# Only the cheapest one with antenna? No thanks



## keithlm (Apr 5, 2012)

Only the cheapest of these new devices lets me use a regular off the air antenna? 

Mark me down for a "no" on this one. (And if they don't soon come out with something to update what I have now... it might be a "no" to my monthly account as it is.)

Who was the genius at Tivo that decided to alienate a huge amount of people and perhaps lose a lot of business in the future? (And these people get paid to make choices like this? It boggles the mind.)


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

I think it's just based on the features of the available chipsets. But I dunno. Most of the demand for multi-tuner devices is from cable companies, so the chips to support a six-tuner device are more available for that.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Until someone posts a photo of the internals of the Roamio we won't really know how different the layout needed to be for OTA.

You can see a shot of the Pro in this thread.


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## jalaram (Apr 13, 2012)

True, maybe they can get a 4-tuner for ATSC easily, but not a 6-tuner one.


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## JohnnyO (Nov 3, 2002)

jalaram said:


> True, maybe they can get a 4-tuner for ATSC easily, but not a 6-tuner one.


My frustration is that even with the OTA-capable box, it is EITHER cable OR OTA, not both at the same time.

I'm losing a key feature from my older TiVos, but I did decide to order one anyway. I would have gladly paid for the Plus or Pro if it had the ability to do OTA and Cable. I guess I'm in a tiny minority.


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## Tico (Dec 10, 2002)

I don't think anyone has a more than 4tuner ota chip available. That is likely the bottleneck.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

jalaram said:


> True, maybe they can get a 4-tuner for ATSC easily, but not a 6-tuner one.


That's undeniably the case. No manufacturer seems interested in pushing the frontiers of OTA any more!


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

jalaram said:


> True, maybe they can get a 4-tuner for ATSC easily, but not a 6-tuner one.


Jafe who works with a company who develops PC tuners, just blanked on the name, has said in the past OTA is well behind in terms of tech when compared to cable tuners.

I believe this is the first 4 tuner OTA device not just by TiVo but any company. I know when I looked on PC you could only get dual tuner cards for OTA.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

JohnnyO said:


> My frustration is that even with the OTA-capable box, it is EITHER cable OR OTA, not both at the same time.


Is that documented somewhere? I hadn't seen it.

In any case, as a cord cutter, I'm quite happy with a 4 tuner OTA cheap model. Seems like just what I want! :up:


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## Tico (Dec 10, 2002)

hefe said:


> Is that documented somewhere? I hadn't seen it.
> 
> In any case, as a cord cutter, I'm quite happy with a 4 tuner OTA cheap model. Seems like just what I want! :up:


there is only one RF input so it has to be one or the other.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

It's indicated by the fact that there is only one RF input on the back, unlike the S3 boxes which have both cable and antenna RF inputs. Also indicated by some official documentation that I've come across.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

One thought I read in another thread is whether it might work with a diplexer. I would guess not, but might be worth a try for those who have both OTA and cable and bought a Roamio.

I would guess if this worked TiVo would sell the adapter and mention it as a requirement.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Tico said:


> there is only one RF input so it has to be one or the other.


Ah, makes sense. Although, I'd think you could combine the signals on one line, but that's a complexity that most people won't deal with.


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## Tico (Dec 10, 2002)

You may be able to combine but I am sure the Tivo software isn't built for that. I am sure you will have to choose one or the other on guided setup.


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## BiloxiGeek (Nov 18, 2001)

innocentfreak said:


> One thought I read in another thread is whether it might work with a diplexer. I would guess not, but might be worth a try for those who have both OTA and cable and bought a Roamio.
> 
> I would guess if this worked TiVo would sell the adapter and mention it as a requirement.


Wouldn't you run into channel mapping issues whenever you switched the diplexer from OTA to cable and back again?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

BiloxiGeek said:


> Wouldn't you run into channel mapping issues whenever you switched the diplexer from OTA to cable and back again?


I thought some of the diplexers didn't need to be switched though and just combined the feeds.

I have never messed with them so I am not really sure.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I just checked the setup instructions online, and indeed, you select your source as EITHER antenna OR cable.


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## BiloxiGeek (Nov 18, 2001)

innocentfreak said:


> I thought some of the diplexers didn't need to be switched though and just combined the feeds.
> 
> I have never messed with them so I am not really sure.


You might be right, I've seen them in use but never on any of my systems so I'm not sure exactly how the nuts & bolts all tie together. It was just a passing thought.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

keithlm said:


> Only the cheapest of these new devices lets me use a regular off the air antenna?
> 
> Mark me down for a "no" on this one. (And if they don't soon come out with something to update what I have now... it might be a "no" to my monthly account as it is.)
> 
> Who was the genius at Tivo that decided to alienate a huge amount of people and perhaps lose a lot of business in the future? (And these people get paid to make choices like this? It boggles the mind.)


I have to ask - have you thought through your comments?

I can understand the people who use both cable and OTA wanting a new unit that can do both at the same time. But honestly if you are OTA only the new Roamio base unit is the only 4 tuner OTA DVR you can buy and from what I can see likely the best OTA DVR ever built by anyone. Turning that into a negative and a reason to leave TiVo given the alternatives available for OTA DVRs seems a little foolish to me.


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## Doh (May 18, 2001)

Having to choose between better streaming and OTA bothers me more than having to choose between 6 tuners and OTA.


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## Tico (Dec 10, 2002)

The real problem with the diaplexer is you cannot combine OTA and cable signal together. They both work in the same frequency range so they would both screwed other up.
You would have to do it with something like an old school AB switch. And then the TiVo software would have to support both OTA and cable on one tuner at the same time.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> I thought some of the diplexers didn't need to be switched though and just combined the feeds.
> 
> I have never messed with them so I am not really sure.


A diplexer should combine all frequencies that don't overlap. But the question of whether the Tivo guide will allow channels from OTA and cable is unanswered.


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## Tico (Dec 10, 2002)

DaveDFW said:


> A diplexer should combine all frequencies that don't overlap. But the question of whether the Tivo guide will allow channels from OTA and cable is unanswered.


And ota and cable do overlap on all their frequencies.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Doh said:


> Having to choose between better streaming and OTA bothers me more than having to choose between 6 tuners and OTA.


I must be a little slow today how are you having to choose between better streaming and OTA?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

DaveDFW said:


> A diplexer should combine all frequencies that don't overlap. But the question of whether the Tivo guide will allow channels from OTA and cable is unanswered.


No it isn't.


hefe said:


> I just checked the setup instructions online, and indeed, you select your source as EITHER antenna OR cable.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

JUst buy 2 Tivos. Problem solved.


