# Transfer S1 or S2 lifetime to S3 for $199!!!



## mick66

Limited time offer from Tivo - transfer S1 or S2 lifetime to S3 for $199!!!
I just heard it Straight out of the mouth of TiVo Shanon.
Tivo will even keep service on the S1 or S2 for another 12 months at no aditional cost.

Maybe I will get one after all. 

This is from the teleworld recording that is taking place right now.
You heard it here first.


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## austing

Yup. The TV was on when TiVo switched over to recorded it's "Enhanced Content". One of the ad's was this promotion.

No mention of how much the S3 box will be but $199 to transfer lifetime over to the S3 from either an S1 or S2. It was referred to as a VIP offer and a webpage was mentioned, tivo website slash vip, but it looks like the page isn't active yet.

My brother happens to have an old Sony S1 box with lifetime that is prime for this promotion.


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## cjw2001

Yep, just saw the same thing.

There were two videos from TiVoShannon announcing the Series 3.

A couple features mentioned...

The new TiVo HD is THX certified.

The new remote is backlit.

The chasis has extra dampening to keep the box quiet.

No mention of box price or availability date.

Now for the big news...

TiVo is allowing current Series 1 or Series 2 lifetime boxes to have the lifetime service transfered to the new Series 3 for a one time charge of $199. They also throw in an additional 12 months of service on the existing box when you pick this option..

Box must be purchased by December 31, 2006 and lifetime transfer by January 31, 2007.

Special hotline to do the transfer 866-424-8486.

www.tivo.com/vip to buy the box (page is not up yet).


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## cheerdude

The $199 fee was the original lifetime fee (before bumped to $249 and before discontinued).

This is GREAT news... especially since you keep the old Lifetime box active for a year.

I also didn't realize (but am also not surprised) about the THX certification. Very cool!

BTW, anyone else notice how great Shanan looked?


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## mick66

cjw2001 said:


> A couple features mentioned...
> 
> The new TiVo HD is THX certified.
> 
> The new remote is backlit.


and
The remote is a learning remote.


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## Graymalkin

Nice offer. But you'll have to take a chance on a newly released Series 3.


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## DTSDude

Glad to see TiVo decided to offer this. There were enough people interested.


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## cmaasfamily

Darn you Tivo! Just when I'd mustered the will to say no!

Glad I didn't get wrapped up in the ebay auctions for old S1's or lifetime giftcards!


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## SnakeEyes

I wish I had gottten lifetime on my S1 box.


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## cap

Wow!

Never, I mean NEVER did I think this would happen.


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## cwoody222

Darn it, I didn't have this on my TiVo this morning.

I agree, I NEVER saw that coming. VERY cool! Not please give me a price much cheaper than $799!

It's awesome that my old unit will keep service for a year too so I could, if I wanted to, sell the S3 if I decided it wasn't for me and keep the old unit as a backup for awhile.


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## HDTiVo

Hey, sounds like a great way for TiVo to 'lose even more money on Lifetime.'   

Looks like TiVo made alot of us look pretty foolish. :up: 

12/31 ain't so limited. What happens after, Lifetime for $149?  

Anyway, this soons pretty good for us, but I am not sure its such a good way for TiVo to move things along.


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## TiVo Troll

This Lifetime Service transfer for $200 illustrates perfectly how unreliable all the "informed" speculation on these Forums really is. But that stupid Forum Troll got ridiculed more than once for posting the bright idea that TiVo ought to price Lifetime Service @ $500! It essentially is, probably to test the market as well as reward existing customers! 

*WOW!*

Well it looks like there will be a Series 3 in my future and another Series 2 laying around and not being used (after a year), and it also looks like I'll end up taking a bath on that Lifetime Service Gift Card I bought.

Hmmm. What else was that dummass Troll yakking about lately? Oh, yeah, a Series 2 upgrade which would support OTA STB tuners for TiVo's mass-market.

Sheeit!

Obviously that will never fly.

Or will it? Maybe I'd better hold on to that Gift Card.


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## Fist of Death

I'm in for two! :up: :up:


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## stevereis

Where does this show up under after it's recorded? I just checked and I only have Hollywoodland on TiVo Central. 
Do I need to subscribe to the Tivolution showcase?


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## cap

I think it's hidden until Tivo tells your box to display the star icon.

So we will still have to wait to actually see this video.
The posters were just lucky enough to actually see the Tivo recording it.


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## TK421

It won't show up until TiVo sends a second set of instructions to your box. The download and display of showcases/yellow star items are separate.


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## sommerfeld

stevereis said:


> Where does this show up under after it's recorded?


The recording is hidden until a Tivo Higher Power gives the command to splice it into the menus.

If you can enable backdoors, you can use ThumbsDown ThumbsDown ThumbsUp InstantReplay from Now Playing to see the hidden recordings.

See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=122090 for the backdoor code list.


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## segaily

I am a little surprised but not shocked by this. TiVo get a little over a $100 transfer fee $199 - 1 year of service at 6.95. In many cases they may also get a series 1 taken out of service in a year that uses dial up for access and can not use the new features they are pushing and replace it with a box that is cheaper for them because it may connect using broadband. I bet TiVo would love to find a way to get all the lifetime series 1 out of service. With the series 2 they can at least try to lure people onto broadband to cut costs. With this offer I may well stop service on my series 1 in a year and replace it with a newer box. Without this offer I would most likely have kept my series 1 in service until my cable company shuts off analog.

I will however be shocked if they ever offer to sell new lifetime services. This lets them keep the total number of lifetimes the same and still make a little money.


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## HDTiVo

sommerfeld said:


> The recording is hidden until a Tivo Higher Power gives the command to splice it into the menus.
> 
> If you can enable backdoors, you can use ThumbsDown ThumbsDown ThumbsUp InstantReplay from Now Playing to see the hidden recordings.
> 
> See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=122090 for the backdoor code list.


Someone get this up on YouTube!!!!


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## sharp1

Actually, it looks to me like a way for TiVo to get some more revenue off of the existing lifetime subscriptions, and to encourage die-hard people to buy an early release rather than wait for the price to drop.

They aren't supporting any more lifetime subscriptions than they are now, but they have found a way to get more money from the already existing ones.

I could see this offer being repeated for each new major hardware release.

I am still undecided until I see street prices and more offer details. But this does make it a possibility for me where before it was not likely... (Plus I don't have my HDTV yet. 2007 will be the year of the HD TV for me!)


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## HDTiVo

Does the one year free service on the old box require a one year commitment? :he he:


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## ZeoTiVo

TiVo Troll said:


> This Lifetime Service transfer for $200 illustrates perfectly how unreliable all the "informed" speculation on these Forums really is. But that stupid Forum Troll got ridiculed more than once for posting the bright idea that TiVo ought to price Lifetime Service @ $500! It essentially is, probably to test the market as well as reward existing customers!


I don't know so much about 500$ lifetime, though their is definite backlash on not having lifetime.

this 199$ offer though is a great win win as it does resell current lifetimes off of what will soon be legacy hardware onto the new platform. I think a key point is how surprised TiVo has been that people did not move off the series 1.
You can bet that series 1 lifetimes will be dropping like flies on this. Many series 2 will go as well. So they do it now while they command the best dollar for the S3 hardware and boost sales of S3.

The 12 month on the old box is cool but it will hurt any boost in subscriptions as they will have to specially account for the boxes given the 12 month ride.

but yes way to go TiVo on this offer and they may well sell me a S3 before 12/31 even though I was not ready to get one before then. Now we await the price


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## TechDreamer

It sucks that we will have to pay full retail for the S3 in order to take advantage of this deal. I think the S3 will still be $800 on 12-31.


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## MickeS

$1000 for a S3 with lifetime, free S2 service for a year and presumably $6.95/month thereafter ain't too bad...

I wonder if some people who bought Lifetime gift cards off of ebay will be pissed.


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## bap

I told you "never say never" when it comes to lifetime service. Just because they discontinued offering it doesn't mean they wouldn't allow some sort of grandfathering. This is what you all get for all your wild speculation! I hope you've all learned something now - it's always best to wait for the official announcement rather than attempting to second guess.


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## jacques

I've thought about going to the S3 just to keep up, but I don't have an HD TV nor do I have digital cable...... but if I do have 4 S1 machines with lifetime.

I think that it might make sense to take them up on their offer to upgrade one to the new S3 and do the $199 lifetime transfer.

Since it has dual-tuner I can upgrade one lifetime S1 to the S3 and sell one lifetime S1. I wonder what I will be able to get for a lifetime S1 on ebay after this $199 deal gets around.


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## ZeoTiVo

MickeS said:


> $1000 for a S3 with lifetime, free S2 service for a year and presumably $6.95/month thereafter ain't too bad...
> 
> I wonder if some people who bought Lifetime gift cards off of ebay will be pissed.


well yes and no, if they paid 500$ for it and apply it straight up to an S3 then it is the same result in a way, and they could still sell the legacy lifetimed box they have for a good return on the lifetime. If you paid 800$ then you paid too much.
But this move definitely puts value in the aftersell market. good on TiVo for keeping value in their brand even if some of that value goes to the customer and not the company.


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## HDTiVo

MickeS said:


> I wonder if some people who bought Lifetime gift cards off of ebay will be pissed.


Will the monthly subs who are struggling to keep TiVo alive be pissed that the blood sucking Lifetime [email protected] [email protected]@rd$ bent on TiVo's destruction are getting a special deal?


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## Turtleboy

I have a lifetime on my S2. If I get a S3, with the multi-unit discount, the fee on the S3 is 6.95 a month.

Or I can transfer the lifetime to the S3 and pay $199, get a year "free" on the S2, and then with the multi-series discount, I pay 6.95 a month.

Tivo is hoping some people are bad at math, which they obviously are.


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## MickeS

HDTiVo said:


> Will the monthly subs who are struggling to keep TiVo alive be pissed that the blood sucking Lifetime [email protected] [email protected]@rd$ bent on TiVo's destruction are getting a special deal?


That's another way to look at it I guess. 

But really, TiVo is essentially just getting $200 for nothing here... they will not lose monthly income to another lifetime, and they will be getting $200 more for providing the exact same service as today (well, excluding that one free year of service, which adds up to $84 in lost income). It's the best kind of deal, where both seller and buyer feel like winners.


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## TiVo Troll

cap said:


> I think it's hidden until Tivo tells your box to display the star icon.
> 
> So we will still have to wait to actually see this video.
> The posters were just lucky enough to actually see the Tivo recording it.


Interesting. That explains why those Teleworld "programs" are often such a jumble.

I have my Series 2 connected to a Philips HDRW 720/17 with a 6 hour live buffer constantly recording so I went back into the buffer and sure enough TiVo recorded the Teleworld program at 6:00 a.m. At 6:05, after Hollywoodland, there are several TiVoShannon segments including a Series 3 intro and then the Lifetime Service offer with a reference to www.tivo.com/vip (which isn't up yet) and a "VIP" 800# (866-424-8486) to order the Lifetime Service upgrade.

TiVoShannon specifically refers to this being a "one time upgrade offer to our most loyal subscribers". Activation must take place before Jan. 31, 2007 on Series 3's purchased before Dec. 31, 2006. Perhaps that's when there will be significant price reductions in the cost of the Series 3.


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## ZeoTiVo

HDTiVo said:


> Will the monthly subs who are struggling to keep TiVo alive be pissed that the blood sucking Lifetime [email protected] [email protected]@rd$ bent on TiVo's destruction are getting a special deal?


maybe next year when all monthly drops to 6.95 due to download services revenue and the desire to make bundle deals appeal to everyone then the Monthly sub folks will have their chance to laugh


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## ZeoTiVo

Turtleboy said:


> I have a lifetime on my S2. If I get a S3, with the multi-unit discount, the fee on the S3 is 6.95 a month.
> 
> Or I can transfer the lifetime to the S3 and pay $199, get a year "free" on the S2, and then with the multi-series discount, I pay 6.95 a month.
> 
> Tivo is hoping some people are bad at math, which they obviously are.


or hoping those people will just drop the S2 and S1 boxes and remove that lifetimed legacy burden from TiVo inc.


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## lessd

MickeS said:


> $1000 for a S3 with lifetime, free S2 service for a year and presumably $6.95/month thereafter ain't too bad...
> 
> I wonder if some people who bought Lifetime gift cards off of ebay will be pissed.


It not such a big loss, I sold a series 2 40h TiVo with lifetime within the last three months for $465 on E-Bay. If I had used that money to buy a Gift Card the net cost to me would have been about $130 (I did not do this but I could have) My Series 3 with lifetime would then have cost me $X (series 3 actual cost that we do not know yet, rebates discounts etc) + $130 and I would NOT have one Series 2 TiVo with lifetime. With the TiVo deal the Series 3 Will cost me the same $X + $200 and I would still have a Series 2 with a year of service on it. I would guess that would be worth about $100. So I may have lost $30 or $40 bucks on the gift card buy, not too big a deal. (I assumes $595 for the gift card if someone paid $700 it will cost them another $105 more in loss)


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## Shawn95GT

Hmm.. as an owner of 3x lifetimed S2s.... I'm seriously thinking I'd be dumb not to jump on the promotion and pick up 3x S3s, sell one for a bazillion dollars and pay MSD after the promo for anys S2s I feel the need to used after a year.


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## HDTiVo

MickeS said:


> But really, TiVo is essentially just getting $200 for nothing here...


But they are extending Lifetime to the Lifetime of the S3 from the Lifetime of the S2.


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## segaily

Turtleboy said:


> I have a lifetime on my S2. If I get a S3, with the multi-unit discount, the fee on the S3 is 6.95 a month.
> 
> Or I can transfer the lifetime to the S3 and pay $199, get a year "free" on the S2, and then with the multi-series discount, I pay 6.95 a month.
> 
> Tivo is hoping some people are bad at math, which they obviously are.


Yes and no. We are paying TiVo and extra $100 but in exchange we are hopefully getting a box we will want to keep in service longer. At this point I still have older Non HD TVs along with my main HDTV. Someday all my TVS will be HD and I may no longer want my standard definition TiVo in service. I may well keep my old TiVo in service until it dies, but without lifetime on the old box it will make it easier to just purchase a new box instead of getting the old box fixed.


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## HDTiVo

Turtleboy said:


> I have a lifetime on my S2. If I get a S3, with the multi-unit discount, the fee on the S3 is 6.95 a month.
> 
> Or I can transfer the lifetime to the S3 and pay $199, get a year "free" on the S2, and then with the multi-series discount, I pay 6.95 a month.
> 
> Tivo is hoping some people are bad at math, which they obviously are.


But perhaps not the ones you think.


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## cmaasfamily

For those that have seen it: 

Did they mention eSATA drive/external expansion? Would be a conspicuous omission if not; probably indicating that it is not enabled in the initial release.


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## George Cifranci

SnakeEyes said:


> I wish I had gottten lifetime on my S1 box.


Well I DID get a Lifetime on my original Series 1 (still in use). Yippie!!!

I have been waiting for the Series 3 ever since I bought a 60" Sony SXRD HDTV about a year ago and had to deal with Time Warners craptacular SA 8300HD DVR.

So after I switch the Series 3 over to Lifetime that means I will have a Tivo Series 1 and a Series 2 that I will have to pay $6.95 a month on each I guess. Might have to retire good ole Series 1 (after the free 12 months expires).


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## jsmeeker

Heh...

What do you guys do? Check your TiVo the first thing in the morning for updates??


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## Bierboy

sharp1 said:


> Actually, it looks to me like a way for TiVo to get some more revenue off of the existing lifetime subscriptions, and to encourage die-hard people to buy an early release rather than wait for the price to drop.
> 
> They aren't supporting any more lifetime subscriptions than they are now, but they have found a way to get more money from the already existing ones....





MickeS said:


> ...But really, TiVo is essentially just getting $200 for nothing here... they will not lose monthly income to another lifetime, and they will be getting $200 more for providing the exact same service as today (well, excluding that one free year of service, which adds up to $84 in lost income). It's the best kind of deal, where both seller and buyer feel like winners.


Everybody says what a great deal this is, but, as MickeS points out, TiVo stands to gain almost everything on this.



jsmeeker said:


> Heh...
> 
> What do you guys do? Check your TiVo the first thing in the morning for updates??


Some people have NOTHING better to do


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## ah30k

For TiVo this offer is aimed at a real small target. Those who will likely take them up on this offer already have a lifetime unit on their account and would have only paid $6.95 for the new S3. For instance, many of us on this forum would keep our old lifetime S1s on life support in the basement taking a slow breath twice a year just to gain the MSD.

For this small target they gain $200 and lose $6.95 per month. Probably a good trade. 

If they made a one-time lifetime purchase available to everyone they would likely have lost some $12.95 monthly subscribers as well.


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## dig_duggler

Wow. I was so not getting an s3. But my old s2 w/ lifetime won't last long..

so tempting...


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## ah30k

Since we are so good at hypotheticals...

What if they charged you $200 to transfer AND you lose a hypothetical $150 rebate because it is not a new activation?

Would you shell out $350 to transfer?


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## cjw2001

cmaasfamily said:


> For those that have seen it:
> 
> Did they mention eSATA drive/external expansion? Would be a conspicuous omission if not; probably indicating that it is not enabled in the initial release.


No mention in the video on the drive expansion, but they did go over the digital video and audio interfaces.


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## cjw2001

jsmeeker said:


> Heh...
> 
> What do you guys do? Check your TiVo the first thing in the morning for updates??


Just lucky -- alarm clock goes off at 6 am, turn on TV, there it was.


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## ZeoTiVo

ah30k said:


> Since we are so good at hypotheticals...
> 
> What if they charged you $200 to transfer AND you lose a hypothetical $150 rebate because it is not a new activation?
> 
> Would you shell out $350 to transfer?


that is what I am waiting on now, the pricing of the new one will be key in my decision since I have a 240 lifetimed that I very much like and was planning to hack with TiVoweb soon.

and like Mickes says - they will not be making any nore revenue on that S2 of mine so for TiVo it is 200$ from me for nothing from them *but* the chance to not pay monthly on an s3 I likely could have for quite a while to come. so 199/6.95 = 28 months of value to me but make it 350 upfront and then it is 50 months before I see "value" (net present stuff aside for now) which not coincidentally is the 4 year period TiVo amortizes such deals over.

I do not count the 12 months on S2 as having much value to me since the S3 would go downstairs and the DT would go upstairs. TiVo does not count much value on the free 12 months either since they never would have gotten it anyway. 
With more thinking it seems tha the 12 months is designed to keep people from selling the TiVo and that TiVo inc. really hopes the legacy stuff just dies off. Sereis 1 TiVo DVRs defeinitely do not fit into the whole feature set that TiVo hopes to work some revenue out of. Any business partenr would just subtract that number anyway as having no value.

Wonder if you can sell the TiVo and the 12 months go with it?


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## MickeS

If they had not allowed LT transfers, the customers targeted here would have kept their S1/2 lifetimes and then paid $6.95 for the S3, for the duration of the life of the S3 (most likely), which will probably be more than $200 total.

As it is, I'm guessing a lot of people will drop the S1/2 subs after the free year, so TiVo will only get the one-time sum of $200, and be out a year of service for S2.

TiVo must have really wanted to boost sales and get some cash quickly, and must also badly want to get rid of the old TiVos....


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## Dajad

Wow! Great news!

It's not just increased subscription revenue, TiVo's newer (and upcoming) products/revenue streams (like interactive ads and movie downloads) will increasinlgy require S3 power and storage space. So, getting the faithful early adopters to the new platform means better revenue opportunities for TiVo down the line. Ka-ching! That's a smart move TiVo.

Remember that the S3 will not record from digital settops, it only records off OTA-HD, Cablecard-digatal and analogue through COAX. That will take a whole lot of folks relying on set-tops out of the equation. Well, unless they have plans to upgrade to cablecard or OTA-HD over the next year, in which case it should be full steam ahead because they could use their old Tivo to record off set-tops in the interim.

Damn, I still think it would have been so much smarter for TiVo to allow recroding off s-video-connected set-tops in the S3 as people make the transition!!!!

...Dale


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## osterber

This sounds like a great opportunity for me. I activated my S1 Sony lifetime in February 2001. It's been running like a champ with an additional hard drive... but I feel like it's getting ready to die. So is my old 27" tube TV. I've certainly gotten my lifetime use out of my S1... so in my book, transferring it to an S3 for $199 is just like offering me lifetime service straight up for $199, which is what I paid 5.5 years ago for lifetime. 

-Rick


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## MickeS

Dajad said:


> Damn, I still think it would have been so much smarter for TiVo to allow recroding off s-video-connected set-tops in the S3 as people make the transition!!!!


I think that developing that funcitonality in the S3 would have been a waste of time and money for TiVo. You can still use the S3 to record regular non-digital cable without a CableCARD, and it wouldn't have been worth it to do that just for the few who want to keep the digital cable box instead of getting a CableCARD.


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## tunnelengineer

I think this is a great deal. I have a S1 and S2 both lifetimed that I can upgrade with the S1 lifetime now. I can still use the S1 in the bedroom for another year (which is a $83 dollar value at MSD rates). So basically I am paying $120 to have lifetime on a new S3. After 18 months of use I am making out great on the deal. My old S1 tivo can be retired after the free year and I will live in a S2 and S3 tivo home and have access to both on the web. It's a no brainer for me.


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## ZeoTiVo

Dajad said:


> Well, unless they have plans to upgrade to cablecard or OTA-HD over the next year, in which case it should be full steam ahead because they could use their old Tivo to record off set-tops in the interim.
> 
> Damn, I still think it would have been so much smarter for TiVo to allow recroding off s-video-connected set-tops in the S3 as people make the transition!!!!
> 
> ...Dale


why have the S3 do it. The TiVo you have now is free for 12 months - let it do what it is doing with no interruption and then you have time to deal with getting the cable company to come out, install the cable card, come back , get it right etc...

The 12 month free thing is also a beautiful transition to get over the cable card transition hurdle :up: there is an upside to both TiVo and us with this offer.


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## bpurcell

Wow, I wake up this morning thinking nothing much is happening, and then I see THIS!

Sucks for me, since I sold my lifetime 540 just last week on Ebay! If I'd known they would do this, I definitely would've held off.


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## MickeS

The resale value of a LT S3 should be pretty good...


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## sbiller

MickeS said:


> If they had not allowed LT transfers, the customers targeted here would have kept their S1/2 lifetimes and then paid $6.95 for the S3, for the duration of the life of the S3 (most likely), which will probably be more than $200 total.
> 
> As it is, I'm guessing a lot of people will drop the S1/2 subs after the free year, so TiVo will only get the one-time sum of $200, and be out a year of service for S2.
> 
> TiVo must have really wanted to boost sales and get some cash quickly, and must also badly want to get rid of the old TiVos....


My guess is that at $800 ($500 cost) per S3 box, TiVo is not losing any money on the hardware thus driving adoption of the more advance platform without an additional cost to TiVo. In addition, they will save money on monthly costs of dial-up for lifetime S1's without a broadband connection if those users convert to broadband. If they decide to subsidize the hardare cost again with rebates, etc., then the benefit to TiVo diminishes.


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## HDTiVo

Just want to ask, what is generating the premise that an S3 with this deal can't be purchased in the same manner(s) for the same price(s) as any other S3 and get the same $150 Rebate (if so) as any other S3?


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## jeffrypennock

So is this VIP website the site where I'm going to buy the box or the site where I'm going to transfer my lifetime subscription or both?

Same set of questions for the phone number.


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## ah30k

HDTiVo said:


> Just want to ask, what is generating the premise that an S3 with this deal can't be purchased in the same manner(s) for the same price(s) as any other S3 and get the same $150 Rebate (if so) as any other S3?


Rebates are valid only for NEW subscriptions. For instance back around the launch of the DT you could have bought a lifetime on an old S2 then within 30 days transfer it to the DT, but the catch was the rebate was invalid. A transfer is not a new subscription.


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## cjw2001

jeffrypennock said:


> So is this VIP website the site where I'm going to buy the box or the site where I'm going to transfer my lifetime subscription or both?
> 
> Same set of questions for the phone number.


The video said the phone hotline was for doing the transfer.

The web site (once it is up) will have the details of the offer and the link to buy a box.


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## headroll

I have 4 LT TiVos in the house. 

Wonder if there will be any limitations on 
1) how many times the offer can be used and 
2) If you must have lifetime for any extended period of time on your account (disallowing sale of LT TiVos at a premium on Ebay)

-Roll


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## colforbin13

Has anyone tried calling the number yet?


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## MickeS

colforbin13 said:


> Has anyone tried calling the number yet?


What would be the point of that without an S3 to transfer to?


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## Riverdome

MickeS said:


> What would be the point of that without an S3 to transfer to?


To hear Shannon's voice? j/k


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## classicsat

cmaasfamily said:


> For those that have seen it:
> 
> Did they mention eSATA drive/external expansion? Would be a conspicuous omission if not; probably indicating that it is not enabled in the initial release.


It wouldn't be, it would be technical minutia not worth flogging yet, although yes, it may not be enabled in the released software versions, although I have a feeling that in might be "hidden" like G support was in the first 7.1, and announced later as official drives are available.


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## jeffrypennock

colforbin13 said:


> Has anyone tried calling the number yet?


Yeah, once you get someone on the line, they're like 'um, this is to transfer service or if you've got problems with the cablecard, but it's not for sale yet.'

So I didn't want to waste the opportunity...she obviously wasn't your regular CSR because she answered "hello?" rather than some schpeal, so I played dumb and was like, "Oh, I thought this is where we called to order it. When will it be for sale?"

She tersely responded, "We don't know yet."


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## vman41

My nephew is buying a house and I was planning on giving him my lifetimed series 2 as a housewarming gift. The option to transfer the the lifetime may make me reconsider. I'll stop using the S2 either way, so the calculations are based on standard subscription rate and not MSD.


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## tunnelengineer

The real question is - Did she sound hot?


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## jeffrypennock

tunnelengineer said:


> The real question is - Did she sound hot?


That's definitely _not_ the question.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

tunnelengineer said:


> The real question is - Did she sound hot?


she sounded annoyed that people knew the number already to me


----------



## HDTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> she sounded annoyed that people knew the number already to me


Heaven forbid people interested in doing business with TiVo should be welcome.


----------



## jeffrypennock

HDTiVo said:


> Heaven forbid people interested in doing business with TiVo should be welcome.


Point well made. And he's right, she DID sound agitated.


----------



## annenoe

ZeoTiVo said:


> she sounded annoyed that people knew the number already to me


Are they so out of touch that they didn't think anyone would be awake at 3 am to see the recording? Well duh. If we see them advertising it and putting up phone numbers and websites, what do they think we're going to do. Would love to be a fly on the wall at the tivo cafeteria today. Lots of "WTF were they thinking???"


----------



## MickeS

Maybe they didn't think people would be calling to transfer service to a unit that nobody owns?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

annenoe said:


> Are they so out of touch that they didn't think anyone would be awake at 3 am to see the recording? Well duh. If we see them advertising it and putting up phone numbers and websites, what do they think we're going to do. Would love to be a fly on the wall at the tivo cafeteria today. Lots of "WTF were they thinking???"


on one TiVo I record the teleworld just out of curiosity. Had not looked at it today though


----------



## jfh3

If true, I have some crow to eat for lunch. 

I was pretty sure Tivo would never offer such a deal.

But $199? Even less than the original $299 lifetime? Why?


----------



## Shawn95GT

jfh3 said:


> If true, I have some crow to eat for lunch.
> 
> I was pretty sure Tivo would never offer such a deal.
> 
> But $199? Even less than the original $299 lifetime? Why?


Because we already paid for LT once before?


----------



## bap

Shawn95GT said:


> Because we already paid for LT once before?


My thoughts exactly. They want to make some money from people upgrading older lifetimed units but don't want to make it so expensive that people won't do it. It's free money for them and a good way to get more S3 early adopters.


----------



## AJRitz

Does this mean that if I can find a Humax DVD Tivo unit in stock somewhere that I could purchase lifetime on the new, never before subbed, Humax unit and then transfer it to an S3 box?


----------



## Bierboy

jfh3 said:


> If true, I have some crow to eat for lunch.
> 
> I was pretty sure Tivo would never offer such a deal.
> 
> But $199? Even less than the original $299 lifetime? Why?


Because it's PURE PROFIT....they already got your $299. Now they're gettin' another $199.


----------



## HiDefGator

It's also a way for Tivo to keep their sub counts up for another 12 months. A large number of the S3 buyers would have canceled their old S1\2 subs shortly after buying the S3. This keeps both subs active for 12 months. The next two quarters are going to look very bad for Tivo as DTV subs drop away and no new Comcast \Cox subs show up until early 2007.


----------



## JustAllie

AJRitz said:


> Does this mean that if I can find a Humax DVD Tivo unit in stock somewhere that I could purchase lifetime on the new, never before subbed, Humax unit and then transfer it to an S3 box?


Apparently yes, which means that the _de facto_ price of lifetime on a Series3 TiVo is $498.

I think people who were paying $600+ for the lifetime gift cards on eBay are gonna be upset. 

I already have three TiVos with lifetime service. That gives me lots of options.


----------



## jsmeeker

jfh3 said:


> If true, I have some crow to eat for lunch.
> 
> I was pretty sure Tivo would never offer such a deal.
> 
> But $199? Even less than the original $299 lifetime? Why?


The original cost for lifetime was $199, not $299.


----------



## petew

JustAllie said:


> Apparently yes, which means that the _de facto_ price of lifetime on a Series3 TiVo is $498.


It depends `how you look at it. Add in the cost of the Humax and a possible $150 rebate that you're not eligble for and it could be nearer $800


----------



## MickeS

HiDefGator said:


> It's also a way for Tivo to keep their sub counts up for another 12 months. A large number of the S3 buyers would have canceled their old S1\2 subs shortly after buying the S3. This keeps both subs active for 12 months.


This only applies to LT S1/2, so they would not have cancelled those subs. Instead they would have kept them and gotten the MSD on the S3. The sub count will not change.


----------



## JustAllie

petew said:


> It depends `how you look at it. Add in the cost of the Humax and a possible $150 rebate that you're not eligble for and it could be nearer $800


Hmm, the rebate is an open question for sure, but you'd have to subtract out the resale value of a Humax DVD TiVo with one year of service. Or the value to you of using that TiVo as a secondary machine for a year.


----------



## Dajad

MickeS said:


> I think that developing that funcitonality in the S3 would have been a waste of time and money for TiVo. You can still use the S3 to record regular non-digital cable without a CableCARD, and it wouldn't have been worth it to do that just for the few who want to keep the digital cable box instead of getting a CableCARD.





ZeoTiVo said:


> why have the S3 do it. The TiVo you have now is free for 12 months - let it do what it is doing with no interruption and then you have time to deal with getting the cable company to come out, install the cable card, come back , get it right etc...
> 
> The 12 month free thing is also a beautiful transition to get over the cable card transition hurdle :up: there is an upside to both TiVo and us with this offer.


