# Picture "Blanks out"



## TimmyVan (Sep 3, 2002)

Hi all,

I'm having an on going battle with my DirecTivo HD units. When watching a HD recorded show, it occasionally "blanks out" the picture for a second - but the sound is continuous. I have 2 HD Tivos, and it happens in the same place, in each show - on both units.

My signal meter on all transponders, and satellites (A, B, C) are strong - 90 and above.

I've contacted DirecTV, and was told they "thought" it was "poor electricity flow" to the units. 

This only happens with HD recordings - never with standard recordings.

One Tivo is hooked up with HDMI cable - the second with component cables. And yet the video "Black out" happens on each unit, at the same place in the recordings.

Does anyone have any advice?

Thanks so much!

Timmy Van


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

I don't think it's the unit, but the signal from Direct TV's end. I have experienced the same problem, it only happens on certain HD channels. But since it only lasts for a second I consider it a minor annoyance.


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## stivovance (Feb 12, 2003)

I've had the same problem and only on the HD channels. I chalk it up to signal issues as well as it doesn't happen on every recording, just occassionally, but when it does happen it tends to happen more than once in a recording.


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## susanandmark (Apr 16, 2001)

We've experienced the same problem since day one with our HD DirecTiVo. From what I've read here, the brief "black outs" and sound pops are unique (and rather ubiquitous) to the system. I'm not saying everyone has them, but I've seen multiple reports of these issues here. Like you, we only have these problems on HD recordings, from sat or OTA. I think the general consensus has been to chalk it up to early days in the HD DVR field. If anyone knows something different, please correct me.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

Same problem here since the very beginning with the Hr10-250. Occurs mostly on HD, both OTA and Satellite. Worst channels are ESPN HD, ABC and NBC. Live sporting events are also glitchy. I don't know what else it could be besides the broadcast since it appears on both OTA and Satellite at the same time. I just don't understand why some of us have the problem with the HR10-250 and others don't. If it was exclusively a broadcast problem, seems like we should all be having it.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I've been seeing this on SD channels - blackouts, freezes, etc. On the other hand, the disk I "upgraded" to isn't inspiring a lot of confidence in me so I'm in the process of replacing it with another and we'll see how that goes.


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## TimmyVan (Sep 3, 2002)

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I'm sorry others are having the same problem I'm having, but relieved too. 

As I spoke with Customer Care at DirecTV, they told me "it's not at our end" with the glitches in video on the DVR. But, I can't imagine it being anything else? And from reading from your posts - it's not on our end, but from DirecTV's.

I've gone as far as I can go with trying to improve the problem, from moving the dish for a stronger signal, to changing the cable runs from the dish, to the house - along with upgrading the ground wire to eliminate "static build up" in the lines. I even installed a second dish, to eliminate the multiswitch, because I was told the "power problem" could stem from there.

As you can see, there's been a serval opinions as to the problem - and I've tried several solutions. Granted, it's not a major flaw, but since I have to pay extra for HDTV through DirecTV, I should be getting what I'm paying for. 

Hopefully, in the future, the problem will resolve itself through upgraded DirecTV service for HD subscribers. It would be comforting if DirecTV would simply say that this problem exsisits to some customers, and a resolve is being worked on.

Again, thanks to you all for the replies - and if you find a resolve - or know something about upgrading the service so the problem will end, I'd appreciate the info!


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

Ragsy said:


> I don't know what else it could be besides the broadcast since it appears on both OTA and Satellite at the same time.


I am trying to understand exactly what you mean by this statement.

Do you mean:
1) It occurs on OTA channels sometimes and also occurs on Satellite channels sometimes.
or
2) When it occurs, it happens on an OTA channel at the exact same instant I see it on a Satellite channel.

Also, is it the same broadcast that you get both via the Sat and OTA, perhaps if you live in NY or LA? Or are we talking about two different programs here?

Thanks,
Chris


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

Chris:

What I meant is that very often when there is a video stutter or glitch or whatever you want to call it, it occurs at exactly the same moment on the OTA and Satellite broadcast of the Same show. For example, if I am watching a football game on OTA 7-1 (ABC) and also on ABC WEST Coast high def feed (87) on the two separate tuners, I see the exact same stutter at the same time. This does NOT occur if I am watching two different shows on the two tuners. If I am watching the football game on one tuner and the other tuner is recording a different show, it does NOT stutter at the same moment. This is what would lead one to believe the problem is in the broadcast rather than on my end . . .


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## stivovance (Feb 12, 2003)

I can tell you the cause is not watching the same show on both tuners, one via OTA and one via Sat as my problem has occured while recording 2 different shows, 98% of which get recorded from sat.

What we need to do is pick a few programs and mark down at what points during the show there are either pixelations and/or blackouts. I have noticed most of the time, there will be a pixelation of some sort followed a few seconds later by a blackout, not all of the time, but more this past weekend than before.

Then, we compare notes to determine that this is indeed dtv's fault and not ours. Still won't do us anygood getting through the boneheads there, already tried that and failed, but atleast we would know for our sanity.


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## khark (Jan 2, 2001)

Last night while watching Crossing Jordan in HD my picture and sound went blank several times. It would come back for a while and then blank out again. 

I finally switched to one of my SD Tivos to watch the end of the show. This is quite common on both of my HD Tivos.


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

Ragsy said:


> Chris:
> 
> What I meant is that very often when there is a video stutter or glitch or whatever you want to call it, it occurs at exactly the same moment on the OTA and Satellite broadcast of the Same show. For example, if I am watching a football game on OTA 7-1 (ABC) and also on ABC WEST Coast high def feed (87) on the two separate tuners, I see the exact same stutter at the same time. This does NOT occur if I am watching two different shows on the two tuners. If I am watching the football game on one tuner and the other tuner is recording a different show, it does NOT stutter at the same moment. This is what would lead one to believe the problem is in the broadcast rather than on my end . . .


Thanks for clarifying that. I agree, it is in the original broadcast (maybe your LA affiliate lost lock from the network?) and you get it in both OTA and Sat HD feed.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

Stivovance:

I did not mean that the problem was caused by watching the same show on OTA and Satellite at the same time. I only meant that the stuttering often occurs on both OTA and Satellite at the same time when watching the same show. I agree with you that the stuttering occurs all over the place. I wish we could coordinate somehow and check various shows. In watching Desperate Housewifes and West Wing tonight via HD OTA, both shows had video stuttering at the very beginning. West Wing also had a stutter about 2/3 of the way through the show. For me, ABC, NBC and ESPN HD are consistently the worst at video stuttering. CBS, Fox and HBO are much better. Unfortunately, I suspect this varies based on East Coast vs. West Coast Feed and also based on individual feeds depending on what city or area you are in. I suspect that everyone having the problem does not have the same good and bad channels as I do. Maybe everyone in my neighborhood does. That would really be helpful, if we could somehow determine that the problem is related to the specific neighborhood or area one lives in. I suspect that this might be the case.


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## stivovance (Feb 12, 2003)

Ragsy,

Understood, just wanted to make it clear that the cause wasn't that particular configuration.

I watch the East Coast HD channels and too have major problems w/ NBC and ABC. CBS I only watch NCIS so I can't comment on any other programs. I'm in Chicago so I watch the East Coast HD networks, the only Chicago HD OTA I watch is WGN (Supernatural) and UPN (Veronica Mars) to date, I haven't noticed a single problem w/ either of these. HBO and Showtime, I don't think I've seen a problem yet either. 

I'm guessing the problems are only going to get worse. Once the weather gets a little warmer, I'm going to move my OTA antenna to get a better signal for NBC, ABC and FOX Chicago Locals.

I'd be happy to start a spreadsheet of programs anyone is having problems with. I'd need Program
Channel
City you live in
City where station is located
Air Date 
time listing of problem, pixelation and/or black outs. 

If we get enough people complaining, maybe, just maybe directv will listen. Just pm me your details and I'll get this thing started. So far, I don't think I've watched a single program since Fri 1/20 on NBC and ABC that hasn't had a problem.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

If by "blanks out", you mean that the picture goes black for about a second, I've noticed that too on HD channels.


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

I've noticed this happening in the past couple weeks. Audio continues but the picture goes black for about a second. My signal strength on both satellites is in the mid 90's, so it's not a low signal issue.

Are there solar flares or something going on that is doing this? If it's happening to so many of us, then I don't think it's on our end.


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## edrock200 (Feb 7, 2002)

count me in for 1 second video blackouts with continued audio.


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## michael1248 (Feb 14, 2002)

...ditto for me. Only on the NBC New York HD feed.


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## nazz (Sep 1, 2003)

I'm seeing the same problem on mine.


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## edrock200 (Feb 7, 2002)

michael1248 said:


> ...ditto for me. Only on the NBC New York HD feed.


yep that same channel for me too. a few mins ago I was watching four kings and a little over half way through in one of the glitches my tivo rebooted.


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## clueless2 (Jun 24, 2004)

michael1248 said:


> ...ditto for me. Only on the NBC New York HD feed.


same for me. Only NBC NY HD mpeg2 feed. Had it on "Earl" last night along with some pixelation.


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## Maniacal1 (Sep 1, 2000)

I've noticed the problem on WNBC HD for the last few days. It seemed a little more severe than usual Thursday night. 

No problems with CBS or Fox HD from NYC. I don't qualify for ABC.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

I have been getting the blanks for sometime, but this past week the blanks have increased greatly.


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## kvchief (Feb 9, 2005)

I have seen these recently on the NY NBC feed. In my experience a black blank screen seemed to be the network/feed whereas a grey blank screen indicated hard drive issues.

Just my experience. YMMV


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## TimmyVan (Sep 3, 2002)

I'm still experiencing problems from New York local feed - last night "My Name I Earl" blacked out 5 or 6 times, audio was fine. I contacted DirecTV, and was told they have no "wide spread" complaints on this problem, and have scheduled a repair technician to come and look on Sunday. 

The only other thing they could tell me, is a new DVR is on the way for summer '06, that will accept MGEG4. I'm assuming with this DVR it's MPEG2? 

Will the new DVR be an improvement - does anyone know? I'd really hate to sink more and more money into getting this set up to work as intended. 

Today I was shopping at (I hate to say it) my local cable company, and looking at their DVR, and HD set up ... 

If anyone knows about the difference between MPEG2 and MPEG4 - and if that will correct the video black out problem, I'd appreciate it! 

If you are experiencing this problem, please be sure to call DirecTV and let them know about it! Talking with them - they sound as though "I'm the only one" with this going on. Remember: The squeaky wheel gets the oil ... 

Thanks!


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

gquiring said:


> I have been getting the blanks for sometime, but this past week the blanks have increased greatly.


me too.

i can't call directv, i wish i could though.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

joetoronto said:


> me too.
> 
> i can't call directv, i wish i could though.


I have called, the 'idiots' who answer the phones are useless. Same stupity when my hard drive failed in my HR10-250. I ended up replacing the drive myself because they kept insisting that I reboot the unit.

D* is going down hill at good pace. My cable company is looking better and better every day. More HD channels like Starz, TMC and Cinemax. When the series 3 Tivo is available I will probably make the move.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

I'm in a northern NYC suburb, and I believe the problem lies with NBC, because I've seen blackouts at the same time on shows recorded on both 82 and 4.1 on different units. I also haven't seen CCs on many NBC or CBS HD shows I watch for at least a couple of months, maybe longer.

/steve


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## TimmyVan (Sep 3, 2002)

Steve,

Thanks for the input - you're using the same feed I'm using - I'm in Putnam County. I had DirecTV service at the house to check my equipment, but they found nothing wrong on my end. I knew this was the case, but had to keep taking steps in order to get some sort of answer from them.

What I was told was that it "was probably" the NBC feed itself, and had nothing to do with my equipment, or DirecTV - but with NBC. The technician was suprised this "black out" occurence bothered me at all. But - to use an analogy, if you paid $10.00 to go to the movies, and every 4 minutes, the picture went dark, would you want a refund? I'm the type of person that has no problem paying for quality - but, I do want what I paid for.

After the technician left, I called DirecTV, and was told it must be NBC, and there's little to nothing they could do about it. But, since I pay DirecTV for HD, I have to address the problem to them. Finally, after talking to a supervisor, they agreed to lower my bill for 3 months to "give NBC a chance to rectify the problem."

