# Selling a Lifetime Tivo no longer worth it, value way down



## techieunite (Oct 18, 2005)

According to the message posts on this board, Tivo has recently changed their policy on tranferring lifetime service.

This will directly affect Tivo users who have Lifetime service and also people who purchase used Tivo's with Lifetime Service.

If the tivo with Lifetime has had the Lifetime service for less than 36 months, then they do NOT charge for transferring the service. I guess Tivo sees this as an acceptable solution since the cost of lifetime service is $299-$399 an a year of prepaid service is $99 or $129

But if you buy a tivo from somebody else with Lifetime and the service on the box has been on the box for more than 36 months, you may have a problem.

If the box breaks, Tivo will transfer the Tivo service for $150(for a replacement box) plus a $199 "tranfer lifetime fee".

So if you're box breaks, it's basicaly $350 to get a replacement box.

This totally sucks. I get why they do this, because they are basically killing the market for used Tivos. 

But for long term users, they used to offer a replacement box for $150 with no tranfer fee. I don't know about others on this board, but $150 is a lot of money. 

I'm a computer tech and have repaired many a Tivo. Replacing hard drives, re-imaging drivers, replacing power supplies, fans, etc. I have no problem fixing them, but Tivo has a different customer base that doesn't want to crack open the box and tinker.

They should really re-evaluate their policy. I think they should let others buy a box NEW instead of sending a refurb box for $150. I recently had a problem with a Tivo and it wasn't the hard drive or power supply.

I was charged $150 for replacement box. This was before the new policy.

If it was after, I would have been charged $350.

Now if Tivo had let me pay $200 to transfer the lifetime to any box of my choosing, I think that would be acceptable trade off. You can get Tivo boxes off of Craigslist for $80 or less, Tivo HD's for $200 or less, most of them lightly used, won in a raffel, etc.

I think it's letter writing Time. I think Tivo needs to spell out their intentions in their TOS so people know what they are getting into before they buy a Tivo.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Your problem seems to be with purchasing, not selling.
Selling a Lifetime Tivo is always worth the extra money in your pocket, provided the loss of a lifetime tivo on your account has negligible effect on any other Tivo subscriptions.

However, as I see it, people buying used equipment are generally fully aware of the fact that there is no mfr. warranty included, so I don't see where the prices on used units will be affected to any noticeable degree.

I have great difficulty comprehending the idea people have that they are somehow entitled to warranty services on something that no longer has a warranty. Getting something (anything) for anything other than full retail price from a mfr. as is the case with Tivo, should be appreciated, not spit on with disdain.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

techieunite said:


> According to the message posts on this board, Tivo has recently changed their policy on tranferring lifetime service.
> 
> This will directly affect Tivo users who have Lifetime service and also people who purchase used Tivo's with Lifetime Service.
> 
> ...


What does all this have to do with selling LT'd TiVos?


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

I thought it was pretty clear that a lifetime subscription was for the life of the box. If the box breaks and can't be fixed why should Tivo do anything?

Transferring a lifetime subscription to another box for $150 is a losing proposition on Tivo's side, they are after all, a for profit company.

I look at $350 this way, $51 for the box and $299 for a new lifetime subscription. I think anyone would think this is one hell of a deal if they could buy a Tivo for that.

Keep the inside of your Tivo clean, put it on a UPS, change a hard drive occasionally and there is no reason why it shouldn't last several years.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

It seems like this would only increase the value of a TiVo if it has lifetime on it.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

rainwater said:


> It seems like this would only increase the value of a TiVo if it has lifetime on it.


With a Series 3 you would be correct BUT any Series 2 (or Series 1) used with Lifetime Service does not have much value if it would cost $350 to have it replaced. I am sure that 3rd pty have a way to fix most TiVo for much less than $350.


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## JayBird (Jan 26, 2003)

techieunite said:


> According to the message posts on this board, Tivo has recently changed their policy on tranferring lifetime service.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Ok, I'd like a little clarity here. The OP said that if you bought such a box with lifetime service that was over 36 months old, and it broke so you had TiVo replace it, they charge both $150 for the new box and $199 to transfer the lifetime service.

But, let's put aside the issue of the box breaking for the moment...

If I get a TiVo with lifetime service on it from someone else that has had the lifetime service on it for over 36 months, is there a charge to transfer that box from the original owners TiVo account to my TiVo account? Or is this whole discussion of transfer fees only applicable to a box that *breaks*, where TiVo is transferring the service on the TiVo to a replacement TiVo?


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## Doh (May 18, 2001)

donnoh said:


> Keep the inside of your Tivo clean, put it on a UPS, change a hard drive occasionally and there is no reason why it shouldn't last several years.


Also, there are plenty of people out there who have done none of those things and still have tivos that have run for several years.


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## jjberger2134 (Nov 20, 2002)

JayBird said:


> If I get a TiVo with lifetime service on it from someone else that has had the lifetime service on it for over 36 months, is there a charge to transfer that box from the original owners TiVo account to my TiVo account? Or is this whole discussion of transfer fees only applicable to a box that *breaks*, where TiVo is transferring the service on the TiVo to a replacement TiVo?


No charge to transfer a box onto your account from someone else. The box with lifetime is transferable from *owner to owner for no fee*. It seems this entire discussion is for broken boxes and transferring the lifetime from* box to box for a fee.*


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

jjberger2134 said:


> No charge to transfer a box onto your account from someone else. The box with lifetime is transferable from *owner to owner for no fee*. It seems this entire discussion is for broken boxes and transferring the lifetime from* box to box for a fee.*


Exactly, and I will never understand why some people think they are entitled to something for nothing.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jjberger2134 said:


> No charge to transfer a box onto your account from someone else. The box with lifetime is transferable from *owner to owner for no fee*. It seems this entire discussion is for broken boxes and transferring the lifetime from* box to box for a fee.*


Exactly. Which means it has ZERO to do with resale of LT'd boxes.


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## techieunite (Oct 18, 2005)

What I meant by this is that Tivo should just allow you to "transfer lifetime" for $200. This would solve any of the problems. This would be a $100 discount compared to the Multi-unit discount and $200 off of the standard $399 pricing.

Selling anybody a refurb box for $150 plus a $200 lifetime transfer fee is a crock. The Refurb boxes are not always perfect and are far from new.

I don't disagree with the fee. I disagree with only letting people do it if they get a refurb box.

I'm sure that if Tivo offered the "transfer fee" for $200, they'd get people to buy a lot of hardware new from retail.

How would this be bad? It would give "good" customers a reason to upgrade and Tivo would still benefit monetarily.

Many Tivo users originally paid full price for their series 1, 2, 3 or Tivo HD units. Many of them would like to upgrade, but don't want to pay a monthly fee.

Many of them, don't need two boxes, so MSD is not always the best option because you have to keep the original box active in order to obtain the discount or have an existing Lifetime box in order to buy lifetime at the $299 discount.

Not trying to rant, but in reality, customer loyalty is huge.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

techieunite said:


> What I meant by this is that Tivo should just allow you to "transfer lifetime" for $200. This would solve any of the problems. This would be a $100 discount compared to the Multi-unit discount and $200 off of the standard $399 pricing.
> 
> Selling anybody a refurb box for $150 plus a $200 lifetime transfer fee is a crock. The Refurb boxes are not always perfect and are far from new.
> 
> ...


Customer loyalty..what is that exactly, giving customers free or discounted stuff. When my 10 year old TV went south where was Sony's customer loyalty for having their TV for the last 10 years, I asked Sony for a nice discount on a new Sony HDTV after being a good customer for the last 10 years..guess what they told me ?
TiVo is a bussnise for profit, you should get what you are promised for sure, as a new customer or long time customer...if TiVo wants to do more than they promised that up to TiVo itself not us.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Many consumers have a very warped sense of what customer loyalty is. Customer loyalty is the willingness of customers to purchase your products or services at a premium... that means paying *more* -- not less.


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## jjberger2134 (Nov 20, 2002)

techieunite said:


> How would this be bad? It would give "good" customers a reason to upgrade and Tivo would still benefit monetarily.


Unfortunately, TiVo sells the hardware at a loss - thus the reason for a contract and monthly fee (to recoup those lost dollars).



> Many Tivo users originally paid full price for their series 1, 2, 3 or Tivo HD units. Many of them would like to upgrade, but don't want to pay a monthly fee.


I agree with you that many people do not want to pay a monthly fee, but that is precisely how TiVo earns money. The monthly fee recurring revenue is more profitable and predictable for TiVo than a lifetime sub, thus the need for additional fees when TiVo allows a LT transfer.



