# The Flash S01E17: Tricksters OAD 3/31/15



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

"I am your father."

Worth the whole episode.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> "I am your father."
> 
> Worth the whole episode.


I actually cringed at that line. SO obvious from the beginning (to me anyway). And yes, I get the reference.

Overall though I thought this was a fantastic episode, mostly for the Eobard Thawne backstory. I thought at first Wells was actually 2 people merged, ala Firestorm. But no.

And yet another 2 people know Flash's identity (though to be fair, Barry's dad seemed to have it all figured out). I have a feeling they'll regret telling Eddie, though.

Won't say anything specific but the previews looked awesome. But a two week wait!


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Good episode. I like how they showed photos from the 90's Flash series episode where Hamill played the Trickster and basically kept the same back story for him (minus the Flash catching him part of course). 

We also get the back story for Eobard Thawne and multiple references to the Speed Force. It looks like they are being pretty faithful to the source material. 

And yes based on the previews for next episode it will be a long two weeks.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

morac said:


> And yes based on the previews for next episode it will be a long two weeks.


Just to clarify, those weren't previews for next episode, they were for "this season." So, probably several episodes represented.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I LOVED it. I loved Hamills first run as The Trickster back on the 1990s Flash series, too, my favorite two episodes of that series. 

"Run, run run run run!"


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Peter000 said:


> I actually cringed at that line. SO obvious from the beginning (to me anyway). And yes, I get the reference.


Cringed? I don't want to make any jokes around you. A nice, simple wink to the fourth wall that still fit the story and you cringe.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Cringed? I don't want to make any jokes around you. A nice, simple wink to the fourth wall that still fit the story and you cringe.


It was pretty groan worthy.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Hamil has lost some weight. 

And he does "unhinged" very well. He even did it well in the character he played in "Sushi Girl".

--Carlos V.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Peter000 said:


> (though to be fair, Barry's dad seemed to have it all figured out).


Henry all but came out and said to Barry that he knew who the Flash was in that previous scene in the prison infirmary.
Still, the scenes between Barry and Henry were really good in the episode.



Peter000 said:


> I have a feeling they'll regret telling Eddie, though.


In the comics, there is a history of bad blood between the Allen family and the Thawne family.

Certainly a fight over Iris could be a catalyst.



Ereth said:


> I LOVED it. I loved Hamills first run as The Trickster back on the 1990s Flash series, too, my favorite two episodes of that series.
> 
> "Run, run run run run!"


Hamil seemed to really enjoy playing Jesse here.

The speed bomb was also used in Justice League: Doom but it works here as well.

I do wonder how they're going to prove Henry's innocence in a court of law.
I suspect that "a time traveler from the future killed her" won't play that well.

BTW, hasn't Eobard already changed the timestream by moving up the construction of the particle accelerator?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> BTW, hasn't Eobard already changed the timestream by moving up the construction of the particle accelerator?


Yes, but apparently not in a way that matters to him (he keeps checking the future)...


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

I guess it's a good thing that vibrating through a wall let him lose the wrist bomb, but not his suit. 

The "I am your father" was funny...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BrettStah said:


> I guess it's a good thing that vibrating through a wall let him lose the wrist bomb, but not his suit.


Yeah, I was expecting him to be surprised on the other side when Wells was describing the trick...


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> I guess it's a good thing that vibrating through a wall let him lose the wrist bomb, but not his suit.


He'd have to change his name to "The Flasher".


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Much better episode than the last one. Enjoyed MH and his ode to Star Wars line, cheesy, sure, but comical and well done by him. 

So did any part of Wells become part of Thawne or is it all an act?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> Much better episode than the last one. Enjoyed MH and his ode to Star Wars line, cheesy, sure, but comical and well done by him.
> 
> So did any part of Wells become part of Thawne or is it all an act?


Mentally he appears to be Thawne. Physically he's Wells, down the the DNA. That explains why "Wells" DNA didn't show up at the Barry's old house, since it would be Thawne's DNA as he hadn't changed yet.


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## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

So, apparently Ebert Thorndike picked up a couple of flash drives from a future store and went all space vampire on Doc Wells. Isn't that actor on Suits or one of those USA shows?

