# Game of Thrones - S07E04 The Spoils of War 8/6/2017



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Loved the cave scenes. Loved Arya and Brienne. Loved Arya coming home. Finally, dragons in battle!


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Mine said "The Spoils of War"

Mockingbird was season 4 episode 7. 

I think you got your numbers transposed.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

You're right. In looking it up, it Google gave me Season 4 episode 7 instead of season 7 episode 4. I watch through HBO Go and it doesn't show the titles, for some reason. Just the numbers.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> You're right. In looking it up, it Google gave me Season 4 episode 7 instead of season 7 episode 4. I watch through HBO Go and it doesn't show the titles, for some reason. Just the numbers.


I see hbo Go takes a while to get episode names. They had 64 for tonight. It the right titles for the rest.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I can't believe how quickly the last half of that episode went by.

No way Jamie is dead. If they were going to kill him they'd have roasted him and his horse in a ball of dragon fire. He'll be back.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

That was a LOT. I was so stressed during that battle. I was literally pacing my living room saying "not Bronn! not Jaime!" the entire time. Wow. I was honestly less stressed during Battle of the Bastards than this. I liked Jon's speech to Dany although I'm not sure she listened. No she didn't attack the red keep but she did take Drogon and roast a whole lot of people. I guess they don't consider any of them innocents though.

Also was it just me or did Sansa not look thrilled at how skillful Arya has become??

BRAN for the first time I was like OH SNAP when he quoted Baelish "chaos is a ladder" thing at him. I think he might have pooed himself a bit too. I don't want him to die but I fear he's walking a thin line here since Bran clearly knows all the evil deeds he's done. Why hasn't he told Sansa??

I have more but I just had to come say that was a fantastic episode!
Also didn't love Dany in the cave. "I'll help you fight the north .........when you bend the knee".


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

It's odd that it takes a while to update. I've asked a Mod to change the name.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Also didn't love Dany in the cave. "I'll help you fight the north .........when you bend the knee".


And we don't know what his answer was.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Indeed, "Mockingbird" was the title of season 4 episode 7. I guess I can sort of see how someone somewhere may have screwed that up, but it was definitely called "The Spoils of War" on Hulu. 

Still, the title made me a littler nervous coming into this thread and posting. Can we get a mod to fix the title?

Another great episode. I think anyone who felt a bit shortchanged about the way the previous weeks battles were just skimmed over can feel a little satisfaction this week.

I knew Dany was going to get desperate and use a dragon. I predicted last week she was going to get one killed. Damn close this week. I didn't know they were carrying one of those crossbows around with them, but the minute Jamie mentioned it I though "oh crap". When it hit Drogon and he fell, that was a heart wrenching moment. Glad to see he landed and still could serve up some fire, so probably a good chance he's still alright. If it were Viserion or Rhaegal then there'd be some suspense over just how badly it was hurt, but since it's Drogon I'm sure he'll recover, but she'll have to be more careful...especially if Jamie makes it back to Cersei and tells her it was fairly effective and they ramp up production of those crossbows.

Jamie charging at Cersei was a pretty predictable outcome...but at the back of my mind I kept thinking "or is this a Ned moment". It's nice the way they've built this show...even with key characters you really learn to never get too comfortable, so even when it's predictable you can't really be sure.

I did find it odd that the gold made it all the way back to Kings Landing already. It seemed like they were still a ways away, and with that much gold, I figured they'd want to keep the army nearby to protect it instead of sending it on ahead with just a handful of riders.

Poor Bronn...gets screwed again. No castle, and now no gold.

Did I sense a bit of regret as Tyrion watched on?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

That was a lot of fun. 

I think Dany did take John's advice. She used the dragons in open battle. She also used the dothraki as he hand advised.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

heySkippy said:


> And we don't know what his answer was.


I think if he had said yes, Davos wouldn't have been so quick to correct Missandei when she called Jon "Lord".


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> And we don't know what his answer was.


I suspect his answer didn't change, and if it didn't, then I think Dany just lost a lot of her bargaining power now that Jon knows she's getting her ass kicked. I'm not sure if the outcome of this battle puts her in a better or worse position in that respect.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

And how many of them big cross bows did they build? It looked like they had just one and they sent it with the army? Kings Landing is not protected?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> I suspect his answer didn't change, and if it didn't know I think Dany just lost a lot of her bargaining power now that Jon knows she's getting her ass kicked. I'm not sure if the outcome of this battle puts her in a better or worse position in that respect.


Assuming Drogon survives, this battle is a clear win for Dany.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I doubt that was the only one. Cersai ordered more made when Qyburn proved to her what it could do. We are getting a lot of time compression this season. The sad and happy part about GRR not having written this far is that things are going much faster now.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> I doubt that was the only one. Cersai ordered more made when Qyburn proved to her what it could do. We are getting a lot of time compression this season. The sad and happy part about GRR not having written this far is that things are going much faster now.


They have to move faster. We are down to a handful of episodes and have to settle the white Walker issue and the battle for the iron throne. That's a lot.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> They have to move faster. We are down to a handful of episodes and have to settle the white Walker issue and the battle for the iron throne. That's a lot.


They didn't have to end it in two seasons though. I bet if we were still following the books, we would get another 3-4 seasons, minimum, the way GRR writes.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Cool to see the issue of the knife come back up again. I was anxious to see what Bran knew about its origin. I'm just not buying into this new cold, distant, unfeeling Bran. Clearly they're trying to throw the answer at you before you can ask the question ("he died in that cave"), but still that story doesn't work for me. Probably little surprise though since his entire story line was always the least interesting to me (and I didn't miss him for an entire season either). He is a semi-interesting plot element so far as he can answer for viewers all those other unanswered plot questions (rather than leaving it for speculation), but I'm still not into him.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I was amused during the Arya-Brienne tussle how much Arya looked and moved like her former tormentor in Braavos (did she ever get a name?).


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> They didn't have to end it in two seasons though. I bet if we were still following the books, we would get another 3-4 seasons, minimum, the way GRR writes.


Right. I don't think we fast progressions because there are only 13 episode. We have 13 episodes because that's the story they've written. Yes, they're following GRRM's outline, but that outline has a heck of a lot of detail in the middle that's probably being left out.


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

I think one of the Dragons will die, but it will not be Drogon as that is Danny's dragon*. We still don't yet know who will be the riders of the other two dragons. Dragons without rdiers are not as effective in battle.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I was amused during the Arya-Brienne tussle how much Arya looked and moved like her former tormentor in Braavos (did she ever get a name?).


Uhhhh.....how about "noone"? It does feel really odd how Arya suddenly has become not only this master assassin and master the faceless arts, but now she's suddenly this amazing swords(wo)man too?

I'll have to go back and watch the battle again, but I was thinking it was more "syrio forel" than it was "noone".


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I was amused during the Arya-Brienne tussle how much Arya looked and moved like her former tormentor in Braavos (did she ever get a name?).


She is no one.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Jaqen is what he called himself when she knew him at Harrenhall.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Ever since they intro Bran as the Three Eye Raven, his purpose is to reveal Jon's true parentage. He's the DNA test.

I found it strange how Baelish admired Arya's skill and not Sansa. You would think he'd be the one afraid.

That battle scene was epic. And totally unexpected. Scary how dragon fire turn people to ashes so quickly. 

No way Jaimie is dead. And how is that water he fell into so deep? It looked very shallow to me.


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## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

So who saved Jamie? Bronn? hard to tell.

This episode seemed a bit short in time too.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Also was it just me or did Sansa not look thrilled at how skillful Arya has become??


She was probably glad that Arya was back not just to be reunited with her, but also because of how much Bran had changed. She was hoping to have a more normal familial relationship with Arya, and then found out that she had become a skilled fighter with a hit list. Like the Lannister squad, at first she didn't take that list seriously. But then when Bran referred to it, she started to realize how much her sister had changed.

When Jon gets back, she'll probably sigh with relief, and think to herself, "Finally, someone normal in the family has returned." And then Bran will stoically tell her that Jon is actually her cousin and half-Targaryen.



photoshopgrl said:


> BRAN for the first time I was like OH SNAP when he quoted Baelish "chaos is a ladder" thing at him. I think he might have pooed himself a bit too.


It was nice to see one of Petyr's attempted manipulations backfire on him. The funny thing is, I don't think Bran was attempting to counter his manipulation with one of his own. He was just being the Three-Eyed Raven, but Petyr likely thought Bran was playing some deeper game, and is now racking his brain trying to figure out what to do with all these dangerous Stark children.



photoshopgrl said:


> I don't want him to die but I fear he's walking a thin line here since Bran clearly knows all the evil deeds he's done. Why hasn't he told Sansa??


I think it's because, as he told Meera, he isn't really Bran anymore. What made him Bran was his experiences, but now he has access to magnitudes more. He is aware that Sansa is his sister, but no longer has a personal connection to her. (Or rather, that personal connection has been so dwarfed by everything else that it is practically nonexistent.)



LordKronos said:


> I did find it odd that the gold made it all the way back to Kings Landing already. It seemed like they were still a ways away, and with that much gold, I figured they'd want to keep the army nearby to protect it instead of sending it on ahead with just a handful of riders.


Part of the army was managing the moving of the gold. What we saw were the Lannister forces that had stayed back to forcibly take food from the locals to ship back to King's Landing. Cersei will probably use the destruction of those supplies as propaganda against Daenerys.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DUSlider said:


> So who saved Jamie? Bronn? hard to tell.


It's absolutely Bronn










That's his outfit, and that's the white horse he eyed after Drogon destroyed the scorpion. Also you can see the same gloves he was wearing in another frame (and it looks like his hair)


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> I can't believe how quickly the last half of that episode went by.
> 
> No way Jamie is dead. If they were going to kill him they'd have roasted him and his horse in a ball of dragon fire. He'll be back.


I agree, but it's going to be a trick ro not drown while wearing the armor. But I'm sure they'll make it happen somehow.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Uhhhh.....how about "noone"? It does feel really odd how Arya suddenly has become not only this master assassin and master the faceless arts, but now she's suddenly this amazing swords(wo)man too?
> 
> I'll have to go back and watch the battle again, but I was thinking it was more "syrio forel" than it was "noone".


But her posture and her smirk were dead ringers for the Waif when she was doing to Arya what Arya was doing to Brienne.

(And remember, Arya killed the Waif in a sword fight.)


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But her posture and her smirk were dead ringers for the Waif when she was doing to Arya what Arya was doing to Brienne.
> 
> (And remember, Arya killed the Waif in a sword fight.)


Yeah you're right. And the dialog specifically makes it obvious: "who taught you how to do that"...."noone"


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## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)

*OMG!!! YAS!!!!! talk about Satisfied.








Best Episode of GoT so far..... the SE were stunning.

------

Jon:* Hello, who dis

*Daenerys:* Ben

*Jon:* Ben who?

*Daenerys:* Ben D. Knee

_-hangs up-

*------

Bran: *Chaos is a ladder.
*
Littlefinger: *(◉_◉)

*------

Aria greatest of all time

------*

I'm liking how Davos is nudging Jon to a solution to his bending the knee problem with Dany.

Dany needs a consort, Jon needs a Queen, two birds - one stone. Dany would get to be Queen in the North and the North would be OK with it.

*------*

Bronn is worth every ****ing penny
*
------*
HAHAHA!!!!!!!

Jaimee you arrogant twit !!!!!!!!!!, Listen to Bronn.., "Get back to kings landing... I ain't no infantryman...."

I have been waiting for this...
_


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I agree about the ending: that was basically a creek and Jamie is riding his horse through a foot or so of water, then he's knocked off sideways and he's sinking like it was Loch Ness...?!?!

Still, loved everything about this episode. I'm sad that we have so few left but it's great how quickly they're forging ahead with the story.


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## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)

> _F**k, Bronn is going to die,
> F**k, Drogon is going to die,
> F**k, Dany is going to die,
> F**k, Jaime is going to die_


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> I did find it odd that the gold made it all the way back to Kings Landing already. It seemed like they were still a ways away, and with that much gold, I figured they'd want to keep the army nearby to protect it instead of sending it on ahead with just a handful of riders.


I was a little bit confused about this. Had the gold already made it back to King's Landing, or was it in the wagons? I thought the dialog had indicated the gold was safely inside the gates of King's Landing, but



Spoiler



After the episode HBO mentioned going online to see how the "attack on the loot train" was done. "loot train" to me says the gold was there... or are they referring to other loot?



Other thoughts about this episode...

I thought Dany followed Jon's advice to the letter. She didn't melt castles or burn cities -- instead she found an army out in the open an obliterated it. Of course she used the dragons, they're a tactical asset. Risky, but Dany is one for taking risks.

Now Dany knows about the spear throwers. For the Lannisters, they've lost the advantage of surprise. Where Dany could have attacked King's Landing and lost all three dragons to those spear throwers, she will now expect King's Landing to be fortified. They needed to deal a decisive blow with the first spear thrower. They didn't.

Most entertaining and suspenseful battle of the series, because of the real possibility that several main characters could have been killed. In any other series, you'd say absolutely not, but in this series Dany taking a spear or Jaime getting BBQed was a possibility. At the very least, the loss of Bronn was a possibility.

Did the two Tarleys (Dickon and father) survive the battle? There were so many Lannisters and allies dying in so many ways, that I didn't keep track of them.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> That was a lot of fun.
> 
> I think Dany did take John's advice. She used the dragons in open battle. She also used the dothraki as he hand advised.


Very smart compromise, because she didn't want to use the Dragons & Dothraki on the citizens, and she didn't.

I this episode was amazing in many ways, mostly because of who's fighting.

You have Tyrion, who most of the audience loves, watching his brother's army fight his Queen, who most of the audience loves.

So what and who do you root for? It's not the normal, I hate everybody, who to root for, it's that I think most people like most everybody.

-smak-


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smbaker said:


> Most entertaining and suspenseful battle of the series, because of the real possibility that several main characters could have been killed. In any other series, you'd say absolutely not, but in this series Dany taking a spear or Jaime getting BBQed was a possibility.


Dany, not a chance. She dies, the war they've spent much of the series setting up is over.

Jaime, barely conceivable. But just barely. He's not done yet.


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## leswar (Apr 14, 2005)

I think there's a possibility that the arrow was tipped with poison and the dragon will suffer a horrible death.

I thought it bad tactics for her to open only one spot in the battle line for the Dracki horsemen to penetrate. Usually, cavalry are
used to outflank the opponent's front line; not charge head long into the center of it. But she had already split her forces ( bad advise)
and had no ground troops (The Unsulled) for a frontal attack.

She herself could have out flanked the main battle line with her dragon and obliterated it (traveling down the line once - with fire).
Instead she opted to destroy the supply train when she was low on food. Should have saved the wagon train for her own people's needs.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Now THAT was good television.

Can you create armor for dragons? That spear didn't look all that big when it was in the dragon's shoulder. Looked more like a flesh wound to me than a death blow.

Emilia Clarke is gorgeous. Sophie Turner and Nathalie Emmanuel ain't bad either. The show's three prettiest women in one episode. Yay, us.

I kinda expected Bronn to have a glorious death but I guess he's too popular a character to kill off even though he should have been dead about three times during that battle. 

I chuckled when the miscellaneous Dothraki guy said to Tyrion "Your people can't fight."

I'm guessing the Iron Bank guy won't be too happy that the Lannisters won't be paying their debt any time soon.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tyrion was watching Jaime...he won't let him drown. But that means Jaime will be a prisoner and maybe he can be turned...

I thought for sure the Dany/Jon conversation was going to end in a marriage proposal.

