# TIVO: The slow but virtually certain death of a great brand...



## hhempel (Oct 1, 2008)

I have been fan #1 of TIVO from day #1. Ask any of my friends & family...

I have happily purchased more than 20 TIVOs with the expensive lifetime subscriptions (many as gifts). I was even one of the apparently very few that recently bought a new "TIVO Premiere" with a lifetime subscription.

I think that the TIVO DVR programming (especially web-based) is fantastic and I love the UI particularly in comparison with most "cableCo" DVRs.

I have blindly stuck with both Charter Cable AND TIVO (in lieu of better programming on DirectTV) for the last 5 years hoping/believing that TIVO would take advantage of the enormous marketing lead that TIVO enjoyed as one of the first movers in the DVR/Digital Media space. I fully expected that TIVO would "lead the revolution" and evolve it's products ahead of the others.

Reluctantly, I have finally admitted to myself that nothing could be further from the truth.

TIVO products (and the company) are stuck in a rut and I am dumbfounded by the HUGE opportunity that TIVO has apparently squandered while more compelling products and strategies make TIVO increasingly irrelevant...

Recently, TIVO announced their "biggest, boldest box ever"... After 12 months of waiting, we get a bigger hard drive (duh) and 4 tuners (digital only)! Whoopidy F'ing Dew! For $500 PLUS $300 lifetime service! Completely ridiculous!

There are 100s of examples of obviously missing product/service features in the current TIVO lineup that support my recent conclusions about the ill fate of TIVO;

The mere fact that TIVO is still "transferring" the files between it's machines in my home to allow me to watch shows in multiple rooms is the most blatant and obvious example of how truly out of touch the TIVO engineering group has become.

It is technically trivial to enable LAN attached TIVOs with the ability to stream to each other and "pause in one room to resume in another room"... While rumors abound that this feature is "coming soon", the feature is already at least 2 years late.

And don't get me started about the ability for my TIVO box to support multiple codecs to allow me to stream my various homemade digital content from my media server to my TIVO boxes. It is truly incomprehensible that TIVO has not added this functionality.

REALLY!! How is it possible that some product mgr at TIVO can't simply download the product specs for Roku, Popcorn, XBMC, AppleTV, etc. etc. etc and GET A CLUE???? And oh by the way, those well rec'd products are typically under $100!

Seriously, can someone at TIVO do a Google search for UpnP or DLNA??? The shear arrogance of TIVO ignoring these standards is indefensible.

The best way to insure that I remain a TIVO customer is to make it SUPER EASY to watch my ripped DVDs or homegrown videos without installing ROKU! Because, frankly, once I own a ROKU, I am going to stop needing a TIVO...

As a result of TIVO's lack of innovation, I am in the process of figuring out how to use KMTTG plus Py-Tivo to make one of my Tivos a "behind the scenes" DVR only with recordings stored on my media server. I will then use my media server to feed the recordings to my Roku/ATV/Boxee/PS3... I can then sell off my other 4 TIVOs... Voila'... Problem solved...

Why the HECK would TIVO force me to do this??? I don't want to learn how to install/manage/use KMTTG. I simply want to easily share my media amongst my various televisions. I already have a TIVO on every TV and an industry standard media server. It should be simple!

One only need to spend 10 minutes in the various AV forums to confirm that consumers (especially the technically savvy) are very disappointed by the failure of TIVO to stay current and innovate... The "new" Premiere interface is acceptable at best and SLOW SLOW SLOW... Especially compared to the fast and compelling interfaces on AppleTV/XBMC etc.

ALL of these product shortcomings have been WELL documented for years. Take a read of the "premiere" review on CNET dated (March 2010) 18 months ago!

TIVO always infers that they are hamstrung to deliver these features due to some "content industry" fears of piracy" blah blah blah. Pure BULL...

That train left the station long ago...

TIVO has allowed the content providers (cable companies) to limit TIVO functionality and therefore dictate the terms of TIVO's long term success and as a result TIVO is essentially clinically DOA.

This is SO ironic since the very first TIVO box enabled its users to skip commercials from Day 1 and therefore essentially initiated the need for the reinvention of the old broadcast business (advertiser based) model back in 1999.

In Silicon Valley, you can always tell when a previously innovative company is about to become irrelevant. They start suing their potential partners to protect their "intellectual property" instead of innovating.

