# Dual-Tuner Series2 TiVo coming soon



## tazzftw (Mar 26, 2005)

Someone mentioned this in another thread, and I felt that it's own. If it's indeed a repeat, shut er down.

The TCD649180. Also at Digg Me. From Amazon.com:

Does not support recording from two digital cable or satellite channels at once 
Record shows from two basic cable channels, or one basic cable and one digital cable channel, at once. 
Up to 180 hours recording capacity 
Includes Ethernet and USB ports, so connecting to your home network is a snap

So not only is it two tuners, but it'll allow one digital channel. I'm not sure how that'll work, but I'm very intrigued.

In my cart, it's listed at $331.55. No release date, but I'm guessing right after the April lifetime deadline.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Holy crap! An ethernet port too!

I wonder how long this stays up before TiVo gets Amazon to pull it (and this thread). I bet this was posted before it was supposed to be.


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## tazzftw (Mar 26, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Holy crap! An ethernet port too!
> 
> I wonder how long this stays up before TiVo gets Amazon to pull it (and this thread). I bet this was posted before it was supposed to be.


For what reason?

I see this as the Series3 alternative for those without HD.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

tazzftw said:


> For what reason?
> 
> I see this as the Series3 alternative for those without HD.


Because it hasn't been announced yet. Companies like to announce their own prodcuts to the public with press releases and fanfare. This seems to be a pretty big step for Tivo. They don't want it to be announced by Amazon putting up a page before it's ready.


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

Amazon is not alone, though.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2003-45,GGLD:en&q=TCD649180


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

ThreeSoFar said:


> Amazon is not alone, though.
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2003-45,GGLD:en&q=TCD649180


Again, a manufactures has to tell it's retailers about products they are shipping well in advance. But retailers are supposed to keep their mouths shut. Amazon goofed (as did those couple other places).


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## tazzftw (Mar 26, 2005)

Or perhaps a press release is coming this week. Who knows.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

ThreeSoFar said:


> Amazon is not alone, though.
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2003-45,GGLD:en&q=TCD649180


Most of those guys are pretty obscure, but I also saw it on Buy.com. Nothing on Best Buy or Circuit City. FYI Amazon is also taking pre-orders on the TiVo Wireless Adapter... cool!



tazzftw said:


> Or perhaps a press release is coming this week. Who knows.


Now that the cat is out of the bag, I would think we'll see one whether it was originally scheduled for now or later.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

There is also an 80-hour version of this box:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...-1354103-4355813?_encoding=UTF8&s=electronics

On sale for $236.

Big news for TiVo.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> There is also an 80-hour version of this box


Makes me wonder if the current S2 is going away...


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## tazzftw (Mar 26, 2005)

As far as me getting one though (or a S3), it's all dependent on how well my Tivo works with a cable box. I'll be forced in using the IR Blaster this fall. 

And I'm still wondering about the bundle price.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

tazzftw said:


> So not only is it two tuners, but it'll allow one digital channel. I'm not sure how that'll work, but I'm very intrigued.


I'm guessing it will work exactly like it does now: IR blasters or serial cable to your cable box, AV input to the TiVo. The analog channels come in through the coax cable.

Just a guess. But one I'd put money on.


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## tazzftw (Mar 26, 2005)

Oh allright. I havn't used a cable box with a Tivo, so I wasn't sure.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

I bet a single coax input is split to two analog tuners. Maybe one tuner is also QAM, but can't handle HD.

Plus, analog (S/composite) inputs accept a channel from an STB which could be digital.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVo could also use a QAM tuner for HD converted to SD using the LSI chips in this post and the next one... http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3878298&&#post3878298


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> I bet a single coax input is split to two analog tuners.


I think this will be the case for one of the scenarios... which would work well for me since I have analog cable and no box. (And a fiance who cancels most of my recordings.)


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## TechDreamer (Jan 27, 2002)

Why not two S-Video inputs recording at the same time?
I don't get it.


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## ebf (Mar 21, 2005)

Sounds nice... Just makes me miss the chance at Lifetime for it!


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TechDreamer said:


> Why not two S-Video inputs recording at the same time?
> I don't get it.


Implies 2 cable boxes...that's the hard part to control...but who knows what they came up with.


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## ebf (Mar 21, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> Implies 2 cable boxes...that's the hard part to control...but who knows what they came up with.





amazon product page said:


> # Does not support recording from two digital cable or satellite channels at once
> # Record shows from two basic cable channels, or one basic cable and one digital cable channel, at once.


There's your answer!


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

tazzftw said:


> In my cart, it's listed at $331.55. No release date, but I'm guessing right after the April lifetime deadline.


Probably the box mentioned in this thread http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=292759 that Tivo are trying to get out this week.


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## Troy J B (Sep 27, 2003)

We knew a box like this coming, the existing S2 cannot be manufactured after Mar 2007 due to the analog broadcast phase-out laws and the S2's lack of a ATSC/QAM tuner. 

I would have expected TiVo to release a higher priced S3, before releasing the refreshed S2. Doing the refreshed S2 1st makes me think we will see a reasonable price for the S3 later this year.


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## tazzftw (Mar 26, 2005)

petew said:


> Probably the box mentioned in this thread http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3893556#post3893556 that Tivo are trying to get out this week.


Why did you link me to this current thread?


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Well.. Zeo can vouch for it.. shame that I only changed my sig last week.. but I predicted something like this coming this year.. basically arguing it would be based roughly on the TIVO Greater China boxes we saw introduced in Taiwan in the fall.

When the larger capacity boxes started disappearing from stock everywhere.. I suspected we might see something like this.

Interesting tho.. very interesting.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

I wonder if this box (the 80-hour version) will sell at the same bundled pricing as the current 80-hour box (which I assume is at the end of its life now)? That wouldn't be bad.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

My speculation: Description is Series2 DT, ATSC Tuners downconverted to SD (to comply with FCC requirements..) Too bad it doesn't do HD, but this should be a pretty good picture, recording the Digital source...

Should we go ahead and nickname it the Series 2.75?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> I wonder if this box (the 80-hour version) will sell at the same bundled pricing as the current 80-hour box (which I assume is at the end of its life now)? That wouldn't be bad.


That would make the bundled pricing sensible...


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## Curtis (Dec 2, 2003)

I wonder if this is in lieu of an SD Cablecard TiVo. 

Why did they even mention satellite?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Curtis said:


> I wonder if this is in lieu of an SD Cablecard TiVo.
> 
> Why did they even mention satellite?


In lieu of? No. In addition to before they release it later? Yeah.

2) b/c you can plug a sat receiver into it like any other source.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

tazzftw said:


> Why did you link me to this current thread?


OOps Meant to link to this one: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=292759


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Nice find guys.

I added them to separate carts, just to see what it'd say for both:

"Estimated ship date for this item: May 26, 2006"

Of course, that can change.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Found my prediction.. from this thread here.. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=275076&p=3562825

"I suspect the hardware you see listed in this (linked above) thread could very well be the future of the standard definition hardware in North America. Higher resolution video, bigger processor, more memory, bigger harddrive, probably better encoding chips and possibly even MP4 support (?!).. and with 160 GB of storage.. would nicely replace the 140 hr unit... "

Also the stats posted in that thread for the Taiwan box upon which these boxes *might* be based...

160 GB HD
1 Ethernet port, standard RJ45
2 USB 2.0 ports, future use to support storage installation
mpeg2 encoding
720x540 resolution !
standard SD video inputs and outputs Svideo, composite.
no "optical" audio- assume that means no 5.1 dolby.
14 day guide


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## ievolve (Mar 26, 2006)

I bought for of the single tuner series 2 80 hour units on March 9... 

Anyone have any idea if I can return 3 of the units (the ones without the lifetime) and pick up some dual tuner units. Can those be activated with the multiple unit discount?

BTW - called tivo and they were pretty upset that people were calling them like mad right now on a product they "have no knowlege of" they even told me that nothing other than whats on there site now would be coming before December... hehe, ya right!


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## GadgetGav (Dec 11, 2001)

Wow... way to go Tivo. How many people just rushed out and either bought new boxes or switched their current box onto Lifetime because of the deadline. Then drop this on them just when they've all decided to tie themselves to old hardware, probably thinking that they didn't need an HD S3 and that the S2 was as evolved as it would get with the S3 on the horizon.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Oh for those with whom I discussed (in another thread) how a leak of a potential announcement can create havoc for a company.. here's an example of a leak doing just that.

As for 'way to go TIVO' sarcastic comments.. remember, its not as though those consumers who got lifetime on S2 hardware could actually tie these new boxes to lifetime.. and besides.. purchasers made a decision, whether they realized it or not, that lifetime would outweigh the benefits that new hardware might bring.

It's not TIVO's fault if some people didn't think that thru.

If they really want the new hardware, they are more than welcome to E-Bay those lifetime units and pick up one of the new ones.

J


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

Is there any reason to think that there won't be a cablecard slot on this new box?

Two analog tuners and one cablecard tuner. That would fit the description on the amazon site.

No serial connection. No ir blasters. No cable box at all!


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

GadgetGav said:


> Wow... way to go Tivo. How many people just rushed out and either bought new boxes or switched their current box onto Lifetime because of the deadline. Then drop this on them just when they've all decided to tie themselves to old hardware, probably thinking that they didn't need an HD S3 and that the S2 was as evolved as it would get with the S3 on the horizon.


The moment this broke I knew it was a matter of a handful of hours before the "hey, I just bought Lifetime on the old box" comments started.


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## Hew (Apr 18, 2004)

Wow, this is great news. 

This is perfect for consumers who don't yet have HD and aren't thinking of buying HD until it gets dirt cheap. I being one of those consumers can't wait to get more info on if there will be a DVDR model, if this product will be bundled with service and when it will ship.

So I haven't put it in my Amazon shopping cart yet, but when the official announcement is made I will definatly get one.

A couple of years from now when I finally get HD will I be able to view HD content on the Series 2 DT?


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## JoeBarbs (Dec 1, 2003)

hmm wonder how much I could get for both my 225hr non lifetimed 540 boxes on eBay.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

jmoak said:


> Is there any reason to think that there won't be a cablecard slot on this new box?
> 
> Two analog tuners and one cablecard tuner. That would fit the description on the amazon site.
> 
> No serial connection. No ir blasters. No cable box at all!


The comment on the amazon website "Does not support recording from two digital cable or satellite channels at once " would suggest support for a single Digital Cable or Satellite source which would be two analog tuners and support for one cable/Satellite box with one set of IR blaster. This would also be consistent with the Taiwan box specs.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

jmoak said:


> Is there any reason to think that there won't be a cablecard slot on this new box?
> 
> Two analog tuners and one cablecard tuner. That would fit the description on the amazon site.
> 
> No serial connection. No ir blasters. No cable box at all!


There certainly could be a cable card slot as a companion to the QAM. That would be best so folks can get encrypted digital channels.


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## Troy J B (Sep 27, 2003)

Hew said:


> A couple of years from now when I finally get HD will I be able to view HD content on the Series 2 DT?


Unclear since the detailed specifications are not out, maybe downrezzed to SD quality. 
If you want HD quality though you need a Series 3 (or beyond).


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## Curtis (Dec 2, 2003)

jmoak said:


> Is there any reason to think that there won't be a cablecard slot on this new box?


TiVo isn't Cablecard certified yet.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Interesting... too bad I never thought to pick up a lifetime gift card before they were yanked. I quickly checked at a Best Buy yesterday and saw none. They only had 3 and 12 month gift cards.


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

GadgetGav said:


> Wow... way to go Tivo. How many people just rushed out and either bought new boxes or switched their current box onto Lifetime because of the deadline. Then drop this on them just when they've all decided to tie themselves to old hardware, probably thinking that they didn't need an HD S3 and that the S2 was as evolved as it would get with the S3 on the horizon.


*sigh*

Yup, I was thinking the same. Just the kind of sneaky, underhanded, consumer hateful brand of corporate shysterism we've been seeing from TiVo of late.

bravo.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

ThreeSoFar said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Yup, I was thinking the same. Just the kind of sneaky, underhanded, consumer hateful brand of corporate shysterism we've been seeing from TiVo of late.
> 
> bravo.


Since offering lifetime on new boxes was NOT going to be an option - just what exactly would have suggested they do?

I would really like to know.

J


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

So, this is basically a 180 hour version of the current series 2 that adds:

1. Ethernet port
2. A second tuner that only works with a basic cable/antenna connection to the RF input.

Is that about it?


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Well if it matches the TIVO China box.. it also has a faster processor, slightly more RAM and a higher resolution of recording.

And you can record either :

two analog channels

Or

one analog and one 'S-VID/Composite' input at the same time.

J


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Another issue is the service fee. Will the service fee be higher for dual tuner units? Many of us have multiple SA units to get more tuners. If TiVo charge the same fee for single and dual tuner units, that wouldn't be "fair".


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

What's the benefit of a digital tuner if the signal already passes through a digital box? It's converted to analog at that point, no?


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

c3 said:


> Another issue is the service fee. Will the service fee be higher for dual tuner units? Many of us have multiple SA units to get more tuners. If TiVo charge the same fee for single and dual tuner units, that wouldn't be "fair".


You have GOT to be kidding. How's this for unfair.. DirecTV TIVO users have dual tuners in every receiver and only pay 5$ a month. That's unfair..

J


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

c3 said:


> Another issue is the service fee. Will the service fee be higher for dual tuner units? Many of us have multiple SA units to get more tuners. If TiVo charge the same fee for single and dual tuner units, that wouldn't be "fair".


It's more than fair to me... I'll ebay my other units (in fact my SD-H400 is already up). The service fee covers the guide data per unit, not the amount of tuners in a given unit is my guess.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> What's the benefit of a digital tuner if the signal already passes through a digital box? It's converted to analog at that point, no?


Kind of. At the moment we are largely at the mercy of an Amazon pre-release product description which may be total BS.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

davezatz said:


> Makes me wonder if the current S2 is going away...


Seeing as stocks have been dwindling, I would bet on it. It costs money to keep two production lines running and continuing to produce just the 80 hour S2 when there are 80/160 S2DT units doesn't make much sense. Switching to one new platform gives better economies of scale.

Once these new boxes are officially announced (I really think someone screwed up with this one and it shouldn't have hit merchants yet) any existing stocks of the old boxes will probably be discounted.

I doubt these boxes have any native digital cable or CableCARD support - as has been pointed out, TiVo isn't listed as CC certified by CableLabs yet and the indications are the 'Series3' naming is for the CableCARD/digital cable/HD boxes.

Remember the deal TiVo has with the NCTA to promote TiVo to rural cable MSOs, which are nearly all analog only? This is their cable DVR, I'd bet on it.

From the little info on the merchant sites, it does rather sound like the TGC box, with a tuner upgrade to dual tuners.

The descriptions also only talk about cable and satellite, no mention of ATSC or antenna at all - if it did ATSC I'd really think that'd be mentioned. And if it doesn't do ATSC, with the FCC mandate for March 2007, it probably doesn't do NTSC. I've said it a few times before - I could see TiVo dropping antenna support on the 'low end' boxes to comply with the FCC rules, leaving the Series3 to handle it.


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

lajohn27 said:


> Well if it matches the TIVO China box.. it also has a faster processor, slightly more RAM and a higher resolution of recording.


That'd be a plus, but not worth it for those of us waiting on S3s, or those Comcast/Moto customers that might be getting Comcast Tivo.



> And you can record either :
> 
> two analog channels
> 
> ...


Right. In both cases one of the channels must be analog RF. So unless you have a usable analog cable feed it's essentially still a single-tuner box. Which BTW is fine by me, I realize why a more useful second tuner isn't practical. If they can add a second tuner, even a crippled one for as little as the Amazon page suggests then more power to them. I'm just wondering how many people this half-tuner will help, vs how many it will just confuse.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Kind of. At the moment we are largely at the mercy of an Amazon pre-release product description which may be total BS.


A similar pre-release BS description can be found on Buy.com too:
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=202456878&loc=111&sp=1



> Uses hard disk instead of video tape
> Records from 2 basic cable channels or 1 basic cable & 1 digital cable channel
> Up to 180-hr recording capacity
> Ethernet & USB ports
> Requires TiVo® subscription


DIGG DIGG DIGG


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

lajohn27 said:


> You have GOT to be kidding. How's this for unfair.. DirecTV TIVO users have dual tuners in every receiver and only pay 5$ a month. That's unfair..
> 
> J


No, I'm not kidding. Right now TiVo gets $x per tuner from me. If I replace my hardware with dual tuner units, I would need only half as many units. If TiVo charges the same amount per unit, then TiVo would get only half as much in service fees.

DirecTV has a totally different business model and has nothing to do with SA TiVos.


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## tazzftw (Mar 26, 2005)

lajohn27 said:


> Since offering lifetime on new boxes was NOT going to be an option - just what exactly would have suggested they do?
> 
> I would really like to know.
> 
> J


Meh, these people are always going to be bitter at TiVo for ending lifetime.

New hardware comes out. BOO! NO LIFETIME!
When S3 comes out. BOO! NO LIFETIME!


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> What's the benefit of a digital tuner if the signal already passes through a digital box? It's converted to analog at that point, no?


It'd be just like today's Series2. The cable box tunes it and outputs analog, the TiVo takes that in A/V and encodes it to record. S-Video is the best quality. The quality is still very good. The benefit is simply being able to record digital channels, just like today. And without the expense of CableCARD. People who want that can wait for the Series3, but for most people with existing TVs it will be fine.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

c3 said:


> No, I'm not kidding. Right now TiVo gets $x per tuner from me. If I replace my hardware with dual tuner units, I would need only half as many units. If TiVo charges the same amount per unit, then TiVo would get only half as much in service fees.
> 
> DirecTiVo has a totally different business model and has nothing to do with SA TiVos.


