# Lost 3/18/09 Namaste



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Did anyone else notice that there was someone else in the room with Shepard and Sun (and Frank)?


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Did anyone else notice that there was someone else in the room with Shepard and Sun (and Frank)?


Kind of looked like the smoke monster "slithered" in too.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

pcguru83 said:


> Kind of looked like the smoke monster "slithered" in too.


I suspect that it's what's her name with the Aaron and the baby.


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## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

Whoever the young actor playing Ben is, he's got the dangerous look down well.

And what the heck did Christian mean when he told Sun she had a long trip ahead of her???


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

PKurmas said:


> Whoever the young actor playing Ben is, he's got the dangerous look down well.
> 
> And what the heck did Christian mean when he told Sun she had a long trip ahead of her???


Well.

They're in 1977. She's not.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I can't wait to see where this goes. 

So Farradey is not there anymore, wonder what that means, where did he go?


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

I totally knew, a few weeks ago, that Frank would at least try to land the plane using that runway. [colbert] I called it! [\colbert]

Why didn't Sun flash? Was she not suppose to go back, but yet she has a long journey to take, why not just flash if she was suppose to be there.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> I can't wait to see where this goes.
> 
> So Farradey is not there anymore, wonder what that means, where did he go?


Well earlier this season we saw him working for the Project. I think he ran off to the other side.


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## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> Well.
> 
> They're in 1977. She's not.


I got that. I also got the implication that she could get back then.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

When are Bernard and Rose?


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## Sacrilegium (Dec 14, 2006)

Cindy1230 said:


> Why didn't Sun flash?


Because I'm never that lucky...


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

I laughed at Sawyer messing with Jack, Workman - and Juliet messing with Kate's last minute update. So mean... so funny.

Seeing the lights down on the dock, and the weird smoke monster or whatever in the trees was great. Gave me chills when they wandered closer to the Processing building and the voices and shadows... Love this show!



vertigo235 said:


> I can't wait to see where this goes.
> 
> So Farradey is not there anymore, wonder what that means, where did he go?


The way they talked made me think he'd gone crazy, in their eyes...

That kid's eyes were perfect!! Crazy show!


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

And the baby's name is ETHAN!!!!

Good episode, and it was interesting to see Sawyer and Jack in the roles they are now in. It didn't look like the Sawyer/Kate thing was over yet. I mean he put her in a house right next to him!


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

betts4 said:


> And the baby's name is ETHAN!!!!


Good job on whomever called that. I didn't think it would be him, because I thought he seemed older than 27 (1977-2004). The actor was born in 1965.

But they did that with actress that plays Sun. Sun was born in 1980 and the actress was born 1973. Sorry for the random facts.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Wonder what year it is where Sun is.
I'm guessing it's post Ben's Massacre.

And I can't believe this is possibly my first Lost thread posting.


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## Unseen Llama (Nov 29, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> I can't wait to see where this goes.
> 
> So Farradey is not there anymore, wonder what that means, where did he go?


Maybe he meant mentally...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dang, this show is just SO FRIKKIN' GOOD!

And it keeps getting better!


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

This show is fantastic. At every commercial break, I thought it was the cliffhanger for the end of the show. Some great one liners: Sun saying "I lied", Hurley saying "I guess we don't have to look for Sayid..."

I had a quick flash: could present day Christian actually be an older Jack?


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

SoBelle0 said:


> Seeing the lights down on the dock, and the weird smoke monster or whatever in the trees was great. Gave me chills when they wandered closer to the Processing building and the voices and shadows... Love this show!


What I thought was great was Sun's response to "seeing" the smoke monster. She responded, "It's probably just some animal," which is the exact same response that someone said (Charlie maybe?) when we "saw"/heard the smoke monster in the very first episode or two. Nice touch.


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## El Gabito (Mar 11, 2004)

Gunnyman said:


> Wonder what year it is where Sun is.
> I'm guessing it's post Ben's Massacre.
> 
> And I can't believe this is possibly my first Lost thread posting.


I think they are present time - 3 years after they left the island.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Dang, this show is just SO FRIKKIN' GOOD!
> 
> And it keeps getting better!


How many shows can you say that about five years in?

Another fantastic episode. So, now we know what the runway was for. Knowing this raises another question(s): How the heck did Ben (or the Others) know that an Ajira jet would have to land in that area safely three years later? Did Ben do this in order to keep HIMSELF safe when the plane landed?

And I LOVED the exchange between Jack and Sawyer. I think Jack is genuinely relieved he doesn't need to do any leading anymore. He's probably tired of it.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> I can't wait to see where this goes.
> 
> So Farradey is not there anymore, wonder what that means, where did he go?


The other island.. that's where his notes are. but then again he's down in the Orchid when they're drilling.. I wonder when tonight is relative to the Orchid being built? We know we're before the Swan is built (which is station #3). The orientation film for station #2, The Arrow, was being filmed right before we saw Faraday there, but that doesn't tell us much - we still don't know which came first, the Namaste picture from 1977, or Faraday going into the Orchid. (Jeff goes off and watches clips from old episodes). Ah, The Orchid is station #6. If we can assume they were building them in order, now (the Namaste picture from 1977) is before Faraday goes into the Orchid mine shaft.



Turtleboy said:


> Did anyone else notice that there was someone else in the room with Shepard and Sun (and Frank)?


Totally missed that, and the door opening, and the feint image of smoke.



Cindy1230 said:


> I totally knew, a few weeks ago, that Frank would at least try to land the plane using that runway. [colbert] I called it! [\colbert]


Ditto. And tonight, when Frank said he had to pull up, I said out loud to my wife "watch them say 'is that a runway?'", which they then said verbatim.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Dang, this show is just SO FRIKKIN' GOOD!
> 
> And it keeps getting better!


AGREED!!!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

tewcewl said:


> And I LOVED the exchange between Jack and Sawyer. I think Jack is genuinely relieved he doesn't need to do any leading anymore. He's probably tired of it.


...as are we, the audience. When Sawyer drove up in the van to give them clothes and was all hurried and worrying, I saw Jack and Kate barely caring, and I worried that their not caring enough was going to f*** things up, since they didn't have much invested right now (unlike Sawyer). If people started listening to Jack at this point I'd be upset. Sawyer calling Jack out on not thinking (and just reacting) was _priceless_. Almost cheered out loud.

I did want Sawyer to tell Juliette "by the way, honey, don't worry, you and me are good.. Kate's old news" when they were sitting on the bed together.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

One comment not really related to tonight, but I went back to the earliest episode I had on my HD tivo, which was the "Destiny Calls" recap before the season started.. They showed Ben in school, and the teacher's name is Olivia.. That's gotta be Olivia Goodspeed, right? Too lazy to get up and find the earlier seasons' DVDs right now so I could see if it's the same actress from the episode when Ben was born (wasn't that actually in the same episode?).

Ok, back to tonight. (by the way, if I didn't say it explicitly yet, I LOVED THIS EPISODE!)


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## Frash (Jan 15, 2005)

I watched the scene with Sun and Christian again and couldn't see anyone else in the room. Which portion of the scene are you referring to?

When Juliette mentioned the inbound submarine, I took it that now that Locke had succeeded, she was ready to leave the island. Did anyone else initially take it that way?

Great creepy kid playing "young ben".


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Frash said:


> When Juliette mentioned the inbound submarine, I took it that now that Locke had succeeded, she was ready to leave the island. Did anyone else initially take it that way?


Yep. She wants out. Especially since she knows Kate is back to screw up her relationship with Sawyer.

So, who sent young Ben in to give Sayid a sandwich? Sawyer has to know that kid is Ben, right?

So, when do we get the giant argument between Jack and Kate where Kate asks Jack WTF they're doing there and why the hell he dragged her back.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

aindik said:


> So, when do we get the giant argument between Jack and Kate where Kate asks Jack WTF they're doing there and why the hell he dragged her back.


He didn't drag her back. She said no, left, something happened with Aaron, and she came back to him and said, OK, let's go.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Ok, you guys are slacking, that or I'm about to smeek because I didn't see anyone else comment on it yet.

No props to Hurley for the best line of the show?

"Uh...What?"

LOL, man I love that guy.


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## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

So that was Ben as a kid.. I thought it was Harry Potter.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anyone catch who the guest star was on The Muppet Show?


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Anyone catch who the guest star was on The Muppet Show?




Was that just an easter egg, or are we supposed to take from that that Dharma could watch American TV from the Island? (It's not like they were using a VCR to watch it in 1977).


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

The copilot looked a bit familiar but I'm not sure where from.

We know for a fact that 316 (including the plane, Frank, Ben, Sun, Caesar, etc) jumped through time too, at least a little.. it went from night to day. Whether they just went forward/back a few days or a year is a good question.

They said "30 years earlier" before jumping to 1977, so they're saying the plane crashed in 2007.. Didn't the O6 leave for 316 in 2008? So they've basically jumped to sometime after the freighter incident but before their attempt to come back to the island..

Great exchange:

Sawyer: You're really here! 'son of a ***** actually did it! Locke said he was gonna bring you back! Where is he?

Jack: John's dead.

Sawyer: Dead? How?

Jack: Well, he risked everything to save us all, but see, we didn't believe him, and every one of us turned him down (even though we were having a miserable time off of the island). So then he killed himself. He hung himself, and left me a suicide note that said "Jack, I wish you had believed me. - John".

Sawyer: You F$%#ing ******BAG!!!

(Sawyer proceeds to beat the crap out of Jack for 20 minutes)

I loved that scene.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Great exchange:
> 
> Sawyer: You're really here! 'son of a ***** actually did it! Locke said he was gonna bring you back! Where is he?
> 
> ...


:up:

That really does annoy me with this show.

Dead? How?
It doesn't matter.

Um, yes it does you lousy SOB. So, um, tell me or you camp in the jungle for six months.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Juliette looked really hot the entire show. She's always been hot, but this episode she was smokin' hot.

Or I'm just lonely.

*shrug*


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Juliette looked really hot the entire show. She's always been hot, but this episode she was smokin' hot.
> 
> Or I'm just lonely.
> 
> *shrug*


You could be both. Oh, and how many people think Sayid will try and kill Ben soon? And when Ben finds out Sayid isn't a hostile, that's what pushes him to go to the others.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

I'm seeing a LOT of 3s floating around lately. I wonder if they will eventually end up changing the 4 in "The Numbers" to 3, thereby accomplishing the mission of The Dharma Initiative.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Dharmaville.

Did we ever know patchy's name?

Last week when Sawyer called Miles something other than Miles. was it a nickname I missed? For some reason I thought it'd been a different name, but Juliette called him Miles (and who knows who else might have been near them.. it's easier to just keep using an alias even in private).

At 13 minutes in, when Sawyer told Juliette that they were back, is that a painting of an erupting volcano to the right of him? Or is it just a bonfire, or something else?

Totally cool that we see that the whole reason the Swan is underground is that it's supposed to be hidden.. As soon as he sees Sayid and thinks he's a spy, he's very worried. Was it underground and hidden because it was in "hostile" territory, and building over there would be a violation of the truce?

Radzinsky!!! That's Inman's partner!!! He shoots himself with a shotgun in the Swan that he's designing!!!


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Fleegle said:


> I'm seeing a LOT of 3s floating around lately. I wonder if they will eventually end up changing the 4 in "The Numbers" to 3, thereby accomplishing the mission of The Dharma Initiative.


Remember we still don't know what the mission of the D.I. is ON the show. Given that the numbers were "explained" off screen by the Lost ARG, it doesn't mean that they won't explain it on the show, thereby conferring it canonical status.

I think we still don't know what the ultimate purpose of the D.I. is and it's way too important to let it be explained offscreen.


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

I thought you couldn't have babies on the island. Why is this not an issue in the past?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Hey wait a sec..

Ethan is the name of the kid.. Great.. that's Ethan. But we see Ethan with the others! Ethan is gonna betray his mother Amy and live through her being gassed to death (unless she joins the others too, which I'd say there's a 0% chance of since they killed Paul, unless Paul is still alive and is the one to recruit her). Ethan follows in his dad's footsteps, if that ankh was any indication..


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Radzinsky!!! That's Inman's partner!!! He shoots himself with a shotgun in the Swan that he's designing!!!


And now we know that both Radzinsky and Inman knew Sayid.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

whitson77 said:


> I thought you couldn't have babies on the island. Why is this not an issue in the past?


That's something the show has yet to answer. We think that there is a major incident (referred on the show as The Incident) that prevents babies from being born. So, pre-1977, this isn't a problem.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> Remember we still don't know what the mission of the D.I. is ON the show. Given that the numbers were "explained" off screen by the Lost ARG, it doesn't mean that they won't explain it on the show, thereby conferring it canonical status.
> 
> I think we still don't know what the ultimate purpose of the D.I. is and it's way too important to let it be explained offscreen.


I'm pretty sure that Damon and Carlton have said that's the official goal of Dharma.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Small point, but back when Juliette came to the island in her flashback episode, we all wondered why she had to be drugged for the trip. I wonder if the writers anticipated this part then (this sure is a big plot point - that had to be on their roadmap), and wrote the whole 'you gotta be drugged' thing just so they could introduce Jack/Kate/Hurley now?


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Dharmaville.
> 
> Did we ever know patchy's name?


Mikhail Bakunin.



jkeegan said:


> Last week when Sawyer called Miles something other than Miles. was it a nickname I missed? For some reason I thought it'd been a different name, but Juliette called him Miles (and who knows who else might have been near


Pretty sure he called him Enos (as in Sheriff Roscoe P. Coltrane's deputy on Dukes of Hazzard.)


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> They said "30 years earlier" before jumping to 1977, so they're saying the plane crashed in 2007.. Didn't the O6 leave for 316 in 2008? So they've basically jumped to sometime after the freighter incident but before their attempt to come back to the island.


No. IIRC, It was 2007 when they left on Flight 316.

Oceanic Airline 815 crashed in 2004. The O6 got off the island that same year and three years elapsed. It was 2007 when everything we saw with the O6 transpired.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> No. IIRC, It was 2007 when they left on Flight 316.
> 
> Oceanic Airline 815 crashed in 2004. The O6 got off the island that same year and three years elapsed. It was 2007 when everything we saw with the O6 transpired.


The flight crashed on 9/22/04. 1/1/05 would have been day 101 on the island. I think they were there slightly longer than that.

The scene with Desmond and Sayid on the freighter took place on Christmas Eve.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Damned cool, by the way, that much like Sayid had Henry Gale (Ben) in custody and Ben was a complete mystery (and full of lies), so does Ben now have Sayid in custody, he's a complete mystery, and he's full of lies.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Also, can someone help me out here. Lostpedia has Dr. Chang as his full name Dr. Pierre Chang. How did we know his actual name before this episode? I'm trying to remember here.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

aindik said:


> And now we know that both Radzinsky and Inman knew Sayid.


Inman? Did I miss something - have we seen a young Inman?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

So, now that we see Hurley is carrying a guitar case, he's the closest thing to a musician we've seen back here, right? Does he eventually create the security code in the Looking Glass for Charlie to figure out later?


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Inman? Did I miss something - have we seen a young Inman?


Inman knew Sayid during the Gulf War. Made him torture people and told him it would be useful later.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> Inman? Did I miss something - have we seen a young Inman?


Yes. He manipulated Sayid into torturing Iraqi prisoners during the first gulf war. See episode S2E14 "One of Them."

Dang, too slow.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ahaa!!!! Finally a payoff from Locke's mousetrap game!

Remember when Locke was showing Mouse Trap to a kid in Toys 'R Us? He described the game - that you build the entire contraption and then you put it into play, and then at the end the cage falls down. I'd thought at the time that the cage looked very much like a geodesic dome, and that Locke making all of this effort to get into the hatch ultimately got himself caught in there entering the code.

Well this is even better. Radzinski BUILDS the Swan, and ends up trapped inside it, to the point where he eventually kills himself.


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## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

tewcewl said:


> Given that the numbers were "explained" off screen by the Lost ARG


Can anyone elucidate on this for those of us who only watch the show and don't follow the other blogs, web sites, interviews, podcasts, etc. How were the number "explained"?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

aindik said:


> Inman knew Sayid during the Gulf War. Made him torture people and told him it would be useful later.





tewcewl said:


> Yes. He manipulated Sayid into torturing Iraqi prisoners during the first gulf war. See episode S2E14 "One of Them."
> 
> Dang, too slow.


DOH! It must be late - can't believe I didn't remember that.. (well, I DO remember it, it just didn't come to mind when you said he knew him.. I thought someone was saying that we saw a younger Inman here on the island or something, with some passing name reference).


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## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> Damned cool, by the way, that much like Sayid had Henry Gale (Ben) in custody and Ben was a complete mystery (and full of lies), so does Ben now have Sayid in custody, he's a complete mystery, and he's full of lies.


Wow...think about this! That means that Ben would have already known Sayid, Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sawyer, etc from when he was a child. No wonder he always seemed omniscient! It puts a whole new twist on all the ways he's manipulated these people along the way. And it makes me want to watch all his early interactions with the Oceanic survivors again.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

lpamelaa said:


> Can anyone elucidate on this for those of us who only watch the show and don't follow the other blogs, web sites, interviews, podcasts, etc. How were the number "explained"?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lost+numbers+explanation


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> I did want Sawyer to tell Juliette "by the way, honey, don't worry, you and me are good.. Kate's old news" when they were sitting on the bed together.


What, did you want Juliette to kill him on the spot? If he had said that, it would have meant the exact opposite.

Awesome episode. I like the ending with Ben, I was wondering when he'd show up in -77.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lost+numbers+explanation


Actually, forget that, the links at the top of that search sucked. I just spent my time doing the search for you.


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## Eight47 (Feb 22, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> The copilot looked a bit familiar but I'm not sure where from.


The actor is Dan Gauthier.



betts4 said:


> And the baby's name is ETHAN!!!!


Last Sunday the Lost rerun was "Adrift", when Juliet's backstory is told. At the end when she is crying over her ex being hit by a bus Ethan is there. Her first words to him, with a puzzled face were "Have we met?".

Does that mean at that time she "recognized" him?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

aindik said:


> Yep. She wants out. Especially since she knows Kate is back to screw up her relationship with Sawyer.
> 
> So, who sent young Ben in to give Sayid a sandwich? Sawyer has to know that kid is Ben, right?


I think Ben took the initiative.
If this is after the first time he met Richard, he may be curious about a "hostile".



tewcewl said:


> That's something the show has yet to answer. We think that there is a major incident (referred on the show as The Incident) that prevents babies from being born. So, pre-1977, this isn't a problem.


Perhaps that's a side effect of Ben gassing everyone.

"Dude, your English is awesome!"


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Where's The Shed? (that's where Jack will be working as a work man)


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

By the way, Christian was looking at the Dharma pictures and said 72, 76, 78, ..

so we know they were around as early as 72..


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Cindy1230 said:


> I totally knew, a few weeks ago, that Frank would at least try to land the plane using that runway. [colbert] I called it! [\colbert]
> 
> Why didn't Sun flash? Was she not suppose to go back, but yet she has a long journey to take, why not just flash if she was suppose to be there.


Sun didn't flash because they are saving the Sun/Jin reunion for the season finale.  (pure speculation)


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Ok, seriously-I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet-the biggest thing from the episode yet....

