# Has anyone successfully made their update phone call with a VOIP service?



## joellyn (Nov 6, 2005)

And if so, please tell me your setup!


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## PLAYSw/SQUIRRELS (Nov 10, 2005)

I have VONAGE. I found these directions in one of the threads (can't remember which one) and it's worked successfully everytime for me. Here it is:

Go to DIRECTV Central
Messages & Setup
Settings
Phone
Edit Phone Settings
Dial in Number: xxx-xxxx (Keep the number you already have.)
Dial prefix: 2122773895 (This is the TiVo number in New York - a free call since VoIP has free long distance.)
Call waiting prefix: *70,#034 (Note the comma before pound sign.)
Tone/pulse: Tone
Phone avail detection: Off
Dial tone detection: Off
Then make a test call.


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## KrazyKevin (Oct 31, 2003)

This has worked for many on here and seems the to be the best overall settings, but,  it hasn't worked for me.


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## AMike (Oct 22, 2004)

I just had my phone telephone number switched to Vonage yesterday. I had read on a Vonage forum how to make your Tivo dial out using VOIP. Here's the link:

http://www.vonage-forum.com/home-wiring-installation-guide.html

The quick and dirty version of how I did it: 
1. I unplugged the telephone wires in the Telephone Interface Unit box on the side of my house. 
2. After connecting the ethernet connection to the Vonage adaptor, I then connected the adaptor to an existing phone jack.
3. I then began using the phones in my home like normal.
4. I then had each of my Tivo's dial out without incident.

Edit: I didn't see the above responses, so I guess I was slow on the draw. One thing I should mention is that I have not changed any of my settings, and I have not had problems with either of my Tivo's dialing out at least at this time.


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## DesignDawg (Aug 10, 2005)

My TiVo dials out perfectly with default settings over Vonage. I think the main secret is what Vonage adapter you have. The new ones seem to work like a champ. The old ones, not so much.


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

joellyn said:


> And if so, please tell me your setup!


Which dvr? I have to use completely different settings to get my R10 and HR10-250 to work.


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## llowrey (Nov 11, 2005)

I have somehow managed to get my R10 to work with Vonage without any problems. I only have *99 as a dialing prefix and I'm dialing a local number. I have a year old RT31P2 that has a lot of whitenoise on the line. The old 'phone off the hook on line 2 trick' solved that problem for me. Newer firmware revisions have reduced the noise but it is still there if I unhook the phone from line 2. I don't know if this helps at all but I have not had any problems with my R10 making calls.


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## snoop (Oct 10, 2002)

I have at&t callvantage. More expensive than vonage but IMO better call quality, better customer service and they could port my local number while vonage wanted me to use one from a town 40 miles away.

R10 calls go through with no special settings or changes, box stock setup. I dont even have to enable the 'fax/modem support'. Note that my old series 1 did require the fax/modem option turned on, but worked fine with that. Seems the r10 modem has much lower demands than the series1 modems do.


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## trnsfrguy (Apr 28, 2005)

Has anyone had any success with Packet8 ?


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## Joe Davis (Oct 9, 2004)

I use Vonage and the default DTV settings in my R10 and it works perfectly!


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## formulaben (Jan 27, 2003)

I've got Comcast voice and I'm having the same problem with my HDVR2.


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## Schwegel (Nov 12, 2005)

I keep getting call interrupted before the new software load can complete a download, I have vonage and have tried multiple settings, any other suggestions?


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## mey (Dec 20, 2003)

I have ATT Callvantage, mine works fine. I did not change a thing.


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## jimmymiko (Mar 29, 2003)

I have Tivo, Fax, and Modems that all dial out on vonage without issues. I think it all depends on your area. I have Road Runner and live in the burbs.


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## Big Deficit (Jul 8, 2003)

My 3 series 1 Tivos have had no problem with Sunrocket over the last couple of months, I just chose a dial up # near Sunrockets Reston VA headquarters. OTH, Sunrockets service in general has slid quite a bit since I signed on :down:


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## feeneyp (Nov 12, 2005)

If you have the Motorola adapter that Vonage is now sending out you can make a successful tivo call. All I did was buy a signal splitter that enables me to run a phone line from my Motorola adapter to both my phone and my tivo. I also had to change my call in number from a local 410 number to a New York 212 number before I could make a successful call. 

