# Discount due to Fios MPEG4 (rant)



## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Alright, so I am a bit frustrated at Tivo here. Let me know if you think I am out of place in my thinking.

First off, I have a TivoHD and I now can't get some channels on Fios due to the MPEG4 changes. The first part of my frustration with Tivo comes with the fact that the TivoHD supports MPEG4 (as shown by the Australian Tivo and Netflix), so this is pure "planned obsolescence." It had been known for years that the cable companies were going to move to MPEG4.

That said, I called up Tivo a week ago and they offer me a deal that was apparently offered a while back. $50 off a Premiere 4 and $200 off lifetime service for it ($498 total). This is of course not a deal, since MSD wise I already get $100 off and the box is easily found at >$80 off. More specifically, an example would be Tivo selling them through Woot for $149 with an included Stream. With MSD that would be $548 total with the included stream. So really, Tivo wasn't offering me anything special (and in some ways a worse deal). The deal offer gets more offensive when you think about the fact that the Premiere is now an obsolete product to Tivo. They are trying to get me to spend $500 on an outdated product, that I have no idea if the core functionality will be broken tomorrow on.

Now, I fully believe that they should offer me something special. They chose to make the box obsolete ahead of its "lifetime." Really, I think I should get a free lifetime on the replacement box as a consolation for the fact that they "broke" it intentionally. (Maybe a bit harsh in words, but they could have easily provided the functionality.)

So I call them back today. I explain how I feel that they have wronged me by knowingly not implementing something they new would be used in the near future. Then I said that I don't want an already out of date box (Premiere). Could they just provide the $200 discount on a box that I am less likely to fall prey to the same issues in the next couple of years (Roamio)? After waiting for 15 or so minutes on the phone for the rep to talk to a supervisor. The answer is NO (no offer of any kind). Basically, Tivo's failure is my loss. I guess I didn't expect much, but this new Tivo would be my 5th. I didn't think I was asking for too much.

Sad thing is I am perfectly happy with my TivoHD, I don't need to upgrade. However, if I am forced to upgrade, I am not going to spend my money on something that is already out of date.

Done. Alright, frustration vented.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The TiVo HD was replaced by the Premiere in March of 2010. No cable company in the US was broadcasting H.264 until late 2011, long after TiVo had stopped developing for the S3 platform. It wasn't "planned obsolescence" it was a simple fact that there was no way to test H.264 support in the US until long after the platform was obsolete. Do you expect them to support the platform forever?

You can probably sell your HD for about $250. You should do that and pick up a new Roamio to replace it. You can get a 4 tuner Roamio with lifetime for $600. I absolutely would not recommend getting the Premiere. The Roamio is well worth the extra $100.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

Dan you are wrong

If the TivoHD was discontinued 3/2010, Tivo is obligated to update and support it for 3 years. Well into H.264/mpeg4 distribution dates.

On top of that, the item is not considered obsolete as long as they take subscription money for services, which they still do or sell extended warranties, which they did through 3/2010. 

The point you make is further weakened by the fact that they just did a software upgrade (11.0m), to fix certificate problems, so the notion that they cannot upgrade these boxes falls apart.

On top of this, it has been stated that the TivoHD is capable of Mpeg4/H.264 use with only a minor software change now!


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

philhu said:


> If the TivoHD was discontinued 3/2010, Tivo is obligated to update and support it for 3 years. Well into H.264/mpeg4 distribution dates.


The 3-year period you mentioned expired in 3/2013 so it sounds to me like they met the criteria.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

socrplyr said:


> Now, I fully believe that they should offer me something special.


Ah, the age of entitlement!

FIOS changed their system and you want Tivo to give you free/discounted stuff. Makes sense.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> The TiVo HD was replaced by the Premiere in March of 2010. No cable company in the US was broadcasting H.264 until late 2011, long after TiVo had stopped developing for the S3 platform. It wasn't "planned obsolescence" it was a simple fact that there was no way to test H.264 support in the US until long after the platform was obsolete. Do you expect them to support the platform forever?


Yes, you are correct. But also look at when those cable companies started replacing their boxes with ones that could handle MPEG4. MPEG4 didn't come out of the blue in 2011. It was a known expectation for years. Tivo made a conscious decision not implement it. Thus, planned obsolescence.

I do not expect them to support it forever. I do expect them to have at least extended support for say 5 years after I purchase. I do not expect them to add new features, but I expect them to keep core features working. In this particular case, they could have easily implemented H.264. In the extended support time, they make minor tweaks to it for any minor variations that occurred. As a point of reference, the last (semi-)regular update was 11.0k (I think March 2011).

Maybe I expect too much. However, I view the fact that Tivo tried to offer a deal in the first place as an admission of some sense of culpability.

Maybe I should or shouldn't get some special deal. I don't know. I am frustrated by the situation, so I ranted. I will get over it (someday anyways).



Dan203 said:


> You can probably sell your HD for about $250. You should do that and pick up a new Roamio to replace it. You can get a 4 tuner Roamio with lifetime for $600. I absolutely would not recommend getting the Premiere. The Roamio is well worth the extra $100.


I agree. For my Tivo HD, I think $250 might be pushing it. (No wireless or add ons etc. and I never upgraded the drive.) I will definitely recoup a decent amount that way. However, I was looking at it from the perspective that if it supported H.264, I would be spending $0 right now. I am not even considering the Premiere at this point (even at the elevated costs of the Roamio).

One thing that I just remembered that is interesting. Tivo made a conscious decision to do service as an add-on fee. In their pricing, it is always listed out the same. But when they run deals or give special offers, they differentiate based on the hardware. (Examples: In this case the $200 discount applies only to the Premiere. In many cases the $99 deals on older units do this as well.) Just interesting.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

My opinion is TiVo should either fix the issue or offer people negatively affected a real discount on a Roamio with lifetime (like $500 total).


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Ah, the age of entitlement!
> 
> FIOS changed their system and you want Tivo to give you free/discounted stuff. Makes sense.


Call it what you will. I feel like they didn't properly support their product. I call them on it and they don't offer anything meaningful. Part of me thinks they should give me a whole lifetime for free. I asked for a pittance compared to the money I have spent with them over the years. It isn't unreasonable. You ignore the fact that Tivo knew cable operators were going to do this well in advance. If it makes you feel any better, I had Cox before. They have had H.264 channels for longer. I ignored the issue at that time, because they were being broadcast a a frequency higher than the Tivo could physically tune.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> My opinion is TiVo should either fix the issue or offer people negatively affected a real discount on a Roamio with lifetime (like $500 total).


I would be happy if they fixed it. That is actually my preferred option.

Your suggestion of $500 total, is in effect, exactly what I asked for.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

Mr. Unnatural......They did NOt do their obligation. Mpeg4 came out well within the 3yr obligation for support. and Tivo chose not to update their systems, even though the HARDWARE could support h.264 (and does for netflix, etc). That forced obsolescence of the product.

Back in 2010, everyone knew cable companies were going to H.265 to save space on the cable. It wasn't 'out of the blue'


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

You were offered something special, just not special enough by your own measurement. it stinks when technology passes you by, but it happens to nearly everything at some point.

When was the move to H.264 officially the new standard for all cablecos? Was it even certain that it would be used, or widely adopted over other standards? What actual proof did tivo have when the box was still being actively updated that this was a "known expectation" and would take place?

I'm also wondering where the three year obligation is? I would assume that support and updates may be more narrowly defined than some would hope.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

jrtroo said:


> You were offered something special, just not special enough by your own measurement. it stinks when technology passes you by, but it happens to nearly everything at some point.
> 
> When was the move to H.264 officially the new standard for all cablecos? Was it even certain that it would be used, or widely adopted over other standards? What actual proof did tivo have when the box was still being actively updated that this was a "known expectation" and would take place?
> 
> I'm also wondering where the three year obligation is? I would assume that support and updates may be more narrowly defined than some would hope.


The Mpeg4/h.264 was being implemented in test in 2010 and even earlier on Satellite boxes.

The 3 year implied compatability of a software/hardware project is a well know amount of time in the industry. It is the default used for products that can be updated.

If the tivoHD could not do mpeg4/h.264 due to hardware constraints, then it doesn't apply. But the box CAN do it, CAN be updated to do it using software


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

philhu said:


> Dan you are wrong
> 
> If the TivoHD was discontinued 3/2010, Tivo is obligated to update and support it for 3 years. Well into H.264/mpeg4 distribution dates.


Where are you pulling that number from? Who says they are obligated to update it for 3 years? That's ridiculous! They're not obligated to update it at all, let alone for 3 years after the product was discontinued. That being said the S3 platform was released in 2006, and the final software release was in early 2011, so they updated the platform for almost 5 years.



philhu said:


> The point you make is further weakened by the fact that they just did a software upgrade (11.0m), to fix certificate problems, so the notion that they cannot upgrade these boxes falls apart.


The 11.0m software does NOTHING but update the certificate. They did not have to beta test that or dedicate any significant amount of engineering to it. Updating the S3 platform to support H.264 would require a full beta cycle and a significant portion of their engineering staff to accomplish. That is an apples and oranges comparison.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

philhu said:


> The Mpeg4/h.264 was being implemented in test in 2010 and even earlier on Satellite boxes.


TiVo is not in the industry. They don't have access to early testing like that. They do beta tests by recruiting employees and volunteers to try out software at home. So there is no way they could have tested H.264 until it was released in the wild, which didn't happen until late 2011. And even then I think it was a half dozen channels on one provider. Even now, in late 2013, there are only 2-3 providers using H.264 and only on a few channels. FIOS just happens to be the biggest adopter.



philhu said:


> The 3 year implied compatability of a software/hardware project is a well know amount of time in the industry. It is the default used for products that can be updated.


