# Game of Thrones "The Lion and the Rose" 4/13/14 S4E2



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

YES!

Joy and happiness. Best wedding EVER. 

Mellisandre's curse is going strong. Robb, now Joffrey. Greyjoy is next.

I don't get how Tyrion can be accused of this murder. He didn't want to be the cup bearer. It's a big stretch to blame this on him.

Who is next in line? Joffrey's little brother?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I got the episode title wrong. It should be "The Lion and the Rose". I've asked the moderators to help change it. Sorry about that!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Great episode. Was there a single conversation that didn't have a dozen political implications or undertones? I love Lady Olenna more every time she opens her mouth.

BTW, I think the episode was called "The Lion and The Rose". 

ETA: Or what Anubys said while I was typing...


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Who is next in line? Joffrey's little brother?


Yeah, Tommen. I think that was him sitting at the next table. Blonde, teen, innocent looking. I think the last time we even saw him he was a kid.


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## stark (Dec 31, 2003)

I'm a little disappointed that we never saw a real Tywin-Joffrey showdown.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Words of advice: If your aspiration is to be king, don't marry Margaery. Because that _never _ends well. 

It looked like for a moment Joffrey might be a little redeemed, when he got the book from Tyrion. Well, not REdeemed, since he was a useless waste of oxygen since birth. But it looked like he might be a little deemed, with his relatively gracious acceptance of a gift that he clearly disdained.

But then he undeemed himself with the sword.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

astrohip said:


> Yeah, Tommen. I think that was him sitting at the next table. Blonde, teen, innocent looking. I think the last time we even saw him he was a kid.


And, according to Tyrion, Tommen and Myrcella are fine children, unlike their insane older brother.


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## jollygrunt777 (Feb 28, 2012)

I wanted still more by the time the credits came on. That 60 minutes just flew by.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

That made me so very happy! :up:


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

It was only about 53 minutes long I think. I was bummed we didn't get our last 7 minutes! Still they pushed things along pretty well on a number of fronts. We book readers have been waiting for this one . Still so much more to happen this season... yikes!


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> I don't get how Tyrion can be accused of this murder. He didn't want to be the cup bearer. It's a big stretch to blame this on him.


I'm sure Cersei would say it was a crime of opportunity. Tyrion must have had the poison on him and when Joffrey kept goading him and the opportunity presented itself, Tyrion took the opportunity.

Of course, anyone smarter than Cersei would realize that Tyrion is much too clever to commit murder in such a way that he is so obviously the prime suspect.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

OK, now it is time for an episode of CSI:Westeros

We all know Tyrion is too smart to have done it.
I don't think the Tyrells would do it (although Joffrey's glass was on their table when it got poisoned -- assuming the poison was in the wine) at least not before Margery was pregnant.
Prince Oberon of Dorne is a thought, if you assume Joffrey wasn't the target.
Brianne, as payback for killing Catelyn? 

One more thing, after Joffrery hacked the pie there was a cut of a dead bird, presumably one killed by Joffrey's sword when "opening" the pie, what if it was just an accident (or divine retribution from the Red God)

Oh yeah and "Ding Dong the ******'s dead"!!


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## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

Maybe it was the fat jester? He didn't seem that shocked and seemed to have an exit plan.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Long Live the King ... D'Oh!


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

tiassa said:


> OK, now it is time for an episode of CSI:Westeros
> 
> We all know Tyrion is too smart to have done it.
> I don't think the Tyrells would do it (although Joffrey's glass was on their table when it got poisoned -- assuming the poison was in the wine) at least not before Margery was pregnant.
> ...


Yeah, there had to be reason why the camera paused on the dead dove, but it looked chopped, not poisoned.

The word is that the clues to whodunit were there.

_Sansa_ picked up the cup from under the table! But neither of them could have planned it because they didn't know that Jeffy was going to make Tyrion handle the cup.

Pycelle is the poison Maester and Cercie dissed him.

Where was Tywin through all of this?

I liked the effect of Jeffy's face getting all veiny. And he sang the end credits?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Wow, had no idea Joffrey was going to be dying so soon. As much as I hated him, that caught me so much by surprise that it wasn't even satisfying.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Words of advice: If your aspiration is to be king, don't marry Margaery. Because that _never _ends well.


I think the rule of thumb in Westeros should be to not get married in general. Which wedding have we seen that has ended well? 



john4200 said:


> I'm sure Cersei would say it was a crime of opportunity. Tyrion must have had the poison on him and when Joffrey kept goading him and the opportunity presented itself, Tyrion took the opportunity.
> 
> Of course, anyone smarter than Cersei would realize that Tyrion is much too clever to commit murder in such a way that he is so obviously the prime suspect.


I think Cersei is the only one who truly cares about finding Joffrey's murderer. Everyone else has go through the painful motions of pretending to want "justice for the king". 

I guess Tyrion cares insofar as he is a suspect, but hopefully you are right that others will realize that there's no way he would have been so stupid as to kill Joffrey in such an obvious manner.



tiassa said:


> I don't think the Tyrells would do it (although Joffrey's glass was on their table when it got poisoned -- assuming the poison was in the wine) at least not before Margery was pregnant.


I doubt Margaery would have been a part of it, but I do wonder about her grandmother. She came to some arrangement with Tywin that resulted in him pushing Cersei to marry Loras. What if part of the arrangement was to work together to take out Joffrey?

What if the grandmother actually cared more about Margaery than power? (I know, I know. Such people are rare in Westeros. ) Or at least, was willing to sacrifice Margaery's position as Queen for the position that Loras would have with Cersei. With Joffrey dead, his younger brother is now king. But who is once again Queen Regent? I'm assuming Cersei...who is now promised to be wed to Loras.

(Oh wow, I just had a strange thought. Cersei ordered Maester Pycelle to feed the leftovers to the dogs. My thought when seeing that scene was that she was merely making a power play to let Margaery know who was really in charge. But what if she knew she wasn't going to lose her Queen Regent status? Could Cersei hate Tyrion so much that she would sacrifice Joffrey to frame him for murder? Or perhaps she merely loves power that much, and figured Joffrey was a lost cause with Margaery. Given her comments about her love for her children, I'm not so sure. But what if she took Tyrion's comment to heart that she got 2 out of 3 right?)

Tywin would, of course, be glad not to have a Tyrell as Queen, plus the added benefit of not having to clean up Joffrey's messes.

I also wonder if any of those awkward looks from people while Joffrey was tormenting Tyrion were not because of what Joffrey was doing, but because they knew what was going to happen, and did not intend for Tyrion to be implicated. If it was someone who considered him an ally, that person might be in the awkward position of having to redirect suspicion from Tyrion without implicating him or herself.

It will be interesting to see how many people use Joffrey's death as a excuse for their own personal gain under the guise of caring about who killed him. I suspect this investigation will set the record for most number of people who care about it for reasons other than actually finding real answers.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

GRRM gets to write one episode per season, and this was his offering for S4. Surprised there wasn't any nudity.

Based on the way the camera lingered on the dead bird in the "pie," I have to believe it was the pie that was poisoned and not the wine. But did anyone else take a bite of the pie?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Wow, had no idea Joffrey was going to be dying so soon. As much as I hated him, that caught me so much by surprise that it wasn't even satisfying.


Yeah, I was hoping Arya would get the pleasure. She better hurry up, and get her mad assassin skillz before anyone else from her list goes. The rest of them aren't what one would consider to be spring chickens.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> I doubt Margaery would have been a part of it, but I do wonder about her grandmother. She came to some arrangement with Tywin that resulted in him pushing Cersei to marry *Lawrence*. What if part of the arrangement was to work together to take out Joffrey?
> 
> What if the grandmother actually cared more about Margaery than power? (I know, I know. Such people are rare in Westeros. ) Or at least, was willing to sacrifice Margaery's position as Queen for the position that *Lawrence* would have with Cersei. With Joffrey dead, his younger brother is now king. But who is once again Queen Regent? I'm assuming Cersei...who is now promised to be wed to *Lawrence*.


His name is Loras.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> His name is Loras.


Ah, okay. I've correct his name in my post.

I did Google it, but didn't look too deeply for fear of running across spoilers. I guess what Google was showing me was that others had made the same mistake.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Joffrey may be dead but I still want to punch him in the face.

I hope the Theon/Ramsay Snow subplot has a significant reason for being. Those scenes so uncomfortable and so disconnected that I'm tempted to ffwd through them.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I thought it was funny that right after the scene with the Boltons and Theon, they cutaway to Tyrion and Jaimie being served sausages.


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

My wife doesn't really watch the show, but has kind of absorbed it via osmosis by being around most of the time I have it on. About halfway through the wedding, she looks up from her kindle and makes a comment about how awful Joffrey is and that "he needs to go". I was able to hold my tongue the few minutes necessary for the payoff.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Joffrey's wedding will get the meat of the discussion today (which is fine, since it got the meat of the show last night), but anyone have thoughts on Bran's vision? There were a couple of interesting shots in it.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

I think Oberon or Tywin. Although Margaery's grandmother to _save_ Margaery is an interesting theory.

While watching the dwarf entertainment and before Joffrey started picking on Tyrion, I was thinking wouldn't it be neat if (the already steaming) Sansa strolled over and stuck a knife in Joffrey.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> Joffrey's wedding will get the meat of the discussion today (which is fine, since it got the meat of the show last night), but anyone have thoughts on Bran's vision? There were a couple of interesting shots in it.


What are your thoughts? I didn't notice anything interesting.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

It never occurred to me it would be anyone but the fool. Now, he may have been working under someone's orders, but it seemed clear to me that he knew what was going to happen before it happened.

Which also explains the necklace giveaway (which Sansa was wearing, btw).

Margery was wearing a pretty unremarkable necklace given how much her grandmother fussed over the choice!


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> What are your thoughts? I didn't notice anything interesting.


There were two things that stuck out. Both are what I think future visions. One showed the Iron throne, in its hall with the roof missing and snow falling inside.

The other showed King's Landing, sunny and warm, with a dragon's shadow flying across the city.

Is this two possible futures, it one the future and one is the past? If it is two possible futures, does that suggest Bran is meant to play a role in deciding what happens with the White Walkers? Who was the voice Bran heard talking to him?

All good stuff. Great episode.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

the voice said to go north, I think. Which is a little vague since that was the direction they were heading anyway. But then Bran woke up and said he knew where to go. This was absolutely a scene I made a mental note to go back and rewatch carefully.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> There were two things that stuck out. Both are what I think future visions. One showed the Iron throne, in its hall with the roof missing and snow falling inside.


The same thing Dani saw when she went to the house of the undying to rescue her dragons.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

If I recall the voice just said "North"

Dragons flying over the capital yes, I can only assume that Bran will have a role eventually by warging into a Dragon perhaps?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> The same thing Dani saw when she went to the house of the undying to rescue her dragons.


Yep. Totally forgot about that. Just went and rewatched that scene on youtube.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

EW Recap


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## MegaHertz67 (Apr 18, 2005)

"War is war, but killing a man at a wedding...horrid. What sort of Monster would do such a thing?"
Olenna Tyrell

I have 3 questions:

1. Did shae really get away? Somehow I think we see her again. 
2. The fool takes Sansa away while Jeoffrey is choking. "If you want to live, we have to leave." Was he just reading the situation and helping the girl who saved his life? Or what's he part of the plot to kill Jeoffrey. 
3. Was it the pie or the wine. My guess is the pie, because anyone could have drank the wine by mistake. But you knew a selfish little prig like Jeoffrey would want the first serving of pie. After he falls dead, who else would want pie? And was it the whole pie poisoned and that's why the doves were dead? Or was it just his piece that was tainted, and the doves were just another victim of Valyrian steel?

Oh, what the heck...on this day I will ask a forth question. Yes, that seems like the right number. 

4. WTF was that all about when Bran touched the tree. Was that Ned calling to him? So much happened so quickly it was confusing, even with the ability to go back and view again.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Anubys said:


> It never occurred to me it would be anyone but the fool.


I thought the same thing. Now, after reading some other theories in this thread, I'm thinking it very well could have been someone else.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

There are so many who wanted him dead and and were there. The Fool being too obvious but as someone has said, he could have played a part.

I also think it was the pie. After all, they show something inside that could have us believe whatever it was, the doves died from it as well.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

The doves had their heads chopped off by the sword. Hardly a pie-related injury.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> the doves died from it as well.


I think the doves were chopped-up by Joffrey's new sword. But, I think it was the pie that got Joffrey.


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## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Words of advice: If your aspiration is to be king, don't marry Margaery. Because that _never _ends well.
> 
> It looked like for a moment Joffrey might be a little redeemed, when he got the book from Tyrion. Well, not REdeemed, since he was a useless waste of oxygen since birth. But it looked like he might be a little deemed, with his relatively gracious acceptance of a gift that he clearly disdained.
> 
> But then he undeemed himself with the sword.


Yeah, Margaery is like a Cartwright. Every woman those boys married (Ben 3 times!) died.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Loved the exchange between Jaime and Loras

"you'll never marry her"
"neither will you" 

fantastic comeback by Loras :up:


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

goblue97 said:


> I thought the same thing. Now, after reading some other theories in this thread, I'm thinking it very well could have been someone else.


But the speculation is silly. Margery killed him? she just became queen and makes herself not be queen? absurd. The grandmother? to save Margery? just as absurd.

Tywin? why? so he can control the younger brother more easily than Joffrey? Tywin doesn't think that way.

All the suspects people are throwing out win with the status quo, not by turning things upside down.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Anubys said:


> But the speculation is silly. Margery killed him? she just became queen and makes herself not be queen? absurd. *The grandmother? to save Margery? just as absurd*.
> 
> Tywin? why? so he can control the younger brother more easily than Joffrey? Tywin doesn't think that way.
> 
> All the suspects people are throwing out win with the status quo, not by turning things upside down.


Why? It's her granddaughter. Why wouldn't she want to save her.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

My first thought was "Hooray!!!". My second thought was - also "Hooray!!!". My third thought, well enough of that. 

Eventually, after I finished cheering, I thought about sorting through all the people who might want Joff dead. That would be a long list!  The real question is who benefits. That's a much shorter list. I don't have any solid suspects yet, though I'm nearly sure it wasn't any of the Lannisters. Maybe the fool.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

The pie seems a bit reckless since everyone would probably eat from it. Maybe the person who cut the piece for joeffrey?

I wonder if the dogs will die too when they feed them the leftovers.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Silly idea, but what about Shae? Could she have done it?


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

_I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder... for everyone at the head table but Joffrey._

There may have been a hint in the "scenes from next week":


Spoiler



Roughly, Margery's grandmother: We're in a much better position now.
Margery: But I was queen!
Doesn't mean she did it, though.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> Why? It's her granddaughter. Why wouldn't she want to save her.


Her granddaughter was about to become the queen. it's all about power. It's Game of Thrones. Just when the Tyrells are about to capture the throne and her children will become heirs, they kill their meal ticket? did any of the Tyrells ever give any indication that Margery needed help taming the monster?

The only person less likely to have killed Joffrey is Joffrey


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

That poison was introduced earlier in the show. That should make things easier to figure out.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

astrohip said:


> Yeah, Tommen. I think that was him sitting at the next table. Blonde, teen, innocent looking. I think the last time we even saw him he was a kid.


Is there a rule about how young can one be king?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Just to keep things straight in my mind, the younger brother (who I'm assuming is now king) is also the result of Cersei and Jaime's incest? Just minus the crazy?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Yep. All three kids are Jaimie's. How crazy is anyone's guess! They are afterall a product of incest.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> That poison was introduced earlier in the show. That should make things easier to figure out.


when was that? I don't recall this...



Jstkiddn said:


> Just to keep things straight in my mind, the younger brother (who I'm assuming is now king) is also the result of Cersei and Jaime's incest? Just minus the crazy?


Cersei killed the one child that was Robert's. She recounted the story to Cat, telling her that he was sick and died. But I'm positive she killed him.

How is Loche (the one who cut-off Jaime's hand) still alive? I would have thought Tywin would have asked for his head by now.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> That poison was introduced earlier in the show. That should make things easier to figure out.





Anubys said:


> when was that? I don't recall this...


The only poisons I recall are the ones that were given to Cersei during the siege so that she could commit suicide, if needed and the poison wine that the guy tried to give to Dani. Was that Dornish wine? Hmmmmm......


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

tiassa said:


> We all know Tyrion is too smart to have done it.


Yes, but Tyrion knows that know that he's too smart to do it! 

No, I don't think Tyrion did it (he didn't know he was going to be 'cup bearer'). I don't think the Tyrells did it either. My money is either on the prince from Dorne, or Lord Varys. It sounds like exactly the type of shadowy move that Varys would make, and he could be thinking several moves ahead.

Does anyone have a transcript of the episode? I'd like to reexamine Varys's remarks to Tyrion.



tiassa said:


> One more thing, after Joffrery hacked the pie there was a cut of a dead bird, presumably one killed by Joffrey's sword when "opening" the pie, what if it was just an accident (or divine retribution from the Red God)


I really like this idea, although the death looked more like poison than anything caused by accidental ingestion of dead bird parts.


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

I think it is obvious. Cersei did it. She couldn't handle being called "former queen" so she made sure the new girl would not become queen. Though the fact the jester grabbed the Stark girl right away seemed to be like he knew something or maybe just used his smarts to grab her knowing that half man would clearly be pointed at for the crime!


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> I guess Tyrion cares insofar as he is a suspect, but hopefully you are right that others will realize that there's no way he would have been so stupid as to kill Joffrey in such an obvious manner.


There's a bit of interplay here, however, in that Tyrion also has a lot of enemies. A lot of people will probably suspect that he wasn't behind it, but not really care.


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> The only poisons I recall are the ones that were given to Cersei during the siege so that she could commit suicide, if needed and the poison wine that the guy tried to give to Dani. Was that Dornish wine? Hmmmmm......


