# Aged Old VCR question. just making sure I understand



## newbok (Oct 2, 2009)

I found many threads about this, but none very recent.
I have a hacked Tivo Series 2 (240080 I believe). I threw TWP 2 on it and only want to use it for 'manual recording' without subscribing to tivo service. Don't need guide data or anything else, just want to vcr-style record with the thing.
I want to confirm that this is for sure not possible, prior to flee-baying it. I think this has been answerd about 36 times, but doesn't seem like anyone has asked recently, with new versions of the hack software around. Thanks.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

I am not saying it will work, but making it record without sub is OT here.


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## newbok (Oct 2, 2009)

I tried making it manual record, but either it's not working, or I don't kno where to look for the files. Does OT mean can't be discussed? Sorry, not familiar with that acronym.


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## ForrestB (Apr 8, 2004)

OT=Off Topic. According to Tivo, this topic would probably be considered theft of service and will not be discussed here.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

There are units with TIVO basic that don't need a monthly subscription, like the Toshiba RS-TX20 or the SD-H400.


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## radicaltangent (Oct 11, 2009)

Dumbing down a Tivo unit so that it functionally behaves like a VCR would most certainly NOT be theft of service! 

So long as the mod simply disables the need for the unit to use the "Tivo update service" and simply requires the user to manually enter in a channel and record time (like an ordinary VCR, since there would obviously no longer be an integrated functional TV Guide), there would be no theft of service.

I myself would very much like to see such a mod posted. I suspect it would entail (from a user's perspective) wiping the original software on the unit and loading up some kind of disk image. Someone out there must have created a solution like this by now! Anyone?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Yes it is theft of service, or at least considered such here, because that feature is one enabled by subscription on most models. Period. Endless threads discuss why it is so in detail, mostly because of the TiVo software license.

Also, there has never been written, or at least published, alternative software to run on TiVo hardware, which replaces the tivoapp which is the heart of the DVR software.

Bottom line, if you want to use TiVo hardware to be a DVR, you need the TiVo software, and to record, subscribe to service on most models.


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## ath0mps0 (Nov 5, 2009)

Just to be clear:
Regardless of what TiVo or any other company may want, using hardware you own for whatever purpose you want is an individual's unalienable right under US Law and Constitution. Also, using media (software, music and video) to which one has a legal right to access in ANY way the individual chooses within their personal domain (home, car, etc.) for non-commercial use is fair use under the Law (DMCA) and by legal precedent from the US supreme court - this has NEVER been overturned.

Therefore, the ONLY thing that in fact is "Theft of Service" is accessing updates (guide, software, etc.) without a valid TiVo subscription - just like stealing satellite TV. Any other use or change is NOT "Theft of Service". Using the software included with the device is NOT theft, as it was sold with the device. The terms of use only apply during a subscription and end user license "agreements" have never been upheld as valid contracts in personal home use and fair use environments.

TiVo's position as a "Hardware and Services" company makes no difference in this case. However, when people don't subscribe it does hurt their bottom line. Just like the cell phone companies - they subsidize the hardware with the service. Subscriptions are required for TiVo to be profitable. However, TiVo only requires a single year contract with an inital subscription - but unlike the cell companies - they refuse to "unlock" the device for standalone use after the subsidy has been paid by the client.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Whether it's right or wrong, discussions about theft of service is banned by the forums. And that includes using hacks that allow TiVo without service. There are other forums where this kind of discussion is allowed. Of course, linking to those here are also banned.

To answer the OP - you'll want an original series 1 TiVo. Most of those can be used without a sub because the software allowed it. It's not considered theft of service because it was a design oversight in the original TiVo software, and TiVo has grandfathered all units that had this behavior since the beginning - enough people were using it unsubbed that when a sub was suddenly required, it was grounds to sue TiVo since they crippled functionality and required payment to get it back. Most Series 1 units fell under this - there was a small set of Series 1 that shipped with software 2.0 that did not allow unsubbed functionality.

However, using a TiVo in this mode will produce "nag screens" daily. Talk about disabling *that* is banned here.