Until September of last year Apple was still selling the iPhone 3Gs as a new product and yet it's not supported by the new iOS7 upgrade.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

jrtroo said:


> You were offered something special, just not special enough by your own measurement. it stinks when technology passes you by, but it happens to nearly everything at some point.


Maybe you are right there.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Until September of last year Apple was still selling the iPhone 3Gs as a new product and yet it's not supported by the new iOS7 upgrade.


Not exactly the same. IOS6 still functions for all core functionality. Phone, internet, etc.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> Where are you pulling that number from? Who says they are obligated to update it for 3 years? That's ridiculous! They're not obligated to update it at all, let alone for 3 years after the product was discontinued. That being said the S3 platform was released in 2006, and the final software release was in early 2011, so they updated the platform for almost 5 years.


Not true. They updated it for 5 years WHILE they still sold it. There is a merchantability and fitness clause in the Consumer Fair Trade act that requires a company that sells a product to support it 'in all ways possible' for 3 years after sales complete.

They could have done a reduced purchase blanket price. They could have upgraded the software to handle it. They could have done a buyback for a newer Tivo, but they just cannot stop supporting a device WHEN THEY STILL TAKE subscriptions on the device. That would be like the cable company changing encryption on their cable and saying you need to buy a new cable box to get the new encryption.



> The 11.0m software does NOTHING but update the certificate. They did not have to beta test that or dedicate any significant amount of engineering to it. Updating the S3 platform to support H.264 would require a full beta cycle and a significant portion of their engineering staff to accomplish. That is an apples and oranges comparison.


No it is not. It shows the upgrade paths available still existed. Nothing about the upgrade itself, just that the path to DO AN UPGRADE did exist.

And yes, a beta cycle would have been needed. It is called 'cost of doing business'

I do agree Tivo was not in the industry and could not get betas to test against, but I do remember that back then, everyone knew it was going that way.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

jrtroo said:


> When was the move to H.264 officially the new standard for all cablecos? Was it even certain that it would be used, or widely adopted over other standards? What actual proof did tivo have when the box was still being actively updated that this was a "known expectation" and would take place?


I did a web search for "H.264 cable box 2009"

One of the first results dated Apr 01 2009:
http://www.multichannel.com/technol...warner-cox-launch-cisco-whole-home-dvr/124780


> Cisco's Explorer 8600s features dual tuners with hard disk drive storage ranging from 160 to 500 Gigabytes. The boxes also support tru2way, 1-GHz tuning, an MPEG-4 (H.264) codec and optional Multimedia over Coax Alliance (MoCA) support.


Sure sounds pretty definite, since Cisco was advertising it.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

philhu said:


> There is a merchantability and fitness clause in the Consumer Fair Trade act that requires a company that sells a product to support it 'in all ways possible' for 3 years after sales complete.


Citation, please. I've never seen any provision stating this.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

socrplyr said:


> Not exactly the same. IOS6 still functions for all core functionality. Phone, internet, etc.


And a TiVo HD still functions for what it was sold for. It was NEVER advertised as supporting H.264/MPEG-4 and as such they have no obligation to support it. The fact that the hardware technically supports it is irrelevant. The only reason the hardware even does is because they wanted to support OOT apps like Netflix, Amazon, etc... They had no intention of supporting H.264 broadcasts back in 2006 because no one was even considering it back then. The fact that they were able to support H.264 broadcasts using the same basic hardware in New Zealand is again irrelevant. The AUS/NZ unit is different, so the software would still need to be tweaked and retested here in the US, and they simply have no incentive to do so.

Honestly I don't understand why someone like yourself, who obviously likes technology, would be OK with using hardware from 2006 anyway. There are so many reasons to upgrade to a Roamio other then just H.264 support. It's well worth it.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

A lot of people bought analog TVs within 3 years of the digital rollout. I promise you, no TV manufacturer gave them their money back or a discount on a new TV. The government offered a discount on a converter box... that's it.

This is how technology works. Some people haven't been touched by this (*waves*) some people have.

Expecting that a 200-300 dollars piece of technology will support all standards forever is naivety at the best and a gross case of the "gimmes" at the worst.

I bought a Sprint cell phone that was supposedly 4G and before 4G came to my town, they canceled the entire WiMax rollout and switched to LTE. The 4G feature of my phone never happened. They had no obligation, moral, ethical or economic, to do anything about that.

Anyone buy a PS3 in the last 3 years? Guess what? PS4 games don't run on it. Is that planned obsolescence? It literally is.

If you don't like these kinds of situations, I suggest you don't ever buy any technology ever.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

From the UCC (Universal Commercial Code act)

It is the merchantability and fitness clauses.

I did mis-speak.

The 3 year parts are part of Massachusetts consumer law

And, no, they were not within their fitness for use. They IMPLIED that they can received 'all' subscribed channels with a cable card. The could not and can never support H.264 channels, even though they did start to appear BEFORE the TivoHD was phased out. I had 2 H.264 channels on comcast in 12/2009. (HBO-HD DISCOVERY SCIENCE-HD). I had a tivoHD at the time and got a cablebox from Comcast for Video on demand and to watch these 2 channels


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

philhu said:


> And, no, they were not within their fitness for use. They IMPLIED that they can received 'all' subscribed channels with a cable card.


There were millions of CableCARD ready TVs sold back then as well, that also did not have the hardware to support H.264. In fact I remember there being a bit of a debate as to whether it would even be legal for cable companies to deploy H.264 channels. But then when Time Warner proved that they could get away with basically anything with the whole SDV rollout that opened the flood gates.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

socrplyr said:


> Sure sounds pretty definite, since Cisco was advertising it.


While interesting that this was offered, this does not show the market accepted it as a standard or that the market was shifting to this as a wide-spread move. That product is a "build it, they will come".


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Cisco also offers a CableCARD that supports 8 tuners. However the current industry standard is still 6 and according to the FCC the providers are only required to support 4 unless they offer a 6 tuner DVR of their own for rent. So just because Cisco makes something doesn't mean it's a standard.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> There were millions of CableCARD ready TVs sold back then as well, that also did not have the hardware to support H.264. In fact I remember there being a bit of a debate as to whether it would even be legal for cable companies to deploy H.264 channels. But then when Time Warner proved that they could get away with basically anything with the whole SDV rollout that opened the flood gates.


I will give you this one. I do remember the H.264 rollout problems with uncompatible cable boxes. No one got in trouble for that one.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

jrtroo said:


> While interesting that this was offered, this does not show the market accepted it as a standard or that the market was shifting to this as a wide-spread move. That product is a "build it, they will come".


Alright, I couldn't find the direct OpenCable thing, but this article about a testing framework from April 2008 is pretty damning.
http://www.sri.com/newsroom/press-releases/sarnoff-releases-new-h264avc-bitstreams-opencable


> Sarnoff Corporation today announced the public launch of the new OpenCable H.264/AVC Suite, a cable version of its video decoder testing suite that provides real-time and automated compliance testing of next-generation H.264/AVC digital video decoders in digital/high definition television (DTV/HDTV) receivers and cable converters.
> Used by CableLabs® to test decoders for Host 2.1 Compliance, the H.264/AVC Suite features accelerated validation and patent-pending visibility enhancements that make errors obvious even with filtering or post-processing. Tests are completed in minutes rather than the hours or days needed by traditional methods. - See more at: http://www.sri.com/newsroom/press-r...avc-bitstreams-opencable#sthash.RaXM7y8e.dpuf


This also refutes those who suggested Tivo didn't have a way to test it ahead of time. It also shows that for Host 2.1 compliance it was needed.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Who's to say they didn't test it and it failed? The S3 platform was developed back in 2005. You're basing your assumption that it could support H.264 via a software update on the fact that the Aus/NZ TiVos support it and are based on the same platform. However the S3 OLED units and the TiVo HD units are based on the same platform and yet the HD units support M cards and the OLED units do not. My point is there could have been a minor hardware tweak in the Aus/NZ units that allows it to do something the S3/HD units can not. We don't really know why TiVo chose not to add support for H.264 to the S3 platform. I'm making just as many assumptions as you are in that regard. I assume it's because the time it was needed the S3 platform had long since been replaced. You assume it's because of "planned obsolescence". We could both be wrong and it could actually be that it's impossible due to hardware constraints.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I have said for a while that I think TiVo should bite the bullet and update the software to support h.264 on the S3 models. 

With that said - expecting some dramatic discount on a Roamio isn't reasonable and seems more then just a little self serving. If they were to do that, then I would be all in with my two S3 units. I might even try to drag the S2 unit out of the closet and upgrade it as well! No, that option would put TiVo out of business in a minute!!!

However, the h.264 does hurt the secondary market on TiVo's and I do think that market brings value to TiVo. It gives hesitant people an opportunity to get hooked on the environment and more likely to upgrade their TiVo's in the future.

It goes to opportunity cost for TiVo, what value does upgrading the S3's bring them? Good will of existing customers? Bah... They don't even count the lifetime S3's as part of the financial install base any longer. A secondary market feeder that can bring future revenues and sales? Maybe...

But just because I can make a case for it, doesn't mean they will move forward with it - and by the middle of next year I will have retired all of my S3 models anyway, so the impact is minimal to me.

So, if that is planned obsolescence - so be it.

btw - I think it was pretty nice of them to offer you the Premier upgrade discout. I wouldn't take it either, but it was at least a resonable gesture.