There's also the poison the old guy tried to kill Melisandre with. He drank some, knowing it would kill him, them tried to get her to drink. It seemed to me like she knew it was poison, but drank anyway, and didn't die.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

This made me laugh from tv.com's recap:


> But my favorite part of the episode was when Joffrey asked the crowd what he should name his sword and people just started shouting out death-metal band names.


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## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

Those pigeons must have crapped a lot while imprisoned in that pie.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I couldn't help but have the line "four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie" running through my head. 


Just seen on Facebook: &#8234;#&#8206;GameOfThrones&#8236; does for weddings what JAWS did for the beach.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

squint said:


> Those pigeons must have crapped a lot while imprisoned in that pie.


Ha!

Nah. Joffrey said the pie was rather dry.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Anubys said:


> But the speculation is silly. Margery killed him? she just became queen and makes herself not be queen? absurd. The grandmother? to save Margery? just as absurd.


I don't recall anyone suggesting that Margaery had anything to do with it. But Olenna was specifically interested in Sansa's real opinion of Joffrey. Even if all she cared about was power, it's possible she figured that Margaery's position as Queen might not last very long if Joffrey ever got tired of her.

Margaery might have thought she could control Joffrey, but did Olenna? Perhaps Tywin gave her assurances that he could keep Cersei under control.



Anubys said:


> Tywin? why? so he can control the younger brother more easily than Joffrey? Tywin doesn't think that way.


So he could get rid of someone who had no business being king. The killing of Ned is what prevented the Lannisters from making peace with the Starks, and ultimately caused them to have to go to the Tyrells for help against Stannis.

At the meeting at the beginning of episode 10 of last season, Tywin commented to Joffrey on how he had been busy finishing the war that Joffrey had started. And he also told him, "A king who has to say, 'I am king,' is no king."

By that point I think Tywin had given up any hope of Joffrey having any kind of leadership skills as king. In his mind, Joffrey was king in title only.

If Tywin was part of the plot to kill Joffrey, his comment to Olenna regarding the expenses could be seen in a new light. Perhaps it wasn't so much that he cared about wasting money on a wedding as it was that he knew this particular wedding would be a waste. And if Olenna also knew, her response to him could be interpreted as, "Come on. How often do we get an excuse to have a celebration? Let's enjoy ourselves even though we know the marriage won't last to the end of the wedding."


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Tywin? why? so he can control the younger brother more easily than Joffrey? Tywin doesn't think that way.


I disagree. That's exactly how Tywin thinks. Joffrey was unstable, and as a result, was a risk to the Lannister's position as rulers. Joffrey's younger brother seems like a much more level headed person, and would be much more easily controlled. I doubt that Tywin murdered Joffrey, but I certainly wouldn't put it past him.

I liked that we got to see some more of Lord Bolton in this episode. He's an interesting character, and seems to be fairly intelligent. As I suspected, he wasn't thrilled with what his bastard had done to Theon. I'm pretty amazed how thoroughly brainwashed Theon has become. I was half expecting him to slit the dude's throat when giving him the shave. Perhaps he's just pretending and biding his time to fully take his revenge on the Boltons. He was visibly quite upset when told of Robb's death.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

kaszeta said:


> There's a bit of interplay here, however, in that Tyrion also has a lot of enemies. A lot of people will probably suspect that he wasn't behind it, but not really care.


Yeah, it will be interesting to see how each character's self interests come into play here.

Even amongst those who care, how many will be afraid to speak, especially if they have thoughts on who might have set him up.

Another possibility is that nobody will think Tyrion did it except Cersei, and that will push her to take her own personal revenge.

On another note, I'm curious whether cutting a pie with one's sword was a tradition, or just Joffrey being Joffrey. Perhaps Joffrey's sword was laced with poison, and cutting the pie transferred the poison to his piece.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> I couldn't help but have the line "four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie" running through my head.


I had that thought this morning as well ... but the better recollection I also had was my favorite scene from "The Court Jester":


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

squint said:


> Those pigeons must have crapped a lot while imprisoned in that pie.


The true culprit(s) revealed!


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

it was interesting to watch who was and who wasn't enjoying the king's special performance of theater troupe as it acted out the "five kings" skit. 

when cersei threatened the maester, after she was no longer queen regent, changing the instructions to feed the scaps to the dogs instead of the poor, i was wondering why she cared who got the scraps...was it because she knew the pie was poisoned? could there have been another target, like the new queen?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I liked how Oberyn kept reminding Cersei that she is no longer the queen.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NorthAlabama said:


> when cersei threatened the maester, after she was no longer queen regent, changing the instructions to feed the scaps to the dogs instead of the poor, i was wondering why she cared who got the scraps...was it because she knew the pie was poisoned? could there have been another target, like the new queen?


I suspect she would much rather have the poor be poisoned than the palace dogs...

And no, I'm not joking.

All she cared about was depriving Margaery of a victory (winning the hearts of the poor).


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> I liked loved more than I thought humanly possible how Oberyn kept reminding Cersei that she is no longer the queen.


I almost agree, but had to fix your post just a bit.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

NorthAlabama said:


> when cersei threatened the maester, after she was no longer queen regent, changing the instructions to feed the scaps to the dogs instead of the poor, i was wondering why she cared who got the scraps...


I think she knows that there is no way Joffrey could have wanted to feed the poor, and it must be Margery's idea, and she doesn't want to be usurped.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Okay, what are our clues? We've seen poison 3 times so far?

1. The wineseller trying to give Daenerys poison wine, but I think Robert Baratheon was behind that, and since he's no longer with us, then he can not be a suspect.

2. An attempt was made Melisandre with poison by Cressen, but she tricked him at his own game and he is the one who wound up dead. Didn't he also bleed from the nose before dying? That would leave me to believe that it's the same type of poison, but Cressen is no longer around, although it maybe someone else in the Stannis camp? How would they have pulled it off? Maybe the jester/fool?

3. Pycelle giving poison to Cersei in case the city were to fall. He certainly has the knowledge and the opportunity, but does he have the motivation?

Have there been any more instances of poison that we've seen?


----------



## quikah (Dec 16, 2006)

The post that mentioned the poison being introduced is a bit of a book spoiler unfortunately (if it is talking about what I think it is talking about). But we can still play along, it was poison that killed him, that much is known and we have seen poison used before, so it is not a bad road to go down.



Jstkiddn said:


> Okay, what are our clues? We've seen poison 3 times so far?
> 
> 1. The wineseller trying to give Daenerys poison wine, but I think Robert Baratheon was behind that, and since he's no longer with us, then he can not be a suspect.


The wineseller was employed by Varys. He is a good suspect, but what would he gain?



Jstkiddn said:


> 2. An attempt was made Melisandre with poison by Cressen, but she tricked him at his own game and he is the one who wound up dead. Didn't he also bleed from the nose before dying? That would leave me to believe that it's the same type of poison, but Cressen is no longer around, although it maybe someone else in the Stannis camp? How would they have pulled it off? Maybe the jester/fool?


Aside from Melisandre's curse I don't see how Stannis could be involved. He is incredibly weak ATM, they are almost out of food even.



Jstkiddn said:


> 3. Pycelle giving poison to Cersei in case the city were to fall. He certainly has the knowledge and the opportunity, but does he have the motivation?


All Maesters' have a thorough knowledge of poison. Don't forget the ex-maester that arrived with Jaime/Brianne (Qyburn, he was talking with Cersei in the first episode). But Qyburn seems to be working for Cersei now.

Another suspect would be Oberyn, he has the most obvious motives but not the means it would seem.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Maybe the Fool was actually Valar Morghulis in disguise and carrying out Arya's wish and then protecting Arya's sister Sansa.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

getreal said:


> Maybe the Fool was actually Valar Morghulis in disguise and carrying out Arya's wish and then protecting Arya's sister Sansa.


"Valar Morghulis" is a phrase meaning "All men must die". It's not a person.

Perhaps you meant Jaqen H'ghar?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> Joffrey's wedding will get the meat of the discussion today (which is fine, since it got the meat of the show last night), but anyone have thoughts on Bran's vision? There were a couple of interesting shots in it.





Shaunnick said:


> There were two things that stuck out. Both are what I think future visions.  One showed the Iron throne, in its hall with the roof missing and snow falling inside.
> 
> The other showed King's Landing, sunny and warm, with a dragon's shadow flying across the city.
> 
> ...





Anubys said:


> the voice said to go north, I think. Which is a little vague since that was the direction they were heading anyway. But then Bran woke up and said he knew where to go. This was absolutely a scene I made a mental note to go back and rewatch carefully.


Bran saw Daddy Ned and the three-eyed Raven still telling him to follow into the Stark tombs. Maybe there is a magical talisman in there to give Bran dragons or something.

I thought that the Bran entourage was already far enough north that they met Samwell at the old castle on the wall. How much further north do they need to go?

Also did Sam tell Jon Snow that his little brother is alive?


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Ereth said:


> "Valar Morghulis" is a phrase meaning "All men must die". It's not a person.
> 
> Perhaps you meant Jaqen H'ghar?


Yes ... thanks for clarifying. :up:


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> ...If Tywin was part of the plot to kill Joffrey, his comment to Olenna regarding the expenses could be seen in a new light. Perhaps it wasn't so much that he cared about wasting money on a wedding as it was that he knew this particular wedding would be a waste. And if Olenna also knew, her response to him could be interpreted as, "Come on. How often do we get an excuse to have a celebration? Let's enjoy ourselves even though we know the marriage won't last to the end of the wedding."


OOOOOOOOOO! The TYRELLS provided the food for the wedding! Mystery solved.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I'm just not buying that the Tyrells were behind this. They stand much more to lose than to gain....at least until Margery had produced an heir. I think it would have even been too risky if she'd already been pregnant. They would have waited until there was a live human.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> Okay, what are our clues? We've seen poison 3 times so far?
> 
> 1. The wineseller trying to give Daenerys poison wine, but I think Robert Baratheon was behind that, and since he's no longer with us, then he can not be a suspect.
> 
> ...


one more: Jaime and Cersei killed Jon(?) via poison. He was Robert's Hand who found out about Jaime and Cersei and their children.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Anubys said:


> one more: Jaime and Cersei killed Jon(?) via poison. He was Robert's Hand who found out about Jaime and Cersei and their children.


Jon Arryn, who was married to Catelyn Stark's sister (and extended breast feeding fan) Lysa (Tully) Arryn.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I am a bit worried that we are either never going to be told who did it and how or that, instead, we will be told and it would be the equivalent of a retcon. Based on what little we saw, the list of suspects is narrow. However, I don't trust that what we saw is useful in finding an answer.

Sansa seemed to have done something with her other hand as she was picking up the goblet. Olenna and Margaery were sitting nearby and had ample opportunity. Tyrion obviously had plenty of opportunity. As did the people serving the pie. Dontos seemed to know something.

Unless its one of those, then it's probably going to be either not fully resolved or a poor example of how to film a mystery/murder scene.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

OK. I never would have spotted this without a tip from the spoiler/book thread. But if you watch very closely, THE FOLLOWING IS IN THE SHOW:

While Margery's grandmum is talking to Sansa, you can see that a gem is missing from Sansa's necklace. There's definitely a motion that could be grandmum taking the gem. Then grandmum walks past Joffrey, and I think she drops something in J's cup. It's a long shot across the party, but her arm moves and there's a clink.

Which means she was going to have Sansa take the fall. No one is "nice" in the Game of Thrones.


----------



## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)




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## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> it was interesting to watch who was and who wasn't enjoying the king's special performance of theater troupe as it acted out the "five kings" skit.
> 
> when cersei threatened the maester, after she was no longer queen regent, changing the instructions to feed the scaps to the dogs instead of the poor, i was wondering why she cared who got the scraps...was it because she knew the pie was poisoned? could there have been another target, like the new queen?


This was just Cersei being against whatever Margaery is for. By making sure the food doesn't actually leave the Keep, Cersei turns some good potential publicity for Margaery into a chance to paint her as a hypocritical liar. The last thing Cersei wants is for Margaery to be more popular than Joffrey, although that is probably already the case amongst the average peasant in the Red Keep.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> I am a bit worried that we are either never going to be told who did it and how or that, instead, we will be told and it would be the equivalent of a retcon. Based on what little we saw, the list of suspects is narrow. However, I don't trust that what we saw is useful in finding an answer.
> 
> Sansa seemed to have done something with her other hand as she was picking up the goblet. Olenna and Margaery were sitting nearby and had ample opportunity. Tyrion obviously had plenty of opportunity. As did the people serving the pie. Dontos seemed to know something.
> 
> Unless its one of those, then it's probably going to be either not fully resolved or a poor example of how to film a mystery/murder scene.


It won't be a retconned situation.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> It won't be a retconned situation.


Yeah, sounds like I missed some clues after all.


----------



## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> Which means she was going to have Sansa take the fall. No one is "nice" in the Game of Thrones.


It's also possible that Sansa's "rescue" is part of the larger plan that also involved killing Joffrey.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

MarkL said:


> It's also possible that Sansa's "rescue" is part of the larger plan that also involved killing Joffrey.


There's absolutely no reason to involve Sansa's necklace unless it's so she can take the fall. (Grandmum could've carried that poison in.) Grandmum had the Fool give it to her. The Fool figured out why and saved Sansa.

Wrong attribution, btw.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

tlc said:


> OK. I never would have spotted this without a tip from the spoiler/book thread. But if you watch very closely, THE FOLLOWING IS IN THE SHOW:
> 
> While Margery's grandmum is talking to Sansa, you can see that a gem is missing from Sansa's necklace. There's definitely a motion that could be grandmum taking the gem. Then grandmum walks past Joffrey, and I think she drops something in J's cup. It's a long shot across the party, but her arm moves and there's a clink.
> 
> Which means she was going to have Sansa take the fall. No one is "nice" in the Game of Thrones.


So do you think the fool giving her the necklace was a setup? And then he started to feel badly and he came and took her away?


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

tlc said:


> There's absolutely no reason to involve Sansa's necklace unless it's so she can take the fall. (Grandmum could've carried that poison in.) Grandmum had the Fool give it to her. The Fool figured out why and saved Sansa.
> 
> Wrong attribution, btw.


Wait. Was Ser. D*whatever, the fool, a Tyrell relative? I thought he said the necklace was an heirloom from his family.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Wait. Was Ser. D*whatever, the fool, a Tyrell relative? I thought he said the necklace was an heirloom from his family.


Who's to say he wasn't lying? Maybe he was sent to make sure she received the necklace.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> So do you think the fool giving her the necklace was a setup? And then he started to feel badly and he came and took her away?


I would guess that grandmum made him do it and he didn't know _why_ until he saw events unfold.

OTOH, he could be a master spy or a face-changer-guy. Maybe grandmum was replaced by a face-changer-guy! Can they imitate specific people, like the T-1000?


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

quikah said:


> The wineseller was employed by Varys. He is a good suspect, but what would he gain?


I have no reason to believe Varys was involved, but did want to pursue the above line...

Varys has more than once said he does things for the good of Westeros. That he's been the Spider for several kings, and doesn't necessarily do what his current king wants, but what he believes is best for posterity. I think when Ned was in the dungeons he talked about his serving no man, but the land.

To repeat, I don't think Varys was involved, but surely he had to know Joffrey would be bad for Westeros, and replacing Joffrey would almost certainly be a plus situation. Tommen has to be better than Joffrey, and Tommen needs a regent and Spider more than Joffrey did.

So even if Varys had nothing to do with this, he has to be happy about this turn of affairs.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

tlc said:


> T-1000?


book spoiler.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

tlc said:


> I would guess that grandmum made him do it and didn't know _why_ until he saw events unfold.


That said, he wasn't surprised by the turn of events.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

astrohip said:


> So even if Varys had nothing to do with this, he has to be happy about this turn of affairs.


I think most of Westeros would be.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tlc said:


> OK. I never would have spotted this without a tip from the spoiler/book thread. But if you watch very closely, THE FOLLOWING IS IN THE SHOW:
> 
> While Margery's grandmum is talking to Sansa, you can see that a gem is missing from Sansa's necklace. There's definitely a motion that could be grandmum taking the gem. Then grandmum walks past Joffrey, and I think she drops something in J's cup. It's a long shot across the party, but her arm moves and there's a clink.
> 
> Which means she was going to have Sansa take the fall. No one is "nice" in the Game of Thrones.


I've just gone back and re-watched the portions you mention and there is no gem taken from Sansa's necklace. Olenna does touch the necklace at one point, but the necklace is shown many times after that and it's never missing any stones.

Also, that exchange happens near the beginning of the party, quite a long time before Joffrey begins to choke. And Joffrey poured out his wine on Tyrion's head in the meantime.

I'm not sure what you read in the book thread that corresponds to this, but if it turns out that this was the manner in which Joffrey was poisoned, then that's pretty poor filmmaking.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I've just gone back and re-watched the portions you mention and there is no gem taken from Sansa's necklace. Olenna does touch the necklace at one point, but the necklace is shown many times after that and it's never missing any stones.
> 
> Also, that exchange happens near the beginning of the party, quite a long time before Joffrey begins to choke. And Joffrey poured out his wine on Tyrion's head in the meantime.
> 
> I'm not sure what you read in the book thread that corresponds to this, but if it turns out that this was the manner in which Joffrey was poisoned, then that's pretty poor filmmaking.


Thanks for saving me about 20 minutes.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

I too checked for a missing stone - did not see it


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

There might be one missing on the far left (Sansa's left), but it also could just be under her dress top


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I've just gone back and re-watched the portions you mention and there is no gem taken from Sansa's necklace. Olenna does touch the necklace at one point, but the necklace is shown many times after that and it's never missing any stones.


Our far right. Against the dress, not her skin.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Actually I just checked again, yes far Sansas left missing stone confirmed!


