# DirecTV CSRs Throwing Tivo Under The Bus



## richa65 (Mar 18, 2003)

I have been a happy DirecTV subscriber for about 3-4 years - using a pair of flawlessly performing and hacked to 120G HDVR2's. In November, I finally went out and bought an HDTV and as a result, made the horrible mistake of "leasing" an HR20. Prior to November, I absolutely loved DirecTV and their wonderfully perfect Tivo units. Since November, I want them to simply collapse into the abyss.

Today, after waiting 3 days for a callback from a CSR manager in the HR20 support group, I finally lost my cool. For 7 weeks I have been nursing this HR20 along, using my Tivos as a backup for all the missed recordings by the HR20. I've been waiting for the "golden load" of software that the CSRs keep promising. I'm now convinced that it will never arrive.

But the kicker came this morning when a belligerent CSR "supervisor" began arguing with me about bugs in the HR20. Telling me that she and her mother have HR20's which perform flawlessly and what was my problem. And I was OK with that even. But then she said it - she said the one thing that would really pi** me off. "If you think the HR20 is bad, you should see the DirecTivos. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them is failing in the field. The Tivo software is completely unstable etc. etc.." I couldn't believe my ears. You a**holes are blaming Tivo for you filling up their error logs? 

At that point I went off on a laundry list of issues with the HR20. We had been on the phone for 15 or 20 minutes when I hear another CSR in the background say "Get off the phone. He's just playin' with you." I asked her if I had heard that right and then asked her to put me through to retention.

Yep, this company has gone from near the top of my list to the very bottom in virtually no time at all. So if I'm reading this right, DirecTV wants their new tagline to read: "If you think we're bad, you ought to see the competition." That's a great way to lose a lot of customers.

But who will step up to take their customers? The cable companies? Dish? It's a sad situation on there in TV land. I'm about ready to get a Series 3 and a Yagi and just forget about the whole lot of them.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Funny... Is that pretty much the "basis" of all advertisement out there.... 

I see paid advertisments from Comcast... nearly ever day...
"Who puts up a dish in the city of wind"... constantly bad mouthing the competition.

And vice-versa. You will find similar from CableCo CSRs, Dish CSRs, TiVo CSRs... you think they are singing the praises of the HR20 when you call them about a T3 issue?

-------------

Where as the CSR was not professional enough to engage with you in a proper manner (which I agree with)...as that is not acceptable..


As for the "Blaming TiVo for you filling up their error logs"......
Well..... there are enough threads discussing "who" was a fault for that...


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

If I can get comcast to run the 1000 feet of main line to my home I may join you. I would put my D* account on suspension and use it like a fail safe fall back. Lets face it cable is not the most reliable service in the world. Hurricains come and knock out the cable but My D* goes on. And of the only 2 sat providers (God only knows why there are only 2(Isnt there enough room in space for more sats?  ) D* is the lesser of 2 evils.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Well..... there are enough threads discussing "who" was a fault for that...


 Well Earl I found out who was at fault. It was gremlins


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

richa65 said:


> At that point I went off on a laundry list of issues with the HR20. We had been on the phone for 15 or 20 minutes when I hear another CSR in the background say "Get off the phone. He's just playin' with you." I asked her if I had heard that right and then asked her to put me through to retention.


Is that the end of the story? What did retention say? Did you close your account? Don't leave us hanging ...


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

richa65:
You need to tell that story here as well.
http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112


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## richa65 (Mar 18, 2003)

Retention. I'd like to say I told them where they could stick their 5 LNB dish, but alas, I had no intention of canceling. The guy in retention was great. Some older guy. We talked for about 5 minutes about PVRs then he gave me $100 credit for my troubles. I can't cancel until basketball season is over, I'm addicted to Full Court. If not for that, I'd be gone already. I pretty much watch a little network TV and basketball. The rest of the channels are just in my way.


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## richa65 (Mar 18, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> Funny... Is that pretty much the "basis" of all advertisement out there....


Well, in a way yes. But the standard is usually "We are better than they are" as opposed to "We suck less."



ebonovic said:


> And vice-versa. You will find similar from CableCo CSRs, Dish CSRs, TiVo CSRs... you think they are singing the praises of the HR20 when you call them about a T3 issue?


There aren't many people anywhere singing the praises of the HR20. To include anyone with a conscience at DirecTV. My issue is that they are making up excuses for why they switched over from Tivo to their roll-your-own solution.

To DirecTV I'd like to say this - "Don't urinate on my head and tell me it's raining." I've been living happily with your Tivo's for 4 years. Suddenly those break along with your HR20's, your R15's, and whatever other PVRs you've got out there and it's somehow Tivo's fault? Hmmm.


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## ironchef (Dec 27, 2002)

HOw did we go from having the best options in the world (HDVR2s, hackable and friendly) to a situation where I'm keeping DTV only as the lesser of two weasels?

I've put off upgrading to HD because the content options are so poor. I live in an area that would require a 100 foot mast to get a OTA signal, the cable company is Comcast (been there, done that, won't go back again) and the only DTV options are lame PVRs.


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## ironchef (Dec 27, 2002)

richa65 said:


> W My issue is that they are making up excuses for why they switched over from Tivo to their roll-your-own solution.


It wasn't even a roll your own, Murdoch owned a huge chunk of the tinplate toy factory where the lame units were already being made. HE did this to bail them out and line his pockets.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

richa65 said:


> There aren't many people anywhere singing the praises of the HR20. To include anyone with a conscience at DirecTV. My issue is that they are making up excuses for why they switched over from Tivo to their roll-your-own solution.


Hmm... I thought that is all we did at www.dbstalk.com (at least that is what we are accused of often..  )



richa65 said:


> To DirecTV I'd like to say this - "Don't urinate on my head and tell me it's raining." I've been living happily with your Tivo's for 4 years. Suddenly those break along with your HR20's, your R15's, and whatever other PVRs you've got out there and it's somehow Tivo's fault? Hmmm.


Umm... The changes didn't brake the R15/HR20 or the UltimateTV..
Nor did it cause problems to the non-dvr receivers out there either...


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## RossoNeri (Nov 26, 2005)

Regarding the rapid fall in sentiment, I couldn't agree more. I've had D* for about 5 years. For most of that, I swore they were the best option in TV programming out there. Even considering the handicapped TiVo functionality.

However, a spate of anti-consumer friendly decisions (dumping TiVo) and screwups (buggy HR20, TiVo error log foulup) has left a very bad taste with me.

They now have me champing at the bit for Verizon to turn up the FiOS installation they've been working on. I already know what I'm going to tell Cox (my HSI provider) and D* when I cancel my service.

For D*: not being able to get ALL my HD content on my TiVo is a huge blow but the handling of the error log SNAFU pushed it over the top.

I'm even more excited about Cox having a deal with TiVo and would consider them over D* if they weren't so bloody expensive.

