# Viewing Not Permitted by the Tivo Digital Media Recorder, Try another Input.



## Free (Oct 17, 2002)

This is the message I get, when trying to view the following channels via the component output, while the HDMI ouput is connected to the S3.

DHD
TNTHD
UHD
INHD1
INHD2
MHD

The networks work fine with simultaneous output, but not the channels above, and I suspect that it would be the same for any of the pay channels such as HBO.

If I record a program on one of these channels, the same thing happens when I play it back. In order to view it over the component output, it is necessary to unplug the HDMI cable from the S3.

So.... no simultaneous output on the S3. Someone needs to amend the Tivo facts. :down:


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## nhey (Jul 4, 2004)

I get this error message when I switch to some analog channels (like YES). So it is not just a problem when viewing HD channels. The message does go away after a second or two and the picture appears.


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## Bodshal (Jan 4, 2005)

Free said:


> This is the message I get, when trying to view the following channels via the component output, while the HDMI ouput is connected to the S3.
> 
> DHD
> TNTHD
> ...


It does do simultaneous outputs, but the HDCP license requires analog outputs be shutdown if the content is protected. What I don't understand is why it allows it when HDMI is unplugged - does it downres the output for these channels/programs when HDMI isn't in use? (That would be the "allowed" thing to do, at a guess.) You may wish to investigate if the channels/programs in question are being flagged erroneously.

(My Motorola STB does the same thing.)

Chris.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

Free said:


> This is the message I get, when trying to view the following channels via the component output, while the HDMI ouput is connected to the S3.
> 
> DHD
> TNTHD
> ...


What kind of display is this? This sounds like your TV doesnt support HDCP and shuts down the outputs due to that. Unplugging the HDMI corrects the situation.


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## Free (Oct 17, 2002)

Nope, it is the component output that displays the message, and it only happens when the HDMI is plugged in, and working fine. There is no message on the HDMI display when this is happening.

To me, it does not look like the component output is being down rezzed when the HDMI is unplugged, since it looks as good as the HDMI output.

This is an issue for me, because I watch over HDMI in my Theater, and send the component output to the rest of my house.

Also, in this case (unlike nhey's problem) the picture and sound come up first, and then, after a second or two, they both go away, replaced by the message.


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## Free (Oct 17, 2002)

OK, I just tried changing the output resolution, from Native, to 1080i fixed, and then to 480p, and 480i.

It made no difference. The only way to output on component, certain channels, is to unplug the HDMI input.

So......the faq's need to be amended to read "Simultaneous output while viewing some channels".


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I know it's not an idea solution, but you should consider getting a remote control HDMI switch. That way when you're trying to watch in another room and you get this message you can simply switch to another HDMI source or empty input and break the TiVo's connection with the TV.

Dan


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## jes218 (Feb 10, 2005)

I have the opposite: Can't view HDMI.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=318368


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## Free (Oct 17, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I know it's not an idea solution, but you should consider getting a remote control HDMI switch. That way when you're trying to watch in another room and you get this message you can simply switch to another HDMI source or empty input and break the TiVo's connection with the TV.
> 
> Dan


Yeah Dan, I think that is what I am going to have to do. Unfortunately, it keeps me from watching a movie, in the Theater, and allowing others to watch the same thing in the rest of the house.

My other option, is to figure out how to distribute HDMI throughout the house, but that is a lot more difficult.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

If you want to distribute HDMI you're going to need some CAT-5 cable and a few baluns. I believe HDMI requires two runs of CAT-5 to each room.

Dan


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## Bodshal (Jan 4, 2005)

Or use an HDMI switch and a DVI->RGBHV/YPrPb convertor on the 2nd output. The moome unit I use is HDCP-friendly and has a link inside to output YPrPb instead of RGBHV.

Chris.


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## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

Free said:


> OK, I just tried changing the output resolution, from Native, to 1080i fixed, and then to 480p, and 480i.
> 
> It made no difference. The only way to output on component, certain channels, is to unplug the HDMI input.
> 
> So......the faq's need to be amended to read "Simultaneous output while viewing some channels".


