# Comcast and SDV



## JohnnyO (Nov 3, 2002)

As I try to decide my TV programming future, moving from DirecTV to local cable provider (Comcast) and buying a couple TiVo S3's seems be be near the top of my list, but then I read this item about SDV:



> Investors continue to press cable operators on their strategies to manage network capacity in the face of increasing VOD and HDTV service demand. Comcast said it plans to deploy switched digital video (SDV) infrastructure to address the problem. According to the report, Comcast execs plan to have a quarter of their footprint enabled for SDV by the end of 2007, and launch "the next 50 channels of HD" as switched channels.


http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=113263

I'd hate to lay down serious cash for two S3's and two 3-year commitments if the available programming is going to start being trimmed back later this year. I don't suppose TiVo will have any sort of hardware upgrade plan for their S3's...

Sigh. Never easy. Of course, I should be thankful that my life is so good that I have time to worry about TV.

John


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## PhillyGuy (Mar 12, 2006)

Tivo will not work with SDV channels now or in the future because it would require bidirectional communication which Tivo 3 is not capable of. 

However, be glad that you have comcast which has been much slower at adopting SDV than other cable companies, especially Time Warner. In many areas with TWC, all of the new HD channels added are placed on SDV.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> Tivo will not work with SDV channels now or in the future because it would require bidirectional communication which Tivo 3 is not capable of.


what about iptv, same issue? They are rolling out UVERSE here in the bay area. curious as to whether the tivo's are compatible or not.


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## PhillyGuy (Mar 12, 2006)

davecramer74 said:


> what about iptv, same issue? They are rolling out UVERSE here in the bay area. curious as to whether the tivo's are compatible or not.


No


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

davecramer74 said:


> what about iptv, same issue? They are rolling out UVERSE here in the bay area. curious as to whether the tivo's are compatible or not.


The S2 should work with a uverse STB for SD programming provided that Tivo has the necessary IR codes. The S3 will not work with uverse as is, though software could be added to allow integration with IPTV through the built in ethernet port, as to whether Tivo and ATT would ever agree to that is a different question.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

thanks!


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

In theory a USB-connected device could be created to attach to the S3 (and the cable line) that in conjunction with a software update could allow a Series 3 to control switched digital video.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

dswallow said:


> In theory a USB-connected device could be created to attach to the S3 (and the cable line) that in conjunction with a software update could allow a Series 3 to control switched digital video.


And the probability that will happen is so low that I won't waste my time considering it.


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## RFEngineer (Oct 30, 2006)

Hi JohnnyO. Fellow Twin Citiean here.

Like you, I was about 1 RCH away from pulling the trigger on an S3 -- I have an S1 and an S2 currently and enjoy the Tivo interface concepts immensely.

However, with the prospect of Comcast's commitment to rolling out future HD-channels, and "retrofitting" some existing content, using the SDV strategy -- I passed on the purchase.

I did pick up one of their Motorola 3416 DVRs (for what was $10, and is now $13 per month) and other than the fact that it is limited to about 20 hours of HD content, I've had no issues with it whatsoever. It records what I want it to record and looks good on playback. Not to mention it (like its non-DVR brethren) allows access to their considerable HD VOD library, that I must say is getting to be a very attractive feature as they flesh-out their content with that service. Of course, no upfront cost either -- which is always nice.

I'll wait for the S4...


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Where are all of those who claimed "its only Time Warner and it will only be fringe channels" now?


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## QZ1 (Mar 24, 2003)

ah30k said:


> Where are all of those who claimed "its only Time Warner and it will only be fringe channels" now?


Well, at AVS Forum it was reported that it was just TWC and a few channels when it started. I don't recall anyone there saying they wouldn't expand the SDV channels. And, I also read a while ago that Comcast was going to implement SDV eventually. Maybe there were different discussions here.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

petew said:


> The S2 should work with a uverse STB for SD programming provided that Tivo has the necessary IR codes. The S3 will not work with uverse as is, though software could be added to allow integration with IPTV through the built in ethernet port, as to whether Tivo and ATT would ever agree to that is a different question.