Well, of course the Super Bowl is on NBC this year, and I'm hoping those of us that are having this problem, and have it happen just as the pass is intercepted ... will call up and complain. According to DirecTV, I'm the one and only person with this problem on file.

Steve, since your in the same area as me - when the black out happens, could you let me know the time, and what show just to compare that it happed to two customers, at the same time?

Thanks!

Tim


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

TimmyVan said:


> when the black out happens, could you let me know the time, and what show just to compare that it happed to two customers, at the same time?


Tim,

Rest assured it's not D*. I just re-compared the dropout on two different HD Tivo's, one tuned to 82, and the other to 4.1 and saw the same dropout at the same time. Since one was via an outside antenna, D* couldn't have had anything to do with this particular 'blip'.

If it's not a repeat, I plan on recording "Medium" tonite at 10PM on 82. If you see a dropout, let me know what the timecode for it is and I'll check.

/steve


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Same here, i get these things every so often. 

"glad" to see it's not just me.

-smak-


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## avdiscolo (Jan 31, 2006)

I just replaced my first generation DirecTV RCA HD receiver with a DirecTV HD Tivo unit, and I am also experiencing the very annoying video drop out problem.

This never happened with the RCA HD receiver.

Anthony


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

avdiscolo said:


> This never happened with the RCA HD receiver.


Never happened for the first year and a half I've used the HD Tivo's either.

I'm pretty sure it's a network transmission problem, not a D* or h/w problem, at least in the NYC metro area. Since you're experiencing it too in WA, it's apparently a west coast feed problem as well, and not limited to the NY feed (which I believe is also the east coast feed.)

/steve


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## timc73 (Jan 31, 2006)

the same thing has been happing to me. I called dtv and the sent a tech out. he couldn't find anything wrong so the agreed to send me a new one. I have yet to chage over because I didn't want to loose my recorded shows. I am going to do that after the superbowl. 

It has happend mainly on abc, espn, hbo and nbc. all hd channels.

I am also getting messages on the bottom of my screen saying that I the programing is not avialble in my area. I just change the channel and it usually fixs that problem. 

it is very annonying to pay for a service and not get what is expected. I signed a 2 year contract to get my hd tivo from dircetv. if they can not give me good service I will be canceling soon, regardless of any contract!

P.S. the superbowl is on ABC

thanks


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

We may be talking about apples and oranges here.

I'm talking about occasional 1-second "blackouts", not service interruptions that cause messages on the screen. What you're experiencing may be an indication of poor dish alignment, trees blocking the satellite signal, multiswitch or transponder problems. I'd be surprised if swapping your HD Tivo will cure this.

I mainly see the "blackouts" on ABC, CBS and NBC programming.

/steve


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

I have the video stuttering and/or momentary blackouts mostly on ABC, NBC, and especially ESPN HD. All on the high def channels, both satellite and OTA. CBS and FOX high def seem much better, at least on my system. I'm in the Los Angeles area. Sporting events seem to have more issues than prerecorded shows. ESPN HD is the worst.


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## pudge44 (Dec 5, 2002)

I've only had the HR10 up and running for about 5 days, and haven't seen too many of these issues ... until tonight. I was flipping channels among the national HD feeds of ABC, NBC and CBS during the State of the Union and saw numerous picture dropouts, audio dropouts, audio stutters and even one instance of green pixelation. Right at the start on CBS, the audio was a disaster, all echo-y and out of synch. 

Anyone else experience this? I wonder if the networks actually shoot their own feeds at the SotU or if their is a single pool HD feed provided for all of them to share.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

The audio on CBS was all messed up at the beginning as you indicated. Out of sync and double audio. The audio stuttering after that may just have been George W and his normal oratory.


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## Skyhawk (Sep 25, 2001)

I'm also having the 1 or 2 second blackouts on my NY feeds for the 4 networks. Just started a couple of weeks ago. Until I read this thread I thought my second HR10 was going bad. Now I guess it is something from th transmission end. 

Sky


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## johnghill (Jan 28, 2006)

Right after installing a new Directv HD DVR with Tivo, I experienced intermittent episodes of the picture going blank for a few seconds and with lines at the top of the screen, particularly during commercials. I also experienced recordings where the sound would intermittently go off. I called out a regular TV repairman, who was unable to tell exactly what was going on. After he left, I changed my connection from component to SVideo cable with two audio cables. Since I made that change, I have not had any problem with the picture going blank or with the lines at the top of the screen. It is too early to tell whether the recording problems are still there or not, but I have not yet heard a recording since the change that lost sound. Although this change eliminates all but the lowest resolution, that is all my old RCA MM5200 could do anyway. I hope this will help others with a similar problem.


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## TimmyVan (Sep 3, 2002)

Steve, 

I recorded "Medium" and here's what I have for problems ... 

Digital Break up at: 

10:10 
10:14 
10:19 

Black out at: 
10:11 
10:12 
10:21 
10:22 

At this point I stopped watching the show - it was annoying to keep seeing the problem appear. 

Does this happen to you with DirecTV & over the air recordings? Would switching to Suscom Digital Cable be any better? (I'd have to pay a 230.00 "Early termination fee" to DirecTV - but, it may be worth it if the service is better) 

Thanks, 

Tim


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

Tim,

I checked my OTA recording of Medium and saw the same digital breakups you did at 10:10, :14 and :19.

However, I didn't see any one-second blackouts in the first 25 minutes.

I did see some digital noise in the picture, however, around 10:12, :21 and :22. Just three brief flashes that lasted 1/4 second. They were randomly placed on the screen and would have been virtually unnoticeable, had I not been watching closely for blackouts.

Since we're on different coasts, I think we can deduce from this experiment that the east and west coast NBC feeds use the same "master" recording.

Since I didn't see any blackouts this time, but you did, in this case they could be emanating from the source of the D* west coast feed vs. the source of the D* east coast feed. Or it may have something to do with the fact that our recordings were made three hours apart.

/steve


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## TimmyVan (Sep 3, 2002)

Steve,

Thanks for letting me know what's going on with your recordings. But, I think we got lost somewhere in the translation. I'm in Putnam County, New York and you're in Westchester County New York. At most, we have 50 miles between us, and we should both be using the New York (Channel 82) feed through DirecTV. 

If you're seeing the same problem,and the same times as I am - on your OTA antenna - then it's NBC for sure.

From what I'm being told - this should not happen with digital cable, as it's cable fed to from NBC to Cablevision, and then dispersed via cable to it's subscribers. As far as my understanding goes, cable companies aren't using a satellite uplink that would cause the disruption.

If enough people complain to DirecTV - maybe they'll set a fire under NBC to fix the problem. Like I've said - I've complained numerous times, and did get a discount for the next 3 months to keep me "happy" while this is looked into.

In the mean time, I'm waiting until my commitment to DirecTV is fufilled - then if HD isn't what it should be, it's off to I/O Digital Cable.

Again - thanks for letting me know what you're seeing through your OTA ...

Tim


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## Robbert (Feb 2, 2006)

Hi Everyone,

I'm a long-time lurker on this board. Got tons of good info from here, but I just felt like responding to this thread. 
I have an HR10-250 as well, running fine for the most part (although slow as hell compared to the DirecTivo Series 2 that I have as well). Pretty much as long as I can remember, I've had the momentary picture blanking and hiccups in both video and sometimes audio as well. 
It's just now getting to the point where it's becoming very annoying as either the frequency of the hiccups is increasing or I'm becoming more sensitive to them. In any case, it seems to be happening at random in pretty much any show we watch in HD. Our SD Tivo's do not have this problem, and rewinding and playing back the area around the hiccup repeats it as well, which would indicate it was a broadcasting issue. 

Now, what I'm really curious about is if anyone that has HD cable has seen anything like this. I understand some of you have seen this happen with OTA signals as well. I can't really test this since I don't seem to be able to receive any of those reliably. And, does this only happen with the HR10-250 or is it something that happens with other DirecTV HD receivers as well? How about the people that are watching live TV using the new MPEG4 receivers? I'm just wondering if it's an incompatibility issue with the HR10-250 and the way it processes the MPEG2 signal...

Just in case you're wondering, I'm in southern NH and get all the national East Coast HD Feeds through DirecTV.


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## khark (Jan 2, 2001)

johnghill said:


> Although this change eliminates all but the lowest resolution, that is all my old RCA MM5200 could do anyway. I hope this will help others with a similar problem.


What is the good of having a HD recorder if it only gets SD?


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

TimmyVan said:


> Thanks for letting me know what's going on with your recordings. But, I think we got lost somewhere in the translation. I'm in Putnam County, New York and you're in Westchester County New York. At most, we have 50 miles between us, and we should both be using the New York (Channel 82) feed through DirecTV.


In the immortal words of Homer Simpson, "Doh!". I got your location mixed-up in my mind with *avdiscolo's*, earlier in this thread.

Glad to help. Wish I had recorded it on 82 as well to compare to OTA. If you want to try again, let me know.

/steve


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## pudge44 (Dec 5, 2002)

I had several picture blackouts, at least three, while watching "Four Kings" on live tv, channel 82 tonight. If these are happening simultaneously in feeds from D* and OTA, it has to be a network problem, right?

If it keeps up, I will be calling D* to complain. I've only had HD for a week, and my wife is already making faces at me every time it happens.


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## sda3 (Jun 29, 2004)

Im going to argue and say that it is the HR10-250. I have the same problem occasionally, but if I back up in the recording many times I can see what I missed. It seems to be a problem with the HR10 at least on my end. Im chalking it up to HDMI problems with the unit. Which in my case would explain why the audio continues to my reciever.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

sda3 said:


> Im going to argue and say that it is the HR10-250. I have the same problem occasionally, but if I back up in the recording many times I can see what I missed.


I believe these are different problems.

The problem Sda3 was able to resolve by backing-up is what I believe we on this forum call "stutter", which I experience two variations of sometimes. In one case, the picture hiccups but sound remains continuous. In the other case, the picture remains OK, but the sound drops out for a second.

The problem pudge44 experienced with 4 Kings sounds like the 1-second "blackouts", which do emanate from NBC, not D*.

/steve


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## markrw58 (Oct 1, 2003)

I was going to post about a problem I am having with my local NBC affiliate here in Sacramento (KCRA) maybe this is all related. I have the HD 250 also and in the last 24 hours I have stopped receiving any picture on for my OTA NBC HD channel. Checked the meter strength and it stays between 88 and 90 more than enough for a picture but the message I receive on screen is antenna/signal strength problem. 

What do you think same issue? 

Mark


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

I doubt whether Mark's problem of total blackout is the same issue. Sounds like something else going on there. With regard to the stutters and blackouts, I get both. I suspect that some of it is related to the broadcast itself and some of it may be related to something inherent in the HR10-250 boxes. There definitely seems to be something wrong with the HR10-250 in general since so many people have stuttering or blackout issues with this box. The mystery, to me, is why some people with the HR10-250 have these issues while others don't. If someone can solve that mystery you may be able to get to the root of the problem. There are many, many times that the stutter or blackout occurs on both OTA and Satellite at the same time when the same broadcast is on both. That would indicate a possible broadcast problem, but then why doesn't everyone experience this problem at the same moment???


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## pudge44 (Dec 5, 2002)

Saw many frequent drop outs on NBCE channel 82 last night. I may place a complaint call to D* today just to get this on record. Once in a while I can live with. 5-6 times during a half-hour show is not what I paid for.


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## avdiscolo (Jan 31, 2006)

I just noticed something today. I get the "blank outs" even when fast forwarding through a recorded show. If the "blank out" was only in the recorded show, I would expect the progress indicator to still be visible, but it wasn't. The entire picture went blank. This almost sounds like a video output problem to me now.

Do other people see entire picture "blank outs" when fast forwarding through a recorded show?

Anthony


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

avdiscolo said:


> I just noticed something today. I get the "blank outs" even when fast forwarding through a recorded show. If the "blank out" was only in the recorded show, I would expect the progress indicator to still be visible, but it wasn't. The entire picture went blank. This almost sounds like a video output problem to me now.
> 
> Do other people see entire picture "blank outs" when fast forwarding through a recorded show?
> 
> Anthony


i haven't noticed any while fast forwarding but i have during playback at normal speed.