I am putting my two S3's onto ebay soon, if I can get $250 - I will be pretty happy with the overall investment. (I have fios, and I haven't actually experienced a channel I can't tune yet - don't know why.)


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Who's to say they didn't test it and it failed? The S3 platform was developed back in 2005. You're basing your assumption that it could support H.264 via a software update on the fact that the Aus/NZ TiVos support it and are based on the same platform. However the S3 OLED units and the TiVo HD units are based on the same platform and yet the HD units support M cards and the OLED units do not. My point is there could have been a minor hardware tweak in the Aus/NZ units that allows it to do something the S3/HD units can not. We don't really know why TiVo chose not to add support for H.264 to the S3 platform. I'm making just as many assumptions as you are in that regard. I assume it's because the time it was needed the S3 platform had long since been replaced. You assume it's because of "planned obsolescence". We could both be wrong and it could actually be that it's impossible due to hardware constraints.


Maybe maybe not. Don't forget the Netflix is H.264. Also, H.264 decode would pretty much be solely decided by the SoC. I am pretty sure the one from the TivoHD supports it. Netflix is a lower bit rate than cable H.264, so maybe there is a rate limitation on it. It is possible, but in all likelihood, Tivo did not make the effort to put in support. When their next product came out, they abandoned the S3 and and never added it.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

bradleys said:


> I have said for a while that I think TiVo should bite the bullet and update the software to support h.264 on the S3 models.
> 
> With that said - expecting some dramatic discount on a Roamio isn't reasonable and seems more then just a little self serving. If they were to do that, then I would be all in with my two S3 units. I might even try to drag the S2 unit out of the closet and upgrade it as well! No, that option would put TiVo out of business in a minute!!!
> 
> ...


I don't think $100 off a $1250 purchase is a dramatic discount (I didn't mention this originally, but I would be replacing 2 TivoHDs w/ a Pro and a Mini). I bet it will be bested by holiday time discounts. You must also remember, they offered me the $100 ($200) discount off of service. Service for the Premiere and service for the Roamio are identical.

Financially, I bet that neither offering a discount or fixing it is worthwhile to them. I am a consumer though and I don't always think in financial terms. There is some level of good will to be had.

I do agree that they tried to do something with the Premiere and that was somewhat of a nice gesture. However, right now they are willing to make much bigger gestures elsewhere (Woot, etc.). The net discount offer to me was $150. If you include the retail price of the stream, the Woot discount was $240. They are trying to get rid of these boxes. These boxes won't be supported into the future, just like the TivoHD. I am likely to have some similar problem in a couple more years. That isn't much of a gesture. I know the CSR was working within what he/she could do. I don't expect to get anything more from Tivo. 
I just didn't like the response, so I thought I would post about it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

socrplyr said:


> Maybe maybe not. Don't forget the Netflix is H.264. Also, H.264 decode would pretty much be solely decided by the SoC. I am pretty sure the one from the TivoHD supports it. Netflix is a lower bit rate than cable H.264, so maybe there is a rate limitation on it. It is possible, but in all likelihood, Tivo did not make the effort to put in support. When their next product came out, they abandoned the S3 and and never added it.


Actually the Netflix client the S3 units use stream VC-1, not H.264. However Amazon HD does use H.264 and there is a way to push H.264 from a PC to a S3 via pyTiVo so we know the hardware supports H.264 decoding. However that does not mean there isn't some other limitation that's preventing them from supporting H.264 broadcasts.

My point is we really don't know their reasoning on this. In all likelihood they probably could have supported it via a software upgrade and simply chose not to. Was it because they wanted to push people to buy a new TiVo? Or was it because by the time it was needed the platform was obsolete? I think it was actually a little of both. They didn't add H.264 support to the Premiere units until 2012. At that point they had almost no incentive to back port it to the S3 units and extra incentive not to. If you consider a decision not to upgrade a platform that had not been sold in 2 years "planned obsolescence" then you're probably right.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

socrplyr said:


> I didn't mention this originally, but I would be replacing 2 TivoHDs w/ a Pro and a Mini


That's a significant upgrade. You're going from 4 tuners to 6, 320GB of storage to 3TB, and getting a built in Stream, MoCa and Wifi. You'll also be able to return one of your CableCARDs, saving whatever fees are associated with that, and be able to stream recordings between rooms, even as they are recordoing, rather then having to use the slow transfer method that had to wait until the recording was done to work.

That must have some value to you, no?

Plus think of it this way... Say you get $400 selling the HDs, that brings the price down to $850. If you use those for say 4 years you'll only have paid $18/mo, which I'm sure is cheaper then the DVR offered by your cable company. Plus the Roamio and Mini will still have value so you can sell them to subsidize the upgrade to the next big thing.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

> I don't think $100 off a $1250 purchase is a dramatic discount.





atmuscarella said:


> My opinion is TiVo should either fix the issue or offer people negatively affected a real discount on a Roamio with lifetime (like $500 total).


I was looking at this, which depending on model, would be a 50% or better discount off of the retail price.



> You must also remember, they offered me the $100 ($200) discount off of service. Service for the Premiere and service for the Roamio are identical


But it doesn't bring a stampede of people using an aging S3 to leverage a discount on a Roamio... I also don't think that you are going to see any holiday discounts on the Roamio line this year, maybe next year. By all reports sales are exceeding production at this point, so I think the price is going to stay right where it is.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

bradleys said:


> I was looking at this, which depending on model, would be a 50% or better discount off of the retail price.


My take was they should offer $100 below current price (unit & lifetime service) with MSD, that is not really a big deal for TiVo but still gives the affected users something that no one else can get now so $500, $700, & $900.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> That's a significant upgrade. You're going from 4 tuners to 6, 320GB of storage to 3TB, and getting a built in Stream, MoCa and Wifi. You'll also be able to return one of your CableCARDs, saving whatever fees are associated with that, and be able to stream recordings between rooms, even as they are recordoing, rather then having to use the slow transfer method that had to wait until the recording was done to work.
> 
> That must have some value to you, no?
> 
> Plus think of it this way... Say you get $400 selling the HDs, that brings the price down to $850. If you use those for say 4 years you'll only have paid $18/mo, which I'm sure is cheaper then the DVR offered by your cable company. Plus the Roamio and Mini will still have value so you can sell them to subsidize the upgrade to the next big thing.


I agree that it is a substantial upgrade. (Thus, why I asked for a small discount, not to pay zero.) I don't see the Premiere 4 at $500 + a Mini at $250 as much of an upgrade. Same number of tuners, 50% more storage (which isn't an issue for me). CableCards are $5 per month, so the pay off time is 12.5 years. I don't use Hulu and HD Interface doesn't really get me anything. I am willing to pay to upgrade (especially if it is on my own terms). This isn't on my own terms, so I was seeing if I could get some consideration for that. Unfortunately for me the answer was no. That wasn't surprising as a response. Just disappointing.

In general, I "invest" in things. I buy things that will last me a long time. I pay for lifetime as it will pay off in the long term. Here I feel that term was cut short.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

One thing to be aware of...

As of right now the Stream, the part that sends video to an iPad, does not work with H.264 channels. Not sure if that effects your buying decision in any way but just an FYI. 

See TiVo isn't even 100% up on H.264 support for their current line of products. There is no way they're going to go back and add it to a discontinued product from 3+ years ago.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

One more thing I just realized. If I sell my old boxes, I will now lose my MSD for future purchases. That is annoying, since I am being pushed into this purchase.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> One thing to be aware of...
> 
> As of right now the Stream, the part that sends video to an iPad, does not work with H.264 channels. Not sure if that effects your buying decision in any way but just an FYI.
> 
> See TiVo isn't even 100% up on H.264 support for their current line of products. There is no way they're going to go back and add it to a discontinued product from 3+ years ago.


That is nice to know. It doesn't change my choice right now. I have no intention to use the stream anytime soon. It is just for the future.

Yes, I don't expect Tivo to add it to the old product either. That is why I was focused more on the getting something for the fact that they didn't implement it in the first place.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

socrplyr said:


> One more thing I just realized. If I sell my old boxes, I will now lose my MSD for future purchases. That is annoying, since I am being pushed into this purchase.


If you use the coupon code PLSR at checkout, rather then MSD, you'll get full lifetime for the same price. (it's a $100 off code)


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> If you use the coupon code PLSR at checkout, rather then MSD, you'll get full lifetime for the same price. (it's a $100 off code)


Is that working right now?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I used it a couple weeks ago. It's been around for years.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

socrplyr said:


> Alright, so I am a bit frustrated at Tivo here. Let me know if you think I am out of place in my thinking.
> 
> First off, I have a TivoHD and I now can't get some channels on Fios due to the MPEG4 changes. The first part of my frustration with Tivo comes with the fact that the TivoHD supports MPEG4 (as shown by the Australian Tivo and Netflix), so this is pure "planned obsolescence." It had been known for years that the cable companies were going to move to MPEG4.
> 
> ...


Did you happen to see this post?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9824319#post9824319

Sounds like you ought to be able to get a much better deal out of them.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

H.264 coming to FiOS channels is nothing new. We knew about it years ago. S3 boxes not decoding h.264 channels is not new either, we knew it years ago too. This was one of the reasons to upgrade years ago because there things have been well known for a while. I don't know why anyone would Expect TiVo to upgrade an S3 TiVo from two generations ago that stopped being sold over three years ago. That is just an irrational expectation.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> H.264 coming to FiOS channels is nothing new. We knew about it years ago. S3 boxes not decoding h.264 channels is not new either, we knew it years ago too. This was one of the reasons to upgrade years ago because there things have been well known for a while. I don't know why anyone would Expect TiVo to upgrade an S3 TiVo from two generations ago that stopped being sold over three years ago. That is just an irrational expectation.


