# Ceton CableCard device competition for Tivo?



## A J Ricaud (Jun 25, 2002)

"The Ceton InfiniTV 4 is the world's first multi-tuner PC card for watching digital cable TV on the PC, including support for premium cable channels."

It's A PCIe card w/4 tuners and a slot for an M-Card, and requires Windows 7. Sounds interesting, but pretty pricey at $400, though.

http://cetoncorp.com/products.php


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Lots of threads on this already if you search. My 2 cents:
While it is a pretty compelling 4 tuner solution the biggest issues I have with it are:
1. There aren't really decent/affordable extenders to go with MCE. xbox360 units are not exactly light weight, quiet or inexpensive. I would need at least 3 viewing locations in the house so would need at least 2 extenders.
2. Advanced wishlist capability is missing. Actually this is something nobody else other than TiVo has right now.
3. Can be pretty affordable 4-tuner setup if you already happen to have a decent PC with Win 7, but if you need to put together or purchase a Win 7 MCE setup along with the $400 for the Ceton plus more for extenders then costs can quickly add up.
4. At end of the day HTPC needs regular hardware and software maintenance, so it's not set it up and forget it and not exactly whole family friendly to use.


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## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

moyekj said:


> Lots of threads on this already if you search. My 2 cents:
> While it is a pretty compelling 4 tuner solution the biggest issues I have with it are:
> 1. There aren't really decent/affordable extenders to go with MCE. xbox360 units are not exactly light weight, quiet or inexpensive. I would need at least 3 viewing locations in the house so would need at least 2 extenders.
> 2. Advanced wishlist capability is missing. Actually this is something nobody else other than TiVo has right now.
> ...


Xbox 360's are regularly available for $160-170... that's cheaper than Moxi's extenders.
They aren't super quiet, but they also aren't terribly loud when the optical drive isn't spinning. Some enclosures/racks reflect the fan noise alot more than others... some of it can be damped just by careful positioning, etc.

There are things missing... like advanced wishlist functions... but not everyone uses those.
I would guess that most TiVo users never use wishlists at all.
It's really about which DVR platform does what you want and need the best for you.

There is obviously some boot time for the xbox extenders... as well as time to bring up the media center connection.
However, once media center is active on the xbox, it blows away any tivo (even S4 in SD mode) in responsiveness.
The MC UI in general looks better and feels better than TiVo's HDUI. (IMO)
No ads! And all of the little show info tidbits actually load fast.
It doesn't have the extensive integration that TiVo's HDUI is trying to accomplish, but it's also not something I really care about too much. (Not yet at least.)

If you have a Win7 PC, all you need are tuners. Presto! MC server.
I'm using a dual ATSC network tuner and an old PCI ATSC single tuner right now. I'll probably try one of the cable card tuners eventually, but I'll probably wait for the AVSforum people to report on them before I dive in.
(I'd actually like to wait for the network cable card tuner due out last quarter this year.)
I already have 4 xbox 360s and a couple Win7 desktops in my house, so the cost barrier to play with MC was pretty low for me.

Why does an HTPC need regular hardware and software maintenance????
I check up on my NAS box maybe once a year... It generally takes care of itself.
My PCs and my Macbook pretty much take care of themselves on the software side... I only make them ask me to approve of the updates because I like knowing what they are updating.
Hardware maintenance??? Normally only when I want to fiddle with something or upgrade a card or RAM or a disk.
I really don't see much in the way of software or hardware maintenance unless I am fiddling with stuff.

TiVo has clear advantages as a dedicated settop box, but MC and extenders are very viable too for many people.
I don't think I'd miss much if I had to replace TiVo with MC, but I'm still evaluating it (and waiting on cablecard tuners).


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## Ed_Hunt (Jan 2, 2004)

I started using Tivo with the first box, a 14 hour Philips. I have used my Computer for the last 2 years while still having 2 series2 Tivos working, one in my sons room and one in my parents house 3000 miles away. While I didn't buy the computer just for the home theater I would still find it an expense to calculate the cost to setup a home theater. I have gone back to Tivo in just the past month (2 series3 from ebay $100+ each) and I have to say I really missed them. The computer works as well for most things and the xbox makes a good dvd player as well as an extender and you can play many more file types and of course games, but the Tivo just outshines them for family friendly usability and just plain looks. The downside is of course the monthly, yearly or lifetime fees. The upside, much cheaper to start. I just plain like my Tivos, thats the bottom line for me. By the way, I have the Tivos as well as the computer hooked to a 60" LG Plasma and a 62 " Toshiba and the picture quality is the same on both using almost exclusively over the air and downloading, very little cable so no card issues. In the end its all what you like, I think they both work equally as well the expense of the home theater not withstanding.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

Does this solution give you 4 tuners on *1* m-card?

