# Digital Converter Box Coupon Site



## magnus

Happy New Year Everyone!!!

The web site to get coupons for Digital Converter Boxes is now accepting applications for coupons.

For those of you wondering how your Series 2 (or Series 1) Tivo is going to be able to receive OTA after February 17, 2009.... this is the most likely answer.

The next step will be for Tivo to provide support for these types of boxes.

https://www.dtv2009.gov/


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## Seattle

Thanks for the link! For some reason it did not work with Safari so I had to use IE and then it worked.


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## renkablue

magnus said:


> Happy New Year Everyone!!!
> 
> The web site to get coupons for Digital Converter Boxes is now accepting applications for coupons.
> 
> For those of you wondering how your Series 2 (or Series 1) Tivo is going to be able to receive OTA after February 17, 2009.... this is the most likely answer.
> 
> The next step will be for Tivo to provide support for these types of boxes.
> 
> https://www.dtv2009.gov/


I had trouble on the website "sorry for the inconvenience" - So I am not registered yet.


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## wmcbrine

My understanding is that the coupons will expire after a few months (three?), and you won't be able to get replacements. So, I would avoid ordering them until eligible receivers are being sold.


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## riffjim4069

renkablue said:


> I had trouble on the website "sorry for the inconvenience" - So I am not registered yet.


Same problem here...tried it from both work and home.


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## jrm01

The coupons do expire after 3 months, and the approved boxes is a short list right now. I'd suggest waiting until Fall 2008 to make a decision. Who knows, maybe Tivo can convince the gov that the Tivo HD is a digital converter box.


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## Mikeguy

An interesting quandry, then, as there is, I understand, a limited "inventory" of coupons:

There are 22.25 million coupons available to all U.S. households. Once those coupons have been used, there are an additional 11.25 million coupons available only to households that solely receive their TV broadcasts over-the-air using an antenna. Households with TVs connected to cable, satellite or other pay TV service are not eligible for this second batch of coupons. Consumers can apply for coupons until March 31, 2009, or until the funds are exhausted.


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## vman41

jrm01 said:


> The coupons do expire after 3 months, and the approved boxes is a short list right now. I'd suggest waiting until Fall 2008 to make a decision. Who knows, maybe Tivo can convince the gov that the Tivo HD is a digital converter box.


Won't happen. Any box that outputs anything besides RF, composite, or S-video is not eligible for the coupon program. It's only to assist people watching TVs on old analog sets.


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## magnus

A lot of the questions like these are answered at the link below.

_Consumers who apply at the beginning or 2008 will receive their coupons when TV converter boxes are expected to be available in retail stores, probably in late February or early March._

https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx



wmcbrine said:


> My understanding is that the coupons will expire after a few months (three?), and you won't be able to get replacements. So, I would avoid ordering them until eligible receivers are being sold.


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## magnus

It looks like it has something to do with the site... more than the browser itself. I tried applying for my sister on Safari, Firefox, and Camino... none of which worked. However, Firefox had worked at 2AM for me to apply for my coupons.



Seattle said:


> Thanks for the link! For some reason it did not work with Safari so I had to use IE and then it worked.


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## Whittaker

Well, things are looking up.

The MSRP on some of these units is only $69.99, so minus the coupon it would be $30, and nobody will be selling at MSRP, so likely only $20.

Digital STREAM D2A1D10 
Digital STREAM D2A1D20 
Zenith DTT900 
Magnavox TB100MW9 
Philco TB150HH9 
MicroGEM MG2000 
Sansonic FT300RT 
MaxMedia MMDTVB03 
Apex DT1001 
ECHOSTAR TR-40 
AMTC AT-2016

Now if we can only get TiVo to cooperate so that the proper program info lines up.


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## magnus

I added a poll to this thread. Once more information is available.... I'm curious to know which box others think is the best value/has best features.



Whittaker said:


> Well, things are looking up.
> 
> The MSRP on some of these units is only $69.99, so minus the coupon it would be $30, and nobody will be selling at MSRP, so likely only $20.
> 
> Digital STREAM D2A1D10
> Digital STREAM D2A1D20
> Zenith DTT900
> Magnavox TB100MW9
> Philco TB150HH9
> MicroGEM MG2000
> Sansonic FT300RT
> MaxMedia MMDTVB03
> Apex DT1001
> ECHOSTAR TR-40
> AMTC AT-2016
> 
> Now if we can only get TiVo to cooperate so that the proper program info lines up.


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## gastrof

Just a thought here, from the mouth of one of the engineers at a local TV station-

Just because a station is using a certain channel to broadcast their digital channel NOW, that doesn't mean they'll continue using that channel once things change over.

For example, say in your area your NBC affiliate is channel 5, and their digital broadcast is on channel 22. On a digital tuner it shows up as channel 5, because that's their "brand name" (his words, not mine). It's actually channel 22, but they've stamped it so people will identify it with the long-known analog channel.

Come the changeover, there's no rule that says they have to give up the ANALOG channel, however, and stick to the existing digital one.

They could very well switch their digital broadcast over to channel 5, and give up channel 22.

This might make a lot of sense, since they'd still be calling themself "channel 5". It'd be a "throwback" situation if they kept using that "brand name", but now had NOTHING to do with the actual channel 5, and if a channel has been on the air for a very long time, I can't see them suddenly starting to call themselves "channel 22".

Set top boxes that are all set up to work on the current digital broadcasts might every well have to go thru setup all over again, antenna positions might have to be figured out all over again, etc. 

From the mouth of an engineer at one of our local stations.


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## scandia101

> When more information is available.... which box would you choose?


I'll be waiting for more information before I choose.


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## Whittaker

Looks like at least some of the units (if not all) will be utilizing LG's new 6th generation chip.


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## mattack

gastrof said:


> Just because a station is using a certain channel to broadcast their digital channel NOW, that doesn't mean they'll continue using that channel once things change over.
> 
> For example, say in your area your NBC affiliate is channel 5, and their digital broadcast is on channel 22. On a digital tuner it shows up as channel 5, because that's their "brand name" (his words, not mine). It's actually channel 22, but they've stamped it so people will identify it with the long-known analog channel.
> 
> Come the changeover, there's no rule that says they have to give up the ANALOG channel, however, and stick to the existing digital one.
> 
> They could very well switch their digital broadcast over to channel 5, and give up channel 22.


I think you are partially right -- I do believe that the current digital channels are temporary assignments.

But I don't think that the station can switch their digital channel back to the spectrum covered by the existing channel 5... because that's the main thrust of this changeover -- to get stations off of the old spectrum so that it can be resold for other uses, and the stations using new digital channels more efficiently.


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## bicker

The portion of the spectrum being resold is UHF channel 56 and higher.


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## ZeoTiVo

I will go with a tiVo HD and a digital OTA antenna and just skip the whole mess.


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## magnus

For those of us with S2 Lifetime Tivos.... that's not an option.



ZeoTiVo said:


> I will go with a tiVo HD and a digital OTA antenna and just skip the whole mess.


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## steve614

ZeoTiVo said:


> I will go with a tiVo HD and a digital OTA antenna and just skip the whole mess.


That's just what I did. 

However, I'd still like to be able to use my Lifetimed S2 until it dies completely.


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## Tobashadow

I cant find enough info on the box's to decide yet. Hopefully more info will come out soon.

Unless your a Dishnet customer you can just about rule out the EchoStar TR-40.


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## cowboys2002

steve614 said:


> That's just what I did.
> 
> However, I'd still like to be able to use my Lifetimed S2 until it dies completely.


If you are only using cable or satellite, do you even need a Digital to Analog converter box? NOOOOOO.

You only need the box if you have an older analog tv using OTA.

My question is: "How many people with HD tv(s) or using satellite (DTV or Dish) or cable (Series 3 or Tivo HD w/ cable cards, or basic cable) who will get coupons "just because".


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## jsmeeker

magnus said:


> For those of us with S2 Lifetime Tivos.... that's not an option.


sure it is..

I have a Series 1 TiVo with lifetime, and I won't be picking up a box.

I'll either still have the Series 1, but will still be able to record since I have cable, or I will get a new TiVo (series 3, TiVo HD, some other box??) and upgrade to digital cable.

You can do the same.


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## magnus

I only use OTA... so it's not an option for me.

If you have cable then you don't need one of these boxes.



jsmeeker said:


> sure it is..
> 
> I have a Series 1 TiVo with lifetime, and I won't be picking up a box.
> 
> I'll either still have the Series 1, but will still be able to record since I have cable, or I will get a new TiVo (series 3, TiVo HD, some other box??) and upgrade to digital cable.
> 
> You can do the same.


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## wmcbrine

ZeoTiVo said:


> I will go with a tiVo HD and a digital OTA antenna and just skip the whole mess.


Don't let a salesman tell you that you need a special (i.e., more expensive) antenna. Any antenna intended for NTSC will work just as well with ATSC. Rabbit ears on up.

I'm not saying you shouldn't get a good (i.e., expensive) antenna; I'm just saying that there's no such thing as a "digital OTA antenna", or an "HDTV antenna". Salesmen will try to tell you otherwise. They are lying.


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## ZeoTiVo

wmcbrine said:


> Don't let a salesman tell you that you need a special (i.e., more expensive) antenna. Any antenna intended for NTSC will work just as well with ATSC. Rabbit ears on up.
> 
> I'm not saying you shouldn't get a good (i.e., expensive) antenna; I'm just saying that there's no such thing as a "digital OTA antenna", or an "HDTV antenna". Salesmen will try to tell you otherwise. They are lying.


very true - my "digital" OTA antenna was a 30$ one off the shelf at circuit City. Its only problem is being directional. I am consdiering an attic mounted omni directional rig to get more stations though I have not researched the models yet.

But yes I used "digital" as just a way to distinguish from analog only.


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## rickyble

The stations all have to decide which one of the frequencies that they will end up using very soon, if they have not already done so. The ones here already have decided and posted those on a website. The carrier they use has a flag at the beginning, I think its at the beginning at least its embedded somewhere in the stream, that lets the receivers see its "name" as the old channel number no matter which frequency they end up using. I catch all my local OTAs and they have the same channel signature as the ones off Dtv. The tuners or receivers handle the translation for u. I have an old Sony dvr/dvd/pvr and it uses the free OTA guide so I will need one for it in the future. BTW if you are looking for a excellent OTA antenna, Id recommend the Channel Master 4228 with a rotor. It is excellent.


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## fallingwater

magnus said:


> The next step will be for Tivo to provide support for these types of boxes.
> https://www.dtv2009.gov/


Just as a matter of common decency and customer goodwill.


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## bicker

You mean just like they implemented a comprehensive fix for the DST problem on S1s?


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## BobCamp1

Mikeguy said:


> An interesting quandry, then, as there is, I understand, a limited "inventory" of coupons:
> 
> There are 22.25 million coupons available to all U.S. households. Once those coupons have been used, there are an additional 11.25 million coupons available only to households that solely receive their TV broadcasts over-the-air using an antenna. Households with TVs connected to cable, satellite or other pay TV service are not eligible for this second batch of coupons. Consumers can apply for coupons until March 31, 2009, or until the funds are exhausted.


Almost one million coupons have already been requested. At this rate, the coupons will almost be gone by the end of this month, though the rate will probably drop before then as people (like us) who are already aware will have already ordered. Remember that over half of the people out there have no clue about the analog shutoff.

The coupons (which look more like gift cards) are only good for three months from the date they are mailed to you, but the government has agreed to delay mailing them until some converter boxes are actually available. (The same government that brought you Katrina, Iraq, etc., so buyer beware)

And no one I know has ordered just one coupon. Watch people either sell the coupon on eBay (illegal) or buy the converter box using the coupon, wait until the coupons are exhausted, and sell the box on eBay (legal and/or impossible to track).

There is also a 1-888-388-2009 number which you should call from your home phone (it uses caller ID) if the website doesn't work.

Without hunting down all these boxes, does anyone know which box is the best? I'm most interested in a tiny size (preferably mountable) followed by good reception. Remote control is optional.


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## BobCamp1

magnus said:


> The next step will be for Tivo to provide support for these types of boxes.


Maybe a similar program from Tivo? Maybe a $40 coupon towards the purchase of an HD or S3? If it came with a free lifetime transfer now that would be something, but I'm not holding my breath.

We pretty much know the S1s will be left to twist in the wind. The S2ST is the only other DVR that needs an update. What Tivo does depends on the number of S2STs in service, I guess. If there are a small number left, treat them like S1s. If a large number are left, perform the code update.


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## fallingwater

bicker said:


> You mean just like they implemented a comprehensive fix for the DST problem on S1s?


But wasn't the DST change something which unless corrected would be a problem for only 3 weeks, unlike making a TiVo useless forever.


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## fallingwater

BobCamp1 said:


> We pretty much know the S1s will be left to twist in the wind. The S2ST is the only other DVR that needs an update. What Tivo does depends on the number of S2STs in service, I guess. If there are a small number left, treat them like S1s. If a large number are left, perform the code update.


Aren't there more S2's by far than any other type of TiVo now in service?


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## bicker

fallingwater said:


> But wasn't the DST change something which unless corrected would be a problem for only 3 weeks, unlike making a TiVo useless forever.


I think it was three week twice a year, but the main point is that it would be a problem every year.


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## fallingwater

BobCamp1 said:


> Without hunting down all these boxes, does anyone know which box is the best? I'm most interested in a tiny size (preferably mountable) followed by good reception. Remote control is optional.


Isn't it way too soon for answers to that question?


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## fallingwater

bicker said:


> I think it was three week twice a year, but the main point is that it would be a problem every year.


OIC, every year!


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## BobCamp1

It's not exactly vaporware, but I'm just trying to answer the poll question. I don't know which box to vote for because I don't don't know anything about these boxes. Plus, I may be forced to order a coupon this month if I want to get one at all.


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## kegrant

I understand these digital to analog boxes are for OTA broadcasts only. How about this situation. . . I have Comcast cable with a Comcast box at my HDTV, but I have no boxes at my analog bedroom TV's. On 2/2009 Comcast is going to deliver digital only service. Once 2/2009 hits, how do I get those analog TV's to display the digital signal? Can I purchase a digital tuner box and connect the Comcast cable to the box and then from the box to the analog TV? I'd like to avoid having to rent the boxes from Comcast.

Thanks, Keith


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## bicker

kegrant said:


> On 2/2009 Comcast is going to deliver digital only service.


I doubt they've made that decision yet.



kegrant said:


> Once 2/2009 hits, how do I get those analog TV's to display the digital signal? Can I purchase a digital tuner box and connect the Comcast cable to the box and then from the box to the analog TV? I'd like to avoid having to rent the boxes from Comcast.


The boxes we're talking about in this thread, the ones that are eligible for the coupons, will not work with cable.


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## Luke M

kegrant said:


> On 2/2009 Comcast is going to deliver digital only service.


Do you know this (how?) or are you just assuming it?


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## magnus

Well, I'm not really expecting anyone to answer the poll just yet. I just thought as we find out more about the boxes... or if Tivo would produce a list of which ones they will support... then we could come up with an idea of which ones might be the best ones to get.

So, maybe as other's find relevant specs.. they could be posted here.



BobCamp1 said:


> It's not exactly vaporware, but I'm just trying to answer the poll question. I don't know which box to vote for because I don't don't know anything about these boxes. Plus, I may be forced to order a coupon this month if I want to get one at all.


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## wmcbrine

There's some info about these over on AVSForum.

I knew that component wasn't allowed, but I was dismayed to see that some of them don't even have s-video! On the plus side, they're smaller than I expected.


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## mattack

kegrant said:


> I understand these digital to analog boxes are for OTA broadcasts only. How about this situation. . . I have Comcast cable with a Comcast box at my HDTV, but I have no boxes at my analog bedroom TV's. On 2/2009 Comcast is going to deliver digital only service. Once 2/2009 hits, how do I get those analog TV's to display the digital signal?


I cut out your other question since it was answered.

The 2/2009 date ONLY affects broadcast TV. It does not affect cable.

However, the FCC has mandated that cable provide some sort of service for 2-3 years (I don't remember if it's 2011 or 2012) after the OTA analog cutoff date. However, we don't know exactly what that means. It *might* just mean that the cable companies provide a 'free' box for other TVs. I would hope it means they continue to provide analog stations for cable ready sets for those few years.


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## mattack

wmcbrine said:


> There's some info about these over on AVSForum.
> 
> I knew that component wasn't allowed, but I was dismayed to see that some of them don't even have s-video! On the plus side, they're smaller than I expected.


Do you have specific links?

I haven't done too much searching, but I *think* you might be referring to these:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=934600
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948767

Is there a generic thread covering all of them?


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## fallingwater

wmcbrine said:


> There's some info about these over on AVSForum.
> 
> I knew that component wasn't allowed, but I was dismayed to see that some of them don't even have s-video! On the plus side, they're smaller than I expected.


Here is more information than anybody except a manufacturer needs to know. It still doesn't cover what a given manufacturer may finally offer.

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_2e.htm


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## fallingwater

By all means, if anyone thinks they may possibly have a use for a standard definition OTA digital "converter", either by itself or as a way of providing a signal for an S2 or S1 TiVo, request a couple of coupons now while they're still available. There's nothing to lose!

Even if TiVo never develops IR control codes an older TiVo will still be able to record from one of these 'converters'. Just re-run Guided Setup for analog cable and satellite (or cable) STB. In most configurations manually tuning the 'converter' to an OTA program available from the EPG will be the only required extra step. In some configurations recordings will have to be manually programmed by time and channel. 

I currently use a variation of this procedure when recording DVD's from HDTiVo.


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## bicker

mattack said:


> The 2/2009 date ONLY affects broadcast TV. It does not affect cable.


Well, as alluded to earlier, it affects cable, but doesn't drive cable to do anything specific.



mattack said:


> However, the FCC has mandated that cable provide some sort of service for 2-3 years (I don't remember if it's 2011 or 2012) after the OTA analog cutoff date.


December 31, 2012.



mattack said:


> However, we don't know exactly what that means. It *might* just mean that the cable companies provide a 'free' box for other TVs.


The word "free" doesn't appear in the regulation. Neither does the word "affordable". Presumably, though, other parts of older regulations (specifically 47 CFR 79.923) would drive cable company to provide at least one "included" converter box, if they go the all-digital route.



mattack said:


> I would hope it means they continue to provide analog stations for cable ready sets for those few years.


That would be nice, but I'm going to bet against it. There is just too much to be gained from going all-digital, and doing so under the cover of the February 2009 date.


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## bicker

fallingwater said:


> By all means, if anyone thinks they may possibly have a use for a standard definition OTA digital "converter", either by itself or as a way of providing a signal for an S2 or S1 TiVo, request a couple of coupons now while they're still available. There's nothing to lose!


Yes there is. The coupons expire 90 days after issuance, and you cannot request replacements even if they expire before you use them.


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## vman41

bicker said:


> That would be nice, but I'm going to bet against it. There is just too much to be gained from going all-digital, and doing so under the cover of the February 2009 date.


We're 6 months into Comcast's analog reclamation experiment in Chicago. I don't expect them to be open about how many subscribers they've lost (which may be at an acceptable level). Have they set any transition dates for other markets?


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## Luke M

vman41 said:


> We're 6 months into Comcast's analog reclamation experiment in Chicago.


I'm curious, are the digital expanded basic channel encrypted? (And were the analog channels they replaced scrambled?)


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## bicker

vman41 said:


> We're 6 months into Comcast's analog reclamation experiment in Chicago. I don't expect them to be open about how many subscribers they've lost (which may be at an acceptable level).


I doubt that matters. Again, with the digital transition coming up, combined with the fact that all the other suppliers require converter boxes, they're going to be in a completely different situation.


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## fallingwater

bicker said:


> Yes there is. The coupons expire 90 days after issuance, and you cannot request replacements even if they expire before you use them.


Coupons are available now. Who knows whether they will be in 3 months?

The coupon program website states that coupons won't be sent until at least some converters are "expected to be" available. Maybe nothing will be gained but there's still nothing to lose.

https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx

*[+]Coupon Program: Getting a Coupon

5.When will I get my coupons?*
Consumers who apply at the beginning or 2008 will receive their coupons when TV converter boxes are expected to be available in retail stores, probably in late February or early March.

*13. How long are coupons active?* 
Coupons expire 90 days after they are mailed. Each coupon has an expiration date printed on it.


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## GoHokies!

gastrof said:


> Just a thought here, from the mouth of one of the engineers at a local TV station-
> 
> Just because a station is using a certain channel to broadcast their digital channel NOW, that doesn't mean they'll continue using that channel once things change over.
> 
> For example, say in your area your NBC affiliate is channel 5, and their digital broadcast is on channel 22. On a digital tuner it shows up as channel 5, because that's their "brand name" (his words, not mine). It's actually channel 22, but they've stamped it so people will identify it with the long-known analog channel.
> 
> Come the changeover, there's no rule that says they have to give up the ANALOG channel, however, and stick to the existing digital one.
> 
> They could very well switch their digital broadcast over to channel 5, and give up channel 22.
> 
> This might make a lot of sense, since they'd still be calling themself "channel 5". It'd be a "throwback" situation if they kept using that "brand name", but now had NOTHING to do with the actual channel 5, and if a channel has been on the air for a very long time, I can't see them suddenly starting to call themselves "channel 22".
> 
> Set top boxes that are all set up to work on the current digital broadcasts might every well have to go thru setup all over again, antenna positions might have to be figured out all over again, etc.
> 
> From the mouth of an engineer at one of our local stations.


There is a very long thread over at avs forum about this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=823166

Most of the post cutover assignments have been made and are locked in stone by the FCC, the time for stations to make these sorts of decisions is past.


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## classicsat

kegrant said:


> I understand these digital to analog boxes are for OTA broadcasts only. How about this situation. . . I have Comcast cable with a Comcast box at my HDTV, but I have no boxes at my analog bedroom TV's. On 2/2009 Comcast is going to deliver digital only service. Once 2/2009 hits, how do I get those analog TV's to display the digital signal? Can I purchase a digital tuner box and connect the Comcast cable to the box and then from the box to the analog TV? I'd like to avoid having to rent the boxes from Comcast.
> 
> Thanks, Keith


You need a cable box. Whether or not you have to rent one depends if standalone cablecard boxes are for sale or not, and if they are, buying a cablecard box and renting a cablecard is an option at the time.

Some OTA boxes can likely tune unencrypted QAM cable, so that might be an option.


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## jrm01

bicker said:


> The boxes we're talking about in this thread, the ones that are eligible for the coupons, will not work with cable.


Actually if they have a QAM tuner they do work with cable for in-the-clear-QAM channels. At least the current Samsung box does. It will be interesting to see if the new boxes throw in this tuner.


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## steve614

If I lie and say I only use antenna will they check?


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## magnus

You should not need to. The first batch is for all... it's not supposed to matter.



steve614 said:


> If I lie and say I only use antenna will they check?


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## bicker

fallingwater said:


> Maybe nothing will be gained but there's still nothing to lose.


Indeed, there is. Better devices may become available later. There is no way to know now whether coupons will run out before then. So, again, there is *something *to lose by ordering your coupons now.


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## classicsat

QAM tuning could be locked in firmware, or more accurately, the firmware is written to tune only OTA.


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## fallingwater

jrm01 said:


> Actually if they have a QAM tuner they do work with cable for in-the-clear-QAM channels. At least the current Samsung box does. It will be interesting to see if the new boxes throw in this tuner.


No Samsung here! QAM probably won't be available on coupon eligible boxes which are designed for standard-def OTA.

http://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm


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## fallingwater

bicker said:


> ...Better devices may become available later. There is no way to know now whether coupons will run out before then. So, again, there is *something *to lose by ordering your coupons now.


If a reader believes the aptly named *bicker*'s pitch, then obviously wait!

For around 70 bucks minus the coupon how much better will converters get?

https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx

*[+]Converter box option

[+]1. How much do I have to pay for a TV converter box?*
When TV converter boxes are available, retail stores will set the price. TV converter boxes are expected to cost between $50 and $70. The Federal Government permits each U.S. household up to two $40 coupons to help pay for the cost of the converter box. After applying the coupon, participating retailers will charge consumers the remaining balance of between $10 and $30.


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## bicker

Reliability will improve. Energy consumption will decrease.


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## vman41

fallingwater said:


> http://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm


The list seems to have grown to 15 brands, with DigitalStream adding a 3rd model.


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## cwoody222

I'm sick of people asking me (as their TV/tech go-to-guy) "Do I need to worry about the change? I think I do."

Why doesn't that federal site have a GIANT thing on the first past that screams "UNLESS YOU USE RABBIT EARS YOU HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT, GO AWAY!"


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## bicker

It is interesting ... I see now that our local news is presenting the daily countdown on the morning news.


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## fallingwater

bicker said:


> Reliability will improve. Energy consumption will decrease.


Converters are basically one shot products, not long term solutions to the standards change The elegible list now includes 15. Do you know that there will actually be additional eligible boxes that are better or are you just surmising and pulling the old chain?

IMHO, its 'better' to have 2 coupons in hand 3 months from now than none (although, depending on the number of requests received, it wouldn't be surprising if the number sent to homes acknowledging cable as an option is cut to 1.)

The coupon program is basically another gov't 'earmark'. Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to just offer a one time $80 tax credit for low income filers?

Worst case scenario, with or without coupons, is that a viewer may have to shell out around 70 bucks for a converter!


----------



## grampy

cowboys2002 said:


> If you are only using cable or satellite, do you even need a Digital to Analog converter box? NOOOOOO.
> 
> You only need the box if you have an older analog tv using OTA.
> 
> My question is: "How many people with HD tv(s) or using satellite (DTV or Dish) or cable (Series 3 or Tivo HD w/ cable cards, or basic cable) who will get coupons "just because".


I know of at least one


----------



## Luke M

fallingwater said:


> are you just surmising and pulling the old chain?


Everyone needs a hobby.


