# 2-Tuner Support Not on the Roadmap



## sbiller

Cnet's Joshua Goldman confirmed earlier today that TiVo has no plans for the Mini to work with the 2-tuner base Premiere model. They haven't disclosed whether or not this is a technical issue - most are speculating its not. My guess is the lack of MoCA coupled with the lack of tuners and the likely number of Premieres that are already connected wirelessly led TiVO to this decision.

Let the bi*ching begin!










Note: MRS from a 2-tuner Premiere is supported. The base Premiere can not serve as a Mini Host DVR.


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## magnus

But it has a Ethernet connection... So why would Moca make any difference at all?


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## compnurd

magnus said:


> But it has a Ethernet connection... So why would Moca make any difference at all?


Easier connection. Just like Direct TV, Dish and Cable companies do with there whole home, it is all on one moca coax system.

None of them use ethernet


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## moyekj

Well if they want to intentionally lock out potential customers that have no interest in live tv that's their business I guess...
Still don't see why it would not just be a warning that without 4 tuner host you get no live tv.


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## magnus

compnurd said:


> Easier connection. Just like Direct TV, Dish and Cable companies do with there whole home, it is all on one moca coax system.
> 
> None of them use ethernet


What does that have to do with it technically? Why would it not work if all your boxes are using Ethernet? The short answer, it doesn't matter. They just want to force you into a more expensive Premiere.


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## supasta

I am wondering if they will extend any offers to subscribers that have two tuner models that are interested in the Mini. Has anyone called or investigated this at all with any information?


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## southerndoc

I emailed Tom Rogers and Reed Hastings about Netflix support from TiVo. I received a call from someone in TiVo's executive relations department stating they are working on it and hopefully will be ready by end of year. Judging by the hesitation in his voice to give a time frame, I don't think he can say anything timewise with certainty.


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## magnus

geekmedic said:


> I emailed Tom Rogers and Reed Hastings about Netflix support from TiVo. I received a call from someone in TiVo's executive relations department stating they are working on it and hopefully will be ready by end of year. Judging by the hesitation in his voice to give a time frame, I don't think he can say anything timewise with certainty.


Yep, I'll consider it close to being worth it when Netflix, Amazon, and 2 tuner support is there.


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## lessd

magnus said:


> Yep, I'll consider it close to being worth it when Netflix, Amazon, and 2 tuner support is there.


So would many TP owners* BUT *TiVo, for their own reasons, decided not to support what you would like (2 Tuners TP), so you and many others will not purchase the Mini, do you really think TiVo had not considered that when they designed the Mini, or do you think TiVo is now saying _ooops_.


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## magnus

lessd said:


> So would many TP owners BUT TiVo, for their own reasons, decided not to support what you would like (2 Tuners TP), so you and many others will not purchase the Mini, do you really think TiVo had not considered that when they designed the Mini, or do you think TiVo is now saying ooops.


I think they are simply trying to figure out a way to get us to upgrade for some reason. That's the only explanation. It doesn't make much sense though. The cost just does not justify it. I'd prefer to see it on Apple TV from my Stream.


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## compnurd

magnus said:


> I think they are simply trying to figure out a way to get us to upgrade for some reason. That's the only explanation. It doesn't make much sense though. The cost just does not justify it. I'd prefer to see it on Apple TV from my Stream.


Have fun with it


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## magnus

compnurd said:


> Have fun with it


Um, ok. Are you trying to be a jerk or something?


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## compnurd

magnus said:


> Um, ok. Are you trying to be a jerk or something?


I am done with people whining about the cost. Ok to you it is too expensive and it sucks and you will never buy one. So what does everyone posting over and over again about that help anyone wanting to buy one because it Does work for them and DOES have value to them


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## magnus

compnurd said:


> I am done with people whining about the cost. Ok to you it is too expensive and it sucks and you will never buy one. So what does everyone posting over and over again about that help anyone wanting to buy one because it Does work for them and DOES have value to them


Unless you work for Tivo... and even if you do.... then get over it. People have a right to their opinion... we still live in America, don't we?


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## compnurd

magnus said:


> Unless you work for Tivo... and even if you do.... then get over it. People have a right to their opinion... we still live in America, don't we?


No we dont


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## magnus

compnurd said:


> No we dont


Well, I won't debate politics with you since we're not supposed to here.


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## steve614

I think TiVo is shooting themselves in the foot if this is the case.

Add wording on the box and in the materials that Live TV is not available when using a 2 tuner Premiere as a host.

I guess they don't think the general public is smart enough to distinguish that subtle difference and want to avoid the potential support issues associated with that.


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## jfh3

steve614 said:


> I think TiVo is shooting themselves in the foot if this is the case.
> 
> Add wording on the box and in the materials that Live TV is not available when using a 2 tuner Premiere as a host.
> 
> I guess they don't think the general public is smart enough to distinguish that subtle difference and want to avoid the potential support issues associated with that.


No. TiVo is setting up the Mini to be part of a Whole Home system for a 4 (or more) tuner base DVR.

The base Premiere is designed to serve one TV, not the entire household.

Mini sales will take off once the next gen TiVo DVRs are released.

Not quite sure why people are so upset about the base model not being supported. Between not having a MoCA bridge and the inevitable support headaches of people that just won't understand tuner hijacking, it is quite logical that the original Premiere is not supported.

Come fall, no one will care. Anyone that wants a mini that doesn't already have an Elite/P4 will want a new host DVR anyway.


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## BigJimOutlaw

jfh3 said:


> Not quite sure why people are so upset about the base model not being supported.


They said it was on the roadmap for the last 10 months, and they could have clarified it at any point before now. So it's a misdirection that throws off planning and expectations.


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## jfh3

BigJimOutlaw said:


> They said was on the roadmap for the last 10 months, and they could have clarified it at any point before now. So it's a misdirection that throws off planning and expectations.


Fair point.


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## Dan203

I agree. The next gen TiVos will all support the Mini, including one that has OTA, so there will be a "whole home" solution for everyone. People may not be happy about it not working with their old 2 tuner units, especially those who don't care about live TV, but apparently that is the path TiVo has chosen and it is what it is. 

Personally I'll probably get a new 4-6 tuner unit when they hit just for the faster CPU. The sluggishness of the UI and apps is my biggest pet peeve with the Premiere units. If I can get one that's faster it'll be worth the upgrade cost on it's own.


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## CoxInPHX

Lack of support for a 2 tuner is unacceptable in my mind. I find it hard to believe it would be a support issue. I am sure selling TiVos at Walmart is a much bigger support issue, with lots of returns.

I purchased my extended family all 2 tuner Premieres and they don't record that much TV, and a Mini would be perfect for their secondary TV.

Let's start the petition drive now.


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## jfh3

CoxInPHX said:


> Lack of support for a 2 tuner is unacceptable in my mind. I find it hard to believe it would be a support issue.




I'm going to take a wild guess and say you have never provided technical support for any computer-based product or consumer electronics device.

It would not likely be a (large) support issue for most that visit TCF, but for the target market for a base Premiere, it would be a nightmare.

Why doesn't it work with my wireless? How do I do this MoCA thing? Why aren't most of my programs recording? How do I tell when the Mini is full? Why does my TiVo only record one thing at a time now?

It's FAR easier from a support standpoint to just say "minimum of 4 tuners" and minimize the complaints of users who can't/don't understand the concept of an assigned tuner than to provide the function to a group of users that will most likely be first in line to purchase the upgraded DVR as soon as it's available.


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## CoxInPHX

jfh3 said:


> I'm going to take a wild guess and say you have never provided technical support for any computer-based product or consumer electronics device.
> 
> It would not likely be a (large) support issue for most that visit TCF, but for the target market for a base Premiere, it would be a nightmare.
> 
> Why doesn't it work with my wireless? How do I do this MoCA thing? Why aren't most of my programs recording? How do I tell when the Mini is full? Why does my TiVo only record one thing at a time now?
> 
> It's FAR easier from a support standpoint to just say "minimum of 4 tuners" and minimize the complaints of users who can't/don't understand the concept of an assigned tuner than to provide the function to a group of users that will most likely be first in line to purchase the upgraded DVR as soon as it's available.


Roll eyes really?

Yes, I have provided all computer system related and application support for an entire department of 50 employees that had no clue!

If/Once dynamic tuner allocation is implemented a 2 tuner Premiere should not be a huge issue, yes, right now with the tuner dedication for the Mini I understand the limitation. But still the 2 tuner could be allowed with no provision to assign a tuner.


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## magnus

CoxInPHX said:


> Roll eyes really?
> 
> Yes, I have provided all computer system related and application support for an entire department of 50 employees that had no clue!
> 
> If/Once dynamic tuner allocation is implemented a 2 tuner Premiere should not be a huge issue, yes, right now with the tuner dedication for the Mini I understand the limitation. But still the 2 tuner could be allowed with no provision to assign a tuner.


And a requirement that all boxes in the whole system be on ethernet or Moca.

I mean, if it's such a problem for Wifi then Tivo should stop selling their adapters and no longer recommend them.


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## compnurd

magnus said:


> And a requirement that all boxes in the whole system be on ethernet or Moca.
> 
> I mean, if it's such a problem for Wifi then Tivo should stop selling their adapters and no longer recommend them.


I think you both may have hit it on the head there.... i would imagine there is a fair amount of 2 Tuners on Wifi which would have called all sorts of issues


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## NotNowChief

I would have expected that a 2-tuner model that was connected via ethernet or external MoCA adapter would be able to stream to a Mini, *as long as the host DVR was a 4-tuner. *

If you can stream from Premiere to Premiere via ethernet or MoCA (built in or external) I am surprised to hear that the Mini can't do this.

