# OTA Antenna Help



## Dorv (Sep 28, 2004)

First, BIG thanks goes to that HD DVR for Free thread. Mine was installed today.

I'm only having one real problem. Prior to the DVR, I had my OTA Ant. plugged directly into the TV, and I got good signal for all of the networks, WB and UPN affiliates, etc, except for ABC. I can live without one, I guess 

However, plugging the antenna into the TiVo has produced CONSIDERABLY worse signals. I've read that its due to the splitting of that feed into two tuners, and that makese sense.

What has been everyone's best solution? I live on the second story of a three story appartment building, so putting the antenna in the attic really isn't an option. I HAD a RCA ANT525, because it was the highest amount of amplification per dollar at Best Buy. In response to my problems upon installation, I traded it out for a Terk HDTVlp Antenna Pro, which independant of ampflication seems to be a much better piece of equipment. However, it only provides 7-10db of amp'ing. To get the best reception, I've actually got the (indoor) antenna kind of taped to my balcony. Still no ABC, but I've also lost the UPN and WB affliates.

Its an In-Line amp, so I could replace it with another. Radio Shack had a 10db inline amp for $35 bucks... Worth it? Could I use both on the same line?

Ideas?


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## Runch Machine (Feb 7, 2002)

In order to give advise, we need to know what city you are in and what your zipcode is. Also, you can check antennaweb.org for antenna recommendations. 

Is the antenna you have the Terk HDTVi? It looks like you have a typo. 

Do you know how far you are from the TV Towers that serve your city? Are you sure you need an amplified antenna? Often amplified antennas cause more problems.


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## Dorv (Sep 28, 2004)

Here's my antenna web info:

*	yellow - uhf	KSHB-DT	41.1	NBC	KANSAS CITY	MO 84°	12.8	42
*	yellow - uhf	KMCI-DT	38.1	IND	LAWRENCE	KS 84°	12.8	36
*	yellow - vhf	KMBC-DT	9.1	ABC	KANSAS CITY	MO 57°	15.8	7
*	yellow - uhf	KCPT-DT	19.1	PBS	KANSAS CITY	MO 60°	17.5	18
*	yellow - uhf	KCWE-DT	29.1	UPN	KANSAS CITY	MO 57°	15.8	31
*	yellow - uhf	KPXE-DT	50.1	i	KANSAS CITY	MO 72°	14.3	51
*	green - uhf	KSMO-DT	62.1	WB KANSAS CITY	MO 59°	18.1	47
*	red - uhf	KCTV-DT	5.1	CBS	KANSAS CITY	MO 52°	12.2	24
*	red - uhf	WDAF-DT	4.1	FOX	KANSAS CITY	MO 50°	11.7	34
*	violet - uhf	KTWU-DT	11.1	PBS	TOPEKA	KS 273°	53.6	23

(That's 66219, if it isn't in there).

The antenna that I'm using right now is this one: http://www.audiovox.com/webapp/wcs/...10001&storeId=10001&productId=14196&langId=-1

I've played around with everything enough to think I'm doing better with the amplification, but, I'm not REAL sure, either.

Thanks again in advance!


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## Javier005 (Mar 23, 2006)

Have you considered a multidirectional outdoor antenna? All of your towers are within 20 miles in kansas city. I think you can find an amplified antenna as well

Javier005


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Both RCA and Terk antennas are pure crap. Go for something better in a ChannelMaster or Winegard. But, I agree, you really need to go outside (and you'll have to with those puppies).


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Your ABC station is the only one on VHF which probably is why your antenna isn't doing too well. Some UHF antennas do fairly well with the upper band of VHF. I'm only 9 miles from my towers, yet I need a large outdoor antenna because of a hill between me and those towers.


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## Codewiz (Apr 14, 2004)

Go grab a Silver Sensor. Then go to radio shack and buy an amp. I tried all those crappy amped antennas from walmart, best buy and circuit city. The silver sensor by itself worked better. When I added the amp, I got all my stations in my town with a little help.

Of course that is until I get my HD Tivo which will kill my signal quality. I am going to get a CM4228 but that doesn't help your situation.


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## Dorv (Sep 28, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> Both RCA and Terk antennas are pure crap. Go for something better in a ChannelMaster or Winegard. But, I agree, you really need to go outside (and you'll have to with those puppies).


I looked at Winegard's site, and it looks like Terk either licsensed just directly copied the Winegard Sharpshooter. Its the exact same antenna that I have now.

