# Tivo and New FCC Law on cable cards



## saboken (Jul 15, 2012)

I was a former Tivo user but since the FCC, passed the new law's about cable cards I can see a rapid decline in Tivo customers! since The service is actualy free I wont post how but these new laws just gave the US consumers the right to record and access the EPG free of charge using what a lot of people already own! plus one purchace, I see the forum has not been very busy since this law was passed and other companys started selling hardware that allows free recording and access to the EPG and the Cable co can't block access to your recordings even if you cancel your account or move, if you already paid to watch and or record the show you shold have access to it at anytime! I am curious how Tivo will resond to the loss of customers?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

You're not specifically paying for the program guide when you purchase the Tivo service. You're paying to use the software that's on the Tivo. You can actually download guide data without a subscription. You just can't record anything without it. You will always have access to any recordings on the Tivo even after you cancel service.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Saboken, you've said the same basic thing in 2 threads, what's the "New FCC law on CableCARDs" that you keep referring to?

There's been no mass exodus of Tivo users, it's summer, forum traffic is probably slightly lower because of that.


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## saboken (Jul 15, 2012)

My reason for the post is I get everything Tivo offers including whole home DVR access and the only cost is the cable subscription and a $2.00 mo cable card I don't have to pay a third party to use my DVR



mr.unnatural said:


> You're not specifically paying for the program guide when you purchase the Tivo service. You're paying to use the software that's on the Tivo. You can actually download guide data without a subscription. You just can't record anything without it. You will always have access to any recordings on the Tivo even after you cancel service.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> Saboken, you've said the same basic thing in 2 threads, what's the "New FCC law on CableCARDs" that you keep referring to?
> 
> There's been no mass exodus of Tivo users, it's summer, forum traffic is probably slightly lower because of that.


+1 :up:

Come on Saboken, tell us what you're really up to!


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## saboken (Jul 15, 2012)

The law that makes my DVR free to use I don't have to pay anyone to use the equipment I own, when you buy a Tivo you have to pay them a monthly service fee right I get everything TIVO has to offer but I don't have to pay to use my tuner except for the Cable card rental fee! The law has opened up a new market and my comment on the forum activity has nothing to do with summer most of the post are from 2008? that's a long summer LOL


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## saboken (Jul 15, 2012)

dlfl said:


> +1 :up:
> 
> Come on Saboken, tell us what you're really up to!


I'm not up to anything just taking advantage of what the FCC has allowed me to legally do without paying a toll to access what should be free to anyone that owns there own hardware, and most people have what they need minus a tuner to use your owned hardware with out paying a middleman, it's the same with M$ and there little box were they charge you to access services you have already paid for!! I'm waiting for the day automobile company's start to charge extra to use the radio in your car. also the may not be that new but there are company's out there that have taken advantage of the new law to create hardware to use a Cable card, My Cable Co is currently under investigation with the FCC for failing to obey the law and deduct the cost of there hardware they want to charge me ala carte if I return the equipment, so I still have it since it cost less to just put in the closet until the FCC forces them to obey the law! they did the same when I had the TIVO but now the rules are different since I own everything and none of it has a usage fees attached to them.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

saboken said:


> The law that makes my DVR free to use I don't have to pay anyone to use the equipment I own, when you buy a Tivo you have to pay them a monthly service fee right I get everything TIVO has to offer but I don't have to pay to use my tuner except for the Cable card rental fee! The law has opened up a new market and my comment on the forum activity has nothing to do with summer most of the post are from 2008? that's a long summer LOL


Are referring to the change that is the Bring Your Own Equipment policy?
Because I don't think that the way you're referring to things is correct.

You can't get a "free Tivo" you have to pay Tivo for access to their service, you can do a HTPC, but you'll still need a CableCARD, and yes guide data for an HTPC can be found at no charge in some situations as can other DVRs, but none IMNSHO compare to the Tivo experience and I'm not seeing an explosion in non-Tivo 3rd party DVR activity out there.

There's no "magic new law" that makes everything free that you seem to be implying in all of your posts.


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## saboken (Jul 15, 2012)

dianebrat said:


> Are referring to the change that is the Bring Your Own Equipment policy?
> Because I don't think that the way you're referring to things is correct.
> 
> You can't get a "free Tivo" you have to pay Tivo for access to their service, you can do a HTPC, but you'll still need a CableCARD, and yes guide data for an HTPC can be found at no charge in some situations as can other DVRs, but none IMNSHO compare to the Tivo experience and I'm not seeing an explosion in non-Tivo 3rd party DVR activity out there.
> ...


Magic law LOL yes I am talking about HTPC with a Cable card tuner and extenders you pay once for your hardware and that's it no magic no one is charging me to use the card or record to however many hard drives I have attached I don't have to pay to network my DVR most people own a computer I happen to own quite a few but the one I am using is on 24/7 since it is being used for a PC based Video security system but this works in any PC and wakes it up as needed so the bottom line is the LAW allows me to get what the cable co wants to charge me for and also Tivo charges for! for no cost the EPG guide is free in all cases! you paid for your Tivo right? you own it right? but you have to pay to use it? doesn't make sense now that there are options out there that could hurt Tivos sales, this is no different than M$ charging to access the net on a box you own! and you have already paid your ISP for the net and HULU and Netflix a fee there service! I just never understood how people see this as acceptable? the cost of the tuner I have and each XBOX extender is less than buying tivo units for each tv in my home and I don't have a fee attached since the Xbox fee is not required to access anything on my home network! if a drive goes bad I get it replaced under warranty if it has not run out, or buy a new one but if a Tivo goes bad you have to pay when you get a replacement or upgrade? how is that fair even if my PC dies I just put the tuner in another PC and I'm done I don't have to pay anyone! anymore! as far as the Law no it's not new but the competition is based on the newest Law! my cable co is not happy since they have to deduct over $40.00 a month from my bill. Tivo is not offering anything MCE can't give me free! so the moral of the story is why would anyone pay extra to use features in equipment they own? Direct TV gets away with it by not selling there receivers anymore you never really own them and dish lets you buy there receivers but there is a outrageous fee involved for choosing to own them that makes the option a bad financial decision.


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## saboken (Jul 15, 2012)

dianebrat said:


> Are referring to the change that is the Bring Your Own Equipment policy?
> Because I don't think that the way you're referring to things is correct.
> 
> You can't get a "free Tivo" you have to pay Tivo for access to their service, you can do a HTPC, but you'll still need a CableCARD, and yes guide data for an HTPC can be found at no charge in some situations as can other DVRs, but none IMNSHO compare to the Tivo experience and I'm not seeing an explosion in non-Tivo 3rd party DVR activity out there.
> ...


