# TiVo CEO Tom Rogers CNET interview posted



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

CNET's (Molly Wood's) interview with Tom Roger is now available.

Not really any new info in the interview (mostly just stating the talking points), though he did seem receptive to adding the ability to transfer Season Passes and Wish Lists when upgrading.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Yep, nothing really new. He did imply that they will have some kind of support for third party apps (presumably more capable than the current HME) and that they're aware of their shortcomings in the home server space but no hints on when they may get around to addressing those things.

It's funny how measured his comments on the cable industry are compared to their FCC filings. Sensitive about offending cable partners I suppose.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Wow that was disappointing but now unexpected. I was also disappointed with some of the questions she asked and even more with some of the ones she didn't ask.


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

Chance to ask Tom a lot of questions.

"Tru-2-Way is the future" - really? By time it's ready it'll be replaced with the next thing that's never finished. "With Tru-2-Way having slowed down..." - little more realistic. Cable has NO INTEREST, period.

DirecTV - end of 2010? WoW! Deal announced end of 2008. 2 years? Sad.

Comcast deal. Blah Blah Blah. In other words, disaster and a waste of money. Probably gave up Patent fee rights too. Idiot.

RCN - ??? I walked away empty on that one.

Premiere - "One box" Oh God, that's going to get old. 
Half-baked Premiere - poor excuses. "Not everything at once" -- really, you are going to "overwhelm" us?

ENDLESS focus on TiVo Search. Great feature, but no one buys a TiVo for it, however. Maybe should've worked on that HD-UI the last 3.5 years, too.

Didn't answer the monthly fee deal. TiVo should integrate the monthly fee into the purchase price. TiVo looses TONS of sales because of that fee.

New remote and 11n WiFi is a profit center, basically. Sad, looking small; chasing dollars.

Streaming? No actual answer. "TiVo invented DVR's talking to each other" and Moxi made streaming happen.

3rd Tuner???????? Come on Molly. You know you should have asked that!

No question about Moxi??? No question about WMC? Where's the TV Extenders?

And finally, "Tom, you've had nearly 4 years to come out with something new. You've spent TONS of money on research, etc. You also seem completely out of touch with what people want. Your latest box is too little, too late and unfinished. Plus, it gives EVEN MORE ammunition to the TiVo haters that TiVo is on "death/buy-out watch". Should you step down for your miserable failure as CEO?"


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

The Season Pass checkpointing thing is something that they seriously need to consider. I've been through this once, when my ailing Series3 was replaced. You can't create a Season Pass for a show that's not in the guide, so you lose your Season Passes for shows on hiatus, and they can't be recreated until the show returns. It truly sucks and I'm considering upgrading to a Premiere next month, which will mean going through that again.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mikeyts said:


> The Season Pass checkpointing thing is something that they seriously need to consider. I've been through this once, when my ailing Series3 was replaced. You can't create a Season Pass for a show that's not in the guide, so you lose your Season Passes for shows on hiatus, and they can't be recreated until the show returns. It truly sucks and I'm considering upgrading to a Premiere next month, which will mean going through that again.


This is why I wish they would implement at least online the ability to set a season pass for any show just like with Netflix you can add a movie that doesn't have a release date. Once it appears in your guide it would send it to the TiVo.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Jeez, deandashl. Tell us how you really feel .


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

I was a TiVo defender for years, even before I got a TiVo. 

Tom Rogers NEEDS to go away fast. Limit the further damage and get the company going again.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

deandashl said:


> I was a TiVo defender for years, even before I got a TiVo.
> 
> Tom Rogers NEEDS to go away fast. Limit the further damage and get the company going again.


It is very hard. I see "Tivo fanboy" and I say, OK, I'm that. I see "fanboi" and it hurts but I say, yeah, they've got a point, we're absurd.

It doesn't really make any sense, but you do emotionally buy into companies. In Tivo's case it makes so much less sense because you're buying into a company, in terms of its people, innovation, philosophy, capabilities, that pretty much died years ago.

But when you look at the whole picture, the thieves and imbeciles that constitute the industry, you're left with this fanboy (or fanboi) feeling that the only moral high ground is Tivo. Entertainment is everywhere, but if you're trying to live a life that has some worth, you have to say that Tivo, which is still the technological- and consumer-value leader IMO (though a close call) is a choice that has some claim to grace. That's faint-to-invisible praise indeed for a company that once had it all.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Why can't the S3/HD/Premiere accept input from and control set top boxes like the S2?


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## DeWitt (Jun 30, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> Why can't the S3/HD/Premiere accept input from and control set top boxes like the S2?


Because it is designed to replace the set top box, and it is not practical to handle HD tv that way.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

I want whole home media streaming with my:

netbook
iPad
second tv


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

deandashl said:


> "Tru-2-Way is the future" - really? By time it's ready it'll be replaced with the next thing that's never finished.


He clearly indicated that TiVo inc. is not waiting on cable companies to do tru2way anymore. He just left the door open in case cable companies do come up with something 'in the future'


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Wil said:


> you're left with this fanboy (or fanboi) feeling that the only moral high ground is Tivo. Entertainment is everywhere, but if you're trying to live a life that has some worth, you have to say that Tivo, which is still the technological- and consumer-value leader IMO (though a close call) is a choice that has some claim to grace. That's faint-to-invisible praise indeed for a company that once had it all.


crud, my life has no worth without TiVo - I am off to make sure my subs are all paid off


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

deandashl said:


> And finally, "Tom, you've had nearly 4 years to come out with something new. You've spent TONS of money on research, etc. You also seem completely out of touch with what people want. Your latest box is too little, too late and unfinished. Plus, it gives EVEN MORE ammunition to the TiVo haters that TiVo is on "death/buy-out watch". Should you step down for your miserable failure as CEO?"


Your post summarizes many of the current failings of the company. But I'm not surprised, and you probably aren't either. Rogers is IMO a "glad-handing media executive". He comes from show business, which exists for "deals". That's why we get "deals" from him. As to results, well, that's another matter altogether. Results are very sadly lacking.


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## Kerry (Apr 24, 2002)

I'm disappointed that Tom didn't mention an intention to offer HDTiVo Premium XL Lifetime subscribers with the ability to opt-out of ads and pop ups.

The pause ads are a distraction for us PIP viewers who have to manually delete the pop up ad when we pause, and, of course the ever-increasing ads at the bottom of menus making it so we can't press the page-down button to get to the bottom of a menu; it's subliminal at it most devious. I'm certain many like myself purposefully don't view the ad so as to not reward the company.

Kerry


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Your post summarizes many of the current failings of the company. But I'm not surprised, and you probably aren't either. Rogers is IMO a "glad-handing media executive". He comes from show business, which exists for "deals". That's why we get "deals" from him. As to results, well, that's another matter altogether. Results are very sadly lacking.


I couldn't say it any better.

