# Upgrading from TivoHDs, which new hardware to buy?



## jstanik (Jun 23, 2015)

Hello everyone,
I've been sifting through posts but haven't found exactly what I'm looking for, so I'm hoping someone won't mind giving me some guidance. I apologize for the rambling thread, but I haven't bought Tivo hardware in a long while. Any input will be most welcome.

I have 4 tivoHDs. I recently cancelled my Comcast service, after ongoing disputes about correct CableCard costs. (Despite years worth of $1.50 per card bills, they now assure me it should always be $9.95/mo for each additional "outlet", and that the $1.50 fee is just for charging you for extra tuner access when your first "free" outlet is an M-card.) 

We are happy shifting to streaming services and OTA, at least for the summer. (It is a shame that SlingTV is so hamstrung by content companies.) But, I think there's a decent chance we go back to a simple cable package at some point. My TivoHDs are working fine, but some streaming services aren't available. And if I ever go back to Cable, having just one Roamio with a CableCard will nullify a lot of the hassle I encountered.

So, I'm interested in the new Roamio + Mini hardware. Before I buy anything (likely through Tivo, for any loyalty discount I get), I want to confirm what I should be aiming for.

1) I will definitely use OTA now, but may want to add cable in the future. Am I correct thinking that only the Roamio Basic or Roamio OTA handle OTA signal at all? If I want both OTA and cable, can I use a single Roamio Basic or do I need two Roamios? I like the additional tuners of the Roamio Plus, but I need OTA. I don't anticipate a lot of use for the streaming function, so that's not a huge draw for me.

2) If I eventually have two Roamios, do they play well together? Can I watch (stream/transfer) protected content from one Roamio on another? Are there any issues with having two of these devices?

3) If I have multiple Roamios, how well does a Mini work? Can I stream from both Roamios onto a single Mini? How does the reserving of tuners work with the Mini? Can I stream protected content from a Roamio to a Mini? 

4) I use Tivo Desktop Plus to transfer movies to my home PC, remove commercials, and transfer back to the Tivo. Does this process work the same on a Roamio? I may just set up a Plex server, if that works well.

5) Should I be waiting for whatever is announced in July? I'm a bit worried about the lifetime service with Mini purchase deal going away, but maybe the July device announcement will be important for my OTA use.

Thanks to anyone helping me make a smart choice


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

You seem to be very concerned with protected content. Is there a reason? I only mention it because it will influence most answers and anyone giving those answers should be aware of that condition. I could answer all those questions, but not when protected content is a factor.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

IOW (I think) is your Tivo s3 model HD set up to ignore the cci bytes? That cannot be done on the Roamio and such content can't be transferred for viewing to the mini or the Tivo HD. It can be viewed on the mini via streaming but not viewed at all on the HD. It's worth keeping a properly set up HD in the mix for any channels still within its tuning range and capability for which the cci bytes are set. Such content can then be transferred, uncrippled, for viewing on all your Roamios, minis and HDs.

Once the protected content issue is out of the way (for example if the above paragraph means nothing to you), your questions can be answered fairly straightforwardly.


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## jstanik (Jun 23, 2015)

My questions regarding protected content really only pertains to my going back to cable. Coming from the TivoHDs, there was no way to stream protected content. I assume transferring normal content isn't difficult, but I wanted to confirm that you could stream protected content as an option (between the recording Roamio and another Roamio or Mini). One hassle we currently have is HBO recordings. If we go back to cable and get HBO that way, the Roamio would be better than the current TivoHD if it can stream protected content. Of course, I'd prefer a Tivo HBO Go app, so I'll be rooting for that as well.

It hadn't occured to me that the current TivoHDs would be a good solution for OTA. Two of mine have lifetime, so there's no reason to stop using those. Can a Mini transfer from a TivoHD directly? Or do Minis only work with Roamio/Premiere? And of course, I could look into finishing the TivoHD cci mod, but none of mine have that mod as of yet.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

A Mini requires a Premier (4 tuner) or Roamio. Sorry.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

jstanik said:


> 1) I will definitely use OTA now, but may want to add cable in the future. Am I correct thinking that only the Roamio Basic or Roamio OTA handle OTA signal at all? If I want both OTA and cable, can I use a single Roamio Basic or do I need two Roamios? I like the additional tuners of the Roamio Plus, but I need OTA. I don't anticipate a lot of use for the streaming function, so that's not a huge draw for me.
> 
> 2) If I eventually have two Roamios, do they play well together? Can I watch (stream/transfer) protected content from one Roamio on another? Are there any issues with having two of these devices?
> 
> ...


