# Game of Thrones S03E04 "And Now His Watch is Ended" 2013-Apr-21



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Craster stabbed in the throat, Lord Commander Mormont stabbed in the back, many of the remaining Night's Watch men in rebellion, and Sam fleeing with Gilly and her son. Who knew Sam had some of the hero in him?

Margaery just about has Joffrey eating out of her hand, and it looks like she will soon have Sansa doing the same -- suggesting Sansa might have Loras is genius!

Arya accusing the Hound of murder and Beric Dondarrion to be the champion to fight the Hound in a trial by combat.

Littlefinger has *two* featherbeds to be placed on the ship with him. Is he planning on taking Sansa with him? If so, at least she would appear to get her own bed.

Varys has the sorcerer, who castrated him as a boy, confined in a box. As Varys said, patience is helpful in plotting revenge. And now Varys is plotting with Olenna Tyrell.

Tywin Lannister says he is doing everything he can to rescue Jaime. But all he appears to be doing is sitting at his desk and writing. Tywin does not trust Cersei because she is not as smart as she thinks she is, and she fails to control Joffrey.

One-handed Jaime is ready to lie down and die when he finds he cannot fight worth a damn with his left hand. But Brienne is grateful to Jaime for saving her from rape (or she still plans to trade him for the Stark girls), and she bullies Jaime into choosing to live.

Theon is back where he started, tied to the cross. It seems Theon has no friends left (if he ever had any).

Daenerys could speak High Valyrian all along, and it did not require much patience for her to get revenge on the nasty slave master, who learned, for a brief moment, that a dragon is not a slave. And Daenerys has a loyal army, marching with all three dragons flying overhead.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

And that's for saying that Jorah smelled of piss.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

What a great episode.

I find myself looking forward to the Daenerys segments the most.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Daenerys Stormborn, please marry me.

The last six minutes of this episode were f'n awesome. Hair standing up on the back of the neck awesome. Go kick some ass, girl!

Crap, now I find myself feeling sorry for Jaimie.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ereth said:


> What a great episode.
> 
> I find myself looking forward to the Daenerys segments the most.


huh...I find her plot to be the most predictable. Well done, mind you, but very predictable.

We've watched Sansa grow before our eyes. Last season we witnessed her first period. Last night, we witnessed her first orgasm!


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

This was such a great episode. This season is definitely kicking into high gear. Dany's scenes were fantastic, but I loved the entire episode.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

The Theon story keeps getting weirder.

I'm inclined to think that the guy that sprung him is the Bastard who was sent to retake Winterfell. The bastard used this escape ploy to kill legit sons of the father, therefore ascending in status. Kind of like Jon Snow killing Robb and Bran (and the little kid), thus making himself heir.

Only THAT theory doesn't make sense. If there were a legit son available, why would the father have suggested sending his bastard to free Winterfell? he would have sent his son to do the job.

argh!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Some random thoughts:

- Some really fantastic one-on-ones throughout the show. Jaime and Brienne, Varys and Tyrion, Tywin and Cersei, Varys and the old woman (sorry, can't recall the name), Margery and Sansa, Varys and Rose...it was a ton of fun!

- How good is Margery? The way she plays Joffrey and then is all school girl with Sansa. She can be anyone she wants to be. A true queen. She can even get the people to love joffrey!

- Theon: your sense of direction sucks.

- Uh-oh. Arya is not as safe as we thought she was.

- not about this episode. But I get the feeling that when Mellisandre tells Stanis that he will sit upon the throne, his butt may be on the throne but his head may not be attached to his body.

- I need to learn more about Pod!


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Anubys said:


> The Theon story keeps getting weirder.
> 
> I'm inclined to think that the guy that sprung him is the Bastard who was sent to retake Winterfell. The bastard used this escape ploy to kill legit sons of the father, therefore ascending in status. Kind of like Jon Snow killing Robb and Bran (and the little kid), thus making himself heir.
> 
> ...


It could be that the bastard was left back in the North to "hold the fort" while the legitimate sons rode south with Robb, so he was the closest to Winterfell. That's what I got from what Bolton Senior said to Robb, when he proposed sending his bastard. We are sure that the kid who led him back into captivity is the some one who rescued him from both his initial stint on the cross as well as in the forest, right? Combine with Bolton's abuse of Jamie with this and I'm wondering if it isn't part of a Bolton power play.



> Craster stabbed in the throat, Lord Commander Mormont stabbed in the back, many of the remaining Night's Watch men in rebellion, and Sam fleeing with Gilly and her son. Who knew Sam had some of the hero in him?


Yeah, I'm kind of surprised that the discipline in the Night's watch fell apart so quickly and completely, although Craster did overplay his hand a bit , combine that with real evidence (as opposed to ghost stories) of White Walkers and I can see how they might panic.



> Margaery just about has Joffrey eating out of her hand, and it looks like she will soon have Sansa doing the same -- suggesting Sansa might have Loras is genius!


I think that was Lady Olenna's idea, it was pretty obvious that's what she and Varis were talking about as they wandered the grounds.

Dany's plot was obvious (to everyone but the slave master) but well executed (pun intended). Although it would have been interesting to know that what they were speaking was High Valerian (insisting that she take the interpreter was a clue there, tho as Dany got a look at her diplomatic skills). You have to admit that the slave master did say the troops were untested and that they should be blooded before they engage in any serious action, so Dany took his advice.

Maybe we should start calling Pod "Jonny Podd" (70's porno reference)


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tiassa said:


> It could be that the bastard was left back in the Horth to "hold the fort" while the legitimate sons rode south with Robb, so he was the closest to Winterfell. That's what I got from what Bolton Senior said to Robb, when he proposed sending his bastard. We are sure that the kid who led him back into captivity is the some one who rescued him from both his initial stint on the cross as well as in the forest, right?


Yes. It is the same guy.

What you are saying makes sense. He could only send the bastard quickly. Then a legit son made it back and took over. The bastard staged a coup of sorts and killed one or more legit son. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it!


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## BradJW (Jun 9, 2008)

Ereth said:


> What a great episode.
> 
> I find myself looking forward to the Daenerys segments the most.


This.

Hardly seems like there's any Daenerys at all, but what little there is is awesome!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Another thing that makes no sense: Littlefinger's plan.

If he was going to marry Lysa, what was he going to do with Sansa? Varys' story doesn't make sense; since he could not marry both. He would not get Winterfell AND the Eyrie in any scenario. 

IOW, Littlefinger's plan, according to Varys, was full of holes. And the old lady should have seen that right away. What am I missing?


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## BradJW (Jun 9, 2008)

Anubys said:


> huh...I find her plot to be the most predictable. Well done, mind you, but very predictable.
> 
> We've watched Sansa grow before our eyes. Last season we witnessed her first period. Last night, we witnessed her first orgasm!


I think I missed that scene.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BradJW said:


> I think I missed that scene.


I was just making a joke about her total glee at the thought of marrying Loras


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## BradJW (Jun 9, 2008)

Anubys said:


> I was just making a joke about her total glee at the thought of marrying Loras


Figured that.

But I was just about ready to do a second viewing.

Which one is Loras?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Another thing that makes no sense: Littlefinger's plan.
> 
> If he was going to marry Lysa, what was he going to do with Sansa? Varys' story doesn't make sense; since he could not marry both. He would not get Winterfell AND the Eyrie in any scenario.
> 
> IOW, Littlefinger's plan, according to Varys, was full of holes. And the old lady should have seen that right away. What am I missing?


You're forgetting what we all know about Littlefinger and what Varys knows better than most:

Littlefinger is a conniving weasel who thinks many steps ahead.

Varys knows Littlefinger wants power.
He also knows Littlefinger wants Sansa.

Sansa could be another path to power.

It is a logical leap that somehow, someway, Littlefinger will weasel a better position forhimself with Sansa and Lysa both.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BradJW said:


> Figured that.
> 
> But I was just about ready to do a second viewing.
> 
> Which one is Loras?


I think he is called the Rose Knight. He is Margery's brother; the gay one who was with...argh...can't remember his name...the one Margery was married to...Stannis' younger brother...

Renly?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I really don't care what happens to Theon.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> You're forgetting what we all know about Littlefinger and what Varys knows better than most:
> 
> Littlefinger is a conniving weasel who thinks many steps ahead.
> 
> ...


I agree. I'm just saying that I don't see it. Sansa would be, at best, a bargaining chip. But she is also one that the Lannisters hold very dear; as it is their only path to getting Jaime back. Stealing Sansa away from Tywin would be a very very very bad move for Littlefinger right now.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I agree. I'm just saying that I don't see it. Sansa would be, at best, a bargaining chip. But she is also one that the Lannisters hold very dear; as it is their only path to getting Jaime back. Stealing Sansa away from Tywin would be a very very very bad move for Littlefinger right now.


If the Lannisters knew that she had been stolen away by Littlefinger.

Again, a weasel who thinks many steps ahead.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I think he is called the Rose Knight. He is Margery's brother; the gay one who was with...argh...can't remember his name...the one Margery was married to...Stannis' younger brother...
> 
> Renly?


The Knight of Flowers, and Sansa has always had a thing for him. I think she may be disappointed. 
Yes, Renly.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> huh...I find her plot to be the most predictable. Well done, mind you, but very predictable.
> 
> We've watched Sansa grow before our eyes. Last season we witnessed her first period. Last night, we witnessed her first orgasm!


LOL :up:


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Oh wow that was one hour of pure greatness if you ask me! 
Sorry but I have to use gifs as props for my comments again. Get used to it, it might be a thing now for me. 

First and foremost, I had a feeling exactly what Dany was going to do. That did not water down the awesomeness that it was when it happened. This right here was the best of the entire season so far. 


Spoiler




























The former slave girl's (Messandei) "oh you so screwed now" face was just as priceless as Kraznys "oh crap" face! I love that we got another "fight for me as free men" speech too. This time it was nice that none of them left her!

