# Single M-Card on Series 3



## avmike (Jun 12, 2007)

What's the latest on full M-card support? I just lost my "grandfathered" billing plan on Comcast. Now they are screwing me on Cablecard fees.

Thanks,
Mike


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

The latest breaking news from Tivo is absolute silence.
Almost as if they didn't give a damn, since they already have our money.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

The S3 still treats an m-card the same as an s-card, single card = single tuner, 2 cards = dual tuners for cable.

Sorry to hear that your Comcast is giving a lousy deal, you may want to be sure that they haven't screwed something up, since in most areas the 1st CableCARD is free, and the 2nd is under $5.00 (not saying that's everywhere however, but in most regions)

Tivo has been pretty upfront that the HD has m-card support right out of the box. Everything has pointed to it being a bit harder to implement m-card support with the chipset in the S3 then Tivo had anticipated. (not as bizzy says.. they got our money and don't care)

Diane


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## rucka (May 15, 2007)

We just left ComC***.

If Verizon FIOS TV is in your area, we just got a great deal from them doing their Triple Play deal. The HD pic is terrific and there are more coming in Q2 2008 (he said hopefully). Best of Luck bro...


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> Everything has pointed to it being a bit harder to implement m-card support with the chipset in the S3 then Tivo had anticipated. (not as bizzy says.. they got our money and don't care)
> 
> Diane


'A bit harder' doesn't mean that bizzy isn't right.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

But it does mean that what bizzy said was rude, and does nothing to foster the kind of relationship between TCF and TiVo that would benefit us customers the most.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

dig_duggler said:


> 'A bit harder' doesn't mean that bizzy isn't right.


On the other hand.. an additional $2.50 a month isn't killing me, and if I had to give up something for m-card support, I can't think of anything that comes to mind. Tivo has bigger fish to fry in this game.

I'd be more upset with Comcast that I was in one of the regions where they are screwing over people on CableCARDS.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

bicker said:


> But it does mean that what bizzy said was rude, and does nothing to foster the kind of relationship between TCF and TiVo that would benefit us customers the most.


I don't mean to be rude or obtuse, but what relationship are you talking about?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

bizzy said:


> I don't mean to be rude or obtuse, but what relationship are you talking about?


Several TiVo employees have helped TCF members having specific problems, directly. We also have gotten advance notice of impending changes to offerings, and have had the chance to ask questions, as long as the discourse remained civil. The more we pollute the pond, the less TiVo fish will swim here.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

I agree, but there are several huge threads here about serious problems with both the THD and S3 that are curiously devoid of their presence, even though the threads are several months old. If the relationship is supposed to positive to us as customers, I'm questioning the value you perceive if our net benefit is the occasional cherry-picking.

Not trying to be cranky. I am honestly wondering when you think its OK for us as customers to cry "uncle".


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

bizzy said:


> Not trying to be cranky.


You could have fooled me. 

Seriously, I don't see a serious question in your message. If you have to ask why people should be polite and shouldn't be rude, then no amount of explanation on my part is going to make a difference.


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## Luke M (Nov 5, 2002)

bicker said:


> Several TiVo employees have helped TCF members having specific problems, directly. We also have gotten advance notice of impending changes to offerings, and have had the chance to ask questions, as long as the discourse remained civil. The more we pollute the pond, the less TiVo fish will swim here.


You're a prolific poster with a high percentage of negative and/or useless posts. Take your own advice.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Actually, my posts are generally positive; that's perhaps why you don't like them. And I believe my posts are all useful (except for the ones where I have to defend myself from inane personal attacks, like this one), and many of yours (such as this one from you, here) are useless. So where does that really get us to discuss that?


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

bicker said:


> Several TiVo employees have helped TCF members having specific problems, directly. We also have gotten advance notice of impending changes to offerings, and have had the chance to ask questions, as long as the discourse remained civil. The more we pollute the pond, the less TiVo fish will swim here.


I have to disagree. Tivo posts here and helps out here when it is advantageous for them to do so. It is pretty much a one sided conversation. It's a business and this is a marketing outlet. It's also great for support from other users with similar problems.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

You're wrong: It isn't one-sided when a customer gets help.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

bicker said:


> Several TiVo employees have helped TCF members having specific problems, directly. We also have gotten advance notice of impending changes to offerings, and have had the chance to ask questions, as long as the discourse remained civil. The more we pollute the pond, the less TiVo fish will swim here.


And it does seem to be the case that we have has less and less participation over time.

Al


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## mchief (Sep 10, 2005)

bicker said:


> You're wrong: It isn't one-sided when a customer gets help.


