# Game of Thrones - "The North Remembers" - OAD 4/1/12



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Sooo much good stuff! I swear the episode started and I looked at the clock and it was 9:48 just like that. I couldn't believe how fast this episode went. So many thoughts. 

Yay for another slap to the little prick King! Can't wait for a gif of that too! 

They are not playing around killing all the Baratheon bastards, are they?? Yikes! 

Robb is bad ass. Not enough Snow. More thoughts later after I sleep. Can't wait to read everyone else's thoughts!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

So how does Renly find 100,000 men to rally to his cause when Robb can only get 20,000? his BF's money?

I really liked how many of the guards couldn't kill innocent children and how they showed them hating what is going on...a portent of things to come.

Littlefinger sure learned a valuable lesson


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## chronatog7 (Aug 26, 2004)

Great episode. I love the sharp dialogue. I love the way the introduced Grey Wolf.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

It flew by for me too. Loved it.!!


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

It did fly by. I finished the 5th book yesterday and I've found I've lost track of what happened when. So even though I know what happens, I'm still surprised.

It was a great episode. They have done such a great job bringing it all to the screen.

tk


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## chronatog7 (Aug 26, 2004)

My only fear is, will they have enough time to condense the story of the second book into 10 hours?


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Too short! WAY too short! I'm ready for the next episode already. It seemed like we just barely had time to even introduce the characters and it was over!

Definitely left me wanting more!


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Anubys said:


> So how does Renly find 100,000 men to rally to his cause when Robb can only get 20,000? his BF's money?
> 
> I really liked how many of the guards couldn't kill innocent children and how they showed them hating what is going on...a portent of things to come.
> 
> Littlefinger sure learned a valuable lesson


I kind of took it that Renly always had a 100,000 men but didn't need them until Ned told him about Joffrey's true father.

Kind of seems like the Lannisters and Joffrey cannot even come close to winning if the Starks and Bathereons team up. Only thing is will the Bathereons be OK with the Starks wanting their own kingdom or will they want them to "fall in line". I guess when I don't even know who the true heir to the throne is they can't really either.

In the title sequence they showed a new kingdom, dragon...something. Is that something new, the old Tarregeryn kingdom or the iron islands?

When the kings men catch up with the people heading to the wall will they realize Aryana is a girl?

(please forgive me of all the name misspellings)


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Dragonstone. It's where Stannis Baratheon lives.

Here's a Wiki entry edited to remove events that have not yet occurred on the TV show, though some of this history has not yet been revealed so I'll spoiler it anyway.:


Spoiler



A century or so before the Doom of Valyria, House Targaryen, a noble Valyrian house, took possession of the island and built a castle upon it, which became the westernmost outpost of the Valyrian Freehold. The castle towers were shaped by Valyrian magic to look like dragons, giving it the name Dragonstone. Roughly a century after the Doom, Aegon I conquered six of the seven kingdoms of Westeros. He established the city of King's Landing where he first made landfall at the mouth of the Blackwater Rush. King's Landing became the capital and Dragonstone became the seat of the heir apparent, who was styled Prince of Dragonstone.

During Robert's Rebellion, the castle became the last haven of the remaining Targaryens. Rhaella and Viserys were evacuated there before King's Landing fell to the rebels. Rhaella gave birth to Daenerys during a terrific storm and died shortly afterwards. As rebel forces prepared to lay siege to Dragonstone, the last scions of House Targaryen fled the castle for Braavos with the help of Ser Willem Darry.

After the war, the castle passed to Stannis Baratheon. Stannis resented the castle because its lands were far poorer than those of Storm's End, which he felt was his due as heir of House Baratheon. He considered the castle to be a insult, but Robert felt a strong leader should be placed in the old Targaryen seat.



Short version: The Targaryens owned it, Robert took it away from them during the rebellion and placed his brother there to hold it. Daenerys was born there as the Targaryens were fleeing.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Looks like Jaime's gonna need a change of underwear... 


Ereth said:


> Short version: The Targaryens owned it, Robert took it away from them during the rebellion and placed his brother there to hold it. Daenerys was born there as the Targaryens were fleeing.


And not only owned it...it was the first land in Westeros they held, and it was the foothold from which they conquered the Seven Kingdoms. It has enormous symbolic value.

By the way, is it me or did they reveal that summer is over much later in the books?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm glad they decided to CGI the Direwolves. Last year, the tiny little dogs were just out of place and silly.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> By the way, is it me or did they reveal that summer is over much later in the books?





Spoiler



In the Prologue of A Clash of Kings, a white raven has arrived at Dragonstone from the Citadel


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

chronatog7 said:


> My only fear is, will they have enough time to condense the story of the second book into 10 hours?


The producers have mentioned that the series won't follow the books anymore in "one season per book" fashion, starting with this season.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Thought it was a an excellent setup for an awesome season. I'll have to rewatch it later this week.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Loved it! I can feel the wheels starting to turn already... can't wait.

I thought they needed to do more to introduce the Onion Knight. I think people are going to be a bit lost later on with him ("wait, who's that guy?"). We'll see, maybe they'll do it in future episodes.

It has to be just so hard to figure out how to get these books to fit. Even to be limited to telling the story in one-hour chunks seems like it would be hard, much less only 10 of them... it seems like you'd want to have 90 min or even 2 hours to be able to not feel rushed.


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## chronatog7 (Aug 26, 2004)

I have to say they had some great scenes on this episode. The best ones include Stannis redaction of the letter while the table of westeros is on the scene, the kid cleaning the floor while littlerfinger craps his pants while Cercei says "power is power" and finally the disgust of the city watch solder when they are killing the babies.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

HBO has a new season 2 viewers guide available
http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season2/

Did I miss mention of it last season, or is this the first time we learn that there out outposts north of the wall?

Robb mentioned something about needing ships to reach Kings Landing. Why? We see it can be reached by land. Is it just quicker/safer to go by ship?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Littlefinger sure learned a valuable lesson


Yes! I forgot to mention that. He's so smug all the time. I do love the character and pretty much hate Cersei but he kind of deserved that. If I were her, I might have done the same.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Looks like Jaime's gonna need a change of underwear...


They got me, I honestly thought for a second they were going to kill him. I was thinking to myself how stupid that was and they would never get Sansa back now. I'm telling you, after Ned's beheading I will probably fall for all their cop outs like this.



madscientist said:


> I thought they needed to do more to introduce the Onion Knight. I think people are going to be a bit lost later on with him ("wait, who's that guy?"). We'll see, maybe they'll do it in future episodes.


People were doing that the first half of season 1. Why should this one be any different? 



chronatog7 said:


> I have to say they had some great scenes on this episode. The best ones include Stannis redaction of the letter while the table of westeros is on the scene, the kid cleaning the floor while littlerfinger craps his pants while Cercei says "power is power" and finally *the disgust of the city watch solder when they are killing the babies.*


Yeah that was bad. Them walking holding that baby upside down was just gross.

I am so ready for the next one already. So mad how fast the hour went. Today on the way to work I was just replaying it all in my head and I can't wait to get home and watch it again!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> So how does Renly find 100,000 men to rally to his cause when Robb can only get 20,000? his BF's money?


Looking at the HBO viewer guide I just posted, where they show the territories of the 4 kings, you can see that Renly's kingdon is a large and well populated area of land. Lots of cities on the map. While the north is bigger, it doesn't seem to have as much in it. I don't know if that's the reason, but it would make sense to me. Sort of like a US vs Canada thing...Canada has about a third more land area than the US, but only about 10-15% as large of a population.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Yes! I forgot to mention that. He's so smug all the time. I do love the character and pretty much hate Cersei but he kind of deserved that. If I were her, I might have done the same.


The problem is, it also shows that she just doesn't have a clue how to run a country. Alienating the guy who pays the bills in a nearly-bankrupt kingdom is just about the stupidest thing you could do (behind not slapping Joffrey much more often).

It will be interesting to see how Tyrion responds to the nearly-impossible challenge of keeping the Lannisters in line and on top.

(Watching last night, I couldn't help but wonder if Peter Dinklage, when he decided he wanted to go into acting as a career, even dared _fantasize _that some day he'd have a role like this?)


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

A Lannister ordering the butchering of children. Seems to be a family trend. And for the same reasons, really, to prevent any possible claims to the throne. 

How cold do you have to be to give that order, though?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The problem is, it also shows that she just doesn't have a clue how to run a country. Alienating the guy who pays the bills in a nearly-bankrupt kingdom is just about the stupidest thing you could do (behind not slapping Joffrey much more often).
> 
> It will be interesting to see how Tyrion responds to the nearly-impossible challenge of keeping the Lannisters in line and on top.
> 
> (Watching last night, I couldn't help but wonder if Peter Dinklage, when he decided he wanted to go into acting as a career, even dared _fantasize _that some day he'd have a role like this?)


I don't think she alienated him. He's a weasel. He'd sell his own mother if the price was right. I think she just had to show him he doesn't know everything and that he doesn't run the show. I think he'll be loyal to her and Joffrey for as long as it's in his best interest to do so just like always. And yes, everyone needs to take turns slapping Joffrey around. How fun would it be for them to just go back and forth and him to get slapped once every episode. Hee!

