# Blue spinning Circle of Death is back



## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

*EDIT: It cleared up here literally moments ago (1:05PM PST), without any other updates or connections. Seems like the issue was, once again, on the TiVo server end of things.*

The problem returned with the latest 'update', which also strangely included a message telling me that One Pass has 'improved', except I was sent the identical message a month or more ago.

Methinks something got SERIOUSLY screwed up in the last update.

Really, TiVo, having to watch the blue Circle of Death spinning waiting 15-20 seconds for a folder to indicate how many seasons are recorded, then waiting 15-20 seconds *AGAIN *to populate it with the titles, then having to wait *again *for the video to start playing, is soooo beyond unacceptable.

Get it together, would you please? This is the second time this has happened, and it's starting to feel like you've hired a bunch of programmers who used to program cableco settop boxes with all the problems you're generating.

Just so unlike the TiVo I've known for at least a decade.


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

Makes you wonder how this ever got by testing or whatever QC they might have in place for these updates.


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## drkmstr (Nov 23, 2013)

Same problem on my Roamio pro and basic. Plus I cannot connect through my iPad or iPhone.


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## das335 (Feb 8, 2006)

Yep. Seeing the same blue circle after the recent unexpected upgrade to the RC release. On average, I am seeing at least a 30 second delay in bringing up a list of shows in a folder. I restarted my Roamio basic and it did not change anything.

I went back and checked my Premiere, which is still running the stable software release and there is no delay on bringing up shows.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Maybe the slowdown is related to work being done on the time problem? I see it now. I hope it doesn't last.


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## drkmstr (Nov 23, 2013)

Strangely I reset my router and the circles disappeared and my iOS app started working again.


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

Aaaaaaand...it cleared up on my machine moments ago. No router reset performed here.

Seems like the issue was not the update, but something on the TiVo server end of things.

The other 'coincidence' was that neither my Roamio Pro nor my aged Series 3 was able to see TiVo Desktop and its folder, and now it suddenly can.


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## jasonander (Jan 9, 2005)

This happened to me as well on my two Roamios. Started last night and continued through this morning. I called support but they weren't aware of any server issues or other people complaining about the problem, and the tech wouldn't be able to elevate unless more people contacted support with the same problem. So if this happens to you, please call in so we can get Tivo engineers to finally admit they have a problem and fix it! A server-side issue on the Tivo end should not result in a sluggish TiVo UI where it takes 60 seconds to access folders, recordings, etc.!


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

The first level of defense by marginal tech support is "We are not aware of any problems. No one else has reported this problem. It must be you." 

When there are dozens of posts here with the problem, the one certainty is that there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of customers experiencing the same thing, and some if not many have already called and been told the same lie.

It's shameful that TiVo has resorted to doing it.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

yeah, for the past two weeks or so, primarily on weekends, i've seen sporadic spinning blue circles when navigating the menus, but never for more than a few seconds.

this weekend has been much smoother than the previous two.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

To be fair, it's not a Circle of Death. More a Circle of Getting in the Way of Watching TV Temporarily.

Just sayin'...


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

*It's Back???? * It never left. They need to stop going to their servers for anything local. They are IDIOTS in CA where they do the NON-DEVELOPMENT. This fight has been going on since I been on tivo starting with my XL4 in 2012. I got rid of that boat anchor in 18 months. Could not even run the thing in HD mode it was so slow. Most of the time mine spins, when it does do it, when I am in My Shows selecting a recording from a group...I used to disconnect my ethernet when it was too much and that fixed it, but now that I am on Moca, I do not know how to disconnect it from them unless I change the network connection type. It really does not happen too often and I did not notice anything worse in 2b.RC1. GUESS THAT IS WHY IT IS AN RC...HAHAHA. *NEXT USELESS UPDATE COMING UP................*

THANK YOU TIVO....:down:


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

samccfl99 said:


> *It's Back???? * It never left. They need to stop going to their servers for anything local. They are IDIOTS in CA where they do the NON-DEVELOPMENT. This fight has been going on since I been on tivo starting with my XL4 in 2012. I got rid of that boat anchor in 18 months. Could not even run the thing in HD mode it was so slow. Most of the time mine spins, when it does do it, when I am in My Shows selecting a recording from a group...I used to disconnect my ethernet when it was too much and that fixed it, but now that I am on Moca, I do not know how to disconnect it from them unless I change the network connection type. It really does not happen too often and I did not notice anything worse in 2b.RC1. GUESS THAT IS WHY IT IS AN RC...HAHAHA. *NEXT USELESS UPDATE COMING UP................*
> 
> THANK YOU TIVO....:down:


Dude, you *REALLY* need a chill-pill.

Please just STOP pumping your nasty comments into all the threads. Obviously there are issues, but there's no need to possibly piss off the Tivo admins that can actually fix these problems.

Do a post to let them know you are having issues, but do it calmly, and just state the facts. Hyperbole can be left on the cutting-room floor...


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> To be fair, it's not a Circle of Death. More a Circle of Getting in the Way of Watching TV Temporarily.


TiVo Blue Balls Spiral of Suffering... My TiVo lets me think I'm going to get to watch what I want, when I want, but then it just spurns my advances.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

krkaufman said:


> TiVo Blue Balls Spiral of Suffering... My TiVo lets me think I'm going to get to watch what I want, when I want, but then it just spurns my advances.


Heh, I like yours better.