If you will notice the user name, you will have some insight in his comments. Normally just disagreeing with whatever is posted.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

You're incorrect. I actually got a very significant Closed Captioning bug resolved as I suggested. My wife is hearing impaired and couldn't enjoy television that well without Closed Captions. Getting a remedy for her surely wasn't one-sided.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

mchief said:


> If you will notice the user name, you will have some insight in his comments. Normally just disagreeing with whatever is posted.





bicker said:


> You're incorrect.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

I gave up hope that Tivo would fix the S3 to work with a single M-card the day I heard Tivo was discontinuing the S3. I'll grant that I could be wrong--Tivo may go the extra mile for those early adopters. Only time will tell.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I think you're right, only time will tell. I have no expectations regarding whether we'll ever get M-card support. I sure hope the S3 doesn't get relegated to the same status as the S1 now has, too soon, but that's just my hope, and worth as much as hopes are generally worth.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> Tivo has been pretty upfront that the HD has m-card support right out of the box. Everything has pointed to it being a bit harder to implement m-card support with the chipset in the S3 then Tivo had anticipated. (not as bizzy says.. they got our money and don't care)


Up front?

They openly claimed that the S3 would support a single M-Card with a software update.

heck, the back of the thing even says that it supports single M-Cards.

"Everything has pointed" is unofficial speculation. TiVo has yet to state publicly why the S3 still doesn't have M-Card support.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> Up front?
> "Everything has pointed" is unofficial speculation. TiVo has yet to state publicly why the S3 still doesn't have M-Card support.


Correct, TCF is not my only source of Tivo information, there's been a few discussions outside TCF as to why M-Card support might be difficult on the S3 as compared to the HD where it came out of the box.

Can I pull you up an external thread? nope, went by it, read it, absorbed it, and was sharing.

The S3 was out before the M-Card was common, I don't find it out of the ordinary that it's hardware platform might have issues they hadn't planned for.
YMMV


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> The S3 was out before the M-Card was common, I don't find it out of the ordinary that it's hardware platform might have issues they hadn't planned for.
> YMMV


It wasn't just that the M-Card wasn't common, the spec on the M-Card hadn't even been finalized when the S3 came out. That said I don't know why exactly, if the S3 can use the M-Card in single mode, it can't use it in multi-mode. The only reason I can come up with given the extreme amount of time it's been since the M-Card spec was finalized is that the S3 is physically incapable of running in M-Cards in multi-mode. But if that is the case you would think TiVo would just say so instead of saying "we are exploring support of M-Cards in multi-stream mode for the Series3 HD DVR."

The wording of the sentence leads me to believe that TiVo simply tried to enable multi-stream mode on the M-Card, failed for whatever reason and didn't research into it any further. It also apparently isn't a very high priority for them and with the S3 being discontinued I doubt the priority will change for the better. So if you have a S3, my opinion is to just get used to paying extra for more cableCARDS.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

bicker said:


> You're wrong: It isn't one-sided when a customer gets help.


To be honest, I really don't think they help very many customers at all. Yes, they show up here and there and announce new features or possibly even bug-fixes that are coming but I rarely see any real help. Maybe I just missed those postings though.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Here is one success story (the one I referred to earlier):

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5249444#post5249444


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

OK, so the score is now officially you, versus everyone posting a problem on these two threads:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=378311
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=371717

I think that redefines the term 'marginal utility'.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

bicker said:


> Here is one success story (the one I referred to earlier):
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5249444#post5249444


Perhaps I'm missing something, but this is supposed to be an example of Tivo proactively working with users here to fix a problem? I don't see any input from Tivo in that thread at all, just some data, not being able to PM TivoJerry and a report at the end it was fixed (and nothing to suggest a correlation between the two).


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> I don't find it out of the ordinary that it's hardware platform might have issues they hadn't planned for.


I completely agree.

But since they told people in the beginning that it would support it, I think it's reasonable to expect an official response from TiVo as to what the issue is.

It's been a year and a half almost....


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

What more can I provide you other than my attestation that TiVoJerry did indeed receive the necessary data from some of us, working with us via PMs (there was one day his PM mailbox was full), and that led to a timely resolution to the problem.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Worth noting that the thread you gave as an example doesn't actually support your argument that Tivo is proactively trying to help here, rather that everyone provided data sets for bug fixing. That is a great resource for them, I'm not really sure how that correlates to our 'behavior' on the forums. Their software has bugs, people here actively identify their machines as an example of the issue (for which they can get logs) which can help in identification and resolution of the problem (sometimes). You can pollute the waters all you want, if that ability is still around for them they will use it as it benefits all of their customers.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

bicker said:


> But it does mean that what bizzy said was rude, and does nothing to foster the kind of relationship between TCF and TiVo that would benefit us customers the most.


I'd additionally like to point out that calling as I see it isn't rude.

I love my Tivo and I think the product has huge potential. That doesn't mean I need to play kissy kiss with Tivo and avert my eyes when I see a problem.

What value is customer feedback if we're all afraid to point out bugs and misfeatures?


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

When the issue of FF jumping around with the original S3 software (the minutes actually jumping backwards occasionally), several members on the thread were contacted directly to provide instrumented data for Tivo. This was driven by activity in this forum. The problem was resolved rather quickly and out with the next release of the software.

Al


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

That was what, a year ago?


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

bizzy said:


> That was what, a year ago?


4-10-07.

The issue was specific to Fios.

Al


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

I still think we are seeing less interaction than we used to.

Al


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

bizzy said:


> That was what, a year ago?


And I still think I see more interaction from Tivo than any other consumer product I've ever used.

Al


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

acvthree said:


> And I still think I see more interaction from Tivo than any other consumer product I've ever used.