"Axel, I am your father?" I don't get the reference.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Better ratings as well

Last night&#8217;s even more action-packed than usual telecast of THE FLASH sped up 22% week to week in A18-34 (1.1/5) and jumped 27% in M18-34 (1.4/6). THE FLASH also rose 5% in total viewers (3.5M) and remained even in A18-49 (1.2/4).

THE FLASH was the #1 broadcast show for the night in M18-34. It tied for #2 in the 8pm hour in A18-34 and and tied for #3 in A18-49, and also beat Fox in total viewers in the hour.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

So evidently Eobard Thawne gets his villain gadgets from Fringe.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

DavidTigerFan said:


> So evidently Eobard Thawne gets his villain gadgets from Fringe.


Minus the necessity to shove spikes into his soft palate.

How will Barry ever discover the truth about Wells / Thawne unless he's told?


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

I really liked this episode.

I love Mark Hamil as villains. He's made a great Joker, and now the Trickster is turning out to be just as fun! I only have faint memories of him as the Trickster in the original series. I wanted to watch them, but they're not free viewing on Netflix or Amazon, and I don't know if I want to spend money to own the series. I may just buy the ones though with Hamil in them.

The Thawne backstory was nice. It kept us on our toes. When he first took off the mask and it was someone else, that was a surprise. I felt bad for Wells though. He seemed like a cool guy. It makes me wonder how Wells gets the Flash's speed. If he modified his body so it's now effectively Wells', then how does he tap into the Speed Force?

And... I loved that they introduced the Speed Force.

I'm not sure how I feel about Eddie knowing Barry is the Flash. I have to get rid of the notion that secret identities are as sacred as they are in the comics. I wasn't surprised when he showed Henry. It looked like Henry wasn't surprised. And it only took a moment when he stopped running and was out of breath for Henry to get a good look at him. I'm sure a dad would recognize his son even with a mask covering half of his face, so it made sense for Barry to open up.

It's all coming to a head. Barry, Joe, and Eddie are all now in on Wells likely being the Reverse Flash and a killer speedster. Thawne is not stupid and he's sensing that something's off. It's all escalating now and looks like it's going to be a lot of fun.

The coming attractions look awesome!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

RF has been using that tacheylon transfer device thingy that has been featured in previous episodes to tap into the speed force, it's why he apparently has a finite amount of access to it. 

I guess he has always done that, because tonight when he jumped into the past, gideon said he had depleted his speed force. That's why he needs Barry, I suppose.


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## TeddS (Sep 21, 2000)

Is Thawne generating and storing "speed force" by having Barry run on that treadmill all the time? 

I was thinking - would be interesting if there actually was two Barrys created during that time blip a couple of episodes ago. The second Barry would be the one who hadn't yet experienced the day (the other one experienced it twice). The second Barry would hear everything on the ear piece radio between Barry 2 and the home team, and maybe figures out what happened. Then he lies low, letting the second Barry just proceed like he's the only Barry. Except this Barry is hiding out, waiting for the right plot point to pop up and require two Flashes. And then the first Barry dies, because it's just too complicated to have two Barrys running around for long.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I'm calling it. Eddie will be a new reverse flash before the series is over.


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## dimented (May 21, 2003)

The pace of this show amazes me. They really don't leave any questions hanging for long. It almost seems like they don't expect to be renewed for a second season.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

allan said:


> He'd have to change his name to "The Flasher".


The Streak.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

dimented said:


> The pace of this show amazes me. They really don't leave any questions hanging for long. It almost seems like they don't expect to be renewed for a second season.


More like they are dealing with one big story this season: The Reverse Flash. They can do another big story next season.

I dread that the eventual story is going to revert some of the time line to return Wells as a hero. I hope not, actually.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> RF has been using that tacheylon transfer device thingy that has been featured in previous episodes to tap into the speed force, it's why he apparently has a finite amount of access to it.
> 
> I guess he has always done that, because tonight when he jumped into the past, gideon said he had depleted his speed force. That's why he needs Barry, I suppose.