You can find a signal splitter at Home Depot for a few bucks. I suggest you buy the in line splitter. This requires you to plug a short phone line into the back of the Motorola adapter. You then plug that line into the inline splitter. This will give you two jacks running into your voip phone line. Hook one jack to your phone and run a line from the other jack in the splitter to your tivo. I couldnt get the splitter that plugs directly into the Motorola adapter to work because it was too bulky and partially blocked from making a good connection by the power cord for the Motorola adapter.

Then just follow the directions already posted here for changing you call in number to a 212 number. One you get to the edit phone page you can type in the 212 area code and tivo will pull all the 212 numbers available to you for call in. I just picked the first one on the list (Northern Manhattan). Worked like a charm.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

joellyn said:


> And if so, please tell me your setup!


I tried all of the different settings and never could get it to work. My suggestion... don't jack with doing it this way. I would just use PPP and connect that way. If you're just trying to update the software to 6.2... this should work.

Just do a search for PPP on this site for more information.


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## bobru (Jan 31, 2005)

I have a Standalone Toshiba Series 2 RS-TX20 DVR; charter broadband; Vonage Voip; and Directv. 

My question is, the wireless phone/modem jack. I got $70 unit by SBC (model SB0900) that is up to 56k modem connection. 

My question is, am I better off keeping this one, or getting one of the cheapy RCA units I see on ebay for $25. Any difference as far as the Tivo goes?

Thanks!


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## JnApop (Feb 26, 2004)

I got qty 2 Phillips 7000's from Weakness to supplement my Series 2.

Ordered a Fax modem line from Vonage. Had 'em set the packet size to 30 (did it with an email request).

Hooked up system #1, made the initial setup call using these parameters:

DIAL PREFIX: *99,1 212 277 3895,,,,
CALL WAITING: #1200


Worked like a champ.

Hooked up second unit, same experience.

Now to see how daily calls go, not that I care the least, going on over 365 with my original Unit without a daily call.


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## bcronin (Dec 29, 2001)

joellyn said:


> And if so, please tell me your setup!


AT&T CallVantage (with the Centillium TA) worked fine with my series 1 GXCEBOT. For my series 2 Philips DSR708 I had to turn on fax/modem support to get it to work. I have my calls going to the NYC number. Not sure if thats necessarily required, but its irrelevant as it costs no more than calling any other number and I didn't have the time/patience/reason to experiment with anything else. Oh and at first with CV I had a crummy LinkSys router/TA that had horrible noise issues. I simply could not get ANY TiVo calls to work. I insisted AT&T replace the LinkSys and have been happy ever since. Excellent call quality with the Centillium.


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## cmeinck (Sep 18, 2003)

> Go to DIRECTV Central
> Messages & Setup
> Settings
> Phone
> ...


Thank you so much for this. I've had an HD Tivo that hasn't been able to record for two months because it was never activated. It wasn't activated because I could never make the first call with Cablevision's Optimum Voice. This worked like a charm. I'm activated, recording and downloading the latest updates for my HD Tivo. Now I can go back to using my Cablevision DVR's for their intended use --- watching HD Hockey and that's it.

Thanks again.


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## jspencer (Dec 23, 2001)

I have ATT with the Linksys Combo Wireless Gateway. It will not work and ATT will not support it. Basically they said tough. I did have the DLink Gateway and it worked like a charm.


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## jfalkingham (Jul 23, 2002)

jspencer said:


> I have ATT with the Linksys Combo Wireless Gateway. It will not work and ATT will not support it. Basically they said tough. I did have the DLink Gateway and it worked like a charm.


Will not support what? The Linksys combo gateway?

I have Vonage and ATT CallVantage in my house. Vonage is my business line, CallVantage is my home. CallVantage produces a more 'phone' like quality in dial tone and far fewer quality issues. TiVo worked over the DLINK router over AT&T CallVantage without any special settings by me. I tried using it on Vonage, and had a lot of problems getting it to dial successfully over the linksys Vonage router.

Go pick up an ATT CallVantage router, hook it up and compare sound quality to Vonage. Should be interesting if you did a 2 week test side by side. I was surprised... I kept vonage because the phone number I got is easy to remember and am using it for marketing, so don't want the cost to update that.