Tom Rogers is a country club CEO.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Although remaining relatively flat, looking at the stock price for the past 5 years that Tom has been in charge shows an increase of *208.35*%, with the biggest gains in the past couple/few months. It's impossible to say what could have happened with someone else behind the wheel...


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

orangeboy said:


> Although remaining relatively flat, looking at the stock price for the past 5 years that Tom has been in charge shows an increase of *208.35*%, with the biggest gains in the past couple/few months. It's impossible to say what could have happened with someone else behind the wheel...


Yeah, like other lawyers hired by someone else could not have achieved this.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> Yeah, like other lawyers hired by someone else could not have achieved this.


Who knows? Other lawyers could have conceded the fight, and TiVo be no more. See the last sentence of my previous post regarding the impossibility of knowing.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

orangeboy said:


> Although remaining relatively flat, looking at the stock price for the past 5 years that Tom has been in charge shows an increase of *208.35*%, with the biggest gains in the past couple/few months. It's impossible to say what could have happened with someone else behind the wheel...


That jump had everything to do with TiVo winning the law suit again Dish and more recently with rumors that TiVo might get bought out by EchoStar. Nothing else TiVo has announced (partnerships, new products, etc) has made the stock move at all. Now if it was Tom who initiated the law suit, then the stock went up because of him otherwise not.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

morac said:


> That jump ...


 ... pretty much in its entirety, happened over a 20 minute period on 3/3/2010 when the appeals court announced its decision. That lawsuit predates Rogers by years.


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

Some have said that TiVo should be MORE aggressive with it's patent licensing. I have a great deal of trouble giving Tom Rogers any credit for the lawsuit cash.

The REAL question, is what has Tom Rogers done to get TiVo profitable and growing again. He's made a number of back room deals that have produced almost nothing. 

1. Comcast - 3 or 4? years - disaster - pointless - waste of time and money.
2. DirecTV - 2 years - nothing.
3. RCN - 1 or 1.5 years ago? - nothing.

And NO ONE say he needs "more time". You will be struck with lightening.

And MOST importantly,

Series4 - 3.5 years in the making. UI not close to finished, no third-tuner on XL, no streaming yet, no TV Extenders (for streaming), no 11n wireless built-in for easy multi-room application. Just an update with current hardware for the series3. 

The Premiere is fine. You need a cheap box. 

The Premiere XL or "PowerBox" or "PowerServer" as I would have called it. Desperately needs a 3rd tuner, new remote and 11n WiFi; plus Extenders for streaming to other TV's. 

One cableCard, one line from cable, one DVR. TiVo anywhere there's an outlet for Extenders in the house. Plus streaming to desktops, Laptops and iPads from WiFi 11n anywhere AROUND the house.

Add $200 to the base price to eliminate subscriptions. $499 for Premiere. $699 to $799 for PXL, plus packages for Extenders. 

You HAVE to eliminate subscriptions, even if it's moved to the purchase price. It's a BIG hurdle for customer mindsets.


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

sweet, we're back to the three tuners thing again... clearly there has not been enough conversation on this board about TiVo having 3 tuners


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Speaking of monthly subscriptions versus paying for the subscription up front.... I have a friend that thinks it's terrible that you pay $299 for the box and it does not do anything. It won't record or anything at all if you don't pay for the subscription. 

That same friend just purchased a Nintendo DSI (for $149) for his daughter. I then asked him what will it do without him buying anything else for it? He stood there with a blank look on his face and said that it would not do much of anything without buying something else. 

I then told him that it seems that his complaint about Tivo should be the same complaint he should have about Nintendo. It's kind of a double standard to think otherwise. 


So, now he must pay $30 or so for each and every game that she wants to play. I'm not sure that he was convinced but it did seem like he had something to think about.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

orangeboy said:


> See the last sentence of my previous post regarding the impossibility of knowing.


So what is your point? That Rogers has brought value to the company? Others have already said the litigation pre-dates him.

I maintain he is just another mannequin CEO who is all about the perceived value of the company. This is often the mindset that struggling companies adopt, and it forces them to lose sight of the real bottom line designing and building things people want to buy. You can continue to raise capital for only so long if you don't have in place the infrastructure to build a better moused trap, your market eventually sees through the clothes you are not really wearing and you're toast.

I see Rogers as the SPR for TiVo's apparent paralysis over the last 5 years. They were unprepared and late to the party for HD, and their core product has been stagnant for years absolutely unheard of in the consumer electronics business!

So last month they finally step up to show us what they've been working on a new hardware platform. A new model light enough, and powerful enough to possibly fly but TiVo has chosen to put a cast iron engine in it, and initially fit it with square wheels. And what they have "re-invented" is not reinvented at all. More like renovated, and poorly at that. Is it better than the S3/HD? Yes. Is it an accomplishment _*any*_ consumer electronics company would be proud after three years of R&D? Hardly.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

magnus said:


> So, now he must pay $30 or so for each and every game that she wants to play. I'm not sure that he was convinced but it did seem like he had something to think about.


I'm not convinced either - it's obvious that you have to purchase games for the Nintendo, not so that you have to purchase service for the Tivo. Other than the comparison of what you get with initial purchase, this is a flawed analogy. Comparing to Nintendo is like saying you didn't know you had to buy gas when you bought a car, which anyone would know is absurd.

You would not think it is absurd for someone to think service is included with the price of a Tivo. Moxi and Replay didn't think so.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> So what is your point? ...


The point is that Tom Rogers is the CEO of TiVo at this time, and has been for the past 5 years. It's impossible to know how the company could have been run differently with someone else in that seat.

Unless of course you can time travel back and assassinate Tom Rogers and take his place? Read and understand the words I type, don't _read into_ those words ideas/opinions/speculations floating around in your own head.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

magnus said:


> I'm not sure that he was convinced


No doubt, as I think your analogy is flawed. We purchase content for our TiVo's from a third party just as you purchased games for the Nintendo. I would think the TiVo service is much more akin to a cataloging service for his games, and an interface to be informed of new games that are available, and a way to rent or purchase them.

Let me say that I have no problem with TiVo charging for their service. It is instead the lame discount offered for multiple units for the purpose of MRV I take issue with. I have this same issue with multiple outlet charges from cable cos as well.

I live alone, but have three TV's in three different rooms. I can only watch one at a time, so I receive little to no additional value for the extras I am charged for. Think of it as being one person with two computers (laptop and desktop). You only use one at a time. Do software licenses require an additional license to be paid for when you simply want to use the license you already own on your laptop in lieu of your desktop? Of course not.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

orangeboy said:


> The point is that Tom Rogers is the CEO of TiVo at this time, and has been for the past 5 years. It's impossible to know how the company could have been run differently with someone else in that seat.
> 
> Unless of course you can time travel back and assassinate Tom Rogers and take his place? Read and understand the words I type, don't _read into_ those words ideas/opinions/speculations floating around in your own head.


 Allright, I'll read nothing into your words. Which are basically that we know nothing about whether another captain at the helm could have done any better or any worse. So there seems to be no point here at all.

