# TiVo Exits the Hardware Business



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2014/01/tivo-lays-hardware-design-team-gets-ready-exit-hardware/

Update: TiVo refutes rumors, says hardware is a 'core business'


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## Tobashadow (Nov 11, 2006)

Well that makes it interesting, kinda turns me off on upgrading my S2's now.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Interesting. Tivo's been hinting at this for quite some time but it looks like they're finally making the move. Looks like if you want a Tivo that you don't have to rent from your provider or one of their boxes with the Tivo software you'd better get 'em while they're hot. The good news is that I see the resale value of real Tivos getting better down the road.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

Wow, that's odd considering they just released the Roamio. Kinda sad...


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Yikes. I guess I'm glad they released the Roamio first, and we won't have to be stuck with Premieres.

Raises huge questions though... it's not like all that many providers are or will adopt Tivo software. So what's the end game? Strip cost centers for a viable suitor?


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

We're likely looking at something similar to the Series 2 where other manufacturers can make boxes to TiVo's specifications and just have the TiVo software installed on it.

I am still pretty shocked by this announcement, so much for a refreshed TiVo Mini.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

It would be great if they had hardware partners lined up to produce retail hardware. I don't see myself going to a cloud-based DVR from my cable company any time soon, that's for sure.


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

Thy have at least 2-3 years to line those manufacturers up, I'm not too worried.


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## randian (Jan 15, 2014)

This is rather shocking. I figured I would keep my Basic for quite a while, now I wonder if I should take the loss on resale and buy a Plus or Pro to future proof myself (and stave off having to get a cableco dvr). This makes the big discounts so soon after release more understandable.

This is likely to negatively impact resale values. As cmeinck notes, I worry for my Lifetime sub now too.


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## cmeinck (Sep 18, 2003)

The great thing about where TiVo was headed (Roamio+TiVo mini), customers could cut their monthly carrier costs. I pay Verizon $5 a month now for one cable card. Companies like Verizon and Comcast aren't interested in lowering your fees. If anything, this will be a lesser version of TiVo at a premium price over standard DVR pricing. TiVo leaving hardware doesn't give them much leverage.

I hope they are around long enough, so that my lifetime service doesn't get impacted.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

cmeinck said:


> I hope they are around long enough, so that my lifetime service doesn't get impacted.


I think the almost billion dollars they have in the bank will assure they are around for quite a while longer.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

They laid off three people and are focussing on a different line. If the decide the need a refreshed retail model, the can either outsource or bring in new talent.

The Roamio will have at least a three year shelf life, and it is obvious that TiVo feels the dynamic is changing.

Most likely assuming they will not be able to compete with the cost basis of a cloud based DVR offering.


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## aridon (Aug 31, 2006)

Not sure how they expect to compete with a cloud based DVR with bandwidth caps.


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

It makes more sense for them to do this. Let some one else make the boxes and then let them buy the rights to put Tivo's software into them.


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## randian (Jan 15, 2014)

bradleys said:


> Most likely assuming they will not be able to compete with the cost basis of a cloud based DVR offering.


Cloud DVRs are a horrible idea. The lag and jitter would make for a lousy experience. That must be why cablecos like the idea.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)




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## FACTAgent (Aug 28, 2013)

...they really need to reach out their subscribers with some kind of info instead of letting the media and rumor / speculation fill the information vacuum.

Cloud DVR is not viable for me due to data caps (they're probably coming) and the end of Net Neutrality, but, most of all, my desire for the speed, availability and control that is only possible with local storage.

I doubt Cablevision will partner with them since they are so invested in their cloud DVR, which has not received great user reviews.

When my Tivos eventually die, if Tivo has not lined up an independent HW vendor by then, I will probably move to Windows Media Center if it's still around or even ditch cable for satellite just to get local DVR storage....


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

aridon said:


> Not sure how they expect to compete with a cloud based DVR with bandwidth caps.


Their cloud-based DVR service would be run by the cableco's. Not available as a retail service. Caps wouldn't apply for those select few who will ever actually use it.


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## russg (Apr 14, 2002)

So they are going to focus on the software. I can't say that's surprising really. The hardware has gotten to a fairly mature level these days and they can easily just get systems built by another company if they want more hardware.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

Damn. I was going to wait a year before I go to the roamio for OTA only, now I have no idea how long they are going to keep the current line in retail.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

rainwater said:


> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2014/01/tivo-lays-hardware-design-team-gets-ready-exit-hardware/
> 
> It will be interesting to see how TiVo supports their latest line of products in light of this.


This explains the email I receive with a big discount on the Romeo box and the fact that TiVo is giving away the Premiere box. Look like TiVo is unloading their inventory. The summer software update, assuming we receive it, will be the last TiVo update. This is sad day for all of us who supported TiVo.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

randian said:


> Cloud DVRs are a horrible idea. The lag and jitter would make for a lousy experience. That must be why cablecos like the idea.


I don't want them either, but a cloud DVR solution, with the presentation quality of say Netflix could be offered at a cheeper rate then standalone hardware. Once that happens TiVo hardware won't be competitive.

TiVo has a touch time selling retail hardware now - when it is cheaper in the long run then cable offerings... Imagine when cut rate third parties start entering the fray with ip delivery solutions and cloud base DVR's

Other benefits to TiVo?

- no longer have to worry about your crapy network
- no longer have to offer lifetime subscriptions
- no longer have to subsidize the hardware
- no longer have leakage for bad units
- no longer have people hacking and updating systems
- no longer have to deal with cable cards, tuning adapter and all the other garbage.

I love my stand alone TiVo and I hope this "experiment" fails miserably! But, eventually having local copies of content is going to be as odd as film in a camera.


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## cmeinck (Sep 18, 2003)

I don't care whether I buy hardware from TiVo or a third party who licensed TiVo software, as it doesn't involve my cable company. I cannot see Verizon (or any cable co) licensing TiVo software and providing me with a compelling, cost effective solution that is better than what we have now.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Johncv said:


> This explains the email I receive with a big discount on the Romeo box and the fact that TiVo is giving away the Premiere box. Look like TiVo is unloading their inventory. The summer software update, assuming we receive it, will be the last TiVo update. This is sad day for all of us who supported TiVo.


TiVo is not saying that they are no longer going to sell and produce the Roamio hardware... They simply are not designing the "next hardware update"

Let's not read more into this than necessary!

