes.


----------



## nooneuknow

lessd said:


> Yes that what I was referring to, I don't have the answer, that why I asked.
> Do you think a large swath of the country uses a TiVo without a cable card (and I don't mean a TP used for OTA) say a TP-4 ?


It's my understanding, from what I've read on these forums, over time, that just like most markets have, or will be, moving to SDV, that another move being made is eliminating analog cable. Without analog cable, there's only Clear-QAM left for those without cablecards. If the FCC allows encryption of Clear-QAM, making it just QAM, it's also my understanding that a cablecard will be required to receive any (cable) programming (plus a Tuning Adapter, where applicable).

I think the ONLY reason Cox in Las Vegas is still broadcasting in both analog and Clear-QAM (the latter being only local OTA stations), while deploying SDV, is their intense marketing campaign they ran about how our "friends at Cox" would keep our old analog TVs working, when the analog OTA switchover was imminent.

However, they also promise a "free" internet speed increase, annually, which has been double the prior year's speed. Of course, after 6-8 months of enjoying this "free" speed increase, they increase the bill, citing their costs, and also blaming taxes. I'm certain, that once they need more spectrum to accommodate the speed increases (and profits), they'll move to eliminating analog cable.

Does that help any?


----------



## lessd

nooneuknow said:


> It's my understanding, from what I've read on these forums, over time, that just like most markets have, or will be, moving to SDV, that another move being made is eliminating analog cable. Without analog cable, there's only Clear-QAM left for those without cablecards. If the FCC allows encryption of Clear-QAM, making it just QAM, it's also my understanding that a cablecard will be required to receive any (cable) programming (plus a Tuning Adapter, where applicable).
> 
> I think the ONLY reason Cox in Las Vegas is still broadcasting in both analog and Clear-QAM (the latter being only local OTA stations), while deploying SDV, is their intense marketing campaign they ran about how our "friends at Cox" would keep our old analog TVs working, when the analog OTA switchover was imminent.
> 
> However, they also promise a "free" internet speed increase, annually, which has been double the prior year's speed. Of course, after 6-8 months of enjoying this "free" speed increase, they increase the bill, citing their costs, and also blaming taxes. I'm certain, that once they need more spectrum to accommodate the speed increases (and profits), they'll move to eliminating analog cable.
> 
> Does that help any?


My real question is: would a non OTA TiVo save anything in hardware/software cost by removing the ability to receive clear QAM, and require a cable card for any reception, the answer I got is that TiVo would not save much or anything by doing this. Comcast in CT is going all scramble in July so clear QAM will not be an option in my area after July. (I don't use clear QAM except to test out a new TiVo)


----------



## Philmatic

lessd said:


> My real question is: would a non OTA TiVo save anything in hardware/software cost by removing the ability to receive clear QAM, and require a cable card for any reception, the answer I got is that TiVo would not save much or anything by doing this. Comcast in CT is going all scramble in July so clear QAM will not be an option in my area after July. (I don't use clear QAM except to test out a new TiVo)


From earlier in the thread:



Dan203 said:


> QAM is QAM. The only difference between ClearQAM and encrypted QAM is a flag in the stream that marks it as encrypted. It's not like they use separate chips or anything. The only way they could "remove" ClearQAM is via some sort of software patch, which would cost them money not save them any. Plus it's not like they really support ClearQAM now. The tuner can pick it up but they don't assign any guide data to it. So unless you have a CableCARD it's basically useless anyway.


So no...


----------



## Bigg

Wow, this discussion is dumb. Clear QAM requires LESS hardware than CableCard, not the other way around.


----------



## Dan203

Bigg said:


> Wow, this discussion is dumb. Clear QAM requires LESS hardware than CableCard, not the other way around.


Exactly! As I said QAM is QAM. The only difference between clear QAM and encrypted QAM is that encrypted QAM is flagged and requires a CableCARD in the loop to decrypt. You could create a device that only supports clear QAM and maybe save a few bucks on the CableCARD related hardware, and the CableLabs certification process. However there is absolutely no cost savings to eliminating clear QAM from a device that already supports encrypted QAM.

The only way they're going to save money here is by combining the ATSC and the QAM "tuners" into a single unit and selecting the mode via software. Otherwise they're going to have to go with a system identical to the Premiere where there are separate inputs and separate "tuners" for OTA and cable.

Although I think that they pretty much have to go with the first option, regardless of cost savings, just because there aren't enough inputs on the chipset for 8 discrete "tuners". I'm pretty sure the chip they're going to use only supports 6 "tuners". So if they want 4 tuners then it has to be a single input with switchable mode. Either that or it's going to be a 3 tuner unit with simultaneous input from OTA and cable. But since the Mini is marketed specifically as only working with 4 tuner units I'm betting that's not the way they are going.


----------



## mattack

aaronwt said:


> Just the opposite for me. I don't pad by default since the majority of shows I watch don't need it. But for the few I do pad, it's typically to get the previews for next week. The actual show isn't cut off.


NBC shows routinely have the end gag cut off.
Discovery has end gag/summary (e.g. Mythbusters) on many shows.
While I haven't recorded anything on it in a while, E! starts/ends shows a partial minute late.

MTV needs ~2 minutes pre/post pad since their schedule is totally wacky.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

We have a model number -- Series 5/TCD848000

On the MoCA Alliance webpage, they list devices that are MoCA certified and this was just recently added.

The head scratcher is that it's MoCA 1.1 certified when the most likely Broadcom chip is 2.0 certified... Going with a separate Entropic or similar solution instead?


----------



## Philmatic

BigJimOutlaw said:


> We have a model number -- Series 5/TCD848000
> 
> On the MoCA Alliance webpage, they list devices that are MoCA certified and this was just recently added.
> 
> The head scratcher is that it's MoCA 1.1 certified when the most likely Broadcom chip is 2.0 certified.


Nice find! Tweeted to Dave Zatz and Richard Lawler of Engadget.


----------



## sbiller

BigJimOutlaw said:


> We have a model number -- Series 5/TCD848000
> 
> On the MoCA Alliance webpage, they list devices that are MoCA certified and this was just recently added.
> 
> The head scratcher is that it's MoCA 1.1 certified when the most likely Broadcom chip is 2.0 certified.


Very nice! :up:


----------



## Philmatic

Weird that only one device was certified. Hopefully it's a process and not that only one of new devices has MoCA, that would be disappointing.


----------



## sbiller

BigJimOutlaw said:


> We have a model number -- Series 5/TCD848000
> 
> On the MoCA Alliance webpage, they list devices that are MoCA certified and this was just recently added.
> 
> The head scratcher is that it's MoCA 1.1 certified when the most likely Broadcom chip is 2.0 certified... Going with a separate Entropic or similar solution instead?


Hmmm... Only one box?


----------



## innocentfreak

Have the model numbers actually ever meant anything? I know in the past it gave us an idea of hard drive.

Also what if they end up using two different Broadcom chips. I would hope they opt for a better chip in the 6 tuner since we know how well it worked in the 2 vs 4 tuner using the same chip. Maybe the second box is still going through certification.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I've been keeping an eye on the page. This was added in the last day or 2. There could be more to come. We just keep watching I guess.


----------



## Philmatic

innocentfreak said:


> Have the model numbers actually ever meant anything? I know in the past it gave us an idea of hard drive.
> 
> Also what if they end up using two different Broadcom chips. I would hope they opt for a better chip in the 6 tuner since we know how well it worked in the 2 vs 4 tuner using the same chip. Maybe the second box is still going through certification.


It could mean a 1TB model, but TiVo started being inconsistent with this when the TiVo Premiere XL4 came out:










Previously the last 3/4 digits determined the size of the internal drive, with all zeros denoting 1 TB, not so much anymore.

*EDIT: The Wiki is wrong, it is likely to be a 1TB model. *


----------



## davezatz

Philmatic said:


> Nice find! Tweeted to Dave Zatz and Richard Lawler of Engadget.


Thanks! Probably can't do anything with the tidbit tonight as I got some familial obligations (and I've got a couple other irons in the fire I may wait on...). One device listing is interesting, as we know there are at least two models (consisting of at least three configs) in play. Hm. Perhaps a lower-end model won't include MoCA or it's a delay in certification or staggered release. *IF* I *HAD* to place a wager, I'd bet we'll see another one show up before too long.


----------



## Dan203

Hmmm... What's the TCDA90000? I know the TCDA92000 is the Mini and TCDA94000 is the Stream, but what's the TCDA90000?


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> Hmmm... What's the TCDA90000? I know the TCDA92000 is the Mini and TCDA94000 is the Stream, but what's the TCDA90000?


I don't have time to research now, but it's probably the Preview.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The 90000 is the Preview. It has MoCA.

I'm guessing the second 8 suggests this model is of the THX/Glo Remote/XL variety. As the PXL was "748", XL4 was "758", and the TivoHD XL was "658". So perhaps this is the rumored > 2 TB (3TB?) configuration. Not sure.


----------



## Philmatic

Dan203 said:


> Hmmm... What's the TCDA90000? I know the TCDA92000 is the Mini and TCDA94000 is the Stream, but what's the TCDA90000?


The Preview or Q? Whatever was the Cable-only unit. Makes sense since the certification dates back to 4/12/2011.


----------



## Dan203

davezatz said:


> I don't have time to research now, but it's probably the Preview.





BigJimOutlaw said:


> The 90000 is the Preview. It has MoCA.


Ahhh.. OK. I forgot about the Preview.


----------



## Dan203

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The head scratcher is that it's MoCA 1.1 certified when the most likely Broadcom chip is 2.0 certified... Going with a separate Entropic or similar solution instead?


Maybe they only applied for 1.1 certification? The Mini is only capable of 1.1 so they may not actually need 2.0 features. Or this could be the 4 tuner unit and it uses a lesser chip then what we expect to be in the 6 tuner unit.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Any guesses what OSP stands for? All of the other Tivo models there have an OSP distinction.

Edit: Nevermind. "An OSP device is intended for installation for special applications only by service providers and is not usually available in the retail market." (This doesn't really apply since we do have retail products with these model numbers.)


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> Maybe they only applied for 1.1 certification? The Mini is only capable of 1.1 so they may not actually need 2.0 features. Or this could be the 4 tuner unit and it uses a lesser chip then what we expect to be in the 6 tuner unit.


It's possible. Can the integrated MoCA properly function as a bridge like the P4/XL4 solution does? Perhaps it was necessary to go off-chip to maintain bridging. And cheaper 1.1 chips should be "good enough" especially since the Mini and everything else is 1.1 and can't go higher anyway.


----------



## Philmatic

Does the Broadcom chip allow them to provide MoCA bridging capabilities? Maybe it was a choice between MoCA 2.0 and no bridging capabilities and MoCA 1.1 with bridging.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Philmatic said:


> Does the Broadcom chip allow them to provide MoCA bridging capabilities? Maybe it was a choice between MoCA 2.0 and no bridging capabilities and MoCA 1.1 with bridging.


Yeah, that's what I'm figuring.


----------



## Dan203

Hmmm... could be. The details of the Broadcom chip are sort of vague, so I'm not sure if it does bridging. If not then this is a good theory.


----------



## Dan203

Did anyone else notice that the previous gen units were lumped together as....

TCD750500 / TCD758250

And this new entry is listed as.....

Series 5/TCD848000

Maybe those are two different models? Maybe one of the two units doesn't have a model number yet so it's currently just designated as "Series 5"?


----------



## innocentfreak

Philmatic said:


> It could mean a 1TB model, but TiVo started being inconsistent with this when the TiVo Premiere XL4 came out:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Previously the last 3/4 digits determined the size of the internal drive, with all zeros denoting 1 TB, not so much anymore.
> 
> *EDIT: The Wiki is wrong, it is likely to be a 1TB model. *


If they just use the last three, it could be 1,2, or 3TB. Still it could be the base Premiere 4 if just 1TB.


----------



## Dan203

They probably wont use the model number to indicate HD size anymore. They have that 8 in there to differentiate between standard and XL units. Could just be...

TCD848000 = XL
TCD840000 = standard

And maybe the 6 tuner will be TCD858000/TCD850000


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> Did anyone else notice that the previous gen units were lumped together as....
> 
> TCD750500 / TCD758250
> 
> And this new entry is listed as.....
> 
> Series 5/TCD848000
> 
> Maybe those are two different models? Maybe one of the two units doesn't have a model number yet so it's currently just designated as "Series 5"?


Could be. But if they are similar enough to be lumped together, their model # convention should be rather easy. TCD848000/TCD846000 for example.

I tend to believe there will only be one 4-tuner model. Perhaps this is the lone 4-tuner model with the 6-tuner models with multiple configs still to come.

Oy. Who knows. So funny how these little nuggets make us go nuts with guesses.  At least we know they consider this gen a Series 5. Heh.


----------



## P42

Based on the MoCA certification of prior Tivo, how long after do they typically show up on shelves?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

P42 said:


> Based on the MoCA certification of prior Tivo, how long after do they typically show up on shelves?


I don't know if it's a direct indicator. The answer is always vaguely "months". But all separate clues point to Sept/Oct.

This reminds me though, if there is integrated wifi as rumored, technically I believe there should also be an FCC certification as well if there wasn't one already. Dave found the BT remote test, was there ever a test found for the WiFi?


----------



## Dan203

The Elite (aka XL4) was certified on 8/16/11 and the press release announcing it was on 9/7/11. However the Mini was certified on 9/11/12 and and the pres release announcing it was on 3/11/13. So somewhere between 3 weeks and 5 months.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> The Elite (aka XL4) was certified on 8/16/11 and the press release announcing it was on 9/7/11. However the Mini was certified on 9/11/12 and and the pres release announcing it was on 3/11/13. So somewhere between 3 weeks and 5 months.


Probably heavily dependent on the timing of new software. The hardware is likely waiting at this point for the FCC waiver to be issued sometime in July.


----------



## davezatz

BigJimOutlaw said:


> This reminds me though, if there is integrated wifi as rumored, technically I believe there should also be an FCC certification as well if there wasn't one already. Dave found the BT remote test, was there ever a test found for the WiFi?


Maybe... if WiFi and/or RF is integrated into a (Broadcom) chip that's already been approved, they may not have to do any additional certification. While I don't think TiVo would bother, it's also possible to be somewhat sneaky with FCC filings by using the hardware manufacturer or testing firm names. Of course, I'm continuing to scan - but the collective is more than welcome to assist!

In fact, I'll pass along one of my vectors... just don't tip off Engadget Richard before you tip me if we hit pay dirt. 

http://certifications.wi-fi.org/sea...h=1&advanced=1&lang=en&filter_company_id=2020


----------



## Philmatic

davezatz said:


> In fact, I'll pass along one of my vectors... just don't tip off Engadget Richard before you tip me if we hit pay dirt.
> 
> http://certifications.wi-fi.org/sea...h=1&advanced=1&lang=en&filter_company_id=2020


I thought you had familial obligations?


----------



## nrc

mattack said:


> NBC shows routinely have the end gag cut off.
> Discovery has end gag/summary (e.g. Mythbusters) on many shows.
> While I haven't recorded anything on it in a while, E! starts/ends shows a partial minute late.
> 
> MTV needs ~2 minutes pre/post pad since their schedule is totally wacky.


I don't pad Mythbusters and I don't recall ever missing the ending.


----------



## morac

nrc said:


> I don't pad Mythbusters and I don't recall ever missing the ending.


For me the recording frequently ends right before they give the final result: busted, plausible or confirmed.


----------



## aaronwt

BigJimOutlaw said:


> We have a model number -- Series 5/TCD848000
> 
> On the MoCA Alliance webpage, they list devices that are MoCA certified and this was just recently added.
> 
> The head scratcher is that it's MoCA 1.1 certified when the most likely Broadcom chip is 2.0 certified... Going with a separate Entropic or similar solution instead?


None of the Broadcom devices on that page are 2.0 certified. They are 1.1 and 1.0 certified.


----------



## Bigg

morac said:


> For me the recording frequently ends right before they give the final result: busted, plausible or confirmed.


Same. Kind of annoying to have to Google it right after. So I pad now.


----------



## MeInDallas

BigJimOutlaw said:


> So funny how these little nuggets make us go nuts with guesses.


It is actually funny to watch everyone go on and on with speculation everyday


----------



## wco81

I need a new DVR now.

Hope this is worth waiting for ...


----------



## magnus

MeInDallas said:


> It is actually funny to watch everyone go on and on with speculation everyday


Yep, I'm getting to point where I don't even care. They just release a half completed product anyway and never complete it before the next version and then say they're not going to complete the old product so that they can focus on the new one.


----------



## innocentfreak

MeInDallas said:


> It is actually funny to watch everyone go on and on with speculation everyday


If we didn't speculate, there would be nothing to really talk about.

Still no finished HDUI, Still no Android Stream support, No new features in the last update, etc.


----------



## bradleys

innocentfreak said:


> If we didn't speculate, there would be nothing to really talk about.
> 
> Still no finished HDUI, Still no Android Stream support, No new features in the last update, etc.


Honest question - what does finished HDUI really mean? Is the product not finished if the "settings" screens are not HDUI?

What screen do you commonly use that is still a jarring switch between HUDI and SDUI?

I am far less concerned about "finishing the UI" then I am about a faster processor, 6 tuners, dynamic tuner allocation and the such...

I get the annoyance of no Android Stream support - I don't have any android devices - but at least it makes some sense to me as a concern.

Personally, I am patiently waiting for a new TiVo desktop implementation that streams to my Surface tablet.


----------



## innocentfreak

bradleys said:


> Honest question - what does finished HDUI really mean? Is the product not finished if the "settings" screens are not HDUI?
> 
> What screen do you commonly use that is still a jarring switch between HUDI and SDUI?
> 
> I am far less concerned about "finishing the UI" then I am about a faster processor, 6 tuners, dynamic tuner allocation and the such...


I think it is more an issue of launching a new generation of products over three years after launch without the entire UI converted to HDUI. The first thing in every review will be TiVo launched their new boxes and we have a hands on. Even though it is over 3 years since the launch of the Premiere TiVo and TiVo is launching a new generation they still have not finished the HDUI.

It isn't about what screens I use though I do go in settings pretty regularly, but more about launching a new product when your last product wasn't completely upgraded to a "New HD user interface for optimized search & discovery". SD screens does not a HDUI make.

You never want to launch a new product when the general consensus is your last product isn't finished. It doesn't leave a good taste. While we can assume any future development we see on the new series 5 will come back to the Premiere unless the chip isn't fast enough, it still isn't a good thing when you want people to buy your new hardware.

I will buy one because I don't have a choice since family is waiting on my Elite, but if I had a choice I would wait until TiVo shows me they can finish what they started before shifting focus.


----------



## slowbiscuit

bradleys said:


> Honest question - what does finished HDUI really mean? Is the product not finished if the "settings" screens are not HDUI?
> 
> What screen do you commonly use that is still a jarring switch between HUDI and SDUI?


Wishlists, all the time. Not to mention that it's just sloppy and lazy to have not done everything by now anyway, leading to the consensus among some that it's a half-baked product (not just for the HDUI of course).


----------



## Dan203

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll finish all the HD screens for the next release. Then the new one will launch complete and the old one will be finally finished.


----------



## innocentfreak

Dan203 said:


> Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll finish all the HD screens for the next release. Then the new one will launch complete and the old one will be finally finished.


That was my thinking. I would hope though it comes out before the official announcement of the boxes. Roll out the update and then announce the new models.


----------



## Dan203

Although if they finish the Wish List and Find By Time/Channel screens then the only thing left would be the settings, which aren't all that important. If it was a choice between the settings being HD and something like user profiles I would rather have the user profiles.


----------



## NotNowChief

I am interested to see when this comes out!

Since I nicknamed the Mini "UNICORN", I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate the nickname I made for the Series 5 several months ago: "BIGFOOT".

Let's hope the Mini was an exception, and the dates are more in line with what Dan mentioned above!


----------



## morac

innocentfreak said:


> While we can assume any future development we see on the new series 5 will come back to the Premiere unless the chip isn't fast enough, it still isn't a good thing when you want people to buy your new hardware.


I wouldn't assume that at all. TiVo has a history of abandoning development on older platforms when new ones come out. The Series 3 boxes got a few bug fix releases after the Series 4 boxes came out and then nothing. I expect it will be the same with the Series 4 when the Series 5 comes out. The Series 4 might get a few more apps or what not, I doubt it will get any new features. I don't believe the HDUI interface will ever be complete on the Series 4 boxes.


----------



## innocentfreak

morac said:


> I wouldn't assume that at all. TiVo has a history of abandoning development on older platforms when new ones come out. The Series 3 boxes got a few bug fix releases after the Series 4 boxes came out and then nothing. I expect it will be the same with the Series 4 when the Series 5 comes out. The Series 4 might get a few more apps or what not, I doubt it will get any new features. I don't believe the HDUI interface will ever be complete on the Series 4 boxes.


I don't think you can compare the TiVo HD to the Series 4 due to the shift to Flash.

The Series 5 unless they drop Flash should be running the same software the Series 4 runs so any updates should roll backwards unless it is features that requires too much processing power. We have also seen the MSOs pick up the Series 4 which means if TiVo abandons it they are also forcing the cable companies to upgrade and they tend to stick to a 5-6 year cycle.

I wouldn't expect the Series 4 to get updates all the way through the life of the Series 5, but I would expect it to happen at least for another year if not two.


----------



## Jonathan_S

slowbiscuit said:


> Wishlists, all the time. Not to mention that it's just sloppy and lazy to have not done everything by now anyway, leading to the consensus among some that it's a half-baked product (not just for the HDUI of course).


That's the one I wish they'd finish.

I don't mind how it looks now, but checking my (non-autorecording) wishlists takes long enough I'd like to be able to keep watching a show in the HDUI's preview window while it thinks.


----------



## Dan203

I agree. With previous generations the series shift was such a massive change that they basically had to maintain two sets of code for each unit. This new unit will essentially be the same as the Mini, which currently runs the exact same software as the Premiere, so they should be able to maintain a common codebase that works on both units. Now they may create a few exclusive features for the S5 to help drive upgrades, but I don't think the HDUI screens will be part of that. I think if they update something to HD on one it will be updated on all.


----------



## SeaFractor

I will refuse to purchase "any" new Tivo products until Netflix is stable. I'm less interested in the GUI being all HD than having NetFlix lock up on the completion of a show and having to return to home and then go back in.


----------



## Philmatic

I'm already given up on the one box concept. I'd resigned myself to a TiVo for Live/Recorded TV and a WD TV Live for local content/online services. Simple and reliable.

Left XBMC because of the high HTPC requirements and it not working like an appliance.


----------



## bradleys

SeaFractor said:


> I will refuse to purchase "any" new Tivo products until Netflix is stable. I'm less interested in the GUI being all HD than having NetFlix lock up on the completion of a show and having to return to home and then go back in.


Netflix and other OTP implementations is one of my biggest disappointments as well. I think one of the main reasons TiVo has not had a better record of attracting OTP providers is the performance issue.

Netflix doesn't have any issues running on Adobe Air, but the wimpy processor in the Premier line simply cannot handle it properly.

I am hoping the upgraded processor in the next gen boxes fair better then what we have today.


----------



## Dan203

I'm hoping that in addition to existing apps running better that the new processor will entice more services to offer apps as well. I'd like to see HBOGo, VUDU and Amazon Streaming. My hope is that those services will allow their apps on TiVo once the box has sufficient hardware to run them properly.


----------



## atmuscarella

SeaFractor said:


> I will refuse to purchase "any" new Tivo products until Netflix is stable. I'm less interested in the GUI being all HD than having NetFlix lock up on the completion of a show and having to return to home and then go back in.


While streaming on any TiVo "Series 5" hardware should be fine if you are buying a TiVo to have access to Netflix I have a bridge that would make a good investment for you. Pretty much anything that has had it's hardware updated in the last year or 2 (TVs, blu-ray players, gaming consoles, stand alone streaming devices) works fine for streaming, the only reason to buy a TiVo is because you want a DVR and the only reason to upgrade an existing Premiere is because you want t better DVR. If all you want is Netflix or some other streaming service buy a Roku, Apple TV, or better yet a new Panasonic or Samsung TV.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

While having everything in one box would be much more convenient and desirable, I've also given up on waiting for Tivo to come around on apps. They'll probably never be as good as Roku, and I didn't see the point in stubbornly tolerating it any longer in the hope that they do come around some day. So I swallowed and grabbed a Roku. And I'm glad I did. Really, it's quite nice.


----------



## Dan203

Being able to incorporate these services into the TiVo Search is the main draw for me. Having to use each services search separately is a real PITA. Being able to search for something in one place and knowing for certain whether it is or isn't available on any of the services I have available to me would be a huge plus. Barring that I'll just continue to use my Samsung TV.


----------



## wco81

I was reading about the X1 on broadbandreports.com forums and a couple of the guys were discussing the embedded processors used in DVRs. They said at least on some benchmarks, the Broadcom processors used on Tivos and other DVRs lag badly behind the ARM SOCs used on phones. Not even the latest phones but something like the A4 in the iPhone 4 is way faster.

That might explain why streaming apps. like Netflix perform better on those boxes. Certainly you'd expect better performance than the streaming features in Blu-Ray players or integrated into TVs.


And then the other part of it is that the cable companies do not like hardware playing HBO Go proliferating. Heard that one reason it took so long for HBO Go to come to Apple TV is that the cable companies fought it, so HBO had to really coax them into agreeing.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Yeah, the CPU in the Premiere is roughly equivalent to the iPhone 3S. It can do apps in theory, but the big asterisk is that DVRs multitask while phones generally don't. There is guide indexing, 24/7 buffering on up to 4 tuners, occasional internet downloads, and all the other background stuff it does. So the end result is what we got... a software platform that was too enterprising for its hardware. As others have mentioned in the past, it technically doesn't even meet Adobe's Flash/AIR hardware requirements. So it was gimped out of the gate.

The presumed new chip has 3x the performance. That should in theory be good enough to give us a Mini-like experience and decent app performance even with all the background tasks running. So I'm looking forward to seeing how it does.


----------



## nooneuknow

wco81 said:


> I was reading about the X1 on broadbandreports.com forums and a couple of the guys were discussing the embedded processors used in DVRs. They said at least on some benchmarks, the Broadcom processors used on Tivos and other DVRs lag badly behind the ARM SOCs used on phones. Not even the latest phones but something like the A4 in the iPhone 4 is way faster.
> 
> That might explain why streaming apps. like Netflix perform better on those boxes. Certainly you'd expect better performance than the streaming features in Blu-Ray players or integrated into TVs.
> 
> And then the other part of it is that the cable companies do not like hardware playing HBO Go proliferating. Heard that one reason it took so long for HBO Go to come to Apple TV is that the cable companies fought it, so HBO had to really coax them into agreeing.


All very good points, and reasoning. Besides HBO Go, there are so many other things that we are denied, or delayed, from being able to use, due to the broadcasters and cable providers...

I used to really enjoy the Epix feature on my RoKu 2 XS. It was basically Epix "on-demand". Then, Cox blocked me (and the whole Cox market, AFAIK) from using it. On top of that, Epix is one of the few CCI flagged channels. Since my home is a mishmash of TiVo HD units and Premiere 2-tuner models, it doesn't always work out well, trying to use the MRV-Streaming to get around the CCI flag, since it only works between Premiere platforms...

While TiVo does a pretty good job at crippling their own products, in the name of production cost savings, the other conglomerates in the game aren't making it any easier, or better, for the end-users...

I'm far too financially invested in lifetime service units, that are already a generation, or more obsolete, to jump on what TiVo drops onto the market now, or in the future.

I still vividly recall the HORRIFIC experience of taking TiVo up on their special offer for early adopters of the Premiere. They were so bad, I sent them back. I waited over a year, and found them tolerable. Now, as they are on the verge of being considered end-of-life, as TiVo releases new generations, they finally work as I feel they should have, the day they were released. I'm NOT going to make the same mistake, again, and buy whatever they roll-out as their next generation. It took until the last minute before the end-of-life of the TiVo HD for that product to get MOST of it's issues resolved, and reach its potential as well. I consider this a pattern that shouldn't be ignored.

If only my TiVo Premieres were DLNA-compliant... Then, I'd really be loving me some TiVo. Even if that's standard in what they bring to the market, I still wouldn't jump on post-release growing pains by buying the new products. I'll let the rest of you do the beta-testing that we all endure, right to the end-of-life point of their products.


----------



## atmuscarella

wco81 said:


> I was reading about the X1 on broadbandreports.com forums and a couple of the guys were discussing the embedded processors used in DVRs. They said at least on some benchmarks, the Broadcom processors used on Tivos and other DVRs lag badly behind the ARM SOCs used on phones. Not even the latest phones but something like the A4 in the iPhone 4 is way faster.
> 
> That might explain why streaming apps. like Netflix perform better on those boxes. Certainly you'd expect better performance than the streaming features in Blu-Ray players or integrated into TVs.
> 
> And then the other part of it is that the cable companies do not like hardware playing HBO Go proliferating. Heard that one reason it took so long for HBO Go to come to Apple TV is that the cable companies fought it, so HBO had to really coax them into agreeing.


No surprise as the processor in the Premiere is from 2009. While it might be ok to go years without a hardware update on the DVR side it isn't for all the other stuff that people want these DVRs to do. Here is old chart comparing the Premiere to other devices:


----------



## magnus

Dan203 said:


> Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll finish all the HD screens for the next release. Then the new one will launch complete and the old one will be finally finished.


Very wishful thinking. Based on the past, you're being too optimistic with Tivo.


----------



## Dan203

Probably, but a guy can hope can't he?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Love is blind...


----------



## mattack

bradleys said:


> Honest question - what does finished HDUI really mean? Is the product not finished if the "settings" screens are not HDUI?
> 
> What screen do you commonly use that is still a jarring switch between HUDI and SDUI?


Hey, the HD UI is so slow (but I like the feature set), that I don't want the rest of it to slow down (MOSTLY joking) to match..

But I swear there's something I use ALL the time that does do the jarring switch.. View Upcoming or something like that? Seems to me there's at least a few "common Tivo related" (i.e. TV listing/scheduling related) things that I do very often that involve that.

I check the settings screens less often (though a few times a week usually -- yeah I check to see if it's called in successfully.. even though I have a more reliable hardwired network nowadays).


----------



## lpwcomp

mattack said:


> But I swear there's something I use ALL the time that does do the jarring switch.. View Upcoming or something like that? Seems to me there's at least a few "common Tivo related" (i.e. TV listing/scheduling related) things that I do very often that involve that.


|View upcoming episodes" is definitely HDUI. Maybe it's "Find by Time" or "Find by Channel" that you're using. Those are still SDUI. Of course, anything that accesses your computer is SDUI and that may never change.


----------



## aaronwt

nooneuknow said:


> ...........................
> I still vividly recall the HORRIFIC experience of taking TiVo up on their special offer for early adopters of the Premiere. They were so bad, I sent them back. I waited over a year, and found them tolerable. Now, as they are on the verge of being considered end-of-life, as TiVo releases new generations, they finally work as I feel they should have, the day they were released. I'm NOT going to make the same mistake, again, and buy whatever they roll-out as their next generation. It took until the last minute before the end-of-life of the TiVo HD for that product to get MOST of it's issues resolved, and reach its potential as well. I consider this a pattern that shouldn't be ignored.
> 
> .............


I had an excellent experience with TiVo Premiere upgrade program. I picked up eight of the TiVo Premeires at launch. I hope they do something similar for the Series 5 launch.


----------



## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> I had an excellent experience with TiVo Premiere upgrade program. I picked up eight of the TiVo Premeires at launch. I hope they do something similar for the Series 5 launch.


I'm not trying to pick a fight. But, do you EVER have anything but praise for TiVo? I remember you staunchly defending them back then, and every problem reported, by anybody, you'd say you didn't have any such problem.

I remember thinking you must be a TiVo rep in disguise as a customer, doing stealth PR for them. I still wonder that, from time to time... No offense intended. You just stand out as somebody who's relative screen name would, or should, be "TiVoFan #1".   

EDIT/ADD: I checked the invoices for the promo w/lifetime, versus waiting and getting a year later deal w/lifetime, and it cost me HALF of what that early adopter promo was. I ended up with four LT Premieres, for the same amount as the two I had sent back. I really don't consider a promo/deal/discount on the inflated price of a just-released product, that provided more frustration, than entertainment, an excellent experience. To each their own, I guess. I'll stick with being a late-adopter, when it comes to TiVo.


----------



## atmuscarella

nooneuknow said:


> ...
> 
> EDIT/ADD: I checked the invoices for the promo w/lifetime, versus waiting and getting a year later deal w/lifetime, and it cost me HALF of what that early adopter promo was. I ended up with four LT Premieres, for the same amount as the two I had sent back. I really don't consider a promo/deal/discount on the inflated price of a just-released product, that provided more frustration, than entertainment, an excellent experience. To each their own, I guess. I'll stick with being a late-adopter, when it comes to TiVo.


I think you have your facts wrong. There were upgrade offers for a Premiere with lifetime at $500 or $470 from early on - just exactly when did you get one for $250? Answer never.

If you would like to see the various price points that the Premiere was offered at you can review my post - I tracked the Premiere's pricing up to the beginning of 2012.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=484973​


----------



## innocentfreak

He may be talking about the people who got the deal from that one online store where they ordered at the new $99 price point prior to the change and were able to get the old lifetime price of $299. This was a pricing mistake though and not a normal deal.

I know there were a few occasional really good deals on the Premiere by random online stores, but they were from a fairly unknown online store.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=454916


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## ncbill

A few years ago Tivo was offering $199 lifetime if you bought a Premiere from them directly.

During that campaign Premiere refurbs showed up on Woot for $60 - I bought one of those and managed to get the $199 lifetime as well.


----------



## aaronwt

nooneuknow said:


> I'm not trying to pick a fight. But, do you EVER have anything but praise for TiVo? I remember you staunchly defending them back then, and every problem reported, by anybody, you'd say you didn't have any such problem.
> 
> I remember thinking you must be a TiVo rep in disguise as a customer, doing stealth PR for them. I still wonder that, from time to time... No offense intended. You just stand out as somebody who's relative screen name would, or should, be "TiVoFan #1".
> 
> EDIT/ADD: I checked the invoices for the promo w/lifetime, versus waiting and getting a year later deal w/lifetime, and it cost me HALF of what that early adopter promo was. I ended up with four LT Premieres, for the same amount as the two I had sent back. I really don't consider a promo/deal/discount on the inflated price of a just-released product, that provided more frustration, than entertainment, an excellent experience. To each their own, I guess. I'll stick with being a late-adopter, when it comes to TiVo.


My launch Premieres(non XL) all cost me around $500 with lifetime and the 3 year extended warranty. This was after the cashback from some online program they had. I think it was Fat Wallet.

The sale of my Series 3 TiVos covered most of the cost of my launch Premieres. And the sale of four of my launch Premieres covered the cost of my two Elites. So i hope that I can sell my Elites to more than cover the cost of the S5 with extended warranty and lifetime service like I did before.
As long as it covers the cost of a new TiVo then I am happy. I will have been able to use my Elites for a while and get a new replacement without any cost to me. And the person that purchases it can get a good deal because I'm not trying to get a ton of profit.

And I have had some issues with the Premieres. I've posted about them when I've run across them. But they have all been minor. Nothing major.

All I know is the Premiere has been a much better option that what Comcast or FiOS uses around here. And if I had been using their DVRs for the last few years I would have spent alot more money than I have with TiVo. Because I own my TiVos and can sell them when finished using them. That makes the break even point happen very quickly when the re-sale value is taken into account.


----------



## atmuscarella

innocentfreak said:


> He may be talking about the people who got the deal from that one online store where they ordered at the new $99 price point prior to the change and were able to get the old lifetime price of $299. This was a pricing mistake though and not a normal deal.
> 
> I know there were a few occasional really good deals on the Premiere by random online stores, but they were from a fairly unknown online store.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=454916


I was aware of the deals some people got from the link you posted and also of the deals some of us got in the mix up when TiVo lowered the purchase price and increased the sub costs. I was one of those lucky people who bought a early released $99 unit and was able to get the old lifetime deals that where on the table (I had a $199 offer still open so my total costs where $300 plus sales tax). But that was nothing TiVo intended on doing and you had to be in the right place at the right time to get those unintended deals so I never listed them in my thread showing pricing options. Outside of that what I listed in my thread showing TiVo pricing is what was offered.


----------



## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> ... So i hope that I can sell my Elites to more than cover the cost of the S5 with extended warranty and lifetime service like I did before.
> As long as it covers the cost of a new TiVo then I am happy. I will have been able to use my Elites for a while and get a new replacement without any cost to me. And the person that purchases it can get a good deal because I'm not trying to get a ton of profit.
> ...
> Because I own my TiVos and can sell them when finished using them. That makes the break even point happen very quickly when the re-sale value is taken into account.


I see a FEW people who are always claiming that they use their Lifetime Service TiVos to pay for the newest model, and get Lifetime Service, and it all winds up costing them nothing (or close to nothing), beyond the initial "investment".

I question the validity of how this is possible. If somebody can share the secret formulation, with supporting math, and I could prove to myself/for myself it works, that would go a long way towards shifting how I feel, and my suspicions about basically "getting something for nothing".

Telling me to list my units on eBay just isn't enough. There's something more to this whole "scheme", than that. Just because one can find TiVos listed on eBay w/LTS, for prices that could pay for the next generation, doesn't mean they are actually SELLING at those prices...


----------



## trip1eX

I predict $500 minimum for 6 tuner model. I definitely will consider coming back if the product and price are right. And if the laggy menus disappear. I hope they ditch Flash.

Just re-jiggered my WMC setup though. Added an extender, SSd boot-up drive and wired the house with Cat6 along with some new quad-shield RG6.


----------



## atmuscarella

nooneuknow said:


> I see a FEW people who are always claiming that they use their Lifetime Service TiVos to pay for the newest model, and get Lifetime Service, and it all winds up costing them nothing (or close to nothing), beyond the initial "investment".
> 
> I question the validity of how this is possible. If somebody can share the secret formulation, with supporting math, and I could prove to myself/for myself it works, that would go a long way towards shifting how I feel, and my suspicions about basically "getting something for nothing".


I don't think most people expect to actually be able to continue to move to the next units with no cost, but because of special offers to existing customers we can many times buy units for allot less than a new customer which keeps the price of used units up because for new users when they compare the price of used units to what they have to pay for new it still seems like they are saving lots of money with the used units.

Plus for some users they have been selling 2 dual tuner units and replacing them with 1, 4 tuner unit. Which is what will happen with me if they release a 4 tuner OTA unit that looks good to me.



nooneuknow said:


> Telling me to list my units on eBay just isn't enough. There's something more to this whole "scheme", than that. Just because one can find TiVos listed on eBay w/LTS, for prices that could pay for the next generation, doesn't mean they are actually SELLING at those prices...


There is no need to guess what something sold for on ebay - it is simple to look up what products actual sold for so there is no question.


----------



## nooneuknow

atmuscarella said:


> Plus for some users they have been selling 2 dual tuner units and replacing them with 1, 4 tuner unit. Which is what will happen with me if they release a 4 tuner OTA unit that looks good to me.


I was tempted to do that same thing, minus the OTA part, and go from Premieres to Premiere 4s. I'm glad I didn't, even though I've just been burdened with having to use Tuning Adapters now (and the upgrade could cut the number of cablecards and TAs in half for me).

From what I've been researching, TiVo, for the most part, just took the already overburdened core components of the 2-tuner, added in some extras, and used tuner chipsets that are behaving like the TiVo HD did for most of it's life, recording nothing, because the tuner failed to tune, or whatever the reason was...

It was one of the TiVo HD's final fixes, before its end-of-life designation. Ironically, I didn't have that problem, until they sent out the "fix" for it. If I could, I'd block that update, and run the prior fix-free release. Unfortunately, we aren't allowed to do that... TiVo basically told me that they were aware that a small percentage of users had the same thing happen, but the numbers weren't big enough to merit even looking into it any further, since it was isolated to small regional cable markets (even though those small markets were just isolated regions of Cox or other big names). Then began the hard-sell on the Premiere. That was TiVo's solution. I had to become a VERY squeaky wheel, in order to get them to grease things enough for me to accept that "solution".

The more I think about it, and the more history just keeps repeating itself, I'm leaning far away from any upgrading, at this time. I consider the Premiere 4 as a sort of Windows ME, or Windows Vista - not worth the "upgrade", with all the kinks/bugs outweighing the extras introduced. Just like I completely skipped Vista, after realizing it was another ME, I think I'll skip the Premiere 4 platform, and wait for what comes next, and then hold-off until at least the first major "Service Pack" update to be deployed, then weigh the pros versus cons at that time.

I'm guessing that since I'm not willing to quickly make the jump, every time TiVo releases something new, that it will make the "no, or little, cost upgrade" cycles that a few are always saying they do, not something I can do, because I'm equally leery about upgrading to every TiVo release, as I am about MS OS releases, and approach them with extreme caution.


----------



## atmuscarella

nooneuknow said:


> ...
> I'm guessing that since I'm not willing to quickly make the jump, every time TiVo releases something new, that it will make the "no, or little, cost upgrade" cycles that a few are always saying they do, not something I can do, because I'm equally leery about upgrading to every TiVo release, as I am about MS OS releases, and approach them with extreme caution.


Frankly I believe your concern is more than justified and a concern I also have. As an OTA only user my Premiere simple does not tune channels as well as my older Series 3 units. I can tell you that at this minute my Premiere is not receiving my local ABC channel at all and my 2 Series 3 units are showing a perfect picture. I know I have intermittent reception issues (all the units are not able to tune my PBS station at this minute) and hope to try some antenna changes to improve it (a good part of the time I have no issues). But if the next OTA unit isn't better than the Premiere I may still have to retain my Series 3 units for times like now.


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> I definitely will consider coming back if the product and price are right. And if the laggy menus disappear. I hope they ditch Flash


They definitely will not be ditching Flash. But the chipset in the next unit should run the UI a lot better. If you use a Mini you'll see how much better the UI can be when running on a proper CPU. The next gen units should have a CPU even better then the Mini.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> They definitely will not be ditching Flash. But the chipset in the next unit should run the UI a lot better. If you use a Mini you'll see how much better the UI can be when running on a proper CPU. The next gen units should have a CPU even better then the Mini.


Agreed. TiVo is committed to Adobe's Flash Platform for TV. The cost of migrating to something else would not justify the investment at this point. I would like to see TiVo and Samsung figure out a way to share apps since Samsung is the most prominent user of Adobe AIR for TV.


----------



## Dan203

sbiller said:


> Agreed. TiVo is committed to Adobe's Flash Platform for TV. The cost of migrating to something else would not justify the investment at this point. I would like to see TiVo and Samsung figure out a way to share apps since Samsung is the most prominent user of Adobe AIR for TV.


That would be nice. However I think TiVo has a slightly unique API they use to link into apps so that they can be launched from search and the selected program started directly.


----------



## aaronwt

nooneuknow said:


> I see a FEW people who are always claiming that they use their Lifetime Service TiVos to pay for the newest model, and get Lifetime Service, and it all winds up costing them nothing (or close to nothing), beyond the initial "investment".
> 
> I question the validity of how this is possible. If somebody can share the secret formulation, with supporting math, and I could prove to myself/for myself it works, that would go a long way towards shifting how I feel, and my suspicions about basically "getting something for nothing".
> 
> Telling me to list my units on eBay just isn't enough. There's something more to this whole "scheme", than that. Just because one can find TiVos listed on eBay w/LTS, for prices that could pay for the next generation, doesn't mean they are actually SELLING at those prices...


For me, i think the key is to sell the previous models soon after the new models are out. Many people don't want to try a brand new model and will still be looking for the older model.

After the new model has been out a while then the price you can get for the older model goes down. Plus if you've increased the storage capacity or have an extended warranty it also helps with the resale. I sold several of the Series 3 on ebay soon after the S4 models came out. I pocketed 80% to 90% of what the lifetime Premieres(non XL) cost me since they had also been upgraded to a larger hard drive years ago.

And I sold my two tuner S4 boxes when the Elite came out. I sold some here at tiVo Community, although I might have sold one or two on ebay, I can't remember. Since each Elite I was getting had four tuners which was replacing two, two tuner, Premieres. I wasn't trying to get an exorbitant value for them. Plus when the Elite first came out, the resale on the two tuner Premieres was higher than it is now.


----------



## mattack

lpwcomp said:


> |View upcoming episodes" is definitely HDUI. Maybe it's "Find by Time" or "Find by Channel" that you're using. Those are still SDUI. Of course, anything that accesses your computer is SDUI and that may never change.


Yeah, it's find by time/find by channel, which I use ALL the time, even though I have zillions of SPs set up. (I often, not always daily, browse through prime time listings for my Favorites channels to find anything I missed.. heck, today I found one reality show premiering tonight that I want to check out.)


----------



## lpwcomp

mattack said:


> Yeah, it's find by time/find by channel, which I use ALL the time, even though I have zillions of SPs set up. (I often, not always daily, browse through prime time listings for my Favorites channels to find anything I missed.. heck, today I found one reality show premiering tonight that I want to check out.)


I just browse via the guide but I understand.

I hope you're not talking about "Siberia".


----------



## Dan203

Wish List and Browse By Time/Channel are the only non-settings screens which are not HD. I'm really hoping the next release will upgrade those to HD. If it does then to me the HDUI will essentially be complete.


----------



## mattack

lpwcomp said:


> I just browse via the guide but I understand.
> 
> I hope you're not talking about "Siberia".


Heh, I only found out via reading articles online that that's a fake reality show (no pun intended).. I didn't watch my recording yet.


----------



## cncb

When do we expect these to be available? I don't currently have a Tivo and I am considering getting a 2-tuner Premiere for the time being but I don't want to waste money if these will be coming out soon.


----------



## sbiller

cncb said:


> When do we expect these to be available? I don't currently have a Tivo and I am considering getting a 2-tuner Premiere for the time being but I don't want to waste money if these will be coming out soon.


I expect September availability based on the timing of the FCC waiver request, the FCC certification on the new RF remote, the pace of sales on current Series 4 hardware, TiVo's late August earnings release, and release dates of previous boxes.


----------



## poofy

sbiller said:


> I expect September availability based on the timing of the FCC waiver request, the FCC certification on the new RF remote, the pace of sales on current Series 4 hardware, TiVo's late August earnings release, and release dates of previous boxes.


He means September 2014! Not couple of months from now.


----------



## Dan203

Seriously though all indications point to them targeting this fall. However the Mini was suppose to hit last fall and got delayed until March of this year, so you never know if they'll actually hit the target or not


----------



## Richard Cranium

sbiller said:


> I expect September availability based on the timing of the FCC waiver request, the FCC certification on the new RF remote, the pace of sales on current Series 4 hardware, TiVo's late August earnings release, and release dates of previous boxes.


You also "expected" a $1.6 BILLION settlement from "MOTO alone."

What's your point?


----------



## Richard Cranium

aaronwt said:


> For me, i think the key is to sell the previous models soon after the new models are out. Many people don't want to try a brand new model and will still be looking for the older model.
> 
> After the new model has been out a while then the price you can get for the older model goes down. Plus if you've increased the storage capacity or have an extended warranty it also helps with the resale. I sold several of the Series 3 on ebay soon after the S4 models came out. I pocketed 80% to 90% of what the lifetime Premieres(non XL) cost me since they had also been upgraded to a larger hard drive years ago.
> 
> And I sold my two tuner S4 boxes when the Elite came out. I sold some here at tiVo Community, although I might have sold one or two on ebay, I can't remember. Since each Elite I was getting had four tuners which was replacing two, two tuner, Premieres. I wasn't trying to get an exorbitant value for them. Plus when the Elite first came out, the resale on the two tuner Premieres was higher than it is now.


Didn't work for me. I practically GAVE away my 2 premieres 6 months after release.

Actually felt bad about sticking someone I knew with them, but they were warned ahead of time.

Buyer beware and all that..l


----------



## sbiller

Richard Cranium said:


> Didn't work for me. I practically GAVE away my 2 premieres 6 months after release.
> 
> Actually felt bad about sticking someone I knew with them, but they were warned ahead of time.
> 
> Buyer beware and all that..l


So why are you still here? You truly are an idiot. How many screen names do you have?


----------



## Richard Cranium

sbiller said:


> You truly are an idiot. How many screen names do you have?


1.6 BILLION!!!!


----------



## compnurd

Richard Cranium said:


> 1.6 BILLION!!!!


yeh that was stupid


----------



## Richard Cranium

compnurd said:


> yeh that was stupid


Yea, but I'm the "idiot".


----------



## Davisadm

Richard Cranium said:


> Didn't work for me. I practically GAVE away my 2 premieres 6 months after release.
> 
> Actually felt bad about sticking someone I knew with them, but they were warned ahead of time.
> 
> Buyer beware and all that..l


You are a fool if you practically gave away your TiVos.


----------



## nooneuknow

Davisadm said:


> You are a fool if you practically gave away your TiVos.


Really? Don't you people have anything better to do than start fires, and throw more gas on them? 

I've seen the same three people in multiple threads, doing nothing more than either flame-baiting, name-calling, telling people to just leave, and/or throwing fuel on fires. That kind of behavior is prohibited, and I sincerely hope those breaking the rules get what should be coming to them.

It's one thing to say "that was a dumb thing to do", as opposed to "you're an idiot". :down:

I'm not even the one under attack (in this instance). I'm sure that's about to change, though... Spare me the "just go away" and the other BS. The only way I'm leaving anywhere is if I want to, or I am kicked-out, by those with the power to make that happen.

To keep somewhat on topic: I think something we should be asking TiVo for, in future updates and/or products, is the ability to pad a program in increments less than 1 minute. Usually, all I need is 5 to 15 seconds. If that were an option, I'd have no complaints about my programs either getting chopped at the end and/or losing anything important at the beginning of a program, due to padding the end of another one.

EDIT/ADD: As suggested by others, in other threads, it would also be nice to start late, stop early, also with less than 1 minute minimums, as well as more shorter increments above 1 minute.


----------



## aaronwt

Lifetime TiVos have always been able to get a decent price. The only TiVos I would consider that I almost gave them away were a couple of S3 boxes I had with upgraded hard drives(750GB) and no service. And even then I got around $140 for them back in May 2010. The Lifetime S3 boxes with upgraded hard drives(1TB) all sold for at least $425 back in May 2010. 

These are the prices I got on ebay. I just looked at my feedback list which shows the price the items sold for.


----------



## Richard Cranium

Davisadm said:


> You are a fool if you practically gave away your TiVos.


I'm a fool for having a conscience? 

Sorry, but the Premire launch was a complete and total FAILURE!! It wasn't even Beta ready when they sprung it on us.

The fact that you think I should have duped someone else because of my exuberance to own the "latest and greatest" says all anyone needs to know.

Sad part is that TiVo lost a customer for life, and I lost a good friend.


----------



## bradleys

I started this thread and for what that is worth, I am not interested in it devloving into name calling. The point of this thread is to share information, knowlege and guesses about the next generation TiVo devices. 

I do not care if you liked the last TiVo launch and I do not care if you gave away our TiVo's. Not on topic and does not move the conversation forward.

Go pick a fight some place else.


----------



## aaronwt

TiVo needs to publish some info about the S5 boxes.


----------



## bradleys

aaronwt said:


> TiVo needs to publish some info about the S5 boxes.


They haven't even really anounced them. Just leaked some information and of course the information gathered from the regulatory filings.

That is why I am amused when people complain that TiVo is going to miss some arbitrary date. TiVo hasn't anounced a date - how could they possibly miss a date they haven't published?


----------



## lessd

bradleys said:


> They haven't even really anounced them. Just leaked some information and of course the information gathered from the regulatory filings.
> 
> That is why I am amused when people complain that TiVo is going to miss some arbitrary date. TiVo hasn't anounced a date - how could they possibly miss a date they haven't published?


Aw come on, missing a date is well missing a date, what difference does it make if that date is not published, you want everything.


----------



## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> TiVo needs to publish some info about the S5 boxes.





bradleys said:


> They haven't even really anounced them. Just leaked some information and of course the information gathered from the regulatory filings.
> 
> That is why I am amused when people complain that TiVo is going to miss some arbitrary date. TiVo hasn't anounced a date - how could they possibly miss a date they haven't published?


I doubt they can announce anything until the FCC grants the waiver. I would expect to see something at CEDIA which is September 25-28th if they are still aiming for a fall release.

TiVo announced the Elite at the beginning of September, and then had the box on display at Cedia 3 weeks later and it was available a week or two later.


----------



## Richard Cranium

bradleys said:


> They haven't even really anounced them. Just leaked some information and of course the information gathered from the regulatory filings.
> 
> That is why I am amused when people complain that TiVo is going to miss some arbitrary date. TiVo hasn't anounced a date - how could they possibly miss a date they haven't published?


They also haven't really announced they're even working on a new product.

What's the point on trying to guess a date for a product that might not even exist?

But if you insist.... Sometime in 2014.

Maybe.