That is kind of what the picture shows


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

yes


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

The cost of doing the Cetoncorp four turner card and the price of a computer that can handle everything seems a lot more expensive then buying two TivoHD's. I realise that there would be an additional monthly expense for the service unless you did the lifetime. The article in June's issue of PC mag didnt go into if there is a channel guide that comes with the Cetoncorp card. Also does the Cetoncorp come with software similar to what Tivo gives you as far as aseason pass? I've never had a reason to use the computer for this type of thing so never checked into what is available.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

SNJpage1 said:


> The cost of doing the Cetoncorp four turner card and the price of a computer that can handle everything seems a lot more expensive then buying two TivoHD's. I realise that there would be an additional monthly expense for the service unless you did the lifetime. The article in June's issue of PC mag didnt go into if there is a channel guide that comes with the Cetoncorp card. Also does the Cetoncorp come with software similar to what Tivo gives you as far as aseason pass? I've never had a reason to use the computer for this type of thing so never checked into what is available.


 Only works with Windows 7 Media Center Edition (MCE) which has it's own free guide listings. In fact that is the main attraction of MCE solution - no monthly service fees. Many versions of Windows 7 come standard with MCE so if you upgrade or have upgraded recently to a Windows 7 PC then you are already set in terms of software needs. As far as basic capabilities for season passes, etc. most of that is there except no advanced wishlist support.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

moyekj said:


> Only works with Windows 7 Media Center Edition (MCE) which has it's own free guide listings. In fact that is the main attraction of MCE solution - no monthly service fees. Many versions of Windows 7 come standard with MCE so if you upgrade or have upgraded recently to a Windows 7 PC then you are already set in terms of software needs. As far as basic capabilities for season passes, etc. most of that is there except no advanced wishlist support.


I think you mean basic wishlist support. Also, what about Suggestions? Unless I am much mistaken, those are both TiVo patents, so it would be rather difficult for anyone else to offer the features without a license from TiVo. In addition, what about the following:

SDV (TA Based?)
MRV
Burning / streaming recorded video (including CCI 0x2)
Playing DVD / Blueray rips
Local weather

I would think RSS feeds and Amazon / Netflix / etc. steaming would be included. Are they?


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## A J Ricaud (Jun 25, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> SDV (TA Based?)
> MRV


SDV by TA= YES
MRV by Media Extender=YES


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

turbobozz said:


> There are things missing... like advanced wishlist functions... but not everyone uses those.
> I would guess that most TiVo users never use wishlists at all.


Then they aren't using their TiVo. Wishlists can eliminate well over 50% of the time spent fiddling with searching for content to record, and are the only way to specify items not in the guide data. There are literally hundreds of programs waiting to be recorded on one or the other of my TiVos whenever they wind up being broadcast. They are also the only way to record offeings by a particular actor or director.



turbobozz said:


> It's really about which DVR platform does what you want and need the best for you.


Of course.



turbobozz said:


> The MC UI in general looks better and feels better than TiVo's HDUI. (IMO)


'Largely irrelevant. If one has to interface with the DVR, then it isn't doing its job. Ideally, selecting recodings already on the DVR (or network) and pressing <Play>, <FF>, <RW>, <Pause>, and <Delete> should be the extent of one's interaction with the DVR. The TiVo fails to meet this ideal, of course, but not dreadfully. I do have to, or rather, prefer to, pull up the list of movies (HD only, if you please) coming down the pipe once every two weeks to see which ones were missed by Wishlists and Suggestions, but other than that, the TV remains off unless I am watching something that has been previously recorded, or occasionally looking up the weather. I do use the TiVos for playing music, but the TV is shut off for that.



turbobozz said:


> Why does an HTPC need regular hardware and software maintenance????


'Same reason the TiVo does. Things change over time. Also, the fact the HTPC is Windows based pretty much guarantees it will not be stable.



turbobozz said:


> I check up on my NAS box maybe once a year... It generally takes care of itself.


NAS is a very limited application, but even simple file servers like my Video and Backup servers require consistent atention.



turbobozz said:


> My PCs and my Macbook pretty much take care of themselves on the software side... I only make them ask me to approve of the updates because I like knowing what they are updating.


So you don't see the need for maintaining software on your PCs but you do maintain it?



turbobozz said:


> Hardware maintenance??? Normally only when I want to fiddle with something or upgrade a card or RAM or a disk.


So you don't see the need for maintaining the hardware on your PCs, but you do maintain it?



turbobozz said:


> I really don't see much in the way of software or hardware maintenance unless I am fiddling with stuff.


So the only time you would maintain your HTPC is when you maintain it?



turbobozz said:


> TiVo has clear advantages as a dedicated settop box


And the fact it is Linux based.



turbobozz said:


> but MC and extenders are very viable too for many people. I don't think I'd miss much if I had to replace TiVo with MC, but I'm still evaluating it (and waiting on cablecard tuners).


We'll see if someone comes up with some Linux based software for the Ceton cards. If not, then no, thanks.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

philhu said:


> Does this solution give you 4 tuners on *1* m-card?
> 
> That is kind of what the picture shows


Probably. Servicing 4 high bandwidth HD video streams inbound from the tuner, plus one or two inbound from network sources, plus one or two outbound on the network, plus one outbound to the TV requires some pretty serious horsepower, though. I doubt most people's I/O subsystems could handle it reliably. One probably needs a RAID array and a really big chunk of system memory.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

A J Ricaud said:


> SDV by TA= YES


OK


A J Ricaud said:


> MRV by Media Extender=YES


Well, I was rather speaking of the other direction. Can one record on the ME (or at least initiate recording on the ME) and play back on any other unit?


