# DST starts 3/11 - problems if on 3.1.5f?



## bpratt (Nov 20, 2004)

If D* is sending out 6.3c to fix the fact that DST starts the 2nd Sunday in March this year instead of the 1st Sunday in April, what happens to those of us who are running 3.1.5f and have our phone lines unplugged? Will the time get updated between 3/11 and 4/1, or will all our recordings be 1 hour off?


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## az_double_eagle (Aug 14, 2006)

bpratt said:


> ....or will all our recordings be 1 hour off?


Just being cheeky here, but that's one of the best things about living in Arizona.

No DST!


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## leesweet (Mar 13, 2004)

I'm dealing with a lot of these issues on our computers at work, so I'll hazard a guess: For an unpatched system that gets a time hack from a time standard and sets the time zone itself, you will be off an hour.

Having said that, couldn't you set the TZ manually to one to the east (which is what DST is), that is, Eastern -> Atlantic, Central -> Eastern, etc., for the three weeks of 'extended DST' (and set it again in the fall, while undoing the change in the 'normal' DST period)?

I assume you are now set to either 'Auto (Satellite)' or your proper TZ.

What's everyone think of my theory/plan for 3.1.5 people? I also assume there's no other easy way to deal with this (I've not checked on other forums for a way to hack the DST table internally...  ).


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

az_double_eagle said:


> Just being cheeky here, but that's one of the best things about living in Arizona.
> 
> No DST!


Just being cheeky here, but how confident are you that DirecTV *knows* there's no DST in Arizona?


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## az_double_eagle (Aug 14, 2006)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Just being cheeky here, but how confident are you that DirecTV *knows* there's no DST in Arizona?


Good point, but I'm hoping that the "Automatically Detect From Satellite" knows.

Actually, now that I think about it more, I'm starting to freak out.


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

DST information comes via the satellite datastream. One's time in the guide and in the box is tied to the zip code on their access card. There's a 2-bit setting that also is tied to this zip code entry. How else do you think they have been able to keep track of things with all the variations in Indiana, Arizona, Hawaii, et. al.?


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

So why a software fix?


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## leesweet (Mar 13, 2004)

Er, I assumed all the sats gave you was a time hack (time sync to 'now' for GMT/UTC), and the unix O/S on the box still did the DST schedule, based on the timezone setting.

I know every Unix/Windows box in the universe (except Vista...) needs a patch or manual time zone fixes to work with the new extended DST, so... unless someone can say that the O/S on the Tivos is totally different that that, it needs a patch. And you can fake it by the way I outlined.

Not so? If Vader is correct, and realtime DST corrections *are* in the data stream and the location (TZ) are by card Zip, then there is no need for a patch. What are the manual time zone entries for in the Settings screen for, then?


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

The manual settings in the setup are for when you install your equipment, determine dish alignment, set local market (though there's a 2-bit hexidecimal value on the access card that controls this, and that's set by DTV via the stream). 

If one's locals weren't determined by the stream, then consider this: you live in zip code 60611, a Chicago city zip. You take your unit to 90210, Beverly Hills, CA. You re-enter the zip code to reflect 90210. Your OTA listings in the guide will be based on 90210, but your DTV locals in the guide (CH2, CH5, CH7, etc.), AND the time zone and DST settings, will still reflect 60611, which is in the Central Time Zone, of course. Your guide will be 2 hours off. This is because your account has been set up--and your access card written to--by DTV as a 60611/Chicago-based account.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

az_double_eagle said:


> Just being cheeky here, but that's one of the best things about living in Arizona.
> 
> No DST!


Yes. Ben Franklin's worst invention. Probably figured this all out some time after the syphillis made him go mad. 