While I agree that AT&T/Motorola/etc. have ripped TIVO off and should be held accountable, it is TIVO that has allowed these slow moving entities to make market strides by failing to innovate and "change the rules.

I have limited sympathy on the patent disputes. They are a distraction to the success of the TIVO brand.

I am truly sad to be walking away from TIVO as a company... I feel like a close friend has died (committed suicide actually)...

I am also REALLY MAD on behalf of both shareholders and customers that TIVO has failed so miserably to deliver real innovation given their early entrance into the market.

Recent comments (you will need to Google it since this forum prevents me from adding links) by TIVO CEO Rogers are proof positive that a management change is way overdue.

With all due respect to Mr. Roger's successful career and obvious intelligence, I believe that when it comes to getting TIVO positioned for long term success Mr. Rogers simply doesn't get it.

TIVO should stop sucking the teet of the cable providers (Mr. Rogers' failed strategy) and lead the charge for the cable cutters...

At this point, since TIVO failed long ago to secure major deals with the cable companies, TIVO mgmt really have NO CHOICE.

It is patently obvious that the cableCOs (at least in the USA) are only going to be interested in TIVO partnerships through relatively uninteresting low-margin embedded technology licensing deals for their own private label boxes. These type of deals certainly won't support TIVO's current $1B+ market cap. That's if the cableCOs are interested at all!

Instead, with some concerted effort, TIVO could OWN the cut the cable HW/SW/Services market which is currently filled with a hodge-podge of un-integrated and poorly supported products that are frequently lacking in the ease of use that was once the hallmark of TIVO.

TIVO could easily accelerate the adoption of IP delivered content (including streaming movies/TV) into the Living Room and combine it with OTA DVR for the ultimate no-cable experience. This idea is SO OBVIOUS and yet TIVO appears to run away from it! I assume this has to do with sucking teet...

The current TIVO product offerings (OTA services especially) are wholly inadequate and there appears to be almost no interest on TIVOs part to put forth a compelling IP+OTA+DVR line-up. All of the pieces of that puzzle are already part of the technology portfolio at TIVO and yet they simply fail to execute.

It is possible that it is too late to save the company as we know it, but I firmly believe that a takeover (perhaps hostile) of the TIVO Board of Directors in order to install new energy and a new strategy is viable. I am certain that this is the only way that the TIVO brand can be revived and its stock value maintained (much less grown).

Otherwise, TIVO is a certain winner as a long-term stock short...

Just one man's $0.02

ps: Just so that I don't get flamed for "unfairly ranting" here, I believe that I have done everything in my power to communicate my concerns directly to TIVO via surveys, emails, and support requests over the 12 years I have been a devoted customer... I believe that TIVO either does not listen and/or cannot execute. I am no longer willing to be "quietly supportive" of an organization that clearly does not respond to it's customers. 99% of my observations here have been regular forum subjects for months/years.

pps: Here is the relatively short list of "features" that the next TIVO box requires in order to insure it's long term viability:
Simple TIVO-TIVO Video Streaming
True Gigabit Ethernet (built-in wireless too!)
UPnP support & DLNA support
Updated Netflix player(s)
Full support for 1080p video formats: MKV (H.264), MP4 (H.264), MOV (H.264), WMV/ASF (WMV9/VC-1)
Interchangeable OTA/Digital tuners
Improved accuracy/support for OTA programming (localized)
30% improvement in menu responsiveness


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

Tl;dr


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## djwilso (Dec 23, 2006)

hhempel said:


> The best way to insure that I remain a TIVO customer is to make it SUPER EASY to watch my ripped DVDs or homegrown videos without installing ROKU! Because, frankly, once I own a ROKU, I am going to stop needing a TIVO...


When a Roku box can record 4 HD channels at the same time, I'll believe you.

Why would you no longer need a TiVo if you got a Roku? I have 2 Rokus already, and they don't obviate the need for my TiVo.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

You are clearly frustrated with Tivo, but it's also clear you don't understand the patent and business issues you mention nor do you understand how unfriendly and hostile the cable companies have been to Tivo or the restrictions imposed by Cable Labs (owned by the cable companies) that the cable companies don't have to follow themselves.