Unless I am understanding this wrong.


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## magnus

compnurd said:


> I think you both may have hit it on the head there.... i would imagine there is a fair amount of 2 Tuners on Wifi which would have called all sorts of issues


Just because you have a 4 tuner Premiere does not mean that you would not try to use a Wifi adapter though.

Why don't they just create a software update that disables the ability to use Wifi then?


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## compnurd

magnus said:


> Just because you have a 4 tuner Premiere does not mean that you would not try to use a Wifi adapter though.
> 
> Why don't they just create a software update that disables the ability to use Wifi then?


How would they know? There wireless N device is a bridge so all the Tivo see's is a ethernet connection


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## sbiller

NotNowChief said:


> I would have expected that a 2-tuner model that was connected via ethernet or external MoCA adapter would be able to stream to a Mini, *as long as the host DVR was a 4-tuner. *
> 
> If you can stream from Premiere to Premiere via ethernet or MoCA (built in or external) I am surprised to hear that the Mini can't do this.
> 
> Unless I am understanding this wrong.


Yes. Streaming (MRS) from 2-tuners is supported. The 2-tuner base Premiere can't be a Mini Host DVR.


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## moyekj

magnus said:


> Just because you have a 4 tuner Premiere does not mean that you would not try to use a Wifi adapter though.
> 
> Why don't they just create a software update that disables the ability to use Wifi then?


 You can use WiFi without having a WiFi adapter on the TiVo. There are lots of people using WiFi bridges where as far as the TiVo is concerned it has no idea there is any WiFi in the picture, so "disabling WiFi" is not possible regardless of the type of TiVo unit.
So I don't think the use of WiFi is driving the decision not to support 2 tuner hosts. Looks to me like TiVo has decided that live TV capability is an essential part of the Mini and only hosts capable of giving up at least 1 tuner will qualify. I don't agree with that decision, especially since you can assign 0 tuners to the Mini anyway.


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## NotNowChief

sbiller said:


> Yes. Streaming (MRS) from 2-tuners is supported. The 2-tuner base Premiere can't be a Mini Host DVR.


This is a game changer! I now have the incentive to upgrade either my HD or HDXL!


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## atmuscarella

First I will say I would have liked the Mini to have support the dual tuner Premieres.

That said I will restate what I have said before, I do not believe TiVo is interested in Mini sales per say. My belief is the Mini's primary function (from TiVo's point of view) is to:

Provide TiVo's cable company partners with what they want.
Provide a competitive whole home DVR system
Support the sale of 4 (or more) tuner TiVo DVRs
The bottom line is dealing with supporting dual tuner Premieres (not to mention Series 3 units) is not in TiVo's best interests pretty much any way you look at it once you get over the idea that TiVo's goal is to sell Minis - it is not, their goal is to sell NEW whole home systems and 4+ tuner DVRs.


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## slowbiscuit

There's a solution to the dubious lack of 2-tuner support - buy a Premiere 4 and a Mini, activate both, then return the 4 and get a refund on service but keep the Mini. Voila, you now have MRS and the 'hit record to stream live TV' workaround on the Mini from your 2-tuner boxes.

Yes, it's stupid Tivo - people will do this to get a Mini working because you won't support 2-tuners without live TV. And you'll have needless returns/refurbs on 4-tuner boxes because of it. The only question is whether the Mini will work at all if it can't find a 4-tuner box on the network.


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## NotNowChief

slowbiscuit said:


> There's a solution to the dubious lack of 2-tuner support - buy a Premiere 4 and a Mini, activate both, then return the 4 and get a refund on service but keep the Mini. Voila, you now have MRS and the 'hit record to stream live TV' workaround on the Mini from your 2-tuner boxes. The only question is whether the Mini will work at all if it can't find a 4-tuner box on the network.
> 
> Yes, it's stupid Tivo - people will do this to get a Mini working because you won't support 2-tuners without live TV. And you'll have needless returns/refurbs on 4-tuner boxes because of it.


I can understand why they don't market it as "streaming pre-recorded content only for 2-tuner users" because I can only imagine the phone calls to support this would result in.


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## aaronwt

I thought I read that the Mini needs to be tied to a 4 tuner Premiere. I though that if it was removed that it would no longer work properly. I'm sure someone will try soon. If my Mini shows up Friday I can try this weekend and see what happens.


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## sbiller

slowbiscuit said:


> There's a solution to the dubious lack of 2-tuner support - buy a Premiere 4 and a Mini, activate both, then return the 4 and get a refund on service but keep the Mini. Voila, you now have MRS and the 'hit record to stream live TV' workaround on the Mini from your 2-tuner boxes.
> 
> Yes, it's stupid Tivo - people will do this to get a Mini working because you won't support 2-tuners without live TV. And you'll have needless returns/refurbs on 4-tuner boxes because of it. The only question is whether the Mini will work at all if it can't find a 4-tuner box on the network.


:down:

I'm pretty sure this won't work. I believe the Mini leverages the Host DVR for a lot more than you think. Once the 4-tuner is removed from the network, I think your functionality would be severely limited. Look at the truth table on the Mini support page.


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## slowbiscuit

When you have a company making decisions like this for a large part of their installed base, don't be surprised if they try to workaround the problem.


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## magnus

sbiller said:


> Yes. Streaming (MRS) from 2-tuners is supported. The 2-tuner base Premiere can't be a Mini Host DVR.


Nothing here, I responded to wrong post.


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## magnus

compnurd said:


> How would they know? There wireless N device is a bridge so all the Tivo see's is a ethernet connection


Yep, that was exactly the point. It's stupid for Tivo to not be allowing for 2 tuner models when 4 tuner models have the exact same potential for being used with wifi.


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## timon0x31

TiVo is really ticking me, and I'm sure many others, with these constant marketing screw ups.

First they come of with the Premere 4 that won't work over the air. They tell you it's because there is no tuner that will support more than two over the air streams. That's one big fat lie TiVo and they know it. Getting 4 atsc/qam tuners runner is not a problem. TiVo is just bowing to the cable companies to screw the Free TV folks.

There is no reason that TiVo could not have released the Mini to work as a streaming only device with a two channel Premere. Either Marketing is forcing Engineering to not release it just to sell more 4 tuner cable versions or TiVo's Engineers are some of the dumbest around. Again I'm betting it's totally a Markettng decision and I hope that they get totally screwed because of it.

Sometimes I wish that Apply would by TiVo, with some of their 137 billion, for the patents and fire all of the execs and release a good system. 

IMHO, if you don't agree that fine. Flames not needed just state your own opinion.


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## magnus

timon0x31 said:


> TiVo is really ticking me, and I'm sure many others, with these constant marketing screw ups.
> 
> First they come of with the Premere 4 that won't work over the air. They tell you it's because there is no tuner that will support more than two over the air streams. That's one big fat lie TiVo and they know it. Getting 4 atsc/qam tuners runner is not a problem. TiVo is just bowing to the cable companies to screw the Free TV folks.
> 
> There is no reason that TiVo could not have released the Mini to work as a streaming only device with a two channel Premere. Either Marketing is forcing Engineering to not release it just to sell more 4 tuner cable versions or TiVo's Engineers are some of the dumbest around. Again I'm betting it's totally a Markettng decision and I hope that they get totally screwed because of it.
> 
> Sometimes I wish that Apply would by TiVo, with some of their 137 billion, for the patents and fire all of the execs and release a good system.
> 
> IMHO, if you don't agree that fine. Flames not needed just state your own opinion.


I agree 100%. I used to really love Tivo and was probably considered a fanboy on here but they are saying and doing things that just don't make sense. I hope these features will be coming to the Mini but I'm skipping this product unless they do.


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## Loach

timon0x31 said:


> TiVo is really ticking me, and I'm sure many others, with these constant marketing screw ups.
> 
> First they come of with the Premere 4 that won't work over the air. They tell you it's because there is no tuner that will support more than two over the air streams. That's one big fat lie TiVo and they know it. Getting 4 atsc/qam tuners runner is not a problem. TiVo is just bowing to the cable companies to screw the Free TV folks.
> 
> There is no reason that TiVo could not have released the Mini to work as a streaming only device with a two channel Premere. Either Marketing is forcing Engineering to not release it just to sell more 4 tuner cable versions or TiVo's Engineers are some of the dumbest around. Again I'm betting it's totally a Markettng decision and I hope that they get totally screwed because of it.
> 
> Sometimes I wish that Apply would by TiVo, with some of their 137 billion, for the patents and fire all of the execs and release a good system.
> 
> IMHO, if you don't agree that fine. Flames not needed just state your own opinion.


My own opinion is that certain minimum typing and spelling skills should be required for posting on forums.


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## magnus

Loach said:


> My own opinion is that certain minimum typing and spelling skills should be required for posting on forums.


Seriously?! You can't just comment on the content? Instead you feel the need to put the person down. Wow.


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## NotNowChief

Please, anybody but Apple. I don't care if it's the Keebler elves, just not Apple. I would rather eat a bowl of rusty screws drenched in battery acid than put my hands on one of those cult iCrap devices.


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## atmuscarella

magnus said:


> I agree 100%. I used to really love Tivo and was probably considered a fanboy on here but they are saying and doing things that just don't make sense. I hope these features will be coming to the Mini but I'm skipping this product unless they do.


It may not make sense to you because you want something TiVo is currently unwilling to give you. But I am guessing it makes perfect sense to TiVo and without knowing all the technical issues or what their marketing data has shown them we have no way of knowing how reasonable or unreasonable the decision was.


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## timon0x31

Loach said:


> My own opinion is that certain minimum typing and spelling skills should be required for posting on forums.


