# Sorry Tivo, you lost a life-long customer today



## taos_jake (Jan 18, 2011)

No doubt a familiar story, but still an aggravating one. Having been foolish enough to buy year-long service contracts for five years, I naively assumed that in the middle of a contract I could cancel and be refunded the remainder, if only on a monthly pro-rated basis. After all, I'm being transferred abroad, not jumping ship to a rival.

But no, the fine print says no refunds, so no refunds. Tivo saves $60 and loses a potentially life-long customer. Reminds me of my credit card company.

Business fail.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Or customer fail for signing a contract five times without understanding the terms.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

taos_jake said:


> No doubt a familiar story, but still an aggravating one. Having been foolish enough to buy year-long service contracts for five years, I naively assumed that in the middle of a contract I could cancel and be refunded the remainder, if only on a monthly pro-rated basis. After all, I'm being transferred abroad, not jumping ship to a rival.
> 
> But no, the fine print says no refunds, so no refunds. Tivo saves $60 and loses a potentially life-long customer. Reminds me of my credit card company.
> 
> Business fail.


Well, at least you admit it's your fault - and BTW, five years is not a 'lifetime'...


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

A lot of companies include compensation for employees that have to cancel contracts. They don't expect every service provider to cancel contracts without penalty. Did all your other service providers do that for you?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

> Sorry Tivo, you lost a life-long customer today


technically you really weren't a life-long customer


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

taos_jake said:


> No doubt a familiar story, but still an aggravating one. Having been foolish enough to buy year-long service contracts for five years, I naively assumed that in the middle of a contract I could cancel and be refunded the remainder, if only on a monthly pro-rated basis. After all, I'm being transferred abroad, not jumping ship to a rival.
> 
> But no, the fine print says no refunds, so no refunds. Tivo saves $60 and loses a potentially life-long customer. Reminds me of my credit card company.
> 
> Business fail.


First you say you are a lifelong customer, then you say you're a potentially lifelong customer which isn't even true because you will be quitting your tivo use to move abroad where one can only assume you will not be using a tivo.

I can hardly wait to see what happens when your subscription ends and then automatically renews for another year.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

taos_jake said:


> I naively assumed that in the middle of a contract I could cancel and be refunded the remainder, if only on a monthly pro-rated basis.
> 
> But no, the fine print says no refunds, so no refunds.


I love how people always blame someone else for their misunderstandings.

Nothing about this was Tivo's fault yet you post as if you're the victim and Tivo took advantage of you....really? Always read the fine print and if you don't agree with any of it, then don't buy the product.

Where did you get the idea that Tivo would refund anything, if you broke the contract?


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> technically you really weren't a life-long customer


Maybe he's five years old.


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

TiVo scored themselves $60 at the expense of a customer leaving the country. It's TiVo's petty pursuit of nickels that's frustrating for customers, especially one that has probably spent over $1000 with the company. I don't see how this is a win for TiVo.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jakerome said:


> TiVo scored themselves $60 at the expense of a customer leaving the country. It's TiVo's petty pursuit of nickels that's frustrating for customers, especially one that has probably spent over $1000 with the company. I don't see how this is a win for TiVo.


Sometimes one has to enforce the contracts that their customers sign, as the customer had the option of monthly service, I have a contract with my cable co, they will not increase my price and i will pay a penalty if I want to quit the cable co early, I get something they get something, win-win, I could pay monthly and if i quit within say 6 months i would be a winner, but i don't plan to quit, and should the time come that i have to quit the penalty will be much less than i have saved over the last 5 years.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

jakerome said:


> It's TiVo's petty pursuit of nickels that's frustrating for customers, especially one that has probably spent over $1000 with the company.


So Tivo is the bad guy because someone didn't read their contract? Come on.

The OP is not a victim here. He agreed to a contract and broke it, plan and simple.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I am not a life long customer since I have only been a customer a little over 10 years but I do only buy lifetime service subscriptions because nothing else makes sense to me. I understand this service agreement like many others I enter into doesn't provide for a refund if I decide to or must end the service.

My advice is always read and understand any contracts entered into because in the event of a dispute or a unilateral dissolution, it is never the fault of the party that requires adherence to the terms of the contract and the terms in the case are very clear and make perfect sense.


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## videogeek (Jan 18, 2011)

I can understand the contract when you buy a new Tivo, i.e. I get a new box for $99 and have to pay $20 for 1 year. The box is clearly more than $99. But once that is up, it is rubbish. My cable provider does not demand a contract like that. Actually I think Tivo would be better off working harder on their product (I have a lot of complaints). 

I got my tivo in December, but am already looking for alternatives, not because the product is horrible but because the company does not leave me feeling good.


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## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

videogeek said:


> I can understand the contract when you buy a new Tivo, i.e. I get a new box for $99 and have to pay $20 for 1 year. The box is clearly more than $99. But once that is up, it is rubbish. My cable provider does not demand a contract like that. Actually I think Tivo would be better off working harder on their product (I have a lot of complaints).


Apples and oranges. You're not just paying for the box itself. Again, perform your due diligence before buying.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

videogeek said:


> I can understand the contract when you buy a new Tivo, i.e. I get a new box for $99 and have to pay $20 for 1 year. The box is clearly more than $99. But once that is up, it is rubbish. My cable provider does not demand a contract like that...