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## A J Ricaud (Jun 25, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> Well, I was rather speaking of the other direction. Can one record on the ME (or at least initiate recording on the ME) and play back on any other unit?


I'm not that familiar with Windows Media Center's capabilities and Centon's support site doesn't mention that capability. They do reference XBox 360s as Extenders. I suppose if Xbox can record I guess there's a way for Media Ctr. to pick it up and make it available to other Extenders, but I'm not knowledgeable about these things.
http://cetoncorp.com/support_faq.php#faq_112


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

I'm pretty sure that SageTV had its own version of suggestions, so I don't think that Suggestions is a Tivo-only feature. I'm not sure if 7MC supports it though.

As for MRV, if you have an extender you can use it to stream copy protected content as well as remotely scheduling recordings. You can also share non-protected content with other computer systems.

7MC supports local weather and a whole bunch of other similar gadgets.

Regarding media playback, it's a much better experience, with much fuller file format support and support for rich playback interfaces with cover art, automatic metadata gathering, etc.

The maintenance and support issue is a big one, though. At least two or three years ago, when I gave up on using my HTPC as a DVR, the reliability and stability wasn't what I needed for TV watching.



lrhorer said:


> I think you mean basic wishlist support. Also, what about Suggestions? Unless I am much mistaken, those are both TiVo patents, so it would be rather difficult for anyone else to offer the features without a license from TiVo. In addition, what about the following:
> 
> SDV (TA Based?)
> MRV
> ...


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> OK
> 
> Well, I was rather speaking of the other direction. Can one record on the ME (or at least initiate recording on the ME) and play back on any other unit?


Yeah. The Media Center extenders basically have access to all the DVR functions accessible on the host. Unfortunately the extender options are not very good. The dedicated extender products are kind of slow and clunky (and discontinued). The Xbox 360 is pretty fast and stable, but also noisy and unattractive.


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## faithhevans (May 18, 2010)

If it would have been available several years ago I would have been all over it. But I have nine TiVos each with 1TB drives in them, plus I can transfer anything I record from FIOS to my PC with TiVo Desktop that has access to 25TB of networked storage.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

SNJpage1 said:


> The cost of doing the Cetoncorp four turner card and the price of a computer that can handle everything seems a lot more expensive then buying two TivoHD's. I realise that there would be an additional monthly expense for the service unless you did the lifetime. The article in June's issue of PC mag didnt go into if there is a channel guide that comes with the Cetoncorp card. Also does the Cetoncorp come with software similar to what Tivo gives you as far as aseason pass? I've never had a reason to use the computer for this type of thing so never checked into what is available.


No - it is fairly easy now to build/buy an HTPC for around $400. That plus the tuner card plus an Xbox360 extender would be around $1000, which is at least $200 cheaper than two Tivos w/lifetime.

The HTPC runs Windows 7 Media Center, which has season pass-like functionality. No advanced wishlists though.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

Tivo needs a 3 tuner device to come out in 2011 to stay competitive. Most users won't build their own, but Moxi, uverse, and other cable companies will be adding tuners to their DVRs, and if Tivo doesn't follow suit they will continue to crumble.


edit: If the Premier had 3 tuners, I would have already placed my order as even without the HD menus, the value of a 3rd tuner is huge to me.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> No - it is fairly easy now to build/buy an HTPC for around $400. That plus the tuner card plus an Xbox360 extender would be around $1000, which is at least $200 cheaper than two Tivos w/lifetime.
> 
> The HTPC runs Windows 7 Media Center, which has season pass-like functionality. No advanced wish lists though.


the power difference between two premieres and an HTPC plus Xbox360 is huge.

Plus you have the TiVo software with the Premiere. Two Premieres easily win for me. Now if it was the early 2000's I would jump on the Ceton cards. That's a much better solution than when I had a couple of HiPix cards for recording HD. They were basically digital VCRs.

Although my brother right now is planning to get the 4 tuner ceton card to use with Comcast. So I should be able to get some hands on time with it sometime this summer.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> No - it is fairly easy now to build/buy an HTPC for around $400. That plus the tuner card plus an Xbox360 extender would be around $1000, which is at least $200 cheaper than two Tivos w/lifetime.


I am always amazed at folks that tout an HTPC for 400$. You can do that if you want to settle, but why? To me you go HTPC so you can decide the performance factor and have Blu Ray built in along with multiple terrabytes of storage and so forth. PC games on the TV would be another reason so a great graphics card would be on my list as well. So spend some extra over the cost of two TiVo DVRs, if you are going HTPC then embrace it. Clearly an HTPC is capable of so much more than any DVR appliance and who is going to stop at 400$ for the PC itself.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Of course you can build whatever you want, but this was an apples to apples comparison. An Intel i5 or AMD quad-core HTPC is going to blow away a Tivo Premiere performance-wise, and with a 1TB drive will have more space as well. Fry's sells mobo/CPU combos like this for around $100 all the time. An Xbox360 as extender is just like sitting in front of Media Center on the PC.