I guess if I get kicked for referring to products but Ceton and SiliconDust both 
have multi tuner cards, usb tuners, and a network tuner that provides all that Tivo has at a one time cost and yes many have abandoned Tivo when they became aware of these products! they work with any cable company that a Tivo works with support 3D and with my 2 TB external drive I can record a lot more than what Tivo has provided in there boxes I regularly have 3 HD sets viewing 1080i programs on different channels with no issues and have the ability to record 4 HD channels at a time, a feature I get that Tivo doesn't have is the ability to transfer any unencrypted content to DVD with one click, pause rewind continue in another room get Netflix and soon access the content on a smart phone away from home but this feature is still in beta! so how I see it I have what you have and I once had at a much lower cost.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

The monthly fee isn't the only pricing option for Tivo. Another option is to pay a one time fee for lifetime service. The cost of the Tivo with lifetime service is often cheaper than building an HTPC, plus you don't have to build a computer, install windows and apply the updates.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

saboken said:


> Magic law LOL yes I am talking about HTPC with a Cable card tuner and extenders you pay once for your hardware and that's it no magic no one is charging me to use the card or record to however many hard drives I have attached I don't have to pay to network my DVR most people own a computer I happen to own quite a few but the one I am using is on 24/7 since it is being used for a PC based Video security system but this works in any PC and wakes it up as needed so the bottom line is the LAW allows me to get what the cable co wants to charge me for and also Tivo charges for! for no cost the EPG guide is free in all cases! you paid for your Tivo right? you own it right? but you have to pay to use it? doesn't make sense now that there are options out there that could hurt Tivos sales, this is no different than M$ charging to access the net on a box you own! and you have already paid your ISP for the net and HULU and Netflix a fee there service! I just never understood how people see this as acceptable? the cost of the tuner I have and each XBOX extender is less than buying tivo units for each tv in my home and I don't have a fee attached since the Xbox fee is not required to access anything on my home network! if a drive goes bad I get it replaced under warranty if it has not run out, or buy a new one but if a Tivo goes bad you have to pay when you get a replacement or upgrade? how is that fair even if my PC dies I just put the tuner in another PC and I'm done I don't have to pay anyone! anymore! as far as the Law no it's not new but the competition is based on the newest Law! my cable co is not happy since they have to deduct over $40.00 a month from my bill. Tivo is not offering anything MCE can't give me free! so the moral of the story is why would anyone pay extra to use features in equipment they own? Direct TV gets away with it by not selling there receivers anymore you never really own them and dish lets you buy there receivers but there is a outrageous fee involved for choosing to own them that makes the option a bad financial decision.


You're very confused.

There is no law providing for free electronic program guides. Microsoft licenses the guide information and makes it available, currently free of charge, to authorized users of the Windows Media Center software, based on this license: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/...edia-center/privacy-windows7-terms-of-service

Microsoft sells the Windows operating system, some versions of which come with Windows Media Center. You can configure this software on appropriate PC hardware including various tuners, including over-the-air and CableCARD based tuners, video cards, and media extenders. Third parties can provide software enhancements compatible with Media Center, some provide them for free, some sell them for a price.

Tivo sells a product that includes hardware and custom software. Their product requires a monthly fee or purchase of a lifetime service for the device. The device is self-contained and turnkey. TiVo provides access to many additional services such as Netflix, Amazon On Demand, Xfinity OnDemand (currently being rolled out to select markets) and other video delivery services.

Other companies may sell other CableCARD-compatible products, under whatever terms they may choose to sell and service them.

The "law" you keep referring to requires that the Cable Company provide you the right to connect your own equipment to their service and to make use of it to whatever degree that equipment supports and to not be charged for equipment rental that may be otherwise priced into their service plans that you do not have installed and do not want to have installed, and provides that the Cable Company provide the same conditional access device (CableCARD) for your provided equipment that they would provide in their own.


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## saboken (Jul 15, 2012)

shwru980r said:


> The monthly fee isn't the only pricing option for Tivo. Another option is to pay a one time fee for lifetime service. The cost of the Tivo with lifetime service is often cheaper than building an HTPC, plus you don't have to build a computer, install windows and apply the updates.


most people have computers so you only need to buy a tuner and as far as the lifetime Tivo I see a lot of complaints about transferring it to new units when they fail or upgrade, also I don't need a Tivo for each TV just one computer it could be a laptop the total cost is still lower! upgrades are less expensive repairs are less expensive I just have to replace the part that failed not the whole computer if a drive goes I buy a new drive, if the power supply dies $30-$40 and I'm up and running again if the tuner goes it has a 1 year warranty and they have a very low failure rate less than 1% the Cable cards die first I have seen some go through 5-6 cable cards and the tuner still works because it is a simple device the Card does 90% of the work, like I said I was once a Tivo owner but the cost involved and the propitiatory nature of the devices just don't make sense anymore! and if you only have one TV you can use Linux which is free to run the tuner on but yes Linux is a bit difficult to the novice PC user, but most PC's prebuilt in past few years have W7 pre installed on them, and the company's making the cards will walk a novice through the install, they are even using the attorneys to help me enforce the FCC law my cable company has chosen to ignore! so I see this as progress and soon system pre built with these tuners pre configured Just add Cable card! I did the math in one year my cost is paid for the second year I save $513.00 a year over having the Cable co tuners with Tivo I would only save $333.12 a year and I don't have to pay $499.99 for a lifetime service I already paid that to Sirus but there a different kind of service that does not offer any content that is free! so I don't know how anyone can argue with saving over $500.00 a year for the same thing just delivered another way.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

saboken, 

There are plenty of previous discussions in the forums here about Ceton and SiliconDust CableCARD discussions, it's not like you have found out "the big secret". A lot of the assumptions and generalizations you've made about both Tivo issues, and HTPC non-issues are just your opinions, Tivo units do not have the death knell you seem to feel they do.

I'm not sure what your agenda is, but trying to spread the gospel of non-Tivo solutions in a forum full of folks that love and support Tivo units isn't going to get you a lot of converts, most of us know the alternatives and have chosen to be with Tivo. I run both an HDHomerun prime and 2 Tivo units, I prefer the Tivos, but the HDR has its place.

p.s. paragraphs, sentences, and line breaks are your friends, please feel free to use them to help make your posts more readable; because so far they're just one giant mass of words that are not always understandable.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

saboken said:


> most people have computers so you only need to buy a tuner and as far as the lifetime Tivo I see a lot of complaints about transferring it to new units when they fail or upgrade, also I don't need a Tivo for each TV just one computer it could be a laptop the total cost is still lower! upgrades are less expensive repairs are less expensive I just have to replace the part that failed not the whole computer if a drive goes I buy a new drive, if the power supply dies $30-$40 and I'm up and running again if the tuner goes it has a 1 year warranty and they have a very low failure rate less than 1% the Cable cards die first I have seen some go through 5-6 cable cards and the tuner still works because it is a simple device the Card does 90% of the work, like I said I was once a Tivo owner but the cost involved and the propitiatory nature of the devices just don't make sense anymore! and if you only have one TV you can use Linux which is free to run the tuner on but yes Linux is a bit difficult to the novice PC user, but most PC's prebuilt in past few years have W7 pre installed on them, and the company's making the cards will walk a novice through the install, they are even using the attorneys to help me enforce the FCC law my cable company has chosen to ignore! so I see this as progress and soon system pre built with these tuners pre configured Just add Cable card! I did the math in one year my cost is paid for the second year I save $513.00 a year over having the Cable co tuners with Tivo I would only save $333.12 a year and I don't have to pay $499.99 for a lifetime service I already paid that to Sirus but there a different kind of service that does not offer any content that is free! so I don't know how anyone can argue with saving over $500.00 a year for the same thing just delivered another way.


Periods. are. your. friend.


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## saboken (Jul 15, 2012)

aadam101 said:


> Periods. are. your. friend.


 Yes they are sorry I have been working all night and need to get to bed so I am sorry about the Typing so in my final statement I just had a chat with Tivo support/sales to clear up any misconceptions I may have had, and I was not proven wrong by the sales person the chat went as follows.