But he was showing superspeed before he stole the tachyon device. It helps him, but there must be more than just that.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

dimented said:


> The pace of this show amazes me. They really don't leave any questions hanging for long. It almost seems like they don't expect to be renewed for a second season.


What I'm hoping for, and what I wish more shows would do, is wrap up their season at the end of the season and not have cliffhangers to try to drag you back next year. I don't mind if they introduce something in the last episode that sets the stage for the next season, but I really hate still having the storyline open and having to wait until fall to see what happens. That said, they've been getting good ratings and I don't think they're worried it won't be renewed next year.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Oh, and I also loved the superspeed fight in Barry's old house.

I wonder what prompts Barry to make the decision to go back in time to fight RF? Does he just decide it's time and he goes back and tries? Or does RF from the future show up, fight him, and then says he's going back in time to kill him? If that's the case, then it makes for a very confusing and inconsistent and illogical timeline. If it's the case of Barry confronting Wells/Thawne and then Wells/Thawne getting pissed and going back in time to kill him, that wouldn't make sense because... well, tons of reasons. Namely that he already knows why it's a bad idea to do that (being trapped). Then again, Thawne is a bit insane, so his reasoning would need to be taken with a grain of salt.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

bobcarn said:


> But he was showing superspeed before he stole the tachyon device. It helps him, but there must be more than just that.


I think he was going to use it as a way to get back to his time - he knows about vibrating / becoming one with the speed force / zen type of thing, maybe he's trying to recreate that artificially.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

He's been able to restore his speed powers, but not reliably.


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

pjenkins said:


> Much better episode than the last one. Enjoyed MH and his ode to Star Wars line, cheesy, sure, but comical and well done by him.
> 
> So did any part of Wells become part of Thawne or is it all an act?





Spoiler



The actor playing Eobard in the flashbacks, Matt Letscher, has said that pieces of the original Wells came through the DNA transfer including the feelings for his late wife.


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## CraigThom (Sep 27, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I'm calling it. Eddie will be a new reverse flash before the series is over.


I've just assumed he is his great^n grandfather, but you never know,


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## oscarfish (Mar 2, 2009)

There was an Amber alert transmission during a segment of this show. The last bit of the show before the Amber alert was Joe and Barry in the prison with the Trickerster (about 20 min into the episode). That part finished normally. Then a few commercials played. Then the Amber alert. When the Amber alert ended, the show started just at the very end of a scene that looked to be Wells and Barry at STAR labs. I got about second of that followed by Wells and his wife on the beach in a flash back.

Could someone please fill me in on what I missed?


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

oscarfish said:


> There was an Amber alert transmission during a segment of this show. The last bit of the show before the Amber alert was Joe and Barry in the prison with the Trickerster (about 20 min into the episode). That part finished normally. Then a few commercials played. Then the Amber alert. When the Amber alert ended, the show started just at the very end of a scene that looked to be Wells and Barry at STAR labs. I got about second of that followed by Wells and his wife on the beach in a flash back.
> 
> Could someone please fill me in on what I missed?


EW's recap: http://www.ew.com/recap/the-flash-season-1-episode-17


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I'm confused. I thought when Joe first started investigating Welles, he found out that Welles had appeared out of nowhere 15 years earlier, whereas this episode shows that Welles had existed before Thawn came along.

Am I misremembering?


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## oscarfish (Mar 2, 2009)

I was just reading another thread that had a "Thanks" button available in each posting. This thread doesn't. I couldn't exactly figure out what I missed from the ew.com article, but I get the general idea and there was a lot of other good stuff in there that I would have use the Thanks button if it existed.

I am so glad we seem to be over the villain-of-the-week phase of this season and moved onto the overall story part. The last few episode have been great and it looks like the next few will be too.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Shakhari said:


> I'm confused. I thought when Joe first started investigating Welles, he found out that Welles had appeared out of nowhere 15 years earlier, whereas this episode shows that Welles had existed before Thawn came along.
> 
> Am I misremembering?