And we don't know, they may choose to outsource the development of any new hardware.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

So their entire hardware design team was only 7 people and they laid off 5 of them. Somehow this doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. The Roamio line and the mini are really all the hardware they will need for the next 3 or 4 years, probably longer. DVR hardware is a very mature technology at this point. Would people ever need a DVR with 8 or 10 tuners? Probably not. They can probably keep selling the same Roamio hardware they do now, maybe with some minor tweaks and upgrades for many years. And even if they do need new hardware in 4 or 5 years, they can just outsource that to some other company. They really don't need a permanent hardware design team anymore.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

nilay from the verge is saying that they are not leaving hardware and he will post it soon.

Check out @reckless's Tweet:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/426169242082619392


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Aero 1 said:


> nilay from the verge is saying that they are not leaving hardware and he will post it soon.
> 
> Check out @reckless's Tweet:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/426169242082619392


Yeah, a lot more to this story... Thanks


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

Zatz is also saying it. 
Check out @davezatz's Tweet:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/426176452912889856


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

FACTAgent said:


> ...they really need to reach out their subscribers with some kind of info instead of letting the media and rumor / speculation fill the information vacuum.
> 
> Cloud DVR is not viable for me due to data caps (they're probably coming) and the end of Net Neutrality, but, most of all, my desire for the speed, availability and control that is only possible with local storage.
> 
> ...


Cablevision may have to partner with TiVo to make it work, if it has not received great user reviews.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

aridon said:


> Not sure how they expect to compete with a cloud based DVR with bandwidth caps.


Bandwidth caps will not apply to a cloud based DVR managed by the cable company.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Aero 1 said:


> Damn. I was going to wait a year before I go to the roamio for OTA only, now I have no idea how long they are going to keep the current line in retail.


I don't see how this would affect TiVo selling Roamio's at retail.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Johncv said:


> This explains the email I receive with a big discount on the Romeo box and the fact that TiVo is giving away the Premiere box.


I don't see how that relates them laying off their hardware team. They aren't still designing the Roamio.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

TiVo Exiting the Hardware Business? Not So Fast, Says TiVo
Rumors of its box's demise may be premature.

http://techland.time.com/2014/01/22/tivo-exiting-the-hardware-business-not-so-fast-says-tivo/


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

I see from there 10k filling this-
"We increased the number of our regular, temporary, and part-time employees engaged in research and development by 8% from a total of 288 to 312 as of January 31, 2008 compared to January 31, 2007. "
Have they gone from 312 people to 2 people in the design department?

People were talking about TiVo manufacturing TiVos, but they have outsourced that long ago, as mentioned in this old filling. Did TiVo ever manufacture their own product?

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/TiVo_(TIVO)/Filing/10-K/2013/F107431344 is the latest filling.
I wonder if the 'cloud' solution is somehow related to people fast forwarding through commercials. Meaning that with the cloud system you wouldn't be able to fast forward through commercials. 
"The DVR and other new consumer electronic devices which access broadband video have given viewers the freedom to view content when they want; and this time shifting has made it more difficult for advertisers to be assured that their commercials will be viewed by audiences at the regularly scheduled time the program is aired by network or local television stations. "


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Tivo refutes the rumors by saying they shift personnel around according to priorities, there is exploding potential in the cloud and that they expect to deliver on the Roamio for years. 

The problem is none of that says they aren't exiting the hardware business. IT sounds like spin.

It was expected this would happen as On-Demand was always going to take over one day. It was just a matter of when and not if.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I was THIS CLOSE to buying a Romio for xmas, but held off since my HD TiVo still works.. Clearly it's better to have the info now before making a choice, but now I'm not sure.. buy the newer one now and future-proof myself as said above, or avoid it..

Either way, as someone who was hacking their TiVo from the start, this is still a sad day.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

replaytv said:


> I see from there 10k filling this-
> "We increased the number of our regular, temporary, and part-time employees engaged in research and development by 8% from a total of 288 to 312 as of January 31, 2008 compared to January 31, 2007. "
> Have they gone from 312 people to 2 people in the design department?


Those were not just hardware designers. I would assume their software team has always been much larger.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Wired's bad article has been updated. This blew up pretty quickly with the dramatically false "*officially* exiting hardware" nonsense.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

rainwater said:


> ... They aren't still designing the Roamio.


Nope, just the original Premiere.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

randian said:


> Cloud DVRs are a horrible idea. The lag and jitter would make for a lousy experience. That must be why cablecos like the idea.


I *sort* of agree with you (e.g. I use On Demand even though I have a Tivo, and the shows that DO let you FF have too much latency).. However, let me still be Devil's Advocate.

My Tivo + my iPad is sort of already a "cloud DVR" from the iPad's perspective. I *almost* always download to the iPad (which I use while walking on my treadmill), BECAUSE I get better responsiveness compared to trying to skip forward and back when streaming. Except for rare problems (though admittedly more frequent lately, which I haven't conclusively linked to the new version of the iPad app).

So, if you have local storage to buffer, and can download faster than you can watch (including FF through commercials), I think the idea of a cloud DVR *could* be done well.

I don't claim it *will* (I think it will be closer to On Demand, where MOST of the time you can't skip commercials -- though lately I've seen a bunch of shows with ABSOLUTELY 0 commercials in the On Demand versions!!! As opposed to the "shrink to very very short commercial breaks a few days after the original airing")... But in theory, having it all in the cloud COULD mean "infinite tuners and infinite storage".


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## lgnad (Feb 14, 2013)

lol everybody panic!!!

So.... Tivo doesn't need to design any major new hardware for a while, and so they get rid of a couple people in that department. 

I shall now go take a sledghammer to my Premier in effigy.


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## siratfus (Oct 3, 2008)

The folks who paid lifetime for replaytv, are they still be serviced? If my Roamio goes on for 5 yrs then I'll be happy. Anything less than that, I'll be pissed.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

siratfus said:


> The folks who paid lifetime for replaytv, are they still be serviced? If my Roamio goes on for 5 yrs then I'll be happy. Anything less than that, I'll be pissed.


Yes, ReplayTV lifetime still receives TV info, as does automatic commercial advance!! 
I too was worried about lifetime for TiVos going away.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The announcement only means that Tivo won't be designing any new boxes unless they change their mind down the road and bring in new designers. I sincerely doubt that the Roamio or any other current hardware being sold will disappear anytime soon. Based on what I recall from the original article, it sounds like Tivo wants to concentrate on licensing their software to cable TV providers for use on the cableco's DVRs. I seem to recall that they did this a while back with Comcast or some other provider and it met with mixed results. They must have something in the works that will improve upon this so we'll just have to wait and see what transpires.