Because ALL Canadians like me and all the U.S. TiVo users NOT supplied by a major MSO - still al lot of cable users, do not have cablecards as an option and likely won't for years to come.

Yes, the 12 months is a terrific option for people living in areas where cablecards are out now or due out in the next 12 months.

...Dale


----------



## MickeS

Dajad said:


> Because ALL Canadians like me and all the U.S. TiVo users NOT supplied by a major MSO - still al lot of cable users, do not have cablecards as an option and likely won't for years to come.


I don't know how it is in Canada, but I'm pretty sure the cable company, no matter the size, HAS to by law provide CableCARDS to those who ask for it.


----------



## cwoody222

There are exceptions for smaller cable companies, they don't have to supply the CableCARDS. But we're talking about a small percentage of the cable market in the US.


----------



## d_anders

bap said:


> My thoughts exactly. They want to make some money from people upgrading older lifetimed units but don't want to make it so expensive that people won't do it. It's free money for them and a good way to get more S3 early adopters.


Agreed. It also provides an incentive for people who were going to wait until the initial price drop or wait for a relatively good rebate.

*Box must be purchased by December 31, 2006 and lifetime transfer by January 31, 2007.* You can bet there will be a reduction in price of the unit or a rebate offered in the Feburary/March timeframe.

I, for one, was certainly going to wait, but with the carrot of moving over lifetime to a Series 3 unit (albeit at a cost) before the end of the year, even with a potential drop in price via rebate, etc., getting lifetime and a year sub on the existing S1/S2 box all for $199 is a good deal.

Rather than waiting for the first $100-$200 price reduction, they're going to get people to give them an additional $200 in revenue on top of a fully loaded early adopter price. So, it's safe to say that they're going to get close to a $400 premium anyway from a likely reduced/rebated price in February/March 2007.

To an earlier point made by someone else, it also provides a way for Tivo to actually maintain and increase the number of subs. Since this would actually net out one additional "sub" based on the 12 months included on the older S1/S2 box...versus people dropping S1/S2 standard subs to add one S/3 sub back in (net zero increase otherwise). Good move for them with Wall Street, given the likely year over year reduction/loss in the overall growth of the DirectTV numbers.

So it's save to say that the offer is going to provide TiVo a good margin on revenue for these boxes, increase the adoption of the new box (which I believe they're going to actually make money on the hardware side on for a while, until they get the early adopter purchasing completed), and also give them additional net subscriptions.

It's all upside for TiVo, and pleases a number of their existing customers who will love the option of having "lifetime" on their new S3s, and can keep their existing boxes or give them as gifts to someone else.


----------



## TiVo Troll

jeffrypennock said:


> So is this VIP website the site where I'm going to buy the box or the site where I'm going to transfer my lifetime subscription or both?
> 
> Same set of questions for the phone number.


In the Teleworld promo TiVoShannan referred to buying the Series 3 at the VIP website, but didn't explicitly rule out buying one elsewhere. So, as best as I can tell the definitive answer to your first question isn't known for sure. It will be interesting to see how the Series 3 price on TiVo's website compares with prices elsewhere.

She definitely said that the phone number would be where to transfer the service.

(I haven't read all the way through this thread yet, so if I'm repeating info that has been already posted, my apologies.)


----------



## AJRitz

petew said:



> It depends `how you look at it. Add in the cost of the Humax and a possible $150 rebate that you're not eligble for and it could be nearer $800


Yeah, those Humax boxes are pricer than I'd hoped - I hadn't looked that up before my last post. OTOH, my two hacked S2 DTivo boxes might have some value for folks who are sticking with DirecTV for a while. They're both Zippered and expanded, and I understand that such units are getting a bit scarce. I might be able to make back some of the difference on E-Bay.


----------



## gbronzer

My question is how does this affect people planning on using the grandfather clause with the S3. I have a lifetime for my S1 from Dec. 1999, and was planning on using the Grandfather clause to transfer my lifetime for free to a new S3. Can I still do this, or do I have to pay $199?

I can just imagine the confusion trying to convince a service rep I don't have to pay $199 for my lifetime transfer.


----------



## TiVo Troll

TechDreamer said:


> It sucks that we will have to pay full retail for the S3 in order to take advantage of this deal. I think the S3 will still be $800 on 12-31.


Fuggen gift horse got lousy teeth, eh?


----------



## golubian

I have two questions:

1. Will I be able to transfer my lifetime on a DirecTV SAT-T60?; and

2. If I transfer lifetime from one DirecTivo unit to an S3, what is the cost for service on a second S3 unit? Or does it make sense to transfer lifetime service from both of my SAT-T60's? (ok, I guess that's technically 3 questions).

golubian


----------



## Dan203

gbronzer said:


> My question is how does this affect people planning on using the grandfather clause with the S3. I have a lifetime for my S1 from Dec. 1999, and was planning on using the Grandfather clause to transfer my lifetime for free to a new S3. Can I still do this, or do I have to pay $199?
> 
> I can just imagine the confusion trying to convince a service rep I don't have to pay $199 for my lifetime transfer.


This should have no effect on the grandfather clause. And if you run into trouble convincing the CSR that you don't have to pay ask to talk to a superior.

Dan


----------



## Dan203

golubian said:


> 1. Will I be able to transfer my lifetime on a DirecTV SAT-T60?; and
> 
> 2. If I transfer lifetime from one DirecTivo unit to an S3, what is the cost for service on a second S3 unit? Or does it make sense to transfer lifetime service from both of my SAT-T60's? (ok, I guess that's technically 3 questions).


I seriously doubt this will work for DTiVo units as the billing portion of the DTiVo units was transfered to DirecTV a long time ago.

Dan


----------



## TiVo Troll

JustAllie said:


> Apparently yes, which means that the _de facto_ price of lifetime on a Series3 TiVo is $498.
> 
> I think people who were paying $600+ for the lifetime gift cards on eBay are gonna be upset.
> 
> I already have three TiVos with lifetime service. That gives me lots of options.


I'm not upset at all. If I lose on the Gift Card, so what? "Caveat Emptor!"

Also, I'm glad when TiVo's interests line up with mine! If the price of the Series 3 holds at $800 for the duration of this special offer that will mean that I'll be able to add $1000 to TiVo's revenue stream and still have a Gift Card good for more than two additional years.

I'd never buy Series 3 or any TiVo unless the service was included in the price. ReplayTV's original service plan was good and simple even if ultimately it was too honest to be successful.

IMHO, TiVo is going to get a jolt of cash upfront and then significantly lower Series 3's price and get more pay-as-you-go users. As earlier posters have *said* many existing TiVo owners will also choose to pay monthly, but they'll be advised to wait until 2007 to buy a Series 3. So TiVo has figured a pretty good way to maximize cash flow at the same time as dealing with potential distribution and availability issues!


----------



## Jonathan_S

golubian said:


> I have two questions:
> 
> 1. Will I be able to transfer my lifetime on a DirecTV SAT-T60?; and
> 
> 2. If I transfer lifetime from one DirecTivo unit to an S3, what is the cost for service on a second S3 unit? Or does it make sense to transfer lifetime service from both of my SAT-T60's? (ok, I guess that's technically 3 questions).
> 
> golubian


TiVo lifetime and DirecTV DVR with TiVo lifetime are two separate products, the later being handled directly by DirecTV. I'd be hugely surprised if you could transfer a DirecTV lifetime to an S3.

Assuming you have one S3 either lifetime or paying full monthly fee, I would expect the second to cost $6.99 / month, the normal TiVo multi-unit discount rate.

(DirecTV lifetime is per account, not per unit, so I don't think you would be seen as having two lifetime service subscriptions. However, since you can't transfer it anyway that is a moot point).

Final note: S3s won't work with DirecTV, only with cable and antenna. Just wanted to make sure you were aware.


----------



## greg_burns

Dan203 said:


> This should have no effect on the grandfather clause. And if you run into trouble convincing the CSR that you don't have to pay ask to talk to a superior.
> 
> Dan


Or try...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723


> If you have any trouble when you call, please mention KDB code 09-07-04 to the agent.


----------



## TiVo Troll

annenoe said:


> Are they so out of touch that they didn't think anyone would be awake at 3 am to see the recording? Well duh. If we see them advertising it and putting up phone numbers and websites, what do they think we're going to do. Would love to be a fly on the wall at the tivo cafeteria today. Lots of "WTF were they thinking???"


TiVo should realize that the cat's out of the bag and have a gracious voice answer a single phone at the 800# and patiently answer any questions that come in. Resulting busy signals will take care of an undue volume of calls, but having one gracious live person to field questions would be well worth paying the going wage for.


----------



## golubian

Jonathan_S said:


> TiVo lifetime and DirecTV DVR with TiVo lifetime are two separate products, the later being handled directly by DirecTV. I'd be hugely surprised if you could transfer a DirecTV lifetime to an S3.
> 
> Assuming you have one S3 either lifetime or paying full monthly fee, I would expect the second to cost $6.99 / month, the normal TiVo multi-unit discount rate.
> 
> (DirecTV lifetime is per account, not per unit, so I don't think you would be seen as having two lifetime service subscriptions. However, since you can't transfer it anyway that is a moot point).
> 
> Final note: S3s won't work with DirecTV, only with cable and antenna. Just wanted to make sure you were aware.


You may be right about the only one lifetime issue. My two boxes have been running nonstop for over 5 years now (  ), so at this point I really don't recall whether it was one lifetime subscription or two. That said, there would be some benefit to allowing me to transfer that lifetime sub if only to make some money off me that they will not realize so long as I remain on the satellite system. Also, I assume I'd then need to pay $6.95/month for my second S3 box, so that's another stream of income they want but aren't currently getting.

It's all academic, though, since I eventually WILL make the switch back over to cable in order to get the S3.

Also, I do know S3 is cable only. I'm planning on making the switch away from DirecTV sometime next year. IF I could transfer my DTV lifetime and IF that needed to happen before year's end, I would accelerate the transition.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Dajad said:


> Because ALL Canadians like me and all the U.S. TiVo users NOT supplied by a major MSO - still al lot of cable users, do not have cablecards as an option and likely won't for years to come.
> 
> Yes, the 12 months is a terrific option for people living in areas where cablecards are out now or due out in the next 12 months.
> 
> ...Dale


sorry, I forgot your Canadian address. Yes that is a porblem but to my thinking falls under the market segment of such a size they will have to work with the currnent S2 to do SD recording in Canada. I assume you can use the S3 for OTA and analog recordings still. So the 12 months buys you some time but I suppose if I lived in Canada I would keep lifetime on the S2 if I had it and go MSD on the S3 if I thought it worth the money to do OTA and analog cable.


----------



## Bierboy

golubian said:


> ...Also, I do know S3 is cable only....


Not true...it does OTA also.


----------



## bap

gbronzer said:


> My question is how does this affect people planning on using the grandfather clause with the S3. I have a lifetime for my S1 from Dec. 1999, and was planning on using the Grandfather clause to transfer my lifetime for free to a new S3. Can I still do this, or do I have to pay $199?
> 
> I can just imagine the confusion trying to convince a service rep I don't have to pay $199 for my lifetime transfer.


I'm in the same boat as you are. Luckily TivoPony outlined exactly what to do in a post a while back. I just tracked down that post here. In a nutshell, when you call to active your new TiVo mention KDB code 09-07-04 to the agent. That'll probably point them to whatever documentation they need to verify the status of a free lifetime transfer.


----------



## Troy J B

Another positive aspect for TiVo, it does not increase the number of lifetime devices out in the wild. 
Now instead of LT S2 going on the market as people get S3's, those will be S2's that now need a year commitment. it's a win-win for TiVo


----------



## jsmeeker

Troy J B said:


> Another positive aspect for TiVo, it does not increase the number of lifetime devices out in the wild.


Well, it does temporarily do that.


----------



## Dan203

jsmeeker said:


> Well, it does temporarily do that.


No it doesn't. It gives people a free year of service, but that service is counted as monthly service, so the number of lifetime subs in the wild is still exactly the same.

Dan


----------



## jsmeeker

Dan203 said:


> No it doesn't. It gives people a free year of service, but that service is counted as monthly service, so the number of lifetime subs in the wild is still exactly the same.
> 
> Dan


ahh.. I see.. If that's how they account for it, then I suppose you are right. The way I was looking at it was that my lifetime Series 1 would still work and my Series 3 would be working, of course.


----------



## cjw2001

cwoody222 said:


> There are exceptions for smaller cable companies, they don't have to supply the CableCARDS. But we're talking about a small percentage of the cable market in the US.


Ouch. Just called my cable company (we have our own small private telco just for our subdivision of 1000 homes that does phone, cable, internet, etc.) and they are not supporting cables cards yet.


----------



## eisenb11

Hmm, I've just put my plan into motion... since I'm new to this Tivo stuff (I used RTV previously, then my SA crap box from TWC) please let me know if you see any holes in my evil plan.

I just arranged to purchase a used Sony S1 Tivo box for $40 tonight. I called Tivo with the serial and they verified that it has a lifetime on it.

This is where my master plan gets a little foggy.

Option A:

It sounds like when the S3 is released I'll be able to x-fer the lifetime from the S1 for $199.

Option B:

I can used the S1 to get a multi-discount and pay $6.99/month. $199 / $6.99 = 29, so it would take a while for it to pay off... 

Option C:

Grandfather clause the thing?

So I have 2 questions...

Under the given circumstances I have two questions:

1. Is it worth $199 to be done with it, or is it better to ping away at $6.99 for 29 months?

2. Can you tell me more about this "grandfather clause"? Is there some way to get the Sony S1's lifetime subscription transferred for free somehow?

Any help would be appreciated, I can't wait to join the Tivo club!


----------



## davezatz

Anyone have a screen grab for me?  Feel free to email me at [email protected]. Thanks! (My fiance killed the recording this morning when I was in the shower - she doesn't care for early morning infomercials.)


----------



## ah30k

The GF clause is for units activated prior to 1/20/2000. I don't think the sony was around then.


----------



## bap

eisenb11 said:


> Can you tell me more about this "grandfather clause"? Is there some way to get the Sony S1's lifetime subscription transferred for free somehow?


If the original lifetime service was purchased on or before January 21, 2000 then you are eligible for a one-time transfer of that lifetime service to a new unit. Just log into your account on tivo.com and check the date of the lifetime service.


----------



## miller890

cjw2001 said:


> www.tivo.com/vip to buy the box (page is not up yet).


Looks like Tivo just redirected request for the /VIP page to the existing Coming Soon page.


----------



## Dan203

eisenb11 said:


> I just arranged to purchase a used Sony S1 Tivo box for $40 tonight. I called Tivo with the serial and they verified that it has a lifetime on it.


I hope this is from a trusted source and not an eBay deal, because a S1 with lifetime service is worth 5 times that on eBay so it could be a scam.

Dan


----------



## Fraser+Dief

Dajad said:


> Because ALL Canadians like me and all the U.S. TiVo users NOT supplied by a major MSO - still al lot of cable users, do not have cablecards as an option and likely won't for years to come.


Yup. Making this a short term offer really sucks.

By the time Cablecard gets here (if ever), the offer is long gone, and so am I as a tivo customer.

Not smart.


----------



## jfh3

AJRitz said:


> Does this mean that if I can find a Humax DVD Tivo unit in stock somewhere that I could purchase lifetime on the new, never before subbed, Humax unit and then transfer it to an S3 box?


If this is true, yes.

But that might be a bit expensive - $249+299+$199 = $747 or so for LT on a Series 3 and a year on the Humax.

Unless you want the Humax box as a second box, that's almost 9 years at MSD cost for the S3 service or 5 years if the S3 is your only Tivo.


----------



## eisenb11

ah30k said:


> The GF clause is for units activated prior to 1/20/2000. I don't think the sony was around then.


Ah, if that's the case, I think I still did ok. Basically, the $40 then allows me to buy the lifetime for $199... so $249 for a contract that sold for $299 still works in my book


----------



## Bierboy

miller890 said:


> Looks like Tivo just redirected request for the /VIP page to the existing Coming Soon page.


Already posted.


----------



## eisenb11

Dan203 said:


> I hope this is from a trusted source and not an eBay deal, because a S1 with lifetime service is worth 5 times that on eBay so it could be a scam.
> 
> Dan


Aye, it's not from eBay, but from the classifieds so it's a "real world" transaction.

He lost the remote and figured the unit was worthless.

Didn't know it's the serial number that us A/V junkies are interested in


----------



## DancnDude

I was not planning on buying the Series 3 right away since I don't have an HDTV yet, but I want to get both in the coming year. I'm happy with my current TiVos and didn't really need more, but this deal pretty much hooked me. I'll probably now transfer my Series 1 so I can network the Series 3 and transfer shows to my Series 2 machines as well. 

So for me, this promo has gotten me interested in Series 3 a lot earlier than I would have been if I would have to pay monthly.


----------



## jes218

So I have two S2's (a 160 & a 540) with lifetime service and upgraded HD's. I don't use either of them because I have Comcast and use the SA8000HD. The 160 is currently on Ebay, listed for Best Offer. I was going to list the 540 next.

Any suggestions? Should I finish the sale of of the first one, and hold onto the second one to get the lifetime on the new S3?


----------



## surge

What are the chances that the S3 box will be able to handle 2-way cable-cards?
Is that a firmware upgrade thing or actual hardware changes?

I use the Comcast VOD service for all the HBO shows, movies and kids programming.


----------



## Shawn95GT

jes218 said:


> So I have two S2's (a 160 & a 540) with lifetime service and upgraded HD's. I don't use either of them because I have Comcast and use the SA8000HD. The 160 is currently on Ebay, listed for Best Offer. I was going to list the 540 next.
> 
> Any suggestions? Should I finish the sale of of the first one, and hold onto the second one to get the lifetime on the new S3?


If a lifetime subbed S3 is what you want, then yes .

If you can live with 1 S3 then you should weigh the vaue of the lifetimed S2 vs a Lifetimed S3 for resale. I'm thinking a Lifetimed S3 will pull a pretty penny.

I was concidering selling one of my Lifetimed S2s to offset the cost of the S3 but I think I'll just do 3x S3s and give one to my Mother. Yeah this makes the S2s nearly worthless but Lifetime subbed S3s + MSD for any S2s I want to keep around past 1yr sounds like a good deal.


----------



## JustAllie

jfh3 said:


> If this is true, yes.
> 
> But that might be a bit expensive - $249+299+$199 = $747 or so for LT on a Series 3 and a year on the Humax.
> 
> Unless you want the Humax box as a second box, that's almost 9 years at MSD cost for the S3 service or 5 years if the S3 is your only Tivo.


And if you don't want the Humax as a second box, you have to subtract the resale value of the Humax box with a year of service, which is surely worth at least $300 -- probably more like $350 if you don't even open the box when you activate it. So you're probably talking about about $400 net cost for lifetime on a Series 3.


----------



## jfh3

jes218 said:


> So I have two S2's (a 160 & a 540) with lifetime service and upgraded HD's. I don't use either of them because I have Comcast and use the SA8000HD. The 160 is currently on Ebay, listed for Best Offer. I was going to list the 540 next.
> 
> Any suggestions? Should I finish the sale of of the first one, and hold onto the second one to get the lifetime on the new S3?


Depends. Is lifetime on an S3 worth $200 over what you could get for the existing lifetime boxes on eBay?

It seems to be you're more likely to be better off selling existing lifetime boxes, assuming current prices hold up.


----------



## greg_burns

DancnDude said:


> I'll probably now transfer my Series 1 so I can network the Series 3 and transfer shows to my Series 2 machines as well.


AFAIK, this is not a given. Has anybody heard yet whether the S3 will support any sort of MRV?


----------



## cwoody222

greg_burns said:


> AFAIK, this is not a given. Has anybody heard yet whether the S3 will support any sort of MRV?


I think the general consensus is that it definitely won't allow transfers FROM the S3 because it would then be a digital copy of a digital source.

I guess theoretically they could offer transfers from an S2 TO an S3 but I think they'd think that would confuse users.

Personally, I expect MRV to be disabled altogether on the S3


----------



## cwoody222

surge said:



> What are the chances that the S3 box will be able to handle 2-way cable-cards?
> Is that a firmware upgrade thing or actual hardware changes?
> 
> I use the Comcast VOD service for all the HBO shows, movies and kids programming.


Not likely.

I believe it would be a hardware change.

Plus - someone correct me if I'm wrong here - the multistream cards don't even have a standards approved yet, meaning implementation by someone like TiVo is a WAYS off (ie: plan on S4  )


----------



## tunnelengineer

Fraser+Dief said:


> Yup. Making this a short term offer really sucks.
> 
> By the time Cablecard gets here (if ever), the offer is long gone, and so am I as a tivo customer.
> 
> Not smart.


A short term offer is far better than no offer.......

Sounds to me like you need to complain to whatever canadian provider you have to get cablecards. It is not Tivo's problem.....

Also the units will still work with a single cable (coax) and an antenna connection (coax). They may not be HD, but you could still use the unit until your cable provider uses cablecards. Here in the states it is mandated that the cable providers supply cablecards (and support them).


----------



## MickeS

eisenb11 said:


> Aye, it's not from eBay, but from the classifieds so it's a "real world" transaction.
> 
> He lost the remote and figured the unit was worthless.
> 
> Didn't know it's the serial number that us A/V junkies are interested in


Man, you're evil if you don't tell him the truth.


----------



## eisenb11

MickeS said:


> Man, you're evil if you don't tell him the truth.


Strange, I seem to hear that comment alot from my friends after they find out about my second-hand purchases


----------



## surge

cwoody222 said:


> Not likely.
> 
> I believe it would be a hardware change.
> 
> Plus - someone correct me if I'm wrong here - the multistream cards don't even have a standards approved yet, meaning implementation by someone like TiVo is a WAYS off (ie: plan on S4  )


I still don't have HD because of the lack of Cable Cards in current systems. I have a 4-tuner MCE machine that gets used for everything.. Movies, music, TV, etc.

Seeing that an S3 will be $800 and I can transfer my S1 LT for $200, I'd be out $1000 .

It will be interesting to see the pricing of the Comcast TiVo service.

With Comcast, I would get the TiVo service on a dual tuner box and have VOD plus if the box breaks, I call Comcast and get a new one for free. It would take about 3 years (assuming the TiVo adds $10 to the already $16 rental price of the Comcast PVR) of paying Comcast a monthly fee to come close to $1000. So what would be the advantage of the actual TiVo over the Comcast solution except for having it be a LT sub?


----------



## DancnDude

greg_burns said:


> AFAIK, this is not a given. Has anybody heard yet whether the S3 will support any sort of MRV?


Yes I realize the transfer part with S2's hasn't been confirmed but I know networking it will be possible. I would be disappointed if I couldn't transfer SD shows to a Series 2 though, or at least transfer shows from a Series 2 to a Series 3.


----------



## mikesay98

So am I to understand that this $199 transfer will only be good for a certain amount of time?


----------



## 1283

MickeS said:


> Man, you're evil if you don't tell him the truth.


He is more evil if he tells the seller the truth after the purchase.


----------



## Shawn95GT

cwoody222 said:


> Personally, I expect MRV to be disabled altogether on the S3


That would piss me off beyond belief. Now S3 to a S2 I can see not happening because of the need for a down conversion, but no S3 to S3? Or even S2 to S3?

I wish the content providers would realize that digital doesn't automatically mean 100% perfect copy. More like it'll be as good as you got it from your provider. I guess this is 'bad enough' as far as a the copyright people are concerned.

No MRV / TTG could kill the S3 for me. Right now with my S2s MRV is a necessity and the dual tuner will solve a lot of that, but TTG / off-Tivo archiving is a big part of my Tivo experience right now too.

No MRV would make me buy 1 S3 vs multiples.


----------



## 1283

What happens to the S1/S2 after the 1-year free period? If billing continues, who will be billed? When the lifetime unit is transferred to another owner, TiVo has the billing info for the original owner, not the new owner. If this is not sorted out, billing will be a mess.


----------



## Bierboy

mikesay98 said:


> So am I to understand that this $199 transfer will only be good for a certain amount of time?


"Box must be purchased by December 31, 2006 and lifetime transfer by January 31, 2007."


----------



## cwoody222

surge said:


> I still don't have HD because of the lack of Cable Cards in current systems. I have a 4-tuner MCE machine that gets used for everything.. Movies, music, TV, etc.
> 
> Seeing that an S3 will be $800 and I can transfer my S1 LT for $200, I'd be out $1000 .
> 
> It will be interesting to see the pricing of the Comcast TiVo service.
> 
> With Comcast, I would get the TiVo service on a dual tuner box and have VOD plus if the box breaks, I call Comcast and get a new one for free. It would take about 3 years (assuming the TiVo adds $10 to the already $16 rental price of the Comcast PVR) of paying Comcast a monthly fee to come close to $1000. So what would be the advantage of the actual TiVo over the Comcast solution except for having it be a LT sub?


Other than losing ancilliary features that only SA features may have I don't think anyone will argue that the Comcast deal will be better. (assumng you have no need to record OTA)


----------



## eisenb11

surge said:


> I still don't have HD because of the lack of Cable Cards in current systems. I have a 4-tuner MCE machine that gets used for everything.. Movies, music, TV, etc.
> 
> Seeing that an S3 will be $800 and I can transfer my S1 LT for $200, I'd be out $1000 .
> 
> It will be interesting to see the pricing of the Comcast TiVo service.
> 
> With Comcast, I would get the TiVo service on a dual tuner box and have VOD plus if the box breaks, I call Comcast and get a new one for free. It would take about 3 years (assuming the TiVo adds $10 to the already $16 rental price of the Comcast PVR) of paying Comcast a monthly fee to come close to $1000. So what would be the advantage of the actual TiVo over the Comcast solution except for having it be a LT sub?


Well don't forget that there may also be a $150 rebate that you can use on the purchase to drop the OOP price down to $850 with the transfer.

As for Comcast, didn't I read that it wasn't going to be ready until around 2008 or whatever? So you have to wait all that time.

Then add on the extra cost for the DVR services ($10/mo I think)? The price for 2x cablecards from TWC in my area is like $3.00/mo total so the actual savings is about $7/mo. I'm not sure if comcast does it, but I believe TWC also makes me pay more for the DVR box over a regular one (on top of the service cost).

Also I'm not a fan of the SA boxes, though the Motorola ones were ok.

If we assume you keep the S3 for 3 years, the actual cost starts to drop to more like the $500ish range.

I think that's a pretty good deal considering the quality of the S3 over the cable offerings and that Tivo is more likely to listen to consumer input over box features.


----------



## eisenb11

c3 said:


> What happens to the S1/S2 after the 1-year free period? If billing continues, who will be billed? When the lifetime unit is transferred to another owner, TiVo has the billing info for the original owner, not the new owner. If this is not sorted out, billing will be a mess.


Since the original S1/S2 were lifetimes it is possible there would be no billing info on file (some OEMs came pre-configured w lifetime service).

I'd assume that the box would just die...?


----------



## eisenb11

Guess I'll throw a quick concern into the bunch:

I wonder how Tivo is going to be handling output?

I currently use a SA box and I hate what it does. It takes the source material and converts it to 1080i (or 720p) on the way out.

What would be awesome is to have a box that doesn't do this. I.E. 1080i in = 1080i out... 720p in = 720p out... 480i in = 480i out.

Since the S3 is supposed to not cater to "regular consumers" then it should allow native output to cater to the high-end crowd who have dedicated external scaler units.

Does anyone know if this is the case or if the S3 is going to play the same "pick an output resolution" game that all the other folks play?


----------



## 1283

eisenb11 said:


> Well don't forget that there may also be a $150 rebate that you can use on the purchase to drop the OOP price down to $850 with the transfer.


Rebate does not work with transfer.


----------



## jfh3

c3 said:


> What happens to the S1/S2 after the 1-year free period? If billing continues, who will be billed? When the lifetime unit is transferred to another owner, TiVo has the billing info for the original owner, not the new owner. If this is not sorted out, billing will be a mess.


You're confused - no change required for billing.

The person who has the now-monthly S1 or S2 registered to their account will be billed when the year is up.

Doesn't matter if the lifetime unit (now the S3) was transferred to a different owner than the person who owns the S1 or S2 box.


----------



## 1283

eisenb11 said:


> Since the original S1/S2 were lifetimes it is possible there would be no billing info on file (some OEMs came pre-configured w lifetime service).


All units have billing info on file, except for "free" units which are probably billed to TiVo.


----------



## cwoody222

eisenb11 said:


> As for Comcast, didn't I read that it wasn't going to be ready until around 2008 or whatever? So you have to wait all that time.


The goal was by the end of this year. Looks like wide availability will be in early 2007. (according to recent TiVo financial filings)


----------



## eisenb11

c3 said:


> Rebate does not work with transfer.


Ouch, if that's the case, I'm glad I was evil in my used S1 purchase... going to have to pay another $150 higher than anticipated because of the transfer!


----------



## eisenb11

cwoody222 said:


> The goal was by the end of this year. Looks like wide availability will be in early 2007. (according to recent TiVo financial filings)


Wow, that's an aggressive rollout. If that's the case, it may be worth waiting to see how Comcasts offering turns out since we're really not talking too much time.

TWC here, so this is a no-brainer for me.


----------



## btwyx

eisenb11 said:


> I currently use a SA box


I'm assuming you don't mean "Stand Alone (TiVo)" which is what "SA" usually means around here. Else I was wondering where you got an HD SA TiVO.


> What would be awesome is to have a box that doesn't do this. I.E. 1080i in = 1080i out... 720p in = 720p out... 480i in = 480i out.


The S3 will be able to output at whatever resolution you want (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) independent of the input signal. The current HD TiVos have that facility. If you want "Native Pass Through" which is where the output is automatically adjusted to be the same (or as similar as possible) to the input, then I'd not sure if that's supposed to be in the S3 or not. Its one of the top requested features.


----------



## vman41

btwyx said:


> I'm assuming you don't mean "Stand Alone (TiVo)" which is what "SA" usually means around here.


In the context of High Definition DVRs, SA means Scientific Atlanta.


----------



## 1283

jfh3 said:


> You're confused - no change required for billing.
> 
> The person who has the now-monthly S1 or S2 registered to their account will be billed when the year is up.


No, I'm not confused. If the person has to sign up again for the monthly "1-year free" service, then that works fine. Right now, when I transfer a lifetime unit to you, I'm still the billing owner for that unit, not you.


----------



## Dan203

cwoody222 said:


> Plus - someone correct me if I'm wrong here - the multistream cards don't even have a standards approved yet, meaning implementation by someone like TiVo is a WAYS off (ie: plan on S4  )


Your wording is wrong! Multi-Stream cards have been approved and should be available very soon. It's the CableCARD 2.0 standard, which incompasses all the bidirectional communication stuff, which is not yet approved. The Series 3 will support Multi-Stream cards, but it will NOT support the bidirectional communication portion of the CableCARD 2.0 spec as that would require a hardware change.

Dan


----------



## Dan203

cwoody222 said:


> I think the general consensus is that it definitely won't allow transfers FROM the S3 because it would then be a digital copy of a digital source.