----------



## bradleys

Richard Cranium said:


> They also haven't really announced they're even working on a new product.
> 
> What's the point on trying to guess a date for a product that might not even exist?
> 
> But if you insist.... Sometime in 2014.
> 
> Maybe.


Your condescending tone aside...

We do know that a Series 5 unit is under development through multiple sources both from within TiVo and from partners. (See below)

You're predicting a 2014 launch. Thank you, we all appreciate your contribution to this thread.



BigJimOutlaw said:


> We have a model number -- Series 5/TCD848000
> 
> On the MoCA Alliance webpage, they list devices that are MoCA certified and this was just recently added.
> 
> The head scratcher is that it's MoCA 1.1 certified when the most likely Broadcom chip is 2.0 certified... Going with a separate Entropic or similar solution instead?


----------



## Dan203

Richard Cranium said:


> They also haven't really announced they're even working on a new product.
> 
> What's the point on trying to guess a date for a product that might not even exist?
> 
> But if you insist.... Sometime in 2014.
> 
> Maybe.


No company ever annouces that they're working on a new version of something ahead of time because they don't want to hurt sales of the current unit. The only people that pre-announce products are companies working on something brand new and are trying to generate initial buzz and/or raise venture capital.

That being said TiVo's filing with the FCC specifically said that they are targeting this holiday season for these new boxes. So that's about as defenitive as it gets that they at least intend to release something new this fall. Whether they'll make the deadline remains to be seen, but that's definitely their target.


----------



## Richard Cranium

Dan203 said:


> No company ever annouces that they're working on a new version of something ahead of time because they don't want to hurt sales of the current unit. The only people that pre-announce products are companies working on something brand new and are trying to generate initial buzz and/or raise venture capital.
> 
> That being said TiVo's filing with the FCC specifically said that they are targeting this holiday season for these new boxes. So that's about as defenitive as it gets that they at least intend to release something new this fall. Whether they'll make the deadline remains to be seen, but that's definitely their target.


Good points! I'm just thinking that it shouldn't matter if TiVo "announces" they're coming out with a new retail box. Thats not the market they're targeting anymore so what's the rush? It'll be out when it's out.

Hopefully it's out when it's FINISHED this time, unlike the Premeire fiasco.

I doubt they'll get many MSO customers to "upgrade" or switch either, so they might as well take their time and get it right.


----------



## Richard Cranium

bradleys said:


> Your condescending tone aside...
> 
> We do know that a Series 5 unit is under development through multiple sources both from within TiVo and from partners. (See below)
> 
> Youre predicting a 2014 launch. Thank you, we all appreciate your contribution to this thread.


If I wanted to be "condescending" I would have said "before the Sun turns Super Nova."

Oh.... And sarcasm aside, I appreciate the fact that you appreciate my contribution to the thread.

See how that works?


----------



## SeaFractor

atmuscarella said:


> While streaming on any TiVo "Series 5" hardware should be fine if you are buying a TiVo to have access to Netflix I have a bridge that would make a good investment for you. Pretty much anything that has had it's hardware updated in the last year or 2 (TVs, blu-ray players, gaming consoles, stand alone streaming devices) works fine for streaming, the only reason to buy a TiVo is because you want a DVR and the only reason to upgrade an existing Premiere is because you want t better DVR. If all you want is Netflix or some other streaming service buy a Roku, Apple TV, or better yet a new Panasonic or Samsung TV.


Thanks for "paving over" the issue of streaming. You are right, I shouldn't have purchased the Tivo for anything other than recording live OTA content, like I do.

So if I can't complain about Netflix as being a reason to not purchase another Tivo in the future, I'll then point back to and state that the core feature still has issues periodically as well. And Tivo has had 5 times to get it right, why should I waste it on number 6?

This is the stated problem of recording two episodes, going in to view a pre-recorded episode and having the box reboot and waiting a long period of time. Once I see the dancing Tivo animation, the recording lights will come back on and capture the remainder of the show, but I've lost about a 10 minute window.

One might ask me why I continue to struggle with Tivo? Because I don't wish to subscribe to either cable or Sat, so I need a DVR that works well over OTA.

Unfortunately the Dish "DishPAL DVR" is discontinued and the guide is gone (now defunct for Rovi TVGOS) .

So I'm stuck and hoping that the developers of the software get the problems all squashed.

So if it's solid, I'll think about a gen 6.

Otherwise, until it is working, I'll buy your bridge.


----------



## series5orpremier

What are the odds the FCC would refuse to waive analog for the OTA/cable version and Tivo has a backup plan to include it? I'm mostly an OTA HD user but still have occasional analog cable needs and definitely need more tuners than the two in my Premier XL.


----------



## Bigg

Richard Cranium said:


> I doubt they'll get many MSO customers to "upgrade" or switch either, so they might as well take their time and get it right.


They really want DTA on the old and new units, and they may see 6-tuners as a way to either charge more or get more Mini's out into the field, although in general, they won't be chomping at the bit to upgrade like this forum.



series5orpremier said:


> What are the odds the FCC would refuse to waive analog for the OTA/cable version and Tivo has a backup plan to include it? I'm mostly an OTA HD user but still have occasional analog cable needs and definitely need more tuners than the two in my Premier XL.


Not much. They've already waived a bunch of cable-only units, and OTA is digital now anyways, so that's really a non-issue. It's just cable, and there are tons of old Premieres out there if someone needs analog. Once they release new digital-only units, the eBay supply of the older two-tuner Premieres will probably go up as well as people start replacing systems of Premieres with 6-tuner boxes with Minis.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

series5orpremier said:


> What are the odds the FCC would refuse to waive analog for the OTA/cable version and Tivo has a backup plan to include it? I'm mostly an OTA HD user but still have occasional analog cable needs and definitely need more tuners than the two in my Premier XL.


Well, if any interested parties were against it, such as the NCTA (cable lobby), they would have been all over the waiver request and tried to tear it to shreds. The NCTA would have been the biggest pill about it. That there were no disagreements filed at all from anyone suggests everyone that matters is either for it at best, or don't care at worst.

Chances are good Tivo has a backup plan, but given the FCC's history of approving such waivers (like the Elite's waiver), chances are pretty low that the request gets denied.

If the FCC doesn't want to abandon the analog rule entirely, my guess is, _at worst_, the FCC would do what they often do -- give Tivo a window. Say, a 12-18 month waiver to release the products they're planning to release, and then after that they'll have to request a new waiver for evaluation at that time.


----------



## Dan203

Richard Cranium said:


> Good points! I'm just thinking that it shouldn't matter if TiVo "announces" they're coming out with a new retail box. Thats not the market they're targeting anymore so what's the rush? It'll be out when it's out.
> 
> Hopefully it's out when it's FINISHED this time, unlike the Premeire fiasco.
> 
> I doubt they'll get many MSO customers to "upgrade" or switch either, so they might as well take their time and get it right.


While I doubt MSOs will be upgrading existing equipment they could still be putting pressure on TiVo to release these new units because a few of the key features will effect them...

1) The 4 tuner unit will likely be cheaper to make then the current 4 tuner units.

2) The 6 tuner unit will work better with the Mini and allow them to better compete with the whole home solutions from Dish and DirecTV.

3) The faster hardware will give them a better user experience.

4) The 6 tuner unit will likely have built in Stream capabilities eliminating the need for them to deploy another box for those capabilities. And again allowing them to better compete with the offerings from Dish and DirecTV.

So even if TiVo doesn't care about the retail market there are still compelling reasons for them to want to get these new units out there.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> 1) The 4 tuner unit will likely be cheaper to make then the current 4 tuner units.


Why do you think the new 4-tuner unit is lower cost to TiVo than the current Premiere 4?


----------



## Dan203

Just a guess. But if they plan on making the 4 tuner the new entry level unit then it will need to sell cheaper then the current one. And for that to happen it needs to be cheaper to make.


----------



## wco81

4 tuner DVRs seem to be more common now. There's a good possibility that the components for DVRs are much cheaper now.


----------



## atmuscarella

SeaFractor said:


> Thanks for "paving over" the issue of streaming. You are right, I shouldn't have purchased the Tivo for anything other than recording live OTA content, like I do.


Not trying to "pave over" the issue but given that we can buy the top Roku or Apple TV for under $100 and the fact that DVRs (and gaming consoles,TVs etc.) cost significantly more I would worry about those devices primary function first and only consider stream abilities if there end up being several viable alternatives.



SeaFractor said:


> So if I can't complain about Netflix as being a reason to not purchase another Tivo in the future, I'll then point back to and state that the core feature still has issues periodically as well. And Tivo has had 5 times to get it right, why should I waste it on number 6?
> 
> This is the stated problem of recording two episodes, going in to view a pre-recorded episode and having the box reboot and waiting a long period of time. Once I see the dancing Tivo animation, the recording lights will come back on and capture the remainder of the show, but I've lost about a 10 minute window.


I have not had your issue with my Premiere outside of reception issues my Premiere has been a rock solid DVR. Also you sure can complain about Netflix (or streaming apps in general) after all it is TiVo who pimps their DVRs streaming abilities so they should work and work well.



SeaFractor said:


> One might ask me why I continue to struggle with Tivo? Because I don't wish to subscribe to either cable or Sat, so I need a DVR that works well over OTA.
> 
> Unfortunately the Dish "DishPAL DVR" is discontinued and the guide is gone (now defunct for Rovi TVGOS) .
> 
> So I'm stuck and hoping that the developers of the software get the problems all squashed.
> 
> So if it's solid, I'll think about a gen 6.
> 
> Otherwise, until it is working, I'll buy your bridge.


Well it's a real nice bridge . But I do understand being OTA only myself, unlike you all my issues are reception related and while my Series 3 units are marginally better than my Premiere and my HTPC with HDHomerun (which is about the same as the Premiere) none of my units have been working worth a cap the last few weeks. It has been the worst I have ever seen if this keeps up I will be forced back to Satellite.


----------



## Bigg

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Well, if any interested parties were against it, such as the NCTA (cable lobby), they would have been all over the waiver request and tried to tear it to shreds. The NCTA would have been the biggest pill about it. That there were no disagreements filed at all from anyone suggests everyone that matters is either for it at best, or don't care at worst.
> 
> Chances are good Tivo has a backup plan, but given the FCC's history of approving such waivers (like the Elite's waiver), chances are pretty low that the request gets denied.
> 
> If the FCC doesn't want to abandon the analog rule entirely, my guess is, _at worst_, the FCC would do what they often do -- give Tivo a window. Say, a 12-18 month waiver to release the products they're planning to release, and then after that they'll have to request a new waiver for evaluation at that time.


The NCTA is probably run by the big companies who are all digital or at least fully simulcast, since they put their own all-digital equipment out there to save $$$ as well. It's only a few little rinky-dink providers who aren't fully simulcast or digital-only altogether. Even the big providers who still have analog are behind the curve, Verizon and Comcast don't use analog anymore for anything. It's idiotic to run analog channels when you can put 2 or 3 HD's in the same space.


----------



## nooneuknow

Bigg said:


> ...It's idiotic to run analog channels when you can put 2 or 3 HD's in the same space.


Oh, you must mean like Cox, in Las Vegas, who just forced us to start using tuning adapters on their already 1GHz network, while still continuing to provide analog service. Talk about idiotic...


----------



## Dan203

nooneuknow said:


> Oh, you must mean like Cox, in Las Vegas, who just forced us to start using tuning adapters on their already 1GHz network, while still continuing to provide analog service. Talk about idiotic...


We still have about 35 channels that are analog only. No simulcast and no HD equivelents. Right now I use an Elite for most stuff, but still have to use a regular Premiere for all the analog channels. We've been using TAs for about 3 years now. The only thing I can figure is that they started using SDV to increase bandwidth for OnDemmand, because we have no got any new channels in at least 7 years.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> We still have about 35 channels that are analog only. No simulcast and no HD equivelents. Right now I use an Elite for most stuff, but still have to use a regular Premiere for all the analog channels. We've been using TAs for about 3 years now. The only thing I can figure is that they started using SDV to increase bandwidth for OnDemmand, because we have no got any new channels in at least 7 years.


The issue for these MSOs in abandoning analog is forcing their customers to add DTAs to multiple TVs in their households. I'm sure they would experience increased churn from unhappy customers so its easier for them to maintain the analog footprint at this point...


----------



## qz3fwd

Dan203 said:


> .....only thing I can figure is that they started using SDV to increase bandwidth for OnDemmand, because we have no got any new channels in at least 7 years.


Ouch - that really sucks.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

There is a cable service here in PA, Service Electric, that still has about 70 analogs. They compress the hell out of their digital and HD channels, but at least they simulcast those channels.

Up until recently the only HD premium channels they had were HBO and Showtime. Only in the last month or so they added a couple more HBO and Showtime HD channels. They might have ditched a few analogs recently to make room for them.

We're very lucky to have a rare 3 choices here. Service Electric, RCN and Fios. SE is the only analog hold-out. They picked up a lot of RCN customers when RCN went all-digital a few years ago and forced TA's. They've been holding off on the analog crush as long as possible.

Simulcasting 35 SD channels wouldn't take up _that_ much space. And there's almost no excuse if they're using SDV too. That's really kind of strange.


----------



## lpwcomp

IMHO, changing the granularity of the padding options would be a poor use of TiVos limited resources since:

a. It is of no use to most of their customers

b. I don't believe it would be as easy as some people think.

c. It would constitute an unwarranted difference in whatever platform on which it is implemented and prior platforms.

I would much rather they fix existing problems and make real enhancements.


----------



## innocentfreak

lpwcomp said:


> I would much rather they fix existing problems and make real enhancements.


Some of us consider better padding options an enhancement.

The current padding option is pretty poor. I would much rather have Media Center's padding options where you can pad when available rather than all or nothing.


----------



## lpwcomp

innocentfreak said:


> Some of us consider better padding options an enhancement.


Again IMHO, there aren't enough of you for TiVo to make this a priority.



innocentfreak said:


> The current padding option is pretty poor. I would much rather have Media Center's padding options where you can pad when available rather than all or nothing.


Might be nice but not really of high value. If something needs to be padded in order not to miss part of it, missing it sometimes and not missing it others is worse than the alternative.


----------



## Dan203

One enhancement to padding I'd like to see is the ability to pad two shows back to back on the same channel without it needing two tuners. Seems like it would be simple enough for them to share the data between the two shows. 

Another would be an automatic 1 minute padd on both ends if it doesn't cause a conflict. An extra 2 minutes per show isn't going to hurt anyone's space these days and this would eliminate the frustration of missing that last line or final bit.


----------



## P42

[rant]
Or maybe the broadcasters can get their act together, stop jerking us around, and just start things in proper time slots. The current practice is childish. Yeah, I understand why they do it, but I still think it is a childish practice.
[/rant]


----------



## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> One enhancement to padding I'd like to see is the ability to pad two shows back to back on the same channel without it needing two tuners. Seems like it would be simple enough for them to share the data between the two shows.
> 
> Another would be an automatic 1 minute padd on both ends if it doesn't cause a conflict. An extra 2 minutes per show isn't going to hurt anyone's space these days and this would eliminate the frustration of missing that last line or final bit.


Both simple to describe. Not so simple to implement.


----------



## MeInDallas

Dan203 said:


> Another would be an automatic 1 minute padd on both ends if it doesn't cause a conflict.


Windows Media Center has an option for that, just saying.


----------



## aaronwt

BigJimOutlaw said:


> There is a cable service here in PA, Service Electric, that still has about 70 analogs. They compress the hell out of their digital and HD channels, but at least they simulcast those channels.
> 
> Up until recently the only HD premium channels they had were HBO and Showtime. Only in the last month or so they added a couple more HBO and Showtime HD channels. They might have ditched a few analogs recently to make room for them.
> 
> We're very lucky to have a rare 3 choices here. Service Electric, RCN and Fios. SE is the only analog hold-out. They picked up a lot of RCN customers when RCN went all-digital a few years ago and forced TA's. They've been holding off on the analog crush as long as possible.
> 
> Simulcasting 35 SD channels wouldn't take up _that_ much space. And there's almost no excuse if they're using SDV too. That's really kind of strange.


Each analog SD channel uses as much space as 10 or more SD digital or two HD channels. And that is for a system that doesn't compress alot. When compressing more, like Comcast does is my area, then one analog SD channel takes as much space as three HD channels.

Removing those 35 analog channels would free up alot of space. Enough to add 70 to 105 HD channels. Each analog channel wastes alot of bandwidth.


----------



## innocentfreak

lpwcomp said:


> Again IMHO, there aren't enough of you for TiVo to make this a priority.
> 
> Might be nice but not really of high value. If something needs to be padded in order not to miss part of it, missing it sometimes and not missing it others is worse than the alternative.


Yet it is more reasons why I don't recommend the product to anyone anymore.

It is even a joke on Tosh.0 where he references and now for the part TiVo users never see.


----------



## bareyb

I'm interested. With 6 Tuners available I'd be more likely to buy a Mini. I need at least four tuners just for me.


----------



## nooneuknow

One thing I fail to understand the logic of, is nearly every time somebody comes up with something they would like to see in a new model of TiVo, somebody says how easy it is to state, but how hard it would be to implement.

WHY, should it have to be EASY???

We pay premium prices, for what are supposed to be premium products. Yet, some people seem to think new, or improved, functionality, should only be taken seriously, if it's easy to implement.

With that mindset, why even bother to release new products, other than to call them "new"? The ONLY reason to do that is to make money, by calling it new, designating what came before it "old", and taking money from the masses of people who blindly pay money for anything that is the newest, whether or not is actually worth bothering with, or is anything more than a recycled, re-badged, kludge of the same old, same old, called "new"... It's counterintuitive, but it's a market, all on its own. It's truly sad, that consumers make a market for this type of thing.

There are so many "features" that have existed in nearly every TiVo, that could be improved upon, and haven't been, through each generation.

If I want to watch Netflix, Hulu Plus, play games, and/or interact with social media, I already have multiple existing products that do these things, do them well, and about the only thing none of these products are is a DVR!

So, my wish would be for TiVo to leave these extras to the products that already exist, do them well, and regularly update the features, and fix problems, in a timely fashion, and, instead, FOCUS on producing the very best DVR money can buy, and use the resources of the product to enhance a robust DVR.

You can't even buy many devices anymore, which connect to a TV, that don't have all this extra stuff already in them.

Just think of what TiVo could produce, if they focused on the part they do best: Providing an alternative to a cable company provided DVR.

Sometimes I think some people actually want TiVo's core DVR functionality to stay the same, and not to actually evolve into a better product. What next, Angry Birds on TiVo? Why not, it fits the pattern of TiVo's stale DVR innovation, and the quest for the "One Box"... Like I said, it's sad.

If the highest authority told TiVo engineers to strip out all the extras, that every other device attached to, or built-into, a TV already provides, and prohibited them from anything more than engineering advances, improvements, innovations, and other built-in functionality, that relate to a DVR and improving the DVR experience, interaction with the other devices in a home, just think of what kind of product we could have from TiVo...

I think some of this "That wouldn't be easy to implement, so it's unlikely" talk, is more a reflection/projection of a "Just leave everything like it is and bung-in as many tuners as you possibly can, and do it quickly, because I want something new" mentality.

Again, why should everything people suggest be in a new generation TiVo, or guess may be in one, have to be easy?

IMHO, if everything they add, or change, comes easy, it then shouldn't be worth a price, other than one that reflects how easy it was to make and slap a new model/generation designation onto it.

Edit/Add: The biggest issue I have with consumer electronics manufacturers releasing "new" products, just for the sake of doing so, is that it gives them an easy excuse to stop providing bug-fixes, support, and improvements to existing products, which get premature end-of-life designations, just because of the released "newer" models. This often leaves those with "old" models, designated end-of-life, while there's no real reason those products can't be improved, fixed, or supported. The only indication I see of TiVo making an exception, is that there are reports of an 11.0m software update for the S3 platform (which may only be to resolve the TiVo Desktop cookie issue). There's a thread about this spotted-in-the-wild update, for those who want to check into it, or discuss it.


----------



## lpwcomp

nooneuknow said:


> One thing I fail to understand the logic of, is nearly every time somebody comes up with something they would like to see in a new model of TiVo, somebody says how easy it is to state, but how hard it would be to implement.
> 
> WHY, should it have to be EASY???
> 
> We pay premium prices, for what are supposed to be premium products. Yet, some people seem to think new, or improved, functionality, should only be taken seriously, if it's easy to implement.
> 
> With that mindset, why even bother to release new products, other than to call them "new"? The ONLY reason to do that is to make money, by calling it new, designating what came before it "old", and taking money from the masses of people who blindly pay money for anything that is the newest, whether or not is actually worth bothering with, or is anything more than a recycled, re-badged, kludge of the same old, same old, called "new"... It's counterintuitive, but it's a market, all on its own. It's truly sad, that consumers make a market for this type of thing.
> 
> There are so many "features" that have existed in nearly every TiVo, that could be improved upon, and haven't been, through each generation.
> 
> If I want to watch Netflix, Hulu Plus, play games, and/or interact with social media, I already have multiple existing products that do these things, do them well, and about the only thing none of these products are is a DVR!
> 
> So, my wish would be for TiVo to leave these extras to the products that already exist, do them well, and regularly update the features, and fix problems, in a timely fashion, and, instead, FOCUS on producing the very best DVR money can buy, and use the resources of the product to enhance a robust DVR.
> 
> You can't even buy many devices anymore, which connect to a TV, that don't have all this extra stuff already in them.
> 
> Just think of what TiVo could produce, if they focused on the part they do best: Providing an alternative to a cable company provided DVR.
> 
> Sometimes I think some people actually want TiVo's core DVR functionality to stay the same, and not to actually evolve into a better product. What next, Angry Birds on TiVo? Why not, it fits the pattern of TiVo's stale DVR innovation, and the quest for the "One Box"... Like I said, it's sad.
> 
> If the highest authority told TiVo engineers to strip out all the extras, that every other device attached to, or built-into, a TV already provides, and prohibited them from anything more than engineering advances, improvements, innovations, and other built-in functionality, that relate to a DVR and improving the DVR experience, interaction with the other devices in a home, just think of what kind of product we could have from TiVo...
> 
> I think some of this "That wouldn't be easy to implement, so it's unlikely" talk, is more a reflection/projection of a "Just leave everything like it is and bung-in as many tuners as you possibly can, and do it quickly, because I want something new" mentality.
> 
> Again, why should everything people suggest be in a new generation TiVo, or guess may be in one, have to be easy?
> 
> IMHO, if everything they add, or change, comes easy, it then shouldn't be worth a price, other than one that reflects how easy it was to make and slap a new model/generation designation onto it.
> 
> Edit/Add: The biggest issue I have with consumer electronics manufacturers releasing "new" products, just for the sake of doing so, is that it gives them an easy excuse to stop providing bug-fixes, support, and improvements to existing products, which get premature end-of-life designations, just because of the released "newer" models. This often leaves those with "old" models, designated end-of-life, while there's no real reason those products can't be improved, fixed, or supported. The only indication I see of TiVo making an exception, is that there are reports of an 11.0m software update for the S3 platform (which may only be to resolve the TiVo Desktop cookie issue). There's a thread about this spotted-in-the-wild update, for those who want to check into it, or discuss it.


In the most recent instance, the poster explicitly said it should be easy. Plus given the level of competence exhibited by the current TiVo s/w development team, I really don't want them taking on something difficult until they fix the existing problems and develop a much more robust testing regime.

TiVo is a business. How do you suggest they justify to their stockholders allocating the resources necessary to implement some of these features, particularly on platforms which are generating little if any revenue?


----------



## nooneuknow

lpwcomp said:


> In the most recent instance, the poster explicitly said it should be easy. Plus given the level of competence exhibited by the current TiVo s/w development team, I really don't want them taking on something difficult until they fix the existing problems and develop a much more robust testing regime.
> 
> TiVo is a business. How do you suggest they justify to their stockholders allocating the resources necessary to implement some of these features, particularly on platforms which are generating little if any revenue?


In hindsight, I see I went off on a full-scale, long-winded rant, which I had been trying not to do, by repeatedly not posting anything in this thread, even though I typed up quite a few posts, which I chose not to submit.

However, what are you saying? We should just accept that TiVo is incompetent, in nearly all aspects of their business, other than duping the customer, and we should alter our expectations accordingly? We should not ask them to do anything, except fix existing products, accept that the "new" products, are just "fixed old products" with new model/platform designations?

I'm not trying to be condescending towards you. I do feel TiVo deserves some condescension directed at them, however.


----------



## Bigg

nooneuknow said:


> Oh, you must mean like Cox, in Las Vegas, who just forced us to start using tuning adapters on their already 1GHz network, while still continuing to provide analog service. Talk about idiotic...


Yup, that's pretty idiotic.



sbiller said:


> The issue for these MSOs in abandoning analog is forcing their customers to add DTAs to multiple TVs in their households. I'm sure they would experience increased churn from unhappy customers so its easier for them to maintain the analog footprint at this point...


Comcast did it. Churn to where? I say that ironically, as I live in one of the very, very few places where you could have switched to the other cable company to get analog when Comcast finally killed it. In most places, the cable provider is the only provider to have analog support.

Analog has no place on a modern cable network. Nor does MPEG-2 HD, but that's another story entirely. A network that was running even just an 860mhz plant with all MPEG-4 HD's and no analog would have a boatload of bandwidth. These providers have artificial bandwidth crunches by their unwillingness to get rid of technology that's been dead for 5-10 years.


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## lpwcomp

nooneuknow said:


> However, what are you saying? We should just accept that TiVo is incompetent, in nearly all aspects of their business, other than duping the customer, and we should alter our expectations accordingly? We should not ask them to do anything, except fix existing products, accept that the "new" products, are just "fixed old products" with new model/platform designations?


I'm not saying that at all. Even if TiVo's s/w design and and development process weren't flawed, they do not have unlimited resources AND most of the enhancements being requested benefit a small minority of their customer base, both existing and potential and/or are far more difficult to implement than a lot of people seem to think, particularly if you consider all of the ramifications of making that "simple" change.

How exactly is TiVo "duping" anyone? All prior models of TiVos still work properly and still get guide data updates and they are reportedly fixing the expired cookie problem on all models of TiVo that are affected, i.e. Series 2 and later.

I'm not trying to defend TiVo here, but the main problem is the flawed releases for the Series 4, _*not*_ the lack of enhancements to the Series 3.


----------



## lpwcomp

Bigg posted while I was composing but he did touch on one Series 3 issue that I _*hope*_ TiVo is looking at - MPEG4 support. I have no idea if it is even possible.

One slight modification to my previous post - the S2DT does _*not*_ work "properly" in an all digital setting.


----------



## aaronwt

lpwcomp said:


> Bigg posted while I was composing but he did touch on one Series 3 issue that I _*hope*_ TiVo is looking at - MPEG4 support. I have no idea if it is even possible.
> 
> One slight modification to my previous post - the S2DT does _*not*_ work "properly" in an all digital setting.


The Series 3 does support MPEG4/H.264, it just needs a software update to support it. I think it was in Australia where several years ago their Series 3 boxes were updated to support MPEG4/H.264.

But then the S3 is a old product now. I would think they would want thier customers to purchase a Series 4 or Series 5 TiVo. So I don't see much incentive for them to put out an update so the S3 boxes work with H.264.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> The Series 3 does support MPEG4/H.264, it just needs a software update to support it. I think it was in Australia where several years ago their Series 3 boxes were updated to support MPEG4/H.264.
> 
> But then the S3 is a old product now. I would think they would want thier customers to purchase a Series 4 or Series 5 TiVo. So I don't see much incentive for them to put out an update so the S3 boxes work with H.264.


Unfortunately true. They purposely didn't push the update out to force people to buy newer hardware...


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## Dan203

The S3 had a lifespan. H.264 video never came to fruition in the US while in that lifespan. In fact H.264 didn't really hit for cable until about a year ago, which was well into the lifespan of the S4 box and long after they had EOLed the S3. And while they may technically have the software/hardware to support H.264 on the S3 platform they can't just release it untested. And doing a beta test and potential engineering on a product that was EOLed years ago is not a smart business decision. Had H.264 hit while the S3 was still the primary product they would have released it for sure, but at this point it doesn't make sense.


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> The S3 had a lifespan. H.264 video never came to fruition in the US while in that lifespan. In fact H.264 didn't really hit for cable until about a year ago, which was well into the lifespan of the S4 box and long after they had EOLed the S3. And while they may technically have the software/hardware to support H.264 on the S3 platform they can't just release it untested. And doing a beta test and potential engineering on a product that was EOLed years ago is not a smart business decision. Had H.264 hit while the S3 was still the primary product they would have released it for sure, but at this point it doesn't make sense.


I guess I could see TiVo just being slow and incompetent at updating software, not a plan to force upgrades, given how slow and incompetent they have been with a lot of other software updates, BUT in the case of most companies, I would say this would be a clear case of forcing upgrades.


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## innocentfreak

Bigg said:


> I guess I could see TiVo just being slow and incompetent at updating software, not a plan to force upgrades, given how slow and incompetent they have been with a lot of other software updates, BUT in the case of most companies, I would say this would be a clear case of forcing upgrades.


 how long should a company support a product that is no longer sold or produced?


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## Dan203

Bigg said:


> I guess I could see TiVo just being slow and incompetent at updating software, not a plan to force upgrades, given how slow and incompetent they have been with a lot of other software updates, BUT in the case of most companies, I would say this would be a clear case of forcing upgrades.


It's not any of those things. When the S3 was actively being sold in the US there were no cable companies who had H.264 channels. So it was impossible for them to test an upgrade that included H.264 support. By the time cable companies started to deploy H.264 channels the S3 had not actively been sold for almost 2 years, and even then the number of users effected was a tiny fraction of their user base. They took the time and resources to deploy the feature to their current product line (i.e. the Premiere) but it's perfectly understandable that they didn't go back and release it for a product that hadn't actually been sold for 2 years. Doing so would have required them to dedicate development resources to a product that was no longer generating revenue for them. Plus if it had the added benefit of persuading a few users to upgrade then all the better. But it's not really a "forced upgrade" since even now only a few cable operators even use H.264, and most of them only use it for a hand full of specialty channels.


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## sbiller

Prices guaranteed through mid-August. Could this signal a possible late summer release of the Series 5 boxes?

http://www.wkblog.com/tivo/2013/07/tivo-premiere-dvrs-all-40-50-off/


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## atmuscarella

innocentfreak said:


> how long should a company support a product that is no longer sold or produced?


When we are talking about software it should be a very long time even more so with TiVo as they continue to collect monthly fees.


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## sbiller

atmuscarella said:


> When we are talking about software it should be a very long time even more so with TiVo as they continue to collect monthly fees.


Support is one thing... upgrades are another.

I'm with Dan on this one... H.264 is not a bug fix. TiVo would be better off discounting an upgrade to a Series 4 for the small number of users impacted versus the expense of upgrading the Series 3 to support.


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## bradleys

If the hardware can handle the format, I think they should provide a patch for the S3 models. 

I don't see this as an upgrade, but I do see this as a minimal necessary maintenance release. It would also go a long way to building on brand loyalty that has been eroded over the last couple of years.

If cable companies move aggressively to H.264 standard this will effectively brick the S3 models... Ruining not only current use, but also resale.

Jump on it and the customers will either never know about it and or greatly appreciate the support. Don't do it and deal with significant negative publicity and fallout.


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## slowbiscuit

Under that logic they should've provided a patch so the OLED S3s could use a single M-card, but we see how that went. 

It's not a bug fix, it's a new feature for the tuners and they're not going to do that. The funny thing is that Tivo HDs already handle mpeg4, I think, at least for the podcast videos and for pyTivo transfers.


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## bradleys

I disagree...

The Cable Card issue in the OLED units is a hardware issue, not a software issue. Also, that doesn't brick your unit at all - you can have one cable card or two cable cards and it works just fine.

*IF* the cableco's begin to agressively convert to an H.264 format that action will completely brick the S3 units.

But I agree there are a couple of big *IF's*:


*IF* the Cableco's decide to transition quickly and agressively to the new format.
*IF* the problem is fixable in the S3 units via a software patch.

I would guess that up to half of the actively used TiVo units in the wild are still S3 models. Can you imagine if the Cableco's decided to transition completly over to H.264 in the next 18 months? Half of TiVo's install base would simply disappear! You would see torches and pitchforks in San Jose.

On the other hand - if the Cableco's drag their feet for several years. That install base will continue to shrink year over year and the impact may be less painfull for both TiVo and their customers.



sbiller said:


> Support is one thing... upgrades are another.
> 
> I'm with Dan on this one... H.264 is not a bug fix. TiVo would be better off discounting an upgrade to a Series 4 for the small number of users impacted versus the expense of upgrading the Series 3 to support.


It might be a small number of users today, but if FIOS or COMCAST decide to move entire networks exclusively to the h.264 format then we are talking about a whole new game. I would think offering an upgrade discount to such a huge install base would be far more expensive then deploying a patch.


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## lpwcomp

slowbiscuit said:


> Under that logic they should've provided a patch so the OLED S3s could use a single M-card, but we see how that went.


Only if the OLED S3 h/w is capable of supporting an M-card.



slowbiscuit said:


> It's not a bug fix, it's a new feature for the tuners and they're not going to do that. The funny thing is that Tivo HDs already handle mpeg4, I think, at least for the podcast videos and for pyTivo transfers.


It is not a new feature for the tuners. The tuners don't care. It is detecting and decoding MP4 recordings during playback that would have to be implemented.

Since it has already been done on a similar platform, it _*should*_ be fairly easy to port it to the other S3's but given the state of TiVo s/w development, who knows.


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## lpwcomp

bradleys said:


> On the other hand - if the Cableco's drag their feet for several years. That install base will continue to shrink year over year and the impact may be less painfull for both TiVo and their customers.


That's going to at least partially driven by what percentage of the currently deployed cableco h/w is capable of supporting MP4.


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## CoxInPHX

There have been several reports of both Cox and FiOS customers getting a significant discount from TiVo on a Series 4 when they pushed the issue of not supporting H.264 on their S3 units. That is a much more cost effective way of dealing with the very limited H.264 support issue.

I don't understand why it is even an issue unless you are with Cox or FiOS at this point.


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## innocentfreak

bradleys said:


> I disagree...
> 
> The Cable Card issue in the OLED units is a hardware issue, not a software issue. Also, that doesn't brick your unit at all - you can have one cable card or two cable cards and it works just fine.
> 
> *IF* the cableco's begin to agressively convert to an H.264 format that action will completely brick the S3 units.
> 
> But I agree there are a couple of big *IF's*:
> 
> 
> *IF* the Cableco's decide to transition quickly and agressively to the new format.
> *IF* the problem is fixable in the S3 units via a software patch.
> 
> I would guess that up to half of the actively used TiVo units in the wild are still S3 models. Can you imagine if the Cableco's decided to transition completly over to H.264 in the next 18 months? Half of TiVo's install base would simply disappear!
> 
> On the other hand - if the Cableco's drag their feet for several years. That install base will continue to shrink year over year and the impact may be less painfull for both TiVo and their customers.
> 
> I would think offering an upgrade discount to such a huge install base would be far more expensive then deploying a patch.


Again I ask how long should a company support a product that hasn't been sold for over three years? In 2010 the Premiere was released and the TiVo HD was all but out of stock shortly before that.


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## bradleys

innocentfreak said:


> Again I ask how long should a company support a product that hasn't been sold for over three years? In 2010 the Premiere was released and the TiVo HD was all but out of stock shortly before that.


My answer is - how large is the _affected _install base of that product? Today the deployment of h.264 is very narrow so the affected base is very small.

I do not think TiVo should provide any functionality updates to the S3 platform. If you want streaming, or mobile app functionality - upgrade. You still get what you paid for when you purchased your S3 unit.

The difference in this case is a potential for wholesale bricking of these last gen units. The patch has been written - barring any really weird differences that we may not know about - that patch is 80% done.

I suspect that this is going to be a slow migration. If that is true, then TiVo can safely wait it out not do anything. But... If one of the big 3 decides to pull the trigger on h.264 network wide - you will see a patch.


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## atmuscarella

innocentfreak said:


> Again I ask how long should a company support a product that hasn't been sold for over three years? In 2010 the Premiere was released and the TiVo HD was all but out of stock shortly before that.


The simple answer is as long as it makes economic sense. Look how long Microsoft has supported XP. Of course TiVo will have to guess if fixing the software makes economic sense or not. That guess will be based on data that we do not have, like knowing exactly how many Series 3 units are being used on the effected cable systems. Also as this change spreads to more cable systems TiVo will have data on what percentage of people affected upgrade to a new TiVo versus dumping TiVo all together. I am also guessing that if the new hardware that we are expecting this fall turns out to be a big improvement over the Premiere that it will help Series 3 user be more willing to upgrade, even more so if TiVo gives them a deal.


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## Dan203

bradleys said:


> I suspect that this is going to be a slow migration. If that is true, then TiVo can safely wait it out not do anything. But... If one of the big 3 decides to pull the trigger on h.264 network wide - you will see a patch.


Not gonna happen. They have a ton of their own equipment in the field that is not H.264 capable. Making a complete switch would cost too much. By the time they make a total conversion to H.264 we may be talking about the Series 6


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## bradleys

> I suspect that this is going to be a slow migration


 

I do agree that it is unlikely that any of the majors will convert enmass, and if that does not happen, TiVo will not feel any pressure to provide a patch for the new format.

But I do think it is time for me to sell my remaining S3 units before the value starts to fall off. Just waiting on the S5!


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## Joe3

waiting on the S5!?

Those of us who bought the S3 at the time, bought on the quality of a premium product and paid for it. The complaints on the S3 were nothing like the out cry and out rage garnered from later cheap line of DVR's.

There was an out cry that it was too expensive! So Tivo started making a cheap DVR's to mollify that crowd that they were convinced would be a bigger market. They failed. Cheap is Cheap and they should have never gotten away from their premium line by playing a marketing word play with the product known as "Premiere". 

If they don't bring back a premium quality line with the S5 and they keep with cheap junk that they have been peddling or if they don't offer a true choice (not just in hard drive) but in quality on the whole DVR, forget about them.

Whose having the last laugh now? The original S3 owners that paid the high-price for a premium DVR that had a quarter of the problems and has had their investment paid back to them (with Lifetime) again and again.


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## aaronwt

I'll take any of my S4 boxes over the three OLED s3 boxes and five TiVo HD boxes I've owned. The S4 has been better in almost every way.


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## bradleys

Joe3 said:


> waiting on the S5!?


I purchased my OLED S3 christmas 2006, added an HD model a year later and picked up a Premier in mid 2010... (OLED was $800 + lifetime service)

I have been pretty happy with all my units - I keep the Premier in the Family Room and it gets the majority of use, I keep the HD in the Media room and it is gets second highest use. The OLED S3? Sitting in my bedroom and barely gets used at all.

The Premier has always had faster transistions then my S3 units even with the HDUI. The difference is so significant now that I cannot stand going back to one of the older ones.


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## atmuscarella

Joe3 said:


> waiting on the S5!?
> 
> Those of us who bought the S3 at the time, bought on the quality of a premium product and paid for it. The complaints on the S3 were nothing like the out cry and out rage garnered from later cheap line of DVR's.
> 
> There was an out cry that it was too expensive! So Tivo started making a cheap DVR's to mollify that crowd that they were convinced would be a bigger market. They failed. Cheap is Cheap and they should have never gotten away from their premium line by playing a marketing word play with the product known as "Premiere".
> 
> If they don't bring back a premium quality line with the S5 and they keep with cheap junk that they have been peddling or if they don't offer a true choice (not just in hard drive) but in quality on the whole DVR, forget about them.
> 
> Whose having the last laugh now? The original S3 owners that paid the high-price for a premium DVR that had a quarter of the problems and has had their investment paid back to them (with Lifetime) again and again.


Have you actually compared the various Series 3 & Premiere DVRs directly?

I have, and currently have an Original Series 3, TiVo HD, & Premiere all sitting in the same cabinet attached to the same TV. There is only one place where the Premiere isn't equal or superior to the original Series 3 & TiVo HD and that is in dealing with certain OTA multi-path reception issues. Of course if you are using your DVR for OTA and happen to have those type issues that is a big deal, (like I am & do) but otherwise not so much.

Did/does the Premiere have issues with the HDUI - certainly and at the begining the HDUI was almost not usable, but that was/is a software issue not a hardware issue. We have always been able to use the SDUI and when using the SDUI the Premiere has always been very fast and pretty much problem free (at least for me).

At this point in time I think all three of my HD TiVo's are excellent DVRs, but if I use the SDUI in the Premiere it clearly has superior performance compared to the 2 Series 3 units and if I use the HDUI is has performance on par with the Series 3 units with superior functionality. Either way the Premiere is an upgrade to my Series 3 units.


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## trip1eX

Premiere was irritating for these reasons.

Laggy UI. It really hurts your experience when much of your interaction with the device is through this UI.

Some menus HD. Some still SD. I could live with this. But it always gave the impression of a half-finished product.

Terrible 3rd party apps. Netflix was atrocious when I had a Premiere a few years back. Crashed all the time. The other apps as I recall were equally bad.

Less than desirable streaming of your own media options from your computer.

lack of improvement. Ok the UI improved some, for example, it showed a description of a show in the sidebar without having to click all the way through. But other things bugged like the talked about back to back recording of shows on the same channel especially when it came to recording football games on Sundays. I can't believe they hadn't dealt with that yet. Now that I think about (it) I probably could have just scheduled it to record x and y channels for 7 hours each every week from 12-7 CST right? And just dealt with the extra 3-6 hours of recording. Am I correct here? I could have just done that and set it up weekly? I haven't had a Premiere in a few years so maybe it didn't work that way. But if it does work that way what a Doh!!? moment for me. Anyway I was expecting some more improvement with the whole recording shows thing. WMC has some decent improvements over what Tivo does. 

It was fairly expensive and still only had 2 tuners and little storage space when it first came out.

No On-Demand which only helped make your crappy cable dvr more attractive.

You had to buy another $800+ Premiere in order to watch shows on a 2nd tv.

Those were my beefs with the Premiere when it came out. I have no first-hand knowledge of any improvements since. I hope the Series 5 pulls a rabbit out of a hat.


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## bradleys

Trip1ex

I think your critiques are fair... Some of that has improved over time and others are inherent to both the S3 and the S4 model lines.

What I am looking for in the S5 line is a stronger processor, more tuners and the hub and spoke implementation with distributed Mini's.

The stronger processor should allow the TiVo to handle the OTT apps in a more stable manner. This I think will encourge content providers to partner with TiVo more then they have been willing to do so far.

I would love to see streaming of your own media... I am hoping / suspecting that a new TiVo desktop is on the horizon as well. We can only guess if that functionality is forthcoming at this time.

I do hear a lot of people argue there is no reason to upgrade their TiVo from say the S3 to the S4 and now ultimately the S5. And if you are only looking for a base DVR then you are correct.

But you have the functionality you have. You are not getting anything more in a legacy product. If what you have meets your needs then there is no need to upgrade.


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## nooneuknow

lpwcomp said:


> Only if the OLED S3 h/w is capable of supporting an M-card...


I thought it was a requirement that ALL M-Cards be backward compatible with S-Card devices, as in the M-Card falls back into S-Card mode. Then you have to use two M-Cards, one in each S-Card slot. Am I wrong?

I'll stay out of the rest of the mayhem here for a while...


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## atmuscarella

trip1eX said:


> You had to buy another $800+ Premiere in order to watch shows on a 2nd tv.
> 
> Those were my beefs with the Premiere.


The dual tuner Premiere with lifetime never cost $800. The absolute worst case would have been $700 for the first one and $600 for the second and you would have had to try hard to have paid that much. However for most of it's life the dual tuner Premiere has been offered to existing customers for $500+/- with lifetime almost continuously.


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## Bigg

innocentfreak said:


> how long should a company support a product that is no longer sold or produced?


Some of the S3's weren't that old when MPEG-4 started rolling out and TiVo wouldn't do the update. I'd say they should support at least 48 months from the last new unit sold, as that's the depreciation period that makes TiVo make sense from a cost perspective.



Dan203 said:


> It's not any of those things. When the S3 was actively being sold in the US there were no cable companies who had H.264 channels. So it was impossible for them to test an upgrade that included H.264 support. By the time cable companies started to deploy H.264 channels the S3 had not actively been sold for almost 2 years, and even then the number of users effected was a tiny fraction of their user base. They took the time and resources to deploy the feature to their current product line (i.e. the Premiere) but it's perfectly understandable that they didn't go back and release it for a product that hadn't actually been sold for 2 years. Doing so would have required them to dedicate development resources to a product that was no longer generating revenue for them. Plus if it had the added benefit of persuading a few users to upgrade then all the better. But it's not really a "forced upgrade" since even now only a few cable operators even use H.264, and most of them only use it for a hand full of specialty channels.


Now it's FIOS, which covers a pretty good chunk of relatively wealthy people. There's really no excuse for that in the first place. They could have sent it out with MPEG-4 support originally. I'm sure CableLabs and others have test beds that can test MPEG-4 or just about anything else you can dream of in a lab environment.



slowbiscuit said:


> Under that logic they should've provided a patch so the OLED S3s could use a single M-card, but we see how that went.
> 
> It's not a bug fix, it's a new feature for the tuners and they're not going to do that. The funny thing is that Tivo HDs already handle mpeg4, I think, at least for the podcast videos and for pyTivo transfers.


You can work around the M-Card thing for $1.50/mo, and you knew what you were getting into when you bought it. There is no way to work around MPEG-4.


----------



## Bigg

trip1eX said:


> No On-Demand which only helped make your crappy cable dvr more attractive.


I agree with a lot of what you said about the laggy UI and such, but the Premiere does support VOD, it's just up to the cable provider to support it. Blame your cable company if they chose not to support it. Not that VOD is that great in the first place.


----------



## lpwcomp

nooneuknow said:


> I thought it was a requirement that ALL M-Cards be backward compatible with S-Card devices, as in the M-Card falls back into S-Card mode. Then you have to use two M-Cards, one in each S-Card slot. Am I wrong?
> 
> I'll stay out of the rest of the mayhem here for a while...


Supporting an m-card running in single stream mode is not the same as supporting it in multi-stream mode.


----------



## nooneuknow

lpwcomp said:


> Supporting an m-card running in single stream mode is not the same as supporting it in multi-stream mode.


Isn't that what I said? Tell me how what I posted would speak otherwise. Back off. It was a question, to make sure I knew what I thought I did.

I don't recall saying anything at all that would be leading anybody to possibly believe that running an M-Card in S-Card mode was the same.

My curiosity, was simply if there may be some TiVo, which I was unaware of, with some problem with running an M-card, at all... So very simple.


----------



## bradleys

The OLED TiVo was designed to handle a multi stream card prior to a card being avaiable. Unfortunately, once the m-card finally came on the market it wasn't compatible with the TiVo in multi stream mode.

Hardware issue...


----------



## zalusky

nooneuknow said:


> Isn't that what I said? Tell me how what I posted would speak otherwise. Back off. It was a question, to make sure I knew what I thought I did.
> 
> I don't recall saying anything at all that would be leading anybody to possibly believe that running an M-Card in S-Card mode was the same.
> 
> My curiosity, was simply if there may be some TiVo, which I was unaware of, with some problem with running an M-card, at all... So very simple.


I would say that a better phrasing is that newer M cards are compatible with S-CARD slots. I remember in the beginning some of the M cards did not work and we had to make sure they were the latest and greatest.


----------



## morac

bradleys said:


> The OLED TiVo was designed to handle a multi stream card prior to a card being avaiable. Unfortunately, once the m-card finally came on the market it wasn't compatible with the TiVo in multi stream mode.
> 
> Hardware issue...


Partially correct. A TiVo spokesman (TivoPony) once said that it was technically possible to add full M-card support to the OLED S3, but that doing so would be very difficult and could cause problems so they didn't bother trying. I don't know how much of that was truth and how much was BS, but that was what was said. If it was a hardware only issue, I doubt it could be potentially fixed in software.


----------



## lpwcomp

nooneuknow said:


> Isn't that what I said? Tell me how what I posted would speak otherwise. Back off. It was a question, to make sure I knew what I thought I did.
> 
> I don't recall saying anything at all that would be leading anybody to possibly believe that running an M-Card in S-Card mode was the same.
> 
> My curiosity, was simply if there may be some TiVo, which I was unaware of, with some problem with running an M-card, at all... So very simple.


And I was simply clarifying the issue for you and informing you that it is irrelevant whether or not an m-card will work in single stream mode. What was being complained about and has been complained about for years is that the original S3 continued to require 2 cards even after the m-cards became available. There are some posts that indicate TiVo had at least implied that multi-stream support would be added.

I don't know as my first S3 was a THD purchased in 2008 and has never had anything but a single m-card.


----------



## nooneuknow

lpwcomp said:


> And I was simply clarifying the issue for you and informing you that it is irrelevant whether or not an m-card will work in single stream mode. What was being complained about and has been complained about for years is that the original S3 continued to require 2 cards even after the m-cards became available. There are some posts that indicate TiVo had at least implied that multi-stream support would be added.
> 
> I don't know as my first S3 was a THD purchased in 2008 and has never had anything but a single m-card.


OK, that's better. I, too, never have owned a S3 OLED. I have four TiVo HDs. So, I'm familiar with the two slots. I also, recall reading on here about how the S3 OLED was *supposed to* work the same way, but didn't.

In the scenario, where you have to rent two M-cards, each running in S-Card mode, I can see why people would be angry. As much as I feel TiVo is at the opposite end of "being all it can be", I would think that if it was anything other than hardware, it would have been fixed, long ago. Even hardware issues sometimes have software "workarounds", like the TiVo HD grey/black screen tuner issue. It took until well beyond the end of production (end-of-life point), for TiVo to issue that patch, just prior to 11.0K. Then enter the Premieres, the Premiere 4s, and all the issues they have, or have had, and how much time it takes for them to make them less frustrating to own... I fully expect, nothing less, than to be majorly underwhelmed by whatever comes next. The S3 will always need two cards to have two tuners. The HD will always have some issues, that remain unresolved. Sometimes I picture the TiVo R&D department as a heaping pile of smoking TiVo units, and the first one that doesn't explode, or catch on fire, gets put into production, released with "just barely" software, and by the time it reaches end-of-life, it may be a cool product to own, that truly provides entertainment and enjoyment, making cableco DVRs unthinkable to use. I think what truly drives many to TiVo, is the ability to expand capacity, and tinker.

If I could make it happen, I'd solidify the TiVo user base against buying any newer product, until TiVo fixes/finishes what they already sold. Somebody made a good point about how, unless lifetime service is involved, we still pay TiVo every month to use our existing equipment, no matter how old it is. Unfortunately, it seems most of the TiVo user base will buy ANYTHING TiVo releases. It's a phenomenon, which hurts those of us that can't afford the upgrading. The way I see it, the original Premiere, is currently the product it SHOULD HAVE BEEN, the day it was released to retail. It still has a lot of issues to address, and instead of focusing on that, TiVo is shifting effort to release something "new". Unfortunately, people will buy it.


----------



## aaronwt

Why wouldn't I buy it? I'll sell my S4 boxes to cover the cost of the new hardware. And have zero to very little out of pocket cost to me. I would be crazy not to upgrade.

And in the process I'll eventually be down to one cable card. I had eight cable cards(ten if you count when I had Comcast and FiOS) at one time when I had my OLED S3 boxes and TiVoHD boxes. 
When I'm finally down to one cable card that will be only $4 a month in cable card fees. At one point I was paying $24 a month for cable cards.


----------



## lpwcomp

aaronwt said:


> Why wouldn't I buy it? I'll sell my S4 boxes to cover the cost of the new hardware. And have zero to very little out of pocket cost to me. I would be crazy not to upgrade.
> 
> And in the process I'll eventually be down to one cable card. I had eight cable cards(ten if you count when I had Comcast and FiOS) at one time when I had my OLED S3 boxes and TiVoHD boxes.
> When I'm finally down to one cable card that will be only $4 a month in cable card fees. At one point I was paying $24 a month for cable cards.


If I understand your sig correctly, you currently have 10 tuners available. How is one box going to replace that?


----------



## bradleys

I will absolutely upgrade as well. 

As I have said, I would go as for as saying that I am VERY happy with all the TiVo's I have owned. Yes, I have some annoyances in some models - but nothing that would make me rise up and storm the TiVo campus.

I have three TiVo's all with lifetime. I should be able to get $300 each for my OLED and HD models. I will keep the Premier and purchase one Six tuner S5 and one Mini for the bedroom. 

That will refresh my hardware for what; a $200 - $300 investment?

You are dang right I am going to upgrade!

Holding off and allowing your boxes to continue to age and loose value just out of some sense of spite is a great strategy, but I will not be following you off that cliff. I might also add, this is another expample of the value of lifetime service.


----------



## bradleys

lpwcomp said:


> If I understand your sig correctly, you currently have 10 tuners available. How is one box going to replace that?


He may not necessarily be trying to replace all ten tuners, just a better allocation of the tuners he has.

That is the value proposistion of the Hub and Spoke vs a Distributed design.