The question was whether two Tivos w/lifetime are cheaper than a 4-tuner Cablecard HTPC, and the answer is no.


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## cogx (Sep 23, 2006)

mr_smits said:


> edit: If the Premier had 3 tuners, I would have already placed my order as even without the HD menus, the value of a 3rd tuner is huge to me.


I agree, as I see no reason to replace my old S3, unless/until TiVo comes out with a model that gives me a third tuner.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Of course you can build whatever you want, but this was an apples to apples comparison. An Intel i5 or AMD quad-core HTPC is going to blow away a Tivo Premiere performance-wise, and with a 1TB drive will have more space as well. Fry's sells mobo/CPU combos like this for around $100 all the time. An Xbox360 as extender is just like sitting in front of Media Center on the PC.
> 
> The question was whether two Tivos w/lifetime are cheaper than a 4-tuner Cablecard HTPC, and the answer is no.


After my fatwallet discount, two premieres, with Lifetime and a 3 year warranty is under $1k. Then you take any Pc you already have and you can use tivo Desktop with it for unlimited storage of your shows. Assuming your provider doesn't restrict your transfers.

Also whether you have a quad core or dual core PC, it shouldn't make any difference for recording from four channels. even back in the earlier 2000's my slow pentiums ahd no issue streaming several HD shows concurrently to multiple devices. It certainly shouldn't be an issue with what's available now. Whether dual or quad core, it shouldn't make any difference.
Now for transcoding the videos to another format, the quad core will be quicker.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> After my fatwallet discount, two premieres, with Lifetime and a 3 year warranty is under $1k.


Those were upgrade specials, new customers can't get that deal.

Look aaron, I realize this doesn't apply to you since you have a bajillion Tivos, but for the average user that is moderately PC savvy, the 4-tuner HTPC setup will be cheaper than multiple Tivos. And it's even cheaper with more than one extender, you don't have to rent multiple Cablecards (extra outlets), etc.

I'm not talking about functionality, or ease of use, power, maintenance, etc. I'm talking about the upfront cost with apples-to-apples specs and service.
There are many factors to consider beside the upfront cost, I know.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Those were upgrade specials, new customers can't get that deal.
> 
> Look aaron, I realize this doesn't apply to you since you have a bajillion Tivos, but for the average user that is moderately PC savvy, the 4-tuner HTPC setup will be cheaper than multiple Tivos. And it's even cheaper with more than one extender, you don't have to rent multiple Cablecards (extra outlets), etc.
> 
> ...


Yes if it was strictly about cost I would be setting up several PCs each with a Ceton card. Setup would be extremely ieasy with a PC. And years ago I would have chose a PC over a dedictaed STB. But there is no denying that things can be much simpler with a dedicated STB. And aslo the software running on makes a difference. And Having the TiVo software is also important to me since it's better than other options out there.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> Yes if it was strictly about cost I would be setting up several PCs each with a Ceton card. Setup would be extremely ieasy with a PC. And years ago I would have chose a PC over a dedictaed STB. But there is no denying that things can be much simpler with a dedicated STB. And aslo the software running on makes a difference. And Having the TiVo software is also important to me since it's better than other options out there.


Word.

It has been a few years for me, but I still had to do reboots/reconfigurations and whatnot at least once a week. It wasn't really an acceptably stable setup especially for my wife.

There are a lot of appealing things about a PC setup - better interface, faster, better media playback, superior configurability, more tuners, but at least as of a few years ago the stability just wasn't there.

If there was a good extender product available for 7MC, I might consider it, but for now the pluses don't really outweigh the minuses.


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## hoyty (Jan 22, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> the power difference between two premieres and an HTPC plus Xbox360 is huge.


The difference is the 360 only needs to be on when in use and the MC PC can go to almost zero power sleep and only wake when needed to stream content or record. It would be interesting to see a monthly power comparison.


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## hoyty (Jan 22, 2003)

fyodor said:


> The maintenance and support issue is a big one, though. At least two or three years ago, when I gave up on using my HTPC as a DVR, the reliability and stability wasn't what I needed for TV watching.


I have had a Windows 7 MC running with 3 OTA tuners and waiting for Ceton card to add 4 FIOS tuners since August of last year when RTM code came out. That machine has had zero maintenance by me. It downloads windows updates and reboots on its own. Goes to sleep and wakes up when needed on its own. It is just as reliable as my Series 3 TiVo for me and needs as much (little) maintenance.


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## hoyty (Jan 22, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> Probably. Servicing 4 high bandwidth HD video streams inbound from the tuner, plus one or two inbound from network sources, plus one or two outbound on the network, plus one outbound to the TV requires some pretty serious horsepower, though. I doubt most people's I/O subsystems could handle it reliably. One probably needs a RAID array and a really big chunk of system memory.


