# Vudu on Tivo?



## larrs (May 2, 2005)

The tivo announcements are coming fast and furious (Netflix, AmazonHD, Blockbuster). 

I would think that using a Tivo as a Vudu box would be quite easy. I know the chips in the Tivo support 1080/24P but have never been enabled to do so. If they did via an update (both DirecTV and Dish did this and their boxes have the same Broadcom chip that is in the Tivo), and added Vudu functionality at the smae time, it would seem to me to be a terrific way to get the Vudu HDX (1080/24p almost Blu Ray Quality) library of somewhere around 500 movies out to a bunch of users- there has to be over a million HD tivos out there. I would think that the Tivo owner could even choose to enable p2p (which is how Vudu gets HDX's large file sizes to work) in order to get HDX videos, and if they chose not to, they could be limited to the regular HD version- which is still excellent on Vudu.

Tivo and Vudu are two of the best the best CE products I have ever bought. It would be great to see them together.

Am I missing something here?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

What announcement was there with Blockbuster?


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

I would patronize TiVo/Vudu in HDX quality in a heartbeat *IFF* the rental period was at least 30 hours.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

It won't change with them until it changes with everyone else. the content providers have control over the rental period..


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> It won't change with them until it changes with everyone else. the content providers have control over the rental period..


The content providers unethical control over insance rental period is one of the reasons I use Netflix DVD/Blu-ray rental, then rip the disc to my NAS & then watch (& of course delete after watching) the movies I get. This way I get to watch them on MY OWN time, in MY OWN leisure.

I would love to see DVD's & Blu-ray discs *banished *from this world. As the *production & distribution* of these discs is *HARMFULL* to our enviroment. Downloading/Streaming is much nicer to our enviroment!

However, because of the following reasons.... DL's & Streaming will take a while to replace DVD/Blu-ray discs.

*1. No "Extras" included*

*2. Picture Quality* as compared to a Blu-ray

*3. Sound Quality* as compared to 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 DD-HD &/or DTS-HD. (You can get 5.1 from DL's & Streaming content, but you *can't* get the DTS, DTS-HD, or DD-HD)

*4. BD-Live... *Now I will agree currently BD-Live content is very lack luster, but according to Sony that should change in the next couple of months.

*5. Portability. *This is probably the *ONE BIGGEST *reason why it will be a while before DL's & Streaming replace DVD/Blu-Rays. As of yet, you CAN'T take your DL/Streamed content & play in your RV/Boat/Plane or Vehicle Entertainment system. You can't even take it over to your freinds house for a "Movie" party. Doesn't matter if your DL/Streamed content is rented or purchased.

*6. Limited Rental/Purchase plans.* It's great for those who rent 1 to 4 movies per month. Borderline for rentals of 5 to 7 movies per month. Over that amount it's much less expensive to get NETFLIX! (with or without blu-ray)

I do love the "Concept", just currently *HATE* it's implementation.

TGC


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> What announcement was there with Blockbuster?


here's the official release
http://tivo.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=373

there's a few threads here and google gets you several thousand hits too.

due nd half of 2009


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## rocko (Oct 29, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> I use Netflix DVD/Blu-ray rental, then rip the disc to my NAS & then watch (& of course delete after watching) the movies I get. This way I get to watch them on MY OWN time, in MY OWN leisure.


What tool are you using to rip your stuff? I've tried various utilities but am not impressed with any of them. Oh, and free is preferred


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

rocko said:


> What tool are you using to rip your stuff? I've tried various utilities but am not impressed with any of them. Oh, and free is preferred


I'd like to know too, and what you are playing it back on. My turnaround time for Blu Rays makes me a very unhappy Netflix subscriber. On the three out at a time plan, I am getting hosed because I can't watch more than 2 movies a week.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

TexasGrillChef said:


> However, because of the following reasons.... DL's & Streaming will take a while to replace DVD/Blu-ray discs....
> 
> *5. Portability. *This is probably the *ONE BIGGEST *reason why it will be a while before DL's & Streaming replace DVD/Blu-Rays. As of yet, you CAN'T take your DL/Streamed content & play in your RV/Boat/Plane or Vehicle Entertainment system. You can't even take it over to your freinds house for a "Movie" party. Doesn't matter if your DL/Streamed content is rented or purchased.
> 
> ...


Just an FYI, I do take my Vudu box in the car and on vacation all of the time. All downloaded content is available to watch. The box is small enough that it is very portable.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

TexasGrillChef said:


> The content providers unethical control over insane rental period is one of the reasons I use Netflix DVD/Blu-ray rental, then rip the disc to my NAS & then watch (& of course delete after watching) the movies I get. This way I get to watch them on MY OWN time, in MY OWN leisure.


