# Slow Series II TiVo?



## jerryez (May 16, 2001)

Is TiVo going to fix the slow everything that the last update brought on. Or do they even admit they have screwed the TiVo up?

My TiVo's(i have two) are so slow on every screen that I sometimes push the button twice and really screw things up after waiting so long for the requested action. What is TiVo doing about it. I am ready to get a Dish DVR, from what I hear they are real fast, but have other minor problems.


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## Sandlapper (Oct 26, 2003)

I don't know if Tivo has admitted to the problem, but I'm sure they are aware of it. I wouldn't be surprised if it's fixed by the next update.


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## ObiWanJenkins (Dec 31, 2004)

jerryez said:


> Is TiVo going to fix the slow everything that the last update brought on. Or do they even admit they have screwed the TiVo up?
> 
> My TiVo's(i have two) are so slow on every screen that I sometimes push the button twice and really screw things up after waiting so long for the requested action. What is TiVo doing about it. I am ready to get a Dish DVR, from what I hear they are real fast, but have other minor problems.


I really don't understand this. I've always thought that the Tivo menus were slow, but no slower than my digital cable menus. I guess I'm one of the only ones this slowdown thing didn't affect.


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## naiLS1 (Aug 19, 2005)

Since I've had Tivo, there standard operating procedure seems to be denying problems like this exist, then fixing them with a new update later on. At least they fix them.


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## supasta (May 6, 2006)

Again, welcome to the 7.3 updates.

SEARCH for more info on the effects of this update on the S2 boxes.


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## alansplace (Apr 30, 2006)

ObiWanJenkins said:


> I really don't understand this. I've always thought that the Tivo menus were slow, but no slower than my digital cable menus. I guess I'm one of the only ones this slowdown thing did affect.


people's differing reactions are as they are because the slowdown effect of 7.3.1 is highly subjective.
--
Alan


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## ObiWanJenkins (Dec 31, 2004)

alansplace said:


> people's differing reactions are as they are because the slowdown effect of 7.3.1 is highly subjective.
> --
> Alan


Yes, I agree. Maybe I've had 7.3.1 too long to remember a faster menu, or maybe the slowdown isn't much slower than what I grew accustomed to before the update.


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## TiVo Mel (Jun 21, 2005)

Maybe this is the conspiracy theorist in me, but could Tivo have possibly loaded this slow program in order to get us to purchase the Series 3?


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

alansplace said:


> people's differing reactions are as they are because the slowdown effect of 7.3.1 is highly subjective.
> --
> Alan


Argh....every thread about the slowdown, someone makes the above comment. They seem to forget that it is KNOWN that certain model tivos experience the slowdown to a greater extent than others.


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## alansplace (Apr 30, 2006)

Stu_Bee said:


> Argh....every thread about the slowdown, someone makes the above comment. They seem to forget that it is KNOWN that certain model tivos experience the slowdown to a greater extent than others.


yep, my 540's are slower than my 649, so what, my statement is still valid.
--
Alan


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## TiVo Steve (Nov 8, 2005)

I've called TiVo customer support about the slowdown 3 times (over 2 months). Each rep that I talked to was "unaware of ANY" problems with the 7.3.1 update! I've started using my old Philips SA Series 1 unit as my main TiVo.
*****ing about it in this forum seems to have done nothing towards getting the problem fixed. Neither has calling TiVo...

The Comcast box is actually starting to _not look so bad_.... (never thought I would say that!)


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## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

Me and the wife watched regualr cable through the tv rather than the tivo and it just reminded us how dreadfully slow the tivo is.

Really hope there is a fix soon.


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## slevdog (Sep 26, 2006)

Everybody: Write a letter to TiVo's corporate office, explain your problem, pressure for a patch, and ask for a month credit. I did the above, and receieved a phone call from TiVo today and receieved a 1 month credit on my bill. They didn't say anything about the patch, but the more pressure, and the more credits they give away, the better, and hopefully, the quicker.


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## ObiWanJenkins (Dec 31, 2004)

slevdog said:


> Everybody: Write a letter to TiVo's corporate office, explain your problem, pressure for a patch, and ask for a month credit. I did the above, and receieved a phone call from TiVo today and receieved a 1 month credit on my bill. They didn't say anything about the patch, but the more pressure, and the more credits they give away, the better, and hopefully, the quicker.


The corporate address is: 2160 Gold Street P.O. Box 2160 Alviso, CA 95002-2160?


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## robbins (Aug 23, 2005)

Our Tivo slowed WAY down after the update and we called and Tivo said they had never heard of such a thing happening. We cancelled and went with a satellite DVR and not only is it cheaper, it's faster and it's better.


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

jerryez said:


> I am ready to get a Dish DVR, from what I hear they are real fast, but have other minor problems.


I wouldn't recommend this. :down:


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## jerryez (May 16, 2001)

Why not? Be specific!


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

The slowdown is noticeable on my Humax 540, but I'm actually more ticked about the needless changes in the user interface.


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## robbins (Aug 23, 2005)

maki said:


> I wouldn't recommend this. :down:


I've heard excellent things about the Dish DVR's.


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## JasonD (Mar 30, 2003)

Didn't Dish TV lose a lawsuit for ripping off Tivo? Also talk about lousy service. My friends couldn't even get Dish to come out and commit to an install date. Got fed up purchased Tivo and haven't looked back since.

Talk about the slowness its almost like there is a memory leak going on in this new update.

Jason


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## bstime (Dec 3, 2004)

put me in the SLOW boat. 2 s2 540's . generally MUCH slower than before. in some cases unusable and have to be turned off. Sometimes when they are back on they are great, sometimes not. Certainly points to some type of memory leak that kills the machine over time. no guide, no tivo now playing list at times. just awful. and no way to add RAM to the machine which we all know would make the problem either go away or much better. Why do they tell us to buy a new Tivo? Becasue the later models have more memory from what I have read.

What Tivo is missing is simply this: Do they really think I am going to want their software on a Comcast box? Heck, their SOFTWARE is the major source of all my problems over the past 2 years. Yes it's the best user interface for a DVR..but that value is not worth the aggravation of these problems that are noticeable by my kids and my wife to the point they are willing to switch a a comcast box.

Oh yes, and when I reported it to Tivo I did complain my way to a one month credit. But I highly doubt they will have anything out the door to fix the problem within that month and they of course admitted nothing and claimed it was either a perception issue on my part or a hardware failure (yeah right 2 boxes have bad hard drives at the exact same time at the exact moment they upgrade the software...og and that happended for all of us here right?)

Lastly, I explained to them that I am a Comcast customer..and that the problems and treatment I had experienced made me want to tell Comcast to seriously re-consider the partnership. So that is my suggestion. Anyone who is a Comcast customer needs to contact them and WARN them about the issues. Comcast can get Tivo to pay attention to problems. I highly doubt we can other than getting a month's credit and a nifty messenger bag..ooh gee do i get a ti-shirt I can wax my car with too?

I think I am gonna let the kids blow up the Tivo's in the backyard.


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## custer (Jul 19, 2005)

bstime said:


> put me in the SLOW boat. 2 s2 540's . generally MUCH slower than before. in some cases unusable and have to be turned off.


I have THREE series 2's here - they work ok for abotu the first dozen clicks and then slow down to a crawl or even to a stop. The tivo hs become essentially useless under these conditions - I can't make it work.

I'm about ready to cancel the service and scrap the units for parts as they all have huge hard drives in them and the boxes are essentially useless to me like this.


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## magnumis (Jan 6, 2005)

My HUMAX DRT800 is really slow. It takes a few seconds before the guide will display.


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## bstime (Dec 3, 2004)

It's really all about customer service...BAD customer service. Tivo hides everything. Cannot turn out a release of software that does not break stuff (anyone heard or backwards compatible? oops...perhaps you used to work at Microsoft so they never told you about that.......) 

It's just ridiculous. they had issues with pixelization with cable boxes and it tooks motnhs for that to get resolved. Now this.

How this should have gone:
Me: Hello Tivo. Your software update has killed my machines (again). here are all the details....

Tivo: Thank you Mr. Customer. We are aware of the problem. We are working on a fix. We will credit you one months service automatically and we are offering you the option to revert back to the previous release until the problems are fixed. The 540 S2 you have is known to be prone to these issues as they have less memory than later units. We can also offer you a swap for the same unit same size hard drive with more RAM or a discount on these other models which are less prone to the problem......

Me. Thank you Tivo. You really do care about your customers satisfaction.

=====================
NOW IT REALLY WENT:

Me: Hello Tivo. Your software update has killed my machines. here are all the details....

Tivorep #1: Well Mr. Customer we're hoing to have an update out in a month or less. Sorry
Me: What can Tivo do to make me happy
Tivorep #1: I can let you speak to a supervisor


Tivo Supervisor: Well Mr. Customer the first rep was wrong. We have no problems It works fine. When you say slow perhaps it's a perception issue...all software does not have an immediate response......let me explain it to you...

Me: Please spare me a lecture about computers. I sell software for a living. 

Tivo Supervisor: Well Mr. customer. .sounds like your machines have bad hardware. There aren't any problems we know of and the internt forums you mentioned are not relative to the conversation. I can offer you the same exact machines on a swap for $150 each

Me: Gee thanks...newer 80 hour DT machines cost less than that.
Tivo Supervisor: well I can credit you one months service that should get you through to the phantom update that rep#1 mentioned but i am telling you there is no such thing. I do understand the psychological impact of the issues you perceive. perhaps things are not really as slow as they seem....
Me: thank you for the credit. Please be aware i am a comcast customer. If you can;t fix my machines I will beg them to forget about using your software. Then you'll break all dvr's


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## EwanG (Oct 14, 2002)

OK, I'm burned by the slowness of the response also. Thank goodness for the "Recently Deleted" folder or I'd probably be even more up in arms about this - I never know when I'm deleting a number of shows using the clear button when it will decide to catch up and jump ahead on me...

That said, given the other options out there, I have a hard time seeing that leaving Tivo is the answer. The couple cable boxes I've tried weren't much fun, and none of them seemed to support my backing programs off to my computer, or letting me put my home movies on them.

As for items like iTV or XBMC, that works fine for playback, but then there's the whole recording issue...

Of course, one could always just DL the latest shows off the internet, but that gets into a whole lot of processing or post processing to get them ready to stream to one of the other devices.

So, I live with the slowness on my two Series 2s, and am just happy that at least I got them with lifetime so I don't feel like a bad month is a hit to my pocketbook...

My .02 worth,
Ewan


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## Rooster (Oct 21, 2002)

I have 2 series 2 machines, both super slow. I'll press the TiVo button and it'll take between 5 and 10 seconds to respond. It's not just me, my wife has commented on how we might need to change the batteries in the remote because it's going so slow. There are times where I instinctively press the button again because I figure I missed the button the first time and then I end up doing it twice. Going to Now Playing, bringing up the guide, bringing up the info screens, and the end of program delete message are all the most common problems with this slowdown. 