The Uverse supposedly works on the Xbox 360, or at least as announded by Bill Gatus of Borg. That should likely open Tivo for such a deal, if they wish to pursue that.


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## mcpa (Jan 2, 2007)

PhillyGuy said:


> Tivo will not work with SDV channels now or in the future because it would require bidirectional communication which Tivo 3 is not capable of.


Has anyone confirmed this with Tivo? CableCard 1.0 spec is based on 2-way functionality, so unless Tivo specifically chose to not enable 2-way...

"When a CableCARD 1.0 module is used with a two-way receiver (e.g., Samsung HLR5067C) that card supports all the necessary two-way functionality for VOD, SDV, and other interactive services."

This is from the cablecard_primer at opencable

...still on the S3 fence


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## Forcelite (Mar 19, 2006)

Ohh no we are on a sinking ship!!!!!

Man I should have waited to get the new $800 gadget.


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## tomryan (Sep 9, 2006)

Forcelite said:


> Ohh no we are on a sinking ship!!!!!
> 
> Man I should have waited to get the new $800 gadget.


if it wasn't enough that we didn't have mrv and ttg, we now miss out on all of the channels..

so really.. the cable companies win, they drag their feet on cablecards and then they realize that SDV is the answer to their "problems".. implement that, and us s3 users (I have 2 of them) are left in the dust..

I can only hope for a usb add on or better (as part of this "comcast" deal with tivo) , comcast agreeing to accept the two way communications over the ethernet in the tivo for those of us who are broadband customers 

i can only hope


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## JohnnyO (Nov 3, 2002)

RFEngineer said:


> Hi JohnnyO. Fellow Twin Citiean here.
> 
> Like you, I was about 1 RCH away from pulling the trigger on an S3 -- I have an S1 and an S2 currently and enjoy the Tivo interface concepts immensely.


Howdy Neighbor!

I'm still in SD land with my DirecTVivo. It has a very, very high WAF (Wife acceptance factor). If in my haste to move to HD I mess up our otherwise very workable TV environment, there will be frowns all around.

I guess I'll wait a bit more...


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## oysterhead (Oct 18, 2006)

best reason to buy at costco...

If the S3 is suddenly "out of date", then

I won't get refunded for the 3 yr Tivo price....

But I'll get every dollar back for the S3.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

mcpa said:


> Has anyone confirmed this with Tivo? CableCard 1.0 spec is based on 2-way functionality, so unless Tivo specifically chose to not enable 2-way...
> 
> "When a CableCARD 1.0 module is used with a two-way receiver (e.g., Samsung HLR5067C) that card supports all the necessary two-way functionality for VOD, SDV, and other interactive services."


The spec you should be looking at is the Unidirectional Cable Host spec which states that unidirectional products can't be two-way.

http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html


> The first type of Host product that can make use of the CableCARD module is the Unidirectional Digital Cable Product (UDCP) or "Digital Cable-Ready Receiver." These products were defined by FCC rules. The license a manufacturer signs for such products is the DFAST license and the requirements are found in the Joint Test Suite Conformance Checklist: PICS Proforma. For more information, please see www.cablelabs.com.
> 
> A second type of Host product is an M-UDCP device or a unidirectional receiver that uses an M-Card operating in M-Mode. In other words, a product that supports multiple tuners with a single CableCARD.
> 
> ...


http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/DFAST_Tech_License.pdf


> 1.19 Unidirectional Digital Cable Products means unidirectional (one-way) digital television products (including without limitation, televisions, set-top-boxes and recording devices) that use the DFAST Technology. *Unidirectional Digital Cable Products shall not include interactive (two-way) digital television products, including, without limitation, products that are capable of obtaining access to video-on-demand or impulse pay-per-view services, of using the return path of the cable system*, or of using electronic program guide services provisioned by the Cable Operator.


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## kemcg (Mar 13, 2002)

Will the Comcast boxes with Tivo handle the digital switching problem?

I just bought an S3, but have not recieved it yet. I am leary of transferring my lifetime to something that won't work in a year with all of the channels. Maybe I should hold out for the Comcast box. Maaaaaaannn, decisions......


