# Why does Mini require a Service Plan?



## d.susie798

This seems a massive rip off. The main Tivo is the only one receiving the guides and scheduling things. So I don't understand how Tivo gets away with charging so much just to connect a Mini.

Is this a legit thing or simply what it appears like: a massive rip-off?

I've been getting more an more upset with Tivo lately. I pay a huge amount of money to buy the device and to pay for service plan and yet I still have to put up with advertisements within the Tivo itself. I wouldn't mind if there was an "advertisement section" of Tivo where you navigate to and watch the advertisements at your choosing. But popping those things up when I Pause etc infuriates me.

Is the Mini just another way to rip-off the customer? For the first time I'm starting to look at dropping Tivo because of things like this.


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## SullyND

They get away with what the market will bare. If you don't want to pay monthly get lifetime. If TiVo only offered the mini at full price people would be complaining about that. They can't win. Don't want to pay monthly? Get lifetime. Don't want to pay full price? Buy one of TiVo's competitors like Replay or Moxi.


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## CrispyCritter

My view remains that the real list price of the TiVo Mini is $250. TiVo offers an option of $100 down and perpetual monthly fee if that fits your need better.

TiVo always has, and continues to, lose money on their hardware production (though they are getting much better.) The service fees pay for the rest of the hardware, R&D, advertising, company overhead, and on-going expenses. Except for patent litigation money and two marginal quarters, TiVo has never made a profit, and will not make a profit in the near future. Folks are just not willing pay as much money up front as TiVo needs to support the company - thus hiked service fees and advertising to try and break even now, and establish another revenue source for the future, respectively.


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## d.susie798

I was apprised some time ago of the executive compensation of Tivo. It is outrageous. I think most of this money is going to overcompensate executives and not towards R&D or bettering the product. 

I can buy at retail a 3TB drive for around $120. The cost of the scheduling guide? I just find it hard to believe all this costs that much. 

Okay, Tivo is only for people well off enough to afford it. But when you start throwing the ads on the screen when you push pause and charging $150 service plan for a device that uses the service plan of the $600 device it is going too far.


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## SullyND

So then buy a replay or moxi.


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## bradleys

Don't think of it as a service fee - think of it as an additional node with most of the same functionality.

The base Roamio is $200 + $500 service fee for $700
The mini is $100 + $150 service fee for $250

So the mini is 1/3 the price of the cheapest Roamio (1/4 of the plus and 1/5 of the pro). It is a lot cheaper for you to add additional connections to each TV in your home with a mini and TiVo still earns a reasonable revenue for each unit sold.

Now you know the reason, agree or don't agree - that is the price model TiVo chose. Before the mini, those of us who needed / wanted the TiVo experience on multiple TiVo's had to purchase a full TiVo for each TV. 

Trust me, this new model is a bargain!



I hate this executive pay argument btw - TiVo doesn't owe you a damn thing. They are in business to bring share holder value... They do that by providing a product that people will purchase and ultimately generate a profit.

If they don't generate a profit over the long term, they go out of business.


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## lessd

d.susie798 said:


> This seems a massive rip off. The main Tivo is the only one receiving the guides and scheduling things. So I don't understand how Tivo gets away with charging so much just to connect a Mini.
> 
> Is this a legit thing or simply what it appears like: a massive rip-off?
> 
> I've been getting more an more upset with Tivo lately. I pay a huge amount of money to buy the device and to pay for service plan and yet I still have to put up with advertisements within the Tivo itself. I wouldn't mind if there was an "advertisement section" of Tivo where you navigate to and watch the advertisements at your choosing. But popping those things up when I Pause etc infuriates me.
> 
> Is the Mini just another way to rip-off the customer? For the first time I'm starting to look at dropping Tivo because of things like this.


Think of it this way, the Mini cost $250, too much money for what you get don't purchase one, if the Mini saves you $9/month on a cable and A/O expense all the better, *OH!* you do have the option of monthly payments, dropping the Mini cost to less than $100.


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## d.susie798

Guys, my gripe is that it is too expensive to purhase. I've been using Tivo for over 10 years now. And for the first time, I can't justify the expense. I wanted to buy a unit for my mom too so that she can enjoy the cable TV she pays for. But she can't afford it and I can't afford to buy her a setup either.

My solution? Roku for both of us. 

My gripe? I don't see Tivo surviving at these prices. Maybe I'm wrong and enough rich people can keep Tivo afloat. I don't know. But I'm sick of seeing ads on a device I pay a thousand bucks for (hardware plus service). Paying $600 for the flagship hardware is really high and yet I still don't get features like IR Inputs for RF remote control use from base stations. It's just not worth the money IMHO. I love the Mini hardware and what it allows and think this is a great new feature of TiVo. Too bad I can't make use of it.