I'm to the point where I'm 90% sure I won't be a TiVo customer after these machines die. I'm half contemplating selling my lifetime unit on Ebay and going with the Time Warner DVR in the near future instead of waiting for them to die. I love my TiVo and I hate having to resort to a box with less features, but I refuse to pay a premium for the TiVo product when I can't expect that they'll fix (or even acknowlege) bugs that are this serious. For a company that is trying to grow by selling a premium product, they sure seem to be taking the wrong path by putting out poor quality updates and alienating long time users.


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## monkeybutler (Oct 27, 2002)

EwanG said:


> OK, I'm burned by the slowness of the response also. Thank goodness for the "Recently Deleted" folder or I'd probably be even more up in arms about this - I never know when I'm deleting a number of shows using the clear button when it will decide to catch up and jump ahead on me...


exactly. mix in the horrible suggestions "improvements" with the progressively laggy controls and i'm constantly deleting the wrong shows due to the incredible slowdown.

and my newest problem is freezing. i havent had to reboot in a year, but in the last 2 days ive been frozen twice and also have lost the tv guide for about 15 minutes once. things are getting worse and its getting annoying.


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## elbarono (Oct 5, 2004)

It's really getting ridiculous. Both of my Series2's are so slow to the point that they are almost unusable. Tivo better fix this soon.


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## JimmyP (Sep 30, 2006)

Wow...I was afraid I was the only one to have this problem. I do not keep track of all the updates or when the patches are applied, but after experiencing the slowness for a couple of weeks now I came to the boards to search and see if there were others who had this problem.

Does Tivo have a typical release schedule? I purchased a lifetime account, so there really isn't compensation I can get from Tivo (re: one month's credit).

I don't want have the crap that they've loaded on, (like the games, the Yahoo picture interface, the Fantasy Football interface etc.), perhaps if they let us manage the loaded apps we could remove some and speed things up


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## krypdo (Sep 13, 2001)

FWIW, I got the updates back in July thru the priority sign-up list, my 2 540s slowed to a halt with symptoms of dying harddrive (freezing, reboots, macroblocking, you name it), especially the one with an added 250gb drive. After about 6 weeks of frustration of trying to find the cause, the machines have "healed" themselves. Now both machines are enjoyable, albeit still slower than before. I still don't know what happened, but folks, give it some time.

TiVo has drugged my household so bad that we just can't quit TiVo.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

JimmyP said:


> I don't want have the crap that they've loaded on, (like the games, the Yahoo picture interface, the Fantasy Football interface etc.), perhaps if they let us manage the loaded apps we could remove some and speed things up


For what it's worth, the "loaded" apps are accessed via a web interface. I don't think much gets installed on the TiVo other than a rendering engine of some sort (possibly already used by the basic GUI) and a means to access and execute code obtained over the broadband connection.

If you go to http://www.apps.tv/ and follow the instructions there you can access additional web-served applications that are about as useful as what TiVo "loads" (WordGrid is addictive, however. Forewarned is forearmed). I think the default apps work the same way. also note that the SI application arrived independent of a firmware udpate being served to the machine.

Also, the mojority of the default apps existed a revision or two before the slowdown began. The only new app of which I'm aware is KidZone (but I haven't activated that on mine).


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## cajun100 (Oct 5, 2006)

Tivo user since 1999. Presently with two Series 2 (140060) upgraded boxes that performed flawlessly all this time -- until the last two software updates. Same old symptoms:

- buttons requiring more than one push to work
- slow response of guide, channel change, banner erase, etc.
- CANNOT select channel 200 (CNN for us) from guide or by number pad from a screen -- ALWAYS produces "20" and throws us to Dish Info Channel 101. Often cannot select any other channel without same result. Changing to DISH remote and guide produces instant responses.

Recording changes, thanks, are still working.

Have done all the usual diagnostics, resets, and so forth. 

I give Tivo another 6 months and we dump the whole thing and start warning people via larger audience blogs. This is very unacceptable.


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## Torino (Oct 5, 2006)

This may help. In the new version tivo saves the deleted shows in a folder at the end of your now playing list. I deleted all of the shows that where in the folder and now my tivo is much faster. Sort of like cleaning up your hard drive.


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## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

another voice, re slowness of response in my S2 since the latest update. i also have the problem of pressing the button again because i just can't believe the first press registered. it's not responding as it used to - far from it.

this is really annoying and i wish there were a tivo rep here responding to this complaint. perhaps there has been and i need to go back to other threads and check...


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## chipwood (Apr 18, 2002)

Interestingly, I was eperiencing major slowdowns on 7.3.1... but a week or so ago I upgraded from my old drive to a larger one... and the slowdowns went away completely! Just curious, has anyone determined for sure the cause of the slowdown (e.g. are drive type and/or swap size a factor), or has it all been speculation at this point?


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## supasta (May 6, 2006)

chipwood said:


> Interestingly, I was eperiencing major slowdowns on 7.3.1... but a week or so ago I upgraded from my old drive to a larger one... and the slowdowns went away completely! Just curious, has anyone determined for sure the cause of the slowdown (e.g. are drive type and/or swap size a factor), or has it all been speculation at this point?


Well, being that the majority of complaints are coming from those with stock HDDs, that seemingly has nothing to do with the problems.

Did you use an old PRE 7.3.1 image to do your upgrade?


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## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

MIne is a stock 40 hr with the "slowdown" issue.


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## alansplace (Apr 30, 2006)

supasta said:


> Well, being that the majority of complaints are coming from those with stock HDDs, that seemingly has nothing to do with the problems.
> 
> Did you use an old PRE 7.3.1 image to do your upgrade?





2004raptor said:


> MIne is a stock 40 hr with the "slowdown" issue.


i just tried something that appeared to help, but not solve the slowdown on my two 540040s. see this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4454815#post4454815 
--
Alan


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## chipwood (Apr 18, 2002)

supasta said:


> Well, being that the majority of complaints are coming from those with stock HDDs, that seemingly has nothing to do with the problems.


????? That's exactly what I'm saying... slowdown with original stock drive, no such slowdown with new drive.



supasta said:


> Did you use an old PRE 7.3.1 image to do your upgrade?


No, I used the 7.3.1 image from the box I upgraded. Copied all recordings too. Major slowdown before the upgrade, nice snappy reponse afterward.


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## Traal (Jul 8, 2002)

A couple of years ago (long before 7.3.1), I replaced the stock drive in my S2 with a Seagate. But I'm seeing the slowdown issue.


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## jlc4 (Apr 2, 2006)

chipwood said:


> Interestingly, I was eperiencing major slowdowns on 7.3.1... but a week or so ago I upgraded from my old drive to a larger one... and the slowdowns went away completely!


Could it be the size of the old drive's versus new drive's cache? Or maybe the process of copying stuff over also defragmented all your files along the way? Either of these would explain a performance improvement.


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## angra (Apr 12, 2002)

I wonder if it has any correlation to lifetime versus paying subscriber?

I'm a lifer and my S2SA is nearly useless for slowness. Tivo certainly has _very_ little incentive to make me happy.


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

angra said:


> I wonder if it has any correlation to lifetime versus paying subscriber?
> 
> I'm a lifer and my S2SA is nearly useless for slowness. Tivo certainly has _very_ little incentive to make me happy.


TiVo still has incentive to keep you happy (or at least only slightly content) because they'll want to sell you TiVo-branded upgrades in the future as well as additional TiVo units.

As for the correlation, definetly none exists. I'm a monthly subscriber and have also been experiencing this slow-down on my series 2 TiVo unit.

This new, additional lag is caused by TiVo's last major system update. I can be 100% certain of this because I compared the updated system to an old image on my TiVo's dual-HDD system before the update (yes, I hack my TiVo). I had to make sure that it had no internet (or phone) connection to get the TiVo update once I restored it. I compared the time it takes to navigate through menus and the difference is literally multiple seconds.

The *worst* lag difference may be observed when exiting either a recording playback or LiveTV (ie: going to a menu). The lag difference here can be up to 6 seconds on mine. That's absurd.

Time for my personal rant [rant=on] 

Even though I despise this lag, I still keep my TiVo because my family is now used to it. However, I now run a MYthTV PC on ubuntu Linux and am much happier since I have more control and less laaaaagggg (pssst: MythTV can automatically remove commercials from recordings and get schedule updates for free).

Taking this free PVR route like MythTV is a viable option for any Linux geek, but this software (and Freevo) is an unbelievable nightmare to install and configure unless you happen to be a Linux guru or well-trained system admin. The free GB-PVR software for Windows is easier, but no where near as simple to use on a daily basis as TiVo.

I hope TiVo will fix this lag issue (and give an option to *DELETE RECORDINGS PERMANENTLY* in one button press) before us MythTV, Freevo, and GB-PVR users decide to ditch TiVo for good. The only thing stopping me from ditching TiVo for a free PVR setup is spending hours teaching my family how to use MythTV.

[rant=off] 

TiVo, be warned that until the lag issue is fixed, you walk a fine line with free PVR users who are also TiVo subscribers.


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## Todd Zilla (Oct 11, 2006)

It all happened after the "Kid Zone" download! I have NO kids & NO desire to use that function, but now I have to suffer the very slow & almost unresponsiveness for an update that is not needed or wanted?? Thanks & I think I need a condom for future updates...


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## DavidSTiVo (Jul 23, 2001)

My TiVo 
is ver y

v ery 

slooooooooooooo wwww 

too.

See TiVo, this problem IS annoying and MANY of us have it. Kinda silly that CSR's still deny the problem. 

I have been a customer since 2001 when I got my Series 1 Sony 30 hour TiVo. I REALLY miss that software, it ran so smooth sometimes the TiVo was working faster than I could think! 

Now, I have 2 standalone Series 2 TiVo's and one Humax DRT800 Series 2. ALL THREE ARE HORRIBLY SLOW! 10+ seconds for the guide to appear?!???!?!?! TiVo's halo effect is wearing away very fast for me.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

chipwood said:


> Interestingly, I was eperiencing major slowdowns on 7.3.1... but a week or so ago I upgraded from my old drive to a larger one... and the slowdowns went away completely! Just curious, has anyone determined for sure the cause of the slowdown (e.g. are drive type and/or swap size a factor), or has it all been speculation at this point?


I think one of the issues could well be a fragmented drive or some corruption in the file system that is cleaned up with an upgrade procedure. Could also be a performance issue in some batch of hard drives that is of course gone when you change the drive out. Since the slowdown does not happen on every DVR it is very likely some new update - specific hardware interaction causing the problem

if i had a slow TiVo this is one of the first things I would do to try and resolve it.


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## rockhome (Dec 21, 2005)

I've wondered for a while whether this really TiVo's issue.

I have what was originally an 80 hour unit that I bumped to about 270 hours. I have wondered if the upgradde has something to do with how the TiVo porcesses information and, with so many recordings, does some DB process or something take over.

Of course, this is something that hopefully TiVo might address with the S3, but they can make an argument that they didn't design it for 300+ hours and the slowdowns are a result of that.

Of course, if people who did not upgrade their 80-hour units also have the problem, my point is moot.