That's actually not true! There is a copy protection scheme in place that will allow digital cable channels to prevent you from transfering their content. However it's something they explicitly have to use.

The big "problem" with transferring from a S3 to a S2 is that the S2 is not capable of decoding an HD signal. Which means that there is no way for a S2 to play back a recording from an HD channel even if the user didn't mind watching in SD quality.

Dan


----------



## cwoody222

Dan203 said:


> Your wording is wrong! Multi-Stream cards have been approved and should be available very soon. It's the CableCARD 2.0 standard, which incompasses all the bidirectional communication stuff, which is not yet approved. The Series 3 will support Multi-Stream cards, but it will NOT support the bidirectional communication portion of the CableCARD 2.0 spec as that would require a hardware change.
> 
> Dan


Oops. I'm sorry and you are right. Multistream card (singlular) would allow a user to record two digital cable channels at the same time, right? (the back of the TiVo even specifies which slot gets this one, right?)


----------



## Gene S

I want to transfer the lifetime from an old S1 to a new S3 and toss the old S1.
What if I don't want the 12 month service on the S1 I just transfered?


----------



## bap

Gene S said:


> I want to transfer the lifetime from an old S1 to a new S3 and toss the old S1.
> What if I don't want the 12 month service on the S1 I just transfered?


Give/sell the unit to somebody who wants an S1.


----------



## eisenb11

btwyx said:


> If you want "Native Pass Through" which is where the output is automatically adjusted to be the same (or as similar as possible) to the input, then I'd not sure if that's supposed to be in the S3 or not. Its one of the top requested features.


Correct, it's native passthrough that I'm after. The reason being that my dedicated scaler box is probably going to do a much better job scaling than whatever integrated solution is in the STB.

Knowing that it's one of the top requested features makes me feel a lot better.

You'd think that from Tivo's standpoint it would be an easy feature. Simply record from source and play from recording... no conversion steps necessary... I've no idea why manufacturers feel they need to make us pick a single resolution then lock us into that res.


----------



## Stu_Bee

Gene S said:


> I want to transfer the lifetime from an old S1 to a new S3 and toss the old S1.
> What if I don't want the 12 month service on the S1 I just transfered?


heh..yeah. I was just thinking that 
(a) people will soon be Ebaying series1/2's with "1 year pre-paid service" in the tag line.
(b) Can we get a further discount if we send a video to Tivo of us bashing in our old Series1/2's? They'd be off the streets thus forcing people into the newer S3 ad revenue generating stream.


----------



## Shawn95GT

Gene S said:


> I want to transfer the lifetime from an old S1 to a new S3 and toss the old S1.
> What if I don't want the 12 month service on the S1 I just transfered?


Now you know why the year of service is free vs a $50 or $100 option .


----------



## Dan203

cwoody222 said:


> Oops. I'm sorry and you are right. Multistream card (singlular) would allow a user to record two digital cable channels at the same time, right? (the back of the TiVo even specifies which slot gets this one, right?)


Correct. The unit can use either one multi-stream card or two single stream cards to access the dual tuner functionality. (and yes it says something like "use bottom slot first" on the back of the unit)

Dan


----------



## eisenb11

Hmm, I've been crunching more math and wonder... if you have an old Tivo with lifetime on it, is it worth it to transfer the subscription to the S3?

Option A: Transfer It

$800 + $250 = $1150... then you're done... forever... or until the unit breaks...

Option B: Keep It

The key here is that the lifetime unit will qualify you for the multi-unit discount
$800 + $7.00/month

I'd take off $150 for the rebate (for not transferring service), but it's questionable if the S3 applies. The current rebate only applies to the S2s.


So... breaking down the monthly.... $200 to xfer the lifetime breaks down to 29 months of payments at $7/mo.

If the rebate actually did work, it would take 50 months in order to hit the break even point.

If the rebate applied, it would not be worth doing the transfer because 50 months is a long time, you'd get another unit by then... but on the flip side the lifetime will increase the resale value of your used S3.

So assuming no rebate, we're looking at 29 months what would you do? Would you transfer the license for $200 or would you keep the old S1 and pay $7/mo?

Also what if the lifetime unit breaks out of warranty? Can Tivo do an out-of-warranty repair... and will they transfer the subscription?


----------



## Dan203

eisenb11 said:


> Option A: Transfer It
> 
> $800 + $250 = $1150... then you're done... forever... or until the unit breaks...


Uh that's some creative math there! $800 + $250 = $1,050 NOT $1,150. Also the transfer cost is $199 not $250. So basically a S3 with lifetime will cost $1,000. Add in the years worth of free service on your old unit and it's about $915. ($6.95 x 12 = $83.40)

Also you have to remember that a unit with lifetime will always have a higher resale value then one with out. So there is a good change that 2-3 years from now S3 units with lifetime will be selling on eBay for $300+ more then a unit without lifetime.

Dan


----------



## eisenb11

Oops, my bad... was preoccupied when I typed that message.

I had $200 in my head and typed $250 anyways... $200/$7 = 29 months (which was my calculated break-even point).

That is true, that I'll regain my initial investment when I sell the unit some day.

My main concern is what if the unit breaks?

Anything other than the hard drive out of warranty will not be possible to fix.

Does Tivo offer out-of-warranty repair options so I can keep the sub alive, or am I SOL at that point?


----------



## Stu_Bee

But maybe the lifetime of a S3 will fall short of what we have experienced with our S2's.
Will SDV come along and cripple the S3 in many markets within 2 years?


----------



## Dan203

eisenb11 said:


> Does Tivo offer out-of-warranty repair options so I can keep the sub alive, or am I SOL at that point?


They offer out of warrnty repair on S2 units, and it retains your lifetime sub.

Dan


----------



## eisenb11

Yeah, but that fear goes far wider than the fear of just losing $200 to the lifetime... $800 is bad enough by itself.

We'll have to wait and see what's going to happen in the SDV arena...


----------



## eisenb11

Dan203 said:


> They offer out of warrnty repair on S2 units, and it retains your lifetime sub.
> 
> Dan


Thanks Dan, so it looks like there is no way to lose on getting a lifetime... unless our cable co goes SDV...


----------



## Dan203

Stu_Bee said:


> But maybe the lifetime of a S3 will fall short of what we have experienced with our S2's.
> Will SDV come along and cripple the S3 in many markets within 2 years?


That is a possibility. However I think 2 years is a little ambitious for most cable providers other then Time Warner. Heck Time Warner has been "testing" SDV for almost 3 years and is just now startng to deploy it wide. Plus, even with SDV, the S3 will have value to someone. There will always be people who don't care about the SDV channels or only have OTA anyway.

Dan


----------



## eisenb11

I wonder if Tivo will step in and sue TWC over the SDV issue.

SDV renders CableCard pretty worthless, which would seem to violate previous FCC requirements about CableCard support.

I've also read that perhaps SDV will not be a really big deal... but then again... you can't always believe what you read


----------



## MickeS

eisenb11 said:


> Ouch, if that's the case, I'm glad I was evil in my used S1 purchase... going to have to pay another $150 higher than anticipated because of the transfer!


Assuming there will be a rebate, which we don't know yet.


----------



## Dan203

eisenb11 said:


> I wonder if Tivo will step in and sue TWC over the SDV issue.


I believe there is a caluse in the CableCARD mandate which allows for "technological progress" beyond what the CableCARD is capable of. So I don't think TiVo would have a case.

Dan


----------



## talmania

surge said:


> I still don't have HD because of the lack of Cable Cards in current systems. I have a 4-tuner MCE machine that gets used for everything.. Movies, music, TV, etc.
> 
> Seeing that an S3 will be $800 and I can transfer my S1 LT for $200, I'd be out $1000 .
> 
> It will be interesting to see the pricing of the Comcast TiVo service.
> 
> With Comcast, I would get the TiVo service on a dual tuner box and have VOD plus if the box breaks, I call Comcast and get a new one for free. It would take about 3 years (assuming the TiVo adds $10 to the already $16 rental price of the Comcast PVR) of paying Comcast a monthly fee to come close to $1000. So what would be the advantage of the actual TiVo over the Comcast solution except for having it be a LT sub?


Disclaimer: I don't profess to be an expert on the S3--just learning about it myself.

One of the biggest advantages and the one that will drive me to get an S3 as opposed to a Motorola/SA Tivo is the capability to expand the storage capacity. As I understand it the S3 has a eSATA port and storage can be increased dramatically.

That's been the biggest issue (besides the non-Tivo interface of course) that I have with the 6412 that I have is the tiny, tiny storage space. HD gobbles it up in no time. I salivate at the prospect of adding several 750GB eSATA external drives to a S3 tivo.


----------



## Dajad

MickeS said:


> I don't know how it is in Canada, but I'm pretty sure the cable company, no matter the size, HAS to by law provide CableCARDS to those who ask for it.


Nope, its just the major Cablecos that do.



cwoody222 said:


> There are exceptions for smaller cable companies, they don't have to supply the CableCARDS. But we're talking about a small percentage of the cable market in the US.


I don't have a source to quote this (at the momement) but the last time I looked into this a couple years ago it was about 20-25% of the U.S. cable market that is not supplied by the major MSOs.

And, of course there is 100% of the Cdn market (the size of California) where the FCC rules don't apply.



ZeoTiVo said:


> sorry, I forgot your Canadian address. Yes that is a porblem but to my thinking falls under the market segment of such a size they will have to work with the currnent S2 to do SD recording in Canada. I assume you can use the S3 for OTA and analog recordings still. So the 12 months buys you some time but I suppose if I lived in Canada I would keep lifetime on the S2 if I had it and go MSD on the S3 if I thought it worth the money to do OTA and analog cable.


Yes, Canadians can use the S3 for OTA and analogue. That's my plan. However, there is no April 2009 cut-over to digital deadline in Canada so the digital transition is about 4 years behind the U.S. in Canada. Many Canadian networks are not yet up and running in a digital form. Also, the ones that are are on such low power you have to be VERY close to the tower for it to be useful. And, for those of us in multi-story dwellings, when our unit faces away from the local tower, reception is near non-existant - even in major markets like Toronto where I am. So, OTA will not be an option for most. Heck, I've been jumping through hoops in my testing to get something working for myself.

...Dale

...Dale


----------



## megazone

Graymalkin said:


> Nice offer. But you'll have to take a chance on a newly released Series 3.


I think that's the point. Just look at the forums - a number of people who were balking at the price of the S3 and/or the risk are now saying they'll pounce on this offer.

TiVo is looking to drive S3 sales while the boxes are still expensive - make revenue on the hardware, improve sales, make retail partners happy...


----------



## Dajad

surge said:


> What are the chances that the S3 box will be able to handle 2-way cable-cards?
> Is that a firmware upgrade thing or actual hardware changes?
> 
> I use the Comcast VOD service for all the HBO shows, movies and kids programming.


As I understand it, the S3 will be able to work unidirectionally with the 2-way cards when they come out. Meaning, you can plug them in and the 1 way functionality will work but the 2-way functionality won't.

Not sure why you need VOD for kids shows. My dozen or so nieces and nephews are generally fine watching the same things a 100 times - PVRs are great for that. Record a dozen or so kids movies and you are set for years! But, no, the S3 will never, as far as I know, support VOD or any other functionality that requires 2-way interaction.

For that, keep your S2 and your current set-top, order the VOD show, manually tune your TiVo into the VOD channel and record away.

...Dale


----------



## megazone

TiVo Troll said:


> This Lifetime Service transfer for $200 illustrates perfectly how unreliable all the "informed" speculation on these Forums really is. But that stupid Forum Troll got ridiculed more than once for posting the bright idea that TiVo ought to price Lifetime Service @ $500! It essentially is, probably to test the market as well as reward existing customers!


Not really the same thing. I admit I am very surprised to see this offer. I never expected TiVo to offer transfers to the S3. But for $199 they'll drive sales of the new boxes while the price is high.

I really don't think this is testing the waters for bringing lifetime back. I think this is a real, limited time deal - just like the S1 to S2 transfer offer when the S2 came out. Most likely early next year the pricing on the S3 will come down and the transfer offer expires, and it becomes a standard box offering.

But I am happy to see this. I'll probably transfer the lifetime off of my RS-TX20, and maybe I'll end up selling it. Or I may just let it lapse back to Basic. I really only use it as a DVD player in my room now.



> Well it looks like there will be a Series 3 in my future and another Series 2 laying around and not being used (after a year), and it also looks like I'll end up taking a bath on that Lifetime Service Gift Card I bought.


Sell the card on eBay NOW - I'm sure there will be suckers, er, buyers who don't hear about this offer before buying the card. ;-)

Or hold onto it until next year - there will be people who still want lifetime once this offer expires, and they'll start looking for cards again.


----------



## megazone

jacques said:


> I've thought about going to the S3 just to keep up, but I don't have an HD TV nor do I have digital cable...... but if I do have 4 S1 machines with lifetime.


If you have the money to front, you could buy multiple S3s, lifetime them all, and then resell them. There are going to be people who want and S3 and lifetime, but don't have a unit to transfer from. See what the best deal is on an S3 (I'm sure there will be online discounts from resellers), slap lifetime on it, and start bidding at $999.


----------



## phox_mulder

I'm torn now.

I had just about convinced myself that $800 wasn't that bad.
Heck, I just shelled out $1,500 (that I really couldn't afford)last spring on my HDTV/HR10-250 and assorted cables and such, what's another $800.

I knew my lifetimed S2 wouldn't be doing much if I did get an S3, so was just going to hand it down to a family member, but keep it on my account so I could get the $6.95 on the S3.

Now, $1,000 is a lot of money to spend upfront, maybe too much.

Decisions, decisions, decisions.


phox


----------



## megazone

Turtleboy said:


> I have a lifetime on my S2. If I get a S3, with the multi-unit discount, the fee on the S3 is 6.95 a month.
> 
> Or I can transfer the lifetime to the S3 and pay $199, get a year "free" on the S2, and then with the multi-series discount, I pay 6.95 a month.
> 
> Tivo is hoping some people are bad at math, which they obviously are.


$199 - (6.95x12) = $115.60.

So you're basically paying $115.60 over that one year span, more than just paying $6.95 on the new S3.

For that you get lifetime on the new S3 - which is newer hardware and, hopefully, has a longer life expectancy than an old box. So you prolong the value of the lifetime. It also means you can retire, resell, etc, that old box. Not everyone wants or needs to keep the old box in service - now the S3 can replace the old box completely. No need to call in at least once every six months to sustain MSD. This is especially good if it is a DVD box with TiVo Basic, those retain more value without a sub.

I don't think $115.60 is a bad deal at all to transfer lifetime to the new S3 and eliminate any dependence on the old box.


----------



## megazone

surge said:


> What are the chances that the S3 box will be able to handle 2-way cable-cards?
> Is that a firmware upgrade thing or actual hardware changes?


Approximately 0 in a million. And it is a hardware change - based on the current proposed spec.

You would need to keep a cable box as well as the S3 to use PPV, OnDemand, etc - which you would do independent of the TiVo.


----------



## megazone

MickeS said:


> Man, you're evil if you don't tell him the truth.


I think it would be more evil TO tell him. The deal is done, the seller is probably happy with it. If he learns he just walked away from hundreds of dollars, that'd be cruel.

A buyer shouldn't be obligated to get a seller to charge *more*. ;-)


----------



## megazone

eisenb11 said:


> Does anyone know if this is the case or if the S3 is going to play the same "pick an output resolution" game that all the other folks play?


The S3 can output in 'native' - so whatever the source came in as. OR you can lock it to a resolution if your TV needs that. That was back at CES.


----------



## megazone

eisenb11 said:


> Ouch, if that's the case, I'm glad I was evil in my used S1 purchase... going to have to pay another $150 higher than anticipated because of the transfer!


That's pure speculation. First of all, the current rebate expires in a week or so. There may not BE a rebate on the S3 at all!

Second, the restrictions on transfers and rebates is on a completely different type of transfer. This is a special deal, we don't know the details. But I doubt TiVo would offer a special deal to 'loyal customers', and then backhand them with losing a rebate at the same time!


----------



## megazone

Gene S said:


> I want to transfer the lifetime from an old S1 to a new S3 and toss the old S1.
> What if I don't want the 12 month service on the S1 I just transfered?


Then you don't use it. It is a free plus, you're free to throw it away.


----------



## eisenb11

megazone said:


> The S3 can output in 'native' - so whatever the source came in as. OR you can lock it to a resolution if your TV needs that. That was back at CES.


Nice! I'm so early-adopting this thing 

Oh, since you seem very knowledgable on the topic... do you know if the S3 will be able to be controlled via ethernet? I write automation software and would love to find a non-rsr232-to-IR way to integrate the S3 into my software.

Just got back home a few minutes ago from buying a S1 w lifetime.

No manual, no power cord, no remote, no cables... no idea if it even works... guy probably thought I was crazy buying it for $40!


----------



## mattack

talmania said:


> That's been the biggest issue (besides the non-Tivo interface of course) that I have with the 6412 that I have is the tiny, tiny storage space. HD gobbles it up in no time. I salivate at the prospect of adding several 750GB eSATA external drives to a S3 tivo.


SEVERAL eSATA drives?? Isn't it limited to 1, based upon the current speculation?

That is, we don't know if you can actually remove one SATA drive and plug in another.. we know (based upon the CES talk) that if you remove an external drive, the recordings that straddle the drives will "disappear".. (We haven't heard whether they'll reappear upon reconnection.)


----------



## eisenb11

mattack said:


> SEVERAL eSATA drives?? Isn't it limited to 1, based upon the current speculation?
> 
> That is, we don't know if you can actually remove one SATA drive and plug in another.. we know (based upon the CES talk) that if you remove an external drive, the recordings that straddle the drives will "disappear".. (We haven't heard whether they'll reappear upon reconnection.)


It may be possible to find an eSata RAID array of some sort to hook it up to...?

If the array has an onboard processor it'll just look like 1 massive hard drive as far as the S3 is concerned.

Something like this, for example:

http://www.firewire-1394.com/4-bay-hot-swap-esata-raid-kit-fusion-400.htm

or *drool*....

http://www.granitedigital.com/catalog/pg56_satahot-swapbackup8.htm


----------



## megazone

mattack said:


> SEVERAL eSATA drives?? Isn't it limited to 1, based upon the current speculation?


There are external enclosures which can appear to be a single, huge, drive to the host.


----------



## greg_burns

Or something more modest like this
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/04/17/thecus_brings_sata_to_external_storage/


----------



## tgewin

Anyone want to speculate on whether I'll be able to take advantage of this offer with an old Sony series 1 that has had a dead modem for a few years now? I was going to go through the trouble of either buying replacement parts and doing my best solder work ever or doing with an external modem option so I could take advantage of the multi-unit discount. This new option seems like a much better choice though. Instead of spending $50+ to get the S1 working and still have to pay $7/month on S3 service, I could just pay $199 and be done with it.

Any guesses or suggestions?


----------



## eisenb11

greg_burns said:


> Or something more *modest* like this
> http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/04/17/thecus_brings_sata_to_external_storage/


Pfft! Modesty is for people who don't have S3s!


----------



## eisenb11

tgewin said:


> Anyone want to speculate on whether I'll be able to take advantage of this offer with an old Sony series 1 that has had a dead modem for a few years now? I was going to go through the trouble of either buying replacement parts and doing my best solder work ever or doing with an external modem option so I could take advantage of the multi-unit discount. This new option seems like a much better choice though. Instead of spending $50+ to get the S1 working and still have to pay $7/month on S3 service, I could just pay $199 and be done with it.
> 
> Any guesses or suggestions?


My *guess* is yes and I'm going to bet my money on it. I just bought a Sony S1 w lifetime today.


----------



## TiVo Troll

jes218 said:


> So I have two S2's (a 160 & a 540) with lifetime service and upgraded HD's. I don't use either of them because I have Comcast and use the SA8000HD. The 160 is currently on Ebay, listed for Best Offer. I was going to list the 540 next.
> 
> Any suggestions? Should I finish the sale of of the first one, and hold onto the second one to get the lifetime on the new S3?


Now that you know how the Lifetime Service Offer will work, "Best Offer" would be fine, if you don't need to transfer Lifetime Service, as long as you've figured out what the 160 is worth to you.


----------



## TiVo Troll

MickeS said:


> Man, you're evil if you don't tell him the truth.


No! It's the American Way.

Not righteously 100% moral ("what would Jesus do?") but "live" is just evil, backwards.

The question is, would I tell him? I certainly would if asked. Otherwise, why?


----------



## eisenb11

TiVo Troll said:


> No! It's the American Way.
> 
> Not righteously 100% moral ("what would Jesus do?") but "live" is just evil, backwards.
> 
> The question is, would I tell him? I certainly would if asked. Otherwise, why?


Actually, he did ask so I vaguely mentioned that I was going to play around with it then try to transfer the license to another unit.

I did refrain from telling him what the license was worth and that it was going into a HD Tivo (he just bought a new plasma)... so that's not completely evil right... right? right?


----------



## ah30k

eisenb11 said:


> My *guess* is yes and I'm going to bet my money on it. I just bought a Sony S1 w lifetime today.


Since none of us has the details yet, we can only speculate. There is a change they may only allow 'working' lifetime units to transfer. This would mean they have to dial in periodically to be eligible. I'm not saying they will, but they might. They have this same heartbeat requirement for MSD.


----------



## TiVo Troll

TiVo Troll said:


> This Lifetime Service transfer for $200 illustrates perfectly how unreliable all the "informed" speculation on these Forums really is. But that stupid Forum Troll got ridiculed more than once for posting the bright idea that TiVo ought to price Lifetime Service @ $500! It essentially is, probably to test the market as well as reward existing customers!






megazone said:


> Not really the same thing. I admit I am very surprised to see this offer. I never expected TiVo to offer transfers to the S3. But for $199 they'll drive sales of the new boxes while the price is high.
> 
> I really don't think this is testing the waters for bringing lifetime back. I think this is a real, limited time deal - just like the S1 to S2 transfer offer when the S2 came out. Most likely early next year the pricing on the S3 will come down and the transfer offer expires, and it becomes a standard box offering.


I don't really disagree. And I'm sure that the Series 3 price will drop radically after this deal closes.

But while it's "not...the same thing" it's close enough for gummint work. TiVo will learn what the demand is for Liftime Service is at the equivalent of $500 plus the expensive box fee.

This is a completely different deal than the free Series 1 to 2 Lifetime Transfer and is the first time that a new Lifetime Offer has been made since Lifetime was discontinued. I believe that the primary reason for this offer is to control the availability of scarce Series 3 during the early months of its release by using market forces instead of quotas and at the same time to get a signicant quick jolt of cash ($800 + $200) from each taker.

But in the future all bets are off. TiVo adapts to whatever strategy they believe will work best for them. And why not?



> Sell (your) card on eBay NOW - I'm sure there will be suckers, er, buyers who don't hear about this offer before buying the card. ;-)


I don't do business that way. I know I'm positively Un-American. (However, if I was a buyer I wouldn't inform a seemingly ignorant seller about their item unless s/he specifically asked me a question about it.)



> Or hold onto it until next year - there will be people who still want lifetime once this offer expires, and they'll start looking for cards again.


Hey, I want an upgraded dual tuner Series 2 to apply Lifetime Service to!



> But I am happy to see this.


Yep, this is a great offer!


----------



## TiVo Troll

eisenb11 said:


> Actually, he did ask so I vaguely mentioned that I was going to play around with it then try to transfer the license to another unit.
> 
> I did refrain from telling him what the license was worth and that it was going into a HD Tivo (he just bought a new plasma)... so that's not completely evil right... right? right?


So you fudged your way through it.

Wow, you're the American Ideal! Definitely Presidential material.


----------



## TiVo Troll

ah30k said:


> Since none of us has the details yet, we can only speculate. There is a change they may only allow 'working' lifetime units to transfer. This would mean they have to dial in periodically to be eligible. I'm not saying they will, but they might. They have this same heartbeat requirement for MSD.


I am involved in an eBay transaction with a seller who has a Series 1 eligible for the one-time Lifetime Service transfer. He wants to keep the unit but sell the Lifetime Service.

I emailed TiVoStephen asking to be directed to a definitive source regarding whether Lifetime Service transfer eligibility would continue indefinitely whether or not the Series 1 called in to TiVo. I haven't gotten a reply yet.

Is there anyone here who can post regarding a definitive source? Informed (or uninformed) opinions are welcome, but I won't conclude the deal without feeling confident that I have a right to transfer the service at any time in the future. Maybe I'll end up regretting the deal?


----------



## MickeS

TiVo Troll said:


> I am involved in an eBay transaction with a seller who has a Series 1 eligible for the one-time Lifetime Service transfer. He wants to keep the unit but sell the Lifetime Service.
> 
> I emailed TiVoStephen asking to be directed to a definitive source regarding whether Lifetime Service transfer eligibility would continue indefinitely whether or not the Series 1 called in to TiVo. I haven't gotten a reply yet.
> 
> Is there anyone here who can post regarding a definitive source? Informed (or uninformed) opinions are welcome, but I won't conclude the deal without feeling confident that I have a right to transfer the service at any time in the future. Maybe I'll end up regretting the deal?


I don't understand your question. Do you mean that at the time of transfer they would ask you to force a call from your existing S1, or what do you mean?

The lifetime transfer eligibility won't continue indefinitely either way, only until 1/31/07 and only on S3's activated before 12/31/06.


----------



## TiVo Troll

TiVo Troll said:


> I am involved in an eBay transaction with a seller who has a Series 1 eligible for the one-time Lifetime Service transfer. He wants to keep the unit but sell the Lifetime Service.





MickeS said:


> I don't understand your question. Do you mean that at the time of transfer they would ask you to force a call from your existing S1, or what do you mean?
> 
> The lifetime transfer eligibility won't continue indefinitely either way, only until 1/31/07 and only on S3's activated before 12/31/06.


The seller wants to use the Series 1 unsubbed, for manual recordings and trick play only.

The deal has to do with a Series 1 eligible for the grandfathered Lifetime one-time transfer exception and has nothing to do with the new Series 3 Lifetime transfer offer.


----------



## jfh3

c3 said:


> No, I'm not confused. If the person has to sign up again for the monthly "1-year free" service, then that works fine. Right now, when I transfer a lifetime unit to you, I'm still the billing owner for that unit, not you.


That's irreleveant, because the lifetime unit will never get billed. And also wrong, because the TSN is associated with the new owner's billing info, not the original. The original owner can still SEE the billing history to that point, but that's it.

Besides, the issue is who gets billed for the original unit, which is presumably under your account, since ownership transfer of any non-lifetime isn't allowed.

Been there, done that. No billing issues for the original S1/S2.


----------



## jsmeeker

Just now got around to enabling backdoors on my TiVo and turing on the display of the Teleworld stuff in Now Playing.


Yet another great video from Shanan. She really did get to dress up. Looked GREAT, as always. Loved the out takes at the end, too. I'm getting excited. It's almost here.


----------



## Deacon West

Couldn't enable my backdoors, but thanks for the update. The best news I have heard from TiVo in a long time.


----------



## eisenb11

TiVo Troll said:


> So you fudged your way through it.
> 
> Wow, you're the American Ideal! Definitely Presidential material.


It's the American Dream (TM)! The Presidential thing may be a good idea... with my views towards business aimed towards foreign policy we may be able to turn our trade deficit around. 

Vote eisenb11 for President!


----------



## Dan203

eric_mcgovern said:


> I am gonna be the first...how'd you do that?


He's got a Series 1 TiVo. They still run version 3.0 of the software, which has a known backdoor code. After 3.0 they started encrypting the code, so the only way to get into a newer unit is to hack in and change the backdoor code manually to something you know.

Dan


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Graymalkin said:


> Nice offer. But you'll have to take a chance on a newly released Series 3.


I'll take that chance


----------



## DCIFRTHS

jsmeeker said:


> Heh...
> 
> What do you guys do? Check your TiVo the first thing in the morning for updates??


Ha! Do you mean, instead of checking TiVoShannan's webcam?


----------



## DCIFRTHS

ZeoTiVo said:


> she sounded annoyed that people knew the number already to me


Since you called an 800 number, she now has your number as well...


----------



## SystemJinx

DCIFRTHS said:


> Graymalkin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice offer. But you'll have to take a chance on a newly released Series 3.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll take that chance
Click to expand...

Ditto.

I plan on having an S3 in service long after my S2 is put out to pasture. Might as well transfer the lifetime service while I still can.

As for the S2, I can still use it with the 1 year free sub and then pay $6.95 until I'm tired of it.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

TiVo Troll said:


> TiVo should realize that the cat's out of the bag and have a gracious voice answer a single phone at the 800# and patiently answer any questions that come in. Resulting busy signals will take care of an undue volume of calls, but having one gracious live person to field questions would be well worth paying the going wage for.


A recorded announcement asking us to call back when the S3 is available would be good too.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

eisenb11 said:


> Guess I'll throw a quick concern into the bunch:
> 
> I wonder how Tivo is going to be handling output?
> 
> I currently use a SA box and I hate what it does. It takes the source material and converts it to 1080i (or 720p) on the way out.
> 
> What would be awesome is to have a box that doesn't do this. I.E. 1080i in = 1080i out... 720p in = 720p out... 480i in = 480i out.
> 
> Since the S3 is supposed to not cater to "regular consumers" then it should allow native output to cater to the high-end crowd who have dedicated external scaler units.
> 
> Does anyone know if this is the case or if the S3 is going to play the same "pick an output resolution" game that all the other folks play?


Accoring to MegaZone, in another thread, the S3 does have a native mode. I'll look for the thread, and update my post with a link.

EDIT: I see MZ already answered this about a page ago


----------



## megazone

jsmeeker said:


> Just now got around to enabling backdoors on my TiVo and turing on the display of the Teleworld stuff in Now Playing.


Can you transfer it to a PC? If so, get that baby up on YouTube!


----------



## mikesay98

I have a question that maybe you can help with. I currently have a Series 2 with lifetime. I also have purchased (this was in anticipation) two Series 1 units on eBay that are both eligible for the one-time grandfather transfer. I only needed one, but the opportunities presented themselves and I got each for $400. Now, at this point, I'm figuring I might as well buy the upgrade to the S3 from my S2 for the $199. I had originally thought of selling the extra S1 on eBay on an S3 for some profit. However, since this special transfer is only good for a specific amount of time, and the grandfather clause is "supposedly?" good for...well, a lifetime, I'm almost considering keeping the S1's and waiting in case a better S3 comes out or hell, even if a S4 comes out in a few years. By then, even gift cards would be useless. I don't plan on using the S1's, and they have no problems that I know of. So it all comes down to, what would your plan of action be here? I can manage to afford the costs of the S1 if they stay in a box, and I guess I would have to do a call every 6 months. I figure even if something goes wrong (HD failure, etc) I can still manage the one-time transfer so I'm not completely out. All your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## megazone

Yeah, sounds like the S1s are 'money in the bank' - they'll be eligible for transfer to the S4, S5, etc, unless something big changes.