Right about now the only thing that would get me to stay with D* is a new agreement to produce an S3 DTiVo by the end of 2007. Since that is not likely, it's sayonara to D* and hello FiOS.

Thanks for indulging the "me too"/$0.02 post/rant.


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## richa65 (Mar 18, 2003)

I don't know much about this error overrun problem or what units are effected. All I knew about it prior to today was that I had to reprogram my 30 second skip every night. I guess if the HR20 and the R15 can't blame the error log problem, then that just leaves bad programming?  Bottom line is that even when my Tivo is being bombarded with error messages, it outperforms the HR20 any day of the week.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Ummm, apparently D* has never heard of testing systems before a rolling out changes like this. It seems that if you were going to make even what is percieved to be a small change as this... that you should TEST it and make sure that it is not going to affect your user base in such a negative way.

I'm not sure that the blame can be placed on Tivo for not knowing what D* was doing.



> Umm... The changes didn't brake the R15/HR20 or the UltimateTV..
> Nor did it cause problems to the non-dvr receivers out there either...


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## mphare (Jul 16, 2004)

We seem to be living in a world where we want to assign blame to a single entity for anything that ever happens.

Eat too many Big Macs.. you get fat.. sue McDonald's.. it was their fault and their fault alone that you have no self control.

Now we see a problem where an altered datastream causes problems for a deprecated peice of hardware and we need to blame either TiVo or DTV. I would say there's enough culpability to go around; TiVo could have written more robust software and DTV could have tested the new DS better.

At the end of the day, it matters not.

It's not like this happens constantly between TiVo and DTV.. 
I know, we DTiVo users feel like we were dumped on when DTV dumped TiVo.. in a way we were. So, we feel justified in blaming DTV as being a rotten company that can't do anything right; of making bad business decisions.

As I said before, TiVo and DTV have identified this as a problem, provided a quick fix and are working out a longer term solution. I think this is great for both companies.

But I am aware that at some point in the future, a year, 2 years, 3 years from now, DTV will make another change in some way that causes the DTiVos problems and they will say 'sorry, want an R15?' (or R25 or whatever they have at that point). It didn't happen this time, we have been given a reprieve.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

richa65 said:


> Retention. I'd like to say I told them where they could stick their 5 LNB dish, but alas, I had no intention of canceling. The guy in retention was great. Some older guy. We talked for about 5 minutes about PVRs then he gave me $100 credit for my troubles. I can't cancel until basketball season is over, I'm addicted to Full Court. If not for that, I'd be gone already. I pretty much watch a little network TV and basketball. The rest of the channels are just in my way.


That's what it comes down to in the end. Most people (notice I didn't say all) will choose their content over their DVR. Even TiVo loyalists. That always puts the in house units at an extreme advantage in the marketplace.

People are complaining, but not leaving because the programming they want is there.

As mphare said, enough blame to go around in this one.


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## Joe C (Jul 8, 2002)

Billy66 said:


> That's what it comes down to in the end. Most people (notice I didn't say all) will choose their content over their DVR. Even TiVo loyalists. That always puts the in house units at an extreme advantage in the marketplace.
> 
> .


Agreed, IMO you give up alot to get HD lite from Directv. I think I'll stay with my DTivos on regular SD TV sets.


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> Funny... Is that pretty much the "basis" of all advertisement out there....
> 
> I see paid advertisments from Comcast... nearly ever day...
> "Who puts up a dish in the city of wind"... constantly bad mouthing the competition.
> ...


Hmm....I would disagree with you, and make a rational argument so you can see the error of your ways, but we both know that's not going to happen.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Are there enough (any) Ultimate boxes left for us to be sure they weren't affected?

DTV is the company that released the guide changes and for weeks denied there was any problems. The log files get U/L during the phone call. DTV *should * have been aware of the problem before all the threads started here.

There isn't any excuse for DTV not properly notifying the CSR of the problem when it was identified. Continuing to suggest clear and delete is unacceptable.

DTV employees used to post here. DTV should have posted an official announcement regarding the problem.



ebonovic said:


> Umm... The changes didn't brake the R15/HR20 or the UltimateTV..
> Nor did it cause problems to the non-dvr receivers out there either...


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Many of the cable systems, and even FiOS, has more HD offerings than DTV. The NFL Sunday Ticket is about the only significant programming that DTV has that isn't available on digital cable.

Hackable tivo is the only reason I'm still with DTV. I agree, the price of in house units, means many of us won't buy a SA Tivo BUT I don't see any advantage of a DTV DVR vs a cable DVR.

DTV vs cable
--DTV no longer has a price advantage, particularly with bundle pricing.
--DTV no longer has a better DVR.
--DTV no longer has better content offering (other than NFL).



Billy66 said:


> That's what it comes down to in the end. Most people (notice I didn't say all) will choose their content over their DVR. Even TiVo loyalists. That always puts the in house units at an extreme advantage in the marketplace.
> 
> People are complaining, but not leaving because the programming they want is there.
> 
> As mphare said, enough blame to go around in this one.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

lew said:


> Are there enough (any) Ultimate boxes left for us to be sure they weren't affected?
> 
> DTV is the company that released the guide changes and for weeks denied there was any problems. The log files get U/L during the phone call. DTV *should * have been aware of the problem before all the threads started here.
> 
> ...


Yes, there are still a good number of Ultimate users out there..

As for "official" announcement... Robert Mercer did discuss on the record with CNet last friday. I would never expect them to go public with the EXACT details of the issues though...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

seattlewendell said:


> Hmm....I would disagree with you, and make a rational argument so you can see the error of your ways, but we both know that's not going to happen.


Please do... please make a rational argument, that I was incorrect in my post.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

magnus said:


> Ummm, apparently D* has never heard of testing systems before a rolling out changes like this. It seems that if you were going to make even what is percieved to be a small change as this... that you should TEST it and make sure that it is not going to affect your user base in such a negative way.
> 
> I'm not sure that the blame can be placed on Tivo for not knowing what D* was doing.


Who says they didn't test it?
Just like here... not everyone was effected.... 
So... who is to say in their testing it didn't effect the systems they where on?

What if the testing system they have setup for these types of things... did pass?

All that says... is that they need to change the testing systems.

Do you really honestly think, they would make a change the guide data stream which goes out to nearly 40 Million receivers... without at least testing it?


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Well they did make a change to the data stream that goes out to nearly 40 Million receivers without *adequate testing.* DTV was much to slow to acknowledge a problem. Some posters are still being given bad information from CSR on the phone. Remember our logs get U/L.



ebonovic said:


> Do you really honestly think, they would make a change the guide data stream which goes out to nearly 40 Million receivers... without at least testing it?


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Umm... The changes didn't brake the R15/HR20 or the UltimateTV..
> Nor did it cause problems to the non-dvr receivers out there either...