Dickon? Seriously?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm guessing the Iron Bank guy won't be too happy that the Lannisters won't be paying their debt any time soon.


Why? the gold made it King's Landing.

Oh, I thought it was wrong of Dany to destroy all that food instead of capturing it. She needs food as well with Winter being here and all...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Why? the gold made it King's Landing.


Crap. I'm wrong again.

One Game of Thrones Scene Explains Why Daenerys Is Losing the War


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Oh, I thought it was wrong of Dany to destroy all that food instead of capturing it. She needs food as well with Winter being here and all...


Did she know it was food? For all she knew, she could just be destroying the army's supply train...


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Dany, not a chance. She dies, the war they've spent much of the series setting up is over.
> 
> Jaime, barely conceivable. But just barely. He's not done yet.


As far as Bronn goes, I thought for sure he would be burned to a crisp. Would have liked to see that. I like Bronn, but for me his arc is over.


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## fmowry (Apr 30, 2002)

I thought when a scene focused on Jamie watching single wagon riding away on fire that that wagon was the gold wagon and that maybe he actually lied when he said the gold had made it back to King's Landing.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

smbaker said:


> Did the two Tarleys (Dickon and father) survive the battle? There were so many Lannisters and allies dying in so many ways, that I didn't keep track of them.


 Definitely the father didn't, we saw him on fire falling down. I can't remember exactly about Dickon but I suspect the only survivors from this are going to be Bronn and Jaime.



cheesesteak said:


> Can you create armor for dragons? That spear didn't look all that big when it was in the dragon's shoulder. Looked more like a flesh wound to me than a death blow.


Funny you say this because there was one scene that it almost looked like there was some kind of armor plate on the belly of Drogon as he was on the ground. I'm sure I'm wrong but that was my fleeting thought watching it.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I thought for sure the Dany/Jon conversation was going to end in a marriage proposal.


Yeah, when Jon said that the people of the North wouldn't follow a Southern ruler, I expected her to say, "They would, if she was married to their King."


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

"Fewer"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ADG said:


> "Fewer"


That cracked me up, especially the way he just quietly slipped it in there.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

getbak said:


> Yeah, when Jon said that the people of the North wouldn't follow a Southern ruler, I expected her to say, "They would, if she was married to their King."


If they married then wouldn't he be THE king and the one with all the authority?


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I don't get "Chaos is a ladder"


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I don't get "Chaos is a ladder"


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Did she know it was food? For all she knew, she could just be destroying the army's supply train...


Supply of what?

whatever it was, she's better off keeping it than destroying it. I guess if it's armor, it's not needed. But take a look before burning it.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


>


Thanks! And I don't feel bad - it seems like only a real GoT superfan would remember that.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Thanks! And I don't feel bad - it seems like only a real GoT superfan would remember that.


I remember it because Baelish is one of my favorite characters.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Robin said:


> If they married then wouldn't he be THE king and the one with all the authority?


Not necessarily...e.g., Queen Elizabeth and Philip.

I suspect Daenerys is not the type to cede her natural authority just because she got married.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

fmowry said:


> I thought when a scene focused on Jamie watching single wagon riding away on fire that that wagon was the gold wagon and that maybe he actually lied when he said the gold had made it back to King's Landing.


I thought the same thing.

Can anyone remind me if there was something with Arya and Littlefinger? She did not seem that happy he was there.

And I gotta say: Sophie Turner and Maisie Williams have aged well as actors. They are both turning in fine performances.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Cainebj said:


> Can anyone remind me if there was something with Arya and Littlefinger? She did not seem that happy he was there.


As far as I can remember nothing other than when he spotted her at Harrenhal and didn't say anything.


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not necessarily...e.g., Queen Elizabeth and Philip.
> 
> I suspect Daenerys is not the type to cede her natural authority just because she got married.


It's a little different than Queen Elizabeth and Philip, especially considering Jon Snow's parents, though neither knows this yet.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Family said:


> It's a little different than Queen Elizabeth and Philip, especially considering Jon Snow's parents, though neither knows this yet.


Yes, it may turn out that he has a better claim than she does (depending on whether his parents married). But as it stands, from Dany's perspective he's just a bastard Northern usurper. No way is she going to enter a marriage that would give him power over her.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

fmowry said:


> I thought when a scene focused on Jamie watching single wagon riding away on fire that that wagon was the gold wagon and that maybe he actually lied when he said the gold had made it back to King's Landing.


The wagon with the gold was fully enclosed and locked. The wagon that was on fire was just a regular open wagon with supplies piled on the back.

Tarly wouldn't have had any reason to lie about the gold being inside King's Landing.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That cracked me up, especially the way he just quietly slipped it in there.


??? I know the Stannis origin of the "fewer" thing, but what did I miss last night?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> ??? I know the Stannis origin of the "fewer" thing, but what did I miss last night?


Jon said "less" instead of "fewer; Stannis started to correct him then gave up.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Jon said "less" instead of "fewer; Stannis started to correct him then gave up.


You know nothing, Jon Snow, of grammar.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

So, it's a pretty safe assumption that Jamie (and Bronn) won't drown, so will they be captured, or somehow hide until Team Dragon leaves the area?


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> I remember it because Baelish is one of my favorite characters.


He kind of was for me, but he's a little over the top lately. Like he should be twirling his mustache.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

BrettStah said:


> So, it's a pretty safe assumption that Jamie (and Bronn) won't drown, so will they be captured, or somehow hide until Team Dragon leaves the area?


Those are the possibilities


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Bran is useless. What is the point of that kid? He is adding nothing. 

What is Arya's point now? Just a northern soldier? Or will she go back into the shadows to become the assasian? 

Bron should have died. Not killing Bron or Jamie was a cop out. Bron has not point anymore and should have been roasted.


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

BrettStah said:


> So, it's a pretty safe assumption that Jamie (and Bronn) won't drown, so will they be captured, or somehow hide until Team Dragon leaves the area?


Yes I think they will be captured and after the inevitable anger at his brother, Jamie will be convinced they need to unite against the white walkers. That's why Jamie needed proof Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey.

Next it will be Cersei to deal with and Jamie will be the one who has to remove her. In not a nice way.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I agree about Bronn. He shoulda been roasted. But Bran will play a huge part much later on. Most likely next season.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Jon said "less" instead of "fewer; Stannis started to correct him then gave up.


Damn, even in the grave, Stannis continues to be a grammar nazi


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

mwhip said:


> Bran is useless. What is the point of that kid? He is adding nothing.
> 
> What is Arya's point now? Just a northern soldier? Or will she go back into the shadows to become the assasian?
> 
> Bron should have died. Not killing Bron or Jamie was a cop out. Bron has not point anymore and should have been roasted.


Bran is going to be the one who's going to tell us of the relationship between Dany and Jon. That's why he's who he is. I also imagine, given his powers, he's going to predict something big that will foreshadow how everything ends. He's a story conduit.

One other thought. i wonder what having the Tarley's die in this episode (assuming they ARE dead), means for Sam. Is he going to get called back home to be Lord?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Steveknj said:


> Bran is going to be the one who's going to tell us of the relationship between Dany and Jon. That's why he's who he is. I also imagine, given his powers, he's going to predict something big that will foreshadow how everything ends. He's a story conduit.


But is his sight futures or only past?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Damn, even in the grave, Stannis continues to be a grammar nazi


Heh. Obviously, I should have said Davos. But really, it was Stannis speaking through him...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Tyrion was watching Jaime...he won't let him drown. But that means Jaime will be a prisoner and maybe he can be turned...





Family said:


> Yes I think they will be captured and after the inevitable anger at his brother, Jamie will be convinced they need to unite against the white walkers. That's why Jamie needed proof Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey.
> 
> Next it will be Cersei to deal with and Jamie will be the one who has to remove her. In not a nice way.


Interesting idea...if only someone had mentioned it earlier...oh wait! 

I'm torn between the idea that it must be - simply must be - Jaime to eventually kill Cersei and the whole Arya arc leading up to her being the one...No matter, it has to be one of the two. My vote is that Jaime will be the one. Getting captured by Tyrion is a step in that direction.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

BrettStah said:


> So, it's a pretty safe assumption that Jamie (and Bronn) won't drown, so will they be captured, or somehow hide until Team Dragon leaves the area?


My guess is captured. Unless Daenerys decides to continue charging forward to go after more of the Lannister army down the road, her forces are going to be in the area for a while. Bronn and Jaime are going to have to come up for air soon, and there is not much room to hide.

Poor horses, though. Just before they died, Jaime's was probably thinking, "You stupidly force me to charge toward a dragon, and I am the one who gets punished?" And Bronn's was like, "You sacrifice my life, and get to be the hero? WTF?"



Steveknj said:


> One other thought. i wonder what having the Tarley's die in this episode (assuming they ARE dead), means for Sam. Is he going to get called back home to be Lord?


He has already given up any claim to that with his oath to the Night's Watch. So it would pass to his sister's firstborn son if she ended up having one.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> He has already given up any claim to that with his oath to the Night's Watch. So it would pass to his sister's firstborn son if she ended up having one.


Then again, if Bastard Jon can go from the Watch to King of the North...


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Bran is going to be the one who's going to tell us of the relationship between Dany and Jon. That's why he's who he is. I also imagine, given his powers, he's going to predict something big that will foreshadow how everything ends. He's a story conduit.


Why would most people believe him? His family will probably believe. Others? Not so much. I think he will provide this information but I bet that Sam provides the real proof in those rolls he needed to transcribe. That or a witness from the event, like the midwife, will turn up. Maybe both.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Then again, if Bastard Jon can go from the Watch to King of the North...


Dying is how that happened. I doubt Sam wants that path!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I agree Jaime will be saved by Tyrion. He saw him fall in the water, and no way he lets his brother drown. They will talk, and Tyrion will send his brother back to King's Landing. Maybe Jaime's turned, or maybe just as living proof of a number of things (power of dragons, wrath of the Dothraki, Tyrion's innocence, yada). The prophecy of the Valonqar is still hanging out there.



mwhip said:


> Bran is useless. What is the point of that kid? He is adding nothing.
> 
> What is Arya's point now? Just a northern soldier? Or will she go back into the shadows to become the assasian?


Bran isn't useless. He's the Three Eyed Raven, and clearly has a huge role in the story. I also thought he was much "better" this week, with Arya (let's call him "mystical Bran"), than in his first meeting with Sansa (creepy Bran).

Arya? She now has a Valyrian steel dagger. That *has* to play a role. Valyrian steel, one of the few things capable of killing a White Walker. Do I have to spell it out?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

leswar said:


> She herself could have out flanked the main battle line with her dragon and obliterated it (traveling down the line once - with fire).
> Instead she opted to destroy the supply train when she was low on food. Should have saved the wagon train for her own people's needs.


Taking out the entire line is what I expected her to do, and so I was also surprised when she didn't. Once her forces got there, she wouldn't have wanted them to get caught up in the fire. But she could have flown further ahead of them and off to a side to clear out the whole path.

Hopefully when Jorah gets back to her, he can provide advice on better battle tactics.

Every episode since #2 has ended with an increasingly bigger battle. I wonder what will be in store next week.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Arya? She now has a Valyrian steel dagger. That *has* to play a role. Valyrian steel, one of the few things capable of killing a White Walker. Do I have to spell it out?


The dagger has to be very important. I think we got that pretty clearly last night.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Yeah, Dany once again shows she's no military strategist. All of the opposing army was lined up. Instead of burning through the line, just ride straight down it. There really wasn't a reason to lose a single Dothraki, and she's already lost use of major parts of her army.

Still, it made for excellent TV. I was definitely weirdly rooting for the dragon. I guess book readers might have the answer, but I'm wondering how much fire they can spew before recharging somehow?

I was really expecting one of the main characters to bite it this episode. But now I can definitely see the need for Tyrion and Jaime to have a conversation.

Winter is a weird disappointment. There are flurries in the north, and high garden is glorious and sunny. So even if the dragon just destroyed food, that'll help with the siege. But "Winter is here" is seemingly no different than "winter is coming". Well, except for the white walkers.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

The reason these characters, Bronn included, don't die is because their story is NOT over. The cast has been stripped back recently but these have some role to play.

Jaime sinking and the cut to silence was an odd choice, assuming he's not dead.

I totally agree that Baelish is over the top these days.

Man I hope Brandon is not central to the end game. Everything about the story, character and actor is wrong.

Great episode, short though, which I had noticed going in.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Then again, if Bastard Jon can go from the Watch to King of the North...





BeanMeScot said:


> Dying is how that happened. I doubt Sam wants that path!


I don't think Sam would even want to be a lord if he were allowed, let alone is dying to become one.

The only thing better than being a maester of the Night's Watch for him might be being an archmaester in the Citadel. And even then, only for the access to the books. I think he wants to be more connected with the world than most of the maesters there.



astrohip said:


> Arya? She now has a Valyrian steel dagger. That *has* to play a role. Valyrian steel, one of the few things capable of killing a White Walker. Do I have to spell it out?


If someone who is no one can impersonate the dead, can someone who was no one impersonate the undead? Will the Night King eventually get added to her list?


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Interesting idea...if only someone had mentioned it earlier...oh wait!


Sorry. Age.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> Why would most people believe him? His family will probably believe. Others? Not so much. I think he will provide this information but I bet that Sam provides the real proof in those rolls he needed to transcribe. That or a witness from the event, like the midwife, will turn up. Maybe both.


Unless he can take other to the past (like the old Three-Eyed Raven took him)...if he can show Dany , then given her natural sense of honor it';s probably game over.

There will never be a paper trail for Jon's parentage. That would have defeated the whole purpose of the secrecy.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm pretty sure that Chekhov's valyrian steel dagger will play a major role in this story's end game.

I don't fault Dany for crispyfying the supply chain without checking its contents. They do the same thing in every war movie and documentary I've watched.

Although Bran is boring, I can see how he is important to the story. Theon, not so much. Unless he is somehow able to assemble a magic fleet like Euron's.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Okay something isn't sitting right for me. In the caves Jon shows Dany that the children of the forest and the first men fought together against the white walkers but we already know that the children of the forest created the white walkers _because _of the first men. So I guess they rallied together after the fact and made cave drawings about it? Seems odd to me.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

astrohip said:


> Arya? She now has a Valyrian steel dagger. That *has* to play a role. Valyrian steel, one of the few things capable of killing a White Walker. Do I have to spell it out?


Arya kills a White Walker, steals its face, goes undercover in the Great Army of Evil, kills the Night King...and takes over the Army.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Unless he can take other to the past (like the old Three-Eyed Raven took him)...if he can show Dany , then given her natural sense of honor it';s probably game over.
> 
> There will never be a paper trail for Jon's parentage. That would have defeated the whole purpose of the secrecy.


But there would be no point in his being legitimate, or even their child, if there was and is never any proof of it. If the father ever wanted him to be anything other than a bastard, he would have had to hide proof of the birth and/or marriage somewhere. Somewhere it wouldn't come up until the kid was of age (to protect him from people trying to kill him). It was probably supposed to have come up already but something happened to the mechanism to bring it forward.

It's quite possible the only reason Bran could be taken to the past is because he was destined to be the next TER.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay something isn't sitting right for me. In the caves Jon shows Dany that the children of the forest and the first men fought together against the white walkers but we already know that the children of the forest created the white walkers _because _of the first men. So I guess they rallied together after the fact and made cave drawings about it? Seems odd to me.


