# BT VISION vs TIVO



## algordon (Apr 1, 2004)

Is BT Vision going to be another nail in the coffin for Tivo? Anyone know how it's going to compare to Tivo's fumctionality?


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

I can't see how it's going to affect the service I get.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Not a nail in the coffin, but yet another missed opportunity 

The list of features almost reads like a US TiVo - and the VOD via broadband stuff is similar to the TiVoCast service introduced in the US recently and is clearly an area they are trying to get into.

Still, it was obviously better economics to translate everything into Spanish for 1.5m Cablevision customers in Mexico City than to target over 3m BT broadband customers in the UK... 

And please don't anybody post that the BT Vision service is "free" whereas you have to pay for TiVo as there will, apparently, be an upfront fee for the box of 'around' £100, plus users will have to subscribe to BT's broadband service at a minumum of £17.99 per month.

I guess the only good news about BT Vision is that BT have been having a lot of problems with the (Microsoft) software...


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

I think TiVo has more iron in its coffin now than wood - but still it survives 

As of next week, I'll have 3 DVR devices under my telly - A Freeview "PVR", Sky+ and TiVo - and I already know which one will be in use the most


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## frogster (Jan 4, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> And please don't anybody post that the BT Vision service is "free" whereas you have to pay for TiVo as there will, apparently, be an upfront fee for the box of 'around' £100, plus users will have to subscribe to BT's broadband service at a minumum of £17.99 per month.


To be fair: my Tivo cost me £100 (bargain) plus another £200 for lifetime service. And with or without a BT recorder or a Tivo, many people would still have to pay £15 or £20 to some ISP or another for ADSL because of where they live. Not every can get or indeed even wants to get these "free" ADSL packages.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

frogster said:


> Not every can get or indeed even wants to get these "free" ADSL packages.


Since most of these so called "free" ADSL packages actually require you to take a combined phone line rental and calls package costing at least £21 per month it is a mistake to think of them as free.

On the basis that you can get other cheap broadband connections with near unlimited use (except for movie downloader holics) for £15 per month, an unlimited 01/02 and EU calls package for £4.33 per month over 18 months (www.euphony.co.uk) and phone line rental for £11 per month then these so called "free broadband packages really in fact cut your broadband cost to about £21 per month instead of £30. And bearing in mind that availability of both TalkTalk and Sky Broadband's services are extremely restricted to larger exchanges and that you have to sign 18 and 12 month contracts respectively compared to 1 month elsewhere they are not the good deal the initiall seen.

If you already subscribed to Sky but only used broadband very modestly then I will agree that this is actually a pretty good deal but no use to you if you don't subscribe to Sky or live on an Easynet enabled exchange or if you need a high quality and fast broadband service.


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## mista_c (Aug 2, 2003)

blindlemon said:


> And please don't anybody post that the BT Vision service is "free" whereas you have to pay for TiVo as there will, apparently, be an upfront fee for the box of 'around' £100, plus users will have to subscribe to BT's broadband service at a minumum of £17.99 per month.


I was always under the impression that BT Vision would at first be offered to customers of BT Broadband, then later to customers of other ADSL isp's. No idea whether the latter will have to pay monthly charges for the BT Vision service. I suspect not, as I think BT are planning on making their money mainly from PPV services.

btw, am not trying to promote BT vision over the tivo. I hope to be able to use BT Vision to record programmes I've missed during the past seven days, but the tivo will remain my primary device for recording and watching stuff.


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## Tivo_noob (Jan 28, 2006)

If the BT Vision STB is anything like the BT Homehub i don't think Tivo should be too worried


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Tivo_noob said:


> If the BT Vision STB is anything like the BT Homehub i don't think Tivo should be too worried


I think when they get BT Vision working properly with access to the last 7 days Freeview programs without having to schedule them it will be a pretty interesting product. One hopes that it would also have something akin to a Season Pass facility and be able to keep normal tv programs that you record to the hard drive for longer than that.

Of course I have a nasty feeling that digital rights management will stop you keeping anything you pay to download or watch for more than a few days though.

I'm unclear whether you have to take BT Broadband or not to have a BT Vision box? On the one hand this would help BT Broadband sales but on the other could hugely hinder uptake of the box compared to letting it work with any broadband connection with an adequate broadband allowance to support the downloading. I would be interested in BT Vision if it could use any broadband connection but not if it has to use their broadband and be on a 12 month or longer contract.


