# New Competition for TiVo?



## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

Check this link: http://www.moxi.com/home.htm

Something similar to a Tivo S3 is being introduced in the Fall.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

It looks like you can get it only from a cable company, and only in certain areas. 

It appears just to be a cable box.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

The previous Moxi "flash" demo looked great too. Unfortunately, the actual Moxi box never got close to the "flash".

I fear the same thing will happen with this box.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Gregor said:


> It looks like you can get it only from a cable company, and only in certain areas.
> 
> It appears just to be a cable box.


The current Moxi / Digeo boxes ... yes, that is correct.

However, Moxi / Digeo have announced plans to introduce a CableCard based DVR directly to consumers second half 2007. I really wouldn't expect anything untill 2008 ... more details at CES ... etc., but ... that's just me.


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## SC0TLANDF0REVER (Dec 9, 2001)

IMHO there *is* no competition to TiVo


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

SC0TLANDF0REVER said:


> IMHO there *is* no competition to TiVo


+1


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## Boot (Mar 15, 2000)

SC0TLANDF0REVER said:


> IMHO there *is* no competition to TiVo


IMHO, there needs to be. Otherwise there's no incentive to improve.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> The current Moxi / Digeo boxes ... yes, that is correct.
> 
> However, Moxi / Digeo have announced plans to introduce a CableCard based DVR directly to consumers second half 2007. I really wouldn't expect anything untill 2008 ... more details at CES ... etc., but ... that's just me.


Interesting to see what they come up with. The box in the ad appears to be a cable STB, since the "get Moxi" link points to cable distribution only.

I think a healthy DVR marketplace helps Tivo. Many of my friends just don't get it when I talk about Tivo vs a VCR or DVD recorder.


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## George Webster (Apr 2, 2003)

MitchW said:


> Check this link: http://www.moxi.com/home.htm
> 
> Something similar to a Tivo S3 is being introduced in the Fall.


I see it has as a feature, recording one show while watching another. TIVO has the patent on that so maybe TIVO will sue them like they did the Dish Network and EchoSTAR.

TIVO was awarded 74 then bumped to 90 million bucks for that patent infringement.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

George Webster said:


> I see it has as a feature, recording one show while watching another. TIVO has the patent on that so maybe TIVO will sue them like they did the Dish Network and EchoSTAR.


Does it really? I thought that the patents were on the very specific engineering features that allowed they to do the DVR at very low costs.


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

SC0TLANDF0REVER said:


> IMHO there *is* no competition to TiVo


If the competition also requires cablecard, I agree.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

George Webster said:


> I see it has as a feature, recording one show while watching another. TIVO has the patent on that so maybe TIVO will sue them like they did the Dish Network and EchoSTAR.
> 
> TIVO was awarded 74 then bumped to 90 million bucks for that patent infringement.


Then how can the cable companies claim thier dvr's do it also?

ajwees41


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## George Webster (Apr 2, 2003)

ah30k said:


> Does it really? I thought that the patents were on the very specific engineering features that allowed they to do the DVR at very low costs.


The TIVO patent that allows for recording a program (or two) while watching a third program is called the Time Warp patent.

Here is some info

http://investor.tivo.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=207787


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## George Webster (Apr 2, 2003)

ajwees41 said:


> Then how can the cable companies claim thier dvr's do it also?
> 
> ajwees41


Right now the cable companies that have their own DVR are infringing on TIVO's patents. There are many TIVO patents.

TIVO won the case against Echo Star, which is the mother company for the dish network satellite system. This is the warning shot to other companies to not violate TIVO's 76 patents. Including cable companies. Since the first case was won by TIVO the other lawsuits should have the same result.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

George Webster said:


> The TIVO patent that allows for recording a program (or two) while watching a third program is called the Time Warp patent.
> 
> Here is some info
> 
> http://investor.tivo.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=207787


Your description for 'time warp' doesn't match that your linked article says:


> The Time Warp patent discloses systems and methods for the simultaneous storage and playback of programs, supporting advanced capabilities such as pausing live television, fast-forwarding, rewinding, instant replays, and slow motion.


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

MitchW said:


> Check this link: http://www.moxi.com/home.htm
> 
> Something similar to a Tivo S3 is being introduced in the Fall.


To answer your question.....YES. I have seen a non HD version of this software in action several times. The first time I saw it was right around the time Tivo was making a big deal about the "Home Media Options"". (and charging money for it....). Anyway this box was light years ahead of any cable DVR, equal to Tivo on features. I felt the interface was superior to Tivo and it would be a healthy addition to the DVR marketplace. It was only available from a few small cable companies at the time. There was even a rumor that Tivo was going to buy Digeo. [that was several years ago it's not going to happen now]

I finally got an S3 ($399 is the right price), but I have been waiting for a version of Moxi that would work with other cable companies for a while.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

George Webster said:


> Right now the cable companies that have their own DVR are infringing on TIVO's patents. There are many TIVO patents.
> 
> TIVO won the case against Echo Star, which is the mother company for the dish network satellite system. This is the warning shot to other companies to not violate TIVO's 76 patents. Including cable companies. Since the first case was won by TIVO the other lawsuits should have the same result.


could that be the reason Cox and Comcast are going to deploy the tivo software on the dvr's?

ajwees41


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

George Webster said:


> Right now the cable companies that have their own DVR are infringing on TIVO's patents. There are many TIVO patents.


I always supposed they might infringe in some small ways but they would have been careful not to do it in ways that would justify the expense of suits. But I suppose if the decision came down real hard on Dish then the cableco guys would be sweating a bit.

