# Series 3 info on tivo.com



## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Just saw this on tivo.com:

TiVo in HD! Coming soon...
Sign up to receive information on TiVo® Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder

http://www.tivo.com/series3hdDvr.asp

also a sublink to CableCard information.

Maybe the Series 3 is closer than we think


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

one never knows.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Keen, good catch.


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

YEAHHHHH!!! This thing better come out soon!!!!


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## lorick (Jul 30, 2001)

Please God, Let this be true ;-).

I want my Series 3 NOW!!!


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## krypdo (Sep 13, 2001)

The "Clicking "Submit" will take you to the Buy TiVo homepage" tactic is sneaky. For 2 seconds I thought it was letting me pre-order the S3.


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

Digg away http://digg.com/gadgets/Tivo_Series_3_Information_is_Now_on_Tivo_com


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Does anyone know what they are signing up for? Its it just the regular newsletter?


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

rainwater said:


> Does anyone know what they are signing up for? Its it just the regular newsletter?


probably just a special email that announces it's availibility.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

rainwater said:


> Does anyone know what they are signing up for? Its it just the regular newsletter?


Who cares?


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## lorick (Jul 30, 2001)

rainwater said:


> Does anyone know what they are signing up for? Its it just the regular newsletter?


The 1st 1000 people to sign up get a FREE Series 3 TiVo with lifetime service


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

lorick said:


> The 1st 1000 people to sign up get a FREE Series 3 TiVo with lifetime service


Dream On!


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## lorick (Jul 30, 2001)

krypdo said:


> The "Clicking "Submit" will take you to the Buy TiVo homepage" tactic is sneaky. For 2 seconds I thought it was letting me pre-order the S3.


Not very sneaky... It states "Clicking "Submit" will take you to the Buy TiVo homepage"


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## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

In the Series 3 CableCARD FAQ's section it states:

"Will my Series3 HD work with my cable company?
The TiVo Series3 HD will work with all major cable providers. In order to receive HD Digital channels, you will require (1) or (2) CableCARDs. Without CableCARDs, you will still be able to receive standard definition analog channels."

For some reason I thought that CableCARD's would only be needed
for encrypted HD channels like HBO HD ?


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

thechiz said:


> For some reason I thought that CableCARD's would only be needed
> for encrypted HD channels like HBO HD ?


Actually CableCARDS are required for all but Limited Basic, and a few extras, on my Comcast system. I understand that this is typical. Of course Limited Basic includes hi-def OTA channels.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> Of course Limited Basic includes hi-def OTA channels.


Would it still be called OTA if it is coming over-the-cable?

Aren't those QAM channels?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

thechiz said:


> In the Series 3 CableCARD FAQ's section it states:
> 
> "Will my Series3 HD work with my cable company?
> The TiVo Series3 HD will work with all major cable providers. In order to receive HD Digital channels, you will require (1) or (2) CableCARDs. Without CableCARDs, you will still be able to receive standard definition analog channels."
> ...


The channels are not scrambled BUT the lineup without the cable card is NUTS. On my Comcast system ABC is on 88.9 on my HD TV before the CC was installed, after the CC was installed ABC was on channel 231. For the TiVo S3 guide data to be useful you need the CC.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

greg_burns said:


> Would it be still be called OTA if it is coming over-the-cable?
> 
> Aren't those QAM channels?


QAM hi-def mirrors of OTA hi-def channels.

(More acurately, they're QAM mirrors of ATSC OTA.)


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## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

lessd said:


> The channels are not scrambled BUT the lineup without the cable card is NUTS. On my Comcast system ABC is on 88.9 on my HD TV before the CC was installed, after the CC was installed ABC was on channel 231. For the TiVo S3 guide data to be useful you need the CC.


Aha.... I see now...

A TiVo is not really a TiVo without the guide data.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

lessd said:


> The channels are not scrambled BUT the lineup without the cable card is NUTS. On my Comcast system ABC is on 88.9 on my HD TV before the CC was installed, after the CC was installed ABC was on channel 231. For the TiVo S3 guide data to be useful you need the CC.


Sony's HD DVR w/TVGOS allows manual channel mapping of both cable and OTA sources. It's not particularly difficult, but still is a time consuming one time chore that's a drag! (Sort of like how selecting channels used to be in earlier versions of Guided Set-up.

Hopefully Series 3 will accomplish all channel mapping automatically!


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Hmmm. I wonder if after installing CableCARD Sony's DVR will lose access to the channels that it receives that aren't available from Comcast's STB?


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## Lenonn (May 31, 2004)

I guess I'm going to need to subscribe and pay for digital cable... when my folks got their new HD plasma, my brother out of curiousity hooked up the cable directly to the TV (we don't have a set top box), just to see if we got any unencrypted HD channels; and we do (Discovery, HDNet, two feeds of MoreMax, that type of thing). I guess when I get the series 3, the semi-free ride will be over.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> Hmmm. I wonder if after installing CableCARD Sony's DVR will lose access to the channels that it receives that aren't available from Comcast's STB?


From what I remember, yes.


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## jimsocks (Jan 16, 2004)

I just bought a Panasonic 42" HD - w/ no cable card slot. If this new set is not HD-compatible with the S3 - I'm in DEEP doo-doo w/ the wife. I'm still within the 30-day window to exchange the Panasonic - but I do love it. Advice please?!?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

eric_mcgovern said:


> My Sony TV doesn't have a cable card in it (it has the slot) and it does channel mapping just fine. The HD Networks are mapped just as they are with a HD Box. I believe this is just an error on TiVo's part. If it has a QAM tuner it should be able to tune to the unencrypted channels just fine, and the channel mapping can also easily be handled by the guide data.


I have a Sony also and your correct it did the mapping just fine so I called 88.9 ABC-HD etc and all was well but I don't think the S3 would be able to use that data because its not published by the Cable Co and could change at any time. IE they could put ABC-HD on 87.6 than re-map the CC so it would still come out on channel 231 as their channel card tells you. I put the cable card in because my wife wanted some scrambled digital channels I was already paying for, but the S3 needs the guide data to work like a TiVo.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> My Sony TV doesn't have a cable card in it (it has the slot) and it does channel mapping just fine. The HD Networks are mapped just as they are with a HD Box. I believe this is just an error on TiVo's part. If it has a QAM tuner it should be able to tune to the unencrypted channels just fine, and the channel mapping can also easily be handled by the guide data.


Well, some cable providers are constantly moving channels around on their systems (as in every week or two), particularly those making the transition to digital. CableCard does the QAM->channel mapping for Tivo, so they wouldn't have to worry about regular QAM channel number adjustments at cable providers around the country. Such changes could cause the wrong program to be recorded. Using CableCard with its built-in mapping virtually guarantees that Tivo records the right channel at the right time.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

jimsocks said:


> I just bought a Panasonic 42" HD - w/ no cable card slot. If this new set is not HD-compatible with the S3 - I'm in DEEP doo-doo w/ the wife. I'm still within the 30-day window to exchange the Panasonic - but I do love it. Advice please?!?


You're fine! Your TV doesn't need CableCARD slots, the TiVo has them. So the CableCARDs go in the TiVo and then the TiVo connects to your TV like any other HD device via either component video cables or HDMI.

This new page is very promising! I'm getting very excited! 

Dan


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

jimsocks said:


> I just bought a Panasonic 42" HD - w/ no cable card slot. If this new set is not HD-compatible with the S3 - I'm in DEEP doo-doo w/ the wife. I'm still within the 30-day window to exchange the Panasonic - but I do love it. Advice please?!?


Does the TV have an HDMI input? Then it is compatible with the S3. Even if it only has component video then it is still capable of displaying HD from the S3.

The CableCARDs go into the TiVo, not the TV.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> Using CableCard with its built-in mapping virtually guarantees that Tivo records the right channel at the right time.


True, but it will be a major disappointment if Tivo doesn't provide some method to allow the end user to map QAM channels. The Sony DHG units do it - no excuse for the premiere Tivo not to.


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## jimsocks (Jan 16, 2004)

PHEW! Thanks gents! - It does have 2 hdmi inputs...appreciate the replies...


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

I don't think we should raise our expectations TOO high.  It isn't going to be all-singing, all-dancing on day one. I'm sure it will be a solid product but bells and whistles will be added with time. The hardware has a lot of potential, but it is best not to try to cram too many new features into the software on the first pass I think.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Megazone has a good picture of the pre-production Series3 (back), showing the inputs, outputs, and CableCard slots.

*Tivo Series3 Pictures*

Front
Rear
Rear closeup w/ CableCard slots


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## doormat (Sep 15, 2004)

I signed up. Lets just hope "soon" is within a month or two. My HDTV is lonely, the upconverting DVD player isnt cutting it.


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## omelet1978 (Mar 7, 2006)

I have directv, so am I out of luck if I want high def with tivo?


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## WeKnSmith (Jun 24, 2002)

omelet1978 said:


> I have directv, so am I out of luck if I want high def with tivo?


Take a look at this FAQ. DirecTV offers a HD DVR with TiVo software:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=151443


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Megazone has a good picture of the pre-production Series3 (back), showing the inputs, outputs, and CableCard slots.
> 
> *Tivo Series3 Pictures*
> 
> ...


I can't believe I am about to say this but.....don't you think they should have put serial control and IR on the back? It would have cost them like 2 cents each and they can keep or gain a lot of Satilite customers. For the reocord I hate IR (it's the main reason I went to DirecTivo), but many people won't leave D*. This freezes them out of the Series 3. Seems odd since the IR and serial ports are so cheap and Tivo already has the software written to control it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

seattlewendell said:


> I can't believe I am about to say this but.....don't you think they should have put serial control and IR on the back? It would have cost them like 2 cents each and they can keep or gain a lot of Satilite customers. For the reocord I hate IR (it's the main reason I went to DirecTivo), but many people won't leave D*. This freezes them out of the Series 3. Seems odd since the IR and serial ports are so cheap and Tivo already has the software written to control it.


you would get no HD from the SAT provider with that setup and allowing for two recordings at once would require a lot of kludge hassle. Best to just stick with a DirectTV TiVo or a series 2 if you want to use TiVo with a Sat provider.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

seattlewendell said:


> I can't believe I am about to say this but.....don't you think they should have put serial control and IR on the back?


No. Why? Because it still wouldn't be able to record HD from the satellite receivers. They don't expose the raw digital streams and it isn't practical to record from HDMI or component in a consumer level product. So you'd, at best, record SD - and the S2 can do that, so why buy an S3 to get S2 performance?

Satellite users will either go with the satellite DVR for HD recording, or just because it is the cheap & easy option, or they can use an S2 for SD recording from a receiver. The S3 is aimed at the HDTV market where TiVo can record digital streams directly - ATSC from antenna and digital cable with CableCARD.

Speaking of HD, my 61" Samsung was just delivered - now I need to assemble the stand and wire it.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> I can't believe I am about to say this but.....don't you think they should have put serial control and IR on the back?


We have Dish Network and DirecTV to blame for the lack of a Series3 satellite. Those providers will not allow (in the case of DirecTV, no longer allow) Tivo to produce DVRs for their satellite systems. They both use encryption and will not grant Tivo a license to implement their encryption system in a product.

The technology does not exist to record HDTV from component and DVI/HDMI in a consumer product --- the professional broadcast products with this capability are twice the size of your computer and cost up to $25,000 -- so access to the Dish and DirecTV encryption systems was the only option Tivo had to build a HDTV Tivo for satellite.

I'm sure you've heard about the suit against Dish Network...which chose to implement much of Tivo's functionality on its own, infringing Tivo's patents, rather than allow Tivo to compete for its HDTV DVR customers by granting them access to its encryption platform.

In contrast, our government mandated that all cable providers open their encryption systems to third-parties like Tivo by way of one common standard known as OpenCable (CableCard). For this reason, and this reason alone, we will have products like the Tivo Series3 that replace the cable box / cable DVR.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

seattlewendell said:


> I can't believe I am about to say this but.....don't you think they should have put serial control and IR on the back? It would have cost them like 2 cents each and they can keep or gain a lot of Satilite customers. For the reocord I hate IR (it's the main reason I went to DirecTivo), but many people won't leave D*. This freezes them out of the Series 3. Seems odd since the IR and serial ports are so cheap and Tivo already has the software written to control it.


I agree, but that and $.50 won't even get ya' a daily paper these days! Seriously, the days of the universal "standalone DVR" are over.

The dual tuner Series 3 is for cable and OTA only, either standard or hi-def, while the "dual tuner" Series 2 is an analog cable dinosaur at best, which can control a single digital cable or satellite STB on the side, but nothing which receives OTA UHF.

The single tuner Series 2 is being phased out for precisely the reason that it CAN record from all three sources and current FCC rules mandate that such devices must incorporate ATSC OTA tuners.


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> Just saw this on tivo.com:
> 
> TiVo in HD! Coming soon...
> Sign up to receive information on TiVo® Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder
> ...


Has TiVo ever done something like this before for a product release? How did that timeline play out?

I remember I got on the list to get a service update a while back (I guess that's when they were rolling out TiVoToGo or something like that...I don't remember) almost as soon as that list was posted and it took WEEKS/MONTHS to get that thing!! I was a little disappointed when I discovered I was getting on an info list rather than pre-ordering...that made me wonder in the device was still several months off (maybe November or Feb...past the 2nd half of 06 statement). It seems unlikely that they'd create a list only a couple weeks before the device comes out, right? They'd just wait a couple weeks and then put the device up for sale. It seems to me that you make a list for LATER, not sooner. Anybody else get this impression? Anybody think I'm way off? (I hope I am.) Even better, anybody have any reasoning/info to explain why I'm wrong?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jeffrypennock said:


> Has TiVo ever done something like this before for a product release? How did that timeline play out?


