# TiVo HD - Information for SA CableCard Users



## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Hey guys, another update regarding the progress being made.

We've identified a potential fix for the issues some of you have experienced with Scientific Atlanta CableCards, and it's testing very well in beta. It's a change that needs to soak in testing for a bit yet (to set expectations, we're looking at minimum a couple of weeks). So far, so good though.

Again, it appears that a software update will resolve the issue. I'll keep you posted when the new update is ready.

Thanks again,
Pony


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## hank12345 (Sep 27, 2005)

TiVoPony said:


> Hey guys, another update regarding the progress being made.
> 
> We've identified a potential fix for the issues some of you have experienced with Scientific Atlanta CableCards, and it's testing very well in beta. It's a change that needs to soak in testing for a bit yet (to set expectations, we're looking at minimum a couple of weeks). So far, so good though.
> 
> ...


Thanks Pony, for keeping us informed... I continue to have faith!

Hank


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

be sure to send Thanks :up: to the engineers who are working so hard on this and getting real progress when it counts.


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## foamy909 (Mar 29, 2005)

TiVoPony said:


> We've identified a potential fix for the issues some of you have experienced with Scientific Atlanta CableCards, and it's testing very well in beta. It's a change that needs to soak in testing for a bit yet (to set expectations, we're looking at minimum a couple of weeks). So far, so good though.


Just curious if this potential fix would apply to the Series 3 as well as TiVoHD. I don't have a huge pixelation problem with my SA cablecards, but I would be interested if it helps with some of the problems on that platform as well...


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> be sure to send Thanks :up: to the engineers who are working so hard on this and getting real progress when it counts.


Being a software developer, I can appreciate that these kinds of issues are REALLY tough to diagnose. Finding a consistent scenario to reproduce the problem can take forever. What can make it worse, is that when you use a version of the software with instrumentation to catch/log the problem, sometimes the problem will go away  since the timing and memory layout isn't quite the same. And when you think you have the fix, you just have to let it age for a while in testing, like a fine red wine


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

TiVoPony said:


> Hey guys, another update regarding the progress being made.
> 
> We've identified a potential fix for the issues some of you have experienced with Scientific Atlanta CableCards, and it's testing very well in beta. It's a change that needs to soak in testing for a bit yet (to set expectations, we're looking at minimum a couple of weeks). So far, so good though.
> 
> ...


Is this a fix that can be refit for the Series 3 as well? Many here are experiencing macroblocking using SA cable cards with the S3 including me!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

CharlesH said:


> Being a software developer, I can appreciate that these kinds of issues are REALLY tough to diagnose. Finding a consistent scenario to reproduce the problem can take forever. What can make it worse, is that when you use a version of the software with instrumentation to catch/log the problem, sometimes the problem will go away  since the timing and memory layout isn't quite the same. And when you think you have the fix, you just have to let it age for a while in testing, like a fine red wine


just to clarify to be sure, my post was a sincere thnaks and not a sarcastic one. For the reasons Charles list I know the engineers are working very hard to produce this kind of progress


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> just to clarify to be sure, that was a sincere thanks and not a sarcastic one.


Absolutely sincere. I've been in computer science/software development for over 30 years, and can relate to these kinds of problems.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Just a little reassurance for anyone who might still be experiencing picture quality issues.

In December, I'll have been a TiVo customer for 5 years. In that time, I've seen TiVo address several issues and work diligently to resolve them. Unfortunately, stuff happens. Anything software-based is going to have some degree of issues with drivers and coding. But I feel completely safe in saying that TiVo will resolve any outstanding issues with the software. 

And we're fortunate that TiVo employees actually post here from time to time - they don't have to. I own many other products where the support staff doesn't participate in product forums, and there's no way to put a "face" with a name.

So yeah, everyone keep the faith - it'll be ok. 

I have no stake in TiVo other than the equipment I own. And I don't consider myself a "fanboy" or anything, just someone who's had pretty good luck with a damn fine product.


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## doormat (Sep 15, 2004)

I'll be eagerly waiting for the update. And I'm ready to be a beta tester if called upon! I get MBing every minute or two on my SA cable cards.


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## Globular (Jun 9, 2004)

Thank you Pony! I sincerely appreciate the update(s) here on the forum. The THD is a kicka** product, and this fix will make the wait worthwhile.

-Matt


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

<paging Chimpware>: You still here? It's always darkest before the dawn, man.


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

I am here, and hoping the same as many that this works. Last 7 days for me, but I had my hopes up before and they were crushed. I have kept my tongue as not too many people were intersted in what I was saying.

It's not fixed yet, but I hope they get it...


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## dolfer (Nov 3, 2000)

Thanks for the update Pony! You have my express written consent to shoot the beta to my box right now! 