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## good.deals (Jan 28, 2006)

I have some new info from the Directivo forum... I have the same problem and another guy thinks its the HDMI port. 

He has a panasonic tv and they told him it might be the hr10-250 hdmi port. However, I also have a panasonic. We both have the same problem

It's either the HDMI port on the hr10 or the port on the panasonic.

Let me know what kind of TV's you have and if you have your connection through your hdmi port.

-Nathan


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## good.deals (Jan 28, 2006)

Everyone using HDMI? If so, what kind of TV do you have?


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

good.deals said:


> Everyone using HDMI? If so, what kind of TV do you have?


not everyone. i'm too scared to try it, i just don't feel it's worth the risk.


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## pudge44 (Dec 5, 2002)

I have the same problem using HDMI and a Samsung DLP.


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## clueless2 (Jun 24, 2004)

I have the "one second" video blackouts and I use component. It happens most frequently on NBC (D* NY feed) although I have seen it occasionally on CBS. (D* NY feed) I still think it is either the network or D*.

I can't get OTA so I can't compare the two.


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## stivovance (Feb 12, 2003)

I have seen this on all the major networks through Directv HD New York Locals. I just can't see this being all the networks are having problems at the same time. I still think directv is the cause of the problem(s). I've watched Chicago OTA for our WB and UPN and haven't seen a problem yet, but for the major networks, don't get a great signal yet for OTA so I can't compare.


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## avdiscolo (Jan 31, 2006)

I haven't heard from many of you on whether the progress indicator disappears during a "blank out" when fast forwarding/rewinding through a recorded show.

Most of the discussion has been about signal strength, and I understand how signal strength could create a blank out, but I don't understand why the progress indicator disappears during a blank out. It really seems like the entire video output from the HD10 is shutting down.

It also seems to me that the blank outs happen more often during transitions in the show, such as camera changes or commercial breaks.

I am also running component output.


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## ntakidoo (Sep 25, 2005)

I too am having this problem with my HR10-250 connected to my Panasonic 50" plasma via HDMI cable.

I just posted about it on hidefforum.com, and someone suggested that I contact DirecTV for a software update - I'll do that to see what happens, but I thought I'd see if anyone else here had tried that?


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## stivovance (Feb 12, 2003)

There aren't any software updates for the Hr10 yet. If you're running 3.1.5f you have the latest software.


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## ntakidoo (Sep 25, 2005)

stivovance said:


> There aren't any software updates for the Hr10 yet. If you're running 3.1.5f you have the latest software.


You are correct. I just got off the phone with a person at "Tier 2 Customer Support" who informed me that

a) I have the latest software version for the HR10-250

but more importantly that

b) I should not be getting the HD west coast feeds in the first place, which is why I'm having problems.

I have a triple LNB and she said I need the 5 LNB

but the beautiful part is...

She said they currently don't have an HD receiver capable of receiving the local HD feeds anyway

???????

I said, so...what the hell am I paying for HD service for?? And she listed off the crappy bizarro channels where I can watch Knight Rider in HD (?).

She said if I get an OTA and if it has a good angle to the tower, then I might be able to get my HD locals that way.

I hate D* so very much. Constantly giving me conflicting information. When I called in the first place I was told all I needed was the receiver and everything would work perfectly. I hate them I hate them I hate them.


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

lol, the majority of the csr's are a complete joke.


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## JohnDG (Oct 28, 2004)

ntakidoo said:


> You are correct. I just got off the phone with a person at "Tier 2 Customer Support" who informed me that
> 
> b) I should not be getting the HD west coast feeds in the first place, which is why I'm having problems.
> 
> ...


If you are located in L.A., why are you not eligible for the L.A. MPEG2 locals on 81, 83,87 an 89? HD TiVo can receive and record these. I believe you need to subscribe to the locals package to receive these.

jdg


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## nobbie (Feb 3, 2006)

I am in LA and receive those channels. Last night while watching the Tivo-delayed broadcast of the Grammy's I experience multiple picture AND video blank-outs. Of course, I have a new TV, new HD/DVR and new HD service for D*. So, I was at my wit's end trying to figure out which new element was the culprit. Soooo....annoying. I haven't noticed this issue with any other show. And it didn't appear to be happening during the commercial breaks of the Grammy's either. Which leads me to believe it's some technician dribbling cookie crumbs on the equipment in the van out in the parking lot of the Grammy's.

At least, I hope that's the case.


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## Gambino1time (Feb 9, 2006)

I just had my hd tivo replaced with a brand new one and i must have seen 20+ gliches during the broadcast of the grammys. I dont know if my last unit was a better one and am very frusterated..... I know people say its the feed on OTA as well but last night was the worst ive ever seen it. Im wondering if i should plug back in my old unit and send back the new one. These units are crappy but we have no options. I sure would like to hear from others who watched the grammy's last night. I live in orange county and also get the LA feed of local HDs.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

Gambino:

You are not alone. I saw a whole lot of pixellation on the grammys last night. At least 10-15 times during the broadcast. It was really bad. I was watching on OTA 2-1 from Los Angeles. I started a thread called Grammy Picture Quality that has had a few responses so far. It seemed to pixellate less during the performances and more during the transitions CBS ran across the screen. But it was continous and very, very annoying. CBS is normally very good on my setup, but this was brutal


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

could it be some kind of information overload then, Ragsy?


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## ntakidoo (Sep 25, 2005)

I do actually get the HD locals in the 80s, that's the funny part. The woman in CS was very suprised that I got them, and started rambling about waivers and crap like that.

So she blamed the dropouts on the fact that I wasn't even supposed to be getting those channels in the first place.

Of course, I AM supposed to be getting them there - I pay for local channels too, so she's full of crap (surprise surprise).

The beautiful part is that yesterday while I was imputting season passes into my new machine, I experienced the dropouts as well. Not while watching a channel but while in the Tivo menu itself spelling out the name of a show I wanted to put on the list.

So in answer to the question about the progress bar going away, I gotta guess that yeah, the bar would go away too if everything else does, regardless of signal strength.

I'm going to call the Brain Trust at D* and see how they stumble through this one.

Wish me luck....


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

ntakidoo said:


> I do actually get the HD locals in the 80s, that's the funny part. The woman in CS was very suprised that I got them, and started rambling about waivers and crap like that.
> 
> So she blamed the dropouts on the fact that I wasn't even supposed to be getting those channels in the first place.
> 
> ...


i hope your going to go way up the ladder, ntakidoo, because otherwise you'll need a hell of a lot more than luck.

may the force be with you. :up:


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## EricG (Jan 31, 2002)

I too have been noticing the video cut out for a second but the audio is still there on my HDVR2. Mainly I notice it on my local FOX station, WJW.


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

good.deals said:


> I have some new info from the Directivo forum... I have the same problem and another guy thinks its the HDMI port.
> 
> He has a panasonic tv and they told him it might be the hr10-250 hdmi port. However, I also have a panasonic. We both have the same problem
> 
> ...


OK, same damn problem - HDMI connected to a Panasonic TH-42PHD8UK (42" Plasma). I have a different take on this. I just activated my HR10-250 about 10 days ago. I purchased it from Newegg and initially hooked it up to my existing dual channel single LNB dish while waiting for my Phase III dish to arrive. I live in the mountains of Colorado and have west coast HD waivers and I was able to receive CBS HD CH 81 with the existing single LNB dish (CH 81 is currently broadcasting from the 101 satellite). For the last week I have recorded and viewed several HD broadcasts from CH81 with absolutely no problems, that is until now. Yesterday my new triple LNB Phase III dish arrived and after installing/aligning it with a resulting signal strength in the mid 90's on all three Sats I'm thinking great, everything is OK fine. So last night as a test I recorded back to back episodes of "Survivor", "CSI", and "Without a Trace" (all on CH81).

WHAT A DISAPPOINTMENT!! Every 10 min like clockwork for a total of 5 times on each one of these shows the picture totally blacked out for approximately 1-2 seconds, and the audio blanked out also. As I already mentioned the video is routed to my Panny Plasma directly from the HR10 via the HDMI cable and the audio is fed to my AV receiver via TOSLink (optical) for surround sound. This to me surely indicates a total interruption of the video & audio feed from the HR10. So the cause is either the HR10 itself , or the broadcast signal source from the networks or D* is for some reason being interrupted.

Maybe this is just coincidental, but I did not have this problem until I installed the Phase III dish. I'm wondering if this is somehow related to the built in multiswitch? I also noticed an immediate slowdown in the program guide and other menu functions on the HR10 after hooking up to the Phase III dish. I called D* tech support and got the usual canned responses (no help at all). What a drag this is going to be watching the Winter Olympics in HiDef with this annoyance occurring every 10 minutes!


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## ntakidoo (Sep 25, 2005)

Hard to say, but it could be a coincidence.

Like I said, I'm now having the 1-2 seconds of blackness + silence when I'm not even watching the signal - all I'm doing is navigating the Tivo menu to set things up.

Great. Just great.

Hooked the whole system up to a UPS today, maybe that will help. <sigh>


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## avdiscolo (Jan 31, 2006)

Wirelezz,

I have the exact same problem. I had a DirecTV technician come out this morning and he said that my signal strength was perfect and declared that I had a defective HD10-250. So I went back down to Best Buy and got a new one. Of course, the new one had the same problem as the old one. 

My old RCA HD receiver never had any video issues in the 5 years I have owned it. 

So, I called DirecTV customer service, and got escalated since I had a technician already come out and was not able to fix the problem. They are sending another unit out to me. The CS said there have been some video problems with this unit and he suggested that the unit shipped directly from DirecTV might have this issue fixed. We'll see.

I'll keep you informed of what happens next.

Anthony


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## hidefjunkie (Feb 11, 2006)

Same problem. Superbowl, Gammy's, Olympic opening ceremonies, you name it, the HD signal on all channels (8x on the west coast) multiple blackouts. Incredibly annoying. Anyone know if cable is experiencing the same problem?

Pioneer Elite 50" Plasma, HR10-250. HDMI Interface. Will try Component connection and OTA tomorrow... But, from reading this thread, it doesn't sound like it'll help.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

Nope. I have the exact same problem with OTA as you have with satellite and same problem whether I hook up HDMI or Component. Either the broadcasts are all screwed up or the HR10-250 is, or maybe both! I still cannot figure out why it is that some of us have all these issues, while others with the HR10-250 seem to have no problems at all. It is a complete mystery.


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## avdiscolo (Jan 31, 2006)

I really don't see how it could be the signal since the picture is perfect on my old RCA HD receiver downstairs. We actually watched the Olympics in that room last night because we had so many blackouts with the HD10-250.


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## monkeyboy1010 (Nov 17, 2000)

Add me to the heap of "me too" I have had the same unit since they were introduced almost 2 years ago, and this is VERY annoying. 

I did a little test thursday night that was interesting. 

I have a MCE 2005 setup with my TV and I record OTA HD feeds of shows to have a backup in case the TiVo drops the ball. 

CSI on Thursday had several dropouts on the 10-250, BUT the OTA MCE 2005 recording was fine no dropouts. I checked at the same spots the drop outs ocured and didn't notice any thing in the OTA feed that would have caused a blip that I could tell. 

my .02 worth,

mb1010


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

Update:

Last night's Olympic's opening ceremonies on CH83 NBCW - While much better than Thursday night's terrible reception, I'm still seeing the periodic "black out" phenomena. I called D* tech support @ 866-678-6664 (direct line, no menu's to navigate through) and was very surprised to hear that they haven't heard any reports on this problem. It would be helpful if other's experiencing this problem would call that # to complain so D* can log this. The D* CSR told me they never investigate a problem until they have a sufficient # of complaints... go figure!

I've also observed that when this "blackout" phenomenon occures my AV receiver (Rotel RSX-965), switches from Dolby Digital to Pro Logic and back again every time the screen blacks out, so it's not just a video problem, and at this point I don't think this is an HDMI problem either.

BTW this is also being discussed at the 'DTV with Tivo' forum: 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=286019

"good.deal" who started that thread posted a link to a video clip of this "blackout" problem... check it out: 
http://www.camping.arvixe.com/good-deals/hr10-250.MPG


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## avdiscolo (Jan 31, 2006)

I've complained and they are sending me another unit. My case was escalated since a technician came out to my house and said my first unit was defective. The second unit had the same problem.

