# Dish has DNS trouble+Tivo suit



## moonman (Jul 21, 2004)

Dish may have it's DNS service cut and lose it's Tivo DVR's(including H/D models)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=680963
The NAB said the decision could prevent EchoStar's DISH Network from delivering distant network TV signals to its satellite subscribers. 
TiVo's requested injunction would apply to Dish Network's two DVRs currently offered for sale, the DP-625 DVR and high-definition ViP622 DVR, the filing said.

TiVo also wants the judge to order EchoStar to disable the DVR function on all of the models in customer homes via a satellite software update.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Well, sure they do. I want everyone here to give me all their money, too, but I'm not expecting either thing to happen. They did win the suit, so I guess you can't expect them to resist the temptation to twist the knife, but I would hardly expect that scenario to come to pass. Maybe a royalty arrangement.

As for DNS, I think the handwriting has been on the wall ever since the pre-HD Florida decision a few years ago. DNS is definitely going away at some point, for both DBS vendors.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

> Meanwhile, news reports said TiVo asked a U.S. District judge to shut down the DVR service offered by EchoStar.


:down:

While I doubt this will happen, it really peeves me that Tivo has stooped so low. I guess they figured since they couldn't keep up with the times (i.e. their SW has been stagnant for years) they will just try to extort money from whoever they can.


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## MNTivoGuy (Oct 21, 2002)

Mark Lopez said:


> :down:
> 
> While I doubt this will happen, it really peeves me that Tivo has stooped so low. I guess they figured since they couldn't keep up with the times (i.e. their SW has been stagnant for years) they will just try to extort money from whoever they can.


Why would you say that it is TiVo that has stooped so low? Didn't the jury find that EchoStar infringed (i.e. stole) TiVo's intellectual property? And another Court held that EchoStar repeatedly violated FCC rules about transmission of distant networks?


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## garydw (Oct 24, 2004)

TIVO has no chance of survival unless they can find ways to make TIVO the only dvr a person can have.

Well becaue TIVO has taken this low road, I as a customer, have cancelled my TIVO service on all my boxes (had 4), and my family has done the same thing.

We all now use Windows Media Center, or a DVR from our Cable Company (non tivo) and love what we have, and no monthly fee to anyone.

TIVO will never have my business again, and I don't think they really want to try to take on Microsoft.

Gary


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## TivoGeezer (Dec 3, 2003)

garydw said:


> TIVO has no chance of survival unless they can find ways to make TIVO the only dvr a person can have.
> 
> Well becaue TIVO has taken this low road, I as a customer, have cancelled my TIVO service on all my boxes (had 4), and my family has done the same thing.
> 
> ...


Good riddance. If you can't support a company who had their property stolen and used against them then, don't go away mad, just go away.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

garydw said:


> TIVO has no chance of survival unless they can find ways to make TIVO the only dvr a person can have.
> 
> Well becaue TIVO has taken this low road, I as a customer, have cancelled my TIVO service on all my boxes (had 4), and my family has done the same thing.
> 
> ...


If Microsoft crossed over and was using some of their patented technology, you bet your sweet potatos they will go after Microsoft.

Why? Microsoft is the biggest TARGET in the technology world right now.
Anyone that can, and has a claim will.

Heck, look at these couple "mom and pops" who have patents... and they have WON (hence the recent patches that basically fubared ActiveX controls)

TiVo is doing nothing out of the ordinary.
Xerox, Poloroid, and so on..... They are protecting what they rightfully and legally have an avenue to protect. (regardless if you agree or not)


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

garydw said:


> TIVO has no chance of survival unless they can find ways to make TIVO the only dvr a person can have.
> 
> Well becaue TIVO has taken this low road, I as a customer, have cancelled my TIVO service on all my boxes (had 4), and my family has done the same thing.
> 
> ...


Windows Media Center, LMAO! And what planet do you live on where your cable DVR has no monthly fees?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

I understand his concern. Do you really want to live in a world where Tivo is the only DVR you can buy? I know I don't. But I don't think that will happen. And I don't blame Tivo for fighting for its IP rights. 

There are ways around every patent. I'm sure lots of talented people are examining the patents and working on ways around them as I type.

Too many people currently believe that Tivo's goal is to eliminate all the competition. That is not their goal. Monopolies are submit to government oversite. Even DVR monopolies.


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## STL (Feb 10, 2005)

garydw said:


> Well becaue TIVO has taken this low road, I as a customer, have cancelled my TIVO service on all my boxes (had 4), and my family has done the same thing.
> 
> We all now use Windows Media Center, or a DVR from our Cable Company (non tivo) and love what we have, and no monthly fee to anyone.
> 
> TIVO will never have my business again, and I don't think they really want to try to take on Microsoft.