They have definetely changed the past. Did you see Otherton when Sun and Frank met Christian? It is ruined-it was never colonized by the Others after the Purge. It still has Dharma stuff everywhere-logos, signs-even though it's supposed to be 2007-3 years after they left. So in 30 years, it was never touched. That tells me that the group in 1977 changes the past somehow so that no Others ever move in and take over. 

The dock is ruined-but we've seen that dock used before, like when Locke blew up the sub. 

Amazing!

Essentially-Locke, Sun, Frank and Ben are in an alternate future now.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

spikedavis said:


> Ok, seriously-I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet-the biggest thing from the episode yet....
> 
> They have definetely changed the past. Did you see Otherton when Sun and Frank met Christian? It is ruined-it was never colonized by the Others after the Purge. It still has Dharma stuff everywhere-logos, signs-even though it's supposed to be 2007-3 years after they left. So in 30 years, it was never touched. That tells me that the group in 1977 changes the past somehow so that no Others ever move in and take over.
> 
> ...


Not how I saw it.. I saw it as a destroyed Othertown after the freighter mercenaries blew up some of the buildings with rocket launchers and machine guns.

As to the Dharma pictures on the walls, that is an interesting point - why would the "others" keep the pictures on the walls.. The closest thing to a hint that that theory might be right is the changing pictures on the wall at the house that Miles went to - but I still don't buy it. I think the '77 picture on the wall was always there and always had Hurley, Kate, and Jack in it.. (Note that those three plus Sawyer WERE the ones that the Others had Michael bring to the dock, as was mentioned in last week's thread).

..but, you've got me paying attention.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Not how I saw it.. I saw it as a destroyed Othertown after the freighter mercenaries blew up some of the buildings with rocket launchers and machine guns.
> 
> As to the Dharma pictures on the walls, that is an interesting point - why would the "others" keep the pictures on the walls.. The closest thing to a hint that that theory might be right is the changing pictures on the wall at the house that Miles went to - but I still don't buy it. I think the '77 picture on the wall was always there and always had Hurley, Kate, and Jack in it.. (Note that those three plus Sawyer WERE the ones that the Others had Michael bring to the dock, as was mentioned in last week's thread).
> 
> ..but, you've got me paying attention.


It is different. There were even the signs for Orientation and so forth. Remember-"Otherville" looks much different than Dharmaville-they removed all the Dharma stuff from the barracks and moved in. In this alternate barracks, it's as if it were abandoned and never lived in.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

To further illustrate my point look at these screenshots-the windows from the Dharma buildings are boarded up as well. Do you remember seeing these buildings boarded up before?


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Great episode. I loved the camerawork when Sun was about to clobber Ben.

I think we pretty much figured out what she was going to do, but they kept her exactly behind Ben so it would still be a jolt.

As for the ending, I thought they made it a bit too suspenseful, when again, I think we all knew it was Ben as soon as we heard a kid's voice, and certainly when we saw him.

I think they could have done that a little better.

Small nitpick though.

-smak-


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Well this is even better. Radzinski BUILDS the Swan, and ends up trapped inside it, to the point where he eventually kills himself.


I need a memory update. I don't remember Radzinski or anyone trapped in the Swan and killing himself. When did this happen?


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

Agreed that this was another fantastic episode in an already excellent season!

I love the fact that Hurley suggested that he didn't know who the president was in 1977. 

Am I the only one here who didn't know what "Namaste" meant? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namaste

When Sun and Pilot first see Christian at the door, it really creeped me out!


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

jamesbobo said:


> I need a memory update. I don't remember Radzinski or anyone trapped in the Swan and killing himself. When did this happen?


We've never actually seen Radzinsky until now, but Inman tells Desmond about him in one of Desmond's flashback episodes. He was Inman's partner in the Swan before Desmond shipwrecked on the island.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Eight47 said:


> The actor is Dan Gauthier.
> 
> Last Sunday the Lost rerun was "Adrift", when Juliet's backstory is told. At the end when she is crying over her ex being hit by a bus Ethan is there. Her first words to him, with a puzzled face were "Have we met?".
> 
> Does that mean at that time she "recognized" him?


She hadn't met baby Ethan yet, she just recognized him from his earlier recruiting efforts.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Eight47 said:


> The actor is Dan Gauthier.


I wonder if he's related to Dick Gauthier ("Hymie" the robot from Get Smart). Not his son (Dick has three children, none of them named Dan) but the looks are similar. Could be a nephew.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

spikedavis said:


> To further illustrate my point look at these screenshots-the windows from the Dharma buildings are boarded up as well. Do you remember seeing these buildings boarded up before?


Didn't they board up the windows before the mercs showed up? Or are you suggesting they were *not* boarded up last night? Sorry the images you posted aren't showing up.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

smak said:


> As for the ending, I thought they made it a bit too suspenseful, when again, I think we all knew it was Ben as soon as we heard a kid's voice, and certainly when we saw him.
> 
> I think they could have done that a little better.


They do that slow reveal all the freakin time, and it's never (rarely anyway) a surprise. The worst one that I can remember was when Hurley was being chased by the cops and they had him slowly get out of his car with his back to the camera and slowly slowly turn around as the music builds to a crescendo where it's finally revealed that the giant round guy with long curly hair is actually... [gasp!] Hurley!

There was another slow reveal in this ep with Christian, where it's obvious by his outline who it was. He's also the "spirit" associated with Jacob we expect to see in those spooky moments.

There must be 50 of those slow reveals throughout the show's run.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

lpamelaa said:


> Wow...think about this! That means that Ben would have already known Sayid, Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sawyer, etc from when he was a child. No wonder he always seemed omniscient! It puts a whole new twist on all the ways he's manipulated these people along the way. And it makes me want to watch all his early interactions with the Oceanic survivors again.


 From all accounts, the actors had no idea where the story was going either and had to play the scenes straight.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

In 2004 the actor who plays Ethan was 39 -- 12 years older than Ethan would have been. That's quite a stretch, but we're on Island time, so who knows.

We know that Dharma was still around in '78 (Christian mentions the '78 orientation picture) but maybe not much beyond that. So Ethan could still have been a toddler during the Purge and not have had any choice about joining the Others. He probably isn't the only survivor (apart from Ben).


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Phil is going to be a problem. I don't know if he doesn't trust LaFleur, or if he's crushing on him and jealous.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Good thing for the kid that plays young Ben that he didn't have a Walt-like growth spurt. He's taller, yes, but still looks like a boy. And his voice hasn't changed yet. He's still got a job.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> So, now that we see Hurley is carrying a guitar case, he's the closest thing to a musician we've seen back here, right? Does he eventually create the security code in the Looking Glass for Charlie to figure out later?


We've known he was carrying a guitar case from the a few weeks ago when he got on a the plane again, that's not new.

What we haven't seen yet, is a guitar.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Okay, first things last: This was indeed a great episode. Now that all (most) the off-island business is taken care of, and the band is back together, the story has settled down and the show has that comfortable and familiar Lost-like feel. While I've enjoyed all the episodes this season, and there have been several wonderful moments, there was also something foreign about them to me. Not this episode. This one was... It _felt _like old Lost. I can't explain it without thinking deeply and writing long, so I'll just leave it at that. I loved it. Not many episodes left. It's good to be back.


----------



## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

Kamakzie said:


> So that was Ben as a kid.. I thought it was Harry Potter.


I thought the same thing.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Wow. I completely missed that woman in the room behind Sun. I expected to see a ghost-like image or something when someone mentioned her earlier in the thread, but it's just a regular woman, mostly in shadow. It's almost like one of the people on set was accidentally filmed. Making a note to explore other websites on this subject...

Oh, I just remembered another little moment. An editing snafu. There's a little jump-cut when Kate is getting out of the van. They cut two different shots together from nearly the same angle, or possibly edited out a small section (I blame Radzinsky! ) No big deal, but it did cause me to rewind and slo-mo the shot.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

pcguru83 said:


> What I thought was great was Sun's response to "seeing" the smoke monster. She responded, "It's probably just some animal," which is the exact same response that someone said (Charlie maybe?) when we "saw"/heard the smoke monster in the very first episode or two. Nice touch.


Frank's rallying speech to the Ajira castaways on the beach was Jack's verbatim from the pilot episode, wasn't it? If not, it was pretty close. Are these just little easter eggs from the writers, or does the repetition of past dialog by different characters carry significance within the actual context of the show? I'm thinking it's significant. As I believe was mentioned in earlier threads, many of the characters have basically swapped roles from how they were on Oceanic 815 versus Ajira 316. Hurley is now the musician, rather than Charlie. Sayid is now the one in custody, rather than Kate. Locke is now the body in the coffin, rather than Christian. Jack is now the one with addiction issues, rather than Charlie. Kate may now be pregnant, rather than Claire (or so people have posited - I don't think the show has indicated this to be the case). Ben boards the flight at the last minute, rather than Hurley, and he walks the aisle just before the crash, just like Charlie on his way to the bathroom. Sun is holding Jin's ring, rather than Rose holding onto Bernard's. I'm pretty sure there were other flip-flops, as well, but I can't recall them at the moment. But there were some other juxtapositions shown in this episode:



jkeegan said:


> Damned cool, by the way, that much like Sayid had Henry Gale (Ben) in custody and Ben was a complete mystery (and full of lies), so does Ben now have Sayid in custody, he's a complete mystery, and he's full of lies.


That's one.

All of this has happened before. And it will happen again.


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Has anyone else noticed that both Lapidus and Farraday must be going to the same acting coach. Their facial manerisims are identical. Both of them with the slight head tilt and squinting eyes. They both do the raspy voice thing too. Watch them both and I think you'll see a lot of similarities....


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> We've known he was carrying a guitar case from the a few weeks ago when he got on a the plane again, that's not new.
> 
> What we haven't seen yet, is a guitar.


I expected Sawyer to ask Hurley what's in the case.

We didn't see Hurley's Dharma assignment and living quarters. Wonder what they have him doing.


----------



## Trugoy (Jun 25, 2006)

aindik said:


> I expected Sawyer to ask Hurley what's in the case.
> 
> We didn't see Hurley's Dharma assignment and living quarters. Wonder what they have him doing.


His jumpsuit said Chef.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm really enjoying Lost again, much, much more than the last two seasons. I look forward to Wednesday nights again.

Sawyer verbally slapping Jack down made my day.

Seemed odd to me that Sawyer and Julliet could slip three people into the Dharma Initiative so easily and quickly.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> The copilot looked a bit familiar but I'm not sure where from.


He played Skip on Friends. He he.

When they were trying to get control of the plane, using the radio,... you can hear the numbers on the transmission.

I thought they turned those off? Or they just turned off Danielle's transmission.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lost+numbers+explanation


Can anyone give a 25 words or less version?


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

The orientation video Jack, Hurley, and Kate were watching with Dr. Chang... He was wearing a Swan lab coat. And we know the Swan hasn't been built yet. 

When he met Jack, he was a wearing a regular dharma logo lab coat.


----------



## TheDewAddict (Aug 21, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Can anyone give a 25 words or less version?


Spoiler'd just to be safe:


Spoiler



Dharma was trying to work out the result of an equation which predicts the end of the world. The numbers are the result.


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Can anyone give a 25 words or less version?





Spoiler



The numbers are constants that predict the end of humanity. The Dharma Inititive set out to change a constant to prevent the end from happening.

(25 words)


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Going off the "I recognize that actor" theory, I predict that one of the survivors of 316 will play a big role this season.. he was only on for about 2 seconds but I recognized him from October Road..

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0377034/


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Seemed odd to me that Sawyer and Julliet could slip three people into the Dharma Initiative so easily and quickly.


Amy (I had to search for that name, the name I wanted to type was Michelle Dessler ) told Juliet that two (I thought it was two) recruits didn't make the trip on the sub because they refused to take the sedative. Juliet just never told anyone else that information, and Jack and Hurley took their place. Then, Juliet ran in with "last minute" information about Kate.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TheDewAddict said:


> Spoiler'd just to be safe:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Perfect, thank you very much.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DancnDude said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks.

I hope they succeed.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

So when Ben told Michael to bring back Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley, he specifically didn't mention Sayid.

This is very interesting. I also now really want to rewatch some episodes.

We also saw Christian physically grab something. I don't recall him ever doing that before.... to me, that is the biggest mystery.. why do dead people resurrect when they crash on the island.

Where was Locke this episode?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

GDG76 said:


> Where was Locke this episode?


Still in the box.

I think the "present time" of this episode is before the present time of the episode where we saw Locke on the beach. In this ep, Cesar had not yet been spying in the buildings on Hydra island.

My question is, how does Ben end up in that sick bay, from where he is at the end of Namaste. Do they just pick him up and put him there after Sun smacked him in the head?


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

GDG76 said:


> Where was Locke this episode?


Assuming Sun didn't hit Ben in the head too hard, Locke was probably introducing himself to the 316s while Sun and Frank were meeting Christian.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I always thought that Jacob wasn't real, or Jacob was a figurehead who really wasn't powerful.. and was used by people on the island as some sort of mythical inspiration but really wasn't powerful..

Now I am thinking that Jacob is.... Jack. Other than the name similarities, I think something will happen from here on out in the '77 timeline that will cause this to happen. It would add great layers to the Locke/Jack story...


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

The theories about Ben recognizing Sayid and the others are fascinating.

I wonder if this time where young-Ben gets to know them relates to the "list" we heard about in season 1.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> I think the '77 picture on the wall was always there and always had Hurley, Kate, and Jack in it.. (Note that those three plus Sawyer WERE the ones that the Others had Michael bring to the dock, as was mentioned in last week's thread).


But wouldn't one of the 815s have noticed the picture while they were living there?

One possibility other than an alternate future is that this building looks different than it really is. Perhaps Sun and Frank were seeing what the building looked like at some earlier point in time. That could also be why Christian was able to pick up the picture. Or maybe this building wasn't even there when the 815s were there. We have seen buildings move before.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

GDG76 said:


> I always thought that Jacob wasn't real, or Jacob was a figurehead who really wasn't powerful.. and was used by people on the island as some sort of mythical inspiration but really wasn't powerful..
> 
> Now I am thinking that Jacob is.... Jack. Other than the name similarities, I think something will happen from here on out in the '77 timeline that will cause this to happen. It would add great layers to the Locke/Jack story...


Just thought of something else... Horace was the one who built the cabin for Jacob.

So it makes sense that one of the Oceanic 815 is Jacob. I'd bet something happens where the Dharma initiative needs to lock them up (the lie is discovered) and the cabin is actually a prison. Since they are from the future, they could be considered "gods" since they know what will happen...

We've seen that Jacob is white, so Jacob is either Hurley, Sawyer or Jack. Given that Hurley had an episode that had to do with Jacob, it may point towards him as well.. could also make a case for Sawyer...


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> Assuming Sun didn't hit Ben in the head too hard, Locke was probably introducing himself to the 316s while Sun and Frank were meeting Christian.


"Letff me outta thisfff box!!!"


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

All I know, is when an episode of Lost is over, waiting ONE week until the next episode seems like an eternaty. I can't remember EVER saying that about any show I've ever watched, and I've been watching TV since the 1960s. Anyway, I'm hoping, when the series is over, that whoever creates the enevitable DVD Box set, includes a way to watch the series in chronological order. I think it would be cool to see the Losties as they appear in the different time periods out of context to what we already know. I'm not sure if this can be done effectively (they may have to edit in some additional scenes), but I think it would be fun. Any thoughts?


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> One comment not really related to tonight, but I went back to the earliest episode I had on my HD tivo, which was the "Destiny Calls" recap before the season started.. They showed Ben in school, and the teacher's name is Olivia.. That's gotta be Olivia Goodspeed, right? Too lazy to get up and find the earlier seasons' DVDs right now so I could see if it's the same actress from the episode when Ben was born (wasn't that actually in the same episode?).
> 
> Ok, back to tonight. (by the way, if I didn't say it explicitly yet, I LOVED THIS EPISODE!)


http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Olivia_Goodspeed


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Actually, Chang asked Jack who drove him from the sub. But Sun and Frank didn't walk that far from the dock to the processsing center. So either the building moved, or the sub dropped the recruits off at a different dock. But I'm not sure why the sub wouldn't drop them off at the closest dock.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

GDG76 said:


> We also saw Christian physically grab something. I don't recall him ever doing that before....


We first saw Christian grab something back in the bottom of the well with Locke. When Christian walked out of the darkness, Locke asked something like "who's there?". Christian then proceeded to take an old kerosene lantern off the wall, he lit it, then spoke to Locke.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Kamakzie said:


> So that was Ben as a kid.. I thought it was Harry Potter.


http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1550612_20245769_20266554,00.html



spikedavis said:


> Ok, seriously-I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet-the biggest thing from the episode yet....
> 
> They have definetely changed the past. Did you see Otherton when Sun and Frank met Christian? It is ruined-it was never colonized by the Others after the Purge. It still has Dharma stuff everywhere-logos, signs-even though it's supposed to be 2007-3 years after they left. So in 30 years, it was never touched. That tells me that the group in 1977 changes the past somehow so that no Others ever move in and take over.
> 
> ...


I noticed it and agree with your assessment that the future might very well have been changed.



jkeegan said:


> The closest thing to a hint that that theory might be right is the changing pictures on the wall at the house that Miles went to - but I still don't buy it. I think the '77 picture on the wall was always there and always had Hurley, Kate, and Jack in it.. (Note that those three plus Sawyer WERE the ones that the Others had Michael bring to the dock, as was mentioned in last week's thread).
> 
> ..but, you've got me paying attention.


Why wasn't Jin also brought back by Michael?



BitbyBlit said:


> Actually, Chang asked Jack who drove him from the sub. But Sun and Frank didn't walk that far from the dock to the processsing center. So either the building moved, or the sub dropped the recruits off at a different dock. But I'm not sure why the sub wouldn't drop them off at the closest dock.


Interesting point.


----------



## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

When Jack met Chang, I thought he was going to call him Dr Candle by mistake.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> We know that Dharma was still around in '78 (Christian mentions the '78 orientation picture) but maybe not much beyond that. So Ethan could still have been a toddler during the Purge and not have had any choice about joining the Others. He probably isn't the only survivor (apart from Ben).


Except that we've already seen The Purge, and Ben is an adult by that time. Considering that Ben is 11-15 in this episode, I'd say the Purge is at least 10 years after 1977.


BitbyBlit said:


> But wouldn't one of the 815s have noticed the picture while they were living there?


The 815ers lived in Dharmaville after the Others, so it's unlikely that any of the Dharma pictures would have still been on the walls when the 815ers moved in.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> Hey wait a sec..
> 
> Ethan is the name of the kid.. Great.. that's Ethan. But we see Ethan with the others! Ethan is gonna betray his mother Amy and live through her being gassed to death (unless she joins the others too, which I'd say there's a 0% chance of since they killed Paul, unless Paul is still alive and is the one to recruit her). Ethan follows in his dad's footsteps, if that ankh was any indication..


Horace, not Paul, is Ethan's father, right? So where does the last name Rom come from?


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

tiams said:


> Horace, not Paul, is Ethan's father, right? So where does the last name Rom come from?


I'm sure it's a fake name the Others came up with so that his name could be a cool anagram.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I just remembered the scene where Ben was screwing with Sawyers head (with the bunny and the different island) with the device in his heart that could kill him..