Well, I HATE yours better, but you know what I mean.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

MikeBear said:


> Dude, you *REALLY* need a chill-pill.
> 
> Please just STOP pumping your nasty comments into all the threads. Obviously there are issues, but there's no need to possibly piss off the Tivo admins that can actually fix these problems.
> 
> Do a post to let them know you are having issues, but do it calmly, and just state the facts. Hyperbole can be left on the cutting-room floor...


This blue circle crap has been going on for a very long time with no acknowledgement from TiVo that the problem even exists and no indication that anything is going to be done about it and you are concerned that THEY will get pissed?


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## RayChuang88 (Sep 5, 2002)

<--saying a lot of things not suitable for this forum

I was wondering why I was getting the "blue circle of death" when accessing the My Shows portion on my TiVo Roamio Pro from around 10:00 pm on Friday, November 6, 2015 until after I restarted the DVR around 6:00 am the next day. There has to be something in the code TiVo sends to the DVR on a daily basis that causes this problem. :down:


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

RoyK said:


> This blue circle crap has been going on for a very long time with no acknowledgement from TiVo that the problem even exists and no indication that anything is going to be done about it and you are concerned that THEY will get pissed?


I guess we're all hoping that TiVo just needs to reconfigure their servers or optimize some code there to make this all work smoothly. But the nightmare scenario is that TiVo is trying to do data collection on a scale for which they simply can't afford the resources. IOW, to make this (misguided?) report-everything strategy work properly in real time, they may need not only fast Internet connections at every TiVo box, but also giant Google-style server farms scattered across the country to accept the massive data flow from those countless connections.


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## fred2 (Jan 20, 2006)

I've now had this circle of whatever for the last few days. I've also had it in the past but the recent spate were longer circles.

So, let me ask, my Roamio OTA needs to "CALL HOME (tm)" each and every time I want to watch shows that are already recorded on my tivo? So, if my router went down for whatever reason or CenturyLink had an outage, I would not be able to watch tivo-recorded shows? I guess I could test but am not in the mood to do so! Or am I mis-reading the thread and how my Roamio-OTA works?

Thanks in advance.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

fred2 said:


> I've now had this circle of whatever for the last few days. I've also had it in the past but the recent spate were longer circles.
> 
> So, let me ask, my Roamio OTA needs to "CALL HOME (tm)" each and every time I want to watch shows that are already recorded on my tivo? So, if my router went down for whatever reason or CenturyLink had an outage, I would not be able to watch tivo-recorded shows? I guess I could test but am not in the mood to do so! Or am I mis-reading the thread and how my Roamio-OTA works?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Nothing external can stop you from watching what is recorded on your unit. If you had a Mini then the router might be needed. However, you can pull the plug on your modem, lose some functions and get a few error messages. These would not be fatal. Also, it does not "call home" for every action. Those calls can be seen with the System Information display. It varies, but I find 90 minutes to several hours is the usual spacing. Loss of internet will cause the displayed errors only when you need it or it's a scheduled access that fails.

Try it someday.


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

JoeKustra said:


> Also, it does not "call home" for every action. Those calls can be seen with the System Information display. It varies, but I find 90 minutes to several hours is the usual spacing.


I have to disagree. The box is *constantly *chattering to 'mom' outside the normal daily downloads. It seems to have a teeny tiny local cache for things like icons, and 'explore this show' seems to be totally online real time access. Lots of other things as well.

When a problem like the longish spinning blue circle manifests in the way that it has, every single time you see it is because the TiVo server is not responding fast enough to a request. So opening a folder, it apparently talks to mom, for example.


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## FitzAusTex (May 7, 2014)

This happens WAY, WAY WAY too much. It should virtually never happen. Tivo needs to invest in the infrastructure to ensure this is a nonexistent issue. I can't even delete something off my roamio when this **** is happening. Ok, i feel better, thanks.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

dougdingle said:


> I have to disagree. The box is *constantly *chattering to 'mom' outside the normal daily downloads. It seems to have a teeny tiny local cache for things like icons, and 'explore this show' seems to be totally online real time access. Lots of other things as well.


search is a good example of one of the other things. if i suspect tivo network sluggishness, a quick search (or search failure) has confirmed my suspicions.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

MikeBear said:


> Obviously there are issues, but there's no need to possibly piss off the Tivo admins that can actually fix these problems.


*DUDE*, that is the funniest response I ever saw.

I had so much more written, but got distracted and decided not to send it.

OK, here is a little piece of it:

*This is also why I rarely go to TivoCommunity, being there are a small number of people WHO LIVE ON HERE AND MAKE COMMENTS LIKE THAT AND BELIEVE A STATEMENT LIKE YOU MADE.*

*Have a nice day!*


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

FitzAusTex said:


> This happens WAY, WAY WAY too much. It should virtually never happen. Tivo needs to invest in the infrastructure to ensure this is a nonexistent issue. I can't even delete something off my roamio when this **** is happening. Ok, i feel better, thanks.


It used to be way way worse when the C133 was in effect for a year. They fixed that in 20.4.1 when it came out on 04-14-2014, which showed that a lot was in the software in the box, but also they had problems with their servers. You could do nada when they had that problem before that when I got my RP on 20.3.6.6 on 10-12-2013. Yes, I keep very good track of their software. A bit anal on this topic. We pay a fortune for the equipment and get screwed on the monthly service (yes, no Lifetime here so don't even bother to comment, not you of course, I love your post!). OH WELL...