If one was paying monthly I would not be so sure that it's an irrational expectation to keep the product working or offer a upgrade path as any cable co does, but for Lifetime, that would be an irrational expectation.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

socrplyr said:


> First off, I have a TivoHD and I now can't get some channels on Fios due to the MPEG4 changes.


Which channels aren't you getting due to MPEG4 implementation on FIOS?

I have FIOS and all the channels that I receive that were mentioned as being changed to MPEG4 still work. I don't get them all, but all my HBO and Cinemax channels still work.

I was going by this list posted by aaronwt on 4/11/13.

ES.TV 558
HBO Family 906
ESPN Goal Line/Buzzer Beater 571
HBO Family (West) 907
Tennis Channel 592 
HBO Latino 912
World Fishing Network 597 
HBO Latino West 913
Cars.TV 599 
MoreMax (West) 923
Pets.TV 633 
Action Max 924
MyDestination.TV 674 
Thriller Max 926
Recipe.TV 676 
W Max 928
Comedy.TV 695 
At Max 929
MGM HD 744 
ESPN 3D 1002


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

waynomo said:


> Which channels aren't you getting due to MPEG4 implementation on FIOS?
> 
> I have FIOS and all the channels that I receive that were mentioned as being changed to MPEG4 still work. I don't get them all, but all my HBO and Cinemax channels still work.
> 
> ...


Those look right. Most of those are using H.264. Although I can't double check which ones right now since I'm in a room with a Mini.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

waynomo said:


> I don't get them all, but all my HBO and Cinemax channels still work.


Those haven't actually been changed yet. The others in that list have, plus there are some new H.264 channels, like 735 (Sony) and 598 (BeIN).

I can assure you that the Series 3 does not in fact tune in the H.264 channels.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I used it a couple weeks ago. It's been around for years.


I tried it and it said invalid code.
Hmm. Is there a different place than the promo code place? Or something that needs to be done differently?
Thanks,
Josh


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

socrplyr said:


> I tried it and it said invalid code.
> Hmm. Is there a different place than the promo code place? Or something that needs to be done differently?
> Thanks,
> Josh


I just used the PLSR code last week with my replacement Roamio Pro.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> I just used the PLSR code last week with my replacement Roamio Pro.


Did you order it from Tivo? Or did you buy locally and put it in when activating?


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## Loach (Jan 11, 2013)

socrplyr said:


> Did you order it from Tivo? Or did you buy locally and put it in when activating?


It only works for units not purchased directly from Tivo. There is no place to enter the code when ordering the unit w/pre-activated service directly from Tivo.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Those haven't actually been changed yet. The others in that list have, plus there are some new H.264 channels, like 735 (Sony) and 598 (BeIN).
> 
> I can assure you that the Series 3 does not in fact tune in the H.264 channels.


Just for clarification Series 3 = TiVoHD, yes?

I don't get those 2 channels either. I do get the Tennis Channel on 592 and that was still working for me also on my HD and is on the list.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

waynomo said:


> Just for clarification Series 3 = TiVoHD, yes


Yes


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

waynomo said:


> Just for clarification Series 3 = TiVoHD, yes?


Yes.



> _I don't get those 2 channels either. I do get the Tennis Channel on 592 and that was still working for me also on my HD and is on the list._


I missed that one, then. Tennis Channel has not been converted.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

This is such a BS argument. MPEG4 was absolutely KNOWN to be coming WAY before 2010. Frankly, back in 2007 there were clear discussions, and the sat/DBS providers had already started moving in that direction for the exact same reasons that everyone knew that MSOs would have to use at some point. Sure, the P3 was initially designed back around 2005/2006. However, it was marketed and SOLD as new for more than 5 years. By Tivo. 

None of us know exactly why Tivo made the decisions that they made, however many actually expected VZ to move to MPEG4 well before they did. This is not the first time that Tivo has gone down a road that perhaps was not the best possible direction. I'm not saying they should need to plan for everything.

However.

This is Tivos ONLY business. Their ONLY means to stay relevant. If Tivo makes a decision that cripples their technology because they failed to effectively stay ahead of the market sufficiently that they can remain a leader, then it is an extremely poor reflection on their business model, and on their decision making process. It's just that simple. Period. Tivo totally and completely depends on content from the MSOs. It is VITAL to their interest to stay joined at the hip, test, test and more test, and to make nice with customers when they trip and fall from time to time. I find that Tivo met none of these particulars in this case. 

Just my 2cents.


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

I have a Tivo 3, Tivo HD and now a Roamio. I do not like that Tivo didn't update the software on the series 3 when mpeg4 became available. Don't they already have it working in other areas (Austrailia?).

I don't think they should be required to update it. I think they should. I consider it poor customer service and a hint of how things may move in the future. That may well keep me from purchasing in the future if they continue to make these type of decisions.

If they choose to quit updating the software for basic functionality, they should remove or lower the monthly service fee to a maintenance level.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmhjr said:


> This is such a BS argument. MPEG4 was absolutely KNOWN to be coming WAY before 2010. Frankly, back in 2007 there were clear discussions, and the sat/DBS providers had already started moving in that direction for the exact same reasons that everyone knew that MSOs would have to use at some point. Sure, the P3 was initially designed back around 2005/2006. However, it was marketed and SOLD as new for more than 5 years. By Tivo.
> 
> None of us know exactly why Tivo made the decisions that they made, however many actually expected VZ to move to MPEG4 well before they did. This is not the first time that Tivo has gone down a road that perhaps was not the best possible direction. I'm not saying they should need to plan for everything.
> 
> ...


The S3 platform has an H.264 decoder. So they had the foresight to include the hardware required to do H.264. The problem is that cable companies did not actually deploy H.264 channels while the S3 platform was still being developed for. So TiVo never had a viable test platform for adding support. In fact H.264 channels didn't really start popping up in cable systems until early last year, and even now they're still pretty rare nationwide.

Had they added the feature back when the S3 was still being sold, without proper testing, and it turned out to have some unforeseen flaw then they would have been forced to go back now and fix it even though the platform has been dead for over 3 years. That's not a wise business strategy.

It's not like TiVo has no option for these channels. You can buy a Premiere or a Roamio and these channels will work fine. The fact that you feel entitled to a major upgrade on box that was discontinued over 3 years ago is ridiculous. If you want to access these channels then buy a new TiVo.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

cram501 said:


> If they choose to quit updating the software for basic functionality, they should remove or lower the monthly service fee to a maintenance level.


I bet the vast majority of S3 units still in service have lifetime service. Back when the S3 units were still being sold lifetime was only $199-$299 and was considered written off the books after 3 years. So as far as TiVo is concerned those users are not actually paying for service any longer.

If you're actually paying for monthly service then you should really consider upgrading. You can get a used Premiere without lifetime for about $40 and all your H.264 problems would be solved.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Verizon's long-stated FiOS plan since inception was to go IP... H.264 over QAM is a stopgap plan that only materialized in the last couple years. Fios might not have worked with any Tivos at all anymore right about now if not for their change of plans. So from another perspective, one might be glad that their old box can still get 95% of the available programming and not have a total paperweight, less they change providers.

Verizon themselves have been walking on eggshells to make sure only the lowest-traffic channels get transitioned over. They're all either in special packages, 2nd and 3rd tier premium channels, or otherwise (subjectively speaking) crappy channels only on the highest paying tier of service.

It would be nice if Tivo did an update. Certainly nobody would complain. But they can do the math and see how many people this impacts in real terms and how much they REALLY miss that low-traffic content.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> The S3 platform has an H.264 decoder. So they had the foresight to include the hardware required to do H.264. The problem is that cable companies did not actually deploy H.264 channels while the S3 platform was still being developed for. So TiVo never had a viable test platform for adding support. In fact H.264 channels didn't really start popping up in cable systems until early last year, and even now they're still pretty rare nationwide.


Test Platform from 2008:
http://www.sri.com/newsroom/press-releases/sarnoff-releases-new-h264avc-bitstreams-opencable

That is not a valid argument anyways. You don't do most of your testing on a live cable tv system. Not in this thread, but in another one that I had seen, comments to this effect were rampant. Tivo does most of their testing before it is put out there. Other threads suggested that the majority of their testing was done in beta test type rollouts. That is not true. I grant you that Tivo would most likely have to make minor fixes as things rolled out and began to be used. However, most of those things should have been minor.

My argument was that it should have been in the product in the first place. Since it wasn't, how should they remedy? I gave up on a remedy, but that doesn't mean that I don't think there should have been one.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> The S3 platform has an H.264 decoder. So they had the foresight to include the hardware required to do H.264. The problem is that cable companies did not actually deploy H.264 channels while the S3 platform was still being developed for. So TiVo never had a viable test platform for adding support. In fact H.264 channels didn't really start popping up in cable systems until early last year, and even now they're still pretty rare nationwide.
> 
> Had they added the feature back when the S3 was still being sold, without proper testing, and it turned out to have some unforeseen flaw then they would have been forced to go back now and fix it even though the platform has been dead for over 3 years. That's not a wise business strategy.
> 
> It's not like TiVo has no option for these channels. You can buy a Premiere or a Roamio and these channels will work fine. The fact that you feel entitled to a major upgrade on box that was discontinued over 3 years ago is ridiculous. If you want to access these channels then buy a new TiVo.