That was probably some revenge for what Sawyer did (will do) to Ben as a boy


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except that we've already seen The Purge, and Ben is an adult by that time. Considering that Ben is 11-15 in this episode, I'd say the Purge is at least 10 years after 1977.
> 
> The 815ers lived in Dharmaville after the Others, so it's unlikely that any of the Dharma pictures would have still been on the walls when the 815ers moved in.


That's a great point. Imagine if one of the 815ers saw the 1977 picture with THEMSELVES in it!!


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

tiams said:


> Horace, not Paul, is Ethan's father, right? So where does the last name Rom come from?


The Others probably gave him a new name after the Purge, or maybe he chose one himself. Who knows, maybe he was in Ben's book club and they were reading Ethan Frome.


----------



## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> Actually, Chang asked Jack who drove him from the sub. But Sun and Frank didn't walk that far from the dock to the processsing center. So either the building moved, or the sub dropped the recruits off at a different dock. But I'm not sure why the sub wouldn't drop them off at the closest dock.


There are only three docks: the processing station, the underwater dock at The Looking Glass station and the "Hydra" island dock. When Juliet arrives (in a flashback back in some earlier season), she arrives at the processing station, as do Ben and his father. So, the processing station appears to be the only dock the submarine lets off recruits. Which makes the whole "who drove you here" question odd, since the dock is practically next door to the processing station.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jwehman said:


> There are only three docks: the processing station, the underwater dock at The Looking Glass station and the "Hydra" island dock. When Juliet arrives (in a flashback back in some earlier season), she arrives at the processing station, as do Ben and his father. So, the processing station appears to be the only dock the submarine lets off recruits. Which makes the whole "who drove you here" question odd, since the dock is practically next door to the processing station.


Unless the question is a test because Chang knows something is up with Jack. The answer he was looking for from a real recruit was "nobody - we walked."

That's a very good catch.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> The copilot looked a bit familiar but I'm not sure where from.


Reminded me of Hoban Washburne at one point...


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

aindik said:


> Unless the question is a test because Chang knows something is up with Jack. The answer he was looking for from a real recruit was "nobody - we walked."
> 
> That's a very good catch.


Or he was checking to see if the effects of the sedative had worn off.


----------



## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> You could be both. Oh, and how many people think Sayid will try and kill Ben soon? And when Ben finds out Sayid isn't a hostile, that's what pushes him to go to the others.


Or by spending time with Sayid, Sayid convinces young Ben to gas Dharma.


----------



## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

Did Jack's jumpsuit say "Jack" in addition to "Workman". When the long dead workman was found previously, was there another name on that jumpsuit?


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Per my earlier post, I still wanted to know how we knew Dr. Chang's name before this episode revealed it, so I went hunting for it. It was actually revealed outside of the show at a video shown at Comic-Con.

The revelations in this video are REALLY interesting. I've spoilerized the rest of it.

In this video-within-a-skit or whatever it was, Dr. Candle revealed his true name to be Dr. Pierre Chang, and he said he was a professor and scientist in Ann Arbor, Mich.


Spoiler



He talked about the Dharma Initiative's "violent purge" and said the group needed to be reconstituted and its "research" begun again.

He was wearing a very '70s sweater, and said he was speaking from 30 years in the past. Off-screen, a voice could be saying that making this video was "useless"; the voice sure sounded a lot like that of Daniel Faraday.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Trugoy said:


> His jumpsuit said Chef.


Hurley as Chef? Isn't that a Fox in the Henhouse kinda thing?

I love Hugo.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except that we've already seen The Purge, and Ben is an adult by that time. Considering that Ben is 11-15 in this episode, I'd say the Purge is at least 10 years after 1977.


Lostpedia- "The Purge occured at 4 P.M. on December 19, 1992, which happened to be Ben's birthday."


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

GadgetFreak said:


> Did Jack's jumpsuit say "Jack" in addition to "Workman". When the long dead workman was found previously, was there another name on that jumpsuit?


It was Roger. It was Ben's Father.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> The 815ers lived in Dharmaville after the Others, so it's unlikely that any of the Dharma pictures would have still been on the walls when the 815ers moved in.


That was the point. If the pictures had been up, I would think one of the 815s would have seen it. So, since the picture are up now, either this is an alternate timeline or they are seeing how the building looked at some earlier point in time. (Or they are actually not in 2007/2008, but that would contradict the "Thirty Years Ago" we saw.)


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

3D said:


> Or he was checking to see if the effects of the sedative had worn off.


Or he saw Jack get out of the mini van, and thought it strange someone would be driven from the dock. When he heard it was LaFleur, it was ok. Also, if they were sedated, I'm sure some would have a hard time with the short walk from the dock to the processing station.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I wonder if Sun not going with the other Losties had something to do with her meeting with Widmore. Perhaps the island (or entity on the island) doesn't like that she met with Widmore, Widmore did something to keep Sun in the present, or Sun did something to keep herself there because she was working with Widmore to do something.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> That was the point. If the pictures had been up, I would think one of the 815s would have seen it. So, since the picture are up now, either this is an alternate timeline or they are seeing how the building looked at some earlier point in time. (Or they are actually not in 2007/2008, but that would contradict the "Thirty Years Ago" we saw.)


Or Christian put the pictures up. (And I'm convinced that Christian is actually an older Jack, who has been on the island since 1977.)


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> That was the point. If the pictures had been up, I would think one of the 815s would have seen it. So, since the picture are up now, either this is an alternate timeline or they are seeing how the building looked at some earlier point in time. (Or they are actually not in 2007/2008, but that would contradict the "Thirty Years Ago" we saw.)


Ah, I get where you're coming from now. Yes, I agree that it's odd that the Dharmaville Frank and Sun wandered into does not appear to have ever been inhabited by the Others. That tells me that in the reality where Sun and Frank are now, the Others don't exist, because there's no way they'd leave a perfectly good settlement like that untouched for 10+ years.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Here's the mystery redhead behind Sun...

http://img7.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redw.jpg

Courtesy AVS Forum post


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

philw1776 said:


> Here's the mystery redhead behind Sun...
> 
> http://img7.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redw.jpg
> 
> Courtesy AVS Forum post


I, with a SD TV, did NOT see that. Very intriguing.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Philosofy said:


> (And I'm convinced that Christian is actually an older Jack, who has been on the island since 1977.)


Can't be. We've seen him off the island, interacting with Jack. Christian is Christian. Whether he's an avatar for something or someone else, I don't know. But he is NOT Jack.


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> I wonder if Sun not going with the other Losties had something to do with her meeting with Widmore. Perhaps the island (or entity on the island) doesn't like that she met with Widmore, Widmore did something to keep Sun in the present, or Sun did something to keep herself there because she was working with Widmore to do something.


I wonder if Jack, Sayid, Kate, Hurley all sat in their orignal seats so that caused them to go back in time. Locke, Ben, Pilot didn't for sure and they stayed in the present. Does anyone know if Sun sat in her original seat?


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Stupid question................

The.....drama....of the reveal to Sayid that that was Ben, was only for Sayid, right? We knew that that was Ben from a prior ep in a prior season when we see flashbacks of Ben on the Island as a child, with "Alice" and all......right?


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

jlb said:


> Stupid question................
> 
> The.....drama....of the reveal to Sayid that that was Ben, was only for Sayid, right? We knew that that was Ben from a prior ep in a prior season when we see flashbacks of Ben on the Island as a child, with "Alice" and all......right?


The drama is what will Sayid do to that young Ben-not that Ben is a child in 1977. It's the age old question-if you could go back in time and kill Hitler, would you?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

whitson77 said:


> I wonder if Jack, Sayid, Kate, Hurley all sat in their orignal seats so that caused them to go back in time. Locke, Ben, Pilot didn't for sure and they stayed in the present. Does anyone know if Sun sat in her original seat?


I think everyone sat in first class on 316 and they were all in coach on 815.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

spikedavis said:


> The drama is what will Sayid do to that young Ben-not that Ben is a child in 1977. It's the age old question-if you could go back in time and kill Hitler, would you?


Tom Cruise says he would


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

spikedavis said:


> The drama is what will Sayid do to that young Ben-not that Ben is a child in 1977. It's the age old question-if you could go back in time and kill Hitler, would you?


There was dramatic music and a pause before the kid said "I'm Ben."

But we've seen this actor as young Ben before. It was not a surprise to us that the kid bringing Sayid the sandwich was Ben. As soon as we saw the kid's face, we should have recognized it from a prior episode. Yet the cues were written as if we'd never seen the kid before.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

I think we're back at Faraday saying that the past cannot be changed. I think Ben is probably the way he is "now" (adult Ben) because of what happened to him as a child (possibly by Sayid). It's kinda like there is already a predestined plan for you, and no matter what you try, you can't escape it. Like Charlie's death.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

aindik said:


> There was dramatic music and a pause before the kid said "I'm Ben."
> 
> But we've seen this actor as young Ben before. It was not a surprise to us that the kid bringing Sayid the sandwich was Ben. As soon as we saw the kid's face, we should have recognized it from a prior episode. Yet the cues were written as if we'd never seen the kid before.


That's what I meant.........exactly.


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## HIHZia (Nov 3, 2004)

philw1776 said:


> Here's the mystery redhead behind Sun...
> 
> http://img7.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redw.jpg
> 
> Courtesy AVS Forum post


Looked blonde to me. I assumed it was Claire at the time I was watching.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

On one hand, being claire would make sense given the scene last season with claire and christian......

But, the size of the person and shape of the head/hair makes me think it looks like Charlotte.


----------



## shaunrose (Sep 13, 2001)

Maybe Sun did not go back in time because she is different. When she left the island, she was pregnant. When she came back, since she did not bring her daughter, it made her different. 

Mother Farraday said that if they did not all go back together, the results could be unpredictable. 

Aaron also did not go back.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

spikedavis said:


> The drama is what will Sayid do to that young Ben-not that Ben is a child in 1977. It's the age old question-if you could go back in time and kill Hitler, would you?


What you do, if you still have the ability to time-travel home, is grab the kid and bring him to the future with you. You haven't commited murder of a child, but you've removed the monster from the timeline, and can keep an eye on him to see if he starts following the same path as in his original timeline...

Then you see to it that Social Services gets involved and puts him away for good. 

I suppose that technically you've kidnapped a child by moving him forward in time, but he IS still alive.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

gastrof said:


> What you do, if you still have the ability to time-travel home, is grab the kid and bring him to the future with you. You haven't commited murder of a child, but you've removed the monster from the timeline, and can keep an eye on him to see if he starts following the same path as in his original timeline...
> 
> Then you see to it that Social Services gets involved and puts him away for good.
> 
> I suppose that technically you've kidnapped a child by moving him forward in time, but he IS still alive.


BUT!!!!!

IF you remove/kill Ben as a kid-then he never runs The Others, never sends Michael off the island, never turns the Frozen Wheel, never brings The Oceanic Six back the the island, etc etc.

Space Time Continuum collapses, Dogs and Cats living together, Mass Hysteria!


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

gastrof said:


> What you do, if you still have the ability to time-travel home, is grab the kid and bring him to the future with you. You haven't commited murder of a child, but you've removed the monster from the timeline, and can keep an eye on him to see if he starts following the same path as in his original timeline...
> 
> Then you see to it that Social Services gets involved and puts him away for good.
> 
> I suppose that technically you've kidnapped a child by moving him forward in time, but he IS still alive.


But if you can't change the past and it's "his destiny" to be there, he will find a way to go back in time to be there.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Released on itunes a couple days ago. It's on youtube. From the DI's favorite band.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Dharma_Lady











> Dharma Lady, how ya been?
> Are we lovers, or we just friends?
> I believe, Oh I believe
> I'm in love again.
> ...


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Big_Daddy said:


> The theories about Ben recognizing Sayid and the others are fascinating.


In earlier seasons they made a point of saying that they researched them because they have access to the internet, etc. but they probably have been watching them ever since.... they left? If it works that way. 



spikedavis said:


> The drama is what will Sayid do to that young Ben-not that Ben is a child in 1977. It's the age old question-if you could go back in time and kill Hitler, would you?


But according to Faraday's rules, you can't, can you? None of these people can be killed in 1977, which brings up a question of what happens if you try. Gun jams, they duck...


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

tewcewl said:


> Per my earlier post, I still wanted to know how we knew Dr. Chang's name before this episode revealed it, so I went hunting for it. It was actually revealed outside of the show at a video shown at Comic-Con.


Do you have a link?


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Anyone catch who the guest star was on The Muppet Show?


No...who???


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

aindik said:


> There was dramatic music and a pause before the kid said "I'm Ben."
> 
> But we've seen this actor as young Ben before. It was not a surprise to us that the kid bringing Sayid the sandwich was Ben. As soon as we saw the kid's face, we should have recognized it from a prior episode. Yet the cues were written as if we'd never seen the kid before.


You're forgetting that the network has to cater to the 90% of the audience (yes, even a show like Lost) who completely forgot (or didn't know, since they haven't watched and re-watched every episode) that the boy was Ben.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Little late to the game today... Here some of my thoughts:



BitbyBlit said:


> That was the point. If the pictures had been up, I would think one of the 815s would have seen it. So, since the picture are up now, either this is an alternate timeline or they are seeing how the building looked at some earlier point in time. (Or they are actually not in 2007/2008, but that would contradict the "Thirty Years Ago" we saw.)


This is exactly what I thought about. If I'm not mistaken, he took Sun and Frank to the same building/room where Kate was held in "Left Behind", and Sayid was held in an episode last season. So by the theory that seems to be true at this point, that picture was "always" on the wall, meaning anyone in and out of that room could have recognized it. I don't even get why that picture was there--wouldn't the others have trashed stuff like that when they took over? Why keep a wall full of pictures from a society you wiped out?



> Ah, I get where you're coming from now. Yes, I agree that it's odd that the Dharmaville Frank and Sun wandered into does not appear to have ever been inhabited by the Others. That tells me that in the reality where Sun and Frank are now, the Others don't exist, because there's no way they'd leave a perfectly good settlement like that untouched for 10+ years. [/


I think they were in the right place/current time--Otherville was blown up and shot to hell during Keamy's raid last season--that's why the whole place was trashed.

As for the mystery chick, I don't think it's Claire at all--the chick has straight hair and it looks a lot darker then claire's. I think if they wanted us to think it was her they would have used someone who at least *sort of* resembled her. I honestly think it was a goof! No one agrees though because people can't FATHOM lost making a mistake like that.

Try this screencap, I brightened it up a bit--to me it looks nothing like claire. 
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3081/p3180043.jpg


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

I think my head might just explode before this series is over.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

aindik said:


> There was dramatic music and a pause before the kid said "I'm Ben."
> 
> But we've seen this actor as young Ben before. It was not a surprise to us that the kid bringing Sayid the sandwich was Ben. As soon as we saw the kid's face, we should have recognized it from a prior episode. Yet the cues were written as if we'd never seen the kid before.


I took it more as anticipation of Sayid's reaction than anticipation of the reveal about Ben. It did seem a little odd though. Maybe the editor and the guy who did the music forgot we had seen him before.


----------



## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

Man...I really don't visit blogs for the show, and I am spotty on checking out the threads here...but I just realized yesterday that the dude Frank was the bearded helicopter pilot...

Wow... It took me a long time to figure that one out... I guess I am not the brightest bulb...


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I took it more as anticipation of Sayid's reaction than anticipation of the reveal about Ben. It did seem a little odd though. Maybe the editor and the guy who did the music forgot we had seen him before.


I'm not sure why people are perplexed by this. We saw young Ben in a flashback, yes-but the Losties are now able to INTERACT with him-and possibly change things. We saw those flashbacks but no one else did-they know nothing about Ben. Now the stage is set for Sayid to alter Ben's life forever-that is major.


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

mrdazzo7 said:


> This is exactly what I thought about. If I'm not mistaken, he took Sun and Frank to the same building/room where Kate was held in "Left Behind", and Sayid was held in an episode last season. So by the theory that seems to be true at this point, that picture was "always" on the wall, meaning anyone in and out of that room could have recognized it. I don't even get why that picture was there--wouldn't the others have trashed stuff like that when they took over? Why keep a wall full of pictures from a society you wiped out?
> 
> I think they were in the right place/current time--Otherville was blown up and shot to hell during Keamy's raid last season--that's why the whole place was trashed.
> 
> ...


Except the buildings weren't just destroyed-they were dusty and rotten and had boards on the windows. People had not lived there in sometime. Trust me-they were implying that it was different. Unless this was an entirely different set of barracks that the Others lived in.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

spikedavis said:


> I'm not sure why people are perplexed by this. We saw young Ben in a flashback, yes-but the Losties are now able to INTERACT with him-and possibly change things. We saw those flashbacks but no one else did-they know nothing about Ben. Now the stage is set for Sayid to alter Ben's life forever-that is major.


Right, I agree, as I mentioned it made sense to make it a "big" moment from Sayid's POV. But it did seem as if it might also have been meant to be a big "reveal" for the audience, which makes less sense.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

MickeS said:


> Right, I agree, as I mentioned it made sense to make it a "big" moment from Sayid's POV. But it did seem as if it might also have been meant to be a big "reveal" for the audience, which makes less sense.


I don't think so because under the apparent "rules" of the show, all of this stuff has already happened from Ben's POV, and he clearly does not die as a child. The way I understand it, there is no "going back to the past and killing someone to change the future" in the show---we're simply seeing whats "always happened" (starting to hate that phrase!).

I don't like it, I think its a bit silly, but that seems to be what the show is doing--at least for now. I have a feeling Sun being in the present (or whenever the hell she is) is the laying the ground work for her to "correct" everything and bring them all back to current time.

So for now it would appear that ben knew the 815'ers as a child. I personally think this was not planned by the writers because if you watch season 2 and 3, there is no indication AT ALL that he recognizes or knows them prior to the plane crash, but according to the rules of the show he should.

Sigh.


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

mrdazzo7 said:


> So for now it would appear that ben knew the 815'ers as a child. I personally think this was not planned by the writers because if you watch season 2 and 3, there is no indication AT ALL that he recognizes or knows them prior to the plane crash, but according to the rules of the show he should.
> 
> Sigh.


Because we all know that Ben is a terrible liar.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

spikedavis said:


> Because we all know that Ben is a terrible liar.


Yeah, that's the easy argument. Of course it's fully impossible to assume that maybe the writers didn't plan out every frame of the show from day one.

Yes, Ben lies, I get it. It's not crazy to think he'd lie about knowing them. All I'm saying if this was all really planned there would have 100% been some kind of hint that if you went back and watched the episodes, you be like "wow they totally hinted at that"... There's nothing like that. It's so obvious that back then they had no idea that Ben knew these people all along.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

spikedavis said:


> Ok, seriously-I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet-the biggest thing from the episode yet....
> 
> They have definetely changed the past. Did you see Otherton when Sun and Frank met Christian? It is ruined-it was never colonized by the Others after the Purge. It still has Dharma stuff everywhere-logos, signs-even though it's supposed to be 2007-3 years after they left. So in 30 years, it was never touched. That tells me that the group in 1977 changes the past somehow so that no Others ever move in and take over.
> 
> ...


