# Game of Thrones "The Red Woman" OAD 4/24/16



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Well, that was unsatisfying.  I'm glad it's back, but I wanted to answers to more questions. Well, one specific question I guess.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Yeah, pretty bummed out she didn't do her magic to being Jon Snow back. Maybe next week!

Also, for some reason her necklace makes her more attractive, in my opinion. Maybe just me?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Man, that Red...loses one little battle and she just lets herself go!


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

What happened to the hounds?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

SullyND said:


> What happened to the hounds?


They saw Brienne coming and said "oh crap, I heard what she did to that last hound" and they got the hell out of there.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Nah, the servants must have just tossed out the Myranda meat, and the dogs were racing back for it.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> Yeah, pretty bummed out she didn't do her magic to being Jon Snow back.


I guess we have our answer.

Not a lot going on in this episode, but seems like the season opener is often that way. A lot of reminding us what happened last year.

I have a feeling some pain is about to be brought against those religious guys at King's Landing, and against those traitorous guys at The Wall.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

SullyND said:


> What happened to the hounds?


I had the same thought. Their masters get slaughtered by Brienne and suddenly they're nowhere to be found? Smart dogs.

I was wondering how they were going to make it realistic for Jorah to find Dany's ring in the middle of nowhere. I guess when a horde of horses circle around and leave an untrampled spot in the middle, that makes it kind of obvious.

Why would all the people in Meereen be running away from the burning harbor? It didn't appear the city was in any danger of burning. I thought that was kind of odd.

So Arya just has to endure daily beatings until she can figure out how to fight blind? I hope her story picks up soon.

Still no Bran. I was expecting we'd finally see what he's been up to.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BrettStah said:


> Yeah, pretty bummed out she didn't do her magic to being Jon Snow back. Maybe next week!





smbaker said:


> I guess we have our answer.


??? What answer do we have? That she's an old woman? She's always been an old woman (at least while we've known her); that only proves her magic is real. She just takes off her Necklace of Youth to sleep.

I think the answer is she's lost her confidence. I suspect getting it back and resurrecting Jon will be connected, although I'm not sure which way the cause and effect will go...


DevdogAZ said:


> 7Why would all the people in Meereen be running away from the burning harbor? It didn't appear the city was in any danger of burning. I thought that was kind of odd.


In a pre-modern society, any fire is dangerous, and a fire of that magnitude is profoundly dangerous. There is absolutely nothing anybody can do to stop it.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

There was a scene in some past season where the Red Woman was in a bathtub without her necklace. I think she was talking to Stanis's wife. Continuity?

They really burned down the whole Dorne story. How did the Sand Snakes get on the boat?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

My issue was the Dothraki not knowing who Dany was. Really?!!

But Brienne/Podrick coming to the rescue was pretty awesome! I guess Brienne's is a great teacher! He held his own, for a little while...


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ??? What answer do we have? That she's an old woman? She's always been an old woman (at least while we've known her); that only proves her magic is real. She just takes off her Necklace of Youth to sleep.


I was confused by that. It wasn't clear to me if she really is an old woman or if she had renounced Lord of Light since he pretty much screwed her over regarding Stannis.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> They really burned down the whole Dorne story. How did the Sand Snakes get on the boat?


That was a little unclear, but they must have traveled separately. It often happens in GoT that a lot more time passes than we think, and I think this is one of those times.


gossamer88 said:


> My issue was the Dothraki not knowing who Dany was. Really?!!


Different Dothraki; not Drogo's horde. They knew who she was by reputation, they just had never met her.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

First, I'm so happy this is back!

I'm still holding out for Jon Snow's resurrection. I don't know why I'm in such denial of his death. I never was for anyone else so far. The red woman being old without her necklace thing was very odd indeed. I thought at first she must have had it on in that bath scene but alas no so I'm curious if they messed up or if there is another reason as someone said above. 


Spoiler














Can someone tell me what the Khal said to Dany at the end just after he said that nobody would touch her? Something about sending her to a crypt with the other widows? I meant to go back and watch that again but then hit delete like a dolt.

I was hoping for more Tyrion this episode but nobody tried to kill him so I will call it a win.

I'm one of the few that don't care about Bran nor am I looking forward to his appearance back in the show. I know he's supposed to have a big part to play in all this but I'm just *yawn* about him.

I literally yelled YES!!!!!! when Brienne and Podric showed up. I was even happier when Podric survived. Those two make me very happy and now that she's protecting Sansa I'm really interested to see where this goes. You know it's a good story/acting when I can go from loathing someone as much as I did Theon to reveling in his rescue as much as Sansa's.

Things just got real in Dorne!


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Widows of Khals get sent to Vaes Dothrak with all the other widows.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I'm one of the few that don't care about Bran nor am I looking forward to his appearance back in the show. I know he's supposed to have a big part to play in all this but I'm just *yawn* about him.


Same here, no interest at all in his character or story line, though I suspect he will become a larger factor in the story.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

cherry ghost said:


> Widows of Khals get sent to Vaes Dothrak with all the other widows.


Okay thank you!


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm hoping we get to see that big Frankenstein monster in the Lannister camp kick some serious religious zealot butt soon.

Thank God for the previouslys because I'd forgotten so much since last season.


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## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

Glad to see many people are uninspired with this episode. Lots of holes such as the hounds disappearing as already mentioned, Jorah finding the ring when thousands of Dothraki did not, Davos... you have until nighttime to decide even though we'll kill you anyway which gives marathon runner Edd the chance to Pied Piper to Wildings back just in time, the writers ripping off Shining and Kung Fu and you just know they're going to slow play Jon and Arya's plotlines. Long run on sentence perfect for a standstill episode.

Last season's finale set up what should have been a pretty revealing premiere. Instead, we got the second part of the finale all these months later.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> I'm still holding out for Jon Snow's resurrection. I don't know why I'm in such denial of his death.


There has never been a shred of doubt in my mind that he'll be back. I am utterly convinced that the endgame of all this involves him and Dany.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There has never been a shred of doubt in my mind that he'll be back. I am utterly convinced that the endgame of all this involves him and Dany.


I'm down with that. I love them both. 
Do you think the dragons will like Ghost?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I think it was a good setup episode. As for "The Red Woman" I took it, by her body language, that she's given up on her magic. First she couldn't save Stannis, and now Jon Snow. (Is Snow dead?, I'm thinking so, but like others, there's still SOME doubt...I still say he comes back as a White Walker).

As for Dani, are her dragons completely done? Do Jorah and such come and save her? I too cheered when Brianne kicked Bolton butt. Now she has a purpose again, officially. To me, that's the most interesting "team" right now. Lets see where that leads. Based on previews:



Spoiler



It seems like there maybe be a hookup between Sansa/Brienne and Aria, finally. At least that's how it looked, but it could just be the way it was spliced together



Maybe I'm in the minority, but I was to see what is happening with Bran. I think when it comes down to it, he's going to play a big part in what happens going forward. After all, he started the whole thing way back in season 1.


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I think it was a good setup episode. As for "The Red Woman" I took it, by her body language, that she's given up on her magic. First she couldn't save Stannis, and now Jon Snow.


Interesting. I didn't read it that way at all. I just thought it was a reveal of who she really is and a peek into her "nightly ritual". Guess we'll find out as the season progresses.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

ADG said:


> Interesting.I just thought it was a reveal of who she really is and a peek into her "nightly ritual".


Yes, me too. Though, I'd be happy for them to infer this ritual from here forward.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

ADG said:


> Interesting. I didn't read it that way at all. I just thought it was a reveal of who she really is and a peek into her "nightly ritual". Guess we'll find out as the season progresses.


That's how I read it too. However, if she has given up, it'll be interesting to see what happens once she gets her groove back.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> ... but it could just be the way it was _*spliced *_together....


I can always spot an old-timer when this term is used...(and I AM an old-timer from radio...)


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> First, I'm so happy this is back!
> 
> I'm still holding out for Jon Snow's resurrection. I don't know why I'm in such denial of his death. I never was for anyone else so far. The red woman being old without her necklace thing was very odd indeed. I thought at first she must have had it on in that bath scene but alas no so I'm curious if they messed up or if there is another reason as someone said above.


That some find. I read last night that the necklace is magical. Someone mentioned that it glowed when she was almost poisoned back in season 2(?). That is how she was able to thwart being poisoned.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There has never been a shred of doubt in my mind that he'll be back. I am utterly convinced that the endgame of all this involves him and Dany.


The name of the series is, "A Song of Ice and Fire." I have long thought that was an illusion to either a showdown at the end between Jon (Ice) and Dany (fire) or the White Walkers and the Dragons.


Steveknj said:


> I think it was a good setup episode. As for "The Red Woman" I took it, by her body language, that she's given up on her magic. First she couldn't save Stannis, and now Jon Snow. (Is Snow dead?,


That's how I took it too, she was giving up.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> I can always spot an old-timer when this term is used...(and I AM an old-timer from radio...)


Yep, spliced both film (home movies) and tape (reel to reel) back when I was a kid.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

pendragn said:


> The name of the series is, "A Song of Ice and Fire." I have long thought that was an illusion to either a showdown at the end between Jon (Ice) and Dany (fire) or the White Walkers and the Dragons.


Ice could also be Bran, the lineal King of the North. Jon could also wind up a White Walker and do battle with the Dragons.

Also, I know we have now moved passed the books, but does anyone who've read the books know if the Darthrakian ritual of widows of Khalisi's mentioned in reference to Dani's situation was ever mentioned? I read book one some time ago and can't remember. My son who's read it more recently doesn't remember either. Plus, if this was the case, why wasn't she sent there after Drago died?


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Alternatively, both Ice and Fire could refer to Jon, depending on his true lineage (i.e., Jon is the song of his parents).


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

ADG said:


> Interesting. I didn't read it that way at all. I just thought it was a reveal of who she really is and a peek into her "nightly ritual". Guess we'll find out as the season progresses.