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## ppartekim (Jan 18, 2007)

hefe said:


> Is that documented somewhere? I hadn't seen it.
> 
> In any case, as a cord cutter, I'm quite happy with a 4 tuner OTA cheap model. Seems like just what I want! :up:


As another cord cutter, I love the 4-tuner OTA bit. To combine my two S3s into one unit with RF remote...  No more trying to remember what was recorded on which one..

I just wish it had a bigger hard drive. My two S3s combined have 2TB so going down to 500GB or 1.5TB (with an external drive attached) is still going backwards..


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

ppartekim said:


> I just wish it had a bigger hard drive. My two S3s combined have 2TB so going down to 500GB or 1.5TB (with an external drive attached) is still going backwards..


I'm sure that will be easy enough. I bought the cheapest Premiere, and upgraded to a 2TB drive quite easily. I'll just wait to see when someone comes up with the upgrade procedure.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

hefe said:


> No it isn't.


I didn't see that. If the online setup guide is correct, then the base Roamio will not accommodate those users who wish to use a combination of cable and OTA.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

DaveDFW said:


> I didn't see that. If the online setup guide is correct, then the base Roamio will not accommodate those users who wish to use a combination of cable and OTA.


That is true. I wonder if that's a large number of people. Seems like Joe Consumer would pretty much just do one or the other.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

hefe said:


> That is true. I wonder if that's a large number of people. Seems like Joe Consumer would pretty much just do one or the other.


Also none of these new units can do analog (cable or OTA) and I know there are a few people who have stated their cable companies still have some analog only channels. Personally I am glad they found a way to continue to support OTA - I was beginning to worry that the 2 tuner Premiere might be their last OTA DVR.


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## zgamer (Oct 13, 2007)

hefe said:


> I'm sure that will be easy enough. I bought the cheapest Premiere, and upgraded to a 2TB drive quite easily. I'll just wait to see when someone comes up with the upgrade procedure.


Really depends if the internal drive is a 2.5" or 3.5". As the form factor is smaller they could have moved to a 2.5" drive.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

zgamer said:


> Really depends if the internal drive is a 2.5" or 3.5". As the form factor is smaller they could have moved to a 2.5" drive.


I guess that would make it a bit more expensive, but not impossible. If it's not upgradeable, that would be a big issue for me.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

I have to hang on to what I have, again.

TiVo is insufficient for the situation where I live, it keeps the smaller New England States from accessing one of the country's top ten media markets in Boston with an antenna while keeping cable on one guide. 

Hello, Chromecast at $35 for future streaming introductions.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Has anyone pointed out yet that there are only 4 OTA channels worth watching?

I mean, sure you have some tiny channels... but like, you can record NBC, ABC, Fox and CBS all at the same time. What are the 2 other tuners doing? Watching the public broadcast system?

I am sure that's why no one makes a 6 channel chip. There's only 4 channels.


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

For me, I don't see much reason to have OTA and digital cable at the same time. 

I would have liked to have seen OTA and analog cable support. That way I could get my OTA HD and my basic cable channels without renting a cablecard.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> Has anyone pointed out yet that there are only 4 OTA channels worth watching?
> 
> I mean, sure you have some tiny channels... but like, you can record NBC, ABC, Fox and CBS all at the same time. What are the 2 other tuners doing? Watching the public broadcast system?
> 
> I am sure that's why no one makes a 6 channel chip. There's only 4 channels.


I could have said the same for satellite when I subbed as I only watched a few channels. The reality is there are places that have dozens of OTA channels the fact you may not be interesting in the programing on them doesn't mean others aren't. I regular record from ABC, CBS, CW, NBS, Fox, & PBS and sometimes form ION and some of the PBS sub channels. Without padding I don't believe I have ever needed more than 4 tuners (I have 8 available), but there are times when I need to pad because of live events.


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## ppartekim (Jan 18, 2007)

Grakthis said:


> Has anyone pointed out yet that there are only 4 OTA channels worth watching?
> 
> I mean, sure you have some tiny channels... but like, you can record NBC, ABC, Fox and CBS all at the same time. What are the 2 other tuners doing? Watching the public broadcast system?
> 
> I am sure that's why no one makes a 6 channel chip. There's only 4 channels.


In the Bay Area here, OTA has like 60 channels available, granted many are PBS and non-english (and some dup networks) but that still leaves 20+. All 5 (if included CW) networks, PBS and several Independent (e.g., ION, KOFY, KRON, KICU) and now several retro sub-channels (AntennaTV, Cozi, etc). There are times I do have all four of my tuners (2-S3s) recording at once or within the same 60 minute period. Absolutely, no reason to pay for cable as I have more than enough free TV to watch (or stream...if needed)..


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I just discovered by accident that even though the local CW channel is broadcast on cable in SD you can actually pick it up OTA in HD. Apparently it's a low power station that is then rebroadcast as SD on a sub-channel of a high power station. For some reason Charter uses the SD sub-channel rather then the HD source.

In any case I have a cheap rabbit ear type antenna and I can pick it up with about 70% power, which seems to be enough, so I reran GS on my Premiere for Cable & Antenna and set my two CW season passes (Arrow and Supernatural) to use the antenna instead. 

Since I still have about 30 channels that are analog only I have to keep the Premiere around anyway. However I never really use it directly. I typically watch everything it records via streaming on my Elite anyway. So if I replace the Elite with a Roamio then I'll have the best of all worlds.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

atmuscarella said:


> I must be a little slow today how are you having to choose between better streaming and OTA?


My guess: Stream capability embedded in the box vs standalone Stream box.


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## jgolden (Feb 17, 2003)

As a TimeWarner customer I found out how valuable having the OTA capability is when TimeWarner cut off CBS. I don't know how long this will go on, but I am glad I can still record some programs if I choose over the air and more over cable.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

zgamer said:


> Really depends if the internal drive is a 2.5" or 3.5". As the form factor is smaller they could have moved to a 2.5" drive.


3.5" has been confirmed, so that's cool.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

JohnnyO said:


> My frustration is that even with the OTA-capable box, it is EITHER cable OR OTA, not both at the same time.


Exactly. That was a *HUGE* letdown for me. I use BOTH at the same time- OTA is always a much better picture and a decent backup if cable fails.



> I'm losing a key feature from my older TiVos, but I did decide to order one anyway. I would have gladly paid for the Plus or Pro if it had the ability to do OTA and Cable. I guess I'm in a tiny minority.


We ARE a minority, but you are not alone.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

trip1eX said:


> JUst buy 2 Tivos. Problem solved.


Not really


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

SugarBowl said:


> For me, I don't see much reason to have OTA and digital cable at the same time. .


OTA picture quality is almost always MUCH better than cable, which lowers the bitrate and re-compresses. And sometimes cable providers do not carry all the channels that are available OTA. And then there are the stupid fights and channel blackouts.