So that produces a kind of interesting take on things. Suppose the driving motivation for a comcast/cox tivo lite deal was not all this happy talk about satellite customer poaching and Tivo's brilliant UI, but is really just a cover your ass strategy. That is, if tivo wins, the cablecos are positioned for a no financial penalty deal that agrees to phase in Tivo on substantial numbers of new boxes. If Tivo loses, this motivation disappears and the cableco drops Tivo like the MS DVR software was dropped, or they only use it to do some test marketing for their own UI.


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## George Webster (Apr 2, 2003)

if tivo wins.[/QUOTE said:


> Tivo already won and the Echostar appeal was already denied.


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## George Webster (Apr 2, 2003)

ajwees41 said:


> could that be the reason Cox and Comcast are going to deploy the tivo software on the dvr's?
> 
> ajwees41


I believe so. Tivo possesses the patents for pausing live TV, rewinding and fast foward and recording programs while watching another program. In other words, everything we love about Tivo.

With Echostar having to pay Tivo 90 million dollars for infringing on Tivo's patents, not many cable or satilite companies want to be in that position. Now they are beginning to work with Tivo instead of stealing their ideas.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

George Webster said:


> I believe so. Tivo possesses the patents for pausing live TV, rewinding and fast foward and recording programs while watching another program. In other words, everything we love about Tivo.
> 
> With Echostar having to pay Tivo 90 million dollars for infringing on Tivo's patents, not many cable or satilite companies want to be in that position. Now they are beginning to work with Tivo instead of stealing their ideas.


Actually it wasn't the cable companies stealing the technology, but the dvr software makers.

ajwees41


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## rn701 (May 18, 2007)

Had Moxi with Charter cable service. Just replaced it this week with S3. No comparison.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

George Webster said:


> Tivo already won and the Echostar appeal was already denied.


For those of you that don't wander into the Coffee House very often, there is a thread over that is updated with the current status of the lawsuit if you're interested.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=353290


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## scoobydooby (Mar 16, 2006)

Tivo is the iPod of DVR's. 

Many will try to become a "Tivo killer", and some will be marginally successful, but non will have the ease of use and features.

When even a company as large as Motorola can't even get close, then you know you've got a winner.

The people I know that have a Moxi box want to set fire to it.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

George Webster said:


> The TIVO patent that allows for recording a program (or two) while watching a third program is called the Time Warp patent.
> 
> Here is some info
> 
> http://investor.tivo.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=207787


The TiVo patent is on the PROCESS of storing and recording live TV. If you do this without the use of their Media Switch you are OK.



> What is claimed is:
> 1. A process for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia data, comprising the steps of:
> accepting television (TV) broadcast signals, wherein said TV signals are based on a multitude of standards, including, but not limited to, National Television Standards Committee (NTSC) broadcast, PAL broadcast, satellite transmission, DSS, DBS, or ATSC;
> tuning said TV signals to a specific program;
> ...


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

George Webster said:


> Tivo already won and the Echostar appeal was already denied.


I believe he was talking about potential cable company lawsuits.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

rn701 said:


> Had Moxi with Charter cable service. Just replaced it this week with S3. No comparison.


This comes as no surprise. It appears that most of the folks who talk about how wonderful one DVR or another is and claim that the TiVo softwares reputation is overblown seem never to have owned a TiVo.


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## dbenrosen (Sep 20, 2003)

scoobydooby said:


> Tivo is the iPod of DVR's.


Without the market dominance. Or even market presence. Everyone has heard of TiVo, but most people will say they have TiVo when they have the cable co DVR (many of my friends who I've been unable to convince to get a TiVo have said this, and I correct them every time).

You never hear anyone who has a Zune (or any other non-iPod digital music player) say they have an iPod.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

jhimmel said:


> I believe he was talking about potential cable company lawsuits.


I was setting up the scenario of cableco's avoiding lawsuits, but it was my sloppiness to refer to the Echostar loss as I did. I should have worded it to convey the moment when it is clear that Dish won't be able to weasel out somehow. The time at which Dish feels the pain- when all the lawsuit machinations and fallout is done with. For example the treble damages have/have not been awarded, the money crosses the table, and Dish has agreed to buyback and destroy the infringing units, replacing with crippled DVRs.... Or... to avoid such logistical chaos and onerous costs agrees to generous terms such as a 10 year contract for Tivo to exclusively provide Dish DVRs, with Tivo owning the subs and has final word on feature set.

The kind of situation that might get cable folks super motivated to make happy / "further strengthen our long standing relationship with Tivo" (cough, cough).


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

SC0TLANDF0REVER said:


> IMHO there *is* no competition to TiVo


That depends on how one defines "competition". Unfortunately, it often means nothing more than a second product whose purchase (or in this case, often lease) by consumers reduces the number of purchases of the first product. I'll be the first to agree it should mean a second product whose price, features, and capabilities are in general equivalent to the first product given an unbiased evaluation of performance / cost, but I also have to admit the former is often the reality. That said, I agree none of the other offerings on the market are acceptable in my opinion. This opinion does not prevent hundreds of thousands of people from using those products, however.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> ...it often means nothing more than a second product whose purchase (or...lease) by consumers reduces the number of purchases of the first product...
> 
> ...it should mean a second product whose price, features, and capabilities are in general equivalent to the first product given an unbiased evaluation of performance / cost...
> 
> ...hundreds of thousands of people (are) using those products, however.