Why do you have to rip the discs in order to accomplish this, when Netflix allows you to keep them as long as you want? I believe I had "The Sum of All Fears" out for more than a year. 



TexasGrillChef said:


> However, because of the following reasons.... DL's & Streaming will take a while to replace DVD/Blu-ray discs.
> 
> *2. Picture Quality* as compared to a Blu-ray
> *3. Sound Quality* as compared to 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 DD-HD &/or DTS-HD.


If history has taught us anything, it's that convenience usually trumps quality when it comes to the average consumer. It's sad, but true. That's why SACD and DVD-Audio failed, while iPods became one of the best selling CE devices in history. Heck, even CDs sound better than a majority of the music that people are downloading these days.

I do agree that the 24-hour rental period for watching downloaded movies is a joke. IMHO, it should be a minimum of 48 hours. I really wish they would let you watch the entire movie at least once, regardless of how much time has passed. It hardly seems fair that you pay 5-6 bucks to watch a film, and only end up watching half of it. The problem is that the content providers are still stuck on the old video tape rental model. That model may have made sense back in the days where a video rental store only had a finite number of a given title on hand, but it seems absurd when you are talking about a digital download.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

TexasGrillChef said:


> The content providers unethical control over insance rental period is one of the reasons I use Netflix DVD/Blu-ray rental, then rip the disc to my NAS & then watch (& of course delete after watching) the movies I get. This way I get to watch them on MY OWN time, in MY OWN leisure.


So if you are deleting your rips, why go through that process in the first place as Netflix (and BB) lets you keep them as long as you want so you can "watch them on YOUR OWN time, in YOUR OWN leisure."?

I'm sorry... but I find it laughable that someone ripping rented DVD/Blu-ray's is complaining about the unethical behavior of others.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> So if you are deleting your rips, why go through that process in the first place as Netflix (and BB) lets you keep them as long as you want so you can "watch them on YOUR OWN time, in YOUR OWN leisure."?
> 
> I'm sorry... but I find it laughable that someone ripping rented DVD/Blu-ray's is complaining about the unethical behavior of others.


I was in that camp for a while as well myself, the issue I saw being that I turn more movies around that ups the costs to netflix- but got really tired of waiting for DVDs from Netflix - I currently have 10 movies at the top of my queue in Long wait or very long wait. I certainly wish the folks with those movies did not leave them sitting on top of the DVD player for the next 3 or so weeks

So now I rip the DVDs* (not an HD fanatic _yet_) and send them back within a couple of days. My family is not big on extras or re-watching a movie so no real problem there and the few DVDs that fall into that category (like LOTR for me) I buy outright.

This way I do have a list of "DVDs" from Netflix to watch that is easy to access. I look forward to the day Netflix can offer more with the instant watch streaming app on TiVo (that is watch whenever I want and take 3 weeks to fully watch if that is how my time works out) and will gladly stop the manual in between process of ripping DVDs to my hard drive.

* I use DVDshrink and DVDFab (both shareware) to pull the main movie and a very few of the extras that do intrigue me to my drive as one VOB file. I used to rename the extension to .mpg but the TiVo sometimes had trouble with the time stamps that way and FF/RW did not work correctly.
So I sprung for VideoRedo and found that it conditions the VOB perfectly as an mpeg2 for TiVo playback and have not had an issue since.
As an added benefit I can use it to edit out the naughty parts of movies that are otherwise alright for the kids to see, like in "Space Truckers" and that one really weird scene with the Bionic bad guy.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> really tired of waiting for DVDs from Netflix


If you're unhappy with Netflix you may wish to check out Blockbuster. I have never seen a wait on DVDs and only an occasional wait on some new Blu-Rays. Turnaround time for me is usually 2-3 days from post office to mailbox.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> If you're unhappy with Netflix you may wish to check out Blockbuster. I have never seen a wait on DVDs and only an occasional wait on some new Blu-Rays. Turnaround time for me is usually 2-3 days from post office to mailbox.


does that hold for the new releases as well? because the wait is only on the new releases - older stuff I also have in my queue does turn right around. My queue depth may be doing me in since they decide there is plenty of other movies to send me


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> does that hold for the new releases as well?


Yes... with Blu-Rays too (which is almost exclusively what I rent). I like the fact that they don't charge extra for BRs. Occasionally I see a wait on some BRs but the DVDs are almost always available. I admit I don't always get why some discs have waits in so much as they're usually not new releases.