Maybe some of the blame deserves to be laid on the entertainment industry that DRMs everything and demands exorbitant payoffs from TiVo. I don't know if this is happening or not. But regardless, TiVo executives are overcompensated and it isn't helping TiVo's future. Although I'm not claiming this is the sole reason for the high cost.


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## aristoBrat

d.susie798 said:


> I was apprised some time ago of the executive compensation of Tivo. It is outrageous. I think most of this money is going to overcompensate executives and not towards R&D or bettering the product.


I'm not seeing that.

If you look at their SEC filings for last year:

$238,179,000 = revenue earned

$110,367,000 = money spent on R&D
$001,780,000 = money spent on executive salaries

Looks like TiVo spent 46% of their money on R&D and 1% on executive salaries.

TiVo had 2.3M active subscribers last year. If you divide that by the executive salaries, it works out to 77¢ per subscriber. I'm guessing that if TiVo's execs worked for free, and all of their salary was passed along, you wouldn't even notice an offset the cost of the TiVo Service or hardware.

Out of curiosity (since you have such a strong opinion on the matter), have you looked at their 2012 Annual Report that they filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission?

Under the section "Risk Factors", they list this as the #1 risk towards their business:



> *We have incurred significant net losses and may never achieve sustained profitability.*
> 
> During the fiscal years ended January 31, 2012, 2011, and 2010, our net income (losses) were $102.2 million, $(84.5) million, and $(23.0) million, respectively. As of January 31, 2012, we had an accumulated deficit of $(677.1) million. The size of future net losses will be impacted by a number of factors, including the timing of the development or deployment of solutions under our television service provider arrangements, the growth or decline in the number of TiVo-Owned subscriptions, the price at which we sell TiVo-Owned set-top boxes, the amount of research and development expenses we incur to fund new product development and expand our engineering services capacity, the amount and timing of litigation expenses we incur in connection with protecting our intellectual property and the outcomes of our intellectual property litigations. In particular, we expect to incur significant net losses in our fiscal year ending January 31, 2013. Unless and until we generate significant additional revenues or substantially reduce our expenses, including revenues and expenses resulting from our ongoing legal proceedings, we will likely continue to incur losses in our current and future fiscal years and we may never achieve sustained profitability. *Over time, continued net losses and negative cash flow could drain our existing cash balance.*


To me, that's precisely the reason behind how the TiVo mini was priced.


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## bradleys

And as I said, it has nothing to do with a "service" per say, it goes to total cost of ownership. And when you look at the ratios of cost vs functionality it works. (1/3 the cost of the base Roamio)

With the mini, TiVo gave up on multi TiVo homes for a hub and spoke (whole home) design. 

Also, when you compare to MSO offerings the pricing is very competitive.

Everyone wants to compare TiVo to Apple TV and Roku, and unfortunately it isn't a fair comparison. TiVo is never going to move the number of units it would take to get that kind of scalability.

And frankly TiVo adds more value - at least for me... I have an Apple TV at the house and I never use it anymore. I do use the mini in the bedroom almost everyday.


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## bradleys

And to add...

I am probably going to purchase another $250 mini to replace my 2 tuner Premiere. Now that FIOS is charging $6 for a cable card it doesn't make sense to sit on the value of that lifetime box any longer.

I only mention this, because it shows both the value and usability of the box in that I would be willing to eliminate two tuners from my network.

(Sale of 2TB lifetime Premiere will bring at least $300)


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## d.susie798

aristoBrat said:


> I'm not seeing that.
> 
> If you look at their SEC filings for last year:
> 
> $238,179,000 = revenue earned
> 
> $110,367,000 = money spent on R&D
> $001,780,000 = money spent on executive salaries
> 
> Looks like TiVo spent 46% of their money on R&D and 1% on executive salaries.


TiVo CEO Pay Rises 72 Percent: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/tivo-ceo-pay-rises-72-569286

Shareholders urged to challenge CEO pay: http://www.deadline.com/2013/07/tivo-shareholders-urged-challenge-ceo-compensation/

Something is wrong with the way this company is being run. The CEO pay is just a part of it.


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## bradleys

I just can't stand that populist garbage. Blame successful people because you don't get a bunch of free stuff.

Work hard, bring value in the job you do and you will earn a good living as well. 

CEO's are the Michael Jordan's and Brett Favre's of their fields. You need to pay well to get a top player or the other team will offer him a better deal. 

Don't deliver and you will get cut!

Ben and Jerry's tried to have a CEO cap while the co-founder was still at the helm, when he retired they had to recruit a new leader - the cap was abandoned.

Only so many people have the "skills" for that job, and those people get rewarded for being the top "player" on the field.

You are not a CEO for the same reason you aren't a professional athlete - you don't have the talent.