> Many of them, don't need two boxes, so MSD is not always the best option because you have to keep the original box active in order to obtain the discount or have an existing Lifetime box in order to buy lifetime at the $299 discount.


Again, agreed. Many people do not need two boxes, but the resale market is strong with older units precisely for this reason. People buy the 2nd unit, put lifetime on it for the discounted rate (MSD) and then sell their original units and recoup some of the costs for the second unit. I agree with others who have said, what does the transfer fee for an out of warranty box have to do with the resale market? Two totally different types of transactions.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

jjberger2134 said:


> I agree with others who have said, what does the transfer fee for an out of warranty box have to do with the resale market? Two totally different types of transactions.


I think it's likely to have some impact on resale since people will no longer be assured that they can easily extend the life of a box indefinitely through exchanges. It puts some risk back into purchasing product lifetime. Lifetime now assures that your net monthly cost will be less than paying monthly, but you're not assured of any savings over the three year plan unless you have MSD.

TiVo really has no choice here. Their generous "repair" policy has been keeping lifetime units alive well past their expected lifetime. They've extended the expected life of those units three times now and they still have a growing percentage of their subscriber base that is generating no revenue.

The only quibble I have with it is that any paid transfer should reset the three years. The excuse that the transfer from legacy units to the S3 was a "promotion" kind of stinks.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I'd suspect that a some point in the near future we'll see more ads here on TC for places that can repair tivo's for a whole lot less than the 350 dollar "repair" service that tivo is offering.

It's not my thing but I'd bet that someone could make a good buck guaranteeing to repair boxes for 199 bucks or your money back. Since the vast majority of repairs would involve replacing the drive with a stock sized drive- or maybe a power supply- it's almost a no brainer. 

if I wasn't so lazy I'd start the service myself and slap some ads up on TC that would say - "lifetime box broke? SAVE $150 or your money back".


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

donnoh said:


> I thought it was pretty clear that a lifetime subscription was for the life of the box. If the box breaks and can't be fixed why should Tivo do anything?
> ...


No, no, no...it should be service for lifetime of the box - not the lifetime of the _owner_ of course, - with the implied lifetime hardware warranty to make it an immortal lifetime...and then of course, THAT agreement has be transferable on death of the owner to the owner's heirs with no additional fees.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bicker said:


> Many consumers have a very warped sense of what customer loyalty is. Customer loyalty is the willingness of customers to purchase your products or services at a premium... that means paying *more* -- not less.


I suspect many tivo owners fit your description. Generally provider supplied DVRs are less expensive.


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## kasten (Dec 19, 2002)

I do not believe lifetime should be referred to as something for nothing. The risk was individuals purchasing a lifetime subscription paid money upfront and in some cases at a point when the viability of the company was in doubt. The underlying question should be what is implied or contracted for by lifetime.

For those original owners (series 1 at least in this case) with a lifetime subscription, there was an agreement that TIVO sent you indicating your lifetime subscription is for the unit and can be transferred to another unit should your unit become inoperable. If you have that document TIVO will honor your request... at least in my case. As one service manager indicated... just fax over the documentation (seems TIVO does not retain historical information) and we will transfer a lifetime subscription to you new unit.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

netringer said:


> No, no, no...it should be service for lifetime of the box - not the lifetime of the _owner_ of course, - with the implied lifetime hardware warranty to make it an immortal lifetime...and then of course, THAT agreement has be transferable on death of the owner to the owner's heirs with no additional fees.


There are no fees for transferring ownership of a TiVo with lifetime.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> I suspect many tivo owners fit your description.


"Many"? Surely. Most? I suspect not.



lew said:


> Generally provider supplied DVRs are less expensive.


Not true: You can find numerous threads where folks have shown very clearly that TiVo's break-even point is about 2 1/2 years, so TiVo is actually lower in cost, over the long-run, than the cable company-supplied DVR.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

bicker said:


> Not true: You can find numerous threads where folks have shown very clearly that TiVo's break-even point is about 2 1/2 years, so TiVo is actually lower in cost, over the long-run, than the cable company-supplied DVR.


You must take the cost of cable cards that can be as much a $7.5/month to $1/month into consideration


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> Many consumers have a very warped sense of what customer loyalty is. Customer loyalty is the willingness of customers to purchase your products or services at a premium... that means paying *more* -- not less.


sadly it seems in this country that Customer Loyalty is defined as "to be bought with cheap stuff, versus having a high quality brand" TiVo along with many companies are caught square in the middle of that dichotomy.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

nrc said:


> The only quibble I have with it is that any paid transfer should reset the three years. The excuse that the transfer from legacy units to the S3 was a "promotion" kind of stinks.


I agree with NRC that the paid transfer from older units to the S3 should have reset the 3 year timer. I don't believe I've seen any details but I assume the out of warranty repair transfer resets the timer so I don't really see how that's' any different.

Scott


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

techieunite said:


> I'm sure that if Tivo offered the "transfer fee" for $200, they'd get people to buy a lot of hardware new from retail.


and TiVo does do that periodically asa special promotion. Loyal Customers have made use of it.

the only change recently is that TiVo has had to enforce that it was a special promotion and the age of the lifetime does not reset. Thus a lifetime older than some age (I think 4 years) will not have the lifetime transferred without a fee. That policy has always been in place, just not seen or discussed much. TiVo does this at anytime only for out of warranty repair work and thus TiVo decides the box. Frankly, how many other Consumer electronic companies offer an out of warranty repair of any kind?

PS - I doubt the out of repair warranty resets the timer on Lifetime *subscription*. the subscription is not a warranty and mant people seem to get confused by that.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

lessd said:


> You must take the cost of cable cards that can be as much a $7.5/month to $1/month into consideration


You must take the resale value of a Tivo w/lifetime into consideration, along with the ever-rising rental rate for a cable DVR. Tivo HDs, when everything is taken into consideration, are often much cheaper than cable HD DVRs over time.

In my area, the CC cost is included with the additional digital outlet fee, which you will pay regardless if you have a Tivo or Comcast's DVR.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> Thus a lifetime older than some age (I think 4 years) will not have the lifetime transferred without a fee. That policy has always been in place, just not seen or discussed much.


Not true. This is a recent change. Prior to the change there was no fee.


> Frankly, how many other Consumer electronic companies offer an out of warranty repair of any kind?


How about EVERY CE company? I don't know any CE manufacturer (except perhaps some no-name Chinese manufacturers on e-Bays) that does not offer out of warranty repair.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

kasten said:


> I do not believe lifetime should be referred to as something for nothing. The risk was individuals purchasing a lifetime subscription paid money upfront and in some cases at a point when the viability of the company was in doubt. The underlying question should be what is implied or contracted for by lifetime.
> 
> For those original owners (series 1 at least in this case) with a lifetime subscription, there was an agreement that TIVO sent you indicating your lifetime subscription is for the unit and can be transferred to another unit should your unit become inoperable. If you have that document TIVO will honor your request... at least in my case. As one service manager indicated... just fax over the documentation (seems TIVO does not retain historical information) and we will transfer a lifetime subscription to you new unit.


I dunno about lifetime ever being transferable. If you have that in writing, OK.

Otherwise, the rant is that some who bought the non-transferable (to other hardware) hardware lifetime service from TiVo are miffed that Tivo _will_ allow the non-transferable service to be transferred to another box but the transfer costs too much. 

For me, I did a "one time" S1->S3 transfer in 2005 knowing full well it may never be transferable again. I'm very much ahead financially now on both lifetime service purchases. I'm very confident that I can keep the hardware working for long after I'm no longer interested in using it. (My 9? year old Series 1 still works.)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lessd said:


> You must take the cost of cable cards that can be as much a $7.5/month to $1/month into consideration


As you would expect with any average, the 2 1/2 year break-even does indeed take into consideration the average CableCARD rental cost.



slowbiscuit said:


> You must take the resale value of a Tivo w/lifetime into consideration, along with the ever-rising rental rate for a cable DVR.


Generally, as noted above, the break-even analyses I've seen *do* factor in the average rental rates for CableCARDs, but they generally do *not* factor in the resale value.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

donnoh said:


> I thought it was pretty clear that a lifetime subscription was for the life of the box. If the box breaks and can't be fixed why should Tivo do anything?


The problem with that logic is that that it doesn't matter whether it can be fixed or not, TiVo isn't going to fix it. Their policy is that you can send in your broken box and $150 and they'll replace it with a refurb, and that's it.