Doesn't DTV essentially use a NTP protocol to keep all STBs locked to the GPS clock at the uplink, or to some other network time souce such as the U.S. Naval Observatory? If it is a typical NTP server-client relationship, no update should be necessary (especially in AZ), as the clients (STBs) would all follow the server (assuming the server is correct). Of course they may only update the clock on the service download, so there may be an offset sent the day before to be executed at 2 AM the next day so the STB doesn't need to wait for that day's service download, but that should also not be something requiring an update. Since the service download seems to appear about 2 AM anyway, even without the patch it might just affect scheduled recordings between the time change and the next download, at most a couple of hours.

I would hate to think I might have to give up 3.1 just to reset my clock, so I hope no patch is necessary.

DISH could never get this right. There was always a day or so of confusion whenever the time changed, depending on the software version (a new one arrived every couple weeks, breaking more than it fixed). Finally, they had one of my DVRs permanently an hour off, and never could fix it, which might have been the straw that broke the camel's back and sent me back into the arms of DTivo.


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## leesweet (Mar 13, 2004)

Thanks for the details, Vader. I sorta understood all that, but a bit surprised that these boxes are so much smarter than all other server software. I suppose they can be because they have to have a 'network' connection all the time (well, almost) (the satellite). A Windows or Unix server doesn't need an external network connection to a time sync and thus needs a DST table.

So, I retract all the DST stuff, and then ask... what's in 6.3c?  (Probably answered elsewhere, of course...)


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Lord Vader said:


> The manual settings in the setup are for when you install your equipment, determine dish alignment, set local market (though there's a 2-bit hexidecimal value on the access card that controls this, and that's set by DTV via the stream).
> 
> If one's locals weren't determined by the stream, then consider this: you live in zip code 60611, a Chicago city zip. You take your unit to 90210, Beverly Hills, CA. You re-enter the zip code to reflect 90210. Your OTA listings in the guide will be based on 90210, but your DTV locals in the guide (CH2, CH5, CH7, etc.), AND the time zone and DST settings, will still reflect 60611, which is in the Central Time Zone, of course. Your guide will be 2 hours off. This is because your account has been set up--and your access card written to--by DTV as a 60611/Chicago-based account.


Just to clarify (as I am currently doing this). If you have service in California for example and move to Texas for example (without telling DirecTV), all you need to do is manually change the time zone. All guide time info including OTA will be correct except for any LA locals coming from the sat.

Therefore, as a temp solution someone on 3.1 can just change their time zone temporarily (except for the East coast).


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

The manual setting should work for all conus time zones except Eastern (Spring change to DST) since the HR10 Time Zone menu does not have a choice for the time zone just east of Eastern.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

AKA "Atlantic" time zone


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## tucsonbill (Aug 11, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Just being cheeky here, but how confident are you that DirecTV *knows* there's no DST in Arizona?


My guess is that since they've known for the last eight years I've lived here, they still do.


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

Mark Lopez said:


> Just to clarify (as I am currently doing this). If you have service in California for example and move to Texas for example (without telling DirecTV), all you need to do is manually change the time zone. All guide time info including OTA will be correct except for any LA locals coming from the sat.
> 
> Therefore, as a temp solution someone on 3.1 can just change their time zone temporarily (except for the East coast).


Only the OTA guide information pertaining to the channel #s and names will be correct. The non-OTA guide time and related stuff will not. Those are tied to what comes through the datastream from DirecTV based on your account. Your account's zip code is permanently encoded by DTV onto your access card and cannot be changed by anyone else but them, and will change only if you move and call and inform them of your new zip code.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Lord Vader said:


> Only the OTA guide information pertaining to the channel #s and names will be correct. The non-OTA guide time and related stuff will not. Those are tied to what comes through the datastream from DirecTV based on your account. Your account's zip code is permanently encoded by DTV onto your access card and cannot be changed by anyone else but them, and will change only if you move and call and inform them of your new zip code.


Wrong. I've been using two of my HR10s for almost 2 years like this. All of the guide times are fine. Only the LA locals over the sat have the wrong guide time. If what you are saying is true, then they would not have put in the manual time zone setting.

And just to double check what I already knew, I went and changed my time zone again and guess what - the guide times changed.