This is actually a pretty common problem with HDMI devices (hence why I hate HDMI). From what I've understood over the years, HDMI specs are a huge pain in the butt to implement and few manufacturers get it right on the first try (that's what firmware upgrades are for).

To make matters worse, if this is, indeed, a bad HDMI implementation figuring out which device is causing the problem is very difficult.

The solution to tons of HDMI no-picture issues - on a multitude of devices from different companies - seems to be unplugging the cable and plugging it back in... pretty sad... HDMI sucks.


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## Agent86 (Jan 18, 2002)

Just wanted to mention that I just experienced this problem, and this thread was very helpful. Bump!

In my case all I had to do was flip the TV to its tuner, power off the TV, turn it back on, and then flip to the TiVo input. That reenabled HDCP and the problem went away. Weird, but glad it was as simple as a "TV reboot".


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## Free (Oct 17, 2002)

I think some of you are mis-understanding the problem. This is NOT a problem with the HDMI output, it is a problem with the COMPONENT output. The HDMI ouput works fine, and never drops out. If that is happening, it IS an HDCP issue with your display not communicating properly.

My issue is, when the HDMI output is working properly, the component output will be restricted for some channels, making it impossible to have simultaneous output while viewing those channels.


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

Free said:


> I think some of you are mis-understanding the problem. This is NOT a problem with the HDMI output, it is a problem with the COMPONENT output. The HDMI ouput works fine, and never drops out. If that is happening, it IS an HDCP issue with your display not communicating properly.
> 
> My issue is, when the HDMI output is working properly, the component output will be restricted for some channels, making it impossible to have simultaneous output while viewing those channels.


What does system information say about hdmi when you're seeing this problem? It needs to say "hdcp enabled" or something like that.

Are you saying that you can see video on the HDMI TV, and at the exact same time the component output is showing an error?


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## Free (Oct 17, 2002)

Roderigo said:



> Are you saying that you can see video on the HDMI TV, and at the exact same time the component output is showing an error?


That is exactly what I am saying.


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## Skeuomorph (Sep 26, 2006)

The High Def Copy Protection spec is weird and buggy from most manufacturers. By fooling with it, I've been able to reproduce this type of issue with my setup.

Basically, this happens when HDMI is connected, and thinks HDCP is supported, but also thinks a downstream component does not honor the HDCP rules.

I use a DVDO iScan VP30 video switcher, which has software that can act as an HDCP middleman or forward HDCP messages between the player and the TV. I'm able to pick a combination of HDCP On at one end and HDCP Off at the other that causes the TiVo to act in the way described in the original post in this thread.

When I don't have component video hooked up, the error message is shown on the HDMI output, and the channel is greyed out. When I do have it hooked up, in some situations I get what the original message describes, an error on component but video on the HDMI port.

With hundreds of HDMI/HDCP firmware implementations in the marketplace, I expect it will be a few months before we see TiVo Series 3 work with more than the most compliant versions. It took several months before Sony Vaio XL1 Media Center's HDMI audio was reliable, and I still can't get TiVo's Dolby Digital audio to stay reliable over HDMI (though it is reliable over the optical cable).

While waiting for firmware updates to the players, an HDMI scaler with alternate inputs, outputs, and managed HDCP options may be your best bet, especially one from a vendor with a track record of frequent updates to resolve these types of issues. This has allowed me to enjoy the most from the expensive "cutting edge" high def components needlessly complicated by Hollywood's confusion about which consumers are trying to rip them off.


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## Steve Richards (May 6, 2004)

Have you tried the S-Video connection in this situation ? Since it is always down rezzed it should be a permitted mode even when the HDCP is active.

Everyone seems to be blaming HDMI but isn't it the HDCP portion of the implementation that is causing the issue for most devices ?