It does seem a bit of a shame to charge $350 if the problem is something extremely minor.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> sadly it seems in this country that Customer Loyalty is defined as "to be bought with cheap stuff, versus having a high quality brand" ...


Ain't it the truth: From Southwest Airlines, to Walmart, to pick-any-"family"-restaurant-chain...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Brainiac 5 said:


> The problem with that logic is that that it doesn't matter whether it can be fixed or not, TiVo isn't going to fix it. Their policy is that you can send in your broken box and $150 and they'll replace it with a refurb, and that's it.
> 
> It does seem a bit of a shame to charge $350 if the problem is something extremely minor.


when has TiVo ever offered to specifically repair minor problems out of warranty. For that matter when has TiVo ever offered to fix minor problems IN warranty with anything other than a box swap that is not billed to the customer. Consider what it would cost to maintain a shop of skills and resources to do such fixes with good reliability then reconsider if Tivo should waste money on that since they would have to charge more for repairs. It makes zero business sense to offer such repair and is why few if any CE companies offer such out of warranty repairs. for my TVs and VCRs I *always used a 3rd party*

TiVo has an upfront policy of any "repairs" they do is a box swap for x$. Now they are simply seeing cases where they enforce that lifetimes over 4 years old do not survive the broken box but have offered the customer help with that via a transfer to another box for 199$. Do not like that OUT OF WARRANTY repair approach. Then use a 3rd party who will repair the specific problem.

Why are so many people having difficulty with the concept 
=> *out of warranty*


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

It goes hand-in-glove with all other "my gosh they world cannot possibly be structured any way other than that which benefits me" sentiments we regularly see displayed online.


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

Why would you have to pay a $200 transfer fee? If you're transferring the lifetime service to the exact same model TiVo, you can transfer it online for free. This has been the case for as long as I can remember.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> when has TiVo ever offered to specifically repair minor problems out of warranty. [...snip...] It makes zero business sense to offer such repair and is why few if any CE companies offer such out of warranty repairs. for my TVs and VCRs I *always used a 3rd party*


Why do you think CE companies don't offer repairs? While I'm sure someone can come up with an exception, in general it's standard practice to offer some way to get repairs. Manufacturers will either do it themselves, or will have authorized third parties to which they can direct you. Admittedly people don't usually use such service, because when something breaks it's usually cheaper to just buy a new one.



> TiVo has an upfront policy of any "repairs" they do is a box swap for x$.


To be fair, you'd have to seek that information out in order to know it before you buy a lifetime subscription. I think most people would in fact assume that minor problems could be dealt with without the box being declared "dead."



> Now they are simply seeing cases where they enforce that lifetimes over 4 years old do not survive the broken box but have offered the customer help with that via a transfer to another box for 199$. Do not like that OUT OF WARRANTY repair approach. Then use a 3rd party who will repair the specific problem.


Are you responding to me here, or to other posts? As for me, I just said it was "a bit of shame" to declare the box dead and charge $350 if there's only a minor problem, not that it's a crime against humanity. I don't really see where that's an unreasonable statement.

Using a third party is a good alternative, I'm sure this will be an incentive for companies to offer that service. As an aside, usually a manufacturer would provide technical information for third parties who are doing that, I'm not sure if TiVo does or plans to do that?



> Why are so many people having difficulty with the concept
> => *out of warranty*


I'm not really sure what "out of warranty" has to do with it. The lifetime service is supposed to be good until the box dies. I think many people reasonably take that to mean until it fails and cannot be repaired. Unfortunately, the way TiVo does things, any problem at all qualifies as the box "dying."

I think what TiVo is doing is pretty reasonable and I'm fine with it, but there are two legitimate sides to the issue and I don't think everyone who's upset about it is a raving lunatic.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Brainiac 5 said:


> Unfortunately, the way TiVo does things, any problem at all qualifies as the box "dying."


That's not really true: TiVo only considers the box "dead" if it doesn't make a successful call for over six months. That's pretty specific and limited -- not "any problem at all".


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

generaltso said:


> Why would you have to pay a $200 transfer fee? If you're transferring the lifetime service to the exact same model TiVo, you can transfer it online for free. This has been the case for as long as I can remember.


That may be part of the reason why the refurbish TiVos have a different model number, for the 652 the TSN is 652-0011-xxxx-xxxx, for a new TiVo-HD the service number is 652-0001-xxxx-xxxx. You can't do what you say between a new (when purchased) TiVo-HD and a refurbished TiVo-HD.(or Series 3 original).


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

bicker said:


> That's not really true: TiVo only considers the box "dead" if it doesn't make a successful call for over six months. That's pretty specific and limited -- not "any problem at all".


I think we're talking about two different definitions of "dead." I'm talking about when it's considered dead for purposes of defining it's "lifetime." Even if your box doesn't make a call for over six months, if it's actually working you can still reactivate it later and continue to use your lifetime service. (At least, you could the last time I did it.)

To be more specific about what I meant to say, if you have any problem at all that interferes with your use of the TiVo enough that you have to send it in for repair, you're given a different, refurbished box and the original box is "dead," thus the transfer fee (potentially, depending on how long you'd had the service).


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

What does tivo do with the damaged units that are returned? I always thought they were being repaired and sent out to a different customer as a refurbished unit. Are you suggesting tivo is throwing them out?

I thought the reason for furnishing the customer with a refurbished unit, instead of repairing and returning the customers own unit, was speed of service.

Tivo has a new reason, charge a customer to transfer LS.



ZeoTiVo said:


> when has TiVo ever offered to specifically repair minor problems out of warranty. For that matter when has TiVo ever offered to fix minor problems IN warranty with anything other than a box swap that is not billed to the customer. Consider what it would cost to maintain a shop of skills and resources to do such fixes with good reliability then reconsider if Tivo should waste money on that since they would have to charge more for repairs. It makes zero business sense to offer such repair and is why few if any CE companies offer such out of warranty repairs. for my TVs and VCRs I *always used a 3rd party*
> 
> TiVo has an upfront policy of any "repairs" they do is a box swap for x$. Now they are simply seeing cases where they enforce that lifetimes over 4 years old do not survive the broken box but have offered the customer help with that via a transfer to another box for 199$. Do not like that OUT OF WARRANTY repair approach. Then use a 3rd party who will repair the specific problem.
> 
> ...


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Brainiac 5 said:


> Why do you think CE companies don't offer repairs? While I'm sure someone can come up with an exception, in general it's standard practice to offer some way to get repairs. Manufacturers will either do it themselves, or will have authorized third parties to which they can direct you. Admittedly people don't usually use such service, because when something breaks it's usually cheaper to just buy a new one.
> ...


'xactly. What's the huge difference from say, Sony having a flat $175 repair rate at the factory repair center on a 5 year old TV you can get the current model of for $225 (my exact experience) , and TiVo having a flat $150 refurb exchange where you can get a current model for $250...other than you want the same transistors back?


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

netringer said:


> 'xactly. What's the huge difference from say, Sony having a flat $175 repair rate at the factory repair center on a 5 year old TV you can the current model of for $225 (my exact experience) , and TiVo having a flat $150 refurb exchange where you can get a current model for $250...other than you want the same transistors back?


Well, there is some difference in this case, because of the lifetime service. If you got the same transistors back , it seems like you'd still be entitled to your lifetime service, but by replacing it they can say the "lifetime" of the original unit is over.

As far as the $150 cost for repairs though, you're absolutely right, that's in no way unusual.


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> sadly it seems in this country that Customer Loyalty is defined as "to be bought with cheap stuff, versus having a high quality brand" TiVo along with many companies are caught square in the middle of that dichotomy.


Unfortunately in the spend thrift "my slum house is worth a million dollars" economy money flowed freely. In the new age where money is earned, Tivo has to rely on customers that can pay their bills. Tivo has higher quality customers but, they also have early adopters that still think that they should get something for nothing.

I have lifetime on two boxes, when they die I'll accept it and buy another box, not ***** about how Tivo screwed me.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

donnoh said:


> I have lifetime on two boxes, when they die I'll accept it and buy another box, not ***** about how Tivo screwed me.


Or like many of us, have a 3rd party repair it for significantly fewer $$$.

Diane


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## robomeister (Feb 4, 2005)

Here's my two cents.

I think there is a confusion between "service" and "warranty," and the inclusion of the word "lifetime."

