# Series 3 & Comcast...Your Lifetime Ends 11/17/15



## CAOgdin2 (Oct 4, 2014)

I received a letter today from Comcast; if you are a Comcast customer you will receive on too. It says their move to MPEG-4 will leave you without cable service on Series 3 TiVo products from November 17th, 2015.

TiVo's Response: Buy a new Roamio, _sucker!_

TiVo is going to leave Series 3 customers connected to Comcast with no service, and they make you the following offer: Buy a new Roamio Basic ($200) and "Lifetime Service" ($200). So, for Series 3 customers your "Lifetime Service" was for the "Lifetime" of the Series 3 line, not for (what you thought was) _your_ lifetime.

The techsupport folks are nice, but they're touting the party line: "You can still use it for everything *else*!" and "Comcast is changing the Cablecard rules".

What this really is: Comcast is changing the format of the signal sent out to their customers on 11/17/15 (in my neighborhood; yours may have a different date)...what we geeks call the "protocol." TiVo is saying it's not worth it to keep its' Lifetime Customers who live in Comcast territory by just updating the protocol software on the Series 3 box. Instead, they use it as a *Sales Opportunity*, to abandon their lifetime service you paid for, in the hopes of garnering more revenue through "up-selling"..._Suckers!_

This is about as bone-headed a move as Volkswagen's long-term violation of EPA emission standards on their diesel vehicles, and will have the same effect: The market void can be filled by new entrants who can capitalize on their selfishness by changing the rules. The first rule always needs to be Integrity. TiVo has none, and it shows in their sweet-sounding, pleasant "Screw You!" to all Series 3 owners.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

TiVo is offering people with older equipment excellent deals on Roamios with lifetime service. You can get a 4-tuner Roamio for $400 or a 6-tuner Roamio Plus for $450. You can probably sell your old Series 3 on ebay for $200 to help defray the costs. Or you could go with an X1 from Comcast or you can always cut the cord and go OTA only with your Series 3. But please stop whining about your 8 year old technology becoming outdated. That's longer than a lot of consumer electronics last these days. I'd say you got more than your money's worth out of it.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

TiVo is very clear that "lifetime" is "product lifetime", not "owner lifetime". They got zinged on this with the Series 1 and thus allowed early Series 1 owners do a one-time transfer to a newer model. 

I am not 100% sure about this, but I think the hardware on the Series 3 does not have an MPEG-4 decoder. (CORRECTED by tarheelblue32: The hardware is there, but TiVo decided not to update the software.)


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

CharlesH said:


> I am not 100% sure about this, but I think the hardware on the Series 3 does not have an MPEG-4 decoder.


This has been discussed on the forum before and the Series 3 hardware would be capable of decoding MPEG-4 with a software update. But TiVo is under no obligation to push such an update and they aren't going to.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> TiVo is offering people with older equipment excellent deals on Roamios with lifetime service. You can get a 4-tuner Roamio for $400 or a 6-tuner Roamio Plus for $450. You can probably sell your old Series 3 on ebay for $200 to help defray the costs. Or you could go with an X1 from Comcast or you can always cut the cord and go OTA only with your Series 3. But please stop whining about your 8 year old technology becoming outdated. That's longer than a lot of consumer electronics last these days. I'd say you got more than your money's worth out of it.


I would guess at this point he would be very lucky to net $150 on a lifetime series 3 sale, probably more like $100. I have been unable to sell a TiVoHD on Craigslist for $150, been listed and relisted for months. No complaints here, my TiVoHDs have been problem free for a long time but of course I would have been delighted if the TiVoHD had been updated to handle MPEG-4.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

This is kinda old news since Comcast initially made the joint announcement with TiVo back in November 2014. Even before this, Verizon FiOS had been moving over to MPEG4 years earlier. TiVo even was sending out emails to affected customers with special sales on moving to an MPEG4 compatible device such as Premiere's and Roamio's.


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## Jrr6415sun (Mar 31, 2006)

tarheelblue32 said:


> TiVo is offering people with older equipment excellent deals on Roamios with lifetime service. You can get a 4-tuner Roamio for $400 or a 6-tuner Roamio Plus for $450. You can probably sell your old Series 3 on ebay for $200 to help defray the costs. Or you could go with an X1 from Comcast or you can always cut the cord and go OTA only with your Series 3. But please stop whining about your 8 year old technology becoming outdated. That's longer than a lot of consumer electronics last these days. I'd say you got more than your money's worth out of it.


what's the point of offering "lifetime" if it's only 8 years or less? That is false advertising.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Jrr6415sun said:


> what's the point of offering "lifetime" if it's only 8 years or less? That is false advertising.


People like you are why they had to change the name to "all in".


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

I didn't get to turn my tube TV in for a plasma when my cableco killed analog. Life sucks.

If someone wants to run a box into the ground until it's oil, that's their prerogative. But Tivo has no obligation (or ever advertised) to offer handouts at a big loss or guarantee support for changing technologies in infinite perpetuity.

Tivo's done their part offering a compatible box for the last 5 and a half years with lots of good offers along the way.

Brace yourself in advance.... Don't be shocked if more boxes are obsoleted by cable switching to HEVC or IP over the next decade.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

CAOgdin2 said:


> I received a letter today from Comcast; if you are a Comcast customer you will receive on too. It says their move to MPEG-4 will leave you without cable service on Series 3 TiVo products from November 17th, 2015.
> ...
> Comcast is changing the format of the signal sent out to their customers on 11/17/15 (in my neighborhood; yours may have a different date)...what we geeks call the "protocol." TiVo is saying it's not worth it to keep its' Lifetime Customers who live in Comcast territory by just updating the protocol software on the Series 3 box. Instead, they use it as a *Sales Opportunity*, to abandon their lifetime service you paid for, in the hopes of garnering more revenue through "up-selling"..._Suckers!_


This is news to me. I'm on Comcast and using a CableCARD w/my TiVo HD but haven't received any letter but will now need to look into this.

I am surprised to hear the Series 3 (and/or TiVo HD) even have MPEG-4 hardware decoding capability.

Remember, lifetimed TiVos are no longer bringing in revenue and long ago, TiVo used to spread (and recognize) lifetime subs over a 4 year period. Not sure what this is anymore. If it's 4 years, mine is past that.

TiVo I'm sure knows how many Series 3 and HDs are still on active subscriptions and probably how many are affected by this change. If in fact the hardware can do it, but they choose not to make the software updates, then they made a business decision. It may not be worth it for them, esp. in internal projections of units going out of service, when areas will go MPEG-4, etc.


