# What's the future plan for TiVo?



## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

Hi Everyone, 
I've had TiVos since day 1, series 1. My wife and I have loved them. I'm currently rocking a Bolt and a couple of Minis. But I've been so disappointed with what seems like a lack of growth/innovation. It seems like it's been 2 years now since the latest interface update which seemed like a step backwards--not being able to go 'back' through the menu and having to hit TiVo home button and start from the top and other little silly things. I'd love to stay with TiVo and honestly that's the only reason I'd keep Comcast at this point. I'm almost ready to jump to YouTube TV and ditch Comcast and TiVo. 

This isn't a complain about TiVo vent. I'm really hoping someone has an idea of what their plans are for the future. I'd love to stay with TiVo until I die. But with all the streaming services and lack of innovation, I'm looking for some reassurance that they have something up their sleeve.

Thanks for any insight!
Brent


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

There is no future plan in the DVR realm, this is most likely the end of the line.
The reason you haven't seen anything for years is the assorted new owners want out of the retail DVR business.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

jacksonian said:


> I'd love to stay with TiVo and honestly that's the only reason I'd keep Comcast at this point. I'm almost ready to jump to YouTube TV and ditch Comcast and TiVo.
> 
> This isn't a complain about TiVo vent. I'm really hoping someone has an idea of what their plans are for the future. I'd love to stay with TiVo until I die.


Hopefully you have many more years of life left in you than TiVo CableCARD DVRs do. All of the major cable operators, including Comcast, have it on their long-term roadmap to eventually change the technology they use to transmit cable TV channels from traditional QAM to streaming IPTV, rendering their systems incompatible with CableCARD devices like TiVo DVRs. Comcast has been very slowly transitioning from QAM to IPTV for nearly a decade now, running both systems side by side, with a few of their newest channels only available on IPTV. Earlier generation X1 boxes were compatible with both QAM and IPTV but the latest ones they've been giving out (as well as their Xfinity Stream app for devices like Roku and Fire TV) only do IPTV. TiVos only do QAM. They cannot access IPTV channels.

At some point -- no one knows when -- Comcast will completely shut down QAM and only offer cable TV service over IPTV. Could be in a year, might be five years from now. When they upgrade the network in an area from the current DOCSIS 3.1 broadband standard to DOCSIS 4.0 is a logical point when that could happen, although Comcast hasn't said so. They've announced that at least some areas will get upgraded to DOCSIS 4.0, allowing multi-gig internet speeds in both directions, in 2023. Will be interesting to see if QAM TV gets shut down in those markets at that time.

Meanwhile, TiVo knows that its DVR business is in irreversible decline, so it has no reason to invest money in evolving/improving it any further at this point. The thing they're chasing now is trying to become a smart TV software provider, using their "TiVo OS" as the built-in software and streaming app platform for 2nd and 3rd-tier TV brands around the world.

Bottom line: if you like your TiVo DVRs and Comcast cable TV service as they currently exist, there's no reason to dump them. But you shouldn't expect them to change or get better. And you should expect that, at some point this decade, they'll cease working. But that day could still be a long way off.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

jacksonian said:


> ...not being able to go 'back' through the menu and having to hit TiVo home button and start from the top and other little silly things...


Press the “Back” button on your remote to go back to the previous screen/menu.

Theres no need to use the TiVo button to start over unless you want to.


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

Thank you everyone for the insights. I hope TiVo can integrate their TiVo OS into smart-tvs. It's been a great ride. It's weird to get old enough to say you've used a product for almost 20 years and will see the sun set on it due to technological obsolescence.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Streaming is the future period. The content distributors get more control and no longer have to deal with last mile contracts. It has also magnified choice. No longer do you buy a cable package with all Peacocks(NBC)/Paramounts(CBS)/Disney(ABC) bundled. You can pick and choose and drop in and drop out as you wish. Wait for all the shows to be out and subscribe for a month and then leave.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

jacksonian said:


> Thank you everyone for the insights. I hope TiVo can integrate their TiVo OS into smart-tvs. It's been a great ride. It's weird to get old enough to say you've used a product for almost 20 years and will see the sun set on it due to technological obsolescence.


If you're interested in TiVo's foray into smart TVs, here's a good recent article that covers it:









TiVo is making its case as a smart TV platform


The first TVs with TiVo OS are set to launch next year.




www.theverge.com


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## cwteevee (Dec 24, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> If you're interested in TiVo's foray into smart TVs, here's a good recent article that covers it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OP is going to be disappointed that that TiVo OS has nothing to do with its DVRs.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

cwteevee said:


> OP is going to be disappointed that that TiVo OS has nothing to do with its DVRs.


yeah I would imagine it's just the Tivo Stream 4k. No different than Roku, GoogleTV, FireTV and AppleTV plus the Samsung/LG TV OS's etc.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

There's no reason TiVo can't work with the MSOs to catch their IPTV streams. They could even partner with DirecTV Stream and sell TiVo TV with an online DVR and their patented commercial autoskip.

The problem is they seem to have no interest in this. I'm sure they've looked into it and done the financial forecasts. It's probably just not a thing that will make them profitable.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

trip1eX said:


> yeah I would imagine it's just the Tivo Stream 4k. No different than Roku, GoogleTV, FireTV and AppleTV plus the Samsung/LG TV OS's etc.


Yeah. I think the TiVo OS home screen is probably pretty similar to what you see inside the TiVo Stream app on the TiVo Stream 4K. A critical difference, though, is that TiVo OS is their own thing based on Linux rather than a lightly customized version of Google's Android TV as the TiVo Stream 4K uses. Which means that TiVo OS will have to have its own set of apps that developers at the various streaming services will have to create and support. Will be interesting to see the level of buy-in that the TiVo app store gets from streaming services given that it's going to be deployed, at least in the near term, on a pretty small percentage of cheaper TVs in Europe.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

southerndoc said:


> There's no reason TiVo can't work with the MSOs to catch their IPTV streams. They could even partner with DirecTV Stream and sell TiVo TV with an online DVR and their patented commercial autoskip.
> 
> The problem is they seem to have no interest in this. I'm sure they've looked into it and done the financial forecasts. It's probably just not a thing that will make them profitable.


Actually there’s a very good reason they can’t “catch” the IPTV streams. There’s no universal standard so any retail device wouldn’t work with any provider.

As for “they could partner with DirecTV Stream”… sure, if DTV or any partner wants to. But they don’t. DTV doesn’t need them, the same reason their DVR hardware partnership ended - it ceased being necessary for DTV.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

I think it's more about the MSOs not wanting third parties to do their DVR. I mean, look what happened after the CableCARD mandate died - the majors basically dropped support for it as fast as they could (there are threads on which cable providers still support it, which ones basically grandfather it in, and which ones aren't going to even bother). 

The DVR is a "branding" experience so MSOs will be able to run their own content on the menus and such - i.e., ads and other marketing stuff. You use their stuff, they want you to know about it. 

Plus, things like IPTV mean they can move the DVR to the cloud which they really like the idea of - suddenly you're forced to obey their whims. Like if they have a popular show they don't want you to skip ads on, a cloud DVR can block that from happening. Something like TiVo or your own DVR on premises is less likely to disallow skipping.

TiVo represents their worst nightmare in allowing the consumer to control the TV watching experience.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

As long as I'm alive and kicking TiVo will never go away. I am their official mascot and make good money for them.😃


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## vbphil (Apr 12, 2003)

Streaming as it is today won't last a whole lot longer. Companies are finding out that the profit margins of direct delivery are suffering. In the beginning they were huge as Netflix was enjoying but now, they see that there is an end to a growing number of subscribers and dumping huge quantities of money into new streaming content can't last. Selling access to bundlers like Comcast was more profitable. Somehow the business model will return to something like that. 