The "lifetime service subscription" is for the TiVo service, which includes program guide information, ability to transfer recordings (MRV, TTG, etc.), Season Passes, Wishlists, and everything else included in the TiVo "service." This has nothing to do with the health of the hardware. The hardware is sold at a loss. TiVo gains the most revenue through monthly subscriptions or, to a lesser extent, lifetime subscriptions. Not from the sale of the hardware. Lifetime Subscriptions are actually amortized over a three or four year period.

TiVo also has a limited 30 day warranty that will replace the hardware for any reason, free of charge. After that, a repair cost will be charged. In the case of a lifetime service subscription unit, there is no extended warranty associated with the service. Actually, TiVo offers no extended warranty service at all.

However, in the good old days, TiVo was nice enough to "fix" most "broken" TiVos for $150. This usually meant that the customer sent in the TiVo to the TiVo repair center, and TiVo sent out an identical refurbished unit and transferred any service to the refurbished unit, whether monthly or lifetime.

Now, in the bad new days, TiVo has figured out that this benefit has been costing them money in lost service subscriptions. They do not get any revenue by fixing a "broken" "lifetime" unit for $150. That barely covers the cost of labor, much less the hardware. Like it or not, TiVo is a business and wants to make money. They closed this financial loophole by charging more for this repair method.

This situation doesn't bother me in the least. Actually, I like it, because less technical people sell their lifetimed TiVos on ebay as "broken." And all I have to do to fix them is replace the hard drive, sometimes replace the power supply (rarely). So I get a lifetimed TiVo for cheap, and I get free service. Then I can turn around and sell the same TiVo on eBay for twice (or more) what I paid for it. Sweet!

So, as others have said, I see more 3rd party places popping up that will repair a lifetimed TiVo for less than the $350 ($150 repair + $200 transfer). I, personally, could do it for $50 + the cost of a new drive + shipping. But that's just me.

So, I like this new policy from TiVo. More lifetimed TiVos for me!

robomeister


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

robomeister said:


> TiVo also has a limited 30 day warranty that will replace the hardware for any reason, free of charge.


The warranty is
90 days (not 30) on parts and labor 
1 year on parts

They do have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee.
Cancel your subscription within thirty days and get a full refund on the subscription and if you bout the Tivo directly from tivo, you also get a full refund on the hardware (minus shipping).


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bicker said:


> Generally, as noted above, the break-even analyses I've seen *do* factor in the average rental rates for CableCARDs, but they generally do *not* factor in the resale value.


'Good point. TiVos have a very high resale value compared to many other technologies. I did one cost analysis, and if done properly, a potential TiVo owner can actually try out a TiVo for about 18 months very nearly for free, after recouping the initial costs by selling the TiVo and allowing for the lower CATV subscription fees.


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

netringer said:


> I dunno about lifetime ever being transferable. If you have that in writing, OK.


Originally, lifetime was transferable - my DirecTiVo SAT-60 was a purchased unit (not a monthly rental from DirecTV) with lifetime service on the account, not on the physical unit - if it had died and been replaced with a different box I still would not have had to pay TiVo (or DirecTV) a monthly fee, or any kind of fee to transfer the service.

By the time I bought my HR10-250 that option was no longer available; the new subscription I bought was tied to the physical unit. I could have transferred the lifetime to the new unit, but that wouldn't have saved me anything; I was going to keep both units in operation, so I would have needed
a second subscription on any case.


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## TiVo_Fanatic (May 29, 2006)

techieunite said:


> If the tivo with Lifetime has had the Lifetime service for less than 36 months, then they do NOT charge for transferring the service.


I wana know exactly where this is printed because I have a S2 thats been lifetimed for 28 months and a S3 thats on monthly right now and what I'd like to do is swap the plans around so the S3 would be lifetimed and the S2 on monthly. So assuming that the above quote is true then in theory TiVo shouldnt hassle me over the request.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> Originally, lifetime was transferable - my DirecTiVo SAT-60 was a purchased unit (not a monthly rental from DirecTV) with lifetime service on the account, not on the physical unit - if it had died and been replaced with a different box I still would not have had to pay TiVo (or DirecTV) a monthly fee, or any kind of fee to transfer the service.
> 
> By the time I bought my HR10-250 that option was no longer available; the new subscription I bought was tied to the physical unit. I could have transferred the lifetime to the new unit, but that wouldn't have saved me anything; I was going to keep both units in operation, so I would have needed a second subscription on any case.


This is not correct. At least not with regard to TiVo. TiVo "lifetime" service has always been for the life of the box. They did allow a one time transfer for those who purchased their boxes prior to January 2000 because of some question about whether their terms were clear.

Originally TiVo service on DirecTV TiVo units were owned by Tivo and they were subject to that same limitation. But when DirecTV took over TiVo subscriptions in 2002 they took over responsibility for transferred lifetime accounts and they set their own policies for handling them.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Brainiac 5 said:


> Why do you think CE companies don't offer repairs? While I'm sure someone can come up with an exception, in general it's standard practice to offer some way to get repairs. Manufacturers will either do it themselves, or will have authorized third parties to which they can direct you. Admittedly people don't usually use such service, because when something breaks it's usually cheaper to just buy a new one.


I was referring specifically to the kind of specific repair such as swapping out a power supply or tuner. Big ticket items like TV's typically just plug into the 3rd party repair shops out there and offer a way for them to come certified and thus pointed to for repairs. Really it is a way to do the warranty repairs for less money overall then as a direct service to customers. For smaller items like a TiVo most CE companies have found the swap is indeed the simple route to warranty repairs,as a CE company is not going to keep a staff of repair technicians in their pay. Certainly not a small company like TiVo.



lew said:


> What does tivo do with the damaged units that are returned? I always thought they were being repaired and sent out to a different customer as a refurbished unit. Are you suggesting tivo is throwing them out?
> 
> I thought the reason for furnishing the customer with a refurbished unit, instead of repairing and returning the customers own unit, was speed of service.
> 
> Tivo has a new reason, charge a customer to transfer LS.


Speed and less expensive to TiVo. Likely they do repair the bulk by simply replacing the drive and then toss the rest. Of course you and I do not know their exact methods.
Mainly TiVo is getting out of the business of extending lifetimed boxes. It makes reasonable business sense to me and there are other ways to fix a lifetimed box that TiVo does not interfere with.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

nrc said:


> This is not correct. At least not with regard to TiVo. TiVo "lifetime" service has always been for the life of the box. They did allow a one time transfer for those who purchased their boxes prior to January 2000 because of some question about whether their terms were clear.
> 
> Originally TiVo service on DirecTV TiVo units were owned by Tivo and they were subject to that same limitation. But when DirecTV took over TiVo subscriptions in 2002 they took over responsibility for transferred lifetime accounts and they set their own policies for handling them.


Nitpick: the DirecTiVo subs were always owned by DirecTV - they got the money from the user from the beginning (except evidently for a couple of users in the very beginning where TiVo reps "smoothed out" the initial transaction.) DirecTV always set the policy, and the policy for DirecTiVos was that lifetime was with the account, not the machine.

As you say, standalone TiVos have always been associated with the individual machine, not the account.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

lessd said:


> You must take the cost of cable cards that can be as much a $7.5/month to $1/month into consideration


wrong.

dont confuse cable card fees which generally range from 0 to 2 dollars with additional outlet fees which are typically around 6-7 bucks.

Sometimes they package the 2 charges on the bill but the cable card is still only a buck or 2.

the big different is ANY digital box after the first will incur the additional outlet fee. So if you had 2 cable company dvr's the second would trigger the ~6 dollar fee also.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

samo said:


> No...
> 
> How about EVERY CE company? I don't know any CE manufacturer (except perhaps some no-name Chinese manufacturers on e-Bays) that does not offer out of warranty repair.


visio (sp?) I believe.

And you can spend a lot more on a visio HDTV than you can on a tivoHD box


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Speed and less expensive to TiVo. Likely they do repair the bulk by simply replacing the drive and then toss the rest. Of course you and I do not know their exact methods.
> Mainly TiVo is getting out of the business of extending lifetimed boxes. It makes reasonable business sense to me and there are other ways to fix a lifetimed box that TiVo does not interfere with.


I don't think a customer should be penalized if a company doesn't give a customer the choice between a swap and a repair. I wouldn't be surprised if tivo's refusal to repair a unit with LS, and the dollar amount of the transfer fee,causes issues with at least some consumer affairs offices.

Tivo, currently, only charges $49 if the box is under a service contract. A three contract may be the best deal for customers who are unwilling to either do their own repairs who use a third party service.