" Roderic: Hi, my name is Roderic. Are you an existing customer?
TiVo Customer: no just looking for info
Roderic: Welcome, how may I help you today?
TiVo Customer: do you need a tivo for each tv?
Roderic: Yes, it is recommended to have a TiVo box for each TV.
TiVo Customer: is there a way to use one tivo for more than one tv?
Roderic: It's possible to output a TiVo box to more than one TV, but the same output would be displayed.
TiVo Customer: ok
Roderic: I would recommend an RF conversion kit for the TiVo remote if you go with that setup. 
Roderic: That would allow the TIVo remote to work through walls.
TiVo Customer: how many tuners are in the tivos?
TiVo Customer: I see one with 4 what do the thers have?
Roderic: The Premiere and Premiere XL are dual tuners. These work with analog and digital cable as well as over-the-air antenna.
Roderic: The Premiere XL4 is a quad tuner. This works with digital cable only.
TiVo Customer: ok so what do I get for the monthly subscription that a PC cable card tuner can't give me?
Roderic: A TiVo service plan is needed to allow a TiVo box to download guide data, record, allow the interactive HD interface to work and to allow access to the many extra multimedia features.
TiVo Customer: ok I have a ceton infintv pcix tuner that allows me to get the guide free and allows me to access the tuners through the network on any PC or tv in my home with no monthly fee except the cable card rental, what are the extra multimedia features?
Roderic: The extra multimedia features are online video and music streaming from sources such as Netflix, Hulu Plus, Pandora and more.
TiVo Customer: ok I can get those through my PC free also is there anything I get from the tivo that my PC can't get to warrant the subscription fee?
Roderic: Well, a TiVo box is a nice all-in-one unit that's usually cheaper than a similar home theater PC.
Roderic: It also has an efficient design that uses very minimal power compared to a PC (usually uses only about 26 watts of power).
TiVo Customer: OK I was just wondering since the PC was only about $400.00 and the Tuner $199.00 and your 4 tuner Tivo is $399.00 and I would need one for 3 tv's thats $1200.00 plus the service and a Cable card for each
Roderic: How much recording capacity does the PC have?
TiVo Customer: and my Pc uses about 75 watts to operate unlimited tv's
TiVo Customer: I have a 2 tb external drive that gives me over 500 hours of HD and I can add drives as needed
TiVo Customer: it's closer to 600 hours and the unencrypted content can be burned right to disk to watch on any dvd player
Roderic: You might be interested to know that TiVo boxes can network with your computer as well. So if you'd like to try our award winning TiVo box, you can link it up and save shows to your computer as well.
TiVo Customer: but I still need a box for each tv if someone wants to watch different shows on more than 1 TV right
Roderic: That's correct.
Roderic: This does increase overall storage, of course.
Roderic: TiVo box recordings can also easily be managed online at http://www.tivo.com/spm. This is very useful if you have more than one unit to avoid duplicate recordings.
TiVo Customer: OK I just needed to see if there were any benefits to using a Tivo over what I have this is a very expensive option and I can access my tuner with a smart phone to manage recordings so I can't justify the cost
TiVo Customer: MCE warns me if there are any conflicts or if I am attempting to record a show I have
Roderic: Understood.
Roderic: Is there anything else I can help you with today?
TiVo Customer: nope just needed to verify my suspicions thanks
"

The Tivo is an Expensive option that provides nothing that I don't already get with out the Tivo Service fee, and at a much lower hardware cost! I asked the questions and Tivo provided he answer's if they offered free Hulu, Netflix, Sirius/XM, or some other service I am already paying for. I could see paying for Tivo but paying for a box for each TV when a XBOX 360 4 gig is $199.00 ea for each TV, and only needing 1 cable card I can't see any Justification in paying for Tivo service.


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## saboken (Jul 15, 2012)

dianebrat said:


> saboken,
> 
> There are plenty of previous discussions in the forums here about Ceton and SiliconDust CableCARD discussions, it's not like you have found out "the big secret". A lot of the assumptions and generalizations you've made about both Tivo issues, and HTPC non-issues are just your opinions, Tivo units do not have the death knell you seem to feel they do.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to convert anyone I'm just trying to understand the cost and as far as my typing as I said below I just worked a 20 hour shift and sometimes typing is hard when you need sleep! and I wasn't expecting all this resistance just looking for a logical answer for paying for something that is/can be free with a drastically lower ownership cost? I just had a chat with Tivo to try to justify the cost and explain if they were offering something I cant get with my setup and there are no benefits just a added cost! but I am done I made my point I am not employed by Ceton or SiliconDust! I am just a consumer like everyone else. I need sleep so I am done here.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

saboken said:


> The Tivo is an Expensive option that provides nothing that I don't already get with out the Tivo Service fee, and at a much lower hardware cost! I asked the questions and Tivo provided he answer's if they offered free Hulu, Netflix, Sirius/XM, or some other service I am already paying for. I could see paying for Tivo but paying for a box for each TV when a XBOX 360 4 gig is $199.00 ea for each TV, and only needing 1 cable card I can't see any Justification in paying for Tivo service.


I get it, you're not feeling that the Tivo service, GUI, and product is of value TO YOU...I still have no idea why you felt the need to come in and start a thread with a vague reference to an FCC change and getting services for free.

There are plenty of other discussions on non-Tivo solutions in the forums already, but by far since this is a community of Tivo enthusiasts, you're going to get a pro-Tivo user base.

No problem, been nice meeting you, I'll wave on my trips through the interwebz.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> No problem, been nice meeting you, I'll wave on my trips through the interwebz.


saboken should really stay away from that bacon flavored vodka.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

dswallow said:


> You're very confused.


Indeed it would seem so. As far as I can tell, this "new" FCC reg of which he speaks might well be the Telecommunications Act of 1996. A 16 year old reg can hardly be called "new".



dswallow said:


> There is no law providing for free electronic program guides. Microsoft licenses the guide information and makes it available, currently free of charge, to authorized users of the Windows Media Center software, based on this license: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/...edia-center/privacy-windows7-terms-of-service


Of particular interest might be this clause: "The EPG is provided to you free of charge. As noted above with respect to changes to the terms of this Agreement, Microsoft reserves the right to change prices, or institute new charges for the EPG, at any time with thirty (30) days' notice to you."

Does anyone want to bet "any time" will be when Microsoft terminates support of the version of Media Center being run by the user?



dswallow said:


> Tivo sells a product that includes hardware and custom software. Their product requires a monthly fee or purchase of a lifetime service for the device. The device is self-contained and turnkey. TiVo provides access to many additional services such as Netflix, Amazon On Demand, Xfinity OnDemand (currently being rolled out to select markets) and other video delivery services.


More to the point, the TiVo business model sells the hardware at a loss, and allows the user a choice of either paying up front for the remainder of the cost of delivering the hardware and the forecasted cost of the EPG over the expected life of the unit, or else paying off the deficit over time.



dswallow said:


> The law you keep referring to requires that the Cable Company provide you the right to connect your own equipment to their service and to make use of it to whatever degree that equipment supports and to not be charged for equipment rental that may be otherwise priced into their service plans that you do not have installed and do not want to have installed, and provides that the Cable Company provide the same conditional access device (CablleCARD) for your provided equipment that they would provide in their own.


That is not a single law. Most of that is covered under the 1996 regs, but the rental equipment charges relate to a ruling that came about last year - also hardly "new". Some of it is related to the regs that went into effect in 2007.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

saboken said:


> The law that makes my DVR free to use I don't have to pay anyone to use the equipment I own, when you buy a Tivo you have to pay them a monthly service fee right .............L


Since when do you have to pay TiVo Monthly? You have an option to pay monthly, but you also have a pay once option which is lifetime service. Which also makes the most sense because a lifetime TiVo has a high resale value. When a new TiVo comes out, you sell the old lifetime TiVo to cover the bulk of the cost of a new TiVo with lifetime service.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> saboken should really stay away from that bacon flavored vodka.