I am guessing they have more inventory and less customers than Netflix at this point.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> I am guessing they have more inventory and less customers than Netflix at this point.


Way less customers, I would think.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

rocko said:


> What tool are you using to rip your stuff? I've tried various utilities but am not impressed with any of them. Oh, and free is preferred


I have tried the Free version. DVD Fab works great for free. Although the old addage you get what you pay for really works here as well.

I use AnyDVD that runs in the background and removes all the DRM stuff for both Blu-ray and DVD's on the fly. Then for DVD's I use one of several commerically available programs to actually pull the main movie off the DVD and write it to a MPG2 file on my NAS. For that I mainly use Roxio Easy Media Creator 10. If I need closed captions &/or subtitles because its a foreign film, or one that just has a poor voice track I use VidoeStudio Pro X2 and it will write the file as a MPG2 with CC & ST.

For Blu-ray's I have to use about 1/2 dozen programs. All of these are free. Honestly is a time consuming pain in the ass. I only Rip Blu-rays I actually want to keep! However AnyDVD does the main hardwork of removing the DRM stuff on the fly. Go to the Doom9 forum. They have lots of suggestions for *FREE* stuff on ripping & converting your Blu-rays.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

larrs said:


> I'd like to know too, and what you are playing it back on. My turnaround time for Blu Rays makes me a very unhappy Netflix subscriber. On the three out at a time plan, I am getting hosed because I can't watch more than 2 movies a week.


I watch the Blu-rays that I rip on my TiVo. But like I said it really is a pain in the butt. Some Blu-rays are easier than others. Just depends on the VIDEO format that is being used on a Blu-ray.

Video on a Blu-ray can come in 3 flavors. MPG2, H.264 & VC1. MPG2 was used on older Blu-ray's. But I haven't seen it being used on any of the movies released in the last 6 months. (At least any that I have ripped.) I would say that about 60% are H.264 and the rest are VC1. I can't remember which studio it is off the top of my head but they are using ONLY VC1 on their Blu-ray discs.

I use AnyDVD (Which isn't free) to remove the region coding & DRM being used on the fly. A *GOOD FREE* program to Rip the Blu-ray to a "HARD DRIVE FOLDER" would be *DVDFab*. Sometimes I use it as well. It works MOST of the time, but because its FREE it takes an extra* MONTH *or two for them to update it for the *LATEST* movies. AnyDVD they update about 2 or 3 times a month. As a result you never have to wait more than a week or two *AFTER* a *NEW* Blu-ray movie is released. Theres your advantage to paying $30 for AnyDVD.

The next step is you need to find a Demuxing program. This will find the main movie video track & Audio track. & create 2 files on your computer. The program I use is free. *TSMuxer*

Ok now that you have created 2 files. A video file and your audio file. You may or maynot need to convert these to play on your TiVo. Example... If your Audio track is a DD-HD, or DTS, or DTS-HD you will have to CONVERT that audio file to DD5.1. Same thing applies to your video file. If its VC1 you need to convert it to MPG2 or H.264. Otherwise pyTiVo will take YEARS to transfer your movie to your TiVo. I left Quantam of Sollace in VC1 format, did convert the audio to DD5.1 but pyTiVo took *36 hours *to transfer it to my TiVo! Once I converted the video to h.264 (Which took 28 hours on my computer) pyTiVo transfered it to my TiVo in only 2 hours.

*Eac3To* does a great job of converting the audio sound tracks.

I haven't found any one Video program free or otherwise that I really like to use to convert the Video. There are lots of issues with this phaze.

Suffice it to say.. currently ripping & playing blu-rays (at least for me) is still a *MAJOR* pain in the A**. It will get easier as time goes on. There just *ISN'T* a good variety of software out there *YET* that can handle blu-rays. It took about 3 to 4 years for decent software to come out to easily handle DVD's. Give it another year and I am sure Blu-rays will be just as easy again.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

larrs said:


> Just an FYI, I do take my Vudu box in the car and on vacation all of the time. All downloaded content is available to watch. The box is small enough that it is very portable.


Good point. One could do that. Many vehicles now do have Analog connection to allow you to plug in Video Cameras & Game consoles. I have seen quite a few people with an Xbox in the back of their vehicles for the kids to play.