Bicker--There are logic flaws with every cost comparison that finds tivo to be less expensive, for a customer with only one DVR. However your point is still valid, a customer who thinks he's paying less doesn't fit your description of a a loyal customer.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Brainiac 5 said:


> ...
> 
> It does seem a bit of a shame to charge $350 if the problem is something extremely minor.


I totally agree- the price is excessive for a "repair"

But people should just not use the tivo "repair" service. It's obviously a rip off in most (maybe "almost all" cases). If the warranty is up then you can't void it by having work done by a 3rd party.

Use a 3rd party repair place and get it done for much cheaper. And I'd say check with the forum sponsors first for their prices.

It's like getting work done at the car dealer vs a 3rd party garage. My wife's minivan lease came with free oil changes. The last oil change they told her she needed new brakes- if she did it right now they could save us some money by not cutting the rotors- but if she waited till the next oil changes it would cost more to get the rotors cut too. I called and asked how much- remember basically pads and hardware with maybe 30 minutes of labor for an experienced mechanic. They wanted SIX HUNDRED BUCKS. If I had time I'd do it myself with 80 dollars in parts from autozone. But I'm too lazy so I went to the local tire joint and they did it for 200 including cutting the rotors (oh and they fixed a nail hole in a tire they found when it was jacked up and also rotated the tires since they had it up on the lift). I didn't come to an internet forum to complain- I just went someplace else that wasn't going to ask me to pay what I thought was an unfair price.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

lew said:


> I don't think a customer should be penalized if a company doesn't give a customer the choice between a swap and a repair. I wouldn't be surprised if tivo's refusal to repair a unit with LS, and the dollar amount of the transfer fee,causes issues with at least some consumer affairs offices...


here's the thing- who says Tivo is obligated to repair ANYTHING out of warranty? The way I see it is that they are now basically saying "go get your box fixed elsewhere, if you can't find anyone else in the world to do it then we will repair it for you for a whole lot of money". And what exactly is the problem with that?

I guess people are pissed they call it a "repair"- how about they rename the service to "last ditch swap of a refurb box when you can't find a real repair option"

No one is forcing anyone to use tivo's repair service. you can get a box repaired at a third party and tivo wont say boo.

Now if tivo demanded that only they were allowed to do "repairs" then that is a different issue.

Another example- sometimes when an alternator goes bad in a car it's like a 3 dollar diode that is shot, I dont think there's a single modern auto repair chain (dealer or 3rd party) that even knows how to check the diodes (not that I would know how either). They all just remove the alternator put in a refurb (or maybe new) and send the "core" back to get cleaned up and have new diode's put in. Got a bad break cylinder? Does anybody just change seals- doubt it- they just probably swap and rebuild. there's many examples.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Allow me to point out that TiVo _is_ repairing the hardware.

They give you a refurbed replacement, take your old box, pack it up with a few hundred others and ship them off to a depot for repair, and give those as refurbs to the next customers. Wash, rinse, repeat.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> dont confuse cable card fees which generally range from 0 to 2 dollars with additional outlet fees which are typically around 6-7 bucks.
> 
> Sometimes they package the 2 charges on the bill but the cable card is still only a buck or 2.
> 
> the big different is ANY digital box after the first will incur the additional outlet fee. So if you had 2 cable company dvr's the second would trigger the ~6 dollar fee also.


Well in my case, they charge an additional outlet fee for each cable card, so since I have an original Series 3 that requires two cable cards, I pay two outlet fees for one device. The cable company's two-tuner DVR of course only incurs one additional outlet fee. (Or, if the TiVo or DVR is your only device, you'd pay one additional outlet fee for the TiVo vs. none for the cable company DVR.) I think you have to include any fee that you wouldn't have to pay if you used the cable company's DVR to have a fair comparison, so in my case I'd include one of the two additional outlet fees.


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## TiVo_Fanatic (May 29, 2006)

TiVo_Fanatic said:


> techieunite said:
> 
> 
> > If the tivo with Lifetime has had the Lifetime service for less than 36 months, then they do NOT charge for transferring the service.
> ...


So...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Brainiac 5 said:


> Well in my case, they charge an additional outlet fee for each cable card, so since I have an original Series 3 that requires two cable cards, I pay two outlet fees for one device. The cable company's two-tuner DVR of course only incurs one additional outlet fee. (Or, if the TiVo or DVR is your only device, you'd pay one additional outlet fee for the TiVo vs. none for the cable company DVR.) I think you have to include any fee that you wouldn't have to pay if you used the cable company's DVR to have a fair comparison, so in my case I'd include one of the two additional outlet fees.


I'd include such a case as your's as well. But I think you are in the vast vast majority- fortunately for us and unfortunately for you. I'd call your provider and complain for a bit- maybe you get lucky - many seem to have realized that charging an AO fee on the second card in one device is a bit over the top- so maybe a new person would help you out.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

TiVo_Fanatic said:


> So...


transferring the service due to repair or exchange of the same exact type of box.

You can't move your lifetime from an S2 to an S3 without a deal from tivo.


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## TiVo_Fanatic (May 29, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> transferring the service due to repair or exchange of the same exact type of box.
> 
> You can't move your lifetime from an S2 to an S3 without a deal from tivo.


My question was in regards to where this is printed.



> If the tivo with Lifetime has had the Lifetime service for less than 36 months, then they do NOT charge for transferring the service.


By that wording alone is suggests that I can infact transfer my 28 month lifetime to the S3.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

TiVo_Fanatic said:


> MichaelK said:
> 
> 
> > transferring the service due to repair or exchange of the same exact type of box.
> ...


What's printed is that lifetime service applies to a specific box, and cannot be transferred to another box. They will do it in certain cases when you exchange the box, and they have sometimes had special offers to do it when a new generation of models came out, but those are exceptions to the stated policy.



> > If the tivo with Lifetime has had the Lifetime service for less than 36 months, then they do NOT charge for transferring the service.
> 
> 
> By that wording alone is suggests that I can infact transfer my 28 month lifetime to the S3.


That statement is not complete, though. It should say: when you send in your TiVo for "repair," they replace it with a refurbished unit and if your original unit had lifetime service for less than 36 months, then they do NOT charge for transferring the service to the refurbished box that they are sending back to you. That's the only circumstance this applies to.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

kasten said:


> If you have that document TIVO will honor your request... at least in my case. As one service manager indicated... just fax over the documentation (seems TIVO does not retain historical information) and we will transfer a lifetime subscription to you new unit.


Nice customer service. Make the customer regurgitate the documentation that TIVO sent out in the first place. TIVO knows you have a Series 1 box, they know you have lifetime service and they know what the agreement was.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

lew said:


> I don't think a customer should be penalized if a company doesn't give a customer the choice between a swap and a repair. I wouldn't be surprised if tivo's refusal to repair a unit with LS, and the dollar amount of the transfer fee,causes issues with at least some consumer affairs offices.


TiVo's defintion of *P*roduct *L*ifetime *S*ervice that has been made very very clear over the years is that it is for the lifetime of the hardware. When the hardware no longer functions, the PLS ceases to exist.

The fact that Tivo sometimes, under certain conditions, gives their customers their PLS back on a different unit for a discounted price, vs the regular price of PLS, is not something that any consumer affairs office would have any interest in unless they were looking for companies that go above and beyond what they are required to do for their customers.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> TiVo's defintion of *P*roduct *L*ifetime *S*ervice that has been made very very clear over the years is that it is for the lifetime of the hardware. When the hardware no longer functions, the PLS ceases to exist.


I think lew's point was, if they would repair the unit and return the same unit to you, then it would be very very clear that the PLS was still good.



> The fact that Tivo sometimes, under certain conditions, gives their customers their PLS back on a different unit for a discounted price, vs the regular price of PLS, is not something that any consumer affairs office would have any interest in unless they were looking for companies that go above and beyond what they are required to do for their customers.


I'm not about to bring a complaint against TiVo for anything, but I think the complaint lew has in mind is that TiVo does not provide any way to get repairs on their product. Usually a manufacturer would provide such services or authorize third parties to do so. I would not at all be surprised if there were laws in some areas of the country that require manufacturers to do this - there certainly are for some items (like automobiles, where they have to make parts and repair information available, etc.). As others have pointed out, it is unfortunate that TiVo usually does actually repair your unit but they won't send that same one back to you (they'll send it to someone else later). The distinction didn't matter when they didn't charge to transfer the service, but now that they do, it becomes important.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Brainiac 5 said:


> ...
> I'm not about to bring a complaint against TiVo for anything, but I think the complaint lew has in mind is that TiVo does not provide any way to get repairs on their product. Usually a manufacturer would provide such services or authorize third parties to do so. I would not at all be surprised if there were laws in some areas of the country that require manufacturers to do this - there certainly are for some items (like automobiles, where they have to make parts and repair information available, etc.). As others have pointed out, it is unfortunate that TiVo usually does actually repair your unit but they won't send that same one back to you (they'll send it to someone else later). The distinction didn't matter when they didn't charge to transfer the service, but now that they do, it becomes important.


maybe I'm jaded but i doubt there's any law anywhere in the US (well maybe in the peoples republic of california where everything is known to cause cancer- laughing)- that requires any CE manufacturer to repair anything out of warrenty.