I adore Tyrion, he and Snow are my favorite characters. I just wish Tyrion wasn't a Lannister. He's the family's only redeeming character IMO. I'm sure Peter didn't dream of a role like this but I'm sure glad he found it. He's just amazing.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Onion Knight? what the heck is that?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Onion Knight? what the heck is that?


Unless I'm mistaken he was the guy with Stannis that looks like "The Professional"


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Onion Knight? what the heck is that?


Yeah, same question. Did someone just post a spoiler, or was that a name I missed, perhaps for one of the knights in Joffrey's tournament.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The problem is, it also shows that she just doesn't have a clue how to run a country. Alienating the guy who pays the bills in a nearly-bankrupt kingdom is just about the stupidest thing you could do (behind not slapping Joffrey much more often).


Well, the Lannisters are rather famous for having more money than anybody so Cersei probably thinks Littlefinger isn't quite that important with a Lannister in charge.

I agree with your assessment of her ability, of course. Cersei wants power for the sake of being powerful. It's power itself that draws her. Now that she has it, she's wholly ill-equipped to deal with it.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Yeah, same question. Did someone just post a spoiler, or was that a name I missed, perhaps for one of the knights in Joffrey's tournament.


He picked up the sword on the beach after the bonfire burning the old gods on Dragonstone. The Maester referred to him then as "Onion Knight". Those of us who have read the books know why. I presume the rest of you will learn later so I won't spoil it. He tried to stop the Maester from attempting to poison the red woman, but obviously didn't succeed.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> He picked up the sword on the beach after the bonfire burning the old gods on Dragonstone. The Maester referred to him then as "Onion Knight". Those of us who have read the books know why. I presume the rest of you will learn later so I won't spoil it. He tried to stop the Maester from attempting to poison the red woman, but obviously didn't succeed.


Thanks. I was watching this from a download, and it didn't have subtitles, and I was trying to keep the volume down since it was late.

Speaking of the poisoning, did I miss something? I though the guy dropped the little pill in his own glass, then took a drink from it before handing it to the lady, and she drank from it but only he died. Was she immune to the poison, or was I just mixed up.

Edit: 
Even though it hasn't yet been revealed, the viewers guide explains why he has the name "onion knight".

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season2/#!/guide/houses/sbaratheon/davos-seaworth/


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> Speaking of the poisoning, did I miss something? I though the guy dropped the little pill in his own glass, then took a drink from it before handing it to the lady, and she drank from it but only he died. *Was she immune to the poison*, or was I just mixed up.


That's what I took from it.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Ereth said:


> He picked up the sword on the beach after the bonfire burning the old gods on Dragonstone. The Maester referred to him then as "Onion Knight". Those of us who have read the books know why. I presume the rest of you will learn later so I won't spoil it. He tried to stop the Maester from attempting to poison the red woman, but obviously didn't succeed.


:up:
So I was right then. Glad I am keeping up!


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

She was immune to the poison.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

More interestingly, to me, was the fact that it was pretty clear she knew it was poisoned before she drank from it. They stress that more in the book, but even in the show, watch her eyes. She looks at the Maester the entire time, and she drinks fully, even though he's already obviously dying before she takes the first sip. She's sending a message there.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Thanks for posting the viewer guide. I need to be able to keep track of everything  This show is sooooooooo well done.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

This. This. This. 


> "The North Remembers" felt like a reunion of sorts, bouncing us around between landscapes like we were spinning a globe and dropping in on old friends we met during a year-long, world-traversing excursion. The scope of Season 2 feels massive (the locations the production team found are ridiculously awesome), yet the stories from the frigid north and the scalding south feel even more intimate than they did before. Many of the places may feel new, but the characters are familiar. We got the sense that we should be cheering when Tyrion strolled onto the screen for the first time (and I did), that Dany trudging through the desert was worth a round of applause (standing O), that an emboldened Robb was owed a respectful bending of the knee (he's got a kingly air about him now, doesn't he?).


Source

I really did love that they kept showing the comet and then back to another location. I love it when they do that with the map too. And he nails my thought on Robb. Overnight he became a King, in name and attitude. Love it.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

In case any non-book viewers missed it, the table that Stannis et al. were sitting around when the Maester dies is a big piece of wood shaped like Westeros. I thought the production company did a great job with it.

It's also impressive how well they use sigils, flags, and such to help indicate where we are and who we're with. Colors too of course.

I like that we get to see more of the Joffrey/Cersei relationship in the show as opposed to the books. Think she realizes she didn't raise him quite right?

Please, more Tyrion and Cersei scenes. I love those.

Direwolves!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Sorry if my numerous posts bug anyone! I can't help it. I keep reading reviews and remembering things I wanted to comment on! 

Tyrion saying to Cercei "It must be hard for you.. to be the disappointing child." with that little smirk made me squee.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> (Watching last night, I couldn't help but wonder if Peter Dinklage, when he decided he wanted to go into acting as a career, even dared _fantasize _that some day he'd have a role like this?)


https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/magazine/peter-dinklage-was-smart-to-say-no.html?_r=1&hpw


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Bob Coxner said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/magazine/peter-dinklage-was-smart-to-say-no.html?_r=1&hpw


Ha! I just read that entire article and was coming to post it. GREAT read.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

To me, watching this show is just like watching "Lost"....I absolutely love every second but I doubt I get half of what's going on. LOL


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

pmyers said:


> To me, watching this show is just like watching "Lost"....I absolutely love every second but I doubt I get half of what's going on. LOL


That's one reason I bought the first two books. Reading the first book helped me get a handle on Season 1.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

pmyers said:


> To me, watching this show is just like watching "Lost"....I absolutely love every second but I doubt I get half of what's going on. LOL


I guess not all of us can be so quick on the draw, eh? 

<runs>


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't think she alienated him. He's a weasel. He'd sell his own mother if the price was right.


But at this point, I don't think the price would have to be right. He'd do anything to get rid of her, just to have somebody in place who is more...appreciative of his talents. I think in that scene, he knew exactly where both of them stood, and didn't need the lesson. She's the one who didn't understand.

Cersei (and Joffrey) has this odd belief that being king means you can get away with anything. Which is pretty bizarre, considering how her son became king, and how her husband became king.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ereth said:


> More interestingly, to me, was the fact that it was pretty clear she knew it was poisoned before she drank from it. They stress that more in the book, but even in the show, watch her eyes. She looks at the Maester the entire time, and she drinks fully, even though he's already obviously dying before she takes the first sip. She's sending a message there.


YES! That was very well done by the actors and very well directed. She was amused, waited for him to show her that he will die, then drank from it before he died just to make him think that he won. She is evil.

Ok, so now I know who the onion knight is. I recognize the actor. Have we seen him before in GOT or do I just recognize him because he's been in other shows and movies?


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Cersei (and Joffrey) has this odd belief that being king means you can get away with anything. Which is pretty bizarre, considering how her son became king, and how her husband became king.


They both need more slapping.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Ok, so now I know who the onion knight is. I recognize the actor. Have we seen him before in GOT or do I just recognize him because he's been in other shows and movies?


He was not in Season 1


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Ok, so now I know who the onion knight is. I recognize the actor. Have we seen him before in GOT or do I just recognize him because he's been in other shows and movies?


As I said before, you probably think he looks like Jean Reno (The Professional)


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Oh and....


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> As I said before, you probably think he looks like Jean Reno (The Professional)


Personally, I think he looks a lot like Liam Cunningham, who was recently the star of the British show Outcasts...


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But at this point, I don't think the price would have to be right. He'd do anything to get rid of her, just to have somebody in place who is more...appreciative of his talents. I think in that scene, he knew exactly where both of them stood, and didn't need the lesson. She's the one who didn't understand.


Except maybe next time she gets a whiff of anything she doesn't like he'll get his throat slit. It was clear he didn't quite understand even "friendly" advice would result in such drastic measures.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Here's a question: Who knows about Joffery's true parentage? I suspect Tyrion does, Cat and John and the Baratheons probably do as well. But what about Tywin? Was sending Circe and Jamie to King's landing part of a secret master plan for Lannester domination? Did he suspect the depth of feelings between them? 
And the other question is which is Circe's bigger crime? Stepping out in the king or fathering children with her brother?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Family said:


> Except maybe next time she gets a whiff of anything she doesn't like he'll get his throat slit. It was clear he didn't quite understand even "friendly" advice would result in such drastic measures.


But he knows how to play the game, and she clearly doesn't.

She won't even get a whiff. She'll just wonder why everything is collapsing around her.

(Which is why Pops sent Tyrion to take charge. Clearly, Sis isn't up to the job.)


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But he knows how to play the game, and she clearly doesn't.
> 
> She won't even get a whiff. She'll just wonder why everything is collapsing around her.
> 
> (Which is why Pops sent Tyrion to take charge. Clearly, Sis isn't up to the job.)


He does know how to play the game, but I don't think he realized just how much she didn't before this or he wouldn't have offered any advice.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Personally, I think he looks a lot like Liam Cunningham, who was recently the star of the British show Outcasts...


I really hope Liam Cunningham looks like Liam Cunningham.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Personally, I think he looks a lot like Liam Cunningham, who was recently the star of the British show Outcasts...