No, I remember that too. I think Wells may have been in another country, or somewhere else. Either that or Thawne removed all trace of him before that time.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Or it could be simple misdirection...what Joe meant was that he was expecting Jobs/Gates/Bezos-level trails of Welles through society leading up to his big break, but since (as we now know) Thawne jump-started his career decades early, those footprints didn't exist. We just jumped to the wrong conclusion of what he meant because we'd been conditioned to think Welles himself had come from the future.

In other words, Joe said Welles was a figurative nobody until 15 years ago, but we assumed he meant a literal nobody.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BTW, I rewatched the scenes of the Trickster(s) at the Mayor's ball and I saw something that I missed earlier.

When the Flash rushes in and grabs Jesse, demanding to know where Henry Allen is, they showed of shot of Iris reacting to that.

Then later, when Flash addressed the crowd telling them he had given them the antidote, he didn't use his altered voice.

Are they setting up Iris putting together who the Flash is?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

JYoung said:


> BTW, I rewatched the scenes of the Trickster(s) at the Mayor's ball and I saw something that I missed earlier. When the Flash rushes in and grabs Jesse, demanding to know where Henry Allen is, they showed of shot of Iris reacting to that. Then later, when Flash addressed the crowd telling them he had given them the antidote, he didn't use his altered voice. Are they setting up Iris putting together who the Flash is?


I hope so. Lois Lane should be the only reporter dumb enough to not figure out a secret identity.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> "I am your father."
> 
> Worth the whole episode.


I laughed a lot, while walking on the treadmill.. though I think Carrie Fisher saying "Help me, Liz Lemon, you're my only hope" on "30 Rock" may have been better..

BTW, The Trickster seems to me to basically be a combination of The Riddler and The Joker. They don't even have the excuse of this being the "Marvel version" of the villain.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

morac said:


> Good episode. I like how they showed photos from the 90's Flash series episode where Hamill played the Trickster and basically kept the same back story for him (minus the Flash catching him part of course).


I knew he was on the previous show, I didn't realize they used a photo from that version.. AND I know that the actor playing the father played Flash on that one..

It would be cool if they somehow did a time travel/alternate universe thing to connect the two series.. (No, I can't really think of even a _bad_ explanation, but hey, it's comics books with alternate universes and such...)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mattack said:


> BTW, The Trickster seems to me to basically be a combination of The Riddler and The Joker. They don't even have the excuse of this being the "Marvel version" of the villain.


Riddler and Joker are Batman villains. Trickster is a Flash villain.

Completely different.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

This is the Trickster in the original Flash comics (drawn by the great Carmine Infantino).










And this is John Wesley Shipp as the Flash and Mark Hamill as the Trickster in the 1990s Flash TV show.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The Trickster in that ^ picture looks like Cyndi Lauper's brother.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mattack said:


> I laughed a lot, while walking on the treadmill.. though I think Carrie Fisher saying "Help me, Liz Lemon, you're my only hope" on "30 Rock" may have been better.. BTW, The Trickster seems to me to basically be a combination of The Riddler and The Joker. They don't even have the excuse of this being the "Marvel version" of the villain.


There was a lot of reuse of concepts within the comics historically. For example, the Green Arrow is a step by step take on Batman.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Ereth said:


> This is the Trickster in the original Flash comics (drawn by the great Carmine Infantino).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That Flash costume from the old TV show was the best comic book costume of its day. It blew away Keaton's Batman cowl (The Flash could actually turn his head!) and was better than the plain spandex that Christopher Reeve wore.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

John Wesely Shipp may not agree with you. He did not like the costume. It was rubber, it couldn't be dry cleaned, and he sweat continuously. He has said he argued that the Flash should be lean, not muscular, since his superpower was running. He likes the Justin Grant costume better.


I liked the Flash costume, but I was kind of annoyed that they felt the need to build in muscles.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Ereth said:


> John Wesely Shipp may not agree with you. He did not like the costume. It was rubber, it couldn't be dry cleaned, and he sweat continuously. He has said he argued that the Flash should be lean, not muscular, since his superpower was running. He likes the Justin Grant costume better.
> 
> I liked the Flash costume, but I was kind of annoyed that they felt the need to build in muscles.