I'm sorry, but I simply do not buy this argument in any fashion. If the hardware is there, then development and testing is possible. The platform is not "dead". Tivo chose to change their licensing model (subscription) and there are plenty of those units out there.

Please don't assume I think that I should be "entitled to a major upgrade to a box that was discontinued over 3 years ago". I said nothing of the kind. However, I also did not say it was reasonable to simply abandon customers and tell them to "buy a new Tivo". And actually, if they provided a way to at least partially subsidize the "lifetime support" we've already paid for then I'd also be OK.

However, I simply do not in any possible way buy your justification for Tivo to behave this way.

Let me take this a bit further. I think it's this kind of after the fact acceptance of Tivo acting this way that continues to give them reason to treat customers differently than they should. The BOTTOM LINE for which there is ZERO DEBATE is that Tivo is a 3rd party, totally dependent on them staying aligned with the MSOs as far technology is concerned. Without them being aligned with the MSOs, Tivo is utterly, and totally dead. Zero value.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

socrplyr said:


> Other threads suggested that the majority of their testing was done in beta test type rollouts. That is not true.


It is true! I've been part of several early beta tests where core functionality was still broken. And before they let in people like me they do a lot of their testing in the wild using their employees. Bench tests only get you so far. Working in the video industry myself I can tell you that broadcasters rarely follow the specs. So you have to account for many, many, variations and the only reliable way to do that is to test in the wild.

Just look at what's going on over in the Roamio forum with the 6 tuners. There are tons of people who are having problems using more then 4 tuners because of minor variations in CableCARD and tuning adapter firmware. Even though I'm sure they designed the product exactly to spec.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmhjr said:


> The BOTTOM LINE for which there is ZERO DEBATE is that Tivo is a 3rd party, totally dependent on them staying aligned with the MSOs as far technology is concerned. Without them being aligned with the MSOs, Tivo is utterly, and totally dead. Zero value.


That's actually not true. Over the last few years TiVo has been shifting their business away from being a retail product to being an MSO supplier. They saw how difficult it was to be a 3rd party and how the MSOs could screw them over at any time (i.e. SDV) and decided the only way they were going to survive was to be on the inside.

At this point I think the retail portion is nothing more then something to keep them afloat until they can become a major MSO supplier. It also gives them a test platform for new technologies that the MSOs might be reluctant to implement on their own.

The Roamio may very well be the last retail DVR TiVo ever sells.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> That's actually not true. Over the last few years TiVo has been shifting their business away from being a retail product to being an MSO supplier. They saw how difficult it was to be a 3rd party and how the MSOs could screw them over at any time (i.e. SDV) and decided the only way they were going to survive was to be on the inside.
> 
> At this point I think the retail portion is nothing more then something to keep them afloat until they can become a major MSO supplier. It also gives them a test platform for new technologies that the MSOs might be reluctant to implement on their own.
> 
> The Roamio may very well be the last retail DVR TiVo ever sells.


Actually, Dan - you just made my point. Tivo is utterly and totally dependent on the MSOs. Either they become a supplier to the MSO, or they are a 3rd party retailer. In either case, they are 3rd party and cannot survive without the MSOs.

In particular, as more and more "cut the cord" and move to streaming capabilities, Tivo is far from a leader in that case. So, it behooves Tivo to protect the subscription base. Beyond that, if they have decided to simply become a major MSO provider and the Roamio is the last retail DVR (which would also not surprise me), then everything is changed. It makes the entire "lifetime subscription" value debatable, support is debatable, etc.

BTW, I would not criticize Tivo for doing this. I've said for years that their only real opportunity for growth is to sell their tech directly to the MSOs. Between the increased competition from MSO DVRs, and the increasing amount of content via streaming, Tivo is not in a good place, and their value proposition continues to become more and more problematic.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> It is true! I've been part of several early beta tests where core functionality was still broken. And before they let in people like me they do a lot of their testing in the wild using their employees. Bench tests only get you so far. Working in the video industry myself I can tell you that broadcasters rarely follow the specs. So you have to account for many, many, variations and the only reliable way to do that is to test in the wild.
> 
> Just look at what's going on over in the Roamio forum with the 6 tuners. There are tons of people who are having problems using more then 4 tuners because of minor variations in CableCARD and tuning adapter firmware. Even though I'm sure they designed the product exactly to spec.


Dan, again we disagree. Tivo has the ability to test against the major MSOs. They "choose" to not invest in such capabilities. I'm not suggesting that they should or should not. Only that they DO have the capability. Tivo is actually in a good position in terms of their ability to manage change - if they elected to do so. So much of their ecosystem is totally within their control it's amazing. I get so ticked off when people make arguments like "well, you have to reboot your pc sometimes" as an explanation as to why Tivos reboot, lock up, etc. That's BS. Total BS. There are VERY few variables outside of Tivos ability to control in terms of environmental factors. Tivo totally controls the UI, and ALL applications. Users do not have (without hacking) the ability to in any possible way modify a single byte of Tivo software. None. We can't add apps. We can't change apps. We can't install 3rd party apps. Certainly there are other factors, such as cablecard implementation (by MSO), signal strength, etc - but that's about it. And all of those "could" be tested - easily. I think you know that.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Verizon's long-stated plan since inception was to go IP. h.264 over QAM is a stopgap plan that only materialized in the last couple years. Fios might not work at all with any Tivo anymore right about now if not for their change of plans. So from another perspective, one might be glad that they can still get 95% of the available programming and not have a total paperweight, less they change providers.
> 
> Verizon themselves have been walking on eggshells to make sure only the lowest-traffic channels get transitioned over. They're all either in special packages, 2nd and 3rd tier premium channels, or otherwise (subjectively speaking) crappy channels only on the highest paying tier of service.
> 
> It would be nice if Tivo did an update. Certainly nobody would complain. But they can do the math and see how many people this impacts in real terms and how much they REALLY miss that low-traffic content.


I'm very happy Verizon changed their plans. I read about it years ago and back then I had figured by now I would have had to switch to Comcast to continue using my TiVos.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> I'm very happy Verizon changed their plans. I read about it years ago and back then I had figured by now I would have had to switch to Comcast to continue using my TiVos.


You and me both. That Media Server coming out might be a very different beast otherwise, and the party would be over for everyone.

And the IPTV plan predates even the Tivo HD. So this debate swings both ways. Since Verizon's actual plan of IPTV was known, why get a Tivo HD when it ran the risk of bricking? Heck, I remember being concerned about buying a Premiere because the IPTV transition was increasingly looming and talked about. Risk was built-in from the start. We ALL got lucky that they changed direction and just about the only loss to date has been the least-watched channels on the older hardware.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmhjr said:


> Dan, again we disagree. Tivo has the ability to test against the major MSOs. They "choose" to not invest in such capabilities. I'm not suggesting that they should or should not. Only that they DO have the capability. Tivo is actually in a good position in terms of their ability to manage change - if they elected to do so. So much of their ecosystem is totally within their control it's amazing. I get so ticked off when people make arguments like "well, you have to reboot your pc sometimes" as an explanation as to why Tivos reboot, lock up, etc. That's BS. Total BS. There are VERY few variables outside of Tivos ability to control in terms of environmental factors. Tivo totally controls the UI, and ALL applications. Users do not have (without hacking) the ability to in any possible way modify a single byte of Tivo software. None. We can't add apps. We can't change apps. We can't install 3rd party apps. Certainly there are other factors, such as cablecard implementation (by MSO), signal strength, etc - but that's about it. And all of those "could" be tested - easily. I think you know that.


My point was that 3 years ago when they stopped development for the S3 platform there were no MSOs using H.264 so there was nothing to test against even if they wanted to. They could have tested against the spec and thrown the code into the product in hopes that it would work when/if the MSOs decided to switch to H.264. However if they had done that and there was a problem people would expect them to fix it and they'd be worse off then they are now. At least now they can just say the S3 platform does not support H.264. If they had a broken implementation then they'd have to fix it or deal with constant support complaints from people who were having issues.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

socrplyr said:


> Test Platform from 2008:
> http://www.sri.com/newsroom/press-releases/sarnoff-releases-new-h264avc-bitstreams-opencable
> 
> That is not a valid argument anyways. You don't do most of your testing on a live cable tv system. Not in this thread, but in another one that I had seen, comments to this effect were rampant. Tivo does most of their testing before it is put out there. Other threads suggested that the majority of their testing was done in beta test type rollouts. That is not true. I grant you that Tivo would most likely have to make minor fixes as things rolled out and began to be used. However, most of those things should have been minor.
> ...


You do most of your testing in-house, but should do quite a bit of it on live systems. Otherwise, some unexpected problems could happen after you launch and you could be in big trouble. Tivo never promised H.264 support, and rightfully so.

It's also obvious Tivo doesn't do ANY real testing on live systems, and are perfectly happy to let the early adopters be beta testers. See the Roamio threads about 6 tuners and HBO/Cinemax not working properly. How could they possibly miss that? All they had to do was use older CableCards and they couldn't even bother to do that. Unless they planned on using their customers' anger and frustration as leverage to get the other companies to fix their problems....

Finally, if it should have been in the product, but it wasn't, and was never promised, AND YOU BOUGHT IT ANYWAY, whose fault is that? All yours, I'm afraid.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

BobCamp1 said:


> It's also obvious Tivo doesn't do ANY real testing on live systems, and are perfectly happy to let the early adopters be beta testers. See the Roamio threads about 6 tuners and HBO/Cinemax not working properly. How could they possibly miss that? All they had to do was use older CableCards and they couldn't even bother to do that.