I guess I don't understand your statement about "But once that is up, it is rubbish." From the TiVo Payment Plans:



> *After the end of your annual commitment,* TiVo will continue to charge you on an annual basis at the then-current annual rate. You will receive a notification approximately 30 days prior to your renewal date to notify you of the renewal. Your credit card on file with us will be charged the then-annual renewal rate on your renewal date. *You will have up to 30 days after the renewal date to change or cancel your service plan and receive a full refund.*


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

videogeek said:


> not because the product is horrible but because the company does not leave me feeling good.


LOL. TiVos do not give backrubs.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

This confuses me. You have the option of paying by the year or by month. If you pay by the month (don't want a long term contract) you will pay more in a year. If you sign a year long contract you pay less per month because you're willing to commit to a full year. Unless of course you aren't really committing to a full year but instead saying you want it both ways.

You assume that risk when you agree to the year long contract. If you don't want to take on the risk, pay monthly and pay more long term if you keep the service. If neither option is attractive to you then don't sign up for the service.

If they are going to pro rate the year long contract what would the point of having a monthly option be? Hmm since I've only used 6 years of my 'lifetime' service I wonder how much I should get back of that pro-rated?

Good freaking grief.


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

Stupid customer is stupid.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

write them an email or letter and explain your situation. MIght get some traction.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jakerome said:


> TiVo scored themselves $60 at the expense of a customer leaving the country. It's TiVo's petty pursuit of nickels that's frustrating for customers, especially one that has probably spent over $1000 with the company. I don't see how this is a win for TiVo.


because TiVo does not want to get into the business of tracking TiVo DVRs or following up on people leaving the country to see that they did that versus just wanting to change the terms they agreed to.

The OP should spend his energy on putting the 60$ on the company.

If it was me I would spend the time to see what relative would agree to place my TiVo DVR and a slingbox in their home so I could fire up my laptop and watch "local" shows abroad

PS - I do so enjoy the peculiar irony of TiVo lost me asa customer since they would not let me bail on my contract like I wanted to.


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

You guys just don't get it. The OP isn't a victim, and he's not stupid. He's annoyed by a petty $60 that TiVo has declined to credit him, and as a result TiVo has lost yet another customer. Which is just emblematic of the community the last 10 years, slowly shrinking as all the "stupid" and "entitled" customers leave. Good for TiVo. Soon enough, their remaining userbase will resemble the group of die-hard supporters that frequent TiVoCommunity, and you won't have to deal with "I quit" threads anymore. Soon thereafter, you won't have TiVo itself to even discuss, as at some point they'll be content with patent licensing/ lawsuit revenue and maybe sell the embedded software. I wouldn't count on there be another TiVo DVR after the Premiere at the pace the company is shedding subscribers.

So yeah, mock the OP all you want and point out that he should've been more informed. So what if you're right? Doesn't change the fact that this is simply another example of TiVo shooting itself in the foot.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jakerome said:


> You guys just don't get it. The OP isn't a victim, and he's not stupid. He's annoyed by a petty $60 that TiVo has declined to credit him, and as a result TiVo has lost yet another customer.


He can not use a TiVo where he is going.
All TiVo did was keep to the terms he agreed to. 
TiVo wants to keep its canceled subs to a minimum, it truly matters at the investors meetings.

How is TiVo shooting itself in the foot?
There are actually times where the customer is not right and the bottom line matters. TiVo is stuck square in the middle of such a time


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

jakerome said:


> You guys just don't get it. The OP isn't a victim, and he's not stupid. He's annoyed by a petty $60 that TiVo has declined to credit him, and as a result TiVo has lost yet another customer.


Tivo did not lose a customer because they wouldn't refund any money, the customer was already cancelling his subscription before that happened.



> Which is just emblematic of the community the last 10 years, slowly shrinking as all the "stupid" and "entitled" customers leave. Good for TiVo. Soon enough, their remaining userbase will resemble the group of die-hard supporters that frequent TiVoCommunity, and you won't have to deal with "I quit" threads anymore. Soon thereafter, you won't have TiVo itself to even discuss, as at some point they'll be content with patent licensing/ lawsuit revenue and maybe sell the embedded software. I wouldn't count on there be another TiVo DVR after the Premiere at the pace the company is shedding subscribers.


Oops. I nodded off there for a minute. You were saying?



> So yeah, mock the OP all you want and point out that he should've been more informed. So what if you're right? Doesn't change the fact that this is simply another example of TiVo shooting itself in the foot.


Just another entitled person that thinks that "binding contract" means optional at the users discretion.


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

TiVo has been treating customers "right" for 5+ years now, and their revenues reflect that.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub...lScWJ0aWc&hl=en&single=true&gid=2&output=html


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jakerome said:


> TiVo has been treating customers "right" for 5+ years now, and their revenues reflect that.
> 
> https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub...lScWJ0aWc&hl=en&single=true&gid=2&output=html


so your exhaustive analysis is that it all spreads from treatment of customers 

Moxi must have been really, really mean to their customers then 

I mean it is not like the economy and trying to compete with cable company DVRs could have had any impact on a nice to have item like a TiVo DVR


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

The point is we're part of a shrinking community, and it's pathetic that the remaining, vocal members of this community seem to be cheer every rat fleeing the sinking ship. It may have been before your time Zeo, but there was a day when TiVoCommunity had a reputation as one of the friendliest, most welcoming forums related to home theater. Questions were answered without sarcasm, folks were encouraged to join in and departing members were given reasons to come back.

Now? There's a certain giddiness when a TiVo user departs, always ready with an excuse for TiVo ink. We can circle the wagons all we want, but the radius just keeps shrinking. 