I agree, but after seeing the Flash costume, you had to wonder why they made Batman act without being able to turn his head. Even in the modern movies they couldn't get it right from the start.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> I hope so. Lois Lane should be the only reporter dumb enough to not figure out a secret identity.


Well, a mask does work better than a pair of glasses.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Well, a mask does work better than a pair of glasses.


Only when you vibrate really fast, it appears.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

"I've known you since we were kids. Did you think I wouldn't recognize you because I couldn't see your cheek bones?" - Carol Ferris, one of my favorite lines in the Green Lantern movie.


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

I loved this episode. It was great seeing Shipp and Hamill interact again, and I have to wonder just how long Hamill has been waiting to use that line on screen, even if it was a bit fanboyish.

I'm liking the series in general and can't wait to see how the season ends.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Craigbob said:


> I loved this episode. It was great seeing Shipp and Hamill interact again, and I have to wonder just how long Hamill has been waiting to use that line on screen, even if it was a bit fanboyish.


It's not the first time he's used it. He said it on an episode of Mad TV (5:50 below).


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Interesting that he also used the "Cut off your head and throw it right in your face" in that skit as well.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

morac said:


> It's not the first time he's used it. He said it on an episode of Mad TV (5:50 below).


I'm sure he would say it for anybody who paid him, and probably for free. He seems to be a big ol' geek at heart which a pretty good sense of humor about his role in geek history (which is part of his charm, at least for me).


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## CraigThom (Sep 27, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm sure he would say it for anybody who paid him, and probably for free. He seems to be a big ol' geek at heart which a pretty good sense of humor about his role in geek history (which is part of his charm, at least for me).


For a specific audience being the favorite voice of the Joker is almost as big a deal as being Luke.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

CraigThom said:


> For a specific audience being the favorite voice of the Joker is almost as big a deal as being Luke.


Which is certainly a part of his role in geek history, as his his part on The Flash. It's something he seems always to have been very aware and proud of.


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## SteveD (Oct 22, 2002)

So what specific audience are we talking about here?


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> I hope so. Lois Lane should be the only reporter dumb enough to not figure out a secret identity.


With the new movie franchise, she was the first to figure it out.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Ereth said:


> ...
> I liked the Flash costume, but I was kind of annoyed that they felt the need to build in muscles.


Ditto.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Ereth said:


> "I've known you since we were kids. Did you think I wouldn't recognize you because I couldn't see your cheek bones?" - Carol Ferris, one of my favorite lines in the Green Lantern movie.


I loved that scene. It's probably my favorite from the movie.



JYoung said:


> Well, a mask does work better than a pair of glasses.


You would think. But as much as Superman Returns gets dissed, Brandon Routh made Superman and Clark seem like different characters. There's a scene where Lois and her boyfriend/husband/whatever are together, and he's looking at Clark and starting to wonder. He questions Lois with "How tall is Clark? How much does he weigh?" Clark, hearing it, just turns and gives them a dorky smile and wave when he sees them looking at him, and the illusion was perfect. It's ridiculous to think he's Superman.

It's not that people don't see a physical resemblance, it's that they see it as _only_ a physical resemblance.

During Darkest Night, Barry was telling Hal Jordan he's surprised Hal doesn't do more to protect his identity (Hal only wears a small diamond mask). Hal points out that Clark only wears glasses, but Barry replies "Yeah, but he also hunches and raises his voice an octave". I've always contended that most people don't need to worry about huge masks since unless you're famous, most people wouldn't recognize you. In a Justice League cartoon, Lex Luthor possessed Flash's body and took the opportunity to remove his mask in front of a mirror. He looked for a moment and said "I have no idea who this is."


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

bobcarn said:


> I loved that scene. It's probably my favorite from the movie.
> 
> You would think. But as much as Superman Returns gets dissed, Brandon Routh made Superman and Clark seem like different characters. There's a scene where Lois and her boyfriend/husband/whatever are together, and he's looking at Clark and starting to wonder. He questions Lois with "How tall is Clark? How much does he weigh?" Clark, hearing it, just turns and gives them a dorky smile and wave when he sees them looking at him, and the illusion was perfect. It's ridiculous to think he's Superman.
> 
> ...