Well then, you would be well advised to replace your units to lower your monthly costs... Wouldn't you?

I think Megazone hit it on the head when he pointed out this is for the NCTA based analog cable systems.. primarily.

J


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## Toshirick (Mar 19, 2006)

How many of you have Pre-Ordered this unit?


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## tazzftw (Mar 26, 2005)

I didn't. I want to see if there'll be a bundle plan.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

c3 said:


> Another issue is the service fee. Will the service fee be higher for dual tuner units? Many of us have multiple SA units to get more tuners. If TiVo charge the same fee for single and dual tuner units, that wouldn't be "fair".


Why not? Products change and evolve. The Series1 doesn't have any networking support and the software remains on 3.x, the service fee is the same as a Series2. The DirecTiVo untis have dual tuners, and are $5 or $6 as month (depends on when you subbed) - and that's per account, not per box.

HMO originally cost $99 for the first box, $49 for each additional - and some of us paid for it. (3 boxes for me.) Then it was made free.

There is competition out there, TiVo needs to continue to improve their hardware and software to compete. Now that nearly all satellite and cable DVRs have dual tuners, it is important for TiVo to have a product to compete - and the Series2DT looks like the first salvo. The Series3 will go for the higher end.

You bought what was available to you at the time. Now the new model is coming out, you can always upgrade if you want. But expecting new buyers to pay more is just sour grapes.


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## tazzftw (Mar 26, 2005)

Another thing. It doesn't cost TiVo any more money a month to serve a dual-tuner than a single-tuner, since all they're providing is service updates and guide data. We pay for the extra tuner upfront in the hardware.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

DrStrange said:


> Right. In both cases one of the channels must be analog RF. So unless you have a usable analog cable feed it's essentially still a single-tuner box.


Seems like it - but remember that nearly all 'digital cable' systems are still a mix with analog up to 100 and digital over 100. So it is only an issue for conflicts where both are higher channels.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

c3 said:


> Another issue is the service fee. Will the service fee be higher for dual tuner units? Many of us have multiple SA units to get more tuners. If TiVo charge the same fee for single and dual tuner units, that wouldn't be "fair".


What's unfair about it. Guide data is guide data. How it's used doesn't affect Tivo's cost.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Gregor said:


> What's unfair about it. Guide data is guide data. How it's used doesn't affect Tivo's cost.


Then why don't I just pay TiVo for one set of guide data and copy it myself to multiple TiVo units? All of my TiVos are lifetime units anyway, so monthly fee changes wouldn't affect my current units. Charging more for more tuners makes more sense. That can be accomplished through higher hardware profit and/or service fee. Based on the elimination of lifetimer subscription, service fee is more important for TiVo.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

C3 => you are alone in this view.. pretty much. The vast majority of TIVO users would not pay a higher service fee for dual tuners other than the initial hardware cost.

Now having said that - you may get your wish in that if this rumored unit becomes a 'bundled unit' the rates may not be the same as what we've seen.

But for straight service.. the rate should be 12.95 /6.95. Anything else would not likely be very well accepted.

J


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

lajohn27 said:


> Now having said that - you may get your wish in that if this rumored unit becomes a 'bundled unit' the rates may not be the same as what we've seen.


I'm with megazone on this... I think the current 80 unit goes away and the 80HR flavor of the dual tuner funcionality box is its replacement. Meaning we should be able to get it for $16.95/mo for 3 years. Which is not such a bad proposition if you still have SD (maybe even if you don't - many channels aren't broadcast in HD yet).


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

A common thread on this forum has always been "I have an older product so it's unfair when they release a newer one with newer features."


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> A common thread on this forum has always been "I have an older product so it's unfair when they release a newer one with newer features."


Well, this is a little different.

Change the rules to encourage a bunch of people to eat up the last of your old hardware.

Then release the new hardware without the ability to lifetime.

Underhanded. Sneaky.

Profitable? Sure.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

ThreeSoFar said:


> Well, this is a little different.
> 
> Change the rules to encourage a bunch of people to eat up the last of your old hardware.
> 
> Then release the new hardware without the ability to lifetime.


Seems to me those are offsetting conditions. You can get the old hardware with lifetime or the new without. Anybody who reacted to the end of lifetime announcement -- as I did -- is still within the 30-day return window. If they want to turn in their boxes and wait for the new one, they can. I'm not going to. I like my new setup, and now I'll wait for the S3 so I can have HD.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ThreeSoFar said:


> Well, this is a little different.
> 
> Change the rules to encourage a bunch of people to eat up the last of your old hardware.
> 
> ...


Hmm. Most customers do not even know of the new bundled plans or the removing of the lifetime option. Sure people on this forum knew, but that is a small minority of TiVo users. I really doubt they saw much increase in sales because of the change of pricing options to benefit them.


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## J4yDubs (Jul 3, 2002)

ThreeSoFar said:


> Change the rules to encourage a bunch of people to eat up the last of your old hardware.
> Then release the new hardware without the ability to lifetime.
> Underhanded. Sneaky.
> Profitable? Sure.


Huh? TiVo isn't supposed to release new hardware now that lifetime is going away?

So let me get this straight. TiVo doesn't have a non-DirecTV dual turner box and people complain about it. TiVo apparently is coming out with a dual tuner (non S3) box and people complain about it. Unbelievable.

If your current TiVo hardware is somehow not as good as it once was because of this pending announcement, sell it and get one of these. If lifetime is more important to you, then keep it and be happy you got it before it was gone.

TiVo didn't force you to do anything. You thought there was value so you pulled the trigger.

John


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

ThreeSoFar said:


> Well, this is a little different.
> 
> Change the rules to encourage a bunch of people to eat up the last of your old hardware.
> 
> ...


Of course, at the same time people are damning TiVo for not making a bigger deal out of lifetime going away and notifying all of their users with a PTCM about it. If this was meant to be underhanded and sneaky, they've done a piss-poor job of it! And your logic is bizarre - they are dumping lifetime because it is *bad for them*, why would they try to encourage people to run out and snap up boxes to lifetime? You can't have it both ways.

First they're trying to sneak in dropping lifetime so people *don't* have the chance to get it, now they're trying to use dropping lifetime to make people rush out and get it!

I'm sure the plan was to drop lifetime before the new boxes came out, so there would never be lifetime on the new HW - that makes sense.

As for the new hardware being a surprise - just how many threads have there been about new hardware and how something must be coming soon? It has been fairly obvious from the vanishing 40 and 140 hour units, and the dwindling stocks of 80 hour units, that the channel was being flushed for *something*. And since the Series3 has been repeatedly stated to not be coming out until late in the year, a Series2 refresh has been the best candidate.

If you just bought a new box with, or without, lifetime - you have 30 days to return it for full money back.

If you put lifetime on an old box, well, lifetime cards on eBay are going for well over the retail price. If you eBay the box soon, before the general press touts the S2DT, or before the official announcement, I'm sure you can find some sucker, I mean, buyer to take it off your hands for more than the cost of lifetime - then use the money for the new box.

Like I said, if this was a devious scheme by TiVo, they're really not very good at being underhanded.


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## W Auggie H (Oct 11, 2001)

****... I've been focused on S3 so much lately that I totally missed this potential move by TiVo. TiVo Tuner Duo! - Hell Yeah, sign me up. Thanks TiVo for slipping one by me and getting me excited again about one of my most favorite things, TiVo!


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

I googled:


TIVO TCD649080 SERIES2(TM) DT 80-HOUR DVR - $241.98 and $199.98


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## ebf (Mar 21, 2005)

amazon said:


> Includes Ethernet and USB ports, so connecting to your home network is a snap


What's the USB port for if there is built-in ethernet? External drives? Here's hoping...


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## Prozium (Sep 20, 2004)

ebf said:


> What's the USB port for if there is built-in ethernet? External drives? Here's hoping...


It's for the tivo wireless adapter (or any other USB 802.11b/g adapter).


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Curtis said:


> TiVo isn't Cablecard certified yet.


How do you know this?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

lajohn27 said:


> Since offering lifetime on new boxes was NOT going to be an option - just what exactly would have suggested they do?
> 
> I would really like to know.
> 
> J


I think it's not worth responding to the ridiculous statements with regards to Lifetime or underhanded tactics at TiVo - which don't exist in my opinion.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

megazone said:


> .... HMO originally cost $99 for the first box, $49 for each additional - and some of us paid for it. (3 boxes for me.) Then it was made free.


Add me to that club  

Products evolve, and usually incorporate additional features for the same or sometimes even less money. That's life.

Should I tell you how much I paid for four *megs* of ram for my 386SX


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

I am ready to upgrade the hard drive to (2) 500GB


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

GadgetGav said:


> Wow... way to go Tivo. How many people just rushed out and either bought new boxes or switched their current box onto Lifetime because of the deadline. Then drop this on them just when they've all decided to tie themselves to old hardware, probably thinking that they didn't need an HD S3 and that the S2 was as evolved as it would get with the S3 on the horizon.


And a few days ago, everyone was b*tching because Tivo only gave people a week's notice ... then they extended it another month and people are still complaining.

With the Taiwan box and the recent blowout pricing at the major retailers, and the March 2007 digital tuner requirements, you didn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that an S2+ was coming ... I'm a little surprised it's coming before the S3, but that's about it.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

.I'm torn I coud replace my=t two series 2s with two new dt boxs , loose rtitingm nqne 3ij=wrokm = y my wy u ot un te wirkd,, - adn tgere;s no dowside , 'just an in place imrovement,not a bad idea. ]]

But tere againm, the wait for a true S3 cant't be wquute that long.mand wiukd avsokute everythung ekses assuging yoiu do have a acceotabke HDTV, Decidision, decisisions. 

But - you cnannot foult tivo at al for thier practicaes in generall. They want to sekk a new box. So thu want the pipeline of old boxes slimmed donw, push em out. clear some room,and then push thenew. It's thr same tatic employeed by every other companty out there. It's what computer companes and car sailesmen have in common.

Words, seeming to stsrt to wave a dn weave about the screen, very difficult to tink. But we have Good - it remplaces the series 2. All good, no bad. Then we have more good, Series 3 on the way. All is good.

Edit: This post broght to you by some wicketd Perscriptoin medicitaction. 

-Ken


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

megazone said:


> It'd be just like today's Series2. The cable box tunes it and outputs analog, the TiVo takes that in A/V and encodes it to record. S-Video is the best quality. The quality is still very good. The benefit is simply being able to record digital channels, just like today. And without the expense of CableCARD. People who want that can wait for the Series3, but for most people with existing TVs it will be fine.


Doesn't a digital tuner imply that you'll be able to tune digital channels without the need for an external box, unlike what the S2 can do.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

jfh3 said:


> Doesn't a digital tuner imply that you'll be able to tune digital channels without the need for an external box, unlike what the S2 can do.


If the new box conatins a digital tuner, it would be able to "tune" (decode) digital signals. If the new TiVo is advertised as having a digital tuner, and it can't decode a digital signal, then that's misleading (false) advertising.

IMO, the descriptions on Amazon etc. _are_ misleading, because they state the ability to record a digital channel. There is no mention of an external decoder as necessary to do this. I consider this misleading.

We'll have to wait until TiVo officially announces the product to find out for sure. Until then, they get the benefit, of being innocent


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> Doesn't a digital tuner imply that you'll be able to tune digital channels without the need for an external box, unlike what the S2 can do.


It doesn't say 'digital tuner'. This is what the Amazon page says:


> # Does not support recording from two digital cable or satellite channels at once
> # Record shows from two basic cable channels, or one basic cable and one digital cable channel, at once.
> # Up to 80 hours recording capacity
> # Includes Ethernet and USB ports, so connecting to your home network is a snap


No where does it say the box itself has a digital tuner, just that it can record from one digital cable channel at a time. Well, so can the current Series2 - with a cable box. Note that satellite is also mentioned, but surely you wouldn't think the box has a satellite tuner as well.

To me it sounds like the TGC box, with a new tuner module that can tune two analog channels at once. Probably still one encoder, just one capable of multiple streams.

I would put money down *against* the box having a digital tuner.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

DCIFRTHS said:


> IMO, the descriptions on Amazon etc. _are_ misleading, because they state the ability to record a digital channel. There is no mention of an external decoder as necessary to do this. I consider this misleading.


All TiVos have been advertised as handling digital cable - with a box. A little blurb for an unreleased box on Amazon isn't going to be comprehensive. If it had a QAM or CableCARD tuner, I'd expect that to be listed. And I doubt anyone would sell a DVR with QAM and not CableCARD, since that'd be a mess - clear QAM is too rare.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

megazone said:


> I would put money down *against* the box having a digital tuner.


Why? Aren't they going to have to have one by March anyway? I can't imagine they'll release two refreshes of the S2 in less than a year.

Must be some interesting software changes too, to handle two "not quite equal" tuners (if some shows would be from a cable box feed and some from an analog only feed).


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

jfh3 said:


> Must be some interesting software changes too, to handle two "not quite equal" tuners (if some shows would be from a cable box feed and some from an analog only feed).


Why? The current TiVo scheduling system is very simple. They could make it smarter with the dual tuner box, but I doubt they will. Also the HR10-250 DirecTV/OTA HD receiver has "not quite equal" tuners.


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## Stylin (Dec 31, 2004)

DrStrange said:


> That'd be a plus, but not worth it for those of us waiting on S3s, or those Comcast/Moto customers that might be getting Comcast Tivo.
> 
> Right. In both cases one of the channels must be analog RF. So unless you have a usable analog cable feed it's essentially still a single-tuner box. Which BTW is fine by me, I realize why a more useful second tuner isn't practical. If they can add a second tuner, even a crippled one for as little as the Amazon page suggests then more power to them. I'm just wondering how many people this half-tuner will help, vs how many it will just confuse.


Well it's already confused me, as I'm not understanding the excat benefit of this box - except that it can record a non digital channel, and a digital at the same time. 
My logic may be incorrect, but in my case I only receive 22 non digital channels w/ my current cable box/tivo hookup (watch 1/ record another), so if I had this new box the only benefit is I would only be able to record 1 of the 22 channels, while recording any other channel? If that's the case, it's totally not worth it, and certainly not an improvement from my current S2. For ppl who receive the full 99 channel lineup, it may make sense...


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Stylin said:


> Well it's already confused me, as I'm not understanding the excat benefit of this box - except that it can record a non digital channel, and a digital at the same time.
> My logic may be incorrect, but in my case I only receive 22 non digital channels w/ my current cable box/tivo hookup (watch 1/ record another), so if I had this new box the only benefit is I would only be able to record 1 of the 22 channels, while recording any other channel? If that's the case, it's totally not worth it, and certainly not an improvement from my current S2. For ppl who receive the full 99 channel lineup, it may make sense...


The biggest feature is that you can record two channels at once. Currently, there are no TiVo boxes, from the factory, that can do that. That's *BIG* news.


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## Stylin (Dec 31, 2004)

ievolve said:


> I bought for of the single tuner series 2 80 hour units on March 9...
> 
> Anyone have any idea if I can return 3 of the units (the ones without the lifetime) and pick up some dual tuner units. Can those be activated with the multiple unit discount?
> 
> BTW - called tivo and they were pretty upset that people were calling them like mad right now on a product they "have no knowlege of" they even told me that nothing other than whats on there site now would be coming before December... hehe, ya right!


 Yeah I just bought mine also, and it's still under 30 days, but I figure I won't be able to exchange mine as I may lose the $150 rebate.
I'm think any units can be activated with msd once you already have a mian unit each additional unit qualifies...

What I'm wondering is what happens if the current S2 breaks down under warranty (since they will no longer be manufactured) - what will the replacement model be? I purchased a 3 yr warranty with my unit.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

ADent said:


> Also the HR10-250 DirecTV/OTA HD receiver has "not quite equal" tuners.


Good point - I forgot about this combo. I've got a HR10-250, but don't feed it OTA.
Guess the software to handle "not quite equal" is old news ...


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

megazone said:


> And I doubt anyone would sell a DVR with QAM and not CableCARD, since that'd be a mess - clear QAM is too rare.


Sony's new 34" XBR970 appears to have a QAM tuner without CableCard slot.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> Aren't they going to have to have one by March anyway?


They can have *zero* OTA tners and be in compliance... that's what this box sounds like.


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## dkroboth (Jan 25, 2002)

I got to give a big thumbs up for this one. I just got to figure out if I want to swap two of my individual non-upgraded/non-lifetime units for this single box. I think the decision point is going to be based on how the TiVo-To-Go/To-Comeback performs on the new box. If it's a significant speed upgrade it might be worth it. Especially, if there is some sort of new MPEG processor in the middle it (MPEG4?, be nice, but I doubt it)

Dan


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## GadgetGav (Dec 11, 2001)

HDTiVo said:


> The moment this broke I knew it was a matter of a handful of hours before the "hey, I just bought Lifetime on the old box" comments started.


That wasn't what I said. I've had Lifetime for years. I just wondered how many people had rushed to switch to Lifetime because there was a small (but extended) window in which to make that change, only to find out that there was new hardware coming along. How many people would rather have a dual tuner on a monthly plan than a single on Lifetime...



lajohn27 said:


> Since offering lifetime on new boxes was NOT going to be an option - just what exactly would have suggested they do?
> 
> I would really like to know.


My suggestion would be to annouce the new pricing structure and the new hardware on the same day so that people have all the information they need to make their decision. Simple really.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

davezatz said:


> They can have *zero* OTA tners and be in compliance... that's what this box sounds like.


If it had ZERO tuners, it wouldn't support analog cable!!

Of COURSE it will have ATSC tuners, they are REQUIRED to by law next year, their not going to release a new model without it..


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## W Auggie H (Oct 11, 2001)

I got the picture of the new box!

