# HD will kill TiVo for me if they don't come back soon



## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

Sorry for the provocative subject line but I've come to the conclusion that unless TiVo come back to the UK really soon with HD capability, they've lost the battle here for good and Sky and cable will have won as they've adapted new technology and TiVo gave up on us 5 years ago as a lost cause.

There's a slim chance if they could make a deal with a Freeview / cable provider in the short term, but HD is the future.

I don't have a solution that'll work for me any time soon as cable will never arrive here in rainy Wales so Sky is the only option that I can opt into if I want HD - but many people in the UK now have an option if they have HD capable TVs.

Freeview HD is the only option for TiVo I'm afraid, but to be honest but that has only been made available to a select few in London. On a trial basis. Ongoing.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

..because we are positively swamped with HD content in the UK aren't we... ?


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

I'd rather watch my programs in SD than miss them in HD. Over DVR providers really need to improve their product before I jump ship.

FWIW I don't believe we'll ever see a next generation tivo in the UK.

















Queue TivoPony ---->


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## d33mb33 (May 13, 2004)

I agree with aerialplug. Like many of my friends I have a "plasma plan", that is, to replace all the AV equipment in my house over the next couple of years.

When I buy my new gear, I want it to last for a good while before I need to replace it again and that means 1080p TVs and HD-DVD or BluRay.

My next PVR is very likely going to be a Vista MCE box. However if Tivo released a HD Freeview box with multiple tuners then I'd buy it in a snap.


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

It's dead for me or near enough now I've got an HD telly.

It's not just about HD content though. If you buy a large screen HD telly you suddenly see how awful TiVo is in terms of picture quality. SkyHD at least will upscale SD channels to HD.

Whilst not swamped for content there is content, and it's growing. Once the Beeb get online properly with HD then we'll see it moving ahead.

With 1080 HD tellies now down to acceptable prices the demand will just be increasing all the time. 720p LCDs can be had for peanuts now and most new TVs sold are HD Ready. Once broadcasters take note they'll ramp up their output. It's like when widescreen TVs got popular enough for the likes of Sky to finally switch.

And besides, I want my Battlestar Galactica in HD 

Also, given I'm holding off on HD-DVD/Blu-Ray until format wars and other things are sorted, then I may actually subscribe to Sky Movies to watch HD movies.



Raisltin Majere said:


> FWIW I don't believe we'll ever see a next generation tivo in the UK.


Short of an Ofcom ruling against broadcasters locking in to proprietary platforms, I am absolutely convinced of this.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Yes, I do have a HD TV, but if SD is so awful on your large screen TV, then you should sort that out via a scaler, or just changing settings. Most content is SD after all.

Freeview doesn't fit tivo's subscription model really. Its more suited to subscription channels like sky or cable, neither of whom have open systems.

Maybe virgin could shake things up by buying tivo's STB software, but chances are slim there.

BTW isn't MCE in the same boat? Sure you can play HD content you have downloaded, but you can't record it from sky....


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

mikerr said:


> Freeview doesn't fit tivo's subscription model really.


In what way? It seems to work fine here.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

ndunlavey said:


> In what way? It seems to work fine here.


People get freeview because they don't want to pay for TV (common opinion)

Paying to record TV goes against this.


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

mikerr said:


> Yes, I do have a HD TV, but if SD is so awful on your large screen TV, then you should sort that out via a scaler, or just changing settings. Most content is SD after all.


The LCD scales internally, and before you say it's probably doing a bad job, DVDs played through RGB SCART look fantastic. TiVo via RGB SCART sucks. Sky via RGB SCART looks not bad.

So it's TiVo that's the problem. Upscaling might help, but the quality is several degrees worse than Sky to start with. Rubbish in = rubbish out after all. Sure I can go 'mode 0' but I need to spend money on cachecards and stuff to do that. May as well just shell out for a SkyHD box.

Oh, and an external scaler is v.expensive from what I've seen. Near on as much as the price of the TV for a decent one! 

I'll probably get an upscaling DVD player though to get even more out of DVDs (like a Denon with HDMI output to 1080p and bonus of SACD/DVD-A playback to make it a little more worthwhile updating my antique but ultra reliable DVD player).


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

aerialplug said:


> I don't have a solution that'll work for me any time soon as cable will never arrive here in rainy Wales so Sky is the only option that I can opt into if I want HD - but many people in the UK now have an option if they have HD capable TVs.


But BT's 21st Century Network and ADLS2+ broadband speeds capable of supporting HDTV via a broadband tv box will be coming your way in 2 to 4 years so there will be an HD alternative to Sky. Indeed in the long run Virgin Media expect to supply non cabled areas via broadband and BT's 21st Century Network.

Yes I can see that if you spend money on a big 43" LCD set then you start to feel Tivo is living in the stone age but as my main priority is content and not a massive visual feast I think I was better off spending £300 upgrading Tivo with a Cachecard and 500Gb of hard drive capacity 20 months ago and making it last as long as possible.

I will review the situation when the BBC launches its HDTV service in a year or so and will probably get one of those HDTV boxes at that stage to run alongside my Tivo. I assume the BBC HDTV box will also be a PVR of some kind? Or may be I will eventually get a secondhand Sky HD box if I can subscribe and desubscribe at will for the odd month as I presently do with my Sky box.

aerialplug its worrying to think that you of all people are thinking of getting rid of your Tivo. Secondhand Tivo prices on Ebay for subbed boxes still suggest that at the current time there is a healthy demand for Tivos amongst those of us happy to tolerate SDTV for a few more years but insistent on having reliable recording.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

DeadKenny said:


> The LCD scales internally, and before you say it's probably doing a bad job, DVDs played through RGB SCART look fantastic. TiVo via RGB SCART sucks. Sky via RGB SCART looks not bad.


I didn't realise you hadn't got mode0.
Tivos wthout mode 0 really suck on LCDs



> So it's TiVo that's the problem. Upscaling might help, but the quality is several degrees worse than Sky to start with. Rubbish in = rubbish out after all. Sure I can go 'mode 0' but I need to spend money on cachecards and stuff to do that.


Mode 0 is free, but yes, you need network access to do it.

You could also get your drive modified by a friend with a networked tivo, 
or pay www.tivoheaven.co.uk to do it. 
Not sure he does mode0 on its own though, not part of a drive upgrade.
Maybe there's an ebay market for _just_ mode 0 mods for £20 or something?

TBH I was amazed at the difference mode 0 made on my LCD, I can't easily
tell the difference between aux and tivo now (yes, really!).

It really is essential for LCDs.


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## frogster (Jan 4, 2006)

DeadKenny said:


> If you buy a large screen HD telly you suddenly see how awful TiVo is in terms of picture quality.


Then presumably you haven't modified your Tivo to Mode0. My Tivo looks perfectly acceptable on my 42in HD plasma.



> SkyHD at least will upscale SD channels to HD.


HD TVs do that also.