----------



## aaronwt

lpwcomp said:


> If I understand your sig correctly, you currently have 10 tuners available. How is one box going to replace that?


My two Elites will be replaced by one, six tuner, S5 box. I'll still keep my OTA only Premiere. I'll have less tuners but as long as Dymanic Tuner allocation is implemented for my two Minis, I should have the bare minimum of tuners I'll need for my recordings.


----------



## lpwcomp

bradleys said:


> He may not necessarily be trying to replace all ten tuners, just a better allocation of the tuners he has.
> 
> That is the value proposistion of the Hub and Spoke vs a Distributed design.


Then I don't understand why he has 3 TiVos w/10 tuners if he only needs 6 tuners.


----------



## lpwcomp

aaronwt said:


> My two Elites will be replaced by one, six tuner, S5 box. I'll still keep my OTA only Premiere. I'll have less tuners but as long as Dymanic Tuner allocation is implemented for my two Minis, I should have the bare minimum of tuners I'll need for my recordings.


Ah. If I had known that the Premiere was OTA only and that you were keeping it, it would have made sense.


----------



## bradleys

lpwcomp said:


> Then I don't understand why he has 3 TiVos w/10 tuners if he only needs 6 tuners.


In my case it makes a lot of sense.

I have a TiVo in my Family room, a TiVo in my Bedroom and a TiVo in my Media room that also feeds a TV in the game room. If I couldn't split the Media room TiVo I would need to add another box for that TV I would have a total of 8 Tuners.

With a 6 Tuner TiVo in the Family room and 3 Mini's I could easily reduce the number of tuners. I do not use all the tuners, but I do need to provide a signal to all these nodes.

And frankly, with 6 cooperative tuners I will get much more value out of the tuners that I do own.


----------



## atmuscarella

aaronwt said:


> My two Elites will be replaced by one, six tuner, S5 box. I'll still keep my OTA only Premiere. I'll have less tuners but as long as Dymanic Tuner allocation is implemented for my two Minis, I should have the bare minimum of tuners I'll need for my recordings.


Our better yet if they release a S5 4 tuner OTA unit you could buy that and replace the Premiere also. Back to 10 tuners and all new latest addition hardware.


----------



## atmuscarella

nooneuknow said:


> ...
> If I could make it happen, I'd solidify the TiVo user base against buying any newer product, until TiVo fixes/finishes what they already sold. Somebody made a good point about how, unless lifetime service is involved, we still pay TiVo every month to use our existing equipment, no matter how old it is. Unfortunately, it seems most of the TiVo user base will buy ANYTHING TiVo releases. It's a phenomenon, which hurts those of us that can't afford the upgrading. The way I see it, the original Premiere, is currently the product it SHOULD HAVE BEEN, the day it was released to retail. It still has a lot of issues to address, and instead of focusing on that, TiVo is shifting effort to release something "new". Unfortunately, people will buy it.


I am all for TiVo supporting software updates for existing units but not moving forward with updated hardware would assure TiVo's failure. The Premiere's hardware is out dated and not able to perform the tasks and at the level that people want. TiVo needs to get an updated 6 tuner whole home system out there yesterday and an updated entry level 4 tuner combined OTA/Cable unit wouldn't hurt.


----------



## lpwcomp

bradleys said:


> In my case it makes a lot of sense.
> 
> I have a TiVo in my Family room, a TiVo in my Bedroom and a TiVo in my Media room that also feeds a TV in the game room. If I couldn't split the Media room TiVo I would need to add another box for that TV I would have a total of 8 Tuners.
> 
> With a 6 Tuner TiVo in the Family room and 3 Mini's I could easily reduce the number of tuners. I do not use all the tuners, but I do need to provide a signal to all these nodes.
> 
> And frankly, with 6 cooperative tuners I will get much more value out of the tuners that I do own.


Your case is different but while going to 6 cooperative tuners simplifies _*your*_ "job" as it were, I do not see how you are getting more value.

IMHO, it requires more than just dynamic tuner allocation in order for a mini to be a full replacement for a TiVo. You need to be able to start a recording on the active tuner and save the live buffer.

Distributed processing has at least one advantage over hub and spoke - one less single point of full failure.


----------



## atmuscarella

lpwcomp said:


> Distributed processing has at least one advantage over hub and spoke - one less single point of full failure.


That has always been my opinion plus with only 1 DVR you have limited storage without moving recordings to a computer (which isn't possible for everyone anymore). That said if they do release a 4 tuner OTA unit I will buy it and replace 2 of my current units.


----------



## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> Why wouldn't I buy it? I'll sell my S4 boxes to cover the cost of the new hardware. And have zero to very little out of pocket cost to me. I would be crazy not to upgrade.
> 
> And in the process I'll eventually be down to one cable card. I had eight cable cards(ten if you count when I had Comcast and FiOS) at one time when I had my OLED S3 boxes and TiVoHD boxes.
> When I'm finally down to one cable card that will be only $4 a month in cable card fees. At one point I was paying $24 a month for cable cards.


No offense intended, but you are part of the class of TiVo users/buyers "anomaly" I described, where you blindly buy whatever TiVo releases next. You then *seem to* always state you don't have issues that others report. If anybody calls you out on that, you then say that you might be experiencing some issues, "but, they are only minor ones".

I'm never going to back down from reporting my experiences, and reporting when I'm not alone, just because you always are at the opposite end of the spectrum.

There's NOTHING WRONG with what you do, UNLESS you set out on a crusade to convince people that based on your experiences/interpretations of what grade an issue is needs to be based on your own, thus *basically* telling everybody else their experiences/interpretations are wrong, with a very high bias.

I do take the time to make sure that I "take it all in", and make sure that I'm not the only one who has experiences/interpretations of new TiVo products. I'm fully aware, that there will be defective units, which find their way to small numbers, and then it is only those unfortunate souls who suffer the worst.

I'm still so intrigued by your bias, that I still wonder if you aren't part of a covert stealth effort to do PR for TiVo, under the guise of being an everyday Joe. Again, no offense intended. It just looks like PR, smells like PR, walks like PR, and talks like PR. I think we all know what the rest of that borrowed analogy ends with.


----------



## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> Our better yet if they release a S5 4 tuner OTA unit you could buy that and replace the Premiere also. Back to 10 tuners and all new latest addition hardware.


I mainly use my OTA only Premiere to take recordings from FIOS over to my GFs house. But it can also be used as a backup if my FiOS connection goes down.


----------



## aaronwt

nooneuknow said:


> No offense intended, but you are part of the class of TiVo users/buyers "anomaly" I described, where you blindly buy whatever TiVo releases next. You then *seem to* always state you don't have issues that others report. If anybody calls you out on that, you then say that you might be experiencing some issues, "but, they are only minor ones".
> 
> I'm never going to back down from reporting my experiences, and reporting when I'm not alone, just because you always are at the opposite end of the spectrum.
> 
> There's NOTHING WRONG with what you do, UNLESS you set out on a crusade to convince people that based on your experiences/interpretations of what grade an issue is needs to be based on your own, thus *basically* telling everybody else their experiences/interpretations are wrong, with a very high bias.
> 
> I do take the time to make sure that I "take it all in", and make sure that I'm not the only one who has experiences/interpretations of new TiVo products. I'm fully aware, that there will be defective units, which find their way to small numbers, and then it is only those unfortunate souls who suffer the worst.
> 
> I'm still so intrigued by your bias, that I still wonder if you aren't part of a covert stealth effort to do PR for TiVo, under the guise of being an everyday Joe. Again, no offense intended. It just looks like PR, smells like PR, walks like PR, and talks like PR. I think we all know what the rest of that borrowed analogy ends with.


I have not been called out on anything. If I notice any issues I have always posted about them. I have never said any TiVo was problem free. Heck I've never owned any electronic device that was problem free. Every device out there has has some type of issue, they are just typically minor issues. Of course it really depends on how you use the device. What is considered minor to one person could be considered major to another.


----------



## sbiller

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9727692#post9727692


----------



## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> I have not been called out on anything. If I notice any issues I have always posted about them. I have never said any TiVo was problem free. Heck I've never owned any electronic device that was problem free. Every device out there has has some type of issue, they are just typically minor issues. Of course it really depends on how you use the device. What is considered minor to one person could be considered major to another.


I definitely agree here. The way I use my TiVo I never seem to see the issues other complain about. I also do things completely different then most people. KMTTG is my go to tool for just about everything.


----------



## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> I have not been called out on anything. If I notice any issues I have always posted about them. I have never said any TiVo was problem free. Heck I've never owned any electronic device that was problem free. Every device out there has has some type of issue, they are just typically minor issues. Of course it really depends on how you use the device. What is considered minor to one person could be considered major to another.


I just want to say, I DO appreciate the civility in how you respond. I'm so tired of the trolls, politic-like ways that people tend to revert to, personal attacks, and how some act like a rabid dog, that has been cornered.

This isn't the first time I've implied my suspicions that you are doing covert PR for TiVo. What stands out, is that you chose not to confirm, or deny it.

I understand you may have your reasons. So, I'll try and back off on that matter.

So, moving along, do you experience the major issue that others have reported, with the 4-tuner units? Do you get un-tuned channels, with black screens? Are you somehow blessed without having to deal with that? That well-reported issue has been the very reason I have stacks of 2-tuner models, and pay for twice as many cable cards, every month.

After having to live with the, basically, same issue on HD units, which TiVo refused to acknowledge was even an issue, until they were certain they had a fix, which rolled out past the end-of-life point, I don't want to be thrust into the same situation, should I choose to move from 2-tuner, to 4-tuner models. Given the speed, more like lack thereof, of TiVo's fixes, from experience (which has been shared experience), that's the biggest step I'm willing to take, at this time. I'm unwilling to buy any newer product, on blind-faith alone. If others do buy the newest product, and report no such issue, and that holds for some time, then, and only then, will I consider a bigger leap of faith.

If your units are so very well made, and so very well working, maybe I should arrange to be the buyer for your units, and put faith in you, and that you are telling the whole truth.

Here's something I'd like for you to consider: If you were forced to ONLY run the software that came factory-installed on all your Tivos, would it change your perspective, at all? It's just a curiosity, and a well-thought-over, honest answer would be much appreciated.


----------



## innocentfreak

nooneuknow said:


> So, moving along, do you experience the major issue that others have reported, with the 4-tuner units? Do you get un-tuned channels, with black screens? Are you somehow blessed without having to deal with that? That well-reported issue has been the very reason I have stacks of 2-tuner models, and pay for twice as many cable cards, every month.


I can only say for me, but I have never once seen this issue on my Elite.


----------



## atmuscarella

nooneuknow said:


> Here's something I'd like for you to consider: If you were forced to ONLY run the software that came factory-installed on all your Tivos, would it change your perspective, at all? It's just a curiosity, and a well-thought-over, honest answer would be much appreciated.


I am uncertain what you mean by this, I was unaware that anyone was running anything but factory software on their Premiere units. Or are you talking about the stuff people use on there PCs?

I don't have a Premiere 4/XL4 as I am only OTA but I have not seen many issues with my Premiere beyond not being able to deal with OTA multipath reception issues as well as the older Series 3 boxes do (as a side note my HDHomerun OTA tuner is on par with the Premiere). Even back when people where calling the Premiere a big piece of sh** mine was working fine. I will admit I continued to use the SDUI for a long time as I liked using the same UI on all my units but have finally moved to the HDUI even through I really don't care one way or the other about it.


----------



## ggieseke

innocentfreak said:


> I definitely agree here. The way I use my TiVo I never seem to see the issues other complain about.


+1

I use my TiVos as DVRs and they do a pretty darn good job. My HTPC, smart TV, and Roku handle everything else. It's individual preference but I don't expect anything do do every job perfectly or to ever find a true "one" box.


----------



## nooneuknow

atmuscarella said:


> I am uncertain what you mean by this, I was unaware that anyone was running anything but factory software on their Premiere units. Or are you talking about the stuff people use on there PCs?


What I meant, and honestly thought was clear, is a hypothetical (since it's not possible) situation, in which the end-user could only use the software revision on the hard drive, at the time the TiVo was manufactured. No updates, just whatever software was originally installed, but with the ability to download guide data (minus any software updates), and keep active TiVo service.

Each TiVo drive has a sticker on it that says what software revision was on the drive, before it was assembled into the unit, and shipped. In the case of a Premiere TCD746320, 2-tuner model, that would be 14.4 or 14.5, at the time my Premieres were completed assemblies.

I'm sure some of us remember 14.4 and 14.5 software, and how crippled it was, in comparison to later *downloaded* versions, which are installed at the time of a TiVo Service connection, in the end-user's home, not at the factory.


----------



## nooneuknow

innocentfreak said:


> I definitely agree here. The way I use my TiVo I never seem to see the issues other complain about. I also do things completely different then most people. KMTTG is my go to tool for just about everything.


I can also relate, and generally agree with this. Everybody is competing for the "One Box", that gets to be plugged into HDMI input #1. It's resulted in it being nearly impossible to buy any device that only does one thing (DVR/BD players, TVs, Game Consoles, etc.), which hasn't really done much for the consumer, looking for a DVR, that is the best it can be. There's too much dilution building in all the extras. That time and effort (and limited hardware resources) could be, instead, focused on being a better DVR.


----------



## atmuscarella

nooneuknow said:


> What I meant, and honestly thought was clear, is a hypothetical (since it's not possible) situation, in which the end-user could only use the software revision on the hard drive, at the time the TiVo was manufactured. No updates, just whatever software was originally installed, but with the ability to download guide data (minus any software updates), and keep active TiVo service.
> 
> Each TiVo drive has a sticker on it that says what software revision was on the drive, before it was assembled into the unit, and shipped. In the case of a Premiere TCD746320, 2-tuner model, that would be 14.4 or 14.5, at the time my Premieres were completed assemblies.
> 
> I'm sure some of us remember 14.4 and 14.5 software, and how crippled it was, in comparison to later *downloaded* versions, which are installed at the time of a TiVo Service connection, in the end-user's home, not at the factory.


Ok understand now, well if that were the case it would suck, my Premiere came with the 14.?? software and while it worked there sure has been allot of improvements since then, same for the Series 3 units.

But the reality is every connect device I have has had important software updates after I owned the device. My receiver, blu-ray player, NAS units, all the streaming devices (I own 4 - Roku, Western digital, Netgear, & Google TV) and of course all my computers. If manufactures couldn't do software updates after shipping a device either our devices would suck our we would be waiting much longer before stuff is released.


----------



## CoxInPHX

nooneuknow said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> So, moving along, do you experience the major issue that others have reported, with the 4-tuner units? Do you get un-tuned channels, with black screens? Are you somehow blessed without having to deal with that? That well-reported issue has been the very reason I have stacks of 2-tuner models, and pay for twice as many cable cards, every month.
> 
> <SNIP>


My first TiVo purchase was a 2 Tuner Premiere in July 2011, It was a 30 day trial, and I fully expected to cancel service at the end, based mostly on all the negative talk here. But within a week or so I was completely sold on the product, and that was before the HDUI updates, and before MRS. But it was the leaked SW Vers in summer 2011 that briefly enabled MRS that was my deciding factor to purchase and try 2 Premieres.

I know this was not directed at me, but I am 99.5% satisfied with my Elite/XL4. I have also not experienced any major issues that would make me reconsider my purchase, I would purchase another if i needed and would recommend it to anyone looking, and have. Is it perfect, no. Have I missed 1 or 2 recordings in the last year, yes. but only a couple.

I have experienced the all blank tuners a few times, maybe 3 to 5x's in the last year, But do not consider it to be an issue for me. I will say I have also experienced it a few times on the 2 Tuner.

Note, I am also using a SDV Tuning Adapter and have relatively no issues with it's reliability. It also is probably 99.9% reliable.

And no, I do not do PR work for TiVo.


----------



## nooneuknow

atmuscarella said:


> Ok understand now, well if that were the case it would suck, my Premiere came with the 14.?? software and while it worked there sure has been allot of improvements since then, same for the Series 3 units.
> 
> But the reality is every connect device I have has had important software updates after I owned the device. My receiver, blu-ray player, NAS units, all the streaming devices (I own 4 - Roku, Western digital, Netgear, & Google TV) and of course all my computers. If manufactures couldn't do software updates after shipping a device either our devices would suck our we would be waiting much longer before stuff is released.


As you say, if you had just bought a Premiere, but were stuck with the original software, It would suck. If you bought any TiVo that came before, and were stuck with the original software, it would suck.

So, bear with me, and give a little leeway: Is it so hard to make a logical conclusion, that any entirely new TiVo platform, will come with software that... wait for it... SUCKS. Think about how long it has taken every platform to reach a software revision level that doesn't completely suck.

Aaronwt is always upgrading. I think, if he could, he'd be the first customer to actually own every TiVo product they bring to market, even though the software that comes on it, will likely, logically, suck. Again, no offense intended, to aaronwt.

The key is getting out updates with bug-fixes, hardware issue workarounds, and new/improved features, as quickly as possible. Anything that distracts the company from doing that, extends the "suckage" factor.

I've lost count of how many updates there have been. Some should have never made it past initial testing, without being sent back to the drawing board. Far too many add things that nobody I know of even wanted, and don't fix anything. Some break things that were working just fine, until they went and added something extra.

I do understand the "reality" you speak of. I'm also an owner of several WD TV, RoKu, and other "smart" or "bundled to the teeth" products, which routinely receive updates. These products utterly blow TiVo out-of-the-water, when it comes to streaming internet movies, streaming internet TV, games, and so many other things. Why not just leave those functions to those products, which so many already have, anyway?

A few people have directly, or indirectly, said that "we have to buy whatever new things TiVo releases, to insure survival of TiVo". I find that mentality disturbing. If that is truly the case, maybe going-out-of-business could be the BEST thing that could happen for TiVo and its user base. Somebody would buy the rights, and hopefully knock off this unofficial "why innovate, when we can litigate" stance that TiVo took on.

There is no way that we would wind up without Guide Data. Somebody would step-up, and take that over. As far as updates, maybe they wouldn't be free anymore, but maybe, just maybe, they'd be worth a small fee. I'd pay for QUALITY, properly-tested updates.

I'm going to disclose that I have never owned stock in TiVo. I feel that those who are going to rain fire and brimstone over this post, are likely going to be stockholders. So, I feel that if anybody wants to come-at-me over the death of TiVo possibly being the best thing that could happen to TiVo, and for TiVo users, disclose if they have a financial stake in the company.


----------



## nooneuknow

CoxInPHX said:


> My first TiVo purchase was a 2 Tuner Premiere in July 2011, It was a 30 day trial, and I fully expected to cancel service at the end, based mostly on all the negative talk here. But within a week or so I was completely sold on the product, and that was before the HDUI updates, and before MRS. But it was the leaked SW Vers in summer 2011 that briefly enabled MRS that was my deciding factor to purchase and try 2 Premieres.
> 
> I know this was not directed at me, but I am 99.5% satisfied with my Elite/XL4. I have also not experienced any major issues that would make me reconsider my purchase, I would purchase another if i needed and would recommend it to anyone looking, and have. Is it perfect, no. Have I missed 1 or 2 recordings in the last year, yes. but only a couple.
> 
> I have experienced the all blank tuners a few times, maybe 3 to 5x's in the last year, But do not consider it to be an issue for me. I will say I have also experienced it a few times on the 2 Tuner.
> 
> Note, I am also using a SDV Tuning Adapter and have relatively no issues with it's reliability. It also is probably 99.9% reliable.
> 
> And no, I do not do PR work for TiVo.


I have no issues with you, at all. You're one of my favorite contributors to these forums.

I'd have to say, that by the time you were sold on the Premiere 2-Tuner models, it was around the same time I was finally feeling that the product had potential, as opposed to suffering buyer's remorse. That was around the time that some of the best updates were rolling. Anything before that time, wasn't making me feel any better about buying the product.

Thanks for the input. I've never seen you post anything that wasn't credible, or couldn't be backed-up by others, or some research.

So far, my Tuning Adapters aren't doing anything, except IMPROVING the quality and stability of my signal. I still have a couple weeks before they flip the switch and they are mandatory.

FWIW: I used the in-line/pass-through method. I have no idea why Cox would instruct to use a splitter before the TA. So far, the only downside to not doing that is a complete loss of signal to the TiVos, if the power button accidentally gets pressed (it's right on the front), or the power to the TAs is otherwise interrupted. I also left out the MoCa POE filters, since I don't use MoCa. A word of advice to those who have their TiVos on battery-backup: Don't forget the TAs.


----------



## CoxInPHX

nooneuknow said:


> FWIW: I used the in-line/pass-through method. I have no idea why Cox would instruct to use a splitter before the TA. So far, the only downside to not doing that is a complete loss of signal to the TiVos, if the power button accidentally gets pressed (it's right on the front), or the power to the TAs is otherwise interrupted. A word of advice to those who have their TiVos on battery-backup: Don't forget the TAs.


The reason the signal is lost when the Cisco TA is powered down is because it is not a true RF pass-thru, it is a signal amp of 3dB. With the power off/cut the amplifier is off.

See my explanation here as to why Cox shows the use of the splitter and POE filter.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9725734#post9725734


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## bradleys

What I do not understand is why you get so angry / frustrated at people who are satisfied with their TiVo's.

I disagree with something you said several posts ago - and I am too lazy to go find it now. But you said something to the effect that most people are dissatisfied with their TiVo's... But I just do not think that is reality.

Is TiVo best in class OTT? Nope... I do not use a lot of OTT - my kids like Netflix and that seems to work fine for them. But as a DVR, most people that purchase them love them. 

If I were as angry at a company as you are, I would have left years ago. The cable company DVR's are getting a lot more competitive - they are not cheap, but they seem to work better then they did in the past.

Have you ever considered switching to another product? Life to too short to allow something as inconsequential as a DVR to bring so much stress in your life.


----------



## nooneuknow

bradleys said:


> What I do not understand is why you get so angry / frustrated at people who are satisfied with their TiVo's.
> 
> I disagree with something you said several posts ago - and I am too lazy to go find it now. But you said something to the effect that most people are dissatisfied with their TiVo's... But I just do not think that is reality.
> 
> Is TiVo best in class OTT? Nope... I do not use a lot of OTT - my kids like Netflix and that seems to work fine for them. But as a DVR, most people that purchase them love them.
> 
> If I were as angry at a company as you are, I would have left years ago. The cable company DVR's are getting a lot more competitive - they are not cheap, but they seem to work better then they did in the past.
> 
> Have you ever considered switching to another product? Life to too short to allow something as inconsequential as a DVR to bring so much stress in your life.


I understand what you are saying. I think you may have misread something I posted. Maybe I contradicted myself. I'm not perfect.

I tried the other possibilities for my area/market. Centurylink is just DSL, doing cable, poorly, and has DSL speed. That leaves Cox, which is who has been the monopoly, and for the most part, still is. The only thing I could change would be to use their equipment. It sucks. It can't be expanded. Even a few loose-lipped Cox techs disclosed that their new whole-home DVR solution is a defective product. So, the only choices left are:

A: Defective whole home product from Cox.

B: Antique, always breaking down, old DVR boxes from Cox.

C: Centurylink, when they get around to running DSL-capable copper in my neighborhood, and stone-age internet.

D: Over-The-Air only.

I'll admit I'm angry over the lack of *viable* choices. I'll admit, as disappointed as I am in TiVo, it's still better than the alternatives (in my market).

But, should that make me happy, when it comes to TiVo, when I know, with 100% certainty, it could be a MUCH better product than it is? I'm thankful for TiVo being an option. I'm just very unhappy with the way they conduct themselves, like:

A: Mindset of "why innovate, when we can litigate", to make money.

B: Releasing defective/incomplete products.

C: Updates that can take a TiVo which has been not frustrating me at all, and make me want to take it outside and shoot it.

I'm also beginning to feel like somebody who dares to speak their mind, when their iPhone malfunctions, in an Apple fanboy forum, where everybody wants to tell you to "just leave", just because you aren't happy. There's a reason I don't buy Apple products. The TiVo "Community" is becoming more and more like the "Apple can do no wrong, and produces perfect products community", where if your product spontaneously combusts, everybody tells you it was the user, not the product. That's a community I want no part of. I haven't given up hope, here, yet. There are still enough real people here, who haven't become the equivalent of iPeople or iRobots (sweeping away anything but praise for the product).

If I ever do leave these forums, it will be because I -did- abandon TiVo. Otherwise, I'm here to stay.

One thing that could really improve my attitude towards TiVo: 100% DLNA implementation. TiVo is the only entertainment device throughout the whole house that isn't able to use DLNA. Think of all the potential possibilities, one addition could create.


----------



## bradleys

I don't think TiVo is going to implement a DNLA compliant architecture. I suspect it is a business decision to keep the architecture proprietary. That doesn't mean to say there may not be some concerns about DRM, but my personal opinion is that DNLA open isn't a direction TiVo "wants" to go in.

I purchased the OLED S3 as soon as it was available on the market. It was really a ground breaking design eliminating the need for a cable box and allowing access to High Definition programming through the TiVo. 

It is a great box, but it predated other available technologies such as the Multi-Stream cable card. TiVo's (and My) desire to be cutting edge came with some risks - and the OLED S3 cannot handle a single multi-stream card. OK - that is fine.

The Premier came out and I agree the UI was incomplete and it was definitely slower then it should have been. But the updates have improved it quite a bit - I have no nagging problems with my Premier (in the way I use it). As I said, out of three TiVo's it is my primary box.

My biggest complaint about TiVo was a two year development malaise while they focused on litigation. I am sure money was very tight, but it almost killed them.

I disagree that TiVo used litigation as a revenue strategy. The rate that the competitors were stealing TiVo's intelectual property forced them to make litigation a priority. Without the courts, TiVo would have been gone years ago. 

With all that said:

TiVo has really ramped up the tempo on development and innovation over the last 18 months. It is fun to watch and predict what is coming next. 

My friendly advice to you - for what it is worth... Try not to get drug down into the past. Look at what has been delivered and what is on the horizon. It is pretty good stuff.

Will it all be perfect on release day? Nope!


----------



## ggieseke

Just throwing my two bits in here, but I think that DLNA is massively overrated and I don't really understand why TiVo owners keep asking for it. The formats that it supports are severely limited, and the software that I've seen so far blows technicolor chunks.

I tried to the extent of my patience but lame implementations, lame installers, and CPU utilizations that were ridiculous without even USING the software made me run away screaming in horror.

Your mileage may vary and I'm obviously not adverse to giving away months of work for free, but IMHO it's crap at best. Why castigate TiVo for not supporting it?


----------



## aaronwt

nooneuknow said:


> ..................
> So, moving along, do you experience the major issue that others have reported, with the 4-tuner units? Do you get un-tuned channels, with black screens? Are you somehow blessed without having to deal with that? That well-reported issue has been the very reason I have stacks of 2-tuner models, and pay for twice as many cable cards, every month.
> 
> ............


i am not having that issue with my Elites. But I am also on FiOS and I think the people on FiOS have had fewer problems. One box I have is a launch Elite and my second Elite was purchased five or six months later.(right before they changed the name).

In my main setup I have a Mini and an Elite. And I am mainly using the Mini to watch content. So i don't use the Elite in that room to watch content very much any more. But whenever i do i have not seen any blank channels and the recordings have not been having any issues.

When the S5 comes out my plan is to put that in my main setup and move that Mini to my secondary setup which also has an Elite right now.

i would run the S5 in tandem with my Elites for a couple of weeks and then sell off oen Elite and then a couple of weeks later sell off the seocnd Elite. That way if i do have any major issues with the S5, I won't be hosed. Especially since it will probably be released during the fall Tv season. So i might even wait until all the re-runs to start in December before i think about selling my Elites.

of course anything could happen and the S5 might not even show up this year.


----------



## Bigg

There's going to be a ton of cheap TiVos on eBay when the new ones come out...


----------



## bradleys

Bigg said:


> There's going to be a ton of cheap TiVos on eBay when the new ones come out...


Yeah, I was chatting with my wife today that we should sell the OLED soon before the price drops.


----------



## cncb

sbiller said:


> I expect September availability based on the timing of the FCC waiver request, the FCC certification on the new RF remote, the pace of sales on current Series 4 hardware, TiVo's late August earnings release, and release dates of previous boxes.


Do they usually announce details a while before release or not until they are available for purchase? I would like to know for sure (preferably soon) if there is going to be a new 4-tuner box for OTA that is compatible with Mini.


----------



## astrohip

nooneuknow said:


> If I could make it happen, I'd solidify the TiVo user base against buying any newer product, until TiVo fixes/finishes what they already sold.


I'm glad that you ain't the king, because under your scenarios, we'd never get new products.

I love my TiVos. Are they perfect? Heck no. But they're the best DVR on the market, and they do a phenomenal job for me. 99.999% uptime, haven't missed 2-3 recordings in 2-3 years. I can't wait for the S5s to hit the market. I was ready to pull the trigger on another Elite when this thread started, so now I'll wait for the next gen.



nooneuknow said:


> I'm still so intrigued by your bias, that I still wonder if you aren't part of a covert stealth effort to do PR for TiVo, under the guise of being an everyday Joe. Again, no offense intended. It just looks like PR, smells like PR, walks like PR, and talks like PR. I think we all know what the rest of that borrowed analogy ends with.


Best put on your tin foil hat, because there are lots of folks like him. Like me. We're unabashed TiVo fans.

One could spend all their effort focusing on what's wrong, like you do. Or one could enjoy the best DVR on the market. Like I do. I'm not ignorant of its faults and shortcomings, I just don't let it blind me to the good.

Both paths exist, which will you take?


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## bareyb

astrohip said:


> I'm glad that you ain't the king, because under your scenarios, we'd never get new products.
> 
> I love my TiVos. Are they perfect? Heck no. But they're the best DVR on the market, and they do a phenomenal job for me. 99.999% uptime, haven't missed 2-3 recordings in 2-3 years. I can't wait for the S5s to hit the market. *I was ready to pull the trigger on another Elite when this thread started, so now I'll wait for the next gen.*
> [...]


I was getting ready for another Elite as well. Have they said when these new ones will be available? They sound awesome. 6 tuners would be ideal in our scenario. :up:


----------



## innocentfreak

cncb said:


> Do they usually announce details a while before release or not until they are available for purchase? I would like to know for sure (preferably soon) if there is going to be a new 4-tuner box for OTA that is compatible with Mini.


They usually announce a month or so before availability.

I am I'll guessing an October release after being on display for CEDIA in late September..


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## lessd

Bigg said:


> There's going to be a ton of cheap TiVos on eBay when the new ones come out...


It took some time for the TiVo-HD (w/Lifetime) to drop from about $500 to about $339 now from the time the Series 4 came out, people on this forum may be well informed but the total population, not so much, and for a new TiVo customer the Lifetime cost is $500 + tax in many states, in March I got $545 each (on E-Bay) for two Series 4 two tuner TiVos with 1Tb drives in them as I upgraded to the TP-4, not too bad a deal.


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## sbiller

innocentfreak said:


> They usually announce a month or so before availability.
> 
> I am I'll guessing an October release after being on display for CEDIA in late September..


I'm guessing we might see an announcement around the time of TiVo's Q2 earnings on August 28th.

I suppose we could see some new software roll-out prior to the launch of the new hardware in late September or early October.


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## innocentfreak

sbiller said:


> I'm guessing we might see an announcement around the time of TiVo's Q2 earnings on August 28th.
> 
> I suppose we could see some new software roll-out prior to the launch of the new hardware in late September or early October.


I would agree that we will finally hear it mentioned on the call just announcing the upcoming hardware release. I doubt we will get too much info. It only makes sense to show at CEDIA and release a week or two later.


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## slowbiscuit

innocentfreak said:


> I can only say for me, but I have never once seen this issue on my Elite.


I've only seen the 'problem tuning channels' issue once on mine, and none since the Fall update last year.


----------



## takeshi

nooneuknow said:


> I'm also beginning to feel like somebody who dares to speak their mind, when their iPhone malfunctions, in an Apple fanboy forum, where everybody wants to tell you to "just leave", just because you aren't happy. There's a reason I don't buy Apple products. The TiVo "Community" is becoming more and more like the "Apple can do no wrong, and produces perfect products community", where if your product spontaneously combusts, everybody tells you it was the user, not the product. That's a community I want no part of.


Every brand and product has its fanboys. Apple certainly has a lot but there are still valid Apple discussions out there. Like anything else you always have to consider the (individual) source and you can't prejudge any group of people based solely on a subgroup. Further, you don't have to respond to the fanboys. I have also noticed a trend amongst the dissatisfied to assume that anyone else that isn't also dissatisfied to be a fanboy. The thing is that usage and needs/wants/preferences/priorities vary from person to person no matter what the topic. One has to keep in mind that the differences can and do affect an individual's satisfaction with any given solution.



nooneuknow said:


> It just looks like PR, smells like PR, walks like PR, and talks like PR. I think we all know what the rest of that borrowed analogy ends with.


I think we all know how "When you assume..." ends as well. 

Again, satisfaction is a highly subjective matter and it shouldn't be difficult to see that reflected in countless everyday examples in the real world. I've been very happy with my TivoHD but my expectations are just for it to be an appliance to collect recordings off cable. I don't use it for streaming, MRV or have any expectations for it to be the "one box" or whole household solution. Like others, I'm certainly aware of its shortcomings and Tivo's seemingly slow progress but compared to the alternatives I've tried it fits my needs and expectations very well. YMMV as with any subjective matter.


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## Bigg

lessd said:


> It took some time for the TiVo-HD (w/Lifetime) to drop from about $500 to about $339 now from the time the Series 4 came out, people on this forum may be well informed but the total population, not so much, and for a new TiVo customer the Lifetime cost is $500 + tax in many states, in March I got $545 each (on E-Bay) for two Series 4 two tuner TiVos with 1Tb drives in them as I upgraded to the TP-4, not too bad a deal.


I think the increase in tuners and some people being able to consolidate down to fewer cable card(s) will drive a switch over rather rapidly. People with providers who offer low cost cable cards or use OTA and don't mind having a bunch of individual boxes are set to benefit.


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## Joe3

I think we all stand firm despite any inessential difference of opinion base on individual circumstance. It is clear that everyone here wants the best out of TiVo in this next go round with the S5. Also, those who where around when the S3 first came out are hoping and excepting TiVo to return to at least that standard of quality, reliability, and innovation.

I almost feel sorry for those of you who came after the S3 was first released and had to settle for a lower quality standard that instead flooded you with a bunch of bells and whistle features with no real punch. The up side, if Tivo returns to that quality standard, you guys are gonna wet your pants. I guarantee it.


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## aaronwt

I still don't get it. I had three S3 boxes I purchased in 2006. My S4 boxes have been better in almost every way. Especially cost. The S3 retailed for $800. The only TiVos I spent more on were my DirecTV HD TiVOs from Spring 2004.

I have no desire for the S5 to go back to that bulky, heavy, expensive box that the original S3 box was. Sure for a 2006 box it was good, but I don't want anything like it from a TiVo in 2013.


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## Philmatic

aaronwt said:


> I still don't get it. I had three S3 boxes I purchased in 2006. My S4 boxes have been better in almost every way. Especially cost. The S3 retailed for $800. The only TiVos I spent more on were my DirecTV HD TiVOs from Spring 2004.
> 
> I have no desire for the S5 to go back to that bulky, heavy, expensive box that the original S3 box was. Sure for a 2006 box it was good, but I don't want anything like it from a TiVo in 2013.


I actually agree... I loved my S3 when it first came out, the interface was speedy, HD was fantastic and the whole concept of CableCard worked well.

But it was a $700 device, WITHOUT service. That always annoyed me. They went the right route with the premier line. Cheaper hardware cheaper prices, now if they can only keep their pesky service fees in line!


----------



## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> I still don't get it. I had three S3 boxes I purchased in 2006. My S4 boxes have been better in almost every way. Especially cost. The S3 retailed for $800. The only TiVos I spent more on were my DirecTV HD TiVOs from Spring 2004.
> 
> I have no desire for the S5 to go back to that bulky, heavy, expensive box that the original S3 box was. Sure for a 2006 box it was good, but I don't want anything like it from a TiVo in 2013.


I wouldn't want to go back to that almost literally bullet-proof, heavy and bulky case, either. The quality of the Premiere cases is comparable to any other TV accessory, or most other consumer electronics device of this day/age.

I bought the last of the clearance TiVo HDs that BlockBuster had before they went under, AFTER buying my Premieres. Both the HDMI ports have failed mechanically on the TiVoHD units, which have been stacked with the Premieres on top, and given equal treatment/care. So, I don't see much of a quality in form-factor argument.

I also agree with an earlier post, by somebody, that if the quality of the parts that truly matter, inside the new product line are like what the S3 OLED was, back in it's prime-time, and are such a big leap, performance-wise, compared to what came before, we'll all wet ourselves.

I'm expecting to be underwhelmed and disappointed, so that IF they do it RIGHT this time, I can be the exact polar opposite.


----------



## jfh3

innocentfreak said:


> I can only say for me, but I have never once seen this issue on my Elite.


Ditto. I have two early Elites and have never seen the untuned channel issue.


----------



## trip1eX

atmuscarella said:


> The dual tuner Premiere with lifetime never cost $800. The absolute worst case would have been $700 for the first one and $600 for the second and you would have had to try hard to have paid that much. However for most of it's life the dual tuner Premiere has been offered to existing customers for $500+/- with lifetime almost continuously.


I'm pretty sure Tivo sold them for $300 plus $500 for lifetime or $800 at launch.


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## trip1eX

Bigg said:


> I agree with a lot of what you said about the laggy UI and such, but the Premiere does support VOD, it's just up to the cable provider to support it. Blame your cable company if they chose not to support it. Not that VOD is that great in the first place.


The effect is the same to the consumer. NO VoD. Not that I really like VoD. The interface sucks in the VoD setups I've used - Comcast and FiOS although I remember Comcast more than FiOS. But it is handy if you miss a show or hear about a show that was just launched a few weeks ago and want to see the first couple episodes. Also good if you are recording more shows than you have tuners. YOu can drop a show that is already on VoD.


----------



## innocentfreak

trip1eX said:


> I'm pretty sure Tivo sold them for $300 plus $500 for lifetime or $800 at launch.


Nope. When the Premiere launched it was still $299 for MSD and $399 for new lifetimers.

When they dropped the price to $99 they rolled out the new lifetime rates at $399 and $499. This is how some people picked up the Premiere for $400 because they got the $99 Premiere prior to the new lifetime rates being announced on a Sunday. Electronics Expo shipped the $99 TiVos early.


----------



## atmuscarella

trip1eX said:


> I'm pretty sure Tivo sold them for $300 plus $500 for lifetime or $800 at launch.


Nope never sold for that much. If you would like to see the price points TiVo offered the Premiere at, I tracked them in this thread: 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=484973​


----------



## Bigg

trip1eX said:


> The effect is the same to the consumer. NO VoD. Not that I really like VoD. The interface sucks in the VoD setups I've used - Comcast and FiOS although I remember Comcast more than FiOS. But it is handy if you miss a show or hear about a show that was just launched a few weeks ago and want to see the first couple episodes. Also good if you are recording more shows than you have tuners. YOu can drop a show that is already on VoD.


It's really not that useful. I've used it a couple of times, but I didn't miss it when I didn't have it (MCE and TiVo pre-VOD rollout in my market).

The problem with TiVo and VOD is that you may not have a tuner available to use it, so you may not be able to get to VOD at a busy time. Better to just record everything like TiVo was meant to do.


----------



## lessd

innocentfreak said:


> Nope. When the Premiere launched it was still $299 for MSD and $399 for new lifetimers.
> 
> When they dropped the price to $99 they rolled out the new lifetime rates at $399 and $499. This is how some people picked up the Premiere for $400 because they got the $99 Premiere prior to the new lifetime rates being announced on a Sunday. Electronics Expo shipped the $99 TiVos early.


That was exactly how it worked, also if you had purchased a TP before the price drop and called TiVo they would give you the old Lifetime price. Some people did cheat on this process, there was also a time when TiVo gave some good customers a Lifetime price of $199 for a new $99 TiVo. There was some real anger about this $199 price because some bragged about it and other could not get that price.


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## slowbiscuit

Yep, I picked up and resold a couple of $99 Premieres at the $199 lifetime price during that short window of time, made a couple hundred bucks on each I think.


----------



## aaronwt

lessd said:


> That was exactly how it worked, also if you had purchased a TP before the price drop and called TiVo they would give you the old Lifetime price. Some people did cheat on this process, there was also a time when TiVo gave some good customers a Lifetime price of $199 for a new $99 TiVo. There was some real anger about this $199 price because some bragged about it and other could not get that price.


They also offered lifetime for $199 for the Premiere at launch. To owners of the S3 boxes. But they were also charging more for the actual box a launch too.

I just hope they do some deals for the S5 launch too.


----------



## lessd

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep, I picked up and resold a couple of $99 Premieres at the $199 lifetime price during that short window of time, made a couple hundred bucks on each I think.


Your bragging now, and some on this forum may get angry again about not getting that deal.


----------



## bareyb

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep, I picked up and resold a couple of $99 Premieres at the $199 lifetime price during that short window of time, made a couple hundred bucks on each I think.


WHAT!!!!????? I never got that deal!!!!!!


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## nooneuknow

lessd said:


> Your bragging now, and some on this forum may get angry again about not getting that deal.


The original thread from that time, when that one-day loophole was in effect turned into a real DISASTER!

TiVo didn't have to honor that loophole. They could've used their legal might against the retailers that released the lower-priced units early, and just forced a refund of the purchase price. Instead, TiVo took the high road.

That's all anybody needs to know. If you want to dig into the subject, that old thread still exists.

Please, let's not turn this thread into what became of that one, and just drop the subject. It's old news, ancient history, now. It happened, it's over, and bragging about it WILL get people angry, or trying to get something that I'm VERY sure TiVo won't let happen again.


----------



## Aero 1

bareyb said:


> WHAT!!!!????? I never got that deal!!!!!!


amazon even had them at $75, but i dont remember if it was in the cheap lifetime price window. regardless, still a great price


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## trip1eX

atmuscarella said:


> Nope never sold for that much. If you would like to see the price points TiVo offered the Premiere at, I tracked them in this thread:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=484973​


Oh really? Ok.

I think my points still stands which was that the Premiere was expensive at release even if it was just $700 and not $800.


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## trip1eX

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep, I picked up and resold a couple of $99 Premieres at the $199 lifetime price during that short window of time, made a couple hundred bucks on each I think.


I got a few Premieres then too.


----------



## trip1eX

Bigg said:


> It's really not that useful. I've used it a couple of times, but I didn't miss it when I didn't have it (MCE and TiVo pre-VOD rollout in my market).
> 
> The problem with TiVo and VOD is that you may not have a tuner available to use it, so you may not be able to get to VOD at a busy time. Better to just record everything like TiVo was meant to do.


Yeah but if you have more shows to record than tuners VoD is useful. Or if a show doesn't record. Or if you just heard about a show (before you thought about recording it) and want to catch up on a few past episodes. Also good for surfing once in awhile. Even more so when the Premiere debuted and it only had 2 tuners and had minimal recording storage as well.

In my experience people use VoD believe it or not. Crap interface and all. Hard to believe sometimes. But my point was just part of a larger post summing up why the Premiere launch was so disappointing.


----------



## atmuscarella

trip1eX said:


> Oh really? Ok.
> 
> I think my points still stands which was that the Premiere was expensive at release even if it was just $700 and not $800.


My response was too your post where you where listing your issues with the Premiere with one of them being:

"You had to buy another $800+ Premiere in order to watch shows on a 2nd tv."​
While I agree having to buy multiple DVRs can be costly you significantly over stated that costs ($600 or less versus $800) for a second Premiere.

I know people like to complain about the cost of TiVos but honestly I have owned 4 Tivos (3 new 1 refrub) with lifetime and the most I paid was $500. 
I do expect my next one will cost more than that but I can live with it.


----------



## mattack

I use On Demand even more lately (I thought I would play with it a few times then grow weary of it), to get the HD version of something I Tivoed the SD version of (for space reasons).

Some of the On Demand shows have VIRTUALLY no commercials, after a few days. (They seem to be almost exactly as the original airing, then after a few days, are replaced by MUCH shorter versions with fewer ads.) ...and many shows, I can still record on my other recorder to skip even those ads. So at that point, I'm technically just getting widescreen, and not HD, but it's still better than the pillarboxed original recording.

With infinite storage, I'd just Tivo everything in HD.


----------



## trip1eX

atmuscarella said:


> My response was too your post where you where listing your issues with the Premiere with one of them being:
> 
> "You had to buy another $800+ Premiere in order to watch shows on a 2nd tv."​
> While I agree having to buy multiple DVRs can be costly you significantly over stated that costs ($600 or less versus $800) for a second Premiere.
> 
> I know people like to complain about the cost of TiVos but honestly I have owned 4 Tivos (3 new 1 refrub) with lifetime and the most I paid was $500.
> I do expect my next one will cost more than that but I can live with it.


Oh ok. But $600 is still expensive when it comes to outfitting your 2nd or 3rd or 4th tvs. It's why everyone is going towards whole-home solutions. Sorry the numbers I posted were higher than actual. No ill intent. They were off the top of my head. But the real numbers you've provided ($700 for 1st and $600 for 2nd etc) still aren't cheap enough to change the gist of my point. It was expensive to outfit your tvs with Tivos especially when you throw in the other issues listed.


----------



## moedaman

mattack said:


> With infinite storage, I'd just Tivo everything in HD.


Why not buy some large hdd's for one of your pc's and send your recordings there for storage? I just picked up a 3tb external hdd (to go along with my 2tb external hdd) for my HTPC and have it dedicated for Tivo recordings.

That pc also has a 2tb internal hdd dedicated for my Windows Media Center recordings.

I have nothing against VOD, I do sub to both Netflix and Amazon Prime. But dedicated storage is, IMO, better than VOD. It also creates less of a need for multiple Tivos (before the Mini was released).


----------



## bradleys

trip1eX said:


> Oh ok. But $600 is still expensive when it comes to outfitting your 2nd or 3rd or 4th tvs. It's why everyone is going towards whole-home solutions. Sorry the numbers I posted were higher than actual. No ill intent. They were off the top of my head. But the real numbers you've provided ($700 for 1st and $600 for 2nd etc) still aren't cheap enough to change the gist of my point. It was expensive to outfit your tvs with Tivos especially when you throw in the other issues listed.


Of course you are correct, that is exactly why I am a "multi-generational" TiVo home. But it is also why the Mini has been so aniticipated and (once DTA is implemented) will be the option of choice.

$600 for a full TiVo versus $250 for a Mini - yep, I will take 3 please.


----------



## Bigg

mattack said:


> I use On Demand even more lately (I thought I would play with it a few times then grow weary of it), to get the HD version of something I Tivoed the SD version of (for space reasons).
> 
> Some of the On Demand shows have VIRTUALLY no commercials, after a few days. (They seem to be almost exactly as the original airing, then after a few days, are replaced by MUCH shorter versions with fewer ads.) ...and many shows, I can still record on my other recorder to skip even those ads. So at that point, I'm technically just getting widescreen, and not HD, but it's still better than the pillarboxed original recording.
> 
> With infinite storage, I'd just Tivo everything in HD.


With 2TB of storage, I don't find space to be an issue. I think we're at ~28% now, and we haven't cleaned anything off in like a month and a half. That, and if you're really hoarding crap, you can just move off to a PC for infinite storage.

EDIT: Update %


----------



## mattack

moedaman said:


> Why not buy some large hdd's for one of your pc's and send your recordings there for storage? I just picked up a 3tb external hdd (to go along with my 2tb external hdd) for my HTPC and have it dedicated for Tivo recordings.


I did actually recently buy a 4 TB external drive to replace a 2 TB drive I managed to kill.. (I dded most everything to another drive, but it somehow lost its partition map, and I haven't yet tried to manually make the [Mac] partition map to see if I could ever then get recovery tools to see anything on it..)

This still requires 'some work' to manually copy stuff off fast enough to prevent things from being deleted. (My P4 currently has the stock drive in it.)

I will still probably try doing this at least for a couple of series.


----------



## mattack

Bigg said:


> With 2TB of storage, I don't find space to be an issue. I think we're at ~28% now, and we haven't cleaned anything off in like a month and a half. That, and if you're really hoarding crap, you can just move off to a PC for infinite storage.


A month and a half? How many shows do you record per day or week? I record A LOT.. All of the late night network talk shows (mostly for musical guests -- the one I watch fully is Letterman and even that backs up a LOT but I'm starting to eat into those with the summer being much lighter in new programming). But even nightly news -- daily (usually listen to the podcast, but I Tivo it because they seem to cut out anything vaguely pop culture related presumably due to rights issues), and still at least a show or two in primetime. That all adds up!


----------



## Bigg

mattack said:


> A month and a half? How many shows do you record per day or week? I record A LOT.. All of the late night network talk shows (mostly for musical guests -- the one I watch fully is Letterman and even that backs up a LOT but I'm starting to eat into those with the summer being much lighter in new programming). But even nightly news -- daily (usually listen to the podcast, but I Tivo it because they seem to cut out anything vaguely pop culture related presumably due to rights issues), and still at least a show or two in primetime. That all adds up!


First of all, it's summer. Second, my roommate probably watches more TV than me. I have Rachel Maddow, Daily Show and Colbert Report all set to KUSN keep 10, so they're self-managing, and the other shows I watch aren't doing much now in the summer. It's also a 2TB drive, and with Comcast, which puts out 5.5GB/hr for HD with 3 HD's per QAM, we have well north of 300 hours of disk space to work with. There's a bunch of games and races and crap on there too. It's kind of hot in our basement, so I'll probably deal with it in September when there's more shows to record, the basement is cooler, and we get our 4th tuner back with DTA. I watch the weekly news and fake news shows in the kitchen sometimes while I'm cleaning/ prepping food/eating. I got the 2TB one because it's basically a bottomless pit. When it gets to 50 or 60% we'll clean it out and probably have it back down. When I was living alone, and I was good about deleting stuff, I think I would go back and forth in the 9-15% range.


----------



## aaronwt

Yes Summer used to mean there was not much to watch. But the last few Summers I've been recording and watching more programs than ever in my life for the Summer season. Summer 2012 I watched more shows than I did during the 2011/2012 regular TV season.


----------



## innocentfreak

mattack said:


> I did actually recently buy a 4 TB external drive to replace a 2 TB drive I managed to kill.. (I dded most everything to another drive, but it somehow lost its partition map, and I haven't yet tried to manually make the [Mac] partition map to see if I could ever then get recovery tools to see anything on it..)
> 
> This still requires 'some work' to manually copy stuff off fast enough to prevent things from being deleted. (My P4 currently has the stock drive in it.)
> 
> I will still probably try doing this at least for a couple of series.


No manual work needed with KMTTG. Just set the shows you want to offload and the amount of time before it gets offloaded. By setting the time you can make it so the shows don't offload until they are at risk of being deleted but also so it won't offload shows you watch immediately.


----------



## davezatz

A second vector confirms an earlier nugget I received and I feel relatively confident in saying the incoming 4-tuner unit will feature a smaller form factor than the 6-tuner or Premiere, but _not_ trapezoidal like the Mini.

I'm trying to keep everything documented and organized here:
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-06/tivo-series-5/


----------



## sbiller

davezatz said:


> A second vector confirms an earlier nugget I received and I feel relatively confident in saying the incoming 4-tuner unit will feature a smaller form factor than the 6-tuner or Premiere, but _not_ trapezoidal like the Mini.
> 
> I'm trying to keep everything documented and organized here:
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-06/tivo-series-5/


Thanks Dave!

I wonder if you should add a blurb about RCN's Jason Nealis confirming a September "Upgrade will have a lot of enhancements around MultiRoom and around the way a tuner is allocated for use with the Mini." which is a little firmer than your statement that, " Its believed TiVos roadmap calls for dynamic tuner allocation to be enabled this fall, which would roughly correspond to the TiVo Series 5 release."

I wonder what other enhancements around MultiRoom besides for Dynamic Tuner Allocation? Perhaps some of the management items that were left off the original release?


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> Thanks Dave!
> 
> I wonder if you should add a blurb about RCN's Jason Nealis confirming a September "Upgrade will have a lot of enhancements around MultiRoom and around the way a tuner is allocated for use with the Mini." which is a little firmer than your statement that, " It's believed TiVo's roadmap calls for dynamic tuner allocation to be enabled this fall, which would roughly correspond to the TiVo Series 5 release."
> 
> I wonder what other enhancements around MultiRoom besides for Dynamic Tuner Allocation? Perhaps some of the management items that were left off the original release?


Thanks, Sam - I've taken some of the vagueness out of the sentence and linked Jason/RCN. We have corroboration from another source that dynamic tuner allocation is already being tested, so that seems like a lock. I'm getting conflicting reports regarding the status of Netflix on the Mini, but that's not entirely relevant to S5 I guess.