----------



## stahta01

Working on links to manufacturers.
http://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm

Tim S

Artec T3A http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Artec_T3A.html
AccessHD DTA1010D
AccessHD DTA1010U
AMTC AT-2016
Apex Digital DT1001 http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Apex_Digital_DT1001.html
"Broken Link" http://support.apexdigitalinc.com/dt1001.asp
CASTi CAX-01
COSHIP N9900T
http://www.coship.com/CoshipEn/Default.aspx?Type=1&PROID=758&CatalogID=6864&PCID=216
http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/COSHIP_N9900T.html
Digital STREAM D2A1D10 http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Digital_STREAM_D2A1D10.html
Digital STREAM D2A1D20
DigitalSTREAM DTX9900
Note Sure which model this is
http://www.dstreamtech.com/english/product/product_detail.asp?idx=29
ECHOSTAR TR-40 http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/EchoStar_TR-40.html
GE 22729 http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/GE_22729.html
GE 22730 http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/GE_22730.html
Goodmind DTA1000
Insignia NS-DXA1
Lasonic LTA-260
Lasonic LTR-260
Magnavox TB100MW9
MaxMedia MMDTVB03 http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/MaxMedia_MMDTVB03.html
MicroGEM MG2000 http://www.microgem.net/
http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/MicroGEM_MG2000.html
Philco TB150HH9
RCA DTA800 http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/RCA_DTA800.html
Sansonic FT300RT http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Sansonic_FT300DT.html
Sansonic FT300A http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Sansonic_FT300A.html
Sansonic http://www.sansonic.net/consumer/atsc_converter.asp
looks to be Falcon Digital http://falcondgt.com/
Tivax STB-T9 http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Tivax_STB-T9.html
http://designcellular.com/Wholesale.html
Venturer STB7766G
Zenith DTT900 http://www.zenith.com/dtv/dtt900.html
http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Zenith_DTT900_DTV.html

Comparison table
http://www.freelabs.com/~whitis/electronics/dtv_converters/

ezdigitaltv same topic
http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Converter_Box.html

retailer link that has some info
http://www.king-cart.com/18inch/product=Digital+to+Analog+Converter's/exact_match=exact

AVSForum Thread same topic
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948767


----------



## Luke M

stahta01 said:


> Working on links to manufacturers.
> http://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm


Thanks, very helpful. It seems that QAM support is not a disqualifying feature (as I had supposed), since some of these have it.

It's strange that many boxes omit S-video output. I would avoid those.


----------



## bicker

fallingwater said:


> are you just surmising...?


As is everyone else. Both sides have merit. That's the point.



fallingwater said:


> IMHO, its 'better' to have 2 coupons in hand 3 months from now than none (although, depending on the number of requests received, it wouldn't be surprising if the number sent to homes acknowledging cable as an option is cut to 1.)


I don't think they can change the program like that. Rather, I think what *could *happen is that more of the auction proceeds could be allocated for more coupons, later.

(Watch -- now someone will conveniently fail to see the word "could" and we'll have a whole 'nother set of inane messages.)


----------



## fallingwater

bicker said:


> Both sides have merit.
> 
> I think what *could *happen is that more of the auction proceeds could be allocated for more coupons, later.
> 
> (Watch...)


It pays to request coupons now. There's nothing whatsoever to lose. With the continually growing number of converters the biggest problem will be to learn the merits of each before choosing one or two.

I wonder what the spectrum auction will bring and how that compares with the coupon program cost and whether a gov't. subsidy for already cheap ATSC tuners makes any sense other than to get votes? (Why not beer coupons?)


----------



## vman41

fallingwater said:


> http://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm
> 
> Now 18!


There are 3 DigitalStream-branded models and 2 Philcos ==> 18 models, 15 brands.


----------



## fallingwater

True. Considering the required limitations of qualifying 'converters' it will be interesting to see what the differences are between models from the same manufacturer.

Isn't it also true that some of the converter models from different manufacturers are actually identical or close to it?


----------



## lessd

Does anybody know if any of these D to A boxes will have a serial input as some cable boxes do ??


----------



## MickeS

So do these boxes work as a cable box?

From https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx



DTV2009.gov said:


> _11. Will my VCR or DVD player still work once I plug my converter box into my TV?_
> The analog equipment you currently use will continue to work with (output to) your analog TV set just as before, but they will not be able to receive over-the-air programming without the TV converter box. Attach the converter to your VCR, TiVo, DVD-R, etc. instead of hooking it directly to your TV


So are they just full of it here, or what? I wouldn't be able to keep using my VCR at least, since it doesn't have any IR out for channel changing, if this box is like a cable box.

Or does it somehow convert the channels to analog RF signals and just pass that on to the VCR, so the VCR works like before?


----------



## Luke M

MickeS said:


> So are they just full of it here, or what? I wouldn't be able to keep using my VCR at least, since it doesn't have any IR out for channel changing, if this box is like a cable box.


Correct. The only way would be if the ATSC box had a timer feature.


----------



## steve614

/ obligatory

What's a VCR?


----------



## kreece05

Right now if I had to choose a DTV converter box, it would be the Zenith DTT900. Reason, it is the only box out there with complete information available including hookups and diagrams. Radio Shack has announced they will begin selling this box in late February. MSRP of $69.99.

Updated list of NTIA approved converter boxes http://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm

Another site with lots of information, an updated list and specifications http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Converter_Box.html


----------



## fallingwater

kreece05 said:


> http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Converter_Box.html


The Digital STREAM D2A1D10 specs. surprisingly indicate that it has QAM capabilities as well as ATSC!
http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Digital_STREAM_D2A1D10.html


----------



## gordonzo

talked to salesman at radio shack,who said they will be selling zenith converter boxes next month for 69.99.he also gave me a aplication for the rebate which is good for 90 days.I have a s1 lifetime box and am thinking about a voom reciever and possibly 1 of the boxes.wheather they will work with them after the switch will all depend on what tivo does with the program guide.hopefully the guide will still work and maybe(fingers crossed)they will develop ir codes for them boxes.


----------



## gordonzo

Digital STREAM D2A1D10 http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Digital_STREAM_D2A1D10.html

im surprised this one is approved as it has s-video output allso.


----------



## wmcbrine

gordonzo said:


> im surprised this one is approved as it has s-video output allso.


S-video is allowed. It's only the HD-capable outputs (component, HDMI, VGA) that are banned.

To me, the surprising thing is that they don't _all_ have s-video. I doubt it makes a lot of difference in the price, considering that I can get component output on a $20 DVD player. But perhaps there was some uncertainty about whether s-video would be allowed at the time these boxes were being developed.


----------



## stahta01

Currently, my one fixed requirement is S-Video Output.

Tim S

So, I am looking at these boxes. 
MaxMedia MMDTVB03
Digital STREAM D2A1D10


----------



## Luke M

EchoStar Introduces New Digital-to-Analog Converter Boxes
Monday January 7, 8:00 am ET 
Distributed Under EchoStar and Sling Media Brands

ENGLEWOOD, Colo., Jan. 7, 2008 (PRIME NEWSWIRE) -- EchoStar Holding Corporation (Nasdaq:SATS) today announced its plans to offer two new digital-to-analog converter boxes. The boxes will be distributed in anticipation of the Federal Communications Commission's requirement that all full-power broadcasters cease the transmission of their analog signal by Feb. 17, 2009.

EchoStar's TR-40 over-the-air, digital-to-analog converter allows analog TVs to receive digital over-the-air broadcasts and comes with an onscreen setup wizard for easy installation. Other features include up to a seven-day electronic programming guide (EPG), program search, parental locks and VCR auto-tune timers. The box will be sold under both the EchoStar and Sling Media, Inc. brand names for $39.99 at retail, and can be purchased via the National Telecommunications and Information Administration's Digital-to-Analog Converter Box Coupon Program. The program provides U.S. households with up to two coupons, worth $40 each, toward the purchase of eligible digital-to-analog converter boxes, which includes the TR-40. Visit http://www.dtv2009.gov for more details.

EchoStar will also offer the TR-50 DVR digital-to-analog converter box that includes a digital video recorder, allowing customers to view, record and play back local over-the-air analog and digital broadcasts, including high definition. The TR-50 DVR offers all of the TR-40 features, plus closed captioning, reminder pop-ups for pre-selected programming, simultaneous output from HD and SD connections, as well as Ethernet, modem and USB connections to support additional functionality. Pricing for the TR-50 DVR will be established in the coming months.

The TR-40 is sampling now and will be available in limited quantities in March and unlimited quantities in June of this year. The TR-50 DVR will be available in July.

``While DISH Network has always offered 100 percent digital programming, we know there are still a lot of consumers who have analog TV sets and want to ensure they can continue to watch their favorite over-the-air programming without interruption,'' said Mark Jackson, president of EchoStar Holding Corporation. ``Our new TR-40 and TR-50 DVR digital-to-analog converter boxes leverage the award-winning technology we put into our suite of receivers, and will provide analog TV owners a TV viewing experience not unlike that offered by digital TV sets.''

Both boxes will be available for demonstration at the 2008 Consumer Electronics Show in the DISH Network booth #9021, located in the Las Vegas Convention Center's main hall.

The Sling Media booth is #73106 at the Sands Convention Center.


----------



## MickeS

Luke M said:


> Correct. The only way would be if the ATSC box had a timer feature.


Someone should contact them and correct that then.


----------



## fallingwater

wmcbrine said:


> S-video is allowed.
> 
> To me, the surprising thing is that they don't _all_ have s-video. I doubt it makes a lot of difference in the price, considering that I can get component output on a $20 DVD player.


For reference Comcast's standard-def digital STB's only provide line and coax outputs but produce better than average quality pictures.

S-video theoretically provides a better signal than composite, but I really don't see much difference. Now that composite/S-Video adapters are available some S-Video signals aren't even theoretically better. When there is a noticeable difference, S-Video signals can be too bright and appear washed out.

Often individual components in a signal chain cause more quality differences than the type of signal. I'm more concerned about component compatibility than about the precise standard-def signal path. A HDTiVo can manually record from outboard standard-def sources only from coax for example. With a strong clean source, coax, composite and S-video all are capable of providing excellent standard-def quality.

Of course standard-def component signals do produce significantly better pictures than any of the above.


----------



## fallingwater

Luke M said:


> EchoStar's TR-40..box will be sold under both the EchoStar and Sling Media, Inc. brand names for $39.99 at retail, and can be purchased via the National Telecommunications and Information Administration's Digital-to-Analog Converter Box Coupon Program. The program provides U.S. households with up to two coupons, worth $40 each, toward the purchase of eligible digital-to-analog converter boxes, which includes the TR-40.


Gee; FREE!!!


----------



## fallingwater

Luke M said:


> ...EchoStar will also offer the TR-50 DVR digital-to-analog converter box that includes a digital video recorder, allowing customers to view, record and play back local over-the-air analog and digital broadcasts, including high definition. The TR-50 DVR offers all of the TR-40 features, plus closed captioning, reminder pop-ups for pre-selected programming, simultaneous output from HD and SD connections, as well as Ethernet, modem and USB connections to support additional functionality. Pricing for the TR-50 DVR will be established in the coming months.
> ...
> The TR-50 DVR will be available in July...


If priced cheap enough E*'s TR-50 will impact HDTiVo sales. Wonder how all this relates to the E*/TiVo lawsuit!


----------



## cowboys2002

So how many years and websites are required to inform people of the pending change to digital?

My local newscasts keep mentioning www.dtvanswers.com and their own website for information.

I thought all TV's manufactured or sale in the USA after a certain date HAD to have a digital tuner (SD and HDTV) built-in?

I realize that many people have older TV's (I personally have one over 10 years old and another over 20 years old) and will need a digital to analog converter box. But, then again, I subscribe to DTV on all tv's and therfore don't need a converter box anyway. Any replacement TV's I purchase will have built-in HDTV tuning.


----------



## Luke M

fallingwater said:


> Of course standard-def component signals do produce significantly better pictures than any of the above.


I would have said that s-video provides a significant advantage over composite, while component offers only a small advantage over s-video (if any). Of course it depends on the source and the monitor, so these generalizations don't apply in every case.


----------



## Adam1115

It is correct to assume that the pq of the STB will be better than analog cable?

Will any of these do 480p?


----------



## wmcbrine

fallingwater said:


> S-video theoretically provides a better signal than composite, but I really don't see much difference.


I've always seen a huge difference. Of course it all depends on the equipment. But for me, it's been true for every device and every monitor.



Adam1115 said:


> It is correct to assume that the pq of the STB will be better than analog cable?


It should look MUCH better. Depending on your cable system, blah blah... but seriously, much better.



> _Will any of these do 480p?_


No, that would require at least component out, which is banned.


----------



## Luke M

fallingwater said:


> Gee; FREE!!!


Free money for the manufacturer and/or retailer, since they get to keep the difference between the cost and $40 as profit (nobody will sell for less than $40 since it won't lower the price to the consumer!)


----------



## alansh

Over on AVSForum, there's some indication that a lot of the boxes are using the same LG chipset, so there may not be that much difference between them.

All devices sold on or after 3/1/2007 that receive over the air broadcasts must have a digital tuner. This is why the Series2 DT and 542* TiVos only record from cable sources -- they don't have digital tuners. They still have RF in connections (to support analog cable channels and cable boxes with RF out), but you can't select an OTA guide source or tune to UHF channels.


*TiVo sold some refurbished 540s as 542s, the only difference being disabling OTA reception.


----------



## fallingwater

Luke M said:


> I would have said that s-video provides a significant advantage over composite, while component offers only a small advantage over s-video (if any). Of course it depends on the source and the monitor, so these generalizations don't apply in every case.


WOW, do I disagree! 

But as you state, the truth may be that both of us are right! Frankly I've been surprised by the non PC results I've experienced employing a variety of sources and displays.


----------



## fallingwater

wmcbrine said:


> (A STB) should look MUCH better. Depending on your cable system, blah blah... but seriously, much better.


I disagree. It could look much better but that's not a forgone conclusion. Good analog is easily better than compressed digital.

Of course OTA digital is often better than small dish satellite digital. But cable analog done right is better than many analog OTA signals.


----------



## wmcbrine

fallingwater said:


> I disagree. It could look much better but that's not a forgone conclusion. Good analog is easily better than compressed digital.


No.

First, we're not just talking about "compressed digital"; we're talking about downconverted HD. That looks _amazing_ on a low-def TV; it's the best picture you can get, period. IMHO it doesn't look dramatically better than DVD (to see _that_ difference, you need an EDTV or HDTV set), but they both look much, much better than other sources.

Second, this "good analog" that people sometimes speak of... I've never seen it. Certainly not from a cable system.


----------



## fallingwater

wmcbrine said:


> No.
> 
> First, we're not just talking about "compressed digital"; we're talking about downconverted HD. That looks _amazing_ on a low-def TV; it's the best picture you can get, period. IMHO it doesn't look dramatically better than DVD (to see _that_ difference, you need an EDTV or HDTV set), but they both look much, much better than other sources.
> 
> Second, this "good analog" that people sometimes speak of... I've never seen it. Certainly not from a cable system.


The best standard-def pictures I see on either standard-def or hi-def displays are from commercial DVD's.

Although a properly adjusted standard-def CRT TV presents excellent pictures there is a point beyond which it can't go. But that's no problem; it's still a joy to watch!

The analog side of my cable system must be way above average. Not every channel is perfect but 2/3rds or more are remarkably similiar to living a few blocks from the Empire State Building in a 40 story penthouse facing it.


----------



## Adam1115

Lurker-d said:


> Viewers of low-power stations could end up with the wrong converter box


What kind of stupid article is this?

If you already have analog, you don't need a converter to convert you analog that you already have to analog. 

The *digital* converter is for stations that need converted to digital.

EDIT- ok, now I get it, I read the whole article. I guess the concern is that some of the boxes won't 'pass through' the antenna when turned off to allow you to still use analog on the TV. I would think that would be a pretty poorly designed box.


----------



## GoHokies!

That would be a pretty bad design, but calling it a "glitch" that LPTV and translators don't have to switch is a gross mischaracterization.


----------



## Vigilante212

Maybe one of you guys can help me. I have a LCD tv with 1080i capability. My question is since the new converter boxes pretty much dumb down the digital channels to work on standard tv's is there a better option I can go for to pickup local channels in full HD? I dont want cable or satelite.


----------



## MacerX

ZeoTiVo said:


> very true - my "digital" OTA antenna was a 30$ one off the shelf at circuit City. Its only problem is being directional. I am consdiering an attic mounted omni directional rig to get more stations though I have not researched the models yet.
> 
> But yes I used "digital" as just a way to distinguish from analog only.


Just a comment that ~30% of the OTA signal strength is lost through the roof, so consider type and placement of antenna carefully. I haven't checked in a long time, but antennaweb.org used to be a good site to help decide.


----------



## wmcbrine

Vigilante212 said:


> Maybe one of you guys can help me. I have a LCD tv with 1080i capability. My question is since the new converter boxes pretty much dumb down the digital channels to work on standard tv's is there a better option I can go for to pickup local channels in full HD? I dont want cable or satelite.


Your TV probably has a built-in ATSC tuner. If not, yes, there are separate HD receivers you can buy. Unfortunately they're much more expensive than the subsidized boxes will be. Hopefully they'll come down in price along with the mass production of those models; but they'll always be kind of a niche market, since the newer sets tend to include ATSC tuners and/or be hooked up to cable/sat receivers.

You best bet is probably a TiVo HD. Seriously. You can run it OTA-only and get full use of it, paying only for the TiVo subscription. I think you can also use it as a receiver (only -- no recording) even without a subscription.


----------



## MighTiVo

I wish TiVo would offer a thin client MRV box with digital OTA tuner. Keep it cheap with streaming only, and have a USB port for memory or disk to pause live TV, play photos from a camera, or add a local Hard drive for more MRV storage.


----------



## Vigilante212

Yea my tv was hd compatible when I bought it so no ATSC tuner built in. How does tivo work is it kind of like cable and satelite? Forgive me if I sound stupid I dont know anyone who owns or has ever owned a tivo. I know my parents bought a dvd/vcr recorder and it picks up the HD channels for their tv. That was around $200 though


----------



## jrm01

Vigilante212 said:


> Maybe one of you guys can help me. I have a LCD tv with 1080i capability. My question is since the new converter boxes pretty much dumb down the digital channels to work on standard tv's is there a better option I can go for to pickup local channels in full HD? I dont want cable or satelite.


Edit: Dumb response removed.


----------



## wmcbrine

jrm01, he just told us that he does not have an ATSC tuner built-in.


----------



## jrm01

wmcbrine said:


> jrm01, he just told us that he does not have an ATSC tuner built-in.


Oops. that's what happens when you respond to post 103 before reading post 107.


----------



## classicsat

A Series 3/TiVo HD will work like a cable/satellite receiver/DVR, in you connect your antenna directly to the TiVo, and the TiVo directly to your TV. Of course, you also connect phone or your home network to it, and subscribe to the TiVo service.


----------



## kreece05

New Brands and Models Appear on NTIA Approved List!!
http://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm

Converter Box Retailers & approved DTV converter boxes with Links to Specs and Pics 
http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Converter_Box_Retailers.html


----------



## stahta01

Comparison table
http://www.freelabs.com/~whitis/electronics/dtv_converters/

Tim S


----------



## fallingwater

Not much additional info in the comparison section but one requirement in the article, if true, kicks in the head the ability to use any coupon eligible box with TiVo. 

Nothing in the article refers to QAM tuning but to save energy: "Automatic standby after 4 hours inactivity: required, user override required" 

Guess those coupons aren't such a good deal after all!


----------



## bicker

I'm not sure why this "wipes out" or "kicks in the head" the ability to use a coupon-eligible box with TiVo. If I recall correctly, TiVo hits the box with an IR burst for every new program it records, even if it is on the same channel. So the only programs affected by this would be those over 4 hours long. I cannot remember ever having set up a single recording that long, and surely such recordings are a very small percentage of the recordings set up by TiVo users.


----------



## maharg18

fallingwater said:


> Nothing in the article refers to QAM tuning but to save energy: "Automatic standby after 4 hours inactivity: required, user override required"


The question is, what do they mean by "user override required"? Could that mean there will be a menu option so you can disable the standby function? If so, then this becomes a non-issue.


----------



## bicker

If it actually is an Energy Star issue, then disabling it won't be an option.


----------



## fallingwater

bicker said:


> I'm not sure why this "wipes out" or "kicks in the head" the ability to use a coupon-eligible box with TiVo. If I recall correctly, TiVo hits the box with an IR burst for every new program it records, even if it is on the same channel. So the only programs affected by this would be those over 4 hours long. I cannot remember ever having set up a single recording that long, and surely such recordings are a very small percentage of the recordings set up by TiVo users.


TiVo would have to be programmed to send a signal every 3+ hrs. just to keep a converter turned on unless programs less than 4 hrs. long were being recorded continually.

TiVo has a history of playing by the rules. It's not likely to develop a program which circumvents gov't. mandated energy regulations as policy.


----------



## Vigilante212

Looks like I need to buy an hdtv reciever if I want to get full 1080i broadcasts. Thank for the help.


----------



## bicker

fallingwater said:


> TiVo would have to be programmed to send a signal every 3+ hrs. just to keep a converter turned on unless programs less than 4 hrs. long were being recorded continually.


Not necessarily: All they'd have to do is design the converter box so that it comes back from standby with just a channel change command. It is just like my Energy Star-compliant computer monitor; it shuts off after a period of time, but it comes right back on just by my moving my mouse.


----------



## fallingwater

bicker said:


> Not necessarily: All they'd have to do is design the converter box so that it comes back from standby with just a channel change command. It is just like my Energy Star-compliant computer monitor; it shuts off after a period of time, but it comes right back on just by my moving my mouse.


Sure! But who are 'they'? There are at latest count, 25 approved converters from 19 manufacturers, all engineered using current gov't. mandated standards.


----------



## bicker

Is there any reason to believe the devices don't work as I suggested, given that my description indeed meets government standards?


----------



## fallingwater

It's unlikely, but possible that at least some do. 

For TiVo to support IR control for coupon eligible boxes as a category all would have to react in the same way to a TiVo button push.


----------



## bicker

Indeed, TiVo will need to support IR control for each box on its own merits, not as a category.


----------



## fallingwater

If TiVo develops support for IR control of ATSC STB's and/or 'converters', I think it would be wonderful. If you believe they will, I hope you're right!

I don't think TiVo will go that route. The regulation that coupon eligible converters must turn themselves off every 4 hours works against TiVo developing IR control for them.

I'm not much interested in using converter coupons now that I know the specs. It'll be interesting to see if the one converter that claims QAM tuning actually offers it in its coupon version. I'd gladly pay $40 more for QAM and user selectable shutoff!


----------



## BobCamp1

fallingwater said:


> I don't think TiVo will go that route. The regulation that coupon eligible converters must turn themselves off every 4 hours works against TiVo developing IR control for them.


First, I'll look that up and get back to you. This may not be an issue at all.

Second, Tivo just has to send the "power on" IR code before it changes the channel. I don't understand what the big deal is.


----------



## fallingwater

Unless a STB utilizes discrete on and off commands, extremely unlikely in cheap converters, sending a 'power-on' command could be the worst possible thing for TiVo to do. 

That's part of the reason I believe that converters and TiVo ultimately won't dance!


----------



## bicker

You're basing your objections on pretty flaky speculation. Why not actually find out before pronouncing failure?


----------



## fallingwater

That's your opinion. I already posted mine at: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5872880#post5872880


----------



## MighTiVo

fallingwater said:


> Unless a STB utilizes discrete on and off commands, extremely unlikely in cheap converters, sending a 'power-on' command could be the worst possible thing for TiVo to do.
> 
> That's part of the reason I believe that converters and TiVo ultimately won't dance!


Which is why TiVo really needs to work with one of the manufactures and cobrand a supported box. Ideally with USB for control instead of IR.
Regulations say no USB for video, but I don't see anything that would eliminate USB for control.


----------



## MighTiVo

fallingwater said:


> TiVo would have to be programmed to send a signal every 3+ hrs. just to keep a converter turned on unless programs less than 4 hrs. long were being recorded continually.
> 
> TiVo has a history of playing by the rules. It's not likely to develop a program which circumvents gov't. mandated energy regulations as policy.


What the guidelines actually say:
_The default period of inactivity before the equipment automatically switches to the Sleep state shall be four hours. Eligible equipment may allow the current program to complete before switching to the Sleep state. The default energy related settings shall not be altered during the initial user set-up process and shall persist unless the user chooses at a later date to manually: *(a) disable the "automatic switching to Sleep state" capability*, or (b) adjust the default time period from 4 hours to some other value.

_


----------



## alansh

Anyway, apart from the box staying on, TiVo would have to at minimum allow selecting a "cable box" that matches the DTV converter, and select an OTA lineup.

If one of the tuners shares the same IR codes as an existing cable box, you might be able to fake the TiVo out to an extent. It would only be able to tune the channels that have the same numbers for OTA on the cable lineup you select. You could deselect all the other channels in "channels I receive".


----------



## fallingwater

MighTiVo said:


> What the guidelines actually say:
> _The default period of inactivity before the equipment automatically switches to the Sleep state shall be four hours. Eligible equipment may allow the current program to complete before switching to the Sleep state. The default energy related settings shall not be altered during the initial user set-up process and shall persist unless the user chooses at a later date to manually: *(a) disable the "automatic switching to Sleep state" capability*, or (b) adjust the default time period from 4 hours to some other value._


If, after initial set-up, converter users can select 'always-on' as the default setting TiVo definitely has more incentive to support IR control for converters to enhance TiVo's competitive position. I hope they do!

Energy Star Program Requirements quoted above:
http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/product_specs/eligibility/dtas_elig.pdf

NTIA guidelines/rules:
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_2e.htm

_j. Energy Specifications

82. In response to its request for comments on whether and to what extent NTIA should consider energy usage in determining eligibility criteria, [ 135 ] several comments urged NTIA to either adopt minimum requirements or, on a permissive basis, encourage manufacturers to incorporate certain energy efficiency features. In addition to several comments generally urging NTIA to address energy usage, three areas of specific recommendations emerged from the comments: (1) an automatic power down feature and maximum power level for converters in "sleep" or standby mode; (2) a maximum power level in the "on" or operating mode; and (3) the effect of an NTIA energy specification on various state regulations and proposals.

83. The majority of comments support adoption of some type of energy usage requirement into the eligibility criteria for CECBs.[ 136 ] With respect to NTIA's proposal to consider the CECB's cost, comments advised NTIA to consider that energy costs could raise the box's overall cost. According to the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy (ACEEE), a converter without energy usage limits of any kind would cost "more than two times more to operate over its estimated 5 year life than its estimated $40-$50 purchase cost."[ 137 ] Comments assert that energy standards for CECBs would reduce the energy cost for U.S. consumers, thereby lowering the overall cost of ownership.