Har har



tiassa said:


> Here's a question: Who knows about Joffery's true parentage? I suspect Tyrion does, Cat and John and the Baratheons probably do as well. But what about Tywin? Was sending Circe and Jamie to King's landing part of a secret master plan for Lannester domination? Did he suspect the depth of feelings between them?
> And the other question is which is Circe's bigger crime? Stepping out in the king or fathering children with her brother?


I'd say everyone in the entire universe has heard of his lineage by now. But only Cercei, Jamie and dead Ned know for certain, no?
And I'd say her biggest crime is not just birthing her brother's child but passing him off as Robert's and allowing him to take the throne knowing the truth.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tiassa said:


> Here's a question: Who knows about Joffery's true parentage? I suspect Tyrion does, Cat and John and the Baratheons probably do as well. But what about Tywin? Was sending Circe and Jamie to King's landing part of a secret master plan for Lannester domination? Did he suspect the depth of feelings between them?
> And the other question is which is Circe's bigger crime? Stepping out in the king or fathering children with her brother?


At this point, everyone knows. What's his name (Robert's brother, the true heir) sent word to everyone.

If you're asking who "knew", not who knows; then I suspect it was encouraged by Tywin. His discussion with Jaime the first time we saw Tywin in season 1 indicated that he at least knew about it. Tyrion certainly knew, since he alluded as much when he told Ceirse and Jaime that the kid didn't die from the fall. Cierse even indicated that the inter-breading is encouraged between the lannisters (albeit secretly) to keep the lineage strong when Ned confronted her.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Family said:


> He does know how to play the game, but I don't think he realized just how much she didn't before this or he wouldn't have offered any advice.


Right. And now he knows what a moron she is.

Advantage: Littlefinger.

And she still doesn't.

Advantage: Littlefinger.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> At this point, everyone knows. What's his name (Robert's brother, the true heir) sent word to everyone.
> 
> If you're asking who "knew", not who knows; then I suspect it was encouraged by Tywin. His discussion with Jaime the first time we saw Tywin in season 1 indicated that he at least knew about it. Tyrion certainly knew, since he alluded as much when he told Ceirse and Jaime that the kid didn't die from the fall. Cierse even indicated that the inter-breading is encouraged between the lannisters (albeit secretly) to keep the lineage strong when Ned confronted her.


No, you're wrong. They might be correct but none of them _know _this. It's only gossip and hearsay at this point. Only the actual parents and Ned (because Cercei confessed it to him) know for certain.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I've read the books so in terms of the psychology of Cersei vs Littlefinger here's how they think. I'll put this in spoilers but in terms of scenes I'll only discuss what happened in season 1. The stuff about Cersai is from the second book, but it's from internal dialogue, "her thoughts," not actual event are interaction with another character.


Spoiler



Cersei sometimes thinks it's a shame she wasn't born with a penis, as she believes she has the same ferocity like her father that commands obedience. If she was born a male she feels she would have been the rightful heir to Casterly Rock (their home, like Winterfel is home to the Starks) and all the power and riches that comes with it. This is how she sees herself, others might see her differently.
Little Finger is more like an invisible puppet master. Remember how he fooled Ned Stark. That bit of dialogue from season 1 in his whore house where he was discussing that he he once loved a girl, fought for her favor and lost. She loved the other man (Brandon Stark) but he died during the war then she married this other man's younger brother (Eddard "Ned" Stark) instead and the she fell in love with him. He realized he could never win by fighting them, so he decided to f#ck them instead. Remember as Ned was packing to leave Kingslanding (before his altercation with Jaime and he got speared in the leg.) Little finger came by to take Ned to show him another one of Robert's bastards, this was before Ned's epiphany that all of the Baratheon children had black hair.

Let that settle in for a moment on how Littlefinger f#cked Ned Stark, and how that might come into play for Cersei.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> No, you're wrong. They might be correct but none of them _know _this. It's only gossip and hearsay at this point. Only the actual parents and Ned (because Cercei confessed it to him) know for certain.


Read my post again. I made sure I qualified all my statements  

Ok, I didn't qualify it when I talked about Tyrion; but that conversation bordered on clear cut discussion of it (to the point of Jaime wondering "sometimes I wonder whose side you're on"). And I think Tyrion knows everything!


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Anubys said:


> So how does Renly find 100,000 men to rally to his cause when Robb can only get 20,000? his BF's money?


Renly is well loved.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

mwhip said:


> Kind of seems like the Lannisters and Joffrey cannot even come close to winning if the Starks and Bathereons team up.


The Baratheons can't team up. There is a fundamental disagreement now between Stannis and Renly. Stannis is the rightful king, but Renly has taken a crown for himself because he believes that he would be a _better_ king. Renly declaring himself king is treason to Stannis.



LordKronos said:


> Speaking of the poisoning, did I miss something? I though the guy dropped the little pill in his own glass, then took a drink from it before handing it to the lady, and she drank from it but only he died. Was she immune to the poison, or was I just mixed up.


The red jewel at her neck glowed and neutralized the poison as she drank.



tiassa said:


> Here's a question: Who knows about Joffery's true parentage? I suspect Tyrion does, Cat and John and the Baratheons probably do as well. But what about Tywin? Was sending Circe and Jamie to King's landing part of a secret master plan for Lannester domination? Did he suspect the depth of feelings between them?





Spoiler



It was not a secret master plan. As I recall from the books, Tywin even tried to separate them.





> And the other question is which is Circe's bigger crime? Stepping out in the king or fathering children with her brother?


Depends on who is asking. If it's the king, the former. If it's the church, the latter.


----------



## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh and....


You just made my day


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

You can never have too many animated gifs of Joffrey getting slapped...


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Now if I remember correctly, didn't Robert give Cercei a smack last season too? Why aren't there gifs of this flying around? Because a big mean man hit a woman?? I want a gif. I'll go find that scene and make my own if I have to. I want synchronized slapping gifs of her and Joffrey!


----------



## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

DUDE_NJX said:


> The producers have mentioned that the series won't follow the books anymore in "one season per book" fashion, starting with this season.


But that goes both ways doesnt it? Could we see more than one book in a season?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Now if I remember correctly, didn't Robert give Cercei a smack last season too? Why aren't there gifs of this flying around? Because a big mean man hit a woman?? I want a gif. I'll go find that scene and make my own if I have to. I want synchronized slapping gifs of her and Joffrey!


Not touching that one. not touching that one. 

I remember being really shocked at how stupid she was being the second she slapped Joffrey. You can't slap the king in front of all these workers!


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Legion said:


> But that goes both ways doesnt it? Could we see more than one book in a season?


I think we could see _scenes_ from more than one book in a season (we did last season, after all), but as long as the books are, I don't think they are going to try to cram more than one into a single season.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Not touching that one. not touching that one.
> 
> I remember being really shocked at how stupid she was being the second she slapped Joffrey. You can't slap the king in front of all these workers!


Not that I think it would ever happen but what do you think would be the fallout if he ordered his own mother's death?


----------



## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> I think we could see _scenes_ from more than one book in a season (we did last season, after all), but as long as the books are, I don't think they are going to try to cram more than one into a single season.


But is HBO willing to foot the bill for the production (which gets more epxensive every year)? Could they add pressure to get this done in 5 season as opposed to 7?

I guess I just dont want this to end too soon.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Legion said:


> But is HBO willing to foot the bill for the production (which gets more epxensive every year)? Could they add pressure to get this done in 5 season as opposed to 7?
> 
> I guess I just dont want this to end too soon.


I don't think they are going to speed it up when there are still books to be written. They also have a winner on their hands, and they know it. I never had HBO before, but do now because of this show.

They'll foot the bill for production if it makes them money. It shouldn't get that much more expensive every year, since they don't have to worry about not killing off the main characters.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Not that I think it would ever happen but what do you think would be the fallout if he ordered his own mother's death?


I understand you didn't read the books?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I understand you didn't read the books?


No I haven't read them. I'm just speculating/pondering what one would think the fallout of such actions would be on him. He IS just a child. Would the people try to overturn him? Try to allow one of the other fighting for the crown in?


----------



## gschrock (Dec 28, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> They got me, I honestly thought for a second they were going to kill him. I was thinking to myself how stupid that was and they would never get Sansa back now. I'm telling you, after Ned's beheading I will probably fall for all their cop outs like this.


Ok, I'm spoilering this because there's probably people that would feel it's a spoiler, but personally I don't consider it much of one.



Spoiler



In this series, they'll keep you guessing. As you've seen from season 1, everyone's fair game. So if they're working on setting someone up to look like they're going to be killed, it could happen.


----------



## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> They'll foot the bill for production if it makes them money. It shouldn't get that much more expensive every year, since they don't have to worry about not killing off the main characters.


I used to think the same things about Rome and Deadwood. But they will need to build new sets, new locations, green screen and CGI (dragons) are all going to cost 2014 money, not 2012 money. Actors never get cheaper.

I just want them to do this right and I want them to finish what they start. Thats all I ask.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Wait. Are we really only getting 10 episodes per season? Nooooo! I thought 12/13 was crazy short but 10 just is not enough.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Wait. Are we really only getting 10 episodes per season? Nooooo! I thought 12/13 was crazy short but 10 just is not enough.


Agreed! Personally, for this series, 52 per season sounds about right.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Boardwalk Empire and True Blood both get 12. Why doesn't this?? Now I'm super bummed and want to go find my pitchfork.