I have it sitting on the patio now, and I've picked up one of the UPN/WB affiliates (don't care, nor remember), and my NBC reception is improved (I tried to watch something recorded last night, and it digitized itself so badly it was unwatchable).

Still no ABC. Signal doesn't get out of the 30s.

One thing that I've noticed, with all of the signals, is that the reception on both tuners is rarey equal. They move around alot, but never equally (the strong signaled freq's aren't as much of a problem). Is that normal?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Dorv said:


> I looked at Winegard's site, and it looks like Terk either licsensed just directly copied the Winegard Sharpshooter. Its the exact same antenna that I have now.
> 
> I have it sitting on the patio now, and I've picked up one of the UPN/WB affiliates (don't care, nor remember), and my NBC reception is improved (I tried to watch something recorded last night, and it digitized itself so badly it was unwatchable).
> 
> ...


Sounds like multipath to me...reflections off buildings, trees, etc. Do you have many of those around?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Codewiz said:


> ...Of course that is until I get my HD Tivo which will kill my signal quality...


I'm puzzled by that statement...what do you mean?


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## poppagene (Dec 29, 2001)

I had a similar problem. The tuners on my Hughes HTL-HD, voom box, LG LST-3510A and the Directv H20 all got more channels with better strength than the HR10-250. I asked for an in warranty replacement and the advanced replacement unit they sent me had even worse reception for over the air. I finally opened up the box and wondereed if the problem might be where the ota signal comes into the HR10-250 or in the interior cabling that runs from the back panel connection to the 2 tuners inside the unit. I tried hooking up the OTA antenna leads directly to the ATSC tuners inside the box and all my reception problems were eliminated. I tried replacing the cables from the back panel to the ATSC tuners without success so my conclusion is that the problem for me was occurring when the HR10-250 split the OTA signal to the 2 ATSC tuners. Now I just feed the signal into the box directly by running a cables through a vent hole and directly connecting to the ATSC tuners.

Check out this old thread for other possibilities: 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290785


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## rickaren (Oct 30, 2002)

poppagene said:


> I had a similar problem. The tuners on my Hughes HTL-HD, voom box, LG LST-3510A and the Directv H20 all got more channels with better strength than the HR10-250. I asked for an in warranty replacement and the advanced replacement unit they sent me had even worse reception for over the air. I finally opened up the box and wondereed if the problem might be where the ota signal comes into the HR10-250 or in the interior cabling that runs from the back panel connection to the 2 tuners inside the unit. I tried hooking up the OTA antenna leads directly to the ATSC tuners inside the box and all my reception problems were eliminated. I tried replacing the cables from the back panel to the ATSC tuners without success so my conclusion is that the problem for me was occurring when the HR10-250 split the OTA signal to the 2 ATSC tuners. Now I just feed the signal into the box directly by running a cables through a vent hole and directly connecting to the ATSC tuners.
> 
> Check out this old thread for other possibilities:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290785


We just had a channel down south of Indy go to full power today (WTTV) that I have never been able to receive north of Indianapolis here in Noblesville. I scanned for new local OTA with the HR10-250 but no signal found. Did the same with DISH's 622 VIP HD DVR and it found it (4-1 & 4-2) in the mid to high 50 readings. Still not enough to lock in but at least it found it. Strange that two receivers hooked to the same outside antenna gets such different results. Others have posted that some receivers pick-up OTA Locals better than others. Must agree. I understood this 3/4 years ago, but by now all OTA receivers should be about the same! Read before that the HR10-250 could not pick-up OTA as well as others. When I made some changes (removed one satellite DISH dish pointed @ 61.5) I lost some OTA channels on the HR-10 only but got them back when I added a powered splitter from Home Depot for the outside antenna that feeds both the D* and E* DVRs. There has not been any loss on the DISH much newer designed DVR, so maybe when D* brings out their replacement all present issues will be resolved. Could happen!


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## rickaren (Oct 30, 2002)

rickaren said:


> We just had a channel down south of Indy go to full power today (WTTV) that I have never been able to receive north of Indianapolis here in Noblesville. I scanned for new local OTA with the HR10-250 but no signal found. Did the same with DISH's 622 VIP HD DVR and it found it (4-1 & 4-2) in the mid to high 50 readings. Still not enough to lock in but at least it found it. Strange that two receivers hooked to the same outside antenna gets such different results. Others have posted that some receivers pick-up OTA Locals better than others. Must agree. I understood this 3/4 years ago, but by now all OTA receivers should be about the same! Read before that the HR10-250 could not pick-up OTA as well as others. When I made some changes (removed one satellite DISH dish pointed @ 61.5) I lost some OTA channels on the HR-10 only but got them back when I added a powered splitter from Home Depot for the outside antenna that feeds both the D* and E* DVRs. There has not been any loss on the DISH much newer designed DVR, so maybe when D* brings out their replacement all present issues will be resolved. Could happen!


