# Series 3 and the MCard?



## danjw1 (Sep 13, 2005)

Does the series 3 support using a single mcard with both tuners?

I am concerned because I am returning my tivo for a warranty replacement and they said they would send me a series 3 instead. I asked if the m-card would work properly, and the csr said yes. But, I was just checking the cable card faq thread and it says it doesn't. Do I need to have Tivo send me an HD so I don't have to pay a monthly few for a second cable card?

Thanks,

Dan


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

The m-card will work on the S3, but only as a single tuner. Therefore you would need 2.

However, the S3 may be worth the extra cost for the added benefits (storage, remote, etc.).


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

I have an S3 running with 2 M-cards with no problems.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

if it was me - I would ask for another TiVo HD


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

i agree a TiVo HD with one M-Card so you reduce the chance of having the cards not communicating with each other 

one card should elimate that problem


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

I wouldn't accept a S3 for a warranty replacement for a TiVo HD. They are just trying to dump the remaining S3 stock they have most likely.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

radtechy said:


> i agree a TiVo HD with one M-Card so you reduce the chance of having the cards not communicating with each other
> 
> one card should elimate that problem


The cards do not communicate with each other, only back to the head-end of the cable system.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Dan, I've checked and it's not our policy to replace a TiVo HD with a Series3 product. I believe the call agent was mistaken in what he told you. If you can send me a private message with your case number or contact info we can use that to look into this.

Thanks!
Pony


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## HiKent (Nov 2, 2006)

Pony,

Back to the real question: Is M-Card support in the S3 ever going to arrive? Have you forgotten, or is it technically impossible?

Here, TWC charges over $200/year for the second S-Card. I would have replaced my S3 long ago with an THD were it not for my lifetime service & the hope you might add support RealSoonNow. The Owner's Manual and the silkscreen on the back indicate it was planned, so maybe it's coming -- just like the Blue LED for network transfers didn't work -- and then one day it did...

Why not take a page from the Netflix playbook & lay it out. Something like "the chipset doesn't work reliably with SA M-Cards", or "we've been chasing down pixelation & didn't think M-Cards are that big of a deal", or "sorry you're screwed by TWC -- we can transfer lifetime to a THD if that would help", etc.

Thanks.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

HiKent said:


> Pony,
> 
> Back to the real question: Is M-Card support in the S3 ever going to arrive? Have you forgotten, or is it technically impossible?
> 
> ...


We're not going to get an answer, but ditto. My provider can't get my 2nd cc to work in my S3 (after it working for a year and a half) and I honestly don't think it's broken, but they are incompetent. Lifetime on it keeps me from going the Tivo HD route. I still hold out a tiny bit of hope, but bringing new (if you can call it that) features to a discontinued model seems _extremely_ unlikely.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

HiKent said:


> Here, TWC charges over $200/year for the second S-Card.


What! You mean they charge you over $17 per month for a second card in the same device? I hope that you have reported this to the FCC and your local Franchise Authority. I know that the FCC never set any rates for these cards but I would think that rate is excessive and violates the intent of cablecard support.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jrm01 said:


> What! You mean they charge you over $17 per month for a second card in the same device? I hope that you have reported this to the FCC and your local Franchise Authority. I know that the FCC never set any rates for these cards but I would think that rate is excessive and violates the intent of cablecard support.


In many cases, the 2nd card itself isn't that much. However, they will try to charge you with an outlet fee. So technically, they can get around the guidelines set by the FCC even if they are ripping you off.


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## HiKent (Nov 2, 2006)

That's right: $8/month additional outlet + $6.95 HD fee (per cablecard) + $3.10/month cablecard rental + 8.7&#37; tax/franchise fee = Total: $19.62/mo or $235/year.

Of course, they aren't currently charging the HD fee (per cablecard). They canceled that last October when they removed *all HD* from cablecard because of SDV (even though only a few of the HD channels are actually SDV, but that's a different thread...)


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

HiKent said:


> Back to the real question: Is M-Card support in the S3 ever going to arrive? Have you forgotten, or is it technically impossible?