I assumed it looked ruined because Smokey did plenty of damage rumbling through when Ben "summoned" it to go after the mercenaries.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

cherry ghost said:


> I assumed it looked ruined because Smokey did plenty of damage rumbling through when Ben "summoned" it to go after the mercenaries.


Yeah I have to watch the episode again, but I just attributed it to smokey's blast-through combined with the attack by Keamy and his team. They pretty much trashed the whole place. But others are suggesting that the damage wasn't from that.

Personally I would love it if they changed stuff because that would mean Faraday's theory was wrong...


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

The mercenaries wouldn't have nailed boards to the windows after they trashed the place. 

The way Dharmaville looked in general, the Dharma group photo and the numbers transmission still being on when 316 is crashing, all make me lean toward the idea that this is an alternate timeline. 

But who knows, maybe the windows are boarded by someone after the mercenary attack; maybe this could all be explained by knowing precisely when the 316ers are...


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

mrdazzo7 said:


> So for now it would appear that ben knew the 815'ers as a child. I personally think this was not planned by the writers because if you watch season 2 and 3, there is no indication AT ALL that he recognizes or knows them prior to the plane crash, but according to the rules of the show he should.


I think I read that Ben wasn't supposed to be in the show for more than a few episodes, but that they changed that once they saw how well he worked out.

It's easy to justify him not recognizing them by saying he is good at acting and lying.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> The way Dharmaville looked in general, the Dharma group photo and the numbers transmission still being on when 316 is crashing, all make me lean toward the idea that this is an alternate timeline.


Except that so far there is no such thing as an alternate timeline in this show. It could be the case, but that would negate a big part of what's happened.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

MickeS said:


> Except that so far there is no such thing as an alternate timeline in this show. It could be the case, but that would negate a big part of what's happened.


I'm not neccesarily sold on the idea myself; but we may have seen alternate timelines and not been aware of it.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> You could be both. Oh, and how many people think Sayid will try and kill Ben soon? And when Ben finds out Sayid isn't a hostile, that's what pushes him to go to the others.


Or, young Ben thinks Sayid is really cool and a hep cat and all, and wants to join the Others even more because of him.



BitbyBlit said:


> Actually, Chang asked Jack who drove him from the sub. But Sun and Frank didn't walk that far from the dock to the processsing center. So either the building moved, or the sub dropped the recruits off at a different dock. But I'm not sure why the sub wouldn't drop them off at the closest dock.


At the risk of sounding the obvious, we may just be overthinking this. First, the Barracks were nowhere near *that* close to any dock. And with some 18 buildings there, we may never have seen the Orientation buildings before. I also wanted to add that I wasn't sure if the Pala Ferry dock had been mentioned, but that's what I thought the dock was Sun and Frank went to.



Steveknj said:


> That's a great point. Imagine if one of the 815ers saw the 1977 picture with THEMSELVES in it!!


Just think the ending of "The Shining".  "You've always been here, sir." But just imagine when Caesar and Ilana see that picture - hoo boy.

Question for the class: how did Ben know there were 3 outriggers, and where they were?


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

tewcewl said:


> I, with a SD TV, did NOT see that. Very intriguing.


You can see her in the online version at 35:05 (the beginning of the last segment). Click here to open the Lost viewer.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

aindik said:


> As soon as we saw the kid's face, we should have recognized it from a prior episode.


As as soon as I saw him running down with the sandwich, I figured it was him. There were no other boys they would just arbitrarily throw in there like that. What left some doubt in my mind was that I wasn't certain the writers intended to have Ben there at the same time as the Losties. But I guess we know now that they did.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Delta13 said:


> At the risk of sounding the obvious, we may just be overthinking this. First, the Barracks were nowhere near *that* close to any dock.


Philosofy made a good point about the effects of the drugs perhaps making it necessary to drive them. I think we know the sub is within a 10 minute walk from the episode where it was blown up, but that might have been too strenuous for those just waking up from their trip.



Delta13 said:


> And with some 18 buildings there, we may never have seen the Orientation buildings before.


We might not have seen it in an episode, but one of the Losties should have. I doubt they would have ignored any of the buildings there. (And if one of the Losties had seen it, we would have seen it in an episode. )

I suppose Richard and the other Others might have put the pictures up, but I'm not sure why they would, nor does it make sense that they would abandon the place in a short enough time that enough time would have passed for it to look as run-down as it was.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MickeS said:


> Except that so far there is no such thing as an alternate timeline in this show. It could be the case, but that would negate a big part of what's happened.


Indeed.

Yet the Orientation sign makes hash of the notion that they're still in "our" present, or any other possible time. That sign didn't exist when the Others controlled the village. So it can't be our timeline. And logically, given what they've established about "the rules," it can't be another timeline.

I think they're up to something really clever that hasn't dawned on us yet.

I wonder if it has something to do with those pictures on the wall of the house that Miles was in when we first met him? They were different when he went up the stairs and when he went down. It has been suggested that the White Sky Event happened on the island while Miles was upstairs, and that the world was a...different place afterward.


----------



## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

BitbyBlit said:


> We might not have seen it in an episode, but one of the Losties should have. I doubt they would have ignored any of the buildings there. (And if one of the Losties had seen it, we would have seen it in an episode. )
> 
> I suppose Richard and the other Others might have put the pictures up, but I'm not sure why they would, nor does it make sense that they would abandon the place in a short enough time that enough time would have passed for it to look as run-down as it was.


Richard and his crew could have "redressed" Otherville to look like it had been abandoned since the Purge just in case someone makes it through whats left of the Island's defences. Three years ago they went to "The Temple" and we really don't know what happened to them since. OK, they did show up at The Orchid when needed, but what have they been doing and how have they been living for the last 3 years?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Damon and Carlton revealed in the podcast that an inconsistency someone pointed out in an earlier thread here is actually an error and they're going on as if the error wasn't made. It's about Charlotte. I don't think this is a spoiler, but here I tagged it anyway since it contains behind the scenes stuff.



Spoiler



When Ben is reading Charlotte's bio to Charlotte et al. last season, he says she was born in 1979. The script said 1970, but Rebecca Mader's vanity kicked in and she didn't want to play a character who was 37. So, she asked to have the dialog changed on the set, and it was changed. (Apparently nobody on the set knew at the time that time travel was coming in the following season or how important the date was.). Damon and Carlton missed that during the editing process and it stayed in the show. They later decided that they're just going to go on as if the line had been delivered as written: 1970. That's why we can see a four year old Charlotte in 1974.


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

I'm hoping the thing about that building being an alternate timeline turns out to be as simple as "it's not really that building we saw before, but just another one that was built from the same plans" (quite reasonable given how Dharmaville is made up of tract housing and such), and "it got boarded up ages ago, specifically to _prevent_ the 815s from seeing those pictures and everything else in it that would clue them into something too early".


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Don't forget that Dharmaville was trashed by the mercenaries three years ago: that's why its in ruins.


----------



## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

Philosofy said:


> Don't forget that Dharmaville was trashed by the mercenaries three years ago: that's why its in ruins.


I was going to say the same thing. There have been 3 years of activity since the attack. Lots of stuff could have happened. Heck, Rose and Benard could have been living there for a while, and that was thier idea of design.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

aindik said:


> Damon and Carlton revealed in the podcast that an inconsistency someone pointed out in an earlier thread here is actually an error and they're going on as if the error wasn't made. It's about Charlotte. I don't think this is a spoiler, but here I tagged it anyway since it contains behind the scenes stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd go ahead and remove the spoiler tags. You're right, it's not a spoiler. It's the opposite of a spoiler. It's necessary information (at least for the kind of people who read threads like this).


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> Don't forget that Dharmaville was trashed by the mercenaries three years ago: that's why its in ruins.


But as has been pointed out, this Dharmaville isn't in ruins; it's been boarded up and abandoned. It doesn't look like the Others ever moved in. It still has the Dharma signage that wasn't there when the Others lived there. So _something _is going on.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Yeah. To distinguish between the nicknames (though they don't do it on the show).

Timeline A:


_Dharmaville _was purged by the others and became _New Otherton_.

_New Otherton_ was later trashed by the mercenaries .

Timeline B:


No New Otherton.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

aindik said:


> Damon and Carlton revealed in the podcast that an inconsistency someone pointed out in an earlier thread here is actually an error and they're going on as if the error wasn't made. It's about Charlotte. I don't think this is a spoiler, but here I tagged it anyway since it contains behind the scenes stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow. If I was a writer on this show, trying to juggle details, dates and continuity, I'd be absolutely livid about that.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Wow. If I was a writer on this show, trying to juggle details, dates and continuity, I'd be absolutely livid about that.


I agree. They change the script on the set on some two-bit actress's request? Unacceptable. ESPECIALLY on a show like this.

That might explain why they killed her off


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I don't think so because under the apparent "rules" of the show, all of this stuff has already happened from Ben's POV, and he clearly does not die as a child. The way I understand it, there is no "going back to the past and killing someone to change the future" in the show---we're simply seeing whats "always happened" (starting to hate that phrase!).
> 
> I don't like it, I think its a bit silly, but that seems to be what the show is doing--at least for now. I have a feeling Sun being in the present (or whenever the hell she is) is the laying the ground work for her to "correct" everything and bring them all back to current time.
> 
> ...


How I looked at it is that Sayid (and perhaps some of the other 815ers) would help shape what Ben will become rather than them trying to ALTER what has happened in the future. I figure there will be SOME interaction that will wind up sending Ben over to the Others and have his coup. Remember, the coup won't be for another 15 years based on the timelines posted here. So while the survivors will no doubt try and "stop" Ben, ultimately, in their efforts, they will end up turning him to the "dark side".


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Yeah, that's the easy argument. Of course it's fully impossible to assume that maybe the writers didn't plan out every frame of the show from day one.
> 
> Yes, Ben lies, I get it. It's not crazy to think he'd lie about knowing them. All I'm saying if this was all really planned there would have 100% been some kind of hint that if you went back and watched the episodes, you be like "wow they totally hinted at that"... There's nothing like that. It's so obvious that back then they had no idea that Ben knew these people all along.


Also, originally, I had read that the Ben character was NOT supposed to be a long term one, but they liked where it was going with Ben, so they kept him? I know Jack was orignially supposed to be killed off early as well. So if Ben wasn't originally supposed to stay, then some of the things he said early on wouldn't necessarily make sense in the context we know now.

Edit: Sorry, I realized I smeeked this.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> The mercenaries wouldn't have nailed boards to the windows after they trashed the place.
> 
> The way Dharmaville looked in general, the Dharma group photo and the numbers transmission still being on when 316 is crashing, all make me lean toward the idea that this is an alternate timeline.
> 
> But who knows, maybe the windows are boarded by someone after the mercenary attack; maybe this could all be explained by knowing precisely when the 316ers are...


Didn't they take some precautions before the mercenaries attacked? I thought they actually DID board up the windows.

Edit - Just checked the Lostpedia on "The Shape of Things to Come." Nevermind about them boarding up the place. They had time to blockade the doors with furniture, that's about it.



Fool Me Twice said:


> I'd go ahead and remove the spoiler tags. You're right, it's not a spoiler. It's the opposite of a spoiler. It's necessary information (at least for the kind of people who read threads like this).


Agreed. Everyone should read that spoiler. It directly addresses a continuity error that was brought up in previous threads.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> We might not have seen it in an episode, but one of the Losties should have. I doubt they would have ignored any of the buildings there. (And if one of the Losties had seen it, we would have seen it in an episode. )


Not to mention, if the Losties had seen a bunch of abandoned buildings, wouldn't it have made sense they use them for shelter? I'm just sayin'...


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

jradford said:


> ......Everyone should read that spoiler. It directly addresses a continuity error that was brought up in previous threads.


At my age (42), little errors like that go completely over my head. I have been in "just enjoy the ride" mode for a while. I never would have noticed that detail.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

MickeS said:


> Wow. If I was a writer on this show, trying to juggle details, dates and continuity, I'd be absolutely livid about that.


:up: +1 million

This upsets even me because I can see how how they're taking painstaking lengths to make sure everything works well together storywise. Nine years is a huge difference here.

They should have adopted the J. Michael Straczynski rule that NO dialogue should ever be changed on the set without his permission.

I'd redub the line for DVD.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Cindy1230 said:


> Do you have a link?


Actually, yes. My initial information came from the Chicago Tribune.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/07/lost-at-comic-c.html

And there's the video itself (from YouTube) plus zap2it's analysis of it if you want to read it.

http://blog.zap2it.com/lost/2008/07/lost-analyzing.html

What's intriguing to me is that Faraday is revealed in this video in addition to an off-screen call to a "LaFleur."

This was aired in July of 2008 at Comic-Con.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Also, originally, I had read that the Ben character was NOT supposed to be a long term one, but they liked where it was going with Ben, so they kept him?  I know Jack was orignially supposed to be killed off early as well. So if Ben wasn't originally supposed to stay, then some of the things he said early on wouldn't necessarily make sense in the context we know now.
> 
> Edit: Sorry, I realized I smeeked this.


What I read was, there was always going to be a big bad named Ben, but "Henry Gale" the prisoner wasn't always going to be Ben.


----------



## grant33 (Jun 11, 2003)

I've watched every episode of this show and I've read these boards a few times and read some other sites and talked to friends about it yet I still feel like I have no idea what's going on sometimes. Then I come here today and read about things from past episodes that I watched and I have no idea what people are referring to. I consider myself to be a fairly smart person with a decent memory, but this show just has so many layers and names and things to keep up with. I'm not totally lost (no pun intended), but I certainly don't feel like I'm getting everything out of the show that some people are getting and probably not everything the writers intend for me to get. I'm going to keep watching because I still enjoy it despite my confusion, but I hope that when the show is over I'll have that "a ha" moment. Also, if anyone can point me to a website with some Cliff's Notes version of what has happened so far that would be great.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I'm wondering if Danielle had met Sayid before as an Other (because he was pretending to be one, or he actually ended up becoming one). Perhaps that's why she had a hard time believing his story when she first captured him.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

I was just wondering, if Sun and her "30 years later" crew are in an alternate timeline, a timeline in which the hostiles never moved into the barracks, I wonder who built the runway?


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

jking said:


> I was just wondering, if Sun and her "30 years later" crew are in an alternate timeline, a timeline in which the hostiles never moved into the barracks, I wonder who built the runway?


IF they are in an alternate timeline, the answer could be the same for both timelines. The question, for alternate timeline theories, has to be: "When did the timelines split?"


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> I'm wondering if Danielle had met Sayid before as an Other (because he was pretending to be one, or he actually ended up becoming one). Perhaps that's why she had a hard time believing his story when she first captured him.


Good question. Although that would mean that Sayid spends at least another 10 or 12 years on the island going forward from 1977, or he time jumps again to the '90's at some point. I'm going to assume for now that she thought he was one of them simply because everyone she had seen on the island in the last 12 years or so was one of them.


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Wow. If I was a writer on this show, trying to juggle details, dates and continuity, I'd be absolutely livid about that.


That's the truth. I remember hearing an interview with Carlton and Damon waaaaay back in season 2. They discussed the season 1 scene with Charlie and others hiking over a mountain, where Dominic Monaghan ad-libs, talking about how he got his Drive Shaft ring on a specific tour.

Their response: ah, crap. But then they built that storyline into a season 2 flashback.

So yeah, they take dialogue pretty seriously!

Edit: On reflection, I wonder if ad-libbing is what leads to killing off characters, rather than drunk driving. Hm.....


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Yet the Orientation sign makes hash of the notion that they're still in "our" present, or any other possible time. That sign didn't exist when the Others controlled the village. So it can't be our timeline. And logically, given what they've established about "the rules," it can't be another timeline.
> 
> ...


Something this group can't or hasn't thought of yet? Ha! I accept your challenge! Jeff, get on this right away. I want daily reports. 



aindik said:


> Damon and Carlton revealed in the podcast that an inconsistency someone pointed out in an earlier thread here is actually an error and they're going on as if the error wasn't made. It's about Charlotte. I don't think this is a spoiler, but here I tagged it anyway since it contains behind the scenes stuff.


You'd think they could just go back in time and fix it ... oh wait ... damn.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I agree. They change the script on the set on some two-bit actress's request? Unacceptable. ESPECIALLY on a show like this.
> 
> That might explain why they killed her off


From their tone in the podcast, I'd bet a stern talking-to was given to whomever it was on-set that approved the dialogue change (I'm leaving the spoiler tags on my first post on this for now, but it seems we're OK discussing this without tagging it).

They said something like "yeah, it's not like we pay a lot of attention to dates on this show or anything. "

I'm pretty surprised nobody thought to run that by Damon and Carlton before doing it.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> But according to Faraday's rules, you can't, can you? None of these people can be killed in 1977, which brings up a question of what happens if you try. Gun jams, they duck...


I so don't like this terminology "you can't" when talking about things like why you, Sayid, "can't" kill young Ben.

If we were standing there outside the cell with Sayid and Ben, and we were talking about it openly, instead of saying "Sayid you _can't_ kill this boy", it'd be more appropriate to say "Sayid, apparently you decide NOT to kill this boy", because you already have evidence that he doesn't do it (you remember an older Ben).


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jking said:


> I was just wondering, if Sun and her "30 years later" crew are in an alternate timeline, a timeline in which the hostiles never moved into the barracks, I wonder who built the runway?


Somebody working harder than Sawyer and Kate, that's for sure. There is no way that runway in a jungle environment would have stayed that way for 3 years without maintenance. Vegetation would have come back, rain would have made a hash of it, you name it. Without using extreme amounts of an Agent Orange-like substance, that is.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

The greenery covering the outriggers was somewhat slow to decompose.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> From their tone in the podcast, I'd bet a stern talking-to was given to whomever it was on-set that approved the dialogue change (I'm leaving the spoiler tags on my first post on this for now, but it seems we're OK discussing this without tagging it).
> 
> They said something like "yeah, it's not like we pay a lot of attention to dates on this show or anything. "
> 
> I'm pretty surprised nobody thought to run that by Damon and Carlton before doing it.


I think the main problem lies in the fact that the entire writing staff is based in LA, while the show is shot in Hawaii. So scripts are finished and sent to Hawaii, and there generally is not a representative of the writing staff on set. They simply trust that the show will be shot according to the way it is written. Perhaps this gaffe got them to change the way they do things.



Delta13 said:


> Question for the class: how did Ben know there were 3 outriggers, and where they were?


Because he was the last one in control of that island. As Fool Me Twice says, the greenery covering the outriggers should have been more decayed, but the fact that Ben knew where they were should not be a surprise to anyone.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> I so don't like this terminology "you can't" when talking about things like why you, Sayid, "can't" kill young Ben.
> 
> If we were standing there outside the cell with Sayid and Ben, and we were talking about it openly, instead of saying "Sayid you _can't_ kill this boy", it'd be more appropriate to say "Sayid, apparently you decide NOT to kill this boy", because you already have evidence that he doesn't do it (you remember an older Ben).


This post made me think about something have noticed on my recent re-watch of the series from the beginning... a common theme has been many of the characters saying, almost word for word every time... "Don't tell me what I can't do!!!"


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

spikedavis said:


> Except the buildings weren't just destroyed-they were dusty and rotten and had boards on the windows. People had not lived there in sometime. Trust me-they were implying that it was different. Unless this was an entirely different set of barracks that the Others lived in.