AT&T, Verizon, Comcast, Cox and all the others sat back and said "as long as Dish is fighting Tivo over the key patents (six+ years) that we are probably infringing", we're just going keep doing what we are doing and hope Tivo gets crushed and we can keep on stealing/using their technology.

Tivo only has so many resources available; whether we like it or not, stand alone users in the US aren't top of the priority list. As a Tivo user, I don't like that. As a significant stock holder, I would be upset if that wasn't the case.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> As a significant stock holder, I would be upset if that wasn't the case.


As a stock holder, I'm concerned that the flagship product has floundered for 18 months with obvious flaws, incomplete menus, half the cpu enabled, outdated netflix and amazon plugins, etc. Some of these items, like completing the HDUI menu structure, are neither difficult nor time consuming. It shows a lack of ability or lack of desire to make a quality product. As a shareholder, you like to see growth, and you like to see the company staying ahead of the competition. Instead, we see a stagnant product and the competition continually gaining (and sometimes surpassing).

There may be many things Tivo can't do due to the cablecard fiasco, but there are also many things they can do, and they aren't doing them.


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## mskvarenina (Jun 24, 2002)

I too have been a TiVo customer since day 1 and still have a Series 1 working today. My biggest problem with TiVo is they don't offer the ability to transfer your lifetime subscriptions to new TiVos. 

Recently 2 of my Series 3 units were destroyed by a lightning strike. I asked if I could transfer, even for some reasonable fee and they answered no....


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Can this thread be merged with the same ones that come up every few weeks for the last few years? All of this has been re-hashed so many times.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

rainwater said:


> Can this thread be merged with the same ones that come up every few weeks for the last few years? All of this has been re-hashed so many times.


Few years? I've been seeing them since I first signed up here! If TiVo's death is as imminent now as it was then, TiVo has many, many years ahead of it...


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

mskvarenina said:


> My biggest problem with TiVo is they don't offer the ability to transfer your lifetime subscriptions to new TiVos.
> 
> Recently 2 of my Series 3 units were destroyed by a lightning strike. I asked if I could transfer, even for some reasonable fee and they answered no....


If they did that they would have go out of business. They not making much money. You are only pay for 25 months at $20.00 a month now if you pay the $499.00 lifetime


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

mskvarenina said:


> Recently 2 of my Series 3 units were destroyed by a lightning strike. I asked if I could transfer, even for some reasonable fee and they answered no....


But you knew, or at least SHOULD HAVE KNOWN, that when you bought them.

It has been clear since at least ~Jan 20, 2000, that lifetime goes with the box.
(I say that as someone with a dead S3 & dying TivoHD, both with lifetime...)

Also, Tivo *has* had a few lifetime transfer options over the years.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Sorry, lost interest four paragraphs in. But I think you should totally go buy a box that does all that stuff that you want.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

rainwater said:


> Can this thread be merged with the same ones that come up every few weeks for the last few years? All of this has been re-hashed so many times.


+1 :up:


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

nrc said:


> Sorry, lost interest four paragraphs in. But I think you should totally go buy a box that does all that stuff that you want.


I made it a little further than four paragraphs, maybe halfway through the post before giving up. I see similar complaints often and I don't think the product these people want exists now and I haven't seen any indication it is coming anytime soon from TiVo or any other company. Why not get the best DVR and a separate best internet streaming/application box and concede this all-in-one box is either impractical due to cost or improbable due to technical reasons?

As far as the streaming between TiVos, from what I have read I believe that is coming to the Premiere at some point soon. For me, I can plan ahead and just transfer a show from one TiVoHD to the other and live with that. For my limited internet TV needs, I just use an inexpensive Logitech Revue Google TV and there are other choices if that isn't the best option for someobdy else. I don't have any complaints at all and TiVo has exceeded my expectations when I purchased my first TiVoHD.

I do see that TiVo continues to struggle and can't operate at a profit and I certainly hope something can change that situation.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Chris Gerhard said:


> Why not get the best DVR and a separate best internet streaming/application box and concede this all-in-one box is either impractical due to cost or improbable due to technical reasons?


Exactly. Accept that Tivo is not competent enough (or doesn't care enough) to be the 'one box' that marketing lies about, and you're good to go. It's still the best DVR you can buy.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

hhempel said:


> I have been fan #1 of TIVO from day #1. Ask any of my friends & family...


