# Tivo is frustrating



## ado (Dec 6, 2007)

Why does Tivo have to change my listings for no reason? They just assigned one channel (THEN)  three times (to channels 133, 70, 179). I didn't ask for this change nor have i ever heard of this channel. Even worse, they got rid of GSN to replace it with a non-existing channel!


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## BobB (Aug 26, 2002)

ado said:


> Why does Tivo have to change my listings for no reason? They just assigned one channel (THEN)  three times (to channels 133, 70, 179). I didn't ask for this change nor have i ever heard of this channel. Even worse, they got rid of GSN to replace it with a non-existing channel!


If you're talking about the Messages you get from TiVO reporting on lineup changes, TiVO does not initiate those changes, it's just reporting to you any changes it finds when it checks daily with your cable service provider for the latest updates. Don't shoot the messenger!


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

It sure would be nice if they at least did a sanity check on them.


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## BobB (Aug 26, 2002)

bizzy said:


> It sure would be nice if they at least did a sanity check on them.


It's an automated reporting process. Surely you don't expect TiVO to hire people to look at all the listing changes of every local cable affiliate in every region of the country constantly, trying to spot changes that make sense (and to whom?) or not. If you've got a problem with it, complain to the source - your local cable provider.


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## andyf (Feb 23, 2000)

GSN has changed to THEN on my provider too.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

TiVo does not change anything, it simply passes the changes others have made.

Content providers and cable companies reports their lineup changes to data providers, the data providers report those changes to TiVo, and TiVo reports them to you.

TiVo has nothing to with how your cable company chooses to organize (or reorganize) or rename channels in their lineup.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

BobB said:


> Surely you don't expect TiVO to hire people to look at all the listing changes of every local cable affiliate in every region of the country constantly, trying to spot changes that make sense (and to whom?) or not.


I don't understand why Tivo ensuring the quality of guide programming is such an outlandish concept to you.

I pay a monthly fee to Tivo as a service provider. I would like to assume that they perform some level of quality assurance on the guide information they sell me. I am not sure why that is unreasonable.

I agree that it is a lot of work. If it wasn't, then we would all be doing it ourselves, and not paying them money. Correct?

The instant buck-passing Tivo does to either Tribune or MSOs really gets my goat. I don't have a business relationship with either for the guide data Tivo provides me for my subscription fees.

If they are getting garbage from their business partners, they need to clean their own house out- not tell me its "not their problem".


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

bizzy said:


> I don't understand why Tivo ensuring the quality of guide programming is such an outlandish concept to you.
> 
> I pay a monthly fee to Tivo as a service provider. I would like to assume that they perform some level of quality assurance on the guide information they sell me. I am not sure why that is unreasonable.
> 
> ...


Would you want them to charge you more for the service. You have to remember some thing the more they pay out the more they going to charge for there service.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

bizzy said:


> I don't understand why Tivo ensuring the quality of guide programming is such an outlandish concept to you.


I am sorry but why do you insist on TiVo adding value to its customers for the premium those customers pay TiVo?

you are not supposed to challenge TiVo, don't you remember?


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

caddyroger said:


> Would you want them to charge you more for the service. You have to remember some thing the more they pay out the more they going to charge for there service.


No, I want them to do what I already pay them to do.

Provide me a working DVR, and useable guide information.

Why would I need to pay extra?

When you buy a car, do you pay extra for air in the tires?


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

caddyroger said:


> Would you want them to charge you more for the service. You have to remember some thing the more they pay out the more they going to charge for there service.


that's a great idea. Maybe TiVo should also charge customers by HD resolutions?

Customer: "Yes, I would like to have 1080i on my TiVo."
TiVo: "Sure. We will charge you a monthly fee of $5 to upgrade you to our Platinum class which entitles you to receiving 1080i on your TiVo, and a one-time set-up fee for $125".
C: "well, that's a lot of money. Can we do 720p?"
T: "sure. There is a Bronze class which is on sale for just $3.75 that gives you 720p on your TiVo. But you need to pay $150 in one-time set-up fee and another $4.75 to acquire such functionality on your remote."

That sounds like a paradize, doesn't it?


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

bizzy said:


> No, I want them to do what I already pay them to do.
> 
> Provide me a working DVR, and useable guide information.
> 
> ...


You pay so they can hire the worker to look every up to make sure it correct.
Now do think that the dealer is going to put a bigger eng. upgrade the stereo for nothing.
I lol when people wants some thing done but don't want pay for it.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

caddyroger said:


> You pay so they can hire the worker to look every up to make sure it correct.
> Now do think that the dealer is going to put a bigger eng. upgrade the stereo for nothing.
> I lol when people wants some thing done but don't want pay for it.


Hey. Genius. What is difficult for you to understand.

We DO pay for it.


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

bizzy said:


> Hey. Genius. What is difficult for you to understand.
> 
> We DO pay for it.


 More of a genus then you by the looks of it. You would be the one paying $20.00 worth of food and only charging $15.00. That whats you want tivo to pay more but don't charge more. That not a good business sense Pay more then what you bring in.
When that happens the business goes out of business.
Just because we pay for it is enough for tivo to operate with added costs.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

qili said:


> that's a great idea. Maybe TiVo should also charge customers by HD resolutions?
> 
> Customer: "Yes, I would like to have 1080i on my TiVo."
> TiVo: "Sure. We will charge you a monthly fee of $5 to upgrade you to our Platinum class which entitles you to receiving 1080i on your TiVo, and a one-time set-up fee for $125".
> ...


It sounds like what the cable company is already doing (well, they don't differentiate between 720p and 1080i, only between HD and SD). 

You even managed to get the remote rental fee in there!


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## BobB (Aug 26, 2002)

bizzy said:


> I pay a monthly fee to Tivo as a service provider. I would like to assume that they perform some level of quality assurance on the guide information they sell me. I am not sure why that is unreasonable.


Yes, and they provide you the service they contract for - the ability to manage the content that you buy from your content provider. Do you hold the local newspaper (which prints the same listings, from the same sources, as TiVO) responsible?

I don't understand why you seem to think it would be a trivial feat for them to analyze changes that content providers make within their own lineups. Just in the Boston area alone I can find dozens of different cable channel lineups, depending on which provider you're using and and which town you're in. Nationally there must be thousands, all capable of changing whatever they like on a daily basis. Implementing anything like this on a national scale would entail a huge amount of manpower, and thus cost them (and ultimately us) a fortune.

And what exactly, in the end, would you want them to do? They can't go to Time Warner (or whoever) and tell them they can't, say, move a channel to a different number. Just deciding what is a "reasonable" change or not is highly debatable.

If you think making sense out of channel lineup changes is a service people would be willing to pay for, I suggest you start a business that does it. Just don't look to me to invest in it. And stop complaining that TiVO isn't doing something it's not supposed to be doing in the first place.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

caddyroger said:


> More of a genus then you by the looks of it.


sounds like some of us think with $9.95 we are buying the box and correct guide data, and you think to get the right data we should pay more.

no wonder companies love you so much.

have you thought about paying another $200 for a *working* TiVo box? for another $50 so that your sandwich will be prepared in a clean environment and free of drools from that high school kid behind the counter?


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

I give up. You're right. I should never presume to expect that the Tivo guide information which I subscribe to is correct.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

BobB said:


> And stop complaining that TiVO isn't doing something it's not supposed to be doing in the first place.


when did TiVo say that providing the correct guide data is NOT what they are supposed to do?

I must have missed that one.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

I can almost see the new and improved TiVo commercial:

"Your TiVo® box, powered by the amazing TiVo® service, automatically finds and digitally records all of your favorite shows, every time they're on - *as long as you make sure that your guide data is correct!*"



what's the value of a DVR with the wrong guide data?

Isn't that the same as a wrong map?