Truth be told, you probably never owned a TiVo in the first place -- rather you're probably a DISH subscriber who's worried his DVR (containing stolen technology) might get turned off. LOL


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## moonman (Jul 21, 2004)

More Companies jumping in........
Four Hollywood studios and the three major television networks have filed a copyright suit seeking to prevent Cablevision Systems from launching an "on-demand" service that aims to replace the living room digital video recorder.

http://news.com.com/Cablevision+sued+over+on-demand+plans/2100-1041_3-6076828.html?tag=html.aler


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> If Microsoft crossed over and was using some of their patented technology, you bet your sweet potatos they will go after Microsoft.


I was under the impression that Microsoft *did* in fact design the first Echostar DVR, the Dishplayer. So how come they targeted Echostar? Easier target would be my guess, plus encouragement from DirecTV.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

bidger said:


> I was under the impression that Microsoft *did* in fact design the first Echostar DVR, the Dishplayer. So how come they targeted Echostar? Easier target would be my guess, plus encouragement from DirecTV.


I think you are correct there.

But I am not sure if it is the same line of DVRs that TiVo is attacking.


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## jmrife (Jan 12, 2004)

bidger said:


> I was under the impression that Microsoft *did* in fact design the first Echostar DVR, the Dishplayer. So how come they targeted Echostar? Easier target would be my guess, plus encouragement from DirecTV.


I am pretty sure it is not the actual design, but the functionality that is in question. TiVo is still partnering with Direct, so there is no upside to a suit there. I don't see E* dvrs going dark, instead, I predect a small fee for each to be paid to TiVo. Their patent has been upheld now by the court and the patent office, giving them solid legal grounds. E* has a rep for lots of litigation, losing much of the time but dragging it out forever before paying up.


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## moonman (Jul 21, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> I
> But I am not sure if it is the same line of DVRs that TiVo is attacking.


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TiVo's requested injunction would apply to Dish Network's two DVRs currently offered for sale, the DP-625 DVR and high-definition ViP622 DVR, the filing said.

TiVo also wants the judge to order EchoStar to disable the DVR function on all of the models in customer homes via a satellite software update.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Got to love the 'Tivo Army'.


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## STL (Feb 10, 2005)

moonman said:


> TiVo also wants the judge to order EchoStar to disable the DVR function on all of the models in customer homes via a satellite software update.


That might be what TiVo asked for, but that's not what they really want. They ultimately just want Echostar to start paying royalities on the intellectual property they stole from TiVo (and continue to use).


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> I understand his concern. Do you really want to live in a world where Tivo is the only DVR you can buy? I know I don't. But I don't think that will happen. And I don't blame Tivo for fighting for its IP rights....Too many people currently believe that Tivo's goal is to eliminate all the competition. That is not their goal. Monopolies are submit to government oversite. Even DVR monopolies.


Good points. In my view, the only thing worse than a world with only one PVR would be a world where that one PVR is not a Tivo.


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## garydw (Oct 24, 2004)

STL said:


> Truth be told, you probably never owned a TiVo in the first place -- rather you're probably a DISH subscriber who's worried his DVR (containing stolen technology) might get turned off. LOL


Actually I personal had 3 Tivo Units

1 40 Hour, and 2 Humax 80 hour.

Today they are just there taking up space.

And FYI, you should never make judgments, I have Comcast Basic Digital service.

garydw


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## garydw (Oct 24, 2004)

rifleman69 said:


> Windows Media Center, LMAO! And what planet do you live on where your cable DVR has no monthly fees?


It is true, I pay no fee for my Cable Box DVR. How is this you ask, because that is the offer that I recevied when I signed up.

As for Media Center, it works great, does exactly what I want, no crazy TIVO suggestions, dual tunners, can schedule via the web, and lots more.

Very happy with it.

garydw


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

garydw said:


> It i, no crazy TIVO suggestions, dual tunners, can schedule via the web, and lots more.
> 
> garydw


 You can turn off the Tivo suggestions and then this seems to be the exact same as tivo.


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

garydw said:


> Actually I personal had 3 Tivo Units
> 
> 1 40 Hour, and 2 Humax 80 hour.
> 
> ...


I am courious as to how long you had tivo that you cold just dump it as so matter of fact I tried to use the SA 8300HD and after 2 day was glad i never disconected my 2 stand alones


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

aztivo said:


> I am courious as to how long you had tivo that you cold just dump it as so matter of fact ....


Perhaps because not everyone blindly worships Tivo like some here do. I have had a Tivo (and nearly every flavor) since they first came out. But in those nearly 6 years, the software has stagnated and does little more than it did in the beginning. Imagine the uproar if MS was still only selling Win98 with only adding a few minor improvements every few years. I like my Tivo as much as the next person, but the first DVR that does what I need and doesn't run slow as molasses, stutter, have annoying audio issues etc. and I'll be dumping mine too. In other words, it won't take much.