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## LoneWolf15 (Mar 20, 2010)

To the OP: You're blaming the wrong company. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at Comcast for making the change --this was their choice, not Tivo's.

_TiVo is going to leave Series 3 customers connected to Comcast with no service, and they make you the following offer: Buy a new Roamio Basic ($200) and "Lifetime Service" ($200). So, for Series 3 customers your "Lifetime Service" was for the "Lifetime" of the Series 3 line, not for (what you thought was) your lifetime._

After the Series 1, Tivo has *always been clear that "Lifetime Service" is for the lifetime of the hardware, not your lifetime. It's out there in black and white if you read the agreement. If your hard disk in your out-of-warranty Tivo fails, and you don't know how to fix it --well, that's the lifetime of the product. Tivo is under no obligation to ship you a new one.

Tivo announced the Series 3 in 2006, and according to Tivopedia, approximate manufacture dates were 2006-2008. That means you got anywhere from 7-9 years out of this device if you bought it new. Nothing lasts forever, technology changes. Should Tivo still be supporting Lifetime Series 1 users from the year 2000 with standard-definition composite-RCA connection, no-Ethernet-onboard 20-60GB hard drive units? At what point does it end, and what is your hope for Tivo to continue making money so that they can keep alive as a company?


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

It's for your own good. Whining that you have access to excellent deals on superior products? Really?


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Your options are "I don't care" and "utter abandonment."

There is a huge IN BETWEEN that I feel. I am not happy about it, but I don't blame Tivo for it. I also don't blame the cable company, they are trying to make things better/more advanced.

We have TWC and an HD older Tivo. I haven't received any info yet, but I assume it is only a matter of time.


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## Anotherpyr (May 6, 2015)

Actually they're giving you a good deal. Lifetime is a dead end for them as there is no additional income to be made off a lifetime unit, but additional costs to keep it upgraded to current standards.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

CAOgdin2 said:


> TiVo is going to leave Series 3 customers connected to Comcast with no service, and they make you the following offer: Buy a new Roamio Basic ($200) and "Lifetime Service" ($200). So, for Series 3 customers your "Lifetime Service" was for the "Lifetime" of the Series 3 line, not for (what you thought was) _your_ lifetime.
> 
> The techsupport folks are nice, but they're touting the party line: "You can still use it for everything *else*!" and "Comcast is changing the Cablecard rules".


As CharlesH and others have pointed out the lifetime service has always been for the lifetime of the device and it's clearly spelled out in the service agreement.

I have 2 S3 OLED's and am on Comcast and will have to make a decision on this probably sooner than later. We are 3 generations back now (Premier, Roamio and now Bolt) and I've almost gotten 9 years of service so I don't feel "abandoned" by TiVo. Do I wish Comcast wasn't making this change? Sure, since my S3's are still doing what we need, but the problem is not TiVo's fault. They are giving you a great discount on lifetime so they are at least making some effort to help ease the pain.

In a similar vein, my XM SkyFi 2 which is about the same age doesn't receive the new stations because of technology changes and I wouldn't expect SiriusXM to give me a new receiver even if I had lifetime service with them.

Scott


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

DawnW said:


> We have TWC and an HD older Tivo. I haven't received any info yet, but I assume it is only a matter of time.


TWC is slow as molasses in upgrading technology. There are still TWC systems that have yet to go all digital. Since TWC uses SDV, they don't have the same bandwidth crunch that Comcast does. It will probably be years before TWC gets around to switching to H.264 compression.


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## CAOgdin2 (Oct 4, 2014)

Hey, Snotty!

I have been a TiVo user since Series 2, and I have a Series 3, and 1TB Roamio.

Those of you who wish to applaud TiVo for not caring about their customers are living in another reality I do not choose to join.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Even on Comcast, a Series 3 will still work for SD and local HD, neither of which are being converted to mpeg-4. It can also be used for OTA.

Having said that , I'd put the blame for this, if any is applicable, on TiVo. They made the conscious decision not to modify the s/w to add full support for mpeg-4.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

TiVo has been very clear about this upcoming change for years... I sold both my S3's about a year ago just to make sure I got maximum value from my lifetime investment.

It is a lot like the analog to digital change several up years ago... Hardware gets outmoded.

All that said, $400 for a lifetime Roamio is a smoking deal... I say kudos to TiVo for stepping up and offering discounts.


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## Jrr6415sun (Mar 31, 2006)

HerronScott said:


> As CharlesH and others have pointed out the lifetime service has always been for the lifetime of the device and it's clearly spelled out in the service agreement.


the device is still alive


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Jrr6415sun said:


> the device is still alive


And the device still works and is still supported. It can be used with a number of cable services and OTA.

It still has value and can be sold and the lifetime service transferred...


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

bradleys said:


> TiVo has been very clear about this upcoming change for years... I sold both my S3's about a year ago just to make sure I got maximum value from my lifetime investment.
> 
> It is a lot like the analog to digital change several up years ago... Hardware gets outmoded.
> 
> All that said, $400 for a lifetime Roamio is a smoking deal... I say kudos to TiVo for stepping up and offering discounts.


That's just it. The *h/w* isn't "outmoded" vis-a-vis mpeg-4. It just can't do all of the other stuff TiVo inc. wants a TIVo to be able to do.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Tivo sent an update to most of the S2's so they could use the OTA converter boxes when the OTA signal was being converted to digital. It seems like they could make an accommodation for the S3 now.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

They stopped selling S3 units in 2010. Do you really expect them to pick back up development for a platform discontinued over 5 years ago because your cable company decided to switch all your channel over to H.264? 

Even if you bought the S3 at the very end of it's lifecycle you only paid $400 for lifetime and got over 5 years of use out of it. That's less then $7/mo. If you bought it early in it's lifecycle then you got 9 years out of it, which is less then $4/mo. And even less then that if you got an MSD discount. No one here got ripped off. Technology marches on.


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## hansende (Dec 21, 2003)

tarheelblue32 said:


> TiVo is offering people with older equipment excellent deals on Roamios with lifetime service. You can get a 4-tuner Roamio for $400 or a 6-tuner Roamio Plus for $450. Y


Where is the link to these offers? I have a Series 3 with Lifetime!


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

hansende said:


> Where is the link to these offers? I have a Series 3 with Lifetime!


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=532395


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

CAOgdin2 said:


> I received a letter today from Comcast; if you are a Comcast customer you will receive on too.