My first big TV "event" is September 9th - The U.S. Open Men's Final and the premiere of Curb Your Enthusiasm. Let's shoot for that date as the target for the fix.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVotion said:


> Just a little reassurance for anyone who might still be experiencing picture quality issues.
> 
> In December, I'll have been a TiVo customer for 5 years. In that time, I've seen TiVo address several issues and work diligently to resolve them. Unfortunately, stuff happens. Anything software-based is going to have some degree of issues with drivers and coding. But I feel completely safe in saying that TiVo will resolve any outstanding issues with the software.
> 
> ...


+1 :up:

Your post sums it up quite well.

Given Tivo's track record, I really don't understand all the Chicken Little posts about various issues.

Yes, it would be nice if they were all fixed before release, but that's not always practical.

(and, thanks Pony!)


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Chimpware said:


> I am here, and hoping the same as many that this works. Last 7 days for me, but I had my hopes up before and they were crushed. I have kept my tongue as not too many people were intersted in what I was saying.


It's not that anyone wasn't interested, it's just that you didn't have anything new to say. 

Glad to see you haven't given up. I hope you will post your experiences after the fix is released.


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## nenemc (Jun 12, 2007)

is this SA fix for pixelation/macroblocking (viewing quality issues) or is it for actually tuning in channels( which I'm having trouble with)?


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> It's not that anyone wasn't interested, it's just that you didn't have anything new to say.
> 
> Glad to see you haven't given up. I hope you will post your experiences after the fix is released.


Always posted new information, just no new positive results, and then refused to let the fanboys beat me down


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Chimpware said:


> Always posted new information, just no new positive results, and then refused to let the fanboys beat me down


Except that no one was trying to beat you down ... just advocating a little patience and trying to discourage folks from falling into the Chicken Little syndrome because history has shown that Tivo would likely release a fix relatively quickly ... much as the initial post in this thread indicates.


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

Thanks for the latest info Pony. Am curious why the problems seem to be more related with the SA cards, hum...


Now if you'd say there is an software patch to enable the SATA port, that would make my day....

How soon after the Series 3 Tivo of last September 17th, was there a software update that enabled the SATA port on that model?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

nenemc said:


> is this SA fix for pixelation/macroblocking (viewing quality issues) or is it for actually tuning in channels( which I'm having trouble with)?


The title of the thread specifically mentions SA cards and the issues posted in this forum almost all exclusively deal with macroblocking. CableCard authorization issues are the fault of the cable company, not TiVo.


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## Tallguy001 (Sep 5, 2003)

Great news. Thanks for the hard work.


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## thewebgal (Aug 10, 2007)

TiVoPony said:


> Hey guys, another update regarding the progress being made.
> 
> Again, it appears that a software update will resolve the issue. I'll keep you posted when the new update is ready.
> 
> ...


Yep - we have the Pixel problem with SA cards on Cox in Fairfax, VA.
Thanks VERY much for all you folks are doing to sort this out. 
We've already taken a couple financial hits to go with TIVOHD instead of the Cox DVR - and love the TIVO features and user friendly nature of the system. Online Scheduling - what a concept!

Your excellent customer service is now another reason I'm glad we went with TIVOHD instead of a CoxBox.

Good luck!


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> Except that no one was trying to beat you down ... just advocating a little patience and trying to discourage folks from falling into the Chicken Little syndrome because history has shown that Tivo would likely release a fix relatively quickly ... much as the initial post in this thread indicates.


You seem dying to engage me in debate at every turn, or have a very strong need to have the last word.

Might I remind you this is not actually fixed yet, we had a thread already with a "fix" that did not work for many of us using SA Scards if you remember.

I am going to toss this at the end so you can have the last word:



FanBoy (AKA jh3) said:


> history has shown that Tivo would likely release a fix relatively quickly


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## d_anders (Oct 12, 2000)

Squeeky wheels help focus attention on needed fixes. Squeeky wheels are painful to listen too, and sometimes not always the right ones to grease right away...but again necessary sometimes to focus attention.

Some prefer a more collaborative approach to fixing and addressing the issue, but that said Chimpware is our squeeky wheel. Sometimes painful, but if his posts have at all helped with ramping up the priority on this fix, then his method was successful. 

I personally think there are better ways to address a problem (otherwise you can be asked to leave), but in the end we all want a desirable result. This is a public forum, and there are going to be different voices.

In a closed beta testing, there are norms for behaviour and working through issues, but since we all got placed into this very open, public, and chaotic path, we can't be overly critical with each other of how we're communicating and coming to a solution.

It's up to TiVo to provide a better means of communications to address these types of problems better in the future. Whatever means TiVo has to beta test new equipment, this has obviously been lesson's learned scenario. I'm sure that they will improve their beta testing with the series 3 cable card products and make some changes with their approach. Obviously, whatever occured was not done fully and has resulted in a full on public beta testing.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

d_anders said:


> Squeeky wheels help focus attention on needed fixes. Squeeky wheels are painful to listen too, and sometimes not always the right ones to grease right away...but again necessary sometimes to focus attention..


all true, but I am sure TiVo has been focused on this issue before the first posts in this forum appeared. Feedback on specifics, such as SA card troubles in this last round are more the value obtained here.