Do you realize what you're asking for? Cablecards are tied to particular head-end software, with proprietary software on both ends. You're asking TiVo to duplicate hundreds of different set-ups, all proprietary, in house, in order to test older cards. That sounds impossible to me, not just something "they couldn't even bother to do".


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

I realize the whole principle of the thing being debated, but does anybody regularly watch the channels that are now mpeg4?

I find it not a coincidence that the channels on the list that I receive have not been converted. I take this to mean that FIOS is only converting the least watched channels. Far be it for me to dictate anybody's taste, but in the scheme of things it seems a relatively minute annoyance.

FIOS needs to convert to MPEG4 so they can distribute more channels. I think this is a good thing even if eventually I lost a few channels. Now obviously it would not be good for me if I lost all the HD channels. Perhaps I should look at selling my TiVoHD. I wonder what I could get for it. It has a lifetime subscription and an upgraded HD. I think I upgraded to 1 TB.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

philhu said:


> Mr. Unnatural......They did NOt do their obligation. Mpeg4 came out well within the 3yr obligation for support. and Tivo chose not to update their systems, even though the HARDWARE could support h.264 (and does for netflix, etc). That forced obsolescence of the product.
> 
> Back in 2010, everyone knew cable companies were going to H.265 to save space on the cable. It wasn't 'out of the blue'


Welcome to the world of Tivo. You buy a Tivo and you're locked into whatever capabilities the box has to offer. If something new comes along the the current model can't handle or they're unable to fix it with a software upgrade, you may or may not see it in the next model they release. It's one of the reasons I switched to using a HTPC as my DVR and dumped Tivo. I'm on FIOS and don't have any issues with mpeg4 since the transition was seamless for me. I already had the codecs installed for mpeg4 playback.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Welcome to the world of Tivo. You buy a Tivo and you're locked into whatever capabilities the box has to offer.


Seems pretty much like any other product I purchase.

I don't get why people are singling out TiVo for this.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Cox was the first major provider to begin offering 25-30 H.264/MPEG-4 channels in November 2011.

At that time even the Premiere SW did not support the H.264/MPEG-4 channels. It took TiVo several months of testing to release an update that allowed for it to work. SW Update 20.2.1.1 was May 2012.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=487165

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9088168#post9088168


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Welcome to the world of Tivo. You buy a Tivo and you're locked into whatever capabilities the box has to offer. If something new comes along the the current model can't handle or they're unable to fix it with a software upgrade, you may or may not see it in the next model they release. It's one of the reasons I switched to using a HTPC as my DVR and dumped Tivo. I'm on FIOS and don't have any issues with mpeg4 since the transition was seamless for me. I already had the codecs installed for mpeg4 playback.


That wouldn't have been the case if you were using Windows XP. MS did not support H.264 in the original DVR-MS format they used for MCE recordings. They didn't add support until they created the WTV format. The WTV format was sort of ported back to Vista, but was only fully supported in Win7. If you had been using XP then you would have been forced to do a Windows upgrade, which would have cost abut $150, to gain the ability to record H.264. MS essentially did the same thin as TiVo. There was no technical limitation preventing them from porting the WTV format back to XP, but they chose not to because XP had been discontinued and it was not in their interest to do so.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I had been using Windows XP with BeyondTV as my DVR until the Ceton InfiniTV4 cablecard tuner was released. I had to make the switch in order to use it, so it's a moot point in that regard. If you wanted to use a cablecard tuner on a PC and you didn't have one of the turnkey setups that used the ATI tuner with the 2005 XP Media Center Edition, you had no choice but to upgrade to Windows 7.

I'm not sure where you get the $150 price tag for a Windows 7 upgrade unless you're going with one of the more advanced versions, which is overkill for a HTPC. I pre-ordered a Windows 7 Pro upgrade for $99 prior to it being released. I later purchased a 3-pack of Windows Home Premium licenses for my other PCs for $125. A standalone upgrade license for Win 7 Home Premium is available for as low as $79. Retail is $99. A Win 7 Pro upgrade is $140.

Microsoft will stop supporting XP sometime next year, IIRC, so there's little reason to keep using it unless you have older PCs you want to keep in service.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Wasn't there a hack that allowed Ceton cards work with XP?

As for the price... The upgrade price for Home Premium is $120 and for Pro it's $200. I was going from memory so I was a little off. 

Even so the point stands. If you had been using XP you would have had to upgrade to get H.264 support because MS made a business decision not to back port WTV support to XP because it was obsolete. Same thing applies to the S3 TiVo. H.264 broadcasting didn't come along until after the S3 was obsolete.

And for those that say TiVo should offer a discount on service because of this... They do! The S3 TiVos only cost $12.95/$9.95 a month. The S4/S5 units cost $14.95/$12.95. Also back when S3 units were being sold lifetime was only $199/$299.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Wasn't there a hack that allowed Ceton cards work with XP?


I haven't heard of one. However, there are now at least two or three Media Center front ends besides WMC that will work with the Ceton cards as long as your channels are copy freely. SageTV was one and Media Portal is another. I'm think MythTV may also work, but I'm not absolutely sure.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Do you realize what you're asking for? Cablecards are tied to particular head-end software, with proprietary software on both ends. You're asking TiVo to duplicate hundreds of different set-ups, all proprietary, in house, in order to test older cards. That sounds impossible to me, not just something "they couldn't even bother to do".


No, I'm asking them to do real live system beta testing in people's real houses. And it's not hundreds, but a sampling in major cable systems would have been nice. The software is proprietary but there don't appear to be a lot of variants -- that is, many cable systems are using the same exact software.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

BobCamp1 said:


> No, I'm asking them to do real live system beta testing in people's real houses. And it's not hundreds, but a sampling in major cable systems would have been nice. The software is proprietary but there don't appear to be a lot of variants -- that is, many cable systems are using the same exact software.


And how were they suppose to do that when there were no cable systems broadcasting in H.264 back when they stopped developing for the S3 platform? If you're talking about now then it's too late. The S3 platform has been obsolete for almost 3 years now. They are not going to start developing new software for it just because there a few people who can't tune a handful of H.264 channels. Had H.264 gone into broad deployment back when the S3 was the current platform then I'm sure they would have, but now it's to late.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

BobCamp1 said:


> No, I'm asking them to do real live system beta testing in people's real houses. And it's not hundreds, but a sampling in major cable systems would have been nice. The software is proprietary but there don't appear to be a lot of variants -- that is, many cable systems are using the same exact software.


I think I'm standing by my estimate of hundreds of variants. We're pretty much just seeing the cablecard variants with problems. Comcast has dozens of cablecard variants across the country. In addition, there's all the known differences in back-end problems we know about (eg, the Seattle and other market problems with Fox that are not cablecard related, and the earlier problems of Florida Cablevision systems that are different.) There's the tuning adapter hardware and software variants that cause problems. The amount of SDV channels a franchise has matters. Whether a franchise has any analog channels matters. Whether a franchise has h.264 channels matters. What the franchise does with local origination channels matters (I've had problems in the past with my franchise doing strange things with the audio.)

And then there's all variation in the home of a beta tester. Whether they are OTA or not; whether they have 4 or 6 tuners; what kind of network they have; whether they have premium channels; whether they have various internet source providers (Netflix, hulu plus, MLB network, etc); whether they have iOS tablets; whether they have network problems; whether they have too strong of an input signal; whether they have too weak of an input signal; what the "shape" of the signal is (the different shape of FIOS vs coaxial signals has caused TiVo problems in the past); whether they have kmttg or pyTiVo or TiVo Desktop; whether they have multiple TiVos and what kind of TiVos they have.

Hmm, I got carried away a bit. But I'm sure TiVo handles much more variability than I mention above. They obviously have a beta program with live testers since they are inviting people to it (and Dave Zatz has been reporting on it for months!) Could more problems have been found with a larger beta? Absolutely. But just the variants above would probably require thousands of beta testers to cover. That's prohibitive.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> And how were they suppose to do that when there were no cable systems broadcasting in H.264 back when they stopped developing for the S3 platform? If you're talking about now then it's too late. The S3 platform has been obsolete for almost 3 years now. They are not going to start developing new software for it just because there a few people who can't tune a handful of H.264 channels. Had H.264 gone into broad deployment back when the S3 was the current platform then I'm sure they would have, but now it's to late.


That was the exact point I was trying to make. I think you misinterpreted my previous posts. Just like how the S3s can't support M-cards -- the M-cards came out after the S3 was released and it turns out there's an incompatibility. Even if the spec. is complete, there's always gray areas or flat out bugs that can give you problems unless you beta test first.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> I think I'm standing by my estimate of hundreds of variants. We're pretty much just seeing the cablecard variants with problems. Comcast has dozens of cablecard variants across the country. In addition, there's all the known differences in back-end problems we know about (eg, the Seattle and other market problems with Fox that are not cablecard related, and the earlier problems of Florida Cablevision systems that are different.) There's the tuning adapter hardware and software variants that cause problems. The amount of SDV channels a franchise has matters. Whether a franchise has any analog channels matters. Whether a franchise has h.264 channels matters. What the franchise does with local origination channels matters (I've had problems in the past with my franchise doing strange things with the audio.)
> 
> And then there's all variation in the home of a beta tester. Whether they are OTA or not; whether they have 4 or 6 tuners; what kind of network they have; whether they have premium channels; whether they have various internet source providers (Netflix, hulu plus, MLB network, etc); whether they have iOS tablets; whether they have network problems; whether they have too strong of an input signal; whether they have too weak of an input signal; what the "shape" of the signal is (the different shape of FIOS vs coaxial signals has caused TiVo problems in the past); whether they have kmttg or pyTiVo or TiVo Desktop; whether they have multiple TiVos and what kind of TiVos they have.
> 
> Hmm, I got carried away a bit. But I'm sure TiVo handles much more variability than I mention above. They obviously have a beta program with live testers since they are inviting people to it (and Dave Zatz has been reporting on it for months!) Could more problems have been found with a larger beta? Absolutely. But just the variants above would probably require thousands of beta testers to cover. That's prohibitive.