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## ESPalmer (Jan 16, 2002)

I have had Comcast VOIP for over a year without issues on SAT-60s, Phillips, and Hughes S2. Thursday I am switching to the new Comcast which provides Voice mail over the internet, I guess they need to change the modem out, I will post the results and the modem make if it can help others. Here's hoping no problems. 

1/4//2006: All is well with COmcast VOIP

Make: Arris:Touchstone Telephony Modem TM02PP/NA 716691


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## Jotas (Mar 19, 2005)

I use Sunrocket and it works fine on both my R10 and HR10. I also managed to have the Sunrocket "Gizmo" power all of my phone jacks, so in reality I didn't need the expandable 2ghz phones I initially bought two years ago.


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## scriberdf (Dec 9, 2005)

I used Vonage for the Guided Setup, and it went perfectly. Only alteration was the disable Call Waiting, and I'm not sure that made a difference.
On a wireless broadband setup now, which also is working well.


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## kevinE (Dec 1, 2005)

So someone with an HDVR2 has something that works; works most of the time connecting with Vonage.

Dial in number does not matter
Dial Prefix: 12122773895
Call waiting Prefix: ,,#19,,
phone available: off
dial tone detect: off

No dsl filter, vonage line quality set to highest.

:up: Good luck! I am about to work on my HR10-250.


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## donivan (Jul 20, 2004)

PLAYSw/SQUIRRELS said:


> I have VONAGE. I found these directions in one of the threads (can't remember which one) and it's worked successfully everytime for me. Here it is:
> 
> Go to DIRECTV Central
> Messages & Setup
> ...


I turned off call waiting thru the Vonage dashboard in lieu of *70 and used these settings, it took a couple calls for it to be successful and doing 2 units ate up almost 200 minutes. (Just in case you have the 500 minute package) But both units were successfully upgraded to 6.2. I have 2 RCA DVR 40's. I originally found this info on the Vonage site. Good luck.


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## yarzy (Nov 15, 2004)

kevinE said:


> So someone with an HDVR2 has something that works; works most of the time connecting with Vonage.
> 
> Dial in number does not matter
> Dial Prefix: 12122773895
> ...


After reading all the other posts, this woked for me...

Thanks!


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## jspencer (Dec 23, 2001)

jfalkingham said:


> Will not support what? The Linksys combo gateway?
> 
> I have Vonage and ATT CallVantage in my house. Vonage is my business line, CallVantage is my home. CallVantage produces a more 'phone' like quality in dial tone and far fewer quality issues. TiVo worked over the DLINK router over AT&T CallVantage without any special settings by me. I tried using it on Vonage, and had a lot of problems getting it to dial successfully over the linksys Vonage router.
> 
> Go pick up an ATT CallVantage router, hook it up and compare sound quality to Vonage. Should be interesting if you did a 2 week test side by side. I was surprised... I kept vonage because the phone number I got is easy to remember and am using it for marketing, so don't want the cost to update that.


Callvantage will not offer any support for the Tivo Dial out. They want me to purchase a second line for the calls. I never had a problem until I went to the Linksys gateway. (IT includes a wireless router.) I still can't make any calls out with any of my DTivos. I refuse to pay for an additional line just to make the calls out. So the Callvantage works fine with some of the gatewasy but I haven't had a good experience with the new one.


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## bcronin (Dec 29, 2001)

The linkSys has horrible noise issues. Get the Centillium if at all possible.


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## greg4jc (Feb 6, 2004)

I could not get my tivo to work with Vonage but I bought a USB adapter (wired) From Office Max it is a Belkin USB 10/100 Ethernet Adapter and It works Great. I tried the one that Tivo recomended but all I can find now was the Version 2 and it would not work at all. So all I did is put that in Paralell from my Broadand modem to the Vonage modem and one line running to computer and one to the Belkin adapter to the Tive and Wala it works Great. Hope this might help someone. cause it was tons of greif to get it to work for me. Greg


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## BigOkie (Mar 10, 2005)

kevinE said:


> So someone with an HDVR2 has something that works; works most of the time connecting with Vonage.
> 
> Dial in number does not matter
> Dial Prefix: 12122773895
> ...


I have a LinkSys RT31P2 Router w/ Vonage service and a Hughes DTV w/ Tivo receiver and this worked for me as well. Thanks.