Bacon flavored Vodka? I'm drawing a total blank on that one.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> Bacon flavored Vodka? I'm drawing a total blank on that one.


http://www.twolumps.net/d/20120706.html


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## cannonz (Oct 23, 2011)

How many pages back would you have to go for 2008 posts.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> Since when do you have to pay TiVo Monthly? You have an option to pay monthly, but you also have a pay once option which is lifetime service. Which also makes the most sense because a lifetime TiVo has a high resale value. When a new TiVo comes out, you sell the old lifetime TiVo to cover the bulk of the cost of a new TiVo with lifetime service.


The main point is, "ownership" in this case has a twist. Although legally one owns the TiVo up front, even if it is provided free of charge by TiVo, as some sales campaigns have done, the actual cost of the TiVo to TiVo, Inc. is much higher than the up-front cost of the TiVo. The consumer is then offered two options to pay off the additional cost to TiVo. One is to pay a monthly "subscription" fee. This fee is calculated to make TiVo a profit over the expected life of the unit. If one keeps the service for a period less than that which would pay off the unit, then one has obtained the unit and its capabilities for less than would otherwise have been the case. It's not all that much different than leasing a car, rather than buying it, except that at the termination of an automobile lease, one is not usually entitled to sell the car.

TiVo is not a charity, and they are fully entitled to recover their costs to deliver the unit plus a reasonable profit. The same is true of an HTPC, except that the profit obtained by Microsoft is vastly unreasonable. TiVo, however, has decided to allow the user reduce sticker shock by paying off a large part of the cost of delivering the unit on a monthly basis. It would be no different than if Microsoft offered the option of paying $8 a month to use Windows + Media Center, rather than forking out $200 up front.

TiVo also offers the user the option of simply purchasing the entire ball of wax right up front. This is PLS, and the purchase price of a TiVo with PLS gets TiVo a very slim profit. In general, an HTPC costs more than a TiVo with PLS. It also has none of what I consider the most important features of my TiVos. *NONE*


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

I wouldn't exactly call Windows Media Center free anyway. You are paying for it and in Windows 8 you will be paying more for it than before.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/windows-8-media-center-functionality-likely-to-cost-more/19805


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aadam101 said:


> I wouldn't exactly call Windows Media Center free anyway. You are paying for it and in Windows 8 you will be paying more for it than before.
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/windows-8-media-center-functionality-likely-to-cost-more/19805


Well it is free with the $39.99 Windows 8 upgrade offer.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Well it is free with the $39.99 Windows 8 upgrade offer.


Except they've gutted it all but out of Win8 and it's there only as a legacy afterthought.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Well it is free with the $39.99 Windows 8 upgrade offer.


That sounds good. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to get windows 8 at a low price. The last few versions of windows, I only paid around $20 to $30 for each license for all my PCs. I was afraid with Windows 8 that might come to an end. $40 would be a little more expensive, and only be an upgrade, but I'll take that over paying $100 each for six licenses.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I think it's apparent the saboken is either confused or sleep deprived. There is no new law that I'm aware of that lets consumers use their own hardware for receiving TV. Cablecard devices have been around for years as have cablecard tuners for a PC. ATI had one available years ago, but it was originally limited to use with a turnkey system. Windows Media Center has been around since the days of XP, circa 2005.

Saboken, do a search for my previous post history and you'll find that I've been promoting cablecard tuners and HTPCs for quite some time in these forums. Your post is hardly a revelation to anyone here.


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## klambert (Dec 2, 2005)

Before we switched to TIVO, I spent a 3 day weekend of frustration with a HTPC and cablecard tuner. The hardware installation and all that was easy enough, but no matter how many hits from comcast or checking that the card was correctly paired, I could never get all our channels. Finally, I decided that wasting a long weekend was enough.

If it's not worth it to someone who's done Windows tech support for a living for the last 15 years, I don't think it's going to appeal much to the masses.

I'd love to see MS make the software stable, but right now the rights management and mismatching hardware are just a disaster. Unfortunately, they be charging more for it in Windows 8, but I haven't heard that they're doing anything to improve it.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I've activated several cablecard tuners with no problems. The last one I did was a self-install that went smooth as silk. Sounds like your issues were more cablecard related than a PC problem. You never mentioned whether you tried a different card so chances are you got a bad one, which apparently isn't all that uncommon.

HTPCs and cablecard tuners are a niche product that won't appeal to the masses. It's definitely aimed at more of a geek crowd than your average TV viewer. They're not at all difficult to set up and use, unless you run into hardware issues, then all bets are off. They can be frustrating at times, but once you've worked out the kinks I think they're worth it in the end. I see PC problems as a challenge rather than a roadblock. I don't get challenged by my HTPC much these days as they've all been running fine for quite some time now.


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## CybrFyre (Mar 25, 2008)

saboken said:


> The law that makes my DVR free to use I don't have to pay anyone to use the equipment I own, when you buy a Tivo you have to pay them a monthly service fee right I get everything TIVO has to offer but I don't have to pay to use my tuner except for the Cable card rental fee! The law has opened up a new market and my comment on the forum activity has nothing to do with summer most of the post are from 2008? that's a long summer LOL


In theory, yes... however, no one has really come out w. a cable card device rivaling the Tivo. Google TV might have a chance if it were to include such functionality, assuming they get the remote and the ui right (as well as the price point). Windows Media Center is Windows only and, IMHO, clunky.

So really, it's Tivo or nada.

And, even with the Tivo monthly service fee PLUS the cable card monthly service fee, I still save a few dollars a month over what I would pay for Time Warner's own DVR service. Plus I save the headache of using one of Time Warner's devices.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

CybrFyre said:


> In theory, yes... however, no one has really come out w. a cable card device rivaling the Tivo. Google TV might have a chance if it were to include such functionality, assuming they get the remote and the ui right (as well as the price point). Windows Media Center is Windows only and, IMHO, clunky.
> 
> So really, it's Tivo or nada.
> 
> And, even with the Tivo monthly service fee PLUS the cable card monthly service fee, I still save a few dollars a month over what I would pay for Time Warner's own DVR service. Plus I save the headache of using one of Time Warner's devices.


Well, that's strictly a matter of opinion and one that a lot of HTPC users would disagree with. My HTPC with 7 cablecard tuners and 6 ATSC tuners puts my Tivos to shame. I was a loyal Tivo user for about 12 years until I started using Windows Media Center with a cablecard tuner. As far as DVR use, a WMC PC with cablecard tuner can do everything a Tivo can do and much more. I unplugged my lifetime S3 Tivo several months ago and nobody misses it.

If you want a cablecard tuner then right now Windows Media Center is your only choice until someone else decides to get a DVR app certified by Cable Labs. The Media Center Interface is just another menu hierarchy, just like Tivo's. Both setups have their pros and cons. Tivo has a lot of useless crap piled onto their OS that I have no interest in using. WMC is more streamlined, but can be modified to do just about anything you want. With Tivo you're pretty much limited to whatever Tivo, Inc., decides you ought to have.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

No, it can't do everything a Tivo can - Tivo's WLs with advanced search are far better than WMC's limited WL capability, and in general Tivo is much more accurate in what it records for first run only shows. WMC will routinely record dupes of shows and the guide data is generally not as up to date.