Not that I have seen. The Dual Tuner DT series 2 was different in that TiVo wanted to reduce stocks of the single tuner series 2 first. So the DT was launched with a few days advance public warning. The series 3 is a new line though and one TiVo sees existing with series 2 line so there is no need to hold the cards so close on it - thus things like get info page. I suspect that page though is really a tool to figure out interest across the country so TiVo can spread limited stock in the best way possible.

*But all signs on the forum the past two days point to a release very soon * (and I am not even counting the NDA breakers blog  ) but with limited functionality on some aspects of the software features. Software can be updated however so that is not a deal breaker.

TiVo would be wise to hit the new show season as that is a time people will get frustrated with their current DVR or wish they had a DVR to catch it all.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> Hmmm. I wonder if after installing CableCARD Sony's DVR will lose access to the channels that it receives that aren't available from Comcast's STB?





jfh3 said:


> From what I remember, yes.


Do you know what would happen if after getting a CableCARD installed I removed it?

...And later reinserted it?


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Megazone has a good picture of the pre-production Series3 (back), showing the inputs, outputs, and CableCard slots.
> 
> *Tivo Series3 Pictures*
> 
> ...


 * All of megazone's CES photos*


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Do you know what would happen if after getting a CableCARD installed I removed it?
> 
> ...And later reinserted it?


Not a problem, so long as it is reinserted into the same device. A CableCard is like the access cards used for satellite boxes in that it is tied to a specific box. CableCards and satellite boxes are also activated in much the same way -- there is a menu on each box with a sequence of numbers that you read off to the cable company when calling to activate.

You can't take the CableCard out of one device and stick it in another. Doing so can disable the CableCard, if the cable company enabled that security measure.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

I just noticed, is there only an optical digital audio out? I am currently using a copper digital audio cable.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I have a strong feeling based on all the buzz lately...

The S3 info page going up on TiVo.com...

The announcement of "TiVo House Parties"...

The fact that the fall shows are soon to start...

Something is afoot, and soon. I can feel it. I'll be honest. I'm always an early adopter (I got one of the Pioneer TiVo boxes when they were first released...but that's another story), so I have the feeling I'll do whatever it takes to get my hands on a S3 the day of release.

I'm somewhat concerned that the local cable company is going to come out, take one look at it, and be completely confused. I'm more worried that I'll call the cable company and tell them that I need TWO cable cards for ONE device, and that will confuse them even more. Wonder what the liklihood of this happening is?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> I'm somewhat concerned that the local cable company is going to come out, take one look at it, and be completely confused. I'm more worried that I'll call the cable company and tell them that I need TWO cable cards for ONE device, and that will confuse them even more. Wonder what the liklihood of this happening is


Each Series3 includes a one-page installation guide for activating the CableCard. You can use this to activate the box yourself -- which involves plugging the card into the back of the Series3, then calling your cable company and reading off a series of authorization numbers on the Tivo's setup screen. If you've ever called to activate a satellite receiver with Dish or DirecTV, then you know how this works.

Or you can give this sheet to the cable installer -- Tivo has already sent copies of this sheet to most cable companies as well. Tivo made the instructions very simple -- so long as your cable installer has at least a 4th grade reading level, they should be fine.

When you request the CableCard, you'll want to ask for a multistream card (available in a few markets now, and more in the near future). If they say they don't have a multistream card, then you tell them your box has two slots and needs two CableCards. Tivo is also working to get the word out so cable companies understand what customers need.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVotion said:


> I have a strong feeling based on all the buzz lately...


it is imminent. There are signs on this forum for sure but I would rather not point them out but any week now for sure,


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

omelet1978 said:


> I have directv, so am I out of luck if I want high def with tivo?


dump DirecTV and get cable.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

/me watches everyone drool over every little tidbit of information... and laughs.

Doesn't anyone see this as what it is: an information gathering operation? They want to know how many peopl eare interested in the S3, so they know just how much to hold back inventory, a la Microsoft Xbox360. Plain and simple.

But I doubt anyone else sees it that way. Let the speculation begin.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Come to think of it, I think I remember seeing that installer poster somewhere already - someone posted a copy of it on the 'net somewhere.

I wonder if the cable company will allow me to go to their office and pick up 2 cable cards, then go home and install them myself...or, will they force an installer to come out. 

I've never used cable card before. Do they typically allow customers to self-install cable cards into TV sets?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

classicX said:


> /me watches everyone drool over every little tidbit of information... and laughs.
> 
> Doesn't anyone see this as what it is: an information gathering operation? They want to know how many peopl eare interested in the S3, so they know just how much to hold back inventory, a la Microsoft Xbox360. Plain and simple.
> 
> But I doubt anyone else sees it that way. Let the speculation begin.


I have a post somewhere that the page at TiVo.com is for gathering interest info. I think it is so that TiVo can spread out limited S3 stock as best it can though. TiVo is not exactly running massive production runs so it can hold back stock


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

TiVotion said:


> Come to think of it, I think I remember seeing that installer poster somewhere already - someone posted a copy of it on the 'net somewhere.
> 
> I wonder if the cable company will allow me to go to their office and pick up 2 cable cards, then go home and install them myself...or, will they force an installer to come out.
> 
> I've never used cable card before. Do they typically allow customers to self-install cable cards into TV sets?


In general, it seems most of them like to roll a truck. Some have been able to persuade them not to and simply go in and pick them up. I assume there are a few companies out there that will have no issues with you just picking them up.


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## jauburn (May 18, 2006)

This sucks because Verizon FIOS charges about $3 a month for each cable card.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

jauburn said:


> This sucks because Verizon FIOS charges about $3 a month for each cable card.


Are you sure? I've seen folks saying Verizon is an "outlet" fee ($3/month per outlet, not per card). I haven't called to confirm, so I can't say for sure.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Not a problem, so long as it is reinserted into the same device. A CableCard is like the access cards used for satellite boxes in that it is tied to a specific box. CableCards and satellite boxes are also activated in much the same way -- there is a menu on each box with a sequence of numbers that you read off to the cable company when calling to activate.
> 
> You can't take the CableCard out of one device and stick it in another. Doing so can disable the CableCard, if the cable company enabled that security measure.


Glad to hear about the ability to reinsert a CableCARD!

But when a CableCARD is removed does the device's functionality automatically revert to exactly what it was before the CableCARD was installed? We get two channels in particular that aren't available from Comcast's regular STB's; one is a PBS station.


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## mumpower (Jul 24, 2003)

This thread has me excited as well as confused. My wife and I recently gave in and picked up an HDTV. We also had a summer hobby of upgrading TiVos. We currently have a 1039 hour, a 747 hour, a 560 hour dual tuner and a 340 hour we were planning to throw a 400 GB hard drive in this weekend. Three of the four still have several months left on their one year contracts. So, the introduction of Series 3 puts us in an awkward position in that we have two cable boxes. We would like to put a Series 3 unit on each one. We would particularly like this in place before the start of football season, but I'm guessing that's a pipe dream at this point.

The problem is that (to the best of my knowledge) our cable company doesn't use cablecard. We simply got a different box for HD when we upgraded our plan. I'll put a phone call into Knology later, but I asked the technician when he did the installation. He assured me Knology isn't in the cablecard business, at least not locally in Knoxville. Where would that leave us on Series 3? We have a TV and cable box with HDMI input, but we don't have a cablecard. Are we out of luck here until our cable company handles this differently? I thought the NY Times was saying cablecard wasn't going to work out anyway, so I am all confused over this turn of events. Is TiVo really putting all of its eggs in the cablecard basket, leaving all other potential HD customers in the lurch?


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have a post somewhere that the page at TiVo.com is for gathering interest info. I think it is so that TiVo can spread out limited S3 stock as best it can though. TiVo is not exactly running massive production runs so it can hold back stock


There is no demographic information taken on the signup page. How does this help them "spread out" their S3 stock?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

mumpower,
Almost every cable company is required to provide cable cards although many are spreading dis-information about them to discourage their use. Cable cards should works jsut fine with the possible exception of Switched Digital Video, but lets not get that whole discussion started here. There are other threads that beat the SDV horse to death.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

eric_mcgovern said:


> That is odd, either my cable company works a bit different or my TV does. When I look at the "Channel Listing" that my cable company provided, the HD Broadcast stations are 781, 782, and 786. On my TV with no cable card, if I tune to 781, its what is suppose to be on 781, etc. etc. It also identifies itself with "FOXHD", and shows the program name. I don't see why TiVo couldn't do the same.


It can. That channel is sent unencrypted (as it has to be, by law).


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Pony.....oh, Pony....wherefore art thou, Pony?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Are you sure? I've seen folks saying Verizon is an "outlet" fee ($3/month per outlet, not per card). I haven't called to confirm, so I can't say for sure.


Most CSRs probably don't understand the difference, but I've been told by management that it's an outlet (i.e. per TV) fee. Verizon will have multistream cards in a few months which will eliminate any confusion.

If you get a CSR at Comcast or Verizon that wants to charge you for two CableCards for one TV, ask to speak to their supervisor. Comcasts vary from region to region, but the Comcast where I am charges it as an outlet (per TV) fee as well.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Pony.....oh, Pony....wherefore art thou, Pony?


Pony hasn't posted since 8/9? I know he just got back from vacation or something...

The plot thickens!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

jeffrypennock said:


> Has TiVo ever done something like this before for a product release? How did that timeline play out?





ZeoTiVo said:


> Not that I have seen. The Dual Tuner DT series 2 was different in that TiVo wanted to reduce stocks of the single tuner series 2 first. So the DT was launched with a few days advance public warning...


And, if you'll recall, pages with barebones descriptions and (I think) an image of the DT popped up prematurely on Amazon.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

It would be nice to get some clarification on whether unencrypted qam will be available. I don't mind using OTA to get the local digital channels, but my cable company provides a few other channels that are unencrypted that would be nice to have as well.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

jfh3 said:


> Just saw this on tivo.com:
> 
> TiVo in HD! Coming soon...
> Sign up to receive information on TiVo® Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder
> ...


So when I fill in the fields and click submit I get no confirmation. It just takes me to the Tivo box sales page. Anybody else see this?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Welshdog said:


> So when I fill inthe fields and click submit I get no confirmation. It just takes me to the Tivo box sales page. Anybody else see this?


Isn't that exactly what it says will happen on that very page?


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

I don't know, does it?


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> *But all signs on the forum the past two days point to a release very soon *


Yeah, but those signs were based MOSTLY (but not exclusively) on someone's birthday.

Also, what is 'very soon'?

I called the TiVo sales phone number 877-BUY-TiVo and just asked. What she told me was "some time in October." I pressed her a little further and asked if that meant early October or late October and her response was "My guess is probably late in October just because they haven't said much to us yet about the Series 3."

I have NO IDEA what that's worth. Are the TiVo sales reps pretty in-the-know? It seems to me that it's possible that they might not say much to them about it until they tell them everything there is to know and that could happen tomorrow.

What I failed to ask and wish I had is if they're going to sell it online before it hits stores? If so, how much earlier? And is it the online sales that start in October is it in BestBuy in October (or is all that in October and not before)?


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## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

Welshdog said:


> So when I fill inthe fields and click submit I get no confirmation. It just takes me to the Tivo box sales page. Anybody else see this?


Yes I noticed that too.

Since the pages were put up only last night I just assumed that
the coding for accepting and confirming the entry of the e-mail address was not
quite ready yet.

Maybe in a few more days it will be more "intuitive", something that
we have all come to expect from TiVo......


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> it is imminent. There are signs on this forum for sure but I would rather not point them out but any week now for sure,


OMG! While I'm glad you think it's imminent and I'm pleased you shared this with us, I pissed the floor a little bit when you said you wouldn't point out the signs. I'm dieing to know what they are!!!!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jeffrypennock said:


> OMG! While I'm glad you think it's imminent and I'm pleased you shared this with us, I pissed the floor a little bit when you said you wouldn't point out the signs. I'm dieing to know what they are!!!!


I am not in the series 3 beta but I don't want to say anything more. The forum ebb and flow of the last few days is something that happens before a release. So the October release you got from the CSR sounds pretty accurate to me.

you can be as sarcastic as you want and Lord knows I can go sarcastic myself but there it is.


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

amjustice said:


> Digg away http://digg.com/gadgets/Tivo_Series_3_Information_is_Now_on_Tivo_com


Comeon everybody go digg, so this thing can get to the front page, the more hits the Series 3 page gets the more interest Tivo will see the sooner they are likely to let the cat out of the bag!


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I am not in the series 3 beta but I don't want to say anything more. The forum ebb and flow of the last few days is something that happens before a release. So the October release you got from the CSR sounds pretty accurate to me.
> 
> you can be as sarcastic as you want and Lord knows I can go sarcastic myself but there it is.


I thought you were implying something sooner that October. No?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jeffrypennock said:


> I thought you were implying something sooner that October. No?


well we usually have a distribution channel like Amazon or BEst Buy do something boneheaded and then a product is shown too early or someone that works in that arena publishes some stuff as they want the cred for breaking it just before the release . 8 or 9 more weeks for logistics to get worked out could happen. My bet is more toward the front of October but October 19th is my Birthday 

so I used the word imminent but more in the business distribution chain sense of a month or so.

PS TiVo typically makes the product available for sell from its site a few days before retail channels make it available.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

amjustice said:


> Comeon everybody go digg, so this thing can get to the front page, the more hits the Series 3 page gets the more interest Tivo will see the sooner they are likely to let the cat out of the bag!