My point is, that under his management, a consumer electronics company has delivered little if anything more compelling to the market over the last 5 years.

Could another electronics CEO do worse, possibly. But any other, who still has a company and a job, has done better (with maybe the exception of Palm).


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

slowbiscuit said:


> I'm not convinced either - it's obvious that you have to purchase games for the Nintendo, not so that you have to purchase service for the Tivo. Other than the comparison of what you get with initial purchase, this is a flawed analogy. Comparing to Nintendo is like saying you didn't know you had to buy gas when you bought a car, which anyone would know is absurd.
> 
> You would not think it is absurd for someone to think service is included with the price of a Tivo. Moxi and Replay didn't think so.


if you buy a lifetime sub for TiVo it's not much more than Moxi is it? and how is it not obvious that you have to buy TiVo service? their website says it plenty, and I am sure the in store ads say so too.. i highly doubt many people buy a tivo and then are shocked that they have to have a subscription too


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

deandashl said:


> no third-tuner on XL,


3 Tuners would not even do for me. I think what they should have done is 2 Cable tuners and 2 QAM/OTA tuners, I think that would have suited more people then just other cable card tuner*.

*And being less complex, as some headends only support two streams per Tuning adapter.(And that being you would need two Tuning adapter.)


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

How is a cable tuner distinct from a QAM tuner?

If you need two tuner adapters for a more than two tuner adapters for a more than two tuner DVR, so be it. I doubt that I'd find two TAs to be much more annoying than one.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

Mike-Mike said:


> if you buy a lifetime sub for TiVo it's not much more than Moxi is it? and how is it not obvious that you have to buy TiVo service? their website says it plenty, and I am sure the in store ads say so too.. i highly doubt many people buy a tivo and then are shocked that they have to have a subscription too


I don't know. If i didn't start buying TiVos when they first came out and went to get on board with a dvr now, I don't think I would necessarily assume there is a monthly fee.

In TiVo's case the fee is exorbitant for what you get, for the most part, so I expect a lot of people would be surprised not only that there is a fee but how much it is a month.

Why would someone logically conclude that a TiVo would need a subscription service? Coming from DVRs, to DVD players and the rest, none of those devices had a subscription service with them.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

magnus said:


> Speaking of monthly subscriptions versus paying for the subscription up front.... I have a friend that thinks it's terrible that you pay $299 for the box and it does not do anything. It won't record or anything at all if you don't pay for the subscription.
> 
> That same friend just purchased a Nintendo DSI (for $149) for his daughter. I then asked him what will it do without him buying anything else for it? He stood there with a blank look on his face and said that it would not do much of anything without buying something else.
> 
> ...


You do know that is a horrible analogy.

What happens when you pay for a tivo subscription and the box just sits there. TiVo doesn't provide you tv shows. They resell you the data for the guide.

A correct analogy would be nintendo charging a monthly fee so the games you pay $30 for each actually work on the machine. If you stop paying nintendo your games stop working.

The TiVo monthly fee hasn't made sense to me since it went above $7 a month.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

mikeyts said:


> How is a cable tuner distinct from a QAM tuner?
> 
> If you need two tuner adapters for a more than two tuner adapters for a more than two tuner DVR, so be it. I doubt that I'd find two TAs to be much more annoying than one.


Have to disagree. One TA is one too many! Two would be horrible.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

dlfl said:


> Have to disagree. One TA is one too many! Two would be horrible.


The problem is that the OpenCable Tuning Resolver Specification only requires a TA to be able to handle 2 tuners (it should have required as many tuners as an M-Card is required to handle, that being 6). Cisco decided to go with that, making their TA in all ways inferior to Moto's (it was already 3 times as large ).

Actually, I think that you're just stuck if you have a DVR with more than two tuners and a Cisco TA--the DVR would have to have two available USB connections and be ready and willing to handle two TA sessions. The Moxi 3-tuner DVR may or may not be prepared to do that but their documentation makes it seem like it isn't. The software for Ceton's four-tuner PCI card can do it.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I did not say it was a perfect analogy but it is what it is. You can't expect that you pay for a device and that be the end of it. If you want to record and have the convenience of doing so then you need to pay for service. If you merely want to record and don't want the convenience of season passes....then just buy a VCR.



marksman said:


> You do know that is a horrible analogy.
> 
> What happens when you pay for a tivo subscription and the box just sits there. TiVo doesn't provide you tv shows. They resell you the data for the guide.
> 
> ...


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Doesn't Bill charge you for each version of Windows? I think that he does.
Doesn't Bill charge you for each PC you want to use Office on? I think that he does.



solutionsetc said:


> Do software licenses require an additional license to be paid for when you simply want to use the license you already own on your laptop in lieu of your desktop? Of course not.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

magnus said:


> Doesn't Bill charge you for each version of Windows? I think that he does.


Yes he does. But an OS is in operation as long as the computer is on. The EULA specifically states that the software can only be used on one computer at a time. Even then one could argue that physically powering down computer A before booting the OS on computer B (and vice versa) would be within the "letter" of the OS EULA.

But you are in error regarding "Office". If you look at the EULA of the application, there are no restrictions on installing to a second device so long as you are the only user.

Many Corporations and Universities have a limited number of licenses to applications they use, and employ a variety of methods to ensure that the number in use is not exceeded by the number of users at any given time. A key server is a prime example of this.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I wonder how well that would work for you if Bill decided to claim foul.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

magnus said:


> I wonder how well that would work for you if Bill decided to claim foul.


It is spelled out in the EULA, if you bothered to read it before simply making assumptions.

BTW this isn't any different than the "fair use" policies that cover practically any licensed use. You have the right to make a copy for your use at another location and/or another device. What you do not have the right to do is make a copy for someone else's use as well as your own.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

deandashl said:


> Series4 - 3.5 years in the making.


I keep seeing this number but any one have actual facts about it. remember that trying to work out tru2way with cable companies is also in this time period along with doing more work on S3 after it was released. I read somewhere (BKDTV?) that the chipset in premiere has only been commercially available for a little more than a year.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Um, ok. 



solutionsetc said:


> It is spelled out in the EULA, if you bothered to read it before simply making assumptions.
> 
> BTW this isn't any different than the "fair use" policies that cover practically any licensed use. You have the right to make a copy for your use at another location and/or another device. What you do not have the right to do is make a copy for someone else's use as well as your own.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

solutionsetc said:


> It is spelled out in the EULA, if you bothered to read it before simply making assumptions.
> 
> BTW this isn't any different than the "fair use" policies that cover practically any licensed use. You have the right to make a copy for your use at another location and/or another device. What you do not have the right to do is make a copy for someone else's use as well as your own.


The reason for End User License Agreements is that the publisher wishes to impose conditions beyond the normal copyright restrictions. When you're agreeing to an EULA its terms take precedence over "fair use".


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> :
> Could another electronics CEO do worse, possibly. But any other, who still has a company and a job, has done better (with maybe the exception of Palm).