Then again Vudu is still a rare exception in the world of DL/streaming video as well. Wouldn't be to bad for family vacations.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

gweempose said:


> Why do you have to rip the discs in order to accomplish this, when Netflix allows you to keep them as long as you want? I believe I had "The Sum of All Fears" out for more than a year.
> 
> If history has taught us anything, it's that convenience usually trumps quality when it comes to the average consumer. It's sad, but true. That's why SACD and DVD-Audio failed, while iPods became one of the best selling CE devices in history. Heck, even CDs sound better than a majority of the music that people are downloading these days.
> 
> I do agree that the 24-hour rental period for watching downloaded movies is a joke. IMHO, it should be a minimum of 48 hours. I really wish they would let you watch the entire movie at least once, regardless of how much time has passed. It hardly seems fair that you pay 5-6 bucks to watch a film, and only end up watching half of it. The problem is that the content providers are still stuck on the old video tape rental model. That model may have made sense back in the days where a video rental store only had a finite number of a given title on hand, but it seems absurd when you are talking about a digital download.


Absolutely true. The average consumer is about getting the best quality for the lowest price and easies convience as well. One of the reasons VHS beat out Betamax. Not for sure about the Blu-ray/HD-DVD war though. Even so... those 2 items *DO* still play a role for those who do want better quality. They aren't the biggest reasons why. But they still play a part to some point.

I agree with you as well on the rental/puchase model as well. "Pay as you go" rentals are good for people who only rent a few movies a movies. I did a financial price chart once. But if you average below 5 movies a month, with some months even less movies. Then your best bet is "Pay as you go". This applies to if you do VOD, PPV, DL/Streamed, or even picking up a movie at your local video store.

However... if your like alot of OTHER families that rent 10 or more a month (My family rents 30-40 _discs_ per month) Then subscription based services are the *LEAST* expensive way to go. DL/Streaming services would cost me an arm & leg at 40 movies/shows per month! Currently I pay $45 a month for 30-40 discs.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I was in that camp for a while as well myself, the issue I saw being that I turn more movies around that ups the costs to netflix- but got really tired of waiting for DVDs from Netflix - I currently have 10 movies at the top of my queue in Long wait or very long wait. I certainly wish the folks with those movies did not leave them sitting on top of the DVD player for the next 3 or so weeks.


EXACTLY! I have a nice que of 30-40 movies/show on my NAS ready to watch. (My family rents about 30-40 _discs_ worth of content per month from Netflix). I return mine the same day I get them so SOMEONE else can enjoy the movie. Doing it this way also lowers my cost per disc per month as well. And the que waits in Netflix for some movies is HORRIBLE! There is one movie I have been waitinf or 6 months on in blu-ray! Cause they don't have enough copies & I am sure they are sitting on someones Blu-ray player NOT being watched!



ZeoTiVo said:


> So now I rip the DVDs* (not an HD fanatic _yet_) and send them back within a couple of days. My family is not big on extras or re-watching a movie so no real problem there and the few DVDs that fall into that category (like LOTR for me) I buy outright.
> 
> This way I do have a list of "DVDs" from Netflix to watch that is easy to access. I look forward to the day Netflix can offer more with the instant watch streaming app on TiVo (that is watch whenever I want and take 3 weeks to fully watch if that is how my time works out) and will gladly stop the manual in between process of ripping DVDs to my hard drive..


I don't think what we are doing is unethical. We have allready paid our "SUBSCRIPTION" price each month. We pay that if we get 40 discs per month or only 1.

Here is another way at looking at how I rip DVD's to my NAS. Consider my Ripping/NAS as a *BUFFER*! It allows me to *BUFFER *the ups & downs of having to WAIT for a movie to arrive. Allowing my family to *ALWAYS* have serveral movies to watch anytime we want to watch them, while we are waiting for the movies to get back to netflix and for them to send us out the next batch. Like I said... we *RENT 30-40 DISCS *per month, yet watch that many as well per month. The NAS & Ripping are just a form of a *BUFFER*.

The only free program I use on DVD's sometimes is DVDFab. For the most part all the software I use to rip DVD's (Not Blu-ray) are commercial programs. Free sometimes is great. But I enjoy the paid versions much more. I use AnyDVD that runs in the background & removes the DRM/Region coding etc on the fly. Then I use Roxio Easy Media Creator or Corel's VideoStudio Pro X2 to pull the video off the disc & write it as a true MPG2 file. Both programs maintain the DD5.1 audio track, They both allow editing, & VideoStudio even allows me to show the CC/ST track on the foreign movies/shows that my family likes to watch.

TGC


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Tex,



> I don't think what we are doing is unethical. We have allready paid our "SUBSCRIPTION" price each month. We pay that if we get 40 discs per month or only 1.