Many casual TV watchers don't desire and don't want to pay for TiVo's non-DVR extras.


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## MoxiGuy (May 11, 2004)

Here's an update on Moxi. (I'm a paid representative of Digeo, but I do my best to keep my posts fact-based with opinions clearly labeled as such.)

Moxi was first sold directly (2004) to cable companies. It's distributed in Charter, the Time Warner SoCal and Comcast Colorado Springs markets acquired from Adelphia, as well as several independent cable companies. The goal of the first product was to provide cable companies with an attractive alternative to vanilla DVR. TiVo was not the competition, but rather bare bones cable DVR. An example of how Moxi was focused on cable is the fact that it offered the first interface that integrated VOD listings into general search and browsing. (To my knowledge, it's still the only cable box that offers one search tool for both broadcast and on demand listings.)

As of this morning, Charter has begun rolling out a major upgrade to Moxi software (4.1) that provides dramatic enhancements to menu and U-I performance, new guide features, and allows storage expansion through an external hard disk drive. There are dozens of other improvements, but I single out these three as they were the most urgent enhancement requests we got from customers. 

I believe a fair comparison of the Moxi and TiVo user interfaces should be based on the latest software from both companies.

On the hardware side, planned for release later this year are a new version of the Mox box for cable companies and two models of Moxi that will be sold direct to customers.

The cable box is designed to lower costs to cable companies and meet the new FCC requirements regarding separating the security function by using a multistream CableCARD for conditional access.

The retail boxes differ from TiVo in both hardware and software features as well as user interface. (Pricing has not been announced.)

One version is based on the AMD Live Home Cinema reference design. Key hardware feature is an integrated home theatre amplifier. Just add a display and speakers. This version receives clear QAM and OTA (ATSC) only (no CableCARD).

The other version uses multi-stream cableCARD. It's designed as a multi-room system where the main unit acts as a server and a client box connects to the TV in the second room. The key benefits of this approach are a) cost-saving compared to providing full systems in each room and b) a single directory of recorded shows means you never have to keep track of which programs are recorded where.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

MoxiGuy said:


> The other version uses multi-stream cableCARD. It's designed as a multi-room system where the main unit acts as a server and a client box connects to the TV in the second room. The key benefits of this approach are a) cost-saving compared to providing full systems in each room and b) a single directory of recorded shows means you never have to keep track of which programs are recorded where.


That sounds like a really compelling feature and will certainly get a look from me at least!


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> That sounds like a really compelling feature and will certainly get a look from me at least!


I like the idea of a "central server", but I see one big drawback. With multiple "full-blown" DVRs, each DVR has its own two dedicated tuners, so four DVRs can simultaneously record 8 programs. Will the central server be limited to just two tuners? Sure, you get a "central library", but .... you also get more recording conflicts ...


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Let's get real for a second (with no disrespect to MoxiGuy). Moxi has been in development for years and years promising improvements and suffering from many problems - but improvements and fixes have been slow to happen just as with other cable DVR software. For instance a basic Grid Guide is not even an option in Moxi last I checked. Perhaps things have improved since I was last following the AVS Forum threads, but I doubt it.


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

On this "server' and multi-room stuff I smell standard definition only...


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## Tim N. (Apr 28, 2003)

I had a MOXI for over two years with Adelphia/TWC as the provider. The MOXI was acceptable in some ways and a royal pain in others. The disk was too small and the external ports were not activated before TWC killed all new updates. One of TIVO's greatest advantages is the grid display of what programming is available. This is another of TIVO's patented features that other companies do not mimic because it would require a license from TIVO. Comcast finally realized it is worth the license fee. 

The MOXI claim to support multi room viewing has to be suspect. TIVO obviously knows how to implement MRV. It is Cablelabs that will not approve TIVO to implement this feature. So, if Cablelabs won't let TIVO use it and still be Cablelabs compliant, then how is MOXI/Digeo going to get permission and still be Cablelabs compliant (remember the Multichannel Card is integral to the second box).

I have more faith in TIVO than I do with Digeo.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Tim N. said:


> ....
> 
> The MOXI claim to support multi room viewing has to be suspect. TIVO obviously knows how to implement MRV. It is Cablelabs that will not approve TIVO to implement this feature. So, if Cablelabs won't let TIVO use it and still be Cablelabs compliant, then how is MOXI/Digeo going to get permission and still be Cablelabs compliant (remember the Multichannel Card is integral to the second box).
> 
> .....


actually a client server model which sounds like the moxi flavor is easier to get approved than a peer-peer model like tivo.

cleint server streams where as peer to peer copies.

cable and the content people freak about copies and not so much about streams.

If I understnad correctly MS vista media center pc's with cablecards are allowed to stream to other MS clients but no copies are yet permitted.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

drew2k said:


> I like the idea of a "central server", but I see one big drawback. With multiple "full-blown" DVRs, each DVR has its own two dedicated tuners, so four DVRs can simultaneously record 8 programs. Will the central server be limited to just two tuners? Sure, you get a "central library", but .... you also get more recording conflicts ...


We totally need the ability to have one unit with a kabillion hard drives in it with MASSIVE storage...

then satellite units with "small" (cough.. "only" a couple hundred gigs) drives in them.. when they record, they record locally, to overcome any network issues..
Then (or possibly during, if it's fast enough), move the recording to the 'big server'.

This would also enable automagic cooperative scheduling. (Though in my perfect world, each recorder would get its own Season Pass list when the cooperative scheduling happened, so that it too would be more reliable in any network flakiness situation.)