I have been using dual on the HD and Premiere happily for years.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

atmuscarella said:


> The reality is there are places that have dozens of OTA channels the fact you may not be interesting in the programing on them doesn't mean others aren't. I regular record from ABC, CBS, CW, NBS, Fox, & PBS and sometimes form ION and some of the PBS sub channels. Without padding I don't believe I have ever needed more than 4 tuners (I have 8 available), but there are times when I need to pad because of live events.


Exactly. If you want to pad, that will double your tuner usage right there, for a short time, anyway. I have been in a jam a few times with just 2 tuners.


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## infinitespecter (Jul 23, 2004)

crxssi said:


> Exactly. That was a *HUGE* letdown for me. I use BOTH at the same time- OTA is always a much better picture and a decent backup if cable fails.


Don't forget all of us in the middle of the TWC/CBS war. The only way I can get CBS and several other channels is OTA for the time being. Just being able to hook up an antenna and add 2-1 and 9-1 back is a big benefit.

What i would love to see is for TiVo to do something like what Moxi did a few years ago... add support for USB OTA tuners. Those who need them could simply plug them in and those who don't won't.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

infinitespecter said:


> What i would love to see is for TiVo to do something like what Moxi did a few years ago... add support for USB OTA tuners. Those who need them could simply plug them in and those who don't won't.


That is an EXCELLENT idea. Even it if was a single tuner, it would make for a great addon.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

crxssi said:


> OTA picture quality is almost always MUCH better than cable, which lowers the bitrate and re-compresses...


I can tell you from first hand experience that OTA broadcasters do the exact same thing to take advantage of their ~19Mbps HD bandwidth so they can squeeze in a sub-channel or two. The NBC affiliate I worked for as the transmitter engineer took our HD channel bandwidth from about 19 to 12 Mbps. Of course who knows what comcast did to it once they received it from us.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

HarperVision said:


> I can tell you from first hand experience that OTA broadcasters do the exact same thing to take advantage of their ~19Mbps HD bandwidth so they can squeeze in a sub-channel or two. The NBC affiliate I worked for as the transmitter engineer took our HD channel bandwidth from about 19 to 12 Mbps. Of course who knows what comcast did to it once they received it from us.


In some areas, cable can actually provide the local stations at a higher quality than OTA when they get the feed from fiber. I know my local Charter doesn't compress the local OTA stations at all.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

HarperVision said:


> I can tell you from first hand experience that OTA broadcasters do the exact same thing to take advantage of their ~19Mbps HD bandwidth so they can squeeze in a sub-channel or two. The NBC affiliate I worked for as the transmitter engineer took our HD channel bandwidth from about 19 to 12 Mbps. Of course who knows what comcast did to it once they received it from us.


I have compared the bitrate from all my OTA HD stations to Cox. It was a long time ago, and I don't recall the exact numbers, but there was a huge difference. I was amazed they could re-compress (transcode) 1080i on the fly like that. It is also how they are able to add overlays if they wish.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

crxssi said:


> Hmm, I just found some partial notes showing what WAS being broadcast by some of the local OTA HD in 2007, but nothing about Cox:
> 
> WHRO-HD 1080i 65,000 kbps
> WAVY-DT: 1080i 65,000 kbps
> ...


That's impossible. The ATSC spec has a maximum bitrate of 19.2Mbps or 19,200 kbps. All of the above values exceed that except one.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

The way I look at it, I'd have to keep my Premier XL for analog cable anyway so I have 4-6 tuners for OTA, which is what I primarily watch, and up to 2 tuners for analog cable.


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## randywalters (Oct 21, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> JUst buy 2 Tivos. Problem solved.


No, that actually creates even more problems.

That would be twice the cost to buy two Tivos.

Twice the subscription fee (or Lifetime fee).

The remote will operate both Tivos simultaneously so that's no good.

Two Tivos would take up two HDMI inputs instead of just one (and there is no Component Video output on the base model so that's no help).

Would cause you have to switch TV inputs just to switch from an OTA channel to a Cable channel.

I don't have any of these problems with my trusty old S3 - i need to be able to simultaneously record a race on ESPN and a game on CBS OTA seamlessly like i do on my S3 and none of the Roamios can do this.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

hefe said:


> Is that documented somewhere? I hadn't seen it.
> 
> In any case, as a cord cutter, I'm quite happy with a 4 tuner OTA cheap model. Seems like just what I want! :up:


I may become a cord cutter so the basic model is my choice. 
I don't want to be boxed in with the other models. 


ppartekim said:


> In the Bay Area here, OTA has like 60 channels available, granted many are PBS and non-english (and some dup networks) but that still leaves 20+.


We have many in the Denver area also. 


crxssi said:


> OTA is always a much better picture and a decent backup if cable fails.


How difficult would it be to configure it to OTA if cable fails?


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

crxssi said:


> Exactly. That was a *HUGE* letdown for me. I use BOTH at the same time- OTA is always a much better picture and a decent backup if cable fails.
> 
> We ARE a minority, but you are not alone.


I have a S2DT, analog cable, TivoHD, OTA Digital HD and SD (yes, there are some tiny low power stations that still broadcast analog, mostly religious channels and some sports), Digital Cable, and Analog Cable (which has some channels I don't get via digital)

:up: I am Native American, Jewish, and now _another_ minority! 

I want a four tuner that supports OTA, analog cable and digital cable. Does any of the new offerings have that so I can replace my S2DT and TivoHD? (I need (want) four tuners on one device for easy scheduling).


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

justen_m said:


> I want a four tuner that supports OTA, analog cable and digital cable. Does any of the new offerings have that so I can replace my S2DT and TivoHD?


Analog is dead.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> That's impossible. The ATSC spec has a maximum bitrate of 19.2Mbps or 19,200 kbps. All of the above values exceed that except one.


Hmm, right you are. I pasted it right from my notes, so I am not sure what happened. I can't remember six years ago! I will strike it from my other posting.


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## JohnnyO (Nov 3, 2002)

crxssi said:


> We ARE a minority, but you are not alone.


Thanks. I think we need to create a support group.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

JohnnyO said:


> Thanks. I think we need to create a support group.


And a 10 step program...