----------



## innocentfreak

I wonder why they would make the 4 tuner a smaller form factor. Maybe MSOs are asking for smaller boxes? I guess in some ways it might help on cost, but you would think making both the exactly the same would be cheaper.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

_"The 4-tuner model may feature a unique restriction in that it can be configured for digital cable, via CableCARD, OR for OTA, via antenna  but not both simultaneously."_

Uh oh. Prepare yourselves for pre-launch complaint #1.  Personally, meh. A 6-tuner model has my name on it.

Thanks for the update Dave.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

innocentfreak said:


> I wonder why they would make the 4 tuner a smaller form factor. Maybe MSOs are asking for smaller boxes? I guess in some ways it might help on cost, but you would think making both the exactly the same would be cheaper.


Yeah, sounds like they're cutting as many costs as possible as a new lower-end unit. Since both boxes seem to require unique manufacturing/assembly anyway, they might as well save on size/weight/power supply/shipping too.

Dave, is that render for real? That's kinda on the fugly side. Hope the end result looks better under different lighting.


----------



## SullyND

STBs in general are getting smaller. I would not be surprised at all if MSOs were asking for smaller boxes. A TiVo Preview sized box would be nice.


----------



## davezatz

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Dave, is that render for real? That's kinda on the fugly side. Hope the end result looks better under different lighting.


It's a render via the UI and the screen doesn't photograph so well. But it's something to go on until I turn up better imagery.












SullyND said:


> STBs in general are getting smaller. I would not be surprised at all if MSOs were asking for smaller boxes. A TiVo Preview sized box would be nice.


I haven't written it up yet, but saw a 4 or 6 tuner Moto/Arris DVR in a package the size of like a hard back. I assume more functionality is built into smaller, cooler chipsets these days.


----------



## lpwcomp

davezatz said:


> It's a render via the UI and the screen doesn't photograph so well. But it's something to go on until I turn up better imagery.


Is the top as rounded as it appears to be? Or is it an optical illusion/effect? Regardless, I agree with BigJimOutlaw. It's ugly.



davezatz said:


> I haven't written it up yet, but saw a 4 or 6 tuner Moto/Arris DVR in a package the size of like a hard back. I assume more functionality is built into smaller, cooler chipsets these days.


I'd be more concerned with proper cooling of the hard drive.


----------



## SullyND

lpwcomp said:


> Is the top as rounded as it appears to be? Or is it an optical illusion/effect? Regardless, I agree with BigJimOutlaw. It's ugly.


It looks like something from the 90s "Cute" school of industrial design (First gen iMac etc).



lpwcomp said:


> I'd be more concerned with proper cooling of the hard drive.


I wonder if they aren't moving to notebook drives.


----------



## lpwcomp

SullyND said:


> I wonder if they aren't moving to notebook drives.


Doubtful, since they tend to cost more and aren't designed for 24/7 operation.


----------



## nooneuknow

lpwcomp said:


> Doubtful, since they tend to cost more and aren't designed for 24/7 operation.


The cost argument is valid. They also have more size limitations.

Just a FYI: I took a peek to see what the 1TB 2.5" drive in my WDTV Live Hub is. It's too tall to fit in a standard notebook drive bay (twice the height), but is a WD Scorpio Blue 24/7 AV drive. Not a "green" model, but meets the requirements for TiVo use, and has lower power consumption than a 3.5" WD GP/AV drive...

If the drive manufacturers can make 2.5" drives that meet TiVo's criteria, now, or in the future, I don't see why they wouldn't be ruled out as an option....


----------



## sbiller

SullyND said:


> STBs in general are getting smaller. I would not be surprised at all if MSOs were asking for smaller boxes. A TiVo Preview sized box would be nice.


Agreed. The Comcast X2 box doesn't have a hard drive "resulting in a form factor three times smaller than conventional boxes, and 50 percent less power consumption."

I suspect that this small form-factor box will also be the primary box for TiVo's MSO partners which might explain why TiVo has significantly bumped up its inventory purchase obligations in its most recent quarter.


----------



## innocentfreak

nooneuknow said:


> The cost argument is valid. They also have more size limitations.
> 
> Just a FYI: I took a peek to see what the 1TB 2.5" drive in my WDTV Live Hub is. It's too tall to fit in a standard notebook drive bay (twice the height), but is a WD Scorpio Blue 24/7 AV drive. Not a "green" model, but meets the requirements for TiVo use, and has lower power consumption than a 3.5" WD GP/AV drive...
> 
> If the drive manufacturers can make 2.5" drives that meet TiVo's criteria, now, or in the future, I don't see why they wouldn't be ruled out as an option....


Cost would be one of them. Aren't 2.5 drives are still more expensive than the 3.5 version? I haven't looked at them recently but they used to be about 25-30% more expensive for the same size.

Looking at Amazon at least retail though the WD Blue 500GB drives are the same price at 2.5 or 3.5 size so I guess they have come to the same price point.

And WD makes a 2.5 AVGP drive which is only slightly more expensive than the 3.5 version.

I will say the render definitely looks more like a cable box. It even has a logo in the bottom right corner.

EDIT: Just thought of this also. If TiVo opted for a 2.5 drive it would push those who want to upgrade to the XL model. While you might still be able to upgrade the drive, you will be potentially limited on the space so you might be stuck with 2.5 drives. The largest 2.5 drive currently from WD in the AV model is 1TB since most likely due to the platter size. http://www.wdc.com/en/products/internal/av/

This could mean the end of the 2TB 4XL unless they truly have space for a 3.5 but they opted to use a 2.5 drive. Cooling could potentially be an issue with a larger drive.


----------



## Bigg

2.5 drives are too expensive, and have half the capacity (2TB for the thick ones that won't fit in a laptop vs. 4TB for desktop drives). There's just no reason to try and cut that much space out of the box. Personally I like the big, stackable boxes, but the trend clearly is smaller and lighter. I guess it's a good thing that they are less energy intensive to manufacture and operate.


----------



## innocentfreak

Bigg said:


> 2.5 drives are too expensive, and have half the capacity (2TB for the thick ones that won't fit in a laptop vs. 4TB for desktop drives). There's just no reason to try and cut that much space out of the box. Personally I like the big, stackable boxes, but the trend clearly is smaller and lighter. I guess it's a good thing that they are less energy intensive to manufacture and operate.


I thought the same thing, but at least from Amazon they cost the same in the 500GB size 3.5 drives.


----------



## lpwcomp

innocentfreak said:


> I thought the same thing, but at least from Amazon they cost the same in the 500GB size 3.5 drives.


The larger capacity drives are still a lot more expensive in 2.5 and nothing larger than 2TB is even available. I really hope they don't move to 2.5 drives. I have absolutely no problem with the current form factor and power requirements.


----------



## innocentfreak

lpwcomp said:


> The larger capacity drives are still a lot more expensive in 2.5 and nothing larger than 2TB is even available. I really hope they don't move to 2.5 drives. I have absolutely no problem with the current form factor and power requirements.


The 1TB is a dollar more than the 3.5 version on Amazon and both are WD AvGP drives. The only reason for 2.5 would be the smaller form factor.

As I said in my post, My thinking is the P6 in the larger form factor uses the 3.5 for at least the XL model.


----------



## Dan203

If this new 4 tuner unit is going to be the new bottom line option then they need to make it as cheap as possible. If they can't get it down to at least $150 then they are putting themselves in a tough spot. I expect the 4 tuner to be as cheap as possible. If they can save a few bucks by squeezing it into a smaller case and using a wall wart instead of a real power supply, then that's what they'll do. The 6 tuner will likely be more like what we're use to as it will be more of a "premium" option. Although I don't expect it to cost much more, if anything, then the current gen XL4. They're already having trouble moving units at the current price points, if they go much higher they're going to price themselves out of the market.


----------



## nooneuknow

innocentfreak said:


> The 1TB is a dollar more than the 3.5 version on Amazon and both are WD AvGP drives. The only reason for 2.5 would be the smaller form factor.
> 
> As I said in my post, My thinking is the P6 in the larger form factor uses the 3.5 for at least the XL model.


If we put aside the cost factor, except that 2.5" drives have come down to near 3.5" pricing, if TiVo were to start using them, that sure would make all the DIY drive upgrading much more difficult, and force us to buy a "Premium" model, if we want a huge (internal) drive capacity.

Think about it... If TiVo cuts a great pricing deal on 2.5" drives, with a drive manufacturer, and then only uses the 3.5" in the most expensive model, then they could make it no so easy for people to buy the cheapest model, and just drop in a bigger drive...

I've been wondering how long it would take for TiVo to get more ballsy, and release a product that isn't upgrade friendly. If they make it that way, by design, we're somewhat screwed. I think they likely never expected anybody to come up with a way to expand a Premiere drive. Once it was possible, they couldn't really just deactivate the people who upgraded, as a retroactive measure, without p'ing a lot of paying customers off...

It's a sad and scary thing to think of, but they COULD do it. It's their product. As Dan203 said, the non-premium models could even have wall-wart power supplies.


----------



## innocentfreak

nooneuknow said:


> If we put aside the cost factor, except that 2.5" drives have come down to near 3.5" pricing, if TiVo were to start using them, that sure would make all the DIY drive upgrading much more difficult, and force us to buy a "Premium" model, if we want a huge (internal) drive capacity.
> 
> Think about it... If TiVo cuts a great pricing deal on 2.5" drives, with a drive manufacturer, and then only uses the 3.5" in the most expensive model, then they could make it no so easy for people to buy the cheapest model, and just drop in a bigger drive...
> 
> I've been wondering how long it would take for TiVo to get more ballsy, and release a product that isn't upgrade friendly. If they make it that way, by design, we're somewhat screwed. I think they likely never expected anybody to come up with a way to expand a Premiere drive. Once it was possible, they couldn't really just deactivate the people who upgraded, as a retroactive measure, without p'ing a lot of paying customers off...
> 
> It's a sad and scary thing to think of, but they COULD do it. It's their product. As Dan203 said, the non-premium models could even have wall-wart power supplies.


Correct as I said yesterday. They do make 2TB 2.5 drives now though but at a greater cost. They don't make the AVGP model though past 1TB.

Amazon



innocentfreak said:


> EDIT: Just thought of this also. If TiVo opted for a 2.5 drive it would push those who want to upgrade to the XL model. While you might still be able to upgrade the drive, you will be potentially limited on the space so you might be stuck with 2.5 drives. The largest 2.5 drive currently from WD in the AV model is 1TB since most likely due to the platter size. http://www.wdc.com/en/products/internal/av/
> 
> This could mean the end of the 2TB 4XL unless they truly have space for a 3.5 but they opted to use a 2.5 drive. Cooling could potentially be an issue with a larger drive.


I don't necessarily think TiVo is doing this to cut out upgrades, but more for the smaller form factor. It would also limit them from making a XL model in the 4 tuner model.

This is all of course assuming it even has a smaller 2.5 drive. It is tough to tell dimensions by a screen shot. From a cost perspective it doesn't make sense to buy 2.5 drives for the 4 tuner and 3.5 drives for the 6 tuner unless they have different storage. I could see 500GB for the 4 tuner and 1TB for the 6 tuner base and then 2TB for the 4XL and 3TB for the 6XL.


----------



## wco81

Tivo's marketshare has to be pretty low, because most people would not spend hundreds up front and then high use fees or lifetime.

Though their designs are in sore need of more HW performance, you would think they'd look for ways to reduce costs to make the products more competitive.

Would they get better pricing on the Broadcom processors or perhaps draft on the scale of mobile SOCs, say a 2-year old design with 2 A9 cores?

Look at the A5 used on the AppleTV, a $99 product, for instance. Then again, I heard that the Tivo software platform relies on Adobe Air, which is related to Flash?

Mobile platforms don't run Flash well and Adobe has abandoned it for mobile so could that be part of the reason for the cost of the hardware?


----------



## tivogurl

Are there any 2.5" drives rated for 24/7 use?


----------



## innocentfreak

Yes the ones I linked in my original post.

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=160

They are just the 2.5 version of the drive TiVo regularly uses which is the Western Digital AV-GP.


----------



## aaronwt

tivogurl said:


> Are there any 2.5" drives rated for 24/7 use?


I don't see it being any different than the 3.5 inch drives.Those work fine running 24/7/365 even though they aren't AV drives. So I wouldn't think the 2.5 inch drives wouldn't be any different.

My GF still has two of my OLED S3 boxes, each with the first available 1TB drive. A five platter hitachi drive. They have been running 24/7/365 for around 6.5 years with no issues so far.


----------



## tivogurl

innocentfreak said:


> http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=160


Only 5 simultaneous streams (presumably 4 write one read) though. Wouldn't work in our hypothesized 6-tuner Tivo. Unless the 4- and 6-tuner TiVos are going to have different form factors I don't see the point of using 2.5" drives.


----------



## bmgoodman

I've worked with desktop and laptop PCs over the last decade, in hundreds to nearly a thousand, and I've had way more 2.5" drives fail with absolutely zero warning as compared to 3.5" drives. (Yes, the absolute number of failures is still small.) I'm including some small form-factor desktops with 2.5" drives and many laptops that never leave the office. Just saying that I frequently see anomalies out of the 3.5" drives in advance of a failure, but almost never with the 2.5" drives. (Yes, it's also anecdotal.)

Let's just say for a number of reasons I far prefer 3.5" drives, except if portability is key.


----------



## innocentfreak

tivogurl said:


> Only 5 simultaneous streams (presumably 4 write one read) though. Wouldn't work in our hypothesized 6-tuner Tivo. Unless the 4- and 6-tuner TiVos are going to have different form factors I don't see the point of using 2.5" drives.


Which is exactly what Dave Zatz's update says that got us on the subject of the 2.5 drives.



davezatz said:


> A second vector confirms an earlier nugget I received and I feel relatively confident in saying the incoming 4-tuner unit will feature a smaller form factor than the 6-tuner or Premiere, but _not_ trapezoidal like the Mini.
> 
> I'm trying to keep everything documented and organized here:
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-06/tivo-series-5/


----------



## Dan203

tivogurl said:


> Only 5 simultaneous streams (presumably 4 write one read) though. Wouldn't work in our hypothesized 6-tuner Tivo. Unless the 4- and 6-tuner TiVos are going to have different form factors I don't see the point of using 2.5" drives.


I think that's the plan. The 4 tuner unit would be a smaller form factor box while the 6 tuner would be similar in size to the current Premiere units.

Although the drive would need to support more then 5 streams. In addition to recording 4 and playing back 1 locally it also needs to support playback to 3 external devices such as a Mini or Stream and one each, incoming and outgoing, MRV streams. So 9 total streams. Or at least that's what the current units do. And the 6 tuner will need to support at least 11.

Although TiVo supports a max bitrate of 25Mbps, which is only 3.125MB per second, andost hard drives can handle a sustained read/write speed of at least 50MB per second so it shouldn't be a problem at all.


----------



## tivogurl

Oops, missed that Zatz nugget.

Native WiFi on the box will be good, so long as TiVo doesn't get stupidly cheap and not have 11n capability and WiFi Protected Setup. Fewer wires is good, and I have a (possibly irrational) dislike of MOCA (vs 1G Ethernet).


----------



## lrhorer

Dan203 said:


> Although TiVo supports a max bitrate of 25Mbps, which is only 3.125MB per second, andost hard drives can handle a sustained read/write speed of at least 50MB per second so it shouldn't be a problem at all.


It could be. First of all, 50 MBps reads are no problem, but writes are another matter. I rarely see sustained 50 MBps writes to a single spindle on consumer quality drives. Secondly, 28+ MBps is getting a little close for comfort to the 50 MBps hypothetical for real-time transfers. Thirdly, the sustained throughput is not the most important metric, here. It is the number of IOPS and the random seek rate that rear their ugly heads when talking about multiple simultaneous reads and writes.


----------



## aaronwt

tivogurl said:


> Only 5 simultaneous streams (presumably 4 write one read) though. Wouldn't work in our hypothesized 6-tuner Tivo. Unless the 4- and 6-tuner TiVos are going to have different form factors I don't see the point of using 2.5" drives.




Only five simultaneous HD video streams?? That seems rather low? I've used 2.5 inch drives in the past that could handle reading/writing more HD streams than that.


----------



## aaronwt

lrhorer said:


> It could be. First of all, 50 MBps reads are no problem, but writes are another matter. I rarely see sustained 50 MBps writes to a single spindle on consumer quality drives. Secondly, 28+ MBps is getting a little close for comfort to the 50 MBps hypothetical for real-time transfers. Thirdly, the sustained throughput is not the most important metric, here. It is the number of IOPS and the random seek rate that rear their ugly heads when talking about multiple simultaneous reads and writes.


What kind of drives are you using? The single platter 1TB drives have zero issues sustaining 100MB/s write speeds.


----------



## tivogurl

aaronwt said:


> Only five simultaneous HD video streams?? That seems rather low?


That's the official specification. Not only that, the spec says "five playback streams". Presumably the official number of supported _recording_ streams is even lower.


----------



## Dan203

lrhorer said:


> It could be. First of all, 50 MBps reads are no problem, but writes are another matter. I rarely see sustained 50 MBps writes to a single spindle on consumer quality drives. Secondly, 28+ MBps is getting a little close for comfort to the 50 MBps hypothetical for real-time transfers. Thirdly, the sustained throughput is not the most important metric, here. It is the number of IOPS and the random seek rate that rear their ugly heads when talking about multiple simultaneous reads and writes.


The current gen units do it just fine and they are using 5400 RPM drives. I can't imagine that a 2.5" drive would be any slower. In fact it would probably be slightly faster since it probably only has 1 platter instead of two.


----------



## Dan203

tivogurl said:


> Oops, missed that Zatz nugget.
> 
> Native WiFi on the box will be good, so long as TiVo doesn't get stupidly cheap and not have 11n capability and WiFi Protected Setup. Fewer wires is good, and I have a (possibly irrational) dislike of MOCA (vs 1G Ethernet).


I'm betting the Wifi will only be supported for the internet leg of the connection and you'll have to use MoCa or Ethernet for streaming. I think the intended setup will be a single TiVo in your main room, either 4 or 6 tuners, with Minis spread around the house for viewing in other rooms. The Minis will connect to the TiVo via MoCa or Ethernet and then the TiVo will bridge that connection to WiFi for internet access.

They could accomplish this pretty easily by simply blocking the UDP discovery protocol on the WiFi leg of the network. If the TiVo's can't see each other via WiFi then you wont be able to use it for streaming. Even 802.11n is not fast enough to support the 3 simultaneous streams that are possible with a TiVo.

It's also possible that the WiFi could be used as a bridge in the other direction allowing a device like an iPad connect to the TiVo to get on the local network. This might be good for people with wired networks that want to use the built in Stream capabilities it's rumored to have.


----------



## innocentfreak

Dan203 said:


> The current gen units do it just fine and they are using 5400 RPM drives. I can't imagine that a 2.5" drive would be any slower. In fact it would probably be slightly faster since it probably only has 1 platter instead of two.


The 3.5 AV-GP is rated for 12 streams over 5 for the 2.5 drive. It has a smaller buffer also not sure if that matters any.


----------



## b_scott

I don't need any more tuners or storage space. what I need is a better interface. Quicker, better app integration, and full HD. Get rid of this flash crap.


----------



## bradleys

b_scott said:


> I don't need any more tuners or storage space. what I need is a better interface. Quicker, better app integration, and full HD. Get rid of this flash crap.


Flash isn't going anywhere - that I guarantee. But the new boxes are supposed to have a more powerful processor that handles the load of the UI better (the Mini is an example of this upgrade)


----------



## b_scott

ugh. why wouldn't they be able to use HTML5?


----------



## RayChuang88

If TiVo releases a 4 TB capacity TiVo Series 5 with six tuners, I'm in on buying one!


----------



## bradleys

b_scott said:


> ugh. why wouldn't they be able to use HTML5?


Because they have invested a huge amount of resources and time into the current architecture.

There isn't anything particularly wrong with flash (adobe air) as a platform, but as with any tech, if the processor isn't up to the task the the user experience will suffer.

Others more knowledgable them me have reported that the Current Premier processor in the Series 4 doesn't meet the minimum specifications for Flash.

The current processor just simply isn't up to the task.

It is always a balancing act trying to navigate price, power consumption and performance in a consumer electronic.


----------



## bradleys

RayChuang88 said:


> If TiVo releases a 4 TB capacity TiVo Series 5 with six tuners, I'm in on buying one!












Actually, I am not sure about the drive size, but I do expect that they have extended the size limitation cap of the current units. Current max is 2 TB, so I expect to see at least 3 TB option. Hopefully upgradable to 4


----------



## innocentfreak

RayChuang88 said:


> If TiVo releases a 4 TB capacity TiVo Series 5 with six tuners, I'm in on buying one!


I doubt it would be 4TBs. It will more than likely be 3TB. The 3TB drives cost around the same as the 2TB did when they released the Elite. WD makes a 3TB drive in the same line that TiVo has used in the past but not a 4TB drive yet.


----------



## RayChuang88

Even if it's limited to 3 TB, that's still 471 maximum hours in HD recording. I'll take it!


----------



## aaronwt

I would prefer 4TB but 3TB will do. Plus 4TB drives are too expensive still. There is no way though that I would get a six tuner box with only 2TB of storage. It would not be enough storage for me. Or I'd have to start using TiVo Desktop more often again.
I haven't used TiVo Desktop very much since getting two of the 2TB Elite TiVos.


----------



## davezatz

Sources tells me we're looking at 1TB and 3TB options in the 6-tuner model.


----------



## wco81

Thing about Flash is that Adobe has given up trying to support Flash on mobile devices, which all have faster CPUs than the embedded processors that are being used on set tops and DVRs.


----------



## sbiller

wco81 said:


> Thing about Flash is that Adobe has given up trying to support Flash on mobile devices, which all have faster CPUs than the embedded processors that are being used on set tops and DVRs.


And they continue to support and enhance it for the TV domain...

http://www.adobe.com/devnet/devices/flash_platform_tv.html


----------



## Dan203

One bonus from them using Adobe Air is that Samsung has also adopted Air for their apps platform and they have apps for almost all major audio/video services. So it should be relatively easy for developers to port their Samsung apps to the TiVo platform. That gives me hope for services like HBOGo, Amazon streaming and VUDU eventually landing on TiVo.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> One bonus from them using Adobe Air is that Samsung has also adopted Air for their apps platform and they have apps for almost all major audio/video services. So it should be relatively easy for developers to port their Samsung apps to the TiVo platform. That gives me hope for services like HBOGo, Amazon streaming and VUDU eventually landing on TiVo.


Agreed and if Zatz's DIAL support rumor is correct, even better...


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> Agreed and if Zatz's DIAL support rumor is correct, even better...


I received a video and imagery that seems to show something DIAL-like, amongst other things, in action. But I can't say with certainty it's DIAL - it could be similar to what we have now but beefed up. Also still trying to parse the name situation. TiVo registered TiVo Series 5 with MoCA and the RF remote is labeled S5. But also aware of references in the beta software and forums to Roamio. I've also seen references, not in the UI, to Hercules and Cobalt but feel more confident those are merely code names. I have a few retail and marketing friendlies I'm tracking down who might be able to help. Maybe - might depend how close we are to a launch of one or both models. I feel pretty confident at this point there are two 6-tuner configs, maybe going by Pro and Plus. I have this (hopefully) irrational fear that the lower end 6-tuner model wouldn't include Stream support and that it'd be a software/activation upsell. This is NOT based on any intel, just knowing how companies like to generate additional revenue. Updates were made to the post, including an image of the 4-tuner model with "Roamio" name, link to one portion of the revised YouTube UI, and I linked Dan's WiFi speculation - sounds reasonable to me.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-06/tivo-series-5/


----------



## innocentfreak

I wonder if the DIAL-like is related to the previous company talking about doing DLNA for TiVo. 

All I know is I hope TiVo either plans to relaunch a new and improved TiVo Desktop or actually opens up the SDK so the community can incorporate any of the new features.


----------



## nooneuknow

innocentfreak said:


> I wonder if the DIAL-like is related to the previous company talking about doing DLNA for TiVo.
> 
> All I know is I hope TiVo either plans to relaunch a new and improved TiVo Desktop or actually opens up the SDK so the community can incorporate any of the new features.


Careful, the last time I brought up "having DLNA work with my TiVo would be nice", the rotten tomatoes started flying...

As long as they inter-operate, I could like me some "DIAL"...


----------



## series5orpremier

I'm concerned the Roamio 4-tuner version keeps sounding more and more like the cost-reduced poor stepchild. Hard drives of 1 TB and 3 TB for the 6-tuner versions implies TIVO will stick with a measly 0.5 TB for the entry level 4-tuner. That won't work for me, as I'm used to 150 HD hours on my Premier XL. With four tuners 75 HD hours could be one week's worth of recordings, so unless you keep up with your time-shifting on a week to week basis the hard drive could quickly fill up. With the small form factor how possible or easy would an internal hard drive upgrade be? I don't want an external drive expansion solution because I had all sorts of problems with that on Series 3.

I'm also concerned if reliability has been designed and tested well enough to prevent some weak link from causing the unit to fail prematurely. Maybe they think us cord-cutter OTA users are more cost-sensitive, but if I'm saving $100+ per month on cable I can afford to pay a little more for a larger hard drive, better quality tuners/components, and a conservatively safe design for reliability purposes.


----------



## aaronwt

davezatz said:


> I received a video and imagery that seems to show something DIAL-like, amongst other things, in action. But I can't say with certainty it's DIAL - it could be similar to what we have now but beefed up. Also still trying to parse the name situation. TiVo registered TiVo Series 5 with MoCA and the RF remote is labeled S5. But also aware of references in the beta software and forums to Roamio. I've also seen references, not in the UI, to Hercules and Cobalt but feel more confident those are merely code names. I have a few retail and marketing friendlies I'm tracking down who might be able to help. Maybe - might depend how close we are to a launch of one or both models. I feel pretty confident at this point there are two 6-tuner configs, maybe going by Pro and Plus. I have this (hopefully) irrational fear that the lower end 6-tuner model wouldn't include Stream support and that it'd be a software/activation upsell. This is NOT based on any intel, just knowing how companies like to generate additional revenue. Updates were made to the post, including an image of the 4-tuner model with "Roamio" name, link to one portion of the revised YouTube UI, and I linked Dan's WiFi speculation - sounds reasonable to me.
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-06/tivo-series-5/


I wouldn't mind the upsell being in all the TiVos. Since without Android support, stream support is worthless to me. So I'd rather save some money and not pay for it if I'm never going to be able to use it.


----------



## atmuscarella

series5orpremier said:


> I'm concerned the Roamio 4-tuner version keeps sounding more and more like the cost-reduced poor stepchild. Hard drives of 1 TB and 3 TB for the 6-tuner versions implies TIVO will stick with a measly 0.5 TB for the entry level 4-tuner. That won't work for me, as I'm used to 150 HD hours on my Premier XL. With four tuners 75 HD hours could be one week's worth of recordings, so unless you keep up with your time-shifting on a week to week basis the hard drive could quickly fill up. With the small form factor how possible or easy would an internal hard drive upgrade be? I don't want an external drive expansion solution because I had all sorts of problems with that on Series 3.
> 
> I'm also concerned if reliability has been designed and tested well enough to prevent some weak link from causing the unit to fail prematurely. Maybe they think us cord-cutter OTA users are more cost-sensitive, but if I'm saving $100+ per month on cable I can afford to pay a little more for a larger hard drive, better quality tuners/components, and a conservatively safe design for reliability purposes.


The next 4 tuner model will certainly be TiVo's entry level DVR, just as the TiVo HD and then Premiere were when released. Nothing in the past would indicate they will use hardware that isn't reliable, but of course only time will tell. Hopefully it will be easy to upgrade the hard drive but with OTA it is easy enough to move stuff to a computer for storage as there are no restrictions.


----------



## Dan203

davezatz said:


> Updates were made to the post, including an image of the 4-tuner model with "Roamio" name, link to one portion of the revised YouTube UI, and I linked Dan's WiFi speculation - sounds reasonable to me.
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-06/tivo-series-5/


You may have just outed your source! 

Consider this... TiVo knows they have a leak somewhere, because you keep reporting info you shouldn't have. So to figure out who it is they give every box in the beta some unique BS name, like Roamio, in hopes that you'll report it and point them toward the person leaking you the information. This is a pretty common tactic for flushing leaks.

Now I could be wrong, but if I'm not your source might be in some serious trouble. 

If I am wrong and the new name is really Roamio then I have to say that is a really, really, stupid name. :down:


----------



## series5orpremier

atmuscarella said:


> Nothing in the past would indicate they will use hardware that isn't reliable,


Other than the lost recordings and inability to use my Tivo HD when an external hard drive failed after 12 months, my now unsubscribed Tivo HD being in a continuous boot up loop after only 6.5 years, and my original Premier XL arriving in May 2010 DOA with bad tuners causing Tivo to send me a replacement Premier XL.


----------



## atmuscarella

series5orpremier said:


> Other than the lost recordings and inability to use my Tivo HD when an external hard drive failed after 12 months, my now unsubscribed Tivo HD being in a continuous boot up loop after only 6.5 years, and my original Premier XL arriving in May 2010 DOA with bad tuners causing Tivo to send me a replacement Premier XL.


A certain percentage of all electronic devices fail prematurely and 100% of all electronic devices fail at some point. That is not the same as unreliable hardware, unreliable hardward has a much higher than typical failure rate, and I do not believe (but can not prove) that any TiVo DVR has had a high failure rate. The closest thing I have seen with TiVo's that might be considered unreliable was/is the power supplies in the Series 3 units.

As far as hard drives go TiVo doesn't make them and buys form one of the worlds major vendors, if yours failed prematurely (and I am not sure 6.5 years is premature failure (drive failure is the likely reason your TiVo HD is in a reboot loop)) that was just bad luck nothing more and the supported external drives are not even a TiVo branded product.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

On one hand, as a Tivo nerd I enjoy the info. But on the other hand, while the leak is getting off on being a hero they're going to cross a line where they put other testers at risk.

If the aggressive 4-tuner tester/leak doesn't think Tivo would swipe all 4-tuner testers of their hardware, think again. The question is not if it pisses Tivo off, but how pissed off are they to do something about it considering the proximity to launch?


----------



## davezatz

CableLabs recently updated their list of retail CableCARD devices, and there are no new TiVo models. Not really a surprise as manufacturers have the ability to hold that info back for competitive reasons and such and TiVo probably knows the process better than all other CE companies.

http://www.cablelabs.com/opencable/udcp/downloads/OC_PNP.pdf


----------



## mr_smits

lpwcomp said:


> Regardless, I agree with BigJimOutlaw. It's ugly.


I like the Premiere box. Simple. Hopefully they just tweaked it slightly.


----------



## mattack

davezatz said:


> Sources tells me we're looking at 1TB and 3TB options in the 6-tuner model.


So does that mean there's a new filesystem? I presume it's not 3 TB across two separate drives.

Isn't the current filesystem limited to ~2 TB?

So someone will have to figure out/leak the new filesystem info so we can put in even bigger drives!


----------



## wco81

davezatz said:


> CableLabs recently updated their list of retail CableCARD devices, and there are no new TiVo models. Not really a surprise as manufacturers have the ability to hold that info back for competitive reasons and such and TiVo probably knows the process better than all other CE companies.
> 
> http://www.cablelabs.com/opencable/udcp/downloads/OC_PNP.pdf


Who is Tivo's competition other than the cable companies themselves? There really are no 3rd party CC DVRs left.

Cable companies are going to roll their own and continue to push their own so all Tivo can appeal to are people willing to spend hundreds up front and pay the same high monthly service fees.

That's a diminishing market.


----------



## aaronwt

wco81 said:


> Who is Tivo's competition other than the cable companies themselves? There really are no 3rd party CC DVRs left.
> 
> Cable companies are going to roll their own and continue to push their own so all Tivo can appeal to are people willing to spend hundreds up front and pay the same high monthly service fees.
> 
> That's a diminishing market.


I thought TiVos subscriber numbers have been increasing?


----------



## Philmatic

mattack said:


> So does that mean there's a new filesystem? I presume it's not 3 TB across two separate drives.
> 
> Isn't the current filesystem limited to ~2 TB?
> 
> So someone will have to figure out/leak the new filesystem info so we can put in even bigger drives!


The fact that it took them this long to address the 2.2TiB limit is pretty embarrassing. Hopefully they moved away entirely from the 32-bit TiVo kernel and OS and moved to something more modern. Theoretically the Flash UI can run atop any CPU architecture, that was one of its major selling points.



aaronwt said:


> I thought TiVos subscriber numbers have been increasing?


Through the MSO's yes, but their retail numbers have been falling pretty regularly over the past 5-7 years IIRC. Obviously Sam is the resident TiVo financial guru and can break these numbers down much better than I can.


----------



## deaddeeds

aaronwt said:


> I thought TiVos subscriber numbers have been increasing?


TiVo has now posted subscriber increases for seven straight quarters, following a four-year streak of declining subscriber numbers. In the latest period, TiVo added a net 255,000 subscribers, compared with the 206,000 subscribers it gained a year earlier.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20130520-710657.html


----------



## davezatz

That WSJ article is total, not retail-specific. Here's a chart from TiVo's quarterly filing. Update: I believe TiVo drops Lifetimed units from reports after X years. But that's a financial metric and many of those folks would still be active users? Again, Sam's probably best equipped to explain.


----------



## sbiller

Here are some charts I've put together for the subscriber trends...


----------



## sbiller

davezatz said:


> That WSJ article is total, not retail-specific. Here's a chart from TiVo's quarterly filing. Update: I believe TiVo drops Lifetimed units from reports after X years. But that's a financial metric as many of those folks would still be active users? Again, Sam's probably best equipped to explain.


Lifetime's subscribers are still counted in the retail subscriber count although TiVo no longer records revenue from lifetime boxes after 66 months (i.e., when someone purchases a $499 lifetime subscription, TiVo's cash flow increases by $499 but the record revenue at $7.56/mo for 66 months).


----------



## innocentfreak

Philmatic said:


> The fact that it took them this long to address the 2.2TiB limit is pretty embarrassing. Hopefully they moved away entirely from the 32-bit TiVo kernel and OS and moved to something more modern. Theoretically the Flash UI can run atop any CPU architecture, that was one of its major selling points.


They really didn't have a reason to until now since 2TB drives were the largest TiVo offered. When the Elite launched the 3TB drives were still up there in price around where the 4TB are now.


----------



## innocentfreak

If this is true I think this is really a bad decision.



> Also hearing TiVo's HDUI will remain incomplete... ha?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/364724405999386624
I realize this has been debated over and over, but I think not finishing the UI prior to the new box is a bad decision. No I don't want them to delay the S5 to finish the UI, but I guess now we have to wonder if it will ever be finished.


----------



## davezatz

innocentfreak said:


> I realize this has been debated over and over, but I think not finishing the UI prior to the new box is a bad decision. No I don't want them to delay the S5 to finish the UI, but I guess now we have to wonder if it will ever be finished.


That tweet was *specific to the Premiere*. Can't speak to the S5 with that level of granularity yet. Although my assumption is the visuals would be similar...


----------



## slowbiscuit

At the minimum they should finish the WL screens, the settings/diags are not a big deal. But it all should be HD now and really should have been a couple of years ago. It just continues to make them look lame.


----------



## aaronwt

slowbiscuit said:


> At the minimum they should finish the WL screens, the settings/diags are not a big deal. But it all should be HD now and really should have been a couple of years ago. It just continues to make them look lame.


At a minimum it should be all the screens. Especially the settings screens.

I go to the settings screen more often than some other screens. Since there are constantly channel changes on FiOS and I need to go in a remove or add channels to favorites on the channel list. Since every time a channel is changed or added it is automatically added to the channel list.

I just hope we hear some info soon about the S5 and when it will go on sale and for how much. The sooner I can get a six tuner S5 the sooner I can drop down to one cable card and also sell my two TiVo Elites.


----------



## sbiller

aaronwt said:


> At a minimum it should be all the screens. Especially the settings screens.
> 
> I go to the settings screen more often than some other screens. Since there are constantly channel changes on FiOS and I need to go in a remove or add channels to favorites on the channel list. Since every time a channel is changed or added it is automatically added to the channel list.


I don't think the settings screens are a big deal. I can remove a channel right from the guide now so I rarely go to the channels screen. I don't see a huge reason to update CableCARD and Tuning Adapter screens since those are going away eventually.

I think the big deal is the WL screen and I suspect that we might see that one updated.

I do expect that the Series 5 will run the exact same software baseline as the S4.


----------



## AllYourBase

Focusing on the hardware of the Series5 units, here's what we know.

The Tivo Mini (part of the Series5 family based on CPU) uses a Broadcom 7418 chip.
The Series5 6-tuner box (based on the Pace XG1 development) uses a Broadcom 7425 chip. With the Pace XG1 simply being a "headless" variant of the retail.
The Series5 4-tuner box uses as Broadcom 7429.

The difference between the 7429 and 7425 is the lack of transcoding needed for streaming (http://www.broadcom.com/docs/press/product_brochure.pdf), so the hardware matches the current feature speculation.


----------



## wco81

deaddeeds said:


> TiVo has now posted subscriber increases for seven straight quarters, following a four-year streak of declining subscriber numbers. In the latest period, TiVo added a net 255,000 subscribers, compared with the 206,000 subscribers it gained a year earlier.
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20130520-710657.html


The numbers I'd like to see are:

1. Total subscribers compared to all-time high number of subscribers.

2. Total subscribers compared to all the DVRs out there. You can break it down by cable or cable and satellite combined.

3. Percentage of total DVRs in use.


----------



## davezatz

wco81 said:


> The numbers I'd like to see are:
> 
> 3. Percentage of total DVRs in use.


I tried to get total number of DVRs from Dan at StreamingMedia last week but the MSOs only report total number of STBs to them. Not sure if other orgs have that info. For this exercise I'd want to see it limited to the US and retail, versus MSO-provided TiVo. Also total DVR count will have less value as more providers move to the whole-home hub/spoke client/extender model.


----------



## mr_smits

AllYourBase said:


> Focusing on the hardware of the Series5 units, here's what we know.
> 
> The Tivo Mini (part of the Series5 family based on CPU) uses a Broadcom 7418 chip.
> The Series5 6-tuner box (based on the Pace XG1 development) uses a Broadcom 7425 chip. With the Pace XG1 simply being a "headless" variant of the retail.
> The Series5 4-tuner box uses as Broadcom 7429.
> 
> The difference between the 7429 and 7425 is the lack of transcoding needed for streaming (http://www.broadcom.com/docs/press/product_brochure.pdf), so the hardware matches the current feature speculation.


So that means the new 4 tuner box won't even have Stream capability built in? Ugh. I suppose that means I don't have to wait anymore for Tivo to release Stream compatibility for Android. Still if accurate, that is disappointing.


----------



## wco81

davezatz said:


> I tried to get total number of DVRs from Dan at StreamingMedia last week but the MSOs only report total number of STBs to them. Not sure if other orgs have that info. For this exercise I'd want to see it limited to the US and retail, versus MSO-provided TiVo. Also total DVR count will have less value as more providers move to the whole-home hub/spoke client/extender model.


I think it would be useful to see the historical context. Tivo (along with Replay TV IIRC) invented the DVR or popularized it.

But is a bit player now, given that most people get their DVRs from cable or satellite companies. I wouldn't say DVRs drive one's decision on which provider to sign up with but I think they are a factor.

And in other countries, Tivo probably has no presence because the pricing model is completely different. There are no service fees as I understand it. You can buy a DVR at a store in Japan and hook it up, pay no extra fees.


----------



## davezatz

wco81 said:


> And in other countries, Tivo probably has no presence because the pricing model is completely different. There are no service fees as I understand it. You can buy a DVR at a store in Japan and hook it up, pay no extra fees.


1.7 million Virgin TiVos in the UK... largest, single installed base I believe. And the bulk of where TiVo's software development seems to have been focused the last two years.


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> I think the big deal is the WL screen and I suspect that we might see that one updated.


I can confirm WishLists are going HD...


----------



## sbiller

davezatz said:


> I tried to get total number of DVRs from Dan at StreamingMedia last week but the MSOs only report total number of STBs to them. Not sure if other orgs have that info. For this exercise I'd want to see it limited to the US and retail, versus MSO-provided TiVo. Also total DVR count will have less value as more providers move to the whole-home hub/spoke client/extender model.


Back of the napkin math/analysis....

There are 114.8 million households (HHs) in the US. DVR penetration is around 45% meaning there are approximately 52 million DVRs. TiVo's 1 million DVRs represents a little less than 2% of the DVRs in the US.

I also agree that WH solutions throw-off the calculations a bit. Keep in mind that TiVo counts any box generating recurring revenue as a subscriber so every TiVo Mini fielded to retail adds to TiVo's count and throws off the calculation.

There are other ways to derive a similar number based on cable TV households and/or MVPD households since the NCTA published total numbers for the top MSOs and we can look to the National Cable Television Cooperative (NCTC) for additional statistics.

FWIW, if we combine the 2% retail number with the 700,000 (and growing) boxes deployed to TiVo's MSO partners, TiVo's market share in the US is around 3.3% and growing.


----------



## bradleys

mr_smits said:


> So that means the new 4 tuner box won't even have Stream capability built in? Ugh. I suppose that means I don't have to wait anymore for Tivo to release Stream compatibility for Android. Still if accurate, that is disappointing.


True, but you can still purchase the TiVo Stream. They are just trying to differentiate the models both in pricing and options (and cost to produce).

Charging a premium for a device that is THX certified and putting a larger hard drive in the unit (with no other hardware differences) was a little lame in my opinion.


----------



## sbiller

davezatz said:


> 1.7 million Virgin TiVos in the UK... largest, single installed base I believe. And the bulk of where TiVo's software development seems to have been focused the last two years.


TiVo spent 3+ years unifying the Series 4 code-base so the code being executed by Virgin Media, Spain's ONO, Sweden's Com Hem, TiVo Retail boxes, and TiVo's MSO boxes shares a high percentage of commonality.


----------



## mr_smits

bradleys said:


> True, but you can still purchase the TiVo Stream. They are just trying to differentiate the models both in pricing and options (and cost to produce).


I'm not sure I want to buy a stand alone Stream based on what I've read in the forums. Plus another box to plug in.

At least I have an option.


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> TiVo spent 3+ years unifying the Series 4 code-base so the code being executed by Virgin Media, Spain's ONO, Sweden's Com Hem, TiVo Retail boxes, and TiVo's MSO boxes shares a high percentage of commonality.


Right, but Virgin had the HDUI guide, season passes, etc months ahead of US retail customers. And they have apps like Twitter and Facebook that we've never seen...


----------



## innocentfreak

mr_smits said:


> I'm not sure I want to buy a stand alone Stream based on what I've read in the forums. Plus another box to plug in.
> 
> At least I have an option.


At least with the Stream you can plug it in anywhere as long as it is on the same network as the TiVo.


----------



## mr_smits

innocentfreak said:


> At least with the Stream you can plug it in anywhere as long as it is on the same network as the TiVo.


Compared to Stream support integrated on the chip, I'm not sure I see the advantage here.


----------



## slowbiscuit

mr_smits said:


> I'm not sure I want to buy a stand alone Stream based on what I've read in the forums. Plus another box to plug in.
> 
> At least I have an option.


No Android support, no sale here don't care whether it's Stream or on the box - both of our tablets are Android. Yet another reason why Tivo routinely gets lampooned in the tech press for releasing half-assed stuff.

(And yes we know, it's not their fault Android was late to the game with DRM etc. etc. etc. I really don't care what the excuses are at this point, it's way overdue just like pretty much everything else Tivo.)


----------



## innocentfreak

mr_smits said:


> Compared to Stream support integrated on the chip, I'm not sure I see the advantage here.


It is only an advantage in the sense you aren't restricted to where you can plug it in. If I had to plug in the Stream at my TiVo it wouldn't be an option even for me.

So while yes it is another box to plug in, you are pretty open to where you can plug it in.

Also we still don't know if the Premiere 6 tuner will be a full Stream integrated. It could only offer a portion of what the Stream does. For example it could be limited to 1 feed rather than 4.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

For what it's worth, the S5's chip can transcode 2 streams, compared to the Stream's 4 streams. Unknown if there would be a fixed limit of 1 on the S5 for some reason, but we know it's capable of 2.

Plus, for now we don't know what kind of performance hit the CPU takes while transcoding is in progress. On paper it's a capable chip and it probably has dedicated transistors integrated on the die for it, but it's an intense process and still a question mark. Meanwhile, the Premiere CPU will turn to crap by just downloading a web video.


----------



## davezatz

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Plus, for now we don't know what kind of performance hit the CPU takes while transcoding is in progress. On paper it's a capable chip and it probably has dedicated transistors integrated on the die for it, but it's an intense process and still a question mark.


DISH Hopper uses the same chip for integrated Slingbox capabilities. I'm not aware of any performance related issues, but I don't follow satellite hardware all that closely.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

davezatz said:


> DISH Hopper uses the same chip for integrated Slingbox capabilities. I'm not aware of any performance related issues, but I don't follow satellite hardware all that closely.


Yeah, I was wondering if anybody ever reported any performance issues too.


----------



## Philmatic

The 6-Tuner TiVo's CPU is similar to the ARM Cortex-A12/Apple A6X, so a huge increase in speed. What isn't clear is if the DMIPS calculation is per core or total. The A12/A6x can do 3K DMIPS PER Core, with two cores standard. Broadcom only specifies 3K DMIPS, not clear if that it total or 3K DMIPS per core.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Philmatic said:


> The 6-Tuner TiVo's CPU is similar to the ARM Cortex-A12/Apple A6X, so a huge increase in speed. What isn't clear is if the DMIPS calculation is per core or total. The A12/A6x can do 3K DMIPS PER Core, with two cores standard. Broadcom only specifies 3K DMIPS, not clear if that it total or 3K DMIPS per core.


I've been confused by this too because they say both depending on the webpage/press release.

http://www.broadcom.com/products/Cable/Cable-Set-Top-Box-Solutions/BCM7425
"Broadcom's 40nm MoCA 2.0-integrated STB and Gateway platforms are powered by its high performance dual thread Zephyr (MIPS®-based) CPU that delivers 3000 DMIPS with industry-leading processor capability."

http://investor.broadcom.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=541251
"In the media server cable, satellite and IP STB market, Broadcom introduces two new 40nm cable STB SoCs that feature an ultra-high performance MIPS®-based 1.3 GHz dual threaded applications processor with an additional 3000 DMIPS of hardware processing performance, totaling 6000 DMIPS."

The second quote goes on to describe the 7425 and 7424. I don't know what to make of it. Since 3000 DMIPS is still a significant boost I'm not complaining either way.

I would still like to know what the Mini's CPU's processor performance is, but they don't publish the 7418 data.


----------



## Philmatic

BigJimOutlaw said:


> http://investor.broadcom.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=541251
> "In the media server cable, satellite and IP STB market, Broadcom introduces two new 40nm cable STB SoCs that feature an ultra-high performance MIPS®-based 1.3 GHz dual threaded applications processor with an additional 3000 DMIPS of hardware processing performance, *totaling 6000 DMIPS.*"
> 
> The second quote goes on to describe the 7425 and 7424. I don't know what to make of it. Since 3000 DMIPS is still a significant boost I'm not complaining either way.


The second quote leads me to believe that they mistakenly omitted the "per core" designation in the PDF. It's easier to omit something, than to claim something that isn't true.

The reason I am fixated on single thread performance is because that is where we are likely to get the best bang for our performance buck. It's nice that we have two cores, that will allow for more simultaneous work, but single thread performance will be the most visible.

The note about the new channel change engine is exciting as well.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

This was an edit originally, but just making a new post instead...

Some technical writeups itemize the transcoder and the "applications processor" separately. So I'm wondering if the transcoder is its own unique 3000 DMIPS unit on the die, in addition to the 3000 DMIPS, 1.3GHz, dual-core Zephyr?

EDIT:

Dug up some more on the Zephyr.

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1257982
The Zephyr is the brand name for the BRCM 5000. It appears to be itself a dual core 1.3GHz chip with 3000 DMIPS of total performance. This is still 3x the dual-core Premiere, which should be suitable enough for the UI and apps. I agree, though, that the single core performance is where the bang is at.

I'm guessing the transcoder may be its own 3000 DMIPS subsystem on the die.


----------



## Dan203

I'm not sure a transocder would be measured in DMIPS. It's a specialized chip designed only to do only one thing. DMIPS is a benchmark meant more for general purpose CPUs.


----------



## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> I thought the chip they will be using is limted to two streams?


It was answered after my post that it is 2 streams. I was just throwing out a number since I could see with the rest of the processing it would be limited so people might still want a Stream.


----------



## aaronwt

innocentfreak said:


> It was answered after my post that it is 2 streams. I was just throwing out a number since I could see with the rest of the processing it would be limited so people might still want a Stream.


I just deleted my post. I didn't realize there were alot more posts to read until I refreshed the page.


----------



## Dan203

I wonder if the new unit will be able to do two transcodes AND three streams to Minis at the same time? Or if it'll be 3 devices no matter if it's a Mini or an iPad? 

With the standalone Stream it can technically transocode 4 streams at a time, but a single TiVo can only feed it 3 streams out at a time, so you'd only ever max it out if you had two TiVos and at least one of the users was streaming something from the second TiVo.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> I'm not sure a transocder would be measured in DMIPS. It's a specialized chip designed only to do only one thing. DMIPS is a benchmark meant more for general purpose CPUs.


That's probably correct. In any event there appears to be some sort of additional 3000 DMIPS subsystem on the die besides the general purpose CPU, whatever its purpose may be for.

If they could harness it to handle apps/UI and DVR overhead separately, that'd be a bonus... but my pessimism would think that's probably not a right-away thing (kinda like dual-core support this generation.)


----------



## Dan203

BigJimOutlaw said:


> That's probably correct. In any event there appears to be some sort of additional subsystem on the die besides the general purpose CPU, whatever its purpose may be for.
> 
> If they could harness it to handle apps/UI and DVR overhead separately, that'd be a bonus... but my pessimism would think that's probably not a right-away thing (kinda like dual-core support this generation.)
> 
> But performance will improve nonetheless.


I'm betting the transcoder is independent of the main CPU, even if it is on-die, just like the GPU. So whether it's sitting idle or running at full capacity it will have no effect on the main CPU or the performance of apps. It's possible using it might cause a slight slowdown in bus or I/O operations, but TiVo will likely account for that and dedicate enough resources to the transcoding to keep it from interfering with the other functions of the box.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> I'm betting the transcoder is independent of the main CPU, even if it is on-die, just like the GPU. So whether it's sitting idle or running at full capacity it will have no effect on the main CPU or the performance of apps. It's possible using it might cause a slight slowdown in bus or I/O operations, but TiVo will likely account for that and dedicate enough resources to the transcoding to keep it from interfering with the other functions of the box.


Agreed. Whatever the subsystem is, Broadcom claims it has its own 3K of DMIPS, so if the transcoder isn't measured in DMIPS, this would be a third independent unit of some kind.


----------



## series5orpremier

slowbiscuit said:


> No Android support, no sale here don't care whether it's Stream or on the box - both of our tablets are Android. Yet another reason why Tivo routinely gets lampooned in the tech press for releasing half-assed stuff.


If they don't give me the specs that *I* want instead of the cut-rate specs they tell me to take I'm not buying. Of course they could have avoided this mess by including OTA capability on the PRO which they're charging a premium for anyway, but that would have made too much sense.


----------



## Dan203

series5orpremier said:


> If they don't give me the specs that *I* want instead of the cut-rate specs they tell me to take I'm not buying. Of course they could have avoided this mess by including OTA capability on the PRO which they're charging a premium for anyway, but that would have made too much sense.


That may not be possible. There might not be an ATSC tuner in existence that can do 6 streams. Up until very recently there wasn't even one that could do 4.


----------



## series5orpremier

They maybe could have at least done separate configurations like on the baseline model - you get your choice of 4 OTA tuners or 6 digital cable; or 4 OTA/2 digital cable vs. 6 digital cable. Either that or do a "PRO" version of the baseline 4 tuner model. I would think tech savvy premium users would appreciate the option of viewing broadcast nets in pure OTA HD as opposed to compressed HD that many cable companies provide.


----------



## Dan203

I don't think there is a big enough market of OTA only users to justify those options. They likely did the 4 tuner unit in the cable or OTA because it was easy and cheap to accomplish. A premium OTA only unit would probably not be a big seller, and creating some sort of hybrid unit with 6/4 cable/OTA would just be confusing.

As it is now the best you can do for OTA is 2 tuners, so 4 tuners is an improvement. You can also upgrade the drive on a 4 tuner unit via eSATA and add a standalone Stream to gain all the same features as the 6 tuner box. So it's not like there is really anything exclusive except integration.


----------



## NotNowChief

Specs Shmecs.

I just hope they don't drop the ball on this with incomplete functionality like the Mini and Stream.

If the Series 4 is the "800 pound gorilla of home entertainment", let's all hope that the Series 5 is not the "1000 pound Bigfoot of TiVo fans disappointment".


----------



## Dan203

NotNowChief said:


> I just hope they don't drop the ball on this with incomplete functionality like the Mini and Stream.