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

_You cannot manually change the zip code on your access card_. Period. Only DirecTV can do that. This is what controls certain information.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Lord Vader said:


> _You cannot manually change the zip code on your access card_. Period. Only DirecTV can do that. This is what controls certain information.


Dude, no one said anything about the zip code. You can change the time zone. It's right there if you just look. And I can change the zip for OTA because that's exactly what I'm doing.


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

I never said you can't change the zip for OTA (didn't you read my comments above?). That's different. What you cannot change is the zip code that's encoded to your access card, which controls guide information like time and satellite-delivered locals, etc.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Lord Vader said:


> I never said you can't change the zip for OTA (didn't you read my comments above?). That's different. What you cannot change is the zip code that's encoded to your access card, which controls guide information like time and satellite-delivered locals, etc.


<sigh> Do you even have a HR10? Go to Messages & Settings - Settings - Satellite & Off-Air Antenna - Time Zone/Daylight Saving and just change the time zone. Change it from automatic and see for yourself.

<edit> And yes, I know I would need to have DirecTV change it if I wanted my current locals over sat. But that was not the topic of discussion. You can manually change the time zone to whatever you want and the guide times will adjust accordingly.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> Yes. Ben Franklin's worst invention. Probably figured this all out some time after the syphillis made him go mad.
> 
> Doesn't DTV essentially use a NTP protocol to keep all STBs locked to the GPS clock at the uplink, or to some other network time souce such as the U.S. Naval Observatory? If it is a typical NTP server-client relationship, no update should be necessary (especially in AZ), as the clients (STBs) would all follow the server (assuming the server is correct). Of course they may only update the clock on the service download, so there may be an offset sent the day before to be executed at 2 AM the next day so the STB doesn't need to wait for that day's service download, but that should also not be something requiring an update. Since the service download seems to appear about 2 AM anyway, even without the patch it might just affect scheduled recordings between the time change and the next download, at most a couple of hours.
> 
> ...


NTP doesn't support a DST flag nor does it support any time other than UTC. If you depend on NTP, you must have another mechanism to adjust for your local time and your local DST schedule. In most micro computing situations the adjustment mechnaism is applied against the RTC and NTP is used to adjust the RTC if NTP is available.

Of course this is not optimal design, but it comes from the days when most computers weren't network-connected. Even today I suppose a case can be made that non-network-connected computers must be accounted for and an offline (and automatic) adjustment mechanism for local DST must be provided.

There are other mechanisms, like the RF time signal from NIST, that include a DST flag in the signal. This is perfect for stupid devices that can't easily keep a DST rules table or can't be updated to reflect new DST rules. In such cases, the device only need provide a way for the user to indicate UTC offset and whether or not to obey the DST flag. The classic example of this is the "atomic clock" you have on your desk or wall. They traditionally have two switches on them: one to indicate your time zone and one to indicate whether or not you celebrate DST. Since these clocks can't be updated with new DST rules, if there wasn't such a flag available, then the clock would be permanently broken when new changes to DST were written into law. This, of course, would probably be great business for Sharper Image.

I am guessing that on DirecTV hardware without Tivo boxes that the sats beam down UTC and and a DST flag. Settings on the menu, the card, or some combination specify only the UTC offset to apply and whether or not DST is observed.

On Tivo devices from DirecTV, the unit probably uses sat time as a surrogate for NTP and simply uses it to adjust the RTC. Then the offset and DST logic are applied through tz database as Linux uses tz database for its time zone / DST adjustments. Or, perhaps, the parts of the box that are "DirecTV"
use the flag method and the parts that are "Tivo" use the tz database method.

In the end, my guess is that 6.3c just includes an update to tz database.


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

OK, so the big question is: what about all the SD Series 1 and Series 2 DTIVOs???


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

Lord Vader said:


> OK, so the big question is: what about all the SD Series 1 and Series 2 DTIVOs???


I think you saw's TiVoJerry's post here and we are waiting to hear back from him. Seems like all TiVos will need a software update.