84. The record suggests that significant operating cost and energy savings could be achieved by requiring CECBs to include an auto power-down feature and standby power limits. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) estimated that televisions are not in use in typical households for 18-20 hours per day, yet converter boxes may remain on during that time if no one turns them off or if there is no automatic power-down feature.[ 138 ] The EPA urged NTIA to require an auto power-down feature, to mandate that products be shipped with the feature enabled, and also suggested an auto power down feature after four hours of user inactivity, combined with a one watt power limit in standby mode.

85. A supplementary comment was received from the Joint Industry Comments with the additional support of the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) and the CERC[ 139 ] requesting NTIA adopt two energy use performance specifications: (a) converters shall use no more than two watts of electricity in a "Sleep" state, and (b) converters shall meet an automatic power-down requirement after four hours of inactivity.[ 140 ] The Joint Industry Energy Comment also recommended these settings be enabled at the factory as default settings that could be changed by the consumer.[ 141 ]

86. Walmart also supported an automatic standby mode after four hours with a maximum allowable standby level of two watts.[ 142 ] The standby energy level of two watts is also consistent with the CEA's voluntary standard CEA-2013 and is appropriate for the narrow purposes of the converter coupon program.[ 143 ] No comments opposed adoption of a four-hour standby trigger or a two watt standby energy level. NTIA believes that consumers will benefit significantly from an automatic power-down feature triggered after four hours of inactivity and a "sleep" state operating power level of two watts. Therefore, NTIA will require these performance capabilities for eligible converters.

87. ACEEE calculated that significant cost savings could be realized through capping a CECB's operating power limits at eight watts, a reduction from an estimated 17 or 18 watts.[ 144 ] No other comments suggested an operating limit be imposed. Walmart stated that while it is "very supportive of efforts to reduce the 'On-mode' power use due to the additional energy savings they can provide, we are deferring such discussions to other policy forums such as ENERGY STAR and state standard setting procedures."[ 145 ]

88. We are aware that, on January 31, 2007, the EPA's ENERGY STAR program adopted voluntary specifications for converter boxes. The EPA's voluntary specifications include one watt power consumption during the "sleep" mode and also include eight watt power consumption during the "on" mode.[ 146 ] NTIA's requirements for a CECB include two watt power consumption during the "sleep" mode, and does not include a specification for power consumption during the "on" mode. NTIA urges manufacturers participating in the Coupon Program to adopt those ENERGY STAR specifications._


----------



## MighTiVo

_According to the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy (ACEEE), a converter without energy usage limits of any kind would cost more than two times more to operate over its estimated 5 year life than its estimated $40-$50 purchase cost.

The EPA's voluntary specifications include one watt power consumption during the sleep mode and also include eight watt power consumption during the on mode.

NTIA's requirements for a CECB include two watt power consumption during the sleep mode, and does not include a specification for power consumption during the on mode. NTIA urges manufacturers participating in the Coupon Program to adopt those ENERGY STAR specifications._

Running 1 watt 24x7 is about 70¢-90¢/year (based on 8¢-10¢/kWh)

For a CECB to use $100 over its 5 year life it would need to use 22-28 Watts, or about the same as a 
S2 TiVo.


----------



## magnus

I'm probably going to get the ECHOSTAR TR-40 (slingbox version). At least that's what i am leaning toward so far.


----------



## Luke M

magnus said:


> I'm probably going to get the ECHOSTAR TR-40 (slingbox version). At least that's what i am leaning toward so far.


Is anything known about it besides the price?


----------



## magnus

Right now, I'm going solely on price. Until I see features on the others that might change my mind.... Or until TIVO gives a :up: to one brand or another.... I'll just stick with the best price.



Luke M said:


> Is anything known about it besides the price?


----------



## bicker

Any update (yet) on whether TiVo S2 units will drive any of these boxes?


----------



## magnus

Not a word... that I have seen yet anyway. Tivo is being very tight lipped about it.


----------



## magnus

Now that the coupons will be shipping out..... has anyone seen any of these boxes at the retail stores? If so, which boxes have you seen/where?


----------



## magnus

Here are the URLs for the ones that I can find so far:

Magnavox @ Walmart

RCA @ Walmart

Insignia @ BestBuy

Zenith @ CircuitCity

Zenith @ RadioShack


----------



## riddick21

Will these items pass signal from coax right through. I need to demodulate a satellite signal that I have running through coax from a different room so I can use both cable and satellite on my s2. Right now I got two coax and I need one of them converted to composite.


----------



## wmcbrine

magnus said:


> Here are the URLs for the ones that I can find so far:
> 
> Magnavox @ Walmart
> 
> RCA @ Walmart
> 
> Insignia @ BestBuy
> 
> Zenith @ CircuitCity
> 
> Zenith @ RadioShack


Interesting... they certainly aren't trying to compete on price, are they? Everything $59.99, except the two Wal-Mart models, which are both $49.87. And all of them are in-store only -- why? I understand that you have to present the coupon in person, but you can buy these without using the coupon.


----------



## bicker

Perhaps it points out, "Why would you buy one of these without a coupon?" Figure that after the coupons are gone, perhaps the prices will drop. Until then, the existence of the coupons props up the price, so that buying them without a coupon isn't really "worth it".


----------



## MickeS

bicker said:


> Perhaps it points out, "Why would you buy one of these without a coupon?" Figure that after the coupons are gone, perhaps the prices will drop. Until then, the existence of the coupons props up the price, so that buying them without a coupon isn't really "worth it".


My guess is they don't want to deal with returns or other hassle from people who ordered online, and find out they can't redeem the coupon that way.


----------



## classicsat

riddick21 said:


> Will these items pass signal from coax right through. I need to demodulate a satellite signal that I have running through coax from a different room so I can use both cable and satellite on my s2. Right now I got two coax and I need one of them converted to composite.


They won't tune analog NTSC signals if that is what you are asking.

I don't know if they will bypass the incoming RF out through the RF out.


----------



## riddick21

classicsat said:


> They won't tune analog NTSC signals if that is what you are asking.
> 
> I don't know if they will bypass the incoming RF out through the RF out.


I don't need it to tune anything. I only get one channel through satellite but the receiver is hooked up to my main TV in the living room and that signal is split to my other rooms through coax. What I want to do is have it hook up to my bedroom Tivo but I use the one coax input for cable. Will this pass the incoming satellite RF through to the composite output? Thanks.


----------



## mattack

riddick21 said:


> I don't need it to tune anything. I only get one channel through satellite but the receiver is hooked up to my main TV in the living room and that signal is split to my other rooms through coax. What I want to do is have it hook up to my bedroom Tivo but I use the one coax input for cable. Will this pass the incoming satellite RF through to the composite output? Thanks.


I still don't get what you're trying to do -- do you mean you're trying to send the signal back onto coax?

If so, then the cheapest way of doing that is a broken VCR (just because you're not 'losing' anything by not having the recording ability). Though from any normal consumer priced device, you'll only get mono audio this way.


----------



## riddick21

I'm trying to demodulate a coax signal into composite (Red, white, and yellow). Yeah I could do it with a VCR but I think I threw out my last VCR a while ago and there's no point in buying one when I will be getting this tuner anyway. I just want to know if I can get another use out of this converter.


----------



## classicsat

Demodulate=tune. Those tuners cannot tune an analog TV signal, only digital. You can, or at least could, get really basic analog TV tuners.


----------



## magnus

It would be great if TivoPony or someone from Tivo could tell us if any of the converter boxes are going to work with the S1/S2 Tivos. 

How about it? Are there plans for doing this? It would be great to get at least... a yes we are working on this or.... no we have no plans to do this at all.


----------



## classicsat

Word is they are considering their options. Spend money on engineering a solution for Series 2s, or spend some money on and offer to upgrade them to TiVoHD.


----------



## bicker

The latter could be quite complicated, especially with regard to S2s such as the Pioneer 810-H.


----------



## jlb

I am in a moral quandry. I want to eBay, or sell, my decommissioned S2DT. However, I feel that honesty is necessary and that I should mention the fact that a DT will become a ST.

What do you think?


----------



## classicsat

Just give the TiVo marketspeak. Tell prospective bidders that Dual Tuners requires analog cable, and digital only services require a box, and only one digital box is supported.


----------



## magnus

bump and a couple of links I found.

http://dtvfacts.com/

EchoStar TR-40 (June/July Availability)


----------



## EShiller

Hi,

I requested (2) TV Converter Box coupons early, just received them yesterday. The look just like a credit/debit card and expire after 90 days.

Now, I have until 5/27/08 to make up my mine before purchasing a converter box. Included is a listing of Coupon Eligible Converter Boxes. They are also listed at:

www.ntiadtv.ogc/cecb_list.cfm

The way my S2 TiVO box is connected to my TV, is that the cable goes to the TiVO and TiVO connects to the TV. Therefore, wouldn't the converted box simply go from the cable and then to TiVo?

SO the question is will the TiVO handle the converter box?

They better or good-bye TiVO and hello DVR from cable company.

Ethan I.


----------



## classicsat

It would work the same way as a cable box. The thing is though that a Series 2 does not directly support "Antenna With Box" setup (and digital OTA guide data and channel changing, plus lacks IR codes for those tuners), at least yet.


----------



## magnus

They could redo guided setup... saying that they have cable or directv with a set top box (of course it might take several attempts to get it to work and it might not ever work). Then see if any of the IR will simply change the channel to the main channel. Example: changing the channel to 8 would simply change it to 8-1 but none of the sub channels. Also, with that kind of setup the guide data would not show for any of the sub channels.

One real quick way to test if this is even going to be possible is to use the converter remote to change to 8 and see if it goes to the main channel (8-1). 

I'm going to be in the same boat soon because I will have my coupons in the next few days. It sure would be nice of Tivo to get a response on this board before anyone really starts going out and buying these.


----------



## bicker

That's the main reason why I've held back requesting my coupons, waiting for TiVo to bless one of the boxes.


----------



## Budget_HT

EShiller said:


> Hi,
> 
> I requested (2) TV Converter Box coupons early, just received them yesterday. The look just like a credit/debit card and expire after 90 days.
> 
> Now, I have until 5/27/08 to make up my mine before purchasing a converter box. Included is a listing of Coupon Eligible Converter Boxes. They are also listed at:
> 
> www.ntiadtv.ogc/cecb_list.cfm
> 
> The way my S2 TiVO box is connected to my TV, is that the cable goes to the TiVO and TiVO connects to the TV. Therefore, wouldn't the converted box simply go from the cable and then to TiVo?
> 
> SO the question is will the TiVO handle the converter box?
> 
> They better or good-bye TiVO and hello DVR from cable company.
> 
> Ethan I.


From your post, I am not clear on if you are using an antenna or cable as your source.

If you are using an antenna, then you will need a converter box to receive the OTA digital channels.

If you are using cable, the converter box won't work with cable. But, your TiVo still will until sometime later when the cable company drops their analog channel lineup. That is a few years away for most cable systems. Even then, the DTV OTA converter box will not work with cable. You would need a cable-company-provided box.


----------



## magnus

Yes but there are only so many of them (coupons) out there to get. So, you might end up waiting too long to get one... while waiting for Tivo to bless one of them (and that's IF they bless one or any of them).



bicker said:


> That's the main reason why I've held back requesting my coupons, waiting for TiVo to bless one of the boxes.


----------



## bicker

That's okay. The coupons are of no use to me if they don't work with the TiVo.


----------



## gastrof

EShiller said:


> ...The way my S2 TiVO box is connected to my TV, is that the cable goes to the TiVO and TiVO connects to the TV. Therefore, wouldn't the converted box simply go from the cable and then to TiVo?
> 
> SO the question is will the TiVO handle the converter box?
> 
> They better or good-bye TiVO and hello DVR from cable company.
> 
> Ethan I.


Check the facts on whatever converter(s) you buy.

From what I hear, most (if not all) of the boxes the coupons are for are meant for OverTheAir television, not for use with digital cable.

If you find one that works with digital cable ("QAM"), please let us know.

Right now, unless the converter box is by a manufacturer that used the same InfraRed flashes/codes as currently known cable or satellite boxes, a TiVo will not be able to control the channel changes on such a box.

There's been nothing heard from TiVo about Series 1 or 2 machines having their IR data base updated to control OTA digital boxes.


----------



## classicsat

gastrof said:


> Right now, unless the converter box is by a manufacturer that used the same InfraRed flashes/codes as currently known cable or satellite boxes, a TiVo will not be able to control the channel changes on such a box.
> 
> There's been nothing heard from TiVo about Series 1 or 2 machines having their IR data base updated to control OTA digital boxes.


It is more than just an IR database issue. If that is all it was, then it would have been fixed long ago, with the relatively minor task of adding the IR codes of these new boxes all that is required.

The fact is that it is a lower level software issue, in that they need to add support for "-" in the guide data and channel changing operations, and guided setup for "Antenna with box".

TiVo will not want to cobble up some backdoor "Cable with box" option, they will want to do it right with a proper "Antenna With Box" option.


----------



## larkor

My coupons came Friday and I bought a Best Buy Insignia box yesterday. 

Local channels are available on Dish, so I thought I'd try the satellite box choice for input so the channel numbers and program descriptions would match. My hope was to at least be able to tune the networks (NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX and PBS) since they all come in with rabbit ears. 

I first chose Zenith for the box manufacturer but that didn't work. I next chose LG and the box responded. I pushed 7 on the Tivo control and after a few seconds it defaulted to 7.1. NBC! I pushed 9 and 9.1 appeared. CBS! I pushed 29 for ABC and it defaults to 2.9. Bummer. "291" tunes the proper channel but the channel and program description is wrong. 

So single digits work, but multiple digits result in a channel plus subchannel number. This seems to me it could be easily remedied by Tivo for Zenith/Insignia boxes.


----------



## magnus

Thanks for sharing... that is encouraging. Did you try with just the remote for you digital converter box? If you press 29 does it go to 29.1?

Could you post exactly what model and setup you tried?

Example (assuming that you used/faked satellite to get the guide data):
Channel Changing
-->Satellite Box 
----->LG
--> Satellite Enter Button
-----> Yes or No (typical)

It could be that you need to set it up to use the enter button.



larkor said:


> My coupons came Friday and I bought a Best Buy Insignia box yesterday.
> 
> Local channels are available on Dish, so I thought I'd try the satellite box choice for input so the channel numbers and program descriptions would match. My hope was to at least be able to tune the networks (NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX and PBS) since they all come in with rabbit ears.
> 
> I first chose Zenith for the box manufacturer but that didn't work. I next chose LG and the box responded. I pushed 7 on the Tivo control and after a few seconds it defaulted to 7.1. NBC! I pushed 9 and 9.1 appeared. CBS! I pushed 29 for ABC and it defaults to 2.9. Bummer. "291" tunes the proper channel but the channel and program description is wrong.
> 
> So single digits work, but multiple digits result in a channel plus subchannel number. This seems to me it could be easily remedied by Tivo for Zenith/Insignia boxes.


----------



## larkor

I was able to change channels with the Tivo Remote. I believe it was the second choice tested. The code number I am using for the Insignia NS-DXA1 box is 10075-C. I have to push 291 to get channel 29.1. Selecting 29 resulted in channel 2.9, a nonexistent channel. Pushing the enter button seems to not make a difference. 

One quirk is channel 33.1. 

Pushing 331 does not result in 33.1 or any digital channel. Pushing 471 changes it to 33.1, 47.1 being the channel on which dtv 33 resides. Channel 29 is on dtv 31.1, but pushing 291 works for some reason.

I am able to choose any digital channel using the Tivo remote to enter the channels directly. Using the channel up or down doesn't work.

I hope Tivo includes a DTV converter with antenna for one of their input choices because we have a low power station that will remain analog after the conversion.


----------



## alyssa

I'm way behind this issue since I have cable. However I just gave my sister my old S2 since they use OTA signal. They're getting a digital flatscreen later this spring. They signed up for a coupon but have not gotten a converter box yet.

if they have a digital tv & an S2 with OTA, do they need a converter box for the S2? Is a converter box needed for the S2 and/or the analog TV?

I gather the IR controllers won't work for the converter box?

I'm trying to clear this up now 'cuz my sister had a decidedly tense tone to her voice when I started this conversation with her. I will dread telling her there's a problem with keeping the s2 tivo box....


----------



## jtcombs

I have generally the same experience as Larkor with the Insignia converter using the Dish line-up. All of the LG codes (10075 fast-med-slow) work the same, regardless of whether the Need to Press Enter is set to Yes or No.

Single digit locals on the Dish line-up take me to these digital channels:

2	->	2.1
4	-> 4.1
6	->	6.1
7	->	7.1
9	->	9.1

My experience on the double digit channels is more consistent. 
I use these Dish channels to get to the following digital channels:

120	->	12.1
200	->	20.1
310	->	31.1

That makes it easy for me. My S1 box is no longer subscribed so lack of proper guide data isn&#8217;t an issue for me. 

Channel 12 has a couple of sub channels I don&#8217;t tune into but could. I&#8217;ve checked and these combinations work:

121	->	12.1 
122	->	12.2


----------



## magnus

What happens when you press 12 on the remote for the digital converter box? I'm curious to know if it tunes to 12.1 or not. Thanks.


----------



## larkor

Hard to say. I have satellite with antenna setup. Even with the channel locked out, it chooses the local nondigital channel 12 only.


----------



## larkor

Just checked. 121 results 12.1. No channel received of course.


----------



## jtcombs

The Insignia converter box and remote work like this without TiVo: When you press 12 on the remote, the converter box tunes in 12.1.

When you add the TiVo box into the configuration, the issue seems to be that the TiVo box sends a leading 0 before the 12 so that if you use the local channel 12 from the Dish lineup, the Insignia box tries to tune digital channel 1.2. 

In my configuration, going to a three digit channel from the Dish lineup eliminates the leading 0. Choosing 120 or 121 from the Dish lineup both result in the Insignia box tuning channel 12.1. Choosing Dish 122 makes the converter box tune 12.2 and choosing Dish 123 makes the converter box tune 12.3.


----------



## sitcomchap

I have a Tivo series 2 and receive the television signal via a rooftop antenna. When the ditigal conversion happens in a year, I know I will need a converter box. But will I need a new rooftop antenna also?


----------



## larkor

Maybe. Probably not. In my case I went from 5 stations of varying fuzziness to 9 stations (including sub stations) of perfect reception.


----------



## wmcbrine

alyssa said:


> if they have a digital tv & an S2 with OTA, do they need a converter box for the S2?


No, they need a TiVo HD. Seriously -- there's no point in buying an HD set and then feeding it SD.

The S2 _will_ work with an HDTV; it'll just suck.



> _Is a converter box needed for the S2 and/or the analog TV?_


The converter box would go to the S2's input. Currently the S2 doesn't really support CECB's, but we hope this will change soon.

With a TiVo HD, no CECB would be needed.


----------



## sreeja

In my opinion choose Magnavox TB100MW9


----------



## larkor

I tried a friends TB100MW9 and couldn't find any code choice (Magnavox, Phillips) to control it. It also needs a decimal point input for direct subchannel tuning.


----------



## Clownpleco

I have a Series 2 - lifetime subscription and use rabbit ears.

I just got an insignia converter box from Best Buy. Let me know if I have this correct?

1) Hook the antenna feed to the converter box
2) converter box feed to tivo (would you suggest SVIDEO or RF)
3) Re-run guided setup and use cable/satellite?
4) I'll now have to use the following for channels:

120 for 12-0
121 for 12-1

5) We have one local VHF channel (3) any guesses what I will have to use for 3-1 and 3-2?

6) Poor wife will have to reconfigure all here season passes to use the new channels?


----------



## wmcbrine

Clownpleco said:


> Let me know if I have this correct?


You don't, sorry.



> _1) Hook the antenna feed to the converter box
> 2) converter box feed to tivo_


OK so far...



> _(would you suggest SVIDEO or RF)_


S-video is light years better than RF.



> _3) Re-run guided setup and use cable/satellite?_


I don't see how that would work, unless the lineups happened to match OTA (not likely).

Really, it would be better to just wait for TiVo to either make a digital OTA lineup available on the Series 2 -- along with IR codes for the CECB's -- or else declare definitively that they aren't going to do it. (I can't imagine why they wouldn't, but some here seem to think they won't.) In that case, you could either trash the S2 and get a TiVo HD, or leave TiVo behind.



> _4) I'll now have to use the following for channels:
> 
> 120 for 12-0
> 121 for 12-1
> 
> 5) We have one local VHF channel (3) any guesses what I will have to use for 3-1 and 3-2?
> 
> 6) Poor wife will have to reconfigure all here season passes to use the new channels?_


None of that sounds right. If 121 works for 12-1, then it won't match anything in the lineup, and you won't be able to set season passes for it, at all. Everything would have to be manual recordings.


----------



## cia_viewer

I did buy a new TiVo HD and HDTV, but I still want to use my TiVo series 2 with my best analog TV.

My 2 converter Box coupons came today with expiration date 5/28/08.

I have been following http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=980052
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units

At this point the Echostar TR-40 seems the only workable choice for my TiVo s2, since the CECBs output to only channels 3/4 and very few CECBs have programming information.

It has not occurred to me that TiVo would be able make adjustments and allow more CECB choices!


----------



## lessd

cia_viewer said:


> I did buy a new TiVo HD and HDTV, but I still want to use my TiVo series 2 with my best analog TV.
> 
> My 2 converter Box coupons came today with expiration date 5/28/08.
> 
> I have been following http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=980052
> and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units
> 
> At this point the Echostar TR-40 seems the only workable choice for my TiVo s2, since the CECBs output to only channels 3/4 and very few CECBs have programming information.
> 
> It has not occurred to me that TiVo would be able make adjustments and allow more CECB choices!


If you can find a converter that has composite or SVHS outputs you will get a much better picture and get the stereo from the broadcast as the converter most likely does not do a stereo modulate on ch 3 / ch 4 outputs. Hopefully TiVo will support one or more of these converters like they do the cable box. (A serial connection would be nice but that may be too much to ask for from a converter box at $59)


----------



## cia_viewer

lessd said:


> If you can find a converter that has composite or SVHS outputs you will get a much better picture and get the stereo from the broadcast as the converter most likely does not do a stereo modulate on ch 3 / ch 4 outputs. Hopefully TiVo will support one or more of these converters like they do the cable box. (A serial connection would be nice but that may be too much to ask for from a converter box at $59)


It is my understanding that all of the CECBs come with the red/white/yellow RCA phono 'composite?' output connections as well as the COAX output. There are only a handful that provide S-Video output. Is that the same as SVHS? I am not going to worry about S-Video.

I have had no experience with 'cable boxes'. My main concern is keeping my excellent Series 2 TiVo usable. Less than half of the CECBs will allow 'PassThrough' of the an analog signal. This is important until 2/2009. Very few include any significant EPG (Electronic Program Guide). I am GUESSING that is critical to working with my Series 2 TiVo.


----------



## aclowery

Has anyone tried using the digital stream box from Radio Shack on the TIVO? In another thread someone said it emulates a Pioneer cable box. I see the TIVO compatibility list does list a pioneer codes 00018, 20010, and 20017.



Trying to do the impossible according to Tivo support , series two dual tuner, "Satellite" and "Antenna with box". Thinking I can fool it to get some functionality if this converter box emulates a cable box. I could use one ir transmitter on each box. (the ir cable has two transmitters) I have learned that "the impossible" just means it will take a little longer.

I believe I can pick one of cable providers somewhere in my time zone that most closely matches the digital channel lineup, knowing that the Tivo may not be able to send the "-" for subchannels...until Tivo enables this feature in future firmware. 

I see folks have been able to get the LG box to (kinda) work as a satellite, but I already have a Satellite config.
Is any of this possible? 

Any other tuner boxes that have been tested?
Any Tivo supported cable boxes have built in ATSC OTA tuners?


----------



## dacoop7

I have 2 S2's, with lifetime, and OTA antenna. I just received my coupons, (kind of regret ordering so early), and trying to decide what to do. I have enough rewards points to get a Tivo HD, but will it only receive the HD channels, or will it receive the analog ones too? Hopefully they will do a lifetime transfer deal soon...it would be nice to transfer one of my lifetimes over to a Tivo HD. 

Any suggestions?


----------



## wmcbrine

dacoop7 said:


> I have enough rewards points to get a Tivo HD, but will it only receive the HD channels, or will it receive the analog ones too?


It gets everything.


----------



## classicsat

aclowery said:


> Trying to do the impossible according to Tivo support , series two dual tuner, "Satellite" and "Antenna with box".


The Series 2 DT for some reason, only supports setup for one box. Not Series 2 supportes "Antenna with box" yet



> Thinking I can fool it to get some functionality if this converter box emulates a cable box. I could use one ir transmitter on each box. (the ir cable has two transmitters) I have learned that "the impossible" just means it will take a little longer.


If your local cable provider does provide the local channels with their OTA numbers, it may wok.


> Any Tivo supported cable boxes have built in ATSC OTA tuners?


No cable boxes, at least the ones you get from the provider, have OTA tuners of any sort. It would be redundant, the channels being on cable already.


----------



## magnus

RCA DTA800 w/ TCD540040 (does not work) :down:

Tested:
Satellite w/RCA digital converter
21 --> 02-1 (a channel in my area but not 21-1 like it should be)
33 --> 03-3 (not valid)
68 --> 06-8 (not valid)

So, it appears that the extra 0 is causing the problem. If 21 is entered with the remote (for the digital converter box)... then it changes to 21-1. The same is true for the other channels. So, if there were a way to suppress the leading 0 then I think it would work.

-------------------------------------------
More Testing:
Cable w/box - non digital
08 --> 8-1 (good)
11 --> 11-1 (good)
33 --> 33 (CW local channel but lineup thinks it's ESPN)

Notes: with this method you don't get some of the guide data for the local channels and won't be able to tune them with Tivo.

Also, I put my converter into standby mode and then changed the channel with Tivo remote.... nothing happened... it did not even try to come out of standby mode.