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## frogster (Jan 4, 2006)

DeadKenny said:


> The LCD scales internally, and before you say it's probably doing a bad job, DVDs played through RGB SCART look fantastic. TiVo via RGB SCART sucks. Sky via RGB SCART looks not bad.
> I'll probably get an upscaling DVD player though to get even more out of DVDs (like a Denon with HDMI output to 1080p and bonus of SACD/DVD-A playback to make it a little more worthwhile updating my antique but ultra reliable DVD player).


You are doing this all wrong.

To start off with you bought an LCD. That was your first mistake if you are after a good picture, but it's too late now.

Secondly, most DVDs through RGB scart will look just the same as the better channels on Sky via RGB scart. The resolution is the same and the bit-rate is similar. Tivo Mode0 will look worse, but not unduly so if you have your equipment set up correctly (and if you don't have an LCD). An LCD screen will always show you the very worst of any grain or video noise in the source material, and this alone is an excellent reason not to get one. Even with HD source material, LCDs by their very nature will not give the best possible result.

Thirdly, you don't need to buy an upscaling DVD player unless you really want to. Nearly all recent DVD players have progressive scan over component outputs, and these are what you should be using instead of RGB scart. It is a significant improvement, more significant than any other single thing you can do with DVDs, and it only costs about £5 for the cables.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

frogster said:


> To start off with you bought an LCD. That was your first mistake if you are after a good picture, but it's too late now.


Can I take that as a positive recommendation for a Plasma screen to use with a Tivo instead of an LCD one?

I know I have read this from one or two other forum members before and yet others have maintained they see no difference between the best Plasma and LCD sets when used with a Tivo.? 

Or are you saying that one is best off of all using a good 32" CRT widescreen with a Tivo and keeping the LCD/Plasma set money in the bank?


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## frogster (Jan 4, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Can I take that as a positive recommendation for a Plasma screen to use with a Tivo instead of an LCD one?


Yes, every time. With very few exceptions plasmas look much better on both SD and HD source material than LCDs so. With SD even more so.

What you have to remember is that manufacturers and shops both like LCD screens because they don't have the fragility and weight of the glass in plasmas, which means they are easier (= cheaper) to make and sell. They don't care about the picture quality.



> I know I have read this from one or two other forum members before and yet others have maintained they see no difference between the best Plasma and LCD sets when used with a Tivo.?


Some people can't see colour either. That doesn't mean that it isn't there. Other people can see things, but don't care.
I never cease to be amazed by the quantity of people who can see very little, even when you point things out to them. For example, most people either can't see, or don't care about, pull-down effects on video. Yet to me they are glaringly obvious.



> Or are you saying that one is best off of all using a good 32" CRT widescreen with a Tivo and keeping the LCD/Plasma set money in the bank?


When I bought my plasma I was worried about possible picture quality issues with Tivo, but I'm happy. I'm even more happy with the plasma showing DVDs via HDMI at 720p.


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## Stradlingp (Sep 11, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> Or are you saying that one is best off of all using a good 32" CRT widescreen with a Tivo and keeping the LCD/Plasma set money in the bank?


In brief, match the display to the source. IMHO the best display for a TiVo is a widescreen CRT.

I was forced to replace my aged Sony with a planet destroying 42" plasma and while it


is bigger
has no screen distortion
takes up less space
heats the room nicely in winter
the picture quality is *not *as good as the old CRT with SD sources e.g. TiVo Mode 0 and ordinary DVD.

That said, I am happy enough with the Mode 0 TiVo picture (90% of our viewing) though the bitrate of the source channel becomes the critical factor. e.g. a good BBC prog looks HD-like while the footy on ITV can look like its being played by blurry Lego men.

I'm not tempted by Sky+HD due to cost and functionality, a friend of mine has one and they have already had one box replaced, lost "season passes" etc. etc.

"24" on Sky One can also be horrible, I wonder if they do that deliberately to get everyone to switch to Sky+ HD? Its so bad sometimes, I get the episodes from *cough* other sources and they look much better through XCMC.

Unsurprisingly, HD looks jaw-droppingly superb on an HD display. The free trial BBC-HD channel shows what is coming.

I'm not giving up on TiVo yet as Mode 0 is fine, there is (relatively) little HD content out there and a modded Tivo is still the best PVR out there (for me).

*Note to Pete77* : Perhaps start another thread for "Which HD screen is best for TiVo?". I wouldn't mention LCD v. Plasma as that could descend into a religious argument like Mac v. PC, VHS v. Betamax, margarine v. butter, up v. down etc. etc. and that is not where Aerialplug is coming from.

A list of screens good for Mode 0 TiVo could be a useful resource though what a "a good picture" is very subjective, as what is good for me, may make someone else physically sick!​


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Stradlingp said:


> as what is good for me, may make someone else physically sick![/INDENT]


And there was I thinking only food would do that.


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

I have a plasma and haven't modified to mode 0 and I'm perfectly happy with the picture quality from TiVo - it's as acceptable as the 28 inch telly it replaced most of the time.

but...

I suspect that desite the moderately low number of channels currently available, I think HD will really kick in within 5 years in the same way as colour started off slowly due to the expense of a colour set but rapidly took its place to the extent that it was quickly impossible to buy a black and white TV over a certain screen size.

While I don't have a Sky HD box at present (and only recently got Sky+ of which I use nil Sky+ features apart from Sky+'s ability to turn off the forthcoming pin services), I suspect that come the end of this year, I'll probably have invested in a Sky HD receiver, the only way to get HD here in the foreseeable future. When this happens, I'll no longer be able to ignore the fact that TiVo needs to constantly be able to control the main reciever and either I'll have to pay for an extra Sky feed just for TiVo or diminish TiVo's use to Freeview only.

Either way, for the first time I can see a lifetime expectancy for my TiVo. Previous to this I figured I'd be using my TiVo for millenia - or at least until a better product comes on the market, something also I don't see happening in the next year at least, sadly.

FWIW, I have a Panasonic Viera, bought just before Christmas and while there are instances I think a tube telly would have coped better, on the whole I really enjoy the improved screen size.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

aerialplug said:


> While I don't have a Sky HD box at present (and only recently got Sky+ of which I use nil Sky+ features apart from Sky+'s ability to turn off the forthcoming pin services), I suspect that come the end of this year, I'll probably have invested in a Sky HD receiver, the only way to get HD here in the foreseeable future. When this happens, I'll no longer be able to ignore the fact that TiVo needs to constantly be able to control the main reciever and either I'll have to pay for an extra Sky feed just for TiVo or diminish TiVo's use to Freeview only.
> 
> Either way, for the first time I can see a lifetime expectancy for my TiVo. Previous to this I figured I'd be using my TiVo for millenia - or at least until a better product comes on the market, something also I don't see happening in the next year at least, sadly.