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## ath0mps0 (Nov 5, 2009)

OK - according to terms of service on this site discussing how to perform "Theft of Service" or linking to other sites that discuss it are not allowed. Discussion that does not fulfill the LEGAL definition is NOT banned. Since "This site is not part of TiVo, Inc.", TiVo Inc.'s definition is not the LEGAL definition. So discussing using a Series 2 or 3/HD TiVo as a VCR/basic DVR is not discussion of "Theft of Service". It doesn't matter whether TiVO likes it or not or how they consider it - it only matters what is legal. Unless TiVo really does own this forum....

It was NOT an "oversight" that the original Series 1 TiVos supported VCR mode - it was critical to get them into the market. It would have been a major negative factor in every printed or online review and the market would have gone to their more expensive predecessor, ReplayTV. When 2.0 came along, TiVo pulled a switch on the market and removed the existing functionality - without that move they would have gone out of business. In a classic case of historical revision they love their fanboiz to refer to it as an oversight.

However, with all of the still functional bricks in the market headed for the dump, they should embrace their customers that have paid for a year or more of subsidy (read subscription) and re-activate the VCR/DVR mode. If they don't the eco-ware congress/courts will do it for them.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

ath0mps0 said:


> OK - according to terms of service on this site discussing how to perform "Theft of Service" or linking to other sites that discuss it are not allowed. Discussion that does not fulfill the LEGAL definition is NOT banned. Since "This site is not part of TiVo, Inc.", TiVo Inc.'s definition is not the LEGAL definition. So discussing using a Series 2 or 3/HD TiVo as a VCR/basic DVR is not discussion of "Theft of Service". It doesn't matter whether TiVO likes it or not or how they consider it - it only matters what is legal. Unless TiVo really does own this forum....


TiVo doesn't own the forum, but they do have representatives who post here. If we talk about things TiVo Inc doesn't like (like using their software without subscribing) their reps will stop visiting here.

The forum owners made a decision a long time back that having TiVo's people here to get info from or as a path to get customer service snafus straightened out was more important than being yet another board that discusses topics like video extraction or using the box without subscribing (whether or not that might legally be found to be "theft of service").

The board owners decided that TiVo's happiness is important to them. Please respect that. 
(But feel free to search for other forums or websites that might be open to your topics of interest)


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## ath0mps0 (Nov 5, 2009)

Jonathan,

I appreciate the first reply that goes to the true heart of the issue (servitude to TiVo).

Also, please understand that I pay my dues (subscription) and am an investor (therefore part-owner) of the publicly traded company TiVo, Inc. It is my position that TiVo management is wrongfully attempting to block discussion of legal fair use of their products in order maintain and increase their and (ironically) my profitability.

Unfortunately, in this economy and with the environmental issues that discarded electronics impose on us, restricting other's owned hardware by requiring an infinite paid subscription to provide the device's most basic and widely advertised functionality (pause of live TV and recording), is not ethical or technically legal. Just look at the size of the pause button on the remote and then imagine the Judge and Jury evaluating the argument that pause is a "subscription service". I also think it is very unlikely that they could be convinced that VCR functions are not basic functionality of the purchased hardware.

As I indicated before, I understand the financial ramifications. TiVo really needs to find a middle ground. Purchasing a lifetime subscription for any outdated (for example, non-digital or single tuner) device is really out of the question for most people at this point. A $50 "TiVo Basic" one-time payment (following at least 1 year of paid subscription) would be the most equitable solution. TiVo would make money on devices that would have otherwise simply dropped their subscription and ended up in the landfill.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Take it up with TiVo Inc. then.

Until then, as long as TiVos need be subscribed to work and they offer that subscription, board rules will prohibit discussion of enabling paid for features of the TiVo software without subscription. This is the rules of the board, yes to be on the good side of TiVo Inc.

Open discussion of using the TiVo hardware without running the TiVo software is okay, but apart from a MIPS version of Debian to make it in to a headless file server (which really is not practical, considering other options on the market), I haven't heard of anything.