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## d_anders (Oct 12, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> all true, but I am sure TiVo has been focused on this issue before the first posts in this forum appeared. Feedback on specifics, such as SA card troubles in this last round are more the value obtained here.


Agreed, but they certainly didn't provide a communications mechanism until as of late.

"We're aware of the issue and we're addressing it" isn't enough to channel and focus a very public discussion....they had an opportunity, but didn't take it, so they left it all open and ripe for all types of behavior.

You know what I do with very vocal and passionate people like Chimpware where I work...who are complaining about specific problems but I don't like their behavior? I get them to be part of the solution.

TiVo made some calls about releasing these boxes when they did...they needed to have a communications and mitigation plan in place to handle a public beta...even if it's one they didn't plan on having...With a very passionate and engaged customer base they need too.


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

d_anders said:


> You know what I do with very vocal and passionate people like Chimpware where I work...who are complaining about specific problems but I don't like their behavior? I get them to be part of the solution.


Funny you should say that I would have been happy to work on the issue with Tivo, and even offered to many times during my discussion with CSRs. I would even be willing to let them test the beta on my 2 Tivo HDs and provide feedback if they are interested.

If you read my posts in total (a lot I know) I tried everything suggested by everyone including Tivo CSRs, Cablevision Techs. as well as people on this board.


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## melh12345 (May 23, 2006)

rainwater said:


> The title of the thread specifically mentions SA cards and the issues posted in this forum almost all exclusively deal with macroblocking. CableCard authorization issues are the fault of the cable company, not TiVo.


 Just for the record, when my second SA cablecard would not authorize, Tivo replaced the box, and the very same cablecards worked just fine.
Sadly, even after the cards were authorized, the pixelation and sound dropout occurred at least once a minute and the Tivo HD was pretty much unwatchable. Tivo offered level 2 support within 72 hours, but that seemed like a long time to me.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

melh12345 said:


> Just for the record, when my second SA cablecard would not authorize, Tivo replaced the box, and the very same cablecards worked just fine.
> Sadly, even after the cards were authorized, the pixelation and sound dropout occurred at least once a minute and the Tivo HD was pretty much unwatchable. Tivo offered level 2 support within 72 hours, but that seemed like a long time to me.


In order to authorize them on the new box you had to give the cable company new data and host ids. Chances are the box was just authorized incorrectly to begin with. It is doubtful the issue was really the box despite what customer service may have told you.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

d_anders said:


> Agreed, but they certainly didn't provide a communications mechanism until as of late.
> 
> "We're aware of the issue and we're addressing it" isn't enough to channel and focus a very public discussion....they had an opportunity, but didn't take it, so they left it all open and ripe for all types of behavior.


 I would also like full info but TiVo has to vet what it says publicly and any real details would delve into proprietary knowledge of how a TiVo DVR works so it seems that the message that started this thread was fairly specific and gave a full account including when to expect the fix.



> You know what I do with very vocal and passionate people like Chimpware where I work...who are complaining about specific problems but I don't like their behavior? I get them to be part of the solution.


 Yep. I take notes that include what parts of the design I would include the person on for next time. nothing worse than a focus group that says "whatever" Now in this specific case though, chimpware would be one data point in a situation that could have multiple problem points. Also he is a public resource and thus TiVo would have to tread carefully for the same reasons I listed above. if Chimpware stays with TiVo products then hopefully he fills out the beta application at www.tivo.com 

I would also point out that TiVo has been active in these forums in the past for other issues as well. Of course "active enough" is a matter of individual perspective. YMMV


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

In the real world, you can beta test products until you're blue in the face. Regardless of how much observation and feedback you get in a limited, controlled environment, you're not going to be able to account for everything.

But let's be realistic. None of us can quantify how much testing TiVo does with a product - not with whom, not under what circumstances, and not for how long. None of us know; only TiVo knows. But rest assured, and this is from my own personal experience with the product: TiVo is not about to let issues with the product go unresolved. The Series 3 and the THD represent TiVo's newest generation of equipment, and this equipment is the new face of the company. For that reason alone TiVo is going to focus all efforts to ensuring the products works reliably under as conditions as possible. They'd be foolish not to, and TiVo has a reputation for listening and responding. How many other products do you own where you actually SEE ranking members of the company listening, and responding? Try that with your GE Microwave oven.

Again, I'm not saying this to be a cheerleader for the company. I'm just saying this because I've seen it over the course of nearly 5 years using the product. I'd never invest new money in TiVo hardware if I didn't have this level of confidence in it.

I respect anyone who is concerned about the issues and I don't expect everyone to have the same confidence as me. That's ok. I'm just hoping that some of you will feel better about your situations reading this and perhaps not worry as much. Even though these issues are important to folks, and rightfully so, this isn't the massively detremental, crippling problem some people are making it out to be. Within a couple of weeks, barring any specific issues that people might have with equipment, signal levels, etc. within their homes, most people will be "fixed" and all of this debate will soon be forgotten.