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## hillyard (Nov 1, 2011)

Yep ... Raising prices and slowing down is a prime way of pleasing customers.

Also why do you need internet to delete things on your own box.

Seems that they want to be Apple while doing less than Apple


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

hillyard said:


> Also why do you need internet to delete things on your own box.


That is the most insane thing. Far more than anything else, I get the spinning circle when deleting things. There is no reason it should ever need to phone home for permission to delete something. If they are gathering marketing data, then for God's sake gather it in the background and phone home with it when your server is talking, don't make me wait for your worthless servers.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tomhorsley said:


> Far more than anything else, I get the spinning circle when deleting things.


Interesting, I used to see this but it's been quite a while. In fact, until the past few days I don't recall seeing the blue circle at all for ages...


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I used to see this but it's been quite a while.


Another irritating thing I get all the time on delete is when I pick the "stop recording and delete" option. A good 50% of the time, the blue circle will spin, the recording will (eventually) stop, but it won't delete the show. I have to hit "Clear" again to make it delete. They should just change the interface so that hitting "Clear" means "Stop recording" and not bother to bring up the menu of options since I wind up having to hit "Clear" twice anyway .


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tomhorsley said:


> Another irritating thing I get all the time on delete is when I pick the "stop recording and delete" option. A good 50% of the time, the blue circle will spin, the recording will (eventually) stop, but it won't delete the show.


And this is the same for me as the previous example...used to see it, haven't in ages.

What's interesting is that different people are obviously having different Blue Circle experiences during this resurgence. We're both seeing it, but obviously it's been a lot worse for you than for me.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And this is the same for me as the previous example...used to see it, haven't in ages.
> 
> What's interesting is that different people are obviously having different Blue Circle experiences during this resurgence. We're both seeing it, but obviously it's been a lot worse for you than for me.


TiVo servers may have more than one location, giving some people more problems that others. I just starting getting the circles but only for a few seconds now and then.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

lessd said:


> TiVo servers may have more than one location, giving some people more problems that others. I just starting getting the circles but only for a few seconds now and then.


The problem isn't the servers, of course. It is a hugely flawed design where performance of the product is negatively impacted by outside influences while attempting to perform operations which should should be entirely local.

Box: "Hello server. He is deleting Law & Order S3E11. Hello.?" Circle Circle.Circle. "Hello? Hello? " Circle Circle

Server: "Got it."

"TiVo" : "Hello server. He has opened the NCIS Folder." Circle Circle Circle. "Hello?" Circle Circle Circle.

Server: "Got it."

Stupidity. Absolute Stupidity.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

RoyK said:


> The problem isn't the servers, of course. It is a hugely flawed design where performance of the product is negatively impacted by outside influences while attempting to perform operations which should should be entirely local.
> 
> Box: "Hello server. He is deleting Law & Order S3E11. Hello.?" Circle Circle.Circle. "Hello? Hello? " Circle Circle
> 
> ...


??? Is this based on actual testing, e.g., packet sniffing with WireShark, or are you just speculating?

That the TiVo HD UI is very dependent on a good internet connection to a TiVo server is a pretty well accepted consensus. But your scenario that the TiVo is just improperly responding to a "Got it" message is questionable unless you have specific evidence.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

dlfl said:


> ??? Is this based on actual testing, e.g., packet sniffing with WireShark, or are you just speculating?
> 
> That the TiVo HD UI is very dependent on a good internet connection to a TiVo server is a pretty well accepted consensus. But your scenario that the TiVo is just improperly responding to a "Got it" message is questionable unless you have specific evidence.


I suspect he's just speculating, but I also suspect he's pretty close. And he's not suggesting that the TiVo is _improperly responding to_ a "Got it" message, but rather that the TiVo is _improperly waiting for_ a "Got it" message. If TiVo wants to capture user actions in that much detail, they should queue the messages to the server and upload them asynchronously, with no waiting and thus no impact on the user interface.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

L David Matheny said:


> I suspect he's just speculating, but I also suspect he's pretty close. And he's not suggesting that the TiVo is _improperly responding to_ a "Got it" message, but rather that the TiVo is _improperly waiting for_ a "Got it" message. If TiVo wants to capture user actions in that much detail, they should queue the messages to the server and upload them asynchronously, with no waiting and thus no impact on the user interface.


Precisely.


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## RoamioJeff (May 9, 2014)

RoyK said:


> The problem isn't the servers, of course. It is a hugely flawed design where performance of the product is negatively impacted by outside influences while attempting to perform operations which should should be entirely local.
> 
> Box: "Hello server. He is deleting Law & Order S3E11. Hello.?" Circle Circle.Circle. "Hello? Hello? " Circle Circle
> 
> ...


Doesn't the Tivo need to sync its data with Tivo servers online? I mean, if we have the ability to go online via the web (or through the Tivo app) to manage our recordings, you would think that the data needs to be syncronized with an online server. So, if there is an interruption or delay in one's internet connection, it is reasonable to assume that Tivo is going to need to retry/wait for an acknowledgment during an operation that updates the state of the device.

Maybe the fix for this is adding a setting in Tivo to disable remote user management for those who don't want to see an occasional blue circle, or if they have sketchy internet connections.