The company I work for sells a consumer product, and we _pay a staff of reps_ to maintain a presence on forums that _we operate_.

We're also a fraction of the size that Tivo is, organizationally, though we do have hundreds of thousands of customers.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Just out of curiosity, how big is your company?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

bizzy said:


> The company I work for sells a consumer product, and we _pay a staff of reps_ to maintain a presence on forums that _we operate_.
> 
> We're also a fraction of the size that Tivo is, organizationally, though we do have hundreds of thousands of customers.


I've found there's normally an inverse ratio between the size of a company to how interactive they are with their customers. A smaller company needs to be more interactive on a basis that they need to keep customers more than a larger company does.

I will note that, according to posts they've made, the TiVo employees who frequent these forums do so on their own time. I will agree though that there have been less posts made by TiVo employees recently than in the past.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

That's an interesting observation. It meshes well with my experience. When I worked for IBM and for AT&T there were very strict procedures that had to be followed to get permission to even post something pre-written online. Responding as an employee to postings in an interactive manner -- gosh -- I think the lawyers would have had a coronary. By comparison, when I've worked for medium-sized companies, I've been allowed to post online, within certain parameters. And with the small companies I've worked for, they encourage me to.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

bicker said:


> Just out of curiosity, how big is your company?


Less than 200 people.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

morac said:


> I've found there's normally an inverse ratio between the size of a company to how interactive they are with their customers. A smaller company needs to be more interactive on a basis that they need to keep customers more than a larger company does.


Not so sure about this. I can think of many examples of small companies that do not engage their customers well, and large companies that do. Electronic Arts and Apple both maintain web forums where their staff routinely interact with customers.



morac said:


> I will note that, according to posts they've made, the TiVo employees who frequent these forums do so on their own time. I will agree though that there have been less posts made by TiVo employees recently than in the past.


I agree, and I do recognize that the Tivo employees who post here are most likely doing so in their spare time. Why Tivo doesn't leverage this opportunity with fulltime community representatives is anyone's guess.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

bizzy said:


> Less than 200 people.


So when you said that your company was a fraction of the size of TiVo, you were referring to the fraction 2/5, not 1/100 or 1/1000, right? (I just want to make sure we're all on the same page, mathematically, here.)


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

bizzy said:


> The company I work for sells a consumer product, and we _pay a staff of reps_ to maintain a presence on forums that _we operate_.
> 
> We're also a fraction of the size that Tivo is, organizationally, though we do have hundreds of thousands of customers.


I should have said "most" and not "any". I was being sloppy.

There are companies at least as interactive and some that are much more.

Al


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

bizzy said:


> Not so sure about this. I can think of many examples of small companies that do not engage their customers well, and large companies that do. Electronic Arts and Apple both maintain web forums where their staff routinely interact with customers.


There are exceptions, but I've found that not to be the norm.

Also note that the TiVo employees who post here are in a much more knowledgeable position when compared to posters at other larger company forums. Comparing an Apple employee posting on their forums to the TiVo employees who post here is like comparing a level 1 CSR with a program manager. A more equal comparison would be to compare the Apple poster's to the basic CSR you get when you call up TiVo's support line.


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## Luke M (Nov 5, 2002)

bicker said:


> Actually, my posts are generally positive; that's perhaps why you don't like them. And I believe my posts are all useful (except for the ones where I have to defend myself from inane personal attacks, like this one), and many of yours (such as this one from you, here) are useless. So where does that really get us to discuss that?


Since you are accusing people of polluting the forum, it seems only fair to comment on the quality your posts. Actually the fact that they are mostly useless is not what is grating; it's the smug tone.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

With respect, it is time to move on from this subject. This isn't what this, or any other thread, is about on this forum. You don't like me. I'm okay with that. Ignore me. Let the threads get back to being about the technology and not about me. I'm really not that interesting.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

bicker said:


> With respect, it is time to move on from this subject.


What I'd really love an honest answer to is; Will there ever be support for two tuners with one cableCARD on the Series 3? A simple YES or NO from TiVo would be great.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Unfortunately, we cannot dictate the questions and the answers. "YES" and "NO" are not responsible responses from any business. I suspect that if you get an answer, it will translated into a more business-appropriate reply: either "That is coming in the next release," (which is sort of like your "YES"); or, "There are no current plans but that may be provided in a future release," (which is not really like your "NO" -- companies rarely say NO unless doing so explicitly will benefit their bottom-line).

I wish you luck getting your answer. As an S3 owner with two S-cards, I surely would like to know, myself, but don't really care to do what is needed to get a reply from TiVo.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

It could also be something like this in reality:

"That item is on the requirements list with a priority. That item may be completed and included in some future release depending on the priority of other items on the requirements list and their priority. Requirements are always being added and deleted. Priorities of requirments are constantly changing. Any unknown difficulties with a given requirement, including this one, can change the priority and likelihood of completion at any time. Very few requirements are impossible, but the level of difficulty can effectively make the completion of those requirements unlikely.".