But most of these bugs were easy to catch. You wouldn't need a huge sample to catch them. Cisco even has release notes that say that only the latest version of CableCard firmware supported all six tuners, which should have thrown up red flags.

I'll agree the Seatlle bug is a fluke, and there is no real way to catch that one. But ALL Cisco/CableVision customers were affected. And ALL FIOS customers had issues with HBO/Cinemax, which are the only channels that have copy protection on them. These aren't small MSOs here.

Anyway, getting back to the topic, this shows how Tivo might have problems supporting H.264 in the S3s. There is enough difficulty supporting the latest stuff, never mind trying to guess how the future stuff might get implemented by the MSOs.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Tivo is only allowed to count a lifetime subscription for 66 months. Many lifetime Tivo HDs can no longer be shown as a source of revenue for accounting purposes. I certainly would not expect Tivo to support a lifetime tivo older than 66 months. Maybe they could offer a month or two of free netflix or some free amazon downloads as compensation for the lifetime users newer than 66 months or a reduced subscription rate for monthly subscription customers.


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> That was the exact point I was trying to make. I think you misinterpreted my previous posts. Just like how the S3s can't support M-cards -- the M-cards came out after the S3 was released and it turns out there's an incompatibility. Even if the spec. is complete, there's always gray areas or flat out bugs that can give you problems unless you beta test first.


There wasn't an incompatibility. Tivo chose not to update the S3 to use M-Cards. They were phasing out the original S3 and it wasn't worth the effort. TivoPony explained it a few years back.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=402682 (post #15)



> Tivo is only allowed to count a lifetime subscription for 66 months. Many lifetime Tivo HDs can no longer be shown as a source of revenue for accounting purposes. I certainly would not expect Tivo to support a lifetime tivo older than 66 months. Maybe they could offer a month or two of free netflix or some free amazon downloads as compensation for the lifetime users newer than 66 months or a reduced subscription rate for monthly subscription customers.


How they count a lifetime Tivo for accounting reasons should have no bearing on support for the platform. That is a risk Tivo takes in offering that option. They updated the S3 for H.264 at some point (Australia?) and decided not to make that available to the US market. If they had never supported H.264 on the S3 platform or it didn't have the capability to recieve mpeg4, it would be reasonable. Viewing all channels you receive is fundamental to the platform (unlike the s/card vs. m/card debate).

It has little impact on me (I'll watch mpeg4 on my Roamio) but moves like that ultimately tarnish their reputation and ultimately lower what people are willing to pay for their products. I assume they will take any minor hit in their reputation as a cost of doing business.

I wonder how many of the original S3's and HD's are still out there? (I have one of each I'm phasing out with roamio's)


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

cram501 said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=402682 (post #15)


BTW, you can link directly to individual posts:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6598668#post6598668

The link is attached to the post number.


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> The link is attached to the post number.


Considering I've been using this board for a long time, you'd think I would have figured it out. I guess I do more lurking than posting.

Thanks for the info.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

cram501 said:


> There wasn't an incompatibility. Tivo chose not to update the S3 to use M-Cards. They were phasing out the original S3 and it wasn't worth the effort. TivoPony explained it a few years back.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=402682 (post #15)
> 
> ...............


And there was a good reason for that.



> (M-Card for S3 is technically possible, but also technically very complex. We've learned that there is a lot of risk inherent in that development).


They had the potential to do more harm then good. So why would they bother if it was going to open up a huge can of worms?


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> And there was a good reason for that.
> 
> They had the potential to do more harm then good. So why would they bother if it was going to open up a huge can of worms?


I didn't really address whether they should have added m-card support or not. I just said it wasn't a technical limitation. It was a choice they made.

Whenever you make software modifications you have the potential to do more harm than good. Their decision may have been based on risk/reward but my guess is that it was most likely based on available resources. Tivo decided adding m-card support wasn't worth the investment in people/money/time for the small customer base they had.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It was my understanding that it required a PROM update and TiVo decided that a PROM update in the field was simply too risky. If they bricked even a few units it would have been a huge PR nightmare.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> It was my understanding that it required a PROM update and TiVo decided that a PROM update in the field was simply too risky. If they bricked even a few units it would have been a huge PR nightmare.


Instead, they just let the bad PR develop and fester from failing to explain the issue.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmcbrine said:


> Instead, they just let the bad PR develop and fester from failing to explain the issue.


I don't think they even sold enough S3 OLED units for it to be a big PR problem. Those things were like $800/ea, before service. I'd be surprised if sales got above the low 5 figures. And by the time M-cards actually started coming on the scene they had already replaced the S3 OLED with the TiVo HD. The number of people effected by the limitation was probably pretty small.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I don't think they even sold enough S3 OLED units for it to be a big PR problem. Those things were like $800/ea, before service. I'd be surprised if sales got above the low 5 figures. And by the time M-cards actually started coming on the scene they had already replaced the S3 OLED with the TiVo HD. The number of people effected by the limitation was probably pretty small.


Yes they were expensive and when they were first released they also did not offer lifetime service. I think I paid $300 for 3 years of TiVo service for each of my three OLED S3 boxes. And then once the three years was up I got lifetime service on them. At least I got it for a discount. Although I sold/gave away all my OLED S3 and TiVoHD boxes shortly after.(My GF has two of my OLED S3 boxes that I gave her)


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

I got the original S3 when it first came out in late Sept 2006. I was able to transfer it to lifetime in Jan 2007 for around $200. (I was paying the monthly rate up to then).

It's a little slow and only 30 hours of recording time but it's still working like a champ.

I wonder how many they sold before the Tivo HD came on the scene? At the ~$800 price, I can't see it being that many considering that HDTV still had limited availability. I think most, if not all, of my HDTV at the time came from OTA.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

cram501 said:


> How they count a lifetime Tivo for accounting reasons should have no bearing on support for the platform. That is a risk Tivo takes in offering that option. They updated the S3 for H.264 at some point (Australia?) and decided not to make that available to the US market. If they had never supported H.264 on the S3 platform or it didn't have the capability to recieve mpeg4, it would be reasonable. Viewing all channels you receive is fundamental to the platform (unlike the s/card vs. m/card debate).


Accounting reasons should have bearing when you're adding an enhancement instead of fixing a bug.

And I don't care what Tivo did in other markets. That's a different branch of code. It's not trivial to copy that code into another branch. Besides, it's not just "H.264", you have to figure out which substandards and features each MSO chose to implement. Not to mention licensing fees.

Did Tivo promise you H.264 support for the S3 here in the United States of America? No, they did not. Did they even promise that you'd always receive every single channel? No, they did not. And they still don't, which is why there's a small risk in buying a set top box instead of renting one from your cable company.

You buy products for what they can do today, not what you think they might be capable of doing in the future. Otherwise you're going to be constantly disappointed.


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> Accounting reasons should have bearing when you're adding an enhancement instead of fixing a bug.
> 
> And I don't care what Tivo did in other markets. That's a different branch of code. It's not trivial to copy that code into another branch. Besides, it's not just "H.264", you have to figure out which substandards and features each MSO chose to implement. Not to mention licensing fees.
> 
> ...


Of course you should expect to receive all channels for the market that align with the cable card specifications. I expect to continue to receive them even if alterations to the code have to be made. I don't expect a product I purchased to maybe, possibly, sometimes work.

I don't consider it an enhancement. I consider it maintenance on a product they offered with a lifetime option. That is where our opinions really diverge.

If their code is that big of a mess that merging different branches is that difficult, they have other problems. Merging code bases can be a pain in the ass but I bet that played a minor role at best in the decision. Planning for the resource allocation, testing, and roll out of the changes were probably much more significant. And I don't really care what hoops they have to jump through to make it happen. That is a risk they take by producing a product for which they offered a lifetime option. The risk I take is that they will continue to support it.

And your right, I am disappointed and not because h.264 did not make into the S3. I'm disappointed because this shows the decision making process they are going through when they decide how long to support one of their products. How long until a premiere someone just purchased no longer receives updates to fix the problems that are still there?

How much I'm willing to spend and when I'm willing to spend for one of their products is impacted by decisions like this. You may not make decisions based on how the product is supported going forward and the track record of the company, but I do.

I consider that decision by Tivo to be a mistake. So far it has had little impact on me but if they continue make decisions like this, that may change.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

cram501 said:


> I got the original S3 when it first came out in late Sept 2006. I was able to transfer it to lifetime in Jan 2007 for around $200. (I was paying the monthly rate up to then).
> 
> It's a little slow and only 30 hours of recording time but it's still working like a champ.
> 
> I wonder how many they sold before the Tivo HD came on the scene? At the ~$800 price, I can't see it being that many considering that HDTV still had limited availability. I think most, if not all, of my HDTV at the time came from OTA.


I wish they would have offered me that deal. When I got mine I prepaid three years. No one offered to convert me to lifetime when they started offering it again. But they did give me a deal on lifetime when those three years were up.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

philhu said:


> From the UCC (Universal Commercial Code act)
> 
> It is the merchantability and fitness clauses.
> 
> ...