I am afraid you and I couldn't disagree more. Netflix pricing models are clearly based on the time it takes to watch rentals. The fact that you're unhappy with their inventory suggests you should look for another service rather than to circumvent it by illegal/unethical means. It isn't any different than subscribing to personal/residential internet service and running a bunch high traffic servers on that network, or buying an unlimited residential use long distance plan and running a telemarketing firm with it.

Plus your comment:



> I only Rip Blu-rays I actually want to keep!


pretty much discounts the whole "buffer" concept you would have us believe.

This behavior is what eventually puts limits on "unlimited" plans, and why Hollywood has (and will continue to) screw with fair use for the majority of folks that only want to play within the rules.

So is everyone here ok with this!? If so, I guess I am just way out of touch with the realities of our society and Hollywood's paranoia with hi-def content is justified. And if that's the case, be prepared to have a lot more to complain about in the future.


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## JeffKusnitz (Apr 9, 2008)

solutionsetc said:


> So is everyone here ok with this!? If so, I guess I am just way out of touch with the realities of our society and Hollywood's paranoia with hi-def content is justified. And if that's the case, be prepared to have a lot more to complain about in the future.


Nope, I agree with you completely. Thankfully NetFlix makes some money off of people like me who get one movie at a time and actually watch it before returning it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JeffKusnitz said:


> Nope, I agree with you completely. Thankfully NetFlix makes some money off of people like me who get one movie at a time and actually watch it before returning it.


just please don't have it sit there for 3 weeks while the rest of us wait for a copy  It may well be one of the ones I have sitting in queue with long wait


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> just please don't have it sit there for 3 weeks while the rest of us wait for a copy  It may well be one of the ones I have sitting in queue with long wait


Sorry, I was one of those. When I started streaming Netflix more often, we had one disc for about 2 months and another for - well a bit longer...

We getting better.


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

solutionsetc said:


> So is everyone here ok with this!?


No, I agree with you. "Three at a time" means just that. If you are watching three each day then sending them back, that's cool with me. But he is getting much more than he could really watch with the three-at-a-time plan. People that do this are also the first to complain when the prices go up of they have to wait for some movies that are in their queues.

Now, if he is ripping them and only keeping 3 on his hard drive at a time... sure that's cool.

BOb


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

pilotbob said:


> Now, if he is ripping them and only keeping 3 on his hard drive at a time... sure that's cool.
> 
> BOb


If you are ripping that many movies, when do you actually have time to watch them?


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## Stephen Tu (May 10, 1999)

> And the que waits in Netflix for some movies is HORRIBLE! There is one movie I have been waitinf or 6 months on in blu-ray! Cause they don't have enough copies & I am sure they are sitting on someones Blu-ray player NOT being watched!


Your queue waits are probably because of your disc-returning habits, not because they don't have enough copies. It's well known that Netflix prioritizes giving out high-demand discs to their customers who rent fewer discs, who are more profitable for them than you are. They figure you are getting enough discs for your dollar that you won't quit if you aren't geting exactly the titles you want, and even if you do quit they probably weren't making that much money off you per month to begin with. (maybe they even lose money?)

You are getting a good dollar/disc rate because you are being subsidized by less frequent renters, but in return they are getting the movies they want more readily.

If you went to the max 8 disc plan and stopped the rip&return, presumably after some time you'd get back to a better priority level.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

We have a winner!

Best post of thread Stephen. Didn't know that but it makes a lot of sense.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Copying any of the DVDs or BDs is still illegal. I could copy them to the 20TB of storage I have available on my network but I don't . I either purchase the disc, or rent the disc, or digital download.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> here's the official release
> http://tivo.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=373
> 
> there's a few threads here and google gets you several thousand hits too.
> ...


Thanks. The more choices for digital download the better. Especially since I just turned in my FIOS STB so I don't have that option anymore for VOD.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

pilotbob said:


> No, I agree with you. "Three at a time" means just that. If you are watching three each day then sending them back, that's cool with me. But he is getting much more than he could really watch with the three-at-a-time plan. People that do this are also the first to complain when the prices go up of they have to wait for some movies that are in their queues.
> 
> Now, if he is ripping them and only keeping 3 on his hard drive at a time... sure that's cool.
> 
> BOb


Actually I *WAS* on the 8 at a time plan. Now because I have caught up to having a small que (Less then 35 in my que on average per any given month) I have droped down to 4 at a time per month. On this plan I am averaging about 25 to 30 *DISCS* per month. (We don't only get movies, we get TV shows too.)

