# FIOS or Wait for HR10-250 6.3 Upgrade?



## abjrjrm (Nov 13, 2005)

OK - I now have the choice. Plus I see the FIOS in So. Cal. has more HD channels than D*.

Overall, I can save $32.00 a month by switching to Fios. The only downside I see is being stuck with one HR10-250 and six D* set tops.

What would you do???


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Take 6.3 for the HR10-250 out of the equation... as it is going to be nice when it gets here... it has no bearing on your root issue:

The Provider:

DirecTV's HD content is pretty much set for the rest of 2006... You are not going to much (if any) until 2007.

So from a Receiver point of view: HR10-250 or the HR20 (When it is released), or what ever is available for your Fios

But the Content seems to be what you are most intrested in...
Is there something glaring on that FIOS offering that you want Today? Or would you be willing to wait to see what DirecTV offers in 2007?

There is a market for teh HR10's... and depending on what you other boxes are... there is a market for those as well.


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## teasip (Aug 24, 2002)

I'll let you know. I'm about to make the plunge with their Premier package (no add-ons) with 2 DVR's next Friday.


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

Go with FIOS!!! Man I wish I had the choice here. It's really a no brainer for most people. I bet you will be blown away by the difference in PQ and the selection of HD will only increase as time goes on. Couple that with the fact that you will likely be able to use the ne wTivo Series 3 with it you should be looking good with FIOS.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

From the posts so far, it sounds as if one could jettison DTV and go FIOS, and still use the HR10? I don't see how.


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## teasip (Aug 24, 2002)

I don't think so unless you're using it as a ATSC decoder only for another television. Once I'm up and running with FiOS and accepting of their DVR my HR10-250 will appear on eBay. They have just released a DVR with MRV assuming that you have a Windows based computer system.


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## JaserLet (Dec 13, 2005)

How does FIOS handle video? Do they just give you a coax jack at the box and regular digital cable DVRs? Or is it something totally different and/or works with a PC/Mac? It would be sweet if I could just capture and manage the digital cable straight to my computer over the ethernet instead of dealing with coax and tuners and such.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Verizon FiOS is $79.90 for 200 digital channels and 5Mbps Internet (with 2Mbps upstream). That includes the cost of a SD box if you subscribe for a year, but does not include the cost of the HDTV DVR, which is $12.99/mo. In some markets, the 5Mbps Internet plan has been upgraded to 10Mbps and the 15Mbps plan has been upgraded to 20Mbps, at no extra charge.

On FiOS, channel numbers 0-50 (actually about 15-25 channels) are used for analog transmission of the local networks and public interest stations. Everything else -- including all cable channels -- is digital. It functions similarly to a cable provider in the home, in that you need set-top boxes to receive the digital cable channels. It differs from existing cable providers in that it is a fiber infrastructure -- which gives them far more capacity -- and they use IPTV for guide data and VOD. That means guide data and VOD is delivered over IP.

Here's the typical FIOS channel lineup.

Verizon just introduced a multiroom software upgrade to the HDTV DVR which allows you to access its recordings on the non-DVR boxes, but they want $19.99/mo for the HDTV DVR with that functionality. The DVR is still limited to 160Gb capacity; the box has a SATA port but it is non-functional.

Screenshots of the Verizon FiOS DVR Interface


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Will just add the FiOS will work with the Series3 when it is out -- with regard to CableCards, FiOS charges $2.95 per television outlet.


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## JaserLet (Dec 13, 2005)

Cool how they can still pass some analog data.

But I'm still curious: how does the data get from the FIOS demarc box on your house to the set-top box on your TV? Is it a fiberoptic, coax, or ethernet cable that connects to the set-top cable/dvr box?

I've seen photos of the FIOS demarc box. It has a built-in backup battery. Its "input" is the fiberoptic cable from the street. Its "outputs" are connections for analog telephones, an ethernet jack, and a coax jack. I know regular old phones connect to the analog phone connections. I know the ethernet is used for internet access. I assume the coax jack is used for at least the analog channels. But how does the digital cable/dvr box connect? Does it use ethernet, does it plug into your home network? Or does it use coax?


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## scerruti (Jul 11, 2002)

I have FIOS TV and Internet. The STBs are connected via coax. The coax is connected both to the ONT (the outside box where the fiber is terminated) and to the Actiontec router used for the Internet service. The STB are provided IP addresses by the router and program guide data and on demand programming is delivered via the router. Data is passed over the coax using MoCA, a protocol for Internet over coax.