I got my first two units from Best Buy, and now the third one is coming directly from DirecTV.

I agree with Wirelezz, everyone else needs to report this problem.


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## kjohnson913 (Feb 8, 2006)

I get the blackouts on all the LD network channels (West Coast Feeds) and occasionally on the Fox News Channel. I agree with the one poster who said that the blackouts had slowed down, but the past few days on CBS and NBC have really been bad.

What is frustrating is that D* claims that they are not aware of this as a widespread problem and they keep putting me through their useless tech support process run by the greenest of the green.

I think they have a design problem with the HR10. I have another, non Tivo HD receiver and never have any blackout problems with it. Same dish, multiswitch and the cabling to this one is old. The cabling to my HR10 is all brand new, clean high quality cable runs. It's gotta be the receiver. I'm gonna get it replaced and if it doesn't fix the prblem, I guess I'll just have to live with the problem until they come out with the new HR20 and hope for the best or switch to cable.


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## RonH54 (Jul 3, 2004)

Man was about to get HD from Directv with the 250 DVR unit but not so sure now. I live in Ky. and I receive NYC and LA Networks(STD) andI have confirmed that I can get the NYC HD feeds turned on for viewing. I presently have the Directv Tivo unit and my wife records stuff constantly so I am really learly now of making the jump to HD DVR.


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

One more update:

OK, I did an experiment last (Sat.) night to resolve once and for all if this problem is related to the HDMI output (it's not!). I connected my HR10 to my old Sony 32" CRT via the S-video cable and left the HDMI cable unplugged. I watched the Olympics on CH83 NBCW for an hour this way (in 480i mode) and yes, the periodic blackouts were still there, it didn't make any difference that I was viewing the picture on my old Sony CRT via the S-video cable. I would think this experiment would eliminate the HDMI output as being the culprit causing this blackout issue once and for all.

On a high note member MvM has posted that he was told by D* that 'they were aware of the issue and, "Just need a couple more days" to resolve it.' If this is true then I guess the issue is with D* and not with the HR10. One can only hope that this is true...


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## khark (Jan 2, 2001)

The Olympics coverage last night had many of the blanks. I would go for a long time with no problem and then it might have 5 or 6 in a short time. Some of these were different than I have seen before, the picture would first go blocky before the picture blanked out.

I also watched the drag races on espn2HD last night and it didn't have any problems at all with blanking out.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

Somebody please come up with a valid theory as to why some of us have these drop outs and pixellation and stutters with the HR10-250 while others with the same machine have no issues. I just cannot figure out what is going on. Could it be the TVs involved? Is it possible that certain TVs are having a problem with the HR10-250?? It is not an HDMI problem. It is not a signal problem. Since it occurs on both OTA and Satellite HD, it is not a satellite issue. It is not a cabling issue. IF it was a broadcast issue, everyone should be having the problem, not just some of us with the HR10-250. If D* was the culprit, why wouldn't everyone be having the problem. What does that leave as the possible problem??? Problem with certain TVs and the HR10-250? I have a Sony 32 inch CRT. I don't see anyone on the Sony chat sites complaining about this problem with similar TV. This problem is incredibly annoying. I know some say that the technology is very new so there will always be some problems, but that doesn't explain why this is such a problem with some of the HR10-250 units, while others seem to have no issues. One thing seems consistent. Once you have the problem, getting a replacement HR10-250 seems to do nothing to solve the problem. Direct TV saying they are now aware of the problem and it will be fixed in a few days sounds like an incredible longshot. This problem has been going on for well over a year now with no end it sight.


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## TC_Greek (Feb 4, 2005)

My unit is only a few months old so I'm considering a return. It seemed to run fine for a month or so but for the last severa weeks I've been getting the same problem as everyone else. I have 2 other non HD Direct Tivo units ( 1 stock R10 and a modded Hughes HDVR). On these 2 units the modded one seems to run better than the stock R10. Is there a software upgrade recommended for the HR10 250?


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## khark (Jan 2, 2001)

Last night I kept track of the dropouts while watching 1 hour of the Olympics on NBC, there were 5. Next I watched the Winternational drag races for 3 hours on espn2 HD and there were none.
Later I watched the next block of Olympics for about 3 hours and there were a bunch more, so many that I gave up counting. I think the main problem is NBC.


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## FlopShot (Apr 24, 2004)

I've had my hr10-250 for almost 2 years and never had any momentary blackout issues until about 1 month ago. So it's definitely not related to a type of dish, or a recent hack installed. Unless a new version of software came down in the last month (which I don't recall reading about), it also is not software related IMHO. The only other thing I can think of is maybe the hard drive is finally starting to go bad, and hence every once in a while the software can't write something to the drive. My drives do seem to make a bit more noise when spinning than when they were brand new. Has anyone with this problem tried putting their hard drives thru SpinRite or some other "defrag" or "optimizing" program?


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## Saabster (Jun 12, 2005)

I'm in Orange County, CA and get my HD Locals via D* I've noticed the audio/Video blackouts on ABC and CBS (only HD Local's we watch). I have not noticed it on my SD channel recordings. 

I've got the HR10-250 running into my 50" Samsung DLP via HDMI and the audio running into my HT 7.1 receiver via TOS cable. 

I'm planning on Getting an OTA antenna and seeing if that helps the matter, but after readiing this thread I don't have any real hopes for it.

Craig


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## Gambino1time (Feb 9, 2006)

I have been dealing with this ever since I switched to HD and got a hd10-250 one month ago. I even got it replaced with a brand new box in the first few weeks of ownership and have the same damn problem...... I kinda am trying to ignore it, which is extremely dificult as I am a videophile and an audiophile with a beatiful new 60" Sony SXRD. At first I thought it was my signal strength, but it wasnt. Then I put a line conditioner on my RF lines coming from the dish and a power conditioner on my electrical: no results either. Then I came to the conclusion it was my box, and after a tedious 3 hours on the phone and a ****ing replacement unit I realized it wasn't my last box or my new box. Then I thought to myself it's the feed and this is one of the reasons we are switching over to mpeg-4 in mid-June b/c mpeg-2 is too much for D* to handle and it causes interruptions!!!! This is still quite possible. But my new theory is rich and I have some support to back it up.... It's all of our phase III triple LNB dishes. They have built in multiswitches that suck. If you don't have a tripple LNB oval dish I would love to hear from you but if you do, then face it its either the dish or the feed. Welcome to DirectTV folks. Mid-June they will change our boxes and dishes to HD20-250s and 5 LNB ovals...until then were fuct... Unless someone wants to have their multiswitch changed out (which is free). My friend had it done at his last home and says it did the trick, but he doesnt live there anymore so i cannot give a sworn testimony here (furthermore he now has a new new triple LNB dish and the same problem that brought us all here: blackouts). I think it is a design flaw in the multiswitch and chances are a replacement will be just as bad (I give you a 30% chance of a fix, given the current design, just guessing though). At any rate someone try it b/c it would definately be the next thing for us to all try.... Please respond to this and kick my thoughts around. dont run off and replace your hd10-250 it aint worth the trouble.... Although if you kick and scream to either retainment or a customer service manager they can and will discount your bill thru June or give you a free upgrade to be redeemed in June.... Good luck and may the force be with us all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


-Gambino


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

I have a Phase III triple LNB with a built in multi-switch but I don't think thats the issue. I have been watching a good deal of NBC NY (82) and UHD. Lots of blackouts on NBC but zero on UHD. I also see no blackouts on HBO. I also have been watching 24 and American Idol on Fox NY (88) and see no blackouts. I am starting to think this is a source issue.

I am using component output on a 42" Panasonic Plasma.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

I guess it could be the triple LNB dishes. I had the LNB replaced a few months ago and of course it made no difference. I didn't have the whole dish replaced though, just the triple LNB. But my question is still the same: Why do some of us have the video stuttering and blackouts while others do not, and why does it seem to be more prevelant with the HR10-250 than with other boxes? I have a bad feeling about the new HR20-250 , 5 LNB fixing this problem, but I guess we might as well be optimistic about that . . .Unfortunately, I have already read some people complaining about the 5 LNB and blackouts, etc.


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## davahad (Dec 1, 2002)

Add me to the list. I've got an HR10-250 going to Pioneer Elite 50" via HDMI for almost a year now and have been seeing these blackouts for the past month or so. Mainly it was on ESPNHD but the NBC channel 83 Olympic broadcast has been horrible with blackouts every 5-10 minutes.


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## avdiscolo (Jan 31, 2006)

Just an update on my saga. I received my _third_ HD10-250 in the mail, this time directly from DirecTV--the one that is supposed to solve all my problems. And of course, it still has the blank out problem. I get on the phone with second tier support, and he says I have marginal signal strength on one of my satellites (~73). When I mention to him that it also happens on OTA HD where the signal strength is > 90, I get some lame answer to the effect that they can't control the OTA broadcasts.

Just curious, what is the HD satellite signal strength for those of you with this problem?

This is where I was two weeks ago with my first unit! They are coming back next week to adjust my dish.

This is really getting old.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

I have the stuttering and blackouts on both OTA and Satellite, and very often at the very same moment if I have both tuners set to the same broadcast (one on OTA and the other on Satellite). My signal strength on 119 is around 90, but my signal strength on the 110 is closer to 80. Saying the problem is signal strength makes no sense. Why would the problem occur on both satellite and OTA at the same time if it was signal strength. I think they just don't know what else to say at D* so they blame it on signal strength.


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## TheBigDogs (Oct 14, 2004)

With very serious blackouts on the opening ceremonies recording, I assumed I had a failing unit. However, I did decide to record both the KNBC satellite and local OTA NBC HD feed.

I reviewed the satellite feed and noted the time and activities of each blackout. I then matched up my OTA recording and began looking for the same problem. The result - 30 blackout issues over 7 hours of Friday and Saturday KNBC satellite recordings, none, 0, nada on the OTA recordings.

Now, this eliminated the NBC feed, the dish, the multiswitch and the HR10 since all 4 were common between the two recordings. The problem must be somewhere between the D* uplink and my dish.

I called D* on the matter and got the usual "we don't see that here" BS. I asked if I could talk to someone in technical support and got practically the same answer.

There was a similar problem in the Bay Area a number of years ago when they began broadcasting the SD locals. This time it was at their local uplink, but no one at D* would even consider the possibility that *they* had a problem.

In my case, I have a solution for the Olympic broadcasts, but my OTA environment is such that I have to adjust the antenna for each station. That means that I depend on the signal from D* for a typical weeks worth of recording because of the overall better quality. Right now, everything from NBC is being picked up on 11.1 while ABC and CBS are picked up from 81 and 87.

Like many on this thread, I have minimal problems with the HD feeds on the 70s channels, but the network feeds really do suck. From what I understand, the H20 LiL feed seems to have the same problem.

With the exception of football, I've never watched anything on FOX and didn't even bother with a waiver request. I don't seem to see the level of complaints about the FOX signal matching the other "big" 3. In the interest of stirring controversy, is it possible that this is done intentionally to drive people to FOX or, like me, does no one else have any interest in their programming and thus there are no complaints.


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

Gambino1time said:


> But my new theory is rich and I have some support to back it up.... It's all of our phase III triple LNB dishes. They have built in multiswitches that suck. If you don't have a tripple LNB oval dish I would love to hear from you but if you do, then face it its either the dish or the feed.


I alluded to the multiswitch in the Phase III dish being the culprit in my first post on this thread (post #74, more details there).

I ran my new HR10-250 off of my pre existing SINGLE LNB dish for about 10 days before my Phase III dish arrived. I received HD CH81 CBSW on this single LNB dish with NO PROBLEMS during that time (CH81 is on the 101 Sat.). As soon as I installed the Phase III dish all my blackout problems began. The worst blackouts I've experienced to date were on last Thurs. evening (2/9) recording Survivor, CSI, etc. on CH81 having just installed the new Phase III dish that afternoon. I had not seen the blackouts until then. If it weren't such a PITA I would re-install my single LNB dish as a test (No way! That's not going to happen!). BTW the new Phase III dish is a KTI but the triple LNB it came with is a Channel Master and it says right on it that it's manufactured in China (go figure). Anyone know who manufactured the highest quality triple LNB?