Interersting that after all these years of being fan #1 and having nothing to contribute to this forum, your second post on this forum is a huge rant. I feel used. 


hhempel said:


> It is technically trivial to enable LAN attached TIVOs with the ability to stream to each other and "pause in one room to resume in another room"... While rumors abound that this feature is "coming soon", the feature is already at least 2 years late.
> 
> And don't get me started about the ability for my TIVO box to support multiple codecs to allow me to stream my various homemade digital content from my media server to my TIVO boxes. It is truly incomprehensible that TIVO has not added this functionality.
> 
> ...


"technically trivial"..... "truly incomprehensible" ..... "simply ... GET A CLUE?" .... "shear arrogance" ... "indefensible".

Clearly you need to hire in to TiVo, or even better start your own company, since making a better TiVo would be so easy for you.


hhempel said:


> .............
> TIVO has allowed the content providers (cable companies) to limit TIVO functionality and therefore dictate the terms of TIVO's long term success and as a result TIVO is essentially clinically DOA.
> ..........


TiVo has *"allowed"* ? Get serious ... like they had a choice better than CableCARD and Tuning Adapters?


hhempel said:


> TIVO could easily accelerate the adoption of IP delivered content (including streaming movies/TV) into the Living Room and combine it with OTA DVR for the ultimate no-cable experience. This idea is SO OBVIOUS and yet TIVO appears to run away from it! I assume this has to do with sucking teet...


There you go again. Everything you want TiVo to do is "easy" or "trivial" or "obvious".

You have some valid points, all of which already have been plastered all over this forum for months (years?). The only thing new in your post is the hyperbole and rhetoric, which actually undermiine your case IMHO.


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## hhempel (Oct 1, 2008)

rainwater said:


> Can this thread be merged with the same ones that come up every few weeks for the last few years? All of this has been re-hashed so many times.





jfh3 said:


> +1 :up:


In retrospect, I must admit that much of this is a rehash...

What set me off was receiving yet another "survey" from TIVO asking for my opinion... After years of responding constructively to these surveys without apparent impact, I blew a bit of a gasket...

The mere fact that so many of these issues have been rehashed for years is proof enough that TIVO:
A) Doesn't listen and/or 
B) Simply can't execute and/or 
C) Is focused on other priorities outside of the stand-alone consumer in the USA​
As for the replies that suggest that the feature requests are too challenging for TIVO to undertake, I submit that since all of those capabilities are already being provided via TIVO hacks and/or available in sub $100 devices with similar hardware, the technical challenges are in fact largely "trivial". I stand by my statements and would be more than happy to deliver the proposed features in 12 months or less with a $modest budget (for SW engineering) and access to the TIVO source.


Chris Gerhard said:


> Why not get the best DVR and a separate best internet streaming/application box and concede this all-in-one box is either impractical due to cost or improbable due to technical reasons?


I am more than able/willing to combine TIVO with a separate media player (already have) but it feels so wholly unnecessary and redundant.

More importantly, despite enormous effort with Harmony Remotes etc. the addition of new "sources" in the AV cabinet only further exacerbates an already confusing situation for my family members who struggle mightily to figure out how to use the system (e.g. 4 devices on which to watch NetFlix).

My goal is to REDUCE and SIMPLIFY my AV sources and I submit that there is a huge opportunity for the company that makes that possible (TIVO?).



jfh3 said:


> Tivo only has so many resources available; whether we like it or not, stand alone users in the US aren't top of the priority list. As a Tivo user, I don't like that. As a significant stock holder, I would be upset if that wasn't the case.


This observation was perhaps the most enlightening to me. Selfishly, I had not considered that TIVO was essentially prioritizing it's ongoing effort to secure CableCO deals (especially outside the US). I am not in a position to assess the likelihood of success, but I certainly understand that sometimes the "stand-alone" buyer is not the best path and I would respect TIVO for making necessary biz decisions accordingly. Maybe the Int'l CableCo's will be more friendly?

Thanks to everyone for the candid feedback and I apologize for the rehash.

Feel free to move this post into the trash bin of numerous other posts from dedicated TIVO customers simply wishing for more...