Question...I am wanting to upgrade to a HDTV w/ Tivo Receiver. DTV is telling me that my Vonage service won't work with it. Is this true? They said VoIp wouldn't work with what I have now too and it does. Has anyone had any experience with the HDTV with Tivo receiver and Vonage?


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## jwmci (Nov 28, 2003)

I am using a Series 1 Sony SVR-2000 with a LinkSys RTP300 via home phone wiring. The Tivo believes that the call succeeds, but the schedule is not extended beyond today.

Anyone have any clues what's happening?


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## plemm (May 23, 2005)

Hi - I'm a new Sunrocket user. So far, so good but I'm trying to figure out how to make my regular phones & jacks work with Sunrocket (instead of the 2GHz phones). Can you point me to a site that tells you how to do it? I read somewhere that I needed to disconnect the lines outside. We did that, but am not sure what to do next. Thanks.


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## donivan (Jul 20, 2004)

plemm, Here are the instructions listed on the Vonage Forums, same technique should work for any VOIP provider. Good Luck!


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## undertow (Feb 2, 2002)

Your results will vary depending on which DirecTV Tivo receiver you've got. I've got a Philips DSR708 which I could never get to connect with Vonage service. I'm using the Linksys RT31P2 router and I've got FIOS as my ISP. I tried all the various codes, 212 area code phone numbers, and DSL filters and never could get it to connect. I've read that the codes don't have any effect on Series 2 DirecTV Tivos and I can say that they didn't influence my model's ability to call out at all.

I recently switched to Sunrocket and it's connected every time. Plus, you get a free second phone number (I got one with an out of state area code so my family can call me for cheap), a free cordless phone set with two phones, and it's considerably cheaper than Vonage if you go the annual pre-pay route.


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## ANK_Tivo (Mar 26, 2006)

I have a vonage wireless router (PAP2) and 2 DTV Dvr's (1 Phillips and one HDVR2, both 40 hour). I surfed alot of forums and finally found this solution on directv's website. It tried a couple combinations and one finally worked. Try each combination 3 times before you try the next (sometimes it will take 2 or 3 attempts to get through).

*Here is what I used:

Dial In Number: 1-212-277-3895
Dial Prefix: 12122773895,,,,,
Call Waiting: ,*79, 
Tone/Pulse: Tone
Phone Detection: Off
Dial Tone Detection: Off *​
Forget Vonage customer service, they suck! Directv had some user forum on their website that actually helped plus a little bit of input from the Tivo community forum and my Dtv Dvr's were talking to the mother ship again 

*HERE IS WHAT WAS POSTED ON A FORUM ON DIRECTV'S SITE:*
Re: DirecTV DVR (TiVo) and VOIP Posted Feb 14, 2006 by HD94 
Try the following, this will usually get the DVR to connect

DIRECTV Central 
Messages & Setup 
Settings 
Phone 
Edit Phone Settings 
Set to Tivo number in New York (free call since VoIP has free long-distance): 
Choose: Area Code 212 
Select Dial-In Number: Manhattan South 12122773895 
Or, simply enter the number in the Dial Prefix field. 
Test number. May need to try 2 or 3 times. 
Set Call Waiting Prefix: (without qoutes) 
"*99," or ",*79," or ",#034" or ",#019"

Tone/pulse: Tone 
Phone avail detection: Off 
Dial tone detection: Off 
After the "test changes" are successful, make a Daily call. 
If TiVo daily call still fails after 3 tries: 
Vonage - Try "Change speed through Vonage Dashboard menu" (see steps below). 
Other VoIP - Change dialing speed through your VoIP menus (for help, see documentation from your VoIP provider). Or ask VoIP provider to add fax capability. 
Vonage - Change speed through Vonage Dashboard menu:

Go to Vonage website, Log into your Vonage account. 
On the Vonage dashboard, click on FEATURES. 
Go to BANDWIDTH SAVER, and click on CONFIGURE button. 
Review sound quality / bandwidth selection (expressed in kilobits per second).