#1 Yes. No; yes (though you correctly figured out that your HD can be the OTA though it will have to feed back into your home net through the a Roamio and not directly to the mini).
#2 Yes. Yes with some lack of convenience compared to your current situation because stream, but no transfer). Not really.
#3 Well. Yes. I don't know. Yes.
#4 Yes (though I use kmmtg, not really very familiar with Tivo desktop) since your existing system doesn't handle protected content either). Yes.
#5 No (IMO), deal is through July anyway (previous announced deadlines have come and gone without effect. As to your maybe, no (IMO).


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Let me expand on the tuner allocation for a Mini. TiVo has "dynamic" tuner allocation that works very well, but can be hard to explain. There are four tuners in my base Roamio. When it powers up (and after diags/Standby), all four will be on the same channel. If you select a new channel, it will get one of the tuners. This will happen for up to four different channels. If you select a tuner that is on a "background" channel, you will be taken to that tuner. A tuner will be used if it is on a desired channel. You can't manually cause two tuners to have the same channel.

The Mini, when "Live TV" is selected gets a tuner and its buffer. This will never be the foreground host tuner. Now that Mini can select any channel, and if the tuner is active on that channel it will be ignored and your Mini's channel will start with an empty buffer, even if that channel is on a host's tuner. So, a Mini can cause the Roamio to have two tuners on the same channel. The Mini will keep ownership of the tuner until either you hit the TiVo button or there is no remote activity for four hours.

If there is an EAS test or active message, the Mini will show that message. That causes the Mini to use a tuner and it will keep it for four hours unless you hit the TiVo button. The Mini doesn't seem to know the TV is turned off even though it could be connected via HDMI. Series 1 Mini goes to 1080i, Series 2 goes to 1080p I understand but don't have one. I don't use 1080p on my Roamio. A Series 2 Mini has rf type remote ability built-in. I just bought a Roamio remote for my Mini to keep my brain for working too hard finding buttons. If the host is in Standby mode the EAS alerts are ignored.

One last comment. TiVo supports the Mini with MoCA or Ethernet only. I have used a wired to wireless adapter without any problems. My Roamio is on such an adapter now. I do not suggest you try this. You will get little or no support, and it costs much more.


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## jstanik (Jun 23, 2015)

Wil,
Thanks for your detailed reply. I hadn't tried KMTTG yet, but I gather I should. I have had performance issues with TDP, but after a confusing fight with PyTivo, I shied away from user solutions to the file transfer issue. 

If I could just confirm one thought: If I use a TivoHD for OTA, I cannot watch live OTA content on a Roamio or Mini, correct? I would have to record on the TivoHD, and then transfer the file to the Roamio, which could then play or stream to a Mini?

Joe,
Thanks for explaining the sole question Wil answered with "I don't know" . The 4-hour reservation time I hadn't found elsewhere, so that's helpful info. I had read that the Mini cannot use the live buffer when selecting a new channel that is already on one of the Roamio tuners. The biggest down-side to that is being unable to hop back and forth between two shows on the Mini (I typically have both tuners paused on shows I am watching, and at live commercial breaks, I pause and switch to the other tuner). And it sounds like the Mini can even prevent that use on a Roamio, if a paused background tuner can be claimed by a Mini on another TV. Still, I think I can deal with that minor loss.

I expect I'll go with a Roamio Basic to start, as well as one or two Minis. I'll need the ability to watch live OTA TV on the Roamio and Minis, so the HDs may sit idle (time to finish the cci mod!). I'll plan for the Mini 2, mainly for the remotes, though the 1080i vs. 1080p upgrade info is helpful. I've still been back on 720p with my HDs  All my rooms have ethernet, so I don't have to worry about setting up wireless or MoCA.

Has anyone encountered significant omissions in the Roamio/Mini capability? And is upgrading hard drives easy (or at least no harder than using WinMFS was in the past)? Thanks, I'm looking forward to getting into the current generation of Tivos


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

You might spend some time reading the posts in the Mini thread. It does have some quirks.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

To replace hard drive unplug roamio, install new drive, plug in roamio. No winfms etc required. All built in.


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

RoyK said:


> To replace hard drive unplug roamio, install new drive, plug in roamio. No winfms etc required. All built in.


Hi,
That's for up to a 3TB hd. The Roamio will do everything but you will lose any recordings and probably have to repair the CC. If you want to use a 4-6 TB drive, you can use MSR Reformatter. See here 
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=528428 
or possibly the new MFS Tools 3.2 found here
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=529148


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

I"m in a similar situation at the OP. My problem isn't Comcast's cablecard charges though. They charge the correct amount - $1.50/cablecard - here in NM but my bill is still wrong. It works out as follows:
$1.50 cablecard 1
$1.50 cablecard 2
$10.00 HD Technology Fee -- wtf
$1.50 Broadcast TV Fee - another wtf
-$2.50 customer-owned equipment adjustment

Since the first cablecard should be free, I believe my bill should actually be another $1.50 but it's not worth arguing at this point.