Faith, people. Faith.


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## JacksTiVo (Jan 7, 2006)

Thanks Pony. I have delayed purchasing an HD given the issues with the SA cards which I would have to use. I believe that the TCF has two important functions (among many others). It gives direct feedback to TiVo engineers on product issues and it helps others who are not inclined to be early adapters of new technology a chance to monitor progress in eliminating bugs before their purchase.

A possible lesson for the TiVo developers: Beta testing should include users located in cable service provider areas that use both Motorola and Scientific-Atlantic cable cards. Since most cable providers require their technicians to install the cable cards was TiVo concerned that word of the prototype HD would leak out?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Chimpware said:


> Might I remind you this is not actually fixed yet, we had a thread already with a "fix" that did not work for many of us using SA Scards if you remember.


How could I not remember? You reminded us about 50 times. 

And the previous fix never claimed to specifically address the SA problems. According to TivoPony, this one does.

You want to call me a "fanboy" for advocating that people have faith that Tivo would address this, based on past history? Fine. I've been with Tivo quite a few years now, through multiple releases on multiple platforms and base my comments on that experience.

You want to believe that the volume of your posts on this issue influenced Tivo in any way? You can do that too.

I'm still convinced, based on the information you have previously provided, that in addition to whatever the SA related code issues are, you have a source signal problem that makes matters worse. You don't seem open to that possibility, but would rather put all pixelization issues in Tivo's lap.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I agree. I think if anything, perhaps these units are sensitive to certain conditions. I also strongly believe that in some cases, it's not a driver/software issue entirely, but other variables are influencing the problem. What you have here is reasonably complicated piece of electronics that isn't always going to play the same in every single household. Unfortunately, TiVo will take the lion's share of the blame regardless, whether they deserve it or not.

I sympathize with Chimpware's situation, seriously I do. People are frustrated. Between the cost of the box and the subscription it's a lot of money to let "ride". 

The more people who report the issue and provide detail about their exact setup, the easier it will be for TiVo to recreate the issue in their testing areas. IMO, you need to believe Pony when he says they are making headway. I've been around here long enough to know that the man speaks with responsibility. He won't confirm something unless he's reasonably confident about it (and hey, I wouldn't either) - so if the guy says they are working on it and they see a resolution, I'd probably believe him.


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> I'm still convinced, based on the information you have previously provided, that in addition to whatever the SA related code issues are, you have a source signal problem that makes matters worse. You don't seem open to that possibility, but would rather put all pixelization issues in Tivo's lap.


Still the Fanboy signal issue theory huh? It is really tiresome debating you on this forum and part of the reason some of my posts seem redundant is having to repost the same information in response to yet another "genius" claiming my issue is signal related.

I had Cablevision here 3 times, they checked the signal everywhere, no problems, all within range (not just strength, all other parameters listed in separate post). Just in case redid all the connections, including inside wall outlets. Disconnected the 1 splitter I had and went directly to Tivo HD. Ran a dry line from the road in through my front door to the Tivo. Ran a dry line from across the street just to check further. All with no affect on the pixelation. I have 93+ on mist channels and the lowest I have is 87 (rarely but to be fair I will report it). Fluctuation is almost 0. I also have an 8300HD sitting right next to the Tivo HD and it has never had any pixelation. All in all 12 hours of signal troubleshooting without finding anything.

Sorry, but not signal related.


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## chicodoggy (Jul 30, 2007)

Will tivo2go ever be opened up for the tivo hd and if so, when?


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

I vote for Chimpware to get the #1 spot on the new priority list when it's available.

Even better, make him a double secret beta tester on the new version. Since Chimpware is such a vocal customer, for better or for worse, and he's 30 day return date is looming, it seems that it can't hurt to try.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Chimpware said:


> part of the reason some of my posts seem redundant is having to repost the same information in response to yet another "genius" claiming my issue is signal related.


If you would read all the words, I'm not saying all your problem is signal related, just that it's more likely than not that some of it is. And I don't claim to be a "genius"; just someone who went through a very similar situation as you have.



> I had Cablevision here 3 times, they checked the signal everywhere, no problems, all within range (not just strength, all other parameters listed in separate post). Just in case redid all the connections, including inside wall outlets. Disconnected the 1 splitter I had and went directly to Tivo HD. Ran a dry line from the road in through my front door to the Tivo. Ran a dry line from across the street just to check further. All with no affect on the pixelation. I have 93+ on mist channels and the lowest I have is 87 (rarely but to be fair I will report it). Fluctuation is almost 0. I also have an 8300HD sitting right next to the Tivo HD and it has never had any pixelation. All in all 12 hours of signal troubleshooting without finding anything.


And all of that could be meaningless. If you have a clean signal close to 0 dBmv, then you should be seeing 100 on the Tivo signal strength meter (which is fairly useless anyway, when it comes to diagnosing signal related issues). The 8300 can run with a hot signal, w/o issue. The Tivo S3 (and I presume the THD) are far more sensitive to quality signals. If they didn't take measurements at the Tivo input for the various combinations, then they didn't do a complete job.