That's pretty much a given. Since it will run basically the same software as those devices I don't expect there to be much improvement to functionality.

Although in my case if it can just run the HDUI and apps as fast as the Mini I'm buying. Even if for all other intents and purposes it's identical to the Elite I have now.


----------



## tivogurl

Dan203 said:


> That's pretty much a given. Since it will run basically the same software as those devices I don't expect there to be much improvement to functionality.


It does make me wonder what TiVo's software budget is like. Their rate of output does an excellent simulation of a lone programmer working in a basement.


----------



## Dan203

I worked with their software development team like 6-8 years ago and it was relatively small. Given all the projects they have going at a given time it wouldn't surprise me if there were only 1-2 guys actually tasked to working on the HDUI.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> I worked with their software development team like 6-8 years ago and it was relatively small. Given all the projects they have going at a given time it wouldn't surprise me if there were only 1-2 guys actually tasked to working on the HDUI.


TiVo had 461 regular, temporary, and part-time employees engaged in research & development as of January 31, 2013 (down from 526 the year before). I would guess that approximately 50% of those employees are involved with software development. I expect we will see a further reduction in headcount this year since their R&D expenses are slowly decreasing.


----------



## P42

"approximately 50% of those employees are involved with software development" does not mean that they have 230 software engineers, after all someone must be doing QA, and other staff tied up in supporting these engineers. Still a decent number of eggheads.


----------



## mattack

Philmatic said:


> The fact that it took them this long to address the 2.2TiB limit is pretty embarrassing. Hopefully they moved away entirely from the 32-bit TiVo kernel and OS and moved to something more modern. Theoretically the Flash UI can run atop any CPU architecture, that was one of its major selling points.


I wouldn't call that exactly "embarrassing". Obviously they have to change the entire filesystem from underneath. Again, that makes all of our hacking tools WORTHLESS. (IIRC, even the current 2 TB limit is just by increasing the block size, so you're "wasting" space with small files, but obviously files are going to usually be in the hundreds of megabytes size nowadays.)


----------



## lpwcomp

mattack said:


> I wouldn't call that exactly "embarrassing". Obviously they have to change the entire filesystem from underneath. Again, that makes all of our hacking tools WORTHLESS. (IIRC, even the current 2 TB limit is just by increasing the block size, so you're "wasting" space with small files, but obviously files are going to usually be in the hundreds of megabytes size nowadays.)


Considering that fact that, with weaKnees help, you can have a total of 4TB (2 2TB drives, 1 internal & 1 external) on a Premiere, I doubt very seriously if a filesystem rewrite is required. If the h/w supports it, all that should be necessary is a Linux kernel upgrade. Does no one remember the 137GB limit?


----------



## Dan203

sbiller said:


> TiVo had 461 regular, temporary, and part-time employees engaged in research & development as of January 31, 2013 (down from 526 the year before). I would guess that approximately 50% of those employees are involved with software development. I expect we will see a further reduction in headcount this year since their R&D expenses are slowly decreasing.


TiVo has a lot of projects that could be encompassed under R&D. Several of which are contracted out to 3rd party development houses who probably count all their employees, so I don't think that really gives us much of an idea as to how many people are on the team that works on the HDUI. Honestly if it's more then a few people then they are doing a terrible job and managing their time.


----------



## Grakthis

sbiller said:


> TiVo had 461 regular, temporary, and part-time employees engaged in research & development as of January 31, 2013 (down from 526 the year before). I would guess that approximately 50% of those employees are involved with software development. I expect we will see a further reduction in headcount this year since their R&D expenses are slowly decreasing.


No.

There is no possible way they have even 15 developers writing software for the TiVo.

Look man, I work with some big companies... and I am a developer... I do not think you understand these industries.

I mean, I can tell you about a company that makes welders, smart welders at that, and they have literally one person writing new firmware. One. This is a company worth over 10B dollars.

TiVo might have 5 guys writing new code, 3 of whom are working on new features and 2 of whom are working on bugs and updates. Then they might have 2 QA guys.

I'm capping it there. If they had more than that, we'd see faster feature roll-outs.


----------



## MeInDallas

I'm actually surprised Tivo has that many employees, I thought it was probably around the 100 mark.


----------



## innocentfreak

http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/07/tivo-series-5-roamio-pro-and-roamio-plus-dvrs-pop-up-in-fcc/

TiVo Series 5 'Roamio Pro' and 'Roamio Plus' DVRs pop up in FCC filings



Spoiler


----------



## wco81

"Roamio" as in you can view your recordings while roaming around?

So place-shifting capabilities of some kind? Or is it some web streaming stuff?


----------



## sbiller

wco81 said:


> "Roamio" as in you can view your recordings while roaming around?
> 
> So place-shifting capabilities of some kind? Or is it some web streaming stuff?


Since they have embedded WiFi perhaps they can easily roam anywhere in the house?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I guess the data about the size was backwards. The "arching" box is the larger of the two, at 14.3". While the 6-tuner boxes are about 11.5" wide and 1.5" tall.


----------



## SullyND

I wonder if the Mini will be rechristened as Juliet?


----------



## sneagle

Since they are outed in the FCC filing, how long before they are formally announced? 

Doesn't Apple usually not have the FCC filings released until Apple is ready?


----------



## innocentfreak

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I guess the data about the size was backwards. The "arching" box is the larger of the two, at 14.3". While the 6-tuner boxes are about 11.5" wide and 1.5" tall.
> 
> The arching box has a "cable/ant" label, while the smaller boxes say cable/moca.


1.5 seems really short especially considering drives are about 26mm or 1 inch.

It doesn't leave much space for airflow over the surface of the drive.

The Premiere is 2.4" per the TiVo page.

It does make sense if you think about it though as far as the size being the other away around. The 4 tuner probably needs more space for the OTA parts.


----------



## Dan203

TiVo doesn't typically announce these things. They usually just lift the media embargo and put out a simple press release about a week before they start selling.


----------



## sbiller

So I think Richard didn't quite interpret the FCC filings correctly... there are really three boxes... here is the comment I posted on engadget.



> Looking a bit closer at the FCC exhibits I think we are actually talking about three boxes. The Model TCD846500 with FCC ID TGN-TCD8465 is the curve shaped box and it is the basic 4-tuner OTA/Cable Roamio box with no extra designation. It also appears that it won't have MoCA.
> 
> The other two boxes are in the more traditional form factor - Roamio Plus (TCD848000) and Roamio Pro (TCD840300) with FCC ID TGN-TCD8400. It appears that the Roamio Pro is the only box that has the embedded Stream (transcoder) functionality based on the filing which is a bit surprising since we think the box is using the Broadcom chip that has a transcoder built-in. You would think there would need to be a different FCC test if the boxes used a different processor.
> 
> I'm still confused a bit about the lack of MoCA referenced in the FCC test report for the Roamio Plus since it would render the back-panel wrong for the Roamio Plus. The MoCA certification appears to be on the Roamio Plus box as well.
> 
> The bottom-line as called-out in the earlier Dave Zatz post is there are three boxes, Roamio, Roamio Plus, and Roamio Pro.


----------



## CrispyCritter

MeInDallas said:


> I'm actually surprised Tivo has that many employees, I thought it was probably around the 100 mark.


Just supplementing sbiller's figures:

From the annual report, 
"At February 28, 2013, we employed approximately 576 full time employees, including 50 in service operations, 354 in research and development, 51 in sales and marketing, and 121 in general and administration."

So that means they probably have around 100 consultants/contractors in their R&D side in addition to the full-time folks above.

Note that TiVo has always regarded itself as a software engineering house. They have never wanted to be in the hardware business, and still don't. But the unexpectedly poor reception of DVR's upon introduction forced them into the business, since there wasn't enough money for the big hardware folks like Sony, Phillips and Toshiba to remain interested.

I would guess just the audience measurement side of TiVo has more software engineers than the 5 postulated here for all of TiVo.


----------



## mattack

lpwcomp said:


> Considering that fact that, with weaKnees help, you can have a total of 4TB (2 2TB drives, 1 internal & 1 external) on a Premiere, I doubt very seriously if a filesystem rewrite is required. If the h/w supports it, all that should be necessary is a Linux kernel upgrade. Does no one remember the 137GB limit?


The hardware does NOT support it. That's the point.

An 8 bit number can't hold a number greater than 255. That is a very simplified analogy of the problem. The existing limit is the MAXIMUM size that the filesystem supports.. So it would need a new or tweaked (changed) filesystem to support bigger sizes.. or somehow be able to add more partitions (though I suspect the partition limit is involved in the same kinds of limitations I describe.. maybe there's only 4 bits for # of partitions?)

The Weaknees is "just" 2 drives at the maximum married.


----------



## lpwcomp

mattack said:


> The Weaknees is "just" 2 drives at the maximum married.


Which means that the _*filesystem*_ can support 4TB. Logically, the drives are treated as one volume.


----------



## Philmatic

The limit is 2.2TB (Or 2TiB) per drive, so the maximum that the current Premiere DVRs can address is 4.4TB (Or 4TiB). The external storage solution that is used bypasses the kernel limitations but still maxes out at 2.2TB (2TB).


----------



## lpwcomp

Philmatic said:


> The limit is 2.2TB (Or 2TiB) per drive, so the maximum that the current Premiere DVRs can address is 4.4TB (Or 4TiB). The external storage solution that is used bypasses the kernel limitations but still maxes out at 2.2TB (2TB).


And that is my point. It s a _*Linux kernel*_ limitation, not a _*filesystem*_ limitation. There is also a possible disk controller issue in the current h/w. I seriously doubt that the TiVo MFS maximum volume size is smaller than that of ext2, which is 32TB.


----------



## ggieseke

According to the mfstools source, the MFS volume header (aka superheader) uses an unsigned 64-bit field to hold the total number of sectors. I use the same structure definitions in DvrBARS.

Even if you assume that it's actually a signed number and that a sector will always mean 512 bytes, that's almost 4 zettabytes. I don't think the current MFS filesystem poses any practical limitations.


----------



## davezatz

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I guess the data about the size was backwards. The "arching" box is the larger of the two, at 14.3". While the 6-tuner boxes are about 11.5" wide and 1.5" tall.


One diagram indicates the width of the box. The other diagram indicates the dimensions of the back plate or label.

Interesting that the arched model has one AV breakout - wonder if it's for composite, component, or both. I'm guessing composite only and that only the higher-end units will feature component.

(For reference, my Premiere looks to be 16.5" wide and sits about 2.5" high.)

Update: Looking at the design notes, AV was "composite" until about April - so that suggests only 6-tuner is component.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

davezatz said:


> One diagram indicates the width of the box. The other diagram indicates the dimensions of the back plate or label.
> 
> Interesting that the arched model has one AV breakout - wonder if it's for composite, component, or both. I'm guessing composite only and that only the higher-end units will feature component.
> 
> (For reference, my Premiere looks to be 16.5" wide and sits about 2.5" high.)


Ah, I see now. The diagram even indicates vinyl with PSA backing. Derp derp Jim.

You're probably right about the A/V socket.

The report and labeling doesn't explicitly mention MoCA on the SFF box. I know they're making this box as inexpensively as possible, but that would slightly suck since one would think they'd make that a standard, at least as a "client" like the Mini if not with full-blown ethernet bridging. It's already on the chip... Hope they have it.

The other report stating MoCA is only on the Pro and not the Plus doesn't compute with the moca alliance certificate. Sure as hell hope they're wrong on that. LOL.


----------



## sbiller

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The report and labeling doesn't explicitly mention MoCA on the SFF box. I know they're making this box as cheap as possible, but that would slightly suck since one would think they'd make that a standard, at least as a "client" like the Mini if not with full-blown ethernet bridging. It's already on the chip.
> 
> The other report stating MoCA is only on the Pro model and not the Plus conflicts with the moca alliance certificate. That doesn't compute. Sure as hell hope they're wrong on that. LOL.


I'm surprised the 4-tuner box doesn't have the MoCA label on the coax port since I think TiVo's MSO partners would demand it for their WH installations.

Also agree that the MoCA Alliance certificate is assigned to the Plus unit and the FCC report indicates the hardware is identical. The only thing I can think of is the Plus unit is using a pin-for-pin identical Broadcom chip that doesn't include the transcoding and/or MoCA support.


----------



## Grakthis

CrispyCritter said:


> Just supplementing sbiller's figures:
> 
> From the annual report,
> "At February 28, 2013, we employed approximately 576 full time employees, including 50 in service operations, 354 in research and development, 51 in sales and marketing, and 121 in general and administration."
> 
> So that means they probably have around 100 consultants/contractors in their R&D side in addition to the full-time folks above.
> 
> Note that TiVo has always regarded itself as a software engineering house. They have never wanted to be in the hardware business, and still don't. But the unexpectedly poor reception of DVR's upon introduction forced them into the business, since there wasn't enough money for the big hardware folks like Sony, Phillips and Toshiba to remain interested.
> 
> I would guess just the audience measurement side of TiVo has more software engineers than the 5 postulated here for all of TiVo.


If they truly have dozens of software engineers, they are literally the worst engineers ever hired by any company and the hiring manager should be fired, hired again, then fired again just to be sure.


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> I'm surprised the 4-tuner box doesn't have the MoCA label on the coax port since I think TiVo's MSO partners would demand it for their WH installations.


Eh, MSO partners wouldn't require a box that also does OTA. Perhaps they'll keep some Premiere variants around or rely on other Pace hardware. Hm.


----------



## atmuscarella

sbiller said:


> I'm surprised the 4-tuner box doesn't have the MoCA label on the coax port since I think TiVo's MSO partners would demand it for their WH installations.
> 
> Also agree that the MoCA Alliance certificate is assigned to the Plus unit and the FCC report indicates the hardware is identical. The only thing I can think of is the Plus unit is using a pin-for-pin identical Broadcom chip that doesn't include the transcoding and/or MoCA support.





davezatz said:


> Eh, MSO partners wouldn't require a box that also does OTA. Perhaps they'll keep some Premiere variants around or rely on other Pace hardware. Hm.


My question would be is there enough savings between a 4 tuner box and 6 tuner box to justify a cable company messing with it?

On the other hand if the 4 tuner box was designed to be a stand alone only box (not the Hub of a whole home system) like the current 2 tuner Premiere maybe MoCA wouldn't be that much of a benefit.


----------



## sbiller

atmuscarella said:


> My question would be is there enough savings between a 4 tuner box and 6 tuner box to justify a cable company messing with it?
> 
> On the other hand if the 4 tuner box was designed to be a stand alone only box (not the Hub of a whole home system) like the current 2 tuner Premiere maybe MoCA wouldn't be that much of a benefit.


Good points... that appears to be the strategy. The 6-Tuner gateway boxes (Pro/Plus) and the base 4-Tuner stand-alone box. If the Plus price point is low enough it makes even more sense.


----------



## NYHeel

sbiller said:


> Good points... that appears to be the strategy. The 6-Tuner gateway boxes (Pro/Plus) and the base 4-Tuner stand-alone box. If the Plus price point is low enough it makes even more sense.


That seems really dumb. While I'd love to have the 6 tuner box, 4 tuners is enough for almost everyone. It seems nuts to force people to buy the 6 tuner box for whole home.


----------



## jrtroo

We have found that, for whatever reason, folks with Tivos still watch live TV a significant amount of the time. So, a 6-tuner box makes sense for whole home so that the minis can provide this.


----------



## moyekj

I never watch live TV but during NBA season I need at least 5 tuners just for myself during primetime, so a 6 tuner unit is very welcome and I'll be 1st in line to get one (also expecting HDUI and flash apps to run MUCH faster than the current horrible experience of the Elite).


----------



## sbiller

moyekj said:


> I never watch live TV but during NBA season I need at least 5 tuners just for myself during primetime, so a 6 tuner unit is very welcome and I'll be 1st in line to get one (also expecting HDUI and flash apps to run MUCH faster than the current horrible experience of the Elite).


I wouldn't describe the experience of the Elite as horrible... the word I like to use is sluggish...


----------



## Joe3

sbiller said:


> I wouldn't describe the experience of the Elite as horrible... the word I like to use is sluggish...


Horrible:up:
horrific, shocking, appalling, horrifying, terrifying, frightening, harrowing, bloodcurdling, hair-raising, terrible, black, horrendous, dreadful, frightful, repulsive, revolting, abominable, grim, hideous, gruesome, monstrous, ghastly, awful, grisly, grisy

Or

Sluggish:up: 
lethargic, listless, torpid, heavy, dull, slow, slow-moving, slothful, languid, lazy, idle, inactive, apathetic, lifeless, unresponsive, phlegmatic

I don't know~


----------



## davezatz

jrtroo said:


> We have found that, for whatever reason, folks with Tivos still watch live TV a significant amount of the time. So, a 6-tuner box makes sense for whole home so that the minis can provide this.


We watch a lot of live TV and more VOD, On Demand, and Netflix than DVR-ed shows these days. And we also only have two "real" TVs at this time. I'll probably stick with my Premiere Elite. If Netflix and Amazon come to the Mini, I'll move the Elite to the basement as a headless hub and pick up a second Mini for the living room.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I'd say general usage is sluggish. Apps are borderline horrible. There's easily a 50% chance Netflix will make my system go unresponsive to my remote during a 42 minute program. Odds go up for a full length movie. I can't be bothered with it.

I gave up waiting and instead velcro'ed a Roku 3 to the back of my TV. It is very fast, Netflix and Amazon load in 5 seconds, and the apps haven't crashed yet. I'd love to not have to switch video inputs or handle a second remote, but the experience and extensive app options override that completely.

The S5 will help, but I'm still doubtful Tivo cares to thrive as an app platform on the whole. And even if it did, by the time that happens, they'll probably be selling Roku 5's with voip apps or whatever else.


----------



## jcthorne

So its beginning to look like the only Series 5 unit that will support OTA broadcast will still not support Mini's, will require external MOCA and will loose component video outputs. It also will not have stream capabilities.

Gee, Thanks Tivo for supporting OTA users. Not really sure this is any sort of an upgrade at all.

Call me VERY disappointed in this news. Its a Premiere with a slightly faster interface and less features. Its not even significantly smaller.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

jcthorne said:


> So its beginning to look like the only Series 5 unit that will support OTA broadcast will still not support Mini's, will require external MOCA and will loose component video outputs. It also will not have stream capabilities.


I don't see why it wouldn't support the Mini. But the other stuff, yeah.


----------



## sbiller

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I'd say general usage is sluggish. Apps are borderline horrible. There's easily a 50% chance Netflix will make my system go unresponsive to my remote during a 42 minute program. Odds go up for a full length movie. I can't be bothered with it.
> 
> The S5 will help, but I'm still doubtful Tivo cares to thrive as an app platform on the whole. And even if it did, by the time that happens, they'll probably be selling Roku 5's with voip apps or whatever else.


I would say that depends on the app. I agree that the Netflix app is the single biggest problem. Its unfortunate that TiVo needs to rely on Netflix to fix the problem since they wrote the app. I would say the new MLB.TV app is an example of an app that works pretty well. I also think that Google has pushed some YouTube updates to the app. My recent experience with the YouTube app is pretty positive. Lastly, I think the Hulu Plus app is pretty usable as well. With all that said, the launch time of the apps is a problem and the overall OTT experience is much better on my Roku or ATV.

I believe that it is essential for TiVo to create a thriving app environment going forward. The processing power of the Roamio and Mini will help but they need to significantly improve the apps. If Dave's rumors about DIAL support are true that will be a first step in the right direction.

I'm also encouraged that TiVo is looking at Flash alternatives that offer higher performance apps --> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9760826#post9760826

For a comparison between Adobe Air and NME see this link --> http://www.openfl.org/developer/forums/general-discussion/nme-vs-adobe-air/


----------



## sbiller

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I don't see why it wouldn't support the Mini. But the other stuff, yeah.


I agree. I'm pretty certain it will support the Mini. It may not have embedded MoCA.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

jcthorne said:


> So its beginning to look like the only Series 5 unit that will support OTA broadcast will still not support Mini's, will require external MOCA and will loose component video outputs. It also will not have stream capabilities.
> 
> Gee, Thanks Tivo for supporting OTA users. Not really sure this is any sort of an upgrade at all.
> 
> Call me VERY disappointed in this news. Its a Premiere with a slightly faster interface and less features. Its not even significantly smaller.


I just don't think there is much of a market for an OTA DVR and what market there is won't pay the price necessary for TiVo to offer a high end OTA DVR. I don't mind using a basic OTA DVR and another box or two to cover my other needs. I will be happy if my TiVoHDs work for another five years, I won't buy an OTA DVR. No other company is trying to make anything for the market either, so there must not be a market worth competing for.


----------



## bradleys

jcthorne said:


> So its beginning to look like the only Series 5 unit that will support OTA broadcast will still not support Mini's, will require external MOCA and will loose component video outputs. It also will not have stream capabilities.


What have you seen that makes you think the base S5 will not support Mini in OTA mode? The Mini is designed to work with any 4+ tuner TiVo and the base Roamio (hate the name) definately meets that criteria.

Stream integration? You are correct, but you can purchase the Stream as an add-on box. Some used boxes should go on sale after the S5 hits the market.

Am I a buyer? That is an interesting question... I have never had that big of an issue with the performance of my Premier and I don't use a lot of OTA apps and if I did a $99 Roku is a better investment.

The big push for me would be the Hub and Spoke implementation. I have six tuners accross three TiVo's. It would be nice to consolidate those tuners into one box (effectively bringing the cooperative tuner allocation I have wanted) and use a few Mini's.

So - I won't be a fast adopter, but I will probably upgrade.


----------



## innocentfreak

Dave just sent out a tweet about possible pricing. 

$199 and $399 with a September 30th release date.

I know in the past we discussed $199 for the 4 tuner as a sensible goal for TiVo. 

$399 is hopefully the 3TB model, but I would guess it is the base 6 tuner with the Pro going for $499 like the Elite launched.


----------



## davezatz

innocentfreak said:


> Dave just sent out a tweet about possible pricing. $199 and $399 with a September 30th release date.


These may both be placeholders in the system... although I'm more confident about the pricing, less confident about the date - which may be earlier. (Edit: And of course we're still missing one price. Wonder how long the Premiere will carry on - a few months?)


----------



## innocentfreak

davezatz said:


> These may both be placeholders in the system... although I'm more confident about the pricing, less confident about the date - which may be earlier.


The date makes sense if they want to debut it at CEDIA the week before. The Elite launched around the same time.

Am I correct in my assumption on the pricing? Just saw your edit. I guess they could always offer the 6 tuner base for $199 and the Pro for $399 so maybe there are only two price points for three models.

It will be interesting to see what if any offers they have at launch for upgrades and Mini bundles.


----------



## rifleman69

jrtroo said:


> We have found that, for whatever reason, folks with Tivos still watch live TV a significant amount of the time. So, a 6-tuner box makes sense for whole home so that the minis can provide this.


Exactly. The extra two tuners in theory would be providing the streams to the Mini's the majority of the time.


----------



## rifleman69

davezatz said:


> These may both be placeholders in the system... although I'm more confident about the pricing, less confident about the date - which may be earlier. (Edit: And of course we're still missing one price. Wonder how long the Premiere will carry on - a few months?)


Placeholders in the system would more fall along the lines of the prices that one sees new Apple products show up in the Best Buy system. The $199 and $399 sound legit.


----------



## bradleys

I wonder of $199 to $399 is the range? That would be interesting...

More likely:

P5 - 4 Tuner @ $199
P5 - 6 Tuner Plus @ $399
P5 - 6 Tuner Pro @ $499


----------



## NotNowChief

Hopefully the DTA issue will be deployed by then so we actually "have" a 6-tuner box.


----------



## Dan203

I can't imagine why the 4 tuner would not have MoCa. It's built right into the chipset. There would be no cost savings to turning it off. Maybe it's not listed on the label because that port can be used for either cable or OTA and MoCa will only work with the former?


----------



## Dan203

NotNowChief said:


> Hopefully the DTA issue will be deployed by then so we actually "have" a 6-tuner box.


I'm betting it is. This is something their MSO partners want as well, so I'm sure they're getting pressure for it on all sides.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

$199 for the 4-tuner would be pleasantly surprising (I was expecting 300-400-500 price points).

Hopefully the jump from $200 to $400 doesn't just get the you the Plus model. $200-300-400 would sound good.


----------



## mr_smits

jcthorne said:


> Call me VERY disappointed in this news. Its a Premiere with a slightly faster interface and less features. Its not even significantly smaller.


I was hoping the OTA model would come with Stream capability for when Android support finally arrives in 2016.  The reason I've put up with such a buggy Netflix app on my Premieres is because I don't want to have yet another box to buy, plug in, and maintain.

I suppose this makes sense for Tivo given hard drive size isn't much to differentiate models any more. If Netflix and Amazon streaming arrives on the Minis and these Roamio models, then I will likely upgrade.


----------



## atmuscarella

innocentfreak said:


> Dave just sent out a tweet about possible pricing.
> 
> $199 and $399 with a September 30th release date.
> 
> I know in the past we discussed $199 for the 4 tuner as a sensible goal for TiVo.
> 
> $399 is hopefully the 3TB model, but I would guess it is the base 6 tuner with the Pro going for $499 like the Elite launched.


My guess back in post 25 was:

"My guess for price is:

4 tuner = $199 or $250
6 tuner $250 or $300
6 tuner XL model $399 or $450

With Service costs at the current level."​
Looks like the same ball park. I will likely pickup a new 4 tuner and sell 2 of my existing ones - hope it has better OTA reception than my Premiere.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> I'm betting it is. This is something their MSO partners want as well, so I'm sure they're getting pressure for it on all sides.


FWIW... it looks like DTA is still on track.


----------



## aaronwt

sbiller said:


> I agree. I'm pretty certain it will support the Mini. It may not have embedded MoCA.


Or will it support the mini like the current two tuner Premieres do? I can view the content from my OTA only Premiere on my two Minis. But I can't pair the Minis to the two tuner Premiere.


----------



## aaronwt

innocentfreak said:


> Dave just sent out a tweet about possible pricing.
> 
> $199 and $399 with a September 30th release date.
> 
> I know in the past we discussed $199 for the 4 tuner as a sensible goal for TiVo.
> 
> $399 is hopefully the 3TB model, but I would guess it is the base 6 tuner with the Pro going for $499 like the Elite launched.



Holy crap!! If the six tuner box comes in at only $399 I will be doing back flips. That would be less than what I paid for my launch Elite and even my second Elite I bought six months later. And both of those were with 10% off coupons. Unfortunately BestBuy is stingy with coupons now, so I doubt I'll have one to use on the purchase of the six tuner TiVo.

Plus September 30th? That would be the day after my birthday. If that is the release date then I know what birthday present I'm getting for myself.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> Or will it support the mini like the current two tuner Premieres do? I can view the content from my OTA only Premiere on my two Minis. But I can't pair the Minis to the two tuner Premiere.


I would be seriously shocked if the 4 tuner box did not support being a Mini host and equally as shocked if it did not support MoCa. I think people are reading a bit too much into what's printed on that sticker.


----------



## Philmatic

Here are my guesses:

I essentially agree with everything Dave has in his post, with the exception being that I think the Plus and Pro models are identical in every way, with the only difference being that the Pro will have a 3TB hard drive versus the Plus's 1TB drive. So they will both have MoCA, built-in streaming and both run the Broadcom 7425.

Pricing will be as follows:

TiVo Roamio (TCD846500)
4 Tuner, Digital Cable & OTA
500GB HD
$199

TiVo Roamio Plus (TCD848000)
6 Tuner, Digital Cable
1000GB HD
$299

TiVo Roamio Pro (TCD840300)
6 Tuner, Digital Cable
3000GB HD
$399


----------



## mattack

ggieseke said:


> According to the mfstools source, the MFS volume header (aka superheader) uses an unsigned 64-bit field to hold the total number of sectors. I use the same structure definitions in DvrBARS.
> 
> Even if you assume that it's actually a signed number and that a sector will always mean 512 bytes, that's almost 4 zettabytes. I don't think the current MFS filesystem poses any practical limitations.


OK, so then why the current ~2.2 TB limit per drive?


----------



## lpwcomp

mattack said:


> OK, so then why the current ~2.2 TB limit per drive?


*sigh*


----------



## HerronScott

mattack said:


> OK, so then why the current ~2.2 TB limit per drive?


I'm guessing they are currently using MBR (Master Boot Record) partitioning which has a 2TB limit versus GPT (GUID Partition Table) partitioning?

Scott


----------



## jcthorne

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I don't see why it wouldn't support the Mini. But the other stuff, yeah.


No MOCA, no mini. Still might but Moca is Tivo's preferred connection for the mini.


----------



## jcthorne

Dan203 said:


> I would be seriously shocked if the 4 tuner box did not support being a Mini host and equally as shocked if it did not support MoCa. I think people are reading a bit too much into what's printed on that sticker.


I hope you are right. I had hoped for a smaller form factor but that is minor. Any idea what hard drive sizes it will come with? Idealy I would like to replace my home theater Premiere 2TB with a new Roamio first. The others are all streaming boxes and overflow tuners for when the HT box is busy and they will likely not get replaced until later.


----------



## NotNowChief

I'm just hoping that the top-of-the-line model isn't above $399 to keep in line with their current pricing for the top model.


----------



## sbiller

jcthorne said:


> I hope you are right. I had hoped for a smaller form factor but that is minor. Any idea what hard drive sizes it will come with? Idealy I would like to replace my home theater Premiere 2TB with a new Roamio first. The others are all streaming boxes and overflow tuners for when the HT box is busy and they will likely not get replaced until later.


Per Zatz, the 4 Tuner Roamio will have a 500GB HD but it will support an external hard drive as well.


----------



## series5orpremier

Ridiculous to expect the supposedly most cost sensitive customers to spend $100+ on a hard drive upgrade when it would have cost Tivo less than $15 to include the larger drive in the box to begin with.


----------



## ggieseke

mattack said:


> OK, so then why the current ~2.2 TB limit per drive?





HerronScott said:


> I'm guessing they are currently using MBR (Master Boot Record) partitioning which has a 2TB limit versus GPT (GUID Partition Table) partitioning?Scott


It uses the ancient Apple Partition Map scheme, not MBR. The current 2.2TB limit per physical drive or partition is something in the OS.

All of the MFS partitions are treated as one big logical drive by the TiVo software, even if they're spread across multiple physical drives. For a stock Premiere that means it's composed of what linux thinks are four separate drives (/dev/sda10 /dev/sda11 /dev/sda12 /dev/sda13).


----------



## jrtroo

Tivo owners are not the most cost-sensitive customers. For many that can afford a Tivo, the $100 is worth the convenience. For others of us, we will happily do it ourselves, if only for the redundancy of a drive on the shelf.


----------



## aaronwt

series5orpremier said:


> Ridiculous to expect the supposedly most cost sensitive customers to spend $100+ on a hard drive upgrade when it would have cost Tivo less than $15 to include the larger drive in the box to begin with.


$15? The last 1TB drive I bought was around $50 on sale and the 3TB drive I got on sale was $110. There is much more retail price disparity between a 1TB drive and a 3TB drive than $15.


----------



## atmuscarella

series5orpremier said:


> Ridiculous to expect the supposedly most cost sensitive customers to spend $100+ on a hard drive upgrade when it would have cost Tivo less than $15 to include the larger drive in the box to begin with.


I tend to agree the difference between 500 GB and 1TB at this point is very little. TiVo should go with just 2 drive sizes (like now) and it should be 1TB and 3TB


----------



## NYHeel

Right now there's actually a really high markup between the 2TB and 3TB drives. At least with the WD AV drives.

2TB (WD20EURS) on Amazon is only $93 where as the 3TB (WD30EURS) is $147. Amazingly the 1 and 1.5 TB drives from the EURS family are actually more expensive that the 2TB version. 

They do have an AV drive that's $76 at 1TB. Their 500GB AV drive $65 so there isn't a big mark-up to go from 500GB to 2TB on the retail side let alone to 1TB. We're looking at an $11 retail markup from 500GB to 1TB. I feel like any DVR that wants to call itself modern or premium in any way should have at least 1TB in it. And Tivo sells their product as a premium DVR over the basic cable company model.


----------



## innocentfreak

atmuscarella said:


> I tend to agree the difference between 500 GB and 1TB at this point is very little. TiVo should go with just 2 drive sizes (like now) and it should be 1TB and 3TB


I don't disagree.

However I am guessing that the 4 tuner model has increased costs due to the addition of OTA. There could also be an issue where they have leftover units from their previous orders depending on how many units they needed to get the prices where they wanted.

We could see a 1TB model a year from now similar to how they released a refreshed Premiere.


----------



## lessd

NYHeel said:


> Right now there's actually a really high markup between the 2TB and 3TB drives. At least with the WD AV drives.
> 
> 2TB (WD20EURS) on Amazon is only $93 where as the 3TB (WD30EURS) is $147. Amazingly the 1 and 1.5 TB drives from the EURS family are actually more expensive that the 2TB version.
> 
> They do have an AV drive that's $76 at 1TB. Their 500GB AV drive $65 so there isn't a big mark-up to go from 500GB to 2TB on the retail side let alone to 1TB. We're looking at an $11 retail markup from 500GB to 1TB. I feel like any DVR that wants to call itself modern or premium in any way should have at least 1TB in it. And Tivo sells their product as a premium DVR over the basic cable company model.


Retail Hard drive cost may have only a small correlation to high volume OEM Hard Drive cost.


----------



## jkain

Do you suppose the new TiVOs will also include a consistent user interface from top to bottom? I was pretty surprised during my 2 weeks with an XL4 that the new HD user interface is only for the top couple of levels. Anything else and you're time-warped back a decade (also surprising given that they claim 400+ in R&D - really??).


----------



## Grakthis

I'm not sure a 4 tuner, 500GB TiVo for 199 does anything for me. I mean, am I really willing to rebuy hardware just for 2 tuners on one TV? The whole conflict thing just doesn't happen that often and since I have 2 TVs and 2 TiVos I just record it in the other room instead. Even making the UI snappier probably isn't enough to justify rebuying hardware when I have working hardware already.

Come on, TiVo, you have to give me a reason to want to upgrade. Give me an android app and built in stream. Give me Amazon Instant Streaming. Give me DIAL support. Give me a windows 8 app for streaming from the TiVo (or just a regular windows app, whatever).

Giving me 2 more tuners and faster hardware is not worth $200. If my premiere or S3 broke, sure, I'd buy one of these happily. But it's not an incentive to upgrade from what I have right now.


----------



## sbiller

Grakthis said:


> I'm not sure a 4 tuner, 500GB TiVo for 199 does anything for me. I mean, am I really willing to rebuy hardware just for 2 tuners on one TV? The whole conflict thing just doesn't happen that often and since I have 2 TVs and 2 TiVos I just record it in the other room instead. Even making the UI snappier probably isn't enough to justify rebuying hardware when I have working hardware already.
> 
> Come on, TiVo, you have to give me a reason to want to upgrade. Give me an android app and built in stream. Give me Amazon Instant Streaming. Give me DIAL support. Give me a windows 8 app for streaming from the TiVo (or just a regular windows app, whatever).
> 
> Giving me 2 more tuners and faster hardware is not worth $200. If my premiere or S3 broke, sure, I'd buy one of these happily. But it's not an incentive to upgrade from what I have right now.


TiVo is way more interested in new customers versus customers upgrading from their current TiVo's.


----------



## drebbe

TiVo received the waiver it requested from the FCC for its new retail hardware.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-13-1740A1.pdf


----------



## mr_smits

Grakthis said:


> I'm not sure a 4 tuner, 500GB TiVo for 199 does anything for me. I mean, am I really willing to rebuy hardware just for 2 tuners on one TV? The whole conflict thing just doesn't happen that often and since I have 2 TVs and 2 TiVos I just record it in the other room instead.


I'm OTA supplemented with Netflix streaming and Amazon downloads/iPad streaming. I have 2 lifetimed Premieres, one with an upgraded hard drive. I also have a lifetimed TivoHD.

I was thinking the same thing about not sure if it is worth it to upgrade, but the advantages are significant to buy a Roamio and add a Mini or two.


4 tuners on one box. No more conflicts even during the busy season.
All shows in one place. I don't have to remember which box has which episodes. I don't have to manage multiple season passes.
Faster experience. The new processor should be amazing. It needs to be quick and all signs say it will be.
Stream capable (and Android eventually). It will be nice to have the ability to Stream built in. I hope this is built in to even the OTA model. 
Cost savings. The TivoHD and the Premiere boxes consume a lot more electricity than a Mini does. While not a ton of money, I'd rather save it than spend it on old hardware. 

Looking forward to learning what the Roamio boxes consume electricity wise.


----------



## richbrew

drebbe said:


> TiVo received the waiver it requested from the FCC for its new retail hardware.
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-13-1740A1.pdf


That was an interesting read. If anyone has any questions as to what TiVo thinks of analog tuners, this tells you everything you need to know.

28 Waiver Request at iii, 12-13. TiVo states in its Waiver Request that it tracked consumer response to the previous
waiver it received, and only 0.2 % of subscribers commented to TiVo about the absence of analog tuning ability, and
only 0.05% of customers cancelled their subscriptions as a result. Waiver Request at ii.


----------



## b_scott

sbiller said:


> FWIW... it looks like DTA is still on track.


does this mean if there was a conflict it would auto send the recording request to the other box?


----------



## bradleys

b_scott said:


> does this mean if there was a conflict it would auto send the recording request to the other box?


No, this means that you can pair a TiVo Mini and it will dynamically select and release a live tuner when in use.


----------



## socrplyr

b_scott said:


> does this mean if there was a conflict it would auto send the recording request to the other box?


No that is referring to Tivo Mini's use of the DVR's tuners. Right now, a Mini will "steal" the tuner even when not using it, thus reducing the pool of tuners available for recording. In the future, they will only "steal" a tuner when someone wants to watch live TV from a Mini. The Minis have no tuners themselves, so there is nowhere to send a recording too.

Tivo's multi-room solution going forward is to have 1 DVR (hub) with multiple Minis (spokes). They are not and probably will not ever support cooperative scheduling between DVRs (especially with the hub-spoke model).


----------



## b_scott

socrplyr said:


> No that is referring to Tivo Mini's use of the DVR's tuners. Right now, a Mini will "steal" the tuner even when not using it, thus reducing the pool of tuners available for recording. In the future, they will only "steal" a tuner when someone wants to watch live TV from a Mini. The Minis have no tuners themselves, so there is nowhere to send a recording too.
> 
> Tivo's multi-room solution going forward is to have 1 DVR (hub) with multiple Minis (spokes). They are not and probably will not ever support cooperative scheduling between DVRs (especially with the hub-spoke model).


Ahh...

well I don't know if I like that second part. But I guess it wouldn't really change much from the user side.

sounds like Dish hoppers.


----------



## sbiller

bradleys said:


> No, this means that you can pair a TiVo Mini and it will dynamically select and release a live tuner when in use.


And the live tuner, when released, would be available for recording(s).


----------



## SugarBowl

richbrew said:


> That was an interesting read. If anyone has any questions as to what TiVo thinks of analog tuners, this tells you everything you need to know.
> 
> 28 Waiver Request at iii, 12-13. TiVo states in its Waiver Request that it tracked consumer response to the previous
> waiver it received, and only 0.2 % of subscribers commented to TiVo about the absence of analog tuning ability, and
> only 0.05% of customers cancelled their subscriptions as a result. Waiver Request at ii.


I should have responded. I'm OTA for HD and analog cable for the rest.


----------



## lpwcomp

sbiller said:


> And the live tuner, when released, would be available for recording(s).


Ideally, you should be able to start a recording from the Mini that would save the live buffer of whatever tuner it is currently using.


----------



## Dan203

jkain said:


> Do you suppose the new TiVOs will also include a consistent user interface from top to bottom? I was pretty surprised during my 2 weeks with an XL4 that the new HD user interface is only for the top couple of levels. Anything else and you're time-warped back a decade (also surprising given that they claim 400+ in R&D - really??).


I doubt it. They'll probably add a few more screens like WL and maybe Browse By Time/Channel, but I'm betting most of the settings section will remain SD for this initial release.

I'm also betting that the option to switch to a pure SD interface goes away, and that eventually, some day, they will complete the settings section in HD as well.


----------



## Dan203

SugarBowl said:


> I should have responded. I'm OTA for HD and analog cable for the rest.


These units wont do analog at all, so you'll need to stick with the 2 tuner Premiere or at least keep one around until you have access to pure digital. I'm in the same boat. My cable company still has about 35 channels that are analog only. Until they at least start to simulcast I'm stuck keeping a 2 tuner Premiere around for recording those stations.


----------



## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> I'm also betting that the option to switch to a pure SD interface goes away, and that eventually, some day, they will complete the settings section in HD as well.


I hope they don't do that unless they make it so the HDUI is useable when the TiVo is connected to a non-HD TV.


----------



## nooneuknow

lpwcomp said:


> I hope they don't do that unless they make it so the HDUI is useable when the TiVo is connected to a non-HD TV.


:up:


----------



## Philmatic

lpwcomp said:


> I hope they don't do that unless they make it so the HDUI is useable when the TiVo is connected to a non-HD TV.


Define "usable"? The HDUI works fine on non-HD displays? It's just a tight, but works fine.


----------



## lpwcomp

Philmatic said:


> Define "usable"? The HDUI works fine on non-HD displays? It's just a tight, but works fine.


Unless things have changed, you can't even enable it unless the TiVo is connected to an HD TV.


----------



## lessd

lpwcomp said:


> Unless things have changed, you can't even enable it unless the TiVo is connected to an HD TV.


I have one connected to an old CRT TV in a guest room and you can turn on the HDUI but why would you want to, but it does work, remember TiVo would have no way of knowing if you were using the component outputs that could feed most any HDTV in HD, they could only tell if your are using or not using the HDMI output.


----------



## Dan203

On the TiVo itself there is a TV screen size selection option where you can pick 4:3 or 16:9. If you select 4:3 and use the HDUI then the hole UI is letterboxed. This option is missing from the Mini. It can detect 4:3 or 16:9 via HDMI but if you use a component or composite breakout cable it simply squishes the HDUI onto the screen. I'm hoping they bring back the option, but if not then it will still work.

4:3 is essentially dead so I doubt TiVo is going to put any real effort into supporting the SDUI or making the HDUI work without letterboxing on a 4:3 TV.


----------



## lpwcomp

lessd said:


> I have one connected to an old CRT TV in a guest room and you can turn on the HDUI but why would you want to, but it does work, remember TiVo would have no way of knowing if you were using the component outputs that could feed most any HDTV in HD, they could only tell if your are using or not using the HDMI output.


Nope, doesn't work for me. If I attempt to select it, I am informed that you must have your TV aspect ratio set to either 16:9 or "Smart TV" (the latter option doesn't even seem to exist anymore) and at least one HD output format selected.


----------



## Dan203

lpwcomp said:


> Nope, doesn't work for me. If I attempt to select it, I am informed that you must have your TV aspect ratio set to either 16:9 or "Smart TV" (the latter option doesn't even seem to exist anymore) and at least one HD output format selected.


You have to select the 720p option. However if you use the composite video output it will always be down sampled to 480i so it'll still work.


----------



## CrispyCritter

lpwcomp said:


> Nope, doesn't work for me. If I attempt to select it, I am informed that you must have your TV aspect ratio set to either 16:9 or "Smart TV" (the latter option doesn't even seem to exist anymore) and at least one HD output format selected.


But nothing prevents you from selecting an HD output format, and then, for instance, using the composite output. I think there are other tricks as well, but it's been a year for me since I did it. I ran the HDUI for a couple years on my old CRT. mostly in the name of a consistent interface.


----------



## lpwcomp

CrispyCritter said:


> But nothing prevents you from selecting an HD output format, and then, for instance, using the composite output. I think there are other tricks as well, but it's been a year for me since I did it. I ran the HDUI for a couple years on my old CRT. mostly in the name of a consistent interface.


It's not the output format that is the problem for me, it is the TV aspect ratio.


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> They'll probably add a few more screens like WL and maybe Browse By Time/Channel, but I'm betting most of the settings section will remain SD for this initial release.


Duke Nukem Forever! 

I've seen several new WL screens, and they were all HD. I've been informed the settings remain SD. Not a big deal in terms of usability but indicative of TiVo's glacially slow development pace.


----------



## Dan203

Wish Lists, Browse by Time & Browse by Channel are the only non-settings related sections that are still SD. If they get those working then most people wont even notice the SD screens.


----------



## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> Wish Lists, Browse by Time & Browse by Channel are the only non-settings related sections that are still SD. If they get those working then most people wont even notice the SD screens.


What about when browsing a Series 3 or earlier TiVo or a computer?


----------



## bradleys

lpwcomp said:


> What about when browsing a Series 3 or earlier TiVo or a computer?


^^^this^^^


----------



## Dan203

lpwcomp said:


> What about when browsing a Series 3 or earlier TiVo or a computer?


That's a limitation of that devices software. The old S3 units do not support the newer MindRPC APIs required to display an HDUI for those devices. They would require a software update which is never going to happen.

S3 units will start to fade away shortly anyway, so that problem will eventually fix itself.


----------



## innocentfreak

If TiVo ever rolled out an updated TiVo Desktop, I could see it supporting the HD screen when browsing the PC.


----------



## nooneuknow

lpwcomp said:


> What about when browsing a Series 3 or earlier TiVo or a computer?


Yes, definitely something improved about this. While the S3 or HD is limited, and will likely never receive another software update, ever, there's no stopping the Premiere or Series 5 from being able to make it look better (I would think).

So, we've heard that it's not possible due to the S3 or HD... Now tell me how a newer model wouldn't be able to make the "experience" better.

Then there's the whole browsing computer part. There's a place where matters could be changed on both ends of things, right?

Note: innocentfreak posted as I was typing this, so mine came after his.


----------



## rifleman69

lpwcomp said:


> Unless things have changed, you can't even enable it unless the TiVo is connected to an HD TV.


Not true, you can turn it on for whatever tv you want.


----------



## rifleman69

lpwcomp said:


> Nope, doesn't work for me. If I attempt to select it, I am informed that you must have your TV aspect ratio set to either 16:9 or "Smart TV" (the latter option doesn't even seem to exist anymore) and at least one HD output format selected.


So you change your aspect ratio to 16:9, I've done it on a 36 inch CRT tv with a Series 3, a Premiere, and an Elite. HDUI works on a non-HD TV.


----------



## nooneuknow

lpwcomp said:


> Unless things have changed, you can't even enable it unless the TiVo is connected to an HD TV.


The others are correct, in a few ways, from what I just tried. Force the TiVo to 720p (ignore the warnings), then use the composite output. It's 480i no matter what you set anything to. The final viewable aspect ratio is a combo platter of setting it on the TiVo in a way that the TV may be able to adjust with it's own zoom/aspect modes (if applicable).


----------



## lpwcomp

nooneuknow said:


> The others are correct, in a few ways, from what I just tried. Force the TiVo to 720p (ignore the warnings), then use the composite output. It's 480i no matter what you set anything to. The final viewable aspect ratio is a combo platter of setting it on the TiVo in a way that the TV may be able to adjust with it's own zoom/aspect modes (if applicable).


To tell the truth, I don't really need to run the HDUI on that Premiere as I rarely access it directly. I don't believe I've ever actually watched anything on it in its current location. I don't even leave the remote out there. Anything viewed there is with someone else and the THD gets used for that. When I am watching stuff by myself, I do it in my bedroom on the other Premiere, which _*is*_ connected to an HD TV.

In any case, the impetus for this discussion was the possibility of doing away entirely with the SDUI. Still not sure they can do it unless they provide direct support for it on an SD, 4:3 TV.


----------



## ufo4sale

Just curious but with a 4 tuner TiVo and one mini if your recording on 3 Tuners and you have one free and the mini is watching live TV does that mean I can't watch on the 4 tuner TiVo? How would the 4 tuner TiVo know if the anyone is watching on the Mini and how would dynamic tuner make a difference?

Thanks.


----------



## nooneuknow

lpwcomp said:


> In any case, the impetus for this discussion was the possibility of doing away entirely with the SDUI. Still not sure they can do it unless they provide direct support for it on an SD, 4:3 TV.


OIC. The thing that scares me is dying of old age using the HDUI to clear the items I want out of my Recently Deleted folder. I use it like some use the Recycle Bin on their computers. I often put things in there I want to keep, unless I absolutely need the space, or might change my mind about watching something. I've deleted whole series, then when I ran out of things I felt like watching, I dug them out, easily, since I cleared the things I DID already watch, out. Digging them out is much faster with SDUI as well...

Please (to all) let's not start the usual bickering over why anybody cares about the RD folder. All that matters is some users do. It's already been stated that some don't.


----------



## lpwcomp

nooneuknow said:


> OIC. The thing that scares me is dying of old age using the HDUI to clear the items I want out of my Recently Deleted folder. I use it like some use the Recycle Bin on their computers. I often put things in there I want to keep, unless I absolutely need the space, or might change my mind about watching something. I've deleted whole series, then when I ran out of things I felt like watching, I dug them out, easily, since I cleared the things I DID already watch, out. Digging them out is much faster with SDUI as well...
> 
> Please (to all) let's not start the usual bickering over why anybody cares about the RD folder. All that matters is some users do. It's already been stated that some don't.


I use kmttg for that. Easy-peasy.


----------



## b_scott

ufo4sale said:


> Just curious but with a 4 tuner TiVo and one mini if your recording on 3 Tuners and you have one free and the mini is watching live TV does that mean I can't watch on the 4 tuner TiVo? How would the 4 tuner TiVo know if the anyone is watching on the Mini and how would dynamic tuner make a difference?
> 
> Thanks.


I assume the Mini, if not on the home screen, is taking up a tuner. If you want to free it up you probably have to close LiveTV. I would imagine it's a more direct feedback way to do it then how a normal Tivo works.


----------



## aaronwt

nooneuknow said:


> OIC. The thing that scares me is dying of old age using the HDUI to clear the items I want out of my Recently Deleted folder. I use it like some use the Recycle Bin on their computers. I often put things in there I want to keep, unless I absolutely need the space, or might change my mind about watching something...............................


People use the recycle bin in a PC for things they want to keep???

I never heard of that before.

The recycle bin on a PC is trash. I wouldn't put papers I want to keep in a trash can. Why would someone put the digital versions of paper in the digital version of a trash can on a PC?

I don't recall ever running into anyone that did that.


----------



## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> People use the recycle bin in a PC for things they want to keep???
> 
> I never heard of that before.
> 
> The recycle bin on a PC is trash. I wouldn't put papers I want to keep in a trash can. Why would someone put the digital versions of paper in the digital version of a trash can on a PC?
> 
> I don't recall ever running into anyone that did that.


Why do you think it's called "RECYCLE BIN", and not "TRASH CAN", then?

I worked in IS/IT for over 15 years. I used to get yelled at when I'd clear out people's recycle bin on their work computers during maintenance, for the very reason that I used for my analogy. I NEVER said I did it, just OTHER PEOPLE.

I asked for the bickering not to start... Congrats! You win #1 "Just couldn't resist a cloaked effort to start a fight" award. :down:


----------



## Dan203

There is really no reason to do that. TiVo will automatically delete the recording with the oldest expiration date if it needs the space. If you want to preserve something older the. You can just use the Keep Until option and it will move up the expiration date so that the newer recordings, with the older expiration date, are deleted first.

Or better yet just get an eSATA hard drive and double your space then don't worry about it at all.


----------



## Dan203

ufo4sale said:


> Just curious but with a 4 tuner TiVo and one mini if your recording on 3 Tuners and you have one free and the mini is watching live TV does that mean I can't watch on the 4 tuner TiVo? How would the 4 tuner TiVo know if the anyone is watching on the Mini and how would dynamic tuner make a difference?
> 
> Thanks.


No one really knows for sure, but I'm guessing that first off you'll only be able to steal a max of 3 tuners on the 4 tuner unit so there will always be at least one available to the host. If that tuner happens to be recording you can still watch it, but if you attempt to change the channel it'll warn you that the recording will be canceled. I assume any tuners taken by a Mini will simply be unavailable to the host. You wont even be able to select them via the UI or switch to them via the live TV button until they are released by the Mini.

The host TiVo should be able to prompt the Mini user if it needs the tuner for recording. I assume if the user answers no then it will simply cancel the recording. Although it's possible it might ask all Minis, or maybe all Minis in order, depending on how much time it needs to make the decision based on scheduling priorities.


----------



## nooneuknow

Dan203 said:


> There is really no reason to do that. TiVo will automatically delete the recording with the oldest expiration date if it needs the space. If you want to preserve something older the. You can just use the Keep Until option and it will move up the expiration date so that the newer recordings, with the older expiration date, are deleted first.
> 
> Or better yet just get an eSATA hard drive and double your space then don't worry about it at all.