I buffer about 1 months worth of movies on my NAS (About 25 to 30). Since we *PAY BY THE MONTH*. Thus we run about a month BEHIND the movies coming in.

This is a *BENEFIT* to *OTHER* Netflix users. Why? because our mail comes at 9am each morning. Mail goes out at 5pm. We rip the movies we get that day, & put them *BACK* in the mail the *SAME DAY*. Thus the *WAIT* time for others to receive the copy of discs is *REDUCED!*

Or in otherwords... those who are waiting "Forever" for a copy of a certain movie isn't because of me!

Like I said... I "BUFFER" about 1 months worth of *discs* at one time. I get about 25-30 discs per month. My *FAMILY* (5 in my family household) watches about 25 to 30 discs per month.

Some might not beleive we watch that many. But its really not many at all. Thats only on average about 5 to 6 discs per month per person. At 2 discs per person per weekend thats 8 discs per person. Not everyone watches what everyone else watches either.

No one in our family goes *OUT *to watch a movie in a theater anymore. (Why would when I have my own true home theater). There are RARE exceptions. Being we love Star Trek. *We DID go see Star Trek at the IMAX. BTW it was AWSOME at the IMAX!*

Some may think this is unethical. I don't. Why? because I don't keep the movies. I don't make copies of the movies to sell. Once I have watched them, they are deleted. I don't "Rip" more discs than my family can watch in a month. *If* we *PAID* for the subscription plans on a weekly basis. Then I wouldn't rip more discs than I can watch in a week. We pay by the month. So I rip what what my family can watch in a month. No more no less. If we only got 10 movies in a month, than thats all I would rip. We DON'T get more movies than we can watch.

Simple as that.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

daveak said:


> If you are ripping that many movies, when do you actually have time to watch them?


Doesn't take any time to rip a movie. Second in a FAMILY situation Im not always the one watching every movie I rip. In fact MOST of the discs I rip are watched by the REST of the household.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> Copying any of the DVDs or BDs is still illegal. I could copy them to the 20TB of storage I have available on my network but I don't . I either purchase the disc, or rent the disc, or digital download.


Having something that is against the law or not doesn't make it ethical or not.

There are many laws that in truth are unethical. There are also lots of things that are unethical that aren't again'st the law either.

The debate over *"Fair Use"* with media (music & video) is a debate as heated as the debate is over abortion, or the death penalty. There will *ALWAYS* be people who are on one side or the other and beleive with 100% certainty that their side is the MOST ETHICAL side.

TGC


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## Stephen Tu (May 10, 1999)

> This is a BENEFIT to OTHER Netflix users. Why? because our mail comes at 9am each morning. Mail goes out at 5pm. We rip the movies we get that day, & put them BACK in the mail the SAME DAY. Thus the WAIT time for others to receive the copy of discs is REDUCED!


This logic doesn't really work. If you think about it, it really makes no difference, because at any one time you have 4 discs allocated to you. It's not like you get all your rentals at the beginning of the month and then aren't holding on to anything at the end of the month, at any time you always have 4 discs off the shelves of the library. On average it makes no difference in availability of a title, because this is not a situation where there is only 1 copy of a title and everybody's waiting for you to finish it, when there are many dozens of copies of a title in circulation as long as most people aren't sitting on it forever it doesn't matter.

The only effect is that you get many more discs than you would if you actually had to wait until you watched the film to return it. Driving up the mailing costs for Netflix to the point where you aren't profitable to them. If everyone used your strategy prices would have to go way up. Without profit margin, Netflix can't afford to buy as many copies of movies, availability goes down, and causes harm to the holder of the copyright. So what you are doing is unethical in my mind. I don't feel that this is "fair use". If you actually owned the DVD, and ripped it for convenience purposes (backup/video server/portable media player), although technically illegal I wouldn't have a problem with it. Or if you ripped and held onto the rental disc, delete as soon as you returned it. But the right to watch the copy in my mind disappears once you return the disc.

Most large families of movie watchers would get the 8-at a time and divide the queue up into separate profiles, e.g. give each person a 2 disc queue or the like. You are in effect getting an 8 disc sub for the price of a 4 disc sub. I think it is similar to cheating at a buffet, two people eating off one person's "all you can eat".