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## Antitrust (Aug 22, 2013)

Are you all not aware of a major cable company and a major network not agreeing to terms? Are you not aware that one of the major networks are not being transmitted to one of the major cable providers? Now wouldn't it have been great for those that are in that cable providers area to be able to pull in that major network ota? But wait ... For "other reasons" somehow tivo won't allow the consumer to pull in ota networks that a cable provider blocks on its latest product. How convenient... Look folks, the cable companies don't want a major dvr to pull in both cable and ota simultaneously, and tivo is happy to oblige. Thats the real reason they phased out dual inputs. Nor do the cable companies want there to be an ota dvr that can effectively organize online content as well as ota networks in one seamless package. Such a dvr would be exactly what the new generation used to browsing the Internet could use to cut the cord and be able to get network tv at their convenience along with Internet media (Netflix hulu etc.) it would be a huge threat to the cable companies. So not to offend their cable company partners tivo creates a hobbled base model with 10/100 ethernet and only one input either cable or antenna. And in doing so they missed the boat, the future is Internet media,and its only a matter of time until some forward looking company seizes the moment and provides the product that does that. Sad thing is, it could have been tivo,they have the software that integrates network TV and Internet . In a hobbled base model that most cord cutters will pass on...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmcbrine said:


> Analog is dead.


I wish! My cable company still has about 30 channels that are offered only as analog. Including Comedy Central, AMC and FX all of which I record shows from regularly. Also pretty much all the kids channels like Disney, Nick, Cartoon Network, etc... and all the 24 hour news channels as well. If they'd at least simulcast then I could get rid of my 2 tuner Premiere.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Antitrust said:


> Are you all not aware of a major cable company and a major network not agreeing to terms? Are you not aware that one of the major networks are not being transmitted to one of the major cable providers? Now wouldn't it have been great for those that are in that cable providers area to be able to pull in that major network ota? But wait ... For "other reasons" somehow tivo won't allow the consumer to pull in ota networks that a cable provider blocks on its latest product. How convenient... Look folks, the cable companies don't want a major dvr to pull in both cable and ota simultaneously, and tivo is happy to oblige. Thats the real reason they phased out dual inputs. Nor do the cable companies want there to be an ota dvr that can effectively organize online content as well as ota networks in one seamless package. Such a dvr would be exactly what the new generation used to browsing the Internet could use to cut the cord and be able to get network tv at their convenience along with Internet media (Netflix hulu etc.) it would be a huge threat to the cable companies. So not to offend their cable company partners tivo creates a hobbled base model with 10/100 ethernet and only one input either cable or antenna. And in doing so they missed the boat, the future is Internet media,and its only a matter of time until some forward looking company seizes the moment and provides the product that does that. Sad thing is, it could have been tivo,they have the software that does just that... In a hobbled base model


The design decisions on this were likely made at least a year ago, long before the CBS/TW dispute. And I'm sure if TiVo could have offered an economical 4 tuner box that could do both OTA and Cable they would have. Doing it the way they did was likely a way to keep costs down and prices low. And unfortunately there isn't enough of a market for a premium model in that space.


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## Antitrust (Aug 22, 2013)

The bottom line is that millions are fed up with their cable bills and would be thrilled to cut the cable and get content from streaming plus ota network but they are dependent on cable so don't break away... A solution that integrates ota and Internet streaming with a sophisticated search mechanism Fits the bill perfecctly ... tivo is on the verge of that solution and yet has failed to capitalize on it... ... Cable cutters that retain internet reduce their cable bill by$100/mo or more, I would think there would be a huge market out there ...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

What? If you want to cut the cord then the TiVo is perfect. Your first post sounded like you were upset because the TiVo didn't do OTA and Cable any more. I don't follow your logic.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Maybe there's a gas leak...


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Antitrust said:


> The bottom line is that millions are fed up with their cable bills and would be thrilled to cut the cable and get content from streaming plus ota network but they are dependent on cable so don't break away... A solution that integrates ota and Internet streaming with a sophisticated search mechanism Fits the bill perfecctly ... tivo is on the verge of that solution and yet has failed to capitalize on it... ... Cable cutters that retain internet reduce their cable bill by$100/mo or more, I would think there would be a huge market out there ...


 OTA doesn't work for thousands of people. This OTA entry unit is designed to blow Channel Master out the water as much as anything in a very niche market. Tivo is as much doing OTA users of Tivo's a favor with this unit. 4 tuners and it records and it doesn't need a computer for 200.00 isn't bad. The growth is in the higher end units. 
Tivo could have easily just left the OTA market leaving people to flail and wail and fixing older units for years to come.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Grakthis said:


> Has anyone pointed out yet that there are only 4 OTA channels worth watching?
> 
> I mean, sure you have some tiny channels... but like, you can record NBC, ABC, Fox and CBS all at the same time. What are the 2 other tuners doing? Watching the public broadcast system?
> 
> I am sure that's why no one makes a 6 channel chip. There's only 4 channels.


 Add the CW and it's five.  It should also be pointed out that every time you add a tuner you're splitting signal strength, even with digital can be a problem at times. A 6 tuner OTA will probably need a fan also.


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## Antitrust (Aug 22, 2013)

On the one hand you can.t use the base model to record ota and cable at the same time to solve the blackout issues if you do choose to keep cable... And if you choose to cut the cord, you are limited to the base model with Ethernet capability that is weaker than those models that are cable only. For not to much more they could have had a solid ota product with dual inputs and strong Ethernet that wouldn't leave the potential customer feeling that they getting something lacking in both areas, and that in both cases the product weaknesses somehow end up bolstering the position of cable companies.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm sure TiVo knows how many of their customers are actually using OTA, including those using both OTA and cable, and made a decision based on that info. If they really thought there was a market for a higher end unit with OTA then we'd have one. It's not like they're doing it out of spite. Like everything in the corporate world it's about money and what they think they can sell. If this was really the booming market segment you seem to think then why aren't there any other companies selling OTA DVRs?

The reality is that most cord cutters do it to save money, so it makes sense to make the OTA TiVo as inexpensive as possible. Know your audience.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Grakthis said:


> Has anyone pointed out yet that there are only 4 OTA channels worth watching?
> 
> I mean, sure you have some tiny channels... but like, you can record NBC, ABC, Fox and CBS all at the same time. What are the 2 other tuners doing? Watching the public broadcast system?
> 
> I am sure that's why no one makes a 6 channel chip. There's only 4 channels.


In addition to the 4 nets and The CW (5 prime-time original programming channels so far in our count), and local ION channel, there are public TV stations (multiple in some markets), the increasingly popular on OTA only MeTV, Anntenna TV, This TV, and Cozi TV, MOVIE channel (a pretty darn good movie channel on OTA), Bounce, Mega Hertz World (really good, unique content) plus if some households speak a foreign language, the number of OTA channels BLOOM with a lot of channels.