Full disclosure: I have never experienced the issue, and am a pretty heavy user of my Tivo. I also have a solid internet connection.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

RoyK said:


> The problem isn't the servers, of course. It is a hugely flawed design where performance of the product is negatively impacted by outside influences while attempting to perform operations which should should be entirely local.
> 
> Box: "Hello server. He is deleting Law & Order S3E11. Hello.?" Circle Circle.Circle. "Hello? Hello? " Circle Circle
> 
> ...


How did you know that what I just did


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

L David Matheny said:


> I suspect he's just speculating, but I also suspect he's pretty close. And he's not suggesting that the TiVo is _improperly responding to_ a "Got it" message, but rather that the TiVo is _improperly waiting for_ a "Got it" message. If TiVo wants to capture user actions in that much detail, they should queue the messages to the server and upload them asynchronously, with no waiting and thus no impact on the user interface.


Sorry, I misinterpreted his speculated example. Apparently we don't know the exact details but it's easy to suspect that better software design would improve things. I can't say I'm surprised however. TiVo's aren't exactly a high volume consumer product with a huge software development budget.

I wonder if opting out of viewing data collection speeds things up? Probably not.

I only get the circles on rare occasions.


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

dlfl said:


> ??? Is this based on actual testing, e.g., packet sniffing with WireShark, or are you just speculating?
> 
> That the TiVo HD UI is very dependent on a good internet connection to a TiVo server is a pretty well accepted consensus. But your scenario that the TiVo is just improperly responding to a "Got it" message is questionable unless you have specific evidence.


He's likely speculating, but empirically, based on many many instances of carefully observing the TiVo's behavior, he's likely correct. The TiVo seems to need to talk to mom for functions which should not require that, lots and lots of functions.

This is not a court of law, so speculation is not only allowed but encouraged. And since the people at TiVo are not only being tight lipped about what's going on, but are having tech support claim every call they receive about it is the first one, I suggest rampant speculation is mandatory.

I've owned my Roamio/Mini package for about six months, and this is the third time this has happened. I owned my S3's for seven years before that without any issues. Clearly, something is amiss with the way things are being managed at mom's place.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Is the spinning circle on Roamio's essentially the same kind of problem that generated the many complaints about the HD UI on the Premiere's? (I never had a Premiere.)


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

I've had my Pro for a few months now and I've seen the spinning circle when trying to do pretty much everything with it since shortly after I installed it. Open a show to read the full description...spinning circle. Delete a show...spinning circle. Rearrange some OnePasses...spinning circle. And on and on. I've fully accepted that the spinning circle is a new "feature" of Tivo so I'm hoping at some point we'll get some elevator music to play with it. Or maybe some kind of recorded voice.

"your recorded show is as important to us as it is for you, please hold on while we wait for your show. Your show should be up in the next 45...seconds. Please hold on, we're almost there. Thank you for waiting here is your show."


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

chrishicks said:


> I've had my Pro for a few months now and I've seen the spinning circle when trying to do pretty much everything with it since shortly after I installed it. Open a show to read the full description...spinning circle. Delete a show...spinning circle. Rearrange some OnePasses...spinning circle. And on and on. I've fully accepted that the spinning circle is a new "feature" of Tivo so I'm hoping at some point we'll get some elevator music to play with it. Or maybe some kind of recorded voice.
> 
> "your recorded show is as important to us as it is for you, please hold on while we wait for your show. Your show should be up in the next 45...seconds. Please hold on, we're almost there. Thank you for waiting here is your show."


How long does the circle typically show? If it was more than a second or two, and occurring as often as you say, it would be totally intolerable to me.

I think it's safe to say that for most Roamio users it occurs either never, or at least not very often. I have to think either (1) you have poor network connectivity or (2) you have a defective Roamio.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

dlfl said:


> Is the spinning circle on Roamio's essentially the same kind of problem that generated the many complaints about the HD UI on the Premiere's? (I never had a Premiere.)


HD on a Premier??? That is so funny. I suffered with an XL4 for 18 months and had to run it in SD mode it was so darn slow. ERT (Executive Customer Service for those of you who do not know) gave me a Roamio Pro for $200 plus warranty (have it for 2 years now) with trading in my XL4 because I *****ed so much and they knew I was right. Wish they would have thrown in a Lifetime too. Now they won't do crap for me. Tivo is not a cheap proposition, but there are no better boxes out there even with their SEVERAL MAJOR FLAWS THAT THEY NEVER FIX. Spinning wheel is just one of them.

I am going to get a Bolt from Best Buy for a week and then return it. I really want to see what it does to see the future of Tivo, but I cannot afford another box from them anymore. I am just going to hook it up Moca and transfer stuff to it and then test it. Most of the things wrong with the software can be tested without the cable card. I *might* swap my cable card for a few hours just to see. Cannot deal with only 4 tuners and .5 or 1gb! They just introduced this to suck more money out of people, when most probably want a Bolt Pro, which I hear will be out next year for WHO KNOWS HOW MUCH MONEY???!!!