The S3 should probably be downrezzing the component output rather than blocking, but the graphic card probably can't support that and still keep the HDMI at the resolution you set. In theory if you set the resolution to 480, the S3 should output to both Component and HDMI but the software probably isn't sophisticated enough to do that yet as your test proved.



Steve


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## Free (Oct 17, 2002)

I have tried changing the resolution to 480i and P, but the problem still exists. The message also appears on the composite or S-vid outputs.

By the way, I am also using DVDO. It was happening with the VP30, and now I have the VP50, and it is still happening. I will check the HDCP setting to see if there is any way to trick the S3 into working properly.


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## wdave (Jul 16, 2000)

I just had this happen to me.

My setup: HDMI out goes to my TV, S-Video out goes to my Slingbox.

I had my TV on but tuned to another input (kids watching a DVD). I was trying to watch my S3 through my Slingbox. Every channel I tried gave me the "Viewing not permitted" error. I rebooted the S3 and it still didn't work. It wasn't until I switched the TV back to the S3 input that it all started working again.

Is this expected behavior?


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

Same problem here. It essentially makes my slingbox useless if I use HDMI to connect the S3 to the TV.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Fracking DRM... best to just use component output and be done with it.


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## wdave (Jul 16, 2000)

It seems to work with the TV off, just not when the TV is on and set to a different input.


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## squiddohio (Dec 21, 2001)

I noticed this problem a week or so ago.

I use the HDMI to send the signal to my plasma (Fujitsu, with no tuner of its own). I also use AVCast to send the composite signal to other sets in the house, and have been doing this with my S1 Tivos for several years.

With the S3, I noticed that I can play back a recorded network show, even one recorded in HD, without any problem. However, if I try to play back something recorded from HBO or Showtime, I get the message noted by the OP. 

I am using my component inputs for another device, so this post has at least informed me that I can solve this problem by rearranging things to use the component cables instead of the HDMI. 

So far, however, it has not been an big problem, but I would like to have the ability to view recorded "premium" programs in the bedroom or the kitchen.

The whole thing makes no sense to me, as any copy I make from the composite output is not going to be an HD or even a digital copy. I do not understand what problem is being solved by this "regulation."


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## wdave (Jul 16, 2000)

Strictly speaking, I'm guessing they only need to send that message to the HDMI port. So what would the fix be?


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## tinkererguy (May 14, 2002)

moyekj said:


> Fracking DRM... best to just use component output and be done with it.


I have found an alternative, one that lets me use HDMI with my 2 TiVo Series 3 units when watching my 55" TV, or use my composite output for remote room and Slingbox viewing. This works for premium channels, including HBO HD (on Cox).

On my Sony KDS-55A2000, when powered off, I noticed I'd get the
"Viewing is not permitted using the TiVo Digital Media Recorder...Try another TV input"
message. As soon as I turned the TV back on, message went away. Turn TV off, about 2-3 minutes later, error again. That got me thinking...

I was hoping the HDCP function available in some HDMI switch boxes would help. I tried the ~$140 Monoprice unit
Monoprice IR controlled 1x5 HDMI switch 
and was disappointed to see the message still there when the TV was off. But based on some comments in this forum, I realized I needed to try killing the power to the switch box. I guessed that this might effectively unplug the HDMI cable from the TV set, when in a remote room, or using my Slingbox. And simple, repeating testing demonstrates that powering it off works, without physically moving/unplugging any cables. Phew.

So the next gotcha was to finding an easy way to unplug the HDMI switch when not watching my TiVo Series 3 on the KDS-55A2000 TV. Easiest way for others would likely be to plug into an amplifier's switched outlet, if the amp is turned off with TV. In my case, I have a UPS for the TV (partly to let bulb cooldown cycle of 1-2 minutes finish during power outages). So I installed an autoswitching Radio Shack power strip. It is plugged that into the UPS, and the TV (and amp) is plugged into the control outlet on the strip: it senses power draw, and switches the power on its other outlets, based on the TV's power status. Radio Shack no longer sells this device, but it works great for me.