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## DavidSTiVo (Jul 23, 2001)

rockhome said:


> Of course, if people who did not upgrade their 80-hour units also have the problem, my point is moot.


Doesn't seem to be upgrade related, I have 3 stock TiVo's (40, 80 and a 120) that are all VERY slow (e.g., 10 seconds for the guide, 3 seconds for one page of Now Playing to generate).


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

rockhome said:


> Of course, if people who did not upgrade their 80-hour units also have the problem, my point is moot.


Your point is moot. 

3 non-upgraded series 2 units here with performance in the toilet due to 7.3.1

Roy


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## Sasparilla (Dec 10, 2003)

I just called Tivo customer service and the rep immediately new the problem I was describing - I was giving her the symptoms and she said, something to the effect of "Yes the TiVo is slowing down...". She mentioned they were getting lots of calls on this and that its happening to alot of the users.

She also said that they were working a patch release to fix the issue, but didn't know when it would be out.

Don't know how good this is...but at least they aren't denying it exists anymore.

I encourage anyone who hasn't called to do so - make the voices as many as possible. Here's the number for TiVo manufactured (not DirectTV TiVo's) boxes:

Live agent support available: Monday - Sunday
7:00 AM - 8:00 PM Pacific
Phone number: 877-367-8486

I've got a 240 and its bad when I'm watching a show and try and go back to the information screen (left press of the round button at the top of the TiVo remote), 5 seconds or more before a response alot of times.


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## nvaughan3 (May 11, 2006)

Sasparilla said:


> I just called Tivo customer service and the rep immediately new the problem I was describing - I was giving her the symptoms and she said, something to the effect of "Yes the TiVo is slowing down...". She mentioned they were getting lots of calls on this and that its happening to alot of the users.
> 
> She also said that they were working a patch release to fix the issue, but didn't know when it would be out.
> 
> ...


thanks, just called them. he asked a bunch of questions about seasons passes and told me I could clear them to speed things up. After I mentioned the forums and said I know I'm not the only one, he said, "yeah, I've heard of that".

Currently waiting for a supervisor to see if they have knowledge of a fix date..


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## nvaughan3 (May 11, 2006)

Sup. said some of the issues have already been fixed (maybe he was talking S3 issues?)...but admitted there was an issue and that they were working on it.

Very nice guy.


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## Sasparilla (Dec 10, 2003)

nvaughan3 said:


> thanks, just called them. he asked a bunch of questions about seasons passes and told me I could clear them to speed things up.


That's interesting about the Season Passes...My wife and I have 45 of them on our 240. I wonder if anyone has dropped a significant amount and seen results?

You folks with 5xx and 2xx machines not affected by the slowness, how many Season Passes do you have on those?


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## Bimwad (Jul 4, 2005)

As some have already speculated, something deep within the TiVo sofware is likely at fault.

The sluggishness is akin to a hidden process run amok and hogging processor cycles, or a memory leak of some kind.

I have a partially full, lightly used, stock Toshiba DVD machine running in Basic mode. The hard drive is mostly filled with recordings that predate the 7.3 update, and a handful of newer programs since then. No season passes. No suggestions. It's a dumb digital VCR. And it still runs slow. The DVD machines already lagged in performance compared to the SA units. Imagine how bad it is now.

Recently, the slowdown got so bad, I had to reboot it, which restored it to merely awful. A few days later, I noticed it had lost contact with the wireless adapter that had worked flawlessly since the day it was hooked up. Another reboot restored the connection. This machine was rock solid until 7.3.

I don't know who is directly responsible for the development and QC testing for 7.3, but those people should be ashamed that software of such poor quality was released to users.


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## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

Bimwad said:


> As some have already speculated, something deep within the TiVo sofware is likely at fault.
> 
> The sluggishness is akin to a hidden process run amok and hogging processor cycles, or a memory leak of some kind.
> 
> ...


My 540 tivo has recently statred disappearing from my network. At first I just rebooted it and all was fine. Last night all i did was tell it to connect to the network through the settings and that worked. I didn't want to put the blame on the recent update but it did start doing this not long after. The slowdown happened directly after the update.

And I only have maybe 3 or 4 active season passes at the most. Then I have maybe 4 more that are not active.


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## TiVo Steve (Nov 8, 2005)

didn't help either. I just wasted a few hours setting everything back up on my SVR-3000! (12 SP's)


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## DavidSTiVo (Jul 23, 2001)

Bimwad said:


> As some have already speculated, something deep within the TiVo sofware is likely at fault....
> I don't know who is directly responsible for the development and QC testing for 7.3, but those people should be ashamed that software of such poor quality was released to users.


I agree!

For the next software version, I'd like to see a letter in TiVo central that says:

"*Good News! We've just updated your TiVo with the Winter 2007 update!
Unlike our previous updates, there are no new features to report; however, you'll notice that features that should have been working over the past couple of years now work fast and reliably!*"


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## alansplace (Apr 30, 2006)

DavidSTiVo said:


> "*Good News! We've just updated your TiVo with the Winter 2007 update!
> Unlike our previous updates, there are no new features to report; however, you'll notice that features that should have been working over the past couple of years now work fast and reliably!*"


i gotta' agree
--
Alan


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## loganizzi (Aug 9, 2003)

My Series 2 has been performing sluggishly over the past several weeks. This has been seen in all aspects of my TiVo - menu navigation, fast forwarding, going from Live TV back to the menu, etc. 

Yesterday when I came home from work and turned on my TiVo I noticed that the TiVo splash video started playing (as it does after the system has been rebooted). No one had restarted the system that day, and I did not detect a recent update to the software that might have caused a restart, however the performance of my TiVo has dramatically improved from where it was the previous day. 

I have no idea why, and it definitely is not my imagination since the performance was consistantly poor before and is consistantly good now. 

Nothing had changed on the user config side (i.e. season passes, KidZone, # of recorded shows, etc.)

p.s. my version # has NOT changed from 7.3.1


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## RTstratSpring (Feb 11, 2004)

I also noticed the splash window as if the system had been rebooted after
an update. Was not able to spend much time to see if system response was
improved. 

:up: I'm keeping the fingers crossed!


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## angra (Apr 12, 2002)

reports have generally come in that rebooting helps performance for the broken software version, but only temporarily, generally.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

angra said:


> reports have generally come in that rebooting helps performance for the broken software version, but only temporarily, generally.


yah - it could have been some kind of memory leak and the resources got used up to the point the TiVo rebooted and works better since the resources are reset


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

Sasparilla said:


> I just called Tivo customer service and the rep immediately new the problem I was describing - I was giving her the symptoms and she said, something to the effect of "Yes the TiVo is slowing down...". She mentioned they were getting lots of calls on this and that its happening to alot of the users.


That is really good to know! Now that they understand there's a problem, we'll have to wait for a fix that should have been already released. *sigh* I wonder what TiVo's turn-around is measured in for serious bugs? Months? That's even worse than Microsoft's measurement of weeks, and Microsoft is the slowest in their own software business.



ZeoTiVo said:


> angra said:
> 
> 
> > reports have generally come in that rebooting helps performance for the broken software version, but only temporarily, generally.
> ...


This isn't a fix, in case any TiVo reps try to claim it as such. Possible causes could be related to poor software design of the newest version only visible when user's add more wishlists, etc., or buggy code that causes memory leaks. I would tend to lean more towards memory leaks, because I've tried my series II both with an older version of TiVo's software (using a ghost-like image) and with a new version. I noticed the slowdown of the new version within minutes.

BTW, I usually have 20-30 season passes.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cipher_nemo said:


> That is really good to know! Now that they understand there's a problem, we'll have to wait for a fix that should have been already released. *sigh* I wonder what TiVo's turn-around is measured in for serious bugs? Months? That's even worse than Microsoft's measurement of weeks, and Microsoft is the slowest in their own software business.


 they have known about and acknowledged the problem long before the call to the CSR. Being that the fix will go out to all boxes as an update- TiVo does not tend to release them in a slap-dash fashion as that just opens up the door to more problems. This does nto sound like some easily indentified - oh look at line 458 - there is a typo - kind of bug and the fix will take a good bit of analyzing, tweaking and testing. I am confident that is already underway the same as happened with 7.2.1.



> This isn't a fix, in case any TiVo reps try to claim it as such. Possible causes could be related to poor software design of the newest version only visible when user's add more wishlists, etc., or buggy code that causes memory leaks. I would tend to lean more towards memory leaks, because I've tried my series II both with an older version of TiVo's software (using a ghost-like image) and with a new version. I noticed the slowdown of the new version within minutes.
> 
> BTW, I usually have 20-30 season passes.


I have more than 30 and got lucky and do not have the problem. Have not seen a pattern yet that points to any one thing. In any case periodic rebooting will never be seen as a long term fix by TiVo.


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## bkane (Aug 30, 2006)

Anyone having USB wireless network adapter issues? My TiVo will use my adapter for about 24 hours and then it wont work. Gives me an error 83 when attempting to load the network and phone screen. I have to either restart my TiVo or unplug and plug my adapter and then I get another 24 hours. This only started happening with 7.3.1. Never had a single problem with this on 7.2.2 and im not sure if my TiVo ever even had 7.3. 

Just wanted to see if anyone else had this problem. Thanks. 

-Ben


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

angra said:


> I wonder if it has any correlation to lifetime versus paying subscriber?


nope. I've got one on lifetime and one on monthly and they both suck :down:

I loathe using the S2 Tivo menu's now 

I'm slowly setting my S1 up to record my favorite shows and using my S2's less and less - which really stinks.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

cipher_nemo said:


> (and give an option to *DELETE RECORDINGS PERMANENTLY* in one button press)


Ok, I have to ask - why? What does it matter?

Trying to make it easier to hide the pr0n from the wife?

It's like the people who get all twisted up about suggestions being recorded and deleted automatically based on available space....


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

DocNo said:


> Ok, I have to ask - why? What does it matter?
> Trying to make it easier to hide the pr0n from the wife?


I get extended cable. I'm not married, and I don't watch porn on TV. Bad joke at my expense.



DocNo said:


> It's like the people who get all twisted up about suggestions being recorded and deleted automatically based on available space....


Yes, I like control over what I do with my TiVo. I don't like someone telling me I can't change something, or I must do something a specific way (like having to press my remote's buttons a minimum of 8 times to permanently delete a recording after watching it).

This is why I run Linux. This is why I use my MythTv media center more than my TiVo. This is why I write code for a living instead of something else. I like control when it comes to PCs, and I'm not about to sit back and let someone else, like TiVo, dictate to me how to use a PVR.

You might be happy with mediocracy and people telling you what should make you happy with your PVR. There's nothing specifically wrong with that until you expect everyone else to think and feel as you do.

I understand reasons why people don't mind it. That's fine. There are plenty of other things in life I could care less about either way - such as my washer and dryer, or what my friends and family want for dinner on any given night.

However, there are billions of people in the world who are very adamant about specific things in their life, such as PVRs. If you can't understand that, than you are narrow-minded and inward-focused.