The beauty of Comcast (cable providers) is channel surfing. Try bouncing around to avoid commercials with streamers, it's impossible. Also, try to get 2 TVs in sync to watch Thursday Night Football from Amazon Prime each TV with its own Fire Stick.

Classic TiVo coupled with cable is still the best experience.


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## djw (Jan 20, 2003)

ChannelsDVR for TVE and OTA is where TiVo should have branched, if they were interested in doing so. It is apparent that they are not interested in surviving as a DVR.

And I agree that Classic TiVo is still the best DVR experience. Cable shouldn't be necessary in that equation.


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## JimmyS (Jul 27, 2020)

I too have used TiVo for 20 years. For me, the problem with switching is streaming is still terrible for sports. Both visually and financially. I have great Internet speeds, but the streams still look terrible for fast action (and of course they are also minutes behind real time). 
Financially, the cost of all the streaming services to see regular TV, MLB, and NHL is too much compared to the plans I've locked in with FIOS (NFL is thankfully still mostly on local channels). 

Hopefully things improve before TiVO/Cable is gone.


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## charlotte110 (Nov 9, 2010)

jacksonian said:


> Hi Everyone,
> I've had TiVos since day 1, series 1. My wife and I have loved them. I'm currently rocking a Bolt and a couple of Minis. But I've been so disappointed with what seems like a lack of growth/innovation. It seems like it's been 2 years now since the latest interface update which seemed like a step backwards--not being able to go 'back' through the menu and having to hit TiVo home button and start from the top and other little silly things. I'd love to stay with TiVo and honestly that's the only reason I'd keep Comcast at this point. I'm almost ready to jump to YouTube TV and ditch Comcast and TiVo.
> 
> This isn't a complain about TiVo vent. I'm really hoping someone has an idea of what their plans are for the future. I'd love to stay with TiVo until I die. But with all the streaming services and lack of innovation, I'm looking for some reassurance that they have something up their sleeve.
> ...


I have had TiVo forever too and loved it. We use it to record from an antennae. However, when I bought the last update, it would not longer receive CBS and PBS after about six in the afternoon. Those local stations swore they did nothing different, but I know they did something because it worked in the day time. Because we watch those two networks frequently, we changed to You Tube TV. We still have TiVo and I try to keep it up to date because we sometimes watch a show that had a streaming problem on You Tube TV. We keep saying we need to drop it because we essentially pay $12.95 for nothing every month. Some day we will. I assume theTiVo receivers have not improved.\
T


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## electrowiz64 (Aug 6, 2014)

TiVos not gonna die off, contrary to all. They’ll shrink for sure, but with the right management, they can live on.

The parent company owns the DVR patent so they will live on from that (as long as live TV is relevant). TiVo does have partnerships with smaller providers like RCN & Mediacom who want DVRs but don’t wanna pay the X1 tax like [email protected]/Charter joint venture & Cox licenses. And TiVo does have an IPTV platform available for these service operators (I think RCN is issuing TiVo IPTV client boxes to new customers). For everyone else, there are smaller providers that will probably stay on QAM for more years, but tivo will probably stop making CableCARD boxes and fixate on antenna customers (CableCARD users can buy on the secondary market). Spectrum has a whoLe plan of mid split rollout that will eliminate Out of Band spectrum that the cablecards communicate with & Verizons new ONTs don’t even have RFoG cable so the end is near.

TiVo OS will not live on, developers and Linux TiVo sdk is a little awkward. If it were, we’d have MORE apps for existing TiVos. The rest of their consumer market relies on Android TV OS


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## myblown23t (2 mo ago)

jacksonian said:


> Hi Everyone, I've had TiVos since day 1, series 1. My wife and I have loved them. I'm currently rocking a Bolt and a couple of Minis. But I've been so disappointed with what seems like a lack of growth/innovation. It seems like it's been 2 years now since the latest interface update which seemed like a step backwards--not being able to go 'back' through the menu and having to hit TiVo home button and start from the top and other little silly things. I'd love to stay with TiVo and honestly that's the only reason I'd keep Comcast at this point. I'm almost ready to jump to YouTube TV and ditch Comcast and TiVo. This isn't a complain about TiVo vent. I'm really hoping someone has an idea of what their plans are for the future. I'd love to stay with TiVo until I die. But with all the streaming services and lack of innovation, I'm looking for some reassurance that they have something up their sleeve. Thanks for any insight! Brent


 you


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## notrhj (Oct 25, 2016)

electrowiz64 said:


> TiVos not gonna die off, contrary to all. They’ll shrink for sure, but with the right management, they can live on.
> 
> The parent company owns the DVR patent so they will live on from that (as long as live TV is relevant).


‘How long do you think a DVR patent lasts ? TiVo has been around a loooong time


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## myblown23t (2 mo ago)

jacksonian said:


> Hi Everyone,
> I've had TiVos since day 1, series 1. My wife and I have loved them. I'm currently rocking a Bolt and a couple of Minis. But I've been so disappointed with what seems like a lack of growth/innovation. It seems like it's been 2 years now since the latest interface update which seemed like a step backwards--not being able to go 'back' through the menu and having to hit TiVo home button and start from the top and other little silly things. I'd love to stay with TiVo and honestly that's the only reason I'd keep Comcast at this point. I'm almost ready to jump to YouTube TV and ditch Comcast and TiVo.
> 
> This isn't a complain about TiVo vent. I'm really hoping someone has an idea of what their plans are for the future. I'd love to stay with TiVo until I die. But with all the streaming services and lack of innovation, I'm looking for some reassurance that they have something up their sleeve.
> ...


You’re lucky, I lost cable card use from Spectrum (Comcast’s) in August. I picked up 2 DVRs to replace my TiVos. One kept failing, I replaced it, the replacement failed. I had them send a technician out to work on it. After 1/2 an hour he got it to work. A week later, it failed. I gave it back to them. I’m looking to replace Spectrum with streaming services. Any suggestions?
Walt


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## DBurstiner (Aug 19, 2007)

I only noticed one reference to OTA here although I didn't read every message. I use TiVo and a rural Tennessee. I'll use it for OTA only. Works fine. I have an outdoor antenna. I get all the main broadcast channels for free. That was the basis of TiVo when I first started with the original TV also many years ago. I ditched satellite TV cable isn't even available where I live. So I have streaming services and Starlink. I stream most content and some things that get only through the TiVo and it doesn't cost me anything because I bought two Bolts when they first came out and they had lifetime service. I do think it said that tivo DVRs are probably going to disappear because they were always the best. The cable companies could never get it right. And even the cable companies that adopted TiVos as their own DVR. They still didn't get it right.


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## dcpoppy (Apr 17, 2004)

djw said:


> ChannelsDVR for TVE and OTA is where TiVo should have branched, if they were interested in doing so. It is apparent that they are not interested in surviving as a DVR.
> 
> And I agree that Classic TiVo is still the best DVR experience. Cable shouldn't be necessary in that equation.


But only until ATSC 3.0 (NextGen TV) supersedes ATSC 1.0/2.0 ☹


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## ignatz (Mar 23, 2003)

The problem started when TiVo locked down the hardware with encryption. Had they not done that, it would have continued to be a force to be reckoned with--a robust ecosystem of FOSS development, options and features. And they've totally bombed on the whole streaming thing. Streaming is, in every way, a step back in both viewer experience and rights. As noted, it puts absolute control back in the hands of the providers. What you can watch tomorrow won't be the same as today if the provider decides to pull content, and they control whether you can skip content--or adverts--not the local box. Deciding to cut the cord is a nightmare--finding out what you consider important, then finding the right stream. Keeping track of your subscriptions. And so on.