I hope this tip helps somebody else leave their gorgeous HDMI-connected TiVo Series 3s attached full time. FYI, I use the HDMI switch and some macros in my simple, family-friendly Sony RM-VL900, to allow easy autoswitching of my sources. And I found it even offers direct input switching of my TV's inputs 1-6 (TV-Video button + # corresponding button), for simple switching among TiVos and other video sources. I should also add that I added IR-controlled component video/toslink switching via this device:
Markertek CSM42 4x2 Component Video Switch


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Nice tinkering 

And the monoprice comment confirms what I thought the switch did ... it tricks devices (S3 etc) into thinking they're always connected to a display, speeding up renegotiation when the TV is powered on, and masking problems some people have with the TiVo turning on and failing HDMI nego. when the S3 (or ANY HDMI device) is connected, due to flawed negotiation implementation on the TV.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Personally I prefer the picture quality of S3 component over HDMI anyway. The HDMI connection looks too washed out to me with not enough contrast and the colors are not as vibrant. I could re-calibrate TV for HDMI input but it's not convenient for me to use anyway as my amp only supports component video switching anyway.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

moyekj said:


> Personally I prefer the picture quality of S3 component over HDMI anyway. The HDMI connection looks too washed out to me with not enough contrast and the colors are not as vibrant. I could re-calibrate TV for HDMI input but it's not convenient for me to use anyway as my amp only supports component video switching anyway.


Don't blame on a pure-digital format from a known-good-at-HDMI device (S3) for aa flawed TV, remote control laziness or calibration laziness 

Consider the Logitech Harmony series of remotes and a cheap, basic HDMI switch (if you have even one more HDMI source than the # of inputs on the TV). The harmony is ABOUT as difficult to live without as my TiVos ... and before buying it, I would NOT have said this!


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

ashu said:


> Don't blame on a pure-digital format from a known-good-at-HDMI device (S3) for aa flawed TV, remote control laziness or calibration laziness
> 
> Consider the Logitech Harmony series of remotes and a cheap, basic HDMI switch (if you have even one more HDMI source than the # of inputs on the TV). The harmony is ABOUT as difficult to live without as my TiVos ... and before buying it, I would NOT have said this!


 I have an MX-500 that works really well for controlling everything and has everything on hard buttons and no tricks to remember what goes where as I can program the LCD hard buttons with whatever labels I want for cases when pre-labeled buttons are not available. And I've got discrete on/off codes for all devices that need them programmed in which makes for some real good macros and 100% WAF. Honey, you want to watch a DVD, press the button labeled DVD and everything will turn on for you. Want to watch the Tivo press the Tivo button, want to watch the ReplayTV press the Replay button, etc. When you're done just press the Off button and everything will turn off.

For my TV the reality is component is the better choice but that certainly is not the case for everyone. One other big reason I just remembered I didn't like HDMI is my TV does not overscan on HDMI so sometimes that means noise on the top of the screen, especially for 4:3 content on HD channels. I've seen several reports of this problem and I wish there was an actual spec for this when buying a TV. It's certainly something I will look for and ask about at AVS forums before my next purchase.


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## tinkererguy (May 14, 2002)

Thanks for the remote tips, which really should be a separate thread.

I already own 5 of the 4 year old Sony RM-VL900 remotes, affordable (<$40) and working nicely for variety of brands of TVs around the house. So acceptance of a new >$100 device would be a big hurtle, given the cost alone, and these models suggested weren't available 4 years ago when we went TiVo.

Perhaps someday, but right now, everybody is content with the remotes we have. Particularly strange that such a cheap remote have direct video input switching for Sony, something that the remote that comes with the TV doesn't have. Pressing TV/Video up to 9 times won't do).

Thanks again to this forum for helping out!


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

I'm just about to come into this problem perhaps. I want to drive my Family Room HDTV with component and my Basement HDTV with HDMI. It appears from these threads that if you have the HDMI cable connected to the TV then the Component is disabled. True?