Doesn't this completely depend on what market you're in? I've seen no indication that Comcast is planning to convert to MP4 in my area any time soon. I hope they do, and I hope it reduces the compression artifacts that currently plague their channels.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> Even on Comcast, a Series 3 will still work for SD and local HD, neither of which are being converted to mpeg-4. It can also be used for OTA.
> 
> Having said that , I'd put the blame for this, if any is applicable, on TiVo. They made the conscious decision not to modify the s/w to add full support for mpeg-4.


Does anybody know without question that the Series 3 would only require software to allow MPEG-4 to be used?, would the speed of the hardware cause a problem, I have no idea what the answer is, but some people on this Forum seem sure that only software is needed, how do they know that for sure, or is that just a guess because of some streaming the Series 3 can do.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lessd said:


> Does anybody know without question that the Series 3 would only require software to allow MPEG-4 to be used?


Yes. They used the same platform for the Australian/New Zeland TiVo and it supported H.264.

The problem is that here in the US there were no cable systems actually transmitting H.264 channels until well after S3 development had ceased. (sometime in 2012 IIRC) They couldn't have added it before that because they would have had no way to test it. And by the time there were channels to test with the S3 was a discontinued product who hadn't received a new update in almost 2 years. Had the MSOs started transmitting H.264 channels earlier I'm betting the S3 would have been updated.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Yes. They used the same platform for the Australian/New Zeland TiVo and it supported H.264.
> 
> The problem is that here in the US there were no cable systems actually transmitting H.264 channels until well after S3 development had ceased. (sometime in 2012 IIRC) They couldn't have added it before that because they would have had no way to test it. And by the time there were channels to test with the S3 was a discontinued product who hadn't received a new update in almost 2 years. Had the MSOs started transmitting H.264 channels earlier I'm betting the S3 would have been updated.


And your sure the hardware on the Series 3 Australian/New Zeland TiVo is exactly the same, because their TV uses a different standard than the US, so I would think that TiVo had to do some re-design of the hardware, and make sure it worked with H.264, or do I have this observation incorrect.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> Does anybody know without question that the Series 3 would only require software to allow MPEG-4 to be used?, would the speed of the hardware cause a problem, I have no idea what the answer is, but some people on this Forum seem sure that only software is needed, how do they know that for sure, or is that just a guess because of some streaming the Series 3 can do.


Yes. This is market dependent, at least for the foreseeable future. Comcast is not a single cable company, they are really hundreds of little cable companies operating under a single corporate, legal, and branding entity. They have Moto and Sci Atlanta, and more importantly for this, systems ranging from 625mhz (maybe even lower?) to 860mhz. Even if they plan to convert all systems to MPEG-4 eventually, it will take at least a couple of years to do that, if not significantly longer.

My guess is this. Comcast has a number of smaller, less densely populated "non-rebuild" 625 and 650mhz systems that are missing a lot of channels compared to the upgraded "rebuild" systems, which are 860mhz. The non-rebuild systems are completely and totally stuffed to the gills, and on top of that, they are in bad shape. The system I was on had "ghosts", and sometimes "you just get glitches" in the word of a Comcast Business tech. Those systems were fundamentally built in the 1970's and modified to be split into nodes, return path, etc, while the rebuild plants were completely rebuilt in the late 2000's/ early 2010's.

My guess is this. The non-rebuild systems are going MPEG-4 first. They have fewer boxes and customers, and they must have figured out that replacing any old MPEG-2 boxes with MPEG-4 boxes is cheaper than rebuilding the system, and now that X1 is out in full force, they probably have a ton of the older (but newer than MPEG-2) MPEG-4 boxes in stock. Eventually, they may migrate everyone to MPEG-4, so I don't know what happens to the non-rebuild systems then when the rebuild systems need MPEG-4 to offer all the channels plus gigabit internet. Maybe non-rebuild systems don't get gigabit, or Comcast figures all systems need both MPEG-4 and rebuilding, so they are going to stagger the cost of rebuilds by kicking the can a couple years down the road with MPEG-4.

The problem is that in order to make the math work on gigabit internet, even just a couple of channels of UHD, and a standard 120 channel HD lineup plus SD, phone, security, and everything else on there, all systems need BOTH MPEG-4 and rebuilding, and if they want to do more UHD, they need either IP delivery for the UHD, or SDV.

Back to TiVo.

Yes, it is rotten of TiVo not to push the software update out to the boxes to make them work, since they already contain MPEG-4 hardware. Yes, it is a relatively easy fix for TiVo to do.

That being said, the Series 3 boxes will still work with MPEG-2 systems and for OTA for the foreseeable future, they never said they would work with MPEG-4, and they are offering a pretty good deal on a newer box.

This really has nothing to do with CableCard, however, as CableCard doesn't care what codec you're using, it just does encryption of the signal. And it definitely doesn't have anything to do with DieselGate. This is the TiVo Community Forum, for that discussion, see the _TDI (Diesel) Emissions_ section on forums.tdiclub.com.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lessd said:


> And your sure the hardware on the Series 3 Australian/New Zeland TiVo is exactly the same, because their TV uses a different standard than the US, so I would think that TiVo had to do some re-design of the hardware, and make sure it worked with H.264, or do I have this observation incorrect.


Yeah, it's just a TiVo HD. We also know that the US S3 units support H.264 because you can transfer an H.264 file to them via pyTiVo, without transcoding, and they will play. (they also used this functionality officially for podcast and Amazon downloads)


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Jrr6415sun said:


> what's the point of offering "lifetime" if it's only 8 years or less? That is false advertising.


The S3 still works perfectly fine. I could use it on FIOS and still receive over 95% of the channels. The S3 still works and records the way it was designed to. And of course it still works with OTA. My GF is using two lifetime S3 boxes for OTA. Comast decided to switch the HD channels from MPEG2 to H.264. which is actually a good thing anyway. I wish FiOS would do the same instead of only a handful of channels using H.264.


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

CAOgdin2 said:


> Hey, Snotty!
> 
> I have been a TiVo user since Series 2, and I have a Series 3, and 1TB Roamio.
> 
> Those of you who wish to applaud TiVo for not caring about their customers are living in another reality I do not choose to join.


Well your whole post is wildly inaccurate. The S3 still works you can easily hook it up to an antenna and you have a fully functional machine. TiVo never sold it as a product for your Comcast sole use!


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## ferrumpneuma (Jun 1, 2006)

Is there a way to test the NZ disk image on US hardware on a US cable provider(preferably Chicago)?