> Sorry, but not signal related.


Maybe not. But I thought the same thing as you did when I first got my S3 and saw many of the same things you reported. I was convinced it was a Tivo issue and I couldn't have a cable signal problem, especially since I saw no problems on a Comcast DVR, but only on the S3.

I was wrong and it took multiple visits by Comcast senior techs before they figured out it was their problem, not Tivos.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> .....
> 
> Maybe not. But I thought the same thing as you did when I first got my S3 and saw many of the same things you reported. I was convinced it was a Tivo issue and I couldn't have a cable signal problem, especially since I saw no problems on a Comcast DVR, but only on the S3.
> 
> I was wrong and it took multiple visits by Comcast senior techs before they figured out it was their problem, not Tivos.


So you're saying that the S3 (and maybe the HD?) has poor dynamic range, the cable company's DVR doesn't, and that's the cable company's problem? Or do I misunderstand you?


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

The more people who report the issue and provide detail about their exact setup, the easier it will be for TiVo to recreate the issue in their testing areas. IMO, you need to believe Pony when he says they are making headway. I've been around here long enough to know that the man speaks with responsibility. He won't confirm something unless he's reasonably confident about it (and hey, I wouldn't either) - so if the guy says they are working on it and they see a resolution, I'd probably believe him. 

I couldn't agree more... If the people that complain here about the problem with their Tivo would focus on more productive measures, "calling Tivo" then report their on going problems at that time. All of this would/will provide us with what we seek... A Tivo that works as intended...


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## dolfer (Nov 3, 2000)

I am hoping (and assuming) that the update will also fix the various audio-related problems as well? Right???


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

chicodoggy said:


> Will tivo2go ever be opened up for the tivo hd and if so, when?


Discussed in other threads. Perhaps late this year, in a limited fashion that will allow transfers of certain unprotected content.


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## Blackjacker (Aug 23, 2007)

Longtime lurker, but figured this near-and-dear-to-my-heart topic deserved my first post - thank you, TiVoPony, for keeping us updated on this!


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## silypuddy (Jun 4, 2007)

Well I just got my two SA cablecards installed by Comcast and now I have legos on my screen and audio drops. I'll be calling Tivo later today to open a case/file a problem.

Hope this fix comes out soon...

Can I just pop the cards out and return back to the basic world until the fix comes out?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

RoyK said:


> So you're saying that the S3 (and maybe the HD?) has poor dynamic range, the cable company's DVR doesn't, and that's the cable company's problem? Or do I misunderstand you?


You misunderstand me. I haven't seen anything that indicates that the Tivo boxes have poor dynamic range.

There's a very good post from the September/October timeframe that explains why some cable DVRs handle poor quality signals (or, if I remember correctly, hot signals) better.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

silypuddy said:


> Can I just pop the cards out and return back to the basic world until the fix comes out?


Yes. Power down the box, pop the cards (but leave them in the slots so you don't mix them up), power up, rerun guided setup.


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## silypuddy (Jun 4, 2007)

jfh3 said:


> Yes. Power down the box, pop the cards (but leave them in the slots so you don't mix them up), power up, rerun guided setup.


Is there any way to power down other than putting in standy mode and then pulling the power cord?


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## gespears (Aug 10, 2007)

Hey TiVopony, as a reward for all of us being so patient  , or not so patient  , please secretly enable the eSATA port. We won't tell anybody, Promise


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

silypuddy said:


> Is there any way to power down other than putting in standy mode and then pulling the power cord?


Nope. Pulling the power cord is the "off" switch.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> You misunderstand me. I haven't seen anything that indicates that the Tivo boxes have poor dynamic range.
> 
> There's a very good post from the September/October timeframe that explains why some cable DVRs handle poor quality signals (or, if I remember correctly, hot signals) better.


Sorry I misunderstood you. It's just that your post maintains that the boxes have a problem with 'hot' signals (and your cable company DVR doesn't) and other posts indicate the same situation with lower level signals and since dynamic range is the means of expressing the spread of power levels over which a device operates satisfactorily I just jumped to the conclusion.....

nevermind.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

RoyK said:


> Sorry I misunderstood you. It's just that your post maintains that the boxes have a problem with 'hot' signals (and your cable company DVR doesn't) and other posts indicate the same situation with lower level signals and since dynamic range is the means of expressing the spread of power levels over which a device operates satisfactorily I just jumped to the conclusion.....
> 
> nevermind.


OK, I'll say it. Your conclusion is correct. That is the general definition of dynamic range the way I was taught as well. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Except in the Tivo forums, where it's always the cable company's fault. 