As you said, both setups have their pros and cons but Tivo is a superior DVR IMO. WMC is much more useful for other capabilities including extenders and other types of media playback, but for basic DVR features Tivo is better.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

It can do the majority of what a Tivo can do and many things the Tivo can't. I'll admit the search engine in a Tivo is superior, but since I rarely use the search feature it's of little importance to me. You have to decide for yourself what features matter to you. For my use, a WMC PC does everything I need it to do and far more than what my Tivo has to offer to fill my needs. FWIW, I set up a wishlist to record a concert I missed on HDNet about six months ago. The other day I looked at my recordings and WMC had detected a rebroadcast of the concert and picked it up automatically.

Guide data is beyond the control of either Tivo or WMC. You get what you get. Tivo doesn't generate the data, they get it from Tribune Media and pass it along to your DVR. Same goes for WMC, except it get the data from Zap2It. Both devices are at the mercy of the data provider. I can manually download guide data updates anytime I want in WMC. With a Tivo you can manually connect to the mothership and hope you'll get an update. Both devices automatically download data on a regular basis with no intervention required. Neither one gives you more than 14 days of data, and it's more like 12 days in reality. The issues you're describing with recording dupes is a product of the guide data, not the DVR. It only records what it perceives to be a new recording, same as a Tivo. I'd agree that Tribune Media may provide better data than Zap2it, but since it's free I can't really complain. Neither source will provide last minute schedule changes if the DVR hasn't connected since the data was updated.

If you're talking about use as a basic DVR, both devices are dead even, IMHO. You set up a season pass or a one-shot recording and it gets recorded. If there's a conflict then either device will reschedule the recording for the next airing of the program. I set up season passes in Media Center years ago for shows and I've never had to change them, nor have I ever missed a recording of a season pass program. It does everything I need as well as my Tivos ever did.

Every app that's on a Tivo is essentially available on a PC, as are countless others that Tivo doesn't have. Most of the crap that's on a Tivo is available on my smart phone. WMC even has a NetFlix app built-in and another to pick up internet programming. The real kicker is that I can play Blu-Rays and DVDs via my HTPC without having to convert anything or upload it to a Tivo. I simply rip it to my server and stream it to any room in the house with full HD audio. I literally have every media source available to me via one device. I don't even have to change inputs on my preamp/processor.

Tivos are great DVRs, but they have some serious limitations in a Home Theater system. A Tivo is just a component in a Home Theater whereas an HTPC can be the centerpiece for every type of media you can think of. An HTPC is far more than just a DVR.


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## 241705 (Mar 9, 2010)

mr. unnatural: I am a TiVo owner but have thought about building a dedicated HTPC. Without getting too specific on numbers, based on your experience how much is the hardware/software investment for a dedicated HTPC w/CableCard tuners compared to products from TiVo? Thanks.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I can answer that because I have both setups in my house - a 4-tuner Tivo with lifetime is around $750, a comparable 2TB 4-tuner HTPC around $700 (could be less). Cablecard, of course.

Where the HTPC gets cheaper is if you need more than one Tivo, because you can buy Xbox extenders for $200 or less but with Tivo need to spend around $500 for a lifetime Premiere. That may get a lot cheaper in the fall if Tivo actually releases their IP 'extender' box.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The cost of a HTPC all depends on what kind of setup you want. A cablecard tuner with 3-4 digital tuners will cost about $150-200, depending on the model and whether it's on sale. You can easily build a basic HTPC for $300 or even less with a standard case, but expect to pay a bit more if you want a component style case. Figure another $100 for a Windows 7 license. There are other apps you can buy for additional features, but many of the good ones are available for free, like MakeMKV and XBMC.

As slowbiscuit said, one benefit is that extenders are a whole lot cheaper than buying additional Tivos with a service plan. I'm not a huge fan of extenders, but I'll be in the upcoming Ceton Echo extender beta testing program in September so that may change. I currently use individual HTPCs at each TV with a SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime triple tuner networked cablecard tuner to feed them TV signals. Since FIOS is implementing the copy once flag on some or all of their channels I may end up switching back to extenders in order to share recorded programs, although that really hasn't been an issue in my household.

A huge benefit is that with a PC you can add as many tuners as you like. WMC actually has a limit of four tuners of each type (digital cable, QAM, and ATSC), but the current Ceton InfiniTV4 drivers increase that limit to about 30, IIRC. There's also an app called TunerSalad Footlong that bumps up the limit to 12 tuners of each type.

Another plus is that there's no magic involved if you want to increase your storage capacity. No expensive drives to purchase from Weaknees or any of the other opportunists out there. Just grab the drive of your choice off the shelf and install it like any other hard drive in a PC. You also don't have to buy a special Tivo if you want DVD playback.

If you really want to try building an HTPC, try installing a tuner card in an existing Windows 7 PC and run through Media Center setup. See if you like the interface and take it for a test run. This way you don't have to spend a fortune just to see if you like it. Worst case is you'll have to put the tuner up for sale on ebay. If you find it's something you'd like to pursue then build one for yourself. Check out the Home Theater Computer section at the AVSForums for guides on building your own HTPC with recommended hardware listings. There's a guy there named Assassin that has a blog with lots of guides for configuring an HTPC with just about anything you want (the link is in his signature and his posts aren't hard to find). I think he charges something like $25 to join, but the info he provides is well worth the cost of admission.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> The cost of a HTPC all depends on what kind of setup you want. A cablecard tuner with 3-4 digital tuners will cost about $150-200, depending on the model and whether it's on sale. You can easily build a basic HTPC for $300 or even less with a standard case, but expect to pay a bit more if you want a component style case. Figure another $100 for a Windows 7 license. There are other apps you can buy for additional features, but many of the good ones are available for free, like MakeMKV and XBMC.
> 
> As slowbiscuit said, one benefit is that extenders are a whole lot cheaper than buying additional Tivos with a service plan. I'm not a huge fan of extenders, but I'll be in the upcoming Ceton Echo extender beta testing program in September so that may change. I currently use individual HTPCs at each TV with a SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime triple tuner networked cablecard tuner to feed them TV signals. Since FIOS is implementing the copy once flag on some or all of their channels I may end up switching back to extenders in order to share recorded programs, although that really hasn't been an issue in my household.
> 
> ...


How many HTPC systems use about 20 watts 24/7 as the TP does ? One must maintain a computer, no problem for some but my wife would nuts, she has enough problems with her laptop computer.
HTPC is good for some people, I have a Vantage Q computer lighting system for my home, I love it but most people think a simple on/off switch is good enough, and almost never gives one problems, but I am into my computer lighting system and like the idea that it is just a few program steps to change the definition of any switch in my home, each to their own.


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

I have 4 S2DTs on DirecTV, and since January I added an HTCP with 2 dual-tuner HD HomeRuns for antenna. The HTPC has performed flawlessly and now all of my OTA season passes are on it. The next step will probably be to add an InfiniTV 4 and switch to Comcast.

P.S. Zap2it is just Tribune Media's web interface. The guide data that WMC gets from there is exactly the same as TiVo.


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## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

lessd said:


> How many HTPC systems use about 20 watts 24/7 as the TP does ? One must maintain a computer, no problem for some but my wife would nuts, she has enough problems with her laptop computer.
> HTPC is good for some people, I have a Vantage Q computer lighting system for my home, I love it but most people think a simple on/off switch is good enough, and almost never gives one problems, but I am into my computer lighting system and like the idea that it is just a few program steps to change the definition of any switch in my home, each to their own.


Precisely why mr.unnatural said:


mr.unnatural said:


> You have to decide for yourself what features matter to you.