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## aristoBrat

d.susie798 said:


> TiVo CEO Pay Rises 72 Percent: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/tivo-ceo-pay-rises-72-569286
> 
> Shareholders urged to challenge CEO pay: http://www.deadline.com/2013/07/tivo-shareholders-urged-challenge-ceo-compensation/


Have you actually researched his compensation to see where this "72% increase" actually came from?

Two hints: it wasn't from his salary, and it wasn't from a bonus.



> Guys, my gripe is that it is too expensive to purhase. I've been using Tivo for over 10 years now. And for the first time, I can't justify the expense.


Have you found another DVR that after four years costs you less than what buying a TiVo + Lifetime costs?

Where I live, "leasing" a cable company 6-tuner DVR + three boxes for the bedrooms would cost $60/month. After four years, it would have cost me $2,880.

Buying a TiVo Roamio Pro + 3 Minis (all with Lifetime) cost me $1,750.

The TiVo solution saves me $1,000. Plus, I own all of the TiVo boxes, so if I want to upgrade, I sell, and the next cycle costs significantly less.


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## jrtroo

d.susie798 said:


> Guys, my gripe is that it is too expensive to purhase.


Then, simply, do not buy it.

You could purchase a lifetime premiere to stream to and skip the cablecard. But, that would be more than the $250 for the mini. Thus, its price point, for now, is probably good enough for their sales projections and cost structure. We are still in the early adopter tax period, so time may be on your side instead of cash.


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## SullyND

I wonder if the OP goes on BMW forums complaining that they should cost the same as their Chevy Cruze.


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## TC25D

jrtroo said:


> Then, simply, do not buy it.


Agree. The OP is a troll.


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## aaronwt

d.susie798 said:


> Guys, my gripe is that it is too expensive to purhase. I've been using Tivo for over 10 years now. And for the first time, I can't justify the expense. I wanted to buy a unit for my mom too so that she can enjoy the cable TV she pays for. But she can't afford it and I can't afford to buy her a setup either.
> 
> My solution? Roku for both of us.
> 
> My gripe? I don't see Tivo surviving at these prices. Maybe I'm wrong and enough rich people can keep Tivo afloat. I don't know. But I'm sick of seeing ads on a device I pay a thousand bucks for (hardware plus service). Paying $600 for the flagship hardware is really high and yet I still don't get features like IR Inputs for RF remote control use from base stations. It's just not worth the money IMHO. I love the Mini hardware and what it allows and think this is a great new feature of TiVo. Too bad I can't make use of it.
> 
> Maybe some of the blame deserves to be laid on the entertainment industry that DRMs everything and demands exorbitant payoffs from TiVo. I don't know if this is happening or not. But regardless, TiVo executives are overcompensated and it isn't helping TiVo's future. Although I'm not claiming this is the sole reason for the high cost.


Rich people?? The rich people are the ones paying all that money to the cable companies. Continuously paying them a monthly fee for their DVRs. That cost is much, much higher than what TiVo charges. If I had been using cable company DVRs during the last 6+ years that I've had FiOS it would have easily cost me four figures more. Plus it would have been a crappy experience.


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## Strapped4Cash

+2


TC25D said:


> Agree. The OP is a troll.


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## Davelnlr_

aristoBrat said:


> Under the section "Risk Factors", they list this as the #1 risk towards their business:


Why would a company operate at all, if all they can do each year is operate at a loss, that gets bigger and bigger? Seems rather fruitless. I know if my business was putting me millions in the hole every year, Id file bankruptcy and be done with it.


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## CrispyCritter

Davelnlr_ said:


> Why would a company operate at all, if all they can do each year is operate at a loss, that gets bigger and bigger? Seems rather fruitless. I know if my business was putting me millions in the hole every year, Id file bankruptcy and be done with it.


If their future business was manufacturing stand-alone DVRs, then perhaps. But TiVo has always offered hopes of great profit in the future, once they get big enough for targeted advertising, audience measurement, and software licensing to kick in. (TiVo is a software company, forced to sell hardware to push their software.)

TiVo managed things so that even though they lost money every year, they accumulated no significant debt ever (except for a couple of years around 2001 or so as they switched over to making their own hardware in order to survive). They accomplished this miracle by having a great dog-and-pony show, convincing investors that once TiVo achieved critical mass, large payoffs were possible. TiVo was able to continuously raise money by issuing new stock and having investors pay to keep the company going. Of course, now-a-days the patent litigation has relieved all money worries for several years.

People complain about the executive salaries of TiVo, but those executives worked wonders convincing investors to buy into TiVo's dreams. And with the strong growth of cable company TiVos, both in the US and internationally, TiVo may get its critical mass.