I do not know how TV installations without Internet are handled. 

When I added TV to my Internet service they replaced the previously provided D-Link router.


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## teasip (Aug 24, 2002)

Already beat to the punch.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Jaserlet,

The STBs and DVR use coax. The supplied Actiontec router has built-in MoCA (networking over coax). Verizon runs both a coax feed and a cat5 network cable from the ONT installed outside your home (or in your basement) to the router. The router assigns each STB and DVR in your home an IP address. Whenever your STB or DVR requests guide data or a VOD program stream, this is routed to the appropriate box by the Actiontec router.

Screenshot of Actiontec router from FiOS


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> That being said, should I elect to obtain a S3 TiVo then I will most likely need to leave that second line in place assuming that it will be a dual tuner setup like the HR10-250.


The Tivo Series3 just has two inputs, one for OTA and one for cable. The signal is split internally, so you don't need a second line as you do with the HR10-250.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

scerruti said:


> I have FIOS TV and Internet. The STBs are connected via coax...


So apparently, the video distribution is done by conventional analog RF distribution, which should work pretty well, even for HD.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> ...Here's the typical FIOS channel lineup...


None of those channels appear to be HD


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## teasip (Aug 24, 2002)

bkdtv, if you will please clarify for me. They will obviously need access to a coax cable from the ONT to the router (just like the Cat 5 is currently doing). I currently have a coax cable in the room where my D-Link router is at (though it is attached to an attic antenna at the moment, separate from my 1:1 DirecTV lines in the house). However they get the coax from the ONT to the router, what happens at that point? In other words, how does the signal pass to the other TV's/STB's from the ActionTec? If it is done via the in-house coax cables then wouldn't I need a second coax line in the room with the router to send the signal back to a splitter or somesuch (one coax incoming from ONT and one coax leaving from router to splitter)?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> None of those channels appear to be HD


Look again. 

All the HD channels start at channel 800.

0-49 - analog locals and public interest channels
50-430 - digital cable channels (english)
440-478 - spanish-language channels
480-499 - international premium channels
500-589 - digital cable channels (spanish)
600-646 - music channels
801-835 - hdtv channels

Note you can remove whatever channels you don't want from the guide, as on a Tivo.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> Look again.  ...


Oh sh!t! There's a whole second page! Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> bkdtv, if you will please clarify for me. They will obviously need access to a coax cable from the ONT to the router (just like the Cat 5 is currently doing). I currently have a coax cable in the room where my D-Link router is at (though it is attached to an attic antenna at the moment, separate from my 1:1 DirecTV lines in the house). However they get the coax from the ONT to the router, what happens at that point? In other words, how does the signal pass to the other TV's/STB's from the ActionTec? If it is done via the in-house coax cables then wouldn't I need a second coax line in the room with the router to send the signal back to a splitter or somesuch (one coax incoming from ONT and one coax leaving from router to splitter)?


You'll have:
 One network cable and one coax cable from the ONT outside (or in the basement) to the Actiontec router.
 One coax cable from the ONT split to feed all the TVs in your home. IIRC, Verizon will run coax to four TVs at no cost, if you need it.
For guide data and VOID, the signal goes from the TVs to to the ONT outside, and then to the router via coax. The router sends return data back via ethernet to the ONT, where it is put back on the coax to the TVs. Ultimately, Verizon will use ONTs with full support for MoCA networking over coax), eliminating the need to run the ethernet CAT5 cable to the router, but that solution is not yet available.


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## teasip (Aug 24, 2002)

OK, so I will need two coax runs to the room with the router (one pre-existing, one additional). One dedicated to the router itself, then a second for either an antenna hookup as currently exists or else to attach to the FiOS TV network with the TV that is sitting next to the router. Thanks for the clarification.


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## whsbuss (Dec 16, 2002)

I will opt for Verizon FiOS when its available so I can get local sports via Comcast Sportsnet in the Philly market. I've been without it since 1998 when I switched to D*


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## thebishman (Aug 20, 2005)

Based on reports of the markedly better SD and HD quality alone, I would switch to FIOS tomorrow were it available to me. Saving money would be an added bonus.
Bish


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

I don't see any "wishlist" type capability - where you can tell the FIOS DVR to automatically record a certain actor, title or keyword. As far as I can tell, you can only SEARCH on Title and Keyword (or Catagory), but you can not set up recordings when the search does not yeild results. Is this correct?