--------------------------------------------
*Disadvantages*
1) Standby mode - how will Tivo be able to change the channel then?
2) Unless Tivo updates the IR control.... you won't be able to tune to the sub channels... 8-2 or 8-3 for example.
3) No guide data for the sub channels

*Advantages*
1) Better picture quality... duh


----------



## jimavera

As of 3/15/08, TIVO tech support says they WILL NOT support IR channel-change support for dtv converter boxes. This was confirmed with up-level support. Unless that changes, everyone who owns a Series 2 (or 1) tivo and gets their signal OTH will be screwed.

There is no legitimate reason TIVO can not provide IR code support for some dtv converters. They probably hope that by refusing support for converters they will make us buy new TIVOs (and abandon our lifetime subscriptions). The bad vibes with that are so high that I suspect many will do anything to run away from TIVO's grip, and will subscribe to satellite or cable (with free DVR) instead.

If TIVO is going to support dtv converters (contrary to what they are currently saying), then they need to tell us -now- which ones they will support, before the $40 coupons from the FCC expire in June.


----------



## magnus

I'm sure Tivo will do something but from my testing.... the standby mode for the converter box seems to be the biggest hurdle. I have a feeling that Tivo will do something to help those of us in this situation.



> There is no legitimate reason TIVO can not provide IR code support for some dtv converters. They probably hope that by refusing support for converters they will make us buy new TIVOs (and abandon our lifetime subscriptions). The bad vibes with that are so high that I suspect many will do anything to run away from TIVO's grip, and will subscribe to satellite or cable (with free DVR) instead.


----------



## GoHokies!

jimavera said:


> As of 3/15/08, TIVO tech support says they WILL NOT support IR channel-change support for dtv converter boxes. This was confirmed with up-level support. Unless that changes, everyone who owns a Series 2 (or 1) tivo and gets their signal OTH will be screwed.
> 
> There is no legitimate reason TIVO can not provide IR code support for some dtv converters. They probably hope that by refusing support for converters they will make us buy new TIVOs (and abandon our lifetime subscriptions). The bad vibes with that are so high that I suspect many will do anything to run away from TIVO's grip, and will subscribe to satellite or cable (with free DVR) instead.
> 
> If TIVO is going to support dtv converters (contrary to what they are currently saying), then they need to tell us -now- which ones they will support, before the $40 coupons from the FCC expire in June.


Wow, a conspiracy theory based on suspect info from a CSR?

Say it ain't so! 

I wouldn't believe the word of a CSR - not saying that it isn't going to play out this way, but I'll wait for official word from the mother ship.


----------



## classicsat

jimavera said:


> As of 3/15/08, TIVO tech support says they WILL NOT support IR channel-change support for dtv converter boxes. This was confirmed with up-level support. Unless that changes, everyone who owns a Series 2 (or 1) tivo and gets their signal OTH will be screwed.


Did the rep state they decided not to support the boxes, or just that they currently do not, or was the wording ambiguous? 


> There is no legitimate reason TIVO can not provide IR code support for some dtv converters.


For the umpteenth time:

The issue is not IR codes (although it is part of it, since they would have to capture and test them), but having at least, to re-write the setup routine to include "Antenna With Box"


----------



## wmcbrine

jimavera said:


> As of 3/15/08, TIVO tech support says they WILL NOT support IR channel-change support for dtv converter boxes. This was confirmed with up-level support.


I don't think the word of a CSR is worth the paper it isn't printed on. I'll wait for the press release, or at least a comment here from TiVoJerry, TiVoPony, etc.

Edit: Or until Feb. 2009 comes with no action.


----------



## magnus

Yep, but you would think that by now.... one of them would have stepped in on this thread and at least said something.



wmcbrine said:


> I don't think the word of a CSR is worth the paper it isn't printed on. I'll wait for the press release, or at least a comment here from TiVoJerry, TiVoPony, etc.


----------



## cia_viewer

I phoned TiVo tech support this afternoon. He seemed very helpful. My IMPERFECT recollection of what he said:
He did refer me to: http://dtvfacts.com/digital-tv-converter-box/
1) Any CECB should work with an IR blaster.
2) He, personally, has not tried using any CECB.
3) Google should be very useful in determining IR codes.
4) Higher end CECBs would probably work better.
5) He, personally, might prefer Logititech (LC) (I have never heard of a CECB from them?)
6) EPG feature is not important. (TiVo provides that.)
7) After IR codes are better known and the CECBs are more available TiVo could provide more specific help.

My coupons expire May 28, also.


----------



## magnus

> 1) Any CECB should work with an IR blaster.


Not true... I've already been testing an RCA box and it does not work. Technically it works with the IR cables but Tivo would need to add program guide data for the sub channels and the ability to tune to the sub channels.



> 2) He, personally, has not tried using any CECB.


So, there's no reason to believe that he has any idea what he's talking about.



> 3) Google should be very useful in determining IR codes.


It's not a problem with the codes. The codes have nothing to do with tuning to the sub channels.



> 4) Higher end CECBs would probably work better.


Also, not true... you're just going to pay more money for them.



> 5) He, personally, might prefer Logititech (LC) (I have never heard of a CECB from them?)


Has not used one... so how is this important?


> 6) EPG feature is not important. (TiVo provides that.)


Agreed.... EPG data has no bearing on things... since Tivo handles it.



> 7) After IR codes are better known and the CECBs are more available TiVo could provide more specific help.


I think they will need to provide a software update for things to work for OTA. The IR codes aren't really going to matter... they're going to need to add the ability to get to the sub-channels and guide data for OTA w/ box.

Please look at my testing and you will see that Tivo is going to need to make some major adjustments for this to even work.


----------



## magnus

I just called Tivo and *jimavera* may be right. The CSR that I spoke to says that they are not going to do a software upgrade for this. He said that they are supposed to inform the customer that they can buy lifetime on the Tivo HD for $399 or tell them that they can use cable/satellite instead of OTA.

The core functionality of Tivo should always work. It should not be dismissed like this. I guess that I should not have been so optimistic about Tivo taking care of things.


----------



## magnus

After more testing....

The RCA box has a feature to turn off the standby mode. So, that might not be such a problem.

Also, after thinking this through a little more. Why wouldn't it be okay to do everything *server side*?? In other words Tivo could create a *new local dummy satellite provider* for each zip code (or metro area). Heck, they could probably copy the guide data from the local broadcast (the one they use for the Tivo HD) and just change the mapping (to not have the dash... just treat each channel as having to have a 3 digit number).

The channels could be mapped similar to this.

04-1 --> 041
33-1 --> 331
33-2 --> 332

The IR cables would work by sending 041 and the user could tune to the channel in the same fashion.

So, for guided setup the user could choose satellite w/ this dummy local provider. Then choose an RCA box for example. Since the codes already work with this box then there would not be a need for a software update.

I'm not sure how easy this would be to implement but it's better than doing nothing or forcing the customer to upgrade at such a high cost for lifetime.


----------



## cia_viewer

Sorry, I cannot find quotes to back this up: I think the RCA DTA800B is intended to replace the RCA DTA800 / DTA800A. The DTA800B is to be 'powered by' Broadcom. I think the new model as well as its manual are to be available in April.

For my series 2 TiVo, I would be happy to be able just to 'set up manual recording'. I had some experience doing that for a period when a software update could not be implemented and no new program schedule updates could download.


----------



## classicsat

magnus said:


> Also, after thinking this through a little more. Why wouldn't it be okay to do everything *server side*?? In other words Tivo could create a *new local dummy satellite provider* for each zip code (or metro area).
> 
> Heck, they could probably copy the guide data from the local broadcast (the one they use for the Tivo HD) and just change the mapping (to not have the dash... just treat each channel as having to have a 3 digit number).
> 
> The channels could be mapped similar to this.
> 
> 04-1 --> 041
> 33-1 --> 331
> 33-2 --> 332
> 
> The IR cables would work by sending 041 and the user could tune to the channel in the same fashion.
> 
> So, for guided setup the user could choose satellite w/ this dummy local provider. Then choose an RCA box for example. Since the codes already work with this box then there would not be a need for a software update.
> 
> I'm not sure how easy this would be to implement but it's better than doing nothing or forcing the customer to upgrade at such a high cost for lifetime.


That is rather dodgy. TiVo would never do that. They'd want to do it right and setup for antenna with box, and port the "-" guide from the S3 codebase.


----------



## magnus

I think it's better than doing nothing... which is what the CSR told me that Tivo was going to do.

Yes, this might seem a little different (dodgy) but if the cost of development is too high and you don't have the devlopers that know the S1 anymore.... then maybe this is the most efficient way to make the S1/S2 boxes work. Tivo would not need to interrupt S2 updates for the majority because the minority needed a critical update before next year.

I wonder how many Tivo boxes are really using OTA and if it would be better to do something like this server side. Add to that the fact that the majority of units that this really affects are S1/S2 boxes with lifetime.... then the number gets even smaller.

OTA and Lifetime - what is the percentage of Tivo boxes?
OTA and Monthly - not as much invested.. the user can replace that with a Tivo HD

I know a couple of my boxes show up as cable/satellite... so any statistics would be off because of the workarounds that users are currently doing.

Which is more dodgy.... a server side update or doing nothing???



classicsat said:


> That is rather dodgy. TiVo would never do that. They'd want to do it right and setup for antenna with box, and port the "-" guide from the S3 codebase.


----------



## magnus

Mine is actually a DTA800B... that's what it says on the bottom of the box (next to the serial number).



cia_viewer said:


> Sorry, I cannot find quotes to back this up: I think the RCA DTA800B is intended to replace the RCA DTA800 / DTA800A. The DTA800B is to be 'powered by' Broadcom. I think the new model as well as its manual are to be available in April.
> 
> For my series 2 TiVo, I would be happy to be able just to 'set up manual recording'. I had some experience doing that for a period when a software update could not be implemented and no new program schedule updates could download.


----------



## classicsat

magnus said:


> Which is more dodgy.... a server side update or doing nothing???


From TiVo's perspective, doing server side things.

Doing nothing means the TiVos still work as advertised.


----------



## magnus

Um, ok. 

I wonder how you have such insight.... that you would know what Tivo thinks.



classicsat said:


> Doing nothing means the TiVos still work as advertised.


----------



## annonatx

If every TIVO customer called their customer service and asked which CECB they should buy to work with their TIVO, the perhaps TIVO would see the demand and get to work on a fix?


----------



## magnus

Maybe TivoStephen or TivoPony could just stop by and say :up: or :down:



annonatx said:


> If every TIVO customer called their customer service and asked which CECB they should buy to work with their TIVO, the perhaps TIVO would see the demand and get to work on a fix?


----------



## cia_viewer

magnus said:


> Mine is actually a DTA800B... that's what it says on the bottom of the box (next to the serial number).


I guess it does NOT have 'PassThru'. Right? 
Does it have "EZAdd'? 
Do you know where to download a manual from?


----------



## magnus

According to www.dtv2009.gov it does not have pass through.
Not sure what EZAdd is.
I've not seen a link for a manual for it.


----------



## cia_viewer

EZAdd is referenced in the spreadsheet (below) to indicate the capability to 'easily add' channels to the 'automatic scan' results. Some auto-scan processes erase results of previous scans. Not good if an antenna rotor is used!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=980052&page=24

03-16-08, 09:43 PM #711 | Link
holl_ands
MS-Comm Engineer

Latest update to "CECB Feature List - mod 16Mar2008".

As usual, information is based on manufacturer/retail websites and user reports.
Your assistance in filling in the blanks and VERIFYING would be appreciated.
Attached Files

File Type: zip CECB Feature List - mod 16Mar2008.zip (11.0 KB, 90 views)


----------



## bicker

magnus said:


> I guess that I should not have been so optimistic about Tivo taking care of things.


I'll resist the temptation to say "told y'all so".


----------



## cia_viewer

For a few years I had 'this skinny and funny little cable' kicking around. I finally threw it out. A month or two later (Murphy's Law) through these forums, I discover the need for an IR Blaster to control the CECB from the TiVo.

Are they at all standardized? Where can I buy one?


----------



## classicsat

AFAIK, they aren't officially standard, but usually happen to be built the same way.

You can get replacement TiVo ones from the TiVo store, or from eBay sellers.

I made my own though, FWIW, as I got some As-Is TiVos with no accessories. Just a piece of small speaker wire on a 1/8" mono plug, tip to LED+, ring to LED-, the LED pulled from an old remote.


----------



## magnus

No problem, I never have had a reason to doubt that Tivo would do the right thing until now.

I take the fact that none of the usual Tivo reps have commented on this thread as proof that the CSR was correct. Tivo plans to do nothing... and that sucks for those of us that have OTA and a lifetime box.

Heck to me... my half a**ed (dodgy) solution is a heck of a lot better than doing nothing. At least your Tivo box would work and be able to tune to all the OTA channels.



bicker said:


> I'll resist the temptation to say "told y'all so".


----------



## wlf3701

Digital STREAM D2A1D10 or D2A1A20 DTV Converter Box w/ S-Video output is the best I've seen so for. What I wonder is why they all have yet another remote? They don't need to have one.


----------



## magnus

For the purposes of this discussion/thread... does it work with your Tivo? What is your setup?



wlf3701 said:


> Digital STREAM D2A1D10 or D2A1A20 DTV Converter Box w/ S-Video output is the best I've seen so for. What I wonder is why they all have yet another remote? They don't need to have one.


----------



## magnus

Ok, I no longer believe Tivo customer support to be that great. I just had one yell at me about how a Series 1 Tivo will still work just fine with OTA and a digital box. The lady actually hung up on me and said that I was yelling at her... I did not even raise my voice once. 

It seems that Tivo just really does not have a clue about this. The person told me that it was Sony's problem not theirs... how bogus is that?


----------



## cia_viewer

wlf3701 said:


> Digital STREAM D2A1D10 or D2A1A20 DTV Converter Box w/ S-Video output is the best I've seen so for. What I wonder is why they all have yet another remote? They don't need to have one.


Where were you able to buy them?
They seem to have 'EZ Add Station' (Channel List Editing)
Do they have 'Analog Pass'? (Indicates whether the CECB allows analog signal passthrough when not Powered on.)


----------



## magnus

Well, I ended up taking both Tivo HDs back to Best Buy. I had planned to do lifetime transfers for both but Tivo was not willing to do anything for me. 

The lady at Tivo that I spoke to said that Tivo would not be doing any kind of update for this. She also told me that I needed to speak to Sony about how to set things up for OTA and a digital converter box. She said that since Tivo did not make the box.... then it was not their problem. I tried to explain to her that it still runs the Tivo software... so it would seem that Tivo should update the software. That's when she got irate with me and told me that the only and last software version for the box would be 3.0.

It's really funny that the CSR does not even have any clue about the Tivo product though (talk to Sony my a**).

So, it seems that I will stick with the boxes and the half a** solution that is somewhat working.


----------



## magnus

If the poster does not know if it works with Tivo... then what's the point?



cia_viewer said:


> Where were you able to buy them?
> They seem to have 'EZ Add Station' (Channel List Editing)
> Do they have 'Analog Pass'? (Indicates whether the CECB allows analog signal passthrough when not Powered on.)


----------



## bicker

magnus said:


> Ok, I no longer believe Tivo customer support to be that great. I just had one yell at me about how a Series 1 Tivo will still work just fine with OTA and a digital box. The lady actually hung up on me and said that I was yelling at her... I did not even raise my voice once.


I've always enjoyed courtesy when I've been courteous to TiVo CSRs. I did get upset once, and not surprisingly, the CSR got upset as well. TiVo Tech Support, now that's a different story. Most of them have started out surly to me, and got progressively worse, proportional to how little they intended to provide me assistance. This was especially notable during the original CableCard installations, before TiVo Tech Support decided to take a stronger role advocating CableCard support by the cable companies.

Do you know which group you were talking to?



magnus said:


> It seems that Tivo just really does not have a clue about this.


Oh I think they do. They're a lot smarter than you're giving them credit for.



magnus said:


> The person told me that it was Sony's problem not theirs... how bogus is that?


Well, I think if you back a CSR or tech into a corner, refusing to accept what they've already told you, then they'll start searching for things to say to get you to pursue your issue with someone else. I think the Sony reference falls into that category.

The essential issue is that the DVR still does exactly what it was design to do, exactly what you purchased it for. What is changing is strictly and exclusively outside the DVR. The DTV transition is like moving to another country, where there is no analog broadcast, such as Germany. All the ramifications from that transition are your own personal responsibility. In this case, the only other party that has *any* responsibility is the federal government, and they are providing $40 coupons as the entirety of the compensation to citizens for this inconvenience. Beyond that, *all responsibility for adjusting to the DTV transition rests with each individual consumer*, not with any suppliers of products or services.


----------



## magnus

I have no idea what group... maybe because it was the weekend... then maybe it went to tech support and not billing. All I know is that this is the very first time I have ever had an issue with a Tivo CSR. 

The contact Sony comment at the very beginning when I first tried to explain that my box does not work with the digital converter box. 

No, I think that Tivo themselves... the company... they have a clue but the CSR that I spoke to clearly did not. I'm sure that they are looking at the number of Tivos that this will really affect and saying f*** it... we don't need to do anything. So, then it's okay for these boxes not to work.... we'll just tell them to use satellite or cable. 

As far as working as advertised.... well that just means.... I got your money and I do not care to do anything else to keep you as a customer. 

I would argue that it will not work as advertised. That when the box was purchased that it was expected that Tivo would do any necessary updates to make the box perform it's core functionality. In this case the core functionality will not work in 2009 unless you switch to cable or satellite.


----------



## classicsat

magnus said:


> As far as working as advertised.... well that just means.... I got your money and I do not care to do anything else to keep you as a customer.


They have made, and may make future upgrade offers to affected users. It is not TiVo's fault you chose not to take them up on the offers that were, in a timely manner.


> I would argue that it will not work as advertised. That when the box was purchased that it was expected that Tivo would do any necessary updates to make the box perform it's core functionality. In this case the core functionality will not work in 2009 unless you switch to cable or satellite.


The point is TiVo isn't taking away any functionality that the TiVo was originally built for (analog OTA, analog cable, analog/digital cable box, satellite box), the government and broadcasters are taking the analog OTA away, which is simply not TiVo's fault, nor responsibility to fix.

IOW, the hardware/software is still capable of analog OTA, despite it going away.


----------



## bicker

magnus said:


> No, I think that Tivo themselves... the company... they have a clue but the CSR that I spoke to clearly did not.


It's not really their job, for the reasons that you mentioned: They're supposed to support customers using the TiVo the way TiVo intends. They're not supposed to be well-versed on things that have nothing to do with TiVo, the way TiVo defines that.



magnus said:


> As far as working as advertised.... well that just means.... I got your money and I do not care to do anything else to keep you as a customer.


Again, I don't think you're giving them enough credit. They provided a product. It does what it is supposed to. Your situation has changed, and the product no longer satisfies you. That is your issue, and the government's, not _theirs _-- that is my point. TiVo has never promised software changes to adjust their software to work in new environments. I don't know where you got that impression.


----------



## magnus

I believe that they should support the core functionality... recording shows to your Tivo. I understand the fact that they are not adding new features to these boxes... that makes sense. But the core functionality of the box should be preserved.

If a new set top box were to come out for Directv that required everyone to change (Directv) boxes.... would Tivo really not chnage the code on the S2 to allow the Tivo to change the channel? It's the same principal.... the customer should be able to expect that the box at least provide the core functionality.



bicker said:


> Again, I don't think you're giving them enough credit. They provided a product. It does what it is supposed to. Your situation has changed, and the product no longer satisfies you. That is your issue, and the government's, not _theirs _-- that is my point. TiVo has never promised software changes to adjust their software to work in new environments. I don't know where you got that impression.


----------



## wmcbrine

I really think it's premature to assume they aren't going to do anything... they've got until Feb. 2009, in principle. I don't believe it would be a big deal. The only reason I see for them _not_ to do it is to push people towards the TiVo HD* -- but against that, they have to weigh customer satisfaction and loyalty.

* Oh, and to kick people off of lifetime service. :/


----------



## bicker

magnus said:


> I believe that they should support the core functionality... recording shows to your Tivo. I understand the fact that they are not adding new features to these boxes... that makes sense. But the core functionality of the box should be preserved.


I forget... did we mention the Series 1 DST issue yet in this thread? I think, if you review the facts of that situation, magnus, you'll realize that TiVo already has made it clear that they will not support what you consider the "core functionality" of the box. They will only support what they consider the "core functionality" of the box (and even then, only to the extent they choose to), and as pointed out before, the core functionality of the S2 involves *analog* OTA, not digital OTA.



magnus said:


> If a new set top box were to come out for Directv that required everyone to change (Directv) boxes.... would Tivo really not chnage the code on the S2 to allow the Tivo to change the channel? It's the same principal.... the customer should be able to expect that the box at least provide the core functionality.


I think you've just proven the opposite of what you were asserting. The DirecTiVo, the HR-10, does not support MPEG-4, so folks with the DirecTiVo cannot receive the newest HD channels from DirecTV, and eventually all channels may be MPEG-4 and the DirecTiVo will therefore simply cease to work for DirecTV service. It is up to DirecTV to address that problem, not TiVo, and it is clear that DirecTV is unwilling to do so. [Source]

They're surely not obligated to. Nor is TiVo. Please don't set yourself up for further disappointment.


----------



## magnus

Well, given the answers from Tivo CSRs... I would say that it's really not premature to assume this. The position is very clear from my talks with them. Tivo will not be supporting these digital converters and will not be making any software changes to do so. Even though as stated in my earlier posts... they could actually do this server side and save a lot of development time and the solution would even work for the S1 box (again w/ no changes to the code on the box itself).

Post#198



wmcbrine said:


> I really think it's premature to assume they aren't going to do anything... they've got until Feb. 2009, in principle. I don't believe it would be a big deal. The only reason I see for them _not_ to do it is to push people towards the TiVo HD* -- but against that, they have to weigh customer satisfaction and loyalty.
> 
> * Oh, and to kick people off of lifetime service. :/


----------



## bicker

Also, keep in mind that there have been efforts by TiVo to get lifetime subscribers to switch their lifetime subscriptions to S3 and HD boxes. They'll likely continue to make such overtures. It is up to S1 and S2 subscribers to decide when they're ready to wake up and read the writing on the wall, and make changes that will serve them best, going forward.


----------



## wmcbrine

magnus said:


> Well, given the answers from Tivo CSRs...


CSRs don't know anything. Seriously. At best, they _may_ be able to give you information about currently available products and services. They _will not_ be able to give you reliable information about what TiVo might do in the future.

Now, why they make stuff up instead of just saying, "I don't know," well, I don't know. But this seems to be a widespread disease among CSRs (not just TiVo's).


----------



## magnus

I was referring to a S2 controlling a new Directv receiver (whatever new receiver that might be)... not a DTivo.



bicker said:


> I think you've just proven the opposite of what you were asserting. The DirecTiVo, the HR-10, does not support MPEG-4, so folks with the DirecTiVo cannot receive the newest HD channels from DirecTV, and eventually all channels may be MPEG-4 and the DirecTiVo will therefore simply cease to work for DirecTV service. It is up to DirecTV to address that problem, not TiVo, and it is clear that DirecTV is unwilling to do so. [Source]
> 
> They're surely not obligated to. Nor is TiVo. Please don't set yourself up for further disappointment.


----------



## magnus

I wanted to do that... had 2 boxes in hand but they would not transfer them. I might take them up on a future offer but I'm still a little upset with the CSR that I spoke with last.

I'm still kinda reluctant to do the S2 because it's the only one that would do satellite (only on the one box though)... if I decided to use that again.

So, both of them went back to Best Buy for now.



bicker said:


> Also, keep in mind that there have been efforts by TiVo to get lifetime subscribers to switch their lifetime subscriptions to S3 and HD boxes. They'll likely continue to make such overtures. It is up to S1 and S2 subscribers to decide when they're ready to wake up and read the writing on the wall, and make changes that will serve them best, going forward.


----------



## bicker

Let's turn this around: What makes you think that there is any reason NOT to believe the CSR, in this specific case? What makes you think that TiVo would do anything to address this issue? I mean that question tangibly and literally. Not insinuation, not wishful thinking. When have they ever provided software updates specifically to address a substantial change in the external environment? The S1 DST problem is the only example I can come up with, and remember they said NO... it was only after a hacker hacked a solution that TiVo agreed to distribute the hacker's solution.


----------



## bicker

magnus said:


> I was referring to a S2 controlling a new Directv receiver (whatever new receiver that might be)... not a DTivo.


And I was talking about the DirecTiVo.


----------



## magnus

I guess I missed the point then. I'm not sure where the Directv Tivo comes into this discussion at.



bicker said:


> And I was talking about the DirecTiVo.


----------



## bicker

magnus said:


> I guess I missed the point then. I'm not sure where the Directv Tivo comes into this discussion at.


It came into this discussion here:


magnus said:


> I tried to explain to her that it still runs the Tivo software... so it would seem that Tivo should update the software.


The implication that because it runs TiVo software that TiVo should update it is fallacious. That was the point.


----------



## magnus

Oh, sorry. I just thought that because it was a SA unit not a Directv box that Tivo would be responsible for updating the software. I had no idea that Sony would ever update the software.



bicker said:


> It came into this discussion here:The implication that because it runs TiVo software that TiVo should update it is fallacious. That was the point.


----------



## bicker

Well, hopefully that is cleared up. It is always best to rely solely on the explicit promises made to us, rather than on what we'd _hope _our suppliers would provide us.


----------



## magnus

Yep, I'll just wait for Tivo to have another lifetime transfer offer. I still did not like the attitude of the CSR but hopefully that's the only bad one I'll ever get. 



bicker said:


> Well, hopefully that is cleared up. It is always best to rely solely on the explicit promises made to us, rather than on what we'd _hope _our suppliers would provide us.


----------



## cia_viewer

cia_viewer said:


> For a few years I had 'this skinny and funny little cable' kicking around. I finally threw it out. A month or two later (Murphy's Law) through these forums, I discover the need for an IR Blaster to control the CECB from the TiVo.
> 
> Are they at all standardized? Where can I buy one?


I talked to someone at a local Best Buy, today:
They have a Speaker Craft 'IR Emitter' for about $14. This sounds like it will do the job.


----------



## magnus

Or why not just buy one of these from Tivo.