Would you need a PROM modified TiVoHD to run such software?


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## ferrumpneuma (Jun 1, 2006)

ferrumpneuma said:


> Is there a way to test the NZ disk image on US hardware on a US cable provider(preferably Chicago)?
> 
> Would you need a PROM modified TiVoHD to run such software?


No, not for you.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> They stopped selling S3 units in 2010. Do you really expect them to pick back up development for a platform discontinued over 5 years ago because your cable company decided to switch all your channel over to H.264?


Wasn't the recent removal of youtube, amazon and podcasts from the S3 a software update?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> Wasn't the recent removal of youtube, amazon and podcasts from the S3 a software update?


Plus, they even updated the S2s to fix the "expired cookie" problem.

I no longer have a functioning S3 ( so really "I ain't got no dog in this hunt"). Can someone who does verify that a an h.264/mp4 recording is not transcoded when pushed via pyTivo to an S3 but does playback with no problems?


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

I don't have a dog in that fight, but THAT dog won't hunt.

Mpeg4 plays back natively on the s3 and HD. It will transcode unless you play nice.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Wil said:


> I don't have a dog in that fight, but THAT dog won't hunt.





Wil said:


> Mpeg4 plays back natively on the s3 and HD.


 When I still had an operative THD, I transferred an H.264 recording from a Roamio (pulled to the Roamio via pyTivo). Got sound but no picture. Played back fine on the Roamio.



Wil said:


> It will transcode unless you play nice.


If it gets transcoded during the transfer, then it is no longer mp4.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> If it gets transcoded during the transfer, then it is no longer mp4.


Not sure what your point is. Without specific file naming, or if PULLED by pyTivo the mpeg4 will be transcoded on the fly and in those cases the file as displayed is no longer an mpeg4. Yes.

But the Tivo 3's mpeg4 capability is all well-documented stuff going back 6-7 years and it was assumed at that time that Tivo would simply do a system update as cable providers started moving over to mpeg4. As they apparently did in Australia and New Zealand. I realize Tivo Inc. apologists (and latest/greatest snobs) are trying to rewrite history but let's be real.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Wil said:


> Not sure what your point is. Without specific file naming, or if PULLED by pyTivo the mpeg4 will be transcoded on the fly and in those cases the file as displayed is no longer an mpeg4. Yes.


I was just trying to understand your


> It will transcode unless you play nice.


 since my basic question was seeking verification that it was possible to push an h.264 recording to an S3 w/o transcoding and have it be playable.



Wil said:


> But the Tivo 3's mpeg4 capability is all well-documented stuff going back 6-7 years and it was assumed at that time that Tivo would simply do a system update as cable providers started moving over to mpeg4. As they apparently did in Australia and New Zealand. I realize Tivo Inc. apologists (and latest/greatest snobs) are trying to rewrite history but let's be real.


What I don't understand is why an mpeg-4 xferred from another TiVo to an S3 won't play properly while the same recording pushed to the S3 will. The only logical explanation seems to be a deliberate decision by TiVo to cripple the S3.


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## ferrumpneuma (Jun 1, 2006)

ferrumpneuma said:


> Is there a way to test the NZ disk image on US hardware on a US cable provider(preferably Chicago)?
> 
> Would you need a PROM modified TiVoHD to run such software?


Zibbity zop flezelnop hibty jop.


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## echilson (Jan 10, 2008)

I think a lot of people are mistaking Tivo's lifetime service as device contract. It was not, it was a subscription to tivo's service for as long as the device worked. Not until tivo decided not to support that device! Who in their right mind would buy a service agreement knowing the service would be cancelled at the whim of the company, while the device still worked perfectly. Just because it worked longer than the company planned.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

echilson said:


> I think a lot of people are mistaking Tivo's lifetime service as device contract. It was not, it was a subscription to tivo's service for as long as the device worked. Not until tivo decided not to support that device! Who in their right mind would buy a service agreement knowing the service would be cancelled at the whim of the company, while the device still worked perfectly. Just because it worked longer than the company planned.


What exactly is your point? TiVo is still providing service (guide data) to all units in active service , they just aren't providing s/w updates for any pre S4 units nor will they activate one not currently in service.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

ferrumpneuma said:


> Zibbity zop flezelnop hibty jop.


Keep that up and you are liable to be sucked into the internet.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> Wasn't the recent removal of youtube, amazon and podcasts from the S3 a software update?


Apparently removing items from the menu doesn't require a software update in the same manner that we normally see on TiVo's with a version change and reboot required to update. Think of those as configuration changes and not software updates.

Scott


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## echilson (Jan 10, 2008)

lpwcomp said:


> What exactly is your point? TiVo is still providing service (guide data) to all units in active service , they just aren't providing s/w updates for any pre S4 units nor will they activate one not currently in service.


I bought a device, made by Tivo, two actually, to watch Comcast cable. I paid for lifetime subscription for each device from Tivo that were for the lifetime of the devices. Tivo was very specific in all its advertizing etc that lifetime was for as long as the device worked, not my lifetime. The devices still work perfectly, so if the cable supplier (comcast) changes, and the device no longer works because of that change, but still works otherwise. Tivo has made my device obsolete. Where's my lifetime subscription?? Oh, yes, I've had them a lonnggg time,but that is really not part of the equation is it.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

echilson said:


> I bought a device, made by Tivo, two actually, to watch Comcast cable. I paid for lifetime subscription for each device from Tivo that were for the lifetime of the devices. Tivo was very specific in all its advertizing etc that lifetime was for as long as the device worked, not my lifetime. The devices still work perfectly, so if the cable supplier (comcast) changes, and the device no longer works because of that change, but still works otherwise. Tivo has made my device obsolete. Where's my lifetime subscription?? Oh, yes, I've had them a lonnggg time,but that is really not part of the equation is it.


Your device is _*NOT*_ obsolete. It still works for OTA and non mpeg-4 cable channels.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

echilson said:


> yes, I've had them [Tivo 3s] a lonnggg time,but that is really not part of the equation is it.


No. Not if a simple system update can accommodate the change to mpeg4. It's unbelievable to me than 90% of the messages support Tivo Inc. in this. Unreal.


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

echilson said:


> I bought a device, made by Tivo, two actually, to watch Comcast cable. I paid for lifetime subscription for each device from Tivo that were for the lifetime of the devices. Tivo was very specific in all its advertizing etc that lifetime was for as long as the device worked, not my lifetime. The devices still work perfectly, so if the cable supplier (comcast) changes, and the device no longer works because of that change, but still works otherwise. Tivo has made my device obsolete. Where's my lifetime subscription?? Oh, yes, I've had them a lonnggg time,but that is really not part of the equation is it.