But the very worst is the loss of all the One Pass functionality. I accept that recording is dead, but the ability to tell the machine "I want to know all current episodes of _these_ streams, and which ones I've already seen" without MY having to keep a list and schedule my time to go check manually would still be a huge win over current streaming options. And I have to believe that the fine control over the playback would be far better.


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## lmeltzer (Jun 7, 2021)

charlotte110 said:


> I have had TiVo forever too and loved it. We use it to record from an antennae. However, when I bought the last update, it would not longer receive CBS and PBS after about six in the afternoon. Those local stations swore they did nothing different, but I know they did something because it worked in the day time. Because we watch those two networks frequently, we changed to You Tube TV. We still have TiVo and I try to keep it up to date because we sometimes watch a show that had a streaming problem on You Tube TV. We keep saying we need to drop it because we essentially pay $12.95 for nothing every month. Some day we will. I assume theTiVo receivers have not improved.\
> T


We have had a problem several times with our antenna not tuning in at certain times of the day (and at certain times of year). I think our issue actually had more to do with the broadcast stations changing something about the way they sent the signal. We solved it once by replacing our signal booster. We solved it another time, by repositioning our antenna and then retuning the station on the TIVO.


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## kdc914 (Jul 13, 2007)

cwoody222 said:


> Press the “Back” button on your remote to go back to the previous screen/menu.
> 
> Theres no need to use the TiVo button to start over unless you want to.


If OP is using an older/longer peanut remote, those don't have a "back" button, hence having to use the Tivo button to start anew.


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## drweb (Sep 17, 2008)

On the cable card part, I had a Cox rep inside for an issue recently, he couldn't say enough that TiVo was dead, he couldn't touch the cable card, they had no new cards, TiVo is dying give it up. That's the kind of cable feedback you get about TiVo these days...

DrWeb


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## Lokerd (Jan 6, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> Hopefully you have many more years of life left in you than TiVo CableCARD DVRs do. All of the major cable operators, including Comcast, have it on their long-term roadmap to eventually change the technology they use to transmit cable TV channels from traditional QAM to streaming IPTV, rendering their systems incompatible with CableCARD devices like TiVo DVRs. Comcast has been very slowly transitioning from QAM to IPTV for nearly a decade now, running both systems side by side, with a few of their newest channels only available on IPTV. Earlier generation X1 boxes were compatible with both QAM and IPTV but the latest ones they've been giving out (as well as their Xfinity Stream app for devices like Roku and Fire TV) only do IPTV. TiVos only do QAM. They cannot access IPTV channels. At some point -- no one knows when -- Comcast will completely shut down QAM and only offer cable TV service over IPTV. Could be in a year, might be five years from now. When they upgrade the network in an area from the current DOCSIS 3.1 broadband standard to DOCSIS 4.0 is a logical point when that could happen, although Comcast hasn't said so. They've announced that at least some areas will get upgraded to DOCSIS 4.0, allowing multi-gig internet speeds in both directions, in 2023. Will be interesting to see if QAM TV gets shut down in those markets at that time. Meanwhile, TiVo knows that its DVR business is in irreversible decline, so it has no reason to invest money in evolving/improving it any further at this point. The thing they're chasing now is trying to become a smart TV software provider, using their "TiVo OS" as the built-in software and streaming app platform for 2nd and 3rd-tier TV brands around the world. Bottom line: if you like your TiVo DVRs and Comcast cable TV service as they currently exist, there's no reason to dump them. But you shouldn't expect them to change or get better. And you should expect that, at some point this decade, they'll cease working. But that day could still be a long way off.


 That is an impressive amount info and specific details. I have two thoughts…and I have Spectrum Cable Card: 1) What to do when TiVo Unit dies…it is 3 year old spinning HD, so anticipating sooner than later. 2) With Roku, Firestick plugged into the TV also, along with Apple TV, AmazonPrime, Netflix, Paramount+…should I even continue with TiVo at this point. We still record a few broadcast shows…and I like watching TiVo recorded shows WAY more than a streaming show. But everything is adding up, that is for sure.


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## Lokerd (Jan 6, 2011)

That is an impressive amount info and specific details. I have two thoughts…and I have Spectrum Cable Card:
1) What to do when TiVo Unit dies…it is 3 year old spinning HD, so anticipating sooner than later.
2) With Roku, Firestick plugged into the TV also, along with Apple TV, AmazonPrime, Netflix, Paramount+…should I even continue with TiVo at this point.

We still record a few broadcast shows…and I like watching TiVo recorded shows WAY more than a streaming show. But everything is adding up, that is for sure.


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## V1llaV515tivo (2 mo ago)

jacksonian said:


> Hi Everyone,
> I've had TiVos since day 1, series 1. My wife and I have loved them. I'm currently rocking a Bolt and a couple of Minis. But I've been so disappointed with what seems like a lack of growth/innovation. It seems like it's been 2 years now since the latest interface update which seemed like a step backwards--not being able to go 'back' through the menu and having to hit TiVo home button and start from the top and other little silly things. I'd love to stay with TiVo and honestly that's the only reason I'd keep Comcast at this point. I'm almost ready to jump to YouTube TV and ditch Comcast and TiVo.
> 
> This isn't a complain about TiVo vent. I'm really hoping someone has an idea of what their plans are for the future. I'd love to stay with TiVo until I die. But with all the streaming services and lack of innovation, I'm looking for some reassurance that they have something up their sleeve.
> ...


My older Bolt with cable card stopped working for any of the Apps for streami8ng, so I added a $49 Roku box to my setup. I only use the Tivo to record a few things, like the late night talk shows, some PBS and Discover/History channel shows. I'm going to let my Tivo die a natural death and not replace it once it's well and truly dead. If the cable changes make it obsolete before that, so be it. While I've also been a Tivo customer since their 1st year in business, most of what I want to watch is streamed from somewhere other than Comcast/Xfinity these days. Tivo had a good run and it was a good product. But like a lot of tech, progress is going to sideline it sooner than later.


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## Tonyw97007 (Apr 14, 2011)

Ok here is an Idea for someone. Take an OS like TiVo which I have several and have had for many years. Port it to android or?? . Then have it run as an app that like a DVR can record to a USB drive on the TV just like we currently do. We would have all the current functionality It would be just like a TiVo built-in. My current Google TV can read up to a 8TB USB 3.0 drive.


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## crobjones2 (Jul 17, 2021)

I purchased 2 edge's (junk) just before my tv provider announced they were ending new tv service. Internet service is only available to new customers. I pay a premium to stay connected to the last of their television service. 
There will be more bundling between streaming services, as seen already with Disney and Hulu. Internet providers will likely be providing the bundles as it will be more cost effective for the content providers to reach a larger client base.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

vbphil said:


> Streaming as it is today won't last a whole lot longer. Companies are finding out that the profit margins of direct delivery are suffering. In the beginning they were huge as Netflix was enjoying but now, they see that there is an end to a growing number of subscribers and dumping huge quantities of money into new streaming content can't last. Selling access to bundlers like Comcast was more profitable. Somehow the business model will return to something like that.
> 
> The beauty of Comcast (cable providers) is channel surfing. Try bouncing around to avoid commercials with streamers, it's impossible. Also, try to get 2 TVs in sync to watch Thursday Night Football from Amazon Prime each TV with its own Fire Stick.
> 
> Classic TiVo coupled with cable is still the best experience.