*TCD649180*


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## tazzftw (Mar 26, 2005)

GadgetGav said:


> That wasn't what I said. I've had Lifetime for years. I just wondered how many people had rushed to switch to Lifetime because there was a small (but extended) window in which to make that change, only to find out that there was new hardware coming along. How many people would rather have a dual tuner on a monthly plan than a single on Lifetime...


You mean like the Dual-Tuner S3 that's been revealed for months now?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ThreeSoFar said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Yup, I was thinking the same. Just the kind of sneaky, underhanded, consumer hateful brand of corporate shysterism we've been seeing from TiVo of late.
> 
> bravo.


why, because they ended a subscription option? I was posting all along that a change in pricing plans this significant usually means new hardware on the horizon, and we all certainly knew a Series 3 was on the horizon. Anyone that rushed out and Lifetimed a box would know full well they were sticking with the old hardware. 
While the Amozon description is clearly not for a sereis 3 and clearly was placed on the Amazon site ahead of any schedule TiVo may have it still is not something totally surprising and from left field.

Also , why did not people already have lifetime if they thought it such a good deal?
Why the sudden rush to it just because it is going away. Seems to me to be more people not wanting to think things through than TiVo do anything underhanded.

How many posts have I read of "I am paying the 6.95 since that takes 4 years to match 299$ and I most likely will have new hardware by then" Well welcome to 2006 when anyone who only read every third thread here knew some kind of new hardware was on the horizon


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## W Auggie H (Oct 11, 2001)

I just got word from my source that these new boxes are due by the *end for March!!!*


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

So can they make a TiVo DT with DVD+-RW DL support?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

megazone said:


> It'd be just like today's Series2. The cable box tunes it and outputs analog, the TiVo takes that in A/V and encodes it to record. S-Video is the best quality. The quality is still very good. The benefit is simply being able to record digital channels, just like today. And without the expense of CableCARD. People who want that can wait for the Series3, but for most people with existing TVs it will be fine.


Plus if they have Satellite and do some locals via cable then this box is perfect for them if they want TiVo and not the integrated box from the Sat. company.

Though I suspect the single digital feed comes down to no cable card since this box seems aimed at the analog market, that TiVo has stated many times it values, and the hassle of making two sets of IR balsters or serial cables work for two set top boxes. Besides for cable and digital the series 3 is a better solution. 
Satellite companies have clearly shown they want no part of an open standard like cable card and compete in a different way anyhow. You want satellite then you use their DVR or start petitioning for them to change their business model.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ThreeSoFar said:


> Well, this is a little different.
> 
> Change the rules to encourage a bunch of people to eat up the last of your old hardware.
> 
> ...


yes, again so few saw this coming


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dkroboth said:


> I got to give a big thumbs up for this one. I just got to figure out if I want to swap two of my individual non-upgraded/non-lifetime units for this single box. I think the decision point is going to be based on how the TiVo-To-Go/To-Comeback performs on the new box. If it's a significant speed upgrade it might be worth it. Especially, if there is some sort of new MPEG processor in the middle it (MPEG4?, be nice, but I doubt it)
> 
> Dan


I would think if it was mpeg4 capable that would be in the blurb. Amazon put this up early and before TiVo could directly announce the box and take questions here directly but, the blurb was made in conjunction with info from TiVo so if a canle card/digital tuner or mpeg4 was in the product I am sure it would be in the blurb.

clearly this is the analog cable box but why knock out the feature that works with cable or sat. digital set top boxes. and then again with the series 3 why add in the mess of another set of ir balsters/serial cable. So it stays at two analog tuners for cable - the program to accept one recording feed off of one svideo/composite adn no antenna so it is in compliance with the law for 2007.

this is your new low end box for analog folks and the best that satellite folks will get from TiVo until sat. adopts some open standard. The sereis 3 is for the folk who will pay more for two digital feeds and HD and thus the better encoder/decoder with mpeg4 included. This box also explains why the USB chips were dumbed down on the 540. now you use the ethernet port or the TiVo wireless adapter. USB will take on a new roll over time if the business model makes it have a good ROI in the form of multiple portable player choices that can hook up directly.

USB hard drives really make little sense in terms of system resources they would consume at all times. I have not really had to upgrade a TiVo hard rive yet but this is the unit I would do that on. Two tuners to record at once make for a long season pass list :up:


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## Frankenstien (Feb 8, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes, again so few saw this coming


I agree. When the S2 80 hr dropped to $70 after rebates and the S2 40 hr went away, I thought something is coming, they're clearing out the inventory.

Seems like it will be a good unit to compete with the other dual turner DVRs and will work well for the non-HD crowd.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

W Auggie H said:


> I just got word from my source that these new boxes are due by the *end for March!!!*


it would seem that way from the web sites as well. I doubt thatey would put them up too far in advance of shipment without saying so, plus they need pricing info to take orders 

Nice that this time around TiVo will be able to make an anouncement for a product that is available now.


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## mec1991 (Nov 5, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes, again so few saw this coming


Well, the vast majority of TiVo owners (who never come to this forum) most llikely did not. But I understand why it was done.

Heck, I don't need one as I am waiting for the S3, but am tempted by it.  It's not as strong as "Apple lust", but still...


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> If it had ZERO tuners, it wouldn't support analog cable!!
> 
> Of COURSE it will have ATSC tuners, they are REQUIRED to by law next year, their not going to release a new model without it..


A cable tuner is not the same as an NTSC over the air tuner. And yes, it could have two analog cable tuners and no NTSC tuning capability and be within the rules.

J


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## W Auggie H (Oct 11, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Nice that this time around TiVo will be able to make an anouncement for a product that is available now.


I agree, that is the one thing I like about Steve Jobs and Apple. When they announce a new product with all their fanfare and such, at least you can buy the product when the announcement hits.

The practice of announcing a product that is a year off...totally sucks!


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Looks like I coud actually use this new box. I've got my cable provider providing me with Internet access and as part of that deal I had to order basic cable which I don't use. So now I'll be able to record from basic cable while watching DTV or record from both. Looks like I might have jumped the gun when I recently purchased Lifetime for a Toshiba DVD-Recorder that I was using with Tivo basic. Oh well hopefully lifetime will sell well on E-Bay... Anybody want to buy an 80 hrs. with Lifetime (Not the Toshiba) for $400.00 bucks?

Y-ASK


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## Animgif (Jan 4, 2002)

mec1991 said:


> Well, the vast majority of TiVo owners (who never come to this forum) most llikely did not. But I understand why it was done.
> 
> Heck, I don't need one as I am waiting for the S3, but am tempted by it.  It's not as strong as "Apple lust", but still...


Same here...I have "Apple Lust" for this new dual-tuner, but I'm going to stick with my Sony Series 1 for now and just wait for the Series 3 to come out...yummy...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I'm still "cautiously optimistic" about this unit... but it seems like a great product for me. If it has all the same functionality as my current Series 2 TiVo but adds dual analog acble tuners, I'm gonna get it. I have no interest in the HD capability of the Series 3, only the dual tuner functionality. Since I don't have digital cable, this would be perfect for me. Hopefully it also has the same analog pass-through in stand-by mode as the current Series 2, then it can be used to record two channels while watching a third live.

Looking forward to reading more details about it!


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## jautor (Jul 1, 2001)

ADent said:


> Why? The current TiVo scheduling system is very simple. They could make it smarter with the dual tuner box, but I doubt they will. Also the HR10-250 DirecTV/OTA HD receiver has "not quite equal" tuners.


No, the HR10-250 has two sets of EQUAL tuners. There are a pair of "DirecTV/OTA-ATSC" tuner components. The unit can record any two channels (regardless of their source) at any time. Some people try to describe the box as having "4 tuners, 2 DirecTV and 2 OTA" - which is I think where the confusion comes in.

This new box would seem to have some software changes to accomodate the unequal tuner arrangement... Which is a good thing!

Jeff


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## Prozium (Sep 20, 2004)

MickeS said:


> I'm still "cautiously optimistic" about this unit... but it seems like a great product for me. If it has all the same functionality as my current Series 2 TiVo but adds dual analog acble tuners, I'm gonna get it. I have no interest in the HD capability of the Series 3, only the dual tuner functionality. Since I don't have digital cable, this would be perfect for me. Hopefully it also has the same analog pass-through in stand-by mode as the current Series 2, then it can be used to record two channels while watching a third live.
> 
> Looking forward to reading more details about it!


Just pick up a 3-way splitter. Run the cable from the wall into the splitter and then from the splitter run 2 to the tivo and one to your TV.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

W Auggie H said:


> I got the picture of the new box!
> 
> *TCD649180*


That's hawt!


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

lajohn27 said:


> A cable tuner is not the same as an NTSC over the air tuner. And yes, it could have two analog cable tuners and no NTSC tuning capability and be within the rules.
> 
> J


So let me get this straight, your telling me I can hook up an OLD FASHIONED CABLE BOX that requires me to tune to CHANNEL 3 and use it with no NTSC tuner..

Trust me, it WILL have OTA capability. They are not going to Alienate people with old cable systems or OTA only..


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Can the UMF exist on a device that hasn't even been announced? I'm feeling a UMF, now if I can just get my wife to go along...


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## Whtthfgg (Mar 27, 2006)

I just bought an 80 hr and I am thinking of returning it. I have activated it with a one year subscription. Am I going to have a problem moving this subscription to the new model?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

jmoak said:


> Is there any reason to think that there won't be a cablecard slot on this new box?
> 
> Two analog tuners and one cablecard tuner. That would fit the description on the amazon site.
> 
> No serial connection. No ir blasters. No cable box at all!


Saving costs. Also this box will have to support existing STBs (to satisfy non cable, STB based users), as the S3 won't.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Prozium said:


> Just pick up a 3-way splitter. Run the cable from the wall into the splitter and then from the splitter run 2 to the tivo and one to your TV.


I klnow, but I already have this cable split like that 3 times... the cable mess is not pretty.  The analog pass-through is a much neater solution for me.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/27/dual-tuner-tivo-pic-spotted/

Endgadget is now reporting 4 USB ports...


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

This box would have been useful to me if it was released a while ago. It could have pushed me over the edge into getting a series 2. I have basic, analog cable at home. This box would have been perfect. But the timing is no good. Much to close to the Series 3. That will be my next TiVo box.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

c3 said:


> Another issue is the service fee. Will the service fee be higher for dual tuner units? Many of us have multiple SA units to get more tuners. If TiVo charge the same fee for single and dual tuner units, that wouldn't be "fair".


I don't forsee any different service fees for the DT box, but them offering it for the same service fees on the outset as the current S2.

However, the bundle prices could be higher.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> What's the benefit of a digital tuner if the signal already passes through a digital box? It's converted to analog at that point, no?


It may be of no benefit to cable users, but there are some unencrypted channels on cable.

Most importantly, it would be compliant to the March 2007 requirement for a digital OTA TV tuner.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

W Auggie H said:


> I just got word from my source that these new boxes are due by the *end for March!!!*


If the box will be delivered by 4/15, can't people sign up lifetime for it?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Gregor said:


> What's unfair about it. Guide data is guide data. How it's used doesn't affect Tivo's cost.


I think c3's worry is that they could introduce this new DVR with a higher service fee, then raise the rate for current DVRs.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

c3 said:


> If the box will be delivered by 4/15, can't people sign up lifetime for it?


I would doubt it. The 4/15 extension was to cover boxes purchased before the end of lifetime but not yet activated. Tivo then expanded extension to any box not purchased through the new plans due to problems verifying purchase date. There's no way you could prove you'd legally bought a 649 before 3/16


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Here's hoping they have some sort of interface for multiple channel lineups for each tuner. The channel numbers for the analog channels on my lineup are completely different on the digital box than they are when the coax is directly plugged into the TV.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I too am curious how they solved the problem with different channel lineups. Maybe they simply let you do the guided setup for each tuner/source.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

c3 said:


> Then why don't I just pay TiVo for one set of guide data and copy it myself to multiple TiVo units?


Becasue the service fee covers more than just guide data, plus it is my understanding they have a license for the guide data that requires them to charge a per-box fee.

TiVo's buisness model is to get the box in people's home for as little as possible down.


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## tolian (Apr 22, 2002)

http://www.beegool.com/product_info.php?products_id=27139

This site has the 180 hour box at the lowest price listed today:

TIVO TCD649180 SERIES2(TM) DT 180-HOUR DVR
$290.99

That's cheaper than Amazon and possibly an indication of how much lower the price may go....


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Interesting, but possibly not of value to me. I have two Analog S2 units at home, both monthly.....I have basic cable (lifeline)......My service is Comcast, and I am not HD. 

My plan once the S3 was announced was to either wait it out and see what the prices are on the S3, outright and/or bundled, or to see what the roll-out of ComcasTiVo will be like. Depending on the prices of the S3, especially a bundled price, I would even consider the S3 without having HD service. 

This new box, doesn't seem to change much for me.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

megazone said:


> And I doubt anyone would sell a DVR with QAM and not CableCARD, since that'd be a mess - clear QAM is too rare.


If it has an ATSC tuner, it likely isn't too much of a stretch to do QAM.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

With the "DT80" discounted to $219 vs. the post rebate "ST80" at $69, there is as much as $150 for the extra hardware.

Plenty for mp4 playback and HD to SD downconvert. Let's hope that's there too...


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Wired transfer rates: USB vs Ethernet

Time for wild speculation: I'll take 2.75X vs the 240 series.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

HDTiVo said:


> Wired transfer rates: USB vs Ethernet
> 
> Time for wild speculation: I'll take 2.75X vs the 240 series.


which would be 5.5x vs the 540 series.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Wow! This sounds fantastic! The 180 hour is large enough that I can probably completly quit worrying about how much space I have left (my 80 hour is fine 99% of the time). Built in Ethernet is good. And FINALLY dual tuner? YAY!

The only real issue for me is...should I wait for Series 3? I don't know when I'll get an HD TV, but I wouldn't mind having the tuners, if for no other reason than I'd be set if/when our current broadcasts are shut off (plus there's a chance the OTA reception might be better with digital...although it may be worse, no idea).

Wish I knew what S3 prices are going to be. If I knew for a fact S3 was going to cost $1000 versus $300ish for this model, I'd probably just go for this, since it basically does everything I want from S3. But if I don't know about S3 prices, or they're only slightly higher (relativly), I guess it would make sense to wait.

I figure once I make it through May, my single tuner S2 can probably take me through the next TV season decently without missing too much.

EDIT: Besides the features, I love how this looks! I know technically i'ts not a big change, but somehow it's cooler looking than my Humax or the standard S2s.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think it's actually pretty likely that these units will have MPEG-4 playback ability! TiVo seems to be on the path to providing some sort of IP based VOD service and such a service makes a LOT more sense with MPEG-4 because the smaller files put a lot less stress on TiVo's servers as well as the users broadband connection. The reason it's probably not being touted as a feature is because as of right now it's useless. Until TiVo comes out with this VOD service, or updates TiVo Desktop to support MPEG-4 video via TTCB, who cares if it does MPEG-4? I mean other then us geeks who like to know the internals of everything? 

As for ATSC... If Megazone says he'd put money down on them not doing ATSC I'd be inclined to believe him. He had an extensive inside talk with the TiVo people at CES and probably knows a lot more then he lets on. Plus as others have pointed out TiVo has specifically said that they wanted to focus on the analog cable market, and that this new law does not effect the TiVo as long as it doesn't support OTA. People who really need a unit for OTA only, and want dual tuners, will have to get a S3 instead.

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

W Auggie H said:


> I just got word from my source that these new boxes are due by the *end for March!!!*


Blue Moon day, the day TiVo officially released the first TiVo back in 1999, is March 31st. Perhaps they plan to release this unit on that day as well as sort of a symbol of how far they have come in the past 7 years.

Dan


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## JohnTivo (Dec 2, 2002)

It would be nice if someone from TIVO could comment on the actual specs of the box. TivoPony are you able to comment yet?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Probably not going to happen until they make the official announcement.

Dan


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> So let me get this straight, your telling me I can hook up an OLD FASHIONED CABLE BOX that requires me to tune to CHANNEL 3 and use it with no NTSC tuner..


No, that technically, they could program the software to only tune analog cable, not NTSC OTA. 
That may be a sneaky way to get around the March 07 FCC mandate, if the FCC falls for it.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Whtthfgg said:


> I just bought an 80 hr and I am thinking of returning it. I have activated it with a one year subscription. Am I going to have a problem moving this subscription to the new model?


AFAIK, there shouldn't be, any problem, just change the TSN on your account.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> Blue Moon day, the day TiVo officially released the first TiVo back in 1999, is March 31st. Perhaps they plan to release this unit on that day as well as sort of a symbol of how far they have come in the past 7 years.
> 
> Dan


as I posted four days ago:

blue moon, blue moon
Doo-diddy-do-de-wah-wah-wah-wah-wah...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> So let me get this straight, your telling me I can hook up an OLD FASHIONED CABLE BOX that requires me to tune to CHANNEL 3 and use it with no NTSC tuner..
> 
> Trust me, it WILL have OTA capability. They are not going to Alienate people with old cable systems or OTA only..


if there was no law then sure they would look at the cost to add something vs the expected number of people *needing* it. Without the law then maybe OTA would be there. In this case a law makes adding in OTA more expensive so the ROI changes and it looks like TiVo just dropped OTA altogether for this box so they can keep selling them.