----------



## jfh3

megazone said:


> Can you transfer it to a PC? If so, get that baby up on YouTube!


Nope. Just tried to move it to put on my wife's iPod. TTG can see the program, but gets an error "Can't find program" or something when trying to select the program for transfer, probably because it's recorded to the reserved area.

I wasn't thinking clearly and changed the status on the recording, rather than setting a new one that wouldn't normally be hidden, so I hope I didn't mess up future Showcases.

Got a copy on a Comcast DVR, but don't have an easy way to move it. Was going to transcribe it for those that can't wait, but it says what the OP claims ...


----------



## joatnm

Any word if the series 3 will be compatable with other brand series 2 players. I have a series 2 humax with dvd burner. I still want to burn movies recorded in HD.

I am not so sure that the Swaping the Lifetime subsription deal is a good deal. I mean It's the same service for both units right? Doesn't really matter which one has the lifetime right? You go and pay $200 extra for what? Either way you are going to have 2 tivo boxes one with a lifetime subscription and one with monthly or prepaid subscription.

Oh and if you are thinking of the free year subscription for your old machine... I mean really, I'd bet once they start selling these Series 3 players they will be offering year long subscriptions with your new purchace. Call me a cynic but I think this is just a way for getting back at those people who got a good deal off them.

Am I missing something here?? I mean someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong. They do sell it well don't they though? Just wait and see.


----------



## jfh3

joatnm said:


> Oh and if you are thinking of the free year subscription for your old machine... I mean really, I'd bet once they start selling these Series 3 players they will be offering year long subscriptions with your new purchace. Call me a cynic but I think this is just a way for getting back at those people who got a good deal off them.


Cynic. 

This seems like a way to get as many of the lifetime Series 1's off the books as possible, which helps in a number of ways.

Why not throw a bone to the very early adopters? This is a win-win, as long as NEW lifetime subscriptions aren't sold.


----------



## cwoody222

joatnm said:


> I am not so sure that the Swaping the Lifetime subsription deal is a good deal. I mean It's the same service for both units right? Doesn't really matter which one has the lifetime right? You go and pay $200 extra for what? Either way you are going to have 2 tivo boxes one with a lifetime subscription and one with monthly or prepaid subscription.


I agree. To a point. You're right that you pay $200 just to have one subbed and one unsubbed at the end of the year. And that free year is really only worth around $80 @ $6.95/mo.

You could sell the S2 unsubbed but you wouldn't get much for it.

You could sell the S2 later if you wanted and re-coup much of your investment. But you'd also have to re-coup the 'extra' $200.

I don't see this as a great deal. If I were to do it I'd want to keep my S2 hooked up (even though I wouldn't need it) just to qualify for the Multi-service discount.


----------



## cwoody222

tgewin said:


> Anyone want to speculate on whether I'll be able to take advantage of this offer with an old Sony series 1 that has had a dead modem for a few years now? I was going to go through the trouble of either buying replacement parts and doing my best solder work ever or doing with an external modem option so I could take advantage of the multi-unit discount. This new option seems like a much better choice though. Instead of spending $50+ to get the S1 working and still have to pay $7/month on S3 service, I could just pay $199 and be done with it.
> 
> Any guesses or suggestions?


D'oh! Now I'm really pissed at my father for throwing away not one but TWO old S1's with lifetime that he had when the hardware failed. (I never could convince him to sell them on eBay or give them to me... to see on eBay)

(at least they weren't old ones that were grandfathered)

I wonder if he still has the serial number / service number we could do something... hmmm)


----------



## bicker

Well, if the hardware had failed, they would no longer be valid for the transfer, correct?


----------



## Shawn95GT

I have the Video captured via a crappy USB capture device which dorked the aspect ratio. I'll re-code it and post a link. In the mean time, the stills came out ok:


----------



## Squeege96

Has anyone noticed that www.tivo.com/vip is no longer a dead link?

I may have Bluemoon on the brain, but I really think that there will be somesort of announcement today... :up:


----------



## cap

I was able to copy the S1 video to my S2 and transfer to my pc then convert the two clips, but they are too big for my very small cox website (9.27mg info about the s3 and 4.5mg transfer clip).

Any ideas where else to put them?

I have been out to youtube, but don't know anything about putting videos out there.

What about the video encoding key the S2's use when transferring video's?
Could this be linked back to me and get my Tivo deactivated?


----------



## wigleyd

is this company really that strapped for cash? Why not make the transfer to one series 3 unit for free? You would sell a hell of a lot more boxes.


----------



## greg_burns

cap said:


> What about the video encoding key the S2's use when transferring video's?
> Could this be linked back to me and get my Tivo deactivated?


I know I wouldn't be trying it.


----------



## cap

greg_burns said:


> I know I wouldn't be trying it.


Exactly why I'm hesitant!


----------



## cwoody222

Cool, my did NOT throw away one of the broken S1s! I think all that was wrong was the sound went. I should (hopefully) be able to hook it up to a phone line and dialin to validate the service again. We'll see.

That way it's sort of like I'm just paying $199 for lifetime without losing lifetime on another box.

Still gotta justify that $800, though. Heck, that's what I paid for my first DVR way back in 1999! And that included lifetime service (it was a 20hr ReplayTV).


----------



## Shawn95GT

X-fered from the Tivo digitally I'd be concerned too. I recorded (via an old USB capture device) from the Discovery channel where the Teleworld broadcast was playing .


----------



## cwoody222

Shawn95GT said:


> I have the Video captured via a crappy USB capture device which dorked the aspect ratio. I'll re-code it and post a link. In the mean time, the stills came out ok:


Well, I guess that verifies that the box shots on the web last week were legit. I gotta say, I don't like their new HD logos and slimmer font "TiVo" logo 

And I know some of you hetero guys like Shannon but MY GOD, what the HELL is she wearing?!?! Is it a promo video or a burlesque show?!


----------



## cap

Shawn95GT said:


> X-fered from the Tivo digitally I'd be concerned too. I recorded (via an old USB capture device) from the Discovery channel where the Teleworld broadcast was playing .


Yeah I think I'll just hold onto those videos then.

Sorry guys.
I'm sure you'll see them soon enough.


----------



## ufo4sale

How would you find out when a life time was purchase on a TiVo?


----------



## greg_burns

ufo4sale said:


> How would you find out when a life time was purchase on a TiVo?


Log into tivo.com and go to billing history.


----------



## jlb

Shanan looks hot in that promo!!!!


----------



## Bierboy

jlb said:


> Shanan looks hot in that promo!!!!


WHOA -- I read your message quickly, and, for a second I thought you said "porno"!


----------



## ZeoTiVo

cwoody222 said:


> Still gotta justify that $800, though. Heck, that's what I paid for my first DVR way back in 1999! And that included lifetime service (it was a 20hr ReplayTV).


Yep, I was going to wait out till middle of next year and see where the price was then. Now I have to make more of a gamble on the whole thing.

I have lifetime on a 240 and I use it in the bedroom and like the box. 800$ was above my price point as well since I do not do HD and and just have extended basic cable. My plan was to watch what happens and start looking at HD TVs to buy.

Now I have to decide if buying a s3 in december and transfering my lifetime is a better deal than waiting. if I could get the S3 for 650$ I would be more inclined to do so. 800$ not so much.

6.95 * 48 months = 333.60 so that is my general feel for the value of lifetime on an S3 and my price point was 500$ so 850$ Total would work for me though it would be minus the feeling of loosing lifetime on the 240.


----------



## MickeS

cwoody222 said:


> And I know some of you hetero guys like Shannon but MY GOD, what the HELL is she wearing?!?! Is it a promo video or a burlesque show?!


Why can't it be BOTH, you narrowminded little man?


----------



## Bierboy

Squeege96 said:


> Has anyone noticed that www.tivo.com/vip is no longer a dead link?...


Yes, at 2:30 yesterday afternoon.(CDT)


----------



## Jazhuis

eisenb11 said:


> Something like this, for example:
> (Can't post URL's)


Looks like it's still a 1-1 connection, though. The info seems to need 4 external eSATA ports on the PC/device. It's hard to tell with these things, but while lots of them use SATA drives internally, it's harder to find one that does all the RAID internally as well, and presents itself via a single eSATA port. 

The other one is even harder to tell.


----------



## Jazhuis

Oh, and this frame is total money:


----------



## Bierboy

Jazhuis said:


> Oh, and this frame is total money:


YES :up: :up: :up:


----------



## davezatz

Should we have a caption contest?


----------



## Shawn95GT

Hehe - here is a cleanier pic without the .GIF fuzz (not much of an improvement, but why not if anyone is photoshopping their captions in):


----------



## jsmeeker

I'm really suprised more people don't have the ability to see this on their TiVos.

Anyway, I would think that the yellow star promotion should be popping up any day now.


----------



## Shawn95GT

The video before the lifetime x-fer promo says 'buy it now' all over it, so they probably won't release the video until you can order it.


----------



## jsmeeker

Shawn95GT said:


> The video before the lifetime x-fer promo says 'buy it now' all over it, so they probably won't release the video until you can order it.


of course not.. But they wouldn't broadcast the video *weeks* before it went on sale. Just days.


----------



## Ziggy86

I have a series 2 at home but do not have HD cable service. Will I be able to use the new series 3? I would like to take advantage of the transfer of my lifetime service but I wanted to know if it would work without HD


----------



## cwoody222

Yes, you can use the S3 without HD if you wish.


----------



## echodave

I caught this promo while performing my usual morning routine...blearily turn off alarm, head downstairs, groggily turn on tv that's set via the Tivo to hit the morning news starting at 5:30, and see if anything interesting came in via email overnight while drinking that vital first cup of coffee. Like other folks, the promo interrupted the news I was watching...and for once, I'm glad I didn't tell it to pick it up later.

I'm impressed by the offer, but I'm still incredibly torn as to whether or not I'm going to take advantage of it. I've got five Tivos in the house, all series 2 (3 Tivo branded, one Toshiba, one Humax), all with the lifetime subscription, and all functioning fine and dandy as they are. I've got three of them hooked up to the 3 HDTV's I have in the house, and to be honest, I don't see a whole lot of difference in the picture quality when I view through the Tivo, directly through the cable input, or via the cable box...and I don't know that "not a whole lot of difference" is worth (a roughly estimated) $1,000 per unit  to pick up the new Series 3 boxes to replace them. Yes, there is a difference...but is it $1,000 worth of difference?

Granted, the existing series 2's could be turned into gifts or sold...but I don't know that I'm nice enough of a guy to blow $3,000 just to have a few units to dump off, especially since there are other new toys coming out towards the end of the year that I'm going to want to get my hands on. Granted, Sony has officially torqued me off enough with the recent PS3 debacle announcements that I'm off that bandwagon so that money's freed up...but still...

...I guess I'd like to hear from folks *why  * they're now suddenly so anxious to run out and pick a series 3 when, from the lurking that I've been doing here, the only real change is the opportunity to fork out another $200 for your same lifetime subscription.

I can be swayed...educate me.


----------



## ah30k

echodave said:


> ...I've got three of them hooked up to the 3 HDTV's I have in the house, and to be honest, I don't see a whole lot of difference in the picture quality when I view through the Tivo, directly through the cable input, or via the cable box...


I can't believe you don't see a difference between TiVo SD and STB HD boradcasts! If you are comparing the TiVo SD to the STB SD then fine, but comparing the TiVo SD to an HD show is like night and day!!!

1) Full widescreen
2) Much higher resolution
3) Surround sound

Sign me up for the S3 as soon as possible!


----------



## Stu_Bee

Ability to record HD. But if you can't tell the difference between a SD signal and an HD signal, then that's a good reason to save your money.


----------



## jeffrypennock

Stu_Bee said:


> Ability to record HD. But if you can't tell the difference between a SD signal and an HD signal, then that's a good reason to save your money.


Well, it's a good reason to get your vision checked also.


----------



## echodave

ah30k said:


> I can't believe you don't see a difference between TiVo SD and STB HD boradcasts! If you are comparing the TiVo SD to the STB SD then fine, but comparing the TiVo SD to an HD show is like night and day!!!
> 
> 1) Full widescreen
> 2) Much higher resolution
> 3) Surround sound
> 
> Sign me up for the S3 as soon as possible!


[chuckle] Perhaps I'm not as big of a geek as I've been accused of. I stand in awe of the unabashed Kool-Aid drinkers. 

Like I said, yes, there *is* a difference, much like the difference between catching a movie on HBO versus HBOHD...but my problem is that I'm not sure that even my geek factor can rationalize the $1,000 a pop for that difference.

If it gets a little more reasonable, and drops by a couple hundred bucks, I'll likely talk myself into it and be all over it (for some reason, my brain has no problem with a 3 x $600 or maybe even a 3 x $700 pricetag but balks at 1 x $1,000...I never said I was always logical and/or rational) but I just really can't think my way through $1,000, possibly since two of those series 2's were picked up and lifetimed within the last year.


----------



## ah30k

echodave said:


> [chuckle] Like I said, yes, there *is* a difference, [


 I thought you said you couldn't see much of a difference.



echodave said:


> ...but my problem is that I'm not sure that even my geek factor can rationalize the $1,000 a pop for that difference.[


 Now this is a totally fair question. Many are wondering the same thing.


----------



## DancnDude

A few more reasons people want to upgrade...
- Get rid of your cable box (in addition, no IR blasters)
- Add an additional tuner (assuming you don't have a S2 DT)
- LCD screen on the front that tells you what's recording on each tuner
- It records the actual digital stream, so you always get "best" quality for digital channels


----------



## greg_burns

echodave said:


> I've got three of them hooked up to the 3 HDTV's I have in the house, and to be honest, I don't see a whole lot of difference in the picture quality when I view through the Tivo, directly through the cable input, or via the cable box...


What are the screen sizes of your HDTV's? My 31" HDTV is very nice with HD, but not _stunning_. It is much more appreciable with BIG screens, IMO.


----------



## classicX

DancnDude said:


> I was not planning on buying the Series 3 right away since I don't have an HDTV yet, but I want to get both in the coming year. I'm happy with my current TiVos and didn't really need more, but this deal pretty much hooked me. I'll probably now transfer my Series 1 so I can network the Series 3 and transfer shows to my Series 2 machines as well.
> 
> So for me, this promo has gotten me interested in Series 3 a lot earlier than I would have been if I would have to pay monthly.


Or you could by your lifetime S3 for $1000 and then sell it on eBay for $1500+.

Yum.


----------



## echodave

DancnDude said:


> - Add an additional tuner (assuming you don't have a S2 DT)


See, to me at least, that reason doesn't have much appeal to me. That's why I have five of the suckers in the first place...if I'm watching something and want to grab something else...well, that's what the other units and being able to transfer over the wireless network are for.



DancnDude said:


> - Get rid of your cable box (in addition, no IR blasters)


I don't mind the cable boxes - the IR blasters I could definitely live without though. Hmmm...now that I've said that, I guess I ought to go see what the actual monthly fee per cable box in the house is, and do a little math. The rationalization might be easier.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.


----------



## davezatz

classicX said:


> Or you could by your lifetime S3 for $1000 and then sell it on eBay for $1500+.


How large is the market that would pay that much?


----------



## MickeS

echodave said:


> ...I guess I'd like to hear from folks *why  * they're now suddenly so anxious to run out and pick a series 3 when, from the lurking that I've been doing here, the only real change is the opportunity to fork out another $200 for your same lifetime subscription.


Like I wrote somewhere else, it's easy to be analytical and rational when everything is just hypothetical, but when it is actually a real scenario, then it's "DAMN I WANT IT!"


----------



## jfh3

davezatz said:


> How large is the market that would pay that much?


Who knows? We thought the first eBay sales of the lifetime cards at $499 were crazy and that there would be no market.

And then the prices just went up.

But since Tivo put a suggested value of $1500 on a Series 3 with lifetime during the Idol Speculation contest, I'll bet someone will sell a lifetimed S3 on eBay for that and get it.


----------



## Bierboy

MickeS said:


> Like I wrote somewhere else, it's easy to be analytical and rational when everything is just hypothetical, but when it is actually a real scenario, then it's "DAMN I WANT IT!"


And I think those folks were just LOOKING for an excuse to jump on this bandwagon while initially trying to give the impression they were disinterested in paying that "much" money.


----------



## DancnDude

echodave said:


> See, to me at least, that reason doesn't have much appeal to me. That's why I have five of the suckers in the first place...if I'm watching something and want to grab something else...well, that's what the other units and being able to transfer over the wireless network are for.


That's also 5 Season Pass Managers to manage.  The dual tuners use a single SPM and figure out the top 2 shows that it can record at any given time automatically. I know with my multiple TiVos, I'm checking each TiVo to see what is recording what in order to add a Season Pass that gets everything I want with no conflicts. Unless each of the units is in a different room, you could replace 2 S2 units with a single S3 and get the same or better functionality.


----------



## ufo4sale

What's the cut off date for a grandfather lifetime?


----------



## ufo4sale

Nervermind I found my answer.


----------



## davezatz

jfh3 said:


> Who knows? We thought the first eBay sales of the lifetime cards at $499 were crazy and that there would be no market. And then the prices just went up.


Assuming the $800 price we keep hearing is accurate, that means someone would be paying $700 for Lifetime Service. That's about 4.5 years to break even at $12.95/mo and 8+ years at $6.95. Hopefully, I'll have a S4 by then.  I'm not saying there wouldn't be any takers, I just wonder how many - I can't imagine it would be a large number.


----------



## classicX

jfh3 said:


> Who knows? We thought the first eBay sales of the lifetime cards at $499 were crazy and that there would be no market.
> 
> And then the prices just went up.
> 
> But since Tivo put a suggested value of $1500 on a Series 3 with lifetime during the Idol Speculation contest, I'll bet someone will sell a lifetimed S3 on eBay for that and get it.


 :up:

That's where I got the price from. I you bet there are people that would pay it *ahem*Chucky*ahem*

Especially people with no other way to get lifetime on a Tivo (like me).

Personally I wouldn't buy an S3 for $800, so I sure as heck wouldn't buy a lifetime one for $1500, but to each his own.


----------



## lessd

Ziggy86 said:


> I have a series 2 at home but do not have HD cable service. Will I be able to use the new series 3? I would like to take advantage of the transfer of my lifetime service but I wanted to know if it would work without HD


The Series will work without a Cable Card but in that case it will do no more then a Series 2 DT (The Series 2 DT will run an external cable box and the Series 3 will not do that) and record (up to two programs at the same time) the first 99 analog channels of your cable system.

The series is meant to replace a HV-DVR cable box by putting in two Cable Cards


----------



## echodave

greg_burns said:


> What are the screen sizes of your HDTV's? My 31" HDTV is very nice with HD, but not _stunning_. It is much more appreciable with BIG screens, IMO.


39" in the bedroom, 57" in the living room and 65" in the basement.

You may actually be onto something. Most of my experimentation has been in the bedroom.

Wait...that doesn't sound right... 

Anyway, in all due seriousness, I do think I've done more playing around with the differences on the 39". Maybe I'll mess around with the larger screens and see what I think.



DancnDude said:


> Unless each of the units is in a different room, you could replace 2 S2 units with a single S3 and get the same or better functionality.


5 TVs with individual Tivos spread throughout the three levels of the house: Basement, Salon (my wife's a hairdresser and I built her a salon a separate area in the basement), Living Room (main floor), Front Room (main floor) and Bedroom (upstairs)...so yep, they're spread out.


----------



## classicX

echodave said:


> 5 TVs with individual Tivos spread throughout the three levels of the house: Basement, Salon (my wife's a hairdresser and I built her a salon a separate area in the basement), Living Room (main floor), Front Room (main floor) and Bedroom (upstairs)...so yep, they're spread out.


[OFF TOPIC]

Just out of curiousity, do you have a big family who all watch different things?

It boggles my mind that someone would need that many televisions unless that were the case. I'll give you the salon one, but why have a Tivo in there?

[/OFF TOPIC]


----------



## drosoph

Without having to dig too hard, how many hours is a S3 (Standard Definition Recording at lowest quality) ??? Also, is than a SATA or an eSATA port on the S3?


----------



## echodave

classicX said:


> [OFF TOPIC]
> 
> Just out of curiousity, do you have a big family who all watch different things?
> 
> It boggles my mind that someone would need that many televisions unless that were the case. I'll give you the salon one, but why have a Tivo in there?
> 
> [/OFF TOPIC]


Sadly, no. For the moment, it's just the wife and I. Basically, here's how it all evolved:

- The Tivo that is now in the salon is the first one that I ever bought. It was originally hooked into the 65" tv. These were two of my "happy divorce" presents to myself.

- I bought a second one to have on the tv that was in my bedroom.

- Eventually, my (then) girlfriend at the time wants one. I get one for her.

- We buy a house together. Women, like nature, cats, and dogs abhor vacuums created by empty space. In order to fill up the empty space, additional purchases were made including a 57" tv. The original tivo stays with the 65" tv. The 57" tv gets a new Toshiba unit. The front room gets the tv and tivo from my old bedroom. The tv and unit from her house moves into our bedroom.

- The salon is built. A tv is placed in it.

- Tivo announces that they will no longer be selling lifetime subscriptions. I'd been thinking about getting one of the DVD-R units, and since I'll be damned if I'm paying a monthly fee, I go buy one of the Humax units with a DVD burner in it. This is attached to the 65" tv, and the original Tivo unit is now moved into the salon.

So...that's why there are five TVs and Tivos in the house.

That, and, umm...well, I'm sort of an impulse shopper when it comes to gadgets and toys. Hence the reason that I'm looking for rationalization assistance 

Living Room: Records the shows we typically watch together.

Front Room: Records episodes of various Law and Order flavors that we'll transfer over if nothing's on, as well as the "Extreme Makeover" shows that I have zero interest in and she can watch when I'm not around.

Basement: Records the stuff that I like but she doesn't. South Park, etc.

Salon: Were it not for the lifetime subscription already on it, it'd be a dead box. However, since it's there, she uses it to grab whatever shows she thinks her clients will want to watch, and keeps several of those on there for whenever they're there.

Bedroom: Mostly brain candy stuff to fall asleep to. Iron Chef. Miami Vice. The occasional, well, it's called Skinemax for a reason [chuckle]

It's all really quite rational, logical, and well thought out, I assure you.

Mostly.

Sorta.

Okay, maybe not.


----------



## Jazhuis

greg_burns said:


> What are the screen sizes of your HDTV's? My 31" HDTV is very nice with HD, but not _stunning_. It is much more appreciable with BIG screens, IMO.


I just got a 56" Samsung, and I will say that INHD and INHD2 are amazing...depending on the program content. Even the difference between SD Fox and HD Fox is huge (even if it's "only" 720p).

So yeah, HD is probably more appreciable once you get > 40" or so. On the flip side, getting a larger TV really shows the poor quality of SD content.


----------



## davezatz

Jazhuis said:


> (even if it's "only" 720p)


I'd argue there isn't much difference in quality between 720p and 1080i anyway, but it'd be off topic.


----------



## TiVo Troll

drosoph said:


> Without having to dig too hard, how many hours is a S3 (Standard Definition Recording at lowest quality) ???


When the appropriate channel is selected for recording a program it will be possible to choose between recording in standard or high-def on Series 3. I'd never use basic, the lowest setting, but high quality will work as good as always for standard-def for probably more hours than I'll ever use.


----------



## TiVo Troll

DCIFRTHS said:


> A recorded announcement asking us to call back when the S3 is available would be good too.


The least they could do and still maintain decent PR!


----------



## TiVo Troll

cap said:


> Yeah I think I'll just hold onto those videos then.
> 
> Sorry guys.
> I'm sure you'll see them soon enough.


I edited the buffered recording of Teleworld and have it saved on the Philips' hard drive. Normally I'd offer to make and mail a DVD+R of it to whomever would put it online, but I'm splittin' tomorrow, and don't have time.


----------



## MichaelK

a 32 inch HD TV is plenty big enough to see the differnce between SD and HD if you sit 2 feet away. On the flip side if you have a 50 inch and sit 25 feet away I'm not sure the human eye can detect the increased detail.

So it's not just hiow big the set is but how far away.

CNET I think used to have a chart of how close you would need to sit to see the difference in detail.


----------



## tunnelengineer

I have a 52" set and I can't tell much difference from 16 feet away. When sitting on the couch which is 8-9 feet away the difference is like night and day. 

Has anyone seen any screenshots of the s3 Tivo menus? I am wondering how they differentiate SD and HD recordings. Also wondering if there is any way to set higher priorities for HS shows than over SD shows?


----------



## Bierboy

drosoph said:


> Without having to dig too hard, how many hours is a S3 (Standard Definition Recording at lowest quality) ??? Also, is than a SATA or an eSATA port on the S3?


300 and yes.


----------



## TiVo Troll

echodave said:


> ...I guess I'd like to hear from folks *why  * they're now suddenly so anxious to run out and pick a series 3 when, from the lurking that I've been doing here, the only real change is the opportunity to fork out another $200 for your same lifetime subscription.
> 
> I can be swayed...educate me.


I won't buy a DVR, other than a cable DVR which is rented cheap without obligation, which requires monthly service payments. (In fact I still have a Dish 501, which doesn't require a monthly fee, if we ever go back to satellite.) So it's really nice to see this offer from TiVo just as an affirmation that, for some people, Lifetime Service is a deal maker.

That being said, I do have a Lifetime Gift Card and it may make sense to use it next year after Series 3's price drops.

I'd actually like to see an upgraded dual tuner Series 2 which can integrate analog and digital OTA with cable. That would be worth applying Lifetime service to as much as Series 3. (The Gift Card is good for 2 1/2 years.)

Why get Series 3 at all? Because it's really neat! But the decision is yours.


----------



## TiVo Troll

MichaelK said:


> CNET I think used to have a chart of how close you would need to sit to see the difference in detail.


*Here's* one!


----------



## greg_burns

TiVo Troll said:


> *Here's* one!


I'd better pull the couch a little closer.


----------



## echodave

greg_burns said:


> I'd better pull the couch a little closer.


You and me, both. If that's accurate, then no wonder I'm not as amped up as some other folks are. I'm at least 1.5x their "maximum viewing distance" for all three HDTVs.


----------



## MichaelK

tunnelengineer said:


> ... Also wondering if there is any way to set higher priorities for HS shows than over SD shows?


it's pretty simple for season passes since they are keyed to the channel. You just set up all your HD channel SP's first then the SD channel ones.

FOr Wishlists it gets tougher but can get done (but you seem to get duplicates)- for example on my HR10-250: My first SP/wishlist is "Teamname AT" program type HD (or somthing like that). Then all my HD SP's. THen there is a season pass for "teamname AT" events live (or similar) and all my SD season passes.

First think it's gets my HD baseball games. Then HD season bases. Then SD baseball games (but seems to record both the HD version above and the SD version if both exist). Then it gets my SD season passes.

I wish TiVO owuld figure out how to set up season passes for sports teams...


----------



## echodave

MichaelK said:


> I wish TiVO owuld figure out how to set up season passes for sports teams...


I've thought that same thing, but it's not exactly a problem with an easy solution. For instance, I'm a huge hockey fan, particularly the Red Wings. However, even local broadcasts jump around - sometimes they're on Fox, sometimes they're on Fox Sports Net, sometimes later in the year NBC picks up some broadcasts, then maybe they're on CBC and should it catch the US or Canada based broadcast of that game, last year there were plenty of games on OLN which meant they might also be on HDNET...and so which one of those should it grab, etc.


----------



## MichaelK

echodave said:


> You and me, both. If that's accurate, then no wonder I'm not as amped up as some other folks are. I'm at least 1.5x their "maximum viewing distance" for all three HDTVs.


As much as they seem EXTREME I think they are correct.

I had a 33- 35ish inch SD set and decided to change out to HD. I did the math and figured a 42 inch 16:9 was slightly larger then my old set as far as height. So I figured that was good enough and I'd get a little larger. The charts all said I should get a 60 for my room. I thought that INSANE. BUt i got a good deal on a 50 so i went with that. I remember bringing it home and thinking it's awfully big. After a while I realized I really could have gotten the 60 inch and it would have been good.

I tell all my friedns looking for advice that story and they all think I'm insane about what size to get. Then they buy and "undersized" set and months later they tell me I was right they should have gotten bigger.

There's nothign wrong with getting a smaller set, but it's actually somethign of a waste if you sit too far away- the human eye just wont make out the detail. THink of lookign at an eye chart at 20 feet- you see everything. Now I move the eye chart out 100 feet- you probably only see the E. What if I use a smoother font on the E and make it "HD"- wont matter you'll never see it. There's just a limit to the amount of detail a human can see- so at some point there is no sense in getting more detail. Sort of the same goes for digital cameras- if all you ever plan to do is print 3x5's then getting an 8 megapixel camera wont really produce better pictures then like a 2 megapixel. If you blow the same pictures up to 30X50 you will clearly see the details. (ignoring cropping and all that...)

My second set I "undersized" again, but it was becasue that was the only size that would fit on the peice of wall I had. Just going by the height again, a 32 inch HD was taller then the set it replace- I went with a 37 to fit the space, but probably a 42-50 inch would be better. I actually watch only SD on that set(waiting for the S3 to come down in price or some other miracle...) and I cant see the differnce from were I sit. When I walk closer it looks horrid but from where i see my eye's blend all the blockiness and so be it.

When time comes to replace the first on in the living room, I'll personally be followign the chart and getting the billboard sized set.


----------



## MichaelK

echodave said:


> I've thought that same thing, but it's not exactly a problem with an easy solution. For instance, I'm a huge hockey fan, particularly the Red Wings. However, even local broadcasts jump around - sometimes they're on Fox, sometimes they're on Fox Sports Net, sometimes later in the year NBC picks up some broadcasts, then maybe they're on CBC and should it catch the US or Canada based broadcast of that game, last year there were plenty of games on OLN which meant they might also be on HDNET...and so which one of those should it grab, etc.


Myself, I'd rather set up the 5 or 10 season passes rather then the current method. WIth Hockey a wishlist is probably fine (I assume there are no duplicates stations carrying games?)- Same for football (I have a wishlist for my football team and that's perfect). But WIth baseball it's a pain. Many times a season my team plays on the RSN BUT there is a national showing of the game on ESPN2 and even sometimes EPSN. If you dont "scrub" the wishlist to do, then at times the tivo will attempt to record the national feed which is blacked out and you;ll get 3-6 hours of blank screen instead of your game. I usually watch the games a little behind- say an hour or so in, so I dont miss the whole thing, buit it's annoying if one slips by and I cant see what happend the first 3 innings...


----------



## Jazhuis

davezatz said:


> I'd argue there isn't much difference in quality between 720p and 1080i anyway, but it'd be off topic.


I wouldn't argue against you, anyway. I just like picking on Fox.


----------



## btwyx

drosoph said:


> Without having to dig too hard, how many hours is a S3 (Standard Definition Recording at lowest quality) ???