There's a classic Carmine Infantino Flash that inspired that. The Rogues have captured the Flash. They remove his mask and don't have the first clue who he is. He's just a police forensic scientist after all, in a major city. He's never been on TV or anything, the odds of any particular person ever having seen his face are pretty low.

(And I hope I'm right. Now I'm second guessing myself and wondering if that was after Carmine left, but I think it's Infantino!)


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Ereth said:


> There's a classic Carmine Infantino Flash that inspired that. The Rogues have captured the Flash. They remove his mask and don't have the first clue who he is. He's just a police forensic scientist after all, in a major city. He's never been on TV or anything, the odds of any particular person ever having seen his face are pretty low.
> 
> (And I hope I'm right. Now I'm second guessing myself and wondering if that was after Carmine left, but I think it's Infantino!)


I think you're confusing the issue some.

I read this when it first came out and in The Flash (Volume 1) #266, Heat Wave manages to knock out The Flash and unmask him.

Of course, he doesn't recognize Barry Allen.

Drawn by Irv Novick and inked by Frank McLaughin.
Cover attributed to Rich Buckler and Dick Giordano.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

JYoung said:


> I think you're confusing the issue some.
> 
> I read this when it first came out and in The Flash (Volume 1) #266, Heat Wave manages to knock out The Flash and unmask him.
> 
> ...


Entirely possible, though the scene I remember had more than just Heat Wave in it. It could easily be Irv Novick, I probably read his entire run, so it'd be easy for that to be in my head.

I just wish the index in my head still worked. I miss that!


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Philosofy said:


> I agree, but after seeing the Flash costume, you had to wonder why they made Batman act without being able to turn his head. Even in the modern movies they couldn't get it right from the start.


I think in The Dark Knight, Bruce gives Lucius some remarks about the suit, and Lucius said "you want to be able to turn your head?"

So they did at least acknowledge that it was a problem.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

dang....I really don't like time travel story lines at all.


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## CraigThom (Sep 27, 2002)

pmyers said:


> dang....I really don't like time travel story lines at all.


Then maybe a show about the Flash isn't for you, at least one after Flashpoint and the New 52.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

I thought it was interesting Hamill used his Joker voice for the Trickster. The only thing he didn't do, by just a hair, was the maniacal Joker laugh. He even did the Joker smile as much as he could without makeup/CG.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> I thought it was interesting Hamill used his Joker voice for the Trickster. The only thing he didn't do, by just a hair, was the maniacal Joker laugh. He even did the Joker smile as much as he could without makeup/CG.


You should go back and listen to Hamill's Joker and then listen to him doing Trickster from this ep. Nothing alike. I couldn't even tell he did the Joker in Batman. I was really surprised to learn it was Hamill. In this ep it was pretty much his normal voice.

Hamill is a very accomplished VO actor.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

More, you should go back and see the Trickster episodes from BEFORE he was the Joker. If you want to say they are similar, then you would argue that he used his Trickster voice for the Joker.

But I think they are plenty different. Just both are maniacal.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Ereth said:


> More, you should go back and see the Trickster episodes from BEFORE he was the Joker. If you want to say they are similar, then you would argue that he used his Trickster voice for the Joker.
> 
> But I think they are plenty different. Just both are maniacal.


I'm a crazed Arkham player having to finish each one before doing the next. I've died so many times with the Joker standing over me my wife started harassing me to being so bad at the game. She really can't stand Harley either.

At any rate Hamill's trickster voice sounded very similar to his joker voice. I DO need to go back and listen to his original Trickster voice. I think when that show aired I either missed it or didn't realize it was Hamill playing the part.


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## CraigThom (Sep 27, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> I'm a crazed Arkham player having to finish each one before doing the next. I've died so many times with the Joker standing over me my wife started harassing me to being so bad at the game. She really can't stand Harley either.
> 
> At any rate Hamill's trickster voice sounded very similar to his joker voice. I DO need to go back and listen to his original Trickster voice. I think when that show aired I either missed it or didn't realize it was Hamill playing the part.