The page that used to state that they were examining single M-Card support for the S3 is no longer on TiVo's site. Add that to the fact that it's been almost 2 years since the S3 came out and that (new) S3's are no longer for sale and I think it's pretty clear that they've given up supporting a single M-Card in the S3.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

HiKent said:


> Pony,
> 
> Back to the real question: Is M-Card support in the S3 ever going to arrive? Have you forgotten, or is it technically impossible?


As I explained in April, this is a risky development proposition. I will never say never, because there are very few absolutes (except death and taxes of course). But it's very, very unlikely.

From earlier this year:


TiVoPony said:


> Likewise, features such as QAM remapping and M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers, both are in fact very small numbers of subscribers. That doesn't mean that they automatically get set aside, or that TiVo is ignoring or doesn't care about those customers. But it is a consideration when trading off those features against others (M-Card for S3 is technically possible, but also technically very complex. We've learned that there is a lot of risk inherent in that development).


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## HiKent (Nov 2, 2006)

TiVoPony said:


> As I explained in April, this is a risky development proposition. I will never say never, because there are very few absolutes (except death and taxes of course). But it's very, very unlikely.


Sorry, I was travelling in April & missed that posting.

This is very disappointing news. As I say above, the charge here is over $200/year for the second cablecard. It's disappointing to have bought an $800 machine (plus lifetime xfer charge), and after 1 year have TWC move all HD to SDV, then the next year see the $200/year additional charge is for the lifetime of the unit. (Not to mention that TWC has marked almost all the channels CCI=02.) My original S1 was a constant joy I hated to retire. My S3 -- seems more like I was trapped...

I know it's not all TiVo's fault, but...


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

TiVoPony said:


> As I explained in April, this is a risky development proposition. I will never say never, because there are very few absolutes (except death and taxes of course). But it's very, very unlikely.


I, for one, will certainly keep this in mind next time I decide whether to support TiVo as an early adopter. The S3 has clear printing on the back that certainly could have left one with the impression that full M-card support was coming. Oh well. I guess I'll wait until the second generation of the Tru2Way TiVo comes out in 2012...


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

HiKent said:


> That's right: $8/month additional outlet + $6.95 HD fee (per cablecard) + $3.10/month cablecard rental + 8.7% tax/franchise fee = Total: $19.62/mo or $235/year.


Good grief, that's horrible! I feel for you. And you didn't even include the fee for the truck roll...

High cost is the main reason I haven't gotten any CableCARDs for my S3, but since TiVo continues to offer woefully inadequate support for clear QAM recording, I'm left with a questionable TiVo experience and certainly not anything I can recommend to my friends and family. For those of us who only want to record clear QAM channels, it's a rock and a hard place.


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## Tommy_D (Feb 24, 2006)

Comcast installed one Mcard in my series 3. I asked for two to utilize dual tuner capability but was told that I only needed one. While the Comcast technician was in my home I tested the series 3 and the installer was right!! I am able to record two HD channels with only 1 Mcard.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Tommy_D said:


> Comcast installed one Mcard in my series 3. I asked for two to utilize dual tuner capability but was told that I only needed one. While the Comcast technician was in my home I tested the series 3 and the installer was right!! I am able to record two HD channels with only 1 Mcard.


Hmmm....are you positive? From what I've read on these fora, no one has ever been able to record two HD channels with a single M card (and no card in the other slot) in the S3. Is yours is an actual, original S3 (the first HD TiVo released two years ago)? Not the TiVo HD or XL (which are also classified under the Series 3 "umbrella").


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

rainwater said:


> I wouldn't accept a S3 for a warranty replacement for a TiVo HD. They are just trying to dump the remaining S3 stock they have most likely.


I would jump at the chance to have my TiVoHDs replaced with the S3.
The S3 is better, especially with the audio. My S3 boxes audio come right up in a split second with channel changes, but my TiVoHD boxes take one to two seconds for the audio to come up.

My only complaint with the S3 boxes are the cable card slot locations. The back is not a good place for the cablecard slot in a SetTopBox.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Record two premium digital channels and see what happens.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

IIRC, some have noticed it works until you repeat guided setup (for your new channels). I could be wrong though...


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## drew00001 (Jan 13, 2007)

TiVoPony said:


> Likewise, features such as QAM remapping and *M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers*, both are in fact very small numbers of subscribers.