_IR Control Cable

Replacement IR Control Cable for use with your TiVo Recorder and most cable set-top boxes or satellite receivers._

https://www3.tivo.com/store/accessories.do#A00036



cia_viewer said:


> I talked to someone at a local Best Buy, today:
> They have a Speaker Craft 'IR Emitter' for about $14. This sounds like it will do the job.


----------



## cia_viewer

I wonder if we can come up with the properties that are critical in a CECB (Converter Box) to get an Analog TiVo DVR recording for Digital OTA TV? 
(At least manual recording by channel and time start, stop)

1) Analog Pass: Indicates whether the CECB allows analog signal passthrough when not Powered on. (to continue recording analog programs before Feb 2009)

2) EZ Add stations (Supplement results of scan e.g.: antenna rotor)

3) Some? (defined???) capability to turn on and control CECB synchronized with recording schedule.

4) ...?

I hope that we can, collectively, build up this list of CECB features that are critical to TiVo DVR recording. I suppose there may be differences between series 2 and series 3 that effect this. I do not know. I certainly do not know enough to 'build out' this list!


----------



## cia_viewer

magnus said:


> Or why not just buy one of these from Tivo.
> 
> _IR Control Cable
> 
> Replacement IR Control Cable for use with your TiVo Recorder and most cable set-top boxes or satellite receivers._
> 
> https://www3.tivo.com/store/accessories.do#A00036


OH! I phoned the store where I recently bought my TiVo HD DVR. Thank you!


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## ZeoTiVo

cia_viewer said:


> I suppose there may be differences between series 2 and series 3 that effect this.


yah, series 3 can use a digital antenna right now and not even notice the transition date when it happens


----------



## classicsat

cia_viewer said:


> I wonder if we can come up with the properties that are critical in a CECB (Converter Box) to get an Analog TiVo DVR recording for Digital OTA TV?


As far as TiVo is concerned, it only needs A/V out and IR control. That is if TiVo does incorporate digital OTA box support.


> (At least manual recording by channel and time start, stop)
> 
> 1) Analog Pass: Indicates whether the CECB allows analog signal passthrough when not Powered on. (to continue recording analog programs before Feb 2009)


If that can be set by timer.


> 2) EZ Add stations (Supplement results of scan e.g.: antenna rotor)
> 
> 3) Some? (defined???) capability to turn on and control CECB synchronized with recording schedule.


If you mean if TiVo were not to chose to support digital OTA boxes, said boxes would have to support a good number of timers.


----------



## dark4night

I just got off the phone with Will from tier 2 Tivo support. We were troubleshooting some Series 2 to Tivo HD show transfer issues and I slipped in some questions about Series 2 supporting digital converter boxes. He said it is not official but a "software update to control digitial converter boxes is being worked on." He said that Tivo will "not leave their Series 2 customers out in the cold." He even used the example that the first Series 3 Tivos could not transfer shows over the network. Tivo listened to their customers and fixed the issue. So he basically said hang on while they work on the issue. Also, they have not been able to keep up with Forums and so it has been difficult to battle customer's concerns which are compound as more people post.

Hope that helps.

-D


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## magnus

I'll believe it when I hear it from Tivo. Since I've already heard from several representatives that Tivo will not be doing this update... I'll be very skeptical till then.


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## MighTiVo

That sounds great, so lets get a post over here and a beta program started for testing!


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## cia_viewer

dark4night said:


> I just got off the phone with Will from tier 2 Tivo support. We were troubleshooting some Series 2 to Tivo HD show transfer issues ...
> -D


It is possible to transfer shows from TiVo 2 to TiVo HD?!?

We have a couple of shows recorded on our TiVo 2 (ModlNo: TCD240040).
It would be a lot more convenient to watch them with our new TiVo HD.

How is a transfer done?


----------



## cia_viewer

It is possible or very likely I do not understand the 'Analog Pass Through'. I have assumed that it meant 'channel 6' would pass through the 'powered off' CECB and into the TiVo as channel 6, not as an anonymous channel (3/4).


----------



## rodbac

> It is possible to transfer shows from TiVo 2 to TiVo HD?!?


Of course it is. I do it nearly every day.

I haven't read the thread- is this something considered impossible?


----------



## MrPhilo

About Will knowing the scoop. I think Tivo's silence on the matter officially (CSRs are not official spokespeople) most likely means they haven't decided what to do yet. They already support the digital channels in the back end for the S3s and HDs, so that part is done - just have to get the S2 to talk to that part (don't know how the architecture works), then get the S2 to talk to the CECB. That last part seems to me to be the hard part - lots of boxes and combinations, and they haven't been available for very long. Everything else they've done already. And box control they already do - these are just new boxes that act differently.

But it is still time and money to keep a dwindling number of existing customers happy, when they'd love to convert them to a newer box and a longer subscription time. I know I'd be happier about switching to a new tivo in the future if they do handle the CECBs. (In this case happier= much more likely to just get a new TiVo instead of researching alternatives)

So my plan is to wait until a) Tivo says what they'll do and which box to get or b) the coupons start to run low, and hope Tivo does something in the 90 days I have to get a box (or that I guess correctly about which one to get).


----------



## cia_viewer

classicsat said:


> As far as TiVo is concerned, it only needs A/V out and IR control. That is if TiVo does incorporate digital OTA box support.
> 
> If that can be set by timer.
> 
> If you mean if TiVo were not to chose to support digital OTA boxes, said boxes would have to support a good number of timers.


Does anyone recognize within the available CECBs manufacturers or chipsets that TiVo has already created IR interfaces for. (e.g.: CECB 'zwq' should be easy for TiVo to control with an IR Blaster because they already can control box 'xwz' made by the same manufacturer.)

I know this forum, collectively, has a lot more wisdom than I!

(I may be overly anxious because my coupons expire 28 May.)


----------



## cia_viewer

rodbac said:


> Of course it is. I do it nearly every day.
> 
> I haven't read the thread- is this something considered impossible?


My learning curve!

Where do I start. Is it a transfer over USB cable?


----------



## carroca

cia_viewer said:


> Where do I start. Is it a transfer over USB cable?


It's called Multi-Room Viewing (MRV) and it transfers recordings from one TiVo to another over a wired or wireless home network. Look here: http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/domore/multiroomviewing/index.html


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## bicker

MrPhilo said:


> I know I'd be happier about switching to a new tivo in the future if they do handle the CECBs.


I don't see any reason to believe that perspective is widely held far beyond the bounds of the online community.


----------



## magnus

Always the pessimist.... I agree.



bicker said:


> I don't see any reason to believe that perspective is widely held far beyond the bounds of the online community.


----------



## MighTiVo

bicker said:


> I don't see any reason to believe that perspective is widely held far beyond the bounds of the online community.


Why not?
It allows an easy less painful way to walk into the future without creating an opportunity for someone to switch to a competitive platform.

Right now everyone will be pushing digital tuners to work with older TVs as we cut off analog.

Forcing the obsolesce prematurely will likely drive users to investigate other platforms.

To the contrary, members here in the forum may even come up with some unsupported solution...

If nothing else an ATSC tuner connected to a PC running DVR software and saving programs to a directory, converting those programs to a compatible format and publishing with TiVo desktop.

Non forum members are the ones that need an easy to use solution that works just like a cable box or satellite tuner does today.


----------



## magnus

Done.



MighTiVo said:


> To the contrary, members here in the forum may even come up with some unsupported solution...


----------



## MrPhilo

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by MrPhilo View Post
> I know I'd be happier about switching to a new tivo in the future if they do handle the CECBs.
> I don't see any reason to believe that perspective is widely held far beyond the bounds of the online community.


I think it is a reasonable generalized attitude. If people have a good experience and are treated well by a company (eg, Tivo adds support to S2s for CECBs), then I am more like to give repeat business to that company and to recommend it to others. But if they don't, or worse, they treat me badly (if they cut off my lifetime subs because I can't get analog signals OTA; or like the custom cabinet maker who did shoddy work for me - I'll never go back, and I tell people not to buy from him). A company treats you right and does extra things that they don't have to, you are more likely to do repeat business with.

I'm not sure I expressed my sentiment clearly in the first place, but the idea is that someday, my current S2 will die, and I'll need to replace it. If TiVo has treated me well, I'm going with what I know, rather than checking out other options.


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## bicker

MighTiVo said:


> Why not?


Because that issue is a too low level of a detail for most of those folks to concern themselves about.


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## bicker

MrPhilo said:


> I'm not sure I expressed my sentiment clearly in the first place, but the idea is that someday, my current S2 will die, and I'll need to replace it. If TiVo has treated me well, I'm going with what I know, rather than checking out other options.


Customer loyalty has substantially dropped in value in the consumer sector, for the past thirty years or so. Customers now almost always make their purchasing decisions based on price, rather than loyalty to a specific supplier. This was one of the reasons I got out of that discipline -- trying to help companies capitalize on customer loyalty, when there simply wasn't anything to capitalize on, was a losing proposition.


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## MighTiVo

bicker said:


> Customer loyalty has substantially dropped in value in the consumer sector, for the past thirty years or so. Customers now almost always make their purchasing decisions based on price, rather than loyalty to a specific supplier. This was one of the reasons I got out of that discipline -- trying to help companies capitalize on customer loyalty, when there simply wasn't anything to capitalize on, was a losing proposition.


TiVo never has been the cheapest product, I have only seen them compete on price briefly during a ReplayTV subscription included/not included price comparison period.

Tivo is one of those sticky products, like Ipod that can hold on to a customer when they provide a positive user experience even though they are not necessarily the cheapest or even the most capable product in the market.

Unfortunately, this is especially true when more than one TiVo is used at a time since there is still no open MRV standard.


----------



## classicsat

cia_viewer said:


> Does anyone recognize within the available CECBs manufacturers or chipsets that TiVo has already created IR interfaces for. (e.g.: CECB 'zwq' should be easy for TiVo to control with an IR Blaster because they already can control box 'xwz' made by the same manufacturer.)
> 
> I know this forum, collectively, has a lot more wisdom than I!
> 
> (I may be overly anxious because my coupons expire 28 May.)


Officially TiVo does not have CECB support at all.
Unofficially, they do have some IR codes which to a certain degree can change channels on some CECBs.

Read back in this thread. I believe LG and RCA were some. I could be wrong.

FWIW, I heard that most of the CECBs work off an LG chip.


----------



## classicsat

MrPhilo said:


> if they cut off my lifetime subs because I can't get analog signals OTA


They won't do that. Just it wouldn't work anymore as it was, if you don't proactively do something about you configuration to get an available source your TiVo will work with; take TiVo up on a transfer offer to an ATSC capable unit; or sell your unit so someone that can make use of its available facilities, and make other arrangements for your own ATSC viewing/recording needs.


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## bicker

MighTiVo said:


> TiVo never has been the cheapest product, I have only seen them compete on price briefly during a ReplayTV subscription included/not included price comparison period.


You must have missed the time they supplanted the $799 TiVo S3 with the $299 TiVo HD.

"Cheap" is relative, and also irrelevant to the message you replied to.



MighTiVo said:


> Tivo is one of those sticky products


No it isn't. TiVo isn't profitable. iPod is. They're not in the same league.


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## MrPhilo

@Bicker: I see why you have your screenname... 

Profit has nothing to do with "product stickiness". Stickiness is how devoted the customers are to a product. I think you are exaggerating the extent that people are devoted customers anymore. Certain industries and locations have lost that, but try selling a Ford to my cousins, who are Chevy boys.

@classicsat:
You're right, they won't cut me off - that would take work on their part. I think I was thinking worst case at that point.


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## Adam1115

bicker said:


> You must have missed the time they supplanted the $799 TiVo S3 with the $299 TiVo HD. .


$299 is VERY cheap for the HD, considering what you get. It isn't much more than a standalone ATSC HD tuner. And they can be had for as little as $199.

My S3 was a bargain at $679.


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## cia_viewer

carroca said:


> It's called Multi-Room Viewing (MRV) and it transfers recordings from one TiVo to another over a wired or wireless home network. Look here: http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/domore/multiroomviewing/index.html


I just got off the phone with TiVo. I have installed TiVo DeskTop on one of my PCs and plugged our TiVo HD into our LAN. I mentioned that I wanted to leave all TiVo updates handled by phone. When it came out that our LAN uses Ethernet Switches. They said 'we do not do Switches, only Routers'. I guess TiVo does not want to be assigned an IP Address, they pick their own (DHCP).

It seems it would be possible to transfer from TiVo to TiVo with a crossover cable. I have one but it is not long enough. I would also need to buy an USB - EtherNet adapter for our TiVo S2.

I think maybe this feature is not worth it. Thank you.


----------



## bicker

MrPhilo said:


> Profit has nothing to do with "product stickiness".


I disagree. If you're going to refer to controversial concepts, then expect us each to interpret them as we wish.


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## bicker

Adam1115 said:


> $299 is VERY cheap for the HD, considering what you get. It isn't much more than a standalone ATSC HD tuner. And they can be had for as little as $199.


So what you're saying is that folks with S2s shouldn't have any concern about buying a new TiVo HD rather than seeking to use a CECB with their old S2. Yes, I agree.


----------



## rainbow

classicsat said:


> take TiVo up on a transfer offer to an ATSC capable unit; .....


Is there a new offer out there right now?


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## rodbac

> I disagree. If you're going to refer to controversial concepts, then expect us each to interpret them as we wish.


???

The term refers to a specific trait of a product- we can debate whether a product is actually "sticky" or not, or to what degree, but that doesn't mean we're free to redefine it to mean whatever strikes our fancy.


----------



## bicker

Actually it does. In reality, stickiness, in this context, actually only means that the product is likely to hold onto a customer _regardless_ of change. It has nothing to do with whether the customer is satisfied by environmental changes or product enhancements or not. It is a form of customer loyalty, which as I already mentioned, is a relic of the past in the consumer marketplace.


----------



## rodbac

bicker said:


> Actually it does. In reality, stickiness, in this context, actually only means that the product is likely to hold onto a customer _regardless_ of change. It has nothing to do with whether the customer is satisfied by environmental changes or product enhancements or not. It is a form of customer loyalty, which as I already mentioned, is a relic of the past in the consumer marketplace.


Well, not to belabor the tangent, but it's not really a _form_ of customer loyalty, but rather a trait that leads to it. You don't have "sticky" loyalty and non-sticky loyalty- you end up with loyalty due to the product being "sticky".

Anyway, it may very well be much less common (I don't know), but that's irrelevant to the question of whether a product is "sticky" or not, which in turn is completely independent of whether it's profitable or not.


----------



## MrPhilo

I'm with Rodbac - sticky and profit are not directly linked. If you have a sticky product (and I've been blurring sticky product vs sticky company), you have an easier time being profitable, but it is not automatic - you still have to do well on the business side.

I'm curious what you consider Apple and its fans. For the record, I think TiVo has a certain stickiness too - before we had one, we were not really interested, but now, we would not enjoy tv without one.


----------



## bicker

I cannot believe folks are comparing Apple and TiVo. <shaking head> I guess we're simply not talking the same language.


----------



## rodbac

Why is it so bewildering that the "stickiness" of a Tivo is comparable to the "stickiness" of an iPod?

That doesn't require Tivo, Inc. to be as profitable as Apple or anything like that. You're either wildly overthinking it or fundamentally misunderstanding.


----------



## bicker

Or we simply disagree. I think you're totally off-the-wall with your over-confidence in TiVo. That's your prerogative, of course.


----------



## rodbac

> Or we simply disagree.


Yeah, could be- would we also have to agree to disagree if I said "No, a Tivo is NOT sticky like an iPod because iPods come in white and Tivos don't"?



> I think you're totally off-the-wall with your over-confidence in TiVo.


???


----------



## thorpemark

I'm with rodbac and encourage his over-confidence.

Tivo is better at what it does than Apple is at what it does.

Apple sells itself better. But you can find Ipod and Iphone like products that work just as well (or better) than the Apple products... especially when you factor in price. This is not true for Tivo. Some come close, but none match.

Apple sells itself better so that the Apple "people" will insist they have the best of everything. It is the Apple-people's over-confidence that should come under scrutiny.

ON-TOPIC: We should be able to use these coupons toward ANYTHING that gets you digital broadcast and can display it on an old TV.. TivoHD for example... heck, why not a new TV.. also solves the issue.


----------



## Adam1115

bicker said:


> So what you're saying is that folks with S2s shouldn't have any concern about buying a new TiVo HD rather than seeking to use a CECB with their old S2. Yes, I agree.


No. I didn't say anything of the sort.

But, yes, a TiVo HD is an alternative for OTA users and not a bad one....


----------



## ZeoTiVo

bicker said:


> Actually it does. In reality, stickiness, in this context, actually only means that the product is likely to hold onto a customer _regardless_ of change. .


and the people holding onto S2(before S3 options) regardless of changes on the HD front or those with s2 wanting something to fix their "no more analog OTA" issue is not sticky??

Or TiVo hanging in there as a company despite many, many rough financial quarters is not sticky enough for you??


----------



## classicsat

thorpemark said:


> ON-TOPIC: We should be able to use these coupons toward ANYTHING that gets you digital broadcast and can display it on an old TV.. TivoHD for example... heck, why not a new TV.. also solves the issue.


No we shoudn't. The initial purpose of the CECB program was to provide affordable *basic* convertor boxes that would do no more than keep older TVs in service, for lower income households, that receive their TV only from antenna,
not a subsidy for relatively premium HD gear. It is bad enough that anybody, for now, is being allowed to get coupons.


----------



## atmuscarella

I will have to admit sometimes the things that people debate here give me great amusement. The issue with what the term "stickiness" means is one of those. The way everyone is trying to use the word "stickiness" is nothing more than commercial slang. It has nothing to do with the dictionary meaning of stickiness. So given that it is nothing more than a slang term I guess it can mean anything you want it to. 

Thanks,


----------



## rodbac

> So given that it is nothing more than a slang term I guess it can mean anything you want it to.


Er, just because it's a slang term doesn't mean the word has no meaning.

Sure, you can argue until you're blue in the face that "stickiness" refers to the color of a product or whatever other bizarre meaning you want, but that doesn't change what the term actually means.

In this case, it's well-known that the word refers to a product's tendency to retain customers, which is obviously an independent trait of a number of other traits of the product, including its profitability (and color, etc).

That said, if someone wants to give everyone their personal definition, we can have a meaningful discussion about how profits affect it. Outside of that, there is nothing to discuss, really.

In other words, if the term "sticky" is throwing you off, don't use it and instead just say "People tend to stick with Tivos once they've bought one, just like they do with iPods".

Calling them both "sticky" is easier, though.


----------



## bicker

atmuscarella said:


> I will have to admit sometimes the things that people debate here give me great amusement. The issue with what the term "stickiness" means is one of those. The way everyone is trying to use the word "stickiness" is nothing more than commercial slang. It has nothing to do with the dictionary meaning of stickiness. So given that it is nothing more than a slang term I guess it can mean anything you want it to.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

atmuscarella said:


> So given that it is nothing more than a slang term I guess it can mean anything you want it to.


cool


----------



## Adam1115

classicsat said:


> No we shoudn't. The initial purpose of the CECB program was to provide affordable *basic* convertor boxes that would do no more than keep older TVs in service, for lower income households, that receive their TV only from antenna,
> not a subsidy for relatively premium HD gear. It is bad enough that anybody, for now, is being allowed to get coupons.


Why is it bad? The FCC made BILLIONS auctioning off spectrum to make this change, why should the consumer foot the entire bill while the government profits?


----------



## rodbac

Adam1115 said:


> Why is it bad? The FCC made BILLIONS auctioning off spectrum to make this change, why should the consumer foot the entire bill while the government profits?


Because that money is effectively a big, one-time tax paid only by the purchaser.

"The government" making billions is you and me making billions, and it's pretty easy to argue there are better ways to spend our money than putting high-end HD equipment in everyone's living room.


----------



## MickeS

Here's what I think TiVo should do: tell ALL the Series 1 (OTA or not) and Series 2 customers that those who only use OTA (TiVo seems to have that info, as the channel line-up shows online) that they will offer a $40 discount (same as the government discount) and 2 years free service to those who upgrade to a TiVoHD. Those who have lifetime on the old TiVo units will be allowed to transfer that LT free of charge to a new TiVoHD.

Something like that at least, it would make the most sense to me (note, I would not be eligible, as my Series 2 doesn't use the OTA line-up ).


----------



## Adam1115

rodbac said:


> Because that money is effectively a big, one-time tax paid only by the purchaser.
> 
> "The government" making billions is you and me making billions, and it's pretty easy to argue there are better ways to spend our money than putting high-end HD equipment in everyone's living room.


Interesting.

So now we've given the FCC authority to tax us without representation from Congress?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Adam1115 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> So now we've given the FCC authority to tax us without representation from Congress?


umm, Congress authorized the whole thing and controls the money received.

PS - If someone wants a TiVo HD in their living room and 40$ is a deal breaker then they have better things to spend thier money on


----------



## rodbac

> So now we've given the FCC authority to tax us without representation from Congress?


Even if you ignore what Zeo said (which you shouldn't), when it's voluntary, yes, of course we have.

You're *never* limited in how much money you give the government, you know- you can send in as much as you want.


----------



## bicker

rodbac said:


> ... it's pretty easy to argue there are better ways to spend our money than putting high-end HD equipment in everyone's living room.


Since we disagree so often, and so thoroughly on so many things, I thought it was important to highlight when you say something I agree with 100%.


----------



## rodbac

> Since we disagree so often, and so thoroughly on so many things, I thought it was important to highlight when you say something I agree with 100%.


 I don't do that often enough and should. I (and I guess many others) tend to only post when I have a contention.


----------



## cia_viewer

cia_viewer said:


> I wonder if we can come up with the properties that are critical in a CECB (Converter Box) to get an Analog TiVo DVR recording for Digital OTA TV?
> (At least manual recording by channel and time start, stop)
> 
> 1) Analog Pass: Indicates whether the CECB allows analog signal passthrough when not Powered on. (to continue recording analog programs before Feb 2009)
> 
> 2) EZ Add stations (Supplement results of scan e.g.: antenna rotor)
> 
> 3) Some? (defined???) capability to turn on and control CECB synchronized with recording schedule.
> 
> 4) ...?
> 
> I hope that we can, collectively, build up this list of CECB features that are critical to TiVo DVR recording. ... I certainly do not know enough to 'build out' this list!


Are there any more ideas on this? My meter is running (28 May) and I do not feel I know enough to pick my 'prize'.


----------



## cia_viewer

I wonder if anyone has bought and installed a CECB, then was successful with TiVo Technical Support's help getting the system running?
e.g.: recording scheduled programs from a digital TV broadcast on their TiVo S2 DVR.

That is my goal. I do not care if I must use the 'manual record menu' (specify channel, date, start time, end time).


----------



## magnus

Hello?!?


----------



## steve614

MickeS said:


> ... Those who have lifetime on the old TiVo units will be allowed to transfer that LT free of charge to a new TiVo.


I'd jump on that. Won't happen though.
They'll at least charge $199 and since Tivo assumes lifetime to last 4 - 4.5 years I wouldn't qualify until the end of 2009 or 2010! 

That doesn't rule out a ''special'' promomtion, as I predict Tivo will do _something_ just before next Christmas.
Like, "Hurry, get a TivoHD before the analog cutoff".


----------



## classicsat

Read magnus' postings. They supposedly got an RCA box working in satellite box mode with some satellite guide data.

TiVo support won't help with CECBs, since they are officially not supported.


----------



## cia_viewer

magnus said:


> According to www.dtv2009.gov it does not have pass through.
> Not sure what EZAdd is.
> I've not seen a link for a manual for it.


1) Can you successfully record Analog Stations with DTA800B powered off?
2) Can you successfully record Analog Stations with DTA800B powered on?
3) Can you easily add channels not included in original scan?
4) Can you easily remove then 're-add' channels?

5) Was TiVo support needed to get this working or is there some preprogrammed option available to do it? If existing option works for RCA DTA800B what was it, please?


----------



## magnus

RCA DTA800 w/ cable (only for the main channels - no sub channels). Satellite does not work but would work in the method I explained in earlier posts.



classicsat said:


> Read magnus' postings. They supposedly got an RCA box working in satellite box mode with some satellite guide data.
> 
> TiVo support won't help with CECBs, since they are officially not supported.


----------



## magnus

Yes, it works for the digital channels (main channels - no sub channels).

The box does not have support for analog channels.
1) Cannot record anything with it turned off. You'll need to set the DTA800 to never go into standby (I could never get the Tivo to wake it up).
2) It does not record analog channels (does not tune to them).
3) Yes, seems like you can just re-scan.
4) Yes, you can effectively skip the channel then add it back.
5) There is no Tivo support. They were not helpful at all. Told me to get satellite or cable.

Re-do guided setup and choose cable w/ RCA box. But you'll need to find a channel listing that closely matches your locals. Remember that this will only get the main channels and not the sub channels (Tivo WILL need to provide some sort of support for that to work).



cia_viewer said:


> 1) Can you successfully record Analog Stations with DTA800B powered off?
> 2) Can you successfully record Analog Stations with DTA800B powered on?
> 3) Can you easily add channels not included in original scan?
> 4) Can you easily remove then 're-add' channels?
> 
> 5) Was TiVo support needed to get this working or is there some preprogrammed option available to do it? If existing option works for RCA DTA800B what was it, please?


----------



## larkor

You can record analog channels if you choose satellite with antenna and split the antenna input to the tivo and coverter. Lockout all the analog stations except the ones you want.


----------



## magnus

But you won't be able to use the digital converter box with it then because you must choose cable for this to work. The 3 digit codes are seen as....

004 --> 00-4 (where the desired effect is for the Tivo to change the box to channel 04).



larkor said:


> You can record analog channels if you choose satellite with antenna and split the antenna input to the tivo and coverter. Lockout all the analog stations except the ones you want.


----------



## cia_viewer

magnus said:


> Yes, it works for the digital channels (main channels - no sub channels).
> 
> The box does not have support for analog channels.
> 1) Cannot record anything with it turned off. You'll need to set the DTA800 to never go into standby (I could never get the Tivo to wake it up).
> 2) It does not record analog channels (does not tune to them).
> 3) Yes, seems like you can just re-scan.
> 4) Yes, you can effectively skip the channel then add it back.
> 5) There is no Tivo support. They were not helpful at all. Told me to get satellite or cable.
> 
> Re-do guided setup and choose cable w/ RCA box. But you'll need to find a channel listing that closely matches your locals. Remember that this will only get the main channels and not the sub channels (Tivo WILL need to provide some sort of support for that to work).