I kind of can't believe Tivo hasn't sold something like this. Seems to me like the mothership could be essentially a TUNERLESS Tivo that just did MRV.. I'd pay lots for something like this... but not lots monthly. The 'server' would have to be single price IMHO.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Tim N. said:


> One of TIVO's greatest advantages is the grid display of what programming is available. This is another of TIVO's patented features that other companies do not mimic because it would require a license from TIVO. Comcast finally realized it is worth the license fee.


Huh what? I thought that the grid view was part of the reason it now says TV Guide on Tivos.. i.e. I thought it was a TV Guide thing, not a Tivo thing.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

mattack said:


> We totally need the ability to have one unit with a kabillion hard drives in it with MASSIVE storage...
> 
> then satellite units with "small" (cough.. "only" a couple hundred gigs) drives in them.. when they record, they record locally, to overcome any network issues..
> Then (or possibly during, if it's fast enough), move the recording to the 'big server'.
> ...


there's an old presentation from years ago from one of the tivo founding tech heads. If I remmebr correctly the original plan was client server but the hardware at the time was just too expensive to do so that's why the settled on peer to peer.


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## Tim N. (Apr 28, 2003)

mattack said:


> Huh what? I thought that the grid view was part of the reason it now says TV Guide on Tivos.. i.e. I thought it was a TV Guide thing, not a Tivo thing.


The Tivo guide shows more intelligently a list of channels on the left and a list of hourly programming for the selected channel on the right. The TV Guide versions on other STB's is far less helpful. The TV Guide web site might be the source of the programming information, but TIVO software makes it user friendly and useful.

Try finding what is on HD NBC next week at 4:30pm? The number of remote clicks required is long and tiresome. With the Tivo UI it is dramatically easier.

I am not sure if this is a patent issue or just a S/W copyright issue. Either way TIVO has the better answer than MOXI or any other cable STB.


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## Tim N. (Apr 28, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> actually a client server model which sounds like the moxi flavor is easier to get approved than a peer-peer model like tivo.
> 
> cleint server streams where as peer to peer copies.
> 
> ...


Okay, I need a quick tutorial on the difference between streaming video and copies? When something streams to my PC, can't I copy it to disk as a complete file? I need some help to understand this one.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Tim N. said:


> Okay, I need a quick tutorial on the difference between streaming video and copies? When something streams to my PC, can't I copy it to disk as a complete file? I need some help to understand this one.


Depends on the streamer. Some streamers are much more secure and not hacked yet.


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## Tim N. (Apr 28, 2003)

ah30k said:


> Depends on the streamer. Some streamers are much more secure and not hacked yet.


I'm not asking the question clearly. I don't know what "streaming" means?


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## wunderlin (Jun 6, 2007)

MoxiGuy said:


> I'm a paid representative of Digeo, but I do my best to keep my posts fact-based with opinions clearly labeled as such.


Hi MoxiGuy- good to see you over here!

I'm a non-paid owner of 3 Series 2 Tivos and 1 Moxi.

Before Moxi came out with their just-released 4,1 operating system, it was no match for Tivo, other than it could do HD and was relatively cheap when rented through the cable company.

I couldn't see spending $800 on an HD DVR when I had one that worked more or less... Its UI was agonizingly slow and its 80gig drive could only hold 6-7 hours of HD, but $800 was too much.

June 2007- Tivo effectively drops the price to $400 for a Series 3, so I pulled the plug and ordered one. The day after it arrived, Charter released the 4,1 update to the Moxi. The user interface went from molasses to lightning and external drive support was now enabled. I stuck a cheap external USB2 drive on the back and 20 minutes later had a 50 hour HD recorder that didn't suck any longer.

Tivo Series 3 was returned unopened to Amazon,com.

If the Series 3 had multi-room transfer and tivo2go enabled, I would have kept the Series 3 anyway. It feels like they're sitting on their hands at Tivo! I want it to succeed, but this latest edition of Moxi puts them right in the running. I'd say it's still 1 iteration behind as far as ease of use goes, but they've got their afterburners flaming and catching up to the sleeping hare called Tivo.

p.s. sorry about the commas in the post- this forum wouldn't let me submit with the periods because it thought it was a URL!


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## captain_video (Mar 1, 2002)

I saw the Digeo box in an issue of The Perfect Vision a few months back when they did their article on the CES in Vegas. I believe the model they talked about had a built-in DVD player and was capable of acting as a server for HD programming (not 100% sure on the HD part). It had dual tuners and was cablecard compatible. I tried to find more info on the Digeo website but there wasn't really anything there at the time. It sounded like it could definitely give Tivo a run for its money. The downside is that you also have to pay a monthly fee for the service, just like Tivo.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

gwsat said:


> This comes as no surprise. It appears that most of the folks who talk about how wonderful one DVR or another is and claim that the TiVo softwares reputation is overblown seem never to have owned a TiVo.


I have owned a Tivo before and I still won't buy one.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Tim N. said:


> I'm not asking the question clearly. I don't know what "streaming" means?


Streaming is receiving and then playing content byte by byte as it is received off the network without copying a version to the local machine first. For instance, sometimes I play content using RealPlayer which connects to a server and plays back content as it streams off the internet. Try as I might, I can't make a local copy of the file. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7858611 Granted, if you look for hacks on the internet there may be ways to make a copy. The idea is that you have a trusted app on the local machine and encrypt the stream so that only that app can play the content not allowing copies to be made.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

drew2k said:


> I like the idea of a "central server", but I see one big drawback. With multiple "full-blown" DVRs, each DVR has its own two dedicated tuners, so four DVRs can simultaneously record 8 programs. Will the central server be limited to just two tuners? Sure, you get a "central library", but .... you also get more recording conflicts ...