UPDATE........

It's now after 11 PM Friday Night here and both 4-01 and 4-2 are coming in great using the DISH VIP 622 DVR with a signal strength of 66. This is the first time since I moved to Noblesville in 1977 that I could view WTTV 4, OTA!

Also it looks that some that have a HD TV with a built-in receiver has the highest signal running their antenna directly to their TV input. Since the DISH VIP 622 DVR has only one OTA input and the DirecTV HD Tivo DVR has two (split) that may cause a lower signal to that receiver.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

a search will yield how to overcome that split internal tuner..someone rigged up individual ones but i forget how


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## Codewiz (Apr 14, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> I'm puzzled by that statement...what do you mean?


I don't have an HD Tivo that splits the OTA yet. When I get my HD Tivo, I expect a big drop in signal strength which will probably lead me to buy a CM4228


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Dorv said:


> ...Still no ABC. Signal doesn't get out of the 30s.
> 
> One thing that I've noticed, with all of the signals, is that the reception on both tuners is rarey equal. They move around alot, but never equally (the strong signaled freq's aren't as much of a problem). Is that normal?


That is a classic indicator of interference, either multipath or intermod from tuner overload, which means for your location you need an antenna with higher directionality (since you can't raise it) and possibly attenuation. If your balcony faces the proper direction, I would go for a CM 4228, as that will still have the bandwidth to get Ch 9.1, even though it is actually a UHF antenna. Also, try a variable attenuator just before the input, as you may have too much signal. Depending upon how far away you are, an amp might be in order.

Don't put too much creedence in the "level" theories, as it would be very rare for a 2-way split to cause a loss of digital lock. Level is really not usually an issue for DT anyway, while multipath interference usually is a big issue. The only thing to solve that in your situation is a more-directional antenna with the proper bandwidth, thus the CM 4228 recommendation.

Do that first, and if you still have problems, tackle that later, with an attenuator or amp or even both (depending on how far away you are). FM traps can also work wonders if there is FM coming from the same location. While it would be discouraging to buy the antenna and see no improvement, rest assured that this is the proper first step and will make any further needed efforts eventually bear fruit rather than the antenna approach being going off in the wrong direction.

The reason the HR10 doesn't receive as well is not because of the internal distribution, but due to the tuners just not being that good to begin with. If you are in a iffy location, your HDTV may work fine while the HR10 does not. Improving the antenna system is the cure.


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## Runch Machine (Feb 7, 2002)

Since you are about 15 miles from most of the stations you need to get, I recommend the Terk HDTVi. You do not need an amplified antenna because you are reasonably close to the transmitters. While I normally agree that most Terk antennas are junk, this one antenna is a knock off of the Silver sensor. I have compared these two antennas and found the Terk version to be slightly better by about 2 db. 

An advantage the Terk has is that it has ariels that you can pull out for VHF. It sells for $40 at Circuit City or $23 at on line dealers.


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## annenoe (Oct 19, 2003)

poppagene said:


> I had a similar problem. The tuners on my Hughes HTL-HD, voom box, LG LST-3510A and the Directv H20 all got more channels with better strength than the HR10-250. I asked for an in warranty replacement and the advanced replacement unit they sent me had even worse reception for over the air. I finally opened up the box and wondereed if the problem might be where the ota signal comes into the HR10-250 or in the interior cabling that runs from the back panel connection to the 2 tuners inside the unit. I tried hooking up the OTA antenna leads directly to the ATSC tuners inside the box and all my reception problems were eliminated. I tried replacing the cables from the back panel to the ATSC tuners without success so my conclusion is that the problem for me was occurring when the HR10-250 split the OTA signal to the 2 ATSC tuners. Now I just feed the signal into the box directly by running a cables through a vent hole and directly connecting to the ATSC tuners.
> 
> Check out this old thread for other possibilities:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290785


As quoted from my favorite Far Side "blah, blah, blah, Ginger". Which means, my eyes caught the "all my reception problems were eliminated". I had great reception using my "junk" Terk indoor antenna when hooked up directly to TV and now experience regular signal loss and jumble.