And the higher the price will be! If Tivo see a high demand with limited stock on hand they'll be inclined to set the price higher.


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## lasergecko (Mar 13, 2003)

Welshdog said:


> So when I fill in the fields and click submit I get no confirmation. It just takes me to the Tivo box sales page. Anybody else see this?


*Everybody* else saw that since it very plainly says "Clicking "Submit" will take you to the Buy TiVo homepage." _directly_ below the Submit button.

How can this possibly be confusing?

Once again, Clicking "Submit" will take you to the Buy TiVo homepage.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ... My bet is more toward the front of October but October 19th is my Birthday


Well, "Lost" premieres on Oct. 4, so I'd love to have one for that!


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

lasergecko said:


> *Everybody* else saw that since it very plainly says "Clicking "Submit" will take you to the Buy TiVo homepage." _directly_ below the Submit button.
> 
> How can this possibly be confusing?
> 
> Once again, Clicking "Submit" will take you to the Buy TiVo homepage.


Nope, don't see it.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

eric_mcgovern said:


> That is odd, either my cable company works a bit different or my TV does. When I look at the "Channel Listing" that my cable company provided, the HD Broadcast stations are 781, 782, and 786. On my TV with no cable card, if I tune to 781, its what is suppose to be on 781, etc. etc. It also identifies itself with "FOXHD", and shows the program name. I don't see why TiVo couldn't do the same.
> 
> Now if they decide to start moving stuff around (something that has never happened to me), it could definitely be an issue.


Are you tuning to 781 on your cable box, or using your QAM tuner on your TV (if you even have one)? 

My HD channels using my QAM tuner built-in my Sony TV are all over the map and do not match the Comcast cable lineup at all.

I am disappointed to hear that I won't be able to take advantage of receiving HD channels via Basic cable. I don't want to subscribe to a digital package. I was plannning on saving a few bucks on my cable bill.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

ah30k said:


> I just noticed, is there only an optical digital audio out? I am currently using a copper digital audio cable.


2 choices.

Upgrade your Surround sound system to one that has optical digital inputs,
or get an Optical to Coaxial converter.

Here's the first Google hit on one.
http://www.impactacoustics.com/product.asp?cat_id=1007&sku=40019

phox


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> Well, "Lost" premieres on Oct. 4, so I'd love to have one for that!


Cool. Aren't they going to show all the epsiodes without weekly gaps this season? Like what is done with 24.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Welshdog said:


> Cool. Aren't they going to show all the epsiodes without weekly gaps this season? Like what is done with 24.


some shows without gap - then a long gap for some other show - then some more Lost without gap. I imagine a clip show in there somewhere as well


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> some shows without gap - then a long gap for some other show - then some more Lost without gap. I imagine a clip show in there somewhere as well


I believe it's the first six, then a two month break, then the final 17 or so.
Now, back on topic....GIMME


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

ah30k said:


> I just noticed, is there only an optical digital audio out? I am currently using a copper digital audio cable.


Along those same lines, can you do HDMI out for Video and sound through the optical. The reciever I have now doesnt do HDMI and while I would love to upgrade that as well getting the Series 3 should be a hard enough sell to my soon to be wife as is.


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

petew said:


> And the higher the price will be! If Tivo see a high demand with limited stock on hand they'll be inclined to set the price higher.


To late, its already been all over Engadget, Gizmodo and its just a matter of time before it hits the front page of Digg. Plus i am sure they already have the price figured out and arn't going to change it at the last minute.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

amjustice said:


> The reciever I have now doesnt do HDMI and while I would love to upgrade that as well getting the Series 3 should be a hard enough sell to my soon to be wife as is.


How about you sell your soon to be wife, then buy both pieces of equipment with the proceeds?


----------



## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

ah30k said:


> I just noticed, is there only an optical digital audio out? I am currently using a copper digital audio cable.


Yeah, few devices these days do coaxial digital audio, optical has taken the market. The S3 only has optical out for digital audio.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

TiVotion said:


> Come to think of it, I think I remember seeing that installer poster somewhere already - someone posted a copy of it on the 'net somewhere.


Here's one post with it.



> I wonder if the cable company will allow me to go to their office and pick up 2 cable cards, then go home and install them myself...or, will they force an installer to come out.
> 
> I've never used cable card before. Do they typically allow customers to self-install cable cards into TV sets?


Unfortunately most cable companies currently require a truck roll for an installer, but some are allowing self-installs. It can't hurt to ask.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

jeffrypennock said:


> Yeah, but those signs were based MOSTLY (but not exclusively) on someone's birthday.


 LOL

I don't think all the signs actually point to it being released on my birthday. However there are a lot of signs that point to it being released very soon. I was just hoping it would be on my brithday so that I could be right on my original guess.

Dan


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> And, if you'll recall, pages with barebones descriptions and (I think) an image of the DT popped up prematurely on Amazon.


off to search amazon....


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

megazone said:


> Yeah, few devices these days do coaxial digital audio, optical has taken the market. The S3 only has optical out for digital audio.


They sell converters for about $40...

http://www.cablestogo.com/product_list.asp?cat_id=504

Dan


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

mumpower said:


> The problem is that (to the best of my knowledge) our cable company doesn't use cablecard. We simply got a different box for HD when we upgraded our plan. I'll put a phone call into Knology later, but I asked the technician when he did the installation. He assured me Knology isn't in the cablecard business, at least not locally in Knoxville. Where would that leave us on Series 3?


It would mean you could use the S3 for analog cable and antenna (NTSC & ATSC) - but not digital cable. The S3 does NOT work with a cable box.

While most cable companies are required to supply CableCARD, there are exceptions for small cable companies so it may be possible that your local company does not offer them.



> We have a TV and cable box with HDMI input, but we don't have a cablecard. Are we out of luck here until our cable company handles this differently?


Yep.



> I thought the NY Times was saying cablecard wasn't going to work out anyway, so I am all confused over this turn of events.


Don't believe everything you read. ;-) There have been articles on both sides of the issue, that one was heavily influenced by the cable companies who would love to sandbag CableCARD. The fact is it is an FCC mandate for most cable companies to supply them.



> Is TiVo really putting all of its eggs in the cablecard basket, leaving all other potential HD customers in the lurch?


CableCARD is the *only* basket. It isn't feasible to record HD from the outputs of a cable box today. The hardware isn't available for a consumer level device. CableCARD gives access to the digital streams to allow direct recording.

TiVo has other options - they've licensed their software to Comcast, and today announced a similar deal with Cox. So the TiVo software will be showing up on some cable boxes too. But you're cable company would need to license it.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

WeKnSmith said:


> Take a look at this FAQ. DirecTV offers a HD DVR with TiVo software:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=151443


for at least a little while longer....

and with limited future potential for new HD cahnnels....


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

megazone said:


> CableCARD is the *only* basket. It isn't feasible to record HD from the outputs of a cable box today.


Actually it's not the "only" basket. There is also a mandate in place that requires cable companies to supply, upon request, an external STB with an active FireWire port which would also give a box like a TiVo access to the digital stream. However if they went that route then inorder to support dual tuners you'd need two boxes, which could cost $10-$20 a month in rental fees as opposed to $3-$10 a month for two CableCARDs, or $1.50-$5 for a single multi-stream card. Plus from what I've read the communications protocol used for FireWire STBs is fairly unreliable, so it probably wouldn't have been a good way to go.

Dan


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## mumpower (Jul 24, 2003)

Thanks for the great info, megazone.


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## peteypete (Feb 3, 2004)

Pony is busy getting the box out.

PS. I have Tivo giftcards. PM me if you're interested.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Actually it's not the "only" basket. There is also a mandate in place that requires cable companies to supply, upon request, an external STB with an active FireWire port which would also give a box like a TiVo access to the digital stream.


Is that really the compressed digital stream, or is it a DVI/HDMI like digital stream, which isn't the same thing?


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

megazone said:


> Is that really the compressed digital stream, or is it a DVI/HDMI like digital stream, which isn't the same thing?


It's an MPEG2 TS stream. Or probably more correctly the data stream as transmitted over the cable.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

petew said:


> Or probably more correctly the data stream as transmitted over the cable.


LOL 

Anyway, yes, Firewire/1394 provides a compressed stream recordable by (reasonably priced) CE devices.

BTW, cable companies are also required to support a (minimal) subset of DTVLink commands via Firewire ... on, off, status, channel change ...

Which means you could (theoretically) make an external recording device that attached via Firewire (and only Firewire) ... no IR blasters or anything else required.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> Do you know what would happen if after getting a CableCARD installed I removed it?
> 
> ...And later reinserted it?


In addition to what the previous poster said, you'll also have to reprogram the channel assignments in the TVGOS guide for any of the digital channels you tune (since ABC-HD won't be tuned on channel 231 any more, but 89.1 or whatever the numbers are), since the channel mapping provided by the CableCard will no longer be in effect.

If you put the card back in, change the affected TVGOS channel assignments back. 

Pretty sure the DHG needs to be power cycled if the CableCard status changes.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> When you request the CableCard, you'll want to ask for a multistream card (available in a few markets now, and more in the near future).


LOL! True, but most people are going to get lucky if they get a CSR that knows what a CableCARD is.

The odds of getting one that knows what a multistream card is, let alone if one is available, will probably be close to zero.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

eric_mcgovern said:


> I too will be a bit disappointed if I have to get a cable card (which mean a digital package) to use the Series 3. I was hoping basic cable and in the clear HD broadcasts would be sufficient.


From what I understand, you won't NEED a cable card. If you have analog cable and want to get HD via OTA (antenna), you won't need Cable Card.

Can you get HD in the clear (i.e. QAM) from your cable company without a digital cable package? if so, then you ought to be good there as well. If not, I think you could STILL do without the cable card, as long as you didn't mind missing out on those digital channels that aren't part of the analog lineup.


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## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

eric_mcgovern said:


> My TV has a QAM tuner (since it has a cable card slot, but I am not using it at the moment), and the channels are mapped correctly. Just as a stated, FOXHD (as an example) is 781 on my TV and in the Channel Guide flyer and on the HD boxes provided by the cable company. All of the unscrambled digital stations are where they should be just by using my TV's QAM tuner (from wall to TV).


What is your HDTV's make and model. I have never heard of such functionality, but wouldn't be surprised to hear that it exists.


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## ckelly5 (Feb 27, 2004)

The sooner I can have one under my tv instead of this motorola DVR, the better. 

ASAP TiVo, ASAP. I'll even settle for a few bugs, and no HME at this point, just get it into my living room!


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## chandler1818 (Sep 8, 2004)

Long time Series 2 user. I think TiVO is smoking though with the Series 3. You must use Cable card if you are going to use with cable. I'm a comcast subscriber so, I can't use Series 3 with on demand. so, i have to give up functionality to stick with tivo. that's asinine. because i am moving soon to a hd and series 2 can't record it, i regret to say i will probably have to switch to comcast dvr. pretty short sigthed of tivo.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

chandler1818 said:


> Long time Series 2 user. I think TiVO is smoking though with the Series 3. You must use Cable card if you are going to use with cable. I'm a comcast subscriber so, I can't use Series 3 with on demand. so, i have to give up functionality to stick with tivo. that's asinine. because i am moving soon to a hd and series 2 can't record it, i regret to say i will probably have to switch to comcast dvr. pretty short sigthed of tivo.


you don't have to give up a STB from the cable co. to use a Series 3 TiVo. Just use it along side the TiVo as yet anotehr box plugged into the TV if you want the OnDemmand and PPV stuff your cable co. offers.

Also, don't froget Comcast will have a TiVo DVR. So, if you want just one box, go for that when it becomes available.


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

chandler1818 said:


> Long time Series 2 user. I think TiVO is smoking though with the Series 3. You must use Cable card if you are going to use with cable. I'm a comcast subscriber so, I can't use Series 3 with on demand. so, i have to give up functionality to stick with tivo. that's asinine. because i am moving soon to a hd and series 2 can't record it, i regret to say i will probably have to switch to comcast dvr. pretty short sigthed of tivo.


If I'm not mistaken, Comcast has a deal with TiVo to create a TiVo based DVR for their subscribers...


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

chandler1818 said:


> pretty short sigthed of tivo.


Yes, those fools at TiVo didn't bother to force all of the cable companies in the country to design, implement, and deploy by now a 2-way cable card technology that would allow the series 3 boxes to access PPV and VOD. It's not only short-sighted, it's lazy, and sloppy.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

chandler1818 said:


> Long time Series 2 user. I think TiVO is smoking though with the Series 3. You must use Cable card if you are going to use with cable. I'm a comcast subscriber so, I can't use Series 3 with on demand. so, i have to give up functionality to stick with tivo. that's asinine. because i am moving soon to a hd and series 2 can't record it, i regret to say i will probably have to switch to comcast dvr. pretty short sigthed of tivo.


Without a 2 way CC what could you expect TiVo to do, wait another year or two. I agree with you its a problem, I have said so for before (you cant use PPV also) but I can't think of any solution for TiVo as their are at the mercy of the cable systems. With switch channels coming to some cable systems, that is another blow to the Series 3. The Series 3 will replace the cable box and cable HD-DVR but there will be little on no cost savings and you will be giving up the unlimited warranty the cable system gives you on the hardware (on sight no less). For now the Series 3 will give you a much better user interface but few non TiVo users will know about that. A Comcast tech said that they are working on a version of MRV for the Moto boxes and on using an external hard drive for more storage. (some SA boxes do that now) All of us will have to decide for ourselves if the Series 3 is worth the investment (whatever that may be) after it comes out.