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

fineeeeeeeee


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I've just gone back and re-watched the portions you mention and there is no gem taken from Sansa's necklace. Olenna does touch the necklace at one point, but the necklace is shown many times after that and it's never missing any stones.
> 
> Also, that exchange happens near the beginning of the party, quite a long time before Joffrey begins to choke. And Joffrey poured out his wine on Tyrion's head in the meantime.
> 
> I'm not sure what you read in the book thread that corresponds to this, but if it turns out that this was the manner in which Joffrey was poisoned, then that's pretty poor filmmaking.





MonsterJoe said:


> Thanks for saving me about 20 minutes.


I sit corrected. Just went and re-watched again and made some screen caps (while it appears others were doing the same).

Here is Olenna touching the necklace:










Here is the next shot right after Olenna touches the necklace:










And here is the only shot I found from later in the party where it's not covered by her braid or the dress (this is during the scene when Joffrey is commanding Tyron to kneel):










So if we're supposed to believe that Olenna did it, and did it that early in the party, that seems very strange. Is the poison very slow acting and just didn't take effect until much later? What would Olenna's motive be, given that her granddaughter will no longer be queen?


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Ya.

Seems like an AWFULLYYYYYYYYY over complicated way to sneak poison in to a party - but I'm not going to deny the screenshots.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

MonsterJoe said:


> Ya.
> 
> Seems like an AWFULLYYYYYYYYY over complicated way to sneak poison in to a party - but I'm not going to deny the screenshots.


Agreed, unless you're trying to frame someone. Then it's very convenient to have Sansa wearing that necklace so publicly. But I'm not sure how Westeros: CSI is going to determine that the poison came from a fake gem that used to be attached to Sansa's necklace. Presumably, the "gem" would dissolve in the wine, so there wouldn't be any evidence left to point to the necklace.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I don't think the Tyrells would do that to Sansa (not like anything is sacred in this show).

I don't want to wait to find out - think I could read all the books before next week?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

MegaHertz67 said:


> "War is war, but killing a man at a wedding...horrid. What sort of Monster would do such a thing?"
> 
> Olenna Tyrell


Interesting that this is the line Olenna is saying as she's taking the gem from Sansa's necklace.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

doubling back on an earlier conversation, there was more in Bran's vision than the voice saying "North". It also said to "find me underneath the tree" (not direct transcription, but close). Then it said "North".

To kill a king, you have to have a motive. The Tyrells of all people have zero motive to change kings. They just spent all their political and actual capital to ensure they marry THIS king.

Unless they make a move to have Margery declared queen, murdering Joffrey would be crazy for them to do (and even so, they should have waited until she was pregnant since she would then be the queen regent until the child was of age). It would have to be part of a major move on their part and we've seen nothing to indicate that they would do that (go to war against the Lannisters and the Baratheons). 

Of all the people at that wedding, the Tyrells are the least suspect, IMO.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> but if it turns out that this was the manner in which Joffrey was poisoned, then that's pretty poor filmmaking.


No disagreement here. If you think taking the gem was subtle, look for what may be the drop. If that "clink" is supposed to be the drop and we heard it across the party, it would have been really loud at the head table.










Joffrey did take at least a small drink before pouring it on Tyrion's head. Enough? Maybe the gem wasn't the actual poison, just false evidence.



DevdogAZ said:


> Interesting that this is the line Olenna is saying as she's taking the gem from Sansa's necklace.


Yes!


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ereth said:


> And, according to Tyrion, Tommen and Myrcella are fine children, unlike their insane older brother.


Odd that they are willing to leave Myrcella with the Dornish, who so obviously hate them. Have they even tried to get her back, or is that impossible if she is officially "engaged?"



john4200 said:


> I'm sure Cersei would say it was a crime of opportunity. Tyrion must have had the poison on him.


Who would go to a wedding in King's Landing without poison in his pocket?



cheesesteak said:


> I hope the Theon/Ramsay Snow subplot has a significant reason for being. Those scenes so uncomfortable and so disconnected that I'm tempted to ffwd through them.


I thought this was really well done. Theon used to be so cocky--now he's trembling and so quick to agree with whatever Bolton says. Lord Bolton was unhappy that his hostage was rendered useless, but when he saw how obedient he was you could see the wheels turning. IMO he's no better than his son--maybe a little more self control.



gossamer88 said:


> There are so many who wanted him dead and and were there. The Fool being too obvious but as someone has said, he could have played a part.
> .


The fool may be followed instructions, but he really does seem to be a fool. I can't see him being clever enough to put together any kind of complex plan, which this obviously was.



Anubys said:


> How is Loche (the one who cut-off Jaime's hand) still alive? I would have thought Tywin would have asked for his head by now.


Bolton did the Lannisters a really big favor by killing Rob, who was his Lord. Loched is his man, so he's probably safe for now.



MikeAndrews said:


> Also did Sam tell Jon Snow that his little brother is alive?


I think Bran and Jojen swore him to secrecy.


----------



## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Odd that they are willing to leave Myrcella with the Dornish, who so obviously hate them. Have they even tried to get her back, or is that impossible if she is officially "engaged?"
> 
> Who would go to a wedding in King's Landing without poison in his pocket?
> 
> ...


And Hoat ... uh, I mean Locke ... did Tywin a favor by making Jaime seemingly unfit for Kingsguard duty. Tywin has been angry at jaime for ever joining the Kingsguard, and he's hoping Jaime will "retire" now that he can't really fight like he used to. Jaime was even flirting with the idea over breakfast sausage with Tyrion.

If Tywin is mad about how his son was treated (and yes, he probably is angry about it, too) then I would imagine he will wait until after he longer needs Bolton's support before he acts against Locke. Tywin is nothing if not a pragmatist.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Agreed, unless you're trying to frame someone. Then it's very convenient to have Sansa wearing that necklace so publicly. But I'm not sure how Westeros: CSI is going to determine that the poison came from a fake gem that used to be attached to Sansa's necklace. Presumably, the "gem" would dissolve in the wine, so there wouldn't be any evidence left to point to the necklace.


I guess a real (non-dissolving) gem would be coated with poison which is wine-soluble.

And the gem was apparently dropped in the decanter, not in Joffrey's cup. Then Tyrion later filled Joffrey's cup from the decanter, and then Joffrey took a few gulps and died.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

stellie93 said:


> Who would go to a wedding in King's Landing without poison in his pocket?


Or at least somewhere on one's person. Poison is all the fashion this season.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

tlc said:


> No disagreement here. If you think taking the gem was subtle, look for what may be the drop. If that "clink" is supposed to be the drop and we heard it across the party, it would have been really loud at the head table.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe she dropped it in the goblet holding the wine and not his glass. Makes more sense if you want to delay the timing, but I guess you also risk poisoning your own daughter (that's assuming she isn't in on it as well).


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

How probable would it be for a poison stone be in a jeweled setting and be easily removed without the wearer's knowledge. 

A male heir in the waiting and Margaery Queen-Regent to be with Cersei out of the picture? That'd be the time for Joffrey to go not now.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

upon further review: Sansa turns towards the grandmother (sorry, can't get her name) in a move clearly choreographed so the viewer does not see the gems. Then clearly turns afterwards to show us the missing gem. I doubt very much that this was accidental. I think the gem was absolutely taken.

The clink could have been anything. Background noise, even.


So I'm still confused about the motive.

And how they managed to kill only Joffrey. 

Was Joffrey even their target? their only target?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

There were several decanters on the table, so perhaps the one in front of Joffrey was for him only, or perhaps him and Margaery. I'm sure Margaery knew what was happening (or at least was warned not to drink any wine). 

So, Joffrey was likely to be the only one killed. But I do not think the assassins would have been displeased if anyone else at that table (except for Margaery, of course) had also been killed.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> And the gem was apparently dropped in the decanter, not in Joffrey's cup. Then Tyrion later filled Joffrey's cup from the decanter, and then Joffrey took a few gulps and died.


What evidence is there that she dropped it in the decanter rather than Joffrey's cup? That seems far too risky.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I've got it!

Tyrion fills Joffrey's goblet from the decanter on Tywin and Cersei's table.

This would make perfect sense. Kill Tywin and Cersei and the throne belongs to Margery as Joffrey's power base would be destroyed!


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> What evidence is there that she dropped it in the decanter rather than Joffrey's cup? That seems far too risky.


Risk of what? I do not see any risk for her to be concerned about.

Anyway, she obviously put it in the decanter. There is no other good way to explain the sequence of events.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Risk of what? I do not see any risk for her to be concerned about.
> 
> Anyway, she obviously put it in the decanter. There is no other good way to explain the sequence of events.


Risk of killing people other than Joffrey.

Why does the sequence of events require that she put it in the decanter? Why couldn't she have put it directly into his goblet?



Anubys said:


> Tyrion fills Joffrey's goblet from the decanter on Tywin and Cersei's table.





john4200 said:


> No. Tyrion uses the decanter on the table in front of Joffrey.


Tyrion filled Joffrey's goblet twice. The first time was from one of the decanters on the Tywin/Cersei table and the second time was from the decanter in front of Joffrey's chair. Edit: Strike that. Tyrion only fills the goblet once, from the decanter in front of Cersei. The second time Joffrey demands Tyrion bring his cup, Tyrion simply walks over to Joffrey's table and picks up the goblet and hands it to Joffrey, without adding anything to it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> No. Tyrion uses the decanter on the table in front of Joffrey.


I don't understand why someone would make an emphatic contradiction when it's absolutely wrong. No qualifications of "I think" or "IIRC"...nothing. Just a "No". And you're 100% wrong!

Edit: not picking a fight. I truly am confused about your post!


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I've got it!
> 
> Tyrion fills Joffrey's goblet from the decanter on Tywin and Cersei's table.
> 
> This would make perfect sense. Kill Tywin and Cersei and the throne belongs to Margery as Joffrey's power base would be destroyed!


That would assume that Margery could control The Mad Kinglette. Not likely.

Again, I missed how Ser. The Fool is related to the Tyrells.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

tlc said:


> I would guess that grandmum made him do it and he didn't know _why_ until he saw events unfold.


Oh, Lady Tyrell io The Fool's grandma?

Doesn't that mean that when Joffrey was going to have him killed, he was messing with the Tyrells?



tlc said:


> OTOH, he could be a master spy or a face-changer-guy. Maybe grandmum was replaced by a face-changer-guy! Can they imitate specific people, like the T-1000?


That J'harr guy doesn't make a lot of sense. For now, why would he be in Kings Landing?

Way back when Arya saved him from the fire. He could have just changed his face so it looked like one of the guards was locked up something....ala Hannibal Lecter.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Risk of killing people other than Joffrey.
> 
> Why does the sequence of events require that she put it in the decanter? Why couldn't she have put it directly into his goblet?
> 
> Tyrion filled Joffrey's goblet twice. The first time was from one of the decanters on the Tywin/Cersei table and the second time was from the decanter in front of Joffrey's chair. Edit: Strike that. Tyrion only fills the goblet once, from the decanter in front of Cersei. The second time Joffrey demands Tyrion bring his cup, Tyrion simply walks over to Joffrey's table and picks up the goblet and hands it to Joffrey, without adding anything to it.


so let me add to that since I've watched the sequence very carefully:

The "clink" occurs exactly as Oleena passes by the decanter on Cersei's table. The problem here is that Cersei is sitting right there (and Tommen, and Tyrion). You see her arm move (the camera is shooting it from a long distance) as she passes by. But how did nobody see her do it or hear the clink?

Tyrion fills the goblet from the decanter in front of Cersei. Joffrey drinks from it and hands it to Margery, who sets it down on their table, but farther away from Cersei's table and closer to Oleena and margery's father.

Margery feeds Joffrey the pie. Tyrion retrieves the goblet and hands it to Joffrey, who drinks from it and promptly dies.

I say the poison was for at least Cersei. She is a lush and counting on her drinking heavily would have been a good bet. Margery did say her father was to make a toast. I bet they were going to get rid of 3 Lannisters (Tywin, Cersei, and Tyrion) in one fell swoop. Although Tyrion had a different decanter.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> That would assume that Margery could control The Mad Kinglette. Not likely.
> 
> Again, I missed how Ser. The Fool is related to the Tyrells.


Why can't she? she's done an admirable job so far. And they only need him alive until she has a son. He would be easier to control without Tywin and Cersei around, that's for sure.

The Fool is not related to the Tyrells. He could be just a tool working for them. He certainly does not lack for motivation to want to stick it to Joffrey.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

The "clink" definitely occurs as she passes Joffrey and Margaery. Tywin, Cersei, Tommen, Tyrion, and Sansa are all at the same table to the left of Joffrey.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Risk of killing people other than Joffrey.
> 
> Why does the sequence of events require that she put it in the decanter? Why couldn't she have put it directly into his goblet?


I do not think she cares about killing other people. Why would she?

She cannot put it directly in the goblet, at least when she walks by after getting the gem, because Joffrey pours the goblet over Tyrion's head (turning it nearly upside down).

After Joffrey's goblet is filled for the last time (my mistake, it does come from the decanter on Cersei's table), Margaery takes the goblet from Joffrey and puts it on the corner of Joffrey's table, which is also close to Olenna.

We do not get a good view of Olenna walking past the decanter in front of Cersei after she got the gem, so it is hard to say if she put anything in that decanter. But it looks and sounds like she did something when she passed in front of Joffrey's table.

So perhaps Olenna just set the gem on Joffrey's table on her first pass (or maybe there was a glob of poison attached to the gem that Olenna set on the table and then got rid of the gem?), and then later either Margaery or Olenna dropped the poison into the goblet (most likely Margaery, since she handled the cup), just before Tyrion handed the goblet to Joffrey for the last time.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> so let me add to that since I've watched the sequence very carefully:
> 
> The "clink" occurs exactly as Oleena passes by the decanter on Cersei's table. The problem here is that Cersei is sitting right there (and Tommen, and Tyrion). You see her arm move (the camera is shooting it from a long distance) as she passes by. But how did nobody see her do it or hear the clink?


The "clink" occurs as she's passing the middle table where Joffrey and Margaery were sitting. Here's a screenshot of when the clink occurred:












cherry ghost said:


> The "clink" definitely occurs as she passes Joffrey and Margaery. Tywin, Cersei, Tommen, Tyrion, and Sansa are all at the same table to the left of Joffrey.


Just to clarify (I think we're saying the same thing), Joffrey and Margaery were by themselves at the middle table. All of the Lannister clan is at the table to Joffrey's left, and all of the Tyrell clan is at the table to Margaery's right.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I do not think she cares about killing other people. Why would she?


Well, that depends on whether anyone else is in on the assassination plot. I assume she'd care whether she kills her own granddaughter. And since Margaery was the most likely one to drink wine out of that same decanter, I would say it would be too risky to put it in that decanter unless Margaery also knows about the plot and is in on it.



john4200 said:


> She cannot put it directly in the goblet, at least when she walks by after getting the gem, because Joffrey pours the goblet over Tyrion's head (turning it nearly upside down).
> 
> After Joffrey's goblet is filled for the last time (my mistake, it does come from the decanter on Cersei's table), Margaery takes the goblet from Joffrey and puts it on the corner of Joffrey's table, which is also close to Olenna.
> 
> ...


This all boils down to how fast acting the poison is. If it's very fast acting and Joffrey ingested it that very last time he took a drink after eating the pie, then it likely was put in his cup right before that, and then the focus on the "clink" is immaterial since the clink happened long before all of this and Joffrey had consumed many cups of wine in the meantime. But if it's a slower-acting poison and we're seeing the effects of something Joffrey drank much earlier with his dinner, then it's possible the "clink" is relevant.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> Again, I missed how Ser. The Fool is related to the Tyrells.


He's not. I didn't mean to imply he was.



MikeAndrews said:


> Oh, Lady Tyrell io The Fool's grandma?


No, I was just referring to Olenna as Margaery's grandma because I'm bad with the names.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> This all boils down to how fast acting the poison is.


I assume it is quite fast acting.

Once Joffrey started choking, his symptoms progressed very quickly. It seems unlikely that there would be a poison where nothing at all happens for quite a while, and then the victim chokes and dies in a couple minutes. Well, unless it was a magic poison. 

Not that such a poison could not be made using modern technology. Time release capsules and all that. But I guess they did not have that technology... (and Joffrey might have noticed if he swallowed a pill with his wine)


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

john4200 said:


> There were several decanters on the table, so perhaps the one in front of Joffrey was for him only, or perhaps him and Margaery. I'm sure Margaery knew what was happening (or at least was warned not to drink any wine).
> 
> So, Joffrey was likely to be the only one killed. But I do not think the assassins would have been displeased if anyone else at that table (except for Margaery, of course) had also been killed.


I agree with this.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I'm going with the poison being in the cake. The birds got mashed because they couldn't fly out as they were dead. The marriage tradition is probably for the King to eat first. 

And where did Loras go?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I've got it!
> 
> Tyrion fills Joffrey's goblet from the decanter on Tywin and Cersei's table.
> 
> This would make perfect sense. Kill Tywin and Cersei and the throne belongs to Margery as Joffrey's power base would be destroyed!





Anubys said:


> so let me add to that since I've watched the sequence very carefully:
> 
> The "clink" occurs exactly as Oleena passes by the decanter on Cersei's table. The problem here is that Cersei is sitting right there (and Tommen, and Tyrion). You see her arm move (the camera is shooting it from a long distance) as she passes by. But how did nobody see her do it or hear the clink?
> 
> ...


I like the theory that the Lannisters were the intended targets of the poison, but Joffrey hogged it all to himself when Tyrion poured wine from the decanter on his table which was intended for himself and Cersei. There was an earlier scene between Jaimie and Cersei where he pointed out that she was drinking a lot of wine lately. :up:


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Before Jeffrey cuts the pie, he hands his goblet to Marjorie. She turns and sets it on the table. In front of her grand mother. This is about the 48minute 18 second mark.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> I'm going with the poison being in the cake. The birds got mashed because they couldn't fly out as they were dead.


Actually, most of the birds did fly out. A few couldn't fly out because they were killed by a Valerian steel sword.

And the others couldn't have flown out before Joffrey swung the sword at them, because that's what opened the cake.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> And where did Loras go?