Dan, if you saw the way I use my TiVos, you'd understand. Most, like about 85% or more, of my recordings are set up to keep until I delete, in the SPM. I have my reasons. YMMV, and it all depends on how you use your TiVo. I know you've seen this subject come up in multiple threads, from multiple people. People who like to "manage" their RD folder get pounced on. The reasons for managing it, and making it more of a utility, than an otherwise useless folder, are many. Some just like to keep it empty, and would even like the option to just empty it with one command, just like a computer Recycle Bin (mostly for privacy reasons, like in a shared dwelling, or family setting, where the TiVos are on one account, and allow sharing of content, or even just one TiVo used by many people). TiVo gave us the ability to dig things out of other TiVo's RD folders. I like that. It does make me consider what I leave in those I use, though.

I see the same people doing the pouncing, and it only is proof that they've seen the pros and cons, and just can't help but pounce anyway.

Same people arguing over the same things every chance they get:
RD folder
Standby Mode
Padding recordings
The clip overlapping recordings option
OTA versus Cable & how many tuners each should have
Whether or not OTA is even worth keeping support for
Blanket statements about any, or all, of the above (which are inaccurate)
...and so much more...

One particular user, always inserts themselves into threads about problems, or software updates, always saying they never have any problems, or not whatever one is being discussed. If somebody questions them on it, then it becomes that they may have experienced some problems, but they were minor, and not enough to be a real issue (for them, anyway).

I may not have joined 8 or 12 years ago. But, that doesn't mean I haven't been a long-time TiVo user, and long time forum lurker. I only joined when nobody else was asking a question that I needed an answer for.

I don't have a time machine, I'm already here, so I'll be around until I either abandon TiVo, this forum becomes entirely useless, or I get kicked-out.

So as to not be accused of passive-aggressive thread drifting, I will leave this fire to burn itself out (or will try to, provided I'm not provoked). It won't be long until some other debate takes precedence. Hopefully it will be a useful one...


----------



## Dan203

Whatever, it's your right to use your TiVo however you want. I just wanted to make you're aware of how the recordings are chosen for deletion. The rules TiVo uses for these things aren't always clear to all users.


----------



## SugarBowl

Dan203 said:


> These units wont do analog at all, so you'll need to stick with the 2 tuner Premiere or at least keep one around until you have access to pure digital. I'm in the same boat. My cable company still has about 35 channels that are analog only. Until they at least start to simulcast I'm stuck keeping a 2 tuner Premiere around for recording those stations.


Any chance that the mini will work with a 2 tuner tivo once the dynamic tuner allocation is in place ?


----------



## atmuscarella

nooneuknow said:


> Dan, if you saw the way I use my TiVos, you'd understand. Most, like about 85% or more, of my recordings are set up to keep until I delete, in the SPM. I have my reasons. YMMV, and it all depends on how you use your TiVo. I know you've seen this subject come up in multiple threads, from multiple people. People who like to "manage" their RD folder get pounced on. The reasons for managing it, and making it more of a utility, than an otherwise useless folder, are many. Some just like to keep it empty, and would even like the option to just empty it with one command, just like a computer Recycle Bin (mostly for privacy reasons, like in a shared dwelling, or family setting, where the TiVos are on one account, and allow sharing of content, or even just one TiVo used by many people). TiVo gave us the ability to dig things out of other TiVo's RD folders. I like that. It does make me consider what I leave in those I use, though.
> 
> I see the same people doing the pouncing, and it only is proof that they've seen the pros and cons, and just can't help but pounce anyway.
> 
> Same people arguing over the same things every chance they get:
> RD folder
> Standby Mode
> Padding recordings
> The clip overlapping recordings option
> OTA versus Cable & how many tuners each should have
> Whether or not OTA is even worth keeping support for
> Blanket statements about any, or all, of the above (which are inaccurate)
> ...and so much more...
> 
> One particular user, always inserts themselves into threads about problems, or software updates, always saying they never have any problems, or not whatever one is being discussed. If somebody questions them on it, then it becomes that they may have experienced some problems, but they were minor, and not enough to be a real issue (for them, anyway).
> 
> I may not have joined 8 or 12 years ago. But, that doesn't mean I haven't been a long-time TiVo user, and long time forum lurker. I only joined when nobody else was asking a question that I needed an answer for.
> 
> I don't have a time machine, I'm already here, so I'll be around until I either abandon TiVo, this forum becomes entirely useless, or I get kicked-out.
> 
> So as to not be accused of passive-aggressive thread drifting, I will leave this fire to burn itself out (or will try to, provided I'm not provoked). It won't be long until some other debate takes precedence. Hopefully it will be a useful one...


Sorry but I will have to disagree with you. Most of the things you posted were actually designed to give the user choices. However intentionally using a recycle or trash bin for storage is not the same. It is intentionally using a tool for something it was not design for. Its the same as using a hammer to swat flies. Yes you can kill a fly with a hammer but you might not like results. Intentionally using a recycle bin to store stuff will likely yield the same result.


----------



## jcthorne

SugarBowl said:


> Any chance that the mini will work with a 2 tuner tivo once the dynamic tuner allocation is in place ?


Nope. As soon as the new series 5 units are released, almost all development for the Premier line will stop. If it has not already. Bug fixes only after that point is Tivo's norm.


----------



## jcthorne

nooneuknow said:


> Why do you think it's called "RECYCLE BIN", and not "TRASH CAN", then?
> 
> I worked in IS/IT for over 15 years. I used to get yelled at when I'd clear out people's recycle bin on their work computers during maintenance, for the very reason that I used for my analogy. I NEVER said I did it, just OTHER PEOPLE.
> 
> I asked for the bickering not to start... Congrats! You win #1 "Just couldn't resist a cloaked effort to start a fight" award. :down:


Its called the Recycle Bin because Microsoft got sued by Apple in the early days of windows over the use of the trash can. Apple copyrighted the trash can....somehow seems appropriate.


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> FWIW... it looks like DTA is still on track.


But what will it look like when it launches? A pal of mine sat in on a usability study at TiVo HQ and was bewildered by the various permutations and not impressed with the implementation. Perhaps what ultimately ships will be better implemented and more transparent to the user - obviously this person was knee deep in it as it was the focus of the study... and it actually didn't sound so horrible to me. I just wish when I hit the peanut power button instead of going to the TiVo menu, it went back to exactly wherever I was before I shut things off.


----------



## aaronwt

nooneuknow said:


> Why do you think it's called "RECYCLE BIN", and not "TRASH CAN", then?
> 
> I worked in IS/IT for over 15 years. I used to get yelled at when I'd clear out people's recycle bin on their work computers during maintenance, for the very reason that I used for my analogy. I NEVER said I did it, just OTHER PEOPLE.
> 
> I asked for the bickering not to start... Congrats! You win #1 "Just couldn't resist a cloaked effort to start a fight" award. :down:


I know you never did it yourself I just never ran into in personally over the last couple of decades. My response had nothing to do with the TiVo Recently deleted folder only the recently deleted folder on a PC. And in your response you said not to bicker over the recently deleted folder. Which I did not. You said


> ..Please (to all) let's not start the usual bickering over why anybody cares about the RD folder.


  My response had nothing to do with the RD folder. I never even mentioned the RD folder

I don't care how you use the RD folder. I know people use it different ways. My GF always wants to keep it clear for some reason. Me I rarely touch it.

Where I've worked people think of the recycle bin as trash. Both a real recycle bin and a digital one. People would think that once it's in the recycle bin it's gone. So I would show them all these files that had been accumulating that they thought were deleted. But I cannot recall ever running across anyone who used the recycle bin to save files. Again that has nothing to do with the RD folder on a TiVo.


----------



## Dan203

SugarBowl said:


> Any chance that the mini will work with a 2 tuner tivo once the dynamic tuner allocation is in place ?


Technically it should be possible, but I'm not sure if they'll allow it because all of the marketing, including the box, says it requires a 4 tuner unit.



jcthorne said:


> Nope. As soon as the new series 5 units are released, almost all development for the Premier line will stop. If it has not already. Bug fixes only after that point is Tivo's norm.


That's not true. The Premiere and the new units will actually run the same software. At least for a while. They probably will stop developing for the Premiere units eventually but it wont happen immediately.


----------



## mattack

ggieseke said:


> The current 2.2TB limit per physical drive or partition is something in the OS.


Good, you confirm what I've been trying to say all along. THUS, they will have to change the filesystem (which is part of the OS, at least from the black box perspective), and thus all of the hacking tools will be broken.


----------



## mattack

sbiller said:


> FWIW... it looks like DTA is still on track.


Argh, TLA overlap even within the same field.


----------



## lpwcomp

mattack said:


> Good, you confirm what I've been trying to say all along. THUS, they will have to change the filesystem (which is part of the OS, at least from the black box perspective), and thus all of the hacking tools will be broken.


The OS is linux. It is not the file system.


----------



## sbiller

Zatz tweeted this out earlier...










I'm hearing we could see an updated version of the TiVo desktop later this year that leverages personalized content stored in the Cloud. Initially, sources indicate the ability for a user to store content in the Cloud with access from iOS and Android. This could help further explain the *Roam*io naming.


----------



## bradleys

Cloud is interesting - but what cloud?

Space that you pay TiVo a service fee for or can I use my own server?


----------



## sbiller

bradleys said:


> Cloud is interesting - but what cloud?
> 
> Space that you pay TiVo a service fee for or can I use my own server?


Good question. They could support a consumers own Cloud storage but I'm guessing this might be hosted in TiVo's data center(s). Perhaps they'll provide a certain amount of storage and offer additional storage for a fee.


----------



## rifleman69

nooneuknow said:


> Why do you think it's called "RECYCLE BIN", and not "TRASH CAN", then?


Because it's more environmental. You're essentially recycling hard drive memory to be available for usage by something else, hence recycle bin. Apple still calls it trash fwiw.


----------



## nooneuknow

Dan203 said:


> Whatever, it's your right to use your TiVo however you want. I just wanted to make you're aware of how the recordings are chosen for deletion. The rules TiVo uses for these things aren't always clear to all users.


I didn't mean to offend you, if that's how you felt about what I said. I appreciate your effort to educate me. You were trying to tell me things I already know. But, how could you know I wasn't already aware of what you were telling me, in a good-faith effort? You couldn't have, since you don't know all the details of how I use my TiVos, and why I do things the way I do (and the extent of what I do or don't already know).

So, I apologize, if I came across as harsh. Please, don't hesitate to try and help, if you feel you can. I do welcome it.

The key words in this are "good faith effort", which I wish I would see more of here. Sometimes, good faith efforts are hard to spot in the sea of cheap-shots and criticisms here, or I've had my fill of the latter, and the wrong person gets barked at.

Since I'm already at 2TB on all my TiVos, which came with 320GB/160GB dives, even if an expander would work, I really don't want to run into the problems many encounter when they add the additional point-of-failure, which an expander is. I'm sure you are aware of what happens to any recordings that get placed/spanned onto an external drive, and the external drive, or any of the connection points fail, or lose a good connection...

Once I have my new NAS server built, I'll actually be doing as you suggested, without the issues of an expander, with my NAS server.

When you have folders of programming, in SD, that have 300+ recordings in them, it's just much easier to set the SPM to "keep until I delete", than to manually keep moving the "keep until" date forward.

So, thanks again, and sorry if I offended you.


----------



## scole250

FWIW, I took a survey from Tivo a few months ago that was heavy on stream type questions. At the time I didn't consider the mini or stream important to me. I've since bought a Slingbox so we could watch our Tivo'd shows while on vacation instead of packing a Tivo (yeah, done it). I'm hoping for Slingbox type, none local network restricted, type access.


----------



## bareyb

scole250 said:


> FWIW, I took a survey from Tivo a few months ago that was heavy on stream type questions. At the time I didn't consider the mini or stream important to me. I've since bought a Slingbox so we could watch our Tivo'd shows while on vacation instead of packing a Tivo (yeah, done it). I'm hoping for Slingbox type, none local network restricted, type access.


I would love a Slingbox type feature for TiVo. Somehow I doubt they'll do it. It would be way too popular and make people much too happy.


----------



## innocentfreak

sbiller said:


> Zatz tweeted this out earlier...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm hearing we could see an updated version of the TiVo desktop later this year that leverages personalized content stored in the Cloud. Initially, sources indicate the ability for a user to store content in the Cloud with access from iOS and Android. This could help further explain the *Roam*io naming.


I really hope the new TiVo Desktop is true. While the cloud will be nice unless I can increase the buffer so the content plays like a local recording, streaming will never be a great solution for me. I rewind, fast forward, and trickplay too many shows to have a good streaming experience. It is why I don't use Netflix or Amazon Prime.


----------



## HerronScott

ggieseke said:


> It uses the ancient Apple Partition Map scheme, not MBR. The current 2.2TB limit per physical drive or partition is something in the OS.
> 
> All of the MFS partitions are treated as one big logical drive by the TiVo software, even if they're spread across multiple physical drives. For a stock Premiere that means it's composed of what linux thinks are four separate drives (/dev/sda10 /dev/sda11 /dev/sda12 /dev/sda13).


APM would also appear to be limited to 2TB like MBR for the same reasons (32-bit with 512 byte sectors)?

Scott


----------



## Dan203

I just did a TiVo survey where they asked about some Stream related features. There were questions about various potential features, most relating to platforms and out of home streaming. However one I found interesting was it asked if I'd be interesting in being able to transfer protected shows to my iPad if it meant the show would be deleted fome the source TiVo after the transfer completed. So essentially they would be "moving" rather then "copying" to get around the copy once restriction. That would be a pretty cool feature.

The other cool one mentioned the possibility of a website where you could access your shows rather then having to use a specific app. That would be pretty cool too and should open up streaming to more devices.


----------



## ggieseke

HerronScott said:


> APM would also appear to be limited to 2TB like MBR for the same reasons (32-bit with 512 byte sectors)?


Yup.


----------



## sneagle

My guess is that any cloud based feature would involve fees. While the idea sounds great, I doubt I would pay for it.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> I just did a TiVo survey where they asked about some Stream related features. There were questions about various potential features, most relating to platforms and out of home streaming. However one I found interesting was it asked if I'd be interesting in being able to transfer protected shows to my iPad if it meant the show would be deleted fome the source TiVo after the transfer completed. So essentially they would be "moving" rather then "copying" to get around the copy once restriction. That would be a pretty cool feature.
> 
> The other cool one mentioned the possibility of a website where you could access your shows rather then having to use a specific app. That would be pretty cool too and should open up streaming to more devices.


Both those features sound awesome! It appears that a lot of items are converging that could allow TiVo to leapfrog some of the competition. It will be interesting to see if they are able to execute this transition without a raft of bugs. I'm also curious whether or not they'll mess with the service costs or keep the status quo. I'm also noticing and hearing from sources that TiVo's back-end servers / data center(s) have been having some issues with scalability as they rapidly add cable-partner customers and continue to add retail customers at a rate of about 8,000 per month (my estimate). I expect that the gross subscriber adds we will see in q3 and q4 could be double that number.


----------



## tomhorsley

sneagle said:


> My guess is that any cloud based feature would involve fees. While the idea sounds great, I doubt I would pay for it.


My guess is the cloud based feature would also involve preventing you from skipping commercials and probably have control latency so awful that it would make the HDUI look snappy by comparison.


----------



## moyekj

Dan203 said:


> The other cool one mentioned the possibility of a website where you could access your shows rather then having to use a specific app. That would be pretty cool too and should open up streaming to more devices.


 I already get pretty close to my ISP data limit of 250GB/month (with help of Netflix & Amazon downloads), so any significant addition would put me over the top consistently. I've never actually received a warning for going over even though it's happened a few times, but ISP data limits eventually are going to be a problem forcing one to pay more, especially as transition to IPTV materializes. Also if TiVo solution means uploading your own recorded shows to cloud (transcoded) I wouldn't like that at all.


----------



## wco81

Dan203 said:


> I just did a TiVo survey where they asked about some Stream related features. There were questions about various potential features, most relating to platforms and out of home streaming. However one I found interesting was it asked if I'd be interesting in being able to transfer protected shows to my iPad if it meant the show would be deleted fome the source TiVo after the transfer completed. So essentially they would be "moving" rather then "copying" to get around the copy once restriction. That would be a pretty cool feature.
> 
> The other cool one mentioned the possibility of a website where you could access your shows rather then having to use a specific app. That would be pretty cool too and should open up streaming to more devices.


Moving content would only make sense if you can play it back on the big screen through AirPlay or something similar that lets you stream from the mobile device to the big screen.

But for HBO content, it's moot because HBO Go for iPad supports AirPlay. Showtime Anytime app. does not though.

Which shows are protected other than those from premium channels? Does FX or AMC protect their shows?


----------



## cwoody222

wco81 said:


> Which shows are protected other than those from premium channels? Does FX or AMC protect their shows?


Tme Warner copy protects EVERYTHING except local broadcast channels which effectively cripples features like this.


----------



## Dan203

wco81 said:


> Which shows are protected other than those from premium channels? Does FX or AMC protect their shows?


Depends on yur cable prvider. Some cable providers protect everything except the local channels.

I agree that there would need to be some way to move it back to your TiVo or play it on your TV if a move feature was offered.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> Depends on yur cable prvider. Some cable providers protect everything except the local channels.
> 
> I agree that there would need to be some way to move it back to your TiVo or play it on your TV if a move feature was offered.


Could they circumvent the flags if they delete the video on the source DVR?


----------



## b_scott

cwoody222 said:


> Tme Warner copy protects EVERYTHING except local broadcast channels which effectively cripples features like this.


everything I've read about TW makes them seem like they are terrible. I feel sorry for anyone who has no other option.


----------



## davezatz

b_scott said:


> everything I've read about TW makes them seem like they are terrible. I feel sorry for anyone who has no other option.


When it comes to SDV and copy flags, yeah... but their mobile and Roku (!) apps are notable.


----------



## wco81

Amazon has a sale on current models apparently.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005TI1ILS/ref=pe_211990_31565050_email_1p_0_ti

Clearing inventory ahead of the launch of the new products?


----------



## Dan203

sbiller said:


> Could they circumvent the flags if they delete the video on the source DVR?


"Copy Once" does allow you to move a recording from one device to another provided it does not exist on both devices simultaneously.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> "Copy Once" does allow you to move a recording from one device to another provided it does not exist on both devices simultaneously.


I hope TiVo chooses to exploit that provision.


----------



## moyekj

Dan203 said:


> "Copy Once" does allow you to move a recording from one device to another provided it does not exist on both devices simultaneously.


 If I recall correctly it also means once moved to another device the CCI byte should then be changed to "Copy Never" so it can't be moved again.


----------



## nooneuknow

moyekj said:


> If I recall correctly it also means once moved to another device the CCI byte should then be changed to "Copy Never" so it can't be moved again.


That's my understanding of it as well. Once means once, not just that it can't exist on more than one device at a time. I could be wrong. It does happen...


----------



## morac

moyekj said:


> If I recall correctly it also means once moved to another device the CCI byte should then be changed to "Copy Never" so it can't be moved again.


I'm pretty sure that's not correct as any program tagged "copy never" can only be stored for 90 minutes before being deleted. Also by moving the program, it's not being copied, which is what gets around the whole "copy once" restriction in the first place. Remember the first "copy" in "copy once" is the recording, which is why no other copies are allowed.


----------



## Dan203

Morac is right. "Copy once" means that the original recording is the "copy" and it already can't be copied again. The loophole is that it's not being copied it's being moved. So you're not technically creating another copy, you're simply moving the copy you already have. This is sort of a gray area so while it can technically be done now, CableLabs could choose to clarify the rules and shut this feature down.

Streaming outside the home is another gray area that we may see accepted or shut down, we'll have to wait and see how they respond if the feature is implemented.


----------



## HarperVision

wco81 said:


> Amazon has a sale on current models apparently.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005TI1ILS/ref=pe_211990_31565050_email_1p_0_ti
> 
> Clearing inventory ahead of the launch of the new products?


Best Buy is even cheaper at $248.99 for an XL4.


----------



## moyekj

I used wrong state name. "copy once" is promoted to "copy no more" (CCI=0x01) I believe. I used to have a link to the original 5C copy protection document but no longer.


----------



## CoxInPHX

HarperVision said:


> Best Buy is even cheaper at $248.99 for an XL4.


Where are you seeing that price. an in-store clearance?

Best Buy appears to be out of stock online.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Premiere+High-Definition+Digital+Video+Recorder/3438692.p?


----------



## nooneuknow

Dan203 said:


> Morac is right. "Copy once" means that the original recording is the "copy" and it already can't be copied again. The loophole is that it's not being copied it's being moved. So you're not technically creating another copy, you're simply moving the copy you already have. This is sort of a gray area so while it can technically be done now, CableLabs could choose to clarify the rules and shut this feature down.
> 
> Streaming outside the home is another gray area that we may see accepted or shut down, we'll have to wait and see how they respond if the feature is implemented.


Agreed. It *might be* better for this to be clarified by CableLabs, the FCC, or whoever it is that needs to make it more ironclad, and less subject to interpretation.

While that may shut down some things that are working right now, if it's working due to loose wording, and not what was intended, it *might be* better to clear it up now, and find ways to make it work as intended, or work within a new, clearer/cleaner wording (IMHO).

I also foggily recall something about the recording being the "one copy", being said some time ago, now that it was brought up that way, again.


----------



## Dan203

moyekj said:


> I used wrong state name. "copy once" is promoted to "copy no more" (CCI=0x01) I believe. I used to have a link to the original 5C copy protection document but no longer.


I'm pretty sure that already happens when TiVo makes the original recording. The trick here is that it's not being copied, it's being moved. It's been a while since I read it, but I'm pretty sure there is nothing in the spec that specificly prevents a "copy no more" recording to be moved to another device. As lo as it's not accessible from both devices simultaniously.

If TiVo wanted to completely protect themselves then they could do a bit by bit delete of the original as it was being transfered to the new device. That way they could truly say it was being moved and not copied. But really this all boils down to what cable labs lets them get away with.


----------



## Grakthis

sbiller said:


> Good question. They could support a consumers own Cloud storage but I'm guessing this might be hosted in TiVo's data center(s). Perhaps they'll provide a certain amount of storage and offer additional storage for a fee.


That would at least help justify the high monthly fees we pay.


----------



## HarperVision

CoxInPHX said:


> Where are you seeing that price. an in-store clearance?
> 
> Best Buy appears to be out of stock online.
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Premiere+High-Definition+Digital+Video+Recorder/3438692.p?


When I logged on it showed in store clearance and online shipped.


----------



## aaronwt

At this rate I might need to put up one of my Elites for sale this month. I should be able to temporarily cover some of teh broadcast network recordings from my OTA only Premiere. Or maybe it will just be better to wait until the S5 is released?


----------



## innocentfreak

CoxInPHX said:


> Where are you seeing that price. an in-store clearance?
> 
> Best Buy appears to be out of stock online.
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Premiere+High-Definition+Digital+Video+Recorder/3438692.p?


You can shop their in store clearance.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/TiVo%26%23174%3B+-+Premiere+XL4+High-Definition+Digital+Video+Recorder/3438692.p?id=1218402123343&skuId=3438692&strId=462&strClr=true

If you repleace the strId= with your local store numbers you can see if they have any instock.

Both Brandon and Citrus have them in stock in Tampa.


----------



## atmuscarella

aaronwt said:


> At this rate I might need to put up one of my Elites for sale this month. I should be able to temporarily cover some of teh broadcast network recordings from my OTA only Premiere. Or maybe it will just be better to wait until the S5 is released?


Hard to know where the price of used Premieres is going to go. Depends on how much the Series 5 units end up costing and how fast TiVo clears out old inventory. Once the Premiere inventory is cleared out the used market will be based on the Series 5 costs so maybe it is good they are clearing out know.


----------



## herbman

Dan203 said:


> If TiVo wanted to completely protect themselves then they could do a bit by bit delete of the original as it was being transfered to the new device. That way they could truly say it was being moved and not copied. But really this all boils down to what cable labs lets them get away with.


As programmers we think like that, but "Accessible" is very easy for TiVo to just drape an access layer over. Then it's immediately inaccessible, they do the proper "move" pattern (crc, copy, check crc on dest, delete local) and if any of that fails just show an error and make it visible again.

Safer.


----------



## astrohip

We've drifted a long way from discussing the actual next-gen product. Nonetheless... a cloud solution is a no-go for many of us. It's one thing to access Netflix, it's another to actually have your DVR data in the cloud. Not only does this dramatically add to your bandwidth usage, you lose the instantaneous response of a local DVR. I have -zero- interest in cloud storage for my day-to-day DVR usage.


----------



## aaronwt

astrohip said:


> We've drifted a long way from discussing the actual next-gen product. Nonetheless... a cloud solution is a no-go for many of us. It's one thing to access Netflix, it's another to actually have your DVR data in the cloud. Not only does this dramatically add to your bandwidth usage, you lose the instantaneous response of a local DVR. I have -zero- interest in cloud storage for my day-to-day DVR usage.


I would't mind having that option so that you could choose which recordings or SPs would use cloud storage. So for someone with no bandwidth caps I could see that as a possible option to keeps costs down. Then you get a TiVo with a smaller hard drive for a lower cost and store some of your recordings in the cloud. Of course it would also depend on what they want to charge for cloud storage and if there is some kind of limit on how long the recordings can be stored.

It can certainly be done since BoxeeTV had cloud storage in their beta. But they also converted the recrodings to a lower quality and also lowered the audio quality to stereo. But it did work.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> At this rate I might need to put up one of my Elites for sale this month. I should be able to temporarily cover some of teh broadcast network recordings from my OTA only Premiere. Or maybe it will just be better to wait until the S5 is released?


I wouldn't sell anything just yet. We don't have an official release date yet and TiVo has a history of missing deadlines. What if it slips to next year then you're stuck without a TiVo for 3-4 months or forced to rebuy the one you just sold.


----------



## csell

This whole "copy" / "copy once" flag is intriguing to me as its something I have discussed many times and is currently stopping me from upgrading my TivoHD to a 4 tuner Tivo. Basically 90% of my shows are copyrighted, many of which I have either not watched yet or don't want to lose. And since I can't transfer them to a new one that i buy, I have basically not spent the money on a new one. If they can do what has been described in some of the previous post in this thread, I would upgrade - no doubt. I have compared it to buying apps on your cell phone. You spent a lot of money and time building up your library of apps and if you would not be allowed to transfer them to a new one, you probably would not upgrade too often. But luckily that industry has no problem with you transferring to newly purchased phones or tablets.


----------



## Dan203

If they ever add that feature It's unlikely to make it's way back to the S3 units. The S3 units are unlikely to ever see another update with actual features. (there is a minor update rolling out now to fix the TTG cookie issue)


----------



## bdraw

Dan203 said:


> Morac is right. "Copy once" means that the original recording is the "copy" and it already can't be copied again. The loophole is that it's not being copied it's being moved. So you're not technically creating another copy, you're simply moving the copy you already have. This is sort of a gray area so while it can technically be done now, CableLabs could choose to clarify the rules and shut this feature down.
> 
> Streaming outside the home is another gray area that we may see accepted or shut down, we'll have to wait and see how they respond if the feature is implemented.


I don't think it is gray at all. The first recording is the first copy, if there is no restriction on streaming, then you can stream. These aren't loop holes or gray areas, it's like any other legal issue and up to a little interpretation, but most of it is a result of negotiations. If the content holders don't like what is being done with their content, they'll make it be known and follow up legally, if required.

The FCC's part is simply stepping in when a law, that they are in the position to enforce, is in question. They give each side the opportunity to submit comments and then they release an order. The Plug And Play order was the order where restrictions were placed on how these flags can be used, see page 30.

http://w2.eff.org/IP/pnp/FCC_PnP_Ruling.pdf


----------



## Dan203

By "gray area" I meant there is no clear cut rule defining these specific usage scenarios. Streaming seems to have been accepted by the industry, but moving recordings to another device is still something new, so it's not clear yet how they're going to react to that one.


----------



## bdraw

Yes, streaming rights are in a gray area. Basically TiVo pushes the limits, TiVoToGo wasn't exactly popular with the content co's when it came out either. I meant the copying rules weren't gray. I've always been a proponent of updating the definitions to reflect the current ecosystems and other DRM systems. So if I record a copy of a show with my TiVo, it should have the same flexibility as if I were to download it from iTunes or Google Play.


----------



## Dan203

I think that's what TiVo is trying to accomplish. At least as best they can while conforming to the current rules. If they add a "move" feature then I think they will have done everything possible within the current rules. If they want a true iTunes type DRM scheme then the rule would need to be changed, and I just don't see that happening.


----------



## mattack

Dan203 said:


> "Copy Once" does allow you to move a recording from one device to another provided it does not exist on both devices simultaneously.


Though I'm obviously a huge TiVo fan, I'd be wary of being one of the early adopters of this.

I've definitely been bitten by my Toshiba XS32 corrupting a DVD-RAM *while* it moved over a copy once program. So along with losing everything already on the DVD-RAM, I lost the program I was copying, because it didn't do a verification before the delete of the original...

and with the weird bugs I run into with the existing Tivo iPad app (jumps back to the beginning/last save point of the show you're watching when a download finishes), I'm paranoid that losing the WiFi connection at *just* the right point would cause you to lose the program entirely...


----------



## slowbiscuit

astrohip said:


> We've drifted a long way from discussing the actual next-gen product. Nonetheless... a cloud solution is a no-go for many of us. It's one thing to access Netflix, it's another to actually have your DVR data in the cloud. Not only does this dramatically add to your bandwidth usage, you lose the instantaneous response of a local DVR. I have -zero- interest in cloud storage for my day-to-day DVR usage.


Not to mention that Comcast is expanding their trial of the new 300GB data cap, so that alone would mean Tivo cloud is not an option for me if that cap gets reinstated.

This is a much bigger issue of course, but Tivo would have to take it into account when the caps come back (and they will).


----------



## aaronwt

slowbiscuit said:


> Not to mention that Comcast is expanding their trial of the new 300GB data cap, so that alone would mean Tivo cloud is not an option for me if that cap gets reinstated.
> 
> This is a much bigger issue of course, but Tivo would have to take it into account when the caps come back (and they will).


 A data cap is another reason why if they do have cloud storage they need to allow the user to be able to select which recordings/SPs will be stored in the cloud and which ones they will locally.


----------



## atmuscarella

For in home use I would want local storage. 

The one thing I can see Cloud storage being good for is outside your home streaming to tablets/phones. The uploads would be the compressed like what comes out of the "Stream" now and then would be accessible for streaming anywhere.

In any event cloud storage is not possible for me as my DSL upload speeds (.4 Mb/sec on a good day) would make it unusable.


----------



## lessd

atmuscarella said:


> For in home use I would want local storage.
> 
> The one thing I can see Cloud storage being good for is outside your home streaming to tablets/phones. The uploads would be the compressed like what comes out of the "Stream" now and then would be accessible for streaming anywhere.
> 
> In any event cloud storage is not possible for me as my DSL upload speeds (.4 Mb/sec on a good day) would make it unusable.


IMHO if any Cloud recording takes place by any big service provider (TiVo included) it would by program not directly from your home uploaded to the Cloud, so download speed would be the only problem, this would be like IPTV.


----------



## KevinG

Whose to say that this cloud storage feature (assuming it exists) isn't more like what CableVision on Long Island was talking about? Or something like what Dish does?

Tivo records everything once. In the cloud, on their servers. Then, if you want to watch it from anywhere outside your home, they can see if it happens to also be on one of your Tivos. If it is, you can stream their copy to where ever you are. No "upload" capacity was used by you, since you didn't send your copy to the cloud...Tivo already had it.


----------



## KevinG

Hah, lessd and I had the same thought at the same time, it would seem.


----------



## Aero 1

KevinG said:


> Tivo records everything once. In the cloud, on their servers. Then, if you want to watch it from anywhere outside your home, they can see if it happens to also be on one of your Tivos. If it is, you can stream their copy to where ever you are. No "upload" capacity was used by you, since you didn't send your copy to the cloud...Tivo already had it.


thats illegal. you cant record anything once and redistribute multiple times to multiple people.


----------



## KevinG

Aero 1 said:


> thats illegal. you cant record anything once and redistribute multiple times to multiple people.


Wrong. CableVision won this battle in court. Google "CableVision DVR".

Here: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...mote-dvr-stays-legal-supremes-wont-hear-case/


----------



## atmuscarella

lessd said:


> IMHO if any Cloud recording takes place by any big service provider (TiVo included) it would by program not directly from your home uploaded to the Cloud, so download speed would be the only problem, this would be like IPTV.


If it were allowed that would be fine for cable channels but I find it unlikely that anyone but a cable/satellite company is going to have access to all the local channels in the country and your local ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS etc. channel will fight to death any effort to record from a national feed for prime time shows.


----------



## Aero 1

KevinG said:


> Wrong. CableVision won this battle in court. Google "CableVision DVR".


no, you're wrong. you said tivo should record "once" and stream it anywhere. Cablevision doesnt do that. CV records only one copy to the user that requested it. if you and i want to record Friends at 7 pm today, CV records it twice. They dont record it one time and send it to both of us, thats is illegal. Thats how they won the court battle because they are not redistributing, they are simply recording for the user that requested it, go back and read it.


----------



## sneagle

Cloud distribution would remove local ads.


----------



## lpwcomp

KevinG said:


> Whose to say that this cloud storage feature (assuming it exists) isn't more like what CableVision on Long Island was talking about? Or something like what Dish does?
> 
> Tivo records everything once. In the cloud, on their servers. Then, if you want to watch it from anywhere outside your home, they can see if it happens to also be on one of your Tivos. If it is, you can stream their copy to where ever you are. No "upload" capacity was used by you, since you didn't send your copy to the cloud...Tivo already had it.





KevinG said:


> Wrong. CableVision won this battle in court. Google "CableVision DVR".
> 
> Here: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...mote-dvr-stays-legal-supremes-wont-hear-case/


Did you actually read the article? Not even remotely the same.

Edit: I see I was beaten to the punch.


----------



## KevinG

Aero 1 said:


> no, your wrong. you said tivo should record "once" and stream it anywhere. Cablevision doesnt do that. CV records only one copy to the user that requested it. if you and i want to record Friends at 7 pm today, CV records it twice. They dont record it one time and send it to both of us, thats is illegal. Thats how they won the court battle because they are not redistributing, they are simply recording for the user that requested it, go back and read it.


Yes, I understand the difference now. However, I don't think it's a huge stretch of the imagination to believe that CableVision could (if they aren't already) argue that they have algorithms which very carefully remove duplicate bits of data across their farm of hard drives. Why bother keeping the identical bits multiple times? Then, of course, it's just a matter of a database to keep track of who told them to record it. They could prove that they aren't infringing if there happens to be one program which no one requested, and, in fact, it wasn't available on their system.

Anyway, this point is moot. All I was saying was that TiVo's "cloud" storage might not involve *any* of your "upstream" bandwidth. They can just add it to the cloud on your behalf when you set up your recording.

By the way...How is Dish getting away with this then? (nevermind, I see that "PrimeTime Anytime" actually gets stored on your own local hard drive. I thought it was "in the cloud." )


----------



## Aero 1

KevinG said:


> Yes, I understand the difference now. However, I don't think it's a huge stretch of the imagination to believe that CableVision could (if they aren't already) argue that they have algorithms which very carefully remove duplicate bits of data across their farm of hard drives. Why bother keeping the identical bits multiple times? Then, of course, it's just a matter of a database to keep track of who told them to record it. They could prove that they aren't infringing if there happens to be one program which no one requested, and, in fact, it wasn't available on their system.


If you read the whole case, you will see that the court went through their algorithms and technology to see if it infringed on redistribution rights. the court said, since CV doesn't duplicate or "manage" the recordings and only perform 1 to 1 copies of the requested program and have multiple copies of said program, they are not redistributing. they are simply moving the box under your tv to their colo.



KevinG said:


> Anyway, this point is moot. All I was saying was that TiVo's "cloud" storage might not involve *any* of your "upstream" bandwidth. They can just add it to the cloud on your behalf when you set up your recording.


then they would copy exactly what CV is doing and that would mean that their new hardware wouldnt need any physical tuners in the box. A tunerless Tivo.

if this cloud rumor is true, then they would go the Boxee TV route. record and upload your recordings.


----------



## BobCamp1

lessd said:


> IMHO if any Cloud recording takes place by any big service provider (TiVo included) it would by program not directly from your home uploaded to the Cloud, so download speed would be the only problem, this would be like IPTV.


More like VOD. I realize that most Tivo users aren't aware of this, but if you use the cable provider's box, you can get a stream of your favorite shows and movies anytime you want! 

Now, some cable providers don't have a large VOD selection, so not every program is there for viewing. Sports events certainly aren't (but sometimes they're on ESPN3). And some people have a slow Internet connection so they can't take advantage of it. But it's amazing how many of my shows are on VOD (at least with FIOS, anyway). And you can FF through the commercials on most of them, and some have even edited out most of the commercials.

I don't bother to record certain series anymore, as I know they'll be available on VOD within 48 hours of the original air date and I know I won't get around to watching them until then anyway. I've found my family only needs around 300 GB of hard drive space on the DVR.


----------



## bradleys

atmuscarella said:


> For in home use I would want local storage.
> 
> The one thing I can see Cloud storage being good for is outside your home streaming to tablets/phones. The uploads would be the compressed like what comes out of the "Stream" now and then would be accessible for streaming anywhere.
> 
> In any event cloud storage is not possible for me as my DSL upload speeds (.4 Mb/sec on a good day) would make it unusable.


I like this idea... Today the iPad app allows you to move a copy to the iPad. Another option to move the stream into the cloud would be pretty cool. You could access it from your mobile device or laptop using the "New" TiVo desktop.

If I can use my own personal cloud, all the better - but I doubt it will be allowed.


----------



## aaronwt

BobCamp1 said:


> More like VOD. I realize that most Tivo users aren't aware of this, but if you use the cable provider's box, you can get a stream of your favorite shows and movies anytime you want!
> 
> Now, some cable providers don't have a large VOD selection, so not every program is there for viewing. Sports events certainly aren't (but sometimes they're on ESPN3). And some people have a slow Internet connection so they can't take advantage of it. But it's amazing how many of my shows are on VOD (at least with FIOS, anyway). And you can FF through the commercials on most of them, and some have even edited out most of the commercials.
> 
> I don't bother to record certain series anymore, as I know they'll be available on VOD within 48 hours of the original air date and I know I won't get around to watching them until then anyway. I've found my family only needs around 300 GB of hard drive space on the DVR.


Bt many of the VOD shows have borked audio. At least with FiOS and Comcast. Stereo audio instead of 5.1


----------



## lessd

BobCamp1 said:


> More like VOD. I realize that most Tivo users aren't aware of this, but if you use the cable provider's box, you can get a stream of your favorite shows and movies anytime you want!
> 
> Now, some cable providers don't have a large VOD selection, so not every program is there for viewing. Sports events certainly aren't (but sometimes they're on ESPN3). And some people have a slow Internet connection so they can't take advantage of it. But it's amazing how many of my shows are on VOD (at least with FIOS, anyway). And you can FF through the commercials on most of them, and some have even edited out most of the commercials.
> 
> I don't bother to record certain series anymore, as I know they'll be available on VOD within 48 hours of the original air date and I know I won't get around to watching them until then anyway. I've found my family only needs around 300 GB of hard drive space on the DVR.


I have VOD on my TiVo Comcast system, when you ask for a program the cable card goes to a channel to get the program you want, if you have a two tuner TiVo and are recording on both tuners you can't get VOD without stopping the record on one station, On HBO type VOD programs you can fast forward if needed but I can't fast forward on any Fox or ABC network program so I would be forces to watch the ads, when the Zimmerman verdict came down it was before end of some ABC program I had recorded, I had to start the VOD for that program and do something else for 50 minutes until the part I missed came on, I was pi*** about that inconvenience of VOD. Same thing happened on the Obama announcement of Osama bin laden death at 10:45pm, I could have waited until 11pm to know about his death.


----------



## davezatz

KevinG said:


> Whose to say that this cloud storage feature (assuming it exists) isn't more like what CableVision on Long Island was talking about? Or something like what Dish does?


The feature that was presented to me was _personal_ media. Don't think we're talking network DVR here...


----------



## innocentfreak

davezatz said:


> The feature that was presented to me was _personal_ media. Don't think we're talking network DVR here...


Was there any mention of additional codec support though?


----------



## jadziedzic

lessd said:


> I have VOD on my TiVo Comcast system, when you ask for a program the cable card goes to a channel to get the program you want.


The CableCARD has nothing to do with VOD tuning. The request for a VOD program is routed from the TiVo to Comcast's head-end over the TiVo's Internet connection, and in reply the TiVo is told which channel to tune to receive the requested program.


----------



## shortys408

I hope they improve the on demand menus for comcast. I have trouble navigating it.


----------



## mattack

KevinG said:


> Why bother keeping the identical bits multiple times?


Because, them's [sic] the rules. The data is being segregated per user, so those recordings are for that one user.

If you only keep one copy, then you are CLEARLY (legally) making duplicate copies, breaking copyright laws.


----------



## lessd

jadziedzic said:


> The CableCARD has nothing to do with VOD tuning. The request for a VOD program is routed from the TiVo to Comcast's head-end over the TiVo's Internet connection, and in reply the TiVo is told which channel to tune to receive the requested program.


The cable card is what encodes and maps the tuner signal, you can't have cable VOD without a cable card on Comcast in CT.


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## HerronScott

mattack said:


> Because, them's [sic] the rules. The data is being segregated per user, so those recordings are for that one user.
> 
> If you only keep one copy, then you are CLEARLY (legally) making duplicate copies, breaking copyright laws.


I would guess that they probably are using block-level deduplication at the hardware level (ie the SAN this data is being stored on) to reduce disk space utilization. At the logical or file level (application), this is still seen as multiple copies, but duplicate blocks are only stored once.

Scott


----------



## lpwcomp

HerronScott said:


> I would guess that they probably are using block-level deduplication at the hardware level (ie the SAN this data is being stored on) to reduce disk space utilization. At the logical or file level (application), this is still seen as multiple copies, but duplicate blocks are only stored once.
> 
> Scott


I doubt it since "Cablevision's position was that the system was *identical* to those that had legally been deployed for years by consumers; it just shifted the location of the hardware into the cloud. "


----------



## KevinG

After reading through it, I'm with lpwcomp. As much as it makes complete and absolute sense to those of us who understand that bits are bits, and it doesn't make a damn bit (hah!) of difference if you have 1 copy of them or n copies of them...the legalities make this impossible. In my opinion, the copyright laws just haven't caught up to technology.

Imagine the $$$ savings in terms of hardware costs, cooling, real-estate (rack space), maintenance, etc. that CableVision could incur by keeping at most 3 copies of any show that someone had requested to be recorded... All without ever delivering said show to anyone that didn't ask for it to be recorded in the first place. Oh well.


----------



## lpwcomp

The written word equivalent would be for Amazon to keep only one copy of any eBook that has been uploaded to anyone's Kindle account.


----------



## socrplyr

lpwcomp said:


> The written word equivalent would be for Amazon to keep only one copy of any eBook that has been uploaded to anyone's Kindle account.


Amazon is probably allowed to keep only one copy and distribute it to anyone who purchases.
I think many here are getting confused with what is law and what isn't here.
It is not law that Cablevision must keep one copy for each person who records it. It is law that they must follow copyright laws. Those basically allow the copyright holder to restrict distribution of the material. What happened for Cablevision is they showed that by making their equipment act just like a household DVR (one copy per request), they were able to not be considered to be distributing (or rebroadcasting) the stored program. However, if Cablevision were to get permission from all the copyright holders, they could keep only one copy and send it out when requested (that is basically what VOD is). My point is that the arbitrary nature of this is not directly rooted in law. Courts have found that individuals have a fair use right to record programming (use a DVR). Here for Cablevision, they said that moving the recording to be at Cablevison's premisses is equivalent to using a household DVR. However, there has not been a case that directly took up the ability for Cablevision to keep only one copy. Cablevision felt that they had a reasonable chance of losing that argument, because it looks a lot more like existing VOD. Thus, they went with the surefire win. Going forward, if they copyright holders allowed them explicitly to do so, I am sure they would switch and only save a single requested copy.


----------



## lpwcomp

socrplyr said:


> Amazon is probably allowed to keep only one copy and distribute it to anyone who purchases.


I'm not talking about eBooks that you load onto your Kindle or a device with a Kindle app, I am talking about eBooks that have been added to your Amazon Kindle account, including things you acquired elsewhere (like Baen). Even if you buy it ffrom Amazon, they are distributing it, i.e. giving you your own copy, not just providing access to their copy.


----------



## jadziedzic

lessd said:


> The cable card is what encodes and maps the tuner signal, you can't have cable VOD without a cable card on Comcast in CT.


No channel mapping is required for VoD - the server at the head-end returns a QAM channel number (e.g., 76-4), *not* a typical STB channel number.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> I would't mind having that option so that you could choose which recordings or SPs would use cloud storage. So for someone with no bandwidth caps I could see that as a possible option to keeps costs down. Then you get a TiVo with a smaller hard drive for a lower cost and store some of your recordings in the cloud. Of course it would also depend on what they want to charge for cloud storage and if there is some kind of limit on how long the recordings can be stored.
> 
> It can certainly be done since BoxeeTV had cloud storage in their beta. But they also converted the recrodings to a lower quality and also lowered the audio quality to stereo. But it did work.


The bandwidth consumption would be out of control for little functionality. Even if I had FIOS, I wouldn't want 500GB/mo+ of data being uploaded for some "cloud" DVR functionality. Talk about ridiculous.

If anything, Sling-like functionality would make sense, as then it's only using bandwidth when it needs to. Or even an on-demand MRV-type solution with near-real-time H.264 re-encoding.


----------



## HarperVision

HerronScott said:


> I would guess that they probably are using block-level deduplication at the hardware level (ie the SAN this data is being stored on) to reduce disk space utilization. At the logical or file level (application), this is still seen as multiple copies, but duplicate blocks are only stored once.
> 
> Scott


They've already had this discussion over at DBSForum and your theory appears to be the correct one from what I recall of the banter back and forth.


----------



## innocentfreak

Bigg said:


> The bandwidth consumption would be out of control for little functionality. Even if I had FIOS, I wouldn't want 500GB/mo+ of data being uploaded for some "cloud" DVR functionality. Talk about ridiculous.
> 
> If anything, Sling-like functionality would make sense, as then it's only using bandwidth when it needs to. Or even an on-demand MRV-type solution with near-real-time H.264 re-encoding.


I wouldn't complain. 500GB up is nothing on FiOS. Of course one other thought, even though Dave said this was about personal media, who says it would be full size recordings. If the rumors are true and the new TiVo has transcoding built in it would just upload the smaller file formats which IIRC run about 1GB per hour at best quality. 500GB would then be 500 hours which is more than the TiVo can hold. This would be three and a half days of recording on all 6 tuners without a single open timeslot.

They could also do it similar to how you can setup KMTTG. It only uploads shows that are at risk of being deleted for space.

Of course as Dave said this is more about personal media in the cloud and not about TiVo recordings.


----------



## wco81

So have the new products gone through FCC or it's not known, what was discovered was that an application for certification was with the FCC?


----------



## sbiller

wco81 said:


> So have the new products gone through FCC or it's not known, what was discovered was that an application for certification was with the FCC?


http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/07/tivo-series-5-roamio-pro-and-roamio-plus-dvrs-pop-up-in-fcc/


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## lpwcomp

HarperVision said:


> They've already had this discussion over at DBSForum and your theory appears to be the correct one from what I recall of the banter back and forth.


Can you post a link to the discussion? I'd be interested to see if they actually _*know*_ any more than we do here. When I google "dbsforum", for the most part all I see is information that it died years ago. Well, that dbsforum*s* died. There doesn't seem to be anything about "dbsforum".

The one brief discussion I found on another forum mentioned the de-duping technology but another poster stated that Cablevision was not using it and that they were indeed making separate copies for each user.

If they were using de-duping, what would be the reasoning behind the storage limits that they have?


----------



## socrplyr

lpwcomp said:


> I'm not talking about eBooks that you load onto your Kindle or a device with a Kindle app, I am talking about eBooks that have been added to your Amazon Kindle account, including things you acquired elsewhere (like Baen). Even if you buy it ffrom Amazon, they are distributing it, i.e. giving you your own copy, not just providing access to their copy.


Gotcha. I missed that you were referring specifically to the cloud storage service, not the product sales.


----------



## HarperVision

lpwcomp said:


> Can you post a link to the discussion? I'd be interested to see if they actually know any more than we do here. When I google "dbsforum", for the most part all I see is information that it died years ago. Well, that dbsforums died. There doesn't seem to be anything about "dbsforum".
> 
> The one brief discussion I found on another forum mentioned the de-duping technology but another poster stated that Cablevision was not using it and that they were indeed making separate copies for each user.
> 
> If they were using de-duping, what would be the reasoning behind the storage limits that they have?


Sorry made a mistake, it's DBSTalk forum where I read something. Don't have time to find exact link as I'm heading to work, but it was recent within past couple months. I remember reading it in passing but not really caring about the topic as it was mixed in with a different one. If I get time I'll try to find something.


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## lpwcomp

HarperVision said:


> Sorry made a mistake, it's DBSTalk forum where I read something. Don't have time to find exact link as I'm heading to work, but it was recent within past couple months. I remember reading it in passing but not really caring about the topic as it was mixed in with a different one. If I get time I'll try to find something.


If it is this thread, it proves nothing one way or another. It is just as much speculation as we have here. If recordings are only _*logically*_ unique, it would have come out during the discovery process, we would probably know about it and Cablevision would have had a much tougher time defending it.

To get this back to the subject of this thread, I for one have absolutely no desire for a purely cloud based DVR.


----------



## nooneuknow

lpwcomp said:


> To get this back to the subject of this thread, I for one have absolutely no desire for a purely cloud based DVR.


Same here! :up:


----------



## bradleys

I would only be interested in a cloud based solution that focused on providing remote access to content. Either via a mobile device app or laptop using an updated TiVo desktop.

I can imagine a scenario where you remotely initiate the transfer of a movie from your library to the cloud and (after enough has transferred) begin watching that movie on your remote device. Much more stable then the sling media solution... That is a use case that would generate some excitement!

For home use, locally stored content is going to be a much better user experience. 

I also don't want post processing DRM to be applied to content I own - a concern that I have anytime someone else has access to your private library.


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## davezatz

I visited one of my local Best Buys yesterday and the TiVo display is cleared out of DVRs. I suggest a few recon missions this weekend to your local outposts and interviewing the BBY personnel. Could be soon... 

Model numbers we're looking for:
TCD846500
TCD848000
TCD840300


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## aaronwt

That sounds good. The quicker the S4 models get sold the better. I need to wait until they are all gone before I sell my ELites. SO I guess I'll end up waiting to sell them until a few weeks after the S5 models have appeared.


----------



## innocentfreak

davezatz said:


> I visited one of my local Best Buys yesterday and the TiVo display is cleared out of DVRs. I suggest a few recon missions this weekend to your local outposts and interviewing the BBY personnel. Could be soon...
> 
> Model numbers we're looking for:
> TCD846500
> TCD848000
> TCD840300


Already tried. The one was of little use here. They weren't a Magnolia store though. They still have the Premiere on the shelf for sale at $99. Of course this is also the store that has never had the display work. I asked the guy and all he did was look up bestbuy.com which of course didn't show it.

I did call a Magnolia store, but didn't get anything new. He showed some on order, but no release and I didn't press for a model number. I threw out the $299 price which he hesitantly agreed almost like he realized he probably shouldn't give this out.


----------



## Aero 1

davezatz said:


> I visited one of my local Best Buys yesterday and the TiVo display is cleared out of DVRs. I suggest a few recon missions this weekend to your local outposts and interviewing the BBY personnel. Could be soon...
> 
> Model numbers we're looking for:
> TCD846500
> TCD848000
> TCD840300


do you have reason to believe that the launch is eminent? they are not going to do a press conference in front of a podium and a barely visible projector screen like the premiere launch?


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## sbiller

Aero 1 said:


> do you have reason to believe that the launch is eminent? they are not going to do a press conference in front of a podium and a barely visible projector screen like the premiere launch?


I suspect that we will see a soft launch in the coming days with multiple reviews from various news outlets including The Verge, Engadget, Cnet, ... followed by a significant advertising campaign prior to the launch of the Fall TV Season and the NFL Football season. It will take some time for the shelves and warehouses at Best Buy and Amazon to have sufficient inventory on stock.


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## csell

I would have to imagine their goal is to get it out there in the next week or so. I could not imagine a worse to to release their new line of Tivos AFTER the new fall season starts. You want people to buy them and get them all set up BEFORE the new fall season starts. Once it starts and people start recording all of their new shows, it becomes a lot more complex to simply go out and upgrade. I assume they realize this.


----------



## aaronwt

csell said:


> I would have to imagine their goal is to get it out there in the next week or so. I could not imagine a worse to to release their new line of Tivos AFTER the new fall season starts. You want people to buy them and get them all set up BEFORE the new fall season starts. Once it starts and people start recording all of their new shows, it becomes a lot more complex to simply go out and upgrade. I assume they realize this.