Don't forget though that the BBC Trust has given the go ahead for its Freesat HD service to be launched in conjunction with ITV. So that will an alternative to Sky HD if you don't want to pay the Murdoch subscription dollar. Alternatively I suppose one could consider a desubscribed secondhand Sky HD box but only as and when and if Sky ever stop charging £10 per month extra for the mere privilege of watching in HD.

Also HD tv via broadband tv boxes will become an alternative too in due course, even in the remote Welsh hills and valleys.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

aerialplug said:


> I have a plasma and haven't modified to mode 0 and I'm perfectly happy with the picture quality from TiVo - it's as acceptable as the 28 inch telly it replaced most of the time.


You have a large screen plasma and networked tivo, but *haven't* gone mode 0 ! 

Why?

Modes:
0 = 720x576 
4 = 544x576 best
2 = 480x576 high
1 = 352x576 basic & medium

Now tell me you don't want those extra dots ?


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## frogster (Jan 4, 2006)

aerialplug said:


> I have a plasma and haven't modified to mode 0 and I'm perfectly happy with the picture quality from TiVo - it's as acceptable as the 28 inch telly it replaced most of the time.....
> I have a Panasonic Viera


You have bought one of the plasmas that is best for SD material. Well done. It is certainly the best value for the price. You have to spend quite a bit more to get a better picture.

If you change to Mode0 you will like it even more.


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## frogster (Jan 4, 2006)

Stradlingp said:


> I was forced to replace my aged Sony with a planet destroying 42" plasma ....
> the picture quality is *not *as good as the old CRT with SD sources e.g. TiVo Mode 0 and ordinary DVD.


You don't seem to mention which model/brand you bought (and this can make a big difference) but I suspect that the bulk of the difference you notice is simply because the plasma is probably 30% bigger than the CRT it replaced.

Size for size for Tivo use a plasma should look no worse than a CRT, though an LCD of the same size will look worse.

You can test this by standing 30% closer to the CRT for your comparison.


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

frogster said:


> You have bought one of the plasmas that is best for SD material. Well done. It is certainly the best value for the price. You have to spend quite a bit more to get a better picture.
> 
> If you change to Mode0 you will like it even more.


To be fair, I did get advice from some of the world's foremost experts in display screen technology. When half a dozen of my ex-colleagues at the BBC's Engineering Research department buy the same screen(or its superior, which has a few more toys to play with but the same glass), you know you're on to a good one. The advice was Viera for plasma and Sony Bravia for LCD. Seeing then both run side by side you can see why they're much of a likeness.

Actually, I did spend quite a bit more... I bought just before Christmas before the price dropped by £500 in the January sales  

Still, I got a 5 year warranty as part of the pre-Christmas Panasonic shop sales drive.

As to changing to mode 0, I'm afraid I won't like it very much. I do have mode 0 set up on my TiVo but it starts to flash grey at the bottom of the screen quite badly on some material when I use it.

The one niggle I have with the Viera is that is has a relatively large overscan which can't be altered even in the engineering menu. In the days of perfectly aligned screen technology I really don't understand why an overscan is needed. It's especially annoying when I plug my PC into the screen - the start menu is half off screen.



> You don't seem to mention which model/brand you bought (and this can make a big difference) but I suspect that the bulk of the difference you notice is simply because the plasma is probably 30% bigger than the CRT it replaced.


I don't remember off hand the model - it was the current model last Christmas and the one that was almost impossible to get hold of in January.

To be honest, pne of my ex-colleagues pointed out that there can be quite a difference (usually improvement) over the lifespan of a model release. Buying the same plasma today that you bought 6 months ago can often look considerably better - and this isn't because of 6 months of use either.


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

frogster said:


> You can test this by standing 30% closer to the CRT for your comparison.


A lot of people complain about picture quality when they're far too close to the screen. While its true that plasmas and especially LCDs aren't too kind to mpeg encoded material, if you sit at the recommended distance (3 times as far away from the screen as its height - or is that the diagonal?) the picture should look fine and only blatant mpeg artefacts that would be visible on CRT screens should be visible.

While I find this not to be strictly true and certain types of artefacts on lower bitrates show through much worse (such as fine detail on someone's face not moving in line with the rest of the face, or football pitches looking like they're made of felt with lego men playing on them), on the whole I'm now happy with watching a plasma. I saw some of the early plasmas that first came on the market when I started working at the Beeb - and by today's standards these were shockingly harsh to mpeg encoded material.


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## Stradlingp (Sep 11, 2001)

frogster said:


> You don't seem to mention which model/brand you bought (and this can make a big difference) but I suspect that the bulk of the difference you notice is simply because the plasma is probably 30% bigger than the CRT it replaced.
> 
> Size for size for Tivo use a plasma should look no worse than a CRT, though an LCD of the same size will look worse.


I bought an LG 42PC1D so I went from a 32" CRT to a 42" Plasma. Yes, I'm sure the apparent degradation is due to the larger picture. SD pictures weren't optimised at 42" for sure!

I didn't want to upgrade to an HD set quite yet (but was forced to) as both Plasma and LCD have their faults compared with CRT which I'm sure are well known here. I bought the LG which is relatively 'cheap' to tide me over until something decent comes along.

Where is OLED/SED/Laser? 

I'm sure I sound like an old curmudgeon for being down on Plasma/LCD but in my eyes, those technologies are just bigger/flatter/undistorted not 'better' for SD.

Now, HD is another kettle of eels.... I'm very happy with the BBC-HD trial, the picture quality for the rugby and the footie has been spectacular. I guess Sky+HD would be similarly spectacular.

Anyway, for "bigger" I'm quite happy with a projector, a good upscaling DVD player and a 100" screen at the moment  its just that 90% of our viewing is on TiVo on the Plasma which in Mode 0 is fine but not as good as the old 32" CRT 

BTW A friend of mine has a top whack Pioneer plasma 42" and their normal non-TiVo Sky picture is better than mine but still not up to 32" CRT standard.


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## frogster (Jan 4, 2006)

aerialplug said:


> The one niggle I have with the Viera is that is has a relatively large overscan which can't be altered even in the engineering menu. In the days of perfectly aligned screen technology I really don't understand why an overscan is needed. It's especially annoying when I plug my PC into the screen - the start menu is half off screen.


The measured overscan on mine is 5%, which is par for the course. I agree that it would be nicer if one could adjust it for all inputs.

If you are connecting a PC (by VGA or DVI/HDMI) then you can dispense with all overscan by adjusting the output settings of your video card. Possibly with the help of Powerstrip if your card's own drivers aren't much good.

I have a Sapphire HDMI video card and 0% overscan on my Panasonic 42PX60.

1218*688 should do it for you.


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

frogster said:


> Then presumably you haven't modified your Tivo to Mode0. My Tivo looks perfectly acceptable on my 42in HD plasma.


Indeed. As I have said it'll cost me money to go mode 0 as I need the network card and if I did that I'd likely spend money upgrading the disc as well. This is an unmodded TiVo. I see no reason to spend that money on an outdated SD PVR, no matter how good the interface is. May as well buy SkyHD.