Tivos does not appear to be using robust RF hardware. It feels like a design issue to me. If all other devices attached to your cable system (TVs, cable modems, other DVRs) are working just fine, and one device is not, guess whose problem it is? Even if the signals were slightly out-of-spec, you wouldn't design your product assuming each of the millions of installaton locations were exactly in spec. Probably what happened is that they tried to make it robust, but it just didn't end up being as robust as they wanted.

You'd think the S3 would have been a lesson learned for the HD, but I guess if you're trying to make a cheaper DVR you're not going to improve on the RF design. Hopefully the S4 will have these problems fixed.

I guess the real test will be these cable co. DVRs with CableCards in them -- we'll have to see how they behave. They are the closest things to Tivos.

[edited to fix typo and add]:

Yes, some people may have more than one issue. But unless you fix the known bugs first, why should you spend time and effort chasing down other possible causes? If Chimpware has a signal problem, even though he has had trained professionals go to his house several times and been told it's not, he won't know for sure what his Tivo's problem is until the SA card fix is rolled out.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

One week since this notice was posted. Let's hope for the release next week.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

BobCamp1 said:


> You'd think the S3 would have been a lesson learned for the HD, but I guess if you're trying to make a cheaper DVR you're not going to improve on the RF design. Hopefully the S4 will have these problems fixed.


Just because the RF design is not what you apparently want it to be, doesn't mean there is/was a design problem.

It's not reasonable for Tivo to expect a "perfect" signal, but it is also not reasonable to expect that Tivo will over-design RF to compensate for poor cable company practices (which is apparently what Motorola and the other DVR makers that sell boatloads of DVRs to the MSOs do).

Running with a hot signal, even to boxes with greater tolerances, is not a good thing.

I own the Tivo. I want it to have trouble if fed an out of spec signal - I want to CORRECT the root cause of a problem, not COMPENSATE for it, especially if I own the hardware!

(And, if you read page 40 of the NCTA's filing with the FCC the other day, they pretty much admit they required the vendors to overcompensate for poor signal quality, though they put an entirely different spin on it)


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## dolfer (Nov 3, 2000)

bkdtv said:


> One week since this notice was posted. Let's hope for the release next week.


You are worse than me!  However, I agree that it sure would be great if someone could give us a more firm date...


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> Just because the RF design is not what you apparently want it to be, doesn't mean there is/was a design problem.
> 
> It's not reasonable for Tivo to expect a "perfect" signal, but it is also not reasonable to expect that Tivo will over-design RF to compensate for poor cable company practices (which is apparently what Motorola and the other DVR makers that sell boatloads of DVRs to the MSOs do).


The TiVo HD cable RF front end is a P.O.S., at least the unit I own.

Forget about over-design, my front end *DOESN'T WORK WITH IN-SPEC SIGNALS*.

AMERICAN NATIONAL STANDARD
ANSI/SCTE 105 2005
_Requirement 19: The Uni-Directional Receiving Device shall tune
and receive digital 256-QAM signals over the RF input level range
signal from 12 dBmV to +15 dBmV._

I have posted previously how I had lots of trouble with an input of -9 dBmV and some trouble with an input of -6 dBmV. I'm now running about +5 dBmV and the box seems to work OK.

My original signal was weaker than the "nominal" 0 dBmv, but the P.O.S. TiVo should have been able to decode it. My HDTV tuner has absolutely no problem decoding that signal level.

If I were the CEO of TiVO, I'd personally escort the people who designed this product out the door. There are probably 10,000 engineers in Silicon Valley who could have done a better job with the hardware and with the software.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> The TiVo HD cable RF front end is a P.O.S., at least the unit I own.


Then you should exchange your box under warranty.

Unless ALL Tivo HD boxes fail to meet the spec, your comments seem a bit harsh and unfair.

I don't think the Tivo should overcompensate, but it certainly should be able to handle in spec signals.

In my case (with the original S3), my signal was out of spec, a Motorola box handled it, the S3 didn't. When the signal was corrected to in spec (+3 now IIRC), the S3 worked fine (and I don't have any issue with two THD boxes either)

Obviously, Tivo could have designed a box more forgiving to poor RF. But at what cost?

It's not that hard to get a good cable signal - why should Tivo have to jump through hoops to compensate for bad ones?

If the THD doesn't work with in spec signals, it's Tivo's problem. If the signals are out of spec, put the blame where it belongs.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> If the THD doesn't work with in spec signals, it's Tivo's problem. If the signals are out of spec, put the blame where it belongs.


It's unwise to generalize from a sample size of one. (But that doesn't stop most people and won't stop me!)

I believe my signal level was within spec. But the TiVo HD didn't work reliably until I boosted the level. The most likely cause is one of these:

1) poor RF design
or
2) defective hardware not caught in manufacturing test
or
3) the unit broke after manufacturing

For #1, it would have been very simple for design engineers to characterize the sensitivity of the RF front end. If the designers didn't do it, the validation team should have. Did this product have a written hardware validation plan? I'd love to read it!