I does seem as though the blackouts have gotten much better. My recording of the Olympics last night had virtually no blackouts. Very pixely during motion however. I'm wondering if they are experimenting with the amount of compression / bitrates to minimize this blackout problem (if it's even related)?


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## doug25 (Oct 4, 2005)

I also have these "black out problems" on occasion. I live in NH and get the NYC HD feeds where most of the problems occur. Just a theory, but could there be a problem in the station "uplink" to the satellite (either weather or equipment?


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

avdiscolo said:


> Just curious, what is the HD satellite signal strength for those of you with this problem?


My sat strength on all three is a low of 91 and averages 93. I watched Lost and Invasion last night on ABC NY (86) and no black outs. I watched my recording of last nights Olympics with blackouts and stuttering every few minutes. I did get one very short stutter on UHD today but so far the bulk of my issues are NBC.


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## ntakidoo (Sep 25, 2005)

After reading this and similar threads on other forums, I feel like it's pretty safe to conclude that the problem is the HR10-250 itself. Something is just plain sick in its innerds.

Why? 

Happens with HDMI
Happens with component
Happens with S-Video
Happens with various TVs/monitors
Happens with various dishes
Happens with various multi-switches
Happens when watching live TV
Happens when watching recorded programs
Happens when not watching anything, just navigating Tivo menus

Doesn't seem to happen when:

People use a different HD receiver
People use an OTA and a different box

And since they've phased this box out, they don't care, they never have, and there won't be a fix. All we can do is hope the HR20 is better (at least in terms of dropouts - we know it won't be better in terms of DVR interface...no Tivo!).

For what it's worth, I hooked up my whole system to a UPS and the problem diminished significantly. For now....

My $0.02, y'all.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

I really don't believe the solution is hooking the HR10-250 to a UPS, but I would be interested in a follow up in a few days as to whether hooking up to a UPS really has decreased the blackout or stuttering problem. It doesn't really make sense to me, but . . .


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

I have had a UPS on my HR10-250 from day one.

I don't think it's the HR10-250 because when I first received it there were no black outs. Why the black outs appear more on NBC than any other channel has to be a clue. I don't think I have ever seen a black out on HBO (70), CBS (80) or FOX (88).


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

Here on the West Coast (Los Angeles) I see the most video problems (blackouts, pixellation, stuttering) on NBC, ABC and ESPN HD. On NBC and ABC the problem is on both Satellite and OTA. I agree that normally FOX, CBS and HBO are better, although last week CSI on CBS was very bad. Also, live sporting events have issues on Fox and CBS from time to time.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

Glad to finally find a thread about this. I've had this problem with my second HDTivo for many months. I assumed it was my Hitachi HDtv since the blackouts were usually associated with a sudden bright light or flash(information overload); but after reading this thread I guess I'll call the TV repairman to not come tomorow. It's annoying enough that we'll probably just watch SD for now(never happens in 480).
In my case there doesn't seem to be any correlation with what channel we're watching, just whether its HD or not.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

Just did a test. We watched 10 minutes of the Olympics on 1080 - 6 blackouts; rewound it, no blackouts in SD. Then the surprise; rewound it and watched it in 720 - no blackouts!
Maybe we'll be able to watch HD in 720 without blackouts!


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## ntakidoo (Sep 25, 2005)

If only D* were trying as hard to determine the cause of our problems as we are...


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

Good luck on the 720, but I have the same problems regardless of whether the Tivo is set to 720 or 1080. No difference at all. Any update on the blackouts with the UPS hooked up??


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

Cudahy said:


> Just did a test. We watched 10 minutes of the Olympics on 1080 - 6 blackouts; *rewound it, no blackouts in SD*. Then the surprise; rewound it and watched it in 720 - no blackouts!
> Maybe we'll be able to watch HD in 720 without blackouts!


wtf 

you rewound it, played it back in SD and there's no blackouts?


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

Cudahy said:


> Just did a test. We watched 10 minutes of the Olympics on 1080 - 6 blackouts; rewound it, no blackouts in SD. Then the surprise; rewound it and watched it in 720 - no blackouts!
> Maybe we'll be able to watch HD in 720 without blackouts!


I find that hard to believe. I still have my HD recording of the opening ceremonies of the Olympics which has numerous blackouts. I played back several of those sections using 480i (on my Sony 32" SD CRT); 480p, 720p, & 1080i (on my Panny 42" HD Plasma). As one would expect, the blackouts were there no matter what output was selected. I mean come on, what's recorded on the hard drive "stays on the hard drive" - playing it back using different rez outputs isn't going to change anything.

Anyone else try this?


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

Agreed. Once the blackout is there, it doesn't make any difference what resolution you play it back at. By the way, I get these problems on HD reception regardless of what the resolution is set to during the recording. Even if it is set to 480, rather than 720 0r 1080, I get blackouts and stuttering on HD programming.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

We watched 2 hours of the Olympics last night on 720 without any blackouts. Judging from the very different responses on this thread the combination of the box, the TV , and the connections create different situations. 
In my case I'm assuming that our TV has problems with the HDtivo's 1080 feed but is able to handle the 720. It's clear that the "blackouts" are not in the received signal but in the transference to a television. With the current HD250 there is an occasional information overload in 1080. 
With some of you it may something very different; the received signal, the interaction with a different TV set, etc.
For me it looks like I can avoid the blackouts by leaving it at 720. When I first got HD I thought you had to watch 1080 channels in 1080. Now the only difference between 720 and 1080 that we can see is the blackouts.


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## ntakidoo (Sep 25, 2005)

Okay, I know that it hasn't helped everyone, but for what it's worth, our dropouts diminished dramatically (although they did not disappear altogether) once we hooked everything up to the UPS. 

Just thought I'd throw that out there.


As for the rest of the issue...

Am I the only one who has seen the video dropout happen when NOT watching a live or recorded feed, but while navigating within the Tivo menu system?? Haven't heard anyone else mention this, but it has happened to me (pre-UPS).

Very curious to hear if anyone else has experienced this.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

ntakidoo said:


> Okay, I know that it hasn't helped everyone, but for what it's worth, our dropouts diminished dramatically (although they did not disappear altogether) once we hooked everything up to the UPS


I have had a UPS on my HR10-250 from day one. The dropouts and black screens for me are almost entirely on NBC HD NY (82). I rarely get any issues on any other channel. I also see the issues watching SD broadcasts on channel 82. I watched the US hockey today on 82 and I don't think I saw a single issue, go figure.


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## swannie (Feb 4, 2003)

I have the same flickering with playback on my H10-250.....it happens both on the OTA and triple lnb dish. Signal strength is over 85 on both. I may try the UPS but I have to plead dumb here as I do not know what that is. I do not get black outs as much as I get picture/audio flickering. Thanks for your help!


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

swannie said:


> I have the same flickering with playback on my H10-250.....it happens both on the OTA and triple lnb dish. Signal strength is over 85 on both. I may try the UPS but I have to plead dumb here as I do not know what that is. I do not get black outs as much as I get picture/audio flickering. Thanks for your help!


swannie,

UPS stands for "Uninterrupted Power Supply." It is a battery powered device which continues to supply power to your Tivo, or entire entertainment system in the event of an intermittent or total power failure. A good UPS will also "condition" and maintain proper voltage (120V) and pure sine wave when there are power surges or voltage variations or "brownouts."

I use an APC1400 UPS which will keep my entire entertainment system running for over an hour in the event of a total power outage. APC (American Power Conversion) is one of the best manufacturers of UPS's.

Large capacity UPS's are not cheap, but bargains are to be had on eBay everyday.

In regards to this "blackout" problem, the addition of a UPS (while desirable) IMHO will not make a bit of difference. I've always used a UPS with my system and I still get the "blackouts." As far as I'm concerned this problem is an interruption of the HD video/audio stream from the satellite and is either originating from D*'s NOC or the Networks themselves. I've seen a noticeable improvement over the last few days however, especially in regards to the Olympics.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

Wirelezz said:


> As far as I'm concerned this problem is an interruption of the HD video/audio stream from the satellite and is either originating from D*'s NOC or the Networks themselves. I've seen a noticeable improvement over the last few days however, especially in regards to the Olympics.


100% agree with you. The last two days the Olympics on 82 has been almost flawless. UPS makes no difference except that is a huge help when you have a blip on your power, waiting for the Tivo to boot and download is about a 5 minute issue, I can't imagine watching 24 and having to wait that long!!


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## swannie (Feb 4, 2003)

Thank you very much for you help! It now makes sense!


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## khark (Jan 2, 2001)

The problem has been much less for the last couple of days on the Olympics until last night toward the end if the broadcast. The blanks started with alarming frequency when the ski jump coverage stared making the broadcast unwatchable. It cleared up after 10 or 15 minutes.


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## miss_my_utv (Sep 29, 2005)

khark said:


> The problem has been much less for the last couple of days on the Olympics until last night toward the end if the broadcast. The blanks started with alarming frequency when the ski jump coverage stared making the broadcast unwatchable. It cleared up after 10 or 15 minutes.


Experienced the exact same thing (unwatchable during ski jump coverage - only) on a recording from the west coast NBC HD feed...


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## navymustang (Feb 19, 2006)

Cudahy said:


> Glad to finally find a thread about this. I've had this problem with my second HDTivo for many months. I assumed it was my Hitachi HDtv since the blackouts were usually associated with a sudden bright light or flash(information overload); but after reading this thread I guess I'll call the TV repairman to not come tomorow. It's annoying enough that we'll probably just watch SD for now(never happens in 480).
> In my case there doesn't seem to be any correlation with what channel we're watching, just whether its HD or not.


I have had my HR10-250 for just nine days now and this blackout/stuttering issue is becoming VERY annoying. I am experiencing everything that everyone else seems to be, but I am getting these "blackout's" on many of channels, even SD channels. Because I have been seeing them on the SD channels, I thought that it might be a separate problem, but the symptoms are identical to what everybody else has been talking about. I have seen them on HBO HD, SHO HD, Disney Channel, Comedy Central, and TNT HD (great addition by the way).

Just like the quote above though, I have noticed the blackouts primarily when there is a sudden bright light or flash in the picture. My kids were watching "Twitches" on Disney and whenever the characters used a magic spell that created a bright flash, the picture would black out. I first noticed it during "Independence Day" on HBO HD, during the scene where the alien kills Brent Spiner in the lab and there is a lot of bright flashes of blue light, even during two different showings.

On Tuesday the 21st, Independence Day airs on HBO HD again at 4:30 am. I'd be really curious to see if the blackouts occur with everyone's HR10-250 during that scene. If just some of you could record it and let me know, that would be great.

I'm pretty sure that this is a video decoding error within the HR10-250 and DirecTV is simply refusing to acknowledge the problem. Since they are being phased out and they no longer will be using TiVo software (a big mistake on their part), they aren't interested in generating an update.


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

miss_my_utv said:


> Experienced the exact same thing (unwatchable during ski jump coverage - only) on a recording from the west coast NBC HD feed...


Absolutely!! I just watched my recording of last nights Olympics. Just when I'm thinking the worst may be over, the Ski Jump segment plagued with the worst blackouts I've seen so far (HD NBCW CH83). Anybody with the East coast feed see this also?

And boy, do I ever miss my UTV also!!


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## pudge44 (Dec 5, 2002)

gquiring said:


> 100% agree with you. The last two days the Olympics on 82 has been almost flawless. UPS makes no difference except that is a huge help when you have a blip on your power, waiting for the Tivo to boot and download is about a 5 minute issue, I can't imagine watching 24 and having to wait that long!!


I've also been watching tons of the Olympics on 82 and don't recall seeing a single video dropout. A couple of audio dropouts, but performance does seem to have improved quite a bit.


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

navymustang said:


> I am getting these "blackout's" on many of channels, even SD channels. Because I have been seeing them on the SD channels, I thought that it might be a separate problem, but the symptoms are identical to what everybody else has been talking about. I have seen them on HBO HD, SHO HD, Disney Channel, Comedy Central, and TNT HD (great addition by the way).