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

kemcg said:


> Will the Comcast boxes with Tivo handle the digital switching problem?
> 
> I just bought an S3, but have not recieved it yet. I am leary of transferring my lifetime to something that won't work in a year with all of the channels. Maybe I should hold out for the Comcast box. Maaaaaaannn, decisions......


Most MSOs that are currently switching are SA systems. Comcast/TiVo will be launched in Moto systems.

Moto is a bit behind on rolling out SDV so we have some time (but not much). I would guess that the Comacst/TiVo should be SDV compatable by the time Comcast/Moto rolls out SDV.

Edit - as I read my post it sound mostly like gibberish, sorry, hope you get the idea.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

p.s. Get on the phone to your newly elected democrat congressman/woman!!!


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## Monty2_2001 (Aug 6, 2005)

ah30k said:


> p.s. Get on the phone to your newly elected democrat congressman/woman!!!


LOL, that'll do a lot of good.. We're 'rich' to afford this stuff. All mine are thankfully Republicans anyway.


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## nlowhor (Jul 11, 2003)

I'm in the same boat you are. I've got a S3 ordered from Buy.com but it hasn't shipped yet. With the potential problems with SDV and the impending release of the Comcast/Tivo, I'm not sure what to do. 

1) How long with the S3 work or will Tivo/Comcast offer a solution when SDV hits?
2) Will the Comcast/Tivo be as good as the S3 or will it be a little too....cough...."Comcastic?" Will it suffer on the Moto hardware?
3) How long until the Comcast/Tivo comes out? I'm really sick of this Moto box and want to get back with Tivo. It's kinda hard to believe that it will be anytime in the near future.

Too many questions and not enough answers. Maybe with CES this week we can at least get some answers to #2 and 3 before I activate this S3.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

This thread making anyone else super jittery about their recent decision?


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

I had no idea this was coming. I'll quite frankly believe it when I see it. I'd sure like to see TiVoPony or someone from Tivo comment on this. I'd be shocked if Comcast were allowed to obsolete our boxes that arbitrarily. I just paid TiVo for three years of service in advance. I can't imagine they'd screw me that bad and not do something to make up for it. I'm gonna guess at the very LEAST we'll get replacement boxes from Comcast (or perhaps from Tivo) that will have the Tivo software in them. Either that or a USB add on box such as btwx mentioned, that will fix the problem. Let's not get too panicked yet. This could take years.


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## nlowhor (Jul 11, 2003)

@dig_duggler

Yeah, I'm jittery.  I don't know whether to jump in or not. At least we wouldn't have to worry about this with a Comcast Tivo box, but I really don't wanna wait for it. 

@bareyb

Thanks for the encouragement. I certainly hope you're right. Can anyone out there give us some more info on any of this? It's a big investment!


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

@nlowhr

if you read this thread you'll get even more confused  But I feel a little better anyway..


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

dig_duggler said:


> @nlowhr
> 
> if you read this thread you'll get even more confused  But I feel a little better anyway..


Okay that thread helps a lot. It's much more along the lines of what I thought "might" happen in such an event. I'm not gonna worry about it. I guess we'll see how it all shakes out. So far exactly NONE of the big threats over the years have come to fruition. Remember when DirecTV tried to sell the company to the "Dish" guy and everyone said that would surely be the end of us all? I'm gonna have to believe that we won't be allowed to get that screwed without some type of work around.


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## nlowhor (Jul 11, 2003)

dig_duggler,

I've been through some of this thread but it's not helping me much.  What did you see in there that makes you feel better.

I'm basically getting the idea that most people think that SDV will kill the Series 3 but a few different things could still happen that saves us. Such as... delayed SDV, an alternative to SDV, a solution from tivo if SDV hits, etc. Who knows.

What it really comes down to is the fact that I want a S3 and I want it to work for at least 3 years.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

dig_duggler said:


> This thread making anyone else super jittery about their recent decision?


Not at all. I'm happily moving to the Series 3, Comcast, and even gonna have some Motorola DCT6412's so I'm ready for TiVo's code for those, too. (Counting down to 1/18 install date).