Okay next you have to know I did the big WTF IS GOING ON HERE with Theon. So did dude (I know this has to be the bastard now, IMDB has him credited as Ramsay Snow? I thought it was Ramsay Bolton?) just lead him around in a circle? WHY? Is he some kind of wacko that gets off on that? I mean just look at his face here


Spoiler














 Why not just leave Theon there to begin with. And poor Theon realizing after the fact just how bad he's screwed it all up. "My real father lost his head at King's Landing". Yeah well now you have no father at all. Oh and you're back to be tortured SURPRISE! Weee!

Okay I'm sorry. I cannot help it. I'm rooting for Jaime to somehow get the upper hand and slay those jerks that cut his hand off, kicked him while he was literally covered in dirt on the ground and fed him piss. Seriously. I know he's done bad things, I haven't forgotten. But I don't really care. That last shot with him covered, laying there with his severed hand by his face was just brutal.


Spoiler















I am so not sure what to think of Margaery. She sure is doing a great job of manipulating Joffrey which is fine by me. Especially when it's pissing mommy off so bad. And Margaery knows it too. Look at her little look back at Cercei like "ha ***** watch this"


Spoiler














but what's her game with Sansa? Is she being sincere with her? I just don't know. Sansa's face surely lit up at the thought of marrying Loras and heading off to Highgarden. Little does she know she's not his type!

I'll have more to say as other comment but those were the main things for me!


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I really don't care what happens to Theon.


I agree and with all the characters and the little amount of time they have why are they even spending time on him? Only if he becomes very important later is my thinking.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay next you have to know I did the big WTF IS GOING ON HERE with Theon. So did dude (I know this has to be the bastard now, IMDB has him credited as Ramsay Snow? I thought it was Ramsay Bolton?) just lead him around in a circle? WHY? Is he some kind of wacko that gets off on that?


In the North, bastards are called Snow, like John


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

cherry ghost said:


> In the North, bastards are called Snow, like John


Oh okay yeah, that makes sense. I should have realized that!


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


>


Why is he jerking off the dragon?


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## Vendikarr (Feb 24, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I am so not sure what to think of Margaery. She sure is doing a great job of manipulating Joffrey which is fine by me. Especially when it's pissing mommy off so bad. And Margaery knows it too. Look at her little look back at Cercei like "ha ***** watch this"
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I haven't read the books, but it looks to me that Margaery wishes to rule. She was pushing Renly to give her a child, now she is charming Joffrey. I think she wants to become queen, give her king a male heir, and then something happens to the king. And then she rules are regent until her child comes of age.

As for her and Sansa, I wouldn't be surprised if Margaery goes both ways, and wants to keep everything in the family.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I was totally shocked to see the Commander of the Night Watch killed off. Pretty happy Craster is gone. What took'em so friggin' long!!


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh wow that was one hour of pure greatness if you ask me!
> Sorry but I have to use gifs as props for my comments again. Get used to it, it might be a thing now for me.
> 
> First and foremost, I had a feeling exactly what Dany was going to do. That did not water down the awesomeness that it was when it happened. This right here was the best of the entire season so far.
> ...


That was totally awesome! Predictable, but awesome!



> Okay I'm sorry. I cannot help it. I'm rooting for Jaime to somehow get the upper *hand* and slay those jerks that cut his hand off, kicked him while he was literally covered in dirt on the ground and fed him piss. Seriously. I know he's done bad things, I haven't forgotten. But I don't really care. That last shot with him covered, laying there with his severed hand by his face was just brutal.
> 
> 
> Spoiler


I agree, but I did get a kick out of the way you phrased it.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

allan said:


> I agree, but I did get a kick out of the way you phrased it.


JFC I didn't realize I did that. PUN NOT INTENDED GUYS!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> ... what's her game with Sansa? Is she being sincere with her? I just don't know. Sansa's face surely lit up at the thought of marrying Loras and heading off to Highgarden. Little does she know she's not his type!


I think she just did her grandmother's bidding (Oleena?). Varys and Oleena agreed on the plan to thwart Littlefinger (Sansa is promised to Loras) and Margery was sent to talk to Sansa.

Here's what I think: the promise to Loras is a hoax. It just needs to work long enough for Sansa to refuse to leave with Littlefinger.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

oh, yeah...question:

Were we supposed to recognize the leader if the Brotherhood Without Banners?

Cause if we were, I did not!

The only person I remember losing an eye was Ned's first in command, who was stabbed in the eye by Jaime. But that guy was KILLED by being stabbed in the eye by Jaime.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I think she just did her grandmother's bidding (Oleena?). Varys and Oleena agreed on the plan to thwart Littlefinger (Sansa is promised to Loras) and Margery was sent to talk to Sansa.
> 
> Here's what I think: the promise to Loras is a hoax. It just needs to work long enough for Sansa to refuse to leave with Littlefinger.


Why would Highgarden not want to marry Sansa to Loras?

Although the move is to thwart Littlefinger, think about what marrying Sansa to Loras means.

If Robb is defeated, and Bran and Rickon are believed to be dead, who inherits Winterfell? If Sansa is Mrried to Loras Tyrell and he can at least manage to get her pregnant, Highgarden has just gained the north their power base.

Remember, EVERYONE in Westoros wants MOAR!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

So what does Samwell think he's going to do with Gilly and the baby? If he runs south, with he be able to get past the wall? If he stays north, will he be able to avoid the White Walkers?

I love that Brienne has developed some true respect/admiration for Jaime. Their relationship is by far the most interesting on the show. 

So what were we supposed to understand from Bran's dream where Jojen tells him he has to go after the three-eyed raven?


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I agree. I'm just saying that I don't see it. Sansa would be, at best, a bargaining chip. But she is also one that the Lannisters hold very dear; as it is their only path to getting Jaime back. Stealing Sansa away from Tywin would be a very very very bad move for Littlefinger right now.


Right now everyone assumes that Bran & Rickon are dead at Winterfell (either by Theon's hand or the ransacking of Winterfell.) If Robb were be killed, Sansa would be the next in line to rule Winterfell. If Littlefinger were to have a son with Sansa, the son woudl then be the rightful heir as Lord of Winterfell. Of course dear old dad would be running the shows for many years (much as Ceceri rules for Joeffry.)

Littlefinger also (slight spoiler from the book as I don't think this has been made obvious yet in the show):



Spoiler



sees a lot of what he loved in Kat in the growing Sansa. He is putting his life long love for Kat in to Sansa.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> The only person I remember losing an eye was Ned's first in command, who was stabbed in the eye by Jaime. But that guy was KILLED by being stabbed in the eye by Jaime.


Beric Dondarrion? Looks a lot like him. Are you sure he is dead?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> Beric Dondarrion? Looks a lot like him. Are you sure he is dead?


He got a long knife through his eye and into his brain. There was no further mention that I recall of him surviving. But I could be wrong.

So the question remains: are we supposed to know who he is? If so, who the hell is he?!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

john4200 said:


> Beric Dondarrion? Looks a lot like him. Are you sure he is dead?


soooooooooo

I didn't know who he was either, figured we weren't meant to know but



Spoiler



IMDB says you're correct that it's Beric so clearly Jaime did not kill him. Wow. Now I want to go back and watch that scene again.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

So it's the same guy?

is he played by the same actor?

Why didn't Arya recognize him, then?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Beric Dondarrion? Looks a lot like him. Are you sure he is dead?


I'm pretty sure I saw the name Beric Dondarrion in the closed captions


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> He got a long knife through his eye and into his brain.


Daenerys was consumed by flames in a fire but she is not dead.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> Daenerys was consumed by flames in a fire but she is not dead.


I'm not disputing that. I assumed he was dead. I can easily be wrong. I just want to make sure we agree who this person is.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Anubys said:


> So the question remains: are we supposed to know who he is? If so, who the hell is he?!


We saw him briefly in Season 1. Ned sent him out with a group to hunt down The Mountain, Gregor Clegane. I think it's a different actor.

ETA : It's a different actor than the one who played him in Season 1 Episode 6.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> First and foremost, I had a feeling exactly what Dany was going to do.


I knew that slave master guy was going to die as soon as soon as I saw him cursing Dany in a language she "couldn't understand". From the moment she tried to feed that crucified slave water, I knew she was going to liberate the city. When she agree to give up her dragon, I knew she wasn't really going to give up her dragon. If only her two knights would have had more faith in her! This episode was great payoff.

My only question was that she commanded the unsullied to kill all the masters, but not any of their children. With all of the men and some of the women dead, who is going to feed that city? Who is going to protect them from the next band of marauders or looters?

What kind of an idiot sells his entire army to someone who seeks to use that army for conquest? I didn't find this bit plausible. There would be a policy of never selling more soldiers than you could defend against.



photoshopgrl said:


> Okay next you have to know I did the big WTF IS GOING ON HERE with Theon. So did dude (I know this has to be the bastard now, IMDB has him credited as Ramsay Snow? I thought it was Ramsay Bolton?)


"Snow" seems to be the common surname given to bastards. It was explained in S1, IIRC in the discussion Jon Snow had with Tryrion.

Maybe the bastard had some friends among the people that Theon slayed at winterfell. He does seem to be taking this personally. In addition to dispatching some of his own men for unknown purposes, the ruse did allow him to be the hero who captured Theon, perhaps elevating his position.

I just wonder what he's going to do to prevent Theon from talking. Jaime lost his hand. Could theon lose his tongue?

I also keep in mind there was a faceless man in S2 and keep wondering if that guy is going to pop back up sometime, and what he may look like.



photoshopgrl said:


> Okay I'm sorry. I cannot help it. I'm rooting for Jaime to somehow get the upper hand and slay those jerks that cut his hand off, kicked him while he was literally covered in dirt on the ground and fed him piss.