Not here. I'm only seeing these blackouts on the west coast network HD channels. I've viewed in real time and recorded as well the HD 70's channels, HBO, Showtime, etc. and other non network HD channels and have not seen the blackouts on those channels... Go figure. Recording the programs (or not) doesn't seem to be a factor in this, at least for me.



navymustang said:


> I'm pretty sure that this is a video decoding error within the HR10-250 and DirecTV is simply refusing to acknowledge the problem. Since they are being phased out and they no longer will be using TiVo software (a big mistake on their part), they aren't interested in generating an update.


Agreed: Considering people with receivers other than the HR10-250 don't suffer this problem, I'm sure this is the case. Probably something to do with D* over compressing the MPEG2 stream due to the limited bandwidth.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

I also got the frequent blackout toward the end of last nights Olympics. 
Since we're dealing with the signal, the HDtivo box, the TV, and the connectors; there are many possible combinations. What works for someone(like our switching to 720)doesn't work for someone else.


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## miss_my_utv (Sep 29, 2005)

miss_my_utv said:


> Experienced the exact same thing (unwatchable during ski jump coverage - only) on a recording from the west coast NBC HD feed...


I posted the above because it was much worse than "normal", and basically became unwatchable.

I haven't followed this thread in awhile (edit: actually it would have been a similar thread last fall!) so the "issue" may be different than I recall, but I quit worrying about the occassional, intermittent blackout on HD channels a long time ago. I noticed them as soon as we got the HDTivo, found it annoying, checked in with the list and found it was common (so not unique to my equipment), and just accepted that it was what it was. Other than cases like above, it's just an annoyance (to me). Sure, I wish it were fixed, but if it's not unique to my equipment (i.e., it's a DTV-wide "feature"), there's not much I can do.

I understand the urge to troubleshoot, etc., but spending a lot of time attempting to fix it (demanding new equip, etc.) seems kind of fruitless to me. Unless you're seeing something unique, of course...


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## ntakidoo (Sep 25, 2005)

So much for the UPS doing jack squat to help with the dropouts.

We couldn't watch the end of the Olympics last night either. Worst dropouts ever. Not too bummed about missing the ski jumping, but the fact that we couldn't see Apolo's interview was a big bummer for me. He's so dreeeeeamy...  

In addition to the dropouts, our audio sync was out - anyone else see this too?


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## miss_my_utv (Sep 29, 2005)

ntakidoo said:


> So much for the UPS doing jack squat to help with the dropouts.
> 
> We couldn't watch the end of the Olympics last night either. Worst dropouts ever. Not too bummed about missing the ski jumping, but the fact that we couldn't see Apolo's interview was a big bummer for me. He's so dreeeeeamy...
> 
> In addition to the dropouts, our audio sync was out - anyone else see this too?


Yep, the audio was out of sync during the interview, also.

If there're going to be glitches, I wish they'd all happen during figure skating (when I _really_ miss the 300x FF from UTV!)...


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## dogdoctor (Feb 20, 2006)

I have read the thread top to bottom today as I am interested in getting the HD tivo before the non-tivo dvr is released....and what I am reading is pretty crappy/scary about all the blackouts and pixellation. From all that I can surmise from the reading is that the it is either a source problem or a DVR processing/output problem. Since I do not have one, and please forgive me if this is a redundant post (my first post on this site), but could someone run a test for me. 

You all seem to have found that the OTA signal through the dvr still blacks out at the same time the D* local HD signal does too. But has anyone looked at checking the OTA directly to the TV via splitter and to the DVR for consistency with the blackouts? You would have to watch the program live and then check the recorded program for errors. If the OTA to TV is normal but the OTA to DVR is messed up, then the blackout fault lies in the H10's processing and subsequent output of the same signal.

The reason I ask is that I in Sacramento almost never have HD blackouts to my OTA indoor antenna to the TV built in tuner. Mind you I am only 17 miles from the tower for all the locals. I would however like the ability to record the HD but it might be waste if the programs are all messed up. I will say to note though...that even without the H10 DVR the first night of the olympics on OTA to TV was horrible with every 10-15 minute pixellation breakups.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

I am watching the hockey on ch 82 this afternoon. Nothing but issues with audio dropouts and freezing pictures. I also watched some earlier morning shows on 82 in SD format and they were also plagued with issues.


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## mst3k (Jun 11, 2003)

Yeah, watching the Olympics in HD on the West Coast feed channel 83 is completely plagued by dropouts. Usually pix, sometimes sound, sometimes both.
Its very frustrating. 

Folks we have 5 pages worth of reports of this problem. I don't know who is to blame for it, but it is sincerely getting old.


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## TimmyVan (Sep 3, 2002)

Perhaps we "don't know who to blame" but, we do know who we pay for the service. And for me, the buck stops there. If everyone would call DirecTV with the problem, perhaps it would generate a response - and even better - a fix. When I called on the problem, I was told "You are the only one complaining." Obviously, looking at all the posts we have here - it's not just me.

From what DirecTV told me, MPEG4 is on the way - but - the dish is much larger than the triple LNB dish we have now, and the cable carries large amounts of information. So much information, that if it's even "pinched" into a tight spot (the hole drilled through a wall is tight for the cable) information will be lost. Rain fade will be a big problem, as the new set up is very unforgiving.

Will we have to buy a new dish? And a new DVR? And, from what I was told, you have to have the new dish installed by a professional - this seems to be quite a bit to ask for, to receive the quality we should be receiving today.

I have 20 months left on my commitment with DirecTV - then, if service isn't improved, I'm going to the competition. The only way to get something done is to first file a complaint - then, hit them in their pocketbooks.

TimmyVan


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## navymustang (Feb 19, 2006)

TimmyVan said:


> Perhaps we "don't know who to blame" but, we do know who we pay for the service. And for me, the buck stops there. If everyone would call DirecTV with the problem, perhaps it would generate a response - and even better - a fix. When I called on the problem, I was told "You are the only one complaining." Obviously, looking at all the posts we have here - it's not just me.


I called DirecTV yesterday and was told the SAME thing... YOU'RE the only one complaining about it!!! I told the customer service representative that there are five pages and counting here and a page full on the DTV forums about the problem. I asked exactly HOW MANY customers had to call and complain before somebody looks into it and he actually said that if FIVE people call and complain about the same thing, then it gets sent to their software engineers for evaluation. Can you say bunch of BS???

So, I recorded ID4 again this morning and discovered that the picture blanked out in the SAME exact place as the previous two times. Anyone else see that???

Mike


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

Well so much for my NBC only theory. Ch 88 Fox HD NY has been terrible tonight. Audio and picture freezes every few minutes. I wish my cable company had a decent DVR, that's the only thing preventing me from switching. I just wonder if the non HR10-250 users are having these issues.


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## TimmyVan (Sep 3, 2002)

Not to be too melodramatic - we should pick a date to call to complain, then all call on the same day. That would be the 5 calls they need for someone to look at this problem. So far I've had my DVR replaced once, 3 service calls, and a credit on my account for the next 3 months for this problem.

Imagine if we ALL called, lets just say, on March 1st at 8:00 pm est (and better yet, to the same customer service representative) ...


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## georgemoe (Nov 7, 2001)

gquiring said:


> Well so much for my NBC only theory. Ch 88 Fox HD NY has been terrible tonight. Audio and picture freezes every few minutes. I wish my cable company had a decent DVR, that's the only thing preventing me from switching. I just wonder if the non HR10-250 users are having these issues.


My Idol recording on Ch 88 was a mess last night. After an 1:15 min it only had about 20 minutes recorded. After watching 5 minutes, it rebooted. Wife was not happy. Recorded a bunch of other stuff yesterday in HD and all was fine. Maybe it is Fox5. I'm going to add a 2nd season pass OTA for Fox25 Boston and compare tonights recordings.


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

for what it's worth i watched a whole hockey game today in HD on CBC, a local network here, with no video OR audio dropouts at all via OTA with my HR10-250.


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## avdiscolo (Jan 31, 2006)

Does anyone here think they've solved their "blank out" issue?

DirecTV is coming out to my house for the second time tomorrow to try to fix this issue. After trying 3 different units in 4 weeks, I'm not holding my breath.


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## kquickle (Mar 1, 2005)

Since getting my unit in September, I can honestly say I have not had a single recording that did NOT have minimum 5 or 6 blanks per half hour on what seems like EVERY HD recording - National networks or HD Package - OTA or Satellite. I can't even imagine how many hours I've recorded and deleted since then. I have NEVER have the suggestions turned on. And the SD stuff I've recorded so far hasn't been much, but I really don't remember seeing it at all there.

Also, I ALWAYS get the audio and video "stutter" or "quick freeze" while watching live TV when I switch channels. Only when I change channels, though. Almost like the buffer is not starting soon enough and it needs to freeze for just a moment in order to "pick-up" that extra second to start the buffer. This is ALWAYS and CONSTANT - but also another topic!


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

kquickle said:


> Also, I ALWAYS get the audio and video "stutter" or "quick freeze" while watching live TV when I switch channels. Only when I change channels, though. Almost like the buffer is not starting soon enough and it needs to freeze for just a moment in order to "pick-up" that extra second to start the buffer. This is ALWAYS and CONSTANT - but also another topic!


i've had this from the get go too, kquickle.

it dosen't bother me though, unlike the dropouts afterwards.


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## TimmyVan (Sep 3, 2002)

avdiscolo said:


> Does anyone here think they've solved their "blank out" issue?
> 
> DirecTV is coming out to my house for the second time tomorrow to try to fix this issue. After trying 3 different units in 4 weeks, I'm not holding my breath.


Sadly,I don't think this issue will ever be resolved. (At least with the equipment we all currently own) First, DirecTV will have to acknowledge there is a problem, and so far they really haven't. Is it the locals causing the problems? The compression used? MPEG2 faults through the multi-switch on the LNB? There are so many variables - and DirecTV thinks "no one else is complaining."

If you get a repair, or at least information from the service call, please be sure to post it here. I'm sure we'd all be interested in what happens.

TimmyVan


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

I never had these issues when I first got my HR10-250 over a year ago. Mine is from the original batch, the drive failed after the first 3 months and I installed my own replacement drive because D* was 100% unreasonable with diagnosing my dead Tivo. I also had to replace my multi-switch the first year once the winter months hit, my switch could not handle temps below 17 degrees. 

I don't rememeber exactly when this started but I would guess 4-5 months ago? I know it did NOT exist when D* first started adding the NY locals on the MPEG2 feed.

Last night I watched Idol live and it had only one water like sound issue for 2 seconds. I did reboot my Tivo the previous day to see if that helps.


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## avdiscolo (Jan 31, 2006)

The DirecTV technician that came out to my house this morning hooked up an S-video cable between my HD10-250 and my TV to determine whether something to do with my TV could be causing the blackouts. When he replayed the very same recordings that had many blackouts at a lower definition, the blackouts went away completely.

I have a 5-year-old Sony HDTV that has only component inputs for HD that must be run at 1080i, so I'm kind of out of luck for HD in this configuration.

My conclusion is that there is either something wrong with the 1080i conversion in the HD10-250, or some interaction between the HD10-250 and my TV running at 1080i that is causing the blackouts.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

avdiscolo said:


> The DirecTV technician that came out to my house this morning hooked up an S-video cable between my HD10-250 and my TV to determine whether something to do with my TV could be causing the blackouts. When he replayed the very same recordings that had many blackouts at a lower definition, the blackouts went away completely.
> 
> I have a 5-year-old Sony HDTV that has only component inputs for HD that must be run at 1080i, so I'm kind of out of luck for HD in this configuration.
> 
> My conclusion is that there is either something wrong with the 1080i conversion in the HD10-250, or some interaction between the HD10-250 and my TV running at 1080i that is causing the blackouts.


Then how do the blackouts explain the no audio?? Your audio goes also during the blank out?

My setup is a Panasonic Plasma (no speakers) with component, Yamaha receiver using optical hookup. I get no audio during the blanks and get a lot of audio and picture freezing.


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

avdiscolo said:


> The DirecTV technician that came out to my house this morning hooked up an S-video cable between my HD10-250 and my TV to determine whether something to do with my TV could be causing the blackouts. When he replayed the very same recordings that had many blackouts at a lower definition, the blackouts went away completely.


This gets stranger & stranger. I did the exact same experiment/test days ago, read my post number 111 on this thread. I neglected to mention in that post that when I played back my recordings containing the blackouts in 480i, I was hooked up to my Sony CRT via S-video. The blackouts were still there . When I'm hooked up to my Panny Plasma via HDMI the recorded blackouts show up in exactly the same places whether the output is 480p, 720p or 1080i.