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

hhempel said:


> ..........As for the replies that suggest that the feature requests are too challenging for TIVO to undertake, I submit that since all of those capabilities are already being provided via TIVO hacks and/or available in sub $100 devices with similar hardware, the technical challenges are in fact largely "trivial".


Do you only see things in black and white? There is a HUGE gap between a feature not being "too challenging" or having been implemented in another product, and its being "trivial" as you stated.



hhempel said:


> .......... I stand by my statements and would be more than happy to deliver the proposed features in 12 months or less with a $modest budget (for SW engineering) and access to the TIVO source.
> I am more than able/willing to combine TIVO with a separate media player (already have) but it feels so wholly unnecessary and redundant.
> ........


If someone here wants to invest in this enterprise, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like them to consider.  (At least based on your apparent over-simplification of technical development tasks as shown here.)


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## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

hhempel said:


> It is technically trivial to enable LAN attached TIVOs with the ability to stream to each other and "pause in one room to resume in another room"...


Is it? What development work have you done for Tivo in the past that makes you qualified to make such a statement? It sounds as if you're confusing "competitors offer the features I want" with "it's technically trivial to enable this with existing Tivos". The two statements are very different. I don't disagree that Tivo has offered too little too late but don't assume that something is trivial when you know nothing about the details. *Anything* seems simple when you're blissfully unaware of the details (which is why "How hard can it be?" are famous last words).



rainwater said:


> Can this thread be merged with the same ones that come up every few weeks for the last few years? All of this has been re-hashed so many times.


^ This. No need to post the same thread over and over and over. I can understand being frustrated with Tivo but it's just as frustrating to have to read the same threads with no additional insight. At least indicate what product on the shelves can accomplish what you want. As far as I can tell there's no such thing.


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## hhempel (Oct 1, 2008)

dlfl said:


> Do you only see things in black and white? There is a HUGE gap between a feature not being "too challenging" or having been implemented in another product, and its being "trivial" as you stated.





takeshi said:


> Is it? What development work have you done for Tivo in the past that makes you qualified to make such a statement? It sounds as if you're confusing "competitors offer the features I want" with "it's technically trivial to enable this with existing Tivos". The two statements are very different...


OK... I relent... I hereby recant ALL of my use of the word trivial... Nothing in technology development is ever "trivial" and I would be better off to temper my "hyperbole"...

That said, there are currently numerous people enjoying streaming videos (from a Media Server) on existing hacked TIVOs using a wide variety of CODECs. How hard can it be for TIVO to integrate those features when the work (at least in prototype form) is already complete/tested/deployed fairly broadly? The reality is that TIVO chooses (for unknown reasons) to invest in features like 4 tuners apparently at the expense of improved streaming/networking...

I fully appreciate that just because the functionality exists in another cheap piece of HW it does not insure that it can exist in already shipped TIVOs since there are HW/SW limitations.

But the existence of ALL of the media player features that so many have requested in these forums in a $50 box certainly supports the idea that Premiere Elite (for example) could have addressed whatever HW/SW limitations may exist in previous versions of TIVO...

Had TIVO chosen to invest the time/$$$ to include those features, I would already own 3 Elites...

To look at it another way: Even if the technical challenges to create a new box that combines the best of TIVO with the best of ROKU, XBMC, ATV etc. are enormous, TIVO is well advised to get started now...

I remain certain that the demand for such a combination will be significant and that the overall affect on the TIVO business incredibly positive.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Well, maybe you should get on Roku forums and suggest they should add digital cable TV reception with at least 2 tuners to their boxes.  Start with a real barn-burner post with plenty of extreme exaggerations, just to get their attention.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

The Roku isn't exactly going to do much streaming for my content.. With the ROku 2 having a max bitrate of 8Mb/s with MPEG4, it won't do much for my content that has bitrates several times higher.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

hhempel said:


> C) Is focused on other priorities outside of the stand-alone consumer in the USA


Hasn't TiVo blatantly said this in the past? That they would rather not be in the hardware business? (..but have not gotten third party companies, especially cable companies, interested enough to do this)

and in the "reading the tea leaves" part, the no OTA for the Elite means it's for cable companies, but they released it as a standalone product.. (because there weren't cable companies interested, at least not enough to keep them going???)