----------



## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

The quantity of unprotected spoilers from the book in this TV thread is staggering.



Spoiler



Hint: when someone asks a question and you respond with: "Oooh then I guess you haven't read the other books" ... that's a spoiler for things not yet aired.

Hint: when you say, "so glad to finally see the gray wolf" ... that's a spoiler for things not yet aired. Without reading that, I may not know if the wolf will come back.

Hint: when you say, "they should have done more to introduce the knight" ... that's a spoiler for things not yet aired. Now I know this a major character.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I hope you are serious. I'm not clicking that spoiler but if it's true and people are spoiling things from the books in the episode threads, CUT IT OUT!


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I hope you are serious. I'm not clicking that spoiler but if it's true and people are spoiling things from the books in the episode threads, CUT IT OUT!


I consider them very minor, but they do provide hints. I'm currently reading, but I'm only slightly ahead of the show, and one of the spoilers caused me to think "hmm". People do need to be careful with book talk.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

dtivouser said:


> The quantity of unprotected spoilers from the book in this TV thread is staggaring.


I was going to say the same thing



Spoiler



was surprised someone mentioned "The Church"


----------



## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I hope you are serious. I'm not clicking that spoiler


I haven't read the books, the text blocked for spoilers restates some character/plot points already called out in this thread as an example. Three things I wish I hadn't read.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Not that I think it would ever happen but what do you think would be the fallout if he ordered his own mother's death?


Well, I do think it could happen!

and man-o-man, it can go in so many directions! Jaime, would he go with his son or his love? Tywin? can't even hazard a guess. Tyrion would most def go against Joffrey. That would be so much FUN!



photoshopgrl said:


> I hope you are serious. I'm not clicking that spoiler but if it's true and people are spoiling things from the books in the episode threads, CUT IT OUT!


I hope he is NOT serious and that people are not throwing out spoilers without tags. As agreed (and dear God, let's not start that again), people who have not read the books will speculate and sometimes guess right. That doesn't make it a spoiler.

I bought the books and won't read them until GOT's run is over on HBO. And HBO is hyping this more than they were for the Sopranos. They know they have a huge winner on their hands.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

dtivouser said:


> The quantity of unprotected spoilers from the book in this TV thread is staggering.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know if I would consider those spoilers. I think those spoilers are no worse if not less spoiler'ly than the Walking Dead Michonne character that blew up the Walking Dead thread just a couple of weeks ago.

Regarding the spoilers you mentioned


Spoiler



It's common knowledge that the Stark kids all got Direwolves, but the wolves (actors) were uncooperative last season so we barely saw them. What we saw on the season premiere was what I though the Direwolves looked like in my head and was happy to see them.

The knight you speak of, in terms of plot they haven't spoiled anything. By watching the episode it's obvious he someone important in Stannis story line, but to what effect, how long, and what his backtory is I don't think has been revealed.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

dtivouser said:


> I haven't read the books, the text blocked for spoilers restates some character/plot points already called out in this thread as an example. Three things I wish I hadn't read.


Two of the three zoomed over my head. The other didn't bother me, but I agree people need to be more careful.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> I was going to say the same thing
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



though that could be considered spoilery, I didn't mean it that way, I meant it more with regard to any church, where incest would be considered an abomination and more sinful than adultery. Notice I did not capitalize the church. The king, on the other hand, would be more concerned about the treason of the adultery.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Ereth said:


> A Lannister ordering the butchering of children. Seems to be a family trend. And for the same reasons, really, to prevent any possible claims to the throne.


Bastard kids wouldn't have claims to the throne. What they would (and did) is show that all of Robert Baratheon's children have black hair



Spoiler



as does John Snow?





Ereth said:


> How cold do you have to be to give that order?


As cold as King Herod - where the story came from.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> ...Speaking of the poisoning, did I miss something? I though the guy dropped the little pill in his own glass, then took a drink from it before handing it to the lady, and she drank from it but only he died....





heySkippy said:


> She was immune to the poison.





Ereth said:


> More interestingly, to me, was the fact that it was pretty clear she knew it was poisoned before she drank from it. They stress that more in the book, but even in the show, watch her eyes. She looks at the Maester the entire time, and she drinks fully, even though he's already obviously dying before she takes the first sip. She's sending a message there.


Never challenge a red priestess of the light when death is on the line!


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> She was immune to the poison.





photoshopgrl said:


> As I said before, you probably think he looks like Jean Reno (The Professional)


He's almost a twin for Ser Jorah Mermont. I keep thinking I've seen him elsewhere, too.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

netringer said:


> He's almost a twin for Ser Jorah Mermont. I keep thinking I've seen him elsewhere, too.


I don't think they look anything at all alike.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

tiassa said:


> Here's a question: Who knows about Joffery's true parentage? I suspect Tyrion does, Cat and John and the Baratheons probably do as well. But what about Tywin? Was sending Circe and Jamie to King's landing part of a secret master plan for Lannester domination? Did he suspect the depth of feelings between them?
> And the other question is which is Circe's bigger crime? Stepping out in the king or fathering children with her brother?





photoshopgrl said:


> ...I'd say everyone in the entire universe has heard of his lineage by now. But only Cercei, Jamie and dead Ned know for certain, no?
> And I'd say her biggest crime is not just birthing her brother's child but passing him off as Robert's and allowing him to take the throne knowing the truth.





Anubys said:


> At this point, everyone knows. What's his name (Robert's brother, the true heir) sent word to everyone.
> 
> If you're asking who "knew", not who knows; then I suspect it was encouraged by Tywin. His discussion with Jaime the first time we saw Tywin in season 1 indicated that he at least knew about it. Tyrion certainly knew, since he alluded as much when he told Ceirse and Jaime that the kid didn't die from the fall. Cierse even indicated that the inter-breading is encouraged between the lannisters (albeit secretly) to keep the lineage strong when Ned confronted her.


Stannis Baratheon, who knew because he says he was the only one Ned Stark told.

At this point Joffrey just has to behead everybody who whispers the truth, until the peasants rise up and behead Joffrey.

I'd like to see Ayla be the one that shows King Joffrey that she knows which way to point the pointy end of "Needle."


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Ayla? What is this, Clan of the Cave Bear?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

netringer said:


> I'd like to see Ayla be the one that shows King Joffrey that she knows which way to point the pointy end of "Needle."


I wonder how many times a day Sansa thinks to herself, "All it would have taken was one little push..."?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

netringer said:


> Stannis Baratheon, who knew because he says he was the only one Ned Stark told.
> 
> At this point Joffrey just has to behead everybody who whispers the truth, until the peasants rise up and behead Joffrey.
> 
> I'd like to see Ayla be the one that shows King Joffrey that she knows which way to point the pointy end of "Needle."


But still that is hearsay.

And you mean Arya?


----------



## nexter (Aug 25, 2010)

I remember reading an untagged spoiler here about Ned last season, fortunately none of the ones being spoke of here is that big but it does suck to us people who haven't read the books 

and holy crap, he does look like Jean Reno lol


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Untagged spoiler - This season - SOMEBODY DIES!

I promise.

I'm being funny, but you know in most series, that actually WOULD be a spoiler. In Game of Thrones that's a "Duh" moment. Kind of an interesting thought about how different GoT is to every other series we've ever had.


----------



## nexter (Aug 25, 2010)

Ereth said:


> Untagged spoiler - This season - SOMEBODY DIES!
> 
> I promise.
> 
> I'm being funny, but you know in most series, that actually WOULD be a spoiler. In Game of Thrones that's a "Duh" moment. Kind of an interesting thought about how different GoT is to every other series we've ever had.


lol how true


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Just 2 things that struck me since I hadn't rewatched season 1 since last year---Tyrion was smaller than I remembered and so was Hodor. His carrying Bran around is going to be a problem as Bran gets older. Arya also will be a problem if she gets taller and more mature.

I hadn't read the books when I saw season 1, and now I have. It spoils it to some extent, but it's sooo much easier to follow. You don't waste time being confused. (at least it happened to me a lot last year). Still there are times when knowing what's going to happen makes you sad. 


Spoiler



like when Rob told his mother the family would all be together soon.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

When Deanerys is carrying a dragon she keeps looking in the wrong place. You'd think they would have given her a model or use something like a spider monkey


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

netringer said:


> When Deanerys is carrying a dragon she keeps looking in the wrong place. You'd think they would have given her a model or use something like a spider monkey


well, since the CGI is done AFTER she did her shots, you would think they would do the CGI better, not blame the actress!

I am going to watch each episode at least a second time. Too many subtle things get missed during a first viewing. One thing they glossed over is that Robb has 3 victories now. I wonder if we'll find out who (and how) he beat and how resounding was the victory.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> I am going to watch each episode at least a second time. Too many subtle things get missed during a first viewing.