I expect the majority of S3 owners would prefer to use an M-Card, especially since Comacast is charging excessive fees for a 2nd Card. I pay $5.10 a month ($61.20 per year) for my 2nd Cablecard. TiVo could make a lot of its dedicated client base (early adopters who bought the S3) happy by saving them this money.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

drew00001 said:


> I expect the majority of S3 owners would prefer to use an M-Card, especially since Comacast is charging excessive fees for a 2nd Card. I pay $5.10 a month ($61.20 per year) for my 2nd Cablecard. TiVo could make a lot of its dedicated client base (early adopters who bought the S3) happy by saving them this money.


If you are being billed that way by Comcast, you need to call them back. They have a CableCARD package especially for the TiVo. The first card is free with the digital package and the second card is around a buck and a half.

Refer to this when you call:

http://www.comcast.com/customers/faq/FaqDetails.ashx?Id=2651

The line item on my bill reads: "Add'l Digital Outlet(s): Cable Card Same Outlet Charge - $1.50"


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

TiVoPony said:


> As I explained in April, this is a risky development proposition. I will never say never, because there are very few absolutes (except death and taxes of course). But it's very, very unlikely.


While the numbers on M-Card support are small, they represent the folk who are willing to pay a pretty high premium for TiVo product right out of the chute. While there is an up-front expense for providing that support, there is some value in ensuring that crowd will be there, wallet in hand, for your next big release.

Some time in the future, folk may look at how the early adopters were handled -- no M-Card, long wait for TTG, etc, and decide to wait a year following the next product introduction, just to see how things shake out.

Its not a big deal for most, on its own, but it is added to the equation when considering the Series 4, whatever that will be.


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## drew00001 (Jan 13, 2007)

sinanju said:


> If you are being billed that way by Comcast, you need to call them back. They have a CableCARD package especially for the TiVo. The first card is free with the digital package and the second card is around a buck and a half.
> 
> Refer to this when you call:
> 
> ...


I spoke with a Comcast CSR once about this, as I have seen other indviduals being charged $1.79. I will give it another shot after reading your link. Thanks.


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## drew00001 (Jan 13, 2007)

drew00001 said:


> I spoke with a Comcast CSR once about this, as I have seen other indviduals being charged $1.79. I will give it another shot after reading your link. Thanks.


I called again, and this time the CSR was either smarter, reasonable, or better informed . . . probably all 3. In any case, my 2nd Cablecard fee is reduced to $1.79.

On a separate note, Pony, I have 2 TiVo (1 THD & 1 S3), and it would be very helpful if the S3 could use a M-Card. This way I could have cablecards for both boxes, without paying for a additional port, not to mention saving the 3rd Cablecard fee altogether.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

sinanju said:


> While the numbers on M-Card support are small, they represent the folk who are willing to pay a pretty high premium for TiVo product right out of the chute. While there is an up-front expense for providing that support, there is some value in ensuring that crowd will be there, wallet in hand, for your next big release.
> 
> Some time in the future, folk may look at how the early adopters were handled -- no M-Card, long wait for TTG, etc, and decide to wait a year following the next product introduction, just to see how things shake out.
> 
> Its not a big deal for most, on its own, but it is added to the equation when considering the Series 4, whatever that will be.


I've got 2 S3s, bought 1 the first day out. Both have 2 S-cards at $4/mo each. They work, and work well. I'm OK with them working as they are, it's just not a huge deal for the S3s to work on an M card (assuming Verizon had any).

Besides, V would charge me for a visit, and it would take some period of time to recognize any savings.

I would hope Tivo can find better things to work on.


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## Tommy_D (Feb 24, 2006)

classicsat said:


> Record two premium digital channels and see what happens.


I was, past tense, able to record two HD digital programs at the same time-- but TIVO sent a message for me to go through Guided Setup again. Now for some reason I can only record one program. What's up with that? Obviously it's not that the SERIES 3 can't record two programs with one m-card... it's the software/Guided setup that blocks the capability.

I'm think I'll try resetting the TIVO and start over. I have only one Comcast M-card.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Tommy_D said:


> I was, past tense, able to record two HD digital programs at the same time-- but TIVO sent a message for me to go through Guided Setup again. Now for some reason I can only record one program. What's up with that? Obviously it's not that the SERIES 3 can't record two programs with one m-card... it's the software/Guided setup that blocks the capability.


