# DirecTV: "The R15 Is Superior To Tivo"



## iceisles (Mar 9, 2003)

When I called to activate my Series 2 Tivo last night, the DirecTV rep. asked why I was swapping out receivers. I kid you not, he stated, "The R15 is superior to Tivo." He rambled on about the speed of the UI, the stability of the software, and the "vastly better" recording features that do not exist anywhere else. I started laughing on the phone and the guy asked what was funny. When I told him that the R15 is the single worst DVR ever manufactured in the history of the universe, the line went dead.

Do you all think DirecTV really believes the garbage they are telling customers? Nothing is better than a genuine Tivo, and nothing likely ever will be. They really shot themselves in the foot when they decided to make their own units, and though I am remaining with DirecTV (happily, with a Tivo), I hope that many jump ship to send them a message.

This is just a bit of a rant, and feel free to comment as you see fit.


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## Dkerr24 (Oct 29, 2004)

While I can't speak from a user's viewpoint on the R15, I cannot see how they could improve upon my hacked DTivo units. I can watch any program from either DTivo, can copy the programs from either DTivo to my home PC in mpeg2 format. In addition, its dead reliable - never misses a season pass I set for any program. It doesn't require connection to a landline, and no daily nag messages, either.

Show me that the R15 does all this


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## petersweston (Nov 2, 2006)

I convinced my mom to get directv since she was totaly fed up with comcast lousy picture and constant outages. The installer came over and when I wasnt there for a few minutes told my mom that her standalone tivo w lifetime sub was antiquated and they are selling them for 25 dollars and she should get the r15. When i heard this i blew up at the guy. The standalone tivo even w 1 tuner is vastly superior to the r15. Boy did he pick the wrong Tivo household to hawk the POS r15. This guy kept going on and on even to me about how much better the r15 is than tivo.

Sufficed to say my mom listened to me and not the installer and kept her s/a (she did not want to pay the dvr fee otherwise i would have given her one of my directivos) 

It only took me a few minutes to teach her to use the tivo and she has been happy for almost a year(she is tech challenged) I cant even imagine trying to teach her all over to use the r15. 

Pq and recording 2 shows is not important especialy since she had comcast before.

Talk about nerve telling someone a tivo with constant updated software and all kinds of features is antiquated and sells for 25  (especialy since i recently saw it at target for 220)  

When did it become the installers job to push this Piece of crap(r15)


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## petersweston (Nov 2, 2006)

Dkerr24 said:


> While I can't speak from a user's viewpoint on the R15, I cannot see how they could improve upon my hacked DTivo units. I can watch any program from either DTivo, can copy the programs from either DTivo to my home PC in mpeg2 format. In addition, its dead reliable - never misses a season pass I set for any program. It doesn't require connection to a landline, and no daily nag messages, either.
> 
> Show me that the R15 does all this


Dont forget the fact that you cant fill up an r15 with shows cancel D* and enjoy them forever. I have close to 500 hours on one and can leave at any time and watch my shows. Lets see ya do that with an r15


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## sarge83 (Nov 29, 2005)

When I had an R15 for all of a week I called Direct about getting a TIVO unit and got the same load of crap about all the extra features the R15 had and how it could do this and do that and that TIVO units couldn't do that. Finally I said that is all well and good, however you forgot the basics of a DVR such as being reliable and user friendly, without those what is the point of all the other stuff? You guys screwed the pooch on this one bad. They apologized and gave me some discount for 6 months but didn't solve the problem. So I bought a refurb. Tivo and replaced the dog and pony show they called a DVR.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

*DirecTV:* "Our Kool-Aid is _superior_ to that orange juice you DTivo folks are drinking."

I don't have time to count them, but I'm sure the number of "I hate the R15 - I want to get a DTivo to replace it" posts far outweigh the "I ditched my awful DTivo for a wonderful R15" - I'm not sure I can find any of the latter.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

Dkerr24 said:


> Show me that the R15 does all this


 plus:

* (via a secure connection) direct connect to any of my 4 DTivos via the web to schedule shows.
* Backups of wishlists and channel settings to my PC
* Merge function that permits me to play multiple shows as one for backup to my DVD recorder

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid DirecTV... and smoke that green leafy stuff too.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

goony said:


> *DirecTV:* "Our Kool-Aid is _superior_ to that orange juice you DTivo folks are drinking."
> 
> I don't have time to count them, but I'm sure the number of "I hate the R15 - I want to get a DTivo to replace it" posts far outweigh the "I ditched my awful DTivo for a wonderful R15" - I'm not sure I can find any of the latter.


I've seen a few (no doubt we'll see one here pretty soon complaining that R15 discussion is only allowed here when it's R15 bashing )


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

You can all discuss what you want.... but for more information about the R15... as usuall.
www.dbstalk.com

But as for the comparison to the "hacked" DTivos.

You can't really compare them... as for what you have there is a "hacked" DTivo.. you have added to it, what the "average" consumer can't/won't or what ever.

So yes, a tweaked out Car is better then it's original version... and usually is then better then the competitors, as they are not targetting the "tweaked" out versions.


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## Pab Sungenis (Apr 13, 2002)

You're all forgetting: to DirecTV the R15 is "superior" because their parent company keeps all the money from it, instead of licensing technology from a third party like TiVo.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

It's going to be interesting when Comcast and Cox start pounding the DTV subscribers with the message, "Come to cable and get a *real* TiVo with all the latest TiVo features, plus integrated VOD, PPV..." 

I wonder how much DTV is really going to "save" by dumping TiVo?


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ebonovic said:


> But as for the comparison to the "hacked" DTivos.
> 
> You can't really compare them... as for what you have there is a "hacked" DTivo.. you have added to it, what the "average" consumer can't/won't or what ever.


I don't consider myself an "average" consumer (with 9 DVRs and 14 tuners between Dish and DTV, I'm hardly typical subscriber), but hacking TiVo never attracted me as a good idea.
If I need an extra space I can always afford to get an extra unit. 
I don't care about connecting my DVR to internet - I have plenty of computers on my home network to do that.
I don't care about TTG or video extraction because for the little archiving I do DVDRs work just fine.
I don't need to access my pictures from my computers - I archive my photos on CDs and DVDs and can always play them on my TV from DVD player.
I don't care about MRV, because except for TiVo all of my DVRS have RF remotes.
So I can honestly say that when I compare different makes and models of DVRs that I have I'm comparing apples and apples. 
I am probably one of the few people who considers dropping DTiVos in favor of R-15s. The are lot of small things that R-15 does better than TiVo, but none of them would be enough of the factor to switch. I can put up with a primitive UI that TiVo has, ugly guide doesn't bother me too much, I got used to 30 minutes buffer abortion long time ago. But the one thing that makes me consider dropping TiVo is IR remote. I absolutely love RF remotes. I just recently learned on dbstalk that RF remote capability is enabled on R-15. That may make me drop R-10s and replace them with R-15s.
And I tend to agree with DTV CSR - R-15 is superior to R-10 on many features that are important to me (and probably to many other customers). R-15 is not TiVo and is very different from UI standpoint, but it has more user friendly features and just works faster and better as DVR. And I couldn't care less that it isn't "media center" or doesn't allow me to hack it to 10,000 hours.


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## petersweston (Nov 2, 2006)

samo said:


> I don't consider myself an "average" consumer (with 9 DVRs and 14 tuners between Dish and DTV, I'm hardly typical subscriber), but hacking TiVo never attracted me as a good idea.
> If I need an extra space I can always afford to get an extra unit.
> I don't care about connecting my DVR to internet - I have plenty of computers on my home network to do that.
> I don't care about TTG or video extraction because for the little archiving I do DVDRs work just fine.
> ...


One question. Since you dislike tivo so much why are you here? Last time i looked this is the Tivo community. Not that your not welcome. But do you also go into a freinds house and start telling them all the things you hate about their house?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

samo said:


> And I tend to agree with DTV CSR - R-15 is superior to R-10 on many features that are important to me (and probably to many other customers). R-15 is not TiVo and is very different from UI standpoint, but it has more user friendly features and just works faster and better as DVR. And I couldn't care less that it isn't "media center" or doesn't allow me to hack it to 10,000 hours.


And these features are? I have yet to find a feature on the R-15 I wish my Tivo had.

And your idea of better must be different than mine. My Tivos work. They record the shows I want. I gave the R-15 plenty of chances but after the missed shows, partial recordings, and series link limits I shelved all but one unit which I leave hooked up next to a Tivo to demonstrate to friends that come over.


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## petersweston (Nov 2, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> And these features are? I have yet to find a feature on the R-15 I wish my Tivo had.
> 
> And your idea of better must be different than mine. My Tivos work. They record the shows I want. I gave the R-15 plenty of chances but after the missed shows, partial recordings, and series link limits I shelved all but one unit which I leave hooked up next to a Tivo to demonstrate to friends that come over.


+1 The only time my tivos missed shows was when the guide data was screwed up. And if i am not mistaken The r15 gets the same data.