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

I'm convinced that the bulk of the Tivo hardware resources are third party already. Industrial design are the guys that make things appealing for consumers. There is no need for that with a cloud based DVR.

A next gen consumer Tivo might rely completely on third party hardware team. Not a big deal.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

rainwater said:


> Bandwidth caps will not apply to a cloud based DVR managed by the cable company.


Yeah... no matter how you get your video in the future, you're at the mercy of the Cable cos, since they are the sole source of broadband in most areas of the country. Treating them as common carrier utilities with heavy government regulation is a proposed solution, but this may be a cure worse than the disease. Can you say "everyone gets 10 Mbps download speeds with no caps, for only $200/mo., with frequent outages" ?


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

Interesting to see how this goes.

While I expect TiVo is not done with hardware altogether, it sounds like the main focus is elsewhere. It will be interesting to see if these cloud based dvr's go anywhere and cable companies adapt them over the next few years.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> The announcement only means that Tivo won't be designing any new boxes unless they change their mind down the road and bring in new designers.


Or they contract it out, which is more likely.

In fact, I'd wonder whether they aren't already making extensive use of contract design firms to supplement the very limited staff that was just laid off.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

Is TiVo hardware really that special, aside from the chip that contains the licensing information?

Some memory, a moca/wifi/ethernet adapter, off the shelf disk drive, power supply, 3rd party tuner, cable card decoders, usb bus, CPU, case.
Doesn't seem to be anything really specialized.

Maybe Im wrong.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

TiVo didn't do hardware for a long time of their initial product lines. This initially worried me, but TiVo has since put out the fire. Plenty of OEMs out there are perfectly capable of building TiVo hardware for them (and already do, to TiVo's specs) and plenty of capable industrial design firms out there can design new hardware that doesn't suck on contract.

It truly is sad for the people who lost their jobs, but, they are in an industry that is booming, I hope and am confident they will land on their feet.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

TiVo never manufactured hardware themselves - it has always been contracted out. They have designed the hardware, though. I'm waiting for folks such as Dave Zatz to tell us what really happened and what it means.


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## Sixto (Sep 16, 2005)

They did announce the Pace relationship a while ago. May just rely on 3rd-party partnerships.

Pace: http://pr.tivo.com/press-releases/t...rst-pace-product-with-tiv-nasdaq-tivo-0889675

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-10/why-pace-may-be-thinking-about-buying-tivo/


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## DeltaBill (Dec 15, 2003)

I'm not worried about Tivo getting out of the hardware business as they have been working with Pace since 2012. The hardware specs on the Tivo branded cable STBs and the Roamio plus are nearly indentical and both are using the same software. 

By working with 3rd party hardware vendors Tivo should be able to reduce the cost of their product while at the same time supplying the exact same units as that offered by the cable companies.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

If anything Sony or Samsung will be the hardware providers. I was quite surprised tivo lasted this long , without a mega-corp buying them


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> If anything Sony or Samsung will be the hardware providers.


That seems doubtful. My guess is they would extend their partnership with Pace.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

TiVo has used Pace and Solectron. They might contract out the hardware design as well. (It is not widely known that most laptops are primarily designed by contract manufacturers.)


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## tbielowicz (Apr 16, 2009)

I have no doubt that they are going to leave the hardware design/development and build to a third party. Their IP is the Software and that is their strength. The weak link has always been the hardware. It has always been under powered and way behind in technology. Many of the software issues were due to the hardware limitations or issues.

The Roamio was probably their greatest leap, so it was a nice swan song for the previous hardware team. But in the end, they will have a small team that will establish the minimum hardware requirements and leave the design to others. Makes sense to me.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Maybe they're going to re-release a PC version (a la Nero LiquidTV) and we can grow our own, as well as a Roku channel as the new "TiVo Mini", etc.?


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

Back in the S1 and S2 days, we had Tivo units from multiple vendors, Humax, Toshiba, Sony (I think) plus others, and they all worked well enough. I had a Toshiba Tivo S2 with a DVD burner in it and it worked quite well until the DVD drive died in it. I had a Sony SVR-1000 S1 unit as my first Tivo. 

Tivo relying on someone else to do the hardware as a ODM wouldn't surprise me, which is what we have all the time with Dell, HP, Acer, ASUS, etc. Companies like Foxconn, Compal, Quanta and numerous other ones out there do the ODM work for major companies all the time. I hope this wouldn't be any different. 

I'm sure Tivo manufacturing is contracted out to a third party company anyway, so it would just be another vendor's logo on the box.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

shrike4242 said:


> Back in the S1 and S2 days, we had Tivo units from multiple vendors, Humax, Toshiba, Sony (I think) plus others, and they all worked well enough. I had a Toshiba Tivo S2 with a DVD burner in it and it worked quite well until the DVD drive died in it. I had a Sony SVR-1000 S1 unit as my first Tivo.
> 
> Tivo relying on someone else to do the hardware as a ODM wouldn't surprise me, which is what we have all the time with Dell, HP, Acer, ASUS, etc. Companies like Foxconn, Compal, Quanta and numerous other ones out there do the ODM work for major companies all the time. I hope this wouldn't be any different.
> 
> I'm sure Tivo manufacturing is contracted out to a third party company anyway, so it would just be another vendor's logo on the box.


It doesn't even have to be another vendor's logo on the box. They laid off some hardware design guys. There's no reason that those tasks couldn't be done by a contract design firm, and still manufactured by someone like Pace or Technicolor to TiVo's specifications with TiVo still handling the marketing, support, etc.


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## randian (Jan 15, 2014)

They're concentrating on software. Great! So when are they going to fix longstanding bugs and UI misfeatures?


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

JosephB said:


> It doesn't even have to be another vendor's logo on the box. They laid off some hardware design guys. There's no reason that those tasks couldn't be done by a contract design firm, and still manufactured by someone like Pace or Technicolor to TiVo's specifications with TiVo still handling the marketing, support, etc.


If they've been doing business with Pace since 2012, it wouldn't shock me if Pace starting making the Tivo hardware, with a "Pace DVR with Tivo technolory" or some other blurb to go with it. They would also probably do the design with Tivo's input.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

There isn't a ton more they can really do on the hardware side anyway. The Roamio is almost perfect hardware wise. 6 tuners is the max for the CableCARD spec and 3TB is plenty of space for the average joe. They have built in transcoding and enough CPU power to run their UI at a respectible speed. I'm not sure there is anywhere else to go from here. Every feature I can think of that I'd want could be accomplished via software on the Roamio.