Where would you draw the line? I bought a pair of mp3 speakers I got at the 5below so they cost less than 5 bucks- if they break does the manufacturer need to repair them? 10 years ago I bought a universal remote- i dropped it and one of the buttons fell off- can i force them to repair it for me? My father in law has an RCA reel to reel player from around the vietnam war- should RCA be required to repair it? How would such a law work.

MAYBE, maybe, some place could force tivo to change their wording from repair to something more specific like 'swap with refurbished unit". Has anyone even found the wording they use on the website? Maybe it says "service" or something???


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

http://www.tivo.com/buytivo/dvrlimitedwarranty.html



> What is covered?
> TiVo has its digital video recorders ("DVRs") manufactured from parts and components that are new or equivalent to new in accordance with industry-standard practices. TiVo warrants that the DVR will be free from defects in materials and workmanship during the limited warranty period described herein. The limited warranty coverage begins the day you purchase the product as further described in the following text. For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be *replaced *with a repaired, renewed or comparable products (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) if it becomes defective or inoperative. This *exchange *is done without charge to you for parts and labor (including applicable taxes, if any). You will be responsible for the cost of shipping. From 90 days to 1 year from the date of purchase your DVR will be *replaced *with a repaired, renewed, or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) if it becomes defective or inoperative. You will be responsible for all labor and shipping costs (including applicable taxes, if any). Contact Customer Support at the phone number found in the "Troubleshooting" chapter of the Installation Guide to obtain your cost (labor costs) for exchange.
> 
> All products, including replacement products, are covered only for the original warranty period. When the warranty on the original product expires, the warranty on the replacement product also expires. After one year from the date of purchase, you pay for the replacement of all parts, and for all labor and shipping charges (including applicable taxes.)





> To get out-of-warranty *service*&#8230;
> Out-of-warranty *service *can be obtained at a nominal cost for *replacement *and handling. to obtain out-of-warranty service contact Customer Support at the number found on the back of this Installation Guide to obtain the cost of out-of-warranty exchange for your product.


seems pretty clear to me they aren't offering any repair service. They are offering an exchange service.

if people want a repair then call weakness or 9th tee or whoever. but tivo isn't going to repair anything.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

kasten said:


> For those original owners (series 1 at least in this case) with a lifetime subscription, there was an agreement that TIVO sent you indicating your lifetime subscription is for the unit and can be transferred to another unit should your unit become inoperable. If you have that document TIVO will honor your request... at least in my case. As one service manager indicated... just fax over the documentation (seems TIVO does not retain historical information) and we will transfer a lifetime subscription to you new unit.





shwru980r said:


> Nice customer service. Make the customer regurgitate the documentation that TIVO sent out in the first place. TIVO knows you have a Series 1 box, they know you have lifetime service and they know what the agreement was.


yeah, that was one CSR I think. I did not search for it but their is a policy number you can give that will point them to the correct policy and then they use the TSN to verify it is covered and clean of any other transfer.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> I don't think a customer should be penalized if a company doesn't give a customer the choice between a swap and a repair.


The customer can have the box fixed without taking advantage of out-of-warranty service. It is completely up to the customer.



lew said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if tivo's refusal to repair a unit with LS, and the dollar amount of the transfer fee,causes issues with at least some consumer affairs offices.


Given that out-of-warranty service is not covered by the warranty, there is no basis on which consumer affairs should be interested. In the scenarios we're discussing, TiVo provides exactly what they promised -- exactly what consumer affairs advocates should be applauding.



lew said:


> Bicker--There are logic flaws with every cost comparison that finds tivo to be less expensive, for a customer with only one DVR.


I disagree.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> maybe I'm jaded but i doubt there's any law anywhere in the US (well maybe in the peoples republic of california where everything is known to cause cancer- laughing)- that requires any CE manufacturer to repair anything out of warrenty.


I freely admit that I don't know that there is any such requirement, anywhere. But one reason I wouldn't be surprised if there is, though, is that many manufacturers _do_ offer a way to repair their products, or at least get replacement parts, even though it is clearly ridiculous to do so. I once had a Pioneer DVD player and the remote for it stopped working. I inquired at Pioneer, and even though the player was fairly old, they said I could in fact get a replacement remote (the exact remote for that model). Of course it would cost a ridiculous amount of money considering that DVD players practically come in cereal boxes, so even though it was a particularly nice DVD player I just got rid of it.



> Where would you draw the line? I bought a pair of mp3 speakers I got at the 5below so they cost less than 5 bucks- if they break does the manufacturer need to repair them? 10 years ago I bought a universal remote- i dropped it and one of the buttons fell off- can i force them to repair it for me? My father in law has an RCA reel to reel player from around the vietnam war- should RCA be required to repair it? How would such a law work.


I don't think it would be that hard to set limits based on the cost of the item or how long ago it was manufactured. Such laws exist for automobiles (which admittedly are in a class of their own due to their high price).

Actually, that reminds me of a funny story (that doesn't prove anything, it's just funny). Once I went to a corporate event at which they were handing out these little pink plastic battery-powered electric fans. They looked like they cost about 5 cents. In the box with the fan was a little booklet, that included instructions on how to send it back to the manufacturer if it needed to be "serviced!" Me and my co-workers found this incredibly hilarious...



> MAYBE, maybe, some place could force tivo to change their wording from repair to something more specific like 'swap with refurbished unit". Has anyone even found the wording they use on the website? Maybe it says "service" or something???


If the complaint was that TiVo doesn't offer any way to get the unit repaired, then I think changing the wording to make that explicit doesn't really help. I'm not sure anyone ever said that TiVo claimed they offered repairs, people just want them to.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Brainiac 5 said:


> I think lew's point was, if they would repair the unit and return the same unit to you, then it would be very very clear that the PLS was still good.


They have no obligation to repair anything *out of warranty*. The Tivo died. They'll gladly sell you a replacement and give you a discount on PLS.



> I'm not about to bring a complaint against TiVo for anything, but I think the complaint lew has in mind is that TiVo does not provide any way to get repairs on their product. Usually a manufacturer would provide such services or authorize third parties to do so. I would not at all be surprised if there were laws in some areas of the country that require manufacturers to do this - there certainly are for some items (like automobiles, where they have to make parts and repair information available, etc.).


Any 3rd party can fix your *out of warranty* Tivo. They don't care and they never have.



> As others have pointed out, it is unfortunate that TiVo usually does actually repair your unit but they won't send that same one back to you (they'll send it to someone else later). The distinction didn't matter when they didn't charge to transfer the service, but now that they do, it becomes important.


Tivo used to offer a great deal for *out of warranty* service. Now they've changed it and may only offer an OK deal. When it's *out of warranty*, they don't have to do a god damned thing for you.

*OUT OF WARRANTY*
Why do so many people have such difficulty with the concept?
It's not that difficult, people. Really, it's not.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Brainiac 5 said:


> I freely admit that I don't know that there is any such requirement, anywhere. But one reason I wouldn't be surprised if there is, though, is that many manufacturers _do_ offer a way to repair their products, or at least get replacement parts, even though it is clearly ridiculous to do so.


That's self-defining. You think something is true, because you think it would be silly if it was untrue. :down:



Brainiac 5 said:


> I don't think it would be that hard to set limits based on the cost of the item or how long ago it was manufactured.


I think it would be.



Brainiac 5 said:


> Such laws exist for automobiles (which admittedly are in a class of their own due to their high price).


Which laws require someone to fix a car after its *reasonable *warranty period has expired?

Y'see -- I think that is what confused you. The laws require fitness for purpose, not out-of-warranty service.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Why are so many people having difficulty with the concept
> => *out of warranty*





scandia101 said:


> *OUT OF WARRANTY*
> Why do so many people have such difficulty with the concept?
> It's not that difficult, people. Really, it's not.


well there is one more person that gets out of warranty, which is indeed the whole key in this thread.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> They have no obligation to repair anything *out of warranty*. The Tivo died. They'll gladly sell you a replacement and give you a discount on PLS.