TiVo is looking at this series 2 as the low end analog solution, especially for people with analog cable- that is the core market for this box and other groups are fringe. So anything that adds cost but not a large group they drop. The "digital cable" group is really the Satellite group that TiVo looks to offer some service for with this box like the series 2 has done up till now. But it seems this is not a large enough group to go to the cost and time of adding in a second set of digital capability.

any one on digital cable or seriously wanting to record OTA will be looking to the Series 3 as the best option.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

MP4 would be handy for users who have a collection of MP4/DIVX files.. and use the home networking option.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I think it's actually pretty likely that these units will have MPEG-4 playback ability! TiVo seems to be on the path to providing some sort of IP based VOD service and such a service makes a LOT more sense with MPEG-4 because the smaller files put a lot less stress on TiVo's servers as well as the users broadband connection. The reason it's probably not being touted as a feature is because as of right now it's useless. Until TiVo comes out with this VOD service, or updates TiVo Desktop to support MPEG-4 video via TTCB, who cares if it does MPEG-4? I mean other then us geeks who like to know the internals of everything?


Well, right off the bat TiVoToCome&Go could support mp4 based transfers from the PC, and video podcasts could be supported ala the audio podcast feature on the current boxes.

I put minimal stock in the feature description from Amazon. I don't take the lack of a feature mentioned to in any way indicate it won't be there.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Perhaps they plan to release this unit on that day as well as sort of a symbol of how far they have come in the past 7 years.


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## W Auggie H (Oct 11, 2001)

This may have been answered already, but what would make the Series3 box so much more expensive than this new Dual Tuner Series2? Where is the extra cost, other than hard drive space? Is adding 2 cable-card slots expensive? I know that the guts are a bit different but I don't know enough about it to understand why the Series3 would be 2x or 3x times the cost.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

BTW, no longer available for pre-order at Amazon.


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## JohnTivo (Dec 2, 2002)

Not that I'm in the know, but I would assume that the actual cost to manufacture the series3 will not be that much more than DT series2. But with the series3, there will be the added cost of R&D and the cost to get the licensing for the cablecard cert. I also believe there is an added cost to get the HDMI cert.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

W Auggie H said:


> This may have been answered already, but what would make the Series3 box so much more expensive than this new Dual Tuner Series2? Where is the extra cost, other than hard drive space? Is adding 2 cable-card slots expensive?


well there is the cable card expense as it means a more comprehensive set of tuners in the series 3. Mpeg 4 added capability, which is a highly touted feature on the series 3, also comes at the expense of a costlier endcoder/decoder

there is the serial ATA port adn also the font panel has a lot more detail than the standard black plastic front and simple LEDs of the series 2DT pictured.

not to mention the code to tie all of that togetehr is brand new code and that does not come cheap. The S2DT talked about in this thread really has the added cost of an analog tuner with no OTA ability to kind of offset that cost. The code most likely is a remake of the DirectTV code to deal with the unique tuenr setup of 2 analog or 1 analog/1 digital but still a LOT less new code would be needed.

edit to add - plus based on Auggie's picture - it looks like only a small amount of retooling to start making these instead of a single tuner


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## W Auggie H (Oct 11, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well there is the cable card expense as it means a more comprehensive set of tuners in the series 3. Mpeg 4 added capability, which is a highly touted feature on the series 3, also comes at the expense of a costlier endcoder/decoder
> 
> there is the serial ATA port adn also the font panel has a lot more detail than the standard black plastic front and simple LEDs of the series 2DT pictured.
> 
> not to mention the code to tie all of that togetehr is brand new code and that does not come cheap....


True, when you add it up I can start to get a better understanding. Thanks ZeoTiVo...


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Ugh, I hope this has support for over the air. I'd be shocked if it didn't, but if the cut off is next year, it almost seems like it would have to have HD tuners (and record everything at 480 regardless of the native resolution).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

W Auggie H said:


> This may have been answered already, but what would make the Series3 box so much more expensive than this new Dual Tuner Series2? Where is the extra cost, other than hard drive space? Is adding 2 cable-card slots expensive? I know that the guts are a bit different but I don't know enough about it to understand why the Series3 would be 2x or 3x times the cost.


There are major differences in hardware. The S3 units not only have a bigger hard drive but ATSC/QAM cabale tuners, CableCARD slots, an HDTV capable decoder chip, component and HDMI outputs and eSATA port for external hard drive support. While those individual parts may not add up to a ton the R&D involved in making it all work probably does. Not to mention any licensing fees that they have to pay to get CableCARD certification.

That being said there has been no official announcement as to the price of the S3 units, so it's possible they could be considerably cheaper then we all expect.

Dan


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## tazzftw (Mar 26, 2005)

Puppy76 said:


> Ugh, I hope this has support for over the air. I'd be shocked if it didn't, but if the cut off is next year, it almost seems like it would have to have HD tuners (and record everything at 480 regardless of the native resolution).


Now I'm starting to get worried. For the most part, I don't use a cable box. Just the RF cable. Will this work for me?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

tazzftw said:


> Now I'm starting to get worried.


Worrying is like paying interest in advance on a debt that never comes due.

-Mamet


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

JohnTivo said:


> Not that I'm in the know, but I would assume that the actual cost to manufacture the series3 will not be that much more than DT series2. But with the series3, there will be the added cost of R&D and the cost to get the licensing for the cablecard cert. I also believe there is an added cost to get the HDMI cert.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3895585&&#post3895585


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

As I understand it, the RF that comes through the cable is different than the RF that comes through an antenna. What some posters are saying is that maybe TiVo disabled the "OTA RF" tuning on this unit, since that is where the 2007 requirement applies, and left the "cable RF" tuning intact.

An I understand this correctly? If a cable box was required in all cases, this would be a serious disappointment. I would certainly not buy it.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

tazzftw said:


> Now I'm starting to get worried. For the most part, I don't use a cable box. Just the RF cable. Will this work for me?


The entire point seems to be that one or both of the tuners is an internal RF tuner inside the TiVo. This unit can only control one cable box. The second tuner must be RF. The first tuner can be RF or cable box.

The distinction people are drawing in the thread is between RF cable (on the one hand) and RF OTA broadcast (on the other).


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Went back to the TGC box pictures on Zatz site... http://www.zatznotfunny.com/PSN/tivoGC.htm ...
All I see is a 240 style front and an ethernet port on the back.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Kind of weird if the effect of the digital tuner OTA requirement will be that manufacturers decide to, at least initially, completely take out OTA tuning. Talk about backfiring. Or maybe it's just TiVo that does this, considering they'e very small compared to their CE colleagues.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo probably has extensive data as to how many of their customers use TiVos for OTA. I'm sure that if they did decide to go this route it's probably because they make up a very small percentage of their customer base.

Also if this is true you will still be able to use this unit to tune 2-13 OTA provided the local cable lineup matches the channel numbers. (which it does in most areas) Because while they can restrict the tuner to VHF only, eliminating UHF, there is no way to tell the difference between OTA 2-13 and cable 2-13. So as long as the guide data is mapped to the right channel it will still work. (and even if it's not you could still do manual recordings)

Dan


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

_I too am curious how they solved the problem with different channel lineups. Maybe they simply let you do the guided setup for each tuner/source._

While few folks needed the functionality, it's been there since the Series 1's. You could choose two different source (ie - Antenna + Satellite), and it would ask you two sets of lineup questions, one for the Antenna RF in, and one for Satellite through RCA/SVideo. Of course, it could only record off of one of the two at a time. I've been running with two lineups on my series 2's for years.

And - the HDR250 does it as well - merging OTA HD + DirectTV HD as two separate lineups.

So managing multiple lineups in new boxes should be a snap, as the base code's been there for years.

-Ken


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

What's new is the ability for asymmetrical tuners. In the past TiVos have only had to have very basic logic to support dual tuners. If tuner #1 wasn't available then they just used tuner #2, if that wasn't available the program wasn't recorded. With this new system the code has to be smart enough to know that tuner #1 can record all channels while tuner #2 can only record analog cable channels. 

That being said this comes as no surprise as the same system will also come into play with the S3 units. They will support the possibility of the user inserting one, single stream, CableCARD. With this setup the TiVo will only be able to record one encrypted channel at a time, which presents a very similar situation to what we're seeing here. We discussed this back when the S3 was announced and Megazone told us about the various supported configurations. 

Dan


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

kdmorse said:


> _I too am curious how they solved the problem with different channel lineups. Maybe they simply let you do the guided setup for each tuner/source._
> 
> While few folks needed the functionality, it's been there since the Series 1's. You could choose two different source (ie - Antenna + Satellite), and it would ask you two sets of lineup questions, one for the Antenna RF in, and one for Satellite through RCA/SVideo. Of course, it could only record off of one of the two at a time. I've been running with two lineups on my series 2's for years.
> 
> ...


That was multiple lineups from multiple sources (cable and satellite, or OTA and satellite), combined into a single tuner. This is dual tuners, one with one set of channels, and a second with a subset of those channels, possibly on different numbers.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

aindik said:


> That was multiple lineups from multiple sources (cable and satellite, or OTA and satellite), combined into a single tuner. This is dual tuners, one with one set of channels, and a second with a subset of those channels, possibly on different numbers.


Makes no difference at all. A lineup is a lineup to the TIVO. With some moderate hacking I've seen a TIVO setup (not with the actual TIVO service) where the TIVO was configured with ANALOG cable on the RF and the cable box on the Aud/Vid inputs. It can easily be done if you're TIVO and managing the codebase.

If your analog cable is different than your digital cable.. the two lineups will be different from Tribune / Zap2iT.

Two lineups is two line ups. Even if they are identical the TIVO will retrieve them separately. Same as it does now for a CABLE & SATELLITE or SATELLITE & Antenna combo.

This code has existed in one form or another because of HD-DTIVO's with dual tuners where one of the tuners could be OTA.


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## Stylin (Dec 31, 2004)

GadgetGav said:


> That wasn't what I said. I've had Lifetime for years. I just wondered how many people had rushed to switch to Lifetime because there was a small (but extended) window in which to make that change, only to find out that there was new hardware coming along. How many people would rather have a dual tuner on a monthly plan than a single on Lifetime...
> 
> My suggestion would be to annouce the new pricing structure and the new hardware on the same day so that people have all the information they need to make their decision. Simple really.


 :up: Agreed. I was one of those that rushed out and bought S2. Luckily I'm still within 30 day window and have also not added LT sub as yet.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

tazzftw said:


> Now I'm starting to get worried. For the most part, I don't use a cable box. Just the RF cable. Will this work for me?


 Iwould not worry about the people freaking out about OTA stuff. it is different than just recording off your cable. I can not picture a scenario where a SA TiVo would not do that, heck the series 3 info said you can hook up your plain jane cable to a series 3 with no cable card and record away


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

lajohn27 said:


> This code has existed in one form or another because of HD-DTIVO's with dual tuners where one of the tuners could be OTA.


I didn't know that, I thought they were both from the same source. That's good, it should be working fine by now then.  Did it know that for example a show on NBC that was set to record on the sat-NBC channel, but conflicted with another satellite recording, could be automatically set to record on the OTA tuner instead? I would assume that's pretty basic logic though.


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## MEngland (Sep 9, 2002)

I see the difference in tuner capability an interesting problem without an obvious or easy solution. I did think of a couple examples of why this tuner management process might be difficult. These example assume S2DT with one analog cable feed and one digital cable feed (for simplicity I will call this these feeds the analog tuner and the digital tuner). I will use NBC and ABC to represent analog channels and HBO to represent digital.

#1 Imagine a situation where there is a movie on NBC from 8-10pm. There is a second show set to record on HBO from 9-10pm. If S2DT starts recording the NBC movie using the digital tuner, then only the analog tuner is available at 9pm and HBO would not get recorded.

Solution: Always use the analog tuner first (if it is applicable for the show being recorded).

#2 - I have three shows I want to record. NBC from 8-10p, ABC from 9-11p and HBO from 10-11pm. If I use the above solution, TiVo would use the analog tuner for the NBC show. Then, when the ABC show started at 9p, the TiVo would be forced to use the Digital Tuner. The problem is that at 10p the analog tuner becomes available, but the digital tuner is still busy with the ABC show and the TiVo is unable to record HBO.

On a busy recording night it might be necessary to look forward 4-5 shows to find the best solution for tuner selection. I would want a TiVo to always record the maximum number of shows possible. This implies some interesting scheduling routines that appear to not be present right now.

Oh, I did think of one semi-simple solution. The TiVo can hand a recoding from one tuner to the other in the middle of a show. So, if the Digital tuner was in use (recording an analog channel) when a digital show needed to record, and the analog tuner was availavle (as in the above example) the TiVo would pass the current recording from the digital tuner to the analog tuner to free up the digital tuner. I do not think they would do this and I would worry about recording glitches.

How do people think they will handle asymetric tuners?


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Is it possible to set up a current series 2 for OTA AND cable? Or is that only OTA + satilite?


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

OTA and Cable does not show as possible according to the setup guide.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> Went back to the TGC box pictures on Zatz site... http://www.zatznotfunny.com/PSN/tivoGC.htm ...
> All I see is a 240 style front and an ethernet port on the back.
> 
> Not that there's anything wrong with that...


The actual production units are silvered:

Someone's Flickr set


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Currents Standalones can only do two lineups if one of the lineups is satellite.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

MickeS said:


> As I understand it, the RF that comes through the cable is different than the RF that comes through an antenna. What some posters are saying is that maybe TiVo disabled the "OTA RF" tuning on this unit, since that is where the 2007 requirement applies, and left the "cable RF" tuning intact.
> 
> An I understand this correctly? If a cable box was required in all cases, this would be a serious disappointment. I would certainly not buy it.


Analog cable is the same as analog antenna, except for frequency plan.

I think what some people are saying is to, at a software level, block the tuner from tuning OTA channels (more accurately, have no analog antenna option). And at that, only after March 2007.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

classicsat said:


> The actual production units are silvered:
> 
> Someone's Flickr set


That's the Chinese TiVo - it is not the same as the Dual Tuner unit that we are discussing (Though it does have some of the same features)

Edit: D'oh - missed the reference to the TGC unit in your quote...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

classicsat, when you write "block the tuner from tuning OTA channels (more accurately, have no analog antenna option)", I think you mean the same as me.

What I meant was that there is normally a setting on VCRs and TVs for "Cable" or "Antenna", which to me means that they must be two different sets of radio frequencies. If they block the "Antenna" radio frequencies, they should be in the clear, no? Is that what you mean too?


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

Anyone from TiVo on this new development?


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

/me F5's until we hear a TiVo employee chime in here.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

MEngland said:


> #2 - I have three shows I want to record. NBC from 8-10p, ABC from 9-11p and HBO from 10-11pm. If I use the above solution, TiVo would use the analog tuner for the NBC show. Then, when the ABC show started at 9p, the TiVo would be forced to use the Digital Tuner. The problem is that at 10p the analog tuner becomes available, but the digital tuner is still busy with the ABC show and the TiVo is unable to record HBO.


Actually I don't think it would work quite like that. The TiVo box itself will have two physical cable tuners. So with your example setup the box would actually have 3 tuners available to it (i.e. 2 internal, and one external) with the ability to record from any two at a give time. Which means for this situation it would use internal tuner #1 for the first show, internal tuner #2 for the second show, then when it got to the third show it would switch to using the external tuner. The only time you'd run into a conflict is if you had two overlapping programs that were both on digital channels.

Dan


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

MickeS said:


> What I meant was that there is normally a setting on VCRs and TVs for "Cable" or "Antenna", which to me means that they must be two different sets of radio frequencies.


They use the same frequencies, but with a slight shift (that's an oversimplification). So, older devices (TV's/VCT's) would receive no picture, or a fuzzy picture, if the switch were set incorrectly. Newer devices still have the switch (though often it's a menu option), but their tuners are smart enough that they can usually lock on to the signal even when the switch is set incorrectly. Some new devices just figure out what they're plugged into on their own.

If the new units don't support OTA Antenna signals, it's purely a political/regulatory move, not a technical one. I'm sure the hardware supports it (try going to a tuner supplier and saying "Hi, I'd like a tuner that can receive analog cable, but can't lock on to a OTA signal please").

-Ken


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## bryan314 (Nov 17, 2004)

MEngland said:



> How do people think they will handle asymetric tuners?


Since Tivo treats each channel separately for each Season Pass wouldn't this be further extended to the two lineups? Station A Analog is considered separate from Station A Digital. Thus you'd have to set up 2 season passes one for each 'channel'. It'd simplify things somewhat since you could set the digital at a different priority than the analog.

HBO digital
NBC analog
ABC digital
CBS ARWL any tuners/channel
ABC analog
NBC digital

Bryan


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

classicsat said:


> The actual production units are silvered:
> 
> Someone's Flickr set


The only silver I see is the OTHER box on top. Otherwise just a 240 box.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

You guys are making this much more complex then it needs to be. If all you have is digital/analog cable then there is no need for two lineups. Since TiVo will be able to record ALL analog programs using it's internal tuners, the only part of the digital lineup it'll need are the actual digital channels (i.e. 99+) thus there will be no overlap problem. For DSS it gets a little trickier, since there are no analog channels on DSS and some of the locals might over lap. However TiVo has had to deal with this on the current hardware. I believe what they'll do is give priority to the analog lineup, since there are two analog tuners and less chance for conflict on those, and only use the DSS input if actually necessary. If you'd prefer to use a DSS channel over it's analog equivalent then you can always just uncheck the analog version from the Channels I Receive list and it will have no choice but to use the DSS input. 

Dan


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## d_anders (Oct 12, 2000)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Anyone from TiVo on this new development?


Looks like poor execution to me. A bunch of online sites start showing the box before TiVo Marketing even gets a press release out...and obviously inadequate communication/direction to the CSR group...per the other thread going on...

Kidzone and their off focus "dating" event in San Francisco got better ramp up than this, and this is a whole new product...


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Hey, I don't care, I like knowing about it ahead of time. Especially when it looks like such an exciting product.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 27, 2001)

d_anders said:


> Looks like poor execution to me. A bunch of online sites start showing the box before TiVo Marketing even gets a press release out...and obviously inadequate communication/direction to the CSR group...per the other thread going on...
> 
> Kidzone and their off focus "dating" event in San Francisco got better ramp up than this, and this is a whole new product...