I think the merchantability and fitness clause applies to the merchandise, not to a warranty. If Tivo has the burden of knowing that there were some channel formats that the Tivo HD could not receive, then you have that same burden. You were free to reject the shipment under the merchantability and fitness clause at the time you started using the Tivo, but you didn't. You used the Tivo for years and that implies that you accepted the shipment.


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> I wish they would have offered me that deal. When I got mine I prepaid three years. No one offered to convert me to lifetime when they started offering it again. But they did give me a deal on lifetime when those three years were up.


I'd have to go back through the threads on the board, but I think they offered it for a short period of time because of the complaints they were receiving. A lot of people were in your shoes and pushed to be able to convert over.

I believe they only offered it for a month or two and it was still difficult to get converted. It basically was customer service roulette.

This is all from memory of seven years ago, so I may have all, some, or none of the fact correct.

Edit: I did go back to the old threads. I transferred by old DirectTV Tivo lifetime membership to my S3. For about a month they allowed DirectTV Tivo transfers. If you had purchased one and activated it, it was a pain to get the cancellation fee waived.

Ref: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4825670#post4825670


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> Yes they were expensive and when they were first released they also did not offer lifetime service. I think I paid $300 for 3 years of TiVo service for each of my three OLED S3 boxes.


I had cleaned out the local BestBuy of lifetime cards when they were discontinued and saved a few for myself (bought 11, sold all but 3 for significant profit) so both of our S3s had real lifetime. (used the last one for my first Premiere)


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I had cleaned out the local BestBuy of lifetime cards when they were discontinued and saved a few for myself (bought 11, sold all but 3 for significant profit) so both of our S3s had real lifetime. (used the last one for my first Premiere)


I had used TiVos with DirecTV prior to getting the OLED boxes. Had I known about those lifetime cards I would have picked a bunch up just to make a profit. I really made out with the DirecTV SD TiVo and HD boxes. I bought several of each and sold them at enough profit to cover my initial three SD boxes in early 2002 and most of the cost of upgraded hard drives. In 2004 I did the same thing to cover the cost of two DirecTV HD boxes and the cost of upgrading to dual hard drives. But when I switched to the cable TiVos in late 2006 it was a whole new ballgame for me. By the time I found out about lifetime service it was way too late since I think they had stopped that the year prior.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> I wish they would have offered me that deal. When I got mine I prepaid three years. No one offered to convert me to lifetime when they started offering it again. But they did give me a deal on lifetime when those three years were up.


I bought 2 of the S3 OLEDs in December 2006 and January 2007 when they had dropped to $600 and they were offering the lifetime "upgrade" for $199 each plus giving a year of free service to the old TiVo that you were upgrading from. This was discussed here on the forum at the time.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=316298

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=315843

I upgraded both of our S1's to S3's at the time as I was concerned that they were never going to offer lifetime again. I certainly paid a lot more for the original S3 at the time (although less than the original $800) but I've been happy with the purchase and both are still working great almost 7 years later.

Scott


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

cram501 said:


> Of course you should expect to receive all channels for the market that align with the cable card specifications.


Great, so no switched digital video channels, then?  I mean, that's a LOT of channels to go missing and it impacts everyone except FIOS users so Tivo had to do something there. But how many users and channels are affected by H.264?



cram501 said:


> Merging code bases can be a pain in the ass but I bet that played a minor role at best in the decision. Planning for the resource allocation, testing, and roll out of the changes were probably much more significant. And I don't really care what hoops they have to jump through to make it happen. That is a risk they take by producing a product for which they offered a lifetime option. The risk I take is that they will continue to support it.


I was including all of that testing and rollout in my assessment as well. We agree that it would be a huge PITA for Tivo with very little return. And you're still with them, correct? So it can't be all that bad. Normally I'd say vote with your wallet, but Tivo already has all the money they're ever going to get from you. Unless you sell the S3 and buy the Roamio, which would fix your situation yet reward Tivo with even more of your money. Tough call. Maybe if you call and complain you can get a discount on the Roamio or its service. That's way easier for Tivo to do than implement a new feature on a 7 year old box.

I also agree that calling it "lifetime service" implies code updates for a long time. Since most people would consider code updates as part of the service. But everyone in this forum knows better. Tivo considers their service to be just the guide data, and if they happen to fix bugs or add features along the way that's a bonus.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

BobCamp1 said:


> ...Tivo considers their service to be just the guide data...


Well, actually the guide data and the ongoing license to use the software they wrote.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

BobCamp1 said:


> Tivo considers their service to be just the guide data, and if they happen to fix bugs or add features along the way that's a bonus.


Not quite. The fee you pay for their service allows the various features in the Tivo software to function. Consider it an ongoing activation fee. You could also compare it to a satellite box. The box may function for free channels but nothing else. You can't get any of the regular channels until you sign up for the satellite service and get the access card activated. Same goes for Tivo. The basic functions will work, but you can't record anything or use any of the Tivo special features.

I used to be able to download guide data for my DirecTivos without having satellite service. I'm not sure if that's still allowable with a standalone Tivo.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Same goes for Tivo. The basic functions will work, but you can't record anything or use any of the Tivo special features.


These days you can't do anything with a TiVo without service. It will tune live TV that's it. It doesn't even buffer the 30 minutes any more.


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> I was including all of that testing and rollout in my assessment as well. We agree that it would be a huge PITA for Tivo with very little return. And you're still with them, correct? So it can't be all that bad. Normally I'd say vote with your wallet, but Tivo already has all the money they're ever going to get from you. Unless you sell the S3 and buy the Roamio, which would fix your situation yet reward Tivo with even more of your money. Tough call. Maybe if you call and complain you can get a discount on the Roamio or its service. That's way easier for Tivo to do than implement a new feature on a 7 year old box.


We agree it could have been a pain in the ass for some programmer sitting in a cube someplace. That's his or her job and not really my concern. I agree there is little return in immediate revenue but it can have an impact on the volume of units you sell of your next product and affect future income. It can also impact the level of frustration users are willing to tolerate.

It's one of the reasons I skipped the Premier. I did buy a Roamio. That was lost income for Tivo.

I never said I was taking my toys and going home. I said it would have an impact on when I bought another unit and what I was willing to spend for it. Tivo hasn't lost me yet but if they continue to ditch products that, in my opinion, still require updates, they may eventually.



BobCamp1 said:


> I also agree that calling it "lifetime service" implies code updates for a long time. Since most people would consider code updates as part of the service. But everyone in this forum knows better. Tivo considers their service to be just the guide data, and if they happen to fix bugs or add features along the way that's a bonus.


My expectations are different than yours. It's your choice to not expect updates, deal with unresolved problems, and pay more money to see if the issue is fixed in the next hardware rev. It's your money.

I don't expect just guide data. My guess is a majority of the population on the forums expect updates and fixes. They may be disappointed.. but the again, see above.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

cram501 said:


> We agree it could have been a pain in the ass for some programmer sitting in a cube someplace. That's his or her job and not really my concern. I agree there is little return in immediate revenue but it can have an impact on the volume of units you sell of your next product and affect future income. It can also impact the level of frustration users are willing to tolerate.
> 
> It's one of the reasons I skipped the Premier. I did buy a Roamio. That was lost income for Tivo.
> 
> ...


Your opinion or my opinion are really irrelevant when it comes to what Tivo should do. Management has a legal responsibility to what ever they believe will result in the maximum return to stock holders. You or I can again have opinions on how to do that when it comes to issues like spending money to update the Series 3 units software or not, however TiVo has significant more data than we do and can and should be adjusting their decisions based on it. Given how well the Roamio DVRs appear to be selling I would think the absolute most TiVo is going to do for Series 3 owners is offer them a deal on some left over or refurbed Series 4 hardware.

In the end we get to vote with our wallets but then so does TiVo and yes there are times when the customer is wrong and/or they are not worth having/retaining.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> It doesn't even buffer the 30 minutes any more.


Incorrect. A while back there was an update for the Premiere which disabled the 30 minute buffers, but I believe that was a mistake because a subsequent update later reinstated them. 
As of now, my unsubscribed Premiere has the 30 minute buffers.

Of course, things might be different for the Roamio line. I don't have one to compare.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

But you lost trickplay, right? So even if you have the buffers you can't skip around in live?


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> But you lost trickplay, right? So even if you have the buffers you can't skip around in live?


No, trickplay still works within the buffer. 
If trickplay didn't work, there would be no need for the 30 minute buffer.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Hmm... could've sworn that I saw they disabled trickplay at some point on unsubbed Premieres.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> Hmm... could've sworn that I saw they disabled trickplay at some point on unsubbed Premieres.


I have an un-sub TP-4 and trick play works within the buffer, that also works. A past update did not allow for the buffer, or the HDUI, the newest update does have both options.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> Hmm... could've sworn that I saw they disabled trickplay at some point on unsubbed Premieres.


They did. I believe it was v14.9.2 that disabled the live buffers. 
I don't remember when they were restored, but I want to say it was within a short time span.
I thought it was a mistake at the time. Why would TiVo disable a marketing tool? It seems you would want that little feature there to give unsubscribed users a taste of what the Tivo interface is all about.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> These days you can't do anything with a TiVo without service. It will tune live TV that's it. It doesn't even buffer the 30 minutes any more.


I forget which models had it, but didn't some of them come with basic service that provides a day or two of guide data and some of the Tivo functions without requiring a contract?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I forget which models had it, but didn't some of them come with basic service that provides a day or two of guide data and some of the Tivo functions without requiring a contract?


Some of the DVD equipped units used this model.


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