You may approach a Heisenburg type phenomenom. By the time you completely review the requirements list and provide a yes or no with a probability, the probability has changed. It would be impossible to provide a yes or no probability and know the true yes or no probability at the same time.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

Do not try to bend the spoon; that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth. [What truth?] There is no spoon. Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

pl1 said:


> What I'd really love an honest answer to is; Will there ever be support for two tuners with one cableCARD on the Series 3? A simple YES or NO from TiVo would be great.


+1.

Just tell us, TiVo.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

bicker said:


> Unfortunately, we cannot dictate the questions and the answers. "YES" and "NO" are not responsible responses from any business.


There is a simple NO answer if the hardware can not support it. If the answer is "NO, YOU WILL NEVER HAVE MULTI-TUNER SUPPORT IN YOUR S-3", at least we can make future decisions based on the right information.

It looks like the cablecos are raising their prices for cableCARDs (and/or A/O's). If it gets too ridiculous, I may just want to buy a THD and transfer another life.

But, if the S-3 does have a chance of having multi-tuner support, I will just stick with my two S-3's.

So, how about (A) "No, it will never happen" or (B) "It's capable of it, but the software has to be written for it"?

EDIT: NO, YOUR SERIES 3 WILL NEVER SUPPORT THE USE OF ONE CABLECARD FOR TWO TUNERS.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Uh, my S3 does have multi-tuner support already.  I just need two S-cards.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

bicker said:


> Uh, my S3 does have multi-tuner support already.  I just need two S-cards.


Read the topic heading. "*Single M-Card on Series 3 *" and two M-Cards work just as well.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

bicker said:


> Unfortunately, we cannot dictate the questions and the answers.


Actually, if we're the ones asking a question, we are quite free to determine its content.



> "YES" and "NO" are not responsible responses from any business.


As pl1 said above, if they know that the hardware cannot support it, there is nothing to prevent them from answering "no." You're right of course that answering "yes" would become a problem for them if they couldn't or didn't follow through. But it would still be useful to get an answer like pl1's A or B.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

pl1 said:


> Read the topic heading. "*Single M-Card on Series 3 *" and two M-Cards work just as well.


Yeah, I did read the topic heading, but that wasn't what the message I was replying to said.



Brainiac 5 said:


> Actually, if we're the ones asking a question, we are quite free to determine its content.


True. I should have added, "... and reasonably expect an answer."



Brainiac 5 said:


> As pl1 said above, if they know that the hardware cannot support it, there is nothing to prevent them from answering "no."


Also true, but my suspicion is that that is not the case.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

[about knowing that multi-stream M-card support can't be added to the S3]


bicker said:


> Also true, but my suspicion is that that is not the case.


I hope you're right!

Admittedly it would be a little tricky to properly craft the "yes" answer: "We don't know if it's possible to support this feature, and if it is possible, we don't know if we'll ever do it anyway. Does that clear things up?" 

Although in reality, all we'd want is for them to reaffirm that what they say on their web site is still true - they're looking into it, and don't know one way or another yet.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

As a guy who sometimes places wagers, I'd lay a 20 on never seeing S3 M-Card support.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

davezatz said:


> As a guy who sometimes places wagers, I'd lay a 20 on never seeing S3 M-Card support.


You would lose that bet, strictly speaking, since the S-3 already supports the M-Card. I have two of them in one of my units. It's just that the S3 can not currently provide multiple tuners with one M-Card.

At this point, I would just like to know if it IS or IS NOT possible. That would be a great start.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Tivo has to work on the SDV solution and on the problem with the video disappearing. They may also want to work on improving MRV speed.

I'm not sure how much resources they will be spending on an orphaned unit. Saying "NO" would subject tivo to a lot of complaints and possible requests for a refund. Saying YES would then subject to a lot of customers asking WHEN. A YES answer would also lead to complaints if the answer became NO AFTER the software was tested. Tivo has to work with Motorola cards and SA cards. Tivo has to work with multiple cable systems.

I wouldn't be shocked if tivo waited until they had more real world experience with M cards and the TivoHD before deciding if they want to proceed to include M card support. M card, in single stream mode, isn't really M card support.

Look at it this way. M card support may allow some customers to save a few $. SDV support is necessary if tivo is going to continue to receive HD channels.

My guess is we'll see some kind of beta test announcement *if/when tivo is closer to a software version for M card support.*


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## demon (Nov 15, 2006)

pl1 said:


> You would lose that bet, strictly speaking, since the S-3 already supports the M-Card. I have two of them in one of my units. It's just that the S3 can not currently provide multiple tuners with one M-Card.


That's not "M-Card support". One of the main features of the M-Card is that in an S-Card capable device, it reverts to S-Mode (i.e., so that it'll look to the host device just like an S-Card). That's like saying a USB 1.1 controller is USB 2.0 compliant because you can plug in a USB 2.0 device; technically yes, it works, and it even falls under the spec, but only because the device falls back to be compatible with the "old ways", not because the host has any special knowledge of that specific device, or its advanced features.



pl1 said:


> At this point, I would just like to know if it IS or IS NOT possible. That would be a great start.


Who knows? Only the maker of the CableCARD controller chip knows for sure, and it sounds like they're not talking to TiVo about how to make it go. :/


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

pl1 said:


> You would lose that bet, strictly speaking, since the S-3 already supports the M-Card. I have two of them in one of my units.