Loras became angry when the dwarf show started making fun of Renly and he left in a huff.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)




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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> I think the rule of thumb in Westeros should be to not get married in general. Which wedding have we seen that has ended well?


I keep thinking about the Married with Children line, where someone mentions the movie "4 weddings and a funeral" and Al says "that's like 5 of the same thing"


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Can someone remind me what happened between Cersie and Pycelle? A few seasons ago they seemed to get along fine and help each other out a few times. Now she seemed like she couldn't stand him


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## xuxa (Oct 8, 2001)

Side note the band Sigur Ros made a cameo appearance as the band playing The Rains of Castamere.

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/book...s-sigur-ros-covers-the-rains-of-castamere/#/0


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> A few seasons ago they seemed to get along fine and help each other out a few times. Now she seemed like she couldn't stand him


A few seasons ago he was useful. Right now he's just a dirty old man.

At this point I'm expecting the whole goblet thing to be a red herring. Sounds effects and missing necklace parts will turn out to simply be fans overanalyzing production quirks. We'll go a round or two of characters suspecting Tyrion before it's revealed that something else (probably the pie, intended to be used by Oberyn as a mass murder instrument) killed Joffrey and this will prove Tyrion's innocence, probably just in the nick of time to prevent the untimely death of Tyrion.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and they kill Tyrion 3 minutes into the next episode.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

tlc said:


> There's absolutely no reason to involve Sansa's necklace unless it's so she can take the fall. (Grandmum could've carried that poison in.) Grandmum had the Fool give it to her. The Fool figured out why and saved Sansa.


If that's the case, then Tywin is likely not involved. I doubt he would want Sansa framed until she could provide him a new King of the North. And the Fool is most likely fearing for his life as much, if not more, than Sansa's.

But they would also need to come up with a scapegoat to explain how she got the poison. I doubt anyone would believe that Sansa alone would have made or acquired the poison necklace herself, let alone worn it on the off chance that Joffrey would drop the cup, and have it roll under the table so she could put poison in it before handing it back to Tyrion.

I suppose it might end up being a case of, "We don't really think it's her, but we'll accept it because it's not us."

I'm personally hoping that if Sansa goes on the run, she ends up joining with Gendry or Shae (who in that case would have snuck off the ship before it left), and finally taking control of her life.

But if it does turn out that Sansa ends up getting caught and executed, then I guess one silver lining is that Arya will have more people to add to her list.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I clearly have no idea how to watch TV because I missed all of the necklace stuff at the wedding, but the set up is certainly there in episode one when the Fool gives Sansa the necklace.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

A little OT. The actor who plays Joffrey has retired from acting.

EW interview:



> *Now you're giving us another twist in this story by retiring at the age of 21. Why?*
> *Gleeson:* The answer isn't interesting or long-winded. I've been acting since age 8. I just stopped enjoying it as much as I used to. And now there's the prospect of doing it for a living, whereas up until now it was always something I did for recreation with my friends, or in the summer for some fun. I enjoyed it. When you make a living from something, it changes your relationship with it. It's not like I hate it, it's just not what I want to do.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Loras became angry when the dwarf show started making fun of Renly and he left in a huff.


I know. I meant he could've done something to the cake.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> I know. I meant he could've done something to the cake.


I don't think he could have.

Not that he was physically incapable. Just that he's been portrayed as the type who's good at swinging a sword, looking pretty, and not much else. I'm not sure he's smart enough to play along with a plan like that, much less come up with it!


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

As usual, these threads almost certainly have Ockham rolling in his grave.

We have screenshots for crying out loud!


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> A little OT. The actor who plays Joffrey has retired from acting.


He has acted very wise. And it's probably just as well anyway. Is there any role he could every play where people would not irrationally hate his character simply because it reminded them of Joffrey? 

I don't know if this is considered a spoiler, but the article has this exchange regarding Joffrey's death in the books...



Spoiler






> *I've been surprised how long its taken certain actors to hear about their characters fate in the books. When did you know yours?*
> *Gleeson*: I knew from Day 1. When I got the part, I read the first book. And before that, I Googled the character summaries.





> *Did you expect Joffrey to last this long, or stick around longer, in the TV version?*
> *Gleeson*: I didnt really think about it. I knew it was coming. I would have been surprised if it didnt come in season 4. I was just like, whatever.





Does that mean Joffrey's death was handled differently there?



Spoiler



Either in a different manner or the wedding happened at a different time?


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

<book reader>I'm really enjoying this thread</book reader>


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

jehma said:


> <book reader>I'm really enjoying this thread</book reader>


Haha! I was wanting to ask if the book readers were drawing amusement from all our theories. Will be fun to see how far off (or how close) some of them turn out to be.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I started reading this morning on the train! Page 10 and counting! Am I close?!?!


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

MonsterJoe said:


> I started reading this morning on the train! Page 10 and counting! Am I close?!?!


Well, you're at least 10 pages closer.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> He has acted very wise. And it's probably just as well anyway. Is there any role he could every play where people would not irrationally hate his character simply because it reminded them of Joffrey?
> 
> I don't know if this is considered a spoiler, but the article has this exchange regarding Joffrey's death in the books...
> 
> ...





Spoiler



It just means that in the books Joffrey dies four or five chapters after the events of the Red Wedding. To hold off on his death in the show would prevent other major story lines from playing out in a timely manner. His death had to be early this season because taking any longer would have required major changes to other stories waiting on Joffrey to die.

No real major changes between what happened here in the show and what happened versus the books.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Why couldn't Jamie go to Lady Brienne to learn how to fight with his left?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, okay. Since Jack mentioned Book 1 when asked about Joffrey's death, and then the next question was wondering if he expected his character to last this long in the TV series, I thought that perhaps he had died in the first book.

But I guess what they were really asking was, "Did you think anything different would happen?" as opposed to "Were you surprised that something did?"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mwhip said:


> Why couldn't Jamie go to Lady Brienne to learn how to fight with his left?


I get the feeling that she's a lot more raw natural talent than skill...probably not much of a teacher.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I get the feeling that she's a lot more raw natural talent than skill...probably not much of a teacher.


I would assume that of Bronn as well.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

You have a good point. And even if people have doubts, it's not like they can log into hbogo.com, and verify them. 

In thinking about Sansa being framed, I'm now not as certain that Tywin wasn't a part of it. I wonder if perhaps part of his agreement with Lord Bolton was letting him have the North permanently. If that's the case, then he never really expected Tyrion to give him an heir. That was just an excuse for the marriage. The real purpose behind that was to have a reason for Sansa to be at the royal wedding.

EDIT: The post I was responding to got deleted. I'm not sure why the poster did that, but to clarify, the poster was pointing out that it's not like the people of Westeros could go back and review the footage of the wedding. They would have just assumed that Sansa had found some opportunity to put the poison in Joffrey's wine.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

about the poison: what if it's a 2-stage poison? each on its own is harmless but combined is deadly?

one part is in the wine, the other is in the pie. 

But I'm going to stick with my theory that the intended victims were Tywin and Cersei 

go ahead and smirk, book readers, I don't care!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

That's a pretty sophisticated poison if Olenna can touch it and not get poisoned and instead it is water soluble and yet so potent that he dies within minutes. Cyanide kills about that quickly, I guess... but I don't know if you could lace a gem with it like that.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

you're forgetting this is a universe with magic, so the properties of this poison are basically limitless


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

mwhip said:


> Why couldn't Jamie go to Lady Brienne to learn how to fight with his left?


The embarrassment of being taught by a woman. Also, I don't think she's in the same league as Bronn.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> That's a pretty sophisticated poison if Olenna can touch it and not get poisoned and instead it is water soluble and yet so potent that he dies within minutes. Cyanide kills about that quickly, I guess... but I don't know if you could lace a gem with it like that.


Could it be that the gem was a capsule containing the poison as opposed to being laced with it? I haven't rewatched the scene yet, so I'm not sure if it fits with the sound heard when Olenna walked past the table.

Speaking of which, I suppose one advantage we have over the book readers is that there are other senses we can use to pick up on clues as to what happened. I mean, it's not like Martin could write, "As Olenna walked past the Lannister table, a mysterious sound was heard." 

On the other hand, maybe that just gives them more ways to throw us off.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Come to find out it was actually an undiagnosed heart defect. Just coincidence that the excitement of the wedding caused his heart to fail (and head to turn purple as a result). I'm sure the autopsy will confirm this. It's been obvious the kid had a heart defect from day one. Look at all the symptoms he's displayed! It's not obvious he even had one.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

If I were Stannis, I would stop drinking wine for the rest of my life. Baratheons seem predisposed to wine poisoning.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> Baratheons seem predisposed to wine poisoning.


Joffrey was a Baratheon in name only, not blood.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Loras became angry when the dwarf show started making fun of Renly and he left in a huff.


 Was Renly the one with his bare butt hanging out? Subtle.

Why didn't Tywin step in when Joffrey was bullying Tyrion? He said he needed to be there to keep the little sh* in line. I don't remember how Tywin took it that Joffrey (Cersie) decided on his own to off Ned.

I was relieved when the pie showing up interrupted Joffrey with his "KNEEL!" harassment of Tyrion, then he went right back to it.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Why didn't Tywin step in when Joffrey was bullying Tyrion?


The king's grandfather 'step in' in public? That wouldn't necessarily be wise to do to a stable king, let alone an unstable psychopath.

Furthermore, Tywin hasn't been one for showing respect for Tyrion, not to mention he was probably none too happy with him at the moment due to the Shae situation.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Why didn't Tywin step in when Joffrey was bullying Tyrion? He said he needed to be there to keep the little sh* in line.


I've wondered the same thing myself. A few possible reasons that spring to mind:

1. He was enjoying Tyrion's torture. He's made no secret of his feelings toward his son.
2. He was afraid to speak up because king crazy might have asked him to kneel as well. (same reason kids don't speak up when another kid is being bullied.....keeps the target off themselves)
3. He was behind the poisoning and he was biding his time until little Joffy falls over dead.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Yeah Tywin isn't dumb, he knows when to pick a fight and when not to.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

tlc said:


> The embarrassment of being taught by a woman. Also, I don't think she's in the same league as Bronn.


Brienne is definitely above Bronn. But I think the the two factors in his favor a) His connection to Tyrion and b) His propensity to fight dirty. A one-handed man needs to learn every trick in the book. Brienne could practice proper swordplay, but Jamie needs more than that.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

MikeAndrews said:


> Why didn't Tywin step in when Joffrey was bullying Tyrion?


tywin wanted joffrey right where he was, the hated king (in name only) behaving badly, allowing him to manipulate events behind the scenes as king's hand.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

smbaker said:


> Joffrey was a Baratheon in name only, not blood.


OK, then Stannis should either change his name OR stop drinking wine. Is that better?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

billypritchard said:


> Brienne is definitely above Bronn.


No way.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

mwhip said:


> I would assume that of Bronn as well.


Yeah, the swordsmanship is a bit of a surprise, since the scene at The Eyrie where Bronn was Tyrion's champion showed that he was less about good swordsmanship and more about "getting it done" and "fighting a bit dirty".


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Yeah I don't think Bronn is any sort of master Swordsman

Bienne is probably more classically trained, but the poster above makes a great point that Jamie needs less classic training and more of Bronn's skills since he has only one hand now.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

kaszeta said:


> Yeah, the swordsmanship is a bit of a surprise, since the scene at The Eyrie where Bronn was Tyrion's champion showed that he was less about good swordsmanship and more about "getting it done" and "fighting a bit dirty".


Although I think any "shortcomings" he may have displayed in that "fight" were a ruse to manipulate his opponent...


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

kaszeta said:


> Yeah, the swordsmanship is a bit of a surprise, since the scene at The Eyrie where Bronn was Tyrion's champion showed that he was less about good swordsmanship and more about "getting it done" and "fighting a bit dirty".


Wasn't Bronn the guy who didn't fight with honor - but his (late) opponent did?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

tlc said:


> There's absolutely no reason to involve Sansa's necklace unless it's so she can take the fall. (Grandmum could've carried that poison in.) Grandmum had the Fool give it to her. The Fool figured out why and saved Sansa.


Why is the necklace necessary at all? Olyllana, whoever, could have done the the sleight of hand with the poison hidden anywhere. It didn't have to come from/by Sansa's necklace.

As Tyrion is being held and charged, I wonder how they think he was so clever as to bait Joffrey into making him a cup bearer. I know. It's Westeros. Chop first.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> As Tyrion is being held and charged, I wonder how they think he was so clever as to bait Joffrey into making him a cup bearer. I know. It's Westeros. Chop first.


Yeah, I'm afraid Tyrion is getting the short end again.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

NorthAlabama said:


> tywin wanted joffrey right where he was, the hated king (in name only) behaving badly, allowing him to manipulate events behind the scenes as king's hand.


It could have gone, "Your Grace, how 'bout those Yankees?"

As above, I was relieved when the pie arriving interrupted Jeffy's bullying session.

Isn't it a shame that Jack Gleason doesn't want to act any more? He'd be off to decent career now otherwise. Methinks a movie offer of a few $mil will make him change his mind.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Why is the necklace necessary at all? Olyllana, whoever, could have done the the sleight of hand with the poison hidden anywhere. It didn't have to come from/by Sansa's necklace.
> 
> As Tyrion is being held and charged, I wonder how they think he was so clever as to bait Joffrey into making him a cup bearer. I know. It's Westeros. Chop first.


Certainly some level of subterfuge was necessary since everyone in King's Landing has spies everywhere. Perhaps not this much subterfuge, but at least some.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

MikeAndrews said:


> Why is the necklace necessary at all?


if the theory plays out in the series, it would be meaningful on a couple of levels - sansa's necklace used to avenge her father, mother, and brothers, and the irony of it happening at joffrey's wedding.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

MikeAndrews said:


> Why is the necklace necessary at all? Olyllana, whoever, could have done the the sleight of hand with the poison hidden anywhere. It didn't have to come from/by Sansa's necklace.


It did have to come from Sansa, if they wanted to frame Sansa for the murder. Best would have been to have Sansa die (or completely disappear after someone connects the poisoning to her) before she could be questioned, then everything is wrapped up nice and tidy and no one ever suspects the Tyrells. But they got lucky. Having it appear to be Tyrion probably looks just as good as (if not better than) the original plan.

And it is Olenna. WTF do you get Olyllana from?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Did they show the fool giving the necklace to Sansa in the "previously on GoT"?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

They certainly have before, it's definitely Checkovs gun, it has to have some significance. I think there was some misdirection with grandmum sending all those girls to find the best necklace, actually that makes sense too, because maybe the one sansa got is one of those necklaces that those girls got for grandmum.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

john4200 said:


> ...And it is Olenna. WTF do you get Olyllana from?


I refuse to play, "I'll buy a vowel, Pat."


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MikeAndrews said:


> Isn't it a shame that Jack Gleason doesn't want to act any more? He'd be off to decent career now otherwise. Methinks a movie offer of a few $mil will make him change his mind.


Although I suspect Joffrey would haunt him no matter what role he took. He has an unfortunately distinctive face...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> It did have to come from Sansa, if they wanted to frame Sansa for the murder. Best would have been to have Sansa die (or completely disappear after someone connects the poisoning to her) before she could be questioned, then everything is wrapped up nice and tidy and no one ever suspects the Tyrells. But they got lucky. Having it appear to be Tyrion probably looks just as good as (if not better than) the original plan.
> 
> And it is Olenna. WTF do you get Olyllana from?


I agree 100%. Which explains why the fool ran to her and told her to come with him if she wants to live.

If the plan was to frame her for the murder, what better way to prove her guilt than have her run away?

She made for a perfect patsy.


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## quikah (Dec 16, 2006)

vertigo235 said:


> Yeah I don't think Bronn is any sort of master Swordsman
> 
> Bienne is probably more classically trained, but the poster above makes a great point that Jamie needs less classic training and more of Bronn's skills since he has only one hand now.


I disagree that he needs to learn to fight dirty. He was one of the best swordsman alive at that time with his right hand. The other hand holds the shield (which doesn't really need a hand to do). He just needs to learn to switch hands.

He DOES need to learn to defend against a dirty fighter though, someone who will try to take every advantage of his handicap (which I suspect Brienne wouldn't do).

WRT to framing Sansa. I see it as more of a blackmail thing, not necessarily trying to frame her. The mastermind has a way to control Sansa now, do what they say or she loses her head. Remember, everyone think she is the heir to Winterfell, so she is very valuable alive.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm not at all sure how classically trained Brienne is. Jaime wasted no opportunity to mock her lack of style. I suspect she's just a very, very talented brawler who makes up for lack of technique with sheer reach and strength.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although I suspect Joffrey would haunt him no matter what role he took. He has an unfortunately distinctive face...


Yeah. Too bad he isn't an unknown face like Daniel Radcliffe.

Come one. The number of people who saw Game of Thrones minus those who don't recognize people from show to show makes the number smaller. And if he is any kind of actor, it doesn't matter. Judi Dench looks like Judi Dench in every part she plays and it works for her. Also he could change his look. Darken his hair. Wear a beard.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> I know. I meant he could've done something to the cake.


I have no idea how you would go about baking a pie that big and putting live birds in it, but seems like it would involve a lot of people and be a little tricky to sabotage.



MonsterJoe said:


> As usual, these threads almost certainly have Ockham rolling in his grave.


I'm not sure GRRMartin subscribes to Ockham's razor.



billypritchard said:


> Brienne is definitely above Bronn.





heySkippy said:


> No way.


Didn't Brienne defeat The Knight of Flowers at some point? And he's supposed to be one of the best. Bronn's like a quarterback who looks awkward and has a bad arm, but always pulls out a win. 



john4200 said:


> It did have to come from Sansa, if they wanted to frame Sansa for the murder. Best would have been to have Sansa die (or completely disappear after someone connects the poisoning to her) before she could be questioned, then everything is wrapped up nice and tidy and no one ever suspects the Tyrells. But they got lucky. Having it appear to be Tyrion probably looks just as good as (if not better than) the original plan.