Thank you.

I live north of Denver.
2) Quite discouraging. At this point almost all recording I do is from OTA Analog. I can only receive four DTV channels (Two in English).
3) 'just re-scan' Does this mean 'erase all previous scan results' and do an all new just re-scan? OR select a channel and 'just re-scan' for its 'signal?

I guess I should keep looking for a better CECB, especially in light some negative comments about the RCA DTA-800...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=980052&page=31

#902 :
RCA - DTA-800
? 3 units purchased on-line from Plano Tx Walmart
? Fails taboo channel rejection

I do not understand 'taboo channel rejection' and whether it pertains to OTA or not.
Some others claimed poor reception with the RCA DTA-800B

Again, Thank you.


----------



## magnus

FYI, if anyone was wondering if Tivo is working on support for the digital converters. So, contrary to what the CSRs are saying.... Tivo might provide some support for these boxes.

Tivo Pony's response to OTA digital tuner support


----------



## fallingwater

Hi gang;

I received two Converter Box Coupons, good through May 31.

Not surprisingly none of the approved Converter Boxes appears to receive unscrambled QAM. (Please clue me if I'm wrong!)

I've got too much electronic junque as it is, including several ATSC/QAM tuner boxes.

If you need a Converter Box Coupon, send me a PM. Totally free!


----------



## gordonzo

http://www.tivo.com/promo/bluemoon.html

anyone seen this promo?
is it worth it?
will it recieve dtv channels?


----------



## alansh

The purpose of the coupon program is so that existing analog TV owners who only get OTA stations won't have a boat anchor next February. So the eligable boxes won't do QAM or hi-def.


----------



## wmcbrine

fallingwater said:


> If you need a Converter Box Coupon, send me a PM. Totally free!


I hate to tell you, but the coupons are non-transferrable.

Instead of giving away the coupons, you could buy a couple of boxes and sell or give them away.


----------



## fallingwater

alansh said:


> The purpose of the coupon program is so that existing analog TV owners who only get OTA stations won't have a boat anchor next February. So the eligible boxes won't do QAM or hi-def.


When the coupon program first began at least one converter box spec. indicated QAM capability. Knowing the reason for the program and the need to keep costs down it's not surprising to see that QAM isn't an option.



wmcbrine said:


> I hate to tell you, but the coupons are non-transferrable.
> 
> Instead of giving away the coupons, you could buy a couple of boxes and sell or give them away.


Here's what the Converter Box FAQ's say:

https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx

_11.Are nursing homes, group homes and other institutions eligible for coupons? Applicants must meet the Census definition of a household as consisting of all persons who currently occupy a house, apartment, mobile home, group of rooms, or single room that is occupied as separate living quarters and has a separate U.S. postal address. A household is defined as separate living quarters with a separate U.S. Postal address. This definition includes all households located in U.S. Territories, but does not include Post Office Boxes.
12.Can I apply for someone who is unable to apply for themselves, such as an elderly parent? Yes, but you will need to use their home address which will be validated for eligibility. Only two coupons can be used per U.S. household address, and the coupons are intended for the resident of that household.
13.What if I receive my mail at a Post Office Box? The government can mail coupons to Post Office boxes in areas without home mail delivery. Post Office boxes will be accepted only for households on Indian reservations, Alaskan Native villages and other rural areas. The government may request additional information to validate the physical location of these households. _

"Only two coupons can be used per U.S. household address, and the coupons are intended for the resident of that household." The coupons look like credit cards. There is no information on a coupon which identifies the household which applied for it. On the back of a coupon is the statement; "It is illegal to sell, duplicate or tamper with this coupon."

I've got two coupons good through May 31. If a Forum member qualifies for a coupon (on your honor) but failed to apply in time, and can use it, send me a PM and we'll go from there.


----------



## steve614

magnus said:


> FYI, if anyone was wondering if Tivo is working on support for the digital converters. So, contrary to what the CSRs are saying.... Tivo might provide some support for these boxes.
> 
> Tivo Pony's response to OTA digital tuner support


That's great and all, and I really appreciate Tivo for acknowleging ...
but what we REALLY need to know is which boxes we need to look at getting before our coupons expire.


----------



## magnus

Yep, and all I can say is that the RCA DTA800 works (for the most part) with my S2 Tivo.

So, unless others post their test results here then I would suggest getting one of those boxes. If you get close to the expiration date and Tivo does not give a word on which boxes they will support.



steve614 said:


> That's great and all, and I really appreciate Tivo for acknowleging ...
> but what we REALLY need to know is which boxes we need to look at getting before our coupons expire.


----------



## wmcbrine

fallingwater said:


> There is no information on a coupon which identifies the household which applied for it.


Nothing in plain text, but there's a number which could index a database.



> _If a Forum member qualifies for a coupon (on your honor) but failed to apply in time_


You can still apply right now.


----------



## fallingwater

wmcbrine said:


> Nothing in plain text, but there's a number which could index a database.


Could? Well I suppose the Converter Police could haul me off.



> You can still apply right now.


https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx
The website states March 31 as the deadline.

If no one wants 'em I'll drop 'em off at the local BB or CC by the box displays.


----------



## wmcbrine

fallingwater said:


> The website states March 31 as the deadline.


2009.


----------



## fallingwater

wmcbrine said:


> 2009.


Curses (expletive deleted), I'm stupid, you're right!

OK, I'm off to BB or CC!

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/status.html

According to the above link less than half the initial batch of 22.25 million coupons have been applied for. Then, if needed, there would be 11.25 million more for OTA only folks.


----------



## swahl

I have a series 1 w/ lifetime, and use over the air programming exclusively. Reading some other threads, in particular ones that mention that series 2+ use new development tools unavailable to series 1 (screen design, in particular; I believe the discussion on folders in now showing may be pertinent), I am even less hopeful that a CECB software update option will be available for series 1, even if it does eventually show for series 2.

Any reason I can't A) purchase a converter box, B) set up TiVo as if I'm connected to cable with a box, deleting / marking as unwatched all channels not available over the air, and C) using a device to translate from the channel numbers TiVo tries to send to the cable box to channel numbers that the converter box understands?

For the translation device, I could use an old PC running linux with LIRC, or even some MS-DOS equivalent. Interpret the incoming IR signals (probably hardwired from the IR emitter output of the TiVo), go to a translation table, and output the IR signals necessary to set the converter box to the correct channel.

What are the pitfalls any of you can see?


----------



## classicsat

You could do that, with some success or use an IR translator for full suppot.

IMO, a PC is a little "too much" for the task. If I were in the situation, I'd either take the next level and have the PC be my DVR, or bould a small non-PC microcontroller board to translate for me.


----------



## SMWinnie

Random data point: I applied for my coupons on January 4th and they arrived today, good through the end of June.

Not planning to use them with my standalone 540x - these are for my parents.


----------



## swahl

classicsat said:


> You could do that, with some success or use an IR translator for full suppot.
> 
> IMO, a PC is a little "too much" for the task. If I were in the situation, I'd either take the next level and have the PC be my DVR, or bould a small non-PC microcontroller board to translate for me.


Normally I'd agree, esp. wrt the microcontroller. But any significant amount of funds could be spent toward a TivoHD or series 2, although I'd lose the lifetime subscription.

On the cheap -- disregarding cost of electricity  -- I have a few PC carcases around, and even a linux machine already running next to my tivo. It'd at least make a good proof of concept before diving into development of a smaller solution.

Oh, and thanks for the pointer to the phrase "ir translator". I plug that into Google and find that somebody has already had some success doing something similar for a panasonic DVR.


----------



## TiVoJedi

fallingwater said:


> Could? Well I suppose the Converter Police could haul me off.
> 
> https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx
> The website states March 31 as the deadline.
> 
> If no one wants 'em I'll drop 'em off at the local BB or CC by the box displays.


I sent you a PM. I would definitely like one of them as the government fell short and the postal service has failed to deliver mine (to me anyway) (my reference number is three thousand, five hundred, XX, one of the first applicants before the sun even came up on 1/1/08).

The program rules changed and these are legally transferable now:
http://ntiadtv.custhelp.com/cgi-bin...y5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1


----------



## stahta01

swahl said:


> Normally I'd agree, esp. wrt the microcontroller. But any significant amount of funds could be spent toward a TivoHD or series 2, although I'd lose the lifetime subscription.
> 
> On the cheap -- disregarding cost of electricity  -- I have a few PC carcases around, and even a linux machine already running next to my tivo. It'd at least make a good proof of concept before diving into development of a smaller solution.
> 
> Oh, and thanks for the pointer to the phrase "ir translator". I plug that into Google and find that somebody has already had some success doing something similar for a panasonic DVR.


I was just today thinking if I could build an "IR Translator" to make my yet to be determined CECB box work with my TiVo.

The design at http://bvwelch.com/projects/ir2.htm is slightly different than I was planing, it looks to be using lower priced components than what I knew existed.

I think that I will try to create one myself.

Tim S


----------



## magnus

FYI, more info from Tivo on OTA support.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=375578&page=9&p=6197732


----------



## nachogy

magnus said:


> Yep, and all I can say is that the RCA DTA800 works (for the most part) with my S2 Tivo.
> 
> So, unless others post their test results here then I would suggest getting one of those boxes. If you get close to the expiration date and Tivo does not give a word on which boxes they will support.


I saw your post on the RCA DTA800. I got that converter box and tried hooking it up to HUMAX S2. It did not work. I tried telling it that it was a cable box, the picture came through but could not change the channel. I tried to the ir transimittor to the tivo but that did not seem to get it to change the channel. I have not used those before (they were stuck in a closet), so I dont know if they are working or not. Did you have to do anything special like telling the S2 that it was a cable box?


----------



## magnus

1) Find guide data that closely resembles the channels that you would get via OTA. Play around with the zips until you find one that has ATT Uverse in your area. That is what is working for me.

http://tvlistings.aol.com/listings/state/city/provider?zipcode=&elicit=non_auth_location

2) rerun guided setup
3) choose cable with box
4) choose RCA box
5) choose 2 digit channel changing

I am using a standard pair of Tivo IR control cables.

You will only be able to get the main channels using this technique (until Tivo has a software update... if they do).

Cable (ATT Uverse) --> Digital Converter
04 --> 04-1
68 --> 68-1

Using this method you won't be able to get to the other sub channels like 68-2 for example but you'll still be able to watch much clearer TV than before with a pair of rabbit ears.

Also, this method does not require your box to be hacked. However, if it were you might be able to get all the sub channels.... but that's a different story.



nachogy said:


> I saw your post on the RCA DTA800. I got that converter box and tried hooking it up to HUMAX S2. It did not work. I tried telling it that it was a cable box, the picture came through but could not change the channel. I tried to the ir transimittor to the tivo but that did not seem to get it to change the channel. I have not used those before (they were stuck in a closet), so I dont know if they are working or not. Did you have to do anything special like telling the S2 that it was a cable box?


----------



## fallingwater

TiVoJedi said:


> I sent you a PM. I would definitely like one of them as the government fell short and the postal service has failed to deliver mine (to me anyway) (my reference number is three thousand, five hundred, XX, one of the first applicants before the sun even came up on 1/1/08).
> 
> The program rules changed and these are legally transferable now:
> http://ntiadtv.custhelp.com/cgi-bin...y5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1


I've been away from the TiVo Forums and didn't see your post until now. Unfortunately when I learned that I had goofed regarding the cut-off date and hadn't gotten any requests I dropped both coupons off at the local Best Buy. Wish I'd known!

Thanks for posting the rules change update. Makes perfect sense! Perhaps another Forum member can help you and the other guy who PM'd me.


----------



## JanellZ71

I am interested in using the *Digital Stream DTX-9900 *converter box with either my Series2 or Toshiba Tivo Series2 for OTA reception. Has anyone figured out a workaround solution with the IR blasters and this particular CECB unit? If so, could you post some step-by-step instructions for setup?


----------



## theplunger53

It's getting time to choose a box before coupon expires. I what a box that works with my series one and series two. Reading posts above, it looks like tivo wont support them or they wont till I will need to use my coupons. What are my options?


----------



## JanellZ71

*Channel Master CM-7000* uses Pioneer cable box remote codes
LG's *Zenith DTT900* uses the same remote code as the LG brand DirecTv satellite tuner (try using IR code "10075-B")
LG's *Insignia NS-DXA1* same as the Zenith DTT900 above
*RCA DTA800B* uses the same remote code as the RCA brand DirecTv satellite receiver

NOTES: you may need to turn off the converter box's "Power Down" setting, and you will need to use the touchy IR Blasters.

*theplunger53*, since you are running out of time to utilize your coupon, you might as well try one of these, and run Tivo's Guided Setup. While this is not a Tivo supported solution (doesn't allow you to record from any of the sub-channels), you will enjoy great over-the-air digital programming.


----------



## magnus

Also, it's best to use ATT Uverse (cable) as the provider when using one of these boxes because it closely matches the local channels (at least for me it does). 

I agree... you might as well get one of these boxes that already works with the main channels.


----------



## kagi.anirik

Thanks a lot Magnus, using the RCA DTA800 converter, picked up for less than $13 out the door at Walmart using the federal coupon, all the standard channels work just fine. Really wish that Tivo would simply make an Digital OTA cable setup for the major urban areas that allows you to select your version of box - I really can't imagine it being a huge issue, especially since they'll do custom setups for mini-prodivers.

Highly recommend the RCA unit, for those interested - mother ended up with the Zenith and is highly disappointed about the buzzing that comes through on the audio. Returns are tricky due to the coupon. Thanks again Magnus!


----------



## classicsat

kagi.anirik said:


> Really wish that Tivo would simply make an Digital OTA cable setup for the major urban areas that allows you to select your version of box - I really can't imagine it being a huge issue, especially since they'll do custom setups for mini-prodivers.


They want to do something for all "affected" customers, including those in the middle of nowhere, and have as near full support for all digital OTA channels they can. Which means an "Antenna with box option" in guided setup, and proper support for "xx-x" channels in the guide and channel changing. No need for a particular box is needed, just add IR codes. They all apparently change channels the same way.

Making a fake digital OTA lineup for a box supported service is just a half baked hack TiVo would just not do on a large scale.


----------



## TheGreenHornet

JanellZ71 said:


> *Channel Master CM-7000* uses Pioneer cable box remote codes
> LG's *Zenith DTT900* uses the same remote code as the LG brand DirecTv satellite tuner (try using IR code "10075-B")
> LG's *Insignia NS-DXA1* same as the Zenith DTT900 above
> *RCA DTA800B* uses the same remote code as the RCA brand DirecTv satellite receiver
> 
> NOTES: you may need to turn off the converter box's "Power Down" setting, and you will need to use the touchy IR Blasters.
> 
> *theplunger53*, since you are running out of time to utilize your coupon, you might as well try one of these, and run Tivo's Guided Setup. While this is not a Tivo supported solution (doesn't allow you to record from any of the sub-channels), you will enjoy great over-the-air digital programming.


Let me see if I understand JanellZ71 correctly with this senerio.

It is a cold damp day in the Philly burbs and a perfect day for an electronics project. In my home office I have my 13 year old Sony Trinitron and my series 2 Tivo that have been updated with a plasma and series 3 tivo working like a champ with OTA. The Sony and series 2 are not hooked up but still have years of life left to them once connected in my office via OTA.

So I have been following this thread closely over time. From what I understand from this post - I can take a ride over to Best Buy this afternoon and purchase the Insignia NS-DXA1.

Come home and hook up the series 2 and the converter box. Run the house antenna into the converter box and from the box to the tivo 2 antenna jack via a coxial cable. Connect the Tivo2 to the analog TV via the 3 colored jacks (red-white-yellow) What no S Video jack!

Run the guided setup and in this example and choose the LG DirecTv satellite tuner as if I have satellite. The Tivo will see the main OTA digital channels (3.1 - 6.1- 10.1 etc as 3 - 6- 10). Delete anything in the channels listing it thinks it sees other than the locals.

The Tivo remote will see the converter box as it once saw a cable box and change the channels on the box. I will then see the digital main HD channels via OTA of the local Philly stations down converted on my Sony analog TV. I have no interest in the sub channels just the main channels.

So now I can schedule for tonight on the series Tivo series 2 to watch later in digitial clarity:

Big Brother at 8PM to record on CBS3 (3.1)

Psych at 9PM to record on NBC10 (10.1)

Brothers & Sisters at 10PM to record on 6ABC (6.1)

So do I understand this correctly? Not only do I have an afternoon Sunday project but those series 2 OTA users with coupons about to expire are going to have a win! Those users can now resolve their anxiety that their beloved sole Tivo 2 and analog TVs via free OTA will work with the pending digital conversion? Nor do those S2 OTA users have to wait and wonder if Tivo will actually supply codes for the converter boxes on the market?


----------



## TheGreenHornet

Originally Posted by JanellZ71 
Channel Master CM-7000 uses Pioneer cable box remote codes

Groovy! I was just looking at the Channel Master specs for their box and it does have an S Video jack. We may have a winner here! 

For me, it is worth the extra money spent with the coupon for the better quality video signal for my mature Tivo Series 2 and Sony Trinitron TV.

My net costs would be $40 for the Channel Master box which will pay for it's self after 2 months of bagging Comcast basic cable as back up at $20 per month.


----------



## kagi.anirik

TheGreenHornet said:


> So do I understand this correctly? Not only do I have an afternoon Sunday project but those series 2 OTA users with coupons about to expire are going to have a win! Those users can now resolve their anxiety that their beloved sole Tivo 2 and analog TVs via free OTA will work with the pending digital conversion? Nor do those S2 OTA users have to wait and wonder if Tivo will actually supply codes for the converter boxes on the market?


This was exactly the scenario I was in; had a Series 2 Tivo, the converter box coupon, and an OTA antenna at work. After following the instructions from Magnus, and spending a bit of time waiting and playing, recording off the main digital OTA channels for my area - Nascar on Fox right now, Big Brother at 8pm, Saturday Night Live from last night. The AT&T Unverse does not have all local stations on it, but it's as close as I'm going to find using the box codes, for now. $14 was a heck of a lot cheaper than $350 for a business install of the local cable.


----------



## bgiannes

I got the LG's Insignia NS-DXA1 same as the Zenith DTT900, as my coupon was running out and it was the only one that bestbuy had.

anyway, it works get, even with a cheap indoor antenna! 

my next step it to have the TWC disconneted, hope my tivo series 2 re-programing to the converter goes okay, no money for cable anymore 

i'm going to be setting up this Satur-sunday...


----------



## GT1Boy

After reading this thread I picked up the Insignia NS-DXA1 a couple weekends back to use with an old Series 2 on my kid's TV. After hooking up the converter and ir blaster, I reran Guided Setup and choose the LG Directv box with the 10075-B codes. 

While the TiVo will now change channels on the converter, it is sending a leading zero which is causing problems. It works fine for single digit channels where 02 from the TiVo becomes 2 and then 2-1 by the converter. But when the TiVo sends 012 for channel 12 the converter will change channel to 1-2. For my OTA channel lineup, I'm now able to use the TiVo to successfully change the channel on the converter to channels 2,6,8 to 2-1,6-1,8-1 but 12,24,32,49 will result in the converter trying to change to channels 1-2, 2-4, 3-2, 4-9 respectively. The only option in Advanced Channel Changing settings for the LG DirecTV box on the TiVo is turning off/on Enter key which made no difference.

Has everyone else with Zenith or Insignia boxes run into this same issue? 

It now sounds like the RCA DTA800B boxes from Walmart work flawlessly with the workaround now. If so, I may have to pick up an RCA box with my other coupon and give the Insignia to my in-laws...


----------



## bgiannes

gt1boy,

mmm..... looks like we are in the same boat, when i get home i'm going to take a good look at setting it up. 

have you tryed setting up tivo with a different LG receiver product? Also i seem to remember during the receiver IR setup you can tell tivo to use 0 or 00 and enters with channel changers? Can you tell it to drop the zeros?


follow up: what if you go back into the Insignia NS-DXA1 channel setup and del the "in-between" channels the tivo2 can't use anyway. That way when the tivo enters 012 it cant go to channel 1-2 and then will go to 12?? but if you have a channel 2-1 and a 21 you will not be about to turn to channel 21


----------



## GT1Boy

Yeah, I tried that. There is a leading zero(s) option for other directv receivers but not for the LG. 

I had already removed all of the subchannels from the Insignia since the TiVo didn't have guide data for those channels anyway. Even if 1-2 isn't a valid scanned channel, the Insignia box will still tune to it if 012 is entered on its remote. 

We have an LG plasma TV with ATSC tuner connected OTA in our breakroom at the office with an almost identical GUI as the Insignia box. On it, I removed all of the NTSC channels via "Channel Edit" menu. If I enter 012 on its remote, it just automatically drops the 0 and tunes to 12-1 and ignores the NTSC channel 12. I had hoped that the Insignia box made by LG would handle the leading zeros like the LG TV, but I guess that's not the case.

bgiannes, please let us know how it goes for you.


----------



## bgiannes

okay what if you add say channel 1-2 to the "blocked" channel list and password it. would it default to 12?

i was looking at the manual here: http://www.insignia-products.com/pc-318-49-insignia-digital-to-analog-converter-for-analog-tvs.aspx page 11


----------



## magnus

*GT1Boy and bgiannes*

I suggest that you try Guided Set up (cable) and ATT Uverse. If you do this then you remove two problems.

1) Too many channels (cause the Directv/Dish lineup is overkill)
2) 2 digit channel changing becomes an option and from the sound of things the IR controller is working but it's using 3 digit channels which cause the symptoms you described.


----------



## bgiannes

well i couldn't use a cable setup, (as all the channels dont match the correct OTA channels) and the antenna guide is out of action, i had to run an upgrade to 9.3c to fix a bug.... i'll try again tonight.

oh and i can't select att uverse, and they are not in my area.....

I'm going to try a Sat/antenna setup guide this time.....


----------



## bgiannes

Anyway, this is all very poky.... ....



if Tivo don't update these tivo2's there will be no point in keeping the service, unless you have cable or buy a HD tivo, (which i would love but dont have the money for). All the antenna tivo2 people will have to sell then on ebay for 0.99  

take the hard drive out and buy a $40 HD encloser for it that plays video, haha the end


----------



## GT1Boy

Cable's probably not an option for me either. Almost none of the OTA channels match the lineup for the local cable company. With the DirecTV lineup, all of the OTA channels match up.

As for adding channels to the blocked list, only valid channels can be blocked. Since 1-2 isn't a valid received channel it can't be blocked.

bgainnes, let me know if you find a way to get yours working. In the meantime, my parents have an RCA converter that they'll swap for my Insignia. I'd prefer to get the Insignia working since unlike the RCA it saves the aspect for each channel. But if the TiVo changes channels properly on the RCA with the DirecTV lineup, I'll stick with that setup until TiVo provides official support for cecbs.


----------



## bicker

I think these complications are why some of us bought TiVo S3s and TiVo HDs.


----------



## GT1Boy

bicker said:


> I think these complications are why some of us bought TiVo S3s and TiVo HDs.


Bicker, I agree. I have a lifetimed S3 for my wife and myself. But I also have a old 810HS with TiVo Basic on an SDTV that works perfectly fine for recording OTA SD for my kids.

From what's been posted already in the thread, it sounds as though the RCA cacbs can be controlled flawlessly (no leading zero issue like the Insignia/Zenith boxes) by choosing an RCA DirecTV receiver to be controlled by the TiVo. The TiVo programming guide data will even match up for the OTA channels (subchannels excepted). It sounds like this will be a good workaround in case TiVo chooses not to officially support any cacbs at all. I rather do this than throw out a perfectly good SD DVR after 2/2009.


----------



## bicker

Well, keep in mind that the 810HS is a great box, and (along with its heftier brother) perhaps is the only single tuner S2 that has retained any residual (read: resale) value without being a lifetime unit.


----------



## TheGreenHornet

GT1Boy said:


> Bicker, I agree. I have a lifetimed S3 for my wife and myself. But I also have a old 810HS with TiVo Basic on an SDTV that works perfectly fine for recording OTA SD for my kids.
> 
> I am some what in the same situation as GT1Boy in OR. As I posted above, I too upgraded to the S3 with the savings of cutting back the cable and going OTA when I bought a plasma TV. I want to extend the usage life of my Sony TV and S2 with lifetime via OTA for use in my office. The S2 will make a great back up machine to record my favorite shows as the S3.
> 
> I am very fortunate that I was able to foot the expense to upgrade my Tivo and televison. However, there are a lot of people out there who in this economy (read recession - and I believe we are in one) who can not run out to buy a new Tivo to replace their S2 on a whim due to the pending conversion.
> 
> Yes, I know the rebate checks are on their way to us. However, as reported in the news many Americans can not run out with the rebate and buy a new Tivo playtoy over buying food or gas. I say keep trying to work on the converter box work arounds. There could be someone reading the boards looking for a means of cutting off their cable to save household expenses to use their S2 via OTA with a converter box with coupon.
> 
> Sidenote: I am always amazed when I hear people (like my business customers) cry about their money problems. When I ask them how much they are paying for cable they reply: "oh about $120".


----------



## magnus

ATT Uverse does not need to be in your area. They are not in my zip and not in my vicinity. I chose a zip code where ATT Uverse is offered.... and made sure that those channels match the main channels of the digital broadcast.

ATT Uverse is in the DFW area but that is all that is needed. When you choose Directv/Dish you're getting more channels that you don't get and the channels match perfectly as someone else said. However, that does you little good if your box does not work with 3 digit channel changing.

Not sure how else I can say it. 



bgiannes said:


> well i couldn't use a cable setup, (as all the channels dont match the correct OTA channels) and the antenna guide is out of action, i had to run an upgrade to 9.3c to fix a bug.... i'll try again tonight.
> 
> oh and i can't select att uverse, and they are not in my area.....
> 
> I'm going to try a Sat/antenna setup guide this time.....


----------



## beepsy1269

Has anyone been able to get the Insignia NS-DXA1 to work with a Series 1 Tivo. During Guided Setup I don't have the option to select DirectTV and use the 10075 code that others have been able to get to work. Any ideas if an equivalent exists for the Series 1? Thanks.