[sarcasm]Yep, it's absolutely Tivo's fault that some of the companies selling their products jumped the gun.[/sarcasm]


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

d_anders said:


> Looks like poor execution to me.


I don't think it was execution at all - it was a mistake. Somehow a miscommunication happened - the vibe I get is that this information was not supposed to be public yet *at all*. Somehow merchants didn't get the memo and started posting it - or maybe the wrong date was conveyed, who knows. It wasn't just one merchant since it showed up on at least 5 different sites, so it may have been the distributor or wholesaler.

That would also explain why it seems to be gone from Amazon, and why there are no press releases nor comments from TiVo people. If the official stance is that this is an unannounced product, then they may be waiting for the launch. Maybe it was planned for the 31st (Blue Moon), or maybe next week, or next month. Until then I'd just chill.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

megazone said:


> Maybe it was planned for the 31st (Blue Moon), or maybe next week, or next month. Until then I'd just chill.


Hopefully before 4/15 and with a $150 rebate.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Actually I don't think it would work quite like that. The TiVo box itself will have two physical cable tuners. So with your example setup the box would actually have 3 tuners available to it (i.e. 2 internal, and one external) with the ability to record from any two at a give time. Which means for this situation it would use internal tuner #1 for the first show, internal tuner #2 for the second show, then when it got to the third show it would switch to using the external tuner. The only time you'd run into a conflict is if you had two overlapping programs that were both on digital channels.


I agree, that makes the most sense. You'd logically want two internal analog cable tuners for the rural markets and any analog user. So they can record two shows without any need for a box at all. You only need an external box for digital cable or satellite. And using an internal tuner should be higher quality - no external cable connections, even S-Video, just a direct feed from tuner to encoder. So if the show is on an analog channel it makes sense to use an internal tuner for it.

It is also more reliable - cable boxes get reset, IR blasters don't always work properly, etc. Any time you use the external tuner you have more risk.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

davezatz said:


> Hopefully before 4/15 and with a $150 rebate.


Maybe not - could be a factor in the lifetime extension, knowing the new box wouldn't be out before then. *shrug* Who knows, other that TiVo, and they're not telling.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Out of curiosity, how much more powerful will this unit have to be, and will the hard drive have to be any faster? 

What's in the current hardware? I think it has a 204Mhz MIPs chip, but I don't know much more than that.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

davezatz said:


> Hopefully before 4/15 and with a $150 rebate.


Unless you have a lifetime GC, we don't know if this is eligible for lifetime, even if you get one before 4/15.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I think it's actually pretty likely that these units will have MPEG-4 playback ability!


I'd like to see that myself. Since the S3 will have a decoder that handles H.264/MPEG-4 and VC-1, if the new S2 platform can handle them then it provides a new, unified base for using advanced codecs for broadband content delivery. Better quality images with smaller file sizes. Since this will be sold alongside the S3, it would make things simpler going forward.

Of course, that'd proably mean that some broadband content would not be available for existing S2 boxes - if the concent is MPEG-4 or VC-1 only, it wouldn't play. MPEG-2 will be the common denominator between old and new - so that would probably be how intial content is handled, until enough MPEG4/VC-1 capable units were in the field.



> As for ATSC... If Megazone says he'd put money down on them not doing ATSC I'd be inclined to believe him. He had an extensive inside talk with the TiVo people at CES and probably knows a lot more then he lets on.


Uh, don't put too much weight on what I say. I'm not a TiVo employee and if I'm told anything in confidence then I don't repeat it. My statements are simply logical based on the known facts, and I do feel strongly that I'm correct. The FCC mandate is that devices which have an OTA NTSC tuner must also have an OTA ATSC tuner as of March 2007. If you don't tune OTA NTSC then you don't need ATSC either, and you can still tune cable signals just fine. I started months ago supposing that they could drop NTSC on a new box, and leave the S3 as the NTSC/ATSC box.

Recording ATSC means you must be able to handle HD. You either have to record it as HD, or have a chip that can downconvert to SD. Those chips are not cheap - even a $10 chip is expensive for consumer electronics devices. The system also needs to be beefed up for the higher data rates of the ATSC signal. Plus a box that can tune ATSC would be some competition for the S3 products.

Also, as noted, for the past few quarters TiVo has made repeated statements about the analog cable market and how they are going to focus on it. And their own reports and charts show that OTA isn't a big market for them.

This box looks like a replacement for today's S2. Logically then they'd want to keep costs down to keep pricing the same, or close to the same. This is the 'low' part of the high-low mix, with the S3 being 'high'. ATSC, QAM, and/or CableCARD all add significant cost. Any of those are significantly unique features that I'd expect them to be listed in product features by a merchant like Amazon as well.

To me it does not make sense that this unit would have ATSC or QAM tuning, that'd pretty much make it part of the Series3 family, not Series2.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Puppy76 said:


> Out of curiosity, how much more powerful will this unit have to be, and will the hard drive have to be any faster?


I don't think it would necessarily *have* to be any more powerful, the CPU doesn't do a lot of work for recording. It would need an encoder that can do two streams, or two encoders. And the hard drive needed be any faster, there is plenty of overhead to handle two streams - the same speed drives handle 2 HD streams recording and one playing back on the HD DirecTiVo.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

classicsat said:


> If it has an ATSC tuner, it likely isn't too much of a stretch to do QAM.


*If* it has an ATSC tuner, technologically QAM wouldn't be much - there are integrated receivers. But I think that's a big 'if' - and I personally don't think it will.

But even if it isn't hard technologically, there are user experience reasons not to do it. TiVo is about being simple - try explaining to an average user while the 'digital tuner' can't record a bunch of their digital cable channels, and perhaps only simulcast digital versions of their locals. Unless they did CableCARD, and I think that's right out, they'd be limited to clear QAM - and that'd be very confusing for the non-technical user. Since they'd need to support a box for those channels, it is simpler to just always use an external box.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

megazone said:


> This box looks like a replacement for today's S2. Logically then they'd want to keep costs down to keep pricing the same, or close to the same. This is the 'low' part of the high-low mix


Dual tuning and possible MPEG4 support is pretty nice for the low-end! I would consider this for my bedroom DVR ($16.95/mo for 3 years?) since most channels still broadcast in SD anyway and I don't use a cable box (QAM is wonderful, hope it lasts).


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Endgadget is now reporting 4 USB ports...


I'd like to know where they're getting this info. If the box has built-in Ethernet and WiFi only needs 1 port - since USB is a hub-able system, what do you need more ports for? Even if they supported other devices, 3 at once? This smells fishy.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

megazone said:


> Of course, that'd proably mean that some broadband content would not be available for existing S2 boxes - if the concent is MPEG-4 or VC-1 only, it wouldn't play. MPEG-2 will be the common denominator between old and new - so that would probably be how intial content is handled, until enough MPEG4/VC-1 capable units were in the field.


They could always make the servers smart enough to know what kind of unit the user has and send down the respective format based on that. Or they could use the service as a selling point for the new units and get more people to switch to their new service plans. I could see it going either way.



megazone said:


> Uh, don't put too much weight on what I say. I'm not a TiVo employee and if I'm told anything in confidence then I don't repeat it. My statements are simply logical based on the known facts, and I do feel strongly that I'm correct. The FCC mandate is that devices which have an OTA NTSC tuner must also have an OTA ATSC tuner as of March 2007. If you don't tune OTA NTSC then you don't need ATSC either, and you can still tune cable signals just fine. I started months ago supposing that they could drop NTSC on a new box, and leave the S3 as the NTSC/ATSC box.


I agreed with you is because the logic made sense. Your "in" with TiVo only helped solidify my belief. 

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

megazone said:


> I'd like to know where they're getting this info. If the box has built-in Ethernet and WiFi only needs 1 port - since USB is a hub-able system, what do you need more ports for? Even if they supported other devices, 3 at once? This smells fishy.


I'd like to know as well. The pictures of the China box show it as having only 2 USB ports. 

Dan


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

davezatz said:


> Dual tuning and possible MPEG4 support is pretty nice for the low-end! I would consider this as my bedroom DVR ($16.95/mo for 3 years?) since most channels still broadcast in SD anyway and I don't use a cable box (QAM is wonderful, hope it lasts).


I think I'd hold out for the S3 myself. I have 2 boxes now, both -RW, one in the livingroom and one in the bedroom. I'd actually had them fed with coax since I moved last summer, despite paying for digital cable. I finally picked up new cable boxes (the old ones had been disconnected too long) recently and one is using a box now, and I've been meaning to rewire the other for weeks. Since I do plan to get an S3 for HD (and an HD set to go with it), and the other nifty features, it'd be hard to justify buying an S2DT. (Both of my current boxes are lifetime.) I will most likely sell the RS-TX20 and move the DVR-810H into the bedroom, and put the S3 in the livingroom.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

davezatz said:


> Dual tuning and possible MPEG4 support is pretty nice for the low-end! I would consider this for my bedroom DVR ($16.95/mo for 3 years?) since most channels still broadcast in SD anyway and I don't use a cable box (QAM is wonderful, hope it lasts).


Hmmm... Along this line, I wonder if the decoder chip in this thing can downres HD? If it can then it would be capable of transfering HD programs from an S3 unit and would truely make an outstanding "bedroom unit".

Dan


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

megazone said:


> I'd like to know where they're getting this info. If the box has built-in Ethernet and WiFi only needs 1 port - since USB is a hub-able system, what do you need more ports for? Even if they supported other devices, 3 at once? This smells fishy.


I'm guessing they misread something or someone fed them a unfounded tip. I assume this box is similar to the TGC unit which has only two. Perhaps it's cheaper to buy a two port USB device thingy, or maybe it'll support an external hard drive like the S3.  Or perhaps it just has one and doesn't look like the back of the TGC unit.










(pic via megazone @ ces)


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I'd like to know as well. The pictures of the China box show it as having only 2 USB ports.


Yeah, the TGC box was at CES (those photos may be mine actually, some of those out there are) and it looked very much like a US S2 (with the old facia, though that doesn't say anything about the board inside), except it had an Ethernet jack with the USB ports. Otherwise it was the same - save for labeling.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

It's going to be really ironic if I'd need to buy a high end Tivo in order to get my low-end over the air channels 

At least that would make it simpler in my decision between waiting for S3 or getting a S2+


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The Pioneer units only had one USB port. However the majority of PC parts I've seen have two ports stuck together, so it may be that they are cheaper to buy in pairs. 

Dan


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

MEngland said:


> #2 - I have three shows I want to record. NBC from 8-10p, ABC from 9-11p and HBO from 10-11pm. If I use the above solution, TiVo would use the analog tuner for the NBC show. Then, when the ABC show started at 9p, the TiVo would be forced to use the Digital Tuner. The problem is that at 10p the analog tuner becomes available, but the digital tuner is still busy with the ABC show and the TiVo is unable to record HBO.


I might not be following entirely, so correct me if I am off...

Most digital lineups also contain analog channels, correct? You labeled NBC as an analog channel, but it's most likely also available on your digital lineup as well. The solution would be for Tivo to record NBC and HBO from your digital box feed, and ABC on the second/analog feed. The software should be smart enough to manage that, no?

There's also your priority list to consider if there is a real conflict. I generally move digital channels like HBO lower since they tend to repeat their programming more regularly.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I might not be following entirely, so correct me if I am off...
> 
> Most digital lineups also contain analog channels, correct? You labeled NBC as an analog channel, but it's most likely also available on your digital lineup as well. The solution would be for Tivo to record NBC and HBO from your digital box feed, and ABC on the second/analog feed. The software should be smart enough to manage that, no?
> 
> There's also your priority list to consider if there is a real conflict. I generally move digital channels like HBO lower since they tend to repeat their programming more regularly.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3896726&&#post3896726

Dan


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

davezatz said:


> Dual tuning and possible MPEG4 support is pretty nice for the low-end! I would consider this for my bedroom DVR ($16.95/mo for 3 years?) since most channels still broadcast in SD anyway and I don't use a cable box (QAM is wonderful, hope it lasts).


My guess is no MPEG 4, desirable as it may be. MPEG4 is about future products and services, and wouldn't be an important selling point to the target market. Every dollar TiVo puts into the box costs them $500K to $1M per year (since the new plan calls for them to eat most of the box cost upfront). If the decoder is, say, $8, it would have to draw in a hell of a lot of subs to be worth the expense. But the basic analog sub who has never owned a DVR isn't going to know or care what MPEG4 is. Dual tuners, yes, you can sell that. But MPEG4 so your internet content downloads are faster? Maybe in a year or five that will matter to people.

TiVo may have learned some lessons from being on the bleeding edge of technology. They seem to be taking a slow and cautious approach to downloading content.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

megazone said:


> I'd like to know where they're getting this info. If the box has built-in Ethernet and WiFi only needs 1 port - since USB is a hub-able system, what do you need more ports for? Even if they supported other devices, 3 at once? This smells fishy.


I agree it is doubtful, but the IR blasters could be USB on the new box. If so, then IR takes a port, wireless takes a port, and you still need a port for your iPod or whatever. As someone has pointed out, USB hardware seems to come in port pairs, adding one adds two, and you're up to four.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> My guess is no MPEG 4, desirable as it may be. MPEG4 is about future products and services, and wouldn't be an important selling point to the target market.


I would think MPEG4 compatibility would be crucial for Tivo to have available on as many home units as possible. It seems to me this would need to be in place if Tivo wanted to have success with it's future video download service. 
Sure, most consumers probably don't know what MPEG4 is...but that doesn't mean it isn't important in the backend of things.

I'd actually be surprised if MPEG4 isn't included. Tivo would be kinda shooting themselves in the foot by reducing the number of potential clients that can use their download video service. (Yes, I'm assuming Tivo has given up on the MPEG2 delivery model)


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> and you still need a port for your iPod or whatever


Hmmm I still think it's two ports, but I forgot about external devices other than a hard drive. Both iPod and PSP support MPEG4... and perhaps this unit does as well!  I love speculating. Though I'd also love for TiVo to chime in at some point. I'm guessing we'll hear something late this week or early next.


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## MEngland (Sep 9, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> ...with your example setup the box would actually have 3 tuners available to it (i.e. 2 internal, and one external) with the ability to record from any two at a given time.Dan


Dan, This is a really good answer. I hope you are right about having a pair of analog tuners plus the external input source. This would solve the problem and make the box more appealing.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Well how powerful is it's CPU? If it's going to be fast enough anyway, then it would be able to handle MPEG-4. Remember, it's "only" going to be doing 480i, and my Palm with a 312Mhz ARM CPU can handle that.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

MEngland said:


> Dan, This is a really good answer. I hope you are right about having a pair of analog tuners plus the external input source. This would solve the problem and make the box more appealing.


In order for it to support dual tuners with an analog only setup it would have to have dual internal tuners. So I'm 99.9% certain this is how it will work.

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Puppy76 said:


> Well how powerful is it's CPU? If it's going to be fast enough anyway, then it would be able to handle MPEG-4. Remember, it's "only" going to be doing 480i, and my Palm with a 312Mhz ARM CPU can handle that.


Your Palm can do that at 352x240 resolution. A TiVo would need full 720x480 resolution to be DVD quality and 480x480 to be NTSC quality. That takes more processing power. Plus TiVo needs to insure that the processor is never being taxed 100% by a single process, otherwise it could impeed the core functions of the unit. It would be LOT simpler for them to simply use a decoder chip that includes MPEG-4 support.

As for Chucky's comment about cost... I've seen $60 DVD players that include MPEG-4 support, so I don't think the chips cost as much as you may think. Plus if the addition of a couple of dollars to the cost of the box could help them support a video download service which could result in additional income it would pay for itself plus some in the long run. Like Stu I would be really surprised if this box did not include MPEG-4 support.

Dan


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

I don't see this as a low end box. Look at the prices: $349 and $249...

There's about a $150 premium between the DT80 and the ST80.

I see the ST80 as the basic analog market intro unit, with the DT80 reaching the high end of that segment.

The ST80 goes to the low end digital cable market, with the DT180 going mid to high end.

Then comes the S3 later for the high end digital/ big time HD market...


The high end analog through high end digital markets are going to have from DSL through cable broadband; MPEG4 playback is relevant for the DT.


An ATSC tuner is said to add $20 retail to a CE device these days.

MPEG4 decode on an MPEG chip is maybe a $5 premium (part) so $15 retail.

The HD downconvert to SD from LSI $25 max (and integrates some functions to reduce BOM) so call it $25-40 retail.

Anyway, there's lots of room in that $150 for features.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> I don't see this as a low end box. Looks at the prices: $349 and $249...
> 
> There's about a $150 premium between the DT80 and the ST80.


S2 80 MSRP is $299.
S2DT 80 MSRP is, apparently, $249.
(Both from Amazon.)

The S2 80 is cheaper to purchase right now, sure, because there are discounts (Amazon sells it for $209), and then a $150 rebate - currently. But you need to compare MSRP to MSRP. The S2DT was being discounted when the prices were still up, and rebates are special items.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HDTiVo said:


> I don't see this as a low end box. Look at the prices: $349 and $249...


The MSRP on an 80 hour Series 2 has always been $249, so there is actually no difference. The only reason they're cheaper now is because they're trying to clear them out to make room for these. I'm sure that once these are officially released they will replace the ST80 in all of the TiVo bundled price plans and be eligible for the $150 rebate if purchased retail, bringing them right back down to the low end.

The S3 unit will be the high end.

Edit: MZ beat me, and pointed out the MSRP of an ST80 is actually $299 making the DT80 cheaper.

Dan


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

megazone said:


> But you need to compare MSRP to MSRP.


No, I *REALLY   * don't.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> I don't see this as a low end box. Look at the prices: $349 and $249...
> 
> There's about a $150 premium between the DT80 and the ST80.