Yes, I had the same thoughts. Odd scene.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

I did have to say "come on!" when Bronn _and_ Jaime are both miraculously saved by jumping (or being pushed) out of the way of the *massive jet of super-heated flames* (hot enough to reduce men to ash instantly!). Being anywhere in the vicinity of that flame should have been enough to at least burn someone severely.

Though I'm not surprised that Jaime survived; he still has a redemption arc to complete, and as murderous as GRRM's pen can be, he tends not to off characters who are in that point in their development. And Jaime's too prominent a character for the TV producers to change his outcome.



Jstkiddn said:


> I agree, but it's going to be a trick ro not drown while wearing the armor. But I'm sure they'll make it happen somehow.


My guess is that Jaime will be saved by some new supernatural means. Did anyone else notice the Stargate-like arch/circle ruin in the water he was falling through? Maybe we'll get to meet mer-men, or find out that not all stone-men actually die of their affliction, or ...who knows?

ETA: Did anyone else notice how neatly the writers answered the question of whether Bran can see the future? He said that he thought Arya would continue to King's Landing, which means that he couldn't see past her decision until she made it. So his vision must be limited to the past & present, at least most of the time.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

These Five Military Blunders Cost Jaime Lannister Dearly on This Week's Game of Thrones

Tyrion seemed closer to the battle than I would have thought if he could make out Jamie so clearly.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dcheesi said:


> I did have to say "come on!" when Bronn _and_ Jaime are both miraculously saved by jumping (or being pushed) out of the way of the *massive jet of super-heated flames* (hot enough to reduce men to ash instantly!). Being anywhere in the vicinity of that flame should have been enough to at least burn someone severely.


I don't think it burns men to ash instantly...I think it's like napalm, that clings. We saw plenty of people running around on fire screaming, so clearly not instant!

And Bronn pushed Jaime into the water. No coincidence there.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Also am I the only one that thought for a split second Theon was going to try to hug Jon?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Did anyone else wonder about the temperature of the water as Jaime and Bronn were sinking? If the flame is hot enough to burn people to ash, then was it also not hot enough to cause the water to boil...or at least become hot enough to scald?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Did anyone else wonder about the temperature of the water as Jaime and Bronn were sinking? If the flame is hot enough to burn people to ash, then was it also not hot enough to cause the water to boil...or at least become hot enough to scald?


That's more my concern with it than that it wouldn't protect them. Water has always been darn good protection from flames . I think the fact that it was so deep would help what you are talking about. The top layer would steam away but the larger and deeper it was, the less the overall would be impacted. Although it certainly didn't seem like it was anywhere near that deep anywhere else in the episode!


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think it burns men to ash instantly...I think it's like napalm, that clings. We saw plenty of people running around on fire screaming, so clearly not instant!
> 
> And Bronn pushed Jaime into the water. No coincidence there.


We clearly saw shots of men's bodies, frozen in position at the time of the flames' impact, crumbling and collapsing into ash. Those were the direct hits. The ones running around burned and screaming, those were the near-misses. What I'm saying is that Bronn, at least, should have looked like one of the latter after his first brush with the flames --and certainly not in good enough shape to be rescuing Jaime only a minute later.

Not saying it was a coincidence, just an overused trope. Two such saves in one battle sequence is just a bit much, don't you think?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> These Five Military Blunders Cost Jaime Lannister Dearly on This Week's Game of Thrones
> 
> Tyrion seemed closer to the battle than I would have thought if he could make out Jamie so clearly.


Tyrion seemed to me that he was standing on a hill quite a distance away, which is why I wonder how the theory that he will be the one to save Jaime will be able to work out. On a side note, wasn't Jaime the only of the Lannister men riding a grey (white) horse? I noticed it because I tend to notice the horses  (duh...lol...btw, I've noticed there are some really nice ones this season! They've outdone themselves. The first season or so they were fairly homely looking) and it seemed to me that as the leader he was putting a big target on his back by standing out so much. You could pick him out a mile away. That said, there were a LOT of grey Dothraki horses and Jaime's grey would have no longer stood out as much once the battle ensued.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> But there would be no point in his being legitimate, or even their child, if there was and is never any proof of it. If the father ever wanted him to be anything other than a bastard, he would have had to hide proof of the birth and/or marriage somewhere. Somewhere it wouldn't come up until the kid was of age (to protect him from people trying to kill him). It was probably supposed to have come up already but something happened to the mechanism to bring it forward.


Well, the father would have had nothing to do with it..he was already dead when Jon was born. It was because he was dead and the Targaryens were defeated that Jon's Mom wanted his existence kept a secret. So there could well be a record of their marriage (assuming it ever happened), but there wouldn't be one of the birth. Bran would then speak to Jon's parentage, and Sam to his legitimacy.


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## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)

Pretty sure most of the Lannister/Tarly army should be dead. Right before the battle, Randall Tarly tells Jaime that (1) all the gold is through the gates and (2) they need to get the rest of the army over the Blackwater rush as the army if the head of the army is ambushed, the tail won't be able to reinforce in time (Jaime then mentions that the army is stretched pretty thin).

Thus, it's clear that only the gold has reached KLs (likely with a vanguard of cavalry) but the rest of the army is still on the road. While Dany only attacks the rear of the army, the Dothraki should be able to ride down the rest pretty easily before they can escape back to KL.

Also, I'm assuming that Jaime falls into the Blackwater Rush which explains why it's so deep.

Finally, it's definitely Bron that pushes him. In the prior scene, we see Bron avoid the dragon fire and then spot a white horse. The rider that saves Jaime is riding a very similar looking white horse.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I watched the scene several times in slo mo and agree it was Bronn who pushed him out of the way. The clothes were the same.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Not to be that person but it's Bronn.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Makes sense. Nothing travels faster than a coach full of gold.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Tyrion seemed to me that he was standing on a hill quite a distance away, which is why I wonder how the theory that he will be the one to save Jaime will be able to work out. On a side note, wasn't Jaime the only of the Lannister men riding a grey (white) horse? I noticed it because I tend to notice the horses  (duh...lol...btw, I've noticed there are some really nice ones this season! They've outdone themselves. The first season or so they were fairly homely looking) and it seemed to me that as the leader he was putting a big target on his back by standing out so much. You could pick him out a mile away. That said, there were a LOT of grey Dothraki horses and Jaime's grey would have no longer stood out as much once the battle ensued.


A fleet of a thousand ships sails around Westeros in one episode, and you question Tyrion teleporting a mile in a few seconds? Have you learned nothing! 

My wife, a fellow rider, also pays more attention to the horses. She even commented on how cool it was the Dothraki were riding standing up.


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## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)




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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Lord Snow said:


> Finally, it's definitely Bron that pushes him. In the prior scene, we see Bron avoid the dragon fire and then spot a white horse. The rider that saves Jaime is riding a very similar looking white horse.





Jstkiddn said:


> I watched the scene several times in slo mo and agree it was Bronn who pushed him out of the way. The clothes were the same.


Someone should probably post some screenshots of that.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Dany, not a chance. She dies, the war they've spent much of the series setting up is over.


I'd have said the same thing about both Ned Stark and Robb Stark at one time. While I would be utterly shocked if Dany doesn't survive until the very end, I never know what to expect from this series. I'm just sayin', the scene made me nervous.

Though, on the other hand, the series did become a lot more predictable with the resurrection of Jon snow, and it does feel like we have a set of fan favorites that will make it to the end.



photoshopgrl said:


> Also am I the only one that thought for a split second Theon was going to try to hug Jon?


No, but I'm surprised Jon didn't kill him on the spot, Sansa be damned. It would have been a fitting end to the miserable character -- jumps off the ship in battle, only to be run through as soon as he reaches land.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

smbaker said:


> I'd have said the same thing about both Ned Stark and Robb Stark at one time. While I would be utterly shocked if Dany doesn't survive until the very end, I never know what to expect from this series. I'm just sayin', the scene made me nervous.


Ned's death WAS the story. It basically started the whole thing and Robb was boring, dull and boring. Did I mention he was boring? He had no story arc.

Dany is the story. She and Jon Snow. That is why she has survived so many close calls and Jon literally gave his life for his people. And got it back.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

getbak said:


> Yeah, when Jon said that the people of the North wouldn't follow a Southern ruler, I expected her to say, "They would, if she was married to their King."


My though was they would follow a Southern ruler if she (and her dragons) had just fought alongside them to defeat the white walkers and the Night King.



LordKronos said:


> I knew Dany was going to get desperate and use a dragon. I predicted last week she was going to get one killed. Damn close this week. I didn't know they were carrying one of those crossbows around with them, but the minute Jamie mentioned it I though "oh crap". When it hit Drogon and he fell, that was a heart wrenching moment. Glad to see he landed and still could serve up some fire, so probably a good chance he's still alright. If it were Viserion or Rhaegal then there'd be some suspense over just how badly it was hurt, but since it's Drogon I'm sure he'll recover, but she'll have to be more careful...especially if Jamie makes it back to Cersei and tells her it was fairly effective and they ramp up production of those crossbows.


I was yelling (mentally, not out loud) for Dany to take Drogon a ways clear of the fight after that first bolt went whizzing past.

At that point there was no pressing need for more dragon fire, and certainly not to come straight down the barrel trough of the scorpion in a 1-on-1 dual of dragon v anti-dragon weapon. Just orbit nearby, but out of range, so you can intervene should it be necessary. (Assuming Dany has that much control once Drogon gets his blood up)

Ah well - at least it is an all too believable dumb decision.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

smbaker said:


> No, but I'm surprised Jon didn't kill him on the spot, Sansa be damned. It would have been a fitting end to the miserable character -- jumps off the ship in battle, only to be run through as soon as he reaches land.


Did Jon believe Theon killed Rickon? Because if he did, he now knows that was not the case.

As far as Bran seeing the future, was it his vision of dragons flying over Kings Landing?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Did Jon believe Theon killed Rickon? Because if he did, he now knows that was not the case.


Jon knows Theon didn't kill Rickon. Jon saw Rickon killed at the Battle of the Bastards.

Regardless, Theon betrayed Robb, he attacked and occupied Winterfell, executed Sir Roderick, etc. At the very least, he should have punched Theon in the face a good four of five times.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> Did Jon believe Theon killed Rickon? Because if he did, he now knows that was not the case.
> 
> As far as Bran seeing the future, was it his vision of dragons flying over Kings Landing?


It is possible that Bran can see potential futures or the future kind of vaguely. He did say he thought she was going to go to King's Landing. Did he "see" that or just suppose? I doubt the Three Eyed Raven does much supposing.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> Why would most people believe him? His family will probably believe. Others? Not so much. I think he will provide this information but I bet that Sam provides the real proof in those rolls he needed to transcribe. That or a witness from the event, like the midwife, will turn up. Maybe both.


Obviously TBD. But I'm guessing the initial revelation will come from Bran. What, they didn't have DNA kits back then?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jonathan_S said:


> My though was they would follow a Southern ruler if she (and her dragons) had just fought alongside them to defeat the white talkers and the Night King.


Yeah, Dany may have a good heart, but she's too stubborn for her own good. The logical thing to do is for her and Jon to work together to secure her throne and the world's safety, and worry about the disposition of the North later.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

smbaker said:


> Jon knows Theon didn't kill Rickon. Jon saw Rickon killed at the Battle of the Bastards.


Not to mention that Theon probably told Sansa about Rickon and Bran, and Sansa told Jon.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> The dagger has to be very important. I think we got that pretty clearly last night.


Between needle, the VS Dagger and her expert fighting skills, I think Arya will have a big part to play fighting off the White Walkers down the road, but I bet that dagger is going to kill at least one Lannister or Lannister ally.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Between needle, the VS Dagger and her expert fighting skills, I think Arya will have a big part to play fighting off the White Walkers down the road, but I bet that dagger is going to kill at least one Lannister or Lannister ally.


I hope it's Cersei and I hope she looks her dead in the eye when she does it.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> I hope it's Cersei and I hope she looks her dead in the eye when she does it.


That will be a "cheer out lout" moment!


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> She was probably glad that Arya was back not just to be reunited with her, but also because of how much Bran had changed. She was hoping to have a more normal familial relationship with Arya, and then found out that she had become a skilled fighter with a hit list. Like the Lannister squad, at first she didn't take that list seriously. But then when Bran referred to it, she started to realize how much her sister had changed.
> 
> When Jon gets back, she'll probably sigh with relief, and think to herself, "Finally, someone normal in the family has returned." And then Bran will stoically tell her that Jon is actually her cousin and half-Targaryen.


And that Jon was killed and is now a zombie.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Didn't Jaime get the money for Bronn from the gold wagon? Do we know how much time passed between that and the statement from Tyrrell about the gold being in KL? Enough to be true?

I feel like the producers beat us over the head with the banker's statement to Cersei: "we'll support you ONLY once we actually get the gold".


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Even in KL, the gold is far away from the bank.


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## stark (Dec 31, 2003)

Dany made a big mistake when Bronn missed with the first bolt from the Scorpion. She should have kept her distance and let the Dothraki deal with the Scorpion. Drogon getting hurt was because she thought that she was invincible.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

stark said:


> Dany made a big mistake when Bronn missed with the first bolt from the Scorpion. She should have kept her distance and let the Dothraki deal with the Scorpion. Drogon getting hurt was because she thought that she was invincible.


One would think she'd have learned her lesson after the Harpies almost killed Drogon but her ego is a bit out of control IMO.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

stark said:


> Dany made a big mistake when Bronn missed with the first bolt from the Scorpion. She should have kept her distance and let the Dothraki deal with the Scorpion. Drogon getting hurt was because she thought that she was invincible.


She should have just come around on him. All the conjecture on Jon Snow being a targaryen and it looks like Dany is a Stark bulling straight ahead.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

She should have stayed far up in the sky, taunting Bronn to fire. And then as soon as he did, she could avoid the bolt and swoop down on him while he was reloading. Instead, she waited to make her attack until she'd given him time to reload.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> She should have stayed far up in the sky, taunting Bronn to fire. And then as soon as he did, she could avoid the bolt and swoop down on him while he was reloading. Instead, she waited to make her attack until she'd given him time to reload.


But then she wouldn't be on the ground for Jamie to charge her and for him to land in the drink.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Apparently, NY Mets pitcher Noah Syndergaard was in this episode as a Lannister army Red Shirt.

Poor Mets pitcher Noah Syndergaard burned alive on "Game of Thrones"

'Game of Thrones' Season 7 Halftime Report: Who's Dead, Who's Alive


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Now THAT was good television.
> 
> Can you create armor for dragons?


 Just have them lie on large piles of gold.



Family said:


> Yes I think they will be captured and after the inevitable anger at his brother, Jamie will be convinced they need to unite against the white walkers. That's why Jamie needed proof Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey.
> 
> Next it will be Cersei to deal with and Jamie will be the one who has to remove her. In not a nice way.


 Interesting thought about Cersei. But I don't think Jamie ever believed Tyrion killed Joffrey. He wouldn't have helped Tyrion escape.



BitbyBlit said:


> I don't think Sam would even want to be a lord if he were allowed, let alone is dying to become one.
> 
> The only thing better than being a maester of the Night's Watch for him might be being an archmaester in the Citadel. And even then, only for the access to the books. I think he wants to be more connected with the world than most of the maesters there.


Except, he could marry...


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, Dany may have a good heart, but she's too stubborn for her own good. The logical thing to do is for her and Jon to work together to secure her throne and the world's safety, and worry about the disposition of the North later.


She does seem more stubborn and big-headed since she arrived at Dragonstone. Perhaps some of that is the feeling that she's fulfilling her birthright or whatever. [ETA:] All of the other lands and peoples she's conquered were merely a means to an end, whereas Westeros is the kingdom she's been told she (or her brother) was destined to rule since childhood.