Did your device stop working? No, the company that you use to watch TV changed their delivery method. If Comcast started offering holographic TV would you expect your tv to be able to adapt and project that picture? I know stupid question, but so is blaming one company for creating a product and not being able to look 5 years in the future and know that a cable tv operator would change their delivery method


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Wil said:


> No. Not if a simple system update can accommodate the change to mpeg4. It's unbelievable to me than 90% of the messages support Tivo Inc. in this. Unreal.


I want to make it clear that I am not "supporting TiVo in this." But engaging in hyperbole such as "TiVo made my device obsolete" gets you nowhere.

I think most if not all of the people who _*are*_ supporting TiVo in this like to be on the bleeding edge of technology and have the disposable income to do so and don't want TiVo to devote _*any*_ resources to maintain a device _*they*_ consider to be obsolete and for which they have no use.


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## 241705 (Mar 9, 2010)

People are making the assumption that a "simple" code deployment would enable mpeg-4 compatibility in the TiVoHD. How do you know it is simple? Unless you've reviewed their code stack, you have no idea how many changes are required nor what impact this might have on other areas of the code. The change would also likely require full regression testing. That consumes resources I theorize TiVo would rather use in support of new products that bring in new revenue. That's a business decision.

Comcast has made the business decision to deliver some channels in mpeg-4 so they can fit more in their pipe. Why aren't you upset with them? If they weren't changing then all would be good, right?

I also have a TivoHD (and a Premiere and a Roamio) with lifetime. My TiVoHD with lifetime still receives guide data, which I expect it will continue to do until the hardware dies. It still records and plays back TV shows and does the things it did when I bought it six years ago. That is my expectation of "lifetime". I don't expect TiVo to continue to try to do everything they can to continue to evolve the TiVoHD platform. It's great if they can do something to make it work with mpeg-4 but I can understand why they might not. I *do* still have a use for my TiVoHD but it *is* obsolete. Same thing with the 8-year-old PC I am trying to keep alive - I still use it but its time has come.

I don't consider myself to be on the bleeding edge at all: I just bought my Roamio a month ago (wasn't it released a couple of years ago?) only because there were some killer deals going on with lifetime service.

The reality of today's consumer electronics industry is that "newer and faster" is what brings in the money.


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## ferrumpneuma (Jun 1, 2006)

blackngold75 said:


> People are also making the assumption that a "simple" code deployment would enable mpeg-4 compatibility in the TiVoHD. How do you know it is simple? Unless you've reviewed their code stack, you have no idea how many changes are required nor what impact this might have on other areas of the code. The change would also likely require full regression testing. That consumes resources I bet they'd rather use in support of new products that bring in new revenue. That's a business decision.
> 
> Comcast has made the decision to deliver some channels in mpeg-4 so they can fit more in their pipe. Why aren't you upset with them? If they weren't changing then all would be good, right?
> 
> I also have a TivoHD (and a Premiere and a Roamio) with lifetime. My TiVoHD with lifetime still receives guide data, which I expect it will until the hardware dies. It still records and plays back TV shows and does the things it did when I bought it. That is my expectation of "lifetime".


Have any "Hobbyist" tinkered with the NZ TiVoHD software image on American Hardware? That wouldn't cost TiVo a thing.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> I no longer have a functioning S3 ( so really "I ain't got no dog in this hunt"). Can someone who does verify that a an h.264/mp4 recording is not transcoded when pushed via pyTivo to an S3 but does playback with no problems?


I no longer have a functioning S3 myself, but I hope you'll take my word for it that yes, they accept h.264 video without transcoding.  You have to Push it, in MP4 format. It apparently gets stored on the TiVo as an MP4 (I say this because of what follows), and as with all Pushes, you can't get it out again. But it plays just fine.

What the S3 _won't_ accept is h.264 in a transport stream, which eliminates both pyTivo Pulls, and cable TV tuning.



lpwcomp said:


> When I still had an operative THD, I transferred an H.264 recording from a Roamio (pulled to the Roamio via pyTivo). Got sound but no picture.


Yeah, that's normal, sadly.

You could make it work, by extracting the recording in TS mode, decrypting it (using a TS-capable decrypter), and pushing it back to the THD (letting pyTivo remux it to MP4 in the process).


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## ferrumpneuma (Jun 1, 2006)

ferrumpneuma said:


> Have any "Hobbyist" tinkered with the NZ TiVoHD software image on American Hardware? That wouldn't cost TiVo a thing.


Is this a forbidden topic?


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

ferrumpneuma said:


> Is this a forbidden topic?


No, can't be at least in practice. If you look back at the extensive discussions about "Zipper" for example, the subject of making changes to the System* is pervasive. What is certainly NOT allowed would be discussion of theft of service, which is obviously not your intention. But of course once you start meddling with the innards anything is possible so a particular moderator at a particular point in time might pull the trigger.

*We're discussing "System" in a very loose and technically incorrect way. Tivo is not exactly like a computer's Operating System (OS) and application programs, but to follow through on that model as an analogy, the ability to use the mpeg4 channels would probably require only the modification of a specific application program and some settings rather than the "OS" as whole. So you wouldn't need to transplant the Australian/NZ "System" as a whole, you'd want to look at the specific code in the Oz/NZprogram with a disassembler and make a probably rather extensive patch to that program in the existing U.S. version, and change some settings. This WOULD require a patched PROM (for us users, not Tivo itself who could do it with the existing PROM) which is also in itself not a forbidden subject since it was exhaustively discussed here in relation to the old R10, for example..


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Is Comcast rolling this out region by region? I haven't gotten this notice and we're only a month away for the 11/17 date.

And am I correct in reading that this affects the original "Series 3" and the "Tivo HD" as well?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

bmgoodman said:


> Is Comcast rolling this out region by region?


Yes.



bmgoodman said:


> And am I correct in reading that this affects the original "Series 3" and the "Tivo HD" as well?


That is correct. Both the HD and the HDXL are Series 3 TiVos, just not labeled that way.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> You could make it work, by extracting the recording in TS mode, decrypting it (using a TS-capable decrypter), and pushing it back to the THD (letting pyTivo remux it to MP4 in the process).


I was testing whether or not a S4 or S5-THD transfer of an H.264 would create a a playable recording. I didn't and still don't (yet) have access to an H.264 channel. I created the test recording on one of my Roamios by pulling an H.264 encoded recording from my PC.