Actually it is quite a bit less than you might think. Most modern HD (1-2 TB) can handle 80 MByte/s streaming, especially sequential read / write that TV streams would be. A max bit rate HD stream is 20 Mbit/s or 2.5 MByte/s. That means recording 4 streams + watching 2 streams would be about 15 MByte/s. Plenty of overhead left.

Right now on an older 1 TB WD drive I regularly record 2 streams, watch 1 stream and have 1-2 shows being analyzed for commercial removal and the disk is not nearly maxed out.


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## hoyty (Jan 22, 2003)

The number one reason I use Windows 7 MC is automatic commercial removal. Within 7-20 minutes of a show being recorded it is analyzed and ready to be watched with automatic commercial skip. It just works for me. I can't wait to have the ceton card so I can move all my recording duties from the Series 3 to WMC 7 for this reason.

In case anyone thinks I am just trolling and bashing TiVo in favor of WMC I am not. I have had TiVo's since Series 1 DTV boxes through HR10-250 and now Series 3. Also I already had the Xbox's and PC ready so it was reusing existing infrastructure. I had set everything up on the promises of a DirecTV WMC solution that was canceled. Now I have FIOS and love it though. The only thing new to add is NAS for more storage (not quite the 20 TB Aaron has, but maybe 6-8). I had high hopes for Series 4 but right now I am sticking with Series 3 and WMC.


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

mr_smits said:


> Tivo needs a 3 tuner device to come out in 2011 to stay competitive. Most users won't build their own, but Moxi, uverse, and other cable companies will be adding tuners to their DVRs, and if Tivo doesn't follow suit they will continue to crumble.
> 
> edit: If the Premier had 3 tuners, I would have already placed my order as even without the HD menus, the value of a 3rd tuner is huge to me.


Ditto. I'd already have a PXL 3rd tuner TiVo with one streaming extender for the bedroom. But otherwise, well, why bother?

A 3rd tuner XL with available extenders is THE correct advanced user model. No one should have to buy/rent 5 TiVo's, 5 cableCARDS, plus additional outlet fees. Moxi has the proper basic hardware model and TiVo could've done the whole thing properly, which Moxi really couldn't.

If you are someone like Comcast, you HAVE to be laughing. As easy as it would be for TiVo to blow away a cable DVR; TiVo just doesn't seem very interested in doing it. And cable keeps charging outrageous prices for crappy DVR's. But the sad thing is, even cable!!!! is catching up, and they are NOT trying very hard, I assure you.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

hoyty said:


> Actually it is quite a bit less than you might think. Most modern HD (1-2 TB) can handle 80 MByte/s streaming, especially sequential read / write that TV streams would be. A max bit rate HD stream is 20 Mbit/s or 2.5 MByte/s. That means recording 4 streams + watching 2 streams would be about 15 MByte/s. Plenty of overhead left.
> 
> Right now on an older 1 TB WD drive I regularly record 2 streams, watch 1 stream and have 1-2 shows being analyzed for commercial removal and the disk is not nearly maxed out.


My old PCs with my Hipix cards in the early 2000's had no problem streaming to multiple PCs while recording as well. And that was with ide drives. With todays drives it should certainly be no problem for many streams. The S3 and S4 model have no problems reading/writing four streams concurrently.
A PC will have no issue with several more streams, even with a 5400rpm drive.


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## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Then they aren't using their TiVo. Wishlists can eliminate well over 50% of the time spent fiddling with searching for content to record, and are the only way to specify items not in the guide data. There are literally hundreds of programs waiting to be recorded on one or the other of my TiVos whenever they wind up being broadcast. They are also the only way to record offeings by a particular actor or director.
> 
> Of course.
> 
> ...


I personally rarely find wishlists or suggestions useful. I'm not compelled to discover TV through my TV. There's too much floating around, and I don't need to discover it all. I tend to find more content than I have time to watch through other avenues of discovery.
I also really don't care if I'm not using 100% of the features of my TiVo.
Nor do most people.
I use what is convenient and what I find useful.

The UI is relevant to me, especially in light of the crappy choices the S4 has right now... a slow and incomplete HD interface and the fast old interface that many times doesn't look at home on an HD set.
And yes... the existence of ads does devalue the UI ever so slightly.

Windows not stable??? I'm sorry, but I think you missed the point I was making about maintenance.
I have been running OSX for a couple years now. (My macbook currently.)
I have been running Linux off and on for various purposes for maybe a bit under 10 years now. (My workstations use Centos and my NAS uses Ubuntu server.)
I have been running Windows non-stop since around 1992... Win 3.1, Win95, Win98, Win2000, WinXP, WinVista, Win7. (Win7 and one lone WinXP .)
ALL of the current software I use is capable of taking care of itself and running for long periods of time unattended... and they are capable of doing a pretty decent job at it.
Any system I am not tinkering with in the last few years has been stable both hardware and software aside from a RAM stick failure.