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## BobB (Aug 26, 2002)

qili said:


> sounds like some of us think with $9.95 we are buying the box and correct guide data, and you think to get the right data we should pay more.
> 
> no wonder companies love you so much.
> 
> have you thought about paying another $200 for a *working* TiVo box? for another $50 so that your sandwich will be prepared in a clean environment and free of drools from that high school kid behind the counter?


False analogy. A truer analogy to your position would be holding a newspaper vendor responsible for the accuracy of the newspapers he sells. TiVO is not in the guide creation business, they just pass along what they're given by the cable companies. Frankly, they already add value by telling you when something has changed.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

BobB said:


> False analogy. A truer analogy to your position would be holding a newspaper vendor responsible for the accuracy of the newspapers he sells.


i'm lollin


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## BobB (Aug 26, 2002)

bizzy said:


> I give up. You're right. I should never presume to expect that the Tivo guide information which I subscribe to is correct.


I'm not saying that you have no right to be upset when your guide data is incorrect, just that you're barking up the wrong tree by expecting that it's TiVO's job to fix it. It's not, it's the cable company's job. All TiVO is doing is passing along, in good faith and with full up-front disclosure, information that they HAVE NO WAY OF VERIFYING is correct or not.

As I said above, if you think there's money to be made in the huge job of verifying cable listings, start a business and do it.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

qili and bizzy,
I'm trying to be even headed here... It is simply impractical for TiVo to verify all of the channel data across all the providers across all of the states and PR. It just can't happen. You may claim that your service fees entitle you to perfect data but it just can't happen. For TiVo to be a viable business the costs would be prohibitive. If there are mistakes (and I find they rarely happen) then there is a mechanism to correct it.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

BobB said:


> A truer analogy to your position would be holding a newspaper vendor responsible for the accuracy of the newspapers he sells.


False analogy. a truer analogy to your position would be paying a premium to a newspaper vendor for pile of newspaper ash.

the newspaper vendor is in the business of delivering to you a paper that you can read.

Frankly, they don't add value by just giving you something that you cannot read.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

BobB said:


> All TiVO is doing is passing along, in good faith and *with full up-front disclosure*, information that they HAVE NO WAY OF VERIFYING is correct or not.


where did TiVo disclose that they can provide you with wrong guide data without you having any recourse?

and what makes you think that there is no way of verifying the guide data? TiVo may not want to verify the guide data. But they have no way of verifying the guide data?

it is OK to defend a certain strategy but shouldn't we all stay within reason?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

qili said:


> it is OK to defend a certain strategy but shouldn't we all stay within reason?


Pot, meet kettle.


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## BobB (Aug 26, 2002)

qili said:


> False analogy. a truer analogy to your position would be paying a premium to a newspaper vendor for pile of newspaper ash.
> 
> the newspaper vendor is in the business of delivering to you a paper that you can read.
> 
> Frankly, they don't add value by just giving you something that you cannot read.


If you're saying that the listings passed along from the cable company in the TiVO program guide are incorrect to the point that the service is unusable, then by all means, you should cancel both your TiVO service and your cable subscription.

However, I very much doubt that this is the case. Now you're just yelling for the sake of yelling. Conversation over. B'bye!


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

TiVo (the company) does NOT create the guide data, they do NOT change the channel names, they do NOT change the channel lineups. The owners of the Channel (in this cast GSN, decided to become THEN) change their channel names, the cablesystem creates and changes the channel lineups, and a third party creates the guidedata based on information provided by each channel. TiVo just acts on and passes this information. If you have a ***** about channel lineups, complain to your cable system, not TiVo. And on the rare occasion when lineups or data is wrong, TiVo responds to complaints very quickly.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

BobB said:


> Conversation over. B'bye!


you don't have to hide so far even if you couldn't back up your statement about TiVo's full disclosure on providng incorrect guide data.

stand up like a man, Bob.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

qili said:


> you don't have to hide so far even if you couldn't back up your statement about TiVo's full disclosure on providng incorrect guide data.
> 
> stand up like a man, Bob.


From the Service Agreement:
19. Warranty Disclaimer. YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE TIVO SERVICE IS PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS. *TIVO MAKES NO WARRANTY THAT* THE TIVO SERVICE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, ALLOW YOU TO RECORD, VIEW OR TRANSFER ANY PARTICULAR PROGRAMMING, OR *THAT USE OF THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE *UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE, OR *ERROR-FREE*; *NOR DOES TIVO MAKE ANY WARRANTY AS TO THE ACCURACY OR RELIABILITY OF ANY INFORMATION OBTAINED THROUGH THE TIVO SERVICE* (INCLUDING THIRD PARTY CONTENT), THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE CORRECTED OR THAT THE TIVO DVR OR TIVO SERVICE WILL BE COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER SPECIFIC HARDWARE OR SERVICE. FURTHER, TIVO DOES NOT WARRANT THAT THE TIVO SERVICE OR THE TIVO SERVERS THAT PROVIDE YOU WITH DATA AND CONTENT ARE FREE OF VIRUSES OR OTHER HARMFUL COMPONENTS. YOU (AND NOT TIVO) ASSUME THE ENTIRE COST OF ALL NECESSARY MAINTENANCE, REPAIR OR CORRECTION. TIVO ALSO ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY, AND WILL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES TO, OR VIRUSES THAT MAY INFECT YOUR TIVO DVR, TIVO SOFTWARE, OR OTHER HARDWARE. TIVO AND ITS SUPPLIERS DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, WHETHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED, OR STATUTORY, REGARDING THE TIVO SERVICE OR TIVO SOFTWARE, INCLUDING ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON- INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS. Because some jurisdictions do not permit the exclusion of implied warranties, the last sentence of this section may not apply to you.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

So... I guess the OP wanted them to KEEP the GSN listings for a channel that no longer exists in that place... or what? I don't get it.

And qili and bizzy, which line-up changes is it that you requested that TiVo did not respond to? My requests have been taken care of within a few days.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

MickeS said:


> So... I guess the OP wanted them to KEEP the GSN listings for a channel that no longer exists in that place... or what? I don't get it.


Yeah, that's the stupid thing about this whole thread. A lineup change means that the data being provided has changed. TiVo doesn't have the option of saying, no, we're going to stick with GSN until we check this out because data isn't being sent through for GSN on that carrier anymore.


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## mchief (Sep 10, 2005)

This horse be dead


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## DTG (Jan 17, 2001)

Recently I had a cable card outage, and got talking to a senior Comcast cable card tech.

It all started when comcast decided to move some analog channels, to make some space for some reason. Now, they had a channel that had been used for the old analog HBO content about 10 years ago. This HBO content got moved, and the original channel had not been used since then. So bright and early one morning, Comcast moved some of its content to that channel. And its TV tech support lines lit up. Hundreds of customers had lost access to about 6 digital channels. Comcast quickly realised that the problem was the old HBO channel filters. They dispatched techs to remove the filters, and that fixed the problems for that customer. But after 3 days Comcast finally gave up, and decided to move the content to another frequency group.

Well, that resolved the HBO problem. But it turned out the about 500 homes in some old age subdivision was using the newly chosen frequency for security and monitoring purposes. And the expense, effort and time to move their usage was excessive.

So comcast chose a third frequency group, and moved averything again. This time it took.


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## ado (Dec 6, 2007)

No, my original frustration was because Tivo has three identical channels. GSN used to be on channel 70, changed about 3 months ago but they decided to keep it there anyway. Ok. Added GSN again on channel 179, the actual channel that it was on (because I requested it, channel 70 does not work anymore obviously since it was changed). Today they got rid of a Nick channel and replaced it with another GSN (133), now all apparently called THEN. My only problem was why would I need three of the same channels. The problem IS NOT with comcast because my cable box downstairs is displaying the correct data. And doesn't tivo get their data from Tribune? Tribune sucks.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ado said:


> No, my original frustration was because Tivo has three identical channels. GSN used to be on channel 70, changed about 3 months ago but they decided to keep it there anyway. Ok. Added GSN again on channel 179, the actual channel that it was on (because I requested it, channel 70 does not work anymore obviously since it was changed). Today they got rid of a Nick channel and replaced it with another GSN (133), now all apparently called THEN. My only problem was why would I need three of the same channels. The problem IS NOT with comcast because my cable box downstairs is displaying the correct data. And doesn't tivo get their data from Tribune? Tribune sucks.