Also, I don't even see an actor search. Will an actors name work in a keyword search?

Jim H.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

Also - is there a way to find out what my current commitment (time) is with DTV and what my penalty would be is I cancelled service?


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## kkluba (Oct 18, 2002)

I find all the FIOS stuffing intriguing and frustrating since it isn't in my area yet and I don't know when or if it will be.

Questions:

** Has anyone measured bandwidth of video both SD and HD?

** What are the FIOS system limits? Will it become bandwidth starved as D* has?

** How is the reliablility? Any issues?

I'm looking at all options in replacing D*. IPTV is supposed to be rolled out in my area soon. I'm generally happy with D* but when I joined the satellite revolution 11 years ago it was a superior picture and unhappiness with cable that drove me there. 11 years later I see role reversal - D* is not the best picture anymore and has bandwidth issues like the cable co's used to. 

Always looking for something better....


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## JaserLet (Dec 13, 2005)

I can't speak for the exact current FIOS implementation, but I do know that they run a pair of fiber to each home. Fiber can currently support 10 gigabit speeds with the proper hardware on each end. I would say that FIOS has an excellent upgrade path in the future.

How its actually implemented is another story.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> ** What are the FIOS system limits? Will it become bandwidth starved as D* has?


FiOS has seemingly endless capacity.

For now, Verizon is devoting about 850MHz to one-way FiOS video services. Other cable operators have 750-850MHz bandwidth on their most modern systems, but they divide that bandwidth between video, Internet and voice services. In contrast, FiOS has a completely separate optical stream dedicated to Internet, VOD/PPV, and voice services; this is based on BPON technology, which provides 622Mbps shared by 32 users. They've just begun to upgrade their systems from BPON to GPON, which will increase downstream bandwidth to 2.4Gbps and upstream bandwidth to 1.2Gbps, shared by 32-64 users.

FiOS also makes better use of the allocated 850MHz spectrum because they only put 15-20 analog channels on their system (each analog channel consumes 6MHz) for the local networks and public interest stations. Everything else -- including every cable channel --- is digital. Compare that to other cable systems that carry 60 to 90+ analog channels.

For every 6MHz, a cable provider can derive ~38Mbps with 256QAM modulation. Subtract out those 90 analog channels (at 6Mhz each) on Comcast and they have just 210MHz remaining on their typical 750MHz system -- using 256QAM, that translates into just 1.344Gbps downstream to divide between digital cable channels, VOD/PPV, and Internet service. Contrast that to FiOS -- they still have 760MHz left of their 850MHz bandwidth for one-way TV services after subtracting out their ~15 analog channels -- using 256QAM, that translates into about 5.4Gbps for digital SD and HD channels.

SD channels typically run 2.5Mbps to 4Mbps. The movie channels like HBO HDTV consume a maximum of 13-14Mbps. No HD channel available anywhere consumes more than 19Mbps. Verizon has 5.4Gbps or so available for TV in most markets. You do the math. 

VOD and PPV don't consume any of that bandwidth because Verizon uses IPTV (their BPON network) for those.


> ** How is the reliablility? Any issues?


Their infrastructure offers greater reliability than traditional copper systems, which tend to be more reliable than satellite.


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## kkluba (Oct 18, 2002)

Lasrejet - I figured it about the same. I was hoping one the FIOS gurus might weigh with data. Also just because there are these big pipes doesn't mean they don't throttle back the stream... but having never seen it or read much about it I just don't know.


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## endyii (Aug 14, 2006)

Thought I would chime in.... 

I just converted over from direct TV to Fios TV this last Friday. I have had fios internet for a couple months now.