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## garydw (Oct 24, 2004)

aztivo said:


> I am courious as to how long you had tivo that you cold just dump it as so matter of fact I tried to use the SA 8300HD and after 2 day was glad i never disconected my 2 stand alones


It was actually very easy. I am loyal to a service provider as long as they are providing the service, and taking steps to improve the service. But in the case of TIVO they lost sight of that. Adding features to the software without user input. Example: The Yahoo items added to the interface, I did not want them, but could not remove them.

Tivo futher pushed me away with the very crapy way that the sytem works when attempting to watch a program from one DVR on another. My media center does not have to transfer the file, and record on the second box, it streams the program over my network, from the moment I hit PLAY.

Media Center has extremly easy access to my digital photos ( over 7,000 pics) and can display them on any of my TV's, backed up by music from my extensive 25,000 file mp3 library. Access to web content, such as TV, Movies, Radio, and even incorporates FM radio and XM sat Radio, THe ablity to control a DVD jukebox, store DVD's on a hard drive, and yes it can even do HD. All of this and NO monthly fee.

Tivo also as made the mistake of attempting to force it's product, and it's software on everyone, and frankly not everyone wants it. Tivo was not the first to create a means by which tv could be stored, played, or manipulated, tivo is simply attempting to use the courts to earn money.

So TIVO, you did not win me over as loyal fan in the two years I was paying for the service (14.95 month + 6.95 + 6.95) for what to mean was access to a program guide. Today I save that money and use my media center that I built from spare parts. My total cost for my media center 300.00, but NO monthly fee.

Monthly fee or no monthly fee, no fee sound better to me

gary


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

I know... let's all get together and burn all the non-Tivo infidels at the stake. How dare anyone question our God!

More seriously, wasn't there some news recently about a number of the Tivo patents being invalidated? I know Dish was claiming they were invalid, but hasn't there been an actual ruling?

As for Dish 'stealing' Tivo's incredible invention, if you look at the primary patents, what they claim to have invented is about as obvious as it comes, and there were several prior-art PC-based technologies that did pretty much what Tivo claims to have patented. One of the main points was a 'media separator' that split the audio and video signals and separately digitized them. (not for DTV, this was for composite input) Really now, this is a revolutionary concept?

I'm all for companies protecting their legitimate inventions, but this smacks of desperation on Tivo's part, a lot like the lawsuits SCO threatened against anyone using Linux. I expect this to end up about the same... a lot of smoke and panic-mongering, and that's it.

On the other hand, what do you think is going to happen to Tivo if they lose on appeal? (not that small a probability)

Postscript - I just found the patent info, and the ruling. The patent office has apparently ruled that some number (not clear from the article) of Tivo's patents are invalid. Furthermore, an appeals court has ruled that the original court allowed witholding of some 'critical' evidence.

The claims in the patent are pretty broad. It basically says Tivo invented the idea of a recorder that converts composite video to MPEG2 and separately-digitized audio, stores it on a disk, and then allows reassembly and reconversion back to composite. Wow! Who ever would have thought of that!


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Apparently, Tivo.

Odd thing is that the HR10, which is what this forum is about, works in a completely different way.


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## nsdp (Jun 4, 2002)

The Supreme Court in an unrelated case has just thrown a major wrench in Tivo's case and the Blackberry case as well. . Injunctions are no longer available unless you are a DIRECT competitor. Since Tivo claims to have nothing to do with directivo they are not entitled to an injunction. They are entitled to monetary damages figured on the basis of the value of a patent license(what license fees they collect from Directv), hoisted on their own petard.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> Apparently, Tivo.
> 
> Odd thing is that the HR10, which is what this forum is about, works in a completely different way.


I know. I'd actually expect Dish's offerings to work that way, too. I'd guess the only real claim that Tivo is making involves the OTA recording, especially since they put a lot of emphasis on the 'media separator' aspect of their patents. Given the move by both DTV and Dish to provide all the locals via satellite, maybe they'll both just drop OTA capability eventually.


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

Mark Lopez said:


> :down:
> 
> While I doubt this will happen, it really peeves me that Tivo has stooped so low. I guess they figured since they couldn't keep up with the times (i.e. their SW has been stagnant for years) they will just try to extort money from whoever they can.


So who has better DVR software?

TiVo is trying to stay in business. They have shareholders who would like a return on their investment? Are they "stooping so low" too?

Tivo is a publicly held company, Mark. As such, the management has not just a right, but a duty to protect the financial assets of its shareholders. There is nothing "low" about taking that responsibility seriously. TiVo management is doing the right thing in taking Dish to court. Seems like the courts are holding in TiVo's favor.