So what IS on those channels then, if not this THEN channel?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

ado said:


> The problem IS NOT with comcast because my cable box downstairs is displaying the correct data. And doesn't tivo get their data from Tribune? Tribune sucks.


Tribune is the best data provider in the U.S. There are only two major data providers in the U.S. and neither is perfect.

You are aware that the TiVo allows you to remove any channel you want, right? Go to Settings -> Channels -> Channel List and you can selectively delete the channels you don't receive, don't use, or don't want to see.


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## ado (Dec 6, 2007)

This is my channel lineup as of now:

70 - GSN
70 - THEN
133 - THEN
179 - GSN
179 - THEN

They deleted a Nick channel on 133. I just don't understand why I need two GSN channels and three THEN channels. Just checked the guide and the info for these channels are not the same, so I'm not sure if they are the same. I know it would be a lot of work to manually see if channels are correct, but is it that much to ask to only get one channel? Keep in my mind - my area doesn't have THEN. Thanks for the help though.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ado said:


> This is my channel lineup as of now:
> 
> 70 - GSN
> 70 - THEN
> ...


That sorta reminds me of a bug I had awhile back.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=337147

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4736093&&#post4736093

Couple of us had my problem above, the fix was to rerun guided setup with the wrong provider (satellite or antenna if you have cable), then rerunning guided setup a 2nd time with proper one to correct the mess. YMMV.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

ado said:


> This is my channel lineup as of now:
> 
> 70 - GSN
> 70 - THEN
> ...


A couple of things...


THEN is The-N... a new Nick channel, so it makes sense that THEN replaced NICK.
It is altogether possible that your provider is actually reporting the lineup you're seeing. I have FLIX listed twice in my lineup and, guess what... my provider is actually broadcasting it in both places for no apparent reason.

The bottom line is, figure out what those channels actually are and submit a lineup report to TiVo. It will be fixed in a few days.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

Oh hella sweet, I got a channel update tonight! I now get:

161 THEN

the awesome thing is, I still get:

161 GSN

This is better than SDV, I can get two channels at once! Tivo is AWESOME! And I only paid $399 for this service!!! WHAT A DEAL


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

bizzy said:


> Oh hella sweet, I got a channel update tonight! I now get:
> 
> 161 THEN
> 
> ...


Remove the one you don't want from the channel list? That would take you about 30 seconds.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

I don't know which one I don't want, mister smarty pants. I bought a Tivo so I wouldn't have to worry about this sort of nonsense.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bizzy said:


> I don't understand why Tivo ensuring the quality of guide programming is such an outlandish concept to you.


It isn't. You can report issues with your guide data to TiVo and they will forward them on to Gemstar to correct, usually within 48 hours. They cannot in all practicality scour the tens of thousands of different TV schedules available across America with a magnifying glass. They would have to charge at least ten times what they do for their service and hire an army of people to do the work. Since Gemstar already has an army of people doing the work and are charging considerably more than ten times what Tivo does nationwide, why would TiVo do such a silly thing?



bizzy said:


> I pay a monthly fee to Tivo as a service provider. I would like to assume that they perform some level of quality assurance on the guide information they sell me. I am not sure why that is unreasonable.


Since most of the errors in the process are produced by the CATV provider giving the wrong information to Gemstar, and you are paying the CATV provider more than you are Tivo for that very same service, how is it more TiVo's problem than the CATV provider?



bizzy said:


> I agree that it is a lot of work. If it wasn't, then we would all be doing it ourselves, and not paying them money. Correct?


Incorrect. TiVo doesn't do it, and it would be only somewhat less practical for them to do it than for you. "It" is done by the thousands of CATV companies around the nation reporting to the National TV Guide service run by Gemstar and paid for by the CATV companies, TV Guide magazine subscriptions and advertising, and of course TiVo, who is a client of Gemstar just like the CATV companies.



bizzy said:


> I don't have a business relationship with either for the guide data Tivo provides me for my subscription fees.


Oh, yes you do. You pay the local CATV company in order for them to put together their data (this is done at the local level, not by the corporate MSO) and send it to Gemstar and for the MSO to purchase the very same service from Gemstar that Tivo does. The fact you probably don't see it as a separate itemized part of your bill does not mean it is not part of what you are paying your CATV provider to provide for you. It is up to them to tell Gemstar what programs they are going to put on which channels - since no one else on Earth knows this, and it is up to Gemstar to make sure they don't make any mistakes in collecting and distributing the data. All Tivo does is pay the bill, and of course pass on any complaints from their customers.



bizzy said:


> If they are getting garbage from their business partners, they need to clean their own house out- not tell me its "not their problem".


Gemstar is no more their business partner than the CATV company is and no more than the CATV company is a business partner of Gemstar. Regardless, TiVo has absolutely no way of knowing an error exists, except that their customers report it. How are they supposed to know the CATV company is actually putting a program on channel 76 rather than 67?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bizzy said:


> It sure would be nice if they at least did a sanity check on them.


How? What do you suggest they (Gemstar, actually, not Tivo) do to make certain the information they have gotten from the CATV company is actually what they meant to send? How do you suggest they check the engineer at the CATV headend hasn't accidentally assigned it to the wrong channel ID? They can and should double-check that what they send out is what the CATV provider sent them, but otherwise what od you suggest they do?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

qili said:


> I am sorry but why do you insist on TiVo adding value to its customers for the premium those customers pay TiVo?


Have you ever purchased something from Best Buy, Fry's, or CompUSA which didn't work out of the box? Did you insist to prevent this from happening Best Buy hire thousands of engineers to go onsite with the manufacturers and look over their shoulders? No? So why are you insisting Tivo, who is in this respect nothing but a retailer perform QC over their wholesaler (Gemstar) and the manufacturers (the CATV companies)?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bizzy said:


> No, I want them to do what I already pay them to do.
> 
> Provide me a working DVR, and useable guide information.


Just like your car dealer, they provide you with what the manufacturer supplies them. Just like you car dealer (or maybe much better), it's usually of high quality.



bizzy said:


> Why would I need to pay extra?


If you want a Cadillac instead of a Buick, you have to pay extra.



bizzy said:


> When you buy a car, do you pay extra for air in the tires?


Do you blame your car dealer when you pick up a nail and your tire goes flat? More to the point, you are asking the car dealer to provide you not with regular air, but Helium, and you had better believe the dealer will charge you extra for putting Helium in your tires rather than plain air.

The bottom line is it simply is not practical for TiVo to hire several thousand extra employees in several thousand cities to work one-on-one with the local CATV programming staff just to make sure they don't report the wrong thing to Gemstar.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

qili said:


> sounds like some of us think with $9.95 we are buying the box and correct guide data, and you think to get the right data we should pay more.


You are making it very difficult not to launch a vitriolic ad-hominem attack in rebuttal. If you are being deliberately obtuse, please stop it. If you are truly that dense, then I'm sorry, but you'll never understand and you'll simply have to take the word of those of us who do understand. Assuming you are not truly that dense, however, I'll try to get you to understand. How many channels are in your lineup? Of all the channels in your lineup, how many are wrong? How long did they remain wrong after you reported the problem to TiVo?