Neither option is one-size-fits-all but that's pretty typical with any selection of options on any topic.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> How many HTPC systems use about 20 watts 24/7 as the TP does ? One must maintain a computer, no problem for some but my wife would nuts, she has enough problems with her laptop computer.


Sounds like my wife. I made an attempt to get the family to use extenders when I first started using Media Center and it failed miserably. The main PC was having issues and it ground the entire viewing household to a halt when it crashed. The issues have long since been resolved but I had to resort to going back to using a set-top box for the bedroom and the Tivo went into the family room. The STB is still in the bedroom, but the Tivo has been replaced with a separate standalone HTPC and the wife has actually warmed up to it. Of course, the minute something doesn't go right she starts pressing every button she can find and totally hoses things up. She does not get along well with technology. She thought the vacuum cleaner was broken because the brush wasn't spinning until I showed her the big button on the front for turning the brush on and off.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Sounds like my wife. I made an attempte to get the family to use extenders when I first started using Media Center and it failed miserably. The main PC was having issues and it ground the entire viewing household to a halt when it crashed. The issues have long since been resolved but I had to resort to going back to using a set-top box for the bedroom and the Tivo went into the family room. The STB is still in the bedroom, but the Tivo has been replaced with a separate standalone HTPC and the wife has actually warmed up to it. Of course, the minute something doesn't go right she starts pressing every button she can find and totally hoses things up. She does not get along well with technology. She thought the vacuum cleaner was broken because the brush wasn't spinning until I showed her the big button on the front for turning the brush on and off.


Wives and TiVo do go together better than most other options.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

The OP is right that there are many less expensive options for DVR function than TiVo.

Just like when I want to go over and visit my daughter. I can ride my less expensive bicycle or my BMW convertable. I just prefer the BMW.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> Wives and TiVo do go together better than most other options.


The wife wouldn't know any difference as long as it's working. A Tivo in a reboot loop will attract just as much ire as a PC that's crashed. The wife used to get pissed when a Tivo message would pop up on the screen and prevent her from watching her favorite channels. Showing her how to get rid of the message and get to live TV was pointless because she'd forget what I told her the next time it would occur.



jrm01 said:


> The OP is right that there are many less expensive options for DVR function than TiVo.
> 
> Just like when I want to go over and visit my daughter. I can ride my less expensive bicycle or my BMW convertable. I just prefer the BMW.


If that's what you think the discussion is about then you missed the point. While there are less expensive options, some options are also considered better than a Tivo. Of course, that's only the opinion of those enjoying the extra benefits of an HTPC vs. a Tivo.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> The wife wouldn't know any difference as long as it's working. A Tivo in a reboot loop will attract just as much ire as a PC that's crashed. The wife used to get pissed when a Tivo message would pop up on the screen and prevent her from watching her favorite channels. Showing her how to get rid of the message and get to live TV was pointless because she'd forget what I told her the next time it would occur.
> 
> If that's what you think the discussion is about then you missed the point. While there are less expensive options, some options are also considered better than a Tivo. Of course, that's only the opinion of those enjoying the extra benefits of an HTPC vs. a Tivo.


The argument is not winnable by anybody, some things are better for over 90% of the folks, take a car vs a horse, in 1915 the horse was most likely in the 90% part, now it most likely in the 10% part, laptops taking over for the desktop PC is another example, Computer TV taking over for the stand alone DVR may never happen at the 90% level, people vote with their $ on what they think is best for them. People are not correct all the time, but over time the better product will win out.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> People are not correct all the time, but over time the better product will win out.


I'd argue that the more popular or commercially successful product will win out, not necessarily the best one. People want convenience over quality these days. Beta was a clearly superior VCR yet VHS took over the market (people could record up to six hours on a single VHS cassette vs. 4.5 hours for Beta, even though Beta provided a better picture). Blu-Ray is vastly superior to streaming but it seems that most people would rather stream lower quality audio and video over the internet than deal with physical discs. I still don't understand why anyone would want to watch video on any kind of portable device that requires a magnifying glass to see the image.

FYI - ReplayTV and UltimateTV DVRs were better than Tivos in their day. ReplayTV stretched the envelope too soon and paid dearly for their innovative thinking. UltimateTV was another Microsoft product that was abandoned (Microsoft has about as much faith in new products as network TV executives have in new shows. If they don't get the ratings they expect right out of the gate they get axed.)


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'd argue that the more popular or commercially successful product will win out, not necessarily the best one. People want convenience over quality these days. Beta was a clearly superior VCR yet VHS took over the market (people could record up to six hours on a single VHS cassette vs. 4.5 hours for Beta, even though Beta provided a better picture). Blu-Ray is vastly superior to streaming but it seems that most people would rather stream lower quality audio and video over the internet than deal with physical discs. I still don't understand why anyone would want to watch video on any kind of portable device that requires a magnifying glass to see the image.
> 
> FYI - ReplayTV and UltimateTV DVRs were better than Tivos in their day. ReplayTV stretched the envelope too soon and paid dearly for their innovative thinking. UltimateTV was another Microsoft product that was abandoned (Microsoft has about as much faith in new products as network TV executives have in new shows. If they don't get the ratings they expect right out of the gate they get axed.)


I agree I could have used a more meaningful word than the word *better* as being the product that makes it, I was not referring to quality by using that word better, I was referring to exactly what you said as what makes a "commercially successful product" Quality is preserved differently by different people, BET did give one a better picture but it was more important to me to get the longer record time so I purchased the VHS system, for me it was better, but not as high picture quality, a trade off I made and so did most other people, so VHS won.
I guess one could make a stainless steel mousetrap with Wi-Fi network connection, so you could look at your computer to see what traps got a mouse, which one is better, a $0.25 wood trap or a stainless steel network connected trap for $40 ??


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> I guess one could make a stainless steel mousetrap with Wi-Fi network connection, so you could look at your computer to see what traps got a mouse, which one is better, a $0.25 wood trap or a stainless steel network connected trap for $40 ??


I'm not sure how the discussion digressed to mouse traps and bicycles vs. BMWs. The point is that both a Tivo and a WMC PC can record TV shows with the same picture quality and same basic features. It all boils down to what features you want. A better analogy would be a PC vs. a Mac. PCs can be configured any way you want. Macs (the Tivo in this comparison) is considered a better computer by some, but only comes in a fixed configuration set by the manufacturer. They work great for what they're designed to do but tend to be limited when it comes to adding extra hardware or features. Macs only recently got the ability to play Blu-Rays but are still considered a poor choice as a Home Theater PC.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Tivos are great DVRs, but they're limited in what they can do. They're not PCs, but just one part of an overall entertainment system. WMC PCs can do just about everything a Tivo can do and far more. Tivos just do some things better (i.e., searches and wishlists), but PCs can still do them adequately for most people as well as provide features that a Tivo can't (more than four digital cable tuners plus OTA reception with unlimited storage, automatic commercial detection and skipping, and the ability to stream multiple audio and video formats to any room in the house is a significant game changer IMHO). Of course, the extra features a PC can provide may not be of interest to some so a Tivo is just right for them. It's whatever floats your boat.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

mr.unnatural said:


> FYI - ReplayTV and UltimateTV DVRs were better than Tivos in their day.


Your opinion, which not many people seem to agree with.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

nrc said:


> Your opinion, which not many people seem to agree with.


It's clear that you don't, which is perfectly fine by me. I must have missed the poll you started to get everyone else's opinion on the subject. Can you please provide me with the link to it?