The Good - 
- The upload and download speeds for internet are basically right on what I signed up for 
- I signed up for all packages but the international and sports packages and get everything that DirecTV had and a lot more for less money then DirecTV including 1 DVR, 1 HD, and 1 SD set tops.... something like 60 premium movie channels
- The signal quality is as good or better then DirecTV for SD and HD, but that does not mean there are some artifacts. 
- I missed VOD when I switch to DirecTV and happy to have it back. Its nice to get access to all the premium movie channel series and movies. 
- Record 2 HD shows at the same time without having to cough up a large down payment on set top box from DirecTV.
- About double the HD channels
- I can get all the local HD channels now, some I just could not get, or I had to move my antenna around to get others
- Cable Cards so I can get Tivo V3 when it comes out
- Rain/Storms does not screw with my signal, which really just started getting bad the last year for some reason

The Bad - 
- I dont get my ReplyTV commercial advance...... and its a big one for me, I have purchased Tivos for family members after ReplayTV removed this feature.
- DVR FF, RW speed steps are too fast, they should have smaller increments
- The record Series options are a little cludgey. You set them then select series record, its hard to explain but it does work.
- Not enough channels displayed on the grid, not huge just would be nice to have a few more channel lines.
- Can not set STB to display all content in 1080i etc. So I do get rid the annoying flicker when going between SD to HD and back again


Its just been a few days, but I the pros still outweigh the cons....


On speed..... its fiber they can increase bandwidth for years and years by adding more laser colors (addtional frequencies...)


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

Is it offical that Verizon TV will 100% be compatible/work with Tivo Series 3? Cause if that is the case I might seriously have to reconsider my provider when they release it.


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## slocko (Mar 5, 2004)

for me the biggest drawback keeping me from getting FIOS TV, even though it became available about 2 months ago in my area, is the size of the hard drive. Pretty much 95 % of what I record is HD. 160 gig drive is no where big enuff.


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

The only WAY I would consider going to Verizon TV is if a TIVO series 3 was part of the switch. Otherwise I would rather stick it out as long as I can with Direct and their Tivos.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

whsbuss said:


> I will opt for Verizon FiOS when its available so I can get local sports via Comcast Sportsnet in the Philly market. I've been without it since 1998 when I switched to D*


dont bet on comcast selling their _PHILLY _ RSN's to FIOS. Hell might freeze over first...

_edit: found the confusion- I left out the word "philly" - added that in. _


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> dont bet on comcast selling their RSN's to FIOS. Hell might freeze over first...


Well... I said the same thing about DirecTV getting access to them as well.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I say switch to FIOS service, but leave the dish on the roof. That way, even if you enjoy FIOS for a year, if in 2007, DirecTV really does get their act together and offer a whole new slate of HD and an HD DVR which is reliable (the reliability issue I believe will make or break DirecTVs plans), then you can easily switch back to them.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> dont bet on comcast selling their RSN's to FIOS. Hell might freeze over first...


They already carry 'em, just as other cable providers do. FCC rules don't allow them to withhold these channels.

FiOS does provide CableCards for $2.95/mo per TV, so they do support Series3.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Well... I said the same thing about DirecTV getting access to them as well.


so directv carries the PHILLY comcast RSN now?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> They already carry 'em, just as other cable providers do. FCC rules don't allow them to withhold these channels.
> 
> FiOS does provide CableCards for $2.95/mo per TV, so they do support Series3.


fios in the PHILLY market has the comcast RSN?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> fios in the PHILLY market has the comcast RSN?


I wasn't aware that FiOS was available in Philly.

They do carry Comcast's RSN in the DC/VA/MD markets.

Based on this article, it does sound like Comcast could deny CSN to FiOS in Philadelphia.


> This order is significant for RCN, said a company source, because, "in every market, including Pennsylvania for us, Comcast cannot use the terrestrial loophole to deny regional sports programming, nor can they enter into exclusive contracts for sports programming and we have the right to arbitrate. So, not only are we grandfathered for RSN access in Pennsylvania, but we have the right to arbitrate.Comcast can still use the terrestrial loophole to deny access to the satellite companies and Verizon, but not us."
> 
> The decision does close the terrestrial loophole for regional sports networks, which means that program access rules will now apply to landline-delivered RSNs, except those not grandfathered in Philly. Previously, they only applied to satellite-delivered programming. "The conditions apply regardless of the means of delivery," the FCC said. "Terrestrial means are included."


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

FIOS might be availible in the philly market (if not yet it will be by year end as Verizon got a statewide franchise in NJ and I believe will start video in November- much of south Jersey is in the philly market).

And in most markets Comsast is forced by law, regulation, or ruling, to offer their RSN's to others.