I politely totally disagree. Comcast is losing TV subscribers at a fast pace. Direct TV is doing poorly as well. With streaming I can watch a whole back catalog. I don't watch broadcast anymore except for news and maybe some late shows to end the day. Even the traffic in this forum relative to TV shows shows people are posting much more about accessing shows via streaming then they are about traditional guide viewing.

When I watch PBS shows I prefer to go through the PBS app as they appear earlier. The problem in general is the rising competition from things like YouTube and other media services. We also have a YouTube premium subscription and that is where I would say the equivalent of our channel surfing lies. My wife use to record all the cooking shows as her go to's. Now it's all about her favorite cooking people in YouTube. She almost never looks at FoodTV anymore.

The kids today already get that. They are essentially building their own TV channels through their preferences not trying to align some network definition of preference called a TV channel.

The problem isn't streaming is that content creation is expensive and we are having increasing competition. The streamers don't lock you into contracts so it's easy to dump and return. The original streamers like Netflix use to have a consistent subscriber but with all the competition they are becoming part of the churn.

Also at least for me traditional cable was way more expensive. I use to pay $160 for internet/TV/phone and that was on a discounted contracted rate. It also included HBO.
Now I get gig speed internet for $60
YouTube TV for $55 (Part of me wonders if I should keep this as I spend little time here)
HBO for free with ATT
Netflix for free with T-Mobile
Apple TV+ for free with T-Mobile
A host of others like Paramount Plus and Hulu with AmEx offer discounts

My total is maybe $120 which gives me a lot of breathing room.

I would never go back to the limitations of traditional cable and Tivo. The wife agrees.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

I think OTA broadcasters will have more challenges going ahead. I think OTA has been subsidized by cable subscribers to some extent, so there has been motivation to put higher quality content there to keep those carriage agreements in place. But as cable tv subs have fallen there are fewer people paying these fees. We have been seeing established shows moving from broadcast to the streaming networks and NBC has been floating the idea of dropping to 2 hours of prime time, like FOX has always been.

It would be nice if Tivo supported ATSC 3 because it is much easier to receive, but I don't think it will be a problem for several years. The current strategy is to have one or two ATSC3 stations carry the primary .1 signal of all the main stations.


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## FrankN (Jan 26, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> TiVos only do QAM. They cannot access IPTV channels.


What would it take for TiVo to make a cable card capable of IPTV? TiVo does the DVR functionality so much better than anyone else. I wish they had been able to negotiate being the default DVR provider to the cable and satellite companies.

I'm not sure how much function TiVo can put into a TV without some DVR capability and a full-function remote.


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## kucharsk (Feb 2, 2007)

ignatz said:


> The problem started when TiVo locked down the hardware with encryption. Had they not done that, it would have continued to be a force to be reckoned with--a robust ecosystem of FOSS development, options and features.


FOSS advocates always say that, but when it comes to TiVo it just means every set top box would have used their technology for free.


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## caine0001_7698 (2 mo ago)

I am not sure if this is addressed anywhere in the forums, but Spectrum so far has not announced an end date for CableCards. They only have 17,000 customers using CableCards but I was talking to the Cable Card Department and they told me it is being talked about. It may not be for years but it is going to happen. I was told that we will receive a letter about it long in advance of the change. Just an FYI for anyone wondering about this who are Spectrum Customers. I just got me a new EDGE for $149.99 under the Continual Care program and would at least like to let it get dusty before retiring it.


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## howards (Oct 31, 2007)

Have been a Tivo customer since Series 2 (my two Series 2's sit gathering dust since Comcast went to all-digital).

Been running a Premiere for about 10 years. Recently been worrying that it's close to time for the Premiere to die, so when I found out I could still get a cablecard from Comcast I bought a used Roamio on eBay. Hedged my bets by getting a Roamio that is both cablecard and OTA.

Dreading the day Comcast stops supporting my cablecards. I have tried various streaming solutions and none of them hold a candle to Tivo's convenience. I spoke with Comcast customer service and asked how much longer they will support cablecard. I was told as long as I stay on my current Comcast plan I should not have a problem. Not sure I believe that.


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## geoffwalker (Oct 3, 2009)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. I think the TiVo OS home screen is probably pretty similar to what you see inside the TiVo Stream app on the TiVo Stream 4K. A critical difference, though, is that TiVo OS is their own thing based on Linux rather than a lightly customized version of Google's Android TV as the TiVo Stream 4K uses. Which means that TiVo OS will have to have its own set of apps that developers at the various streaming services will have to create and support. Will be interesting to see the level of buy-in that the TiVo app store gets from streaming services given that it's going to be deployed, at least in the near term, on a pretty small percentage of cheaper TVs in Europe.


FYI, the TiVO Stream is effectively dead. See TiVo’s first Android TV dongle also appears to be its last


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## deanhallca (2 mo ago)

I am also a Tivo owner and lover since Series 1. And I'm disappointed Tivo hasn't moved forward. At this point Tivo's big plus is commercial skip. But the BIG downside is not having On Demand, so we still use the Comcast box. We also have a fire stick. Although I love my Tivo, if it dies, I wouldn't replace it. I'd just use me "free" Xfinity DVR and save the monthly $12.95 fee...


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Lokerd said:


> That is an impressive amount info and specific details. I have two thoughts…and I have Dpectrum Cable Card: 1) What to do when TiVo Unit dies…it is 3 year old spinningHD, so anticipating sooner than later. 2) With Roku, Fitestick plugged into the TV also, along with Apple TV, AmazonPrime, Netflix, Paramount+…should I even continue with TV at this point. We still record a few broadcast shows…and I like watching TiVorecorded shows WAY more than a streaming show. But everything g is adding up, that is for sure.


Thanks. Charter Spectrum is anticipating changes to their network in some areas that may mean that CableCARD devices like TiVo DVRs will no longer work with their cable TV service. (There's some uncertainty around this but Charter did send out an email this summer to at least some of their customers about the matter. See here for the full story.)

At any rate, the question is: what should you do when either your old TiVo stops working or your Spectrum cable TV service stop working with your TiVo? I can't really answer for you, only give you my thoughts/suggestions. I would not spend any more money on TiVo DVRs. You'd need to decide if you want to keep some form of cable TV or if you would be OK just using streaming apps plus maybe an over-the-air (OTA) antenna to get your local stations. You can buy an OTA DVR such as Tablo that lets you access live and recorded OTA TV via their app on streaming devices like Roku and Fire TV. But before investing in an OTA DVR, be aware that you can watch CBS shows next day on-demand ad-free in Paramount+, and even get a live stream of your local CBS station, for $10/mo. You can watch NBC shows next day, and also watch NBC sports live, in Peacock ($5 with ads or $10 ad-free). You can watch ABC and Fox shows next day in Hulu ($8 with ads or $15 ad-free). And generally speaking, the picture quality is much better through those apps than what you'd see on cable or even with an OTA antenna.

If you decide that you do want to stick with some form of cable TV in order to get all your main locals plus channels like ESPN, CNN, Discovery, Hallmark, FX, Paramount Network, Fox Sports 1, USA, etc., then you could look into YouTube TV or DirecTV Stream, starting at $65 or $70 per month (DVR service included). They have apps for both Roku and Fire TV. Or you could keep cable TV from Spectrum but use it with a DVR box that you rent from them.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

FrankN said:


> What would it take for TiVo to make a cable card capable of IPTV?