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## CAOgdin2 (Oct 4, 2014)

aztivo said:


> Well your whole post is wildly inaccurate. The S3 still works you can easily hook it up to an antenna and you have a fully functional machine. TiVo never sold it as a product for your Comcast sole use!


Not when you live, as I do, in a rural area of California. "Live TV" (aka OTA) signals are all blocked by mountains and forests.

I think I've solved my problem by extending the Roamio with a "Mini," which let me use MOCA to extens the Roamio to the other most important TV in the house. The curious test will come when I try it with TWO "Mini"s so I can use all three TVs (seldom ever used all at the same time, but often two on different streams).


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

CAOgdin2 said:


> Not when you live, as I do, in a rural area of California. "Live TV" (aka OTA) signals are all blocked by mountains and forests.
> 
> I think I've solved my problem by extending the Roamio with a "Mini," which let me use MOCA to extens the Roamio to the other most important TV in the house. The curious test will come when I try it with TWO "Mini"s so I can use all three TVs (seldom ever used all at the same time, but often two on different streams).


The S3 also still works for SD and local HD channels on cable.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

echilson said:


> I bought a device, made by Tivo, two actually, to watch Comcast cable. I paid for lifetime subscription for each device from Tivo that were for the lifetime of the devices. Tivo was very specific in all its advertizing etc that lifetime was for as long as the device worked, not my lifetime. The devices still work perfectly, so if the cable supplier (comcast) changes, and the device no longer works because of that change, but still works otherwise. Tivo has made my device obsolete. Where's my lifetime subscription?? Oh, yes, I've had them a lonnggg time,but that is really not part of the equation is it.


Unfortunately your nonsensical post is going to make me take the other side of this from what I was saying before about the software update.

TiVo never promised that they would make the S3 record and play MPEG-4. They never advertised that it would record and play MPEG-4. You could an MPEG-2 DVR, and Comcast is moving on. The S3 still works for SD, locals, on other cable companies and OTA.

Your logic doesn't make any sense, as you are somehow assuming that TiVo sold you something that they didn't.



lpwcomp said:


> I think most if not all of the people who _*are*_ supporting TiVo in this like to be on the bleeding edge of technology and have the disposable income to do so and don't want TiVo to devote _*any*_ resources to maintain a device _*they*_ consider to be obsolete and for which they have no use.


I have to acknowledge both sides of this issue. Should TiVo update the S3? Yes! Would it be the right thing to do? Of course! Do they have any obligation to make the S3 do something it was never sold to do and never advertised to do? Absolutely not.

This is also not a new issue. FIOS has been using MPEG-4 on upper tier packages for a while, although the cheapskates still on S3 units are probably not subscribing to those tiers. IIRC, Cox had some in the 900mhz range at one point, but even a software update wouldn't help the S3's, as they have an 860mhz tuner, unlike the 1ghz tuner present in the Premiere and later units.

The cost to upgrade from a Lifetime S3 to a Lifetime Premiere isn't that much, maybe $250 tops when you factor in shipping fees. And since you're on Comcast, the crappy OTA tuners in the Premiere aren't going to affect you anyway. The S3 market isn't going to change that much, as it's a few systems, slowly, and people will want S3s for OTA and cord cutting, as an S3 and a Roku is cheaper than a Bolt or Roamio.



bmgoodman said:


> Is Comcast rolling this out region by region? I haven't gotten this notice and we're only a month away for the 11/17 date.
> 
> And am I correct in reading that this affects the original "Series 3" and the "Tivo HD" as well?


Northern VA is likely all rebuilt to compete with FIOS, so it won't be getting MPEG-4 for the foreseeable future.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Bigg said:


> the cheapskates still on S3 units are probably not subscribing to those tiers. IIRC, Cox had some in the 900mhz range at one point, but even a software update wouldn't help the S3's, as they have an 860mhz tuner


The HD tuner apparently tunes higher; for the brief period of time Cox had a couple of mpeg2 channels above 860 in my area, the HD's tuned them but not the original series 3's. Then they swapped them into mpeg4 so game over for those 2 channels.

The Tivo series 3/HD were marketed to receive Cable TV channels. For many of your "cheapskate" customers they don't any more.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

I'm POed at Comcast for obsoleting my third TiVo. 

I'm annoyed with myself for not getting the Roamio deal which would have switched my service to the Roamio and given me Lifetime on the TiVoHD for $99, but at the time it was offered to me, I couldn't take it.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Wil said:


> The HD tuner apparently tunes higher; for the brief period of time Cox had a couple of mpeg2 channels above 860 in my area, the HD's tuned them but not the original series 3's. Then they swapped them into mpeg4 so game over for those 2 channels.
> 
> The Tivo series 3/HD were marketed to receive Cable TV channels. For many of your "cheapskate" customers they don't any more.


They must have ended up with 1ghz tuners then in the HDs.

They were marketed to work with CableCard and MPEG-2. Which they still do. They were never marketed to work with a technological combination that didn't exist at the time they were made. They still do that, and will still work with Comcast, just not with all channels on all systems.

Analog cell phones don't work any more. Nor will analog TVs without a box in most places. Technology moves forward. Move on. At least they still have resale value, as they are still good OTA DVRs.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Move on. At least they still have resale value, as they are still good OTA DVRs.


It only has resale value if it already has lifetime service.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> It only has resale value if it already has lifetime service.


This discussion and the complaints have been about S3's and HD's with lifetime. If you are still paying monthly on an S3, you can pick up a Premiere for $50 without lifetime.

Scott


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HerronScott said:


> This discussion and the complaints have been about S3's and HD's with lifetime. If you are still paying monthly on an S3, you can pick up a Premiere for $50 without lifetime.
> 
> Scott


Yup. And who in their right mind would still be paying monthly on an S3? If you're going to pay monthly, you may as well grab a Bolt.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Bigg said:


> Northern VA is likely all rebuilt to compete with FIOS, so it won't be getting MPEG-4 for the foreseeable future.


I was actually checking for some folks in Stafford, VA. Is there a Comcast conversion schedule available?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Unfortunately your nonsensical post is going to make me take the other side of this from what I was saying before about the software update.
> 
> TiVo never promised that they would make the S3 record and play MPEG-4. They never advertised that it would record and play MPEG-4. You could an MPEG-2 DVR, and Comcast is moving on. The S3 still works for SD, locals, on other cable companies and OTA.
> 
> ...