Now, with that said, DocNo, I don't intend my words to be an attack against you, but rather a harsh response to your words posted. Please understand that people have different PVR preferences than you, and some people (like me) are very adamant about them.

I hope that clears things up for you because I'm tired of people casually brushing off topics and specifics that are important to other people. If you don't care about this feature of TiVo, then why post in response to it?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cipher_nemo said:


> Yes, I like control over what I do with my TiVo. I don't like someone telling me I can't change something, or I must do something a specific way (like having to press my remote's buttons a minimum of 8 times to permanently delete a recording after watching it).


 ok, that is all well and good. so why do you feel you need to clean out recently deleted ? Let them roll off on their own due to good programming that ensures what is in recently deleted has no effect whatsoever on your future recordings or even on optional suggestions.


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## TivoZorro (Jul 16, 2000)

I have been cleaning out the recently deleted folder on my 540 because it speeds up the performance of the unit. I deleed 70 recordings out of there yesterday and I could tell that it speeded up. I have 212 plus recordings in My Now Playing List which will only grow with the TV Season. So until Tivo fixes the software I will continue to do this. I've also had the frozen transfers and the occassional reboots. It seems as if the fuller the Tivo gets the slower it becomes.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

TivoZorro said:


> I have been cleaning out the recently deleted folder on my 540 because it speeds up the performance of the unit. I deleed 70 recordings out of there yesterday and I could tell that it speeded up. I have 212 plus recordings in My Now Playing List which will only grow with the TV Season. So until Tivo fixes the software I will continue to do this. I've also had the frozen transfers and the occassional reboots. It seems as if the fuller the Tivo gets the slower it becomes.


 You do realize that when you "permanently delete" them that they're not really gone? It just makes it so that they can no longer be seen, by changing a flag in the file, but they're still very much there until the TiVo needs the space to record something else...

I'm wondering if this isn't just a placebo effect in you thinking it actually improves performance...


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

mchips said:


> You do realize that when you "permanently delete" them that they're not really gone? It just makes it so that they can no longer be seen, by changing a flag in the file, but they're still very much there until the TiVo needs the space to record something else...
> 
> I'm wondering if this isn't just a placebo effect in you thinking it actually improves performance...


Actually, thats not entirely true. The links to the files are gone. I.e. it doesn't have to build those items into the Now Playing list when it displays. I don't think this slows down the TiVo in general, but i can verify that lots of Now Playing list items can make NP extremely slow to load and can result in a blank NP list that can be fixed by toggling the "selected" item using up/down.

Before 7.3.x, the Now Playing list loaded extremely fast. Of course the more items it had the slower it loaded. But I can say for sure that it is much slower loading now and has serious display issues if you try to use page down/up on large lists.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

rainwater said:


> Actually, thats not entirely true. The links to the files are gone. I.e. it doesn't have to build those items into the Now Playing list when it displays. I don't think this slows down the TiVo in general...


 The point is that the recordings are still there, no matter what you believe may be happening behind the scenes, and could be recovered if someone has the know-how, and nothing is really gained by clearing them out... the NPL does not have to display them all; it's just one folder that gets displayed in the NPL, and unless people are going into the Recently Deleted folder and scrolling through that list, it really shouldn't make that much difference... so, at least we agree that the Recently Delete folder does not really slow the TiVo down in general...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

rainwater said:


> Actually, thats not entirely true. The links to the files are gone. I.e. it doesn't have to build those items into the Now Playing list when it displays. I don't think this slows down the TiVo in general, but i can verify that lots of Now Playing list items can make NP extremely slow to load and can result in a blank NP list that can be fixed by toggling the "selected" item using up/down.
> 
> Before 7.3.x, the Now Playing list loaded extremely fast. Of course the more items it had the slower it loaded. But I can say for sure that it is much slower loading now and has serious display issues if you try to use page down/up on large lists.


I get a little of that percormance efect myself, but not to any great extenet since overall my TiVo is doing alright speed wise. I have a 500gig drive with 250 shows in nowplaying (counting suggestions) and as high as 40 in recently deleted.
This looks to be another symptom of overall slowness glitch rather than any root cause.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I get a little of that percormance efect myself, but not to any great extenet since overall my TiVo is doing alright speed wise. I have a 500gig drive with 250 shows in nowplaying (counting suggestions) and as high as 40 in recently deleted.
> This looks to be another symptom of overall slowness glitch rather than any root cause.


Add me to the list of those who note a bit of a performance lift after emptying the deleted folder...

Got a lot more after restarting (after emptying the folder). Was pretty good for a day or two but is now gradually slowing back down again......
Roy


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

mchips said:


> The point is that the recordings are still there, no matter what you believe may be happening behind the scenes, and could be recovered if someone has the know-how, and nothing is really gained by clearing them out...


I never said they didn't exist in the backend. However, we are talking about UI drawing. If you have folders on, the load time is affected by how many items are in every group because it has to build the list (and when you have a lot of recordings you can see this visibly take place). The less items you have in your folders including the deleted items folder, the faster the UI will display Now Playing list. This has been the case ever since folders were introduced AFAIK.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

rainwater said:


> I never said they didn't exist in the backend. However, we are talking about UI drawing. If you have folders on, the load time is affected by how many items are in every group because it has to build the list (and when you have a lot of recordings you can see this visibly take place). The less items you have in your folders including the deleted items folder, the faster the UI will display Now Playing list. This has been the case ever since folders were introduced AFAIK.


 I disagree, and feel you're doing a disservice in trying to make people believe that they need to clear out the Recently Deleted folder to improve performance... it isn't true...

But, the mind is a powerful thing, hence the placebo effect... if people believe it helps, then I guess that's all that really matters...

Btw, all I was talking about was the Recently Deleted folder's effect on the performance issue, but you seem to be arguing with me about everything else in the NPL... so, since you keep bringing it up, yes, it's common sense that the more that's in the NPL, the more the TiVo has to do, and thus the more time it would take... But it actually slows the NPL display down a tad bit when groups are OFF than when they are ON, if there are numerous items in the NPL... when they're on, there's less for TiVo to have to display... so, I agree that it's affected when groups are on, but it's actually faster when groups are on... the Recently Deleted folder always stays in a group, and therefore it pops up very quickly on my TiVo's, with groups on or off, and with well over 100 items...


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

mchips said:


> I disagree, and feel you're doing a disservice in trying to make people believe that they need to clear out the Recently Deleted folder to improve performance... it isn't true...


Did you read my posts? I specifically said this affected the Now Playing list load time and not overall performance. The reason it is even an issue is because the overall performance in 7.3.1 is slower, so the affect on the Now Playing list loading is more visible. Having a lot of items in NP also results in a blank screen very easily when trying to scroll a the list. These are facts, not lies. I have 2 DT units and can see this affect very clearly since one is a stock 80 hour and the other has 500 hours. The Now Playing list load time for the 80 hour is about 3 times faster. So in affect, clearing out the deleted items in the 500 hour will improve the Now Playing load time. Also, things like the ToDo list are slower on the 500 hour as well. So I don't think you can say that having less items in the ToDo list or Now Playing list doesn't improve performance on these screens. In fact, I don't know if it would improve performance in other areas or not. But to dismiss that notion is a bit ridiculous unless you can verify it.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

rainwater said:


> Did you read my posts?


 Yes... are you even reading my posts... It does not seem that we're having the same discussion...

I was simply speaking about the Recently Deleted folder, and you've turned it into something more, as usual... yes, the more items in the list, the longer it will take... as I've said, that's common sense... the more TiVo has to do, the more time it would take... albeit fractions of seconds... but it does not take as long to display them in groups as it does to display them with groups off... so that leads to demostrate that it does not have to process every single recording the same when they're in groups as it does when they're not in groups...

And clearing the Recently Deleted folder has very little affect on overall performance, which you seem to agree... where it seems we disagree, is that I don't believe it affects the performance of the NPL much either... that is what I see on my TiVo's, from 80 hours to 444 hours... with groups on or groups off... with the Recently Deleted folder empty or having 200 items...


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ok, that is all well and good. so why do you feel you need to clean out recently deleted ? Let them roll off on their own due to good programming that ensures what is in recently deleted has no effect whatsoever on your future recordings or even on optional suggestions.


Foremost, I am compulsive. I don't like to see files listed of things I no longer want. Also, I don't like the idea of resigning myself to accept this Recently Deleted folder when there is even a hint of a performance degredation.

I think rainwater has hit this issue dead-on, regardless of the differing opinions and/or miscommunication of him and mchips. The more items in any type of list, the more a processor has to calculate.

Now, with our desktop systems, this would be an otherwise trivial calculation. However, with TiVo's 50-some MHz CPU, and the latest version of its lagged software, this becomes a very important issue. I have noticed a difference in TiVo's performance within Now Playing, even if it is only a matter of a couple of seconds.

Remember 486 PCs running at 50MHz? None of them were designed to run video backgrounds on a GUI-based menu system (default TiVo's skin), let alone compile lists of files while doing so. So it's a miracle that TiVo was able to tweak their software to make the best performance use out of 50MHz, while off-loading as much video processing to a GPU.

On that note, does anyone know if the TiVo software is using a flatfile, database, or on-the-fly approach to keeping track of video files? MythTv uses MySQL database, which is extremely fast, but a database within TiVo might be too much for its hardware specs. Either way, earlier versions of TiVo worked just fine for me with an adequate amount of control (or rather illusion of it) -- it's the new version of their software that's annoying me.

At any rate, and regardless of whether others feel it justified, the "Recently Deleted" folder and TiVo's laggy performance are big issues with me.


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## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

cipher_nemo said:


> I'm not married, [...]
> 
> [...] and I'm not about to sit back and let someone else, like TiVo, dictate to me how to use a PVR.


i'm a bit confused. doesn't any mfg 'dictate' how their equipment will be used? certainly whirlpool does w/ my washer/dryer - sony w/ my tv - and yes tivo w/ my pvr. i have to hit the buttons just as they say or the danged things won't work as advertised.

as for not being married - i would have guessed this.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cipher_nemo said:


> Remember 486 PCs running at 50MHz? None of them were designed to run video backgrounds on a GUI-based menu system (default TiVo's skin), let alone compile lists of files while doing so. So it's a miracle that TiVo was able to tweak their software to make the best performance use out of 50MHz, while off-loading as much video processing to a GPU.


I think the backgrounds on menus is analogous to a macromedia flash image if not that directly. Not really video so it lets them work in that low end processor power space. Not specific to your opinion on the now playing list, just adding that point of info.

other than that - certainly you are entitled to your opinion. Since my TiVos tend to be in the 2 to 3 second time at the most to get now playing displayed altogther I do not have to deal with that problem and just let recently deleted roll off on its own. As you state - your mileage varies , which is fine by me


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## subslug (Nov 16, 2005)

My recently deleted only stays in the folder for about a day anyway so I can't even try that to see if that speeds this unit up past a crawl at all or not.

I can kill the idea that the slowdown is only on units which haven't had their hard drives updated, I replace mine with a 140 gb drive about 6 months or more back, all was fine until the service update mentioning Kid Zone......from that point on it's been a snail.