I agree. I watched all of season 1 straight through and went back to watch them all again and realized even though I had caught on fairly fast to all the characters, thanks to the HBO site, I still missed so many things that first time around. And hell even the third time I picked up a few more things. 
I'm about to rewatch last night's episode now that I've caught up on Mad Men.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

netringer said:


> Bastard kids wouldn't have claims to the throne. What they would (and did) is show that all of Robert Baratheon's children have black hair
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Response to spoiler


Spoiler



John Snow is a member of the Stark family, who all have black/brown hair except for Sansa and Katyln (who is NOT John's mother.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Anubys said:


> At this point, everyone knows. What's his name (Robert's brother, the true heir) sent word to everyone.
> 
> If you're asking who "knew", not who knows; then I suspect it was encouraged by Tywin. His discussion with Jaime the first time we saw Tywin in season 1 indicated that he at least knew about it. Tyrion certainly knew, since he alluded as much when he told Ceirse and Jaime that the kid didn't die from the fall. Cierse even indicated that the inter-breading is encouraged between the lannisters (albeit secretly) to keep the lineage strong when Ned confronted her.


I probably shouldn't have said "Who knows" as much as "Who believes". I took Cersie's declaration that the Targerians inter-bred more as a statement of "It isn't such an awful thing" not "The Lannisters believe this is the right course". I guess part of my question is "If your were a member of one of the Noble houses of Westeros, and also boffing your sibling, is this a big deal, small deal or no deal at aii?"


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

robojerk said:


> Response to spoiler
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



I know nothing having not read the books. I saw a mention on a spoiler on Fark that Robert Baratheon could be John Snow's father by Ned's sister IIlysa(?) Stark. That would make Snow a Stark, but not Ned's son, and another Robert Baratheon bastard.

They note that Ned says "You're have Stark blood," but not "You're my son" or "You have _my_ blood."


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

pmyers said:


> To me, watching this show is just like watching "Lost"....I absolutely love every second but I doubt I get half of what's going on. LOL


Grrrrrrr. It is not Lost. It has a plot.


----------



## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

FYI,

For those that absolutely can't wait a week for the second episode of the season, there is a web rip capture out on Usenet and torrents. The second episode was available in Europe on HBO to GO. The quality isn't what you usually see for a capture. Not a true HD capture. But it's certainly watchable. 

What to do, what to do......


----------



## nexter (Aug 25, 2010)

Malcontent said:


> FYI,
> 
> For those that absolutely can't wait a week for the second episode of the season, there is a web rip capture out on Usenet and torrents. The second episode was available in Europe on HBO to GO. The quality isn't what you usually see for a capture. Not a true HD capture. But it's certainly watchable.
> 
> What to do, what to do......


so very very tempting but personally I'd rather wait till it airs simply because I don't want to have to wait 2 weeks for a new episode


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

It seems to me that a lot of times, things people think are spoilers only appear to be spoilers when colored by your own interpretations:



> Hint: when someone asks a question and you respond with: "Oooh then I guess you haven't read the other books" ... that's a spoiler for things not yet aired.


Actually, the question asked was "I understand you didn't read the books?", which to me seemed to be more a question of "your just speculating, and not cheating by having read the book, right"...you know, to make sure someone isn't giving away a spoiler.

However, even if that were the question asked, how is that a spoiler? Is it a spoiler as in "I guess you haven't read the books, otherwise you'd know what would happen if it did"? Or is it a spoiler as in "I guess you haven't read the books, because you'd know it doesn't happen"? The question can rightfully be taken as a "spoiler" in either direction.



> Hint: when you say, "so glad to finally see the gray wolf" ... that's a spoiler for things not yet aired. Without reading that, I may not know if the wolf will come back.


Actually, he appears to have made a mistake in his post, so it' not even accurate:


Spoiler



A quick search indicates the wolf's name is Grey Wind, not Grey Wolf



Aside from that, it seems to me expected that we'd see something from each of the wolves. We've already seen Bran's, Jon's, Sensa's, and Arya's wolves all play key roles in each of their masters' lives. It seemed inevitable that sooner or later we'd see something from Robb's wolf, and I expect we'll see Rikkon's wolf play an interesting role before the series finale. By making that assumption, am I posting a spoiler? Even though I've never read the book?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

What's up with the guy who marries his daughters? Why did our Northern heroes bow to his wishes instead of kicking his ass and taking his stuff? The guy is vile. What do they need him for? Does he have any kind of army to protect him?

When Cercei pimp slapped Joffrey, I thought and hoped that she would slap him a couple more times after he mouthed off to show him who truly was boss. But she didn't and Joffrey got to leave a threat to her as the last word of the altercation.

I liked how the comet tied all the various scenes together.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> What's up with the guy who marries his daughters? Why did our Northern heroes bow to his wishes instead of kicking his ass and taking his stuff? The guy is vile. What do they need him for? Does he have any kind of army to protect him?


He is, apparently, the kind of guy that can survive beyond the Wall. And of all the guys who can (and do) survive beyond the Wall, he's the one who is still willing to deal with the Watch. Therefore, repulsive as he is, he's a valuable resource.

If they kick his ass and take his stuff, they lose most of their access to information from north of the Wall.


----------



## fmowry (Apr 30, 2002)

EW recap for those who missed it:

http://tvrecaps.ew.com/recap/game-of-thrones-north-remembers/

Where did we leave off with Gendry and Arya last year? Did they get together then? I can't remember.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

fmowry said:


> Where did we leave off with Gendry and Arya last year? Did they get together then? I can't remember.


Yes, the band heading for the Wall has, er, headed for the Wall.

Gendry defended Arya when the "other boys" were picking on "him."


----------



## fmowry (Apr 30, 2002)

Thanks. Guess I shoulda rewatched the marathon leading up to the premiere. Hard enough for me to follow when I'm caught up, let alone 6 months later (or however long it's been).


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Here's a question after watching this again last night. Are we supposed to think it was Cercei or Joffrey that ordered the bastards slain? I assumed it was Cercei but it seems others are assuming it was Joffrey.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Here's a question after watching this again last night. Are we supposed to think it was Cercei or Joffrey that ordered the bastards slain? I assumed it was Cercei but it seems others are assuming it was Joffrey.


I am assuming Joffrey. Cercei is not that vicious. Nor is she that dumb. None of them can assume the throne if Joffrey is proven a bastard. The legit sons take claim.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

allan said:


> That's one reason I bought the first two books. Reading the first book helped me get a handle on Season 1.


This, but I haven't read the second book, just didn't find the time.

Awesome setup episode, maybe the best setup episode I've ever seen. We got a little bit of what is going on with each of the families and this sets us up for the rest of the season. While I don't agree AT ALL with the NY Times review I posted in the season 2 thread, the one thing they were right about, every time Joffrey is on the screen I cringe (in a good way). In the way he and the Lannisters are running the kingdom, it reminds me of the Nazis and how they consolidated power after getting power in 1933. They killed off most of their enemies and made examples of anyone who questioned their power. And Joffrey is the perfect Hitler.

I am really stoked for the rest of the season!!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

But what would be his motivation? He didn't even know they existed so he wouldn't know to kill them off because they all have dark hair and I'm sure he knows they have no claim to his crown, no? Sure he's that vicious I'm just not sure he's that smart which is why I assumed it was Cercei so she could expel any evidence that Joffrey doesn't look anything like all Robert's other spawn.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> I am assuming Joffrey. Cercei is not that vicious. Nor is she that dumb. None of them can assume the throne if Joffrey is proven a bastard. The legit sons take claim.


Which legit sons would those be? If Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are proven to be bastards, then Robert has no legit sons.

Which is, of course, why Stannis says he is now the rightful King.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think it's Joffrey. Joffrey's crazy, and Cercei is just stupid. No way is she crazy enough to eliminate that much of Westeros's future tax base.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

hmmm well I hope they clarify that... not that it matters I suppose but it's one of those things that will bug me.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tiassa said:


> I probably shouldn't have said "Who knows" as much as "Who believes". I took Cersie's declaration that the Targerians inter-bred more as a statement of "It isn't such an awful thing" not "The Lannisters believe this is the right course". I guess part of my question is "If your were a member of one of the Noble houses of Westeros, and also boffing your sibling, is this a big deal, small deal or no deal at aii?"


I think lots of people will have very strong doubts. Littlefinger believes (and knew before Ned), so is the Spider. I'm sure lots of people believe.

I think it's also clear that people in Westoros think incest is bad (many people said so outright). So the Lannister's practice is supposed to be a secret. But Cersie is not forced into it; witness her sleeping with her cousin (the King's squire who got him so drunk that the pig gored him) when Jaime wasn't around.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

netringer said:


> Never challenge a red priestess of the light when death is on the line!


And here I thought it was that she spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I think it's also clear that people in Westoros think incest is bad (many people said so outright). So the Lannister's practice is supposed to be a secret. But Cersie is not forced into it; witness her sleeping with her cousin (the King's squire who got him so drunk that the pig gored him) when Jaime wasn't around.


Although remember that under the previous administration (the Targaryens, who were in power just 16 or so years ago and for centuries befor) brother-sister royal marriages were S.O.P.

I think the bigger problem is that any children of Jaime and Cercei have no legitimate claim to the throne. Otherwise, I don't think they'd have any problem with "going public." They don't just want to screw like bunnies; they want the results to rule the kingdom.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

netringer said:


> Bastard kids wouldn't have claims to the throne. What they would (and did) is show that all of Robert Baratheon's children have black hair


Yes, but the existence of Black-haired Baratheon bastards would impact Joffery's claim to the throne, so you can make the case that they were killed to solidify the current king's power.