After 10 years of recommending TiVoes to all my friend, that's over now. I loved the company, and the product, and I've made a ton trading & investing in their stock. But I've run out of reasons to recommend buying a TiVo. And trust me, I want TiVo to give me an excuse to recommend their products again. Great customer service is one way. Delivering on promises is another. Engaging with the community was one differentiator, but they decided to turn their Twitter account into a glorified RSS feed and essentially become invisible to the public outside of this forum... and they're pretty scarce these days, even here.

Finally, I'll note that your excuses for TiVo's lackluster performance point the finger elesewhere-- competition, the economy. Well, how about looking at the incremental improvements TiVo has made the last 6 years since the DirecTV HD TiVo was rolled out. What innovation have they introduced since then that makes the TiVo a substantially better product in 2011 than it was in 2005? They've had opportunities and taken a few swings, but nothing has delivered on the promise that was just around the corner in 2005.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jakerome said:


> The point is we're part of a shrinking community, and it's pathetic that the remaining, vocal members of this community seem to be cheer every rat fleeing the sinking ship. It may have been before your time Zeo, but there was a day when TiVoCommunity had a reputation as one of the friendliest, most welcoming forums related to home theater. Questions were answered without sarcasm, folks were encouraged to join in and departing members were given reasons to come back.


I came in about 2 years before the decline of TCF. As for this community - once TiVo desktop came out and folks found they could pull shows off without hacks, that siphoned off a large part of the tech leaning base that was welcoming and helpful. TiVo folks used to post here and people were respectful they were posting about the company they worked for and were limited in what they could publicly say.
Questions with some merit are still routinely answered without sarcasm and people like to be helpful here.

So what was the OP's question we should have all helpfully answered?
Just what kind of friendly welcome to I post for someone who is ranting about 60$ on a contract they agreed to and stomping their feet about never using a TiVo ago 2 sentences after saying they were going abroad where a TiVo would not work anyway.
That same kind of childish attitude moved the TiVo folks out of offering general help or discussion here as well. We get some great specific technical help in here but it stays limited to tech help due to some childish behavior just like what the OP is doing. How do you think he would react to a TiVo person saying sorry, but we really need to stick to our terms to keep our bottom line looking better?

In what way should I take such a post in any way seriously?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Of course all this arguing is overlooking the fact that back when TiVo had industry-leading products, Lifetime made the most sense. Now avoiding TiVo makes the most sense.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Put the Tivo up for sale on Craig's list or ebay. There are probably many people who would like to try out a Tivo with a few months of service to see if they like it.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Bigg said:


> Of course all this arguing is overlooking the fact that back when TiVo had industry-leading products, Lifetime made the most sense. Now avoiding TiVo makes the most sense.


I think Tivo still leads the industry for the over the air market.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Bigg said:


> Now avoiding TiVo makes the most sense.


If you are a TiVo bashing troll.


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

Bigg said:


> Of course all this arguing is overlooking the fact that back when TiVo had industry-leading products, Lifetime made the most sense. Now avoiding TiVo makes the most sense.


I thought you had an Elgato at school and a Comcast DVR when you stay at home with mommy and daddy.

What are you still doing on a Tivo users' forum if your mommy and daddy no longer have a Tivo?


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## xultar (Jun 15, 2005)

JimboG said:


> I thought you had an Elgato at school and a Comcast DVR when you stay at home with mommy and daddy.
> 
> What are you still doing on a Tivo users' forum if your mommy and daddy no longer have a Tivo?


I thought it was mums and dadums. This is a total joke just tryin to lighten the mood.


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## xultar (Jun 15, 2005)

I have to admit I understand the OP's frustration with TiVo. Frankly we've all had a frustration like this with some company so we should all understand.

My recent no TiVo situation is recent. I know people think that people without TiVos shouldn't come here but. Why shouldn't we? I still love TiVo we just broke up and I'm looking for reasons to rekindle the relationship. Who hasn't wanted to resmash an ex or two or three? No I don't watch that show I just hear the vernacular and I like it o.k?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

I don't get it...

What does the $60 have to do with TiVo losing you as a customer? You were already canceling, they had already lost you as a customer.

Even if they hadn't charged you $60, you still would've canceled.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> I don't get it...
> 
> What does the $60 have to do with TiVo losing you as a customer? You were already canceling, they had already lost you as a customer.
> 
> Even if they hadn't charged you $60, you still would've canceled.


They (TiVo) did not charge the OP the $60, TiVo would not refund the $60 from a cut short contract the OP had with TiVo, the OP though he had a good reason for TiVo to give him back the $60, he told them he was going out of the country, maybe he has no friends or family to have given the TiVo to and try it out for the remaining months, it would have made a good gift.


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

I don't understand the attitude that a company is bad if they honor contracts and expect customers to do the same. I have contracts for phone, cable, insurance, mortgage, etc. They all have clauses for cancellation. When I moved a few years ago, I had to break some contracts, and paid the cancellation. It wasn't the service providers' fault that I decided to move. I may have asked for an out (don't recall), but resenting a negative response never entered my mind.