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

amjustice said:


> The reciever I have now doesnt do HDMI and while I would love to upgrade that as well getting the Series 3 should be a hard enough sell to my soon to be wife as is.





ChuckyBox said:


> How about you sell your soon to be wife, then buy both pieces of equipment with the proceeds?


Somehow I dont think that would go over too well either


----------



## stevereis (Feb 24, 2006)

dt_dc said:


> Anyway, yes, Firewire/1394 provides a compressed stream recordable by (reasonably priced) CE devices.
> 
> BTW, cable companies are also required to support a (minimal) subset of DTVLink commands via Firewire ... on, off, status, channel change ...
> 
> Which means you could (theoretically) make an external recording device that attached via Firewire (and only Firewire) ... no IR blasters or anything else required.


Cable companies are required to give you a box with working Firewire ports for this purpose if you request one.

BTW, there are 2 devices that I know of that can do this, with the caveat that they are designed to work with a TV with Firewire and TVGOS to control them. I do not know of a 'smart' device that can control a cable box and record from Firewire.

1) RCA's DVR2160 /2080 and 
2) Toshiba Symbio

I have heard the RCA cannot playback one show while recording another but can to live TV trick play. As I said, these have no user I/F at all so you must have a TV or box with TVGOS to control it. I think the Symbio is pretty similar. Toshiba says it's only supported for their own Toshiba TV's with TVGOS/Firewire but it supposedly works with others. I toyed with getting one of these when I got my Samsung DLP with CableCARD & Firewire a few months ago but decided it wasn't worth the money or the hassle after seeing how slow the TVGOS was on the TV. It's even slower than my Humax TiVo after 7.3.1.

The RCA has been discontinued for a while but can still be found around. Looks like Amazon has the 80GB unit for $88. 
It looks like the Symbio is also discontinued now as well. Google shows it can be had for $99.

If it didn't look like the S3 release was imminent, I would be tempted to check the Symbio out at that price.


----------



## chandler1818 (Sep 8, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> Yes, those fools at TiVo didn't bother to force all of the cable companies in the country to design, implement, and deploy by now a 2-way cable card technology that would allow the series 3 boxes to access PPV and VOD. It's not only short-sighted, it's lazy, and sloppy.


That makes no sense. TiVo knows there is a limitation with cable cards yet insists on developing a product that only works with cable cards. Infantile sarcasm aside, it seems ridiculous to require customers to give up functionality to use tivo and to then try to cast blame on the cable companies.


----------



## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> Can you get HD in the clear (i.e. QAM) from your cable company without a digital cable package? if so, then you ought to be good there as well. If not, I think you could STILL do without the cable card, as long as you didn't mind missing out on those digital channels that aren't part of the analog lineup.


Ought to be... but only if Tivo's guide data has the correct mappings for the "HD in the clear".

Eric's QAM HD channels #'s matching his digital line up seems to be the execption not the norm.  I have 3 sets of possible channel listings for HD content. OTA, QAM, and digital cable. I fear Tivo will only have digital cable's. I will feel very lucky if it has my area's OTA lineup. Man, I hope this will be custimizable in some way.



terryfost said:


> What is your HDTV's make and model. I have never heard of such functionality, but wouldn't be surprised to hear that it exists.


I'm curious too. My Sony sure doesn't behave that way.


----------



## mfogarty5 (Apr 27, 2006)

chandler1818 said:


> That makes no sense. TiVo knows there is a limitation with cable cards yet insists on developing a product that only works with cable cards. Infantile sarcasm aside, it seems ridiculous to require customers to give up functionality to use tivo and to then try to cast blame on the cable companies.


Chandler,

Since you seem so knowledgable how would you have designed the Series 3? AFAIK cablecard is the ONLY way for someone to get encrytped digital channels like ESPN and HBO WITHOUT USING A CABLE BOX. I am more than willing to give up PPV and "Watch a dog poop on demand" that I get on my awful SA 8300 in exchange for a Series3.

The only other way for you to get TiVo and encrypted digital channels is for cable companies to install TiVo software on the cable companies' box. Oh yeah, I forgot that TiVo is doing that with Comcast and now Cox.

Again I ask what would you have done differently?

As far as I can tell, TiVo is doing everything possible to get you what you want.


----------



## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

mfogarty5 said:


> AFAIK cablecard is the ONLY way for someone to get encrytped digital channels like ESPN and HBO WITHOUT USING A CABLE BOX.


A cable box with FireWire output, and thus FireWire input to a TiVo would be a reasonable solution.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

chandler1818 said:


> It seems ridiculous to require customers to give up functionality to use tivo and to then try to cast blame on the cable companies.


But the cable companies are the ones that have been dragging their heels on the standard that would allow for two-way communication.

So the cable companies deserve all the blame.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

btwyx said:


> A cable box with FireWire output, and thus FireWire input to a TiVo would be a reasonable solution.


Did you happen to notice that the post you quoted had the words "without using a cable box" in all caps?

Also using two cable boxes, even with FireWire, for dual tuner support is not really practical. Cable companies regularly charge $5-$10 per box, so the monthly expense would be large. Plus there would be the expense of having to have those cable boxes plugged in all the time, and just the general uglyness of having two cable boxes for every S3 TiVo. I think people are much more likely to use CableCards at $1.50-$3.00 each, especially once multi-stream cards start to hit the main stream.

Dan


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## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

Also, have a link to http://www.tivo.com/series3hdDvr.faqs.asp

I hope they plan to update the FAQS soon.

Tim S


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Did you happen to notice that the post you quoted had the words "without using a cable box" in all caps?
> 
> Also using two cable boxes, even with FireWire, for dual tuner support is not really practical. Cable companies regularly charge $5-$10 per box, so the monthly expense would be large. Plus there would be the expense of having to have those cable boxes plugged in all the time, and just the general uglyness of having two cable boxes for every S3 TiVo. I think people are much more likely to use CableCards at $1.50-$3.00 each, especially once multi-stream cards start to hit the main stream.
> 
> Dan


 :up: ugly.

and plus the firewire port would only be putting out digital channels - what about the analog channels tuned by the cable box(es)? You'd need two firewire inputs, and two analog inputs. Some people need help figuring out where the ANT cable goes, let alone 5 extra connections.

Seems the trouble of getting room for all that stuff is not worth the benefit.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

classicX said:


> :up: ugly.


The only equipment that should be visible in ones living room is the tv itself when being viewed. All other equipment should be hidden in some fashion. TV equipment is not furniture. It is not beautiful. It is not a good thing.

Martha "Welshdog" Stewart


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Welshdog said:


> The only equipment that should be visible in ones living room is the tv itself when being viewed. All other equipment should be hidden in some fashion. TV equipment is not furniture. It is not beautiful. It is not a good thing.
> 
> Martha "Welshdog" Stewart


I am fine with my TiVos being visible because they have recording lights that are useful info sometimes. The S3 would definitley be visible in my setup as it will have the name of the show recording on each tuner visible - even more useful to me. YMMV

but cable boxes - no, not so much


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I am fine with my TiVos being visible because they have recording lights that are useful info sometimes. The S3 would definitley be visible in my setup as it will have the name of the show recording on each tuner visible - even more useful to me. YMMV
> 
> but cable boxes - no, not so much


To add to that, the Series 3 will have a display of what is recording on the front, why would you want to hide that, I think that is going to be one of the best new features!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

amjustice said:


> To add to that, the Series 3 will have a display of what is recording on the front, why would you want to hide that, I think that is going to be one of the best new features!





ZeoTiVo said:


> The S3 would definitley be visible in my setup as it will have the name of the show recording on each tuner visible


umm, thanks for the add


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> In addition to what the previous poster said, you'll also have to reprogram the channel assignments in the TVGOS guide for any of the digital channels you tune (since ABC-HD won't be tuned on channel 231 any more, but 89.1 or whatever the numbers are), since the channel mapping provided by the CableCard will no longer be in effect.
> 
> If you put the card back in, change the affected TVGOS channel assignments back.
> 
> Pretty sure the DHG needs to be power cycled if the CableCard status changes.


Thanks!

Probably Series 3 will be (close to being?) available when I get back in mid-September and am able to fool around at length with CableCARD in the Sony DVR. A lot of questions may be answered by then. Manually mapping TVGOS is a drag (but at least it can be done.) Hopefully Series 3 will be capable of automapping channel line-ups when CableCARDS aren't installed.


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> umm, thanks for the add


Just another reason to not post while still half asleep!


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Did you happen to notice that the post you quoted had the words "without using a cable box" in all caps?
> 
> Also using two cable boxes, even with FireWire, for dual tuner support is not really practical. Cable companies regularly charge $5-$10 per box, so the monthly expense would be large. Plus there would be the expense of having to have those cable boxes plugged in all the time, and just the general uglyness of having two cable boxes for every S3 TiVo. I think people are much more likely to use CableCards at $1.50-$3.00 each, especially once multi-stream cards start to hit the main stream.
> 
> Dan


Well, two cable boxes would be clunky, but one cable box, even with a $5. hi-def charge (a standard digital STB is "free") plus another CableCARD (probably another few bucks.) would be a fair tradeoff for two CableCARDS for a few bucks.

I don't think that having a cable box "plugged in all the time" is any kind of a problem for most people, and a customer would be foolish not to get at least the "free" STB UNLESS s/he could get a free CableCARD in place of it.

I've noticed that every time I compare picture quality among the various available tuners, the two digital cable STB's (one, a dual-tuner hi-def cable DVR) ALWAYS provide the best quality pictures, whether in standard or high def.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Did you happen to notice that the post you quoted had the words "without using a cable box" in all caps?


I did, but I still think its a reasonable solution. Using FireWire has none of the drawbacks traditionally associated with using a cable box. It allows you to control the box without hacks (such as IR), and the unmolested digital data stream is transferred. It keeps all the advantages the S3 is going for, not including FireWire always seems like an oversight. So putting "without using a cable box" in all caps seems like just an arbitrary restriction at that point. Why not use one if there's no disadvantage?

It'd also be a reasonable way to get digital data out of the TiVo.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

classicX said:


> and plus the firewire port would only be putting out digital channels - what about the analog channels tuned by the cable box(es)? You'd need two firewire inputs, and two analog inputs. Some people need help figuring out where the ANT cable goes, let alone 5 extra connections.


All FireWire ports are equal, its a bus, it doesn't matter what you plug where, as long as you don't create a loop. It would work just as well with one FireWire port. The TiVo is quite capable of receiving analog on its own, so doesn't need any more cable inputs. Your argument is pretty silly.

You also don't need to have 2 cable boxes, you could run it with one, just like a DT.

I'm not saying the FireWire would replace cable card, it could suppliment it. You add one (maybe 2) ports and it opens up a whole world of possibilities.

Edit: And as far as I know cable boxes will put out analog channels (suitably digitised) over the FireWire, so you're just being silly.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

btwyx said:


> You also don't need to have 2 cable boxes, you could run it with one, just like a DT.


My thoughts exactly. Having the option of a firewire connection would be a short term solution for SDV channels and the asymetric logic is already available in the DT. One STB and One Cablecard should work for most situations. And presumably the Series 3 with one cablecard can recieve 2 QAM channels provided that at least one is not encrytped.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

amjustice said:


> To add to that, the Series 3 will have a display of what is recording on the front, why would you want to hide that,


The first time I saw a real S3 (at a meet in January) showing the title recording the first thing that occured to several people was "can you turn that off". There are something you might not want some people to see that you're recording. (Such as pron when your parents are visiting.)


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Welshdog said:


> The only equipment that should be visible in ones living room is the tv itself when being viewed. All other equipment should be hidden in some fashion. TV equipment is not furniture. It is not beautiful. It is not a good thing.
> 
> Martha "Welshdog" Stewart


FWIW all of my equipment is in the closet behind my plasma (with the speakers removed). The only thing visible is the TV and the two in-wall speakers.

But not everyone has the luxury of hiding their equipment. And even when they do, space is a real concern.

It would still be ugly to me, because I'd be AWARE of all the wires back there. I hate that.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> Hopefully Series 3 will be capable of automapping channel line-ups when CableCARDS aren't installed.


 Could only possibly work for channels that have PSIP information containing station identification and in my area that's only selected OTA broadcast HD channels that the cable company is passing along (ABCHD, NBCHD, CBSHD and a handful of others). The vast majority of digital channels in my lineup have no PSIP information and therefore mappings would have to be manual. To make things worse the channels move around quite a lot such that even if manual mappings are possible with the S3 you would have to update them regularly.

I get the impression from the tivo.com announcement that they are expecting most S3 customers with cable to use cablecard (a reasonable assumption IMO). I suspect at least initially clear QAM support and proper mapping to guide lineups for all channels will be limited at best.


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## sharding (Feb 11, 2001)

btwyx said:


> Edit: And as far as I know cable boxes will put out analog channels (suitably digitised) over the FireWire, so you're just being silly.


In some areas, you don't need analog anyway. My cable box (Motorola 3412 from Comcast) doesn't even have an analog tuner. All of the channels are available in digital form.

I'm not a huge fan of the cable box/firewire solution, but I don't think analog channels are one of the drawbacks.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

classicX said:


> FWIW all of my equipment is in the closet behind my plasma (with the speakers removed). The only thing visible is the TV and the two in-wall speakers.
> 
> But not everyone has the luxury of hiding their equipment. And even when they do, space is a real concern.
> 
> It would still be ugly to me, because I'd be AWARE of all the wires back there. I hate that.


I feel your pain. I too sense the presence of ugly tangled cables.