Can you point me to a resource that provides a picture of what you're talking about? I'm sure my husband can fix this for me if we know what to look for inside the box.

Thx


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## Runch Machine (Feb 7, 2002)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...7840/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0314134-2411157?ie=UTF8

The Terk HDTVi costs $21.50 at Amazon.com. I have used this several times in similar situations to yours with great success. Before you start tinkering around inside your HD Tivo, give this a try.


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## dimented (May 21, 2003)

I just got on board with the HDTivo and have a question concerning OTA signals. Where is the signal stranght meter everyone is talking about? If I go into setup and go to the monitor off air signal screen, all of my signals for the Antenna read at 0 but yet I am getting all of my locals except 1. Am I looking in the wrong spot?


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## annenoe (Oct 19, 2003)

Runch Machine said:


> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...7840/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0314134-2411157?ie=UTF8
> 
> The Terk HDTVi costs $21.50 at Amazon.com. I have used this several times in similar situations to yours with great success. Before you start tinkering around inside your HD Tivo, give this a try.


That's the one I use. Honestly, I was totally bowled over at how good it was. Just one problem. I got crystal clear channels, including one that was in the opposite direction of our main tower here in Bay Area... but only when hooked up directly to my TV. As soon as I hooked up to the HR10-250, the signal degraded - noticeably. Don't get me wrong, 95% clarity, with some signal loss, is waaaaaay better than 0% - so not complaining here. But it sounds like there is a way to boost. My signal loss with HR10 is noticeable, and I've completely lost a couple of my channels that I could see perfectly before the HR10.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

dimented..shot in the dark here..are you looking at the station number or the actual UHF/VHF number?


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## Runch Machine (Feb 7, 2002)

dimented said:


> I just got on board with the HDTivo and have a question concerning OTA signals. Where is the signal stranght meter everyone is talking about? If I go into setup and go to the monitor off air signal screen, all of my signals for the Antenna read at 0 but yet I am getting all of my locals except 1. Am I looking in the wrong spot?


Are you sure you are checking for signal strength on the channels used for the digital transmission? They are not the same channel numbers as used for analog. For example, in Mpls, channel 4 has their digital broadcast on channel 32. If you try to check signal strength on 4 it shows zero. You have to go to 32 to see the signal strength.


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## poppagene (Dec 29, 2001)

annenoe said:


> As quoted from my favorite Far Side "blah, blah, blah, Ginger". Which means, my eyes caught the "all my reception problems were eliminated". I had great reception using my "junk" Terk indoor antenna when hooked up directly to TV and now experience regular signal loss and jumble.
> 
> Can you point me to a resource that provides a picture of what you're talking about? I'm sure my husband can fix this for me if we know what to look for inside the box.
> 
> Thx


9thetee has some pictures of the inside of the hr10-250 here: 
http://www.9thtee.com/insidehdtivo.htm

If you look at the following picture 
http://www.9thtee.com/images/hdtivo8.jpg

you will see that the ota antenna plugs into the back (lower left) and runs inside to the atsc tuners on the right just above the access card. I uncrewed the factory cables at the tuners and directly attached the 2 feeds from my rooftop antenna to the 2 tuners inside the box (again just above the access card).

Hope this helps.


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## Dorv (Sep 28, 2004)

poppagene said:


> you will see that the ota antenna plugs into the back (lower left) and runs inside to the atsc tuners on the right just above the access card. I uncrewed the factory cables at the tuners and directly attached the 2 feeds from my rooftop antenna to the 2 tuners inside the box (again just above the access card).
> 
> Hope this helps.


How do you get the feeds into the box? I have a leased unit, and don't think it would be kosher to cut out an area of the fan holes.


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## dimented (May 21, 2003)

Runch Machine said:


> Are you sure you are checking for signal strength on the channels used for the digital transmission? They are not the same channel numbers as used for analog. For example, in Mpls, channel 4 has their digital broadcast on channel 32. If you try to check signal strength on 4 it shows zero. You have to go to 32 to see the signal strength.


That was the problem. Thanks for the help guys.

not used to this OTA stuff.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

now no one tell him that in 2009, all the UHFs may change again depending on channel selections and above 51 will all disappear...shhhhh

pdf with changes:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2649A2.pdf


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## poppagene (Dec 29, 2001)

Dorv said:


> How do you get the feeds into the box? I have a leased unit, and don't think it would be kosher to cut out an area of the fan holes.