This is similar to Dish's ViP622, except you only have one second output, and it is SD only. If I were really in the market for a media server type of unit, I'd put an HTPC in my basement, with four tuners, and extenders in each room.

While multiple units do have the benefit of multiple tuners, if you want HD, then you have to watch a recorded show in the room with the DVR. As my experience with Cable DVRs go, it's a real pain to _have_ to go upstairs because both downstairs tuners were full and you had to record another show on another DVR.

This is why I love my ViP622 - no keeping track of what was recorded on what DVR. I don't mind the fact that my upstairs TV is SD only - all of the HD is downconverted, so I can watch everything in either location. Interestingly enough, since it has an RF modulator, you could theoretically diplex that signal and have a box in each location, with it's local content downconverted to the other location, so you could have the benefit of four to six tuners, and be able to access all of that content in either location.

Something I might do once I get a second 622.


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## captain_video (Mar 1, 2002)

> I have owned a Tivo before and I still won't buy one.


Which begs the question, why are you here?


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## mrmot (Aug 27, 2006)

MoxiGuy said:


> The other version uses multi-stream cableCARD. It's designed as a multi-room system where the main unit acts as a server and a client box connects to the TV in the second room. The key benefits of this approach are a) cost-saving compared to providing full systems in each room and b) a single directory of recorded shows means you never have to keep track of which programs are recorded where.


Hi MoxyGuy - thanks for posting info on the new boxes that Digeo plans to put out. They seem like they'd definitely be worth checking out! Do you happen to know if the cablecard enabled version of the retail box has the ability to order and view video on demand?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

mrmot said:


> Hi MoxyGuy - thanks for posting info on the new boxes that Digeo plans to put out. They seem like they'd definitely be worth checking out! Do you happen to know if the cablecard enabled version of the retail box has the ability to order and view video on demand?


not in a consumer version available at retail.

The FCC sucks and wont force a 2-way open standard so that 3rd party boxes have the ability to send information to the cable head-end to do anything. So there is not a single retail device that you can use to order PPV or VOD.

Moxi boxes got directly from the cable company will have the proprietary communication ability so the box CAN talk back to the head-end and order PPV or VOD etc.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Tim N. said:


> The Tivo guide shows more intelligently a list of channels on the left and a list of hourly programming for the selected channel on the right.


More intelligently, no; just more to your liking.

TiVo offers two guide styles. Unfortunately both use small typefaces and overly crowded pages. TiVo's grid style guide came from DirecTV. As an alternative to the 'live' guide TiVo's grid is actually worse because it doesn't show past programming.

Regarding appearance only, a number of EPG's look better than either of TiVo's styles. ReplayTV, MS's Foundation Edition and Ultimate TV, and the now defunct Starsight service all had guides more pleasant to view than TiVo's. Dishnetwork has the EPG with the largest typeface although not the most aesthetic.

ReplayTV could search for future showings of a listing directly from its EPG. Occasionally, depending on the particulars of a program's listing, TiVo didn't find an upcoming show from a search while other DVR's did.


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## rn701 (May 18, 2007)

As I mentioned previously, we just switched over from Moxi to TivoS3. The Moxi was OK (the only option for HD from Charter here), but I had the usual complaints. Slow and unresponsive UI, unintuitive channel guide, lack of recording space, especially for HD, lack of ability to manually record specific channel at a specific time. 

That last one was the most annoying. The County Commission budget hearing next Wednesday at 7PM on PEG channel 7 (for example) is not on the program guide, so how do I schedule it? When I schedule Daily Show and Colbert Report, I get three per day of each because they are not properly tagged, filling up the already tight space on the HD with reruns at different times. TiVo has this problem, too, because the shows aren't properly tagged, but I can manually schedule it to record Comedy Central at 11PM for 1 hour and get both shows in one recording. 

The lack of manual recording was a major flaw in Moxi and the final deal breaker for me. Is it fixed in 4.1? 

It sounds like the other complaints have been addressed, but then the local Charter outfit is slow to roll out updates and they won't support the networked features which are disabled, etc, etc.

(On the channel guide, an earlier poster mentions that by default Tivo's channel guide shows a list of channels on the left and on the right lists upcoming programs for the selected channel. This is essentially the same as Moxi, except Moxi has a bunch of unnecessary and goofy graphical gimmicks, and I hate it. Fortunately, Tivo lets you switch to a "grid" mode similar to what's in the newspaper, and that's more intuitive for me. But the point is, Tivo gives me the option. Moxi does not. And overall the Tivo is easier to operate with fewer clicks to watch or record shows, and much faster to get to and start showing a channel or a recording. Maybe all this is fixed in 4.1, too.)

The main benefit of the Moxi is that the monthly rental for the box and the program guide service is cheaper than the TiVo monthly service by itself, and there's no upfront cost to buy the Moxi box v. $800, no wait, $600, no wait, how about $400 for a limited time for the Tivo. And the Moxi is supported end-to-end by Charter, so you only have to deal with one vendor. 

But for at least one consumer, being rid of Moxi's problems and annoyances justified the extra cost of the Tivo S3 and hassles with the CableCARDs (but just barely at $400, no way at $800). 