But also, remember that Jon is essentially the first "hostile" Westerosi lord that she has had direct contact with. She may feel that if she backs down or shows weakness with him, that it would set a bad precedent for the rest of the nobility when she has to deal with them.


----------



## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There will never be a paper trail for Jon's parentage. That would have defeated the whole purpose of the secrecy.


You sure about that? They did just put Sam on "old scroll detail" for the next episode or two.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Legion said:


> You sure about that? They did just put Sam on "old scroll detail" for the next episode or two.


He could find something else important. Old scrolls might be older than just the current generation.

I'm with Rob, I think the only people who knew about Jon's parentage were Ned Stark and Howland Reed. Why would they choose to document the birth?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Legion said:


> You sure about that? They did just put Sam on "old scroll detail" for the next episode or two.


As I suggested, that might be to find the marriage. Then you have Bran to prove the birth (assuming he can take others back in time with him).


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Didn't Jaime get the money for Bronn from the gold wagon? Do we know how much time passed between that and the statement from Tyrrell about the gold being in KL? Enough to be true?


If those were the grain wagons the army was escorting then yes, there should be plenty of time.

Jamie gets the gold for Bronn out of (one of?) the gold wagon. 
Jamie then sends Bronn off with the Tarlys to encourage farmers to give up their grain, and the soldiers to finish harvesting the standing grain.
(not shown) Jamie apparently sends the gold wagon(s) immediately (presumably with part of the army; maybe the cavalry) off to Kings Landing, post haste, so the Iron Bank can get paid.
(not shown) Bronn spends some non-trivial amount of time (figure at least a handful of days) _motivating _people in the conquered Tyrell lands to hand over and load their grain for transport.

Only once that's done could the rest of the army, with seized grain supplies in tow, start marching for Kings Landing. So the force we see attacked could have quite easily been at least half a week behind the gold; and up to a fortnight wouldn't really surprise me.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

madscientist said:


> I agree about the ending: that was basically a creek and Jamie is riding his horse through a foot or so of water, then he's knocked off sideways and he's sinking like it was Loch Ness...?!?!
> 
> Still, loved everything about this episode. I'm sad that we have so few left but it's great how quickly they're forging ahead with the story.


lol yes I was going to say the same thing, there is no way that where they fell would have been deeper than like 1 foot of water, if it was deep enough to even cover them, then all they should need to do is stand up, not sink into the abyss.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

gossamer88 said:


> I found it strange how Baelish admired Arya's skill and not Sansa. You would think he'd be the one afraid.


i had the impression sansa was more jealous of arya's training than anything, seeing how well arya could protect herself, as they'd traveled down such different paths - sansa trying to be the "good" daughter and marry into a proper family, with arya throwing that aside for training and the ability to get all the revenge sansa wishes she could unleash herself.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Obviously TBD. But I'm guessing the initial revelation will come from Bran. What, they didn't have DNA kits back then?


Yes, I believe that Bran will say it, and first, but there will be disbelief until there is more convincing proof.


----------



## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> lol yes I was going to say the same thing, there is no way that where they fell would have been deeper than like 1 foot of water, if it was deep enough to even cover them, then all they should need to do is stand up, not sink into the abyss.


Not necessarily. It could be shallow up to a point, then suddenly drop off. Although I think you'd see the drop off point since they fell right near the horses.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

mwhip said:


> Bran is useless. What is the point of that kid? He is adding nothing.


He is Jacob from "Lost." Omniscient character who doesn't tell anyone squat.

You think maybe your sisters have a right to know Jon is your cousin?


----------



## Shagger (Nov 2, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I was amused during the Arya-Brienne tussle how much Arya looked and moved like her former tormentor in Braavos (did she ever get a name?).


A girl has no name...


----------



## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)

When Jon meets Bran



LordKronos said:


> Someone should probably post some screenshots of that.


Here's the horse that Bronn looked at after he dodged the flame earlier. This is likely the same horse in the scenes where someone saved Jamie
http://i.imgur.com/V0JG1Yn.jpg

No face to be seen, but those fingerless gloves? We've seen them before.
http://i.imgur.com/P1uxhkv.jpg

Bronn's hands.
http://i.imgur.com/tsQgzu6.jpg

Look at that outline.
http://i.imgur.com/oGU8HIH.jpg

That's Bronn.
http://i.imgur.com/1fcpbFQ.jpg

And we saw Jaime knocked into the water thanks to a heroic act from Bronn, with Jamie sinking much faster (His heavy armor and golden hand were weighing him down and Jaime seemed to make no move to free himself from drowning as the screen faded to black.). Since Bronn was the one who intervened when Jaime was about to get himself roasted alive by Drogon, we can guess that the sellsword will also rescue Jaime from drowning.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

How is there any question that it's Bronn? I mean who else would it be?

Also at this point I'm not sure there is a castle large enough for Jamie to offer him.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

smbaker said:


> He could find something else important. Old scrolls might be older than just the current generation.
> 
> I'm with Rob, I think the only people who knew about Jon's parentage were Ned Stark and Howland Reed. Why would they choose to document the birth?


But then why would it matter? Notice that no attention has been paid to Robert Baratheon's bastards. Why? No one can prove they are his. If it can't be proved Jon is their child, he has no claim to anything.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Lord Snow said:


> Here's the horse that Bronn looked at after he dodged the flame earlier. This is likely the same horse in the scenes where someone saved Jamie
> http://i.imgur.com/V0JG1Yn.jpg
> 
> No face to be seen, but those fingerless gloves? We've seen them before.
> ...


Zoom.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> But then why would it matter? Notice that no attention has been paid to Robert Baratheon's bastards. Why? No one can prove they are his. If it can't be proved Jon is their child, he has no claim to anything.


Actually, Robert's bastards were all killed back in Season 2 (or was it S1?). Except the one, and he seems to have dropped off the radar...


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> How is there any question that it's Bronn? I mean who else would it be?
> 
> Also at this point I'm not sure there is a castle large enough for Jamie to offer him.


Once you go back and look it's clear its Bronn. But in the moment, without rewatching and frame by frame it's pretty much a blur. I've seen people wonder if it was Dickon saving Jamie again. It wasn't but maybe he'll fish Jamie out of the water next episode.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I subscribe to the GoT YouTube channel. They just posted this, pretty amazing and an incredible amout of work that went into last night's battle.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> But then why would it matter? Notice that no attention has been paid to Robert Baratheon's bastards. Why? No one can prove they are his. If it can't be proved Jon is their child, he has no claim to anything.


Sigh.

Sam finds a record of the marriage.

Bran takes Dany back to the birth.

Dany then knows that Jon is the legitimate Targaryen heir.

What she does with that knowledge (hell, what Jon does with that knowledge) is what makes the rest of the story past that point...interesting.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> Actually, Robert's bastards were all killed back in Season 2 (or was it S1?). Except the one, and he seems to have dropped off the radar...


My point exactly. Why is he off the radar? Because he doesn't matter. He doesn't matter because there is no way to prove who he really is.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sigh.
> 
> Sam finds a record of the marriage.
> 
> ...


Dany kills Bran and carries on.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sigh.
> 
> Sam finds a record of the marriage.
> 
> ...


Sigh. That's a possibility. One of many. Why is that more possible than finding some birth document or person who witnessed the birth to proves who Jon is? Why would Dany even believe that whatever Bran might show her was real? At least a document or a live witness seems a little more legit. Or at least having all of those things would seem more convincing.


----------



## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)




----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I don't know why, but I just can't envision Jon Snow on the Iron Throne. It doesn't seem like something he'd want or would be good at. So I have to think that the reveal of his parentage will play a different role than simply making him the rightful heir of the Targaryan claim to the throne.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I've always thought that sitting on an Iron Throne would be a PITA!


----------



## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

MacThor said:


> He is Jacob from "Lost." Omniscient character who doesn't tell anyone squat.
> 
> You think maybe your sisters have a right to know Jon is your cousin?


Don't you think Jon ought to be the first to know?

As for Jaime, I think this is a possible scenario:
1. He and Bronn are captured. Dany's forces seem to fully control the field and they know where he went in to the water. I don't think he can escape.
2. Dany informs Cersei that she will execute Jaime if she does not surrender the throne.
3. Cersei tells Dany to perform anatomically unlikely acts upon herself.
4. Jaime finally realizes that Cersei's "love" for him is simply a facet of her egomania. He abandons her at that moment, just as she has abandoned him. He then has no choice but to blame her, directly or indirectly, for the fates of Tommen, Tyrion, and Tywin, at the least, and hold her accountable for all of her atrocities. This frees him to throw in with his brother Tyrion, or at least to stop acting against him.
5. This sets up Jaime for a role to play in Cersei's demise ... either an active role, in which he kills her, or indirectly, in which he allows her to be killed when he could have stopped it. 
6. Maybe Bran gets to kill him afterwards. Or he dies defending one or more Starks.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't know why, but I just can't envision Jon Snow on the Iron Throne. It doesn't seem like something he'd want or would be good at. So I have to think that the reveal of his parentage will play a different role than simply making him the rightful heir of the Targaryan claim to the throne.


Same. Jon doesn't really want to be king. It's not his ultimate dream for life. He's doing it out of duty.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Sam isn't going to find a birth or marriage document. He is going to find some ancient wisdom that helps in the white walker battle.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't know why, but I just can't envision Jon Snow on the Iron Throne. It doesn't seem like something he'd want or would be good at. So I have to think that the reveal of his parentage will play a different role than simply making him the rightful heir of the Targaryan claim to the throne.


He's already said as much himself. He's a natural leader, but he's not a politician and he doesn't want to be. Meanwhile, Dany so far hasn't proven herself to be a particularly brilliant fighter or tactician. So why not a partnership marriage, where she does the everyday tasks of governance, while he goes out and fights the battles and generally keeps the peace?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I don't know. If the end game is a love story between Jon and Dany, who had never even met each other for the majority of the story, that just seems kind of silly. And a convenience marriage just so they can rule better seems even less of a satisfying ending to this huge epic story.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Jon is Dany's nephew ... I know the Targaryans were (in)famous for marrying their siblings, but I can't see either of them going for it once they find out Jon's parentage.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I can totally see Dany going for it. She was brought up thinking she was going to marry her Brother and being ok with that because that's what Targaryans did. Jon wasn't raised that way. He was, however, raised in a family where the children were brought up knowing that they wouldn't marry for love, they would marry to further the alliance of their house. That's what he would be doing, too, but for the kingdom and not just his house and perhaps with someone he has fallen for. The writing seems to be leaning this way, in spite of their blood relationship.


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

How close do you think Littlefinger could get to Cersei?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Maybe a dumb question but... Arya can do the face changing thing but does her height and weight or peoples' perception of her height and weight also change? What's the point of switching to, let's say, Jamie Lannister's face when her body remains at 5 foot tall? this may have been brought up before and I forgot.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't know why, but I just can't envision Jon Snow on the Iron Throne. It doesn't seem like something he'd want or would be good at. So I have to think that the reveal of his parentage will play a different role than simply making him the rightful heir of the Targaryan claim to the throne.


My theory was (and for now remains) that he will use that knowledge to leverage Dany into accepting him as King in the North, while recognizing her as Queen Everywhere Else.


DUDE_NJX said:


> Dany kills Bran and carries on.


That would be a possibility. But I think she's too honorable, or at least honorable enough to accept an alternative that gives her what she wants (mostly) without having to lie about who she is and who Jon is to do it.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Maybe a dumb question but... Arya can do the face changing thing but does her height and weight or peoples' perception of her height and weight also change? What's the point of switching to, let's say, Jamie Lannister's face when her body remains at 5 foot tall? this may have been brought up before and I forgot.


When she was wearing Walder Frey's face, she looked just like him - height, weight, everything. So whatever the magic is, it works on more than just the face.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> When she was wearing Walder Frey's face, she looked just like him - height, weight, everything.


Well, technically, we don't know about the weight. When she was Walder, she could have been 6 feet tall and still only weighed 87 pounds.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> My theory was (and for now remains) that he will use that knowledge to leverage Dany into accepting him as King in the North, while recognizing her as Queen Everywhere Else.


I don't see it. Jon doesn't want to be King in the North. He feels like it's his duty and he's the only one that fully appreciates the threat from north of the Wall. And he knows the rest of the people in the North don't trust anyone from the South. But if Dany and her dragons were to help protect the North and defeat the Night King, I think then the Northerners would be accepting of Dany as Queen, and I think Jon would be thrilled to hand off those responsibilities and duties if he felt the person he is handing them off to is just and fair and has the support of the other Northern Houses.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, technically, we don't know about the weight. When she was Walder, she could have been 6 feet tall and still only weighed 87 pounds.


Well, perception of weight. She looked just the same as Walder Frey did, but you are right. The chemical makeup of her body could have changed so that she appeared to be 6' tall but only weighed 6 ounces.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Lord Snow said:


> When Jon meets Bran
> 
> Here's the horse that Bronn looked at after he dodged the flame earlier. This is likely the same horse in the scenes where someone saved Jamie
> http://i.imgur.com/V0JG1Yn.jpg
> ...


Wow....you went to all that trouble? You could have just pointed me to my own pictures here:

Game of Thrones - S07E04 The Spoils of War 8/6/2017

Sorry you didn't get my joke and wasted your time. I posted those pictures on page 2 of the thread and made all the same observations the 2 of you made. I guess I should have just said smeek!


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm going to have to go back and rewatch the whole series during the break. They are referencing things I don't remember from earlier seasons and I want to be ready for the final few episodes.

This was an excellent episode!! On the edge of my seat through that whole battle. And I wasn't really sure who I wanted to win.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I'm going to have to go back and rewatch the whole series during the break. They are referencing things I don't remember from earlier seasons and I want to be ready for the final few episodes.
> 
> This was an excellent episode!! On the edge of my seat through that whole battle. And I wasn't really sure who I wanted to win.


It's amazing the things you pick up on the second viewing. For one thing, you've finally figured out who everyone is, where they're from and how they figure in to the whole scheme of things. The first watch through you are struggling to remember which dirty, scraggly looking white guy is from which family/city. There are so many they are hard to keep straight at first.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I'd say when a faceless one puts on another's face, everything about them becomes that other person. Face, height, weight, voice, etc. That's the magic part of it. Otherwise, they would never convince anyone they were someone else.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> It's amazing the things you pick up on the second viewing. For one thing, you've finally figured out who everyone is, where they're from and how they figure in to the whole scheme of things. The first watch through you are struggling to remember which dirty, scraggly looking white guy is from which family/city. There are so many they are hard to keep straight at first.


And so many of the names are similar.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> I'd say when a faceless one puts on another's face, everything about them becomes that other person. Face, height, weight, voice, etc. That's the magic part of it. Otherwise, they would never convince anyone they were someone else.


I was also going to post that there's no reason not to think that there's some magic involved since we've pretty much established it exists in their universe.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

JoeyJoJo said:


> How close do you think Littlefinger could get to Cersei?


Not very, once he threw in with House Stark at the Battle of the Bastards. The Boltons were her Wardens of the North.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Just saw on FB that a bunch of people think Jon Snow did the cave drawings. The thought crossed my mind, I'll admit.


----------



## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

I figured it out! Arya will go to King's Landing, kill Cersei, then take her place and announce they are ending the war and teaming up with Dany to fight the white walkers, everyone will get killed in the battle except Arya, so she'll wind up on the iron throne, but she'll have to wear Cersei's face the rest of her life .