Your statement was not really necessary but comon when someone has nothing to say but still wants to comment. Try being more civil.


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## Davisadm

timon0x31 said:


> Sometimes I wish that Apple would buy TiVo, with some of their 137 billion, for the patents and fire all of the execs and release a good system.


There was a rumor about Apple buying TiVo a few years ago. IMO, that would have been a win-win situation. It would have given TiVo a great direction, and Apple could have integrated TiVo in their Apple TV box and in the upcoming Apple Television.


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## Loach

magnus said:


> Seriously?! You can't just comment on the content? Instead you feel the need to put the person down. Wow.


I'd be more inclined to comment on the content if the writer had made an effort to compose a post that didn't make my eyes bleed.


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## atmuscarella

timon0x31 said:


> TiVo is really ticking me, and I'm sure many others, with these constant marketing screw ups.
> 
> First they come of with the Premere 4 that won't work over the air. They tell you it's because there is no tuner that will support more than two over the air streams. That's one big fat lie TiVo and they know it. Getting 4 atsc/qam tuners runner is not a problem. TiVo is just bowing to the cable companies to screw the Free TV folks.
> 
> There is no reason that TiVo could not have released the Mini to work as a streaming only device with a two channel Premere. Either Marketing is forcing Engineering to not release it just to sell more 4 tuner cable versions or TiVo's Engineers are some of the dumbest around. Again I'm betting it's totally a Markettng decision and I hope that they get totally screwed because of it.
> 
> Sometimes I wish that Apply would by TiVo, with some of their 137 billion, for the patents and fire all of the execs and release a good system.
> 
> IMHO, if you don't agree that fine. Flames not needed just state your own opinion.


OK, my opinion is you don't appear to know jack about technical issues and even less about how capitalism works.

First I know of no 4 tuner OTA devices so what TiVo would have or will have to do to develop one is unknown. What is certain is it would have added to the cost of the 4 tuner Premieres and likely delayed their release.

Second you (or I) have no idea what technical issues there maybe to have a Mini use a dual tuner Premiere as the host DVR.

Third any company that wants to stay in business had better use marketing data to target what products will be profitable to develop. Not doing so assures they will be bankrupt and out of business.


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## mr_smits

jfh3 said:


> I'm going to take a wild guess and say you have never provided technical support for any computer-based product or consumer electronics device.
> 
> It would not likely be a (large) support issue for most that visit TCF, but for the target market for a base Premiere, it would be a nightmare.
> 
> Why doesn't it work with my wireless? How do I do this MoCA thing? Why aren't most of my programs recording? How do I tell when the Mini is full? Why does my TiVo only record one thing at a time now?
> 
> It's FAR easier from a support standpoint to just say "minimum of 4 tuners" and minimize the complaints of users who can't/don't understand the concept of an assigned tuner than to provide the function to a group of users that will most likely be first in line to purchase the upgraded DVR as soon as it's available.


I feel like Tivo has a list of items that is making their ecosystem confusing and very un-Tivo like. The 2-tuner limit for the Mini is one. The wifi works in certain circumstances (for guide data and MRV) but not in other is another. The moca (new to many people) option. The ethernet option. The Stream to only Apple products is another. The crappy implementation of the Stream is another. The lack of Netflix on the Mini is another. The legacy MRV feature. The difference between Streaming from Netflix, streaming from the other Tivo in the other room, streaming from a Mini, and streaming from the Stream to Apple products.

I'm hopeful this fall will resolve most of the limitations and begin to simplify Tivo again. TV shouldn't be this hard or confusing. That is what Tivo has always been about, yet here we are.


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## magnus

atmuscarella said:


> OK, my opinion is you don't appear to know jack about technical issues and even less about how capitalism works.
> 
> First I know of no 4 tuner OTA devices so what TiVo would have or will have to do to develop one is unknown. What is certain is it would have added to the cost of the 4 tuner Premieres and likely delayed their release.
> 
> Second you (or I) have no idea what technical issues there maybe to have a Mini use a dual tuner Premiere as the host DVR.
> 
> Third any company that wants to stay in business had better use marketing data to target what products will be profitable to develop. Not doing so assures they will be bankrupt and out of business.


I think Tivo should comment on those technical issues that prevent a 2 tuner Premiere from being a host DVR for the Mini. I've asked Margaret several times but no answer yet. If there were a real technical reason why it wouldn't work then let's have it already. Otherwise, we're just being fanboys and stating that Tivo had their reasons.


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## rainwater

atmuscarella said:


> The bottom line is dealing with supporting dual tuner Premieres (not to mention Series 3 units) is not in TiVo's best interests pretty much any way you look at it once you get over the idea that TiVo's goal is to sell Minis - it is not, their goal is to sell NEW whole home systems and 4+ tuner DVRs.


I tend to think the next generation of TiVo's will not be less than 4 tuners anyways. So, at that point the Mini will support any TiVo currently being sold.


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## atmuscarella

mr_smits said:


> I feel like Tivo has a list of items that is making their ecosystem confusing and very un-Tivo like. The 2-tuner limit for the Mini is one. The wifi works in certain circumstances (for guide data and MRV) but not in other is another. The moca (new to many people) option. The ethernet option. The Stream to only Apple products is another. The crappy implementation of the Stream is another. The lack of Netflix on the Mini is another. The legacy MRV feature. The difference between Streaming from Netflix, streaming from the other Tivo in the other room, streaming from a Mini, and streaming from the Stream to Apple products.
> 
> I'm hopeful this fall will resolve most of the limitations and begin to simplify Tivo again. TV shouldn't be this hard or confusing. That is what Tivo has always been about, yet here we are.


I agree it certainly feels like we are in a transition phase. I wonder if the current Premieres aren't actually legacy equipment already. TiVo has made a clear break from Series 1, 2, & 3 equipment but I don't really think we will have made the full transition until the next round of DVRs are released.


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## atmuscarella

magnus said:


> I think Tivo should comment on those technical issues that prevent a 2 tuner Premiere from being a host DVR for the Mini. I've asked Margaret several times but no answer yet. If there were a real technical reason why it wouldn't work then let's have it already. Otherwise, we're just being fanboys and stating that Tivo had their reasons.


Given that I am OTA only, have an Android tablet, have 2 Series 3 TiVos along with a Premiere it would be a stretch to be a fanboy of TiVos whole home DVR system as I can not use any of it (Premiere 4, Stream, or Mini).

I agree it would be nice to know more even if they sent it through back channels to the mods here. But the reality is regardless if it is technical or based on marketing data really does not matter.


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## button1066

magnus said:


> I think Tivo should comment on those technical issues that prevent a 2 tuner Premiere from being a host DVR for the Mini. I've asked Margaret several times but no answer yet. If there were a real technical reason why it wouldn't work then let's have it already. Otherwise, we're just being fanboys and stating that Tivo had their reasons.


I used to use an Xbox 360 to extend TV from a Windows Media Center PC. It worked fine with 2 OTA tuners. The Xbox also only cost $200 and could play games, access Netflix and all kinds of other things. $250 for the TiVo Mini seems laughable in comparison.

So laughable in fact that I don't doubt there will plenty of returned Minis on sale on tivo.com in a couple of month's time. Maybe someone will find a way to hack them and make them more usable.


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## innocentfreak

rainwater said:


> I tend to think the next generation of TiVo's will not be less than 4 tuners anyways. So, at that point the Mini will support any TiVo currently being sold.


I have said it multiple times, but this is my belief also.

I think TiVo has begun to fully embrace the whole home experience especially as all the MSOs move to that. The only reason I can see TiVo not doing it is because they were unable to find a cheap way to integrate 4 OTA tuners.

I think we will only see 4 and 6 tuners in the next models which I would guess by Christmas. We still haven't seen any movement on the FCC waiver request to drop analog which at minimum would push them to the summer.

While I could see room for a cheap 2 tuner model, it would probably depend on what the cable partners are asking for. If none of them want 2 tuner models, they could probably bring their cost down low enough that even the 4 tuner is a cheap entry point.


----------



## innocentfreak

button1066 said:


> I used to use an Xbox 360 to extend TV from a Windows Media Center PC. It worked fine with 2 OTA tuners. The Xbox also only cost $200 and could play games, access Netflix and all kinds of other things. $250 for the TiVo Mini seems laughable in comparison.
> 
> So laughable in fact that I don't doubt there will plenty of returned Minis on sale on tivo.com in a couple of month's time. Maybe someone will find a way to hack them and make them more usable.


Don't forget the yearly Xbox live sub for $39.99 on sale which puts you at $270 by the second year. They also sell them for a loss and recoup on their licensing cost which is something TiVo can't do.


----------



## Dan203

magnus said:


> Yep, that was exactly the point. It's stupid for Tivo to not be allowing for 2 tuner models when 4 tuner models have the exact same potential for being used with wifi.


The incentive to use Wifi is less for the 4 tuner units because they have built in MoCa. TiVo has even priced the MoCa bridge lower ($50) then their wireless N adapter ($90) creating more incentive to use MoCa over Wifi.

I really think TiVo is attempting to phase out Wifi in favor of MoCa. There may actually come a day when they decide that Wifi is no longer a supported configuation. Of course people cand still use bridges, but if it doesn't work TiVo can just say "sorry, wifi is not supported".

Honestly I think the Mini is targeted more towards the next generation TiVo then the current ones. I'm betting the next gen TiVos have a minimum of 3 tuners, built in MoCa and will all support the Mini.


----------



## button1066

innocentfreak said:


> Don't forget the yearly Xbox live sub for $39.99 on sale which puts you at $270 by the second year. They also sell them for a loss and recoup on their licensing cost which is something TiVo can't do.