As I stated before, what's recorded on the hard drive "stays on the hard drive" - playing it back using different rez outputs really shouldn't change what's displayed on the TV.


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

sorry for going off topic, just a quick question for gquiring and Wirelezz.

i see you guys both have Panasonic plasma displays, what do you think about the TH-50PHD8UK i ordered online yesterday?


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

joetoronto said:


> sorry for going off topic, just a quick question for gquiring and Wirelezz.
> 
> i see you guys both have Panasonic plasma displays, what do you think about the TH-50PHD8UK i ordered online yesterday?


The short answer: "You will love it!"

I have the TH-42PHD8UK, and the PQ is fantastic. For those who don't know, this series of Panny Plasma's are the commercial models, and are actually broadcast quality studio monitors. No speakers, no tuners. Perfect for a D* setup with surround sound where a built in tuner & speakers are wasted (they do have a built in audio amp & speaker outputs on the back). A very clean look with just the plasma screen surrounded by a thin black bezel.

<<CHECK IT OUT>>

Joe, if you plan on hooking your Panny up via HDMI, you will have to order a TY-FB7HM HDMI Card as these units only ship with component, AV, S-video & PC inputs. Also, if you go component, you will need BNC to RCA adapters (Radio Shack, $5.00 ea.) as the component inputs are BNC connectors.

Enjoy your new toy!!

-- 
Wirelezz


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## avdiscolo (Jan 31, 2006)

I now have a new Sony KFE42A10 connected to my HD10-250 via HDMI and I have not experienced one blank out. I'll let you all know if I run into any issues with this setup.


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## MoonRaker (Feb 24, 2006)

I am by no means knowledgable in this area, but maybe I can help dispell some of the thought processes about our equipment being the problem. I have a D* DVR bought at X-mas, I assume its the model # everyone refers to. Its on a 50" Zenith HD ready 4:3 screen TV. I also have a Sammy 360 on a 56" Panisonic widescreen....both receivers on the same triple LNB oval dish. Both TV's also are hooked to a ChannelMaster Off Air ant. Almost ALL of my issues are on FOX. These issues are related to a moment of green screen pixilation, a momentary screen freeze/black-out...then the lip sync problem immediately starts, and will continue until I change the channel. This is on my Sammy 360 while I am watching on the over-the-air ant. broadcast coming out of the St. Louis affiliate. If I switch the channel back to the standard def D* sat broadcast, the pixelation, and blackout problems do not occur, and if I go back to the OTA HD broadcast, the lip sync issues are fixed. My D* DVR expeiences the same pixelation and screen black-out problem as the Sammy 360 is having. Another thing I have noticed with the DVR is that I can't watch CBS in 1080i......if I do it will blankout every 10 seconds or so. This all started up again about a month ago for me like many others. Out of the blue, both receivers started having issues simultaneously. The funny thing is, I joined the Hi-Def forum last year Jan after I got my Sammy because the same thing was occuring then, and I was asking questions. I had bought it in November 2004. No problems until Jan/Feb 2005. It was Fox having the problem then as well. After a little time, the problem went away, and I enjoyed almost a year with no problems, and now here we go again. Is there any way this could be related to the weather or time of year? I read a post where some of you think these issues are starting to lessen. Maybe the cycle, atmospheric or otherwise, is turning back the other way. I do not think it is the D* DVR, the Sammy 360, my TV's, or HDMI. I do not think it is a particular network either as some have thought. How could it be, when everyone has issues on differant networks? 

The LNB possibility is interesting I will say, 

I would like to know if people who have DISH NETWORK experience this.....does anyone know? That could explain alot if they don't.


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## jimphillips224 (May 9, 2005)

I get these 1-2 sec black out's and I don't have DTV. I am using an old Voom HD receiver to get OTA HD. No satellite account. Most channels seem to be affected, but I notice them mostly on Fox and WB. On average, I will get 5 black outs during a 30 minute show.


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## MoonRaker (Feb 24, 2006)

jimphillips224 said:


> I get these 1-2 sec black out's and I don't have DTV. I am using an old Voom HD receiver to get OTA HD. No satellite account. Most channels seem to be affected, but I notice them mostly on Fox and WB. On average, I will get 5 black outs during a 30 minute show.


If that is the case, I don't see how a person could point the finger at Direct TV as the problem. True enough their CSR's basically suck, but............

One thing I didn't mention in my other post....I have a standard definition receiver that is a rebuilt unit DTV sent me late last year when my old one went out. Ironically about 1 month or more ago, it started having a problem with video and audio blanking out every few minutes. It has been consistently doing this. It is on the same satellite and LNB as the as the two HD receivers I have. It doesn't pixelate because its not HD I guess, but its blanking out like the HD receivers.

This is even more interesting. Because all of my LNB ports are being used on the oval HD dish, and I had another receiver, I put my old standard Dish back on the roof, and hooked this extra reciever to it. I HAVE HAD NO ISSUES AT ALL WITH THIS RECEIVER ON THE OLD DISH. This would point back to that HD dish as possibly being the problem, or the LNB as mentioned in other posts, since I have two SDTV receivers on two CRT televisions, and the one on the HD dish is the one screwing up.

JIM, What dish and LNB do you have?


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

MoonRaker said:


> I put my old standard Dish back on the roof, and hooked this extra reciever to it. I HAVE HAD NO ISSUES AT ALL WITH THIS RECEIVER ON THE OLD DISH. This would point back to that HD dish as possibly being the problem, or the LNB as mentioned in other posts, since I have two SDTV receivers on two CRT televisions, and the one on the HD dish is the one screwing up.


I alluded to the Triple LNB w/ built in multiswitch as maybe contributing to this problem in my first post #74 in this thread.

I received my HR10-250 one month ago and for the first 10 days after receiving my new HR10 I initially hooked it up to my old existing dual channel single LNB dish while waiting for my Phase III dish to arrive. I was able to receive CBSW HD CH 81 with the existing single LNB dish (CH 81 is currently broadcasting from the 101 satellite). For those first 10 days I recorded and viewed several HD broadcasts from CH81 with absolutely no problems, that is until my new triple LNB Phase III dish arrived. Only after installing/aligning it (with a resulting signal strength in the mid 90's on all three Sats.) did the blackouts begin. A little more than coincidental I would say.

I'm thinking the cause is some combination of the HR10 + Phase III dish + marginal quality signal (amount of compression / bitrate) from either the networks or D*'s Sats or NOC which is preventing the HR10 from properly decoding the MPEG2 video/audio stream. Perhaps the Phase III multiswitch is introducing glitches / errors to the signal? If this is the case then the HR10 probably suffers from either an inferior decoder chip or poor or inadequate related circuit design (or both) and is unable to do error correction and recover when the signal is less than excellent.


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## MoonRaker (Feb 24, 2006)

Wirelezz said:


> I'm thinking the cause is some combination of the HR10 + Phase III dish + marginal quality signal (amount of compression / bitrate) from either the networks or D*'s Sats or NOC which is preventing the HR10 from properly decoding the MPEG2 video/audio stream. Perhaps the Phase III multiswitch is introducing glitches / errors to the signal? If this is the case then the HR10 probably suffers from either an inferior decoder chip or poor or inadequate related circuit design (or both) and is unable to do error correction and recover when the signal is less than excellent.


But if other receivers with strong signal strength, or broadcasts on OTA antennas are having the same issues, why point the finger at the HR10, or even the LNB for that matter? It's not part of the equation when I am watching my HD FOX OTA broadcast on my Samsung 360.


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

MoonRaker said:


> But if other receivers with strong signal strength, or broadcasts on OTA antennas are having the same issues, why point the finger at the HR10, or even the LNB for that matter? It's not part of the equation when I am watching my HD FOX OTA broadcast on my Samsung 360.


Strong signal strength does not equate to good signal quality. IMHO the problem is caused by an occasional corrupt MPEG2 stream from the source. I'm not necessarily pointing the finger at the HR10, but it just may be that it has a much harder time correcting these errors than other D* receivers. Also HD OTA signals are no different than HD Sat. signals in that they have to be decoded also. So if the problem is with the source (the networks), then of course the blackouts will be seen OTA as well.

Statistically, if you read this thread top to bottom, the HR10 is sited way more often than any other receiver as having this problem. That's the only reason I am as you say "pointing the finger" at the HR10...


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

i also had no problem with my original HD250(which died after 4 months) but started having the blackouts with my replacement. A combination of differences within the HDdvrs and the connections to the TV seem to lead to all kinds of variances in the blackout problem. 
Sure would like to know what percentage of people with HD250s have this problem.


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

Wirelezz said:


> The short answer: "You will love it!"
> 
> I have the TH-42PHD8UK, and the PQ is fantastic. For those who don't know, this series of Panny Plasma's are the commercial models, and are actually broadcast quality studio monitors. No speakers, no tuners. Perfect for a D* setup with surround sound where a built in tuner & speakers are wasted (they do have a built in audio amp & speaker outputs on the back). A very clean look with just the plasma screen surrounded by a thin black bezel.
> 
> ...


oh i will, thanks Wirelezz.

i ordered 3 BNC adapters because i'll be using component for now. the receiver i'm using doesn't have HDMI. (sammy TS-160)


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## laurentmayer (Mar 1, 2006)

[Previous attempt to post escaped me... sorry for the incomplete message]

I'm particularly interested in this thread as I just ordered an HD10-250 and am about to buy a Pan TH-50PHDUK to connect via HDMI.

I'm no expert like other members but I wonder if the problem is not that Tivo write to disk buffer gets full or something. Tivo is just a computer writing HD signal to disk. It may be that the signal is at times too much for the hard disk to keep up, and the write buffer gets full -- which would maybe explain the 1-2 sec blank while Tivo disk drive is catching up.

So my questions are this:

1) Does this anomaly occurs with non-HD channels?
Probably less data to write...

2) Does it happen with ONLY selected HD channels, but not all? (e.g. on NBC but never on HBO).

It seems to me that:
-- if the problem is with broadcaster, this should happen whether or not you have Tivo in the loop... And it should happen whether through D* or OTA.

-- if the problem is with the D* satellite dish, it should happen whether or not you have Tivo in the loop...

Thanks for specifying which channels this happens with, whether HD or not, and which work fine (and whether HD or not).

Anxiously waiting to hear...


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

laurentmayer said:


> ... I wonder if the problem is not that Tivo write to disk buffer gets full or something. Tivo is just a computer writing HD signal to disk. It may be that the signal is at times too much for the hard disk to keep up, and the write buffer gets full -- which would maybe explain the 1-2 sec blank while Tivo disk drive is catching up.


Good point, and very likely to be a factor contributing to this problem. Doesn't explain why this is only seen on the network HD channels however (ABC, CBS, NBC, etc.).



laurentmayer said:


> 1) Does this anomaly occurs with non-HD channels? Probably less data to write...


No.



laurentmayer said:


> 2) Does it happen with ONLY selected HD channels, but not all? (e.g. on NBC but never on HBO).


In my situation, it only happens with the network HD channels. I've not experienced this blackout phenomena on the 70's HD channels (HBO, etc.)



laurentmayer said:


> It seems to me that: if the problem is with broadcaster, this should happen whether or not you have Tivo in the loop... And it should happen whether through D* or OTA.


And that's the way it is... blackouts seen in both Sat. & OTA reception.



laurentmayer said:


> -- if the problem is with the D* satellite dish, it should happen whether or not you have Tivo in the loop...


I agree...

There has been a noticeable improvement of this problem in the last week, but it has not been entirely eliminated. The Winter Olympics were especially bad, and this was especially disappointing for me as I was motivated to purchase my HR10 and Panny Plasma mainly to watch the Olympics in HiDef. Perhaps the difficulties of broadcasting from Italy was a factor.

--
Wirelezz


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

Wirelezz said:


> There has been a noticeable improvement of this problem in the last week, but it has not been entirely eliminated. The Winter Olympics were especially bad, and this was especially disappointing for me as I was motivated to purchase my HR10 and Panny Plasma mainly to watch the Olympics in HiDef. *Perhaps the difficulties of broadcasting from Italy was a factor.*
> --
> Wirelezz


how can that be, Wireless?

i remember perfect picture and audio coming from the moon in 1969. 

don't tell me the moon landing was a hoax!