30 Kbps / Normal Sound Quality = same quality as normal telephone service 
50 Kbps / Higher Sound Quality = above-average sound 
90 Kbps / Highest Sound Quality = best digital audio quality possible

Change the setting to 90 Kbps. 
Advise customer - The new setting may affect your Internet speed. 
If already set to 90 Kbps, continue below. 
Press SUBMIT. 
If test indicates "failure," do all the above steps again. (If test never succeeds, try fax option below.) 
Log out of your Vonage account. 
Try TiVo daily call. 
IMPORTANT - If you changed setting to 90 Kbps in step 6, wait 1 hour before trying TiVo daily call. 
If setting was already 90 Kbps, you can try TiVo daily call right away. 
If TiVo daily call fails: 
Ask Vonage to add fax capability (see below). 
Ask VoIP provider to add fax capability:

(This is an option if neither customer nor VoIP provider was able to change dialing speed.)

When VoIP has faxing capability, it usually has the right speed for TiVo. 
Suggestion: 
Call your VoIP provider and say you want the ability to send and receive faxes. 
Just mention faxing - not satellite TV or TiVo. The VoIP providers know how to make fax changes, but will not know how to make any changes specific to satellite TV or TiVo. 
If VoIP has fee for faxing - Say you want to send and receive faxes only through your primary line. This way, there might not be any charges. 
Your VoIP provider can usually make the change quickly, with no service calls or extra hardware. 
IMPORTANT - Always check with your VoIP provider for phone and fax charges.


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## tjack41 (Jun 18, 2005)

I have Vonage and could not get my Sony T-60 Tivo to work with the first router I had. Just installed the Linksys WRTP54G wireless router and it worked without changing any of the settings! Used my local dial-in number in Virginia. no #19, no new york number.


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## strasner (Apr 13, 2006)

This thread is pretty good, and with its help, I was able to get my box working from around Feb 06 to March 06. In April 06, there was a tivo update pushed out, and I couldn't connect and download the update nor program info. Tivo and I were in a fight. Here are some quick thoughts to help you...

1) If you can - use the USB/LAN - OBVIOUSLY! To solve this via the phone is a pain!!!

2) I tried like 30 configurations (all New York numbers in the Dial Prefix), and various combo's in the call waiting prefix. In April 06, none of this worked. I tried about 100 times at all hours of the day/night. Seriously. 100 times!

My main problem was when I was downloading info, it would be killed in the middle of the download with a call interrupted. I only go to this point like 35% of the time I tried. The rest of the times I tried (65%), it would error out before that. Anyway, I finally got connected (after about 12 straight hours of trying) using:


Dial in number does not matter
Dial Prefix: 2122717103
Call waiting Prefix: none
tone/pulse dialing: tone
phone available: off
dial tone detect: off

IT WAS BRUTAL, and with persistence, I got lucky. Good luck.


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## BillMc (Jan 8, 2005)

I have mine set up this way. It works fine, but it seems to be dialing out to the 212 prefix about 10-20 times a day. (connects about one minute each call) I'm on the Vontage 500 minute call and this could add up very quick. Any suggestions on how to stop this beside going unlimited?


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## jd0667 (Aug 10, 2002)

Now that DirecTV has released the 6.3 software update that will work on my HR10-250, I need the daily call to succeed in order to receive the update.

This thread was very helpful in terms of figuring out a dialing configuration that works. However, my unit needed an extra nudge in the form of a cooler operating temperature.

What I mean is this: the Tivo modem seems to be highly sensitive to heat. I keep my Tivo in a cabinet that has a fan installed, which keeps the Tivo operating temp at a high but "normal" 49C. 

By following the instructions on this thread, I switched to the South Manhattan dialup number for my prefix, and I used the ",,#19,," setting in call waiting. Those two changes allowed my box to successfully dial and get past the modem handshake. However, it could never get past the "connecting" stage...it would either fail to "connect," or fail to "negotiate." (I'm paraphrasing the error messages that were displayed.)

I remembered, however, that my old Sony SAT-T60 had a similar problem connecting when I first added a second hard drive to it about 4 years ago. Turns out that the extra drive raised the Sony's operating temp to a level that caused the modem to puke. I solved that problem by removing the top of the Sony's case and by installing a fan in my cabinet. Those two changes dropped the operating temp by about 8C, and suddenly the modem worked beautifully.

Fast forward to tonight, and I realized that my HR10-250 modem might be suffering a similar cramp in its style. I thus opened the door of my cabinet, which allowed the operating temp to drop 3C, to 46C. Suddenly my test and daily calls are going through perfectly.