I realize that you've become a big fan of the HR20, and I'm also not enough of a blind "TiVo-can-do-no-wrong" fanboy to defend them no matter what. However...

In this case, this seems like yet another result of DirecTV's attempt to dump TiVo and their almost total lack of communication with them.

You really can't blame the TiVo software people for DirecTV making a change in the guide data and failing to give TiVo a heads up. Surely you're not saying that the TiVo people are supposed to "read the minds" of the DirecTV engineers!

Also, the remark that TiVo is at fault because the change did not affect non-DVR receivers is off the mark.

Non-DVR receivers don't do anything with the guide data other than associate times/programs/channels in order to populate the on-screen grid.

TiVo units, on the other hand, use the guide data to populate an extensive and sophisticated cross-corelated database designed to be easily browesable by genre, actors, directors, etc. etc. What the TiVo unit "does" with the data is orders of magnitude more complicated that what a non-DVR unit does with it.

Furthermore, the non-TiVo DVR's have less sophisticated searching capabilities, implying a simpler database structure.

DirecTV gave the developers of their "in-house" DVRs an adequate heads-up that the data format change was coming, and failed to give a similar heads-up to TiVo. Who's fault was that?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

lew said:


> Well they did make a change to the data stream that goes out to nearly 40 Million receivers without *adequate testing.* DTV was much to slow to acknowledge a problem. Some posters are still being given bad information from CSR on the phone. Remember our logs get U/L.


Your "logs" get U/L to TiVo, Inc... not DirecTV.

As for the CSRs... that is an entirely different issue, on why they say what they say.

And as for taking to long....
4 weeks... with two major holidays, and the largest electronic show in there...
And... ultimately having to wait for a third party vendor, to ask them WHY their systems are failing... as that third party vendor, doesn't supply them with source code, or *adequate* debugging facilities for it....


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Fish Man said:


> I realize that you've become a big fan of the HR20, and I'm also not enough of a blind "TiVo-can-do-no-wrong" fanboy to defend them no matter what. However...
> 
> In this case, this seems like yet another result of DirecTV's attempt to dump TiVo and their almost total lack of communication with them.
> 
> ...


This has 100% *NOTHING* to do with my like/dislike of the products... I could give to flying rats patoots. Why does pointing out the possibility, that the beloved TiVo... may have an issue... and could possible be flawed... always have to do with someone liking the R15/HR20.

Why is another "attempt" to dump TiVo...

The results of the analysis, has now forced DirecTV to STOP their plans to do what ever they wanted to do with the enhanced data stream... and wait an undetermined period of time, for TiVo to provide them with not 1... but 5 software builds for the 5 different core versions of DTiVos out there.... test them, and then proceed with a rollout of those software versions.

If DirecTV really wanted to get rid of the DTivos... they could use this experience to say... BAM... we are turning them off February 1st... as we can't wait that long.

The newer Non-DVR's do a lot more with the guide data that... they do provide serach features on the guide data...granted only for 3 days, but none the less...

Your right... the TiVo does do an extensive more with the data... but something in that complexity was not built properly to completly handle an issue with the guide data...

Regardless if the changes where within spec or out of spec of the guide data specifications... the TiVo should have had the ability to NOT restart, and report to you the user that something was wrong... and to call support.

I am not saying that the TiVo engineers should read the minds... but.. if the guide data WAS to specifications... then someone did something wrong... at a minimum, the DTivo should not reboot... and should display something to the user about the problem that is occuring... even if it is just a call support with this number.

Are you part of the R15/HR20 development teams? Do you know for a fact that they where given a "heads" up on the guide data change... Do you know for certain that TiVo, wasn't given a "heads" up on the guide data change?

I guess this is just another case of where the Holy Grail of DVRs.. is starting to show that it is not made out of gold, but might just be gold plated.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

As a customer, I don't care about the division of responsibility between DTV and Tvio. We pay DTV. Support is handled by DTV. The guide data is supplied by DTV. Logs may have been U/L to tivo but we all agree the logs document the problem and I assume they're available to DTV.

CSR--That is the issue, as far as I'm concerned. I agree with your point. Testing isn't goint to catch everything. Once the problem was identified there isn't any excuse for CSRs continuing to give bad information including the clear and delete suggestion.

I don't think it should have taken weeks to go back to the old guide data. DTV should have have been ready to go back in case there was a problem. 4 weeks may not have been enough time to solve the problem but it shouldn't have taken that long to temporarily solve the problem by going back to the guide data that works. The available logs should have been more than enough information for DTV to act sooner.

*We'll have to agree to disagree* CSR suggesting a clear and delete instead of honestly acknowledging a problem is just wrong.

You may have some good sources, but none of us really know if the new guide data was to "specs". The last round of tivo software, 3.5 for the series 1, is faster. It's possible tivo matched the specs they were told were being used. There may be an official spec book and an understanding between tivo and DTV that supersedes the official specs.

The conspiracy people are off the mark. I doubt DTV even has enough DVRs to swap out all the tivo units.



ebonovic said:


> Your "logs" get U/L to TiVo, Inc... not DirecTV.
> 
> As for the CSRs... that is an entirely different issue, on why they say what they say.
> 
> ...


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> I guess this is just another case of where the Holy Grail of DVRs.. is starting to show that it is not made out of gold, but might just be gold plated.


 :down:

That's crap Earl and I think you know it. Come on man, gold plate will turn in color or flake far earlier than 6-7+ years. I had two SAT-T60 units for that time period and I had NO problems. I'm not hyping. I've had NO problems. That's not a gold plated product.

Now, for whatever reason (an altered data stream from DTV, I hear) causes these units to lose recordings and season passes, and reboot multiple times. And you and a few others start questioning the robustness of the TiVo software on units. Somehow because the logs couldn't handle dealing with the errors in the stream?

Again, come on man. Be real.

My units ran flawlessly for around 7 years, and all of a sudden they hiccup from something out of spec. being sent to them. And you say TiVo is gold plated and not robust? So it's the diesel car's fault when an idiot fills it with regular gasoline?

What would you call the R15 and HR20, which I assume are getting the best, most in spec. streams DTV can send them, and they continue to perform like this:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=74448

When you make comments like that, consider this:

Yeah, we know you like DTV and their stuff. That's fine. A lot of us like TiVo. But remember, most of us do not get anything for free from TiVo, at least I don't. Do you see where I am heading?

The fact that I am willing to take time to write this (supportive of TiVo), and get nothing from TiVo but their product and service that I pay for, and you write in support of DTV, and get new equipment, maybe other stuff.....

Do you really want to talk about gold and gold plated?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

What the crap is... is when ever I point out, that TiVo may have an issue...

I get sh*ted on... that is where I am going with that...
God for bid... that actually maybe... the TiVo has an issue... but yet... it can't be it's fault...

That is where I am going with it.

It is not that TiVo is a bad product... is just that people have put it on a pedistal for the most part... and get offended when there is anything out there that tries to knock it down... or point out the flaws in that system.