That's how I interpreted it as well. I didn't even see the necklace as being the source of her youth, given that she's been without it before. I saw it as simply her dropping both her physical and magical attire.

My first thought, however, was that she was about to resurrect Jon. And I wondered why Thoros of Myr only had to say a few words, while she had to do this whole naked ritual to make things happen. It made me think that perhaps the Lord of Light was, in fact, a boob man.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

The nitpick that (still) bugs me: Oberon's sand-woman is so outraged by Oberon's death. Nobody ever took her aside and pointed out to her that Oberon _volunteered_ to be in a _fight to the death_?!

The whole Dorne story is driven by this. Somebody spoiler me. Was there a better reason in the books?

Regarding Jon Snow's possible resurrection: There are some _theories_ out there on how he might be resurrected without the Red Woman's help. You can find them on youtube if so inclined.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I personally don't really care what happens to JS. I'm fine with the Watch making him direwolf meat.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

pendragn said:


> The name of the series is, "A Song of Ice and Fire." I have long thought that was an illusion to either a showdown at the end between Jon (Ice) and Dany (fire) or the White Walkers and the Dragons


I've also always felt those 2 characters were going to wind up being the Ice and Fire of the aforementioned title, just not in the way you do, I'm going for them uniting and forming a powerful dynasty.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> But Brienne/Podrick coming to the rescue was pretty awesome!


That was the best part of this episode. It should have been named after her, and not Melisandre, who didn't do anything other than mope and go to bed.

I guess Stannis must be truly dead, given Roose's comments to Ramsey. But I don't know why they didn't actually show him being killed. It's not like they've shied away from showing any other deaths in this series.

And now we have a Martell vs. Lannister vs. Tyrell war, with no side for which to root. Tommen and Loras are the only innocent of that whole bunch who are still alive, so that means their days are probably numbered. Although it would be interesting to see how Tyrion balanced wanting Daenerys on the throne with not wanting to harm Tommen if he were still alive when that day came.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

I thought it was a very good setup episode. It is laying down the framework for the season. 

I love that Brianne and Sansa have finally teamed up (along with Theon, apparently not Reek anymore.)

Cercei was really interesting. She is almost resigned to her fate (which mean Tommelin is probably going to die soon, at least in her mind.)

I found Sir Alister to be, almost, sympathetic. To him, Jon truly betrayed the Night's Watch by bringing their sworn enemy behind the gates. From Sir Alister's POV, Jon is a Traitor and deserved to die. 

I am surprise anyone thinks we were going to see a resolution on Jon this episode. If he comes back (which I still think is possible), then it probably won't happen for at least a few episodes.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Lots of attention payed to the Direwolf last night. Lots. Way more than usual. So that means John warged into the wolf before he died. Now he just has to warg back into a new body. He will be back, no doubt about it.


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## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

tlc said:


> The nitpick that (still) bugs me: Oberon's sand-woman is so outraged by Oberon's death. Nobody ever took her aside and pointed out to her that Oberon _volunteered_ to be in a _fight to the death_?!
> 
> The whole Dorne story is driven by this. Somebody spoiler me. Was there a better reason in the books?
> 
> Regarding Jon Snow's possible resurrection: There are some _theories_ out there on how he might be resurrected without the Red Woman's help. You can find them on youtube if so inclined.


The prince did this last season in Dorne.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

tlc said:


> The nitpick that (still) bugs me: Oberon's sand-woman is so outraged by Oberon's death. Nobody ever took her aside and pointed out to her that Oberon _volunteered_ to be in a _fight to the death_?!


Prince Doran did when Ellaria first approached him angry over his brother's death. He told her that Oberyn had volunteered, and that it was not legally murder. And of course Ellaria knew that already, since she was with Oberyn when he had done it. But she doesn't care about the legality or morality of his death; she simply wants revenge for it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dianebrat said:


> I've also always felt those 2 characters were going to wind up being the Ice and Fire of the aforementioned title, just not in the way you do, I'm going for them uniting and forming a powerful dynasty.


Exactly how I see it. Fire and Ice teaming up to save the world.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

smbaker said:


> I guess we have our answer.
> 
> Not a lot going on in this episode, but seems like the season opener is often that way. A lot of reminding us what happened last year.


I guess because I have read the books, that for me a couple of storylines felt like they moved forward this episode because they are completely divorced from the book versions of the characters in question. So for me I felt like some progress was made.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> There was a scene in some past season where the Red Woman was in a bathtub without her necklace. I think she was talking to Stanis's wife. Continuity?
> 
> They really burned down the whole Dorne story. How did the Sand Snakes get on the boat?


The necklace may not have been what was maintaining the illusion. Perhaps with the loss of her faith she has lost the will to maintain her appearance.

Although I'll grant the way the scene was shot would cause one to think it was the removal of the necklace, and if that is what they went for then yeah it is a continuity error.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Good start. Can't have all the answers in the first episide.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I personally don't really care what happens to JS. I'm fine with the Watch making him direwolf meat.


Me too. I hope he's dead.

You got stabbed a ton of times, you bled out. It's over. However, when the Woman in Red (young version) took off her top it did get a rise out of me. So perhaps there's hope for young Mr. Snow.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> I guess Stannis must be truly dead, given Roose's comments to Ramsey. But I don't know why they didn't actually show him being killed. It's not like they've shied away from showing any other deaths in this series.


I didn't think there was any doubt about Stannis. We saw Brianne kill him (in the name of his brother Renly) at the end of last season.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> We saw Brianne kill him (in the name of his brother Renly) at the end of last season.


We saw the lead up and the swing, but we didn't actually see the blade hit Stannis. Which apparently some people took to somehow mean that maybe she didn't actually kill him. Don't ask me why anyone questioned it, but some did.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> We saw the lead up and the swing, but we didn't actually see the blade hit Stannis. Which apparently some people took to somehow mean that maybe she didn't actually kill him. Don't ask me why anyone questioned it, but some did.


Perhaps the Red Woman brings him back too. I mean why not?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

tlc said:


> The nitpick that (still) bugs me: Oberon's sand-woman is so outraged by Oberon's death. Nobody ever took her aside and pointed out to her that Oberon _volunteered_ to be in a _fight to the death_?!


I'm pretty sure that was mentioned to her, which is why the King wasn't outraged. She didn't care.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There has never been a shred of doubt in my mind that he'll be back. I am utterly convinced that the endgame of all this involves him and Dany.


Yep.



ADG said:


> Interesting. I didn't read it that way at all. I just thought it was a reveal of who she really is and a peek into her "nightly ritual". Guess we'll find out as the season progresses.


That's what I thought, too.



dianebrat said:


> I've also always felt those 2 characters were going to wind up being the Ice and Fire of the aforementioned title, just not in the way you do, I'm going for them uniting and forming a powerful dynasty.


I hope so. I love them both, I'd hate to have to choose sides.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> They really burned down the whole Dorne story. How did the Sand Snakes get on the boat?


I was a little confused on this as well. When Jamie and Myrcella sailed away at the end of last season and then we saw Elleria on the dock drink the antidote, all three Sand Snakes were with her on the dock. So clearly they were smuggled away on the ship as it left Dorne. Was Tristane on the boat or was he somewhere else? Did the Sand Snakes travel up to King's Landing and then sneak onto the boat after it was moored in the harbor?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> We saw the lead up and the swing, but we didn't actually see the blade hit Stannis. Which apparently some people took to somehow mean that maybe she didn't actually kill him. Don't ask me why anyone questioned it, but some did.


People read too much into these things. They had a more dramatic camera angle showing Brianne rather than Stannis when the fatal blow hit.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ??? What answer do we have?


Dude is dead. The dragged his corpse indoors, set him on a table, and he didn't pop back up. Nobody tried to res him.

Sure, there are entities in the GoT universe that seem to be able to bring the dead back to life, but this is generally a series that loves to kill off primary characters. It's going to feel like a cheat to me if they bring him back after they stabbed the **** out of him last season.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

morac said:


> I'm pretty sure that was mentioned to her, which is why the King wasn't outraged. She didn't care.


She's a snake. She only knows how to poison, bite and kill.

I'm strangely attracted to the snake people. I did love their dad.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I was a little confused on this as well. When Jamie and Myrcella sailed away at the end of last season and then we saw Elleria on the dock drink the antidote, all three Sand Snakes were with her on the dock. So clearly they were smuggled away on the ship as it left Dorne. Was Tristane on the boat or was he somewhere else? Did the Sand Snakes travel up to King's Landing and then sneak onto the boat after it was moored in the harbor?


I'm confused.

What has y'all confused? The Sand Snakes have been at Dorne for a while, right? Did I miss that they were somewhere else on last night's show?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Did Tristane leave with Jamie, Myrcella, and travel to King's Landing with them?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

smbaker said:


> Dude is dead. The dragged his corpse indoors, set him on a table, and he didn't pop back up. Nobody tried to res him.
> 
> Sure, there are entities in the GoT universe that seem to be able to bring the dead back to life, but this is generally a series that loves to kill off primary characters. It's going to feel like a cheat to me if they bring him back after they stabbed the **** out of him last season.


If it were just some random character, I'd agree. But the whole series has been building to the importance of Jon Snow in the impending war with the White Walkers and there have been many hints dropped about his true lineage. It would be phenomenally bad storytelling if his story just ends here with no payoff to any of that prior stuff.



uncdrew said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> What has y'all confused? The Sand Snakes have been at Dorne for a while, right? Did I miss that they were somewhere else on last night's show?