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Here is something completely out of left field...I had to watch the scene a second time today to confirm:

When Arya is practicing with Brienne and it's over. Sansa leaves and only LittleFinger is left looking down on Arya. As Arya looks up, the music is playing 3 notes. Very distinctive notes from Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet.

It must be a coincidence. But I heard it every time.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> I'm going to have to go back and rewatch the whole series during the break. They are referencing things I don't remember from earlier seasons and I want to be ready for the final few episodes.
> 
> This was an excellent episode!! On the edge of my seat through that whole battle. And I wasn't really sure who I wanted to win.


Ditto. That's my plan too. Maybe 1 a week. There will be 67 episodes after this season, but we don't know when Season 8 will start, I think it'll be more than a year.

-smak-


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Gee, I don't know if this is off topic or not, but this was an amazing episode - one among many for this show.

In the annals of television, I have never experienced a show this good (and that includes the original Star 
Trek - which, as a kid, had me glued to my TV for almost three years). 

It combines the best elements of sci-fi, fantasy, and mystery in a way that I don't think I will ever see again in my lifetime.

I'm often left at the end of the viewing wondering, is that it? Isn't there more? And then I look at the clock and an hour has flown by....I loved the Lord of the Rings trilogy, but this I think, is better.

I'm a classic movie fan - my favorites are On the Waterfront, the Maltese Falcon and LA Confidential.
But this, this is something really special.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Anubys said:


> Why? the gold made it King's Landing.
> 
> Oh, I thought it was wrong of Dany to destroy all that food instead of capturing it. She needs food as well with Winter being here and all...


Please keep in mind that the Gold must make it from King's Landing to the Iron Bank in Bravos (?).....a trip perhaps not without some peril......


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

allan said:


> I've always thought that sitting on an Iron Throne would be a PITA!


So to speak...


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Hey can someone that read the books and is pretty good with their memory of things msg me please. I have a question about the wall.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

mm2margaret said:


> Please keep in mind that the Gold must make it from King's Landing to the Iron Bank in Bravos (?).....a trip perhaps not without some peril......


I would think once that wagon was handed over to the Iron Bank representative, that it's then their problem to get it back to Bravvos.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I really thought we might lose Jaime when he was charging the dragon (I mean really, at least _throw_ the spear rather than jousting!) until I remembered that he's the only character who heard Oleanna's confession: he can't be killed off until he tells someone, most likely Cersei.



NorthAlabama said:


> i had the impression sansa was more jealous of arya's training than anything, seeing how well arya could protect herself, as they'd traveled down such different paths - sansa trying to be the "good" daughter and marry into a proper family, with arya throwing that aside for training and the ability to get all the revenge sansa wishes she could unleash herself.


 I actually wondered if Sansa wasn't worried that she be "deposed" as the ruler of the North by Arya since Arya is such a good fighter. Not that Arya would take over but that the other lords would prefer to follow Arya instead. Although, I guess Sansa is older and this ain't a democracy.



vertigo235 said:


> Also at this point I'm not sure there is a castle large enough for Jamie to offer him.


 After Bronn pushed Jaime into the river I said "welp, that's _two_ castles now!"



mm2margaret said:


> Please keep in mind that the Gold must make it from King's Landing to the Iron Bank in Bravos (?).....a trip perhaps not without some peril......


 I'm quite confident that in this episode Mycroft said that as soon as the gold entered King's Landing the debt is paid. Once Cersei delivers it to the bank's representative I would assume it's their problem how they get it back to the bank. Heck, maybe they'll just turn around and lend it back to Cersei again (at least a goodly part of it). She's sure going to need it now that all her supplies have been burnt up by Drogon!


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)




----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> Wow....you went to all that trouble? You could have just pointed me to my own pictures here:
> 
> Game of Thrones - S07E04 The Spoils of War 8/6/2017
> 
> Sorry you didn't get my joke and wasted your time. I posted those pictures on page 2 of the thread and made all the same observations the 2 of you made. I guess I should have just said smeek!


Sure you say that, but we all know Brann took you back in time and you posted those later and just make it _look_ like Lord Snow smeeked you.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

BeanMeScot said:


> But there would be no point in his being legitimate, or even their child, if there was and is never any proof of it. If the father ever wanted him to be anything other than a bastard, he would have had to hide proof of the birth and/or marriage somewhere. Somewhere it wouldn't come up until the kid was of age (to protect him from people trying to kill him). It was probably supposed to have come up already but something happened to the mechanism to bring it forward.
> 
> It's quite possible the only reason Bran could be taken to the past is because he was destined to be the next TER.


Not sure if previously mentioned, but Jon can only be illegitimate as Rhaegar Targaryen was already married to Elia Martell (who had bore him two children, all of whom were killed by The Mountain) when he kidnapped/ran away with Lysa Stark and eventually got her pregnant (I think I got the names right).


----------



## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> As I suggested, that might be to find the marriage. Then you have Bran to prove the birth (assuming he can take others back in time with him).


Its not possible for Rhaegar Targaryen and Lysa Stark to have been married as he was already married to Elia Martell.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Its not possible for Rhaegar Targaryen and Lysa Stark to have been married as he was already married to Elia Martell.


Polygamy, while not common, was practiced in Westeros.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Polygamy, while not common, was practiced in Westeros.


Yes, I forgot that, though its not made clear though descendants of such marriages and their lineage, etc.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Polygamy, while not common, was practiced in Westeros.
> 
> 
> PSU_Sudzi said:
> ...


I think it's a given that if they were married (AKA R+L=1), Jon will be looked upon as a rightful Targaryen. No one will be arguing the details.

While it's an interesting twist either way, if they were married adds some real spice to the story.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Not sure if previously mentioned, but Jon can only be illegitimate as Rhaegar Targaryen was already married to Elia Martell (who had bore him two children, all of whom were killed by The Mountain) when he kidnapped/ran away with Lysa Stark and eventually got her pregnant (I think I got the names right).


Lyanna Stark.

Lysa was Cat's sister.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

answering a couple of old posts without quoting:

1. The Children of the Forest did create the Night King to fight the First Men. Once they realized their mistake, they teamed with the First Men in the battle of the living against the dead. I believe Bran was told this when he made it to the cave of the 3-eyed raven.

2. It is entirely possible to go from beach to 30 feet of water in a matter of a foot. I experienced this myself on the banks of the Nile, for example.

3. I'm not sure what I saw, but there was someone who may have been Papa Tarley burning. If they meant for us to be sure, they didn't do a good job of it.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't know why, but I just can't envision Jon Snow on the Iron Throne. It doesn't seem like something he'd want or would be good at. So I have to think that the reveal of his parentage will play a different role than simply making him the rightful heir of the Targaryan claim to the throne.


I think Jon has made it pretty clear he's not really interested in being King in the North either. He's doing it so they can unite and fight back the White Walkers.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay something isn't sitting right for me. In the caves Jon shows Dany that the children of the forest and the first men fought together against the white walkers but we already know that the children of the forest created the white walkers _because _of the first men. So I guess they rallied together after the fact and made cave drawings about it? Seems odd to me.





Anubys said:


> answering a couple of old posts without quoting:
> 1. The Children of the Forest did create the Night King to fight the First Men. Once they realized their mistake, they teamed with the First Men in the battle of the living against the dead. I believe Bran was told this when he made it to the cave of the 3-eyed raven.


Dang it. I was carrying that quote for the last ten pages then you have to answer the question right before I get to? That is seriously rude.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

madscientist said:


> I remembered that he's the only character who heard Oleanna's confession: he can't be killed off until he tells someone, most likely Cersei.


Yeah, but will that disclosure that Olenna killed Joffrey really change anything with Cersei? Tyrion shipped Marcella to Dorne in the first place and killed Tywin. (seems everyone's forgotten that) She'll still want him dead.

And I'm not expecting all sunshine and roses when Jamie and Tyrion are re-united. I think Jamie wants to avenge the death of his father.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> That was a LOT. I was so stressed during that battle. I was literally pacing my living room saying "not Bronn! not Jaime!" the entire time.


I was the opposite. I'm ready for Jaime and Bronn to die.

I think the fact they've greatly slowed down the pace of killing off characters is a flaw in the story. We're getting to typical fairy tale stuff where no one important dies.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> I knew Dany was going to get desperate and use a dragon. I predicted last week she was going to get one killed. Damn close this week.


Damn close?

It's like a mosquito bite. Not a big deal at all.

Dany has to use the dragons. It's not desperate, it's a show of power. It should have been done within days of reaching Westeros. I agree with Jon and Tyrion that torching innocents isn't the best approach, so torching this army was perfect.

I do think Dany needs to be a bit more strategic with her dragon attacks. Seems she went after the wagons really quickly when she could have done a tad more to help her ground forces first. And honestly, the way all these people fight battles she really should just approach from the rear and torch the commanders who sit off to the side and watch the fighting.

I assume they'll get better.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Damn close?
> 
> It's like a mosquito bite. Not a big deal at all.


Well, it knocked him out of the sky, so pretty big deal. At that point he was awfully vulnerable; only the fact that the surviving Lannister troops had been completely routed at that point prevented them from launching a concerted attack.

So, not damn close. But still a pretty big deal, with survival being partly a matter of luck. (And of course Dany's survival was even more a matter of luck...she could very easily have been killed, and almost was.)


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, it knocked him out of the sky, so pretty big deal. At that point he was awfully vulnerable...


two words...dragon armour.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> It is possible that Bran can see potential futures or the future kind of vaguely. He did say he thought she was going to go to King's Landing. Did he "see" that or just suppose? I doubt the Three Eyed Raven does much supposing.


Yeah. It is possible that Bran knows Arya will eventually end up in King's Landing, but isn't sure exactly when or how.

We know from Hodor and Ned that information can be communicated from the future to the past. We also know that Bran's predecessor knew that Bran was meant to take his place. So I would think that Bran has some insight into the future, albeit not to the same level of fidelity as the information he has of the present and the past.



dtle said:


> Not to mention that Theon probably told Sansa about Rickon and Bran, and Sansa told Jon.


We know for sure that Theon told Sansa about Bran and Rickon. We didn't actually see Sansa tell Jon about that conversation, but there's no reason to think she didn't. And regardless, Jon already knew that Bran was alive from Sam, so he had long been aware that Theon hadn't killed Bran, and likely had concluded, if not confirmed, that he hadn't killed Rickon either.

I thought the scene between Jon and Theon was awkward. It felt like Jon saying, "What you did for her is the only reason I'm not killing you," was more of a message to the viewers than to Theon. I would have preferred him to have simply grabbed Theon as he did, and then let him go without any words having been exchanged.



tlc said:


> Except, he could marry...


That's a good point. I think being able to marry Gilly would be the one thing that could motivate Sam to give up the Night's Watch and become a lord if he were to be given that opportunity.



mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Just saw on FB that a bunch of people think Jon Snow did the cave drawings. The thought crossed my mind, I'll admit.


Unless Sam read about it and then had a conversation with Jon off-screen, I don't think he knew about the alliance between the Children and the First Men until he saw those drawings. So I doubt it was even possible for him to have faked them.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Just saw on FB that a bunch of people think Jon Snow did the cave drawings. The thought crossed my mind, I'll admit.


those looked like rock carvings to me, not drawings - unless jon had a team with chisels nearby, i highly doubt it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> We know for sure that Theon told Sansa about Bran and Rickon. We didn't actually see Sansa tell Jon about that conversation, but there's no reason to think she didn't. And regardless, Jon already knew that Bran was alive from Sam, so he had long been aware that Theon hadn't killed Bran, and likely had concluded, if not confirmed, that he hadn't killed Rickon either.


Plus Jon watched Rickon die, so he was probably pretty sure Theon hadn't killed him.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> I think the fact they've greatly slowed down the pace of killing off characters is a flaw in the story. We're getting to typical fairy tale stuff where no one important dies.


I feel the same way - but I guess that means none of the following characters killed off in the last 5 episodes are deemed important:
The Sand Snakes (presumably all three by now)
Olenna Tyrell
Queen Margaery
King Tommen
The High Sparrow
Mace Tyrell
Kevan Lannister
Loras Tyrell
Lancel Lannister
Septa Unella
Walder Frey
All of House Frey


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)




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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

astrohip said:


> I agree Jaime will be saved by Tyrion. He saw him fall in the water, and no way he lets his brother drown.


Tyrion doesn't strike me as a very fast runner. Of course Jaime will be saved because this show is predictable.

But how does it happen? I don't think Tryion gets there in time. And trying to tell someone "Go get him out of the river!" seems unlikely to work. Maybe he wore his inflatable water wings to this battle.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> two words...dragon armour.


Or maybe Dany could use the other two dragons like Medieval AWACS to look for Scorpion-like threats from the ground.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Winter is a weird disappointment. There are flurries in the north, and high garden is glorious and sunny. So even if the dragon just destroyed food, that'll help with the siege. But "Winter is here" is seemingly no different than "winter is coming". Well, except for the white walkers.


Exactly. I'd just come home from work and be all like "Ok Family, pack it up. We're moving to Ulthos".



Look at the map.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

cheesesteak said:


> Or maybe Dany could use the other two dragons like Medieval AWACS to look for Scorpion-like threats from the ground.


they could employ the velociraptor approach - while one distracts the scorpion from the front, the other two move in from each side.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Not to be that person but it's Bronn.


Nothing someone says before the "but" really counts.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

uncdrew said:


> Nothing someone says before the "but" really counts.


...and "however" is simply "but" in a tuxedo...


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, it knocked him out of the sky, so pretty big deal. At that point he was awfully vulnerable; only the fact that the surviving Lannister troops had been completely routed at that point prevented them from launching a concerted attack.
> 
> So, not damn close. But still a pretty big deal, with survival being partly a matter of luck. (And of course Dany's survival was even more a matter of luck...she could very easily have been killed, and almost was.)


So the dragon couldn't have been more than 200 feet or so from the ground, and he recovered in plenty of time to land gracefully, ready to fight. He kept Dany safe the entire time.

It surprised him. Didn't hurt him much. He's a dragon. Bronn hit him with a toothpick.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Saturn_V said:


> I think Jamie wants to avenge the death of his father.


I don't think Jaime is happy about it but wanting revenge? I don't think so.



uncdrew said:


> Nothing someone says before the "but" really counts.


Okay then IT'S BRONN BINCH


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't think Jaime is happy about it but wanting revenge? I don't think so.
> 
> Okay then IT'S BRONN BINCH




I was quoting Ned Stark.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I don't think anyone is upset enough about Tywin's death to truly hold it against Tyrion. Tywin didn't have much nice to say about anyone.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> I was quoting Ned Stark.


I'm aware


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Jaime and Bron should be a tad crispy, eh?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I got too close to my grill this weekend and have burns to show for it.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Jaime and Bron should be a tad crispy, eh?


That sure must be one big drop off! The horses are standing ankle deep in water.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Haha. Yep.

Watch out for that third step... it's a doozy!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> I got too close to my grill this weekend and have burns to show for it.


Those grill marks on your buttocks will fade in time.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Damn close?
> 
> It's like a mosquito bite. Not a big deal at all.


Mosquito bite? The dragon fell quite a ways, almost all the way to the ground before it recovered. If the dragon had been flying at only half that height, it would have crashed into the ground before recovering. That likely would have at least severely injured the dragon, but more importantly would likely have been a fatal fall for Dany. And the bolt seemed to have essentially hit the dragon in sort of the shoulder area. I could imagine other areas being even more damaging. What if it had hit him in the open mouth (which is what I was expecting of that scene the way it was timed) or in the neck?