OK, in my L.A. market, I am interested in and record ONLY 26 OTA channels. That's TWENTY-SIX OTA channels with content in ENGLISH worth watching out of a total of about 146 or more OTA channels (and still growing) I receive. I am satisfied with a 4 tuner OTA DVR, but I certainly would buy the 6 tuner model if TiVo offered it with OTA capability, and, yes, one would have 5 or 6 simultaneous recordings with OTA. Right now I have to span it over a number of TiVo's. However, I understand that the money is just not in OTA right now, and TiVo wasn't going to make a more expensive OTA capable box for cord cutters who loath spending money on TV.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

infinitespecter said:


> Don't forget all of us in the middle of the TWC/CBS war. The only way I can get CBS and several other channels is OTA for the time being. Just being able to hook up an antenna and add 2-1 and 9-1 back is a big benefit.
> 
> What i would love to see is for TiVo to do something like what Moxi did a few years ago... add support for USB OTA tuners. Those who need them could simply plug them in and those who don't won't.


Dish does that with the Hopper (previous models had the OTA tuner built-in while other models allowed the consumer to slip in an OTA 2 tuner module) and they are VERY popular among power users. The module for the older boxes and the USB OTA tuner for the Hopper are OPTIONS that provide the choice for each household. But, I'm sure that would have added to the cost of the Roamio, and TiVo's view is there just is no really big money to be made with the OTA only crowd.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

tenthplanet said:


> OTA doesn't work for thousands of people. This OTA entry unit is designed to blow Channel Master out the water as much as anything in a very niche market. Tivo is as much doing OTA users of Tivo's a favor with this unit. 4 tuners and it records and it doesn't need a computer for 200.00 isn't bad. The growth is in the higher end units.
> Tivo could have easily just left the OTA market leaving people to flail and wail and fixing older units for years to come.


Channel Master is returning to Echostar to desing its new, upcoming DVR. The First Channel Master DVR from Echostar was based on really old tech with the most glaring omission being no name based recording, but people LOVED those rudimentary, cave man tech units because of NO MONTHLY FEE. The current Channle Master DVR is a new joke, with an option to subscribe to enhanced program guide and--it just aint that good anyway.

However, if Echostar designs the new Channel Master using its ViP tech (comparable with Dish ViP DVR's, a generation behind the Hopper) then, even if only a 2 tuner, it will EASILY be the preferred for cord cutters, so long as there is NO MONTHLY FEE or at least a much lower monthly fee than TiVo. The ViP's do just about everything a Roamio does with many of the same features, except we don't know if any OTT will be part of the new Channel Master as it was in a very limited way with the current Channel Master, but everyone prefers a Roku, anyway.

While I agree with many of the gripes regarding the Roamio model, especially the either or OTA/Cable, I think the best, killer "feature" for the Roamio would be to offer the OTA only $9.99 subscription rate to lure more cord cutters. Considering the growing number of cheap alternatives TiVo imposed for the Roamio compared to the Plus and Pro (breakout cords for video outputs, no component outs, no Gigabit net support, no built-in Stream, no transfers to iOS mobile devices, 2 fewer tuners and with an either/or not cable and OTA at the same time, and there are more corner cut with this base model), it seems like TiVo could afford that OTA only subscription rate for the Roamio, but I'm sure that TiVo likes the ka-ching of the $14.99 a lot better, but my argument is that I believe they could get MORE subscribers for the Roamio by getting the subscription rate UNDER $10, even by just one penny, for OTA only and the 4 tuner count makes it an extremely appealing value to cord cutters who would be getting an excellent DVR. "Hmm, 4 tuners and only $9.99 per month . . ." Even the cheapskates may bite at that.

TiVo, bring back the OTA only subscription, please.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

jgolden said:


> As a TimeWarner customer I found out how valuable having the OTA capability is when TimeWarner cut off CBS. I don't know how long this will go on, but I am glad I can still record some programs if I choose over the air and more over cable.


As a TWC customer in a place that tends to get hurricanes, I'm augmenting our analog cable fed S2 DTs with S3s so I can also get digital OTA, and since the chances of TWC going out while the station is still on the air, regardless of weather, are much greater than the station going off the air and TWC still somehow being able to retransmit its signal...

A few months back a single cable cut in another county killed all TWC service (cable, internet, their version of telephone) in our county for about 12 hours.


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## Doh (May 18, 2001)

atmuscarella said:


> I must be a little slow today how are you having to choose between better streaming and OTA?


Maybe I missed something but that was my shorthand way of saying I don't think you can record OTA and then stream that show over wifi to an iOS device.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Doh said:


> Maybe I missed something but that was my shorthand way of saying I don't think you can record OTA and then stream that show over wifi to an iOS device.


You can if you buy a Stream also.


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## rehr0001 (Sep 17, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> You can if you buy a Stream also.


And you technically don't have to buy it - since you get it for free using the grouper code.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

rehr0001 said:


> And you technically don't have to buy it - since you get it for free using the grouper code.


I have read that code is now dead which is why I didn't mention it.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

tenthplanet said:


> OTA doesn't work for thousands of people. This OTA entry unit is designed to blow Channel Master out the water as much as anything in a very niche market. Tivo is as much doing OTA users of Tivo's a favor with this unit. 4 tuners and it records and it doesn't need a computer for 200.00 isn't bad. The growth is in the higher end units.
> Tivo could have easily just left the OTA market leaving people to flail and wail and fixing older units for years to come.


Sorry but even the cable industry is admitting that its the OTA market that is growing and the CATV market is loosing subscribers at a large rate. Every one of the big 3 lost major numbers the last several quarters.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

randywalters said:


> No, that actually creates even more problems.
> 
> That would be twice the cost to buy two Tivos.
> 
> ...


Buy 2 Roamios and a Mini then. Problem solved. No one said you are getting off dirt cheap.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> Sorry but even the cable industry is admitting that its the OTA market that is growing and the CATV market is loosing subscribers at a large rate. Every one of the big 3 lost major numbers the last several quarters.


What is this large rate of customers being lost? I see very small numbers being lost compared to total subscribers. And most of those losses you hear about are probably being picked up by satellite or FiOS or even Google.

OTA has its own problems. CAn you get signal? IF so, can your antenna pick up all the major channels from one location? IF not then you have to put a rooftop antenna up.

And then the economics of broadcast tv are in question. Many say their future is on shakey ground.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Series3Sub said:


> Channel Master is returning to Echostar to desing its new, upcoming DVR. The First Channel Master DVR from Echostar was based on really old tech with the most glaring omission being no name based recording, but people LOVED those rudimentary, cave man tech units because of NO MONTHLY FEE. The current Channle Master DVR is a new joke, with an option to subscribe to enhanced program guide and--it just aint that good anyway.
> 
> However, if Echostar designs the new Channel Master using its ViP tech (comparable with Dish ViP DVR's, a generation behind the Hopper) then, even if only a 2 tuner, it will EASILY be the preferred for cord cutters, so long as there is NO MONTHLY FEE or at least a much lower monthly fee than TiVo. The ViP's do just about everything a Roamio does with many of the same features, except we don't know if any OTT will be part of the new Channel Master as it was in a very limited way with the current Channel Master, but everyone prefers a Roku, anyway.
> 
> ...