I think these boxes replace the old ones. The list prices for the ST 40 and 80-hour units were, until very recently, $199 and $299. So the 80-hour box is $50 less than the old 80. My guess is that within a couple of months the new 80 will be the price of the old 40, and the 180 will be the price of the old 80, and the old boxes will be scarce and disappearing from retail. The $150 rebate will come back, and everything will be like it was, only the hardware will be better.

Edit: Not piling on -- Dan and MZ hadn't posted when I started this reply.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I hope I'm wrong, but I honestly don't see where you guys get the idea from that this low-end unit will have a MPEG-4 decoder chip built in. The amazon description was fairly detailed, wouldn't that have been included there, since it would be a selling point right away (watching downloaded torrent content directly on the TiVo without any conversion).

This is something that everyone seem to agree on will be aimed at the "basic" user - and I doubt TiVo will want to spend a dollar more than they have to on the ones who just want to record their analog cable. Everyone else will have to get a Series 3, or keep doing the MPEG-4 conversion like now.

My $0.02... and I hope it's worth $0.00 when we see the final product.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

TIVO traditionally releases press releases on Tuesday.. so we may know more in just a few hours.

J


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

lajohn27 said:


> TIVO traditionally releases press releases on Tuesday.. so we may know more in just a few hours.
> 
> J


OOoooo...Maybe someone can convince Stephen or someone to release it at midnight EASTERN here.

Not me tho. I've been pretty down on TiVo lately. Probably not on his hit list, but the one with that starts with "S".


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## Troy J B (Sep 27, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> I think these boxes replace the old ones.


Not a chance if they do not tune OTA NTSC.

IMO, having 3 levels of boxes is a burden on support. Especially if 1 of the 3 does not have basic support like an OTA NTSC tuner.

I hope these are getting announced this week  Although I am waiting for the Series 3.

Troy


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Troy J B said:


> Not a chance if they do not tune OTA NTSC.


I wouldn't bet on that. In fact I'd bet that OTA only users make up a very, very, small percentage of TiVo users and there is no real urgency to make sure they're covered. Plus the old units should still be in the supply chain for at least a few more months before they dry up, which could give TiVo only a small period where they don't have an OTA capable box. Then once the S3 units are released they can tell people who want OTA only to get an S3 since they will support NTSC/ATSC OTA.

Dan


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## JoeBarbs (Dec 1, 2003)

ThreeSoFar said:


> I've been pretty down on TiVo lately.


Gee really?? We would never have known.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Any bets on whether there is digital audio out? Component video?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I hope TiVo doesn't drop NTSC/ATSC OTA support for this new series 2 box. Doing this effects more than just OTA only customers it also effects satellite customers who use OTA to receive their local channels. 

Also by having NTSC/ATSC OTA support this box allows OTA support of analog SD TVs past the digital to analog conversion date. With over 200 million SD TVs in use and 10s of millions of households still viewing OTA TV I find it hard to believe it isn't worth still supporting it. 

Thanks, 

atmuscarella


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Any bets on whether there is digital audio out? Component video?


I'm betting no NTSC, no digital audio, no component. I'm on the fence as far as MPEG4. But speaking of digital audio and component, I wonder if we'll see a DVD burning model in the DT line... that would be sweet! At least until Comcast migrates all my channels to digital cable and requires me to get a box.

A burning model is both good for me and for TiVo. It's an awesome marketing tool everytime I give a buddy a DVD (today one buddy gets Bourdain's two-hour Asian adventure).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> I hope TiVo doesn't drop NTSC/ATSC OTA support for this new series 2 box. Doing this effects more than just OTA only customers it also effects satellite customers who use OTA to receive their local channels.
> 
> Also by having NTSC/ATSC OTA support this box allows OTA support of analog SD TVs past the digital to analog conversion date. With over 200 million SD TVs in use and 10s of millions of households still viewing OTA TV I find it hard to believe it isn't worth still supporting it.
> 
> ...


are you sure it is 10s of Millions??

anyway, the law says you need significantly more hardware past 2007 to support OTA and I think OTA will then become a specialty market with a shift away from OTA. TiVo has clearly stated they see analog cable as the significant market followed by digital/HD as a significant growing market.

If the satellite broadcasters adopted an open standard that TiVo could easily latch onto then I am sure they would see that as a significant market as well. As it is manufacturing cost has always been an overriding design consideration in series 2 TiVos with the series 3 being the box listed as having OTA and QAM capabilities. OTA is actually becoming that wierd high end of OTA HD and people who would buy a series 3.

if you made plans around a series 3 then there is likely little reason to change them. I am sticking with my current TiVo setup for now. They do everything I bought them for plus more and I have no major issues. If i had rushed out and gotten another TiVo to get lifetime- I would keep it - it has not changed one bit since yesterday and I doubt lifetime will be available on any future TiVo products


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)




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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> You guys are making this much more complex then it needs to be. If all you have is digital/analog cable then there is no need for two lineups. Since TiVo will be able to record ALL analog programs using it's internal tuners, the only part of the digital lineup it'll need are the actual digital channels (i.e. 99+) thus there will be no overlap problem.
> Dan


In my digital lineup (via a box), our NBC affiliate is channel 10. In my cable-ready line-up (no box), our NBC affiliate is channel 5. The cable box simply remaps "real" channel 5 to "box" channel 10. Channels 1-99 in my cable-ready lineup are the same as channels 1-99 in my digital line-up, but they're on entirely different channel numbers. Also, some are scrambled on the cable-ready feed (i.e. available only via a box), and thus not available to the TiVo's second tuner, which is another thing the TiVo needs to know.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

And it will know it thru the lineups.

Season Passes are set by channel. So if you have a season pass on DIGITAL Cable NBC on channel 10 - it will only record that show on that channel.

You would need to setup a secondary season pass on channel 05 - Non-Digital NBC. 

Then no matter what, it *will* only record the show once. If the digital input is busy recording something from HBO, then it would fall to the non-digital Season Pass to record the show you want off of non-digital NBC channel 05. It really just takes a bit of logic on your part to prioritize your Season Passes.

Example:

Here in Canada we receive US Networks east and west. 

So I have a NBC, ABC, CBS and FOX from Detroit and another set from Seattle. I have numerous shows set up for Season Pass on NBC-East AND on NBC-West. That way, if I have a higher season pass priority that interrupts the EAST feed recording, I catch the west feed. 

On Thursdays, if FOX has new episodes my TIVO records the FOX lineup starting at 8pm (that 70's show...something else and then the OC). 

If NBC has new shows at 9pm then the TIVO records THOSE starting at at 8pm. 

If they are BOTH new.. the the Fox shows get recorded on the east coast Detroit Fox channel and the NBC shows recorded later in the evening on the Seattle west coast NBC channels.

Same idea would apply but would catch the recordings on the different tuners. Trust me - your cableco has a different lineup for DIGITAL than ANALOG and TIVO will know.

AINDIK - what's your zipcode and cable provider?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ZeoTiVo:

There are approximately 110 million households with TVs of which about 74 million are wired for cable. My data is from: http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/mediatrendstrack/Trends_In_Television.asp

So that leaves about 36 million households whose options are OTA and satellite given that satellite only relatively recently started caring local channels I would say it is reasonable to say 10 of millions are still viewing OTA (I am one of those who get local OTA and has to use Statillie for "Cable"). Given that TiVo doesn't have any real compitition in the SD OTA market dumping it does make much sense to me.

Thanks,

atmuscarella


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

davezatz said:


> I'm betting no NTSC, no digital audio, no component. I'm on the fence as far as MPEG4.


Heay! I'll throw in a fiver!

Yes on ntsc, small maybe on digital audio, no way on component out and a big "I Hope!" on mpeg4.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> ZeoTiVo:
> 
> There are approximately 110 million households with TVs of which about 74 million are wired for cable. My data is from: http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/mediatrendstrack/Trends_In_Television.asp
> 
> ...


And at last count DirecTV has 15 million subs and Dish has 12 million or so.. Totally 27 million. By far and away, the vast majority of those 27 million either have locals available to them thru the satellite or are eligible for "distant locals".

Leaving 9 million left who have chosen to stay with ONLY OTA... and maybe another 3 or 4 million who are still relying on OTA in combo with satellite. And that is a number that will get SMALLER not bigger.

And ... in theory at least.. if TIVO decided to keep offering the single tuner Series 2 boxes that are in the marketplace today, that would probably be sufficient to meet the demand of that ever decreasing market.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

I dunno, I'm hoping even TiVo knows its not 2007.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> I wouldn't bet on that. In fact I'd bet that OTA only users make up a very, very, small percentage of TiVo users and there is no real urgency to make sure they're covered.


No need to bet -- someone in TiVo management (it was either Rogers in the earnings call or West at the Citibank conference) confirmed that the antenna users were a very small percentage of subs.

I agree with you -- existing stock will cover them until the S3. Going forward, OTA will be digital and HD. The S3 covers the high-end users, and the low-end users are a not a promising market. If OTA makes a comeback, over the next few years, TiVo can adjust their product lineup based on how the market is developing, rather than having to guess at what might happen and include hardware to cover various market scenarios.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

atmuscarella said:


> There are approximately 110 million households with TVs of which about 74 million are wired for cable. My data is from: http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/mediatrendstrack/Trends_In_Television.asp
> 
> So that leaves about 36 million households whose options are OTA and satellite given that satellite only relatively recently started caring local channels I would say it is reasonable to say 10 of millions are still viewing OTA


 Or you could just go here: http://www.nab.org/Newsroom/PressRel/Filings/OTAAtt81104.pdf

But yes, not much of Tivo's base is OTA.

_ITV


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

http://www.digitaltvdesignline.com/products/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=183701370


> March 20, 2006
> 
> Pace to roll out low-cost SD DVR
> 
> ...


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> ZeoTiVo:
> 
> There are approximately 110 million households with TVs of which about 74 million are wired for cable. My data is from: http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/mediatrendstrack/Trends_In_Television.asp
> 
> So that leaves about 36 million households whose options are OTA and satellite...


Just a note of clarification: About 99 percent of US TV households are "passed" by cable, meaning that cable is an option for them. The number you give for "wired for cable" are households actually subscribing to cable.

http://www.ncta.com/Docs/PageContent.cfm?pageID=86


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## Stainless Steele (Feb 2, 2004)

I want dual tuners sooo bad!


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

lajohn27 said:


> And it will know it thru the lineups.
> 
> Season Passes are set by channel. So if you have a season pass on DIGITAL Cable NBC on channel 10 - it will only record that show on that channel.
> 
> ...


So, I'll need 2 Season Passes for every show on an analog channel? That's ridiculous. It's the _same channel_, just on a different number. TiVo should know that WCAU is WCAU, but on one tuner its channel 5 and on the other its channel 10.

I should clarify and say that the analog lineup with box and the digital lineup with box are the same (from 1-99), but the analog lineup WITHOUT box is different.

ZIP Code is 19145. Cable company is, of course, Comcast. Who else in Philadelphia?  Zap2It has all of the appropriate lineups.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Well.. you'll either need to Season Passes (one digital / one analog) or...

You'll need to schedule your Season Passes such that no one SP over rides another.

I would be greatly suprised if the TIVO recognizes WCAU on two different tuning sources on two different channel numbers.

If you were just using the two analog tuners, it would recognize them both as channel 5 and take care of the conflict resolution itself I would imagine.

I guess the way to look at it is this is an option you don't have now.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Cable operators, however, will be turning off their analog signals soon as bandwidth is reclaimed for other services, Gureck said. "All digital cable set tops [without an analog cable TV tuner] will become the mass-market product by the middle of next year, he predicted. (Bruce Gureck, vice president for product development and marketing for Pace Micro Technology Americas)


That's my main concern with S2, both the DT and the ST - cable operators will want to take advantage of the mandatory OTA digital requirement and get rid of their analog channels. Every time I've pointed it out here though, people have said that no such thing would happen. If I was a cable operator, I'd not want to keep transmitting analog channels if that bandwidth could be better used for something else...

I think it would be a huge mistake if TiVo released a new S2 model that does not have a built-in digital cable tuner.


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

I think CABLE is going to keep analog (2-99) for many years yet. Nothing to base that on, just what I think. (And hope)


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

lajohn27 said:


> Well.. you'll either need to Season Passes (one digital / one analog) or...
> 
> You'll need to schedule your Season Passes such that no one SP over rides another.
> 
> ...


It's not just me. Many cable companies that operate in areas near OTA transmitters transmit channels on different numbers and then use boxes (yes, even for analog subscribers) to remap to the more familiar numbers. This is to avoid ghosting from an actual OTA signal. They put "lesser" channels on the real channel numbers of OTA channels, to lessen the amount of complaining about signal quality. None of these people can use this new TiVo.

Luckily (I guess) I'm in Comcast country, and the ComcasTiVo will be out in a few months (we can only hope). Looks like I'll be waiting for that. Or, maybe you're wrong and the TiVo is smarter than you think.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lajohn27 said:


> Season Passes are set by channel. So if you have a season pass on DIGITAL Cable NBC on channel 10 - it will only record that show on that channel.


Actually they're set by call letters, so if both channels have the same call letters some logic has to come into play.

My assumption would be that the TiVo would always try to tune anything available on the analog side using the analog tuners. If you have a channel which is available on the analog side but is scrambled then you can simply uncheck it from the Channels I Receive section and the TiVo will have no choice but to use the box version.

Dan


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MickeS said:


> That's my main concern with S2, both the DT and the ST - cable operators will want to take advantage of the mandatory OTA digital requirement and get rid of their analog channels. Every time I've pointed it out here though, people have said that no such thing would happen. If I was a cable operator, I'd not want to keep transmitting analog channels if that bandwidth could be better used for something else...
> 
> I think it would be a huge mistake if TiVo released a new S2 model that does not have a built-in digital cable tuner.


I could see cable in NYC droping analog next year, but I can also see cable systems in areas without analog set top boxes keeping analog several years at least. Its going to be a diverse situation.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

MickeS said:


> That's my main concern with S2, both the DT and the ST - cable operators will want to take advantage of the mandatory OTA digital requirement and get rid of their analog channels.


Or they could go the other way and use it as a selling point. i.e. "Don't have a digital TV, switch to cable and you don't need one".

Dan


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

aindik said:


> It's not just me. Many cable companies that operate in areas near OTA transmitters transmit channels on different numbers and then use boxes (yes, even for analog subscribers) to remap to the more familiar numbers. This is to avoid ghosting from an actual OTA signal. They put "lesser" channels on the real channel numbers of OTA channels, to lessen the amount of complaining about signal quality. None of these people can use this new TiVo.


I do not follow your logic. There is no problem if they are an analog cable subscriber. Both lineups would be the same..

But Dan has educated me on how SP's work so it may very well be that it goes by call letters in which case - problem solved.

J


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

From way back on the last page:



Dan203 said:


> Your Palm can do that at 352x240 resolution. A TiVo would need full 720x480 resolution to be DVD quality and 480x480 to be NTSC quality. That takes more processing power.


Hey, technically Im doing MPEG 4 at 480x320 typically, so basically half the resolution it needs (not sure if mine could do the full 720x480, but it does have power left over at half that). Anyway, it wouldnt necessarily be impossible to do it on the CPU, especially since it wouldnt be encoding anything, just decoding for a single TV.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Or they could go the other way and use it as a selling point. i.e. "Don't have a digital TV, switch to cable and you don't need one".
> 
> Dan


Yeah - the lack of a box is one of those things that keeps me with Comcast (and many people I know). If each TV I own needs a STB then I'd be more open to other options (DirecTV/Dish, etc). Not needing a box is something unique to Cable, and they would be foolish to get rid of it IMHO (And I'm hard-pressed to believe they are restricted so much bandwith-wise as to need to eliminate it).


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

lajohn27 said:


> I do not follow your logic. There is no problem if they are an analog cable subscriber. Both lineups would be the same..


That's only if they didn't use the analog box on either tuner. If they do that, they are not able to record the channels that are scrambled without a box. If they used the analog box on one tuner, they'd be in the same boad I'm in.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Actually they're set by call letters, so if both channels have the same call letters some logic has to come into play.
> 
> My assumption would be that the TiVo would always try to tune anything available on the analog side using the analog tuners. If you have a channel which is available on the analog side but is scrambled then you can simply uncheck it from the Channels I Receive section and the TiVo will have no choice but to use the box version.
> 
> Dan


That works, assuming there are separate "Channels I Receive" lists for the two lineups.

And, I would hope it would use the analog tuner first. That would give me more access to my cable box for things like VOD and Music Choice, while the TiVo is still happily recording my shows.

In fact, this ability to choose between an analog coax tuner and the digital box is something I've wanted since I got my TiVo (four years ago), especially since I knew it was available for satellite subscribers, for that very reason - so I could listen to Music Choice while TiVo was recording something in the analog tier. I would have settled for the ability to do that even with one tuner.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

danieljanderson said:


> I think CABLE is going to keep analog (2-99) for many years yet. Nothing to base that on, just what I think. (And hope)


The solution my cable company used was to simulcast analog and digital on channels 2-99. If you have a digital cable box channels 2-99 are digital, if you don't they are analog.

I'm sure at some point they will get rid of the analog channels though since they can fit about 6 digital channels in the same slot that one analog channel takes and they want to offer more channels (including HD which is about 1 or 2 HD channels per 1 analog channel).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

aindik said:


> That works, assuming there are separate "Channels I Receive" lists for the two lineups.


There is only one list, but if there are overlapping channels they are clearly labeled as to which source they're coming from. At least that's how it works with current systems that have DSS and cable and have overlapping local channels.