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

Indeed. I've got two DSR7000s and five HDVR2s that will be awfully upset if _they're_ not fixed, too.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

i've scanned this thread a bit but still didnt see a definitive answer about 3.1. I let my 6.x machine go to c because i have nothing to lose. but on way will i put my 3.1 machine thru this. I'll see what happens in March. I still dont understand why the software update is needed to be honest. I thought the guide data and time came from the satellite and that tivo was just a box that 'did what it was told'. I thought if you disconnected the wires, it wouldn't know what time it was. 

and assume this update IS mandatory to get correct time. all we'd have to do is just do 3-6 weeks of manual recordings every year to get around it right?


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

I bit the bullet and forced an update from 3.1.5f to 6.3c. Glad I did so far. The menus and guides were SO PAINFULLY slow for me until I did the upgrade. Now they act like they should which is nice. Folders is also a nice added bonus. So far no recording issues.


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## drewba (Nov 25, 2000)

newsposter said:


> and assume this update IS mandatory to get correct time. all we'd have to do is just do 3-6 weeks of manual recordings every year to get around it right?


While I don't think that scenario would occur, very few people would setup manual recording for 4 weeks per year just to stay on 3.1.5. That significantly diminishes the value of having a DVR.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

but having the issues with 6.3 is also diminishing my machines value. I've missed shows on it while 3.1 never has. Also on 6.3 i cant scroll thru the todo list without major errors and resets and lockups


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## drewba (Nov 25, 2000)

newsposter said:


> but having the issues with 6.3 is also diminishing my machines value. I've missed shows on it while 3.1 never has. Also on 6.3 i cant scroll thru the todo list without major errors and resets and lockups


A classic damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario. For me, the likely result would be saying goodbye to the HR10-250.

I'm going to stay on 3.1.5, see what happens on March 11th and evaluate my options at that time.


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## EMoMoney (Oct 30, 2001)

fasTLane said:


> So why a software fix?


I don't ever recall D* saying the 6.3a/b/c updates were because of DST. And if I'm not mistaken the 6.x TiVo software was written way before the new DST bill was signed.


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

The DirecTV forums on direct.com apparently confirmed that 6.3c is related to DST and affects HR10-250s and their OTA info.


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## pdawg17 (Mar 1, 2003)

So I want to make sure I understand this correctly...if I don't do the update even my SPs won't record correctly? Or is it just manual recordings that would have a problem? I want to go back to 3.1.5f so badly (horrible pixelation on OTA Fox and NBC that makes programs unwatchable) but it sounds like I should stay at 6.3c and cross my fingers that the show gets recorded cleanly?


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

pdawg17,
Is your pixellation OTA like a reception breakup or more like a overall image quality degrade?


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## dishdudes (Mar 19, 2006)

pdawg17 said:


> So I want to make sure I understand this correctly...if I don't do the update even my SPs won't record correctly? Or is it just manual recordings that would have a problem? I want to go back to 3.1.5f so badly (horrible pixelation on OTA Fox and NBC that makes programs unwatchable) but it sounds like I should stay at 6.3c and cross my fingers that the show gets recorded cleanly?


Saw this on another forum.. I take it my time will be off but my season passes will still work?

_All DIRECTV TiVo units will require a software upgrade to handle the DST transition. The downloads are being rolled out on different schedules, so not all models have the download available yet.

If they do not get the download in time ....
- Season Passes will continue to record properly
- Manual recordings by time will not record properly
- Clock in info banner and guide at upper right corner will be wrong
- Clock in guide grid will be wrong, but program info will be correct for actual time

So, yes, it looks like Series 1 DirecTV/Tivos will also be getting an update._


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## pdawg17 (Mar 1, 2003)

fasTLane said:


> pdawg17,
> Is your pixellation OTA like a reception breakup or more like a overall image quality degrade?