I still have a mirrored image of the older, faster, software on a tired old 4 gb hard drive, I had wondered if imaging back the big drive with the old software would speed things up again or not? I guess it would work until Tivo decides to re-push the buggy software back to my unit. :down: 

I made the mistake of thinking the Tivo was such a cool system that it was worthy of the lifetime mebership, then a few weeks later this happens......ouch......my bad.


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

moonscape said:


> doesn't any mfg 'dictate' how their equipment will be used? certainly whirlpool does w/ my washer/dryer - sony w/ my tv - and yes tivo w/ my pvr. i have to hit the buttons just as they say or the danged things won't work as advertised.


Yes and no. Manufacturers of consumer products do lock consumers into a specific use process to some extent. However, more consumer products are being built with embedded computers, such as TiVo or those silly fridges with DVD-players built into the door. TiVo runs on a type of Linux and uses standard HDDs (or rather can use them, but is shipped with specific drives like Maxtor's Quickview series). Obviously people can modify them and/or hack things on the unit at their own leisure.

Also, your washer, dryer, etc. cannot easily be replaced by DIY alternatives (at least not yet). TiVo is a device that can be easily replaced with a DIY alternative (MythTV, FreeVo, GB-PVR, Windows Media Center, etc.). This means TiVo shouldn't dictate how one is supposed to use a PVR, less they risk alienating some of their customers (both current and prospect).

TiVo is also facing competition on their level from both the cable and satellite market of PVRs and PVR services. Just look at the deal ReplayTV is doing in China. TiVo is one of the first to quickly turn PVRs into a market, and for that they should be commended. Yet, many believe that they haven't done enough to change with the market, they've made bad financial decisions, and they've earned themselves an "evil" title with all of the advertising they force upon customers.

2006 Recent Article: A TiVo stock owner: Suicide Squeeze

2003 Article: The Motley Fool: Will TiVo Get Betamaxed?

TiVo may cause serious injury to their customer base with the Series 3. For $800, a customer can purchase this unit and have even more problems than with the Series 2: TiVo Series3 DRM glitches

Sorry I stretched that topic a bit, but I relate bad decisions with money to bad decisions forced upon customers. From decisions as big as a flawed shareholders rights plan (Wall Street didn't agree with TiVo on this, and free-fall shows), to decisions as small (ie: technical) as a flawed software update that creates lag.

So if TiVo really wants to thrive as a PVR solution they need to eventually drop the strike-a-deal storm, change with the market, and stop dictating TiVo use regarding DVM, forced ads, and forced system updates. A free PVR solution is becoming less and less restrictive, and easier to install and use every day. Couple this with the decreasing price of PC hardware, and you eventually have a winner. TiVo, at the same time, increases the price of their new units, and makes their once easy solution more complicated and restrictive.

So do manufacturers dictate use? Yes. Will they still be around if they continue to do so in a growing, competitive market? No; they will become less and less of a viable solution.

In simpler terms, imagine what would happen if you bought a Dell brand PC and they put restrictions on it to limit what software you can install? Simple answer: they would fail as a PC manufacturer.

The line between consumer products and computers is a blurry one. TiVo units *are* specialized computers. If TiVo allowed its customers to use Zap2It.com online scheduling for US residents, or XML-based on-line scheduling elsewhere, they'd instantly lose their subscription customers. That is the fine line that's holding TiVo's income together. If you use free on-line scheduling, you don't need TiVo's subscription.

Now, time to go watch some Nova and Star Trek I recorded on my MythTV system.


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## TiVo Steve (Nov 8, 2005)

The main advantage of using my TiVo over a HTPC was the smooth interface, with the seasons pass options and suggestions. The unbearable slowdown after the "Summer Update" has changed that. (rant...SUMMER...).

Now the scales are tipping in favor of a computer based PVR. If TiVo does not fix the problems created by the 7.3.1 fiasco, they will lose a long time customer!

I have already picked up a discontinued Sony DHG-hdd250 HD PVR to replace my Series 2. It uses the TVGOS system (which if awful compared to TiVo). But it does not get forced software updates, ads, or new unwanted features. BTW, it records 30 hours of HDTV (or 200 hours of SD) and it cost me $200 (on ebay). And no monthly fees! That's qiute a bit cheaper than the S3!

Sorry for the 7.3.1 rant, but I've been living with a crippled Series 2 box for over 3 months now. It used to be the centerpiece of my AV system, and I recommended TiVo to my friends. Not any more...


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## kirbinster (Jun 19, 2004)

Wow I thought my TiVo was just getting bogged down, I am glad to see the problem is not unique to me. Hope it gets fixed soon, driving me crazy.


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## jtlytle (May 17, 2005)

I noticed my TiVo S2 slowed down after all those new features ( Yahoo, Traffic, and all those crap) were added to TiVo. Is there a way I have a choice to have those feature or not? I would selected "NONE" so The remote will be much faster. I may be wrong?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cipher_nemo said:


> Yes and no. Manufacturers of consumer products do lock consumers into a specific use process to some extent. However, more consumer products are being built with embedded computers, such as TiVo or those silly fridges with DVD-players built into the door.


 I have seen the TVs in the fridge, but no DVD player or PC in the fridge.


> TiVo runs on a type of Linux and uses standard HDDs (or rather can use them, but is shipped with specific drives like Maxtor's Quickview series). Obviously people can modify them and/or hack things on the unit at their own leisure.


 to a point. it is getting harder to do on the newer TiVo DVRs and less people are thus doing that. Most people just wnat a DVR they plug in and it works. This isalso leads to the frustration in this thread as people are less inclined to try and fix the problem themsleves and rightfully expect a solution form the mnfg.


> Also, your washer, dryer, etc. cannot easily be replaced by DIY alternatives (at least not yet). TiVo is a device that can be easily replaced with a DIY alternative (MythTV, FreeVo, GB-PVR, Windows Media Center, etc.).


 I highly doubt it is easilt replaced. Few would get a PC and install all the software needed for an open source solution. Windows does not exist on 90% of all PCs because of its vast superiority as an OS. Anyone that tried to run a dula tuner PVR from a 500 or 700$ MCE PC they buy in the store will soon have way more problems than a slow TiVo presents not too mnetion having to spend more bucks on tuners and the like. Buyinga 2000$ MCE system with support is an option but that is a large chunk of change with more limited HD options than an S3.


> This means TiVo shouldn't dictate how one is supposed to use a PVR, less they risk alienating some of their customers (both current and prospect).


 flawed inputs leads to a flawed conclusion. Most people are not looking for a configurable DVR but want something they can rely on to just record the shows and have some other easy to uise features like pulling shows off to a PC or portable media player or piping music and pictures therough the house etc. This is obviously not what you want but that does not mean you want what most people want.


> TiVo is also facing competition on their level from both the cable and satellite market of PVRs and PVR services. Just look at the deal ReplayTV is doing in China. TiVo is one of the first to quickly turn PVRs into a market, and for that they should be commended.


Yes, that competiton has made it hard for TiVo since they had to bring their prices down to deal with it. TiVo has hung tough though adn it is replayTV that no longer has a presence in the US market. Also TiVo has a subsidiary in the far east and is already selling in Korea and other countries. [/quote] Yet, many believe that they haven't done enough to change with the market, they've made bad financial decisions, and they've earned themselves an "evil" title with all of the advertising they force upon customers.[/quote] one yellow star on the first menu only and the rare thumbs up icon during a commercial. then there was the optional Product Watch. Agian the input to your argument is just plain wrong. 


> 2006 Recent Article: A TiVo stock owner: Suicide Squeeze
> 
> 2003 Article: The Motley Fool: Will TiVo Get Betamaxed?


 same old refrain over the years and many death of Tivo threads later and here we are still in the TiVo forum. How long will it take for these dire predictions to actually happen 


> TiVo may cause serious injury to their customer base with the Series 3. For $800, a customer can purchase this unit and have even more problems than with the Series 2: TiVo Series3 DRM glitches


 the most flawed part of your post. The DRM is an expected part of the CABLE COMPANIES learning how to use the cable card correctly, as a re a lot of the problem threads in the S3 forum. The other bugs are very typical of a brand new product on the market. An update is shceduled for November and bug fixing for both S2 and S3 I speculate to be the number one task of that update.


> Sorry I stretched that topic a bit, but I relate bad decisions with money to bad decisions forced upon customers. From decisions as big as a flawed shareholders rights plan (Wall Street didn't agree with TiVo on this, and free-fall shows), to decisions as small (ie: technical) as a flawed software update that creates lag.
> 
> So if TiVo really wants to thrive as a PVR solution they need to eventually drop the strike-a-deal storm, change with the market, and stop dictating TiVo use regarding DVM, forced ads, and forced system updates.


 DRM WAS NOT THOUGHT UP BY TIVO. all of it was part of licesing around DVD players and cable labs certification and the general environment of not wanting the copyright holders to come after TiVo.


> A free PVR solution is becoming less and less restrictive, and easier to install and use every day. Couple this with the decreasing price of PC hardware, and you eventually have a winner.


 the distinct advantage of open source solutions is that they do not have to do deals to license aspects of their system. A distinct dis advantage is that they will never get a cable labs certification to integrate a cable card into their system and will thus need to rely on OTA HD or hacks to get at HD content. Fine for those willing to go dwon that road but not the average consumers desire. An off the shelf system is what they want.


> TiVo, at the same time, increases the price of their new units,


 COMPLETELY wrong and spikes the nail in the coffin of your totally wrong argument. A dual Tuner 80 hour Tivo for 99$ or less vs the 250$ afcter reabte price on the 40 hour Single Tuner I bought first. Also the monthly sub on that DT is 6.95 due to Mutli Service Discount. Looks cheaper to me. The S3 is totally new hardware that can not be compared to an S2 and TiVo is selling all they want at the current price. Next year the price will go down on the S3


> and makes their once easy solution more complicated and restrictive.
> 
> So do manufacturers dictate use? Yes. Will they still be around if they continue to do so in a growing, competitive market? No; they will become less and less of a viable solution.
> 
> ...


again - the flawed conclusion of flawed inputs. BTW is that Star Trek in HD? How much did the hardware cost? How much time did you put into getting it running the way you wnat? not just install the software time but the tweaking time and maintenance time as well. I get that you now have a very flexible and configurable system that can do a lot of very cool things, but you can not then make the leap that this is thus the correct path to every consumers desire for a DVR.


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Anyone that tried to run a dula tuner PVR from a 500 or 700$ MCE PC they buy in the store will soon have way more problems than a slow TiVo presents not too mnetion having to spend more bucks on tuners and the like.


I run a Hauppauge PVR-500 card (dual-tuner) in my MythTV system. I runs very smoothly and has done so without any changes. At first, I attempted to install MythTV on ubuntu Linux, but realized the lack of support on that distribution. If I had done my research ahead of time, I'd have started with Fedora Core since the majority of the MythTV community runs it on Fedora Core (ie: more complete help and walk-throughs). I followed the guide at: Fedora Myth(TV)ology.