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## unitron

d.susie798 said:


> This seems a massive rip off. The main Tivo is the only one receiving the guides and scheduling things. So I don't understand how Tivo gets away with charging so much just to connect a Mini.
> 
> Is this a legit thing or simply what it appears like: a massive rip-off?
> 
> I've been getting more an more upset with Tivo lately. I pay a huge amount of money to buy the device and to pay for service plan and yet I still have to put up with advertisements within the Tivo itself. I wouldn't mind if there was an "advertisement section" of Tivo where you navigate to and watch the advertisements at your choosing. But popping those things up when I Pause etc infuriates me.
> 
> Is the Mini just another way to rip-off the customer? For the first time I'm starting to look at dropping Tivo because of things like this.


It requires a service plan for the same reason TiVos themselves do--what TiVo really is is a specialized software company, and the monthly or lifetime sub pays for a license to use that software.

I don't have a Mini, so I don't pay for a sub for one, because I'm not using the specialized software they wrote for it to allow it and a TiVo to work together, so I don't need a license to use that software which I'm not using.

If I owned and used a Mini, I'd be using that software and would need to pay them for the license to do so.

TiVo makes its money from the software and patents--the hardware is a loss leader.


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## Dan203

The real answer though is.... because they can. TiVo's only real competition is DVRs offered by MSOs. In all cases where an MSO offers a DVR with an extender they charge an extra monthly fee for the extender. TiVo is just following suite. People like to think that they are competing with AppleTV and Roku, but those are secondary competitors at best. TiVo's only real competition is MSO DVRs and when you compare the two their prices are inline.


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## TC25D

Dan203 said:


> The real answer though is.... because they can.


100% true. And the OP can go back to her MSO solution and whine about what they charge. Or do without.


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## bob61

d.susie798 said:


> This seems a massive rip off. The main Tivo is the only one receiving the guides and scheduling things. So I don't understand how Tivo gets away with charging so much just to connect a Mini.


Same reason you pay a fee for your TiVo unit, ongoing support and maintenance of the underlying software. They should call it a maintenance fee instead of subscription. Just look at the improvements added since the Mini was first released, they need to pay for the talent that continues on the development of the underlying application and features.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## HarperVision

TC25D said:


> Agree. The OP is a troll.


That wasn't very nice. It seems this person has real feelings and sticker shock. Why not just assist in relieving those fears with facts in a nice, productive way?

You gotta admit, it's quite shocking when the fees are first explained to a prospective TiVo client. Every time I tell people about the new roamios they simply love it and are very interested......until I get to the cost part, then about 99.9% of them bail out, regardless of whatever tivo-liscious formulas I throw at them!


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## bradleys

I think the individual was treated fairly well in the first several responses. 

Then she started down the entitlement route and how those greedy fats cats are sitting on their mountain of gold laughing at the huddled masses having to pay a kings ransom for something she thinks should be provided as a right of humanity - or something like that.


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## HarperVision

You gotta admit there's some truth in that too!


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## aristoBrat

HarperVision said:


> You gotta admit, it's quite shocking when the fees are first explained to a prospective TiVo client. Every time I tell people about the new roamios they simply love it and are very interested......until I get to the cost part, then about 99.9% of them bail out, regardless of whatever tivo-liscious formulas I throw at them!


To me, it's all in how it's positioned.

It's been my experience that what's _truly shocking_ to people is when you sit down with them and help them figure out how much they're currently paying in _cable company_ fees to rent the various DVRs and set-top boxes throughout their houses.

Positioned against the fee that they're currently paying, it's been my experience that it's pretty unusual to find a situation where a TiVo solution (with its hardware and service fees) doesn't end up _saving_ the prospective client money.


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## HarperVision

aristoBrat said:


> To me, it's all in how it's positioned.
> 
> It's been my experience that what's truly shocking to people is when you sit down with them and help them figure out how much they're currently paying in cable company fees to rent the various DVRs and set-top boxes throughout their houses.
> 
> Positioned against the fee that they're currently paying, it's been my experience that it's pretty unusual to find a situation where a TiVo solution (with its hardware and service fees) doesn't end up saving the prospective client money.


I agree with everything you're saying and have passed that on numerous times. It seems most people just can't see past the tip of their noses though! It's the wide eyed "I gotta shell out HOW MUCH right now to just record Dance Moms on Sunday night"?!?!?! That gets 'em every time!


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## Dan203

Yeah the upfront costs can be shocking. Even with monthly service fees, rather then lifetime, having to lay out several hundred bucks right now is hard for a lot of people. And if you do go lifetime the upfront cost is enormous. I paid nearly $1K for my Roamio Pro with lifetime. There aren't a lot of people who can afford that kind of outlay just for a DVR, even if it does save them money over the long term.