The room where the Sand Snakes confronted and killed Tristane appeared to be on a ship based on the windows. I don't remember if Tristane was on the ship with Myrcella and Jamie at the end of last season or not, but it makes sense that he would have been. If so, then that means the Sand Snakes somehow got from Dorne to King's Landing and snuck on board the boat while it was moored in the harbor.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> If it were just some random character, I'd agree. But the whole series has been building to the importance of Jon Snow in the impending war with the White Walkers and there have been many hints dropped about his true lineage. It would be phenomenally bad storytelling if his story just ends here with no payoff to any of that prior stuff.
> 
> The room where the Sand Snakes confronted and killed Tristane appeared to be on a ship based on the windows. I don't remember if Tristane was on the ship with Myrcella and Jamie at the end of last season or not, but it makes sense that he would have been. If so, then that means the Sand Snakes somehow got from Dorne to King's Landing and snuck on board the boat while it was moored in the harbor.


Got it, thank you. It was a cramped room with short ceilings and not many windows. However, I personally never thought it was on a ship.

Do we know the two sisters who killed him were there with her mom? I can't keep the SSS (Sand Snake Sisters) apart.

But the Snakettes couldn't have been on the ship with Jaime. Right? He would have confronted them immediately about killing his daughter, and a fight would have ensued. And of course had they killed the boy Prince on the ship he'd have known about it. Did he ever mention that to his lover-sister?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> If it were just some random character, I'd agree. But the whole series has been building to the importance of Jon Snow in the impending war with the White Walkers and there have been many hints dropped about his true lineage.


People felt similarly about the importance of Ned Stark and Robb Stark.

Granted, Jon Snow has been around a longer time, but given the history of this series, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he was killed. The only person in the series that I'm willing to conclude won't be killed (at least not until the very end) is Dany. 'cuz those dragons are going to be needed.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> If it were just some random character, I'd agree. But the whole series has been building to the importance of Jon Snow in the impending war with the White Walkers and there have been many hints dropped about his true lineage. It would be phenomenally bad storytelling if his story just ends here with no payoff to any of that prior stuff.


I don't see how Jon Snow is any different than any of the other main characters that had their importance built up until they were suddenly killed (Ed Stark, Robb Stark, etc). What makes Jon snow any more special than any of the others? Is it because there are so few left now? There's still Bran and his brother.



DevdogAZ said:


> The room where the Sand Snakes confronted and killed Tristane appeared to be on a ship based on the windows. I don't remember if Tristane was on the ship with Myrcella and Jamie at the end of last season or not, but it makes sense that he would have been. If so, then that means the Sand Snakes somehow got from Dorne to King's Landing and snuck on board the boat while it was moored in the harbor.


I don't think it was a ship because Tristane didn't seem surprised to see the Snakes and told them he wasn't hungry. That would be an odd thing to say if he was on a ship docked at Kings Landing.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

morac said:


> I don't see how Jon Snow is any different than any of the other main characters that had their importance built up until they were suddenly killed (Ed Stark, Robb Stark, etc). What makes Jon snow any more special than any of the others? Is it because there are so few left now? There's still Bran and his brother.


It's mainly because his arc isn't finished. The stories of Ned and Robb had their beginnings, middles, and ends. Jon's is still in the middle.


morac said:


> I don't think it was a ship because Tristane didn't seem surprised to see the Snakes and told them he wasn't hungry. That would be an odd thing to say if he was on a ship docked at Kings Landing.


Didn't they go from an establishing shot of the ship in the harbor to an interior of Tristane and the Snakes? When I was watching, there wasn't any doubt in my mind that they were on the ship...


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> If it were just some random character, I'd agree. But the whole series has been building to the importance of Jon Snow in the impending war with the White Walkers and there have been many hints dropped about his true lineage. It would be phenomenally bad storytelling if his story just ends here with no payoff to any of that prior stuff.


You mentioned there are rumors about his lineage, but where did these rumors come from? From Martin himself? From HBO producers? Or from random fanboy speculation (including fanboy websites). I'm betting it's the latter. I don't recall Martin every saying any of this (and I would not put it past him to throw a red herring our way either). I've heard the rumors too, but I think they are just that.....rumors.

I think a lot of folks just don't want to let go. They've seen too many characters they love bite it to just do that. Do I think Snow will be resurrected? I'd say it's at most 50/50 at this point.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

morac said:


> I don't think it was a ship because Tristane didn't seem surprised to see the Snakes and told them he wasn't hungry.


I thought the "I'm not Hungry" comment was because he didn't know who was at his door.



Steveknj said:


> Do I think Snow will be resurrected? I'd say it's at most 50/50 at this point.


+1. I wouldn't rule it out, anything can happen in this series.

Saying that Robb was at the end of his arc is easy in hindsight. At the time, I thought he was just stopping off for a wedding, on his way to conquer Casterly Rock. The red wedding took me totally by surprise.

Jon Snow's purpose in this series could have been to save the Wildlings, and now that he's done that, he has been retired.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jon's parentage has been much discussed in books and show, but never revealed.

I would say the return of Jon Snow in one form or another is about as close to 100% as it can get. But we shall see!


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

When T picked the one sister, my immediate thought was he should whirl around and take out the other sister straight away. But only GoT could have a skull stabbing offer some comic relief.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Also, I know we have now moved passed the books, but does anyone who've read the books know if the Darthrakian ritual of widows of Khalisi's mentioned in reference to Dani's situation was ever mentioned? I read book one some time ago and can't remember. My son who's read it more recently doesn't remember either. Plus, if this was the case, why wasn't she sent there after Drago died?


When a Khal dies, his widow goes to live at Vaes Dothrak, which is the central (and only) Dothraki city. The widows (known as the Dosh Khaleen) are the sole permanent residents of Vaes Dothrak (along with their servants). The other Dothraki return to Vaes Dothrak occasionally, but are generally nomadic.

We see the Dosh Khaleen during season one of the show. They are the ones who have Dany eat the horse's heart and approve her marriage to Drogo.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Back in Season 1, the Khal would have listened to the speech by Daenerys after ripping her dress off, not before - maybe they fired Adam Freeburg


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's mainly because his arc isn't finished. The stories of Ned and Robb had their beginnings, middles, and ends. Jon's is still in the middle.


Ned and Robb only had an end because they died. Robb was in the middle of a war with the Lanisters, that again only ended because Robb was killed.

Again I don't see any difference with Jon.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Jon's parentage has been much discussed in books and show, but never revealed.
> 
> I would say the return of Jon Snow in one form or another is about as close to 100% as it can get. But we shall see!


Much discussed but never revealed leads to speculation as to what it might be. But as you said, never revealed. And since we are past the books, then who knows? Maybe Martin had his planned to be killed off and maybe he becomes a martyr, or his connections to his family tree are used another way?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

getbak said:


> When a Khal dies, his widow goes to live at Vaes Dothrak, which is the central (and only) Dothraki city. The widows (known as the Dosh Khaleen) are the sole permanent residents of Vaes Dothrak (along with their servants). The other Dothraki return to Vaes Dothrak occasionally, but are generally nomadic.
> 
> We see the Dosh Khaleen during season one of the show. They are the ones who have Dany eat the horse's heart and approve her marriage to Drogo.


So this was talked about in the books? I'm guessing yes. I wonder then, why Dani wasn't sent there after Drogo died, but I guess it has to do with her dragons and they were too scared


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> You mentioned there are rumors about his lineage, but where did these rumors come from? From Martin himself? From HBO producers? Or from random fanboy speculation (including fanboy websites). I'm betting it's the latter. I don't recall Martin every saying any of this (and I would not put it past him to throw a red herring our way either). I've heard the rumors too, but I think they are just that.....rumors.
> 
> I think a lot of folks just don't want to let go. They've seen too many characters they love bite it to just do that. Do I think Snow will be resurrected? I'd say it's at most 50/50 at this point.


There have been hints in the show, and some folks who are show only watchers have picked up on them.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> When T picked the one sister, my immediate thought was he should whirl around and take out the other sister straight away. But only GoT could have a skull stabbing offer some comic relief.


He was stupid. The smart thing to do would have been "picking" by simply lunging at the closest sister and killing her, then facing off against the remaining sister. But he was "honorable", which does not turn out well for GoT characters.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

smbaker said:


> People felt similarly about the importance of Ned Stark and Robb Stark.
> 
> Granted, Jon Snow has been around a longer time, but given the history of this series, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he was killed. The only person in the series that I'm willing to conclude won't be killed (at least not until the very end) is Dany. 'cuz those dragons are going to be needed.





morac said:


> I don't see how Jon Snow is any different than any of the other main characters that had their importance built up until they were suddenly killed (Ed Stark, Robb Stark, etc). What makes Jon snow any more special than any of the others? Is it because there are so few left now? There's still Bran and his brother.


I haven't read the books so what I know is only third hand, but apparently the subtext in the books is pretty strong hinting that Jon Snow's parents are:



Spoiler



Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. This would mean he is a Targaryen and is Daenerys' nephew, and therefore has some claim to the Iron Throne which was stolen when Robert Baratheon overthrew the Aerys Targaryen. More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R+L=J_Theory



In the show, this was very strongly hinted at when Littlefinger and Sansa had a conversation in the crypt at Winterfell.

Also, it has been widely reported that when Weiss and Benioff were trying to get the series greenlit and were discussing the possibility with George R.R. Martin, he asked them a question:



Spoiler



Who is Jon Snow's mother?



And the way they answered that question provided GRRM with the comfort level that they were true fans and recognized the intended direction of the story.

Bottom line: Why would GRRM put in all the backstory and hints that have led to this widely-accepted theory, but then have nothing come from it?



zordude said:


> Back in Season 1, the Khal would have listened to the speech by Daenerys after ripping her dress off, not before - maybe they fired Adam Freeburg


:up:


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

morac said:


> Ned and Robb only had an end because they died. Robb was in the middle of a war with the Lanisters, that again only ended because Robb was killed.
> 
> Again I don't see any difference with Jon.


Robb's story was the war in the south.

The show, from the first scene, has been about the impending war with the WW. Jon has been central to that. Without Jon there is no one to focus on that story.

If you look at the major plotpoints, there are three areas of focus. Dany is the focus of Meereen and Essos stories, The Lannisters are the focus of everything happening in South Westoros, and Jon is the focus on what is going on in the north.