Although I was hoping we'd see an add-on OTA tuner for the Romaio Plus/Pro and maybe an add-on BD player, so I guess those hopes are dashed.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> maybe an add-on BD player, so I guess those hopes are dashed.


I dunno. If anything, this turn of events makes it more likely, as the only TiVos that had disc playback features were all from third-parties. Probably still pretty unlikely - BluRay disc sales volume still trails DVDs and TiVos are already super-niche. A BD TiVo would be a niche within a niche.

edit: I know you said add-on and I'm talking about a combo unit, but I think we agree the chances of either are slim


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

If you "LIKE YOUR PLAN", you can keep your plan....


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> There isn't a ton more they can really do on the hardware side anyway. The Roamio is almost perfect hardware wise. 6 tuners is the max for the CableCARD spec and 3TB is plenty of space for the average joe. They have built in transcoding and enough CPU power to run their UI at a respectible speed. I'm not sure there is anywhere else to go from here. Every feature I can think of that I'd want could be accomplished via software on the Roamio.
> 
> Although I was hoping we'd see an add-on OTA tuner for the Romaio Plus/Pro and maybe an add-on BD player, so I guess those hopes are dashed.


I would have to agree, since the Plus/Pro have GigE, WiFi and MoCA connectivity, so that covers all the network angles.

3TB is 450hr of HD storage and an obscene number of SD hours of various quality levels, so that should be enough for most people.

6 tuners should cover most people's simultaneous recording options and if you need more, get a second unit. Every other TV, hook a Mini to it. Streaming, both in and out-of-home is covered with the Plus/Pro.

Only thing I could see going forward might be larger drives and *Amazon Prime Video streaming*, though they don't need new hardware to get that right, just the right Amazon app that doesn't date back to the S3 days.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

I don't think this changes anything at all. It doesn't mean that they are going to start outsourcing the branding and design of products like they did in the DirecTiVo or Series 1/2 days. They got rid of 5 people who worked in hardware design, and they don't have any new hardware coming out for at least 2 years if not more. Doesn't mean we're instantly going to start seeing Toshiba or Pace or Sony TiVos. Just means that if and when they get ready to do something beyond Series 5, they'll have to figure something else out. They weren't likely to replace the Roamios in the next 3 years, and the next 3 years are going to be VERY consequential to the cable industry, the CableCard standard, and retail cable device landscape.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

great now we can pay 20 dollars per box, per month to our cable companies FOREVER. for a 3BDR house plus LR thats around 4 boxes @ $80 bucks a month lets say 100 bucks after "DVR service" for a total of $1200 a year forever.


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## randian (Jan 15, 2014)

I can see networking upgrades (802.11ac), more RAM (dirt cheap), and a faster CPU (pretty much SOP for new revs of an SOC).


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

JosephB said:


> I don't think this changes anything at all. It doesn't mean that they are going to start outsourcing the branding and design of products like they did in the DirecTiVo or Series 1/2 days. They got rid of 5 people who worked in hardware design, and they don't have any new hardware coming out for at least 2 years if not more. Doesn't mean we're instantly going to start seeing Toshiba or Pace or Sony TiVos. Just means that if and when they get ready to do something beyond Series 5, they'll have to figure something else out. They weren't likely to replace the Roamios in the next 3 years, and the next 3 years are going to be VERY consequential to the cable industry, the CableCard standard, and retail cable device landscape.


IT means the end of days for retail Tivos. The last generation is the Roamio. That seems like a change.

Going forward there is little to no point in trying to sell $750 boxes to consumers so they can watch video when the tech is out there to watch time shifted video on a small form factor, efficient $80 AppleTV or Roku.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> IT means the end of days for retail Tivos. The last generation is the Roamio. That seems like a change.


Nope. It doesn't mean the end of retail hardware.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I guess I am curious about the software direction. If they are going to be more in bed with the cable companies will the software throw all the non cable company things like Netflix/...

When you look at a Direct TV Tivo you know what I mean!


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> There isn't a ton more they can really do on the hardware side anyway. The Roamio is almost perfect hardware wise. 6 tuners is the max for the CableCARD spec and 3TB is plenty of space for the average joe. They have built in transcoding and enough CPU power to run their UI at a respectible speed. I'm not sure there is anywhere else to go from here. Every feature I can think of that I'd want could be accomplished via software on the Roamio.
> 
> Although I was hoping we'd see an add-on OTA tuner for the Romaio Plus/Pro and maybe an add-on BD player, so I guess those hopes are dashed.


Down the road a bit they might make it a bit snappier, partly for the apps, but that's probably a matter of dropping some future (higher performance) compatible broadcom chipset in, or adding more RAM (for the software side to use for more agressing cacheing)

But neither of those require major hardware design chops.

Now, I _would_ like it if TiVo could do a really good integrated blu-ray player (along the lines of the old Toshiba TiVo/DVD). Most blu-ray remotes / players still have lousy UIs; being able to use TiVo trick-play would be a nice touch. But there's probably not enough market to justify it


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

vurbano said:


> great now we can pay 20 dollars per box, per month to our cable companies FOREVER. for a 3BDR house plus LR thats around 4 boxes @ $80 bucks a month lets say 100 bucks after "DVR service" for a total of $1200 a year forever.





trip1eX said:


> IT means the end of days for retail Tivos. The last generation is the Roamio. That seems like a change.
> 
> Going forward there is little to no point in trying to sell $750 boxes to consumers so they can watch video when the tech is out there to watch time shifted video on a small form factor, efficient $80 AppleTV or Roku.


I think you guys are getting a little ahead of yourselves. While I agree that the stand alone DVR market isn't likely large enough to keep TiVo around, the reality is that the Roamio line was most likely developed for cable operators and will likely be used by them for years as they tend to not like changing equipment (which is also likely why the Premiere is receiving as much attention as it is from TiVo).

The reality is there is no reason for TiVo to need any new hardware for several (maybe even 3-4) years and at that time TiVo will go with the market, not lead it. If cable companies still want DVRs TiVo will update their hard ware and continue to provide whole home DVR system (along with new Stand alone versions). If the market does change and IP on demand/cloud storage becomes the norm then their will be little need for an updated "cable" DVR and TiVo will continue to sell Roamios for as long as there is a market for them.