One thing that doesn't hurt is that I can easily dedicate two tuners just to over-the-air digital stuff. That's makes up the vast majority of my television watching. So even in the worst case that every single channel from Comcast went SDV, I'd be just fine with it.


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## nlowhor (Jul 11, 2003)

dswallow,

Are you saying the tivo software is coming to your comcast boxes on the 18th? If so, where did you get that info?


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

dswallow said:


> Not at all. I'm happily moving to the Series 3, Comcast, and even gonna have some Motorola DCT6412's so I'm ready for TiVo's code for those, too. (Counting down to 1/18 install date).
> 
> One thing that doesn't hurt is that I can easily dedicate two tuners just to over-the-air digital stuff. That's makes up the vast majority of my television watching. So even in the worst case that every single channel from Comcast went SDV, I'd be just fine with it.


Actually you make a good case. I've wanted to drop cable for awhile but lack the nerve. This would probably push me over the edge.

@nlowhor
Mostly that scientific atlanta and others are pouring resources into cable cards, among some of the technological points. Since they are the bulk supplier to the cc, this flies in the face of everything going sdv.


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## nlowhor (Jul 11, 2003)

I wish I could drop cable, but gotta have ESPNHD.

I need to look at that other thread more closely. It was my understanding that it doesn't really depend on the cablecards, but rather the hardware in the tivo to communicate back to the provider. Cablecards do seem to be growing, but I'm not sure that impacts this situation.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

nlowhor said:


> Are you saying the tivo software is coming to your comcast boxes on the 18th? If so, where did you get that info?


No I'm not. I'm saying my Comcast install is 1/18. (Goodbye to DirecTV)


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## nlowhor (Jul 11, 2003)

dswallow,

Ah, I read that wrong...sorry. You are MOVING to all this....I thought you already had that list of items.

Well....welcome aboard I guess. Not a very happy comcast customer myself, but some tivo would go a long way toward fixing that.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

You guys almost make me laugh, or cry. Well one of the two. This was discussed ad nausem for months before the S3 came out. 

The S3 cannot handle any channel which is switched. All cable companies are looking at or rolling out SDV. Even before the S3 was released some cable companies were already deploying SDV. 

It is very, very unlikely the S3 in its current iteration will ever be able to support SDV. I tried to point this out in numerous posts.


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## Monty2_2001 (Aug 6, 2005)

So what are we supposed to do with our S3's then we all just bought? Start a huge bonfire?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Monty2_2001 said:


> So what are we supposed to do with our S3's then we all just bought? Start a huge bonfire?


Use them for a couple years and see how things shake out, especially with the FCC.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

dig_duggler said:


> Mostly that scientific atlanta and others are pouring resources into cable cards, among some of the technological points. Since they are the bulk supplier to the cc, this flies in the face of everything going sdv.


The CableCard boxes that Scientific Atlanta and Motorola are getting ready for cable companies are perfectly capable of handling SDV (and VOD and iPPV and all the other things that current UDCPs like the S3 can't do).


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## Monty2_2001 (Aug 6, 2005)

As long as I don't lose my HD chans and 5-10 other ones I have to have...

Otherwise, I'll be totally screwed. Stuck with a useless $630 box and back to directv or hope for FIOS.

This is the kind of BS that better be illegal. Tivo or Cable Co's both need to come up with a solution, soon.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

ah30k said:


> Where are all of those who claimed "its only Time Warner and it will only be fringe channels" now?


Hah. It's inevitable. Unless they kill the analog channels entirely, they just don't have the spectrum to keep adding HD (even "HD Lite".) Personally, I'm all for killing analog cable, but that's big money to the cable companies... replacing cable boxes, loss of the "digital cable" surcharge, etc... it's a real mess.


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## geodon005 (Mar 10, 2004)

I live in an area (Chicago suburbs) where Comcast is completely ADS; they no longer provide analog boxes at all. Should I be concerned about SDV any time soon?


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## PhillyGuy (Mar 12, 2006)

geodon005 said:


> I live in an area (Chicago suburbs) where Comcast is completely ADS; they no longer provide analog boxes at all. Should I be concerned about SDV any time soon?