We have a stairs that turns halfway up with a landing. The space underneath was not used. A number of years ago I got out the sledge and smashed through the drywall to see what was under there. I re-routed a plumbing vent pipe and added some electrical outlets,video cables and ethernet. Hired a carpenter to make some simple cabinets (the one luxe touch is the perforated stainless steel sheet we used in the door panels) and voila! No more unsightly equipment in the living room.

AND room for an S3!


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## TerryD (May 17, 2002)

btwyx said:


> A cable box with FireWire output, and thus FireWire input to a TiVo would be a reasonable solution.


I seem to recall some discussion when the HR10-250 (HD DirecTiVo) came out regarding FireWire support. I believe that there was a technical limitation to FireWire. If I recall correctly, it had to do with the ability to overlay graphics and text over what is being captured by the box, without actually recording it. This would make it impossible for the guide/info/timeline to be displayed and seriously detract from the TiVo experience.

Again, this is only fuzzy recollection from a few years ago and I could be mistaken. If anyone can definitively confirm or refute this, please respond.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

moyekj said:


> Could only possibly work for channels that have PSIP information containing station identification and in my area that's only selected OTA broadcast HD channels that the cable company is passing along (ABCHD, NBCHD, CBSHD and a handful of others). The vast majority of digital channels in my lineup have no PSIP information and therefore mappings would have to be manual. To make things worse the channels move around quite a lot such that even if manual mappings are possible with the S3 you would have to update them regularly.
> 
> I get the impression from the tivo.com announcement that they are expecting most S3 customers with cable to use cablecard (a reasonable assumption IMO). I suspect at least initially clear QAM support and proper mapping to guide lineups for all channels will be limited at best.


Good points!

The potential problem is that designing a manual channel mapping procedure requires a great deal of attention. There are a few options that Sony's hi-def CableCARD DVR's upgraded TVGOS could have provided which would have made manual channel mapping almost effortless.

It may not have been cost effective for TiVo (or Sony) to invest resources toward that end if most users were expected to employ CableCARDS which apparently map channels automatically. So if Series 3's requires users to manually input channel data I hope that TiVo's procedure is no worse than Sony's, which overall is better than anything else I've seen so far. If Series 3's procedure is a lot better, I'll be very pleasantly surprised!


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

TerryD said:


> I seem to recall some discussion when the HR10-250 (HD DirecTiVo) came out regarding FireWire support. I believe that there was a technical limitation to FireWire. If I recall correctly, it had to do with the ability to overlay graphics and text over what is being captured by the box, without actually recording it. This would make it impossible for the guide/info/timeline to be displayed and seriously detract from the TiVo experience.


With the HR10-250, I was wanting the FireWire so I could archive things to a D-VHS tape.

However, a there is a standard to do control overlays on FireWire, but I can't curretly remember what its called. and, b its not necessary. The idea isn't to make a display output, its to make a transport output, all you need is the clean signal. Also c, in this case we were talking about input, not output.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

classicX said:


> FWIW all of my equipment is in the closet behind my plasma (with the speakers removed). The only thing visible is the TV and the two in-wall speakers.
> 
> But not everyone has the luxury of hiding their equipment. And even when they do, space is a real concern.
> 
> It would still be ugly to me, because I'd be AWARE of all the wires back there. I hate that.


Oh, man, y' wanna' see snakepits? I've got snakepits.

But y'know what; I don't care! It's actually a kind of art; akin to industrial "form following function" as exemplified by *computers*, *telephone switchrooms*, and *electric substations*.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

mumpower said:


> The problem is that (to the best of my knowledge) our cable company doesn't use cablecard. We simply got a different box for HD when we upgraded our plan. I'll put a phone call into Knology later, but I asked the technician when he did the installation. He assured me Knology isn't in the cablecard business, at least not locally in Knoxville. Where would that leave us on Series 3?


You would not be able to use it with your encrypted pay channels.
You would have to either watch them direct or TiVo them in SD with a Series 2 DVR on a cable box.



> We have a TV and cable box with HDMI input, but we don't have a cablecard. Are we out of luck here until our cable company handles this differently?


For using the Series 3 on encrypted channels, yes.



> Is TiVo really putting all of its eggs in the cablecard basket, leaving all other potential HD customers in the lurch?


For HD, yes. They will still offer the Series 2 though.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> It may not have been cost effective for TiVo (or Sony) to invest resources toward that end if most users were expected to employ CableCARDS which apparently map channels automatically. So if Series 3's requires users to manually input channel data I hope that TiVo's procedure is no worse than Sony's, which overall is better than anything else I've seen so far. If Series 3's procedure is a lot better, I'll be very pleasantly surprised!


I don't care if the S3 procedure for manually mapping QAM channels is tedious or not - I just want the ability.

The Sony process is tedious, but at least it exists.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo doesn't do tedious. It's got to be easy otherwise it wont make the cut.

Dan


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## lasergecko (Mar 13, 2003)

Welshdog said:


> Nope, don't see it.


You have a seriously screwed up computer, then.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jfh3 said:


> I don't care if the S3 procedure for manually mapping QAM channels is tedious or not - I just want the ability.
> 
> The Sony process is tedious, but at least it exists.


No way is TiVo going to give each TiVo Series 3 the ability to map channels by the user, it would have to be done on TiVos servers and their not going to let users into their servers. TiVo makes it a pain for Apt CATV systems because they have to maintain the data. TiVo maintains the channel data for each ZIP and system/channels available at that ZIP code. You are going to have to use the CC mapping to use TiVo as intended.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

lasergecko said:


> You have a seriously screwed up computer, then.


Wait. Wait.

Lemme look.

I . . . I . . . ahhh . . . ummmm.

I think I see it, errrrrr . . . is that . . . maaayyy beeeeee

I got it . . . I got it . . .

Nope, I ain't got it.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo doesn't do tedious. It's got to be easy otherwise it won't make the cut.
> 
> Dan


Channel selection from Guided Set-up used to be tedious as hell back in TiVo's standard-def salad days!. As jfh3 said, tedious doesn't matter (it's a one time task) nearly as much as the ability to manually map a channel line-up. If Series 3 can't automatically map a line-up and doesn't offer manual channel mapping, Series 3 won't make the cut.


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## andydumi (Jun 26, 2006)

manual mapping may be nice. but i look forward to being able to actually remove channels from the guide and lineup, as my comcast box shows me tons of channels i dont care about and never want to see.
thats gonna be a huge step up from comcast boxes for me.
and i hope i can turn off the front display in the tivo. or at least reduce it to something simple like the series 2. i like the red light, green light simplicity. i dont care whats recording, as i probably know what i scheduled, or i can just hit a button and see whats being recorded.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

lessd said:


> No way is TiVo going to give each TiVo Series 3 the ability to map channels by the user, it would have to be done on TiVos servers and their not going to let users into their servers. TiVo makes it a pain for Apt CATV systems because they have to maintain the data. TiVo maintains the channel data for each ZIP and system/channels available at that ZIP code. You are going to have to use the CC mapping to use TiVo as intended.


No, it wouldn't have to be done on the servers at all. Just use a local lookup table on the Tivo.

Have a channel guide option. Pick what Tivo thinks as channel 231 but tell the tuner to tune to 89.1 (or whatever). This could EASILY be an option off the existing channels screen.

It woulkd be nice if there was a setup option maintained on the Tivo servers, but as often as some MSOs change the mappings, it might be impractical.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jfh3 said:


> No, it wouldn't have to be done on the servers at all. Just use a local lookup table on the Tivo.
> 
> Have a channel guide option. Pick what Tivo thinks as channel 231 but tell the tuner to tune to 89.1 (or whatever). This could EASILY be an option off the existing channels screen.
> 
> It woulkd be nice if there was a setup option maintained on the Tivo servers, but as often as some MSOs change the mappings, it might be impractical.


Do you believe the current hardware (series 2) has the capability now, It could be done in the TiVo hardware if TiVo wanted but I don't think it can be done with just a software upgrade. I don't think TiVo puts anything in the hardware they don't have to for cost reasons, the channel mapping is now done in their servers not in each TiVo itself. The channel information is held in the hard drive of the TiVo (downloaded from the TiVo servers) and called up as needed. (that why changing channels can be slow) The cable can change their lineup 3 times a month as long as the cable box and or CC re-map to the published lineup the customer would not know. The cable co may use this as a form of scrambling to get people to use cable boxes or CC. I can't even re-map the TV channels on my computers ATI TV, it comes in from an external source, I just have to give out my ZIP and cable service and the correct info comes into my computer.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

This is beginning to concern me, as well. I had the Sony DHG unit for several months, and the only way I was able to successfully receive all my are OTA HD channels was by re-mapping. If the S3 won't allow this, it's gonna be a problem. I'm not confident the TiVo guide, as good as it's been, will be able to handle all the nuances of digital channel mapping with multiple subs involved.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

megazone said:


> No. Why? Because it still wouldn't be able to record HD from the satellite receivers. They don't expose the raw digital streams and it isn't practical to record from HDMI or component in a consumer level product. So you'd, at best, record SD - and the S2 can do that, so why buy an S3 to get S2 performance?
> 
> Satellite users will either go with the satellite DVR for HD recording, or just because it is the cheap & easy option, or they can use an S2 for SD recording from a receiver. The S3 is aimed at the HDTV market where TiVo can record digital streams directly - ATSC from antenna and digital cable with CableCARD.
> 
> Speaking of HD, my 61" Samsung was just delivered - now I need to assemble the stand and wire it.


I know I'm late into the discussion but for those of us that either: (i) live in Canada or elsewhere; or (ii) have a non-major MSO cable provider; we'd like to be able to buy the Series 3 now so that when cablecard DOES become an option we'll have a device that can use it.

I have been aching to upgrade my system for a long time now. I don't want to buy a Series 2 this year only to discover that next year my cableco supports Cablecard.

THAT'S why TiVo should include an IR/blaster s-video in-option as they do on Series 2s. If they do, sign me up as the first purchaser!

I'm hoping that with the feedback we've given since this beast was first shown, that TiVo has decided to include s-video or component in with an IR blaster as an option

...Dale


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## chandler1818 (Sep 8, 2004)

THAT'S why TiVo should include an IR/blaster s-video in-option as they do on Series 2s. If they do, sign me up as the first purchaser!

I'm hoping that with the feedback we've given since this beast was first shown, that TiVo has decided to include s-video or component in with an IR blaster as an option

...Dale[/QUOTE]

I hear you Dale but I think you can forget it. The fact is the TiVo website now says you must have cable card to use. Given how few sets are coming with cable card i think this more than anything else will contribute to tivo's downfall. i know i am getting ready to buy a new 40 in. sony hd-ready and it has not cable card option. so, unfortunately, i am going to have to forego waiting for series 3 and go with comcast dvr. tivo made some bad choices in developing this thing but cable card was the worst.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

chandler1818 said:


> The fact is the TiVo website now says you must have cable card to use. Given how few sets are coming with cable card i think this more than anything else will contribute to tivo's downfall.


You don't need a TV that supports CableCARD, it is the Series 3 supports CableCARD. You'll only need CableCARD in the Series 3 to recieve the encrypted digital channels and, possibly, to map the unencrypted QAM channels so that they can be linked to their guide data.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

This isn't the first time somebody's been confused by the "my TV doesn't support cablecard issue". Tivo should probably attack this misunderstanding now before it starts affecting sales. How about an update to the cablecard FAQ that makes that perfectly clear?


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## chandler1818 (Sep 8, 2004)

greg_burns said:


> This isn't the first time somebody's been confused by the "my TV doesn't support cablecard issue". Tivo should probably attack this misunderstanding now before it starts affecting sales. How about an update to the cablecard FAQ that makes that perfectly clear?


So, you can use Series 3 with a tv that does not have cablecard capabilities?


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

QUESTION 1: Does the Series 3 have an ATSC Tuner BUILT IN? 

Or does it just have a coax input that can take content FROM an ATSC Tuner? Humm... as I type this that doesn't make sense because without the tuner it couldn't change the channel. 

OK, can someone confirm that it has an ATSC tuner and the "Antenna In" coax-input is where you attach an antenna? 

If so, this may be a short term solution for me. I live in downtown Toronto, just a few blocks from the CN Tower where all the local HDTV stations have their antennas. Perhaps, if the TiVo Series 3 has an ATSC Tuner, I could use that to record my prime-time HD shows off the air. 

I could then ditch my Rogers SFA 8300HD box (which I despise). I have a secondary digital tuner box that I own that I could still use to feed my Series 1 for all the other non-HD digital channels I want and have the secondary analogue tuner on the TiVo Series 3 record conflicting shows from analogue. 

DOES THIS SOUND LIKE IT WOULD WORK? 

I guess I'd loose my high-def movie channels but, hey, I can live with that so long as I could still record SD-digital movies on my other S1 TiVo for now. 

QUESTION 2: Does anyone have suggestions on an affordable ATSC antenna? 

I could place beside my condo window. It's about 20 feet from the TV so I need to get a cable over to it. I've never seriously considered this before so I'm rather week on my knowledge of how OTA HD recording works. Or, better yet, can anyone give a link to a website that discussess ATSC antenna options for high-rise condos? My Dell 4200 Plasma has an ATSC Tuner built in that I've never tried. If using the S3 with an ATSC-tuner built in is a viable option, I'll go out and buy an ATSC antenna and cable before buying an S3 to see if I get enough HD stations in Toronto to make it worth the while. 

QUESTION 3: How does picking an OTA channel work when you also have cable? 