One of the big advantages of the S3 is, for the most part, it does away with quality levels. Only analog inputs, (NTSC OTA or analog cable), actually gets compressed by the box. Everything else (digital cable, ATSC OTA) just records whatever gets sent to it, and plays it back *EXACTLY*. You get capacity like lowest quality recording, and playback better than best quality (its actually perfect quality, as perfect as the signal sent to you anyway).

I think the number is about 200 hours of SD, you can't be exact, because it depends on what bit rate is sent to you.


----------



## Bierboy

btwyx said:


> ...I think the number is about 200 hours of SD, you can't be exact, because it depends on what bit rate is sent to you.


TiVo's promotional placard at CES2006 said up to 300 hours of SD, so I'm sure you're in the ballpark.


----------



## btwyx

Bierboy said:


> TiVo's promotional placard at CES2006 said up to 300 hours of SD, so I'm sure you're in the ballpark.


I was going by the same numbers they use for DTiVos (like mine is 515hrs for 600GB), but I really hope the cable company doesn't send as crappy a signal as D* does.


----------



## jfh3

For those that can't wait to see it, here's the next best thing:

_Video opens with spotlights shining on movie theatre marquee
_

Sneak Preview Today! (w/ THX logo)

TiVo

NOW PLAYING

IN HIGH DEFINITION !!!

_Very Hollywood premier like music playing.

Cut to longer shot of theatre.

Cut to town car pulling to the curb near a red carpet.
_

Right rear passenger door is opened and the TiVo guy (TG) bounces out on to the red carpet.

TG hops into a theatre lobby. Three women and the concession sales girl all wave hello. Large popcorn machine and bags of popcorn are visible.

TG stops in front of a "Now Showing" poster that has

"Three Thumbs Way Up!" below three Tivo ThumbsUp! symbols, next to the new HD Tivo logo. At the bottom of the poster is "TiVo. HD" with Tivo written in color and "Series 3 Digital Media Recorder" below

TG winks at the audience. TG opens the door to an empty theater somersaults down the main aisle.

_
Cut to view of stage._

TG in foreground and backflips into the screen while we hear people clapping (remember, the theatre is empty), disappearing into the new HD logo in the center of the screen. We hear the THX theme and the logo moves left and "with THX" appears.

_Close up of screen._

Cut to Shanan, who looks great in a dress from a 40's movie premiere, wearing elegant black gloves and standing behind a royal blue background, though the initial shot could've been shot better.

"Ladies and Gentlemen,

Introducing the new Tivo Series 3 HD Digital Media Recorder." over a video of the box with graphics saying "Tivo service in High Definition. The DMR rotates as the new remote crosses in from right to left in the foreground.

"The best way to experience television, now in high definition. Only Tivo can bring you the highest quality High Definition entertainment experience possible. Check it out."

_Cut to more video of DMR and remote. Shanan voice over:_

"Now you can watch your favorite digital cable programs in high definition whenever you want.

Whether you're watching your favorite sports or a favorite film, prepare for an HD experience that's going to rock your home theatre.

It's the worlds' first and only HD recorder with THX certification. What does that mean? It means no compromise when it comes to sound or picture. The quality of your recordings will stay true to the original broadcast, so you always get the high definition experience as it was intended.

Engineers at THX agree - if you have an HD TV, the Series 3 is a must have. 
Two tuners record two shows at the same time, and, go ahead, watch a third prerecorded show while you're at it.

Videophiles will love it when I say this - the Series 3 HD box provides an all digital connection to your high end display.

With broadband, you'll also have access to Tivo's advanced features, including online scheduling, digital photos, music, internet radio, and more.

And how about this? It's sleek, it's glossy, it's the new Tivo remote designed especially for the Tivo Series 3. Backlit for your viewing pleasure, and, it's a learning remote so it's super easy to configure for your TV.

Check this out - the high quality front panel display shows what's being recorded, even when the TV is off. And since silence is golden when it comes to home theartre, it also sports a custom vibration dampening system which makes it the world's [whispers] quietest DVR [endwhisper]!

The Tivo Series 3 HD box works with digital cable and is supported by all major cable providers.

So, don't compromise when it comes to your home theatre. Get the very top of the line sound, the highest quality picture and the Emmy award winning Tivo service all in one incredible box.

Only with Tivo. Buy your Tivo Series 3 HD DMR today at tivo.com."

_Cut back to marquee._

"Buy it Now!"

WWW.TIVO.COM

1-877-BUY-TiVo

_End credits._

While Shanan is talking, there is overlaid video of Tivo Central, the Now Playing list, lots of pictures of the DMR and remote, video of THX engineers, and the various broadband features.

Up to 25 hours in High Definition, Up to 300 hours in Standard Definition.

-------------------------------------------------------

Not going to transcribe the $199 offer video offer, but it's in a similar style with Shanan and targeted for "our some of our most loyal customers".


----------



## DancnDude

I don't have an HD set yet, and I never really noticed the difference between SD and HD until I was at a bar that had both. Across the room, you could still see the HD set's picture clearly and the SD TV's showing the same basketball game were blurry. This is what made me excited to get one.


----------



## smak

I don't know if this situation has been mentioned here in this long thread, but i'll bring it up.

This is a scenario I can see happening, including with myself.

I have two lifetimed series 2's.

I buy a series 3 for $800 (maybe with a $150 rebate). I transfer one series 2 to the series 3 for $200.

Now, I don't really need EITHER of my series 2's. Of course, some people have them in different rooms, but i just use the 2nd one for extra storage.

So now, I have 1 80 hr series 2 with lifetime to sell, and 1 80 hour series 2 with 1 year service to sell.

So that's going to get me back a huge chunk of that $1000. I may end up getting the series 2 for as low as $300 total, and still have 2 tuners and a ton of storage space.

-smak-


----------



## classicX

TiVo Troll said:


> *Here's* one!


That must be a joke. It said I need a 143 inch screen at my viewing distance to view HD. That's just bollacks - I can see the difference between HD and SD just find on my 50" screen.

It also said the maximum viewing distance from my screen was 6.5 feet. You MUST be kidding me. I prefer to not have to turn my head to see the whole screen, TYVM.

I think this one is a bit closer to reality.


----------



## MickeS

That calculator linked to by TiVo Troll seems perfectly accurate to me.


----------



## ckelly33

The following is a quote from TiVoPony this past spring:

*Q. Can I transfer my Product Lifetime service contract to new hardware?

A. For Product Lifetime, the answer is no, just like today. This isn't really part of our announcement and the rules haven't changed, but since this is a frequently asked question I'm including it here. Product Lifetime is always tied to the specific box that you activated, as defined in the terms of the Product Lifetime Description: http://www.tivo.com/0.4.asp*

So which is it? Can I transfer my 2002 "product" lifetime to a S3 or not? Has something changed that I am missing with this anouncement or is this the same deal that was discussed back in March/April of this year (which doesn't include "product" lifetime warranties)?


----------



## echodave

ckelly33 said:


> So which is it? Can I transfer my 2002 "product" lifetime to a S3 or not? Has something changed that I am missing with this aanouncement or is this the same deal that was discussed back in March/April of this year (which doesn't include "product" lifetime warranties)?


This appears to be a limited-time offer in conjunction with the Series 3 release, so it's not an "either/or" situation - it's an exception to the rule. You can't transfer from a series 1 to a new series 2, or from one series 2 to another series 2, only from an existing machine to a new series 3.


----------



## eisenb11

jfh3,

Hmm, is that video currently playing?

I went to the website, but couldn't find a way to buy it...?


----------



## echodave

eisenb11 said:


> jfh3,
> 
> Hmm, is that video currently playing?
> 
> I went to the website, but couldn't find a way to buy it...?


- The video just downloaded with yesterday's updates. It doesn't appear to be accessible via the actual interface...yet.

- They're not for sale...yet.


----------



## eisenb11

Ah ok, that makes sense.

I wasnt sure if the video was actually playing or if he cheated to get to it


----------



## jfh3

eisenb11 said:


> Ah ok, that makes sense.
> 
> I wasnt sure if the video was actually playing or if he cheated to get to it


I didn't "cheat" any more than the original poster did ... 

Who knows when the videos will be "visible" in the Showcase.

One of the items in the show appeared today as part of a gold star showcase (CBS Fantasty Football), so it might be soon. I'd be surprised if we didn't see these videos in the next week


----------



## russwong

I was wondering if people were taking into account the costs to get cable cards from the cable company?

Does your cable company charge?

I have Comcast in the bay area and I believe it's $6.95 per cable card, as it acts as a receiver. So that's an additional $14 bucks per month to use a Series 3 if using both cable cards.

I'm assuming based on the description, that it cant not record unencrypted digital channels, that would allow me to bypass the cable card. Any clarification on that?

What's the thought on this new monthly service fee on top of either the S3 transfer deal or signing up a new S3?


----------



## maki

11 pages?!


----------



## ThomC

Can I buy someone else's lifetime S1 or S2 sub and then turn around and get the S3 deal?


----------



## eisenb11

russwong,

My area is TWC. My neighbor got a CC installed in his TV and it was only costing him like $1.50/month.


----------



## maki

TWC http://www.timewarnercable.com/CustomerService/FAQ/TWCFaqs.ashx?faqID=683&MarketID=25


----------



## lessd

ThomC said:


> Can I buy someone else's lifetime S1 or S2 sub and then turn around and get the S3 deal?


Yes but the cost is about the same as a E-Bay gift card for a series 2. Now for a series 1 you may be able to get a deal. I got $465 for a series 2 40h unit with lifetime 3 or so months ago which is about $400 for the lifetime (a Series 2 may get you $65 on E-Bay that does not have lifetime) $400 + $200 = $600 close to the lifetime gift card cost on E-Bay. But a non working series 1 with lifetime..maybe a deal.


----------



## eisenb11

If you pick your sources carefully you can still find deals.

Stay away from eBay, A/V sites (like here), and the like. People on there know what's up and know that they are worth a lot.

Try things like local classifieds, lesser known sites, usenet, etc...

I picked up a Series 1 w Lifetime locally yesterday for $40 by doing this.


----------



## jeffrypennock

I have TWC Houston. I THINK it's only like $1.99/card/mo. I called last night and confirmed that I can go pick up the CC at the counter...no installation fee or truck roll required HERE. But I know this varies from company to company and market to market.
...for what it's worth.


----------



## eisenb11

Not bad Jeff!

Im in the LA area... Apparently they require a rollout here, but there's no installation fee.


----------



## jfh3

russwong said:


> I have Comcast in the bay area and I believe it's $6.95 per cable card, as it acts as a receiver. So that's an additional $14 bucks per month to use a Series 3 if using both cable cards.


No. If you have digital service already with Comcast, the $6.95 is included in the service. You only have to pay again if you are also keeping the cable box. As for the second card, if you use the language on Comcast's site, it should be free, since it's for programming on the same outlet.



> I'm assuming based on the description, that it cant not record unencrypted digital channels, that would allow me to bypass the cable card. Any clarification on that?


You wil be able to record unencrypted digital channels without needing a cable card. Whether you can map those channels to the Tivo guide is unknown.



> What's the thought on this new monthly service fee on top of either the S3 transfer deal or signing up a new S3?


If you take the transfer deal, there is NO monthly service fee on the S3.


----------



## m_jonis

Hmmm, makes me wonder. Take my existing Lifetime series 2, transfer to Series for $200. (get about 26 months out of it). By then, I'm forced to sell my series 3 because of SDV (and maybe MAYBE by then a Series 3.5/4.0 comes out with CC 2.0)

Then get rid of my other series 2 monthly ($6.95/month) and get a DT model (same fee).

For some reason I think I'm better ahead selling my series 2 lifetime on eBay, buying a Series 2 DT and waiting a few months for the Series 3 to price drop and buy it and pay just the $6.95/month for that as well.

Or am I missing something here?


----------



## maki

m_jonis said:


> Hmmm, makes me wonder. Take my existing Lifetime series 2, transfer to Series for $200. (get about 26 months out of it). By then, I'm forced to sell my series 3 because of SDV (and maybe MAYBE by then a Series 3.5/4.0 comes out with CC 2.0)
> 
> Then get rid of my other series 2 monthly ($6.95/month) and get a DT model (same fee).
> 
> For some reason I think I'm better ahead selling my series 2 lifetime on eBay, buying a Series 2 DT and waiting a few months for the Series 3 to price drop and buy it and pay just the $6.95/month for that as well.
> 
> Or am I missing something here?


If you have no immediate need or desire for the S3 this sounds like a fine plan. No sense in blowing all that cash up front when you can spread it over several years.


----------



## jcblack

You aren't transferring lifetime for $200, as a reward for cancelling your s1/s2 lifetime you get to buy an s3 lifetime for $200. I don't know. I'm not about to give up my lifetime on my S1 (no, I don't really need 2 tivos so I won't be "transferring" and then going monthly on my hacked s1).


----------



## cheerdude

Also... while nothing has been said one way or another - This is all assuming that the monthly fee for the Series 3 will be the 6.95/12.95 as the other models are.


----------



## maki

jcblack said:


> You aren't transferring lifetime for $200, as a reward for cancelling your s1/s2 lifetime you get to buy an s3 lifetime for $200. I don't know. I'm not about to give up my lifetime on my S1 (no, I don't really need 2 tivos so I won't be "transferring" and then going monthly on my hacked s1).


That's true. It's like S3 lifetime is $400 or $500 (depending on when you bought lifetime).


----------



## mattack

lessd said:


> The Series will work without a Cable Card but in that case it will do no more then a Series 2 DT (The Series 2 DT will run an external cable box and the Series 3 will not do that) and record (up to two programs at the same time) the first 99 analog channels of your cable system.


Well, it will record OTA digital and unencrypted cable digital (QAM) channels. That's more than the series 2 DT.

I don't even have an HDTV, but this offer is still compelling to me. I'll do more analysis after the official rollout, if there is a mailin rebate that will still apply, etc.. But I'm one of those who will gamble/pay a possibly illogical amount now in return for no extra monthly payment. (Heck, it was the lifetime fee increase from $199 to $249 that got me to actually buy one in the first place... Though I ended up missing the cutoff.. I've still gotten a great deal in retrospect.)


----------



## SNJpage1

I have a ser 2 unit that is only 1 yr old. I had an older one that broke down but was replaced by the extented warranty that I had taken out on it and the life time sub was transfered over to it. Originally it was hooked up to the TV of my home theater. However a few months ago I bought a HD plasma. I am renting the comcast DVR and the tivo is now connected to the living room TV. I hate the Comcast DVR and will get the Tivo ser 3 when it comes out. However, I dont think I will tranfer the life time to it. I plan on keeping the ser 2 connected to the living room TV because my wife has a problem using the new plasma. So the ser 3 will only cost me the reduced second unit fee. Transfering the fee would cost me $199 minus the $72 of free one year service fee. If I was getting rid of the ser 2 then it would be worth the money to transfer.


----------



## cwoody222

mattack said:


> Well, it will record OTA digital and unencrypted cable digital (QAM) channels. That's more than the series 2 DT.


We do not yet know for sure if the Series3 will handle unencrypted digital calbe (QAM) channels.

It has a QAM tuner but it is not yet known for sure whether the S3 will require a cablecard in order to (layman's terms) get the channel guide data to match up with the QAM channel assignments. If it doesn't do that, the channels are worthless for anything other than live watching and manual recording (in which case TiVo will probably ignore them so as to not be confusing).

Personally I hope clear QAM works but I have my doubts.

My cable co doesn't send PSIP data with their clear QAM so they are worthless without the cablecard. That's something TiVo can't control so I wonder if they'll err on the side of caution and require a cablecard for all.


----------



## lessd

mattack said:


> Well, it will record OTA digital and unencrypted cable digital (QAM) channels. That's more than the series 2 DT.
> 
> I don't even have an HDTV, but this offer is still compelling to me. I'll do more analysis after the official rollout, if there is a mailin rebate that will still apply, etc.. But I'm one of those who will gamble/pay a possibly illogical amount now in return for no extra monthly payment. (Heck, it was the lifetime fee increase from $199 to $249 that got me to actually buy one in the first place... Though I ended up missing the cutoff.. I've still gotten a great deal in retrospect.)


The channels that the Series 3 will receive are based on OTA or cable using at least one cable card. You will not be able to use this TiVo as an open QAM tuner as you can do with a CC HD-TV before you put the cable card in. The TiVo setup is exact and will issue the channels for you ZIP and OTA or your ZIP and the cable system you have in your home. You will not be able to tell the Series 3 to go find the open QAM channels on your cable system and you do the assignment. Some people on this form think the Series 3 will be an open tuning system (no other TiVo has been up to this point) they are wrong. TiVo specs are now out and the only three options for the Series 3 are OTA or one or two cable cards or analog cable Series 2 DT equivalent. If anybody had hard information that refutes this information let them show it.

This is a quote directly form the TiVo spec on the Series 3 that's on the TiVo web sight: I can't get the link to work

Will my Series3 HD work with my cable company?
The TiVo Series3 HD will work with all major cable providers. In order to receive HD Digital channels, you will require (1) or (2) CableCARDs. Without CableCARDs, you will still be able to receive standard definition analog channels


----------



## tweekerz

lol Tiger. GreedBaY!!!!



bpurcell said:
 

> Wow, I wake up this morning thinking nothing much is happening, and then I see THIS!
> 
> Sucks for me, since I sold my lifetime 540 just last week on Ebay! If I'd known they would do this, I definitely would've held off.


----------



## stevereis

Not sure if this is posted anywhere yet but the clip is now on YouTube: Tivo Series 3 HD Lifetime Transfer video


----------



## stevereis

Found the Tivo Series 3 HD Commercial from the same poster.


----------



## DancnDude

Interesting that she called it a DMR (Digital Media Recorder) and not a DVR.


----------



## tweekerz

She isnt hot, so this is not a vaild question, IMHO



tunnelengineer said:


> The real question is - Did she sound hot?


----------



## drew2k

DancnDude said:


> Interesting that she called it a DMR (Digital Media Recorder) and not a DVR.


There's a little bit of a discussion about that over here. I think it's kind of cool - another way for TiVo to distance itself from the rest of the DVRs out there ...


----------



## tweekerz

Sorry for the nag, but isn't it

Safe to say???



d_anders said:


> So it's save to say


----------



## HDTiVo

stevereis said:


> Not sure if this is posted anywhere yet but the clip is now on YouTube: Tivo Series 3 HD Lifetime Transfer video


Thank You !


----------



## Bierboy

Yes, thanks! Very entertaining.....and makes me drool even more!


----------



## HDTiVo

Bierboy said:


> Yes, thanks! Very entertaining.....and makes me drool even more!


Is that why she was doing that 'down boy' move with her hands during the video?


----------



## stevereis

DancnDude said:


> Interesting that she called it a DMR (Digital Media Recorder) and not a DVR.


It's was labelled as such even at CES. Here is a crop of one of megazone's full-res photos...


----------



## TiVo Troll

lessd said:


> The channels that the Series 3 will receive are based on OTA or cable using at least one cable card. You will not be able to use this TiVo as an open QAM tuner as you can do with a CC HD-TV before you put the cable card in. The TiVo setup is exact and will issue the channels for you ZIP and OTA or your ZIP and the cable system you have in your home. You will not be able to tell the Series 3 to go find the open QAM channels on your cable system and you do the assignment. Some people on this form think the Series 3 will be an open tuning system (no other TiVo has been up to this point) they are wrong. TiVo specs are now out and the only three options for the Series 3 are OTA or one or two cable cards or analog cable Series 2 DT equivalent. If anybody had hard information that refutes this information let them show it.
> 
> This is a quote directly form the TiVo spec on the Series 3 that's on the TiVo web sight: I can't get the link to work
> 
> Will my Series3 HD work with my cable company?
> The TiVo Series3 HD will work with all major cable providers. In order to receive HD Digital channels, you will require (1) or (2) CableCARDs. Without CableCARDs, you will still be able to receive standard definition analog channels


Can you post the link that you can't get to work? What you posted looks like the wording in the popup linked to from *here*?

It's too soon to know for sure whether that wording is definitive or merely a simplified description more restricted than Series 3's actual capabilities. Sony's discontinued single tuner HD DVR which uses CableCARD for scrambled digital channels works fine w/o CC for unscrambled digital channels and can even be manually channel mapped.

If Series 3 is severely limited without a CableCARD, I'll get one or two CC's for it (in my area there's no charge except 15.99 for the install). Right now, all talk about Series 3's capabilities w/o CC is just speculation.


----------



## stevereis

TiVo Troll said:


> Can you post the link that you can't get to work? What you posted looks like the wording in the popup linked to from *here*?


Here is a direct link: TiVo CableCARD FAQ


----------



## J4yDubs

DancnDude said:


> Interesting that she called it a DMR (Digital Media Recorder) and not a DVR.


My Toshiba TX20 is called a "Digital Media Server" on the box and everywhere else.

John


----------



## TiVo Troll

On Teleworld the 



 played first directly followed by the 



.


----------



## TiVo Troll

stevereis said:


> Here is a direct link: TiVo CableCARD FAQ


Thanks. That's the exact wording as on the pop-up. Let's see if Reality Bites!


----------



## lessd

TiVo Troll said:


> Can you post the link that you can't get to work? What you posted looks like the wording in the popup linked to from *here*?
> 
> It's too soon to know for sure whether that wording is definitive or merely a simplified description more restricted than Series 3's actual capabilities. Sony's discontinued single tuner HD DVR which uses CableCARD for scrambled digital channels works fine w/o CC for unscrambled digital channels and can even be manually channel mapped.
> 
> If Series 3 is severely limited without a CableCARD, I'll get one or two CC's for it (in my area there's no charge except 15.99 for the install). Right now, all talk about Series 3's capabilities w/o CC is just speculation.


You have the link to the link pop up on Cable Cards


----------



## gthassell

Now here's a thought - though I'm pretty sure it won't happen - but wouldn't it be great if Tivo offered the change to use TiVoReward points to do a S1/S2 Lifetime transfer to an S3.

They wouldn't be getting the $199, but certainly would generate a lot of movement from the most loyal (and encouraging) group of fans.....and it would still get lifetime off the S1/S2 boxes and clear a financial obligation (TiVo Reward points) off their books.

Not only that, but it might be a big push to get more S2 subscriptions moving. Right now, there's nothing of significant value in the TiVo Rewards "store" for me - but a Lifetime transfer for points IS something that would further encourage me to get a few more folks signed up to get me enough points. 

(Do I hear 25,000 points for a tranfser, please???    )

Just a (very wishful) thought.


----------



## megazone

echodave said:


> See, to me at least, that reason doesn't have much appeal to me. That's why I have five of the suckers in the first place...if I'm watching something and want to grab something else...well, that's what the other units and being able to transfer over the wireless network are for.


If you have 2 S2s in one room, keep in mind you can replace two of them with one S3. Transfer the lifetime from one, and sell the otherone WITH lifetime on eBay. You'd get at least $500 going by what is up there now, perhaps more. So that'd take a big chunk out of the S3 cost. And you might get something for the one with the free year too.

Your Toshiba could lose lifetime and revert to TiVo Basic if you just use it for DVD stuff and don't need the networking.


----------



## ufo4sale

here's a question that's probably been answered before but do I need to separate cable lines to record to shows at the same time or can I just split it before it goes into the TiVo?


----------



## phox_mulder

Two inputs.
1 Antenna, 1 Cable, split inside to the two tuners.


phox


----------



## Saturn

Well, I know what I'm buying myself for Christmas. I just told my wife she doesn't need to worry about a gift for me this year. And I don't even have an HDTV yet.


----------



## mikesay98

Sorry if it has, but has it been discussed yet whether or not this deal will only be for those who order from TiVo? I get the feeling the commercial/video implies the deal is only for those who order direct from TiVo?


----------



## 1283

mikesay98 said:


> Sorry if it has, but has it been discussed yet whether or not this deal will only be for those who order from TiVo? I get the feeling the commercial/video implies the deal is only for those who order direct from TiVo?


My guess is yes. That's how the S1->S2 lifetime transfer was done.


----------



## tunnelengineer

stevereis said:


> Not sure if this is posted anywhere yet but the clip is now on YouTube: Tivo Series 3 HD Lifetime Transfer video


It would have been nice for the guy to actually leave trhe video on youtube. It 's a worthless link now......


----------



## greg_burns

tunnelengineer said:


> It would have been nice for the guy to actually leave trhe video on youtube. It 's a worthless link now......


Yanked. But by whom? hmmm...


----------



## greg_burns

c3 said:


> mikesay98 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if it has, but has it been discussed yet whether or not this deal will only be for those who order from TiVo? I get the feeling the commercial/video implies the deal is only for those who order direct from TiVo?
> 
> 
> 
> My guess is yes. That's how the S1->S2 lifetime transfer was done.
Click to expand...

Boy I hope not.


----------



## cwoody222

tunnelengineer said:


> It would have been nice for the guy to actually leave trhe video on youtube. It 's a worthless link now......


Dammit, it was playing all jerky on my Mac so I saved the URL to watch today on my PC at work. I figured no way between 11am and 9am EST it would magically disappear


----------



## jeffrypennock

tunnelengineer said:


> It would have been nice for the guy to actually leave trhe video on youtube. It 's a worthless link now......


No kidding.


----------



## megazone

tunnelengineer said:


> It would have been nice for the guy to actually leave trhe video on youtube. It 's a worthless link now......


I suspect it wasn't pulled by choice - TiVo probably asked/told him to do it.


----------



## ah30k

I'm sure its copyrighted material that TiVo had pulled (either by threat to the poster or by YouTube itself).

BTW it was pulled at 7:00 am eastern. I watched the first one, the second one was pulled, I went back to the first and it was also then pulled. I never got to see the second.


----------



## TiVo Troll

lessd said:


> You have the link to the link pop up on Cable Cards


As I posted *here* I'm inclined to agree with you although the current info is sketchy at best. Too bad!


----------



## TiVo Troll

ah30k said:


> I'm sure its copyrighted material that TiVo had pulled (either by threat to the poster or by YouTube itself).
> 
> BTW it was pulled at 7:00 am eastern. I watched the first one, the second one was pulled, I went back to the first and it was also then pulled. I never got to see the second.


I'm sure that all of this will be moot, and the Series 3 announcement and Lifetime transfer offer will be on everyone's TiVo within two weeks but I did burn a DVD+R of yesteday's Teleworld, and if it turns out that this offer is a chimera, I've got the evidence that at one time it was in the works.


----------



## TiVo Troll

mikesay98 said:


> Sorry if it has, but has it been discussed yet whether or not this deal will only be for those who order from TiVo? I get the feeling the commercial/video implies the deal is only for those who order direct from TiVo?


It was definitely implied in the announcement that Series 3's will be ordered at the VIP site. However it doesn't absolutely say that they'll have to be.

Perhaps other sellers will offer better deals before the end of the year if Lifetime upgrades only apply to Series 3 from TiVo's website. But that's not the best way to make a loyal subscriber feel like a VIP.


----------



## Ziggy86

Do you need a cable card to use an S3?


----------



## cwoody222

megazone said:


> I suspect it wasn't pulled by choice - TiVo probably asked/told him to do it.


I've had stuff pulled (a 20 second Americon Idol clip) myself from YouTube. The message displayed is different.

Plus - do you really think that between 8pm and 4pm PST someone at TiVo was that worried and someone at YouTube was there to react? I believe with copyright violations they at least view the clip before yanking it.

The site said it was removed by the user; therefore I think it was removed by the user.


----------



## cwoody222

Ziggy86 said:


> Do you need a cable card to use an S3?


For OTA, no. For analog cable, no. For anything else, yes.


----------



## megazone

cwoody222 said:


> The site said it was removed by the user; therefore I think it was removed by the user.


I'm sure it was - but I could easily believe TiVo contacted the user and asked him to. As to someone at TiVo being up and noticing - hell yes. I've exchanged email with TiVo folks in the middle of the night. They have night owls too. And it was posted here and on blogs (I posted them on TiVoLovers.com), plenty of ways to notice.


----------



## Jason Hoover

tweekerz said:


> She isnt hot, so this is not a vaild question, IMHO


How do you know the customer service rep was not hot? Am I missing something? Wasn't this refering to a telephone conversation?


----------



## megazone

Ziggy86 said:


> Do you need a cable card to use an S3?


Not for NTSC or ATSC from antenna, or for analog cable.

You need CableCARD for encrypted, digital cable channels.

What is unknown right now is if you need CableCARD for unencrypted digital cable or if the Series3 supports in-the-clear QAM without the cards.


----------



## greg_burns

megazone said:


> I'm sure it was - but I could easily believe TiVo contacted the user and asked him to. As to someone at TiVo being up and noticing - hell yes. I've exchanged email with TiVo folks in the middle of the night. They have night owls too. And it was posted here and on blogs (I posted them on TiVoLovers.com), plenty of ways to notice.


You know those guys at Tivo are sitting back and reading these threads having a ball. They probably knew the moment it was posted the same as us.


----------



## jfh3

mikesay98 said:


> Sorry if it has, but has it been discussed yet whether or not this deal will only be for those who order from TiVo? I get the feeling the commercial/video implies the deal is only for those who order direct from TiVo?


The ad says "When you buy the new Tivo Series 3 HD DMR" not "if you buy it from Tivo"

It does say purchase the box from the vip page and "when the box arrives" call the special phone number and we'll make the transfer right then and there.

That implies you have to get the box from Tivo, but also doesn't preclude buying it retail. It's not like they are transferring the service at the time you buy the box - you have to take specific action (the phone call) to do it.

I, for one, certainly hope that's not requirement. However, it may be moot - if Tivo activates the VIP ordering page before Best Buy starts selling the boxes, I'll order at least one box from Tivo anyway.


----------



## tunnelengineer

Jason Hoover said:


> How do you know the customer service rep was not hot? Am I missing something? Wasn't this refering to a telephone conversation?


Exactly. I was asking if the customer service rep sounded hot. Not that chick on the Tivo ads. She really kinda scares me.


----------



## shady

greg_burns said:


> You know those guys at Tivo are sitting back and reading these threads having a ball. They probably knew the moment it was posted the same as us.


If it really is just a few days to release, I don't think anyone at TiVo is sitting back!!


----------



## jfh3

tunnelengineer said:


> Not that chick on the Tivo ads. She really kinda scares me.


You realize there are a lot of TivoShanan fans here, right?

Don't be surprised if your Series 3 doesn't work the way you expected.

Bad things might happen if you don't show proper respect to Tivo emloyees, including Shanan ...


----------



## johnd7

I know this has been discussed and TIVO hopes it's not the case but I have the feeling this whole Cable Card thing with the S3 is going to be a mess. It is going to suck to buy an $800 unit and then have it sitting waiting 2-3 weeks for the cable guy appointment to bring the CC. Earlier this year I could not get Cox to bring me out a CC and an HD DVR. They refused even when I had it escalated up. They said I could not use both on the same TV, I told them that is fine, I will move the box to a different TV, just bring me the CC, they still refused because I already had an HD DVR. This is not going to go well.


----------



## MichaelK

btwyx said:


> One of the big advantages of the S3 is, for the most part, it does away with quality levels. Only analog inputs, (NTSC OTA or analog cable),.....