In any event I don't think it really matter much to us, as long as cable/OTA exists in its current format we will be able to use Roamio DVRs, most of what needs to be fixed/updated is software and TiVo is still working on that.


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

Q and A with Tivo's Steve Wymer:
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/01/tivos-steve-wymer-lays-out-his-companys-current-and-future-hardware-plans/


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## wco81 (Dec 28, 2001)

I'm skeptical about the whole NDVR business.

Rather have control over my recordings, not have them expire for whatever reasons off my cloud locker.


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## MHunter1 (Oct 11, 2007)

SNJpage1 said:


> Let someone else make the boxes and then let them buy the rights to put TiVo's software into them


I consider it good news if TiVo licenses their OS to third-party manufacturers so there's more competition to provide a better product. For example, Microsoft licenses Windows to many PC brands who each compete for our business by offering unique features, services, and technical support that result in faster responses to bug fixes and feature requests. TiVo will no longer dictate prices, service, and hardware choices like Apple does.

Imagine a Windows desktop PC that has the TiVo OS built in, similar to the Asus Duet with Windows and Android. A dedicated power supply keeps the DVR active 24/7 and you access your content through a TiVo Mini on each TV. You could have unlimited network-attached storage, Blu-Ray disc playback in the PC tray would respond to TiVo's familiar trickplay controls, and the upgradeable DVR module could be offered in an array of processor speeds, available tuners, and streaming options.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

None of this signals any change at all to the way TiVo is doing business or will do business. The Roamios have a long life ahead of them and there's no way to know what TiVo will do for their next generation of retail DVRs, even if they hadn't laid off some number of employees that work on hardware.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

Johncv said:


> This explains the email I receive with a big discount on the Romeo box and the fact that TiVo is giving away the Premiere box. Look like TiVo is unloading their inventory. The summer software update, assuming we receive it, will be the last TiVo update. This is sad day for all of us who supported TiVo.


when? I'd like to see a discount on Roamio's....they seem to be full price right now


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## MHunter1 (Oct 11, 2007)

tvmaster2 said:


> I'd like to see a discount on Roamio's


Customers who signed up for TiVo's survey panel received a courtesy coupon code by email and/or postal mail offering a discount for upgrading to Roamio.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=513822


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## ort (Jan 5, 2004)

To me all this says is that they aren't planning on releasing a new box anytime soon.

And why would they? The offerings they have now should be good for at least 3-4 years.

Why pay hardware designers for years when you don't need them? It's a tough world out there.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

MHunter1 said:


> ...........Imagine a Windows desktop PC that has the TiVo OS built in, similar to the Asus Duet with Windows and Android. A dedicated power supply keeps the DVR active 24/7 and you access your content through a TiVo Mini on each TV. You could have unlimited network-attached storage, Blu-Ray disc playback in the PC tray would respond to TiVo's familiar trickplay controls, and the upgradeable DVR module could be offered in an array of processor speeds, available tuners, and streaming options.


Is there an echo in here? (And no, I'm not referring to the horrible Ceton product!)


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

Here's a good follow-up article from ArsTechnica about this situation, in a conversation with Steve Wymer:

http://arstechnica.com/business/201...s-companys-current-and-future-hardware-plans/


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

Johncv said:


> This explains the email I receive with a big discount on the Romeo box and the fact that TiVo is giving away the Premiere box. Look like TiVo is unloading their inventory. *The summer software update, assuming we receive it, will be the last TiVo update. *This is sad day for all of us who supported TiVo.


don't say things and purport them to be truth, without anything to back it up. This just causes mass hysteria.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

wco81 said:


> I'm skeptical about the whole NDVR business.
> 
> Rather have control over my recordings, not have them expire for whatever reasons off my cloud locker.


also what's to stop them from allowing commercial skip? Then it's just a Hulu box.


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

Johncv said:


> This explains the email I receive with a big discount on the Romeo box and the fact that TiVo is giving away the Premiere box. Look like TiVo is unloading their inventory.* The summer software update, assuming we receive it, will be the last TiVo update.* This is sad day for all of us who supported TiVo.


I'd love to see a link posted to this being the case. Tivo keeps doing SW updates well past the point of the HW no longer being sold, as my S3 was getting updates at least 1-2 years past when it stopped being sold.

I don't expect this to be any different with the Premiere and Roamio units, as they should still be getting SW updates well into 2015 before they stop doing updates.


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## wco81 (Dec 28, 2001)

I wonder if Broadcom would have a reference DVR design for their future processors.

Of course, the standalone DVR business isn't that healthy so who knows how much money Tivos bring to Broadcom.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

They FINALLY released a really good piece of hardware and then they do this? Crazy..


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

aadam101 said:


> They FINALLY released a really good piece of hardware and then they do this? Crazy..


What did they do exactly? They laid off a few hardware designers. Did you want them to design new hardware to be released this year?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I know I was hoping they would have a new TiVo Mini. One that had wireless remote capability built in. That could scale everything to 1080P60. And had WiFi built in as well.
I would sell my current TiVos mInis to replace them if that happened.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

reneg said:


> Q and A with Tivo's Steve Wymer:
> http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/01/tivos-steve-wymer-lays-out-his-companys-current-and-future-hardware-plans/


I'd like to call out one part of that Q&A:

Is TiVo exiting the hardware business?
Emphatically, no.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> I know I was hoping they would have a new TiVo Mini. One that had wireless remote capability built in. That could scale everything to 1080P60. And had WiFi built in as well.
> I would sell my current TiVos mInis to replace them if that happened.


60? you want everything to have an extra frames added soap opera effect?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

b_scott said:


> 60? you want everything to have an extra frames added soap opera effect?


That has nothing to do with the soap opera effect. The Soap Opera effect is caused by TVs that create new frames in between the existing ones by interpolating the data of two frames and creating a new one in between.

When you use 3:2 pulldown, or even 5:5 or 10:10 for 120hz and 240hz Tvs, that does not create the soap opera effect because they are just repeating the same frame multiple times. Not creating frames with new information.

With the TiVo set for 1080P60 output, you don't get the long delay when the resolution changes. With the Roamio set to 1080P60 output, it is under a second when switching channels that have different resolutions. So it would be nice for the Mini to have the same options as the Roamio does for resolution and frame rate output.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

hmm. I don't get a long delay, I just set everything to 1080i.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> That has nothing to do with the soap opera effect. The Soap Opera effect is caused by TVs that create new frames in between the existing ones by interpolating the data of two frames and creating a new one in between.