Pause isn't a subscription feature, but TiVo could have made it so. Recording is a subscription feature. Again, if you have a problem with that, take it up with TiVo Inc.

And, should TiVo come up with a $50 one time fee to enable recording or other basic features (fat chance IMHO; I believe $149 more realistic, but just as improbable) , board rules would still likely prohibit discussion of enabling that tier of features without subscription, and adding the full subscription features would still be "Theft of services"


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## ath0mps0 (Nov 5, 2009)

Please show me the official board rule that says "discussion of enabling paid for features of the TiVo software without subscription" is prohibited. I only find mention of "Theft of Service" which enabling VCR and basic DVR functionality is NOT.

Oh, and I have taken it up with TiVo, Inc. and I think they will only see the light when they are forced to.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Go PM a mod and ask if you are allowed to talk this topic here.


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## ath0mps0 (Nov 5, 2009)

From the Terms of Service:

-----snip-----
Banned Topics

1. Discussion that could be in potential violation of the DMCA.

2. Discussion of hacked TiVo software versions that allows Theft of Services. Even if the discussion is not about theft, since these hacked versions allow the possibility of theft, discussions about it is not permitted.

3. Discussion of hacks that remove ads from TiVo software.

4. Discussion of Video Extraction. Because of copyright issues, especially when talking about extracting digital video from a DirectTV/TiVo combo box, it has been decided that it is best to stay away from this discussion.

5. Discussion about file conversion or circumventing .tivo encryption.

6. Promoting companies or "stock talk."

7. Discussion of reverse engineering and/or materials analysis of audio and home theater components/accessories parts thereof, whether patented or not. You are free to discuss both objective test measurements, findings and opinions and subjective opinions. This does not include "Open Source" items.
-----snip-----

Talking about enabling basic VCR/DVR functionality does NOT fit the above bans. Anyone that says they do doesn't have an understanding of the terms and shouldn't be a moderator.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Deactivate your tivo

can you record anything? no

so you NEED the service to be able to record anything

hence, hacking it to be able to do that is theft of service

If you don't think it is theft of service you are just rationalizing it

either way you CAN NOT talk here about how to do this, it's been said time and time again by the mods/owners of the forum here


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## ath0mps0 (Nov 5, 2009)

Create/locate a hack that permits basic recording

Deactivate your tivo

Can you record anything? YES

Service needed? NO

hence, no theft of service, no rationalizing

hence talking about it here is NOT a violation of the terms of service as written.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

You need TiVo service to record. The TiVo will not record anything without service. If you want to use the TiVo as a basic VCR, which implies recording, you need service. Thus you must pay for service.

To not pay for service but get functionality to which service is required is considered "Theft of Service". Or to talk about hacking TiVo software to get recording functionality, which is also banned talk.

There are other places where that stuff was discussed. This is not one of them.


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

why do people even bother to post these rants here? it's not like it's going to change anything

sounds like trolling or anger because the answer to manual recording without a sub isn't posted in some N00BIE guide somewhere

who cares if you can't discuss out in the open or tivo won't give you what you feel is a 'fair deal'? Welcome To America

get a shell on your tivo (the tivo runs linux ya know?), exploit the software somewhere (the tivo runs linux ya know?), and post the info on some corner of the internet if it's such a big deal


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## ath0mps0 (Nov 5, 2009)

Worf,

Try this logic on for size: You need telephone service to talk, the telephone will not receive/transmit anything without service. If you want to use your telephone to talk (which implies receiving/transmiting), you need service. Thus you must pay for service.

But from whom and for how much? It doesn't have to be from AT&T or your incumbent local carrier - you can get it from whomever your choose. And they can charge whatever they want (even free - Gasp!). Using my telephone (that I might have purchased from AT&T) with another carrier (or on my own personal network) to talk is not "Theft of Service".

There is no law that says I have to get the ability to record on MY TiVo from TiVo, Inc. And since getting it from someone else is NOT "Theft of Service" and therefore discussing it is not (at this point) banned by the terms of service of this forum.