OK, now take that number of channels in the lineup, and multiply it by 10,000 or so. The result is over a million. Now take the total number of channels in error in the U.S, and divide it by that number. The result is probably less than .001%. Now multiply that number by the number of days the errors are in place on average and divide by 365. The result is probably about .00001% or less - maybe much less. Find me a manufacturer whose product fails less than .00001% per year and I'll eat my Tivo. But now you are insisting not the manufacturer (the CATV company) but rather the retailer (TiVo) hire over 10,000 full time employees at a cost of over $200 Million a year to sit full time with each CATV company's local programming staff and engineering staff to make sure they haven't made any errors and that Gemstar hasn't gotten anything wrong in translation just so you can eliminate some of that .00001% error? And that they not pass on that enormous cost to you?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bizzy said:


> I give up. You're right. I should never presume to expect that the Tivo guide information which I subscribe to is correct.


No, but only a truly phenomenal moron would expect any information stream form any source to be 100% error free. Mistakes are going to happen. We are already paying collectively several tens of millions of dollars a year to make the i8nformation as error-free and up-to-date as is practical. It is completely unreasonable to expect one entity in the group of hundreds in the mix to be able to significantly decrease the error rate unless they themselves are responsible for a large fraction of the errors. It is also completely unreasonable to suggest they spend the vast amount of money to try to attempt such a foolish thing without even considering recouping their costs for the venture.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

qili said:


> False analogy. a truer analogy to your position would be paying a premium to a newspaper vendor for pile of newspaper ash.
> 
> the newspaper vendor is in the business of delivering to you a paper that you can read.
> 
> Frankly, they don't add value by just giving you something that you cannot read.


His analogy is *MUCH* closer than yours, but if we are to use yours, how on Earth do you come off by saying the TiVo is completely unuseable just because one channel is wrong for a few days? Using your analogy, one of the words in one of the paragraphs on page 12 is smudged. Do you go running down to the local newspaper stand and demand they buy a new $10 million dollar printing press for the newspaper so it will never happen again?

Apparently so.

Do us a favor. Sell your Tivo. Then sell your computer.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

qili said:


> and what makes you think that there is no way of verifying the guide data?


Because we understand how the data is generated. What makes you think there is a way? Tell us, exactly, how a group of individuals at Tivo Inc should go about verifying that an engineer in Tulsa, OK actually put the program content on channel 97 that the programming staff said he would. Then tell us how they are supposed to do the same thing for more than 10,000 other schedules in the U.S.



qili said:


> it is OK to defend a certain strategy but shouldn't we all stay within reason?


It is you who are being totally unreasonable. Whether you know it or not and whether you are capable of understanding it or not, you are demanding the staff at TiVo be omniscient and if not omnipotent, at least far above superhuman.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ado said:


> This is my channel lineup as of now:
> 
> 70 - GSN
> 70 - THEN
> ...


Unless you have both OTA and CATV feeds enabled, this is not an error in the guide information but an error (or several) on your TiVo. Incorrect guide listings are due to errors in the guide data. Duplicate channel listings are something internal or else due to corrupted guide data, which is completely different than incorrect guide data.


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## ado (Dec 6, 2007)

I went in and unchecked 70, 179 and now everything is ok. Experienced another black screen of death though


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## mikeylikesit40 (Nov 28, 2006)

OMFG! This is a hilarious thread.

My gosh folks.... this is simple. Read your agreements with TIVO.

TIVO would be complete morons if they decided to change their business strategy (what they are really charging you for) and hire 10,000 minimum wage folks to check every Guide in every cable market every day.

Here's how it works.

YOUR cable company notifies Gemstar of a change. Gemstar implements change. Tivo recieves change and you see it on your screen. Oh I forgot, the Tivo folks were nice enough to throw some code in that would recognize that something changed and tell you.

If you have a problem with the lineup... then your cable company (the source of the data) and/or Gemstar (who sells the data) should be notified.

Leave poor Tivo alone.

And for you analogy folks out there... If I look at the TV schedule in the local newspaper and it's wrong, who is responsible? Remember, they recieve the information from a 'source'. They don't compile it or make it up. They simply print what the 'source' tells them to.

So, please call your local newspapers and start complaining that 'I Dream of Jeannie' was on instead of 'Bugs Bunny'. 

I can see newspaper employees laughing all over America....


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

mikeylikesit40 said:


> OMFG! This is a hilarious thread.
> 
> My gosh folks.... this is simple. Read your agreements with TIVO.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of your post, except this:



> If you have a problem with the lineup... then your cable company (the source of the data) and/or Gemstar (who sells the data) should be notified.


If there is a problem with your line up you should notify Tivo to have it corrected. We do subscribe to Tivo (not Gemstar) and that is who is responsible to provide us accurate data. I don't have an affiliation with Gemstar, but Tivo does. As mentioned multiple times, in MOST cases Tivo will confirm the error and have it corrected within a couple of days.

P.S. To those who think that Tivo should provide 100% error free data, are you 100% perfect all the time? Do you never make any mistakes, even as simple as a typo in an email?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

qili and bizzy,

I would still like to hear even one suggestion on how those who expect TiVo to verify data could possibly do such a thing. Do you suggest they set up physical offices in every node of every video provider where they offer service? Then they would have to pay for every possible premium channel? Then they would have to pay someone to confirm?

Maybe I'm the crazy one here but I just don't see how it is even possible.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Because we understand how the data is generated.


there is a difference between what you think you understand and what you understand.

you have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that you don't understand what you think you understand.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

ah30k said:


> Maybe I'm the crazy one here but I just don't see how it is even possible.


You're not. Qili spends most of his/her time here whining over just about every aspect of Tivo. Anyone who demands this level of perfection over a freakin' DVR is the crazy one.



qili said:


> there is a difference between what you think you understand and what you understand.
> 
> you have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that you don't understand what you think you understand.


That's wonderfully useful. How about trying this instead - tell us how the guide data is generated and why ah30k is wrong. If you can't, then you're just spouting off to someone who has been quite useful in providing accurate information.

Honestly, why do you even own a Tivo? I seem to remember you spending a large chunk of time in the "The S3 Stinks" and other similar threads. Why bother with a DVR that's so bad?


----------



## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

ado said:


> Why does Tivo have to change my listings for no reason? They just assigned one channel (THEN)  three times (to channels 133, 70, 179). I didn't ask for this change nor have i ever heard of this channel. Even worse, they got rid of GSN to replace it with a non-existing channel!


Then is 104 on my tivo hd. but when i go to 104 all i get is the cable card menu. 104 works on the charter box. why do i get the cable card menu on 104?

thanks


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

tootal2 said:


> Then is 104 on my tivo hd. but when i go to 104 all i get is the cable card menu. 104 works on the charter box. why do i get the cable card menu on 104?


Because Charter hasn't added the station to the cablecard map yet. Assuming it's in a tier you get, it means Charter has erroneous data. Note if it was just recently added (last day or two) your TiVo might not have the latest cablemap; rebooting your TiVo will force the reloading of the latest cablemap - I would do that just before calling Charter.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

CrispyCritter said:


> Because Charter hasn't added the station to the cablecard map yet. Assuming it's in a tier you get, it means Charter has erroneous data. Note if it was just recently added (last day or two) your TiVo might not have the latest cablemap; rebooting your TiVo will force the reloading of the latest cablemap - I would do that just before calling Charter.


Thanks i will try that. But i dont think theres anything on then i want to watch.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> How? What do you suggest they (Gemstar, actually, not Tivo) do to make certain the information they have gotten from the CATV company is actually what they meant to send?


Currently, I have TWO channel 161's.
How hard can that be to catch, for chrissakes.

I am not asking for superhuman feats here.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

ah30k said:


> I would still like to hear even one suggestion on how those who expect TiVo to verify data could possibly do such a thing.


Gosh gomer, I wonder if Tivo has a group of people who beta test the code before a general release. I wonder if they coordinate them on a forum maybe really a lot like this one. I wonder if maybe with a little effort, they could pull together a correlated database of beta testers and MSO market/regions. I wonder if maybe when Tivo got an update from an MSO, they could contact a tester in that region to confirm if/when the change happned.