I didn't bother with Xbox Live and it still worked ok. In fact I set up my Xbox up to reboot direct to Windows Media Center. I think the Xbox was actually less than $200 and might have been $170 (it was one of the ones without a hard drive).

I'm not aware of any other network streaming device than a TiVo Mini that relies on a service fee to move my own data across my own home network and yet there are plenty of streaming devices about that cost less than $250. Much less than $250 let's face it. Even the Stream costs half of what a Mini costs and yet has more functionality! And it works with two tuner Premieres - maybe it has advanced technology that couldn't be incorporated into the Mini.

As much as I like my Premiere's I just can't get into the Mini. It's borderline bizarre how TiVo are trying to market it. Hopefully the idea is a plan B type relaunch in the future.


----------



## innocentfreak

button1066 said:


> I didn't bother with Xbox Live and it still worked ok. In fact I set up my Xbox up to reboot direct to Windows Media Center. I think the Xbox was actually less than $200 and might have been $170 (it was one of the ones without a hard drive).


You mentioned the Xbox could do other things like Netflix which requires Xbox Live. Even though you pay Netflix Xbox charges you a subscription free to access content you can watch for free on other devices. Media Center is the only thing that doesn't require Xbox Live Gold, but it does require Silver because a banned Xbox won't work as a Media Center extender.


----------



## Dan203

button1066 said:


> I'm not aware of any other network streaming device than a TiVo Mini that relies on a service fee to move my own data across my own home network and yet there are plenty of streaming devices about that cost less than $250. Much less than $250 let's face it.


There are really only two retail devices in existence that compete directly with the Mini in that they can stream encrypted content from a host DVR to another TV in the house. The Ceton Echo and the XBox 360. The Ceton Echo is $180 and the lowest tier XBox is $200. So TiVo's price of $250 isn't really that far out of the ball park. And the fact that they offer a $100 + $6/mo option creates a lower cost entry point for new customers then the other two options.

I'm not saying I wouldn't want the price to be lower, but it's not as outlandish as people are making it out to be.

Edit: And as for the Stream... I think the only reason they didn't charge a service fee for it is because they have plans to build that functionality into the next generation TiVos and they didn't want to have a discrepancy in how the two devices were handled.


----------



## button1066

Dan203 said:


> There are really only two retail devices in existence that compete directly with the Mini in that they can stream encrypted content from a host DVR to another TV in the house. The Ceton Echo and the XBox 360. The Ceton Echo is $180 and the lowest tier XBox is $200. So TiVo's price of $250 isn't really that far out of the ball park. And the fact that they offer a $100 + $6/mo option creates a lower cost entry point for new customers then the other two options.
> 
> I'm not saying I wouldn't want the price to be lower, but it's not as outlandish as people are making it out to be.
> 
> Edit: And as for the Stream... I think the only reason they didn't charge a service fee for it is because they have plans to build that functionality into the next generation TiVos and they didn't want to have a discrepancy in how the two devices were handled.


The Mini is almost 40% more expensive than the Ceton Echo and it's not like the Ceton Echo is driving sales of other 'flagship' products for them. If anything this just shows how 'out there' Tivo is with the Mini.

Another thread on here was saying that there is an estimate of only 50,000 four tuner Tivos and I'm not even sure if that is total sold or total in operation. They've cut the potential market for the Mini to the bone and then priced it with a "let's see what sticks to the wall" approach.

Are Tivo playing an early April fool's joke on us?


----------



## compnurd

button1066 said:


> The Mini is almost 40% more expensive than the Ceton Echo and it's not like the Ceton Echo is driving sales of other 'flagship' products for them. If anything this just shows how 'out there' Tivo is with the Mini.
> 
> Another thread on here was saying that there is an estimate of only 50,000 four tuner Tivos and I'm not even sure if that is total sold or total in operation. They've cut the potential market for the Mini to the bone and then priced it with a "let's see what sticks to the wall" approach.
> 
> Are Tivo playing an early April fool's joke on us?


i think the pricing is dead on


----------



## button1066

innocentfreak said:


> You mentioned the Xbox could do other things like Netflix which requires Xbox Live. Even though you pay Netflix Xbox charges you a subscription free to access content you can watch for free on other devices. Media Center is the only thing that doesn't require Xbox Live Gold, but it does require Silver because a banned Xbox won't work as a Media Center extender.


That's true. No free lunches. The Xbox does play more advanced games than skulls and bones or whatever it is called though.


----------



## magnus

compnurd said:


> i think the pricing is dead on


I think all remains to be seen.


----------



## button1066

compnurd said:


> i think the pricing is dead on


Why, because TiVo is a high end product and needs high end prices to keep the riff raff out?

Serious question...

(I bet you things change with either the pricing or functionality in the coming months).


----------



## innocentfreak

button1066 said:


> The Mini is almost 40% more expensive than the Ceton Echo and it's not like the Ceton Echo is driving sales of other 'flagship' products for them. If anything this just shows how 'out there' Tivo is with the Mini.
> 
> Another thread on here was saying that there is an estimate of only 50,000 four tuner Tivos and I'm not even sure if that is total sold or total in operation. They've cut the potential market for the Mini to the bone and then priced it with a "let's see what sticks to the wall" approach.
> 
> Are Tivo playing an early April fool's joke on us?


The Echo is all about driving Ceton's tuners and at one point the Ceton Q. Listen to this weeks Engadget HD podcast. Ben who is a Media Center user discusses the price difference. Take the Ceton Echo add a functional remote, $30, and add MoCa, $50, and you have the Mini at $250.

As people have also said first this was developed for the cable companies originally. Second some of us believe this is in anticipation for the new TiVo units due at the end of the year which we are guessing will come with a minimal of 4 tuners allowing the Mini to work with all their new boxes. This means in less than a year potentially the Mini will work with every new TiVo sold. With the current Premiere platform going on 3 years I would say a good portion are ready to upgrade.


----------



## button1066

innocentfreak said:


> The Echo is all about driving Ceton's tuners and at one point the Ceton Q. Listen to this weeks Engadget HD podcast. Ben who is a Media Center user discusses the price difference. Take the Ceton Echo add a functional remote, $30, and add MoCa, $50, and you have the Mini at $250.
> 
> As people have also said first this was developed for the cable companies originally. Second some of us believe this is in anticipation for the new TiVo units due at the end of the year which we are guessing will come with a minimal of 4 tuners allowing the Mini to work with all their new boxes. This means in less than a year potentially the Mini will work with every new TiVo sold. With the current Premiere platform going on 3 years I would say a good portion are ready to upgrade.


This has made things a lot clearer. I didn't even realize Ceton sold tuners by the way (I'd never heard of them).

I'm starting to get how things fit together. I have premieres that are only a little over a year old so definitely won't be upgrading but it looks like the future of TiVo is starting to take shape.


----------



## innocentfreak

button1066 said:


> This has made things a lot clearer. I didn't even realize Ceton sold tuners by the way (I'd never heard of them).
> 
> I'm starting to get how things fit together. I have premieres that are only a little over a year old so definitely won't be upgrading but it looks like the future of TiVo is starting to take shape.


Yeah Ceton was one of the first companies to come out with multi-CableCARD tuners for Media Center. Originally ATI only made a signal tuner. Ceton's first card was the InfiniTV4, a 4 tuner PCI card for Windows 7. They developed the Mini because the 360 is the only extender still made. The previous extenders were $200-$300 and discontinued before multicard tuners were available. Of course when the Echo came out a lot of Media Center people complained it should be $99.


----------



## Dan203

button1066 said:


> The Mini is almost 40% more expensive than the Ceton Echo and it's not like the Ceton Echo is driving sales of other 'flagship' products for them. If anything this just shows how 'out there' Tivo is with the Mini.
> 
> Another thread on here was saying that there is an estimate of only 50,000 four tuner Tivos and I'm not even sure if that is total sold or total in operation. They've cut the potential market for the Mini to the bone and then priced it with a "let's see what sticks to the wall" approach.
> 
> Are Tivo playing an early April fool's joke on us?


The Kindle Fire HD is only $200 yet an iPad mini is $320. They're essentially the same device so why is the iPad more? Because it's a premium brand people are willing to pay more for.


----------



## AbMagFab

Or go with HD Home Run/Home Run Primes, and use something like MythTV and/or XBMC.


----------



## magnus

Dan203 said:


> The Kindle Fire HD is only $200 yet an iPad mini is $320. They're essentially the same device so why is the iPad more? Because it's a premium brand people are willing to pay more for.


I'd get a Nexus 7 instead. Not real impressed with the Fire and the iPad mini is overpriced. For the same money, you get a Android that will get regular updates and works well with the play store.

However, in my opinion, the iPad has a better OS and a better store. But the price difference compels you to look at the other options.


----------



## Dan203

My point was that it's not that unusual for two devices with the same basic functionality to have vastly different prices.


----------



## magnus

Dan203 said:


> My point was that it's not that unusual for two devices with the same basic functionality to have vastly different prices.


Yep and if Tivo had competition in the OTA space then they might not dismiss it so easily.


----------



## Dan203

That's part of the reason they can get away with this pricing. They have very little competition. The HTPC/Ceton combo is alright, but too much of a hassle to setup and maintain for the average Joe. Their only real competition is from the MSOs themselves and they only rent equipment, for relatively high fees, with no option to buy or pay for "lifetime" service up front. When compared to their actual competition the pricing isn't that far out of line.