Jon


----------



## classicsat

You will be able to choose satellite as an option anywhere in the USA.

Perhaps you can chose a zip code closer to the stations on interest. Then you can chose Satellite>DirecTV with locals>Locals below 89.
You then would set up IR, and choose LG, 10075. Series 1s get the same IR database codes as Series 2s do (for now).


----------



## bgiannes

i'm going to use my 2nd rebate card on a RCA DTA800, just in case. Tivo don't update the series 2 to use converter boxes


----------



## morrisol10

Also trying to get the channel changing to work between a Tivo2 and the Insignia NS-DXA1. Bunny ears only, but used guided setup using "DirecTV" channels. Got soooo close to having it all work, but having this problem with the leading zeroes!!!!: mad:

Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## bgiannes

the leading zero problem makes the Insignia NS-DXA1 unusable


----------



## chris_boston

All the RCA units are sold out around where I live.
Has anyone tried getting a Digitalstream DTX-9900 (from Radio Shack) to work with a Tivo in the same way that Magnus did with the RCA 800DTA800?


----------



## bgiannes

okay, tivo update to 9.3c so i could run the Ant/sat setup guide! i selected a LG receiver, and i can only use channels 1 to 9.

tonight i'm going to try the set up for a Zenith sat receiver, i think i saw it on the list? Maybe there will not be a leading zero with that setup?


One big problem i was having last night is the i can NOT save my "channel list" changes!!

it's just not saving..... do i need to run the guide again!?


----------



## magnus

Why do you keep trying a satellite setup? I have already explained that it will work with cable. All satellite setups are going to do 3 digit channel changing.


----------



## bgiannes

magnus, 

the cable line-up dont match the ato lineup, but the sat/ant lineup do


eg channel 28 on twc is "USA" but channel 28 on OTA in LA area it's "pbs" this is where i'm

eg channel 28 in DWF somthing else again and it's in the wrong time zone anyway. every cable sat service in the country has different channel number to tv channel combinations

eg my brother has TWC in SD and his channel don't match the channels of TWC in the OC, where i'm

this is why the tivo guide setup asks for your zip and provider.


however, directv matchs local OTA channel numbers to there channel numbers country wide, (matched by zip), so this is why we are using sat/ant setups


----------



## magnus

Ok, but as I stated before... I know that. BUT.... if you choose cable and ATT Uverse it DOES match. You just have to choose a zip code in your area that has ATT Uverse... be a little creative. I used AOL TV listings to find a zip that had ATT Uverse.

This is the only way that I have found for it to work.... there may be others but if you want it to work now then you should try this.



bgiannes said:


> magnus,
> 
> the cable line-up dont match the ato lineup, but the sat/ant lineup do
> 
> eg channel 28 on twc is "USA" but channel 28 on OTA in LA area it's "pbs" this is where i'm
> 
> eg channel 28 in DWF somthing else again and it's in the wrong time zone anyway. every cable sat service in the country has different channel number to tv channel combinations
> 
> eg my brother has TWC in SD and his channel don't match the channels of TWC in the OC, where i'm
> 
> this is why the tivo guide setup asks for your zip and provider.
> 
> however, directv matchs local OTA channel numbers to there channel numbers country wide, (matched by zip), so this is why we are using sat/ant setups


----------



## bgiannes

magnus

last night i gave it a big try, i used a city zip next to me, that has att home cable, the lineup was good, but there was NO LG reciever box on the list! and the zeinth one wouldnt work, so close.... i think getting an RCA is the go?

anyone tryed a RCA?


----------



## magnus

Ok, but I think you can grab the code for the one that you used for satellite (LG I guess is the one you're saying works). And then setup for cable with another box (zenith) then change the code after the fact (to the LG code).

I'm sure there is a way to make this work.



bgiannes said:


> magnus
> 
> last night i gave it a big try, i used a city zip next to me, that has att home cable, the lineup was good, but there was LG reciever box on the list! and the zeinth one wouldnt work


----------



## GT1Boy

Well, the TiVo's IR blaster won't change channels correctly on the RCA DTA800B box either due to the leading zeros. I picked up the RCA CECB yesterday from Walmart with my second coupon. I was still hoping that I'd be able to use the DirecTV channel lineup for my local channels since they all match the broadcast channels and are not remapped like those from the cable company.

I decided to take magnus's advice and try to find a cable channel lineup from one of several cable companies in the Portland area by searching different zip codes for nearby towns via http://tvlistings.aol.com. I was finally able to find a small cable company on the fringes of the Portland, OR metro area that had 7 out of 8 channels in their lineup using the same channel number as its OTA number. The only one that isn't correct is 49 MyNetworkTV which is channel 13 on their cable lineup. It's still not perfect but it's good enough for my kids' TiVo. (For those in Portland, OR that are trying to do the same thing, choose zip 97325 Country Cablevision during guided setup.)

BTW, the Insignia/Zenith boxes are much nicer than the RCAs. The RCAs only have two aspect modes, letterbox and cropped and the settings are not saved per channel. Also there is no dedicated button on the RCA remote to change aspect. I haven't noticed the sound issue with the Insignia yet that others have mentioned.

Thanks for your help magnus.


----------



## bgiannes

i got my Tivo2 changing channels working with the Insignia box, did a cable setup and selected a Zenith cable box set to no zero, w/ enter and i changed the IR code to 10075-B.

Only problem is that all the cable company line ups i've tryed are only good up to channel 13.


so i'm still hunting for a good lineup, thnx for the link gt1boy

thanks for your help magnus


----------



## magnus

Just keep popping in zip codes in your area until you find ATT Uverse. Check the local version vs this location in Dallas area.

*Location that I used*
http://tvlistings.aol.com/listings/tx/cedar-hill/atandt-home-entertainment-u-verse-standard?hid=TX66409&zipcode=75104&tab=grid
*
Where to find locations in your area, maybe there are other sites to find this*
http://www.dslreports.com/gmaps/uverse



bgiannes said:


> i got my Tivo2 changing channels working with the Insignia box, did a cable setup and selected a Zenith cable box set to no zero, w/ enter and i changed the IR code to 10075-B.
> 
> Only problem is that all the cable company line ups i've tryed are only good up to channel 13.
> 
> so i'm still hunting for a good lineup, thnx for the link gt1boy
> 
> thanks for your help magnus


----------



## bgiannes

i found a city close-by with ATT Uverse, and setup the tivo. Only one channel was missing from there lineup, and four channels where out of range of my antenna. (it's funny now cable companies are in some zips and not others, even within the same city next to each other?)

so it's all working...

ps, gt1boy i did read a review on the RCA Rx they did said it was very basic and ugly.


----------



## magnus

I thought we were looking for functionality. 



bgiannes said:


> ps, gt1boy i did read a review on the RCA Rx they did said it was very basic and ugly.


----------



## kagi.anirik

GT1Boy said:


> Well, the TiVo's IR blaster won't change channels correctly on the RCA DTA800B box either due to the leading zeros. I picked up the RCA CECB yesterday from Walmart with my second coupon. I was still hoping that I'd be able to use the DirecTV channel lineup for my local channels since they all match the broadcast channels and are not remapped like those from the cable company.


When I went through the guided setup, the TIVO asked which settings to use, with one leading zero, or multiple - I chose one, tested each configuration, following the Tivo's on screen instructions, and didn't have any problem. The DTA800 box is the only one I found that stands up on the side, perfect for sticking in that corner where I don't have to see it, and the IR blaster off the TIVO means I never have to see the box myself.

For those in the Los Angeles area, choose 90001 for your zip, ATT Uverse for your cable, RCA for your box, and follow the configuring options and within a half hour, you should be good to go.


----------



## chris_boston

Well, I finally went out and bought a Zenith DTX9900 and got things to work as described above.

For those in the Boston area, the settings that I used were:
Zip Code: 02215
Provider: Boston University

My only remaining question is that TiVo doesn't seem to be able to send an "Enter" with the 10075-B code that everyone else is suggesting, even though I have the configuration set up to send "Enter" after the channel number.
Is anyone else facing a similar problem?

It's not a big deal; it just means that when TiVo changes channel, it doesn't go into effect for a couple of seconds. The main impact is only that when I hit channel up, I have to be careful not to hit channel up again until the previous channel up "goes through".


----------



## Soapm

How does this work with the S2 DT Tivo's? I Tivo currently controls one box, will it be able to control two if I buy one of these?

ps... How do I know which box works in my area?


----------



## classicsat

The S2DTs can only control one box, period. 

Any of the boxes that are claimed to work should work anywhere.


----------



## gastrof

Soapm said:


> How does this work with the S2 DT Tivo's? I Tivo currently controls one box, will it be able to control two if I buy one of these?
> 
> ps... How do I know which box works in my area?


The Dual Tuner TiVos aren't meant for *O*ver*T*he*A*ir reception. They were made to work with cable and satellite only.

If your TiVo is currently using a cable box, the digital boxes being discussed will be of no use to you, since they're for OTA use, and you seem to have cable.

If you want to switch to OTA, however, since the settings used to control the boxes rely on you telling the TiVo it's hooked into cable, since your machine was made to work with cable, you might actually be able to get a DT TiVo receiving OTA television.

You'll only be able to record one show at a time, however.


----------



## Soapm

gastrof said:


> If you want to switch to OTA, however, since the settings used to control the boxes rely on you telling the TiVo it's hooked into cable, since your machine was made to work with cable, you might actually be able to get a DT TiVo receiving OTA television.
> 
> You'll only be able to record one show at a time, however.


I read that several times and can't figure out what you said???

I hope Comcast does develop these dongles. If so it would see I can stick one on my second input and be ok.

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=146733&site=cdn


----------



## bicker

The dongle won't address the S2DT issue.


----------



## classicsat

No dongle will fix the S2DT issue. 

A box the size of a small refrigerator is needed to convert a number of digital channels to analog at once, and properly modulate them on analog cable frequencies.

As for the Series 2 DT and digital OTA, it will work with the current work around, since the current work around involves faking a cable or satellite lineup.


----------



## chris_boston

One more kink with the Zenith box:
If you're sitting on channel "7.1", and the Tivo instructs the box to go to channel 7, the Zenith box is too smart and thinks that the user can't possibly intend for it to go to the same channel, so it goes to channel "7.2".
I guess whenever they start selling RCA boxes around here again, I'll get one of those instead.


----------



## bgiannes

chris_boston said:


> One more kink with the Zenith box:
> If you're sitting on channel "7.1", and the Tivo instructs the box to go to channel 7, the Zenith box is too smart and thinks that the user can't possibly intend for it to go to the same channel, so it goes to channel "7.2".
> I guess whenever they start selling RCA boxes around here again, I'll get one of those instead.


mmm.. with my setup i was watching channel 5 (5-1) and i saw the tivo try to change the channel to 5 and it when to channel 50-1?

Note when channels are changed on the converter a menu of known channels comes up, then you can use the arrows to move to your channel. did the tivo send a IR command that moved the arrow down?


----------



## Soapm

classicsat said:


> As for the Series 2 DT and digital OTA, it will work with the current work around, since the current work around involves faking a cable or satellite lineup.


I guess I misundertood the purpose of the dongle. It looked like it would convert the basic digital channels (non encryptedor HD) to analog.

I am in a low point in a city with 5 OTA channels that I know of so don't think OTA is even worth the effort. When the day comes I may have to fork out for a S3 and put this one as slave box in the bedroom.


----------



## magnus

Official word from Tivo!!! Support for most boxes around... Summer 2008.

http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/setupmytivo/Digitalantennasupport.html


----------



## Soapm

magnus said:


> Official word from Tivo!!! Support for most boxes around... Summer 2008.
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/setupmytivo/Digitalantennasupport.html


Great, so my only real option is to trick it to accepting OTA by using sat settings...



> *Series2 DVRs with either a 649 (Dual Tuner) or a 542 prefix, are only intended to work with cable and satellite and this functionality will remain unchanged. No additional functionality enabling these DVRs to receive a digital antenna signal will be added by the software update.


like I said, I thin it'll make a good stream server for the bedroom...


----------



## magnus

huh????  I think you are missing something. Where the heck did you get that???



Soapm said:


> Great, so my only real option is to trick it to accepting OTA by using sat


----------



## wmcbrine

magnus said:


> Official word from Tivo!!! Support for most boxes around... Summer 2008.
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/setupmytivo/Digitalantennasupport.html


That's not what that page says for me. Did they change it? All I get is the "investigating" line, and no dates.


----------



## MickeS

wmcbrine said:


> That's not what that page says for me. Did they change it? All I get is the "investigating" line, and no dates.


On the current page it says "TiVo is currently working on a free software update scheduled for release in the Summer of 2008 which will enable most Series2 DVRs* to function with the new converter boxes." Odd that it's not showing for you.


----------



## gastrof

Soapm said:


> Great, so my only real option is to trick it to accepting OTA by using sat settings...


Actually, it looks like only the Dual Tuner machines will be stuck with no converter box update. (Did I read that wrong?)

The Dual Tuner machines weren't meant to work with OTA anyway, so why should DT owners worry or feel left out? The converter boxes are only for OTA use, not digital cable. Digital cable will still be available to DT machines the same way it was before...by way of a cable box.


----------



## MickeS

gastrof said:


> Actually, it looks like only the Dual Tuner machines will be stuck with no converter box update. (Did I read that wrong?)
> 
> The Dual Tuner machines weren't meant to work with OTA anyway, so why should DT owners worry or feel left out? The converter boxes are only for OTA use, not digital cable. Digital cable will still be available to DT machines the same way it was before...by way of a cable box.


You read that right. OF COURSE there will not be an OTA converter box solution for the DT units, since they were never intended for OTA. They will continue to have to be used with cable service, the worst case scenario is that they will become single tuner only if the cable company turns off the analog signal at some point. But that's always been the case with those boxes.


----------



## bicker

Great news from TiVo! My S2 burner shall live on! 

Thanks, TiVo!


----------



## wmcbrine

MickeS said:


> On the current page it says "TiVo is currently working on a free software update scheduled for release in the Summer of 2008 which will enable most Series2 DVRs* to function with the new converter boxes." Odd that it's not showing for you.


This is what I see:



TiVo said:


> Support Article
> 
> Digital antenna support
> 45-16-61 Search Reference Number
> Print this page
> 
> TiVo Series2 DVRs do not support the use of HD (ATSC) antennas at this time.
> 
> We are actively investigating support of this technology, so please check this page regularly for updates.
> 
> Print this page Back to top Support home


I tried reloading the page and viewing it in a different browser; same result.



MickeS said:


> You read that right. OF COURSE there will not be an OTA converter box solution for the DT units, since they were never intended for OTA.


Although this would be a good time to rectify that... granted they can only do single-tuner, but I don't see a reason for the DTs not to support CECBs as well. The only reason they didn't do OTA was to avoid the digital tuner mandate, but that's already been accomplished. I don't think support for an add-on box can affect that status.

Edit: OK, I ssh'd to freeshell.org and lynx'd the URL. From _there_, I can see the new page. From here directly (including via lynx), I can't. Weird. Some kind of transparent proxying going on? I'm on Fios BTW.


----------



## JanellZ71

Magnus, thanks for posting the link to the Tivo Digital Antenna Support article. "TiVo is currently working on a free software update scheduled for release in the Summer of 2008 which will enable most Series2 DVRs* to function with the new converter boxes." This is *great* news. This week, I was trying to locate one of the RCA DTA800B converters at several of the local _Wally World_ stores, but it doesn't appear that they shipped any units to SE WI. My $40 coupon expires near the end of July. In a perfect world, it would be desirable to receive guidance from Tivo (sooner rather than later) as to which specific CECB's might be supported.


----------



## Adam1115

wmcbrine said:


> This is what I see:
> 
> I tried reloading the page and viewing it in a different browser; same result.


That's what it said for me until this morning.


----------



## Soapm

MickeS said:


> You read that right. OF COURSE there will not be an OTA converter box solution for the DT units, since they were never intended for OTA. They will continue to have to be used with cable service, the worst case scenario is that they will become single tuner only if the cable company turns off the analog signal at some point. But that's always been the case with those boxes.


Oh, I get it. These boxes are for OTA service and not cable/FIOS. I guess I was in left field. i will sure miss the DT functionality but I have had bigger losses in life.


----------



## Whittaker

JanellZ71 said:


> "TiVo is currently working on a free software update scheduled for release in the Summer of 2008 which will enable most Series2 DVRs* to function with the new converter boxes."


Aye Carumba !


----------



## promethious

I was able to get my Insignia box working with my Series 1 SVR-2000 by using the guide at http://www.gratisoft.us/tivo/dtv.html and determined the channel mapping by using tvlistings.aol.com. I selected Cable in the guided setup and used the Time Warner Digital Extended line up.

You do need to have telnet access to your unit but I was able to get the LG code added to the Zenith list and remap all the channels but one to their correct listings. Now it uses the 3 digit code on all channels so I get all the sub channels too.

Hello OTA. Good bye Time Warner Cable.


----------



## magnus

Yep, they are kind of hard to find. I had the electronics dept. call a nearby Walmart and they had a few.



JanellZ71 said:


> Magnus, thanks for posting the link to the Tivo Digital Antenna Support article. "TiVo is currently working on a free software update scheduled for release in the Summer of 2008 which will enable most Series2 DVRs* to function with the new converter boxes." This is *great* news. This week, I was trying to locate one of the RCA DTA800B converters at several of the local _Wally World_ stores, but it doesn't appear that they shipped any units to SE WI. My $40 coupon expires near the end of July. In a perfect world, it would be desirable to receive guidance from Tivo (sooner rather than later) as to which specific CECB's might be supported.


----------



## MickeS

promethious said:


> Hello OTA. Good bye Time Warner Cable.


I use OTA only for my Series 3, but basic cable for my Series 2 (single tuner), because the analog OTA reception is so poor. But now when TiVo will be able to control a converter box, I think I will switch to OTA on the Series 2 too. Would be sweet to say goodbye to Cox completely.


----------



## TheGreenHornet

magnus said:


> Yep, they are kind of hard to find. I had the electronics dept. call a nearby Walmart and they had a few.


For the hell of it I did a search for "Digitial Converter Box" on E-Bay. There are quite a few after market used or returned retail boxes of all brands like the Best Buy version. Some of their boxes are 99 cents plus $10 shipping.

The RCA DTA800 is really selling for higher price than with retail with coupon. Perhaps if someone wants to test a box and not use their coupon for their test that they could snipe an auction or find a good price buy it now for their OTA series 2.


----------



## SDH400

promethious said:


> I was able to get my Insignia box working with my Series 1 SVR-2000 by using the guide at http://www.gratisoft.us/tivo/dtv.html and determined the channel mapping by using tvlistings.aol.com. I selected Cable in the guided setup and used the Time Warner Digital Extended line up.
> 
> You do need to have telnet access to your unit but I was able to get the LG code added to the Zenith list and remap all the channels but one to their correct listings. Now it uses the 3 digit code on all channels so I get all the sub channels too.
> 
> Hello OTA. Good bye Time Warner Cable.


I envy you have the ability to telnet into your TiVo.

Have you considered suffling the IR code so that TiVo will output the "wrong" IR code to match the channels? e.g. If your TiVo's channel 7 is your OTA's channel 23-1, you can program IR code "7" to output "2" "3" (and maybe "-1").


----------



## JanellZ71

I have learned why I cannot find the RCA box at any of the Wally Worlds in my state. According to this review from HDTVexpert:

_The DTA800 is scheduled for sale through Wal-Mart, although at this writing the Wal-Mart Web site showed it was not available on-line, only in stores. The scuttlebutt I got at NAB from an ex-RCA exec is that the DTA800 would be distributed west of the Mississippi, while the troublesome Magnavox TB100MW9 would be stocked in the eastern USA.
_
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/2TV_Converters.html


----------



## suggest THIS

Magnus, thanks to your instructions, I was able to fool my Dual Tuner Series2 into recording 
OTA VHF signals. In the Sacramento, CA area, use the Zipcode 95765 and ATT U-Verse.


----------



## magnus

NEWS FLASH... THIS JUST IN FROM TIVO

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=392361&p=6284286


----------



## gordonzo

after reading this thread for the third time,i decided to try to locate a rca box in minnesota.first i checked walmarts web site only to find out i could only get one at the store.then i called a dozen walmarts around se mn. and was told the rca's were all out and they only had magnovox ones.today i went into my local one and the display was a magnovox one,but when i looked on the shelf there were rca dta800.i hope this is the one you guys were talking about.
also checked out other stores and heres what i found:
radio shack-digital stream 59.00
best buy-infinity 59.00
target-ge and ventura 48.00
also check out:
http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Converter_Box_Retailers.html
https://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm
and 
https://www.dtv2009.gov/VendorSearch.aspx(includes online and stores accepting coupons)
coupons are a credit card which you have to sign name just like regular credit cards.


----------



## Clownpleco

Just got a pretty good deal over the phone ...

Just talked to a TiVo support and they gave me the following info:
1) Purchase a new series HD -249.99
2) Free transfer of life time 
3) Possible $$$ for exchanging Series 2 for the HD.

Just want to make sure

1) Series HD will accept DTV signal through rabbit ears - correct? 
2) Can my old analog TV accept the signal from the Series HD TiVO?

Thanks

Rick


----------



## cia_viewer

Clownpleco said:


> Just got a pretty good deal over the phone ...
> 
> Just talked to a TiVo support and they gave me the following info:
> 1) Purchase a new series HD -249.99
> 2) Free transfer of life time
> 3) Possible $$$ for exchanging Series 2 for the HD.
> 
> Just want to make sure
> 
> 1) Series HD will accept DTV signal through rabbit ears - correct?
> 2) Can my old analog TV accept the signal from the Series HD TiVO?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rick


1) : My HDTiVo accepts the same COAX input as my analog TVs and my Series 2 TiVo. (attic antenna fed through homerun with amplifier for distribution throughout our house).
2) : I have serious doubts. Ask TiVo. I have kept my Series 2 TiVo and good analog TV with hopes of finding a CECB to work with them.


----------



## classicsat

1: Yes, you can receive digital OTA with rabbit ears, provided there is enough signal. The TiVo HD will be able to use it.

2: Yes, the TiVo HD has analog SD outputs, however only in A/V. An RF modulator (sold separately) is needed for older sets that only have RF input.


----------



## dpecs

Clownpleco said:


> Just got a pretty good deal over the phone ...
> 
> Just talked to a TiVo support and they gave me the following info:
> 1) Purchase a new series HD -249.99
> 2) Free transfer of life time
> 3) Possible $$$ for exchanging Series 2 for the HD.
> 
> Just want to make sure
> 
> 1) Series HD will accept DTV signal through rabbit ears - correct?
> 2) Can my old analog TV accept the signal from the Series HD TiVO?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rick


How did you get this deal? What did you ask them? $249 for an HD Tivo & Free Transfer of Lifetime is pretty sweet. What did you mean by this "3) Possible $$$ for exchanging Series 2 for the HD."?


----------



## loubob57

Just picked up a couple of Zenith boxes from Circuit City yesterday.


----------



## Clownpleco

Sounds like I did get lucky. Like I said, when I first called I expected to pay $200 for the transfer - at which time I would have declined. I made sure the deal was in 'writing' and called back today. They said they'd honor the deal, but there was no trade-in value for the existing Series2.

I think I got quite the deal - will now have to tuners and HD capability. 

Counting my lucky stars.

Rick


----------



## magnus

Well, as usual I get the same response from Tivo... we don't have any offers like that.



Clownpleco said:


> Sounds like I did get lucky. Like I said, when I first called I expected to pay $200 for the transfer - at which time I would have declined. I made sure the deal was in 'writing' and called back today. They said they'd honor the deal, but there was no trade-in value for the existing Series2.
> 
> I think I got quite the deal - will now have to tuners and HD capability.
> 
> Counting my lucky stars.
> 
> Rick


----------



## stahta01

I just ordered myself the Channel Master ATSC Digital Converter Box CM-7000.

Edit: Just placed an second order for Artec T3APro this time.

I hope one works well.

Tim S


----------



## sfb

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. It was enormously helpful in getting me up to speed on the DTV transition and the hurdles involved. I've been waiting for Tivo to announce Series 1 support options, but my coupon was about to expire so I had to just take the plunge.

Good news! I *believe* I have my Series 1 Tivo working with the Digital Stream DTX9900 from RadioShack (knock on wood).

I followed a previous poster's advice on using 90001 & AT&T U-Verse since I'm in LA. For the IR / Cable Box setup, I tried a bunch of different manufacturers to no avail, until I hit upon one that worked: Zenith, using the "10013" code. It works with the "Fast" method of channel changing too.

Unfortunately I don't see a way to change to the "sub-channels". But just having it work at a bare minimum has made my day, especially after all the agonizing hours of research! 

Anyway, I wanted to post this in case it helps anyone else out! And if anyone finds a better method of channel changing with this setup, let me know. 

Cheers,
sfb


----------



## jd1123

i also have a series 1 tivo with a Digital stream dtv9900, but i could not get Zenith"10013" code to work, is there something i may be doing wrong. Thanks in advance


----------



## classicsat

Try LG codes.


----------



## sfb

jd1123 said:


> i also have a series 1 tivo with a Digital stream dtv9900, but i could not get Zenith"10013" code to work, is there something i may be doing wrong. Thanks in advance


Are the IR emitters lined up to the sensors on the DTX9900? I had to readjust mine to get it working.

I haven't tried the LG codes, but might try switching if it makes the channels change any faster. The latency is pretty brutal.

Cheers,
sfb


----------



## SHook

FWIW, based on the information here I have successfully setup a RCA DTA800 with a basic RCA attenna (rabbit ears and loop) with a Series 2. 

I re-ran guided setup choosing 'cable box' (type RCA) and using a local cable provider channel listing which matches the stations and 00 (two digit) channel format. IR blaster changes to major channels (04 for 4-1, 05 for 5-1 etc.) -- its takes a good 2-3 seconds for the tivo to issue the change command and the DTA800 to actually change the channel. 

Though, like magnus said, I can't tune 4-2, 4-3, etc. because there is no way to do this. Also some channel / guide listings don't match some of the higher numbered stations e.g. 31-1 so I can't record unless I set up as a manual recording.

Thanks to magnus and others for their postings here - I wouldn't have tried it unless I saw that others had success.