Probably it would be difficult to get the tiny markets. But really the 90/10 rule would work here, and I am confident they could confirm updates that affect the 90 percent of their customers in reasonably large markets.



ah30k said:


> Maybe I'm the crazy one here but I just don't see how it is even possible.


I know. My brain just nearly exploded figuring this one out.


----------



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

=


bizzy said:


> Gosh gomer, ...I know. My brain just nearly exploded figuring this one out.


If you want to be taken at all seriously, we should keep the name calling out of it...



bizzy said:


> I wonder if Tivo has a group of people who beta test the code before a general release.


It is not related at all to software releases. This checking needs to happen asynchronously with software releases. Every time a channel change occurs they need to seek volunteers in effected markets? All of your complaining about TiVos responsibilities and your only answer is volunteers? How reliable would that be?



bizzy said:


> Probably it would be difficult to get the tiny markets. But really the 90/10 rule would work here, and I am confident they could confirm updates that affect the 90 percent of their customers in reasonably large markets.


How far away from perfect data is OK, just as long as you are good?


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

ah30k said:


> It is not related at all to software releases. This checking needs to happen asynchronously with software releases. Every time a channel change occurs they need to seek volunteers in effected markets? All of your complaining about TiVos responsibilities and your only answer is volunteers? How reliable would that be?


I never said there would need to be any synchronization with software releases, but thanks for the straw man.

I simply said that Tivo already has a geographically diverse pool of testers who more than likely would not mind it if every once in a while, Tivo asked something like "Hey Chigago Comcast users, what do you get on channel 32?".

Currently from what I understand, their software beta testing is all volunteer, and I don't see you complaining about that; so why would you suggest that the efficacy of trivial channel information queries be worse?


----------



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

bizzy said:


> Currently from what I understand, their software beta testing is all volunteer, and I don't see you complaining about that; so why would you suggest that the efficacy of trivial channel information queries be worse?


You are asking for perfect data from a company and then suggesting volunteers fill that responsibility. I would never expect volunteers to deliver verification of something that you expect to be perfect.

Not to mention, how long do you wait for these volunteers to get around to it before rolling out the change to the field? Non-beta testers are missing season pass recordings and getting bad quide data while you are waiting for the beta testers to respond.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

bizzy said:


> I give up. You're right. I should never presume to expect that the Tivo guide information which I subscribe to is correct.


You do realize we don't all have the same channel line-ups where TiVo is available right? Even if we have "Comcast" as a common provider, my full line-up, and where they sit channel wise is not the same as Sacramento Comcast. So it's not as cut and dry as you think. I only got one message regarding "Then", so if ya wanna complain, call your provider, they are the ones screwing up, not TiVo.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

Langree said:


> You do realize we don't all have the same channel line-ups where TiVo is available right? Even if we have "Comcast" as a common provider, my full line-up, and where they sit channel wise is not the same as Sacramento Comcast. So it's not as cut and dry as you think. I only got one message regarding "Then", so if ya wanna complain, call your provider, they are the ones screwing up, not TiVo.


I trust you've now caught up with the rest of the thread.

But thanks for explaining to me how cable tv works


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bizzy said:


> I never said there would need to be any synchronization with software releases, but thanks for the straw man.


Umm, what exactly do you think "beta testers" are for? I'll give a hint - software releases.

Do you honestly think Tivo has beta testers for every single channel lineup change that occurs?


----------



## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

bizzy said:


> I trust you've now caught up with the rest of the thread.
> 
> But thanks for explaining to me how cable tv works


To bad you still don't get it.

You may not like the answer, but it doesn't make it less valid.

In fact, you live close to TiVo, go volunteer your time to double check the hundreds of different channel line-ups they deal with.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

ah30k said:


> You are asking for perfect data from a company and then suggesting volunteers fill that responsibility. I would never expect volunteers to deliver verification of something that you expect to be perfect.


"Perfect" is your straw man. I never used the word "perfect". In fact, I invoked the 90/10 rule.

Tivo, like many companies, uses volunteer beta testers. The practice seems to be somewhat useful.



ah30k said:


> Not to mention, how long do you wait for these volunteers to get around to it before rolling out the change to the field? Non-beta testers are missing season pass recordings and getting bad quide data while you are waiting for the beta testers to respond.


I never suggested that there be any sort of dependency there. Again, another straw man. All I suggested is taking advantage of geographically distributed testers to sanity check updates/changes, just like they do currently for software updates.

The rest is some imaginary conversation you're having with someone besides me. Please stop putting words in my mouth, even if it makes it easier for you to argue with me.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

bizzy said:


> "Perfect" is your straw man. I never used the word "perfect". In fact, I invoked the 90/10 rule.
> 
> Tivo, like many companies, uses volunteer beta testers. The practice seems to be somewhat useful.
> 
> ...


Let me get this clear...

You want to roll out the channel change then poll every region for volunteer testers so that changes can get fixed in a timely manner.

This will be so much better than the current plan which rolls out the changes and asks people to report discrepancies in what way?

I say you want perfect data because you seem hell bent on complaining if the data is wrong. Simple as that.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bizzy said:


> "Perfect" is your straw man. I never used the word "perfect". In fact, I invoked the 90/10 rule.
> 
> Tivo, like many companies, uses volunteer beta testers. The practice seems to be somewhat useful.
> 
> ...


You've spent more time here complaining about the fact that you have two 161 channels than it would have taken you to simply remove one 161 channel from your "Channels I Receive" list. You do realize that, right? And it's not by just a little bit, either. Probably something like a factor of 100.

So here Tivo is, giving you a real easy way to fix a problem caused by your cable company. Your response is that Tivo should instead have recruited volunteers served by 90% of the cable head-ends in the country to ensure you don't have to spend 10 second removing one channel from your channel list. I know technology makes some people lazy, but this is ridiculous.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

TexasAg said:


> Your response is that Tivo should instead have recruited volunteers served by 90% of the cable head-ends in the country to ensure you don't have to spend 10 second removing one channel from your channel list. I know technology makes some people lazy, but this is ridiculous.


I'm saying that Tivo no doubt has ALREADY recruited these people for beta testing. The resource is ALREADY THERE.

Thanks for calling me lazy, but I think you've got some reading comprehension issues. Isn't it a little ironic that in the same breath you're accusing me of laziness, and advocating the status quo.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bizzy said:


> Isn't it a little ironic that in the same breath you're accusing me of laziness, and advocating the status quo.


Your solution is that Tivo should recruit people, collect data from them, analyze the data, etc. all to identify a problem caused by a cable company, possibly at a single head-end of that cable company.

My solution is that you use the existing functionality to quickly and easily remove a duplicate channel.

Yeah, it's really ironic to call you lazy.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

TexasAg said:


> Your solution is that Tivo should recruit people, collect data from them, analyze the data, etc. all to identify a problem caused by a cable company, possibly at a single head-end of that cable company.
> 
> My solution is that you use the existing functionality to quickly and easily remove a duplicate channel.
> 
> Yeah, it's really ironic to call you lazy.


Why do you continue to lie about what I've said in order to make your position stronger? This is a web forum, all we need to do is scroll up to see I've never suggested that tivo recruit an army of channel checkers as you continually assert.

And yeah, trying to come up with a better solution to a problem is really lazy. Accepting the status quo is downright athletic.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

bizzy said:


> I'm saying that Tivo no doubt has ALREADY recruited these people for beta testing. The resource is ALREADY THERE.


But since Channel line up info itself isn't the responsibility of TiVo, why use their resources to find erroneous channel info. Hell, I don't even know if ALL the channels I receive are correct, I know the ones I watch are. It wouldn't just be a matter of flipping through to see if there's a broadcast there. It may not be the correct broadcast. Then you have line-up issues, one tester may not subscribe to the channel they need checked.