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stephen Tu said:


> This logic doesn't really work. If you think about it, it really makes no difference, because at any one time you have 4 discs allocated to you. It's not like you get all your rentals at the beginning of the month and then aren't holding on to anything at the end of the month, at any time you always have 4 discs off the shelves of the library. On average it makes no difference in availability of a title, because this is not a situation where there is only 1 copy of a title and everybody's waiting for you to finish it, when there are many dozens of copies of a title in circulation as long as most people aren't sitting on it forever it doesn't matter.


 except that people are not randomly getting discs off the shelf. Netflix indeed throttles people who go through too many movies in a month. Netflix also send the new movies out to people who do not turnover many movies each month. So they very effectively put the movies most everyone will want in the hands of the people that are known to hold onto a movie for a few weeks. So it is a tradeoff - I rip my movies to my PC but I also tend to hold onto the movie for 2 days so I avoid some of the throttling Netflix does. If everyone held each movie for only 2 days then no one would be waiting long for any movie. Don't even get me started on the kids movies that ship to me with such a mess of greasy fingerprints and scratches that I have to take 15 minutes to clean it just so the rip software can read it. 
A secondary reason I rip is to avoid the being engrossed in a movie and suddenly DVD playback hangs up and I have to stop and try again to clean the darn disc.



> The only effect is that you get many more discs than you would if you actually had to wait until you watched the film to return it. Driving up the mailing costs for Netflix to the point where you aren't profitable to them. If everyone used your strategy prices would have to go way up. Without profit margin, Netflix can't afford to buy as many copies of movies, availability goes down, and causes harm to the holder of the copyright.


Or Netflix could work toward a streaming availability of most movies and avoid the whole mail thing anyway. I made the very same argument at first that you made above. I wont discount any of it. However the pain of getting the new movies is due to how rapidly Netflix has added new subscribers far more than any other factor. A problem I am sure they like having.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> No one in our family goes *OUT *to watch a movie in a theater anymore. (Why would when I have my own true home theater). There are RARE exceptions. Being we love Star Trek. *We DID go see Star Trek at the IMAX. BTW it was AWSOME at the IMAX!*
> 
> TGC


It would be hard for a home theater to compare to the IMAX theater. We have a couple near me from AMC. IF a movie is available to see in IMAX, that is the only place I will see it now. I won't even consider seeing it in a regular theater anymore. The IMAX experience is unparalleled. It's made me look forward to seeing movies in the theater again.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> except that people are not randomly getting discs off the shelf. Netflix indeed throttles people who go through too many movies in a month. Netflix also send the new movies out to people who do not turnover many movies each month. So they very effectively put the movies most everyone will want in the hands of the people that are known to hold onto a movie for a few weeks. So it is a tradeoff - I rip my movies to my PC but I also tend to hold onto the movie for 2 days so I avoid some of the throttling Netflix does. If everyone held each movie for only 2 days then no one would be waiting long for any movie. Don't even get me started on the kids movies that ship to me with such a mess of greasy fingerprints and scratches that I have to take 15 minutes to clean it just so the rip software can read it.
> A secondary reason I rip is to avoid the being engrossed in a movie and suddenly DVD playback hangs up and I have to stop and try again to clean the darn disc.
> 
> Or Netflix could work toward a streaming availability of most movies and avoid the whole mail thing anyway. I made the very same argument at first that you made above. I wont discount any of it. However the pain of getting the new movies is due to how rapidly Netflix has added new subscribers far more than any other factor. A problem I am sure they like having.


What Netflix is doing *ISN'T* technically "Throttling" anymore. What I mean by that is... They send out discs as quickly as they can. What they ARE doing now for those that hold on to discs or send them back quickly is what some are calling *PRIORITY Queing*... that is what it's being called as you describe it.

"Priority Queing" has not been an issue for our family. It is something I am more than happy to deal with because of the number of movies my family watches each month. Since we no longer go to movie theaters to watch movies, (Except on RARE occasions like Star Trek at the IMAX) we have allready had to wait a few months to see the movie in the first place. Having to wait an additional month or two sometimes even three, isn't a big deal to us.

TGC

P.S. I would* LOVE *to see video streaming come to full maturity! Once it can offer true 1080p 30-50mbps quality video with DTS-HD or DD-HD and CLOSED CAPTIONING, with EXTRAS as an option. I will be eager to jump on board!

Or in other words... when streaming become as as good a quality as Blu-ray. Then I am there!


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> It would be hard for a home theater to compare to the IMAX theater. We have a couple near me from AMC. IF a movie is available to see in IMAX, that is the only place I will see it now. I won't even consider seeing it in a regular theater anymore. The IMAX experience is unparalleled. It's made me look forward to seeing movies in the theater again.


Exactly... I couldn't agree with you more. My home theater experiance is MUCH better than any normal movie theater experiance. *Including* the _Digital DLP _theaters.