Anubys said:


> I think it's also clear that people in Westoros think incest is bad (many people said so outright). So the Lannister's practice is supposed to be a secret. But Cersie is not forced into it; witness her sleeping with her cousin (the King's squire who got him so drunk that the pig gored him) when Jaime wasn't around.


Yeah, I think Cerise has issues (geez lady can't you keep your dress down!), BTW what happens if she turns up pregnant, now that her husband is dead? I suppose there is the Westeros equivalent of the "Back Alley Abortion" (and would Cersie take that option?) but there is no way that bit of information wouldn't get out.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although remember that under the previous administration (the Targaryens, who were in power just 16 or so years ago and for centuries befor) brother-sister royal marriages were S.O.P.
> 
> I think the bigger problem is that any children of Jaime and Cercei have no legitimate claim to the throne. Otherwise, I don't think they'd have any problem with "going public." They don't just want to screw like bunnies; they want the results to rule the kingdom.


I was kind of thinking the same thing-- a secret Lannister plan for world domination


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Kinda interesting that the fat drunk knight(?) at the beginning of the episode was wearing an armor with the american flag painted on it...


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

tiassa said:


> And here I thought it was that she spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.


INCONCEIVABLE!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DavidTigerFan said:


> INCONCEIVABLE!


I think that word means what you think it means...


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Kinda interesting that the fat drunk knight(?) at the beginning of the episode was wearing an armor with the american flag painted on it...


I briefly wondered what a fat, drunk Captain America was doing in Game Of Thrones. On close up, you could see it wasn't an American flag.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Was it a different actor playing Gendry? The boy in the last scene didn't look the same to me.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I briefly wondered what a fat, drunk Captain America was doing in Game Of Thrones. On close up, you could see it wasn't an American flag.


LOL...I thought the same thing about Cpt America


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think that word means what you think it means...


huh?


----------



## Vendikarr (Feb 24, 2004)

Ereth said:


> Which legit sons would those be? If Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are proven to be bastards, then Robert has no legit sons.
> 
> Which is, of course, why Stannis says he is now the rightful King.


In the middle ages, a bastard only had standing if he was acknowledged by his parent in writing or before witnesses. So unless Robert left such a document behind with someone, his bastards have no standing.

Of course I wouldn't put it past someone to lie about witnessing Robert acknowledge a bastard to back a puppet in the game of thrones.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

JETarpon said:


> Was it a different actor playing Gendry? The boy in the last scene didn't look the same to me.


Same actor. I had to look it up.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

photoshopgrl said:


> Same actor. I had to look it up.


It looked like Gendry had more hair than last season.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

robojerk said:


> It looked like Gendry had more hair than last season.


Well it's been a few months


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

How izzit that the palace guards not only knew what "GIVE HIM HIS FILL!" meant, they had the funnel ready to use?

Joffrey has his amusements pre-planned?


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Vendikarr said:


> In the middle ages, a bastard only had standing if he was acknowledged by his parent in writing or before witnesses. So unless Robert left such a document behind with someone, his bastards have no standing.
> 
> Of course I wouldn't put it past someone to lie about witnessing Robert acknowledge a bastard to back a puppet in the game of thrones.


I understand that. My argument was that there are 0 legit sons. Someone said the legit sons have higher standing than the bastards. Ok, but there aren't any of those.

Who has the better claim? Someone who is half Baratheon or someone who is 0% Baratheon?

The whole thing is analagous to the War of the Roses. When the King dies with no legitimate heirs, the battle for the throne gets very complex and messy.

Seems to me that Daenerys has a better claim than anybody now that "The Usurper" is gone and has left no legitimate heirs. Of course, the Lannisters will not think so, nor will the other Baratheons (Stannis and Renly). I can't imagine that Robb Stark would actually care who sat the Iron Throne if they were to let the North alone.

So, really, nobody has a simple claim. And that's why it's so interesting because everybody is trying to maneuver so their slim claim is the strongest.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

netringer said:


> How izzit that the palace guards not only knew what "GIVE HIM HIS FILL!" meant, they had the funnel ready to use?
> 
> Joffrey has his amusements pre-planned?


I just took it to mean that this wasn't the first time he killed someone that way.

oh, and I am in the "Joffrey ordered all the bastards killed" camp. Sounds like something he would do.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Ereth said:


> Who has the better claim? Someone who is half Baratheon or someone who is 0% Baratheon?


Obviously someone who is half but who would that be??


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Obviously someone who is half but who would that be??


Any of the bastards. But that wouldn't really come into it unless Robert had no other legitimate errors. So the bastards are unimportant until the time when Stannis, Renly, or their male sons are dead.

Still, better safe than sorry! Kill the babes!


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Since Robert was king, Stannis is the rightful legitimate heir. However no one likes him, and it's been said that he would make for a horrible king.

Daenerys has a claim, but since the war removed her family from the throne I guess it's not a real legitimate claim unless she starts anothewr war to reclaim it.

Bastards have no legal claim, but if one of the bastards could persuade other powerful houses to seat them onto the throne then he could be king, but why would anyone want to help a bastard? Even if Robert had no legitimate children the wardens/lords (Starks, Arryns, Lannisters, Baratheons, etc..) would need to support their claim, and none would want to be ruled under a bastard. I think killing the bastards off was done in spite, with a rationalization of removing other claims. For example, the baby in the whore house, who would ever put that child in the throne? No one..

Joeffrey's claim is probably the strongest even though it's a lie.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Obviously someone who is half but who would that be??


All the black haired bastards


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

robojerk said:


> Since Robert was king, Stannis is the rightful legitimate heir.


Bingo. Legitimate heir≠legitimate offspring.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

robojerk said:


> Bastards have no legal claim, but if one of the bastards could persuade other powerful houses to seat them onto the throne then he could be king, but why would anyone want to help a bastard? Even if Robert had no legitimate children the wardens/lords (Starks, Arryns, Lannisters, Baratheons, etc..) would need to support their claim, and none would want to be ruled under a bastard. I think killing the bastards off was done in spite, with a rationalization of removing other claims. For example, the baby in the whore house, who would ever put that child in the throne? No one..


To re-iterate my thought, if this world closely resembles real life dark ages in terms of how bastards are viewed, the lords view themselves as above the common person, and producing an offspring with a lowley common person means that child is tainted or something and has no legal rights to anything. A good example is this illegitimate son from Henry VIII. Through legal means, a bastard can become legitimate, however if the king/lord were married it would piss off their wife and her family.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Ereth said:


> Seems to me that Daenerys has a better claim than anybody now that "The Usurper" is gone and has left no legitimate heirs.


Extremely minor spoiler from the book.


Spoiler



Women aren't in line for succession in Westeros. Dany has no claim.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

robojerk said:


> For example, the baby in the whore house, who would ever put that child in the throne? No one..


Not now, but what about in 15 years? If Joffrey continues to be such a rotten king, his enemies might rally around that child and work to put him on the throne as figurehead in place of Joff.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> Extremely minor spoiler from the book.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



Hey! True! Can we look for Dany to have a son from Ser Jorah?Oh. He wouldn't be in line, either?


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

JETarpon said:


> Not now, but what about in 15 years? If Joffrey continues to be such a rotten king, his enemies might rally around that child and work to put him on the throne as figurehead in place of Joff.


I still don't think a whore's baby would ever be put on the iron throne. First off it would require the majority of the major houses of Westeros to bend the knee to this child. I just don't see any of the Lannisters, Starks, Arryns, Baratheons, Tully's, Frays, etc.. to even risk it, let alone even enjoy the notion of putting a lesser person than a lord as king.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

netringer said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! True! Can we look for Dany to have a son from Ser Jorah?Oh. He wouldn't be in line, either?





Spoiler



I think women can propagate the , they just aren't in line themselves. But it doesn't matter. I don't remember how clear they've made this on the show, but Dany is sterile. When the witch took her son to heal her husband, it made her barren.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

DavidTigerFan said:


> huh?


I believe what he meant to write was "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tiassa said:


> I believe what he meant to write was "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


Except in this case, I was joking that the use of the word was appropriate.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> Extremely minor spoiler from the book.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


That's not a spoiler. We already know women can't be king. That can be figured out from the discussion Ned and Renly had about who should be king. Renley said something like "Joffrey's a monster, Tommen is 8, and Stannis would be a terrible king". He didn't even consider Myrcella.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

tiassa said:


> I believe what he meant to write was "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


ahh...


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> That's not a spoiler. We already know women can't be king. That can be figured out from the discussion Ned and Renly had about who should be king. Renley said something like "Joffrey's a monster, Tommen is 8, and Stannis would be a terrible king". He didn't even consider Myrcella.


.


Spoiler



It is still a minor spoiler. There are no rules in Game of Thrones.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> What's up with the guy who marries his daughters? Why did our Northern heroes bow to his wishes instead of kicking his ass and taking his stuff? The guy is vile. What do they need him for? Does he have any kind of army to protect him?


The Night's Watch doesn't need any more trouble. Craster doesn't have more men but the Night's Watch doesn't have the resources to look after Craster's wives either. And like Rob mentioned, he's an informer and a sort of "ally" if you will.