There are to many variables to make what you suggest viable.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Bizzy, You may have missed this question you you or you may be ignoring it since it doesnt' suit your argument. Could you answer this?


ah30k said:


> You want to roll out the channel change then poll every region for volunteer testers so that changes can get fixed in a timely manner.
> 
> This will be so much better than the current plan which rolls out the changes and asks people to report discrepancies in what way?


----------



## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bizzy said:


> Why do you continue to lie about what I've said in order to make your position stronger? This is a web forum, all we need to do is scroll up to see I've never suggested that tivo recruit an army of channel checkers as you continually assert.
> 
> And yeah, trying to come up with a better solution to a problem is really lazy. Accepting the status quo is downright athletic.


Here's what you said.

_Gosh gomer, I wonder if Tivo has a group of people who beta test the code before a general release. I wonder if they coordinate them on a forum maybe really a lot like this one. I wonder if maybe with a little effort, they could pull together a correlated database of beta testers and MSO market/regions. I wonder if maybe when Tivo got an update from an MSO, they could contact a tester in that region to confirm if/when the change happned._

Congrats. You're right. You didn't suggest recruiting an army of volunteers. You just explicitly said Tivo should use an existing army of volunteers. My mistake.

Now that that's cleared up, how would your system work? I assume Tivo would have to contact the members of its existing army of volunteers and ask for their permission to be called every time a lineup change might be occurring. And Tivo would need to spend money on personnel to call those voluntees for every single channel lineup change. Or maybe Tivo could devote some development money and create an automated system for contacting volunteers electronically every time a lineup change occurs, then delay the lineup change implementation for all other users until the volunteers respond (assuming they do respond).

All so you don't have to uncheck a box. Yeah, that's really a "better" solution.

I think advocating for the "status quo" - a system that works well in most situations and gives the user an easy fix when it doesn't - might work a little better.


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## azitnay (Jan 20, 2003)

bizzy said:


> Currently, I have TWO channel 161's.
> How hard can that be to catch, for chrissakes.
> 
> I am not asking for superhuman feats here.


Multiple channels sharing a single number isn't all that uncommon... Here in DC, channel 79 is shared by CSPAN2 and MASN2/CSN+. When there's a relevant sporting event on, it's broadcast. Otherwise, we get to see the Senate.

Regardless of whether the duplicate channel is a mistake in your case, it's not as easy as you seem to think to avoid.

Drew


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

TexasAg said:


> Congrats. You're right. You didn't suggest recruiting an army of volunteers. You just explicitly said Tivo should use an existing army of volunteers. My mistake.


Thanks for acknowledging that.



TexasAg said:


> Now that that's cleared up, how would your system work? I assume Tivo would have to contact the members of its existing army of volunteers and ask for their permission to be called every time a lineup change might be occurring. And Tivo would need to spend money on personnel to call those voluntees for every single channel lineup change. Or maybe Tivo could devote some development money and create an automated system for contacting volunteers electronically every time a lineup change occurs, then delay the lineup change implementation for all other users until the volunteers respond (assuming they do respond).


I already covered that, but thanks for a new straw man. The fact is, they communicate with beta testers via a web forum. There's no giant effort or investment to build a new network for coordinating this. I already said this, but ignoring it makes it easier for your to inject specious arguments into the discussion.



TexasAg said:


> I think advocating for the "status quo" - a system that works well in most situations and gives the user an easy fix when it doesn't - might work a little better.


That's 100% fine with me! But pleae don't call me "lazy" for suggesting an alternate idea.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

lazy


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bizzy said:


> I already covered that, but thanks for a new straw man. The fact is, they communicate with beta testers via a web forum. There's no giant effort or investment to build a new network for coordinating this. I already said this, but ignoring it makes it easier for your to inject specious arguments into the discussion.


And how much money should Tivo spend on altering its web forum AND implementing a system for delaying channel lineup changes (forgot about that little expense, huh) all so you don't have to uncheck a box?

And what exactly would Tivo do, leave the old incorrect guide/channel data in place, even after the lineup change occurred, until someone responds and says the lineup change is correct? That'll make a lot of people happy, they go to watch a recording from GSN and realize they have 3 days worth of THEN recordings because some guy didn't log onto the Tivo forum to report a channel change.



bizzy said:


> That's 100% fine with me! But pleae don't call me "lazy" for suggesting an alternate idea.


Yeah, you're practically a marathon runner with all the great ideas and typing you've done.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

TexasAg said:


> And how much money should Tivo spend on altering its web forum AND implementing a system for delaying channel lineup changes (forgot about that little expense, huh) all so you don't have to uncheck a box?
> 
> And what exactly would Tivo do, leave the old incorrect guide/channel data in place, even after the lineup change occurred, until someone responds and says the lineup change is correct? That'll make a lot of people happy, they go to watch a recording from GSN and realize they have 3 days worth of THEN recordings because some guy didn't log onto the Tivo forum to report a channel change.


Straw man number 17,500. I've already clarified that I never said updates should be delayed. Simply confirmed.

Thanks for playing.
How about another ad hominem insult? They're working well for you.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bizzy said:


> Straw man number 17,500. I've already clarified that I never said updates should be delayed. Simply confirmed.


So then I'll repeat the question you've avoided twice so far:

_You want to roll out the channel change then poll every region for volunteer testers so that changes can get fixed in a timely manner.

This will be so much better than the current plan which rolls out the changes and asks people to report discrepancies in what way?_



bizzy said:


> How about another ad hominem insult? They're working well for you.


You remind me of an old SNL skit, I think, where they had a character playing Mike Tyson using all sorts of big words because he had time to read the dictonary in prison but couldn't use the words correctly. Or is that "ironic"?

How about this - you've typed what, 4 or 5 thousand characters on a keyboard on this thread, all to complain about how you'd have to press maybe 5 or 10 buttons to remove a duplicate channel. That, I think, is ironic.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

TexasAg said:


> You want to roll out the channel change then poll every region for volunteer testers so that changes can get fixed in a timely manner.
> 
> This will be so much better than the current plan which rolls out the changes and asks people to report discrepancies in what way?


It guarantees that someone with the knowledge and ability to quickly report errors has vetted the change?

Most of us on the forum know where to find the channel lineup error page on Tivo's site. But we're probably less than a percent of the Tivo users out there.



TexasAg said:


> You remind me of an old SNL skit, I think, where they had a character playing Mike Tyson using all sorts of big words because he had time to read the dictonary in prison but couldn't use the words correctly. Or is that "ironic"?


Sorry. Will stop using big words. Did not mean to confuse you.

Not sure where I committed this supposed lexical sin, but please accept my apologies regardless.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bizzy said:


> It guarantees that someone with the knowledge and ability to quickly report errors has vetted the change?
> 
> Most of us on the forum know where to find the channel lineup error page on Tivo's site. But we're probably less than a percent of the Tivo users out there.
> 
> ...


I think Langree had it right. I should have just said: lazy.

And since I like getting useful info here instead of arguing with someone who complains about pressing a few buttons, I should probably take my leave. Let us know if you come up with any "better" ideas, marathon man. You're first one's a killer.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

bizzy said:


> It guarantees that someone with the knowledge and ability to quickly report errors has vetted the change?
> 
> Most of us on the forum know where to find the channel lineup error page on Tivo's site. But we're probably less than a percent of the Tivo users out there.


Ya, it's better to invest more time and resources, to set up a system that already has a solution in place. 

Have you bothered to check if the reason you show 2 separate entries for a single channel is because your carrier is splitting time on the channel? I'd forgotten about that probability until it was mentioned since I haven't run into it for a while.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

TexasAg said:


> I think Langree had it right.


Always.