Comcast has been slow at deploying the SDV. I think it is adopting a wait and see approach to see how the TWC experiment works out. So it probably wouldn't affect you in the next year or so. After that, it's anybody's guess.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

All the cable frequency info I could find has cable using only up to around 1GHz, and even then there's a lot of frequencies skipped in the 900MHz band. Is there some reason the cable companies cannot go higher, say up to 2GHz? I'd think that changing out signal amplifiers, taps and upgrading splitters in-home (as people subscribed to services in those frequencies and had trouble receiving them) would be a much more economically viable solution to limited bandwidth than installing the necessary equipment to support SDV.


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## RFEngineer (Oct 30, 2006)

dswallow said:


> All the cable frequency info I could find has cable using only up to around 1GHz, and even then there's a lot of frequencies skipped in the 900MHz band. Is there some reason the cable companies cannot go higher, say up to 2GHz? I'd think that changing out signal amplifiers, taps and upgrading splitters in-home (as people subscribed to services in those frequencies and had trouble receiving them) would be a much more economically viable solution to limited bandwidth than installing the necessary equipment to support SDV.


At 15-20db loss per 100m for RG-6 @ 1GHz, the next best thing they could do is replace their entire infrastructure with hardline or waveguide (heh).

Compared to implementing SDV, I'm going to guess the cost factor is a single-digit percentage, if not in the sub-integer range.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

RFEngineer said:


> At 15-20db loss per 100m for RG-6 @ 1GHz, the next best thing they could do is replace their entire infrastructure with hardline or waveguide.
> 
> Compared to implementing SDV, I'm going to guess the cost factor is a single-digit percentage, if not in the sub-integer range.


They actually string RG-6 for their infrastructure? I guess I'd have expected something better like RG-11.


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## RFEngineer (Oct 30, 2006)

dswallow said:


> They actually string RG-6 for their infrastructure? I guess I'd have expected something better like RG-11.


I lumped RG11 into the 15-20 range I posted.

RG6 is about 20dB per 100m, RG11 is about 15dB per 100m (@ 1GHz)

Also, the response falls off like a cliff at much above that frequency -- which is why it isn't usefull at higher freqs.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

dswallow said:


> All the cable frequency info I could find has cable using only up to around 1GHz, and even then there's a lot of frequencies skipped in the 900MHz band. Is there some reason the cable companies cannot go higher, say up to 2GHz? I'd think that changing out signal amplifiers, taps and upgrading splitters in-home (as people subscribed to services in those frequencies and had trouble receiving them) would be a much more economically viable solution to limited bandwidth than installing the necessary equipment to support SDV.


Most cable plants are running 750Mhz or 860Mhz. Yes, there's vendors showing off / pitching 1Ghz, 2Ghz, heck, even 3Ghz solutions for cable operators.

In addition to the above noted amps / infrastructure costs ... don't forget that deployed cable boxes only tune to 860Mhz too so ... you'd have to start upgrading / replacing those. Not to mention, most CableCard equipment only tunes up to 860Mhz (not an issue if you put VOD and stuff like that up there ... but any linear channels above 860Mhz would cause CableCard issues too).

Here's an article (talking alot about 1+GHz and / or SDV as different ways to increase bandwidth) where Scientific Atlanta estimates an upgrade from 750MHz to 1Ghz as costing $30 to $35 per home:
http://www.cedmagazine.com/article/CA509144.html?industryid=43678

OTOH, here's an article estimating SDV as costing $5 to $10 per home passed:
http://www.cedmagazine.com/article/CA6355602.html

Comcast has recently said that they are upgrading parts of the San Francisco area to 1Ghz:
http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=92040


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## QZ1 (Mar 24, 2003)

cramer said:


> Hah. It's inevitable. Unless they kill the analog channels entirely, they just don't have the spectrum to keep adding HD (even "HD Lite".) Personally, I'm all for killing analog cable, but that's big money to the cable companies... replacing cable boxes, loss of the "digital cable" surcharge, etc... it's a real mess.


Yes, they would have to provide boxes for every outlet, unless they can 
implement that 'whole house converter' they had been talked about a while ago.

However, this wouldn't cause them to lose any 'digital cable surcharge', people who want 'Digital Classic/Plus' and other Digital services still would have to pay for those.