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## TC25D

HarperVision said:


> That wasn't very nice. It seems this person has real feelings and sticker shock. Why not just assist in relieving those fears with facts in a nice, productive way?


Refer to what bradleys said.


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## synch22

The technology is pretty sweet over moca. Have 2 w / lifetime may get a 3rd for the kitchen.


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## CloudAtlas

Dan203 said:


> Yeah the upfront costs can be shocking. Even with monthly service fees, rather then lifetime, having to lay out several hundred bucks right now is hard for a lot of people. And if you do go lifetime the upfront cost is enormous. I paid nearly $1K for my Roamio Pro with lifetime. There aren't a lot of people who can afford that kind of outlay just for a DVR, even if it does save them money over the long term.


If I decide to buy a Mercedes SLS GT Coupe for $200K+ over a Mercedes CLA-Class Coupe for $29,900 then I shouldn't be shocked at the cost. You could of bought the Roamio base model for 1/3rd the cost at $199!

To put this in perspective my iPhone 5S cost me the same $199 as the Roamio but the service contract for 2 years (not lifetime) cost me $2,160 for a total cost of $2,359.00.  Each additional year is another $1,080.

Yet I don't see anyone, including pre-teens, getting a bit worked up over it.

But in the TiVo group people are ready to revolt over the cost of a TiVo. And then there's the irony that TiVo has never been profitable and yet gets painted as greedy for it's prices where Apple, with $150 billion in profits, still sells a two 1/2 year old iPad 2 for $399 and is commended for it high margins.

And as for holding it's value while my iPhone 4S was worth $99 after two years a Premiere with lifetime after four years is *still* worth ~$400.

TiVo total cost of $24.75/yr !!! ($99 / 4 years)


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## Dan203

CloudAtlas said:


> And as for holding it's value while my iPhone 4S was worth $99 after two years a Premiere with lifetime after four years is *still* worth ~$400.


You got ripped off on the iPhone. I just traded mine in to Amazon for $185. Considering that is almost what I paid for it it seems like a pretty good deal. I know with the contract I actually paid more, but the service fee is the same no matter if you use an iPhone 5s or an iPhone 3G so the fact that you can break even and get a "free" upgrade every 2 years is why most people don't balk much at the cost of cell phones. If they lowered the service fee after the contract expired I think people would look at it different.

TiVos with lifetime also tend to hold a good bit of their value, but not as much as they use to. It use to be that you could sell a used TiVo with lifetime for the cost of lifetime + $50-$100 for the hardware. These days people are selling Premiere units with iifetime for ~$400 making the hardware basically useless. A Premiere without lifetime is worth maybe $40. (You can buy a new 4 tuner on clearance for $60) that doesn't give me high hopes about the resale value of the $600 Roamio I just bought. If in 3 years it's only worth the price of lifetime then I will have paid about $17/mo to own it. Not something I couldn't afford, but not quite the value proposition it use to be.


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## tatergator1

This whole debate is the result of the ubiquity of credit and the "monthly payment" mentality held by so many people. I think my biggest pet peeve on this topic is cell phones. How many people would own an iPhone or other smart phone if the cellular companies did not subsidize the cost. 

Option #1: $99 for the new iPhone 5c with 2-yr agreement....sign me up.
Option #2: $549 for the new iPhone 5c without a contract.....I can't afford that!

Yet, people fail to realize they'll simply be paying a monthly cellular service bill that is about $20 more than it would have to be otherwise. If you don't upgrade that phone right after the 2 years is up, your just throwing that $20 away on your monthly cellular bill. 

I would rather have the option of a full price phone with no contract and reduced monthly rates and keep that smart phone for 3 years and save money in the long run. 

At least Tivo affords me that opportunity with Lifetime.


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## CrispyCritter

Dan203 said:


> A Premiere without lifetime is worth maybe $40. (You can buy a new 4 tuner on clearance for $60) that doesn't give me high hopes about the resale value of the $600 Roamio I just bought. If in 3 years it's only worth the price of lifetime then I will have paid about $17/mo to own it. Not something I couldn't afford, but not quite the value proposition it use to be.


I'm much more optimistic about the Roamio retaining value than I was the Premiere. It has enough horsepower to be adaptable in the future. I expect it will be usable until whatever replaces cablecards comes into the marketplace, which will be longer than 3 years.


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## CloudAtlas

Dan203 said:


> [..] get a "free" upgrade every 2 years is why most people don't balk much at the cost of cell phones.


It's because they don't have to pay $2,359 upfront to get a cellphone!

TiVo is NOT expensive when compared to other things people buy with contracts. I used cellphones as the most obvious example but leasing cars is another. Ever wonder how an 18 year old working P/T drives a new $40,000 BMW?