I've had a TiVo for 7 years and never recorded OTA. If I want to tell TiVo to record a show off the ATSC Tuner (and not the analogue) how do I do that. So, let's say I want to record LOST off the ATSC-antenna but it is also on analogue cable. But, I'd want to record another TV show off the analogue channel at the same time. Can I tell TiVo specifically to record one show off the antenna and another off the analogue cable? If LOST is on, let's say the local Canadian network Global OTA and on the analogue cable signal, how do I tell it to record from global OTA and not global on the analogue cable - especially if they have the same "channel number". This is probably a very basic question for those who have recorded OTA for years but I honestly have no idea how TiVo handles that. 

Many thanks. 

...Dale


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

chandler1818 said:


> So, you can use Series 3 with a tv that does not have cablecard capabilities?


Sure. You connect from S3 to TV via HDMI or component (RG&B) cables. Think about it. The CC tunes the channels for the S3 to record. If the card was in your TV, how could the S3 control it?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Dajad said:


> QUESTION 1: Does the Series 3 have an ATSC Tuner BUILT IN?


Yes

Edit: On a side-note the new DT's have neither ATSC nor NTSC tuner. By FCC mandate, to have an NTSC tuner you must include an ATSC one, Tivo chose neither for the DTs.



Dajad said:


> QUESTION 2: Does anyone have suggestions on an affordable ATSC antenna?


Try the cheapest pair of (amplified) rabbit ears you can find to start with. Works for me. Check out http://antennaweb.org



Dajad said:


> QUESTION 3: How does picking an OTA channel work when you also have cable?


The OTA channel lineup has got to be in the guide data. That is what all the fret is about with the QAM channels via cable. Hopefully Tivo makes it custimizable in some way in case the guide data is incomplete.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> So, you can use Series 3 with a tv that does not have cablecard capabilities?


Absolutely.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Wow, thanks for the fast responses. 

QUESTION 3 FOLLOW-UP


I'm still a bit fuzzy on OTA vs. Cable recording. How does it work with current NTSC OTA recording when cable is also present - or perhaps this isn't a practical question? Because if someone has cable why would they also want to record NTSC OTA? 

QUESTION 4: When the two-way cable cards come out in the future, will they work with the Series III.

I personally do NOT ever want to use two-way cards because I never purchase premium services from my cable company, but I have a mole inside Rogers, my local Canadian cable provider, and they said that they likely WILL support cable cards once the two-way standard is fully ratified and implemented. So, that will give me some hope of future cable card use in Canada - well, assuming the TiVo will be able to handle the two-way card for one way digital content decoding/recording.

...Dale


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## andyf (Feb 23, 2000)

3. I don't think they would, but what about the people who don't have cable. I know it's an expensive box for NTSC OTA only but maybe some people are waiting for HD to come to their neck of woods. Also, for some people NTSC OTA can be a better picture than what their cable company provides.

4. All the experts say NO. Apparantly the Series 3 doesn't have the necesssary H/W to certify for CableCard 2.


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## stevereis (Feb 24, 2006)

Dajad said:


> QUESTION 3 FOLLOW-UP
> I'm still a bit fuzzy on OTA vs. Cable recording. How does it work with current NTSC OTA recording when cable is also present - or perhaps this isn't a practical question? Because if someone has cable why would they also want to record NTSC OTA?


1) The S3, unlike S2 boxes before S2DT, has 2 coax inputs, 1 for cable and 1 for antenna. 
2) The reason for wanting OTA recording is ATSC - that's digital TV, SD or HD. These digital channels look great and, in some cases, the cable co's do not carry all the local stuff you can get ATSC in digital for or even HD. I know mine does not. 
As others have said, by 2007 (can't remember if it's Jan or July), you will not be able to sell any TV or OTA TV tuner that cannot tune ATSC (digital). So anything that tunes analog NTSC must also have a digital tuner. BTW, the FCC has now set the analog NTSC OTA turn-off date to mid-2009 and everyone thinks that's going to stick.



Dajad said:


> QUESTION 4: When the two-way cable cards come out in the future, will they work with the Series III.


Yes, they will work in the S3 because they'll be backward compatible. However, the S3 will not be able to take advantage of any of the 2-way features, only the multi-stream features. M-cards, or multi-stream cards are just coming out (so called 1.5 cards; i.e., 1.0 one-way cards with multi-stream) that S3 can use as well. With M-cards or 2.0 cards, you should only need 1 CCard in the S3 to get dual tuner cable recordings. With 1.0 cards, you need 2. There is still debate as to whether you could use the dual-tuner capabilities for OTA NTSC/ATSC and single tuner for cable with one 1.0 Card. In other words, no one outside TiVo or the S3-Beta program knows for sure if S3 supports asymmetric channel lineups like the S2DT.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

greg_burns said:


> "Originally Posted by Dajad
> QUESTION 2: Does anyone have suggestions on an affordable ATSC antenna?"
> Try the cheapest pair of (amplified) rabbit ears you can find to start with. Works for me. Check out http://antennaweb.org


I'd suggest starting with an antenna which will likely work for you, rather than the cheapest. Antenna web will give recommendations on the sort of antenna to think about. Until you know what sort of antenna you need its pointless giving recomendations. Also individual circumstances can complicate matters.

(For example, rabit ears ($2.50 from Rat Shack) will only pick up one station for me, the rest are on UHF. Antenna web says I should be able use a small multi-directional Antenna ($25 from Rat Shack) but that didn't work because of trees in exactly the wrong place. I've ended up with the biggest directional antenna you can find, with pre-amp, and still I get drop outs in bad weather.)


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

stevereis said:


> Yes, they will work in the S3 because they'll be backward compatible. However, the S3 will not be able to take advantage of any of the 2-way features, only the multi-stream features. M-cards, or multi-stream cards are just coming out (so called 1.5 cards; i.e., 1.0 one-way cards with multi-stream) that S3 can use as well. With M-cards or 2.0 cards, you should only need 1 CCard in the S3 to get dual tuner cable recordings. With 1.0 cards, you need 2. There is still debate as to whether you could use the dual-tuner capabilities for OTA NTSC/ATSC and single tuner for cable with one 1.0 Card. In other words, no one outside TiVo or the S3-Beta program knows for sure if S3 supports asymmetric channel lineups like the S2DT.


Hoo ha! That's exactly what I was hoping. I won't EVER want the two-way functionality, just the one way functionality (within the two-way standard) once Rogers finally starts supporting two-way cable cards. And multi-stream support is just icing on the cake. THAT's how much I HATE HATE HATE the SFA 8300HD PVR. I'd rather pay for two cable-cards (if I had that option with Rogers - which I don't) with an S3 than use this piece of crap that I can't wait to get out of my entertainment center.



btwyx said:


> I'd suggest starting with an antenna which will likely work for you, rather than the cheapest. Antenna web will give recommendations on the sort of antenna to think about. Until you know what sort of antenna you need its pointless giving recomendations. Also individual circumstances can complicate matters.
> 
> (For example, rabit ears ($2.50 from Rat Shack) will only pick up one station for me, the rest are on UHF. Antenna web says I should be able use a small multi-directional Antenna ($25 from Rat Shack) but that didn't work because of trees in exactly the wrong place. I've ended up with the biggest directional antenna you can find, with pre-amp, and still I get drop outs in bad weather.)


Well as for me, I am on the 26th floor with a clear line of site to the world's tallest free standing structure (the CN Tower) just a couple miles away - it looms before me. all the HD Channels of relevance broadcast from there. So I figure I just need to put something in the window, point it at the tower and I should be good to go.

I just have NO clue what to get because I have never used an antenna in my life - its always been cable. And the http://antennaweb.org site recommended by Greg, explicitly does not cover indoor antennas, only outdoor ones. I guess I can just buy whatever Radio Shack has and try it and then return it if it doesn't work. Perhpas that will be my Sunday project.

Thanks all!


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

btwyx said:


> For example, rabit ears ($2.50 from Rat Shack) will only pick up one station for me, the rest are on UHF.


Granted, I know next to nothing about antennas. The stations I do receive, with amplified rabbit ears (those are suppose to be for VHF reception right?) are all UHF according to antennaweb.org. Go figure.

I do know if I turn off the amplification, I can't get anything in my area. 

Edit: I take that back. My rabbit ears antenna also has a UHF loop. It is an RCA ANT200B.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Dajad said:


> Perhpas that will be my Sunday project.


I assume your TV has ATSC tuner already to test with. Or did you get an S3 already and just aren't sharing.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

greg_burns said:


> I assume your TV has ATSC tuner already to test with. Or did you get an S3 already and just aren't sharing.


NO, TiVo hasn't even started distributing S2's at retail in Canada so I'm not on the S3 beta list - wish I was. My Dell 4200 Plasma has an HD tuner in it. I've had the beast for a year and a half (love it by the way) and I've never tried it because Rogers has everything I ever want (I subscribe to almost every channel) except a decent HD PVR. The SFA 8300HD PVR is a NIGHTMARE to use when you are used to TiVo - but I use it to record my HD whilie keeping my other two lifetimed S1s recording everything else I want.

I used to have cheapo UHF antennas floating around that I gave away years ago. Funny thing is, I live, eat and breath PVRs as TV-watching goes. I don't understand how people watch live TV anymore - for anything. So I figured, why even bother checking out the HD-OTA since I can't record it anyway - so I've had an HD tuner all this time and never bothered to try.

It's after 6:00 now and the stores are closed ... so I'll have to wait until Sunday to do some shopping. Radio Shack's franchisee also wen't belly up here in Canada a few months ago so I'll be hiking it up to Best Buy (which thankfully just started opening Toronto stores in the last year or so - no Circuit City here yet).

I'm really getting stoked about the possibility of using the S3 even without Cablecard. Seems like it will work for me (with my S1 recording all my other digital cable channels).

...Dale


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## jhays (Apr 25, 2004)

Many people (including me) have had very good luck with a small unobtrusive indoor antenna called the Silver Sensor. It costs about $25US.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

QUESTION 5: How much compression can Tivo get in HD-OTA recordings.

Sorry to hijack this thread but it occured to me that HD-OTA recordings will likely REALLY eat up the S3's hard drive. HD received via cable-card will be compressed. As with DirecTiVo, the S3 should be able to record an hour of HD per gig??? because the signal is already compressed? As I understand DirecTiVo, the compressed signal is recorded straight up - bit for bit.

But, the S3 would need to have a PS3 cell processor in it to accept straight in-the clear HDTV signals OTA and compress them to any degree. This makes me think that the HDTV signals recorded off air are going to REALLY chew up and spit out the S3 hard drive. If this is the case I'll probably need to get the 9th Tea or weaknees to put their largest hard drive in an S3 to get any recording capacity out of this since most of my recordings would be OTA ATSC HD content (that is until Rogers starts supporting Cable Card 2 some time in the next decade).

Am I missing something here?


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

jhays said:


> Many people (including me) have had very good luck with a small unobtrusive indoor antenna called the Silver Sensor. It costs about $25US.


Thanks jhays. I see that Dell has that one on their website. Any idea if Best Buy stocks this beast. www.Tiger.ca (Tiger Direct Canada) doesn't seem to.

There seems to be two products called the Silver Sensor.

This one by Zenith

and

This one by Philips

Which are you referring to?

...Dale


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Dajad said:


> QUESTION 5: How much compression can Tivo get in HD-OTA recordings.


I don't believe any HD recordings will be compressed at all with the S3. And I thought it was more like 8.5GB-10GB/hr for HD @ 1080i(?) That is news to me that is will be compressed when coming via cable.

The S3 will support external storage via an eSata drive.

I edited my post above to mention my antenna type; RCA-ANT200B.


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## jhays (Apr 25, 2004)

My Silver Sensor is the Zenith. I wasn't aware of the Phillips version.


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## PhillyGuy (Mar 12, 2006)

jhays said:


> My Silver Sensor is the Zenith. I wasn't aware of the Phillips version.


The Zenith version works much better although they look the same.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

PhillyGuy said:


> The Zenith version works much better although they look the same.


I had the Zenith version, and it worked so-so. I never felt it lived up to the hype.


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well we usually have a distribution channel like Amazon or BEst Buy do something boneheaded and then a product is shown too early or someone that works in that arena publishes some stuff as they want the cred for breaking it just before the release . 8 or 9 more weeks for logistics to get worked out could happen. My bet is more toward the front of October but October 19th is my Birthday
> 
> so I used the word imminent but more in the business distribution chain sense of a month or so.
> 
> PS TiVo typically makes the product available for sell from its site a few days before retail channels make it available.


Ah no. They don't want "cred". They want your "credit". As in credit cards. They put products up early so they can get preorders. They are retailers not forums. They don't need the "cred" of getting product up early. They just want to beat the each other to your wallet.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Dajad said:


> QUESTION 5: How much compression can Tivo get in HD-OTA recordings.
> 
> Sorry to hijack this thread but it occured to me that HD-OTA recordings will likely REALLY eat up the S3's hard drive. HD received via cable-card will be compressed. As with DirecTiVo, the S3 should be able to record an hour of HD per gig??? because the signal is already compressed? As I understand DirecTiVo, the compressed signal is recorded straight up - bit for bit.
> 
> ...


The 250gb disk the S3 comes with will be good for 30 hours of HD programming.

I added a 300gb drive to my HR10-250 which also came with a 250gb drive,
and I now have 70 hours of HD capability.
(470 hours of SD content, but I really only use it for HD programming)

phox


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Dajad said:


> QUESTION 5: How much compression can Tivo get in HD-OTA recordings.


The S3 will do no compression on digital channels. It'll record the digital signal exactly as it receves. That puts the question of compression as to what's sent to you.