Don't be obtuse, it's perfectly clear what I meant.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

demon said:


> That's not "M-Card support". One of the main features of the M-Card is that in an S-Card capable device, it reverts to S-Mode (i.e., so that it'll look to the host device just like an S-Card). That's like saying a USB 1.1 controller is USB 2.0 compliant because you can plug in a USB 2.0 device; technically yes, it works, and it even falls under the spec, but only because the device falls back to be compatible with the "old ways", not because the host has any special knowledge of that specific device, or its advanced features.


Actually initially M-Card's didn't work in an S3 despite the fallback mode. One of the 9.x updates fixed that. It is good they fixed the M-Card support because many cable companies don't stock S-Cards anymore.

The more appropriate terminology is M-Card operating in M-Mode.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

davezatz said:


> Don't be obtuse, it's perfectly clear what I meant.


You may think you are being "perfectly clear" when in fact you are not being "perfectly clear". If someone reads your post, they may just think that the Series 3 can not use an M-Card since you said:


> I'd lay a 20 on never seeing S3 M-Card support.


In fact, you CAN use M-Cards. I was really trying to clarify this for someone who might read this and think differently. No slight intended against you.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

sfhub said:


> Actually initially M-Card's didn't work in an S3 despite the fallback mode. One of the 9.x updates fixed that. It is good they fixed the M-Card support because many cable companies don't stock S-Cards anymore.
> 
> The more appropriate terminology is M-Card operating in M-Mode.


Exactly. AAMOF, a quick look at the tivo.com support page entitled "*M-Card Support*",


> Currently, the Series3 HD DVR will support M-Cards in single-stream mode, which means that the DVR requires two (2) CableCARDs to run in dual-tuner mode. The DVR must also be running software version 8.0.1c or later. (S-Cards are supported in all software versions.) Your Series3 HD DVR may have shipped with an earlier version of the software installed. The software will be updated automatically, but not until the DVR completes Guided Setup for the first time, and then downloads and indexes the full 14 days of Guide data immediately after Guided Setup.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

I like the previously mentioned analogy regarding USB.

Can we all at least agree that M-Card support on the S3 is incomplete?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

pl1 said:


> You may think you are being "perfectly clear" when in fact you are not being "perfectly clear". If someone reads your post, they may just think that the Series 3 can not use an M-Card since you said: In fact, you CAN use M-Cards. I was really trying to clarify this for someone who might read this and think differently. No slight intended against you.


He was perfectly clear to me...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

And me.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

bicker said:


> And me.


Ok, let me re-phrase it then. It may not be clear to a potential HD TiVo buyer who must have cableCARDs installed. The fact is, the Series 3 "supports" M-Cards. It does not support two tuners with one card. So, if a potential buyer sees


> As a guy who sometimes places wagers, I'd lay a 20 on never seeing S3 M-Card support.


 he or she "may" conclude that you can not currently use an M-Card in a Series 3. That is all I was trying to clarify. HTH.

EDIT: The Series 3 does not support multiple streams:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cablecard



> MCards are backward compatible with current CableCARD devices. To older CableCARD devices that do not support multiple streams, the card appears to be a single stream card.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

pl1 said:


> Ok, let me re-phrase it then. It may not be clear to a potential HD TiVo buyer who must have cableCARDs installed. The fact is, the Series 3 "supports" M-Cards. It does not support two tuners with one card.


That's not true at all. The Series 3 does NOT support M-Cards. M-Cards just happen to be backwards compatible and still work in a single stream device.

In other words, the Series 3 DOESN'T support M-Cards. The M-Card supports single stream devices such as the Series 3.

(you were the one that started nitpicking... )


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## kylen (Oct 6, 2002)

I really hope TiVo is actually looking into this problem. It is really annoying that us early adopters cannot take advantage of the M-cards and cut our monthy costs. I am currently paying for 4 cards in my 2 tivos since the S3 cannot use just one of the m-cards for both tuners (as you can in the tivo HD).


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

kylen said:


> I really hope TiVo is actually looking into this problem. It is really annoying that us early adopters cannot take advantage of the M-cards and cut our monthy costs. I am currently paying for 4 cards in my 2 tivos since the S3 cannot use just one of the m-cards for both tuners (as you can in the tivo HD).


Don't quote me, but I recall reading somewhere that TiVo has decided *not* to update the S3 to allow true M-card use. Only single stream mode.


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## sommerfeld (Feb 26, 2006)

astrohip said:


> Don't quote me, but I recall reading somewhere that TiVo has decided *not* to update the S3 to allow true M-card use. Only single stream mode.


Currently, tivo.com still links to:


> We are exploring support of M-Cards in multi-stream mode for the Series3 HD DVR.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Ah, remember when they were exploring aac support? 

I hope I'm wrong, but it's not gonna happen.


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## chedlin (Apr 13, 2003)

Any updates on this after nearly a year? I just moved into Suddenlink territory and they want $5/mo per card, and that is just robbery.