Technically the S3 can record cable channels without any cards at all. The cards only provide channel mapping data and decryption capabilities. Since the channel mapping data is the same on both cards, really only one card is needed for channel mapping.

The problem is that on the S3 an M-Card can only associate itself with one tuner and therefore only decrypt channels tuned on that tuner. So if the S3 tunes to an encrypted channel on the tuner not associated with the m-card, that channel can't be decrypted so it will appear blank.

So yes, technically the S3's software is blocking dual-tuner capability with one m-card, but it is doing so to prevent the problem mentioned above.

In other words, just get Comcast to give you another card. If they won't have them call Tivo's CableCARD hotline so TiVo can explain it to them.


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## Lenonn (May 31, 2004)

sinanju said:


> While the numbers on M-Card support are small, they represent the folk who are willing to pay a pretty high premium for TiVo product right out of the chute. While there is an up-front expense for providing that support, there is some value in ensuring that crowd will be there, wallet in hand, for your next big release.
> 
> Some time in the future, folk may look at how the early adopters were handled -- no M-Card, long wait for TTG, etc, and decide to wait a year following the next product introduction, just to see how things shake out.
> 
> Its not a big deal for most, on its own, but it is added to the equation when considering the Series 4, whatever that will be.


Had I known that the Series 3 was likely never going to support M-cards, I would have just gone with the HD. I could have sworn only a month or two ago, I checked TiVo's website and it said they were either trying or investigating M-card support on the Series 3.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

Never buy a product based on promised future features.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> My only complaint with the S3 boxes are the cable card slot locations. The back is not a good place for the cablecard slot in a SetTopBox.


The back is a great place, IMO. You install them once and then leave them there, out of the way of prying hands.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ewilts said:


> The back is a great place, IMO. You install them once and then leave them there, out of the way of prying hands.


Agreed. The only time it's not a good place is when they are originally installed. And, even then, GET OVER IT!  There's no reason to fiddle with CableCARDS once they are installed and working properly.


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## ZildjianKX (Jun 11, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> As I explained in April, this is a risky development proposition. I will never say never, because there are very few absolutes (except death and taxes of course). But it's very, very unlikely.
> 
> From earlier this year:


Like others have said, this makes me never want to be a TiVo early adopter again. Everyone in the "small" percentage of people paying more for their second cable card is also the same group willing to pay the $800 premium on a new TiVo. I'm not sure if I'm going to be in the same group next time.

You have to understand that some of us feel triple screwed.

1. No M-Card support, so we pay a lot more each month from our cable company
2. Significantly cheaper hardware comes out, that does support M-cards
3. New TiVo subscribers who bought an S3 couldn't get a lifetime, which was later offered for the TiVo HD

The cheaper hardware was expected, the others weren't.

Regarding the CableCard issues, if you can't fix it, that's one thing. You could make it up to your series 3 base by offering a promo on the future series 4 or giving us a few free months, etc.

Right now as it stands, it doesn't look like TiVo cares about the eager early adopters who support the company.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Agreed. The only time it's not a good place is when they are originally installed. And, even then, GET OVER IT!  There's no reason to fiddle with CableCARDS once they are installed and working properly.


I think you mean if they are ever installed and working properly. If I only had to put them in once and never touch them again, the back would be fine. I would very much like to live in that fantasy world.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

pkscout said:


> I think you mean if they are ever installed and working properly. If I only had to put them in once and never touch them again, the back would be fine. I would very much like to live in that fantasy world.


I have two original Series 3s with two cable cards each and never had a problem, so some people do have successful installations.


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## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

I haven't touched mine since they were installed in both my Tivo's, 1 and 2 years ago, respectively.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

On one S3, I haven't touched them. On the other one, I've had one card go bad, so I tried popping it out and putting it back to fix it, but that did nothing -- rebooting did.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Agreed. The only time it's not a good place is when they are originally installed. And, even then, GET OVER IT!  There's no reason to fiddle with CableCARDS once they are installed and working properly.