There's not going to be an IPTV version of CableCARD that will work across all IPTV providers. However, some IPTV providers (mainly small ones) are opting to partner with TiVo and use them to provide the software that runs their IPTV boxes/DVRs that they give to their customers. But that's not something the customer can control, it's a decision that the operator has to make to use TiVo to power their own boxes.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

cwoody222 said:


> Actually there’s a very good reason they can’t “catch” the IPTV streams. There’s no universal standard so any retail device wouldn’t work with any provider.


There was at one time a (reasonably robust) rumor that TiVo did indeed talk to at least a few operators about licensing the operators IPTV solution for consumer STBs (it is generally accepted that TiVo had the engineering talent to be able to build a solution, but they would need a license to use it, and that work would be (as you say) somewhat different for every operator). However, ultimately, no agreement was reached (it is all about money, of course), and it is not going to happen now (that ship sailed a long time ago).

---

As a common approach to such IP licensing is a cross licensing deal (we will provide you access to some of our IP for free, and you give us access to some of your IP for free), it is likely TiVo was unwilling to accept that approach to give up an existing IP revenue stream from such operators for the possibility of future consumer cable STB revenue (by that point I think TiVo had already mostly pivoted to being an operator solution first, and consumer STBs were of a much lower consideration). Another common approach is a per shipped device fee, but that would have required TiVo to pay such a license (likely not cheap) for every unit in one way or another (could have been NRC or MRC, but for a NRC would be a large hit to cover existing units) and it is likely each operator would simultaneously want fees, as TiVo was not going to share their customer information with operators (and as one-way UDCP devices, there is no way to know what devices are in use where).


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

caine0001_7698 said:


> I am not sure if this is addressed anywhere in the forums, but Spectrum so far has not announced an end date for CableCards. They only have 17,000 customers using CableCards but I was talking to the Cable Card Department and they told me it is being talked about. It may not be for years but it is going to happen. I was told that we will receive a letter about it long in advance of the change. Just an FYI for anyone wondering about this who are Spectrum Customers. I just got me a new EDGE for $149.99 under the Continual Care program and would at least like to let it get dusty before retiring it.


This has been discussed in the forums plenty. Do a search.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

caine0001_7698 said:


> I am not sure if this is addressed anywhere in the forums, but Spectrum so far has not announced an end date for CableCards. They only have 17,000 customers using CableCards but I was talking to the Cable Card Department and they told me it is being talked about. It may not be for years but it is going to happen. I was told that we will receive a letter about it long in advance of the change. Just an FYI for anyone wondering about this who are Spectrum Customers. I just got me a new EDGE for $149.99 under the Continual Care program and would at least like to let it get dusty before retiring it.


LOL Good ole’ Spectrum. I cut that cable 3 yrs ago after ten frustrating years of non-support for my TiVos with CableCard and Tuning Adapter. I can only imagine the response if I had called their support and asked to speak to their “Cable Card Department”. And if there were any Spectrum personnel “talking about” ending CC it certainly wasn’t any of the support personnel in my region since I never met one who even knew what a CC or Tuning Adapter was. Yes I have a grudge!


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## Ryan Hager (Dec 30, 2017)

NashGuy said:


> There's not going to be an IPTV version of CableCARD that will work across all IPTV providers. However, some IPTV providers (mainly small ones) are opting to partner with TiVo and use them to provide the software that runs their IPTV boxes/DVRs that they give to their customers. But that's not something the customer can control, it's a decision that the operator has to make to use TiVo to power their own boxes.


Search for TV Everywhere. Or TV Everywhere DVR. It's not ubiquitous. But, it's along the lines of CableCard. I just decommissioned my bolt with cable card / spectrum and switched to Philo. I did have to purchase another network tuner. for local channels. I wish Tivo OTA DVR had 4 channels and I could seamlessly access it on my Tivo Stream.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Ryan Hager said:


> Search for TV Everywhere. Or TV Everywhere DVR. It's not ubiquitous. But, it's along the lines of CableCard. I just decommissioned my bolt with cable card / spectrum and switched to Philo. I did have to purchase another network tuner. for local channels. I wish Tivo OTA DVR had 4 channels and I could seamlessly access it on my Tivo Stream.


Yes, the DVR service available in the Channels app ($8/mo or $80/yr) can record the TV Everywhere streams available from cable and some local broadcast channels using your cable TV provider log-in. (It can also be used as an OTA DVR system when paired with an HDHomeRun OTA tuner.) 

Of all the various next-gen DVR systems, Channels is probably the slickest and most TiVo-like. There's an entire thread on this forum about using it where you can read the reactions and advice of former TiVo users who have switched to Channels. See here:



https://www.tivocommunity.com/threads/channels-dvr.584214/



But Channels DVR is not for everyone as it involves installing and running the Channels server software on an always-on PC, Mac or NAS -- that's where your DVR recordings are stored -- and then watching through the Channels app on your Apple TV, Android/Google TV or Fire TV device. So maybe a bit more complicated than setting up and using a TiVo box.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Worf said:


> I think it's more about the MSOs not wanting third parties to do their DVR. I mean, look what happened after the CableCARD mandate died - the majors basically dropped support for it as fast as they could (there are threads on which cable providers still support it, which ones basically grandfather it in, and which ones aren't going to even bother).


The most that has happened with cable cards are unsubstantiated reports in some areas (not widespread) that one or two providers don’t issue new cards

Besides those hit-and-miss reports not a single major cable company has made any official change in CC support policy.

Saying that major companies dropped support “as fast as they could” is not even close to what actually is happening.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

cwoody222 said:


> The most that has happened with cable cards are unsubstantiated reports in some areas (not widespread) that one or two providers don’t issue new cards
> 
> Besides those hit-and-miss reports not a single major cable company has made any official change in CC support policy.
> 
> Saying that major companies dropped support “as fast as they could” is not even close to what actually is happening.


Meaning they are stuck in the past when it comes to resolution and channel offerings as well as symmetric bandwidth.


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## larrylaf (Aug 23, 2007)

JimmyS said:


> I too have used TiVo for 20 years. For me, the problem with switching is streaming is still terrible for sports. Both visually and financially. I have great Internet speeds, but the streams still look terrible for fast action (and of course they are also minutes behind real time).
> Financially, the cost of all the streaming services to see regular TV, MLB, and NHL is too much compared to the plans I've locked in with FIOS (NFL is thankfully still mostly on local channels).
> 
> Hopefully things improve before TiVO/Cable is gone.


I'm with you, JimmyS. Until I tried FuboTV on an Apple TV 4K -- the Multiview experience is incredible. I'm able to watch up to 4 live streams but usually only manage toggling between three games.


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## larrylaf (Aug 23, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> Hopefully you have many more years of life left in you than TiVo CableCARD DVRs do. All of the major cable operators, including Comcast, have it on their long-term roadmap to eventually change the technology they use to transmit cable TV channels from traditional QAM to streaming IPTV, rendering their systems incompatible with CableCARD devices like TiVo DVRs. Comcast has been very slowly transitioning from QAM to IPTV for nearly a decade now, running both systems side by side, with a few of their newest channels only available on IPTV. Earlier generation X1 boxes were compatible with both QAM and IPTV but the latest ones they've been giving out (as well as their Xfinity Stream app for devices like Roku and Fire TV) only do IPTV. TiVos only do QAM. They cannot access IPTV channels.
> 
> At some point -- no one knows when -- Comcast will completely shut down QAM and only offer cable TV service over IPTV. Could be in a year, might be five years from now. When they upgrade the network in an area from the current DOCSIS 3.1 broadband standard to DOCSIS 4.0 is a logical point when that could happen, although Comcast hasn't said so. They've announced that at least some areas will get upgraded to DOCSIS 4.0, allowing multi-gig internet speeds in both directions, in 2023. Will be interesting to see if QAM TV gets shut down in those markets at that time.
> 
> ...