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> Is the spinning circle on Roamio's essentially the same kind of problem that generated the many complaints about the HD UI on the Premiere's? (I never had a Premiere.)





samccfl99 said:


> HD on a Premier??? That is so funny. I suffered with an XL4 for 18 months and had to run it in SD mode it was so darn slow. ERT (Executive Customer Service for those of you who do not know) gave me a Roamio Pro for $200 plus warranty (have it for 2 years now) with trading in my XL4 because I *****ed so much and they knew I was right. Wish they would have thrown in a Lifetime too. Now they won't do crap for me. Tivo is not a cheap proposition, but there are no better boxes out there even with their SEVERAL MAJOR FLAWS THAT THEY NEVER FIX. Spinning wheel is just one of them.
> 
> I am going to get a Bolt from Best Buy for a week and then return it. I really want to see what it does to see the future of Tivo, but I cannot afford another box from them anymore. I am just going to hook it up Moca and transfer stuff to it and then test it. Most of the things wrong with the software can be tested without the cable card. I *might* swap my cable card for a few hours just to see. Cannot deal with only 4 tuners and .5 or 1gb! They just introduced this to suck more money out of people, when most probably want a Bolt Pro, which I hear will be out next year for WHO KNOWS HOW MUCH MONEY???!!!


Wish you wouldn't quote my question (which you didn't answer) as a justification for another of your rants.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

dlfl said:


> How long does the circle typically show? If it was more than a second or two, and occurring as often as you say, it would be totally intolerable to me.
> 
> I think it's safe to say that for most Roamio users it occurs either never, or at least not very often. I have to think either (1) you have poor network connectivity or (2) you have a defective Roamio.


No, it is not the connectivity at all. I have Comcast Blast and I use Moca and it is super fast (the internet that is). It gets worse when you are recording 4 or more shows at once. It usually happens when in My Shows when selecting something, that is what I have found. Sporadic. Also I am always over 90% and have almost 1000 recordings and over 100 onepasses. I always wondered if that had anything to do with it. The Roamio is much faster than a Premier, but slow (OS) as far as a DVR is concerned compared to most any other DVR. Still, it buffers all tuners and the 2 sided guide and the Onepass make it tolerable, OH AND THE SPACE OF COURSE! I am waiting to see when they are going to get their head out of their A$$e$ and release 20.5.4a on the Roamio (not expecting a miracle though, Tivo does not have any of those). I have a Mini too and it has it and QuickMode is interesting, maybe for news or something.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

samccfl99 said:


> Also I am always over 90% and have almost 1000 recordings and over 100 onepasses. I always wondered if that had anything to do with it.


You may be onto something here...I am rarely above 10%, and rarely experience blue circles at all, and only for a couple of relatively short periods have they been a problem. (I do have over 100 One-Passes, though...)


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## WorldBandRadio (Dec 20, 2010)

dlfl said:


> ...I think it's safe to say that for most Roamio users it occurs either never, or at least not very often.....


What percentage of the Roamio users did you survey to arrive at that conclusion?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> ..........
> I think it's safe to say that for most Roamio users it occurs either never, or at least not very often. ..........





WorldBandRadio said:


> What percentage of the Roamio users did you survey to arrive at that conclusion?


Just a speculation -- I think a reasonable one.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You may be onto something here...I am rarely above 10%, and rarely experience blue circles at all, and only for a couple of relatively short periods have they been a problem. (I do have over 100 One-Passes, though...)


Maybe, but I've had just a few instances of circles and after a short time they stopped happening, and nothing had changed in either number of recordings or number of one-passes. There were no GC or System connections going on at those times (which might have caused increased disk and/or network workload).


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

dlfl said:


> Wish you wouldn't quote my question (which you didn't answer) as a justification for another of your rants.


People just do not know when to not be ridiculous and make a comment like that. This is why I hardly ever come to TivoCommunity. The few bad eggs. Well maybe more than a few. I am a systems analyst for over 25 years and I observe all. I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, ESPECIALLY THE BUGS.

*WHATEVER..............*


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## ertyu (Nov 4, 2003)

I'm seeing this as well, intermittently at odds times, it even prevents other parts of the interface from working at times. For example, if I'm trying to delete a show and live tv is playing in the video window, I can't pause the video window for the several seconds it takes for the blue circle to vanish.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

ertyu said:


> I'm seeing this as well, intermittently at odds times, it even prevents other parts of the interface from working at times. For example, if I'm trying to delete a show and live tv is playing in the video window, I can't pause the video window for the several seconds it takes for the blue circle to vanish.


Thankfully it never affects the DVR part of the box, nothing does. The hardware is *great* on the Tivo, parts of the software, not so much.

If you disconnect the box from the internet, it stops happening, always has...


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

Well, I just checked my DD-WRT router, and it already has tcpdump installed, so maybe if I get bored someday, I' record all the traffic to and from the tivo and see what happens when I delete a show .


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

dlfl said:


> How long does the circle typically show? If it was more than a second or two, and occurring as often as you say, it would be totally intolerable to me.
> 
> I think it's safe to say that for most Roamio users it occurs either never, or at least not very often. I have to think either (1) you have poor network connectivity or (2) you have a defective Roamio.


It varies in times. Sometimes it will only show for a few seconds, say 2-3, while other times it is around 45 seconds or so. It gets frustrating at times when the wait is on the high side.

1. My internet speed should be more than enough for the box(entire house is on a wired connection with no connection issues on things like an XBox One or PS4 for example):



2. It's possible but as of now the spinning circle is my only issue and it doesn't happen 100% of the time.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

chrishicks said:


> It varies in times. Sometimes it will only show for a few seconds, say 2-3, while other times it is around 45 seconds or so. It gets frustrating at times when the wait is on the high side.
> 
> 1. My internet speed should be more than enough for the box(entire house is on a wired connection with no connection issues on things like an XBox One or PS4 for example):
> 
> ...