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## mista_c (Aug 2, 2003)

I could be way off the mark here, but I've always suspected that BT's push towards Max DSL (with many isp's upgrading users at no extra cost to customer) was so that they would then have a large potential customer base who would have a fast enough connection which could handle their BT Vision product.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

mista_c said:


> ... I've always suspected that BT's push towards Max DSL (with many isp's upgrading users at no extra cost to customer) was so that they would then have a large potential customer base who would have a fast enough connection which could handle their BT Vision product.


I've always felt that it was to tie you into another contract period, to stop you transferring to another ISP.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

iankb said:


> I've always felt that it was to tie you into another contract period, to stop you transferring to another ISP.


Do you mean the BT Vision Product or ADSL Max? Upgrading to Max service with your ISP does not normally lock you in to any extension in the original contract term.

I agree that perhaps BT Vision will only be for BT Broadband customers and only be free as long as you stay subscribed to them but then there are competitor IPTV products such as the one using a Netgem IPlayer launched by www.names.co.uk


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## andyjenkins (Jul 29, 2001)

Guys,
BT Vision will _initially_ be only for BT Broadband customers, but then opened to those with any ISP. However, certain features will only be available, or cheaper, for BT Broadband customers (which I think Ofcom might not like if that plan ever sees the light of day).

BT Vision's killer app - will be 7 day historical VOD. Providing the Beeb agree (went into review about a week ago - not seen if they've agreed yet).


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

andyjenkins said:


> Guys,
> BT Vision will _initially_ be only for BT Broadband customers, but then opened to those with any ISP. However, certain features will only be available, or cheaper, for BT Broadband customers (which I think Ofcom might not like if that plan ever sees the light of day).
> 
> BT Vision's killer app - will be 7 day historical VOD. Providing the Beeb agree (went into review about a week ago - not seen if they've agreed yet).


It would be pretty outrageous if customers on exchanges served by Be Unlimited were forced to sign up for BT Broadband to get all the features when the Be's ADSL2+ connection is more suitable for the task at hand of streaming broadband Tv. Whilst BT might hope it is a way to blackmail people to join BT Broadband on the other hand this is actually also a way to lose a huge raft of potential customers for BT Vision who might otherwise want the product. Hopefully good sense will in the end prevail over the blinkered and selfish thinking of BT's marketing men.

As to Ofcom they have historically proven to be entirely bloody useless when it comes to preventing entrenched monopolises abusing their position. Look at their failure to force Sky to let CAMs for their service be available for other non Sky approved PVRs and their total failure to prevent the mushrooming and highly anti price competitive 084/7 call centre scam industry.


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## Pugwash (May 23, 2003)

If you get the free upgrade to 8Mb on BT, you do indeed have to agree to another 12 months minimum contract. I've just done it when I moved house.


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

Pugwash said:


> free upgrade to 8Mb on BT


Are they doing that now? Or is it still just the ADSL Max service?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Pugwash said:


> If you get the free upgrade to 8Mb on BT, you do indeed have to agree to another 12 months minimum contract. I've just done it when I moved house.


Why did you do that. I would have migrated for nothing to another ISP who would have transferred me to 8MB for nothing and only asked me to have a 1 month contract with them. Amongst the best rated ISPs by customers at www.dslzoneuk.net/isp_ratings.php who do not make you sign more than a 1 month contract on migration are

www.newnet.co.uk
www.idnet.co.uk
www.zen.co.uk
www.ukfsn.org
www.names.co.uk

Asking customers to sign a 12 month contract to upgrade to Max service is madness but then BT know that their customers always have this touching in faith in them no matter how badly treat them or how overpriced their service may be.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ndunlavey said:


> Are they doing that now? Or is it still just the ADSL Max service?


Its an upgrade From 2MB fixed sync speed to ADSL Max where the sync speed depends on how far you are from the exchange and the actual data speed on how good or lousy an ISP you select.


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

That's what I thought - just ADSL Max, not 8M ADSL. And, to be pedantic, it's from BT Broadband, not BT.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ndunlavey said:


> That's what I thought - just ADSL Max, not 8M ADSL. And, to be pedantic, it's from BT Broadband, not BT.


I'm three quarters of a mile from the exchange here and Sync with it on Max between 7310 and 8128 depending one whether the lines outside are wet or dry. The actual data rate with my small ISP is between 6MB and just short of 7MB most of the time depending on Sync speed and network traffic. Compare that with BT where you will get about 3MB data rate at this loaction at best at most times.

BT guarantee you a mediocre experience.