I seem to remember the published specs on the TiVo series 3 indicated 1 m-card could be used. I bought this unit back in November 2006 and SDV promptly pushed me to drop cable and get SD via my old DirecTiVo and HD OTA, but I don't want to stay like this forever! I would like to add another HD tv and HD TiVo.

I transferred the lifetime service off my old series 1. I have used TiVo since May of 2000, but the HD offerings have me feeling trapped (There is not a single decent solution on the market, from anyone, unless you live in Verizon territory and get a TiVo HD!)


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

The update from TiVo a few months ago was a big "screw you." They have elected to ignore their early adopter supporters with a big middle finger and announced they couldn't be bothered to update the software on the Series 3 to support the MCard in multi stream mode.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

chedlin said:


> Any updates on this after nearly a year? I just moved into Suddenlink territory and they want $5/mo per card, and that is just robbery.


The official response was basically it's too difficult to implement so they're not going to even try. So if you want to use a single M-card you'll need to get an HD or XL.

This is no where near the best solution (or even a good one), but it's all there is for now. On the plus side, if you do go that route, the S3 has very good resale value if you choose to get rid of it.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

pkscout said:


> The update from TiVo a few months ago was a big "screw you." They have elected to ignore their early adopter supporters with a big middle finger and announced they couldn't be bothered to update the software on the Series 3 to support the MCard in multi stream mode.


They announced no such thing.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

ciper said:


> I like the previously mentioned analogy regarding USB.
> 
> Can we all at least agree that M-Card support on the S3 is incomplete?


I agree. But when I recently chose the Series 3, I knew what i was buying. Comcast charges me an extra $1.50/mo, and I still bought it for both the THX and seeing the title of what was recording. If TiVo upgrades, fine, but I don't have a chip on my shoulder about the need for two cards. 
Joe


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> They announced no such thing.


I'm disinterested in searching, but TiVoPony posted right on this board that TiVo considered MCard support on the S3 such a low priority that it wasn't going to get done.

You may believe it or not as you chose. You may search this board to verify or not as you chose. It will not change the facts.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showpost.php?p=6598668&postcount=15



> As I explained in April, this is a risky development proposition. I will never say never, because there are very few absolutes (except death and taxes of course). But it's very, very unlikely.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> They announced no such thing.


Not in so many words, but yeah... that's pretty much what TiVoPony said.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showpost.php?p=6598668&postcount=15


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

pkscout said:


> I'm disinterested in searching, but TiVoPony posted right on this board that TiVo considered MCard support on the S3 such a low priority that it wasn't going to get done.
> 
> You may believe it or not as you chose. You may search this board to verify or not as you chose. It will not change the facts.





sinanju said:


> Not in so many words, but yeah... that's pretty much what TiVoPony said.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showpost.php?p=6598668&postcount=15


What TiVoPony said is VASTLY different than "they gave us the middle finger and announced they couldn't be bothered to update the software on the Series 3 to support the MCard in multi stream mode."

Sounds to me like they looked into it and the risks outweighed the benefits...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

pkscout said:


> I'm disinterested in searching, but TiVoPony posted right on this board that TiVo considered MCard support on the S3 such a low priority that it wasn't going to get done.


So you agree that Adam was correct, that TiVo did *not* say what *you *accused them of staying. Why the #&%* did you accuse them of doing so in the first place if you knew you were wrong?


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> What TiVoPony said is VASTLY different than "they gave us the middle finger and announced they couldn't be bothered to update the software on the Series 3 to support the MCard in multi stream mode."


Hence my statement, "not in so many words," which is far more accurate than, "nothing of the sort."


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

One comment respectfully explains reality; the other comment is patently disrespectful. "Nothing of the sort" actually applies far better than "not in so many words".


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

bicker said:


> One comment respectfully explains reality; the other comment is patently disrespectful. "Nothing of the sort" actually applies far better than "not in so many words".


Not only the respectful/disrespectful, Pony stated the proposition was very risk while the pkscout's blatant lie posted above implies TiVo is just too lazy.

I'm in the "Tivo said no such thing" camp and pkscout's claims are ridiculously inflammatory fabrications.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Of course, at the end of the day, semantics and original or revised implications don't matter. The bottom line is that M-Card support hasn't come to the S3. And likely won't. That's the price of being an early adopter. (Fortunately, my Comcast franchise isn't billing me for CableCARDs. And I'm about ready to fire the cable company anyway.)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

davezatz said:


> Of course, at the end of the day, semantics and original or revised implications don't matter.


I have to disagree. There are some folks who clearly think that by fostering, in others, dissatisfaction and disappointment, and often even unfounded expectations, that they are helping themselves. That _does_ matter.



davezatz said:


> The bottom line is that M-Card support hasn't come to the S3. And likely won't. That's the price of being an early adopter.


Indeed.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

Hey bicker, 

Since the number of people who own an S3 is extremely small compared to the number of THD (including XL) users wouldn't you agree it's in TiVo's best interest to focus on changes to the THD and not spend the extra time "porting" them to the S3? That should get new features finished sooner and give TiVo more time to focus on additional features right?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Yes, I agree completely.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

So what if,,,
TiVo stopped updating the S3 and focused on clear QAM mapping?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

To answer your question, you'll need to explain why would they do that. I'll await your reply (but I understand if you'd rather avoid answering because it would undercut whatever point you were trying to make).