Plus, there have been hints along the way about Jon's past and future. In the show, and of course in the books.

Thoros of Myr, who worships the same god as Melisandre, is able to bring back the recently deceased. Seen in the show

Melisandre sees something in Jon that she won't let him in on - what could it be

There have been hints about Jon's parentage. Except Jon was not referenced. It involved other deceased characters and would take a sharp eye to notice if you did not have any prior knowledge, but the scenes are there in the show.

So yeah, it could all be bunk, but if you have years of some sort of slow building reveal, it would be a cheap trick indeed to quickly remove the person the slow build appeared to be pointing to.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> So this was talked about in the books? I'm guessing yes. I wonder then, why Dani wasn't sent there after Drogo died, but I guess it has to do with her dragons and they were too scared


She didn't go there because the remaining Dothraki saw the dragons and believed she was special. They were also the weak, the old, and the infirmed. The rest of Khal Drogos Khal abandoned him after his 'conversion'.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> I haven't read the books so what I know is only third hand, but apparently the subtext in the books is pretty strong hinting that Jon Snow's parents are:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL, I at least tried not to be so upfront about it, but there it is.

If you go by just the show, the hints are there also.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I thought it was fitting that the showrunners put a knife through the heart of the slow and boring Dorne plot.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> There have been hints in the show, and some folks who are show only watchers have picked up on them.


I'd say him being stiff as a board the last episode is a pretty good hint he won't be resurrected too 

Would it surprise me if he was reborn, no. Would it surprise me if he was dead as a doornail, no. That's why I think it's 50/50. It's also possible he's "undead", i.e a White Walker.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

He's coming back. Without him, there's no point of view character for the events taking place at the Wall, arguably the most important location in the story going forward.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I haven't read the books so what I know is only third hand, but apparently the subtext in the books is pretty strong hinting that Jon Snow's parents are:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reading the website linked, it reads like a Kennedy conspiracy theory, or about two dozen Lost theories that never panned out. You may all be right, but I'm skeptical.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Another thing to consider with the potential revival of Jon Snow: His vows to the Night's Watch were 'til death, and we saw last season that he was conflicted about whether to remain with the Watch or go south to pursue more pressing business, but ultimately he remained loyal to his vows. But now he's dead, so his vows have been fulfilled. When he is brought back, he'll no longer have to worry about his duty to the Watch and that will free him up to head south and play a larger role in the ultimate resolution of the story.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I thought it was fitting that the showrunners put a knife through the heart of the slow and boring Dorne plot.


Same here. I think I said out loud "There goes 300 useless pages of the books". One thing I love about this show, they have been ruthless about cutting out the fat and making story lines follow a cleaner, more straight-forward, path.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mostman said:


> Same here. I think I said out loud "There goes 300 useless pages of the books". One thing I love about this show, they have been ruthless about cutting out the fat and making story lines follow a cleaner, more straight-forward, path.


They don't have any choice. If they were to remain completely faithful to the books, they'd have to have 20+ episodes per season, which just isn't practical.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> He's coming back. Without him, there's no point of view character for the events taking place at the Wall, arguably the most important location in the story going forward.


Why not? This could the genesis of the final battle between those beyond the wall and those who are part of the Seven Kingdoms. Snow's part in this is that his death is what brings it on. And once Wall is breached, so too can the Seven Kingdoms, the whole set of alliances etc. And with the Wall breached, here comes the White Walkers and the battle between Fire and Ice. You don't need Jon Snow alive for ANY of that to happen, but you needed him, up until that point to create the scenario described above. Without his alliance with those outside the wall, none of this happens.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Jon's parentage has been much discussed in books and show, but never revealed.
> 
> I would say the return of Jon Snow in one form or another is about as close to 100% as it can get. But we shall see!


We shall see is right! I've have not read the books, but the hints from the show, which I admit were not plainly obvious the first time, points to his lineage.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Another thing to consider with the potential revival of Jon Snow: His vows to the Night's Watch were 'til death, and we saw last season that he was conflicted about whether to remain with the Watch or go south to pursue more pressing business, but ultimately he remained loyal to his vows. But now he's dead, so his vows have been fulfilled. When he is brought back, he'll no longer have to worry about his duty to the Watch and that will free him up to head south and play a larger role in the ultimate resolution of the story.


If he's brought back, he's alive, wouldn't his vows still hold? After all, he's not dead is he?


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> I'd say him being stiff as a board the last episode is a pretty good hint he won't be resurrected too .


I was thinking exactly the opposite; that perhaps the idea that it was so cold he might be partially frozen, reducing his blood loss, making it easier to revive him.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Dawghows said:


> I was thinking exactly the opposite; that perhaps the fact that it was so cold he might be partially frozen, reducing his blood loss, making it easier to revive him.


I mean stiff as a board...meaning Rigor mortis  The blood was flowing despite the cold, so I don't think he's being preserved by being frozen.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Why not? This could the genesis of the final battle between those beyond the wall and those who are part of the Seven Kingdoms. Snow's part in this is that his death is what brings it on. And once Wall is breached, so too can the Seven Kingdoms, the whole set of alliances etc. And with the Wall breached, here comes the White Walkers and the battle between Fire and Ice. You don't need Jon Snow alive for ANY of that to happen, but you needed him, up until that point to create the scenario described above. Without his alliance with those outside the wall, none of this happens.


You have to recognize how the books are structured. They aren't written from the viewpoint of an unseen, all knowing narrator. Each chapter is written from the first-person point of view of one of the characters. So essentially what we know about Dany's story has been told from her POV, What we know about Tyrion's story has been told from his POV, etc. So if Jon Snow doesn't return, then we've got a very large plot point (the impending attack of the Wall by the White Walkers) and no main (POV) characters at the Wall that can "tell" the story. Sure, they could suddenly have a character like Aliser Thorne become a POV character and "tell" the story through his POV, but I think it would be unusual to add a main POV character this late in the game.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> If he's brought back, he's alive, wouldn't his vows still hold? After all, he's not dead is he?


Depends on whether he was killed and then resurrected, or whether he was just revived and was never dead in the first place. I'm guessing it will be the former.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> If he's brought back, he's alive, wouldn't his vows still hold? After all, he's not dead is he?


But he was dead in between. Once he's dead, he's released from the vow.

Reanimation is a circumstance the people who wrote the vow never considered. THE FOOLS!


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> You have to recognize how the books are structured. They aren't written from the viewpoint of an unseen, all knowing narrator. Each chapter is written from the first-person point of view of one of the characters. So essentially what we know about Dany's story has been told from her POV, What we know about Tyrion's story has been told from his POV, etc. So if Jon Snow doesn't return, then we've got a very large plot point (the impending attack of the Wall by the White Walkers) and no main (POV) characters at the Wall that can "tell" the story. Sure, they could suddenly have a character like Aliser Thorne become a POV character and "tell" the story through his POV, but I think it would be unusual to add a main POV character this late in the game.


But the TV show is not structured that way. And you could use other characters to take this over, like Bran who lurks near there (remember his story is supposed to be big this season). In one scenario, he could come to the Wall, see that his brother was murdered and go from there, or even that Davos meets up with him and they attack the wall from the south. There are a LOT of scenarios that don't include Jon Snow that could work here.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But he was dead in between. Once he's dead, he's released from the vow.
> 
> Reanimation is a circumstance the people who wrote the vow never considered. THE FOOLS!


I HATE loopholes!!


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

If, like Thoros, Mellasandre is capable of reviving the dead, then I think there's still plenty of time.

Regarding that, something from the book that didn't happen in the show, but still could I suppose.


Spoiler



In the book, Thoros brought back Catelin Stark after she'd been dead for days.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Another thing to consider with the potential revival of Jon Snow: His vows to the Night's Watch were 'til death, and we saw last season that he was conflicted about whether to remain with the Watch or go south to pursue more pressing business, but ultimately he remained loyal to his vows. But now he's dead, so his vows have been fulfilled. When he is brought back, he'll no longer have to worry about his duty to the Watch and that will free him up to head south and play a larger role in the ultimate resolution of the story.


That's a lot of effort to break a contract. Sheesh.


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

Could someone please refresh my memory about Dani.

I remember last season there was an event in a large open coliseum which I think was the fighting that Dani initially had banned but then relented and let it go on. Then a bunch of people in golden masks came in trying to kill her. Her old protector (Jorah?) threw a javelin seemingly at her but it was to kill an attacker. But there were too many masked bad guys, then her dragon comes and flamed out a lot of the bad guys and Dani hopped on top of the dragon and they flew away.

But then my memory gets hazy. Did they land somewhere and did the dragon abandon Dani? How did she get captured and why didn't she speak to them in their language and tell them who she was.

So I don't remember what happened from when the dragon and Dani flew away until the new season opens with her hands tied up and being tormented by her captors.

Thanks,
Gerry


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> But the TV show is not structured that way. And you could use other characters to take this over, like Bran who lurks near there (remember his story is supposed to be big this season). In one scenario, he could come to the Wall, see that his brother was murdered and go from there, or even that Davos meets up with him and they attack the wall from the south. There are a LOT of scenarios that don't include Jon Snow that could work here.


But it has to fit the yet to be written book.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But he was dead in between. Once he's dead, he's released from the vow.


Unless he is just mostly dead.

Have fun storming the wall!


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> But it has to fit the yet to be written book.


Why?

From what I've read, the book and shows will diverge. I believe they'll have the same end-game (assuming GRRM actually finishes all the books), but how they get there will be different.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Gerryex said:


> But then my memory gets hazy. Did they land somewhere and did the dragon abandon Dani? How did she get captured and why didn't she speak to them in their language and tell them who she was.
> 
> So I don't remember what happened from when the dragon and Dani flew away until the new season opens with her hands tied up and being tormented by her captors.