Instead of "network connectivity" I should have said "network connectivity or TiVo server response". AFAIK, we haven't ruled out the theory that the problem is sluggish TiVo server response. It's also possible something between you and the servers slows things down -- just not happening during speed tests, or not in the path used by the speed tests.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

dlfl said:


> Instead of "network connectivity" I should have said "network connectivity or TiVo server response". AFAIK, we haven't ruled out the theory that the problem is sluggish TiVo server response. It's also possible something between you and the servers slows things down -- just not happening during speed tests, or not in the path used by the speed tests.


The problem is neither. The problem is that the software is waiting for a response to a transmission that isn't necessary to the function being performed. If TiVo wants to be informed when I delete a program they can do that in background. There is NO valid reason why I should be made to twiddle my thumbs while they pass the data. It's just plain old sloppy programming done with no thought of real-world conditions. The kind of thing an inexperienced programmer does until he learns better.


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

RoyK said:


> The problem is neither. The problem is that the software is waiting for a response to a transmission that isn't necessary to the function being performed. If TiVo wants to be informed when I delete a program they can do that in background. There is NO valid reason why I should be made to twiddle my thumbs while they pass the data. It's just plain old sloppy programming done with no thought of real-world conditions. The kind of thing an inexperienced programmer does until he learns better.


What he said.

This idea that it's only happening to a few people with connectivity problems is laughable, the very simple proof being that disconnecting from the Net stops the problem from happening. Logically, that implies the TiVo is waiting for a response from the mothership that has nothing to do with what is happening, like opening a folder, or deleting a show. Disconnect from the Net, and it stops trying to confirm anything.

If TiVo wants to know every little thing I'm doing with the box (and they definitely do), gather the damn data and dump it during the daily connection, not while I'm using the box. The current method is neither sophisticated nor helpful to the end user.


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## WorldBandRadio (Dec 20, 2010)

dlfl said:


> Just a speculation -- I think a reasonable one.


I think it is far more likely that TiVo is having server issues, given their track record in that area.


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## WorldBandRadio (Dec 20, 2010)

RoyK said:


> ... If TiVo wants to be informed when I delete a program they can do that in background. There is NO valid reason why I should be made to twiddle my thumbs while they pass the data. It's just plain old sloppy programming done with no thought of real-world conditions. The kind of thing an inexperienced programmer does until he learns better.


Bingo!

I could never figure out why TiVo made the communications about menu activity synchronous instead of asynchronous.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dougdingle said:


> .......
> This idea that it's only happening to a few people with connectivity problems is laughable .....


Why? What evidence is there to suggest more than a small percentage of users are having frequent circle delays, whether caused by connectivity problems or by any other cause(es)?

If the incidence rate is as high as you seem to think, I would expect a lot more action on this forum and torchlight processions marching to TiVo headquarters. But who knows -- maybe the reaction is just starting to build?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

RoyK said:


> The problem is neither. The problem is that the software is waiting for a response to a transmission that isn't necessary to the function being performed. If TiVo wants to be informed when I delete a program they can do that in background. There is NO valid reason why I should be made to twiddle my thumbs while they pass the data. It's just plain old sloppy programming done with no thought of real-world conditions. The kind of thing an inexperienced programmer does until he learns better.


I agree. But still .... how many bytes are we talking about being transferred here as a result of a remote click? With a good internet connection and good server response, how could a few hundred (or less) bytes cause a delay of not only one or two seconds but up to 45 seconds as reported? And not just occasionally but often? If the server connection/response is that bad then don't you have serious problems beyond just a spinning circle?


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

dlfl said:


> Why? What evidence is there to suggest more than a small percentage of users are having frequent circle delays, whether caused by connectivity problems or by any other cause(es)?
> 
> If the incidence rate is as high as you seem to think, I would expect a lot more action on this forum and torchlight processions marching to TiVo headquarters. But who knows -- maybe the reaction is just starting to build?


I'm a new Tivo owner, have a Tivo Roamio basic that's ONLY on antenna right now, 60 meg Charter internet, and I have this issue at times.

Perhaps there's so many newer owners, they DON'T KNOW what to expect, or what's normal or abnormal, and have just been living with it?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Oo


dlfl said:


> I agree. But still .... how many bytes are we talking about being transferred here as a result of a remote click? With a good internet connection and good server response, how could a few hundred (or less) bytes cause a delay of not only one or two seconds but up to 45 seconds as reported? And not just occasionally but often? If the server connection/response is that bad then don't you have serious problems beyond just a spinning circle?


Only if I have a need to connect to that server.
It only takes a half second to say hello on the phone but if it's six or seven rings before the call is answered elapsed time can be considerable. 
Calling TiVo every time I delete a program makes no more sense than calling the grocer every time I want to get a beer from the fridge and having to wait for him to unlock it.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

MikeBear said:


> ............
> Perhaps there's so many newer owners, they DON'T KNOW what to expect, or what's normal or abnormal, and have just been living with it?





RoyK said:


> Only if I have a need to connect to that server.
> It only takes a half second to say hello on the phone but if it's six or seven rings before the call is answered elapsed time can be considerable.
> Calling TiVo every time I delete a program makes no more sense than calling the grocer every time I want to get a beer from the fridge and having to wait for him to unlock it.


I'm convinced and getting worried now. TiVo servers handle a heavy load with service connections -- but they are in the background and a few seconds latency doesn't matter. If TiVo's are actually waiting for a real-time synchronous server response to remote key actions, that is actually more demanding than controlling high bitrate streaming video, which buffers heavily. That design choice is so basically lame I'm experiencing denial -- surely that isn't what they did!