It makes it easier to upgrade after the season has started. If starting form scratch, all the shows are on the schedule so you can find them in the guide to setup the Season Passes.

If you are upgrading then it's just a matter of using the online Season Pass manager which works great. I used it when I upgraded to my Elites without any issue. But since it was during the normal Tv season it was much easier than if it had been during Summer when most of the shows woudl not have been scheduled yet. It's easier to see if there will be any issues when the shows are being broadcast.

Plus when upgrading to a new model, I typically run the boxes concurrently for a few weeks.

I'm not even sure I've had a new TiVo released before the Tv season started. Excpet maybe the TiVoHD. I remember the DirecTV HDTiVo being launched in late May/early June after the season had ended and I remember I had wished it had launched during the TV season so I could have used it more.


----------



## sbiller

aaronwt said:


> It makes it easier to upgrade after the season has started. If starting form scratch, all the shows are on the schedule so you can find them in the guide to setup the Season Passes.
> 
> If you are upgrading then it's just a matter of using the online Season Pass manager which works great. I used it when I upgraded to my Elites without any issue. But since it was during the normal Tv season it was much easier than if it had been during Summer when most of the shows woudl not have been scheduled yet. It's easier to see if there will be any issues when the shows are being broadcast.
> 
> Plus when upgrading to a new model, I typically run the boxes concurrently for a few weeks.


Keep in mind that they are targeting this to new users as well as upgraders. Would love to see them offer some sort of incentive for current Premiere users to upgrade better than the MSD.


----------



## aaronwt

sbiller said:


> Keep in mind that they are targeting this to new users as well as upgraders. Would love to see them offer some sort of incentive for current Premiere users to upgrade better than the MSD.


I would love it too. But if these low prices that are predicted are true, then I can't see them dropping more money off the lifetime service. But I guess you never know. I just know that if they do offer a deal, it will probably happen after I've already picked up my S5. I do hope they don't have a soft launch though. I hate those since you never know what stores will have the TiVos.


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## innocentfreak

I would definitely find it easier before the new fall season. I am already dreading the thought of offloading the content from my Elite. 

Before the new fall season I can start completely fresh without having to worry about transferring recordings of new shows, while also setting up season passes.


----------



## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> I would love it too. But if these low prices that are predicted are true, then I can't see them dropping more money off the lifetime service. But I guess you never know. I just know that if they do offer a deal, it will probably happen after I've already picked up my S5. I do hope they don't have a soft launch though. I hate those since you never know what stores will have the TiVos.


Hopefully it is like the Elite and they offer a upgrade offer for discounted lifetime so we can still buy at Best Buy.

The Elite was somewhat of a soft launch. We didn't see it advertised in the Best Buy flyers till about 3 weeks after it was available.


----------



## atmuscarella

zalta198000 said:


> Any chance that the mini will work with a 2 tuner tivo once the dynamic tuner allocation is in place ?


First what do you mean by "work with a 2 tuner TiVo"?

If you mean not require a 4 or 6 tuner TiVo for setup and be able to be setup and work fully with a 2 tuner Premiere - there is a chance but I think it is slim.

If you mean work in anyway with a Series 3 or Series 2 two tuner TiVo - never going to happen.

If you mean be able to stream from a 2 tuner Premiere after being setup with a 4 or 6 tuner TiVo DVR - it can do that now.


----------



## csell

aaronwt said:


> It makes it easier to upgrade after the season has started. If starting form scratch, all the shows are on the schedule so you can find them in the guide to setup the Season Passes.
> 
> If you are upgrading then it's just a matter of using the online Season Pass manager which works great. I used it when I upgraded to my Elites without any issue. But since it was during the normal Tv season it was much easier than if it had been during Summer when most of the shows woudl not have been scheduled yet. It's easier to see if there will be any issues when the shows are being broadcast.
> 
> Plus when upgrading to a new model, I typically run the boxes concurrently for a few weeks.
> 
> I'm not even sure I've had a new TiVo released before the Tv season started. Excpet maybe the TiVoHD. I remember the DirecTV HDTiVo being launched in late May/early June after the season had ended and I remember I had wished it had launched during the TV season so I could have used it more.


I was thinking more in terms of the shows you have recorded. I'll have new shows being recorded each night once the fall season begins. It takes me a while to watch them all. That is not an ideal time to upgrade the Tivo. You can try and catch up on all of your shows before getting the new one, but as you do that, new shows are being record. Very difficult to get completely caught up.... You can say just transfer them to the new Tivo. But not everyone can transfer shows with because of copyright issues or just not that tech swavy. If it gets released mid-fall season, that might be enough reason to wait. Maybe wait until XMas time when shows go to re-runs for a while.


----------



## davezatz

Aero 1 said:


> do you have reason to believe that the launch is eminent? they are not going to do a press conference in front of a podium and a barely visible projector screen like the premiere launch?


Nothing concrete, but suspicions. And I could envision a scenario where an announcement precedes availability (as they did with the Premiere). But it's possible the retail & announcement timing will line up as it did with the Mini. The PR/Comms team is entirely different, new since the Premiere's launch - so anything is possible. Including Tebow as grandmaster of ceremonies.


----------



## anthonymoody

Yeah there's an awful lot of writing on the wall. I get the sense that I'm going to check back here and find pix from someone's local BB with stacks of Roamios sitting on a shelf. 

That said, and as much as I really want to pounce on a Pro to replace my cable co DVR, I feel like so much is afoot right now that I may wait even if the TiVo hits tomorrow. 

Between the upcoming intel, apple and Sony services, channels as apps, etc i wouldn't be surprised if a year from now the shelves in my entertainment system look very different than they do now.


----------



## Dan203

I'll probably pick up the 6 tuner just for the faster UI. The speed of the UI on my 4 tuner unit annoys me enough that I'm willing to spend hundreds of dollars just to replace it. I'll get the 6 tuner simply because it'll make it more future proof. Plus if it has a built in stream then that's one less device sitting on my desk sucking power.


----------



## ufo4sale

Excuse my ignorance but why is it important to have streaming built into the TiVo itself? Aren't the Premiers capable of streaming to each other now? I'm confused, unless you mean outside the home which would be very cool.


----------



## innocentfreak

ufo4sale said:


> Excuse my ignorance but why is it important to have streaming built into the TiVo itself? Aren't the Premiers capable of streaming to each other now? I'm confused, unless you mean outside the home which would be very cool.


One of the rumors is the top 6 tuner model has a chip in it that lets it do what the Tivo Stream can do.


----------



## tivogurl

Aero 1 said:


> do you have reason to believe that the launch is eminent?


Wouldn't severely declining stocks at retailers suggest that? I supposed TiVo could be so incompetent as to allow stock to decline to zero while not releasing anything for months. That's the sort of thing that kills companies.


----------



## Jeff_DML

innocentfreak said:


> One of the rumors is the top 6 tuner model has a chip in it that lets it do what the Tivo Stream can do.


yes but only 2 streams instead of 4.


----------



## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> <snip>If you are upgrading then it's just a matter of using the online Season Pass manager which works great. I used it when I upgraded to my Elites without any issue<snip>


Once again, aarontwt (perhaps Aaron WITH TiVo), presents another "works great" and "without any issue(s)" statement regarding TiVo.

In what pocket or parallel universe do you live? I'd like to move there.

I don't consider all my Season Passes getting re-organized in some random manner, and not being able to transfer any that aren't in the current Guide Data, to be working great, without issues, or problem free. That's just how it works in my universe, which seems to be shared by more than just myself, based on how many people post about these two issues...

I also experience far greater issues when transferring them from a HD to Premiere, which I expect to remain an issue, and may get even worse. Any new frustration with this on the next gen may push people just far enough to dump their HD models. TiVo wants to sell new TiVos and new subs, so what better way to push people in that direction... I hope that this actually won't be the case, but only time and the new product will tell...

I fully expect more "no issues", "problem-free", "works great", and "it is only a minor issue, which really doesn't affect me" posts. I usually know what aaronwt is going to say BEFORE he even posts. It's very similar to stealth PR campaigns. The always upgrading for free, or close to it, as well as always puffing up what his existing TiVo values should be at the time he resells them also reek of somebody on TiVo's payroll, or somebody who gets rewarded with special gift packages from TiVo.

Admittedly, I have no proof to base my suspicions on. I just see a pattern, and the hallmarks of what I suspect.

Anybody have a TCD746320 (original 2-tuner Premiere w/OTA support) or the 500GB equivalent, new in box, or never used for sale? Please PM me if you do. I'd like to have at least one virgin "parts" unit on-hand, like I do for my HD ones. If you know of a link to a site, or person, selling one, also please PM me. I'd prefer one that is of the latest revision (since TiVo DOES update the insides over time), and not one that has been sitting around for years, but beggars can't be choosers...


----------



## bradleys




----------



## nooneuknow

nooneuknow said:


> Admittedly, I have no proof to base my suspicions on. I just see a pattern, and the hallmarks of what I suspect.


Although, I do know, that in the past, if I kept my TiVo problems, issues, bugs, and malfunctions between myself and TiVo, and only praised them publicly, as well as helping out others with things that I could, I *DID* get boxes of free gifts from TiVo (one of their PR reps), mostly TiVo swag, like hats, bags, breath mints (yes, they made TiVo breath mints), dolls, and remotes.

That was back in the end-of-life period of the HD, and the birth of the Premiere. The early period of the Premiere was just to much for me to remain silent about the problems (and to keep the TiVo praise going), and the gifts ceased (obviously).

Don't waste your time looking for where and when this public praise and help was posted. I redacted all of it. Although, I DO try to help, when I can, here.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming/arguing/bickering/guessing/speculating, and the one person (that I've noticed) of the whole TCF community who has nothing, but praise, for TiVo...


----------



## Dan203

Jeff_DML said:


> yes but only 2 streams instead of 4.


If you only have one TiVo then the current one can really only do 3 streams. I know the Stream itself can transcode 4 streams at a time but it uses the MRS functionality to work and any one TiVo can only stream 3 things at a time.

My biggest question about the new 6 tuner unit is will it's built in Stream functionality work with shows stored on other TiVos on your network? Or only the shows in it's on My Shows list? I still need a 2 tuner Premiere to record my analog only stations and the main shows I stream are typically from those stations. So I need to be able to stream from the 2 tuner Premiere as well. If it can't then that means I have to keep my standalone Stream around.


----------



## aaronwt

nooneuknow said:


> Once again, aarontwt (perhaps Aaron WITH TiVo), presents another "works great" and "without any issue(s)" statement regarding TiVo.
> 
> In what pocket or parallel universe do you live? I'd like to move there.
> 
> I don't consider all my Season Passes getting re-organized in some random manner, and not being able to transfer any that aren't in the current Guide Data, to be working great, without issues, or problem free. That's just how it works in my universe, which seems to be shared by more than just myself, based on how many people post about these two issues...
> 
> ....................


And this is why I said it makes it easier to upgrade once the TV season starts up. Transferring the season passes is better. Since the shows are airing and will be in the guide. And you can also check to make sure there are no issues since they are being aired weekly. As far as a random order, I don't care what order the SPs are when I use the online transfer, just that they transferred. Since I can re-order them online after they have been transferred. Which is much better than a few years ago when I switched to the Premiere and had to redo all my season passes manually.

I call the fact that I can quickly transfer my season passes working great. That alone is a huge difference from spring 2010 when I switched from the S3 to the S4 and had to re-enter every season pass manually. From my perspective that is great. Having them show up in any order is no big deal since the hard part is getting the passes transferred. Once they are transferred you can re-order them online.

I have no experience using the online SP manager between an S3 and an S4. Only between an S4 and an S4(two tuner Premieres to 4 tuner premieres). SInce it was not implemented until fall 2010. This experience is from my point of view, not yours. Your frame of reference is obviously different than mine.

And why the crap about TiVos payroll? I wish I got paid by TiVo since I've certainly purchased enough TiVos over the last twelve years. But I have never worked for TiVo. I was in some beta programs in past years, but not in a while. And I have certainly never received any kickbacks from TiVo. When I sell my TiVos I have typically received some great prices for my lifetime TiVos. But I have also sold them when a new model has been released. Not years later after the price has gone down in the resale market.


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## moyekj

nooneuknow said:


> I don't consider all my Season Passes getting re-organized in some random manner, and not being able to transfer any that aren't in the current Guide Data, to be working great, without issues, or problem free. That's just how it works in my universe, which seems to be shared by more than just myself, based on how many people post about these two issues...


 FYI, since the last TiVo software update on series 4 TiVos, season passes for series currently not in the guide now do transfer fine, at least when using kmttg SP manager (don't know about the online manager as I don't use that anymore). So true backup and restore for any and all series is now possible. When using kmttg the order in which you load SPs from a saved backup is preserved and any auto record wishlists are preserved as well, both of which I don't think ever worked with the TiVo online manager.


----------



## nooneuknow

moyekj said:


> FYI, since the last TiVo software update on series 4 TiVos, season passes for series currently not in the guide now do transfer fine, at least when using kmttg SP manager (don't know about the online manager as I don't use that anymore). So true backup and restore for any and all series is now possible. When using kmttg the order in which you load SPs from a saved backup is preserved and any auto record wishlists are preserved as well, both of which I don't think ever worked with the TiVo online manager.


I guess I'll have to get around to giving kmttg a try, then. What you just said had me go from "meh, I don't want any more software on my cluttered computer" to "it's worth trying it".

Although, it does strengthen my stance on TiVo's way of doing things, and how they aren't issue-free, or working great (as far as transferring SPs goes), since it takes a non-TiVo software to do it right.

You are also right about AR WishLists not transferring with TiVo's "solution".

Thanks for the info.


----------



## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> <snip>And why the crap about TiVos payroll? I wish I got paid by TiVo since I've certainly purchased enough TiVos over the last twelve years. But I have never worked for TiVo. I was in some beta programs in past years, but not in a while. And I have certainly never received any kickbacks from TiVo. When I sell my TiVos I have typically received some great prices for my lifetime TiVos. But I have also sold them when a new model has been released. Not years later after the price has gone down in the resale market.


If TiVo isn't giving you some gift boxes, I'd be upset, if I were in your place, then.

Is there anything you own that breaks, or has issues you are bothered by (since nothing TiVo-related is ever in those categories)?

Why are you so active in saying how great everything TiVo is, and how much value it retains, while never posting any help for those who need help? That seems to be the main draw here (people who Googled a TiVo issue and found themselves here).

It's like as if an Apple iFanBoy droid lost his way and landed here and converted, where most people (seem to be) griping, or seeking help...

I'm not anti-TiVo. I am not upset at people who don't experience all the same issues I do. You are just so predictable, in what you will say, when people say they are having TiVo troubles, or ask questions that have even a hint of them feeling let-down by TiVo. Like I said, whatever universe you live in, where all your TiVos work great, generation after generation, and you upgrade for free, close to it, or even profit, I'd like to move to that universe!

I also just realized that you just admitted you can't speak for all, or even many TiVo users, since you don't keep older gen TiVos around long enough to experience interoperability issues. 

As I've said before, since somebody will ask: I have two choices in my market. I can either rent the cableco equipment (which I know sucks), or use TiVo. If I had a better alternative, I'd have bailed, and wouldn't still be here. Maybe the next gen TiVo is the solution. But, I refuse to hold my breath, hoping they learned their lessons and don't repeat mistakes of the past (or come up with terrible new ones).


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> My biggest question about the new 6 tuner unit is will it's built in Stream functionality work with shows stored on other TiVos on your network? Or only the shows in it's on My Shows list? I still need a 2 tuner Premiere to record my analog only stations and the main shows I stream are typically from those stations. So I need to be able to stream from the 2 tuner Premiere as well. If it can't then that means I have to keep my standalone Stream around.


Thats's a great question. I'm guessing that the dual-transcoding of the BCM7425 SoC expected to be in the 6-tuner will only Stream shows stored internal to the box. If they can keep The Streaming software generic enough to act like the networked Stream box that would be surprising. I suppose this is a use-case where the quad-stream external unit makes a lot of sense.


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> Thats's a great question. I'm guessing that the dual-transcoding of the BCM7425 SoC expected to be in the 6-tuner will only Stream shows stored internal to the box. If they can keep The Streaming software generic enough to act like the networked Stream box that would be surprising. I suppose this is a use-case where the quad-stream external unit makes a lot of sense.


I could also envision them winding down Stream production - simplifying their product line while encouraging folks to upgrade.

Somewhat unrelated to this, related more to a recent Investor forum post, I had wished TiVo would have leveraged their strong brand love (a few years back) and expanded the product line into universal remotes and TiVo Blu-ray players, etc in addition to or in lieu of going after the cable market.


----------



## nooneuknow

davezatz said:


> I could also envision them winding down Stream production - simplifying their product line while encouraging folks to upgrade.
> 
> Somewhat unrelated to this, related more to a recent Investor forum post, I had wished TiVo would have leveraged their strong brand love (a few years back) and expanded the product line into universal remotes and TiVo Blu-ray players, etc in addition to or in lieu of going after the cable market.


What about the power supply? In the Premiere 4-tuner models/Elites they went with an internal PS, but one output at 12v (IIRC), which to me, seems like a step towards a wall-wart or brick-type PS is in the future, since they already have the voltage being split up on the mainboard of what is already on the market.

Anybody else worried about losing the ease of repairing power supply problems, since part of what *was* on the PS is now part of the mainboard? Before anybody says their still-living 4-tuner model, or Elite, is *proof* that we need not worry, think about how short it's current life has been, compared to how long the older generations have lived, and keep on living (maybe with an *easy* repair, or two, along the way, or none at all).

The natural, admittedly cynical, side of me feels like this will result in a more certain "life" in the "lifetime" service, which can only be transferred ONCE under any warranty, even alternate extended ones, without purchasing a new warranty. Then, there's the fact that sometimes TiVo charges a fee for transferring said lifetime service.

I'm actually On-Topic, with some valid points and concerns. Any takers?


----------



## sbiller

nooneuknow said:


> What about the power supply? In the Premiere 4-tuner models/Elites they went with an internal PS, but one output at 12v (IIRC), which to me, seems like a step towards a wall-wart or brick-type PS is in the future, since they already have the voltage being split up on the mainboard of what is already on the market.
> 
> Anybody else worried about losing the ease of repairing power supply problems, since part of what *was* on the PS is now part of the mainboard? Before anybody says their still-living 4-tuner model, or Elite, is *proof* that we need not worry, think about how short it's current life has been, compared to how long the older generations have lived, and keep on living (maybe with an *easy* repair, or two, along the way, or none at all).
> 
> The natural, admittedly cynical, side of me feels like this will result in a more certain "life" in the "lifetime" service, which can only be transferred ONCE under any warranty, even alternate extended ones, without purchasing a new warranty. Then, there's the fact that sometimes TiVo charges a fee for transferring said lifetime service.
> 
> I'm actually On-Topic, with some valid points and concerns. Any takers?


I've had ten plus TiVo since my Philips Series 1 many ions ago. I've never had a power supply failure. I've had two hard drive failures (Series 3 & Premiere XL4) and one tuner failure (Premiere XL4). I'm not concerned about power supply issues but hope TiVo keeps the PS internal to the box versus an external wall-wart. BTW, the Best Buy extended warranty is one-time use and TiVo had no issues transferring lifetime once I faxed them a copy of the Best Buy warranty exchange receipt.


----------



## slowbiscuit

The S3/HD power supply failures due to bad caps are well known and it was a very common issue for a variety of electronics from the mid-2000s. I had two LCDs die with the same problem.

I wouldn't worry about it with the S4s or S5s however.


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## lpwcomp

I don't think anyone has a a lower opinion of TiVo's current s/w development and testing process than I do, but IMNSHO one of the things that makes TiVo preferable to other DVRs is that fact that third party s/w such as kmttg and pyTivo actually work with a stock TiVo.


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## anthonymoody

Dan203 said:


> I'll probably pick up the 6 tuner just for the faster UI. The speed of the UI on my 4 tuner unit annoys me enough that I'm willing to spend hundreds of dollars just to replace it. I'll get the 6 tuner simply because it'll make it more future proof. Plus if it has a built in stream then that's one less device sitting on my desk sucking power.


Yeah that's why I've avoided the premiere line for this long. I experienced the lagginess at a friend's house and...yeah it would make me crazy day in and day out. So I've been suffering the cable co DVR waiting. It's awful in many many ways, but I didn't pay $400 for it 

It's going to be tough for me to resist the Roamio pro...it's sort of the box I've been waiting for. I just have a sneaking suspicion that a year from now I'll wish I hadn't spent the money on it.


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## bradleys

Frankly, I use the iPad as a remote far more often then the old peanut remote. 

With the new processor, I am sure that the S5 line will have a more responsive HDUI, but that won't change my behavior... I suspect that I will hardly even notice the improvement.

As I have said before, I am really looking for that next innovative idea from TiVo, hopefully focused around remote viewing. They need to differentiate this unit from both the existing Premier line and from the other high end CableCo offerings.

I will probably wait until after the first of the year to upgrade. I will put my two S3 units up for sale, so I suppose it depends what kind if deal I get on them.

I would like to average $300 apiece. If I can do that - I will pull the trigger on the base 6 tuner unit and one Mini.


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## davezatz

bradleys said:


> With the new processor, I am sure that the S5 line will have a more responsive HDUI, but that won't change my behavior... I suspect that I will hardly even notice the improvement.


If you use YouTube or Netflix you probably will...


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## Jeff_DML

davezatz said:


> I could also envision them winding down Stream production - simplifying their product line while encouraging folks to upgrade.
> 
> Somewhat unrelated to this, related more to a recent Investor forum post, I had wished TiVo would have leveraged their strong brand love (a few years back) and expanded the product line into universal remotes and TiVo Blu-ray players, etc in addition to or in lieu of going after the cable market.


Wasnt that Best buy tv trying to do that? That seem to flop pretty badly.


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## Jeff_DML

Dan203 said:


> If you only have one TiVo then the current one can really only do 3 streams. I know the Stream itself can transcode 4 streams at a time but it uses the MRS functionality to work and any one TiVo can only stream 3 things at a time.
> 
> My biggest question about the new 6 tuner unit is will it's built in Stream functionality work with shows stored on other TiVos on your network? Or only the shows in it's on My Shows list? I still need a 2 tuner Premiere to record my analog only stations and the main shows I stream are typically from those stations. So I need to be able to stream from the 2 tuner Premiere as well. If it can't then that means I have to keep my standalone Stream around.


As mentioned by sbill that is not the normal use case for the BRCM chip so wouldn't count on it. They could probably get it to work if they wanted to though.


----------



## aaronwt

nooneuknow said:


> If TiVo isn't giving you some gift boxes, I'd be upset, if I were in your place, then.
> 
> Is there anything you own that breaks, or has issues you are bothered by (since nothing TiVo-related is ever in those categories)?
> 
> Why are you so active in saying how great everything TiVo is, and how much value it retains, while never posting any help for those who need help? That seems to be the main draw here (people who Googled a TiVo issue and found themselves here).
> 
> It's like as if an Apple iFanBoy droid lost his way and landed here and converted, where most people (seem to be) griping, or seeking help...
> 
> I'm not anti-TiVo. I am not upset at people who don't experience all the same issues I do. You are just so predictable, in what you will say, when people say they are having TiVo troubles, or ask questions that have even a hint of them feeling let-down by TiVo. Like I said, whatever universe you live in, where all your TiVos work great, generation after generation, and you upgrade for free, close to it, or even profit, I'd like to move to that universe!
> 
> I also just realized that you just admitted you can't speak for all, or even many TiVo users, since you don't keep older gen TiVos around long enough to experience interoperability issues.
> 
> As I've said before, since somebody will ask: I have two choices in my market. I can either rent the cableco equipment (which I know sucks), or use TiVo. If I had a better alternative, I'd have bailed, and wouldn't still be here. Maybe the next gen TiVo is the solution. But, I refuse to hold my breath, hoping they learned their lessons and don't repeat mistakes of the past (or come up with terrible new ones).


Any time I have had an issue with a TiVo I have *always* posted about it. Most recently with Netflix on the Mini. I was the first one to post about the Mini rebooting when it switched to 1080P24 output. I verified multiple times with both of my Minis. This has always been the case if I've run into any issue with my TiVos. For some reason you seem to think everything I post about TiVo is positive. I've always posted positive and negative. I've posted many times about any issue I've had with the TiVo or with TiVo customer service. Of course I can only post about my experience or an experience my GF may have had. But the positive has far out weighed the negative. Again from my experience, not yours.

My two oldest TiVos are two lifetime S3 (OLED) TiVos that I got in 2006. They have been running 24/7/365 except for when I upgraded the hard drives(once to 500GB and then to 1TB) and when I took them to my GFs house after giving them to her. They have worked without any power supply problems or other issues(I probably replaced the fans before I gave them to her, but that was just being proactive since I had already used them for several years before giving them to her). When I upgraded to the Premieres my GF had a couple of S2 TiVos I had given her. So I gave her the option of getting two of the new S4 TiVos or two of the older S3 boxes. She chose the S3 boxes because of the 1TB drive in them. ANd the Premiere could not be upgraded initially. So I sold the two lifetime Premieres that I had purchased with the promotion for those two S3 boxes. My TiVos have always been on a UPS. Even at my GFs house they are on a UPS. And I'm guessing that is one of the reasons why I have not had major issues with my TiVos over the last twelve years.

Hopefully my good luck with the TiVos continue with the S5 series.
But you never know. After using hundreds of hard drives over the last twenty years I finally had one die while in service this month. That was a first for me. Typically any issue I've run into with a hard drive was when it was brand new before being used for storage. Like one of several 3TB Seagates I purchased this week. One of them failed the seagate diagnostics so I need to send it back to Newegg for an exchange.


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## bradleys

davezatz said:


> If you use YouTube or Netflix you probably will...


Kids use Netflix - me, not so much. Their pain doesn't bother me all that much I suppose. 

Once again that is nice and all - but if the only improvement TiVo is offering is an upgraded processor and 2 more tuners then why not just call it the Premier Gen 2 line? We already had an upgrade to the line going from 2 to 4 tuners.

With a name like Roamio and rumors of cloud storage - they have a real opportunity to take this to the logical next step and provide a "competitive technology" to sling box.

Now that would be exciting! That would generate a buzz on the tech blogs and that would provide a real incentive for current users to upgrade and also entice new subscribers!

A simple incremental hardware refresh will do nothing but generate a collective - meh...


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## bradleys

Think of this scenario.

You are away from home browsing your mobile TiVo app and see something you would like to watch. You select the program and initiate a recording to your cloud storage - after a few moments you can begin to stream to your mobile device!

Same idea if you wanted to select a movie from you Local Roamio library moving it into your cloud storage for viewing. 

Now that would be exciting. That would make an upgrade worthwhile!

Hey TiVo - no royalties needed... The idea is yours for the implementing!


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## jcthorne

The cloud storage thing. Could really work well if it worked by identifying the recording rather than actually uploading gigabytes of data. Much like Google music does.


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## magnus

jcthorne said:


> The cloud storage thing. Could really work well if it worked by identifying the recording rather than actually uploading gigabytes of data. Much like Google music does.


That was exactly what I told Boxee but they disagreed. It may have been a legal thing though.


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## wco81

Yeah the studios or the networks which own the shows would have to sign off on allowing a DVR vendor to store recordings and then match the recording when a given user wants to play it.

Probably they'd want specific agreements which aren't covered by the VOD deals, and probably more money.

I think the DVR fees charged by Tivo and the cable and satellite cos. are shared with the networks and studios, if not directly, indirectly.


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## bradleys

The problem with that is you get tied up into all the DRM BS. And then they are going to want to put adds into your stream... Ugh!

I just do not think it would work - I don't want cloud storage for home use but cloud storage that feeds mobile devices wouldn't need that much space - if you managed it well.

Stream to ipad for a 1/2 HD show is 650MB. Even just 10GB of cloud space would be useful if you managed your recordings well.


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## wco81

Is there a chance they'd tie the release of the new models to some event, either a trade show or the start of the fall TV season or the NFL?

Or are they mainly about aiming to have product before Thanksgiving/Black Friday?

Not that they'd discount a new product for some BF deal but that's when all the shopping begins.


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## HarperVision

They may be waiting until CEDIA in September.


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## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> Any time I have had an issue with a TiVo I have *always* posted about it. Most recently with Netflix on the Mini. I was the first one to post about the Mini rebooting when it switched to 1080P24 output. I verified multiple times with both of my Minis. This has always been the case if I've run into any issue with my TiVos. For some reason you seem to think everything I post about TiVo is positive. I've always posted positive and negative. I've posted many times about any issue I've had with the TiVo or with TiVo customer service. Of course I can only post about my experience or an experience my GF may have had. But the positive has far out weighed the negative. Again from my experience, not yours.<snip>


Well when 99% of what you post about TiVo is glowingly positive, is it really "selective" that I may have missed or forgotten the 1% of "other"?

I guess the next logical questions would be:

If I put a TiVo sticker on it, before you received it, would you report in the same manner?

If I sold you the worst car on earth, with a TiVo bumper sticker, would you still report in the same manner?

Now I really am pushing it, but it's tongue-in-check, now (and some of it already was).

Your points are taken and considered.


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## nooneuknow

So, I was thinking about what an EPIC FAIL TiVo's marketing of the Premiere was, as "The One Box". I wondered if they were going for yet another epic fail, and came up with this:

Will they market the Roamio as "The Only Box"?

If they did, and I had a Premiere and Roamio stacked, or side by side, then I could say "There's my one and only", while pointing at my TiVos.


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## bradleys

And the thread is dead...


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## tenthplanet

bradleys said:


> And the thread is dead...


 Pray the thread is not a zombie.


----------



## nooneuknow

There's always the "TiVo Series 5" thread, over here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=501974


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## bradleys

Point to a thread that you're not posting in... I think that is where you will find everyone else.


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## Davisadm

This week is going to be very exciting...

A lot of *TiVo* stuff happening!!!!


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## sneagle

Davisadm said:


> This week is going to be very exciting...
> 
> A lot of TiVo stuff happening!!!!


More exciting than this thread?


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## Davisadm

Dreams may come true!


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## sbiller

Davisadm said:


> Dreams may come true!


+1. :up:


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## davezatz

Davisadm said:


> Dreams may come true!


TiVoShanan will personally deliver me a 6-tuner Tivo with built in Stream and OLED display? Makes espresso, too?


----------



## NoVa

sneagle said:


> More exciting than this thread?


I hope so...this jumped the shark with the numerous TiVo is full of holes posts....


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## sbiller

Davisadm said:


> Dreams may come true!


Any guess as to what day this week?!


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## innocentfreak

Embargos rarely go down Sunday night so I would guess possibly a Monday night lift. If that happens, stores might have them by this weekend?

I do hope we are surprised by some of the news.

Of course this could also be an announcement week with the box 30 days from now. It might depend how Best Buy is with stock.


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## lpwcomp

davezatz said:


> TiVoShanan will personally deliver me a 6-tuner Tivo with built in Stream and OLED display? Makes espresso, too?


And Julienne Fries! The actual new name is the Popeil TiVo.


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## bradleys

davezatz said:


> TiVoShanan will personally deliver me a 6-tuner Tivo with built in Stream and OLED display? Makes espresso, too?


So very cool!


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## Dan203

I'm pretty sure Shannon left TiVo a couple years ago. Perhaps you need to update your fantasy to include someone who's still with the company.


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## bradleys

Dan203 said:


> I'm pretty sure Shannon left TiVo a couple years ago. Perhaps you need to update your fantasy to include someone who's still with the company.


Yeah - I read his post wrong. 

I missed the question mark and the rest. Anyway, very excited to see what gets announced, and Dave, I hope they do get you a demo machine to review as quickly as possible!


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## MeInDallas

Why do you guys think something will be announced this week? Whats special about this week?


----------



## HarperVision

Davisadm said:


> This week is going to be very exciting...
> 
> A lot of TiVo stuff happening!!!!


I think it's because the above person, who's title says he's a "Certified TiVo Dealer", made the above post.


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## MeInDallas

Ah OK, I was trying to search for clues on it, thanks!


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## Dan203

I'm pretty sure this is the same guy who gave us good intel about the Mini release. Even when TiVo screwed it up and delayed it, he seemed to know what was going on. So I think he's a pretty reliable source.


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## HarperVision

Oh cool, that makes it even more exciting!


----------



## Aero 1

davezatz said:


> TiVoShanan will personally deliver me a 6-tuner Tivo with built in Stream and OLED display? Makes espresso, too?


i want dominos pizza ordering back!


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## davezatz

Aero 1 said:


> i want dominos pizza ordering back!


That was like the first time I'd ordered Dominos in years, solely for blog purposes, and boy was it a mistake - they texted me promos for months.


----------



## mr_smits

davezatz said:


> That was like the first time I'd ordered Dominos in years, solely for blog purposes, and boy was it a mistake - they texted me promos for months.


Ha! Dominos has a nice smartphone app.


----------



## innocentfreak

While I was out today, I stopped in Best Buy and unsurprisingly no news. 

This leads me to believe that this will be an announcement this week with possible ordering direct through TiVo similar to the launch of the Premiere. Best Buy wouldn't have them in stock till September as a result. 

If Best Buy was going to have them in stores this week, I would expect to see them in the Best Buy systems where they could clearly see product incoming or in stock. At this point they are saying they can't even see the sku or model numbers.


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## davezatz

Launching as kids are going back to school and the lucky ones are still on vacation isn't ideal. Other than back to school computers, August is notoriously dead in CE (sales, advertising, interest). So maybe the announcement now and then availability in a few weeks with another post-Labor Day announcement?


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## Dan203

Maybe they want sales to be slow at first so they can ramp up the support staff and production ahead of the holiday rush. This could be the perfect time to launch a new version.


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## nooneuknow

Dan203 said:


> Maybe they want sales to be slow at first so they can ramp up the support staff and production ahead of the holiday rush. This could be the perfect time to launch a new version.


I agree. If they launch at a non-prime period, the low initial sales will make it easier for their support staff to get into the groove. It also might expose bugs that could be fixed by prime-time.

What I don't get is my local Best Buy stores have the 2-Tuner Premiere in-stock, but still want full retail price of $149 for the 75 hour model, same as TiVo directly. They should be in the clearance category, from what I understand is going on in other regions.

Unfortunately, they don't price match in-store prices with online prices. Amazon has the same thing for ~$84, new.

I guess I'll just have to online order, and save on sales tax. I'm just looking for a new unit to have for parts (and a virgin hard drive). I know I can get them cheap from TiVo as refurbished, but who knows what the history of a refurb will be...


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Here we go!

http://www.petra.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=tivo+roamio

$200, $400, $600




























Roamio (4 tuner)
$199.99
Up to 75 HD/500 SD hours of recording capacity
500GB
Dolby® volume leveling
TIVo® app available for iOS™ & Android™ tablets & smartphones
Connects to TiVo® Mini & other TiVo® DVRs
Records up to 4 HD shows at once
Works with digital cable systems & digital HD antenna
14-day program guide
Includes RF/IR remote

Roamio Plus (6 tuners)
$399.99
Records up to 6 HD shows at once
Up to 150 HD/1,000 SD hours of recording capacity
1TB
TiVo® search simultaneously searches TV & web entertainment together
Accesses Netflix®, Hulu Plus®, Amazon®, Pandora®, Spotify®, YouTube® & more
Dolby volume leveling
TiVo® app available for iOS™ & Android™ tablets & smartphones
Built-in MoCA bridge for easy installation
Works with digital cable systems
Connects to multiple TiVo® Mini devices
Connects to other TiVo® DVRs
Streams live & recorded shows to iPad® or iPhone®
Includes RF/IR remote

Roamio Pro (6 tuners)
$599.99
Records up to 6 HD shows at once
Up to 450 HD/3,000 SD hours of recording capacity
3TB
TiVo® search simultaneously searches TV & web entertainment together
Accesses Netflix®, Hulu Plus®, Amazon®, Pandora®, Spotify®, YouTube® & more
Dolby® volume leveling
TiVo® app available for iOS™ & Android™ tablets & smartphones
Built-in MoCA bridge for easy installation
Works with digital cable systems
Connects to multiple TiVo® Mini devices
Connects to other TiVo® DVRs
Streams live & recorded shows to iPad® or iPhone®
Includes RF/IR remote


----------



## innocentfreak

I believe only the XL4s are in the clearance category. I have yet to see the Premiere for less than $99 and that was on sale. 

It could still be 9/30 for the release. Mention it on earnings call this month, 28th I believe, unveil at CEDIA Sept 26-28th, and on sale first week of October. 

I think missing the fall Premieres would be a bad move. By beating the fall premieres you catch those who want to record them all. By releasing after the fall premieres people know how many tuners they need and may opt for the 4 over the 6. 

Of course they could also announce this week, sell direct from TiVo, and 30 days later public release on sale at Best Buy like the Premiere launched, iirc. 

If they did that depending on what if any upgrade is offered, I don't know what I would do.

EDIT: Big Jim posted while I was typing. 

Ouch at the $600 price tag. I am definitely waiting to see what upgrades and bundles are offered. Here is hoping disc drives are easily upgraded.


----------



## cncb

I hope not mentioning Netflix on the 4 tuner is just an oversight...


----------



## tivogurl

innocentfreak said:


> Ouch at the $600 price tag. I am definitely waiting to see what upgrades and bundles are offered. Here is hoping disc drives are easily upgraded.


If that information is true, it looks like the only difference between the Plus and the Pro is the hard drive. $200 for a 1TB->3TB upgrade, when even at full retail a new 3TB drive is ~$120, is pretty outrageous pricing.


----------



## innocentfreak

tivogurl said:


> If that information is true, it looks like the only difference between the Plus and the Pro is the hard drive. $200 for a 1TB->3TB upgrade, when even at full retail a new 3TB drive is ~$120, is pretty outrageous pricing.


I definitely agree. I know TiVo usually prices the top models so the hardware is profitable, but $200 for a drive upgrade is insane when you can buy the 3TB AV drive for $149 retail.


----------



## aaronwt

Crap!!!! $600?!?!?

Is the only difference between the Plus and the Pro the 3TB drive? if so I hope someone figures out how to expand it quickly. Because if they are the same, I'm not paying $200 for an extra 2TB. Not when I just picked up several 3TB drives for $110 each. And the last 2TB drive I picked up earlier this Summer was only $70.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

$600 is a bit icky, and no MoCA mentioned on the 4-tuner. But otherwise probably within early expectations.


----------



## bradleys

Meh... Upgraded processor is all I see so far.

Looks like the 4 tuner unit is significantly hobbled if you take the feature list at face value. No Over the Top apps?

I hope reveiws will reveal more then just this simple incremental update of a processor and two additional tuners.


----------



## MeInDallas

Wonder why the base model has a different shape?


----------



## Dan203

MeInDallas said:


> Wonder why the base model has a different shape?


If you look at it compared to the remote it's also smaller then the other unit.

Also is it just me, or does the remote look stumpier. Looks like it's somewhere between the Premiere remote and the Slide


----------



## aaronwt

Yes the remote does look smaller. Which looks like a nice improvement since I like the size of the Slide remote.

And I guess I need to look at the four tuner unit price to figure out what to sell my ELite boxes for.

But $600 for the pro?? I could see $500 but $600 seems excessive.


----------



## davezatz

BigJimOutlaw said:


> $600 is a bit icky, and no MoCA mentioned on the 4-tuner. But otherwise probably within early expectations.


Stellar find! Even though I'm not surprised by the details or pricing. I assume the current 2-tuner Premiere will stay on shelves for some time (months) at the $100 price point, then we'll see a price drop across the board.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> Also is it just me, or does the remote look stumpier. Looks like it's somewhere between the Premiere remote and the Slide


Yes, at a first passing glace I almost thought it was the Slide.

Can anyone make out what the button says under the directional pad? It almost looks like "Guide" but that would be redundant.


----------



## rogmatic

The software will be the interesting part.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

davezatz said:


> Stellar find! Even though I'm not surprised by the details or pricing. I assume the current 2-tuner Premiere will stay on shelves for some time (months) at the $100 price point, then we'll see a price drop across the board.


My compulsive need to google the model numbers every couple days to find a hit like this finally paid off.


----------



## innocentfreak

I am definitely on hold from a day 1 buy at those prices. It is now entirely dependent on what upgrade offers and bundles are available. 

With no upgrade offer and just MSD that is $1000 for the Pro model and $800 for the Plus.


----------



## Dan203

I can't believe it's actually called a Roamio.  Oh well I'll just call it the S5


----------



## innocentfreak

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yes, at a first passing glace I almost thought it was the Slide.
> 
> Can anyone make out the button under the directional pad? Almost looks like "Guide" but can't quite make it out for sure.


Looks like Guide to me.

The zoom button and regular guide button on the remote look like they say something different.

Either the directional pad is smaller or the remote is somewhere between the size of the Slide and the Peanut. On the Slide you don't have the room for a Guide button there and I can't see making the existing buttons smaller.


----------



## davezatz

BigJimOutlaw said:


> My compulsive need to google the model numbers every couple days to find a hit like this finally paid off.


Your Googling has exceeded my Google Alerts.


----------



## MeInDallas

Dan203 said:


> If you look at it compared to the remote it's also smaller then the other unit.
> 
> Also is it just me, or does the remote look stumpier. Looks like it's somewhere between the Premiere remote and the Slide


Yes it does look smaller, I didnt notice that at first. Maybe its like someone said and has a wall wart power supply, or one like a laptop. Maybe even the 2.5 form factor hard drive like was discussed. Seagate has a 500GB video drive capable of 12 HD streams, so maybe they threw that in there 

EDIT: Looks like Western Digital changed the specs on their 2.5 A/V drive to now say 10, it used to say 4.


----------



## Dan203

I actually wouldn't mind it having an external power supply. At least those are typically cheap and easy to replace.


----------



## MeInDallas

Dan203 said:


> I actually wouldn't mind it having an external power supply. At least those are typically cheap and easy to replace.


Exactly, I agree on that one! TWC uses the DCX3510M Motorola DVR in my area and it has an external power supply on it, very small size for a DVR too.


----------



## sbiller

davezatz said:


> Your Googling has exceeded my Google Alerts.


No OLED! Arghhhh...


----------



## Dan203

I never really cared about the OLED on the S3. Maybe if it were 2x the size it might have been useful, but it was so small I couldn't read it from across the room anyway.


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> I never really cared about the OLED on the S3. Maybe if it were 2x the size it might have been useful, but it was so small I couldn't read it from across the room anyway.


I couldn't really see it either unless I was walking by the unit, but there was something sophisticated about it - I'm seduced by the eye candy and it looked nothing like the cablecos generic box. Hoping for better Roamio pics tomorrow - based on these lower res product shots, it almost looks like they're doing something similar to the Slingbox PRO-HD with a metal grate front and light behind. Hm.


----------



## bradleys

aaronwt said:


> Yes the remote does look smaller. Which looks like a nice improvement since I like the size of the Slide remote.


I don't think so... I think it is just the scaling of the image that makes it look different.


----------



## series5orpremier

I was speculating they might adjust the price of lifetime as a function of the number of tuners. Maybe that's what they've effectively done with the upfront hardware pricing. I was thinking they could make retail lifetime $600 for the 6-tuner models, keep it at $500 for the 4-tuner, and actually reduce it to $400 for the Premier which they could keep around as the entry level box while permanently lowering it's suggested retail price to $100.


----------



## davezatz

bradleys said:


> I don't think so... I think it is just the scaling of the image that makes it look different.


I found that the pic in the FCC filing looked smaller than the current Peanut...


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

innocentfreak said:


> Looks like Guide to me.
> 
> The zoom button and regular guide button on the remote look like they say something different.
> 
> Either the directional pad is smaller or the remote is somewhere between the size of the Slide and the Peanut. On the Slide you don't have the room for a Guide button there and I can't see making the existing buttons smaller.


It looks like the big one says Guide, and Zoom was moved to the right side where the old Guide button was. Now to figure out what the small one on the left says... Looks a little like Search, but...


----------



## bradleys

I am really looking forward to the detailed reviews, hopefully something will come out to tell me that this is more then a simple incremental update.

I will probably swing for the $400 Roamio Plus model, but only because I never purchased a 4 tuner Elite.


----------



## innocentfreak

series5orpremier said:


> I was speculating they might adjust the price of lifetime as a function of the number of tuners. Maybe that's what they've effectively done with the upfront hardware pricing. I was thinking they could make retail lifetime $600 for the 6-tuner models, keep it at $500 for the 4-tuner, and actually reduce it to $400 for the Premier which they could keep around as the entry level box while permanently lowering it's suggested retail price to $100.


If they did that, a new TiVo wouldn't even be a consideration for me.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

It's more or less incremental. Depending on the models, it's a CPU upgrade, HDD upgrade, Stream integration, 4-tuner OTA support, RF remote...

MoCA and app support are missing from the 4-tuner description, so those are flags to watch until we hear otherwise. Can't imagine why there wouldn't be app support.

I'm probably in for a Plus sooner rather than later. The sluggish Elite has been annoying me, and the extra tuners will free up the chance to add another Mini at some point.


----------



## series5orpremier

So maybe it's more palatable marketing just to add that $100 to the upfront price of the box, which appears what they may have done.


----------



## Dan203

I wish the Plus had a 2TB drive instead of 1TB then I wouldn't need the Pro. But as it is now my Elite is 63% full and it has a 2TB so the 1TB drive in the Pro isn't enough. I guess I could get an eSATA but it's cleaner to just pay for the 3TB Pro.

I'm guessing that an Elite with Lifetime and 1.5 years of extended warranty left probably wont go for more then $500-$600, so this is still going to be a big expense.


----------



## sbiller

I wonder if we should make anything of this difference in the wording about connecting to the Mini's?



> 4-Tuner - Connects to TiVo® Mini & other TiVo® DVRs





> 6-Tuners - Connects to multiple TiVo® Mini devices


I would be very surprised if Dynamic Tuner Allocation was supported only in the 6-tuner boxes...


----------



## Dan203

You'd be surprised if DTA *was* supported on the 6-tuner? Why? It should be supported on all TiVos.


----------



## stack

Hoping this release puts a lot of 4's and XL's on the market so I can pick up my first TiVo lol


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> You'd be surprised if DTA *was* supported on the 6-tuner? Why? It should be supported on all TiVos.


Just think the wording on the 4-tuner is odd compared to the 6-tuner. I expect it's just inconsistent wording.


----------



## innocentfreak

Dan203 said:


> I wish the Plus had a 2TB drive instead of 1TB then I wouldn't need the Pro. But as it is now my Elite is 63% full and it has a 2TB so the 1TB drive in the Pro isn't enough. I guess I could get an eSATA but it's cleaner to just pay for the 3TB Pro.
> 
> I'm guessing that an Elite with Lifetime and 1.5 years of extended warranty left probably wont go for more then $500-$600, so this is still going to be a big expense.


If they had a XL4 I would consider that at this point even though 6 tuners 3 TB is the model I wanted.


----------



## Dan203

sbiller said:


> Just think the wording on the 4-tuner is odd compared to the 6-tuner. I expect it's just inconsistent wording.


That could just be the marketing. The 6 tuner is likely to be marketed as a hub/spoke setup with a single TiVo in the main room and multiple Minis in the other rooms. The 4 tuner, because of it's dual personality of being able to record OTA or Cable, but not both, might be more likely to end up in a multi-TiVo household.

However I seriously doubt their actual functionality will be different. I suspect that once DTA is live the tuner allocation option will be gone and everything will just be automatic. The limit on the number of Minis that can access a TiVo at once should be either the number of tuners it has (minus 1 for the host) or whatever the limit on the max number of simultaneous streams is. (currently 3 but could be more on the 6 tuner if the hardware can handle it)


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

sbiller said:


> I wonder if we should make anything of this difference in the wording about connecting to the Mini's?
> 
> I would be very surprised if Dynamic Tuner Allocation was supported only in the 6-tuner boxes...


That reads to me more like maybe the 4-tuner model might not support more than one Mini, DTA or not. Another strange "wait for the official word" thing to add. The messaging may not be fully baked.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> That could just be the marketing. The 6 tuner is likely to be marketed as a hub/spoke setup with a single TiVo in the main room and multiple Minis in the other rooms. The 4 tuner, because of it's dual personality of being able to record OTA or Cable, but not both, might be more likely to end up in a multi-TiVo household.
> 
> However I seriously doubt their actual functionality will be different. I suspect that once DTA is live the tuner allocation option will be gone and everything will just be automatic. The limit on the number of Minis that can access a TiVo at once should be either the number of tuners it has (minus 1 for the host) or whatever the limit on the max number of simultaneous streams is. (currently 3 but could be more on the 6 tuner if the hardware can handle it)


Agreed. Thanks!


----------



## nooneuknow

MeInDallas said:


> Yes it does look smaller, I didnt notice that at first. Maybe its like someone said and has a wall wart power supply, or one like a laptop. Maybe even the 2.5 form factor hard drive like was discussed. Seagate has a 500GB video drive capable of 12 HD streams, so maybe they threw that in there
> 
> EDIT: Looks like Western Digital changed the specs on their 2.5 A/V drive to now say 10, it used to say 4.


Here's something to consider:

Unless TiVo has finally started using AV streaming extensions, it doesn't matter how many streams the drive specs say.

If they have finally started using AV streaming extensions, that means no more using non-AV drives for upgrades.

All Premiere and previous TiVo models wrote the data to the drive just the same as a computer would write any old data. This was why we could use non-AV drives to upgrade them.

Last time I looked, my Premiere logs all showed that even though the controller chip and drives supported SATA-2, the TiVo set the mode to SATA-1.

I can't wait for somebody to do a teardown and spec-out on all the guts, as well as to see if TiVo finally updated their code to use the full potential, beyond SATA-1, and if they began using AV streaming extensions...

A lot of people seem to think that just because there is an AV rated drive inside, that it automatically uses the AV streaming command set. So far, that's been absolutely wrong. Just like saying that you shouldn't use AV-rated drives in PCs. An AV drive in a PC runs in non-AV mode, just like they've been doing inside TiVos all this time...


----------



## NYHeel

With these terrible prices I'm going to wait and see if someone puts together a 3TB drive upgrade. Or maybe I'll just wait for prices to come down or promotions to come out. Wow is the price for the 3TB model bad. How are they going to sell a DVR for $1100 total. Maybe they'll lower their service pricing? I thought $400 maybe $500. But $600? That's horrific.


----------



## stack

Going to start scouring for my first TiVo. Looks like I will be looking for a lifetime paid XL or 4 version since prices should drop,


----------



## bareyb

I seem to be doing fine with ONLY four tuners on my Elite... Still... Six tuners would be _better_... Maybe I'll give the kids the Elite and sell my beloved Series 3.


----------



## moyekj

I'll be willing to fork out $800 for a lifetime Roamio Plus right away just to not have to deal with my laggy Elite anymore. 1TB should be enough space - certainly wouldn't be willing to spend $200 for 2TB extra. Kind of wish they had a cheaper 6 tuner model without built in stream since I don't have much use for that feature.


----------



## Aero 1

being ota only, with 2 premiere's i dont see a need for this or the extra expense, even as a replacement. 

if we assume lifetime being $299 MSD, $500 plus a mini, its not worth it to me. Especially that i have no issues with the premiere's speed, functionality, storage or multipath/tuner issues others here experience. I already have a stream so that functionality is a wash for me and i use an appletv or roku for the streaming stuff.

this thing better have some totally new and compelling software wise that is only in the S5 line that could prompt me to upgrade.


----------



## CrispyCritter

NYHeel said:


> With these terrible prices I'm going to wait and see if someone puts together a 3TB drive upgrade. Or maybe I'll just wait for prices to come down or promotions to come out. Wow is the price for the 3TB model bad. How are they going to sell a DVR for $1100 total. Maybe they'll lower their service pricing? I thought $400 maybe $500. But $600? That's horrific.


It's what TiVo has been doing for years. The top-of-the-line model is priced so TiVo about breaks even on it. Al the other models have substantial hardware subsidies on them. Historically, the subsidies have been in the 30-40% range when totaled across all the models (though last year was the first time substantially under 25% ever since they started building them). For instance, in 2009, TiVo received $42M in hardware revenues, while the cost of hardware revenues was $58M.

So figure a bit under $100 for the extra disk, and over $100 in lack of subsidy, and you get the $200 price differential for the Pro as opposed to the Plus.


----------



## mrizzo80

A bit surprised the EngadgetHD podcast is happening tonight. With the rumors of the TiVo S5 embargo lifting soon I would've thought they'd hold the podcast til tomorrow night so they could discuss it.


----------



## innocentfreak

Aero 1 said:


> being ota only, with 2 premiere's i dont see a need for this or the extra expense, even as a replacement.
> 
> if we assume lifetime being $299 MSD, $500 plus a mini, its not worth it to me. Especially that i have no issues with the premiere's speed, functionality, storage or multipath/tuner issues others here experience. I already have a stream so that functionality is a wash for me and i use an appletv or roku for the streaming stuff.
> 
> this thing better have some totally new and compelling software wise that is only in the S5 line that could prompt me to upgrade.