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

ciper said:


> So what if,,,
> TiVo stopped updating the S3 and focused on clear QAM mapping?


I don't follow your logic. You started by saying that S3 development should take a back seat to HD development then use that to justify a pet development project that you desire but applies to both S3 and HD??? And you seem proud that somehow you think you tricked bicker into your pov.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Indeed. His whole diabolical scheme back-fired on him. Putting S3-specific development at a lower priority than development that will provide some value for the platform they're _currently _selling is very much consistent with my very-consistently expressed perspective on what TiVo should be doing. He obviously didn't think far-enough ahead, in his deception, because if he had he probably would have realized that QAM mapping not very important, and so it also would have a very low priority (which is what we've been telling him all along in this thread -- makes you wonder if some people are actually _reading_ what they're replying to).


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ciper said:


> Since the number of people who own an S3 is extremely small compared to the number of THD (including XL) users


Do you have a reference to support this notion? I would be very surprised to learn the number of XL systems exceeds the number of S3 systems, and indeed I would be very surprised to learn the number of S3 systems is small, let alone extremely small, compared to the number of THD systems, or even both put together.[/QUOTE]


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

lrhorer said:


> Do you have a reference to support this notion?


Likewise, features such as QAM remapping and M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers, both are in fact very small numbers of subscribers.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

sinanju said:


> Likewise, features such as QAM remapping and M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers, both are in fact very small numbers of subscribers.


The way that's written it implies the number of M-Card S3 users is small, not that the total number of S3 users as a whole (OTA, S-Cards, no-CCs) is small.

It is also comparing M-Card S3 users to the total number of TiVo service subscribers which includes Series 1, 2 and 3 users.

So there's no way to tell from that if there are more or less S3 users than HD users. I expect that eventually HD users will outnumber S3 users simply because the S3 isn't sold any more, but there's no indication of whether or not that has happened yet.


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## TroyB (Oct 20, 2006)

If Tivo were to stop doing everything on the S3 because it represented only a small portion of Tivo's sold and concentrate on the Tivo HD (XL) as suggested on here then they would be no better than the cable companies screwing Tivo users because cable card customers equal less than 1&#37; of all cable customers, so why bother pleasing them.

Is that how we really want Tivo to act?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

davezatz said:


> Of course, at the end of the day, semantics and original or revised implications don't matter. The bottom line is that M-Card support hasn't come to the S3. And likely won't. That's the price of being an early adopter. (Fortunately, my Comcast franchise isn't billing me for CableCARDs. And I'm about ready to fire the cable company anyway.)


In this particular case, however, TiVo publisly and officially stated multistream support would be available at a later date when the S3 was announced. Had they not so stated, then indeed S3 owners would have little or no right to an expectation for TiVo to provide said support. The fact they did publicly make such statements changes the picture. If in fact there is a good overriding technical reason why such support cannot practically be added, then the statements would seem to be an honest mistake made in good faith. Otherwise, the statements and a lack of follow through on Tivo's part represents a deceptive business practice. I have no idea which is in fact the case, and I am not going to have a cow over the issue in any case, but if it is a case of a failed good faith effort on TiVo's part, then it is indeed the sort of risk an early adopter should expect. If it is a matter of bad faith on TiVo's part, then it is not properly an expectation the buyer should have had, regardless of being an early adopter or not. That said, any product is vapor until it is sitting on the shelves waiting to be purchased or delivered, and users should not be surprised any time plans to deliver a product fall through. Would I like to save $9 a month on CableCards? You bet. Should TiVo make every reasonable effort to deliver the capability? Since they made the committment, yes. Should they do so irrespective of how much it might cost? No.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

morac said:


> The way that's written it implies the number of M-Card S3 users is small, not that the total number of S3 users as a whole (OTA, S-Cards, no-CCs) is small.


Um, no, he said:



ciper said:


> Since the number of people who own an S3 is extremely small compared to the number of THD (including XL) users


He clearly states he believes the number of S3 owners in total to be extremely small. I'm sure it's quite true the numer of M-card bearing S3s is small, but the fact is not really relevant. I'm sure the vast majority of S3 users with S-cards would request to have them switched out if multistream support were added to the S3.



morac said:


> It is also comparing M-Card S3 users to the total number of TiVo service subscribers which includes Series 1, 2 and 3 users.


Well, it is a little ambiguous as to whether he is lumping together THD and XL units, but otherwise I think it's pretty clear only Series III class units are under consideration. Neither QAM mapping nor multistream support apply to any other platform.



morac said:


> So there's no way to tell from that if there are more or less S3 users than HD users. I expect that eventually HD users will outnumber S3 users simply because the S3 isn't sold any more, but there's no indication of whether or not that has happened yet.