Actually, then people would have to pay for a box to get to 'Standard'. Comcast already offers this, and now it is $2 more to get an otherwise $4.15 box for 'Standard', which they call 'Digital Starter'.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

QZ1 said:


> Yes, they would have to provide boxes for every outlet, unless they can implement that 'whole house converter' they had been talked about a while ago.


Yes. It's called Digital Cable Ready TVs. You already have to buy a box for every TV as that's about the only way to get digital cable (and premium channels) -- not counting the nightmare of cableCARD(tm)s.



> However, this wouldn't cause them to lose any 'digital cable surcharge', people who want 'Digital Classic/Plus' and other Digital services still would have to pay for those.


Yes, they would... no Public Utility Commision will approve a surcharge for the only option. They do so today because digital is a tier beyond basic and standard (analog) cable. Take away analog cable and it's no longer a tier, it's the base. In the case of TW/Raleigh, basic is 22 analog channels for ~12$. Standard is another 52 analog channels on top of basic for ~50$ (includes basic). Everything else is digital -- and the pricing becomes confusing (esp. for cableCARD(tm) service as that's a la cart.)

Having seen TW's analog signals, they aren't worth 50$. They look like ass... grainy, faded, and washed out. It's significantly better than analog OTA via "rabbit ears", but still nowhere near a good picture. I've been a DTV subscriber for about 7 years, and even though I get zero HD content from them, I'm not going to give up SD picture quality just to get 9 HD channels. (The local HD feeds are noticablly resampled to lower rates.) [And to be perfectly honest, the additional cost of DTV's half dozen HD channels isn't worth it. Plus I'd have to give up the Tivo, and that just ain't gonna happen.]


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## QZ1 (Mar 24, 2003)

cramer said:


> Yes, they would... no Public Utility Commision will approve a surcharge for the only option.


Actually, in my area, they already do for Analog Basic subs.  Basic channels are scattered among the Expanded channels, therefore they can't filter out just Expd. channels outside; instead, they block all of the Analog channels. A 'Basic-only Box' is rented for $1.10, (this fee drops a few cents per year); being Basic, it has to have been approved by the Local Franchising Authority.

Furthermore, it was my impression that the LFA only regulated Basic (Locals service), therefore, they could require a box for Standard, like the optional Digital Starter uses now, and be subject to the same regs. as now, from FCC, I assume.

As for Basic, Comcast could, and says they will, leave it Analog, even after OTA goes Digital-only, so many areas won't need a Box for Basic, but here it makes no difference. They want to make almost all of Expanded into Digital-only using Digital Boxes/DCR TVs.


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## Monty2_2001 (Aug 6, 2005)

I'm still not sure why a USB device couldn't be made that would have an input and output of cable F connectors and could send a signal back to the cable company saying what channel is being watched.

I really hope Tivo is considering this.


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## mportuesi (Nov 11, 2002)

Monty2_2001 said:


> I'm still not sure why a USB device couldn't be made that would have an input and output of cable F connectors and could send a signal back to the cable company saying what channel is being watched.
> 
> I really hope Tivo is considering this.


The software implications are substantial, since the Tivo can no longer freely act as a dual-tuner system. For instance, if a program is scheduled on one signal, and another is scheduled at the same time on the other signal, both can't be recorded at once. The Tivo scheduler would have to take this into account and issue conflicts.

Better than not getting the channels at all, I guess.


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## Monty2_2001 (Aug 6, 2005)

I'd rather have a klugey work-around than a boat anchor, that's for sure.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Monty2_2001 said:


> I'm still not sure why a USB device couldn't be made that would have an input and output of cable F connectors and could send a signal back to the cable company saying what channel is being watched.
> 
> I really hope Tivo is considering this.


Other than it needing participation by the cable company in order to function, there's no reason it couldn't be done, and it could be rather trivial to implement.