Your (and the other fanbois') circular logic that getting a piece of hardware to do something that the vendor requires a service to do without that service is theft of service is just plain illogical and wrong. The Kool-aid is rotting your brains.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Literally does not matter whether it's theft or not or how you rationalize it

hacking your tivo to get it to record like that w/o service is *BANNED TALK HERE

PLAIN AND SIMPLE, per the rules you agreed to when you registered here

*


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## ath0mps0 (Nov 5, 2009)

Da Goon,

It's precisely the fact that TiVo, Inc. has been able (to this point) to suppress legal discussion of a completely legal mod/hack (that they used to provide and even publish). The fact that you more prolific posters on this forum seem to think you need to correct us "noobs" is what gives me the drive to keep posting.

The fact that the users of this forum keep trying to suppress any discussion of how to perform a basic VCR/DVR mod/hack is what needs correcting. I care that some don't think it should be discussed out in the open due to a misguided loyalty. In America the rule is, if they won't give you a fair deal, go find or make your own deal and publish it far and wide until you force them to be fair or leave the market.

Oh, and thanks for the excellent lesson in TiVo hacking - I don't know what I'd do without it.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Users here aren't try to suppress it, it's the rule here and we're following it, that is it. 

This comes up like once a month, and every time someone just says that you cannot talk about hacking a Tivo here to get it to work like that and that is all.


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## ath0mps0 (Nov 5, 2009)

Mike,

My point is simply that the rules DO NOT ban discussion of this mod/hack. Only an illogical stretch of TiVo's imagination gets you to that conclusion. I agreed to the forum terms of service which bans "Theft of Service" not "Hacking of TiVo to provide VCR/DVR basic".


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

It's like if you buy a ticket to a concert and they say no flash photography. When you bought the ticket you agreed to those rules.

When you registered here, you agreed that you cannot talk about hacking a tivo get it to work that way.

plain and simple!


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

ath0mps0 said:


> Mike,
> 
> My point is simply that the rules DO NOT ban discussion of this mod/hack. Only an illogical stretch of TiVo's imagination gets you to that conclusion. I agreed to the forum terms of service which bans "Theft of Service" not "Hacking of TiVo to provide VCR/DVR basic".


Go PM a mod and ask you can discuss hacking your tivo to get it to work w/o service and see what they say


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## ath0mps0 (Nov 5, 2009)

Again, your logic is circular. As if a mod is ever going to disagree with TiVo, Inc. If a police officer says you're not allowed to do something, doesn't make it the Law.


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

ath0mps0 said:


> Oh, and thanks for the excellent lesson in TiVo hacking - I don't know what I'd do without it.


You're Welcome! Here's lesson #2 :

Q: Can you hack a TiVo for manual recording without a subscription?
A: Yes! Every last one of them...

Q: Has it been done?
A: Yes! Every last one of them...

Q: Are there instructions posted anywhere on the internet on how to do so?
A: What does Google have to say about that?

There is a script floating around on the internet that can enable manual recording on older software. There is no such hack publicly available for later software, you have to make some effort and show that you didn't sleep through assembly 101.

All of this information is freely available by searching www.google.com. Google can also lead you to tcl and assembly tutorials! Wow!

My personal opinion is that it's not even worth risking the chance of just being contacted by TiVo's attorneys over posting such a hack, freedom of speech or not. I'd rather keep something such as that to myself, rather than have to deal with lawyers for ANY reason (whether or not they actually have a case). Obviously other hackers share that sentiment.

If your first instinct is to rant in the wrong forum instead of make an honest attempt at researching/figuring out the issue on your own, then it's not worth my time to provide any more info than the above. I'm sure I'm not the only person that feels that way.

Good luck on your Conquest of TiVo!

-edit-
just for the record, I don't personally feel that enabling manual subscription without a sub is stealing anything. I couldn't possibly care less how anyone or any other party could view this whole situation

I do feel that arguing about it like this after the issue's already been beat to death is a bit childish however. Arguing here is more worthless than the US $ . If you're that concerned, then take a bunch of your own $ and go fight TiVo over it. Don't waste your time posting in this pathetic "Underground" forum.