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> That's part of the reason they can get away with this pricing. They have very little competition. The HTPC/Ceton combo is alright, but too much of a hassle to setup and maintain for the average Joe. Their only real competition is from the MSOs themselves and they only rent equipment, for relatively high fees, with no option to buy or pay for "lifetime" service up front. When compared to their actual competition the pricing isn't that far out of line.


Yup. After having had MCE for a while, I have realized that it is for enthusiasts only. Even as a computer enthusiast, I just want something that works for my TV. The Mini is fundamentally a sub-$100 box, but given the market, TiVo is able to charge a huge premium for it, and part of that is their software. Part of it also may also be to protect the MSOs' ability to charge $10/mo for it.


----------



## sbiller

Bigg said:


> Yup. After having had MCE for a while, I have realized that it is for enthusiasts only. Even as a computer enthusiast, I just want something that works for my TV. The Mini is fundamentally a sub-$100 box, but given the market, TiVo is able to charge a huge premium for it, and part of that is their software. Part of it also may also be to protect the MSOs' ability to charge $10/mo for it.


The one MSO deploying the Mini (Suddenlink) is charging $6 to $7 for it depending on package.

http://www.cedmagazine.com/news/2013/02/suddenlink-pushes-tivo-mini-into-100-communities


----------



## Dan203

Can you use a retail Mini with a suddenlink Premiere Q DVR?


----------



## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> Can you use a retail Mini with a suddenlink Premiere Q DVR?


It appears that way from some info on the TiVo web site. Sorry do not have time to find the links again.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> Can you use a retail Mini with a suddenlink Premiere Q DVR?


Good question. I haven't seen Suddenlink answer that question. The only data point I have for this use-case is RCN. They support retail Streams for Premiere-Q customers only. I expect Suddenlink will support as well. It saves them CPE and CapEx with very little support if the customers home already has MoCA.


----------



## Austin Bike

While I always wanted mini with a 2-tuner, I can understand why they don't want to support it.

With a 2 tuner I find that live TV often interrupts recording because there are already 2 things being recorded and I have to choose which to kill to watch something live. People have grown accustomed to having 2 tuners and a mini would potentially interrupt that. And if you have a mini running but it can't get a live signal because the other 2 tuners are in use, you end up with the opinion that "this things sucks, I can never do what I want to". 

They are already on the hook for higher pricing, no android support, needing 2 different devices for tablet and tv use and a bunch of other things. If I was running their product management I would think that it is easier to say "no 2 tuner support" than take the wrath of angry customers and bad reviews. They probably see the 4 tuner growth going up heavily and the 2 tuner growth dropping, so the demand signal probably says that supporting 4 tuner is going to make it easier. 

Ultimately it comes down to pissing off the 2 tuner people one way or another. You either offer support and get all of the complaints and bad reviews or you don't offer and you get some blowback from people who wanted the device. Obviously, if this is the case they probably look at a.) the install base/growth of 2 tuner vs. 4 tuner and b.) the propensity to want to buy the mini (2 tuner vs. 4 tuner).

Obviously the bulk of the "2 tuner and want mini" people are going to be in this forum. So while it may seem like a huge issue, in reality, relative to their total market opportunity, this could be a much smaller number that just gets magnified here.

As a marketing person, I know these decisions and tradeoffs happen all the times. It always comes down to:

1. What is technically possible?
2. What has the least number of technical/support issues?
3. Where can I maximize revenue?

You look at 1 first because if it isn't possible the discussion is done. 2 is second because support is a cost with no (real) benefit. So anything that pushes support costs up introduces uncertainty and risk, that is bad. Finally you look at the revenue input.

Tivo has lots of data available and makes the decision that works best for their business. That may not be the decision that the users want (I have a 2 tuner premiere and would love a mini). This is just like the "no andriod on stream" thread. Tivo is ovbiously looking at the market and doing what works best based on the circumstances, they aren't idiots, they just have access to a lot more information than we do about the real opportunity. When people say they are making a big mistake, they are saying that without all of the information.


----------



## CoxInPHX

Assumption that it is not a technical limitation.

How about an option to call into TiVo support, pass a technical IQ test and then they allow you to add a Mini to an account with only regular 2-Tuner Premieres.

You fail the IQ test, no you cannot add the Mini.


----------



## DaveDFW

Austin Bike said:


> Tivo has lots of data available and makes the decision that works best for their business. ... they aren't idiots.


I agreed with your post up until the last paragraph. I have seen no evidence that Tivo makes particularly wise business decisions. In fact, they have been on the precipice of collapse for a decade as a result of their previous business decisions.

Successful ligitagion outcomes are currently keeping them afloat.


----------



## freerule

sbiller said:


> Yes. Streaming (MRS) from 2-tuners is supported. The 2-tuner base Premiere can't be a Mini Host DVR.


So, a TiVo Mini can be used to recive OTA streaming from a TiVo Premiere already on the account, but in order to do so the account holder would have to spend a minimum of $900, or $349 upfront plus $21 monthly.

$250 (P4) 
$400 (Lifetime w/MSD) 
$99 (Mini) 
$150 (Mini Lifetime) 
_____
$900 (total; or $349 upfront + $21 monthly w/1yr. commitment)


----------



## aaronwt

CoxInPHX said:


> Assumption that it is not a technical limitation.
> 
> How about an option to call into TiVo support, pass a technical IQ test and then they allow you to add a Mini to an account with only regular 2-Tuner Premieres.
> 
> You fail the IQ test, no you cannot add the Mini.


But would TiVo support people even pass that test? No doubt that some would not based on some of my past experience.


----------



## slowbiscuit

freerule said:


> So, a TiVo Mini can be used to recive OTA streaming from a TiVo Premiere already on the account, but in order to do so the account holder would have to spend a minimum of $900, or $349 upfront plus $21 monthly.
> 
> $250 (P4)
> $400 (Lifetime w/MSD)
> $99 (Mini)
> $150 (Mini Lifetime)
> _____
> $900 (total; or $349 upfront + $21 monthly w/1yr. commitment)


Yep, pretty much what a 3-tuner Moxi + Mate bundle cost before discontinued I think, or was it $799?


----------



## magnus

freerule said:


> So, a TiVo Mini can be used to recive OTA streaming from a TiVo Premiere already on the account, but in order to do so the account holder would have to spend a minimum of $900, or $349 upfront plus $21 monthly.
> 
> $250 (P4)
> $400 (Lifetime w/MSD)
> $99 (Mini)
> $150 (Mini Lifetime)
> _____
> $900 (total; or $349 upfront + $21 monthly w/1yr. commitment)


A P4 can't be used for OTA though. So, it wouldn't make sense to buy one, if you're looking for OTA support.


----------



## DaveDFW

magnus said:


> A P4 can't be used for OTA though. So, it wouldn't make sense to buy one, if you're looking for OTA support.


But the P4 is needed to support a Mini infrastructure. To stream OTA material to a Mini, you'll need both an OTA-capable DVR (two-tuner Premiere), and a host DVR to enable functionality of the Mini (four-tuner Premiere).


----------



## magnus

DaveDFW said:


> But the P4 is needed to support a Mini infrastructure. To stream OTA material to a Mini, you'll need both an OTA-capable DVR (two-tuner Premiere), and a host DVR to enable functionality of the Mini (four-tuner Premiere).


Sorry but that is just asinine.


----------



## Dan203

Even with that setup you wouldn't be able to watch live OTA. You can only watch live TV from the 4 tuner host, which you pointed out doesn't do OTA. 

I think OTA users are going to have to wait for the next gen hardware.


----------



## dhoward

Tivo has said for a long time that when dynamic tuning was complete the Mini would support 2 tuners. Now that the Mini is out they have now said no way ever for 2 tuner. They have had a lot of time to get the dynamic tuner feature working and like most of there hardware releases they come out only 1/2 ready. I would not be surprised if by the time this feature is released they will then say it only will work with the next gen Tivo and 4 tune Premiers will not be able to use it. On the surface why can't this feature be implemented the same way existing Tivos put a message on the screen asking if it is ok to use the tuner you are watching to a record a show. If you do not answer the question it takes the tuner. If you say no it does not record. Why is that so hard for the Mini. If you do not answer the prompt it releases the tuner. How much work to implement that can it be?


----------



## DaveDFW

magnus said:


> Sorry but that is just asinine.


I agree--I was just explaining why the previous poster included the cost of a P4 in the total cost of streaming material recorded from an OTA source to an Mini.


----------



## DaveDFW

Dan203 said:


> Even with that setup you wouldn't be able to watch live OTA.


This sounds correct, a Mini user would only be able to stream already-recorded OTA material from a two-tuner Premiere, not stream a live OTA channel.


----------



## magnus

DaveDFW said:


> I agree--I was just explaining why the previous poster included the cost of a P4 in the total cost of streaming material recorded from an OTA source to an Mini.


Oh ok. I wondered why they were doing that. Makes sense now.


----------



## moyekj

Dan203 said:


> Even with that setup you wouldn't be able to watch live OTA. You can only watch live TV from the 4 tuner host, which you pointed out doesn't do OTA.
> 
> I think OTA users are going to have to wait for the next gen hardware.


 Actually OTA brings up another point. Since the 2 tuner Premieres use different tuners than the 4 tuner Premieres, perhaps the mechanism for the Mini to steal a tuner would have to be completely different from what is currently implemented. So even with dynamic tuning capability it may have been a lot more work to get things working with 2 tuner units, so TiVo decided not to do it. Makes you wonder if Mini will ever work with OTA capable TiVos as hosts. Still doesn't explain why not just at least allow Mini to use 2 tuner hosts without possibility of stealing a tuner though...