It doesn't seem like reception breakup...my signal strength is not super high but is no different than before 6.3 and I never had any problems before...at times I even get some weird flickering lines/artifacts onscreen without any pixelation/freezing...it may be something with my box and I guess there is only one way to find out...I hope it is true that SPs will still record with 3.1.5f because that's all I use anyway...

Dishdudes-

Can you post a link to where you saw your statement?


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

Here is, I believe, the post quoted by dishdudes.


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## GreyGhost00 (Mar 11, 2004)

I can live with the above issues for three weeks. It is a fair trade-off for zero recording problems with 3.1.5f


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

TiVoJerry has now posted final disposition on the subject here.


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## pdawg17 (Mar 1, 2003)

Well, I just went back to 3.1.5f so we'll see what happens on 3/11...


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

well my 3.1 machine shows stuff being recorded just fine, but one hour earlier, so i can't see a single issue with any recordings at all and what all the fuss is about (unless you use tivo as a clock)


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## bpratt (Nov 20, 2004)

newsposter said:


> well my 3.1 machine shows stuff being recorded just fine, but one hour earlier, so i can't see a single issue with any recordings at all and what all the fuss is about (unless you use tivo as a clock)


Now that we can see 3/11 in our guides, everything looks like it will record OK, except the clock and the guide will both be off 1 hour. The only problem we should have is if we have set a manual recording. Those would need to be adjusted 1 hour between March 11 and April 1. After April 1, everything will be back to normal.


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## tivoboy (Jan 14, 2002)

What I have noticed lately, is that in the future, after 3/11, the guide is showing everything as artificially 1 HOUR earlier. So, maybe that is how they are going to make up for the change, for those who don't change?

For example, prime time in PST starts at 20:00, but it is showing 19:00 starts.


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## ctromp (Sep 26, 2006)

I'm wondering how many are going to stick with v3.1.5f. I do plan to. I can live with adjusting manual recoedings for a few weeks. My unit has been rock solid so I hate to even mess with 6.3c. What about you?


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## captenblack (Aug 6, 2004)

ctromp said:


> I'm wondering how many are going to stick with v3.1.5f. I do plan to. I can live with adjusting manual recoedings for a few weeks. My unit has been rock solid so I hate to even mess with 6.3c. What about you?


Same here. I don't have any manual recordings and all Season Passes look fine on the To Do list, so I'm not going to worry about it (for now).


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## tivoboy (Jan 14, 2002)

on the HD tivo, I have NO manual recordings, and as I posted above the quide is showing things 1 hour early, so I am going to just leave it on 3.1f, and see what happenes.

#1 GF records IDOL (I am man enough to admit it, were it the case!  on the 2-1 here in the bay area, so drop outs would be BAAADD!


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## shortkud (Dec 5, 2005)

Can anyone define manual recordings? Does that include selecting a program to record in the future or is that just saying "record this channel from this time to this time"?


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

press Tivo then 7 to see what is manual 

it's you setting time and channel specifically and not using the guide


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

My 3.5 Tivo is working just fine and I rarely ever use manual recordings. To make things simple I just left my clock on the wall to 3.5 Tivo time


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## OmarG (May 11, 2004)

My HD recording of "Return of the Jedi" off HBO went off just fine this morning on 3.1 version. I don't have any manual recordings either, so I think I'm going to ride it out until April 1. Guide is one hour early, but everything seems to align just fine when it comes to recording from the guide/season passes.

Haven't had any reboots or audio dropouts, so I think I'll pass on 6.2x for now.


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## bpratt (Nov 20, 2004)

I'm staying on 3.1.5f until 6.x is more stable.


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

OmarG said:


> My HD recording of "Return of the Jedi" off HBO went off just fine this morning on 3.1 version.


*Glad to hear that.*

*Good job.*


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## altan (Jan 5, 2003)

Lord Vader said:


> *Glad to hear that.*
> 
> *Good job.*


(It's so painfully obvious, but I had to write it...)

I'm shocked that Darth is pleased with someone recording RotJ! Not a good end for his evil self!