Oh I don't have time to look up the probable 40-50 exceptions to this statement, but just ask the Motorola stockholders who have seen their $25 stock go to $7 in the last 3 years.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

nrc said:


> The reason for End User License Agreements is that the publisher wishes to impose conditions beyond the normal copyright restrictions. When you're agreeing to an EULA its terms take precedence over "fair use".


The much abused "fair use" doctrine of Title 17 doesn't actually apply to software, for which there is specific language (in Title 17) spelling out the terms of your right to back it up.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

(This is not a proper place for this discussion and I apologize to everyone following this thread for the rathole).


Wil said:


> Fair use is not created by any legislation.


I don't recall making that claim . People speak of "Fair Use" as legislation because there is US Federal Copyright legislation which refers to itself as "Fair Use" (17 USC §107, entitled "Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use"). Therefore there is no misconception. There may be another meaning of "fair use" predating the usage of the term by US Federal law, but that section of the U.S. Code is what most people are referring to in online discussions (and elsewhere) and I'm fairly certain that it's what ncr was talking about in what I quoted. The legal use of copyrighted materials in the United States is not governed by some ancient ideal, but by our copyright laws of which the "Fair Use Doctrine" is a part. You can argue that the 3800 y/o concept of fair use overrides the meaning of it in US Federal legislation, but if you cross copyright law and call it "fair use", that argument's not going to get you very far while defending yourself in Federal court.

That part of U.S. copyright law was intended to protect the right of scholars, students and journalists to use excerpts of copyrighted materials (but no substantial part of the whole) in their productive, non-commercial works (you can read the statute and there's a brief article on the Copyright office's site which expands on it here). That protection prevents copyright from constraining free public discussion of ideas which are partly or wholely defined in copyrighted works. In 1984, five U.S. Supreme Court Justices decided that it should also be construed to allow the personal non-commercial, non-productive use of whole copyrighted works as recorded from broadcast television (Sony v. Universal). The letter of U.S. copyright law has never been modified to include that interpretation so it only exists as case law.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Actually, I do think it is absurd to think that.



slowbiscuit said:


> You would not think it is absurd for someone to think service is included with the price of a Tivo.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

/Subscribe


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

deandashl said:


> The Premiere XL or "PowerBox" or "PowerServer" as I would have called it. Desperately needs a 3rd tuner, new remote and 11n WiFi; plus Extenders for streaming to other TV's.


We can debate the details of what "extras" the XL should have, but you make a very good point.

The XL needs additional features to further differentiate it from the cheaper box. Anybody who knows anything about electronics knows he's getting screwed when TiVo replaces a $40 hard drive with a $60 hard drive and then bumps up the price by $200. This is marketing 101. When Honda bumps the Accord LX to the Accord EX they add a bundle of features. This obscures the cost of each individual upgrade item.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Faster CPU, Network and a new GUI can hardly be considered as reinvented and reimagined.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> /Subscribe


You're a little late to the party!


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

marksman said:


> YA correct analogy would be nintendo charging a monthly fee so the games you pay $30 for each actually work on the machine. If you stop paying nintendo your games stop working.


Which is actually what Microsoft does. You have to pay $50 a year if you want to play multiplayer games online.

Another good example would be anti-virus software. You pay for the software and then have to pay a yearly subscription fee for virus definition updates. This used to be a per-computer subscription fee, but lately most A/V companies allow up to 3 computers per subscription. Of course they raised the subscription price to compensate.

I don't understand people who are anti-service fees simply because DVD players and things like Roku box don't have them. That doesn't make any sense as it's comparing apples to oranges.

Let's compare the Roku box to a TiVo. Both boxes can do Netflix and Amazon (both which cost money by the way) so let's remove those features and see what's left. At this point the Roku box does nothing. Even without a subscription, the TiVo can act as a dumb VCR where you can make manual recordings so even at that point the TiVo is ahead. If you add a subscription you can use the TiVo as a DVR.

The TiVo box is a DVR. All DVRs (excluding Windows media center) have a service fee which includes guide and software updates. This includes Moxi which simply includes the service fee as part of the purchase price. You can choose to do that with TiVo as well by buying lifetime service.

Now one thing I might agree with is that things like Netflix and buying from Amazon should still work even without a subscription, but since the interface for both features is on TiVo's servers and not on the TiVo box itself, I can see why this isn't the case.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

magnus said:


> I did not say it was a perfect analogy but it is what it is. You can't expect that you pay for a device and that be the end of it.


LOL, I don't pay extra after I buy a TV, or a Windows HTPC (the Tivo equivalent). C'mon man, get over it - your analogy sucks.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

magnus said:


> Actually, I do think it is absurd to think that.


As I said, both Moxi and Replay disagree with you - the service price is (or was, for Replay) included in the price of the box. Tivo is the only retail DVR charging a monthly fee.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

slowbiscuit said:


> LOL, I don't pay extra after I buy a TV, or a Windows HTPC (the Tivo equivalent).


You will if you expect ongoing support and upgrades.



slowbiscuit said:


> As I said, both Moxi and Replay disagree with you - the service price is (or was, for Replay) included in the price of the box. Tivo is the only retail DVR charging a monthly fee.


Or another way of looking at it is that TiVo is the only retail DVR giving you the option of paying either monthly fees or a one-time product lifetime fee.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

nrc said:


> You will if you expect ongoing support and upgrades.


Or, unless you use OTA, if you want to get any actual programming on the TV. No matter how you get the programming (rental DVDs, Netflix, online etc) you ARE paying in order to use the TV. You just happen to pay to someone else other than the TV manufacturer. If you stopped paying, your TV would be useless unless you decided to go OTA. It's not much different from buying a TiVo with LT sub. Actually, it's not ANY different.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

nrc said:


> You will if you expect ongoing support and upgrades.


So if I buy a TV, I should expect to have to may a monthly fee for them to update the firmware? What TVs are you buying?

Also could you please point me to a link where it shows upgrades on an Windows OS costs money? I had to pay for Windows 7 just like I had to pay for TiVo Premiere. I have yet to shell out cash for any patches for Windows 7 or previously on Vista, or XP, or 95. I also haven't seen any fees for Windows Media Center since that is what we are talking about here.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

As other's have stated.. .you do if you're going to watch anything other than OTA. You're just paying it to someone else.

I think my analogy is just as good as the ones that people use to compare TVs to Tivos. 



slowbiscuit said:


> LOL, I don't pay extra after I buy a TV, or a Windows HTPC (the Tivo equivalent). C'mon man, get over it - your analogy sucks.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Are you missing something here? I do believe that Tivo offers both.

What you are referring to is Lifetime Service, duh. Also, is Replay a good example? last I checked... they were out of business.



slowbiscuit said:


> As I said, both Moxi and Replay disagree with you - the service price is (or was, for Replay) included in the price of the box. Tivo is the only retail DVR charging a monthly fee.