I was wondering 1) why they were carrying around a canteen full of horse piss, and 2) which unfortunate one of his men was in charge of collecting it.



anubys said:


> He got a long knife through his eye and into his brain. There was no further mention that I recall of him surviving. But I could be wrong.


When did this happen? I clearly remember Ned Stark sending him and that I was glad The Mountain was going to be taken out, but I don't recall ever hearing what happened to the men who were sent.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

> but what's her game with Sansa? Is she being sincere with her? I just don't know.


Easy, Sansa marries Loras, creating an alliance between the Starks and the Tyrells. Margery marries Joffrey creating an alliance between the Baratheon/Lannisters and Tyrells, this makes the Tyrells the linchpin that could hold Westeros together.



> Sansa's face surely lit up at the thought of marrying Loras and heading off to Highgarden.


I'm sure Sansa would light up at anything that got her out of King's Landing. and IIRC Loras was nice to her (or at least not nasty)



> Little does she know she's not his type!


She does seem to be "Unlucky in Love"


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

TriBruin said:


> Littlefinger also (slight spoiler from the book as I don't think this has been made obvious yet in the show):
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



They haven't come out and said it as much, but it is definitely hinted, Littlefinger has made several referenced to Kat being the love of his life


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

I wonder if Loras' "type" is whatever benefits house Tyrell at the moment.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I think she just did her grandmother's bidding (Oleena?). Varys and Oleena agreed on the plan to thwart Littlefinger (Sansa is promised to Loras) and Margery was sent to talk to Sansa.
> 
> Here's what I think: the promise to Loras is a hoax. It just needs to work long enough for Sansa to refuse to leave with Littlefinger.


How can they possibly even get Sansa promised to Loras without communication to Robb? It is not like Sansa has any say in the matter.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

zordude said:


> How can they possibly even get Sansa promised to Loras without communication to Robb? It is not like Sansa has any say in the matter.


At this point I don't think anyone really cares what Rob wants. Sansa would care but she is not allowed to talk to him.

I can't wait to see Cersei and Tywin's faces when they learn about Jaime's sword hand.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

smbaker said:


> When did this happen? I clearly remember Ned Stark sending him and that I was glad The Mountain was going to be taken out, but I don't recall ever hearing what happened to the men who were sent.


Right after the Lannisters found out that Cat kidnapped Tyrion, Jaime surrounded Ned and his men coming out of (maybe wrong here) Littlefinger's house. I think Ned might have been investigating one of the King's bastards. Jaime demanded Tyrion is given back. Ned's man tried to fight Jaime but Jaime surprised him with a hidden knife in the eye.

Ned and Jaime then had a sword fight that was interrupted by one of Jaime's men stabbing Ned from the back with a spear (in the leg), much to Jaime's chagrin.

I don't recall Ned's guy surviving. but clearly, he did. If so, someone posted that it's a different actor playing the role; which explains why I do not recognize him.

Still, Arya should have recognized him!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mwhip said:


> At this point I don't think anyone really cares what Rob wants.


Most people don't care what Rob posts, either!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

zordude said:


> How can they possibly even get Sansa promised to Loras without communication to Robb? It is not like Sansa has any say in the matter.


I think the important thing is to make sure Sansa doesn't get on the boat with Littlefinger. This is now accomplished.

Sansa has been in lust with Loras since he gave her that rose at the jousting tournament (something that Loras has zero recollection of).


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## Vendikarr (Feb 24, 2004)

mwhip said:


> At this point I don't think anyone really cares what Rob wants. Sansa would care but she is not allowed to talk to him.
> 
> I can't wait to see Cersei and Tywin's faces when they learn about Jaime's sword hand.


Given that Sansa's family is in insurrection against the crown, they have little to say. Sansa, although in actuality a hostage, is probably considered a ward of the crown. Convince Cersei or Tywin the match is a good idea and that is probably all they need.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

tiassa said:


> ...I think that was Lady Olenna's idea, it was pretty obvious that's what she and Varis were talking about as they wandered the grounds.


A real hoot was as she mentioned that they don't have the functioning parts, Varys looked down to see if his were still gone.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Why is he jerking off the dragon?


Because the stage hands are pulling up the other end of the chain. 

So Sansa is being pulled in three directions. Jeffy wants her in Kings Landing as mistress. Margery wants her to go to the Tyrrells. Littlefinger wants her - I say, so he can force his long lusted for Catlyn to marry him.

I say that Tyrion should marry her to screw up everybody's plans.

I'm guessing we're going to see an epic battle between The Hound and his brother, The Mountain. The Mountain can cheat by swinging a torch.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

netringer said:


> Because the stage hands are pulling up the other end of the chain.
> 
> So Sansa is being pulled in three directions. Jeffy wants her in Kings Landing as mistress. Margery wants her to go to the Tyrrells. Littlefinger wants her - I say, so he can force his long lusted for Catlyn to marry him.
> 
> ...


Hmmm.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm not sure about the assertion that Joffrey wanting Sansa for a mistress. LF alluded to Joffrey not letting go of his toys; but that was just to frighten her into thinking of him as her savior.

At this point, it seems that Sansa is nothing to Joffrey (other than as a hostage).


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

netringer said:


> Jeffy wants her in Kings Landing as mistress.


Have we seen this? If so I must have gotten totally zoomed.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Unless the show runners have decided to do something different, the guy Jaime stabbed in the eye from the first season was not Beric Dondarrion.

Beric Dondarrion is seen briefly in the scene when Ned is sitting on the Iron Throne and orders the Mountain brought to justice. This is AFTER Ned gets skewered and Beric has both eyes and no scars.


----------



## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> Beric Dondarrion is seen briefly in the scene when Ned is sitting on the Iron Throne and orders the Mountain brought to justice. This is AFTER Ned gets skewered and Beric has both eyes and no scars.


Correct.

The guy killed with Ned outside LittleFinger's brothel was Jory.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Just realized how screwed Snow is. The only two people who knew he's in deep cover is the Commander and the guy who he "killed" last season. Does Sam know? 'Cause he's the only person that can clear him from being labeled a traitor.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

zordude said:


> How can they possibly even get Sansa promised to Loras without communication to Robb? It is not like Sansa has any say in the matter.


Robb is a "traitor". He has no say. Brann and Rickun are presumed dead. I don't see any male Starks left to ask.



anubys said:


> At this point, it seems that Sansa is nothing to Joffrey (other than as a hostage).


Agreed. Furthermore, I'm not even convinced Joffrey likes women (unless he thinks they're evil schemers like he is). Put her head on a pike next to her father's, perhaps, but no evidence that he wants her as a mistress.



gossamer88 said:


> The only two people who knew he's in deep cover is the Commander and the guy who he "killed" last season.


When the did commander learn Snow was under cover? I thought it was only half-hand who knew.

I do think Snow could probably explain his situation and convince the Commander if he ever gets the opportunity. The night's watch is in disarray, it might be best for all involved if Manse Rayder assumed control of the wall. I think Jon Snow knows this.


----------



## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

Just a few of my uninformed conclusions. I have not read the books.

IMHO, Littlefinger doesn't want Sansa for Sansa's sake. He wants to "take" Sansa to punish Cat for rejecting him and ruining Sansa's future is a bonus. At some point, Tyrion's promise to Shea to protect Sansa is going to pull him into the scenario. 

Is the wizard in the box something new that Varys has just come into possession of or has he been keeping his as a pet for a while? I can't imagine being able to keep something like that quiet this whole time.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

cherry ghost said:


> In the North, bastards are called Snow, like John





photoshopgrl said:


> Oh okay yeah, that makes sense. I should have realized that!


Each regions of the 7 Kingdoms has their own surname for bastards _who are borne of noble houses_:

The Crownlands = Waters
The North = Snow
The Iron Islands = Pyke
The Riverlands = Rivers
The Vale = Stone
The Westerlands = Hill
The Reach = Flowers
The Stormlands = Storm
Dorne = Sand


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tsiehta said:


> Correct.
> 
> The guy killed with Ned outside LittleFinger's brothel was Jory.


Jory! YES! that was the name.

So it was someone else. And then they made it worse by casting a different actor.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Right after the Lannisters found out that Cat kidnapped Tyrion, Jaime surrounded Ned and his men coming out of (maybe wrong here) Littlefinger's house. I think Ned might have been investigating one of the King's bastards. Jaime demanded Tyrion is given back. Ned's man tried to fight Jaime but Jaime surprised him with a hidden knife in the eye.
> 
> Ned and Jaime then had a sword fight that was interrupted by one of Jaime's men stabbing Ned from the back with a spear (in the leg), much to Jaime's chagrin.
> 
> ...


That wasn't Beric Dondarrion. That was one of Ned's lieutenants from Winterfell who came down with him to be part of the Hand's guards.

Beric Dondarrion is/was a knight and bannermen of House Baratheon. After the big tournament in Season 1, he stuck around King's Landing, and then was ordered by Ned Stark (who, as the Hand, was handling the King's business whilst Robert was off on his fatal hunting trip) to go and capture the Mountain (Gregor Clegane) who was raping and pillaging the villages of the Riverlands.


----------



## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

Wonder how long it's going to take before Jorah Mormont finds out his father, the Lord Commander is dead and what effect is it going to have on him when he's done??


----------



## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Each regions of the 7 Kingdoms has their own surname for bastards _who are borne of noble houses_:
> 
> The Crownlands = Waters
> The North = Snow
> ...


Thanks, I didn't know that


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dany certainly does get more than her share of Really Cool Scenes.


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Dany certainly does get more than her share of Really Cool Scenes.


I'd be happy if they got rid of every other storyline except hers!


----------



## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Dany certainly does get more than her share of Really Cool Scenes.


Even though we all pretty much knew how this would turn out it was very well done and quite exciting!!

One of the best shows on TV!!!!!