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

It's apparent to almost all of us with a programming background (I was a Unix/Linux network dev for many years) that Tivo's network code in the HDUI is appallingly bad because it's tied way too closely to their servers. Not only because it's too synchronous between the UI and the servers but also because they're apparently not using these huge hard drives to properly cache data they have no business going out to the server to get on the fly. Stuff like doing anything with show descriptions, upcoming eps, scheduling etc. 

Or they're collecting every damn menu selection in real time so no matter what you're doing outside of watching a recording, you're screwed if a server is slow to respond. Either way, it's BAD CODE and we're calling them on it every time these blue circles pop up for everyone.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

Yes, welcome to the wonderful world of Tivo UN-development in California. One wonders how they do anything and sometimes I think their testers (if they have any) are blind and deaf. Also a programmer for over 25 years and have been thru most all DVR's. The box is GREAT and much of the software is, but they have a thick skull when it comes to testing and some design. There is no better DVR in my opinion and they keep trying to make it more than a DVR, which sometimes can be nice, but they overlook basic major bugs for years. Have you seen the disastrous comcast X1 in action???


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## evoldal (Aug 13, 2015)

I have been having the exact same issue on a Premiere and Roamio Plus issue only started a few months ago, previous 10 years on other boxes had no issue. Not sure what the originating issue with but it kind of sucks for what we pay for these devices...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

samccfl99 said:


> This is why *I hardly ever come to TivoCommunity*.


If only that were true.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

ej42137 said:


> If only that were true.


People never change here. Same cranky ones coming out of the woodwork. We all remember each other and have our own opinions. You never see me making a nasty comment without a personal attack MR.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

ej42137 said:


> If only that were true.


It's because you respond to those who are 100% negative that they keep coming back. There are few like that. I sometimes leave a "thanks", hoping they will get even more mad.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

samccfl99 said:


> People never change here. Same cranky ones coming out of the woodwork. We all remember each other and have our own opinions. You never see me making a nasty comment without a personal attack MR.


Yes you do keep things "interesting" here -- in the spirit of the old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times!". 

I'm guessing you're not aware of forum rule #8:


> Refrain from "yelling"  Remember, ALL CAPITAL LETTERS in print is considered yelling.


But that's OK, forum readers learn to compensate with AVC (Automatic Volume Control), i.e., you become the boy who cries wolf yells too often.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

samccfl99 said:


> People never change here. Same cranky ones coming out of the woodwork. We all remember each other and have our own opinions. *You never see me making a nasty comment without a personal attack *MR.


You are 100% correct, whenever you make a nasty remark to me you make sure it's also a personal attack.. even when I directed nothing towards you in the thread.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

JoeKustra said:


> It's because you respond to those who are 100% negative that they keep coming back. There are few like that. I sometimes leave a "thanks", hoping they will get even more mad.


Geez, thanks for giving "yelling sam" that idea -- he left thanks on my previous post chiding him.  Now we'll never know whether thanks are sincere or sarcastic (which kind of defeats their purpose, doesn't it?)


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

dlfl said:


> Geez, thanks for giving "yelling sam" that idea -- he left thanks on my previous post chiding him.  Now we'll never know whether thanks are sincere or sarcastic (which kind of defeats their purpose, doesn't it?)


Oops. I never thought of that. It's FL. Something in the water.


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## gespears (Aug 10, 2007)

Just a point of data. I very rarely see the blue circle except for the time the TiVo servers were down, then I saw them continuously. I never saw them when I had the 3TB drive in my Pro and it was almost full, and then same when I put the 6TB in and it's not even half full.


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's apparent to almost all of us with a programming background (I was a Unix/Linux network dev for many years) that Tivo's network code in the HDUI is appallingly bad because it's tied way too closely to their servers. Not only because it's too synchronous between the UI and the servers but also because they're apparently not using these huge hard drives to properly cache data they have no business going out to the server to get on the fly. Stuff like doing anything with show descriptions, upcoming eps, scheduling etc.
> 
> Or they're collecting every damn menu selection in real time so no matter what you're doing outside of watching a recording, you're screwed if a server is slow to respond. Either way, it's BAD CODE and we're calling them on it every time these blue circles pop up for everyone.


Back about a thousand years ago, I had several DirecTivos, and a programmer buddy and I hooked up the data serial port and took a peek at the data stream and the logs and what was being sent back to mom (guide data, updates, etc. came down from the satellite).

Pretty comprehensive. Every single button press on the remote, and I mean *every single one*, even volume and mute, were logged and sent in to mom.

There is no reason to suspect anything has changed in that regard, and frankly, I wouldn't have a problem with that if, as before, the stuff was stored in a log file and uploaded with the daily call. It's the synchronous real time nature of it, the dependence on the servers to be running at full speed for me to have a seamless experience, that is so aggravating.

When it all works, it's fine, I almost never see the blue circle (and even if I do, it's only for an instant). But when the server(s) have an issue, or someone else between me and the servers has an issue, it's painful.

I'm actually somewhat surprised that it doesn't happen more often, considering that the TiVo site itself is so painfully dog slow it's like being back on 1.5 gbps DSL instead of the 60/6 service I now have. Seriously, compared to 95% of the sites I visit, it takes *forever *to do *anything *on the site.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dougdingle said:


> I'm actually somewhat surprised that it doesn't happen more often, considering that the TiVo site itself is so painfully dog slow it's like being back on 1.5 gbps DSL instead of the 60/6 service I now have. Seriously, compared to 95% of the sites I visit, it takes *forever *to do *anything *on the site.