He's a wildling and knows about Mance Raydar, a former man of the Night's Watch who deserted some time ago. Mance stylizes himself as King Beyond the Wall and is now amassing an army of sorts so Craster serves as an informant as long as they give him goods to keep him happy. Also, they are guests in his house which is a welcome break after many long days of marching and sleeping in the cold.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

As audioscience says, they are guests in his house. When you are guests in someone's house, you don't kick his ass. (And he doesn't kick yours.)


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

JETarpon said:


> As audioscience says, they are guests in his house. When you are guests in someone's house, you don't kick his ass. (And he doesn't kick yours.)


I think this should be highlighted, customs are important..


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

In RE to it being Cercei or Joffrey who ordered Robert's bastards slain, next week's episode summary:


Spoiler



In the wake of a bloody purge in the capital, Tyrion chastens Cersei for alienating the king's subjects.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> In RE to it being Cercei or Joffrey who ordered Robert's bastards slain, next week's episode summary:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Well, that could refer to any number of things...


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Yeah I suppose it could. I still stand by my previous thoughts until otherwise known.


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## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

photoshopgrl said:


> In RE to it being Cercei or Joffrey who ordered Robert's bastards slain, next week's episode summary:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


When reading the books (only got through 2 so far) once I figured out that someone was disposing of Robert's bastards because of they all had dark hair and Joffrey and his siblings didn't, I was sure that it was Cercei who was doing it. (Did Ned mention the hair thing when he confronted Cercei? I don't remember)

Joffrey doesn't know he's a bastard, so why should he be removing evidence? He's not smart enough to think of it.

Cercei on the other hand is cold and devious enough to do it.


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## nexter (Aug 25, 2010)

Honora said:


> When reading the books (only got through 2 so far) once I figured out that someone was disposing of Robert's bastards because of they all had dark hair and Joffrey and his siblings didn't, I was sure that it was Cercei who was doing it. (Did Ned mention the hair thing when he confronted Cercei? I don't remember)
> 
> Joffrey doesn't know he's a bastard, so why should he be removing evidence? He's not smart enough to think of it.
> 
> Cercei on the other hand is cold and devious enough to do it.


He may not know he's a bastard but I think suspects it considering thats what led to his mother slapping him....I think it's entirely possible that Joffrey ordered the executions, but personally I'm leaning more toward Cercei.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

nexter said:


> He may not know he's a bastard but I think suspects it considering thats what led to his mother slapping him....I think it's entirely possible that Joffrey ordered the executions, but personally I'm leaning more toward Cercei.


I think she slapped him because he was upset that she allowed Robert to sleep around so much. I too don't believe he is aware of his parentage.

My bet is that Cersai is killing them, she hated Robert and this is how she will get her revenge on him because she dared not to do anything while he was still alive.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm in the "Cersai did it" camp as well. Joffrey is too self centered to think that the bastards would be any kind of a threat. Cersai knows better.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

It never even crossed my mind that Cersei did it. But the more you guys talk about it, the more I lean towards her. I recall her epic conversation with Robert in Season 1; as well as other times when she (and Jaime) could barely contain their fury at Robert's womanizing. I can see her doing it.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

Why would the bastards be any kind of threat, even John who was raised by Ned and acknowledged more than most bastards had very little standing in his family. the best he could do was go serve at the wall. I just don't see them as any kind of threat to Joffrey.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

JFriday said:


> Why would the bastards be any kind of threat, even John who was raised by Ned and acknowledged more than most bastards had very little standing in his family. the best he could do was go serve at the wall. I just don't see them as any kind of threat to Joffrey.


I think they mean the threat that they will expose him as not a true heir to the throne, being that all his children have dark hair and Joffrey is as blonde as they come.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> I think they mean the threat that they will expose him as not a true heir to the throne, being that all his children have dark hair and Joffrey is as blonde as they come.


It is this. Bastards, even acknowledged bastards, have no standing at all. The only threat they show is that Robert had very dominant genes, so much so that Robert's features show very strongly in all of his children (dark hair, thick hair, brown eyes, strong Baratheon jawlines). Cersei births three blond hair, green eyed babes and no one is none the wiser until Ned (in the series anyway, in the books it is someone else) puts it altogether. Cersei fears that with the "rumors" being out there about her and Jamie, that people will look at the bastards, see how much like Robert they look, and think to themselves, "You know what, there might be some truth to it."

In other words, the bastards are evidence of Cersei's nastiness.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

JFriday said:


> Why would the bastards be any kind of threat, even John who was raised by Ned and acknowledged more than most bastards had very little standing in his family. the best he could do was go serve at the wall. I just don't see them as any kind of threat to Joffrey.


This is why I lean now to Cersei. It's more of a revenge/spite/hate kind of thing. Joffrey has no reason to feel that way towards the bastards, but Cersei does.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> It is this. Bastards, even acknowledged bastards, have no standing at all. The only threat they show is that Robert had very dominant genes, so much so that Robert's features show very strongly in all of his children (dark hair, thick hair, brown eyes, strong Baratheon jawlines). Cersei births three blond hair, green eyed babes and no one is none the wiser until Ned (in the series anyway, in the books it is someone else) puts it altogether. Cersei fears that with the "rumors" being out there about her and Jamie, that people will look at the bastards, see how much like Robert they look, and think to themselves, "You know what, there might be some truth to it."
> 
> In other words, the bastards are evidence of Cersei's nastiness.


Ned just followed the leads that Jon Aryn (?), the Hand of the King before Ned, had left. He died when he not only discovered the truth, but was going to tell the King about it.

I make this qualifications because I am sure that at least 2 other people knew (since they know everything): Littlefinger and the Spider (I can't recall his name).

So Ned wasn't the first too know. Not by a long shot.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I make this qualifications because I am sure that at least 2 other people knew (since they know everything): Littlefinger and the Spider (I can't recall his name).
> 
> So Ned wasn't the first too know. Not by a long shot.


I would add the Grand Maester to the list of people who knew.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> I would add the Grand Maester to the list of people who knew.


Littlefinger, too. He was the one who kept taking Ned on the bastards tour, and as he was leaving to return Winterfell, "Do you want to see the last person John Arryn saw the night he died?" where he set up Ned to run into Jamie Lannister and his henchmen.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

netringer said:


> Littlefinger, too. He was the one who kept taking Ned on the bastards tour, and as he was leaving to return Winterfell, "Do you want to see the last person John Arryn saw the night he died?" where he set up Ned to run into Jamie Lannister and his henchmen.


Anubys did say Littlefinger


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

Isn't Cerceis family all blondes? Maybe they have strong genes too.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

JFriday said:


> Isn't Cerceis family all blondes? Maybe they have strong genes too.


They are all blondes due to inbreeding though. I assume if one isn't sleeping with their sibling the gene isn't as strong.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> They are all blondes due to inbreeding though. I assume if one isn't sleeping with their sibling the gene isn't as strong.


Especially your twin!


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

I don't think Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion are imbred. That's who I was talking about.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

JFriday said:


> I don't think Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion are imbred. That's who I was talking about.


Well unless the book has said they are not, we don't know that, do we? It's never been mentioned on the show that I recall.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

JFriday said:


> I don't think Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion are imbred. That's who I was talking about.


I doubt the Lannisters inbreed. In the books they spell it out that inbreeding is *not* accepted in Westeros, except for the Targaryon family. The Targaryons were allowed to do it since they did it in Valaryia before coming to Westeros. They came and conquered Westeros with big ass dragons. After kicking everyone's butt, and having dragons, who's going to tell them they can't inbreed? After hundreds of years it just became accepted that Targaryons inbreed. Cersai uses the Targaryons to justify her and Jaime's relationship.

Edit: I wish to add that not all the Targaryons inbred. In fact one of them married (not a king) into the Baratheon house, which was why King Robert was able to justify his claim to the throne. (Ignoring the fact Daenerys's brother Viserys was alive)


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> I would add the Grand Maester to the list of people who knew.


There was nothing to indicate that Maester Pycelle knew, not that it matters. He showed Ned Stark the genealogy book that Jon Arryn asked for but he indicated he wasn't sure what for.



photoshopgrl said:


> Well unless the book has said they are not, we don't know that, do we? It's never been mentioned on the show that I recall.


The books never say that anyone in the Lannister family is inbread; Jaime and Cersei are the only two.

What Robojerk says about Targaryens pretty much sums it up.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

robojerk said:


> I doubt the Lannisters inbreed. In the books they spell it out that inbreeding is *not* accepted in Westeros, except for the Targaryon family. The Targaryons were allowed to do it since they did it in Valaryia before coming to Westeros. ...


Not that we should let reality intrude but there's a reason why inbreeding is a cultural no-no: It results in mutants with (bad) recessive traits.

That's why we don't even do it with dogs, except in a cases where they wanted the "bad" mutations like in English Bulldogs.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

netringer said:


> Not that we should let reality intrude but there's a reason why inbreeding is a cultural no-no: It results in mutants with (bad) recessive traits.
> 
> That's why we don't even do it with dogs, except in a cases where they wanted the "bad" mutations like in English Bulldogs.


Well, I had my suspicions about Dany's brother (I'm blanking on his name).


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

allan said:


> Well, I had my suspicions about Dany's brother (I'm blanking on his name).


Viserys


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Cersei told Ned that inbreeding was normal for her family (centuries, decades, some time ago) when he was confronting her with what he knew. She also has no problems sleeping with her cousin (though the definition of inbreeding becomes murky here). She did justify her action by explaining the special bond she has with Jaime.