Gerry


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

She was very queenly.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

photoshopgrl said:


> And poor Theon realizing after the fact just how bad he's screwed it all up. "My real father lost his head at King's Landing". Yeah well now you have no father at all. Oh and you're back to be tortured SURPRISE! Weee!


This is the first time I've felt any sympathy for Theon. He's finally figured out that it wasn't that bad in Winterfell and he screwed up by going with his nasty father and sister. He should have known it was a fake when they said she was going to rescue him.



DevdogAZ said:


> So what does Samwell think he's going to do with Gilly and the baby? If he runs south, with he be able to get past the wall? If he stays north, will he be able to avoid the White Walkers?


Yeah, once Craster is dead, Gilly and her baby aren't really in any danger there unless the Crows gone wild would rape her. And we know there was food around. Seems like he could have at least gotten some supplies together.



smbaker said:


> The night's watch is in disarray, it might be best for all involved if Manse Rayder assumed control of the wall. I think Jon Snow knows this.


How would it be good for the wildlings to control the wall? And do they even want to or do they just want to get around/over/through it.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

stellie93 said:


> Yeah, once Craster is dead, Gilly and her baby aren't really in any danger there unless the Crows gone wild would rape her.


That is exactly what would have happened to Gilly if she had not hightailed it out of there. So yes, Gilly was in danger. Also, Sam was in danger from some of the men. They both needed to get out of there quickly.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> This is the first time I've felt any sympathy for Theon. He's finally figured out that it wasn't that bad in Winterfell and he screwed up by going with his nasty father and sister. He should have known it was a fake when they said she was going to rescue him.


Well, to be fair, he felt that way because he thought it was his father torturing him and his father that was out to get him. Yes, he also thought his father humiliated him when he asked him to raid some fishing villages, but the main source of angst was because of the lies the guy was feeding him.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> This is the first time I've felt any sympathy for Theon. He's finally figured out that it wasn't that bad in Winterfell and he screwed up by going with his nasty father and sister. He should have known it was a fake when they said she was going to rescue him.
> ....


I have no sympathy for Theon. Ned treated him well and Robb and John treated him as a brother, so he decides on his own to sack the family's castle.

He doesn't get a do-over. Let him die in pain.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

netringer said:


> I have no sympathy for Theon. Ned treated him well and Robb and John treated him as a brother, so he decides on his own to sack the family's castle.


Not exactly. I can remember at least 1 instance where Robb very directly reminds him that he is not a Stark. Remember the scene when Bran was attacked by the wildlings? Theon was telling Robb of his duty to defend his father, and Robb told him "It's not your duty because it's not your house". That's what caused Theon to leave angrily, causing Robb to confront the Wildlings on his own (initially).

So yes, they generally treated him pretty nice, but they probably fairly regularly took their opportunities to remind him he wasn't a Stark.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Didja realize that when Jeffy marries Margery, he'll be *marrying HIS AUNT?*

"I'm my own Grandpa...."


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

smbaker said:


> I wonder if Loras' "type" is whatever benefits house Tyrell at the moment.


Loras wasn't acting for the benefit of House Tyrell when he was secretly getting it on with Renly.



netringer said:


> A real hoot was as she mentioned that they don't have the functioning parts, Varys looked down to see if his were still gone.


"I wonder what happens when the non-existent bumps into the decrepit." Awesome line.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

netringer said:


> Didja realize that when Jeffy marries Margery, he'll be marrying HIS AUNT?
> 
> "I'm my own Grandpa...."


How do you figure? Joffrey's parents are Jaime and Cersei Lannister. The people believe his real father was Robert Baratheon. Regardless of whether his father is a Lannister or a Baratheon, neither of those would make Margaery Tyrell his aunt.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> How do you figure? Joffrey's parents are Jaime and Cersei Lannister. The people believe his real father was Robert Baratheon. Regardless of whether his father is a Lannister or a Baratheon, neither of those would make Margaery Tyrell his aunt.


Renley Baratheon's wife & queen was officially Jeffy's aunt.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

smbaker said:


> What kind of an idiot sells his entire army to someone who seeks to use that army for conquest? I didn't find this bit plausible. There would be a policy of never selling more soldiers than you could defend against.


There probably didn't really seem to need to be any such policy in place. I got the impression that Dany raided a fairly large amount of gold from Qarth, but even all of that gold (including the ship she bought with it) was only enough to buy a few hundred men. So they were probably in the habit of selling a few hundred men at a time. Maybe 500 here and there. Then every once in a great while, maybe someone really wealthy comes along and buys a few thousand men. He's probably never entertained an offer for all of their men before, and it was just a joke to him. Then suddenly he gets a "real" offer for a dragon, gets overcome with greed, and makes a stupid decision.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

tiassa said:


> You have to admit that the slave master did say the troops were untested and that they should be blooded before they engage in any serious action, so Dany took his advice.


Did he say that and I'm not remembering it? Or were you mixing it up with the comment from the slave owner's advisor, when Dany asked to buy the men still in training and he advised the slave owner not to sell them because they were untested (I think that was the word) and it could make them look bad if they fail in battle?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Did he say that and I'm not remembering it? Or were you mixing it up with the comment from the slave owner's advisor, when Dany asked to buy the men still in training and he advised the slave owner not to sell them because they were untested (I think that was the word) and it could make them look bad if they fail in battle?


He did say that. He told her that since they are untested, she should train them by raiding villages. He also asked her to bring him any young ones she captures, he would buy them from her, train them, and have more soldiers ready if she needs them later. Winning all around!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

netringer said:


> Renley Baratheon's wife & queen was officially Jeffy's aunt.


Right, which makes two ways in which she is not biologically related to Joffrey.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

netringer said:


> Renley Baratheon's wife & queen was officially Jeffy's aunt.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Right, which makes two ways in which she is not biologically related to Joffrey.




netringer was clearly talking about Jeffy!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Has anyone seen new GoT Facebook spoofs? The first one (posted a couple of episodes ago) was really funny!


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> netringer was clearly talking about Jeffy!


I think the key word was "biologically."


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> I think the key word was "biologically."


I'm not sure what your point is. I don't think anyone mentioned anything about biology, incest, or blood relatives. The comment was simply that he is marrying his aunt. And indeed, he is marrying his aunt.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> I'm not sure what your point is. I don't think anyone mentioned anything about biology, incest, or blood relatives. The comment was simply that he is marrying his aunt. And indeed, he is marrying his aunt.


 "I'm my own Grandpa...."


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Non-book reader here:

Do Dany and her army still needs to cross an ocean to get back to Westeros? Seems kind of stupid of them to leave a port city on foot.

Anyone else get the feeling that the Tyrell's arranged marriages will not be happening? They will be too powerful if they were to occur.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Right, which makes two ways in which she is not biologically related to Joffrey.


Who said "biologically?" Are you biologically related to any of your aunts?

The point is that the kid is marrying a woman who is effectively of the same generation as his own father and mother.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

dtle said:


> Non-book reader here:
> 
> Do Dany and her army still needs to cross an ocean to get back to Westeros? Seems kind of stupid of them to leave a port city on foot.
> 
> Anyone else get the feeling that the Tyrell's arranged marriages will not be happening? They will be too powerful if they were to occur.


The Dothkhari really hate ships. Even when her husband swore revenge and to get Dany her throne, he said he would cross the ocean to do it. Also, based on the map we've seen and conversations they have had, it was always about getting an army AND SHIPS.

I assume Dany will now go back and reclaim her "kaleisi" throne first. Expand her army to include the Dothkari, then cross the ocean with a mix of Dothkhari, Dragons, and Unsullied. Which is going to lay waste to anything King's Landing can put together.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

netringer said:


> Who said "biologically?" Are you biologically related to any of your aunts?
> 
> The point is that the kid is marrying a woman who is effectively of the same generation as his own father and mother.


Well, I thought it was kind of amusing about the Aunt thing. But she is not of the same generation as his mother and father. I don't know how old the actress is, but I would think she is playing someone no older than 22; and probably younger.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> "I'm my own Grandpa...."


Yeah, but that guy is not "biologically" related either.

His father marries his widow wife's daughter.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYlJH81dSiw[/media]


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

netringer said:


> Didja realize that when Jeffy marries Margery, he'll be *marrying HIS AUNT?*
> 
> "I'm my own Grandpa...."


That's not even CLOSE to the weirdest thing going on in 'Ole Joff's family tree!!!


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

netringer said:


> Who said "biologically?" Are you biologically related to any of your aunts?


You ask the second question as if you are thinking no one could possibly answer yes (or I have misunderstood your point).

But there are two types of aunts, by-marriage and by-blood. My father's brother's wife is my aunt by-marriage -- no blood relation. My mother's sister is my aunt by-blood -- we are genetically related.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> The Dothkhari really hate ships. Even when her husband swore revenge and to get Dany her throne, he said he would cross the ocean to do it. Also, based on the map we've seen and conversations they have had, it was always about getting an army AND SHIPS.
> 
> I assume Dany will now go back and reclaim her "kaleisi" throne first. Expand her army to include the Dothkari, then cross the ocean with a mix of Dothkhari, Dragons, and Unsullied. Which is going to lay waste to anything King's Landing can put together.


Haven't they already been on ships though? They were getting sick all over the place on the way to Astapor.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Haven't they already been on ships though? They were getting sick all over the place on the way to Astapor.


Ah, are you saying that Astapor is on the Westoros side already? I don't think so. From the opening credits, it seems to be somewhere between Quarth and King's Landing but clearly on the Quarth/Dothkhari side of the continent.

I assume it was much faster to travel by sea than by foot. I think the scene illustrated why the Dothkhari hate ships and resisted going over and conquering Westoros.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Aha...Found an amazingly detailed map

Dany would have had to re-cross the red waste to get to Astapor but she is still a continent away. You can also see where Valyria is on that map.