And isn't Drogon significantly bigger than the other 2 (or did they catch up)? They might be even more vulnerable than he is. Now imagine an army having a dozen of scorpions hitting the dragon multiple times. And once the dragon is on the ground imagine if they were able to continue hitting the dragon. Also, although they might not know what dragons are susceptible to, they could try to use a poisoned bolt.

No, I'm sorry but mosquito bite isn't even remotely accurate (unless you've got much bigger mosquitoes than where I live), and I still contend that it was damn close.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I agree. We don't know if in his injured state that he's even still capable of flight.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

He was startled. He'd never even experienced pain before.

He'll be fine.

This isn't Smaug, that was taken down by a slightly larger than normal crossbow dart shot from a make-shift wind-up bow thinga-majiggie.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

It looked like a mosquito bite, but from Drogon's reaction, it wasn't (unless it was an Iowa mosquito  ). It's hard to tell how badly he's hurt, but it's clear that even big dragons aren't invulnerable. And, as was already said, Dany is far more vulnerable. A crash landing that Drogon could walk away from could easily have killed Dany. She got lucky.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

The distance fell argument is silly. He corrected before hitting the ground so wouldn't have made any difference how far. See I can imagine how things work also


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> He was startled. He'd never even experienced pain before.


Except that time the Harpies plowed him with spears.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> two words...dragon armour.


Dragon armour? Their skin is like armor, but of course armor never provides 100% protection. We could add more armor, of course, but there's a good reason why we don't cover most military aircraft with armor, and that same reason would apply to dragons.



JohnB1000 said:


> The distance fell argument is silly. He corrected before hitting the ground so wouldn't have made any difference how far. See I can imagine how things work also


Huh? Are you suggesting he just waited until he was close to the ground to recover? Was he doing that just for dramatic effect just to tease the Lannisters? Or is it like those movies/shows where the engine stalls and the pilot just lets it fall...wait...wait....and then right before it hits the ground THEN he fires it up and recovers at the last second?

I'm not sure that's quite how it worked with Drogon here. If he was at 500 feet and fell 350 feet before recovering, then I think it's fairly reasonable to say that had he been at 250 feet at that time, he would have "recovered" at -100 feet.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The spear looked puny compared to the dragon and it appeared like Dany wasn't going to have such a hard time pulling it out all by her 120 lb self. They should have made the spear look more formidable if it was going to inflict severe damage to a dragon. I'm sure that the Dothraki dude that was impaled by one doesn't share my opinion.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> The spear looked puny compared to the dragon and it appeared like Dany wasn't going to have such a hard time pulling it out all by her 120 lb self. They should have made the spear look more formidable if it was going to inflict severe damage to a dragon. I'm sure that the Dothraki dude that was impaled by one doesn't share my opinion.


I'm guessing it was hard to remove due to the tip of it.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Jon Snow sure wants a dragon to fight the WW. I haven't seen any evidence of even archery. One dragon and that threat would be gone.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

allan said:


> It looked like a mosquito bite, but from Drogon's reaction, it wasn't (unless it was an Iowa mosquito  ). It's hard to tell how badly he's hurt, but it's clear that even big dragons aren't invulnerable. And, as was already said, Dany is far more vulnerable. A crash landing that Drogon could walk away from could easily have killed Dany. She got lucky.


What happens when you stub your toe hard. You stumble and grab it and catch yourself before you hit the ground.

Point is that sudden pain that does not result in any real injury can cause a large reaction. Not saying Drogon is perfectly fine but it is not a stretch to reason that he could be even though he "stumbled" in the air.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Jon Snow sure wants a dragon to fight the WW. I haven't seen any evidence of even archery. One dragon and that threat would be gone.


We don't know if the WWs are susceptible to fire, but the dragons will surely be hell against the army of wights.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

drogon appeared to be successful turning the bones of queen cerci's army into ashes.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

heySkippy said:


> We don't know if the WWs are susceptible to fire, but the dragons will surely be hell against the army of wights.


I just rewatched Hardhome today. One of the WW's walks through a building that is one fire while Jon and one of the free folk are looking for the bag of dragon glass. I don't know if the WW came in direct contact with the fire, but he didn't seem too worried walking around in a burning building.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Except that time the Harpies plowed him with spears.


That wasn't pain.

Bronn had mechanical assistance. And it stung a tad. The Harpies throwing a spear at him? That was nothing.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

allan said:


> It looked like a mosquito bite, but from Drogon's reaction, it wasn't (unless it was an Iowa mosquito  ). It's hard to tell how badly he's hurt, but it's clear that even big dragons aren't invulnerable. And, as was already said, Dany is far more vulnerable. A crash landing that Drogon could walk away from could easily have killed Dany. She got lucky.


I do believe they'll kill at least one dragon in this series. Because it's gotten predictable. Perhaps they'll kill two. I think the White Walkers take one down and humans take one down. Drogon is probably the survivor, but perhaps they'll be less predictable and have the big guy bite it.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> What happens when you stub your toe hard. You stumble and grab it and catch yourself before you hit the ground.


 That's an interesting comparison.

When you stub your toe hard enough to trip, you lose your balance and begin to fall until you are able to get your feet back underneath you (on the ground) and restore your balance. But if that happens right as you are walking up to a counter, chances are you are slamming your face on the counter before your feet restore your balance.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> That wasn't pain.
> 
> Bronn had mechanical assistance. And it stung a tad. The Harpies throwing a spear at him? That was nothing.


Huh? I seem to recall Drogon flying up onto that hill/mountain and just lying there like he was suffering in agonizing pain. Which is why Dany wandered off on foot and got captured.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

If dragons are cold-blooded, they will not do at all well up North...


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> If dragons are cold-blooded, they will not do at all well up North...


They have a way to stay warm.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Bran's wheelchair moved through the snow better than I expected for a version 1.0 model.

I wonder how many ravenmails the Iron Bank sent Cersei over the last year looking for their money.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I found this passage in an article that was WAAAAAAYYY over my head:


> *Eric asks, "I'm trying not to be annoyed at the show for retconning mature dragon scales to not be invulnerable. Or is it because it was his underside?"*
> 
> [The Maester:] I am also annoyed! When the dragon Meraxes was downed during the First Dornish War, it was because the scorpion bolt the defenders of Hellholt fired at him took the beast in the eye. Big Crossbow is dumb, guys! In a world built on thousands of years of meticulously crafted shared history, it makes very little sense that Qyburn _(Qyburn?!)_ would be the first dude _ever_ to be like, "What if a crossbow, but bigger?"


Ask the Maester: What Is Cersei's Plan Now?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I know it has to be a coincidence (or does it?) but I was watching Sharknado 5 before GoT and there was a scene where

Sharknado 5 spoiler


Spoiler



Fin is at an archeology dig in a cave under Stonehenge and sees wall drawings/carvings that indicate ancient man also battled Sharknados using a powerful weapon that just happens to be right there in the cave.



Then of course I switched over to GoT where there was that scene in the cave under Dragonstone with the pictures and the dragon glass ...

Twilight Zone stuff, I tell ya!


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Never in my wildest imagination would I have thought to see a "Sharknado 5 spoiler"


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> The spear looked puny compared to the dragon and it appeared like Dany wasn't going to have such a hard time pulling it out all by her 120 lb self. They should have made the spear look more formidable if it was going to inflict severe damage to a dragon. I'm sure that the Dothraki dude that was impaled by one doesn't share my opinion.


A bullet looks puny compared to an elephant. That doesn't mean it can't kill one.

The arrow was traveling fast enough to not only reach the dragon way up in the air, but embed in its shoulder.


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## stark (Dec 31, 2003)

If Drogon hadn't recovered quickly enough to torch the Scorpion before landing, he would have been a sitting duck if Bronn could have loaded another bolt.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stark said:


> If Drogon hadn't recovered quickly enough to torch the Scorpion before landing, he would have been a sitting duck if Bronn could have loaded another bolt.


Exactly. If they have a dozen Scorpions on the walls of the Red Keep, and a couple of the bolts hit a dragon and cause it to be stationary for any length of time, then all those other positions will be able to shoot it while it's at a standstill.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

DevdogAZ said:


> Exactly. If they have a dozen Scorpions on the walls of the Red Keep, and a couple of the bolts hit a dragon and cause it to be stationary for any length of time, then all those other positions will be able to shoot it while it's at a standstill.


unless there's more than one dragon...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> unless there's more than one dragon...


True. But I don't think they introduced the idea of Qyburn building this weapon and Cersie telling him to make lots of them just so that it will make one appearance in this little skirmish and that's the last we'll see of it. I think it's going to come into play in a bigger way down the road, and I suspect it will mean the death of at least one of the dragons.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Here's a question: when Qyburn demonstrated the scorpion under the castle, he did it on "the largest dragon ever." How did that skull that he shot compare to Dany's dragons?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> The spear looked puny compared to the dragon and it appeared like Dany wasn't going to have such a hard time pulling it out all by her 120 lb self. They should have made the spear look more formidable if it was going to inflict severe damage to a dragon. I'm sure that the Dothraki dude that was impaled by one doesn't share my opinion.


Bronn can report back that the new weapon worked great at point blank range, center mass on a human. 

I believe Drogon had one fly by where archers let loose on him. I believe those bounced off. Bronn's arrow/spear did a little better.

I'm thinking Valyrian steel, launched with the strength of 100 men, hitting the inside of the mouth aimed up into the brain will do the trick.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Huh? I seem to recall Drogon flying up onto that hill/mountain and just lying there like he was suffering in agonizing pain. Which is why Dany wandered off on foot and got captured.


Dragons like alone time. He was being reflective and aloof. I do understand the body and facial movements of dragons are hard to interpret and can easy be misread.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Dragons like alone time. He was being reflective and aloof. I do understand the body and facial movements of dragons are hard to interpret and can easy be misread.


He was pining for the fjords...


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## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)

"Flee, you idiot."
"You idiot."
"You f**king idiot."


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

Speaking of dragons flying into battle, did anyone else get a kind of Steve Reeves superman flying special effect vibe during the close ups of Dany flying on the dragon? It just didn't seem all that convincing to me for some reason.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Steve Reeves? Do you mean George? Or Christopher Reeve?


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

tomhorsley said:


> Speaking of dragons flying into battle, did anyone else get a kind of Steve Reeves superman flying special effect vibe during the close ups of Dany flying on the dragon? It just didn't seem all that convincing to me for some reason.


You can see how they generated those effects in this YouTube video.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NorthAlabama said:


> they could employ the velociraptor approach - while one distracts the scorpion from the front, the other two move in from each side.


Clever girl!


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

tomhorsley said:


> Speaking of dragons flying into battle, did anyone else get a kind of Steve Reeves superman flying special effect vibe during the close ups of Dany flying on the dragon? It just didn't seem all that convincing to me for some reason.


steve reeves was hercules, not superman:


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Are you suggesting he just waited until he was close to the ground to recover? Was he doing that just for dramatic effect just to tease the Lannisters?


It's like the autorotation manuver in a helicopter. You have to time it exactly so you have enough momentum to actually slow down.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> I subscribe to the GoT YouTube channel. They just posted this, pretty amazing and an incredible amout of work that went into last night's battle.


I just got a chance to watch this. Wow! There were some major logistics they had to figure out to be able to film that sequence. I can't imagine the amount of planning and training and preparation involved, to then only get one chance to set off some pyrotechnics and hope it all works properly on film because you're not going to get a chance to do it again.


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## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)

Does Dany even know that the wagons are carrying food?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Lord Snow said:


> Does Dany even know that the wagons are carrying food?


From Dany's perspective, it doesn't matter what the wagons are carrying. She only knows that the Lannister army is traveling with this train of wagons, so they must be carrying something important enough to warrant the armed escort, and the loss of the contents will likely deal a big blow to the Lannister army. Therefore, it's a good strategic move to destroy them. Defeating the Lannister army while protecting the wagons in an attempt to then appropriate the contents of the wagons for her own forces requires a completely different strategy and much more precision. From a storytelling and visual perspective, it's much cooler to just have the dragon destroying everything in sight rather than only torching humans while trying not to torch the wagons.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I just got a chance to watch this. Wow! There were some major logistics they had to figure out to be able to film that sequence. I can't imagine the amount of planning and training and preparation involved, to then only get one chance to set off some pyrotechnics and hope it all works properly on film because you're not going to get a chance to do it again.


It seems like there was some water there that was a little deeper than what we saw the horses ride through.

-smak-


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> She only knows that the Lannister army is traveling with this train of wagons, so they must be carrying something important enough to warrant the armed escort, and the loss of the contents will likely deal a big blow to the Lannister army. Therefore, it's a good strategic move to destroy them.


When planning to besiege a city, destroying supplies headed into that city could be a good move.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

NorthAlabama said:


> steve reeves was hercules, not superman:


Joey, do you like movies about gladiators?

You ever seen a grown man naked?

Joey, have you ever been in a... in a Turkish prison?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

If the Night King managed to kill a dragon, can he then control it? they seem to be able to do so with horses, for example.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> I agree. We don't know if in his injured state that he's even still capable of flight.


Even a small spike into where the primary flight muscles pretty much have to be could be problem. Certainly you wouldn't want to fly until it had been removed otherwise the barbed head it just going to keep tearing up those muscles.

While there are more vulnerable places to be hit there are also plenty of places that would have been less risky (hit in the legs for example)


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> That's an interesting comparison.
> 
> When you stub your toe hard enough to trip, you lose your balance and begin to fall until you are able to get your feet back underneath you (on the ground) and restore your balance. But if that happens right as you are walking up to a counter, chances are you are slamming your face on the counter before your feet restore your balance.


Agreed. I wasn't disputing the ground part. Just giving an example where a large amount of pain doesn't mean true damage.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

And the arrow had those spikes things (don't know what they're called) that do more damage being taken out than going in. Dany pulling on that arrow was a terrible idea.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Anubys said:


> And the arrow had those spikes things (don't know what they're called) that do more damage being taken out than going in. Dany pulling on that arrow was a terrible idea.


That's what I was thinking as she was doing it.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> That's what I was thinking as she was doing it.


The thing is, she has to do something with it. the entire bolt was made out of metal, so it's not snapping off. She doesn't exactly have any cutting tools. There's no dragon vet. And the way the arrow was positioned, it couldn't be pushed through without causing even worse damage. In short, all her options were terrible at that moment, and she may well have picked the best option (hard to know if leaving it in there for a while would be better or worse).


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> steve reeves was hercules, not superman:


He shoulda been Superman. George was to flabby for the role...LOL!


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Listening to the Cast of Kings podcast, did anyone realize Dickon Tarly was a different actor from last season? I had no idea.

Just googled the original actor. He play HG Wells on ABCs Time After Time. Which I really liked and was disappointed it was cancelled. OK, back your regular programming...


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

The Dickon switch was mentioned in a previous thread.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

i didn't even notice, unlike when they switched darrins in bewitched...were both actors named dick?


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

NorthAlabama said:


> i didn't even notice, unlike when they switched darrins in bewitched...were both actors named dick?


Dickon I believe


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> And the arrow had those spikes things (don't know what they're called) that do more damage being taken out than going in. Dany pulling on that arrow was a terrible idea.


barbs?

This is like the mouse removing the splinter for the Lion. It's annoying, and it's tricky. But it's not that big a deal. Normally I'd say they don't even address it next episode since it's such a non-event. But y'all seem concerned enough that now they'll put in some throw-away comments to appease your concerns.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

JohnB1000 said:


> The Dickon switch was mentioned in a previous thread.