The windows were boarded up leading up to the battle against Keamy, which took place in late 2004, three years earlier. After that the remaining losties (and possibly the surviving Others) became unstuck in time until Locke fixed the wheel. Who knows if anyone was left in the "present". Perhaps the buildings *have been* left untended for three years.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

wprager said:


> The windows were boarded up leading up to the battle against Keamy, which took place in late 2004, three years earlier. After that the remaining losties (and possibly the surviving Others) became unstuck in time until Locke fixed the wheel. Who knows if anyone was left in the "present". Perhaps the buildings *have been* left untended for three years.


That explains everything except Dharma photos on the walls and signs like "Orientation."


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

aindik said:


> That explains everything except Dharma photos on the walls and signs like "Orientation."


And why some buildings weren't rubble after being blown up by Keamy.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

aindik said:


> That explains everything except Dharma photos on the walls and signs like "Orientation."


Do we really know for a fact that that sign was taken down? Maybe we just weren't ever shown the correct angle to see it.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And why some buildings weren't rubble after being blown up by Keamy.


Maybe some of them were. They came at night and we really were not shown very much.

But, of course, this is Lost and I will gladly accept another explanation when the producers reveal it. Until then I'm OK.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Indeed.
> 
> I think they're up to something really clever that hasn't dawned on us yet.


I agree. Something is definitely off, but I don't think it's as simple as them just being in an alternate timeline. At least I hope not.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> Do we really know for a fact that that sign was taken down? Maybe we just weren't ever shown the correct angle to see it.


Maybe, but that would be cheating.


wprager said:


> Maybe some of them were. They came at night and we really were not shown very much.


Maybe, but that would be cheating.

And if there's one thing we've learned about Lost, it's that these people don't cheat!


----------



## Roommate (Apr 23, 2003)

I don't think I've seen this (long shot) possibility mentioned yet - maybe the building is an island manifestation, like the disappearing, reappearing cabin. It could explain the sign and overly rundown appearance, the pictures being there, the closeness to the dock (while the 77 Orientation building required being driven to the dock), even Christians "interactivity" (opening doors, picking up objects)... possibly even Claire-or-whoever in the background.

Just a thought.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

grant33 said:


> I've watched every episode of this show and I've read these boards a few times and read some other sites and talked to friends about it yet I still feel like I have no idea what's going on sometimes. Then I come here today and read about things from past episodes that I watched and I have no idea what people are referring to. I consider myself to be a fairly smart person with a decent memory, but this show just has so many layers and names and things to keep up with. I'm not totally lost (no pun intended), but I certainly don't feel like I'm getting everything out of the show that some people are getting and probably not everything the writers intend for me to get. I'm going to keep watching because I still enjoy it despite my confusion, but I hope that when the show is over I'll have that "a ha" moment. Also, if anyone can point me to a website with some Cliff's Notes version of what has happened so far that would be great.


Lostpedia is your friend.

http://www.lostpedia.comwww.lostpedia.com


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Maybe, but that would be cheating.
> 
> And if there's one thing we've learned about Lost, it's that these people don't cheat!


I agree that not showing the signs (or pictures) the entire time the Losties were there would be cheating, but to be fair about the second point, there's only been one scene so far involving the village in its present state.

My view is that "cheating" is when the camera ignores something that the characters would have still seen since they are not restricted to the camera angles. But in the second case, Sun and Frank had just gotten there, so they hadn't had much time to explore yet.

Now, if in the next episode it is daylight, and the camera pans across a good portion of the houses, and none of them are destroyed, but then it turns out the camera just happened to not show the ones that were, then I would agree that it would be cheating.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Roommate said:


> I don't think I've seen this (long shot) possibility mentioned yet - maybe the building is an island manifestation, like the disappearing, reappearing cabin. It could explain the sign and overly rundown appearance, the pictures being there, the closeness to the dock (while the 77 Orientation building required being driven to the dock), even Christians "interactivity" (opening doors, picking up objects)... possibly even Claire-or-whoever in the background.


I don't think it's a long shot at all. That was my general line of thinking when I was writing about the building being shown in an earlier state that it really was. This could be the island's way of communicating to Sun where (and when) her husband was, and what she needed to do. A picture is worth a thousand words, and perhaps the island decided this was better than having Christian babble on about time travel.

So far we have not seen any people representing the island touching anything that we knew for sure was not also part of the vision. The only thing from the island that we have seen physically interact with the environment has been the smoke monster. So Christian being able to pick up the picture could be an indication that the building was just as much a part of the island's projection as he was.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Roommate said:


> I don't think I've seen this (long shot) possibility mentioned yet - maybe the building is an island manifestation, like the disappearing, reappearing cabin. It could explain the sign and overly rundown appearance, the pictures being there, the closeness to the dock (while the 77 Orientation building required being driven to the dock), even Christians "interactivity" (opening doors, picking up objects)... possibly even Claire-or-whoever in the background.
> 
> Just a thought.


I think this makes more sense than any of the other things I've read. Not saying it's right, but I like it.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> I don't think it's a long shot at all. That was my general line of thinking when I was writing about the building being shown in an earlier state that it really was.


Except the buildings were never in that state. They went straight from being Dharma buildings to being Others buildings; they were never long-abandoned Dharma buildings. And that's why it would be cheating if it were just long-abandoned Dharma buildings that we've never seen before. The way they were presented, they were long-abandoned Dharma buildings, but we've seen a LOT of that village over the past few years, and we've never seen long-abandoned Dharma buildings.

The mystery is how can there be long-abandoned Dharma buildings where there weren't long-abandoned Dharma buildings before. The obvious answer is that this is an alternate present due to something being changed in the past, but that would be cheating too, since we've been told that can't happen. That's why I think something else is going on.

This being a cabin-like phantom building is an interesting theory. I'm not quite sure how that would play out in a satisfying way, but I can imagine it happening.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except the buildings were never in that state. They went straight from being Dharma buildings to being Others buildings; they were never long-abandoned Dharma buildings.


Do we know how soon the Others actually moved in after the Purge?



Rob Helmerichs said:


> And that's why it would be cheating if it were just long-abandoned Dharma buildings that we've never seen before. The way they were presented, they were long-abandoned Dharma buildings, but we've seen a LOT of that village over the past few years, and we've never seen long-abandoned Dharma buildings.


I wasn't saying this was a building that the Losties just ignored, or didn't see. I was saying that the island was showing the building as it used to look at some other point in time, a point in time that had a picture of Losties that could be shown to Sun.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> The obvious answer is that this is an alternate present due to something being changed in the past, but that would be cheating too, since we've been told that can't happen.


We were told this by someone who, at the time, had only studied time travel off of the island. (Well, other than the few minor tests we saw him do involving time discrepancies between the island and the ship.) I don't think it would be cheating if it turned out that he didn't know everything about how it worked.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> Do we know how soon the Others actually moved in after the Purge?


If it is not an alternate timeline and flight 316 crashed between the time that Purge occurred and the Others moved into Dharmaville; why is the numbers transmission playing?

It should be Danielle's distress call being played according to the dates we've been given - Danielle set up the her distress call in 1988 and the Purge happened in 1992.

Also, if we were to assume that they are in the original timeline, just three years after the mercenary attack; the numbers should not be playing, either. In fact, there should be no continuous transmission after the visit to the radio tower at the end of season 3.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I think we need a detailed map of the living quarters, orientation building and other Dharma buildings in the camp so we can see where they are in relation to the dock and each other.

I don't see why there couldn't be an sign called "Orientation" on one of the buildings. We know that the Others were recruiting from the mainland (Juliette for one) and using the same exact way of transporting newbies to the island. It really wouldn't explain the photos though. Unless they simply didn't bother to take them down and explained them away as "we don't wear the jumpsuits anymore."


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Peter000 said:


> I don't see why there couldn't be an sign called "Orientation" on one of the buildings. We know that the Others were recruiting from the mainland (Juliette for one) and using the same exact way of transporting newbies to the island. It really wouldn't explain the photos though. Unless they simply didn't bother to take them down and explained them away as "we don't wear the jumpsuits anymore."


Good point. There's no reason why the orientation signs should have been taken down. So other than the pictures being there, it could well be the same timeline, just three years of decay on building that have not been used. Now that I think about it, they might well have kept the pictures up on purpose, to give their little operation more validity, or history, for new recruits to see. When Locke's group went to Dharmaville to stay back in season 3-4, it seemed like they were only there for a couple of days, and a lot was going on at the time, so for them to not have had time to explore every inch of the compound would not be a stretch.

On the subject of Ethan and how he survived the Purge/became an Other, perhaps he was (will be) taken as a baby by the hostiles like how Alex was taken.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> If it is not an alternate timeline and flight 316 crashed between the time that Purge occurred and the Others moved into Dharmaville; why is the numbers transmission playing?
> 
> It should be Danielle's distress call being played according to the dates we've been given - Danielle set up the her distress call in 1988 and the Purge happened in 1992.
> 
> Also, if we were to assume that they are in the original timeline, just three years after the mercenary attack; the numbers should not be playing, either. In fact, there should be no continuous transmission after the visit to the radio tower at the end of season 3.


If this crash is in the 1990s, there should be no runway. It wasn't built until at least 2004.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> I so don't like this terminology "you can't" when talking about things like why you, Sayid, "can't" kill young Ben.
> 
> If we were standing there outside the cell with Sayid and Ben, and we were talking about it openly, instead of saying "Sayid you _can't_ kill this boy", it'd be more appropriate to say "Sayid, apparently you decide NOT to kill this boy", because you already have evidence that he doesn't do it (you remember an older Ben).


Hard to imagine that everyone around him will "decide not to kill Ben" for the next 30 years when Ben is such an appealing target. More likely that something supernatural is involved in his survival.  Or maybe they don't kill him because Daniel tells them that that approach won't work.



latrobe7 said:


> It should be Danielle's distress call being played according to the dates we've been given - Danielle set up the her distress call in 1988 and the Purge happened in 1992.


Are those the correct dates? So Ben adopted Alex before the Purge? And Danielle lived there as the Purge was happening yet seemed ignorant of both groups? Why wouldn't she have just walked into Dharmaville when she was shipwrecked? They probably would have offered her the same sub ride as they did Sawyer. Unless there was some dramatic change in the Dharma people at some point--like maybe after "the incident" causing them to act as crazy as Danielle's shipmates. 


Spoiler



From the podcast, the finale is called "The Incident"


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

In effect, LOST is continuing with its notable character backstory flash backs, however ironically these past stories _which had always happened _are only just now happening to the characters in their *personal timelines*. Quite a twist by the creative LOST writers.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

aindik said:


> If this crash is in the 1990s, there should be no runway. It wasn't built until at least 2004.


To further your point, we know that no matter what timeline they are in, Sun and Co are in 2007. When we went from Sun's group back to Sawyer's time, we saw "30 years earlier" and Sawyer then told Jack and Co that it was 1977.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> If it is not an alternate timeline and flight 316 crashed between the time that Purge occurred and the Others moved into Dharmaville; why is the numbers transmission playing?


I think the "Thirty Years Ago" makes it clear they crashed some time around 2007/2008. If the writers had wanted to leave the year ambiguous, they wouldn't have shown us that.



latrobe7 said:


> It should be Danielle's distress call being played according to the dates we've been given - Danielle set up the her distress call in 1988 and the Purge happened in 1992.
> 
> Also, if we were to assume that they are in the original timeline, just three years after the mercenary attack; the numbers should not be playing, either. In fact, there should be no continuous transmission after the visit to the radio tower at the end of season 3.


I wonder if the smoke monster is made up of "anti-events". What if the reason they think time is fixed is because all other events have anti-events that cancel them out. Perhaps Daniel found a way to isolate the anti-events from their counterparts, thus allowing him to "create" events that were not part of the fixed timeline, effectively allowing him to change what happened.

What if the smoke monster was not merely a force of random destruction, but a force drawn to annilihating events that should not have occurred. Maybe the smoke monster did not destroy the village, but undid things that happened to it.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Are those the correct dates?


Those are the dates we have been given in the show.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> I think the "Thirty Years Ago" makes it clear they crashed some time around 2007/2008. If the writers had wanted to leave the year ambiguous, they wouldn't have shown us that.


That is true. I am getting convinced of the alternate timeline theory.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> We were told this by someone who, at the time, had only studied time travel off of the island. (Well, other than the few minor tests we saw him do involving time discrepancies between the island and the ship.) I don't think it would be cheating if it turned out that he didn't know everything about how it worked.


From a storytelling perspective, it would be cheating for him to be wrong because of the way it has been presented.

It looks like they'll be addressing the issue directly. The title of the 4/1/09 episode:


Spoiler



Whatever Happened, Happened


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> From a storytelling perspective, it would be cheating for him to be wrong because of the way it has been presented.
> 
> It looks like they'll be addressing the issue directly. The title of the 4/1/09 episode:
> 
> ...


Well-let's also keep in the mind that this "rule" was effectively broken by Faraday immediately. He said we can't interfere with the past-and then tried it, by speaking to Desmond in the Swan Station. Next scene-WHAM! Future Desmond all of a sudden has a new memory in his head.

Faraday is telling the other people that they can't change anything to keep the space time continuum safe, but it's pretty clear that you can change things.

The analogy I see to Frank, Sun, Locke and Ben in this "new 2007" is like in Back to the Future II when Marty arrives in an 1985 that is ruled by Biff. We know something happened in the past to change this-and now we will see in a future episode that something will happen in 1977 to completely change the future-I imagine it's something like everyone on the island-Dharma and Others-are killed and the island is barren-hence the abandonened, dusty Otherton in "New 2007"

I love time travel stories. 

EDIT:

Just realized something-The Swan Station was built before "The Incident"....so I'm sure something paradox related is tied to The Incident. I was right about Eloise Hawking being Daniel's mom, I was right about Amy being Ethan's mom-so I think I'm in sync with the writers.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

spikedavis said:


> Well-let's also keep in the mind that this "rule" was effectively broken by Faraday immediately. He said we can't interfere with the past-and then tried it, by speaking to Desmond in the Swan Station. Next scene-WHAM! Future Desmond all of a sudden has a new memory in his head.


I think that was one of the most widely misinterpreted scenes in Lost history (and that's saying something!). But your interpretation makes no sense. You're saying that in the past, Desmond acquired a new memory, and somehow that memory teleported into the future, only appearing in his mind when he was with Penny in the present. But of course, that's absurd. Faraday always told him that; he just didn't remember it until much later. At the time, it meant nothing to him; then, he spent several years slowly going crazy alone in the Hatch; then, a lot of crap happened. It just never came back to him. Then, suddenly, one night he's lying there and he remembers that weird little conversation he had many years prior.

To say that the memory suddenly appeared in the present doesn't make sense. Why would it choose that exact moment to appear? I think the only reason people jumped to the conclusion that it did was because of the way it was filmed...first we saw him having the experience, then we saw him remembering it. But it wasn't cause and effect; it was just a long-submerged memory that finally emerged.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> From a storytelling perspective, it would be cheating for him to be wrong because of the way it has been presented.


Sorry, but I just don't see how we as viewers were supposed to think Daniel, who had never been on the island before, somehow knew how everything worked. Particularly since, as spikedavis mentioned, right after telling them that nothing could be changed, he pulled out his notebook, and wondered if Desmond might be an exception to that rule. The fact that he didn't know how the exceptions worked clearly indicated that there was more to be learned.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> It looks like they'll be addressing the issue directly. The title of the 4/1/09 episode:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I wonder how pissed off people would be if they ended that episode with someone waking up and saying, "Man, I had the strangest dream last night."


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think that was one of the most widely misinterpreted scenes in Lost history (and that's saying something!). But your interpretation makes no sense. You're saying that in the past, Desmond acquired a new memory, and somehow that memory teleported into the future, only appearing in his mind when he was with Penny in the present. But of course, that's absurd. Faraday always told him that; he just didn't remember it until much later. At the time, it meant nothing to him; then, he spent several years slowly going crazy alone in the Hatch; then, a lot of crap happened. It just never came back to him. Then, suddenly, one night he's lying there and he remembers that weird little conversation he had many years prior.


So, what do you presume happened after the conversation (i.e., after the scene ended with them staring at each other)? Desmond just said "ok" and walked back into the hatch? He didn't ask Farraday anything, like how the hell he can survive outside without a hazmat suit on?

Didn't he not figure out until much later (from Inman?) that the Hazmat suit thing was BS?


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think that was one of the most widely misinterpreted scenes in Lost history (and that's saying something!). But your interpretation makes no sense. You're saying that in the past, Desmond acquired a new memory, and somehow that memory teleported into the future, only appearing in his mind when he was with Penny in the present. But of course, that's absurd. Faraday always told him that; he just didn't remember it until much later. At the time, it meant nothing to him; then, he spent several years slowly going crazy alone in the Hatch; then, a lot of crap happened. It just never came back to him. Then, suddenly, one night he's lying there and he remembers that weird little conversation he had many years prior.


I agree with you here. So far we haven't seen anyone do anything that can definitely be said to have been changing events.

But the fact that Daniel wondered if Desmond could be an exception means that whatever Daniel knew, he believed that he didn't fully understand time travel. All of his experiments so far might have shown that events could not be changed, but for some reason he thought that there could be exceptions.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

aindik said:


> So, what do you presume happened after the conversation (i.e., after the scene ended with them staring at each other)? Desmond just said "ok" and walked back into the hatch? He didn't ask Farraday anything, like how the hell he can survive outside without a hazmat suit on?


Did he think that he would die without the hazmat suit, or that he would go insane? I thought it was the latter. He probably wrote off Faraday's comments as the rantings of a mad man.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think that was one of the most widely misinterpreted scenes in Lost history (and that's saying something!). But your interpretation makes no sense. You're saying that in the past, Desmond acquired a new memory, and somehow that memory teleported into the future, only appearing in his mind when he was with Penny in the present. But of course, that's absurd. Faraday always told him that; he just didn't remember it until much later. At the time, it meant nothing to him; then, he spent several years slowly going crazy alone in the Hatch; then, a lot of crap happened. It just never came back to him. Then, suddenly, one night he's lying there and he remembers that weird little conversation he had many years prior.
> 
> To say that the memory suddenly appeared in the present doesn't make sense. Why would it choose that exact moment to appear? I think the only reason people jumped to the conclusion that it did was because of the way it was filmed...first we saw him having the experience, then we saw him remembering it. But it wasn't cause and effect; it was just a long-submerged memory that finally emerged.


This is how I interpreted it when we saw the scene. I never thought Daniel changed the past or the future by doing this. He was hoping at some point Desmond would remember this particular moment.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think that was one of the most widely misinterpreted scenes in Lost history (and that's saying something!). But your interpretation makes no sense. You're saying that in the past, Desmond acquired a new memory, and somehow that memory teleported into the future, only appearing in his mind when he was with Penny in the present. But of course, that's absurd. Faraday always told him that; he just didn't remember it until much later. At the time, it meant nothing to him; then, he spent several years slowly going crazy alone in the Hatch; then, a lot of crap happened. It just never came back to him. Then, suddenly, one night he's lying there and he remembers that weird little conversation he had many years prior.
> 
> To say that the memory suddenly appeared in the present doesn't make sense. Why would it choose that exact moment to appear? I think the only reason people jumped to the conclusion that it did was because of the way it was filmed...first we saw him having the experience, then we saw him remembering it. But it wasn't cause and effect; it was just a long-submerged memory that finally emerged.