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## laurentmayer (Mar 1, 2006)

Thank you to Wirelezz for additional details.
These point to broadcast issues by the networks.

The thing that is disconcerting, however, is the report that the Tivo recording is missing the bottom time bar. Shouldn't the bar be there even if there is a loss of signal (blank recording)?...


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

joetoronto said:


> how can that be, Wireless?
> 
> i remember perfect picture and audio coming from the moon in 1969.
> 
> don't tell me the moon landing was a hoax!


HA HA! And the latest still photos from Mars ain't to shabby either!!  

Say Joe, has your new Panny arrived yet?


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## Wirelezz (Jan 27, 2006)

laurentmayer said:


> Thank you to Wirelezz for additional details.
> These point to broadcast issues by the networks.
> 
> The thing that is disconcerting, however, is the report that the Tivo recording is missing the bottom time bar. Shouldn't the bar be there even if there is a loss of signal (blank recording)?...


You've read this thread very thoroughly haven't you! 

You are correct:
Actually, my HR10 was very new to me when I made that statement. At that time to further analyze this blackout problem I ran through those recorded blackouts in slow motion, and what I didn't know then is when you first put the HR10 in slo-mode the time bar shows for about 2 seconds and then disappears. So the dissapearence of the time bar concurred with the black screen making it appear as though it was caused by the blackout itself. Duh!!  The blackouts usually never last more than 5 - 10 seconds and when you fast forward or reverse through the recorded blackouts those black sections go by so fast you don't really even see them. That's why I viewed them in slo-mo.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I just edited that bit of mis-information from that post.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

Laurentmayer:

The fact of the matter is, everybody seems to have slightly different video problems with the HR10-250. Some have the problem only with the network HD, some have problems with ESPN HD, some have problems with HD Net, etc, etc. Just when I think I've narrowed the problem down to a couple of channels, I have problems with other ones that have been good in the past. ESPN HD, ABC and NBC have seemed the worst for me. CBS, FOX and HBO were pretty good. But lately, I've had problems with CBS and FOX. The video problems seem almost completely random. I have problems with both satellite HD and OTA. Recently I've also had some problems with SD channels. And then, I'll watch 3 or 4 programs in a row and they are perfect. I never know what shows will be good and which will have the video blackouts and stuttering. I do not believe it has anything to do with a bad harddrive. I do not think it has anything to do with low signal. It has nothing to do with high temperature of the unit. It is not an HDMI issue. All my cables and the LNB have been checked and rechecked. The problem sucks and I don't believe it will be getting better anytime soon. It has been going on for over a year now. D* barely acknowledges the problem as they seem to claim that everytime someone calls in about this video blackout issue, it is the first they are hearing about it, That is obviously nonsense. I think that the truth of the matter is the HR10-250 is more susceptible to this video blackout and stuttering problem than other HD receivers. Why, I don't have a clue.


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

Wirelezz said:


> HA HA! And the latest still photos from Mars ain't to shabby either!!
> 
> Say Joe, has your new Panny arrived yet?


it's arriving today as a matter of fact, Wireless.

it so happens i won't be going in to the office today.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

Here's an interesting development. I watched the Oscars at a friends house who has a Hr10-250. We watched on West Coast Satellite Channel 87 ABC. My friend insisted to me in the past that he never had any issues with video blackouts or stuttering. The broadcast was filled with blackouts and stuttering and pixellation. I Tivoed it at home and had the same problem. So you would think we have a problem on the broadcast end of things. Another friend has cable and he watched in on Cable HD and said he had no video problems at all. He has Time Warner cable. That would imply that it is not a broadcast problem, but ???

Did anyone watch it on OTA HD? Were there problems on OTA?? The randomness of this video problem is what makes it so annoying. You just never know whether a show your watching will have no problem or be awful with stuttering, etc.


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## jimphillips224 (May 9, 2005)

Yeah, I watched the Oscar's over my OTA HD and had 5 or 6 blackouts. The audio kept going as it usually does. There was about an hour during the middle that I missed; the gf and I got frisky.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

I noticed something that made my eyes go wide open. I bought a heating pad to aid in my recovery from having my hips replaced recently. When I turned on the pad it glitched my HR10-250! The pad only draws 50 watts. I switched over to my Xbox XBMC and tried the same thing and no glitch. So the plasma panel and receiver are not effected only the Tivo. 

I suspect the power supply in the Tivo is not up to par. Maybe a better quality UPS may be the answer that someone noted a while back in this thread. I am using a cheapo Belkin I picked up from Home Depot a couple of years ago. This could explain some of the issues we all have that seem to be different.


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

Ragsy said:


> Here's an interesting development. I watched the Oscars at a friends house who has a Hr10-250. We watched on West Coast Satellite Channel 87 ABC. My friend insisted to me in the past that he never had any issues with video blackouts or stuttering. The broadcast was filled with blackouts and stuttering and pixellation. I Tivoed it at home and had the same problem. So you would think we have a problem on the broadcast end of things. Another friend has cable and he watched in on Cable HD and said he had no video problems at all. He has Time Warner cable. That would imply that it is not a broadcast problem, but ???
> 
> Did anyone watch it on OTA HD? Were there problems on OTA?? The randomness of this video problem is what makes it so annoying. You just never know whether a show your watching will have no problem or be awful with stuttering, etc.


my daughter was watching the oscars on my new panny plasma which has an old sammy TS-160 receiver attached to it, *NOT* the tivo, and there was a hell of a lot of video dropouts.

this is clearly not a problem with the HR10-250 if you ask me.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

OK. If it wasn't a problem with the Hr10-250 specifically then what was the problem with the Oscar video? I would be most curious to hear from others who have Cable HD to see if they had the same issues. The one person I checked with claims no problems with the HD Oscars on his Cable. Was it somehow a D* problem which was evident on both OTA and Satellite HD thru D*? During the rap number, my friends TV went crazy, glitching with every strobe light. This is apparently a known issue with digital broadcast and stobe lights. Yet my TV had no problem with that segment of the show. Very odd. What I do find interesting is that my friend had claimed no issues with his HR10-250 and I couldn't figure out why his had no problems and mine did. Turns out he simply doesn't pay nuch attention to that kind of thing and had the same issues I have. How many people are like that? If there are a bunch of folks out there who had no issues with the Oscar show in HD, then I am totally baffled as to the cause of the problems some of us had. But did everyone have these issues??? If so, the broadcast would obviously be to blame. Lets hear from those of you that had no issues whatsoever with the HD broadcast of the Oscars, if you are out there.


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## RonH54 (Jul 3, 2004)

I started using my HR10-250 last Friday. I don't have my HD set yet so this unit is running to my old Sony CRT via S-video connection and audio is running through my Surround sound system. I have had 1 Video "blackout"(still had audio) and one audio drop so far. The audio came right back on in about 5 seconds,the video lasted about minute or so.. GRRRRRRR


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

Here are my results from this weeks American Idol on Ch 88 (NY HD)

Audio Glitches Tue:
8:03,8:05,8:08,8:11,8:13,8:16,8:19,8:21,8:24,8:27

Audio Glitches Wed:
8:02,8:03,8:05,8:08,8:10,8:13,8:16,8:18,8:18,8:21,8:24,8:26,8:50

Audio Glitches Thu:
8:07

Blackouts Wed:
8:02, 8:15

If you look closely almost no glitches after 8:27 for Tue or Wed, why? Thursday was almost flawless. I watched several other shows on ABC like Invasion and Boston Public with no issues. I just don't get these inconsistencies.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

And therein lies the problem. There is no real consistency to the audio and video problems. Just when you think you have it figured out, the pattern changes. Shows that never have a problem all of sudden develop problems and others that have problems get better for a time. My conclusion, so far, is that there is some combination of broadcasting issues and HR10-250 issues as well as some D* issues that all combine to create a totally unpredictable set of problems, both video and audio.


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## jazzwind (Dec 9, 2005)

I am also seeing these blackouts, usually 3-5 secs, both video and audio, happening once every hour or two. Except that if I rewind about 5 sec and replay the portion that blacked out, the video and audio are there. Has anyone else experienced this? At first I suspected my Panasonic TH50 plasma but after reading this thread I'm thinking it might be the HR10-250.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

I have experienced similar problems, but my scenario differs from some here.

I have two HR10-250 HD TiVo's. One is connected HDMI to an LCD HDTV display. The other is connected component video to a rear-projection CRT HDTV display.

In both cases, I do not see the blackouts being described.

For a time, I had one HD TiVo connected to my small, 15" LCD HDTV using component video (at 1080i). With this combination, I get get video blackouts every time there is a very bright (usually white or near-white) picture, such as during a still-camera flash, or an explosion in a show, or any other very bright scene. Watching the same live or recorded program on my other HDTVs, I never see this issue.

Now I have the little LCD HDTV connected to a Hughes E-86 HD STB, receiving DirecTV and OTA HD (just like with the TiVo's, but no recording capability). I get the very same types of dropouts on bright scenes, whether watching satellite HD channels or OTA HD channels. 

At this point I suspect that the HDTV cannot handle the bright scenes. I once had a Hitachi 36" direct-view CRT HD-ready TV, and it had the very same symptoms, but only on component inputs, not RGB. There was a factory service bulletin that called for some component changes to resolve the problem, which it did.

So, I believe that at least one possible problem here is some issue with the signals being incompatible (maybee too high of voltage) on a component video connection during very bright scenes. It does not affect all HDTVs, since I have two that do not seem to have the problem. (I have tested the component inputs on the larger LCD HDTV that I currently have connected via HDMI, and saw no problem).

The fact that my non-TiVo HD receiver also interacts identically with my small LCD HDTV leads me to believe that the TV is at least partly at fault. BTW, with a different HD receiver, fed via RGB, the little LCD HDTV works perfectly--no blackouts at 1080i.

I would suggest that folks pay attention to whether the video blackouts occur at very bright scenes only, or not.


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## Ragsy (Aug 15, 2005)

The video stuttering and blackouts I have on my HR10-250 do not occur during very bright scenes. They appear at random times with no apparent cause.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

I don't believe it has anything to do with the video brightness, as any blackout I see also has no audio.


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## terrylmc (Jun 25, 2003)

Did anyone ever come up with a resolution to this? My HD Tivo has been doing the same thing.. The HR20 I have isn't doing it.


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## TimmyVan (Sep 3, 2002)

As far as I can see, the problem lies at the source, and has no reflection on TiVo, or DirecTV. HD television isn't quite perfected yet, and the "blank spots" that appear occasionally are directly from the source at NBC, CBS, NBC and so on. The uplink to the satellite at DirecTV must be different than of standard definition. When recording a show on a non-HD channel, I don't see a problem with the recording, of the same show - the same spot - where there is a problem on HD as you compare side by side.

NBC has gotten much better over time, and my hope is that it will continue to improve as they refine the process.

I hope this helps!


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## stivovance (Feb 12, 2003)

After switching & recording everything except CBS via OTA HD, I don't have any problems. I see the occasional stutter (less than 3) this year on CBS. OTA on NBC, ABC and FOX has been near flawless. The occassional pixelation but that could be the placement of my antenna or local OTA problems, but I'd take that any day over the blackouts.


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## TimmyVan (Sep 3, 2002)

Steve,

Do you have any idea how to find out if my area is close enough to receive OTA HD? A website perhaps, with ZIP CODE that could estimate receiving radius? If you're near flawless OTA vs. DirecTV HD - it would be worth looking into.

Thanks!


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## gworkman (Feb 6, 2006)

www.antennaweb.org will give you a decent estimate.


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## stivovance (Feb 12, 2003)

The nice thing is it also shows you what antenna you should get via the color coding on the channels. I knew that the antenna I got (square shooter 2000) wouldn't be the best for CBS here in Chicago (3-1) but I only wish I wouldn't have waited 6 months to get the antenna. I had a zenith silver sensor outside and it worked pretty good until the neighbors rose bushes grew in the spring and overpowered it. So I put up the squareshooter and was just amazed by the difference. The rose bushes grew later in the summer so before the fall season, I moved the squareshooter up on our 3rd floor and have yet to be disappointed by that decision.


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