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## gdavisloop1 (Aug 14, 2004)

March 11th has come and gone, what happened to this thread?
Looks like all the automatic recordings will still be made correctly (both the TiVo and the guide are equally wrong about the time), but my manual recorings (and I have tons) are all wrong.

I'm going to try the manual time zone change (fortunately I'm not Eastern).

Meanwhile, would be nice if some people reported the results of going to the 6.3 software.

thanks!
--Gary


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## gdavisloop1 (Aug 14, 2004)

I changed my time zone 'east' by one zone, and that corrected the time and the guide, but unfortunately, it also moved all my manual recordings up by one hour, so they are all still wrong. Of course, I suppose I can re-enter all the manual recordings manually...

--Gary


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## bpratt (Nov 20, 2004)

Thought I would report that 3.1.5f still recorded all my season passes the last couple of days. The time in the guide and the time are both 1 hour early, but everything has recorded like it should on both units. I don't have any manual recordings.


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

gdavis and bpratt, try adjusting manually your DST settings on your units. I'm in the Central Time Zone. When I went to Settings-->TIVO/DVR setup--> Daylight Saving Time, there was a check mark next to "automatically detect from satellite." I unchecked that, clicked on Central for my time zone, clicked select, then it took me to the next screen where it asked me if my area observed DST. There was a check next to yes. I deselected that and checked on this screen "automatically detect from satellite."

I then went to live TV and the guide and clock timer were correct. Furthermore, all recordings, including manual ones, recorded correctly.


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## bpratt (Nov 20, 2004)

Lord Vader said:


> gdavis and bpratt, try adjusting manually your DST settings on your units. I'm in the Central Time Zone. When I went to Settings-->TIVO/DVR setup--> Daylight Saving Time, there was a check mark next to "automatically detect from satellite." I unchecked that, clicked on Central for my time zone, clicked select, then it took me to the next screen where it asked me if my area observed DST. There was a check next to yes. I deselected that and checked on this screen "automatically detect from satellite."
> 
> I then went to live TV and the guide and clock timer were correct. Furthermore, all recordings, including manual ones, recorded correctly.


So if I make those changes, what happens to the times on 4/1/07 when my 3.1.5f systems thinks its now daylight savings time?


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

Now how am I supposed to know that??? I didn't even know what I did would work. Just wait until April 1st and see if you need to adjust your settings back to what they were. My guess is that you won't have to.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

note we have this issue again coming up soon!

I'm sure some of you forgot about it so figured I'd remind you why your shows are early next week


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

It only affected manual recordings .... SP's were never a problem.


newsposter said:


> note we have this issue again coming up soon!
> 
> I'm sure some of you forgot about it so figured I'd remind you why your shows are early next week


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## jaobrien6 (Oct 24, 2002)

newsposter said:


> note we have this issue again coming up soon!
> 
> I'm sure some of you forgot about it so figured I'd remind you why your shows are early next week


Heh. I totally forgot this morning, it took me a couple minutes to realize why my tivos had the wrong time, and football was scheduled to start at the wrong time, too.


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

Hmmm...all my DTIVOs show the correct time today, and they're all modified and unable to be updated automatically.


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

Mine is mod'd no phone and it shows the incorrect time. HOWEVER things did record correctly. TiVo in action!


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

it's 3/9 this year but the sentiments are the same


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## lpennock (Feb 13, 2003)

My 6.2 HDVR2 shows the wrong time but does record regular shows correctly. However, I have also have time based repeating programs in place, and all those are broken. It has a phone line and has been making regular calls.

Any ideas on when this will be fixed? Do we just have to wait until April?

-Lewis


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

What version of software are you using? Check it and report back here what it is.


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## lpennock (Feb 13, 2003)

Beyond 6.2 I don't know what the "a" or whatever other versions are, but under system info is says: 6.2 01-2-151

I believe this is the same version that I installed with InstantCake about 2 weeks ago.

-Lewis


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