All that would be needed is a way to authorize internet-based control of the channel tuning, where the receiver would communicate to the cable head-end and ask for a specific program channel and provide the CableCard ID. The cable head-end would respond with the tuning frequency and anything else needed to control the CableCard so it tunes as necessary. It would also need to provide the keep-alive signal that is required by SDV head-ends so it knows the channel is in use. For those with internet connectivity, there really wouldn't even be a need to interface via USB and the cable coax as it could all be done through an internet connection, which the Series 3 already supports.

This would in no way compromise CableCard security, since that path still is required for decryption. This is just an "end run" around the limitation on the CableCard interface implemented in the receiver.

And there's really no reason it couldn't also be implemented to control On Demand and PPV content, though that does raise additional issues such as program guide info for On Demand content and how to handle the entire purchase portion of the transaction.

But the big deal is simply developing a standard for such control, and gaining acceptance and implementation by the cable company. I'm not sure how easy that process would be. But it certainly could only be viewed by regulatory groups and third party developers as a good faith effort by the cable company to ensure third party devices could have full use of cable broadcasts.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

mportuesi said:


> The software implications are substantial, ...


I don't think you have your head around what SDV means. In the old order, every channel lives at a specific ("fixed") frequency. Tuning a given channel is, thus, a simple matter of setting the tuner to the coresponding frequency. With SDV, it's no longer a fixed frequency map. Channel X is not always at freq. Y. In order to tune in channel X, you first have to find out where it is. (and in fact, it might not be anywhere until you ask for it.)

The implications for Tivo are minimal... the directv units already do this, sorta. DTV can change the freq. (and transponder) at will. The system is unidirectional, so the dtivo has to be listening for any changes in order to keep it's channel map current. This is unnecessary in a cable network as you can ("must" -- you might be the only viewer) ask the headend where to find the channel.

The only headache will be in building and certifying a bidirectional cable product. Which the Series 3 is not.


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## Monty2_2001 (Aug 6, 2005)

cramer, if SDV starts affecting many people (especially ME! GRRR) I guess at first all we can do is complain to the cable co's and the FCC. I mean, I just ordered TWC with HBOHD and MaxHD. If those suddenly stop working, I'll be yelling at both. Sigh. 

My reaction to Tivo will be irritation. Why make this thing if it's so fast to be obsolete, and please please make some adapter to ensure this won't kill the S3.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

cramer said:


> The implications for Tivo are minimal...


only if you find the inability to tune channels a minimal implication.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Monty2_2001 said:


> My reaction to Tivo will be irritation. Why make this thing if it's so fast to be obsolete, and please please make some adapter to ensure this won't kill the S3.


Because the CC 2.0 standard wasn't ready when Tivo started making the box (don't think that it is now, but I'm probably wrong on that one). I'd much rather have an HD box now that may not work fully in a year or two than to not have anything right now...

My hope is that I'm not interested in watching the channels that are SDV'd. SDV only saves bandwidth if it is used on channels that are not widely watched, so I doubt things like ESPNHD or TNTHD would go SDV. If it wasn't for those two channels, I'd be a happy "basic cable+OTA" guy, myself.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

dswallow said:


> All that would be needed is a way to authorize internet-based control of the channel tuning, where the receiver would communicate to the cable head-end and ask for a specific program channel and provide the CableCard ID.


And do you think the companies that make that head-end equipment would modify it just so the S3 Tivo's wouldn't be made obsolete? Or can you picture the cable companies even asking them to? What's possible and reality are often at odds with each other.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> And do you think the companies that make that head-end equipment would modify it just so the S3 Tivo's wouldn't be made obsolete? Or can you picture the cable companies even asking them to? What's possible and reality are often at odds with each other.


Stranger things have happened, especially if part of the goal of making the change is to show the FCC how the cable companies really are trying to be helpful to third parties and not stonewalling to keep them out of the market.

And really, it would be a trivial thing to implement. The head-end already has to be asked for channels and respond to those messages. Beyond having a public-internet-accessible server interfacing to it (which technically may already exist to some extent, though most likely if it does it's not on the public internet in any way yet), there'd probably be no hardware involved.


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## mportuesi (Nov 11, 2002)

cramer said:


> I don't think you have your head around what SDV means. In the old order, every channel lives at a specific ("fixed") frequency. Tuning a given channel is, thus, a simple matter of setting the tuner to the coresponding frequency. With SDV, it's no longer a fixed frequency map. Channel X is not always at freq. Y. In order to tune in channel X, you first have to find out where it is. (and in fact, it might not be anywhere until you ask for it.)