Tivo must have the judge in their pocket, right?


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

ShiningBengal said:


> So who has better DVR software?
> 
> TiVo is trying to stay in business.


The first is debatable. As I mentioned, it would not take much to make me dump my Tivos.

Perhaps if Tivo had not burned that $50M they got in the early days on those stupid commercials that no one understood and had hired a couple of really good programmers instead, they would not be worried about staying in business today.



ShiningBengal said:


> Seems like the courts are holding in TiVo's favor.
> 
> Tivo must have the judge in their pocket, right?


My point was that when MS tries to protect their rights using the courts, everyone bashes them calling them greedy, trying to force out the competition, etc. But when Tivo does the exact same thing, those same people think it's perfectly ok.


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## herdfan (Feb 5, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> Do you really want to live in a world where Tivo is the only DVR you can buy?


As long as TiVo has a valid patent(s), then yes. Companies spend Billions of dollars trying to invent new things to make our lives better and the protection they get from patents provides a return. If there were no patents, then we would probably not have half the cool things we have today.

So maybe you don't like TiVo as a company. (I personally think their marketing department is run by chimps.) But you need to repect the fact that they designed a DVR and were issued patents for it and have every right to enforce those patents until a court rules otherwise.


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## herdfan (Feb 5, 2003)

nsdp said:


> Injunctions are no longer available unless you are a DIRECT competitor. Since Tivo claims to have nothing to do with directivo they are not entitled to an injunction.


1) TiVo would be considered a direct competitor to an E* DVR. If the customer is using a E* DVR, then they are not using a TiVo.

2) What the [email protected]## does DirecTiVo have to do with anything?


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## PoochPadder (May 29, 2006)

Does anyone know of a TIVO machine that also records DVDs which can be used with Direct TV service? I looked at the HUMAX DRT 400, but keep getting different answers from Direct TV reps as to compatibility. Even if it doesn't have DVD burning, can anyone receommend a recent TIVO model that works with Direct TV? 

I can't seem to find anything out from Direct TV's website, as they have become so "anti-TIVO" and keep trying to steer customers away from TIVO and to their R15s (with their own interface).


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## TPA (Oct 12, 2005)

nsdp said:


> The Supreme Court in an unrelated case has just thrown a major wrench in Tivo's case and the Blackberry case as well. . Injunctions are no longer available unless you are a DIRECT competitor. Since Tivo claims to have nothing to do with directivo they are not entitled to an injunction. They are entitled to monetary damages figured on the basis of the value of a patent license(what license fees they collect from Directv), hoisted on their own petard.


The Supremes did not say that. They relied on a traditional multi-factor test in a determination of whether to issue a permanent injunction. It was not a factor whether or not they are a direct competitor.

However, based on the opinion, the Court is seemingly making it harder for patent trolls (thoses getting patents and not producing a product) to satisfy this test and receive a permanent injunction (for example, the holding companies going after RIM for the blackberry, eBay, etc.). Tivo is not in this category.


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## Dssturbo1 (Feb 23, 2005)

PoochPadder said:


> Does anyone know of a TIVO machine that also records DVDs which can be used with Direct TV service? I looked at the HUMAX DRT 400, but keep getting different answers from Direct TV reps as to compatibility. Even if it doesn't have DVD burning, can anyone receommend a recent TIVO model that works with Direct TV?
> 
> I can't seem to find anything out from Direct TV's website, as they have become so "anti-TIVO" and keep trying to steer customers away from TIVO and to their R15s (with their own interface).


there is a scetion here with DVD with Tivo units. i think toshiba and pioneer also made dvd recorders with directv and tivo


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

Interesting that you state my first point was "debatable" yet you don't debate it other than stating "it wouldn't take much to make me dump my TiVo's." The fact is, if you want to use a DVR with DirecTV, you don't have much of a choice, do you? The current non-TiVo offering by DirectTV is a joke. TiVo, though far from perfect, is still the standard by which every other DVR on the market is judged. Which DVR is better? And don't give me a laundry list of things you like about other DVR's and don't like about TiVo. You still own TiVo's, don't you?

"Everyone" bashes Microsoft? When did I get excluded from "everyone?" Please find a post of mine taking such a position! 

You are taking a very strange position here, Mark. You seem to be defending Microsoft, and in the same sentence, condemning TiVo for doing "the same thing" as Microsoft has (If TiVo is doing the same thing as Microsoft, then Microsoft is doing the same thing as TiVo!). 

Microsoft has investors just like TiVo, and its shareholders, just like TiVo's, have the right to expect MS's management to protect the assets that they (the shareholders) collectively own. It is a publicly owned company, as you know.


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