Complaining about TiVos fees is just simple complaining it cost too much. Anyone with 1/2 a brain can do a cost comparison of a TiVo with lifetime to what ever alternative is being considered. If a person feels the TiVo DVR doesn't provide a better value than what ever else is being considered the answer is simple don't buy it.

But the reality is there are no real alternatives to TiVo in the stand alone OTA DVR market. Sure most of us here can put together a HTPC and use it for an OTA DVR but that is not what most people want and it will cost most people just as much as a new TiVo with lifetime.

I hope Channel Master/Dish does build a good OTA DVR as I think competition is good (and the only reason TiVo offered the $9.99/mo service deal for Premiere OTA users before) but as of today the the only real competition the Roamio has in the OTA market is used Premiere and Series 3 TiVos. Anyone looking for a cheap OTA DVR should have a good selection of lower cost units as people upgrade, I am guessing the prices of Series 3 units with lifetime and upgraded hard drives will drop below $300 and Premiere units with lifetime will likely drop below $400.

I do have hopes that TiVo will (in the near future) offer us deals where we can get the Roamio with lifetime for closer to $500 than the current $600.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> Sorry but even the cable industry is admitting that its the OTA market that is growing and the CATV market is loosing subscribers at a large rate. Every one of the big 3 lost major numbers the last several quarters.


Many cable companies are losing subs however the overall Pay TV market (cable, satellite, & IP TV (AT&T & Verizon)) is stable and some even claim it is growing.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

jcthorne said:


> Sorry but even the cable industry is admitting that its the OTA market that is growing and the CATV market is loosing subscribers at a large rate. Every one of the big 3 lost major numbers the last several quarters.


JC, I think your exagerating just a bit... Major numbers? The subscription market continues to grow quarter over quarter.

Cable currently has 41.2 million subscribers


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

For the true cheapskates, a _used_ Series 3 w/ lifetime blows alternative like Channel Master out of the water for $250-$300 (probably less now given the Roamio's release)


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## KrazyKiko (Mar 21, 2006)

JohnnyO said:


> My frustration is that even with the OTA-capable box, it is EITHER cable OR OTA, not both at the same time.
> 
> I'm losing a key feature from my older TiVos, but I did decide to order one anyway. I would have gladly paid for the Plus or Pro if it had the ability to do OTA and Cable. I guess I'm in a tiny minority.


Well, I'm in your minority too - Love to get the new features of the Roamio, but since I use both OTA and "basic-basic" cable (which does feature HD, tho, through Comcrap), I don't like being pigeon holed into one or the other. This is a disappointing design...


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

KrazyKiko said:


> Well, I'm in your minority too - Love to get the new features of the Roamio, but since I use both OTA and "basic-basic" cable (which does feature HD, tho, through Comcrap), I don't like being pigeon holed into one or the other. This is a disappointing design...


But you wouldn't want to pay for both... It would have required a duplication of the tuners in your base TiVo to handle that.

What most people do not know is that the 2 Tuner TiVo's actually has the chipset to handle 4 Tuners - two deducated to cable and two dedicated to OTA.

So in order to make a 4 tuner TiVo that works with OTA - the dicision is either or. (or add a second chipset and hardware to support it. $$$)


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bradleys said:


> JC, I think your exagerating just a bit... Major numbers? The subscription market continues to grow quarter over quarter.
> 
> Cable currently has 41.2 million subscribers


According to the National Cable & Telecommunications Association (NCTA) industry data at this web site:

http://www.ncta.com/industry-data

Overall Video Cable Customer counts (which includes analog and digital) have significantly declined. It peaked at 65.4M in 2006 and declined to 56.4M in 2012.

*Digital* Video Customer counts have been growing, e.g., from 40.4M in 2008 to 46.8M in 2012

No question about cable operator revenue from Residential Video, however. It has never declined, and reached $56.9B in 2011.

I'm surprised. I also thought (wished) they were hurting more.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

bradleys said:


> JC, I think your exagerating just a bit... Major numbers? The subscription market continues to grow quarter over quarter.
> 
> Cable currently has 41.2 million subscribers


ATT, Verizon, TW and Comcast all reported net loss of video subscriptions the last 2 quarters. The only 'major' I saw with video subs up was WOW. Not sure I saw reports from RCN. Yes there are LOTS of video subscribers but the trend is away, not toward and that was my point.


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## ppartekim (Jan 18, 2007)

dlfl said:


> No question about cable operator revenue from Residential Video, however. It has never declined, and reached $56.9B in 2011.


Revenue typically will always either increase or remain stable as they keep raising everyone subscription prices to compensate for the those few cord cutter decreases.

Revenue will only go down when there is a mass exodus of subscribers, which hopefully won't be too long now..


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## ppartekim (Jan 18, 2007)

I just find it funny after growing up in the NE in the 70s and only have THREE Channels plus PBS for OTA and being jealous of my CA cousins who had dozens of channels on their cable.. Now grownup and living in CA, and going thru that whole cable subscription (100s of channels) myself only to find I am now quite happy going back to old OTA with only 20+ "english" channels in glorious HD for free (well, except for the price of the rooftop Antennas).


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

ppartekim said:


> I just find it funny after growing up in the NE in the 70s and only have THREE Channels plus PBS for OTA and being jealous of my CA cousins who had dozens of channels on their cable.. Now grownup and living in CA, and going thru that whole cable subscription (100s of channels) myself only to find I am now quite happy going back to old OTA with only 20+ "english" channels in glorious HD for free (well, except for the price of the rooftop Antennas).


Yeah, I'm quite satisfied with the 4 major networks and PBS. I get a lot of other channels that don't really contribute to what I watch, just old reruns. I've deleted many from my received channel lineup, specifically any of the Spanish, religious, or shopping type channel. I still have the other minor ones in there, because you never know when you're going to need to watch a Sanford and Son or Hogan's Heroes episode...


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I wish!


I meant (to answer justen_m) that it's dead as far as TiVo is concerned. None of the new models has analog, and I feel safe in predicting that no future models will have it, either. The two-tuner Premieres will prove to be the last TiVos with analog support.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> ATT, Verizon, TW and Comcast all reported net loss of video subscriptions the last 2 quarters. The only 'major' I saw with video subs up was WOW. Not sure I saw reports from RCN. Yes there are LOTS of video subscribers but the trend is away, not toward and that was my point.