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> BT's customers know that their customers always have this touching in faith in them


Assuming you meant the faith in BT rather than BT's customers, I think it's more that many don't realise that they can get ADSL from anyone. Many folks seem to assume that because they have their phone from BT, and that's there's something branded as BT that sells broadband, they must have to go to BT Broadband for their ADSL.

I'd like to see Ofcom or Advertising Standards act to restrict the use of BT branding by the BT subsidiaries.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ndunlavey said:


> Assuming you meant the faith in BT rather than BT's customers, I think it's more that many don't realise that they can get ADSL from anyone. Many folks seem to assume that because they have their phone from BT, and that's there's something branded as BT that sells broadband, they must have to go to BT Broadband for their ADSL.
> 
> I'd like to see Ofcom or Advertising Standards act to restrict the use of BT branding by the BT subsidiaries.


I don't really agree. My brother in law uses BT purely because he seems to believe that as they are large and national they are reliable. He is well aware that alternatives exist as he buys almost every £3 per month computer magazine known to mankind.

Most people who go for BT fear that a small ISP would soon get taken over and they would be cut off for several weeks. And not without reason it would seem for as long as usless Ofcom allows ISPs to either not provice MAC codes at all or to hold people to ransom for them with exorbitant charges for them. Hopefully this will soon change and MAC codes will become compulsory.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Pete77 said:


> Upgrading to Max service with your ISP does not normally lock you in to any extension in the original contract term.


When BTOpenworld originally took orders for the ADSLMax upgrade, they tied you into another three months. Soon after, they changed that to 12 months.

At the moment, they are trying to save me money by offering me a 'downgrade' from the Option 4 package (which no longer exists) to Option 3. I've yet to check it out, but I believe that will tie me into another 12 months. Otherwise, they could have automatically cut the monthly charge. Since I'm currently considering a switch to a Be LLU connection, I've been putting off the proposed cost-saving until I decide which way to go.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

iankb said:


> Since I'm currently considering a switch to a Be LLU connection, I've been putting off the proposed cost-saving until I decide which way to go.


Be Unlimited are the highest rated ADSL ISP both in terms of customer opinion ratings and connection speed at www.dslzoneuk.net/isp_ratings.php

If you are a heavy downloader and in a Be area then it seems to be a no brainer to go for Be. Next best would be www.newnet.co.uk, www.zen.co.uk, www.idnet.co.uk and www.ukfsn.org for an ADSL Max connection with good customer service and fastest download speeds.

You can be almost guaranteed mediocre download speeds and mediocre customer service with BT just by the very nature of their market positioning, number of customers and excessive reliance on brand name over quality of service. Trying to lock their service into 12 more months contract on the least is excuse is a sign of their increasing desperation. The useless Ofcom should make this kind of sharp practice illegal as its not healthy for competition for these kind of sneaky further lock ins to be allowed.


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## Dazbear (Aug 24, 2001)

I agree that BT Vision shows yet another missed opp for TiVo. Having just looked at the TiVo service in the US (green now!) this is basically the kind of service that HomeChoice and BT Vision are now offering.

TiVo were just too early in the PVR market in the UK.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Dazbear said:


> Having just looked at the TiVo service in the US (green now!) this is basically the kind of service that HomeChoice and BT Vision are now offering.


To get an idea of what this could have been, watch the demo and weep... 

...and if that isn't bad enough, here's something else you can't have


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> To get an idea of what this could have been, watch the demo and weep...


This Tivo YouTube video on the supposed origins of Tivo is a lot more amusing though and has far higher production values:-

See www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsXUPmWAfhY

What I do find reasuring though is how basically the whole Tivo menu interface design is still exactly the same as the box we have just with more features. Even their search by name facility is still that A to Z grid box. You would have thought by now they would be using proper Keyboards with trackballs in them. I suspect brand loyalty is so strong to the original product that they are reluctant to make any major change of that kind.

So sure we can't access IPTV or share family photos or videos but I already have more than enough programs than I can find time to watch coming out of my ears. So do I care? Well not for now but I can see I will do in 3 or 4 years time when some really new major programs are only being made available to watch via the web...........................................

Unfortunately everything has its day and however much I would like my Tivo S1 to last forever tide and time unfortunately waits for no man or machine........................


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## Major dude (Oct 28, 2002)

Thanks Pete 77 for finding this its blown me away its so brilliant.

Do take a look its that good.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Major dude said:


> Thanks Pete 77 for finding this its blown me away its so brilliant.


Glad you also enjoyed it. May be this needs its own separate thread to draw attention to it.


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