Hope Moxi has better success with the 4.1 version.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> More intelligently, no; just more to your liking.
> 
> TiVo offers two guide styles. Unfortunately both use small typefaces and overly crowded pages. TiVo's grid style guide came from DirecTV. As an alternative to the 'live' guide TiVo's grid is actually worse because it doesn't show past programming.
> 
> ...


The username says it all, doesnt it?


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

captain_video said:


> Which begs the question, why are you here?


Does it really beg the question? You'd be surprised to know how many people on this forum don't have an active Tivo.

I joined when I had a Tivo. I got rid of it. I'm still a forum member, and there is no rule that says you have to have a Tivo to be a member.

Nice troll btw.


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## MoxiGuy (May 11, 2004)

rn701 said:


> As I mentioned previously, we just switched over from Moxi to TivoS3. The Moxi was OK (the only option for HD from Charter here), but I had the usual complaints... Hope Moxi has better success with the 4.1 version.


Thanks for the good wishes. And thanks for spelling out your issues and complaints. I think Moxi's new software meets the majority of them--but not your deal-breaker.

FYI: Here's where things stand on the issues you raise.

_Slow and unresponsive UI_... not any more. In fact, AVS Forum just had a post that now, it's too fast. (Never thought we'd hear that!) IMHO U-I responsiveness will quickly jump from being a frequently-voiced complaint to a key Moxi advantage. 
_Unintuitive channel guide_... this is a matter of opinion and preference... I get that many folks prefer something else, but Moxi rates highly on being easy and fast to learn. There are numerous posts on AVS Forum from folks who gave up their Moxi for a (cable) DVR with grid guide, and are now desperate to switch back.
_Lack of recording space_... 4.1 supports external drive expansion
_Lack of ability to manually record specific channel at a specific time_... added. Moxi 4.1 solves the Daily Show problem with a new "timeslots" preference.
_Lack of manual recording_... still MIA
_Channel guide_... still no grid guide, but the new version has a timesurfing feature that lets you easily advance the guide by 30-minute or 24-hour jumps. Lots of power with few clicks when you combine that with category filters to find, for example... movies tonight at 8:00pm, or sports next weekend. For many tasks it's much faster than a grid guide.
Other popular features in 4.1: 30-second skip; hard drive capacity meter; (I say "popular" because customers have called them out specifically in online forum and blog posts since the rollout began last Tuesday)

As you say, for many customers, it will be a matter of pricing and support--the cable deal is pretty attractive. But there's one other factor: as a cable offering, Moxi has the ability to browse and few On Demand programming. In fact, Moxi is the first U-I to unify On Demand and linear programs into the search feature.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

classicX said:


> Does it really beg the question? You'd be surprised to know how many people on this forum don't have an active Tivo.
> 
> I joined when I had a Tivo. I got rid of it. I'm still a forum member, and there is no rule that says you have to have a Tivo to be a member.
> 
> Nice troll btw.


Who exactly IS the troll here? Give us the gift to see ourselves as others see us, indeed.


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## riddick21 (Dec 12, 2006)

I really don't understand the people who criticize TiVo for anything besides price. If you have used a TiVo and think that the cable companies DVR is better in anything except price there is something wrong with you or your just looking to make trouble. When cost is taken out of the equation there is no better DVR on the market then a S3 Tivo, period.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Okay, now let's be fair. There are other things that some cable company DVRs do better than the TiVo Series 3.

First, integrated authentication is _plain-and-simple_ more reliable. That advantage is going to be short-lived, now, because starting on July 1, integrated authentication becomes contradicted.

Second: The cable company DVRs support On Demand, and won't have a problem with SDV, when that technology is deployed.

Third:

Uh.

Uh.

Uh.

Okay, well it's just the two advantages (and one of them is going to be history eventually). However, we really cannot say that the S3 is better in every single way... only just most of them, and for some of us, various factors, including these two, might be more important than all other factors combined.


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## riddick21 (Dec 12, 2006)

I never really understood the big deal with on demand. Isn't its purpose to be able to watch shows that you missed the first time they aired? Why would you need that when you have a TiVo. Also there's rarely anything good on PPV and when there is you can just call it in. And lastly the unbox downloads takes care of not being able to rent movies through VOD.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

riddick21 said:


> When cost is taken out of the equation there is no better DVR on the market then a S3 Tivo, period.


They apparently aren't features you want, but there are plenty of reasons I got another recorder to use *along* with my Tivos... (and in many ways I repeatedly say that it's a piece of crap, and I'm doing a 'hack' by replacing the DVD burner several years after I got the recorder).

I know you're specifically mentioning the S3, so I admit I'm not referring to the same thing you are.. but I would have greatly preferred the Tivo UI and features if I could get these things:
1) edit recordings
2) burn to DVD in multiple sessions

Since I can't, I got another recorder.. and often originally record on one of my Tivos and then 'save to VCR' to the other recorder's hard drive, edit, and burn to DVD. (Things that I know I'm going to burn to DVD, I more often record them natively on the other machine.)

Plus, there are PLENTY of criticisms of Tivo people have besides price -- no free space indicator, no cooperative scheduling, etc..

I say this as someone who is very much a fan of the Tivo UI in general, and bought an S3 (because of the lifetime transfer option).


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## riddick21 (Dec 12, 2006)

Don't get me wrong there are a ton of things TiVo can add but what I am saying is there are no competing DVR's to my knowledge that has a cooperative scheduling or even many of the features TiVo actually offers. I think for what's available now TiVo is definitely the best of the breed.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

riddick21 said:


> I really don't understand the people who criticize TiVo for anything besides price. If you have used a TiVo and think that the cable companies DVR is better in anything except price there is something wrong with you or your just looking to make trouble. When cost is taken out of the equation there is no better DVR on the market then a S3 Tivo, period.