What TiVo should do is use some of that $1 billion cash to allow payment of Roamio in monthly installments just like cellphones. A Roamio with lifetime would cost $29.99/mo 2-year contract. Or a Roamio Pro + monthly would cost $39.99/mo 2-year contract. $14.95/mo after that.

But I guess TiVo feels that's not the problem. I will say TiVo going after smaller cable companies seems to be paying off. The Virgin Media deal alone has done wonders.

P.S. My phone ear speaker was broken and really worth $0.


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## jrtroo

Tivo has tried that before with the Premiere at $19.99 for two years. Its demise probably demonstrates its appeal.


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## CloudAtlas

jrtroo said:


> Tivo has tried that before with the Premiere at $19.99 for two years. Its demise probably demonstrates its appeal.


So the Premiere was FREE and you just needed to pay $19.99/mo? I just don't understand it. Is it because with no advertising people don't even know that TiVo is an option?

Time Warner Cable charges *~$25/mo* with tax for a *30hr 2-tuner DVR rental* and they have *millions* of customers.

For *$33/mo you get a 70hr 2-tuner Whole Home DVR*. * To share recorded programs between rooms, you need to order* additional Whole House playback boxes - either HD-DVR ($34.24/mo) or HD ($14.25/mo).*

http://www.timewarnercable.com/en/residential-home/tv/equipment.html


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## Dan203

tatergator1 said:


> This whole debate is the result of the ubiquity of credit and the "monthly payment" mentality held by so many people. I think my biggest pet peeve on this topic is cell phones. How many people would own an iPhone or other smart phone if the cellular companies did not subsidize the cost.
> 
> Option #1: $99 for the new iPhone 5c with 2-yr agreement....sign me up.
> Option #2: $549 for the new iPhone 5c without a contract.....I can't afford that!
> 
> Yet, people fail to realize they'll simply be paying a monthly cellular service bill that is about $20 more than it would have to be otherwise. If you don't upgrade that phone right after the 2 years is up, your just throwing that $20 away on your monthly cellular bill.
> 
> I would rather have the option of a full price phone with no contract and reduced monthly rates and keep that smart phone for 3 years and save money in the long run.
> 
> At least Tivo affords me that opportunity with Lifetime.


Some providers charge the same amount for "service" whether they are subsidizing a phone or not, so you might as well upgrade. Especially if you can sell the old phone for roughly the same price as the upgrade. If you're going to pay the same rate then why not?

Like I said if providers actually lowered the service fee to reflect a non-subsidized phone then people might think differently. But really it's the providers who are screwing people over by charging the same whether they're subsidizing a phone or not.

I think the main reason TiVo's stab at the free + $20/mo plan failed was timing. At the time TiVos weren't very expensive ($250) and service was only $12.95/mo. So paying $20/mo for 2 years wasn't that great a deal. I think if they did something like that now with a Roamio Plus they'd have more takers. And if they did a whole home package with a Roamio Plus and 2 Mini's for $35/mo people would do that too.


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## bayern_fan

Just picked up a Mini yesterday and signed up for Lifetime service through the website. Is it unusual to pay sales tax on the service though? My understanding was that only hardware from TiVo was subject to sales tax.


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## jmpage2

bayern_fan said:


> Just picked up a Mini yesterday and signed up for Lifetime service through the website. Is it unusual to pay sales tax on the service though? My understanding was that only hardware from TiVo was subject to sales tax.


It depends on which state you live in. In some states, due to TiVo having a business presence there, etc, they need to charge sales tax on the service fee.


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## jmpage2

Dan203 said:


> Some providers charge the same amount for "service" whether they are subsidizing a phone or not, so you might as well upgrade. Especially if you can sell the old phone for roughly the same price as the upgrade. If you're going to pay the same rate then why not?
> 
> Like I said if providers actually lowered the service fee to reflect a non-subsidized phone then people might think differently. But really it's the providers who are screwing people over by charging the same whether they're subsidizing a phone or not.


Well, it's exactly what they do in Europe. People only upgrade typically every 3-4 years because they are paying the actual cost of their handset device (an iPhone is typically about $800 USD)... and the service is quite a bit less expensive (unlimited minutes and text + a large amount of data for maybe $45-$65 per month in most countries).

I would like to see the US market go to that model but it won't happen. The person earlier who commented that US consumers can't see past the tip of their nose hit it on the head. 90% of consumers are wrapped around how much the "monthly" cost is of everything in their life, from a car payment, to rent, to cable, telephone, etc. They simply can't comprehend or appreciate that for some things they can pay cash up front and save quite a bit of money over time.... it's the "paycheck to paycheck" mentality.

I've seen people loading up on essentials like paper towels, toilet paper, garbage bags, etc, and paying $100 more at the grocery store than if they bought all that stuff at Costco or Sam's Club.... and they probably wonder where their money goes every month.