Thanks for cluing me in. I hadn't looked much into SDV, but figured it was some kind of brain-dead bank-switching "A vs. B" setup similar to something cable companies used back in the '80s.

I figure once it becomes an issue for me (if it happens where I live and if important channels become inaccessible), I'll start looking around at ways to deal with it, cable and non-cable.


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## QZ1 (Mar 24, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> My hope is that I'm not interested in watching the channels that are SDV'd. SDV only saves bandwidth if it is used on channels that are not widely watched, so I doubt things like ESPNHD or TNTHD would go SDV. If it wasn't for those two channels, I'd be a happy "basic cable+OTA" guy, myself.


But, Comcast announced that SDV will be rolled out to 25% of Comcast systems by the end of the year, and the next 50 HD channels will be SDV.

Someone claimed that SA is ahead of Motorola with SDV; good since we have Motorola here. Of course, there could be delays, and possibly the imminent HD channels won't be SDV, and whatever HD is launched, might not stay SDV.

Seeing how ADS was six months late in starting here, I bet SDV won't even start for another 1.5 years; hopefully I am right.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

CC2.0 and OCAP make an S3 obsolete like the DVD burner Tivo made the S2 obsolete. I care nothing about VOD and PPV, and as for Switched video, my local cableco isn't even talking about it. I expect that for many users, bi directional will be as useless an S3 feature as it would be for me.

Nonetheless, there is no question that some folks will want it. Ok fine- no big deal.

The CEA proposal modifying the CC2.0 spec to make it "Ocap-less" requires no change to the Head end. The idea is that Cable companies have come up with an OCAP less STB so that they can roll out VOD, and SWitched Video at a lower cost. CE manufacturers looked at what the low end boxes were doing and said fine- we request these proprietary handshakes between the STB and the Cable Plant be handled by a slightly modified Cablecard. The host doesn't have to know anything about the proprietary handshake- the Cablecard provided by the Cable Company does.

Cable Companies are trying to hold bi directional communication hostage to OCAP. The CEA proposal removes that requirement.

Some very fuzzy discussions have gone on here at TCF regarding how an S3 might be retrofited to enable use of the new data output from the card. The idea was that if the necessary transmitter chip was not included on the S3, the output of the Cablecard giving the transmitter frequency and data rate values could be passed via USB to a peripheral that did have such a transmitter. (RF_TX_Frequency_Value and RF_TX_Power_Level.)

Some technical description of this proposal may be found in a powerpoint presentation at http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518539521.

While an upgrade like this is theoretically possible, I would think that someone that really wanted the bidi features would get a slightly upgraded S3 that handled these modified MCards, and sell the earlier version S3 on Ebay. Would Tivo do such a retrofit? Assuming that such a scheme were possible, I would think it would be resources poorly spent. If I were tivo, I'd focus on the tweaks necessary for the S3 design, and rebate the current owners so they can upgrade to a bidi S3.1 at no cost to them after selling off the S3 on ebay.

I'd buy such an "obsolete" S3, no question.

Note that Tivo did not sign the CEA proposal. Tivo benefits mightily from OCAP because it will be a provider of one of the most significant OCAP applications. That doesn't change my personal opinion about OCAP- I think the Cable Companies should not be allowed to get away with forcing their OS down everyone's throat. Riding the back of the tiger and all that.

For Tivo, they are on a course to benefit from both the OCAP and OCAP less platforms. Tivo will benefit because the cableco's have cast their lot with OCAP, and will pay to make sure there are millions and millions of OCAP DVRs in people's homes (many running TIVO software). But their standalone benefits as well- Tivo can build new S3's as CC2.0 hosts conformant to the proposed CEA modified MCards. Further, the CEA proposal opens the way for bypassing CableLabs approval process for TivoGuard. This would theoretically allow a way of TTG'ing digital shows from the cable company without CableLabs approval. (They would have to be certified by an alternate body, but one controlled by CE companies).


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