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## ath0mps0 (Nov 5, 2009)

Da Goon said:


> You're Welcome! Here's lesson #2 :
> 
> -----snip-----
> 
> ...


Da Goon,

First, Thanks for the even more insightful and helpful lesson #2 - my world has changed! /sarcasm

Honestly, my I'm making my point for the (undesired?) benefit of:

A) Everyone who comes searching here and leaves thinking that using their TiVo as a simple VCR/DVR without subscribing to TiVo, Inc. is somehow wrong, immoral and/or illegal - which it isn't - it's our right! If enough people speak up directly to TiVo, Inc (as I have) and their government representatives (as I have), things may change (probably not).

B) The fanboyz who really truly believe it's wrong to record media without paying someone (anyone) for the 'privilege', and feel it necessary to preach the TiVo gospel to anyone who thinks different.

C) The l33t hax0r5 that dream in assembly and yet are too piss scared of huge teams of corporate (and DOJ?) lawyers to post away.

Oh, and obviously the issue won't be dead until TiVo gets it right.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

A: whether it is your "Right" or not to manually record without sub is not the point here. The fact is that the license for the Tivo software requires service for that feature. The board moderators go by that, to remain on the good side of TiVo. If you don't like that, buy this board or start your own.

B. It is not wrong to record. It is using for-pay software features without paying that is wrong, or at least against board rules to discuss how.

C: There is another board on the internet with no relationship with TiVo that discusses deeper hacking than we can here. Even they respect TiVo's right to subscription. Nearly everything else is fair game there. Board rules here forbid a link to them.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

To add

Do you want to hack your XM radio to get XM for free?


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## ath0mps0 (Nov 5, 2009)

classicsat said:


> A: whether it is your "Right" or not to manually record without sub is not the point here. The fact is that the license for the Tivo software requires service for that feature. The board moderators go by that, to remain on the good side of TiVo. If you don't like that, buy this board or start your own.
> 
> B. It is not wrong to record. It is using for-pay software features without paying that is wrong, or at least against board rules to discuss how.
> 
> C: There is another board on the internet with no relationship with TiVo that discusses deeper hacking than we can here. Even they respect TiVo's right to subscription. Nearly everything else is fair game there. Board rules here forbid a link to them.


A. The license for the TiVo software is invalid in your personal domain - the Supreme Court of the US (oops, you're CNDian...) has already ruled that what you do with anything you own in your own domain/home is outside the realm of copyright - it's called fair use. It is also law in the US that a hardware vendor cannot force you to pay/take you to court for using the basic functionality of the hardware without paying a subscription. This includes the basic software included with the hardware. However, advanced functionality and services (guide data, season passes, etc.) are different. Keep in mind that this doesn't mean that TiVo is required to provide the basic functionality at no charge - they just can't make you pay in order for you to use it (if you find a way).

B. Again, Basic VCR/DVR recording is a basic function of the box. Just because TiVo, Inc. changed their policy in order to stay profitable and alive doesn't change the facts. Again, the board terms of service do NOT prohibit discussion of this - only the enforcers do - Like the police saying the speed limit is 35 (and ticketing for driving at 51) when it's posted at 55 (then the apologists run around yelling that it really is 35).

C. I'm not arguing against TiVo's right to subscription. They have every right and actually provide me an excellent (although dated) service. I'm familiar with many discussion areas (forums, etc.) that discuss TiVo; my point is specifically geared to this forum.


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## ath0mps0 (Nov 5, 2009)

MikeMar said:


> To add
> 
> Do you want to hack your XM radio to get XM for free?


Completely different subject - like hacking your TiVo HD to get cablecard service for free - it's Theft of Service and illegal. However, hacking your XM radio in order to record a song - not illegal, or wrong, or cheating. Even if the terms of service forbid it - since US law overrides the tos.

If your XM radio also has an internal FM HD radio and you cancel your service for XM and record a song from FM - guess what? Still legal.

Now, if you emailed/P2Ped that recording to 1-10,000,000 of your best friends you would be performing distribution and God help you when RIAA comes calling.


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