Yes or no: Did the DTiVo series freak out because of the change?
Yes or no: Did the other receivers in the DirecTV system freak out because of the change?
Yes or no: Did the DTiVo reboot because of it's freaking out?
Yes or no: Did the DTiVo provide the user a message that it was having an internal issue? To Call for help...
Yes or No: Did the resulting analysis determin that the TiVo software needs to be changed?
Yes or No: Did the resulting analysis determin that the guide data stream have to be changed?
Yes or No: Is it possible... that TiVo could do something wrong... and people acknowledge it...


That is what I am getting frustrated up to here with.......
I am tired of it... You can love your TiVo... you can sleep with the TiVo man... I simply don't care... and that is not what this is about.

This is about there was an issue with the DTiVo platform... it now has been identified... and it has to get changed. Period.... that is the facts of the situation.


And last time I checked... I was #5 on that pre-order list for the HR10-250... dropped $899 on it (as I ordered the moment I heard about it, and got in before the price adjustment). I ordered an R10 the day it was announced.... So while I do have the opportunity today, to have access to some of the newest equipment.

Don't think for a fracking minute, that I think TiVo is a piece of dog dung... TiVo, Inc... blazed the way, for what we see today with DVRs... and they did a lot of things right... but that doesn't automaticaly give them a pass when things are done wrong.

Again... why is this turning into an R15/HR20 vs TiVo debate.
Other then bringing up the "rational" fact that other systems in the fleet (not singling out the DVR+ series)... didn't have the issue... that is the only remote introduction of the R15/HR20 to this discussion.

I wish I can say my DTivo's all 12 of them that I have owned, and the other 12 or so that I am responsible for in the last 7 years, have raw flawlessly... but I can't... as that is not true. So maybe my perspective has changed in the last 7 years....


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

YES OR NO

Customers did call, without a message on their screen. DTV CSRs continued to suggest those customers do a clear and delete *long after it was know that wouldn't solve the problem.*

YES OR NO

The issue was discussed on internet boards, complete with posts from log files, weeks before DTV acknowledged their was a problem.

YES OR NO

We pay DTV for DVR service. DTV supplies the guide data. DTV is responsible for support.

YES OR NO
Whatever testing that was done with the new guide data wasn't enough to discover a widespread problem.

YES OR NO
DTV accepted the current tivo software as meeting tivo's contracutal obligations with DTV.

*This is an issue of horrible customer support by DTV.* I won't let you reshape the issue to match your agenda.

*WE PAY DTV. DTV IS RESPONSIBLE. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF A MISTAKE WAS MADE BY A DTV EMPLOYEE OR BY TIVO. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.* 


ebonovic said:


> Yes or no: Did the DTiVo series freak out because of the change?
> Yes or no: Did the other receivers in the DirecTV system freak out because of the change?
> Yes or no: Did the DTiVo reboot because of it's freaking out?
> Yes or no: Did the DTiVo provide the user a message that it was having an internal issue? To Call for help...
> ...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

lew said:


> YES OR NO
> 
> Customers did call, without a message on their screen. DTV CSRs continued to suggest those customers do a clear and delete *long after it was know that wouldn't solve the problem.*
> 
> ...


Why are you yelling?

And when has customer support been anything different?
This isn't new...
This isn't anything different...
Not going to change tomorrow...
Probably not even by next week...

You called... someone else may have called...
But with nearly 3 million DTivos out there... what do you think the ratio is... that those calls have to hit, before they they think there is a global issue...

And for the record... the MOMENT they started to hit the forum boards... people at where DirecTV where informed (you can ask any of the other people, here... that are in the TechKnow forums at forums.directv.com).

DirecTV did their analysis... and then had to rely on their third party vendor.
But again... It is a DirecTV box... and they have to take the heat for the issue... not TiVo.... and people wonder why they wanted to take responsibility for their own DVRs...

If they are going to have to take the heat... they want the ability to fix it themselves.

And as for "reshapping" it to fit.. .MY agenda.
Well... I can assure you that I won't let people dictate my non-existing agenda, to fit their arguments.

If you think I have an agenda... then seriouslly...
There is an IGNORE feature of the forum board... enable it...
As I have told others:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/profile.php?do=editlist

Right column: user Name: ebonovic


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Joe C said:


> Agreed, IMO you give up alot to get HD lite from Directv. I think I'll stay with my DTivos on regular SD TV sets.


Even if I were to agree that it is HDLite (a term I think you heard, not something you've experienced or even seen), that still is like a million times better than SD.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Putting a user on my ignore list deprives me of the opporunity to comment and to correct misinformation that's posted.

It as apparent to many of us that "your agenda" is to blame the tivo software for the current problem. I don't accept your implication that tivo deserves the blame since DTV approved the software, takes our $$ and is responsible for support.

I'll speculate DTV is having an issue trying to support tivo while at the same time rolling out their own boxes. I'll speculate that DTV would be in better shape if they either go back to tivo or bite the bullet and do a swap out. It would cost $$ in equipment and possibly some type of cancellation penalty to tivo but just telling us the problem is with tivo *doesn't help the customer.*



ebonovic said:


> If you think I have an agenda... then seriouslly...
> There is an IGNORE feature of the forum board... enable it...
> As I have told others:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/profile.php?do=editlist
> ...


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## richa65 (Mar 18, 2003)

Tivo is gold plated? Those are STRONG words coming from someone who is clearly a huge proponent of DirecTV. I mean, you have absolutely got to be one hell of a drum beater to utter those words at this particular point in time.

Tivo is dependent on DirecTV for the guide data. DirecTV changes the guide data. Tivo breaks. Whose fault is it? To the end consumer IT'S DIRECTV's FAULT plain and simple. They entered into a partnership with Tivo. They touted the Tivo box. They sold me the Tivo box. The Tivo box ran flawlessly for years. THEY changed the guide data and broke the Tivo box.

They can internally point fingers back and forth all they want. You're out of spec. Your software's not robust enough. I don't freaking care about all that. We will never have enough facts to debate those points here.

Bottom line. It is DirecTV's job to maintain a test lab with SUFFICIENT numbers of each unit they have in the field to catch a problem that was as widespread as this one was. Last time I checked, my 70 bucks a month is going to DirecTV. It's DirecTV's name and reputation on the line and they choose to point fingers at their vendors. That's a weak position to take. Strong companies take responsibility for problems with their vendors EVEN IF it is clearly the vendor's fault.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> In this case, this seems like yet another result of DirecTV's attempt to dump TiVo and their almost total lack of communication with them.
> 
> {snip}
> 
> DirecTV gave the developers of their "in-house" DVRs an adequate heads-up that the data format change was coming, and failed to give a similar heads-up to TiVo. Who's fault was that?


Your post is good, but has 2 really BIG assumptions that I don't believe you can provide any basis in fact for.