> HD TVs do that also.


They don't always do it as well. That's why we have upscaling DVD players and the like (Denon in fact have shunned HD-DVD/Blu-Ray for now and are concentrating on upscaling SD DVD to the best possible quality in 1080p, and all reports are it's truly stunning).



frogster said:


> You are doing this all wrong.
> 
> To start off with you bought an LCD. That was your first mistake if you are after a good picture, but it's too late now.


That's your opinion. A 1080p LCD can be fantastic quality with HD material. I bought the LCD ultimately for HD, not SD.

I've done a lot of research and comparisons and I can assure you LCD won out by miles compared to plasma in my eyes (remember this is subjective so what looks good to me may not to you and vice versa). I also work with LCDs most hours of the day also and I know what the picture quality should look like.

It was true that LCDs weren't so great a few years back, but that's all changed. If you're opinion is based on older LCDs you should check out the latest ones.



> Secondly, most DVDs through RGB scart will look just the same as the better channels on Sky via RGB scart.


I don't agree. All DVDs I've played look better than the best Sky channels via RGB SCART. Even the best Sky channels have poor bit rates compared to a good DVD. Still, Sky looks perfectly acceptible via RGB. Could look better still with good upscaling from the digital source (as a SkyHD box can do).



> Tivo Mode0 will look worse, but not unduly so if you have your equipment set up correctly (and if you don't have an LCD). An LCD screen will always show you the very worst of any grain or video noise in the source material, and this alone is an excellent reason not to get one.


If an LCD is showing every pixel correctly then it will show exactly what the source material is. Sure if it's poor it will enhance that, but that's not the fault of the LCD, it's the fault of the source. It just highlights how much CRTs were essentially distorting the image enough to make crap look perceptively good (in fact it's not, it's just that human eyes can be tricked to believe something is better than it really is, hence the trick of image sharpening ). If SD looks better on a plasma then it makes me wonder just how accurate a plasma image is .



> Even with HD source material, LCDs by their very nature will not give the best possible result.


I don't agree at all there. Have you even seen an HD LCD made in the last year (set up correctly with a decent HD source)? Gobsmacked is all I can say, and all the plasmas I've demoed haven't left me the same.



> Thirdly, you don't need to buy an upscaling DVD player unless you really want to. Nearly all recent DVD players have progressive scan over component outputs, and these are what you should be using instead of RGB scart. It is a significant improvement, more significant than any other single thing you can do with DVDs, and it only costs about £5 for the cables.


Don't agree at all either. Everything I've seen of good quality upscaling players shows they are far better quality than just RGB SCART and component.

Also progressive scan is not so relevant as LCDs are by their very nature progressive and will convert interlaced to progressive internally (which is exactly what a progressive scan DVD player does also).

However, my DVD player is not progressive scan or upscaling. If I got say a Denon upscaling player it is both progressive scan and upscales to 1080p. While the TV will also upscale it doesn't do as good a job.



frogster said:


> The measured overscan on mine is 5%, which is par for the course. I agree that it would be nicer if one could adjust it for all inputs.


I'm surprised you don't rate LCDs and yet you admit you have a TV that overscans and therefore will not be giving you 1:1 pixel mapping . That's an instant recipe for non-perfect quality. A good LCD will do 1:1 pixel mapping (mine certainly can at 1920x1080 on HDMI inputs). Essential for HD inputs.

Anyway, I didn't really want to to argue about the quality of LCDs . I'm very happy with the HD quality. I can say categorically that it is fantastic :up:. SD quality is perfectly acceptable (DVDs look much better than on my Sony WEGA CRT)... except with TiVo. Yeah mode 0 may fix it but I'm not keen on shelving out money to do it when I could get SkyHD, plus I'm concerned about the white flashes I hear about with mode 0.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

DeadKenny,

For someone with such an obsessive interest in the technical minutiae of matters I find it remarkable you have never wanted to spend the utterly trivial sum required to buy a Tivo Cachecard and upgrade the hard drive.

Then for a sume equivalent to less than 3 months of your first year's Sky HD subs plus installation you could have had 101 extra interesting matters of technical minutiae to discuss with other members of this forum for the last several years.

If you only have a 40Gb unmodded Tivo then no one wonder you regard it as a pedestrian device that can be easily replaced by Sky HD.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

DeadKenny said:


> I don't agree at all there. Have you even seen an HD LCD made in the last year (set up correctly with a decent HD source)? Gobsmacked is all I can say, and all the plasmas I've demoed haven't left me the same.
> 
> QUOTE]
> IMHO the Fujitsu 58 series (and most probably the new Aviamo) plasma panels look way way better than any LCD I have seen.
> ...


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## Stradlingp (Sep 11, 2001)

Uh-oh, a new front on the LCD v. Plasma war has opened up here as I feared  

Remember they are are both utter rubbish, bring back 405-line black and white. No ghosting, blurring, image retention or 5 degree viewing angles in those days  

Anyway, going slightly back on topic, anyone who has forked out for an HD TV really should get Mode 0 sorted out by hook or by crook.

There is a good (short-ish) thread in this forum which is a good HowTo and makes it very easy to do (if you have a cache card/turbo net etc.)

Yes, the flashes on the bottom of the screen on the BBC channels can be distracting but the human brain is very good at filtering those out and I barely notice them any more.

My TiVo will be running for at least another year I reckon. Lets hope either TiVo come back to the UK/Europe or something better than Sky+HD comes along by then!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Stradlingp said:


> Lets hope either TiVo come back to the UK/Europe or something better than Sky+HD comes along by then!


The Virgin Media Broadband/Cable Tv Tivo perhaps?

I would also give your Tivo more than another year's life. Three at least sounds more like it if you ask me.


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## frogster (Jan 4, 2006)

DeadKenny said:


> As I have said it'll cost me money to go mode 0 as I need the network card ....


As far as I know you don't need a network card to enable Mode0 on a Tivo. I'm sure one of the Linux gurus will correct me if I'm wrong.



> If you're opinion is based on older LCDs you should check out the latest ones.


I've installed about 50 42" (or bigger) screens of both types over the last 2 years. People pay me to do this in my spare time. I'm putting in a 50PX600 tomorrow afternoon and did a Sony 40X2000 one evening earlier this week. In fact I don't think there is any brand that costs over £1500 that I haven't installed. I know how they perform and few if any of the LCDs are worth bothering with.



> If an LCD is showing every pixel correctly then it will show exactly what the source material is.


No. LCDs introduce numerous picture faults of their own, notably the total inability to display black, but also some nasty remanence effects. Plus the fact that LCD screens just don't look nice to the eye. It's like film and video; another difference that many people can't see.



> Also progressive scan is not so relevant as LCDs are by their very nature progressive and will convert interlaced to progressive internally (which is exactly what a progressive scan DVD player does also).


There is more to this than you imagine. As you said yourself, not all TVs do this well. Not to mention the common inability to process pull-down effectively.