Now if TiVo was failing to meet their commitment, that would be different. My cell phone provider stated they served my new area, but actual reception was awful, going from 4 bars to no signal while I was sitting still. After some discussions and pointing out that we had contracted under the assumption that their coverage statement was accurate, they let us cancel.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

lafos said:


> I don't understand the attitude that a company is bad if they honor contracts and expect customers to do the same. I have contracts for phone, cable, insurance, mortgage, etc. They all have clauses for cancellation. When I moved a few years ago, I had to break some contracts, and paid the cancellation. It wasn't the service providers' fault that I decided to move. I may have asked for an out (don't recall), but resenting a negative response never entered my mind.
> 
> Now if TiVo was failing to meet their commitment, that would be different. My cell phone provider stated they served my new area, but actual reception was awful, going from 4 bars to no signal while I was sitting still. After some discussions and pointing out that we had contracted under the assumption that their coverage statement was accurate, they let us cancel.


Your being too logical, that not what the OP wants to read.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

jakerome said:


> You guys just don't get it. The OP isn't a victim, and he's not stupid. He's annoyed by a petty $60 that TiVo has declined to credit him, and as a result TiVo has lost yet another customer.


So if the OP is making payments on a car or house, should the lien holders let him out of those contracts early without a penalty as well?

If you don't like what's in a contract, then don't sign up. Tivo enforced what he agreed to, plain and simple!


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

Wow, the strident knee-jerk reaction here is one symptom of what's wrong with TivoCommunity nowadays. 

That said, most contracts have some allowance for things out of your control - such as military being posted out of the country, moving out of the country, or death/serious disability. Yes, this includes contracts like rent, cell phones, and so on. 

It's pretty clear that most here just want to blame the OP - and sure, he's nominally at fault - but it's definitely 100&#37; poor customer service not to recognize that there's at least some genuine issue here, one that could easily be resolved by a relatively inexpensive credit. In fact, even assuming the OP might someday have bought just one more TiVo, when he gets back from his posting abroad, Tivo has definitely lost money on him at this point - they made $60, sure, but at the cost of customer goodwill and loss of a potential returning customer.

There are many reasons why almost everyone loves to hate their cable company (nationwide, not this forum full of geeks) for the most part... crappy customer policies/treatment is one such reason. Not saying there should be some blanket policy necessarily - but some flexibility can go a long, long way.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TheWGP said:


> Wow, the strident knee-jerk reaction here is one symptom of what's wrong with TivoCommunity nowadays.
> 
> That said, most contracts have some allowance for things out of your control - such as military being posted out of the country, moving out of the country, or death/serious disability. Yes, this includes contracts like rent, cell phones, and so on.


this is a prepaid contract. Most of your examples are for contracts that are paid monthly and they simply let the person stop using the service and stop sending payments. Rarely is a credit issued.

What is so knee jerk about pointing out to the OP that is was not 'fine print' but a rather the main point of the prepay discount that it is non refundable


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

Come on Zeo, we all know that we are just a bunch of fanboys and Tivo apologists here. Everything Tivo does IS wrong, but we faithfully and blindly ignore it and cover it up. Tivo is no better than a cable co DVR, and we are all stupid for paying for the Tivo box and the subscription costs. Tivo has crappy guide data and can't do other things that other DVR's can do. The things that Tivo does have that others don't, just suck and are of no interest to anyone. Suggestions are useless and Tivo has shown no innovation in 10 years. They are just out to rip off and alienate their customers. They refuse to treat their loyal customers properly. I mean if my local car dealer will give me a free 2011 model to replace my dead 2006 model, why can't Tivo give me free Premiere to replace my dead S2? They also unfairly enforce signed contracts when nobody else does, it's not like there is such thing as 'contract law'. Tivo is just a money hungry company rolling in cash. They should care more about the people like the wonderfully compassionate likes of, say, BP or some of the Wall Street firms. 

Did I miss anything?


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

lafos said:


> A lot of companies include compensation for employees that have to cancel contracts. They don't expect every service provider to cancel contracts without penalty. Did all your other service providers do that for you?


Compainies should not be responsible for consumers employment choices.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

lessd said:


> They (TiVo) did not charge the OP the $60, TiVo would not refund the $60 from a cut short contract the OP had with TiVo, the OP though he had a good reason for TiVo to give him back the $60, he told them he was going out of the country, maybe he has no friends or family to have given the TiVo to and try it out for the remaining months, it would have made a good gift.


I understand that part, but what does it have to do with TiVo losing a customer? They were losing him anyway, he was canceling. Why would waiving the $60 save him as a customer when he can't use tivo?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

TheWGP said:


> Wow, the strident knee-jerk reaction here is one symptom of what's wrong with TivoCommunity nowadays.
> 
> That said, most contracts have some allowance for things out of your control - such as military being posted out of the country, moving out of the country, or death/serious disability. Yes, this includes contracts like rent, cell phones, and so on.
> 
> ...


If in all contracts one could get out of by just saying I sick, going out of the USA, etc. some people would lie (not people on this forum of course) to get out of a contract they don't want anymore, TiVo can't send out a PI to check that the OP is going out of the USA to try and save itself $60, it most likely cost TiVo about $5 or more just to talk to the OP. That what insurance is for, the unexpected, I don't think anybody is going to insure a TiVo contract but home mortgage payments if you die, sometimes.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

lessd said:


> If in all contracts one could get out of by just saying I sick, going out of the USA, etc. some people would lie (not people on this forum of course) to get out of a contract they don't want anymore, TiVo can't send out a PI to check that the OP is going out of the USA to try and save itself $60, it most likely cost TiVo about $5 or more just to talk to the OP. That what insurance is for, the unexpected, I don't think anybody is going to insure a TiVo contract but home mortgage payments if you die, sometimes.


Doesn't matter - it's a cost of doing business. Tivo is just being *****y and losing customer goodwill.