I *choose* to make the software updaters notify me and ask my permission. I could also choose to let them just update themselves without my intervention. I do not consider them asking permission maintenance.
My S3 w/ extender has required similar amounts of hardware and software maintenance to any of my stable systems... negligible.
You can mock me if you wish, but my point remains true... The only significant maintenance I have had to do on any of my systems in the past few years has been due to my desire to tinker and be involved.

Linux based is irrelevant.
I don't care what the DVR software is running on top of as long as it works and works well.
You average consumer doesn't care either.


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## stebu (Oct 15, 2002)

I am moving soon, and considering alternatives to my two directivos. For me, the ability of windows media center to work with extenders is huge. Having one machine with four tuners that can broadcast throughout the house is a HUGE improvement over having two machines, each with two tuners.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I've been a Tivo owner for over 10 years and an HTPC enthusiast for over three. I just received my Ceton tuner last Friday and I'm just waiting for Verizon to install my CableCARD next week. I have two S3 Tivos, one with lifetime and another paid monthly with MSD that I just cancelled (the 3-year commitment expires today). My plan is to cancel both Tivos so I'll be down to one CableCARD fee vs. four. I'll also be dumping three STBs and one monthly Tivo fee. Total monthly savings will be about $35 (I was grandfathered into the original FIOS CableCARD rate of $2.99 each). 

I recently picked up three Linksys DMA2200 extenders on ebay for a grand total of about $250, including shipping. Add the cost of the Ceton tuner (about $415 with shipping) and the total outlay is around $665. At $35 per month it will take me about 23 months to recoup my cost of switching to the Ceton and using extenders. I'll never recover the full cost of my S3 Tivos ($600 apiece when I bought them new), but Tivos were never known for having high resale value anyway. 

I've experimented a bit with the extenders and I'm not all that thrilled with the UI. It's basically the same as MC but it behaves a bit sluggish in comparison. Some video, most notably standard def channels, is a bit pixelated, but HD material looks surprisingly good. Others report that the X-Box 360 is a little better than the Linksys but they tend to be noisy, get very hot, and are somewhat power hungry. The new 4GB slim X-Box 360 Arcade model is quiet and runs much cooler with lower power consumption and is currently the only extender being marketed (along with the rest of the X-Box 360 models, of course). The Arcade will set you back about $199.

HTPCs are great because they offer so much more flexibility than a Tivo. I have an 18TB unRAID server that can stream DVDs and Blu-Ray movies to any PC in the house. Unfortunately, MC extenders cannot handle either format so that option is unavailable to any TV connected via extender. Then again, Tivo never had this capability so it's a wash.

Cable Labs has just relaxed the restriction on sharing tuners so you should be able to share the four tuners in the Ceton card with multiple TVs via individual HTPCs. There are lots of low cost, low power, small profile PCs available that make great little HTPCs. The Dell Zino HD with upgraded graphics and CPU makes an awesome HTPC for this purpose, as do several others.

Software maintenance is overrated. If your PC is stable there's absolutely no need to update any software except the anti-virus database (i.e., if it ain't broke, don't fix it). People gripe about graphics drivers all the time but I've never had issues with any graphics driver from nVidia or ATi. If you feel lucky you can leave Windows update turned on and it will do it for you automatically.

HTPCs do require a bit of tweaking to get them working the way you want. The latest hardware and software has advanced to the point where putting together an HTPC takes little effort to set it up properly. Toss in a TV tuner and any Win 7 PC with Media Center (available with just about every version of Win 7) can become an HTPC. Media Center remotes with IR receivers can be had on ebay for under $10.

If you've never tried using a Media Center PC, you simply don't know what you're missing. It won't be everyone's cup of tea, but I'll bet there are more converts than not.

P.S. I just canceled the Tivo service on my 2nd S3 as of yesterday, the 16th. The Tivo CSR was going through the expected tapdance to see what he could do to keep me as a Tivo customer. When he asked why I was terminating the service I informed him that I had just picked up a Ceton tuner and was using Windows 7 Media Center. He asked if I was familiar with Media Center and I indicated that I had been using it for quite a while and liked it very much. He realized that Tivo couldn't compete after I described my setup and he relented peacefully.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

If you have FiOS why didn't you just move the card from the TiVo to the Ceton yourself? I can move any of my FiOS cable cards to other cable card devices with no issues.


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## wickerbill (Apr 4, 2002)

I'm more curious why he called and canceled a Series 3 with lifetime instead of just selling it.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> but Tivos were never known for having high resale value anyway.


Tivos *with lifetime* definitely have high resale value, since the lifetime goes with the box... and the most common thing to go wrong is a bad hard drive, which can be fixed.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> HTPCs are great because they offer so much more flexibility than a Tivo. I have an 18TB unRAID server that can stream DVDs and Blu-Ray movies to any PC in the house. Unfortunately, MC extenders cannot handle either format so that option is unavailable to any TV connected via extender. Then again, Tivo never had this capability so it's a wash.


While Tivo never had this capability built in, I know someone who streams his DVDs to his Tivo.. he even made some enhancements for the software.

Maybe they're all re-encoded (as opposed to simply being 'ripped'), but I thought the reencoding was done on the fly.. I could be wrong.