Comcast switching to H.264 is about DOCSIS 3.1. They need to free up bandwidth for it. And by switching most HD channels to H.264 it should do the job since DOCSIS 3.1 will require a ton of extra bandwidth compared to what is used now.


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

bmgoodman said:


> I was actually checking for some folks in Stafford, VA. Is there a Comcast conversion schedule available?


I haven't been able to find one - maybe someone else can point to it. People seem to be finding out when they get the notice from Comcast. Tivo's support site only shows areas that have already made the conversion:

https://support.tivo.com/SupportPortalArticleViewPage?artURL=/articles/Features_Use/Comcast-Transitioning-to-MPEG4-in-Select-Markets


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

bmgoodman said:


> I was actually checking for some folks in Stafford, VA. Is there a Comcast conversion schedule available?


No. I was just making a logical deduction.



aaronwt said:


> Comcast switching to H.264 is about DOCSIS 3.1. They need to free up bandwidth for it. And by switching most HD channels to H.264 it should do the job since DOCSIS 3.1 will require a ton of extra bandwidth compared to what is used now.


Interesting. Yes, they will need a ton of bandwidth. I wish they would put more HD channels on rather than offer ridiculously high speeds, but they seem to want to be able to market the gigabit speeds, which most users can't currently utilize their 150mbps service now.

They are, however, starting with lower frequency systems, so that must be the second phase of the H.264 rollouts. The lower frequency systems will never have enough bandwidth for gigabit, so if they do get D3.1, they will have to live with significantly lower speeds until they are rebuilt as well.

All of this, however, just seems like delaying the inevitable- SDV, if they are going to offer more than just a couple UHD channels and a full HD lineup, of which even their best systems are around 80 channels short right now.


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## buccobruce (Aug 25, 2007)

Bigg said:


> They must have ended up with 1ghz tuners then in the HDs.
> 
> They were marketed to work with CableCard and MPEG-2. Which they still do. They were never marketed to work with a technological combination that didn't exist at the time they were made. They still do that, and will still work with Comcast, just not with all channels on all systems.
> 
> Analog cell phones don't work any more. Nor will analog TVs without a box in most places. Technology moves forward. Move on. At least they still have resale value, as they are still good OTA DVRs.


Of course, the most frustrating part for me is that the hardware can support the new format, there is software available to support the new format (the NZ software), but TiVo will not release it to those of us who still have a significant investment in the hardware.

Of course, if I was renting a box from my cable company, I would have a new box out before implementation of the new standard. Yet another reason TiVo is struggling, a big monetary investment, without long term support.

bb


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Bigg said:


> All of this, however, just seems like delaying the inevitable- SDV, if they are going to offer more than just a couple UHD channels and a full HD lineup, of which even their best systems are around 80 channels short right now.


Agreed. SDV is the only way they will ever be able to offer gigabit service, UHD channels, or even all the HD channels, short of Comcast replacing all the coax with FTTH, which they will never do. SDV is the reason why TWC offers pretty much every HD channel and Comcast is lagging behind in that area. I know lots of people on here hate the idea of SDV, but if it's done right it works seamlessly.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

buccobruce said:


> Of course, the most frustrating part for me is that the hardware can support the new format, there is software available to support the new format (the NZ software), but TiVo will not release it to those of us who still have a significant investment in the hardware.


Yes, I can understand why it is frustrating from a geek perspective, because we know that MPEG-4 hardware is in there. However, no one with a Series 3 has anything really tied up in those boxes anymore, as even the most stretched out amortization scheme has zero'ed them out by now.



tarheelblue32 said:


> Agreed. SDV is the only way they will ever be able to offer gigabit service, UHD channels, or even all the HD channels, short of Comcast replacing all the coax with FTTH, which they will never do. SDV is the reason why TWC offers pretty much every HD channel and Comcast is lagging behind in that area. I know lots of people on here hate the idea of SDV, but if it's done right it works seamlessly.


Yup. TWC is around 200. FIOS is the same without SDV because they don't have to carry internet, phone, and VOD on their cable system. It shouldn't be hard to do SDV through software and IP on TiVo and negate the need for a TA. I'd take it if it meant that they could all of the sudden go from 70 to 200 channels on a 650mhz system, or 120 to 200 on an 860mhz system.

Does TWC offer the sports packages in all HD like DirecTV does? It would be possible to really go nuts on stuff like that with SDV, as you effectively have an unlimited number of HD channels available.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

The problem with doing SDV control via back-channel IP like VOD on TiVo is that while you can require an internet connection to access VOD, you cannot require one to access linear channels.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

As others have said, Local HD is not being converted and that's all we subcribe to anyways so we're good. 

Now, to the OP, if you want to sell me your TiVo HD, I'll give you $25 for it (for parts)...


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

jlb said:


> Now, to the OP, if you want to sell me your TiVo HD, I'll give you $25 for it (for parts)...


I'll take $25 for mine... so long as you cover the shipping.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> The problem with doing SDV control via back-channel IP like VOD on TiVo is that while you can require an internet connection to access VOD, you cannot require one to access linear channels.


Ok, there's probably one dude out there somewhere who has a TiVo and for some reason is stuck in 1997 in regards to internet access. It wouldn't be rocket science for Comcast to provision a cable modem that can only access Comcast's internal network and *.TiVo.com for that guy to comply with the law. Everyone else wouldn't have to add anything, as their TiVos are already connected to the internet.

Or they could just give that one guy a TA, since they would have to support them for the 5 people who have some non-TiVo CableCard device. HTPCs are easy, since they could be supported via a software patch or program of some sort.


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## buccobruce (Aug 25, 2007)

Geeks or not...

Some of us may have modified these series three boxes to eliminate restrictions on recordings. As there has been no progress on this since the series three, that will be lost once these boxes are obsolete.

bb


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

buccobruce said:


> Geeks or not...
> 
> Some of us may have modified these series three boxes to eliminate restrictions on recordings. As there has been no progress on this since the series three, that will be lost once these boxes are obsolete.
> 
> bb


I don't see that problem as exactly motivation for TiVo to help Series 3 owners in keeping their boxes alive.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ej42137 said:


> I don't see that problem as exactly motivation for TiVo to help Series 3 owners in keeping their boxes alive.


Yeah, quite to the contrary!


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## buccobruce (Aug 25, 2007)

Only posted to explain why some owners might want to keep ten year old technology active. 