I've said it before and will say it again: Tivo Community is just the cluster of super-diehard Tivo fans who will say almost anything for the company. This is a very insular reaction that's been tempered by years of marginalization and decreasing interest from Tivo, the company - remember, Tivo's business plan long term is centered on large media provision companies, not end-users. It should worry at least some members of the community, at least in the back of their minds, that "regular people" who happen along almost universally depart in short order, with negative opinions of Tivo in the process.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter; flame away and assure yourself that you're right all you want, and I'm not denying that - I'm just saying the reaction of both Tivo and this community is cause for concern.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Come on Zeo, we all know that we are just a bunch of fanboys and Tivo apologists here. Everything Tivo does IS wrong, but we faithfully and blindly ignore it and cover it up. Tivo is no better than a cable co DVR, and we are all stupid for paying for the Tivo box and the subscription costs. Tivo has crappy guide data and can't do other things that other DVR's can do. The things that Tivo does have that others don't, just suck and are of no interest to anyone. Suggestions are useless and Tivo has shown no innovation in 10 years. They are just out to rip off and alienate their customers. They refuse to treat their loyal customers properly. I mean if my local car dealer will give me a free 2011 model to replace my dead 2006 model, why can't Tivo give me free Premiere to replace my dead S2? They also unfairly enforce signed contracts when nobody else does, it's not like there is such thing as 'contract law'. Tivo is just a money hungry company rolling in cash. They should care more about the people like the wonderfully compassionate likes of, say, BP or some of the Wall Street firms.
> 
> Did I miss anything?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TheWGP said:


> Tivo is just being *****y and losing customer goodwill.
> 
> - remember, Tivo's business plan long term is centered on large media provision companies, not end-users.


so how are they loosing customer goodwill when the moneymaking customer is large media provision companies

and how will our "insular" viewpoint that the guy signed a contract and it is not a wise bottom line decision to TiVo to credit him back change the business plan of TiVo to be all consumer centric and lose money? The whole slant of this thread just makes no sense


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So what was the OP's question we should have all helpfully answered?
> Just what kind of friendly welcome do I post...


Sometimes just listening and validating their feelings without calling them a moron is all it takes. This board could have turned this customer around for Tivo. Instead they made sure he won't be back here again when he moves back to this country. Well done!


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

taos_jake said:


> Having been *foolish* enough to buy year-long service contracts for five years, I *naively* assumed that in the middle of a contract I could cancel and be refunded the remainder, if only on a monthly pro-rated basis.





HiDefGator said:


> Sometimes just listening and validating their feelings without calling them a moron is all it takes.


I'd say his feelings were validated. He's a naive fool, said so himself. We all just verified that for him.

There are two ways the OP could have gone about this.

1. Come here spouting off at the mouth about how Tivo sucks and he got screwed which won't garner you much sympathy or help here.

2. State the grievance and ask for help. Maybe someone could have given him some suggestions or pointed him in the direction of one of the Tivo guys that come here once in a while who may have been able to escalate further than the front line CSR the OP dealt with.

There are way too many of these 'one and done' posts and it gets tiresome, especially given the usually uninformed or illegitimate claims, hence the tough responses. Oh, and I highly doubt TCF telling the guy he got screwed would encourage him to come back to the company that did the screwing.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

WhiskeyTango said:


> There are two ways the OP could have gone about this.


I guess he didn't realize that. Stupid ex-Tivo customer. What was he thinking coming here to vent.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

WhiskeyTango said:


> There are way too many of these 'one and done' posts and it gets tiresome, especially given the usually uninformed or illegitimate claims,...


Perhaps the people who are tired of them should stop responding to those posts. It's not what is said, its how it's said thats important.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> I think Tivo still leads the industry for the over the air market.


MCE. It's even more attractive than on the cablecard side since there are a lot of cheap OTA tuners out there.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Come on Zeo, we all know that we are just a bunch of fanboys and Tivo apologists here. Everything Tivo does IS wrong, but we faithfully and blindly ignore it and cover it up. Tivo is no better than a cable co DVR, and we are all stupid for paying for the Tivo box and the subscription costs. Tivo has crappy guide data and can't do other things that other DVR's can do. The things that Tivo does have that others don't, just suck and are of no interest to anyone. Suggestions are useless and Tivo has shown no innovation in 10 years. They are just out to rip off and alienate their customers. They refuse to treat their loyal customers properly. I mean if my local car dealer will give me a free 2011 model to replace my dead 2006 model, why can't Tivo give me free Premiere to replace my dead S2? They also unfairly enforce signed contracts when nobody else does, it's not like there is such thing as 'contract law'. Tivo is just a money hungry company rolling in cash. They should care more about the people like the wonderfully compassionate likes of, say, BP or some of the Wall Street firms.
> 
> Did I miss anything?


I loved reading your post, you're right on about innovation and customer loyalty, HOWEVER, they are not rolling in money. They aren't doing very well financially.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Bigg said:


> I loved reading your post, you're right on about innovation and customer loyalty, HOWEVER, they are not rolling in money. They aren't doing very well financially.


that zoom went way over the kid's head.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

If you are given the choice of two plans, one of which saves you $26.40 if you pay for a year in advance, doesn't plain common sense tell you that you can't opt for the cheaper overall cost and then expect to have all the advantages of the pay-as-you-go plan (e.g., pro-rated refund on cancellation)?