Considering that Sansa and Tyrion are a couple and definitely in agreement about Joffrey, it could be considered a team effort. Everyone may not know how loose their relationship is like we do.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I keep thinking there has to be a reason they went thorough the motions of having Sansa pick up the goblet.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> Didn't Brienne defeat The Knight of Flowers at some point? And he's supposed to be one of the best. Bronn's like a quarterback who looks awkward and has a bad arm, but always pulls out a win.


In a tournament, not a real fight. I'm not saying he would defeat Brianne easily, but he has way more real-world fighting experience.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Jack Gleeson had announced his retirement from acting years ago. We've known for several seasons that Joffrey would be his last part.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

stellie93 said:


> I'm not sure GRRMartin subscribes to Ockham's razor.


I'm not sure Martin is acquainted with any type of razor.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> OK, then Stannis should either change his name OR stop drinking wine. Is that better?


I'm still confused. What is the connection between Baratheon and being poisoned with wine? Robert wasn't poisoned..just given enough to get drunk which slowed his reflexes. Renly's death had nothing to do with wine. The wine poisoning attempt at dragonstone was directed at Melissandra, not Stannis. This is the first occasion I'm aware of where it was used against a Baratheon (or a "Baratheon").

That said, Stannis also has a very good defense. Let Melissandra taste test it and watch for the necklace to glow.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Was Renly the one with his bare butt hanging out? Subtle.


Repeatedly getting poked in the butt by a stick? Yeah, that was him.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> I'm still confused. What is the connection between Baratheon and being poisoned with wine? Robert wasn't poisoned..just given enough to get drunk which slowed his reflexes. Renly's death had nothing to do with wine. The wine poisoning attempt at dragonstone was directed at Melissandra, not Stannis. This is the first occasion I'm aware of where it was used against a Baratheon (or a "Baratheon").
> 
> That said, Stannis also has a very good defense. Let Melissandra taste test it and watch for the necklace to glow.


Hmm... I thought the implication was that someone drugged Robert's wine with a toxin that dulled his senses beyond the effect of normal wine. I see instead references to intentionally giving him extremely strong wine (stronger than his usual). In any case, there's a history of Baratheons ingesting something they didn't intend to when drinking wine... is that better?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> I keep thinking there has to be a reason they went thorough the motions of having Sansa pick up the goblet.


Joffrey kicked it further away after purposely dropping it. She was just being nice to Tyrion.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Joffrey kicked it further away after purposely dropping it. She was just being nice to Tyrion.


Right....that's what I thought initially, but now that the theory of the necklace and poisoned stones has come up, I'm wondering if there was more to it.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

quikah said:


> I disagree that he needs to learn to fight dirty. He was one of the best swordsman alive at that time with his right hand. The other hand holds the shield (which doesn't really need a hand to do). He just needs to learn to switch hands.


The blacksmith should forge Jaimie a hand gripping a dagger so when swords lock during battle and they are up close and personal, Jaimie could give a quick jab to the gut and be done with his opponent.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Brienne also approached the head table! Maybe she wanted her rival for Jamie, Cersei dead.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

MikeAndrews said:


> Brienne also approached the head table! Maybe she wanted her rival for Jamie, Cersei dead.


I don't see Brienne interested in Jamie at all in that way. Am I wrong?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> I don't see Brienne interested in Jamie at all in that way. Am I wrong?


Wasn't it Cersei who said, "You'll never marry him." "Neither will you."

Hey. How good are the King Guards in defending their King?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

MikeAndrews said:


> Wasn't it Cersei who said, "You'll never marry him." "Neither will you."


That was a Jaimie/Loras exchange.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

The muse asked me:

In the first episode when King Robert Baratheon's entourage makes the long trek to Ned Stark's Winterfell, why was Tyrion with them? He had no official standing in court, except the brother of the queen.

Also what is the rank of The Hound? He was not a King's Guard - no gold cloak. Just another Knight?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> I don't see Brienne interested in Jamie at all in that way. Am I wrong?


In the killing Cersei way? No, I don't think you are wrong. But if you just mean in a romantic way, you must have missed the conversation between the 2 of them with the long silence after Cersei's said something like "you love him"


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

MikeAndrews said:


> The muse asked me:
> 
> In the first episode when King Robert Baratheon's entourage makes the long trek to Ned Stark's Winterfell, why was Tyrion with them? He had no official standing in court, except the brother of the queen.


I believe he was just enjoying being a Lannister and wanted to see the wall.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> The muse asked me:
> 
> In the first episode when King Robert Baratheon's entourage makes the long trek to Ned Stark's Winterfell, why was Tyrion with them? He had no official standing in court, except the brother of the queen.
> 
> Also what is the rank of The Hound? He was not a King's Guard - no gold cloak. Just another Knight?


Tyrion hitched a ride because he wanted to see the Wall (and did go there and pee from the top; which was something he always wanted to do).

The Hound was the personal guard for (then) prince (Joffrey).

I've been meaning to mention 2 things:

1. Bolton sure wasn't kidding about the fat wife he got!
2. Where the heck is photoshopgrl? these threads are not the same without her.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> In the killing Cersei way? No, I don't think you are wrong. But if you just mean in a romantic way, you must have missed the conversation between the 2 of them with the long silence after Cersei's said something like "you love him"


I do mean in the romantic way. But I felt Brienne's look was more like..."are you for real?"


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I have no idea how you would go about baking a pie that big and putting live birds in it, but seems like it would involve a lot of people and be a little tricky to sabotage.


You can't just sprinkle a poison on top of it? Or inject it? Why do you have to do it during baking. The pie was "dry." Could have been a powder poison.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Right....that's what I thought initially, but now that the theory of the necklace and poisoned stones has come up, I'm wondering if there was more to it.


So, Joffrey kicked the cup to Sansa so Sansa could pick it up and put poison in it? Or to set up Sansa for his own murder?

Not sure I understand what you are saying.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> I do mean in the romantic way. But I felt Brienne's look was more like..."are you for real?"


Some of that was the whole conversation in which Cersei pretty much accused her of switching sides to just get a better deal.


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## Pralix (Dec 8, 2001)

Perhaps...

(Not good with some character names)

Someone paid that guy to give Sansa that necklace and a story about it so that she would wear it at the wedding. That would give whomever the poisoner was a way to implicate Sansa if indeed the jewels were some kind of poison. Someone will probably figure out what what was used to kill Joffery (which will conveniently be some kind of substance matching Sansa's necklace). Suspicion will turn to Sansa. The Tyrell grandmother was the closest to Joffery's chalice when he ordered Tyrion to bring him wine after finding the pie was too dry. Tradition would probably hold that the King would get the first piece of pie. The pie could have been made to be dry so that Joffery would quickly take a drink and get his comeuppance. After that, who would be eating or drinking anything from that banquet? I think the guy who might have been paid to give Sansa that necklace was going to double cross the culprit by getting Sansa out of there, or by getting Sansa out of there, more attention gets thrown Sansa's way.

Just my 2 cents.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

gossamer88 said:


> I do mean in the romantic way. But I felt Brienne's look was more like..."are you for real?"


I took it that Brienne knows she has no chance to get Jamie romantically any more than she had with Renley--well maybe a little more than that--so she was embarrassed at her feelings being revealed. I don't think she'd turn him down if he wanted her.



TonyD79 said:


> You can't just sprinkle a poison on top of it? Or inject it? Why do you have to do it during baking. The pie was "dry." Could have been a powder poison.


But wouldn't there be servants, and people to carry it, and some chef whose baby it is around it all the time?



TonyD79 said:


> So, Joffrey kicked the cup to Sansa so Sansa could pick it up and put poison in it? Or to set up Sansa for his own murder?
> 
> Not sure I understand what you are saying.


While none of what happened could have been Tyrion or Sansa's plan to kill Joffrey, after it happened that way they sure looked guilty. Cercei is not going to be logical about her accusations. Tyrion has been treated unfairly before. And they had motive, means, and opportunity, assuming they had poison with them.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

If there was poison in the pie, it would not be from the Tyrells, since that would make them suspects (they paid for the food) and Olenna is clever enough to avoid that. Besides, it would take a large amount of poison to dose the entire pie, so it would not be easy to do without detection. Unless one of the servers put the poison only on Joffrey's pie.


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## TomK (May 22, 2001)

From Time magazine: http://time.com/59423/game-of-thrones-joffrey-dies-scene/

"(Because Ive read the books, I dont want to say too much more about this, but have fun Zaprudering this one.)"


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> But wouldn't there be servants, and people to carry it, and some chef whose baby it is around it all the time? .


You'd never last a day in Westeros if you see these as hindrances.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

TAsunder said:


> That's a pretty sophisticated poison if Olenna can touch it and not get poisoned and instead it is water soluble and yet so potent that he dies within minutes. Cyanide kills about that quickly, I guess... but I don't know if you could lace a gem with it like that.


If I were a Westeros poisoner, here is how I would do it.

Mix together some sugar and the poison (something like cyanide would be good, as you say), and use a mortar and pestle to make a fine powder. Then, a drop at a time, add some water and blue dye until I have a very thick, blue syrup, about the color of the gem. Heat it up a little to thin it, then dip the end of the gem into the syrup to form a hat-shaped glaze on the end that attaches to the setting. While the glaze is still moist, attach the setting to the gem, covering most or all of the glaze. Once the glaze dries, it should help to hold the gem in place, since I would make the gem attachment weak so I could pull it out later.

Once it is time to do the deed, I would pull the gem out of the setting, and then either drop the gem into a wine goblet (if I wanted the gem to be found later), or just swish the end of the gem around in the wine to dissolve the sugar-poison in the wine, then get rid of the gem (or leave it somewhere that it would be found after the target is dead).


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

or you could just make it like rock-candy


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

MonsterJoe said:


> As usual, these threads almost certainly have Ockham rolling in his grave.
> 
> We have screenshots for crying out loud!


Except that the screenshots could simply be a continuity error and people are building entire theories based on it. Ockham might say that's the simplest explanation and put away his razor.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

you don't really believe that though.


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

My sense was that Joffrey was complaining about the pie because he's a jerk, not because it really was dry. OTOH, everything said is suspect...


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I originally thought it was Olenna behind this, and then reading the thread I came to doubt it. With the revelation of the jewel, I'm back thinking Olenna is behind it (perhaps with Tywin's blessing). Here's my thinking why Olenna might think it's a good idea to knock off Joffrey and why Tywin might be involved.

Remember that Ceirce is still to marry Loras Tyrell. By knocking off Joffrey, and making his little brother King, it means Ceirce maintains her Queen Regent status, and between her and Tywin will have much more influence over the young kid than they would have had over Joffrey, who's a huge loose cannon and one day might snap and have them all killed. Loras being a Tyrell and an adult male married to the Queen Regent, give Olenna her in without having to deal with crazy Joffrey, and could spare Marjorie if there's ever a plot by someone else to kill the King and Queen. Sansa (and Tyrion) become the perfect scape goat and Olenna has been setting her up since last season.

At least that's how I see it.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Mars Rocket said:


> My sense was that Joffrey was complaining about the pie because he's a jerk, not because it really was dry. OTOH, everything said is suspect...


I'm pretty sure I'd be complaining about a pie that was full of live birds!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Bob Coxner said:


> Except that the screenshots could simply be a continuity error and people are building entire theories based on it. Ockham might say that's the simplest explanation and put away his razor.


well, Joffrey did die. Someone did poison him. That someone is almost surely at the wedding. Did the necklace have anything to do with it? maybe.

But they made a big deal about the necklace, including in the "previously on". Then spent 5 seconds of the show on the fool asking Sansa to run away (based on her history with The Hound, she will not!). I don't know that we're far off base with our speculation.

Whether it was Tywin, the Dorne people, the fool, Oleena, ...etc. is the issue. The necklace's role can be major or non-existent. It doesn't matter to the larger mystery and the speculation about whodunit.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

john4200 said:


> If I were a Westeros poisoner, here is how I would do it.
> 
> Mix together some sugar and the poison (something like cyanide would be good, as you say), and use a mortar and pestle to make a fine powder. Then, a drop at a time, add some water and blue dye until I have a very thick, blue syrup, about the color of the gem. Heat it up a little to thin it, then dip the end of the gem into the syrup to form a hat-shaped glaze on the end that attaches to the setting. While the glaze is still moist, attach the setting to the gem, covering most or all of the glaze. Once the glaze dries, it should help to hold the gem in place, since I would make the gem attachment weak so I could pull it out later.
> 
> Once it is time to do the deed, I would pull the gem out of the setting, and then either drop the gem into a wine goblet (if I wanted the gem to be found later), or just swish the end of the gem around in the wine to dissolve the sugar-poison in the wine, then get rid of the gem (or leave it somewhere that it would be found after the target is dead).


So, yeah, like I said, sophisticated. You couldn't do the above with actual cyanide since it boils at about 78F and is highly volatile and ingested through the skin in some cases. So the poison has to be relatively stable and yet supremely lethal and also have certain chemical properties that would make it suitable to be turned into a gem of the exact right color. But, perhaps it's not that big of a deal as posted above because this is a world with magic and all.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

One thing is true. All the nonsense with Joffrey forcing his uncle to be his cup bearer wasn't planned unless Joffrey was plotting to kill himself so throw away that involvement including Sansa's handling of the cup. 

That said, the necklace could still play a part but what an elaborate scheme just to put poison in the wine. Unless they want to implicate Sansa but how does that even occur? It was too slight of hand to point to her. 

The tink heard in the audio was pretty subtle. Who is supposed to have heard that? I had trouble with my expensive surround sound system even when I went back to look for it. And a drop of a piece of jewelry from so far back?

Way too elaborate for any Westeros plot but we will see. If that was how it was done, it was portly executed from a story standpoint. GoT is not known for flashbacks and that is the only way to really retell the story if indeed it involved a necklace and a goblet.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I don't think these were clues for us as much as they are meant to be breadcrumbs referenced later when they explain everything.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> One thing is true. All the nonsense with Joffrey forcing his uncle to be his cup bearer wasn't planned unless Joffrey was plotting to kill himself so throw away that involvement including Sansa's handling of the cup.
> 
> That said, the necklace could still play a part but what an elaborate scheme just to put poison in the wine. Unless they want to implicate Sansa but how does that even occur? It was too slight of hand to point to her.
> 
> ...


Here's another interpretation of a couple of your points:

Maybe the intent was not to implicate Sansa, but to involve her in some way so that if it is later revealed to her what happened, she will derive pleasure from having been involved.

As far as flashbacks... well, you don't really need them. Almost everyone with HBO has HBO Go and/or On Demand. If they just later have someone verbally explain how it happened, fans who really want to verify it can re-watch the episode and see whatever clues are verbally given.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

MonsterJoe said:


> I don't think these were clues for us as much as they are meant to be breadcrumbs referenced later when they explain everything.


That assumes that they ever actually explain "everything". I wonder if there's been more thought and discussion put into this here than there ever was during the writing and directing of the episode.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

You really have to wonder?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Bob Coxner said:


> Except that the screenshots could simply be a continuity error and people are building entire theories based on it. Ockham might say that's the simplest explanation and put away his razor.


It's also possible that Olenna did remove the gem for some purpose, but it was for another reason than poisoning Joffrey. Maybe that didn't even happen in the book, but Martin added it to this episode to misdirect the viewers knowing that they would grab screenshots.

On the other hand, since the answers are already out there, it might be that they didn't care too much about maintaining the mystery. They did enough so that it wasn't obvious, but not enough that anyone watching closely couldn't easily see.



TAsunder said:


> So, yeah, like I said, sophisticated. You couldn't do the above with actual cyanide since it boils at about 78F and is highly volatile and ingested through the skin in some cases. So the poison has to be relatively stable and yet supremely lethal and also have certain chemical properties that would make it suitable to be turned into a gem of the exact right color. But, perhaps it's not that big of a deal as posted above because this is a world with magic and all.


Another possibility is that the gem didn't have any poison in or on it. What if Olenna took it simply to plant evidence pointing to Sansa, but the poison was brought in by another means?

This way she would not have to worry about the dangers of the poison, the risk that somehow she wouldn't be able to get Sansa's gem, or the chance that someone else might accidentally end up poisoned by it. It might not be likely that Sansa would accidentally drop her necklace into a cup of wine and then drink it some time before the wedding, but if something like that were to happen, all of her efforts setting up this plan would have been completely wasted. She might not have been willing to risk the poison being in anyone else's hands (even, and perhaps especially, unknowingly) for any length of time.

In that case, Sansa's necklace might have served as a nice supplemental, but not vital part of Joffrey's murder.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

TAsunder said:


> So, yeah, like I said, sophisticated. You couldn't do the above with actual cyanide since it boils at about 78F and is highly volatile and ingested through the skin in some cases. So the poison has to be relatively stable and yet supremely lethal and also have certain chemical properties that would make it suitable to be turned into a gem of the exact right color. But, perhaps it's not that big of a deal as posted above because this is a world with magic and all.


Actually, what I described is quite straightforward. And I said, something like cyanide. Obviously it would need to be a poison that is stable at room temperature if you are going to put it on a necklace. The poison's color is irrelevant.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

MonsterJoe said:


> or you could just make it like rock-candy


It would be almost impossible to match the gem exactly that way. Making realistic looking fake gems is difficult enough, but to also have it be wine soluble and encapsulating poison would be more than I would want to attempt. But the technique I described sidesteps that issue and is quite straightforward.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Dragons, man. The show has Dragons.

Besides - you're assuming the necklace only had one poisoned 'jewel'. What's to say Olepolyanna knew she would have the opportunity to grab that exact one at the moment she had the opportunity to grab one. Not likely. More likely, they're all poison.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

I'm voting for the idea that the cup was lined with poison in advance, to ensure the desired result. And the gem is a secondary device to frame Sansa for the act.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

MonsterJoe said:


> Dragons, man. The show has Dragons.
> 
> Besides - you're assuming the necklace only had one poisoned 'jewel'. What's to say Olepolyanna knew she would have the opportunity to grab that exact one at the moment she had the opportunity to grab one. Not likely. More likely, they're all poison.