I just realized I never thought about it-

will the series 3 do NTSC OTA also- or just ATSC OTA and analog cable?

No reason it couldn't do NTSC OTA I'd guess except for even more complexity in the channels you recieve area...


----------



## cwoody222

Yes, it does NTSC. We've known that since Jan.

http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2006/01/hd_tivo_series_.html


----------



## MichaelK

cwoody222 said:


> Yes, it does NTSC. We've known that since Jan.
> 
> http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2006/01/hd_tivo_series_.html


thanks

I was oblivious- I never thought about it


----------



## Dan203

johnd7 said:


> I know this has been discussed and TIVO hopes it's not the case but I have the feeling this whole Cable Card thing with the S3 is going to be a mess. It is going to suck to buy an $800 unit and then have it sitting waiting 2-3 weeks for the cable guy appointment to bring the CC.


Charter told me that it takes 10 days to get the CableCARDs. So I was thinking about making an appointment today for Monday the 18th. If for some reason the S3 isn't released next week like expected then I'll just cancel.

Dan


----------



## classicX

Dan203 said:


> Charter told me that it takes 10 days to get the CableCARDs. So I was thinking about making an appointment today for Monday the 18th. If for some reason the S3 isn't released next week like expected then I'll just cancel.
> 
> Dan


Less thinking. More doing.

What are you waiting for?


----------



## bubba1972

Dan203, have you heard anything about Charter possibly using SDV? I have Charter in St. Louis and would hate to jump in and get screwed by that.


----------



## OldTownTreadles

:up: This is GREAT!!!! Thanks Tivo. :up:



cjw2001 said:


> Yep, just saw the same thing.
> 
> There were two videos from TiVoShannon announcing the Series 3.
> 
> A couple features mentioned...
> 
> The new TiVo HD is THX certified.
> 
> The new remote is backlit.
> 
> The chasis has extra dampening to keep the box quiet.
> 
> No mention of box price or availability date.
> 
> Now for the big news...
> 
> TiVo is allowing current Series 1 or Series 2 lifetime boxes to have the lifetime service transfered to the new Series 3 for a one time charge of $199. They also throw in an additional 12 months of service on the existing box when you pick this option..
> 
> Box must be purchased by December 31, 2006 and lifetime transfer by January 31, 2007.
> 
> Special hotline to do the transfer 866-424-8486.
> 
> www.tivo.com/vip to buy the box (page is not up yet).


----------



## Jazhuis

cwoody222 said:


> Yes, it does NTSC. We've known that since Jan.


At least until the digital cutover.


----------



## mchief

johnd7 said:


> I know this has been discussed and TIVO hopes it's not the case but I have the feeling this whole Cable Card thing with the S3 is going to be a mess. It is going to suck to buy an $800 unit and then have it sitting waiting 2-3 weeks for the cable guy appointment to bring the CC. Earlier this year I could not get Cox to bring me out a CC and an HD DVR. They refused even when I had it escalated up. They said I could not use both on the same TV, I told them that is fine, I will move the box to a different TV, just bring me the CC, they still refused because I already had an HD DVR. This is not going to go well.


Had the same problem with Comcast Alexandria VA. Finally won the HD DVR/cable card war and, quess what, works like a charm. However, yesterday the cable card died. CSR told me that was because you can't have a CC and HD DVR. Some days it just doesn't play to get up. Tech arrived - inserted new CC and back in business.

Asked him about S3 and 2 CCs - his comment was not good. He said Comcast had nothing buy trouble with CCs and was not well equiped to handle them. Expect problems trying to order 3 CCs.


----------



## tunnelengineer

The cable companies have trouble with them because they don't try hard enough. They don't make much money on the cards like they do with renting the cable boxes.....

I guarantee most places spend the least amt of effort as possible getting them to work. It's sad, but probably the truth. 

I am on my 7th cable card in the last 12 month period. I like cable company visits.........

Also, no disrespect but I do not get worked up over the tivo lady. She is definitely not my cup of tea. To each their own though. "scares me" may be a bit harsh, I guess "don't prefer her type" would be a better term. Although I probably wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating crackers....................


----------



## Dan203

bubba1972 said:


> Dan203, have you heard anything about Charter possibly using SDV? I have Charter in St. Louis and would hate to jump in and get screwed by that.


Nope. According to one of the cable gurus here on the forum they're not even looking at it yet. So we should be safe for at least a few more years.

Dan


----------



## btwyx

tunnelengineer said:


> The cable companies have trouble with them because they don't try hard enough. They don't make much money on the cards like they do with renting the cable boxes.....


I'd be very surprised if cable companies made money renting cable boxes. I thought they were a loss leader needed to sell programming. The money's in the programming not the hardware, in that case they should be eager to provide cable cards because they're cheaper.

However, if the cable cards can't do PPV, which is the most profitable programming to sell, they may have reservations. In which case they should make it possible to do PPV with cable cards, which is, in theory, trivial.


----------



## Dan203

btwyx said:


> However, if the cable cards can't do PPV, which is the most profitable programming to sell, they may have reservations. In which case they should make it possible to do PPV with cable cards, which is, in theory, trivial.


Actually it's far from trival! The CableCARD 2.0 spec's main purpose is to work out the bidirectional communication portion of CableCARD so that services like PPV and VOD are possible via CableCARD devices. They have been fighting over the implimentation of the CC2.0 spec for almost 3 years now and it's still not finalized. The biggest argument is that the cable companies want to use a technology called OCAP for all bidirectional services. OCAP basically allows the cable company to download software onto a 3rd party box and present their own UI for accessing these features. CE manufacturers don't want this because they want to be able to access these feature from their own UI so as not to confuse users and so that they can retain their competitive edge.

Dan


----------



## btwyx

Dan203 said:


> Actually it's far from trival! The CableCARD 2.0 spec's main purpose is to work out the bidirectional communication portion of CableCARD so that services like PPV and VOD are possible via CableCARD devices.


You don't need bi-directional communication to do PPV, you just need an alternative back channel and the imagination to use it. If you think "I need bidirectional comunication to do PPV" they of course its going to be impossible.

However, I do PPV quite a bit without bidirectional comminication. I go look on DirecTV's web site for a PPV. I order it on the website. D* sends a unidirectional command to my TiVo to enable it to receive the PPV. I record the PPV. I'm happy.

There's abolutely no reason, apart from lack of imagination, why the same solution could not be applied to unidirectional cable card. They already authorise the cable card to receive the channels it can receive, why not one more for 90 mins? Its in the cable companies best interest to do such a thing, if they do I'll buy their high margin PPVs. If they don't I won't and I'll make a point to call them about it, calls cost them.

My cable company already has such a system in place for analog PPV, you just have to do it by phone.


----------



## Deacon West

Btwyx, I like the way you think. It is the cable co.s that don't want us thinking out of the box.


----------



## Dan203

btwyx said:


> You don't need bi-directional communication to do PPV, you just need an alternative back channel and the imagination to use it. If you think "I need bidirectional comunication to do PPV" they of course its going to be impossible.
> 
> However, I do PPV quite a bit without bidirectional comminication. I go look on DirecTV's web site for a PPV. I order it on the website. D* sends a unidirectional command to my TiVo to enable it to receive the PPV. I record the PPV. I'm happy.


In my area the only regular PPV channels left are sports channels and adult channels. All movie PPV has been moved to VOD, so bidirectional communication is required.

Dan


----------



## btwyx

Dan203 said:


> In my area the only regular PPV channels left are sports channels and adult channels. All movie PPV has been moved to VOD, so bidirectional communication is required.


There's still no reason, apart from lack of imagination, why the demand (the D in VOD) can't come from a different channel than a back channel on the cable. It could still be ordered on the website/over the phone and the box told where to find it in the data stream.

As I understand it, from a freind who has a VOD system, all VOD is a set of random channels where demanded content is sent. You can snoop on what is being currently VODed. If a dumb cable bos can see VOD content someone else has ordered, why can't a TiVo record something you have ordered?


----------



## HDTiVo

btwyx said:


> apart from lack of imagination,


The world as we know it would collapse without lack of imagination.


----------



## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> Actually it's far from trival! The CableCARD 2.0 spec's main purpose is to work out the bidirectional communication portion of CableCARD so that services like PPV and VOD are possible via CableCARD devices. They have been fighting over the implimentation of the CC2.0 spec for almost 3 years now and it's still not finalized. The biggest argument is that the cable companies want to use a technology called OCAP for all bidirectional services. OCAP basically allows the cable company to download software onto a 3rd party box and present their own UI for accessing these features. CE manufacturers don't want this because they want to be able to access these feature from their own UI so as not to confuse users and so that they can retain their competitive edge.
> 
> Dan


search for dt_Dc's posts. there are boxes TODAY that have cablecard for access control but the proprietary 2-way crap to handle PPV/VOD/SDV.

So they can keep the status quo but buy boxes with 1 way cablecards for access control.

Assuming they dont get the FCC to push back the deadline, it seems that's the way they will go.


----------



## MichaelK

here's dt_Dc's explanation...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4346620&&#post4346620


----------



## morac

The more I think about this, the more I wonder how good this deal actually is. On one hand, you plop down $1000 for a S3 and that's it, you have a lifetime S3. On the other hand, if you wait a year, the S3 will probably be available for anywhere from $500 to $600. If you aren't going to rush out and get the S3 right now, you can save around $400 to $500 by waiting till the price drops. At $6.95, barring the money you'd earn from interest or investing, you'd break even in about 5 or 6 years. The S3 might be obsolete by then. 

Also if you keep the S2 or S1 you will have to start paying service fees on it in a year, so you'll never recoup your costs unless you cancel the subscription after a year. 

If you were going to get a S3 now it is worth it, otherwise not so much.

People doing this because they assume that a lifetime S3 will sell for more later might be in for a shock in the case that the cable industry abandons the cablecard standard completely.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

morac said:


> The more I think about this, the more I wonder how good this deal actually is. On one hand, you plop down $1000 for a S3 and that's it, you have a lifetime S3. On the other hand, if you wait a year, the S3 will probably be available for anywhere from $500 to $600. If you aren't going to rush out and get the S3 right now, you can save around $400 to $500 by waiting till the price drops. At $6.95, barring the money you'd earn from interest or investing, you'd break even in about 5 or 6 years. The S3 might be obsolete by then.
> 
> Also if you keep the S2 or S1 you will have to start paying service fees on it in a year, so you'll never recoup your costs unless you cancel the subscription after a year.
> 
> If you were going to get a S3 now it is worth it, otherwise not so much.
> 
> People doing this because they assume that a lifetime S3 will sell for more later might be in for a shock in the case that the cable industry abandons the cablecard standard completely.


Does anyone know if there is such a thing that a chip set/firmware that may be in the Series 3 is software upgradable once CableCard 2.0 is final?


----------



## eisenb11

MediaLivingRoom,

CC2.0 most likely requires different hardware. 

I doubt this version of the S3 will ever be CC2.0 compliant.


----------



## smak

morac said:


> The more I think about this, the more I wonder how good this deal actually is. On one hand, you plop down $1000 for a S3 and that's it, you have a lifetime S3. On the other hand, if you wait a year, the S3 will probably be available for anywhere from $500 to $600. If you aren't going to rush out and get the S3 right now, you can save around $400 to $500 by waiting till the price drops. At $6.95, barring the money you'd earn from interest or investing, you'd break even in about 5 or 6 years. The S3 might be obsolete by then.


I'd say a ton of people only have 1 tivo.

So, if they want a S3, and don't need to keep their S2 running, they'd still be paying the $12.95 per month.

Not to mention the fact, that their series 2 will have 1 year of service, which even if you value it really low like $4 a month, is still another $50

So selling your series 2 with 1 year service, even for something like $100 covers most of it. And then you're saving the $12.95 too.

It's a good deal in some situations, and maybe not in others.

-smak-


----------



## eisenb11

morac, 

I don't think it'll be very easy for the cable industry to abandon CC - it is, afterall mandated by the FCC.

How TWC has gotten so far in some areas with SDV is beyond me. I'm sure that if SDV starts becoming enough of a threat, companies like Tivo and Microsoft will take them to court in order to enforce the FCC ruling.

The death of CC is a danger to Tivo with the S3 and is a huge danger to Microsoft with their upcoming CC-compatible Vista Media Center PCs. It is not in a company's best interests to make Microsoft mad!


----------



## maelman

I am thinking of purchasing a previously owned Tivo that has a lifetime subscription. 

Q1. If it has a broken modem and cannot connect to tivo service is there any reason that i would not be able to transfer the lifetime service that is tied to that box? I am thinking that all i would need is the box id on the back. Is this right?

Q2. Do they care if the service is in my name? Will i need to transfer the Tivo box ownership over in my name? 

q3. I am also assuming it doesnt matter what kind of box, like if its a DirectTivo box with lifetime.

Sorry for so many newbie questions in one post... just trying to make sure this works before i plunk down some money to purchase the box.

Thanks!


----------



## eisenb11

No one really knows the answers to these questions with a good amount of accuracy. The terms outlined in the announcement are pretty vague.

Rumor has it that DirectTivo units don't count, however... but who really knows....?


----------



## Gregor

maelman said:


> I am thinking of purchasing a previously owned Tivo that has a lifetime subscription.
> 
> Q1. If it has a broken modem and cannot connect to tivo service is there any reason that i would not be able to transfer the lifetime service that is tied to that box? I am thinking that all i would need is the box id on the back. Is this right?
> 
> Q2. Do they care if the service is in my name? Will i need to transfer the Tivo box ownership over in my name?
> 
> q3. I am also assuming it doesnt matter what kind of box, like if its a DirectTivo box with lifetime.
> 
> Sorry for so many newbie questions in one post... just trying to make sure this works before i plunk down some money to purchase the box.
> 
> Thanks!


1) Not sure if they take the box off the list if it hasn't dialed in for awhile.
2) I don't think they care
3) I doubt DTV boxes will be included in this offer, it seems it is Series 1 or Series 2.


----------



## eisenb11

They do seem to take things off the list at some point, but I think it can get back on by dialing back in.

For example, I just bought a used unit. Called before I bought it to verify the serial and all was good.

Was thinking about buying a second unit. The second one wasn't used for a number of years. When I called about its serial, it was not in there DB.

I hope the S3 is released before my unit it off the list. I cancelled my phone service (cells are so cheap these days) so I have no way of connecting with the unit any more...


----------



## 1283

A2: The unit should be transferred to your name first. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

A3: Extremely unlikely. Most DirecTiVos with "lifetime" are hacked units anyway.


----------



## megazone

maelman said:


> Q1. If it has a broken modem and cannot connect to tivo service is there any reason that i would not be able to transfer the lifetime service that is tied to that box? I am thinking that all i would need is the box id on the back. Is this right?


Most likely. While lifetime units need to call in every 6 months to sustain MSD on other boxes on the same account, I've never heard of lifetime 'expiring' for not calling in.



> Q2. Do they care if the service is in my name? Will i need to transfer the Tivo box ownership over in my name?


I *hope* they care! Otherwise you'd be able to 'steal' lifetime from someone if you learned their TSN. Better safe than sorry - transfer it to your name.



> q3. I am also assuming it doesnt matter what kind of box, like if its a DirectTivo box with lifetime.


Yes, it does matter! There is no such thing as a DirecTiVo box with lifetime! DirecTiVo lifetime accounts are PER DIRECTV ACCOUNT, and NOT tied to a box. It is completely different from the way standalone lifetime works. DirecTV lifetime CANNOT be transferred to a new owner. Years ago DirecTV converted all of their 'lifetime' users into *account* lifetime, not *product* lifetime. So you cannot acquire lifetime by buying a DirecTV box.

Any DirecTV *box* which has supposed lifetime is certainly hacked for theft of service since there is no legitimate way to do this. And that would never entitle you to a transfer.


----------



## Willin

TiVo Troll said:


> On Teleworld the
> 
> 
> 
> played first directly followed by the
> 
> 
> 
> .


These clips stored on the tivo are named eigershow and eigeroffer. Does anybody know what eiger means? The only place I've found a reference to it is here


----------



## btwyx

Willin said:


> Does anybody know what eiger means?


It means ogre in German and is the name of a mountain in the Alps.


----------



## 1283

Must be the internal project name.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

c3 said:


> Must be the internal project name.


Or somebody in TiVo misspelled _eager_


----------



## TechDreamer

The cable companies are going to do a HORRIBLE job handling Tivo and CableCards. I'm personally looking forward to watching the bloodshed. I don't think the Cable companies are ready for the wrath of a pissed off Tivo army.


----------



## bicker

I don't think the cable companies would even notice the wrath of a pissed off TiVo army. There are so few TiVo owners that would care enough about the intricacies of CableCard, as to barely register. I suspect most TiVo owners who encounter problems with CableCard due to loss of VOD and due to SDV will buy the cable company's argument that the problem (really: limitation) is with the TiVo, and even knowing all the details as I do, I'm not sure I disagree with them.


----------



## TechDreamer

All limitations of CableCard are the fault of the Cable Companies. The Cable monopolies have drug their feet on this stuff for years. I have critisized Tivo on a lot of things, but none of the problems with CableCard are their fault.


----------



## jfh3

bicker said:


> I don't think the cable companies would even notice the wrath of a pissed off TiVo army. There are so few TiVo owners that would care enough about the intricacies of CableCard, as to barely register. I suspect most TiVo owners who encounter problems with CableCard due to loss of VOD and due to SDV will buy the cable company's argument that the problem (really: limitation) is with the TiVo, and even knowing all the details as I do, I'm not sure I disagree with them.


Of course, if most drink the cable company KoolAid like you apparently have and ignore the fact that it's NOT Tivo that's responsible for the CableCard fiasco, there won't be an army in the first place.


----------



## JohnBrowning

I think all the CableCARD FUD is ridiculous! I expect to move my card from my TV to my S3 with no issues. When connecting with Verizon, they wanted NONE of the info out of the TV. They knew what card I had and remotely initialized it. Done. No more issues. I would not be surprised if the card continues to work without VZ intervention when I move it to the S3. If not, one phone call can get it re-init'd. No big deal!


----------



## etsolow

I, on the other hand, watched my Charter tech scroll thru TV menus, make phone calls, pull out his hair, make excuses, drive back to the office, wait two days, before the CableCARD in my TV would work. YMMV!


----------



## MichaelK

verizon= good
Charter= bad


----------



## bicker

TechDreamer said:


> All limitations of CableCard are the fault of the Cable Companies.


Yet they're TiVo's problem. Amazing how fault has little to do with impact.


----------



## bicker

jfh3 said:


> Of course, if most drink the cable company KoolAid like you apparently have and ignore the fact that it's NOT Tivo that's responsible for the CableCard fiasco, there won't be an army in the first place.


Wow. How incredibly childish and rude.

Get a grip. Even if there was fault to be assessed in this case (there isn't) it would be utterly irrelevant. Fault is never relevant in business. Legal is legal. Profitable is profitable. That's all that matters in business.


----------



## jfh3

bicker said:


> Even if there was fault to be assessed in this case (there isn't) it would be utterly irrelevant.


Chill. You're the one that brought it up - can't you take a joke?

You essentially said that you'd agree with the cable companies FUD that's it "Tivo's fault" even though you know better. That's pretty mind boggling to me.


----------



## bicker

Jokes are followed by smileys.

I didn't say I agree or disagree with cable companies or TiVO. I'm talking about *reality*. Reality is that the number of TiVo owners who actually would translate these limitations into action against cable companies is insignficant. TiVo doesn't control the world -- it must live within the environment it finds itself, and that means TiVo is completed dependent on the available means of receiving television programming. TiVo has to be compatible with the distribution mechanisms, not the other way around. The tail doesn't wag the dog.


----------



## jfh3

bicker said:


> TiVo has to be compatible with the distribution mechanisms, not the other way around.


That's one of the reasons Tivo is partnering with the cable companies for software distribution. Without standards that the cable companies refuse to implement, Tivo can never (reasonably) have stand alone hardware that fully supports reality.

With the Series 3, Tivo will have a product that's compatable with the only open-standard distribution mechanism the CE manufacturers and the MSOs have been able to agree on, with the MSOs kicking and screaming the whole way, doing everything they can to defer, derail or destroy the FCC mandate.

Let me see ... Tivo plays by the rules. The MSOs thumb their nose at the rules. And not only is it Tivo's fault they don't play fair, but they have to enforce the rules?

Give me a break.


----------



## eisenb11

bicker said:


> Jokes are followed by smileys.
> 
> I didn't say I agree or disagree with cable companies or TiVO. I'm talking about *reality*. *Reality is that the number of TiVo owners who actually would translate these limitations into action against cable companies is insignficant*. TiVo doesn't control the world -- it must live within the environment it finds itself, and that means TiVo is completed dependent on the available means of receiving television programming. TiVo has to be compatible with the distribution mechanisms, not the other way around. The tail doesn't wag the dog.


Wow, are you a CableLabs employee posting incognito?

You really need to do your homework before making statements like these. There are a number of big problems with your argument.

1. CableCard support is mandated by the FCC.

I don't think the cable operators are above the control of the FCC.

2. You're sadly mistaken if you think Tivo is the only one affected by the CableCard fiasco.

You're correct in that Tivo is a small player, but they're not the only player.

First we have the large electronics manufacturers - those being Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, and many many more. They're affected by this because they design CableCard support into their product line. Many people actually don't like dealing with STBs and the option to use a CableCard is feature that helps move units.

Those companies not big enough for you? How about Microsoft? Microsoft has a lot vested in CableCards. They're working on releasing CableCard compatible computers that will run Windows Vista Media Center. HD is the key selling feature of Viste MC, Microsoft isn't going to quietly watch their potential market get decimated by people who don't want to follow the rules.

Not a Microsoft fan? Rumor has it that Apple is working on a media center of some sorts (it's just a rumor, but with Apple these tend to come true). It would be silly to think they would not be interested in CableCard and the HD marketplace - especially considering that Microsoft is going that route. Steve Jobs won't hesitate to whip out his Reality Distortion Field (tm)!

The CableCard fiasco is a big deal and it affects a lot more people and companies than you give credit for... and yes, it is as simple as "who's not following the rules". The FCC set the rules and, as usual, cable providers are dragging their feet and ignoring them.

Fault. Yes there is fault. It's the cable operators' fault.

Until the FCC changes their rules, it's going to be staying this way.


----------



## TechDreamer

I certainly hope the tail wags the dog in this case.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

bicker said:


> Wow. How incredibly childish and rude.
> 
> Get a grip. Even if there was fault to be assessed in this case (there isn't) it would be utterly irrelevant. Fault is never relevant in business. Legal is legal. Profitable is profitable. That's all that matters in business.


You forgot ethics ...


----------



## DCIFRTHS

eisenb11 said:


> Wow, are you a CableLabs employee posting incognito? ...


If I remember correctly, the claim from the poster you ask this question of does not work in the cable industry  . I have personally found it more satisfying to ignore most of his/her posts than to try and discuss the situation. YMMV


----------



## bicker

jfh3 said:


> That's one of the reasons Tivo is partnering with the cable companies for software distribution. Without standards that the cable companies refuse to implement, Tivo can never (reasonably) have stand alone hardware that fully supports reality.


Absolutely, positively. That's the main point folks need to come to understand, with respect to the S3.



> Give me a break.


Why? I don't get a break. Why should you (or TiVo) get one? We *all *are continually faced with difficult propositions. If it was easy, everyone would be making billions of dollars in profit. TiVo is unquestionably between a rock and a hard place, with no effective means of offering a stand-alone product that, as you said, "fully supports reality". Folks considering buying the S3 should know that, up-front.


----------



## bicker

eisenb11 said:


> Wow, are you a CableLabs employee posting incognito?


Typically, when folks say such things, it is because they cannot otherwise defend their positions.



> Fault. Yes there is fault. It's the cable operators' fault.


No, it's your fault, and my fault. We put the people in office who support the kind of business environment that makes rules that have no staying power -- no relevance to accomplishing what they were ostensibly created to accomplish. We foster the system; we take the blame. Stop trying to foist that blame off on to the cable companies which are following the laws that our representatives appointees created.

Personal accountability. Each and every one of us voters.


----------



## bicker

DCIFRTHS said:


> You forgot ethics ...


Ethics dictate that corporations comply with the law (not what you personally wish was the law) and make all business decisions in the best interests of long-term shareholder value. The manner in which ethics are applied to corporations are through regulation and the free market.


----------



## HTH

I transfered lifetime from Series1s to Series2s already (two of them). Then it was free, and I ended up with lifetime on two units that required service to operate and the option to go without service later on two units that didn't require service. (I resubbed them monthly and get the multi-TiVo discount.)

I don't think I'll be paying the same amount I paid for lifetime to lose lifetime on the Series2 units and move them to the Series3, even with transferring the 1-year requirement contract for the new Series3 units back to the Series2. I personally need a sweeter deal, especially to convince me I need more than the 7 TiVos I have.


----------



## Bierboy

bicker said:


> Jokes are followed by smileys...


Hmmm, then how come we don't see a smiley after your user name? (NOTE -- smileys to follow...)


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Man you guys seriously need to get your time occupied with a Series 3 in your house


----------



## AJRitz

bicker said:


> Jokes are followed by smileys.
> 
> I didn't say I agree or disagree with cable companies or TiVO. I'm talking about *reality*. Reality is that the number of TiVo owners who actually would translate these limitations into action against cable companies is insignficant. TiVo doesn't control the world -- it must live within the environment it finds itself, and that means TiVo is completed dependent on the available means of receiving television programming. TiVo has to be compatible with the distribution mechanisms, not the other way around. The tail doesn't wag the dog.


You have your tail and dog confused.

There is a government agency, the FCC, that has direct jursidiction over the content providers. That agency has mandated compliance with the Cable Card standard to the content providers.

TiVo is a consumer electronics device. According to the FCC, the cable companies have an affirmative LEGAL obligation to provide Cable Cards, which will decrypt the companies' content when the Cards are installed in ANY standards-compliant consumer electronics device.

Dog = FCC
Tail = Conent providers
Screen Door = Tivo/Consumer electronics devices. TiVo is an innocent bystander to the cable companies obstinate refusal to comply with the LEGAL mandates of the FCC. the content providers are, however, going to find themselves slammed in the screen door if they don't do what the FCC has already ordered them to do.

As for VOD/two-way communications, all I can say is, "who cares." I have TiVo partially because I've never found VOD to be particularly compelling. It's just another distribution method that puts me at the mercy of the content provider. I much prefer the "pull" model to the "push" model. TiVo pulls what I want to watch, and then I watch it when I want to. No need for VOD/PPV.

I guess if I was a big porn consumer I might feel differently, but that was never what had me interested in an S3 TiVo.


----------



## jfh3

bicker said:


> No, it's your fault, and my fault.


Glad we got that cleared up - so it's NOT Tivo's fault that they don't support the cable company's distribution mechanisms, as you originally indicated, but YOUR fault. 

(Note that I didn't forget the smiley this time ...)


----------



## jfh3

AJRitz said:


> You have your tail and dog confused.


Great post! :up:


----------



## eisenb11

bicker said:


> Typically, when folks say such things, it is because they cannot otherwise defend their positions.
> 
> No, it's your fault, and my fault. We put the people in office who support the kind of business environment that makes rules that have no staying power -- no relevance to accomplishing what they were ostensibly created to accomplish. We foster the system; we take the blame. Stop trying to foist that blame off on to the cable companies which are *following the laws * that our representatives appointees created.
> 
> Personal accountability. Each and every one of us voters.


Well, it's pretty hard to defend a position when all you seem to be interested in is the first line and the last line of a post.

I covered all your points in there... how they're wrong, that is.

On top of that, look at what I put in bold from your post.

It is obvious you didn't read my post because *they are not following the law*. The FCC is the law and the cable companies are not doing what the FCC says.

I will partly agree that is is your fault, though. It's hard to get support to fix problems when people cover their eyes and ears and yell "la la la la la!" to hide the truth.


----------



## dolcevita

bpurcell said:


> Wow, I wake up this morning thinking nothing much is happening, and then I see THIS!
> 
> Sucks for me, since I sold my lifetime 540 just last week on Ebay! If I'd known they would do this, I definitely would've held off.


I was planning to do the same since I added a DT this year and also have a lifetimed Humax. A big crunch at work that has had me "burning the midnight oil" meant I didn;t have time -- really glad now!


----------



## MichaelK

AJRitz said:


> You have your tail and dog confused.
> 
> There is a government agency, the FCC, that has direct jursidiction over the content providers. That agency has mandated compliance with the Cable Card standard to the content providers.
> 
> TiVo is a consumer electronics device. According to the FCC, the cable companies have an affirmative LEGAL obligation to provide Cable Cards, which will decrypt the companies' content when the Cards are installed in ANY standards-compliant consumer electronics device.
> 
> Dog = FCC
> Tail = Conent providers
> Screen Door = Tivo/Consumer electronics devices. TiVo is an innocent bystander to the cable companies obstinate refusal to comply with the LEGAL mandates of the FCC. the content providers are, however, going to find themselves slammed in the screen door if they don't do what the FCC has already ordered them to do.
> ...


I think there is a strong logical argument that the cable industry wags the FCC.

First off the law that required the FCC to get cable to do cablecards is form 1996. It's been TEN years and still cablecards are far from a normal thing.

THe law never stipulated cablecards- merely the law said the fcc should figure out how to make an open system. Who did the fcc choose to creat such a system? IEEE, ISO, a group of all the involved players, any other inpartial thrid party? Nope they allowed cablelabs a cable industry organization to creat standards.

THe original FCC deadline for all cable company boxes to use cablecards was 2005 and TWICE was pushed back by cable. The current date is June/July 2007 and guess what- cable already has the paperwork in to ask for 2009. We'll find out in the next 3 months or so what the answer to that is.

The fcc stands by as the 2-way standard which has become clear is required for the future wallows in a fight between the obvously self motivated CableLabs group and the consumer product manufactrueres (ignoring porn, if your provider chooses to use switched video then 2-way will be required- at least 1 of the major providers plan to go to SV and the others have not yet said one way or the otehr that I am aware).

So, it's tough to look at the histroy of the situation and see the FCC really doing much for the consumer or agains cable in reagards to this whole mess...


----------



## bicker

eisenb11 said:


> It is obvious you didn't read my post because *they are not following the law*.


They are following the law. (I did read your message. I simply believe you're wrong.) You don't like the way they're following the law. That's tough. Get over it.



> I will partly agree that is is your fault, though.


How childish. My point was clearly that we all bear responsibility for the laws of our land, and the way in which our halls of government administer them. Are you so *craven *that you cannot accept your part of this shared responsibility? Such an attitude disgusts me.


----------



## tgewin

As everyone can tell from my post count over the years that I've been a member here, I'm hardly one to jump into threads like this, but...

It's a really good thing that this thread is staying on topic and hasn't devolved into a pissing contest about cablecards. There are at least a dozen other threads like that, and I was getting really tired of those threads.