Other than someone's speculation that some consumer protection agency might not like them not offering any repairs, I don't think anyone has said TiVo was obligated. The other posters would LIKE for them to offer it.



> Any 3rd party can fix your *out of warranty* Tivo. They don't care and they never have.


Absolutely.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Brainiac 5 said:


> Other than someone's speculation that some consumer protection agency might not like them not offering any repairs, I don't think anyone has said TiVo was obligated. The other posters would LIKE for them to offer it.
> 
> Absolutely.


To me the clamor seemed to more skew towards TiVo needs to offer this versus I would like TiVo to offer this. Many are indeed acting as if TiVo is trashing their Lifetime Service agreement


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

bicker said:


> Brainiac 5 said:
> 
> 
> > I freely admit that I don't know that there is any such requirement, anywhere. But one reason I wouldn't be surprised if there is, though, is that many manufacturers do offer a way to repair their products, or at least get replacement parts, even though it is clearly ridiculous to do so.
> ...


Well, no. If you re-read, I didn't say I thought it was true, I said I wouldn't be surprised if it was true, which is a much weaker statement. In my experience, whenever I've checked about a specific item, repair or replacement parts were available, so I'm thinking manufacturers have _some_ incentive to do it. Whether that's a law or they just feel like doing it I don't know.



> Which laws require someone to fix a car after its *reasonable *warranty period has expired?


I didn't say they were required to fix it, I said that they were required to do certain things to make it possible for _someone_ to fix it. However, I can't find any references for that at the moment, so I will concede the point.



> Y'see -- I think that is what confused you. The laws require fitness for purpose, not out-of-warranty service.


It certainly doesn't require manufacturers to perform out-of-warranty service, I agree on that. But lawmakers are not above stepping in to try to ensure that service is available from someone - for instance, the recently proposed Right-To-Repair Act of 2009 (H.R. 2057) (which concerns manufacturers making it difficult for third parties to repair cars.)

I find myself in an awkward position in this discussion, since as I've stated I'm fine with what TiVo is offering. I just don't think that the people who are complaining about it are totally crazy. It's true that in most cases TiVo is going to fix the unit you send in, they'll just send it back to someone else. If they sent you back your own unit instead, your lifetime subscription would still be valid. I acknowledge that's a tough break.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Brainiac 5 said:


> Well, no. If you re-read, I didn't say I thought it was true, I said I wouldn't be surprised if it was true, which is a much weaker statement. In my experience, whenever I've checked about a specific item, repair or replacement parts were available, so I'm thinking manufacturers have _some_ incentive to do it. Whether that's a law or they just feel like doing it I don't know.
> 
> I didn't say they were required to fix it, I said that they were required to do certain things to make it possible for _someone_ to fix it. However, I can't find any references for that at the moment, so I will concede the point.
> 
> ...


When TiVo "repairs" any Series 3 they change the PROM (or puts in a new MB) so the 2nd set of four numbers (of the TSN) goes from XXX-0001-XXXX-XXXX to XXX-0011-XXXX-XXXX and they most likely eliminates your original TSN and the Lifetime that went with it. I have seen some refurbished TiVo-HD units and it not clear (to me) what if any parts TiVo reuses.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Brainiac 5 said:


> Well, no. If you re-read, I didn't say I thought it was true, I said I wouldn't be surprised if it was true, which is a much weaker statement.


Granted.



Brainiac 5 said:


> I didn't say they were required to fix it, I said that they were required to do certain things to make it possible for _someone_ to fix it. However, I can't find any references for that at the moment, so I will concede the point.


Thanks.



Brainiac 5 said:


> It certainly doesn't require manufacturers to perform out-of-warranty service, I agree on that. But lawmakers are not above stepping in to try to ensure that service is available from someone - for instance, the recently proposed Right-To-Repair Act of 2009 (H.R. 2057) (which concerns manufacturers making it difficult for third parties to repair cars.)


Again the only tangentially-relevant example anyone can come up with is cars. Cars have been a special case for a very long time.



Brainiac 5 said:


> I find myself in an awkward position in this discussion, since as I've stated I'm fine with what TiVo is offering. I just don't think that the people who are complaining about it are totally crazy.


I think it is important to draw a distinction between being unhappy and thinking that there is something to direct a complaint at a supplier about. I complain about TiVo; but I also readily acknowledge that there is no rational basis for expecting TiVo to have done anything differently. That's the quickest way to avoiding appearing "totally crazy" in this context.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

donnoh said:


> Keep the inside of your Tivo clean, put it on a UPS, change a hard drive occasionally and there is no reason why it shouldn't last several years.


Unless it inexplicably dies after 15 months and it's not a hard drive issue and both the box and drive power up.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bicker said:


> Many consumers have a very warped sense of what customer loyalty is. Customer loyalty is the willingness of customers to purchase your products or services at a premium... that means paying *more* -- not less.


That's perfectly true, and indeed many people seem to fail to realize owning and using a Tivo for a long period of time does not constitute being a loyal customer from TiVo's point of view. A "loyal customer" in this sense would have rushed out to buy a new TiVo every year, or at least every new model of TiVo, and would never have pushed a Tivo with a lifetime subscription beyond about 2 years of use.

That said, many companies do indeed offer special discounts or preferential offers to customers who properly qualify as being loyal, especially if their purchasing habits involve fairly steady higher than average volumes of product. A diaper service may offer a discount to families with twins or triplets after the first six months, for example. It makes good business sense from a number of perspectives to offer moderate compensations and slightly preferential treatment to customers who have demonstrated some measure of loyalty, especially in a very competitive market.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bicker said:


> I think it is important to draw a distinction between being unhappy and thinking that there is something to direct a complaint at a supplier about. I complain about TiVo; but I also readily acknowledge that there is no rational basis for expecting TiVo to have done anything differently. That's the quickest way to avoiding appearing "totally crazy" in this context.


I'm not quite sure why you make this distinction, or in what context it is meant.

One can always complain to a manufacturer concerning their policies. Outside of legal libilities, the manufacturer needn't listen to the complaint, of course, but that's not the salient point. They certainly can listen if they choose, and in some cases may. Surely a compelling business argument accompanying the complaint should make it more likely the company will take notice and act upon it. Consumers do have relevant things to say sometimes, after all, even if they are based in dissatisfaction. OTOH, the giant bureaucracy of most corporations can make it very difficult for any suggestion to get to the right place for implementation. Tivo is a rather small company, though.

OTOH, if you mean it is meaningless for armchair engineers or businessmen to pontificate endlessly in chat fora over what a manufacturer "should" do, especially if the plaintiff has little or no understanding of the costs and risks associated with such actions, then you are right. It's just hot air. It's also rather annoying, at least to me. That said, everyone has a right to express their opinion, especially if they make it clear it is just their opinion, and this is as appropriate a forum as any for venting one's frustrations. One crosses the line, however, if one suggests a company should fundamentally restructure its business case for no other reason than because one consumer is frustrated.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bicker said:


> Again the only tangentially-relevant example anyone can come up with is cars. Cars have been a special case for a very long time.


Well, it varies from state to state, but there are others. Houses are one example. Some states have specific regulations covering house construction over very long periods of time well outside the average builder's warranty. Some states also have fairly stringent regulations concerning how much anyone - including manufacturers - may limit their liability.

Most manufacturers of major appliances offer replacement parts for items they sell. Since they actually make money on selling such parts, there is absolutely no reason for them not to do so. Some also bank upon a more aggressive warranty being able to sell more product, and so both the manufacturer of the faucet in my kitchen sink and the manufacturer of the recliner sofa in my theater have lifetime warranties on the parts making up the units. Both have made good on their warranties for me, replacing failed components. One even paid for shipping. When a part on my ice maker failed, it was out of warranty, but the manufacturer still cheerfully sent me the part for $4 plus $10 shipping. 

Smaller, less expensive items, however, are generally not worth repairing. Other than the hard drive, fan, front panel dispaly, or the power supply, if a TiVo fails, it isn't going to be worth the effort to troubleshoot and repair the component at board level, so it's cheaper to just replace it. Once past warranty, there isn't much of a revenue stream for Tivo to repair anything, so they don't offer such a service or repair parts.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> To me the clamor seemed to more skew towards TiVo needs to offer this versus I would like TiVo to offer this. Many are indeed acting as if TiVo is trashing their Lifetime Service agreement


Some have, yes, but the bottom line is the LSA is not a warranty. Of course, I would no doubt be mightily pissed if I bought a TiVo, paid for month-month service for a year or so, then paid $400 to upgrade to lifetime service and a month later the TiVo went up in smoke. It woud not be TiVo's fault, though. I was mightily pissed when the air conditioning went out on my 6 year old Pontiac Fiero and I had it repaired at a cost of over $1400 (in 1988 dollars), and three weeks later the car caught fire and burned to the ground.