Not much really happened. The dragon landed to lick its wounds. Dani got bored and wandered off and was captured. This only took a few minutes on the show.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Got it, thank you. It was a cramped room with short ceilings and not many windows. However, I personally never thought it was on a ship.
> 
> Do we know the two sisters who killed him were there with her mom? I can't keep the SSS (Sand Snake Sisters) apart.
> 
> But the Snakettes couldn't have been on the ship with Jaime. Right? He would have confronted them immediately about killing his daughter, and a fight would have ensued. And of course had they killed the boy Prince on the ship he'd have known about it. Did he ever mention that to his lover-sister?





morac said:


> I don't think it was a ship because Tristane didn't seem surprised to see the Snakes and told them he wasn't hungry. That would be an odd thing to say if he was on a ship docked at Kings Landing.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Didn't they go from an establishing shot of the ship in the harbor to an interior of Tristane and the Snakes? When I was watching, there wasn't any doubt in my mind that they were on the ship...


I just rewatched this scene, and it definitely started with an establishing shot of the boat that brought Jamie and Myrcella's corpse back to King's Landing. And then it cut to Tristane painting the rocks to be put on her eyes, so he's definitely aware of her death. And then as you see the interior of the room, it's definitely a cabin on a ship.

So I guess again the question is how/when did the Sand Snakes get on board the boat?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> I just rewatched this scene, and it definitely started with an establishing shot of the boat that brought Jamie and Myrcella's corpse back to King's Landing. And then it cut to Tristane painting the rocks to be put on her eyes, so he's definitely aware of her death. And then as you see the interior of the room, it's definitely a cabin on a ship.
> 
> So I guess again the question is how/when did the Sand Snakes get on board the boat?


Also rewatched and you're right. I think the goal is for the sandsnakes to use the prince of dorne and his son's deaths to get the people of dorne behind them.

So now it becomes sloppy writing. Did the two SS's sail on a different boat a day behind Jaime and gang, or traveled quickly by land? They didn't stow away because they were on the dock at the end of last season.


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## minimeh (Jun 20, 2011)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> But only GoT could have a skull stabbing offer some comic relief.


Ah, evidently not a Walking Dead fan.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

morac said:


> Why? From what I've read, the book and shows will diverge. I believe they'll have the same end-game (assuming GRRM actually finishes all the books), but how they get there will be different.


No one knows that other than Martin himself (if he even knows).


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

Gerryex said:


> Could someone please refresh my memory about Dani.
> 
> I remember last season there was an event in a large open coliseum which I think was the fighting that Dani initially had banned but then relented and let it go on. Then a bunch of people in golden masks came in trying to kill her. Her old protector (Jorah?) threw a javelin seemingly at her but it was to kill an attacker. But there were too many masked bad guys, then her dragon comes and flamed out a lot of the bad guys and Dani hopped on top of the dragon and they flew away.
> 
> ...


Dani and Drogon (The Dragon) had a nice lunch togethor and Drogon decided to take a nap. While Drogon was napping Dani went for a walk and then was surrounded and captured by the Dothraki. Just before here capture Dani drops her wedding ring.

I am sure Drogon will eventually got off his fat dragon butt and go looking for Dani.


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## markbox (May 3, 2004)

wedgecon said:


> Dani and Drogon (The Dragon) had a nice lunch togethor and Drogon decided to take a nap. While Drogon was napping Dani went for a walk and then was surrounded and captured by the Dothraki. Just before here capture Dani drops her wedding ring.
> 
> I am sure Drogon will eventually got off his fat dragon butt and go looking for Dani.


I re-watched the last 3 episodes of last season via HBO on Demand to remind myself of events. Great great episodes BTW. Drogon is pretty badly injured and needs to rest to recover. Danny tries to get Drogon to take her back to Meereen (sp) with no success. She climbs on his back and he knocks her off. Danny decides she needs to start back to the city without Drogon and ends up captured.

As far as Jon Snow, he's dead Jim! That does not mean he won't walk again. I believe he will and that it will have something to do with the Lord of Light.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

markbox said:


> As far as Jon Snow, he's dead Jim! That does not mean he won't walk again. I believe he will and that it will have something to do with the Lord of Light.


Note that last season, Tyrion saw the one woman preaching about the Lord of Light in Volantis and in this episode, he sees another man preaching about the Lord of Light.

Coincidence?
I think not.


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## AeneaGames (May 2, 2009)

DreadPirateRob said:


> He's coming back. Without him, there's no point of view character for the events taking place at the Wall, arguably the most important location in the story going forward.


Isn't Sansa going there 'cos she was told Jon is there?

Problem solved! 

Though I still think Jon Snow will be back somehow...


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> But it has to fit the yet to be written book.


Which of course we know nothing about (except the aforementioned fanboy rumor mill).


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> No one knows that other than Martin himself (if he even knows).


I wonder how much Martin actually shared with the HBO team? I know that they want the end game the same, but did they give the HBO guys free reign as to how it gets there, or do they have to follow some strict roadmap to get there?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

JYoung said:


> Note that last season, Tyrion saw the one woman preaching about the Lord of Light in Volantis and in this episode, he sees another man preaching about the Lord of Light.
> 
> Coincidence?
> I think not.


Don't kill me, but Tyrion's lineage is another theory out there. And the scene of the Red Priestess in Volantis has added to that theory. That is all I'm going to say...for now...


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> Don't kill me, but Tyrion's lineage is another theory out there.


I've seen that one and consider it to be the most unlikely of all. No way.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> Also rewatched and you're right. I think the goal is for the sandsnakes to use the prince of dorne and his son's deaths to get the people of dorne behind them.
> 
> So now it becomes sloppy writing. Did the two SS's sail on a different boat a day behind Jaime and gang, or traveled quickly by land? They didn't stow away because they were on the dock at the end of last season.


That's potentially ridiculously sloppy writing.

Hmm...

We're sure it's the same sisters from the dock? Aren't their a litter of them?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> We're sure it's the same sisters from the dock? Aren't their a litter of them?


Definitely two of the sisters from the dock. They are very recognizable, at least to me. These were Pixie-Hair Snake and Eurasian Snake. I guess Whale Rider Snake stayed behind.

I think it's just another patented Game of Thrones time jump. They do that all the time...go from one place to another without indicating how much time had to pass to get there. The sisters just followed the ship to King's Landing.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Definitely two of the sisters from the dock. They are very recognizable, at least to me. These were Pixie-Hair Snake and Eurasian Snake. I guess Whale Rider Snake stayed behind.


Whale Rider Snake was the one that killed him. Eurasian Snake was the one with the whip he intended to fight. Pixie-Hair Snake was with Mama Snake in Dorne.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> We saw the lead up and the swing, but we didn't actually see the blade hit Stannis. Which apparently some people took to somehow mean that maybe she didn't actually kill him. Don't ask me why anyone questioned it, but some did.


For me, it wasn't just that. I had remembered Melisandre telling Stannis that she had seen him walking among burning Bolton banners at Winterfell. I thought that perhaps her vision would come true, but she had interpreted it wrong. She had thought it meant that Stannis would defeat the Boltons, but instead perhaps Stannis would end up there as the Boltons' prisoner when a different army (the Vale, the Free Folk, White Walkers, or some other group) defeated them or as part of that other army himself.

I thought that maybe just before Brienne struck Stannis, Podrick would come running up, and interrupt her, telling her that he had seen the candle that Sansa had lit at Winterfell. Brienne would then keep Stannis alive in order to use him to get into Winterfell. She might then decide to turn him in as a prisoner, or, if she found out that Sansa had escaped beforehand, she might keep him alive, hoping that he might be useful in the future for taking Winterfell back from the Boltons.

As it turned out, however, I had remembered wrong. Melisandre had said she had seen herself walking among those burning banners, not Stannis.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ClutchBrake said:


> Whale Rider Snake was the one that killed him. Eurasian Snake was the one with the whip he intended to fight. Pixie-Hair Snake was with Mama Snake in Dorne.


Oops, my memory isn't what it used to be, even when it comes to beautiful women.

They say the memory is the second thing to go, after...after...um...


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Mama snake...LOL!

I usually re-watch on the weekend. Now you all are getting me to re-watch tonight!


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

ADG said:


> Interesting. I didn't read it that way at all. I just thought it was a reveal of who she really is and a peek into her "nightly ritual". Guess we'll find out as the season progresses.


My take on it was that she had lost her faith. Removing the necklace was not necessarily directly tied to her looks -- perhaps it was more symbolic as to how she viewed herself right then and there -- and old, defeated hag who just wanted to lie down and die.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

How did Sansa and Theon survive the jump?


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

wprager said:


> How did Sansa and Theon survive the jump?


Fluffy snow.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

They landed in a huge snow bank.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Jon Snow still knows nothing... but I can assure you his character is far from being done.

Nobody upset that the Dothraki are suddenly the cast of Seinfeld talking about their top 5 lists? Come on, what is this nonsense?

What is the plan for Petyr Baelish now that the Bolton's won? From what I remember he was going to wait for the battle to end, then team up with the Lannisters to take over Winterfell. 

Good set-up for what is sure to be a battle filled, action packed season.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Surprised no mention of the comedy routine performed by Khal Moro and two of his bloodriders. It had me giggling.

Moro: "Seeing a beautiful woman naked for the first time... what is better than that?"
BR1: "Killing another Khal"
Moro: "..."
Moro: "Yes, killing another Khal."
BR2: "Conquering another city and taking her people slaves."
BR1: "Breaking a wild horse, forcing it to submit to your will."
Moro: "....."
Moro: "....."
Moro: "Seeing a beautiful woman naked for the first time in among the five best things in life."

ETA: I was looking up the exact dialogue while nickels posted his complaint.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I loved that bit with the Dothraki. Could have totally been a Monty Python sketch. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see SNL take that premise and balloon it into something absurd in their next new episode. They could call it "Literal Hypotheticals"


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Not sure why anyone would be upset about that though. Are the Dothraki supposed to be humorless?