An ATSC signal is 19.4 Mb/s I think. That's 8.5GB per hour or there abouts. Not all of that signal is necessarily one channel though. They can fit 5 SD channels in that space, the TiVo will record any one of those channels (not the whole stream). The broadcaster can decide how to split this up, they can send one HD channel for the whole stream, or in exteme cases 1 HD channel (severly degraded) and 4SD channels at the same time (one local station does that). Its somewhat uncertain how much that HD channel will take up. My HD DTiVo says its "up to" 77 hours for its 600GB.

If you receive this through a cable company, they could potentially monkey around with that signal and compress it more, destroy the quality, but give them more bandwidth to use. DirecTV does that on satellite, I don't know if cable companies do.


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## texmex (Nov 21, 2005)

Dajad said:


> QUESTION 5: How much compression can Tivo get in HD-OTA recordings.
> 
> Sorry to hijack this thread but it occured to me that HD-OTA recordings will likely REALLY eat up the S3's hard drive. HD received via cable-card will be compressed. As with DirecTiVo, the S3 should be able to record an hour of HD per gig??? because the signal is already compressed? As I understand DirecTiVo, the compressed signal is recorded straight up - bit for bit.
> 
> ...


What you're missing is that OTA ATSC HD content is in fact compressed MPEG-2. The digital HD streams from your cable company are also compressed MPEG-2. In both cases the S3 will simply write the stream to the hard drive without any further compression. The bitrates from both will vary depending on the source:
- High bitrate OTA HD will top out at ~19mbps (no multi-casting)
- Low bitrate (multi-casting) OTA HD may get as low as 12-14mbps
- I don't have cable, but I can only imagine that bitrates will vary between systems and even by channel. They may pass network HD untouched (19mbps), or they may smash it into HD-Lite like D* (1280x1080i, 10-12mbps).

I don't know where you came up with 1hr of HD per gig; a 16mbps stream will require about 7GB/hour. The DirecTivo comes with a 250GB drive and advertises 30 hours of HD recording - that's 8.3GB/hour. In reality, D* streams are SOOOOO over-compressed that you can record more than 30 hours.

The only thing that the S3 will compress is analog cable*, and in this task it will behave just like any S2 TiVo.

* didn't bother to check if the S3 will have an analog NTSC tuner, in which case it will also compress those streams.


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

texmex said:


> * didn't bother to check if the S3 will have an analog NTSC tuner, in which case it will also compress those streams.


It will.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Thanks guys, I don't know what drugs I was on but I had it in my head that cable systems take the unadultrated OTA HD signal and during the multiplex process compress it further than what the HD broadcaster did. But, yes, I understand how the whole process works and now that I think about it, it does make sense that the amount of HD space should be about the same for cablecard as for OTA HD. 

I think I was getting confused because non-HD DirecTV signals use much less hard drive space than comparable NTSC broadcasts recorded on standard S1s and S2s. That was because TiVo has to compress the NTSC analogue on the fly but just had to copy the DirecTV bits as they came in. Somehow that got muddled up in my head when I did my thinking. 

Anyway, I realized Best Buy was open until 9:00 and I went shopping. I came home with two UHF antennas to try - one was non-powered Jensen (manufactured by Thompson) and the other is a powered Philips - the only two models I could find out in the wild on this Saturday night. Fortunately I can take them both back as they suck. I'll do some experimenting tonight and tomorrow to see if I can pull in all the major networks. If I can, I will be S3 bound, if I can't, well I may try a couple others before I give up.

...Dale


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Dajad - Do you have any type of attic area in your condo? If you could fit it, the Channel Master 4221 is an excellent UHF antenna, but its footprint may be too much for you. You can find it here... http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm
It's generally highly regarded along with its larger brother, the CM 4228.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

lessd said:


> Do you believe the current hardware (series 2) has the capability now, It could be done in the TiVo hardware if TiVo wanted but I don't think it can be done with just a software upgrade.


Not applicable to the Series 2. And not a hardware issue anyway.

It ABSOLUTELY can be done in software - the logic involved in the required function is TRIVIAL for anyone that's ever done any programming.

As I pointed out in another thread, this would also be a function that the cable DVRs don't have (mostly because the cable companies require a minimal level of digital service to get a DVR in the first place) and would be another feature that would distinquish a Series 3 from a cable DVR running Tivo software.


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## TK421 (Feb 25, 2002)

Since you only live a few blocks away from the broadcast tower, I'm thinking you'll do fine. I live 2-3 miles away from the tower that broadcasts most of our HD channels and I'm able to get them all with rabbit ears in the basement!


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

chandler1818 said:


> THAT'S why TiVo should include an IR/blaster s-video in-option as they do on Series 2s. If they do, sign me up as the first purchaser!
> 
> I'm hoping that with the feedback we've given since this beast was first shown, that TiVo has decided to include s-video or component in with an IR blaster as an option
> 
> ...Dale


I hear you Dale but I think you can forget it. The fact is the TiVo website now says you must have cable card to use. Given how few sets are coming with cable card i think this more than anything else will contribute to tivo's downfall. i know i am getting ready to buy a new 40 in. sony hd-ready and it has not cable card option. so, unfortunately, i am going to have to forego waiting for series 3 and go with comcast dvr. tivo made some bad choices in developing this thing but cable card was the worst.[/QUOTE]

Your right, fewer HD-ready sets are now coming out WITHOUT cable card slot(s). This was noted in a CNet article. Reason given as to why: The slot added about $100 dollars to the cost for each set, and foot dragging by the cable providers over a standard for cable card 2 and cable card 3. Also, any new model had to tested to meet the changing cable card standard. Just became easier to build TV's without the slot. IMHO anyone who can obtain service from Comcast or Cox should just sign up for the DVR and HD service and enjoy "Lost" in all it's HD glory. When the TiVo service become available, just request it and enjoy your new TiVo. If it break, just call for a replacement and if cabe go with SDV, who care. Now for people with Time-Warner I foresee an announcement of a deal with TiVo real soon. TiVo won big time. TiVo is becoming what they intend to be, a DVR service provider, not a "box" seller.
The Series 3 will probably come out, but from TiVo, I don't see "Best Buy" selling them, if they do it will be for the Christmas season and after that till there gone. If you plan to buy one, make sure you can obtain a cable card before part with your cash, because I a feeling that the cards will be in "short supply" or "not available at this time". This will most likely be the last "box" from TiVo. New DVR's will come from cable provider and base on the Series 3 design, another win for TiVo. I know some of you will disagree with my opinion, but this is the direction I feel things are heading.


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

> Given how few sets are coming with cable card i think this more than anything else will contribute to tivo's downfall. i know i am getting ready to buy a new 40 in. sony hd-ready and it has not cable card option. so, unfortunately, i am going to have to forego waiting for series 3 and go with comcast dvr. tivo made some bad choices in developing this thing but cable card was the worst.


I think you're a little confused. The TV doesn't need a CableCARD slot, because the TiVo has one! (Two, actually.) You plug the CableCARD(s) into the TiVo and then the TiVo into your TV. The S3 TiVo will absolutely work with your new 40 inch Sony!

(Oh, and going with CableCARD was no choice at all. It's the ONLY way to get direct access to the digital bitstream, without a licensing agreement ala the HD DirecTiVo. To record HD on a variety of cable systems, CableCARD is the ONLY choice.)

E


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

Dajad said:


> I came home with two UHF antennas to try - one was non-powered Jensen (manufactured by Thompson) and the other is a powered Philips - the only two models I could find out in the wild on this Saturday night. Fortunately I can take them both back as they suck. I'll do some experimenting tonight and tomorrow to see if I can pull in all the major networks. If I can, I will be S3 bound, if I can't, well I may try a couple others before I give up.
> 
> ...Dale


I've heard this antenna is good.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/lacrosse.html


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Johncv said:


> The Series 3 will probably come out, but from TiVo, I don't see "Best Buy" selling them, if they do it will be for the Christmas season and after that till there gone.


Why in the world do you think Best Buy won't sell the Series 3 or only sell them for a limited time?

The Best Buy (and Magnolia) sales reps are going to love the S3, especially those that sell HD sets.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

etsolow said:


> I think you're a little confused.


As are you. That quote shouldn't be attributed to *Johncv*, but *chandler1818* instead.

A lot of sloppy html pasting going on.


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

I wondered what that extra [/QUOTE] in there was all about.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> Why in the world do you think Best Buy won't sell the Series 3 or only sell them for a limited time?
> 
> The Best Buy (and Magnolia) sales reps are going to love the S3, especially those that sell HD sets.


Because the cable provider Comcast, Cox, and Time-Warner will give you TiVo service for free for 3 months if when you sign up for there DVR service, better yet sign up for the full package of internet and phone service and will give you a year of TiVo service at no charge. So which deal look good a $600, $700, or $800 dollar S3 which need two cable cards and no VOD, and TiVo service $13 dollar a month or (checking my Cox statement) cable service 98.95 include basic service 12.95, expanded service 31.45, digital service 12.00, movie package no charge, sports package no charge, variety package no charge, discovery channels no charge, HBO and Showtime 10.50 each with free VOD, Cox HD no charge, HD expanded tier no charge, channel 4 HD (local baseball and football) no charge, DVR recorder service 9.95, service plan 2.95 (If anything go wrong they fix it or replace it), digital receiver DVR/HD 9.00, total cable service $98.95, internet $29.95, and phone service for this bill $20.70. Total bill for July $156.70. Look like to me most people will go with the cable service, get everything on one bill and not worry about it when need to be fix.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Johncv said:


> Because the cable provider Comcast, Cox, and Time-Warner will give you TiVo service for free for 3 months if when you sign up for there DVR service, better yet sign up for the full package of internet and phone service and will give you a year of TiVo service at no charge.


Wow, where did you learn of these promotions?


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Bierboy said:


> Dajad - Do you have any type of attic area in your condo? If you could fit it, the Channel Master 4221 is an excellent UHF antenna, but its footprint may be too much for you. You can find it here... http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm
> It's generally highly regarded along with its larger brother, the CM 4228.


Well, there is no access to any rooftop or attic here. I've got LOTS and LOTS of concrete around me which I'm finding to be a REAL problem.

I have definate line of site to the CN Tower. I thought I had line of site to Buffalo but so far I can't get a single Buffalo station. My building is wedge/cheese shaped and I'm on the North western facing wedge. So the CN tower is off to the left and I thought so too was Buffalo.

I'm getting abysmal results so far.

The Philips MANT510 was 100% useless. There was no manual in the box. When I turned it on, it received NO channels. When I turned it off it received a couple channels - fewer than the cheaper Jenson.

The Jenson TV 621 Antenna works reasonably well, though unpredictably. I can pull in three or four Candian HDTV channnels/networks (CBC, CTV and City) with it but so far no U.S. stations. And, of course, when I'm holding the antenna it works better than when I position it somewhere. But, so far at least, I need to hang the antenna out the window a few inches for it to to consistently pull in 3 stations (something I can't do permanently - against condo rules.).

UPDATE: After studying online listings, CTV is the most important Canadian network to get most of my U.S. Prime time shows. I can now receive CTV with the Jenson inside the window (no hanging outside). The others are less consistent. But so far I have no amp and I'll definatly get a better antenna IF this is going to work for me.

I'm considering the DB2 if Tiger Direct will let me return it if it doesn't work. Any idea if the DB2 is substantailly bettert than the other two I tried?

Otherwise, I think I'm SOL on my Series 3 compromise.

...Dale


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## andyf (Feb 23, 2000)

You can get the DB2 about $13 cheaper (pays for shipping) at antennasdirect.com. I use the DB4 in my attic and it works really well.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Dajad said:


> Well, there is no access to any rooftop or attic here. I've got LOTS and LOTS of concrete around me which I'm finding to be a REAL problem.
> 
> I have definate line of site to the CN Tower. I thought I had line of site to Buffalo but so far I can't get a single Buffalo station. My building is wedge/cheese shaped and I'm on the North western facing wedge. So the CN tower is off to the left and I thought so too was Buffalo.


Not all stations may be broadcasting from that CN tower. I'm in a highrise in the DC area and get most stations well except for ABC which is broadcasting from behind my building a couple of miles away. Not sure what the range is for HD, but Toronto->Buffalo seems far for a little indoor antenna.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

davezatz said:


> Not all stations may be broadcasting from that CN tower. I'm in a highrise in the DC area and get most stations well except for ABC which is broadcasting from behind my building a couple of miles away. Not sure what the range is for HD, but Toronto->Buffalo seems far for a little indoor antenna.


I am on the 26th floor with Lake Ontario directly in front of us and we can see New York state from my building. So, I'm pretty certain we have line of site to Buffalo - though my unit may not.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Dajad said:


> I have definate line of site to the CN Tower. I thought I had line of site to Buffalo but so far I can't get a single Buffalo station. My building is wedge/cheese shaped and I'm on the North western facing wedge. So the CN tower is off to the left and I thought so too was Buffalo.


Well, if it makes you feel any better, I'm in Buffalo and can't get Toronto stations 

I just have a small indoor antenna, though.

FYI: Buffalo stations are broadcast from 2 locations - some stations are in the south (Boston, NY) and others are in the north (Grand Island).

If you couldn't get Buffalo's FOX station (WUTV) you may try again, they recently (like in the past week) amped up their power big time.


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## elrcastor (Mar 7, 2004)

The Terk TV55 Might do the trick

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005T3A9/002-8629544-2502425?v=glance&n=172282


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

elrcastor said:


> The Terk TV55 Might do the trick
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005T3A9/002-8629544-2502425?v=glance&n=172282


Ugh....avoid Terks at ALL costs....they're junk.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Johncv said:


> Look like to me most people will go with the cable service, get everything on one bill and not worry about it when need to be fix.


And that general argument would apply to the Series 2 boxes as well. So do you think Best Buy is going to stop selling the Series 2?