If true, what about if you use an HDMI switching Amp? When the Amp is switched away from the S3 does it look to the S3 like the TV is disconnected? God I hope so.

The other workaround was to use the Monoprice HDMI switch through the Amps powered outlet to fake the S3 into thinking it wasn't connected to the TV. Seems like overkill usage of a 3x1 HDMI switch to just fake out the HDCP protocol but I've seen crazier!


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

ah30k said:


> I'm just about to come into this problem perhaps. I want to drive my Family Room HDTV with component and my Basement HDTV with HDMI. It appears from these threads that if you have the HDMI cable connected to the TV then the Component is disabled. True?


Unfortunately, the answer is "it depends."

1) Some TVs work just fine. My Sony TV has no problems - when it's powered off the S3 shows and HDMI Status of not connected.

2) It depends on the cable company. The cablecard spec only requires HDCP for copy protected channels. If you're watching a recording that wasn't copy protected, the S3 will happily show it on all outputs. If there's a copy protected recording, then the S3 can only show it when HDCP is properly negotiated.


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## squiddohio (Dec 21, 2001)

On my setup (with a Fujitsu Plasma), if the HDMI cable is used, I cannot watch shows (HiDef or not) recorded from HBO or other "pay" channels through the S-Vid or composite outputs (I think this is also true for component). I can view shows recorded from the network stations, HiDef or not.

When I unplug the HDMI cable from the S3 and use component to the plasma, then all recorded shows can be viewed at all times from all other outputs.

I use the composite output to send the signal to 3 or 4 other sets in the house, so this limits the shows I can view on them somewhat. I am, however, going back to the HDMI over the weekend because I find that this is not so much of a limitation, although it pisses me off because it makes no sense (because the S-Vid output is available at the same crappy low res just by unplugging the HDMI cable, so what digital media am I being prevented from stealing?). There are conveniences to my setup to use the HDMI with my new receiver, and these outweigh the very rare situation where I would want to watch an HBO program in the kitchen or bedroom.

At any rate, if "handshaking" does not go well, then you can get lots of legit output cut off. Whose idea was this stuff?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Is copy protection the same as the CCI flags (ie copy once, copy never etc)? All of my digital channels are CCI=Copy Once.


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## tinkererguy (May 14, 2002)

squiddohio said:


> On my setup (with a Fujitsu Plasma), if the HDMI cable is used, I cannot watch shows (HiDef or not) recorded from HBO or other "pay" channels through the S-Vid or composite outputs (I think this is also true for component). I can view shows recorded from the network stations, HiDef or not.
> 
> When I unplug the HDMI cable from the S3 and use component to the plasma, then all recorded shows can be viewed at all times from all other outputs.
> 
> ...


What about plugging an HDMI switch into your amp (if it has an accessory outlet)? This way, your HDMI cable is effectively unplugged when you're not in your main viewing room, allowing unfettered viewing in other rooms (via component or composite). See my complete post back here (same thread):
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4574665#post4574665

Also, since then, this nice new 4 port HDMI switch has been announced, for $99
http://www.xtrememac.com/audio/av_cables/hdmi_switcher/
sure looks prettier than the monoprice unit I have (but mine is hidden anyhow), and would likely work similarly I would think. Although I think the monoprice unit can support longer HDMI cable lengths, I'm not sure...

For full pix of my setup, see:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9458234&&#post9458234


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

ah30k said:


> Is copy protection the same as the CCI flags (ie copy once, copy never etc)? All of my digital channels are CCI=Copy Once.


Yes - the CCI (Copy Control Information) flag is the way the cablecard specifies copy protection. Any non-zero CCI requires a cablecard host to block the HDMI output if there's no HDCP.


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

Roderigo said:


> Yes - the CCI (Copy Control Information) flag is the way the cablecard specifies copy protection. Any non-zero CCI requires a cablecard host to block the HDMI output if there's no HDCP.