----------



## eisenb11

bicker said:


> They are following the law. (I did read your message. I simply believe you're wrong.) You don't like the way they're following the law. That's tough. Get over it.
> 
> How childish. My point was clearly that we all bear responsibility for the laws of our land, and the way in which our halls of government administer them. Are you so *craven *that you cannot accept your part of this shared responsibility? Such an attitude disgusts me.


While I agree that we do have an indirect effect on laws through the election of representatives, I disgree with what you're getting at.

I, personally, believe that most political clout is held by businesses through lobbyists and legal action. I also realistic in understanding that most matters of this sort are solved through legal means.

I believe that this will all be sorted out... by the large corporations.

The cable co's are not following the law, what we need it a large organization to take the battle to court.

As I mentioned earlier, there are some big companies that stand a lot to lose by this... I don't think the cable co's will be getting away with this in the long run...


----------



## steve614

tgewin said:


> As everyone can tell from my post count over the years that I've been a member here, I'm hardly one to jump into threads like this, but...
> 
> It's a really good thing that this thread is staying on topic and hasn't devolved into a pissing contest about cablecards. There are at least a dozen other threads like that, and I was getting really tired of those threads.


Ditto...

Having said that, everything about this offer tempts me into getting an S3 exept one that didn't get mentioned often ( I read this entire thread, honest! ).

 Will I be able to transfer shows over to my PC as easily as I can with my S2? I need to know! :hoping:


----------



## MichaelK

*BIG GIANT CABLECARD RANT- skip post if you want to avoid it.*



eisenb11 said:


> While I agree that we do have an indirect effect on laws through the election of representatives, I disgree with what you're getting at.
> 
> I, personally, believe that most political clout is held by businesses through lobbyists and legal action. I also realistic in understanding that most matters of this sort are solved through legal means.
> 
> I believe that this will all be sorted out... by the large corporations.
> 
> The cable co's are not following the law, what we need it a large organization to take the battle to court.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, there are some big companies that stand a lot to lose by this... I don't think the cable co's will be getting away with this in the long run...


here's the problem- the LAW as passed by congress directs the FCC to create regulations to ensure that 3rd party tuners are widely availible for people to buy at retail. By some measures there are less cablecard devices in retail now than in the past and it's all the FCC's fault.

The FCC, in my humble opinion, is not carrying out the law in anything even closely resembling a timely or postive manner. The FCC has repeatedly shirked it's duty to get the cable companies comply with the intent of the law.

The cable companies basially ARE following the regulations that are in effect at the current time, the FCC says the bigger systems must provide one way single stream cable cards to anyone that asks and that they should charge in the ballpark of under 2 bucks to do it. Generally if you take out their incompetence then cable is in compiance with the current regulation.

The fact that it is 10 years after the law passed and thats all the fcc has bothered to enforce buy regulation is a good part of the problem.

It's still not a certainty that the twice pushed back date in mid 2007 is actually the final deadline for cable to deploy cablecards in their own devices.

There is no regulation at all from the FCC that I am aware of that mandates 2-way cablecards at ANY time in the future. Without that, cablecard is of limited use, so the device manufacturers wont be in a rush to produce products and it will be difficult to find cablecard devices at retail. Comcast sets records on a regular baseis for VOD- what good are consumer devices that cant get VOD in the long term. What good ar econsumer devices that cant get switched video in the future when Time warner at least plans to use that? Take out time warner/ directv/ dish and cablecard tuners are only worthwhile to like half (give or take 10%) of the TV households. If other cable companies move to switched video even less of the country has a use for one way cablecard- subtract people who care for vod or ppv and the number of people that could use cablecard 1-way devices is a smaller fraction of the households with TV's.

unless sony, panasonic, and the other big guns decide to sue the fcc for not enforcing the law as they should, then cablecard may not be widely availible in retail for much longer...


----------



## jeffrypennock

MichaelK said:


> The FCC, in my humble opinion, is not carrying out the law in anything even closely resembling a timely or postive manner.
> Unless sony, panasonic, and the other big guns decide to sue the fcc for not enforcing the law as they should, then cablecard may not be widely availible in retail for much longer...


I agree with what you said (including statements not quoted above). However, we're not dependant on Sony or panasonic to "sue" the FCC. TiVo can appeal to FCC to better enforce the law and can request action be taken against noncompliant cable companies. If the FCC shirks their responsibility to the extent that they're violating regulations and policy, then that sounds like just the sort of thing that a person or company could request a hearing before an Administrative Law Judge for.


----------



## HDTiVo

Yeah, right, SDV is not legal.


----------



## eisenb11

MichaelK,

I think we're on the same page.

Just for clarification, I'm referring to CableCard 1.0 devices (not CableCard 2.0).

While I'd love to see CC 2.0 support, the current intent of the FCC mandate involves CC 1.0.

As I see it, VOD, PPV, etc are value-added services who won't be supported until CC 2.0. That's ok in my book as long as long as the damage is limited to these services. When CC 2.0 is released we may regain these value-added services.

My fear is with the potential switch to SDV. With no released CC 2.0 spec, SDV will result in the opposite direction where we risk losing what limited things we can do now with CC 1.0 - any channel added or moved to a SDV line up becomes a bi-directional channel and, hence, worthless with CC 1.0 devices.

The net result of CC 1.0 is a loss in ground for the CableCard using consumer - not a gain and not even breaking even ground.

This, IMHO, is against the intent of the FCC mandate where the general purpose is more freedom for the consumer.

This area is ripe for someone to step in and begin the fight... be it Tivo, Microsoft, Sony, whomever.

Honestly, I don't think Sony will join this fight because they have a vested interest in the STB market-place. 

Tivo may, but I think it is questionable because DVR companies are at the mercy of the media distribution companies who love challenging various DVR aspecs in the court room (whether or not they win they can waste a lot of time and money). I don't think Tivo wants to make them mad.

If I were a betting man, I'd almost place my money on Microsoft. They've got the power, the resources, and a vested interest in CableCard. Now if only they can ever get Vista done and released so the cable companies can become a threat to Vista Media Center...


----------



## morac

MichaelK said:


> *There is no regulation at all from the FCC that I am aware of that mandates 2-way cablecards at ANY time in the future. Without that, cablecard is of limited use, so the device manufacturers wont be in a rush to produce products and it will be difficult to find cablecard devices at retail. *


* 
Most of the big name brands have opted to cut back or eliminate the number of TV models this year that are cablecard compatible. They don't see that it's worth it to add CC support to their TVs when most people who would use a CC would also end up getting a box for VOD. It's like a HDTV monitor versus one with a built in tuner, most people opt for the cheaper version without the built in tuner.

Of course the S3 TiVo is different. It can't work with cable without a CC unless you opt to go all analog, but then why buy a S3. Analog cable is a dying breed anyway. In other words TiVo has a lot more to lose than TV manufacturers.*


----------



## jeffrypennock

morac said:


> In other words TiVo has a lot more to lose than TV manufacturers.


I think that's why they'll see to it that they don't loose while most other forces in the market (users, manufacturers) have been pretty passive.


----------



## eisenb11

I think user passivity will change once Windows Vista comes out (and if Apple releases a media center). I doubt Tivo/Tivo users are enough of a force in themselves.

Morac has a good point about what CableCard means to the TV companies.

As far as the electronics manufacters and most users are concerned all a CableCard does is essentially remove the need for 1 more remote control sitting on the coffee table and another box on the shelf. 

I guess if you're not doing a DVR, CableCard really isn't a big deal.

So I guess this really will fall into the realm of the likes of Tivo, MS, and maybe Apple to take care for us.

No idea where ReplayTV stands these days. They're making analog DVR software from last I heard... no clue if they intent to get into the digital realm in the future...


----------



## DCIFRTHS

morac said:


> Most of the big name brands have opted to cut back or eliminate the number of TV models this year that are cablecard compatible. ...


Where did you find this data? Do you have a chart, link, manufacturer's statements or any comprehensive data that you compiled?


----------



## jeffrypennock

eisenb11 said:


> I doubt Tivo/Tivo users are enough of a force in themselves.


You don't have to collect a certain number of signatures or something like that. In a case like this, you don't even have to convince 12 jurors. You just have to convince one judge that the FCC/Cable companies aren't enforcing/following the law.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

eisenb11 said:


> ... I guess if you're not doing a DVR, CableCard really isn't a big deal.
> 
> So I guess this really will fall into the realm of the likes of Tivo, MS, and maybe Apple to take care for us. ...


I won't consider spending my money, on the next TV I purchase, if it doesn't have a CableCARD slot.


----------



## ingenue007

Hehe, I just picked up a used Sony Series 1 with lifetime for 200 dollars. I already have a series 1 w/lifetime (got it for 130 dollars). I think I'm gonna hold onto these two until the promotion for transfer is officially released and then sell on ebay. I predict *any* unit with lifetime will be selling for at least 500+. That would nicely offset the cost of buying a new series 3. 

Oh I called Tivo to find out when my Tivo's were activated and asked thme about this new promotion. They said it is definately valid but the CSR didn't know when it would go live officially. I asked him if I could buy a Tivo at the store like best buy and call them to transfer for 199. He said yeah. I aske him if rebates would be valid if there were rebates. He said that he thinks the rebates would be void due to the transfer. So there you go. I don't trust CSRs very much....half the time they tell me wrong things. Hopefully we can buy instore, take advantage of any instant rebates or those only requiring UPCs, and then transfer.


----------



## drew2k

DCIFRTHS said:


> morac said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the big name brands have opted to cut back or eliminate the number of TV models this year that are cablecard compatible. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you find this data? Do you have a chart, link, manufacturer's statements or any comprehensive data that you compiled?
Click to expand...

I've read several articles over the last several months that have included passages about CE manufacturers scaling back on inclusion of CableCard in their product lines. Some of the reasons cited included the low consumer rate of CableCard usage, the general lack of support from the cable industry, and the manufacturers' desire to lower the manufacturing costs of TVs by leaving CableCard out.


----------



## MickeS

morac said:


> They don't see that it's worth it to add CC support to their TVs when most people who would use a CC would also end up getting a box for VOD.


Is VOD really that big a draw for the individual consumers? I think I've ordered VOD twice in 8 years... and that was over the phone.


----------



## aaronwt

With the new On Demand you have hundreds of movies to choice from. My parents, one year ago said they would never use ON Demand, that it was a waste. Now they can't watch TV without it. You can watch some of the network shows you missed plus you can chose from hundreds of free movies and even many pay movies. They don't have a DVR so they end up using the On Demand alot now. Since it's streaming from a server you can still pause, Fast forward, rewind, just like a DVR but with a tiny box since it doesn't need all the extra equipment a DVR needs. I could see how I might use On Demand, but only HD, but it isn't necessary for me.


----------



## eisenb11

jeffrypennock said:


> You don't have to collect a certain number of signatures or something like that. In a case like this, you don't even have to convince 12 jurors. You just have to convince one judge that the FCC/Cable companies aren't enforcing/following the law.


I'm aware of that, but convincing that one judge won't be cheap, hence why I put it out of the range of the consumers.

Like any corporate battle, you're going to have a long drawn out battle. Then if you win, there's a good chance of an appeal... rinse and repeat a few rounds then you get your conclusion.

Unless you're uber rich and with plenty of time on your hands, I think this is out of the realm of us "mortals"


----------



## eisenb11

ingenue007 said:


> Hehe, I just picked up a used Sony Series 1 with lifetime for 200 dollars. I already have a series 1 w/lifetime (got it for 130 dollars) ... I predict *any* unit with lifetime will be selling for at least 500+. ...


I'm not so sure of that. Remember that you still have to dump in another $199 in order to do the transfer.

So $500+ w $199 = $699+

If you buy service in 3 year chunks normally (best deal) you're talking a minimum of $699/$10.25 = 68 months = 5.7 years in order to break even.

If you're on a multi-unit plan you're talking $699/$6.99 = 96.8 months = 8 years in order to break even.

I'm guessing that the actual value of a S1/Lifetime at around $250-$300. Take that and add $199 and the numbers look a little nicer.

Paying any more is insane... but then again... I've seen crazier on ebay! 

Hehe, I picked up a Sony S1 w Lifetime for $40 last week


----------



## bicker

eisenb11 said:


> I, personally, believe that most political clout is held by businesses through lobbyists and legal action.


A system which we permit to continue. Businesses cannot vote.



MichaelK said:


> The cable companies basially ARE following the regulations that are in effect at the current time, the FCC says the bigger systems must provide one way single stream cable cards to anyone that asks and that they should charge in the ballpark of under 2 bucks to do it.


Precisely. Completely legal. And a reflection of what we-the-people would have them do.



morac said:


> Most of the big name brands have opted to cut back or eliminate the number of TV models this year that are cablecard compatible.


My brand-new Samsung HDTV doesn't support CableCard, even though last year's model of my set did.


> Of course the S3 TiVo is different. It can't work with cable without a CC unless you opt to go all analog, but then why buy a S3.


Again, precisely. That's the whole crux of the issue. TiVo stepped in mud, here, by not designing the S3 to support STBs. CableCard purity is worthless if being beholden to CableCard means you end up with an $800 paper weight.


----------



## jeffrypennock

eisenb11 said:


> I'm not so sure of that. Remember that you still have to dump in another $199 in order to do the transfer.
> 
> So $500+ w $199 = $699+
> 
> If you buy service in 3 year chunks normally (best deal) you're talking a minimum of $699/$10.25 = 68 months = 5.7 years in order to break even.
> 
> If you're on a multi-unit plan you're talking $699/$6.99 = 96.8 months = 8 years in order to break even.
> 
> I'm guessing that the actual value of a S1/Lifetime at around $250-$300. Take that and add $199 and the numbers look a little nicer.
> 
> Paying any more is insane... but then again... I've seen crazier on ebay!
> 
> Hehe, I picked up a Sony S1 w Lifetime for $40 last week


I would encourage you to read the Administrative Law Act. There's nothing drawn out or expensive about the due process hearings there.


----------



## sommerfeld

jeffrypennock said:


> You just have to convince one judge that the FCC/Cable companies aren't enforcing/following the law.


No, that only gets you a win during round one. The stakes are high enough that the case would likely be appealed (just as it's being appealed in Tivo vs Echostar), and that gives several more rounds:

- you have to convince 2 of 3 judges (circuit court)
- a majority of the whole circuit (if they agree to hear "en banc")
and then, if the losing side convices the supreme court that the case is interesting:
- 5 of 9 supreme court justices.

This will all take years, during which time any lower-court judgements will likely be stayed pending appeal.


----------



## jeffrypennock

sommerfeld said:


> No, that only gets you a win during round one. The stakes are high enough that the case would likely be appealed (just as it's being appealed in Tivo vs Echostar), and that gives several more rounds:
> 
> - you have to convince 2 of 3 judges (circuit court)
> - a majority of the whole circuit (if they agree to hear "en banc")
> and then, if the losing side convices the supreme court that the case is interesting:
> - 5 of 9 supreme court justices.
> 
> This will all take years, during which time any lower-court judgements will likely be stayed pending appeal.


That's only if the judge doesn't rule in favor of TiVo. I really, really don't think the FCC gets to appeal to the circuit court. Though I don't know much about the administrative adjudication process for the FCC as I do for other government agencies like ICE and SSA. I'm sure the FCC can ask the ruling be reviewed and it can be remanded by a review panel (but that isn't done by the circuit court; it's done by ICE and SSA for administrative hearings for those agencies) back to the ALJ but the ALJ can rule the same way again and they can't force the ALJ to reverse him/herself and they can't shop the case around to a more favorable ALJ (thus protecting judicial independence). Now if ALJ ruled in favor of the FCC, then the next court of appeal for TiVo would be federal circuit court. However, the FCC probably doesn't have that kind of a right to appeal (assuming the FCC administrative legal process is consistent with other the administrative adjudication process of other agencies) because the administrative hearings are theoretically intrinsically less adversarial than criminal or civil hearings and the ALJ adequately represents the agency's interests (at least that's how it works with SSA hearings). This is also one of the reason's why it's much cheaper than a hearing in the ciruit court system. And I can't imagine that there's that much of a case backlog for the FCC's ALJs, so that's why I don't think this would be nearly as slow or expensive as TiVo's battle with Echostar.


----------



## tunnelengineer

So anyway, since we are sticking on the topic subject so well............................


----------



## jfh3

eisenb11 said:


> Hehe, I picked up a Sony S1 w Lifetime for $40 last week


Congrats! What amounts to $239 for lifetime on a Series 3.

I don't know where the lifetime prices will settle, but you can pretty much guarantee that you got the last eBay deal in that range ...


----------



## eisenb11

jfh3 said:


> Congrats! What amounts to $239 for lifetime on a Series 3.
> 
> I don't know where the lifetime prices will settle, but you can pretty much guarantee that you got the last eBay deal in that range ...


Speaking of which, what's with all those units on eBay with lifetime "Tivo Basic Service"?

Is this confusing "seller speak" for "lifetime Tivo service" or is there some lower tier of service out there - one that probably won't count towards a transfer?

Oh and I think eBay is onto the value of S1/Lifetimes... I got mine locally 

I checked last night and there were a bunch of S1/Lifetimes on eBay for a decent current price, but they still had quite a bit of time to go...


----------



## zachcarter

I just picked up a "broken" series 2 with lifetime for $120 off craigslist. I'm hoping I can fix it, but if I can't, does anyone anticipate any problems getting the lifetime transferred from a box that won't boot up and call in properly?


----------



## TexasAg

eisenb11 said:


> Speaking of which, what's with all those units on eBay with lifetime "Tivo Basic Service"?
> 
> Is this confusing "seller speak" for "lifetime Tivo service" or is there some lower tier of service out there - one that probably won't count towards a transfer?
> 
> Oh and I think eBay is onto the value of S1/Lifetimes... I got mine locally
> 
> I checked last night and there were a bunch of S1/Lifetimes on eBay for a decent current price, but they still had quite a bit of time to go...


Some boxes like DVD boxes with Tivo came with "Tivo Basic" service free. Not real sure what that included, but I assume (since Tivo wasn't being paid for "real" lifetime service) that service on these boxes is not transferrable.



zachcarter said:


> I just picked up a "broken" series 2 with lifetime for $120 off craigslist. I'm hoping I can fix it, but if I can't, does anyone anticipate any problems getting the lifetime transferred from a box that won't boot up and call in properly?


I don't think that it needs to dial in at all. The "6 month" dial in requirement was so that you keep any MSD you might have. Lifetime service doesn't "expire" if the box fails to dial in for 6 months. You should just be able to call Tivo with the TSN at the appropriate time to transfer the lifetime service to an S3.


----------



## ingenue007

all tivo needs is the number from the back of your tivo to verify if it is lifetime.

once this ad hits nationally, tivo prices with lifetime will sky rocket. people won't buy it for the tivo...they'll buy it to transfer.


----------



## shady

ingenue007 said:


> all tivo needs is the number from the back of your tivo to verify if it is lifetime.
> 
> once this ad hits nationally, tivo prices with lifetime will sky rocket. people won't buy it for the tivo...they'll buy it to transfer.


But doesn't Lifetime mean "Lifetime of the box", so if the box has expired, then so has your "Lifetime service". It would seem perfectly reasonable to me that TiVo would expect the box to still be able to phone home.


----------



## megazone

eisenb11 said:


> Speaking of which, what's with all those units on eBay with lifetime "Tivo Basic Service"?
> 
> Is this confusing "seller speak" for "lifetime Tivo service" or is there some lower tier of service out there - one that probably won't count towards a transfer?


TiVo Basic is included on the Pioneer and Toshiba boxes. It has never been called 'lifetime' - that's misleading seller speak. And it is NOT the same as Lifetime service, it does NOT qualify for this deal.


----------



## eisenb11

megazone said:


> TiVo Basic is included on the Pioneer and Toshiba boxes. It has never been called 'lifetime' - that's misleading seller speak. And it is NOT the same as Lifetime service, it does NOT qualify for this deal.


Ah, that's what I thought. Guess those guys on eBay with these boxes may be jumping on the "lifetime" bandwagon in hopes someone confuses their box with an actual lifetime box.


----------



## TriBruin

eisenb11 said:


> Ah, that's what I thought. Guess those guys on eBay with these boxes may be jumping on the "lifetime" bandwagon in hopes someone confuses their box with an actual lifetime box.


Kind of like the people that were selling Xbox 360 boxes for hundreds of dollars hoping that people didn't realize they were not actually receiving an Xbox360


----------



## lessd

ingenue007 said:


> all tivo needs is the number from the back of your tivo to verify if it is lifetime.
> 
> once this ad hits nationally, tivo prices with lifetime will sky rocket. people won't buy it for the tivo...they'll buy it to transfer.


How do you figure the price increase as a Series 2 goes for about $400 more with lifetime on now so you would spend $500 for a series 2 Xfer the lifetime for another $200 for a total of $700, re-sell the series 2 with 1 year of service for about $100 for a lifetime Series 3 cost of $600, about what the gift cards go for.


----------



## DLiquid

I've had a broken SVR2000 with lifetime sitting here in my office for ages. Does this mean I might actually be able to get a couple hundred for it on eBay?


----------



## ingenue007

i just bought a coupon on ebay for 12 percent off tivos. i hope they have it available before oct.


----------



## MichaelK

HDTiVo said:


> Yeah, right, SDV is not legal.


someone said it was illegal?


----------



## MichaelK

DCIFRTHS said:


> Where did you find this data? Do you have a chart, link, manufacturer's statements or any comprehensive data that you compiled?


one place:

ny time july 7 article


----------



## btwyx

I've now completed part 1 of my master plan. I've bought a lifetime stanalone (Philips Series 1*) from eBay, and transferred the lifetime into my name. (My first SA, I've only ever had DTiVos before.)

Now I just need to get the S3 and transfer the lifetime to it, then sell the Series 1 with the 1 year of service.

Even if the transfer offer doesn't materialise, I'll still get MSD for the S3. $6.95/month is more palatable than $12.95/month. The $12.95/month service was about the only reservation I have with the S3.

*PS: This thing is a brick, it weighs about 20lb, what did they make it of?


----------



## 1283

btwyx said:


> then sell the Series 1 with the 1 year of service.


You cannot transfer that unit to another person, so you have to keep it in your account and cancel it after 1 year.


----------



## stevereis

Can you transfer that free year to another box, say an S2DT? If so, I would pay the $65 (after rebate from online retailers) to upgrade to an S2DT unit after transferring LT to an S3


----------



## 1283

You can transfer, but you don't get the rebate.


----------



## btwyx

c3 said:


> You cannot transfer that unit to another person, so you have to keep it in your account and cancel it after 1 year.


Why can't you transfer it? and if you're right, what's the downside, apart from a little hassle?


----------



## 1283

btwyx said:


> Why can't you transfer it?


You cannot transfer a non-lifetime subscription to another person.


----------



## loubob57

Now that the S3 is up on the TiVo page, which deal do you pick if you intend to transfer lifetime?

I guess I'll call the hotline (866-424-8486) and ask when I get off work.


----------



## ab3tx

Noticed this fine print on the www.tivo.com/vip page:

Offer Terms and Conditions

1. Tivo® Series3TM HD DVR purchase required by 12/31/2006 and activation of the DVR is required by 01/31/2007. Series3 HD DVR must be purchased through TiVo.com. DVRs purchased through retail channels are not eligible.


----------



## cheerdude

loubob57 said:


> Now that the S3 is up on the TiVo page, which deal do you pick if you intend to transfer lifetime?
> 
> I guess I'll call the hotline (866-424-8486) and ask when I get off work.


Go to the VIP website - By adding it to your cart, you will jump directly to the TiVo Store bypassing the need to select a plan.


----------



## AVSman

ab3tx said:


> Noticed this fine print on the www.tivo.com/vip page:
> 
> Offer Terms and Conditions
> 
> 1. Tivo® Series3TM HD DVR purchase required by 12/31/2006 and activation of the DVR is required by 01/31/2007. Series3 HD DVR must be purchased through TiVo.com. DVRs purchased through retail channels are not eligible.


 :down: Booooo! That sucks, as I have bunch of Circuit City gift cards to burn, so I'll be getting my S3 there. Oh well, at least I have a lifetime giftcard I can use.


----------



## Jazhuis

I have one question from the fine print of the Lifetime offer:



> 5. Cancellation of only the 1-year contract on the old DVR while still transferring the Product Lifetime Service to the new Series3 HD DVR will be permitted, but only after 60 days of service for both boxes have elapsed. Cancellations on the 1-year contract will not result in refund of the $199 transfer fee. All other warranty replacement costs still apply to the old DVR.


That cancellation of the "1-year contract" applies to the free year contract on the old unit, right? So essentially, that says that you have to not pay for at least 60 days of service on the old unit before you can tell them to cancel the remaining 335 free days?


----------



## sommerfeld

Jazhuis said:


> That cancellation of the "1-year contract" applies to the free year contract on the old unit, right? So essentially, that says that you have to not pay for at least 60 days of service on the old unit before you can tell them to cancel the remaining 335 free days?


That's the way I read it, too. It makes a weird sort of sense if you believe the reason for the 1-year free contract is to boost their subscriber numbers until such time as cox and comcast deployments happen in force.


----------



## btwyx

I just ordered mine.


----------



## ingenue007

i just ordered mine 2nd day shipping. i cant believe i was unlucky and got charged tax of 67 dollars. ugh. 878 total. i'm not happy with that number. +200 more to transfer. ugh.


----------



## greenstork

I have a Samsung SIR-4120 DirecTiVo and I have never paid TiVo a dime. However, the unit does not require a monthly fee, only $6 to D*TV per month. Is this considered a lifetime subscription?


----------



## cwoody222

greenstork said:


> I have a Samsung SIR-4120 DirecTiVo and I have never paid TiVo a dime. However, the unit does not require a monthly fee, only $6 to D*TV per month. Is this considered a lifetime subscription?


No.

Lifetime subscription is a one-time payment to TiVo in the hundreds-of-dollars range.

D*TiVo's weren't eligible for lifetime subs anyway.


----------



## drosoph

Referral swap anyone  -- Or is that banned here?


----------



## bferrell

ab3tx said:


> Noticed this fine print on the www.tivo.com/vip page:
> 
> Offer Terms and Conditions
> 
> 1. Tivo® Series3TM HD DVR purchase required by 12/31/2006 and activation of the DVR is required by 01/31/2007. Series3 HD DVR must be purchased through TiVo.com. DVRs purchased through retail channels are not eligible.


DUDE! I called in and a CSR told me I HAD to buy it retail and call in, so I ordered from Circuit City. I'm totally screwed. Hope I can cancel my order.

Brett


----------



## Ereth

This thread has been moving so fast it's hard to keep up!

First, I'm very excited to see this finally released.

Second, the Lifetime Transfer is awesome. I have a dead Series 1 with Lifetime (it's got a broken modem) that I was keeping because I couldn't bear to discard the Lifetime service. Every time I started thinking about what it would take to get it online again (TiVoNet, etc) I decided it wasn't really worth it for an old Series 1.

NOW I can transfer that Lifetime to a brand new Series 3 and not have to worry about how to get the Series 1 back to life.This is GREAT for me, and great for TiVo since they get a newer box with newer features in the consumers home.

TiVo, good job!

I already called Comcast and the cablecards are free, though I don't have digital service so I would have to upgrade to get HD channels from them and that will cost me an additional $12/month per Cablecard. More if I want more than just locals.

But this move sets me up for when DirecTV decides that the HR10-250 isn't going to be supported any more. I'm VERY happy.

There was a comment earlier in the thread about QAM. Doesn't this answer from the FAQ basically say that the TiVo CAN do it?



> Will the Series3 HD DVR work without CableCARD(s)?
> Yes. Without CableCARD(s) the Series3 HD DVR will still be able to access in-the clear digital cable channels (generally local channels), basic cable channels, ATSC digital over the air channels (available in high definition in most areas) and analog antenna channels.


----------



## davezatz

Ereth said:


> There was a comment earlier in the thread about QAM. Doesn't this answer from the FAQ basically say that the TiVo CAN do it?


The S3 can tune unencrypted QAM, but currently it will not know that xxx.xx matches up to NBC HD for example. I'm not sure what priority researching/adding that functionality is.


----------



## eisenb11

I just ordered mine w 2-day shipping. Stupid CA sales tax... $66.00...


----------



## Jazhuis

sommerfeld said:


> That's the way I read it, too. It makes a weird sort of sense if you believe the reason for the 1-year free contract is to boost their subscriber numbers until such time as cox and comcast deployments happen in force.


Gah! Your user name is so close to my last name that it freaks me out when I see you reply to my posts. 

My other guess might be that it may be a way to make sure that the unit LT is being transferred from isn't on its very last legs. Of course, just because you have service doesn't mean you make your Tivo dial in...hmm.

Or, while I'm wildly speculating, it means that the secondhand market won't be immediately flooded with perfectly good S1's and S2's as people replace them with S3's. The sad part is that MRV would be the perfect excuse for people who are buying the S3 as a second Tivo, to show them how useful it would be...to upgrade their old S2 to an S3. Heh.


----------



## eisenb11

My guess is that they're hoping you'll hook the S3 up to your primary TV (i.e. living room) then hook your old S1/S2 up to another TV (i.e. bedroom)... then after one year get used to having it on that second TV and continue paying via the multi-unit discount.


----------



## Shawn95GT

eisenb11 said:


> My guess is that they're hoping you'll hook the S3 up to your primary TV (i.e. living room) then hook your old S1/S2 up to another TV (i.e. bedroom)... then after one year get used to having it on that second TV and continue paying via the multi-unit discount.


I see my kids getting a Tivo in the play room in the near future - lol.


----------



## eisenb11

So, I was thinking (ignore that burning smell)...

Since the S3 is supposed to be a non-standard-consumer-high-end unit I wonder if Tivo will be incorporating some way to control it via home automation systems?

I develop automation software and would be stoked if Tivo implemented control over ethernet. 

It would be sweet if we could download the EPG data off of the Tivo for display on the controller system... at the least, they should allow us to transmit discreet commands (power on, power off, change channel to, etc) via ethernet...


----------



## Glen Graham

cwoody222 said:


> D*TiVo's weren't eligible for lifetime subs anyway.


On the contrary. Original Series 1 D*TiVo's could be lifetime'd with TiVo, and I seem to recall they had to pay the same higher monthly charge as standalone's if they did not.

Many D* users got lifetime. When D* went to "in-house" TiVo support, at $5/month per account, those with a lifetime were exempt from that $5/month fee.

The question is: Does an original D*TiVo with lifetime qualify for transfer to the S3?

*edit* Just found several lifetime D*TiVo's on eBay for just over $200 "Buy It Now"...


----------



## cwoody222

I stand corrected.

However, the poster here said he doesn't pay TiVo a dime and instead pays DirecTV $6/mo. So his unit, at least, is NOT a lifetime unit.