If you'll excuse me, I will now spend the next 2 hours studying this map


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jesus...Robb really controls a huge portion of the continent. If Cat had succeeded in getting Renly/Loras on Robb's side, Joffrey would have been dead in a matter of days.

I see what Tywin is doing now. Robb has made an enemy of the guy controlling the Twins, right? (by reneging on the promise to marry his daughter). If the Eyrie can go to the Lannisters, Robb would be cut-off from Winterfell and would be stuck in Riverrun and Harrenhall. Robb would be toast. 

I also see why Littlefinger is travelling by ship. He can't cross over to The Eyrie on land as Robb's forces control that part of the map.

Does anyone know the name of the area Arya is in? I'd like to know how close she is to Robb.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Does anyone know the name of the area Arya is in? I'd like to know how close she is to Robb.


If they are following the books - which they have been doing quite well - she is currently at "The Inn of the Kneeling Man". This is the place where The Hound was brought in and Arya recognized him. Number 21 on your map.

Just a word of advice about that map. It allows you to "follow" the characters from chapter to chapter by stepping through the books. Pretty slick - however - if you haven't read the books, don't do that. Just leave the map in its default state.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Does anyone know the name of the area Arya is in? I'd like to know how close she is to Robb.


She's still pretty near Harrenhal.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

john4200 said:


> You ask the second question as if you are thinking no one could possibly answer yes (or I have misunderstood your point).
> 
> But there are two types of aunts, by-marriage and by-blood. My father's brother's wife is my aunt by-marriage -- no blood relation. My mother's sister is my aunt by-blood -- we are genetically related.


YeahIknow. I should have said "ALL of your aunts."


----------



## Uther (Dec 21, 2001)

netringer said:


> YeahIknow. I should have said "ALL of your aunts."


That's no better. All my aunts are blood relations.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mostman said:


> If they are following the books - which they have been doing quite well - she is currently at "The Inn of the Kneeling Man". This is the place where The Hound was brought in and Arya recognized him. Number 21 on your map.
> 
> Just a word of advice about that map. It allows you to "follow" the characters from chapter to chapter by stepping through the books. Pretty slick - however - if you haven't read the books, don't do that. Just leave the map in its default state.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> She's still pretty near Harrenhal.


So she's about a couple of days' ride from Robb and Cat!


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

mostman said:


> If they are following the books - which they have been doing quite well - she is currently at "The Inn of the Kneeling Man". This is the place where The Hound was brought in and Arya recognized him. Number 21 on your map.
> 
> Just a word of advice about that map. It allows you to "follow" the characters from chapter to chapter by stepping through the books. Pretty slick - however - if you haven't read the books, don't do that. Just leave the map in its default state.


It looks like you can do it by episode too.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

mostman said:


> If they are following the books - which they have been doing quite well - she is currently at "The Inn of the Kneeling Man". This is the place where The Hound was brought in and Arya recognized him. Number 21 on your map.


Yes, but the place where they meet up with Beric Dondarrion is Hollow Hill


----------



## bobino (Jul 24, 2002)

Why are the Twins important when the Kingsroad lies to the east of this bridge and does not cross it? 

It seems that when traveling south it would be easy to avoid it. There is no important city to the west.


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

jehma said:


> It looks like you can do it by episode too.


This map is amazing!!

I was going to share that, as well. I went to this last episode and clicked on the folks I wanted to see... so very, very cool! :up:


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> "I'm my own Grandpa...."


And??? Is that supposed to disprove my point somehow?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> And??? Is that supposed to disprove my point somehow?


I don't think anyone has any point. It was a remark/joke, IMO. And now it's become a TCF-freak show of an argument or something. I confess to playing along for a while but it really has nothing to do with the show.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

bobino said:


> Why are the Twins important when the Kingsroad lies to the east of this bridge and does not cross it?
> 
> It seems that when traveling south it would be easy to avoid it. There is no important city to the west.


The Twins block river access. Lock it down and you can limit supplies going north and south. For marching an army you have to go through Moat Caitlin, which is surrounded by marshland.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Jesus...Robb really controls a huge portion of the continent. If Cat had succeeded in getting Renly/Loras on Robb's side, Joffrey would have been dead in a matter of days.
> 
> I see what Tywin is doing now. Robb has made an enemy of the guy controlling the Twins, right? (by reneging on the promise to marry his daughter). If the Eyrie can go to the Lannisters, Robb would be cut-off from Winterfell and would be stuck in Riverrun and Harrenhall. Robb would be toast.
> 
> ...


She is roughly in the space between Harrenhal and Riverrun.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

dtle said:


> Do Dany and her army still needs to cross an ocean to get back to Westeros? Seems kind of stupid of them to leave a port city on foot.


Unless I'm mistaken, she has 1 boat and over 8000 men. Not even the largest modern cruise ship can hold that many people. I don't think they are getting anywhere by sea in their current capacity. That doesnt necessarily mean they are abandoning the 1 ship they do have.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Just a word of caution. I totally spoilered myself with that map (big time), moving the slider to the end, mistakenly thinking that it would bring me current with the TV show. I didn't notice I was on the book search.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

MonsterJoe said:


> Just a word of caution. I totally spoilered myself with that map (big time), moving the slider to the end, mistakenly thinking that it would bring me current with the TV show. I didn't notice I was on the book search.


That's why I try my best not to mess with anything that's not the HBO viewers guide. Too many posts here over the last 2 seasons of somebody google-searching with unintended consequences.

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/season3/

They have a map that, while not as detailed as the one linked to earlier (yes, I peeked after others confirmed it was ok if you don't mess with settings), it pretty well detailed and more than sufficient for most purposes.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, she has 1 boat and over 8000 men. Not even the largest modern cruise ship can hold that many people. I don't think they are getting anywhere by sea in their current capacity. That doesnt necessarily mean they are abandoning the 1 ship they do have.


Just make lotsa trips.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Varys's tracking info:









http://www.grantland.com/blog/holly...-mail-order-sorcerer-from-game-of-thrones?kml

BTW, was the sorcerer's mouth sewed shut?


----------



## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Looked like he was gagged with a thick piece of rope.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> You're forgetting what we all know about Littlefinger and what Varys knows better than most:
> 
> Littlefinger is a conniving weasel who thinks many steps ahead.
> 
> ...


Or Littlefinger either doesn't actually want to marry Lysa, or doubts his ability to accomplish that, but isn't willing to object to the Hand's strong suggestion to go try to marry Lysa.

(If nothing else leaving now sticks someone else (Tyrion) with the problem of the massive debt the kingdom has aquired; and what to do for money to pay for the war if the lending train has stopped)


smbaker said:


> I was wondering 1) why they were carrying around a canteen full of horse piss, and 2) which unfortunate one of his men was in charge of collecting it.


They might have done so just to humiliate Jamie by tricking him into drinking it. OTOH you can get almost the same amusement simply by telling him the water is horse piss - and then you don't need to bother collecting any, or contaminating a canteen with it.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ment said:


> Looked like he was gagged with a thick piece of rope.


It looked to me to be sewn shut. Which makes sense, since he could conceivably cast a spell if allowed to speak.

I guess we then know he did not come from Pyke!

(think about it...a little more...there you go )


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> It looked to me to be sewn shut. Which makes sense, since he could conceivably cast a spell if allowed to speak.


I agree it looked to be sewn shut.



Anubys said:


> I guess we then know he did not come from Pyke!
> 
> (think about it...a little more...there you go )


I'm still thinking..... thinking some more 

Is the joke something like: iron men never shut up?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> I agree it looked to be sewn shut.
> 
> I'm still thinking..... thinking some more
> 
> Is the joke something like: iron men never shut up?


LOL...That's just Theon 

Their motto is "We do not sow"

A horrible pun, I know, which is why I didn't want to actually type it


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> LOL...That's just Theon
> 
> Their motto is "We do not sow"
> 
> A horrible pun, I know, which is why I didn't want to actually type it


1) That's not as bad as you think
2) Gah!!!!! I should have been able to figure that one out


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> 1) That's not as bad as you think


I thought it was so-so.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Here is this episode's "What if GoT had a facebook" image.



Spoiler















Looks like it is broke up, the rest of the images can be found here:

http://www.happyplace.com/23374/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-4


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

On my TV, it looked like the Wizard's mouth was sewn shut. Looking at the screen capture on the above facebook spoof, it does indeed look like some sort of rag is wrapped around his head, and that the rag has some sort of string bundling it up, which gave the mistaken impression of his mouth being sewn shut.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

I liked the scene where Sansa is praying at the weirwood stump in Kings Landing. They didn't feel a need to point out that it was a stump, just had it there, her praying. Good stuff.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

What?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I didn't notice that. 

billypritchard is referring to the fact that most northerners pray to the old gods, which they always do at weirwood trees (the red trees with faces on them, like in that garden in Winterfell, or the tree where Jon Snow took his oath to the nights watch). We were told at one point that when the southerners turned to the new gods, they cut down all of the weirwood trees in the south. But apparently sansa found a stump to pray at.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I consider myself a pretty bright guy, but the **** I miss in this show... Srsly.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

billypritchard said:


> I liked the scene where Sansa is praying at the weirwood stump in Kings Landing. They didn't feel a need to point out that it was a stump, just had it there, her praying. Good stuff.


Thanks for pointing that out. I did not notice that at all and I doubt I would have noticed it on my third viewing.

At this point, I watch it live first, a second time Monday night, and a third time Saturday or Sunday to prepare for the next show. The third viewing works well because we had discussed the show on TCF by then and I've read 2-3 reviews. I can then just relax and absorb everything going on.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

MonsterJoe said:


> I consider myself a pretty bright guy, but the **** I miss in this show... Srsly.


QFT - No kidding. I watch the show, and then I come here to really understand what happened


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> QFT - No kidding. I watch the show, and then I come here to really understand what happened


^This!