It's also important to note than during the time Robert was sleeping with her, she did get pregnant and the boy was dark haired.

I still say Cersei killed that baby, btw.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

JFriday said:


> Isn't Cerceis family all blondes? Maybe they have strong genes too.


I thought one of the births that Ned looked up last season was a Baratheon/Lanister child, and it had dark hair. That one was the clincher.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

netringer said:


> Not that we should let reality intrude but there's a reason why inbreeding is a cultural no-no: It results in mutants with (bad) recessive traits.
> 
> That's why we don't even do it with dogs, except in a cases where they wanted the "bad" mutations like in English Bulldogs.


But in this world, it apparently can result in some good mutations, like being able to survive being burnt alive [dragon eggs optional].


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Cersei told Ned that inbreeding was normal for her family (centuries, decades, some time ago) when he was confronting her with what he knew.


I don't remember it that way. As far as I can remember the only inbreeding of a major house of Westeros has been the Targaryons. I think Cersei may have mentioned how it was okay for the Targaryons to do it, so why not her and Jaime.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

robojerk said:


> I don't remember it that way. As far as I can remember the only inbreeding of a major house of Westeros has been the Targaryons. I think Cersei may have mentioned how it was okay for the Targaryons to do it, so why not her and Jaime.


You would very well be right. I may have confused Targaryons with lannisters and misunderstood what she said.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> You would very well be right. I may have confused Targaryons with lannisters and misunderstood what she said.


I plan to find this conversation when I get home in a couple of hours so we can know for sure. That will bug me now.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Ned just followed the leads that Jon Aryn (?), the Hand of the King before Ned, had left. He died when he not only discovered the truth, but was going to tell the King about it.
> 
> I make this qualifications because I am sure that at least 2 other people knew (since they know everything): Littlefinger and the Spider (I can't recall his name).
> 
> So Ned wasn't the first too know. Not by a long shot.


I was just trying to keep it simple. I know Ned followed the clues left behind by Jon Arryn's own detective work.

What I was trying to point out, and in my way as it so often is I failed to do so, was that no one else in the entire kingdom would know except that Ned sent a letter to Stannis and told him the truth. Whether Littlefinger or Varys knew is irrelevant as it was in both of their interests to keep it secret, or at least they had no reason to expose the truth.

By alerting Stannis, Stannis was able to tell the rest of the seven kingdoms the truth. Once people heard it, they either believed or scoffed.

Cersei ordered the killing of the bastards because their Baratheon features gave credit to the "rumors" Stannis spread.

Now for the point that will get me lynched.  It is different in the books, because in the books Stannis was actually the first one to figure out the truth. He went to Jon Arryn and Jon Arryn followed up with his own investigation. The Lannisters got wind that Arryn knew, and killed him. At this point in the story it goes the same as the series. Stannis sends out letters just as he did in the books, the only difference being when and how Stannis learned the truth. I do not feel that is a spoiler because it is now history in both the books and the series, and it is also just a comparison between the two.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> ...


RE: Your last paragraph.. Could contain spoilers, and some of it is incorrect, but I cannot say more because it is more spoilers.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

I just want to know who fathered Renly, that doesn't look like black hair.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

robojerk said:


> RE: Your last paragraph.. Could contain spoilers, and some of it is incorrect, but I cannot say because it is more spoilers.


I have read the first two books. Everything I have discussed has thus far happened in both the books and TV show.

If I said something that is wrong based on anything book 3 or beyond, then that is just my ignorance of things not yet revealed.

But again, everything I stated comes from how the books have Stannis describe how the information came to him, which is different than how the series showed he got the information.

I am not opposed to spoilers, if you wish to correct me, please do so in a spoiler box and I will gladly read.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> I have read the first two books. Everything I have discussed has thus far happened in both the books and TV show.
> 
> If I said something that is wrong based on anything book 3 or beyond, then that is just my ignorance of things not yet revealed.
> 
> ...


I'll PM you. If you don't wish to know, don't read my PM and delete.

EDIT: Your original comment just said you read the books, not how far you have gotten. I just assumed you were not remembering correctly.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

JFriday said:


> I just want to know who fathered Renly, that doesn't look like black hair.


Why would Renly necessarily have black hair? He's Robert's brother, not his child.


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## Trugoy (Jun 25, 2006)

JFriday said:


> I don't think Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion are imbred. That's who I was talking about.


Is fathering children with your first cousin considered inbreeding? Tywin Lannister married his cousin, Joanna.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> Why would Renly necessarily have black hair? He's Robert's brother, not his child.


The whole point of the black hair is that the Baratheon genes are incredibly strong they all have black hair for generations, since Renly is a Baratheon shouldn't he have black hair to go along with this theory?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JFriday said:


> The whole point of the black hair is that the Baratheon genes are incredibly strong they all have black hair for generations, since Renly is a Baratheon shouldn't he have black hair to go along with this theory?


Yes, that strikes me as a bit of a casting glitch...


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

All the brothers have brown hair in the series.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> Why would Renly necessarily have black hair? He's Robert's brother, not his child.


Nonetheless, in the show when Ned is reading out of the genealogy book I believe the term used is "dark of hair" not "black of hair". [Edit: I was wrong, just watched the recap and he does say "black of hair." Still moot point to me ]

So dark brown, or black, who cares. You guys are reading too much into it.

Both blond main female actors are really brunettes and Cersei hardly looks like a blonde to me in the show (she's a dark dishwater blonde and the Lannisters are supposed to be much more fair, like Joffrey).

But again, its nitpicking and not important.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

audioscience said:


> Nonetheless, in the show when Ned is reading out of the genealogy book I believe the term used is "dark of hair" not "black of hair".
> 
> So dark brown, or black, who cares. You guys are reading too much into it.
> 
> ...


Heh, JFiriday's picture makes Renly look like a redhead, at least to me. Must be from the Irish side of the Baratheons.  Yeah, I know, nitpicking, but I just had to.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

audioscience said:


> So dark brown, or black, who cares. You guys are reading too much into it.


They don't wear dark brown at the wall!!


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

JFriday said:


> The whole point of the black hair is that the Baratheon genes are incredibly strong they all have black hair for generations, since Renly is a Baratheon shouldn't he have black hair to go along with this theory?


Robert's genes. Renly is a very different person from Robert, being gay and all.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

The whole point of the book in season 1 is that the Baratheon seed it's strong/dominant, and that the children of Baratheons have black hair. Not that Robert's children have black hair, but that all Baratheon children do. Therefore, Renly, if he is a Baratheon, should have black hair.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> The whole point of the book in season 1 is that the Baratheon seed it's strong/dominant, and that the children of Baratheons have black hair. Not that Robert's children have black hair, but that all Baratheon children do. Therefore, Renly, if he is a Baratheon, should have black hair.


But he must be defective, since he's gay and all.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> Robert's genes. Renly is a very different person from Robert, being gay and all.


Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Robert got more than enough for the both them.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

netringer said:


> Not that there's anything wrong with that.
> 
> Robert got more than enough for the both them.


But he has brown hair too. Is he bi?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

robojerk said:


> I don't remember it that way. As far as I can remember the only inbreeding of a major house of Westeros has been the Targaryons. I think Cersei may have mentioned how it was okay for the Targaryons to do it, so why not her and Jaime.





Anubys said:


> You would very well be right. I may have confused Targaryons with lannisters and misunderstood what she said.


He asked about Robert hitting her before, she said Jamie would have killed him and that "my brother is worth a thousand of your friend" and Ned says "your brother or your lover?" She says nothing about her family line here, just that "The Targaryons wed brothers & sisters for 300 years to keep the bloodlines pure. Jamie and I are more than brother and sister. We shared a womb, came into this world together, we belong together." Then Ned turned the conversation to them seeing his son together. Nothing else was said about family lines just about her and Jamie and all her kids being his and not Roberts.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> He asked about Robert hitting her before, she said Jamie would have killed him and that "my brother is worth a thousand of your friend" and Ned says "your brother or your lover?" She says nothing about her family line here, just that "The Targaryons wed brothers & sisters for 300 years to keep the bloodlines pure. Jamie and I are more than brother and sister. We shared a womb, came into this world together, we belong together." Then Ned turned the conversation to them seeing his son together. Nothing else was said about family lines just about her and Jamie and all her kids being his and not Roberts.


Excellent. Thank you. So I was wrong. She was talking about how it was it was ok for the Targarians so why not her and Jaime. That changes everything for me. I think Tyrion still knows the truth but now I wonder if Tywin (the father) knows. I always assumed he sanctioned it or encouraged it. I cannot make that assumption anymore.

I really need to pay attention more. This one mistake made me make considerable assumptions that have now crumbled into dust.


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## sieglinde (Aug 11, 2002)

First cousin marriage is legal in many states. 

As for inbreeding, the Hawaiian ruling class and the Egyptian ruling class had sister/brother marriage. They probably exposed defective infants.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

sieglinde said:


> As for inbreeding, the Hawaiian ruling class and the Egyptian ruling class had sister/brother marriage. They probably exposed defective infants.


Cleopatra was the result of generations of such marriages, and she seems to have done all right for herself. Up to a point.


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