----------



## Dan203

We've actually discussed that possibility before. And it seems like it might be a viable technological hurdle. However if they plan on releasing a new unit which supports OTA then they're going to have to tackle that problem eventually anyway. Unless they've found a supplier for the new unit which can consolidate OTA and cable into one physical tuner or they release an OTA only box. Neither of which is very likely.


----------



## jrtroo

dhoward said:


> They have had a lot of time to get the dynamic tuner feature working and like most of there hardware releases they come out only 1/2 ready.


While I don't have a 4 tuner model either, this would work for me 100% of the time. I would have the mini so I would not have to watch live TV anywhere. Mind boggling how many want to use this for live TV.

My disappointment is a lack of Netflix, which we use often, so I'll keep my own setup until the new hardware is out.


----------



## magnus

On Facebook, Tivo seems to suggest that it's not a technology issue but it was decided that 2 tuner support would not be allowed because it would diminish the DVR experience on the host box.


----------



## Dan203

Make sense. Especially if they have a 3+ tuner unit that supports OTA waiting in the wings. Right now the only non-cost related reason not to upgrade to a 4 tuner box is if you still want OTA. (or analog) Sounds like whatever box they have coming down the pipe will at least support OTA. (analog users are still SOL)


----------



## rainwater

magnus said:


> On Facebook, Tivo seems to suggest that it's not a technology issue but it was decided that 2 tuner support would not be allowed because it would diminish the DVR experience on the host box.


I think that is obvious. Of course, this forum is full of conspiracy theories claiming TiVo obviously hates 2 tuner users or they want people to buy the XL4. But the fact is, most of the decisions were made so that the experience from the Mini and the host box are what users expect.


----------



## magnus

rainwater said:


> I think that is obvious. Of course, this forum is full of conspiracy theories claiming TiVo obviously hates 2 tuner users or they want people to buy the XL4. But the fact is, most of the decisions were made so that the experience from the Mini and the host box are what users expect.


Only problem with that is... I would not plan to use any tuners. I just want to watch recorded shows and IPTV (Netflix and Amazon). So, I would not be changing the DVR experience on my 2 tuner box. I think Tivo should let me decide this.

Anyway, unless they have an OTA box with 4 or more tuners and a good deal on the box for those of us with 2 tuners then I guess I am not going to be getting this product. It's a shame because I was excited about the possibility but now I'm just not as happy with Tivo as I once was.

Ideally, they would just create or allow a Roku or Apple TV app that would allow us OTA users to stream our recorded programs.


----------



## Dan203

magnus said:


> Ideally, they would just create or allow a Roku or Apple TV app that would allow us OTA users to stream our recorded programs.


Neither of those devices support MPEG-2 encoding, so you'd also need a TiVo Stream which is an additional $130.


----------



## magnus

Dan203 said:


> Neither of those devices support MPEG-2 encoding, so you'd also need a TiVo Stream which is an additional $130.


Yep, I have one of those. I really like it too. I've used it a lot on my trip and caught up on a lot of TV.


----------



## tre74

Well, I guess I'm out of luck. I had picked up a Stream and thought I could download a show from my 2 tuner Premiere and mirror it to the TV via the Apple TV. Anybody who tried this saw a message that the feature was not supported in the TiVo app. I figured I'd wait and pick up a Mini when they were released. Now, it seems I am still out of luck. I'm OTA and am not interested in getting cable and buying a new TiVo just so I can by a Mini. I had hoped that I could just send recorded shows to the Mini and not worry about tuners, but I guess that is not an option. Oh well, still love my Stream.


----------



## Dan203

FYI: You can use AirPlay with a TiVo Stream if you jail break your iOS device. If you're the hacker type.


----------



## tre74

I did read that somewhere, but I'm sure I'd screw it up. Still, I like tinkering with stuff. Hmmm. Thanks for putting the thought in my head. I'll know who to blame when I brick the iPad, lol.


----------



## magnus

Dan203 said:


> FYI: You can use AirPlay with a TiVo Stream if you jail break your iOS device. If you're the hacker type.


That seems like around the building several times to get in the front door.


----------



## lew

Dan203 said:


> Even with that setup you wouldn't be able to watch live OTA. You can only watch live TV from the 4 tuner host, which you pointed out doesn't do OTA.
> 
> I think OTA users are going to have to wait for the next gen hardware.


Why couldn't you use the tuner in the TV set for live OTA?


----------



## tre74

Antenna is hooked to TV and TiVo in living room. I really don't want to get on roof and split signal and run another cable to the bedroom. I can live with live TV only in the living room. I have an Apple TV, blu-ray player and DVD/VCR combo in the bedroom for watching other stuff.


----------



## Dan203

tre74 said:


> I did read that somewhere, but I'm sure I'd screw it up. Still, I like tinkering with stuff. Hmmm. Thanks for putting the thought in my head. I'll know who to blame when I brick the iPad, lol.


Wasn't me! 



lew said:


> Why couldn't you use the tuner in the TV set for live OTA?


No pause or instant replay that way.


----------



## rainwater

magnus said:


> Only problem with that is... I would not plan to use any tuners. I just want to watch recorded shows and IPTV (Netflix and Amazon).


The Mini wasn't designed for you. Most people expect when they install a cable box that they can watch live tv. And since this box is designed for cable MSOs, it makes exact sense why they designed it the way they did.


----------



## magnus

rainwater said:


> The Mini wasn't designed for you. Most people expect when they install a cable box that they can watch live tv. And since this box is designed for cable MSOs, it makes exact sense why they designed it the way they did.


At one point it was designed to do most of what I wanted it to do and then they changed it.


----------



## Dan203

This was a business decision, not a technical one. They decided that it was easier to require a 4 tuner box then to explain why it couldn't do live TV on a 2 tuner box. Both options have downfalls. They chose the one that made the most sense for their business.


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## Bigg

sbiller said:


> The one MSO deploying the Mini (Suddenlink) is charging $6 to $7 for it depending on package.
> 
> http://www.cedmagazine.com/news/2013/02/suddenlink-pushes-tivo-mini-into-100-communities


That's nice of Suddenlink, but other MSOs will want to go for the full $10.


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## HarperVision

jrtroo said:


> ...Mind boggling how many want to use this for live TV...


Have you heard of a these little events known as LIVE SPORTS? Not quite the same when recorded


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## aaronwt

What's that? I still want to skip over commercials. No need to watch any sport event live, unless you are physically at the game.


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## freerule

Thanks Dan, even though the answer is negative. The main reason behind the earlier post was to get a definitive answer to the implied question in that post.

It wouldn't be worth $900 for me, but I wanted to know if the proposed configuration would even work. Too bad!

The current versions of TiVo are essentially upscale cable box replacements. OTA capabilities apparently don't generate enough revenue to be viable for TiVo Inc. as a continuing business model.

Sadly, it appears I've bought my last TiVo product.



freerule said:


> So, a TiVo Mini can be used to recive OTA streaming from a TiVo Premiere already on the account, but in order to do so the account holder would have to spend a minimum of $900, or $349 upfront plus $21 monthly.
> 
> $250 (P4)
> $400 (Lifetime w/MSD)
> $99 (Mini)
> $150 (Mini Lifetime)
> _____
> $900 (total; or $349 upfront + $21 monthly w/1yr. commitment)





Dan203 said:


> Even with that setup you wouldn't be able to watch live OTA. You can only watch live TV from the 4 tuner host, which you pointed out doesn't do OTA.
> 
> I think OTA users are going to have to wait for the next gen hardware.


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## moyekj

HarperVision said:


> Have you heard of a these little events known as LIVE SPORTS? Not quite the same when recorded


 I never got a good explanation to why that is. As long as you have no inkling about the result what does it matter? It's not like you watching live or not has any influence on the result unless you are overtly superstitious. If that is the reason then the only way to really watch it without time delay is at game itself since the broadcast adds delay, DVR adds more delay, etc. so if watching on TV you are NEVER watching it live.


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## innocentfreak

HarperVision said:


> Have you heard of a these little events known as LIVE SPORTS? Not quite the same when recorded


Heard of them but don't get them. I also don't understand why some people feel they can't watch them delayed.


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## freerule

magnus said:


> On Facebook, Tivo seems to suggest that it's not a technology issue but it was decided that 2 tuner support would not be allowed because it would diminish the DVR experience on the host box.





Dan203 said:


> Make sense. Especially if they have a 3+ tuner unit that supports OTA waiting in the wings. Right now the only non-cost related reason not to upgrade to a 4 tuner box is if you still want OTA. (or analog) Sounds like whatever box they have coming down the pipe will at least support OTA. (analog users are still SOL)


Hope that scenario isn't just another pipedream, but I'm not holding my breath expecting it!


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## HarperVision

innocentfreak said:


> Heard of them but don't get them...


That explains it.


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## jrtroo

HarperVision said:


> Have you heard of a these little events known as LIVE SPORTS? Not quite the same when recorded


I find them even better when recorded. I can get a sandwich, skip commercials and useless commentary, and miss intermission times.

I understand some like to twitter during the games, but that is a relatively small group.

Sorry, I'll cease being off-topic now.

My personal guess, from viewing other pre-lauch behaviors from Tivo, is that we are indeed close to a new box that will allow me to use the mini and dump my THD and 2-tuner premiere. I would just need more than 2TB of storage, netflix access on the mini, and a good way to pull pytivo shares. Though, having to push using my tablet would not be a deal breaker..


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## h2oskierc

NotNowChief said:


> Please, anybody but Apple. I don't care if it's the Keebler elves, just not Apple. I would rather eat a bowl of rusty screws drenched in battery acid than put my hands on one of those cult iCrap devices.


^THIS x100

I will not buy anything Apple.


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## Davisadm

h2oskierc said:


> ^THIS x100
> 
> I will not buy anything Apple.