Both DVRs had vastly superior UI's, IMHO. I seem to recall that the biggest complaint most early Tivo users had was that the UI was clunky. It took Tivo almost a decade before they listened to their customers and decided to upgrade it. ReplayTV pioneered file sharing between DVRs (fact). The original SA Tivos took up to 3 hours or more to run setup (fact). I could configure my ReplayTV for use in less than 20 minutes (fact). Please note that any comments about these DVRs is based on several years of hands-on use and side-by-side comparisons with Tivos available during the same time period. Obviously anything I post with regards to them is strictly my opinion unless otherwise stated.

Personally, I just preferred the way each DVR worked in comparison to my Tivos. ReplayTV eventually deteriorated into a subscription-based service, like Tivo, which is no doubt one of the reasons for its demise (the original models included lifetime service in the purchase price). UltimateTV was eventually abandoned by Microsoft after only being on the market for about a year and a half, DirecTV charged double the DVR fee for using it, and they had a terrible track record for reliability. It was doomed to failure from the start.

I understand that not many people here would agree with my stated opinion because they're mostly Tivo fans. Had I posted a similar statement in either an UltimateTV or ReplayTV forum about Tivos I'd expect a similar response.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> It's clear that you don't, which is perfectly fine by me. I must have missed the poll you started to get everyone else's opinion on the subject. Can you please provide me with the link to it?
> 
> Both DVRs had vastly superior UI's, IMHO. I seem to recall that the biggest complaint most early Tivo users had was that the UI was clunky. It took Tivo almost a decade before they listened to their customers and decided to upgrade it. ReplayTV pioneered file sharing between DVRs (fact). The original SA Tivos took up to 3 hours or more to run setup (fact). I could configure my ReplayTV for use in less than 20 minutes (fact). Please note that any comments about these DVRs is based on several years of hands-on use and side-by-side comparisons with Tivos available during the same time period. Obviously anything I post with regards to them is strictly my opinion unless otherwise stated.
> 
> ...


I think what you are missing in your argument is that a commercially successful product has lots of moving parts such a cost, reliably, usable, etc. TiVo as a branded DVR made it more than other branded DVRs and PC DVRs but the competition from cable co DVRs makes it almost impossible for TiVo to be another Apple. Hassle factor plays a big part in people decisions on what if any DVR they want, and the Cable co DVR has the least hassle, as the cable co installs and gives you a lifetime in your house warranty on the DVR, one does pay a price for that convenience, not so great UI, no hard drive upgrades and the lack of some other TiVo features that some people may want, and the cost may be greater. If TiVo gets more MSOs to use the TiVo unit, that would be good for TiVo as a co.


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## GreenMonkey (May 28, 2008)

We barely use our Tivo for anything except recording network shows (lifetime TivoHD on antenna) but there's no way I'm trying to get the babysitter or stepmom to try to use a Windows Media Center box for TV.

And I'm running a HTPC - I'm running XBMC downstairs on a homebuilt Windows 7 PC - I love it, but that's for its ability to play whatever video I throw at it, run Hyperspin and old game emulators, etc.

Throw in the occasional Windows weirdness (occasionally Windows + HDMI sync doesn't play nice with my receiver, requiring a power cycle of the TV/receiver) and it's just not a DVR replacement for the average person.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

jrm01 said:


> The OP is right that there are many less expensive options for DVR function than TiVo.
> 
> Just like when I want to go over and visit my daughter. I can ride my less expensive bicycle or my BMW convertable. I just prefer the BMW.


I think BMWs are a big waste of money.. but you're missing the point.. Tivos can be CHEAPER than the cable DVRs over time (amortizing lifetime), but most people don't realize that.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

GreenMonkey said:


> We barely use our Tivo for anything except recording network shows (lifetime TivoHD on antenna) but there's no way I'm trying to get the babysitter or stepmom to try to use a Windows Media Center box for TV.


Nor would I expect anyone would. It's definitely a niche product aimed at those that are more tech savvy. As I stated previously, most consumers are all about convenience. HTPCs are more for hobbyists that like to tinker and create something that does things over and above the humdrum consumer products.



> And I'm running a HTPC - I'm running XBMC downstairs on a homebuilt Windows 7 PC - I love it, but that's for its ability to play whatever video I throw at it, run Hyperspin and old game emulators, etc.


Exactly. It's got the unique ability to run just about anything you want on it. XBMC is the best interface I've found for playing all of my video formats.



> Throw in the occasional Windows weirdness (occasionally Windows + HDMI sync doesn't play nice with my receiver, requiring a power cycle of the TV/receiver) and it's just not a DVR replacement for the average person.


I get that too on occasion, but I think it's mostly an EDID issue or HDCP related. You can blame that on the folks that developed the HDCP standard which does absolutely nothing to benefit the consumer.



mattack said:


> I think BMWs are a big waste of money.. but you're missing the point.. Tivos can be CHEAPER than the cable DVRs over time (amortizing lifetime), but most people don't realize that.


Then you're missing the point of a BMW or any other performance car. It's all about being one with the machine. BMWs are for drivers. Other cars fall into the commuter category. You can either commute or you can drive. Personally, I like to drive. Give me a car with decent handling and horsepower with a stick and I'm a happy camper. Automatics are for wussies.

The comparison someone made of a Tivo to a BMW was way off the mark and completely ludicrous. I see it more as a Toyota Camry with a state of the art navigation system. Highly dependable and it can get you where you want to go with ease. An HTPC is more like an SUV. You can still get all the bells and whistles but it has far more utility and a decent amount of performance.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Both DVRs had vastly superior UI's, IMHO. I seem to recall that the biggest complaint most early Tivo users had was that the UI was clunky. It took Tivo almost a decade before they listened to their customers and decided to upgrade it. ReplayTV pioneered file sharing between DVRs (fact). The original SA Tivos took up to 3 hours or more to run setup (fact). I could configure my ReplayTV for use in less than 20 minutes (fact). Please note that any comments about these DVRs is based on several years of hands-on use and side-by-side comparisons with Tivos available during the same time period. Obviously anything I post with regards to them is strictly my opinion unless otherwise stated.


I'm seriously asking.. Besides the setup time (heck, they still take a long time to setup, including the guided setup part of course), can you explain what was "clunky"?

I've said this in other threads, but heck, I think the S1 experience (which, yes, I realize advanced from what it was at the very beginning) is still LESS clunky than S3 Tivos (my experience is mostly with S3 & TivoHD, though I now 'drive' a friend's XS4 sometimes). In other words, the S1 has more "polish" and just finished UI, whereas *for speed reasons* (which I agree with actually, if the underlying implementation can't be fixed), you get hokey things like the list filling in live, rather than just BAM the UI is either not there or there, which it is like on S1.. (which yes, means you have to wait ~20 seconds for now playing to fill up).



mr.unnatural said:


> Then you're missing the point of a BMW or any other performance car. It's all about being one with the machine. BMWs are for drivers. Other cars fall into the commuter category. You can either commute or you can drive. Personally, I like to drive. Give me a car with decent handling and horsepower with a stick and I'm a happy camper. Automatics are for wussies.


I'll blow your mind then. I have an automatic Miata.. (Yes, I probably would use the "shift paddles" like more recent automatics have, for manual-ish shifting.)


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mattack said:


> I'm seriously asking.. Besides the setup time (heck, they still take a long time to setup, including the guided setup part of course), can you explain what was "clunky"?


The early versions of the UI were godawful slow and not as intuitive as later versions.