As for "hardship" refunds, I agree with the earlier poster. TiVo shouldn't have to expend resources validating the authenticity of such requests when the money at stake is relatively small, and they can't just accept such claims at face value because doing so essentially allows yearly plan subscribers the same features as the more costly plan they rejected initially.

TiVo could offer a refund based on charging the monthly rate for service used, e.g., after six months the refund would be:

$129.00 - (6*$12.95) = $51.30

But this yields less revenue than the current plan so TiVo could charge a "cancellation fee" of perhaps $5.00 to compensate for this loss.
Thus the refund would be $46.30. With this formula there would be no refund after 9 months of service.

However whether TiVo wants to offer this more complicated formula is purely up to them. They have no moral or ethical obligation to do so.

This original issue is so miniscule relative to the important TiVo-related issues that started dominating this thread. Yet another "TiVo sucks --- no it doesn't" thread.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> Sometimes just listening and validating their feelings without calling them a moron is all it takes. This board could have turned this customer around for Tivo. Instead they made sure he won't be back here again when he moves back to this country. Well done!


If I was an actual representative of TiVo inc. then sure I would validate his complaint and respectfully work with him on what resolution is available if any. If none I would apologize for the inconvenience and ask him to give me a call if/when he came back to the states to see what we could do to make him a TiVo user again. TiVo already did some version of that

Guess what? I am an independent person posting on a forum and I can validate that his rant will be treated as such.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

WhiskeyTango said:


> I'd say his feelings were validated. He's a naive fool, said so himself. We all just verified that for him.
> 
> There are two ways the OP could have gone about this.
> 
> ...


Did it ever occur to anyone else here that he might have done BOTH?

If you are leaving the country, and have proof, most companies will allow you to cancel contracts without penalty. Prepaid is a little different, but I have had some success with that as well.

I also just got my car's manufacturer to partially pay for a repair that was out of warranty. They called it a "good will" payment. Obviously $500 is nothing to a big company like Subaru, but it is a big deal to a customer, and those things can help maintain customer loyalty or get others interested in your brand.


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## keirgrey (Nov 20, 2001)

jakerome said:


> TiVo scored themselves $60 at the expense of a customer leaving the country.


Soo...TiVo is driving you out of the country?


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## HellFish (Jan 28, 2007)

BobCamp1 said:


> Did it ever occur to anyone else here that he might have done BOTH?
> 
> If you are leaving the country, and have proof, most companies will allow you to cancel contracts without penalty. Prepaid is a little different, but I have had some success with that as well.


When you didn't have success, did you go online and complain about how horrible the company is?

I am currently in month 14 out of 24 with my DTV contract. I've had comcast for appx 6 months now, but haven't canceled DTV because they charge $20 per month for breaking the contract. I made my bed, now I'm wallowing in it. I knew the term & conditions of my DTV contract when I decided to go with the Premiere/Comcast combo a few months ago, just as the OP should have known there was a reason he was getting a discount for signing up for the 1 year contract with Tivo.


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

A smart move would have been to give the OP a $60 credit to be used at TiVo.com upon his return. That would address the customer's issue and provide an incentive for him to return to the fold.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

jakerome said:


> That would address the customer's issue and provide an incentive for him to return to the fold.


The OP doesn't have an issue, he broke a contract early and has to pay a fee (per the contract) and was leaving Tivo anyway. He's just trying to make an issue, where none exists.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

jakerome said:


> A smart move would have been to give the OP a $60 credit to be used at TiVo.com upon his return. ..........


I like! Much simpler than my formula given a few posts ago, and it doesn't reduce TiVo's revenue. Actually I seem to remember posts saying you can put your service on pause and pick it up later. Am I dreaming this?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

HellFish said:


> I am currently in month 14 out of 24 with my DTV contract. I've had comcast for appx 6 months now, but haven't canceled DTV because they charge $20 per month for breaking the contract.


Are you paying for monthly service that you don't want or need to keep from paying $20 a month early exit fee? That doesn't seem reasonable. Wouldn't the $20 be less costly?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dlfl said:


> I like! Much simpler than my formula given a few posts ago, and it doesn't reduce TiVo's revenue. Actually I seem to remember posts saying you can put your service on pause and pick it up later. Am I dreaming this?


You used to be able to put the service on pause back in the day of month to month plans. Along with 1 year or more commitment and prepays came the end of pausing.

It likely was costing TiVo too much money to track versus the good will engendered, mush like a prorated refund on prepays or tracking credits at TiVo.com for the same.
People keep forgetting that TiVo is a small company that operates very close to a zero bottom line. Unless it can be shown that a LOT more boxes/subs would be sold then TiVo simply has to defer to what materially costs TiVo less. Goodwill simply does not help them with the very real problem of will they even turn any profit this quarter


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

HellFish said:


> When you didn't have success, did you go online and complain about how horrible the company is?
> 
> I am currently in month 14 out of 24 with my DTV contract. I've had comcast for appx 6 months now, but haven't canceled DTV because they charge $20 per month for breaking the contract. I made my bed, now I'm wallowing in it. I knew the term & conditions of my DTV contract when I decided to go with the Premiere/Comcast combo a few months ago, just as the OP should have known there was a reason he was getting a discount for signing up for the 1 year contract with Tivo.


I did complain at first when the dealer wouldn't cover any of it. I posted in a forum just like this one, and they didn't put me down and tell me I was a bad, evil person. They told me to contact Subaru of America. I did, and they gave me a partial credit.

I just hope you're not wallowing for no reason. Did you switch away from DirecTV due to horrible service, or because you've moved to a location where there's no line of sight? If so, contact [email protected]. She's the Sr. VP of Customer Care at Directv.