MSD is $399 now.


----------



## P42

stack said:


> Going to start scouring for my first TiVo. Looks like I will be looking for a lifetime paid XL or 4 version since prices should drop,


Why don't you stick what your interested in buying in your sig? Also, there is a big difference between an XL and a 4, so be clear. And who knows someone may PM you. Regards.


----------



## aridon

Can't wait for some people to get hands on to see if the lag is fixed or not. That was the biggest reason I got rid of my Premiere and went back to D*.


----------



## steinbch

I've got a 2-tuner Premiere with lifetime that I'll be willing to sell as soon as the ordering info is posted.


----------



## Dan203

Aero 1 said:


> being ota only, with 2 premiere's i dont see a need for this or the extra expense, even as a replacement.
> 
> if we assume lifetime being $299 MSD, $500 plus a mini, its not worth it to me. Especially that i have no issues with the premiere's speed, functionality, storage or multipath/tuner issues others here experience. I already have a stream so that functionality is a wash for me and i use an appletv or roku for the streaming stuff.
> 
> this thing better have some totally new and compelling software wise that is only in the S5 line that could prompt me to upgrade.


The only real advantage to you would be consolidating those tuners into a single box. Managing a single To Do List is a lot easier then managing two. A 4 tuner box and a Mini would be $850 with lifetime, you could probably sell your two Premiere's for close to that, so it might only cost to $100 when it's all said and done. Plus if the new unit really does have an external power brick, rather then an internal power supply, that would be a big boon for long term reliability.


----------



## innocentfreak

Dan203 said:


> The only real advantage to you would be consolidating those tuners into a single box. Managing a single To Do List is a lot easier then managing two. A 4 tuner box and a Mini would be $850 with lifetime, you could probably sell your two Premiere's for close to that, so it might only cost to $100 when it's all said and done. Plus if the new unit really does have an external power brick, rather then an internal power supply, that would be a big boon for long term reliability.


Also saves on a CableCARD which if on FiOS is now $4.99 a month or $60 a year.


----------



## SullyND

innocentfreak said:


> Also saves on a CableCARD which if on FiOS is now $4.99 a month or $60 a year.


Dan was replying to someone who is OTA though, right?


----------



## nooneuknow

steinbch said:


> I've got a 2-tuner Premiere with lifetime that I'll be willing to sell as soon as the ordering info is posted.


You should put that in your signature.

There's also a Buyer/Seller area for such matters:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=72


----------



## Dan203

innocentfreak said:


> Also saves on a CableCARD which if on FiOS is now $4.99 a month or $60 a year.





SullyND said:


> Dan was replying to someone who is OTA though, right?


Yeah the poster was OTA only. I actually almost suggested the same savings on a CableCARD and then caught myself right before I posted.


----------



## Aero 1

Dan203 said:


> The only real advantage to you would be consolidating those tuners into a single box. Managing a single To Do List is a lot easier then managing two. A 4 tuner box and a Mini would be $850 with lifetime, you could probably sell your two Premiere's for close to that, so it might only cost to $100 when it's all said and done. Plus if the new unit really does have an external power brick, rather then an internal power supply, that would be a big boon for long term reliability.


i thought of the to do list, but honestly, its not that big of a deal to us. the power brick idea is interesting and the central hub aspect of this is a little scary because if it goes down, there goes all recordings and all live tv functionality until it gets fixed.

to me, if there is no exclusive improvement or features only available to the S5 and not available to the older models, its not worth my time and an extra $100 out of my pocket to go through the trouble of selling my old units, calling tivo for transfers and possible paying ebay and paypal fees. only time will tell if its worth it.


----------



## innocentfreak

Dan203 said:


> Yeah the poster was OTA only. I actually almost suggested the same savings on a CableCARD and then caught myself right before I posted.


Missed that.

The bid thing with the power brick is I hope the cord is long enough. In one of the rooms I have the TiVo above the TV and always had issues with the 360 there because the cables weren't long enough for me to set the power brick anywhere.


----------



## MScottC

I'm very disappointed that the larger units don't do OTA. That is really what I was waiting for. And if the smallest unit can't take a 1 TB drive, I'm really going to be annoyed. I simply wanted a 6 tuner model that allowed me the option of dropping cable. This bites.


----------



## innocentfreak

MScottC said:


> I'm very disappointed that the larger units don't do OTA. That is really what I was waiting for. And if the smallest unit can't take a 1 TB drive, I'm really going to be annoyed. I simply wanted a 6 tuner model that allowed me the option of dropping cable. This bites.


This is the first quad tuner OTA box. You will probably be waiting a long time for it since the tech is well behind where cable tuners are at.


----------



## MScottC

Perhaps... but don't cut off all the other options that come with the larger models as well. I can actually deal with the 4 tuners. My wife and I have dealt with 2 tuners since I purchased the original S3. I just wanted this to go along with a mini for the guest room and at least a TB of storage, along with all the streaming options.


----------



## greatking8

For the 4 tuner model, do you think it will be 4 tuners that can do both OTA and Cable or 2 tuners for OTA and 2 for cable? 

I was holding out thinking all 4 could be for OTA but I have a feeling the 4 tuners will actually be 2OTA/2QAM.


----------



## bradleys

greatking8 said:


> For the 4 tuner model, do you think it will be 4 tuners that can do both OTA and Cable or 2 tuners for OTA and 2 for cable?
> 
> I was holding out thinking all 4 could be for OTA but I have a feeling the 4 tuners will actually be 2OTA/2QAM.


From what we heard you select either OTA or Cable at setup - and all tuners are available for that purpose.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

greatking8 said:


> For the 4 tuner model, do you think it will be 4 tuners that can do both OTA and Cable or 2 tuners for OTA and 2 for cable?
> 
> I was holding out thinking all 4 could be for OTA but I have a feeling the 4 tuners will actually be 2OTA/2QAM.


Early word is that you will be able to select 4 OTA or 4 QAM, but won't be able to mix and match. It's 4 usable tuners for one source or the other.


----------



## innocentfreak

greatking8 said:


> For the 4 tuner model, do you think it will be 4 tuners that can do both OTA and Cable or 2 tuners for OTA and 2 for cable?
> 
> I was holding out thinking all 4 could be for OTA but I have a feeling the 4 tuners will actually be 2OTA/2QAM.


The one rumor is it will be 4 qam/4OTA, but you can't mix. You will only be able to use one or the other.

TiVo likes to keep it simple so I doubt it would be 2+2 since more of a support nightmare from customers expecting 4 tuners. Then again they did it before with the series 2 dual tuner.

They could also do 4qam/2ota but I doubt it.


----------



## sbiller

I think the embargo drops in 90 minutes... for those inclined to stay up late into the night!


----------



## CoxInPHX

I was really hoping for a 6 tuner with 3TB, (or at least 2TB), but not for $600.

Guess I will have to wait for the Woot Renaming sell-off!!! 

Or the price to drop to $500 at the very most.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Killing time til then... lol. So what does everybody think of the hardware design?

The pics from that site aren't the best. The source images were resized creating a moire pattern on the mesh, but overall they're not bad looking. Not great either. I'm not a big fan of silver electronics. The cell phone pic off the TV made the Roamio-4 look almost totally silver, but the actual box looks better than that.

The lights are hard to see in the mesh noise. At least in the photos.

If there's a Find my Remote button, where might it be (Tivo logo = button?) Guess we'll find out soon enough.


----------



## innocentfreak

I think in the past they have also held it til 9 AM, but hopefully it drops tonight.


----------



## innocentfreak

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Killing time til then... lol. So what does everybody think of the hardware design?
> 
> The pics from that site aren't the best. The source images were resized creating a moire pattern on the mesh, but overall they're not bad looking. Not great either. I'm not a big fan of silver electronics. The cell phone pic off the TV made the Roamio-4 look almost totally silver, but the actual box looks better than that.


Not a huge fan of the design. It looks almost like a binder or file folder with a flip cover.


----------



## MeInDallas

Its the name I hate! I know it dont make any difference in what it does, but I think they couldve come up with a better name. Now for years to come everyone here will be saying "Roamio Roamio"


----------



## Philmatic

It will be tonight... tivo.com came down for maintenance at 11pm EDT (It's 11:11pm right now).

http://www.tivo.com/


----------



## Davisadm

MeInDallas said:


> Wonder why the base model has a different shape?


The base model has a smaller form factor.



BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yes, at a first passing glace I almost thought it was the Slide.
> 
> Can anyone make out what the button says under the directional pad? It almost looks like "Guide" but that would be redundant.


The two buttons between the thumbs down & up are Mute & Rec


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Davisadm said:


> The two buttons between the thumbs down & up are Mute & Rec


It doesn't appear to be the same Slide remote. The big button below the directional pad appears to say Guide. The question now is what's the small button between the Volume and Input on the new one. (Zoom looks like it was moved to the right.)

Edit: It says Back.


----------



## MeInDallas

Do you know does the smaller one use an external power supply?


----------



## Philmatic

cnet is the first to break the embargo: http://news.yahoo.com/video/tivos-latest-dvr-goes-whole-153646182-cbs.html

Wow... the interface is fast fast fast!

Built in WiFi! on all Models!
Newest versions of Netflix and YouTube apps are preloaded
And... wait for it... *HTML 5 is now available as an app platform!* Netflix and YouTube already using it, but no word on if the entire interface has been moved over or if this is only for the OTT apps.
What to Watch Now, similar to the iPhone/iPad app
Built in streaming on the Plus and Tivo *is planning on outside the home streaming as well*
Internal power supplies on at least the Plus and Pro, no word on the OTA model


----------



## Philmatic

Also, SEVERAL UI enhancements.


----------



## innocentfreak

Philmatic said:


> cnet is the first to break the embargo: http://news.yahoo.com/video/tivos-latest-dvr-goes-whole-153646182-cbs.html
> 
> Wow... the interface is fast fast fast!
> 
> Built in WiFi! on all Models!
> Newest versions of Netflix and YouTube apps are preloaded
> And... wait for it... *HTML 5 is now available as an app platform!* Netflix and YouTube already using it, but no word on if the entire interface has been moved over or if this is only for the OTT apps.
> What to Watch Now, similar to the iPhone/iPad app
> Built in streaming on the Plus and Tivo *is planning on outside the home streaming as well*
> Internal power supplies on at least the Plus and Pro, no word on the OTA model


It looks fast, but tough to really judge until full drives and multiple recordings.

HTML5 platform?


----------



## innocentfreak

BigJimOutlaw said:


> It doesn't appear to be the same Slide remote. The big button below the directional pad appears to say Guide. The question now is what's the small button between the Volume and Input on the new one. (Zoom looks like it was moved to the right.)


It says Back per the Cnet video. Maybe instead of left now you hit back to go back a screen?


----------



## innocentfreak

Now that it is official. We may want to start a new thread with the official name.


----------



## Philmatic

innocentfreak said:


> It looks fast, but tough to really judge until full drives and multiple recordings.
> 
> HTML5 platform?


HTML 5 as in no longer Flash, that's HUGE and will do wonders for the performance and frequency of app updates. Now we get updates as fast as YouTube and Netflix can pump them out.


----------



## bradleys

- HTML 5 app platform
- wifi capable
- stream outside the home network (coming)


----------



## MeInDallas

I'll have to say it looks like a Premiere box with a new faceplate on it, but it does look nice. I do like the new remote as well, it looks a bit shorter and fatter. Someone needs to buy one now and tell us all about it


----------



## innocentfreak

Philmatic said:


> HTML 5 as in no longer Flash, that's HUGE and will do wonders for the performance and frequency of app updates. Now we get updates as fast as YouTube and Netflix can pump them out.


I think that is just the apps though. Hopefully not, but will need to wait probably for answers on that.


----------



## Philmatic

Yeah, I mentioned that in my first post, I'm pretty sure it's just the apps as well. Still, will go a long ways to speed things up, both in performance and update frequency. Netflix and YouTube can auto update on the fly without involving TiVo at all.


----------



## bradleys

New thread for Roamio conversation

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=507596


----------



## rothsss

Has anybody managed to order lifetime for less than $499.99?


----------



## innocentfreak

No the Account page is still down. You get a 404 if you click My Account. Wait until that page is up.


----------



## rothsss

innocentfreak said:


> No the Account page is still down. You get a 404 if you click My Account. Wait until that page is up.


Thanks.


----------



## lpwcomp

Definitely no built-in MOCA on the 4 tuner model. Plus, I'm a bit peeved by this in the FAQ:



> Many cable companies require that a technician come to your home to install the card, but some allow subscribers to install the cards themselves. Call your cable company and inquire about their CableCARD installation policy.


Have the FCC regulations on CableCARD self-install been rescinded?


----------



## bradleys

lpwcomp said:


> Definitely no built-in MOCA on the 4 tuner model. Plus, I'm a bit peeved by this in the FAQ:
> 
> Have the FCC regulations on CableCARD self-install been rescinded?


Just TiVo handing out friendly advice in their FAQ's. Supposed too, blah, blah - this is easier and correct.


----------



## lpwcomp

bradleys said:


> Just TiVo handing out friendly advice in their FAQ's. Supposed too, blah, blah - this is easier and correct.


If the FCC regulations _*are*_ still in affect, then it is certainly _*not* _ correct and TiVo is enabling some cable operators to rip people off. As of November 2011, the regulations not only require _*all*_ cable operators to allow self-install of CableCARDs, they _*must*_ explicitly inform customers of this option. The only exception to this rule is "...if your equipment manufacturer or vendor does not provide you with instructions on how to install a CableCARD and offer a toll-free telephone number for product support."


----------



## Dan203

I thought the rule was that they are required to offer self installs of CableCARDs if they offer self installs of any other equipment. If they don't offer any self installs then I think they are still allowed to require a truck roll. Also I think there are still a few small cable companies with exemptions. TiVo is likely just covering their bases.


----------



## MeInDallas

Did anyone see this today? Does it have any legs?

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Cable-Industry-Tries-to-Kill-the-CableCARD-for-Good-125440

Sounds like they are really lobbying hard to get rid of them.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/08/tivo-media-center-pc-makers-alarmed-by-cablecard-cutting-bill/


----------



## nooneuknow

Dan203 said:


> I thought the rule was that they are required to offer self installs of CableCARDs if they offer self installs of any other equipment. If they don't offer any self installs then I think they are still allowed to require a truck roll. Also I think there are still a few small cable companies with exemptions. TiVo is likely just covering their bases.


That's exactly how I remember it being, and have not run across any chatter about it being changed (yet).

The cableco's are fighting the integration ban (requiring that they don't integrate the cablecard functions as part of the unit, in a non-removable way). If there should come a ruling on the matter, and they accidentally word something wrong, or too loosely, then a loophole might give the cableco's a way to make it more like it used to be (good for them, bad for us).


----------



## b_scott

aaronwt said:


> Crap!!!! $600?!?!?
> 
> Is the only difference between the Plus and the Pro the 3TB drive? if so I hope someone figures out how to expand it quickly. Because if they are the same, I'm not paying $200 for an extra 2TB. Not when I just picked up several 3TB drives for $110 each. And the last 2TB drive I picked up earlier this Summer was only $70.


there's an eSata port, so that's instant expansion.


----------



## wco81

Any reason why they use eSata?

I know Thunderbolt would be too expensive but what about USB 3? Drives are dirt cheap.


----------



## P42

Because eSATA is just an *e*xternal SATA connection. They don't need to add any additional drivers etc to the code. For USB3 they would need to add drivers for each USB3 chipset they wanted/needed to support.


----------



## wco81

Hmm, why is that not a problem for computers and now even some phones and tablets with USB ports?

You can buy any USB drive at Best Buy and plug it into a USB port and it just works.

I can understand that USB 2 probably wasn't fast enough for video but USB 3? Or maybe the bus has the potential speed to support it but there's overhead or reliability concerns when it comes to sustaining some minimal threshold.


----------



## jrtroo

Asked and answered, see post 948. Its just plain easier and cheaper.


----------



## ilovedvrs

http://www.itworld.com/hardware/98987/usb-30-vs-esata-is-faster-better

"Now, eSATA can handle 300 MBps (MegaBytes per second) and USB 3.0 can wheel and deal up to 625 MBps."

"In both cases the real world results were quite a bit slower than their theoretical bests. With reads, my USB (3) drive averaged 90 MBps, while the eSATA drive came in at 75 MBps. When it came to writing to the disk eSATA still processed data at 75 MBps while the USB drive dropped to 62 MBps."


----------



## aaronwt

b_scott said:


> there's an eSata port, so that's instant expansion.


I've never used an external hard drive with a TiVo since that is another point of failure. Plus with the external drive, if it goes belly up you lose all your recordings, from both the internal and external drive. Unless things are different for the Roamio boxes.

That is one feature where the cable companies seem to have done a better job. Since many of them will not lose the recordings on the internal drive if the external one goes belly up.
I've always opted for a larger internal drive than using an external drive to increase storage.

Although I really need a minimum of 3TB of storage. So I either need to be able to expand the Plus Roamio or I have to bite the bullet and just pick up a Pro Roamio.


----------



## Philmatic

wco81 said:


> Hmm, why is that not a problem for computers and now even some phones and tablets with USB ports?
> 
> You can buy any USB drive at Best Buy and plug it into a USB port and it just works.
> 
> I can understand that USB 2 probably wasn't fast enough for video but USB 3? Or maybe the bus has the potential speed to support it but there's overhead or reliability concerns when it comes to sustaining some minimal threshold.


USB 2.0 is plenty fast for TiVo recording.

The reason eSATA was chosen was for technical reasons, it provides direct communication to the hard drive which is required for security and encryption. They can possibly provide this over USB 3.0, but why? There is absolutely no benefit to using USB 3.0 and eSATA already supports what they need and is more efficient.


----------



## b_scott

Philmatic said:


> USB 2.0 is plenty fast for TiVo recording.
> 
> The reason eSATA was chosen was for technical reasons, it provides direct communication to the hard drive which is required for security and encryption. They can possibly provide this over USB 3.0, but why? There is absolutely no benefit to using USB 3.0 and eSATA already supports what they need and is more efficient.


USB 3.0 = a connection that doesn't easily just fall out of the connector. I hate eSata for that.


----------



## atmuscarella

Philmatic said:


> USB 2.0 is plenty fast for TiVo recording.
> 
> The reason eSATA was chosen was for technical reasons, it provides direct communication to the hard drive which is required for security and encryption. They can possibly provide this over USB 3.0, but why? There is absolutely no benefit to using USB 3.0 and eSATA already supports what they need and is more efficient.





b_scott said:


> USB 3.0 = a connection that doesn't easily just fall out of the connector. I hate eSata for that.


I think for many people the issue isn't really eSata vs USB but more the way TiVo handles exterior storage. At least that is the issue I have, I don't want my exterior storage married to my internal hard drive. I just want it to be an optional storage location and I want to be able to fill as many exterior drives as I want just by plugging them in and moving shows onto them.


----------



## rainwater

atmuscarella said:


> I think for many people the issue isn't really eSata vs USB but more the way TiVo handles exterior storage. At least that is the issue I have, I don't want my exterior storage married to my internal hard drive. I just want it to be an optional storage location and I want to be able to fill as many exterior drives as I want just by plugging them in and moving shows onto them.


Cablelabs will not allow that. The limitation is not TiVo's fault.


----------



## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> I thought the rule was that they are required to offer self installs of CableCARDs if they offer self installs of any other equipment. If they don't offer any self installs then I think they are still allowed to require a truck roll. Also I think there are still a few small cable companies with exemptions. TiVo is likely just covering their bases.


That was the rule that went into affect in August 2011. It became applicable to _*all*_ cable operators in November 2011.

From the FCC web site (empassis mine):


> Self-install your CableCARD. Effective August 8, 2011, cable operators must allow self-installation of CableCARDs if they allow self-installation of other equipment, such as digital boxes or cable modems. *By November 1, 2011, all cable operators must allow self-installation of CableCARDs. * Your operator may decline your request for self-installation if your equipment manufacturer or vendor does not provide you with instructions on how to install a CableCARD and offer a toll-free telephone number for product support. FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(1).


----------



## b_scott

rainwater said:


> Cablelabs will not allow that. The limitation is not TiVo's fault.


also, it's no different than running some drives in a RAID0 config in a PC. You can't just remove one.


----------



## wco81

If you fill up drives with recordings and you for some reason drop cable, are you still able to view the recordings without a Cable Card?


----------



## aaronwt

wco81 said:


> If you fill up drives with recordings and you for some reason drop cable, are you still able to view the recordings without a Cable Card?


Yes. At least i could with my Premiere boxes.


----------



## DaveDFW

wco81 said:


> If you fill up drives with recordings and you for some reason drop cable, are you still able to view the recordings without a Cable Card?


A CableCard's only functions are to provide a channel map and decrypt a broadcast video stream for viewing or recording. Once the video has been recorded on your Tivo, a CableCard is not needed for playback.


----------



## tivogurl

Weaknees has started selling Roamios this morning, but has no drive upgrade options listed yet.


----------



## Aero 1

4-Tuner Roamio Start Here Poster:

http://support.tivo.com/ci/fattach/get/81846/1376982741/redirect/1

Roamio Plus/Pro Start Here Poster:

http://support.tivo.com/ci/fattach/get/81847/1376983511/redirect/1


----------



## tivogurl

Is anybody getting a Pro rather than a Plus? What motivated you to do so? I like the extra storage, but I greatly dislike $/GB of the upgrade.


----------



## innocentfreak

Unless someone figures out drive upgrades before I buy, it will most likely be the Pro. I can't see going to 1TB for 6 tuners.


----------



## b_scott

450 hours? I hate when I have over 10 shows to watch on my Tivo. The Plus would be just fine for me and then some.


----------



## trip1eX

I would do the PLus plus external or future internal hd upgrade. 1 TB a bit low for family and I. But not paying $200 for 2 extra TBs either.


----------



## Dan203

I can't decide if I need 3TB or not. my current Elite is about 50% full and has a 2TB drive, so it would seem that 1TB is right about my limit. But I've had times when it's been up in the 60s so I really could use more space. But $200 extra for the upgrade is a bit steep.


----------



## dswallow

I've never been higher than 32% usage on my XL4. Generally I always try to watch enough to get below 30% if it's ever above that level, and honestly I could drop episodes from at least 2 series I probably won't end up watching at all, but I haven't really made that decision yet, so that "30%" is artificially higher than it really needs to be. I chose the Pro. It's nice not getting even close to the limit, no matter what.

It's always a pain to upgrade later, especially if there's any number of accumulated recordings left to watch, and after having tried the WD extenders on my Series 3's originally, I'll never go with external drive solutions on TiVo receivers again.


----------



## Dan203

At one point I was at like 92% on mine, but I had shows were I had 2+ seasons I had never watched. I finally deleted a bunch of those and got down to about 60%. I like to watch things in blocks, so I tend to build up shows like this. I also like to record movies on a whim even if I never end up watching them. If I only had 1TB I'd have to be much more careful about doing that. With 3TB I could do it even more and never worry about it again.


----------



## lpwcomp

If I replaced my 3 2-tuner TiVos(1 THD w/1TB drive, 2 Premieres w/stock 320GB drives) 1TB would not be enough while 3TB would probably be OK. 2TB might even be sufficient. I would love to use my PC as extra storage but for a number of reasons, the prime one being the CC problem, that is not a viable option.


----------



## bareyb

lpwcomp said:


> If I replaced my 3 2-tuner TiVos(1 THD w/1TB drive, 2 Premieres w/stock 320GB drives) 1TB would not be enough while 3TB would probably be OK. 2TB might even be sufficient. I would love to use my PC as extra storage but for a number of reasons, the prime one being the CC problem, that is not a viable option.


You can offload shows to your PC with PyTiVo for archiving. I do that with a lot of Sporting Events that I may want to see again some day, but don't want them taking up space on my TiVo.


----------



## Dan203

But if your cable company protects all it's channels via CCI bit then that's not an option. Almost all Time Warner and a few Cox and Comcast areas do that. The only things they leave unprotected are the broadcast channels because they are not allowed to protect those by law.


----------



## bareyb

Dan203 said:


> But if your cable company protects all it's channels via CCI bit then that's not an option. Almost all Time Warner and a few Cox and Comcast areas do that. The only things they leave unprotected are the broadcast channels because they are not allowed to protect those by law.


Ah. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. Comcast blocks _some_ transfers in my area, but not most. Usually only PPV's or Pay Channels like HBO.


----------



## Dan203

We use to be wide open here. I could transfer anything, even premium channels. Then about a year ago they switched to blocking just the Premium channels. Hopefully they don't take a queue from TW and start blocking them all or TTG will become completely useless to me.


----------



## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> I thought the rule was that they are required to offer self installs of CableCARDs if they offer self installs of any other equipment. If they don't offer any self installs then I think they are still allowed to require a truck roll. Also I think there are still a few small cable companies with exemptions. TiVo is likely just covering their bases.





Dan203 said:


> But if your cable company protects all it's channels via CCI bit then that's not an option. Almost all Time Warner and a few Cox and Comcast areas do that. The only things they leave unprotected are the broadcast channels because they are not allowed to protect those by law.


The CC problem I was referring to is "Closed Captions", not "Copy Control".


----------



## bareyb

Dan203 said:


> We use to be wide open here. I could transfer anything, even premium channels. Then about a year ago they switched to blocking just the Premium channels. Hopefully they don't take a queue from TW and start blocking them all or TTG will become completely useless to me.


I don't understand why TW is blocking _everything_ anyway. I just figured they didn't know how to implement it correctly and took the easier route of just blocking everything. Have they ever said why? That would make MRV pretty much useless too.


----------



## Dan203

lpwcomp said:


> The CC problem I was referring to is "Closed Captions", not "Copy Control".


What happens with the closed captions?



bareyb said:


> I don't understand why TW is blocking _everything_ anyway. I just figured they didn't know how to implement it correctly and took the easier route of just blocking everything. Have they ever said why? That would make MRV pretty much useless too.


They wont admit it but I think they do it on purpose to hinder TiVos and CableCARD usage in general. It's no secret they don't like CableCARDs and do the bare minimum required to support them. By blocking all the channels like this they render one of the benefits of TiVo useless and lessen it's appeal.


----------



## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> What happens with the closed captions?


When a recording is downloaded to a Premiere, even if it is a .tivo file originally recorded on that TiVo, the closed captions do not display.


----------



## morac

lpwcomp said:


> When a recording is downloaded to a Premiere, even if it is a .tivo file originally recorded on that TiVo, the closed captions do not display.


If I recall correctly, that's only the case for PS files. TS files (i.e. fast transfer) do keep the close captions.


----------



## lpwcomp

morac said:


> If I recall correctly, that's only the case for PS files. TS files (i.e. fast transfer) do keep the close captions.


Not an option for me. Still running Win2K. Hope to change that later this year.


----------



## Dan203

lpwcomp said:


> Not an option for me. Still running Win2K. Hope to change that later this year.


Gonna jump up to XP? 

In all seriousness... why? Are you still using the 14 year old PC it came on? I don't even understand why some people insist on keeping XP. Still running Win2K seems outright ridiculous. Almost nothing supports Win2K any more.


----------



## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> Gonna jump up to XP?
> 
> In all seriousness... why? Are you still using the 14 year old PC it came on? I don't even understand why some people insist on keeping XP. Still running Win2K seems outright ridiculous. Almost nothing supports Win2K any more.


It costs money to upgrade. At this point, it doesn't make sense to lay out the money to upograde the O/S on this old h/w. Probably will just buy a whole new system. But anything has to wait until at least October. I got my last pension payment Aug. 1 and don't get first SS payment until October 23.


----------



## Dan203

I don't know what your financial situation is. I assumed people who own TiVos, and are considering buying a new one, have enough money for basic luxuries, but maybe that was a poor assumption. However you should really consider upgrading your PC before upgrading your TiVo. Even a cheap, $300, PC will run circles around something you bought 14 years ago. Not to mention Win2K is a HUGE security risk. It hasn't been updated in like 3 years now. There are bound to be a million exploits out there by now.


----------



## nooneuknow

innocentfreak said:


> Unless someone figures out drive upgrades before I buy, it will most likely be the Pro. I can't see going to 1TB for 6 tuners.


Same here (except I'm not rushing to buy any at all). It's not like they've pitched some deal for those of us that have been customers for nearly as long as they've been around, that compels us to upgrade or miss-out.

Even if I hear about somebody upgrading them successfully, remember the fiasco by one of the big web-store upgrade sites selling a 4TB (2x2TB) Premiere upgrade that they had to recall? I'll give any upgrade option some time to be tested before I take a leap of faith.


----------



## b_scott

Dan203 said:


> I don't know what your financial situation is. I assumed people who own TiVos, and are considering buying a new one, have enough money for basic luxuries, but maybe that was a poor assumption. However you should really consider upgrading your PC before upgrading your TiVo. Even a cheap, $300, PC will run circles around something you bought 14 years ago. Not to mention Win2K is a HUGE security risk. It hasn't been updated in like 3 years now. There are bound to be a million exploits out there by now.


Same here. If you can't afford an OS update in 14 years then seems odd you even be considering expensive TiVo stuff. But then, it's not really my business.


----------



## dswallow

Dan203 said:


> I don't know what your financial situation is. I assumed people who own TiVos, and are considering buying a new one, have enough money for basic luxuries, but maybe that was a poor assumption. However you should really consider upgrading your PC before upgrading your TiVo. Even a cheap, $300, PC will run circles around something you bought 14 years ago. Not to mention Win2K is a HUGE security risk. It hasn't been updated in like 3 years now. There are bound to be a million exploits out there by now.


You're assuming that his 14-year-old computer is connected to the internet.


----------



## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> I don't know what your financial situation is. I assumed people who own TiVos, and are considering buying a new one, have enough money for basic luxuries, but maybe that was a poor assumption. However you should really consider upgrading your PC before upgrading your TiVo. Even a cheap, $300, PC will run circles around something you bought 14 years ago. Not to mention Win2K is a HUGE security risk. It hasn't been updated in like 3 years now. There are bound to be a million exploits out there by now.


Don't attempt to "teach your Grandma to suck eggs". As I said, buying a whole new system is exactly what I plan to do.

The CPU and O/S are hand-me-downs but are not 14-years old. The mobo and memory are about 2 y/o. And drives have been added/replaced.

I might have been able to upgrade the O/S earlier this year using an OEM version that a friend had lying around but I had just found out that I would have this nearly 3-month gap in payments. You "qualify" for SS the month _after_ the relevant b/d (I turn 62 tomorrow). You don't actually get a payment until the month after that and in my case, payments will be on the 4th Wednesday. So I've been having to try and save enough money to get me through the transition. I have been living on a 7-year (for max cash flow), early retirement(@55) pension I earned for 12-years of work as an O/S (NOS,NOS/BE, and NOS/VE) analyst at Martin-Marietta Data Systems (1979-1991).

I'm not actually sure if I will getting a new TiVo or not, but if I did, it could save me money in the long run by reducing the number of those stupid ADO fees I have to pay Comcast.

As far as using TS vs. PS for transfers, there are other reasons I don't want to do that. The fact that I _*do*_ get captions if I transfer it to and watch it on my THD indicates (to me at least) that TiVo has a problem which they damn well should fix.

Finally, as a couple of you said, it _*is*_ none of your business how I choose to spend my limited disposable income. I only posted those details to explain why things are as they are, not to seek advise and the criticism, explicit and implicit, is both unwelcome and unwarranted.


----------



## lpwcomp

dswallow said:


> You're assuming that his 14-year-old computer is connected to the internet.


How droll.


----------



## Aero 1

this reminds me of the guy on this board, i cant remember his name, that in one thread he was complaining how poor he is and he cant afford doctors or what not, but then in numerous other threads, he buys cell phones, juicers, beds and what not. i remember his avi, guy with a beard who i think lives in the woods.


----------



## lpwcomp

Aero 1 said:


> this reminds me of the guy on this board, i cant remember his name, that in one thread he was complaining how poor he is and he cant afford doctors or what not, but then in numerous other threads, he buys cell phones, juicers, beds and what not. i remember his avi, guy with a beard who i think lives in the woods.


----------



## innocentfreak

Best Buy is now allowing you to add to cart the Plus model for those interested. It still shows backordered and set to ship 1-2 weeks. I would guess they should have stock soon though so it probably won't be that long. 

Amazon is showing back in stock 8/22 or tomorrow.


----------



## tatergator1

innocentfreak said:


> Amazon is showing back in stock 8/22 or tomorrow.


To clarify, those will be DVR's sold by Weaknees, not Amazon. If you're wanting to take advantage of Prime shipping, Amazon still shows 1-3 weeks until more stock arrives.


----------



## aaronwt

tatergator1 said:


> To clarify, those will be DVR's sold by Weaknees, not Amazon. If you're wanting to take advantage of Prime shipping, Amazon still shows 1-3 weeks until more stock arrives.


And you can get a discount by ordering directly from Weaknees instead of through Amazon with the codes someone mentioned.


----------



## lessd

aaronwt said:


> And you can get a discount by ordering directly from Weaknees instead of through Amazon with the codes someone mentioned.


I did and the TR-6 shipped tonight, with $25 off and no tax.

My abbreviation for the new Roamio TiVos

Roamio basic with 4 tuners *TR-4*

Roamio Plus with 6 tuners and a 1Tb drive* TR-6*

Roamio Pro with 6 tuners and a 3Tb drive *TR-6P*


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> Crap!!!! $600?!?!?
> 
> Is the only difference between the Plus and the Pro the 3TB drive? if so I hope someone figures out how to expand it quickly. Because if they are the same, I'm not paying $200 for an extra 2TB. Not when I just picked up several 3TB drives for $110 each. And the last 2TB drive I picked up earlier this Summer was only $70.


Yeah, and once you add service to it so it, you know, actually works, it's $1100!!!! The Premiere XL4 was $900, this is getting kind of insane, even though it looks like it's finally the box that the Premiere should have been.

I'm going to be jealous of this when I go back downstairs and watch TV in the fall. Right now, I've only been using the Minis in the kitchen and my room, and they are zippy.



MScottC said:


> I'm very disappointed that the larger units don't do OTA. That is really what I was waiting for. And if the smallest unit can't take a 1 TB drive, I'm really going to be annoyed. I simply wanted a 6 tuner model that allowed me the option of dropping cable. This bites.


It's tough to see the use case for 6 tuners if you basically only have 5 channels, 4 of which are terrible. Of course you can put a 1TB in there. Even if it's a thin 2.5" drive (unlikely), those are coming soon in 1.5TB from HGST (I'm getting one for the storage drive on my MBP to complement my new 500GB Samsung 840 series SSD).


----------



## Bigg

And for those of you hemming and hawing over space, just remember you can NEVER have too much space! Even if you're good about DVR management, you'll run into times like the Olympics where you'll want to suck down hundreds upon hundreds of hours of HD video, 3-4 channels at a time.


----------



## steve614

Bigg said:


> It's tough to see the use case for 6 tuners if you basically only have 5 channels, 4 of which are terrible.



You must be stuck in time with analog OTA.

Now that OTA has gone digital, there are a lot more channels. I grant you that most of them are crap and/or Spanish oriented, but it's not just the big 3 any longer.


----------



## tomhorsley

And if you arrange some copper wires in a special pattern and connect them to your TV, you can usually get a lot more channels OTA, like this:

http://home.comcast.net/~tomhorsley/hardware/antenna/antenna.html


----------



## Bigg

steve614 said:


> You must be stuck in time with analog OTA.
> 
> Now that OTA has gone digital, there are a lot more channels. I grant you that most of them are crap and/or Spanish oriented, but it's not just the big 3 any longer.


There's the big 4 and PBS. There are a couple of actual channels that are junk, and then the rest is all subchannels, which are really junk, and are horrible quality SD, since they're overcompressed. I wish subchannels would die so that we could go back to the 19mbps feeds!


----------



## b_scott

Bigg said:


> And for those of you hemming and hawing over space, just remember you can NEVER have too much space! Even if you're good about DVR management, you'll run into times like the Olympics where you'll want to suck down hundreds upon hundreds of hours of HD video, 3-4 channels at a time.


lol no i won't.


----------



## Bigg

b_scott said:


> lol no i won't.


So you don't bother watching the Olympics? Why do you even have a TiVo? Just go back in your dark little corner where you came from.


----------



## HarperVision

Wow so the only reason to own a TiVo now is to watch and record the Olympics?........who knew!!!


----------



## dswallow

Bigg said:


> So you don't bother watching the Olympics? Why do you even have a TiVo? Just go back in your dark little corner where you came from.


I suspect there's gonna be a whole lot of people who won't watch or record the Olympics in Russia next year.


----------



## Dan203

I don't really watch sports of any kind. I still find plenty of use for my TiVo.


----------



## nooneuknow

HarperVision said:


> Wow so the only reason to own a TiVo now is to watch and record the Olympics?........who knew!!!


I think there are a few who won't admit to it, but do watch the figure skating to watch for "wardrobe malfunctions" or failure of wardrobe to keep some female bits contained/covered. I suppose some of those won't record it, but will wait for the YouTube out-takes.


----------



## tomhorsley

I used to try and watch the olympics, but the only thing I really wanted to see was events like downhill racing and ski jumping. The broadcasters know this, so they subject you to interminable blather about other events and up close and personal interviews with the 2nd cousin of the mother of one of the figure skater's costume designers, and after every one of these segments they end with "coming up, downhill racing". Once I finally figured out that "coming up" is TV broadcaster speak for "when hell freezes over", I totally abandoned trying to watch olympics.


----------



## crxssi

Dan203 said:


> I don't really watch sports of any kind. I still find plenty of use for my TiVo.


You are not alone. I don't watch any sports of any type. But there is a lot of other stuff I don't watch, also. It is amazing how little on cable actually interests me.


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## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> I don't really watch sports of any kind. I still find plenty of use for my TiVo.


+1


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## series5orpremier

The Olympics were exciting in the 60s and 70s but since then the training has become so systematic that they're effectively professionals, some already paid handsomely or performing for big contracts. The athletes are less relatable and less sympathetic characters while the networks spend more time on filler and manufactured drama like every other reality show. No thanks.

With the Cold War there was also a serious political subtext to the whole thing but now it's like who cares.


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## wco81

I watch a lot of sports but live, not recorded.

But have no problems filling up DVRs with non-sports content.


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## brianric

Dan203 said:


> I don't really watch sports of any kind. I still find plenty of use for my TiVo.


Ditto. :up::up::up:


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## TheWizz

I was going to order my Roamio Pro and Minis from Amazon.com, however, I live in Houston Texas area and they charge sales tax anyway and Amazon showed they weren't ready to ship for a few days, so... I just ordered direct from Tivo for the "free" shipping. I ordered them on a Thursday afternoon and they arrived at my door the next day! I believe Tivo has a distro point in the DFW area. Overnight for free isn't bad.


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## Bigg

dswallow said:


> I suspect there's gonna be a whole lot of people who won't watch or record the Olympics in Russia next year.


Actually that's true. It's an unfortunate situation that it's in a country with no regards for human rights...



tomhorsley said:


> I used to try and watch the olympics, but the only thing I really wanted to see was events like downhill racing and ski jumping. The broadcasters know this, so they subject you to interminable blather about other events and up close and personal interviews with the 2nd cousin of the mother of one of the figure skater's costume designers, and after every one of these segments they end with "coming up, downhill racing". Once I finally figured out that "coming up" is TV broadcaster speak for "when hell freezes over", I totally abandoned trying to watch olympics.


You do realize this is the TiVo forum, right? You can record and FF the junk and watch pieces 3+ hours of video in 30 minutes or less. That's why TiVo is so great for the Olympics. Watch a bit here and there, and FF the rest.

If you don't watch the Olympics, don't bother with cable. You clearly don't like TV at all!


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## tomhorsley

Bigg said:


> You do realize this is the TiVo forum, right? You can record and FF the junk


You do realize it would take hours just to FF past the junk to the one thing you want to see that happened at some random time during the broadcast?


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## wco81

tomhorsley said:


> You do realize it would take hours just to FF past the junk to the one thing you want to see that happened at some random time during the broadcast?


You know what the next advance in DVRs would be?

Index recordings so that you can skip to specific points. If there's some way for broadcasts to send signals or data corresponding to specific time indices.

Of course they don't like that you can already skip commercials so the networks won't cooperate. But if they allowed the community to create and share indices that you can download and use when playing back recordings.

The indices wouldn't be available when the show first airs. But for on demand recordings or perhaps some East Coast viewer creates indices for some show and a West Coast viewer loads that index while viewing.

Even better, a lot of DVR viewers don't see recordings for a day or two so many could benefit.

Even better, for the service fees that Tivo collects, they could be making the indexes and have software that detects what recordings you have and download the index for that show.


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## bareyb

tomhorsley said:


> You do realize it would take hours just to FF past the junk to the one thing you want to see that happened at some random time during the broadcast?


I usually use "skip to tick" and go in 15 minute intervals. You can narrow it down pretty quickly that way.


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## zalusky

wco81 said:


> You know what the next advance in DVRs would be?
> 
> Index recordings so that you can skip to specific points. If there's some way for broadcasts to send signals or data corresponding to specific time indices.
> 
> Of course they don't like that you can already skip commercials so the networks won't cooperate. But if they allowed the community to create and share indices that you can download and use when playing back recordings.
> 
> The indices wouldn't be available when the show first airs. But for on demand recordings or perhaps some East Coast viewer creates indices for some show and a West Coast viewer loads that index while viewing.
> 
> Even better, a lot of DVR viewers don't see recordings for a day or two so many could benefit.
> 
> Even better, for the service fees that Tivo collects, they could be making the indexes and have software that detects what recordings you have and download the index for that show.


Better yet crowd based ticks. Where your friends can send you tick marks. For example you could skip directly to Miley on the VMAs.

In this forum we are constantly referring to events on shows. It would be cool to publish our favorite timestamps and have Tivo automatically merge them into recordings when playing.

And lets add Social OnDemand folders to that as well.


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## b_scott

Bigg said:


> So you don't bother watching the Olympics? Why do you even have a TiVo? Just go back in your dark little corner where you came from.


huh? Some people don't care about the Olympics. Especially this year with the Russians being bigots.

Is the Olympics the only reason you have one? Surely you watch other shows.



Bigg said:


> If you don't watch the Olympics, don't bother with cable. You clearly don't like TV at all!


OK now I know you're trolling.


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## Jonathan_S

bareyb said:


> I usually use "skip to tick" and go in 15 minute intervals. You can narrow it down pretty quickly that way.


One issue with doing that for Olymic coverage is that as recordings get longer the tick interval increases.

I think by the time you get to a 9 hour long olympics recording the tick interval is up to 45 minutes apart. That makes it much easier to accidently skip right past something you're interested in. (If it's an event that they keep cutting to for short streches)


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## Bigg

tomhorsley said:


> You do realize it would take hours just to FF past the junk to the one thing you want to see that happened at some random time during the broadcast?


If you're good with the Peanut, you can move through Olympics pretty quick.

EDIT: Combine posts.



b_scott said:


> huh? Some people don't care about the Olympics. Especially this year with the Russians being bigots.
> 
> Is the Olympics the only reason you have one? Surely you watch other shows.
> 
> OK now I know you're trolling.


Of course I watch other shows. But the Olympics are something basically everyone watches. TiVo just makes them a million times better.

I'm not sure that boycotting the Olympics is going to do anything about the Russians and their disregard for human rights. The IOC should ban Russian Olympians from their own Olympics until Russia gets their act together and treats all of their citizens as humans.

I'm not trolling. The Olympics are like the basics.


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## dswallow

Bigg said:


> But the Olympics are something basically everyone watches.


I think that's a basic fallacy. A lot of people might watch some part of them. But I think that's about as far as you can take a general statement.

There've been far more Olympic games in my lifetime, even than in my adult lifetime, that I've not watched at all (ignoring newscasts, commercials, etc) than there have been Olympic games that I've watched some part of. And I don't think there was a single Olympic games that I watched any sort of appreciable number of hours until the last summer Olympics which was available in 3D, and even then, maybe I watched 4 to 5 hours total, including opening ceremonies, some of which I fast forwarded over, too.

Yes, that's anecdotal. But at least among those I am around in person, not at all uncommon, thus I'm relatively comfortable making that as a generalization.


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## brianric

Bigg said:


> Of course I watch other shows. But the Olympics are something basically everyone watches.


Not everyone. Same goes for the Superbowl unless New England is playing.


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## innocentfreak

Bigg said:


> Of course I watch other shows. But the Olympics are something basically everyone watches. TiVo just makes them a million times better.


Not here. MMA is about the only sport I can tolerate.


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## aaronwt

What is MMA?


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## SullyND

aaronwt said:


> What is MMA?


Mixed Martial Arts.

I don't think I've watched more than 30 minutes of the Olympics cumulative in my life.


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## gigaguy

wco81 said:


> You know what the next advance in DVRs would be?
> Index recordings so that you can skip to specific points.


Hello TiVonians. newbie browser, shopping my first Tivo. 
My much favored Sony DHG-HDD500s (from 2005?) had index marking that I loved, you could even name each index mark, worked great for long programs and it's smooth customizable playback doesn't seem to have been bested. I'm still using one of my now guide-crippled Sonys ...but I digress. 
I need a new DVR. TiVo may be next, and anything to keep from renting a box from TWC. glad this forum is here.


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## mattack

lpwcomp said:


> Not an option for me. Still running Win2K. Hope to change that later this year.


Wait, are you claiming you can download tivo files on your Win2K system but NOT convert them between TS & PS on the same system?

(I haven't done the conversion yet either.. I'm on OS X.. I'd like to keep the closed captions too.)


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## lpwcomp

mattack said:


> Wait, are you claiming you can download tivo files on your Win2K system but NOT convert them between TS & PS on the same system?
> 
> (I haven't done the conversion yet either.. I'm on OS X.. I'd like to keep the closed captions too.)


The problem is that the old version of ffmpeg that I have to run on Win2k doesn't appear to support transferring TS files back to the TiVo.

I'm not sure what conversion you are talking about. My reading of the situation is that in order to have the captions there on a Premiere, recordings must be xferred in both directions in TS format.

It's possible that it has been fixed on the R5's and will be fixed on the Premieres.


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## crxssi

brianric said:


> Not everyone. Same goes for the Superbowl


Exactly.

I have *zero* interest in watching *any* sports, that includes the Olympics and the superbowl of tackleball.


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## HarperVision

crxssi said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I have *zero* interest in watching *any* sports, that includes the Olympics and the superbowl of tackleball.


Blasphemer!!!


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## bareyb

Not even _tackleball__?_


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## crxssi

bareyb said:


> Not even _tackleball__?_


Well, it has almost nothing to do with feet. That would be soccer.

So it is better tackleball, throwball, or carryball.


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## Bigg

Well, the .00001% of the US population who doesn't watch the Olympics has come out of the woodwork here. The rest of us will enjoy them thanks to TiVo's ability to store and retrieve tons of broadcasts quickly and easily.


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## Dan203

According to Neilson only 70% of Americans watch at least part of the Olympics in 2012. So we're the 30% not the .00001%


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## astrohip

Dan203 said:


> According to Neilson only 70% of Americans watch at least part of the Olympics in 2012. So we're the 30% not the .00001%


And a WAG that of those 70%, many just watch a leetle bit. Like me. So 30% don't watch at all, maybe 30% watch just a tad, maybe 30-40% watch more.

Huge numbers, but not all of us.


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## dswallow

I'd watch a lot more if they had locker room coverage at the Olympics. But then, there's probably lots of sports I'd watch if they did that, not just the Olympics.


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## Dan203

dswallow said:


> I'd watch a lot more if they had locker room coverage at the Olympics. But then, there's probably lots of sports I'd watch if they did that, not just the Olympics.


LOL


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## wldlif7

Hey all, looking for some suggestions/input. 
I've been reading about the new Roamio and trying decide on the best setup so I can view recordings on 2 different tv's in separate rooms from a base unit. The only constraint is I have to have OTA capabilities on both TV's since I do not have cable or satellite capabilities. 

I currently have a premier and a series 2 (not using though) actually want to get rid of. From what I've read I do not believe a mini can be used with a std premier since it only has 2 tuners. Would my best bet be to buy a std Roamio and use as my main unit and put the premier on my second TV or dump all I have and buy the the Roamio and a mini? I believe I only save $4/mo having a mini over the premier, but over time I would probably be money ahead since I would do the lifetime on the mini. 

Am I missing some advantages or disadvantages to one config over the other?

Any input is appreciated


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## morac

wldlif7 said:


> Hey all, looking for some suggestions/input.
> I've been reading about the new Roamio and trying decide on the best setup so I can view recordings on 2 different tv's in separate rooms from a base unit. The only constraint is I have to have OTA capabilities on both TV's since I do not have cable or satellite capabilities.
> 
> I currently have a premier and a series 2 (not using though) actually want to get rid of. From what I've read I do not believe a mini can be used with a std premier since it only has 2 tuners. Would my best bet be to buy a std Roamio and use as my main unit and put the premier on my second TV or dump all I have and buy the the Roamio and a mini? I believe I only save $4/mo having a mini over the premier, but over time I would probably be money ahead since I would do the lifetime on the mini.
> 
> Am I missing some advantages or disadvantages to one config over the other?
> 
> Any input is appreciated


If your Premiere does not have lifetime service on it, it probably makes sense to get a Roamio and a Mini. If you move the monthly fee from the Premiere over to the Roamio, the costs will be $200 for the Roamio and $249 for the Mini with lifetime for a total of $449. If you buy just the Roamio and keep the Premiere, the cost will be $200 plus whatever the monthly fee is $15 (or $13 for MSD) for the Roamio. As such the Mini would pay for itself in 17 (or $20 with MSD) months. You could buy the Roamio with lifetime service for $600 (or $500 with MSD), but that would end up costing more.

The downsides:
1. The Mini won't be able to stream live TV if the Roamio is recording on all 4 tuners. Previously recorded programs can be streamed though. 
2. The Roamio is OTA or cable, not both like the Premiere, but if you never plan to get cable or never plan to use both at the same time that's not an issue. 
3. The Mini has no user storage so thing likes Amazon VOD and Web Video downloads won't work.

If none of the downsides are a problem, it makes sense.


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## wldlif7

Thanks for the input morac!!

I'll more than likely dump what I have and buy new. Put the premier in the closet and take the series 2 to the local charity and donate. 

Is there any advantage of buying the Roamio and mini from tivo versus best buy? Best buy has a lot less expensive extended warranty than tivo and its better from what I read. 

Any input is appreciated


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## morac

There's no advantage to buying directly from TiVo, unless they are running some kind of special, which they aren't currently. 

The only difference is TiVo makes more money off the sale, if you buy direct from them.


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## aristoBrat

wldlif7 said:


> Best buy has a lot less expensive extended warranty than tivo and its better from what I read.


The price of Best Buy's warranties seems to vary on the price of the device, whereas TiVo's warranty price is the same. Looks like it will depend on what you're buying as to if Best Buy is a lot less expensive.

Also, both the Best Buy and TiVo warranties are single-use.

I've never had a Best Buy warranty, but I'm strongly considering getting one under the assumption that if my Pro dies, Best Buy will do an immediate replacement. With TiVo's warranty, you have to wait 3-5 business days for while they ship a replacement. I've switched my house from 4 TiVos that could record (so if any one died, the others could pick up the slack while waiting for a replacement) to a setup with one Pro with three minis. If the Pro dies, there is no live TV (or recording) in the house until the replacement arrives.

$99 mini:
$39.99 = TiVo 3-year warranty
$19.99 = Best Buy 4-year warranty

$199 Roamio:
$39.99 = TiVo 3-year warranty
$34.99 = Best Buy 4-year warranty

$399 Roamio Plus:
$39.99 = TiVo 3-year warranty
$69.99 = Best Buy 4-year warranty

$699 Roamio Plus:
$39.99 = TiVo 3-year warranty 
$89.99 = Best Buy 4-year warranty


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## aaronwt

Online the Roamio Pro 4 year extended warranty at Best Buy is $89.99 but when I got mine from Magnolia it was only $79.99 for the four year warranty.
The extended warranty I paid was the price for an item costing between $500 and $749.99. The receipt says specifically Audio component. Although I don't know why it's listed as an audio component. Unless the salesperson did that to lower the warranty by $10.


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## wldlif7

I was thinking along the lines that TiVo would not be the best place to buy from since they are not running specials for the base Roamio unit; which I have to buy for the OTA capabilities. Wish they would add OTA to a higher end unit, seems like TiVo only adds the OTA capabilities in the base units. 

I am heading to Best Buy later this week to purchase a Roamio and buy 4 yr. plan, and a mini. 

One other question;
Is there any market for a one year old premiers?


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## morac

wldlif7 said:


> One other question;
> Is there any market for a one year old premiers?


There is, but you won't get much without Lifetime service on it. Check on eBay or something to see how much they are selling for.


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## HarperVision

[Deleted by poster due to spam]


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## Dan203

That guy was just a spammer. All his "posts" were direct copies of other posts in the thread.


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## HarperVision

Thanks. I deleted mine since it doesn't make any sense now, just like his comments.


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