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

I don't understand why people keep bringing up that there is no monthly fee for Moxi but there is for TiVo. You have a choice with TiVo, you can buy a lifetime sub and never pay a monthly fee. Everyone on this board should be aware of that, but for some reason the TiVo detractors seem to leave that out when they trash TiVo or tout how wonderful Moxi is


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Mike-Mike said:


> I don't understand why people keep bringing up that there is no monthly fee for Moxi but there is for TiVo. You have a choice with TiVo, you can buy a lifetime sub and never pay a monthly fee. Everyone on this board should be aware of that, but for some reason the TiVo detractors seem to leave that out when they trash TiVo or tout how wonderful Moxi is


It's not quite the same thing as TiVo's "lifetime" is really only three years in the case of a hardware failure. Then you not only have to pay for the repair of the box (which is a replacement), but another $200 for lifetime on the replacement.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

The reason being is that it is an extra hurdle for any product. I understand why TiVo does it, but it is a tougher sale to those who already feel like they are paying more than they should be for cable. You convince them to replace the cable companies DVR and then they have to pay the monthly fee for TiVo on top of the cost of the hardware which eats into any savings. Any time you tell someone there is a monthly subscription fee it can take away a sale of any product.

I think it boils down to the availability of a choice. Look at it this way. With Moxi, I can look at it and ask myself if I pay $499 for it. With TiVo I can look at it and go would I pay $299 for it plus a monthly fee. I realize there is the lifetime option obviously since I chose it, but when shopping in Best Buy most people won't. 

The monthly fee immediately takes away from the product while also lowering the idea of what price you think you should pay for a TiVo with lifetime.

I would be curious to see if sales would change any if they offered lifetime TiVos in the Best Buy next to the regular Premiere. You could put them at the $599 price point which would be the MSD price of lifetime, but they would only be available at Best Buy. The regular $299 Premiere would still have the lifetime option of $399, but the lifetime TiVo would be locked so you couldn't change the plan. 

If you want somewhat of another example of how monthly fees hurt products, look no further than MMOs on the PC. You have one giant success out there known as WOW, but beyond that many people just refuse to pay monthly for games on top of the sale of the game. Some of these things could have been good if not great games, but as soon as you put a monthly fee on it you lose a portion of the potential customers who are either already paying more subscriptions than they want to or just refuse to pay monthly. Some MMOs have recently grasped this and now offer lifetime memberships up front but even those are risky because you don't know if they will truly be around long enough for them to feel they got their money's worth.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> It's not quite the same thing as TiVo's "lifetime" is really only three years in the case of a hardware failure. Then you not only have to pay for the repair of the box (which is a replacement), but another $200 for lifetime on the replacement.


So Moxi will replace the hardware free of charge after their 1 year limited warranty is up?

It looks like the Moxi limited warranty is similar to TiVo's:



> What We Will Do
> The First 90 Days: Limited Warranty Coverage for Parts and Labor. At its sole discretion, ARRIS will either (1) repair the products using new or serviceable used parts, or (2) replace the products with a new *or refurbished unit* of equivalent functionality. You will not be charged for parts, labor or the cost of shipping the products back to you.
> 
> After the First 90 Days: Limited Warranty Coverage for Parts Only. For the remainder of the warranty period, at its sole discretion, ARRIS will either (1) repair the products using new or serviceable used parts, or (2) replace the products with a new *or refurbished unit* of equivalent functionality. You will be charged ARRISs standard rate for the cost of labor. You will not be charged for parts or the cost of shipping the unit back to you.


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

solutionsetc said:


> It's not quite the same thing as TiVo's "lifetime" is really only three years in the case of a hardware failure. Then you not only have to pay for the repair of the box (which is a replacement), but another $200 for lifetime on the replacement.


I am new to TiVo, so I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Mike-Mike said:


> solutionsetc said:
> 
> 
> > It's not quite the same thing as TiVo's "lifetime" is really only three years in the case of a hardware failure. Then you not only have to pay for the repair of the box (which is a replacement), but another $200 for lifetime on the replacement.
> ...


The post really doesn't make sense because there is no mention about "three years" in either the TiVo Limited Warranty or in the TiVo Service Agreement (section 14, regarding PLS), found on TiVo's policies page. As a new owner, I encourage you to become familiar with TiVo's policies.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

He might be referring to the out of warranty cost of transferring lifetime to the replacement TiVo. 

IIRC from old discussions when they implemented the new transfer fee.

A new TiVo has a full 90 day warranty, and they don't charge for replacement or transferring lifetime.

If it dies between 90 days and 1 year, they charge $49 for a replacement fee and they will transfer lifetime for free.

If it dies after year 1 and and you've had lifetime service for less than 3 years, there is a $149 replacement fee and no charge for transferring.

They do charge a lifetime transfer fee after 3 years.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> I would be curious to see if sales would change any if they offered lifetime TiVos in the Best Buy next to the regular Premiere. You could put them at the $599 price point which would be the MSD price of lifetime, but they would only be available at Best Buy. The regular $299 Premiere would still have the lifetime option of $399, but the lifetime TiVo would be locked so you couldn't change the plan.


I'm willing to bet that a lot *less* TiVos would be sold in that case do to sticker shock. TiVo tried bundle pricing in the past and sales were horrible because many people don't want to drop $600 or $700 on a DVR even if it came without monthly fees.

I always ask myself why people lease cars. Leasing has got to be one of the worst deals I can possibly imagine. You're paying a monthly fee, there's restrictions and when the lease period is up, you don't even own the car. Yet this is very popular with a lot of people because it's considered "cheaper" or "easier" than buying a car.

What a lot of people leave out of the argument against TiVo services fees is that cable companies also charge a monthly fee for DVRs and many charge a higher fee than TiVo's monthly fee. In my Comcast area, it's $15.95 a month per DVR. It used to be $20.90 a month for additional DVRs beyond the first one, but Comcast just lowered it starting this month. TiVo's most expensive monthly fee is $12.95 a month, that's a $3 a month difference and that's not taking into account the discounted rates for paying upfront or for owning multiple boxes. It's the upfront price that stops most people from purchasing. That and the lack of VOD and PPV and the requirement of using a TA in many areas.

BTW it looks like with Moxy, if it breaks after the first year you have to buy a new one at full price. At least with TiVo you have the option of purchasing a relatively cheap 3 year warranty.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> He might be referring to the out of warranty cost of transferring lifetime to the replacement TiVo.
> 
> IIRC from old discussions when they implemented the new transfer fee.
> 
> ...


That really needs to be clearly spelled out in one of the policies. The TiVo Service Agreement does state:



> TiVo reserves the right to charge you a fee to transfer Product Lifetime Service from a TiVo DVR being replaced to a replacement TiVo DVR.


I read that as TiVo _possibly_ charging a fee even as early as 1 year when the Limited Warranty expires, since an explicit duration isn't specified!


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

morac said:


> I'm willing to bet that a lot *less* TiVos would be sold in that case do to sticker shock. TiVo tried bundle pricing in the past and sales were horrible because many people don't want to drop $600 or $700 on a DVR even if it came without monthly fees.