Actually you said there is a large rate of subscribers leaving. And there just isn't. And those subscribers that are lost are going to satellite and Iptv providers according to the chart which are essentially in the same business providing similar services.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Nope, Dish and DirectTV are both down for the last 2 quarters as well.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

I believe I've posted this source before, but the NAB contends that OTA-only households are on the rise.

http://www.nab.org/documents/newsroom/pressRelease.asp?id=3168

Of course, they are an advocacy group for broadcasters, so perhaps factor any potential bias into their findings.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> Nope, Dish and DirectTV are both down for the last 2 quarters as well.


Lol. The point is the paytv market as a whole is staying steady and even slowly growing. There is no large rate of subscribers leaving as you stated.

The market is fairly saturated at this point too. It can't grow like it did the past 10-20 years. And to get new customers you have to take them away from existing providers.

The small losses that individual providers experience say more about market saturation than anything.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Dan203 said:


> I'm sure TiVo knows how many of their customers are actually using OTA, including those using both OTA and cable, and made a decision based on that info. If they really thought there was a market for a higher end unit with OTA then we'd have one. It's not like they're doing it out of spite. Like everything in the corporate world it's about money and what they think they can sell. If this was really the booming market segment you seem to think then why aren't there any other companies selling OTA DVRs?
> 
> The reality is that most cord cutters do it to save money, so it makes sense to make the OTA TiVo as inexpensive as possible. Know your audience.


Agreed.

I was serious about my earlier question though. Of cable fails, how difficult is it to reconfigure the TiVo for OTA only, assuming you have an antenna? I'm thinking about getting a backup antenna.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> What is this large rate of customers being lost? I see very small numbers being lost compared to total subscribers. And most of those losses you hear about are probably being picked up by satellite or FiOS or even Google.
> 
> OTA has its own problems. CAn you get signal? IF so, can your antenna pick up all the major channels from one location? IF not then you have to put a rooftop antenna up.
> 
> And then the economics of broadcast tv are in question. Many say their future is on shakey ground.


The last number I saw, within the past week, implied that many of the subscribers lost by the cable and satellite companies were picked up by ATT and FiOS.



> ..The top nine cable operators lost about 550,000 net subscribers in the 2013 second quarter while the nation's two satellite services (DIRECTV and Dish) lost 162,000. However, the telco TV operators, Verizon and AT&T, added 373,000 subs, compared to last year when they added 275,000...


http://www.tvpredictions.com/leitchtman081913.htm


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## SC0TLANDF0REVER (Dec 9, 2001)

Beryl said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I was serious about my earlier question though. Of cable fails, how difficult is it to reconfigure the TiVo for OTA only, assuming you have an antenna? I'm thinking about getting a backup antenna.


You only have to go through guided setup again. With OTA only, it's a much faster process too.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Beryl said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I was serious about my earlier question though. Of cable fails, how difficult is it to reconfigure the TiVo for OTA only, assuming you have an antenna? I'm thinking about getting a backup antenna.


You have to repeat guided setup. Takes about 20 minutes.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Lol. The point is the paytv market as a whole is staying steady and even slowly growing. There is no large rate of subscribers leaving as you stated.
> 
> The market is fairly saturated at this point too. It can't grow like it did the past 10-20 years. And to get new customers you have to take them away from existing providers.
> 
> The small losses that individual providers experience say more about market saturation than anything.


You sound a lot like apple fans a year or two ago.

No, the trends show the pay tv market is shrinking and loosing subscribers. Over 100k this quarter. The OTA only numbers are rising.

Its still overwhelmingly biased toward pay tv customers but the trend is clear. Or are all the trade papers just wrong too?

Whatever. Believe what you want. Lets get back to Tivo discussions.


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## alexofindy (Apr 16, 2010)

There are many viewers who get much or most of their stations via cable, but who have a few that are only available with OTA. 

And this situation is likely to grow, with what seem likely to be increasing corporate fights between networks and cable companies that use the customers as pawns. The most visible of these situations now is between Time Warner Cable and CBS; as a result, customers of Time Warner in a number of major markets including New York City, Los Angeles, and Dallas can only get CBS via OTA.

We may well have a future is which a viewer wishing to get multiple major channels needs both cable and OTA, concurrently.

Tivo's new boxes may well prove to be technologically obsolete in the not too distant future. Caveat Emptor, and if you are planning to buy a Roamio, it would be prudent to google "Time Warner" and "CBS" to learn about this problem.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> You sound a lot like apple fans a year or two ago.
> 
> No, the trends show the pay tv market is shrinking and loosing subscribers. Over 100k this quarter. The OTA only numbers are rising.
> 
> ...


Is that chart wrong? It shows total pay tv customers at the same levels as 2 years ago if not slightly higher. Where is this large rate of subscriber loss you talk about?

It isnt insightful and doesn't provide an accurate picture when you extrapolate small subscribers losses from individual providers into a gloom and doom trend for the paytv industry.

Plus anyone "cutting the cord" wouldn't need both analog and cable tuners working at the same time. The market has to be extremely small. Tivo's overall install base is already pretty small to begin with.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

bradleys said:


> But you wouldn't want to pay for both... It would have required a duplication of the tuners in your base TiVo to handle that.
> 
> What most people do not know is that the 2 Tuner TiVo's actually has the chipset to handle 4 Tuners - two dedicated to cable and two dedicated to OTA.
> 
> So in order to make a 4 tuner TiVo that works with OTA - the dicision is either or. (or add a second chipset and hardware to support it. $$$)


While I totally agree with your analysis, I can't imagine the actual cost of the components would have been more than $15. Even if they didn't want to spend that money on the low end box, they certainly could have added it in the higher end ones. Or, like someone else said, make it a plug-in OPTION. That would have been the best idea yet.... all three boxes could have had a simple USB plugin dongle that supports adding OTA to the existing cable tuners.

Oh well.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

alexofindy said:


> There are many viewers who get much or most of their stations via cable, but who have a few that are only available with OTA.
> 
> And this situation is likely to grow, with what seem likely to be increasing corporate fights between networks and cable companies that use the customers as pawns. The most visible of these situations now is between Time Warner Cable and CBS; as a result, customers of Time Warner in a number of major markets including New York City, Los Angeles, and Dallas can only get CBS via OTA.
> 
> ...


It is a stretch to use a temporary contract battle as a reason for Tivo to provide simultaneous OTA and cable tuners in one box.

Besides you can keep your old Tivo around for these rare times or just watch tv live on that channel until the dispute settles. You can always buy 2 new Tivos too.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

hefe said:


> Yeah, I'm quite satisfied with the 4 major networks and PBS. I get a lot of other channels that don't really contribute to what I watch,


My "network" TV consumption might be about 10%. The rest is just a handful of quality cable TV channels like NatGeo, History, Science, and AMC (and a few others). 90% of the cable channels are CRAP, but that remaining 10% blows away network TV.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

crxssi said:


> My "network" TV consumption might be about 10%. The rest is just a handful of quality cable TV channels like NatGeo, History, Science, and AMC (and a few others). 90% of the cable channels are CRAP, but that remaining 10% blows away network TV.