Just because there are dragons does not mean that anything is possible. Magic is actually fairly rare in Westeros. There is no indication that anyone at the wedding had access to sophisticated magic.

And I am not assuming. You could do the same thing to several, or all of the gems if you wanted.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

markp99 said:


> I'm voting for the idea that the cup was lined with poison in advance, to ensure the desired result. And the gem is a secondary device to frame Sansa for the act.


That would not have worked, since Joffrey was drinking out of the cup earlier, and even poured it out over Tyrion's head. Joffrey did not die until just after Tyrion refilled his cup.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Just because there are dragons does not mean that anything is possible. Magic is actually fairly rare in Westeros. There is no indication that anyone at the wedding had access to sophisticated magic.
> 
> And I am not assuming. You could do the same thing to several, or all of the gems if you wanted.


You wrote that it would be almost impossible to match the [poisoned] gem [to the others].

The most obvious rebuttal to that, is that they're all made of the same thing [poison], thereby eliminating the need to match them to anything.

...and yes - precisely because there are dragons, anything is possible...because, you know - dragons aren't real.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

MonsterJoe said:


> You wrote that it would be almost impossible to match the [poisoned] gem [to the others].
> 
> The most obvious rebuttal to that, is that they're all made of the same thing [poison], thereby eliminating the need to match them to anything.


I meant it would be possible to use the technique I described on all the gems.

The rock candy technique would not work for ANY of the gems. Neither Sansa nor anyone else who talked to her would believe that a necklace with rock candy was an expensive heirloom.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I've enjoyed your absolute certainty in these threads for years.

No doubt, if it comes to pass that you were wrong, the show will suddenly be terrible.

Carry on.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

MonsterJoe said:


> I've enjoyed your absolute certainty in these threads for years.


And I've enjoyed your flights of fancy. Magic rock candy necklaces. Very funny!


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Regarding motive. It occurs to me that Olenna _might_ have enough clout to get Margaery married to Tommin next, since this marriage (also!) wasn't consummated.

But would she take this risk because Joffrey's "a monster"? It seems like a risky bet compared to having Margaery as Joffrey's queen. And won't this make Cersei Queen Regent until Tommin's older?

When exactly did Cersei stop being QR and Joffrey become (full fledged) King? What's the criteria?

Was Cersei QR because she's the mother of the next King? Or because she was married to the King when he died? Both were true when Robert died. Only one is true now (assuming Tommin is next). So maybe she won't be QR?


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

No clout necessary - it is the custom in this world, when a woman is promised and the heir dies, that she marry the next available heir. ...such was the case when Caetlyn married Ned.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Just because there are dragons does not mean that anything is possible. Magic is actually fairly rare in Westeros.


Rare, and costly. The magic we've seen performed has come at a pretty terrible price.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Actually, what I described is quite straightforward. And I said, something like cyanide. Obviously it would need to be a poison that is stable at room temperature if you are going to put it on a necklace. The poison's color is irrelevant.


I am describing the poison as sophisticated, not the technique of using it.  Sorry for any confusion.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

MonsterJoe said:


> No clout necessary - it is the custom in this world, when a woman is promised and the heir dies, that she marry the next available heir. ...such was the case when Caetlyn married Ned.


Good point! That makes the move less risky. But will there be an interim ruler, Queen Regent or something. How old is Tommin?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

TAsunder said:


> I am describing the poison as sophisticated, not the technique of using it.  Sorry for any confusion.


Well, I am not going to argue semantics. If by sophisticated, you meant "concentrated and fast acting" poison, then we agree, the poison would need to have those properties. If you mean something else, then I do not have any idea what you mean.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> That would not have worked, since Joffrey was drinking out of the cup earlier, and even poured it out over Tyrion's head. Joffrey did not die until just after Tyrion refilled his cup.


So we're going with the theory that the poison was in the wine decanter that was in front of Cersei, and that despite the decanter sitting there during the entire wedding, nobody had poured anything from it until Tyrion used it to fill Joffrey's cup?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> It's also possible that Olenna did remove the gem for some purpose, but it was for another reason than poisoning Joffrey ...


If only Prince Heimlich had been invited, he could have dislodged the gem from Joffrey's throat and we wouldn't be speculating about poison. 



MonsterJoe said:


> Dragons, man. The show has Dragons.





MonsterJoe said:


> You wrote that it would be almost impossible to match the [poisoned] gem [to the others].
> 
> The most obvious rebuttal to that, is that they're all made of the same thing [poison], thereby eliminating the need to match them to anything.
> 
> ...and yes - precisely because there are dragons, anything is possible...because, you know - dragons aren't real.


Well said.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

MonsterJoe said:


> No clout necessary - it is the custom in this world, when a woman is promised and the heir dies, that she marry the next available heir. ...such was the case when Caetlyn married Ned.


So in this case, Marjorie marries the younger brother?

All the more reason my theory makes sense, in that now there's potentially a more stable king, and younger so more easily manipulated by the elder guard of the Tyrells and Lannisters.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> So in this case, Marjorie marries the younger brother?


Unless I misunderstand, yes.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I've given it some thought and I think it was the pie, not the wine. Don't know who or how, but I'm going with the dry pie.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> So we're going with the theory that the poison was in the wine decanter that was in front of Cersei, and that despite the decanter sitting there during the entire wedding, nobody had poured anything from it until Tyrion used it to fill Joffrey's cup?


It was just bad luck that Cersei was having too much fun to drink. I am more convinced than ever that she and Tywin were the intended victims!

amazing bad luck that the lush decided that today of all days would be the one where she doesn't drink. Tywin not drinking is not much of a surprise since he is not the type to drink when there is so much going on and he needed to be sharp. I bet this is why Margery wanted her father to make a toast; she wanted to force them to take a damn drink, and to drink at the same time!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

with all the nicknames people get (kingslayer, onion knight...etc.). I can't wait to see what Margery's nickname is going to be!


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Anubys said:


> with all the nicknames people get (kingslayer, onion knight...etc.). I can't wait to see what Margery's nickname is going to be!


GQ


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I can't remember, but did Margery ever see any of Joffrey's transgressions with women?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> I can't remember, but did Margery ever see any of Joffrey's transgressions with women?


No. But Sansa gave her the skivy. Margery used that information to later tap Joffrey's inner psycho by playing with his crossbow. And I don't mean his penis.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

MonsterJoe said:


> Dragons, man. The show has Dragons.
> 
> .


Not arguing with your point--obviously there is magic here. But do the people in Westeros know that there are currently dragons across the Narrow Sea? I don't remember them discussing it, but The Spider should have warned them by now.



tlc said:


> Regarding motive. It occurs to me that Olenna _might_ have enough clout to get Margaery married to Tommin next, since this marriage (also!) wasn't consummated.
> 
> But would she take this risk because Joffrey's "a monster"? It seems like a risky bet compared to having Margaery as Joffrey's queen. And won't this make Cersei Queen Regent until Tommin's older?


I was surprised at how big Tommen was--I thought he was supposed to be a child. Joffrey himself isn't really old enough to be a king, IMO, and Tommin is much younger. It seems to me like if the Lannister family is in charge, Tywin is going to be calling the shots whether officially or not. He's the only one who can control Cercei.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

jakerock said:


> That assumes that they ever actually explain "everything". I wonder if there's been more thought and discussion put into this here than there ever was during the writing and directing of the episode.


You should note that George R R Martin, who wrote the books, writes exactly one episode of every TV season, and this is the one he wrote for this season.

I'm not going to get into the discussion of how Joffrey was killed, because I'm a book reader, but I think you are mistaken that there wasn't much thought and discussion put into the writing and directing of this episode.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> No. But Sansa gave her the skivy. Margery used that information to later tap Joffrey's inner psycho by playing with his crossbow. And I don't mean his penis.


That's what it was. I knew that she knew about his depravity but I couldn't remember how.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Not arguing with your point--obviously there is magic here. But do the people in Westeros know that there are currently dragons across the Narrow Sea? I don't remember them discussing it, but The Spider should have warned them by now.


I'm pretty sure they don't know.

My point was to deflate the claims that certain arbitrary things should not be possible in reality - when we're talking about a world that has dragons in it.

Dragons should not be possible either - yet there they are.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> Not arguing with your point--obviously there is magic here. But do the people in Westeros know that there are currently dragons across the Narrow Sea? I don't remember them discussing it, but The Spider should have warned them by now.


I don't know about people in general, but the power players know. In the memorable scene where Joffrey called Tywin to the throne room to chew him out for moving the council meetings to the Hand's tower, Joffrey complained that he was not made aware that Danny had Dragons. Tywin explained to him that her dragons were very small and would not be a worry for years and years.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> So we're going with the theory that the poison was in the wine decanter that was in front of Cersei, and that despite the decanter sitting there during the entire wedding, nobody had poured anything from it until Tyrion used it to fill Joffrey's cup?


No, I do not think it was in the decanter any more. I already explained my change of mind in a previous post. It was most likely added to Joffrey's cup after Margaery took his cup from him and sat it on the corner of the table near Olenna. Probably either Margaery or Olenna did it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ereth said:


> ...I think you are mistaken that there wasn't much thought and discussion put into the writing and directing of this episode.


Or any episode.

There are sloppily-written shows on television. This is most certainly not one of them.


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## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

getreal said:


> If only Prince Heimlich had been invited, he could have dislodged the gem from Joffrey's throat and we wouldn't be speculating about poison.


If he was choking he wouldn't have been able to talk or make any vocalizations.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> No, I do not think it was in the decanter any more. I already explained my change of mind in a previous post. It was most likely added to Joffrey's cup after Margaery took his cup from him and sat it on the corner of the table near Olenna. Probably either Margaery or Olenna did it.


So then the whole taking of the gem from the necklace and the "clink" would be irrelevant. Unless, of course, they then find the gem in Joffrey's cup.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> So then the whole taking of the gem from the necklace and the "clink" would be irrelevant. Unless, of course, they then find the gem in Joffrey's cup.


I already explained my thoughts on this in my previous post the other day. The clink could have been Olenna setting the gem on the table as she walked past, to later be used by Margaery (or Olenna).


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

tlc said:


> Was Cersei QR because she's the mother of the next King? Or because she was married to the King when he died? Both were true when Robert died. Only one is true now (assuming Tommin is next). So maybe she won't be QR?


I had the same thought yesterday and decided to look it up. The definition of regent is:
a person appointed to administer a country because the monarch is a minor or is absent or incapacitated.

So my interpretation is that it would be Cercei again. While it doesn't (according to that definition) have to be the mother, it would only make sense to me that the regent have some sort of significant relationship with the person to be king. Having Marjaery by regent for Tommin would make little sense.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Ereth said:


> You should note that George R R Martin, who wrote the books, writes exactly one episode of every TV season, and this is the one he wrote for this season.
> 
> I'm not going to get into the discussion of how Joffrey was killed, because I'm a book reader, but I think you are mistaken that there wasn't much thought and discussion put into the writing and directing of this episode.


I am also a book reader and know that GRRM wrote this episode. I didn't say "there wasn't much thought and discussion put into the writing and directing of this episode" I hypothesized that it was less than the amount in this thread. 
But you are factually correct. As slow as he is writing the books I can only imagine that he must have started writing this episode even before HBO agreed to film season 1. 

Which reminds me when I first saw that HBO was filming it I thought that there was no way they (or anyone) could do it justice. I am so VERY HAPPY to have been very wrong.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jakerock said:


> Which reminds me when I first saw that HBO was filming it I thought that there was no way they (or anyone) could do it justice. I am so VERY HAPPY to have been very wrong.


The irony is, he started writing the books after a lengthy stint as a Hollywood writer-producer...because he was tired of the limitations of television, and wanted to write something that couldn't possibly be done on TV.

Of course, back when he started the books (some 20-odd years ago) that was true!


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The irony is, he started writing the books after a lengthy stint as a Hollywood writer-producer...because he was tired of the limitations of television, and wanted to write something that couldn't possibly be done on TV.
> 
> Of course, back when he started the books (some 20-odd years ago) that was true!


I can't imagine how much better TV options will be as he's writing the 9th book 20 years from now...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think Cersei was already the queen and therefore it made perfect sense to make her regent. Now, Tywin would probably make sense as well since he is "acting king" in his role as the Hand.

I just had a total brainstorm about a totally unrelated topic. I was reading the recap of the premier when a flash of crazy (I would say brilliance!) exploded in my mind:

Oberelyn (close?) told Tyrion that Aergon (son of the mad king) and Ellia (Oberrelyn's sister, Aergon's wife) had a falling out because of another woman. Bear with me here: was the other woman Ned's sister? the one who Robert Baratheon was in love with? the one whose murder basically started the war that ended the Targaryan's reign?

If so...what if: prepare for your mind to be blown...


wait for it...



Jon Snow is Ned's sister's son...from Aergon...Ned never talked of the other woman. We also know that he is honorable and the fact that he would sleep with another woman is totally not in character. Ned pretended Jon is his to protect him since all "targaryians" would be killed!

I know I've been making some crazy theories lately. But I think this one takes the cake. Anyone else think this is possible? wouldn't that be awesome?!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Don't know about "crazy" or "awesome," but you're in good company...people have been suggesting that for years.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Don't know about "crazy" or "awesome," but you're in good company...people have been suggesting that for years.


Not clicking on the link since I don't want to risk a spoiler...

in a way, I'm relieved...if others thought of it, then it's a possibility. In another, if others thought of it, then I'm not an original! 

I think this would make for an excellent twist. Of course, there are no witnesses and there are no DNA tests, so nothing could ever come of it. Oh well.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Except that Targarians exhibit some unusual abilities--some of them, that is. I wonder if John Snow burns in fire?


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Except that Targarians exhibit some unusual abilities--some of them, that is. I wonder if John Snow burns in fire?


He burned his hand in the first season when he killed the Wight.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I think Cersei was already the queen and therefore it made perfect sense to make her regent. Now, Tywin would probably make sense as well since he is "acting king" in his role as the Hand.


I'm trying to think back. When Robert died, he named Ned to be Protector of the Realm. Does that mean Cercei didn't really become regent until they decided to ignore the will?



> Jon Snow is Ned's sister's son...from Aergon...Ned never talked of the other woman. We also know that he is honorable and the fact that he would sleep with another woman is totally not in character. Ned pretended Jon is his to protect him since all "targaryians" would be killed!
> 
> I know I've been making some crazy theories lately. But I think this one takes the cake. Anyone else think this is possible? wouldn't that be awesome?!


Now I'm trying to remember back.. In S1 Ep 2 (I think) Ned and Robert had a discussion about their younger days and their women. In there I know the topic of Jon came up. I remember that Robert didn't know the mothers name, but didn't he at least describer her physical characteristics indicating he knew who the mother was. I'll have to go back and re-check that conversation


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Now I'm trying to remember back.. In S1 Ep 2 (I think) Ned and Robert had a discussion about their younger days and their women. In there I know the topic of Jon came up. I remember that Robert didn't know the mothers name, but didn't he at least describer her physical characteristics indicating he knew who the mother was. I'll have to go back and re-check that conversation


That's assuming Robert actually knew who she was, and didn't just think he knew...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The irony is, he started writing the books after a lengthy stint as a Hollywood writer-producer...because he was tired of the limitations of television, and wanted to write something that couldn't possibly be done on TV.
> 
> Of course, back when he started the books (some 20-odd years ago) that was true!


Really? What couldn't be done on TV 20-odd years ago that we have already seen?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Really? What couldn't be done on TV 20-odd years ago that we have already seen?


CGI? Maybe it existed back then, but it's way more advanced these days. The use of CGI means they can make those dragons look a lot scarier


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Really? What couldn't be done on TV 20-odd years ago that we have already seen?


The sheer scope of it would have been inconceivable. Modern FX have made huge-scale epics far, far more affordable, and that's not even taking dragons into account.

Plus in the early 90s, there was no outlet for something as R-rated as this.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> Really? What couldn't be done on TV 20-odd years ago that we have already seen?


HBO spending that much money on an original series would be my guess.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Plus in the early 90s, there was no outlet for something as R-rated as this.


HBO and Showtime have been showing stuff this risque for as long as I can remember. Heck Dream On in the early 1980s had nudity. Real Sex is also from the 90s and that was out there sexually.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The sheer scope of it would have been inconceivable. Modern FX have made huge-scale epics far, far more affordable, and that's not even taking dragons into account.
> 
> Plus in the early 90s, there was no outlet for something as R-rated as this.


Certainly Sexposition would have been more difficult 20 years ago!


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> HBO and Showtime have been showing stuff this risque for as long as I can remember. Heck Dream On in the early 1980s had nudity. Real Sex is also from the 90s and that was out there sexually.


Those two had HUGE budgets, too!


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Really? What couldn't be done on TV 20-odd years ago that we have already seen?


Peter Dinklage had to age into the part or else there is no GOT. Sheesh.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Plus in the early 90s, there was no outlet for something as R-rated as this.


As others have mentioned, HBO and Showtime have been doing this for a while. Indeed, Showtime was where SG-1 started, and the producers deliberately amped up the nudity for the Showtime audience.

I think the big change is that the level of production you can get for the money has gotten a lot better. They could have done something like GoT back 20 years ago... with lousier production models, and a much larger budget.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Whether or not GoT would have been technically feasible 20 years ago is moot. From the standpoint of what even HBO was willing to actually make into a show, much less other networks, I just don't think it would have happened. That was before even The Sopranos aired, which is often credited with paving the way for mainstream acceptance of shows with such mature content and for shows with such a heavily serialized format. I really don't think HBO would have bought into a GoT show if not for The Sopranos and everything that followed showed them that they can have success with something this grand in scope.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, there's a huge difference between low-budget sex comedies (which is what the cable networks were showing then) and serious R-rated dramas (which nobody was showing back then).