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## zowwie85 (Jul 25, 2010)

If/when the Ceton card comes down in price, I might jump. I got my HD TiVo for only $75 though...  

I've done Windows 7 Media Center setup both digital OTA and trying to drive a satellite box. Never had access to feed WM7MC a cable signal (well, I suppose I do now, come to think of it, just analog...)

WM7MC on digital OTA was flawless. Never missed a beat. I would imagine similar performance with the Ceton device, I've read reviews and it's a really high end product. It *does* honor the copy protection stuff though, although WM7MC is a little better about MRV of those shows.

Suggestions differentiate the two. Supposedly the TiVo has them... mine had them before the cable card and SDV were added. Sure makes it easier to dump the TiVo if its biggest selling point doesn't work.

TiVo has a little advantage about asking about guide data to be corrected, W7MC has a forum where you can post and someone 'may' read it.

When cards similar to the Ceton come down in price I might jump back to WM7. It'll be fun to see the Cox contractor's face when he shows up with neither the card, nor the TA, nor the ability to call anyone who would re-pair the existing M-card and TA here onsite. 

Only thing that would prevent me from doing WM7 would be someone non-technical in the house.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> If you have FiOS why didn't you just move the card from the TiVo to the Ceton yourself? I can move any of my FiOS cable cards to other cable card devices with no issues.


It's an older S3 model that has S-cards. You can't use S-cards in the Ceton.



wickerbill said:


> I'm more curious why he called and canceled a Series 3 with lifetime instead of just selling it.


I haven't canceled the S3 with lifetime, at least not yet, anyway. I plan on keeping it in service for another month or two but I will eventually take it off my account. I canceled the one that was on a month-to-month basis in a 3-year commitment that just expired on the 17th of this month (i.e., yesterday). The monthly rate was being increased from $6.95 to $9.95 and I wasn't using the Tivo anyway so it made little sense to keep paying for it along with two cablecards. I fully intend to sell the lifetime unit on ebay as well as the one with no lifetime.



mattack said:


> Tivos *with lifetime* definitely have high resale value, since the lifetime goes with the box... and the most common thing to go wrong is a bad hard drive, which can be fixed.


I hate to burst your bubble but Tivos, with or without lifetime, have always had low resale value. Granted, one with a lifetime sub will definitely fetch you a higher price than one without, but you'll still never even come close to getting back what you paid for it. My S3's originally cost me about $600 apiece. Do you really think anyone will be willing to pay even half that when you can get a new Premiere for about $200-250?



mattack said:


> While Tivo never had this capability built in, I know someone who streams his DVDs to his Tivo.. he even made some enhancements for the software.
> 
> Maybe they're all re-encoded (as opposed to simply being 'ripped'), but I thought the reencoding was done on the fly.. I could be wrong.


Yeah, I'm aware that the capability to transfer DVDs and other video files to a Tivo exists, but you still can't do Blu-Rays (Tivo can't handle 1080p resolution or HD audio). I can do all of this on an HTPC with absolutely no hacking other than setting up a home network.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Make sure you turn off menu transitions in the Linksys extenders, it will speed up the UI a bit. It's in Tasks->Settings->General->Visual and Sound Effects.

I agree that they are still a little sluggish at times and the audio level is low (and non-adjustable) compared to the Tivos when switching inputs. But overall mine has been working great and is no more sluggish than the Tivo HD. I still think the new Xbox360 is a little better, but the Linksys is not bad.

One other nice thing about a 7MC setup is that it's easy to do auto commercial skip, which Tivo will never have.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> I hate to burst your bubble but Tivos, with or without lifetime, have always had low resale value. Granted, one with a lifetime sub will definitely fetch you a higher price than one without, but you'll still never even come close to getting back what you paid for it.


Little does. Same argument can be made for resell value of a PC. Think I would get close to what I paid for my 8088/386/486/Pentium/PII/PIII/etc... boxen?!



mr.unnatural said:


> My S3's originally cost me about $600 apiece. Do you really think anyone will be willing to pay even half that when you can get a new Premiere for about $200-250?


Yes. The original Series3 with OLED display is a coveted box (despite the S-CARD requirement).


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> Little does. Same argument can be made for resell value of a PC. Think I would get close to what I paid for my 8088/386/486/Pentium/PII/PIII/etc... boxen?!


That's an apples and oranges comparison. A series 1 DirecTivo can record standard def as well as any current DVR but an old PC of the same vintage may not be able to run the latest hardware and software without choking, assuming you could even get it to boot up. Aside from lackluster software updates with extra features that I never use and don't really want, the technology in a Tivo hasn't changed all that much since they were first introduced. PCs have more than a slight edge in this area.



> Yes. The original Series3 with OLED display is a coveted box (despite the S-CARD requirement).


Great. I'll gladly make you a good deal on a couple of used S3 Tivos.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> I haven't canceled the S3 with lifetime, at least not yet, anyway. I plan on keeping it in service for another month or two but I will eventually take it off my account.


I know you said you'll sell it on eBay.. But you wait until someone else buys it and then THEY add it to their account.