I definitely prefer the front access, although it is most certainly not a show-stopper either way. As a partial quadruplegic, accessing the rear of components can be very difficult. Also, while it is not usually necessary to access the CableCards very often, your assertion is an overstatement. First of all, while I have had numerous CableCard installs, only one of them was straighforward, and all but that one required shuffling around multiple CableCards. Secondly, even once the install is complete, there are cases where accessing the CableCard is required. As William already stated, a failed CableCard is one reason. In my case, when the installer did my third CableCard install, I had to remove the cards from my first Tivo and install them into my second TiVo to prove to the installer that it was the cards, not the TiVo, that were bad. When despite several trips to get more coards he still could not come up with more than 1 good CableCard, I again shuffled the cards around so as to have 2 good cards in the new Tivo and one in the old. I have also had one occasion since then to re-seat one of the CableCards in one of my S3 TiVos, and a front access slot would have really been nice. All in all, I definitely prefer the front access slots.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

TiVoPony said:


> Likewise, features such as QAM remapping and M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers, both are in fact very small numbers of subscribers. That doesn't mean that they automatically get set aside, or that TiVo is ignoring or doesn't care about those customers. But it is a consideration when trading off those features against others (M-Card for S3 is technically possible, but also technically very complex. We've learned that there is a lot of risk inherent in that development).


I can understand if it isn't a high priority, but "M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers"?

How could that be? It literally affects EVERY cablecard Series 3 subscriber you have out there.

Comcast is charging me $6.99/mo for my second cablecard. That's $83.88 a year. I've seriously considered purchasing a refurb TiVo HD as it would pay for itself in two years.


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## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

Adam1115 said:


> Comcast is charging me $6.99/mo for my second cablecard. That's $83.88 a year. I've seriously considered purchasing a refurb TiVo HD as it would pay for itself in two years.


Are you sure that is for the cablecard? Perhaps they have incorrectly charged you for a 2nd digital outlet. My 2nd cablecard is costing me $1.99 on Comcast. Is your Tivo a 2nd digital device, i.e. in addition to a set top box or other cablecard in a TV?

Most people here have reported less than $2.00 for a cablecard. There is a Comcast webpage that addresses how Tivo, additional digital outlets, and cablecards should be billed.

http://www.comcast.com/customers/faq/FaqDetails.ashx?ID=2651&fss=cablecard

You may also want to read the official Comcast cablecard thread if you aren't already. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=316310


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## ZildjianKX (Jun 11, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> I can understand if it isn't a high priority, but "M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers"?
> 
> How could that be? It literally affects EVERY cablecard Series 3 subscriber you have out there.


Here here! Well said.


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

pkscout said:


> I, for one, will certainly keep this in mind next time I decide whether to support TiVo as an early adopter. The S3 has clear printing on the back that certainly could have left one with the impression that full M-card support was coming. Oh well. I guess I'll wait until the second generation of the Tru2Way TiVo comes out in 2012...


You know about a year ago I almost decided to get an S3 believing it was the better unit (cost more money too). The cost held me back as did it not being DBS capable and hoping for Lifetime. I hate monthly bills! 

Then I thought with Tivo HD prices coming down maybe I should get it if only for the dual tuner OTA. My pricepoint was $200 and I never seemed to find it right at $200 at that time.

Now I'm glad I waited and didn't go S3. OTOH right now I don't have the $200 anymore. LOL


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> I can understand if it isn't a high priority, but "M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers"?
> 
> How could that be? It literally affects EVERY cablecard Series 3 subscriber you have out there.
> 
> Comcast is charging me $6.99/mo for my second cablecard. That's $83.88 a year. I've seriously considered purchasing a refurb TiVo HD as it would pay for itself in two years.


You answered your own question, "every SERIES 3 subscriber", that might not be as large an overall number (ALL Models of Tivo) that you think. Personally I could not see paying the premium for a series 3 when it came out WAY too expensive IMO. I think that limited the original series 3 sales, but when THD came out it became a viable option. THDXL I also think is a bit overpriced for what you get as well ($450 -$500 is more reasonable) and they are both also "Series 3" and both have M-Card support, So you are wrong technically when you said EVERY Series 3 subscriber. I won't defend Tivo for their choice in priorities, but I also don't know what percentage of ALL tivo owners have a series 3. Personally I would think that they would want to keep those that paid a premium happy, but then again if it is only something like .005% it might not be worth it.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

It would be Only Series 3 subscribers, on systems which have M-cards available, and IMO, they than realize a notable savings by going to one card, compared to their entire subscription base.


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