I saw it the same way when I viewed that scene. Occam's Razor says that the simplest, least complicated explanation is most likely so. In that case the well known fallibility of human memory provides the right answer. Desmond finally "remembered" as he woke up. That's how the writers portrayed the scene. That's how I take it.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I wondered why Radzinsky was so concerned that a hostile might have seen the model of the Swan, and the map to where it was to be. Wasn't the Swan inside Dharma territory? Was that why they told them they couldn't go outside--it was in hostile territory? I have no idea how they could build it there without the Others knowing. 

Did we ever know who made the original recording of the numbers that Danielle said they heard from her ship? Why would Dharma or the Others broadcast the numbers? Maybe it's Smokey pulling in some people?

Ben whipped off that sling like he expected to be healed as soon as he hit the island. It didn't protect him from Sun's whack, tho. 

Jack expected to go back to the island somehow, yet he wears a suit? And no one but Hurley seemed to have a bag. And he left his guitar case and bag in Sawyer's van. You'd think recruits would come with luggage. At least Juliet and James can give Jack and Kate half their clothes--good thing Hurley brought his own. If he did...


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> I saw it the same way when I viewed that scene. Occam's Razor says that the simplest, least complicated explanation is most likely so. In that case the well known fallibility of human memory provides the right answer. Desmond finally "remembered" as he woke up. That's how the writers portrayed the scene. That's how I take it.


I totally disagree. The entire STRUCTURE of that scene was meant to question if things were set in stone. Faraday gave it a shot, spoke with Desmond-THE VERY NEXT SCENE WE SEE is Desmond waking up with a memory that he described as having never been there before. Penny writes it off as a dream-but Desmond clearly states he's never remembered it until now. EVEN THOUGH he has had plenty of run ins with Faraday prior to this. If you were alone in a bunker for 3 years and one day out of the blue and strange looking man in a tie appears knocking at your door and has a bizzare conversation with you-and then you meet him later-you wouldn't remember that?


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

spikedavis said:


> I totally disagree. The entire STRUCTURE of that scene was meant to question if things were set in stone. Faraday gave it a shot, spoke with Desmond-THE VERY NEXT SCENE WE SEE is Desmond waking up with a memory that he described as having never been there before. Penny writes it off as a dream-but Desmond clearly states he's never remembered it until now. EVEN THOUGH he has had plenty of run ins with Faraday prior to this. If you were alone in a bunker for 3 years and one day out of the blue and strange looking man in a tie appears knocking at your door and has a bizzare conversation with you-and then you meet him later-you wouldn't remember that?


Further evidence that it was "one of the most widely misinterpreted scenes in LOST history". But by whom is the question.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

spikedavis said:


> I totally disagree. The entire STRUCTURE of that scene was meant to question if things were set in stone. Faraday gave it a shot, spoke with Desmond-THE VERY NEXT SCENE WE SEE is Desmond waking up with a memory that he described as having never been there before. Penny writes it off as a dream-but Desmond clearly states he's never remembered it until now. EVEN THOUGH he has had plenty of run ins with Faraday prior to this. If you were alone in a bunker for 3 years and one day out of the blue and strange looking man in a tie appears knocking at your door and has a bizzare conversation with you-and then you meet him later-you wouldn't remember that?


So how would that work? How would he not remember all those years? And why would he suddenly remember at that exact moment?


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So how would that work? How would he not remember all those years? And why would he suddenly remember at that exact moment?


Because Faraday just interfered with history and changed Desmond's timeline. I'm also going to assume that MORE interference is coming-since I'm still standing behind my alternate future/timeline theory because of the abandoned New Otherton.

If you're asking me if time travel is actual possible or that I believe IRL you can change the past then, no of course not-but if you're asking me if the writers are telegraphing that these are the rules in the Lost universe, then yes absolutely that's how I interpreted that scene. I think that's just the first of many times Faraday is going to change things.

We didn't see years of New Otherton being abandoned-we simply saw it in 2007 as abandoned AFTER we saw the characters travel back to that spot 30 years ago. Just as we didn't see years of Desmond remembering Faraday-we only saw the scene of the memory "awakening" in him once the past had been changed.

Trust me-they're not going to do a time travel story without playing around with screwing with the events of the past.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

spikedavis - your interpretation is logicly consistent and makes sense. So does the counterpoint. Welcome to LOST!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

spikedavis said:


> Because Faraday just interfered with history and changed Desmond's timeline.


But how did Desmond's timeline change? You're saying that meeting Faraday was such a memorable event that he must have remembered it...but you're also saying he didn't remember it! It makes no sense.

My current thinking on all this, after thinking about it a lot and going through this thread and thinking about it some more, is that Faraday is right. In general, what happened, happened, and it can't be changed. But something happened...some big thing, let's call it...oh, I don't know...an Incident. And as a result, the universe was damaged. The Dharma Initiative attempted to at least contain the damage through the Hatch; as long as the button got pushed every 108 minutes, things wouldn't get worse. But of course the day came when the button didn't get pushed, and things got worse. Time started to loosen up...especially around Desmond, who was at the epicenter of the Event (when the Hatch blew; not to be confused with the Incident). And things started to spiral out of control.

Fortunately, there is a great hero dedicated to setting the universe aright and fixing the damage that has been done. Unfortunately, for some reason people don't always recognize Ben's heroic qualities, which gets in the way of his tireless efforts to do good. And other things happen which also somehow worsen the damage, such as the Oceanic Six leaving the Island.

Somehow, the damage to the universe was also amplified by moving the Island, and more people became unstuck in time. Finally, some confluence of events combined to shatter reality completely, resulting in the empty Island that Lapidus and Sun find themselves on.

And the rest of the series will be Ben's heroic efforts to overcome the petty prejudices of those around him, and get them to work together for the greater good, fixing the universe and setting it back on the One True Course from which it was wrenched so terribly because people just didn't listen to Ben enough.

Or something like that. Or not.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

I don't think I'd like a LOST where Ben really is "the good guys."


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

aindik said:


> I don't think I'd like a LOST where Ben really is "the good guys."


Well, good in the sense that he's the one trying to fix the universe. Which is basically a good thing.

But his methods kinda suck.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Nobody thinks it's a bit unrealistic that, in 1977, three people refused to take drugs?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Talk about your alternate time lines!


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

spikedavis said:


> Because Faraday just interfered with history and changed Desmond's timeline.


But "just interfered" was only from our perspective as viewers. From Faraday's point of view, he talked to Desmond shortly after the island was moved. From Desmond's point of view, it was 3 years later. The only way "just interfered" makes sense within the show is if Desmond had done the mind swap thing with his past self, and Faraday was actually telling future Desmond the information. But then we don't know why Desmond didn't recognize Faraday, unless he was in some kind of dreamlike state where he was confused.

I wonder if we will ever learn what happened to Desmond's past self that went to visit Faraday at the university. Did future Desmond remember that time period as being a blackout? Did future Desmond remember jumping forward in time when he was his past self? If future Desmond didn't experience the events that he did to his past self, that would mean he had changed things. Perhaps the answer to what happened during Faraday's encounter with Desmond this season lies in the answer to what happened during Desmond's encounter with Faraday last season.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

wprager said:


> Nobody thinks it's a bit unrealistic that, in 1977, three people refused to take drugs?


Take some of this stuff, and you can go to a magical island!


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

All I'm saying at this point is that the "Whatever Happened, Happened" episode can't get here fast enough...it's either gonna prove the Faraday purists right, or turn that whole thing upside down (which is what I'm hoping). I'm looking forward to this more then I looked forward to The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham (and hoping this isn't a full on let down like that was). 

I agree with various posters that people are WAY to literal and trusting of Daniel's rules--they're relying on those lines of dialogue as if it's 100% accurate truth. You have to think of it from a character perspective, and the reality is that Daniel could simply be mistaken. His "rules" are based on conjecture and theory--he's never (consciously) experienced that exact type of time travel *on the island* so I don't get why it's so hard to imagine that he was mistaken in some way. 

I think right now, there is evidence to support both theories: Widmore and Richard both remember Locke from his visit to 1954, which follows the idea that "it always happened". But now you also have Flight 316 landing in 2007 (confirmed by 30 Years Earlier), but hearing a transmision that hasn't played for nearly 20 years, and finding the Dharma barracks looking as if it had been abandoned after Dharma fell (this is still debatable at this point). 

Anyway I think that episode will clear a lot of things up. I have renewed faith that my original theories might not have been totally wrong.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

I for one hope Daniel's theories do end up being correct and that things can't be changed. Or at the very least the writers give us something more mind blowing than the age old "alternate timelines" method of telling time travel stories.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I just wanted to take this opportunity, at 11:30ish on Friday night, to say how incredibly good a show Lost is. No particular reason - nope. Awesome show.. Can't wait for Wednesday.


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## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

wprager said:


> Nobody thinks it's a bit unrealistic that, in 1977, three people refused to take drugs?


I lived in 1977 and never took drugs. At leaast I don't remember taking them. I do remember the vivd colors and the smell of the music and the epiphany when I realized I could drive anywhere in the lower peninsula of Michigan by using the road map in palm of my right hand but I ... huh? Was I saying something man? Who are you! Stop staring at me like that! Narc! Flush 'em, man, Narc!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jking said:


> I for one hope Daniel's theories do end up being correct and that things can't be changed. Or at the very least the writers give us something more mind blowing than the age old "alternate timelines" method of telling time travel stories.


:up:


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

wprager said:


> Nobody thinks it's a bit unrealistic that, in 1977, three people refused to take drugs?


Frakin Hilarious man!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> I just wanted to take this opportunity, at 11:30ish on Friday night, to say how incredibly good a show Lost is. No particular reason - nope. Awesome show.. Can't wait for Wednesday.


I have a feeling that years from now, in TV School they'll have seminars where they show all of this show and all of that other show as a how to do it, how not to do it exercise. And the students will learn more than they ever had before, and more than they ever will again.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> I just wanted to take this opportunity, at 11:30ish on Friday night, to say how incredibly good a show Lost is. No particular reason - nope. Awesome show.. Can't wait for Wednesday.


:up: :up: :up: +100000 I concur.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

philw1776 said:


> Occam's Razor says that the simplest, least complicated explanation is most likely so.


You're applying Occam's Razor... to... Lost?

Really?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But how did Desmond's timeline change? You're saying that meeting Faraday was such a memorable event that he must have remembered it...but you're also saying he didn't remember it! It makes no sense.


I think what he's saying is that Desmond might be, as Faraday pointed out, "different".

Maybe there are no alternate timelines... except for Desmond and others like him. Maybe there were two parallel timelines and Desmond can move between them - before Faraday spoke to Desmond, the timelines were identical. Once Faraday talked to him, that event "jumped" over to Desmond's timeline...

Really it's all speculation, but that's a way to reconcile the two concepts of both alternate timelines, and one single timeline. And would also explain why Desmond remembered it at THAT point - it was the same moment he was told about it by Faraday in the other timeline.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> I just wanted to take this opportunity, at 11:30ish on Friday night, to say how incredibly good a show Lost is. No particular reason - nope. Awesome show.. Can't wait for Wednesday.


On the same page with you, man, on the same page.

Greg


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

jking said:


> I for one hope Daniel's theories do end up being correct and that things can't be changed. Or at the very least the writers give us something more mind blowing than the age old "alternate timelines" method of telling time travel stories.


:up: here too. We're hoping this because it'll be a far better, more interesting, more intriguing, more original story if The Faraday Postulate ends up true (or at least 99.9% true) than if it gets diluted and melts away. (Heck, last week I wrote a blog post on that very topic... though maybe I'll have to amend it in light of the pictures-on-the-wall scene, which happened after I wrote that post.)


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> I just wanted to take this opportunity, at 11:30ish on Friday night, to say how incredibly good a show Lost is. No particular reason - nope. Awesome show.. Can't wait for Wednesday.


You're saying that now because you just finished watching RDM's ending to Battlestar Galactica and the contrast in plot logic, continuity and character development is humungous.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> My current thinking on all this, after thinking about it a lot and going through this thread and thinking about it some more, is that Faraday is right. In general, what happened, happened, and it can't be changed. But something happened...some big thing, let's call it...oh, I don't know...an Incident. And as a result, the universe was damaged. The Dharma Initiative attempted to at least contain the damage through the Hatch; as long as the button got pushed every 108 minutes, things wouldn't get worse. But of course the day came when the button didn't get pushed, and things got worse. Time started to loosen up...especially around Desmond, who was at the epicenter of the Event (when the Hatch blew; not to be confused with the Incident). And things started to spiral out of control.


Not sure I agree with your theory of Ben being the hero in all of this, but in regards to the above part, I do think the button not being pushed is what set into motion the things that we are seeing now. Perhaps pushing the button was preventing the universe from doing the course correcting it needed (Walt said not to push the button after all, that it was bad), and everything that has happened since has been because the universe is now free to do its thing. Or perhaps not pushing the button is what set things on the wrong path and the universe has since been trying to fix that mistake. At any rate, I think we are in the middle of one big "course correction" that has been going on since the end of season 2.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> You're saying that now because you just finished watching RDM's ending to Battlestar Galactica and the contrast in plot logic, continuity and character development is humungous.


I just wanted to tell you both, good luck, we're all counting on you.

Greg


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

gchance said:


> I just wanted to tell you both, good luck, we're all counting on you.
> 
> Greg


Surely you can't be serious?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

The best thing the producers did is decide to end the show. By knowing there was a specific end date in sight, they were able to sit down and construct a story knowing how it would end.

Otherwise, the show would have just wandered aimlessly, making it up as they go along, until it is eventually cancelled, like Twin Peaks, and what is going to happen to Heroes.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Why didn't Ben jump back in time? Maybe because a younger version of him was already on the island and that would have caused a rip in the space time continuum. 

So why didn't Sun jump back in time? Crackpot theory. See above. What's the name of Marvin Candle/Pierre Chang's baby?


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Surely you can't be serious?


Over Macho Grande?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

SeanC said:


> Over Macho Grande?


I've never gotten over Macho Grande.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> The best thing the producers did is decide to end the show. By knowing there was a specific end date in sight, they were able to sit down and construct a story knowing how it would end.
> 
> Otherwise, the show would have just wandered aimlessly, making it up as they go along, until it is eventually cancelled, like Twin Peaks, and what is going to happen to Heroes.


Agh, I just flushed BSG out of my bowels and you had to go and remind me about another aimless show which I'll probably suffer through the rest of, rather than quit like I should.

F*ck BSG, f*ck Heroes, long live Lost!

Loving the journey..


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Surely you can't be serious?


And stop calling me Shirley.


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## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

One thing I noticed that I haven't seen discussed (I read all 277 posts, but maybe I missed it) was the ease with which Ben took off his arm off the sling.

Did the island heal his injuries or was he faking them all along? I hope they have a flashback to what happened before he got on the plane in LA. I want to see how he got all beat up.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

verdugan said:


> One thing I noticed that I haven't seen discussed (I read all 277 posts, but maybe I missed it) was the ease with which Ben took off his arm off the sling.
> 
> Did the island heal his injuries or was he faking them all along? I hope they have a flashback to what happened before he got on the plane in LA. I want to see how he got all beat up.


You missed it. 



stellie93 said:


> Ben whipped off that sling like he expected to be healed as soon as he hit the island. It didn't protect him from Sun's whack, tho.


Greg


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> Why didn't Ben jump back in time? Maybe because a younger version of him was already on the island and that would have caused a rip in the space time continuum.


Sawyer, Locke, et al jumped to a time on the island when younger versions of themselves were on it--when Sawyer saw Claire giving birth and Locke saw the light beam from the hatch.



> So why didn't Sun jump back in time? Crackpot theory. See above. What's the name of Marvin Candle/Pierre Chang's baby?


Chang refers to the baby as "him" in the Comic Con video.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jking said:


> Not sure I agree with your theory of Ben being the hero in all of this, but in regards to the above part, I do think the button not being pushed is what set into motion the things that we are seeing now. Perhaps pushing the button was preventing the universe from doing the course correcting it needed (Walt said not to push the button after all, that it was bad), and everything that has happened since has been because the universe is now free to do its thing. Or perhaps not pushing the button is what set things on the wrong path and the universe has since been trying to fix that mistake. At any rate, I think we are in the middle of one big "course correction" that has been going on since the end of season 2.


I think The Incident is what screwed up the universe, and the button was a workaround, not a real solution. Incident=bad; Hatch explosion=worse, but at least opened up the possibility of a real solution.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> The best thing the producers did is decide to end the show. By knowing there was a specific end date in sight, they were able to sit down and construct a story knowing how it would end.


Minor point--they always had the broad outline of the story, including the ending, in mind. And they always wanted it to be a five-year series.


Turtleboy said:


> Otherwise, the show would have just wandered aimlessly, making it up as they go along, until it is eventually cancelled, like Twin Peaks, and what is going to happen to Heroes.


Yes. Had the network not given them their firm end-date, they would not have been able to stick to the plan, and would have had to find ways to drag it out. This is much better.

Heroes, I think, has at least some hope. What screwed them up was abandoning the original, mostly-unrelated seasons plan (at the last minute in Season 1). And they've been fumbling along ever since. But now they've got fresh blood on board (well, actually old blood, but he was involved in the good stuff and not in the bad), and they have the opportunity to retool the show for a longer run. Every show doesn't have to have a single story with beginning, middle, and end; there are any number of ways to structure a show so it can go on indefinitely. Whether or not they pull it off, of course, is an open question, but I'mm willing to give them the chance.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Jacob hates technology. Hated John's flashlight. Christian used a flashlight. Christian isn't Jacob.

Right?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Jacob hates technology. Hated John's flashlight. Christian used a flashlight. Christian isn't Jacob.
> 
> Right?


He even _said_ he wasn't Jacob - just that he could speak for him


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Oh. Forgot that, I guess.

Anyway, speaking of technology, the woman behind Sun has always looked to me to be sitting behind a computer monitor. Which is weird. So I went looking for a clearer picture.
http://forum.lostpedia.com/showthread.php?t=31211&page=20









Weird. Just doesn't feel like anything but a mistake to me.

Here's the scene again:


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## El Gabito (Mar 11, 2004)

The more I see it - the more it seems like a mistake. Hopefully they will speak out on it.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Why didn't Ben jump back in time? Maybe because a younger version of him was already on the island and that would have caused a rip in the space time continuum.
> 
> So why didn't Sun jump back in time? Crackpot theory. See above. What's the name of Marvin Candle/Pierre Chang's baby?


While I get the whole idea of ripping a new one in the space time continuum, we really should be able to put this theory to bed by now. S-T wouldn't care if a future and past version of yourself were on the island at the same time. Nothing in physics says you can't. Fool Me Twice has already covered this, but we have plenty of examples of people living on the island at the same time their older/younger self exists. During the 1974-1977 period Sawyer, Juliet, and Jin existed at the same time their earlier self did. Later, so did Jack, Kate, Sayid and Hurley. We even have several examples of someone being on the island at the same time as a different version of themselves.

The time flashes proved that. The white light scene from the Swan, the Claire birth episode, the Ajira Water Bottle Outrigger Chase Scene all prove that you can co-exist with a time version of yourself - even on the island. If it were impossible to do so, then the flashes would have always gone to 1954, or 4 Toed Statue Time, and could never have shown us anything during the 108 days the Losties were there.