OK, I was having this issue, but only with HDMI, I don't have any other output coming from the Tivo. Could this be a copywright issue and if so, where do I see these non-zero values?


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

IzzyB68 said:


> OK, I was having this issue, but only with HDMI, I don't have any other output coming from the Tivo. Could this be a copywright issue and if so, where do I see these non-zero values?


The HDMI status is in System Information.

The CCI value is on one of the cablecard screens.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

But we are talking about blocking the analog component, not the digital HDMI, aren't we.


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

OK, I am getting this error and I have the Cable company on the phone. When I go into the SYstem information I get HDMI not Enabled and when I go into CCI INfo I have 0x03, is this incorrect? Is the cable compnay in the wrong, because they say that they do not have the copy protected flags on at all. We have red/white/s-Video hooked up, but only because we can't get the HDMI working.


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

ah30k said:


> But we are talking about blocking the analog component, not the digital HDMI, aren't we.


I get the error on all Digital and HD channels


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

IzzyB68 said:


> I get the error on all Digital and HD channels


I understand, my comment was not the channels (analog vs digital) but the output path (component=analog vs HDMI=digital)


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

ah30k said:


> I understand, my comment was not the channels (analog vs digital) but the output path (component=analog vs HDMI=digital)


Got it, I am using HDMI only.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

What a pain in the ass. I got my 75 ft HDMI cable (with built-in equalizer) and kooked it up to my basement TV from my Family Room entertainment center and S3. Simply plugging the cable into the S3 (nothing on the other end at all) was enough to shut down the component outputs! What a crock! The equalization components in the cable must be enough to f&^k up the S3. I am really at a loss now. Man my wife is going to be pissed at the money I'm pissing away on this.

No HDMI Cable plugged into the S3 = Component Works
Cable Only pluuged into the S3 = Component Shut Down
Cable plugged from S3 into the TV but TV not on that input = Component Shut Down
Cable plugged from S3 into the TV while TV set to that input (ie watching it) = Component Works.
Cable plugged from S3 into Yamaha amp but Amp not routed to TV = Component Shut Down
Cable plugged from S3 into Yamaha amp with Amp routed to TV = ??? can't test yet.

God I hate this thing.

edit - found out my problem was a bad cable!


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Has anyone from TiVo (ie Pony or Jerry) mentioned if shutting down the component is by design or a bug? I was on the TiVo.com site and all I could find was another thread like this with people complaining. I never thought that simply plugging in an unconnected cable into the S3 HDMI port would shut down all of the other ports.

I gotta say, I have been a real TiVo fan for a long time, but I fear I have made a terrible mistake going with the S3. I share content by connecting it to two TVs via its two outputs and I can't even buy two S3s and share content.

Comcast is now rolling out SDV like their bonus depends on it.



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Here Jerry says they will all be active...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4361758&&#post4361758

Wrong!


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Before totally throwing in the towel, I tried an HDMI switch that my local BestBuy stocked. It was a Psyclone 4x1 HDMI & Optical Switcher. 

*With just the 3 ft cable installed the S3 component was shut down (this shows it was not the equalizer in my long cable)

* With the cable plugged from the S3 into the Psyclone and the Psyclone unplugged off the component was shutdown still (this is opposite the behaviour of a post earlier using another brand switch).

*With the cable plugged from the S3 into the Psyclone and the Psyclone plugged in but turned off, COMPONENT WORKED!

Yeh! Expensive solution.... $180 at BestBuy, but the switch looks nice and has a remote control so I can leave it upstairs and use the remote downstairs through my IR blaster. Now I just need to decide whether to keep the $80 75ft HDMI cable, the $180 switch and the $40 wireless IR blaster to push HD content from my Family Room S3 down to the basement.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Consider getting the 5x1 monoPrce HDMI switch instead - under $100 now!

<edit> for reason!
Mine seems to keep all its incoming HDMI sources semi-connected/negotiated, and switches relatively quickly. This may (or may not) alleviate your "viewing not permitted ..." issue.


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