This is why you put it next to the other ones. I didn't say it would necessarily work, but I would be curious to see which one people would buy if presented that way if they were already considering a TiVo.

The only pricing I remember them trying was the higher monthly fee without an upfront cost. Of course the DT series 2 left a lot to be desired since you only had analog channels for the second tuner. It might work better now, but I could see it working even better if cable cards were eliminated.



morac said:


> What a lot of people leave out of the argument against TiVo services fees is that cable companies also charge a monthly fee for DVRs and many charge a higher fee than TiVo's monthly fee. In my Comcast area, it's $15.95 a month per DVR. It used to be $20.90 a month for additional DVRs beyond the first one, but Comcast just lowered it starting this month. TiVo's most expensive monthly fee is $12.95 a month, that's a $3 a month difference and that's not taking into account the discounted rates for paying upfront or for owning multiple boxes. It's the upfront price that stops most people from purchasing. That and the lack of VOD and PPV and the requirement of using a TA in many areas.


Take FiOS as another and with FiOS TiVo costs more. FiOS offers their HD DVR for 14.99 a month. TiVo is of course 12.99+3.99 for the cable card before the upfront cost.

Now assume you want 2 rooms. I don't know if you can use the Home DVR with a HD DVR but lets assume you can. The Home Media DVR is 19.99 and then you pay 14.99 for the HD DVR for a total of 34.98. With TiVo you of course are paying 12.99+9.99+3.99+3.99 or 30.96. This leaves you $3 every month to put towards the $600 you paid for two TiVos which means you would pay it off in 200 months.

Assuming you can't use that setup then two HD DVRs run you 14.99x2 or 29.98 or a $1 less than TiVo a month.

Obviously to most of us here, TiVo is worth it. It is convincing everyone else it is at least until TiVo can figure out a better pricing option. My father still tells me his Directivos are some of the best presents he never wanted. It took me months to sell him on it also. Now he won't go to HD because he can't get them. My mom switched to FiOS and after 30 days was begging me to get her TiVos. I made her wait for the Premieres though so she could have my TiVo HDs since she only records SD.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Everyone who pays taxes is paying for OTA.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

morac said:


> BTW it looks like with Moxy, if it breaks after the first year you have to buy a new one at full price. At least with TiVo you have the option of purchasing a relatively cheap 3 year warranty.


Ok I'll bite. Where are you looking where it looks like "if it breaks after the first year you have to buy a new one at full price"? Please be specific and include a url to the policy you are referring to.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

I'm still confused why Tivo doesn't have a built in network adapter yet. I got what Tom Rogers said about trying to keep the cost of Tivo down, but come on, how much more would it cost? Especially considering I just purchased a USB 802.11n network adapter for $30. I know they can build it in for much less.

I also think that new qwerty remote should be included as standard with a new Tivo. But what do I know.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

innocentfreak said:


> So if I buy a TV, I should expect to have to may a monthly fee for them to update the firmware? What TVs are you buying?


I'm not aware of any TV manufacturers who routinely, automatically update their firmware for you or continue to add features for years after your purchase.



> Also could you please point me to a link where it shows upgrades on an Windows OS costs money? I had to pay for Windows 7 just like I had to pay for TiVo Premiere. I have yet to shell out cash for any patches for Windows 7 or previously on Vista, or XP, or 95. I also haven't seen any fees for Windows Media Center since that is what we are talking about here.


You paid for your your Premiere because it's a new piece of hardware. Did Microsoft provide a new PC with your Windows 7 upgrade?

If you upgrade Windows (Vista to 7 for instance) or even if you just want to add features (Home Basic to Home Premium for instance) you will pay money. If you want support beyond initial installation and forum support you'll pay for that as well.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

morac said:


> BTW it looks like with Moxy, if it breaks after the first year you have to buy a new one at full price. At least with TiVo you have the option of purchasing a relatively cheap 3 year warranty.


Moxi charges $75 plus parts for out of warranty repair. There is no lifetime transfer fee even after 3 years. You can always buy extended warranty for Moxi from the third party warranty companies because you don't have to worry about lifetime sub.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

Or you could just get an extended warranty from SquareTrade. http://www.squaretrade.com/pages/


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Resist said:


> I'm still confused why Tivo doesn't have a built in network adapter yet. I got what Tom Rogers said about trying to keep the cost of Tivo down, but come on, how much more would it cost? Especially considering I just purchased a USB 802.11n network adapter for $30. I know they can build it in for much less.


I'd object if it added 50 cents to the price since I have no use for it. What you're talking about is hundreds of thousands of people paying for something that only some of them will ever use. It's wasteful. Of course, that's also true of the big pile of cables that came packed in the box with my S3, of which I used only the HDMI one .


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Mike-Mike said:


> I don't understand why people keep bringing up that there is no monthly fee for Moxi but there is for TiVo. You have a choice with TiVo, you can buy a lifetime sub and never pay a monthly fee. Everyone on this board should be aware of that, but for some reason the TiVo detractors seem to leave that out when they trash TiVo or tout how wonderful Moxi is


but Moxi has no monthly fee - it says so right on their web site. Plus you get to pay extra for the one Moxi option of paying for service up front. Also Moxi is clearly outselling all competition. Marketing 101.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> I think it boils down to the availability of a choice. Look at it this way. With Moxi, I can look at it and ask myself if I pay $499 for it. With TiVo I can look at it and go would I pay $299 for it plus a monthly fee. I realize there is the lifetime option obviously since I chose it, but when shopping in Best Buy most people won't.


My Wife was adamant about not getting TiVo because of the monthly fees. I suited up and bought the first TiVo in our house because I knew of lifetime option, however since it was an 'unplanned' purchase I did not have the extra to hand for lifetime and waited about 4 months before I put lifetime on it (this was before year long contracts).

So oddly in our house - monthly fee was shooting down the sale of a TiVo and lifetime included was keeping me from getting it until I just went '[email protected] the torpedos'.

My wife was adding in season passes the second day I had it setup and she was the one who said we should get the second TiVo.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

nrc said:


> I'm not aware of any TV manufacturers who routinely, automatically update their firmware for you or continue to add features for years after your purchase.


Many of the newer sets with internet functionality do. They have added things like Netflix, Skype, Amazon VOD, and Pandora to the Panasonic Viera Cast models.



nrc said:


> You paid for your your Premiere because it's a new piece of hardware. Did Microsoft provide a new PC with your Windows 7 upgrade?
> 
> If you upgrade Windows (Vista to 7 for instance) or even if you just want to add features (Home Basic to Home Premium for instance) you will pay money. If you want support beyond initial installation and forum support you'll pay for that as well.


I paid for Premiere because I wanted the new features just like I would have to pay for Windows 7 if I wanted the new features. If TiVo could have figured out a way to offer the HD UI on the TiVo HD and charge an upgrade fee, I am sure they would also. In fact maybe they could look into modifying the classic UI so it works in HD and charge an upgrade fee to cover the work making the HD well HD.