Btw in Years i have only once missed shows. (when adult swim switched family guy and futurama time slots suddenly, My dsr 708 caught up right away)


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Pab Sungenis said:


> You're all forgetting: to DirecTV the R15 is "superior" because their parent company keeps all the money from it, instead of licensing technology from a third party like TiVo.


Indeed. And what makes it even more absurd is that those fees, around $1 per subscriber, covered costs that DirecTV is now incurring.


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## SP1200 (Dec 5, 2006)

Hey Dkerr24

I'm net to Tivo and this forum. I had a junk D15 my 3 one just broke, and the supervisor as Direct TV's "Customer retention" department just told me to get a D10 off ebay!...
lol...can you believe that a direct tv employee just told me to get a old D10 of ebay!...lol...

So Dkerr24 what is a hacked DTivo?

Is it a hacked D10? And is so...how can I hack my new D10 when it get here..?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

D10 is a non-dvr receiver.

If you are referring to an R10... you can't... unless you know how to replace an eprom chip on the mother board.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

SP1200 said:


> Hey Dkerr24
> 
> I'm net to Tivo and this forum. I had a junk D15 my 3 one just broke, and the supervisor as Direct TV's "Customer retention" department just told me to get a D10 off ebay!...
> lol...can you believe that a direct tv employee just told me to get a old D10 of ebay!...lol...
> ...


D10 isn't a DVR, it is a standalone receiver.

You want an R10 which is a DVR with TiVo.

phox


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> You can't really compare them... as for what you have there is a "hacked" DTivo.. you have added to it, what the "average" consumer can't/won't or what ever.
> 
> So yes, a tweaked out Car is better then it's original version... and usually is then better then the competitors, as they are not targetting the "tweaked" out versions.


You're right... but to use the car analogy, the R15 has its hood welded shut to prevent any "enhancements", while the S2 DTivo (with the exception of the R10) lets you tinker all you want. If the dealer wanted to sell me a car with the hood welded shut I'd take a pass.

And, as with autos, there are very few of us that actually tweak things under the hood - 99% of the buyers just want to use them without modification.

The people that have posted the "I hate the R15 - I want to get a DTivo to replace it" are certainly comparing the stock DTivo to the R15 and rejecting the R15 as sub-optimal... it's just that a few of us with enhanced DTivos have even more reason to not wish to part with them for now.

The R15 might be fine if you'd never used a Tivo/DTivo before and aren't accustomed to using the full features such as Wishlists. When the <any DirecTV DVR> can be setup specifically to automatically record "All talk shows with Tom Hanks" or "All Movies with Rowan Atkinson" then I will take a good solid look at a non-Tivo DVR.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

I have no trouble agreeing that my DirecTivo's are far more reliable than the R15 today. But I would be willing to bet that most of the people getting an R15 today have never had a DVR before and are perfectly happy with it. So I doubt DTV is sitting around saying, "Boy we screwed up."

A significant plus to the R15 for DTV is that it has the same interface as their non-dvr boxes. So DTV customers don't have to learn a new interface when they move from one box to another (often in the same house).


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## iceisles (Mar 9, 2003)

As much as I love DirecTV, I love Tivo more and will go wherever they do. Thankfully, I'll be able to use my DirecTivo for at least another three years, which gives DirecTV plenty of time to improve their DVR offerings. However, I really doubt any cable or satellite provider will ever be able to produce an in-house DVR that matches the speed, reliability, and features of a genuine Tivo. While I think their current pricing structure for standalone units sucks, I would probably pay it anyway. Unfortunately, most people likely wouldn't, and as has been discussed, those that never had Tivo probably feel any DVR is a vast improvement over a VCR (and I suppose it is).

There's a reason that Tivo has remained the leader in this technology, and despite my frustration with the R15, I can't help but smile when I see their plan backfire. I'm not convinced DirecTV is kicking themselves over letting Tivo get away, but they should be. IMO, this will haunt them in the long run once Comcast, etc. offers Tivo-based units that make everything else look like a pile of trash.


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## SeattleCarl (Nov 11, 2005)

petersweston said:


> Dont forget the fact that you cant fill up an r15 with shows cancel D* and enjoy them forever. I have close to 500 hours on one and can leave at any time and watch my shows. Lets see ya do that with an r15


Actually you can do that. Just unplug the R15 from the satellite before cancelling service.
Carl


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## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

With a major change in management (Murdoch selling) most imminent I am not so sure which way Directv will go. Who says they won't change direction again? They could stay with their own, go back to Tivo, combine them, or go even some other direction. I wouldn't even have thought anything was possible just 9 months ago. In any case it should be a very interesting next couple of years.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Markman07 said:


> With a major change in management (Murdoch selling) most imminent I am not so sure which way Directv will go. Who says they won't change direction again? They could stay with their own, go back to Tivo, combine them, or go even some other direction. I wouldn't even have thought anything was possible just 9 months ago. In any case it should be a very interesting next couple of years.


If DTV goes to Malone, it is unlikely he would keep the Murdoch brass or the NDS (Murdoch-again) DVR for very long (the latter longer than the former, I think). But is is by no means a lock for TiVo to get the contract back.


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## qcpw256 (Jun 17, 2005)

No way will I leave TIVO as other hardware/software that you can add on to it are out in the market and have all the feature built in. EXAMPLE I bought a sling box and right out of the box the sling box connected to my wireless system and to my TIVO and when I was in the dominican republic my PC had all the skins of TIVO and it was sweet to be out of the country watching my TIVO on my laptop.

Regards,
GFS


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

See http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/06/b...ab017c6477cea2&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I wonder what DirecTV will say now, when Murdock wants more money for his NDS based DVRs?


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

JimSpence said:


> See http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/06/b...ab017c6477cea2&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
> 
> I wonder what DirecTV will say now, when Murdock wants more money for his NDS based DVRs?


1) Produce in-house DVR
2) Sell company that uses in-house DVR
3) ???
4) Profit


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> It's going to be interesting when Comcast and Cox start pounding the DTV subscribers with the message, "Come to cable and get a *real* TiVo with all the latest TiVo features, plus integrated VOD, PPV..."


That's a good one. Do you think the boxes will exist any time soon? That will help their marketing campaigns out a lot!

Seriously though, that's the problem Chucky. People, average people, don't see value in having "genuine TiVo". They believe they already have it.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Maybe thats because nobody has started a buy GENUINE campaign yet.
Marketing can be pretty persuasive. The problem is marketing is expensive so Tivo needs help from Comcast.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Actually, I think Tivo is running one of those campaigns now. We'll see if it's effective I suppose.


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## Blitz68 (May 11, 2006)

The R15 is superior to DTivo in many ways.

And some of the features you are now getting via hacking a DTivo will be features built into the DTV +DVR's.

OH Yeah the PQ is alot better on the new boxes


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I hope Rupert hasn't completely destroyed DTV now that he's done with it.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Billy66 said:


> That's a good one. Do you think the boxes will exist any time soon?


They already exist (it is Motorola hardware), and the new software and middleware are being tested now. Public testing is expected in January, with broad rollout planned for April.


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## petersweston (Nov 2, 2006)

Blitz68 said:


> The R15 is superior to DTivo in many ways.
> 
> And some of the features you are now getting via hacking a DTivo will be features built into the DTV +DVR's.


I heard this also. They expect to roll out the features by christmas.

12 /25/2023


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

Blitz68 said:


> The R15 is superior to DTivo in many ways.


Like the bulleted list found in this post?


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

We should go to www.dbstalk.com to discuss that list goony. We can post bulleted lists back and forth forever. This forum is not shy on posts trashing every flavor of TiVo.

Seriously though, what should the DTV CSR say? The company DTV believes in their path, so they believe in that statement. It's no surprise they would say that just like Pony comes here with a price increase and calls it "more options". That's what companies do.

Unlike you Goony, I've tried them all. Superior is not a word that I would use to describe either the DTV models or the DTivo's. I suppose that's why we have these threads.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> The company DTV believes in their path


At the moment, not so much.

Like many, I share the hope that the new DirecTV under new leadership may turn for the better, but I have to admit it is just about as likely that it merely continues its descent into oblivion, or even accelerates it.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

You realize that DTV competes against cable companies don't you? They've got a long way to drop just to reach average in their industry. Oblivion keeps getting pushed lower and lower.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

I agree that most of this talk belongs in another forum.

The Tivo/DTivo user is obviously a different kind of DVR user; we see them as being far more than a glorified hard-drive based VCR. And, as forum users we're probably in an even more narrow user catagory of being a techno-centric sort of person.

Thus, as a Tivo lover and likely technically adept we reject what we perceive as a "DVR for the masses" and prefer a different experience. Neither product (R15 or DTivo) is "wrong", it's just that we feel somewhat put off when DirecTV calls their shiny new R15 "superior".

I realize that it's just CSRs touting the company-speak... the main reason is probably that DirecTV woudn't mind one bit if DTivo users "upgraded" to an R15 so as to lock them into another 2 years of DirecTV service.