Hmmm... I don't think this is entirely true. Any video that comes in at 60FPS, if it's interpolated or actually in the source. Either way, we associate that frame rate with "soap operas."

Like, if you went to see the Hobbit movies at 60FPS, you got that affect.

Right?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> Hmmm... I don't think this is entirely true. Any video that comes in at 60FPS, if it's interpolated or actually in the source. Either way, we associate that frame rate with "soap operas."
> 
> Like, if you went to see the Hobbit movies at 60FPS, you got that affect.
> 
> Right?


That is completely different. Each frame is different. A normal movie in the theater runs at 48FPS with every frame duplicated from the normal 24FPS. Otherwise just about every 1080P HDTv made would have the Soap Opera effect since they were 60FPS. But that is not the case. The only time I've ever seen the soap opera effect on a Tv is when that frame interpolation had been on. For instance my Parents Tv has it and my dad leaves it on. I hate watching Tv there. I've owned around a dozen HDTVs and I've never owned one that had the Soap Opera Effect. And if i ever do own one that had that interpolation feature, it will be turned off.

EDIT: also the Hobbit was filmed in 48 FPS not 60 FPS. I personally do not like it. I saw the first Hobbit movie in 48FPS but avoided it for the second Hobbit movie.

'The Hobbit' at 48fps: Frame Rates Explained



> ...You may have also heard of the "soap opera" effect, which occurs with some recent high-definition television sets that feature 120Hz or 240Hz modes, instead of just the usual 60Hz. (The frame rate is usually expressed as "Hz" with progressive scan monitors; hence, 60Hz instead of 60 fps). The frame rate of the source material is independent of the refresh rate of the TV. Instead, what's happening here is that the TV, using its own software, is interpolating what would have been in the original source material, had there been extra frames, and adds them on its own for a smoother effect. The problem is that it also looks somewhat unnatural, or dreamy, and more like an older live TV camera than proper film footage. I personally don't like it. I turn this mode off on my own 120Hz set, and while I've seen countless 240Hz HDTVs, I have yet to warm up to the effect........


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## celtic pride (Nov 8, 2005)

Is funny how everybody thinks differently about things like the soap opera effect on tvs ,My wife and i love the soap opera effect! I must admit it took a little getting used too,but i always leave it on! my wife and i actually bought our samsung tv because we loved how the the soap opera effect looked while watching the batman movie on it at best buy!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

celtic pride said:


> Is funny how everybody thinks differently about things like the soap opera effect on tvs ,My wife and i love the soap opera effect! I must admit it took a little getting used too,but i always leave it on!


I think for me it's just that for over four decades I watched content in a way that became normal to me. So the Soap effect seems abnormal. If I had grown up with it I wouldn't mind it. But when you've watched thousands of movies for over 40 years and they look a certain way, to see the same movies look very different with the Soap Opera effect just doesn't look right to me.

My Dad is near 80 and has the Soap Opera effect set on with his SONy LCD HDTv but he doesn't usually watch the HDTV. He sits at his desk and the same content is sent to an old tube TV which looks like what I'm used to seeing. And my Mom doesn't even want to watch the HD channels on the Tv preferring to watch the SD channels. So between both of them I really hate watching TV there when I visit.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

celtic pride said:


> Is funny how everybody thinks differently about things like the soap opera effect on tvs ,My wife and i love the soap opera effect! I must admit it took a little getting used too,but i always leave it on!


It is likely that it all boils down to what you are used to. From a technical standpoint, higher fps is "better". But personal preferences can differ. This is true not just about fps, but other aspects of video as well. For example, I have a friend that absolutely hates 16:9 aspect ratio and says she is sticking with her 4:3 CRT until it dies. And I, personally, dislike computer animation and prefer traditional hand-drawn animation. But like it or not eventually all TV's will probably be 16:9 and all animation will likely be computer generated, and all video will eventually have a higher frame rate. It's called "progress".


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It is likely that it all boils down to what you are used to. From a technical standpoint, higher fps is "better". But personal preferences can differ. This is true not just about fps, but other aspects of video as well. For example, I have a friend that absolutely hates 16:9 aspect ratio and says she is sticking with her 4:3 CRT until it dies. And I, personally, dislike computer animation and prefer traditional hand-drawn animation. But like it or not eventually all TV's will probably be 16:9 and all animation will likely be computer generated, and all video will eventually have a higher frame rate. It's called "progress".


There is no technical standpoint on which you can say more FPS is "better". In this context it is a purely subjective standard. It's like saying "onions are technically better, but some people just don't like them"


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

JosephB said:


> There is no technical standpoint on which you can say more FPS is "better". In this context it is a purely subjective standard. It's like saying "onions are technically better, but some people just don't like them"


Is 1080p technically better than 720p? Is 4k technically better than 1080p? Is 8k technically better than 4k? The answer is yes. And in the same way that a higher resolution is always technically better than a lower resolution, a higher frame rate is always technically better than a lower frame rate, because it gets you closer and closer to reality. Now, from a subjective standpoint, some people might not like to watch video on a screen and have it look closer to reality than they have grown accustomed to.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Is 1080p technically better than 720p? Is 4k technically better than 1080p? Is 8k technically better than 4k? The answer is yes. And in the same way that a higher resolution is always technically better than a lower resolution, a higher frame rate is always technically better than a lower frame rate, because it gets you closer and closer to reality. Now, from a subjective standpoint, some people might not like to watch video on a screen and have it look closer to reality than they have grown accustomed to.


I agree completely. If "soap opera effect" refers to using interpolated frames to make action appear smoother, I'm all for it. There may be some problems with implementation (partly due to limited processing power), and it can't remove blur in the frames being interpolated, but it often helps IMNSHO. My ideal would be for the picture I see to appear just like I'm looking through a window at the action.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Is 1080p technically better than 720p? Is 4k technically better than 1080p? Is 8k technically better than 4k? The answer is yes. And in the same way that a higher resolution is always technically better than a lower resolution, a higher frame rate is always technically better than a lower frame rate, because it gets you closer and closer to reality. Now, from a subjective standpoint, some people might not like to watch video on a screen and have it look closer to reality than they have grown accustomed to.


But they're not always technically better. Just as megapixel vs. sensor size in digital cameras over the past few years have begun to show, there's more to the implementation of a technology than one raw number.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

JosephB said:


> But they're not always technically better. Just as megapixel vs. sensor size in digital cameras over the past few years have begun to show, there's more to the implementation of a technology than one raw number.