You mean just like if I want to add THX to the Premiere which requires me to buy a different version? Just like TiVo used to charge to add home media functionality?


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Mike-Mike said:


> I am new to TiVo, so I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.


What he's saying is that you buy your TiVo with lifetime for $699 and then if it breaks 1 month outside of the warranty (13 months old) you have to buy another $299 TiVo and another $200 to transfer service to it.

So now, at year one plus one month, if you are unlucky your "lifetime" TiVo has cost you $1198.

People have argued for years that TiVo should offer one lifetime transfer for free due to product failure, but they refuse to do it, probably because it would cut into their sales of extended warranties.

The Premiere is clearly a cost reduced platform for TiVo and I expect that at the current prices they are making money on the Premiere, and definitely making money on the XL considering the larger hard drive costs them an extra $20 and the glo remote probably adds $3 to the cost of the hardware.

I am hoping this leaves flexibility for them to later reduce the price to spur more sales, or offer something like a $399 premiere with lifetime box that would sell a hell of a lot better than their current price of $299 with extremely expensive monthly or annual (or "lifetim") service.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

morac said:


> I always ask myself why people lease cars. Leasing has got to be one of the worst deals I can possibly imagine. You're paying a monthly fee, there's restrictions and when the lease period is up, you don't even own the car. Yet this is very popular with a lot of people because it's considered "cheaper" or "easier" than buying a car.


There are plenty of legitimate reasons to lease a vehicle, even if you pay a small premium to do so.

We take a business tax write off on our lease for all of the business use on the vehicle. This is far easier to do on a lease car than a purchase.

When leasing you are always driving a vehicle with a warranty so you don't have to worry about repair costs or having a vehicle that won't get you to your job which pays you very well.

Leasing "locks in" the resale of the vehicle. If you lease an SUV and gas goes up to $5 you don't have to worry about the horrendous resale hit on a car that gets 20 mpg.

Likewise if you get a lemon or a car with numerous maintenance issues then you just throw the keys at the dealer at the end of the lease and walk away from those problems.

It does cost more, but not everyone who leases is a "dumbass". In fact I'd say that if you change vehicles every 5-7 years (as many people do) you are probably better off leasing than buying.

From a purely financial perspective the smartest thing to do is purchase a 2-3 year old used car with extremely high reliability and drive it for 15 years, but how many people want to drive something until the wheels fall off?


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

jmpage2 said:


> What he's saying is that you buy your TiVo with lifetime for $699 and then if it breaks 1 month outside of the warranty (13 months old) you have to buy another $299 TiVo and another $200 to transfer service to it.
> 
> So now, at year one plus one month, if you are unlucky your "lifetime" TiVo has cost you $1198.
> 
> .


but this is all assuming your Tivo is going to fail, and assuming you have not purchased an extended warranty, right? and back to my original point, if a Moxi breaks you have to pay to replace the Moxi right? It's not like you pay one fee for a Moxi and then for the rest of your life you have a Moxi


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

innocentfreak said:


> Many of the newer sets with internet functionality do. They have added things like Netflix, Skype, Amazon VOD, and Pandora to the Panasonic Viera Cast models.


Didn't Panasonic just piss off a bunch of existing customers by saying they would not update their old tv's to add Netflix, but the newer ones would?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10455655-1.html


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Mike-Mike said:


> but this is all assuming your Tivo is going to fail, and assuming you have not purchased an extended warranty, right? and back to my original point, if a Moxi breaks you have to pay to replace the Moxi right? It's not like you pay one fee for a Moxi and then for the rest of your life you have a Moxi


There is a bit of mis-info here so I will try and clear that up. Both TiVo and moxi charge to repair an out of warranty box. TiVo replaces the box with a refurb for $150, and Moxi charges $75+parts.

Since TiVo always replaces the box, lifetime service must be transferred to the replacement, and it is TiVo's policy to charge $200 to transfer service to the replacement if you have had the lifetime service for 3 years old or more.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Resist said:


> I'm still confused why Tivo doesn't have a built in network adapter yet. I got what Tom Rogers said about trying to keep the cost of Tivo down, but come on, how much more would it cost? Especially considering I just purchased a USB 802.11n network adapter for $30. I know they can build it in for much less.


Last time I looked the Broadcom N wireless chip assembly was about $4 in quantity.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> Ok I'll bite. Where are you looking where it looks like "if it breaks after the first year you have to buy a new one at full price"? Please be specific and include a url to the policy you are referring to.


The warranty is only good for a year. The policy was linked to in someone else's post. Based on Samo's post it appears Moxy has an out-of-warranty repair policy like TiVo, but neither is listed anywhere.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

So if the Moxi box breaks after two years and is not fixable, you have to buy a brand new box (for whatever the going rate is) with 'lifetime' service costs built into the cost. TiVo gives you a new box for $149 and transfers the lifetime service for free.

After 4 years it would be the same as above, except TiVo would now transfer your lifetime to a another box for $200 - after paying $149 for for the refurbished box.

Assuming I am right (I will be corrected if I am wrong  ), a TiVo is less expensive to replace in both instances or am I missing something?


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

jmpage2 said:


> When leasing you are always driving a vehicle with a warranty so you don't have to worry about repair costs or having a vehicle that won't get you to your job which pays you very well.
> 
> Leasing "locks in" the resale of the vehicle. If you lease an SUV and gas goes up to $5 you don't have to worry about the horrendous resale hit on a car that gets 20 mpg.


You're assuming you keep the car in tip-top shape. If you get into an accident in that car, you either fix it back to as new as possible or you take the hit on the resale value. It doesn't lock in any resale at all unless the auto is returned in tip-top shape.

Business uses are fine for leasing, but for the average Joe...leasing gets you into a car you probably can't afford to buy to begin with.


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

jmpage2 said:


> From a purely financial perspective the smartest thing to do is purchase a 2-3 year old used car with extremely high reliability and drive it for 15 years, but how many people want to drive something until the wheels fall off?


That would be me. The trick is to buy something you'll enjoy driving.

The big difference, back in 1986, was that I didn't want to buy a 2- or 3-year old Mustang GT convertible; there was too much chance that it would have been abused by someone who didn't intend to keep it. So I bought a brand new one instead.

I kept that car for 20 years (but only 120,000 miles). Four years ago I replaced it, and this time I did buy a 2-year old low-mileage used car. I expect to keep this one for a while, too.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

nrc said:


> I'm not aware of any TV manufacturers who routinely, automatically update their firmware for you or continue to add features for years after your purchase.
> If you upgrade Windows (Vista to 7 for instance) or even if you just want to add features (Home Basic to Home Premium for instance) you will pay money. If you want support beyond initial installation and forum support you'll pay for that as well.


Again, horrible analogies here. When you buy a Tivo, you MUST pay (at minimum) a monthly fee to actually use it, or it's a doorstop. Many people will not know this when shopping at Best Buy.