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## Richly917 (Dec 9, 2006)

iceisles said:


> When I called to activate my Series 2 Tivo last night, the DirecTV rep. asked why I was swapping out receivers. I kid you not, he stated, "The R15 is superior to Tivo." He rambled on about the speed of the UI, the stability of the software, and the "vastly better" recording features that do not exist anywhere else. I started laughing on the phone and the guy asked what was funny. When I told him that the R15 is the single worst DVR ever manufactured in the history of the universe, the line went dead.
> 
> Do you all think DirecTV really believes the garbage they are telling customers? Nothing is better than a genuine Tivo, and nothing likely ever will be. They really shot themselves in the foot when they decided to make their own units, and though I am remaining with DirecTV (happily, with a Tivo), I hope that many jump ship to send them a message.
> 
> This is just a bit of a rant, and feel free to comment as you see fit.


It would impossible for me agree more strongly with you. I'm sure money was at the root of DTV to drop Tivo. They perhaps made a few pennies but lost customers and customer good will. I have an HR10 ordered to arrive on Wedesday. I fully realize that it will be useless for HD in a short time. DTV is changing ALL HD channels to MPEG4 which will render my wonderful Tivo useless for HD. But I intend to keep it just for the HDMI output to my new Sony LCD 60". My wonderful Tivo R10 doesn't have HDMI so I will use the HR10 until a sane person gets DVT straightened out and goes back to Tivo. 
There is some hope that the new owner will do the right thing.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> You realize that DTV competes against cable companies don't you?.


That battle would be difficult to lose, though they've been trying. But they're also competing against an expanding world of choices and you do that by getting better, not degrading your service.

Cable, BTW, is frequently a very inexpensive option for a "basic" selection of digital channels.

Once people begin to understand the _new_ OTA digital environment, supplemented by Netflix, iTunes and other sources for programming not OTA, DirecTV will be even further eroded. The 6-7 networks provide a good "base load" of entertainment OTA for free. Other sources then provide the individual viewer his non-OTA choices ala carte, which is what the viewing public want.


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## terrymoriarty (Dec 10, 2006)

Dkerr24 said:


> an copy the programs from either DTivo to my home PC in mpeg2 format.


I have a DVR120 with 2 USB ports. Is there a way that I can convert programs copied to MPEG and download to my laptop? If so, where do I go to find out the instructions to do this.

Thanks


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Redux said:


> That battle would be difficult to lose, though they've been trying.


ROTFLMAO! True dat!



> But they're also competing against an expanding world of choices and you do that by getting better, not degrading your service.
> 
> Cable, BTW, is frequently a very inexpensive option for a "basic" selection of digital channels.
> 
> Once people begin to understand the _new_ OTA digital environment, supplemented by Netflix, iTunes and other sources for programming not OTA, DirecTV will be even further eroded. The 6-7 networks provide a good "base load" of entertainment OTA for free. Other sources then provide the individual viewer his non-OTA choices ala carte, which is what the viewing public want.


I'm seeing this too. With the zillions of channels I have, I still only watch about a dozen of them and half are OTA.


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## Les_D (Mar 6, 2002)

terrymoriarty said:


> I have a DVR120 with 2 USB ports. Is there a way that I can convert programs copied to MPEG and download to my laptop? If so, where do I go to find out the instructions to do this.
> 
> Thanks


  
Strap on your safety harness and jump into the underground


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## Dante101 (Aug 1, 2003)

I prefer my unhacked Tivo because:

1) It rarely misses recording my shows

2) I use the Wishlist feature religiously

I dislike the R15 because:

1) It doesn't seem as reliable

2) The Wishlist feature is too limited

3) When skipping through commercials, it doesn't jump back a few seconds to allow for reaction time (like the Tivo does)

4) The unit seemed to take orders from the remote as if we were pushing the button twice


If the R15's were solid and reliable, and if they fixed the limitations to the Wishlist search, I probably wouldn't mind switching. Here are some things I like about the R15:

I like the fact that their remote turns on/off the unit & TV with one button.

I like the fact that I can buy a new hard drive for the R15 and drop it in without having to format it (or so I hear - correct me if I'm wrong).

I like the on-screen caller ID.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Dante101 said:


> I like the fact that I can buy a new hard drive for the R15 and drop it in without having to format it (or so I hear - correct me if I'm wrong).


No, not on the R15.

On the HR20, yes... you can change the internal or use an external eSATA drive.

EDIT: Changed for clarrification


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

Redux said:


> That battle would be difficult to lose, though they've been trying. But they're also competing against an expanding world of choices and you do that by getting better, not degrading your service.
> 
> Cable, BTW, is frequently a very inexpensive option for a "basic" selection of digital channels.
> 
> Once people begin to understand the _new_ OTA digital environment, supplemented by Netflix, iTunes and other sources for programming not OTA, DirecTV will be even further eroded. The 6-7 networks provide a good "base load" of entertainment OTA for free. Other sources then provide the individual viewer his non-OTA choices ala carte, which is what the viewing public want.


 yes, yes, yes, that's it.

That's how I plan to use my S3 units. Free HD OTA, and whoever steps up with a Netflix type offering via download. Could be iTunes, could be Netflix, could be the cable channels themselves with a direct type model. But actually signing up for a cable TV package is low on my list, especially considering their prices and what I actually consume. They might get my broadband business and IP phone, but I'll compare them to DSL and regular phone.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> No, not on the R15.
> 
> On the HR20, yes... you can change the internal, or add an external.


Unless something has changed recently, don't you mean to say "you can change the internal or change it to use external"?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

ping said:


> Unless something has changed recently, don't you mean to say "you can change the internal or change it to use external"?


Yes, sorry for the poor wording:

Since the HR20 came out, you could replace the internal hard drive with a larger one. (No software needed, just physically install the appropriate drive).

For about 2+ months now, DirecTV activated the eSATA port on the system.
If you connect an eSATA drive, the HR20 will use that drive INSTEAD of the internal drive.


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## mfreeman73 (Dec 13, 2006)

The R15 is one of the main things that pushed me away from D*. I just cancelled my account and went back to Cox. Can't wait for Tivo to come to Cox. I think Tivo is playing it smart by working with the cable companies to get their software used by them.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

samo said:


> I don't consider myself an "average" consumer (with 9 DVRs and 14 tuners between Dish and DTV, I'm hardly typical subscriber), but hacking TiVo never attracted me as a good idea.
> If I need an extra space I can always afford to get an extra unit.


And pay the extra mirroring fee and have to run more cables and take up more space and pay more for your electric bill, etc. Smart plan. :up:



> I don't care about connecting my DVR to internet - I have plenty of computers on my home network to do that.


Tivos aren't necessarily hacked to connect to the internet. They're hacked so you can communicate with them from your PC.



> I don't care about TTG or video extraction because for the little archiving I do DVDRs work just fine.


Sure they do, as long as you don't mind a slight degradation of the picture quality. Direct extraction preserves the original image since the processing is done entirely in the digital domain.



> I don't need to access my pictures from my computers - I archive my photos on CDs and DVDs and can always play them on my TV from DVD player.


This isn't a feature I use much but it's still pretty cool.



> I don't care about MRV, because except for TiVo all of my DVRS have RF remotes.


Then you don't really understand what MRV is all about. You can have Tivos for every room in your house and be able to share programs between them. If you would normally have standard receivers in every room then you can replace them with DTivos for the same cost. Extra DTivos give you extra tuners and you don't have to upgrade the storage capacity on any of them since you basically have accesss to the total combined compacity of every DTivo. This may seem to contradict my statement above regarding multiple DTivos but it only applies if you have them in different rooms. If they're in the same room and you don't need the extra tuners then simply ugrading the drive is the smart way to go.



> So I can honestly say that when I compare different makes and models of DVRs that I have I'm comparing apples and apples.


This applies only if you're comparing different brands of DTivos with each other (i.e., Philips vs. Hughes vs. Samsung vs. RCA). There is no comparison between a DTivo and an R15 or a Dish PVR.



> I am probably one of the few people who considers dropping DTiVos in favor of R-15s. The are lot of small things that R-15 does better than TiVo, but none of them would be enough of the factor to switch. I can put up with a primitive UI that TiVo has, ugly guide doesn't bother me too much, I got used to 30 minutes buffer abortion long time ago. But the one thing that makes me consider dropping TiVo is IR remote. I absolutely love RF remotes. I just recently learned on dbstalk that RF remote capability is enabled on R-15. That may make me drop R-10s and replace them with R-15s.


I won't comment on the idiocy of this statement as there may be children in the room. 



> And I tend to agree with DTV CSR - R-15 is superior to R-10 on many features that are important to me (and probably to many other customers). R-15 is not TiVo and is very different from UI standpoint, but it has more user friendly features and just works faster and better as DVR. And I couldn't care less that it isn't "media center" or doesn't allow me to hack it to 10,000 hours.