> I've said this in other threads, but heck, I think the S1 experience (which, yes, I realize advanced from what it was at the very beginning) is still LESS clunky than S3 Tivos (my experience is mostly with S3 & TivoHD, though I now 'drive' a friend's XS4 sometimes). In other words, the S1 has more "polish" and just finished UI, whereas *for speed reasons* (which I agree with actually, if the underlying implementation can't be fixed), you get hokey things like the list filling in live, rather than just BAM the UI is either not there or there, which it is like on S1.. (which yes, means you have to wait ~20 seconds for now playing to fill up).


I've owned and operated most versions of the Tivo since it was introduced over a dozen years ago except the DVD models and the HD models later than the S3. This includes both SA and DirecTV models. It wasn't until the OS was updated in the S2 models that the UI became faster and more responsive. The only way to speed it up in the S1 models was to use a cachecard.

The main thing that attracted me to Tivo in the first place was the ability to hack them for more than just increased storage space. You could add larger drives to both the ReplayTV and the UltimateTV DVRs, but that was about all you could do. Tivo has made it increasingly difficult to hack later models to add software features and is now making it difficult to even add larger hard drives. They've taken away my only reason to stick with them. I finally decommissioned my remaining S3 and returned the cablecards to Verizon yesterday.



> I'll blow your mind then. I have an automatic Miata.. (Yes, I probably would use the "shift paddles" like more recent automatics have, for manual-ish shifting.)


No offense, but that's a total chick car. Every Miata owner I've ever met is a girl. I don't mean this as an insult, just an observation. Shift paddles just don't give you the same experience as a manual transmission.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

The Tivo is easier and cheaper to troubleshoot if something goes wrong. You can just buy a cheap second Tivo without service and swap hard drive and/or power supply to get the malfunctioning Tivo working.


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## tneison (Jul 15, 2012)

As someone who just switched from an HTPC w/ 3 Xbox extenders to Tivo let me submit my two cents. HTPC is a good to great option, if you are lucky enough to have stability. In my case the variables that go into a successful HTPC set up kept causing too many interruptions. The one constant was Ceton provided great customer support. But just about every week I'd have some type of issue such as the dreaded 'subscription required' message, or the 'tuner not available', the update play ready message, etc. all from different causes that eventually I'd be able to fix. But when you work on IT crap all day when you come home in my case at least the last thing I wanted to deal with when watching the news is running a diagnostic tool and submitting a log file to tech support, having to re-run media center setup, etc.

The main advantage to Tivo is the simplicity. You put the box where you want it, boot it up, and after the typical cableCARD activation dread it is just stable, at least for me. My Comcast signals which are on the weaker side and caused constant issues w/ the HTPC aren't a problem on the Tivo (and I didn't change anything in terms of my cabling or splitters). The channel changes are much faster on a Tivo, and overall I like the interface more than WMC. What I think is the best advantage of Tivo is the iPad app.

The main thing I miss from WMC is the commercial skip programs I used, I hate having to grab for the remote now to fast forward. 

Like others have said there are pros and cons to each, but in my case what I gave up in the cost savings of an HTPC I gain in stability.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

tneison said:


> The main thing I miss from WMC is the commercial skip programs I used, I hate having to grab for the remote now to fast forward.


Maybe you were using FF generically, and it obviously ISN'T commercial skip, but type:

select play select 3 0 select

Now, the -> button is a 30 second skip button. So just wham on it a whole bunch of times, then possibly a couple 8 sec back skips.. and you've missed most of the commercials. (If you watch a lot of the same shows regularly, I think you will learn how long various commercial breaks are to vary # of 30 second skips.)


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## tneison (Jul 15, 2012)

mattack said:


> Maybe you were using FF generically, and it obviously ISN'T commercial skip, but type:
> 
> select play select 3 0 select
> 
> Now, the -> button is a 30 second skip button. So just wham on it a whole bunch of times, then possibly a couple 8 sec back skips.. and you've missed most of the commercials. (If you watch a lot of the same shows regularly, I think you will learn how long various commercial breaks are to vary # of 30 second skips.)


Yeah - I meant I was using software to automatically strip out the commercials. So as it is recorded in WMC - once you set up a few different programs to run all of which were free - by the time you play the recorded content it literally skips ahead at each commercial automatically. No need to grab the remote at all. It worked 90% of the time. Just one of those things you get used to real quick. But I feel like a lazy p.o.s. complaining about having to 'reach' for a remote and press a button a few so I'll stop


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## stcaudle12 (Jul 25, 2012)

Good God! How many hours does it take to keep all this running when I can just plug in a Tivo? I build my own PC's and would never mess with this unless I suddenly found a time machine and had all the time in the world!


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

tneison said:


> Yeah - I meant I was using software to automatically strip out the commercials. So as it is recorded in WMC - once you set up a few different programs to run all of which were free - by the time you play the recorded content it literally skips ahead at each commercial automatically. No need to grab the remote at all. It worked 90% of the time. Just one of those things you get used to real quick. But I feel like a lazy p.o.s. complaining about having to 'reach' for a remote and press a button a few so I'll stop


90% of the time is an awfully BAD percentage.

I'd expect it to work very very close to 100% of the time. (or at least be 'optional' like the Replay commercial skip, which I never used, was)

Though, with enough work, you can get "commercial skip" with Tivo too -- download shows to a computer, run various open source tools to do commercial skipping, and then copy them back to the Tivo. If one has a machine already running all the time (server for other uses), it seems to me like it would be fun to play with (but not rely on).


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## tneison (Jul 15, 2012)

Well, I was ok with the 90% because it was all freeware, 3 different packages all developed by different people, you configure to try to strip the commercials out. It wasn't like I was paying anyone for the service. Where it struggled was at the end of a show when it comes back from a commercial break for just one minute or less (so like the Daily Show 'moment of zen' piece that is 15 seconds) it would almost always skip right over that so you would have to rewind to catch it.

Once it was set up, even though it wasn't perfect it was a pretty good luxury to have. And in the case of WMC the standard fast forward functionality sucks because it is either too slow or too fast and didn't to the automatic 8 second re-wind Tivo does so well. So the commercial skip was key with WMC.

I'd image the Dish Network functionality on the Hopper works even better (for prime time network shows only of course).


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mattack said:


> 90% of the time is an awfully BAD percentage.
> 
> I'd expect it to work very very close to 100% of the time. (or at least be 'optional' like the Replay commercial skip, which I never used, was)
> 
> Though, with enough work, you can get "commercial skip" with Tivo too -- download shows to a computer, run various open source tools to do commercial skipping, and then copy them back to the Tivo. If one has a machine already running all the time (server for other uses), it seems to me like it would be fun to play with (but not rely on).


No commercial skip app works 100% of the time, which is why I configure mine to work manually. All I need to do is press the right arrow and it skips past the commercial to the beginning of the next program segment. If the commercial break isn't detected properly I just press the left arrow to get back to where I was and then FF to the next segment.

Commercial breaks are usually detected by the presence of blank frames between the commercial and the program segment. If there's no blank frame the app can't detect the break. You can easily see this using a frame-accurate editing program like VideoReDo. It's amazing how many programs are aired with no blank frames between the commercials and program material.

I may have to FF past a commercial only once or twice over a span of several recordings, so it's not that big of a deal. With the 30-second skip feature, if I don't have the remote in hand waiting to press the button at the exact moment the commercial begins I invariably end up skipping past the end of the commercial break and have to backtrack to the start of the program segment. With the commercial skip feature I can take my time picking up the remote because it skips to a specific bookmark and not a time interval.

The bottom line is that neither solution is perfect and both have their pros and cons. I prefer the commercial skip app because it's generally quite accurate and usually works with a single button press.


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