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

mattack said:


> Hasn't TiVo blatantly said this in the past? That they would rather not be in the hardware business? (..but have not gotten third party companies, especially cable companies, interested enough to do this)
> 
> and in the "reading the tea leaves" part, the no OTA for the Elite means it's for cable companies, but they released it as a standalone product.. (because there weren't cable companies interested, at least not enough to keep them going???)


No, the Q is for the cable companies. TiVo released a retail version of the Q called the Elite because the CEDIA and other high end installers wanted it for their clients. The no OTA is simple - it wasn't in the Q and adding it to the Elite would have increased the cost, likely added some restrictions on how the four tuning streams and still not for the target market. I've seen a lot of very nice custom video setups - never seen one with just OTA only. Always has cable and/or satelite. And if I had to have one today, I'd just a regular Premiere to the mix at $10/month.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

hhempel said:


> What set me off was receiving yet another "survey" from TIVO asking for my opinion...


Here do this...Got to tivo.com and sign into your account. Go to the "manage Tivo emails" page. Where it says "TiVo Surveys Sign up to receive invitations for surveys and help us continually improve the TiVo experience." click NO.

Voila! One of your problems solved!


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I got less than halfway thru the rant before I lost interest. I'm always amused when I see these rants. People keep griping because a Tivo hasn't improved or evolved. The "improvements" I see in Tivos these days is mostly just window dressing and not of any real use to a lot of Tivo owners that simply want the best DVR experience available. The lack of OTA tuners in the Elite is a deal breaker for me.

What really amuses me is all of the features the OP is claiming the Tivo lacks can all be had with an HTPC. It's certainly not a perfect solution, especially if you go with media extenders or the like, but it definitely has the most flexibility. Unfortunately, it's not the simple plug and play solution most Tivo owners are looking for and does require a bit more than basic PC knowledge to set up.

As a standalone DVR, Tivo does the job better than anything else currently on the market. It mostly depends on what you want to get out of your DVR experience. I just want a device that's reliable and records everything I ask it to. I also want a DVR that's not going to cost me an arm and a leg to own operate, which is why I've migrated towards HTPC use vs. Tivo.

The one feature that Tivo included that has both pluses and minuses is MRV. Tivo should have configured it for live streaming from the outset. I never liked the fact that I always had to copy shows over to a 2nd Tivo to watch them and then have to go back and delete the show from two different Tivos. ReplayTV was way ahead of Tivo in this area as well as many others. In fact, if ReplayTV had survived, it would be my DVR of choice. Tivo is currently the best standalone DVR available, but it wasn't always the case. It's the only one that's somehow managed to survive.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

takeshi said:


> *I can understand being frustrated with Tivo *but it's just as frustrating to have to read the same threads with no additional insight. At least indicate what product on the shelves can accomplish what you want. As far as I can tell there's no such thing.


to the OP;
I can not understand the frustration with TiVo, one either likes it or does not. If there is a better product buy it and share it with the rest of us and sell or pitch the piece of junk TiVo you own, cancel your membership here and live happily ever after.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

It isn't really TiVo's fault, but more accurately the TiVo MODEL: they are a 3rd party, and that was ALWAYS been TiVo's assured path to being a diminished brand no matter how high the peak in early to mid 2000s.

TiVo can't afford give away their boxes like cable, sat, IPTV, and FiOS (MVPD's can even provide MORE than ONE DVR for FREE) to make that money back over a 2 year commitment like the MVPD's. For all of our valid complaints, TiVo is doing its best to realign it self, and, ultimately, that means LEAVING the retail business. In a few years there will be NO MORE TiVo's you can buy. Tom Rogers has been clear in his intentions to this path from the beginning and has constantly reaffirmed it.

That's how bad things really are at TiVo, and it is affirmed by its anemic implementation of the "Everything" concept and features. I SO WANT THE TiVo to have such superb Netflex, YouTube, and other on-line functionality, but as much as I try to overlook TiVo's big flaws in this area, I am always presented with how inferior and FRUSTRATING it is compared to other streaming products (Boxee Box, Roku, etc.). TiVo, it would have been LOVE had you impressed us with the on-line features of the box. I really do want my TiVo's to be the truly "ONE" box for "Everything." But that aint so.