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I remember Rome being cancelled because it was too expensive to produce.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Plus in the early 90s, there was no outlet for something as R-rated as this.


I'm not sure GoT would have to be as R-rated as this--it would still be good if that was all toned down quite a bit, IMO.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> I remember Rome being cancelled because it was too expensive to produce.


For that matter, "Battlestar Galactica" had the highest ratings in its time slot, far superior to even "Mork and Mindy" but was cancelled because $1 million per episode was just too much to spend back then.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

jakerock said:


> Peter Dinklage had to age into the part or else there is no GOT. Sheesh.


Best answer. The rest is nonsense. Scifi was on TV as long as there was TV so the effects may not be as good but GoT is a people drama, not an FX show. And they did large dramas and sweeping themes for a long time. It would look different but it could be done.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> I remember Rome being cancelled because it was too expensive to produce.




...one of my favorite shows, ever.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> Whether or not GoT would have been technically feasible 20 years ago is moot. From the standpoint of what even HBO was willing to actually make into a show, much less other networks, I just don't think it would have happened. That was before even The Sopranos aired, which is often credited with paving the way for mainstream acceptance of shows with such mature content and for shows with such a heavily serialized format. I really don't think HBO would have bought into a GoT show if not for The Sopranos and everything that followed showed them that they can have success with something this grand in scope.


This is the correct answer. The "Golden Age" of serious TV dramas started in the late 90s with Oz and then The Sopranos. Prior to that, the only TV dramas with any kind of decent budgets were on the broadcast networks, and GoT would never work as a network drama. Once The Sopranos showed that audiences wanted intense, complex, mature dramas and would go to cable to find them, that opened the floodgates for all the other stuff we've seen in the last decade.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

True - when I think back to TV that really grabbed me and made me want to watch - I think of "Oz"


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

So, Oz was 1997. I stand corrected. 17 years ago but not 20. 

Sure.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

well 1997 feel like 5 years ago to me, so I'm probably not a good barometer.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

MonsterJoe said:


> ...one of my favorite shows, ever.


Loving all of the actors from Rome showing up on GOT!

tta


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

indira varma - who else???


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

mance rayder ... argh blanking on his name .... cirian...?


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Oh that's right!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

And Kevin McKidd.

If I post it here, it will make it happen, right?


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

That would be great (for me) ...because no matter what I see him in, he is always lucius vorenus to me.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> And Kevin McKidd.
> 
> If I post it here, it will make it happen, right?





MonsterJoe said:


> That would be great (for me) ...because no matter what I see him in, he is always lucius vorenus to me.


He'll always be Dan Vasser to me 
(yes, still bitter, I'm not over it yet)


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

tivotvaddict said:


> mance rayder ... argh blanking on his name .... cirian...?


Speaking of Mance, it will be interesting to see what happens when the Bolton men, the Wildlings from the south, the Night's Watch, and Mance from the north all clash. (And the White Walker army, if they ever get there. Where were they all walking to anyway back at the end of Season 2? Everyone else seems to be beating them to the Wall. )

It's kind of a bold move for Lord Bolton to ignore the authority of the Night's Watch. Admittedly, they aren't the Night's Watch they used to be. And if the letters that they sent out to everyone regarding the White Walkers also mentioned a good chunk of them being taken out beyond the Wall, perhaps Bolton realized that they were even weaker than their typically modern day weak selves.

But to march on them simply because of fear of Jon Snow? Jon might be a potential threat, but he would have to break his oath in order to seek revenge, and risk his life not only with respect to the Boltons, but also the Night's Watch. Moving on them gives not only Jon, but the rest of the Night's Watch reason to fight.

Speaking of which, none of them seem to be concerned (at least not on screen) about Yoren never having made it back with his recruits. Do they know that Lannister men killed him along with many recruits, and captured the rest? They do have bigger things to worry about at the moment, but it seems like they should be concerned that their authority is changing from being largely ignored to deliberately disregarded.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> I've given it some thought and I think it was the pie, not the wine. Don't know who or how, but I'm going with the dry pie.


I've just rewatched the entire episode and I've changed my mind. I believe the poison was in the wine and I believe Grandma Tyrell is the one who did it. I'm not real sure if I think Margery knew about it beforehand. Grandma certainly may have done it without her knowledge. I also do not discount the theory that Tywin was involved as well.

I also believe the necklace was somehow involved and the fool knew all about it (otherwise, what was the point of the fool's necklace or even bringing back the character of fool?) The only good reason I can think of as to *why* the poison would have been brought in on the necklace is that they were trying to set up Sansa and/or Tyrion to take the fall for the crime. She could have just as easily hidden a poison "gem" somewhere in her robes.

The fool possibly felt bad about his part in setting up Sansa, so he makes a last minute decision to try to help her escape *OR* Grandma Tyrell set it up for him to come get her and she is going to try to help her escape (for what reason? Not sure.)

If she did in fact get a poison bead from Sansa's necklace, I do not believe she dropped it in the goblet or the carafe when she walked by on the way to her seat. I think the clink sound everyone is saying they hear is something else entirely. Besides, there was probably already wine in all the carafes and goblets, so dropping something in liquid surely would not have made a clinking sound.

I believe she held on to it until she had the opportunity to drop it in the goblet after Margery had set it down close to her during the cutting of the pie. When Tyrion goes to pick up the goblet you can see Grandma Tyrell in the shot sitting very close to where the cup was sitting on the table. She could have easily dropped something in there while Joffrey was hacking into the pie and all the birds were flying out. Everyone's attention was taken by the birds and nobody would have noticed. After the cutting of the pie, the very next sip of wine out of that cup was when he immediately started choking.

It would only make sense to drop it directly into his goblet, otherwise she would have had no control over who poured a drink from the larger vessel.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> Speaking of Mance, it will be interesting to see what happens when the Bolton men, the Wildlings from the south, the Night's Watch, and Mance from the north all clash. (And the White Walker army, if they ever get there. Where were they all walking to anyway back at the end of Season 2? Everyone else seems to be beating them to the Wall. )
> 
> It's kind of a bold move for Lord Bolton to ignore the authority of the Night's Watch. Admittedly, they aren't the Night's Watch they used to be. And if the letters that they sent out to everyone regarding the White Walkers also mentioned a good chunk of them being taken out beyond the Wall, perhaps Bolton realized that they were even weaker than their typically modern day weak selves.
> 
> ...


Roose Bolton told Ramsay to head to Moat Cailin, not the Wall.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I rewatched the wedding reception in slow motion and I really don't see "Sansa's disappearing gem" -- there are shots of her after Olenna's visit and while there might be a missing gem, it could be just as easily being covered by her braid or the neckline of her dress. 
HOWEVER: That said Olenna definitely took SOMEthing from Sansa's person, you can see it in her right hand as she draws it back. The other thing to note is that she has a large ring on her left hand, which looks very much like a "poison ring" -- one of those rings with a secret compartment that you flip open to poison someone's drink surreptitiously. 
So I'm going with Olenna stole the gem to implicate Sansa (and maybe Tirion by extension) but the poison was in the ring.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tiassa said:


> I rewatched the wedding reception in slow motion and I really don't see "Sansa's disappearing gem" -- there are shots of her after Olenna's visit and while there might be a missing gem, it could be just as easily being covered by her braid or the neckline of her dress.
> HOWEVER: That said Olenna definitely took SOMEthing from Sansa's person, you can see it in her right hand as she draws it back. The other thing to note is that she has a large ring on her left hand, which looks very much like a "poison ring" -- one of those rings with a secret compartment that you flip open to poison someone's drink surreptitiously.
> So I'm going with Olenna stole the gem to implicate Sansa (and maybe Tirion by extension) but the poison was in the ring.


As I stated earlier when I posted the screen shots, throughout most of the party, you can't see whether that far left gemstone is there because it's either covered by her braid or the dress or both. But there is one shot, late in the party where you can see it's missing and I posted that screen shot.

Here it is again:










This was during the scene when Joffrey was trying to get Tyrion to kneel and just before Margaery trys to cut the tension by announcing the arrival of the pie.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I rewound the scene multiple times on my rewatch this morning and the stone on Sansa's left (the viewer's right) does in fact appear to be missing after her conversation with Grandma Tyrell.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> I rewound the scene multiple times on my rewatch this morning and the stone on Sansa's left (the viewer's right) does in fact appear to be missing after her conversation with Grandma Tyrell.


The screen shots posted on Monday weren't good enough for you?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

tiassa said:


> I rewatched the wedding reception in slow motion and I really don't see "Sansa's disappearing gem" -- there are shots of her after Olenna's visit and while there might be a missing gem, it could be just as easily being covered by her braid or the neckline of her dress.


No, it's clearly missing. I can't do a screenshot at the moment, but right after she handles the hair, then the necklace, then pulls her hand away, it switches to a front-on view of Sansa. On the right side (Sansa's left side) of the necklace, the outer most gem is missing. You can see the setting that is supposed to be holding it is actually sitting on top of her clothing, so you can be certain it's not just obscured.

Edit: Ooops, or as DevdogAZ mentioned, the screenshot already posted...forgot someone did that


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> No, it's clearly missing. I can't do a screenshot at the moment, but right after she handles the hair, then the necklace, then pulls her hand away, it switches to a front-on view of Sansa. On the right side (Sansa's left side) of the necklace, the outer most gem is missing. You can see the setting that is supposed to be holding it is actually sitting on top of her clothing, so you can be certain it's not just obscured.
> 
> Edit: Ooops, or as DevdogAZ mentioned, the screenshot already posted...forgot someone did that


Here's the image you're talking about, from early in the party right after Olenna touches the necklace:










Previously posted in Post 106.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

BitbyBlit said:


> It's kind of a bold move for Lord Bolton to ignore the authority of the Night's Watch. Admittedly, they aren't the Night's Watch they used to be. And if the letters that they sent out to everyone regarding the White Walkers also mentioned a good chunk of them being taken out beyond the Wall, perhaps Bolton realized that they were even weaker than their typically modern day weak selves.
> 
> But to march on them simply because of fear of Jon Snow? Jon might be a potential threat, but he would have to break his oath in order to seek revenge, and risk his life not only with respect to the Boltons, but also the Night's Watch. Moving on them gives not only Jon, but the rest of the Night's Watch reason to fight.





cherry ghost said:


> Roose Bolton told Ramsay to head to Moat Cailin, not the Wall.


Yeah, he sent Locke to the Wall to find the boys and did mention something about getting rid of John while he was at it didn't he? Or maybe that was Ramsay's idea.

The idea that John would respect his oath and not come after whoever he thinks is responsible for hurting Bran and Rickon would be a foreign concept to the Boltons. Not big on keeping oaths.

Plus probably by now John knows that Roose Bolton was responsible for his mother and brother's deaths, so if he hasn't come after him yet, he's probably not going to.

We should be getting more action from the Wall in the next few episodes. Is Sam's girlfriend there with him? I liked the idea that if Ygritte hits you with 3 arrows and you aren't dead, she wasn't trying.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Plus probably by now John knows that Roose Bolton was responsible for his mother and brother's deaths, so if he hasn't come after him yet, he's probably not going to.


Do we have any evidence that news of Robb and Catelyn's deaths has even reached The Wall, let alone who was responsible?

Edit: Nevermind. Just rewatched that segment of S04E01 and it seems Jon is aware that Robb was killed.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Yeah, he sent Locke to the Wall to find the boys and did mention something about getting rid of John while he was at it didn't he? Or maybe that was Ramsay's idea.


You're right, he did tell Locke to "find those boys" and then Theon mentioned John Snow, so it makes sense he would head to The Wall.

Another thing,

The last we saw of Yara Greyjoy, she was headed to The Dreadfort to rescue Theon.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> Speaking of Mance, it will be interesting to see what happens when the Bolton men, the Wildlings from the south, the Night's Watch, and Mance from the north all clash. (And the White Walker army, if they ever get there. Where were they all walking to anyway back at the end of Season 2? Everyone else seems to be beating them to the Wall. )


There's also Stannis Baratheon, if he ever gets moving. Melisandre has made it clear to him that the most immediate danger is at the Wall (she saw it in the flames). She even saved Davos' life by agreeing with him, and saying Stannis needs Davos to be his right-hand general as he goes North.

Doesn't mean he will, as I don't think we've seen _anything _yet to make us think Stannis is moving _anywhere_, but they certainly made it clear the North has some meaning for him.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

I haven't finished reading the thread, so this may have already been posted. Love this version.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> As I stated earlier when I posted the screen shots, throughout most of the party, you can't see whether that far left gemstone is there because it's either covered by her braid or the dress or both. But there is one shot, late in the party where you can see it's missing and I posted that screen shot.
> 
> Here it is again:
> 
> ...


The only problem I have at this point is that there is no screen capture before her talk with Olena where we can see the missing gem still on the necklace.

You can see Sansa during the actual wedding in a few shots, but she is either in the background or her hair is in the way. So I was never able to verify that the gem was ever there.

When Olena does come to talk to her, Sansa's movement is clearly practiced to ensure that we don't see her necklace until after Olena touches her. Frustrating.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Anubys said:


> When Olena does come to talk to her, Sansa's movement is clearly practiced to ensure that we don't see her necklace until after Olena touches her. Frustrating.


...or further proof.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Anubys said:


> The only problem I have at this point is that there is no screen capture before her talk with Olena where we can see the missing gem still on the necklace.
> 
> You can see Sansa during the actual wedding in a few shots, but she is either in the background or her hair is in the way. So I was never able to verify that the gem was ever there.


Yeah. There were 7 gems when she got the necklace (last week), but I never saw a good enough shot to satisfy myself that all 7 were still there this week at any point during the wedding.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

You can see here that Olenna has what looks like a gem between her thumb and forefinger. But it is impossible to tell if it is the far left gem. And the gem she has could still be attached at this last instant that we are able to see it (further frames are too blurred to tell, and her thumb turns to get in the way).










So, it is possible that the gem was already missing when Olenna came up to Sansa. But given how closely Olenna was looking, you would think that Olenna would have noticed a missing gem and would have commented on it. So I think it is reasonable to assume that Olenna did take the gem.

It is a good point that someone suggested that the gem does not necessarily need to have poison on it at this time. Olenna could have smuggled poison in separately, and then later put some poison on the gem and left the gem on the table at the same time that she dropped some poison in Joffrey's cup. This would still frame Sansa, but it would be easier than trying to have the poison smuggled in on the necklace.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Nobody killed him. It was just an (un)fortunate accident.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Kablemodem said:


> Nobody killed him. It was just an (un)fortunate accident.


Poison accidentally fell in the wine?


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

There was no poison. He had an allergic reaction.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> The idea that John would respect his oath and not come after whoever he thinks is responsible for hurting Bran and Rickon would be a foreign concept to the Boltons. Not big on keeping oaths.
> 
> Plus probably by now John knows that Roose Bolton was responsible for his mother and brother's deaths, so if he hasn't come after him yet, he's probably not going to.


True. And it could be that Jon would actually be willing to break his oath for Robb or his other two brothers' deaths (were they to happen). (I don't think he would for Catelyn since she pretty much rejected him his whole life.) He hasn't done anything yet, but there are other more important things for him to deal with (White Walkers and wildlings), so even if he considered it for Robb, he would wait.

But if he did that, he would need to watch his back from the Night's Watch and all lords in the land who would uphold those oaths in addition to the Boltons. He would have virtually no support in his plan for revenge, and a good portion of people in the North looking to take off his head.

On the other hand, attacking the Night's Watch gives them a reason to defend themselves. This would give Jon the excuse he needed to fight the Boltons without breaking his oath, and give him their support in doing so. Even if Jon didn't care about revenge, the Night's Watch is still going to defend itself. So Roose is basically turning the chance of a conflict with Jon into a guaranteed war with the Night's Watch.



astrohip said:


> There's also Stannis Baratheon, if he ever gets moving. Melisandre has made it clear to him that the most immediate danger is at the Wall (she saw it in the flames). She even saved Davos' life by agreeing with him, and saying Stannis needs Davos to be his right-hand general as he goes North.
> 
> Doesn't mean he will, as I don't think we've seen _anything _yet to make us think Stannis is moving _anywhere_, but they certainly made it clear the North has some meaning for him.


And he might be someone who would be willing to join the Night's Watch against the Boltons (should the Boltons make it there, and not get into a fight with the wildlings or something). Say what you will about him burning people alive and killing with evil shadow creatures, but I think he still respects the authority of the Night's Watch.



cherry ghost said:


> The last we saw of Yara Greyjoy, she was headed to The Dreadfort to rescue Theon.


Yeah. It's funny that Yara is sailing all the way around Westeros to make her move on The Dreadfort, and then Theon ends up getting sent to Moat Cailin.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

A list of the character that have been played by different actors.

http://uproxx.com/tv/2014/04/a-brand-new-dany-the-complete-history-of-game-of-thrones-recastings/

Jaqen Hghar of course, and more to come.

I think it's interesting when they switch actors when the character gets a line to speak. Those union rules are tough.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DLiquid said:


> I haven't finished reading the thread, so this may have already been posted. Love this version.


Is anyone else bothered by how catchy the tune to this song is? I feel like a traitor every time this song gets stuck in my head, and I start humming it. 

They need to have a Stark theme song to offset the Lannister one.

Maybe something like this:



> And who are you, the proud lord said,
> to try to challenge me?
> Only a girl of a long lost house,
> a bygone family.
> ...


I call it "Winter is Coming".