TiVo is definitely the best product available for timeshifting. But timeshifting is only one function of a DVR.

Actually many of TiVo's features aren't DVR functions at all. (That's why TiVo is pitched as "more than a DVR".) And some of TiVo's most notable extra features aren't currently available on S3; even a basic line input. (I know the technical problems involved but there actually was a hi-def DVR produced w/two line inputs. Unfortunately that product has other shortcomings (including an incredible "Catch 22". Yet even it can be coaxed to work.)

But what does "better" mean if something works best at what it does but doesn't do what a user wants? I wish TiVo's EPG's (of both styles) looked "better" (had larger typefaces and looked less 'busy') and that sound from the currently playing program would continue when going into TiVo's innumerable menus. I wish it was possible to initiate a search right from TiVo's EPG, and that programs scheduled to be recorded were flagged in the EPG.

It's OK. There are compromises inherent when using any DVR. I put up with TiVo's idiosyncrasies because of its reliability and stability. I put up with other DVR's because they offer features that TiVo doesn't.

If only Comcast's upcoming MotoTiVo would combine the best features of iGuide with TiVo! Dream on; instead it'll probably offer (some) TiVo features presented with uniquely Moto handicaps!


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

riddick21 said:


> I never really understood the big deal with on demand. Isn't its purpose to be able to watch shows that you missed the first time they aired? Why would you need that when you have a TiVo. Also there's rarely anything good on PPV and when there is you can just call it in. And lastly the unbox downloads takes care of not being able to rent movies through VOD.


VOD consists of much more than missed shows. It's useful and enjoyable.

Some VOD is hi-def but Unbox doesn't even look as good as standard DVD's.

Why keep anything on a local HD when it doesn't have to be?

Lack of interactivity is a shortcoming of current CableCARD technology which requires awkward work-arounds at best.


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## MoxiGuy (May 11, 2004)

captain_video said:


> I saw the Digeo box in an issue of The Perfect Vision a few months back ... I tried to find more info on the Digeo website but there wasn't really anything there at the time. It sounded like it could definitely give Tivo a run for its money.


I expect additional details will be coming out soon. Yesterday, on AVS Forum, Digeo announced a "Meet Moxi" tour to take the upcoming retail products on a pre-launch roadshow. 


> *Meet Moxi Summer Tour*
> First off an introduction... given all the pent up demand for Moxi info we're seeing here and in other forums, I'm going to jump into the fray as an additional source to MoxiGuy. Like MoxiGuy, I can't promise to always give you the answer you are looking for, but if I have it, and I can share it, you'll get it (emphasis on *can*).
> 
> ... I'll be taking Moxi on the road for a Meet Moxi Summer Tour where you can get a sneak peak at our new line, and voice your opinions. If that weren't incentive enough, we'll even sign you up for a chance to win a new retail Moxi when they are available later this year.
> ...


 There will be additional events in South Carolina, LA, and other locations. The tour is being set up for current Moxi subscribers, but it will be open to anyone who signs up at http://www.moxi.com/meetmoxi/ .


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## ucliker (Sep 25, 2007)

+1 on there being no competition for Tivo. Ive used a couple different DVR's and some stand alone dvd recorders with hard drives and the one thing i learned is Tivo is the best hands down. A lot of people complain about Tivo in that theres a Subscription but in the end your just paying for reliability and when it comes to home entertainment would you rather pay for something that might work or for something thats proven to work.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

riddick21 said:


> If you have used a TiVo and think that the cable companies DVR is better in anything except price there is something wrong with you or your just looking to make trouble. When cost is taken out of the equation there is no better DVR on the market then a S3 Tivo, period.


thank you very much for a well thought-out, fact-driven and objective conclusion based on nothing but sound reasoning.

now, there is no need to have a debate on this. peace will be down on the galaxy!



really, if you haven't figured out that people are diverse and their needs are diverse, you probably should go back and watch more TV (preferrably on your TiVo), 



> what I am saying is there are no competing DVR's to my knowledge that has a cooperative scheduling or even many of the features TiVo actually offers.


and there is no competing DVRs that offer a TiVo logo or all the (mal)functions of TiVo!

if you define the market / competition narrow enough, you will always have market dominance.

That's where a firm's path to nowhere starts.


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## teasip (Aug 24, 2002)

From the perspective of a former TiVo/DirecTiVo owner who now has the FiOS Moto DVR, I would love to pull the trigger on a standalone TiVo DVR (HD/S3). Funds are there, I have access to purchase one within a 15" time window, and I'm ready to purchase. So why haven't I? Several reasons. One, video signal loss issues, signal attenuation issues presumably due to too hot of a signal (I've actually purchased the attenuators within the past week), CC compatibility issues (hit/miss it seems), and potential HDMI issues. With the Verizon DVR (heaven knows I'm not a big fan of their IMG), even with its' own faults, I don't have signal loss. At this point until there is a clear winner I'll stay put (until the wind blows the other direction and its' a Tuesday and the stars are in alignment).


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

> At this point until there is a clear winner I'll stay put (until the wind blows the other direction and its' a Tuesday and the stars are in alignment).


you and millions of other cableco DVR users are fine examples of TiVo competition that some TiVo devotees insist on not existing and not seeing.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

The market is big enough for TiVo to make a profit even with competition from mass-market cable and satellite DVR's. 