The OP strikes me as a classic whiner. I can't afford it, so it's not fair. Waah. I drove crappy cars for years and years so that I could eventually pay cash for a really nice car. Life's tough all over, make better choices.


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## Dan203

jmpage2 said:


> it's the "paycheck to paycheck" mentality.


I play on a pool league with a bunch of guys/gals who are constantly complaining about how broke they are and how they can barely afford the $7/week for league. I don't relate to that mentality at all! I haven't been broke since I was a teenager. I've always lived far enough below my means that I had a good chunk of cash in the bank to draw from if something came up or I wanted to splurge on something nice. I couldn't even imagine living so close to the line that one unexpected expense could throw me into hardship. But most people live that way their entire lives and think nothing of it.


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## jmpage2

Dan203 said:


> I play on a pool league with a bunch of guys/gals who are constantly complaining about how broke they are and how they can barely afford the $7/week for league. I don't relate to that mentality at all! I haven't been broke since I was a teenager. I've always lived far enough below my means that I had a good chunk of cash in the bank to draw from if something came up or I wanted to splurge on something nice. I couldn't even imagine living so close to the line that one unexpected expense could throw me into hardship. But most people live that way their entire lives and think nothing of it.


You've got that right, and that describes most of my family too. They think I'm "rich" because I can splurge on nice stuff from time to time. They apparently don't recall that while I earn a decent salary, instead of spending every nickel of it I have always set aside a minimum of 10% of my wages for unforeseen emergencies. It means having a cushion and not worried that one missed paycheck will mean having my house foreclosed on! By comparison as soon as they come into a little money they blow it. If they get a bump in their hourly wage they immediately go out and "fill in" that extra income by trading in their vehicle for a better one, etc. Yikes.


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## tatergator1

Dan203 said:


> Some providers charge the same amount for "service" whether they are subsidizing a phone or not, so you might as well upgrade. Especially if you can sell the old phone for roughly the same price as the upgrade. If you're going to pay the same rate then why not?
> 
> Like I said if providers actually lowered the service fee to reflect a non-subsidized phone then people might think differently. But really it's the providers who are screwing people over by charging the same whether they're subsidizing a phone or not.


I agree that under the current systems of most cellular providers, it makes the most sense to upgrade right at the end of the 2 years to get the most value out of the inflated monthly service rate. I can dream of of discounted monthly rates for unsubsidized phone purchases, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen any time soon.

C'est la vie!


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## beobuff

jmpage2 said:


> The person earlier who commented that US consumers can't see past the tip of their nose hit it on the head. 90% of consumers are wrapped around how much the "monthly" cost is of everything in their life, from a car payment, to rent, to cable, telephone, etc. They simply can't comprehend or appreciate that for some things they can pay cash up front and save quite a bit of money over time.... it's the "paycheck to paycheck" mentality.


Bingo. What's really sad is that those with that mentality are de facto locking themselves into that "paycheck to paycheck" lifestyle, from which escape is difficult if not impossible. It is the modern day equivalent of the "penny wise and pound foolish" mindset. Maybe our public school systems should consider obligatory courses in personal finance. The great majority of Americans haven't a clue how to manage their money.


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## slowbiscuit

jmpage2 said:


> Well, it's exactly what they do in Europe. People only upgrade typically every 3-4 years because they are paying the actual cost of their handset device (an iPhone is typically about $800 USD)... and the service is quite a bit less expensive (unlimited minutes and text + a large amount of data for maybe $45-$65 per month in most countries).
> 
> I would like to see the US market go to that model but it won't happen.


T-Mobile is changing that game, they are now no-contract and you can get 4 lines with unlimited talk/text + 500MB data for $100/mo. Phones are extra and can be paid for monthly or upfront. We just switched off of Sprint to get out of the forced 2-year contract & upgrade cycle because smartphones are good enough now (for us) to last longer than that.


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## aaronwt

slowbiscuit said:


> T-Mobile is changing that game, they are now no-contract and you can get 4 lines with unlimited talk/text + 500MB data for $100/mo. Phones are extra and can be paid for monthly or upfront. We just switched off of Sprint to get out of the forced 2-year contract & upgrade cycle because smartphones are good enough now (for us) to last longer than that.


How do you share only 500MB between four phones? How do you only use 500MB on one phone?


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## Dan203

I have a 2GB plan on my phone. I typically only use 100-300MB a month. The only reason I keep the 2GB plan is because the next step down is 200MB, which is $10 cheaper, but if you go over they charge you $15. And since I'm so close to 200MB most months it seems like too big of a gamble.

I work from home and when I am out I'm rarely unable to connect to wifi so I really don't use much data.