----------



## technojunkie

Well I held off until I actually read the offer on TiVo's web site and now I know we've been had. Some offer. They sell us a box at list with no opportunity to buy it locally and they are going to let us put life time service on it. How nice  . I'm insulted by this. I've been a loyal TiVo owners since 2000 and own 3 units with lifetime service. Too bad you didn't make this a reasonable offer. Like buy a Series 3 at list price ($799) and we'll throw in life time service for free. Now that would have been a deal. This is sad...very sad.


----------



## Ereth

The D*Tivo "Lifetime Membership" got transferred from the box to the account. I had one of the original Sony DTivos with Lifetime. When DTV took it over, the line item moved off the box and onto the "DVR Service". That particular Tivo died earlier this year (hard drive failure) and when I turned it off, DTV had to re-arrange things (because it was my first DTV receiver) but the Lifetime Service is still on my DTV account.

When you check "Manage My Account" the DTivos don't show up there (they used to before DTV took over the billing). I am quite positive that you wouldn't be able to transfer Lifetime from a DTivo to the Series 3 simply because TiVo doesn't "own" that Lifetime subscription any longer, DirecTV does.


----------



## Ereth

technojunkie said:


> Well I held off until I actually read the offer on TiVo's web site and now I know we've been had. Some offer. They sell us a box at list with no opportunity to buy it locally and they are going to let us put life time service on it. How nice  . I'm insulted by this. I've been a loyal TiVo owners since 2000 and own 3 units with lifetime service. Too bad you didn't make this a reasonable offer. Like buy a Series 3 at list price ($799) and we'll throw in life time service for free. Now that would have been a deal. This is sad...very sad.


You'll have to help me out. I don't understand this attitude.

You can buy a Series 3, same as anybody else. The fact that they AREN'T giving you Lifetime for free is "sad"? Why? Why would you expect that they would.

Lifetime is gone. You can't buy it anymore. Here's a chance to transfer Lifetime from an older system, without any of the more recent features, to a new, state-of-the-art system. When they turned Lifetime off, people were in here saying how much they wanted Lifetime on the Series 3 and how they'd never turn their Series 1/2 off now. This is a win/win. The customer can get the new product AND get Lifetime on it, and TiVo gets to get those old boxes that can't do their new functionality out of the system.

They could have just let you buy the Series 3 and not offered Lifetime at all. So in that regard, this IS a deal. And one I fully intend to take advantage of.


----------



## technojunkie

Get seroius dude. The price on this thing will be $499 in no time, probably $399! And you pay them $199 for lifetime. No thank you! That is a royal abuse of early adopters. What a privilege!


----------



## bicker

technojunkie said:


> I'm insulted by this.


That's silly. 

Why do people think it makes sense to take business offers personally? Let's come back to Planet Earth, please.


----------



## TK421

I'm sorry. Where again on the site does it say you *have* to do this?


----------



## eisenb11

And who says that BB won't be selling the S3 for $799 too?

As for the price dropping over time... every single electronic gizmo on the market does this. Price starts high and goes down - more the longer you wait.

So yeah, the early adopters will get burned the worst. But I think I speak for all early adopters when I say "we're expecting that".

It's not a Tivo-only thing. You early adopt and pay the highest price - the price can only go down from there.

I bought an $800 Tivo and fully expect that I'll have paid more than people who buy it in a year or two or three from now.

But you know what? When they get their cheaper Tivo, I'll have been using mine for 1, 2, 3 years before they got the thing for $400.

Unless they drop the price from $800 to $600 within the first few months your price argument about early-adopters getting screwed is pretty moot.


----------



## Ereth

technojunkie said:


> Get seroius dude. The price on this thing will be $499 in no time, probably $399! And you pay them $199 for lifetime. No thank you! That is a royal abuse of early adopters. What a privilege!


The good news, of course, is that nobody is putting a gun to your head to force you to be an early adopter.

Some of us are willing to pay for the priviledge. My HDTV cost $3500 when I bought it and you can buy it today for about $1500. Should I feel screwed? Not at all. I got to watch HDTV for the last 3 years.

And when the Series 3 comes down, I'll feel the same way.


----------



## bicker

The HDTV I bought when it was released in early June for $2195 is now selling someplaces for $1700. That's the way things like that go.


----------



## Fraser+Dief

tunnelengineer said:


> A short term offer is far better than no offer.......
> 
> Sounds to me like you need to complain to whatever canadian provider you have to get cablecards. It is not Tivo's problem.....


Hardly. This deal is so short that it's almost meaningless. And now it's even more restricted by limiting it to direct customers only.

"All customers are equal, but some are more equal than others."



> Also the units will still work with a single cable (coax) and an antenna connection (coax). They may not be HD, but you could still use the unit until your cable provider uses cablecards. Here in the states it is mandated that the cable providers supply cablecards (and support them).


Actually, since Tivo stupidly took the IR blaster out of the system, no I can't just buy one anyway and use it until/if Cablecard arrives. No ability to drive a cable box = incompatible with millions of Canadian households.


----------



## eisenb11

Um, you do know that if you need to drive a cable box you're barking up the wrong tree with the S3 right?

The whole point of HD DVRs is that they have direct access to the incoming signal.

If you're driving a cable box, you're not getting the raw signal, which actually makes things a lot more complicated (and expensive) to implement DVR functionality.

Think of the processing power you'd need to be able to encode 1080i from a analog composite output, for example, in real time.

If you're after HD, you must be able to record direct from the source. This is how a cable HD DVR works, the satellite HD DVRs, and now the Tivo HD DVR. The Microsoft DVRs will also use cable card in order to do this. Any other way and it's not feasible.

So:

1. If you want to record HD from an externals HD STB the technology for what you want isn't there.

2. If you want to use the S3 for standard def TV you might as well buy a cheaper S1/S2 unit.

It seems to me a lot of people don't understand the purpose of the S3 in the grander scheme of things.


----------



## Shawn95GT

Fraser+Dief said:


> Actually, since Tivo stupidly took the IR blaster out of the system, no I can't just buy one anyway and use it until/if Cablecard arrives. No ability to drive a cable box = incompatible with millions of Canadian households.


What would you gain over a S2 single tuner then? Or a S2DT if you have any analog cable channels. Since it can't input HD from a box it's moot.

While I would have liked to see a SD input and IR blasters on the S3, I understand why they didn't.

FWIW, I have an S3 on the way and my Cable system comes into the house via Cat-5 (VDSL). This neccesitates a STB and a Tivo to control it. My S2 still has a purpose. It would have been nice to let the S3 do it all, but for now the S2 will do for cable channels.


----------



## loubob57

I just ordered an S3 w/2-day shipping. Total came to $877.16. Will I feel screwed when they only cost $400 in a year or two? Nope, I know what I'm getting into so you won't hear any whining from me!


----------



## bicker

eisenb11 said:


> Um, you do know that if you need to drive a cable box you're barking up the wrong tree with the S3 right?
> 
> The whole point of HD DVRs is that they have direct access to the incoming signal.


The "whole point" of HD DVRs is to record HD programming for playback at a later time. Where that programming comes from, and how "direct" or "indirect" access to the incoming signal is, are not, in any way, shape or form, the "whole point" of HD DVRs.



> It seems to me a lot of people don't understand the purpose of the S3 in the grander scheme of things.


Rather, the S3 may not be able to satisfy the needs of a large portion of their potential customer base.


----------



## ThreeSoFar

This is pretty cool.

Glad I held onto an extra lifetimed S2 or two.

Do we know yet if we can do this with/for two lifetimed S3s (each transferred from its own lifetimed S2)?


----------



## dheerema

MickeS said:


> $1000 for a S3 with lifetime, free S2 service for a year and presumably $6.95/month thereafter ain't too bad...
> 
> I wonder if some people who bought Lifetime gift cards off of ebay will be pissed.


You need to consider though that the street price of your S1 or S2 with lifetime just went to zero.

-Doug


----------



## ThreeSoFar

dheerema said:


> You need to consider though that the street price of your S1 or S2 with lifetime just went to zero.
> 
> -Doug


I disagree.

How many folks out there would like a lifetimed series 3 and would pay for the S2 to transfer?

Might have gone down, but not to 0.


----------



## Leo_N

bicker said:


> The "whole point" of HD DVRs is to record HD programming for playback at a later time. Where that programming comes from, and how "direct" or "indirect" access to the incoming signal is, are not, in any way, shape or form, the "whole point" of HD DVRs.


You're splitting hairs here, maybe the quoted "whole point" should have said the "key" to HD DVRs is being able to have direct access to the raw digital signal. It would be extremely cost prohibitive to have to try an encode an HD signal.

The people b***hing at the $800 price tag would probably be struck dumb by the price if they had 2 encoders in the S3 capable of HD programming.


----------



## dheerema

ThreeSoFar said:


> I disagree.
> 
> How many folks out there would like a lifetimed series 3 and would pay for the S2 to transfer?
> 
> Might have gone down, but not to 0.


On ebay, a S1 SVR2000 with lifetime has recently sold for $350.00. A SVR 2000 without lifetime goes for 30 or 40 bucks. (Basically used for parts to keep lifetime units running)

Now I have a lifetime sub card I paid $600 bucks for. I could buy a unit for $800, and add $600 for $1400. On the other hand I could buy an S3 for $800, then spen another $200 to transfer lifetime, then loose another $300 for the reduced value of my S1 (total cost $1300)

I think I will wait for the S3 to come down, then use my gift card. I will still get a couple hundred for my S1. They will probably offer another Lifetime transfer when the S4 comes out! I'm sure they would be thrilled to get rid of the S1's out there.


----------



## ThreeSoFar

dheerema said:


> On ebay, a S1 SVR2000 with lifetime has recently sold for $350.00. A SVR 2000 without lifetime goes for 30 or 40 bucks. (Basically used for parts to keep lifetime units running)
> 
> Now I have a lifetime sub card I paid $600 bucks for. I could buy a unit for $800, and add $600 for $1400. On the other hand I could buy an S3 for $800, then spen another $200 to transfer lifetime, then loose another $300 for the reduced value of my S1 (total cost $1300)
> 
> I think I will wait for the S3 to come down, then use my gift card. I will still get a couple hundred for my S1. They will probably offer another Lifetime transfer when the S4 comes out! I'm sure they would be thrilled to get rid of the S1's out there.


Ah...yes, the one from which you transfer the lifetime (which is no longer lifetimed at all) is now worth much much less. Yes. I misunderstood you at first.

But any that retain their lifetime still have their value, I'd say close to what they had before.


----------



## dheerema

ThreeSoFar said:


> Ah...yes, the one from which you transfer the lifetime (which is no longer lifetimed at all) is now worth much much less. Yes. I misunderstood you at first.
> 
> But any that retain their lifetime still have their value, I'd say close to what they had before.


I think I will see how ling I can keep m S1 on life support. It has been absolutely perfect for 6 years now. Besides, I love the remote. I hate the penut shaped one on the S2. Always pointing the damned thing at myself.....


----------



## Mr. Laser Beam

cjw2001 said:


> They also throw in an additional 12 months of service on the existing box when you pick this option..


What if I don't WANT any more service on the existing box? (I only have one TV.) Can I cancel the old box completely?


----------



## Leo_N

Mr. Laser Beam said:


> What if I don't WANT any more service on the existing box? (I only have one TV.) Can I cancel the old box completely?


I'd imagine you could, but why? It's free for a year. Why not let it run for 364 days and then not renew, just in case you decide you want to use it for standard def stuff or even if you just use it as a music player from mp3's on a computer or any of the other HME apps.


----------



## Mr. Laser Beam

Leo_N said:


> I'd imagine you could, but why? It's free for a year.


It's also useless to me. Remember, I only have one TV.



> Why not let it run for 364 days and then not renew


I shouldn't have to do that. If I *know* I will just be throwing away the old unit, why can't I do that right away? It doesn't make sense.

And besides, if I "don't renew", then it won't just stop - it'll start charging a monthly fee. I definitely don't want THAT.



> just in case you decide you want to use it for standard def stuff


The S3 can record SD stuff, can't it?



> or even if you just use it as a music player from mp3's on a computer or any of the other HME apps.


The S3 can also do those things as well.


----------



## bidger

Mr. Laser Beam said:


> It's also useless to me. Remember, I only have one TV.


OK, you've got one TV, does it only have one input?


----------



## Mr. Laser Beam

bidger said:


> OK, you've got one TV, does it only have one input?


No, it's got several, but I prefer not to have boxes I know I won't use. It just takes up space.

Besides, the S3 can record two shows at once; why would I ever need anything else?


----------



## Leo_N

Mr. Laser Beam said:


> It's also useless to me. Remember, I only have one TV.
> 
> I shouldn't have to do that. If I *know* I will just be throwing away the old unit, why can't I do that right away? It doesn't make sense.
> 
> And besides, if I "don't renew", then it won't just stop - it'll start charging a monthly fee. I definitely don't want THAT.
> 
> The S3 can record SD stuff, can't it?
> 
> The S3 can also do those things as well.


Sorry didn't notice having one TV. And yes, the S3 can do almost everything the S3 can except: no TivoToGo or MRV; granted MRV wouldn't do you any good without another Tivo anyway. However, having the other Tivo still there and hooked up would give you the extra option of a 3rd tuner for any scheduling conflicts.

Also, you could use the older Tivo for something like the music player in a room you don't watch tv in, like the garage, basement or the like. Granted you would need another tv to control it just to see whats going on with button pushing, but you wouldn't need more than a tiny 13" or something you could find for like $10 used.

I do see your point about not ever wanting to get charged, but even if you forget once, its just 6.95 and then you remember to call and cancel it. Or write it on a calendar now so you don't forget later next year.

Sorry to ramble on, just some options.


----------



## Ereth

Mr. Laser Beam said:


> Besides, the S3 can record two shows at once; why would I ever need anything else?


Oh, I long for the days when I thought that way!

Right now I can record, lets see.. 4 HDTV OTA sources, 4 satellite sources (2 of which could be HDTV) and one analog cable TV source, simultaneously. I actually have more tuners than that, because one box needs multiple tuners to be able to record two shows simultaneously from multiple inputs. And, I'll grant you, I don't think I ever record 9 things at once. But two? I exceeded that ability a LONG time ago.


----------



## Mr. Laser Beam

Leo_N said:


> Also, you could use the older Tivo for something like the music player in a room you don't watch tv in, like the garage, basement or the like. Granted you would need another tv to control it just to see whats going on with button pushing, but you wouldn't need more than a tiny 13" or something you could find for like $10 used.


Why not just get a boom box?


----------



## eisenb11

bicker said:


> The "whole point" of HD DVRs is to record HD programming for playback at a later time. Where that programming comes from, and how "direct" or "indirect" access to the incoming signal is, are not, in any way, shape or form, the "whole point" of HD DVRs.
> 
> Rather, the S3 may not be able to satisfy the needs of a large portion of their potential customer base.


I'm going to take it that you're not an engineer?

You sorta decided to ignore what I posted after that. How "direct" or "indirect" we get the incoming signal is 100% important. I'll highlight some of the key phrases here in hopes that you see them this time.

*There is a huge difference in processing power required in order to encode a datastream than to decode a data stream*. Encoding takes a lot more power.

*A HD DVR takes a datastream that's already encoded*. It's being sent straight from the cable company. This already encoded data stream is saved to the hard drive (most likely with some form of DRM scheme). When the HD DVR plays back the recording it is merely performing a decoding operation (remember these are "cheap" to do).

*A STB also reads encoded data from the cable company and decodes it * before it's sending the data out the DVI, HDMI, component, or whatever output.

If a HD DVR was to hook up to the STB *it would have to take this decoded data and reencode it*. It won't save it as raw data because the amount of space it would eat up would be enormous.

So what you ask is *not technically feasable.*

If you think $800 for a S3 is bad, how would you feel about paying *$3,000* for a S3 that can accept and re-encode HD output from a STB?

It's going to take a *ridiculous amount of processing power* in order to encode a HD data stream in real time.

You might as well complain that the S3 can't brew coffee while you're at it.


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## btwyx

Not forgetting the reencoding will degrade the video quaity.


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## DCIFRTHS

eisenb11 said:


> ...You might as well complain that the S3 can't brew coffee while you're at it.


I heard that the S4 will have a port for the external and optional Mr. Coffee 3000


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## eisenb11

DCIFRTHS said:


> I heard that the S4 will have a port for the external and optional Mr. Coffee 3000


Wow nice! Is that part of the new CC 3.0.2 spec I've been hearing about?


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## Deacon West

That's child's play. For my money, the S4 at $4000 retail is a bargain as it will also press your clothes and do the dishes. I've also heard about some hacks for additional functionality, but I'll leave that to posters in the appropriate forum to discuss.


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## eisenb11

Ah, so that's what that new "slot" in the S4 is for....


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## russwong

This is not true, I record HD from an HD STB MOTO6200 using firewire to my MCE.



eisenb11 said:


> Um, you do know that if you need to drive a cable box you're barking up the wrong tree with the S3 right?
> 
> The whole point of HD DVRs is that they have direct access to the incoming signal.
> 
> If you're driving a cable box, you're not getting the raw signal, which actually makes things a lot more complicated (and expensive) to implement DVR functionality.
> 
> Think of the processing power you'd need to be able to encode 1080i from a analog composite output, for example, in real time.
> 
> If you're after HD, you must be able to record direct from the source. This is how a cable HD DVR works, the satellite HD DVRs, and now the Tivo HD DVR. The Microsoft DVRs will also use cable card in order to do this. Any other way and it's not feasible.
> 
> So:
> 
> 1. If you want to record HD from an externals HD STB the technology for what you want isn't there.
> 
> 2. If you want to use the S3 for standard def TV you might as well buy a cheaper S1/S2 unit.
> 
> It seems to me a lot of people don't understand the purpose of the S3 in the grander scheme of things.


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## eisenb11

russwong said:


> This is not true, I record HD from an HD STB MOTO6200 using firewire to my MCE.


True, got me there... however, this is by a technicality.

Firewire is a digital data transfer link that can transfer data "as is". So your STB is outputting the same encoded signal it gets via the cable outlet to the MCE machine.

Firewire, however, is not a HDCP certified output. As such, the whole thing becomes moot if viewing HDCP protected content - which, eventually, pretty much everything is supposed to be.

Back to my original argument, my argument stands true still with any of the true video outputs (remember firewire, while used for video, is actually just a generic data transfer mechanism). The information from the MSO must be decoded in order to be sent through the composite out (and converted to analog). Likewise, it must also be decoded in order to be sent through the DVI or HDMI out.

DRM is killer and enabling HDCP will instantly kill Firewire (at least as implemented today).


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## bicker

Leo_N said:


> You're splitting hairs here, maybe the quoted "whole point" should have said the "key"


No -- it is the difference between what matters to the market and what matters to the technology -- what makes the product valueable and what is necessary for the product to provide that value.



> The people b***hing at the $800 price tag would probably be struck dumb by the price if they had 2 encoders in the S3 capable of HD programming.


No doubt that's part of it. The reality is that we're used to technology being cheap. Heck, there are computers that cost $300, now, so I think a lot of people cannot comprehend how one special-purpose processor can cost cost two or three times as much as a whole computer. And they'd have a point.


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## bicker

eisenb11 said:


> I'm going to take it that you're not an engineer?


I take it that you rely on confrontational rudeness to make your points.

Yes, I am an engineer.



> You sorta decided to ignore what I posted after that.


Rather, I disagreed with its relevance to what I was saying.


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## Brett

Mr. Laser Beam said:


> What if I don't WANT any more service on the existing box? (I only have one TV.) Can I cancel the old box completely?


I believe it said in the terms/conditions, you can cancel the service on the old box after 60 days.


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## Mr. Laser Beam

Brett said:


> I believe it said in the terms/conditions, you can cancel the service on the old box after 60 days.


Why do they make you wait 60 days?


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## Brett

Mr. Laser Beam said:


> Why do they make you wait 60 days?


I have no idea, maybe they are hoping people will get used to and and just want to keep it, or they will forget to cancel and keep it, so when a year hits they can start charging you the monthly fee.

_
Cancellation of only the 1-year contract on the old DVR while still transferring the Product Lifetime Service to the new Series3 HD DVR will be permitted, but only after 60 days of service for both boxes have elapsed. Cancellations on the 1-year contract will not result in refund of the $199 transfer fee. All other warranty replacement costs still apply to the old DVR.
_

its all here.


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## TK421

Brett said:


> I have no idea, maybe they are hoping people will get used to and and just want to keep it, or they will forget to cancel and keep it, so when a year hits they can start charging you the monthly fee.
> 
> _
> Cancellation of only the 1-year contract on the old DVR while still transferring the Product Lifetime Service to the new Series3 HD DVR will be permitted, but only after 60 days of service for both boxes have elapsed. Cancellations on the 1-year contract will not result in refund of the $199 transfer fee. All other warranty replacement costs still apply to the old DVR.
> _
> 
> its all here.


I think from one of TiVoJerry's other posts, it's to make sure the transfer all goes smoothly, in case you need in warranty replacement or something along those lines. The actual status of your boxes doesn't change for the first 30 days.


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## Leo_N

eisenb11 said:


> True, got me there... however, this is by a technicality.
> 
> Firewire is a digital data transfer link that can transfer data "as is". So your STB is outputting the same encoded signal it gets via the cable outlet to the MCE machine.
> 
> Firewire, however, is not a HDCP certified output. As such, the whole thing becomes moot if viewing HDCP protected content - which, eventually, pretty much everything is supposed to be.
> 
> Back to my original argument, my argument stands true still with any of the true video outputs (remember firewire, while used for video, is actually just a generic data transfer mechanism). The information from the MSO must be decoded in order to be sent through the composite out (and converted to analog). Likewise, it must also be decoded in order to be sent through the DVI or HDMI out.
> 
> DRM is killer and enabling HDCP will instantly kill Firewire (at least as implemented today).


And on top of what eisen said: There is NO way CableLabs would have certified the Tivo to use cablecards if you could dump the complete digital stream that easy.


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## IJustLikeTivo

AJRitz said:


> Yeah, those Humax boxes are pricer than I'd hoped - I hadn't looked that up before my last post. OTOH, my two hacked S2 DTivo boxes might have some value for folks who are sticking with DirecTV for a while. They're both Zippered and expanded, and I understand that such units are getting a bit scarce. I might be able to make back some of the difference on E-Bay.


Zippered? What does that mean?

On Topic. I'm on the fence. I have three lifetime units. One Sony series one, one phillips series one and a sony Dtivo series one. The issue for me is stay with D* or give up and move to cable. I have no real loyalty to D* so when I move to HD, I can go whichever direction makes more sense. My only hesitation was losing dual tuners and now they have answered that.


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## IJustLikeTivo

Dan203 said:


> I seriously doubt this will work for DTiVo units as the billing portion of the DTiVo units was transfered to DirecTV a long time ago.
> 
> Dan


I think they have to honor this since the deal was with TiVo not D* but I'm only guessing.


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## vman41

I didn't spot any warranty information listed under the S3's features or specifications, I assume it is the same 90 warranty as the S2s.

If I get a 1 year service contract, they apparently extend the parts warranty to cover the contract period. If I transfer lifetime to the S3 from a S2, the S2 gets the warrany extension.


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## Jonathan_S

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Zippered? What does that mean?


Hacked. 
Specifically, Zipper is a script that automates much of the hacking needed to make Series 2 DTiVos network enabled and configured to support multi-room viewing. (Just like the S2 SA units can).


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## blipszyc

ab3tx said:


> Noticed this fine print on the www.tivo.com/vip page:
> 
> Offer Terms and Conditions
> 
> 1. Tivo® Series3TM HD DVR purchase required by 12/31/2006 and activation of the DVR is required by 01/31/2007. Series3 HD DVR must be purchased through TiVo.com. DVRs purchased through retail channels are not eligible.


How will they verify this? I guess I'll wait and check back to see how the tranfer process works. Hopefully someone here will report back on the questions that the CSR asks so I can buy my S3 at WorstBuy and finally get rid of my giftcards.


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## MichaelK

Mr. Laser Beam said:



> Why do they make you wait 60 days?


it says someplcae that they have to do the transfer manually and it might take 60 days.

I assume they are afraid of screwing up your aco**** if you make changes before they transfer the lifetime.

Just a guess


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## eisenb11

bicker said:


> I take it that you rely on confrontational rudeness to make your points.
> 
> Yes, I am an engineer.
> 
> Rather, I disagreed with its relevance to what I was saying.


No intention to be rude, and my points were made a long time ago, I've just had to retype them over and over again for you. If you're an electrical or computer engineer these points should be obvious (if civil or mechanical maybe not so obvious).

In regard to your new comment of costs of dedicated devices, look at it in terms of yield. It's quite feasable for a small run of dedicated hardware to cause much more than mass produced products.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tivo hardware had FPGAs involved. FPGAs are expensive as well. Then you have the cost of the custom chassis, remote, etc, etc...

Someone asked in another thread about how much it really costs to make one of these $800 Tivos.

Assuming that BestBuy really is buying them for $500 (which is possible), then obviously, the answer is less than that. If I had to guess, I'd gander that it costs around $400 to make the $800 Tivo.

One hell of a markup, yes, but that's the "early adopter tax" for ya.

In time the price will come down, I'd bet money on that.


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## IJustLikeTivo

cwoody222 said:


> No.
> 
> Lifetime subscription is a one-time payment to TiVo in the hundreds-of-dollars range.
> 
> D*TiVo's weren't eligible for lifetime subs anyway.


Sure they were, I have one. I did buy it almost 6 years ago and I pay nothing for Tivo service on that unit or my other DTivo. In fact, I have no monthly tivo costs since the other two units also have lifetime.


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## btwyx

eisenb11 said:


> Firewire, however, is not a HDCP certified output. As such, the whole thing becomes moot if viewing HDCP protected content


If your look at Camcast's FAQ What is FireWire? it says that "HDCP copy protection is enabled." Which confused me a little, but it could mean that if there's HDCP, you don't get output.

FireWire does have a copy protection scheme (5C) which the FireWire people say is just as good.


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## eisenb11

btwyx said:


> If your look at Camcast's FAQ What is FireWire? it says that "HDCP copy protection is enabled." Which confused me a little, but it could mean that if there's HDCP, you don't get output.
> 
> FireWire does have a copy protection scheme (5C) which the FireWire people say is just as good.


Yeah, it's hard to tell for sure what they mean.

My take on the "HDCP is enabled" is that it is in regards to their digital cable service and not the firewire port in particular (see the heading of where it says that).

If the STB truly supports HDCP the content has the right to insist that it be downgraded (or not sent at all) if going through a non-HDCP-compliant output.

While 5c may be just as good, it's not HDCP. With HDCP the signal is supposed to be protected via HDCP through every device in the chain. Firewire would break that requirement because then it would either be non-encrypted or encoded via 5C which is not HDCP.

One thing I do wonder, however, would be if it is possible to make a HDCP-compliant Firewire port? I don't see why not, although who really knows...

HDCP is a pain in everyone's rear-end. I think it should be the posterboy to show the world how restrictive-DRM technologies do little more than kill innovation and drive everyone crazy.


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## megazone

blipszyc said:


> How will they verify this?


Easily. You have to order via a special form, and they know exactly which TSN is shipped to you. Anyone trying to transfer to a TSN not on the list must not have purchased it from the VIP page.


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## Deacon West

Apparently, they don't really care, at least not a whole lot right now.



TiVoStephen said:


> The official word is what's in the Terms and Conditions: Officially only Series3 units purchased directly from TiVo.com will qualify.
> 
> However, even though we're not obligated to accept retail orders for this offer, my understanding is that if you call customer support and ask for the offer, in most cases we will honor the offer.
> 
> If the Series3 unit you're trying to transfer to is already activated, then our customer support agents will not be able to help you unless the service is first canceled. (Since there's a 30-day money back guarantee, act fast and make sure you cancel within 30 days.)


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## phrend

If the S3 could control 2+ DishNetwork boxes via IR-Blaster, I'd buy it in a heartbeat... but I guess I'm just screwed in to keeping my S1 and missing out on this deal.


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## ThreeSoFar

Finally have lifetime showing up in my first Series 3. Transferred as soon as option was available (September?).

My second one, not yet.

Third one is on the way from Dell now....


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## Deacon West

My second S3 arrived late tonight from DHL. (about 8PM) Thanks Dell and thanks to the OP who told us about the deal. My love for the TCF continues.


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## replaytv

How do you read the code on the back of Series 1 Tivo to know when it was manufactured? Mine says 0 18-05-00. I know that doesn't tell if the lifetime can be transferred, but if it was manufactured after the 'drop dead' date in Januaray 2000 then I would know that it doesn't qualify. I know that somewhere I read or was told how to read these codes but can't find it anywhere. I have a couple more Series 1 with lifetime too. It sure would be nice to be able to transfer the lifetime to a new box.


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## joneSi

replaytv said:


> How do you read the code on the back of Series 1 Tivo to know when it was manufactured? Mine says 0 18-05-00. I know that doesn't tell if the lifetime can be transferred, but if it was manufactured after the 'drop dead' date in Januaray 2000 then I would know that it doesn't qualify. I know that somewhere I read or was told how to read these codes but can't find it anywhere. I have a couple more Series 1 with lifetime too. It sure would be nice to be able to transfer the lifetime to a new box.


I am going to commend you for searching, because clearly that is how you found this thread...that being said, this thread is 5+ years old now. I don't know what the current deals are with TiVo, but you might call to see if they would help you out with a transfer.

j


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## HerronScott

I would say that is May 18, 2000 so it would not qualify for the grandfathered free lifetime transfer. Mine has 0 06-04-00 and I got it for Father's Day in 2000. 

Scott


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## unitron

replaytv said:


> How do you read the code on the back of Series 1 Tivo to know when it was manufactured? Mine says 0 18-05-00. I know that doesn't tell if the lifetime can be transferred, but if it was manufactured after the 'drop dead' date in Januaray 2000 then I would know that it doesn't qualify. I know that somewhere I read or was told how to read these codes but can't find it anywhere. I have a couple more Series 1 with lifetime too. It sure would be nice to be able to transfer the lifetime to a new box.


The "grandfathered" lifetime service has to have been purchased on or before January 20 or 21, 2000.

Obviously the S1 has to have been manufactured prior to that date.

The ability to record without a sub depends on the unit having been manufactured before October, 2001, and having come from the factory with version 1.3 of the software.

These are two different things.

And I think you have to call TiVo to get the manual record flag re-set for those units that qualify.


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## HerronScott

unitron said:


> The ability to record without a sub depends on the unit having been manufactured before October, 2001, and having come from the factory with version 1.3 of the software.
> 
> These are two different things.
> 
> And I think you have to call TiVo to get the manual record flag re-set for those units that qualify.


I did not have to call on either of mine in order to let them record manually after we stopped service on both. The Sony manufactured May 2000 nor the Philips manufactured October 2000.

Scott


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## unitron

HerronScott said:


> I did not have to call on either of mine in order to let them record manually after we stopped service on both. The Sony manufactured May 2000 nor the Philips manufactured October 2000.
> 
> Scott


After you stopped service did you let them sit unpowered for a few years and then take them half way across the country and run Guided Setup again?


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