Sadly, the Dickon switch was set to OFF for at least three main characters in GOT.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> And the arrow had those spikes things (don't know what they're called) that do more damage being taken out than going in. Dany pulling on that arrow was a terrible idea.


Do we have a photo of this arrow/bolt?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

JohnB1000 said:


> Dickon I believe


/Carnac the Magnificent

What did Samantha have on her honeymoon?

/end Carnac the Magnificent


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> barbs?
> 
> This is like the mouse removing the splinter for the Lion. It's annoying, and it's tricky. But it's not that big a deal. Normally I'd say they don't even address it next episode since it's such a non-event. But y'all seem concerned enough that now they'll put in some throw-away comments to appease your concerns.


You do realize that Arrow style weapons are actually designed to incur damage on exit. It is a legitimate concern.

She did not appear to be extracting it using any method other than yanking.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

A couple of thoughts on the scorpion bolt:

1) bullets aren't that big (and flechettes, which do terrible damage to unarmored bodies, are even smaller).

2) The position and angle of that puncture wound is not far off from one of the most lethal stab wounds you can inflict on a person (straight down the torso, between shoulder and collarbone). Fortunately, it doesn't look deep enough to hit any organs, but there still may be major blood vessels there that could cause Drogon to bleed out. [ETA: not that I expect that, given that they shied away from the immediate kill --see #3]

3) Based on the way they lined up the shots (no pun), I was convinced that the bolt was going to go right down Drogon's gullet. In fact I'm hard pressed to explain how Bronn actually missed the head-shot there, unless the scorpion just isn't a very accurate weapon to begin with?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

The more unbelievable thing is that he shot a bird in flight from hundreds of yards away with a frikin' arrow!


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> The more unbelievable thing is that he shot a bird in flight from hundreds of yards away with a frikin' arrow!


...A rather _large_ bird, and one that's "coming right at us!"


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> The more unbelievable thing is that he shot a bird in flight from hundreds of yards away with a frikin' arrow!


And Bronn-Bronn didn't even read the Scorpion manual or the quick setup guide.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

And why on earth didn't Dany just bank right or left once the bolt was released? It seems like Drogon should have been able to avoid that shot, but Dany foolishly just charged him straight ahead.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> You do realize that Arrow style weapons are actually designed to incur damage on exit. It is a legitimate concern.
> 
> She did not appear to be extracting it using any method other than yanking.


I do. It's a legitimate concern for you. Not for Drogon. Drogon be like "just yank the thing out, I'm fine."


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> And Bronn-Bronn didn't even read the Scorpion manual or the quick setup guide.


He really did use it with zero effort and thought. That product manager deserves a raise.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

If the producers were going to kill Drogon, there would have been no doubt at the end of the show that he was dead. So I find it highly unlikely he's suddenly going to die from this wound. I doubt it will even ever be mentioned again except as a lesson learned that they now have the Scorpion and it does offer a threat to the dragons.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Similarly, if the producers were going to kill Jaime, there would have been no doubt at the end of the episode that he was dead. So it was kind of stupid for them to even end the episode on that pseudo-cliffhanger.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> If the producers were going to kill Drogon, there would have been no doubt at the end of the show that he was dead. So I find it highly unlikely he's suddenly going to die from this wound. I doubt it will even ever be mentioned again except as a lesson learned that they now have the Scorpion and it does offer a threat to the dragons.


I do hope someone (Tyrion? Davos? Jon?) gets to give Dany a brief strategy lesson. How to help the ground troops, what to attack first, etc. etc. They'll also want to communicate how to identify and eliminate scorpions. Perhaps walkie talkies.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Similarly, if the producers were going to kill Jaime, there would have been no doubt at the end of the episode that he was dead. So it was kind of stupid for them to even end the episode on that pseudo-cliffhanger.


Agreed. Pretty obvious we'll start off next episode with him revived and the new King of the Iron Islands. We've done this before...


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

It would be amazing to have the Dothraki charging and all of the Lannister army lined up ready to face the onslaught, and then have Dany appear out of nowhere from the side and simply strafe down the line of Lannisters before the Dothraki even get there. Better yet, one from each side (like the velociraptor comments above) and get them from both sides while they're concentrating on the Dothraki ahead.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Agreed. Pretty obvious we'll start off next episode with him revived and the new King of the Iron Islands. We've done this before...


"Where are my niece and nephew? Let's go murder them!"


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> "Where are my niece and nephew? Let's go murder them!"


One of my favorite lines...ever!

Once Jaime has been converted, he will use all the lessons he learned from Robb to really get Dany's strategy in tip top shape.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> It would be amazing to have the Dothraki charging and all of the Lannister army lined up ready to face the onslaught, and then have Dany appear out of nowhere from the side and simply strafe down the line of Lannisters before the Dothraki even get there. Better yet, one from each side (like the velociraptor comments above) and get them from both sides while they're concentrating on the Dothraki ahead.


Or she could have simply arrived a few minutes early and while everyone was busy widdling all over themselves the cavalry could have swooped into them instead of facing a shield wall that had one hole in the middle.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jakerock said:


> Or she could have simply arrived a few minutes early and while everyone was busy widdling all over themselves the cavalry could have swooped into them instead of facing a shield wall that had one hole in the middle.


Yeah, that was a (very minor) nuisance, how they played the scene for the audience and not for the characters. Sure, it was cool to see her swooping in at the last moment. But no way would she actually have done it that way.

I think I believe that's unworthy of this show...they do like to go for the cool moments, but they also generally do a pretty good job of integrating them into the world they've built. This time, not so much.

Pretty cool moment, though! (It's interesting how many of their pretty cool moments involve Dany. )


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> "Where are my niece and nephew? Let's go murder them!"


Are Jaime's nieces and nephews also his daughters and sons?

Well Tyrion really did whore it up though. There must be hundreds of legitimate Jaime nieces and nephews out there.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Are Jaime's nieces and nephews also his daughters and sons?
> 
> Well Tyrion really did whore it up though. There must be hundreds of legitimate Jaime nieces and nephews out there.


You mean *il*legitimate.


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, that was a (very minor) nuisance, how they played the scene for the audience and not for the characters. Sure, it was cool to see her swooping in at the last moment. But no way would she actually have done it that way.
> 
> I think I believe that's unworthy of this show...they do like to go for the cool moments, but they also generally do a pretty good job of integrating them into the world they've built. This time, not so much.


Without a doubt we're seeing the inability of TV writers to duplicate the solid foundation that had been provided by George R.R. Martin's writing. As much as I enjoy the show I'm very much looking forward to reading the book(s) that finish this story. I just hope that Martin's version is not influenced in any way by what we've seen on the screen.


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## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> steve reeves was hercules, not superman:


Is that the Professor from Gilligan's Island rowing right behind him??


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

MarkL said:


> Is that the Professor from Gilligan's Island rowing right behind him??


i knew he looked familiar, thanks for the name! if it is russell johnson, he's uncredited per imdb.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

TampaThunder said:


> Without a doubt we're seeing the inability of TV writers to duplicate the solid foundation that had been provided by George R.R. Martin's writing. As much as I enjoy the show I'm very much looking forward to reading the book(s) that finish this story. I just hope that Martin's version is not influenced in any way by what we've seen on the screen.


I doubt I'll read them, and I've read them all up until now. They went from very good books, to a total slog to read. The last couple were meandering and wordy, with chapter after chapter that didn't seem to advance the story at all.

He created an amazing world, but I think he lost sight of the end and started wandering in the forest. If the TV series ends in a satisfying manner, I see no reason to read the books. Further, I think GRRM knows this. My prediction: Book Six comes out next spring, in the interregnum between this season and the final season. Book Seven never sees the light of day. He won't even start on it. And if 6 wasn't already 85% done, he wouldn't start it either. He's having a great time, life is good, plenty of money, and lots more projects in the hopper. Once D&D tell the story, it would be a waste of his time to also tell it.

.02


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Once D&D tell the story, it would be a waste of his time to also tell it.


Once they tell the story a ghost writer can put it to paper with his name on it.


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I doubt I'll read them, and I've read them all up until now. They went from very good books, to a total slog to read. The last couple were meandering and wordy, with chapter after chapter that didn't seem to advance the story at all.
> 
> He created an amazing world, but I think he lost sight of the end and started wandering in the forest. If the TV series ends in a satisfying manner, I see no reason to read the books. Further, I think GRRM knows this. My prediction: Book Six comes out next spring, in the interregnum between this season and the final season. Book Seven never sees the light of day. He won't even start on it. And if 6 wasn't already 85% done, he wouldn't start it either. He's having a great time, life is good, plenty of money, and lots more projects in the hopper. Once D&D tell the story, it would be a waste of his time to also tell it.
> 
> .02


Sadly I can't disagree with anything you've said. I've read the books 5 times and without a doubt _A Feast for Crows_ and _A Dance with Dragons_ are, by far, the weakest of them all. However, the last three times I've read them I did so skipping back and forth between the two reading the chapters in chronological order instead of each book separately. Better but still a big drop off in quality compared to the first three.

I fear that your predictions regarding the last two books will come true but I remain hopeful that Martin feels more of an obligation to his readers that got him to where he is today.

I love the show and rewatch it every year before the new season starts but am depressed that there are only 7 eps this year and six next year. The first 5+ seasons were damn good adaptations of the novel but it's apparent now that the show no longer has the depth and breadth of story that they originally started with.

But it's excellent stuff nonetheless.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ct1 said:


> Once they tell the story a ghost writer can put it to paper with his name on it.


If GRRM were willing to do that, he could have already done so, since he provided D&D with the outline of how to finish the story for the show.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I think they did a great job getting to the meat of the story for the last two books. They tightened up the story tremendously without losing anything important. Now that they have been cut lose, they are moving a bit too fast, truthfully. I wish they still had source material. Although it would probably take a few more seasons to finish.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think at the beginning of the show, the books were better than the show. And the show has gotten better, and the books have slacked off, and now the show is better than the books.

I'm not even sure how much I want the last two (three? Four? He's been wrong many times before as to how long the books are going to run...longest trilogy EVER!) books. They might be more work than they're worth to re-hash a sotry the TV show will already have told, and probably better.


----------



## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

astrohip said:


> I doubt I'll read them, and I've read them all up until now. They went from very good books, to a total slog to read. The last couple were meandering and wordy, with chapter after chapter that didn't seem to advance the story at all.


I find even the first books a slog when I've tried to re-read them. GRRM throws in so much stuff that has nothing to do with the rest of the story. Now that I know it is mostly filler, I can't really get into doing a re-read. They are actually the only books I ever liked which I disliked on a re-read.

My current theory is that he'll never finish the books anyway because he owns 10,000 or so clickbait websites that make fantastic sums of money publishing rumors about when the books will be done. He isn't getting any writing done because he is spending all his time making up new rumors .

But if he ever does finish them, maybe Reader's Digest can come out with a "Select Edition" that throws out all the irrelevant bits. They could probably get all 8 volumes into about 100 pages.


----------



## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

DevdogAZ said:


> Steve Reeves? Do you mean George? Or Christopher Reeve?


Yep, sorry. I meant the early TV superman George Reeves. Poor brain is in decay .


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

tomhorsley said:


> Yep, sorry. I meant the early TV superman George Reeves. Poor brain is in decay .


it was a little while back, and there were a lot of reeves in acting then, too.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Sadly, the Dickon switch was set to OFF for at least three main characters in GOT.


Jaime Lannister walks into a bar and orders a drink.
He accidentally knocks it over with his metal hand and curses loudly.

From a nearby table, Lord Varys, Greyworm, and Theon look up and say, "What are you complaining about?"


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> barbs?
> 
> This is like the mouse removing the splinter for the Lion. It's annoying, and it's tricky. But it's not that big a deal. Normally I'd say they don't even address it next episode since it's such a non-event. But y'all seem concerned enough that now they'll put in some throw-away comments to appease your concerns.


I went back and looked at the Scorpion arrows as Bronn was reloading and there is some barbing there.









Of course, Drogon is much larger so it's not going to be as painful to remove as it would be for that Dothraki that Bronn shot.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Frankly, if the scorpion is that powerful that it can shoot an arrow this high and go through a Drangon's skin, that poor Dothraki should have been completely blown up. The arrow's head barely went through his body; just enough to wedge him to the wagon.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Frankly, if the scorpion is that powerful that it can shoot an arrow this high and go through a Drangon's skin, that poor Dothraki should have been completely blown up. The arrow's head barely went through his body; just enough to wedge him to the wagon.


Brown didn't have time to wind it up to 11.


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

I was bass fishing with a couple of buddies, all 3 of us crowded into a little john boat, and one of the guys went to cast his lure and caught my wrist on the backswing. It was pretty bad. The lure had several barbs and it went in 1/4" or so, but didn't come out. We were thinking about going somewhere and having it removed. Instead I drank about 8 beers and had the guy that did it push the barbs through and cut them off and pull the rest of the hook out. He's a dentist, I figured that was as good as a doctor, and much cheaper. This has been at least 30 years ago, and I still have what's left of the lure in my tackle box. I made it through OK, so Drogon should have no problem.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Frankly, if the scorpion is that powerful that it can shoot an arrow this high and go through a Drangon's skin, that poor Dothraki should have been completely blown up. The arrow's head barely went through his body; just enough to wedge him to the wagon.


 How is it going to blow up the Dothraki guy? It doesn't really make any difference how powerful the scorpion is. All that means is how fast the bolt will travel. So whether it goes through the Dothraki guy at 500 feet per second or 1000 feet per second isn't going to change the damage that it does to him. The only difference it's going to make is how deeply the bolt buries itself in the wagon behind him.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

I'm most confused why they didn't get the scorpion out the second they thought they heard the flapping of giant dragon wings. They wouldn't bring the scorpion along for any other reason. Why wait until the entire army is smoldering before uncovering it? And why wasn't there a team of soldiers trained to use it? Why have this single purpose weapon and only Bron and Jaime know about it. I guess maybe the scorpion squad could have met a fiery demise before Jaime decided to go ahead and use it.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

It seemed to me that the first instinct was to get them men lined up. Then the dragon assorted, and basically shocked them into a state of stupor. Ideally they would have done what you mentioned, but they were dumbfounded.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

My guess is that Cersei basically commanded the army to take the Scorpion with them, but none of the leaders actually thought it would need to be used and therefore didn't bother to have anyone manning it or trained on its use. Also, given that none of these people had ever seen a dragon before, my guess is they were all pretty much in awe with their jaws glued to the floor when they first saw it coming at them, and it wasn't until after it fried a giant hole in their line that anyone realized they needed to do anything about it, which is when Jaime ordered Bronn to go get on it.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Similarly, if the producers were going to kill Jaime, there would have been no doubt at the end of the episode that he was dead. So it was kind of stupid for them to even end the episode on that pseudo-cliffhanger.


Keep Scott Gimple far away from this show.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> It would be amazing to have the Dothraki charging and all of the Lannister army lined up ready to face the onslaught, and then have Dany appear out of nowhere from the side and simply strafe down the line of Lannisters before the Dothraki even get there. Better yet, one from each side (like the velociraptor comments above) and get them from both sides while they're concentrating on the Dothraki ahead.


Would have been much smarter tactics.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Marco said:


> Would have been much smarter tactics.