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, she has 1 boat and over 8000 men. Not even the largest modern cruise ship can hold that many people. I don't think they are getting anywhere by sea in their current capacity.


You don't think 8000 Unsullied could _persuade _someone in the harbor to take them on board?


----------



## dagojr (Jan 9, 2004)

a summary of the episode.



Spoiler



http://www.buzzfeed.com/erinlarosa/lesson-of-the-day-do-not-mess-with-daenerys-targaryen


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

dagojr said:


> a summary of the episode.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



LOL @ "Burn, sexist bald man, BURN."


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> That's not even CLOSE to the weirdest thing going on in 'Ole Joff's family tree!!!


Joff, I'm your Uncle Daddy.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> I didn't notice that.
> 
> billypritchard is referring to the fact that most northerners pray to the old gods, which they always do at weirwood trees (the red trees with faces on them, like in that garden in Winterfell, or the tree where Jon Snow took his oath to the nights watch). We were told at one point that when the southerners turned to the new gods, they cut down all of the weirwood trees in the south. But apparently sansa found a stump to pray at.


I did notice the stump. Also in the opening scene of Winterfell while everything else is burning they show weirwood trees coming up green through the black mess. I take that as a sign that the Starks aren't done yet. :up:


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Marco said:


> You don't think 8000 Unsullied could _persuade _someone in the harbor to take them on board?


Don't forget the three dragons.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I did notice the stump. Also in the opening scene of Winterfell while everything else is burning they show weirwood trees coming up green through the black mess. I take that as a sign that the Starks aren't done yet. :up:


Do people know about the weirwood trees solely from the tv show or from the books?

I have to say how much I like it when the scenes shift to Danaerys from an aesthetics point of view. Everything in the north is various shades of black, grey and dirty white with a whole bunch of mud brown thrown in. At least it's bright and sunny with some muted colors in Danys-ville.


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

I knew of them from the TV. I've not read the books.

You'll probably remember from early - maybe Season 1 - Ned Stark is praying at the trees, and Catelyn or someone comes out and we get to see all the faces on the trees, like they're talking back. Or something like that... Hopefully one with a better memory than mine will also chime in here.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

netringer said:


> Varys's tracking info:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

SoBelle0 said:


> I knew of them from the TV. I've not read the books.
> 
> You'll probably remember from early - maybe Season 1 - Ned Stark is praying at the trees, and Catelyn or someone comes out and we get to see all the faces on the trees, like they're talking back. Or something like that... Hopefully one with a better memory than mine will also chime in here.


I agree. There were many references in Season 1. Jon Snow also took his vows next to one at Castle Black. Even the Maester crawled to the base of the tree to die (after Winterfell was burned down).


----------



## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

SoBelle0 said:


> I knew of them from the TV. I've not read the books.
> 
> You'll probably remember from early - maybe Season 1 - Ned Stark is praying at the trees, and Catelyn or someone comes out and we get to see all the faces on the trees, like they're talking back. Or something like that... Hopefully one with a better memory than mine will also chime in here.


Jon Snow also made his vows to a heart tree because he believed in the old gods


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm not sure about this whole "unsullied" thing.

-Sully.


----------



## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> I have to say how much I like it when the scenes shift to Danaerys from an aesthetics point of view. Everything in the north is various shades of black, grey and dirty white with a whole bunch of mud brown thrown in. At least it's bright and sunny with some muted colors in Danys-ville.


Yes, I agree. The other locals are very dreary and not very pleasing to look at. But wherever Danaerys seems to be is much brighter, colorful and pleasant to see.

Gerry


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> QFT - No kidding. I watch the show, and then I come here to really understand what happened


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9626134#post9626134


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

SullyND said:


> I'm not sure about this whole "unsullied" thing.
> 
> -Sully.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

No Sullies!


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Gerryex said:


> Yes, I agree. The other locals are very dreary and not very pleasing to look at. But wherever Danaerys seems to be is much brighter, colorful and pleasant to see.
> 
> Gerry


Maybe it's because "Winter is Coming" in Westeros, and there has been an all-out war, while it's not-Winter (don't know about other seasons) and relatively peaceful where Dany is?


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> On my TV, it looked like the Wizard's mouth was sewn shut. Looking at the screen capture on the above facebook spoof, it does indeed look like some sort of rag is wrapped around his head, and that the rag has some sort of string bundling it up, which gave the mistaken impression of his mouth being sewn shut.


On my first viewing I thought it was sewn shut for sure, but on my second and third viewings it looked like a big rope in his mouth. However, his hands aren't tied so I dont' understan why he couldn't get it out of his mouth unles he was simply not strong enough.



billypritchard said:


> I liked the scene where Sansa is praying at the weirwood stump in Kings Landing. They didn't feel a need to point out that it was a stump, just had it there, her praying. Good stuff.


I totally missed that I'm usually able to pick up on stuff like that. To me it looked like she was just kneeling at a rock that was part of that seawall. It makes total sense that it was a Weirwood though



Spoiler



Although in the books, I believe the only Weirwood was in a courtyard of the castle in King's Landing. I suppose there were choped down ones elsewhere.


----------



## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

Ereth said:


> What a great episode.
> 
> I find myself looking forward to the Daenerys segments the most.


This.

They seemingly always wrap up the episode and currently exist in a bubble separate from the rest of the action but the anticipation when continents collide is growing at an amazing pace.


----------



## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Daenerys Stormborn, please marry me.
> 
> The last six minutes of this episode were f'n awesome. Hair standing up on the back of the neck awesome. Go kick some ass, girl!


Yeah she does very much kick ass. Her advancement and development as a character has been amazing but huge kudos for the actress as she has really brought to life her lightning fast evolution.

One side question anyone else having trouble keeping all the characters straight. I turbo watched the first 1.5 seasons so it was easier to keep track in a marathon.

I know the numerous main characters but occasionally find myself lost with secondary and tertiary characters this season. I would say my biggest problem is with the people in the north.

I am very interested in seeing where Maegery goes (don't know spelling of her name). She could have an interesting road and I hope it ends poorly for Joffrey.

Anyone else think Joffrey should become an official insult? "Stop being a Joffrey" or "Your such a Joffrey".


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

marksman said:


> Anyone else think Joffrey should become an official insult? "Stop being a Joffrey" or "Your such a Joffrey".


What Would Joffrey Do?


----------



## jasrub (May 9, 2008)

It sure doesn't help that they seem to pick actors that are very similar to each other in looks.

I always seem to get Robb and Theon mixed up.



marksman said:


> One side question anyone else having trouble keeping all the characters straight. I turbo watched the first 1.5 seasons so it was easier to keep track in a marathon.
> 
> I know the numerous main characters but occasionally find myself lost with secondary and tertiary characters this season. I would say my biggest problem is with the people in the north.


----------



## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

Watched this episode last night. Really great episode.

I'm sure everyone had been thinking that she could really speak the language of the slave master. That she understood what he was saying the entire time. I think we all assumed that she wasn't really giving away a dragon. So, it kinda ended how I figured it would, but it was so amazing to see. I watched the last couple minutes of the episode 3 times. Awesome!!!


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

jasrub said:


> It sure doesn't help that they seem to pick actors that are very similar to each other in looks.
> 
> I always seem to get Robb and Theon mixed up.


I don't see the Robb/Theon resemblance (Theon looks like a rat), but at first I did mix up Robb and Jon Snow.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Jstkiddn said:


> I don't see the Robb/Theon resemblance (Theon looks like a rat), but at first I did mix up Robb and Jon Snow.


Same. Both are also attractive where I don't think Theon is at all.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Robb is Disney's Prince Charming. Theon is Quasimodo without the hump. Where's the confusion?


----------



## stichnot (Dec 18, 2004)

grey ghost said:


> Is the wizard in the box something new that Varys has just come into possession of or has he been keeping his as a pet for a while? I can't imagine being able to keep something like that quiet this whole time.


Upon opening the box, Varys says, "Hello, my old friend. It's been a long time." Sounds like he just came into possession.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

marksman said:


> One side question anyone else having trouble keeping all the characters straight. I turbo watched the first 1.5 seasons so it was easier to keep track in a marathon.


Oh yeah, they mix me up to.

I sometimes feel I need to be watching a pop-up video version where the first time most charactors appear in an episode it pops up a little "you last saw them doing X at Y", or "she's only been talked about, not seen, before this", or even "he's totally new, stop trying to rack your brain for info on him"


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

stichnot said:


> Upon opening the box, Varys says, "Hello, my old friend. It's been a long time." Sounds like he just came into possession.


Maybe the wizard is gagged with Varys's ballsack.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> I don't see the Robb/Theon resemblance (Theon looks like a rat), but at first I did mix up Robb and Jon Snow.


As half-brothers they should look alike. I was actually rather surprised at how well they cast that that the brothers would look so similar.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Next on GoT: Varys ships the crate off to the X cross guys for final enjoyment and disposal.


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> Oh yeah, they mix me up to.
> 
> I sometimes feel I need to be watching a pop-up video version where the first time most charactors appear in an episode it pops up a little "you last saw them doing X at Y", or "she's only been talked about, not seen, before this", or even "he's totally new, stop trying to rack your brain for info on him"


Some of that kind of info will show up on the HBOGo frames. Not really pop-up video style, which would be so sweet! but it will give you a bit of reference.
Thanks to Danterner for pointing out this little watcher tool. :up:


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

Ereth said:


> As half-brothers they should look alike. I was actually rather surprised at how well they cast that that the brothers would look so similar.


I don't think they are half-brothers, but I haven't read the books. I think Jon Snow is a Baratheon.


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## jeff92k7 (Jan 18, 2006)

Ereth said:


> As half-brothers they should look alike. I was actually rather surprised at how well they cast that that the brothers would look so similar.