See, I helped you and I didn't even have to call you names.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

taos_jake said:


> No doubt a familiar story, but still an aggravating one. Having been foolish enough to buy year-long service contracts for five years, I naively assumed that in the middle of a contract I could cancel and be refunded the remainder, if only on a monthly pro-rated basis. After all, I'm being transferred abroad, not jumping ship to a rival.
> 
> But no, the fine print says no refunds, so no refunds. Tivo saves $60 and loses a potentially life-long customer. Reminds me of my credit card company.
> 
> Business fail.





BobCamp1 said:


> See, I helped you and I didn't even have to call you names.


The OP was not looking for help as he had already asked TiVo. he simply wanted to rant about the lack of refund as if TiVo was bad for sticking to its policy.

he included phrases like "naively assumed" and "fine print" on no refund and "business fail".

why are folks insisting on rewriting that as a post asking for or needing helpful advice? It was a one and done rant so the OP would feel better. pure and simple.


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

vurbano said:


> Compainies should not be responsible for consumers employment choices.


They're not responsible. When I moved to another location with the same company, the relocation policy included a cash payment for incidental expenses. It made it easier to move without incurring hardship, which was the goal.


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## HellFish (Jan 28, 2007)

^^^ I think vurbano & lafo are talking about different things.

vurbano is referring to companies in a consumer/provider relationship.

lafo is referring to companies in a employee/employer relationship.



HiDefGator said:


> Are you paying for monthly service that you don't want or need to keep from paying $20 a month early exit fee? That doesn't seem reasonable. Wouldn't the $20 be less costly?


I lowered my plan down to the family plan, which is $30 a month. Per the contract, which I read, I need to have at least a $30 plan. I also have a few $20 coupons that I am going through, so I am effectively paying $10 + tax a month right now. When I run out of coupons, I will cancel my service.


BobCamp1 said:


> I did complain at first when the dealer wouldn't cover any of it.
> 
> I just hope you're not wallowing for no reason.
> 
> See, I helped you and I didn't even have to call you names.


Did you complain or complain and ask for options?

I do thank you for trying to help, but I switched because I missed Tivo. I had a DTivo for 5+ years, bought and HDTV in 2009 and switched to the DTV DVR. I liked Tivo better, was offered a good deal for a Premiere through my employer, and switched to that.


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## budf15 (Jul 28, 2005)

Wow, I guess I'm in the extreme minority here but I totally agree with the OP. Yes, he's asking Tivo to let him out of his contract. Yes, Tivo has every right not to do so. But to me it just makes no sense at all not to give him the partial refund. I doubt he's moving overseas FOREVER. If they'd parted with the $60, he'd probably be more likely to return as a customer when he got back in a couple years. As a guy in the military, it's not uncommon to get sent overseas for a couple years. As a Tivo guy who's been sent overseas before, I stopped my Tivo service when I left and then restarted it when I got back (along with my portion of Tivo's revenue stream). Had they told me to pound sand because they were insistant on upholding their contract, I doubt I would have had the inclination to go back to them when I got back.

There's no argument that they had the right to do what they did, I just think it's bad business in the long run. $60 saved now by Tivo, returning customer lost who would potentially have paid 10x that for years later after he got back. Dumb.


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

Just happened to find this thread from 4.5 years ago when I paid, YIKES, $400 for a Treo 700p. After telling me it was $400 and charging my credit card, they billed another $40 on the next bill for sales tax. The TreoCentral community suggest that I was stupid, and deal with it. Called Sprint, short conversation, $40 refund. Long story short, I'm still a Sprint customer today. A few bucks can make a big difference to a customer that feels wronged (even if he wasn't).

http://discussion.treocentral.com/cdma-north-america/116724-sneaky-sprint-charges-sales-tax.html


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

budf15 said:


> Wow, I guess I'm in the extreme minority here but I totally agree with the OP. Yes, he's asking Tivo to let him out of his contract. Yes, Tivo has every right not to do so. But to me it just makes no sense at all not to give him the partial refund. I doubt he's moving overseas FOREVER. If they'd parted with the $60, he'd probably be more likely to return as a customer when he got back in a couple years. As a guy in the military, it's not uncommon to get sent overseas for a couple years. As a Tivo guy who's been sent overseas before, I stopped my Tivo service when I left and then restarted it when I got back (along with my portion of Tivo's revenue stream). Had they told me to pound sand because they were insistant on upholding their contract, I doubt I would have had the inclination to go back to them when I got back.
> 
> There's no argument that they had the right to do what they did, I just think it's bad business in the long run. $60 saved now by Tivo, returning customer lost who would potentially have paid 10x that for years later after he got back. Dumb.


What you say is most likely true, but so what, as that's your opinion (and not a bad one at that) but TiVo apparently does not share that opinion and does not have to. This form is full of people's dreams for TiVo and how they should run the Co. but somebody is paid to run TiVo, they may be doing things others would not do, every business has trade offs they have to make, no independent DVR co is making it big in the market today, so it can't be that easy to run a profitable independent DVR co.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

budf15 said:


> If they'd parted with the $60, he'd probably be more likely to return as a customer when he got back in a couple years.


 he is actually just as likely to go with a competitor or use TiVo again depending on the price. Giving him the 60$ credit really would have little influence on his 'loyalty' a few years later. No one can say with any certainty that the credit would do TiVo any long term good.