By "finish" do you mean complete the story or get 100% plus all the achievements? I've done the latter for the first two, but I dislike the gameplay of Origins, so I stopped after finishing the story and the side missions. The power/freeze gloves feel like a cheat they tacked on because they couldn't get the combat right.

Anyway, the Trixter and the Joker sound similar to me but just enough to tell the same person is doing them, which is true.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

CraigThom said:


> By "finish" do you mean complete the story or get 100% plus all the achievements? I've done the latter for the first two, but I dislike the gameplay of Origins, so I stopped after finishing the story and the side missions. The power/freeze gloves feel like a cheat they tacked on because they couldn't get the combat right.
> 
> Anyway, the Trixter and the Joker sound similar to me but just enough to tell the same person is doing them, which is true.


I finish the story as much as I can with a used game, then I go back and try to do the other story lines. I always get stuck on those Riddler clues. This last one I was able to disable his lair, but getting to some of the clues has been tedious so I'm dragging my feet on it. If a new game is released before I finish that I"ll likely ditch my attempt.


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## AeneaGames (May 2, 2009)

Stormspace said:


> I finish the story as much as I can with a used game, then I go back and try to do the other story lines. I always get stuck on those Riddler clues. This last one I was able to disable his lair, but getting to some of the clues has been tedious so I'm dragging my feet on it. If a new game is released before I finish that I"ll likely ditch my attempt.


June will see the release of Arkham Knight


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or it could be simple misdirection...what Joe meant was that he was expecting Jobs/Gates/Bezos-level trails of Welles through society leading up to his big break, but since (as we now know) Thawne jump-started his career decades early, those footprints didn't exist. We just jumped to the wrong conclusion of what he meant because we'd been conditioned to think Welles himself had come from the future.
> 
> In other words, Joe said Welles was a figurative nobody until 15 years ago, but we assumed he meant a literal nobody.


i've been marathoning this series catching up during the last week or so, so this is fresher in my head.

Joe was saying that Wells wasn't in _Central City_ before 15 years ago. He wasn't saying that he appeared out of nowhere in this planet.

oh, and i'm really liking it! kind of annoying to have some of the CW stuff like the love-angst being in there all the time, but overall, i'm enjoying it!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

But I seem to recall some puzzlement over how somebody as insignificant as the Welles of 15 years ago suddenly became the Welles of today...

I didn't mean there was no trace of hm, just not the kinds of traces you would expect from such a major figure.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But I seem to recall some puzzlement over how somebody as insignificant as the Welles of 15 years ago suddenly became the Welles of today...
> 
> I didn't mean there was no trace of hm, just not the kinds of traces you would expect from such a major figure.


well, if i understood it correctly, he wasn't famous before then. STAR labs wasn't created yet, right? At that point, he was just an up and coming scientist in Starling City. Then he created STAR labs and started building the particle accelerator, which got him more recognition. That's how i'm taking it...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

milo99 said:


> well, if i understood it correctly, he wasn't famous before then. STAR labs wasn't created yet, right? At that point, he was just an up and coming scientist in Starling City. Then he created STAR labs and started building the particle accelerator, which got him more recognition. That's how i'm taking it...


Right, but there was no indication that he was the kind of guy who could accomplish that much that quickly (in his timeline, it took him much, much longer to get there, which is what Thawne was trying to circumvent). So he came out of nowhere in that respect.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Right, but there was no indication that he was the kind of guy who could accomplish that much that quickly (in his timeline, it took him much, much longer to get there, which is what Thawne was trying to circumvent). So he came out of nowhere in that respect.


ah, ok, i see what you're saying.

When watching, I didn't think that that's what Joe was saying/asking. I took it as he was asking in terms of who he was to Central City, about what brought him to CC, which is why Wells gave the Tess Morgan "answer", and Joe assumed it was that he came here to start fresh, which abated him.. for a while.

But i can see how the scene could be interpreted either way now that you've further explained. Although, i don't know if Joe would necessarily be in tune with celebrity of scientists to think along those lines... but of course the counter to that is that Barry would have, and thus some of that would have rubbed off on Joe.


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