There was a rumor about Apple buying TiVo a few years ago. IMO, that would have been a win-win situation. It would have given TiVo a great direction, and Apple could have integrated TiVo in their Apple TV box and in the upcoming Apple Television.


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## h2oskierc

If Apple bought Tivo I would have to pray that an Android DVR came out. 

I am also extremely disappointed by the Mini's limitation. I have a two tuner (I don't use OTA, but I like knowing I could) DVR simply because that is all I need. I wouldn't be willing to spend the money to upgrade, and the Mini is not reason enough. Right now I feed the signal from my box to my entire house. It works great, expecially with the Android app. Only down side, is we all watch the same thing. Not a problem I am willing to shell out $750+ to fix. $250 I could justify if it worked with my Premiere. That is about the max for me.

As for live sports. I love hockey, but I hate to watch live (or at least start it live). I usually start about halfway through the game, skip commercial and intermissions, and then catch up to live in the last few minutes when there tends to be less commercials. My solution with the mini would be to watch live sports on the TV that is connected to my Premiere. That is my preferred TV anyway.

You know what, I do watch NASCAR live, but that is so I can listen to in-car audio in real time. Always watch that on my good TV too, so a mini with no live TV still would be ideal for me.


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## innocentfreak

HarperVision said:


> That explains it.


I just find them incredibly dull and boring. I last about 5 minutes before I find myself doing other things. My roommates used to be able to predict when I would get up and leave the room when they watched football. I played just about every sport, but if I wasn't playing I didn't care what was going on.


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## jmpage2

h2oskierc said:


> ^THIS x100
> 
> I will not buy anything Apple.


It's amazing to me how anytime the subject of "Apple" comes up, people feel the need to comment about how they hate Apple devices, they are iCrap, they won't buy them if you put a gun to their head, etc.... yet, you don't see all of the many people in the forum who do like Apple products crapping all over Google and Android.

You people need to get a grip. Be happy that you have an alternative to "iCrap".


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## magnus

jmpage2 said:


> It's amazing to me how anytime the subject of "Apple" comes up, people feel the need to comment about how they hate Apple devices, they are iCrap, they won't buy them if you put a gun to their head, etc.... yet, you don't see all of the many people in the forum who do like Apple products crapping all over Google and Android.
> 
> You people need to get a grip. Be happy that you have an alternative to "iCrap".


I like them both for different reasons.


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## morac

Davisadm said:


> There was a rumor about Apple buying TiVo a few years ago. IMO, that would have been a win-win situation. It would have given TiVo a great direction, and Apple could have integrated TiVo in their Apple TV box and in the upcoming Apple Television.


Steve Jobs thought TiVo, Roku and Google TV were all destined to fail, so Apple would never have bought TiVo while he was running the company. Don't know what Apple would do now, but I don't see them buying TiVo or even working with them.

Steve was right about Google TV.


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## Dan203

Apple appeals to a completely different segment then TiVo. There may be some overlap, but by and large they are very different groups and I don't think they would fit well together.

Plus Apple is HUGE. If they wanted to make a DVR they would just make one. They wouldn't buy TiVo.


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## Arcady

morac said:


> Steve Jobs thought TiVo, Roku and Google TV were all destined to fail


Steve Jobs also said that Apple would never make an iPod that played video or a mobile phone. They started making both a few years after each statement. He also said a 7 inch tablet was a bad idea. The iPad mini had to be in development while he was still around.


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## Bigg

Sports are an event. They lose their value after about 5 minutes, if that. Basketball is the one time that I have live TV on, and don't touch the remotes for 2 hours.


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## bradleys

Davisadm said:


> There was a rumor about Apple buying TiVo a few years ago. IMO, that would have been a win-win situation. It would have given TiVo a great direction, and Apple could have integrated TiVo in their Apple TV box and in the upcoming Apple Television.


You think Apple would have any interest in maintaining a retail DVR? If they purchased TiVo it would have been for the patent portfolio, not to compete with the cable co's for this slim market.

Same thing when Google purchased Motorola. Patent portfolio only, closed or sold everything else...

TiVo direction would have been to abandon the market...


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## alexofindy

I have a less than 3 year old Premiere XL with Product Lifetime Service, would have loved to use a mini to playback recorded shows on a bedroom TV; the lack of Live remote TV would not be important. But Tivo has decided to limit the mini so I can't use it with my 2 tuner Premiere. I'd have to buy a new box and abandon my investment in both my hardware and the expensive PLS I purchased.

Not nice, Tivo, not nice. As best I can tell there is no technical reason for this limitation. A mini should work fine with a two tuner Premiere, just without the option of Live TV, if only Tivo would allow it.

If Tivo treats it's existing customer base with disdain, they may find that existing customers abandon Tivo, and stop recommending Tivo to friends and family.


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## Dan203

You know you could probably sell the TiVo you have for $400-$500. The one thing about PLS is that it retains nearly 100% of it's value, even over long periods of time.


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## magnus

alexofindy said:


> Not nice, Tivo, not nice. As best I can tell there is no technical reason for this limitation. A mini should work fine with a two tuner Premiere, just without the option of Live TV, if only Tivo would allow it.


Nope, there is no technical reason for it. Tivo says that it's all about the user experience on the 2 tuner Premiere. They say that they did not want to diminish the experience of the person that is in front of the 2 tuner when a person using the Mini wants to watch live TV.

Only thing you can do is hope for a 4+ tuner Premiere with OTA in the future and hope the price of your 2 tuner Premiere with lifetime does not diminish in value when that time comes.

Or in a very remote chance... Hope that Tivo creates a Roku or Apple TV app that works in conjunction with the Tivo Stream. But that means you'll still need to purchase some equipment from Tivo and Roku/Apple.


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## najenagold

Dan203 said:


> You know you could probably sell the TiVo you have for $400-$500. The one thing about PLS is that it retains nearly 100% of it's value, even over long periods of time.


Sold mine for $525 when I got my Mini. Plus one less CableCard fee!


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## HarperVision

A little off topic, but how much can I get for a TiVo HD with lifetime?


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## innocentfreak

HarperVision said:


> A little off topic, but how much can I get for a TiVo HD with lifetime?


Check ebay completed listings. Probably $300-$400 depending on the drive


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## HarperVision

Thanks that is what I thought. I just wanted a sanity check from the pros here!


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## Austin Bike

DaveDFW said:


> I agreed with your post up until the last paragraph. I have seen no evidence that Tivo makes particularly wise business decisions. In fact, they have been on the precipice of collapse for a decade as a result of their previous business decisions.
> 
> Successful ligitagion outcomes are currently keeping them afloat.


You are not privy to all of the data, so you really can't judge their decisions. I have been on the other side for 20+ years and have never made a dumb decision. I have made a lot of unpopular decisions and made decisions that, in hindsight, when we had more data turned out to not be the best path. But in product development you are stuck making decisions based on the best available data at the time.

They have to make decisions based on what is best for the company, that is not always what is best for the customer.


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## DaveDFW

Austin Bike said:


> You are not privy to all of the data, so you really can't judge their decisions.


I don't need to know their internal data to know that they consistently lose money year after year. Yes, they're making super business decisions.


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## sbiller

DaveDFW said:


> I don't need to know their internal data to know that they consistently lose money year after year. Yes, they're making super business decisions.


Actually, that's not really true. Here is a snapshot of their Earnings Per Share going back to 2007. They are slightly positive on EPS over that period thanks mostly to the $1 Billion in litigation settlements from Dish, AT&T, and Verizon. They continue to spend significant dollars on litigation which masks that their core advanced television business is in the midst of a significant turn-around. It will become evident in Calendar Year 2014 when they turn EPS positive again. These numbers assume zero new deals and zero settlements and/or trial proceeds from Motorola, Time Warner, or Cisco.


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## DaveDFW

sbiller said:


> Actually, that's not really true. Here is a snapshot of their Earnings Per Share going back to 2007. They are slightly positive on EPS over that period thanks mostly to the $1 Billion in litigation settlements from Dish, AT&T, and Verizon.


Isn't that the essence of one of my previous posts? "Successful ligitagion outcomes are currently keeping them afloat."

But for their litigation settlements, Tivo would be consistently losing money on their core business. I don't understand the constant deification of Tivo executives on TCF.


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## buscuitboy

magnus said:


> Only thing you can do is hope for a 4+ tuner Premiere with OTA in the future and hope the price of your 2 tuner Premiere with lifetime does not diminish in value when that time comes.


With the mini finally being released, I think at this point its safe to say that Tivo has more or less abandoned OTA use & will NOT have the OTA option on any future TiVO boxes. Instead, I'm thinking they will come out with a digital cable only, 6-tuner box that will also work with these minis. Its unfortunate, but chances are pretty good that it will be true.


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## TWinbrook46636

jmpage2 said:


> It's amazing to me how anytime the subject of "Apple" comes up, people feel the need to comment about how they hate Apple devices, they are iCrap, they won't buy them if you put a gun to their head, etc.... yet, you don't see all of the many people in the forum who do like Apple products crapping all over Google and Android.


There are always some people who cannot like what they have unless they put down what they don't. It's kind of fascinating in a way but also rather annoying. Android and iOS are just two different approaches to the same thing and choice is a good. It doesn't make sense to get so angry over a piece of electronics.


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## TWinbrook46636

buscuitboy said:


> With the mini finally being released, I think at this point its safe to say that Tivo has more or less abandoned OTA use & will NOT have the OTA option on any future TiVO boxes. Instead, I'm thinking they will come out with a digital cable only, 6-tuner box that will also work with these minis. Its unfortunate, but chances are pretty good that it will be true.