----------



## cia_viewer

SHook said:


> FWIW, based on the information here I have successfully setup a RCA DTA800 with a basic RCA attenna (rabbit ears and loop) with a Series 2.
> 
> I re-ran guided setup choosing 'cable box' (type RCA) and using a local cable provider channel listing which matches the stations and 00 (two digit) channel format. IR blaster changes to major channels (04 for 4-1, 05 for 5-1 etc.) -- its takes a good 2-3 seconds for the tivo to issue the change command and the DTA800 to actually change the channel.
> 
> Though, like magnus said, I can't tune 4-2, 4-3, etc. because there is no way to do this. Also some channel / guide listings don't match some of the higher numbered stations e.g. 31-1 so I can't record unless I *set up as a manual recording*.
> 
> Thanks to magnus and others for their postings here - I wouldn't have tried it unless I saw that others had success.


Can you give any more details about how well the TiVo's IR Blaster works to control the CECB's powering up and changing channels (e,g,: 4-1, 31-1)


----------



## SHook

(I think others have posted this, but) I changed the configuration setting on the DTA800 to leave the box powered on all the time (24 x 7) -- so once I got the channel changing to work through guided set up I was done. 

I'll look into trying it with the power off in the next week or so and post results. Guess it'd be more 'green' of me if I could power it down when not in use.


----------



## magnus

It does not change the channel or even turn on the box when in standby mode.



cia_viewer said:


> Can you give any more details about how well the TiVo's IR Blaster works to control the CECB's powering up and changing channels (e,g,: 4-1, 31-1)


----------



## sfb

SHook said:


> (I think others have posted this, but) I changed the configuration setting on the DTA800 to leave the box powered on all the time (24 x 7) -- so once I got the channel changing to work through guided set up I was done.
> 
> I'll look into trying it with the power off in the next week or so and post results. Guess it'd be more 'green' of me if I could power it down when not in use.


Ah yes, I had to change this setting on the DTX9900 as well, after discovering some snowy recordings. Has to be always on since TiVo's always on.

Cheers,
sfb


----------



## flikhem

I, too, have had success with two RCA DTA800s on two different Series2 TiVos. I had to use a satellite channel line-up, and then delete a zillion channels from TiVo, but it's working. The only problem I've encountered is my primary PBS station is 10-2, and the TiVo only tells the box 10, so it goes to 10-1. I can live with that, until the update, this summer.

Now my question: Why is the RCA DTA800 so difficult to find? A month ago, when I rec'd my coupons, my local Wal-mart had at least 50 of them. Now I need two more for my 80 year-old parents in Ohio, and they say none of the Wal-marts or any other stores have them. None of the Wal-marts I've checked near me have them either. I have several coupons from various family members, the earliest expire 07/03/08. I suspect (hope) that they will still be accepted after that. By the way, I accidentally double registered my father, so he rec'd two sets of coupons. So much for the "two per household" limit.

I like the simplicity of the DTA800, and don't want anything else for my parents. I guess I'll just have to keep checking different Wal-marts randomly. Wal-mart's site now says "not available online" and "not available in stores"!


----------



## cia_viewer

flikhem said:


> I, too, have had success with two RCA DTA800s on two different Series2 TiVos. I had to use a satellite channel line-up, and then delete a zillion channels from TiVo, but it's working. The only problem I've encountered is my primary PBS station is 10-2, and the TiVo only tells the box 10, so it goes to 10-1. I can live with that, until the update, this summer.
> 
> Now my question: Why is the RCA DTA800 so difficult to find? A month ago, when I rec'd my coupons, my local Wal-mart had at least 50 of them. Now I need two more for my 80 year-old parents in Ohio, and they say none of the Wal-marts or any other stores have them. None of the Wal-marts I've checked near me have them either. I have several coupons from various family members, the earliest expire 07/03/08. I suspect (hope) that they will still be accepted after that. By the way, I accidentally double registered my father, so he rec'd two sets of coupons. So much for the "two per household" limit.
> 
> I like the simplicity of the DTA800, and don't want anything else for my parents. I guess I'll just have to keep checking different Wal-marts randomly. Wal-mart's site now says "not available online" and "not available in stores"!


The RCA DTA800B models have this capsulized description: NoPassThru;NoEZAdd;Now/NextEPG

Whereas the RCA DTA800B1: PassThru;NoEZAdd;Now/NextEPG

I have been looking for a DTA800B1 because our two most important (PBS) channels are not 'delivering' DTV signals to our area, yet and we need to 'Pass Through' the existing analog signal for the rest of this year...

Have you found any way to 'add channels' without erasing the previous 'autoscan' results? (e.g.: find channels, turn antenna, add more channels)

Could they be trying to clean out the DTA800B supply before bring in the DTA800B1s?

I have been trying out a Magnavox TB100MG9	PassThru;EZAdd(ScanUpdt), but its 'PassThru' is so contorted that I do not think TiVo's IR Blaster could hope to cope with it.

I am assuming you have your TiVo - IR Blaster operating your DTA800B to record programs.


----------



## classicsat

flikhem said:


> Now my question: Why is the RCA DTA800 so difficult to find? A month ago, when I rec'd my coupons, my local Wal-mart had at least 50 of them.


Anecdotally, I read somewhere that they were shipping RCA boxes only West of the Mississippi, Magnavox East.


----------



## minenet

After spending a while looking for the code under:
http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport...ing_for_Channel_Changing_with_IR_Control.html

I found the code for the Magnavox box TB100MW9 (the one that is sold at Walmart).

IR Code: 10086

It works very well on my series 2 (the only problem is I am using the satellite linup, so it pads channels with zeros - 00xx - which causes a problem for channels 10-99 as the receiver interprets it as 1.0-9.9


----------



## cia_viewer

minenet said:


> After spending a while looking for the code under:
> http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport...ing_for_Channel_Changing_with_IR_Control.html
> 
> I found the code for the Magnavox box TB100MW9 (the one that is sold at Walmart).
> 
> IR Code: 10086
> 
> It works very well on my series 2 (the only problem is I am using the satellite linup, so it pads channels with zeros - 00xx - which causes a problem for channels 10-99 as the receiver interprets it as 1.0-9.9


Can it switch back and forth between digital and analog TV channels? The two favorite stations (PBS) are not, yet, delivering their DTV signals to us.


----------



## cia_viewer

Has anyone been able to make a TiVo Series 2 with IR Blaster control a Zenith DTT900?

ATT/Uni...? is not in Colorado.


----------



## GT1Boy

cia_viewer said:


> Has anyone been able to make a TiVo Series 2 with IR Blaster control a Zenith DTT900?
> 
> ATT/Uni...? is not in Colorado.


Yes, the trick is to set it up as an LG Cable box with IR Code 10075A, B , or C and to find a cable provider in your area that its channel lineup with same channel number as their Over The Air numbers. See my previous posts in the thread for more info...

However, there is one big issue with this workaround with the Zenith/Insignia boxes. If you try to record two shows in succession on the same channel and that channel has multiple subchannels, the CECB will change to the next subchannel instead staying on the same one for the subsequent show. Example: TiVo is set to record two 30 min shows at 8pm and 8:30pm on channel 2. At 7:45pm CECB is on channel 6-1, at 8pm TiVo changes CECB to channel 2-1 by sending a 2 via IR Blaster to record first program. At 8:30pm, TiVo sends 2 via IR blaster to CECB but CECB changes to 2-2.

BTW, the RCA DTA800 CECBs do not have this issue with the workaround and will just stay on the -1 channel. TiVo has said that they will provide official support for many CECBs with Series 2 TiVos in the near future. I'd expect the Zenith models will be part of that support.


----------



## jd1123

still having trouble with my Digital Stream dtx9900, was considering a second dtv box, is the rca the best choice? I have a series 1 sony tivo


----------



## promethious

SDH400 said:


> I envy you have the ability to telnet into your TiVo.
> 
> Have you considered suffling the IR code so that TiVo will output the "wrong" IR code to match the channels? e.g. If your TiVo's channel 7 is your OTA's channel 23-1, you can program IR code "7" to output "2" "3" (and maybe "-1").


I do have to do something similar. For example I have to map my OTA channel 10-1 to TWC 550 by using the channel_map script at http://www.gratisoft.us/tivo/dtv.html. Now the Tivo thinks OTA 10-1 is actually 101 (and channel 4-1 is 41). None of TWC's channels line up to their OTA counter part.

For anyone that does telnet in to get you box working, make sure to follow all the troubleshooting instructions too otherwise every time there is a channel lineup change all your stations will revert back to the wrong ones (I have recorded several "No Signal" shows because I stopped reading the instructions when I got it working).



SDH400 said:


> I envy you have the ability to telnet into your TiVo.


http://www.9thtee.com/tivoupgrades.htm has all you need to do yours. Just follow the instructions carefully.


----------



## headspin

So I have about six weeks until the coupon expires... given that my options are pretty much either Best Buy or finding an online store that accepts the coupons (or getting the DTX9950 which is the single model radioshack has), any suggestions what I should buy and where? I know we won't know for sure until it's too late, but any recommendations - even based on hunches - would be welcome.

Alternatively, I could replace my series 2 Human with an HD TiVo (I'm not sure if the picture quality increase on my 37" will be good enough to lose the DVD burner) and/or finally bite the bullet and get cable service (which I really don't want to do since the cable company here is evil).

Will my old TiVo even handle the different aspect ratio of an HDTV signal? By that I mean both for viewing programs, and for burning them to DVD?


----------



## classicsat

My hunch is to get get a box that even partially supports IR now.

As for aspect ratio, it will record what the box puts out, likely the 16x9 letterboxed to fit a 4x3 screen, although may have zoom or anamorphic modes.


----------



## wmcbrine

headspin said:


> So I have about six weeks until the coupon expires... given that my options are pretty much either Best Buy or finding an online store that accepts the coupons (or getting the DTX9950 which is the single model radioshack has), any suggestions what I should buy and where?


The Digital Stream DTX9950 wouldn't be a bad choice. Otherwise, go to Best Buy and get the Insignia NS-DXA1 (which is the only model _they_ carry). Taken together with the identical Zenith DTT900 (they differ only in name), it's the most popular and highly-regarded model, so it will surely be supported. (Note that many people say that all three of the above, as well as other models based on LG chips, have a defect in their audio output. I personally have not heard it, possibly because I've only hooked them up through RF, or because I just haven't used them enough. Anyway, the defect is supposed to be fixed (or really, worked around) in Zenith models with an April 2008 or later date. That may also apply to the others (especially the Insignia), but I'm not sure.)

Personally I'm expecting broad support for many CECBs, and I hope that I can use my Venturer STB7766G from Target. (It has no guide, which doesn't matter in a TiVo context, but it uses the same LG chip as the above models (= good reception), and it's cheaper.)


----------



## snedecor

magnus said:


> Just keep popping in zip codes in your area until you find ATT Uverse. Check the local version vs this location in Dallas area.
> 
> *Location that I used*
> http://tvlistings.aol.com/listings/tx/cedar-hill/atandt-home-entertainment-u-verse-standard?hid=TX66409&zipcode=75104&tab=grid
> *
> Where to find locations in your area, maybe there are other sites to find this*
> http://www.dslreports.com/gmaps/uverse


Has anyone gone through this exercise in Houston area? I have a Series 1, and U-verse for Houston mis-maps several OTA stations. I have typed in probably 50 zip codes, but none of the cable systems I've found match. DirecTV has the closest match (only one station missed) but my Series 1 insists on the leading zero, which does not work on my DTA800.


----------



## cia_viewer

Friday 13 June, I spent about 6 hours and off and on time with several very courteous and very patient TiVo Technical Support Agents. They admitted that working with a CECB was covering new ground.
The goal was to get my CECB (Zenith DTT900) and TiVo Series 2 DVR (with IR Blaster) working together.

My antenna COAX was connected to the CECB (instead of directly to TiVo).
The CECB was connected with RF COAX and composite (r/w/y) to the TiVo.
The TiVo remained connected to my TV with RF COAX and composite (r/w/y).
The IR Blaster was plugged into TiVo IR Output and positioned in front of the CECB IR Sensor.

With the TV still set at Ch3 and the TiVo also set to Ch3, I was able to view 'Live TV' by selecting Digital Channels with the CECB Remote Control.
The TiVo Remote could adjust the TV Volume as usual. I never saw any indication that the IR Blaster communicated any signals to the CECB.

At the end of the six hours, I spoke with a supervisor. I told him his agents were very courteous and very patient. He told me that TiVo could not work with any of the CECBs. He also said the that sometime this summer TiVo software will be updated to support 'all of the CECBs'. I told him the TiVo OTA community felt an urgency to know which CECBs could work best with TiVo.
I have not, as yet, received an email confirming his statements.

This is the longest period I have had the Zenith DTT900 powered up. It was just a little warm. I think it is a good thermal design.


----------



## bicker

So coming to TCF first could have saved you from wasting six hours. The power of the online community!


----------



## dpecs

My Zenith works great with Tivo. I did the workaround mentioned and now I have full capability due to signing up for the beta testing.


----------



## ForrestB

FYI the DTVPal http://dtvpal.com/ is due to ship on June 19. CNET gave it a rating of 7.3 according to CNET DTVPal review


----------



## David_NC

I've been waiting for the dtvpal, but while searching google for possible local retailers, have run across several reports that the price will be as much as $60. 

Does anyone know of a website that lists some useful specifications on the various converters (things like receiver sensitivity, selectivity, etc), instead of the usual list of which features each has? All I've founds is comparisons of two or three units, and then its just subjective ratings (this one receives more stations, the other one picks up weakers stations, which one looks better on their TV, etc), but not much to base a purchase on.


----------



## cia_viewer

David_NC said:


> I've been waiting for the dtvpal, but while searching google for possible local retailers, have run across several reports that the price will be as much as $60.
> 
> Does anyone know of a website that lists some useful specifications on the various converters (things like receiver sensitivity, selectivity, etc), instead of the usual list of which features each has? All I've founds is comparisons of two or three units, and then its just subjective ratings (this one receives more stations, the other one picks up weakers stations, which one looks better on their TV, etc), but not much to base a purchase on.


This is where I have been following the DTVPal saga: 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1001979&page=32

This site provides some comparisons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units


----------



## magnus

I think they have all the answers needed here, to be able to get things to work. They just need to setup as another cable provider if they can't find Uverse in their area and use the codes that others have already provided to them.



bicker said:


> So coming to TCF first could have saved you from wasting six hours. The power of the online community!


----------



## snedecor

snedecor said:


> Has anyone gone through this exercise in Houston area? I have a Series 1, and U-verse for Houston mis-maps several OTA stations. I have typed in probably 50 zip codes, but none of the cable systems I've found match. DirecTV has the closest match (only one station missed) but my Series 1 insists on the leading zero, which does not work on my DTA800.


I was never able to find an effortless solution, such as a Houston area cable lineup or Uverse, or even DirecTV, as I noted above. I signed up as a TiVo beta-tester, but was not invited. (maybe I forgot my deodorant....)

Since my Series 1 was hacked, I found a local cable provider, chose RCA as the cable box (since my converter is RCA) , installed TiVoWebPlus, and remapped the channels.

For example, I remapped channel 2 (which sent out as 002, no workie) to 21 (sends 021, RCA tunes to channel 2-1.) I remapped 13 to 131. Same for all the other OTA channels.

I guess the only down-side right now is that I can't get guide data for any of the sub-channels (most of which are weather, music video's etc.) and that I'll have to re-map when the cable lineup changes. That's one reason I went with cable, their lineups change far less frequently than satellite.

Good luck, everyone.


----------



## rainbow

Just as an fyi - Radio Shack, just today, has the Zenith DDT901's in stock in their main warehouse. Price - $59.99. You can use the coupon for it. To get it thru their warehouse, call 1-877-773-8848, give them the cpn # and a credit card # for the approx $22 balance, and they will ship it to your home.

The person I spoke with said that today was the 1st day they are selling them.


----------



## gastrof

I want a machine that has a timer, so it can work along with a recorder (that has only an analog tuner). The analog pass-thru doesn't mean much around here, but it's still a neat feature.

WHEN ARE THE DTVPAL UNITS GONNA BE AVAILABLE? I GOT LIMITED TIME LEFT FOR MY COUPONS!!!



_(I really do want one or two of the things.)_


----------



## gastrof

snedecor said:


> ...Since my Series 1 was hacked, I found a local cable provider, chose RCA as the cable box (since my converter is RCA) , installed TiVoWebPlus, and remapped the channels....
> 
> Good luck, everyone.


If I gave you a gazillion dollars, would you hack and set up my two series 1s?


----------



## gastrof

cia_viewer said:


> This is where I have been following the DTVPal saga:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1001979&page=32


From the look of things (later in that thread), it may be possible to order the TR-40 or DTVPal some time in the next two weeks.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

Supposedly they are shipping the DTVpal today, the 19th, yet I cannot order one today. Guess when my coupons expire?


----------



## David_NC

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Supposedly they are shipping the DTVpal today, the 19th, yet I cannot order one today. Guess when my coupons expire?


Let me take a wild guess - mmmm - today  ????

I was looking at the DTVPal website and wondering when it would show up - already used my first coupon on a magnavox, after waiting a couple of months just because the DTVPal was suppose to cost less.


----------



## Whittaker

I just saw a news report from some State's Attorney Generals saying that more than 800,000 of the coupons have expired unused. The Attorney Generals are calling for the feds to relax the expiration date on those cards, as there was such a limited availability of converter boxes.


----------



## mattack

gastrof said:


> I want a machine that has a timer, so it can work along with a recorder (that has only an analog tuner).


I am not sure, but that functionality might make it coupon ineligible.

I have 2 coupons that expire on the 22nd.. I was hoping one of the ones that actually cost the coupon price might come out. Otherwise, I guess I might just get one converter at most.


----------



## gastrof

mattack said:


> I am not sure, but that functionality might make it coupon ineligible...


*sigh*

The DTVPal/TR-40 has the features I described, and it certainly IS on the list. WHY would you think that feature would be a no-no?!?


----------



## dlt123

Does anyone know when TIVO is going to release the Series 2 software update that allows for DTV box use? 

Also, will the DTVPal work on a Series 2 box or is there a list of units that will work on my TIVO?

Thanks,
Dennis


----------



## bicker

dlt123 said:


> Does anyone know when TIVO is going to release the Series 2 software update that allows for DTV box use?


No date has yet been made public.



dlt123 said:


> Also, will the DTVPal work on a Series 2 box or is there a list of units that will work on my TIVO?


Unknown at this time.


----------



## dlt123

bicker said:


> No date has yet been made public.
> 
> Unknown at this time.


Thanks Bicker, I am in the process of now reading the thread:

 How will Tivo Series 2 sets be able to tune the upcoming DTV Broadcast Converters?

Looks like we/I will have to wait some more to find the answers to my questions here.

Take care,
Dennis


----------



## dwit

gastrof said:


> *sigh*
> 
> The DTVPal/TR-40 has the features I described, and it certainly IS on the list. WHY would you think that feature would be a no-no?!?


Apparently, the DTVPal *is *on the coupon eligible list, but now I don't see the TR-40. ps: Further down the linked page, I see the TR-40 is eligible but not available list.

Are the DTVPal and the Tr-40 essentially the same boxes, ie, different names for the same box?

Or maybe I'm reading something wrong. Just kind of jumping into the conversation after receiving my coupons today.

Edit:

Ok, SolidSignal.com is taking pre-orders for the Dtvpal at a cost of $59.99.

I guess they are backing out of the $40 Tr-40(?), or witholding it for a while?

Starting to like E* even less than I already did. Ok, maybe I should withold judgement for a while. They did say it may be as late as July or so.


----------



## bicker

My understanding is that the TR-40 was simply renamed DTVPal.


----------



## dwit

That does appear to be the case. Changed the name, jacked up the price.

Guess I'll start looking at other models now. No E* for me.

Hope Tivo ultimately wins their suit against the creeps.


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## TiVoJedi

snedecor said:


> Since my Series 1 was hacked, I found a local cable provider, chose RCA as the cable box (since my converter is RCA) , installed TiVoWebPlus, and remapped the channels.
> 
> For example, I remapped channel 2 (which sent out as 002, no workie) to 21 (sends 021, RCA tunes to channel 2-1.) I remapped 13 to 131. Same for all the other OTA channels.


My S1 is hacked also, but am wondering since you used a cable line-up and remapped channels... does that mean you cannot use a satellite receiver and DTV box? My dilemma is that I currently use a satellite receiver with s-video and OTA with the coax-feed into the tivo. If I do what you did, then I would only have OTA channels from the DTV box, right? How would I tell guided setup to send signals to change channels on BOTH the DTV converter box and satellite receivers? The g-link cable that came with my TiVo has two heads, but I am not sure it was designed to split between multiple receivers for the TiVo (or was it?). Forgive me for not having done guided setup since 2001 (I think). I don't remember an option like "setup with satellite tuner and additional DTV converter box that has not been invented yet". Maybe I am just confused, but without some software update from TiVo I don't think I have the ability to have my S1 TiVo zap channel changes from two different receivers. And let me guess.. TiVo has no plans to make a fix for series 1 owners, even though we were with them from the start, eh?


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## TiVoJedi

Whittaker said:


> I just saw a news report from some State's Attorney Generals saying that more than 800,000 of the coupons have expired unused. The Attorney Generals are calling for the feds to relax the expiration date on those cards, as there was such a limited availability of converter boxes.


My problem was the USPS failed to deliver mine and they expired wherever they must have fell off the mail truck. Still.. the NTIA refuses to send me replacement coupons. If they don't have money in the budget to physically re-send the coupons, can't they email me the codes and restrict them to online use only?


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## snedecor

TiVoJedi said:


> My S1 is hacked also, but am wondering since you used a cable line-up and remapped channels... does that mean you cannot use a satellite receiver and DTV box? My dilemma is that I currently use a satellite receiver with s-video and OTA with the coax-feed into the tivo. If I do what you did, then I would only have OTA channels from the DTV box, right? How would I tell guided setup to send signals to change channels on BOTH the DTV converter box and satellite receivers? The g-link cable that came with my TiVo has two heads, but I am not sure it was designed to split between multiple receivers for the TiVo (or was it?). Forgive me for not having done guided setup since 2001 (I think). I don't remember an option like "setup with satellite tuner and additional DTV converter box that has not been invented yet". Maybe I am just confused, but without some software update from TiVo I don't think I have the ability to have my S1 TiVo zap channel changes from two different receivers. And let me guess.. TiVo has no plans to make a fix for series 1 owners, even though we were with them from the start, eh?


Jedi,

My unit is a Sony SVR-2000 series 1 TiVo box, and according to the manual, which may or may not reflect the latest version of software, you can have a satellite with a box and a cable (really DTV converter) with box. Preferably, you could use serial to change the satellite and IR to change the "cable", if one of them accepts serial input. However, I think it would work if both use IR. The two IR changing LED's would go one to each box, or When you're changing the Satellite box's channels, the same IR signal would go to the "cable" box too, but hopefully, it uses different codes, and would ignore the satellite command, and vice-versa.

You will have to have one of the signals come in via RF, however, I think, while the other will come in over the RCA or SVideo input.

I can't give more detail, because guided setup for me with satellite is a 6-8 hour ordeal as TiVo downloads and indexes the millions of satellite locals, foreign programming, Pay-per-view, porno, shopping, etc. channels available on Dish Network, even though I only use about 50 of them.

Good Luck!


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## Cerradura

Zenith DTT900


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## DianaMo

bicker said:


> Reliability will improve. Energy consumption will decrease.


I am wondering how much electricity the new digital tuners will use.

Imagine the non-greenness of having everyone who wants to watch tv be required to use either a digital tuner or cable/satellite box...


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## classicsat

The CECBs must draw <8W in use, 2W in Standby, and have auto power off (but can have a disable option). As electronics advance, it could mean even lesser draw.


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## gastrof

classicsat said:


> ...As electronics advance, it could mean even lesser draw.


But not for units already manufactured and purchased.

Also, as electronics advance, it'll be less and less common to find digital converters, as all new TVs will be made with digital tuners built in, and the need to accomodate analog sets will lessen, it finally becoming unnecessary all together. 

I now want ice cream.


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## bicker

If energy consumption is an overriding factor, then folks should replace the televisions, eh?


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## DTV Master

Guys I have found a lot of converter box reviews. It seems like a personal blog of some buy that just decided to test a bunch of them.

DTV Converter Box Reviews

I'm not sure what the rules are on links but them seem pretty easy so I might post links to each individual review later.


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## dwit

Funny that no one has posted here that the Tivo software updates and support for the converter boxes is now available. (Or maybe I just missed it?)

Just found this out today and connected my Apex box to my Tivo 540040. The box to Tivo uses a s-video connection, and the Tivo to television connection is also s-video.

Picture quality is pretty much fantastic. Way better than I imagined. It's at least as good, and possibly better than Comcast sd digital cable on my Tivo HD.


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## DTV Master

Hey everybody, I found great reviews for some of the most popular converter boxes out there. I hope its okay to post links to them. I figured it is since that other guy did it in this thread.

I hope this helps you all out

Dish Network DTVPal
Dish Network TR-40 CRA
Dish Network DTVPal Plus
Tivax stb-t8
Tivax stb-t9
RCA DTA800B1
Channel Master CM-7000


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## dwit

DTV Master said:


> Hey everybody, I found great reviews for some of the most popular converter boxes out there. I hope its okay to post links to them. I figured it is since that other guy did it in this thread.
> 
> I hope this helps you all out
> 
> Dish Network DTVPal
> Dish Network TR-40 CRA
> Dish Network DTVPal Plus
> Tivax stb-t8
> Tivax stb-t9
> RCA DTA800B1
> Channel Master CM-7000


Looks more like sales literature than user reviews. Unless I'm missing something.


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## DTV Master

I thought they were all good reviews. They are definately selling converter boxes through an affiliate too but they give good ratings for the best ones and there are some bad ratings in there also, its just that I only posted links to some of the top converter boxes that all have good ratings.

I thought they were pretty fair reviews, maybe not though.


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## dwit

ok, My apologies. I see now that there *are *actual reviews there(for some). The first one I clicked on, the ChannelMaster, only led to another link which was to the sales page.

ChannelMaster was really about the only one I was interested in, as to me, s-video is almost a must.


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