No, the best theory why is still dramatic development or literary license. Of all the major characters, who hadn't ever been to the Barracks? If you guessed Sun and Frank congratulations. Who wouldn't know if anything had changed, was odd, or was out of place? Bingo again. I think that's part of the reason Ben didn't make the trip. Plus, now he's the wolf among the Flight 316 sheep. (More chances at Ben's Shop O' Mindgames.) Plus, we still have the Locke-Ben confrontation upcoming.

Of course, the other theory is that Ben and Locke can never go back to the main island since they left via FDW. This seems a bit arbitrary to me, but I suppose it's possible. It would also help answer why Widmore didn't try and go back on the freighter.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

El Gabito said:


> The more I see it - the more it seems like a mistake. Hopefully they will speak out on it.


Unless she's wearing a Geronimo Jackson t-shirt, somebody's got some 'splaining to do back in Hawaii.


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> When are Bernard and Rose?


I assume they are dead with everyone else from when the rain of fire arrows fell on the remaining group. But you never know when someone will pop up again on Lost.


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## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

gchance said:


> You missed it.
> 
> Greg


D'oh. I tried so hard to smeek. 


Sorry stellie93.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Delta13 said:


> S-T wouldn't care if a future and past version of yourself were on the island at the same time.


Well, from the Orchid Video, we know that something bad might happen if those versions touch. (Or at least we know that the scientists think something might happen.) Maybe those versions are "allowed" to be near each other, but the closer they get and the longer they stay near, the more temporally disruptive they are.

I agree that I don't think that has anything to do with Sun not jumping back, however.



Delta13 said:


> No, the best theory why is still dramatic development or literary license.


I don't think they would have had Sun stay behind "just 'cause". Even if they had started with wanting Sun to stay behind, I'm sure they would have come up with a good explanation for it.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Johnny Dancing said:


> I assume they are dead with everyone else from when the rain of fire arrows fell on the remaining group. But you never know when someone will pop up again on Lost.


Potential Spoiler from Podcast:


Spoiler



I believe Daemon & Carlton have said that Rose & Benard are still alive (and possibly other original survivors.) However where they are is still open.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I'm not writing off the theory of Sun having some previous connection to the Island. Especially since we know that Mr. Pak and Charles Widmore have done business together.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> When are Bernard and Rose?





Johnny Dancing said:


> I assume they are dead with everyone else from when the rain of fire arrows fell on the remaining group. But you never know when someone will pop up again on Lost.





Spoiler



It doesn't need to be spoilered *(since amended),* but Damon and Carlton are very aware of the love the audience has for Rose and Bernard, and have been clear they respect it, and have always said they're off doing something else when we don't see them on screen.



I can't see them changing that, and if R&B are to eventually go, I suspect we'll know.

Diane


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> It doesn't need to be spoilered, but Damon and Carlton are very aware of the love the audience has for Rose and Bernard, and have been clear they respect it, and have always said they're off doing something else when we don't see them on screen.
> 
> I can't see them changing that, and if R&B are to eventually go, I suspect we'll know.
> 
> Diane


I'm sure they are off doing something else. But did they jump with everyone else? I assume they did. I would have liked to see a shot of them in Dharmaville, just sitting at a table in the background.


----------



## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

TriBruin said:


> Potential Spoiler from Podcast:


Question for anyone who watches the Podcasts .. is there a good RSS feed for them anywhere? Googling, all I can find is: http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/podcastRSS?feedPublishKey=3421 which comes up as empty ..

I want to use HME/VLC to stream them to the TiVo ... but I need a good link for them. Anyone have anything for me?

Thanks.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> I'm sure they are off doing something else. But did they jump with everyone else? I assume they did. I would have liked to see a shot of them in Dharmaville, just sitting at a table in the background.


Yeah, I expect Bernard and Rose to be back as well. They might be dead (I hope not!), but if they are, I think we will get an explanation at some point as to how that happened. If not in a flashback of their own, it will be shown in someone else's flashback. Otherwise, if they see fit to give the Nikki and Paolo story closure and not Rose and Bernard's, they might have a mutiny on their hands!


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> Well, from the Orchid Video, we know that something bad might happen if those versions touch. (Or at least we know that the scientists think something might happen.) Maybe those versions are "allowed" to be near each other, but the closer they get and the longer they stay near, the more temporally disruptive they are.
> 
> I agree that I don't think that has anything to do with Sun not jumping back, however.
> 
> I don't think they would have had Sun stay behind "just 'cause". Even if they had started with wanting Sun to stay behind, I'm sure they would have come up with a good explanation for it.


Hmm, I didn't remember Chang panicking quite like that. So it's like _Timecop_, eh?  It's probably like what you are saying, that Chang and Co. just had no idea what might happen. Those rabbits were pretty close to each other and nothing happened that we saw. And more on point, if having a version of yourself nearby prevented you from time traveling then Rabbit 15 would have *never* shown up right next to itself.

As for Sun, don't get me wrong. I'm not denigrating the writers here, I just think she (and Frank) have a different mission to undertake. Even though they already crossed the water, I can't quite shake a Charon-Crossing the River Styx vibe from them talking to Christian. However, that also means we have Ben and Locke left in the present, together with Caesar who is clearly interested in learning about the island. And we haven't seen Richard and crew in the present time period yet. Lots of juicy things to gnaw on - and none of it possible if everyone (or at least the main stars) had flashed to 1977.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Let me just say for the record, that if the LOST finale turns out to have Angels and the gods doing all the wicked neat stuff I may stop watching TV drama completely.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

For some reason I get the feeling that they're not going to explain the ultimate cause of the island's power. I think they're planning on leaving that a mystery. The island does what it does and always has. I think I'm remembering that from an interview--something they implied. It's possible I inferred a meaning that wasn't intended. Then of course, they lie.

Edit: first sentence should read "...NOT going to explain..."


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> It doesn't need to be spoilered, but Damon and Carlton are very aware of the love the audience has for Rose and Bernard,


I don't really understand the spoiler rules, I guess. I thought it was anything that comes from another source, like a podcast, was to be spoilered. In this thread there have been several times when people said it didn't. I don't care, I'm just confused.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I don't really understand the spoiler rules, I guess. I thought it was anything that comes from another source, like a podcast, was to be spoilered. In this thread there have been several times when people said it didn't. I don't care, I'm just confused.


stellie, you're right, and diane was wrong.

Previews, podcasts, actor comments, interviews etc technically should be spoilerized (and imho it's kinda rude for someone to post the contents of someone else's spoilerized text).


----------



## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

philw1776 said:


> Let me just say for the record, that if the LOST finale turns out to have Angels and the gods doing all the wicked neat stuff I may stop watching TV drama completely.


LMAO.

You owe me a new keyboard.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> stellie, you're right, and diane was wrong.
> 
> Previews, podcasts, actor comments, interviews etc technically should be spoilerized (and imho it's kinda rude for someone to post the contents of someone else's spoilerized text).


So noted, and respected..
I was trying my hardest to explain the love for the characters, within spoiler rules of discussions and not plot points. That's the problem in thinking with your emotions, not the brain.
(amended the post also)


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Johnny Dancing said:


> I assume they are dead with everyone else from when the rain of fire arrows fell on the remaining group. But you never know when someone will pop up again on Lost.


Sawyer did tell Horace that he wanted more time to look for his "crew", so maybe some of them got found while he was searching. Assuming all the survivors of the arrows ended up in 1974, the fact that Sawyer had to sneak Jack, Hurley, and Kate in would imply that anyone not part of the Dharma Initiative by 1977 was either killed or had taken shelter with the Others. (I suppose some of them might have gone away on the Dharma sub too.)


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> What's the name of Marvin Candle/Pierre Chang's baby?


My guess is Miles.
We know Marvin Candle/Pierre Chang/Edgar Halliwax loses his arm in the Purge. Dharma is an anagram of HAD ARM. Coincidence??


----------



## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

Since we're talking about *Miles*.....can someone enlighten me as to what his role is on the island? He's on pretty much every episode but does really nothing but walk around and complain.

When we first me him it was revealed he's a petty *ghostbuster* of some kind however he CAN see/hear ghosts....so why is he on the island and what has he done other than walk around a lot?

We've been watching since day one, but I don't recall an ep that lays out his true role.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Alfer said:


> Since we're talking about *Miles*.....can someone enlighten me as to what his role is on the island?


We don't yet know what his true role is.

Myself, I'm interested to see what happens (or doesn't) when he runs into Christian.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Jeeters said:


> We don't yet know what his true role is.
> 
> Myself, I'm interested to see what happens (or doesn't) when he runs into Christian.


..and we already saw interesting reactions from him w/regard to Claire, imo.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> ..and we already saw interesting reactions from him w/regard to Claire, imo.


Can you remind us of the reactions you referred to?


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

getreal said:


> Can you remind us of the reactions you referred to?


He kept checking on her or asking about her to Sawyer after the explosion that "nearly" killed her. Some, including myself, felt like his interest was linked to his ability to talk to dead people and could have been a sign that Claire was, in fact, dead. Some may have not thought this at all, but these are the reactions being referred to.


----------



## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

Alfer said:


> Since we're talking about *Miles*.....can someone enlighten me as to what his role is on the island? He's on pretty much every episode but does really nothing but walk around and complain.


His role on the island is to walk around and complain. Duh.

The actor is probably the same way. "My character has no arc. He doesn't develop at all. Can't I at least get a make-out scene with Evangeline Lilly?

"I didn't say that last part out loud, did I?"


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

aintnosin said:


> His role on the island is to walk around and complain. Duh.
> 
> The actor is probably the same way. "My character has no arc. He doesn't develop at all. Can't I at least get a make-out scene with Evangeline Lilly?
> 
> "I didn't say that last part out loud, did I?"


I'm not concerned at all about Miles' character. I think there is a 99% chance his character has a major arc that we are yet to see. I think we'll look back and see that quite a bit of groundwork was laid in setting up his role and significance to the island.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

I'm not worried either. First off, who's going to get those class pictures from 1977 on the Dharma wall correct? Miles will. Plus, he has to be Chang's son - he gripes just like him. There's bound to be a whole arc just in that. You know, talking to his dead dad, both of them complaining. It'll be great!


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Remember the age glitch that was blamed on Rebecca Mader changing the script? Apparently not so:

http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/03...clusive:+War+erupts+over+Charlotte's+real+age!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> Remember the age glitch that was blamed on Rebecca Mader changing the script? Apparently not so:
> 
> http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/03...clusive:+War+erupts+over+Charlotte's+real+age!


So it WAS her fault.

If the idiot hadn't gone and gotten herself born in 1979, this never would have happened!


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Ahhhh, Team Darlton take a page out of the Clemens book of language:



> We misremembered this as having come from Rebecca herself on the set...


LOL. Misremembered. LOL.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

> but in fact, it came several days earlier when *our continuity expert* Gregg Nations pointed it out and suggested using Rebecca's actual birthday for Charlotte.


So, the "continuity expert" didn't know during the filming of Season 4 that we'd see Charlotte at age 4 in 1974 in Season 5?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

aindik said:


> So, the "continuity expert" didn't know during the filming of Season 4 that we'd see Charlotte at age 4 in 1974 in Season 5?


The continuity guy is just responsible for making sure things stay the same from scene to scene...clothing, props, positioning, etc. He probably noticed that the character's age in Ben's dialogue was a lot older than the actor's age, and suggested changing the birthdate to Marder's. Obviously, nobody who was there realized that Charlotte's age was an important plot point.

As was pointed out earlier, the writers (who would be responsible for deciding what the character's age is and making sure all references in the script conform to it; in this case, they did their job) were across the ocean and thus not in a position to notice that the onset crew had "corrected" a correct fact.
It's a pretty understandable, if regrettable, mistake (perhaps critical facts should be identified as such in the script? But there's so much in a show like this to keep track of, and who would think they'd make a change like that?), but a fairly small one (I doubt the vast majority of viewers ever noticed). I think the big mistake was blowing the explanation and blaming poor Rebecca.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Interesting also that the article refers to D&C as Rebecca's "former Lost bosses." I guess her death is the last we see of grown-up Charlotte. (Is that a spoiler?).


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The continuity guy is just responsible for making sure things stay the same from scene to scene...clothing, props, positioning, etc. He probably noticed that the character's age in Ben's dialogue was a lot older than the actor's age, and suggested changing the birthdate to Marder's. Obviously, nobody who was there realized that Charlotte's age was an important plot point.
> 
> As was pointed out earlier, the writers (who would be responsible for deciding what the character's age is and making sure all references in the script conform to it; in this case, they did their job) were across the ocean and thus not in a position to notice that the onset crew had "corrected" a correct fact.
> It's a pretty understandable, if regrettable, mistake (perhaps critical facts should be identified as such in the script? But there's so much in a show like this to keep track of, and who would think they'd make a change like that?), but a fairly small one (I doubt the vast majority of viewers ever noticed). I think the big mistake was blowing the explanation and blaming poor Rebecca.


Silly continuity guy also forgot that the scene took place in 2004. If Rebecca is 28 in 2007 when they're filming the scene, and they want to make Charlotte 28 in 2004 when the scene takes place, they should have put her birthday in 1976. Not that that would have helped the plot, but it seems like "hey, let's stick her real birth date in there" wasn't thought out at all.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

aindik said:


> Interesting also that the article refers to D&C as Rebecca's "former Lost bosses." I guess her death is the last we see of grown-up Charlotte. (Is that a spoiler?).


I wouldn't read too much into that. There are lots of actors on this show who might have been referred to in that manner over the seasons... Michael, Ana Lucia, Libby, young Ben, etc... but they have all returned for at least a few episodes.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's a pretty understandable, if regrettable, mistake (perhaps critical facts should be identified as such in the script?


I would think it should be the other way around. They should assume all facts are critical unless otherwise noted. Even in a show not involving time travel, there can be specific history involved that needs to follow a certain timeline.

I can see how Gregg might have thought he was fixing things by making the character's age closer to the actor's, but I'm not sure why he wouldn't have asked about it first. Even without Charlotte being a part of the Dharma Initiative at a young age, some of her flashbacks might have needed to take place in certain years.

Eight years can mean the difference between being in college and being in grade school in a given year. In my opinion, the fact that the ages were so far apart should have made him more hesitant to change things, not the other way around.


----------



## wouldworker (Sep 7, 2004)

Fool Me Twice said:


> For some reason I get the feeling that they're not going to explain the ultimate cause of the island's power. I think they're planning on leaving that a mystery. The island does what it does and always has.


I agree. I think anyone who is looking for some sensible explanation of things like the smoke monster and how the time travel worked is going to be disappointed with the ending. The show is about the journey these characters are on. I expect that we'll see a resolution that explains why this group of people went on this journey, but we won't find out how a column of smoke can pull someone down a hole in the ground. It's not about the weird stuff - it's about the people. The weird stuff is just a bonus, but there's no way that they can wrap it all up in any way that makes sense. They completely abandoned plausibility after the first season (not that the events of the first season were very plausible either).


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

jking said:


> I wouldn't read too much into that. There are lots of actors on this show who might have been referred to in that manner over the seasons... Michael, Ana Lucia, Libby, young Ben, etc... but they have all returned for at least a few episodes.


Yeah, since she's not currently working for them, they are "former" until we see her on the show again. Otherwise you would have to wait until the end of the series, when you would know for certain that nobody would be brought back to the show, before you could say "former bosses" for any of the actors.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

wouldworker said:


> I agree. I think anyone who is looking for some sensible explanation of things like the smoke monster and how the time travel worked is going to be disappointed with the ending. The show is about the journey these characters are on. I expect that we'll see a resolution that explains why this group of people went on this journey, but we won't find out how a column of smoke can pull someone down a hole in the ground. *It's not about the weird stuff - it's about the people.* The weird stuff is just a bonus, but there's no way that they can wrap it all up in any way that makes sense. They completely abandoned plausibility after the first season (not that the events of the first season were very plausible either).


Ron... is that you?


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

wouldworker said:


> I agree. I think anyone who is looking for some sensible explanation of things like the smoke monster and how the time travel worked is going to be disappointed with the ending. The show is about the journey these characters are on. I expect that we'll see a resolution that explains why this group of people went on this journey, but we won't find out how a column of smoke can pull someone down a hole in the ground. It's not about the weird stuff - it's about the people. The weird stuff is just a bonus, but there's no way that they can wrap it all up in any way that makes sense. They completely abandoned plausibility after the first season (not that the events of the first season were very plausible either).


They might not have an explanation for exactly how all of the weird stuff works, but I am expecting them to explain what the weird stuff is. For example, what is the smoke monster doing there, and why is it doing what it is doing?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> I would think it should be the other way around. They should assume all facts are critical unless otherwise noted. Even in a show not involving time travel, there can be specific history involved that needs to follow a certain timeline.
> 
> I can see how Gregg might have thought he was fixing things by making the character's age closer to the actor's, but I'm not sure why he wouldn't have asked about it first. Even without Charlotte being a part of the Dharma Initiative at a young age, some of her flashbacks might have needed to take place in certain years.
> 
> Eight years can mean the difference between being in college and being in grade school in a given year. In my opinion, the fact that the ages were so far apart should have made him more hesitant to change things, not the other way around.


Perhaps they should have hired an actress who looks 37 to play a character who is supposed to be 37.

I don't know where this "37" is coming from, though. That scene took place in December of 2004. A person who was born in 1970 as the script read is 34 in 2004, not 37. Continuity guy should have thought of that.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> They might not have an explanation for exactly how all of the weird stuff works, but I am expecting them to explain what the weird stuff is. For example, what is the smoke monster doing there, and why is it doing what it is doing?


They have kind of explained that, although I will give you that it hasn't come from a reliable source yet... at least one person has said that the smoke monster is a security system and its primary mission is to protect the temple.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I have a timeline question for those of you who keep up with Lostpedia. Several months ago (the last time I looked at their timeline), there was a discrepancy with the date when the freighter blew up and the Island moved. There was the December 2004 page that said it happened at the end of December (Day 101), and the January 2005 page that said it happened on Day 108, which would have been several days after the new year. Now the January 2005 page doesn't exist anymore and it seems they've agreed that the boat blew up on Day 101. Does anyone have any idea how they reached this determination?


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> I have a timeline question for those of you who keep up with Lostpedia. Several months ago (the last time I looked at their timeline), there was a discrepancy with the date when the freighter blew up and the Island moved. There was the December 2004 page that said it happened at the end of December (Day 101), and the January 2005 page that said it happened on Day 108, which would have been several days after the new year. Now the January 2005 page doesn't exist anymore and it seems they've agreed that the boat blew up on Day 101. Does anyone have any idea how they reached this determination?


I don't follow lostpedia, but I think remember at the O6 news conference the Oceanic representative mentioned that they rowed onto the beach of wherever they ended up (can't remember the name of the place ...where the picture was taken) on day 108. Considering that it's possible they were on Penny's boat maybe a week formulating their story, day 101 seems reasonable.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

I was wondering how the "present" could be 2007 and not 2008, when they definitely didn't get back to the U.S. until 2005 and "three years" have passed. But I guess that they don't mean three years to the day. If they arrived in late January 2005, November of 2007 might be close enough to "three years" to say "three years."