However, TiVo co-branded DVR's through your MSO or MVPD's who pay TiVo for the use of TiVo patents in their own branded DVR's are the future and TiVo will likely exist as an even smaller company than today and even eventually bought for much less than can be had today. I have no fear of losing continued TiVo support for any of our retail TiVo's. TiVo just will be further diminished than it is today, but still around. A "lean", but not at all "mean" company.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Series3Sub said:


> TiVo co-branded DVR's through your MSO or MVPD's who pay TiVo for the use of TiVo patents in their own branded DVR's are the future


Unfortunately, most MSOs are happy just not paying for the use of Tivo's patents (e.g. stealing the technology), which is in no small part why we are in the situation we are in.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

hhempel said:


> OK... I relent... I hereby recant ALL of my use of the word trivial... Nothing in technology development is ever "trivial" and I would be better off to temper my "hyperbole"...


I'm mostly on your side in this. While the effort might not be "trivial", I think that a programming team of three drunk monkeys and a rabid squirrel could have done a better job writing recent software than TiVo has.

And yes, I've written software and designed hardware. Certainly enough to know that I could do better than TiVo has.

TiVo's incompetence is far beyond embarassing. When they write the epithaph, I predict that the words *Epic Fail* will feature prominently. Many companies have failed, many will fail in the future. What makes TiVo an epic fail is how they started with so much promise and then they squandered it all.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

jfh3 said:


> Unfortunately, most MSOs are happy just not paying for the use of Tivo's patents (e.g. stealing the technology), which is in no small part why we are in the situation we are in.


Fair point. And the patents end pretty soon, don't they. But they are getting some action overseas, especially with Virgin, so I still, I think we will all continue to get support (guide data and functionality, etc.) for our retail TiVo's for years to come. It's just the little TiVo mascot will be even little-er.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Six or eight more years on the key '389 patent, if I remember, do long enough to get AT&T and Verizon through the appeals process. But then TiVo has the more recent ones ...

The little TiVo guy isn't going anywhere. And US companies like RCN might just show the big guys that it's more profitable to pay TiVo and get some benefit from doing so.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I'm mostly on your side in this. While the effort might not be "trivial", I think that a programming team of three drunk monkeys and a rabid squirrel could have done a better job writing recent software than TiVo has.
> 
> And yes, I've written software and designed hardware. Certainly enough to know that I could do better than TiVo has.
> 
> .


It amazes me that so many can do such a better job than TiVo yet none of you have and the few who have tried and actually went into production created an inferior product.
Dont tell me what you can do, show me. If its better than a TiVo and doesnt cost an arm and a leg i'll buy it.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Joe01880 said:


> It amazes me that so many can do such a better job than TiVo yet none of you have and the few who have tried and actually went into production created an inferior product.
> Dont tell me what you can do, show me. If its better than a TiVo and doesnt cost an arm and a leg i'll buy it.


+1 :up::up: Amen, brother!


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Joe01880 said:


> Dont tell me what you can do, show me. If its better than a TiVo and doesnt cost an arm and a leg i'll buy it.


Many have tried and ran straight into a brick wall. Tivo owns most of the patents for it's features and any attempt at creating a similar product will invite a patent lawsuit. I have no doubt that the Scientific Atlanta and Motorola DVRs offered by most cablecos could be vastly improved if not for the fact that Tivo has them all hamstrung with patents and copyrights. None of them want to pay Tivo any royalties to incorporate Tivo features so the end user winds up with a mediocre DVR as a result. As evidenced by the number of lawsuits Tivo has filed in the past, even the slightest hint of any patent infringement and Tivo's lawyers are all over it.

Talk is cheap. Lawsuits aren't.


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## mpogge (Sep 12, 2010)

smbaker said:


> As a stock holder, I'm concerned that the flagship product has floundered for 18 months with obvious flaws, incomplete menus, half the cpu enabled, outdated netflix and amazon plugins, etc. Some of these items, like completing the HDUI menu structure, are neither difficult nor time consuming. It shows a lack of ability or lack of desire to make a quality product. As a shareholder, you like to see growth, and you like to see the company staying ahead of the competition. Instead, we see a stagnant product and the competition continually gaining (and sometimes surpassing).
> 
> There may be many things Tivo can't do due to the cablecard fiasco, but there are also many things they can do, and they aren't doing them.