£5 for component cables is the best cheap way to improve picture quality from DVD on any flat screen.



> I'm surprised you don't rate LCDs and yet you admit you have a TV that overscans and therefore will not be giving you 1:1 pixel mapping .


Not all LCDs have 1080 panels either, you know.



> That's an instant recipe for non-perfect quality. A good LCD will do 1:1 pixel mapping (mine certainly can at 1920x1080 on HDMI inputs). Essential for HD inputs.


But pointless on SD material. Like many others, my screen has a native resolution of 768, so no input (apart from a PC) will ever be 1:1 mapped on it. Besides which, if you are using any sort of upscaling (and for DVD or SD TV on any HDReady screen you *must* be doing so) the notion of 1:1 pixel mapping goes out of the window anyway. I know that almost all my viewing for the projected life of the screen will be SD material. And that applies to most people here buying a new screen today. So they should think about buying a screen that gives the best result for SD material, and then doing what they can to improve the way that material is supplied to the screen.

If you get the SD right then the HD will largely take care of itself.

Even the SkyHD box won't do 1080p (there is no current intention of *ever* including it in the spec) so to have a 1080p capable screen is a waste of time unless you are getting a 1080p HD/BR player to go with it. A lot of the Sky so-called HD material isn't HD at all, just upscaled SD.


----------



## frogster (Jan 4, 2006)

Stradlingp said:


> ... anyone who has forked out for an HD TV really should get Mode 0 sorted out by hook or by crook.
> Yes, the flashes on the bottom of the screen on the BBC channels can be distracting but the human brain is very good at filtering those out and I barely notice them any more.


Yes. Mode0 is well worth having and the few flashes (perhaps a maximum of 30 per hour, and only on some types of image on some channels) are far less distracting than the resolution of the standard "best" Tivo setting.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

frogster said:


> Even the SkyHD box won't do 1080p (there is no current intention of *ever* including it in the spec) so to have a 1080p capable screen is a waste of time unless you are getting a 1080p HD/BR player to go with it. A lot of the Sky so-called HD material isn't HD at all, just upscaled SD.


Agreed. Unless you sit 1 foot away from your screen or use it as a PC monitor working with 1900x1080 resolution photos you should always buy a quality 720p screen instead of a poorer 1080p one IMHO.

1080p is really required for screens over 80" at standard viewing distances IMHO.
It starts to be noticeable at over 50", and is probably essential at 150".

There are so many other factors that effect image quality other than resolution, so one should consider the overall PQ if you are using it for watching films and TV.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

frogster said:


> As far as I know you don't need a network card to enable Mode0 on a Tivo.


There are two ways to 'enable' Mode 0:-

1. Get a network card and make the changes via TiVoWeb and/or telnet.

2. Image a drive from a backup taken from a Mode 0-enabled TiVo.

There is no 3rd way. You can't do it in a PC as you need to have the TiVo database engine running to make the changes to the bitrates and resource settings.

Of course, you could send your drive/TiVo away and have somebody enable Mode 0 in-situ for you - but that's just a a variant of method 1; or you could purchase a pre-configured drive already enabled with Mode 0, or download a program to image a drive from a Mode 0 enabled backup - but both those are just alternative ways of achieving method 2.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

frogster said:


> Yes. Mode0 is well worth having and the few flashes (perhaps a maximum of 30 per hour, and only on some types of image on some channels) are far less distracting than the resolution of the standard "best" Tivo setting.


You are unlucky if you get that many flashes on a regular basis.

Both my TiVos (one Sky, one Freeview) are Mode 0 enabled at high bitrates and I can't remember the last time I saw a white flash on either of them... no, wait, maybe I saw one last week... or did I?


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## Andy Leitch (Apr 30, 2005)

Stradlingp said:


> Anyway, going slightly back on topic, anyone who has forked out for an HD TV really should get Mode 0 sorted out by hook or by crook.


All this 'casual' talk of having a Mode 0 enabled Tivo, is forgetting the fact that the vast majority of the remaining UK Tivo's are unmodified.

The few hundred or so seasoned tivo'ers here with hacked machines is not representative of what's left of the UK Tivo population.

How many Mode 0 owners have modified their flat panels by having their screen ISF calibrated?

How many people here have hacked their cars' ECU to run a different fuelmap?

How many people here are running hacked drivers on their gfx cards or even hacked bioses to extract the maximum amount of performance from their equipment?


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

blindlemon said:


> There are two ways to 'enable' Mode 0:-
> 
> 1. Get a network card and make the changes via TiVoWeb and/or telnet.
> 
> ...


3. Gain serial access and make the changes via TivoWeb?

Not a lot different from 1. admittedly, and more fiddly. But if you don't want to pay for a network card, it may do


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Raisltin Majere said:


> 3. Gain serial access and make the changes via TivoWeb?


Agreed - I forgot that one as I've never had the patience (or need) to bother with serial access


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

As a neutral in the LCD/plasma wars (I run a DLP rear projector and before that had a 36-inch CRT), who has seen a lot of supposedly state of the art sets including SED, I'd chose plasma over LCD every time, manly because of the black levels.

As for Hywel's original post, I'm pretty much there now. It's very very rare for me to watch anything from my main TiVo now; it's running as a backup in case Sky+HD screws up for pay TV. My Media Centre blows both Sky+HD and TiVo away with picture quality for free to air stuff.

Kids still us theirs, but even then MCE is starting to take over.

Lots of TiVo users are AV enthusiasts, and the point has come for many that the compromises on picture quality aren't compensated for by the ease of use.


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

frogster said:


> But pointless on SD material. Like many others, my screen has a native resolution of 768, so no input (apart from a PC) will ever be 1:1 mapped on it. Besides which, if you are using any sort of upscaling (and for DVD or SD TV on any HDReady screen you *must* be doing so) the notion of 1:1 pixel mapping goes out of the window anyway. I know that almost all my viewing for the projected life of the screen will be SD material. And that applies to most people here buying a new screen today. So they should think about buying a screen that gives the best result for SD material, and then doing what they can to improve the way that material is supplied to the screen.


As I say. Primarily I bought the telly for HD. In the early stages I'll be viewing more SD material of course but long term this is an HD set (a full HD one at that). Upscaling however is not necessarily all that bad. I can categorically say that DVD upscaled on my TV is actually superior to how it looked on my Sony WEGA. Though that was a 100Hz set 



> Even the SkyHD box won't do 1080p (there is no current intention of *ever* including it in the spec) so to have a 1080p capable screen is a waste of time unless you are getting a 1080p HD/BR player to go with it. A lot of the Sky so-called HD material isn't HD at all, just upscaled SD.


SkyHD boxes do 1080i however and Sky eventually decided to broadcast in 1080i. 720p signals are derived from the 1080i interlaced broadcast stream.