If both of our assumptions are correct, do you also think that they gave the UTV folks adequate heads up, or did UltimateTV not need it because it is simply more robust?


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

richa65 said:


> Tivo is dependent on DirecTV for the guide data. DirecTV changes the guide data. Tivo breaks. Whose fault is it? To the end consumer IT'S DIRECTV's FAULT plain and simple. They entered into a partnership with Tivo. They touted the Tivo box. They sold me the Tivo box. The Tivo box ran flawlessly for years. THEY changed the guide data and broke the Tivo box.
> 
> They can internally point fingers back and forth all they want. You're out of spec. Your software's not robust enough. I don't freaking care about all that. We will never have enough facts to debate those points here.


It's definitely DTV's fault for choosing a partner that programs poorly and is slow to respond. TiVo is the only software that was fragile enough to show any problems. UltimateTv hasn't been touched in years and it pushed right through where the Tivo powered units could not.

Seriously, DTV is responsible to you, but TiVo is responsible to DTV and they clearly have egg on their face for failing where every other DVR and receiver did not fail.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

I guess... I just simply look at these problems a different way...

I am a software developer, that has spent 10 years in that development, with databases.

I have had to deal with data streams from multiple vendors.

If I did my job correctly, and conformed to that vendors, specs for the data stream...
Then... I should not have an issue... even if they change the stream, within those specifications.

But if I do... the reason, is the the data change... the end fault of the issue, is my software wasn't correct. 

And last time I checked... isn't DirecTV the one issuing the credits for the problem?
I mean... TiVo may or may not have to take a hit on their payment from DirecTV... but even then, it is only $1 of the $5.99 that is being credit.

Umm... where is DirecTV themselves pointing the finger at the Vendor?
They have come out and said, they made a change... that caused a problem in the TiVo.
That an update for the TiVo platform will have to be done, to conform to that change.

That is the ONLY statement DirecTV has officially made on the topic.

Everything else... is forum land fodder...

DirecTV is NOT... going back to the DTiVo platform... they simply are not... not now... not anytime soon. 

Gold Plated... yes... that is the term that I used.
As for the last 18 months... that is what my "opinion" has turned to... has nothing to do about the TiVo, Inc. product... but has to do with the pedestal it has been placed on.

Everyone wants to compare everything to TiVo... TiVo did it this way...so that is the way it HAS to be done... That is where the Gold Plated comment has come from...

So tell me... what is a "sufficient" number of each unit in their test lab..

10? 100? 1000? 10000? 1 million? What is a sufficient number..
All that you can ask now... 
1) They fix the problem, whom ever THEY may be
2) The "testing" model is updated, so that future tests will find the issues sooner then later.


And you are right... to the consumer... it will always be DirecTV's fault... as they are the service provider... regardless of the root cause of the issue... it is DirecTV they are going to call. 

But here in forum land... where we are not in customer service utopia... where people come to get the real answer to the issue...... that is where we differ.

As for the ignoring... not to worry... is it getting very clear... that my time here is comming to end......


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Regardless if the changes where within spec or out of spec of the guide data specifications... the TiVo should have had the ability to NOT restart, and report to you the user that something was wrong... and to call support.


Let's suppose for a minute that the new guide data "violated the specification" of what the guide data was supposed to look like, at least as the software engineers at TiVo understood it. (That last disclaimer, "as the software engineers at TiVo understood it", makes the assumption almost certainly true. Albeit, it could be argued that the TiVo people *misunderstood* the specifications, or made incorrect assumptions about them.)

What might the operational consequences of "out-of-spec-from-TiVo's-point-of-view" guide data be?:


Inability of the TiVo software to correctly find and identify season pass or wishlist programs? *Understandable.*
Inability to find programs through relevant searches? *Understandable.*
Inability to properly prioritize? *Understandable.*
Giving cryptic non-sensical reasons for dumping season pass items, e. g. "someone in your household modified the season pass". *Understandable.*
Rebooting? *I'm with you on this one: BAD!* The software should handle exceptions like this more gracefully.

All I was trying to say is, no matter how it happened, no matter the nuances of the history, this problem boils down to a *misscommunication between DirecTV and TiVo* regarding the format of the guide data.

Regardless of whom most of the blame may lie with, I can't conceive of an argument that makes sense that this was not, ultimately *a communication breakdown.*

It seems to me that when DirecTV's DVR platform of choice was TiVo, the communication was much better. Now that it's the "oh yeah, that _other_ platform", the communication ain't so great.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> It's definitely DTV's fault for choosing a partner that programs poorly and is slow to respond.


Tell me *Billy66*, 3 years ago who would you have chosen to partner with to build an integrated DVR? Radio Shack?? Burger King??? Tivo was then, and still is (IMHO), the best choice.

DirecTV partnered with themselves (essentially) in creating the R15 and HR20 - go over to http://www.dbstalk.com and see what the owners think about those units. If DirecTV had it to do over again, would they still choose to "build it in house"?

I'd be willing to say the per-box-in-the-customer-home support costs for DirecTV R15/HR20s are higher and the customer satisfaction level lower than what was experienced for the DTivos at the same number of months after their initial release. Of course, we will never know those figures. A good DVR will cause a customer to 'stick' and I'm one of them with 4 SD DTivos.

Until this missed recording/reboot issue, there were almost no bad vibes in this forum about DTivos, and today it has subsided back to about the same level, except for some hard-core Tivo haters.


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## richa65 (Mar 18, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> I guess... I just simply look at these problems a different way...
> Umm... where is DirecTV themselves pointing the finger at the Vendor?
> They have come out and said, they made a change... that caused a problem in the TiVo.
> That an update for the TiVo platform will have to be done, to conform to that change.
> ...


My experience is that their CSR's are pointing the finger at Tivo. I've had 2 different reps give me the same story. And this is without me bringing up Tivo by the way, but basically what they both said was, if you think the HR20 is bad, let me tell you what is going on with Tivo right now. To me, that's pointing the finger at Tivo. And if DirecTV is not taking responsibility for what their CSR's are saying, that just points back to the problem that they really don't seem like they want to take responsibility for anything.



ebonovic said:


> 10? 100? 1000? 10000? 1 million? What is a sufficient number..
> All that you can ask now...
> 1) They fix the problem, whom ever THEY may be
> 2) The "testing" model is updated, so that future tests will find the issues sooner then later.