Well-crafted info, NashGuy. You sound like a cable guy (it takes one to know one... ). Charter and Comcast cover about 85-88% of US homes passed. Their joint venture recently announced Xumo as the brand name for a feature-rich streaming video ecosystem. "Xumo will go-to-market with its first branded devices in late 2023, distributed by Comcast, Charter, and Walmart, with additional distributors to be announced in the future." Read the full story here.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

larrylaf said:


> Well-crafted info, NashGuy. You sound like a cable guy (it takes one to know one... ). Charter and Comcast cover about 85-88% of US homes passed. Their joint venture recently announced Xumo as the brand name for a feature-rich streaming video ecosystem. "Xumo will go-to-market with its first branded devices in late 2023, distributed by Comcast, Charter, and Walmart, with additional distributors to be announced in the future." Read the full story here.


I've been happy with my trial of DirecTV Stream and ability to use Channels DVR with it. I'll take a look at Xumo in case TiVo fails. I guess like many other TiVo fans, I keep holding out for one last miracle that will save the interface, DVR, and the TiVo experience.


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## Phil T (Oct 29, 2003)

Yesterday I ventured to Microcenter and purchased a 4 tuner Tablo (non HDMI) with the thought it would replace my OTA Tivo Bolt Vox and minis. The experiment lasted about 4 hours. My Tivo has been dropping some channels and I expected the Tablo tuner would be better receiving the weaker OTA stations. Wrong! 

The Tablo, using the same outdoor antenna as the Tivo received even less channels and couldn't tune some the Tivo could. 

The buffering on the Tablo to load channels and guide was unbearable. I tried two different hard drives, one a newer solid state. I gave it overnight to download guide data and hopefully do better. Every time you scroll down the guide you have to wait for it to populate. Every channel change results in a spinning blue circle before it loads.

Watching it on a iPad was impossible with all the buffering. I have gig internet and a strong wifi signal through out the house. 

As many issues as Tivo has, my Tivo Bolt and minis, IMO, it still blow the Tablo out of the water as a OTA DVR. 

Returning the Tablo to Microcenter tomorrow.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

I hacked our first Series1 by adding a second HDD. I've been hacking them ever since and currently have a 4TB Premiere XL and a 3TB bolt both with LT subs. I had to install a new 3TB drive in the Bolt a couple of months ago when the original died. (I was glad I squirreled one away before they stopped making them.) Lost all of the recordings, but had a lot backed up on the Premiere and it wasn't the end of the world.

So having been there since the beginning and having spent way too many late-night hours getting them to do things I never thought I could (or TiVo probably ever thought about), I too will be sad when the day comes that either of my last boxes dies... because I won't "invest" in a new one.

There's nothing like a TiVo when it comes to convenience. Nothing. I've tried to cut the cord with multiple different devices and sources, but always come back to TiVo. We're currently with Comcast/Xfinity and we know that the end of cable card support is coming. Explored OTA antenna, etc. and if/when the day comes I might drop a few dollars on a OTA TiVo for fun, but it wouldn't be the center of our TV watching universe like it is now.

I've lost track of the subs we have for streaming services. The wife and I were talking about it when we were using the Apple TV 4K the other night. (Tried other streamers, but keep coming back to the ATV.) Before Steve Jobs passed he commented about TV, saying "I cracked it". Rather than the physical TV some thought he meant, it appears that he was referring to a voice-controlled environment. A world where all we needed to do was ask for what we wanted. It's pretty much come true. I can tell Siri, show me "[insert almost anything available - TV shows, Music, Podcasts, etc. - here] and it's suddenly listed in front of me, ready to play. It's not limited to what Apple offers either. It "knows" all of the streaming services we have currently and shows everything that's available, no matter what the source. The future, Steve's future anyway, is basically here.

Whatever is next, it just won't be as convenient as TiVo. I will miss that. Hopefully we can enjoy it for a little while longer.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

drweb said:


> On the cable card part, I had a Cox rep inside for an issue recently, he couldn't say enough that TiVo was dead, he couldn't touch the cable card, they had no new cards, TiVo is dying give it up. That's the kind of cable feedback you get about TiVo these days...
> 
> DrWeb


Ha! When the Comcast/Xfinity installer set us up in our current house a few months ago he just had to comment about how no one has TiVos anymore, that their DVRs were far superior. I asked him if their DVR had 7TB of recording space. "Um, er, no". Do they have 10 tuners that can record 10 different programs simultaneously while playing back two other recordings? "Um, well, no". So the TiVos I have are actually superior then? "Well, um... okay, gotta go."


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

cwoody222 said:


> The most that has happened with cable cards are unsubstantiated reports in some areas (not widespread) that one or two providers don’t issue new cards
> 
> Besides those hit-and-miss reports not a single major cable company has made any official change in CC support policy.
> 
> Saying that major companies dropped support “as fast as they could” is not even close to what actually is happening.


LOL, you are probably correct but I can’t help laughing since my Spectrum (formerly TWC) region could never “drop” support for TiVo, CC or TA, since they never provided it to begin with!


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## NickTheGreat (Aug 31, 2015)

The second that my cable company (Mediacom) drops cable card support I will drop them. I will also probably drop them the second my Tivo dies. 

I feel that my setup of Cable card, roamio and mini's is the far superior solution to all the streaming options on the roku. It's faster, easier to navigate, and doesn't spoil game scores for me like ESPN+ does. 
But I'm obviously in the minority on that front.


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## JLV03 (Feb 12, 2018)

NickTheGreat said:


> The second that my cable company (Mediacom) drops cable card support I will drop them. I will also probably drop them the second my Tivo dies.
> 
> I feel that my setup of Cable card, roamio and mini's is the far superior solution to all the streaming options on the roku. It's faster, easier to navigate, and doesn't spoil game scores for me like ESPN+ does.
> But I'm obviously in the minority on that front.


Mediacom has repeatedly claimed (via online forums, Reddit, etc.) that they have no intentions of dropping CC. HOWEVER, I have noticed that the "new" channels (in the 11xx range) that show up on my TiVo channel list are IPTV ones. Consumer TiVos can't do anything with them (other than add these un-tuneable channels to the list), but the Mediacom eBox can and does display them. 

So Mediacom isn't actively killing CC, but it is fairly clear what direction they want to go.


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## nodollarapps (2 mo ago)

dlfl said:


> LOL Good ole’ Spectrum. I cut that cable 3 yrs ago after ten frustrating years of non-support for my TiVos with CableCard and Tuning Adapter. I can only imagine the response if I had called their support and asked to speak to their “Cable Card Department”. And if there were any Spectrum personnel “talking about” ending CC it certainly wasn’t any of the support personnel in my region since I never met one who even knew what a CC or Tuning Adapter was. Yes I have a grudge!


 They do have a cable card tech group......those guys actually know what they are doing and helped me out numerous times when the local tech did not have a clue.


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## Larry Hutchinson (Dec 7, 1999)

Hah! I have been following this thread for amusement, but this morning I turned on our system, 2 DirecTV boxes and an OTA Romeo, to check on one of the DirecTV boxes that had been freezing. Remarkably, it was working but when I switched to the TiVo, I found frozen static. Unplugging and replugging gave no output at all. Lights are on but no one is home. I have to assume the unit is dead since a bad hard disk would not likely give no video output at all.