Umm.... I have not read the books, and have only watched the show, but I feel I should probably spoiler my response to this....



Spoiler



Are you sure you want to read this?


Spoiler



Are you really sure you want to read this?


Spoiler



How do you know that they are half-brothers? That has been implied by certain characters, but we really know nothing of the mother; and the father, Ned Stark, has never actually said that Jon Snow is his son. He's only said that "you are my blood", which could mean that he is related, but not actually his own son.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Demandred said:


> I don't think they are half-brothers, but I haven't read the books. I think Jon Snow is a Baratheon.


Why would you think that?

He is Ned's son from another woman. Ned even talked about it with the king when they were alone. There was never a hint of Ned taking the blame for him. And it's not like the guy had a problem with having bastards!

Robb and Jon Snow are half-brothers. At this point, it's a complete and undisputed fact.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Why would you think that?
> 
> He is Ned's son from another woman. Ned even talked about it with the king when they were alone. There was never a hint of Ned taking the blame for him. And it's not like the guy had a problem with having bastards!
> 
> Robb and Jon Snow are half-brothers. At this point, it's a complete and undisputed fact.


I don't think that anything was stated that made it as complete and undisputed as you seem to recall.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jakerock said:


> I don't think that anything was stated that made it as complete and undisputed as you seem to recall.


How so?

Ned said he was his. Ned and the king, on the way to King's Landing, talked about the war, the girl Ned banged, and Jon Snow being the baby. Ned and Cat, on different occasions and to each other, talked about Ned coming back from the war with Jon Snow. Ned's brother and all the Stark boys and girls have stated on several occasions that Jon is Ned's son and a bastard.

How unequivocal do you need?


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I understand what you're saying and why you think that. I just don't agree that Ned admitted as much as you think he did but I tend to be a stickler for exactly what people said vs. what can easily be inferred (but perhaps shouldn't be). So I could be wrong.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Maybe the wizard is gagged with Varys's ballsack.


Nah. That was BBQ'd...maybe fed to the dogs.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

To be clear, I am in no way arguing that Ned hasn't passed Jon off as his bastard. But there a many times when things are said that indicate that things are not as clear cut as that story. I don't believe that is just to confuse things unnecessarily.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

jeff92k7 said:


> Umm.... I have not read the books, and have only watched the show, but I feel I should probably spoiler my response to this....
> 
> * SPOILER *[/SPOILER][/SPOILER]


You talked me out of it about three spoiler tags in. Lol.


----------



## jeff92k7 (Jan 18, 2006)

Jstkiddn said:


> You talked me out of it about three spoiler tags in. Lol.


LOL. I basically said the same thing that others have been arguing about in the last few posts. They just didn't feel the need to spoiler tag their posts, I guess.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

jeff92k7 said:


> LOL. I basically said the same thing that others have been arguing about in the last few posts. They just didn't feel the need to spoiler tag their posts, I guess.


It is only a spoiler if you have some information not from the show that leads you to your hypothesis.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

In reference to John's mother--it's funny in the books (not a huge spoiler)


Spoiler



I've read all 5 books, and it seems that every few chapters someone claims that he knew someone who knew the girl who was John's mother, and they are all different and in totally different places. That's really suspicious right there.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Book readers:

The show has not delved into the subject of Jon Snow's parentage quite as much as the books.



Spoiler



Including Jakerock's line about Ned never having claimed Jon as his son. jakerock, that line is from the book only. Refer to the 1st season 2nd episode where Ned in fact refers to Jon as being his son.



Let's be very careful about bringing a topic that has been discussed at length outside of the TV show to the TV show thread.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I just re watched the specific episode that you are referring to and Ned doesn't say that Jon is his son. 

The king refers to "the mother of your bastard". Ned responds. I agree that makes it sound pretty darn obvious that Jon is Ned's son if you assume that Ned is literally admitting that Jon is his son outside of marriage instead of by taking on Jon he has taken him to be his bastard. Which could very well be me stretching things too far. But I believe that it was stated that way and Ned ducks the question for a reason. (Also I'm assuming that by definition if Jon isn't Ned's son that he's lying about it all the time so why would this time be different.)

But things are very complicated in Westeros and I don't think that the other tid bits we are given like when Ned specifically says that Jon's blood is family (vs just saying he's his son) are done simply to give Sean Bean an extra line to speak.

As I said I could very well be wrong.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

jakerock said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again I am spoilering because the topic leans more heavily on book than show knowledge, but



Spoiler



The quote I was talking about in that episode is between Ned and Jon, and it seems I am not recalling it correctly either. Ned says you may not have my name, but you have my blood. So I was wrong in my recalling. Other than that line, the show has not touched on the topic. And for good reason. With the exception of a conversation that happens in the third book that I don't think will be on the show, most of the people who have revealed information pertaining to Jon Snow's parentage have been from thoughts (mostly Ned's) that people had.

Plus if the R+L theory is correct, then the scenes from Dany's time in the house of the undying left out some useful content.

In later books there are a few more actual conversations about the topic, but with all the information that the show has to squeeze in, I just don't see the matter being a big deal in the show like the fans of the books have made it outside of the show.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I'm horrible at remembering what was in the books and the show. I'm not sure that either of them makes a big deal about it in reality. Yes readers have.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Of course, it might be a big deal in book 7 when that show airs in 2018.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Demandred said:


> I don't think they are half-brothers, but I haven't read the books. I think Jon Snow is a Baratheon.


There is much speculation about Jon Snows parentage, I'll grant you.

Perhaps I should have been more precise in pointing out that they are related by blood.

But as far as the world is concerned they are half-brothers, and it's not surprising they look alike, is the only point I was making.

Quibbling with that because of speculation on as-yet-unrevealed parentage is missing the point entirely.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I'm so confused. Someone want to either spoilerize the answer or PM me if spoiler isn't appropriate in this thread...but now I must know....according to the books is he or is he not the biological child of Ned Stark? Or do we not know for sure? Is it even a question?


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> I'm so confused. Someone want to either spoilerize the answer or PM me if spoiler isn't appropriate in this thread...but now I must know....according to the books is he or is he not the biological child of Ned Stark? Or do we not know for sure? Is it even a question?


PM sent.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> I'm so confused. Someone want to either spoilerize the answer or PM me if spoiler isn't appropriate in this thread...but now I must know....according to the books is he or is he not the biological child of Ned Stark? Or do we not know for sure? Is it even a question?


Here is what I know which isn't much and not much of a spoiler given how little I know.



Spoiler



Nobody knows but there are a lot of book readers who think that it Ned isn't his father and lots of theories. There isn't much in the books that indicate anything significant that I remember. Except that in the books too, I think GRR Martin indicates things that make you wonder a little bit.


----------



## TVgod (Apr 27, 2013)

This show isn't that great. people think its awesome it's merely ok. I mean seriuosly I could name 10 shows that are better then this in any genre


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

TVgod said:


> This show isn't that great. people think its awesome it's merely ok. I mean seriuosly I could name 10 shows that are better then this in any genre


Okay, epic fantasy, 10 shows, go!


----------



## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

jakerock said:


> I understand what you're saying and why you think that. I just don't agree that Ned admitted as much as you think he did but I tend to be a stickler for exactly what people said vs. what can easily be inferred (but perhaps shouldn't be). So I could be wrong.


JakeRock, in Season 1 when Ned went out to see Jon Snow off(when he went to the wall), he said "You may not have my name, but you have my blood". Here is the clip from that moment. Starks have been manning the walls
Cat, a couple of episodes ago, just told Rob's wife the whole story Ned bringing Jon to Winterfell as a baby. She said specifically that she prayed to the gods that Jon would survive smallpox and, if he did, she was going to tell Ned to give Jon his name.

Sorry, but he's the child of Ned and some woman Ned met when he was off fighting. King Robert and Ned spoke of her in Season 1 when they were reminiscing under the tree.

No offense mean, but you're just wrong on this one. He's a Stark


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

grey ghost said:


> Sorry, but he's the child of Ned and some woman Ned met when he was off fighting. King Robert and Ned spoke of her in Season 1 when they were reminiscing under the tree.


In that scene King Robert asks who the woman was that made Ned Stark forget his wedding vows, Ned avoided the question. We don't know why he avoided the question. Either Ned's ashamed, or there's something else going on. He also never actually says Jon Snow is from him, just his blood. Ned Stark had a brother and a sister. It's enough to question things, but not enough to say that Ned is or isn't the father.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I really don't think it's as ambiguous as some of you do, but it bears reminding that


Spoiler



by virtue of his surname - Snow - we know that Jon is a bastard of a noble house of the North. Bastards that are not borne of at least half noble blood are given no surname at all. I guess you could believe that Ned gave him that surname as part of this vague conspiracy, but that would see, to go against his character to outright lie like that.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I really don't think it's as ambiguous as some of you do, but it bears reminding that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


To reply to your spoiler in another spoiler...


Spoiler



It's also against his oh-so-honorable character to have fathered a bastard in the first place. So much so that it's the one blemish that everyone comments on.

You are left with (a) he fathered a bastard shortly after marrying Caitlin Tully, or (b) he lied about who the bastard is.

Either choice is a problem for Ned Starks character.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jakerock said:


> But I believe that it was stated that way and Ned ducks the question for a reason. (


Except he does't duck the question. Robert asks him the name, and Ned responds "Wylla". Robert says "You never did tell me what she looks like" and Ned responds "Nor will I". He's obviously embarassed about the whole thing and is not interested in gloating about it by telling Robert how big her **** were or whatever (the way Robert was just gloating over his whore Bessie). Robert was proud of his infidelities. Ned is not.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

The story will (or won't) tell us who Jon's parents are. I certainly don't know. What I do know is that I'm not as certain as those of you who "know" the answer are.