Dan


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> There is only one list, but if there are overlapping channels they are clearly labeled as to which source they're coming from. At least that's how it works with current systems that have DSS and cable and have overlapping local channels.
> 
> Dan


Whether this works depends on whether the unit will be able to record two things at once from the coax input. Say I want to watch a show on NBC and a show on ABC that are on at the same time. If I can say "only use the analog input to record these channels," and still get both shows, then I'm cool saying ABC and NBC are available on the coax input and not the digital box.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

SullyND said:


> Yeah - the lack of a box is one of those things that keeps me with Comcast (and many people I know). If each TV I own needs a STB then I'd be more open to other options (DirecTV/Dish, etc). Not needing a box is something unique to Cable, and they would be foolish to get rid of it IMHO (And I'm hard-pressed to believe they are restricted so much bandwith-wise as to need to eliminate it).


Same here, but I would imagine that when enough CE devices have built in digital cable capability, they will be more confident in switching off the analog signals, and force everyone to either get a new display/recording device or get a digital cable box.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

aindik said:


> Whether this works depends on whether the unit will be able to record two things at once from the coax input. Say I want to watch a show on NBC and a show on ABC that are on at the same time. If I can say "only use the analog input to record these channels," and still get both shows, then I'm cool saying ABC and NBC are available on the coax input and not the digital box.


This is a given. This unit does not require a cable box to have dual tuner functionality, which means that it has to have two internal analog tuners. The cable box functionality is only there to help those that need a box to tune encrypted or non-analog channels. I'd be willing to bet that the way it works is thee box always tries to use the internal tuners first and only falls back on the box if absolutely necessary.

Dan


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

MickeS said:


> classicsat, when you write "block the tuner from tuning OTA channels (more accurately, have no analog antenna option)", I think you mean the same as me.
> 
> What I meant was that there is normally a setting on VCRs and TVs for "Cable" or "Antenna", which to me means that they must be two different sets of radio frequencies. If they block the "Antenna" radio frequencies, they should be in the clear, no? Is that what you mean too?


They use the same frequencies, just differently. Yes, I mean just to remove the analog antenna option from software.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Endgadget Podcast: http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/28/engadget-podcast-073-03-28-06/

TiVo starts @22:32


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## Troy J B (Sep 27, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I wouldn't bet on that. In fact I'd bet that OTA only users make up a very, very, small percentage of TiVo users and there is no real urgency to make sure they're covered. Plus the old units should still be in the supply chain for at least a few more months before they dry up, which could give TiVo only a small period where they don't have an OTA capable box. Then once the S3 units are released they can tell people who want OTA only to get an S3 since they will support NTSC/ATSC OTA.


Ah, but you took that not a chance out of context... the context was 
"I think these boxes replace the old ones."

These S2DT's might displace the S2, but the true replacement (feature-wise) would be the S3. Just nit-picking...

Sigh, does this mean we have to wait till next Tuesday for an announcement from TiVo ?

Troy


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## Stylin (Dec 31, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> I could see cable in NYC droping analog next year, but I can also see cable systems in areas without analog set top boxes keeping analog several years at least. Its going to be a diverse situation.


Yep, I one of those Nyers whose area no longer offers any analog. It was phased out over a yr ago, so I figure it'll be phased out in other cosmo areas pretty soon also.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Regarding the difference between a S2-DT and an S3, on of the major problems is the sheer amount of data that must be pushed around for HD. This often causes a need for a CPU upgrade.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

ah30k said:


> Regarding the difference between a S2-DT and an S3, on of the major problems is the sheer amount of data that must be pushed around for HD. This often causes a need for a CPU upgrade.


That would be part of it.
So:

It would be:
"Bigger" CPU
All that Silicon for two multimode tuner chains
HD chipset.
Licences for and hardware HDMI, SPDIF/Toslink, DD, eSata, Cablecard.
Pretty LED front and backlit remote.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

classicsat said:


> That would be part of it.
> So:
> 
> It would be:
> ...


Don't forget that gold bar in the remote to give it balanced weight. That's where the real cost is gonna be.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

A DVR designed with a chip like the LSI DoMiNo could handle ATSC (one or two streams) or even QAM HD without any upgrade to other components, because the 8633/8683 downreses the HD stream(s) to SD before it hits the rest of the system.

The new TiVo DTs, based upon their description, could use a chip like the single stream 8633 coupled with an NTSC/ATSC or NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuner (with or without CC slot) to meet the digital channel recording advertisment. Such a setup could permit recording all ATSC SD/HD as well as off cable (w/QAM) various HD and SD unencrytped digital channels even without CableCard.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

lajohn27 said:


> Well.. you'll either need to Season Passes (one digital / one analog) or...
> 
> You'll need to schedule your Season Passes such that no one SP over rides another.
> 
> ...


Just a frame of reference- with an HD Tivo on Directv- Tivo sees:
1)	Sat provided analog channel x , 
2)	sat provided digital channel x, 
3) and OTA provided digital channel x as three different channels and you need to set your season passes to one of the three.

Throw out #1 the analog version and 2 and 3 are basically the same yet they count them separately. Might be different, but Id think its not worth the effort, it seems to work fine for everyone with the HR10-250.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Actually they're set by call letters, so if both channels have the same call letters some logic has to come into play.
> 
> My assumption would be that the TiVo would always try to tune anything available on the analog side using the analog tuners. If you have a channel which is available on the analog side but is scrambled then you can simply uncheck it from the Channels I Receive section and the TiVo will have no choice but to use the box version.
> 
> Dan


On the HD-tivo, they just use different call letters for the different sources. For example- WNBC-DT, WNBC, NBCE. Refers to Digital over the air, analog on sat, digital on sat.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> Just a frame of reference- with an HD Tivo on Directv- Tivo sees:
> 1)	Sat provided analog channel x ,
> 2)	sat provided digital channel x,
> 3) and OTA provided digital channel x as three different channels and you need to set your season passes to one of the three.
> ...


What is a "sat provided analog channel?" Aren't all DirecTV channels digital?

Do you mean "sat provided SD channel" versus "sat provided HD channel"?

If so, the point is that, if you receive WCAU-DT on DirecTV and WCAU-DT OTA, those are different channels to the HDDirecTiVo, and your season pass on one would record on one and not the other.

This is a bit different, because if I receive the same channel OTA and on DirecTV on an HDTiVo, I can tell the DirecTiVo that the DirecTV version of the channel is not a Channel I Receive, and it will always record on the OTA, this will not hamper the operation of the dual tuners because there are two OTA tuners and two DirecTV tuners in that box.

This box, it seems, is different. We're not sure if there are two analog coax tuners or whether the second tuner is always the cable box. So, if I tell the TiVo that I only receive WCAU-TV and WPVI-TV on the analog tuner and not on the digital box (i.e. I remove them from Channels I Receive in the digital box, and set my SPs using the analog non-box lineup), will I still get recordings from both at the same time? That depends on whether there are two analog coax tuners inside the box or not.

Also, I'm not sure to what extent there is overlap in the numbers of the DirecTV channels and the OTA channels. If there is overlap, does the box have separate lists of channels with the DirecTV lineup and the OTA lineup in Channels I Receive?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

"Sat provided analog channel" means a local broadcast channel that is distributed over the DirecTV satellite system. The source is an NTSC broadcast.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

stevel said:


> "Sat provided analog channel" means a local broadcast channel that is distributed over the DirecTV satellite system. The source is an NTSC broadcast.


Then what are OTA local channels that you can tune to via your Dish receiver? Some Dish Network receiver's have an antenna input and it shows both those channels and satellite channels merged together in guide. 

example receiver 


> Local off-air channels seamlessly mapped with DISH Network satellite programming.


Edit: I see now that the 411 (exmaple receiver above) is discontinued and replaced with the 211.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

aindik said:


> What is a "sat provided analog channel?" Aren't all DirecTV channels digital?
> 
> Do you mean "sat provided SD channel" versus "sat provided HD channel"?
> 
> ...


Sorry should have said

1)Sat provided SD channel based on NTSC
2)Sat Provided HD channel based on ATSC
3) Antenna provided ATSC.

(I dont even like to say HD and SD because thats not the case- there is plenty of SD on the ATSC channels)

Theres no need to remove any of them from the list. I can set up a season pass for show x to record off #2 and show Y to record off #3. The only reason to remove channels from I receive is if you want a wishlist to hit a certain source or not.

There are no channel number overlaps with the HD TiVo (except sort of that sat provided SD based on NTSC is 4 and OTA ATSC is 4-1). Since it was posted above that the tivo decides season passes based on call letter, I think they could just set the lineups in the box to be WNBC-analog, and WNBC-digital and then go from there. If the cable company remaps a digital down it could behave just like the HD Tivo- If I press channel 3 then channel up it goes to 4 then channel up and 4-1. With the new box it could just go to 4(analog) and then 4(digital).

I dont think it matters if the second tuner needs to come form the cable box- the tivo would figure it all out anyway. No need to delete from one source or the other. I (and I suspect many) would prefer the same channel available on both tuners (or the internal tuner and the cable box)- with directives , I frequently have overlapping recordings on both tuners on the same channel. The way the networks screw the times up all the time I frequently pad the end of the shows even though I might be recording the next thing on the same channel anyhow (its a tivo why do I want to know what comes on next) so there are lots of times that it will be on channel x finishing up a padded show while the other tuner is on channel x recording the beginning of the next program. With dual tuners you can afford such wasteful luxuries (and begin to expect them)

I dont think it needs to be so complex that the user has to do all kinds of figuring out which channel to allow where and fiddle with the channels I recieve. Tivo like to make for dummies- what will the y call the "channels I receive screen"? WIll it become the "channels i feel like coming from one source or the other" screen? There's just no need to delete any duplicates- if channel X is availible analog and digital than keep them both. If it is only availible digital then leave it as such and the tivo will attempt to find it on that spot only.

Of course we wont really know until its out so its all just my humble opinion.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

greg_burns said:


> Then what are OTA local channels that you can tune to via your Dish receiver? Some Dish Network receiver's have an antenna input and it shows both those channels and satellite channels merged together in guide.
> 
> example receiver


dont have DISH but Directv HD recievers combine sat and OTA ATSC- (current models dont due NTSC also)- so there is no channel number overlap. all the ATSC channels have sub channel numbers even if there is only one channel so it would go 4, 4-1, 5, 5-1, 5, 6-1.

Way back when I had a stand alone tivo and directv the tivo allowed from a mixture of channels from DIrectv and NTSC- I forget how it looked but i think it was similar to my guess above with 4(sat), 4(ant), 5(sat), 5(ant) etc.

(my first directv receivers before HD/ATSC and even locals on sat - might have do NTSC also- I forget...)

Edit: got the link to work- that box is just like the current Directv HD receivers- it only tunes OTA ATSC channels with the sub channels

Analog OTA seems to be pass through not tune.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

sorry I think I'm confusing everyone with NTSC vs ATSC. My point is Tivo already handles the same channel coming from differnt sources and differnet sorts of tuners just fine. That's all I was trying to say.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> sorry I think I'm confusing everyone with NTSC vs ATSC. My point is Tivo already handles the same channel coming from differnt sources and differnet sorts of tuners just fine. That's all I was trying to say.


And, like I said, the HDTiVo has two OTA tuners and two DirecTV tuners. So, we know that, if I have two SPs on OTA channels at the same time, both will record. We don't know that about this new box (replacing "OTA" with "analog cable" obviously).


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Actually we kinda do.

The Amazon description said you could record TWO analog cable channels at the same time.. OR one analog and one digital.

Where' the confusion?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

classicsat said:


> Currents Standalones can only do two lineups if one of the lineups is satellite.


Yes, in the out of the box UI. But many people (not including me) have hacked in the ability to do cable + cable box as two separate lineups. It "just" involves running a shell script to make another lineup on the Tivo.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Amazon seems to have pulled their listings for the new Tivos.

Yesterday they listed the 80 hour as shipping around the begining of May, the 180 hour around May 15th, if I'm remembering correctly.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Puppy76 said:


> Amazon seems to have pulled their listings for the new Tivos.


Yeah, I now get a "This title is no longer available" in my wish list.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

lajohn27 said:


> Actually we kinda do.
> 
> The Amazon description said you could record TWO analog cable channels at the same time.. OR one analog and one digital.
> 
> Where' the confusion?


The confusion is that the Amazon description could be describing one of two scenarios.

1) The choice of TWO analog or ONE analog + ONE digital is a runtime option, with the TiVo seamlessly switching back and forth between the internal tuner and the digital cable/sat box as appropriate.
-or-
2) The setup is fixed in guided setup, and you make a permanent choice to use either the internal tuner or the external cable/sat box, which no ability to swap back and forth unless you rerun guided setup.

Scenario 1 is the cleanest option for the user, and if combined with the ability to route the external RCA/S-Video plugs to either encoder, basically eliminates the possibility of forcing the TiVo into a situation where it can't record two things at once. (See the example earlier in the thread).

Scenario 2 causes all sorts of issues, especially if a sat box doesn't carry the network channels, but also because timing issues could cause the TiVo to be unable to record a digital only channel because it was using (or was forced to use) the cable/sat box to record a channel that was also available to the internal tuner.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Scenario 1 seems a LOT more likely given the issues pointed out earlier in the thread with Scenario 2.

Dan


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> Scenario 1 seems a LOT more likely given the issues pointed out earlier in the thread with Scenario 2.
> 
> Dan


I would hope so. But I guess we'll just have to wait to know for sure until after TiVo announces this and TiVoPony or TiVoOpsMgr are allowed to chime in and explain everything.


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## JoeBarbs (Dec 1, 2003)

I am a visionary!! 

I posted this thread almost exactly two years from the day that the dual turner model leak came out.

http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=1821327#post1821327


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

DCIFRTHS said:


> How do you know this?


Well, I see no TiVos at http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/OC_PNP.pdf.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

What the ... I don't get that certification list. It doesn't say what any of these manufactures are certified for. It just says they are certified. What makes you think this is a list of cablecard certified vendors. And, even if it is, Toshiba, Philips, Sony and many others ARE certified. Perhpas TiVo will not be private labelling the D2-S2s or S3s.

...Dale


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Dajad said:


> What the ... I don't get that certification list. It doesn't say what any of these manufactures are certified for. It just says they are certified. What makes you think this is a list of cablecard certified vendors. And, even if it is, Toshiba, Philips, Sony and many others ARE certified. Perhpas TiVo will not be private labelling the D2-S2s or S3s.
> 
> ...Dale


You can dig around on http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/ and read the test procedures. Notice what's on page 1 regarding the abbreviations?
PTV - CRT Projection TV
MMD - LCD Projection TV...
etc.

I only counted 4 certified set top boxes.

CableLabs developed the CableCARD spec. See http://arstechnica.com/guides/other/cablecard.ars.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

cwerdna said:


> Well, I see no TiVos at http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/OC_PNP.pdf.


Thanks for the link


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

cwerdna said:


> Well, I see no TiVos at http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/OC_PNP.pdf.


Why would an unreleased product appear in such a list, particularly one published even before Amazon, etal. mistakenly put up the DTs prematurely?

And lord knows how long self-verified items take to be sent in by the manufacturer (TiVo) or get posted.

I see no definitive value to the info.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

So Blue Moon has come and gone and still no announcement. I guess it's not as close as we thought.  Perhaps after 4/16 when lifetime is officially gone? TiVo's fiscal quarter doesn't end until April 30th so that could be what they're shooting for.

Dan


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

I wonder if Amazon's dates were correct? They listed the 80 hour unit as May 1, the 180 hour unit as May 15th.

Hopefully it won't be too much longer. Then I just have to decide if I'm going to buy a "Series 2.5" now, or hold out for an S3. (That's assuming the new Series 2 supports over the air broadcasts.)

I'm thinking if it dosen't come out until Mayish, I might as well wait until August to buy another Tivo. Probably I can mudle through the summer months with a single tuner 

If I can hold off, then maybe I can make the true "correct decision" for myself as to which model I should get.

In a way, buying an S3 for me would be gambling that the unit continues working past when we get NTSC transmissions shut off (which at this point is scheduled for what, 5 years past the original shut off date?)


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Puppy76 said:


> I wonder if Amazon's dates were correct? They listed the 80 hour unit as May 1, the 180 hour unit as May 15th.


From Amazon: end of May for the 80-hour unit.


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## Alan Gordon (May 15, 2005)

cwerdna said:


> Well, I see no TiVos at http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/OC_PNP.pdf.


I do now. The TiVo TCD648250A is listed as being verified.

~Alan


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## CarlRx (Feb 22, 2005)

According to this post where the poster got the part number of the S3 at CES, the Tivo listed on the cable labs list is the S3.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/archive/index.php/t-280411.html

--Carl


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## jautor (Jul 1, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> So Blue Moon has come and gone and still no announcement. I guess it's not as close as we thought.  Perhaps after 4/16 when lifetime is officially gone? TiVo's fiscal quarter doesn't end until April 30th so that could be what they're shooting for.
> 
> Dan


Ahh, I think you're on target, but press releases like this may be more appropriately timed just before their quarterly conference call, which would be in early June. I'd place my bets on mid-May, to be out for Memorial Day sales, and a few weeks before the concall...

Unless they get it out in the next week or two to make an impact to this quarter's revenue! 

Jeff


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Well the other thing is there was another post, before this news broke, where someone called a TiVo CSR and that CSR told him that they were promised the new box would be out before the end of the quarter. At the time everyone assumed the CSR was talking about the Series 3 and told the poster that the CSR was nuts. However it's now been speculated that the CSR may have actually been talking about this box. If that's the case then they've got until April 30th to make that deadline. 

Dan


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Which would kind of jive with Amazon's May 1 date...


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

So if a TiVo with a dual analog tuner (or single tuner with a co-active input) becomes available after the April 16 cutoff for Lifetime it will require a monthly fee of (approx.) $13 plus its (approx.) $325. price. Three years of service would cost almost $793 and counting.