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## MI_SAT (Jan 4, 2005)

BillMc said:


> I have mine set up this way. It works fine, but it seems to be dialing out to the 212 prefix about 10-20 times a day. (connects about one minute each call) I'm on the Vontage 500 minute call and this could add up very quick. Any suggestions on how to stop this beside going unlimited?


Has anyone figured out the multiple calls per day problem? My R10 calls 2 times per hour, every other hour.


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## OLdDog (Dec 15, 2001)

Those are probably the call to DTV's 800 number to upload access card info. Most of the solutions for the regular calls do not work for the 800 number calls. It either works or it does not.

If you have the 212 number set as a dialing prefix then it, most probably ,is trying to use that number for the DTV call and that will not work.


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## Dkerr24 (Oct 29, 2004)

BillMc said:


> I have mine set up this way. It works fine, but it seems to be dialing out to the 212 prefix about 10-20 times a day. (connects about one minute each call) I'm on the Vontage 500 minute call and this could add up very quick. Any suggestions on how to stop this beside going unlimited?


Easiest solution of all is just unplug the phone line. We all know it is not needed for the DTivo to work.

Even better solution is run the zipper script and get all the neat features and permanently disable the need for a phone call.


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## nrosoff (Apr 18, 2004)

Why are you guys trying to go through your VOIP gateway? Why not buy a USB adapter and connect the TIVO directly to the network. This is much more reliable and you avoid tieing up your phone line. 

I know somewhere on this site are direction to set it up this way.


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## MI_SAT (Jan 4, 2005)

nrosoff said:


> Why are you guys trying to go through your VOIP gateway? Why not buy a USB adapter and connect the TIVO directly to the network. This is much more reliable and you avoid tieing up your phone line.
> 
> I know somewhere on this site are direction to set it up this way.


I'll look for those instructions, but I wasn't aware that there was a working USB port on an R10.


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## 300M (Dec 1, 2005)

I use AT&T CallVantage service with the default settings on my HR10-250. Didn't change a thing.


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## jgkurz (Feb 4, 2005)

300M said:


> I use AT&T CallVantage service with the default settings on my HR10-250. Didn't change a thing.


Does this also mean you do not have Fax/Modem support turned on?

Thanks!


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Save the headache and use PPP.

http://www.tivohelp.com/archive/tivohelp.swiki.net/45.html


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## chewboxa (Apr 15, 2005)

PPP only works on hacked tivos. at least the hr10-250


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## OLdDog (Dec 15, 2001)

chewboxa said:


> PPP only works on hacked tivos. at least the hr10-250


Bull! PPP works on all SD TiVos with a simple dial string and a less simple Windows setup.

Ther is no need to hack a TiVo just to get PPP working.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

chewboxa said:


> PPP only works on hacked tivos. at least the hr10-250


Nope works fine on all DirecTiVo's, 3.x and 6.x. No hacks required.

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4284596&&

You might be thinking of making your daily call over the network, which is not supported. PPP uses a serial cable to your PC to connect to TiVo.

In fact, hacking your TiVo will BREAK PPP, since most people enable BASH over the serial port.


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## TivoGuy30 (Dec 2, 2004)

PLAYSw/SQUIRRELS said:


> I have VONAGE. I found these directions in one of the threads (can't remember which one) and it's worked successfully everytime for me. Here it is:
> 
> Go to DIRECTV Central
> Messages & Setup
> ...


This Also Works with Time Warner cable Digtal Phone too!


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Works with Vonage and a Motorola VT2442/VT2142 50% of the time with no changes at all.


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## gamo62 (Oct 12, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> Nope works fine on all DirecTiVo's, 3.x and 6.x. No hacks required.
> 
> http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4284596&&
> 
> ...


You would have thought that someone out there would have figured a way to do the daily call over the network. (For those who chose not to disable it)


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## OLdDog (Dec 15, 2001)

gamo62 said:


> You would have thought that someone out there would have figured a way to do the daily call over the network. (For those who chose not to disable it)


There has been a way to do this for YEARS with the series 1s see:
http://www.9thtee.com/tivoupgrades.htm
I have one of these myself.

For the series 2 it is a bit more complex, but no harder. Run the zipper or use an instantcake from:
http://www.ptvupgrade.com/products/instantcake/


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