There, I feel better now.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> True. And it could be that Jon would actually be willing to break his oath for Robb or his other two brothers' deaths (were they to happen). (I don't think he would for Catelyn since she pretty much rejected him his whole life.) He hasn't done anything yet, but there are other more important things for him to deal with (White Walkers and wildlings), so even if he considered it for Robb, he would wait.
> 
> But if he did that, he would need to watch his back from the Night's Watch and all lords in the land who would uphold those oaths in addition to the Boltons. He would have virtually no support in his plan for revenge, and a good portion of people in the North looking to take off his head.
> 
> On the other hand, attacking the Night's Watch gives them a reason to defend themselves. This would give Jon the excuse he needed to fight the Boltons without breaking his oath, and give him their support in doing so. Even if Jon didn't care about revenge, the Night's Watch is still going to defend itself. So Roose is basically turning the chance of a conflict with Jon into a guaranteed war with the Night's Watch.


If Jon wasn't willing to forsake his oath and seek revenge when the Lannisters murdered Ned Stark, why would he be willing to do it for Robb?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> If Jon wasn't willing to forsake his oath and seek revenge when the Lannisters murdered Ned Stark, why would he be willing to do it for Robb?


I don't think he would. I was simply accepting the possibility that he could.

And from Roose Bolton's perspective, the likelihood of Jon breaking his oath would be higher than it is for us, who know how committed he is. He also thinks he can get his hands on Bran and Rickon, who we know aren't at Castle Black.

If he were to kill them, though, I think it would be harder for Jon to accept than Ned's death. Which is not to say he couldn't accept it. But to have Bran and Rickon's deaths at the hands of the Boltons on top of Robb's would increase the probability of him breaking his oath.

My primary point, however, was that even with not knowing how committed Jon was to the Night's Watch, it was still stupid of Bolton to move against them. If Jon keeps his oath, he is contained. If he breaks it, he is alone. But if they attack the Night's Watch, Jon is neither contained nor alone.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> If Jon wasn't willing to forsake his oath and seek revenge when the Lannisters murdered Ned Stark, why would he be willing to do it for Robb?


Not for lack of trying. They had to drag him back kicking and screaming. Plus, Robb was still around to avenge Ned's death.

I actually think Bolton's troops will come in time to save Castle Black!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> A list of the character that have been played by different actors.
> 
> http://uproxx.com/tv/2014/04/a-brand-new-dany-the-complete-history-of-game-of-thrones-recastings/
> 
> ...


I wish they had stuck with the original Dany and Cat.

I read somewhere that the actor playing Joffrey (Gleeson, I think, is his name) was a last minute switch. They had already picked another actor and only auditioned Gleeson because the had agreed to do it (as a favor or something). But he blew them away and they switched to him.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

If Game of Thrones took place entirely on Facebook - Season 4, Episode 2

http://happyplace.someecards.com/30620/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-4-episode-2


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Anubys said:


> I wish they had stuck with the original Dany and Cat.


my only disappointment is the new jaqen, i preferred tom wlaschiha in the role - with a cast this large over so many years, there'll be more re-casting.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> my only disappointment is the new jaqen, i preferred tom wlaschiha in the role - with a cast this large over so many years, there'll be more re-casting.


Yes but that role _had to_ change.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Am I the only one who thinks that "The Rains of Castlmere" sounds a lot like the "Watch chimes" from "For a Few Dollars More"?


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

tiassa said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that "The Rains of *Castlmere*" sounds a lot like the "Watch chimes" from "For a Few Dollars More"?


One of the things I love about people having just seen the TV version of GoT is that we get all sorts of wonderful variations on names and their spellings. Forgivable, since it's not like you are always seeing them in writing, but still fun nonetheless.

I haven't been this delighted since the Walking Dead threads kept butchering Merle's name (Murl? Muerl? Meryl?)


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

astrohip said:


> If Game of Thrones took place entirely on Facebook - Season 4, Episode 2
> 
> http://happyplace.someecards.com/30620/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-4-episode-2


This had me laugh pretty well, since they used the same joke that I did when watching it...

"I used to be pretty, until I took an arrow in the knee"


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> Yes but that role _had to_ change.


Ironically, the guy who could magically change his face is played by actors who look closer to each other than some of the others who had casting changes.

I understand that it is not realistic to expect them to be able to hold onto all of the same actors for the entire time they are needed, especially for the smaller roles. But the least they could do is make them look as similar as possible. It's hard enough keeping track of all the characters without having to figure out that this new face was actually a character we've seen before, but with a completely different hairstyle.

Daario Naharis was still the most egregious, but I had no idea that Rickard Karstark had been in the show in Season 1. (I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they mentioned his name, but the name wasn't important to me until he started making a big deal about Jaime killing his son.)

And I wouldn't have known about Beric Dondarrion had they not specifically had lines mentioning who he was. I actually doubted my memory of what he had looked like in Season 1 when he mentioned that he was the one Ned had sent after The Mountain. Although in his case, his hairstyle is actually fairly close, and the age difference could be justified by the fact that he had been repeatedly killed and resurrected.

Speaking of resurrection, I hope it is purely a coincidence that the episode following Joffrey's death is happening on Easter. Yes, this is a world with zombies. And yes, Beric (and who knows how many others) can be brought back from death (or at least near-death). But curses to any god (the old or the new) who decides to use his or her powers to bring Joffrey back!

(Although I suppose I could accept it if Joffrey came back with no authority whatsoever. To have Joffrey be forced to serve under someone else's thumb might actually be somewhat satisfying.)


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Yes but that role _had to_ change.


It's amazing to me how similar the two actors playing Jaqen H'ghar pictured in http://uproxx.com/tv/2014/04/a-brand-new-dany-the-complete-history-of-game-of-thrones-recastings/ appear, while how different the two actors playing Daario Naharis are. On me, the costume and casting choices have had the opposite of the intended effect.

Then again, I am self-diagnosed with Prosopagnosia and rely mostly on hairstyle and clothing to tell people apart.

ETA: or, what BitbyBlit just said...



BitbyBlit said:


> Speaking of resurrection, I hope it is purely a coincidence that the episode following Joffrey's death is happening on Easter.


You're hoping Joffrey doesn't stay around for the rest of the season as a white walker?


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> Ironically, the guy who could magically change his face is played by actors who look closer to each other than some of the others who had casting changes.
> 
> I understand that it is not realistic to expect them to be able to hold onto all of the same actors for the entire time they are needed, especially for the smaller roles. But the least they could do is make them look as similar as possible.


For me it depends on the part. I'd _rather_ have them be chosen for the ability to act the part than look the part (although I think Huisman and Skrein both bracket what I would call the ideal Daario). For a lot of these cases, however, the change is more or less cosmetic. It's not like the Mountain is a big speaking role (indeed, I'm not sure from recollection if the Mountain spoke in the first two actors' appearances). And Beric Dondarrion's appearances in S1 was so short that I'm not sure that people would know the difference if not called out.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Kablemodem said:


> There was no poison. He had an allergic reaction.


Joffrey was allergic to marriage.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I'm bored with this thread. Counting down to Sunday....


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I finally watched the episode last night (we were a couple weeks behind). It was nice to finally see the scenes that were being discussed.  I loved how Tyrion looked as he examined the cup after the incident. "Hmm there must have been something in this cup...Hey why is everyone looking at me...Oh ^$$#!"


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> I'm bored with this thread. Counting down to Sunday....


But, but, we have at least three more days worth of postulating about Sansa's necklace!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

getreal said:


> Joffrey was allergic to marriage.


I dunno about Joffrey, but Margery sure seems to be.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ereth said:


> I dunno about Joffrey, but Margery sure seems to be.


Or marriage is allergic to her...


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Ereth said:


> I dunno about Joffrey, but Margery sure seems to be.


I got it! Margery is a black widow who keeps offing her new husbands for the insurance money!......errrr....


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I can't get the idea out of my mind that the simple answer is usually right. The simple answer is that the poison was in the pie since he chocked right after eating it. But that answer just doesn't make any sense given everything else that happened.

Argh.

All the stuff about the necklace would be a diversion. But from what? why wouldn't a lush like Cersei not take even a sip of wine? 

I really hope we get answers soon and it's not an unsolved mystery.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I watched it again tonight. I caught something in the episode that I had not caught before. It's not because I knew to look for it, but rather it caught my eye, because the TV happened to be on HBO and the show was at the point where Joffrey was pouring wine on Tyrions head when I turned it on, and so I only had a short bit to watch.

But I'm a book reader and I'm feeling like I shouldn't say anything, even though what I saw was not from my memory of the book.

ARRRGGH! This is harder than it looks!


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

Ereth said:


> I watched it again tonight. I caught something in the episode that I had not caught before. It's not because I knew to look for it, but rather it caught my eye, because the TV happened to be on HBO and the show was at the point where Joffrey was pouring wine on Tyrions head when I turned it on, and so I only had a short bit to watch. But I'm a book reader and I'm feeling like I shouldn't say anything, even though what I saw was not from my memory of the book. ARRRGGH! This is harder than it looks!


Thanks for keeping it to yourself, I know it's not easy. I'm going to start the books soon. (Finally!)


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> I can't get the idea out of my mind that the simple answer is usually right. The simple answer is that the poison was in the pie since he chocked right after eating it.


Actually, he choked right after drinking the wine which he drank right after eating the pie.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

*Could the Game of Thrones poisoning happen in real life?*
http://boingboing.net/2014/04/18/poison.html

with a great picture of the dead Joffrey.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> Actually, he choked right after drinking the wine which he drank right after eating the pie.


I know, but I assume it would take the poison 10 seconds before taking effect. There is still the possibility of the poison being mixed (1 part pie, 1 part wine). So someone taking one or the other - but not both - would be ok.

I'm sticking with my theory that it was the Tryrells trying to kill Tywin and Cersei. But I can't reconcile how Joffrey died very quickly after the pie (and that the wine was left close to Olena for a good chunk of time).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Just watched the relevant 5 minutes to see if I could see what Ereth is talking about. I could not see anything unusual.

However, I did see a couple of things:

1. I saw Cersei taking a sip of her wine. So unless it's the 2-stage poison, my theory is shot.
2. The pie was immediately served to many guest. Olena is even seen with a bite on her fork. So Joffrey was not alone in eating the pie.
3. There is a King's guard standing right behind Olena (a little to her left, between her and where Margerie would sit). No way Olena could poison the goblet after Margerie set it down without him seeing her.

The only person who could have poisoned the wine without being noticed is Olena with her "clink" or Margerie when she handled the goblet (and Tyrion, of course).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> Actually, he choked right after drinking the wine which he drank right after eating the pie.


now that I watched it again, you're right...way too much time between the pie and the symptoms. But it was right after the wine.

sigh. I need to let this go, but I can't. I've seriously contemplated looking for spoilers at this point but have so far been able to stop myself. If they don't tell us this sunday, I'm worried about my health


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

smbaker said:


> You're hoping Joffrey doesn't stay around for the rest of the season as a white walker?


Heh. Only if it turns out White Walkers can be created by magical necklaces, and whoever owns such a necklace (it has to be given; it can't be stolen) gets to control anyone who was made into the undead using one of its gems. That would be one way Jack Gleeson would be able to continue being on the show without having to act. 

Although, aren't White Walkers just the guys like the one killed by Sam and the one at the end of Season 2 that held up his sword and screamed at the camera? I know some of the undead can be killed by fire, but others need dragon glass. And I thought only the dragon glass guys were White Walkers. I don't remember what they called the other undead.

Anyway, it would by fun if in some future season they hire Jack Gleeson back, and let it leak that he had been hired. If by then they were ahead of the books, there would be rampant speculation by everyone about what this would mean. Most would probably figure it would be some kind of flashback or dream sequence like the one with Daenerys and Drogo. Some might think Cersei would go mad and start talking to an imaginary Joffrey.

The day would come with the episode where Jack appears, everyone would be sitting at the edge of their seats waiting to see what would happened, and then Jack would appear on the screen, not as Joffrey, but as some nameless background peasant with no lines.

Hey, if they can have two completely different-looking actors play the same character, why not have the same actor play two completely different characters?

Plus, if they have a Season 8, April 1st is on Sunday.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

kaszeta said:


> For me it depends on the part. I'd _rather_ have them be chosen for the ability to act the part than look the part (although I think Huisman and Skrein both bracket what I would call the ideal Daario). For a lot of these cases, however, the change is more or less cosmetic. It's not like the Mountain is a big speaking role (indeed, I'm not sure from recollection if the Mountain spoke in the first two actors' appearances). And Beric Dondarrion's appearances in S1 was so short that I'm not sure that people would know the difference if not called out.


Oh yeah, especially with how nuanced many of these characters are written. I would take an actor that better played the part over one that better looked the part any day. I just wished they'd at least keep the hair styles the same! But I guess for the smaller roles it might not be worth it to make wigs and/or require actors to grow their hair to a certain length.

It can just get confusing sometimes because we are in a world where some people can actually change their faces. Part of what added to the confusion for me with Daario was that I had earlier theorized that he was Jaqen H'ghar. The fact that he was from Bravos and the scene with the coins when he was with his two soon-to-be ex-partners made me think that perhaps the business Jaqen had told Arya about had to do with Daenerys and her dragons.

Once it became clear that he seemed to be extremely attracted to Daenerys, and wanted to be one of her right-hand men, I discounted that theory because Jaqen seemed like the kind of guy who preferred to work in the shadows, not be in such a public position.

But as soon as I saw the new Daario, for a few moments I thought that my theory had actually been right, and he was Jaqen. A bunch of questions started pouring into my head. Did everyone know he had changed? Why would he change in such a visible manner? Did he change only for Daenerys and perhaps some of the other leaders, and they pretended that he was some new guy? Did his treachery force him to hide, and thus trust all of Daenerys' group to not reveal his secret?

But as soon as they started talking, and everyone seemed to be ignoring the elephant in the room, I figured it must be because the elephant was invisible to them. So I settled on Darrio either being played by a new actor or a new character that I was confusing with the guy from the previous season.

That was really the only one that seriously confused me, however, so the rest are just me giving HBO a hard time.

Beric was probably the second most "confusing", and with him they explained exactly who he was. So the only minor question I had because of the fact that he looked so different was whether or not he was the leader of the group Ned had sent. I made a mental note to pay close attention the next time I watched Season 1 to try to find him, but now I guess I don't have to.

The fact that they do end up having to change these actors is a testament to how Martin plants seeds early in the story with seemingly unimportant characters, and has them grow into something that has a nice payoff. After Ned sent the men against The Mountain, and we didn't hear anything more about it, I figured that the scene was just illustrating how noble Ned was.

As soon as Beric said who he was, I thought it was awesome that a scene that I thought was just a throwaway ended up becoming something important. Ned's actions had indirectly led to the formation of the Brotherhood Without Banners. And while we haven't seen too much of them, I'm sure their ties with the Lord of Light will play an important role.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

i'm just glad king justin bieber is gone.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> Anyway, it would by fun if in some future season they hire Jack Gleeson back, and let it leak that he had been hired. If by then they were ahead of the books, there would be rampant speculation by everyone about what this would mean. Most would probably figure it would be some kind of flashback or dream sequence like the one with Daenerys and Drogo. Some might think Cersei would go mad and start talking to an imaginary Joffrey.
> 
> The day would come with the episode where Jack appears, everyone would be sitting at the edge of their seats waiting to see what would happened, and then Jack would appear on the screen, not as Joffrey, but as some nameless background peasant with no lines.
> 
> ...


You just came up with the money making idea, "Game of Thrones, the Prequel" premiering on HBO April 2023.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ereth said:


> But I'm a book reader and I'm feeling like I shouldn't say anything, even though what I saw was not from my memory of the book.
> 
> ARRRGGH! This is harder than it looks!


Can you post it in the book reader's thread? Please!


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

MikeAndrews said:


> You just came up with the money making idea, "Game of Thrones, the Prequel" premiering on HBO April 2023.


Actually, I've thought it would be cool if they did just the opposite: Create a Game of Thrones series or mini-series set in a time when the current kids on the show are grown up.

We know a long winter is coming, and since they are already into Season 4, they are probably not going to get very far into this winter by the time the TV show ends.

So what if in the 2020s, they had a follow-up series set in the midst of the long winter, and they got as many of the original cast (whose characters were still alive ) as they could?

It would be cool to see the actors who played themselves as kids coming back to play themselves as adults.

But to satisfy our appetites between the series', they should also do a movie about the war where Aerys (the Mad King) was overthrown.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> Actually, I've thought it would be cool if they did just the opposite: Create a Game of Thrones series or mini-series set in a time when the current kids on the show are grown up. We know a long winter is coming, and since they are already into Season 4, they are probably not going to get very far into this winter by the time the TV show


Call it How I Killed Your Father?

And why are you assuming Winter ever gets here ?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> And why are you assuming Winter ever gets here ?


Only because I figure Winter needs to come in order for a full on invasion of Westeros by the White Walkers. Now, I know this is Game of Thrones we are talking about, where epic plans can fall apart at any moment. But for the time being, I still think that invasion is going to happen.

Hopefully there's going to be some payoff to Daenerys and Bran's visions other than, "It's just something they saw that will eventually happen, but you won't get to see it."


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> Only because I figure Winter needs to come in order for a full on invasion of Westeros by the White Walkers. Now, I know this is Game of Thrones we are talking about, where epic plans can fall apart at any moment. But for the time being, I still think that invasion is going to happen. Hopefully there's going to be some payoff to Daenerys and Bran's visions other than, "It's just something they saw that will eventually happen, but you won't get to see it."


This is also Game of Thrones where the writer drags things out for forever while killing everyone off.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> This is also Game of Thrones where the writer drags things out for forever while killing everyone off.


Heh. Maybe Winter finally comes in the series finale, and in that episode, the White Walkers end up killing everyone we both love and hate.

Leave it to Martin to write a story where the demonic forces end up winning.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Well, if Red Lady is right and there are only the powers of light and dark, and she's the good guy......I'm not sure it matters who wins.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> Heh. Maybe Winter finally comes in the series finale, and in that episode, the White Walkers end up killing everyone we both love and hate. Leave it to Martin to write a story where the demonic forces end up winning.


I like it. Better ending than HIMYM.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

It would be great if the whole show turns out to be a promo for an Edgar Winter concert tour.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)




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