But right now standard Series 2 boxes are available for $70. (after $150 rebates). Two Lifetime subs would add almost another $600. So for $740. I can buy more functionality than the dual unit could offer with only 20 fewer max hours of recording time and never pay another cent!

I just bought one Series 2 box to grab the Lifetime. Can anybody think of a reason NOT to buy another? (I have no interest in hi-def DVR's.)

A significant limitation at present is that Ser. 2 TiVo's do not allow for both a cable box input and an analog RF input at the same time. (Even ReplayTV provides that.) Electrically it's no different than a Sat. box input with an analog cable or OTA input which TiVo handles fine. But two TiVo's would solve that just as well as a dual TiVo. 

BTW, ReplayTV won't transfer shows at USB 1.1 speeds because it can't stream them fast enough. Will TiVo's method of transferring the file before viewing it have a problem with 1.1? (I use power line carrier instead of the faster Wi-Fi.)


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVo Troll said:


> So if a TiVo with a dual analog tuner (or single tuner with a co-active input) becomes available after the April 16 cutoff for Lifetime it will require a monthly fee of (approx.) $13 plus its (approx.) $325. price. Three years of service would cost almost $793 and counting.


1. There may be a rebate available on the new boxes. (Maybe not right away, but TiVo generally has some discount.)
2. If you have a current lifetime box, you would only be paying $6.95/month for the new box, and then you would have three tuners in your house and 260 hours of space.
3. The 80-hour DT box is about $100 cheaper than the 180.

So, get the 80-hour DT box for $225 or so (minus rebate?), keep your current lifetime box, and pay $6.95/month for three tuners and 160 hours. Not bad.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Does the $7. monthly charge for a second TiVo apply with Lifetime or only with the $13. monthly service?

Wouldn't a dual tuner box continue to have the problem of not accepting a cable box along with an analog cable or OTA input?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo Troll said:


> So if a TiVo with a dual analog tuner (or single tuner with a co-active input) becomes available after the April 16 cutoff for Lifetime it will require a monthly fee of (approx.) $13 plus its (approx.) $325. price. Three years of service would cost almost $793 and counting.


Actually the box was only listed for $225 at Amazon, and you can actually prepay for 3 years of service for $399. So 3 years would only cost about $625. And that's before any rebates which may be available. Heck if they keep the same $150 rebate it would only be $475, which works out to about $14 a month which is about what you'd pay for a DVR from your cable company.

Dan


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Well, I won't count on rebates on brand new TiVo models for awhile after they become available. Why would there be? Anyway I'd rather have a 180 hr. HD for $325. than an 80 hr. one for $225. But what about the potential input limitations on the dual tuner box?

Why rent when it's still possible to buy? $400. for 3 years is TERRIBLE compared with $300. Lifetime.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Just for the record TiVo Inc. does state that multi-service discounts do apply if the first box on the account is an active Lifetime sub. But $300 for as long as the HD works is still better!

I'm apparently too new to post the source as an active link but it's on TiVo's website.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo Troll said:


> Anyway I'd rather have a 180 hr. HD for $325. than an 80 hr. one for $225. But what about the potential input limitations on the dual tuner box?


But you were comparing the price to a current 80 our unit. If we're comparing apples to apples then you'd have to compare it to the 140 unit which has an MSRP of $449 so even with the $150 rebate it's going to cost $300.

Dan


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

I wasn't comparing the upcoming dual TiVo price (and features) to one 80 hour Ser. 2 box but to two. Couple that with the wait for the dual box and the upcoming unavailability of Lifetime and I guess I've got an errand to run today!


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Here is that *link* to TiVo's Multi-Service Discount rules.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVo Troll said:


> Wouldn't a dual tuner box continue to have the problem of not accepting a cable box along with an analog cable or OTA input?


While the exact specs of the DT box are unknown, it claims to be able to record two analog or one digital and one analog channel at once. Most people have taken that to mean that you can control a digital cable box and use the composite or s-video input to record, as well as the RF input. So, if you are a digital cable sub, you should get your full range of channels on one "tuner" and all of your analog channels on the other. If you are an analog sub, you won't need a cable box (unless you have scrambled channels) and you'll get all of your channels on both tuners.

No one knows the availability of an OTA tuner on the new box, and the TiVo people aren't talking (or even acknowledging that these discussions are taking place).


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVo Troll said:


> Just for the record TiVo Inc. does state that multi-service discounts do apply if the first box on the account is an active Lifetime sub. But $300 for as long as the HD works is still better!


This is a matter of opinion. I have two lifetime boxes, but expect to sell both when the Series 3 comes out. Many people here are of the opinion that the break-even time on a second lifetime box is so long that it doesn't justify the $300. I tend to agree, though with lifetime gone soon, that equation changes a bit because of the potential for increased resale value of a lifetime box.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> While the exact specs of the DT box are unknown, it claims to be able to record two analog or one digital and one analog channel at once. Most people have taken that to mean that you can control a digital cable box and use the composite or s-video input to record, as well as the RF input. So, if you are a digital cable sub, you should get your full range of channels on one "tuner" and all of your analog channels on the other. If you are an analog sub, you won't need a cable box (unless you have scrambled channels) and you'll get all of your channels on both tuners.
> 
> No one knows the availability of an OTA tuner on the new box, and the TiVo people aren't talking (or even acknowledging that these discussions are taking place).


Just to be clear, some people are digital subscribers with channels scrambled on a non-box analog feed. That would be me. My "second" tuner will only tune unscrambled channels.


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## JoeBarbs (Dec 1, 2003)

without the need for a usb adapters, how do you think the MRV transfer speeds will change with a direct ethernet port?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

MRV transfers will probably be pretty fast. However TTG transfers are processor dependant so the speed increase for those will be dependant on the speed of the CPU.

Dan


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

aindik said:


> Just to be clear, some people are digital subscribers with channels scrambled on a non-box analog feed. That would be me. My "second" tuner will only tune unscrambled channels.


I'm not sure I understand that. Are you saying you have a box for the digital and scrambled analog channels, or is it something else?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That's exactly what he's saying. I'm sure that TiVo will have some way to designate channels that need to be tuned using the box. Whether it's a user setting or something they do to the lineup data on their end. I just can't see them releasing this with the assumption that all channels 99 and below are free and clear. (unless it has one of those universal descramblers built in )

Dan


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> That's exactly what he's saying. I'm sure that TiVo will have some way to designate channels that need to be tuned using the box. Whether it's a user setting or something they do to the lineup data on their end. I just can't see them releasing this with the assumption that all channels 99 and below are free and clear. (unless it has one of those universal descramblers built in )


Right. That's kind of what I thought he was saying, but I wasn't sure. I don't see that there would be a problem with the two-lineup situation -- when I got my second box (for my analog channels), the guided setup asked me for my cable company, then tuned a couple of channels and asked me what was on. From that information, it figured out my whole analog lineup. If a scrambled channel managed to sneek into the lineup, I could just manually remove it.

So for the "asymmetric" dual-tuner units, they'll just keep two lineups -- one for the AV inputs and one for the RF. Since the analog is almost always going to be a subset of the digital lineup, the scheduler can pick programs from a single list, and the tuner will be assigned based on availability.

The question I'm not sure about is whether or not you can have really asymmetric inputs, say satellite on AV and cable on RF. My guess is that no, you can't, but I wouldn't mind being wrong about that.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> Since the analog is almost always going to be a subset of the digital lineup, the scheduler can pick programs from a single list, and the tuner will be assigned based on availability.


That depends on how you define subset (and it seems we're going around in circles here). The channels available on the analog-without-box tier are a subset of the channels available on the digital box, but they're all on different numbers.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

aindik said:


> That depends on how you define subset (and it seems we're going around in circles here). The channels available on the analog-without-box tier are a subset of the channels available on the digital box, but they're all on different numbers.


Right, but TiVo seems to have that figured out. (And it also seems to be able to remap the channels so that they make sense w.r.t. the digital lineup -- though I haven't checked that exhaustively.)

My point was just that there is nothing in the analog lineup that isn't also in the digital lineup. So the system really only needs to consider one set of programs, even though not all of those programs will be available on both tuners.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

TiVo Troll said:


> But right now standard Series 2 boxes are available for $70. (after $150 rebates). Two Lifetime subs would add almost another $600. So for $740. I can buy more functionality than the dual unit could offer with only 20 fewer max hours of recording time and never pay another cent!
> ....
> A significant limitation at present is that Ser. 2 TiVo's do not allow for both a cable box input and an analog RF input at the same time.


Is the "more functionality" for two separate units what you refer to in the second paragraph I quoted above?

Or is it simply being able to put them in separate rooms for example?

While it is true that you cannot do what the second quote refers to *out of the box*, it is possible to do that via hacks.

Check out
http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?threadid=99172&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

(I have not done this hack myself since most of the time I am blissfully without a cable box.. Currently I'm on a 3 month promo with digital cable which is cheaper than my normal extended basic setup.. But I haven't bothered making my Tivo try to control the box via IR.. I just have it going into my TV's RF.)


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

*"A significant limitation at present is that Ser. 2 TiVo's do not allow for both a cable box input and an analog RF input at the same time."*



mattack said:


> Is the "more functionality" for two separate units what you refer to in the...paragraph I quoted above?
> 
> Or is it simply being able to put them in separate rooms for example?
> 
> ...


You hit it on the head! It's nice to see that there's a hack to beat the cable limitation although I have no interest in learning how to enable a TiVo to do what it already should. (A cable box input plus an RF input is basic ReplayTV 101.) If the new DT tuner has that capability it will fulfill its potential. Otherwise strictly for functional reasons it pays to get two of the regular boxes available now regardless of pricing. Plus there is the option of putting the second box in another room!

Right now 80 hour Ser. 2's are available for $69. after rebate. Lifetime is $299. and a the multi-service discount is $6.95. So now while Lifetime is still avaliable two 80 hr. Ser. 2's cost $437 and then $6.95 mo. or $636 for two Lifetime's! The new DT box is supposed to cost around $325 plus $12.95. monthly.

That's what I just did! 2 80 hr. boxes with Lifetime for $636. Everything is set up (in two rooms) and works well. (I did have to exchange one box because it had a bad case of "kazoo audio" but even that went smoothly.) I even learned to program "Standby" as a pseudo one button on-off command on my universal remotes.

TiVo's Multi-Room Viewing system can cope with my slow power-line carrier network. Programs appear to transfer at approximately 3/4ths real time speed.

What would the new DT box do that a couple of today's Ser. 2's can't?


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> So now while Lifetime is still avaliable two 80 hr. Ser. 2's cost $437 and then $6.95 mo. or $636 for two Lifetime's! The new DT box is supposed to cost around $325 plus $12.95. monthly.
> 
> That's what I just did! 2 80 hr. boxes with Lifetime for $636.


Wishful thinking of course! Two Lifetimes on 80hr Ser. 2's cost me $736. after rebates, not $636.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> What would the new DT box do that a couple of today's Ser. 2's can't?


Record two shows at the same time from a single list of ordered Season Passes.


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## MEngland (Sep 9, 2002)

aindik said:


> Record two shows at the same time from a single list of ordered Season Passes.


IMHO this is a huge advantage. I am always sorting thought the SP lists on multiple machines trying to deal with conflicts.

That said, there is an advantage to the pair of S2 boxes. You can _watch_ two shows at once. This is important to me as I redistribute the TiVo outputs throughout the house (by modulating their output on to the Coax that is in the house). You can watch any TiVo from any TV, by tuning to that TiVo's "channel". Remote signals are relayed back from the TV's to the TiVo's in the media room, so you can control them remotely also.

I still want S2DT's (or ever better, S3's), but you still need one TiVo for each person watching TV. This means that S2 may be useful as slaves as the cheapest output units. At least until TiVo makes a box that just sits on the net and streams from a TiVo in another room. No recording ability, no HD needed. $99 with no monthly fee (or maybe a dollar or two) seems about right for these slave boxes. But I digress...


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

Do you think TiVo is waiting for the 4/15 lifetime service deadline or maybe also the 4/30 end date for the most current rebate being offered?

I can't wait to replace my units with these new babys. Hurry please TiVo!


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

BlackBetty said:


> Do you think TiVo is waiting for the 4/15 lifetime service deadline or maybe also the 4/30 end date for the most current rebate being offered?


I've been expecting 5/15, which is past the 30-day money back/lifetime transfer period of all the boxes bought with lifetime, but the 4/30 end of rebates is a strong disincentive to switching from one box to another, so it could happen then.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

MEngland said:


> I still want S2DT's (or ever better, S3's), but you still need one TiVo for each person watching TV. This means that S2 may be useful as slaves as the cheapest output units. At least until TiVo makes a box that just sits on the net and streams from a TiVo in another room. No recording ability, no HD needed. $99 with no monthly fee (or maybe a dollar or two) seems about right for these slave boxes. But I digress...


Hmm. Interesting points. I'll have to think about keeping one or both of my S2s around for this purpose once I get my S3.

The slave unit is a nice idea, too. A slingbox is too expensive for this purpose, but TiVo could make a nice little slave unit for in-LAN use on the cheap. You could point it at any TiVo in the network and stream directly from the hard drive, just like you were MRV'ing. They could make a nice little profit on those boxes, and further increase the value of their DVRs and service. Then again, the boxes are already dirt cheap, and the MSD gets you down to $6.95, so maybe the economics just don't work out for TiVo.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> The slave unit is a nice idea, too. A slingbox is too expensive for this purpose, but TiVo could make a nice little slave unit for in-LAN use on the cheap. You could point it at any TiVo in the network and stream directly from the hard drive, just like you were MRV'ing. They could make a nice little profit on those boxes, and further increase the value of their DVRs and service. Then again, the boxes are already dirt cheap, and the MSD gets you down to $6.95, so maybe the economics just don't work out for TiVo.


The value of this would be to eliminate the PC from the equation (since the file transfers to PC are rather slow currently), since otherwise there are PC-based solutions that will work with your TiVo and do exactly this. However, if the S3 has a significantly improved TiVo <-> PC transfer rate, I would think a PC solution would be fairly convenient.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MEngland said:


> I still want S2DT's (or ever better, S3's), but you still need one TiVo for each person watching TV. This means that S2 may be useful as slaves as the cheapest output units. At least until TiVo makes a box that just sits on the net and streams from a TiVo in another room. No recording ability, no HD needed. $99 with no monthly fee (or maybe a dollar or two) seems about right for these slave boxes. But I digress...


One of my favorite ideas from long ago...

http://archive.tivocommunity.com/ti...id=1673225&highlight=hmo+terminal#post1673225

http://archive.tivocommunity.com/ti...id=1688878&highlight=hmo+terminal#post1688878

http://archive.tivocommunity.com/ti...id=1756107&highlight=hmo+terminal#post1756107


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I'd really like to see a standard definition TiVo with component outputs.

Is there such a thing, like one of the DVD units? Anything with upscaling?

Right now I run one of my SD D* units through a DVD recorder in order to convert the s-video out to component. I'm not interested in an improvement in image quality, but having everything on component makes input switching wife-friendly.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

It seems like the Humax DVD unit I had had component outputs. Don't remember for sure.

I'm kind of dubious about upsampling, since theoretically the TV should be able to do it just as well.


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## GT1Boy (Mar 23, 2004)

Yes, the Pioneer DVR-810HS & 57H, Humax DRT400 & DRT800, Toshiba RS-TX20 & RS-TX60 TiVos with DVD Recorders and the Toshiba SD-H400 with DVD Player all have component outputs.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Also the best those units can "upscale" to is 480p. Although I've found that there is absolutely no difference in quality between turning on progressive mode and not, and when it's on it limits the "modes" my TV can be in so I can't propperly zoom letterboxed content.

Dan


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Although I've found that there is absolutely no difference in quality between turning on progressive mode and not


Is this true just for recorded content, or for DVDs too?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I can't see any difference on DVDs. Then again I would expect the scaler in a $2,000 TV to be better then the one is a $400 TiVo.

Dan


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

As most online offers have vanished for the new dual tuner, here is one showing it for sale with a pic and some specs plus the price. However it's out of stock. I wonder if this is this a new online retailer or a previous one that yanked it?

http://www.discount-electronic.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=32661


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

mtchamp said:


> As most online offers have vanished for the new dual tuner, here is one showing it for sale with a pic and some specs plus the price. However it's out of stock. I wonder if this is this a new online retailer or a previous one that yanked it?
> 
> http://www.discount-electronic.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=32661


Nice price! Sounds like it will be able to record from its RF tuner and a line input from a digital cable box at the same time. For $7. monthly it's a great deal; for $13, not so great.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

mtchamp said:


> http://www.discount-electronic.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=32661


Earlier today, a search for "tivo" would return this and the 80-hour DT unit. Now, they're "hidden" but still accessible through this link.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

c3 said:


> Earlier today, a search for "tivo" would return this and the 80-hour DT unit. Now, they're "hidden" but still accessible through this link.


*Here's* the 80 hour DT TiVo!


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

I can't wait to get my hands on one of these 80hr DT units and crack it open and throw in a 300 or 400gb drive.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

BlackBetty said:


> I can't wait to get my hands on one of these 80hr DT units and crack it open and throw in a 300 or 400gb drive.


I have not upgraded any machines yet but am fairly computer literate. From what I gather you need to use certain software tools and your PC. Do you think the current tools will work on the new DT models?


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

ah30k said:


> I have not upgraded any machines yet but am fairly computer literate. From what I gather you need to use certain software tools and your PC. Do you think the current tools will work on the new DT models?


They likely will. The tools are basically to create (or resize) a TiVo compatible filesystem. Nothing about adding a dual tuner should change the filesystem.

But no one is likely to know for sure until the DT units are available.
I do feel confident that even if some adjustments do end up needing to be made to the tools it will happen not long after the DT units are out.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

Annoucement this Monday.

*I hope!!*


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