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## aaronwt

My billing cycle is only a few days old and i'm already over 1GB. I use Pandora everyday, plus Google and Verizon both back up my pictures and other content each night.


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## Dan203

I don't use Pandora, but even if I did I'm almost never away from wifi so I still doubt I'd get anywhere near my 2GB limit.


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## jmpage2

aaronwt said:


> My billing cycle is only a few days old and i'm already over 1GB. I use Pandora everyday, plus Google and Verizon both back up my pictures and other content each night.


It is my observation that your usage patterns, whether it is having a 50TB UNRAID setup, having at one time 1/2 a dozen TiVo units, carting TiVos to your girlfriend's house, using gobs of 4G/LTE data, or your continual defense of Microsoft's mobile business strategy are....

atypical.


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## slowbiscuit

aaronwt said:


> How do you share only 500MB between four phones? How do you only use 500MB on one phone?


It's 500MB per line, and with Wifi fairly widespread the only way our family goes over that on a line is with video streaming. Normal usage won't do it. The only issue with T-Mo is their data coverage, specifically 4G/LTE.


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## bradleys

It is rare that I can find a WiFi signal. My company does not provide public WiFi so nothing during that bulk of my day. And trying to play around with stream I was surprised how many restaurants no longer provide complimentary WiFi.

It suprises me being in a very metropolitan area - but I seem to live in a public WiFi desert!


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## bfollowell

SullyND said:


> So then buy a replay or moxi.


The problem is, you can't, unless you find someone that still has stock somewhere. Moxi is no longer selling new units. Their technology has been folded into Arris. ReplayTV has also stopped selling new units. They are now part of the DirecTV family.

Besides, I don't think anyone can compare to the service you get from Tivo.

- Byron


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## Dan203

bfollowell said:


> The problem is, you can't, unless you find someone that still has stock somewhere. Moxi is no longer selling new units. Their technology has been folded into Arris. ReplayTV has also stopped selling new units. They are now part of the DirecTV family.
> 
> Besides, I don't think anyone can compare to the service you get from Tivo.
> 
> - Byron


I think that was the point. TiVo has no retail competition left. Their only real competition are cable company DVRs and in most cases TiVo is a better deal long term. TiVo only considers Roku and AppleTV secondary competition.


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## bayern_fan

So...about the TiVo Mini and service plans?


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## lessd

bayern_fan said:


> So...about the TiVo Mini and service plans?


Think of the service plan as a way to reduce TiVos cost of selling a Mini, assume that TiVo wanted to sell a Mini at retail for $250, if service was included, the retail outlet would take about 30% off list price to purchase from TiVo, so TiVo would net about $175 from say Best Buy, under the service plan option TiVo sells the Mini for about $70 to a retail outlet, then gets the full $150 for the so called lifetime service plan, giving TiVo a net gross sale for the Mini of about $220 or about $45 more for each Mini.

The issue is moot if you don't think the Mini is worth $250 to you.


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## cmshep222

tatergator1 said:


> This whole debate is the result of the ubiquity of credit and the "monthly payment" mentality held by so many people. I think my biggest pet peeve on this topic is cell phones. How many people would own an iPhone or other smart phone if the cellular companies did not subsidize the cost.
> 
> Option #1: $99 for the new iPhone 5c with 2-yr agreement....sign me up.
> Option #2: $549 for the new iPhone 5c without a contract.....I can't afford that!
> 
> Yet, people fail to realize they'll simply be paying a monthly cellular service bill that is about $20 more than it would have to be otherwise. If you don't upgrade that phone right after the 2 years is up, your just throwing that $20 away on your monthly cellular bill.
> 
> I would rather have the option of a full price phone with no contract and reduced monthly rates and keep that smart phone for 3 years and save money in the long run.
> 
> At least Tivo affords me that opportunity with Lifetime.


Regarding Cell phones. I have what you describe above for my iPhone 5 through StraightTalk (prepaid service at Walmart). StraightTalk resells Verizon service, so I get the same great coverage Verizon offers in my area. My iPhone 5 cost $550 from StraightTalk, but I have no contract and only pay $45 per month for unlimited talk/data/text. Breakeven is about one year, compared to buying the $199 iPhone at Verizon and paying $75 a month for service. And in this model, it's to my benefit to hang on to my iPhone as long as it works, rather than feeling obliged to upgrade ever two years. The longer my phone works, the better.


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## mr_smits

cmshep222 said:


> Regarding Cell phones. I have what you describe above for my iPhone 5 through StraightTalk (prepaid service at Walmart). StraightTalk resells Verizon service


I thought Straight Talk is AT&T and T-Mobile only?


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## slowbiscuit

No, AT&T and Verizon. There are other T-Mobile MVNOs though.


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