So, I then check on a replacement and it looks like the Edge with only two tuners (seriously?) is all that is available. Gack.


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## Old Hickory (Jan 13, 2011)

NickTheGreat said:


> The second that my cable company (Mediacom) drops cable card support I will drop them. I will also probably drop them the second my Tivo dies.
> 
> I feel that my setup of Cable card, roamio and mini's is the far superior solution to all the streaming options on the roku. It's faster, easier to navigate, and doesn't spoil game scores for me like ESPN+ does.
> But I'm obviously in the minority on that front.


Same here but Comcast. But I don't have a plan for that day.


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## redbeard25 (Jan 15, 2002)

I have dabbled with Channels DVR. The thing that keeps me from jumping in is the lack of a lifetime sub. I understand why they don't have one, but until my Tivo gives up the ghost, I don't feel like adding another fee. 

The other DVR in my house is an Amazon Fire TV Recast that I got a couple years back on a Black Friday sale. It seems to be pretty solid for OTA recording. The interface isn't "tivo-like," but it does the job.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

redbeard25 said:


> I have dabbled with Channels DVR. The thing that keeps me from jumping in is the lack of a lifetime sub. I understand why they don't have one, but until my Tivo gives up the ghost, I don't feel like adding another fee.
> 
> The other DVR in my house is an Amazon Fire TV Recast that I got a couple years back on a Black Friday sale. It seems to be pretty solid for OTA recording. The interface isn't "tivo-like," but it does the job.


Once you have lifetime you are no longer a customer. They have no incentive to pay attention to you. If you like the product pay to keep them in business.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

redbeard25 said:


> The thing that keeps me from jumping in is the lack of a lifetime sub.


If one wants to do their own "lifetime" sub just invest in something like a quality government bond and take the interest and pay for your Channels subscription (~$2000 would likely pay around $80/yr, and you get to recover the principal if you decide that Channels is not the solution you are looking for).

The long term issue with Channels may be if/when (a currently unknowable date) some content providers start to require Widevine L1 (rather than the current L3), which will end the TVE recording capability for those content providers.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

larrylaf said:


> Well-crafted info, NashGuy. You sound like a cable guy (it takes one to know one... ). Charter and Comcast cover about 85-88% of US homes passed. Their joint venture recently announced Xumo as the brand name for a feature-rich streaming video ecosystem. "Xumo will go-to-market with its first branded devices in late 2023, distributed by Comcast, Charter, and Walmart, with additional distributors to be announced in the future." Read the full story here.


Yes, will be interesting to see how much of the market Xumo can get versus the already-established smart TV/streaming app store platforms that already exist from Roku, Amazon, Samsung, Google, Apple, etc. They have a huge advantage in that Comcast and Charter together claim a majority of US home broadband customers. So they'll try to get those folks to use their streaming boxes that run Xumo. But they still have an uphill battle. Some had thought we might see Comcast buy Roku in order to immediately establish themselves as a leader in the space. But they're right to pivot in this direction because the future of video is apps as traditional cable TV fades away. So if you want to be a middle-man who gets a cut of subscription fees and ad revenue, you've got to have your own streaming platform/app store. I imagine we'll see them license Xumo out to smaller cable operators too, so that they have a turnkey way to get a slice of that revenue.


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## DaoFerret (Jan 3, 2018)

DBurstiner said:


> I only noticed one reference to OTA here although I didn't read every message. I use TiVo and a rural Tennessee. I'll use it for OTA only. Works fine. I have an outdoor antenna. I get all the main broadcast channels for free. That was the basis of TiVo when I first started with the original TV also many years ago. I ditched satellite TV cable isn't even available where I live. So I have streaming services and Starlink. I stream most content and some things that get only through the TiVo and it doesn't cost me anything because I bought two Bolts when they first came out and they had lifetime service. I do think it said that tivo DVRs are probably going to disappear because they were always the best. The cable companies could never get it right. And even the cable companies that adopted TiVos as their own DVR. They still didn't get it right.


I'm still chugging along doing OTA on my old Premier XL HD (on its second or third Hard Drive).
I keep debating about upgrading to a Bolt (or something newer, if thats an option).
How do you like it?
I hear OTA is about to go through another "evolution" to ATSC3.0 ( Over-the-Air TV Signals Bright Future ) so I'm hoping (fingers crossed) that TiVo MIGHT put out a new OTA model that supports this new standard.


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## andy7121 (Aug 11, 2017)

NashGuy said:


> Thanks. Charter Spectrum is anticipating changes to their network in some areas that may mean that CableCARD devices like TiVo DVRs will no longer work with their cable TV service.


Charter has done this already in St Louis. They disabled my cable card. Then they sent me one of their DVR's. What was inside? A cable card. So, cable cards still work, but they want to rent you one of their DVR's. This is a marketing decision, not a technical decision.

I sent the DVR back to them, canceled my cable subscription, and I am now using YouTube TV. I am not as happy as I was with Tivo, but space is not a problem, since all the recordings are kept on YTTV's server. I save some money, too.

In some parts of the country, Verizon is installing fiber optics to the premise. And they are supporting TIVO. Maybe someday they will get to St Louis. Then I might use my Tivo again. But, by then, my lifetime subscription might expire. Or I might expire. Or the horse will talk.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

andy7121 said:


> Charter has done this already in St Louis. They disabled my cable card. Then they sent me one of their DVR's. What was inside? A cable card. So, cable cards still work, but they want to rent you one of their DVR's. This is a marketing decision, not a technical decision.


Actually it is partly a technical decision. Their own boxes can handle alleged future changes, while retail TiVo boxes may not.









Is Spectrum killing TiVo support? Answer: It’s complicated


TiVo users received a message from Spectrum suggesting that CableCARD support is going away, but the cable company is light on specifics.




www.techhive.com


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## MrDell (Jul 8, 2012)

andy7121 said:


> In some parts of the country, Verizon is installing fiber optics to the premise. And they are supporting TIVO. Maybe someday they will get to St Louis. Then I might use my Tivo again.


Verizon has been here in Rhode Island for over 20 years competing with Cox Cable, and I think even Verizon sees the writing on the wall. They used to advertise aggressively for your cable business but now they only push their internet. I do agree that they are still on board supporting Tivo and cable cards, and their service is trouble free, but many people are now streaming and cutting the cord. There may come a time that it won't make sense for them to offer cable any longer. Only time will tell.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

andy7121 said:


> In some parts of the country, Verizon is installing fiber optics to the premise. And they are supporting TIVO. Maybe someday they will get to St Louis. Then I might use my Tivo again. But, by then, my lifetime subscription might expire. Or I might expire. Or the horse will talk.


Verizon, at least twice, came -->this<-- close to moving to pure IPTV, and has (in essence) stopped pushing FiOS TV as a product (their FiOS CSRs suggest YTTV first, and only sell FiOS TV if explicitly requested, along with the reality that fewer and fewer people want a TV package (from any provider)). Most observers think Verizon will stop offering FiOS TV soon enough (the revenue for Verizon is not a significant part of the business financials (unlike some other operators), and TV service (from any provider) is only minimally profitable (most of the revenue that comes in goes out to the content providers)), and the only reason the last IPTV conversion did not happen was because FiOS TV itself was on the way out.

Oh, and the latest Verizon ONTs for the fastest Internet service speeds do not support linear QAM TV service.