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

aindik said:


> I was wondering how the "present" could be 2007 and not 2008, when they definitely didn't get back to the U.S. until 2005 and "three years" have passed. But I guess that they don't mean three years to the day. If they arrived in late January 2005, November of 2007 might be close enough to "three years" to say "three years."


I'll accept some rounding error there. At some point you just pick the nearest integer. I say my daughter is five, but she's 5 and 3 months.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Whoa.. WHOA.. Wait a second..

First of all, this was totally mentioned earlier in this or another thread, so I'm officially labeling this as a deliberate smeek, but I don't know that I fully appreciated this or gave it enough attention:

_While the 316 flight was landing, they heard the numbers being broadcast on the radio!!!_

Forget when the 815ers would have turned off the radio tower at the end of season 3, and whether that was 2007 or 2008 (and whether the plane was a bit before that, in earlier 2007 or something). Forget that.. ...because the numbers haven't been broadcast since 1988!!! Danielle turned off the numbers broadcast and turned on her own distress call!!

I was focusing on when 316 was, and since it was 30ish years after 1977 (at least on the small island), I figured 2007/2008, and the fact that the radio tower was on pushed it to 2007, so I figured that 316 wasn't on the right course and went a small amount back, to earlier in 2007 than the radio was turned off (but even there I wasn't thinking clearly, because it was turned off in 2005, not 2007). But it's the numbers being broadcast!

Possibilities:
1) (cringe) Something has actually changed, and Danielle never put her message on the tower. (I don't buy this without a hell of a good story/explanation)
2) Someone after 2005 goes back to the tower and turns on the original broadcast, of the numbers.
3) While flying in, 316 was temporarily sometime before 1988, then eventually landed in 2007.. (or, landed whenever, but Sun/Frank boating from island to island went across time somehow).

Damn, I don't remember exactly when in the show they said "30 years earlier" (although I do think they're showing people on different islands when they say that, which implies they're in the same time). I guess we just don't definitively know when Sun/Frank were standing with Christian because of possible boating/time events..

..but again, that's a tangent. One of the three possibilities above is happening. The numbers shouldn't be broadcast in 2007 from what we know yet!


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

If they're at some point before 2005, then there shouldn't be a runway.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> If they're at some point before 2005, then there shouldn't be a runway.


But if Dharmaville has been sitting abandoned for many years and has never been inhabited by the Others, who built the runway?


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Whoa.. WHOA.. Wait a second..
> 
> First of all, this was totally mentioned earlier in this or another thread, so I'm officially labeling this as a deliberate smeek, but I don't know that I fully appreciated this or gave it enough attention:
> 
> ...


Yep, pretty big smeek there. 

Like you, I am cringing at possibility #1. I do like your other ideas though, especially #3, but can't think of a good reason at this point why that little jump from (pre) '88 to 2007 would have been written in... what it added to the story other than more confusion. Would the numbers have been transmitting as early as '77? Perhaps the entire plane had to jump back to '77 to drop off the losties, and we heard the numbers transmission in the brief moment they were there?


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> But if Dharmaville has been sitting abandoned for many years and has never been inhabited by the Others, who built the runway?


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7152218#post7152218


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jking said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7152218#post7152218


Right, I knew it was a smeek. But it was the natural follow up question to the path that jkeegan and aindik were going down. Until we get more information, we're stuck in an endless loop of questions.


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

I don't recall hearing the numbers being broadcast during the flight/"landing". I heard what sounded like an automated altimeter calling out 60, 50, etc as the plane went down...but not the numbers. Maybe I just missed it.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I'm pretty sure it was the numbers.

27 hours 45 minutes left..


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BrandonRe said:


> I don't recall hearing the numbers being broadcast during the flight/"landing". I heard what sounded like an automated altimeter calling out 60, 50, etc as the plane went down...but not the numbers. Maybe I just missed it.


It was the Numbers. It was even in the captioning.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> It was the Numbers. It was even in the captioning.


I just rewatched the scene tonight and it doesn't sound like Hurley saying the numbers this time. I wonder if there is any significance in that?


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

No, it wasn't Hurley saying the numbers - and it was definitely THE numbers, though they weren't said for long so it would have been real easy to miss - it almost sounded robotic.

Is it possible that when Danielle removed her tape recording at the radio station at the end of S3 that the original numbers recording simply started playing again? The easiest explanation is that her recording overrode the numbers; remove her recording, and the numbers were broadcast again. I know that doesn't explain how the sat phone worked but hey, one problem at a time!

While we're beating up the continuity guy, did anyone notice that the group picture from 1977 is wrong? Everyone is facing forward in the picture, but when the shot was taken Hurley turned to Kate and said, "Nama-what?" The "click" definitely comes well after he turns. (I had to watch the episode a second time, since I missed the numbers the first time too. )


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jking said:


> I just rewatched the scene tonight and it doesn't sound like Hurley saying the numbers this time. I wonder if there is any significance in that?


Why would Hurley be saying the numbers? Since he first heard the numbers from some crazy guy in a nuthouse, who in turn heard them broadcast over a radio in the South Pacific, why would it be Hurley's voice broadcasting the numbers?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Possibilities:
> 1) (cringe) Something has actually changed, and Danielle never put her message on the tower. (I don't buy this without a hell of a good story/explanation)
> 2) Someone after 2005 goes back to the tower and turns on the original broadcast, of the numbers.
> 3) While flying in, 316 was temporarily sometime before 1988, then eventually landed in 2007.. (or, landed whenever, but Sun/Frank boating from island to island went across time somehow).


Or, since we know that time distorts around the island, perhaps the radio signal itself "traveled" in time.


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

PEOPLE! The reason the numbers are playing in 2007 is the same reason Otherville is abandoned. I've been screaming this since last week. The Losties have changed the past and it has affected the future, 2007.

The runway was being extended probably by the Others when they had Kate and Sawyer captive, but I imagine that it had existed there since Dharma time.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

spikedavis said:


> PEOPLE! The reason the numbers are playing in 2007 is the same reason Otherville is abandoned. I've been screaming this since last week. The Losties have changed the past and it has affected the future, 2007.


Yes. I thought this was the explanation most people here were leaning toward for some time now. I guess not.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Locke, paraplegics, spider bites, Nikki...

http://cbs13.com/local/Paraplegic.Man.Suffers.2.958151.html

A man paralysed for years suddenly walks again after being bitten by a spider


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> It was the Numbers. It was even in the captioning.


Just rewatched that scene. My cc had an male voice saying 50, 60...

Those aren't the numbers. Or am I looking in the wrong place?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

That's the right spot. Right as the co-plot says "Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!" you can hear the voice on the radio say "...four, eight, fifteen...". The captions are wrong.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

spikedavis said:


> PEOPLE! The reason the numbers are playing in 2007 is the same reason Otherville is abandoned. I've been screaming this since last week. The Losties have changed the past and it has affected the future, 2007.
> 
> The runway was being extended probably by the Others when they had Kate and Sawyer captive, but I imagine that it had existed there since Dharma time.





Fool Me Twice said:


> Yes. I thought this was the explanation most people here were leaning toward for some time now. I guess not.


It's the explanation I'm leaning toward, but I'm simply pointing out that it's not 100% concrete yet, which is why the current evidence puts us into an infinite question loop.

As for the runway, don't you think if the runway already existed and was simply being extended, Sawyer and Kate wouldn't have had to ask what they were building? It would have been pretty obvious.


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## rkallerud (Feb 24, 2003)

Or hearing the numbers could be part of the same phenomenon from season one when Hurley and others heard the radio broadcast that seemed to come from the past. Which is possibly related to the time distortion around the island as demonstrated by Faraday's 'payload' experiment after arriving on the island.



spikedavis said:


> PEOPLE! The reason the numbers are playing in 2007 is the same reason Otherville is abandoned. I've been screaming this since last week. The Losties have changed the past and it has affected the future, 2007.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> First of all, this was totally mentioned earlier in this or another thread, so I'm officially labeling this as a deliberate smeek, but I don't know that I fully appreciated this or gave it enough attention:
> 
> _While the 316 flight was landing, they heard the numbers being broadcast on the radio!!!_


Just wanted to give you a hard time JeffKeegan. 
You smeeked me, yet again . Maybe I don't type loud enough.



Cindy1230 said:


> When they were trying to get control of the plane, using the radio,... you can hear the numbers on the transmission.
> 
> I thought they turned those off? Or they just turned off Danielle's transmission.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

spikedavis said:


> PEOPLE! The reason the numbers are playing in 2007 is the same reason Otherville is abandoned. I've been screaming this since last week. The Losties have changed the past and it has affected the future, 2007.
> 
> The runway was being extended probably by the Others when they had Kate and Sawyer captive, but I imagine that it had existed there since Dharma time.


I think that is highly unlikely. They've gone to great pains to show causality loops in the time travel we've seen. Why would they want to go and mess it all up?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hapdrastic said:


> I think that is highly unlikely. They've gone to great pains to show causality loops in the time travel we've seen. Why would they want to go and mess it all up?


Because the Incident messed up the universe, which now needs to be fixed.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

spikedavis said:


> PEOPLE! The reason the numbers are playing in 2007 is the same reason Otherville is abandoned. I've been screaming this since last week. The Losties have changed the past and it has affected the future, 2007.
> 
> The runway was being extended probably by the Others when they had Kate and Sawyer captive, but I imagine that it had existed there since Dharma time.


I don't know. I'm still in the camp of "Whatever happened, happened." I still don't think we'll see any evidence of timeline changes since that's a plot point that tends to open up holes. I was under the impression that this is what they wanted to stay away from and we'd have a time travel story where things are fixed.

I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong when I'm presented with clear evidence and a plot point that suggests timeline changes are occurring. But right now, I think we don't have all the pieces together to make any concrete assumptions on what's going on--or even WHERE the story's going to go to.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Why would Hurley be saying the numbers? Since he first heard the numbers from some crazy guy in a nuthouse, who in turn heard them broadcast over a radio in the South Pacific, why would it be Hurley's voice broadcasting the numbers?


http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/This_Place_Is_Death/Theories#Hurley_speaking_the_numbers.3F

There has been some discussion that when Danielle and her team were with Jin on the beach in the episode "This Place is Death", when they heard the numbers being spoken over the radio, it was Hurley's voice. I don't know if it was or wasn't, but that voice did sound like Hurley to me, and the voice in this episode didn't.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

So, just a thought..

First, I still believe in my gut that there are some clever tricks here that are meant to make us think that things have changed, when in fact they haven't. Although I have to admit some of this is getting kind of convincing.

But, it might be interesting anyway to do a little thought exercise here.. Let's assume (for the purpose of this exercise) that it's a GIVEN that something has changed (and therefore that things _can_ be changed). Ok, given that given, let's make guesses as to exactly what MIGHT have changed that caused the perceived changes we're seeing...

(if there's a compelling enough cause/effect path that would account for all of the changes, that may just push us to the other side of the razor)

So, what are the things we've seen change?
* Trashed barracks w/Dharma signs
* 2007 radio broadcast (tower on, numbers not Danielle) that we didn't think was likely in 2007
* (maybe) picture frame on the wall of the woman Miles ghostbusted for changed, along with all of the other pictures themselves changing

What else might fall into this category of things that changed (even if they weren't obvious, and even if there are far easier explanations for them)?

Then, what might have caused those changes?

Example:

Maybe Desmond having a vision caused him to save Charlie, who could then turn off the Looking Glass station, which would then allow the freighter to find them, which would lead Ben to turn the wheel, accidentally causing people to jump around in time. Sawyer/etc are in the past now where they weren't supposed to be, Jin meets Danielle, tells her he's been there before, she sees him disappear, she feels less lost and alone on the island, and she decides not to go to the radio tower.

Works better if you include stuff like "which would allow Jack/Hurley/Kate/Sun/Sayid/Aron off the island, which prevents blah blah blah", so there's an explanation for why them coming back is meaningful. Or maybe it works worse that way.

If there's a logical plot that could happen as a result of one lousy change happening, that's even more compelling.

(..and a rule - anyone guessing in the context of this game is 100% free to fully believe that nothing has changed.. participating in this game/exercise doesn't indicate a belief that anything actually has changed).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think (as I've speculated before) that things have changed, and that the cause of it is the universe breaking down. And things will only get worse until the proper order is restored.

By this, I don't mean that the "original time line" is "better" than the "new time line." Just that the undamaged universe is better than the dying universe, and if they don't fix it fast, there won't be any universe left. Or something like that.

In other words, what happened, happened, and if it suddenly didn't, either fix the universe or prepare to die!

As to what caused the changes, I suspect it was the cumulative effect of the Incident, the Hatch Blowing event, and the breaking down of time that resulted from it.


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> So, what are the things we've seen change?
> * Trashed barracks w/Dharma signs
> * 2007 radio broadcast (tower on, numbers not Danielle) that we didn't think was likely in 2007
> * (maybe) picture frame on the wall of the woman Miles ghostbusted for changed, along with all of the other pictures themselves changing
> ...


Just a wild theory -
Some change that were made keep Ben from stealing Alex. As a result Danielle never changes the message, and she never leads the Losties to turn it off. The main reason Ben convinces the others to move into Dharmaville is because he is raising a baby. Without Alex, they decide to stay at the temple and never remodel Dharmaville.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think (as I've speculated before) that things have changed, and that the cause of it is the universe breaking down. And things will only get worse until the proper order is restored.
> 
> By this, I don't mean that the "original time line" is "better" than the "new time line." Just that the undamaged universe is better than the dying universe, and if they don't fix it fast, there won't be any universe left. Or something like that.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think I agree. I think that if something has changed, and I'm still not totally convinced there's enough evidence (yet) to say definitively that something has changed, but if it has, it's not a completely other timeline in the traditional "time travel story" sense, but an object in the road that the universe has had to veer around temporarily before managing its "course correction" and getting back on the right path. If we are to take the entire Charlie/Desmond storyline as an example, Desmond was able to temporarily throw objects in the path of Charlie's fate time over time to save him, but in the end (since the ultimate outcome can't be changed), Charlie could not escape it.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

jkeegan, Rob H et. al. I would like to thank you and the many others who have posted thoughtful, well considered posts concerning LOST. I admit to being somewhat of a slacker viewer who simply watches for the entertainment value and does some yet insufficient analytical thinking about the series. I really enjoy the posts by the participants in the LOST threads. You make a supremely enjoyable television program even more rewarding.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

philw1776 said:


> jkeegan, Rob H et. al. I would like to thank you and the many others who have posted thoughtful, well considered posts concerning LOST. I admit to being somewhat of a slacker viewer who simply watches for the entertainment value and does some yet insufficient analytical thinking about the series. I really enjoy the posts by the participants in the LOST threads. You make a supremely enjoyable television program even more rewarding.


As one of the many just mentioned/thanked, I thank you for your thanks! It's great having a group of people to share this with.. ..and I'm actually crazy enough to think we actually have a chance in hell of arranging a thread where we all rewatch the entire series after this season's over. 

See you in the next thread, bruthah


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Phil...Jeff, Al, and I all thank you.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

..and now, the one hour of the week where someone isn't posting here.. (DOH!).

Just letting a few minutes pile up so I don't have to watch commercials.. See, I have this thing called TiVo - it's really cool..


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

8:15! Rock and roll!!!


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Phil...Jeff, Al, and I all thank you.


Hey! What about me?


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> jkeegan, Rob H et. al. I would like to thank you and the many others who have posted thoughtful, well considered posts concerning LOST. I admit to being somewhat of a slacker viewer who simply watches for the entertainment value and does some yet insufficient analytical thinking about the series. I really enjoy the posts by the participants in the LOST threads. You make a supremely enjoyable television program even more rewarding.


Much agreed!! :up:

And, very well stated. I add no more, but to Thank you all very much for sharing your insights and ponderings!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

spikedavis said:


> Hey! What about me?


Il a dit "jkeegan, Rob H et Al," pas vous.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

spikedavis said:


> Hey! What about me?


He did thank you Spike, but then everything changed, and now it turns out he never did.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Spike, I went back and changed everything so now you're thanked. That's the good news. The bad news is that your name is now Etal. 

It was a minor universal course correction, no charge. On the house.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

My thought on why the numbers could be heard over the radio when Lapidus was landing: We know that during the crash/landing there was a white light flash during which Sayid, Hurley, Kate and Jack were transported 30 years into the past. Perhaps it is that brief moment during the flash where we hear the numbers. They are not being broadcast in 2007, the plane just briefly exists in 1977.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

tiams said:


> My thought on why the numbers could be heard over the radio when Lapidus was landing: We know that during the crash/landing there was a white light flash during which Sayid, Hurley, Kate and Jack were transported 30 years into the past. Perhaps it is that brief moment during the flash where we hear the numbers. They are not being broadcast in 2007, the plane just briefly exists in 1977.


After the flash is done, it's daylight (with a blue sky), and there's conversation happening between them about "increase power! I can pull up out of this!", "you're going to crash us (or something)", "just do it!" before the copilot turns on his mike and starts saying "Mayday.. Mayday.." (AFTER which the numbers are heard). The flash was way over.

..however it could still be them traveling across "not-the-precise-heading" boundaries where they temporarily were pre-1988, or at least radio transmissions from pre-1988 that themselves went through time (even if the plane didn't much/at-all).


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> He did thank you Spike, but then everything changed, and now it turns out he never did.


heyooooooooo


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> After the flash is done, it's daylight (with a blue sky), and there's conversation happening between them about "increase power! I can pull up out of this!", "you're going to crash us (or something)", "just do it!" before the copilot turns on his mike and starts saying "Mayday.. Mayday.." (AFTER which the numbers are heard). The flash was way over.
> 
> ..however it could still be them traveling across "not-the-precise-heading" boundaries where they temporarily were pre-1988, or at least radio transmissions from pre-1988 that themselves went through time (even if the plane didn't much/at-all).


as they are trying to get control of the plane, which is for about 30 sec of daylight, then the copilot says mayday... then the instrument panel turns off... then the numbers come on.

there was a specific barrier they crossed that caused the plane to act funny/short and allow the numbers to come through...

i don't think there was a pre-1988 anything... they ended up in 2007 (as evidenced by the 30 yrs earlier right after they crashed), there was ONE flash, and it's been laid out so far that each time jump comes with a flash. i think they just entered the boundary of the radio tower and somehow the tower got turned on since the O6 left the island.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

I don't think anone has suggested this yet, but if so, I appologize. I think the incident has to do with Dharma digging around on the island, making their stations, not knowing that there is a hydrogen bomb buried there somewhere. They have mentioned Jughead at least once since the episode of that title, and a nuclear bomb detonating near exotic matter could be the cause of the incident.

Or not...


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## tgrim1 (Sep 11, 2006)

maybe OT and talked about elsewhere, but do we know the origin of the "others"? I doubt they are native since they seem to be a bunch of white people.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Well, first off a thermonuclear going off on the island near regular matter would be catastrophic enough. What it might do around exotic matter would probably be one HUGE island-busting incident. No, I think old Juggy's still there - and we're heading for something at the end like "_The Stand of The Strangelovians_". 

As for white people - they gotta come from somewhere. Since we don't know the origin of the island yet I don't think we can say who originally was an Other and who isn't, or rule out any race, creed, color or (why not) religion.


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