For #2, TiVo's subcontractor is building 1000's of these boxes. How hard would it have been for them to have some sort of RF test fixture on the production floor? This fixture would present various RF levels to the two RF inputs. Software would check proper tuning under multiple conditions. A test like this could be fully automated and only take a few seconds to run. But most likely this test isn't in place.

For #3, I've spent many years designing hardware and writing software. It's possible the box broke after being built, but I'd take 100:1 odds that the correct answer is #1 or #2, and not #3.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> It's unwise to generalize from a sample size of one. (But that doesn't stop most people and won't stop me!)


My sample size of one was the opposite of yours. My TiVo HD performed flawlessly with a marginal signal somewhere in the vicinity of -10 or -12 dbmV. There are other variables that are at least if not more important, like S/N ratio.


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*Cable companies*
seem to know that they cannot deliver a perfect signal to every box, everywhere, every time. The boxes they buy and rent to customers are hardware setup to allow for these inconsistencies.

TiVo chose to believe that thier boxes would always get the best possible signal. Since TiVo chose this method it is necessary to implement a software fix to compensate. Hopefully this fix arrives soon, so QAM mapping and SDV tuning can be addressed...


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## navman (Aug 11, 2007)

Talked to tivo customer service about pixellation issues on my tivo hd. was told they released a new software a few days ago that should fix the issue for people with SA cards. On asking them as to why I hadnt gotten this software update despite forcing several connections, i was told something to the effect of "it is a rolling release" being tested on limited tivohds and everyone should get it soon. Was I being lied to or is this the truth. The new software according to them was 8.3, which I thought was for TivoHD's older sibling. By the way I talked to Cal, he is a supervisor.


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## randymac88 (Feb 29, 2004)

Well, I saw your post and I forced a call, and sure enough its loading something...and seems like theres a big fish on the line. It's been "loading" for about 20 minutes or so. Hoping this is a firmware upgrade as it's usually not this long. Will keep you posted.

UPDATE: No dice. Bummer.


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

I tried it as well and no joy yet...


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## dolfer (Nov 3, 2000)

It's here? It's coming? Finally some good news... I've been over in the ESPN2 HD thread going nuts that Time Warner Cincinnati is starting to go SDV... 

Hey Chimp and any others who might get it today. Please post results ASAP! I want to know if it works. I will be at work all day and won't have access to my box till ~8pm.


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

It may be coming, but it's not here. May not have been clear in my posting, but I tried a forced call and there was no update. I will try again later.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

dolfer said:


> It's here? It's coming? Finally some good news... I've been over in the ESPN2 HD thread going nuts that Time Warner Cincinnati is starting to go SDV...


Apparently a bunch of other TWC locations are also going SDV within the next few days. Whats worse, I cant imagine that most cable companies wont follow suit in the near future. It just makes too much sense for the cable companies to reclaim much needed bandwidth by using SDV for them not to do it. To hell with the owners of S3s and other CableCARD enabled devices that will be orphaned thereby.

Although Cox OKC hasnt started to implement SDV yet, if this plays out as I fear it will, they soon will. If so, my having spent nearly $900 on my S3 and Lifetime transfer fee only eight months ago will rank as the biggest waste of my money I can recall. Man, this STINKS!

I apoligize for hijacking the thread. Sorry about that.


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## tvn (Sep 29, 2002)

dolfer said:


> It's here? It's coming? Finally some good news... I've been over in the ESPN2 HD thread going nuts that Time Warner Cincinnati is starting to go SDV...
> 
> Hey Chimp and any others who might get it today. Please post results ASAP! I want to know if it works. I will be at work all day and won't have access to my box till ~8pm.


I tried also. No update? What's SDV. I have Cablevision and they are not quick to adapt.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

navman said:


> Talked to tivo customer service about pixellation issues on my tivo hd. was told they released a new software a few days ago that should fix the issue for people with SA cards. On asking them as to why I hadnt gotten this software update despite forcing several connections, i was told something to the effect of "it is a rolling release" being tested on limited tivohds and everyone should get it soon. Was I being lied to or is this the truth. The new software according to them was 8.3, which I thought was for TivoHD's older sibling. By the way I talked to Cal, he is a supervisor.


No, it's not ready yet, that customer support person gave you incorrect information. If you'll send me a pm with your contact information (and a case number if you have it), we'll look into it.

Thanks!
Pony


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## dolfer (Nov 3, 2000)

tvn said:


> I tried also. No update? What's SDV. I have Cablevision and they are not quick to adapt.


You better hope it stays that way! Or else you will suddenly be watching fewer and fewer channels! SDV is very very bad... at least for now it is...


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## dolfer (Nov 3, 2000)

TiVoPony said:


> No, it's not ready yet
> Thanks!
> Pony


You ruined my day!  I needed something to keep from busting an artery over Time Warner Cincinnati's SDV crap... Oh well... There's always alcohol.


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## Brighton Line (Mar 15, 2006)

tvn said:


> I tried also. No update? What's SDV. I have Cablevision and they are not quick to adapt.