That install went very smooth. It took a few hours, but the result is a PVR solution without subscription fees, with exponentially more control than TiVo, and with a total cost of around $650 for hardware (a $400 PC would work just fine too, with a single-tuner card). Now, my TiVo series 2 at the time cost me $300, install took may be 30-45 minutes, and much less time to simple 'plug and play'. Those stats alone are in favor of TiVo.

However, the end result of my MythTV system is a powerful 2.6GHz PC (overclocks to 3.2GHz), with 1GB of dual-channel DDR-400 RAM, and 236GB of recording space (250GB drive). Compare this to my series 2 that can't even run a 'multi-functional desktop' O/S.

I estimate that building a simple PVR from the ground up takes 2 hours for hardware and 3 for software. If someone else builds the PC for a customer, knock off the 2 hours for additional cost (which is still under the price of TiVo series 3"). If someone or a group of people involved with MythTV decide to take a Linux distro and throw in MythTV-related packages, then release it as its own distro, the software install time may be as small as 1 hour.

The difference may be dropped to half-an hour between TiVo and a free PVR solution. Depending upon how valuable one's time is, costs for the free PVR solution may be closer to that $800 mark where TiVo is right now.

With a free PVR solution, the system itself will be capable of doing more, much more quickly than TiVo ever could and ever will.



ZeoTiVo said:


> Buyinga 2000$ MCE system with support is an option but that is a large chunk of change with more limited HD options than an S3. flawed inputs leads to a flawed conclusion. Most people are not looking for a configurable DVR but want something they can rely on to just record the shows and have some other easy to uise features like pulling shows off to a PC or portable media player or piping music and pictures therough the house etc.


If this is the case, than TiVo is still left behind with people purchasing DVRs packaged with their satellite TV, and possibly with their cable TV in the future (since TiVo failed to partner with Comcast once already).

As for the $2,000 Microsoft system, you're quoting a really high-end model. Lower end PCs with Microsoft MCE retail for around $500. Even a $500 system will trample TiVo in raw performance, capabilities, and functionality.



ZeoTiVo said:


> DRM WAS NOT THOUGHT UP BY TIVO. all of it was part of licesing around DVD players and cable labs certification and the general environment of not wanting the copyright holders to come after TiVo.


It is obvious that digital rights management is not a concept thought up by TiVo. That should be common knowledge, so please, give people credit. I didn't say it was TiVo's concept.

This decision to use DRM is TiVo's new flaw. I couldn't say either way whether this is a good or bad decision for TiVo, because who knows if TiVo would have been sued if they opted not to adhere to DRM?

I do know that it is not a requirement to manufacturer hardware with DRM policing. I also know that receiving air broadcasts is free, and what people decide to do with the broadcasts once received in their own homes is their business, provided they don't re-broadcast, distribute, or sell it. As for cable and satellite, the concept is similar, but the service is a paid subscription with a few additional restrictions.

TiVo decided to allow DRM to police their customer's recordings, even though its not a requirement (yet). TiVo, the company that was supposed to bring us the freedom to record live TV, is now the company turning against our freedoms. Interesting how this changes in a matter of a few years. And all of this is happening, even though the DRM supporters and its proposed legislation is waning.

TiVo rolled-over its customers to protect itself against a possible threat in the future. An alternative to this, would be to leave the series 3 open (without DRM interference), and then plan for and release a software update that allows DRM policing if TiVo faced a suit. TiVo apparently doesn't think that losing its customers is as big a threat to success as a remote possibility of a law suit in the future. I guess only time will tell if that was a smart move.



ZeoTiVo said:


> ...distinct dis advantage is that they will never get a cable labs certification to integrate a cable card into their system and will thus need to rely on OTA HD or hacks to get at HD content. Fine for those willing to go dwon that road but not the average consumers desire.


Yes, open-source has to create their own code to handle high def TV. How is that different than what is already done in the open-source community? This isn't a "choice" per say for consumers. It's a behind-the-scenes issue that will either work with HD or not. I won't even go into the scarcity of programs broadcasted in HD (compared to all programs on TV).



ZeoTiVo said:


> An off the shelf system is what they want. COMPLETELY wrong and spikes the nail in the coffin of your totally wrong argument.


Last time I checked, I was responding to moonscape, then I went into a rant about TiVo. It wasn't an argument with anyone -- but it seems that you wanted to make it so. 

Yes, many people want an off-the-shelf solution that just plugs into their cable and TV to record shows. The TiVo series 2 does jus that. No argument there. My "rant" mentioned and predicted upon the future of TiVo as free solutions are becoming easier every day (yes, literally every day as the open-source community fixes bugs and writes more code to make things even more seamless).

What's stopping someone from selling pre-built PVR PCs with Linux, MythTV, and a TV tuner card? Absolutely nothing. I'm sure it will happen as DVR/PVRs become more and more popular. When it does eventually happen, TiVo will have to find some way to either compete directly, change its market, or add more value to what it already has. It's a matter of time, not a matter of possibility, and I doubt TiVo will survive unless some drastic changes are made. Series 3 is a good example of what changes would kill TiVo once subscription-free PVRs are prevalent in the marketplace.



ZeoTiVo said:


> BTW is that Star Trek in HD? How much did the hardware cost? How much time did you put into getting it running the way you wnat? not just install the software time but the tweaking time and maintenance time as well. I get that you now have a very flexible and configurable system that can do a lot of very cool things, but you can not then make the leap that this is thus the correct path to every consumers desire for a DVR.


The Star Trek isn't HD. I set up my MythTV to record regular extended cable, not HD. I spent very little on the hardware itself (except for the PVR-500, which was under $200). I spent much more on modding the PC (because it is a hobby of mine). My modded MythTV system (TiVoid ):









Yet, if someone else decides to build a MythTV system, they may budget as low as $350 if all they want to do is record regular TV.

The price is almost always in favor of the subscription-free PVR solution. The only failing of this free solution is time and knowledge. As you already mentioned, many people just want an off-the-shelf solution. When you start to add aspects such as HD-TV, things can get skewed. For now, people who are paying for an HD cable subscription are already paying more and will pay more for HD components regardless.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cipher_nemo said:


> I run a Hauppauge PVR-500 card (dual-tuner) in my MythTV system. I runs very smoothly and has done so without any changes. At first, I attempted to install MythTV on ubuntu Linux, but realized the lack of support on that distribution. If I had done my research ahead of time, I'd have started with Fedora Core since the majority of the MythTV community runs it on Fedora Core (ie: more complete help and walk-throughs). I followed the guide at: Fedora Myth(TV)ology.
> 
> That install went very smooth. It took a few hours, but the result is a PVR solution without subscription fees, with exponentially more control than TiVo, and with a total cost of around $650 for hardware (a $400 PC would work just fine too, with a single-tuner card). Now, my TiVo series 2 at the time cost me $300, install took may be 30-45 minutes, and much less time to simple 'plug and play'. Those stats alone are in favor of TiVo.


 that would work for you and other do it yourselfers on this forum but not for the broader buying public. The day we see off the shelf open source systems is the day those kind of numbers are available to the general public. I am not holding my breath. No money in it for anyone.


> However, the end result of my MythTV system is a powerful 2.6GHz PC (overclocks to 3.2GHz), with 1GB of dual-channel DDR-400 RAM, and 236GB of recording space (250GB drive). Compare this to my series 2 that can't even run a 'multi-functional desktop' O/S.
> 
> I estimate that building a simple PVR from the ground up takes 2 hours for hardware and 3 for software. If someone else builds the PC for a customer, knock off the 2 hours for additional cost (which is still under the price of TiVo series 3"). If someone or a group of people involved with MythTV decide to take a Linux distro and throw in MythTV-related packages, then release it as its own distro, the software install time may be as small as 1 hour.
> 
> The difference may be dropped to half-an hour between TiVo and a free PVR solution. Depending upon how valuable one's time is, costs for the free PVR solution may be closer to that $800 mark where TiVo is right now.


 but you do not have cable card hardware or even cable card support in that package. Many people are on cable and will want a system that records HD off their cable. The cable companies have effectively cut out open source from HD from cable via needing cable labs certification. This is what TiVo has done and where the DRM came from, it was never TiVo's idea to have the DRM nor did they care to force it on anyone.


> With a free PVR solution, the system itself will be capable of doing more, much more quickly than TiVo ever could and ever will.


 yes, that is how I closed my last post. I am not arguing that open source solution is not for you, I am arguing that it does not work as a business model for a company SELLING DVRs.


> If this is the case, than TiVo is still left behind with people purchasing DVRs packaged with their satellite TV, and possibly with their cable TV in the future (since TiVo failed to partner with Comcast once already).
> 
> As for the $2,000 Microsoft system, you're quoting a really high-end model. Lower end PCs with Microsoft MCE retail for around $500. Even a $500 system will trample TiVo in raw performance, capabilities, and functionality.


 oops, back to flawed inputs, not one of those 500$ MCE PCs comes with a tuner card. If you find one from some integrator's site it will not be a hauppage at that price. next problem is the guide data you get for free. it is not cleanmed up like TiVo guide data, you have to be much more aware of quirks in it. Now how many season passes and wishlists can be setup on that high end or low end PC. MCE is only on those low end PCs because MIcrosoft pushes it and the hardware makers are either forced or coorced with a good deal on going with MCE over regular XP. They are not trying to sell MCE capable units.



> It is obvious that digital rights management is not a concept thought up by TiVo. That should be common knowledge, so please, give people credit. I didn't say it was TiVo's concept.
> 
> This decision to use DRM is TiVo's new flaw. I couldn't say either way whether this is a good or bad decision for TiVo, because who knows if TiVo would have been sued if they opted not to adhere to DRM?


 your ignorance of the licesning landscape is still showing here. To add DVD capability TiVo needed macrovision, to add cable card support TiVo had to go with the CCI flags and enforce what they mean. ReplayTV had auto commercial skip and internet file sharing without DRM and suits were brought against them in short order and severly crippled them at a time of intense compettion. replayTV now comes with those tuners cards on a CD that goes in the same pile as the AOL CDs. TiVo forced nothing, it was forced and is still here because it played as a good corportae citizen


> I do know that it is not a requirement to manufacturer hardware with DRM policing. I also know that receiving air broadcasts is free, and what people decide to do with the broadcasts once received in their own homes is their business, provided they don't re-broadcast, distribute, or sell it. As for cable and satellite, the concept is similar, but the service is a paid subscription with a few additional restrictions.


 tell that to replayTV. You are just flat wrong as to the real legal/business environment TiVo must operate in.


> TiVo decided to allow DRM to police their customer's recordings, even though its not a requirement (yet). TiVo, the company that was supposed to bring us the freedom to record live TV, is now the company turning against our freedoms. Interesting how this changes in a matter of a few years. And all of this is happening, even though the DRM supporters and its proposed legislation is waning.


 nad getting wronger by the paragraph - TiVo decided they wanted to saty in business, they rest is forced by the copyright holders, even the content providers are now trying to bow out of the DRM flags and have the copyright holder set them adn they just pass them through. 