Then you must either work for DTV or you've been abducted by aliens.


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## Dante101 (Aug 1, 2003)

> I am probably one of the few people who considers dropping DTiVos in favor of R-15s. The are lot of small things that R-15 does better than TiVo, but none of them would be enough of the factor to switch.


I agree - there are some nice new features in the R-15s. However, my Mom made the switch from the DTivos to the R15s (when one of her Tivos was dying), and she had all sorts of problems. She could handle the new interface, but the damn things (she got 3 of them) just wouldn't work properly. A few different times she had to force the units to record shows that should have recorded automatically; she had one show that only got recorded for the first 15 minutes, and another that only got recorded for the last 15 minutes; and each R15 machine seemed to have its own peculiar glitch. One unit had a noisy fan that never stopped, one unit had its timebar continually get stuck (so you could never tell where you were in the episode), one unit would reboot on its own...

One DTV CSR told my Mom that the newest series of R15s are vastly superior, and apparently don't have problems. I forget, but I think she said it was the "500 series" or something. This was when my Mom was on the phone complaining and getting replacements. So my Mom asked if she could have those 500 series DVRs, and they said there was no guarantee which model the warehouse ends up sending you...

So last month, my Mom went back to using her D*Tivos, and bought a new one from Weaknees.

Features are nice, but you gotta get the damn thing to do its basic job first - it has to RELIABLY record your TV shows. And IMO, the R15s don't do that yet.


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## bearymore (Jan 20, 2002)

Dante101 said:


> One DTV CSR told my Mom that the newest series of R15s are vastly superior, and apparently don't have problems. I forget, but I think she said it was the "500 series" or something. This was when my Mom was on the phone complaining and getting replacements. So my Mom asked if she could have those 500 series DVRs, and they said there was no guarantee which model the warehouse ends up sending you...
> 
> So last month, my Mom went back to using her D*Tivos, and bought a new one from Weaknees.
> 
> Features are nice, but you gotta get the damn thing to do its basic job first - it has to RELIABLY record your TV shows. And IMO, the R15s don't do that yet.


When one of my Series 1 DTivos died, the CSR fed me the Koolaid and offered to send two new, vastly superior R15s for free. Stupidly, I took him up on the offer. Within 3 weeks, I replaced them with two DTivos from PTVUpgrade. It wasn't the lack of features that caused me to switch so quickly, but the fact that the machines just didn't work as advertised. Fast forward seemed to stop where it wanted to and RW was a total crapshoot. You'd FF and overshoot two or three minutes, hit rewind to go where you intended and find yourself magically transported to the beginning of the show. This was just unacceptable. I posted a message on DBSTalk to find out if they planned to fix this issue and was told that it was virtually unfixable because the R15 uses a FAT32 (!!!!) file system. Others said that only "advanced users" would care about this problem. So much for the R15.


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

" Others said that only "advanced users" would care about this problem. "

So Intermediate users never fast forward or rewind. And I suppose, novice users never even record. No wonder the R15 works so well.


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## damauldin (Dec 19, 2006)

Hi,

I totally agree. The R15 is CRAP.

David Mauldin


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

> I don't care about MRV, because except for TiVo all of my DVRS have RF remotes.


Here is exactly what is great about MRV: I was watching a program on the "big TV" in the living room and my daughter rolled in with a brace of cats (her college peeps) and wanted to watch TV in that room since it has seating for many.

I paused my show, went to the bedroom, selected the show from the living room DVR and selected "Watch from paused location". No switch flipping, no channel changing, no tricks, no nuttin - it just works.

Meanwhile, in the living room she wants view a show from _her DVR_ on the living room box - again, no problem - select the show on her DVR, start watching.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

goony said:


> Here is exactly what is great about MRV: I was watching a program on the "big TV" in the living room and my daughter rolled in with a brace of cats (her college peeps) and wanted to watch TV in that room since it has seating for many.
> 
> I paused my show, went to the bedroom, selected the show from the living room DVR and selected "Watch from paused location". No switch flipping, no channel changing, no tricks, no nuttin - it just works.
> 
> Meanwhile, in the living room she wants view a show from _her DVR_ on the living room box - again, no problem - select the show on her DVR, start watching.


This is a good description of the problem. You did not compensate the entertainment industry for this additional use of their property and they view you as a criminal. This is why there is no MRV on the s3 and may never ever be again on any consumer product.

The owner of an entertainment wants you to view it, once, all at once, at one location, under conditions he defines. The model is the theater ticket, the one-time opportunity to view, and they are not bowing to technology on this. If you want additional uses of their property you must pay them for it.


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## grizzly_cs (Oct 31, 2006)

Redux said:


> This is a good description of the problem. You did not compensate the entertainment industry for this additional use of their property and they view you as a criminal. This is why there is no MRV on the s3 and may never ever be again on any consumer product.
> 
> The owner of an entertainment wants you to view it, once, all at once, at one location, under conditions he defines. The model is the theater ticket, the one-time opportunity to view, and they are not bowing to technology on this. If you want additional uses of their property you must pay them for it.


Then why in the world would they allow the use of a DVR to begin with using your logic... or even a VCR.. I guess everyone only uses it for time shifting and only views the program once and deletes it... hmmmm that just dont make the grade for the reason, they dont want MRV for the fact that the networkand ability is there. There will be those that extract and distribute.. And they wont do it until they can control it via some means...


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

One users' current gripelist on the one-year old R15:


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## Blitz68 (May 11, 2006)

Markman07 said:


> With a major change in management (Murdoch selling) most imminent I am not so sure which way Directv will go. Who says they won't change direction again? They could stay with their own, *go back to Tivo*, combine them, or go even some other direction. I wouldn't even have thought anything was possible just 9 months ago. In any case it should be a very interesting next couple of years.


Why go backwards? Tivo is old news.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

Blitz68 said:


> Why go backwards? Tivo is old news.


Don't confuse direction with progress.

Unmodified DTivos used to sell on eBay for $25-$40 and now they're around $100 - why would such an 'old device' be experiencing an increase in demand?


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

It's not an increase in demand, it's a decrease in supply that's causing that. They aren't being made.


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## jrinck (Nov 24, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> It's not an increase in demand, it's a decrease in supply that's causing that. They aren't being made.


People still want them, yet they're not making them anymore. Those same people also, apparently, don't want the replacement product being offered. To me, that means there was a poor business decision made to stop making the original product.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

jrinck said:


> People still want them, yet they're not making them anymore. Those same people also, apparently, don't want the replacement product being offered. To me, that means there was a poor business decision made to stop making the original product.


Do any of your business decisions include retaining profit?

Nonetheless, demand is likely DOWN for Dtivo's as some of the market (however small) chooses the DTV offering. The supply is down because they aren't making them. Thus my point in reply was that it's the decreased supply that is driving the increased price, not an increase in demand.


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## jrinck (Nov 24, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> Do any of your business decisions include retaining profit?
> 
> Nonetheless, demand is likely DOWN for Dtivo's as some of the market (however small) chooses the DTV offering. The supply is down because they aren't making them. Thus my point in reply was that it's the decreased supply that is driving the increased price, not an increase in demand.


It didn't seem like they were losing money on the DTIVOs. They took the money, did nothing to maintain the machines, and gave just $1 of it to Tivo. They just wanted to MAXIMIZE the profits, which is fine if you remember to build a product that people want more than the old product.

DirecTV had the best DVR out there, now they have one of the worst.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

jrinck said:


> DirecTV had the best DVR out there, now they have one of the worst.


Which is a bold, risk-taking step. At some level you've got to regard that degree of courage, or idiocy, with a kind of awe.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

Redux said:


> Which is a bold, risk-taking step. At some level you've got to regard that degree of courage, or idiocy, with a kind of awe.


Awe? Sorry, that isn't the word that I am able to summon in this situation.

I went through one DBS vendor (Dish/Echostar) and left them a few years ago due to a really faulty DVR experience - I am totally delighted with the DTivo and it is currently *the *reason that I am staying a DirecTV customer.

How does offering a sub-par DVR (in terms of design and reliability) help to maintain DirecTV customer satisfaction? If people aren't satisfied (or don't percieve the DirecTV DVR as being any better than another providers' DVR) they will jump ship to cable or Dish just to save a few bucks.

I don't think DirecTV fully considered what it would take for them to design/build/ship/support a quality DVR product... and having their CSRs try to blow smoke isn't going to make up for its shortcomings.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

goony said:


> How does offering a sub-par DVR (in terms of design and reliability) help to maintain DirecTV customer satisfaction?


First of all, you identify your target audience as _new_ to the DVR experience, people who don't know any better and who therefore think the crappy product is pretty cool. As far as the existing DTivo base, you write much of that off and assign your shills to make the best case they can, a thankless task but some DTivo customers will be fooled.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

jrinck said:


> It didn't seem like they were losing money on the DTIVOs. They took the money, did nothing to maintain the machines, and gave just $1 of it to Tivo. They just wanted to MAXIMIZE the profits, which is fine if you remember to build a product that people want more than the old product.
> 
> DirecTV had the best DVR out there, now they have one of the worst.