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I wonder how much Martin actually shared with the HBO team? I know that they want the end game the same, but did they give the HBO guys free reign as to how it gets there, or do they have to follow some strict roadmap to get there?


There's already differences between the books and the TV show. From what I've heard Martin is basically taking a hands off approach to the show.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> Not sure why anyone would be upset about that though. Are the Dothraki supposed to be humorless?


I agree that nobody should be upset about that exchange. But I didn't see it as the Dothraki making a joke. I saw it as them not understanding the concept of a rhetorical question so they answered the question literally, which frustrated the Khal so he simply changed his rhetorical to make it top five.

It was humorous to the viewer, but not to the participants in the scene.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

morac said:


> There's already differences between the books and the TV show. From what I've heard Martin is basically taking a hands off approach to the show.


Although there's a difference between being different because they think it will help them streamline the story they way they want to, and being different because they simply don't know what Martin will do. And we can't really know which it is (unless somebody squeals). To a degree, it will depend on how thorough Martin's briefing was. We know he knows where it was all heading, but we also have pretty good evidence (i.e., the books) that he's not sure how he's going to get there. And we also don't know if his knowledge of the ending is a relatively detailed arrangement of converging storylines, or a Lost-like "and then his eyes close" notion. (I suspect more the former than the latter, but I don't have a clue how much more.)


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I just rewatched this scene, and it definitely started with an establishing shot of the boat that brought Jamie and Myrcella's corpse back to King's Landing. And then it cut to Tristane painting the rocks to be put on her eyes, so he's definitely aware of her death. And then as you see the interior of the room, it's definitely a cabin on a ship.
> 
> So I guess again the question is how/when did the Sand Snakes get on board the boat?


My question is how did he even survived the trip and be alive for the girls to be able to kill him, something tells me Jaime would have extracted some type of revenge for his daughter being poisoned.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I would guess that GRRM has allowed Benioff and Weiss to read the most current version of the manuscript for the sixth book, so they likely have a pretty good idea of where things are headed. Where it will become more tricky is when they're writing S7 this year and all they have to go on is GRRM's description of the outline for the seventh book.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

morac said:


> There's already differences between the books and the TV show. From what I've heard Martin is basically taking a hands off approach to the show.


Of course there are differences. There were even differences in the episodes he wrote!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JFriday said:


> My question is how did he even survived the trip and be alive for the girls to be able to kill him, something tells me Jaime would have extracted some type of revenge for his daughter being poisoned.


Except I think Jaime realizes that Tristane was truly in love with Myrcella and had nothing to do with her death, so exacting revenge on him wouldn't really have the desired effect. In fact, as we saw in this episode, killing Tristane is exactly what Myrcella's killers wanted, so had Jaime killed Tristane, he'd have been aiding Myrcella's killers, not punishing them.

Which reminds me: Where is Bronn? Is he still in jail in Dorne? Was he on the ship with Jaime and Myrcella and Tristane and we just didn't see him in this episode?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I agree that nobody should be upset about that exchange. But I didn't see it as the Dothraki making a joke. I saw it as them not understanding the concept of a rhetorical question so they answered the question literally, which frustrated the Khal so he simply changed his rhetorical to make it top five. It was humorous to the viewer, but not to the participants in the scene.


They were directly teasing him.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Of course there are differences. There were even differences in the episodes he wrote!


I'm not just talking minor differences, but things like characters that are dead in the show, but alive in the books and things like that.

My point is saying something can't happen in the show because it wouldn't fit in the book isn't a valid argument.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> They were directly teasing him.


I just rewatched that scene again and I don't think they were busting his balls. When he said, "Fine, it's one of the top five things...", they then had this look on their faces like, "Hmm, I guess that's probably correct." If they were teasing him, I don't think that would have been their response.

But it's definitely open to interpretation, so if you saw it as them teasing him, then I'm not going to argue about it.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

morac said:


> I'm not just talking minor differences, but things like characters that are dead in the show, but alive in the books and things like that. My point is saying something can't happen in the show because it wouldn't fit in the book isn't a valid argument.


Other than the major characters, that has been happening all along.

As for your point, you have no idea. And the point in discussion was a major structure item, not just a minor character being killed.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Which reminds me: Where is Bronn? Is he still in jail in Dorne? Was he on the ship with Jaime and Myrcella and Tristane and we just didn't see him in this episode?


Answering my own question: I just rewatched the dock scene in S05E10 and Bronn joins Jaime, Myrcella, and Tristane on the launch that's headed for the ship to sail for King's Landing.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Jamie's letter to Doran (found on reddit)


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

One thing I realized just now is that this episode is the only non-sports show that I sat down in time to watch it in realtime in probably years and years. Usually we timeshift everything.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I don't remember the letter being shown but I had assumed that when Myrcella died they sent the Prince back.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

ClutchBrake said:


> Whale Rider Snake was the one that killed him. Eurasian Snake was the one with the whip he intended to fight. Pixie-Hair Snake was with Mama Snake in Dorne.


This is gold. Love it!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> I don't remember the letter being shown but I had assumed that when Myrcella died they sent the Prince back.


I don't think the letter was shown on the episode. I'm not sure where that picture came from or if it's authentic.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> You have to recognize how the books are structured. They aren't written from the viewpoint of an unseen, all knowing narrator. Each chapter is written from the first-person point of view of one of the characters. So essentially what we know about Dany's story has been told from her POV, What we know about Tyrion's story has been told from his POV, etc. So if Jon Snow doesn't return, then we've got a very large plot point (the impending attack of the Wall by the White Walkers) and no main (POV) characters at the Wall that can "tell" the story. Sure, they could suddenly have a character like Aliser Thorne become a POV character and "tell" the story through his POV, but I think it would be unusual to add a main POV character this late in the game.


So you are a book reader?


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> One thing I realized just now is that this episode is the only non-sports show that I sat down in time to watch it in realtime in probably years and years. Usually we timeshift everything.


Well there's no need to time shift it since there are no commercials. That's the main reason I time shift.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

goblue97 said:


> So you are a book reader?


No. So if what I said is wrong, I'm happy to be corrected. But that's the way I understand it from hearing other people talk about the books.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> No. So if what I said is wrong, I'm happy to be corrected. But that's the way I understand it from hearing other people talk about the books.


I wasn't trying to be combative. It just seemed like you knew a lot about the books for a non-book reader.


----------



## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

JFriday said:


> Well there's no need to time shift it since there are no commercials. That's the main reason I time shift.


I timeshift so I can watch on my schedule instead of the broadcast schedule. I schedule TV around my life instead of my life around TV.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Flop said:


> I timeshift so I can watch on my schedule instead of the broadcast schedule. I schedule TV around my life instead of my life around TV.


Wow, you're insane, aren't you?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> One thing I realized just now is that this episode is the only non-sports show that I sat down in time to watch it in realtime in probably years and years. Usually we timeshift everything.





JFriday said:


> Well there's no need to time shift it since there are no commercials. That's the main reason I time shift.


I try to watch this as aired as well. I time shift for two reasons. The main one is to watch on my schedule, not the networks and the other is to skip commercials. For this show, I want to watch as soon as possible so I tend to watch it that night. The only other show in the DVR era that I remember doing this for was Lost (I'd start about 15 minutes in so I COULD skip commercials).


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I would say the return of Jon Snow in one form or another is about as close to 100% as it can get. But we shall see!


I also agree that Jon Snow will come back in some form. But since I'm agreeing with Rob, I'm starting to have some doubts 

They certainly made a point of Davos looking at the pool of blood left under Jon Snow with a confused expression. What was there? not enough blood or something else?

As for the Red Woman. It was clear, to me, that she had lost faith and therefore lost her youth (which was given to her by her God). Remember that she was jealous of the other priest who could bring his friend back to life. So it's not something she thinks she can do.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Well if they don't do something soon, he'll come back as a Wight or a Walker. Then he'd *definitely* be "ice", wouldn't he?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Is Mellissandre is a room adjacent to Davos or in a totally different place? 

Why does the Night Watch guy want Jon's body? why do they have to fight over it?


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think the letter was shown on the episode. I'm not sure where that picture came from or if it's authentic.


Will this help?
http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/objects-from-dorne

From an official HBO "Making Game of Thrones" website. Pretty sure that is legit.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Why does the Night Watch guy want Jon's body? why do they have to fight over it?


He doesn't...he just wants Jon's friends to surrender so, presumably, he can kill them and reign unopposed.

They and Davos discussed the probable consequences of opening the door.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I watched After the Thrones last night. Typical fanboy discussion with the typical assortment of millennial nerds leading the discussion. They don't seem to have any more insight than we do here, which I was hoping. In fact they don't seem to have had any discussion with HBO insiders regarding anything going on with the show. They just discussed it much like we do here. I'll keep watching for now, but it didn't really add anything to the show or the discussion. Seems like typical Bill Simmons stuff. Irreverent and fluffy in presentation Still this was much better than the Orphan Black post game.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

Flop said:


> I timeshift so I can watch on my schedule instead of the broadcast schedule. I schedule TV around my life instead of my life around TV.


I guess Brett and I make our schedule to watch it when it airs.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Well if they don't do something soon, he'll come back as a Wight or a Walker. Then he'd *definitely* be "ice", wouldn't he?


I was thinking about this recently and wondered how exactly this works. Why would he come back if he died on this side of the wall? Would someone in a village 1 mile from the castle also turn? What determines why/when/how people turn after death?

As such, I began to wonder if they are just being overly cautious and maybe he actually won't come back, thus giving them days or weeks to find someone who knows how to bring him back.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

JFriday said:


> I guess Brett and I make our schedule to watch it when it airs.


Some of you are more fun than I, but I don't usually have plans on Sunday nights at 9pm.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

nickels said:


> Will this help? http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/objects-from-dorne
> 
> From an official HBO "Making Game of Thrones" website. Pretty sure that is legit.