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## mikeylikesit40 (Nov 28, 2006)

RBlount said:


> I agree with most of your post, except this:
> 
> If there is a problem with your line up you should notify Tivo to have it corrected. We do subscribe to Tivo (not Gemstar) and that is who is responsible to provide us accurate data. I don't have an affiliation with Gemstar, but Tivo does. As mentioned multiple times, in MOST cases Tivo will confirm the error and have it corrected within a couple of days.
> 
> P.S. To those who think that Tivo should provide 100% error free data, are you 100% perfect all the time? Do you never make any mistakes, even as simple as a typo in an email?


Well then I guess you would call your paperboy about the wrong listing too... since you 'subscribe' to the newspaper.

I'd suggest reading your agreement with Tivo. They are doing nothing more than providing the guide data in a readable format for your Tivo. Sorta like the newspaper putting it on a page for your to look at.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

Langree said:


> Always.


I see you're in Texas. Again, always right.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

Langree said:


> Ya, it's better to invest more time and resources, to set up a system that already has a solution in place.


I guess you had another momentary bout of illiteracy when I repeated that the resources are already in place.  indeed.



Langree said:


> Have you bothered to check if the reason you show 2 separate entries for a single channel is because your carrier is splitting time on the channel? I'd forgotten about that probability until it was mentioned since I haven't run into it for a while.


Actually, it is the same duplicate channel problem that the OP had.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

ah30k said:


> You are asking for perfect data from a company and then suggesting volunteers fill that responsibility. I would never expect volunteers to deliver verification of something that you expect to be perfect.
> 
> Not to mention, how long do you wait for these volunteers to get around to it before rolling out the change to the field? Non-beta testers are missing season pass recordings and getting bad quide data while you are waiting for the beta testers to respond.


I know i'd be thrilled if my TiVo got the new channels 2-3 days alter than my brother with a standard cable box because TiVo wanted to "verify" that my cable company wasn't giving bad data out. /sarcasm.

Seriously, people. This is a dumb conversation. It's in the best interest of the cable companies to provide correct data. When they screw up, they discover it pretty quickly and get it fixed. And if they don't, ***** at them.

Passing the buck on to TiVo is sad. Just because you pay them they should be responsible for QA? You pay your cable company for the channels. Where is their QA?

I pay AT&T for my DSL line. They should make sure that the web sites a view don't have errors in them and that I don't download viruses, right? They should also be responsible for making sure all DNS servers everywhere on the internet are accurate and that I never get Spam on my G-mail account.

Right?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bizzy said:


> Straw man number 17,500. I've already clarified that I never said updates should be delayed. Simply confirmed.


So in other words, you want a system that's exactly like today, except that TiVo should have a volunteer in every cable system that verifies that every time a line-up change has been made, the change is correct?

How is that so different from today's situation, where when a line-up change occurs, a message is sent out to all users, and someone who watches that channel will let TiVo know if the line-up change is incorrect? Other than that today's system is a lot more efficient and less costly, that is.

The change WOULD STILL HAVE HAPPENED in your scenario - the ONLY difference would be that TiVo would receive BOTH a negative verification from their volunteer (or is he paid?) AND a complaint from the viewer if something went wrong. If it was done correctly, in your system, TiVo would get a verification that it was done right (why they would need to know that? I have no idea.)

You need to go back to the drawing board here I think.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

bizzy said:


> Currently, I have TWO channel 161's.
> How hard can that be to catch, for chrissakes.
> 
> I am not asking for superhuman feats here.


No, just incorrect ones. (I have two channel 5's, just as I'm supposed to).


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

MickeS said:


> The change WOULD STILL HAVE HAPPENED in your scenario - the ONLY difference would be that TiVo would receive BOTH a negative verification from their volunteer (or is he paid?) AND a complaint from the viewer if something went wrong. If it was done correctly, in your system, TiVo would get a verification that it was done right (why they would need to know that? I have no idea.).


The channel update message doesn't contain information on how to report a bad update. And most people don't have the time/interest to report problems, especially for channels they arent interested in.

Presumably, most beta testers volunteer because they are both technically inclined and interested in making Tivo service better.

I am not sure why everyone is aghast at the idea of Tivo making another channel for problem reporting available.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

bizzy said:


> I guess you had another momentary bout of illiteracy when I repeated that the resources are already in place.  indeed.


You sure do like to toss insults dontchya?

Just because TiVo has resources for BETA TESTING doesn't mean that re-organizing and re-purposing will not tie up resources that cost TiVo money.

They have a system, the web page, I bet when someone posts a line-up issue, someone at TiVo gets a message to check it out. Did you use this system or just come here to complain?

I've read everything you've typed and aside from being snide and really not taking reality into account, accusing everybody of misrepresenting what you say or putting words in your mouth, you really haven't said anything useful at all.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bizzy said:


> I am not sure why everyone is aghast at the idea of Tivo making another channel for problem reporting available.


I'm not aghast, I just don't see why they need to. OK, so include a text with the link to the reporting website. That site WORKS and if a problem is reported there, they will fix it within a few days (I've used it 3 times I think). Have you submitted your issue to them there?

Setting up this whole organization to take care of a small issue that already HAS channels for resolution seems like a waste of money and effort.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

MickeS said:


> I'm not aghast, I just don't see why they need to. OK, so include a text with the link to the reporting website. That site WORKS and if a problem is reported there, they will fix it within a few days (I've used it 3 times I think). Have you submitted your issue to them there?
> 
> Setting up this whole organization to take care of a small issue that already HAS channels for resolution seems like a waste of money and effort.


Thats actually a great idea. I wonder why Tivo doesn't include the URL in the channel lineup update messages?


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## DrWho453 (Jul 16, 2005)

ado said:


> Why does Tivo have to change my listings for no reason? They just assigned one channel (THEN)  three times (to channels 133, 70, 179). I didn't ask for this change nor have i ever heard of this channel. Even worse, they got rid of GSN to replace it with a non-existing channel!


I also had the channel added 3 times. In the Raleigh area 183 and 351 GAS was changed to Then and 329 was also added as Then. Looking at TWC schedule 183 is part of the digital variety pack and 351 was part of the Family pack. However 329 shows up on the TWC schedule as the Game show network, however since I don't get that channel, I can't verify it. It just comes up as a blank video either its on SDV or its one that has to be subscribed too. My point here is that just because one channel is listed three times doesn't mean its wrong, it just means it may be available in the different tier levels from the cable company.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

mikeylikesit40 said:


> Well then I guess you would call your paperboy about the wrong listing too... since you 'subscribe' to the newspaper.
> 
> I'd suggest reading your agreement with Tivo. They are doing nothing more than providing the guide data in a readable format for your Tivo. Sorta like the newspaper putting it on a page for your to look at.


Hey, I was agreeing with you!

Unlike others who are posting in this thread %cough% bizzy %cough%, I completely understand that Tivo's data is subject to errors, hey everyone's human. However, I doubt anyone has a phone number to call Gemstar to report bad data. And calling Comcast and telling them my Tivo has the wrong channel will just result in being told to "call Tivo."

Tivo is still be place to start to report bad data, that is why they have a web page dedicated to reporting guide errors. They can then run the changes through the proper channels at Gemstar and the local Cable company and quickly get it fixed.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bizzy said:


> I never said there would need to be any synchronization with software releases, but thanks for the straw man.


No, but you compared it to a software release, and they are completely different animals. TiVo doesn't put out a couple of hundred releases of software every day from developers scattered in well over 5000 diffferent locations around the country. There are probably at least 200 guide changes a day across the country - perhaps more with the introduction of SDV.



bizzy said:


> I simply said that Tivo already has a geographically diverse pool of testers


You clearly don't understand the scope of the issue at hand. Your suggestion would be like trying to shoot needles off a pine tree with a shotgun blast.



bizzy said:


> who more than likely would not mind it if every once in a while, Tivo asked something like "Hey Chigago Comcast users, what do you get on channel 32?".