Obviously, I don't know what the right number is - the problem is that the people at DirecTV who *should* know apparently don't know either. But I do know that when I on a high volume cable telephony product for several years, that it was the people who ran our test lab who were responsible for determining how many of each legacy box to run regression tests on before we rolled out a new software load. And if we had ever had a debacle like that in the field, heads would have rolled within the test group - regardless of which vendor may or may not have been "responsible". Furthermore, we would have held ourselves out to our customers as the sole party responsible. That's the right way to do business. DirecTV has forgetten that.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

The TiVo software was noticing there was a problem with the data stream (or what it thought the data stream should look like) and logging it. The TiVo software was robust enough to notice the problem in the data stream. These logs were filling up the disk drive. I think the main problem was either TiVo was not analyzing the log data that was being uploaded with the phone calls or there was a lack of communication between TiVo and DirecTV when TiVo noticed the problem. There is blame on both sides here. DirecTV for not properly testing the data stream changes and notifing TiVo of the changes in the data stream and TiVo for not looking at the logs or not communicating the problem back to DirecTV.

The problem is fixed for now and I'm sure in the future there will be more testing when changes like this occur. Hopefully things like this can be avoided in the future.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I posted when I disagreed with you, I'll post when I agree with much of your post.

I agree, even with the new owner, DTV is unlikely to go back to tivo. I switched from cable to DTV several years ago. Since then cable has gone to digital. FiOS will soon be available. I'll be able to get a dual tuner DVR. Pricing, picture quality and availability of HD channels is better than DTV. The DTvio is one of the few things where DTV had an advantage.

I don't know the source of your information but we don't know if tivo misread the spec, if DTV misread the spec or if tivo was told they can bypass part of the spec to make the units run faster. The last software upgrade allowed the old hardware to run faster. Prehaps you have definitive information but I'd expect any of your DTV sources would want to blame tivo.

You have made an issue of blamming tivo for the problem. *Several posters * were told by a DTV CSR that tivo was the problem. DTV decided not to bother issuing an official statement as the problem was being discovered. I accept your explanation that testing isn't perfect. Unlike software upgrades it may not be possible to roll out guide data changes to just a few units for final testing.

My complaint is with DTV not monitoring the situation so they could be quicker to respond to customer phone calls and be quicker to roll back the guide data. You mentioned the issue of December holidays and CES *which means DTV was incredibly stupid rolling out the changes when they did.*

I'm not even sure why we have to ask for credits, we should all be getting at least one month DVR charge credit without having to ask.



ebonovic said:


> I guess... I just simply look at these problems a different way...
> 
> I am a software developer, that has spent 10 years in that development, with databases.
> 
> ...


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

Sorry Lew, but I think Earlvis has left the building.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=337120


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

goony said:


> Tell me *Billy66*, 3 years ago who would you have chosen to partner with to build an integrated DVR? Radio Shack?? Burger King??? Tivo was then, and still is (IMHO), the best choice.
> 
> DirecTV partnered with themselves (essentially) in creating the R15 and HR20 - go over to http://www.dbstalk.com and see what the owners think about those units. If DirecTV had it to do over again, would they still choose to "build it in house"?
> 
> ...


What did I do to earn my name in bold? Thanks Goony!

I'm just playing some devils advocate man, can't you see that? In the end, people will need to assign some responsibility to Tivo. When they get to that point latley, their argument turns to "Well I pay DTV, i don't care about their providers..." which implies that they feel DTV seleceted a bad third party provider.

It's nice of you to lecture me on the history of the Dtivo, but I was here for all of it. Before you both with the product and on this forum. Step one, the first day. I've been there. It doesn't mean I hate Tivo simply because I hold them responsible for their business. I love Tivo and have supported them more and longer than you. Don't forget that.

Your assumptions about support costs are just made up. You don't have any clue and neither do I to dispute it.

Just relax, Tivo isn't perfect and this is a simple example. I accept that it took about 6 years into the product's life cycle for it to appear. Gosh you guys are sensitive.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

20TIL6 said:


> Sorry Lew, but I think Earlvis has left the building.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=337120


I'm sure whatever source he has at DTV is blamming tivo. I'm sure he thinks it's tivo's fault. I can even accept the possibility that testing couldn't have caught it. Numerous posters said DTV CSR are blamming tivo.

I can't understand how anyone can accept DTV continuing to give bad information and telling customers to do a clear and delete. The "cover up" is worse than the problem.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

rminsk said:


> and notifing TiVo of the changes in the data stream and TiVo for not looking at the logs or not communicating the problem back to DirecTV.


Just to be clear, it is not known what was communicated to TiVo. it's quite possible that this was communicated to TiVo. We simply don't know that.

The rest of what you said seems about right on to me.


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## dtee (Sep 29, 2006)

I had the Dish for about 5 Years then switched to Direct because of the DirecTiVo. It performed flawlessly for the past 5 years. I did not like Rupert Murdoch's switch to his company's (Sky B) version , so I was luckily able to move to FiOS. I got a Series 3 and it has performed flawlessly for the several weeks I have had it. There was only one issue with FiOs signal strength on several channels, but that has in the scheme of things been a minor issue. FiOs signal quality in SD is superior and the HD is simply superb. If you live in a Verizon area I would go for it, especially since Direct has announced a new tier pricing scheme today.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

What problems have been occuring with the DTiVos? Both of mine have been performing flawlessly. I only use them for backup now but all my Season passes are recorded like they are supposed to be.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

It doesn't matter who is technically at fault. We pay DirecTV anywhere from $500 to $1200 a year for service, and that puts them at 100% of the blame.

-smak-


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> It's definitely DTV's fault for choosing a partner that programs poorly and is slow to respond. TiVo is the only software that was fragile enough to show any problems. UltimateTv hasn't been touched in years and it pushed right through where the Tivo powered units could not.


Did you miss Earl's question earlier about why we have to make this DirecTV versus TiVo? Why are you continuing to foster this division?



> Seriously, DTV is responsible to you, but TiVo is responsible to DTV and they clearly have egg on their face for failing where every other DVR and receiver did not fail.


By what authority can you say this? Do you sit on DirecTV's engineering, planning, or testing boards? Are you privy to any communications between TiVo and DirecTV regarding the changes to the guide stream? I'm sorry, but you're just posting your opinion about what happened and passing it off as fact.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> Just to be clear, it is not known what was communicated to TiVo. it's quite possible that this was communicated to TiVo. We simply don't know that.


Well, I'm glad you finally admitted it. It would have been nice if you included these statements with your earlier posts ...


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

rminsk said:


> The TiVo software was noticing there was a problem with the data stream (or what it thought the data stream should look like) and logging it. The TiVo software was robust enough to notice the problem in the data stream. These logs were filling up the disk drive. I think the main problem was either TiVo was not analyzing the log data that was being uploaded with the phone calls ....


Do we know for certain that any of the logs sent with the phone calls would have included data indicating there was a problem? I know people have posted logs showing error messages, but are those same logs uploaded to TiVo during phone calls?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> It is not that TiVo is a bad product... is just that people have put it on a pedistal for the most part... and get offended when there is anything out there that tries to knock it down... or point out the flaws in that system.
> 
> Yes or no: Did the DTiVo series freak out because of the change?
> Yes or no: Did the other receivers in the DirecTV system freak out because of the change?
> ...