Thanks. I figured it was probably legit, but the picture was clearly not from the episode so I wondered where it came from.



TAsunder said:


> I was thinking about this recently and wondered how exactly this works. Why would he come back if he died on this side of the wall? Would someone in a village 1 mile from the castle also turn? What determines why/when/how people turn after death?
> 
> As such, I began to wonder if they are just being overly cautious and maybe he actually won't come back, thus giving them days or weeks to find someone who knows how to bring him back.


I don't think there is normally any issue with dead bodies on the south side of the Wall. The problem here is the White Walkers are coming and are certain to breach the Wall and start heading south toward the rest of Westeros.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think there is normally any issue with dead bodies on the south side of the Wall. The problem here is the White Walkers are coming and are certain to breach the Wall and start heading south toward the rest of Westeros.


Well, they have been taking great care in burning all the bodies from the fight at the Wall, even the ones that were killed on the south side.

Also, the guy that attacked the previous Lord Commander was south of the wall when he rose up.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Some of you are more fun than I, but I don't usually have plans on Sunday nights at 9pm.


It airs at 6:00 pm for me.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> I was thinking about this recently and wondered how exactly this works. Why would he come back if he died on this side of the wall? Would someone in a village 1 mile from the castle also turn? What determines why/when/how people turn after death?
> 
> As such, I began to wonder if they are just being overly cautious and maybe he actually won't come back, thus giving them days or weeks to find someone who knows how to bring him back.


Is it a function of him dying on the south side of the Wall or his body being on the North side? One thought I had is that the mutineers take his body and send it to the North side where his "friends" are, i.e. The Wildlings. Then he turns into a White Walker. This is one scenario that I am seriously thinking might occur. It also might be the reason why Davos and Jon Snow's allies do NOT want to give up the body to the mutineers.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I thought it was strange that Ramsey wasn't chasing Sansa. He loves to hunt, doesn't he? he especially loves to hunt women! Given how important this hunt was, that seemed out of character for him.

Also, the scene with Brienne and Sansa was really well done. Brought a lump in my throat as relief washed over Brienne's face at the end.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

JFriday said:


> It airs at 6:00 pm for me.


Way too early. GoT requires darkness.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Way too early. GoT requires darkness.


:up: We always turn the lights off when we watch this.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

TAsunder said:


> I was thinking about this recently and wondered how exactly this works. Why would he come back if he died on this side of the wall? Would someone in a village 1 mile from the castle also turn? What determines why/when/how people turn after death?


I think the way it is supposed to work is that corpses only reanimate to wights when a white walker works some magic to make it happen. I don't think wights happen automatically. I think a white walker can work some magic that makes all the corpses in an area turn into wights. The magic seems to be accompanied by a sudden drop in air temperature and sometimes, mist.

One flaw with that hypothesis is that I do not recall a white walker being shown when the corpse reanimated and attacked Lord Commander Mormont. I suppose there could have been a white walker nearby that we did not see. But I also suspect the Wall is not just ice but is also something of a magical barrier, so it would seem difficult for a white walker to cast a spell across the wall, or for the white walker to come south of the wall. Maybe the reanimation magic travels through the air, and a white walker cast the magic OVER the wall?


----------



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I never really understood how the religious zealots were able to imprison Cersei. Someone in this episode mentioned the Lannister's armies - 

Which brings me to the other I don't understand question - 
Where is Diana Rigg (Olenna Tyrell) and why hasn't she come to Margaery Tyrell and her brother's rescue?

Can any one remind me where Petyr 'Littlefinger' Bealish was left last season since we didn't see him in this episode?


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

JFriday said:


> It airs at 6:00 pm for me.


It's 8 for me.

I don't time-shift this on purpose, but often I'm doing something at 8 and I take my time wrapping it up and start watching at 8:07 (or whenever).


----------



## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

JFriday said:


> I guess Brett and I make our schedule to watch it when it airs.


Which is perfectly fine. I was simply responding to your assertion that there is no need to timeshift because there are no commercials. I have a need to timeshift, because at the time it airs, I can not watch uninterrupted. The presence or absence of commercials has little to no bearing on my desire to timeshift TV. I simply timeshift so I can watch when my schedule allows.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Cainebj said:


> I never really understood how the religious zealots were able to imprison Cersei. Someone in this episode mentioned the Lannister's armies -
> 
> Which brings me to the other I don't understand question -
> Where is Diana Rigg (Olenna Tyrell) and why hasn't she come to Margaery Tyrell and her brother's rescue?
> ...


Tywin's brother is at Casterly Rock with the Lannister army and not interested in helping. He will also be busy with the Boltons.

Olenna tried everything she can and was chased out of King's Landing. Her options are limited to invading King's Landing, I would think...

Nobody knows what Petyr is doing. Throwing people out of the floor in the Eyrie, I would imagine...


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> This is gold. Love it!


I stole it all from Rob!


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Tywin's brother is at Casterly Rock with the Lannister army and not interested in helping. He will also be busy with the Boltons.
> 
> Olenna tried everything she can and was chased out of King's Landing. Her options are limited to invading King's Landing, I would think...
> 
> Nobody knows what Petyr is doing. Throwing people out of the floor in the Eyrie, I would imagine...


The last we saw them, all three of those people were in King's Landing.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cherry ghost said:


> The last we saw them, all three of those people were in King's Landing.


They were?

Tywin's brother said he was leaving for Casterly Rock and Cersei then talked about him not coming back when she called for him. Olenna left King's Landing, I believe, in a bit of a hurry. Petyr was last seen at Winterfell giving Sansa to the Boltons.

I'm pretty sure about the first one. The other two? I may be forgetting something. For the first time, I did not watch the past season in preparation for this one as an emergency called me out of town this past week...


----------



## supham (Jan 15, 2003)

I think Snow makes it. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Anubys said:


> They were?
> 
> Tywin's brother said he was leaving for Casterly Rock and Cersei then talked about him not coming back when she called for him. Olenna left King's Landing, I believe, in a bit of a hurry. Petyr was last seen at Winterfell giving Sansa to the Boltons.
> 
> I'm pretty sure about the first one. The other two? I may be forgetting something. For the first time, I did not watch the past season in preparation for this one as an emergency called me out of town this past week...


Kevan Lannister came back to advise Tommen when Cersei was locked up. He was there when Cersei finished her walk of shame.

Olenna and Baelish were last seen in Baelish's old brothel. Baelish was telling Olenna he had a gift for her. That gift was Lancel Lannister, which resulted in Cersei being locked up.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

nickels said:


> Nobody upset that the Dothraki are suddenly the cast of Seinfeld talking about their top 5 lists? Come on, what is this nonsense?





DreadPirateRob said:


> Surprised no mention of the comedy routine performed by Khal Moro and two of his bloodriders. It had me giggling.
> 
> Moro: "Seeing a beautiful woman naked for the first time... what is better than that?"
> BR1: "Killing another Khal"
> ...





DevdogAZ said:


> I loved that bit with the Dothraki. Could have totally been a Monty Python sketch.


Yeah, not Seinfeld, definitely adapted from the MP Spanish Inquisition sketch.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Nobody knows what Petyr is doing. Throwing people out of the floor in the Eyrie, I would imagine...


Baelish met with Cersei and told her he was going to lead the attack on Winterfell with the help from the Eyrie.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

supham said:


> I think Snow makes it. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive.


I think he's well and truly dead.

I just don't think being well and truly dead means as much in this world as in ours.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think he's well and truly dead.
> 
> I just don't think being well and truly dead means as much in this world as in ours.


I was listening to Cast of Kings podcast and they mentioned something I didn't even think about...why did they take Jon's body? It's not like they want to preserve it because they think he may resurrect?


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> I was listening to Cast of Kings podcast and they mentioned something I didn't even think about...why did they take Jon's body?


They were just tidying up.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I watched After the Thrones last night. Typical fanboy discussion with the typical assortment of millennial nerds leading the discussion. They don't seem to have any more insight than we do here...
> 
> *They just discussed it much like we do here.*


_See, this should be a show. This is the show. 
What?
This. Just talking. 
Yeah, right. 
I'm really serious. I think that's a good idea. 
Just talking? Well what's the show about?
It's about nothing. _



Anubys said:


> I thought it was strange that Ramsey wasn't chasing Sansa. He loves to hunt, doesn't he? he especially loves to hunt women! Given how important this hunt was, that seemed out of character for him.


Because the story needed Brienne to rescue Sansa and Ramsey to live. 

I predict Jon's body goes on a funeral pyre.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tlc said:


> _
> 
> I predict Jon's body goes on a funeral pyre._


_

...and if his body doesn't burn?

hmmm..._


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

It will be a real kick in the teeth to Sansa if she makes to Castle Black only to find out that Jon's dead.

When Sansa and Theon were being chased in the woods, I bet she wished she had a loyal dire wolf then.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JYoung said:


> It will be a real kick in the teeth to Sansa if she makes to Castle Black only to find out that Jon's dead.
> 
> When Sansa and Theon were being chased in the woods, I bet she wished she had a loyal dire wolf then.


Where is her wolf? Was it killed?


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Where is her wolf? Was it killed?


In season 1, by Eddard Stark.

Nymeria attacked Joffrey and ran away so Lady was killed instead


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Arya's (protecting her) attacked Joffrey and ran away. To pay, Cersei had Sansa's killed.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Anubys said:


> ...and if his body doesn't burn? hmmm...


That could revive him.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Ser Alliser: I thought you was dead. I stabbed you myself.
Jon Snow: I got better.


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## The Spud (Aug 28, 2002)

supham said:


> I think Snow makes it. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive.


Just so long as he's not most sincerely dead.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

Maybe the Red Woman's true form is only revealed when she is entirely naked. When she was in the bath she was obscured by water somewhat. So it isn't the power the necklace, it was just that the necklace was the last thing she took off.