I'm not sure if you can 'remove it from your account' and it still have lifetime.. (i.e. a "zombie" lifetime not attached to any account).


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> I hate to burst your bubble but Tivos, with or without lifetime, have always had low resale value. Granted, one with a lifetime sub will definitely fetch you a higher price than one without, but you'll still never even come close to getting back what you paid for it. My S3's originally cost me about $600 apiece. Do you really think anyone will be willing to pay even half that when you can get a new Premiere for about $200-250?


I see current S3s with lifetime going for $300+ (one is $375) right now, and will likely go higher by the time the sale finishes.

That seems like a *lot* to me, for "old" hardware. I consider that high resale value, especially if you subtract that from what you paid for it -- then amortize over the # of months you had it.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mattack said:


> I see current S3s with lifetime going for $300+ (one is $375) right now, and will likely go higher by the time the sale finishes.
> 
> That seems like a *lot* to me, for "old" hardware. I consider that high resale value, especially if you subtract that from what you paid for it -- then amortize over the # of months you had it.


Considering that a lifetime sub normally goes for $399 and $299 or less when Tivo runs a special, you're basically just getting partially reimbursed for the subscription cost and giving the Tivo away for next to nothing. An S3 without lifetime typically sells for about $150-175. Of course, the hardware does depreciate over time but it seems that Tivos depreciate more than most other electronics. Anything video related tends to lose value more quickly because the technology keeps changing so often.

I'm not sure what you consider "old" hardware but my S3's are only about 3-1/2 years old, which is still pretty new in the grand scheme of things and still current with the latest technology other than the use of S-cards vs. M-cards. I have a pair of Kenwood L-07M monoblock power amps in my home theater system that I bought back around 1978 and they're still going strong. Now, that's old!


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I'm saying they're old in that they're not currently being sold (S3, the TivoHD is still being sold), and the Premiere is the 'current' one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm about the last person to upgrade to the newest thing.. and the only reason I have my S3 & TivoHD was due to previous upgrade offers.

I guess we'll just disagree on this. With most electronic equipment more than a couple of years old, you don't get much resale value at all. For example, DVD players nowadays. Being able to get over $300 back for something that will be very useful to the new owners, seems like a lot to me.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> Probably. Servicing 4 high bandwidth HD video streams inbound from the tuner, plus one or two inbound from network sources, plus one or two outbound on the network, plus one outbound to the TV requires some pretty serious horsepower, though. I doubt most people's I/O subsystems could handle it reliably. One probably needs a RAID array and a really big chunk of system memory.


 Drives desinated for video use supposedly can service 10 HD streams at a time. In theory, most of the IO overhead can be considered a file and offloaded to io chips. However, due to security concerns, I don't think W7 offloads to the io chip. Even FTP downloads are downloaded, then moved to the correct location. I would agree that gaving W7 actively manage so many streams likely requires a powerful processor, perhaps 64 bit W7 running on a quad processor setup - but they won't tell you that.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

I used to run an XP based MC. It wouldn't let me record some shows at all 'Sunday Morning Shootout', I think.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I think you'll find they've improved Windows 7 Media Center considerably since the 2005 XP Media Center Edition.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

hoyty said:


> Actually it is quite a bit less than you might think. Most modern HD (1-2 TB) can handle 80 MByte/s streaming, especially sequential read / write that TV streams would be. A max bit rate HD stream is 20 Mbit/s or 2.5 MByte/s. That means recording 4 streams + watching 2 streams would be about 15 MByte/s. Plenty of overhead left.


Uh-uh. By definition, multiple streams are *NOT* going to be sequential. They won't be perfectly random, but they are far from sequential. The seeks may span a very large fraction of the disk platter. It's the seek rate that kills one as the number of streams increases. More importantly, however, it isn't the drive that generally limits the transfer rate. Passing data without encryption and decryption is quite fast. The S3 TiVo can readily transfer well over 100 Mbps on and off the drive system if it doesn't have to encrypt and decrypt the data. It has trouble transferring 720p data at 15 Mbps when it is encrypting or decrypting the data.


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## drevilkep (Aug 4, 2010)

lrhorer said:


> Uh-uh. By definition, multiple streams are *NOT* going to be sequential. They won't be perfectly random, but they are far from sequential. The seeks may span a very large fraction of the disk platter. It's the seek rate that kills one as the number of streams increases. More importantly, however, it isn't the drive that generally limits the transfer rate. Passing data without encryption and decryption is quite fast. The S3 TiVo can readily transfer well over 100 Mbps on and off the drive system if it doesn't have to encrypt and decrypt the data. It has trouble transferring 720p data at 15 Mbps when it is encrypting or decrypting the data.


It's a good thing the CableCARD handles the decryption then. Six streams too! Judging by the posts of the Ceton owners on thegreenbutton forums, CPU usage when recording 4 streams and watching a 5th is quite minimal and their single hard disk systems have been keeping up just fine. The Tivo is slow at transferring files because it's CPU can't handle more than ~75mbps of throughput and streaming is the low man on the totem poll, after recording the buffers.


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