I know it's too late and that Earl has left the building, but I have to say I found some of these questions to be specious ...

Why cloud the issue? Why not just talk about TiVo and DirecTV, ignoring the affects of the data change on the other systems, focusing only on what changed with TiVo and DirecTV? Does DirecTV post error messages on the HR20 that direct users to call DirecTV whenever those units reboot, or don't record programs? Is it possible that DirecTV could do something wrong and people acknowledge it?

As Earl posted earlier, why continue making this a divisive issue? I want TiVo and DirecTV to work together. I want to continue using my TiVo as long as I can. I want to get software updates. I don't care who's at fault, I just care that finally someone is doing something about it. Get me a fix and move on.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

mphare said:


> At the end of the day, it matters not.


Yoda has spoken.


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## l2bengtrek (May 31, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> I guess... I just simply look at these problems a different way...
> 
> I am a software developer, that has spent 10 years in that development, with databases.
> 
> ...


Hey Earl....

Remember "the circle"??


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

smak said:


> It doesn't matter who is technically at fault. We pay DirecTV anywhere from $500 to $1200 a year for service, and that puts them at 100% of the blame.
> 
> -smak-


Some of your money went to Tivo through DirecTV. So if you're the kind of person who blames depending on where your money goes, Tivo does share some of the blame. Also, that DirecTivo box didn't fall out of the sky. You bought it from someone or some store. Why aren't they to blame as well? Certainly they got some of your money when you bought the box.

Tivo and DTV were partners at best, and contractor/sub-contractor at worst. Either way, I think they share an equal amount of blame here.

When Challenger blew up, the subcontractor that designed the solid rocket booster took some blame. Of course, I don't even remember their name. Everyone knows the main contractor, NASA. They obviously took some blame as well. The accident report eventually found no fault with anyone. Though there were recommendations made. Of course, they weren't followed which resulted in Columbia. Which resulted in more (of the same) recommendations. And they're still not followed today, as we still have night launches.

Also, there was that Mars probe where one sub-contractor thought distance was in feet, and the other thought it was in meters. The probe worked perfectly until it tried to land. Talk about a bug that wasn't exposed right away.

Hopefully, DTV can do better that NASA. This isn't rocket science. But I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Even Tivo is releasing buggy code lately. Those HR-10s with 6.3 software have audio dropouts and reboots. Just look in the other forum.


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## Celusil (Aug 13, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> DirecTV is NOT... going back to the DTiVo platform... they simply are not... not now... not anytime soon. .


I think that's a mistake

When the time finally comes that dtv stops it's support completely and my 2 Sony T60s stop working, DTV will lose this 3 year customer

and probably thousands of others.

I just hope I get enough warning so my hundred or so season passes aren't orphaned.

One of these days I will want to convert to HD, not today not in the near future the initial outlay for TV new DVRs and service is too much right now - but I'll probably want to in the future.

When I do the Series 3 TIVO seems to me to be the best solution, and it doesn't work with DTV - at all.

Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo Tivo

obviously you are on the tivo forum

C


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

drew2k said:


> Did you miss Earl's question earlier about why we have to make this DirecTV versus TiVo? Why are you continuing to foster this division?


I think I was responding to another post. I'll stop if there's nothing to respond to. 



> By what authority can you say this? Do you sit on DirecTV's engineering, planning, or testing boards? Are you privy to any communications between TiVo and DirecTV regarding the changes to the guide stream? I'm sorry, but you're just posting your opinion about what happened and passing it off as fact.


Actually I was passing it off as opinion. I don't think you can seriously take "they have egg on their face" as anything but opinion. So what is your opinion egg or no egg about the handling of the log file if nothing else?



> Well, I'm glad you finally admitted it. It would have been nice if you included these statements with your earlier posts ...


You guys gotta relax.

The position that it had to be all DTV's fault is already well covered. Mine was that nobody could say that the DTV change wasn't within spec. If you wonder, ask the questions, we can't all include disclaimers in all of our posts right?

I'm only arguing with those that seem to think TiVo couldn't have possibly been at fault, that it *had* to be DTV doing something out of spec without telling them. My personal position is in the middle. I've developed enough new products with other parties to know you win and lose together.


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## Joe C (Jul 8, 2002)

Billy66 said:


> Even if I were to agree that it is HDLite (a term I think you heard, not something you've experienced or even seen), that still is like a million times better than SD.


You are partially correct, I have read about the HD lite nickname on internet boards and in A/V magazine. But I have seen Directv's HD on my neighbors LG plasma set several times. WHile football looks noticeably better there is little difference to me on other channels. To me the DTivo is worth more then a handfull of HD channels, Lite or not.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> Even if I were to agree that it is HDLite (a term I think you heard, not something you've experienced or even seen)


Even _if_ you were to agree? You're saying there's some _doubt_ as to whether DirecTV substantialy degrades HiDef source programming?

Please. Argue anything you want, in terms of opinion, but we have eyes.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

I would say some doubt, not some_doubt, but you got the gist. 

I have eyes too, and I'm prone to believe the OTA should be better, but we simply can't tell switching between the Mpeg4 local and the OTA local.

Granted, we're not audio/videofiles, but the eyes are what I used. The only thing I used.


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## richa65 (Mar 18, 2003)

Unless I put them up side by side, I can't really tell the difference in OTA and DirecTV. I don't have any complaints about the quality of the video, just the quality of the box delivering the video and the quality of the reps supporting the lousy box which is delivering the nice video.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

I had never seen our HD locals in Nashville via DirecTV until last weekend when I went to a friend's house for the football games. I was astounded how bad the picture was. OTA is much, much better.


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## Joe C (Jul 8, 2002)

Info on HD lite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Lite


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

It should also be noted that it is only "HDLITE" (1980x1080 cropped to 1280x1080) on the MPEG2 HD channels. DTV does not crop in this way on the MPEG4 channels. The new HD channels slated to go up will be MPEG4.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

BobCamp1 said:


> Some of your money went to Tivo through DirecTV. So if you're the kind of person who blames depending on where your money goes, Tivo does share some of the blame. Also, that DirecTivo box didn't fall out of the sky. You bought it from someone or some store. Why aren't they to blame as well? Certainly they got some of your money when you bought the box.


When I buy a Honda, some of the money I pay Honda goes to 50 different companies who make engines, tires, brakes, windows, spark plugs etc...

Who do I complain to when one of those things goes wrong? You want me to call the company who makes the rearview mirror and complain that it broke?

If my Verizon phone's software says error and doesn't work, who am i complaing to? Microsoft? Palm? Symbian?

-smak-


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

Billy66 said:


> Your post is good, but has 2 really BIG assumptions that I don't believe you can provide any basis in fact for.
> 
> If both of our assumptions are correct, do you also think that they gave the UTV folks adequate heads up, or did UltimateTV not need it because it is simply more robust?