> TiVo rolled-over its customers to protect itself against a possible threat in the future. An alternative to this, would be to leave the series 3 open (without DRM interference), and then plan for and release a software update that allows DRM policing if TiVo faced a suit. TiVo apparently doesn't think that losing its customers is as big a threat to success as a remote possibility of a law suit in the future. I guess only time will tell if that was a smart move.


 and now we get to the big fat lie that TiVo rolled over its customers. The DRM as shown above was not a decision, it was the only way to produce a commercial product. Given that, I use entended basic cable and my S2s have never hit a show I could not MRV or TTG or burn to DVD save for rocketboom and the like.



> Yes, open-source has to create their own code to handle high def TV. How is that different than what is already done in the open-source community? This isn't a "choice" per say for consumers. It's a behind-the-scenes issue that will either work with HD or not. I won't even go into the scarcity of programs broadcasted in HD (compared to all programs on TV).


 because without a direct violation of the DMCA open source will never get to a cable card to legally decrypt the bytestream and get HD off cable. unless they go through a process to certify wioth cable labs and , yoiu guessed it, honor the CCI bits and enforce the DRM. It is not a matter of code but license


> Last time I checked, I was responding to moonscape, then I went into a rant about TiVo. It wasn't an argument with anyone -- but it seems that you wanted to make it so.


 not quite, I read your post and obviously disagreed with it so I replied. A public forum and all that you know


> Yes, many people want an off-the-shelf solution that just plugs into their cable and TV to record shows. The TiVo series 2 does jus that. No argument there. My "rant" mentioned and predicted upon the future of TiVo as free solutions are becoming easier every day (yes, literally every day as the open-source community fixes bugs and writes more code to make things even more seamless).
> 
> What's stopping someone from selling pre-built PVR PCs with Linux, MythTV, and a TV tuner card? Absolutely nothing. I'm sure it will happen as DVR/PVRs become more and more popular. When it does eventually happen, TiVo will have to find some way to either compete directly, change its market, or add more value to what it already has. It's a matter of time, not a matter of possibility, and I doubt TiVo will survive unless some drastic changes are made. Series 3 is a good example of what changes would kill TiVo once subscription-free PVRs are prevalent in the marketplace.
> 
> ...


money is what is stopping someone from putting an open source solution in an off the shelf package. There is no money in that. First if there is any hacks to get to DVD or cable card or any other protected content, that for profit company would be out of busines before they tallied their first periods sales. so that leaves only SD content or else gooing through the process to get certified and employ DRM jsut like the other companies. Microsoft will win that game. Time will tell if TiVo can turn a profit in the game. You actually should be thankful open source does not try and be commercially viable, it would ruin the very thing you like about it.


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## jkalnin (Jan 8, 2003)

I miss the days where threads like this were visted by "TivoPony" and he would reassure us that Tivo was working on a fix and that we actually mattered. Since he left is there any official Tivo presence here? 

My Tivo is so slow I have to second guess myself on wether I pushed the button or not? Did I? Let me push it again... there's the guide, damn now its gone.... WTF!!!


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> that would work for you and other do it yourselfers on this forum but not for the broader buying public.


That is true. Again, you're not looking far enough into the possible future of PVRs. When downloading music from the Internet became easier than buying a CD, the public went that direction (even though it is a violation of copyright laws). Since then, the whole distribution of music has radically changed. The same will most likely happen to watching TV.



ZeoTivo said:


> your ignorance of the licesning landscape is still showing here. To add DVD capability TiVo needed macrovision, to add cable card support TiVo had to go with the CCI flags and enforce what they mean. ReplayTV had auto commercial skip and internet file sharing without DRM and suits were brought against them... TiVo forced nothing...


I think you need to read some article on how to win arguments and influence people. Calling someone ignorant isn't going to earn you any respect or convey your points any better. 

Any ways, TiVo *made* this choice. The consequences of the choice may be poor where profit is concerned, but it is still a choice to include DRM hardware and/or software in a product or not. When you mention ReplayTV, you lumped commercial skip, internet file sharing, and non-use of DRM. We're talking about DRM only, not the other points which most likely broke the camel's back.

DRM and TiVo series 3

Defective by Design



ZeoTiVo said:


> You actually should be thankful open source does not try and be commercially viable, it would ruin the very thing you like about it.


Open source is a concept with a specific community, not an entity. It is comprised of volunteers, as you probably already know. The whole concept of commercialism clashes with the GNU License, which is a backbone of a majority of the open source community's projects. The user, as designated in the license, is allowed to charge a distribution fee for software, but it is available and originally released for free. Open-source goes beyond simply "free" software, it allows anyone to use the software entirely, modify it, and redistribute it. It is the apogee of freedom in software distribution.

Many open source projects already have a commercial side, but it merely supports the project financially (ie: non-profit) and does not interfere with the software itself. Open source via the GNU license can't be "ruined".

Now, if we're discussing non-GNU licensed software that is also open source, it is possible to mix commercialism and open source practices. There has been limited success, but it is possible to strengthen open source software's share of the market if implemented correctly. It's a different mentality than what is already there in the open source communities.

An interesting article about it: Open Source's Commercial Future


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

jkalnin said:


> I miss the days where threads like this were visted by "TivoPony" and he would reassure us that Tivo was working on a fix and that we actually mattered. ...


Yes, it would be nice to have some reassurance that a fix will eventually be released. Unfortunately all I find here is some advocates for TiVo who aren't even TiVo employees.

TiVo: any news, or re-assuring words about any planned updates to fix this?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cipher_nemo said:


> That is true. Again, you're not looking far enough into the possible future of PVRs. When downloading music from the Internet became easier than buying a CD, the public went that direction (even though it is a violation of copyright laws). Since then, the whole distribution of music has radically changed. The same will most likely happen to watching TV.


 yes, downloading shows is a whole different story then DVR recording. Apple has a big head start there and TiVo has TiVoCast but no content so far. MythTV, etc... can make use directly of bit torrent but will have problems dealing directly with any commercial stores because of, you guessed it, DRM on those stores.



> I think you need to read some article on how to win arguments and influence people. Calling someone ignorant isn't going to earn you any respect or convey your points any better.


 I did not call you ignorant -- ignorance of a topic does not reflect directly on the person or their intelligence - calling me ignorant of 18th century LUTE music or indeed how MythTV is coded would not insult me as I do not know much about those topics if anything.


> Any ways, TiVo *made* this choice. The consequences of the choice may be poor where profit is concerned, but it is still a choice to include DRM hardware and/or software in a product or not.


 And here is where I think you are showing ignorance of some issues around what you have to do to gain access to content. TiVo could have chosen to not have DVDs in their units, not been able to record HD from cable because they did not get cable labs certification or not avoided a fight by using DRM on TTG so the FCC would sign off on it. Seems like these are things they had to _choose to do_ so they had a product to offer


> When you mention ReplayTV, you lumped commercial skip, internet file sharing, and non-use of DRM. We're talking about DRM only, not the other points which most likely broke the camel's back.
> DRM and TiVo series 3
> Defective by Design


true, point taken but it does show the legal climate where small players can not afford to ignore the rules as they will get shut down. TiVo put DRM on TTG and had it OKed by the FCC precisely to avoid that same kind of money draining fight over it.


> Open source is a concept with a specific community, not an entity. It is comprised of volunteers, as you probably already know.


 Yes, which to a certain level keeps it from getting into the same kind of hassles a ReplayTV did or a TiVo might. But it also is what makes it hard to install the software on some hardware and sell it to joe consumer as a product on the shelf of BestBuy. Whoever is commercially behind packaging that up would be held liable for any thing the software did to break a security scheme. So have DVD burning or playback but no Macrovision liscense then that off the shelf product, even if they did not change the open source one bit is liable for violating the need for Macrovision for DVD ability. That includes Macrovision DRM.

I agree that is not fair and I also think open source is in part a cool reaction to over zealous protection schemes but TiVo has to live in the legal space and can not just decide to not include liscensing and the DRM that comes with it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cipher_nemo said:


> Yes, it would be nice to have some reassurance that a fix will eventually be released. Unfortunately all I find here is some advocates for TiVo who aren't even TiVo employees.
> 
> TiVo: any news, or re-assuring words about any planned updates to fix this?


 back to the original topic  TiVoPony acknowledged this problem about 20 threads ago. TiVo is well aware and working on it. not sure what else they could say so they most likely are not looking to jump into every thread on the subject


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ... point taken but it does show the legal climate where small players can not afford to ignore the rules as they will get shut down. TiVo put DRM on TTG and had it OKed by the FCC precisely to avoid that same kind of money draining fight over it.


You put out some good points on the choices made by TiVo and why. Thanks. I only know about the series 3 from a user's viewpoint, and likewise I only know about DRM from a user's viewpoint. I'm sure there are reasons behind TiVo's choices, as you mentioned, and it seems that they are justified to some point. So to me, I see it as a bad choice, even if it was the only logical and otherwise reasonable one TiVo could make at that turning point.

Its a bad decision for the consumer, but I understand a little better that it was a 'necessary evil' for TiVo (for lack of better words), to avoid sending invites for future legal battles.

Unfortunately for TiVo, educated consumers (ie: consumers who read articles and reviews about a product before purchasing it) see that the series 3 is using DRM, and if they're educated about DRM, they understand that this will cripple some of their recording to DVD, etc.

The fortunate part is that consumer awareness of this may spark even more litigation to drive DRM into extinction... back into the 90's where it belongs. Less consumer hate dumped on TiVo, and more consumer hate thrown at the root of the problem, DRM, might help the situation. Yet, its tough not to hate a company for 'jumping on the bandwagon', and being part of the problem with DRM instead of part of a possible solution. I know, its tough to turn a profit with that sort of mentality, and much more secure to go with the flow sometimes.

Simplying including the DVD with the series 3, but not enabling a TiVo GUI for using it would be welcomed by the geeks among us as a better solution. But I know that wouldn't fly well with the majority of series 3 customers, let alone other critics of the PVR market. TiVo's evil factor would be lower, but they'd get teased for sure.



ZeoTiVo said:


> ... But it also is what makes it hard to install the software on some hardware and sell it to joe consumer as a product on the shelf of BestBuy. Whoever is commercially behind packaging that up would be held liable for any thing the software did to break a security scheme. So have DVD burning or playback but no Macrovision liscense then that off the shelf product, even if they did not change the open source one bit is liable for violating the need for Macrovision for DVD ability. That includes Macrovision DRM.


It is quite a dillema. There's a simple reason behind it, though: TiVo released series 3 at the wrong time within our current politcal arena.  It seems that any way we look at it, you either have a non-DRM working product that may spell financial doom in the future, a DRM product with semi-crippled DVD and HD recording, or an incomplete product without any means of recording to DVD. I would call that a no-win situation. Is there another alternative that doesn't involve macrovision, and that doesn't carry a questionable future for its legality?