> As a guy in the military, it's not uncommon to get sent overseas for a couple years. As a Tivo guy who's been sent overseas before, I stopped my Tivo service when I left and then restarted it when I got back (along with my portion of Tivo's revenue stream).


 this is different from the curent prepaid plan being discussed. When TiVo was either month to month or lifetime - they did have this pause option for anyone - since they could just cancel service otherwise. That policy clearly kept people around but cost TiVo money and made accounting for subs a lot harder. TiVo ended this practice in favor of the yearly commitment and the fact you could not cancel on a prorated basis is pretty clearly indicated. Add in it was a prepay at a lower overall cost and this fits squarely in the type of credits TiVo changed its policies to no longer have to deal with them


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

Resist said:


> The OP doesn't have an issue, he broke a contract early and has to pay a fee (per the contract) and was leaving Tivo anyway. He's just trying to make an issue, where none exists.


That is the precise description of what happened.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Chris Gerhard said:


> That is the precise description of what happened.


I would not even say "make an issue" the OP tossed off a rant to ding TiVo some since he was unhappy with TiVo and then moved on. A one and done drive by. Any helpful advice would be of benefit only to other readers of the thread


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

jakerome said:


> So yeah, mock the OP all you want and point out that he should've been more informed. So what if you're right? Doesn't change the fact that this is simply another example of TiVo shooting itself in the foot.


Pennywise and pound foolish indeed.

Oh well jakerome - don't expect any sympathy in this forum!


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> I understand that part, but what does it have to do with TiVo losing a customer? They were losing him anyway, he was canceling. Why would waiving the $60 save him as a customer when he can't use tivo?


I dunno, but most people that temporarily leave the country plan to come back.

As others pointed out, companies with good customer service understand that rules are sometimes made to be broken. A good example of this is Apple - I have never been hassled or nickeled and dimed about anything as trivial as a $60 charge.

It's part of the reason Apple has customer satisfaction survey results second to none in the electronics industry. It's not the sole reason mind you, but it's a significant contributor.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

keirgrey said:


> Soo...TiVo is driving you out of the country?


Wow, I'm constantly amazed that customer service is so hard for companies in general - not just Tivo, mind you.

After reading posts like this in this forum, I guess I shouldn't be so surprised real customer service is such a mystery


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DocNo said:


> A good example of this is Apple - I have never been hassled or nickeled and dimed about anything as trivial as a $60 charge.


apple has a very different profit model and also makes huge profits. Bear in mind that this would have been a cancelled sub 6 months earlier than if it runs out. To TiVo right now that is huge.

Try this - buy 60$ worth of iTunes cards, then call Apple and say you are going to a place without electicity and want a refund on the cards.


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> apple has a very different profit model and also makes huge profits. Bear in mind that this would have been a cancelled sub 6 months earlier than if it runs out. To TiVo right now that is huge.
> 
> Try this - buy 60$ worth of iTunes cards, then call Apple and say you are going to a place without electicity and want a refund on the cards.


No need, I'd just give them to a friend or sell them on eBay. Or spend them when I return in a couple years.


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## HellFish (Jan 28, 2007)

DocNo said:


> As others pointed out, companies with good customer service understand that rules are sometimes made to be broken. A good example of this is Apple - I have never been hassled or nickeled and dimed about anything as trivial as a $60 charge.


Really? Apple? The only company I can think of that still has a proprietary USB cable for their phone/mp3/tablet*? I can get a 15ft micro-usb cable for $2. Can you show me where I can get a 15ft ipod cable for $2? I'm serious. I have 2 ipods, and would appreciate having 15ft cables.

Apple makes huge profits on everything they sell. So I suppose you're right, they aren't nickel & diming anyone, they're beyond that. They're Grant & Benjamining.



jakerome said:


> No need, I'd just give them to a friend or sell them on eBay. Or spend them when I return in a couple years.


I can't tell if you're joking or not, so I'll assume you are. 

And who says we aren't helpful here if the OP isn't rude: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=463256

*I'm sure someone will prove me wrong that apple isn't the only company still doing this


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## bsmith1051 (Nov 15, 2009)

Doesn't Tivo allow you to suspend your account? Assuming the OP was eventually planning to return that would have been a good solution, no?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bsmith1051 said:


> Doesn't Tivo allow you to suspend your account? Assuming the OP was eventually planning to return that would have been a good solution, no?


That's what I asked back in post #63 -- answered in post #65. Welcome to the thread.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jakerome said:


> No need, I'd just give them to a friend or sell them on eBay. Or spend them when I return in a couple years.


its an example - though the OP could have done either of the first 2


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

jakerome said:


> ZeoTiVo said:
> 
> 
> > Try this - buy 60$ worth of iTunes cards, then call Apple and say you are going to a place without electicity and want a refund on the cards.
> ...


I think what jakerome is saying without saying it is that No, he does NOT expect a refund from Apple.


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

I'm saying it's irrelevant if Apple offers e a refund, because that $60 iTunes card is not tied only to me for a certain time frame. 

In short, you offered a really poor analogy, I demolished it, and now you're resorting to semantic tricks to avoid admitting the stupidity of the comparison. If only there were a directly comparable service Apple offered, you wouldn't have needed to resort to such a tortured comparison.

I mean it's not as if Apple offers a service called, let's say, MobileME that costs about $100/year, is prepaid and is died directly to your Apple identity. Now THAT would have been a perfect comparison. If only such a service existed.


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

Dang. Turns out Apple WILL refund the unused portion of a MobileMe purchase.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4445


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