Absolutely. I suspect the THD (not the XL) may also be selling faster than the average over time for the S3, simply because the THD is cheaper. I would not be surprised to find the number of THD + XL units is close to the number of S3 units, perhaps more by now or still a bit less, but there is no way I believe the S3 consistes of less than 10% of the Series III base. Not that it is relevant, but I would be downright shocked to find the QAM mapping issue impacts anywhere nearly the numbers of subs as there are S3 owners.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

Hehe there was no diabolical plan, tricks, deception, or point I was trying to make. I was only giving bicker a hard time. I didn't think so much serious discussion would result from my single sentence reply!

I am curious about a couple things -
When was the S3 first available for sale
When was the THD first available
When did TiVo announce the S3 was no longer produced and when were new units no longer available from TiVo?
When did the THD XL become available?
When was the TiVo HD/HDXL available in Australia?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ciper said:


> I am curious about a couple things -
> When was the S3 first available for sale


September 2006



ciper said:


> When was the THD first available


Late 2007. I don't recall the month.



ciper said:


> When did TiVo announce the S3 was no longer produced


Several months ago.



ciper said:


> and when were new units no longer available from TiVo?


Refurbs may still be available, I'm not sure. New S3s have not been available for 3 or 4 months or so.



ciper said:


> When did the THD XL become available?


August 2008.



ciper said:


> When was the TiVo HD/HDXL available in Australia?


I have no idea.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TroyB said:


> Is that how we really want Tivo to act?


Since when is what you want relevant? Beyond that, who is "we"? If you're asking the question of TiVo's owners, you'll get a completely different answers than if you're asking the question of subscribers -- and remember, TiVo's first obligation, by law, is to its owners.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ciper said:


> Hehe there was no diabolical plan, tricks, deception, or point I was trying to make. I was only giving bicker a hard time.


Geez... you can even manage to be self-contradictory within just two sentences!


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> Um, no, he said:
> 
> He clearly states he believes the number of S3 owners in total to be extremely small. I'm sure it's quite true the numer of M-card bearing S3s is small, but the fact is not really relevant. I'm sure the vast majority of S3 users with S-cards would request to have them switched out if multistream support were added to the S3.


I wasn't referring to ciper's quote, I was referring to TiVoPony's quote:



TiVoPony said:


> Likewise, features such as QAM remapping and M-Card S3 support do not target a significant portion of our subscribers, both are in fact very small numbers of subscribers.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

morac said:


> The way that's written it implies the number of M-Card S3 users is small, not that the total number of S3 users as a whole (OTA, S-Cards, no-CCs) is small.
> 
> It is also comparing M-Card S3 users to the total number of TiVo service subscribers which includes Series 1, 2 and 3 users.
> 
> So there's no way to tell from that if there are more or less S3 users than HD users. I expect that eventually HD users will outnumber S3 users simply because the S3 isn't sold any more, but there's no indication of whether or not that has happened yet.


I agree. And, it only suggests the value of S3 owners in raw numbers. Early adopters can always count on high prices and rough sledding but, from a company's perspective, they can be counted on to provide sales that are critical early in a product's lifecycle. I would count myself as "disappointed" that TiVo didn't pull off M-Card support. Others clearly have different opinions. Too many disappointments and that's jeopardized.

This issue isn't a deciding factor for me one way or another -- just one factor of many when deciding whether a go-slowly approach might be better the next time around.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bicker said:


> Since when is what you want relevant?


Since he became a consumer, and consumers base their purchasing decisions in part on what they want. It is also relevant since the time it became true his expressed opinion, especially in concert with many others, may well in some cases tip the balance one way or the other in how a market proceeds. It is also relevant since the inception of U.S. Constitution, which non-specifically allows people like him to convince others to boycott a product. You seem to be unaware of the fact bad PR can bankrupt a company.



bicker said:


> Beyond that, who is "we"? If you're asking the question of TiVo's owners, you'll get a completely different answers than if you're asking the question of subscribers -- and remember, TiVo's first obligation, by law, is to its owners.


No, it isn't. It's first obligation is to its profitability. Owners can always be told to take a hike via a number of different means, from buyouts to chapter 11. Subscribers can only be told so via chapter 13, or at least in severe risk thereof.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

sinanju said:


> I would count myself as "disappointed" that TiVo didn't pull off M-Card support.


Yeah, me, too. Said disappointment is trivial compared with the aggravation of dealing with a Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD, which the TiVo replaced.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> Since he became a consumer, and consumers base their purchasing decisions in part on what they want.


In other words, *only *to the extent that what he wants drives his purchasing decisions, in the context of how much money his own purchases actually represent.

In other words, not much.



lrhorer said:


> It is also relevant since the time it became true his expressed opinion, especially in concert with many others, may well in some cases tip the balance one way or the other in how a market proceeds.


In other words, seeking to distort the market to comply with his personal preferences instead of the consumer-base's actual purchasing behaviors. Sorry, but no -- that's not how anything should ever work.



lrhorer said:


> It is also relevant since the inception of U.S. Constitution, which non-specifically allows people like him to convince others to boycott a product.


And allows other people to discount his perspective as nothing more than a personal preference, not worthy of significant concern.



lrhorer said:


> You seem to be unaware of the fact bad PR can bankrupt a company.


Rather, I don't think that narrow personal preferences should be allowed to foster bad PR. If you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is -- specifically allowing MONEY to drive product decisions -- then you don't deserve to drive the market.


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