We know from their recent FCC filings that they do intend to have OTA on a future box though.


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## magnus

buscuitboy said:


> With the mini finally being released, I think at this point its safe to say that Tivo has more or less abandoned OTA use & will NOT have the OTA option on any future TiVO boxes. Instead, I'm thinking they will come out with a digital cable only, 6-tuner box that will also work with these minis. Its unfortunate, but chances are pretty good that it will be true.


I really hope that you are as wrong as you can be.


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## kettledrum

buscuitboy said:


> With the mini finally being released, I think at this point its safe to say that Tivo has more or less abandoned OTA use & will NOT have the OTA option on any future TiVO boxes. Instead, I'm thinking they will come out with a digital cable only, 6-tuner box that will also work with these minis. Its unfortunate, but chances are pretty good that it will be true.


As someone who cut the cord almost 2 years ago and is OTA only, I can only hope you are wrong.


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## buscuitboy

kettledrum said:


> As someone who cut the cord almost 2 years ago and is OTA only, I can only hope you are wrong.


I actually hope I am wrong too as I have been contemplating cutting the cord too, but I suppose we'll find out hopefully later this year.


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## Dan203

As someone else mentioned TiVo recently filed a petition with the FCC asking for a waiver so they do not have to include analog support in their next generation units. They specifically mention in the waiver request that at least one of the units will support OTA. 

We don't know the exact configuration of the units but we do know for a fact, from TiVos own petition to the FCC, that there will be one that supports OTA.


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## steve614

Technically, just because TiVo mentions DTV (antenna) in their FCC filing doesn't mean they have to make an OTA DVR. 
They are covering their bases so they CAN, if they choose to do so.

I sure hope they choose to do so, otherwise I'll just stick with what I have now and never buy another TiVo product.


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## Dan203

steve614 said:


> Technically, just because TiVo mentions DTV (antenna) in their FCC filing doesn't mean they have to make an OTA DVR.
> They are covering their bases so they CAN, if they choose to do so.
> 
> I sure hope they choose to do so, otherwise I'll just stick with what I have now and never buy another TiVo product.


Usually by the time they file these things they already have the product designed. I doubt they would mention OTA in the filing if they weren't planning on actually supporting it.

Edit: I was just re-reading the waiver request and this part seems to prove that they are intending to make a OTA unit...



> The requested waivers will allow TiVo to continue its history of expanding consumer choice in the retail set-top box market through the introduction of new all-digital devices. The devices subject to the requested waivers are part of the next generation of TiVo's all-digital "Premiere" line, for which the Commission previously granted TiVo waivers of portions of the "Digital Cable Ready" certification, marketing, and labeling rules (the DCRRules). TiVo therefore requires an extension of the existing waiver for those devices. One model of TiVo's new all-digital DVRs would include ATSC over-the-air reception capability; this model, therefore, requires waiver of both the DCR Rules and Section 15.117(b)'s dual analog/digital tuner requirement.


They specifically reference the "next generation" of Premiere units and are specifically asking for the waiver to be extended to include rules in the OTA mandates as well as the digital cable ones.


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## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> Usually by the time they file these things they already have the product designed. I doubt they would mention OTA in the filing if they weren't planning on actually supporting it.
> 
> Edit: I was just re-reading the waiver request and this part seems to prove that they are intending to make a OTA unit...
> 
> They specifically reference the "next generation" of Premiere units and are specifically asking for the waiver to be extended to include rules in the OTA mandates as well as the digital cable ones.


What mandates are there in OTA rules? There is no OTA analog anymore...


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## steve614

Dan203 said:


> Usually by the time they file these things they already have the product designed. I doubt they would mention OTA in the filing if they weren't planning on actually supporting it.
> 
> Edit: I was just re-reading the waiver request and this part seems to prove that they are intending to make a OTA unit...
> 
> [quote omitted]
> 
> They specifically reference the "next generation" of Premiere units and are specifically asking for the waiver to be extended to include rules in the OTA mandates as well as the digital cable ones.


Yeah, that wording leaves me hopeful. We'll just have to wait and see.



Bigg said:


> What mandates are there in OTA rules? There is no OTA analog anymore...


At this time, low power independant stations are still allowed to broadcast in analog.
I think there is a cutoff when analog is to be abandoned completely, but that hasn't happened yet (2015?)
And until that time comes, you need a waiver from the FCC to exclude analog tuning capability in any product put forth to consumers.


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## Bigg

steve614 said:


> At this time, low power independant stations are still allowed to broadcast in analog.
> I think there is a cutoff when analog is to be abandoned completely, but that hasn't happened yet (2015?)
> And until that time comes, you need a waiver from the FCC to exclude analog tuning capability in any product put forth to consumers.


Oh man, the FCC needs to grow a pair. They should have done a total cutover not long after the initial cut-over.


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## jadziedzic

September 1, 2015 is the cutoff date for the remaining analog stations in the US to cease broadcasting.


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## jmpage2

Bigg said:


> Oh man, the FCC needs to grow a pair. They should have done a total cutover not long after the initial cut-over.


You seriously underestimate the ability of rural Americans to scream at the FCC and their elected representatives over the need to get a digital tuner box for that 30 year old set they still watch.


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## atmuscarella

jmpage2 said:


> You seriously underestimate the ability of rural Americans to scream at the FCC and their elected representatives over the need to get a digital tuner box for that 30 year old set they still watch.


I hope you are joking -

The one I know of in the Rochester NY area is a home shopping network and doesn't have enough strength to make it very far out of the city. There were other low power stations again all in or near the city but I think most have gone away or converted to digital the last one to convert that I know about was the MyTV network again it was near the city not in the Rural areas.

Frankly I agree with the sentiment that it is BS that these things are still around.


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## Bigg

jmpage2 said:


> You seriously underestimate the ability of rural Americans to scream at the FCC and their elected representatives over the need to get a digital tuner box for that 30 year old set they still watch.


That has nothing to do with it, as it was only small stations and translators, but the FCC just didn't grow a pair to force them over for a long, long time.


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## dhoward

I have a question. I have my Mini connected to a P4. It works as advertised. I can watch both live TV and recorded shows. I also have a P2 and it can also see that and play anything in the My Shows folder. I thought it would not work at all with a P2 or is it just that it cannot watch live tv on the P2.

In addition I was a little bothered that my 4 tuner had to become a 3 tuner but since I have not encountered a time when I need all 4 tuners recording it has not been a problem. Even if it was I can set the Mini to record the fourth show if needed and just not watch anything while it is recording. So from my perspective it seems like some of the short comings are not as bad as I originally thought. Am I missing something?


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## Arcady

The Mini can't record anything. You can only record three shows at a time if you have a tuner reserved for the Mini.


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## dhoward

I set up a recording from the mini and it recorded. What tuner recorded if not the one assigned to the mini?


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## moyekj

dhoward said:


> I set up a recording from the mini and it recorded. What tuner recorded if not the one assigned to the mini?


 It records on the host 4 tuner unit. i.e. The Mini is just a front end to the host unit for anything to do with setting up recordings, season passes, etc. The tuner used for live TV by the Mini is actually barred from recording anything except for live TV for the purpose of viewing on the Mini. Since the host unit only has 3 tuners left for recording in this situation, you can only record up to 3 things at a time.


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## dhoward

moyekj said:


> It records on the host 4 tuner unit. i.e. The Mini is just a front end to the host unit for anything to do with setting up recordings, season passes, etc. The tuner used for live TV by the Mini is actually barred from recording anything except for live TV for the purpose of viewing on the Mini. Since the host unit only has 3 tuners left for recording in this situation, you can only record up to 3 things at a time.


You are right. I just did a record and then looked at the P4 to see which tuner was being used and it was one of the unused 3. What about the ability of watching recorded shows on the P2. Is that my imagination? I thought the P2 could not be accessed by the Mini or is that only for live TV?


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## Arcady

You can watch recordings from any 2-tuner Premiere on your network. Some people on this forum have reported that they disconnected their 4-tuner boxes from the network and it continued to work from 2-tuner boxes, but with some type of error message. But nobody has tried removing their 4-tuner box from their TiVo account, as far as I know.

You cannot watch a live tuner from a 2-tuner box, because it has no option to allow a tuner for remote devices.


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## overFEDEXed

Arcady said:


> You can watch recordings from any 2-tuner Premiere on your network. Some people on this forum have reported that they disconnected their 4-tuner boxes from the network and it continued to work from 2-tuner boxes, but with some type of error message. But nobody has tried removing their 4-tuner box from their TiVo account, as far as I know.
> 
> You cannot watch a live tuner from a 2-tuner box, because it has no option to allow a tuner for remote devices.


Here is the error screen, when trying to access the two tuner, after disconnecting the Host, four tuner.


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## aaronwt

overFEDEXed said:


> Here is the error screen, when trying to access the two tuner, after disconnecting the Host, four tuner.
> 
> View attachment 18516


The error pops up and you hit ok. Then it shows the other TiVos on your network. And you select the one you want to view shows from.


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## slowbiscuit

For as long as Tivo keeps this loophole open of course, we also don't know if it's time-limited yet.

Most people won't bother doing a buy-and-return on a 4-tuner to get 2-tuners working with a Mini IMO, so they may just leave it this way.


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## magnus

slowbiscuit said:


> For as long as Tivo keeps this loophole open of course, we also don't know if it's time-limited yet.
> 
> Most people won't bother doing a buy-and-return on a 4-tuner to get 2-tuners working with a Mini IMO, so they may just leave it this way.


Hmmmn, I might consider it just to get past this BS rule that Tivo has on the 2 tuner boxes.

JK but I sure can see some people doing this.


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