Certainly there could be technological challenges and limitations to implementing a higher frame rate properly. But assuming no hardware or software limitations, a higher frame rate (and higher resolution) is technically better.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

JosephB said:


> But they're not always technically better. Just as megapixel vs. sensor size in digital cameras over the past few years have begun to show, there's more to the implementation of a technology than one raw number.


All things being equal?


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

waynomo said:


> All things being equal?


All things being equal, it still depends. And no, not always better. At some point cramming more pixels into a CCD or CMOS sensor wasn't doing anything to improve the picture and became detrimental to the image quality. Same thing might be said about framerate. It's like video card reviews that framerate is the only thing they test. Image quality is just as important. FPS is not the most important statistic and might take away from others if improperly prioritized.

At any rate, my point was that something like framerate is purely subjective. "More" doesn't mean better. We're not trying to get to goal in a faster amount of time like a faster CPU. We're trying to get the best looking image.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

JosephB said:


> At any rate, my point was that something like framerate is purely subjective. "More" doesn't mean better.


"More" might not always mean "better" once we get to the point where the human eye can no longer distinguish between higher frame rates and higher image resolutions, but until that day comes "more" will mean "better" from a purely technical point of view. I'm sure if you look hard enough you could find people that prefer the look of SD to HD or prefer black and white TV to color TV. That's a subjective preference, but from a technical perspective of making video on a screen appear as close to reality as possible, those people are just wrong.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

I GIVE UP
The sky is pink
Up is down
Whatever you say!


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

JosephB said:


> I GIVE UP
> The sky is pink
> Up is down
> Whatever you say!


I call this the two minute test, walk into a room with a HDTV and look at the picture, is it sharp and clear or blurry (to you), if sharp and clear I don't care what the frame rate or resolution is if I like the picture, on some news programs they will show a TV tape made in the 60s or 70s, looks awful. Most new HDTV 65" or under do a great job with HD program material, on big sets like 110" some of these other specs may make a difference that one could notice, I don't have such a big TV so I don't know, but I do have a 80" high end Sharp HDTV that I think looks so much better than the 8 year old DLP it replaced, I am one happy camper.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

rainwater said:


> Nope. It doesn't mean the end of retail hardware.


It does. At least in the form we are accustomed to seeing the Tivo name associated with. It won't happen overnight. Roamio is fine for many years yet.

But the way I see it is things are getting awful close to the breaking point because, today, we can watch video any time we want through graphical user interfaces on hockey-puck sized devices costing less than $100 without any need to schedule a recording in advance.

That's today. Go out 3 or 4 or 5 years. Seems pretty obvious this type of device/service will replace the old way.

It is all really nothing more than "Netflix-izing" cable tv.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> That's today. Go out 3 or 4 or 5 years. Seems pretty obvious this type of device/service will replace the old way.
> 
> It is all really nothing more than "Netflix-izing" cable tv.


Until cable companies completely eliminate linear channels and convert their entire bandwidth capacity to IP/VOD, there will still be a market for DVRs. Time Warner probably won't even phase out analog channels for another 3 to 5 years, so at the glacial pace with which they move it'll be 2040 before that happens, if ever.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

trip1eX said:


> It does. At least in the form we are accustomed to seeing the Tivo name associated with. It won't happen overnight. Roamio is fine for many years yet.
> 
> But the way I see it is things are getting awful close to the breaking point because, today, we can watch video any time we want through graphical user interfaces on hockey-puck sized devices costing less than $100 without any need to schedule a recording in advance.
> 
> ...


TiVo may not release another retail DVR, who knows. But this particular development in their workforce doesn't mean that is happening. They likely don't know what they're going to do for the next series of retail DVRs. They may have a roadmap and plans, but to try to read anything into these 4 or 5 people being reassigned or laid off is not useful.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> That is completely different. Each frame is different. A normal movie in the theater runs at 48FPS with every frame duplicated from the normal 24FPS. Otherwise just about every 1080P HDTv made would have the Soap Opera effect since they were 60FPS. But that is not the case. The only time I've ever seen the soap opera effect on a Tv is when that frame interpolation had been on. For instance my Parents Tv has it and my dad leaves it on. I hate watching Tv there. I've owned around a dozen HDTVs and I've never owned one that had the Soap Opera Effect. And if i ever do own one that had that interpolation feature, it will be turned off.


All HDTVs do 60FPS, but you don't notice, cause they double the frames. But if the source were in 60FPS, it would LOOK like the soap opera effect. It happens because we aren't used to seeing 60FPS from movies and TV shows. The reason you have only seen it on TVs with interpolation is because thats the only way you're seeing a 60FPS source. Movies and TV shows aren't filmed in 60FPS and even when your TV is showing 60FPS or the source material is in 60FPS (according to the HDMI cable or whatever) it's still only showing a movie or TV show that was filmed in 60FPS. Showing the same frame twice is seen by your eyes as a single frame showed for double the amount of time.

Again, I'm not seeing anything you're saying here that contradicts what I am pretty sure I read. Anytime you see something in > 30FPS, it's going to have the soap opera effect. This is because soap operas are filmed at a higher frame rate because they are a weird kind of video instead of film. Something that's much cheaper to film in.



> EDIT: also the Hobbit was filmed in 48 FPS not 60 FPS. I personally do not like it. I saw the first Hobbit movie in 48FPS but avoided it for the second Hobbit movie.
> 
> 'The Hobbit' at 48fps: Frame Rates Explained


Ok, sure, 48. It's still > 30, which is the point. I like it. I think it made the movies look sharp and clear. And I think the 2nd one did a much better job than the first one at making it so you didn't find yourself looking at the makeup on Gandalf's nose going "wow, that's loreal's finest" or whatever.

My TV does interpolation. I did turn it off for the TV input, but left it on for the video game/BD input.

You get used to it. It's better.