This is hitting the head of the nail in the coffin!


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> As evidenced by the number of lawsuits Tivo has filed in the past, even the slightest hint of any patent infringement and Tivo's lawyers are all over it.


LOL. You have no idea what you are talking about. Tivo has filed very few suits compared to the number of potential infringers.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> LOL. You have no idea what you are talking about. Tivo has filed very few suits compared to the number of potential infringers.


How many potential infringers are out there? 5 or 6? 
It's not like every electronics manufacturer has a DVR line. 

The ratio between lawsuits and potential infringers has to be what, 30%?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Multiply 5 or 6 by 20-25 and you get closer. TiVo would rather partner then sue.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> LOL. You have no idea what you are talking about. Tivo has filed very few suits compared to the number of potential infringers.


Possibly. It's just that there was a period when every time I visited these forums there were lots of reports about lawsuits involving Tivo.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Talk is cheap. Lawsuits aren't.


Letting someone steal your intellectual property isn't cheap either. TiVo isn't a patient troll, they spent time and money developing something new and unique and should receive compensation if someone else wants to copy it.



mr.unnatural said:


> Possibly. It's just that there was a period when every time I visited these forums there were lots of reports about lawsuits involving Tivo.


I am not 100% sure but I believe TiVo has only sued one company (Dishnetwork) and it was really only one lawsuit regarding multiple patient issues. It just went on for years because Dishnetwork refused to settle (note dish lost in the end).


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> Letting someone steal your intellectual property isn't cheap either. TiVo isn't a patient troll, they spent time and money developing something new and unique and should receive compensation if someone else wants to copy it.


No argument there.



> I am not 100% sure but I believe TiVo has only sued one company (Dishnetwork) and it was really only one lawsuit regarding multiple patient issues. It just went on for years because Dishnetwork refused to settle (note dish lost in the end).


I think you're right. It's just that there were a multitude of threads that kept popping up discussing the Dish lawsuit, giving the appearance that Tivo was constantly involved in multiple lawsuits when in fact it was one major lawsuit with the Dish folks.


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## bobster954 (Aug 15, 2011)

I bought it for the upgrade to dvr from comcast's really horrid one. It is much better. I bought it so I could keep my recorded events in case I left comcast...

In those two things it is better and a good option. In 3 years I will break even and 3 years of better viewing experience.

as far as higher end options I find tivo pretty much failed any expectations I might have had.

The internet stuff is too basic and I would rather use my computer, just too lame.

None of the other functions are really usable to me. I might try netflix one day, but that would be it.


Tivo is no different than most things out there though. My hdtv extras are junk too.

The only thing I would advise is spending another 80 bucks and buying a media server like WDTV so you can play all your movies from it to your tv. It seems to play most media files unlike my tv or tivo and I plan on getting one.

Tivo was definitely not the 'one stop' shop. It is just a better dvr, no more, no less.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

bobster954 said:


> I bought it for the upgrade to dvr from comcast's really horrid one. It is much better. I bought it so I could keep my recorded events in case I left comcast...
> 
> In those two things it is better and a good option. In 3 years I will break even and 3 years of better viewing experience.
> 
> ...


I think the average TiVo user feels like you, I have five TiVos and my family uses them to...well record TV, that and MRV is all that important in my family for a DVR, and TiVo (with lifetime) is the best solution for us.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> I am not 100% sure but I believe TiVo has only sued one company (Dishnetwork) and it was really only one lawsuit regarding multiple patient issues. It just went on for years because Dishnetwork refused to settle (note dish lost in the end).


Not true. There were multiple suits involving Dish (as plantiff and defendant). Dish settled before the case went back to the trial court after (another) failed appeal, and, as part of the settlement, dropped the suit against Tivo.

Tivo also has active suits against Verizon and AT&T that were delayed until 1Q. Microsoft is indirectly involved as an indemnifier.


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## lunarose (Oct 23, 2011)

I think with a little marketing, vision and and some tweaking of technology already available Tivo could easily become the Apple of television.


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## destek (Jan 15, 2001)

rainwater said:


> Can this thread be merged with the same ones that come up every few weeks for the last few years? All of this has been re-hashed so many times.


But this is an all new version. It has several more sentences and more cleverly placed adjectives and a few metaphors to make the whole argument fresh again...


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