Chicago TiVo owners represent less than 1% of the TiVo owners in the United States, and it wouldn't do any good to "ask once in a while".


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mikeylikesit40 said:


> Well then I guess you would call your paperboy about the wrong listing too... since you 'subscribe' to the newspaper.


No, actually, it is a good idea to inform Tivo if there are discrepancies in the channel line-up. They even have a form on their website specifically for reporting just such discrepancies. They cannot themselves correct the misinformation, but they do have open channels to Gemstar who in turn has the proper contacts at the local CATV company. Using TiVo's communications channels to report the issue is one thing. Blaming them for the error and demanding they fix it is quite another. Suggesting they should enablesome gigantic global QC program to make certain none of the guides anywhere in the U.S. is in error is just moronic.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bizzy said:


> Why do you continue to lie about what I've said in order to make your position stronger? This is a web forum, all we need to do is scroll up to see I've never suggested that tivo recruit an army of channel checkers as you continually assert.


Oh, yes you did. The fact you did not say it in precisely those words is not relevant. The 90/10 rule you suggest would require Tivo to recruit several thousand volunteers across the country. Now either you can't do simple arithmetic or else your statements imply that very thing.



bizzy said:


> And yeah, trying to come up with a better solution to a problem is really lazy. Accepting the status quo is downright athletic.


Have you ever heard of attempting tol kill a gnat with a siege gun? That's what you are suggesting, and even contemplating such lunacy is a massive waste of time.


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## azitnay (Jan 20, 2003)

In lighter news, this morning I got a PTCM that channel 69, THEN, had been removed... Two-day turnaround. I'll take it.

Drew


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

This thread went dormant yesterday for a good bit of time and I hoped that it had been locked due to being beaten to death.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> No, but you compared it to a software release, and they are completely different animals. TiVo doesn't put out a couple of hundred releases of software every day from developers scattered in well over 5000 diffferent locations around the country. There are probably at least 200 guide changes a day across the country - perhaps more with the introduction of SDV.
> 
> You clearly don't understand the scope of the issue at hand. Your suggestion would be like trying to shoot needles off a pine tree with a shotgun blast.


At my day job, we launched a popular massively multiplayer online game last November. Prior to that, we ran an extensive beta test program for several months; with several thousand beta testers, who we communicated with and coordinated via a web forum. Just like Tivo does.

I clearly DO understand the scope. I've been there. I've done it. What practical experience do you bring to the discussion?

Adding notifications on those forums by region for lineup changes wouldn't be rocket science and would not be a herculean undertaking as you repeatedly assert.



lrhorer said:


> Chicago TiVo owners represent less than 1% of the TiVo owners in the United States, and it wouldn't do any good to "ask once in a while".


In context, my "once in a while" was correlated with lineup updates in that specific region. In context, it makes sense since they would only see updates "once in a while". I agree that when you take what I say out of context (or just make up things you pretend I said out of whole cloth) that it doesn't make sense.



lrhorer said:


> Oh, yes you did. The fact you did not say it in precisely those words is not relevant. The 90/10 rule you suggest would require Tivo to recruit several thousand volunteers across the country. Now either you can't do simple arithmetic or else your statements imply that very thing.


The fact is that those testers already exist and are engaged in dialog with Tivo. While ignoring this makes your argument stronger, it doesn't change the color of the sky in the world the rest of us live in.

Thanks again for the unprovoked attacks and insults in your last two replies.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

bizzy said:


> Thanks again for the unprovoked attacks and insults in your last two replies.


You're kidding right?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bizzy said:


> Adding notifications on those forums by region for lineup changes wouldn't be rocket science and would not be a herculean undertaking as you repeatedly assert.


why limit the scope. They have the forms on the main TiVo website to report lineup issues already. Surely even the "miss all those bugs" testers can find their way to the main website and report a lineup change just like the rest of us.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> They cannot themselves correct the misinformation,


right. I think there is even a provision in our constitution prohibiting them from doing that precisely.



why people are so eager to make up BS as you did is beyond me.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

qili said:


> right. I think there is even a provision in our constitution prohibiting them from doing that precisely.
> 
> 
> 
> why people are so eager to make up BS as you did is beyond me.


Did you read his whole entry? He's right, TiVo has no direct control over our guide data, where channel line up errors are concerned, that data comes from a third party.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

qili said:


> right. I think there is even a provision in our constitution prohibiting them from doing that precisely.
> 
> 
> 
> why people are so eager to make up BS as you did is beyond me.


qili, care to explain how Tivo is supposed to override the channel mappings provided by the cable company?

This is nuts - why do folks feel Tivo should jump through hoops and set up systems for ensuring proper channel lineups are provided by the cable company. If the channel mapping is wrong, call and blame your *cable* company, not the company that *must* use the cable company's data.


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## BobB (Aug 26, 2002)

ah30k said:


> This thread went dormant yesterday for a good bit of time and I hoped that it had been locked due to being beaten to death.


If only...

Still, it's getting to be kind of fun to watch. You know these two - well, let's be polite and call them "fervent contrarians" - are never, ever going to listen to reason, they're having way too much fun running their adrenaline levels up and calling everyone else names. It's them against everyone else who's bothered to respond here, and I'm sure they're heroes in their own minds. It won't end until they have no one left to swing at.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

I think the two primary antagonists are really dorm room buddies who are laughing their a$$ es off as they think up posted that are designed to get the most response.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Nazis.

someone had to say it


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## ado (Dec 6, 2007)

Wow i didn't think this was going to such a debate! 
Anyway tivo deleted the extra two THEN channels, so everything is in order now. I guess they've been reading these threads


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ado said:


> Wow i didn't think this was going to such a debate!
> Anyway tivo deleted the extra two THEN channels, so everything is in order now. I guess they've been reading these threads


Or maybe someone else actually did what they're supposed to do in cases like this: report it on TiVo's website, so TiVo can fix it within a few days. Crazy, I know, that they don't just go on a forum and complain instead, but that's how some are.


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## DrWho453 (Jul 16, 2005)

ado said:


> Wow i didn't think this was going to such a debate!
> Anyway tivo deleted the extra two THEN channels, so everything is in order now. I guess they've been reading these threads


Yea but they screwed up again. They deleted all three channels of THEN from the Raleigh TWC schedule and I know for a fact that two of them were correct and should not have been deleted. Third probably should have been deleted since I just got a blank screen and TW shows it on their schedule as the Game show network. So whoever is doing these scheduling stuff needs to pay more attention to what they are doing


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

BTW: THEN is actually The N, they used to be Noggins more mature programming, Degrassi, South of Nowhere, etc. Now you can get that stuff 24/7 in HUGE blocks.


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## 9300170 (Feb 21, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I'm not aghast, I just don't see why they need to. OK, so include a text with the link to the reporting website. That site WORKS and if a problem is reported there, they will fix it within a few days (I've used it 3 times I think). Have you submitted your issue to them there?.


Wow... what a thread about nothing.... i can't step away though. lol

Did want to comment...Tivo cannot always fix the error. I've been in contact with Tivo for months about WRNT channel 48 in Hartford. I send them a new request every month or so and they very politely tell me they can't fix the issue.


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## flyers (Dec 19, 2006)

Why is this even a Tivo problem?
The information given includes channels numbers which must reside in the digital tier. That means the tivo must be using a cablecard to recieve said digital channels.
Tivo must pass through the channel map as provided by your cable provider. It is not permitted to do otherwise. To do so would be a violation of the cablelab license...violate that, and no more digital channels for tivo. 

Stop complaining about tivo, the problem is the lazy NOC programmer at your cable provider. Call them and demand that they properly map and vet the cablecard channel map before rolling out any channel changes!

As for why it works on the cable companies POS box, well, it's a two-way communicating device and draws the data differently.


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