Yes 1080i is interlaced, but when it comes to pixel based sets, as I've said it's not particularly relevant as 1080i is essentially 1080p as far as the set is concerned. 1080i as far as Sky is concerned is a bandwidth saving means of transmission. Whilst each field is half the resolution, two fields making up a frame is 1080 and a pixel based set (be it LCD or plasma) will recombine progressively. Of course there are still pulldown issues but these are much reduced compared to interlaced CRTs.

Of note, I've played 720p material and whilst it is indeed upscaling, it's still stunning and the upscaling is not really noticeable (well compare with 1080p and it is, but 720p still looks pin sharp and much better than DVD, even on a 1080p set). 1080p sets are not a waste of money just because 1080p isn't being broadcast. When it comes to HD-DVD/Blu-Ray of course everything is 1080p anyway and players actually downscale to churn out 720p.

Anyway, LCD vs Plasma. There are ups and downs of both. Whilst Plasma has perceived better black levels (well it just doesn't have a bright backlight like LCDs does to wash out blacks), it does have a fuzzy kind of inaccuracy that I can't live with. Much the same as CRTs. Personal choice though. A lot of people prefer CRTs but I have the same problem with inaccuracies.

Tell me this though. Why has Sony decided to cease production of plasmas?



Pete77 said:


> DeadKenny,
> 
> For someone with such an obsessive interest in the technical minutiae of matters I find it remarkable you have never wanted to spend the utterly trivial sum required to buy a Tivo Cachecard and upgrade the hard drive.


Cachecard around £90. £50 for the memory. Then maybe £50 to £100 for a decent sized disc. All to squeeze that last drop out of a signal that's been converted from digital to analogue to digital again and back to analogue (and digital again into the TV), and with a service that has no future and no potential of ever having HD.

Or... spend £200 on a SkyHD box and then a £10 a month sub (same as a TiVo monthly sub), and get a superior signal decoded direct from the digital stream, output to 1080i or 720p resolution (upscaling SD, and then there's the HD material also), and have a service that's constantly being updated and improved.

Hmm. Tough choice 



> If you only have a 40Gb unmodded Tivo then no one wonder you regard it as a pedestrian device that can be easily replaced by Sky HD.


Hence what I said originally.

I've stated my box is unmodded, and I've laid out the reasons why I don't really see any value in going 'mode 0' especially long term, including my desires ultimately to go HD (after all, what's the point of an HD telly?).

So, instead of the pointless arguments over LCD vs Plasma and 720 vs 1080, let's get back to the original post about HD killing off the need for TiVo. I've stated my case. It's my opinion and choice, as is my choice of TV. Whether you guys like my choice is not my problem. That there's no future in TiVo in the UK and no chance of TiVo HD in the UK *is* my problem however. Resolve that and sure I'll stick with TiVo


----------



## frogster (Jan 4, 2006)

Raisltin Majere said:
 

> 3. Gain serial access and make the changes via TivoWeb?


That was the one I was thinking of.


----------



## frogster (Jan 4, 2006)

DeadKenny said:


> Primarily I bought the telly for HD.


Then any discussion of Tivo or SD material is pointless for you. Most of the rest of us live in the real world though, and realise that it will be *many years* at the earliest before HD forms more than 50% of their viewing. By all accounts, and thanks to Ofcom, Freeview viewers will be waiting for ever.



> Of course there are still pulldown issues but these are much reduced compared to interlaced CRTs.


Not at all. The pull-down problem is inherent in interlaced source material that started life as film. Either you remove and replace the erroneous frames individually or you don't. And if you don't then you get judder, no matter how your screen works.



> 1080p sets are not a waste of money just because 1080p isn't being broadcast.


I so no point paying for something that I can't use. I would rather have good picture quality on material I watch every day.



> Tell me this though. Why has Sony decided to cease production of plasmas?


Probably for the same reason I mentioned earlier in this thread: LCDs are cheaper to make and to sell.

Mind you, they may have done it for the same reason they put copy-protection software in the form of root-kits onto audio CDs (which cost them billions), or for the same reason they made millions of faulty batteries for laptops (which cost them more billions), or for the same reason they released the European model of the PS3 several months late and missing the chipsets that make it compatible with PS2 games.

Or maybe the Sony management are just bonkers.



> Cachecard around £90. £50 for the memory.


You don't need either. A £5 serial cable will get you Mode0.



> Or... spend £200 on a SkyHD box and then a £10 a month sub (same as a TiVo monthly sub),


I don't pay a monthly £10 sub for Tivo. Nor would I ever. I will never pay anything to Sky either.



> So, instead of the pointless arguments over LCD vs Plasma and 720 vs 1080, let's get back to the original post about HD killing off the need for TiVo.


HD will only kill off my Tivo when I no longer watch SD TV material. As a Freesat viewer this isn't going to happen to me for years. And as I mentioned previously, for Freeview viewers it may never happen.


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

For me, it's all about the programmes. I'd rather have off air recordings of the original series of Doctor Who than 1080p, DTS 6.1 ES copies of "Celeb" Love Island.

It's also all about the ease of use. Having used a variety of PVRs - it's obvious that our S1 TiVos are just about the best. There are some glaring omissions, but for such old technology it holds its own incredibly well.

As for the HD issue... it's a bunch of Emperor's New Clothes.
1) Most of the people who think they have HD, don't. The esteemed members here are the exception.
2) 576p -> 720p ISN'T the huge leap in quality that it is for the Americans (480 -> 720)
3) Bitrate and colour settings have more to do with quality than resolution. Case in point, a well captured DivX of something like "24" encoded at 352*207 - blown up to 92" on my projector.... I can see every pore and follicle on Jack Baur's face. Some low-res rips look even better than commercial DVDs.

For now, the TiVo wins out because it is easy to use and it is quiet. Come the day it dies, I'll go through the interface and clone it onto Ubuntu / MythTV / Next Best Thing.

Just my thoughts.

T


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

terryeden said:


> For now, the TiVo wins out because it is easy to use and it is quiet. Come the day it dies, I'll go through the interface and clone it onto Ubuntu / MythTV / Next Best Thing.
> 
> Just my thoughts.
> 
> T


Cloning the interface and UI is not a big deal.
Lots of pretty looking DVR interfaces are out there.
Providing quality metadata that makes the whole thing work as well as TiVo is the issue.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

terryeden said:


> As for the HD issue... it's a bunch of Emperor's New Clothes.
> 
> 2) 576p -> 720p ISN'T the huge leap in quality that it is for the Americans (480 -> 720)


Technically true, from 480i is a bigger leap than from 576i, but nevertheless it is a huge, huge leap.



> 3) Bitrate and colour settings have more to do with quality than resolution. Case in point, a well captured DivX of something like "24" encoded at 352*207 - blown up to 92" on my projector.... I can see every pore and follicle on Jack Baur's face. Some low-res rips look even better than commercial DVDs.


Bitrate is of course vitally important. I want both!



> For now, the TiVo wins out because it is easy to use and it is quiet. Come the day it dies, I'll go through the interface and clone it onto Ubuntu / MythTV / Next Best Thing.