Ahh maximize profits, now there is a business decision.

You can define best, or better, or worse any way you like, but they will define it by their ability to sell them. The HR20 went out of stock almost immediately. There is absolutely no sign that these are moving any slower than the DtIvo's were, so where was the bad business decision again jrinck?

BTW, you should drive the remote on an HR20, that way when you make statements about best and worst, at least you'll have some basis in reality. Either way, it isn't important for a business decision that you initially claimed was bad, and then followed up by saying it maximized profits.


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## DouglasPHill (Feb 10, 2005)

This thread is getting old. This is like a political argument, both sides think they're right and don't want to be confused with the facts. The statement about "R15 is Superior..." is just bullquack trying to start an argument. Direct made their choice and now its customers have to live with it or leave. End of discussion.


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## Blitz68 (May 11, 2006)

goony said:


> Don't confuse direction with progress.
> 
> Unmodified DTivos used to sell on eBay for $25-$40 and now they're around $100 - why would such an 'old device' be experiencing an increase in demand?


lol... If it wasn't for DirecTV Tivo might have been out of business by now.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

DouglasPHill said:


> This thread is getting old. This is like a political argument, both sides think they're right and don't want to be confused with the facts.


Yep, it's like arguing "Which is better, a car or a truck?" - both answers are correct - it just depends on what you want from it.

When the R15 was rolled out it was proffered here that DirecTV should have made BOTH available - then those that desired could migrate from an entry-level DVR to a _connoisseur's DVR_ - the Tivo-based unit.


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## Blitz68 (May 11, 2006)

Can we get a mod to close it then?


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

goony said:


> When the R15 was rolled out it was proffered here that DirecTV should have made BOTH available - then those that desired could migrate from an entry-level DVR to a _connoisseur's DVR_ - the Tivo-based unit.


Going back to my HR10 from my HR20 would be a downgrade in features and a wash in performance at this point. I love my Dtivo's, but the HR20 is really nice.


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## jobfather (Dec 23, 2006)

I just got an R15 (my old hard drive crapped out) and it is the biggest piece of junk I have had yet. Here's why: The wishlist is limited to 25 entries so if you add a new one when full, the last one disappears and it must be reentered; searches are so wild that you receive everything under the sun making it worthless. When I entered "Presley" (my wife likes his movies!) Elvis didn't even appear!!! And, searches are no longer alphabetical....only random as you enter them. And their program screens are so full of unnecessary info everyting is smaller and harder to see. The screen shows so few entires at a time after a search, you end up pushing the down button twice as much. You have to double click the guide button to get the onscreen program. But worst of all is the remote. It must be a Philips! The buttons are hard to press and when you do press them, most of the time they "finally" will make a double entry so now one must go back and delete. The layout of the remote is bass ackwards from the peanut Tivo remote, and I cannot find a way to scan forward in the onscreen programs like the peanute remote did. There are many other complaints I have from an end user standpoint but I won't waste any more time justifying my opinion. 

SO, I am considering buying a TIVO....I just need to be certain of compatibility. The R15 has dual tuners....the TIVO website says one cannot watch one channel while recording another with DTV even with the Tivo DT....can anyone out there advise me on this? 

Also, a Best Buy sales person told me that DirecTV owns TIVO...not sure if its true but from a monetary standpoint, this makes sense. Initially DirectTV offers us all TIVO and then takes it away and now we are all disappointed with the R15 so we all go out and spend $15-20 a month more to get the TIVO back!! Looks to me like maybe there's a lot more than $1 a month here....and DirecTV gives us all "less" for our money and keeps their prices where they are!! It's really a double screwing!

Would appreciate any comebacks on compatibility....


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## John T Smith (Jun 17, 2004)

SO much wrong information !!!

DirecTv and Tivo parted ways about a year ago... so good luck finding a new, or even a used, DirecTv Tivo

The DTivo has 2 DirecTv tuners, so... if you have 2 input coax... you may watch one and record another... and a DTivo works with NOTHING ELSE AT ALL, only the DirecTv signal

More info here
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=332593


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## Dante101 (Aug 1, 2003)

I'm kinda confused here. You say you just got an R15 because "your old hard drive crapped out." So what did you have before? If it wasn't an R15, I'm assuming you had a Tivo before.

I'm assuming this because you speak as if everything on the R15 is new and different. So if that's the case, you must have had a DirecTV Tivo previously.

And if you had a DirecTV Tivo, then you already know how it has dual tuners and you can watch one show while recording another, etc...

Is that what you're asking, or do I have that messed up?

As for buying a Tivo - I would definitely recommend it. Look on ebay or buy one from weaknees.com (some people still report finding DirecTV Tivos at their local Walmart/Best Buy/Circuit City, but that seems rare). Just make sure you buy a "DirecTV Tivo" and not a "normal" Tivo. Buy one that was designed to work with DirecTV. 

Or you can buy a replacement hard drive for your old unit (assuming it was a Tivo). Again, from either Weaknees or you can Google information on doing it yourself...


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

jobfather said:


> SO, I am considering buying a TIVO....I just need to be certain of compatibility. The R15 has dual tuners....the TIVO website says one cannot watch one channel while recording another with DTV even with the Tivo DT....can anyone out there advise me on this?


*Do not* confuse these three units:

(1) Tivo DT - a dual-tuner STANDALONE standard definition Tivo DVR with services provided by Tivo, Inc. and has no affiliation with DirecTV. Pay montly DVR fee to Tivo, Inc. To record from satellite you need to have a receiver from DirecTV (see note below about satellite and dual tuners - it won't work).

(2) The R15 - the currently marketed (by DirecTV) standard definition non-Tivo DVR with integrated dual-tuner DirecTV receiver. Pay monthly DVR fee to DirecTV.

(3) What is informally called a "DTivo" (a standard definition DirecTV receiver with dual tuners integrated with a Tivo-based DVR). This is the unit that is discussed right here in this very forum. The R10 was the final model of this breed; the other "Series 2" DTivos are listed here. DirecTV will still activate even though they no longer sell or market them. Pay monthly DVR fee to DirecTV.

From the Tivo website - about the DT Tivo recording sources permitted:

_Record from two basic cable channels, or one basic cable and one digital cable channel, at once. Does not support recording from two digital cable or satellite channels at once. Supports recording from cable and satellite sources only; does not support recording from over-the-air antenna._

If you want to use DirecTV as the source _and_ you want a Tivo based unit _and_ you want dual tuners the Tivo DT won't do the job - you need to find a used/refurb/NOS Series 2 DTivo box.


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## jobfather (Dec 23, 2006)

For Smith, Dante and gooney...

I had a Hughes SD DVR120...dual tuner, TIVO. My R15 is same unit but no TIVO. I do want TIVO but have since discoverd that Series 2 TIVO units will not allow you to watch one digital signal and record another so that is not a solution. Don't know how TIVO is doing well without this!! What's the point of having two tuners????

I guess I will have to find a used unit and either buy it repaired or have someone repair it for me or even just put in a new hard drive. My old unit will not reformat....it just sat for 24 hours with the red light blinking all that time.

Thanks for the info!!
Jobfather


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

jobfather said:


> What's the point of having two tuners????


If you have analog cable or over-the-air then the dual-tuner standalone Tivo does a fine job. If you have digital-only cable or DBS then it's not so hot.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

goony said:


> If you have analog cable or over-the-air then the dual-tuner standalone Tivo does a fine job. If you have digital-only cable or DBS then it's not so hot.


The Dual-tuner standalone TiVo doesn't do over-the-air. (Blame the FCC)


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> The Dual-tuner standalone TiVo doesn't do over-the-air. (Blame the FCC)


Wow, that leaves you with... well, not many options.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

goony said:


> I was shocked to find this post on one of DirecTV's technical forums by one of the "Guides", which I'm guessing means that they work for DirecTV:
> 
> _As to your R15 problems, I would like to offer some suggestions. From your comments, it appears that you have made some extensive use of the search function, and I'm going to guess that you also schedule recordings that way - i.e., autorecords. Based on many posts, from many users, in several forums, that appears to be one of the most common usage patterns that contributes to problems.
> 
> ...


Hey goony, I realise that you have a vendetta against R-15 and DirecTV in general, but try to post something that you are familiar with. Like useful suggestions on how to hack DTiVo or something. From your post it is painfully obvious that you have no idea how R-15 works nor do you have any personal experience of using it. Search feature and autorecordings used to have some bugs in it early on, but by now they work just fine. Search used to be slow, but last update made search feature work even faster than DTiVo wishlist search. I missed more recordings on my DTiVos last week (due to what appears to be corrupted guide data feed http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4715600#post4715600) than I missed in a year on R-15.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

goony said:


> Wow, that leaves you with... well, not many options.


the series 3?

the series 2 single tuner?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

samo said:


> But the one thing that makes me consider dropping TiVo is IR remote.