Ned is is either lying (for unknown reasons) about Jon being his son or he cheated on Cat and fathered a boy while off at war and somehow came back with him with out anyone at home or way knowing what the heck was going on until he showed up. Ned certainly wants everyone to believe that Jon is his son and so listening to him isn't the most reliable source of information but he certainly could be telling the absolute truth. 

It is entirely possible that we won't learn anything more about it in which case I'd have to say that him being Ned's bastard son is the really the simplest solution (and irrelevant at that point if it doesn't become a plot point).


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

What you have are two mediums for the same story. One has given more detail on the topic but not enough for anyone to know about Jon Snow's mom (or Dad). The TV show has brushed on the topic so _lightly_ that I think only book readers would think it have any significance. Which is again why i caution bringing the topic up in the show thread. It really belongs over in the book readers thread.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> What you have are two mediums for the same story. One has given more detail on the topic but not enough for anyone to know about Jon Snow's mom (or Dad). The TV show has brushed on the topic so _lightly_ that I think only book readers would think it have any significance. Which is again why i caution bringing the topic up in the show thread. It really belongs over in the book readers thread.


True and fair enough. I got caught up when someone said (in the context of the show) that it was stated as fact. In my _opinion_ even in the show there is room for doubt (but my doubt isn't objective and can't be distanced from what I foggily remember from the books).


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

On a related subject, I suddenly feel the need to express my frustration that soon this season will be over and that (I hope this isn't a spoiler to anyone) he's writing books so slowly at this point that we may never see the end of the series (books or shows). ARG!!!


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

jakerock said:


> On a related subject, I suddenly feel the need to express my frustration that soon this season will be over and that (I hope this isn't a spoiler to anyone) he's writing books so slowly at this point that we may never see the end of the series (books or shows). ARG!!!


Not an issue. Martin may never finish the books, but if the prospects for the HBO show remain good, they will finish the series. That may actually be a good thing, since Martin seems to have (temporarily? permanently?) lost the thread of the story. Maybe the HBO writers can produce a better ending than Martin can.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Not an issue. Martin may never finish the books, but if the prospects for the HBO show remain good, they will finish the series. That may actually be a good thing, since Martin seems to have (temporarily? permanently?) lost the thread of the story. Maybe the HBO writers can produce a better ending than Martin can.


I guess that is a positive way of looking at it. Of course it could just end up being a repeat of Deadwood.

Since I'm heavily invested in the story I'd really like him to finish it. Having said that the series has done an excellent job of keeping me (as a reader) very happy with how closely they've followed the themes and movements (if not the specific story details).

I'd really like him to get his act together, wrap this up in another few books in the next five years and let me get on with my life.


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## rorrim (Jun 21, 2005)

john4200 said:


> Okay, epic fantasy, 10 shows, go!


In a list of 10, "Hawk the Slayer" will always show up. And that should be the best proof that there are not 10 epic fantasy shows/movies better than Game of Thrones


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

rorrim said:


> In a list of 10, "Hawk the Slayer" will always show up. And that should be the best proof that there are not 10 epic fantasy shows/movies better than Game of Thrones


I had to look that up on IMDB. Evil Voltan, huh?


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## rorrim (Jun 21, 2005)

john4200 said:


> I had to look that up on IMDB. Evil Voltan, huh?


By looking it up on IMDB, you are one step away from seeing a truly horrific fantasy movie. Resist the temptation and forget that I mentioned it


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

jakerock said:


> On a related subject, I suddenly feel the need to express my frustration that soon this season will be over and that (I hope this isn't a spoiler to anyone) he's writing books so slowly at this point that we may never see the end of the series (books or shows). ARG!!!


One point to add.. according to the producers, Martin has already told them how it ends. So even if they catch up to him, they have a roadmap of where to go. It might be interesting to see the book come out AFTER the show, with greater details.

I suppose I should also say that Martin has made a point that the two medium are telling somewhat different stories. Characters who are dead on the TV show are very much alive in the books and at least one will have a significant role in the next book. Yet that character being dead on TV means that story will have to change for the TV show.

So we should expect differences.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ereth said:


> One point to add.. according to the producers, Martin has already told them how it ends. So even if they catch up to him, they have a roadmap of where to go. It might be interesting to see the book come out AFTER the show, with greater details.


It could end up like Scott Pilgrim, where the movie ended up being written before O'Malley finished the comics & they couldn't wait for him any more. He told them how it ended, and they then changed the ending anyway (and then I believe _he _changed _his _ending as well).


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jakerock said:


> On a related subject, I suddenly feel the need to express my frustration that soon this season will be over and that (I hope this isn't a spoiler to anyone) he's writing books so slowly at this point that we may never see the end of the series (books or shows). ARG!!!


In addition to what's been said, both S3 and S4 of the show will cover the plot from the third book, so that buys GRRM another year to get the books done. And they could do two seasons for future books as well.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

john4200 said:


> Not an issue. Martin may never finish the books, but if the prospects for the HBO show remain good, they will finish the series. That may actually be a good thing, since Martin seems to have (temporarily? permanently?) lost the thread of the story. Maybe the HBO writers can produce a better ending than Martin can.


I have faith in Martin. His books are awesome and I'm sure he knows what ending he's working toward. That said, I would have no problem with the TV show getting ahead of the books as long as both eventually finish. While book 5 isn't as good as the first 3, I wouldn't say he's lost the thread of the story. He's just added a few more threads in there.



Ereth said:


> I suppose I should also say that Martin has made a point that the two medium are telling somewhat different stories. Characters who are dead on the TV show are very much alive in the books and at least one will have a significant role in the next book. Yet that character being dead on TV means that story will have to change for the TV show.
> 
> So we should expect differences.


Who's dead on the show and not in the books? I can't think of anyone.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I have faith in Martin. His books are awesome and I'm sure he knows what ending he's working toward.


I've never been worried about the ending. I just get the feeling he's gotten mired down in the middle. (Although the last book finally gives the impression that he's starting to get the pieces in place.)


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

stellie93 said:


> I have faith in Martin. His books are awesome and I'm sure he knows what ending he's working toward. That said, I would have no problem with the TV show getting ahead of the books as long as both eventually finish. While book 5 isn't as good as the first 3, I wouldn't say he's lost the thread of the story. He's just added a few more threads in there.


He wrote in his blog, repeatedly, that there was a knot that he could not work out. So he certainly lost the thread at one point, by his own admission. Of course, he came up with some sort of resolution, but I think I am not alone in finding it unsatisfactory in some ways.

However, all of that is secondary to the fact that Martin is taking many *years* to finish each book, and he is old, and overweight. Even if he is mentally capable of finishing the books, who knows when his body may fail him?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jakerock said:


> True and fair enough. I got caught up when someone said (in the context of the show) that it was stated as fact. In my _opinion_ even in the show there is room for doubt (but my doubt isn't objective and can't be distanced from what I foggily remember from the books).


That someone is me! 

I probably didn't express myself as well as I wanted. As far as the show is concerned, they seemed to have made it clear and moved on. What was telling, to me, was the conversation Ned and the King (blast it, I just can't remember his name) had during their "picnic".

As I understand it, both of them knew what happened. The king was fuzzy on the woman's name, but not on the details of the affair. Ned was young and clearly fell in love (and, remember, his marriage to Cat was anything but for love). If Ned was lying to everyone about Jon, he had no need to lie at that instant as the king knew the truth.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

john4200 said:


> Not an issue. Martin may never finish the books, but if the prospects for the HBO show remain good, they will finish the series. That may actually be a good thing, since Martin seems to have (temporarily? permanently?) lost the thread of the story. Maybe the HBO writers can produce a better ending than Martin can.


Martin has already said in an interview that he's told his producer how the rest of the story goes, just in case he doesn't make it to the end himself.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Who's dead on the show and not in the books? I can't think of anyone.


Spoilers I suppose are required to answer that.



Spoiler



Taken from here: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Characters_significantly_changed_between_books_and_TV_series

Before they even leave the Red Waste, Rakharo dies, decapitated by Khal Jhaqo, his severed head returned to Dany on his horse. Rakharo does not die in the books, but is alive and well throughout the Qarth storyline. Instead, the character that Jhaqo kills in this manner is one of Daenerys' handmaidens, Eroeh.

Moreover, in the books, Doreah dies of a wasting disease while crossing the Red Waste. She was always loyal to Daenerys, and at her death, Dany personally buried her, and wept as she did so. In this light, Rakharo's death may have been meant to stand in for Doreah's death (or simply, both Doreah and Eroeh). While on the subject, Mago didn't die in the books either, but instead abandoned Daenerys after Drogo's death to become the new chief lieutenant of Khal Jhaqo. Mago was killed in the TV series in an invented fight with Khal Drogo

Pyat Pree was one of the Warlocks who survived Drogon's destruction of their headquarters, and has vowed revenge against Daenerys.

Because Xaro never outright betrayed Daenerys in the books, she never locked him in his vault to (apparently) die. Moreover, Xaro actually is a fabulously wealth man in the books: there is never any hint that he has a "vault", much less, that the vault is actually empty. Xaro is alive and well in later books, along with Pyat Pree.

Daenerys' handmaiden Irri is killed in the TV series when the dragons are stolen; because they were not stolen in the books, she is alive and well in later novels.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Thanks for the info. As with most of the changes in the show, I don't see where any of these people living or dying will make much difference. I guess for the producers of the show to make changes in the interest of brevity, they do need to know Martin's plans even after book 5 to be sure to leave all the vital characters breathing. Or they could just bring them back from the dead.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Well the one he mentioned in an interview that will be a significant difference between the TV show and the books is:



Spoiler



Khal Drogos right hand man Mago, who was killed in the TV show in a fight that never happened in the books. In the books he went off to take over one of the Dothraki Khals, and his Khal will be encountering, and interfering, with Daenerys in a book to be published later.

The TV show can easily skip over that, it's true, but it is a difference.


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