May as well save yourself the work and get MCE or Vista!


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

DeadKenny said:


> Tell me this though. Why has Sony decided to cease production of plasmas?
> QUOTE]
> Because they could not make plasmas anywhere as good as Fujitsu!
> 
> ...


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cyril said:


> Cloning the interface and UI is not a big deal.
> Lots of pretty looking DVR interfaces are out there.
> Providing quality metadata that makes the whole thing work as well as TiVo is the issue.


And at present only MCE/Vista has that, of the available alternatives.

Sky+HD is viable as long as you use it "traditionally" ie, for timeshifting recordings of a relatively small set of shows. I think I've recently been running with six series links.

If you want to operate entirely from the hard disk, as you can with TiVo, it's not up to it.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

TCM2007 said:


> Technically true, from 480i is a bigger leap than from 576i, but nevertheless it is a huge, huge leap.
> 
> Bitrate is of course vitally important. I want both!
> 
> May as well save yourself the work and get MCE or Vista!


I think he might have been talking about using it with Sky.

For Freeview, MCE or Vista is a no-brainer.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

frogster said:


> Then any discussion of Tivo or SD material is pointless for you. Most of the rest of us live in the real world though, and realise that it will be *many years* at the earliest before HD forms more than 50% of their viewing.


Depends on your viewing habits.

In recent weeks with the Six Nations and Guinness Premiership in HD, Bones, Battlestar, Atlantis and SG-1 on Sky One, plus, ahem, Heroes, and catching up with some BBC stuff like Torchwood I reckon I must be nearing 50% of viewing on HD now.

If I was more into films and football or Lost and 24 I'd be well over it. This weekend with the Masters on HD on the BBC i will be!


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

TCM2007 said:


> Depends on your viewing habits.
> 
> In recent weeks with the Six Nations and Guinness Premiership in HD, Bones, Battlestar, Atlantis and SG-1 on Sky One, plus, ahem, Heroes, and catching up with some BBC stuff like Torchwood I reckon I must be nearing 50% of viewing on HD now.
> 
> If I was more into films and football or Lost and 24 I'd be well over it. This weekend with the Masters on HD on the BBC i will be!


There's a fair amount of HD stuff in the states that we don't get in HD here (ahem, Heroes, Sopranos).

I've dreamed of getting a pair of TiVo series 3s and having them shipped back and forth between here and the USA. Not environmentally friendly or cheap though .

Of course there are ways to get HD stuff that can't be discussed here.

But TiVo should allow us UK users to buy a TiVo Series 3 in the USA and enable TiVo-To-Go in HD so we can watch it here for those of us who can get 24Mbit broadband


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## Tony Hoyle (Apr 1, 2002)

I'm always torn - I'm aware of how poor the Tivo screen really is compared to HD (IMO it does SD better than a SkyHD box.. the SkyHD box internally deinterlaces and does a crap job of it). OTOH as another poster put - it's better to watch your programme in SD than miss it in HD, and Sky+ simply isn't anywhere near reliable enough to trust to record things that you must watch.

The closest I've seen to Tivo is the Topfield+Series Link TAP which is damn near 100% reliable at least on BBC channels (Freeview Playback still isn't broadcast by ITV despite the fact they said they'd be doing it by now...). Once HD Freeview comes along I'll have to make a decision, and it aint looking good for Tivo (and Sky actually, since I'd probably ditch that too.. I'm down to 2 mixes already).


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I must say I think Sky are now pretty much on top of the reliability stuff. I've had two failed recordings since last May. I've had many more than that from the TiVo (admittedly due to the regular Sky box locking up rather than TiVo itself, but a failure is a failure).


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## Tony Hoyle (Apr 1, 2002)

Well since last may, I've had countless times when all the *future* recordings have failed due to 'power failure', I've had complete corruption of the planner requiring a reformat twice, Series links are *constantly* dissapearing to the extent that I had a notebook with a list on and had to check it every day.

The killer that made me give up on Sky+ was christmas - because most of the series I was watching skipped a week it deleted all the series links. Probably much the same will happen over easter.

IMO Sky have a long, long way to go with their system before it's reliable enough to be usable.

As far as Tivo goes up until last year I had no failures at all until they borked FRO, then I switched that off for all programmes and it hasn't failed since.. only issue is it records far too much now.

Currently I have a mix - Sky+ for stuff I don't care about very much (esp. HD channels), and Tivo for the important stuff that can't be missed. That way when the series links screw up I can just sigh and reenter them again without missing things that I really wanted to watch.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Tony Hoyle said:


> Well since last may, I've had countless times when all the *future* recordings have failed due to 'power failure', I've had complete corruption of the planner requiring a reformat twice, Series links are *constantly* dissapearing to the extent that I had a notebook with a list on and had to check it every day.


I guess different people have different experiences then. I have had future series links drop off once since last May - but TiVo has missed stuff due to new series being on a different ID - no system is perfect.

I certainly haven't seen anything like the chain of disasters you describe. Maybe my box is more reliable?



> The killer that made me give up on Sky+ was Christmas - because most of the series I was watching skipped a week it deleted all the series links. Probably much the same will happen over easter.


They fixed that ages ago; series links now persist for two weeks not one so survive Xmas/Easter/Wimbledon - I guess the Xmas/New Year copmbination could ahve cause shows to drop off for three weeks?



> IMO Sky have a long, long way to go with their system before it's reliable enough to be usable.


It's nowhere near as good as TiVo, but "unusable" is harsh, given 2m use it every day!



> As far as Tivo goes up until last year I had no failures at all until they borked FRO, then I switched that off for all programmes and it hasn't failed since.. only issue is it records far too much now.


FRO has been broken from the day it was introduced in 2002.


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## Tony Hoyle (Apr 1, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> They fixed that ages ago; series links now persist for two weeks not one so survive Xmas/Easter/Wimbledon - I guess the Xmas/New Year copmbination could ahve cause shows to drop off for three weeks?


No this was programmes that only missed a week - some of them it was just that the day had changed. This wasn't a long time ago either - last christmas.

Series links are as knackered as ever. I setup a bunch of stuff yesterday and it's already deleted the SG-1 series link this afternoon... and when is there *ever* not an episode of that due on Sky One? 7 days? It's not lasting 7 hours...



TCM2007 said:


> FRO has been broken from the day it was introduced in 2002.


Actually it used to work quite well, then it started becoming pretty useless and the started using the US FRO dates for everything, at which point I ditched it.


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## Stradlingp (Sep 11, 2001)

TCM2007 said:


> It's nowhere near as good as TiVo, but "unusable" is harsh, given 2m use it every day!


And to give idea of how some of those are using it, my friend who has Sky+HD (and is pretty IT literate) came up to me excitedly one day and said

"you can even pause live TV!"

This was after about a month of having it 

GGMS...