Why don't you just get a PowerMID on ebay for $15?


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

mattack said:


> Why don't you just get a PowerMID on ebay for $15?


Remote extender still requires me to point the IR remote at the IR receiver. I still have to check the stupid peanut wich way is up. I absolutely love RF remotes because I don't have to point them at anything, I can use them from any distance and they have better response.
I have been spoiled by Dish RF remotes for over 5 years now, TiVo IR remotes just drive me nuts.


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## akaye (Jan 3, 2004)

iceisles said:


> the stability of the software, and the "vastly better" recording features that do not exist anywhere else.


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## williamp (Apr 12, 2004)

My RCA DirecTV with TiVo blew up. I called to ask about a replacement and they sent me this R15 you're discussing -- without telling me it was not TiVo. Everyone here is correct; it's a piece of junk. You mentioned purchasing a refurbished unit; can you still find these, and where? I'd like to have a combination receiver-TiVo to avoid more complicated hookups and more boxes sitting around. If anyone can help, what are the best options?


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## Dante101 (Aug 1, 2003)

I'm not an expert, but I've dealt with this same problem.

I think the best option would be to get a new DirecTV Tivo from www.weaknees.com (they're a sponsor here, and from my own dealings with them, they're very good).

A less expensive option would be to replace the hard drive of you old unit (define "blew up"). Again, you can get a new hard drive from Weaknees, or you can get directions from the Net on how to buy an "off the shelf" hard drive and create a Tivo image for it yourself.

Alternately, you can go to ebay. I haven't looked, but I hear some people sell DTV Tivos there (but I know it can be "hit or miss" buying from ebay in general).

Hope this helps.


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## williamp (Apr 12, 2004)

Like an idiot, I followed the instructions of the DirecTV folks and got rid of the "blown up" unit, so I can't do anything with this. (It was freezing on a menu, moving for a second or two, freezing again for a while, etc.) I've looked over www.weaknees.com and am probably going to buy a refurbished unit and send this piece of junk receiver back. Thanks for the tip; I would never have found this place otherwise. While I love TiVo, it has always been a tool, rather than something I get deeply involved with.


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## John T Smith (Jun 17, 2004)

If you do decide to replace the hard drive, more reading at...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=24


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## petersweston (Nov 2, 2006)

goony said:


> I agree that most of this talk belongs in another forum.
> 
> The Tivo/DTivo user is obviously a different kind of DVR user; we see them as being far more than a glorified hard-drive based VCR. And, as forum users we're probably in an even more narrow user catagory of being a techno-centric sort of person.
> 
> ...


Well some folks like caviar ,fine wine, Chateubriand(Directivo) And some folks are happy with tuna, coke and cheeseburgers(All other dvrs) When the day comes And i hope it is not soon I may be FORCED to settle for Tuna,coke and cheeseburgers 

Btw this was a comparison between dvrs!! I like Tuna coke and cheeseburgers. Perhaps i can say porche, ferrari, jaguar (tivo) vs jugo,le car, and a bicycle(all others)


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## akaye (Jan 3, 2004)

goony said:


> I agree that most of this talk belongs in another forum.
> 
> The Tivo/DTivo user is obviously a different kind of DVR user; we see them as being far more than a glorified hard-drive based VCR. And, as forum users we're probably in an even more narrow user catagory of being a techno-centric sort of person.
> 
> ...


I disagree 100%. The Tivo is a successfull product precisely because it is NOT geek-centric. It is workable and works relaibly for grandmas and luddites. The GUI is understandable by a child. It's intuitive for most basic operations and it just works. It is ALSO appealling to geeks, which makes it double good.

The R15 is absolutely "wrong" in any sense, not because of it's features or it's GUI--that's a matter of preference-- but because it doesn't work reliably. It's been out for over a year and still requires frequent reboots (Grandma don't play that) to keep it operating at all.

Feature-wise, for the one or two minor things that people seem to like in the R15 over the Tivo, seem horribly pale and insignificant compared to it's glaring failures and ommissions. Picture in Guide? Great, so you can not pay attention to the corner rather than not paying attention to the background. One click record from guide? Great...that ONE EXTRA click to say "ok" on the Tivo is a real monster, sure. :down:


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

A lot of people seem to like to trash TIVO's UI by calling it "primitive" or what not. To me, the TIVO UI is one of the best UIs I've used. As a software developer, I prefer a minimalist approach to UI design. I'm convinced thatthe old DOS "menu" applications had the best UI. I don't like or need a lot of flashy graphics going on. I just want to be able to quickly assess what the unit can do and appreciate when menu options are layed out in a logical manner.

The TIVO UI is a minimalist UI. The only thing that could make it better would be an option to put the entire TIVO UI on a tablet PC which controls the television and by doing so to remove all of the TIVO UI options from the television screen altogether.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

The one major thing that I never liked about the TiVo UI... and have gotten very "used" to now with the DVR+ GUI...

When you want to do anything other then look at the guide.
You lose the Audio and Video of what is playing in the background.

So if you are doing something "time intesive" such a search, setting up multiple SP's, reorganizing SP's ect... you don't even have "audio" going, except for the bloops and bleeps.

Where in the DVR+... there are only a few screens (usually test/setup screens), where you lose the picture and audio of the live broadcast.

This came in handy last night, when I had the bowl game as background noise.. and I was setting up 24, search for American Idol, do some keyword searches for a few other shows... I was able to see and hear what was going on with the game.

Yes, I know you can "pause" it with TiVo... but for sporting events and other shows that you are not "glued" too, this is a great alternative.

I like the one line guide to be able to search for shows, while my wife is still watching what ever is playing. 

As for most UI's go... everyone has their own appriciate of features they like, and what they get "used" to. There is no one perfect GUI for everyone.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I agree with you Earl, but...

The absolute perfect UI and the one they use in Heaven right now is this one...

+ It includes an minimalist text-only UI on a 1900x1280 LCD screen (okay maybe a nice textured background is behind the UI) and which sits on your coffee table and controls the television.

+ It responds to touch screen, wireless keyboard, mouse, joystick and/or voice operate commands.

+ All UI options do not appear on the television. The only thing you see on the television screen is the audio and video of the television and if it is paused then it is paused. (Except the user could choose to display a screen saver application on the television screen after so much time has gone by and there would be a few to choose from.)

It could not get any more perfect than that. That's my opinion.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

BillyT2002 said:


> I agree with you Earl, but...
> 
> The absolute perfect UI and the one they use in Heaven right now is this one...
> 
> ...


What happens if are missing that "wireless device", and have lost your voice...


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> What happens if are missing that "wireless device", and have lost your voice...


You switch your input an OTA A/V source and you dig out your original television remote control and go back to watching television the old fashioned way until such a time as you find the "wireless device" and/or get your voice back, of course.


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## bearymore (Jan 20, 2002)

akaye said:


> I disagree 100%. The Tivo is a successfull product precisely because it is NOT geek-centric. It is workable and works relaibly for grandmas and luddites. The GUI is understandable by a child. It's intuitive for most basic operations and it just works. It is ALSO appealling to geeks, which makes it double good.


This is exactly right. Remember ReplayTV? When I first considered getting a Tivo in the early days, its only competitor was ReplayTV. I remember that I preferred the RPTV user interface because it seemed less "cute" and more technically sophisticated. I got a Tivo because it was obvious by that point which machine was going to survive and why. Tivo was a simple consumer product, RPTV was a technofreak's toy.

The same can be said about the IPod. Why is that synonomous with portable music players? Precisely because of its design and utterly simple user interface. I have an older Nomad MP3 player. It has 8 buttons and a control wheel with play, FF etc. Way too complicated compared with the IPod's single control wheel and single (hold) button.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

bearymore said:


> This is exactly right. Remember ReplayTV? When I first considered getting a Tivo in the early days, its only competitor was ReplayTV. I remember that I preferred the RPTV user interface because it seemed less "cute" and more technically sophisticated. I got a Tivo because it was obvious by that point which machine was going to survive and why. Tivo was a simple consumer product, RPTV was a technofreak's toy.
> 
> The same can be said about the IPod. Why is that synonomous with portable music players? Precisely because of its design and utterly simple user interface. I have an older Nomad MP3 player. It has 8 buttons and a control wheel with play, FF etc. Way too complicated compared with the IPod's single control wheel and single (hold) button.


And really.. what is so complicated about the DVR+ GUI... that makes it "that" difficult to work with.

To playback a show: List Button. Highlight Show, Hit Play
To scheduled a recording: Guide (2x), Find show in Guide, Hit Record
To Search: Menu->Search Fill in the information (nearly identical to TiVo)

Is the TiVo GUI the best because it uses a "full screen mode", instead of floating menu's ?

Or is "difficult" because it is "so" different then the TiVo interface, that people haven't gotten "used" to it.