Stuff happens, people.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bicker said:


> That's self-defining. You think something is true, because you think it would be silly if it was untrue. :down:


It's not self-defining. It references an external object - silliness in the real world. In addition, reductio ad absurdum is a perfectly valid method of deductive proof. One defines some binary attribute in a particular way and then shows such a definition leads to a paradox. Having shown this to be the case, and in the absence of any ability to show the reverse also leads to a paradox, the reverse attribute must be correct. In this case, showing that something being false causes silly results suggests it should be true.

Whether the OP has in actuality shown the silliness would result from the proposition being false is a proof I leave up to the student.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> To me the clamor seemed to more skew towards TiVo needs to offer this versus I would like TiVo to offer this. Many are indeed acting as if TiVo is trashing their Lifetime Service agreement





lrhorer said:


> Some have, yes, but the bottom line is the LSA is not a warranty. Of course, I would no doubt be mightily pissed if I bought a TiVo, paid for month-month service for a year or so, then paid $400 to upgrade to lifetime service and a month later the TiVo went up in smoke. It woud not be TiVo's fault, though. I was mightily pissed when the air conditioning went out on my 6 year old Pontiac Fiero and I had it repaired at a cost of over $1400 (in 1988 dollars), and three weeks later the car caught fire and burned to the ground.
> 
> Stuff happens, people.





bicker said:


> I think it is important to draw a distinction between being unhappy and thinking that there is something to direct a complaint at a supplier about. I complain about TiVo; but I also readily acknowledge that there is no rational basis for expecting TiVo to have done anything differently. That's the quickest way to avoiding appearing "totally crazy" in this context.





lrhorer said:


> I'm not quite sure why you make this distinction, or in what context it is meant.
> 
> One can always complain to a manufacturer concerning their policies. Outside of legal libilities, the manufacturer needn't listen to the complaint, of course, but that's not the salient point. They certainly can listen if they choose, and in some cases may. Surely a compelling business argument accompanying the complaint should make it more likely the company will take notice and act upon it. Consumers do have relevant things to say sometimes, after all, even if they are based in dissatisfaction.


why are you arguing the very thing you end up agreeing with?


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

When you purchase a TIVO do you own the TSN that is associated with that TIVO? Is it legal for the user or a third party to change the TSN of a new TIVO to the TSN of the broken TIVO?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> When you purchase a TIVO do you own the TSN that is associated with that TIVO? Is it legal for the user or a third party to change the TSN of a new TIVO to the TSN of the broken TIVO?


Good question, assuming you own both TiVo DVRs it becomes a gray area - now if you keep both TiVo DVRs in service or take an old model TSN to a new model(which likely is not possible) then you do end up illegal again


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> why are you arguing the very thing you end up agreeing with?


I was thinking the same thing, earlier, but figured it would be pretty silly to argue against arguing against arguing against arguing. 

How about this: Let's let everyone have their own say, without questioning why they felt that having their own opinion was important to them. Okay?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

shwru980r said:


> When you purchase a TIVO do you own the TSN that is associated with that TIVO? Is it legal for the user or a third party to change the TSN of a new TIVO to the TSN of the broken TIVO?


That would be theft of service and be illegal under TiVos T&C, but so is downloading a song/movie you did not pay for, once you can change the TSN why not have many TiVos with the same TSN and pay only once for TiVo service. (Yes i know that MRV would be a problem)


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

This is kind of off topic, but since we are speaking of selling a lifetime Tivo. Is there a certain amount of time I should wait before transferring a Tivo with lifetime service to my account? 

I ended up skipping on the father's day promotion and buying one of my friend's lifetime Tivo HDs. He only activated it within the past 24 hours so I didn't know if it would mess up anything if I transferred it this soon. 

Apparently he didn't tell his wife he bought 3 Tivo HDs much less that he was buying lifetime for all of them.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

_"assuming you own both TiVo DVRs "_

Yes, for the purpose of transferring a lifetime subscription ot a new tivo. If tivo can change the TSN with an eprom programming device, then others should be able to.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> This is kind of off topic, but since we are speaking of selling a lifetime Tivo. Is there a certain amount of time I should wait before transferring a Tivo with lifetime service to my account?
> 
> I ended up skipping on the father's day promotion and buying one of my friend's lifetime Tivo HDs. He only activated it within the past 24 hours so I didn't know if it would mess up anything if I transferred it this soon.
> 
> Apparently he didn't tell his wife he bought 3 Tivo HDs much less that he was buying lifetime for all of them.


Not to worry. If it shows up on his account, and it indicates lifetime service,, it should be ready for a transfer.

In any case you can run Guided Setup and use it right away. You just need the transfer to get MRV with your other TiVos working.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> I was thinking the same thing, earlier, but figured it would be pretty silly to argue against arguing against arguing against arguing.
> 
> How about this: Let's let everyone have their own say, without questioning why they felt that having their own opinion was important to them. Okay?


Well I totally disagree with you on this since I was just asking lrhorer a question and not looking to argue with him


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

netringer said:


> Not to worry. If it shows up on his account, and it indicates lifetime service,, it should be ready for a transfer.
> 
> In any case you can run Guided Setup and use it right away. You just need the transfer to get MRV with your other TiVos working.


Thanks. I will have him check his account tomorrow to make sure. I wasn't sure what to look for when I was over there today. I know the unit itself says lifetime service but I don't know what his Tivo account says.

EDIT: He says his account shows lifetime but I am kind of concerned since it is now almost 3 days and the charge still hasn't posted while other charges have. I guess I will give it another day.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> why are you arguing the very thing you end up agreeing with?


I wasn't arguing. I asked bicker to clarify his intent. Taken one way, it could mean he was saying something similar to my earlier post. Taken the other, he wasn't. In addition, the two statements you quoted of mine cover different aspects of the issue. It is a fact the LSA is not a warranty. Anyone who thinks it is a warranty is simply incorrect. OTOH, anyone who thinks it should be a warranty is free to express that viewpoint to TiVo's customer service. The two things are very different concepts. Finally, while it is their right to complain to TiVo or in this forum what they think should be, as opposed to what is, my point in the earlier post was it is my opinion they should think a bit more carefully about what deserves to gather complaints. Bicker's post could be interpreted to say they do not have the right to complain. I don't know that was his intent, but it is one possible interpretation. My point would be better expressed that while the person definitely has the right to complain, the fact one has a right does not mean one should necessarily take advantage of it. To put it more succinctly, we all have the right to express our opinions, but sometimes we may be better served by shutting up.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ... I was just asking lrhorer a question and not looking to argue with him


How'd that work out for you?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> I wasn't arguing.


well I meant the word in the context of debating - eg; the esteemed Gentleman will argue the pro on warranties. After that I do indeed still agree with your points made, though we may disagree on when to put in practice your last point  


bicker said:


> How'd that work out for you?


just fine actually. The esteemed gentleman clarified his remarks and yielded the floor for any rebuttal.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> <stuff said>





bicker said:


> <stuff said>





lrhorer said:


> <stuff said>


I like you guys.
Polite, intelligent, calm, to the point.
Why doesn't the rest of the world learn?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> just fine actually. The esteemed gentleman clarified his remarks and yielded the floor for any rebuttal.


Well, thank you. That I am held in esteem by someone is a most pleasing thought. The fact we disagree from time to time is not only inevitable, it is part of the fun, if you ask me. Realizing in that disagreement, you recognize the value of my contribution is not limited by what you perceive to be the validity of my statements is both gratifying to me and a credit to you. I assure you I hold you and most of the participants in this forum in similar regard. There are exceptions, such as one poster who recently for no good reason whatsoever took it upon himself to flame and personally insult another poster for asking a perfectly valid - if simple - question.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well I meant the word in the context of debating - eg; the esteemed Gentleman will argue the pro on warranties. After that I do indeed still agree with your points made, though we may disagree on when to put in practice your last point


Well, I'll allow you can be subtle.  The notion perhaps I sometimes don't know when to shut up has crossed my mind from time to time. I've always dismissed it as being foolish.


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