It would have. But much like my scorpion question above it makes for less exciting TV.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Howie said:


> I was bass fishing with a couple of buddies, all 3 of us crowded into a little john boat, and one of the guys went to cast his lure and caught my wrist on the backswing. It was pretty bad. The lure had several barbs and it went in 1/4" or so, but didn't come out. We were thinking about going somewhere and having it removed. Instead I drank about 8 beers and had the guy that did it push the barbs through and cut them off and pull the rest of the hook out. He's a dentist, I figured that was as good as a doctor, and much cheaper. This has been at least 30 years ago, and I still have what's left of the lure in my tackle box. I made it through OK, so Drogon should have no problem.


But you had a dentist do it. Not your mother.

You want anecdotal? Same thing happens to a friend a few months back. Had to do surgery on his hand because he couldn't get it out. Hospital for two days.

Drogon is going to be okay because the writers want him to be okay. This is fiction.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Plot twist... His mother was the dentist!


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I went back and looked at the Scorpion arrows as Bronn was reloading and there is some barbing there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you. That is pretty brutal. Curious how far it stuck into the mighty beast.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> How is it going to blow up the Dothraki guy? It doesn't really make any difference how powerful the scorpion is. All that means is how fast the bolt will travel. So whether it goes through the Dothraki guy at 500 feet per second or 1000 feet per second isn't going to change the damage that it does to him. The only difference it's going to make is how deeply the bolt buries itself in the wagon behind him.


It should have gone through him, through the board, through the next wagon and then skewered a few Lannister men before coming to rest a half mile away.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> It should have gone through him, through the board, through the next wagon and then skewered a few Lannister men before coming to rest a half mile away.


There's no evidence that the tension was cranked all the way up (as mentioned earlier).


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> There's no evidence that the tension was cranked all the way up (as mentioned earlier).


Can we get a screenshot?

We saw Bronn crank it briefly on subsequent shots. Looked like the rope went around the spool about 8 times. Perhaps we can compare. I'm not sure writers expect us to think it was on quarter charge shot one and full charge shot 2 and 3.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

No, the scene in question doesn't show the rope clearly enough, IMO. I'm not sure the writers expect us to think that the big spiked arrow, after going through the guy's front leather/armor, and his torso, and carrying him straight across to the other wagon, wouldn't have lost enough power to finally stop without continuing on even further.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

They should obviously have hired the former MythBusters to test it out on pig carcasses to get accurate info about what it would do .


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm just going to leave this right here:


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> It should have gone through him, through the board, through the next wagon and then skewered a few Lannister men before coming to rest a half mile away.





BrettStah said:


> There's no evidence that the tension was cranked all the way up (as mentioned earlier).


Actually we see Bronn locking the arms in place AFTER he shoots the first shot through the guy. So that would be an indication to me that indeed, the weapon was not operating normally when he blew the dude away.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Dear god can't wait until the next episode so we can obsess over something other than the effing scorpion. Makes me almost miss the discussion over the gate design at the wall.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Dear god can't wait until the next episode so we can obsess over something other than the effing scorpion. Makes me almost miss the discussion over the gate design at the wall.


Now that you mention it, we never really resolved that. We should re-open the discussion...


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Dear god can't wait until the next episode so we can obsess over something other than the effing scorpion. Makes me almost miss the discussion over the gate design at the wall.


Same designers, though.


----------



## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)

One of many on my list of things that I expect will happen but would disappoint me if they didn't happen

- the theory that Jon and The Night King will fight one-on-one.
- clegane vs clegane
- jaime killing cersei
- bran dying
- littlefinger getting butchered by No One
- theon's redemption by growing a new manhood
- tormund and brienne getting it on


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Lord Snow said:


> One of many on my list of things that I expect will happen but would disappoint me if they didn't happen
> 
> - the theory that Jon and The Night King will fight one-on-one.
> - clegane vs clegane
> ...


I strongly suspect you'll get your first disappointment in the next episode.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Lord Snow said:


> One of many on my list of things that I expect will happen but would disappoint me if they didn't happen
> 
> - the theory that Jon and The Night King will fight one-on-one.
> - clegane vs clegane
> ...


I honestly can't see most of this happening. 
Also Theon doesn't need redemption IMO. 
Petyr may die but I think it'll be someone else. I'm bummed about that but preparing myself for it just in case.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)




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## steveroe (Oct 29, 2002)

Howie said:


> This has been at least 30 years ago, and I still have what's left of the lure in my tackle box.


Ouch!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I'm just going to leave this right here:


Thanks. I stick to my story. Barely hurt after hit, could fly just fine. Acted like nothing happened. No "limp", both wings flapping and working perfectly, he smashes some stuff, flame-ons some stuff, looks for more things to kill. Acting perfectly normal. Look at him basically hover there. What a majestic beast!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jakerock said:


> Actually we see Bronn locking the arms in place AFTER he shoots the first shot through the guy. So that would be an indication to me that indeed, the weapon was not operating normally when he blew the dude away.


Yes, I noticed that too. Now I'm wondering how it worked at all. ?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Lord Snow said:


> One of many on my list of things that I expect will happen but would disappoint me if they didn't happen
> 
> - the theory that Jon and The Night King will fight one-on-one.
> - clegane vs clegane
> ...


Nice list.

I hope Theon just dies. Like with no other storyline or dialogue. I'd like to see Mountain vs. Dog, but agree it's a bit cliche and predictable at this point.

I don't care about Jaime. Hope he drowns.

Littlefinger should die, but I want to see him come out on top. Just for the twist and someone evil should be amongst the "winners".


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

LF is as good as dead. Bran is going to expose him in his weird Bran way and Arya is going to give him a Westerosi neck-tie with that new dagger of hers.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

The Hound was in the throne room when Littlefinger betrayed Ned. I figure there's a good chance he'll turn up and tell that story.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Yes, I noticed that too. Now I'm wondering how it worked at all. ?


I'm sure they travel with a bolt loaded and ready to go so they can get a shot off ASAP when necessary.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm sure they travel with a bolt loaded and ready to go so they can get a shot off ASAP when necessary.


Once Bronny fired the first shot he then seemed to have to set it up. He put something into one of the arms. I'm not sure how it functioned without.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

It looked like there were two sets of arms on the scorpion. The large arms were folded in when it was covered for transport, but there were two smaller arms above the large arms.

These smaller arms must allow the scorpion to still function without the large arms engaged and had enough force to take out that one Dothraki guy.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

getbak said:


> It looked like there were two sets of arms on the scorpion. The large arms were folded in when it was covered for transport, but there were two smaller arms above the large arms.
> 
> These smaller arms must allow the scorpion to still function without the large arms engaged and had enough force to take out that one Dothraki guy.


You forgot something...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

heySkippy said:


> The Hound was in the throne room when Littlefinger betrayed Ned. I figure there's a good chance he'll turn up and tell that story.


I find it a little ridiculous that the Hound spent almost a year traveling with Arya and never thought to mention it.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I find it a little ridiculous that the Hound spent almost a year traveling with Arya and never thought to mention it.


Especially since he heard her constantly reciting her "list." He should have said, "Why isn't Littlefinger on your list? He's the one who betrayed your dad and got him beheaded."


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Do we know he didn't tell her?


Spoiler



Perhaps he did tell her, and that's why Arya looked a little pissed at LF, also why she didn't tell Sansa her full list.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Why the spoiler tags? seems like your normal guessing...

We've heard her list and LF was never on it as far as I can remember. In addition, Arya isn't the kind of person who would wait to do the deed!


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## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)

When winter comes… You’ll hear no lions roar… No stags grazing the fields…No roses growing in the meadows… No snakes in the sand… The sun will cease to warm the land… The Krakens will freeze where they swim… The flayed men will rot and wither… No trouts swimming in the river and no falcons flying in the air… Not even the dragons’ breath will warm you in your halls… And the “Others” will turn a man to wight…Brace yourselves… Winter is coming.And only the wolves will howl in the long night.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Is that a quote that I should recognize?


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## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)

zordude said:


> Is that a quote that I should recognize?


This quote isn't from any of the books. It's made up.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Lord Snow said:


> This quote isn't from any of the books. It's made up.


The Faceless Wolf (fanfic)


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Interesting idea...if only someone had mentioned it earlier...oh wait!
> 
> I'm torn between the idea that it must be - simply must be - Jaime to eventually kill Cersei.


There is a lot of thread that I haven't read yet (so it may have been mentioned) but I heard a theory that when Cersei and Jamie were in the "map room" in King's Landing, Cersei was standing on The Neck and Jamie was standing in front of The Fingers.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

goblue97 said:


> There is a lot of thread that I haven't read yet (so it may have been mentioned) but I heard a theory that when Cersei and Jamie were in the "map room" in King's Landing, Cersei was standing on The Neck and Jamie was standing in front of The Fingers.


That is a fact, not a theory. I think the theory is then that this is a portent that Jamie will strangle Cersei


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Anubys said:


> That is a fact, not a theory. I think the theory is then that this is a portent that Jamie will strangle Cersei


That's what I meant. I was trying to stay vague (spoiler nazis) and I also just worded it horribly.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> That is a fact, not a theory. I think the theory is then that this is a portent that Jamie will strangle Cersei


Is it wrong that I would really like to see that happen?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> Is it wrong that I would really like to see that happen?


Shame.

Shame.

Shame.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Re-watch it today on HBO Go, I will be watching the rest of the show on HBO Go, much better PQ and sound from the Playstation then the DirtyTV and the crappy Genii box.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Is it wrong that I would really like to see that happen?


I think we'd all like to see that happen. Can't imagine that anyone doesn't. So no, it's not wrong at all.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Plus Jon watched Rickon die, so he was probably pretty sure Theon hadn't killed him.


I'm sure when Jon found out that Ramsey had Rickon, his first thought was, "Phew, Theon didn't kill him." 

But in all seriousness, he didn't act surprised at all to find out Rickon was still alive. So I think we can safely assume that he already knew beforehand. And my guess is that he already at the very least strongly suspected Rickon was still out there and alive long before Sansa showed up.



pendragn said:


> I just rewatched Hardhome today. One of the WW's walks through a building that is one fire while Jon and one of the free folk are looking for the bag of dragon glass. I don't know if the WW came in direct contact with the fire, but he didn't seem too worried walking around in a burning building.


That was just a normal fire, though. We don't know what dragon fire or even wildfire might do to them.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sure, it was cool to see her swooping in at the last moment. But no way would she actually have done it that way.
> 
> I think I believe that's unworthy of this show...they do like to go for the cool moments, but they also generally do a pretty good job of integrating them into the world they've built. This time, not so much.


Given all the dialogue about her going out on her own, I actually think it would have been more suspenseful to have Daenerys come charging in alone on her dragon. For a few moments, we might have thought that she had decided to take things into her own hands. And then they could have cut to the massive Dothraki horde charging in.



mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Dear god can't wait until the next episode so we can obsess over something other than the effing scorpion. Makes me almost miss the discussion over the gate design at the wall.


Just wait until a Scorpion is used to destroy the gate.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Dany, not a chance. She dies, the war they've spent much of the series setting up is over.


I would say unlikely, but not go so far as to say there is no chance. It's possible that her purpose in the story was simply to bring the Dothraki, Unsullied, and dragons to Westeros. Perhaps she does end up dying, and losing the war. Cersei and Euron marry, and both succesfully end up arranging for each other's murder (as both have been described as willing to do). Both of them die, and the realm is thrown into chaos.

On top of that, the dragons have become wild, and are causing chaos of their own. Perhaps this is when Bran steps in, and takes control of them. And Jon must figure out how to unite the Seven Kingdoms before it's too late.

I think it's extremely likely that either Jon or Daenerys will make it to the ultimate battle. But it's possible that the story doesn't need both of them. I still think it's more likely than not that they will both be there, but really the most important participants in that war are the dragons.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I found Daenerys turning Jon's words to Tormund against him interesting. (When she said, "Isn't their survival more important than your pride?" It wasn't intentional, I'm assuming, but Jon recognized those words.)

The thing is, though, Jon didn't demand that Tormund bend the knee. He only asked the Free Folk to fight with him. I wonder if that's a portent for what is to come in the arrangement between Jon and Daenerys. Perhaps Daenerys needs the North's help in her war against Cersei, and she eventually agrees to let the North have their independence as well as support them in the fight against the White Walkers if they help her with her war first.

Jon won't like reducing the forces in the North, but perhaps he decides that the short term sacrifice is worth the longer term gains.

On a different note, after Jon's speech to Daenerys about how she had inspired so many people to follow her because she wasn't "more of the same", it seemed odd that he was asking Missandei about whether or not she would be free to leave.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

So the very latest teaser shows Jon in a stare down with a dragon. Stealing a dragon and flying it north would certainly be one way to get Dany's attention focused north .


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

BitbyBlit said:


> I found Daenerys turning Jon's words to Tormund against him interesting. (When she said, "Isn't their survival more important than your pride?" It wasn't intentional, I'm assuming, but Jon recognized those words.)


Whoops. Those words were actually said by Jon to Mance, not Tormund. He shares similar sentiments with Tormund, but doesn't actually say that phrase.

So I guess that means Jon ends up being burnt alive for not bending the knee.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> Whoops. Those words were actually said by Jon to Mance, not Tormund. He shares similar sentiments with Tormund, but doesn't actually say that phrase.
> 
> So I guess that means Jon ends up being burnt alive for not bending the knee.


And shot with an arrow to the heart while burning!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> I would say unlikely, but not go so far as to say there is no chance. It's possible that her purpose in the story was simply to bring the Dothraki, Unsullied, and dragons to Westeros. Perhaps she does end up dying, and losing the war. Cersei and Euron marry, and both succesfully end up arranging for each other's murder (as both have been described as willing to do). Both of them die, and the realm is thrown into chaos.
> 
> On top of that, the dragons have become wild, and are causing chaos of their own. Perhaps this is when Bran steps in, and takes control of them. And Jon must figure out how to unite the Seven Kingdoms before it's too late.
> 
> I think it's extremely likely that either Jon or Daenerys will make it to the ultimate battle. But it's possible that the story doesn't need both of them. I still think it's more likely than not that they will both be there, but really the most important participants in that war are the dragons.


This is the Song of Ice and Fire. Do you really think we're going to get to the end without either Ice (Jon Snow) or Fire (Daenerys Targaryen?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> This is the Song of Ice and Fire. Do you really think we're going to get to the end without either Ice (Jon Snow) or Fire (Daenerys Targaryen?


What if Ice is Lyanna Stark and Fire is Rheagar Targaryen?

Ice could also be the White Walkers and Fire the dragons.

I do think most likely both will live to see the final battle, if not survive it. But I also think there are other possibilities that don't make their survival quite so certain, especially in this show.


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

Are (were) Dickon and Rickon and Euron all related somehow or do they just share an 'on' at the end of their names?


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Howie said:


> Are (were) Dickon and Rickon and Euron all related somehow or do they just share an 'on' at the end of their names?


Pretty sure not related.

Dickon Tarly
Euron Greyjoy


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think we'd all like to see that happen. Can't imagine that anyone doesn't. So no, it's not wrong at all.


Part of me wants Cersie to win. Be the last person standing. Just to read the comments mostly.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

tomhorsley said:


> So the very latest teaser shows Jon in a stare down with a dragon. Stealing a dragon and flying it north would certainly be one way to get Dany's attention focused north .


I did half expect Jon to say "I need to get back up North fast. Can I borrow a dragon?"

But then less than 20 minutes later he's back at the Wall.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

I for one am thrilled they’re skipping most of the travel. If I want to watch that, I’ll watch Lord of the Rings!


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rickon Stark


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> I for one am thrilled they're skipping most of the travel. If I want to watch that, I'll watch Lord of the Rings!


Or read the last Harry Potter book.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Harry goes camping...


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