Absolutely IMAX is an experiance that as of yet, No home theater system is capable of even coming close to matching.

And that my friend is the *EXACT* reason why I was willing to shell at $16 / head to go to the IMAX to see STAR TREK. It was a $200 night out on the town for my family, but worth every penny! 

But... as much as I love the IMAX... Certain films still won't get my viewership at even the IMAX.

TGC


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

> Or Netflix could work toward a streaming availability of most movies and avoid the whole mail thing anyway


I think the upcoming Blockbuster/TiVo arrangement is said to have more titles (at least new releases) coming.



> I would LOVE to see video streaming come to full maturity!


That opens up a whole 'nother can of worms. I hope to not soon see all the neighbors on our network initiating 25+ GB downloads every time they want to watch a movie... at least not until they can run sequestered fiber to my door.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Exactly... I couldn't agree with you more. My home theater experiance is MUCH better than any normal movie theater experiance. *Including* the _Digital DLP _theaters.
> ...TGC


please- like you can accuratey recreate the sticky floors, popcorn strewn about, and obnoxious people talking throughout the moview at home?!?!?!? 

and what about the nasty bathrooms for after the movie??? cant get that at home can ya?


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

MichaelK said:


> please- like you can accuratey recreate the sticky floors, popcorn strewn about, and obnoxious people talking throughout the moview at home?!?!?!?
> 
> and what about the nasty bathrooms for after the movie??? cant get that at home can ya?


you haven't been to my house have you. It is all that and more! 

BOb


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Exactly... I couldn't agree with you more. My home theater experiance is MUCH better than any normal movie theater experiance. *Including* the _Digital DLP _theaters.
> 
> Absolutely IMAX is an experiance that as of yet, No home theater system is capable of even coming close to matching.
> 
> ...


The IMAX theaters use digital DLP now. It's much better than when they used film.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

pilotbob said:


> you haven't been to my house have you. It is all that and more!
> 
> BOb


ROFL


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> please- like you can accuratey recreate the sticky floors, popcorn strewn about, and obnoxious people talking throughout the moview at home?!?!?!?
> 
> and what about the nasty bathrooms for after the movie??? cant get that at home can ya?


Ummmmm You haven't seen my kids & their friends... They are teenagers! 

TGC


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## cleverdevil (Nov 12, 2007)

VUDU is now available on some LG TVs, and they have announced the same for Mitsubishi TVs in the near future. In both cases, it supports 1080p, and VUDU's HDX format, which offers the highest quality HD downloads out there. Of course, its no Blu-Ray, but its pretty close on the video front (the audio *seriously* lags, of course, since there is no uncompressed HD audio).

I for one would absolutely love to see VUDU come to TiVo, with HDX included. I watch shows and movies on Netflix streaming, but find the quality of both the video and the audio to be absolutely laughable. Amazon's HD downloads have much better video and audio than Netflix's HD offerings, but its still pretty soft compared to my Blu-Ray player. I watch 90&#37; of my movies on Blu-Ray since the experience is much much better, but I would probably spend a decent amount of money on VUDU HDX movies for the convenience factor, since its the only thing out there with good enough quality to pay for.

I believe that TiVo has all of the necessary onboard hardware to support this, and the software clearly supports both streaming (Netflix/YouTube) and downloads (Amazon). What's the hold up here? Seems like a no-brainer!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Most BD titles use compressed audio. Very few offer PCM audio now.


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## cleverdevil (Nov 12, 2007)

Every BD in my collection offers HD audio, and I know of few new releases that don't come with HD audio. Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio are both lossless audio formats.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

cleverdevil said:


> Every BD in my collection offers HD audio, and I know of few new releases that don't come with HD audio. Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio are both lossless audio formats.


They use lossless compression.(the legacy codecs use lossy compression) They are still compressed audio streams. Only the PCM tracks are uncompressed.


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## cleverdevil (Nov 12, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> They use lossless compression.(the legacy codecs use lossy compression) They are still compressed audio streams. Only the PCM tracks are uncompressed.


Duh, I didn't even go back and read my original post. *headsmack* I actually knew this, but for some reason wrote "uncompressed" rather than "lossless".

Either way, my point still stands about digital downloads lagging behind Blu-Ray in terms of audio quality due to the lack of lossless HD audio.

Thanks for the clarification!


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## anthonymoody (Apr 29, 2008)

A step in the right direction: Vudu was just announced as added to an LG blu ray player, the 390. Hurry up and sign the deal Tivo!!


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## JimPa (Oct 25, 2006)

Any news on Vudu????


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