I am guessing Ed will be talking before Verizon offers QAM based linear FiOS TV in St. Louis.


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## drcos (Jul 20, 2001)

NashGuy said:


> ...the picture quality is much better through those apps than what you'd see on cable or even with an OTA antenna.


Cable, maybe. Better than OTA? 95% of the stuff on apps/streaming is nowhere close to the bandwidth of a good HD OTA channel. Not that every channel OTA uses all the available bandwidth, but we have a few that do and the picture quality is night and day.
Now Xfinity, who crushes everything (including 1080i OTA from CBS/NBC) down to 720p with low bitrates is a poor example of picture 'quality'...


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

nodollarapps said:


> They do have a cable card tech group......those guys actually know what they are doing and helped me out numerous times when the local tech did not have a clue.


Sure I know about their national support desk located in Buffalo, but my experience with them did not match yours. I had a TA problem and they scheduled a visit (by my local support of course) to replace the TA. When the local tech arrived he not only did not have a replacement TA, he didn’t know what one was and after calling someone he informed me that it was discontinued equipment! Fortunately, by the time he had arrived the TA problem had mysteriously disappeared. Which means the national desk had not properly diagnosed the problem to begin with.

My experience at all levels with TWC/Spectrum was terrible. They never had a clue about TiVo-related issues. Their business practices make a used car salesman look super ethical. And if you don’t get and save a receipt when you turn in their equipment they will come after you later claiming payment for it.


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## rhj (Nov 7, 2017)

I had been with Tivo for 20+ years until my OTA Roamio recently died. Tivo's lack of investment in ATSC 3.0 and other features caused me to finally ditch them in favor of Silicon Dust's HDHR Flex 4K solution. I don't use Channels, I simply plug a USB 3.0 storage device into my Flex 4K and use Silicon Dust's DVR solution ($35/year). The software is working well and overall I'm happy. TiVo software is better, but SD's software works good enough and the client apps are on all the platforms I care about - iOS, macOS, apple TV, LG Web OS. The one feature that is absolutely fantastic is ATSC 3.0 support...all of my recordings are higher quality and the OTA reception itself is even better than it was with Tivo....no more pixelated glitches.

Do I wish TiVo would have stayed the course and focussed on their OTA DVRs and added ATSC 3.0? Maybe even an OTA Cloud DVR? Yes. But they didn't and they likely won't. Unfortunately they bet the farm on streaming rather than their bread and butter. My guess is that I won't be the only one that ditches Tivo for the competition.


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## david.willis.tx (2 mo ago)

Curious of how to get the operating system on a new replacement hard drive of the Bolt and Edge? My drives seems to be corroupted. System just hangs when rebooting and no idea how to get past that. I bought a new drive for server function, but no way get whatever is needed for it to boot up.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

david.willis.tx said:


> Curious of how to get the operating system on a new replacement hard drive of the Bolt and Edge? My drives seems to be corroupted. System just hangs when rebooting and no idea how to get past that. I bought a new drive for server function, but no way get whatever is needed for it to boot up.


What is the model number of your drive? The drive needs to be a CMR drive. These two drives are known to work:
1TB Toshiba MQ01ABD100V available from Amazon $31
2TB Toshiba MQ03ABB200 available from Ebay through China $56

The operating system is located on a flash drive on the TiVo Bolt and Edge. It will automatically format and install on your new hard drive. Your problem may also be the wall wart power supply. 

You can check out the threads at TiVo Upgrade Center for more info.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

drcos said:


> Cable, maybe. Better than OTA? 95% of the stuff on apps/streaming is nowhere close to the bandwidth of a good HD OTA channel. Not that every channel OTA uses all the available bandwidth, but we have a few that do and the picture quality is night and day.
> Now Xfinity, who crushes everything (including 1080i OTA from CBS/NBC) down to 720p with low bitrates is a poor example of picture 'quality'...


Everything I see on Peacock looks better than the same shows on NBC via OTA. Everything I see on Hulu looks better than the same shows on ABC and Fox OTA. Same with CBS shows on Paramount+ (in which case a few of them actually stream in 4K). While OTA devotes more bandwidth, those stations are still encoding with an older codec versus the streaming apps. On-demand streaming looks better than OTA and way better than cable.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

NashGuy said:


> Everything I see on Peacock looks better than the same shows on NBC via OTA. Everything I see on Hulu looks better than the same shows on ABC and Fox OTA. Same with CBS shows on Paramount+ (in which case a few of them actually stream in 4K). While OTA devotes more bandwidth, those stations are still encoding with an older codec versus the streaming apps. On-demand streaming looks better than OTA and way better than cable.


Most OTA stations have chosen (or in the case for some O&O's been told) to use at least some of their bitrate for secondary channels (Fave TV and Start TV for CBS stations, equivalent for the others).

The PQ advantage of the OTAs (which did exist in many markets) has been eliminated by the business priorities of revenue (as anyone will tell you, it is always about the money).


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## rhj (Nov 7, 2017)

NashGuy said:


> Everything I see on Peacock looks better than the same shows on NBC via OTA. Everything I see on Hulu looks better than the same shows on ABC and Fox OTA. Same with CBS shows on Paramount+ (in which case a few of them actually stream in 4K). While OTA devotes more bandwidth, those stations are still encoding with an older codec versus the streaming apps. On-demand streaming looks better than OTA and way better than cable.


...likely until you get ATSC 3.0 with 1080p broadcasts and HEVC.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

CommunityMember said:


> Most OTA stations have chosen (or in the case for some O&O's been told) to use at least some of their bitrate for secondary channels (Fave TV and Start TV for CBS stations, equivalent for the others).
> 
> The PQ advantage of the OTAs (which did exist in many markets) has been eliminated by the business priorities of revenue (as anyone will tell you, it is always about the money).


Yeah, back at the dawn of HD, I do remember the OTA HD channels looking really pristine. But over time, just about every local station in the nation has crammed in a few diginets on their secondary channels, which has reduced the HD PQ on the main .1.




rhj said:


> ...likely until you get ATSC 3.0 with 1080p broadcasts and HEVC.


Jury is still very much out as to what level of support ATSC 3.0 will ever get from the broadcast networks. So far, almost none. But then, as of this year, it's estimated that only about 1.5% of all US TVs in use have an ATSC 3.0 tuner inside (and my guess is that most of those TVs aren't even using OTA). The ol' chicken-and-egg problem...


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## electrowiz64 (Aug 6, 2014)

Oh yes dealing with Spectrum was a nightmare. None of their splitters are compatible with MoCa, tech in South Carolina (off the coast) had absolutely ZERO knowledge of what a TiVo was & he was 50years old. Phone reps put the wrong numbers in & gave us the runaround. And the TiVo edge needs reboots once in a while because of a CableCARD error. And you know what? My Mother in Law refuses to give up her TiVo (that I bought them 2 years ago). I told her that her TiVo will stop working one day, doesn’t care. She’s had it in her old home (RCN provided).

2 providers. RCN & Service Electric in the Lehigh Valley, PA area and BOTH used TiVos as their DVRs. I believe TiVo is even providing them a whole IPTV infrastructure as well for them, TiVo lives on for sure


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

drweb said:


> On the cable card part, I had a Cox rep inside for an issue recently, he couldn't say enough that TiVo was dead, he couldn't touch the cable card, they had no new cards, TiVo is dying give it up. That's the kind of cable feedback you get about TiVo these days...
> 
> DrWeb


That’s always been cable TV’s attitude about TiVo. They’re just feeling more confident about expressing it publicly now.


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