When you buy a TV or a Windows PC (or most any other consumer product), you don't have to pay anything extra to use it. Everything you mentioned is optional.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> Last time I looked the Broadcom N wireless chip assembly was about $4 in quantity.


And that chip assembly relies heavily on the CPU for a good bit of the work. Fine for a PC with a high end CPU but death on MRV for a TiVo with a CPU already at the edge with the other work it does.
The TiVo adapter is designed to offload any CPU work and do it within its chips. That whole design would have to go inside the TiVo and add a significant mfg. cost.

Anyone know if Moxi has included WiFi?



slowbiscuit said:


> When you buy a Tivo, you MUST pay (at minimum) a monthly fee to actually use it, or it's a doorstop. Many people will not know this when shopping at Best Buy.


only because they did not read the writing that is on the box itself


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> And that chip assembly relies heavily on the CPU for a good bit of the work. Fine for a PC with a high end CPU but death on MRV for a TiVo with a CPU already at the edge with the other work it does.
> The TiVo adapter is designed to offload any CPU work and do it within its chips. That whole design would have to go inside the TiVo and add a significant mfg. cost.


I certainly agree with you in principle, but you overstate that. It's nice that TiVo offloads the CPU by running an IP stack in their wireless dongles, but it only saves a tiny bit of CPU (no doubt worth doing for the CPU-strapped S2s and S3s). However, it should be pointed out that TiVo _does_ run an IP stack for people like me who connect it to the network via Ethernet and it still has the CPU to do what it does over that connection faster than via a wireless dongle.

There are a plethora of inexpensive devices on the market with low powered CPUs which implement WiFi (my freakin' Zune, for god sake). It's just not that much of a burden, even for the S3, and the Premiere has a far more powerful CPU.

But as you say, it costs a hell of a lot more to put WiFi on a board than the $4 that the chip adds to the bill of materials and by the time that's amplified into the price of the product, it becomes something that I don't want to pay for. I don't use WiFi in my TiVo and I don't want to pay for it and I don't want to subsidize the cost for the people who want it.

Anyway, the profit margins on that overpriced wireless dongle that I ain't gonna buy are high, contributing to TiVo's financial health, something of which I approve .


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mikeyts said:


> I certainly agree with you in principle, but you overstate that. It's nice that TiVo offloads the CPU by running an IP stack in their wireless dongles, but it only saves a tiny bit of CPU (no doubt worth doing for the CPU-strapped S2s and S3s).


 we of course never saw what effect on the S3 might be - but I had a linksys USB adapter and others had various wirless adpaters they used - it was unquestioned that the TiVo wireless adapter sped up MRV dramatically over 3rd party devices. The IP stack was not the only piece of the puzzle - lets not forget WEP and then WPA security that was added in.


> There are a plethora of inexpensive devices on the market with low powered CPUs which implement WiFi (my freakin' Zune, for god sake). It's just not that much of a burden, even for the S3, and the Premiere has a far more powerful CPU.


 last I checked the Zune was not recording 2 media streams while also possibly MRVing another stream out and downloading something else. If it was just guide data and OS updates then yes - some Wifi chips would have worked OK. Then you do note that it is just not the cost of the chips that would have been my further point on this.

I just wanted to clarify things away from the simplistic statement


solutionsetc said:


> Last time I looked the Broadcom N wireless chip assembly was about $4 in quantity.


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## RealityCheck (Feb 15, 2007)

Maybe TiVo should pick a better CPU than MIPS. PowerPCs are more powerful and can be purchased in quantity cheaply. I've read CELL can be acquired under ~$20 in 1K quantities. CELL can decode 48 MPEG-2 HD streams in the SPEs, and is more than powerful to tackle other tasks.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RealityCheck said:


> Maybe TiVo should pick a better CPU than MIPS..


I am sure TiVo put very little thought into the whole thing.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

rifleman69 said:


> You're assuming you keep the car in tip-top shape. If you get into an accident in that car, you either fix it back to as new as possible or you take the hit on the resale value. It doesn't lock in any resale at all unless the auto is returned in tip-top shape.
> 
> Business uses are fine for leasing, but for the average Joe...leasing gets you into a car you probably can't afford to buy to begin with.


Not quite sure what you mean here. If anything major happens you would just go through your insurance to get it straightened out.

As far as minor wear and tear, I've never been dinged turning in a leased car if it had some minor stuff wrong with it. A lot of the top brands (Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, etc) will give you about $1000 towards any of those incidentals at turn in, such as a tear in a seat or the tires being shot.

Generally speaking leasing is best for people who take very good care of the car, get the routine servicing done and don't put a ton of miles on it.

If you don't fit into this category or if you can only afford the car by leasing it (as opposed to paying cash or financing most of it) then yes, leasing probably isn't very smart financially.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> we of course never saw what effect on the S3 might be - but I had a linksys USB adapter and others had various wirless adpaters they used - it was unquestioned that the TiVo wireless adapter sped up MRV dramatically over 3rd party devices. The IP stack was not the only piece of the puzzle - lets not forget WEP and then WPA security that was added in.


I wasn't talking about using a 3rd party wireless device; I was stating that TiVo can get more throughput when downloading through a direct wired connection (at least the S3 can--I never owned an S2, going directly from an "S1" to S3 ), indicating that CPU for running an IP stack is _not_ the bottleneck.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

slowbiscuit said:


> Again, horrible analogies here. When you buy a Tivo, you MUST pay (at minimum) a monthly fee to actually use it, or it's a doorstop. Many people will not know this when shopping at Best Buy.
> 
> When you buy a TV or a Windows PC (or most any other consumer product), you don't have to pay anything extra to use it. Everything you mentioned is optional.


Do you imagine that these companies are giving you something for free? No, they're building in the cost of the hardware, software, and service in the upfront cost. TiVo gives you the option of paying up front or paying in installments.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Which doesn't change the fact the the analogy is simply wrong, but y'all can twist it any way you want I suppose.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mikeyts said:


> I wasn't talking about using a 3rd party wireless device; I was stating that TiVo can get more throughput when downloading through a direct wired connection (at least the S3 can--I never owned an S2, going directly from an "S1" to S3 ), indicating that CPU for running an IP stack is _not_ the bottleneck.


correct - nor is the IP stack a bottleneck with wireless.

take this statement on TCP/IP from wiki


> Microcontroller firmware in the network adapter typically handles link issues, *supported by driver software in the operational system.* Non-programmable analog and digital electronics are normally in charge of the physical components in the Link Layer, typically using an application-specific integrated circuit (ASIC) chipset for each network interface or other physical standard.


what TiVo did, to the best of my understanding was take the bolded part and have that work in chips on the adapter versus as a driver run by the OS. This takes that burden off the TiVo CPU and allows TiVo to not have to deal with drivers from various vendors or worse, have to write the drivers in LINUX for various hardware devices. Add in that wireless throws in an extra security protocol and the savings to the CPU can be significant.


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