The post I responded to did not seem to understand why someone might want to keep these boxes functioning. This from someone with an original series one, purchased as soon as they were released, a series two, series three, tivo hd, tivo premiere, roamio pro, and two tivo minis. Obviously the series one and two are no longer used, time marches on.

bb


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

buccobruce said:


> Only posted to explain why some owners might want to keep ten year old technology active......


...like for me, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." It currently meets my demands, which are fairly simple....record local HD content.

If my box needs a new upgraded HD again, I can fix that reasonably cheaply. Same goes for power supply. I could probably tackle replacing capacitors too (last box opening showed mine still in good shape).

If there is a major problem, then I might consider seeing what TiVo would do for me with respect to moving my LT to a Roamio.

But for now, my HD is chugging along fine.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

I think people who have purchased or purchase a series3/HD with the intention of activating it later, and find that they are prevented by Tivo from doing so, may have an ethical decision to make. Since the product has been crippled by the seller for the purpose for which it was sold, is it now OK to take matters into your own hands and seek out someone who can make the piece of junk work again?

Maybe send $99 anonymously to Tivo to salve your conscience?

I'm not saying it can be done; well, it CAN be done but the guide data could then be turned off by Tivo, trivially, so the recording/scheduling capability would be awkward at best. Unless someone has an insight that I don't see. The question is will/should a (theoretical) hack be made relatively public at this point? Short-lived as it may turn out to be.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Wil said:


> I'm not saying it can be done; well, it CAN be done but the guide data could then be turned off by Tivo, trivially, so the recording/scheduling capability would be awkward at best. Unless someone has an insight that I don't see. The question is will/should a (theoretical) hack be made relatively public at this point? Short-lived as it may turn out to be.


Speaking theoretically... if you're supplying guide data yourself, and not expecting software updates -- and we know that TiVo isn't doing any more software updates for the Series 3 -- then there's no reason that the TiVo box ever has to actually talk, or be able to talk, to TiVo Inc. servers. And if it doesn't, then I don't see how they could deactivate it.

But I think you'd have to fake the TiVo's activation status, as well as the guide data. Hypothetically.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Speaking theoretically... if you're supplying guide data yourself


That's the harder part. And without doing that part (and obviously blocking any attempt to update), the rest is, well ... exposed. Theoretically.


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## midnightmarauder (Oct 9, 2006)

And Tivo last week sold me lifetime service on my premiere for $99.
Good thing I'm cutting the cord and going OTA


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

midnightmarauder said:


> And Tivo last week sold me lifetime service on my premiere for $99.
> Good thing I'm cutting the cord and going OTA


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## ferrumpneuma (Jun 1, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> Speaking theoretically... if you're supplying guide data yourself, and not expecting software updates -- and we know that TiVo isn't doing any more software updates for the Series 3 -- then there's no reason that the TiVo box ever has to actually talk, or be able to talk, to TiVo Inc. servers. And if it doesn't, then I don't see how they could deactivate it.
> 
> But I think you'd have to fake the TiVo's activation status, as well as the guide data. Hypothetically.


Complete simplicity!


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

ferrumpneuma said:


> Complete simplicity!


It's not that simple unless you have some insight? If you don't TOTALLY isolate from Tivo, your changes can be overwritten at any time and continuing the guide data can be made contingent on that update. So you have to do all three things: patch the software, obtain an independent source of guide data (and script that integration), and protect your Tivo from updates. In order these things are moderately difficult, near impossible (at least with quality data), and admittedly easy (but assumes you don't NEED Tivo Inc for the guide data).

Do you in fact have some insight into the guide data issue? Source?


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## ferrumpneuma (Jun 1, 2006)

I do not.


I was leaving a little breadcrumb.


Can you add any clarity?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

IMHO if TiVo no longer wants to support the Series 1, 2, and 3 for new activations TiVo should not brick the units, but open them up for manual use, no call home, no guide data, no tech. support, just manual setup, good for recording say a video camera output or whatever. How much money could this cost TiVo, and would give them good will.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Wil said:


> Do you in fact have some insight into the guide data issue?


I haven't read anything about it in years, but my impression was that guide data was a solved issue, long ago. I don't know if the solutions from that era still work, but I have no reason to assume they don't.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lessd said:


> IMHO if TiVo no longer wants to support the Series 1, 2, and 3 for new activations TiVo should not brick the units, but open them up for manual use, no call home, no guide data, no tech. support, just manual setup, good for recording say a video camera output or whatever. How much money could this cost TiVo, and would give them good will.


The S3 units only had coax input. No way to record HD manually unless you have an ATSC or QAM modulator, which from what I understand are pretty expensive.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> The S3 units only had coax input. No way to record HD manually unless you have an ATSC or QAM modulator, which from what I understand are pretty expensive.


An unsubscribed S3 can be set up to receive OTA channels without a subscription. The live buffer works when watching OTA. Why couldn't you record the show manually, if Tivo enabled the functionality?

Naming the shows might also be an issue, since there is no guide information. I'm not sure how that would work.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

shwru980r said:


> An unsubscribed S3 can be set up to receive OTA channels without a subscription. The live buffer works when watching OTA. Why couldn't you record the show manually, if Tivo enabled the functionality?
> 
> Naming the shows might also be an issue, since there is no guide information. I'm not sure how that would work.


I forgot they did OTA. Yeah I guess it could be useful for that.

TiVo does have a way to allow manual recordings on a unit without service, so they could do this. Not sure if they will though since any TiVo, even one without service, that is hooked up would still call in every 36 hours and use up some of their server time.


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## CAOgdin2 (Oct 4, 2014)

shwru980r said:


> ...Why couldn't you record the show manually, if Tivo enabled the functionality?...


Because I paid a lot of money to TiVo to NOT HAVE TO DO that. What's the use of TiVo if you're reduced to basically nothing but a manual recorder with an indexing feature?

Like others, I've solved my problem with a TiVo Mini, which gives me access to my Roamio for another TV. I may add a second Mini, if a) I like the first one, and b) Two Minis can run on the same in-home coax network (MOCA).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

You can have up to 9 Minis on the same MoCa network I believe. I have 3 Minis and 3 TiVos on the same MoCa network and they all work fine.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo does have a way to allow manual recordings on a unit without service, so they could do this.


Tivoapp could be patched, probably just brute force with little technical expertise to do that, but the Tivo is still going to check in. The old fakecall could probably be adapted but that's a little more sophisticated. Guide data is a total mystery to me and the old solutions referred to were clumsy and not very good, so basically there's still some work required to get an obsolete Tivo3 working without burdening Tivo Inc. But there is no interest among the "good old days" coders who have long since moved on past Tivo.


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