I have the TivoHD with one cablecard and a SD HDHomeRun Prime for the second cablecard. I also have a 2-tuner SD HDHomerun HDHR-US for OTA TV. The TivoHD has been modified to ignore the CCI bit so there are no limitations on transferring recordings to a PC. It's a good setup but I've been looking at moving to the Tivo Roamio too. 

The OP mentioned using OTA for a while. He should realize that only the base model and the OTA specific model will do that. There's also the killer restriction of only one-mode at a time -- it's either OTA or Cablecard but not both at the same time. And the models that can do OTA don't have the stream functionality built-in so a Tivo Stream device is an extra purchase if that's important to him. The last and maybe most critical thing is that the base model is only 4 tuners instead of 6.

I've gotten used to some OTA channels that aren't on Comcast but still would want cablecard functionality so that means two Tivo's. The OP has plenty of TivoHD's available for OTA but they won't integrate well since they are incompatible with the Tivo Mini. A complete revamp of my system allowing OTA would mean a Tivo Roamio Plus and a Tivo Roamio OTA both with Lifetime service and then as many Tivo Mini's as you have TV's. 

I calculate the Tivo costs before mini's as:
Tivo Roamio Plus - $710 includes lifetime
Tivo Roamio OTA - $400 includes lifetime
subtotal: $1110
Add two 6Tb HD's for maximum recording capacity:
6TB HD - $230
6TB HD - $230
subtotal: $460

Total: $1570

Add some mini's and you're getting up to around $2000. Even the $1570 made me balk for the time being. 

If I were the original poster, I'd get a single Tivo Roamio Plus and use the Tivo HD's for anything OTA or just forget about OTA and sell them unless there's something on OTA he can't live without. This makes life simple -- upgrade the HD to a 6TB drive -- and then just buy as many mini's as necessary and you have a nicely integrated system. You shouldn't have a problem with Comcast regarding cablecard since you only need one and the first should be free. This gets you 6 tuners which is 2 less than your 4 TivoHD setup but hopefully it's enough when they are in a central pool.

I give my WMC setup better marks for the combo OTA and Cablecard integration but it won't be supported in Windows 10. The HDHomerun Prime also only does 3 tuners per cablecard compared to the Roamio Plus 6 tuners which is a factor when Comcast wants to charge $9.95/mo for another cablecard. If the OP is concerned at all about the CCI bit, Comcast does the following out here: SEC, Encore, HBO, Cinemax, and Hallmark Movie have copy once set. Everything else is copy freely. 

My parents have the Roamio so am very familiar with it. I really like it but its biggest faults are its dependence on a connection to the Tivo mothership for things to work (not just guide data) and the whole CCI bit copy once thing which they have to honor. I bought the parents the Tivo Roamio Pro but its HD failed within 3 mo's. Tivo failed to honor the warranty because the debugging effort required opening the case and that voided the warranty. Not even the hard drive manufacturer would honor the warranty because of the deal they had with Tivo. I replaced the HD to get the system up and running in a timely manner since the alternative was being without a TV for a week or more but won't make the mistake of ever buying the Roamio Pro again to avoid installing a larger HD on the Roamio Plus. Also beware that the Roamio centralization scheme puts all your eggs in one basket -- if something goes wrong, you have no TV until you send the unit back to Tivo and receive another minus your recordings. I think you also pay for shipping and the Tivo's default warranty is only 90 days. Your paying for a $149 replacement fee after 1 year and a $348 replacement fee after 3 years - at least these used to be the fees but I'm not sure any more. Maybe your lifetime subscription is just gone.


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## jstanik (Jun 23, 2015)

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I ordered hardware from Tivo directly, which will arrive this week. I purchased:
Roamio Basic ($100, refurb)
2x Tivo Mini-v2 ($150/ea)
3x Slide remote (Free, just by asking nicely!)

The TivoHD I was deactivating had 8 years subscription, and they carried over the $7/mo monthly sub price to the new Roamio Basic. At $84/yr, I opted not for the lifetime service, thinking it may get me benefits down the road.

I'll probably add a Roamio Plus if/when I get cable service again. I didn't want to have Minis unable to control the OTA tuners on my existing TivoHDs, so I decided I needed the Basic and not a Plus to start. The Basic won't ever need a CableCard, so the "Additional Outlet Fee" won't crop up, and I'll have 10 tuners (6 cable/4 OTA) to work with 

I plan to swap in a larger drive immediately, and have the original on-hand if there are later drive issues. This strategy worked great on my TivoHDs.

It's amusing how different Comcast employees understood CableCard pricing. Even as I called to cancel, the CSR said "Oh, the Tivo CableCard is $1.50". I told her that if she was right, I would not have been cancelling. Either way, the Roamio is a nice option to dodge that egregious pricing model.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Sounds great. I do wonder why the TiVo.com site indicate a refurb basic Roamio is $50.


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