I think Jon will come back to life somehow in his current body. I love the idea of a funeral pyre and him not burning...and maybe Melisandre is there and helps the process along. I feel the show has encouraged the "he's not dead" chatter and continue to do so by leaving his body intact on the table at the end of this episode. People will be extremely let down if he stays dead.

I find myself very lost when it comes to Arya's story. I can't really remember where she is ("somewhere else") and what she is doing (some sort of training with the dude who changes faces) and what the point is. And I really don't want her to stay blind.


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think he's well and truly dead.
> 
> I just don't think being well and truly dead means as much in this world as in ours.


This! So strange that people are questioning whether he is dead.


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## markbox (May 3, 2004)

Anubys said:


> ...and if his body doesn't burn?
> 
> hmmm...


"He's a witch!". Oh wait, that's only if he floats in water... 

If he doesn't burn than he becomes Lord Snow the Unburnt just like Danni is the Unburnt. And maybe that means he becomes a dragon rider at some point (complete speculation on my part but related to his rumored lineage). I would think wargs would make really good dragon riders.


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## markbox (May 3, 2004)

Tracy said:


> Maybe the Red Woman's true form is only revealed when she is entirely naked. When she was in the bath she was obscured by water somewhat. So it isn't the power the necklace, it was just that the necklace was the last thing she took off.
> 
> I think Jon will come back to life somehow in his current body. I love the idea of a funeral pyre and him not burning...and maybe Melisandre is there and helps the process along. I feel the show has encouraged the "he's not dead" chatter and continue to do so by leaving his body intact on the table at the end of this episode. People will be extremely let down if he stays dead.
> 
> I find myself very lost when it comes to Arya's story. I can't really remember where she is ("somewhere else") and what she is doing (some sort of training with the dude who changes faces) and what the point is. And I really don't want her to stay blind.


Without looking anything up (e.g. from memory so could be getting my facts wrong), Arya is across the Narrow Sea in Davos training to be an assassin. I suspect she wants to return to the Westeros with her assassin skills so she can kill the people on her list. What she didn't count on was that the Many Faced Gods have a code and what she wants goes against that code. So now the Many Faced Gods have blinded her and she is begging in the streets of Davos (although I suspect that her situation is simply the next phase of her training).


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

markbox said:


> Without looking anything up (e.g. from memory so could be getting my facts wrong), Arya is across the Narrow Sea in Davos training to be an assassin. I suspect she wants to return to the Westeros with her assassin skills so she can kill the people on her list. What she didn't count on was that the Many Faced Gods have a code and what she wants goes against that code. So now the Many Faced Gods have blinded her and she is begging in the streets of Davos (although I suspect that her situation is simply the next phase of her training).


Mostly correct. Davos is the guy who used to be the Hand of the King for Stannis, and is now barricaded in the room at Castle Black with Jon Snow's body.

The Free City of Braavos is where Arya is currently located. It's the home of the Iron Bank (where Stannis got his loan to be able to pursue his war against the Lannisters) and also the home of the House of Black and White (where Arya was training to be a faceless assassin until she broke their creed by stealing a face and killing Meryn Trant without permission).


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

Thank you both! I should read a detailed recap before each season starts.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Not sure if this is any indication, but


Spoiler



One of the torrent sites I visit has a banner on the home page for GoT showing a picture of John Snow in the center with piercing blue eyes, just like the Walkers.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Aria is an interesting story. She is training to become an assassin to kill the people on her list. Unfortunately, her training includes becoming "no one". If she masters her training and becomes "no one", the people on her list are inconsequential, as Aria Stark would no longer exist. She will either fail in her training or fail in her mission to eliminate her enemies, because she can't do both.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

nickels said:


> Aria is an interesting story. She is training to become an assassin to kill the people on her list. Unfortunately, her training includes becoming "no one". If she masters her training and becomes "no one", the people on her list are inconsequential, as Aria Stark would no longer exist. She will either fail in her training or fail in her mission to eliminate her enemies, because she can't do both.


Arya.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

nickels said:


> Aria is an interesting story. She is training to become an assassin to kill the people on her list. Unfortunately, her training includes becoming "no one". If she masters her training and becomes "no one", the people on her list are inconsequential, as Aria Stark would no longer exist. She will either fail in her training or fail in her mission to eliminate her enemies, because she can't do both.


Which is what her teacher (H'akar?) told her. She will never become "no one", so she will have to become something else. Or something like that. Just before she was punished by being blinded.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> ...and if his body doesn't burn?
> 
> hmmm...


Jon can be burned. He burned his hand killing his first ice zombie.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

markbox said:


> "He's a witch!". Oh wait, that's only if he floats in water...
> 
> If he doesn't burn than he becomes Lord Snow the Unburnt just like Danni is the Unburnt. And maybe that means he becomes a dragon rider at some point (complete speculation on my part but related to his rumored lineage). I would think wargs would make really good dragon riders.





Shaunnick said:


> Jon can be burned. He burned his hand killing his first ice zombie.


With that being said, if rumors and speculation about Jon Snow turn out to be true, note that Viserys could also be burned.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> With that being said, if rumors and speculation about Jon Snow turn out to be true, note that Viserys could also be burned.


He wasn't a real dragon. 

(or did she say "true" dragon?)


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Any other book readers think that maybe Jon could end up



Spoiler



like Coldhands?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

cherry ghost said:


> Any other book readers think that maybe Jon could end up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You mean Benjen?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Well, they have been taking great care in burning all the bodies from the fight at the Wall, even the ones that were killed on the south side.
> 
> Also, the guy that attacked the previous Lord Commander was south of the wall when he rose up.


Right, but those 2 bodies (of Rangers) were killed/died north of the wall, found north of the wall, and returned to Castle Black (south of the wall) before they reanimated.

It seems that, currently, you have to die north of the wall to become a wight.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Right, but those 2 bodies (of Rangers) were killed/died north of the wall, found north of the wall, and returned to Castle Black (south of the wall) before they reanimated.
> 
> It seems that, currently, you have to die north of the wall to become a wight.


It just occurred to me that GoT hasn't been on since this election cycle began because I just pictured a giant wall of ice separating the US from Mexico and thought "Wait we're going to all be north of the wall!!!"


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

OK, I'm definitely forgetting something from the show...when did Roose Bolton "rebel against the Lannisters?" I thought Tywin Lannister made him Warden of the North for his betrayal/murder of Robb Stark?


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

MacThor said:


> OK, I'm definitely forgetting something from the show...when did Roose Bolton "rebel against the Lannisters?" I thought Tywin Lannister made him Warden of the North for his betrayal/murder of Robb Stark?


The Bolton's "rebellion" against the Lannisters was their scheming with Littlefinger to have Sansa wed Ramsay.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TampaThunder said:


> The Bolton's "rebellion" against the Lannisters was their scheming with Littlefinger to have Sansa wed Ramsay.


Exactly. Sansa is wanted in King's Landing for murdering Joffrey. Also, as far as anyone in King's Landing knows, she's the only surviving heir to Winterfell. So by having Ramsey marry Sansa, it made it clear to the Lannisters that the Boltons no longer respected the Lannisters' authority and they were trying to legitimize their claim to the North without having to rely on any title or grant given to them by the crown.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

JFriday said:


> It airs at 6:00 pm for me.


Ahh... yes.

I might still be finishing up my Early Bird Special dinner that started at 4:30pm.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Exactly. Sansa is wanted in King's Landing for murdering Joffrey. Also, as far as anyone in King's Landing knows, she's the only surviving heir to Winterfell. So by having Ramsey marry Sansa, it made it clear to the Lannisters that the Boltons no longer respected the Lannisters' authority and they were trying to legitimize their claim to the North without having to rely on any title or grant given to them by the crown.


Thanks - makes sense. But the Boltons also finished off the Baratheons for the Lannisters, so that should earn them some points. As long as the North doesn't move on the other lands...

The Lannisters are going to have their hands full with Dorne, I think.

Speaking of Baratheons...anyone think Gendry still has a part to play?
After all, the opening credits title page still has a stag as one of its four game pieces. He's the last stag...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MacThor said:


> Speaking of Baratheons...anyone think Gendry still has a part to play?
> After all, the opening credits title page still has a stag as one of its four game pieces. He's the last stag...


Legally, King Tommen is a Baratheon...I mean, _we _know better,but that's the basis for his rule!


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

Spoiler



I don't think it was a mistake that the dogs disappeared when Sansa was being rescued. I think it is possible they sensed that Sansa is a "Dire Wolf"


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

wedgecon said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it was a mistake that the dogs disappeared when Sansa was being rescued. I think it is possible they sensed that Sansa is a "Dire Wolf"


I think that it was simply writer's convenience or an oversight. They weren't acting any different toward her until the ceased to be needed for the scene. Why is that spoilerized? I think you can theorize all you want as long as it isn't revealing something that you actually know from another source such as the books.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Legally, King Tommen is a Baratheon...I mean, _we _know better,but that's the basis for his rule!


Plus, Gendry is a bastard. We've seen that Bastards have no legal claim in the best of circumstances (see: Ramsey) and so would stand zero chance of making any ripple as a poor and non-acknowledged bastard. It's not like they have DNA testing (and if they did, it wouldn't matter).


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Legally, it seemed that Stannis had the best claim to the throne (assuming you consider Robert's reign legitimate) but we all saw how that turned out.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Legally, it seemed that Stannis had the best claim to the throne (assuming you consider Robert's reign legitimate) but we all saw how that turned out.


If you accept that Tommen is a bastard. But that's never been proven (I mean, WE know it, but in Westeros outside Cersei's bed it's just gossip).


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> If you accept that Tommen is a bastard. But that's never been proven (I mean, WE know it, but in Westeros outside Cersei's bed it's just gossip).


Well, as pointed out upthread, it's not like there's a DNA testing lab in King's Landing. 

I think that Ned Stark was building a pretty good case against Joffrey but then he went and lost his head about it.


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