TiVo's HDTiVo actually approaches mass-market status (at least theoretically - I don't know the current sales/sub stats) because it offers high quality hardware at a low price with TiVo Service priced lower than some competitors' DVR monthly rentals.


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## d_anders (Oct 12, 2000)

TiVo Troll said:


> The market is big enough for TiVo to make a profit even with competition from mass-market cable and satellite DVR's.
> 
> TiVo's HDTiVo actually approaches mass-market status (at least theoretically - I don't know the current sales/sub stats) because it offers high quality hardware at a low price with TiVo Service priced lower than some competitors' DVR monthly rentals.


Not really. Cable Card Fees, plus HD Service Fees, added to the cost of my monthly fee to Tivo is greater than what Comcast will charge me for their DVR. For a superior DVR, I'm willing to pay it...but not all other folks are.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

qili said:


> you and millions of other cableco DVR users are fine examples of TiVo competition that some TiVo devotees insist on not existing and not seeing.


this thread started a while back based on the Moxi being a possible standalone DVR competitor and thus on the same playing field as TiVo. It was not started to look at all possible competitors in the DVR market. Cable company DVRs have their obvious selling points that are not hard to see but their selling points have stayed the same save for the reliability and quality of the cable co DVRs has risen over time.

TiVo now is HD capable with two tuners and the Moxi was looked forward to as the next competitor with HD and dual tuner and other features more closely aligned with a TiVo feature set. Unfortunately 5the Moxi has run into some issues and we do not get to see some more head to head competition and how Moxi might approach selling their DVR. It would be good to see some new blood in the market


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TiVo Troll said:


> The market is big enough for TiVo to make a profit even with competition from mass-market cable and satellite DVR's.


There is no reason to believe that the market is big enough for _anyone _to make a profit in this space, at least not until the cost to provide the device and service on it drops significantly.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Perhaps, but by no means a sure thing. 

Current concerns about SDV affect potential profitability, but, IMHO, are likely to be resolved before profitability is adversly affected. 

(Somehow, these Forums often seem to reflect a 'sky is falling' mentality!)


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

"TiVo Service (is) priced lower than some competitors' DVR monthly rentals."



d_anders said:


> Not really. Cable Card Fees, plus HD Service Fees, added to the cost of my monthly fee to Tivo is greater than what Comcast will charge me for their DVR. For a superior DVR, I'm willing to pay it...but not all other folks are.


The key word is 'some'.

AFAIK, in my area a customer gets a standard-def digital STB w/iGuide (which provides an excellent EPG) plus VOD, at no extra charge, with any of Comcast's digital packages. A hi-def service fee is charged for hi-def STB's, but not DVR's. (Go figure!)

If a customer has one HDTiVo in addition to the standard-def digital STB Comcast charges nothing extra for an 'M' card and nothing for HD service.

If a customer chooses Comcast's dual tuner hi-def DVR there is no extra charge either.

Comcast charges $13.95 monthly for DVR service; TiVo $12.95. (Prepaid TiVo Service is less.)

If a customer has more than one DVR (or STB), whether Comcast's Motos or TiVo(s) w/CC(s), Comcast charges $5.10 monthly as an _Additional Outlet Fee_ for each after the first. (Yeah, Comcast's billing is confusing!)

(I will be checking this week at the local Comcast store to verify exactly how Comcast charges for TiVo's requiring two CC's. I currently have a second S3 w/o CC which incurs no charges from Comcast. I'd like to set it up with two 'S' cards, and then return one, for full TiVo Service on OTA and Limited Basic channels only. For $1.79 monthly it would be worth it; for $5.10 no.)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TiVo Troll said:


> Perhaps, but by no means a sure thing. Current concerns about SDV affect potential profitability, but, IMHO, are likely to be resolved before profitability is adversly affected.


Well, you had the advantage of entering your reply after the press release was released. 

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/s...11-26-2007/0004711019&EDATE=#linktopagebottom

TiVo's prospects for someday achieving profitability have shot up this morning.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Isn't TiVo currently profitable?

Thanks for the link. I'm not surprised. But until you posted it I hadn't seen the press release, just *this*.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

No, TiVo isn't currently profitable. They've only shown a profit one quarter in their entire history.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

So I've been wrong in all the recent posts I've made stating that TiVo is now profitable? Especially *here*: 
"TiVo, the last remaining standalone DVR company, has succeeded in producing an interesting, useful product which actually makes a profit, even if all its users don't use all of TiVo's features! That's more than ReplayTV did!"

I thought TiVo had already turned that corner. I'll be very surprised if they don't.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

What I don't understand is why you didn't go over to that thread you posted the erroneous information in and correct it.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

The bottom line is, everyone's opinion of Tivo being the best is subjective.

For a time, I also believed Tivo to be the best, but not anymore. I believe the Dish ViP622/722 HDDVR units to be superior to the Tivo Series3 unit in nearly every aspect (yes, including user interface), even though it's not a "standalone" system.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

classicX said:


> The bottom line is, everyone's opinion of Tivo being the best is subjective.


I disagree because riddick21 said otherwise based on no facts, no logic reasoning and no rationale.

whatever riddick21 said should be deemed the laws of the universe (and other universes too).



Unfortunately, this forum is too sophisticated at times for things this simple.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

bicker said:


> What I don't understand is why you didn't go over to that thread you posted the erroneous information in and correct it.


The reason I didn't is that that wasn't the only post in which I claimed that TiVo already is profitable. Nobody called me on it before. My post above corrected the error for the record. And now *here* too!


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