It has nothing to do with robustness or lack there of. If the code is supposed to be written a certain way to work on Tivo then that's all there is to it. It was not done correctly. Because there was no problem with Ultimate TV simply means the code was written correctly for Ultimate TV. Nothing at all to do with Robustness.


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## extension 721 (Sep 29, 2005)

lew said:


> Are there enough (any) Ultimate boxes left for us to be sure they weren't affected?
> 
> DTV is the company that released the guide changes and for weeks denied there was any problems. The log files get U/L during the phone call. DTV *should * have been aware of the problem before all the threads started here.
> 
> ...


agreed. Of course, part of the problem is human nature. If you send 5 million people a message that there's a problem...instead of that calming and placating people, you get 2 million angry calls.

Take for example "error slides"...when a cable/sat co. posts up a message that there's a problem with a channel and they're aware of it, working on it, and please not to call....

about 1/8 of those people who see it will call in, demanding to know the exact time it will be fixed.

If you give a time frame of 1-3 hours, as soon as hour 3 is up....people will be FURIOUS that it isn't fixed by then, because they were "promised" it.

So the status quo is NOT to give estimates of time, and NOT to post information about it unless EVERYONE is affected....because if only 50% of all units are affected, you're not only saving 50% of the people with the units the worry, and 50% of the people from being upset at "faulty equipment", you're saving time for technical support people to provide service for other problems.


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## extension 721 (Sep 29, 2005)

smak said:


> When I buy a Honda, some of the money I pay Honda goes to 50 different companies who make engines, tires, brakes, windows, spark plugs etc...
> 
> Who do I complain to when one of those things goes wrong? You want me to call the company who makes the rearview mirror and complain that it broke?
> 
> ...


at the same time, if your oil furnace gums up...do you call the furnace maker, for a furnace that tends to gum up, or the oil comapny you pay your bills to, for selling gummy oil?


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## extension 721 (Sep 29, 2005)

In my experience with customer service....same CSR...different replies

call#1

Hey, my tivo had some problems..what's going on?

Well, there was a problem in the software that caused some tivos to overload. We are working with tivo to get it fixed. Sorry about the inconvenience. I'll credit your DVR service.

whose fault is it?

Well, it's really both companies....directv and tivo. the tivos couldn't handle the changes like we anticipated. 

call#2

I'm furious and angry and going to cancel this sh**, you guys are incompetant. Why isn't my tivo working?

We're sorry, the software that tivo wrote couldn't handle things like they told us it would.

whose fault is it?

We cleared all the changes with tivo, and they write all the software for their boxes, so we trusted them. We're waiting for them to get the solution to us, so we can make it happen for you.

------

Typically, the more blame is aimed at a person, the more likely they are to shift blame. The angrier a person is, the more irrational they seem, the more likely the object of their irrationality will point a finger.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

extension 721 said:


> at the same time, if your oil furnace gums up...do you call the furnace maker, for a furnace that tends to gum up, or the oil comapny you pay your bills to, for selling gummy oil?


I live in Socal, i don't know what any of that means 

-smak-


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

DirecTV did enjoy one result of it's recent TiVo support problems and was able to move a lot of TiVo customers over to their own DVR and extended the customers commitment by 2 years. Conspiracy? DirecTV was only able to get away with it for so long until someone exposed the scam. It's all tied in with DirecTV's mission to force an inferior cost effective generic DVR on it's TiVo customers.

The one single article that brought DirecTV's DVR shenanigans into the mainstream media started with an in-depth article done by HDTVMagazine.com and led to an admission by DirecTV that a problem with TiVo existed and it would be fixed immediately. Conspiracy? I can't bring up their site this morning, but can give you a link to a lengthy discussion of it.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=75960

I'm glad I'm back with cable and a Series3.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

smak said:


> When I buy a Honda, some of the money I pay Honda goes to 50 different companies who make engines, tires, brakes, windows, spark plugs etc...
> 
> Who do I complain to when one of those things goes wrong? You want me to call the company who makes the rearview mirror and complain that it broke?
> 
> ...


No, you complain to the main company. But the blame isn't exclusively Honda's or Verizon's.

Let's say you got into a bad car accident due to faulty breaks. Would you just sue Honda? How about bad tires, like those Bridgestone truck tires a few years back?

Another good example is the guide data on the stand-alone units. Here, Tivo is the mian provider and Tribune supplies the guide data. When the guide data is wrong, everyone blames Tribune and doesn't blame Tivo. Yet Tivo could have manually adjusted the guide data before sending it out to the units. And it's their DVR service, and they are the ones who picked Tribune, so it is Tivo's fault as well.

I don't see how Tivo always gets a free pass whenever a problem occurs....


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

BobCamp1 said:


> No, you complain to the main company. But the blame isn't exclusively Honda's or Verizon's.
> 
> Let's say you got into a bad car accident due to faulty breaks. Would you just sue Honda? How about bad tires, like those Bridgestone truck tires a few years back?
> 
> ...


Arguments such as this just makes me shake my head ... I don't know how you missed them, but there are TONS of threads here at TCF that are very critical of TiVo, so this free-pass business, IMHO, is just selective memory.

On top of that, the blame game, while fun, is fruitless. Where do you draw the line? Someone at TiVo picked Tribune, so blame TiVo. Who at TiVo actually selected Tribune? Did that person have a quality education? Blame the education system, and who's at fault for that. So you blame property owners who voted down the school budgets, and why? Well, the local employers didn't keep up with cost of living. So you blame ... and on and on and on.

(I think I'm going to call my mother and blame her for something. For this post, certainly. It's all her fault.)


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Here's how I see it. I bought my box from DTV. I pay them a monthly fee. Therefore, from my POV, this is DTV's fault. If Tivo IS partly responsible, then DTV has the responsibility to settle things with them. And to be fair, with the stand-alones, if Tribune screws up, then it's Tivo's responsibility to get the problem fixed, even if they didn't cause it.


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> I guess... I just simply look at these problems a different way...
> 
> I am a software developer, that has spent 10 years in that development, with databases.


Well then you should be fully aware that you don't issue a new software release right before everyone goes home for the holidays and trade show and... everything else you mentioned.

I'm sure you're also aware of integration and stress testing which also was obviously not performed. DTV made a significant change to their system and left town.

Get over it, DTV screwed up. TiVo certainly had a bug of their own but that doesn't mean the blame is theirs. And if you're complaining about not receiving support from TiVo - what's in it for them? TiVo certainly didn't decide to terminate their relationship.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

tivohaydon said:


> TiVo certainly didn't decide to terminate their relationship.


You don't know that. None of you do. The relationship is over that's for sure, but does anyone know why?

Perhaps they simply couldn't reach an agreement. Maybe TiVo wanted more money/control, maybe DTV wanted more exclusivity from TiVo. None of us know, but people around this forum act like DTV left them at the alter when it very well could have been TiVo.

Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I don't know either. That's my entire point.


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