I wonder how many Sky+HD owners are just using it as an HD receiver/VCR and never use Series links etc.

A bit like the number of TiVo owners with HD TV's and have not installed Mode 0 would be my guess


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Tony Hoyle said:


> Series links are as knackered as ever. I setup a bunch of stuff yesterday and it's already deleted the SG-1 series link this afternoon... and when is there *ever* not an episode of that due on Sky One? 7 days? It's not lasting 7 hours...


It's strange how peoples experiences vary. I have in the last few months watched every episode of SG-1 from the very first to the end of season 8, all recorded from one Series Link that worked perfectly.

One thing with series links is that they work differently to season passes in that they are specific for the exact "thread" of showings - set an SG-1 from the 4pm weekday slot, and you'll get all the 4pm SG-1s but never get the 11pm ones or any at weekends. If you set a link from one of the "best of Sg-1" showings, say, you would not get any more.



> Actually it used to work quite well, then it started becoming pretty useless and the started using the US FRO dates for everything, at which point I ditched it.


It has always suffered from many incorrect first showing dates - take a browse through the archived errors thread sometime!


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

frogster said:


> You don't need either. A £5 serial cable will get you Mode0.


Have you got any details/links on how to do that then?

I'd still likely want to upgrade the disc (or discs as I suspect mine is a 2 disc model), as mode 0 will take up a lot more room. There's expense there and a fair bit of effort. Though I use linux and run my own linux web and mail server, I'm at the point these days where I'm reluctant to play about with computers at home considering it's my day job as well. I'd rather just pay for something I can just plug in and go. I could pay for someone to do the upgrade, but then as I say I'm back to that cost on a device that's 7 years old vs the choice of just getting SkyHD instead and be done with it.

I'm not knocking TiVo. I know it's vastly superior as a PVR and I love it to bits, but for HD use it's redundant.

I wouldn't say HD is so far away either. We've been saying that for years and yet this year and the next will see the largest uptake of HD sets (the majority of sets sold will be HD in fact). Sky's HD service is new yes, but give it a year and the output will have increased a lot. Once the BBC get their act together things will move along nicely. And then there's HD-DVD/Blu-Ray. Still in the midst of their war, but I'd give it a year before one or the other falls (hopefully Sony's massively expensive format ).

Don't forget also the extensive source of HD material from overseas via 'certain' methods over the Internet 

I have to say though that I chose to go with an HD TV because I always intended to when I replaced my existing TV, however it was not something I just decided to do one day as my existing TV has effectively given up the ghost. With HD on the horizon it would seem madness to go buy another SD TV. I certainly wasn't going to buy a CRT as I'm fed up with the bulk and weight of them (mine is 70kg!!), so it's a flat panel and the majority are HD. Sure I could have gone with an SD and bought an HD a couple of years later but that's just a waste of money.



TCM2007 said:


> FRO has been broken from the day it was introduced in 2002.


It was working fine for me until the new Battlestar Galactica reached it's third season.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

DeadKenny said:


> I certainly wasn't going to buy a CRT as I'm fed up with the bulk and weight of them (mine is 70kg!!)


Heh, weight, just how often do we lift TVs anyway?

As for bulk (depth), most LCDs end up with a large empty space behind them where the CRT used to sit


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

DeadKenny said:


> I'd still likely want to upgrade the disc (or discs as I suspect mine is a 2 disc model), as mode 0 will take up a lot more room.


You can replace a pair of drives with a single large drive to reduce cost, noise and heat 


DeadKenny said:


> mode 0 will take up a lot more room


Mode 0 recordings can actually take up *less* space if you enable VBR with "save disc space" as VBR works very well with the bitrates most people use for Mode 0, whereas "save disc space" does absolutely nothing on an unmodified TiVo because the bitrates are set incorrectly by default.

My Mode 0 "best" recordings at 7500000/9000000 VBR take up typically around 25% _less_ space than equivalent length recordings at the standard "best" (mode 4) bitrate of 5960000 CBR :up:


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

DeadKenny said:


> Have you got any details/links on how to do that then?


Mr Tickle had something in his sig. Haven't seen him around in a while, bu he'll be in the members list.

I followed Black Widow's guide when I did it, although there are some changes needed in the UK. These can be found via Mr Tickles sig.

I think this is black widow's guide: http://black-widow000.150m.com/TiVo-PPP/index.htm


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

DeadKenny said:


> Have you got any details/links on how to do that then?
> 
> I'd still likely want to upgrade the disc (or discs as I suspect mine is a 2 disc model), as mode 0 will take up a lot more room.


Not if you ennble VBR while you're at it, the two more or less cancel out.


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

Raisltin Majere said:


> People get freeview because they don't want to pay for TV (common opinion)
> 
> Paying to record TV goes against this.


Ah, I see what you mean.


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

mikerr said:


> Heh, weight, just how often do we lift TVs anyway?


True, though whenever I decorate I need to shift it, same goes for just messing about with the cables at the back, and when buying and selling I need to get such TVs into and out of the flat (1st floor flat) which is a pain in the backside to say the least. In fact I've got a 32" Sony WEGA sitting in the living room that I need to shift but I can't shift it myself.



> As for bulk (depth), most LCDs end up with a large empty space behind them where the CRT used to sit


You could mount it on the wall though 



TCM2007 said:


> Not if you ennble VBR while you're at it, the two more or less cancel out.


Interesting. Are there any side effects of VBR? I'm concerned about these white/grey flashes people report on mode 0.


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

Raisltin Majere said:


> Mr Tickle had something in his sig. Haven't seen him around in a while, bu he'll be in the members list.
> 
> I followed Black Widow's guide when I did it, although there are some changes needed in the UK. These can be found via Mr Tickles sig.
> 
> I think this is black widow's guide: http://black-widow000.150m.com/TiVo-PPP/index.htm


Ah right. I get it now. Found Mr Tickles post too...

http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=1014379#post1014379

That's TiVoWeb via serial PPP.

I was just assuming all you'd get via serial is a bash prompt and all the instructions are for TiVoWeb, but yeah PPP would do it (should have realised given how dial-up Internet works through PPP) 

Hmm, okay I may give this a go then. I can probably knock up the cable myself as I have a mountain of spare cables and sure I've got a serial and stereo jack end, and I've got the spec for the wiring.

Ah... just thought though. My laptop doesn't have a serial port (crazy that it has a pointless parallel port though!). Oh well, I can drag the beast desktop/tower into the living room I guess. I've got an antique laptop that I use as a serial terminal but it's an old 486 laptop that only runs DOS


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

I don't remember where I got it, but I got a cable with USB at one end and serial at the other.

Although it would probably just be easier to mnove the desktop than find one of those


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## BrianHughes (Jan 21, 2001)

Raisltin Majere said:


> I don't remember where I got it, but I got a cable with USB at one end and serial at the other.
> 
> Although it would probably just be easier to mnove the desktop than find one of those


Maplin.co.uk have them. You can probably get then on ebay too.


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