The Series 3 isn't for the average cable customer. But Best Buy and other retailers sell lots of stuff that's not for the average customer.

As long as Best Buy has a marketing agreement with Tivo, they will sell both the "mass market Tivo" (Series 2) and the "high end Tivo" (Series 3).


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Dajad said:


> I've got LOTS and LOTS of concrete around me which I'm finding to be a REAL problem.


Which is a recipe for multipath interference, which has symptoms like:


> works reasonably well, though unpredictably.


It makes the signals come and go. The cure for multipath is better directionality (which often means bigger). The Zenith Silver sensor has a good reputation for this sort of thing.


Dajad said:


> I'm considering the DB2


They make a point of talking about its lack of directionality, that may not be what you want if you're suffering from multi-path. I'm a little surprised by that, it looks like 1/4 of my big antenna, which is quite directional. (Mutl-path is a killer in this area, too many mountains.)


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

ah30k said:


> Wow, where did you learn of these promotions?


I work for a major communication provider where I live (not Cox or PacBell). One of our reps who was working with Cox on a business deal ask about the TiVo upgrade. The response was "It coming sooner then we expect and the majority of our DVR's user are ready to sign on and were going to have a big promotion to let people know about our DVR service with TiVo". The other cable provides are going to do this same thing.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Johncv said:


> I work for a major communication provider where I live (not Cox or PacBell). One of our reps who was working with Cox on a business deal ask about the TiVo upgrade. The response was "It coming sooner then we expect and the majority of our DVR's user are ready to sign on and were going to have a big promotion to let people know about our DVR service with TiVo". The other cable provides are going to do this same thing.


it makes sense given the current legal climate for DVRs - the thing we have not heard yet is what hardware they will use. We know TiVo is working on a port to Motorolla hardware but have not heard anything about Scientific Atlantic hardware. Since the Comcast deal has been worked on for a while it would be a simple thing to style the UI for Cox and have software for Motorolla ready early next year.
Any word on what type of hardware?


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> And that general argument would apply to the Series 2 boxes as well. So do you think Best Buy is going to stop selling the Series 2?
> 
> The Series 3 isn't for the average cable customer. But Best Buy and other retailers sell lots of stuff that's not for the average customer.
> 
> As long as Best Buy has a marketing agreement with Tivo, they will sell both the "mass market Tivo" (Series 2) and the "high end Tivo" (Series 3).


When the agreement end, it probably will not be renew once the cable provides start offering TiVo service. Best Buy most likely has an opt out cause.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> it makes sense given the current legal climate for DVRs - the thing we have not heard yet is what hardware they will use. We know TiVo is working on a port to Motorolla hardware but have not heard anything about Scientific Atlantic hardware. Since the Comcast deal has been worked on for a while it would be a simple thing to style the UI for Cox and have software for Motorolla ready early next year.
> Any word on what type of hardware?


Type of hardware? Not sure what your asking. Here where I live all the boxes are Scientifc-Atlanta. TiVo could have a flash upgrade for SA boxes ready to go. Comcast build there own boxes, so could be they are building a new box around the S3 without cable cards. That what I would do.


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## carsonstuart (Jun 6, 2002)

I am late to this thread but I have checked pages 1,2,5-7 and do not see this question: 
When the Series 2 first came out I was allowed to transfer my lifetime subscription from my series1 to my series2. 
Given the current pricing for Tivo subscription plans (Whoa, when did that change?  ) will I be able to transfer my series2 lifetime plan to a series3?

carson


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

carsonstuart said:


> I am late to this thread but I have checked pages 1,2,5-7 and do not see this question:
> When the Series 2 first came out I was allowed to transfer my lifetime subscription from my series1 to my series2.
> Given the current pricing for Tivo subscription plans (Whoa, when did that change?  ) will I be able to transfer my series2 lifetime plan to a series3?
> 
> carson


May want to see this thread
Please Offer: Til Dec 31, 2006, One Time, Lifetime transfer.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

carsonstuart said:


> will I be able to transfer my series2 lifetime plan to a series3?


No.


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## carsonstuart (Jun 6, 2002)

May want to see this thread
Please Offer: Til Dec 31, 2006, One Time, Lifetime transfer.

Thanks, that thread does not bode well for my lifetime subscriptions,
carson


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

carsonstuart said:


> May want to see this thread
> Please Offer: Til Dec 31, 2006, One Time, Lifetime transfer.
> 
> Thanks, that thread does not bode well for my lifetime subscriptions,
> carson


But your lifetimed S2 makes you eligible for MSD w/ an S3. :up:

What that price will be isn't known yet.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

carsonstuart said:


> I am late to this thread but I have checked pages 1,2,5-7 and do not see this question:
> When the Series 2 first came out I was allowed to transfer my lifetime subscription from my series1 to my series2.
> Given the current pricing for Tivo subscription plans (Whoa, when did that change?  ) will I be able to transfer my series2 lifetime plan to a series3?
> 
> carson


*Uh* *uh*! "WITH RESPECT TO ANY NEW TIVO SERVICE SUBSCRIPTION ACTIVATED ON OR AFTER SEPTEMBER 6, 2005, YOU AGREE TO SUBSCRIBE TO THE TIVO SERVICE FOR NO LESS THAN 12 MONTHS OR LONGER DEPENDING UPON YOUR SERVICE SUBSCRIPTION PLAN (THE "SERVICE COMMITMENT")."


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## infinitespecter (Jul 23, 2004)

A Best Buy employee has posted pricing and availability information for the S3 on AVSForums. To quote him... 

"I work at Best Buy and it popped up in our system today - its "In-Stock" date is 9/17/2006 with a Best Buy SKU of 7974418 (UPC of 400079744186 and Model TCD648250B).

The price is $799.99

Thought all of you would like to know - That "In-Stock" date is for our warehouses - the "Street Date" field is left blank - but I am guessing "Coming Soon" is really damn soon."


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

$799.99? Oh good lord. I had this thing pegged at around $400... 

Well, screw that.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

TiVotion said:


> $799.99? Oh good lord. I had this thing pegged at around $400...


Many of us have been saying for a long time it will be very expensive when it first ships. Wait 6-12 months and it'll be much lower.

And if that's MSRP then we still don't know about rebates, etc.

But you might want to change your signature.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

megazone said:


> But you might want to change your signature.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Sorry to have carried on so long about ATSC antennas on this thread. I have moved my ongoing antenna quest to a more appropriate forum:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=415312&postcount=130

A similarly situated Toronto resident is able to access the following stations:

02-1 : NBC-HD
02-2 : some weather channel
05-1 : CBC-HD
09-1 : CTV-HD
17-0 : WNED-SD, analogue feed it seems, rather clear
19-0 : TVO-SD, analogue feed, kinda poor
23-1 : CBS-HD
23-2 : another weather channel
23-3 : dunno what this is, but perfectly clear
25-1 : CBC-FR-HD
41-0 : Global-SD, analogue but clear
47-0 : OMNI 1, analogue and decent
49-0 : UPN-SD, analogue and decent
57-1 : CityTV-HD
66-1 : SunTV-HD
69-0 : OMNI 2, analogue and decent

I'm hoping to find the right antenna/pre-amp combo to get me similar results. If I get anywhere close than an S3 with my grandfathered Lifetime sub is the route I'll be taking. Though $799 PLUS larger hard drive plus transfer into Cdn $ may be too much for me at this time.

...Dale


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TiVotion said:


> $799.99? Oh good lord. I had this thing pegged at around $400...


Why did you have it "pegged" at that? The range given before was $500 - $800. Nobody as far as I know has seriously mentioned any possibility of it being <$500.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MickeS said:


> Why did you have it "pegged" at that? The range given before was $500 - $800. Nobody as far as I know has seriously mentioned any possibility of it being <$500.


some were going with the price of DirectTV HD DVR


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## bpratt (Nov 20, 2004)

> I don't believe any HD recordings will be compressed at all with the S3. And I thought it was more like 8.5GB-10GB/hr for HD @ 1080i(?) That is news to me that is will be compressed when coming via cable.


Everything you receive in HD, including OTA HD is compressed and mostly broadcast as MPEG 2 data. If it were not compressed, 1080i is about 417 Gig / hour. MPEG 2 compression is about a 55:1 ratio which makes most 1080i broadcasts about 7.5 to 8 Gig / hour.

Cable and satellite providers are now reducing the 1080i standard (1080 lines of 1920 pixels) to something less (1080 lines of 1440 or 1280 pixels) to reduce the bandwidth required. DirecTV is switching to a MPEG 4 format which will compress at about 150:1.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bpratt said:


> Everything you receive in HD, including OTA HD is compressed and mostly broadcast as MPEG 2 data. If it were not compressed, 1080i is about 417 Gig / hour. MPEG 2 compression is about a 55:1 ratio which makes most 1080i broadcasts about 7.5 to 8 Gig / hour.
> 
> Cable and satellite providers are now reducing the 1080i standard (1080 lines of 1920 pixels) to something less (1080 lines of 1440 or 1280 pixels) to reduce the bandwidth required. DirecTV is switching to a MPEG 4 format which will compress at about 150:1.


He of course meant compression on the receiver end (the TiVo), not on the broadcaster end.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

WHOO HOO!!!!

I am delighted to report that after MUCH agony, my new DB2 Antenna DOES work better than any of the others I tried so far. I can now reliably and consistently pull in about 7 to 8 HD channels at once including ABC, CBS, CTV, CBS, SUN, PBS and CITY. ALL of these stations, including ABC and CBS, seem to be coming off the CN Tower (or some-how bouncing off it). On and off I can also pick up NBC, UPN and various 1 or two other PBS stations. I have not yet received FOX.

Depending on how I point the antenna I have picked up a total of up to 16 stations (some being SD sub channels though) but I can never get more than 10 to 12 at once (including both HD and sub-channel SD stations).

The key to receiving THE most stations at once from where I am (about 1 mile from the CN Tower) was tilting the DB2 antenna UP towards the top of the tower. Till tonight, I was only pointing the antenna horizontally in a north-western direction towards the tower. I never really focused on tilting the antenna UP. From where I am it's about a 35 degree INCLINE UP to the transmitters on the top of the tower.

I discovered this by accident when I set the antenna on the floor and leaned it against the wall to test scanning with the antenna on the floor (the bottom of the window is a foot off the floor). At that point I was was VERY close to giving up. To my EXTREME surprise the stations just peeled in on that scan! On the floor, tilting up, the antenna has a largely clear and direct line of site to the top of the tower. I have since determined that I need to set the antenna a foot or so off the floor and tilted up at about 35 degrees for optimum results.

So, now I have a solution!!

I still need to get some kind of stand I can put this on with a permanent 35 degree tilt up. I've been doing my testing with the antenna clamped to a broom handle. I probably need something like a short camera tripod that I can aim, direct, lock and keep stable on the floor.

I am hoping the ATSC tuner on the Series 3 is more flexible than the tuner on my Dell 4200 HD Plasma so I can manually program the stations I want (and know are there) rather than having to rely on the tuner's built in scan function - which is a 5 to 10 minute process per scan. With my Dell's ATSC tuner, the slightest turn of the antenna one way or during the scan process will result in a station NOT being picked up as available. Yet, I know there are 16 stations there (at least) because I've found that many so far with subtle turns of the antenna.

BOTTOM LINE: I'M NOW DEFINITELY PURCHASING A SERIES 3 AND USING IT TO RECORD OTA HD WHEN IT COMES OUT.

...Dale


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Dajad said:


> BOTTOM LINE: I'M NOW DEFINITELY PURCHASING A SERIES 3 AND USING IT TO RECORD OTA HD WHEN IT COMES OUT.


Congrats! I wish I could get reliable OTA.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Cool... will have to look into getting that antenna, as I'm hoping to do the same.

By the way, the sentence "I can now reliably and consistently pull in about 7 to 8 HD channels" struck me as funny.


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## HDTimeShifter (Jan 1, 2007)

Is the S3 usable after discontinuing the service plan? I am considering buying it to record OTA ATSC and possibly QAM since I timeshift most everything. I don't need the idiot-proof menu recording features as I've been successful at programming my VCR for the past 13 years without the need to pay for idiot-proof Starsight subscription. I am considering buying it just to timeshift HD programs and discontinue the service plan after the minimum year. The S3 is costly enough as it is and I don't want to keep paying $100 or more per year for a service plan.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

HDTimeShifter said:


> Is the S3 usable after discontinuing the service plan? I am considering buying it to record OTA ATSC and possibly QAM since I timeshift most everything. I don't need the idiot-proof menu recording features as I've been successful at programming my VCR for the past 13 years without the need to pay for idiot-proof Starsight subscription. I am considering buying it just to timeshift HD programs and discontinue the service plan after the minimum year. The S3 is costly enough as it is and I don't want to keep paying $100 or more per year for a service plan.


No, it will not work without service. You might want to look into PC-based solutions.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

HDTimeShifter, on the 100-or-more a year, all I can say is its worth it. The decision is still yours.

Without a sub, an S3 is a nice, shiny doorstop.


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## HDTimeShifter (Jan 1, 2007)

Hmm, $100/year (3 year special) is not too bad compared to $50+/month for cable HD service with their DVR. Only problem is I'll have to buy 2 ATSC/QAM STB tuners if I want to do the watch one HD program while recording another. I'm still coming out ahead in my ROI (Return on Investment for non computer/biz geeks) in about 2 years.

I don't want to have a PC/monitor cluttering up my living room, not to mention I don't really have space around my entertainment area. Also, while I have some older spare PCs (P2 & P3), I'm not sure they have the horsepower or architecture up to date to handle this.


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