So agree. I mainly watch ID, AMC, CNN, USA, TNT, Lifetime, and the occasional Syfy & OWN. The networks have very little to offer anymore. That said, I still rather have a TiVo that supports OTA so I'll save a few $$ and get the basic Roamio.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Beryl said:


> So agree. I mainly watch ID, AMC, CNN, USA, TNT, Lifetime, and the occasional Syfy & OWN. The networks have very little to offer anymore. That said, I still rather have a TiVo that supports OTA so I'll save a few $$ and get the basic Roamio.


I almost did the same thing, but the lack of built in MoCa and small hard drive threw me off.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

alexofindy said:


> There are many viewers who get much or most of their stations via cable, but who have a few that are only available with OTA.
> 
> And this situation is likely to grow, with what seem likely to be increasing corporate fights between networks and cable companies that use the customers as pawns. The most visible of these situations now is between Time Warner Cable and CBS; as a result, customers of Time Warner in a number of major markets including New York City, Los Angeles, and Dallas can only get CBS via OTA.
> 
> ...


Thank you Alex. Thank you for showing all of us that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Thank you.


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## Antitrust (Aug 22, 2013)

I'm one of those in the L..A. area that can't see cbs thru cable... A product that has ota and cable capability is very attractive..What the marketing "geniuses" at tivo fail to realize is that there is a huge market that is furious with the cable companies, furious that their cable bill keeps going up and up, and in some areas furious that they are being blocked from a major network. For those of us an extra $50 or $100 for a product with both ota and cable capability, with 10/100/1000 Ethernet, would be worth it if it gave us the ability to cut the cable, to be wooed back by cable for lower "introductory" offers, to get cable and ota so we won't get major networks blocked .... . But the last thing we want is to pay $499 for lifetime for a product that pales in comparison to the product that is geared for cable only, the same cable that we are furious with.... The marketers that keep thinking of the ota folks as the "cheepies" that won,t pay for anything but the cheapest components are missing the whole point... How ridiculous to think that those of us furious with cable wouldn't pay $50 or $100 more for a solid product, when we stand to save $100 a month or more and could be wooed back for cable services at half of what we are paying now (if we even want to come back). ... Tivo you just don't get it!!!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

crxssi said:


> My "network" TV consumption might be about 10%. The rest is just a handful of quality cable TV channels like NatGeo, History, Science, and AMC (and a few others). 90% of the cable channels are CRAP, but that remaining 10% blows away network TV.


For you, sure. I don't watch as much as many do, but I enjoy what I think are quality network programs. When I used to actually have those cable channels, I barely watched them. Certainly wasn't worth the cost. Now I just rent or stream the good stuff later. I don't feel the need to watch everything in first run.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

alexofindy said:


> There are many viewers who get much or most of their stations via cable, but who have a few that are only available with OTA.


TiVo probably has statistics on exactly how many of their customers use cable, OTA, and dual-input lineups. We can only speculate, but they _know_.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

crxssi said:


> While I totally agree with your analysis, I can't imagine the actual cost of the components would have been more than $15. Even if they didn't want to spend that money on the low end box, they certainly could have added it in the higher end ones. Or, like someone else said, make it a plug-in OPTION. That would have been the best idea yet.... all three boxes could have had a simple USB plugin dongle that supports adding OTA to the existing cable tuners.
> 
> Oh well.


Is that something that could be developed independently / after the fact?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Antitrust said:


> I'm one of those in the L..A. area that can't see cbs thru cable... A product that has ota and cable capability is very attractive..What the marketing "geniuses" at tivo fail to realize is that there is a huge market that is furious with the cable companies, furious that their cable bill keeps going up and up, and in some areas furious that they are being blocked from a major network. For those of us an extra $50 or $100 for a product with both ota and cable capability, with 10/100/1000 Ethernet, would be worth it if it gave us the ability to cut the cable, to be wooed back by cable for lower "introductory" offers, to get cable and ota so we won't get major networks blocked .... . But the last thing we want is to pay $499 for lifetime for a product that pales in comparison to the product that is geared for cable only, the same cable that we are furious with.... The marketers that keep thinking of the ota folks as the "cheepies" that won,t pay for anything but the cheapest components are missing the whole point... How ridiculous to think that those of us furious with cable wouldn't pay $50 or $100 more for a solid product, when we stand to save $100 a month or more and could be wooed back for cable services at half of what we are paying now (if we even want to come back). ... Tivo you just don't get it!!!


How many times has one of the 4 major networks been blocked in the past 10 years and for how long and was it during summer or during the 1st-run tv show season?

Dynamic OTA/cable tuners: For those times when you are caught between a cable provider's and a major network's payment dispute. It would be a hilarious back of the box bullet point.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

I would have liked the Plus/Pro to support OTA, but they don't. I just bought a base model for OTA support and will keep a base Premiere as a backup.

It's pretty clear why TiVo went the way they did (reduce how cost). I suspect we will see a dual OTA/Cable model in the Series 6 if a 6 tuner compatable chip becomes available


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Bye.

I suspect the base Roamio will be more than enough for most OTA only users and it's available now. No need to wait for somebody else's vapor ware.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

bradleys said:


> Is that something that could be developed independently / after the fact?


After the fact: Maybe
Independently: Not realistically


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

bradleys said:


> Is that something that could be developed independently / after the fact?


Not really. The hardware could be, but TiVo would have to modify their software to use it. And we know how many years it can take TiVo to change something, even something badly in need of change...


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

ppartekim said:


> In the Bay Area here, OTA has like 60 channels available, granted many are PBS and non-english (and some dup networks) but that still leaves 20+. All 5 (if included CW) networks, PBS and several Independent (e.g., ION, KOFY, KRON, KICU) and now several retro sub-channels (AntennaTV, Cozi, etc). There are times I do have all four of my tuners (2-S3s) recording at once or within the same 60 minute period. Absolutely, no reason to pay for cable as I have more than enough free TV to watch (or stream...if needed)..


That's nuts. We have the 4 big ones, a bunch of foreign, a handful of Jesus stations and like 3 PBS stations. So, basically, 4 channels I would watch.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> The last number I saw, within the past week, implied that many of the subscribers lost by the cable and satellite companies were picked up by ATT and FiOS.


NEVER EVER EVER rely on any "news" from tvpredictions


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

hefe said:


> Maybe there's a gas leak...


Check the description beneath my user name...


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## bd177 (Oct 22, 2010)

hefe said:


> That is true. I wonder if that's a large number of people. Seems like Joe Consumer would pretty much just do one or the other.


I get Canadian stations on OTA where I live, so having both is a plus.


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