I just got 150Mb/s from Comcast, if all I did was visit the TiVo web sight I could go back to DSL at 1Mb/s.
I also get the blue circle now and then, that is bad news on TiVo part. Taking the internet off is not so easy and I am using MoCa on all but one unit.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

JoeKustra said:


> It's because you respond to those who are 100% negative that they keep coming back. There are few like that. I sometimes leave a "thanks", hoping they will get even more mad.


I know, you're right, I just can't help myself sometimes.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

While I'm sure TiVo collects a lot of data from every unit, including the Mini, these are all done during the scheduled VCM connection. From my location the address used is 204.176.49.116. During every operation (like program deletion) I've never detected a connection, so I believe the data is accumulated and send per the schedule.

The daily guide update accesses many sites. I have observed failures of the VCM connection, and scheduling periods vary from 90 minutes to 6 hours.

The guide connection starts with /TMS_US/ in case you're interested. I have one Roamio, two Premieres and two Minis. I don't leave my router logging enabled since it make a really big log really fast. I don't dispute that the spinning circle is network/server related, but I do doubt it's from every action.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

You've totally missed the point that the slowness only happens occasionally when their servers are having issues (i.e., when plenty of folks come here to ***** about it). You're not going to be able to recreate this at will.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

tomhorsley said:


> Well, I just checked my DD-WRT router, and it already has tcpdump installed, so maybe if I get bored someday, I' record all the traffic to and from the tivo and see what happens when I delete a show .


Hope you do this. Facts would be helpful.

Could one use WireShark on a PC on the same network to do this?


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## WorldBandRadio (Dec 20, 2010)

JoeKustra said:


> ...I've never detected a connection, so I believe the data is accumulated and send per the schedule....


I see network activity from the TiVo out to the Internet that correlates with my usage of the menus.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

dlfl said:


> Could one use WireShark on a PC on the same network to do this?


I wouldn't count on it. I'm very fuzzy on this stuff, but I'm not sure if it is possible to watch traffic not intended for you without special equipment. Since it all has to go through my router, I'm sure I could see it there. (I just need to spend some time figuring out how to run tcpdump and where to collect the output).


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

WorldBandRadio said:


> I see network activity from the TiVo out to the Internet that correlates with my usage of the menus.


I just went through all my menus, 1P manager and caused the following:

[site allowed: 204.176.49.116] from source 192.168.1.4, Thursday, November 12, 2015 13:02:35
[site allowed: tivo-0.vo.llnwd.net] from source 192.168.1.4, Thursday, November 12, 2015 13:01:47

This backs up your observation. That IP address is always used during the scheduled VCM connection also. :up:

I use a Netgear R7500. If I enable the security to block sites, it causes this logging.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Hope you do this. Facts would be helpful.
> 
> Could one use WireShark on a PC on the same network to do this?


It depends on the switch in the router, and you must use promiscuous mode in Wireshark. It generally doesn't work unless you set up the switch to mirror all traffic to the monitoring PC.

Instead I have a dumb hub I use for this. It's old but there's no switch inside it. It would go Tivo <-> dumb hub <-> router with the monitoring PC also connected to the dumb hub.


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## WorldBandRadio (Dec 20, 2010)

JoeKustra said:


> ...This backs up your observation....


I've tried to watch the traffic to see what is going on, but some of the traffic is https.

Regardless, there does seem to be a lot of traffic in sync with, and sometimes blocking, my menu navigation.

I'm not sure what TiVo's rationale was to insert Internet traffic in between the steps of menu navigation. Especially when it appears to rely upon the reliability and availability of TiVo servers to navigate the menus quickly.


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

I've also noticed that my Tuning Adapter access light flickers with just about any remote key press. 

Why the TA needs to be pinged when I change the volume on my receiver, for example, is completely beyond me.


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

Yes, I agree. Something went to crap with the last update. I would welcome 30 second delay or even a minute, instead I get the C501, resulting in not being able to use many apps, including Streambaby. I'm now wondering if the same update turned off my slide remote keyboard search input. For the last year Tivo has been almost perfect & now C501 & remote keyboard problems. I use Streambaby to play my pc videos & remote keyboard on Youtube. I'm one bummed customer here.


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## VicVinegar (Sep 18, 2015)

Not sure if it is related, but I had sluggishness including the blue circle that quickly went away around last weekend. 

Today I upgraded the HDD and now it is sluggish in the guide. Everything else seems to be working alright.


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## gespears (Aug 10, 2007)

I've got a 6TB in mine and it's not having any issues. You might want to try a C&DE.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Things are slow tonight. It doesn't last.


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## tim1724 (Jul 3, 2007)

dougdingle said:


> I've also noticed that my Tuning Adapter access light flickers with just about any remote key press.
> 
> Why the TA needs to be pinged when I change the volume on my receiver, for example, is completely beyond me.


The TiVo is simply telling the TA "hey, this guy is still watching this channel, so keep sending it to me."

If the TA stops getting notifications that someone is watching (or that a program is being recorded) it will tell the SDV server that it can stop sending out that channel. If nobody else is watching the channel, it might want to stop sending it out in order to free it up bandwidth so it can send out some other channel instead (when another TA or set-top box asks for one).


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