But as you found in the article above- Comcast apparently bought Arlen Spector a boat or something. SO all attempts to force comcast to share there Philly RSN(s) with competitors have been stopped. They have repeatedly been given outs in regards to the philly market. 

(although it looks like perhaps RCN bribed their pols with a larger boat....)

(rupert and ivan (the VZ dude) dont seem to have any pull....)


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> FIOS might be availible in the philly market (if not yet it will be by year end as Verizon got a statewide franchise in NJ and I believe will start video in November- much of south Jersey is in the philly market).
> 
> And in most markets Comsast is forced by law, regulation, or ruling, to offer their RSN's to others.
> 
> ...


The Phils, or Eagles just need to start their own Network and force Comcast to buy programming from them, like the Orioles just did with MASN in Baltimore/Washington. It's the classic "I'm taking my ball and going home" technique, but it's got Comcast scrambling.


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## Watrat (Feb 28, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> They already carry 'em, just as other cable providers do. FCC rules don't allow them to withhold these channels.
> 
> FiOS does provide CableCards for $2.95/mo per TV, so they do support Series3.


Just wondering..will the Tivo Series 3 allow for dual recording at the same time..or record one thing while watching something else?

Thanks


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Just wondering..will the Tivo Series 3 allow for dual recording at the same time..or record one thing while watching something else?


Yes, it will support both.


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## Watrat (Feb 28, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> Yes, it will support both.


Thanks very much!


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## Ed Campbell (Jul 13, 2002)

FIOS announcement, today, doesn't look like too much to write home about.

http://www.electronichouse.com/columns/products/14586.html

Not even up to allowing DRM, yet. So, what's the advantage?


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## RossoNeri (Nov 26, 2005)

AFAIK, FiOS is a QAM encode RF signal muxed on to the fiber with their data stream. The ONT pull the RF signal out and it is delivered via coax to the STB. Allegedly, the S3 will work with FiOS b/c FiOS is supposed to support CC. As with all things CC, support is a word that has different definitions to the providers...

Bottom line: until the S3 is available, no telling how successfull it will be with FiOS.


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## RossoNeri (Nov 26, 2005)

No. Comcast only allows the Philly CSN RSN to be carried on it's own systems. No sat or other cable provider can carry them. Since Comcast owns the Flyers and Sixers, I doubt that even Satan wearing a parka will be able to get Philly CSN on FiOS/D*/E*/etc...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

stiffi said:


> The Phils, or Eagles just need to start their own Network and force Comcast to buy programming from them, like the Orioles just did with MASN in Baltimore/Washington. It's the classic "I'm taking my ball and going home" technique, but it's got Comcast scrambling.


problem is...

guess who owns 2 of the 3 philly sports teams on the RSN? (flyers and 76ers)

Comcast does. They have a verticle monopoly (or whatever you call it) and they ABUSE it with tacit approval of the government. It has no effect on me- I'm no philly sports fan- but it is rather disgusting.

I cant figure out why the phillies owners put up with it- except they seem to be totally incompetent (there's a pile of web sites and petitions begging the current ownership to sell)

Arlen Spector must have some big boat...


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## RossoNeri (Nov 26, 2005)

As of 24 July 2006 they do NOT allow anyone else to carry Philly CSN RSN.

The following article outlines how Congress and FCC got involved to settle Comcast/MASN dispute over Orioles owned MASN, but Comcast is still allowed to block CSN-Philly from other providers.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/15107315.htm


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## RossoNeri (Nov 26, 2005)

Here are some factors helping Comcast:

1) The Eagles, like every other NFL team, don't play on an RSN but on one of the networks that have NFL rights.

2) The Phillies are idiots.

3) The Flyers and Sixers are owned by Comcast.

4) Philadelphia is a sports crazy town. They'll grumble, but it's not like they're not going to watch.

5) Comcast OWNS Philadelphia. All they have to say is "We're moving out of the City and taking our wage tax revenue with us." and City Council will roll over.

It sucks, but David doesn't always beat Goliath.


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

The Sixers may be sold: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2540136


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

RossoNeri said:


> Here are some factors helping Comcast:
> 
> 1) The Eagles, like every other NFL team, don't play on an RSN but on one of the networks that have NFL rights.
> 
> ...


#2


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dmon4u said:


> The Sixers may be sold: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2540136


but while comcast still owns them they will probably sign a 20 year deal with the RSN at some stupid terms...


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