Just like people sware on other products GUI's... like IPods... I personal can't stand iTunes and iPods GUIs... doesn't make them bad or good, just that I don't like them. Mac vs Windows... GUI differences..

Remember when this new fanagled thing came out called a "mouse"... people complained left and right because they couldn't figure out how to use it.

Yes, there are things as BAD GUI designes.. flat out bad designes. 
But at least in these cases (DVR+ vs TiVo) this is more of preferences and things people are "used" to, rather then a core GUI design flaw... IMHO.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> And really.. what is so complicated about the DVR+ GUI... that makes it "that" difficult to work with.


I don't know what makes it so complicated or even feel complicated. I know I prefer the Tivo one greatly over the DVR+.

The one thing I will say is I have never had someone sit down at a Tivo who couldn't easily figure it out. I can't say the same for the DVR+. I still have trouble using it so I tend not to. There was and is no learning curve that I have found with the Tivo. If I can show my technologically illiterate father how to use a Tivo in five minutes when this is the same person who has notebook cards on his desk telling step by step how to connect to the internet and get to a specific site, then this tells me the Tivo GUI isn't complicated. When I still have to help him navigate to certain sites, yet I rarely get a call other than a basic question such as why isn't a show listed yet to record, this tells me it is easy to use.


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## John T Smith (Jun 17, 2004)

Not an R15, but we were on Comcast cable DVR for a year while our new house was being built

Yes, the GUI is different... but I was able to quickly figure out how to set a season pass (wife had problems with this, but she also couldn't figure out how to get a VCR, when we still used one, to stop flashing 00:00) so the GUI was not a major factor to me

The ONE thing that is clearly better (to both wife and I) and that when fast forwarding through commercials with the DTivo, pressing the play key when a "preview scene" appears causes the actual playback to drop back a second or two... so you are much more likely to start playback where you want, at the beginning of the show

The Comcast DVR (and, I've read, the R15) do not have that simple feature... so I was constantly over-shooting the resumption of the recorded show and having to rewind a bit to re-start properly

That one feature... plus the fact that DirecTv costs less for the same number of channels... is why we are both SO happy to be back with DirecTv after a year

Yes, I am upset with DirecTv and their lack of quality control right now... but this will, hopefully, be fixed "soon" and we will all be happy with DTivo again


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## Rigaudon (Jan 4, 2007)

i just bought my 4th DTV TIVO DVR at my local Wal Mart in New Britain, CT. They had 4 r10's alongside the newer R15's all at $98.

i've been watching them to see if they'd ever clearance them and when they didn't I finally broke down and bought one. 3 are still there.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> I don't know what makes it so complicated or even feel complicated. I know I prefer the Tivo one greatly over the DVR+.
> 
> The one thing I will say is I have never had someone sit down at a Tivo who couldn't easily figure it out. I can't say the same for the DVR+. I still have trouble using it so I tend not to. There was and is no learning curve that I have found with the Tivo. If I can show my technologically illiterate father how to use a Tivo in five minutes when this is the same person who has notebook cards on his desk telling step by step how to connect to the internet and get to a specific site, then this tells me the Tivo GUI isn't complicated. When I still have to help him navigate to certain sites, yet I rarely get a call other than a basic question such as why isn't a show listed yet to record, this tells me it is easy to use.


I have never used an R15 but I assume it is the same GUI as the HR20 and I have found that to be very easy to use and figure out. My wife even picked it up with no problems. I hardly had to explain it to her and that is saying a lot. She has trouble figuring out how to put phone numbers in her cell phone.


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## nx211 (Jul 21, 2006)

John T Smith said:


> ...Yes, I am upset with DirecTv and their lack of quality control right now... but this will, hopefully, be fixed "soon"...


Was curious what you meant by DTV's current "lack of quality control" and your comment "will hopefully, be fixed "soon"?

Are you referring to a soon-to-be-released update to the R15 and/or overall less compression applied in general to DTV's programming as "their lack of quality control" that "will hopefully be fixed soon"?

I have an R10 and even with a signal strength in the low 90s on the two "test" transponders, I'm not really that happy with all the compression artifacts that abound on most/all of DTV's channels and I would consider their current overly compressed channels as a lack of quality control that I wouldn't think possible of improving anytime soon.

What good is a reliable DVR like the R10 or an improved R15 when it comes alongside with mosquito noise and macroblocking?

nx211


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## John T Smith (Jun 17, 2004)

I do not have an R15, I have 4 DTivos

My comment about DirecTv's lack of quality control is concering "whatever" they have done to cause all the DTivo problems... and especially the fact that, according to my recent telephone call, they don't even know what they DID to cause the problems

As far as the signal itself... I have signal strength in the 80's to 90 on ALL of the transponders, and do not see any problems other than those discussed in a few hundred other messages about season pass problems and sudden restarts... nothing about signal problems at all for me


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## ironchef (Dec 27, 2002)

Dante101 said:


> If the R15's were solid and reliable, and if they fixed the limitations to the Wishlist search, I probably wouldn't mind switching. Here are some things I like about the R15:
> 
> I like the fact that their remote turns on/off the unit & TV with one button.


gee, my peanut turns on the TV and the receiver when I hit the power button, I can't think of why you would turn off a Tivo.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> When you want to do anything other then look at the guide.
> You lose the Audio and Video of what is playing in the background.


Three years ago when I left Dish and moved to DirecTV/DTivos that was one of the features I thought I would miss from my old Dishplayer 7200: A 'live' thumnail and audio while in the menus, and the other would be losing my west coast networks.

In my case, it turns out that I don't miss either of them one bit. Well, the thumbnail live TV and audio I don't miss at all, but it was nice to see west coast local news occasionally.


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## extension 721 (Sep 29, 2005)

Billy66 said:


> You realize that DTV competes against cable companies don't you? They've got a long way to drop just to reach average in their industry. Oblivion keeps getting pushed lower and lower.


Cable and Sat oberae with significant overlap, but each also has "niche" customers who don't have a choice.

Anyone in the shadow of skyscrapers, mountains, or uncuttable trees that block the sats can't get sat service.

Anyone in rural areas sees cable service that is either nonexistant, or extremely unreliable.

Anyone elsewhere has a choice. Remember that DBS sat TV was originally cooked up by cable co's that were looknig for a way to sell cable where cable couldn't be sold. They probably never dreamed it would catch on in non-rural areas...and challenge cable monopolies in cities, and suburbs where cable is cheapest to run.

Aside from that, directv still whomps the biggest cable co's when customer satisfaction is gagued. Only some smaller "lean mean" companies do better, so they must be doing SOMETHING right.


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## akaye (Jan 3, 2004)

John T Smith said:


> The ONE thing that is clearly better (to both wife and I) and that when fast forwarding through commercials with the DTivo, pressing the play key when a "preview scene" appears causes the actual playback to drop back a second or two... so you are much more likely to start playback where you want, at the beginning of the show
> [. . .]
> The Comcast DVR (and, I've read, the R15) do not have that simple feature...


Apparently, Overshoot Correction is one of Tivo's PATENTED features.

Some folks love it, other hate it. Once I got used to it, I missed it when it wasn't there. On the R15, using the '6-sec jump back' button rather than the play button to come out of fast foward yields a similar effect.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

John T Smith said:


> The ONE thing that is clearly better (to both wife and I) and that when fast forwarding through commercials with the DTivo, pressing the play key when a "preview scene" appears causes the actual playback to drop back a second or two... so you are much more likely to start playback where you want, at the beginning of the show


Hit the replay/skip back button instead of play when coming out of a fast forward. Same thing as the autocorrect. And actually it's better because if it didn't jump back enough just hit the replay button another time or two until you're at the point you want.


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## akaye (Jan 3, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> Hit the replay/skip back button instead of play when coming out of a fast forward. Same thing as the autocorrect. And actually it's better because if it didn't jump back enough just hit the replay button another time or two until you're at the point you want.


Didn't I just say that? 

I don't think it's better. Moving my finger a 1/4 inch to the left was never a big hassle when needed, but more importantly the 6-sec jump back on the r-15 STILL isn't reliably 6 seconds. On the Tivo, once you're used to to it, you usually get it right. On the R15, it had better be easy to press another time because you're never sure where it's going to drop you off.


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## bearymore (Jan 20, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> And really.. what is so complicated about the DVR+ GUI... that makes it "that" difficult to work with.


It's not that it's complicated, it is just not intuitive. This is because sometimes the same buttons have different functions depending on the context (like the often mysterious seeming three color buttons on the remote). Some functions are buried in submenus that are not accessible from all locations from which the typical user might look for them, and so on. Then there's the remote. Lots of little buttons placed seemingly haphazardly with similar sizes and shapes which makes it easy to do one thing when you've meant to do something else.

Once you figure out the logic of the R15, it's fine and even easy to use. However, how many times have you had to sit there and puzzle out where a function was located that you hadn't used in a while? Doesn't happen with the Tivo interface -- with the Tivo, even though you can forget the convenient shortcuts, there is always a straightforward way to reach any function the machine has through the menu system.