I wonder how many consumers out there are now furious with TiVo when they find out they can't record a specific show the way they want to on their unit? Will they blame TiVo or blame the restrictions of DRM? If I never read your points here, I know I would be blaming TiVo instead. Now, I can only blame TiVo for caving into DRM -- I really have to blame the concept of DRM itself.

Open source is the only solution for me if I want to freely record shows wherever. I still have my series 2 and a subscription for it, but I doubt I'd ever buy another TiVo until DRM is a thing of the past, or until TiVo can find some clever way out of the DRM mess. I wonder how many other consumers will decide to just live with the DRM on series 3 verses choosing other PVR options, or reverting to older PVR units without DRM?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cipher_nemo said:


> The fortunate part is that consumer awareness of this may spark even more litigation to drive DRM into extinction... back into the 90's where it belongs. Less consumer hate dumped on TiVo, and more consumer hate thrown at the root of the problem, DRM, might help the situation.


 agreed


> Yet, its tough not to hate a company for 'jumping on the bandwagon', and being part of the problem with DRM instead of part of a possible solution. I know, its tough to turn a profit with that sort of mentality, and much more secure to go with the flow sometimes.


 Macrovision has a stranglehold on DVD playback - if you have DVD playback you need Macrovison Liscense to enable it or else break the DMCA by getting around the Macovison lock 


> Simplying including the DVD with the series 3, but not enabling a TiVo GUI for using it would be welcomed by the geeks among us as a better solution.


 prime example of how tightt he macrovision grip is. Even doing this is a violation that Macrovision could sue over and win. There is no choice in the matter for a commercial company. want DVD - have to include Macrovision - want to get to the digital bytestream of the cable company so you can record HD and also not need a set top box - have to get certified by cable labs and use the DRM they mandate. The only other thing TiVo could do is put out a product without DVD hardware *or* software involved and have no cable cards and thus no HD recordability. Even without DVD some copyright holders like HBO or SHOWTIME could sue if they could show damnages from TiVo letting their content get recorded without restriction to keep it out of the hands of non paying to HBO or SHOWTIME viewers.

MythTV has no one to sue so they can shrug at DRM for now. BUt they will also have to make the choice to not include a way to record HD off of cable. So open source is making choices as well.

Nicely debated but the reality is the copyright holders of video are palying it smarter than the music owners helps that they have an easier time controlling the pipes of the cable companies. I imagine the hackers are quite busy on this one


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

*bump* slow TiVo series 2 software still an issue. I'm just bumping this to keep it close to the top in case other TiVo customers are looking for a place to gripe about the slow-down.


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## johnd7 (Feb 23, 2002)

This is so upsetting. What version was it when we were all here saying the same thing and the "double button press" issue? Tivo blamed it on the remote and then refused to send me one and on the phone would not acknowledge the issue even though I pointed them to postings here from Tivo employees acknowledging it. Amazing that eventually another update fixed it, months and months later since it was supposed to be the remote. Now here we are again with another bad software update. Tivo should come up with an option to install updates or not so I can let other people "beta" test for Tivo.


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

johnd7 said:


> ... Tivo should come up with an option to install updates or not so I can let other people "beta" test for Tivo.


Didn't you know? People who bought a Series II signed up to be beta testers for TiVo -- it was part of your contract. Oh, and Series I owners were the alpha testers. j/k.  It makes you wonder, though, lol.

I just discovered that the processor in my Brother printer is twice as fast as the processor in my Series II TiVo. That's a scary thought.

TiVo should have upped the hardware specs for Series II, or stopped forcing the install/update of lagged software without our approval. Yes, I agree, TiVo should stop treating its paying customers as "beta" testers. I think you just nailed this term for Series II owners.


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## Cpen (Jul 13, 2002)

PLEASE FIX THIS!

My wife won't stop complaining about the slowness.


Make it stop.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Relax, there is a fix in the works. Go sign up for the Beta if you want to see it for yourself.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=324464

Y-ASK


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## Cori (Jan 27, 2005)

Bump ... S2 is still slow


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## johnd7 (Feb 23, 2002)

Ok, so they have a new release coming soon that is currently in Beta (which is full by the way) http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...ad.php?t=324464

I am glad to hear this but it is still bothersome that this is a whole new release and not just a patch. They should have had a patch out to fix the s2 long ago. Anyone want to take bets on what this release breaks? Will we again be waiting for a new release or a patch?


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## mhd (Jan 24, 2005)

Thanks to all for letting us and Tivo know their software is slow, and it's horrible.
Snappyness/responsiveness is crucial. I want to throw their system out the
window when I wait for 6 seconds to get the guide. Ugh!


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## aard (May 13, 2002)

supasta said:


> Again, welcome to the 7.3 updates.
> 
> SEARCH for more info on the effects of this update on the S2 boxes.


it's pretty funny that someone was posting "again" and "search for more info" on september 24th (implying that this had already been discussed at length on the forum)...

...and here we are on november 9th and it's still busted. really. this is pretty absurd. even microsoft manages to get fixes out faster than this. so yeah, not "funny ha-ha" more like "funny sad".


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## gconnery (Mar 31, 2006)

I just got the update without requesting to be on the beta. Had peformance problems, at least on my old non-DT S2...

Can't say yet if it fixes all the problems. Seems like it might be snappier though.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

johnd7 said:


> Ok, so they have a new release coming soon that is currently in Beta (which is full by the way) http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...ad.php?t=324464
> 
> I am glad to hear this but it is still bothersome that this is a whole new release and not just a patch. They should have had a patch out to fix the s2 long ago. Anyone want to take bets on what this release breaks? Will we again be waiting for a new release or a patch?


You are assuming a simple patch would fix the issue. They did patch to 7.3.1 for the fixes they could put in a simple patch. Obviously the slowdown and rebooting issues went deeper and needed more analysis and testing to fix.

I am not hearing of anything major in the new release either - it reminds me of the 7.2.2 release. The very one that everyone wnated to go back to


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## johnd7 (Feb 23, 2002)

I am not saying its "simple", just that they should have created a patch by now and not waited for their next release. In fact, I could care less what you call it, "patch","full release", "new version" etc. etc. The fact remains the damn thing should have been fixed long ago and they aggravate customers more by not acknowledging their issues sooner, sometimesw never acknowledging and never fixing. It's B.S. and they can only get away with it because there is no better product that compares, which sucks for consumers.


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## TivoLaddie (Dec 3, 2002)

TiVo have now released a sign-up page for priority request on the 8.1 software update for Series 2 owners.

Please see my posted thread.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

jkalnin said:


> I miss the days where threads like this were visted by "TivoPony" and he would reassure us that Tivo was working on a fix and that we actually mattered. Since he left is there any official Tivo presence here?
> 
> My Tivo is so slow I have to second guess myself on wether I pushed the button or not? Did I? Let me push it again... there's the guide, damn now its gone.... WTF!!!


My Tivo got a speed boost sometime in the last two days. It is finally back to being as responsive as my Series 1.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jkalnin said:


> I miss the days where threads like this were visted by "TivoPony" and he would reassure us that Tivo was working on a fix and that we actually mattered. Since he left is there any official Tivo presence here?


I don't miss those days because TiVoPony is still here, he posted early on to reassure everyone that the fix as on the way and that it mattered to TiVo that people had problems with the DVR. A select group of posters chose to ignore that and continue to rant on for twenty more threads adn bury the message as if it did not exist. They chose to believe that TiVoPony was just trying to pass it off and that for some strange reason TiVo did not care and was not working on the problem.

We now see those posters were very wrong and that what TiVoPony said did indeed come to pass and the official priority list for the release is out. Perhaps with less ranting and whining around here we could get better details from TiVo inc. that are easy enough to find vs buried under a mound of 'posts' that tend to dissuade TiVo reps from posting more often.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I don't miss those days because TiVoPony is still here, he posted early on to reassure everyone that the fix as on the way and that it mattered to TiVo that people had problems with the DVR. A select group of posters chose to ignore that and continue to rant on for twenty more threads adn bury the message as if it did not exist. They chose to believe that TiVoPony was just trying to pass it off and that for some strange reason TiVo did not care and was not working on the problem.
> 
> We now see those posters were very wrong and that what TiVoPony said did indeed come to pass and the official priority list for the release is out. Perhaps with less ranting and whining around here we could get better details from TiVo inc. that are easy enough to find vs buried under a mound of 'posts' that tend to dissuade TiVo reps from posting more often.


The ranting would never have occurred had TiVo not put out the crappy bug laden release that 7.3 was in the first place. 7.3.1 was a quick fix that removed most of the blatant problems but still is a far cry from satisfactory. We have had to put up with that for months now.

Hopefully the new fall release will finally get the performance to where it should have been in the first place.

Personally I want to see fewer apologies and promises from TiVo that they are working on the problem and more releases that work out of the box as they should.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> The ranting would never have occurred had TiVo not put out the crappy bug laden release that 7.3 was in the first place. 7.3.1 was a quick fix that removed most of the blatant problems but still is a far cry from satisfactory. We have had to put up with that for months now.


very true, thanks for sharing your rant


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## drummind (Jan 9, 2006)

Hey,

I've tried to read through most of this thread, but there is too much information for me to plow through. Being a software developer for a living, I've done the obvious steps to help rectify this issue:

- Delete programs of the Now Playing list, and delete them permenantly from the Recycle Bin - Seemed to help a little bit, but not enough to satify the slowness completely.

- Rebooted - Helped for a while, then just seemed to get slow again. Really points to a memory leak.

- Reset - Completely reset the system, which removes everything entirely. I was kinda hoping it would start up with the original version of the OS, without the 7.3.1 patch (even though it didn't have wireless access back then, which would suck - gotta love that wireless connection to your music !!). Unfortunately, 7.3.1 is still there. But, the system seems to be responding wonderfully. My guess is that in a couple of days though, it will go back to a crawl, due to a memory leak. But, I though I would give this a shot, just in case it seemed to help. I didn't read anyone else doing this, but like I said, I could get through the whole thread. If anyone has sacrificed it all like I have, and completely reset their system, let me know if it help for the long term or not.


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## 2004raptor (Dec 31, 2005)

drummind said:


> snip...


Did you do the proirity update mentioned a few posts above yours by TivoLaddie ?


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## drummind (Jan 9, 2006)

No - I didn't know about the 8.1 update. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

One and a half years later, our series 2 TiVo is still painfully slow. Nice job, TiVo.

Oh well, I helped my father move on by building and configuring him a custom PVR solution using Linux and MythTV. Good bye, TiVo.


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## kirbinster (Jun 19, 2004)

Yea mine is still really slow. For quite a while I used the dual tuner PVR in my desktop computer and convert the files to mpeg and shoot them over the network to my tivo to watch on the big screen. I could record two shows at once on the computer.

Recently I bought a real nice used media center pc that sits behind my 65" TV and it has dual tuner pvr, so not much need for the tivo any more. Plus I can go out to torrents and download HD quality TV shows and shoot them to the TV over the HDMI output of the computer, so it is a much better solution than Tivo. Tivo gets very little use anymore.


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