It's like back when people watched letter boxed movies and said "i don't like it because you can't see the whole movie." That's because they believed they were seeing the whole movie before. Eventually, people will be informed and source material will start being filmed in >30fps and we'll all like it.

edit: to be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm no expert... I'm saying, this is my understanding, and you've yet to actually dispute it directly. You're kind of dancing around my point. I know interpolation causes it... but so does ANYTHING which produces a > 30 FPS source.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

JosephB said:


> All things being equal, it still depends. And no, not always better. At some point cramming more pixels into a CCD or CMOS sensor wasn't doing anything to improve the picture and became detrimental to the image quality. Same thing might be said about framerate. It's like video card reviews that framerate is the only thing they test. Image quality is just as important. FPS is not the most important statistic and might take away from others if improperly prioritized.
> 
> At any rate, my point was that something like framerate is purely subjective. "More" doesn't mean better. We're not trying to get to goal in a faster amount of time like a faster CPU. We're trying to get the best looking image.


I think PC gamers long ago settled on 80FPS as the highest rate that the human eye cares about. Anything higher ends up being wasted.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Until cable companies completely eliminate linear channels and convert their entire bandwidth capacity to IP/VOD, there will still be a market for DVRs. Time Warner probably won't even phase out analog channels for another 3 to 5 years, so at the glacial pace with which they move it'll be 2040 before that happens, if ever.


But Samsung stopped putting analog tuners in their tvs 3-4 years ago.

And cable companies already deliver video via IP to your pc or mobile device.

They don't need to completely switch over to start offering time shifted video to your Roku. And once the floodgates open.....


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> I think PC gamers long ago settled on 80FPS as the highest rate that the human eye cares about. Anything higher ends up being wasted.


Where did 80 come from? I'd say the number if even higher. But there is a limit to what you can perceive.

Also there is a difference between video and computer graphics when it comes to how high of a frame rate it takes for the eye not to be able to perceive a change in frame rate. Video has motion blur. Computer graphics are sharp-edged sorta speak. From what I've read that is why 24 frames a second is fine for movies. While 24 frames/sec is laggy in vidoegames.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> They don't need to completely switch over to start offering time shifted video to your Roku. And once the floodgates open.....


When ISPs get rid of data caps, let me know. I'm not holding my breath.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> When ISPs get rid of data caps, let me know. I'm not holding my breath.


NOthing to do with it.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> IT means the end of days for retail Tivos. The last generation is the Roamio. That seems like a change.
> 
> Going forward there is little to no point in trying to sell $750 boxes to consumers so they can watch video when the tech is out there to watch time shifted video on a small form factor, efficient $80 AppleTV or Roku.


I believe too that the days of retail Tivos is done, look at all the agreements that TiVo has signed with cable providers especially with the Pace box running Tivo software interface. Combine that with last year's appeals court ruling that may spell the end of cable cards.

http://www.lightreading.com/cable-video/bye-bye-cablecards/d/d-id/705873

With their announcement of reducing their in house engineers, their cloud based Dvr ideas the conclusion is simple, you can have your Tivo interface but it will be supplied by your cable company

Three years ago they were sueing cable co's over Dvr patients, but now most of those have been settled or dismissed. If you can't beat them, join them! The revenue model for working with the cable companies is just as high as selling subscriptions to a few people who want a retail TiVo, the majority of cable subscribers want a one stop Dvr solution and are turned away from dealing with both cable companies and Tivo, people like us here at TCF are a relatively small group when compared to the cable subscriber base.

While there might be a sixth generation Tivo, I bet the Roamio will be the last DVR that you will be able to buy, pop in a cable card and watch TV.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

I'm much less pessimistic about retail TiVos than some of you.

Remember, TiVo was not in the hardware business when they started off, only entered the hardware business a couple of years later when forced to, and has always said that they did not want to be in the hardware business. Getting rid of hardware engineers is not a surprise or a big change.

With all the cable company deals TiVo now has going for it, they can now offer a solid base of sales to hardware manufacturers like Pace. The retail market will just be an extra for such a manufacturer; not big enough to devote a separate product to it, but big enough to make money off of a slightly altered model.

I don't know whether the new models will be badged as TiVos, or whether TiVo will go back to their original scheme of the manufacturer being responsible for the sales. I suspect TiVo would like the latter but have to settle for the former.

In any case, I don't see any indication that TiVo is thinking of dropping the retail market - they now have very viable options going forward with the retail market without designing their own hardware (something they did not have before the cable company deals of the past few years).


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

eboydog said:


> I believe too that the days of retail Tivos is done, look at all the agreements that TiVo has signed with cable providers especially with the Pace box running Tivo software interface. Combine that with last year's appeals court ruling that may spell the end of cable cards.
> 
> http://www.lightreading.com/cable-video/bye-bye-cablecards/d/d-id/705873
> 
> ...


I agree as what could TiVo do to get someone to upgrade any Roamio 6 tuner TiVo with a Series 6 ? The Roamio 6 tuner is like the VCR of the early 90s, if it broke you may have purchased a new one but almost nobody upgraded to the SVHS VCR, I don't think ultra HD will be a big improvement except for screens over 65" that most people don't have (I saw a demo the two systems on a split screen 65" and the difference was not that great that I would spend the money to get ultra HD), so if cable Co.s starts some channels at ultra HD I would not purchase a Series 6 to record it. The Roamio 6 tuner is the end of the line for me (for at least the next 7 or more years) on purchasing any new TiVos, unless the mother board goes on one. The Roamio UI is fast enough and with OD and Netflix, and within 12 months a 4Tb DIY possible and some more fixes from TiVo down the road that will be it for me. Most people don't need more storage than the Pro gives, but if they do WK does offer a 4Tb option now.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

lessd said:


> I agree as what could TiVo do to get someone to upgrade any Roamio 6 tuner TiVo with a Series 6 ? The Roamio 6 tuner is like the VCR of the early 90s, if it broke you may have purchased a new one but almost nobody upgraded to the SVHS VCR, I don't think ultra HD will be a big improvement except for screens over 65" that most people don't have (I saw a demo the two systems on a split screen 65" and the difference was not that great that I would spend the money to get ultra HD), so if cable Co.s starts some channels at ultra HD I would not purchase a Series 6 to record it. The Roamio 6 tuner is the end of the line for me (for at least the next 7 or more years) on purchasing any new TiVos, unless the mother board goes on one. The Roamio UI is fast enough and with OD and Netflix, and within 12 months a 4Tb DIY possible and some more fixes from TiVo down the road that will be it for me. Most people don't need more storage than the Pro gives, but if they do WK does offer a 4Tb option now.


I agree. With the Roamio line of DVRs there is no need for TiVo to do a hardware refresh for years, so no reason to be spending money on hard ware design/development. As I said in another post TiVo will follow the market not lead it, what comes next is a function of where the market goes, which is also highly dependent on what happens with cable cards.


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