These kinds of issues are well known among human factors experts. A very popular treatment of them is in a book by Donald Norman called "The Design of Everyday Things." Norman was a professor at UCSD and the book is considered a classic in the field. His treatment of door handles makes the book worth the price.


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## tigersfanjj (Oct 23, 2005)

bearymore said:


> Then there's the remote. Lots of little buttons placed seemingly haphazardly with similar sizes and shapes which makes it easy to do one thing when you've meant to do something else.


The R15s now come with the RC32 remote. It's larger than the older, smaller remotes and the buttons are larger than a tivo remote. As for the layout of the remote, I guess it's user preference. Personally, I like the layout of the RC32 better than the tivo remote. Among other things on the remote, I especially like the fact that I know where the tv power button is when I am in a dark room.



bearymore said:


> Once you figure out the logic of the R15, it's fine and even easy to use. However, how many times have you had to sit there and puzzle out where a function was located that you hadn't used in a while? Doesn't happen with the Tivo interface -- with the Tivo, even though you can forget the convenient shortcuts, there is always a straightforward way to reach any function the machine has through the menu system.


I think this is also user preference. I sometimes find myself trying to "figure out" how to get to the simplest things on my Dtivo, such as testing the satellite signal strength. The only times I get puzzled with the R15 GUI is when I am trying to access a function that I haven't used in a long time. Even then, it is usually easier for me to get it figured out than on the Dtivo.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

tigersfanjj said:


> I think this is also user preference. I sometimes find myself trying to "figure out" how to get to the simplest things on my Dtivo, such as testing the satellite signal strength. The only times I get puzzled with the R15 GUI is when I am trying to access a function that I haven't used in a long time. Even then, it is usually easier for me to get it figured out than on the Dtivo.


I guess that just doesn't make sense to me. I have heard people not liking the Tivo interface for its simplicity but never heard someone who had a difficult time navigating it.

Other than the first time I set it up I have never checked my satellite signal strength but found it without problems just now. At the same time what other functions are you talking about? I can't think of that many functions on the DVR+ or the Tivo so I can't think of anything that I would have a difficult time trying to find. You have the record functions, the playback functions, and the setup functions. Am I missing something?


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## tigersfanjj (Oct 23, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> I guess that just doesn't make sense to me. I have heard people not liking the Tivo interface for its simplicity but never heard someone who had a difficult time navigating it.
> 
> Other than the first time I set it up I have never checked my satellite signal strength but found it without problems just now. At the same time what other functions are you talking about? I can't think of that many functions on the DVR+ or the Tivo so I can't think of anything that I would have a difficult time trying to find. You have the record functions, the playback functions, and the setup functions. Am I missing something?


To get to the signal strength meter on the Dtivo, you first have to go into the "Messages and Setup" screen while in the menu. That in itself is annoying to me because I usually overlook the setup part at first. Then you have two options that can easily be mistaken for the menus where the signal strength meter would be (system test and system information) and the one where they actually are (setup). Then when you finally do find the "Test Satellite Signal" option and you hit select it takes you to yet another screen that you have to select "Yes, Test Satellite Signal Now".

While in the menu on the R15, you select settings, then setup, and you see the Info & Test tab with the Satellite tab right under it. You select satellite and it pops up the options with "View Signal Strength" on top. You hit select and, oh my goodness, you see the signal strength.

That is why I said it was user preference earlier. You are used to the Dtivo, so it is probably easier for you. I've gotten used to my R15 because it is now my main unit, so it is easier for me to get around the menus on it.


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## bearymore (Jan 20, 2002)

tigersfanjj said:


> To get to the signal strength meter on the Dtivo, you first have to go into the "Messages and Setup" screen while in the menu. That in itself is annoying to me because I usually overlook the setup part at first. Then you have two options that can easily be mistaken for the menus where the signal strength meter would be (system test and system information) and the one where they actually are (setup).
> 
> That is why I said it was user preference earlier. You are used to the Dtivo, so it is probably easier for you. I've gotten used to my R15 because it is now my main unit, so it is easier for me to get around the menus on it.


On my DTivo, you get a signal strength reading by pressing "System Test". It gives you the strength of the signal from whatever transponders the machine is currently receiving. The strength test you are talking about allows you to browse through the transponders at will. Since it will interrupt whatever is recording, it asks you if you are sure you want to do it.

As for the remote, the RC32 looks fairly uncluttered. However, it still has the problem of the four colored buttons that do different things in different places. This is fundamentally confusing -- the user has to learn and remember that the red button does x in menu a and y in menu b. This should be much more intuitive. As for the Tivo remote, the original Series 1 peanut was excellent. The series 2 remote is not nearly so good. For example it moved the power switch from a relatively large button in the upper left to a small button right under the similarly sized jump back button. As a result, I've more than once turned off the TV when I meant to jump back. They made some other less than brilliant changes as well. Luckily, my series 1 peanut still works on my series 2 machine.


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## mwhitted (Feb 6, 2002)

iceisles said:


> ...the R15 is the single worst DVR ever manufactured in the history of the universe....


Ever use an "original" E*/MS "DishPlayer"?  Or E*'s first attempt at THEIR own DVR? (I don't recall the model. x500-something.) I haven't had the pleasure of the R15 experience, but I can't IMAGINE it being worse than either one of these.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

mwhitted said:


> Ever use an "original" E*/MS "DishPlayer"?  Or E*'s first attempt at THEIR own DVR? (I don't recall the model. x500-something.)


Oh, I still have scars from that thing!  I had a Dishplayer 7200 (17GB), the Dishplayer 7100 was a whopping 10GB of recording capacity.

The user interface was very intuitive, IMHO - it's just that the software acted like a cat in a dog show anytime they made a change in guide data. Somewhere in these TCFs I have a longer post about that... that... "thing". It had a rewind buffer as large as the free disk space; you could rewind the channel for hours. If you pushed RECORD it wouldn't record anything from the buffer, it would start recording live right at that poing.

You could also put a larger (upt to 137 GB) bare drive in it and it would "phone home", get a software load via the phone line, then a final load from satellite and you had a spanky-new unit with much better recording capacity. I sold mine on eBay for enough to get two DTivos and have some $ left over.


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## mhallerbach (Dec 24, 2004)

iceisles said:


> When I called to activate my Series 2 Tivo last night, the DirecTV rep. asked why I was swapping out receivers. I kid you not, he stated, "The R15 is superior to Tivo." He rambled on about the speed of the UI, the stability of the software, and the "vastly better" recording features that do not exist anywhere else. I started laughing on the phone and the guy asked what was funny. When I told him that the R15 is the single worst DVR ever manufactured in the history of the universe, the line went dead.
> 
> Do you all think DirecTV really believes the garbage they are telling customers? Nothing is better than a genuine Tivo, and nothing likely ever will be. They really shot themselves in the foot when they decided to make their own units, and though I am remaining with DirecTV (happily, with a Tivo), I hope that many jump ship to send them a message.
> 
> This is just a bit of a rant, and feel free to comment as you see fit.


DirecTV is in LA LA land. I just upgrade to HD and went to Dish because their HD DVR(VIP622) is better than DirectVs HR-250, but I am really missing my old R10. The Dish has quite a few bugs still too. Tivo's definitely got the best interface, but their price for their equipment and service is too high so I had to go the other route.


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## Cmmsh (Jan 2, 2007)

As a person who has both, they are both fairly easy to use. (TiVo very easy to use -- even for my girlfriend who can barely figure out how to turn on the TV. The R15, she has no clue.)

But, for some reason, TiVo is sort of like your best friend coming to visit, while the R15 is more like your nagging aunt who always seems to be the last one to leave.

After having both for more than a year, there is NOTHING about the R15 I find more appealing than my TiVo. Absolutely NOTHING. And even after reading this forum, I can't figure out what features some people like -- besides very minor ones -- that make the R15 better in any way.

Therefore, I pray my TiVos keep working until the day DirecTV forces me to use something else. That will be a very sad day, and even one that would have me contemplate going back to -- gulp -- cable.


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## Cmmsh (Jan 2, 2007)

bearymore said:


> The series 2 remote is not nearly so good. For example it moved the power switch from a relatively large button in the upper left to a small button right under the similarly sized jump back button.


That is the ONLY thing I don't like about my TiVo.


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## tigersfanjj (Oct 23, 2005)

bearymore said:


> On my DTivo, you get a signal strength reading by pressing "System Test". It gives you the strength of the signal from whatever transponders the machine is currently receiving. The strength test you are talking about allows you to browse through the transponders at will. Since it will interrupt whatever is recording, it asks you if you are sure you want to do it.


I'd understand it asking if it were actually performing a scheduled recording, but if it's only using the buffers, why? I mean, if you've went that far just to get to it, you probably won't say "Ooh, I better not access this or I'll lose my buffers."

And there are other places in the menu where it makes you go that extra step to get into it but I can't get to my R10 at the moment to give an example.


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