I fed an RG6 cable without an F connector through a vent hole on the bottom. After feeding it through, I stripped the end and added in an F connector. I attached this to a two way splitter and ran RG6 cable from the 2 ends of the splitter to the coaxial ports on the ATSC tuners. I completely bypassed the OTA connection on the back of the HR10-250.

I'm still under warranty on mine so I'm not ready to drill a hole in the case yet either.

You can test this out first by splitting the antenna signal and attaching it directly to the tuners with the top of the box off. If it improves your reception proceed as you wish. If it doesn't improve your reception, try another attack like replacing the cables that run from the inside back to the tuners.


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## analogkid12 (Mar 15, 2004)

The Hr10-250 only has one antenna input, could I use a splitter (I have a regal grs2dgh splitter) to get the 2 inputs needed to conneect my antenna to each atsc tuner in the hd tivo? If not can a splitter be reccomended?


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

The HR10-250 already has an internal splitter. Connect one cable and you get two ATSC tuners.


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## analogkid12 (Mar 15, 2004)

I understand that the HR10-250 already splits to one input, read in this thread that the internal splitter sometimes weakens the OTA signal. It has been suggested that direct connection to the ATSC tuners could improve signal performance. Just wondering if my splitter or any other could improve signal performance.



cheer said:


> The HR10-250 already has an internal splitter. Connect one cable and you get two ATSC tuners.


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## poppagene (Dec 29, 2001)

analogkid12 said:


> The Hr10-250 only has one antenna input, could I use a splitter (I have a regal grs2dgh splitter) to get the 2 inputs needed to conneect my antenna to each atsc tuner in the hd tivo? If not can a splitter be reccomended?


yes you can use a splitter in th emanner you suggest. I use a radioshack splitter.


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## Runch Machine (Feb 7, 2002)

analogkid12 said:


> I understand that the HR10-250 already splits to one input, read in this thread that the internal splitter sometimes weakens the OTA signal. It has been suggested that direct connection to the ATSC tuners could improve signal performance. Just wondering if my splitter or any other could improve signal performance.


It is not true that the unit's splitter weakens the signal. In fact, the unit that splits the signal also amplifies it by about 5db. This is a significant increase. The signal seen by the tuners is actually stronger than what you are presenting to the input jack. Depending on where you are and the quality of the signal, you may be overloading the tuners.

You can try connecting directly to one of the tuners to see if that improves your reception and/or try a basic splitter which will reduce the signal by 3.5 db by nature of it being split. Some people have had great results with this due to possible overloading of the tuners caused by amplifying a strong signal.


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## annenoe (Oct 19, 2003)

poppagene said:


> 9thetee has some pictures of the inside of the hr10-250 here:
> http://www.9thtee.com/insidehdtivo.htm
> 
> If you look at the following picture
> ...


Yes - thanks. that's what I needed


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## poppagene (Dec 29, 2001)

I know that I had a problem with both strong and weak signals that was solved by bypassing the back of the hr10-250. I previously tried using an attenuator which did not help with strong signals as others have suggested. I suspect that the signal amplifier / distributor unit may be problem prone and bypassing it may simply bypass a poorly functioning component.



Runch Machine said:


> It is not true that the unit's splitter weakens the signal. In fact, the unit that splits the signal also amplifies it by about 5db. This is a significant increase. The signal seen by the tuners is actually stronger than what you are presenting to the input jack. Depending on where you are and the quality of the signal, you may be overloading the tuners.
> 
> You can try connecting directly to one of the tuners to see if that improves your reception and/or try a basic splitter which will reduce the signal by 3.5 db by nature of it being split. Some people have had great results with this due to possible overloading of the tuners caused by amplifying a strong signal.


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## analogkid12 (Mar 15, 2004)

Runch Machine said:


> It is not true that the unit's splitter weakens the signal. In fact, the unit that splits the signal also amplifies it by about 5db. This is a significant increase. The signal seen by the tuners is actually stronger than what you are presenting to the input jack. Depending on where you are and the quality of the signal, you may be overloading the tuners.
> 
> You can try connecting directly to one of the tuners to see if that improves your reception and/or try a basic splitter which will reduce the signal by 3.5 db by nature of it being split. Some people have had great results with this due to possible overloading of the tuners caused by amplifying a strong signal.


Thanks for the clarification, will give both suggestions a shot....


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