I beleive Cablevision on Long Island and NYC does use SDV for their foreign language channels and major league "passes" the out of market broadcasts of games you pay for but even the "new" 20 HD VOOM channels that were just added are NOT SDV.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

Brighton Line said:


> I beleive Cablevision on Long Island and NYC does use SDV for their foreign language channels and major league "passes" the out of market broadcasts of games you pay for but even the "new" 20 HD VOOM channels that were just added are NOT SDV.


And with bitrates around 7-10 Mbps, some of them aren't really HD either...

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pU-T5iA3Gy7Yf5tNvhnHddQ


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## shaown (Jul 1, 2002)

TivoPony, great communications, that goes a long way to keeping your customers happy!
-Shaown


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> No, it's not ready yet, that customer support person gave you incorrect information. If you'll send me a pm with your contact information (and a case number if you have it), we'll look into it.
> 
> Thanks!
> Pony


Uh oh - another CSR is going to get "educated". 

Sometimes I think they just tell people what they want to hear ...

Glad to see Pony/Stephen/Jerry continuing the CSR "lessons" ... LOL!

Now, if we could only get Tom or the other powers that be at Tivo to allow Pony to make some statement of direction/intent on SDV support (maybe a clarification of the recent NTCA comments to the FCC about a tuning dongle - sure sounded like it was well under development).


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## dolfer (Nov 3, 2000)

i'm still hoping for a Labor Day Weekend miracle!


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

TivoPony, any news???


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## mchief (Sep 10, 2005)

The distortion (macroblocking, etc) has been so bad on a number of HD channels that I pulled the plug (hard reboot). After the restart, no problems - everything is clear and showing no signs of distortion or sound dropouts. That would seem to indicate a TivoHD problem. 

During the weekend of unwatchable channels, I put the TivoHD on split screen with the TV + SA S-card. While the Tivo was distorted, the TV was clear.

TivoHd has a SA M-Card. Of course the question now is how long will it last?

Comcast Alexandria VA


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## dolfer (Nov 3, 2000)

mchief said:


> The distortion (macroblocking, etc) has been so bad on a number of HD channels that I pulled the plug (hard reboot). After the restart, no problems - everything is clear and showing no signs of distortion or sound dropouts. That would seem to indicate a TivoHD problem.
> 
> During the weekend of unwatchable channels, I put the TivoHD on split screen with the TV + SA S-card. While the Tivo was distorted, the TV was clear.
> 
> ...


A variety of reboots (hard and soft) have done nothing for me... Interesting... I was under the impression that all of the major problems are with those using two Scientific Atlanta *S-Cards* , not a single M-Card like yourself...


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## dolfer (Nov 3, 2000)

bkdtv said:


> One week since this notice was posted. Let's hope for the release next week.


Now it's exactly two weeks! Beat you to it...


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## paslax (Apr 20, 2004)

I'm looking forward to the day when this software update is pushed out and everyone reports back that "it's fixed!" That is the day that I will pull the trigger and buy a TivoHD. I continue to anxiously awaiting that day.


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## spaceboytom (Jan 8, 2006)

dolfer said:


> A variety of reboots (hard and soft) have done nothing for me... Interesting... I was under the impression that all of the major problems are with those using two Scientific Atlanta *S-Cards* , not a single M-Card like yourself...


Moto M-card here too. I still see occasional macroblocking on my CBS-HD, but it is much better than before b2 update. Let's hope the next update clears everyone up!

SBT


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

Wouldn't it be grand if all the channels available were of HD quality ? Without pixelation of course


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Dr_Diablo said:


> Wouldn't it be grand if all the channels available were of HD quality ? Without pixelation of course


On one of my TiVo HDs, all I have are HD channels with the box hooked up to an antenna on the roof. I have zero issues and it works brilliantly.


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> If you would read all the words, I'm not saying all your problem is signal related, just that it's more likely than not that some of it is. And I don't claim to be a "genius"; just someone who went through a very similar situation as you have.
> 
> And all of that could be meaningless. If you have a clean signal close to 0 dBmv, then you should be seeing 100 on the Tivo signal strength meter (which is fairly useless anyway, when it comes to diagnosing signal related issues). The 8300 can run with a hot signal, w/o issue. The Tivo S3 (and I presume the THD) are far more sensitive to quality signals. If they didn't take measurements at the Tivo input for the various combinations, then they didn't do a complete job.
> 
> ...


Surely it is understood that any of the cable companies do not feel it is their problem if their service does not work using a Tivo product. They have made this perfectly clear, in my case anyway.
When tested, an the service works using THEIR product, they contend the problems are not theirs to repair...

In Chimpwares case his cable provider went way beyond their responsiblility, he is fortunate in that regard...

What is needed here is for Tivo to take a stand when dealing with cable companies, and not just blame them as the source...

It is odd that the Series 3 unit has been on the market for nearly a year now, with known problem, yet to be corrected to all those concerned... And yet here it is, a "fix" has been made available for the Tivo HD so soon after its release...

Comments ?


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